# Science Fiction: Greatest TV Shows Part III



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 9, 2021)

Part I (Dramas):








						The Greatest TV Shows of All Time (Kinda): The Top 10
					

Greetings and recriminations, and welcome to a very special edition of the Snarf's Musings about the Media. If you haven't seen the posts leading up this, they are located here: https://www.enworld.org/threads/firefly-reconsidered-why-firefly-isnt-hall-of-fame-great.680424/  ...and here...




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Part II (Comedies):








						The Greatest TV Shows of All Time Part 2: HA HA! Comedy Illustrated
					

If you haven't seen it yet, then here is Part 1 - the Dramas. Oh, the DRAMA! You'd think that people would be understanding if you create a list of shows and put forth reasons for having the list exclusive (such as American shows, and no Comedies) given that you were only doing 10, but, of...




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What are the top 10 SCIENCE FICTION shows of all time? Why do this? Why not? Procrastination is a helluva drug.

Before starting, the criteria I use, because I am a masochist and love writing stuff everyone ignore in order to argue with the premise.

1. The show must be complete, and have lasted at least one full season. In other words, no matter how much you like _The Expanse _or _Stranger Things _they are just not eligible. This also means no miniseries (not a "season") and not beloved shows that have been cancelled prior to airing a full season. That means you, _Firefly_. Please note, however, pace no. 5, below, that if a show has been around forever (with "forever" being defined as at least 10 years) in multiple incarnations (Doctor Who) or multiple series (Star Trek), it is eligible.

2. It must be in English. There is, in fact, a surprising amount of good, non-English science fiction TV out there. But you have to narrow the field somewhat. This is the El Ministerio del Tiempo corollary. This does allow shows from the UK and Canada on this particular list. I'm relaxing this criteria only because I feel I am sufficiently informed about these shows- although I am sure someone will point out something I missed. Probably from Australia.

3. It must be a drama, or a dramedy (mainly a drama). This is not because you can’t have a science fiction comedy- I just don’t want to cross the streams. This is the Futurama/MST3k paradox.

5. The show will be judged from all episodes holistically, but sticking the landing matters. Most importantly, if a sci-fi show constitutes a whole “canon,” or "shared universe," then the various shows will get lumped together as one. If, on the other hand, a show has been rebooted (BSG, Lost in Space), then the reboots count separately. Call this the Star Trek Rule.

6. Unlike the other top 10 lists, science fiction is about ideas- and often (but not always) the future. Which means that shows will be given a slight nudge for being ahead of their time- or, if you prefer, they will not be docked because the special effects could not keep pace with the ideas. This is the Inviolable Law of the BBC Using a Telephone as a Spaceship.

7. If the show is on my other top 10 list, then it is ineligible. In other words, I don't have to make the call on "Is Buffy sci fi?"

9. I have to have watched the show. Are the entirety of the Stargate shows good? Perhaps! I just don't know because I haven't seen them.

10. No animation. Everything from Futurama to Cowboy Bebop could be on this list, but including animation (and, especially, anime) would make this too unwieldy.

11. Science fiction should be given as wide as possible of a definition; if in doubt, it should be science fiction. However, shows like Game of Thrones are probably better as "fantasy" so I'll leave it at that. You can apply your own definition.

Now, without any further warning, and remembering that this is not an ordered list, here are the top 10 in my opinion.

1. _*Star Trek*_ (collected series). One of two absolute must inclusions. By the way, while making absolute determinations, be aware that TOS is the greatest of all Star Treks. You’re welcome.

2. _*Doctor Who*_ (incl. Torchwood). Whether you only love the old stuff, or are an unabashed nu-Who fan, this is the other absolute must inclusion on this list.

3. _*The Prisoner*. _Orwellian and perfect in every way.

4. _*Blake’s 7*_. Long before anti-hero and grimdark was even a glimmer in modern discourse, a show taught us that character death, losing, and rooting for a slimeball like Avon could be a winning formula. That ending, though. I still hear the blaster fire.

5. _*Twilight Zone* _(1959 original). On the plus side, so very many good stories. On the minus side ... probably at least 85% responsible for the career of M. Night Shyamalan.

6. _*Battle Star Galactica*_ (2004 reboot) (incl. Caprica, webisodes, and tv movies). People can endlessly debate whether or not the ending of BSG “stuck the landing.” What no one can reasonably disagree with is that for many years, BSG was a shining example of how to do science fiction right, with the gravitas it demanded. It's like ... remember when Syfy used to have good science fiction?

7. _*Babylon 5*_ (incl. tv movies and Crusader). Sure, the issues with some of the CGI remain. Some of the scripts haven’t aged well (JMS earnestness). And the first season, needing to balance the “monster of the week” with the overall arc, can be a struggle for people that are more used to modern TV to get through. But this was the series that was clearly ahead of its time, even if it is dated now. If you can get on its wavelength, it is more rewarding than almost any other show on this list.

8. _*Fringe*_. The first season looked to be a run-of-the mill sci-fi procedural and X-Files ripoff. But then it got weird ... and good.

9. _*X-Files*_. There's a lot to dislike about the show now. After Muldur left, it just kind of meandered. The mythology ... that ended up going nowhere. But for a certain period of time, there was nothing more thrilling and, at times, subversive than the best one-shot X-Files episodes.

10. _*Legion*_. "Unreliable narrators are the best narrators." Nabokov, probably. 


Honorable Mentions:
Life on Mars / Ashes to Ashes (two series, BBC)
Mr. Robot
Orphan Black
Lost
Farscape
Various CW series that are complete, like the 100 and Arrow
Sense8

So, what obvious show (shows) did I miss?


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## Cadence (Jun 9, 2021)

It's been years since I saw it, but I never thought of the Prisoner as being science fiction... hm.  I guess my definition is narrower than I thought.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 9, 2021)

Cadence said:


> It's been years since I saw it, but I never thought of the Prisoner as being science fiction... hm.  I guess my definition is narrower than I thought.


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## payn (Jun 9, 2021)

Not in any particular order

Dr Who
The Outer limits (new and old)
Twilight Zone
Babylon 5
Star Trek DS9
Star Trek TOS
Star Trek TNG
Counterpart
Farscape
Battlestar Galactica 2004


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## Cadence (Jun 9, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


>




Yes, the ball seemed more than a a bit out there.    But the rest didn't seem in the ball park of Star Trek, or Dark Angel, or Firefly, or even Brisco County to me.   If they had communicators or phasers or... then it would have jumped out more to me.  

I'm trying to think what hi-tech there is in James Bond or Get Smart.  Are there any of those you would call sci-fi?

Is Firefly more sci-fi or more western.  What if we got rid of the space ship and made it a dirigible on one planet?  If we get rid of everything except one sci-fi piece, what would the voted for sci-fi vs. western be?


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## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 9, 2021)

payn said:


> Not in any particular order
> 
> Dr Who
> The Outer limits (new and old)
> ...




I haven't seen Counterpart- have to add that to my freekin' yuge list of shows to watch when I get the time.

You can put all the Star Trek shows into one if'n you want.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 9, 2021)

Cadence said:


> Yes, the ball seemed more than a a bit out there.    But the rest didn't seem in the ball park of Star Trek, or Dark Angel, or Firefly, or even Brisco County to me.   If they had communicators or phasers or... then it would have jumped out more to me.
> 
> I'm trying to think what hi-tech there is in James Bond or Get Smart.  Are there any of those you would call sci-fi?
> 
> Is Firefly more sci-fi or more western.  What if we got rid of the space ship and made it a dirigible on one planet?  If we get rid of everything except one sci-fi piece, what would the voted for sci-fi vs. western be?




Weirdly, I got dinged for "gatekeeping" (or other nonsense) for pointing out that Firefly was a western in space (which I assumed was both common knowledge, in the same way that Whedon specifically modeled it after the "Lost Cause"), but I personally have a fairly expansive view of science fiction. 

Of course, the trouble with an expansive view of science fiction is you get to the situation where it becomes difficult to define genres- what about fantasy? Magical realism? Thrillers (or espionage) that used technology we don't currently have but are set in our time (like James Bond, sometimes, or Mission Impossible all the time)? Alternate history?

Since I don't have the answers, I'll let other people choose what they think it and isn't science fiction.


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## dragoner (Jun 9, 2021)

I would put Space:1999 on the eligible shows? Stargate still has series running, except so does Star Trek.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 9, 2021)

dragoner said:


> I would put Space:1999 on the eligible shows? Stargate still has series running, except so does Star Trek.




Space:1999 is good, but for me it is an honorable mention. The reason I didn’t list Stargate is because, believe it or not, I’ve never watched it. I didn’t start when it started, and at this point there are too many series and episodes and I just can’t imagine trying to catch up.


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## Istbor (Jun 9, 2021)

So a "The Greatest Science Fiction Shows" but not really list?


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## MarkB (Jun 9, 2021)

I'll give an honourable mention to a BBC series called Star Cops. It was from the era of classic Doctor Who and Blake's Seven, and its ropey budget shows in practically every shot, but it was way ahead of its time as a hard SF show set in Earth orbit that took orbital physics and spacecraft design every bit as seriously as The Expanse, and while a lot of its concepts seem quaint by modern standards they were pretty forward-looking at the time.

It includes things like an Alexa-style digital assistant in a pocket-sized device, computerised network surveillance to detect terrorist threats through keyword searches, terrorist attacks delivered through hacking of commercial systems, and identification - and misidentification - through DNA traces. All from a series produced in the 1980s.


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## dragoner (Jun 10, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Space:1999 is good, but for me it is an honorable mention. The reason I didn’t list Stargate is because, believe it or not, I’ve never watched it. I didn’t start when it started, and at this point there are too many series and episodes and I just can’t imagine trying to catch up.



I think 1st season is right up there with some of the best sci-fi. Similar to the suggestion by @MarkB Max Headroom also deserves a mention as well, if just for the hacking incident where: "The video ended with a pair of exposed buttocks being spanked with a flyswatter before normal programming resumed. The culprits were never caught or identified." All of your picks are good though!


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## Richards (Jun 10, 2021)

Cadence said:


> Yes, the ball seemed more than a a bit out there.    But the rest didn't seem in the ball park of Star Trek, or Dark Angel, or Firefly, or even Brisco County to me.   If they had communicators or phasers or... then it would have jumped out more to me.



Well, besides Rover, various episodes of _The Prisoner_ involved mind-swapping technology, viewscreens that allowed you to watch people's dreams, and a computer that could "beam" knowledge directly into your head (granting you the equivalent of a college-level course in several minutes).

Johnathan


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## Ixal (Jun 10, 2021)

I liked Space: Above and Beyond, even though it was mostly military porn. It had some Wing Commander vibes.


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## Tonguez (Jun 10, 2021)

Doctor Who (excluding Torchwood)
The Avengers (John Steed version)
Sapphire and Steel
Tomorrow People (Thames Television)
Battlestar Galactica (Original) By Your Command
Man from Atlantis
Blakes 7
Lexx - _had no interest when it was first on, but caught a 3am episode one day and got hooked in._
Automan
Knight Rider
Seaquest voyages through Inner Space
Logans Run
Dollhouse
Misfits
Stingray (is Supermarionation animation?)
Person of Interest


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## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 10, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Doctor Who (excluding Torchwood)
> The Avengers (John Steed version)
> Sapphire and Steel
> Tomorrow People (Thames Television)
> ...




Some comments-
The Avengers ... not a bad choice, not sure I'd include it.
Sapphire & Steel- haven't seen it since it was first airing, so my recollections aren't very good. 
BSG Original- Um... some great ideas, but the continual re-use of the same footage for the space battles in every episode began to get annoying. 
Dollhouse- Considered it, but it's a little too ... Louie/Cosby for me ... in light of recent revelations. I really enjoyed it when it originally aired.
Person of Interest- D'oh! Should have been in my honorable mentions! 


....Automan? Really? Do you want to go into more detail on that one? I am ... confuddled by that choice.


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## payn (Jun 10, 2021)

I enjoyed Lexx but didn't make my greatest list.


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## MattW (Jun 10, 2021)

How can you forget the Gerry Anderson puppets?   Thunderbirds was much more convincing than Space: 1999.

Best non-American SF shows (that have not yet been mentioned)
1. Hitchhhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
2. Red Dwarf
3. Survivors (1970's version)
4. Max Headroom
5. Orphan Black
6. Black Mirror
7. Dirk Gently (the British one, starring Steven Mangan)
8. Humans
9. Primeval
10. The Sarah Jane Adventures


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## Ryujin (Jun 10, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Doctor Who (excluding Torchwood)
> The Avengers (John Steed version)
> Sapphire and Steel
> Tomorrow People (Thames Television)
> ...



Good to see someone remember "Stingray." I just finished re-re-rewatching the original "Captain Scarlet" and was wondering if I go to "Stingray" or "Thunderbirds" next. amazing how many of the model effects, sound effects, etc. made it into "UFO" and, later, "Space 1999." Captain Blue and Ed Straker, of "UFO", were played by the same actor; Ed Bishop.  (The live action "Thunderbirds" movie makes me shudder.)


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## Maxperson (Jun 10, 2021)

My list in no particular order

1. X-files
2. Twilight Zone
3. Dr. Who
4. The Outer Limits
5. Star Trek(TOS, Next Gen and DS9)
6. Battlestar Galactica(Old and New.  If you can twofer, so can I.)
7. Knight Rider
8. Stargate SG-1
9. Quantum Leap
10. Babylon 5


I'm throwing the Six Million Dollar man into honorable mentions.  I didn't have an ending, but 99 episodes and 6 TV movies makes it stand out. Fringe is going in the honorable mentions, because while it started out great, the last season wasn't very good.  Black Mirror also makes the honorable mentions list.


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## Tonguez (Jun 10, 2021)

MattW said:


> How can you forget the Gerry Anderson puppets?   Thunderbirds was much more convincing than Space: 1999.
> 
> Best non-American SF shows (that have not yet been mentioned)
> 1. Hitchhhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
> ...



I was going to list Red Dwarf too but the rules debarred comedy, I also included Sarah Jane Adventures in Doctor Who
I forgot Primeval but enjoyed its first season



Snarf Zagyg said:


> ....Automan? Really? Do you want to go into more detail on that one? I am ... confuddled by that choice.




I like the positivity of Automan, the FX for a TV show of the time was great, and the merge of super hero and buddy cop genre very much distilled the zeitgeist of the era whilst still maintaining a self deprecating sense of fun. Sci fi is too often dark and heavy, Automan managed to shine with digital light


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## nevin (Oct 8, 2021)

1 Star trek original
2 Babylon 5
3 Stargate
 4 Farscape
 5 Dr Who. Used to number 1 but has slipped The last two dr's.  Even great actors couldnt save the bad scripts
6. Person of interest
7. Quantum leap
8. warehouse 13
9. Eureka. (In spite terrible last season due to squeazing 2 or 3 seasons Into 5 episodes)
10. Killjoys

Honorable mentions

Space above and beyond
Dark matter
Altered carbon
Flash gordon 2014 series
Andromeda


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## payn (Oct 8, 2021)

I see _person of interest_ popped up again. I tried folks, I really tried, but I couldnt keep going. Every time there was a hint that the show was going to move in a serial direction, it snaps back. The formula is just bland and I cant handle it. 

Can somebody Spoiler season 3 on and let me know why the series is considered Sci-Fi and/or why it is great?


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## nevin (Oct 8, 2021)

payn said:


> I see _person of interest_ popped up again. I tried folks, I really tried, but I couldnt keep going. Every time there was a hint that the show was going to move in a serial direction, it snaps back. The formula is just bland and I cant handle it.
> 
> Can somebody Spoiler season 3 on and let me know why the series is considered Sci-Fi and/or why it is great?



Just the AI that has achieved full sentience qualifies it as scifi.  Not hard core like star trek but still Sci Fi


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## MarkB (Oct 8, 2021)

payn said:


> I see _person of interest_ popped up again. I tried folks, I really tried, but I couldnt keep going. Every time there was a hint that the show was going to move in a serial direction, it snaps back. The formula is just bland and I cant handle it.
> 
> Can somebody Spoiler season 3 on and let me know why the series is considered Sci-Fi and/or why it is great?



Basically, "The Machine" is confirmed to be true AI, and there is much exploration of the nature of AI, and in particular of how/if an AI could have any kind of conscience or concern for humanity.


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## payn (Oct 8, 2021)

nevin said:


> Just the AI that has achieved full sentience qualifies it as scifi.  Not hard core like star trek but still Sci Fi



I suppose. Its hard for me to buy in when POI is basically a police procedural modern version of _Renegade_ starring Lorenzo Llamas.


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## nevin (Oct 8, 2021)

payn said:


> I suppose. Its hard for me to buy in when POI is basically a police procedural modern version of _Renegade_ starring Lorenzo Llamas.



To each his own.  It is a good look at how future tech will most likely be used by sociopaths and governments.


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## Umbran (Oct 8, 2021)

nevin said:


> Just the AI that has achieved full sentience qualifies it as scifi.  Not hard core like star trek but still Sci Fi




"Hard core" is not a meaningful term here.

In addition, it will get confused with the term "hard sci-fi" which denotes how close a work keeps to real-world understanding of science in the time it was written.  On that score, Person of Interest is very much more hard sci-fi than Trek is (and I say this as a devoted Trek fan).


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## Umbran (Oct 8, 2021)

payn said:


> I suppose. Its hard for me to buy in when POI is basically a police procedural modern version of _Renegade_ starring Lorenzo Llamas.




So, just a question - how far did you get?

Because the series _starts_ that way.  It does eventually leave the episodic procedural behind.


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## payn (Oct 8, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, just a question - how far did you get?
> 
> Because the series _starts_ that way.  It does eventually leave the episodic procedural behind.



I got to season 3, which I was very excited because season 2 started moving away from the mundane crime fighting aspect, but then they hit the reset button in the first few episodes. Once it got to be more of the same, _but now with two super soldiers_, I gave up.


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## nevin (Oct 8, 2021)

Umbran said:


> "Hard core" is not a meaningful term here.
> 
> In addition, it will get confused with the term "hard sci-fi" which denotes how close a work keeps to real-world understanding of science in the time it was written.  On that score, Person of Interest is very much more hard sci-fi than Trek is (and I say this as a devoted Trek fan).



Conceded


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## payn (Oct 8, 2021)

I get why folks consider POI sci-fi. My issues is that it feels like a surface only gimmick, as far as I was able to get, and its really a police procedural drama.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 8, 2021)

payn said:


> I got to season 3, which I was very excited because season 2 started moving away from the mundane crime fighting aspect, but then they hit the reset button in the first few episodes. Once it got to be more of the same, _but now with two super soldiers_, I gave up.




So, most people think that Season 3 is the start of the "brilliant" run. When it really moved from "procedural, with hints of the story and the characters" to "full speed ahead."

That said, if you found nothing interesting about the show through two full seasons, maybe it's just not for you? For me, I realized somewhere around, oh, near the end of Season 1 that this was a show worth watching. If you're not feeling it by now, maybe it's not just not your cup of, um, tea?


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## payn (Oct 8, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> So, most people think that Season 3 is the start of the "brilliant" run. When it really moved from "procedural, with hints of the story and the characters" to "full speed ahead."
> 
> That said, if you found nothing interesting about the show through two full seasons, maybe it's just not for you? For me, I realized somewhere around, oh, near the end of Season 1 that this was a show worth watching. If you're not feeling it by now, maybe it's not just not your cup of, um, tea?



That was the original assessment, but I take you folks seriously and wanted to give it another go based on your high praise.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 8, 2021)

payn said:


> That was the original assessment, but I take you folks seriously and wanted to give it another go based on your high praise.




Well, the reason it earns such high praise is that it really gets into ...



Spoiler:  For real, regarding POI



...issues of free will, philosophy, and AI. It's not even very subtle- eventually, you get to the issues of whether or not AIs can be "good" or "evil," and what that might even mean. By season 3, when we are introduced to another AI (Samaritan) these ideas become very explicit. The difference between these two AIs, and the relationships they have with humanity (such as Finch and Root), is a core and fascinating issue that plays out throughout the reaminder of the series.

Also? It's pretty, pretty cool.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 8, 2021)

Risk if getting shot I wouldn't put a few if the classics in my top 5 eg Doctor Who or Star Trek. They're to inconsistent with a lot of bad episodes if not seasons. DS9 would probably make my top 10. 

1. Stargate Atlantis. 
2. Babylon 5
3/4 Farscape/ Stargate SG1 not sure on the order.

 I would argue these 4 were the most consistent. They may have had the occasional duff episode but overall were good. Using that logic.

5. DS9 Most consistent Trek, season 1 was decent. 
6. BSG reboot. 
7. Continuum. 
8.-10?

 Parts of Doctor Who could make it if you cherry pick certain seasons or the best of TNG. 

 Star Treks just to inconsistent from the original series through to the movies and every show. DS9 is the only one I've managed to watch in it's entirety and enjoy.

 Shows that screw up the ending badly or have entire dud seasons or ones that fall of the cliff don't really do it for me. 

 SG1 declined Ned season 9/10 but they weren't awful and some if it was good and most shows don't get a season 9/10.

 Atlantis I enjoyed start to finish very few dud episodes, liked the cast etc and didn't go long enough to have the decline SG1 did. May not hit the same heights as some other shows but avoids the rough patches as well.


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## Ryujin (Oct 8, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Risk if getting shot I wouldn't put a few if the classics in my top 5 eg Doctor Who or Star Trek. They're to inconsistent with a lot of bad episodes if not seasons. DS9 would probably make my top 10.
> 
> 1. Stargate Atlantis.
> 2. Babylon 5
> ...



I understand that Joe Flanigan tried buying the rights to Atlantis so that he could keep making it, but was turned down.


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## drl2 (Oct 14, 2021)

1.  Babylon 5
2. Galactica reboot (though I wasn't fond of the way it ended)
3+  - a hodge-podge of other stuff whose order would probably vary depending on my mood and which one I'd watched most recently.  ST:TNG and DS9 are in there somewhere but not the rest of the Treks (though I don't share the widespread hatred of Odyssey), along with Farscape, and... er... uh... need coffee.


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## nevin (Oct 14, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Risk if getting shot I wouldn't put a few if the classics in my top 5 eg Doctor Who or Star Trek. They're to inconsistent with a lot of bad episodes if not seasons. DS9 would probably make my top 10.
> 
> 1. Stargate Atlantis.
> 2. Babylon 5
> ...




Posting about wrong atlantis.  Deleted


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## Hex08 (Mar 8, 2022)

Based on the rules as given, my top 10 are:
1. The Expanse
2. Battlestar Galactica (the reboot)
3. Babylon 5
4. Twilight Zone (original)
5. Star Trek (Pre-Paramount+ era. No P+ shows are finished so including those would break the rules and Discovery is so, so bad)
6. Stargate (SG-1 & Atlantis)
7. X-Files
8. Fringe
9. Quantum Leap
10. Contiuum

Honorable mentions: Orphan Black, The Outer Limits & The Prisoner

Other than the top 3 spots I'm not really stuck on my order but for now those are my top 10.
-edited my list because Snarf says later The Expanse became eligible-


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## Mannahnin (Mar 9, 2022)

I don't have much to add here, but curious to ask, as I think it fits the criteria in the OP- any love for Alien Nation?


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## payn (Mar 9, 2022)

Mannahnin said:


> I don't have much to add here, but curious to ask, as I think it fits the criteria in the OP- any love for Alien Nation?



I always felt like Alien Nation (The film) was just an interesting twist on the drunk divorced almost fired detective who manages to save the day genre.


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## Mannahnin (Mar 9, 2022)

payn said:


> I always felt like Alien Nation (The film) was just an interesting twist on the drunk divorced almost fired detective who manages to save the day genre.



Sure.  How about the TV series, which did get one complete season before being cancelled, as well as five TV movies to continue the story?


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## Cadence (Mar 9, 2022)

Looking over the rules again, is Dark Angel eligible?  (It didn't get re-upped for season 3, but did have a finale episode).


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## payn (Mar 9, 2022)

Mannahnin said:


> Sure.  How about the TV series, which did get one complete season before being cancelled, as well as five TV movies to continue the story?



I'm less familiar with them. How was it?


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## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 9, 2022)

Mannahnin said:


> I don't have much to add here, but curious to ask, as I think it fits the criteria in the OP- any love for Alien Nation?






Cadence said:


> Looking over the rules again, is Dark Angel eligible?  (It didn't get re-upped for season 3, but did have a finale episode).




Both would be eligible-
1- Lasted a full season.
2- In English.
3- Drama.
4- THERE IS NO 4!
5- N/A
6- N/A
7- N/A
8- THERE ARE NO MULTIPLES OF 4! Private jokes are the best jokes.
9- N/A
10- Not animated.
11- Definitely Sci-fi.

So yeah, both Alien Nation and Dark Angel would be eligible. I think that they would be a tough sell ... if this was a list created in 1991 or 2003, they might have been on the list of top 10, maybe.

But the sheer number of great shows both before those shows, and more importantly, the number of shows getting pumped out since then means that I find it hard to believe that many people would put them on the list.

Heck, since I posted the list last year, _The Expanse _became eligible.


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## Ryujin (Mar 9, 2022)

payn said:


> I always felt like Alien Nation (The film) was just an interesting twist on the drunk divorced almost fired detective who manages to save the day genre.



Very true. Just like "Resident Alien" is essentially just a take on the weird small town genre, typified by shows like "Northern Exposure."


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## Cadence (Mar 9, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> So yeah, both Alien Nation and Dark Angel would be eligible. I think that they would be a tough sell ... if this was a list created in 1991 or 2003, they might have been on the list of top 10, maybe.
> 
> But the sheer number of great shows both before those shows, and more importantly, the number of shows getting pumped out since then means that I find it hard to believe that many people would put them on the list.




The wonder of not having cable is I haven't seen a ton of the newer ones...

In any case, I'm not sure I'd call Dark Angel great television or great science fiction -- but I thought it had a cast that worked really well together and were fun to watch (part of the show focusing on Max, and part being like an ensemble cast).   Is being a "comfort show" (like "comfort food") a thing?


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## payn (Mar 9, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Is being a "comfort show" (like "comfort food") a thing?



For sure. Typically, its stuff like Friends and Big Bang Theory, but I don't see why sci-fi shows cant fit the bill for folks.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 9, 2022)

Cadence said:


> The wonder of not having cable is I haven't seen a ton of the newer ones...
> 
> In any case, I'm not sure I'd call Dark Angel great television or great science fiction -- but I thought it had a cast that worked really well together and were fun to watch (part of the show focusing on Max, and part being like an ensemble cast).   Is being a "comfort show" (like "comfort food") a thing?




Certainly! There is nothing wrong with comfort. 

In my long backlog of posts that I haven't written, I was going to do something based on the "Unreturned Netflix DVD," which, back when Netflix was primarily known as a service that provided you three mail-order DVDs, was that one DVD.

We all had it. We'd order three DVDs. Two would be something fun, or comforting, or part of a TV series we were watching. And one was the "serious" film that was on our "to-do" list. 

And we'd get through the two DVDs, and return them, and ... just not watch the third. We'd keep cycling through the first two DVDs, while the Unreturned Netflix DVD would just sit there- Alphaville, or the Death of Mr. Lazerescu, or whatever. Because sometimes we want fun, not homework. 

Anyway, I'm currently watching, in addition to my serious shows, Santa Clarita Diet and Young Justice ... which is why I have this post right now-









						The DC Extended Animated Universe- A Consideration
					

I haven't been feeling like posting new threads recently (although I have one loosely based on Chuck Klosterman's excellent 90s book percolating), but I wanted to shine a spotlight on an oft-neglected, but kind of cool, part of the overall geek metaverse ... not to be confused with whatever The...




					www.enworld.org
				




But yeah, go Comfort TV!


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## Mannahnin (Mar 9, 2022)

Mannahnin said:


> Sure.  How about the TV series, which did get one complete season before being cancelled, as well as five TV movies to continue the story?






payn said:


> I'm less familiar with them. How was it?



Damned if I know!    I remember finding the initial show pretty compelling and a solid sci-fi prime time concept, but for whatever reason I'm the type of person who rarely sticks with TV shows.  I think I may be able to count the number of shows I've watched all the way through in my lifetime on my ten fingers*.

I enjoy reading other folks' criticism, though, and adding points to a vague amorphous "I'll get to that at some point" list in the back of my head.

(*Pondering this, the ones I can think of are:
ST: TOS
ST: TNG
Six Feet Under
Game of Thrones
Black Adder
Rome (but that's just two HBO seasons)
Extras (just two BBC series)
Cowboy Bebop (26 episodes mildly respectable, but still just one traditional TV season)
Firefly
Loki
Most of Monty Python
West Wing only the first 4 seasons, and started the 5th.
Simpsons I think I stopped following regularly after the first 4 or 5 seasons.
Red Dwarf probably 2-4 seasons/series.
I probably watched the entire runs of GI Joe, Thundercats, and original Transformers as a kid.
There are a bunch of other sitcoms I watched big chunks of as a kid in the 80s, but mostly just as time-fillers.)


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## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 9, 2022)

Mannahnin said:


> Damned if I know!    I remember finding the initial show pretty compelling and a solid sci-fi prime time concept, but for whatever reason I'm the type of person who rarely sticks with TV shows.  I think I may be able to count the number of shows I've watched all the way through in my lifetime on my ten fingers*.




Ugh! How can you do that!??!!

I am such a completist. If I start a show, I MUST FINISH IT.

Which is why I will never, ever, ever get back the countless hours of my life that were the last four seasons of Dexter.

I AM STILL BITTER.


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## Mannahnin (Mar 9, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Ugh! How can you do that!??!!
> 
> I am such a completist. If I start a show, I MUST FINISH IT.
> 
> ...



Hugs.  I generally am happy to abandon a show if it's not proving to be worth my time anymore.  The ones I've stuck with are pretty solid, and often ones I was specifically watching WITH friends or family.  

Actually that's one of my obstacles for getting into shows- usually if I'm just by myself I'd rather read, go on internet forums, or watch someone stream M:tG.  I prefer to watch TV shows with other people.


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## payn (Mar 9, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Ugh! How can you do that!??!!
> 
> I am such a completist. If I start a show, I MUST FINISH IT.
> 
> ...



I want the hours of my life back y'all told me about _Person of Interest_!


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## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 9, 2022)

payn said:


> I want the hours of my life back y'all told me about _Person of Interest_!




I don't know what to say ... that's a really good show. Seasons 3 and 4 are right up there with the best Fringe was putting out. IMO.

It's hard, though. There is just so much. I finally watched Counterpart, which is a show I had never heard about ... and it was so good ... and I can't believe it was cancelled. 

That's where we are now. Shows are getting released and cancelled without fanfare, shows that EASILY would have been considered the best things on TV in the 90s.


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## payn (Mar 9, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I don't know what to say ... that's a really good show. Seasons 3 and 4 are right up there with the best Fringe was putting out. IMO.



I couldnt get past how cartoony and episodic it was.


Snarf Zagyg said:


> It's hard, though. There is just so much. I finally watched Counterpart, which is a show I had never heard about ... and it was so good ... and I can't believe it was cancelled.



You're welcome. Also, couldn't believe it was cancelled. 


Snarf Zagyg said:


> That's where we are now. Shows are getting released and cancelled without fanfare, shows that EASILY would have been considered the best things on TV in the 90s.



I think part of it was _Counterpart_ was on Starz. Not many folks have access to it. _Black Sails_ was also (at times) amazing. _American Gods_ is pretty good too. _The Rook_ was meh.


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## Ryujin (Mar 9, 2022)

payn said:


> I couldnt get past how cartoony and episodic it was.
> 
> You're welcome. Also, couldn't believe it was cancelled.
> 
> I think part of it was _Counterpart_ was on Starz. Not many folks have access to it. _Black Sails_ was also (at times) amazing. _American Gods_ is pretty good too. _The Rook_ was meh.



It's a damned shame that we'll never get to see the end of "American Gods."


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 9, 2022)

How has no one mentioned Sliders? Sure, it changed channels and went out with a mediocre final season, but it was great for the first couple of seasons.


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## payn (Mar 9, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> How has no one mentioned Sliders? Sure, it changed channels and went out with a mediocre final season, but it was great for the first couple of seasons.



A fun show, with some inconsistent execution. Its notable, but certainly outclassed for a best of list.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 9, 2022)

payn said:


> A fun show, with some inconsistent execution. Its notable, but certainly outclassed for a best of list.




No my Best Of list.   

For example, I think Babylon 5 and Farscape were both muddled messes. And the original Battlestar Galactica's campiness was better than the reboot's grittiness.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 9, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> No my Best Of list.
> 
> For example, I think Babylon 5 and Farscape were both muddled messes. And the original Battlestar Galactica's campiness was better than the reboot's grittiness.




Ha!

You want camp?







Galactica 1980.  

ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTE.


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## payn (Mar 9, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Ha!
> 
> You want camp?
> 
> ...


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## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 9, 2022)

payn said:


>




Hey now!

By bringing in Buck Rogers, you're dangerously close to discussing something vaguely related to roleplaying games or TSR.

Can't have that at enworld!!!!!


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## Ryujin (Mar 9, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> How has no one mentioned Sliders? Sure, it changed channels and went out with a mediocre final season, but it was great for the first couple of seasons.



They lost me when they switched to the other brother.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 9, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> They lost me when they switched to the other brother.




Killing off John Rhys-Davies' character was the turning point for me. There were still good episodes after that, but it was not the same without his attitude.


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## Ryujin (Mar 9, 2022)

Does anyone remember "Primeval"? And no, I don't mean the stillborn American version.


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## MarkB (Mar 10, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Does anyone remember "Primeval"? And no, I don't mean the stillborn American version.



I remember it, but mostly in the sense of "that's taking up file space in my brain that I could be using for something useful".


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## BrokenTwin (Mar 10, 2022)

Man, it would be really hard for me to fill a top ten list of scifi shows. Top five, I think I could manage.

1. The Expanse. No question, I loved the books, I loved the show and its casting. One regrettable discovery about a member of the main cast aside.
2. Stargate Atlantis. One of my first real introductions to scifi, and a solid show for the majority of its episodes.
3. Deep Space 9. Not gonna lie, I had a hard time getting into most Star Trek. Everyone always talked about its engagement with philosophy, but ever time I tried to watch an episode I got cheesy scifi camp instead. DS9, on the other hand, had a few misses, but its tighter character focus made it a lot more enjoyable for me.

Hmm... already getting to the point where I don't know what shows I'd add to this list... I really need to watch more scifi... Andromeda started strong but was ruined by the lead actor in a spectacular fashion, Firefly doesn't meet the OP's requirements despite being a show I love, Dark Angel I loved as a kid and still have a fondness for, but was honestly not a great show quality wise... The Orville is shaping up to be a solid show, but isn't in a "finished" state, so it doesn't qualify either...


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## Ryujin (Mar 21, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Does anyone remember "Primeval"? And no, I don't mean the stillborn American version.



I must apologize for this statement. It wasn't a "stillborn American version", but a crappy Canadian version. Shot in Vancouver by CTV/Bell Media/eONE, with Canadian military trappings. They did obviously aim for the American market, however, as they kept on saying 'lewtennant' instead of 'leftennant.'


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