# scrying someone who may be dead



## Bad Paper (Jun 9, 2005)

I'm going to scry someone who may be dead or may be raised.  If the spell fails, can I tell if it was because of an illegal target or whether the person saved against it?


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## Jack Simth (Jun 9, 2005)

Bad Paper said:
			
		

> I'm going to scry someone who may be dead or may be raised. If the spell fails, can I tell if it was because of an illegal target or whether the person saved against it?



Depends on what counts as him.  If it's the character's soul, rather than the character's body, you will see him dead or alive; if he's dead, his soul is not on the prime Material Plane (unless he is a ghost or something, which should be pretty obvious - otherwise, he is likely on his alignment plane or his diety's plane) and he shows up there (unless he makes his will save).  If he is alive, his soul and body are in the same place (most likely the Material Plane), and it should be pretty obvious that he is living.  Exceptions for well-disguised undead, or people visiting other planes, of course.  Scrying works across planar boundaries, but the target gets a +5 bonus on the will save for that particular situation.


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## dcollins (Jun 9, 2005)

I really don't think that the _scrying_ spell is intended to view dead souls in the afterlife. (A "soul" is not a "creature".) Personally, I think I'd allow the _scrying_ spell to view the dead body in question.


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## Jack Simth (Jun 9, 2005)

Depends on (among other things) Death in the campain - one option listed in the Manual of the Planes (3.0 version, at least) is that the dead become petitioners - and thusly are still creatures (if in a different form).


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## atom crash (Jun 9, 2005)

My group has interpreted the spell to allow the caster to know if the spell failed because the subject was dead. In those cases, all we get is a "blank screen" in a color associated with the target's alignment -- gold for good, red for neutral and black for evil.

However, I'm not sure if there's any explicit RAW answer to this.


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## Starglim (Jun 9, 2005)

Bad Paper said:
			
		

> I'm going to scry someone who may be dead or may be raised.  If the spell fails, can I tell if it was because of an illegal target or whether the person saved against it?




The target of _scrying_ is a magical sensor that can (but sometimes fails to) give you sight and hearing of a creature.

Firstly, a dead person is a creature that has the dead condition, so it's a legal thing to scry. Nothing in the spell excludes a creature that happens to be dead. You would scry the dead body and its (probably dark and cramped) surroundings. The DM might rule that a dead creature automatically fails a Will save, is immune to anything requiring a Will save, or has a Will save but no Wisdom score - it's a grey area to say the least.

Secondly, even if you try to scry a creature to which you have no connection or that does not exist, the spell still has a valid target, the sensor. The sensor cannot succeed in its scrying and automatically fails. I'd say it reacts exactly as if there actually was a scrying target that made its Will save, just because the wizard should not be allowed to gain information by deliberately naming a series of targets that may or may not exist.


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## glass (Jun 9, 2005)

Starglim said:
			
		

> Firstly, a dead person is a creature that has the dead condition, so it's a legal thing to scry. Nothing in the spell excludes a creature that happens to be dead. You would scry the dead body and its (probably dark and cramped) surroundings. The DM might rule that a dead creature automatically fails a Will save, is immune to anything requiring a Will save, or has a Will save but no Wisdom score - it's a grey area to say the least.




Except that for most puposes, a dead creature is an object, not a creature.


glass.


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## Infiniti2000 (Jun 9, 2005)

As glass points out, a corpse is an object, not a creature and thus not a legal target for a scry.  Your spell would fail and you would know that.  You also know when your spell fails due to someone saving against it.  So, if you scry someone you will know if they are alive or dead, if you make the assumption that the spell failing means they are dead (note that they could be within a private sanctum, protected by a mind blank, or other means of blocking a scry).

Just a word of caution, that if you allow scry to work on objects you are significantly improved the power of the spell.  If a metaphysical lean towards the definition of creature works in your campaign, go for it.  It sounds kinda neat to me, but per the core rules it would not work.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Jun 9, 2005)

I was looking at this the other day and I came to the same conclusion regarding a dead person being an object, which is not a legal target (creature) for the _scry_ spell.


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## yennico (Jun 9, 2005)

If the person who you want to scry is dead IMHO you see nothing. Seeing nothing does not mean the person is dead the person can be protected against scrying.


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## Bad Paper (Jun 9, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> if you scry someone you will know if they are alive or dead, if you make the assumption that the spell failing means they are dead




Can you clarify this?  Not being bitchy, just a little eager.  I am *not* making the assumption that failure = death.  When this person was alive he probably had a Will save of about maybe +10, maybe higher.  The DC for my scry in this particular instance is 20.  I shoulda taken his ear as a trophy; then the DC would be 24.

The scry failed.  Seven days in a row.  The DM and I both do not know whether my PC would know the reason for failure.  Naturally, he can Rule 0 this, but since he is my DM and I am his DM we strive for rules consistency.  And, of course, I can drop the same situation on him.


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## AuraSeer (Jun 9, 2005)

Your character does not know whether the target saved. Here's the text from the Magic Overview section of the SRD, under the Saving Throws heading:


> Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. *You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.*



I've bolded the important part. _Scry_ is an effect spell, so you do not know whether the subject saved or not.

If you want to know whether the opponent is alive, try casting _nightmare_. It has unlimited range just like _scry_ does, but since it's a targeted spell you will know if the target saves against it.


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## Nail (Jun 9, 2005)

True, Auraseer, but that's not actually the important bit.

If you scry someone, there are three possible effects:
The person makes his save: since he makes his save, your spell can't scry him.
The person fails his save: since he failed, your spell does scry him.
The person is dead: the person is actually an object, so your spell can't target him.
I think it's reasonable to assume that a caster can determine if his spell is castable (that is, it can target something).  (YMMV, obviously.)  Note that not being able to target something is not at all the same as having the spell cast, then having the target make its save.  

A fun gray area, to be sure!


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## Scharlata (Jun 9, 2005)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> Your character does not know whether the target saved. Here's the text from the Magic Overview section of the SRD, under the Saving Throws heading:
> 
> I've bolded the important part. _Scry_ is an effect spell, so you do not know whether the subject saved or not.
> 
> If you want to know whether the opponent is alive, try casting _nightmare_. It has unlimited range just like _scry_ does, but since it's a targeted spell you will know if the target saves against it.




Hi!


			
				Rules of the Game: Magical Oddities (a.k.a. Skip Williams) said:
			
		

> What the Caster Knows: When a spell has a target entry, the caster knows when the target makes a successful saving throw or not. The caster immediately senses when a target makes a successful saving throw and likewise knows if a target has failed a saving throw by virtue of not noticing a successful saving throw. When a spell can affect several targets at once, the caster notes each successful or failed saving throw. The caster does not sense successful or failed saving throws when a spell has an area or effect entry instead of a target entry. For magical effects that aren’t presented in the same format as a spell, refer to a similar spell to determine if the user can sense a successful or failed saving throw. For example, a supernatural or spell−like ability that works just like the charm monster spell is a targeted effect and the user knows when the target’s save succeeds or fails.


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## Nail (Jun 9, 2005)

Huh.  Hadn't noticed Skip made up some new Global House Rules.


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## AuraSeer (Jun 9, 2005)

Nail, by the rules the caster gets no special information when he's picked an invalid target. I agree that would be reasonable, but nothing in the RAW says it works that way. 

Come to think of it, there are even more possible results than I had thought of:


The spell is successful
The victim makes his saving throw
The victim's SR resists the spell
The victim is immune due to _mind blank_ or a similar effect
The victim is in an _antimagic field_ or some other non-scryable area
The spell fizzles because the victim is not a valid target (and is possibly dead)
Only the first result will give the caster any information on what happened. He knows the spell worked because he can see the scried vision. For a targeted spell, rthe caster will also be aware when a successful save happens. But if a spell fails for any other reason, the caster doesn't necessarily know why. (Skip's article doesn't change this-- AFAICT it just repeats the rules already in the book.)

I think I need to retract my earlier suggestion. _Nightmare_ is only a useful tool here if the victim has no SR, and lacks access to protections like _antimagic field_ or _mind blank_. Outside those limitations, it's hardly better than just casting _scrying_ again.

A better solution would be to use _commune_ or _contact other plane_ to ask whether the victim is still alive. Those will still fizzle if the victim is alive and has _mind blank_ running, but if that's the case you won't find any information about him no matter what you to.


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## Nail (Jun 9, 2005)

Is there any RAW on what happens if you target something with a spell that can't be targeted?  Like Magic Missile-ing a rope?

That is: is the spell cast?  Does the caster know the -whatever- can't be targeted?


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## Infiniti2000 (Jun 9, 2005)

There's no explicity statement in RAW to the effect, no.  IMO, if your spell fails, you know why it failed.  If the opposite were true, then consider the ramifications.  You wear armor and cast a fireball spell at an opponent with SR located in an AMF.  If the spell fails, did it fail due to SR, the AMF, or your arcane spell failure chance?  Do you find it a little unreasonable that a spellcaster could not tell why?  If you agree that the spellcaster should be able to tell why, then the same reasoning applies to scrying.  Just because it has unlimited range does not make the reasoning any less valid.  The flavor aspects of 'seeing' the outcome of the spell (e.g. fizzle as you catch your finger on your armor, the spell bounce off the AMF, an invisible SR shield slough off the flames, etc.) should not impact your decision.  Anyone could come up with flavor descriptions for determing the failure modes of scrying.


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## AuraSeer (Jun 9, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> Is there any RAW on what happens if you target something with a spell that can't be targeted? Like Magic Missile-ing a rope?
> 
> That is: is the spell cast?  Does the caster know the -whatever- can't be targeted?



The RAW appear to be silent on this issue. Your _magic missile_ is still expended, but the book doesn't specify whether you know that it fizzled.


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## Nifft (Jun 10, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> Is there any RAW on what happens if you target something with a spell that can't be targeted?  Like Magic Missile-ing a rope?
> 
> That is: is the spell cast?  Does the caster know the -whatever- can't be targeted?




Hmm, a new way of finding Mimics.

 -- N


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## moritheil (Jun 10, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Hmm, a new way of finding Mimics.
> 
> -- N




Just use Message.


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## Nail (Jun 10, 2005)

Given examples like that, I'd say it's reasonable (tho' not explicit RAW) to say spell casters know why their spell didn't work.

_IF_ you buy that, then _scrying_ is a great way of finding out if someone is dead or not.


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## seans23 (Jun 15, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> There's no explicity statement in RAW to the effect, no. IMO, if your spell fails, you know why it failed. If the opposite were true, then consider the ramifications. You wear armor and cast a fireball spell at an opponent with SR located in an AMF. If the spell fails, did it fail due to SR, the AMF, or your arcane spell failure chance? Do you find it a little unreasonable that a spellcaster could not tell why? If you agree that the spellcaster should be able to tell why, then the same reasoning applies to scrying.




In that situation, you're visibly looking at the opponent in question, so it makes sense that you would have a chance of knowing why your spell failed.  In the case of scry, you're just looking into a crystal ball, holy font, pool of water, or mirror.  You try to scry and you fail, so you see nothing but your own reflection. 

I'm pretty sure Bad Paper knows what he (or his cleric companion) should do next, if he's really interested in the fate of his enemy.


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## Bad Paper (Jun 15, 2005)

seans23 said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure Bad Paper knows what he (or his cleric companion) should do next, if he's really interested in the fate of his enemy.



aha!  You have given it away, and it has nothing to do with _Commune_.  Lesson: when you can't _Scry_ on someone, trick your DM on EN World.


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## seans23 (Jun 15, 2005)

Bad Paper said:
			
		

> aha!  You have given it away, and it has nothing to do with _Commune_.  Lesson: when you can't _Scry_ on someone, trick your DM on EN World.




Tharizdun is laughing at you RIGHT NOW


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