# Grim Tales: SLAVELORDS of CYDONIA  - Advance Copy: Taking Q&A!



## GlassJaw (Nov 24, 2004)

I had the pleasure of meeting Wulf (Ben) last night and it was _extremely generous_ of him to lend me the first copy (it has the number 1 written on the inside cover) of Slavelords of Cydonia.  I haven't had too much time to take a look at it yet (it looks sweet so far though) but I'd be more than willing to answer any questions that anyone might have.

Here's the synopsis Wulf sent to me and posted in this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=107718

"The PCs begin the adventure exploring an ancient ruin on Earth. They find
that they are preceded to the ruins by an archaeologist intent on activating
a strange gate (the Pylon Gateway). The gate opens, and the PCs soon find
themselves on Cydonia-- a mythical Mars ruled over by the Sli'ess, a race of
reptilian humanoids.

The PCs are rapidly forced to learn the ways of the Sli'ess, who are equally
interested in learning about them-- and particularly about Earth. The
Sli'ess Empire is a cruel place, ruled over by the snake-headed ra, policed
by the croc-headed bru, and manipulated by the chameleon-headed priests,
the suul. Gecko-headed scientists (lor) and tortoise-like merchants (yul) round
out the rigid caste system-- with the mixed-blooded abominations (got),
humans, and rat-man slaves sinking to the gutters.

Negotiating the tricky political landscape of the Empire will be one of the
PCs greatest challenges.

PCs being what they are, they soon gain stature in the eyes of their
captors, and they are moved from House to House as a valuable commodity.
After a stint in the Arena, the PCs are "rescued" and pressed into service
by a high-ranking agent of the Authority Slave Hunters. He's particularly
interested in activating and controlling the local Pylon system that has
lain dormant on Cydonia for millenia.

In the course of this task the PCs uncover a hidden threat-- the cthulhoid
Lethid. Lost to history, even to the Sli'ess, are the details of the First
Lethid-Sli'ess War. It was Earth, in fact, that was at one time the seat of
Sli'ess power, and Cydonia a mere outpost. At the end of the First War, the
Sli'ess retreated to Cydonia and severed the gateway to Earth, trapping the
lethid there. In time the Sli'ess forgot, content to merely rule over Mars-- 
but the lethid never forgot. With the gateway open, they have secretly
insinuated themselves onto Cydonia, and they are eager to finish the war.

The PCs rise to power in defense of Cydonia, moving from guerrilla like
raids to command of entire armies. They are instrumental in recovering
ancient Sli'ess weaponry, forging alliances between bickering factions
(including the outlawed magi cult, the Red Cadre), and even in reactivating
the devastating "Deimos Starhammer Array," a massive ion cannon based on
Deimos and controlled from Phobos. Before the end of the conflict, the PCs
will be honored commanders at the head of countless ranks of loyal bru
soldiers.

In the final Chapter of the adventure, the PCs must pay the devil his due-- 
having defended the Sli'ess Empire from the Lethid, they realize they must
now defend Earth from the Sli'ess. They have several options here: siding
with the Cydonian rebels in overthrowing the social order on Cydonia,
assassinating the Sli'ess Emperor, or destroying the Pylon Gateway-- 
including some options that, in truly heroic and epic fashion, don't allow
for a return home, and in some cases means the death of the PCs in pursuit
of the cause."


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## Fenris (Nov 24, 2004)

Glassjaw,
Are there suggestions about starting characters at different levels (since I know this goes from 1-20) to "shorten" up the epic campaign a bit? Not that I want to shorten it up a bit but rather to move things along fatser since my running time is so limited these days. As I recall in a much earlier post Wulf said it was organized into "books" that held broad plot lines that could be rearraigned or skipped.


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## GlassJaw (Nov 25, 2004)

> Are there suggestions about starting characters at different levels (since I know this goes from 1-20) to "shorten" up the epic campaign a bit? Not that I want to shorten it up a bit but rather to move things along fatser since my running time is so limited these days. As I recall in a much earlier post Wulf said it was organized into "books" that held broad plot lines that could be rearraigned or skipped.




Well there aren't really "suggestions" per se but within each book, there are a lot of possible scenarios.  Some of those scenarios, however, are necessary to get to the next book.  The campaign starts at level 1 but I suppose if you started the characters at a higher level, you could increase the power of the enemies in the first book a bit and then skip right to encounters that contain the crucial plot devices so you could get to the later books quicker.

Bear in mind that these are just some of my thoughts after browsing through the campaign itself.  Wulf would probably have a lot more specifics for you since he obviously is much more familiar with the campaign as a whole than I am.

Info or suggestions on characters is actually pretty vague overall but I think that's kind of the point.  As I'm reading through some of the early encounters of the campaign, I can really envision a variety of settings and time periods that it could take place in.

Anyway, I hope that answered your question.


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## scourger (Nov 25, 2004)

*HC & compatability*

Is it still hardcover?

How compatable does it seem to be with the core D&D d20 mechanics?  Can I run core D&D characters through it?  How about Star Wars, Judge Dredd or Omega World charcters?  I am doing a crossover game right now with all those elements, and I would like to be able to do the same with Slave Lords of Cydonia (SLC).  I don't mind a little shoehorning here and there, but I would like to know how dependent this module is on the Grim Tales (GT) rules set (which I don't have and likely would not use as I don't even like d20 Modern that well).  From the little I know of GT, it looks more like a d20 tool kit than a vastly different d20/OGL game.  I hope SLC will be very portable.


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## pogre (Nov 25, 2004)

Did the Mass Combat System make the cut? How does the scale work?


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## Acid_crash (Nov 25, 2004)

Is this just an adventure campaign guide?  A campaign setting?


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## GlassJaw (Nov 25, 2004)

> Is it still hardcover?




Yup.  The cover art is really nice too.



> How compatable does it seem to be with the core D&D d20 mechanics? Can I run core D&D characters through it? How about Star Wars, Judge Dredd or Omega World charcters? I am doing a crossover game right now with all those elements, and I would like to be able to do the same with Slave Lords of Cydonia (SLC). I don't mind a little shoehorning here and there, but I would like to know how dependent this module is on the Grim Tales (GT) rules set (which I don't have and likely would not use as I don't even like d20 Modern that well). From the little I know of GT, it looks more like a d20 tool kit than a vastly different d20/OGL game. I hope SLC will be very portable.




I'd say you'd have to do a little tweaking but it would definitely work.  It obviuosly would work best with GT but there are actually conversion notes if you aren't using GT.  It's a very nice addition and doesn't take up a lot of pages either (so if you do have GT, there aren't a lot of pages taken up with conversion notes).

As far as running it with D&D or Star Wars characters, it would probably work although magic and the Force might have to be toned down a bit.  It's a low-magic setting so any abundance of magic would definitely change the challenge level substantially.  If you used non-casting and non-Force characters, you could probably run with very little tweaking.

The beauty of SoC is that you can run it with characters from very timelines and it still works.  Using D&D/fantasy characters would be reminiscent of the old Barrier Peaks module where the PC's find weird alien tech.  In the Star Wars universe, it could be a new and previously undiscovered alien race.  Both would be really cool actually.

I would also encourage you to give GT a second look.  I'm not a huge fan of d20 Modern either but I love the GT class system.



> Did the Mass Combat System make the cut? How does the scale work?




Yes, there is a MCS.  It looks pretty good but I haven't delved into it too much yet.  I'll post some details this weekend after Turkey Day.    



> Is this just an adventure campaign guide? A campaign setting?




It's both and more!  The first half of the book is a full 1-20 campaign but in the process, it fleshes out the world of Cydonia.  The second half of the book is the crunchy stuff: the races, monsters, mass combat system, new equipment, etc.


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## pogre (Nov 25, 2004)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Yes, there is a MCS.  It looks pretty good but I haven't delved into it too much yet.  I'll post some details this weekend after Turkey Day.




I'll be more specific - my group helped playtest the mass combat rules. Is the map scale table still there? Does it vary by unit size?


BTW - These Mass Combat Rules use one of the most clever mechanics to make them seemless with d20. I have been using a modified version in my campaign ever since we tried it. My players really enjoy it.


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## scourger (Nov 25, 2004)

*Ow!*

It looks like a good match for Omega World (OW) characters, which is great since I LOVE that game.  And since there are many types of anthropomorphs in Cydonia, there should be room for OW mutants in the game.  I'm definitely looking forward to seeing this one.


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## Fenris (Nov 28, 2004)

OK Glassjaw,
You've had a few days to drool over it. You owe a review! or Has the drool fried your keyboard   

Seriously,
How flexible are the scenarios that Wulf presents? How fast or slow can this go? What are leveling times like? I would presume that there are level "checks" in there somewhere.

And from what you've read what era do you think Wulf had mind for characters to start (I know it could be any but...)? Fanatsy characters would start with more melee prof than a modern char.

Any magic that can be aquired while on Cydonia?

Thanks again


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## GlassJaw (Nov 28, 2004)

> You've had a few days to drool over it. You owe a review!




Well I've been away most of the weekend because of the holiday.  I'm hoping to have something by the end of this week.

A few days really doesn't do this tome justice.  As I said before, there is a TON of content in here.



> How flexible are the scenarios that Wulf presents?




I'd say very flexible.  In each chapter, there is one main quest that must be completely in order to get to the next but even that can be accomplished in a variety of ways.  Getting to that point is very flexible as many different scenarios and adventures are listed.  You can use as many or as few as you want.



> How fast or slow can this go? What are leveling times like?




Again, this is pretty much up to the GM.  You can jump right to the main quest in a section if you want to jump ahead.  As far as leveling goes, XP awards are listed but they are mostly story awards.  It's not really a "kill everything that moves" type of campaign.



> And from what you've read what era do you think Wulf had mind for characters to start (I know it could be any but...)?




I know it's not the answer you want to hear but honestly, it's very tough to say.  I'm basing this mostly on the first chapter which gives desriptions of starting backgrounds based on 3 time periods: archaic, modern, and post-apocalyptic.  I got a future/post-apocalyptic vibe from it but again, it really works in a variety of time periods.



> Any magic that can be aquired while on Cydonia?




Yes but it's pretty sparse.  There is a unique form of magic that the sli'ess use but from what I've found so far, acquiring magic is piecemeal at best.  There may be more of an opportunity to learn magic that I just haven't got to yet.


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## Maester Luwin (Nov 28, 2004)

Sounds good!!! Thanks for the info GlassJaw! Maester Luwin


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## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 29, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> What are leveling times like? I would presume that there are level "checks" in there somewhere.




This is on my short list of expected "gripes."

We mention story awards from time to time, but for the most part leave XP up to the individual GM. 

(Side note here: This is a campaign for experienced GMs and players.)

Personally, the method I would use is a more "cinematic" approach to level up the PCs when you feel it's appropriate. Each Book of the campaign is appropriate for a 4-level span (1st-4th, 5th-8th, 9th-12th, etc.) and there are certainly Adventures within each Book that stand out as good cliffhangers where the resolution may be worth levelling up the PCs as a reward.



> And from what you've read what era do you think Wulf had mind for characters to start (I know it could be any but...)? Fanatsy characters would start with more melee prof than a modern char.




You'll bring what you want to the book. (When I read it, I had a League of Extraordinary Gentlemen thing going on, so that's sort of how it came across to me, but I know for a fact that the writers weren't thinking the same thing!)

Wulf


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## Fenris (Nov 29, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Personally, the method I would use is a more "cinematic" approach to level up the PCs when you feel it's appropriate. Each Book of the campaign is appropriate for a 4-level span (1st-4th, 5th-8th, 9th-12th, etc.) and there are certainly Adventures within each Book that stand out as good cliffhangers where the resolution may be worth levelling up the PCs as a reward.
> 
> You'll bring what you want to the book. (When I read it, I had a League of Extraordinary Gentlemen thing going on, so that's sort of how it came across to me, but I know for a fact that the writers weren't thinking the same thing!)
> 
> Wulf




Thanks for the clarification Wulf. That sounds perfect. I don't level on XP now so it will work great. The Book breakdown gives me a guidline so I don't get them there too fast or too slow. 

As for other things, I am just can't wait for the book! So I am trying to divine what I can to set it up. But I figured out a way.

I can't wait for this thing. I am really excited. I don't usually buy adventures or modules or setting things, prefering to homebrew, but you have made this too tempting Wulf! How soon till the printer is done with the run and they start hitting stores?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 29, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> I don't usually buy adventures or modules or setting things, prefering to homebrew...




I think a homebrewer could really go to town with the product. There's enough there for any GM to run the whole campaign, but not so much that you don't have a lot of room to expand-- almost a whole planet, after all.



> How soon till the printer is done with the run and they start hitting stores?




They are already on their way. I reckon 2-3 weeks and they should be on shelf.


Wulf


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## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 29, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Fanatsy characters would start with more melee prof than a modern char.




A thought just occurred to me re-reading that comment.

Even though there are energy blasters and such on Cydonia-- disruptors, for example, project a cone effect, and will be much appreciated by Smart heroes-- melee characters will still be extremely important.

It's only in melee that massive damage stops being a fluke and starts being a regular occurrence. It will take a melee character to regularly drop mooks by exceeding their massive damage threshold. With a good Strength and some Melee Smash talents, you can expect your attacks to be more consistently deadly than most firearms (which is, I think, perfectly cinematic).


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## GlassJaw (Nov 30, 2004)

> I think a homebrewer could really go to town with the product




I totally agree.  This will pretty much be the crux of my *ahem* upcoming review.

This is not a product for the casual gamer.  Nothing is spoon-fed to the GM.  It's comprehensive and full of content and requires a dedicated GM to setup and run.  There are actually a few spots here and there that are pretty difficult from a GM'ing standpoint to pull off.  But if you put in the effort, what a campaign it will be.

If you want to actually run a cinematic _campaign_, this is the book for you.  It's not a linear module or a dungeon delve.  It's not even just a campaign sourcebook.  It's essentially a timeline ready for you to unleash and unravel.  Combine that with the fact that it can fit into any timeframe you can imagine and you have a truely unique product.


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## scourger (Nov 30, 2004)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> This will pretty much be the crux of my *ahem* upcoming review.




The more recent comments by the publisher make this product look more dependent on Grim Tales.  Can you specifically address compatability with standard D&D d20 rules in your review, GlassJaw?  I love the idea of this module, but my past experience with "conversion notes" has been sketchy.


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## Fenris (Nov 30, 2004)

scourger said:
			
		

> The more recent comments by the publisher make this product look more dependent on Grim Tales.  Can you specifically address compatability with standard D&D d20 rules in your review, GlassJaw?  I love the idea of this module, but my past experience with "conversion notes" has been sketchy.




You won't have any problems really. Grim Tales is merely a different path to a character concept. But in the end a Core character and a Grim Tales Character could be neigh indistuinguishable. In fact I am playing a Grim Tales character in  a standard D&D game now! I do just fine. Once you have a BAB, saves, skills, feats etc it doesn't matter how you got there. The real difference is Talents replaceing class features and those replicate core mostly anyway.

So even if the bad guy is listed as a Tough4/Strong3. Ignore it. Look at the BAB and the attack and the skills. How they were assembled won't matter for you.

If you have concerns, I would urge you to check out earlier threads from when GT was first out. Wulf answered many similar questions.


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## Von Ether (Nov 30, 2004)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> It's both and more!  The first half of the book is a full 1-20 campaign but in the process, it fleshes out the world of Cydonia.  The second half of the book is the crunchy stuff: the races, monsters, mass combat system, new equipment, etc.




Very cool. Pinnacle Ent. is doing the same sort of format with their Savage World settings. You get a mega adventure along with your game setting. While I am not big into gaming nostoliga, I do like the whole "discover the setting as you go" style these games give.


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## GlassJaw (Nov 30, 2004)

> Can you specifically address compatability with standard D&D d20 rules in your review




Yeah, I'll definitely go into a bit more detail even though there are only a few pages actually devoted to the "conversion."



> So even if the bad guy is listed as a Tough4/Strong3. Ignore it. Look at the BAB and the attack and the skills. How they were assembled won't matter for you.




This is basically true although using Grim Tales will obviously make it more seamless.  GT has a much more developed magic system than you'll get in the short conversion rules in SoC.  Some of the talents and skills are pretty different too than their D&D couterparts.  I'd say you can probably convert 75-80% of the material as-is or with the conversion rules given in the book.  After that you'll have to fudge it a bit.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 30, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Once you have a BAB, saves, skills, feats etc it doesn't matter how you got there. The real difference is Talents replaceing class features and those replicate core mostly anyway.




The conversion notes start by saying, and I paraphrase, almost everything is included in the statblock already, so you will hardly notice. As Fenris pointed out, GT is amazingly compatible with everything d20 as is.

For completeness I included a quick one-line description of every feat and talent, just in case.

Honestly, the biggest difference is going to be spellcasting, and if you wanted to use traditional D&D spellcasters alongside the GT spellcasters in the module, you could do it with no problem. The PCs cast spells their way, the native Cydonians cast spells their way.

Wulf


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## Fenris (Nov 30, 2004)

A couple of more questions:

Since in this adventure we have transported the PCs to a new place (planet). What do you do about PC deaths? Obviously I don't want to resurrect them (that's why this is Grim Tales after all). But you can't just poof in a new character like you can in a traditonal setting (wander to inn and pick up the new meat). Any suggestions in the book for covering such contingincies?

Also: Cydonian weapons. Are there suggestions for how proficiency should proceed? Are they all exotics (well to the PCs)? When do they stop being exotic since the PCs are around them all the time? Do they come in groups? I am just wondering as I won't be sending in a combat oriented group of characters, but the players are to a degree. Just trying to get a handle on how the characters will need to adapt to their new home


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## GlassJaw (Nov 30, 2004)

> What do you do about PC deaths? Obviously I don't want to resurrect them (that's why this is Grim Tales after all). But you can't just poof in a new character like you can in a traditonal setting (wander to inn and pick up the new meat). Any suggestions in the book for covering such contingincies?




Yes, there is some info on this.  In Book 2 (which deals with the Arena and the PC's becoming gladiators), there is info about introducing new PC's.  The Arena is very diverse so it's a logical place for the PC's to meet new people, species, creatures, etc.

There is also an underground resistance movement (also detailed in the Arena section) in Cydonia that a new PC could be affiliated with.  The new PC could even be of non-human origin.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 30, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Also: Cydonian weapons. Are there suggestions for how proficiency should proceed? Are they all exotics (well to the PCs)? When do they stop being exotic since the PCs are around them all the time? Do they come in groups? I am just wondering as I won't be sending in a combat oriented group of characters, but the players are to a degree. Just trying to get a handle on how the characters will need to adapt to their new home




If you have Personal Firearms Proficiency, you can use all Cydonian energy weapons.

Additionally, lances (a line effect like a flamethrower) and disruptors (a cone effect) can be used with Simple Weapon Proficiency. (They're really just point and shoot area-of-effect weapons).

None of them are considered Exotic. 

(This argument was hashed out in great detail between me and the writers...)

Wulf


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## Fenris (Nov 30, 2004)

Thanks Glassjaw and Wulf! I grow more and more giddy with expectation with each answer!

And I also wanted to add to Wulf a big thanks for answering all these questions about both GT and Soc. Your responses and  enthusiasm about your products as well as your availability here is a big reason why I am buying Slavelords (along with that second copy of Grim Tales for my players).

I truly hope that Slavelords does well so that more Grim Tales products can come out. They are really the only gaming products I forsee buying anymore. I am a complete and hopeless Grim Tales convert (and proud of it!)


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## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 30, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> And I also wanted to add to Wulf a big thanks for answering all these questions about both GT and Soc. Your responses and  enthusiasm about your products as well as your availability here is a big reason why I am buying Slavelords (along with that second copy of Grim Tales for my players).




The enthusiasm for gaming shown by this community is a big reason why I am publishing. (It may be the only reason-- it's certainly not the money!)



> I truly hope that Slavelords does well so that more Grim Tales products can come out. They are really the only gaming products I forsee buying anymore. I am a complete and hopeless Grim Tales convert (and proud of it!)




Wow, thanks! I hope so too. Plans are already afoot for the Dragons and Undead campaign books, and I spent a good portion of the Thanksgiving holiday working on a GT Spellcasting supplement... If Slavelords does well and helps sell a few more copies of Grim Tales, you can expect more products, don't worry!

Wulf


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## scourger (Dec 1, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> And I also wanted to add to Wulf a big thanks for answering all these questions about both GT and Soc. Your responses and  enthusiasm about your products as well as your availability here is a big reason why I am buying Slavelords (along with that second copy of Grim Tales for my players).




DITTO.

It is also really cool of you to loan an advance copy to a member so that information can get out.  It is brilliantly clever covert marketing.  Although I haven't gotten into GT, SoC looks intriguing enough to buy (and I've been watching for it for what feels like about a year).  Hopefully, I can use it with the rules with which I like to play.

Here's hoping SoC is a great module with more adventures to follow.


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## GlassJaw (Dec 1, 2004)

> It is brilliantly clever covert marketing.




I'm just a pawn in Wulf's devilish scheme.    

Besides getting to check out the book, I was just happy to chat with Wulf a bit since he lives very close to me.  Us Rhoe d'Islandiz (that's a Rhode Island joke) have to stick together.


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## Maester Luwin (Dec 1, 2004)

Wulf I would also like to thank you both for the wonderful game Grim Tales is & your support on this forum!!! I love gritty/ low magic games & Grim Tales is definitly the ticket! I can't wait for Slave Lords myself. Thanks Maester Luwin


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## jezter6 (Dec 1, 2004)

I'm really interested in it as well. I'm a not-too-good GM, and really wanting to run an Iron Lords of Jupiter type game...and this may just fit the ticket. I won't have to make stuff up, I won't have to worry much about planning. And I can start some d20modern n00bs off with something promising.

If it works with modern, I assume it works for future as well. I'm interested...is there a preview doc out there anywhere?

Also, any chance this would get split up into smaller PDF docs for web sale? I would rather a PDF, but dont have the capacity to download something near this large in PDF, nor will i need it all at once. If it were in 4 or 5 smaller PDF's that would be pretty cool as I could buy the first one as i need it, and buy the rest as we get closer or I win the lottery.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 1, 2004)

jezter6 said:
			
		

> I'm really interested in it as well. I'm a not-too-good GM, and really wanting to run an Iron Lords of Jupiter type game...and this may just fit the ticket. I won't have to make stuff up, I won't have to worry much about planning. And I can start some d20modern n00bs off with something promising.




As long as "not too good" doesn't mean inexperienced, you'll be ok. But you do need to know your way around the GM side of the screen even if you aren't that creative. Otherwise, I'd recommend you give Slavelords a pass. It's not your typical adventure.



> If it works with modern, I assume it works for future as well. I'm interested...is there a preview doc out there anywhere?




I haven't read much of d20 Future, but I would be very surprised if Slavelords didn't run just fine. 

No preview yet-- I might preview some of the rules sections, but am unlikely to preview the adventure itself (that is, the non-OGL stuff!)



> Also, any chance this would get split up into smaller PDF docs for web sale?




Do you realize how funny that question is sitting on top of your current sig block?

Wulf


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 1, 2004)

scourger said:
			
		

> It is also really cool of you to loan an advance copy to a member so that information can get out.  It is brilliantly clever covert marketing.




And here I thought it was rather plain and overt. 

But seriously, I'm just enthused to have another book out there, and I am very proud of this one... (till the errata starts showing up, anyway...)

Marketing is nice, but I'm honestly just tickled to be able to 'talk shop.' 

My personal supply arrived on my doorstep today, which means the bulk will probably be in Osseum's warehouse this week, and on the way to retail very soon.

Wulf


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## Fenris (Dec 1, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> If you have Personal Firearms Proficiency, you can use all Cydonian energy weapons.
> 
> Additionally, lances (a line effect like a flamethrower) and disruptors (a cone effect) can be used with Simple Weapon Proficiency. (They're really just point and shoot area-of-effect weapons).
> 
> ...




Wulf you mentioned the great effect melee weapon could have. Any cool Cydonian melee weapons in the book. And again the usualy profiency question. I am way jazzed about the firearms/simple rules for the others though.


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## scourger (Dec 1, 2004)

When will it be available through EN World Shop?  Ordering through my FLGS is dicey at times, and I really need to give this site some patronage.


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## JoeCrow (Dec 1, 2004)

> Plans are already afoot for the Dragons and Undead campaign books




Schwing!! Hey, what about a Noir/Pulp supers book? Bit more focused than the big campaign books that seem designed to drop into any world, but I dunno. I think the Shadow and Doc Savage might work in any setting, with a bit of work.



> and I spent a good portion of the Thanksgiving holiday working on a GT Spellcasting supplement




Aces. Me buy this now. Edit faster, puny developer! Or customer smash!!

I dunno, maybe I've been reading too many Hulk comics...


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## jezter6 (Dec 1, 2004)

Wulf,

My question about smaller PDF's was more of a: 50-100 pages per PDF, not asking you to sell me 3 pagers at $2 each where I'd end up paying $200 for Slavelords instead of $35. Smaller PDF's of a MONSTER of a book is fine.

I'm relatively inexperienced at GM'ing in general, although I know the rules fairly well. My problem with GMing is more on the creative side and having to figure out where to take my players. Maybe it's that I haven't had players that really take control of their own destiny and i have to lead them around a bit more, I don't really know.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 1, 2004)

jezter6 said:
			
		

> I'm relatively inexperienced at GM'ing in general, although I know the rules fairly well. My problem with GMing is more on the creative side and having to figure out where to take my players. Maybe it's that I haven't had players that really take control of their own destiny and i have to lead them around a bit more, I don't really know.




I definitely recommend you look through the book first. Take your time in the shop, get a feel for what it provides and what you'll need to be ready to do yourself.

It's quite a beast. We give you the reigns, but you better know how to ride.


Wulf


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 1, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Wulf you mentioned the great effect melee weapon could have. Any cool Cydonian melee weapons in the book. And again the usual profiency question. I am way jazzed about the firearms/simple rules for the others though.




First, of course the sli'ess have analogs of common melee weapons-- axes, swords, clubs/hammers, spears and picks and the like.

Iron is plentiful on Cydonia (big surprise, right?) but most noble houses outfit their bru legions with crystalline weapons. Crystalline weapons accept power packs and have energy effects-- fire, cold, electricity, sonic-- to make it somewhat more unpleasant to be on the wrong end of a croc warrior's _gurak_.

A basic hit will suck 1 charge and add some energy effect, a confirmed crit will suck 3 charges and really whup ass: light people on fire, paralyze them, slow them, nauseate them, etc.

The skreet ratmen make pretty good use of iron, though if they're caught with a weapon they're likely to be eaten. But then, since their fate is to be eaten eventually anyway, most of the gutter trash are armed to the teeth.

Proficiencies are what you'd expect-- Simple, Melee, and a few Exotic.

Wulf


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## GlassJaw (Dec 1, 2004)

> I'm relatively inexperienced at GM'ing in general, although I know the rules fairly well. My problem with GMing is more on the creative side and having to figure out where to take my players. Maybe it's that I haven't had players that really take control of their own destiny and i have to lead them around a bit more, I don't really know.




I've read through about half the campaign now and I've kind of been taking mental notes of areas that, if I were planning to run it, I think I would need to flesh out a bit more.  I've had some lengthy discussions with Wulf on some of these areas.

While there are a couple of spots that _I_ feel (re: my opinion) could use some more info, there is nothing "wrong" with any particular section.  This is not the traditional Temple of Elemental Evil-type campaign.  There are many areas that are open to interpretation and require some GM savvy to navigate through.

I'll give one example.  Book 2 is mostly about the Arena and gladiator combat (which factors highly into sli'ess society).  The thing is that there aren't really any hard and fast hooks to get the players into the arena.  There are really only one or two specific hooks but they might not work because the campaign may not develop in that manner.  Sil'saar could send the PC's into the arena out of punishment, a reward and chance for the players to gain more freedoms and privileges, or even a way to increase his own status in the arena rankings.  It's really up to the GM and how the campaign develops.  Are the PC's resentful of being in captivity and trying to escape at every opporunity?  Are they model captives, biding their time for an opportune moment?

My point is that it's up to the GM how the players get into the arean or even how much he wants gladiator combat to be a factor in the campaign.  SoL isn't a campaign that requires the players to find the silver key in room 55 to get to the mirrored maze or whatever.  It's an amorphous blob that the GM can mold as he sees fit.  Some of the blob just requires more molding than others.  As Wulf mentioned, this style may appeal to some and may not to others.  Regardless of that, this is surely a unique product and really offers a new way to look at campaign building and the 1-20 epic module.


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## GlassJaw (Dec 1, 2004)

> Wulf you mentioned the great effect melee weapon could have. Any cool Cydonian melee weapons in the book




Oh, I forgot to mention, the weapons are flat-out kewl.

One of the really cool spots is in the arena.  The players will actually get a chance to train and use some of the Cydonia weapons, potentially gaining some proficiency with them (at the GM's discretion).


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## jezter6 (Dec 2, 2004)

Another question I have...

The NPC's in Slavelords and talents...do they have talents that are only in grim tales (not in d20 modern)? And are the full talents reprinted for those who don't have GT or do we almost have to buy it just to use the NPC talents?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 2, 2004)

jezter6 said:
			
		

> The NPC's in Slavelords and talents...do they have talents that are only in grim tales (not in d20 modern)? And are the full talents reprinted for those who don't have GT or do we almost have to buy it just to use the NPC talents?




_Most_ talents are subsumed into the statblock, so it won't matter.

A one-line summary of all feats and talents is provided at the beginning of the book, so if you don't have (a) Grim Tales (b) D&D 3.5 or (c) d20 Modern, you'll be ok.


Wulf


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## jezter6 (Dec 2, 2004)

I'm liking this book more and more....may not get to use it as a GM (if it's too complicated for me to run), but it looks like it's worth the good read anyways.


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## GlassJaw (Dec 2, 2004)

> I'm liking this book more and more....may not get to use it as a GM (if it's too complicated for me to run), but it looks like it's worth the good read anyways.




Oh it's definitely a good read.  I'm finding it's almost a campaign "how-to" guide.  The way the campaign is presented really gives a lot of insight about developing a timeline, the cause and effect of PC actions, how the major players interact with one another, and what's going on in the world around the PC's, etc.

As opposed to linear modules, the GM has control over how the campaign develops.  It's an actual _campaign_ rather than a room-by-room description.

As I read through some sections, I can see lifting some of SoC and putting it into completely unrelated campaigns.  For example, the section on the arena and the gladiator pits is AWESOME.  If I ran any kind of campaign that dealt with the PC's being gladiators, I would definitely borrow heavily from SoC.


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## Fenris (Dec 2, 2004)

Glassjaw,
Now where in the bustling metropolis that is East Providence, RI do you live and what time would I find you out of the house leaving this precious copy of Slavelords unguarded, hmmm?  

Man, I can't wait for this thing. Wulf's descriptions of the energy weapons rock. This is like the whole 3.5 expectation thing again, with leaks here and there.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 2, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Man, I can't wait for this thing. Wulf's descriptions of the energy weapons rock. This is like the whole 3.5 expectation thing again, with leaks here and there.




So it looks like I'm gonna sell at least two copies. That's a start. 

In honor of your enthusiasm, please enjoy the attached file.


Wulf


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## Fenris (Dec 2, 2004)

Christmas came early! Thanks Santa Wulf!

Man, I want the book NOW! This made the desire worse. Now at least I have a piece to slaver over. The art is cool and really gives the feel of an alien culture. 

No wonder Glassjaw is still reading this thing. It looks like you managed to pack a world book, campaign source book and what, FIVE open format modules into this book. 

The more I read about the weapons the more excited I get and just from the cultural references in the weapon descriptions, am getting a good picture of the world you have painted. I can't wait for this thing. But at least I am confident from Glassjaw's comments, Wulf's and the snippets he has dropped that it will be worth the wait!


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## GlassJaw (Dec 2, 2004)

> No wonder Glassjaw is still reading this thing. It looks like you managed to pack a world book, campaign source book and what, FIVE open format modules into this book.




Trust me when I say that this book is a beast.  There's just so much STUFF.  It's actually about 20 pages longer than GT and of that, only 2-3 pages total are white space.  I'm currently writing my review and I haven't even gotten to the second half of the book and it's already almost 4 pages long.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 2, 2004)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Trust me when I say that this book is a beast.  There's just so much STUFF.  It's actually about 20 pages longer than GT and of that, only 2-3 pages total are white space.




You might find this odd (considering our private conversations about my concern over this text-heavy book) but I was actually extremely concerned about the couple of columns of white space left in the book.

It really took a good look at the layout in Necromancer Games' _Lost City of Barakus_-- the closest analog out there to what I was attempting-- for me to come to accept what white space is in the book.

Wulf


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## GlassJaw (Dec 2, 2004)

> You might find this odd (considering our private conversations about my concern over this text-heavy book) but I was actually extremely concerned about the couple of columns of white space left in the book.




I actually really liked the format and the lack of white space was one of the first things I noticed.  Most books (and some companies are guilty of this more than others) almost invariably suffer from some white space.  I really felt that, regardless of the quality of content, I certainly wasn't paying for white space.


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## Fenris (Dec 3, 2004)

Wulf,
Is it Psi-donia or Cid-onia?

Did I read the weapons section correctly? One feat (martial or personal firearms) grant proficiency with all weapons in that group and exotics are taken individually?

PS Thanks for the vehicle combat card download!


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Dec 3, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Wulf,
> Is it Psi-donia or Cid-onia?
> 
> Did I read the weapons section correctly? One feat (martial or personal firearms) grant proficiency with all weapons in that group and exotics are taken individually?
> ...




The first. (Assuming Wulf intended the same pronunciation as the real location.)


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## Selganor (Dec 3, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> So it looks like I'm gonna sell at least two copies. That's a start.



Nake that three... as soon as it arrives in Germany I'll get it and use it as a kickstart to a new campaign.


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## scourger (Dec 3, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Wulf,
> Is it Psi-donia or Cid-onia?
> 
> PS Thanks for the vehicle combat card download!




I've also wondered if the "C" is strong (like a "K") or soft (like an "S").

Where's the vehicle combat card download?


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Dec 3, 2004)

Pronunciation of 'Cydonia'


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## The Shaman (Dec 3, 2004)

Are the mass combat rules suitable for use in other d20 games?


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## BryonD (Dec 3, 2004)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> Are the mass combat rules suitable for use in other d20 games?




I don't have all the details, but the mass combat rules are based on the CR/EL system presented in GT.  Therefore, the mass combat system should be just as compatible with other D20 games as that system is.  I would consider that to be very compatible.  The CR/EL system was actually mostly developed by Upper Krust for D&D anyway.....  Wulf simply adapted it for GT.


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## The Shaman (Dec 4, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> I don't have all the details, but the mass combat rules are based on the CR/EL system presented in GT.



Pretend for a moment that I've never seen anything other than the cover of _Grim Tales_...



Seriously, could you give me a three or four sentence summation of how the mass combat system works in _GT_? If it's kewel, that alone would be worth the price of admission.

(And *Wulf*, if you're still lurking, the fact that I haven't seen it is probably a good thing - I know that both of my FLGSs carried it, as I do recall seeing it on the shelves.)


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 4, 2004)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> Seriously, could you give me a three or four sentence summation of how the mass combat system works in _GT_? If it's kewel, that alone would be worth the price of admission.




It's based on EL.

If a group of creatures has EL = X, then the same group of creatures at half strength = X - 2. 

Note that we don't care here whether "half strength" means "Half of the creatures are still fresh and half of the creatures are dead" OR "All of the creatures are alive but have expended half of their resources (hit points, spells, etc.)"

As far as EL is concerned, it's the same thing.

The mass combat system is based on the very simple assumption that EL is "accurate" and furthermore that the more creatures that are involved-- ie, the more iterations there are-- the _more_ accurate it becomes in representing conflict between two groups of creatures.

There are, of course, some complexities thrown in, but in a nutshell the battle attack roll (a Battle Check) goes something like this:

1d20 + Attacker EL vs DC 10 + defender EL.

If the Battle Check is successful, the defender loses 2 EL.

Again, this is the requested oversimplification, but the kernel of the system is the cleanest I have seen in any d20 book. 


Wulf


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## The Shaman (Dec 4, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Again, this is the requested oversimplification, but the kernel of the system is the cleanest I have seen in any d20 book.



That's exactly what I needed - thanks very much.

(And you just sold another book.)

Thanks again.


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## The_Spider (Dec 4, 2004)

*quick question for wulf*

The grim tales hero classes are far supperior to d&d core classes, so I was thinking about letting them freely multiclass with core classes with some nerfing to balance it out and still allow the cool custimization hero classes allow, for example a player could have a barbarian3/rogue3/fast hero 3. But the "hero classes" would not count, for standard character feat progression every 3 character levels. Meaning the character would have only 2 bonus feats for character level at 6 instead of 3 but would pick up from the 3 levels in fast hero, 1 feat and 2 talents from the fast hero class. The hero classes give a feat or talent every level, so even this may not be enough to put them on equal ground with the D&D core classes.

I want to use core d&d classes for slavelords of cydonia, along with grim tales "hero classes". What do you suggest for feat progression for the hero classes so that they could be freely multi classed with core classes from th PHB and blance out?  I want to use both for Cydonia, excluding core magic using classes. Do you follow me wulf, what do you suggest? Many thanks for your imput.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 4, 2004)

The_Spider said:
			
		

> I want to use core d&d classes for slavelords of cydonia, along with grim tales "hero classes". What do you suggest for feat progression for the hero classes so that they could be freely multi classed with core classes from th PHB and blance out?




Well, personally I wouldn't mix D&D classes with GT classes, since there are feats and talents within GT to allow you to pretty much replicate any D&D class anyway.

But if you were insistent on it-- and there are some valid arguments in favor of it, not the least of which is that they are familiar already and it's nice to just pick up a "package" class instead of having to custom build all your abilities-- then I would suggest you just allow free multiclassing.

I disagree that the hero classes are "far superior to" the D&D classes-- barbarian and rogue spring to mind quickly as examples of very powerful D&D classes when compared to what you'd have to invest in GT in order to replicate them. (You should also note that D&D classes have better saving throws across the board than hero classes.)

So there's no reason to nerf anything. Let them multiclass freely if you want, and don't change the feat progression (1 per 3 character levels, same as always).

I will reiterate, though, I don't recommend mixing class types. Your players will quickly find some min-max combos you'll regret. If you want to run Slavelords, the easiest and cleanest way to do it is just use Grim Tales flat out-- especially as it seems you already own it. It's still very obviously d20 and your players will pick it up very quickly despite what they may have to "unlearn" from playing D&D.

Wulf


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## tameszu (Dec 5, 2004)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> As far as running it with D&D or Star Wars characters, it would probably work although magic and the Force might have to be toned down a bit.  It's a low-magic setting so any abundance of magic would definitely change the challenge level substantially.  If you used non-casting and non-Force characters, you could probably run with very little tweaking.
> 
> The beauty of SoC is that you can run it with characters from very timelines and it still works.  Using D&D/fantasy characters would be reminiscent of the old Barrier Peaks module where the PC's find weird alien tech.  In the Star Wars universe, it could be a new and previously undiscovered alien race.  Both would be really cool actually.






			
				The_Spider said:
			
		

> I want to use core d&d classes for slavelords of cydonia, along with grim tales "hero classes". What do you suggest for feat progression for the hero classes so that they could be freely multi classed with core classes from th PHB and blance out? I want to use both for Cydonia, excluding core magic using classes.




Hi all! I'm Eric, one of the lead writers on this project, and I just wanted to respond to the prospects of running _Slavelords_ with non-GT characters. Running _Slavelords_ with D&D or Star Wars characters, even loaded with magic and Force powers, might actually be a decent idea for certain types of GMs and player groups. It would certainly change the game's feel, but not necessarily in a bad way.

The campaign, as written for Grim Tales PCs, was written to be _gritty_. That is, the stories are low magic, highly challenging, and will sometimes require either (or both) strong roleplaying and intensely careful play to succeed without casualties--especially during the epic war scenes. We aren't messing around when we say that the PCs will get thrown into the middle of a _war_.

Using magic or force-empowered characters might be a good idea for GMs who would prefer to allow their characters more of a margin for error and to engage in more "kick down the door"-type play. The campaign would definitely still be challenging. Allowing the PCs to have an array of powers that the natives don't would also potentially enhance the "PCs-as-mysterious-outsiders" roleplaying hook--which might increase some of the _political_ challenges, as possessing unique powers would make the PCs even more conspicuous and desirable as commodities or targets for the planet's powers-that-be.

One decision you'd have to consider is whether to alter rules for acquiring new powers that depend on acquiring specific resources or mentorship, especially if you start the PCs at a low level, as they will be seriously cut off from home.

It's great to see that you're interested in the book--Matt and I are definitely excited to read what you have to think!


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## scourger (Dec 6, 2004)

Thanks, Eric.  I'm currently running a D&D game with jedi, judges & mutants thrown in the mix.  I like it, and I'll look forward to reading SoC to see if I can do a similar cross-genre thing with it.

P.S.: When will it be in stores?

P.P.S.: Anyone at BAG interested in swapping SoC for Relics & Rituals Olympus?  It's a gorgeous book that I bought on impulse just to read (which I have done).


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## GlassJaw (Dec 6, 2004)

For those that have been waiting patiently (or not so patiently as the case may be) for my review, it is now "live".  Please be gentle - it's my first bigtime review!

Thanks again to Wulf for being so accomodating and letting me check out the book.

If anyone has any other questions after reading the review, let me know.


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## Fenris (Dec 6, 2004)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> For those that have been waiting patiently (or not so patiently as the case may be) for my review, it is now "live".  Please be gentle - it's my first bigtime review!
> 
> Thanks again to Wulf for being so accomodating and letting me check out the book.
> 
> If anyone has any other questions after reading the review, let me know.




Good job GJ. But don't you think you may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater? There are a few too many plot details thrown out for my comfort. Especially at the end. The look on your players faces may not be so great if they know it's coming from reading a review.

Other than that, thanks!


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## GlassJaw (Dec 6, 2004)

> The look on your players faces may not be so great if they know it's coming from reading a review.




Well before I wrote the review I decided to include specific examples from the book that I liked and disliked.  I just felt that was the best way to write a review of this book.  I did preface the review with a discplaimer that it did contain spoilers.

Comments are welcome though.  Post them in the review if you feel so inclined.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Dec 7, 2004)

Nice review, GlassJaw.

I'm a little less excited after reading it.  It still looks awesome, and I'm so thrilled with GT that I'll get it anyway, but it looks like some things are integral to it that I wouldn't want to use (at least on first glance).

Specifically, the crystal weapons with charges are a little too much.  They are more high-tech than I would like, and the 'spend a charge, get an effect' routine seems a little arcade-y.  Hopefully, I'll feel differently when I read it all.

I'm also a little concerned about the war section, as a couple of my players aren't tactically-oriented, and may feel a little left out of the action.


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## Hammerhead (Dec 7, 2004)

Really? I think the whole idea of the crystal weapons sounds cool.

Do we have any idea when this will be out?


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## GlassJaw (Dec 7, 2004)

> Specifically, the crystal weapons with charges are a little too much. They are more high-tech than I would like, and the 'spend a charge, get an effect' routine seems a little arcade-y. Hopefully, I'll feel differently when I read it all.




Well they are more than just ammo clips.  As you add more crystals, you enhance the weapon itself.  You can also choose the type of crystal to gain different effects.  As far as the charges go, it's not different than a supply of arrows.



> I'm also a little concerned about the war section, as a couple of my players aren't tactically-oriented, and may feel a little left out of the action.




The mass combat system has rules for running large battles without a battlemat.  I found this to be a great addition as it adds values for a lot of players, even though I love using minis and battlemats.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 7, 2004)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Specifically, the crystal weapons with charges are a little too much.  They are more high-tech than I would like, and the 'spend a charge, get an effect' routine seems a little arcade-y.  Hopefully, I'll feel differently when I read it all.




They're there to sub in for magical energy weapons. If you drop them out, make sure there's something else to take their place so that melee attacks can bump up the damage to cross the MDT of the bigger, badder foes. 



> I'm also a little concerned about the war section, as a couple of my players aren't tactically-oriented, and may feel a little left out of the action.




This criticism wouldn't be as much of a worry for me, seriously. 

But I am glad you're willing to support it anyway.


Wulf


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## tameszu (Dec 7, 2004)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Specifically, the crystal weapons with charges are a little too much.  They are more high-tech than I would like, and the 'spend a charge, get an effect' routine seems a little arcade-y.  Hopefully, I'll feel differently when I read it all.




You can definitely thank Ben for toning down the weapons so that they definitely _don't_ feel arcade-y as they might have--actually, are these your thoughts after checking out the weapons sheet Ben posted? Also, when you see the scale of some of the challenges the PCs are up against in the later chapters, you may revise your opinion of the necessity of the crystal weaps. They are definitely somewhat technological, but definitely not "high" tech--sort of mystical tech. At most, maybe a couple of notches below Dune... 

As for the war section, almost every war scene has a standard individual-scale combat attached to it. And at the margin, you can always just narrate them through...



			
				GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Please be gentle - it's my first bigtime review!




Sort of had the same thought myself--it's our first bigtime book!


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Dec 7, 2004)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> The mass combat system has rules for running large battles without a battlemat.  I found this to be a great addition as it adds values for a lot of players, even though I love using minis and battlemats.




I meant 'tactically minded' as in 'not interested in being a leader of troops' as opposed to tactical, battle-mat type combat.  If there are other things I could work in for them to do, it's no big deal.  The way starship combat is done in Traveller allows everyone to contribute in some way (or at least feel like they are).  Those with sensor skills can add 'to hit' bonuses by making a skill check, for example.  I'll just have to figure out a way so that the couple of players that aren't experienced with unit tactics and usually don't play combat oriented characters could still feel like they are contributing in a significant way.  I could also be mis-interpreting how significant a role the mass combat plays, too, in which case, never mind 

The energy weapons make take a little thought, too.  It's more of a flavor thing than anything else, so if I can come up with another way to accomplish the same thing, we're good to go.  I haven't read the weapon sheet -- I was trying to avoid reading too much prior to buying it.  (And that tells you how much I like GT that I'm going to buy SoC sight-unseen.)

Part of my problem is that just reading the title and blurb lo those many months ago got me thinking, and in between then and now I'd kinda tinkered with my own Barsoom/Callisto/Gor type setting and had hoped to just wrap it around SoC.  I'd been thinking 'fish out of water' characters rather than hardened adventurers, and I'll have to adjust.

Definitely looking forward to starting after New Years, in any event.


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## scourger (Dec 7, 2004)

It's a good review, Glassjaw.  Thanks.  Here's a link:

http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=active&reviewer=GlassJaw&product=SoC

Even though I don't have Grim Tales, I'm still looking forward to Slavelords of Cydonia.  It sounds like a great read at the _very_ least.  It sounds as if it may be a great enough campaign to convert to a d20 system more familiar to my group.


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## tameszu (Dec 7, 2004)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> I'll just have to figure out a way so that the couple of players that aren't experienced with unit tactics and usually don't play combat oriented characters could still feel like they are contributing in a significant way.  I could also be mis-interpreting how significant a role the mass combat plays, too, in which case, never mind




We definitely recognized that mass combat wasn't for everyone--even more so when designing for GT, because with GT, you have to deal characters that might _seriously_ have a tough time in straight up combat situations. Although, ironically, .

Basically, the middle of Book 4 and parts of Book 5 have elements that encourage mass combat events to encourage the feel of a full-out war. But, again, many of the scenes have non-combat hooks and shortcuts. Both Matt and I are pretty political people, so there's quite a bit you can do without fighting.



			
				Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> The energy weapons make take a little thought, too.  It's more of a flavor thing than anything else, so if I can come up with another way to accomplish the same thing, we're good to go.  I haven't read the weapon sheet -- I was trying to avoid reading too much prior to buying it.  (And that tells you how much I like GT that I'm going to buy SoC sight-unseen.)




Well, check out both the flavour and the mechanics before you write them off...I hope that in your case, the feel of the world's tech level and the overall setting doesn't swing completely away from the direction you're thinking, but we certainly didn't just gratuitously throw in the crystal weapons.



			
				Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Part of my problem is that just reading the title and blurb lo those many months ago got me thinking, and in between then and now I'd kinda tinkered with my own Barsoom/Callisto/Gor type setting and had hoped to just wrap it around SoC.  I'd been thinking 'fish out of water' characters rather than hardened adventurers, and I'll have to adjust.




If you were thinking "fish-out-of-water," you'll definitely like it. Or at the very least, you will for around the first 10 levels! We figured that getting kicked around a lot by an entire planet full of sorta evil lizard-guys for 10 PC levels might make most people a little hardened...


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## GlassJaw (Dec 7, 2004)

> We figured that getting kicked around a lot by an entire planet full of sorta evil lizard-guys for 10 PC levels might make most people a little hardened...




Very true.  The players better get used to being slaves early on in the campaign...


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 7, 2004)

tameszu said:
			
		

> Both Matt and I are pretty political people, so there's quite a bit you can do without fighting.




Yes, in early drafts of the work, the implacably evil lethid, bent on the subjugation of all life, could be bested with a single Diplomacy roll and the "Big Hippie Hug Fest" talent.


----------



## Yair (Dec 7, 2004)

The review was excellent, thank you!

It does seem that the adventure is dependant on character-survival; can Cydonian characters rise up to replace the PCs if some die off? Does the book contains advice on how to handle PC deaths?

Yair, a.k.a the "prepare two characters" DM


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## GlassJaw (Dec 7, 2004)

> Does the book contains advice on how to handle PC deaths?




It does somewhat.  In the Arena section, there is some advice about using the Arena for introducing new characters.  It's a faily likey spot for new characters to be introduced.

There is also a resistance (a couple of them actually) on Cydonia that would fit easily as a source for new characters.  There are also humans on Cydonia although the majority of them are slaves.  It's conceivable that they could rise up like the PC's as well.


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## tameszu (Dec 8, 2004)

Yair said:
			
		

> can Cydonian characters rise up to replace the PCs if some die off? Does the book contains advice on how to handle PC deaths?




I should add that a number of the new races in the book are fully templatable and game-balanced for PC use--including all 6 sli'ess races--so a charitable GM could provide a unique treat for any player who loses a character, either permanently or temporarily. 

BTW, we did actually consider a character tree concept (well, I was a fan) with a mechanic for level advancement and plotlines occurring in absentia, but it didn't make the cut. It may have been for the best, given how much substantive Cydonia content we needed to fit in there.


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## Fenris (Dec 8, 2004)

tameszu said:
			
		

> I should add that we designed a number of the new races fully templatable and game-balanced for PC use--including all 6 sli'ess races--so a charitable GM could provide a unique treat for any player who loses a character, either permanently or temporarily.
> 
> BTW, we did actually consider a character tree concept (well, I was a fan) with a mechanic for level advancement and plotlines occurring in absentia, but it didn't make the cut. It may have been for the best, given how much substantive Cydonia content we needed to fit in there.




Maybe it could be made into a web enhancement if it was developed. I would be interested in that! Heck, even an outline could help.


----------



## tameszu (Dec 8, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Maybe it could be made into a web enhancement if it was developed. I would be interested in that! Heck, even an outline could help.




Just to clarify, do you mean the templatable races or the character tree or both?

Although the character tree didn't make it into the book, everything you need to create a PC version of the races I alluded to is included in _Slavelords_.

As for writing up a character tree web enhancement, you'd have to ask Ben for sure, but I'd consider it...


----------



## Fenris (Dec 8, 2004)

The character tree aspect. Especially the level advancement and plot lines occuring in absentia.

OK,

Santa Wulf,
Could we please see something like this as a web enhancement to Soc? (Heck anything else you guys couldn't pack into the print book would probably make great web enhancements). I don't want to be greedy, but if the stuff is just laying around..........


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 8, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Santa Wulf,
> Could we please see something like this as a web enhancement to Soc? (Heck anything else you guys couldn't pack into the print book would probably make great web enhancements). I don't want to be greedy, but if the stuff is just laying around..........




Unfortunately in this case, "didn't make the cut" meant "never had time to develop it fully."

I might want to revisit it for future adventure sourcebooks, though, so you might see it eventually.

Last night I spent getting the Map Booklet ready to go-- just waiting for Mr. Kelley to post it to the downloads section. It's worth popping over to the Bad Axe Games site occasionally to look for new things.

We'll also have a few things up on RPGnow before too much longer... 


Wulf


----------



## Fenris (Dec 8, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Unfortunately in this case, "didn't make the cut" meant "never had time to develop it fully."
> 
> I might want to revisit it for future adventure sourcebooks, though, so you might see it eventually.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I was afraid that "didn't make the cut" meant "never had time to develop it fully" as well but I had hope    I would like to see it though so save a few pages in the next publication.

Yeah Maps! I love maps, it really helps me visualize the world. I check the Bad Axe downloads regularly and will look forward to seeing it.

Could you mention titles or subjects that we will see on RPGnow soon? If not I understand, but I need to make my shopping list ahead of time since SoC will take up my budget for a while.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 8, 2004)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Could you mention titles or subjects that we will see on RPGnow soon? If not I understand, but I need to make my shopping list ahead of time since SoC will take up my budget for a while.




-- Grim Tales Creature Creation Bundle (includes automated Excel spreadsheet for calculating CR)

-- Grim Tales Gamemaster Bundle (includes spreadsheet for tracking EL and XP, as well as the "Chi Rho" discussion)

-- Other "rules bundles" from Grim Tales (Spellcasting, Horror, Vehicles, Mass Combat).

I'm still trying to decide on pricing and possible bundles, so I'm open to suggestions.

Oh, and _Heroes of High Favor: Dwarves_ might as well go up...


Wulf


----------



## Lysander (Dec 9, 2004)

I've just ordered a copy of both Grim Tales and SoC, as they look to be exactly what I've been looking for; I'm a fan of d20 Modern, but there were a few areas, notably magic, that I wanted to tweak. Looks like the work's been done for me!

Anyway, as I eagerly await my new books, I have a quick question about SoC:

Recently, my players have been itching to play themselves in some sort of modern game as a change of pace (and, perhaps, to improve roleplaying); do you think this sort of thing could work with SoC?  I imagine I could concoct some initial hook, but is the rest of the campaign survivable for "regular joes," even heroic incarnations thereof?

In short, is there enough opportunity for "mundanes" to grow into the epic heroes of the endgame? If there is, it certainly sounds like a blast, and I think my players would get a kick out of the ride.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 9, 2004)

Lysander said:
			
		

> Recently, my players have been itching to play themselves in some sort of modern game as a change of pace (and, perhaps, to improve roleplaying); do you think this sort of thing could work with SoC?  I imagine I could concoct some initial hook, but is the rest of the campaign survivable for "regular joes," even heroic incarnations thereof?
> 
> In short, is there enough opportunity for "mundanes" to grow into the epic heroes of the endgame? If there is, it certainly sounds like a blast, and I think my players would get a kick out of the ride.




Absolutely! It would be a blast, and here's how I'd do it:

Rule Zero: Don't tell them what they're going to be playing.

Now, when you sit down to play, make each player decide the _ranking_ of each of his own attributes-- not actual numbers, just have them order them from top to bottom in order of what they think their highest attribute would be to their lowest. 

Hopefully you've got a couple of jocks or veterans in your group otherwise you could end up with a lot of pudgy smart heroes. 

Once the players have ranked themselves, assign them the Elite array in the order they laid out for themselves: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

This eliminates any argument over whether "I think I have a 13 Charisma!" "No way, Joe, you're a 12 at best!" and makes sure everybody is on the same playing field.

Let them take whatever class they want. Grim Tales has very flexible skill choices, too, so let them pick their own skills according to GT.

For starting gear, I'd let them start with anything they want, within reason. Certainly any kind of K-Mart scale firepower they want-- any kind of hunting gear, really.

As for hooking them into the adventure, you could pitch the idea of a "hunting trip gone bad," which will probably lead them to think they're in some kind of Horror game-- which is fine! Have them stumble across the archaelogist's encampment and just go from there.

Slavelords is absolutely a 1st (mundane) through 20th (epic hero) kind of campaign-- and Grim Tales in general is set up so that characters tend to survive more through wits and roleplaying (ok, and action dice...) than combat and magic, anyway. 

Once the players are caught and "marooned" on Cydonia, they'll have access to all the resources they need to finish the campaign. (Not that I'd throw away those Motorola walkie-talkies they brought along...)

I think your players will take to it like fish to water.

Frankly, I'm jealous of your game... sounds like it will be a blast...

Wulf


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## Lysander (Dec 9, 2004)

> Rule Zero: Don't tell them what they're going to be playing.




This is exactly what I was thinking!

Your plan for assigning stats sounds both simple and fair, and should alleviate any protracted discussions during character creation. Thanks!



> Hopefully you've got a couple of jocks or veterans in your group otherwise you could end up with a lot of pudgy smart heroes.




Oh, I certainly have a Charismatic and a Dedicated, but I do think there will be an inevitable bias towards the more mental classes, and towards computers and technology especially. Sight unseen, I'm hoping SoC will have some way to reward those kinds of skills. 



> Frankly, I'm jealous of your game... sounds like it will be a blast...




If I get it up and running, I'll try and keep you posted. Who knows, maybe my first story hour is in the works!

Thanks for the reply, Wulf.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 9, 2004)

Lysander said:
			
		

> Oh, I certainly have a Charismatic and a Dedicated, but I do think there will be an inevitable bias towards the more mental classes, and towards computers and technology especially. Sight unseen, I'm hoping SoC will have some way to reward those kinds of skills.




Well, while it's appropriate for the characters to _start_ as analogues to the players, there is no reason that they can't evolve into something else-- something more physically heroic.

A few months in the gladiatorial slave pits can make a Strong, Tough, or Fast out of the pudgiest Smart guy. 

... If they survive...

EDIT: In case you missed it, GlassJaw's review goes into some detail on the individual books, so you can get a feel for what your friends will face (and overcome...)

http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=active&reviewer=GlassJaw&product=SoC


Wulf


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## Maester Luwin (Dec 9, 2004)

You could also do the Barsoom like thing & say that Earth Pc's have an edge physicaly due to higher gravity, difference in atmosphere, ect. (& adjust players stats +2 to str, dex, con, or all 3). Just an idea if everybody takes al smart(ect.) Pc's. Thanks Maester Luwin


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## scourger (Dec 10, 2004)

I like The Average Joe campaign idea.  Reminds me of V&V.  

Also, map downloads are invaluable.  I am using one in a game now to keep simple, accurate track of the rooms the PCs have explored.


----------



## Piratecat (Dec 10, 2004)

I've been reading SLoC over the last week, and I have to say that I'm floored. I'm seriously considering running this when my normal campaign finishes.  If we take a sabbatical early next year (three group members will be new parents) I'm probably going to be starting this with 1920's characters. 

There's a few reasons I'm so impressed:

 - Really nasty bad guys. The flavor text on the Lethid menace and the reptilian Sli'ess is just great: wonderfully detailed culture and equipment and politics, well balanced bad guys. I can do great things with these villians. Better yet, I like the array of "bonus" Cydonian monsters. They're all flavorful and well integrated.

- Flexible. You could run this equally well as "John Carter of Mars" with Victorian characters, "Mad Max vs. the Martian Overlords" with post-apocalyptic characters, "Cthulhian kidnap" with insanity rules, or "Magic against scales!" with classic fantasy characters (using either Grim Tales or regular D&D to stat the heroes.) I never thought I'd see a setting and adventure where this is true. To be honest, I'm more than a little surprised by its flexibility.

- Focused. It's written the way more modules should be: adventure seeds/outlines with all the details you need, but none of the froofy stuff that an experienced DM likes to add himself. The organization is generally excellent as it lays out the different paths that the adventure can take - and there are a lot of them - because the text always refers you to page numbers for other relevant information you need. By anticipating different ways that the adventure can flow and including adventures that include most eventualities, the authors have provided a selection of fun choices that the DM can pick and choose from when planning the game.

Good stuff.


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist (Dec 10, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> -- Grim Tales Creature Creation Bundle (includes automated Excel spreadsheet for calculating CR)
> 
> -- Grim Tales Gamemaster Bundle (includes spreadsheet for tracking EL and XP, as well as the "Chi Rho" discussion)
> 
> ...




I'd love a Creature Creator.  I'd love a Character Creator.  As they're spreadsheets I'd say like 5$ or so apiece?  If you're bundling them with PDFs of some sort, a bit higher, but any bundle put out I'd be buying mostly for the spreadsheets.  Spreadsheets are WONDERFUL.

I'd get about five times the mileage out of GT as I am now if there were an excel character generator out there.  I still use Modern with GT extra rules added on just because I can make Modern PCs in about 1/6th the time.

--fje


----------



## GlassJaw (Dec 10, 2004)

> I'm seriously considering running this when my normal campaign finishes. If we take a sabbatical early next year (three group members will be new parents) I'm probably going to be starting this with 1920's characters.




Ooh, can I play?!  Oh wait, I already read it...damn you Wulf!!!


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 11, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> The organization is generally excellent as it lays out the different paths that the adventure can take - and there are a lot of them - because the text always refers you to page numbers for other relevant information you need.




And that wasn't hard to do, all that cross linking, oh no, not at all.   



			
				GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Ooh, can I play?!  Oh wait, I already read it...damn you Wulf!!!




You don't have to know Kevin very well at all to realize that having the book on hand won't help much.   

There are really only a couple of major spoiler moments-- 



Spoiler



first appearance of the sli'ess through the gate, Vert'jaal's secret, and the end of the Emperor.


 Am I missing anything?

But really, there are so many diverse personalities and machinations going on, I reckon Kev could spin this a thousand ways.

Not that I'm trying to encourage PC to let you play. I'm trying to encourage him to let _ME_ play!


Wulf


----------



## scourger (Dec 11, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I've been reading SLoC over the last week...




Lucky!  I haven't seen it yet at my FLGS.  Thanks for the insight, though.  It just makes me want it all the more.


----------



## Maester Luwin (Dec 11, 2004)

Thanks Wulf for all your insight & info! The way you came up for allowing the players to play them selves was great! Maester Luwin


----------



## Old One (Dec 11, 2004)

*Yes, please...*



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> -- Grim Tales Creature Creation Bundle (includes automated Excel spreadsheet for calculating CR)
> 
> -- Grim Tales Gamemaster Bundle (includes spreadsheet for tracking EL and XP, as well as the "Chi Rho" discussion)
> 
> ...




Wulf,

I would love to see Critter Creation Bundle (w/spreadsheet), Character Creation Bundle (w/ form-fill PC sheet), GM Bundle and Mass Combat.  Not sure what is reasonable for each individual bundle...guess it would depend on amount of useful yummy stuff.

~ Old One


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 11, 2004)

Old One said:
			
		

> I would love to see Critter Creation Bundle (w/spreadsheet), Character Creation Bundle (w/ form-fill PC sheet), GM Bundle and Mass Combat.




What sorts of things will the Character Creator need to do?

(And Old One, drop me an email regardless.)

Wulf


----------



## wilrich (Dec 11, 2004)

This sounds great!  Mark down another one sold!  One question -- when can we expect to see it in the stores?  I am waiting impatiently!

Thank!


----------



## Piratecat (Dec 11, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> What sorts of things will the Character Creator need to do?




I'd love to see something like the superb Heroforge engine, stripped down for Grim Tales.  This would be ideal for me; Heroforge is the best I've seen at letting you easily add skill points, and it does a great job at auto-calculating everything.  Even better, it's open source I believe, so an Excel guru could build off of it after stripping out the D&D material.

Page 1: House rules and variants. Here's where you would select all of your one/two/three skull (and action point) variants, and say whether or not you were using SLoC. 

Page 2: Race & Stats, including sli'ess sub-races and stats if you selected SLoC on the House Rules page. This page summarizes race and class abilities (from talents and feats) and gives the stat block.

Page 2.5 (appears when necessary, as triggered by a check-box on page 2): Lethid templates.

Page 3: Classes.

Page 4: Skills.

Page 5: Languages (unless consolidated into page 3.)

Page 6: Feats.

Page 7: Talents.

Page 8: Spells and spell burn (triggers spell selection page, as per Heroforge.) Includes a place to add your own psionics and spell-like abilities, including number of times per day.

Page 9: Armor

Page 10: Attacks

Page 11: Enhancements

Page 12 & 13: Character sheet 1 & 2.

Page 14: (only when needed) Spell summary character sheet.


----------



## Von Ether (Dec 12, 2004)

So Slavelords has a story hooks for a post-apok game?

Redline and Cydonia, mmmmm. good.

So would Creep be the unrefined stuff that powers the pylons?


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 12, 2004)

Von Ether said:
			
		

> So Slavelords has a story hooks for a post-apok game?
> 
> Redline and Cydonia, mmmmm. good.
> 
> So would Creep be the unrefined stuff that powers the pylons?




Yep, that would work. 

Not a lot of vehicles on Cydonia, but you could easily import what vehicles are provided in Redline into the campaign. Could make it _very interesting_.

The Sli'ess are likely to have big gliders or ornithopters, plus anti-grav vehicles. There are a few anti-grav platforms mentioned in the text, but not in great detail.


Wulf


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## tameszu (Dec 12, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I've been reading SLoC over the last week, and I have to say that I'm floored. I'm seriously considering running this when my normal campaign finishes.  If we take a sabbatical early next year (three group members will be new parents) I'm probably going to be starting this with 1920's characters.




Thanks for the comment, Kevin--it means a lot!

And that campaign sounds like it would rock...would love to hear about how it goes...no doubt, you'd run it better than I or Matt could ever imagine.


----------



## Von Ether (Dec 13, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> ... plus anti-grav vehicles. Wulf




"I guess I have start saying I can drive the s*** out of anything with -- and without -- wheels. Get in, mutie!"


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## Old One (Dec 13, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> What sorts of things will the Character Creator need to do?
> 
> (And Old One, drop me an email regardless.)
> 
> Wulf




Wulf,

Thanks for the sheet...

What Kevin said on the Character Creator side...Heroforge or something similar would be awesome.

~ Old One


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 14, 2004)

The map booklet is now available for download at the Bad Axe Games website.

http://www.badaxegames.com/mm/pdf/gt_slavelords_web_extra.pdf

If you are a player, be warned that the map booklet contains spoilers.


Wulf


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## GlassJaw (Dec 14, 2004)

> The map booklet is now available for download at the Bad Axe Games website.




Awesome.  This would be a huge help for anyone running SoC.


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## Piratecat (Dec 14, 2004)

I keep reading the thing, and it just keeps getting better. I'm loving the breakdown of behind-the-scenes political machiniations and how'll they'll affect the PCs, allowing the DM to get them as much or as little involved in the political aspect as the group wants -- and offering good alternatives if that isn't their thing.

I keep running across fantastic crunch, and then on the same page see sneaky plot twists that do my heart good. It's a great combination.


----------



## tameszu (Dec 18, 2004)

Just wanted to clarify an ambiguity about the En World review: as GlassJaw correctly writes in his review, _Slavelords_ is a 238-page hardcover. Its suggested retail price is $34.95.

(The information for a shorter, perfect bound book were submitted to En World before we realized how massive the final product would be.)


----------



## JoeGKushner (Dec 19, 2004)

This may sound a little off but...

I've been reading the Black Company book for a while now. It's magic system is different than Grim Tales (although people can still take damage from spellcasting!) and was wondering... do you think that it would be difficult to run Slavelords with it? Very similiar to d20 fantasy save combat is more dangerous, healing less frequent. Are there enough places for characters to rest? Since Grim Tales doesn't necessarily have anyone filling the cleric role, I imagine so.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 19, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> This may sound a little off but...
> 
> I've been reading the Black Company book for a while now. Do you think that it would be difficult to run Slavelords with it?




I haven't seen Black Company yet, but I would be surprised if it would be "difficult" to run Slavelords with it.

I don't know how it would fit, fluff-wise...

Wulf


----------



## BryonD (Dec 19, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Are there enough places for characters to rest? Since Grim Tales doesn't necessarily have anyone filling the cleric role, I imagine so.




I can answer that part.

The  structure of Slavelords is very much open to GM control.

The various mini adventures that make up the story can be mixed and match in a wide variety of ways.  A GM can have the party neck deep in three different parts at one time, or take them individually.  They can go back to back or be spread out with some down time between.  Its like adventure legos - cool pieces that you can put together the way you want.  So you can give the party as much or as little down time as you see fit.


----------



## tameszu (Dec 19, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I've been reading the Black Company book for a while now. It's magic system is different than Grim Tales (although people can still take damage from spellcasting!) and was wondering... do you think that it would be difficult to run Slavelords with it? Very similiar to d20 fantasy save combat is more dangerous, healing less frequent.




I'm not familiar with Black Company, but the description of "similar to d20 fantasy save combat is more dangerous, healing less frequent" is completely consistent with a description of GT.

As far as magic system goes, _Slavelords_ is a rather low magic setting. Spellcasting enemies do appear, along with a new variant spellcasting system and it's possible to play a spellcasting character, although they may find advancement opportunities limited, but on the whole, I'd say that 70-80% of the book is magic-free (depending on whether you count psionics).

ByronD's description is also completely spot-on--opportunities to rest are to a great degree up to the GM's descretion, although it also greatly depends on the scene and how much leeway you want to give to "realism." In particular, some of the more intense battle passages during the climax of the "war" section may be challenging because of the compressed time frame.

BTW, BryonD, where and when did you get your copy? Any thoughts?


----------



## drnuncheon (Dec 19, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Its like adventure legos




Sold.

Well, I was before anyway, but "adventure Legos" is just a cool phrase. 

Now I need to figure out where the heck I'm going to fit it in to my schedule.

J


----------



## BryonD (Dec 20, 2004)

tameszu said:
			
		

> BTW, BryonD, where and when did you get your copy? Any thoughts?




I received my copy directly from the source.

I don't really know what else there is to say in regard to the quality.
I've mainly read the setting specific appencies and the first two chapters and skimmed the rest.  But I'm really blown away.  I expected very good and got better.  I've read chapter one several times over now because I really want to absorb all of the texture.  

I guess I am a hair intimidated.  But not in a bad way.  More like when I first rode a roller coaster at age 9.  

It is going to be great.  But its going to be work.  Real fun work.

I'm planning to set it in June 1918.  The PCs will be American Soldiers with the "great fortune" of getting sent to Central America to secure a potential new energy source, instead of being shipped off to France.

There is plentiful material there for you to easily play quite a few sessions in whatever genre you prefer.  Then the point of no return comes and it won't matter how you got there.

Edit: I just realized that you are one of the authors.  um, Awesome.  Now go away and write something else.  

Anyway, from that point of view, I'd say that I pretty much never run modules.  I've got a multi-year game going that is all my own creation, setting and plot.  So I think I am a pretty good GM.  I'm good enough to run this thing, but not good enough to have come up with it myself.  I think this is exactly the kind of thing that can take my game up one more notch.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 20, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> I'm good enough to run this thing, but not good enough to have come up with it myself.




Wish I'd had that quote to put on the cover of the book. That's about as close to a mission statement as I can imagine. All this time chatting back and forth and we never realized: You're my target customer, man!


Wulf


----------



## scourger (Dec 20, 2004)

Sounds like another good sound bite for a web site.

By the way, it would be nice if the BAG web site were updated to allow PayPal purchase of this item directly from the publisher.  I am waiting to see if I get this week or next month for my birthday.  After that I'll probably buy it direct or from an eBay store.  

Also, Wulf _et al_, please put a link in your sig to the BAG web site.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 20, 2004)

scourger said:
			
		

> By the way, it would be nice if the BAG web site were updated to allow PayPal purchase of this item directly from the publisher.  I am waiting to see if I get this week or next month for my birthday.  After that I'll probably buy it direct or from an eBay store.




I don't generally put our books up for sale on our site until I am sure they've been received at retail. (Just trying to play fair with our retailers.) Trust me, that link will go live ASAP.  



> Also, Wulf _et al_, please put a link in your sig to the BAG web site.




I don't often use my sig as most of my posts are pretty brief. I'll try to remember to use it to sign off anyway, if you promise to try to remember www.badaxegames.com. It's tough, I know.   

Wulf
www.badaxegames.com


----------



## Piratecat (Dec 20, 2004)

When I run this I expect to start the game in the early 1920's. I'll start the PCs in an African coastal town and have some fun getting them into the interior. Once they arrive, I'll slide into the module itself.

It's a little unclear (or rather, left open) where the starting action takes place. The native culture and names seem African to me, but jaguars (referenced in the module) are only located in Latin America. I'll have to consider changing the nature of the natives a little and shifting the game to Belize or Brazil instead. Alternatively, I'll keep the action in Africa and use a different predator.

One great idea for Africa, though; if the lethid menace has been hiding there, I see a lot of fun in lethid-infested lions or cape buffalo. Hoo boy, talk about scary.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 20, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> It's a little unclear (or rather, left open) where the starting action takes place. The native culture and names seem African to me, but jaguars (referenced in the module) are only located in Latin America. I'll have to consider changing the nature of the natives a little and shifting the game to Belize or Brazil instead. Alternatively, I'll keep the action in Africa and use a different predator.




Any leopard-like creature will do. 

Although-- gods!-- cheetahs would be _real bad._

Africa works better and was probably more what the authors had in mind (especially as later books talk about rgleth-elephants a-comin' through the portal... but also bears... 

You know, just mix and match.

Cause to me, there's nothing scarier than a shark on an elephant's back, just trampling and eating everything they see. _--Jack Handy_

Wulf


----------



## scourger (Dec 21, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I don't generally put our books up for sale on our site until I am sure they've been received at retail. (Just trying to play fair with our retailers.) Trust me, that link will go live ASAP.
> 
> I don't often use my sig as most of my posts are pretty brief. I'll try to remember to use it to sign off anyway, if you promise to try to remember www.badaxegames.com. It's tough, I know.
> 
> ...





I wish I could trust my FLGS to get it in stock or special order it for me. They've been better lately, but I just don't want to chance missing this one.

GOOGLE finds the web site everytime, but I took the radical step of adding it to my favorites!

Thanks!


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 21, 2004)

scourger said:
			
		

> I wish I could trust my FLGS to get it in stock or special order it for me. They've been better lately, but I just don't want to chance missing this one.




I will set aside a copy for you.


----------



## Verequus (Dec 21, 2004)

Will you ship SoC to continental europe, too? Your own store doesn't send books directly abroad, so I would have to look/ask at my FLGS. I'm still wondering though, if I'd use SoC directly or as a baseline for an own campaign, which could really profit from your book. Depends probably from the work I can do. ;-)


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 21, 2004)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Will you ship SoC to continental europe, too? Your own store doesn't send books directly abroad, so I would have to look/ask at my FLGS.




Our books are sold abroad, through major distributors, though I cannot tell you specifically which retailers.

You can always order from Amazon of course.

Finally, if you are willing to pay shipping costs and make arrangements with me in advance, I can certainly ship a copy overseas for you. (It's better if you buy several Bad Axe books at once, of course, because shipping overseas isn't cheap...)


Wulf


----------



## Verequus (Dec 21, 2004)

Thank you for the last option - I'll have to consider it, because I know of Amazon's rates. Oh, how much will cost the shipping, if you would send it me directly? Need it for my calculations.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 21, 2004)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Thank you for the last option - I'll have to consider it, because I know of Amazon's rates. Oh, how much will cost the shipping, if you would send it me directly? Need it for my calculations.




Depends on where you are. The USPS has charged me anywhere from $6 to $20 for shipping overseas. I can tell you that airmail is generally only a few dollars more than surface, and certainly worth the added expense to cut down shipping time.

Wulf


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## Verequus (Dec 21, 2004)

Like my location says: Somewhere in Bavaria, Germany. ;-) How much is the extra cost for airmail and how many weeks are saved through this option usually?


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## Verequus (Dec 24, 2004)

After calculating the price I would pay at amazon.com (amazon.de didn't offer SoC (while having a specific error page), but Grim Tales), I found it along with buying Grim Tales and the included shipping fee too good for not taking it. It would be nice, if you could ship SoC earlier than the 1-2 months, amazon.com threatened me. Receiving them at end of January would be okay - at the end of my exams.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 25, 2004)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Receiving them at end of January would be okay - at the end of my exams.




I could manage that after the holidays. Email me after Jan. 3rd and we'll work something out.

Amazon is giving you a late date because they probably have not received a supply shipment yet. Once they have it in stock, I would expect their delivery time to drop dramatically.

Wulf


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## Selganor (Dec 28, 2004)

I guess I'll ask my favorite retailer (Dragonworld.de) about when they think they'll get it...


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## tameszu (Dec 29, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Edit: I just realized that you are one of the authors.  um, Awesome.  Now go away and write something else.




Oh, hey, thanks--although Matt was the really big creative force when we were writing it. I just gave him as much back-up as I could and tried to help iron out technical issues.

If you by "write something else," you mean notes on my law school texts that I've been trying to pound down over the last couple of days, or that dissertation I haven't touched in awhile, yeah, I should do that...



			
				BryonD said:
			
		

> Anyway, from that point of view, I'd say that I pretty much never run modules.  I've got a multi-year game going that is all my own creation, setting and plot.  So I think I am a pretty good GM.  I'm good enough to run this thing, but not good enough to have come up with it myself.  I think this is exactly the kind of thing that can take my game up one more notch.




Well, good luck with the campaign and be sure to keep us updated--I'm confident that it will be a lot of fun. And thanks for your great feedback!


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## Turanil (Dec 29, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> You can always order from Amazon of course.




Amazon? "_Usually ships in 1 to 2 months_"


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 30, 2004)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Amazon? "_Usually ships in 1 to 2 months_"




I've seen folks mention this a couple of times so I better address it.

This is automated code, placeholder text for Amazon which means, "We don't have it in stock, yet."

However, I know it's on the way, as we speak, so I would expect to see that text updated to "ships in 2-3 days" as soon as they have it in hand.


Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 5, 2005)

Got my copy yesterday and a quick read through shows that it shouldn't be too much of a problem to use the Black Company with this. I'm not going to change anything from Grim Tales to Black Company. Too much of a hassel. I'm just going to have the players use Black Company rules. (Now to get a group together.) After all, hit points are hit points and base attack bonus is base attack bonus.

When looking over the book though, it mentions something about rolling for encounters and using the Jungle part of the chart. Am I just missing the jungle part in that chart? Is it the Valley or Wilderness?

On looking at that tiny thing that goes into your body, (moilied or something?) one of the hidden meances, it lists it's Initiative as +8 but it's dex is like 21 and it has improved iniaitive so shouldn't it be +9?

So far Book One has fallen under my heel. One question pops into mind. Is there a map of any general swampland since the PC's may head into that region or is that something GM's should just wing it with? Perhaps some work with Ed over at SkeletonKey Games (as he did the other maps here) would be a good tie in? The secondary ruins look like some good old fashioned dungeon crawling but not too terrible.

More questions and actual page referencs latter.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 5, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Got my copy yesterday and a quick read through shows that it shouldn't be too much of a problem to use the Black Company with this. I'm not going to change anything from Grim Tales to Black Company. Too much of a hassel. I'm just going to have the players use Black Company rules. (Now to get a group together.) After all, hit points are hit points and base attack bonus is base attack bonus.




Yep. I hope lots of folks find broad applicability for the adventure.

I haven't looked at the BC mass combat rules in any great detail, but you might find them more to your liking for Book Four than the mass combat rules provided.



> When looking over the book though, it mentions something about rolling for encounters and using the Jungle part of the chart. Am I just missing the jungle part in that chart? Is it the Valley or Wilderness?




Valley.



> On looking at that tiny thing that goes into your body, (moilied or something?) one of the hidden meances, it lists it's Initiative as +8 but it's dex is like 21 and it has improved iniaitive so shouldn't it be +9?




Oops. (Don't show John Cooper.)



> So far Book One has fallen under my heel. One question pops into mind. Is there a map of any general swampland since the PC's may head into that region or is that something GM's should just wing it with?




Joe, you're going to find as you go through there are a lot of places where the GM is expected to wing it. Our goal was to provide the things the GM is going to need and not sweat the small stuff that most experienced GMs will play fast and loose. I hope that doesn't get you down on the product.

There is a very rough sketch of the valley area in Book One you may use as a reference point. If you're playing a more "cinematic" game, I doubt you'll need much more detail than that.



> More questions and actual page referencs latter.




I look forward to your questions!

Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 5, 2005)

One thing with the 'wing it' approach.

I have no problem with it because the book notes, "Experienced". Now to me, that's one of the problems of some other publishers. Take Goodman Games and Necromancer Games. both have retro to them but the former is actuall retro in style and substance while the latter are often better suited for GMs with more experience under their belt who are capable of taking source materail beyond it's starting goals. Very few 1st edition adventures required that type of thinking and they rarely note how experienced the GM should be in handling it.

As far as mass combat, the only reason, so far, that I'm thinking of using the Black Company version, is that Fighters in that setting get the Command ability and it seems a shame not to use the ability they get in place of their first level feat.

Now one thing I'm wondering, is how do you get other humans into the campaign once you've started? For general purposes, I can see that they might come from the valley itself, but it seems a bit of a stretch at the same time. I do like the option presented in the gladiator ring that they can switch out their character with one whose more in line with combat and continue to gain levels in both classes. Good thinking there.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 5, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Now one thing I'm wondering, is how do you get other humans into the campaign once you've started?




Getting humans into the campaign is easy; getting _Earthlings_ into it would be more difficult.

There are native Cydonian humans, though their lot is not a happy one... They aren't relegated to a food source like the skreet, but other than that their situation is not much improved.

Even so, there are feisty humans available (the Mendicants, of course, but Bret leaps to mind as a more aggressive example) so you'd have no trouble pulling native Cydonians into the adventure.


Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 5, 2005)

Then it should'nt be too much of a problem.

The Black Company's make up is always changing. They started off with only a few southerners in the first books and wound up with only a few northerners in the Black Company. It's not where you come from in the Black Company, it's where you go!

I see that there are allegiances so that mixes with Black Company perfectly.

Trying to figure out how I'm going to use the Shaman stick in the first chapter. Maybe a bonus to the roll or just an item with the spell imbedded in it. Then again, depends on if any players make a Wizard. Otherwise it just don't matter.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 7, 2005)

Reading some more.

Chapter two seems like a set up chapter.

Here the characters get to learn about the world, get involved in some fights, and possibly save some people from assassination while acting as thieves in other scenarios.

While that's going on, more badness is being imported from Earth setting up more challenges for the characters latter on.

Is that about it?

Looks like it'll work well for the most part. Seeing the races of the gladiators though, had me flipping to the back of the book for physical descriptions of the races. Some of them I was like, "Is that human? Folds of flab? Ugh..." More art for the gladiators!


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 7, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Reading some more.




I was wondering when I would hear from you again.



> Chapter two seems like a set up chapter.
> 
> Here the characters get to learn about the world, get involved in some fights, and possibly save some people from assassination while acting as thieves in other scenarios.
> 
> ...




As extremely succint summaries go, that's about it.



> Seeing the races of the gladiators though, had me flipping to the back of the book for physical descriptions of the races. Some of them I was like, "Is that human? Folds of flab? Ugh..." More art for the gladiators!




More art all around, I know, I know.

As for the race descriptions, there really aren't all that many. Once you get a basic understanding, it's all the same.

You might notice there are naming conventions, as well. 

The ra have an "aa" sound in their name.

The yul have a "yu."

The suul have a "uu."

The lor a "or".

The bru have a "ru."

And finally, the abominations are the only caste with a single-word name.

Unless I made a mistake editing, these will always hold true.

So if I were to tell you that Tret'yulam and Vert'jaal were going to talk to Muktal, without even looking you'd know it was a yul, and a ra, and an abomination.

And, of course, once you're even more versed in the sli'ess culture, the fact that a yul and a ra were talking to an abomination at all, should tell you that nothing good is going to come of _that_ little meeting.


Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 8, 2005)

Reading into chapter three. 

More material to get the players involved into the setting. Much more of a political slant. Great for those players who might not have gotten the spotlight in the previous chapter. The use of giving the slaves (PC's) credits and resources is interesting because it allows the GM to follow a couple of paths.

I can tell though, that at the begining of the campaign I'm going to have to tell my players to trust me. No one likes playing a slave. Thankfully, much of the action doesn't feel like being a slave as opposed to being an adventurer.

I'm about up to the part where the characters go back for more muck/mould/mud for the machien and get the red tick thing/poison thing going.

Setting up chapter one for play next week using the Black Company. This brings up... would it be possible to sell the NPC/monster stats as a PDF or as a password protected PDF? Due to the page references that bounce across all chapters and into the appendixes, it makes having the game stats a little unwieldy at the table.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 8, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I can tell though, that at the begining of the campaign I'm going to have to tell my players to trust me. No one likes playing a slave. Thankfully, much of the action doesn't feel like being a slave as opposed to being an adventurer.




We had lengthy discussions on this point. My position is the same as yours. 

It's not enough that the GM be experienced: the players have to be experienced and mature and willing to accept a certain verisimilitude within the adventure.

Example: There are several times during the adventure where the PCs are expected to be blindfolded and led to the leader of the rebels. Now, I know players: They're going to _hate_ this. And the GM could certainly just waive that whole part. But it wouldn't feel as realistic.



> I'm about up to the part where the characters go back for more muck/mould/mud for the machine and get the red tick thing/poison thing going.




For what it's worth, I _hate_ this part. It's among the most railroad-y feeling parts of the adventure. The players are going to try to escape here. From the sound of your players, I'd consider skipping this side quest entirely.



> This brings up... would it be possible to sell the NPC/monster stats as a PDF or as a password protected PDF? Due to the page references that bounce across all chapters and into the appendixes, it makes having the game stats a little unwieldy at the table.




Are you looking for appendix C (the bestiary) or appendix D (the statblocks)?

Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 9, 2005)

Statblocks. Most definately the statblocks, and not just of the suckers in the appendix too. I know that there have been several times where I've had to flip to page 28 to check out the stats of one of the big dudes.

This is one of the times when I wish the printing reality (expense) wasn't what it is so that the book could've been like one of those old little side booklets like in Temple of Elemental Evil or Queen of the Demonweb Pits. Those little flip books were mighty handy.

And as I'm reading through it, there seems to be mention of another area not covered in the random table. Jungles and Desert I believe. I know it's Valley for the first one (from Chapter One), but what about the Desert?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 10, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And as I'm reading through it, there seems to be mention of another area not covered in the random table. Jungles and Desert I believe. I know it's Valley for the first one (from Chapter One), but what about the Desert?




That'd be Wilderness, I believe.

That'll teach me to get heavy with the editing hand...

Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 11, 2005)

Just about finished it. Read the adventure, read the thing on the two races, read the bestiary, checked over some of the stats for the monster blocks. Haven't looked at mass combat yet but it looks relatively easy to understand.

Now going back to do the note taking and planning that an adventure of this depth requires, as well as hunting down some tiles and ideas for things like the swamp/jungle encounters for the first book

I suspect now that I'm getting ready to run it, this Saturday will be the first day, that I'll have more (specific) questions. One thing that looks good, is outside of optional material, it 
looks like you only need this book and your core book (Grim Tales or whatever system you're using), to run it. Would that be accurate? (I'll be using it, Grim Tales and Black Company.)

One thing I'm probably going to do, is pick up some miniatures from the War Gods line. they have a race of crocodile men that would be perfect for one of the races in here. I've looked for some swamp tiles, but no luck with that. I'll probably also hunt down some random encounters appropriate for a swamp.

Will you be offering the new races as downloads seperate from the core material? They look like they could be inserted into most campaigns for exmaple and could probably generate some added cash. It would also allow a reformatting. The text was pretty close together on the reptilian race and could benefit from some spacing as well as a monster manual stat block with the good old generic "warrior 1" standard and an advanced standard, as opposed to just racial traits.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 11, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Just about finished it. Read the adventure, read the thing on the two races, read the bestiary, checked over some of the stats for the monster blocks. Haven't looked at mass combat yet but it looks relatively easy to understand.




It is. Look it over before you get to Book Three and decide how you want to run it (fast and loose, no battlemap, or very strategic with counters and such). 



> I suspect now that I'm getting ready to run it, this Saturday will be the first day, that I'll have more (specific) questions.




I'll be here to help. I'm all tingly with anticipation! 



> One thing that looks good, is outside of optional material, it looks like you only need this book and your core book (Grim Tales or whatever system you're using), to run it. Would that be accurate? (I'll be using it, Grim Tales and Black Company.)




_"This book requires the use of a core rulebook from Wizards of the Coast."_

But in particular, some of the Magi in Book Three and onward have spells from the SRD.



> One thing I'm probably going to do, is pick up some miniatures from the War Gods line. they have a race of crocodile men that would be perfect for one of the races in here.




Not a bad choice. You could use D&D lizardmen for Bru, Yuan-Ti for Ra, Kuo-Toa for Suul... maybe Sahuagin for Lor. Yuan-Ti abominations for the Got, of course. This is what I plan to do. (I have plenty of everything except maybe the abominations). The yul? No idea.

Another option is to buy yourself a Marvy 1" circle craft punch (http://www.marcopaper.com/craft_punches.htm) and pull out all those CCGs that are currently rotting in your closet. Find the ones with the best illustrations for what you want and punch out counters. (You can also glue them on cheap 1" washers from the hardware store so they can survive a sneeze.)



> I've looked for some swamp tiles, but no luck with that. I'll probably also hunt down some random encounters appropriate for a swamp.




On the second point (random encounters) I'd recommend you just stick to the plot. If you're running a "cinematic" game-- and this adventure is cinematic in scope-- then really nothing should happen by random chance.

On your first point, you tell me what kinds of terrain you'd like to see in battlemat tiles, and I will put them together if at all possible. I can make 8" x 8" color tiles and you can print them and put them together. 



> Will you be offering the new races as downloads seperate from the core material? They look like they could be inserted into most campaigns for exmaple and could probably generate some added cash. It would also allow a reformatting. The text was pretty close together on the reptilian race and could benefit from some spacing as well as a monster manual stat block with the good old generic "warrior 1" standard and an advanced standard, as opposed to just racial traits.




I have so many irons in the fire right now, this is a pretty low priority.

I'm stoked for your game!

Will you be posting a review before, or after? 

Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 11, 2005)

I'll definatly be doing the review before playing through it all the way. It's a big adventure and I suspect this will easily carry me into Gen Con. I'm going to beg some of the players to try and write a story hour. I did it for a few sessions of Siege on Ebonring Keep and man, it's work!

One of the things I love about the last chapter, End Game, is that it has at least three different endings that the players can pick up and run with. Oh, and I am mistaken, or is the guy on the cover the master bounty hunter in the last chapter? Fantastic cover, captures the Frank Fazzetta feel of the old Conan covers perfectly. It is interesting thought that he comes in at the end. I'll probably make some editing and have the players hear about him. I mean for slaves, he's got to be almost legendary. I can see how the Empire itself wouldn't give two rat turds about him. "Yes, he's good but he's human! Disgusting! Move on to another conversation already."

For terrain, I suspect that the swamp is really the only one I'm missing. I've got a lot of Dwarven Forge material, battlematts (specific color ones from Mage knight if I need them), Green Dragon Studio Dungeon Stamps, and all sorts of SkeletonKey Game Tiles. It just seems that Swamps are the only one I don't have. One crazy thing I may do is just forget about AoO and run it a little less 'grim' than either the Black Company or Grim tales are. Only bad thing about that is attacks/abilities like Cleave become a little harder to judge. "No, that reptile man was standing over there... yeah... that's the ticket."

For the miniatures, I didn't even think of lizard men. But now that you mention it, Warhammer has a whole range of Lizardmen I may have to start messing around with. A little expensive to a point, but... I'm going to ambush my players with a request for cash to "add value" to the game. We used to do group minis but to be honest, I was the only one who painted them and these will be for a specific purpose. The Yuan-Ti as abominations is a good call. I'll have to bust out the Counter Collection Digital for some of those I suspect as I've never gotten one in any of my various purchases on D&D Minis. (In the voice of some little kid from South Park... "You bastards!")


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 11, 2005)

Now that's some power!


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 11, 2005)

Those are awesome! I have some WGoE figures-- jackals and mummies, mostly-- but I just don't have time to paint anymore!

Of course you'll want to convert them to hold some blaster rifles...


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 13, 2005)

Went out yesterday and picked upsome Harlequin Miniatures Lioness (2), that I'll be using as Jaguars and some High Adventure miniatures that are chiefs of an African tribe. I'll be painting those on my day off tomorrow for use in the game Saturday.

In looking over chapter one, I've noted one feat some players may be interested in, Agile Riposte (pg 50 from Grim Tales).

1. Any illustrations of Pylong Gatgeway?

2. Still trying to figure out where in the BC world I'll place it. Shouldn't matter much since the BC world isn't like FR in that it's heavily detailed.

3. Page 6 makes reference to Jungle random encounter, but I believe you mentioned that the Valley should be used. It notes that we should see page 15 for a map and description, but the map is actually on page 16 (so I guess that would be see pages 15-16...)

4.Ditto with seeing the map on page 21 (it's on 22)

5. Andros, Sutoko and other character have no real hard details. No hair, eyes, weight, height, etc... No description block like you'd see in a monster. So now I've got to give almost every character here some physical descriptions. Most of them have a vague outline of what they're like but no hard details.

6. I'll be cutting the treasure by 10. Even with a silver standard, this is way more money than a BC campaign can really handle.

7. When talking about Stalking the Stalker, the rgleth type is not noted. I'm assuming it's Andro's rgleth hosted jaguars.

8. Whats up wit the map of the secondary ruins? By making it tilted to the side, it's a little hard to straight out copy.

9. Upon my (third/fourth) reading, I'm finding that author uses the word will a lot when it might not always be necessary. Personal preference.

More repots after the game on Saturday.


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## tameszu (Jan 19, 2005)

Joe,

Sorry no one's replied in a bit. I just knocked off my last exam. I've certainly noted all of your comments--and, hey, if enough buyers or fate can convince Ben to put out another edition, then your emendations are all going to get in.

Most importantly, though--did you end up playing on Sat? Have a report for us?


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 19, 2005)

Let's see...

Most of the characters picked, well, not silly names, but names they thought fit the Black Company style naming conventions.

1. Silverblood: Noble. Poor fighter but best outfitted. Given temporary command of a small unit (10 other warriors outside of other PCs)

2. Wolf: Ranger. 

3. Razorback: Weapon Master whose picked the Bastard sword to master in a two-handed style. Comes originally from the South, where the Black Company is going.

4. ?: New player whose character's name I'm drawing a blank on. He's just a striaght out fighter from the BC setting with longsword & shield.

5. Flame: Playing a wizard. Very brave player. Figures if he can get to 1st magnitude at 4th level, that he might be able to cast some psells instead of using his light crossbow.

Croaker approaches Silver and his men. Tells them of an alchemist paying good money but that the main force is still moving south looking for their origins but that if Silver wants to represent the Company, that he should ride out.

Gril leads them to the alchemist who I make a bit of an eccentric, ripping apart frogs with long jagged fingernails and he hires them for 100 gold, payable upon their return with the maps and other goods.

The party notices that all of the equipment that they're given looks like it's come from another company, perhaps one that tried to take the old man out...

Party moves east until Wolf sees the encampment of Sabib and his people. They decide to make their own camp and then head out in person to see what's around. A random encounter is called for and three bandits are rolled. I have them set up an ambush point. The ranger misses them, they miss the ranger. The others aren't so lucky and Razorback gets taken out in the surprise round due to the Black Company rules after missing his Fortitude save.

They finish them off and move back to the camp where one of the warriors, one "Knives", was actually a physician who got in bad with some people who make those who get in bad with him disappear. (Pretty much warrior with background of physician). He helps the healing move along.

The party then sets up five of their men in an area to rain longbow death down upon the encampment, but when they actually meet  Andros, they form a bit of an alliance with him and decide to look around a bit.

They go to the village and take on the quest to get the reeds to cure the blood medincine. The sutu ambush the party with some traps and instead of running, the party fights it out. The ranger Wolf gets a short spear through the leg and takes a penalty to his checks, but they manage to win out and get the reeds and the friendship of the witch-doctor but the wrath of Malakar.

Now they're thinking about taking Andros up on his offer of exploring the secondary ruins, but don't trust Sabib or his crew.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 19, 2005)

How in the world did you get them to trust Andros-- but not Sabib?

How I wish I could be a fly on the wall for your game.

Be very careful of those random encounters, Joe. They may throw the players off the story.

"Wait... what about those bandits... What if they were sent by XYZ?"

That kind of thing.

Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 20, 2005)

Well, Andros has been friendly, if a little reserved. He's been seen playing with his granddaughters and the players are a bit intrigued by his assistant.

Sabib on the other hand, looks like a reputed criminal from back north and I've already had those with a shady past link him with some 'gambling' houses as a lender or moneyman,from the north. Fits in well with him hleping to finance Andros.

As far as the bandits, well, I think Sabib explained it best. "I can't be in charge of my people every minute of the day, but if you bring me proof of any wrongdoings, I'll take care of it." The ironic thing is, that the bandits that the party took out were left by the party in the wilds and the wilds pretty much took care of the corpses by the time the party decided to try and link them to Sabib.


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## scourger (Jan 25, 2005)

I put mine on order at my FLGS yesterday.  Hope it arrives soon.  Keep the details coming.

Wulf, any chance of a web enhancement with initiative cards?  Or just the text for the stat blocks that can then be printed on cards?  That would be snappy!

How about counters?  I grabbed the art that was posted, which will come in handy for my 3D counters when I run the module.  Any other art work is appreciated.

Hope this is doing well.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 25, 2005)

scourger said:
			
		

> Hope this is doing well.




Me too! (I honestly don't know yet...)


Wulf


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## Fenris (Jan 25, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Me too! (I honestly don't know yet...)
> 
> 
> Wulf




Well Grim Tales seems to be doing well still. Amazon only has 2 left in stock! I don't know how many they had but if they have sold through I would think that it was doing well. I would hope so at least. Now if they would only get their shipment of SLoC............


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 30, 2005)

Let's see...

Players managed to clear out the secondary ruin with a minimum of fuss. When the crocodile appeared, the highest CR thing they've fought so far, they killed it in the first round.

Then they went and murdered Malakar for deciding that he was going to sacrifice those virgins, because "3 is a sacred number."

Now their going to be doing some direct work for Andros, like getting the mud and hunting down the things leaving all the corpses in the wild.

Right now, the party is up to third level.

They probably won't gain a level next week unless they manage to kill the infested creatures but for some reason, I don't think they'll be able to.

Going to have to start marking some more text as I'm trying to read it, coming across amusing spelling errors. "Ya, you see a lot of shakes in the room." Party got a good laugh out of that one.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jan 30, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> They probably won't gain a level next week unless they manage to kill the infested creatures but for some reason, I don't think they'll be able to.




Have you decided what fetish you are going to use for them? You could go with what's in the text, but personally I am partial to "knots."

The players are going to wonder how they keep popping up right next to them. "Holy crap! It's your boot laces, Jim!"



> Going to have to start marking some more text as I'm trying to read it, coming across amusing spelling errors. "Ya, you see a lot of shakes in the room." Party got a good laugh out of that one.




That's odd. I remember seeing that one, too! (_And_ correcting it.)


Wulf


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## Verequus (Feb 1, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Going to have to start marking some more text as I'm trying to read it, coming across amusing spelling errors. "Ya, you see a lot of shakes in the room." Party got a good laugh out of that one.




I don't get, what the text should be.


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## GlassJaw (Feb 1, 2005)

> I don't get what the text should be.




snakes


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## Wulf Ratbane (Feb 1, 2005)

"Shakes... why did it have to be shakes?"


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## Fenris (Feb 1, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> "Shakes... why did it have to be shakes?"




And if Grim Tales wasn't low magic, you could just cast the Shakes to Snakes spell   
(or was that Sticks to Shakes)


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## tameszu (Feb 6, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Going to have to start marking some more text as I'm trying to read it, coming across amusing spelling errors. "Ya, you see a lot of shakes in the room." Party got a good laugh out of that one.




Arg. I hate typos so much.

Thanks very much for the updates, in general--I definitely find them highly compelling. The secondary temple was meant to be mainly oriented toward investigation and providing for some scene-setting/suspense. The infested creatures, especially the rgleths running about in the marsh, are much tougher--and it would take a skilled party indeed to take one out. I can't wait to see what happens next...


----------



## Starglim (Feb 12, 2005)

I'm just reading through it now. Very very impressive.

One question: was there supposed to be a nihileth/rgleth hosted creature template directly after page 174? There are certainly enough examples to reverse-engineer it but it would be nice to have something official.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Feb 12, 2005)

Starglim said:
			
		

> I'm just reading through it now. Very very impressive.
> 
> One question: was there supposed to be a nihileth/rgleth hosted creature template directly after page 174? There are certainly enough examples to reverse-engineer it but it would be nice to have something official.




The templates for the rgleth, nihileth, and shibboleth psychic puppets are already in Grim Tales.  

But you raise a good point-- I'll get them up as a PDF asap.


Wulf


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## Starglim (Feb 12, 2005)

Thanks! I still need to read completely through my _Grim Tales_.

Agreed that a PDF would be useful for anyone who buys _Slavelords of Cydonia_ to play purely with D&D or d20 Modern.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Feb 13, 2005)

Starglim said:
			
		

> Thanks! I still need to read completely through my _Grim Tales_.




I very strongly recommend that. 

There are a lot of little changes to the rules. You might _think_ you know the rules, but one little tweak can change a lot. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of the "core" Grim Tales rules are pulled from three different SRDs-- the original 3.0 D&D, then d20 Modern, then 3.5 D&D-- looking for the best rule for the job at any given time.

And then, of course, the little design changes I couldn't resist.

There's another thread running in this forum about restricting the armor bonus and the "Fewer Dead Heroes" rule. I had a player point out to me that the armor penalty applies, not only to skills, but also to attack rolls. 

A little tweak even _I_ forgot was there...


Wulf


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## GlassJaw (Feb 13, 2005)

> There's another thread running in this forum about restricting the armor bonus and the "Fewer Dead Heroes" rule. I had a player point out to me that the armor penalty applies, not only to skills, but also to attack rolls.




And something I had missed as well, event though I thought I had read through the whole book.  Power Attack is another big change - GT uses the 3.0 version.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 15, 2005)

Review 

So let's see...

After the party wiped out Malakar, they'd already cleaned out the secondary ruins. They were approached by Mika (Mina?) about hunting down those savage beasts that were killing people. They did pretty good against them but due to a few fumbles, didn't manage to get the big win in.

Then, to my surprise, instead of taking up the mystery of the sudden illiness that hit the Sutu of the encampment, only those working with those strange muds that Professor Andors was having mined, they spent three weeks trying to hunt down the jaguars to no avail.

With such a wide span of time open, it turns out that all the Sutu who stayed with the professor, died under mysterious circumstances while those who went to their village recovered. All this while the PC's checked in with Andros because they didn't trust Sabib.

Now when they came back to their encampment, they had their first encounter with the Sil'ess and went down pretty quick.

When they woke up, they discovered that they were slaves! Yeah slavery. They spent some time learning the language and I won't say befriending Bree'Son, but at least trusting him. When Bree'Son was called away on duty, they got to be tortured to insure that they weren't holding out on any information. Then they got a quick tour of the city and the arena where they'll be fighting next week.

At this point, because I had the characters in charge of a small unit of Black Company soldiers, I've told the players that they may want to make 'fighter' styel characters for the arena competition next week.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Feb 15, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Review




Thanks.



> Then, to my surprise, instead of taking up the mystery of the sudden illiness that hit the Sutu of the encampment, only those working with those strange muds that Professor Andors was having mined, they spent three weeks trying to hunt down the jaguars to no avail.




On the bright side, you have the mystery of that "mud" to hold over them for a while. They may feel a sense of pride when they realize the mud is the power source they need to get the pylon system working.



> Now when they came back to their encampment, they had their first encounter with the Sil'ess and went down pretty quick.




That's rough. I don't think I could spring it on them that way. I'd want them to see the gate open.

How did they go down pretty quick? Can you give a little more detail on the fight itself, as well as the reaction of the players? Were they just outnumbered or did the advanced weaponry of the sli'ess make the difference? How did they react to all those reptilian headed aliens? Was it an exciting "reveal" or are your players too jaded for that?



> At this point, because I had the characters in charge of a small unit of Black Company soldiers, I've told the players that they may want to make 'fighter' styel characters for the arena competition next week.




Don't forget that even leader-style characters have a place in team combats-- as could a Smart hero if you run the right kind of "game"-- you could play "living chess," with some of the PCs as pieces and the Smart hero standing on a platform, responsible for directing the action. (And to make it a timed game, if he doesn't make his move quickly, something nasty gets released into the arena...)


Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 15, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> That's rough. I don't think I could spring it on them that way. I'd want them to see the gate open.
> 
> How did they go down pretty quick? Can you give a little more detail on the fight itself, as well as the reaction of the players? Were they just outnumbered or did the advanced weaponry of the sli'ess make the difference? How did they react to all those reptilian headed aliens? Was it an exciting "reveal" or are your players too jaded for that?
> 
> Wulf




Well, I'm using the insanity rules from Black Company but since these are humanoids, I think only one dude lost 1 point of Sanity.

The technology made the difference as I had them using the stuff that stuns/paralyzes your opponent. One guy ran and left his comrades for dead. He ran to Andros camp though and got what was coming to him. The other players didn't hold it against him though. Survival of the fittest and all that.

The players were pretty surprised. I did want to have them be there for the opening of the Pylon but it didn't make any sense that Andros would wait weeks after the mud had been mined on the off chance that the players would return. I figure that he'd send in his minions first with the amulets. In my mind, the aliens had probably been in camp for about a week and had already taken down the other members of the unit, leaving only the village of the sutu behind on this expedition.


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## scourger (Feb 17, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Review




Read and appreciated.  A couple of questions.  

How familiar does a DM need to be with Grim Tales to make use of Slavelords of Cydonia?  I don't have GT, but I'm interested in GT for story and use with other systems: core D&D, Star Wars, Judge Dredd and/or Omega World.  Can I use it without knowing GT, and how much conversion works would you anticipate?

How much reliance is there on the PCs being enslaved?  I have long thought it a poor plot device and usually avoid it like the plague, but I recently listened to the 1st 3 ERB Mars books and am intrigued.  Does the slavery happen to the PCs early on arrival?  Is there a way do run it without enslaving the PCs?  Do they lose a bunch of "stuff" or equipment (which usually seems to be the biggest problem)?  

Thanks.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Feb 17, 2005)

scourger said:
			
		

> How much reliance is there on the PCs being enslaved?




You could get around it to varying degrees of "enslavedness."

Theoretically they could open the gate to Cydonia, enter the Pylon Stronghold, and by good fortune meet a member of the resistance early on. (There's one working right there.)

It's important to get the PCs hooked up with Vert'jaal, who will certainly start hunting them ere long, but it's not necessary he enslave them even if he does catch them. He's a crafty bastard, he might take them immediately into his own "protection."

Most of Book Two involves the PCs as gladiators, so unless they have a special arrangement ("We'll fight as ringers for a cut of the purse...") they pretty much have to be slaves there.



> Do they lose a bunch of "stuff" or equipment (which usually seems to be the biggest problem)?




Pfft. Well that's easy enough to take care of. Don't start them with anything they'll miss.


Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 17, 2005)

scourger said:
			
		

> Read and appreciated.  A couple of questions.
> 
> How familiar does a DM need to be with Grim Tales to make use of Slavelords of Cydonia?  I don't have GT, but I'm interested in GT for story and use with other systems: core D&D, Star Wars, Judge Dredd and/or Omega World.  Can I use it without knowing GT, and how much conversion works would you anticipate?.




This is a hard question for me to answer because of a Catch 22. I've read and used GT so anything I may assume you don't need to know, maybe in in Grim Tales. For me, because I'm using Black Company, which is pretty D&D, I read over the stat blocks carefully. If there's something I see that I don't recongize, like an armor class bonus based on level, I remove it. If you've got core D&D, you should have a pretty good founding, but it'd probably be better to have d20 Modern as it has Talent Trees and other bits.

Having said that, the conversion guide at the front of the book will give you most of the information you need to know. This will involve a little more work for you as a GM, making notes and when necessary, substitionts, but will save you pain in the long run.

Never played Judge Dredd or Omerga World, but there might be less conversion work for Star Wars in some aspects as it has a level based AC bonus no? Been a while since I played. On the other hand, it uses Hit Points with a Massaive Damage Threshold as opposed to Vitality Points, so something else to keep in mind.




			
				scourger said:
			
		

> How much reliance is there on the PCs being enslaved?  I have long thought it a poor plot device and usually avoid it like the plague, but I recently listened to the 1st 3 ERB Mars books and am intrigued.  Does the slavery happen to the PCs early on arrival?  Is there a way do run it without enslaving the PCs?  Do they lose a bunch of "stuff" or equipment (which usually seems to be the biggest problem)?
> 
> Thanks.




On the enslavement.... I'd say pretty heavy. There are a few ways around it, but at that point, you're really rubbing against the grain and most of chapter two will be useless without massive rewriting and at that point, you might be mining it for setting information on Cydonia and the creatures that dwell there. Latter chapters could really go against the whole culuture of Cydonia and have the players be freemen, but unless they're leading their own armies, it doesn't make a lot of internal sense.

Having said that, there are probably ways around it. Wulf has mentioned some, but I'd probably just have the players approach their enemies from a position of power. I mentioned in my review that the players had 10 other members with them. Make it a few units and have them be 'invited' to Cydonia and then have to 'proof' themselves in the arena.


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## scourger (Feb 18, 2005)

Thanks, Joe & Wulf.  I still plan to get the book (if my FLGS ever gets my order completed), but it sounds as if it may be a bit more work to run it without Grim Tales.  I'll read it & see.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Feb 18, 2005)

scourger said:
			
		

> Thanks, Joe & Wulf.  I still plan to get the book (if my FLGS ever gets my order completed), but it sounds as if it may be a bit more work to run it without Grim Tales.




For the record, I disagree with Joe on that point. It's d20. You'll be fine; you'll see.


Wulf


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## scourger (Feb 19, 2005)

If I can get my order completed through my FLGS!  It's approaching 4 weeks now.

What are the distribution issues?


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## Ed Cha (Feb 19, 2005)

Ben, any word on when we'll have the book available at *Indie Press Revolution* that you can share here?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Feb 19, 2005)

Ed Cha said:
			
		

> Ben, any word on when we'll have the book available at *Indie Press Revolution* that you can share here?




Oh, I imagine it will be there before GMs Day. (March 4th)


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 21, 2005)

So the latest session is on.

The players make more 'fighter' based characters for the Arena fighting. I figure it'll be a fun little evening of crush their hopes and dreams.

I get two pure fighters and one berserker and one zealot.

To test them, they get sent against the wolves who have the poison tail sting. They do okay but even with their superior levels and feats over the monsters, I could tell having lowered armor classes and poor weapons (short spears and buckler shields for those interested), really shows the simple things that can hinder a character of almost any level. They managed to win with only one of the characters, the Zealot, getting injured badly as he suffered a 'Grevious Injury' from one of the creatures to his leg, giving him half movement.

Still not ready for true gladiator combat, they were pitted against a Stone Crusher, a rather large beast that is probably like an armored dinosaur. It's got a massive grapple bonus and managed to crush one of the player by surpassing his massive damage threshold and that player rolling a one for his save. Yeah, he died good.

Then I put them in a free for all with like eight other gladiators, and one of them actually won it!

Then they were invited as guest to another noble's house but were actually there to steal some of his ancient stuff. They did a good job of it, a few of them fighting the 'house' guards as entertainment with minimum armor and weapons (small club) while their enemies had battle armor and shock whips. Close fight but the players keep rolling criticals and doing things like crushing ribs and stunning their opponents. While those few were fighting, the others moved about and picked up some goods.

Along the way they've been learning move about the various factions and finding out about the different power groups.

And in the background, the ancient menace continues to spread through the lands...

And of course, there's no game next Saturday as I'm going to be at the Games Day at Games Plus in Mt. Prospect. It's almost like I'm in a bi-weekly campaign with this puppy.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Feb 21, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And in the background, the ancient menace continues to spread through the lands...




Great update!

I particularly like that one of the "red shirts" got killed by the rock crusher. (I picture Eric Tam chuckling to himself...)

Did they enjoy the gladiatorial combat, then?   


Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 21, 2005)

They loved it. A few reasons. One, combat is fun. Two, despite it being in an arena, the arena isn't just one room but several variants. I may run a few more in there like where the party members fight with other gladiators where some are on top using missiles and some are on the ground fighting. Three, while the rule setting is basically d20/D&D, they like getting use out of the Black Company rules as it gives them a chance to just stat up a 6th-7th level character and get into the game.

One of them I had to smack because he kept talking about how it was like the starting of Conan and the better they did in the arena the better weapons, armor, and training they'd get but after the third time of him standing up and doing the double raised armed victory thing he had to be beaten.


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## Old One (Feb 23, 2005)

*Question...*

Joe,

Are you running BCCS characters and system through SLoC or doing a BCCS/Grim Tales hybrid?  If you are using a hybrid...how is it structured?

~ OO


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## tameszu (Feb 27, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I particularly like that one of the "red shirts" got killed by the rock crusher. (I picture Eric Tam chuckling to himself...)




I'm actually much more of a softie than you might think--I mourn for all of the red shirts, cut down in the prime of life, and their families too. OK, maybe not--but allowing your players to use semi-disposible/background members of their entourage for the Arena is a great way to capture that Book's lethality without running the risk of losing really important PCs.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 27, 2005)

Old One said:
			
		

> Joe,
> 
> Are you running BCCS characters and system through SLoC or doing a BCCS/Grim Tales hybrid?  If you are using a hybrid...how is it structured?
> 
> ~ OO




All player characters are using BCCS and that magic system. Since Slavelords has it's own magic system, it's not an issue.

About the only thing I've had to mess with thus far is the armor class bonus that Grim Tales characters get.

Since the characters are slaves, most of the weapons/equipment they get, is straight from the Slavelords book.


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## Old One (Feb 28, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> All player characters are using BCCS and that magic system. Since Slavelords has it's own magic system, it's not an issue.
> 
> About the only thing I've had to mess with thus far is the armor class bonus that Grim Tales characters get.
> 
> Since the characters are slaves, most of the weapons/equipment they get, is straight from the Slavelords book.





Thanks!

Another question, if I may...how have you found the BCCS spell-casting system as a DM?  I am going to be using it in a GT/BCCS Hybrind in about 2 months.

Thanks in advance for commentary and advice...

~ Oldie


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 28, 2005)

The Black Company spell system has rarely come up to be honest. I have one player whose a pure wizard and he worked him from level 1 to about level 5, before the substitition for the pits.

He rarely used any of his magic, instead using the good old crossbow for most combat oriented issues.

Now that the characters are about level 7/8, that may change. In the background he's been healing the gladiators, giving them an unfair advantage in that they can go back to the arena much quicker than other gladiators.


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## Old One (Feb 28, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> The Black Company spell system has rarely come up to be honest. I have one player whose a pure wizard and he worked him from level 1 to about level 5, before the substitition for the pits.
> 
> He rarely used any of his magic, instead using the good old crossbow for most combat oriented issues.
> 
> Now that the characters are about level 7/8, that may change. In the background he's been healing the gladiators, giving them an unfair advantage in that they can go back to the arena much quicker than other gladiators.




Hmmm...OK, food for thought.  The PCs for the one-shot will be 8-9 level and I am toying with things to make one of the 3 with magic talent a 2nd magnitude caster just to stretch things a bit.  They will be going up against some decent magic opponents (Fire Witches of Sythia) and I would like to have one cabaple of summoning up some medium artillery.

Back to the drawing table...

~ OO


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## tameszu (Mar 13, 2005)

Hey Joe, any chance you have an update on your game for us?


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 13, 2005)

Last time we played, we decided it was enough. The players didn't like the whole slavery bit and were good enough to go with it for Chapter Two, but didn't want to do it for the next book and we decided to move back to the Forgotten Realms.

As I noted in my review, you have to have a group willing to accept the fact that for about 85% of it, they are slaves in a low magic world. Now you can rewrite it so that it's not the same, but then you're not really running Slavelords anymore but a heavily modified version. For me, if I'm going to be doing that much conversion work, I'd rather just start from scratch.

I'll probably be using some of the material, like the world of Cydonia and it's inhabitants, in my regular Forgotten Realms campaign.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 13, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Last time we played, we decided it was enough. The players didn't like the whole slavery bit and were good enough to go with it for Chapter Two, but didn't want to do it for the next book and we decided to move back to the Forgotten Realms.




I'm sorry to hear that, Joe. I think your 85% estimate is off since the players should have proven themselves as allies to the Sli'ess before the end of Book Two-- books Three, Four, and Five are especially empowering. They aren't really slaves in any sense of the word-- perhaps it's the sense of being captive...?

Wulf


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 14, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I'm sorry to hear that, Joe. I think your 85% estimate is off since the players should have proven themselves as allies to the Sli'ess before the end of Book Two-- books Three, Four, and Five are especially empowering. They aren't really slaves in any sense of the word-- perhaps it's the sense of being captive...?
> 
> Wulf




Well, I don't have the book in front of me, but book three clearly has the PC's still as slaves-captives. It even notes that if the party is free due to joining the rebellion or the other faction, medicant, that they go back and 'recant' their ways and become slaves again.

They feel that an 'empowered' slave is still a slave.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 14, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> It even notes that if the party is free due to joining the rebellion or the other faction, medicant, that they go back and 'recant' their ways and become slaves again.




That doesn't sound familiar to me at all. I can't even imagine what you're talking about. Wish I had the book in front of me at the moment, too.



> They feel that an 'empowered' slave is still a slave.




Ugh. I'd hate to see an adventure derailed by a completely semantic point.

You could replace the word "slaves" with "alien barbarians" and the adventure would play the same. Their status as "slaves" doesn't mean they're fetching food and drink or toiling away in the crystal mines; it's simply a descriptor of their political status. In many ways, I would liken it to the status of Blackthorne and his Dutch crew in "Shogun." (Hmmm... Actually that's an excellent analogy-- especially since your PCs also had a "crew" in their care.)

Unless, of course, you were really laying it on thick on them and making them feel like slaves.

Wulf


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Mar 15, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> That doesn't sound familiar to me at all. I can't even imagine what you're talking about. Wish I had the book in front of me at the moment, too.




Well, I have it in front of me and I think this is the passage referred to... 3rd paragraph on p. 61:


Spoiler



"_The PCs are drawn to the front lines of the conflict, first acting as spies and researchers, and eventualy being among the first to engage lethid forces. They may begin this section of the campaign simply as slaves asked to aid their master on a 'special assignment' and work from there to a more prominent and trusted role in the coflict. Alternatively, the party may have ended Book Two with rebels or mendicants, in which case, they may play many of the adventures in this Book directly as rebel agents *or posing as human slaves (by allowing themselves to be recaptured and penitent)*. ..._"

If this is it, I'd say that it doesn't require the PCs to go back and actually recant. They'd be *posing* as slaves so they'd only pretend to be penitent while they are actually agents for another organization the whole time.




Regards,
Eric Anondson


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 16, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Well, I have it in front of me and I think this is the passage referred to... 3rd paragraph on p. 61:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...




Eric, that's one way to take it, but at that point, the rewriting involved would be trying to turn steak into chicken. They pretend to be penitent. Which doesn't necessarily protect them from say, being put into more dangerous situations where they really have little control or little cash. One of the early investigations gets them some odd $3K in funds but depending on what the party does, they can spend all of that money getting info here and there, but that leaves them broke for getting others things unless they now find another outside source of funds, which starts to get like the Shield Season 3 where you have to explain where you're getting the money.

I love steak. I love chicken. However, if I'm going to take that effort to do something like that, I'd rather just have one or the other. Rewriting material is not one of my favorite bits.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 16, 2005)

I don't think it's as difficult as Joe's making it out to be, but there doesn't seem to be much point in dragging back and forth with him.


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Mar 27, 2005)

*wow*

I just read through my copy...it's truly epic.  I'm not aware of any d20 supplement that details a campaign on this scale.

I'd like to see more sourcebooks like this one.  How is it selling?  Hopefully, well.

Ken


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## scourger (Mar 27, 2005)

Alas, I'm still waiting for my FLGS to get my copy in--over 2 months later.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 28, 2005)

scourger said:
			
		

> Alas, I'm still waiting for my FLGS to get my copy in--over 2 months later.




Scourger, I would stop waiting. I've had a lot of problems with my fulfillment lately and it doesn't look like they are going to get any better in the short term.

I would recommend you (or your retailer) order directly through Indie Press Revolution.

Follow the link in my sig.


Wulf


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## scourger (Mar 28, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Scourger, I would stop waiting. I've had a lot of problems with my fulfillment lately and it doesn't look like they are going to get any better in the short term.
> I would recommend you (or your retailer) order directly through Indie Press Revolution.
> Follow the link in my sig.
> Wulf




I'll ponder it.  I've left my FLGS holding the bag in the past, so I want to give them every opportunity to get it.  Plus, I've got a Crhistmas gift certificate to use.  But, I think I'll cancel the next time I'm in there buying comics.  The only copy on eBay is from frpgames.  I've dealt with them in the past and have been very satisfied.  IPR does have that great GT & SoC bundle with free shipping...


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## tameszu (Apr 3, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> As I noted in my review, you have to have a group willing to accept the fact that for about 85% of it, they are slaves in a low magic world.




I know this is an issue from a while back, but I have to take issue with this as a mischaracterization of the book. I think a more accurate characterization is something like 20-25% of the campaign. The way Matt and I viewed the book, the PCs are only really slaves in the sense that they have severe restrictions on their freedom of movement or ownership of personal property during Book 2 (out of 5 Books) and maybe the very beginning of Book 3. By the thick of Book 3, they are really Agents, in the Spycraft-type sense. They have become such valuable and powerful enough (and to some degree, trusted) heroes that their "masters" are really more like sponsors. They are even offered missions that they can decline rather than ordered to execute them. Yes, the PCs do not have the complete freedom to go off and build their own citadels or whatever, but I think the notion of being tied to a sponsor is hardly an unusual trope in RPGs to keep things moving in the right general direction. This was especially important in this book loose the details of the plotting already are in much of the campaign.

By Book 4, the PCs become military officers who lead entire units--it's true that this role, like any other military role, does not give them complete freedom to run off wherever they want, but in return, they get to command a significant number of underlings.



> the rewriting involved would be trying to turn steak into chicken. They pretend to be penitent. Which doesn't necessarily protect them from say, being put into more dangerous situations where they really have little control or little cash.




If the PCs take the "rebels undercover" route, then I assume that part of the fun involved in doing so is doing the whole "double agent" thing, where you have to lead a double life and have to make do with limited resources and constantly deceive to avoid getting caught (see the early Alias seasons).

And it's not at all true that they always have few resources. Remember that as powerful members of the rebels or medicants, they would now be able to draw on the resources of the faction that they join, and possible quite significant resources and control. They could become, say, the leaders of particular cells and be able to have quite a bit of covert resources and underlings at their disposals.

None of this is to say that you were in any way wrong to have stopped your campaign when you did, Joe. I was quite grateful for the updates and liked reading them, and I hope that you did have fun while the campaign lasted, and that parts of the campaign serve as useful ideas for your game in the future.

Cheers,

Eric


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## scourger (Apr 3, 2005)

In a twist of irony, just as I was about to cancel my order at the FLGS yesterday, they came through with my copy of SoC.  I have only read the intro and part of the Appendix on the Sli'ess, but it is impressive so far.  The text density is good, which is an immediate good sign.  There is a lot of information there, but the font is large enaough to be easily read.  If the book continues at this level of detail, it will be a rich world indeed.  

I hope to run it as an Omega World game.  Alternatively, I would likely use the 3.5 rules.  I skimmed the stat bloks and see little in the NPCs that can't be used as written.  It has a Stargate and John Carter of Mars (Edgar Rice Burroughs) feel to it.  I would like to accentuate the latter by making earthlings much stronger (higher STR or permanent bull's strength) and able to leap great distances (Spring Legs or as if permanently affected by a jump spell).   

I have to stretch out reading this one, though.  I'm running a D&D game with cross-genre characters; and there is nothing on anyone's release schedule that I'm looking for until June at the earliest.


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## JoeGKushner (Apr 4, 2005)

tameszu said:
			
		

> I know this is an issue from a while back, but I have to take issue with this as a mischaracterization of the book.
> Eric




Well, opinions differ. I mean, like how the sponsors, late in the game now mind you, not in chapter one or two, put some stuff in the characters that will kill them if they don't come back. Yeah, they're masters of their own destiny. I didn't want to hash it out, but it's not like I was reading the book in Polish or something. There are very direct ties of the PC's being slaves through most of the book.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 4, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Well, opinions differ. I mean, like how the sponsors, late in the game now mind you, not in chapter one or two, put some stuff in the characters that will kill them if they don't come back. Yeah, they're masters of their own destiny. I didn't want to hash it out, but it's not like I was reading the book in Polish or something. There are very direct ties of the PC's being slaves through most of the book.




That adventure came up in discussions between me and the writers (Eric and Matt). 

I knew I should have killed that adventure. I tried, Joe.   

(It's not like I had a light editorial hand on the book, either.)

At any rate, that adventure is very definitely optional. Check the "Play Note" add the end. I would personally drop it every time. I can't imagine that adventure adding so much to the players' experience that it would offset the trouble it's inevitably going to cause.


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## JoeGKushner (Apr 4, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> That adventure came up in discussions between me and the writers (Eric and Matt).
> 
> I knew I should have killed that adventure. I tried, Joe.
> 
> ...




It's a good adventure but it's not for everyone. Heck, the big fights at the end with the government come about because the government still pretty much see the players as slaves no?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 4, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> It's a good adventure but it's not for everyone. Heck, the big fights at the end with the government come about because the government still pretty much see the players as slaves no?




Well... No.

The big fight at the end with the government comes about because the government sees the PCs as a THREAT.

I think that pretty much encapsulates the empowerment that the PCs achieve. The goverment doesn't want to be toppled and the PCs have, at this point, achieved the power and status necessary to topple the government.

That goes far beyond the common understanding of "slave."

It's kind of like saying, "I wouldn't want to be Spartacus, cause he was just a slave."

(And as we all know, in the end, they ALL wanted to be Spartacus.)


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## JoeGKushner (Apr 4, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Well... No.
> 
> The big fight at the end with the government comes about because the government sees the PCs as a THREAT.
> 
> ...




Well, not quite at the end. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I believe it's, "Why won't you die Spartacus..."


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Apr 4, 2005)

*thoughts*

Some thoughts:

I think that this campaign could be played with the slave thing toned down quite easily.  Just skip the more railroady adventures (like the one where they go back to earth to mine naquada (oops, I mean mouldstone).

You could convert this setting to a fantasy setting quite easily... just let the gate lead to Tekumel. 

I like the idea of playing up the 'Earthmen are stronger due to the gravity' thing.  It makes sense for the PCs to be exceptional in this campaign, given the roles they end up playing.

I would love to run this with a stargate theme.  Someone should write up some Stargate conversion notes.  One problem is that you're throwing away much of the stargate feel, which to me revolves around doing missions and returning to the SGC.  But running it as Stargate would make it way more accessible to casual players, since everyone is already familiar with the Stargate universe, while not many people have read Burroughs.

-Ken


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 4, 2005)

Haffrung Helleyes said:
			
		

> I think that this campaign could be played with the slave thing toned down quite easily.  Just skip the more railroady adventures (like the one where they go back to earth to mine naquada (oops, I mean mouldstone).




I don't know what naquada is. A greater inspiration for mouldstone was warpstone (from WHFRP).



> I like the idea of playing up the 'Earthmen are stronger due to the gravity' thing.  It makes sense for the PCs to be exceptional in this campaign, given the roles they end up playing.




Action points work well too for separating the heroes from the schmucks.



> I would love to run this with a stargate theme.  Someone should write up some Stargate conversion notes.  One problem is that you're throwing away much of the stargate feel, which to me revolves around doing missions and returning to the SGC.




I don't watch the Stargate series, but really enjoyed the movie. And in the movie, weren't they basically trapped "on the other side"? Seems like a pretty straightforward analog to me. 

I don't know what else you'd need in terms of "conversion notes." Unless you're talking about a Stargate RPG of which I am unaware; and in which case I suggest just making GT characters anyway.


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Apr 4, 2005)

*Stargate*

Yes, there is a Stargate RPG.. it's pretty well done, and has a lot of supplements.  AEG did it...unfortunately they just lost the license.

In the Stargate TV series, on which the RPG is based, they aren't trapped on the other side...they run missions out of the SGC.   You should check out the TV series..it's actually quite a bit better than the movie.  I recommend buying the DVD sets...they're pretty reasonably priced.

You might consider seeing who gets the Stargate license, and pitching a megacampaign to them.  

Ken


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Apr 4, 2005)

*oh*

And in the Stargate universe, Naquadah is a material that the bad guys (the Go'uld)  are always mining that powers all their devices.  It's highly explosive, of course.   The Go'uld didn't create the Stargate network though, and I don't think the Stargates run on naquada.

Ken


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## scourger (Apr 5, 2005)

Haffrung Helleyes said:
			
		

> I like the idea of playing up the 'Earthmen are stronger due to the gravity' thing.  It makes sense for the PCs to be exceptional in this campaign, given the roles they end up playing.




Thanks.  It's one of the things that makes ERB's John Carter so compelling.  Of course, he _acts_ like a princess-rescuing hero, which is the game I would like to run.  In the books, he is protrayed as stronger, faster and tougher; so a bonus to STR, DEX & CON might be appropriate.  I'm pondering allowing an extra d6 whenever a roll based on 1 of those abilities is made, including hit dice.  Maybe a bonus Toughness feat at every level with other ability-enhancing effects.  I'll think of something.


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## scourger (Apr 5, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Action points work well too for separating the heroes from the schmucks.




I use chips already.  Each is given for role-play that I want to encourage and may be redeemed to re-roll a d20 or at the end of the session for +5% xp.


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## tameszu (Apr 5, 2005)

> like how the sponsors, late in the game now mind you, not in chapter one or two, put some stuff in the characters that will kill them if they don't come back.






			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> That adventure came up in discussions between me and the writers (Eric and Matt).
> 
> I knew I should have killed that adventure. I tried, Joe.
> 
> ...




Hey, some context here please! 

To clarify, that adventure is not only optional for the GM and the plot, it is presented as explicitly optional for the _PCs_, as the PCs' sponsor gives the PCs complete choice as to whether to accept this mission. There are absolutely no negative reprecussions for refusing it. 

The reason the PCs are under such a tight leash is because this is an opportunity to return and visit Earth for a bit. The PCs are entirely aware of the constraints they will suffer if they accept and would presumably only willingly accept if they were interested in the rewards and in a chance to taste the air of their home planet, even if only briefly.

The reason the adventure was scripted in this way is that we wanted to give the PCs the chance to visit Earth, but the entire campaign would go down the tubes if they escaped onto another planet, from which they would have a very hard time returning, even if they wanted to. This is very different from escaping from slavery, which can work fine within the campaign--this would be falling out of the campaign setting itself. Could we have scripted it so that it would seem less railroady? Probably, but I at least hope you understand the actual parameters and the design rationale for the adventure.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 5, 2005)

scourger said:
			
		

> I use chips already.  Each is given for role-play that I want to encourage and may be redeemed to re-roll a d20 or at the end of the session for +5% xp.




I strongly encourage you to use Action Points.

I'll also be publishing a PDF pretty soon that brings some really heroic, high-adventure action to the game. An overlay onto the existing leveling structure that I think folks are really going to like. (And it's fueled by Action Points.)


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## scourger (Apr 5, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I strongly encourage you to use Action Points.




I kind of remember them from d20 Modern and recall them as similar to Force Points in Star Wars.  My version was inspired by those and chips or bennies from the Deadlands people.  But, I'm open ot new ideas--I don't even have a solid rules set that I want to use for the game, yet.  What do Action Points do in Grim Tales?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 5, 2005)

scourger said:
			
		

> What do Action Points do in Grim Tales?




In the simplest of nutshells, they add 1d6 to a d20 roll.

There's a couple of other things you can use them for, but that's their primary use.

A character normally gets 5 + 1/2 character level in APs. 

You can refresh those APs once per session, once per level, or even never if you want (in which case you would continue to award APs under the same kind of criteria you currently award your bennies.)


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