# Is that their own galaxy?



## Morrus (Nov 26, 2014)

So the final scene from Empire Strikes Back features the heroes looking  at a galaxy.  They are many, many millions of light years from that  galaxy.  A bunch of galaxy diameters at minimum.   Is that their own  galaxy?  If so, how did they get so far away from it?  And why not hide  out there instead of, like, Yavin or Hoth?  How fast is hyperdrive,  anyway?  How long does it take to cross a galaxy?  How long would it  take to get to that position outside the galaxy?


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## Kramodlog (Nov 26, 2014)

How long did it take to rescue Luke and build and instal his robotic hand?


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## delericho (Nov 26, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Is that their own  galaxy?




Yes - that's where the Falcon is going.



> If so, how did they get so far away from it?  How fast is hyperdrive,  anyway?




They flew. Hyperdrive moves at the speed of plot.



> And why not hide  out there instead of, like, Yavin or Hoth?




It's probably a last resort. That seems consistent with the progression of the film: they started off hiding on the relatively-comfortable jungle moon of Yavin, were forced by the Empire to the frozen rock that is Hoth, and now they've been driven back so far that there's now nowhere in the galaxy that's safe for them.


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## Umbran (Nov 26, 2014)

Going by RPG information - there are a few, rarely used hyperdrive routes that go... nowhere.  Such a thing would make a good hiding place for rebel forces to regroup.


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## gribble (Nov 26, 2014)

The (somewhat) scientific answer is:

According to Wookiepedia, the Star Wars galaxy is approx 120,000 light years in diameter. Looking at the picture, I'd say it's viewed from a distance of at least 5-10 times the diameter of the object away... lets assume from distance of a million light years away.

Although I couldn't find a hyperdrive speed on Wookiepedia, I did find this site which claims to be based on Wookiepedia information and states "A x1 hyperdrive goes at about 100,000,000 times the speed of light which means it can cover about 11,415 lightyears in an hour".

From memory, the heroes are on a Nebulon-B frigate, which has a x2 primary hyperdrive - so it can travel half the above speed - or approx 5707 light years per hour. 

So doing the math, it'd take approx 175 hours (7 days) for the heroes to get out to the position depicted.


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2014)

I don't buy those speeds. I never got the sense they could cross the entire galaxy in 10 hours, or half that with a better hyperdrive. That makes nowhere remote. Nowhere is more than a couple of hours away on average.


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## gribble (Nov 26, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I don't buy those speeds. I never got the sense they could cross the entire galaxy in 10 hours, or half that with a better hyperdrive. That makes nowhere remote. Nowhere is more than a couple of hours away on average.




Fair enough. That's the answer based on "Star Wars" physics, but if you don't like it Wookiepedia does go to great lengths to say that travel times can be highly variable based on conditions, etc. I think the above answer about travelling at "speed of plot" is the right one when it comes to a Star Wars game.


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## MarkB (Nov 26, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I don't buy those speeds. I never got the sense they could cross the entire galaxy in 10 hours, or half that with a better hyperdrive. That makes nowhere remote. Nowhere is more than a couple of hours away on average.




Bear in mind that a large factor in hyperdrive usage is plotting fairly complex courses to avoid getting too close to gravity wells and other hazardous phenomena. Once you get outside the galaxy, you don't need to do any of that.


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## WayneLigon (Nov 27, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I don't buy those speeds. I never got the sense they could cross the entire galaxy in 10 hours, or half that with a better hyperdrive. That makes nowhere remote. Nowhere is more than a couple of hours away on average.




Nowhere IS really remote in Star Wars. Look at the maps for the thing - Coruscant is near the core while Tatooine is near the rim, yet they take a handful of days on a commercial ship at best on a direct route. Most people stick to plotted hyperdrive pathways. Just like in the real world, almost nobody goes outside of assigned known shipping lanes unless they are hiding something. There are uncounted systems that nobody ever goes to.

The thing about Star Wars to keep uppermost in your mind, though, is that Lucas regularly poisons his own well; he lays down the law and picks it right back up again. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is consistent if violating it will gain a cool plot point or scene.


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## delericho (Nov 27, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I don't buy those speeds. I never got the sense they could cross the entire galaxy in 10 hours, or half that with a better hyperdrive. That makes nowhere remote. Nowhere is more than a couple of hours away on average.




Well, Han does claim to have flown from one side of the galaxy to the other. Which could be BS, of course, or it could be that the galaxy is actually tiny, or it could be that hyperdrive is indeed really fast.

Mostly, though, I think George Lucas just wanted a nice visual for the end of his film, and didn't really give much thought to the physics of it all.


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## Morrus (Nov 27, 2014)

delericho said:


> Well, Han does claim to have flown from one side of the galaxy to the other. Which could be BS, of course, or it could be that the galaxy is actually tiny, or it could be that hyperdrive is indeed really fast.




Did he claim it in a manner that suggests it's an achievement?  Because a quick day trip isn't an achievement!



> Mostly, though, I think George Lucas just wanted a nice visual for the end of his film, and didn't really give much thought to the physics of it all.




That is most certainly the case. I agree entirely.


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## delericho (Nov 27, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Did he claim it in a manner that suggests it's an achievement?  Because a quick day trip isn't an achievement!




When talking about the Force:

"Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

So, somewhere in the middle, I guess? That is, he doesn't seem to list it among his greatest achievements, but neither does it seem trivial.


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## Mishihari Lord (Nov 27, 2014)

delericho said:


> Well, Han does claim to have flown from one side of the galaxy to the other. Which could be BS, of course, or it could be that the galaxy is actually tiny, or it could be that hyperdrive is indeed really fast.




I always took that to be metaphorical.  Like someone now would say "I've been from one end of the Earth to the other."  Now Earth doesn't even actually have ends, but anyone would understand that he just means "I've been around, seen a lot of things ..."


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## Umbran (Nov 27, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I don't buy those speeds. I never got the sense they could cross the entire galaxy in 10 hours, or half that with a better hyperdrive. That makes nowhere remote. Nowhere is more than a couple of hours away on average.




If I recall correctly, it is more like you can cross the galaxy on the order of days, with common hyperdrives.  The Millenium Falcon has an uncommonly fast hyperdrive.  

Areas are remote not because the distance is great, but because hyperspace uses paths - and it takes a long time to get somewhere if you don't know a path to it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 27, 2014)

delericho said:


> When talking about the Force:
> 
> "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
> 
> So, somewhere in the middle, I guess? That is, he doesn't seem to list it among his greatest achievements, but neither does it seem trivial.






Mishihari Lord said:


> I always took that to be metaphorical.  Like someone now would say "I've been from one end of the Earth to the other."  Now Earth doesn't even actually have ends, but anyone would understand that he just means "I've been around, seen a lot of things ..."




[video=youtube;ov4epAJRPMw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov4epAJRPMw&sns=em[/video]


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## MarkB (Nov 27, 2014)

Just as an example of travel time, when Obi-Wan is captured on Geonosis during Episode II, and Anakin and Padme go after him and are captured in turn, Yoda sets out from Coruscant to intervene. Coruscant is at the Galactic Core, slightly on the other side of the Inner Core from Kamino and Geonosis, which are both on the Outer Rim, about 15 degrees of arc apart.

The exact timing is indeterminate, but it appears to be a matter of hours at best, certainly not days. That duration is sufficient for Yoda to travel more than halfway across the galaxy, from Coruscant to Kamino, assemble an army of Clone Troopers and capital ships, then fly from there to Geonosis in time to rescue the embattled Jedi.

Basically, travel time in Star Wars is fast. If you have a ship with a decent hyperdrive, and you're on a well-mapped hyperspace trade lane, you can cross the galaxy in a day.


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## Dioltach (Nov 28, 2014)

To offer a different perspective, I think we should also consult another source:



> Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 28, 2014)

MarkB said:


> Basically, travel time in Star Wars is fast. If you have a ship with a decent hyperdrive, and you're on a well-mapped hyperspace trade lane, you can cross the galaxy in a day.




That's silly.  Everyone knows Star Wars starships travel at the speed of plot.


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## Ryujin (Dec 1, 2014)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> That's silly.  Everyone knows Star Wars starships travel at the speed of plot.




And apparently in measures of distance, rather than velocity.


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## hamishspence (Dec 1, 2014)

Keep in mind that the outer spiral arms themselves may be very faint - so the galaxy may be wider than apparent (and thus, closer than apparent).

That said - it's only in the EU that the rendezvous is explicitly way above the galactic plane and on the edge of the galaxy. 

In the "canonverse" that thing might possibly be another object entirely - a star with some nebulosity, or something along those lines. Certainly that's how it's described in the TESB novel - as a big red star.


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## Umbran (Dec 1, 2014)

hamishspence said:


> Keep in mind that the outer spiral arms themselves may be very faint - so the galaxy may be wider than apparent (and thus, closer than apparent).




That would make it a very atypical galaxy, then.  While galaxy cores are brighter than their arms, the arms are still full of stars, which have this habit of putting out lots of light.  And having so sudden a drop-off in brightness as is depicted would be difficult to explain by known processes.



> In the "canonverse" that thing might possibly be another object entirely - a star with some nebulosity, or something along those lines. Certainly that's how it's described in the TESB novel - as a big red star.




Excepting in how red it *isn't* in the movie scene.  If you want to suggest something is a big, red star, it helps for it to be red.  Making it blue-white, as seen in the image in the OP, doesn't say "big red star" to me at all.


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## hamishspence (Dec 1, 2014)

While galactic cores are full of red giant stars - the cores themselves tend to look closer to yellow than to red. Maybe it's because there's a mix of those with other, younger stars.

The simplest explanation is that it's a cheap special effect - and shouldn't be taken too literally. Which is why it rotates faster than a galaxy, or even a nebula, would be expected to.


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## Ryujin (Dec 1, 2014)

If all of the scientific inaccuracies in Star Wars were put together, the sheer mass of the resulting book would cause a localized spatial collapse. Sometimes it's better to just take it for what it is, a Western in Space, and enjoy it.


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## Umbran (Dec 1, 2014)

hamishspence said:


> The simplest explanation is that it's a cheap special effect - and shouldn't be taken too literally. Which is why it rotates faster than a galaxy, or even a nebula, would be expected to.




Well, for its day, it was probably a state-of-the-art special effect.  But its day was over 30 years ago.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 1, 2014)

Perhaps it was just a screen saver...


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## Raunalyn (Dec 1, 2014)

One thing that I found that was missing from the Star Wars universe in the movies was the sense of scale...their galaxy didn't seem all that big.


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## Janx (Dec 1, 2014)

Morrus said:


> So the final scene from Empire Strikes Back features the heroes looking  at a galaxy.  They are many, many millions of light years from that  galaxy.  A bunch of galaxy diameters at minimum.   Is that their own  galaxy?  If so, how did they get so far away from it?  And why not hide  out there instead of, like, Yavin or Hoth?  How fast is hyperdrive,  anyway?  How long does it take to cross a galaxy?  How long would it  take to get to that position outside the galaxy?
> 
> View attachment 65249




clearly, that's a poster in Luke's room, and they are all tripping to some Hendrix while staring at it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 1, 2014)

Ok, I guess I have to be the one to say it...

"It's just a model."


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## delericho (Dec 1, 2014)

Raunalyn said:


> One thing that I found that was missing from the Star Wars universe in the movies was the sense of scale...their galaxy didn't seem all that big.




And yet the series is famed for the sheer size of the Star Destroyer in that opening shot...


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## was (Dec 1, 2014)

Morrus said:


> So the final scene from Empire Strikes Back features the heroes looking  at a galaxy.  They are many, many millions of light years from that  galaxy.  A bunch of galaxy diameters at minimum.   Is that their own  galaxy?  If so, how did they get so far away from it?  And why not hide  out there instead of, like, Yavin or Hoth?  How fast is hyperdrive,  anyway?  How long does it take to cross a galaxy?  How long would it  take to get to that position outside the galaxy? View attachment 65249




1.  Is that their own  galaxy?  Nope, it's a rental.
2.  If so, how did they get so far away from it?  They went on vacation, came back and found squatters in their galaxy.  This one was all they could afford.  Monthly rental on a galaxy is steep.
3.  And why not hide out there instead of, like, Yavin or Hoth?  Are you kidding?  Bugs and Ice, what's not to like?
4.  How fast is hyperdrive,  anyway?  Don't know, the speedometer on my junker is on the fritz.   
5.  How long does it take to cross a galaxy?  Depends on how many toll booths are on your route.
6.  How long would it  take to get to that position outside the galaxy?  Twice as long in the summer due to construction.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 2, 2014)

Ryujin said:


> Sometimes it's better to just take it for what it is, a Western in Space, and enjoy it.




Mr. Kurosawa begs to differ; it's more of an Eastern.


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## Ryujin (Dec 2, 2014)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Mr. Kurosawa begs to differ; it's more of an Eastern.




It's no Yojimbo and sure as shootin' not a Seven Samurai. Hell; it's not even a Last Man Standing or Magnificent Seven. Basic Western, through and through. Even more so that Star Trek ("Wagon Train to the stars").


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 2, 2014)

Ryujin said:


> It's no Yojimbo and sure as shootin' not a Seven Samurai. Hell; it's not even a Last Man Standing or Magnificent Seven. Basic Western, through and through. Even more so that Star Trek ("Wagon Train to the stars").




See also: _The Hidden Fortress_.


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## Morrus (Dec 2, 2014)

Ryujin said:


> It's no Yojimbo and sure as shootin' not a Seven Samurai. Hell; it's not even a Last Man Standing or Magnificent Seven. Basic Western, through and through. Even more so that Star Trek ("Wagon Train to the stars").




It's The Hidden Fortress.


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## Ryujin (Dec 2, 2014)

Yes, I suppose that I do see some similarities between "Star Wars" and "Stagecoach."


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 2, 2014)

Hmmm...maybe, instead of the movies, someone should take the IP in the direction of a _Oklahoma_- or _Music Man_-style musical.

"Y-O-D-A J-E-D-I, 
Yooooooda, Jedi master will the Padawan train...."


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## Umbran (Dec 2, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Hmmm...maybe, instead of the movies, someone should take the IP in the direction of a _Oklahoma_- or _Music Man_-style musical.




Seems to me that _West Side Story_ is more appropriate.

"When you're a Sith your're a Sith all the way...."

"I like to be in the Em-pi-re!  O.K. by me in the Em-pi-re!  I'm not so free in the Em-pi-re, but one cannot flee from the Em-pi-re!"

"Gee kindly Grand Moff Tarkin, 
You gotta understand 
We started Rebel larkin'
'Cause the Empire's out of hand!
My mom was in the Senate
My dad, he was a Sith!
Goodness gracious! Naturally I'm pithed!"


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 2, 2014)

I was trying to incorporate the "western" vibe, but yeah, yeah...I could see that.

Of course, a more modern take could work too...

"Sith is the word, is the word that you heard.
It's got a groove, it's got a meaning
Sith is the time, is the place, is the motion
Sith is the way we are feeling."

Or perhaps:

"Jedi
Sense the dew on the sunflower
And the millions that cry out
But suddenly silenced
Like the sunflower
I yearn to turn my face to the dawn
I am waiting for the day

Padawan
Close your eyes to the Death Star
Use the Force, strike your target
Open up, enter in
If you find there
The meaning of what happiness is
Then a new life will begin"


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## Ryujin (Dec 2, 2014)

To quote Sergeant Renfrew of the RCMP, "When I regained consciousness" 

Well done, both


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## MarkB (Dec 2, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Hmmm...maybe, instead of the movies, someone should take the IP in the direction of a _Oklahoma_- or _Music Man_-style musical.




It's been tried.

[video=youtube;lHw0-6SqecI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHw0-6SqecI[/video]


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 2, 2014)

The AS guys are not too bad, but...on ice?  Nah.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 3, 2014)

I am the very model of a modern Jedi General ...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 3, 2014)

A clever person could have a hit taking the rock opera _Hair_ and staging it in the Star Wars universe.  The struggle with anti-authoritarian poilicies, an unwanted war, and someone getting drafted to fight in it to end the third act...

There would have to be some lyrical changes to fully mesh the visuals with the music, but that's not too difficult.  I'm doing it in my head as I type- the anthemic "Let the sunshine in" becomes "Let the Force fllow through" with litte effort.



The critics would eat it up.



Of course, that storyline precludes it from involving any of the major figures in the Star Wars universe...so the next adaptation would be of _Jesus Christ, Superstar_.





Anyone want to invest in a major broadway musical?  Anyone?  Bueller?


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## Rabulias (Dec 3, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> A clever person could have a hit taking the rock opera _Hair_ and staging it in the Star Wars universe.




Hmmm... with Wookiees and Ewoks, that could really take off...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 3, 2014)

Yep, use these lyrics:
http://www.songlyrics.com/hair-soundtrack/hair-lyrics/


but substitute this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr3sBks5o_8&sns=em

For the word "hair", and it's a show-stopper!


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## Umbran (Dec 3, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Anyone want to invest in a major broadway musical?  Anyone?  Bueller?




Anyone investing in a major Broadway musical with Bueller has failed to watch The Producers, and thereby deserves what they get.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 3, 2014)

Damn!  I KNEW I had just tipped my hand!


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## Umbran (Dec 3, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Damn!  I KNEW I had just tipped my hand!




I wanna be a producer
With a Sith show on Broadway
I wanna be a producer
Open Star Trek the next day
I wanna be a producer
Staging Alien for a lark!
I wanna be a producer
Casting Shatner to jump the shark!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 3, 2014)

"It's springtime
For Palpatine
On the Deathstaaaaaar!"


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## Thunderfoot (Dec 4, 2014)

HOTH!!
hoth, hoth, hoth, hoth, hoth, hoth
Snowin', Blowin'
Long as the Empire ain't knowin'
We're on Hoth

We stay here until we freeze
Then be killed by A-T-A-Ts
Prefer Yavin's leafy tree to this Hoth
Darth oh please
Don't look for me
Where the ground is white
and freezes at night
Oh the Tauntauns, and the Speeders and the Wompa
On

HOTH!!
hoth, hoth, hoth, hoth, hoth, hoth
Snowin', Blowin'
Long as the Empire ain't knowin'
We're on Hoth


Does this fit the bill?


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## Thunderfoot (Dec 4, 2014)

Now as to the question of hyperdrive - originally it was folded lanes across space (similar to worm hole theory)  

But Lucas decided that all that was secondary to the plot of his three lousy prequels.  Because pod racing, midi-chlorians and racially inappropriate stereotyped alien races are a good idea.

Never add anything from the first three movies into the calculations because at some point I believe Lucas had a stroke and forgot how to writer direct and produce.  I'm hoping JJ Abrams says it was all a dream and we wake up while the real movie is in the shower (ala Dallas  q.v.).


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 4, 2014)

> Does this fit the bill?




Hells to the yeahs!


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