# What's the point of magic arrows?



## LordAO (Jan 25, 2004)

I recently got my 3.5 books and was planning on making an Arcane Archer. However, to my dread I saw the new rules on magical ammunition. The bow and arrow no longer stack. Further, the bow will even make your arrow magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction! I thought that maybe the bow added to hit and the arrows to damage. But to my dismay even that turned out to be incorrect.

The simple truth is, in 3.5 edition, there is absolutely no point to magic arrows. If you have a +5 bow, a +5 arrow will do nothing. Nothing at all, even though magic arrows have an enormous cost. This is even more disheartening for the Arcane Archer. The main feature of that class is the ability to enchant arrows for free as you shoot them. Yes, they still have that ability, but it is now worthless to any character who has a magical +X bow. Arcane Archers used to be the kings of penetrating damage reduction, yet a simple +1 bow makes even that pointless.

Yeah, I suppose I could load up my bow with special abilities, but there is still the annoyance of having the base +1 bonus (which all weapons must have before any special abilities can be added) go to waste. This is also true of ammunition. Yeah, I suppose there would be a point to flaming, holy, etc arrows if your bow doesn't have that ability, but the base +1 is a waste. And why would anyone get a stack of 50 +5 arrows when they could buy a +5 bow for the same price (50,000 gold)?   

I simply do not understand the thinking of the designers on this one. Overall my impressions of 3.5 have been a good. I love the new ranger, i like alot of the spell and feat revisions, the skills, etc. There are very few rules I have not liked, but this one is definately not a good one, IMHO. I can see where they were coming from in thinking that perhaps an archer with a +5 bow and +5 arrow is too much, but my group has never had any problem with archers being overpowered before. If anything, it helped to copensate for many of the weaknesses they have compared to melee and the ridiculous cost of magical ammunition. And it certainly made the Arcane Archer a worthwhile class.

Can anyone shed some light on this? Am I reading it wrong? Is there something I'm missing? Why would WOTC do this? And if they planned on making magical ammunition pointless, why do they even still have +arrows in the game? And why didn't they give the Arcane Archer somthing to compensate for the enormous loss he has suffered as a result these changes?


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## Christian (Jan 26, 2004)

You're reading it right, there's nothing you're missing, and Arcane Archers have been shafted with the new edition. As to what the designers were thinking-hey, we're not mind readers here! But I'm guessing that the concern was that archers' combat bonuses topped out at +10/+10 while melee characters couldn't get more than +5/+5. The expendability of ammunition was irrelevant for characters with access to the Greater Magic Weapon spell. And for the change to bows (instead of just ammunition) counting for DR penetration, well, I guess that was just part of the "let's decrease the relevance of DR" philosophy in 3.5 ...


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## Liminal Syzygy (Jan 26, 2004)

I believe the issue was that stacking the hit and damage bonuses from ranged weapon and their ammunition made archery too powerful, especially when greater magic weapon (which they actually toned down as well) and other buffs were added.

On the positive side, if you go the AA route you can just stick with a +1 bow and add flaming/shock type enhancements to it. Also, the fact that bows add their enchantment bonuses to ammunition helps archers a lot against 3.5 DR. It's a lot easier to carry around a few non-enchanted special material arrows than a weapon of each material... so with a minor expenditure, archers can easily overcome magic and silver, magic and cold iron, magic and adamantine.


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## Ds Da Man (Jan 26, 2004)

Evened out the field a little! Ummmm....rapid shot with manyshot, with a +3-5 bow and +3-5 arrows, archers are already overpowered. Besides, I thought prestige classes were for flavor, not just awesome bonuses. Archers get 2 attacks per round at first, have to only dump points in one stat to get great attack and defense bonuses, and now can get even more idiotic uber-abilities with manyshot and such. Ohhh...the humanity!!!


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## Spatzimaus (Jan 26, 2004)

There's a few separate debates here, that all got rolled into the "Arcane Archers got teh shaft!" topic which has come up a few times since 3.5E came out.

1> In 3E, archery was overpowered.

Personally, I agreed with this statement.  It's not that the style itself was too powerful (well, except Manyshot), it was just simply the mechanics of the stacking rules that favored them too heavily.  A melee person couldn't enchant his sword twice, after all.

My personal house rule was to cut the cost of bows and arrows in half (1000 x N^2, like armors), but have bow Enhancements only add to bow hardness/HP and attack rolls (which precluded enchantments like Flaming, since that didn't affect the attack roll), while arrow Enhancements only added to damage and DR penetration.  The 3.5E version is just fine, though, and is probably less of a headache in the long run.

2A> In 3E, creating permanent magical arrows was too expensive.
2B> In 3E, it was dirt cheap to cast Greater Magic Weapon on a bunch of arrows each day, gaining plenty of +5 arrows with no XP and a cost of only one midlevel slot.

Like everyone else in existence, I ended up house ruling GMW to something more reasonable.  So, most of the arrows my archers fired were mundane, since they couldn't afford the good stuff.  Coincidentally, this would have helped to solve problem #1 too.

3> The AA now doesn't get the benefit of a bow with a big Enhancement bonus.

As Cordo already pointed out, the AA is now free to use a +1 Flaming Wounding Holy bow instead, without feeling obligated to go Enhancement at all costs.  Or, look at it as, the AA is no longer obligated to use anything other than mundane bows, which should save a bit on expense and/or spell slots.  Pick up a random, poorly-made bow, string a mundane arrow, and you still get the same Enhancement bonus someone with a really expensive bow would have.

Alternatively, replace the AA with Nifft's version (see the House Rules forum), which is just so nicely balanced that he should be slapped silly on general principle for not being Munchkin enough.  Besides actually giving some spellcasting progression, the AA can pick things other than Enhancement bonus to bestow on his arrows.

4> The AA is still just so BORING!

See above.


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## irdeggman (Jan 26, 2004)

A mighty bow is not magical and hence it would 'stack' with magical arrows.

I agree with the opinon that 3.0 had far too many things stacked in favor of archery and like the 3.5 rules concerning ammunition and weapons.  I also like how they resolved the shield/armor issue.

Magical arrows were always kind of wimpy and an afterthought in my mind anyway.  I mean they were one-time use (unless you missed and then you had a 50% chance of losing them). Why make magical arrows if you can make a magical bow instead?  For one thing it is cheaper and faster to make the arrows so you could equip an 'army' of archers vice a character or two.  It would be possible to add special properties to the arrows that as long as they are different than the ones possessed by the bow would indeed stack.  Like the sonic and flaming family of bonuses.


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## Zad (Jan 26, 2004)

I've been plaing an Arcane Archer for a long time now. I can tell you some things:

1. Archery was not radically overpowered in 3e. I did the math, (which I hadn't seen anyone else do) and saw that it wasn't. But that's not relevant any more

2. Arcane Archers got the shaft in 3.5. I mean they really got hosed. The designers should have revisited the class and changed it, but they didn't. And they were slightly underpowered to begin with.


If you're thinking about an AA, I totally agree with Spatzimaus - go take a look at the variant Nifft write up and And here's the link. It really is a great variant, and puts the "arcane" back into the class. I just converted to it but so far it's good.


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## Ottergame (Jan 26, 2004)

Manyshot isn't a problem, it can't be used with any other attacks in a round unless you have haste.  It's it's own special standard action and not an attack standard action.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 26, 2004)

I don`t think Arcane Archers are underpowered just because Bow & Arrows Enhancement Bonus do no longer stack.

The Arcane Archer does not need to worry about the enhancement bonus of his bow. +1 is sufficient, the rest of his money can be spend on damage enhancing abilities (Flaming, Holy, Bane etc. pp.) 
If he loses his bow, it is still bad, but if he gets a replacement (even a nonmagical), he still has his special abilities available and a good magic weapon.

He doesn`t have the big "golfbag of weapons" problem. He just needs Ellhonas Quiver and can buy special material arrows and switch to the needed arrow whenenver neccessary. 
He can even decide to save some money if he buys a few bane arrows for different types of monsters - probably much cheaper than improving the bows enhancement itself. (Remember the quadratic increase in price). Upgrading from a +4 to an effective +5 equivalent costs 18.000 gp - you could by 450 Bane Arrows or 225 [alignment] arrows from that money. (Or a Glove of Dexterity +4 and 50 bane arrows)
And whenever he is forced to switch his arrows, he still can use Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialisation with the bow. (Unlike a fighter who probably doesn`t have 6 Greatswords with him, each made from different material or quality to be prepared for the different monsters he might encounter)

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Plane Sailing (Jan 26, 2004)

Zad said:
			
		

> 1. Archery was not radically overpowered in 3e. I did the math, (which I hadn't seen anyone else do) and saw that it wasn't. But that's not relevant any more




You mean math like "the archer can take full attacks every round without having to expose himself to a full attack in return like the melee fighter"

or

"The archer could get +10 hit, +10 damage from magic while the fighter could only get +5/+5"


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## Darklone (Jan 26, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> You mean math like "the archer can take full attacks every round without having to expose himself to a full attack in return like the melee fighter"
> 
> or
> 
> "The archer could get +10 hit, +10 damage from magic while the fighter could only get +5/+5"



Hey, I remember these 10 pager threads. Luved dem! 

Let's go at it again?


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## Zad (Jan 26, 2004)

> You mean math like "the archer can take full attacks every round ...



Don't forget all those AoO's that the archer doesn't get  

The answer is: The math that countered the argument that the archer was doing an order of magnitude more damage than the melee character. Contributing factors were discussed but can't be given mathematical weight.

Of course it was done under 3e rules, and with the changes in archery and two-handed fighting the math would be all wrong now.


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## ruleslawyer (Jan 26, 2004)

Zad said:
			
		

> Don't forget all those AoO's that the archer doesn't get



Or provoke  


> _The answer is: The math that countered the argument that the archer was doing an order of magnitude more damage than the melee character. Contributing factors were discussed but can't be given mathematical weight._



Let's see that math, then. Oh, and if you're leaving out "contributing factors," it's hardly _useful_ math, is it?

As for the arcane archer: The PrC has been headed for a fall from Day 1. Its primary ability (access to fancy arrows) is something that can be duplicated by someone of any class; the fact that a cheap-and-easy _spell_ could do it just adds insult to injury. Saving cash on some magical arrows or, worse still, a _wand of greater magic weapon_ isn't exactly a candidate for #1 hot-and-heavy PrC ability.

Much better "arcane archers" include the oh-so-simple Ftr/Wiz/Eldritch Knight or just a straight-up multiclass.


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## EPRock (Jan 26, 2004)

Benefits of magical ammunition. 

If you are an arcane archer and can imbue magical arrows with a +5 enhancement bonus then you can have a +1 Magical bow with 9 additional special abilities.

You could have a +1 Composite longbow (+3) of Distance, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Holy, Speed.

Magical amunition found can be split among party members who rarely use bows, but need additional bonuses to hit, and do not spend much money on their range weapons.


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## Darklone (Jan 26, 2004)

> What's the point of magic arrows?



The sharp tip usually made of steel.


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## Ithilorien (Jan 26, 2004)

As I see it, there are three solutions to this problem.

1) Use a homebrewed version of the Arcane Archer. Nifft's is particularly good, if I do say so myself.

2) Use a "light dip" into Arcane Archer. For example, build your character as a Fighter 2/Wizard 3/Spellsword 1/Arcane Archer 2 (for Imbue Arrow)/Eldritch Knght 10 this cheats you out of the cool concept/skill list of a "pure" arcane archer, but is really quite handy in other regards.

3) Simply rule that Arcane Archer's gain an unnamed bonus to their arrows rather than an enhancement bonus.

I think I prefer number 1, Nifft's AA is great, and I'm working on my own version which blends his with a touch of another alternate AA from the WizO boards.


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## LordAO (Jan 26, 2004)

EPRock said:
			
		

> Benefits of magical ammunition.
> 
> If you are an arcane archer and can imbue magical arrows with a +5 enhancement bonus then you can have a +1 Magical bow with 9 additional special abilities.




That's the only thing I could think of as to why an Arcane Archer would be viable in the new rules. Having a +5 enchantment AND 9 points of special abilities on my bow could be pretty cool. I am very tempted by Speed (isn't it only +3 now?), and the elemental ones (Flaming, Shocking, etc) are always good.

The question for me now is whether or not it's worth it to get the Arcane Archer class or simply stay a Ranger. We are making level 9 characters, and I was thinking of having either a Ranger 9 or a Ranger 6/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer 2. I have enough money for a +5 bow, but what i do with the extra 4 points depends upon which class I go with.

Any suggestions?


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## James McMurray (Jan 26, 2004)

Don't get speed. It doesn't with HAste, and HAste now affects the entire party, so you should be able to get your wizardly type to hook you up. If not, boots of speed are much less costly.

Whichever route you go, look into Foe Hunter arrows (or the enhancement for your bow). Doubling your ranger favored enemy bonus is much nicer in 3.5 than in 3.0.

I've never played an AA though, so that's about the extent of the comments I can make.


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## LordAO (Jan 26, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> Don't get speed. It doesn't with HAste, and HAste now affects the entire party, so you should be able to get your wizardly type to hook you up. If not, boots of speed are much less costly.




Good point. Unfortunately we don't have a Wizard or Sorcerer in our group, so I can't depend on others to haste me. The boots are an option, but aren't they only 10 rounds per day?



			
				James McMurray said:
			
		

> Whichever route you go, look into Foe Hunter arrows (or the enhancement for your bow). Doubling your ranger favored enemy bonus is much nicer in 3.5 than in 3.0.




Foe Hunter arrows?!    Are those in the DMG? They sound really cool!


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## Liminal Syzygy (Jan 27, 2004)

LordAO said:
			
		

> The boots are an option, but aren't they only 10 rounds per day?



Yes, only 10 rounds per day, but they are much better then they were in 3.0 since activating them is a free action. That allows you to basically pick and choose the rounds when you can make best use of them and turn them off and on at will, conserving the rounds.


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## James McMurray (Jan 27, 2004)

Foe Hunter is a wepon enhancement from MotW. If you're sticking to core 3.5, they won't be available.


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## tensen (Jan 27, 2004)

The incentive is to put the special abilities on the bow.

As a DM, when the time comes to give my PCs a +3 weapon.  I would probably give them a +1 distance bane bow, and then think about giving them a quiver of +3 arrows...  and such on up the levels.  And if I was buying an item I probably would do the same.


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## pawsplay (Jan 28, 2004)

Imagine, if you will, a +1 holy composite longbow, bane vs. dragons.  When fighting an evil dragon, you now have a choice between +1 flaming arrows and +1 frost arrows, depending on the dragon.  Or, if it's a really big green dragon, maybe +1 arrows of wounding.  Cast greater magic weapon, giving you a nice enhancement bonus.  

You end up with a mid-level character shooting with a +3 (+5 v dragons) bonus, doing +4d6 +fire/cold/Con damage/whatever.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 28, 2004)

Hmm....


Some Number Crunching
I am not sure if I have all names right - probably not - but you get the idea.

A +1 Holy Lawful(or Chaotic) Composite Mighty +5 Longbow of Flaming Burst, Frost Burst, Keen with +1 Arrows of Shocking Burst, Acid Burst, Sonic Burst.
Cost:
200.000 gp for the bow and 98.000 gp for 50 arrows. 
Allows you to deal a damage of
1d8+5(from Strength)+5(from Arcana Archer Enhancement Bonus) +5d6 (various energy damage) +4d6 (various alignment based damage). 
= 1d8+9d7+10
In case of a Critical, it would be 3d8+30+34d6.

Realistically, the damage would be lower, since most monsters that you have to attack with such a killer bow will be immune(resistant to some of the damage types.

I think, the more interesting thing is the flexibility. Since we all now that most enemies cannot be harmed with all types of energy, you could have a bigger sortiment of arrows, and you would probably consider to chose the bow enhancement bonus a little different.
(It might be a bit useless to combine both cold and fire effects - though many monsters are not resistant nor immune to both types of damage).

If I remeber correctly, the 3.5 Bane enhancement is only a +1 enhancement equivalent, so you could have a Bow with Dragon, Giant, Demon, Devil, Undead, Abberation, Drow and Ooze Bane. (But probably it would be more useful to only have appropriate arrows for this  )

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Telperion (Jan 28, 2004)

I browsed trough this thread so please excuse me if the following is already stated elsewhere:

The 3.5 Damage Reduction is fairly annoying when it comes to close-up fighters. You basically have to have a golfbag full of different swords, and preferrably a cleric around, to get trough various DR's. But with arrows I don't see such a great problem.

10 x adamantine
+
10 x silver
+
10 x Iron, cold
+
10 x Normal or Mihtral
=
2 quivers full of arrows, which doesn't sound impossible to carry around. 

With those alone, and the spells _Align Weapon_ and _Magic Weapon, Greater_ you could over-come most of the Damage Reduction you'll run into. Of course the damage is going to be Piercing (no going around that), but it's a whole lot nicer than lugging around half a dozen swords, clubs and axes.

As for magic arrows? Well, they are considerably easier to create (as I recall) and not everyone is going to be carrying around that +X Mighty Composite X Longbow. Also buying special arrows for a special purpose doesn't seem like such a bad idea, if someone bothered to scout the target and find a little more about him/her/it. Even if all party members aren't great archers they only have to hit their targets for the special effects to come into play. Such as: _Slaying, Sleep, Screaming_...


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## MiB (Jan 28, 2004)

*Archers in 3.5*

Well, I do think that archers did get a little slap in the face in 3.5. On the other hand I think they deserved it. Most reasons have been mentioned here in detail, but ist basically the stacking of enhancements that was taken away.

An often overlooked fact seems to be that there is no limit on the "Mighty" part of a composite bow in 3.5 anymore. 100 gp linear per point of "+" is also affordable, so it is now feasible to walk arround with a Mighty +7 or +10 bow and wait to get buffed. The -2 to attacks that you take can easily be compensated by your BAB and Dex.

Also, don't forget that fighters now get Greater Weapon Spec, which wasn't there in 3.0 and makes the Rapid Shot even more useful.

Overall, I think that reducing the damage potential of ranged archery was a good choice, but making high Strength even more valuable wasn't.


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## MerakSpielman (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm confused. I thought in 3.5 the +value of the bow itself was only added to the to-hit roll, and the +value of the arrow was only added to the damage roll.

If that's not the case, that's how I think it _should _be. Magic arrows would still be useful because they deal more damage.


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## slingbld (Jan 28, 2004)

You have to remember the overlapping rule. If you have a +1 bow & fire +5 arrows the bonuses may not stack but they do overlap. So a +5 arrow shot out of a +1, holy, icy burst, etc, etc, etc bow would get the +5 bonus from teh arrows.


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## James McMurray (Jan 28, 2004)

You don't need a golf bag. HAving an adamantium or cold iron weapon and a few doses of silversheen will get you past most DR. For the rest, you can either have a backup weapon and align weapon spells, or simply not overcome it.

DR in 3.5 is not meant to be overcomee all the time, its meant to be an impediment. Its much better than 3.0 where you had to have the appropriate weapon or not deal any damage at all (unless you were ouputting massive amount already).


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## MerakSpielman (Jan 28, 2004)

Yes, NOT overcoming the DR is always a viable option. Some people still insist on their golf bags, though, feeling that doing 5-10 fewer hp of damage per round is simply unacceptable.


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## Vysirez (Jan 29, 2004)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Yes, NOT overcoming the DR is always a viable option. Some people still insist on their golf bags, though, feeling that doing 5-10 fewer hp of damage per round is simply unacceptable.




When you are TWF with light weapons doing 5-10 less damage per hit means your pretty worthless. That is one of the reasons people worry about the golf bag issue. For a THF it's not as bad no.


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## Ithilorien (Jan 29, 2004)

Vysirez said:
			
		

> When you are TWF with light weapons doing 5-10 less damage per hit means your pretty worthless. That is one of the reasons people worry about the golf bag issue. For a THF it's not as bad no.




Off topic, but: If you're a two-weapon fighter capable of only doing 5-10 with each attack you're pretty worthless to begin with.

TWF is not valuable unless you're adding a lot of damage with the extra attacks (either through sneak attack, magic weapons, or some other source) otherwise two-handed or sword and board is the way to go.


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## MerakSpielman (Jan 29, 2004)

Hopefully when you begin fighting DR 5 creatures, you deal, on average, >5 damage per hit. Hopefully, by the time you run into DR 10 creatures, you deal >10 damage per hit. Just bear in mind that the CR for the creature doesn't necessarily assume you have the capability of bypassing the DR, you might just have to spend twice as long whittling it down, round after round.


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## Gez (Jan 29, 2004)

Since the bow's and arrow's plusses no longer stack, do you get to add your Dex bonus to damage, now?

I always considered "3.O" stacking as the compensation for not being able to Power Attack or add Str to damage.


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## Nail (Jan 29, 2004)

Gez said:
			
		

> Since the bow's and arrow's plusses no longer stack, do you get to add your Dex bonus to damage, now?



Nope.


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## Nail (Jan 29, 2004)

Back on Topic: Arcane Archer

I'm kinda partial to *DrSpunj*'s re-build of the Arcane Archer right here.


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## MerakSpielman (Jan 29, 2004)

Gez said:
			
		

> Since the bow's and arrow's plusses no longer stack, do you get to add your Dex bonus to damage, now?
> 
> I always considered "3.O" stacking as the compensation for not being able to Power Attack or add Str to damage.



No, you don't, but that's a good idea for a feat:

Penetrating Shot (or some other, better name)
Prerequisite: Precise Shot, Dex 13+
Benefit: For every point of Dex bonus and not exceeding your base attack bonus, you may subtract 1 from your to-hit roll with a dex-based missile weapon and add 1 to the damage.


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## Ransom (Jan 29, 2004)

LordAO said:
			
		

> Further, the bow will even make your arrow magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction!




Last I check bows can imbue magical abilities (i.e Flaming, shocking) but don't make arrows magical to overcome DR.


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## James McMurray (Jan 29, 2004)

Then you haven't checked since 3.5 came out.


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## DrSpunj (Jan 29, 2004)

Ransom said:
			
		

> Last I check bows can imbue magical abilities (i.e Flaming, shocking) but don't make arrows magical to overcome DR.





			
				3.5 DMG said:
			
		

> Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.



Hope that helps.

DrSpunj


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## Ithilorien (Jan 29, 2004)

Here's "my" arcane archer homebrew:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1341142#post1341142

A little of Nifft, a little of Cesare, hopefully a lot better than the DMG 3.5 version without being overpowered.


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## LordAO (Jan 30, 2004)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> I'm confused. I thought in 3.5 the +value of the bow itself was only added to the to-hit roll, and the +value of the arrow was only added to the damage roll.
> 
> If that's not the case, that's how I think it _should _be. Magic arrows would still be useful because they deal more damage.




That's orignally what I thought as well. But that is not the case. A +5 bow adds +5 to hit and damage, as do +5 arrows, but the bow and arrow do not stack, only the highest one applies.

It's too bad they didn't do it that way, as it would make it so that there would be apoint to having an enhancement bonus on both your bow and your arrows. The way they do it now is kind of ridiculous, IMHO.


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## Cheiromancer (Jan 30, 2004)

So I guess the point for magic arrows is to provide treasure for low level parties.

Fifty +1 arrows costs a little over 2000 gp, so that's only 40 gp per arrow.


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## James McMurray (Jan 30, 2004)

LordAO said:
			
		

> It's too bad they didn't do it that way, as it would make it so that there would be apoint to having an enhancement bonus on both your bow and your arrows. The way they do it now is kind of ridiculous, IMHO.





It would also make arhery way too expensive, as you'd have to pay double what the meleer is paying in order to equal their magical benefits. Perhaps if they cost half of what they do now, but you'd still have to pay more for archery in the long run because arrows are used up quickly.


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## James McMurray (Jan 30, 2004)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> So I guess the point for magic arrows is to provide treasure for low level parties.
> 
> Fifty +1 arrows costs a little over 2000 gp, so that's only 40 gp per arrow.




That's one of them. Another would be versatility. You can have +1 lycanthrope bane arrows for when you need them, etc.


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