# D-Total: a single die for d3,d4,d6,d8,d12,d24



## Zander (Sep 12, 2008)

I have invented a die that combines the functions of a d3, d4, d6, d8, d12 and d24. With some re-rolls, you can also use it as a d5, d7, d10 and d20. It is made by Gamescience.

The die was first sold at Gen Con Indy last month. I understand they sold out and that more are being produced. 

For the record, I don't get a commission or royalties. This post is a shameless plug but not a commercial one.

A pic of the die and instructions can be found here: http://www.dicecollector.com/D24_ALEXANDER_SIMKIN_GAMESCIENCE_D_TOTAL_01.jpg


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## greatamericanfolkher (Sep 12, 2008)

I saw this die at GenCon last month, and were it not for the fact that I had already spent about $100 on dice that convention already I would have gotten one. My only complaint about is it feels too light for a die its size.


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## Obryn (Sep 12, 2008)

Man, I was so excited...  But it's basically just a d24 that does math for you in advance, right?

Lou Zocchi is awesome, I love my Gamescience dice, and I would try save them if my house were on fire, but I'd rather not roll any die where I need to re-roll some results.  It's like selling a d8 as a combination d7/d8 ("Just re-roll when you get an 8!").

-O


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## Umbran (Sep 12, 2008)

Zander said:


> A pic of the die and instructions can be found here:




Instructions?  Dice need instructions now?


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## Achan hiArusa (Sep 12, 2008)

It looks a little ambitious.  Though using a d24 for a d4, d6, d8, and d12 is a bit of genius and I'd be more interested if they had just stuck to that.  But then again, if I see I will probably snag it.  I'm weak that way.


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## Zander (Sep 12, 2008)

greatamericanfolkher said:


> I saw this die at GenCon last month, and were it not for the fact that I had already spent about $100 on dice that convention already I would have gotten one. My only complaint about is it feels too light for a die its size.




I didn't design it that way - that's just how Lou Zocchi makes them. But I happen to believe that its light weight is a plus. I have tons of stuff to take to my D&D game and I'm grateful for anything that cuts down the weight without sacrificing functionality.



Obryn said:


> Man, I was so excited... But it's basically just a d24 that does math for you in advance, right?




Yes. I wanted to design it so it also orders pizza for you and washes your laundry but I couldn't quite figure out how. 



Obryn said:


> Lou Zocchi is awesome, I love my Gamescience dice, and I would try save them if my house were on fire, but I'd rather not roll any die where I need to re-roll some results.




You only need to re-roll on occasions for d5, d7, d10 and d20. D&D doesn't use d5 or d7, so you're left with d10 and d20. If re-rolling bothers you, you can always use a conventional d20 for d10 and d20 rolls, and use a D-Total for everything else.



Umbran said:


> Instructions? Dice need instructions now?




D&D dice always have. Most people needed to be told how to read the old-style d4s with the numbers running along the bottom edge. And most folks needed instruction on how to combine two d10 rolls to roll d100. The old dice sets may not have come with instructions but that's only because there was someone to show you. The D-Total is as easy to use as most conventional dice. I've shown people how to read it and they got it instantly. It's really very simple once you know how.


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## El Mahdi (Sep 12, 2008)

Umbran said:


> Instructions? Dice need instructions now?




That one even looks like it might need a slide rule!


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 12, 2008)

This looks really cool.


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## KB9JMQ (Sep 12, 2008)

Pretty neat.
Might have to snag one.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 12, 2008)

Zander said:


> You only need to re-roll on occasions for d5, d7, d10 and d20.




I think that's the clincher for me. I wouldn't mind rerolling, except I'm rerolling on the most common roll I make in dnd.

Its a brilliant idea, I hope it sells well, but its not for me.


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## El Mahdi (Sep 12, 2008)

Zander said:


> . . . D&D dice always have. Most people needed to be told how to read the old-style d4s with the numbers running along the bottom edge. And most folks needed instruction on how to combine two d10 rolls to roll d100. The old dice sets may not have come with instructions but that's only because there was someone to show you. The D-Total is as easy to use as most conventional dice. I've shown people how to read it and they got it instantly. It's really very simple once you know how.




Personally, I never needed anyone to show me how to use dice, and I've never met anyone else who did (even newbies to the game), although I'm sure there have been those who did need to be shown.  However, I suspect that statement was meant as sarcastic humor.  Those dice do look like some kind of _"computational device",_ or rune laden objects of divination, rather than just polyhedral dice.


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## Heselbine (Sep 12, 2008)

Just to say I felt honoured to be DMing when you first rolled this at GenCon UK!!!


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## Lord Xtheth (Sep 13, 2008)

Ok, I know this is a little off-topic, but it's realy starting to bother me; What game uses the D5 and D7? Also, why are THOSE dice so important to be included on this die?


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## RFisher (Sep 13, 2008)

This is exactly the opposite of what we need. Apply your talents to creating reasons for me to add _more_ dice to my bag rather than consolidating.

(^_^)

Seriously, though, I’ll have to pick up some of these.


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## mach1.9pants (Sep 13, 2008)

Hey could you do even more plugging and possibly tell me where I could get these online..that ships to sunny NZ?


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## Obryn (Sep 13, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> I think that's the clincher for me. I wouldn't mind rerolling, except I'm rerolling on the most common roll I make in dnd.
> 
> Its a brilliant idea, I hope it sells well, but its not for me.



Yep, I'd find some use for one based off a d20 - it's at least a common die.  It's not as evenly divisible, though.

Still, it could work very well for d4, d10, and d5 if you cared to have an omni-die.

d6 simulation would only require a re-roll 10% of the time.  d8 gets messy, needing re-rolls 20% of the time.  And d12... well, forget it.

-O


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## Nifft (Sep 13, 2008)

They should base it on a *d60*.

You shouldn't have to re-roll to get a valid d20 result -- optimizing to accommodate a d12 at the expense of the d20 is just crazy. People can go their whole lives without ever needing a d12.

Cheers, -- N


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## RFisher (Sep 14, 2008)

Nifft said:


> They should base it on a *d60*.
> 
> You shouldn't have to re-roll to get a valid d20 result -- optimizing to accommodate a d12 at the expense of the d20 is just crazy. People can go their whole lives without ever needing a d12.




Having a bag full of half d20s (to cover d20 & d10) and half these (to cover d4, d6, d8, d12) seems good enough to me. Consolidation gets the most bang when going after the lesser used bits.


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## Zander (Sep 14, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> Personally, I never needed anyone to show me how to use dice...




Great! You'll have no trouble at all using the D-Total. 



Heselbine said:


> Just to say I felt honoured to be DMing when you first rolled this at GenCon UK!!!




It was a really cool game you ran. I'm glad I got to use it for the first time at my first Living FR game. 

I have to say though, that because it was available in the US for a few weeks before I received it myself, it's likely to have been used in the US before I got to roll it in your game in the UK.



Lord Xtheth said:


> Ok, I know this is a little off-topic, but it's realy starting to bother me; What game uses the D5 and D7? Also, why are THOSE dice so important to be included on this die?




None that I know of. Lou Zocchi of Gamescience just thought it would be fun to add them. He has compiled tables for d5 and d7 uses if you're interested.



mach1.9pants said:


> Hey could you do even more plugging and possibly tell me where I could get these online..that ships to sunny NZ?




Snail mail or call Lou Zocchi of Gamescience: DiceCollector.com - Gamescience Temporary Website I'm not sure if the e-mail and site details are current but I know the postal and phone ones are. I'm pretty sure he ships anywhere that has a reasonable postal service including NZ.


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## Zander (Sep 14, 2008)

Nifft said:


> They should base it on a *d60*.
> 
> You shouldn't have to re-roll to get a valid d20 result -- optimizing to accommodate a d12 at the expense of the d20 is just crazy. People can go their whole lives without ever needing a d12.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




I thought about that but...

1) the mould for creating the d24 already existed which saved hugely on cost,

2) a 60-sided die could be used for d3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20 and 30 without re-rolls but you would need to re-roll it for d8, and

3) it would have to be pretty big to be readable - probably bigger than is practical for most gaming tables.

If size and cost were not issues, the best shape would be d120. It accommodates all the ranges used in D&D, i.e. d4 to d20, without re-rolls. You'd only need to roll it twice for d100 (or re-roll it roughly 16% of the time).


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## Glyfair (Sep 14, 2008)

Lord Xtheth said:


> Ok, I know this is a little off-topic, but it's realy starting to bother me; What game uses the D5 and D7? Also, why are THOSE dice so important to be included on this die?



The old _Superworld_ RPG (based on Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying) allowed characters to build their powers to use any die.  I would occasionaly create character's that used a d7 or d11 just to do it (and see the look on the player's face who ended up with the character).


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## El Mahdi (Sep 14, 2008)

Zander said:


> Great! You'll have no trouble at all using the D-Total. . .




Yep.  Doesn't take any instruction to _*not*_ use it, which is exactly what I'll be doing.


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## Zander (Sep 14, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> Personally, I never needed anyone to show me how to use dice, and I've never met anyone else who did (even newbies to the game)... However, I suspect that statement was meant as sarcastic humor.




Nope. Official instructions how to read a d4 from 1981: http://www.dicecollector.com/MINT16_TSR_DRAGON_DICE_RED_01.jpg


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## El Mahdi (Sep 14, 2008)

Man was _that_ a humorous blast from the past.  I'm just afraid of what's next for the future.  Maybe a _"Polyhedral Dice for Dummies"_ book?


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## Jhaelen (Sep 15, 2008)

Hmm, the thing that I'd worry about is that a d24 isn't a platonic shape. It's something I dislike about the d10, as well. I prefer using a d20 as a d10 for that reason.

I'm also unsure about the advantage of such a die. Is it the 'coolness-factor'?


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 16, 2008)

Gah.  I encountered one of these at GenCon, and halfway through the game, I wanted to throw it across the room.

"So, my first attack is... [clatter] ... oops, 21... [clatter] ... wait, 24... [clatter] ... okay, a 17.  That hits?  Okay, so 1d8 + 2d6 + 2 damage.  That's... [clatter] ... 6, and ... [clatter] ... 4, and ... [clatter] ... 2, plus 2 is 14 damage.  Now, my second attack... [clatter] ..."

The d20 never needs a reroll.  With your d8 and your 2d6, you can roll all your damage at once!

If you were trapped on a desert island with only one die?  Sure, sign me up!  But in any other situation, I really can't see the advantage... and if someone insists on using a single dTotal to replace every other die they use, it really slows things down.  Annoyingly so.

If he'd had three or four in different colours, it might have been fine.  Always roll the black dTotal and the white dTotal for a d20 - if the black die shows a 21-24, take the result of the white.  For damage, the black is a d8, and the white and green are d6s.

... but if you're carting around three or four dTotals, why not just have a set of dice?

-Hyp.


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## Zander (Sep 16, 2008)

Jhaelen said:


> Hmm, the thing that I'd worry about is that a d24 isn't a platonic shape. It's something I dislike about the d10, as well. I prefer using a d20 as a d10 for that reason.




A die needn't have faces that are the same and angles bewtween them the same to be fair. The D-Total (and a conventional d10) has faces that are the same and angles that are too. So there isn't any problem at all about fairness. With regards to d10s, I believe this has been demonstrated empirically.



Jhaelen said:


> I'm also unsure about the advantage of such a die. Is it the 'coolness-factor'?




Among other things. It also means that you don't need to worry misplacing or forgetting a particular die from a set - if you have a D-Total, you can play D&D.



Hypersmurf said:


> Gah. I encountered one of these at GenCon, and halfway through the game, I wanted to throw it across the room.




I've been using one successfully since UK Gen Con. The usual response from other players is: "Oooh! What's that?... Cool!" 



Hypersmurf said:


> If he'd had three or four in different colours, it might have been fine. Always roll the black dTotal and the white dTotal for a d20 - if the black die shows a 21-24, take the result of the white. For damage, the black is a d8, and the white and green are d6s.




There are tentative plans to produce the D-Total in other colours.



Hypersmurf said:


> ... but if you're carting around three or four dTotals, why not just have a set of dice?




Three or four D-Totals are not the equivalent of _a set_ of dice; they're the equivalent of several sets of dice.


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## El Mahdi (Sep 16, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:


> Gah. I encountered one of these at GenCon, and halfway through the game, I wanted to throw it across the room.






Zander said:


> I've been using one successfully since UK Gen Con. The usual response from other players is: "Oooh! What's that?... Cool!"




But obviously not the response of this player and potential customer!  I've always felt that if a product is good, it will sell itself.  If it requires a forceful sales pitch, or an almost antagonistic response towards naysayers, in order to win over customers, then it's definitely not the product for me.  If a salesperson or product designer is able to face criticism of their product, and good natured joking about their product, with a certain amount of humour and humility, that goes a long way towards winning me over.  The opposite however just  me off.  In fact, at that point it becomes a product I'd even go out of my way to ridicule, criticize, and bash to any gamers I know, or with any gamers who happen to bring this product up in conversation.

But hey, that's just me.



P.S.: The above quotes aren't the only instances in this thread of what I was talking about in this post, just the latest example.


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## RFisher (Sep 16, 2008)

Zander said:


> A die needn't have faces that are the same and angles bewtween them the same to be fair.




Well, he didn’t claim it couldn’t be fair, he just said it wasn’t Platonic. It is possible to recognize that they can be fair and still _prefer_ Platonics.


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## Dausuul (Sep 16, 2008)

In 3E, I was seriously thinking about creating a single die that would be the statistical equivalent of rolling 5d6 or 10d6, just to speed up play at the higher levels.  However, 4E has made that mostly moot, since I don't think you ever roll more than 7 dice.


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## Nifft (Sep 17, 2008)

Hypersmurf said:


> Gah.  I encountered one of these at GenCon, and halfway through the game, I wanted to throw it across the room.
> 
> "So, my first attack is... [clatter] ... oops, 21... [clatter] ... wait, 24... [clatter] ... okay, a 17.  That hits?  Okay, so 1d8 + 2d6 + 2 damage.  That's... [clatter] ... 6, and ... [clatter] ... 4, and ... [clatter] ... 2, plus 2 is 14 damage.  Now, my second attack... [clatter] ..."



 Yeah, this is exactly what I'd want to avoid.

Still, being able to use d24s for d24 (yeah right), d12, d8, d6, d4 and d3 would be valuable. Then the d20s could pull duty as d20, d10 and d5. You're down to two dice, which is better than ten. (Also, I don't get why the rule for d2 isn't just "odd = 1, even = 2", which is easier to remember and generalizes across almost any die you happen to roll.)

Cheers, -- N


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## nerfherder (Sep 17, 2008)

Zander said:


> I've been using one successfully since UK Gen Con. The usual response from other players is: "Oooh! What's that?... Cool!"



I had the same experience as Hypersmurf at Gencon in a couple of D20 games.  After the initial "ooh, cool, how does that work?" reaction, during the games it just took too long to get to the final result.


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## grodog (Sep 18, 2008)

Hi Zander---

Thanks for posting the pic, since I just ordered a dTotal from Lou last week.  I'm also curious about your dice inventing desire:  what made you want to build this die, and why this way (or was the physical design Lou's work)?  Did you patent the die?  Have you designed other dice?  

Inquiring minds want to know!


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## RFisher (Sep 18, 2008)

Nifft said:


> Still, being able to use d24s for d24 (yeah right), d12, d8, d6, d4 and d3 would be valuable. Then the d20s could pull duty as d20, d10 and d5. You're down to two dice, which is better than ten.




Two die _types_. Having one set of 4 dice (e.g.) being able to work seamlessly as 4d8, 4d6, or 4d4 means 4 dice covering the work of 12.

(Which I think is what you meant, but which I wanted to try to make more explicit.)


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## grodog (Sep 25, 2008)

Bump?


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## Nifft (Sep 25, 2008)

RFisher said:


> Two die _types_. Having one set of 4 dice (e.g.) being able to work seamlessly as 4d8, 4d6, or 4d4 means 4 dice covering the work of 12.
> 
> (Which I think is what you meant, but which I wanted to try to make more explicit.)



 My inner nit-picky bastard gives you the thumbs up, while my more normal-seeming exterior glowers at being nit-picked.

(Yeah, that's exactly what I'd meant.)

Cheers, -- N


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