# Practical Metamagic, worth it?



## HeapThaumaturgist (Oct 31, 2006)

In Races of the Dragon there is a feat called "Practical Metamagic".  Essentially, you take the feat and apply it to a metamagic feat you already know:  Now that metamagic feat requires one level lower spell slot to use.

So Empower Spell, for instance, takes up a slot one level higher instead of two.

Is that saving worth a whole feat on its own?

What if the spellcaster in question has Metamagic Specialist from PHBII (can use metamagic without time increase) and applies this to Quicken Spell?  Is Quicken at +3 worth two feats for a sorcerer?

Right now I've got Empower and Quicken and I'm wondering if I should take this and slap it on one of the metamagics I have now.

--fje


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## Patlin (Oct 31, 2006)

How about giving us one or two alternatives you are considering, so we can compare plusses and minuses?


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## Infiniti2000 (Oct 31, 2006)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> Is that saving worth a whole feat on its own?



 Absolutely IMO.  In fact, I don't think I'd allow the feat.  My cleric would take it with purify spell and just plain old purify just about everything.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Oct 31, 2006)

Patlin said:
			
		

> How about giving us one or two alternatives you are considering, so we can compare plusses and minuses?




Since I've got the Metamagic Specialist already, if I don't take that I'll probably take a metamagic feat of some sort.

The character is a Force specialist, though, so many of his spells are single-target instead of area.  I was thinking:

Chain Spell - +3 lvs, chained spell hits target normally and arcs out to up to caster-level additional targets who take 1/2-1/4 damage or save at +4.

Sculpt Spell - +1 lvl, change area spell into 10' x 30' cylinder, 4 10' cubes, 40' cone, 20' burst, or 120' line

Sculpt I figured would let me get more umph out of my fewer AoE spells by blowing them out of a bigger slot in different shapes.  I'm trying to find a (Force) descriptor AoE spell.

--fje


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## frankthedm (Oct 31, 2006)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> Absolutely IMO.  In fact, I don't think I'd allow the feat.  My cleric would take it with purify spell and just plain old purify just about everything.



I agree. On a PRC that gives up casting progression, maybe an effect like that can be balanced. But for even two feats its easy to break that.


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## Nail (Oct 31, 2006)

It would be fine if the minimum would be +1 level.


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## Infiniti2000 (Oct 31, 2006)

Nail said:
			
		

> It would be fine if the minimum would be +1 level.



 Why no love for the +1 metamagic feats?


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## nightjackal (Oct 31, 2006)

Just a quick Note about Practical Metamagic....you have to choose what Metamagic feat it goes to and it can lower the + level by one to a *minimum of +1* ... so you can't use it on say Extend Spell since it can be lowered below +1

Oh though there is a Feat in Complete Mage that allows you to lower the spell level adjustment by 1 of any 3 spells a day. It has no minimum adjustment so you can Extend Mage Armor and it would still be a 1st level spell.

Metamagic School Focus (I think that the name)


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Oct 31, 2006)

Actually it does have a minimum of +1 increase to the spell level.

Maybe I'm missing the boat on metamagic, I've never before played anybody that used it.  All the Wizards I've played, I took item creation feats instead of metamagic.  It always seemed like you could get the same umph for a lower price ... for instance, Empowered Fireball is about the same as a 15 dice fireball ... but that's a 5th level slot and there are many similar AoE spells with a 15 dice cap which are 4th level spells. 

I'm currently torn between Sculpt and Practical Metamagic.

--fje


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## Stalker0 (Oct 31, 2006)

I think throwing that on empower is a big deal. Quicken at +3 is pretty good, but its still fairly limiting. But empower at +1, that's gives you a whole lot of flexibility to deal with. Keep in mind that while a 4th level spell might have a 15 dice cap, are you 15th level? If not, then an empowered 3rd level spell (now 4th) does more damage on average than your 4th level spell, but also at a cost of -1 to the DC.


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## frankthedm (Oct 31, 2006)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> I think throwing that on empower is a big deal. Quicken at +3 is pretty good, but its still fairly limiting. But empower at +1, that's gives you a whole lot of flexibility to deal with. Keep in mind that while a 4th level spell might have a 15 dice cap, are you 15th level? If not, then an empowered 3rd level spell (now 4th) does more damage on average than your 4th level spell, but also at a cost of -1 to the DC.



Other than flame strike, which only druids get, there are no 1d6 per level 4th level spells capping at 15 pre-splat.

And the 1 less DC is not that big of a deal with all the splat material touch attack spells floating about. Scorching ray's surpassing of the 1d6 per level damage cap gets an evil eye from a few folks, empowering it at a 3rd level slot is pushing it.

And given a lot of folks interpret empower as affecting ray of enfeeblements [1d6+1 per 2 caster levels, max 5]+50% rather than [1d6+50%]+1 per 2 caster levels, max 5, that just made an already brutal spell even worse.


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## Nail (Oct 31, 2006)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> I'm currently torn between Sculpt and Practical Metamagic.



Our Sor really had alot of use for Sculpt, as our Ftr and Psi would always be in the way.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Oct 31, 2006)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> Actually it does have a minimum of +1 increase to the spell level.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing the boat on metamagic, I've never before played anybody that used it.  All the Wizards I've played, I took item creation feats instead of metamagic.  It always seemed like you could get the same umph for a lower price ... for instance, Empowered Fireball is about the same as a 15 dice fireball ... but that's a 5th level slot and there are many similar AoE spells with a 15 dice cap which are 4th level spells.
> 
> ...



Some metamagic feats are better than others.  Heighten Spell is a great one to take around level 12 or so for a sorcerer, because suddenly you're getting all this extra mileage out of your low-level spells known because you can ramp them up using higher level spell slots.  Sculpt is the bomb at low- to mid-levels.  I like to use it on spells like glitterdust and web, which otherwise have areas that are annoying to place.  Empower and maximize generally work better with spells that don't have saving throws, since the DCs don't increase even though the spell slots do.

Chain spell is a weird one.  It only works well if you have a lot of (target: one creature) spells already, but if you do it's a good candidate for Practical Metamagic.  Energy Substitution and Admixture don't seem to fit your character concept, and that's probably a good thing, because they're terrible.  Substitution is barely worth a feat, and Admixture really suffers from low DCs due to the +4 spell slot cost.  It's a pretty good BBEG feat, though, especially when combined with Greater Spell Focus.  Quicken is golden, of course, especially if you lower its cost later.

I think that the issue with Empower is this:  Take your empowered fireball, which does the equivalent of 15d6 damage.  Compare that to a cone of cold, which has a 15d6 cap.  You're saying you know about 4th level spells that have 15d6 caps, and I can't think of any, so let's say, for the sake of argument, that CoC is 4th level.  Assume you're a high enough level sorcerer to cast an empowered fireball: 10th.  You do 10d6 damage with a normal fireball, and 10d6 damage with a CoC.  You do 15d6 damage with the empowered fireball.  There's the difference.  Normally, you'd have to be 15th level to do 15d6 damage.  Once you're 14th level, you'll be able to empower your 4th level spells, so you'll do about 21d6 damage with them.  If you're willing to burn high-level slots, you'll be doing more damage than someone your level has any right to be able to do.  If we think of CoC as being a 5th level spell, the advantage of an empowered fireball is even more impressive.  You can do 10d6 with the unempowered CoC, or 15d6 with the empowered fireball.  If you can also sculpt, you can wait until 12th level and blast off cone-sculpted 15d6 fireballs or do 12d6 CoCs.

Metamagic is sorcerer love, especially if you're using the option to ditch your familiar for quick metamagic.

Where's Thanee to proselytize about sorcerer metamagic?


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Oct 31, 2006)

Right now the feat loadout I'm playing with is:

Empower Spell
Quicken Spell
Sculpt Spell
Practical Metamagic (Empower)
Force Needle

--fje


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## Lonely Tylenol (Oct 31, 2006)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> Right now the feat loadout I'm playing with is:
> 
> Empower Spell
> Quicken Spell
> ...




Looks good.  I assume you're a 12th level human?  What's Force Needle?


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## Jack Simth (Oct 31, 2006)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> Actually it does have a minimum of +1 increase to the spell level.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing the boat on metamagic, I've never before played anybody that used it.  All the Wizards I've played, I took item creation feats instead of metamagic.  It always seemed like you could get the same umph for a lower price ... for instance, Empowered Fireball is about the same as a 15 dice fireball ... but that's a 5th level slot and there are many similar AoE spells with a 15 dice cap which are 4th level spells.
> 
> ...



The Wizard is why.  A Wizard has to choose, in advance, what metamagic to apply to a spell.  At 8th, at the beginning of the day, Enervation and Polymorph look much more attractive than an Empowered Scorching Ray or an Extended Haste.  In general, a higher-level spell is more useful than a metamagic'd lower-level spell (there are exceptions, however - an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, for instance.....).

The Sorcerer-8, on the other hand, on finding out that the Enervation he knows is worse than useless against the undead he's currently facing, can shrug and do the Empowered Scorching Ray on the spot, for 8d6*1.5 damage.    While he's basically stuck with his feat choices and his spell known choices until he levels a time or two (Core, anyway), he's not stuck with what he decided to do today.  A Heightened-to-3rd Charm Person is great when you don't have a Suggestion, for instance.  Sure, Suggestion is better.  But Charm Person will often get the job done (especially with Sorcerer's ability to make it a 3rd level spell on he fly with Heighten Spell, and the Sorcerer's Charisma check).


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Nov 1, 2006)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Looks good.  I assume you're a 12th level human?  What's Force Needle?




14th level Dragonwrought (Force) Kobold Sorcerer 10/Argent Savant 4.

Actually it's "Invisibile Needle"  (I keep messing up the name).  A reserve feat that allows you to produce little needles of force from Complete Mage.  

--fje


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## Lonely Tylenol (Nov 1, 2006)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> 14th level Dragonwrought (Force) Kobold Sorcerer 10/Argent Savant 4.
> 
> Actually it's "Invisibile Needle"  (I keep messing up the name).  A reserve feat that allows you to produce little needles of force from Complete Mage.
> 
> --fje



Damn.  That sounds like fun.  Kobolds make for pretty good sorcerers, and they've got panache to boot.


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## Andras (Nov 2, 2006)

I took PMM:Quicken along with Accelerate MM: Quicken, and 10 levels of Incantatrix, so Quicken is only +2 levels for my Sorc


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