# Questions About Keith Baker's "Gates of Night" - Dreaming Dark Book 3 SPOILERS



## Atavar (Nov 16, 2006)

WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD

I finished reading Gates of Night by Keith Baker the other day.  I wanted to sum up my understanding of his revelations of some of the basic mysteries within Eberron and see if anyone out there can help me understand them better:

[sblock]WARFORGED ORIGINS: Modern warforged were created based on technology found in Xen'drik.  This technology was originally used to create warforged-type beings for certain quori (the good ones?) to inhabit as bodies so as to escape the destruction/change of their home plane.

THE CAUSE OF THE DAY OF MOURNING: It was implied that the unnamed patron of Lei's parents's research on alternative warforged technology had something to do with the cause of the Day of Mourning, and that some such catastrophe came as little surprise to Lei's father.[/sblock]

Does the above about sum up what the book revealed?  Am I missing or misunderstanding anything?

Thanks,

Atavar

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"And now, for a very special episode of Herman's Head."


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## Grymar (Nov 17, 2006)

On the Mournlands...not necessarily.  KB has stated before that there is no true single reason for the destruction of Cyre, it all depends on the DM.  So yes, in the Dreaming Dark trilogy that is what caused it, but not in my game.


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## Atavar (Nov 17, 2006)

Oh, I agree...a DM is free to explain (or not) Eberron's mysteries in any way he or she wishes for his or her campaign.  I just find it interesting to think about how Keith Baker explains them (to the extent he does, anyway) in his novels.  I found the way he tied a few of them all together to be pretty cool.

Later,

Atavar

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"We miss you already, Bo." - Atavar, Michigan Grad


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## SnowRaven (Nov 18, 2006)

I don't think the Mournlands thing was really anything new, since it's all just a theory anyway.


For the Warforged stuff, most of it was mentioned in XenDrik, but it's not a certain thing. The Quori might have been first, or the giants, or anything. The Quor-forged didn't have souls either, IIRC. 

The interesting thing was that it sort of expanded the cause of the war from the Quori side. They saw their desctruction coming, tried to move ammicably and the giants refused. Granted it's just one persons viewpoint, but still interesting.


Overall a good trilogy, but the ending left me a bit unsatisfied. Too many loose ends for the third book of a trilogy I felt.


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## BrooklynKnight (Nov 20, 2006)

Exactly. Like what happened to the Drow chick? If you ask me it feels like a few chapters are physically missing from the book. Chapters explaining what happens back in Reidra while she's defending their bodies.


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## Hellcow (Nov 21, 2006)

Grymar said:
			
		

> So yes, in the Dreaming Dark trilogy that is what caused it...



Hmm. _What_ is what caused it?

[sblock]Lei's father does indeed imply that he knows what might have caused the Mourning... and that it might be tied to his patron. But can you tell me who that patron is? All I'll say is that the answer to that question will shed light on how the Mourning came to pass, but not necessarily lock DMs into a single path. And I do mean that as a serious question: can you tell me who the mysterious patron is? Any ideas? I've certainly tried to put clues throughout the series, and it's a question that ties into many aspects of the plot and what is to come. 

With that said, you are correct: I do feel that DMs should feel free to ignore the novels. However, in this particular example, I don't think the answer I'm building towards is as exclusive of other ideas as you might think.[/sblock]

As for the warforged:
[sblock]This is also touched on in _Secrets of Xen'drik_. What you've suggested is, potentially, the origin of the FIRST warforged and docents. However, it's highly likely that having dealt with warforged in this conflict, one or more of the giant nations developed their own warforged and docents in the thousand years following. The typical docent DOESN'T have an ancient quori spirit in it... though if you want to see my stats for one that does - Shira, in fact - you can find them in _SoX_.[/sblock]



			
				SnowRaven said:
			
		

> Too many loose ends for the third book of a trilogy I felt.



A valid complaint, and one I've heard a lot. I'll bear that in mind for the future. What I will say is that I approached this much as a season of a TV show; say, _24_. My intention was to complete the story arc of the "season" - the speciifc conflict with the Dreaming Dark. There are still mysteries tied to the characters, and this is what will be explored in the future. But what happens next _won't_ be directly tied to the Dreaming Dark; that particular story arc has concluded. Essentailly, for me, the season ends with Chapter 34; the epilogue is the teaser for the next season. 

With that said, enough people have complained about it that I can clearly see that it was a mistake. All I can say is that I've still got lessons to learn as an author, and this is clearly one of them. _I_ like mysteries, and so I left a fair amount of mystery in the story - but I recognize that I may have gone too far. 

Of course, I am curious if anyone thinks they know what's happened in the epilogue. My intention was that you _could_ figure out what's happened, if you pay close enough attention to events throughout the series. However, I'm the author, so obviously *I* know the answer - and I may have made the tools too subtle.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 21, 2006)

Ee. Ah, the joys of fanboyism.

Cool to have you swing by here Keith.

So, when do you start on the next season? Looking for someone to help with a spin-off? *grin*


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## huskbcake (Jun 25, 2014)

Hellcow said:


> A valid complaint, and one I've heard a lot. I'll bear that in mind for the future. What I will say is that I approached this much as a season of a TV show; say, _24_. My intention was to complete the story arc of the "season" - the speciifc conflict with the Dreaming Dark. There are still mysteries tied to the characters, and this is what will be explored in the future. But what happens next _won't_ be directly tied to the Dreaming Dark; that particular story arc has concluded. Essentailly, for me, the season ends with Chapter 34; the epilogue is the teaser for the next season.
> 
> With that said, enough people have complained about it that I can clearly see that it was a mistake. All I can say is that I've still got lessons to learn as an author, and this is clearly one of them. _I_ like mysteries, and so I left a fair amount of mystery in the story - but I recognize that I may have gone too far.
> 
> Of course, *I am curious if anyone thinks they know what's happened in the epilogue*. My intention was that you _could_ figure out what's happened, if you pay close enough attention to events throughout the series. However, I'm the author, so obviously *I* know the answer - and I may have made the tools too subtle.




I realize this response is 9 year late. But I have no friggin clue what happened in the epilogue. All I know is that I was enjoying the books, and then I got really confused. And then I got mad. 
I assume that someone summoned the soul back. But he was in the realms of dreams. That could be anything in his body for all we know.

So now I'm just pissed off at the series (Sorry). 
I don't know if in the 9 years since this original post if that epilogue has been expanded on, so if it has, please let me know.

Cause as of right now, having just finished and googling to see if there's more, I'm just extremely irritated. I don't wish to re-read to find out if maybe I can find a clue. I feel more like throwing the book at something. 

Now granted, I still have respect for you as an author for being able to put that much effort into a series and make 3 successful books out of it. I just really don't like the ending.

 It felt rushed in the last chapter, as in, really? Daine might be dead, and just some small reassurance from Jode is going to make it alright. And, oh, now lets go get stew?! 
Throughout the entire story Daine stays angry for the longest time and even the love of his life doesn't comfort him in times of distress, but now this paragraph conversation is just it? That seems like it's a cheap way out and it feels like it didn't follow Daine as a character. 
And the scabbard? We have no idea what it was. Another gift? And who put the summoning circle? Was it Kin? And is it even Daine that said it? It could've summoned something else into his body. Hell, it could've summoned the original owner of the scabbard! And why was Xu knocked out? Seriously? It just seems like a dumb way to end the series. 

That's just one reader ranting. And it's just how I perceived the books ending.


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## Hellcow (Jun 26, 2014)

huskbcake said:


> I  don't know if in the 9 years since this original post if that epilogue has been expanded on, so if it has, please let me know.



The situation is indeed expanded on in Book 2 of the Thorn trilogy (The Son of Khyber). I'll respond further on this when I have more time.


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## Hellcow (Jun 26, 2014)

OK, back! 

I do apologize for the end of Gates of Night. As I said before, when I wrote it I fully believed that it was going to be followed by a second trilogy - so things were left hanging to be resolved there. All I can say is that it's not something I will do again - and it wasn't my intention to leave so many questions unanswered indefinitely. As it was, I was able to resolve some of the most egregious unanswered questions in The Son Of Khyber.


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## huskbcake (Jul 15, 2014)

Hellcow said:


> OK, back!
> 
> I do apologize for the end of Gates of Night. As I said before, when I wrote it I fully believed that it was going to be followed by a second trilogy - so things were left hanging to be resolved there. All I can say is that it's not something I will do again - and it wasn't my intention to leave so many questions unanswered indefinitely. As it was, I was able to resolve some of the most egregious unanswered questions in The Son Of Khyber.




So, we know what happened to Daine. Kind of. 
[sblock] And what happened to Daine made me sad. It wasn't really Dained so we don't actually know what happened to him. Or to Xu after the battle. And there was no mention of Lei or Pierce! So especially with Daine's body being dead and shoved into a bag, where's his soul going to go now?[/sblock]
 And while the thorn of breland series ended with more closure. There's still a lot more questions on what's going to happen to Thorn now. Is that in another series too? Also, still have no idea what happened to the other members of the party that weren't mentioned in the thorn of breland series. 
If it covers even more in another series now it's just sounding like a marketing ploy.  While I enjoy reading good books, if the books are good I will continue reading from the author. I don't feel like it's fair that I should spend money on books just because something wasn't explained. And I never really felt the connection with thorn as a character. It honestly wasn't as in depth as the Dreaming Dark Series was. Well, that's my perception anyways.


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## Hellcow (Jul 15, 2014)

huskbcake said:


> So, we know what happened to Daine. Kind of.



Like I said, I wanted to sneak Daine and Jode into The Fading Dream, but it just didn't fit the actual story... likewise with Lei. The Son of Khyber was an opportunity to resolve some issues while remaining on track with the actual Thorn story. 



huskbcake said:


> If it covers even more in another series now it's just sounding like a marketing ploy.



Which wasn't my intention. A key thing to bear in mind is that with tie-in/licensing series, you're juggling both the author's intent and the desires of the license holder. When I wrote The Dreaming Dark, it was my assumption that the characters would carry on in a second series; as I said, the story intentionally leaves questions unanswered because those would have formed the framework of the next trilogy. It was only after the series was complete that WotC decided not to pursue future stories with those characters, which left me feeling like an enormous jerk. 



huskbcake said:


> And while the thorn of breland series ended with more closure. There's still a lot more questions on what's going to happen to Thorn now.



It's a similar situation. The original plan I worked out with WotC was that Thorn would be a five-book series, and I planned her character arc with that in mind. While I was writing Book Three, they decided to end the series there. I did the best I could to give it a solid ending, but it _was_ rushed and there were things I simply couldn't resolve because the answers to the questions didn't lie on Khorvaire, let alone in the scope of Thorn's final mission.

I'm not trying to pass the buck here. Shifts in editorial direction are bound to happen in this sort of collaboration, and it is a danger of working with any sort of licensed property; at the end of the day, the author doesn't have complete control over the situation and needs to be ready for that. As a new writer, I didn't take that into account, and I made mistakes. It certainly wasn't an attempt to get you to buy more books; while I'd like to pursue both storylines, I don't know if WotC has any plans to produce Eberron fiction of any sort in the future. it was simply a combination of my own inexperience as a writer combined with the corporate complexities of writing tie-in fiction.


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## huskbcake (Jul 16, 2014)

OK that makes sense, though I was kind of hoping that this quote wouldn't be there.



Hellcow said:


> while I'd like to pursue both storylines, I don't know if WotC has any plans to produce Eberron fiction of any sort in the future.




I did learn a lot about eberron, which was the original goal when I picked up the books way back when. 
And despite my unhappiness towards the ending, which you have clearly explained so I can't be all that mad anymore, I did enjoy the dreaming dark series very much and would've gladly invested more into the series to continue reading it.

I felt with the thorn of breland series, which I also enjoyed, that it had too many words. This sounds ridiculous because it's a book, of course it had words. There was a lot more description in it then I thought there would be and it almost seemed _overly_ fantastical. But you also described how it was supposed to be a 5 book series, so that could be part of it. 

So I guess in ending I do want to thank you, I honestly didn't think I'd get a response when I first posted here. Were you ever considering to continue writing about them on your own? Like an unofficial transcript or something? Or does licensing prohibit that as well? Or any stories on the unexplored sections of eberron?


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## megamania (Jul 16, 2014)

I would enjoy more Thorn books.   As it is, I do a lot with the Dark lanterns in my stories (John Play especially) and I drop her name here and there to keep her "alive".



Since it seems WoTC is done with her.... what did you have in mind?


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