# Manyshot with a crossbow



## atomn (Oct 2, 2006)

The Manyshot feat specifies that "As a standard action, you may fire two _arrows _ at a single opponent within 30 feet."  (Emphasis added.)  Since crossbows use bolts instead of arrows, I'd say it couldn't be allowed technically.  Besides RAW, is there any game unbalancing reason not to allow Manyshot with a crossbow?

(While I'm a terribly far cry from a weapons expert, as a logic test I looked at some pictures of crossbows and while they generally only have one groove, I'd guess that physically they could still accomodate the Manyshot feat.  And there were even a certain type of Chinese crossbows, lian-nu, that had either up to three grooves for firing up to three bolts at a time.)

Anywho, any input would be great!  Thanks!


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## diaglo (Oct 2, 2006)

look up the rules on loading a crossbow in the RAW. it should give you the answer you seek.


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## Xath (Oct 2, 2006)

RAW, no.  Crossbows cannot fire with Manyshot.  However, in a game in which I am playing, there is an insane halfling fighter who only fights with a crossbow.  He's put max ranks into craft(bow) and has created a bizarre magical crossbow that has about 12 tiers for bolts.  He has manyshot, and the DM lets him use it. 

Check out (I think) the Arms and Equipment guide for crossbow enhancements.  There are several "extra" parts you can add to crossbows to make them fire faster/more efficiently.


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## atomn (Oct 2, 2006)

diaglo said:
			
		

> look up the rules on loading a crossbow in the RAW. it should give you the answer you seek.




Sorry, I'm not seeing it!  Do you have a page number?


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## diaglo (Oct 2, 2006)

atomn said:
			
		

> Sorry, I'm not seeing it!  Do you have a page number?





"Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action;* crossbows and slings require an action for reloading*"

under Light Crossbow: "Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity."

edit: this is all in the Equipment section


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## javcs (Oct 2, 2006)

What about Rapid Reload?


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## FireLance (Oct 2, 2006)

atomn said:
			
		

> Besides RAW, is there any game unbalancing reason not to allow Manyshot with a crossbow?



Not as far as I can see. Presumably, a crossbow could be made with multiple grooves to fire multiple bolts as a standard action, or a character with sufficient skill could fire multiple bolts from a standard crossbow at the same time with reasonable accuracy. The Multishot feat for crossbows should also allow a character to reload his crossbow with multiple bolts as a single move action (a free action with Rapid Reload).


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## atomn (Oct 2, 2006)

diaglo said:
			
		

> "Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action;* crossbows and slings require an action for reloading*"
> 
> under Light Crossbow: "Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity."
> 
> edit: this is all in the Equipment section




Ah, I thought maybe that's what you were getting at.  I forgot to mention I was assuming having Rapid Reload too.


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## irdeggman (Oct 2, 2006)

My opinion is that the crossbow is more limited due to mechanics. That is to say it's use is purely driven by mechanics (hence no STR bonus to shots) while the "regular" bows are more driven by skill.

This is also reflected, IMO, by the fact that crossbows are simple weapons and bows are martial ones.

Now if a special exotic crossbow were built . . . .


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## starwed (Oct 2, 2006)

It actually kind of bugs me that things like manyshot only work with bows.  I just don't see any balance reason behind it... does anyone see a reason why it shouldn't work with any type of ranged weapon?


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## Crothian (Oct 2, 2006)

starwed said:
			
		

> It actually kind of bugs me that things like manyshot only work with bows.  I just don't see any balance reason behind it... does anyone see a reason why it shouldn't work with any type of ranged weapon?




Because one can't load two bolts into a crossbow at once to be fired at the same time.


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## starwed (Oct 2, 2006)

> Because one can't load two bolts into a crossbow at once to be fired at the same time.



Just to be clear, I mean a _game balance_ reason.  (Besides which, your reason simply doesn't apply to knives, shuriken, or pretty much any ranged weapon except a crossbow.)


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## RigaMortus2 (Oct 2, 2006)

There is no game balance reason.  It's all about the flavor.  Just as allowing Power Attack to work with light weapons wouldn't "break" anything.  It certainly wouldn't unbalance anything, but for flavor reasons, Power Attack damage can not be applied to light weapons.


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## wayne62682 (Oct 2, 2006)

I find the easy solution is to "invent" a Double Crossbow that lets you fire two bolts at a -4 penalty (if you don't have the feat).  Like in Ladyhawke...


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## pawsplay (Oct 3, 2006)

Throwing two stones with a sling would just be dumb. A crossbow isn't quite as dumb, but still pretty dumb. A double crossbow might work, but it would be a bear to keep a true aim on.


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## FireLance (Oct 3, 2006)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Throwing two stones with a sling would just be dumb. A crossbow isn't quite as dumb, but still pretty dumb.



One man's "dumb" is another man's "cinematic".


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## pawsplay (Oct 3, 2006)

FireLance said:
			
		

> One man's "dumb" is another man's "cinematic".




Beating someone up with a scarf and a cureball is cinematic. Trying to fire a double crossbow would be like trying to play darts on an electric bull, unless you came up with a devilishly clever triggering mechanism. A double crossbow is fine for a volley, but accuracy?


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## starwed (Oct 3, 2006)

> Beating someone up with a scarf and a cureball is cinematic. Trying to fire a double crossbow would be like trying to play darts on an electric bull, unless you came up with a devilishly clever triggering mechanism. A double crossbow is fine for a volley, but accuracy?



But manyshot _is_ a volley!   (And as far as accuracy goes, you take a pretty hefty penalty to your attack.)

Besides, it's not like firing four arrows at the same time from a bow is the model of real world archery.


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## pawsplay (Oct 3, 2006)

starwed said:
			
		

> But manyshot _is_ a volley!   (And as far as accuracy goes, you take a pretty hefty penalty to your attack.)
> 
> Besides, it's not like firing four arrows at the same time from a bow is the model of real world archery.




First of all, they might be nocking them and firing them quickly. Secondly, I have at least seen two arrows fired at once with accuracy.


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## FireLance (Oct 3, 2006)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> First of all, they might be nocking them and firing them quickly.



So you'd allow Manyshot with a light or hand crossbow for someone with Rapid Reload? 

Anyway, I've always pictured nocking and firing quickly as a full attack with a bow and Manyshot as nocking two or more arrows which are fired simultaneously. In a recent game session, someone wanted to tie two flasks of holy water together and throw them simultaneously. The DM disallowed it, but that seems to me to be a reasonable way to use Manyshot with a thrown weapon. Using a small bag to hurl two sling stones or sling bullets simultaneously would be one way of pulling off Manyshot with a sling, and simply lining up crossbow bolts on the string doesn't seem to me to be very different from firing two arrows simultaneously from a bow. You've got a significant penalty to hit, but if you're skilled or lucky enough, I'm not going to say you can't pull it off.



> Secondly, I have at least seen two arrows fired at once with accuracy.



I hope you're not limiting the PCs in your game to doing only the things that you have seen.


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## atomn (Oct 3, 2006)

FireLance said:
			
		

> Anyway, I've always pictured <Manyshot> as nocking two or more arrows which are fired simultaneously.




That's what I've thought too.  Not that illustrations indicate a gaming law but that's the way Manyshot is depicted in a picture in the PHB.  And it explains why both arrows use the same attack roll.


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## pawsplay (Oct 4, 2006)

FireLance said:
			
		

> So you'd allow Manyshot with a light or hand crossbow for someone with Rapid Reload?




No, I would not. The picture in my mind was an archer holding his aim and shooting off a couple of arrows. Crossbows load mechanically. Short of gyro-stabilization, there is no way to get a similar effect with a crossbow.



> Anyway, I've always pictured nocking and firing quickly as a full attack with a bow and Manyshot as nocking two or more arrows which are fired simultaneously.




I think that's the default assumption.



> In a recent game session, someone wanted to tie two flasks of holy water together and throw them simultaneously. The DM disallowed it, but that seems to me to be a reasonable way to use Manyshot with a thrown weapon.




... as if there is such a thing, because Manyshot is for arrows. But I don't think that would be an effective throwing weapon, at least, as a double throwing weapon. Tying them together in an effective manner would just make it a larger dose of holy water, I think.



> Using a small bag to hurl two sling stones or sling bullets simultaneously would be one way of pulling off Manyshot with a sling,




If by "pulling off Manyshot" you mean, "sprinkling rocks to and fro in a fairly random fashion," sure. 



> and simply lining up crossbow bolts on the string doesn't seem to me to be very different from firing two arrows simultaneously from a bow.




Have you tried it? Crossbows, first of all, are grooved. Second, they launch mechanically, which uses a device calibrated for a single missile. Third, the recoil would be a serious problem.



> You've got a significant penalty to hit, but if you're skilled or lucky enough, I'm not going to say you can't pull it off.




You can throw your greatsword as in improvised weapon, if you want.



> I hope you're not limiting the PCs in your game to doing only the things that you have seen.




No. But having seen it, I can believe nocking two arrows is a tactic that might be reasonably successful in combat. I do not believe that of trying to launch more than one crossbow bolt.

How would you even load it? The string comes to a point at the bolt's nock when loaded. How would you load it such that both bolts touched the string? The bolt typically sits in a groove, and frequently has a platform behind it. How would you thread two crossbow bolts?  A crossbow is calibrated to one missile. What would the effect on range and power of each missile be if the energy were shared? Crossbows are aimed by "point and shoot," that is, by matching an expected arc to your aim. How would you get an accurate shot if each crossbow bolt was hit by vibration a fraction of a second into the launch?


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Oct 4, 2006)

It's not RAW, but I'd allow it.  It's hardly game breaking given the reload requirements for a crossbow.  In the same vein, I'd allow Manyshot to apply to thrown weapons as well.  "Realism" be damned -- it's just too cool to allow two daggers, or two shuriken, with one throw.


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## atomn (Oct 4, 2006)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> "Realism" be damned -- it's just too cool to allow two daggers, or two shuriken, with one throw.




I agree!


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## Xath (Oct 4, 2006)

FireLance said:
			
		

> In a recent game session, someone wanted to tie two flasks of holy water together and throw them simultaneously. The DM disallowed it, but that seems to me to be a reasonable way to use Manyshot with a thrown weapon.




Tying two flasks together with rope sounds like you're making bolas to me.  Exotic weapon proficiency, but there's the potential that you entangle/trip them when making the attack.


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## Solarious (Oct 4, 2006)

Xath said:
			
		

> Tying two flasks together with rope sounds like you're making bolas to me.  Exotic weapon proficiency, but there's the potential that you entangle/trip them when making the attack.



 So, basicly what you're saying is that you apply a -4 modifier for an improvised weapon? It sounds reasonable. I wouldn't allow it to entangle though, because one, it opens up precidence for weird rules interations, two, those holy water flasks aren't exactly balanced for bolaing someone with all that... er... holy water sloshing about, and three, it's dangerous to use real bolas without training. Realism may be damned in DnD, but it needs to be halfway believable too. Chains, ropes, and other 'soft' weapons require incredible skill, dexterity, and training/practice to master in real life, or it is much easier to hit yourself than it is to hit what needs hitting. We represent this as the feat 'Exotic Weapon Proficency' in DnD, which requires only a nonce of martial skill (+1 BAB, meaning it's a 3rd level feat for Commoners), but using a improvised bola weapon without a feat stretches credaibility, and we already have that with level 20-1hp Fighters fighting as well as a 290hp one.


			
				atomn said:
			
		

> "Realism" be damned -- it's just too cool to allow two daggers, or two shuriken, with one throw.



Agreed! This is DnD, where throwing Fireballs is practically normal, two daggers seems commonplace in comparison.


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## FireLance (Oct 4, 2006)

Xath said:
			
		

> Tying two flasks together with rope sounds like you're making bolas to me.  Exotic weapon proficiency, but there's the potential that you entangle/trip them when making the attack.



I probably could have expressed myself more clearly. He didn't have bolas in mind. Imagine two drink cans held together with a rubber band. That's the basic idea, except that it was two vials of holy water and some string.

And, from the tone of most of the comments, I'm starting to think that the Manyshot feat should be generalized like Rapid Shot to cover the ability to fire or throw two or more (if BAB permits) projectiles or thrown weapons of any sort. A feat and a -4 (or more) penalty to hit seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.


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