# Ravnica: Is This The New D&D Setting? [UPDATED & CONFIRMED!]



## Morrus (Jul 22, 2018)

We're apparently going to hear some information about D&D settings on the 23rd (which is tomorrow). However, interestingly, something has popped up on Amazon! A hardcover with a release date of *November 20th 2018*, it's called *D&D Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica*. ​"D&D Guildmasters" might refer to the Dungeon Master's Guild, and the setting being opened up for use there by fans with this initial book providing the introductory framework, although it might instead refer to the various guilds in the setting.

So, what's Ravnica? It's a *Magic: the Gathering* setting (you can read more about it here), described as "a plane whose main planet is covered in a large city, also referred to as Ravnica. It takes its flavor from that of Eastern Europe." 



View attachment 99599​

*Explore a worldwide cityscape filled to the brim with adventure and intrigue in this campaign setting for the world's greatest roleplaying game*
A perpetual haze of dreary rain hangs over the spires of Ravnica. Bundled against the weather, the cosmopolitan citizens in all their fantastic diversity go about their daily business in bustling markets and shadowy back alleys. Through it all, ten guilds--crime syndicates, scientific institutions, church hierarchies, military forces, judicial courts, buzzing swarms, and rampaging gangs--vie for power, wealth, and influence. These guilds are the foundation of power on Ravnica. They have existed for millennia, and each one has its own identity and civic function, its own diverse collection of races and creatures, and its own distinct subculture. Their history is a web of wars, intrigue, and political machinations as they have vied for control of the plane.

Here's hoping we'll hear more about it tomorrow. Previous indications were that on the 23rd we'd hear about two D&D settings, and the most popular guesses seem to be related to opening them up on the DM's Guild for use by authors.

*UPDATE! Conformation just arrived by email from WotC's PR company:*

RENTON, WA. – July 23, 2018 – Wizards of the Coast is psyched to announce the first collaboration on a major product between Dungeons & Dragons and Magic: The Gathering with Guildmasters’ Guide to Ravnica releasing everywhere on November 20. The book will contain everything fans need to play D&D in the world-spanning city of Ravnica, the fan-favorite Magic setting populated by ten rival guilds, each with its own ethos and agenda. Wizards is also announcing D&D fans can now return to a magic-heavy noir setting with Wayfinder’s Guide to Eberron, a new document written by Keith Baker available online now. The exploration of these settings is a testament to how fan excitement can shape where D&D travels to next. 
“Fans of Dungeons & Dragons and Magic: The Gathering have been asking for years about when these two amazing brands would play together,” said Nathan Stewart, director of D&D. “With the huge surge in popularity of D&D and Magic’s commitment to bring the lore and storytelling to life, the timing seemed perfect. Ravnica is full of adventure possibilities and I can’t wait for fans to jump in to embody a member of one the iconic guilds. I will personally be making a new character for Rakdos.”

“This fall, Magic returns to the beloved plane of Ravnica with the release of the Guilds of Ravnica set for the trading card game and the D&D book Guildmasters’ Guide to Ravnica which will include classes, races, monsters and setting information on the ten opposing guilds,” said Elaine Chase, Vice President, Global Brand Strategy & Marketing for Magic: The Gathering. “It’s super cool for fans of D&D and Magic to be playing together in the same multiverse.”

“We’re excited for fans to dive deeper into the robust world of Ravnica as they adventure as a member of their favorite guild,” said Aaron Forsythe, Senior Design Director for Magic: The Gathering. “Picking up Guildmasters’ Guide to Ravnica is a great way for D&D and Magic fans alike to tell a part of Ravnica’s story with their friends around the table.”

More enfranchised D&D fans may know that Keith Baker created the Eberron setting as part of the Fantasy Setting Search conducted in 2002, and the D&D team has been working with him to update the setting. The first step is the Wayfinder’s Guide to Eberron, a digital release in the Dungeon Masters Guild online marketplace, which will serve to collect feedback on adjusted races, dragon marks, new backgrounds and more. Fans can also use this document as a jumping off point to create their own monsters, adventure modules, and other tabletop content set within Eberron and put it up for sale on the Dungeon Masters Guild (dmsguild.com).

“It's been sixteen years since I planted the first seeds that would become Eberron, and watching it grow has been an amazing journey,” Keith Baker, creator of Eberron. “So many good people have been involved in creating the world we see today, and it's been wonderful to see it come to life. I can't wait to see what people do with the world!”

Since the inception of Dungeons & Dragons fifth edition with the public playtest involving more than 175,000 fans and continuing with the current record-breaking success of the brand, the focus has been on listening to fan feedback. D&D is excited to travel to Ravnica and Eberron in 2018 and other planes beyond in 2019!

Also, in our podcast this week, we did SCIENCE! We weighed some D&D books and compare them to the stated weight on Amazon of the _Ravnica_ setting book, thus scientifically extrapolating the page count. Of course, by the time the podcast goes out on Wed they'll have announced it anyway... but tune in on Wednesday to see how close we are!


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## Magus Darkwind (Jul 22, 2018)

While I'm not against using D&D to fill out M:tG settings (Ravnica sounds interesting!), shouldn't they be concentrating on other D&D settings first?


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## JonnyP71 (Jul 22, 2018)

I'd never heard of it, so never played a game it... quick google, Magic the Gathering setting. That'll be why.

/startsarcasm

Oh joy.

/endsarcasm


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## Antonio Fernandes (Jul 22, 2018)

Interesting response on reddit:

I'm not saying this is fake, I'm saying this is a placeholder for the actual release.

Ravnica. City of guilds. A plane whose main planet is covered in a large city, also referred to as Ravnica.

A setting where the city is the entire reason for going there. A place that isn't Faerun. A place where the inhabitants have an entirely different way of life than that in the Realms. A place where you could meet anybody, make any deal, where travelers from across the planes meet.

Does this sound familiar?

Ladies and gentlemen, you're looking at the placeholder for Sigil.


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## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Looks like:

*Book*
View attachment 99594

*Map Pack
*View attachment 99595

*Dice*
View attachment 99596


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## Remathilis (Jul 22, 2018)

If this is Monday's announcement instead of Eberron, Planescape, or any other actual D&D setting, I'm gonna be mad. I'll probably still buy it, but I'll be mad.


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## darjr (Jul 22, 2018)

Ravnica sounds awesome! I love the title. I wonder if this will work into AL somehow?


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## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Antonio Fernandes said:


> Interesting response on reddit:
> 
> I'm not saying this is fake, I'm saying this is a placeholder for the actual release.
> 
> ...




I had that thought. 
That they needed to give Amazon and retailers information sooner than they wanted for the "reveal" and rather than use a codename for the books they used this. 
I'm not sure I believe that...

First, it feels a little like desperation or denial. "It's not true. They're still doing the book I want... this is just a ruse!!"

Secondly, this fake name would be a _colossal_ dick move. Because there's enough MtG/D&D crossover that this will get people excited. Thrilled by the idea of actual setting lore for Ravnica. And then if they take that away, those fans will be upset. It's needlessly upsetting a portion of the fanbase. 
People get a little excited by the codenames, but not to the same extent they'll get for the idea of this book.

Third, the ISBN is associated with that book: 
https://isbnsearch.org/isbn/9780786966592


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## darjr (Jul 22, 2018)

View attachment 99597


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## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> If this is Monday's announcement instead of Eberron, Planescape, or any other actual D&D setting, I'm gonna be mad. I'll probably still buy it, but I'll be mad.



This is very likely the first 5e book I will skip. 
Super disappointed. There's so many settings they're not supporting, and so much of the D&D multiverse lying fallow, and they go with a setting from another game?! C'mon! 

I get the thought behind it. 
Magic the Gathering has a tonne of lore that never gets explored. This can do that. And there's a decent overlap between MtG and D&D fans, who will be excited by this book. And it might sell to MtG fans who don't play D&D, potentially getting them into D&D. 
But that last point is targeting a _potential_ audience over a _real_ audience. 

Man... and I thought I was disappointed by _Tales from the Yawming Portal_. 

I imagine that's also the thought behind releasing it in November. So D&D players who don't care about MtG or Ravnica (which I have to look up how to spell each and every time, as I've never written that word before) will at least have the Waterdeep duology.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 22, 2018)

My "MtG Lore" is pretty mediocre... but from what I do know about it, Ravnica sounds like a pretty good setting for a D&D game, probably the best of the bunch (that I know about!)


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## UngeheuerLich (Jul 22, 2018)

That could be one of the two settings. If the other is eberron. Taht would be nice.


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## Lidgar (Jul 22, 2018)

What happens when they announce this on Monday? 

Wait for it...Ravnirok.


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## OB1 (Jul 22, 2018)

Seems like a cool setting but it seems weird that this would be the first step out of the Realms.  I mean, it makes a ton of sense from the corporate Hasbro side of things, getting the most out of their IP, and trying to bring over fans of one game into another to increase the player base.  

This could have been the result of a corporate mandate to release a cross over title this year, with budget attached to it for that specific purpose.  That would explain why there is no Elminster's Guide to the Multiverse or something similar first to put releases like this into the context of the game as a whole.


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## darjr (Jul 22, 2018)

I have friends that have wanted this for a long time.


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## Sunseeker (Jul 22, 2018)

What!?  Wizards, a multi-million-dollar company is finally figuring out how to cross-promote their different product lines!?  IMPOSSIBLE!  What's next, MTG set in Faerun!?

Here's a hint: it's a tie-in to the fact that Ravnica is also getting a new expansion later this year: "Guilds of Ravnica".

As an MTG lover and D&D lover...not sure if I'm excited or not.


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## Lidgar (Jul 22, 2018)

Text from Amazon for the HC:

*Explore a worldwide cityscape filled to the brim with adventure and intrigue in this campaign setting for the world's greatest roleplaying game*

_A perpetual haze of dreary rain hangs over the spires of Ravnica. Bundled against the weather, the cosmopolitan citizens in all their fantastic diversity go about their daily business in bustling markets and shadowy back alleys. Through it all, ten guilds--crime syndicates, scientific institutions, church hierarchies, military forces, judicial courts, buzzing swarms, and rampaging gangs--vie for power, wealth, and influence. These guilds are the foundation of power on Ravnica. They have existed for millennia, and each one has its own identity and civic function, its own diverse collection of races and creatures, and its own distinct subculture. Their history is a web of wars, intrigue, and political machinations as they have vied for control of the plane.

_And for the dice:

*Premium dice for the world's greatest roleplaying game
*_Heed Your Guild! Life in the big city isn't always easy. As tensions between the guilds run high, the streets of Ravnica have never been more perilous. A good set of dice may just save your hide._


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## darjr (Jul 22, 2018)

I think they’ve also tested the waters on the guild. I get that this won’t be everyone’s cup of tea, but I’m very happy they are spreading their wings.


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## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Following up on my own comment:


Jester David said:


> I imagine that's also the thought behind releasing it in November. So D&D players who don't care about MtG or Ravnica (which I have to look up how to spell each and every time, as I've never written that word before) will at least have the Waterdeep duology.



This also explains why it’s a fourth book, breaking from their pattern of three hardcovers a year. It’s a bonus. It’s not coming at the expense of a D&D book.


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## vpuigdoller (Jul 22, 2018)

Guildmaster might refer more to the Ravnica guild houses than the dms guild.


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## Staccat0 (Jul 22, 2018)

Honestly, I don’t care about MtG or it’s lore but a city the size of a planet is more interesting then 90% of the old settings IMO.

And honestly, my games pull heavily from Eastern Europe so there is probably some good stuff to steal.


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## ccs (Jul 22, 2018)

Morrus said:


> "D&D Guildmasters" might refer to the Dungeon Master's Guild, and the setting being opened up for use there by fans with this initial book providing the introductory framework.




Eh, maybe.   But I'll bet it's play on words/book titles referring to one of the main features of the Ravnica setting - namely those 10 guilds that're mentioned in the description. 

Let's see, which has a better ring to it (considering the setting)?
Dungeon Masters guide to Ravnica
   OR
Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica


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## Melkor (Jul 22, 2018)

First 5E book I have zero interest in, and will be the first I won't be buying.

Very disappointed.


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## machineelf (Jul 22, 2018)

Very disappointing indeed.


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## vpuigdoller (Jul 22, 2018)

I wasn’t expecting this, but very pumped about it.  Ravnica imo is the best MtG setting.  There is two published book trilogies set in that setting as well.


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## Storyteller Hero (Jul 22, 2018)

Ravnica might not be the only setting that will be officially announced this year so there's still hope for Planescape, Eberron, Spelljammer, etc.


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## Greatwyrm (Jul 22, 2018)

Didn't they say there were two settings they hadn't announced yet for this year?


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## Magus Darkwind (Jul 22, 2018)

Storyteller Hero said:


> Ravnica might not be the only setting that will be officially announced this year so there's still hope for Planescape, Eberron, Spelljammer, etc.




This is what I'm hoping for. I've heard rumors that it was stated in some official capacity (Twitter? Stream of Many Eyes? Can anyone confirm?) that two setting products would be introduced this year, and that classic D&D fans would be very happy. Planescape/Spelljammer in addition to Ravnica could fit that bill with crossover appeal.

EDIT:



Greatwyrm said:


> Didn't they say there were two settings they hadn't announced yet for this year?




I knew I wasn't crazy! Where was this said, though?


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## Matt S1 (Jul 22, 2018)

Hard pass.  Doesn't even look like D&D.


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## Ratskinner (Jul 22, 2018)

If true, that might be the first non-core book I buy for 5e. Ravnica was the first MtG world that I really liked the setting. It was bold for Magic, and I hope it is equally bold for D&D.


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## jmucchiello (Jul 22, 2018)

Staccat0 said:


> a city the size of a planet is more interesting



Star Wars' Coruscant has been around for awhile.

And at least in sci fi waste disposal, food and water distribution, etc can be hand waved away by science. A fantasy city that size is one in which magic is EVERYWHERE.


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## Bera (Jul 22, 2018)

Since it's a second city-type book, I imagine the mechanics laid out for the Waterdeep stuff will also work well with this new setting.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jul 22, 2018)

Based on the cover, anyone else think there might be a chance to see the Artificer class published here?


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## Satyrn (Jul 22, 2018)

jmucchiello said:


> Star Wars' Coruscant has been around for awhile.




Asimov's Trantor has been around even longer.  But yeah, I'm sure more people are familiar with Coruscant.


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## guachi (Jul 22, 2018)

Not interested. Even as someone who got in on Magic at its beginning I don't care a lick about any of its lore.


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## FoolishFrost (Jul 22, 2018)

Interesting...  I guess it's true.  Nobody wants anything new, they just want the same things rehashed over and over.

Simple truth is:  This is the first new setting for D&D for years, and the overall response is...  <looks over the posts> Horror and denial...  I'm not surprised, but it does make me a bit sad.  It's not like all the other settings don't have decades of RPG books and expansions out there on ebay just waiting for you to grab them all.  It's not even that much effort to shift them to 5th edition.  Or even pathfinder.  Or any other game system.

I mean, is ONE new setting book that horrible a thing?


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## Keyframe18 (Jul 22, 2018)

As one of the few MtG settings I'm both familiar with and like, this has me excited.


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## Staffan (Jul 22, 2018)

It certainly looks real. As far as I can tell, the picture is not an existing card, and I doubt they'd commission a piece like this for a fake-out (of course, it could also be intended for a card in the upcoming Ravnica re-return). And Ravnica seems like a cool place.

I just hope that's not the only thing they're announcing tomorrow, because they've been hinting pretty hard at old settings having some love to look forward to Real Soon Now.


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## HawaiiSteveO (Jul 22, 2018)

Looks ... interesting with reservations . Sure we’ll hear more about it in the weeks ahead .  4 months off annoying though .


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## Waterbizkit (Jul 22, 2018)

This could be cool, glad they're going to try something a bit different. The backlash and people whinging about them not updating other settings first will be worth a laugh too. I look forward to seeing how this all plays out.


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## jerryrice4949 (Jul 22, 2018)

Not my thing.  Maybe I am old but stream punk settings are just not something that interest me.  I applaud new ideas but this one is meh.


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## bedir than (Jul 22, 2018)

Matt S1 said:


> Hard pass.  Doesn't even look like D&D.




Neither did Eberron, until it did.


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## Staccat0 (Jul 22, 2018)

jmucchiello said:


> Star Wars' Coruscant has been around for awhile.
> 
> And at least in sci fi waste disposal, food and water distribution, etc can be hand waved away by science. A fantasy city that size is one in which magic is EVERYWHERE.




Yeah I’m not implying it’s a NEW idea. Just more interesting to me than many existing settings in regards to stuff I can steal from.


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## Sunseeker (Jul 22, 2018)

bedir than said:


> Neither did Eberron, until it did.




And what, _exactly_ is D&D anyway?

Is it hard medieval fantasy?  Is it gothic horror?  It is high-magic shenanigans?  Is it sy-fantasy?  D&D has covered _all_ of these things long before Ravnica, even the MTG set, was ever released.


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## mjsoctober (Jul 22, 2018)

TheFool1972 said:


> Interesting...  I guess it's true.  Nobody wants anything new, they just want the same things rehashed over and over.
> 
> Simple truth is:  This is the first new setting for D&D for years, and the overall response is...  <looks over the posts> Horror and denial...  I'm not surprised, but it does make me a bit sad.  It's not like all the other settings don't have decades of RPG books and expansions out there on ebay just waiting for you to grab them all.  It's not even that much effort to shift them to 5th edition.  Or even pathfinder.  Or any other game system.
> 
> I mean, is ONE new setting book that horrible a thing?




It's not that we don't want something new, it's that we don't want MtG in our D&D.

And technically it's _not_ a new setting, since it already exists in MtG, it's just "new" to D&D.

How about something actually new and original?


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jul 22, 2018)

Magic: the Gathering has got a background and lore too rich but the planerwarlkers have got a special game mechanic can't be adapted to d20 system, or can they? The guilds of Ravnica are too linked to the colors of mana to use a standard d20 magic.

I remember when I published in April's 1st about a crossover among Kaladesh and Transformers. X-DD

If the worlds of M:tG become canon in D&D, then will we see a mash-up, a fusion or amalgam among Ravenloft and Innistrad?


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## Winterthorn (Jul 22, 2018)

Well *that's* a surprise!  I figured if WotC was going to do a setting book they would do Dominaria which has a lot of history/lore and they recently returned to it with a nice card set (block).  However Ravnica was, and still is, a favourite plane for this amateur MTG player, so this is a pleasant surprise for me.  I too anticipate the Artificer will show up as a class as it fits the ongoing lore in MTG.

Truly an intersting development IMO.  Now WotC needs to be careful to avoid fracturing the D&D fan base - a new setting for D&D is always a gamble, and plenty people still express interest in updates to older D&D IP.

Not everyone likes chocolate with their peanut butter, but I do, .


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## Vicente (Jul 22, 2018)

This is great news. MtG has a ton of great lore, so I'm very excited about this product (and more excited if this means at some point we get Zendikar or Dominaria ).


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## Alikar (Jul 22, 2018)

I love this! Its super nice to see Wizards:

1. Not release another FR related product.
2. Visit a world that has never had a campaign book before.
3. Not be Dark Sun or Eberron or Greyhawk. There are plenty of recent books on these settings that are still usable.

I would have loved to see something completely new, but if they are going to use MTG at least they chose one of the best planes.


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## MechaPilot (Jul 22, 2018)

Ravnica was my favorite block of MtG cards.  I just really loved the Orzov, the Golgari and the Dimir.  This is really the only MtG/D&D crossover I care about, but I'm not 100% sold on the book, especially if it's as sparse as the other MtG D&D PDFs have been.

Combine this with the $50 adventure that only takes characters to level 5 (Dragon Heist says on the WotC products page that it's an adventure for lvls 1-5.  That's $10 per level, and the first three levels of play are really short in 5e.) and I'm not terribly impressed by what's been announced for release this year.

I'll definitely give the products a proper once-over when they arrive at my local hobby shop, but the only one I'm currently thinking I might buy is the 5-20 adventure.  Maybe.  It depends on how interwoven it is with Waterdeep.  I don't play in FR.


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## The-Magic-Sword (Jul 22, 2018)

MechaPilot said:


> Ravnica was my favorite block of MtG cards.  I just really loved the Orzov, the Golgari and the Dimir.  This is really the only MtG/D&D crossover I care about, but I'm not 100% sold on the book, especially if it's as sparse as the other MtG D&D PDFs have been.
> 
> Combine this with the $50 adventure that only takes characters to level 5 (Dragon Heist says on the WotC products page that it's an adventure for lvls 1-5.  That's $10 per level, and the first three levels of play are really short in 5e.) and I'm not terribly impressed by what's been announced for release this year.
> 
> I'll definitely give the products a proper once-over when they arrive at my local hobby shop, but the only one I'm currently thinking I might buy is the 5-20 adventure.  Maybe.  It depends on how interwoven it is with Waterdeep.  I don't play in FR.




I mean, it's not like a single level in DND actually has a set length of time, it's entirely possible that there's an immense amount of low level content in that book where you can play at low level for months with interesting and engaging content. It's not really $ per level that matters, more like $ per session, and even that's kind of dubious. I would be very surprised if that adventure doesn't use milestones to focus in on 1-5 with an experience that would take a normal amount of time for a hardcover.

In fact with the companion book being what it is, I wouldn't be surprised if it had decelerated leveling 1-5, and then accelerated leveling to get players to 10+ or 15+ in the early part of undermountain.


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## robus (Jul 22, 2018)

So the streams are finally, officially, being crossed?! I’ve been saying it makes sense for a long time. Interesting times ahead!


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## madrivi (Jul 22, 2018)

If so, I don't think i will buy it, zero interest.


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## robus (Jul 22, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> My "MtG Lore" is pretty mediocre... but from what I do know about it, Ravnica sounds like a pretty good setting for a D&D game, probably the best of the bunch (that I know about!)




I think someone started noticing that there was duplicated effort going on: Ravenloft - Innistrad, Chult - Ixalan, Dominaria - Forgotten Realms. It’s time to put the wood behind one arrow. New Magic plane, new D&D campaign setting. It makes a lot of sense and lets D&D remain evergreen rather than mired in the past.

I know it will make many folks unhappy, but sometimes you have to let the past go in order to thrive in the future.


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## neogod22 (Jul 22, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> If this is Monday's announcement instead of Eberron, Planescape, or any other actual D&D setting, I'm gonna be mad. I'll probably still buy it, but I'll be mad.



I guess you're mad, cuz it's real.


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## Mercule (Jul 22, 2018)

So torn. It's not the Realms, which is awesome. But, it's Mtg, which is something I've actively avoided for about 20 years, after a brief flirtation.

I'd say I'm mostly disappointed, but I think some of that is my interest in Eberron, some is disinterest in Magic, and some is that the hype was explicit in this not being a new setting. Well, this is a new setting for D&D.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 22, 2018)

Don't know mush about the setting, but I love the magitech illustration.

I am definitely up for this!


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## FitzTheRuke (Jul 22, 2018)

This sounds like a great idea to me. A new D&D setting is an exciting thing, and they've already done a lot of the work to make this setting interesting, different, and have a lot of art assets for it. It just makes sense.

They'd better make some announcements on their plans to do some material for the other settings too, though...


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## vecna00 (Jul 22, 2018)

Mercule said:


> So torn. It's not the Realms, which is awesome. But, it's Mtg, which is something I've actively avoided for about 20 years, after a brief flirtation.
> 
> I'd say I'm mostly disappointed, but I think some of that is my interest in Eberron, some is disinterest in Magic, and some is that the hype was explicit in this not being a new setting. Well, this is a new setting for D&D.




That last part is me right now. I know some will argue that it's not "new" because it's existed in Magic, but it is new for D&D heads. I don't hate this, but it's not what I prefer. I may well warm up to it leading up to release, but I want to be mad for a week or so!


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## Remathilis (Jul 22, 2018)

neogod22 said:


> I guess you're mad, cuz it's real.



I get it's real. I'm still holding out hope we get a second announcement about an actual D&D setting as well. I'm still banking on a UA about Eberron that will coincidence with a 2019 book. 

I'll be mad if this is the ONLY setting we're getting after the hints and build up.


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## SuperTD (Jul 22, 2018)

It's interesting comparing the reactions here and the  DND Next Reddit thread  where most dislike the idea to the  Magic Reddit thread  where the idea is very popular. It's easy to get caught up in a community and assume that if most in that community don't like it, the clearly the world at large doesn't either.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 22, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> I get it's real. I'm still holding out hope we get a second announcement about an actual D&D setting as well. I'm still banking on a UA about Eberron that will coincidence with a 2019 book.
> 
> I'll be mad if this is the ONLY setting we're getting after the hints and build up.




Lots of mad people was always inevitable, whatever the announcement.

This looks way better than Eberron to me.


('cos I don't like Eberron very much, an I am bored with FR)


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## Mercurius (Jul 22, 2018)

WotC actually publishing a new (to D&D) setting rather than re-hashing the same old stuff again and again? I'd say that's great news.

I'm sure we'll still get some kind of Planescape/Spelljammer offering, and at least DM's Guild access to other settings, especially Dark Sun and Eberron....all settings
which have been meticulously covered already.

So why the disappointment? I love the fact that WotC is being bold and branching out.


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## Demetrios1453 (Jul 22, 2018)

So, this clears up two mysteries that have been hanging over us recently. 

One: this is the legendary "fourth book" long rumored and hinted at.

Two, the fact that they would be announcing information on *"a couple"* of settings tomorrow; so, at least two (maybe more, but that is probably unlikely). They were obviously aware of the potential consumer resistance to a M:tG setting, so they are going to also announce at least one more setting tomorrow to offset that resistance. All the upset posts I'm seeing here and on reddit are the result of people completely forgetting that more than this is presumably going to be announced tomorrow. I'm betting that they are going to also announce an established setting book to be released in early 2019

*tl;dr: Remember that we're getting news on at least two settings tomorrow, so if you're disappointed in this, there will still be other setting news!*


----------



## robus (Jul 22, 2018)

MechaPilot said:


> Ravnica was my favorite block of MtG cards.  I just really loved the Orzov, the Golgari and the Dimir.  This is really the only MtG/D&D crossover I care about, but I'm not 100% sold on the book, especially if it's as sparse as the other MtG D&D PDFs have been.
> 
> Combine this with the $50 adventure that only takes characters to level 5 (Dragon Heist says on the WotC products page that it's an adventure for lvls 1-5.  That's $10 per level, and the first three levels of play are really short in 5e.) and I'm not terribly impressed by what's been announced for release this year.
> 
> I'll definitely give the products a proper once-over when they arrive at my local hobby shop, but the only one I'm currently thinking I might buy is the 5-20 adventure.  Maybe.  It depends on how interwoven it is with Waterdeep.  I don't play in FR.




Dragon heist should have been a new starter set IMHO, but i imagine it’s also a setting book for Waterdeep, so there’s that i guess... and yeah i’m not thrilled with FR, so WotC starting to freshen up D&D settings is exciting to me.


----------



## Mercurius (Jul 22, 2018)

It is also an interesting, even savvy, business move in that they might be trying to draw in some of the MtG players to D&D - if only to buy the book, but also hopefully to get into the game itself.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 22, 2018)

Just to recap what I remember from various tweets and streams and such:

Two new settings coming this year. Is this new, as in not the Realms? Or totally new to D&D? Or one of each?
At least one aimed at the hardcore D&D fans.
This month's Unearthed Arcana article delayed til tomorrow (July 23).
Mearls making comments about working on a super secret project that he was not allowed to give any hints about.
Talk of being able to use these new settings quickly after the announcement, probably tied to the delayed UA. Or maybe separate PDF releases.

Anything else?

Edit: also, like many other players, I would be happy with a totally new setting for D&D, rather than just a rehash of some other tired, older setting.


----------



## Schmoe (Jul 22, 2018)

While a revamp of another classic setting would be really nice, I have to admit that this looks really cool.  Ravnica looks like a compelling and, more importantly, distinctly different setting to add to the stable of D&D settings.  While I haven't been playing 5e, I _might_ actually pick this up to go along with my BECMI Known Realms books, my 1e Greyhawk books, my 2e Planescape+FR+Ravenloft+Spelljammer setting books, and my 3e Eberron and FR setting books.  The more I think about it, the more I like that this is something fresh and new.

Also, of course, I'm looking forward to the second setting announcement tomorrow.


----------



## Dualazi (Jul 22, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> WotC actually publishing a new (to D&D) setting rather than re-hashing the same old stuff again and again? I'd say that's great news.
> 
> I'm sure we'll still get some kind of Planescape/Spelljammer offering, and at least DM's Guild access to other settings, especially Dark Sun and Eberron....all settings
> which have been meticulously covered already.
> ...




It's disappointing because it IS a rehash, just from one of their sister franchises. It's a cynical corporate move to try and cross-pollinate their fanbases. This is the opposite of branching out, while simultaneously making no (known) progress on any of the more classic settings. Overall quite disappointed from this announcement.


----------



## DQDesign (Jul 22, 2018)

I will buy it if the setting will be opened on DMsGuild for independent development, as for FR and Ravenloft.


----------



## Patrick McGill (Jul 22, 2018)

Out of context, Ravnica as a D&D setting is a very very good move. It's one of the most popular (if not THE most popular) Magic settings and it is so distinct from Faerun that it should hold some interest to D&D non-magic players.

In context, after the build up, if it is the only announcement, it's just not going to go over too well. 5e has utilized nostalgia to really good effect, but Wizards are going to pay for that with resistance to new ideas and settings if they don't try to also appease the nostalgia they've cultivated.

My bet, however, based on earlier statements is that they will indeed have a couple of announcements tomorrow and their whole plan was to have a classic setting as well as a new experimental one announced at the same time in order to keep both the nostalgia gamers happy and to appeal to the magic demographic (a very very very-very-very-very-very large demographic.)

This is why I passionately hate leaks like this, it completely removes the context a developer has tried to create for the release and information sharing on their products. Controlling that context is key to marketing, and crap like this ruins it. If I were WotC I would be pretty pissed off about these showing up on Amazon right now.


----------



## SkidAce (Jul 22, 2018)

Sunseeker said:


> As an MTG lover and D&D lover...not sure if I'm excited or not.




I am excited.


----------



## Mercurius (Jul 22, 2018)

My guess is that they're going to announce Ravnica (obviously) and some kind of Planescape/Spelljammer hybrid book coming out some time early next year, which will also offer more info on other prime material planes--other D&D worlds--than previous Manual of the Planes books.

I also don't think we'll see a 5e Eberron book from WotC, but that it will either be opened up to DM's Guild or licensed to a 3PP under Keith Baker's oversight. This might be true of Dark Sun as well, but do think we're more likely to see at least a story arc.

So my guess is that the next five or so books, in some particular order, will be:
*Ravnica setting book
*Ravnica book of adventures ("Ravnican Yawning Portal")
*Planescape/Spelljammer book
*Planescape/Spelljammer story arc - something involving the githyanki
*Dark Sun story arc that includes psionics and setting info


----------



## SkidAce (Jul 22, 2018)

TheFool1972 said:


> Interesting...  I guess it's true.  Nobody wants anything new, they just want the same things rehashed over and over.
> 
> Simple truth is:  This is the first new setting for D&D for years, and the overall response is...  <looks over the posts> Horror and denial...  I'm not surprised, but it does make me a bit sad.  It's not like all the other settings don't have decades of RPG books and expansions out there on ebay just waiting for you to grab them all.  It's not even that much effort to shift them to 5th edition.  Or even pathfinder.  Or any other game system.
> 
> I mean, is ONE new setting book that horrible a thing?




I am surprised by the negativity.  My initial reaction was "cool", and then when I started reading the thread I was caught totally off guard.

I guess all the people who have been asking for new settings haven't woken up yet.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jul 22, 2018)

Do you imagine the d20 version of mana planewalker power? I guess something like the 3.5 incarnum game mechanic, with points of essentia and the chakras (body slots for magic item), for example three points of mana/essentia for the chakra red or green. 

Other option is a M:tG multiverse in D&D but without planewalkers or out-of-screen.


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## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> I get it's real. I'm still holding out hope we get a second announcement about an actual D&D setting as well. I'm still banking on a UA about Eberron that will coincidence with a 2019 book.
> 
> I'll be mad if this is the ONLY setting we're getting after the hints and build up.



Agreed. I'm hoping we get *something* in the Guild that isn't just "fans can do Eberron now."



Paul Farquhar said:


> Lots of mad people was always inevitable, whatever the announcement.



There's going to be disappointed people, yes. But people are more upset because we'd spent a month wondering what the announcement would be and staff at WotC spent much of that time teasing up with the possibility it might be something classic.

Had this come out of nowhere, people would be surprised and no one would be disappointed.
Had they instead said "something is coming, and you will be surprised as it's not what you think..." people might be surprised and fewer people would be disappointed. 

But, instead, they trolled us. They got people's hopes up. Which has moved some people from unimpressed to pissed off.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 22, 2018)

Mercule said:


> So torn. It's not the Realms, which is awesome. But, it's Mtg, which is something I've actively avoided for about 20 years, after a brief flirtation.
> 
> I'd say I'm mostly disappointed, but I think some of that is my interest in Eberron, some is disinterest in Magic, and some is that the hype was explicit in this not being a new setting. Well, this is a new setting for D&D.




I too played a bit with MtG and concluded that this was not the game for me... and I still think that Ravnika could be a very good D&D setting.  So don't let your dislike of MtG color your impressions.   There is a lot of potential there. 

What I wonder is how much they will adapt D&D to fit the lore of Ravnika - or vice versa.


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## BMaC (Jul 22, 2018)

I heard the hardback is going to come with a special MtG card pack inside the back cover!
/s


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## Remathilis (Jul 22, 2018)

So I looked back at what Nathan Stewart said on comicbook.com ...

"Next month we're going to talk about *a couple of different settings* that people can start playing *as early as this year*," Stewart said.


These new publications won't be full-blown storylines, but rather *an introduction to different worlds set inside the D&D multiverse*. t."


Stewart declined to say which campaign settings D&D would be revisiting this year, but he did note that the books woul*d please "hardcore fans" of the franchise.* 


Dungeons & Dragons plans to start talking about the new product as early as next month. "We have *two surprises that I think hardcore D&D fans are really going to love coming this summer*," Stewart said. "*And then I think we got one surprise that's going to release later this year* that we've not told anyone about. We're going to announce it in July."

Nathan seems to be implying there are two surprises for "hardcore D&D fans" (and believe me, Ravnica isn't going to please hardcore fans of D&D's franchise the way Stewart is talking) and the last sentence implies as third surprise coming "this year" which sounds like Ravnica to me. In addition, Stewart was the one who tweeted the dice-pic with the Eberron Campaign Setting cover in the background. Top it off with the fact that July's Unearthed Arcana was pushed back to 7/23 (same as the announcement) and I wager that tomorrow, we get an announcement of three settings: Eberron (with a UA of races and other mechanics to playtest until the proper book in 2019 comes out), Ravnica (the third mystery product Stewart mentioned and the fourth D&D book also hinted at) and a third product also setting-related (either Planescape, Spelljammer, another prime setting, or a planar-themed module).


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## Mercurius (Jul 22, 2018)

Dualazi said:


> It's disappointing because it IS a rehash, just from one of their sister franchises. It's a cynical corporate move to try and cross-pollinate their fanbases. This is the opposite of branching out, while simultaneously making no (known) progress on any of the more classic settings. Overall quite disappointed from this announcement.




I'd say your interpretation is what is cynical. I don't see it as cynical that they're wanting to connect their franchises. And this isn't a rehash for the vast majority of D&D players. Is there a Ravnica setting book for MtG? Has it been detailed, mapped, fleshed out?


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## Ancalagon (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Agreed. I'm hoping we get *something* in the Guild that isn't just "fans can do Eberron now."
> 
> 
> There's going to be disappointed people, yes. But people are more upset because we'd spent a month wondering what the announcement would be and staff at WotC spent much of that time teasing up with the possibility it might be something classic.
> ...




Do not be too eager to get upset.  There is still another setting, and that is the classic one (edit: probably).  This leak is not the whole story.  Let's wait and see


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Agreed. I'm hoping we get *something* in the Guild that isn't just "fans can do Eberron now."
> 
> 
> There's going to be disappointed people, yes. But people are more upset because we'd spent a month wondering what the announcement would be and staff at WotC spent much of that time teasing up with the possibility it might be something classic.
> ...



How have they trolled us? This leak was presumably unintentional, and we know from previous statements that we'll be seeing news on more than one setting tomorrow. So, presumably, all the classic setting teasers they've been doing will pertain to the second setting announcement tomorrow. Only if, against everything they've said so far, there isn't news on settings beyind this tomorrow, have they trolled us.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> My guess is that they're going to announce Ravnica (obviously) and some kind of Planescape/Spelljammer hybrid book coming out some time early next year, which will also offer more info on other prime material planes--other D&D worlds--than previous Manual of the Planes books.
> 
> I also don't think we'll see a 5e Eberron book from WotC, but that it will either be opened up to DM's Guild or licensed to a 3PP under Keith Baker's oversight. This might be true of Dark Sun as well, but do think we're more likely to see at least a story arc.
> 
> ...




I doubt they'll do a second campaign setting so soon, let alone devote much resources into this setting until they know it's a success. That'd be a huge gamble.

Really, this means we're unlikely to see a second campaign setting book for the next couple years, until they know if this was was successful or not _and_ they feel a new book won't compete directly with this one for sales. 
Plus, that they went with this setting over the others really speaks to the staff's decision not to release books they've already done. They purposely chose not to release a classic setting rather than test the markets for a setting book with a known popular world. 

This is likely IT for published settings for 5e. This is what we're getting. 



SkidAce said:


> I am surprised by the negativity.  My initial reaction was "cool", and then when I started reading the thread I was caught totally off guard.
> 
> I guess all the people who have been asking for new settings haven't woken up yet.



Or, unsurprisingly, they were a minority of the fanbase. 

Most D&D games are set in homebrew worlds. The largest minority of players who uses published settings go with the Realms, likely because that's the default of the adventures. A published campaign setting was always going to appeal to a smaller minority of players, especially a new one without established fans.
I guess WotC is hoping that MtG fans will offset the reduced sales to D&D players.


----------



## Zarithar (Jul 22, 2018)

I'm intrigued and have been waiting for an MtG/D&D crossover for years (even though I no longer play MtG).


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## Mercurius (Jul 22, 2018)

Based on the Nathan Stewart quotes that [MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION] posted, it sounds like we're going to see *three* setting products (of some kind) this year, two that "hardcore fans" like, and then the "surprise" Ravnica later this year.

What is interesting is that he says they'll be playable this year, and something about this summer. That means that we'll either see a surprise book(s) at GenCon or some kind of PDFs, with a book(s) early next year, like I previously speculated.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 22, 2018)

Just looking around a bit more and if they are going to make this a live announcement and not just drop the info on their website/Facebook/Twitter, Monday is when they air the Dragon Talk podcast at 2pm Pacific time and that show has the Lore You Should Know segment. That sounds as likely a time as any for the announcement tomorrow.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> How have they trolled us? This leak was presumably unintentional, and we know from previous statements that we'll be seeing news on more than one setting tomorrow. So, presumably, all the classic setting teasers they've been doing will pertain to the second setting announcement tomorrow. Only if, against everything they've said so far, there isn't news on settings beyind this tomorrow, have they trolled us.



We're _*hoping*_ there's more announcements tomorrow. There _*might*_ be more tomorrow. 
But there just as easily could not be. 
It could just as easily be "and the fans can do stuff for Eberron and Planescape on the Guild!" 

Nathan Stewart repeatedly poked the fans with cryptic pictures that teased Spelljammer and Eberron. The interviews given suggested classical settings. 
And so far we have this. 

Had they not teased and hyped the reveal and said what they did during the interviews, this would have just been a surprise instead of a let down for so many fans.


----------



## Yaarel (Jul 22, 2018)

Mercule said:


> So torn. It's not the Realms, which is awesome. But, it's Mtg, which is something I've actively avoided for about 20 years, after a brief flirtation.
> 
> I'd say I'm mostly disappointed, but I think some of that is my interest in Eberron, some is disinterest in Magic, and some is that the hype was explicit in this not being a new setting. Well, this is a new setting for D&D.




I know little about M:tG lore. But ... urban? multicultural? tech? quasi-modern? fantasy? That can appeal to me.

I am also a fan of Eberron but expect it to show up later, after psionics.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> Do not be too eager to get upset.  There is still another setting, and that is the classic one (edit: probably).  This leak is not the whole story.  Let's wait and see




There's no way they're doing a _fifth_ hardcover this year, let alone three books in a single month. Anything else is going to be small PDFs, likely adventures, or a half-tested Unearthed Arcana.


----------



## Mercurius (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I doubt they'll do a second campaign setting so soon, let alone devote much resources into this setting until they know it's a success. That'd be a huge gamble.
> 
> Really, this means we're unlikely to see a second campaign setting book for the next couple years, until they know if this was was successful or not _and_ they feel a new book won't compete directly with this one for sales.
> Plus, that they went with this setting over the others really speaks to the staff's decision not to release books they've already done. They purposely chose not to release a classic setting rather than test the markets for a setting book with a known popular world.
> ...




I don't get this interpretation at all.

Re-read the Nathan Stewart quotes that Remathilis posted. Stewart clearly says that there will be two settings that will please hardcore fans--so, "classics"--and a surprise later this year.

That's three settings that WotC is going to support in some form or fashion.

Now what does that mean? That's what we don't know. All we know is we're getting a Ravnica book and _something_ for two (probably classic) settings that will (allegedly) please hardcore fans. That something could be anything from:
*Opened up to DM's Guild
*3PP licensing
*PDF primers/gazetteers
*Unearthed Arcana articles
*Actual hardcover books

Or probably some combination of the above.


----------



## Yaarel (Jul 22, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> I get it's real. I'm still holding out hope we get a second announcement about an actual D&D setting as well. I'm still banking on a UA about Eberron that will coincidence with a 2019 book.
> 
> I'll be mad if this is the ONLY setting we're getting after the hints and build up.




I expect you will also see a classic D&D setting. Some of the hints implied *grognards* would be happy. While I am curious about Ravnica, I doubt it qualifies as mr. grognard service.


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 22, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> I get it's real. I'm still holding out hope we get a second announcement about an actual D&D setting as well. I'm still banking on a UA about Eberron that will coincidence with a 2019 book.
> 
> I'll be mad if this is the ONLY setting we're getting after the hints and build up.



What happens in 2019 is still unknown.  But everything for 2018 has now been announced.


----------



## SkidAce (Jul 22, 2018)

Dualazi said:


> ... It's a cynical corporate move to try and cross-pollinate their fanbases...




"Or" its partially fulfilling requests for MtG D&D that have been asked for since WotC took over D&D?


----------



## Sunseeker (Jul 22, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> I am excited.




I'd be more excited if this meant WotC was going to re-start writing novels to accompany their MTG sets.  The sets have lost substantial flavor since they stopped.  Granted the books weren't profitable in the sligtest, or really that good.  But I still have my original Ravnica block books.  They really add something that's missing these days.

Maybe this will fill that spot as well.  

Or maybe this will just cause Jace the magical white saviour of the universe to contaminate D&D as well.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 22, 2018)

I am really interested to see if/how they do a robust adaptation of MtG's five-color system to D&D. Because that could be a lot of work. But if they don't do it, like they didn't for the little PDFs they've been doing, would it _really_ be the same setting as in MtG?

(And thinking pessimistically, Ravnica might not be the best setting to introduce the five colors to D&D, because a city-plane has very... idiosyncratic definitions of "plains", "islands", "swamps", "mountains", and "forests".)


----------



## Erdric Dragin (Jul 22, 2018)

People actually care for MtG in D&D enough for WotC to spend their precious, extremely limited hardcover lineup space for it? Since when has this been a thing? 

I agree with an earlier poster. It's a placeholder for a "Sigil: City of Doors" campaign, bringing Planescape back to D&D.


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 22, 2018)

SuperTD said:


> It's interesting comparing the reactions here and the  DND Next Reddit thread  where most dislike the idea to the  Magic Reddit thread  where the idea is very popular. It's easy to get caught up in a community and assume that if most in that community don't like it, the clearly the world at large doesn't either.



I believe this is what they were going with.   To get the Magic people to cross over to D&D.  What I hope is they support the product and not just say "here's the book, this is all you get."


----------



## Sunseeker (Jul 22, 2018)

Dualazi said:


> It's disappointing because it IS a rehash, just from one of their sister franchises. It's a cynical corporate move to try and cross-pollinate their fanbases. This is the opposite of branching out, while simultaneously making no (known) progress on any of the more classic settings. Overall quite disappointed from this announcement.




And the problem with getting MTG players into D&D, and D&D players into MTG is..._what_ exactly?


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 22, 2018)

jerryrice4949 said:


> Not my thing.  Maybe I am old but stream punk settings are just not something that interest me.  I applaud new ideas but this one is meh.



Don't judge a book by its cover. Ravnica isn't steampunk on the whole. The Izzet guild is, but then, so are Dragonlance's tinker gnomes.


----------



## vecna00 (Jul 22, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> So I looked back at what Nathan Stewart said on comicbook.com ...
> 
> "Next month we're going to talk about *a couple of different settings* that people can start playing *as early as this year*," Stewart said.
> 
> ...




I can get behind this.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> I don't get this interpretation at all.
> 
> Re-read the Nathan Stewart quotes that Remathilis posted. Stewart clearly says that there will be two settings that will please hardcore fans--so, "classics"--and a surprise later this year.
> 
> ...




They've also referenced _Curse of Strahd_ as the model. 
So at _most_ I'm expecting a 30-page PDF that is mostly an introductory adventure with very limited new crunch, followed by opening up the DMsGuild and letting the fans do it. At very likely just the latter with the Guild and fans doing the work.
Which is okay, but hasn't exactly resulted in a whole lot of support for the setting or really introduced the setting to new fans as the vast, vast majority of D&D players don't visit the Guild.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 22, 2018)

Erdric Dragin said:


> People actually care for MtG in D&D enough for WotC to spend their precious, extremely limited hardcover lineup space for it? Since when has this been a thing?



Do you have _any_ idea how many Magic players there are, or how much money they are demonstrably willing to spend on fantasy gaming product?



Erdric Dragin said:


> I agree with an earlier poster. It's a placeholder for a "Sigil: City of Doors" campaign, bringing Planescape back to D&D.



If I were a betting man, I would put down quite a lot of money that this is _not_ secretly Sigil. Putting up a Ravnica setting as a placeholder for a Sigil setting would be like Disney announcing a new Star Wars movie as a placeholder for a new Black Hole movie.


----------



## Sunseeker (Jul 22, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> I am really interested to see if/how they do a robust adaptation of MtG's five-color system to D&D. Because that could be a lot of work. But if they don't do it, like they didn't for the little PDFs they've been doing, would it _really_ be the same setting as in MtG?
> 
> (And thinking pessimistically, Ravnica might not be the best setting to introduce the five colors to D&D, because a city-plane has very... idiosyncratic definitions of "plains", "islands", "swamps", "mountains", and "forests".)




Yeah but you're not really using "plains" to cast spells.  Plains just represent sources from which white mana is often found.  Ravnica associates mana more closely to ideals, life and duty are white, death and corruption are black, aggression and violence are red, growth and nature are green, science and knowledge are blue.  Which is probably closer to how D&D spells have been tagged with [Fire], [Chaos], [Evil] and so forth in the past.

Disconnecting "mana" from "lands" is probably a better move towards implementing a mana-points-based system for D&D spellcasting.


----------



## SkidAce (Jul 22, 2018)

BLUF (for me)

I like it.  I liked the planeshift articles.

I played D&D from the beginning, and I've played MtG from the beginning.  Heck, I even own the Primal Order, a d&d compatible supplement from WotC from BEFORE MtG.


---------------------

I will be spending tomorrow evening doing two things.

A. checking and reading for updated announcments (hoping for Dark Sun or Ebberron, I need psionics).

B.  re-reading this thread to chuckle at all the gloom and doom that may not be warranted in hindsight.


----------



## HawaiiSteveO (Jul 22, 2018)

I was waiting until tomorrow to decide what my new campaign is going to be.

Option 1 Adventures in Middle Earth , love the different flavour.

Option 2 Dragon Heist city adventure nice change after finishing ToA.

Option 3 was waiting to see what new stuff was.

CHOICES man this is sweet  and I have to pick something. Was reading Ravnica is city that covers whole planet? Sounds like Waterdeep Plus!!

looking forward to full info tomorrow !


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## SkidAce (Jul 22, 2018)

Sunseeker said:


> Or maybe this will just cause Jace the magical *white* saviour of the universe to contaminate D&D as well.




blue....but I hear yah!


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> There's no way they're doing a _fifth_ hardcover this year, let alone three books in a single month. Anything else is going to be small PDFs, likely adventures, or a half-tested Unearthed Arcana.



I agree - presumably any other setting book would be next year, hopefully in the first half (which during that span this year there was a dearth of books). Would it being released early next year be that much of a disappointment? I know I have enough to spend on D&D this year, even without this book...


----------



## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Sunseeker said:


> And the problem with getting MTG players into D&D, and D&D players into MTG is..._what_ exactly?



On paper, nothing.

In practice, it's marketing to a theoretical audience. It's releasing a product not for your actual fans, but fans who _might_ exist. 
The book is gambling that MtG fans want this book and will be swayed by it buy said book and then play D&D. 

It also assumes that large numbers of MtG fans are somehow unaware of D&D. Which seems unlikely. And that they will have both the free time and money to invest in D&D over MtG. 
More likely the money for this book will have to come at the expense of MtG cards as the player chooses which to spend their disposable income on OR will not play D&D because they're spending their limited free time playing MtG.


----------



## Kite474 (Jul 22, 2018)

Holy freaking crap this is the best news ever!!!! I have always hoped of doing an MTG D&D campagin and this thing is the perfect ticket.

Man this is gonna be awesome! Ravnicas an amazing setting with so much cool stuff. 

Aaaaaaaaaaah this is so awesome!


----------



## Sunseeker (Jul 22, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> blue....but I hear yah!




Gideon gets some of my ire here too.


----------



## Emirikol Prime (Jul 22, 2018)

Fantastic news.  I for one am tired of them rehashing the same materials over and over.   You can buy the old settings very easily now and 5E is easy to convert to.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I agree - presumably any other setting book would be next year, hopefully in the first half (which during that span this year there was a dearth of books). Would it being released early next year be that much of a disappointment? I know I have enough to spend on D&D this year, even without this book...




As I said above, it seems super unlikely they'll releasing setting books back-to-back. First, because they don't want the two books competing for new player's attentions. And second, because they don't know if they first setting will be a success or demonstrate a market. They'll want to see sales first.
Good odds, we won't see another hardcover setting book before 2020 or 2021. If ever. 

Very likely, this is the sole hardcover setting book we will get for 5e.


----------



## Kite474 (Jul 22, 2018)

Sunseeker said:


> Gideon gets some of my ire here too.




Aw but Chads so fun to be with


----------



## Sunseeker (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> On paper, nothing.
> 
> In practice, it's marketing to a theoretical audience. It's releasing a product not for your actual fans, but fans who _might_ exist.
> The book is gambling that MtG fans want this book and will be swayed by it buy said book and then play D&D.
> ...




It's not theoretical.  Anecdotal but...I know numerous MTG players and D&D players who have started with one and gone to the other.  Surprisingly, we are quite capable of managing two or more hobbies.

Also, your issue is with marketing in general.  You always want NEW people buying your product.  Because if for no other reason, OLD people die.  If you always cater to the same group, you're catering to an ever-shrinking group of people.  Products that don't draw in new players are produts that inevitably don't sell well and don't further your product line.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Very likely, this is the sole hardcover setting book we will get for 5e.




And your reasoning for that is...?


----------



## Mercurius (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> They've also referenced _Curse of Strahd_ as the model.
> So at _most_ I'm expecting a 30-page PDF that is mostly an introductory adventure with very limited new crunch, followed by opening up the DMsGuild and letting the fans do it. At very likely just the latter with the Guild and fans doing the work.
> Which is okay, but hasn't exactly resulted in a whole lot of support for the setting or really introduced the setting to new fans as the vast, vast majority of D&D players don't visit the Guild.




Yeah, I could see the 30-page PDFs this year - as in, this summer. But that doesn't mean they won't publish actual books next year, or that "this is it for 5e published settings."

I do think we'll see _at least_ a Spelljammer/Planescape book, and probably some kind of book for Dark Sun, maybe Eberron - a Curse of Strahd type book makes sense.

I would also assume that the Ravnica book has at least a starter adventure or two, as it seems counter-productive to publish a new setting and not offer ways to run games in it.


----------



## Remathilis (Jul 22, 2018)

neogod22 said:


> What happens in 2019 is still unknown.  But everything for 2018 has now been announced.




Everything in the form of hardcover books has been announced, but I still wager that there are alternative methods of distribution we don't know the full extent of.


----------



## machineelf (Jul 22, 2018)

mjsoctober said:


> It's not that we don't want something new, it's that we don't want MtG in our D&D.
> 
> And technically it's _not_ a new setting, since it already exists in MtG, it's just "new" to D&D.
> 
> How about something actually new and original?




This. I would have been happy with an actually new setting

Because this setting seems to be magepunk, I am now thinking Eberron is unlikely. Hopefully the other option is Dark Sun. I'd also be excited about a continuation of 5e Ravenloft.


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Jul 22, 2018)

I skipped 3e and 4e, and also have never played a single hand of M:tG, so I have no history or emotional connection/baggage with most of these settings.  I was around during the original Dragonlance (and boy am I glad we're not getting THAT one), and although I loved the original Ravenloft I never really cared for the demi-plane campaign setting that grew out of it. 

So given what I can glean about the premises of all these different settings...Eberron, Spelljammer, Planescape, etc...Ravnica sounds the most interesting to me.  I see this as good news.


----------



## AmerginLiath (Jul 22, 2018)

What immediately strikes me is the question of how this affects which other settings we can expect to see developed down the line in terms of the elements at play here. There’s been the debate over which established settings are too similar to FR (and thus would be unlikely to be developed); releasing a hardcover of this sort of world blocks out further ge re elements that one needs to consider “already in play” in the published multiverse (folks have been making the Sigil comparison for twelve pages, for example).


----------



## cbwjm (Jul 22, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> My "MtG Lore" is pretty mediocre... but from what I do know about it, Ravnica sounds like a pretty good setting for a D&D game, probably the best of the bunch (that I know about!)



Its definitely a cool setting. If this is what's going to be released then I am all for it. Many of the MtG settings are perfect for DnD, probably why the planeshift articles were well received.


----------



## thebakeriscomingforu (Jul 22, 2018)

Sometimes businesses seem to "double down" on their product releases. We've seen this to a degree with MTG and D&D products having thematic tones. This fall wizards is releasing a large City based adventure in two parts and a return to the MTG setting Ravnica. The setting announcements tomorrow may be two D&D products that would align with the Urban adventure(Sigil and Eberron come to mind) along with the "surprise" cross-over book of a D&D Ravnica source book. Whatever the announcements and the UA release is tomorrow I am interested.


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## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Grouping replies so I'm not spamming the thread with my negativity and snarkiness...



Sunseeker said:


> It's not theoretical.  Anecdotal but...I know numerous MTG players and D&D players who have started with one and gone to the other.  Surprisingly, we are quite capable of managing two or more hobbies.



Right. And they managed to do that without a dedicated product.



Sunseeker said:


> Also, your issue is with marketing in general.  You always want NEW people buying your product.  Because if for no other reason, OLD people die.  If you always cater to the same group, you're catering to an ever-shrinking group of people.  Products that don't draw in new players are produts that inevitably don't sell well and don't further your product line.



Yes, but you want to release products that appeal to both groups. Old players _and_ new players. You can't just try and appeal solely to new players and trust your old audience will keep buying the books.
(That was one of the weaknesses with 4e. They focused entirely on getting new people and just assumed the existing fans would keep buying.)

* * * 



Demetrios1453 said:


> And your reasoning for that is...?



They make and plan products two years in advance.

Right now, the spring 2019 product is probably written and in playtesting, and the other two are in planning with art being ordered. Especially for the key storyline that has to tie into the board games and video games, as work on that for those products has to start, well, right now. 
And the 2020 products have been outlined and likely planned. They're on a board somewhere. But probably subject to change if necessary. 

If they release this book and it craters, it's too late to really change their plans for Spring 2019. That book will have been done. If it's a similar book, that's going to hurt. 
AND even if Ravnica does well, they don't want to cut into its sales right away. The books for the next year will be different so they don't compete with it. 
Like how it took two years to have more class content between _Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide_ and _Guide to Everything_ and eighteen months for them to follow up on _Volo's Guide to Monsters_, with the _Tomb of Foes_ (and the only reason the latter wasn't a full two years was because they decided to move the spring adventure to the fall). 

So, the earliest we'll see a new hardcover setting book will likely be November 2020. 

But... that's even assuming they want to do another book that competes with Ravnica at all. Because you really don't need more than a couple settings, and between that and the Realms (and 3rd Party stuff), the fans are set. They know it takes a year to go through a full campaign, and you can have two or three campaigns easily in a setting like Ravnica. So they could _easily_ push it to 2021 or 2022 before considering a new campaign setting book. 

But, at that point, the edition has been out for eight years, and they're likely more focused on experimental stuff than updating classic setting.

* * * 



Mercurius said:


> Yeah, I could see the 30-page PDFs this year - as in, this summer. But that doesn't mean they won't publish actual books next year, or that "this is it for 5e published settings."
> 
> I do think we'll see _at least_ a Spelljammer/Planescape book, and probably some kind of book for Dark Sun, maybe Eberron - a Curse of Strahd type book makes sense.



See above for why I think that's unlikely for a while. 



Mercurius said:


> I would also assume that the Ravnica book has at least a starter adventure or two, as it seems counter-productive to publish a new setting and not offer ways to run games in it.



Given the shipping weight, this is likely going to be a pretty slender volume. Likely 160-pages or less. 
Maybe they'll leave the starter adventures for the Guild Adepts.


----------



## Tallifer (Jul 22, 2018)

TheFool1972 said:


> It's not like all the other settings don't have decades of RPG books and expansions out there on ebay just waiting for you to grab them all.  It's not even that much effort to shift them to 5th edition.  Or even pathfinder.  Or any other game system.




Forsooth. While I am not very interested in Ravnica, I see absolutely no need whatsoever for new 5E books on Greyhawk, Eberron, Dark Sun or Planescape. All the fluff is already out there in hundreds of published and readily available pages, and the crunch is easy to adjust on the fly. I have been running 5E Eberron since 2016 with nary a hitch, indeed nary a moment's hesitation.


----------



## jerryrice4949 (Jul 22, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Don't judge a book by its cover. Ravnica isn't steampunk on the whole. The Izzet guild is, but then, so are Dragonlance's tinker gnomes.




You make a goodpoint.  Though it seems strange to use that particular cover unless that level of technology is going to be a big part of the setting.


----------



## Langy (Jul 22, 2018)

Gotta admit, I don't like it. Ravnica shouldn't be the first non-Forgotten Realms setting in D&D 5e, and I really hope it's not going to be the *only* non-Faerun setting we see get a full treatment. If it turns out the announcement tomorrow is that they're publishing a full Ravnica setting book and opening Planescape up to the DM's Guild or something but not publishing an actual book for it, I'm not going to be pleased at all.


Yes, cross-promotion/corporate synergy is a good idea and all, but it's not like the Magic the Gathering lore actually matters (or, for the most part, exists). It'd be a lot easier to create a MtG pack based on D&D than the other way around if they wanted to cross-promote, so I'm not certain what their goal is here - though I wouldn't be surprised if the order for cross-promotion came from corporate.


----------



## robus (Jul 22, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> I am really interested to see if/how they do a robust adaptation of MtG's five-color system to D&D. Because that could be a lot of work. But if they don't do it, like they didn't for the little PDFs they've been doing, would it _really_ be the same setting as in MtG?
> 
> (And thinking pessimistically, Ravnica might not be the best setting to introduce the five colors to D&D, because a city-plane has very... idiosyncratic definitions of "plains", "islands", "swamps", "mountains", and "forests".)




Actually, that might make it the easiest to adapt. I think that the only thing that will transfer are the “worlds”, i.e. races and places. I think there will be two ways to play in those worlds, either as planeswalker or adventurer. But trying to connect the mechanics seems like a way to cause a fight rather than a shared enjoyment.


----------



## Kite474 (Jul 22, 2018)

jerryrice4949 said:


> You make a goodpoint.  Though it seems strange to use that particular cover unless that level of technology is going to be a big part of the setting.




Its mostly because the Izzet League is the most popular guild and they tend to be pretty photogenic cause dam if Lightning and Dragons arent cool and to fair that tech is sort of important for about 1/10th of the setting with the other 9/10ths being the other guilds


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 22, 2018)

jerryrice4949 said:


> You make a goodpoint.  Though it seems strange to use that particular cover unless that level of technology is going to be a big part of the setting.



I have been deeply unimpressed with WotC's choices of cover art throughout 5E. Why is the cover of the PHB a fire giant? But yeah, Ravnica's cover ought to be a sweeping cityscape glowing in the sunlight while Boros skyknights wheel overhead, or something like that.


----------



## MechaPilot (Jul 22, 2018)

The-Magic-Sword said:


> I mean, it's not like a single level in DND actually has a set length of time, it's entirely possible that there's an immense amount of low level content in that book where you can play at low level for months with interesting and engaging content. It's not really $ per level that matters, more like $ per session, and even that's kind of dubious. I would be very surprised if that adventure doesn't use milestones to focus in on 1-5 with an experience that would take a normal amount of time for a hardcover.
> 
> In fact with the companion book being what it is, I wouldn't be surprised if it had decelerated leveling 1-5, and then accelerated leveling to get players to 10+ or 15+ in the early part of undermountain.




A level doesn't have a set amount of time.  It does has a set amount of Xp.  That set amount of Xp is earned mostly through encounters, which are going to be spelled out in the adventure (and probably given as random encounters as well), and which can be roughly estimated as to how long they'll take and how many you can fit into a session.  If you know your group (as I do mine) it's also fairly easy to assess how quickly they'll go through the story and hit the encounters.  Put those estimates together and you can calculate an approximate time for getting through the product.

Without seeing the product, I can't be certain of how long it'll take, but let's look at the starter set.  My players made it from first to fifth level in the starter set in about 8 sessions, each of which was 4 hours long.  They hit second level at the end of the first session, and third level at the end of session three.  So, yes, the early levels go quickly simply because they were built to go quickly.  The Xp values on the level progression table, and the fact that many classes don't get defining features (like subclasses) until second or third level is evidence of that.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 22, 2018)

Langy said:


> Gotta admit, I don't like it. Ravnica shouldn't be the first non-Forgotten Realms setting in D&D 5e, and I really hope it's not going to be the *only* non-Faerun setting we see get a full treatment. If it turns out the announcement tomorrow is that they're publishing a full Ravnica setting book and opening Planescape up to the DM's Guild or something but not publishing an actual book for it, I'm not going to be pleased at all.
> 
> 
> Yes, cross-promotion/corporate synergy is a good idea and all, but it's not like the Magic the Gathering lore actually matters (or, for the most part, exists). It'd be a lot easier to create a MtG pack based on D&D than the other way around if they wanted to cross-promote, so I'm not certain what their goal is here - though I wouldn't be surprised if the order for cross-promotion came from corporate.



The goal is to sell a $50 book to the gazillions of Magic players with high disposable incomes. That makes a lot more sense businesswise than trying to sell some $4 booster packs to the smaller number of D&D players who may not be as willing to spend as much.


----------



## robus (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> They've also referenced _Curse of Strahd_ as the model.
> So at _most_ I'm expecting a 30-page PDF that is mostly an introductory adventure with very limited new crunch, followed by opening up the DMsGuild and letting the fans do it. At very likely just the latter with the Guild and fans doing the work.
> Which is okay, but hasn't exactly resulted in a whole lot of support for the setting or really introduced the setting to new fans as the vast, vast majority of D&D players don't visit the Guild.




I think the issue with Ravenloft is its scope, at least in 5e, is so limited. It’s not a living, breathing world bursting with adventure possibilities. Instead it’s a demiplane focused on a small region bounded by the mists. Basically it’s a setup for a one-shot.

Innistrad, on the other hand, has a similar vibe but has very distinct regions that could host a variety of adventures.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Agreed. I'm hoping we get *something* in the Guild that isn't just "fans can do Eberron now."
> 
> 
> There's going to be disappointed people, yes. But people are more upset because we'd spent a month wondering what the announcement would be and staff at WotC spent much of that time teasing up with the possibility it might be something classic.
> ...




"It's not what you think" - that's pretty much the exact words they used.

And there where lots of hints of an original setting, and even more for some kind of crossover - just look back through the earlier threads if you don't believe me.


So there was no foul, no trolling, they played with a perfectly straight bat.


----------



## Leatherhead (Jul 22, 2018)

I stopped playing M:tG back sometime in 5th edition. Back when WotC said they were never going to do this kind of thing. 

Two issues I would have with this:
One. The magical systems in the games follow dissimilar philosophies. Which is a huge deal, seeing as how the 5 types of mana represent the core brand identity of M:tG, and the magic in D&D has always been intentionally weird and slightly incompatible with other known systems for reasons. One way or the other, something is going to lose out.
Two. There are multiple existing metropolitan settings for D&D that feature distinct "clubs" of people. There is a difference in scale, but so much in kind, which is what matters because nobody has the time to explore an entire planet. Additionally, those existing settings will most likely be remembered more favorably in the long run, considering they were more or less tailor made to showcase whatever edition they debuted in, and this is made to showcase M:tG in a totally different mechanical system.


----------



## pming (Jul 22, 2018)

Hiya!

*shrug* Not interested, but then again I wasn't expecting to be. I haven't bought a single non-core book from WotC (I picked up the spells book and the monsters book from Necromancer Games iirc). The biggest problem I see for the whole Ravnica Planet-Sized City thing is that after an hour or two of DM'ing it me and my players will be thinking..._Uh, ok, so why aren't we playing a sci-fi game instead_. If I want a huge city with advanced "tech/magic" and so much "diversity" that you might as well not bother to learn or care about anything other than "Whats your name? What do we do? How much are you going to pay?" because of diverse-information-overload...then the setting will fail. At leas for me and my group. The old line from Syndrome still holds true: _When everyone is super...no one will be!_ 

A setting _needs_ to have the majority of it be plain, boring, and "common" so that the things that are different stand out. If everything and everyone is "special" with regards to race, guild, political view, religious view, special abilities, hair colour, etc...then people will just ignore all of it and pick a single thing to define that person. "...yeah yeah yeah....bla bla bla...you will be 'pink-haired inn chick', and you will be 'wierd mecha-gnome dude'...how much you gonna pay us?". All that "diversity" will be ignored. At best. At worst, it becomes a running joke or even a point of contention. (_I swear, if this Jill person isn't a regular, brown haired blue eyed human female in a plain old dress...I'm gonna scream!_).

Anyway, enough ranting. I'm mostly interested in hearing what the two 'other' releases they will announce are going to be. Actually, scratch that, I'm interested in reading about the people who think it's the best idea since the d20 argue and debate with the people who think it's the heralding of the great end times of the RPG industry.  I love hearing other peoples views on stuff...even if I'm of a completely opposite mind. Helps keep me grounded in reality (which is usually somewhere in between).

^_^

Paul L. Ming


----------



## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> "It's not what you think" - that's pretty much the exact words they used.
> 
> And there where lots of hints of an original setting, and even more for some kind of crossover - just look back through the earlier threads if you don't believe me.
> 
> ...



Except the senior director has trolled the fans repeatedly with suggestions of classic settings:
https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1014196339368812544?s=20
https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1016444525886128128?s=20

He even referred to it as “trolling”:
https://twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1014199261808881664?s=20

There _was_ foul. There _was_ trolling. 
He got hopes up. And now I’m disappointed by the reveal.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 22, 2018)

So the rumors are panning out. This is exciting, and hardly precludes other setting material, particularly since they have said multiple setting products are in the works.


----------



## pkt77242 (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Except the senior director has trolled the fans repeatedly with suggestions of classic settings:
> https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1014196339368812544?s=20
> https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1016444525886128128?s=20
> 
> ...





You are jumping the gun a little. You should wait till the end of tomorrow to see if you are disappointed or not. You are taking one piece of information and making a lot of assumptions based off of it. 

In the end you might be correct but at this point you don’t really know that at this point.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 22, 2018)

mjsoctober said:


> It's not that we don't want something new, it's that we don't want MtG in our D&D.




"We"? Speak for yourself.

Obviously, not everyone is excited that Ravnica appears to be a new setting for D&D. But some folks are, and some folks are ambivalent. There has never been a strong consensus "we" when it comes to what the fans want WotC to produce for D&D.

(_not aimed at MJS in particular, more of a general rant_) And, as always, if crossing Magic with D&D isn't your cup of tea . . . stop whining and just don't buy the book! It's okay not to like the idea, it's okay to wish WotC had gone a different direction, it's okay to be bummed by the revelation . . . but some of you guys just turn into big crybabies when you don't get what you want!


----------



## Staffan (Jul 22, 2018)

MechaPilot said:


> Combine this with the $50 adventure that only takes characters to level 5 (Dragon Heist says on the WotC products page that it's an adventure for lvls 1-5.  That's $10 per level, and the first three levels of play are really short in 5e.) and I'm not terribly impressed by what's been announced for release this year.
> 
> I'll definitely give the products a proper once-over when they arrive at my local hobby shop, but the only one I'm currently thinking I might buy is the 5-20 adventure.  Maybe.  It depends on how interwoven it is with Waterdeep.  I don't play in FR.



My impression of Dragon Heist is that it's at least 50% Waterdeep sourcebook and no more than 50% adventure. Now, if you're not interested in FR, it's probably not the book for you, but saying it's "$10 per level" is implying that it's all adventure and has no value for money at all.


----------



## Remathilis (Jul 22, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> "It's not what you think" - that's pretty much the exact words they used.
> 
> And there where lots of hints of an original setting, and even more for some kind of crossover - just look back through the earlier threads if you don't believe me.
> 
> ...






Jester David said:


> Except the senior director has trolled the fans repeatedly with suggestions of classic settings:
> https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1014196339368812544?s=20
> https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1016444525886128128?s=20
> 
> ...




I think you're both wrong.

There was some implication of crossover, but aside from a few forum posters here, I never saw any reference to MTG in regards to the setting(s) being revealed. 

The only reason we know about Ravnica is because an Amazon store jumped the gun and put a presale up on a physical product that will go on sale in 4 months. We don't know about any classic D&D settings yet because a.) there is no physical product or b.) its release will be in 2019 and thus way too early to put on Amazon. My wager is both. 

We could end up with a playtest for Eberron until the book comes out in April of 2019. Or get some sort of web-series detailing different settings. Or a new Manual of the Planes, or a the oft-mentioned "Guide to the D&D Multiverse" style book next year. All of those things could be announced tomorrow and they wouldn't affect the Ravnica stuff this year.

All we know is a.) the Mythical 4th D&D book in 2018 is real and b.) its an MTG crossover setting. We also know Nathan Stewart has heavily implied one or more D&D settings that will satisfy the "hardcore D&D fanbase". This leads me to believe the other shoe will drop.

We WILL get an MTG setting as something new/fresh for D&D.

We WILL get at least one classic setting back in some form or another.

We will know the extent of both tomorrow.

Until then, I remain optimistic for Eberron and Ravnica (perhaps the artificer class can appear in both).


----------



## SkidAce (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Except the senior director has trolled the fans repeatedly with suggestions of classic settings:
> https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1014196339368812544?s=20
> https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1016444525886128128?s=20
> 
> ...




What if they reveal classic setting tomorrow?

Then it wasn't trolling, right?

Edit:  Sorry, I see my point was already addressed.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 22, 2018)

Staffan said:


> My impression of Dragon Heist is that it's at least 50% Waterdeep sourcebook and no more than 50% adventure. Now, if you're not interested in FR, it's probably not the book for you, but saying it's "$10 per level" is implying that it's all adventure and has no value for money at all.




Plus, what other people seem to already be forgetting about Dragon Heist is that it is four separate level 1-5 adventures, one for each season and with four different bosses at the end to deal with.


----------



## Dynel (Jul 22, 2018)

To each their own and all but this is one I'm going to pass on, if it does indeed turn out to be a Ravnica setting for 5e.  It'll be the first official 5e product I don't buy.  If WotC feels the need to produce a M:tG-based setting when there's so many cool D&D settings waiting to be released, that's cool I guess.  I'd much rather see an old one redone for 5e, but that's my personal opinion.


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 22, 2018)

The only things that are actually official are what comes out in the hardcover books.  UA is for playtesting and DMs Guild is mostly unofficial stuff for homebrew.  

What's different about this is it comes out at the end of the year after the new season of D&D has already started.  Dragon Heist comes out, then Undermountain and this.  This being a new setting with new races and a few new class options (I hope I get to use some in AL, even though that may not be available,  but we'll see.)  I also hope that the colors of magic means something other than flavor.   The guild system is interesting and much more fleshed out than the factions in D&D.  If for no other reason, I'm getting it because my name will be in it.  Lol


----------



## vpuigdoller (Jul 22, 2018)

I think the mana colors are better handled either by backgrounds, factions or feats than actual magical mechanics.


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 22, 2018)

vpuigdoller said:


> I think the mana colors are better ha dled either by backgrounds, factions or feats than actual magical mechanics.



I feel like there should be something to the colors.  If you're in a red/green guild, and you use red magic, you should maybe get some kind of bonus, like maybe +1 to your spell DC.


----------



## DMZ2112 (Jul 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Third, the ISBN is associated with that book:
> https://isbnsearch.org/isbn/9780786966592




This may or may not be relevant, but it doesn't seem to be anymore.

I agree that it is pretty unlikely that this is a fake out, but I'll reserve the bulk of my frustration and disappointment for tomorrow just in case.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 22, 2018)

pkt77242 said:


> You are jumping the gun a little. You should wait till the end of tomorrow to see if you are disappointed or not. You are taking one piece of information and making a lot of assumptions based off of it.
> 
> In the end you might be correct but at this point you don’t really know that at this point.



So... I got my hopes up and was disappointed. And so I should get my hopes up _again_? 
Won't I likely just be disappointed again?



Remathilis said:


> We could end up with a playtest for Eberron until the book comes out in April of 2019.



Again, there's pretty much no way they'll do two campaign settings back-to-back.
Even if they did decide to risk it, there's not really enough time to playtest a revised Artificer class for April (barely enough for subclasses). It'd be races at best.
Plus, do you remember seeing a Ravnica playtest? Why would we get an Eberron one?



Remathilis said:


> Or get some sort of web-series detailing different settings. Or a new Manual of the Planes, or a the oft-mentioned "Guide to the D&D Multiverse" style book next year.



They've been pretty clear that they're not doing the same books they did previously. So no _Manual of the Planes_. 
And the "_Guide to the Multiverse_" was half expected by the content we ended up getting in _Tome of Foes_. The idea of a "big book of setting crunch" is pretty much wishful thinking. Like the requests for more boxed sets.



Remathilis said:


> All of those things could be announced tomorrow and they wouldn't affect the Ravnica stuff this year.



They're not. Because they'll announce the spring 2019 book in January or February of that year. 
Anything they announce tomorrow will be the stuff they tease that's coming out this summer. Which, since we don't have Amazon listings or ISBNs, will be digital offerings. 



Remathilis said:


> All we know is a.) the Mythical 4th D&D book in 2018 is real and b.) its an MTG crossover setting. We also know Nathan Stewart has heavily implied one or more D&D settings that will satisfy the "hardcore D&D fanbase". This leads me to believe the other shoe will drop.
> 
> We WILL get an MTG setting as something new/fresh for D&D.
> 
> ...



Again, I expect PDFs akin to the MtG Planeshift books, only for the other settings. 
Possibly with an updated draft of the artificer. Which won't appear in Ravnica, as there's not enough time to playtest it before it goes to print.


----------



## Jacob Lewis (Jul 22, 2018)

Ha!


----------



## SMHWorlds (Jul 22, 2018)

I am definitely okay with it. An entirely new setting could be a breath of fresh air for a pretty stale fandom.


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 22, 2018)

I'm here for the pictures, and to see what changes were made.  Lol


----------



## kenmarable (Jul 23, 2018)

So as someone who has zero background in M:tG, but is really excited about this - are there any good sources to get some background on Ravnica (other than just digging through pages of Google results)?

I see there is a novel trilogy and novella trilogy - those any good? I have no idea how much lore and setting information there is for part of a card game, but I'm excited to find out. 
(Oh, and I don't mean that in a disparaging way. Like I said, I have no experience with M:tG, so I really have no idea how much setting information they put into things. Thanks!)


----------



## Bupp (Jul 23, 2018)

I'm excited about this! I've been tinkering around on my blog with mixing D&D with M:TG.
https://jonbupp.wordpress.com/?s=plane+shifted


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 23, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> I think you're both wrong.
> 
> There was some implication of crossover, but aside from a few forum posters here, I never saw any reference to MTG in regards to the setting(s) being revealed.
> 
> ...




This seems about right. I'm wagering an Eberron and/or themed UA is likely, looking at a future book that would have the Artificer, Psion et al.


----------



## Sunseeker (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Right. And they managed to do that without a dedicated product.



So what?  Like, this comment means _literally_ nothing.  We managed to do a lot of things without a dedicated product.  The fact that you don't _like_ it isn't an argument that it shouldn't _exist_.  I don't like a lot of well, pretty much every D&D setting ever.

Guess what?  Don't like it: *DON'T PLAY IT*.



> Yes, but you want to release products that appeal to both groups. Old players _and_ new players. You can't just try and appeal solely to new players and trust your old audience will keep buying the books.



And this product appeals to _new_ players, while the _entire design_ of 5E is to appeal to _older players_.



> (That was one of the weaknesses with 4e. They focused entirely on getting new people and just assumed the existing fans would keep buying.)



As an avid fan of 4E and someone who is *well aware* of the problems with earlier editions, you are about 2 sentences away from having me go full edition-war on your butt.  So quit while you're ahead.  Because if you're going to attack this new product via pass-aggressive edition warring, I am _so_​ going to report every post you make.

Jesus, with some of the comments in this thread you'd think WOTC had just killed someone's mother and pissed on the corpse.


----------



## Turbo_Knuckles (Jul 23, 2018)

robus said:


> I think someone started noticing that there was duplicated effort going on: Ravenloft - Innistrad, Chult - Ixalan, Dominaria - Forgotten Realms. It’s time to put the wood behind one arrow. New Magic plane, new D&D campaign setting. It makes a lot of sense and lets D&D remain evergreen rather than mired in the past.
> 
> I know it will make many folks unhappy, but sometimes you have to let the past go in order to thrive in the future.




But it's not the future. It's cross-brand marketing. Ravnica is established MtG IP. It's 15 years old. The "future" would be a completely new campaign setting. I'm sure that would also upset a segment of D&D hobbyists, but it at least wouldn't be a ham-handed marketing push coming from Hasbro. Get ready for a _Player's Guide to Cybertron_, or, _Rita's Dumpster Delve_.


----------



## Sunseeker (Jul 23, 2018)

kenmarable said:


> So as someone who has zero background in M:tG, but is really excited about this - are there any good sources to get some background on Ravnica (other than just digging through pages of Google results)?
> 
> I see there is a novel trilogy and novella trilogy - those any good? I have no idea how much lore and setting information there is for part of a card game, but I'm excited to find out.
> (Oh, and I don't mean that in a disparaging way. Like I said, I have no experience with M:tG, so I really have no idea how much setting information they put into things. Thanks!)




The books are okay.  Kinda fun but campy fantasy novels.  They give a good impression of the state of things in the initial setting.

I'd also suggest looking up the cards from the sets of: Ravnica, Guildpact & Dissension and Return to Ravnica & Gatecrash.
From the former, the cards add useful flavor to the setting, which will give you a fair impression of the guilds, how they operate and so forth.
For Return & Gatecrash, there are no books.  So the story is entirely contained on the flavor text of the cards, as well as some supplemental things WotC put out online at the time.  I'm not sure how easy those will be to find.


----------



## MechaPilot (Jul 23, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Plus, what other people seem to already be forgetting about Dragon Heist is that it is four separate level 1-5 adventures, one for each season and with four different bosses at the end to deal with.




Where has that been said?  It's not in the product info.



> A fantastic treasure trove is yours for the taking in this adventure for the world's greatest roleplaying game.
> 
> Famed explorer Volothamp Geddarm needs you to complete a simple quest. Thus begins a mad romp through the wards of Waterdeep as you uncover a villainous plot involving some of the city’s most influential figures.
> 
> A grand urban caper awaits you. Pit your skill and bravado against villains the likes of which you’ve never faced before, and let the dragon hunt begin!


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Even if they did decide to risk it, there's not really enough time to playtest a revised Artificer class for April (barely enough for subclasses). It'd be races at best.
> Plus, do you remember seeing a Ravnica playtest? Why would we get an Eberron one?




We've had a number of Ravnica playtests in the past year, such as the M:tG Centaur & Minotaur. Warforged and Artificers would be more blatant, but not much.


----------



## fjw70 (Jul 23, 2018)

Don’t know any Mage lore but this looks interesting so I will give it a shot.


----------



## Sunseeker (Jul 23, 2018)

Turbo_Knuckles said:


> But it's not the future. It's cross-brand marketing. Ravnica is established MtG IP. It's 15 years old. The "future" would be a completely new campaign setting. I'm sure that would also upset a segment of D&D hobbyists, but it at least wouldn't be a ham-handed marketing push coming from Hasbro. Get ready for a _Player's Guide to Cybertron_, or, _Rita's Dumpster Delve_.




It's amazing how many people have no posts except to dump on this topic.  Like seriously, do you people get paid?


----------



## Greatwyrm (Jul 23, 2018)

I had to go read up on this, since I quit MtG way before the Ravnica got there.  It looks okay, but the main hope that I have is that this will have lots of tools for urban adventuring.  I don't think I've run an official setting since Dark Sun was new, but city info would be great. 

I'm still sure I heard on one of the youtube/twitch shows that they had *two* surprises left for the end of the year.


----------



## Remathilis (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> So... I got my hopes up and was disappointed. And so I should get my hopes up _again_?
> Won't I likely just be disappointed again?




Your first mistake was assuming all the noise was about this and only this product. You are looking to be let down rather than see what shakes out. I recall a lot people were upset with Dragon Heist was announced; there was a lot of "that's it?" until Dungeon of the Mad Mage came out as well. 



Jester David said:


> Again, there's pretty much no way they'll do two campaign settings back-to-back.
> Even if they did decide to risk it, there's not really enough time to playtest a revised Artificer class for April (barely enough for subclasses). It'd be races at best.
> Plus, do you remember seeing a Ravnica playtest? Why would we get an Eberron one?




They pulled the artificer off the DM's Guild a few months back, which to me says they have enough feedback and are opting for in-house fine-tuning.

Ravnica didn't need a playtest because... its all new to D&D! Seriously, there has never been Loxodons, Vedalken, or Viashino before, so we have no basis of comparison. 

HOWEVER, Eberron has four races that are both mechanically complex  AND have changed over the two editions they appeared in. Remember the first UA article? Its universally reviled for its poor takes on changlings, shifters and warforged (along with its half-assed artificer subclass and dragonmarks). I can easily see them releasing a new take on that old UA article that, with three years of experience under their belt, tries new takes on warforged (attempting to balance the mechanical life-form rules and finding some fix for the armored body mechanic), shifter (which was feat-intensive in 3.5 and stripped-bare in 4e) and changling (which was fine, but needed  some oomph). In addition, another pass at dragonmarks would be greatly appreciated. 

Basically, I expect them to show those mechanical elements again, looking to see if the new version respects the 3e/4e versions while still being balanced enough to play. That's worthy of a UA. 



Jester David said:


> They've been pretty clear that they're not doing the same books they did previously. So no _Manual of the Planes_.
> And the "_Guide to the Multiverse_" was half expected by the content we ended up getting in _Tome of Foes_. The idea of a "big book of setting crunch" is pretty much wishful thinking. Like the requests for more boxed sets.




MotP = Some planar/Planescape book; be it a guide, an adventure like Modron March, or a hybrid of both. And WotC is going to need to do something to get things like Warforged, defilers, kenders, and the like into player's hands if they are remotely serious about support "the multiverse" beyond cheeky references. 



Jester David said:


> They're not. Because they'll announce the spring 2019 book in January or February of that year.
> Anything they announce tomorrow will be the stuff they tease that's coming out this summer. Which, since we don't have Amazon listings or ISBNs, will be digital offerings.




Again, all WotC has to do is say "Next year, we'll be going to Eberron. For now, here is a UA of the core Eberron races and dragonmarks, and we're opening it up to the DM's Guild effective today. We'll be announcing a new Eberron book in 2019." 

You get a taste of it now, something to play with until the Eberron book is ready next year. Maybe no in April, but certainly by November. 

Remember, WotC is shaking up the formula this year; source book instead of adventure in the spring; two-part adventure in Sept, and a setting book in Nov. Plus whatever they announce tomorrow. We're venturing into uncharted territory. 



Jester David said:


> Again, I expect PDFs akin to the MtG Planeshift books, only for the other settings.
> Possibly with an updated draft of the artificer. Which won't appear in Ravnica, as there's not enough time to playtest it before it goes to print.




I expect we'll see more than that. I'd put it up to a friendly wager, but seeing how you were adamant the "4th D&D book in 2018" was either the art book OR the coloring book, it might be in your best interest to decline to wager on this.


----------



## mach1.9pants (Jul 23, 2018)

Not my style, so this'll be the first thing I'm not pre-ordering but awaiting reviews. I'm not big into DnD as Shadowrun, which is what this seems to be. Hopefully it's good enough to draw old grumpy peeps like me in!


----------



## MechaPilot (Jul 23, 2018)

Staffan said:


> My impression of Dragon Heist is that it's at least 50% Waterdeep sourcebook and no more than 50% adventure. Now, if you're not interested in FR, it's probably not the book for you, but saying it's "$10 per level" is implying that it's all adventure and has no value for money at all.




I neither run nor like FR.  For me, and probably for other homebrew setting DMs, the book IS just an adventure book.  If it's done well, there might be a handful of elements apart from the adventure that can give me inspiration for my own creations, but I can't expect that to be present before buying it (these things often come up only on a thorough reading of the product).  If it's tied too heavily to the FR setting, the amount of work I'll have to put in to make it fit my setting will make the book not worth the full $50 price tag (especially for a book that covers the fastest moving character levels).


----------



## cbwjm (Jul 23, 2018)

kenmarable said:


> So as someone who has zero background in M:tG, but is really excited about this - are there any good sources to get some background on Ravnica (other than just digging through pages of Google results)?
> 
> I see there is a novel trilogy and novella trilogy - those any good? I have no idea how much lore and setting information there is for part of a card game, but I'm excited to find out.
> (Oh, and I don't mean that in a disparaging way. Like I said, I have no experience with M:tG, so I really have no idea how much setting information they put into things. Thanks!)




To get some background on Ravnica, I would suggest looking at the story page of the plane on the MtG website: https://magic.wizards.com/en/story/planes/ravnica. This should give a good overview of the setting's guilds and races.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 23, 2018)

MechaPilot said:


> Where has that been said?  It's not in the product info.




They talked all about it during the Stream of Many Eyes when it was introduced. And the current issue of Dragon+ has an extensive preview article detailing how it works.


----------



## Kite474 (Jul 23, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> To get some background on Ravnica, I would suggest looking at the story page of the plane on the MtG website: https://magic.wizards.com/en/story/planes/ravnica. This should give a good overview of the setting's guilds and races.




I second this. Another good thing to look through would be the actual card sets themselves. While not giving the entire story they really show off the flavor and mood of Ravnica

Old Set (this was when Ravnica was first released):
http://www.mythicspoiler.com/rav/index.html
http://www.mythicspoiler.com/gpt/index.html
http://www.mythicspoiler.com/dis/index.html

Return (this was around 2013 when the setting was revisited):
http://www.mythicspoiler.com/rtr/index.html
http://www.mythicspoiler.com/gtc/guilds.html
http://www.mythicspoiler.com/dgm/index.html


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 23, 2018)

MechaPilot said:


> I neither run nor like FR.  For me, and probably for other homebrew setting DMs, the book IS just an adventure book.  If it's done well, there might be a handful of elements apart from the adventure that can give me inspiration for my own creations, but I can't expect that to be present before buying it (these things often come up only on a thorough reading of the product).  If it's tied too heavily to the FR setting, the amount of work I'll have to put in to make it fit my setting will make the book not worth the full $50 price tag (especially for a book that covers the fastest moving character levels).




Well, in addition to being multiple adventures in one, much of the book apprentlly details how to run a game in a major city, including many charts. The book seems to have a good deal of utility for homebrewed, as is the norm for WotC FR APs.


----------



## MechaPilot (Jul 23, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> They talked all about it during the Stream of Many Eyes when it was introduced. And the current issue of Dragon+ has an extensive preview article detailing how it works.




Ah.  That would be why I'd never heard of it.  I don't view the streams and I don't subscribe to Dragon+.  If it's not in the product info, put forth here on EnWorld, or mentioned in a YouTube video I won't be aware of it.

Although that does raise the question of why it's not in the product info.  The product is listed as an adventure for levels 1-5, and the details fails to mention multiple adventures, which is odd because Tales from the Yawning Portal clearly mentions seven adventures.


----------



## pkt77242 (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> So... I got my hopes up and was disappointed. And so I should get my hopes up _again_?
> Won't I likely just be disappointed again?




The original point was that there was no reason to be disappointed today, that you are overreacting to something to which you don’t have the answer.   

Ultimately you get to choose how you respond to it. Ravnica isn’t what I wanted (my preference is Dragonlance but I highly doubt that it will be happen) but I do hold out some hope that the announcement tomorrow will bring some things of interest to me.   I just don’t see the reason to get worked up when you don’t even know what they will announce tomorrow.


----------



## MechaPilot (Jul 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Well, in addition to being multiple adventures in one, much of the book apprentlly details how to run a game in a major city, including many charts. The book seems to have a good deal of utility for homebrewed, as is the norm for WotC FR APs.




I agree that material for better running city-based adventures would give the book more value to homebrew DMs.  I hope that section of the book is very robust.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> We've had a number of Ravnica playtests in the past year, such as the M:tG Centaur & Minotaur. Warforged and Artificers would be more blatant, but not much.




 Yep,  I just did some research into Ravnica being unfamiliar with the setting,  and I found someones homebrew version of Ravnica 5e D&D just to get an idea of what we might be able to expect, and two of the races were Minotaur and Centaur, which we have had a UA on,  but which fit into D&D well enough not to tip WotC's hand on Ravnica. 

 Now for me the question is how does this fit into ALs plans,  if at all. Could parts or all of it be AL legal? 

 Does Sigil have portals to Ravnica? 

 Does D&D Ravnica interact with the regular D&D universe at all? Will their be a Ravnica adventure?


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HybOBZfXE-

Some bodies homebrew version of the setting that I found, just to get one possible taste of possiblies.


----------



## Magean (Jul 23, 2018)

I was hoping for Eberron and / or Dark Sun but this is not bad news, Ravnica always was my favored Magic setting. And in many ways, it's Eberron-like; at least the pulp, urban adventures, and faction intrigues part.

In fact I'm considering myself extremely lucky that WotC chose to focus on just that setting. I was expecting a simple pdf as we had for other Magic settings, and this is far beyond my expectations. Anyway, I have enough Eberron material.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 23, 2018)

MechaPilot said:


> Ah.  That would be why I'd never heard of it.  I don't view the streams and I don't subscribe to Dragon+.  If it's not in the product info, put forth here on EnWorld, or mentioned in a YouTube video I won't be aware of it.
> 
> Although that does raise the question of why it's not in the product info.  The product is listed as an adventure for levels 1-5, and the details fails to mention multiple adventures, which is odd because Tales from the Yawning Portal clearly mentions seven adventures.




It's not multiple adventures the way that TftYP is, it is more like the random elements in Ravenloft: the main adventure can take place in one of four seasons, which switches the antagonist and a number of minor encounters. So, less multiple adventures, as multiple events that can be recombined or reused as needed.


----------



## robus (Jul 23, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Plus, what other people seem to already be forgetting about Dragon Heist is that it is four separate level 1-5 adventures, one for each season and with four different bosses at the end to deal with.




Yeah, that’s the bit I don’t like. Seems like a cop out (but perhaps it’s a way to put the focus on different parts of the city so the sourcebook material is more organically included. But i’m still not thrilled about it.)


----------



## Lidgar (Jul 23, 2018)

Surprised by all the angst.

Anyways, looks interesting!


----------



## Jester David (Jul 23, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> Your first mistake was assuming all the noise was about this and only this product. You are looking to be let down rather than see what shakes out. I recall a lot people were upset with Dragon Heist was announced; there was a lot of "that's it?" until Dungeon of the Mad Mage came out as well.



Oh, lord, that was such a let down. 
The very end and they announce the next book with a prerecorded video and barely go into any details. Like an afterthought. 

And the stream didn't touch on things like the new board games and the like. Such a wasted opportunity. The Stream of Annihilation was handled so much better.



Remathilis said:


> They pulled the artificer off the DM's Guild a few months back, which to me says they have enough feedback and are opting for in-house fine-tuning.



I'm expecting another revision first. That was the first draft of it as a class, and a lot of work still needed to be done. After all, they did two prior versions of the psion/mystic and threw out almost everything when they started the third draft. 

I think we need a new revision playtest the next iteration for a few months first. If not the better part of a year.



Remathilis said:


> Ravnica didn't need a playtest because... its all new to D&D! Seriously, there has never been Loxodons, Vedalken, or Viashino before, so we have no basis of comparison.



The content still needs to be balanced.



Remathilis said:


> HOWEVER, Eberron has four races that are both mechanically complex AND have changed over the two editions they appeared in. Remember the first UA article? Its universally reviled for its poor takes on changlings, shifters and warforged (along with its half-assed artificer subclass and dragonmarks). I can easily see them releasing a new take on that old UA article that, with three years of experience under their belt, tries new takes on warforged (attempting to balance the mechanical life-form rules and finding some fix for the armored body mechanic), shifter (which was feat-intensive in 3.5 and stripped-bare in 4e) and changling (which was fine, but needed some oomph). In addition, another pass at dragonmarks would be greatly appreciated.



Universally? 
I remember the dragonmarks being disliked and the class not being recieved well. But races feedback was mixed, with several being well recieved. 



Remathilis said:


> I expect we'll see more than that. I'd put it up to a friendly wager, but seeing how you were adamant the "4th D&D book in 2018" was either the art book OR the coloring book, it might be in your best interest to decline to wager on this.



I was mostly _trying_ not to get my hopes up for a 4th hardcover, because if it didn't materialise I'd be disappointed. I failed at that and, man, did that bite me in the ass. It did materialise but was the opposite of what I wanted.
(What's the reverse of having your cake and eating it too?)
So, yeah, thanks very much for that.

But it seemed unlikely they'd do a fourth hardcover, with two others being done by the WotC team. 
It was a failure of imagination on my part not to expect a 96-page hardcover likely in part done by the MtG team (if only from their setting bible) and potentially using recycled art from cards.

However, the rumour is still _two _settings this summer. And Eberron can be only one. 
I wouldn't be surprised with a new artificer playtest, but I'm not holding my breath for a hardcover in 2019. Instead, I'm expecting a 15-30 page PDFs and a setting or two opened up on the Guild.


----------



## Remathilis (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> (What's the reverse of having your cake and eating it too?)




It's the same, but the cake is filled with wasps.


----------



## mjsoctober (Jul 23, 2018)

Staffan said:


> My impression of Dragon Heist is that it's at least 50% Waterdeep sourcebook and no more than 50% adventure. Now, if you're not interested in FR, it's probably not the book for you, but saying it's "$10 per level" is implying that it's all adventure and has no value for money at all.




The "we" doesn't refer to everyone in D&D, but I'm not alone, so since there's more than one of us who don't want MTG in D&D, then we constitute _a _"we" if not _the_ "we".

And as long as Ravnica doesn't come at the expense of something _D&D _related (instead of MtG), then sure, I can live with just not buying it. If, however, it turns out D&D mgmt decided to give us Ravnica _instead_ of a D&D campaign setting, then "we" are at least partially justified in being upset.


----------



## Turbo_Knuckles (Jul 23, 2018)

Sunseeker said:


> It's amazing how many people have no posts except to dump on this topic.  Like seriously, do you people get paid?




This is what you do on boards right? Read/reply/repeat. I'm not planning a boycott or clutching some snotty handkerchief. I don't think D&D is being ruined. I'm glad this opens the hobby to potential players, and I'll probably end up buying the book. But I got an opinion on the topic at hand and it's the first time I've felt compelled to post here. Maybe I should only post cute character ideas for a Monk Tortle build, or ask how to optimize my Tabaxi Lore Bard?


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

pming said:


> *shrug* Not interested, but then again I wasn't expecting to be. I haven't bought a single non-core book from WotC (I picked up the spells book and the monsters book from Necromancer Games iirc). The biggest problem I see for the whole Ravnica Planet-Sized City thing is that after an hour or two of DM'ing it me and my players will be thinking..._Uh, ok, so why aren't we playing a sci-fi game instead_. If I want a huge city with advanced "tech/magic" and so much "diversity" that you might as well not bother to learn or care about anything other than "Whats your name? What do we do? How much are you going to pay?" because of diverse-information-overload...then the setting will fail. At leas for me and my group. The old line from Syndrome still holds true: _When everyone is super...no one will be!_
> 
> A setting _needs_ to have the majority of it be plain, boring, and "common" so that the things that are different stand out. If everything and everyone is "special" with regards to race, guild, political view, religious view, special abilities, hair colour, etc...then people will just ignore all of it and pick a single thing to define that person. "...yeah yeah yeah....bla bla bla...you will be 'pink-haired inn chick', and you will be 'wierd mecha-gnome dude'...how much you gonna pay us?". All that "diversity" will be ignored. At best. At worst, it becomes a running joke or even a point of contention. (_I swear, if this Jill person isn't a regular, brown haired blue eyed human female in a plain old dress...I'm gonna scream!_).



You... may be jumping to some unwarranted conclusions about what Ravnica looks like. (Your troubling implications about "diversity" we shall leave for another conversation.) I recommend you read the resources that others have linked on the setting, keeping an open mind rather than looking for things to hate, and, if you're paticularly interested in "normal" people, paying special attention to subplot revolving around the guildless and their concerns. But the long and the short of it is that, socially, technologically, and thematically, Ravnica is more like a really big Waterdeep than it is Coruscant. Why on Earth should "city" imply science fiction?


----------



## MechaPilot (Jul 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> It's not multiple adventures the way that TftYP is, it is more like the random elements in Ravenloft: the main adventure can take place in one of four seasons, which switches the antagonist and a number of minor encounters. So, less multiple adventures, as multiple events that can be recombined or reused as needed.




That's a bit less useful to me than a book with separate adventures would be.  However, thank you for letting me know about that.  I appreciate the additional info.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 23, 2018)

pkt77242 said:


> The original point was that there was no reason to be disappointed today, that you are overreacting to something to which you don’t have the answer.



Oh, *absolutely*. 



pkt77242 said:


> Ultimately you get to choose how you respond to it.



Not really.
It's those pesky human emotions. You can't *choose *how you feel about things. 

I'm know not losing anything. Logically, I know that I'm buying the same number of D&D books in the fall as I thought I was yesterday. This new announcement doesn't change anything.

And yet there was always that faint hope there'd be something cool in the fall. Eberron or Planescape or something else. I'm reconciling the infinite coolness of a theoretical and potential product with the reality of a book I don't even know I'm interested enough in to snag a pirated PDF.

I think I described it elsewhere as if the Dungeon & Dragons team—instead of resurrecting any of the dozen existing settings—decided to release a D&D campaign setting based on an old '80s Hasbro toy line. Like Inhumanoids or Visionaries: Knights of the Magical Light. 
Sure, some people would be surprised and excited, but it feels like a missed opportunity. There's so very, very many D&D worlds out there that are unique and instead it feels like they're pandering to a different audience. 

Sure, not everything has to be for me. I am not the target audience for all things D&D. 
And, yes, it makes sense as a product and I can understand and support WotC's reasoning. Possibly even defend it. 
But that doesn't mean I can't also be disappointed and bummed out. 



pkt77242 said:


> Ravnica isn’t what I wanted (my preference is Dragonlance but I highly doubt that it will be happen) but I do hold out some hope that the announcement tomorrow will bring some things of interest to me.   I just don’t see the reason to get worked up when you don’t even know what they will announce tomorrow.



Naw.
Hope is a sucker's game. Keeping my expectations looooooow.

-edit-

Something I saw online, likely regarding She-ra.

View attachment 99609


----------



## Turbo_Knuckles (Jul 23, 2018)

Kite474 said:


> ...Another good thing to look through would be the actual card sets themselves. While not giving the entire story they really show off the flavor and mood of Ravnica
> 
> Old Set (this was when Ravnica was first released):
> http://www.mythicspoiler.com/rav/index.html
> ...




Thanks for this. It puts it further into context and piques my interest more than simply reading a Wiki.


----------



## DMZ2112 (Jul 23, 2018)

Turbo_Knuckles said:


> This is what you do on boards right? Read/reply/repeat.




I don't spend much time around here anymore, Turbo, but FWIW, welcome to the boards.  Regrets, for the initial response to your post.


----------



## Tales and Chronicles (Jul 23, 2018)

I'm mostly interested in the player options for this one. I like characters with a urban theme, so having new backgrounds or class options related to this would be interesting. The setting itself could be fun, but I find some other settings already published as Planeshift:X more interesting, such as Ixalan, Innistrad and Zendikar.


----------



## Eltab (Jul 23, 2018)

I suppose the question is: Given a planet-wide city, how is this different from *Trantor* (Azimov's _Foundation_ series) and *Coruscant* (_Star Wars_ capital world)?


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Oh, *absolutely*.
> 
> 
> Not really.
> ...




 I great what your saying, but Ravnica is most likely more popular then any of those, maybe even has a bigger market then the Forgotten Realms, MtGs audience I believe is bigger and has more fans then D&D I believe, so they are likely hoping to bring in magic the gathering fans into D&D, tapping into that large market.

 As an FR fan I hope they come out with FR MtG decks to draw attention to the setting for MtG fans as well.


----------



## Azzy (Jul 23, 2018)

vincegetorix said:


> I'm mostly interested in the player options for this one.




Honesty, that's about all I'm interested in from _any_ setting book that WotC releases. I tend to DM/play in Greyhawk, and it doesn't really require any mechanical support (outside some particular monsters), so any setting releases are of little interest to me outside of what mechanical options they offer.


----------



## Azzy (Jul 23, 2018)

Eltab said:


> I suppose the question is: Given a planet-wide city, how is this different from *Trantor* (Azimov's _Foundation_ series) and *Coruscant* (_Star Wars_ capital world)?



It probably lacks spaceships and other scifi elements.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

Looking at the races in the homebrew version of Ravnica, if the official setting has them too,  Minotaurs,  Centaurs, Loxodians (FR has had playable Elephant people in the Durpar Region, but they have two trunks), Dryads (perhaps slightly refluffed as hamadryads for playable dryads like in 4e), Merfolk, Vampires (refluffed perhaps as Vryloka for FR) all should be usable in FR. 

 Are their any other races in Ravnica or MtG that might get into the official Ravnica setting guide?


----------



## pkt77242 (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Not really.
> It's those pesky human emotions. You can't *choose *how you feel about things.
> 
> 
> ...




I think we are talking about two different things.  I agree that it is hard to control how we feel about something but we definitely can control how we respond to those feelings.  Disappointment is natural and understandable but how we handle and respond to that disappointment is well within our control.  Heck, I am sure that I will be disappointed tomorrow.


----------



## DMZ2112 (Jul 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> I great what your saying, but Ravnica is most likely more popular then any of those, maybe even has a bigger market then the Forgotten Realms, MtGs audience I believe is bigger and has more fans then D&D I believe, so they are likely hoping to bring in magic the gathering fans into D&D, tapping into that large market.
> 
> As an FR fan I hope they come out with FR MtG decks to draw attention to the setting for MtG fans as well.




Bleh, I don't.

I don't have anything against M:TG as a game -- it's fun, I played it for a long time -- but I have grave and long-standing ethical concerns about its marketing, and I am perfectly happy not having to worry about Hasbro conflating my D&D purchases with support for their addiction engine.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

Vedalken,  Viashino, Krual on the other hand might be a challenge fitting in FR lore. Maybe just use Viashino as mutant Lizardfolk or Dragonborn. Krual can double as, Thrikreen maybe,  and Vedalkens new refugees from Abeir,  or heck immigrants from Ravnica itself.


----------



## SkidAce (Jul 23, 2018)

MechaPilot said:


> Ah.  That would be why I'd never heard of it.  I don't view the streams and I don't subscribe to Dragon+.  If it's not in the product info, put forth here on EnWorld, or mentioned in a YouTube video I won't be aware of it.
> 
> Although that does raise the question of why it's not in the product info.  The product is listed as an adventure for levels 1-5, and the details fails to mention multiple adventures, which is odd because Tales from the Yawning Portal clearly mentions seven adventures.




What I read led me to believe you could run the adventure four times, with different adversaries and end boss each time.

So...replayable.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> I great what your saying, but Ravnica is most likely more popular then any of those, maybe even has a bigger market then the Forgotten Realms, MtGs audience I believe is bigger and has more fans then D&D I believe, so they are likely hoping to bring in magic the gathering fans into D&D, tapping into that large market.
> 
> As an FR fan I hope they come out with FR MtG decks to draw attention to the setting for MtG fans as well.




But, for example, if they go to Athas as a plane for a future Magic the Gathering card set, wouldn't the MtG fans be justified in being irked the set when to Dark Sun rather than returning to Amonkhet?


----------



## MechaPilot (Jul 23, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> What I read led me to believe you could run the adventure four times, with different adversaries and end boss each time.
> 
> So...replayable.




That's definitely better than not having that kind of replayability.  But, it remains less useful to me than separate adventures.  Separate adventures would have separate maps, which is a big part of the benefit I get out of adventures.


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 23, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> What I read led me to believe you could run the adventure four times, with different adversaries and end boss each time.
> 
> So...replayable.



That's boring.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

"Vedalken Traits
Your vedalken character has certain 
characteristics in common with all other 
vedalken.
Ability Score Increase. Your Intelli-
gence score increases by 2 and your Wis-
dom score increases by 1.
Age. Vedalken mature at the same 
rate humans do, and most are expected to 
settle down into an adult life by around 
age 40. They can live 350 to almost 500 
years.
Alignment. Vedalken are most often 
lawful and rarely evil. 
Size. Vedalken are taller than humans 
but more slender. They average 6 to 6½ 
feet tall, but usually weigh less than 200 
pounds. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 
feet.
Vedalken Cunning. You have ad-
vantage on all Intelligence, Wisdom, and 
Charisma saving throws against magic.
Aether Lore. Whenever you make 
an Intelligence (History) check related to 
magic items or aether-powered techno-
logical devices, you can add twice your 
proficiency bonus, instead of any profi-
ciency bonus you normally apply.
Languages. You can speak, read, 
and write Common and Vedalken. The 
Vedalken language is renowned for its 
technical treatises and its catalogs of 
knowledge about the natural world and 
the aether that pervades it."

 From one of the planeshift articles put out by WotC, so unless they radically change it, we have one of the Ravnica races stats already. 

 It seems weak, good at identifying magic items and has advantage against magic spells that target Intelligence/Charisma/Wisdom. I hope it gets buffed abit. Maybe a free ritual caster feat or the mending cantrip.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> But, for example, if they go to Athas as a plane for a future Magic the Gathering card set, wouldn't the MtG fans be justified in being irked the set when to Dark Sun rather than returning to Amonkhet?




 I don't think that MtG has any setting like FR,  so focus on that at first.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> But, for example, if they go to Athas as a plane for a future Magic the Gathering card set, wouldn't the MtG fans be justified in being irked the set when to Dark Sun rather than returning to Amonkhet?




On one hand, "justified" is a strong word. Secondly, based on what I'm seeing, the reaction from the Magic community would be "Oh, that's cool!" not "DISAPPOINTED!!!!1"


----------



## ChapolimX (Jul 23, 2018)

I'm annoyed by this, not because I hate new things, but because I'm being told that I can't get a 5e hardcover for my favorite campaign settings as that would cause some sort of mystical fracture in the player base which would lead D&D  to bankruptcy.


----------



## SkidAce (Jul 23, 2018)

ChapolimX said:


> I'm annoyed by this, not because I hate new things, but because I'm being told that I can't get a 5e hardcover for my favorite campaign settings as that would cause some sort of mystical fracture in the player base which would lead D&D  to bankruptcy.




Yeah, I see your point.

That argument won't be valid any more I reckon.


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 23, 2018)

MechaPilot said:


> That's definitely better than not having that kind of replayability.  But, it remains less useful to me than separate adventures.  Separate adventures would have separate maps, which is a big part of the benefit I get out of adventures.



The problem is, it's the same adventure.  There is a reason to play it once, but if you're planning on replaying it, have everyone make different characters and use a different DM.  The rewards are great, the adventure is, blah.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

"Merfolk Traits
Your merfolk character has a number of traits in com-
mon with other members of this race.
Ability Score Increase. Your Charisma score in-
creases by 1.
Age. Merfolk mature at the same rate humans do 
and reach adulthood around the age of 20. They live 
considerably longer than humans, though, often reach-
ing well over 100 years.
Alignment. Most merfolk are neutral, though merfolk 
of the Emeria and Cosi creeds have chaotic leanings.
Size. Merfolk are about the same size and build as 
humans. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet. You 
also have a swimming speed of 30 feet.
Amphibious. You can breathe air and water.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Com-
mon, Merfolk, and one extra language of your choice.
Creeds. The merfolk race is divided into three 
creeds, founded on the principles of Emeria (wind), Ula 
(water), and Cosi (the trickster). A merfolk isn’t born 
into a creed but chooses it upon reaching adulthood, and 
it is rare for a merfolk not to choose a creed. Merfolk of 
the wind and water creeds aren’t hostile to each other, 
but members of each creed regard the other creed with 
a vague disdain. Members of both those creeds regard 
the Cosi creed with suspicion and some degree of fear, 
and Cosi-creed adherents tend to keep their affiliation 
secret. Choose one of these creeds for your character.
Emeria (Wind) Creed
Merfolk who followed Emeria’s creed seek wisdom 
and truth in the Wind Realm, exploring the mystical 
forces—rather than natural causes—behind historical 
events. They are evasive and intentionally enigmatic 
in their interactions with others, and are often de-
scribed as manipulative and deceptive.
Ability Score Increase. Your Wisdom score in-
creases by 2.
Wind Creed Manipulation. You have proficiency 
in the Deception and Persuasion skills.
Cantrip. You know one cantrip of your choice 
from the druid spell list. Wisdom is your spellcasting 
ability for it.
Ula (Water) Creed
Ula-creed merfolk emphasize intellectual pursuits, 
stressing hard evidence and reason over passion. They 
are analytical scholars, chroniclers, explorers, and 
navigators who pride themselves on being blunt and 
straightforward.
Ability Score Increase. Your Intelligence score 
increases by 2.
Water Creed Navigation. You have proficiency 
with navigator’s tools and in the Survival skill.
Cantrip. You know one cantrip of your choice 
from the wizard spell list. Intelligence is your spell-
casting ability for it.
Cosi Creed
No merfolk will openly admit to following the creed 
of the trickster, but those who do view Cosi as an ally 
who can grant them control over the chaotic forces of 
the world.
Ability Score Increase. Your Charisma score 
increases by an additional 1 (for a total of 2), and your 
Intelligence score increases by 1.
Creed of the Trickster. You have proficiency in the 
Sleight of Hand and Stealth skills.
Cantrip. You know one cantrip of your choice 
from the bard spell list. Charisma is your spellcasting 
ability for it."

 "Vampire Traits
Your vampire character has the following traits as a 
result of the unique origins of your kind. 
Ability Score Increase. Your Intelligence score 
increases by 1, and your Charisma score increases by 2.
Age. Vampires don’t mature and age in the same 
way that other races do. Every living vampire is either a 
bloodchief, infected by Ulamog’s influence in the distant 
reaches of history, or was spawned by a bloodchief from 
a living human. Most vampires are thus very old, but few 
have any memory of their earliest years.
Alignment. Vampires have no innate tendency 
toward evil, but consuming the life energy of other 
creatures often pushes them to that end. Regardless of 
their moral bent, the strict hierarchies of their blood-
chiefs inclines them toward a lawful alignment.
Size. Vampires are about the same size and build 
as humans. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision. Thanks to your heritage, you have su-
perior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see 
in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright 
light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t 
discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Vampiric Resistance. You have resistance to ne-
crotic damage.
Blood Thirst. You can drain blood and life ener-
gy from a willing creature, or one that is grappled by 
you, incapacitated, or restrained. Make a melee attack 
against the target. If you hit, you deal 1 piercing dam-
age and 1d6 necrotic damage. The target’s hit point 
maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the ne-
crotic damage taken, and you regain hit points equal to 
that amount. The reduction lasts until the target finish-
es a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its 
hit point maximum to 0. A humanoid killed in this way 
becomes a null (see “A Zendikar Bestiary”).
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Com-
mon and Vampire."

 Merfolk stats from another Planeshift article from WotC, I think it's very possible we will see reprints of these as well.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Jul 23, 2018)

If this is actually something that is confirmed to be true, in that's it's a campaign setting based on one of the M:TG worlds (I would have gone with the one that has all those floating crystals), I would still look into such a book for ideas and content to use.

More than 20 years ago I know we certainly speculated they'd try something like trying to get M:TG into D&D, but it never happened.  But I think back then it was just Dominaria which didn't seem to be that different from other typical fantasy worlds, so there probably was a reason why they never tried.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 23, 2018)

MechaPilot said:


> That's definitely better than not having that kind of replayability.  But, it remains less useful to me than separate adventures.  Separate adventures would have separate maps, which is a big part of the benefit I get out of adventures.




The book outlines 9 wards/bouroughs/districts in detail, creating a large sandbox. The multi-valiant adventure proper seems to be less important than creating a setting a DM can use, City State of the Invincible Overlord style: the adventure just provides a MacGuffin and four antagonist organizations within the sandbox.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> "Vedalken Traits
> Your vedalken character has certain
> characteristics in common with all other
> vedalken.
> ...




Considering those articles were unplaytested Homebrew, I would expect radical change from Crawford's editing.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

"InGreen Merfolk. These ones prefer living on the land and enjoy the sun. I can’t blame them.

Ability Score Increase. A +2 to Wisdom. Nothing to see here.Mask of the Wild. That’s the Wood Elf racial trait. Perhaps their coloring allows them to do that.Cantrip. You get one Druid cantrip of your choice, with Wisdom being the spellcasting ability for it.

Blue Merfolk. The blue Merfolk prefer staying in the rivers and the sea.

Ability Score Increase. A +2 to Intelligence.Lore of the Waters. Proficiency in History and Nature. I like skill proficiencies in general so I like this feature too. Plus, these are Intelligence skills so they do well with the Ability Score Increase.Cantrip. You get one Wizard cantrip of your choice, with Intelligence being the spellcasting ability for it."

 "Vampire

The vampires of Ixalan have very interesting lore. They are humans that become vampires through a ritual.

Ability Score Increase. Like with Plane Shift: Zendikar, vampires get +2 to Charisma. These ones also get +1 to Wisdom instead of Intelligence.Size. Vampires are considered medium. Well, they were humans before so it makes sense.Speed. Base walking speed of 30 feet.Darkvision up to 60 feet.Vampiric Resistance. Resistance to necrotic damage like the Zendikar vampires.Bloodthirst. You have a bite attack that heals a little bit. Its requirements make sure it’s not broken.Feast of Blood. It’s a buff you get when you use Bloodthirst. For 1 minute your speed increased by 10 feet and you gain advantage on Strength and Dexterity saving throws.

There’s also a Vampire feat called Vampiric Exultation. Using an action you can turn your lower half of your body into black vapor and get a flying speed of 30 feet for 10 minutes. It recharges every short or long rest. It’s not a bad deal."

 That is from the planeshift Ixalan article,  and I think it's the one they are more likely to go with,  the Vampires being like the Vryloka,  created by rituals.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Considering those articles we're unplautested Homebrew, I would expect radical change from Crawford's editing.




 That is a distinct possibility.


----------



## thundershot (Jul 23, 2018)

Happy for those that want it... but I was looking forward to two returning settings. Now my chance at Spelljammer gets lower...


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> "Merfolk Traits
> Your merfolk character has a number of traits in com-
> mon with other members of this race.
> Ability Score Increase. Your Charisma score in-
> ...



Merfolk are not in the book, and neither are this version of vampire


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> The book outlines 9 wards/bouroughs/districts in detail, creating a large sandbox. The multi-valiant adventure proper seems to be less important than creating a setting a DM can use, City State of the Invincible Overlord style: the adventure just provides a MacGuffin and four antagonist organizations within the sandbox.




 The adventure is basically early level prep and home city for the second half, Dungeon of the Mad Mage, which goes all the way to twenty.


----------



## Dungeonosophy (Jul 23, 2018)

C'mon WotC. Are you purposely trying to irritate and divide the D&D fanbase?

Just do this:

1) Release a _Manual of the Planes _hardcover which includes a chapter on each of the classic D&D Worlds (Oerth, Mystara, Eberron, Abeir, Nerath, etc). Cover Planescape and Spelljammer (and Chronomancer) as combined meta-setting the same time.
2) Open all the D&D worlds to DM's Guild in one go.
3) If you want to cross-promote M:tG, then you'd better first (or simultaneously) satiate the desire for the classic D&D worlds! At least mention in the _Manual of the Planes_ that the D&D Multiverse is beginning to overlap with the with M:tG Multiverse.
4) *Then* release M:tG planar D&D sourcebooks. Staggered with classic D&D worldbooks (Oerth, Mystara, Athas, Eberron, etc). If you do both at the same time, then classic aficionados won't be irked.

As it stands, the day-early leak about Ravnica is arousing some ill-will and divisiveness. "Divisiveness": because it would be "cool" to see more and more D&D M:tG books...but not at the expense of Classic D&D worlds. C'mon.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jul 23, 2018)

Having done a lot of research into Ravnica way back when I was writing _Agents of Artifice_, I have to say that it could make a fascinating D&D setting. This isn't anything I saw coming, and might not have been my first choice, but I don't think it's a bad thing, and it could be amazingly cool.

As for people wondering about working Planeswalker or "color magic" mechanics into the book... Why? I mean, maybe they're going to, but it's not remotely necessary. It is certainly possible--and I very much hope--that this is "Ravnica as D&D setting," as opposed to "Magic: the Gathering in D&D." If that's so, it would be about building the setting so it's thematically the same, but mechanically works around D&D rules, not M:tG rules.

If that's what they've chosen to do, I'd buy this in a heartbeat, for all that I might have preferred something else.


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> The adventure is basically early level prep and home city for the second half, Dungeon of the Mad Mage, which goes all the way to twenty.



Pretty much.  But if the maps and lore is enough to create your own adventures in Waterdeep, then it'll be worth buying for DMs.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jul 23, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> I expect we'll see more than that. I'd put it up to a friendly wager, but seeing how you were adamant the "4th D&D book in 2018" was either the art book OR the coloring book, it might be in your best interest to decline to wager on this.




Actually, he was at first adamant there was definitively _not_ going to be a "fourth book", then backtracked to the art book and/or coloring book. Now that that "fourth book" has been pretty conclusively shown to be a reality today, you would think he'd back off the absolute statements, especially since the evidence for something besides Ravnica being announced tomorrow is far more concrete than what we had for the "fourth book" previously. At the very least out of the risk of being potentially proved wrong two days in a row.


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 23, 2018)

Polyhedral Columbia said:


> C'mon WotC. Are you purposely trying to irritate and divide the D&D fanbase?
> 
> Just do this:
> 
> ...



I am pretty sure, they are not going to release most of the previous settings into this edition.  We are what 4 years in now?  They have barely expanded past the Sword coast and Moon Sea.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> On one hand, "justified" is a strong word. Secondly, based on what I'm seeing, the reaction from the Magic community would be "Oh, that's cool!" not "DISAPPOINTED!!!!1"



That doesn’t sound like the Magic community I’ve read about...

While I started as closer to “meh” and “slightly dissapointed”, the more I talk about it on ENworld and get told I’m wrong for not being excited, the more I get grumpy, actually “DISAPPOINTED!!!!1”, and just plain frustrated to the point of having a stress headache.


----------



## DMZ2112 (Jul 23, 2018)

neogod22 said:


> I am pretty sure, they are not going to release most of the previous settings into this edition.  We are what 4 years in now?  They have barely expanded past the Sword coast and Moon Sea.




They're on record saying they're planning to support /all/ of the previously published D&D settings in D&D5, they just need to be "careful" about it to avoid splitting the fanbase.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/881717018482712576?lang=en

Of course, they are also on record saying they wouldn't introduce any new settings to D&D5 until they'd supported the previously published settings, so take from that what you will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPMSdqsA7AM&feature=youtu.be&t=1h21m53s

I'm reserving judgment until tomorrow, but it's hard.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 23, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Actually, he was at first adamant there was definitively _not_ going to be a "fourth book", then backtracked to the art book and/or coloring book. Now that that "fourth book" has been pretty conclusively shown to be a reality today, you would think he'd back off the absolute statements, especially since the evidence for something besides Ravnica being announced tomorrow is far more concrete than what we had for the "fourth book" previously. At the very least out of the risk of being potentially proved wrong two days in a row.



Oh no, I was wrong. My poor fragile ego. I have never been wrong before. 

Oh wait, I’m wrong all the time. Because I’m human and fallible. 
But that doesn’t mean I’m always going to be wrong. Or that I’m going to withdraw and run away from the conversation out of the fear that I could be wrong again.

If I was afraid of saying something that was wrong, I’d never be able to say anything.


----------



## Greg K (Jul 23, 2018)

Thank you WOTC people for continuing to encourage me to look elsewhere to spend my money.  I think that I will pick up Bash Fantasy or purchase one of the following non-fantasy games from Precis Intermedia: EarthAD.2, Coyote Trail, or Hard Nova.

In the meantime, I think that I will also hold off on some additonial DM Guild purchases and try to line up a game of Barbarians of Lemuria, Earthdawn 1e, Warhammer 1e, or Cortex Plus Heroic to meet my current fantasy itch!


----------



## Xaelvaen (Jul 23, 2018)

I'm tentative, but I'll give it /half/ a chance - meaning, I'll buy this on DnD Beyond should it be the next campaign, but not in Hardcover.  I don't know much about the lore of MtG anything (though I played it back in the 90s), but willing to find out through DnD - so a nice digital discount sounds like the right price.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> That doesn’t sound like the Magic community I’ve read about...
> 
> While I started as closer to “meh” and “slightly dissapointed”, the more I talk about it on ENworld and get told I’m wrong for not being excited, the more I get grumpy, actually “DISAPPOINTED!!!!1”, and just plain frustrated to the point of having a stress headache.




Maybe take a break until something more solid is announced? At this point, we don't know what is coming.


----------



## neobolts (Jul 23, 2018)

1) I do not think this will not be the only new setting announced in the next 12 months.  Everything else points towards older D&D settings as well. 

2) James Wyatt will likely be at the helm if the Ravinica book and has my full confidence. 

3) Ravinica is a nifty setting that deserves a chance. It can hold its own against Sigil or Sharn and doesn't deserve to be dismissed out of hand bc of the MTG association that does not appeal to some. I'm a 90s teen with fond memories of both 2e D&D and the early days of MTG. I'm definitely part of the target  demographic for this title.


----------



## cbwjm (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> That doesn’t sound like the Magic community I’ve read about...
> 
> While I started as closer to “meh” and “slightly dissapointed”, the more I talk about it on ENworld and get told I’m wrong for not being excited, the more I get grumpy, actually “DISAPPOINTED!!!!1”, and just plain frustrated to the point of having a stress headache.




Yeah, it's like any community really, there is always at least a small portion of that community which is made up of horrible people. MtG and DnD are no exception there.


----------



## Azzy (Jul 23, 2018)

Greg K said:


> Thank you WOTC people for continuing to encourage me to look elsewhere to spend my money.  I think that I will pick up Bash Fantasy or purchase one of the following non-fantasy games from Precis Intermedia: EarthAD.2, Coyote Trail, or Hard Nova.
> 
> In the meantime, I think that I will also hold off on some additonial DM Guild purchases and try to line up a game of Barbarians of Lemuria, Earthdawn 1e, Warhammer 1e, or Cortex Plus Heroic to meet my current fantasy itch!




Such drama!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 23, 2018)

I have realized something about the product images for these. They all have "Ages 12+" on them. No other 5E product has that on the cover.


----------



## Kite474 (Jul 23, 2018)

I do wonder if this will include new subclasses and the like

I need to get my murder circus freak on legitly 

Or my sky police freak on

Or my lawmage freak on

Or my rotfarmer reak on

Or my...





Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I have realized something about the product images for these. They all have "Ages 12+" on them. No other 5E product has that on the cover.




Most likey do to some of the contents of Ravnica. One of the big factions is literally a murder circus.  and another will literally work you till your dead and then until your very soul wears out.


----------



## robus (Jul 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Considering those articles were unplaytested Homebrew, I would expect radical change from Crawford's editing.




I think you mean Wyatt, but the point remains.

Edit: wait reverse that. You meant Crawford’s editing of Wyatt’s proposal. Carry on


----------



## Saplatt (Jul 23, 2018)

Not my favorite MTG setting, but could be interesting.


----------



## robus (Jul 23, 2018)

Mouseferatu said:


> Having done a lot of research into Ravnica way back when I was writing _Agents of Artifice_, I have to say that it could make a fascinating D&D setting. This isn't anything I saw coming, and might not have been my first choice, but I don't think it's a bad thing, and it could be amazingly cool.
> 
> As for people wondering about working Planeswalker or "color magic" mechanics into the book... Why? I mean, maybe they're going to, but it's not remotely necessary. It is certainly possible--and I very much hope--that this is "Ravnica as D&D setting," as opposed to "Magic: the Gathering in D&D." If that's so, it would be about building the setting so it's thematically the same, but mechanically works around D&D rules, not M:tG rules.
> 
> If that's what they've chosen to do, I'd buy this in a heartbeat, for all that I might have preferred something else.




Exactly. This is “experience Ravnica in a whole new way”!


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 23, 2018)

robus said:


> I think you mean Wyatt, but the point remains.
> 
> Edit: wait reverse that. You meant Crawford’s editing of Wyatt’s proposal. Carry on




Yeah, Crawford is the rules editing overlord, so Wyatt's off the clock Homebrew has not likely made it through unchanged. Ineed, one of the big UA articles this year was cowrittwn by them, assuredly for this product.


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Maybe take a break until something more solid is announced? At this point, we don't know what is coming.



I know for a fact that this is the next book.  Of course I couldn't say anything until it was announced, but barring pictures and any changes they've made. I've read the book already.  If I were going to spend my money on this or Dragon Heist,  it would be this.  My name will be in both books, so I will probably pick both up.


----------



## vpuigdoller (Jul 23, 2018)

Some ppl are reporting Eberron is showing as an option to publish material in the dmsguild.  Can someone confirm?


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 23, 2018)

neogod22 said:


> I know for a fact that this is the next book.  Of course I couldn't say anything until it was announced, but barring pictures and any changes they've made. I've read the book already.  If I were going to spend my money on this or Dragon Heist,  it would be this.  My name will be in both books, so I will probably pick both up.




You may know what is in this book, but that does not speak as to whether there is other setting support on the way.


----------



## Xavian Starsider (Jul 23, 2018)

Magus Darkwind said:


> While I'm not against using D&D to fill out M:tG settings (Ravnica sounds interesting!), shouldn't they be concentrating on other D&D settings first?




Why? They haven't even done a campaign setting for the Realms. You know why?  Because we have campaign guides for it and so many others already. The fluff is just as fluffy as before. If they are going to do a setting guide, why not give us something we don't have 2-4 previous versions of?


----------



## Twiggly the Gnome (Jul 23, 2018)

vpuigdoller said:


> Some ppl are reporting Eberron is showing as an option to publish material in the dmsguild.  Can someone confirm?




Just checked. It's there!


----------



## neogod22 (Jul 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> You may know what is in this book, but that does not speak as to whether there is other setting support on the way.



This is the 3rd book announced for this year to come out, not to mention MToF which already came out.  They have been busy.  What's coming out next year is anyone's guess as of now, but there will probably be another player supplement in the spring, a new campaign in the spring and one in the fall.  This has pretty much been their formula.  While they are making player supplements world neutral, the campaigns for the most part have been in the FR setting with AL mirroring the current campaign.  Any new setting they come out with, will probably be a one off book around the same timeframe as this one.  They may bring one out next summer also, but I don't see them interfering with the living world of FR.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jul 23, 2018)

Xavian Starsider said:


> Why? They haven't even done a campaign setting for the Realms. You know why?  Because we have campaign guides for it and so many others already. The fluff is just as fluffy as before. If they are going to do a setting guide, why not give us something we don't have 2-4 previous versions of?




That's true for Eberron, and to a point Greyhawk, but for the Realms, the fluff's been torn apart, aged, and put back together in a form we're not quite sure of since the last time we saw it (and twice for all those from the last time we saw it in detail).


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jul 23, 2018)

Twiggly the Gnome said:


> Just checked. It's there!




Same here!

The question is now whether it's going to just be DMs Guild and PDF support for Eberron, or whether there's going to be an actual published book (presumably in the style of the Ravnica book) also announced (presumably for next year).


----------



## Ratskinner (Jul 23, 2018)

Mouseferatu said:


> As for people wondering about working Planeswalker or "color magic" mechanics into the book... Why? I mean, maybe they're going to, but it's not remotely necessary. It is certainly possible--and I very much hope--that this is "Ravnica as D&D setting," as opposed to "Magic: the Gathering in D&D." If that's so, it would be about building the setting so it's thematically the same, but mechanically works around D&D rules, not M:tG rules.
> 
> If that's what they've chosen to do, I'd buy this in a heartbeat, for all that I might have preferred something else.




There was a discussion about MtG magic and D&D awhile back. After careful consideration, I think color should replace/modify alignment. 

In this case, you might go one further and have guild replace alignment. 

I must also add that I can't comprehend the resent about a new setting. Just makes no sense at all to me. Is way rather have a new thing than an old one rehashed, especially with the old ones on off.


----------



## Ancalagon (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> There's no way they're doing a _fifth_ hardcover this year, let alone three books in a single month. Anything else is going to be small PDFs, likely adventures, or a half-tested Unearthed Arcana.




You may be correct.  Or not.  No need to get upset *in advance* - plenty of time for that later.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

Ratskinner said:


> There was a discussion about MtG magic and D&D awhile back. After careful consideration, I think color should replace/modify alignment.
> 
> In this case, you might go one further and have guild replace alignment.



You make two very good points. Color is very much like Magic's equivalent of alignment - although it seems probable that it would have more mechanical implications than WotC has been trying to give alignment lately. But also, now that I think about it, wasn't the in-universe understanding of the colors in Ravnica kind of weak because it was distorted by the guild system? I wouldn't have the guilds _replace_ alignment - they're more like factions, being actual concrete organizations - but they certainly replace how Ravnicans might _think_ about alignment, if I'm recalling correctly.


----------



## Ancalagon (Jul 23, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Same here!
> 
> The question is now whether it's going to just be DMs Guild and PDF support for Eberron, or whether there's going to be an actual published book (presumably in the style of the Ravnica book) also announced (presumably for next year).




Yup.  We'll know soon enough.


Oh and one more thing on the getting disappointed etc.  We knew that they were going to release 2-3 settings.  The odds of *all* of them being settings you liked/wanted/are intrigued are... low. It's almost certain to have at least one being "meh".   Honestly, if 1/3 is one you really like, I would call that a win.

(note:  this is "generic you", not anyone in particular)


----------



## Charlaquin (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> You make two very good points. Color is very much like Magic's equivalent of alignment - although it seems probable that it would have more mechanical implications than WotC has been trying to give alignment lately. But also, now that I think about it, wasn't the in-universe understanding of the colors in Ravnica kind of weak because it was distorted by the guild system? I wouldn't have the guilds _replace_ alignment - they're more like factions, being actual concrete organizations - but they certainly replace how Ravnicans might _think_ about alignment, if I'm recalling correctly.



I think it might be the other way around - a character’s alignment would impact their opinions of the guilds. For example, you probably don’t see a lot of Chaotic Azorius members, or Lawful Gruul. Evil characters are probably drawn more towards Rakdos  than Selesnya, and Good characters more towards Boros than Dimir.

Now, I’m not especially knowledgeable about Ravniva lore, particularly after Return to Ravnica. But at least in the original block, House Dimir was was considered by most of the Ravnican public to be a myth or unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. So that would make 9 publicly recognized guilds and 9 alignments, with Dimir as an unknown quantity (just the way they like it)

What would the best firs be? I’m thinking...
Boros: Lawful Good
Selesnya: Neutral Good
Gruul: Chaotic Good
Azorius: Lawful Neutral
Simic: Neutral
Izzet: Chaotic Neutral
Orzhov: Lawful Evil
Golgari: Neutral Evil
Rakdos: Chaotic Evil


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jul 23, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> Yup.  We'll know soon enough.
> 
> 
> Oh and one more thing on the getting disappointed etc.  We knew that they were going to release 2-3 settings.  The odds of *all* of them being settings you liked/wanted/are intrigued are... low. It's almost certain to have at least one being "meh".   Honestly, if 1/3 is one you really like, I would call that a win.
> ...




(Knowing that I'm not the specific "you", but still responding anyway  )

It now appears we'll be seeing Eberron in some fashion, and although that's not on my 1st tier of settings I'd like to see (Planescape or Greyhawk would be above Eberron for me, let alone an actual full update of the Forgotten Realms, although I can live with the steady drip-drip of updates we're getting with the current set-up), I'm honestly more than happy for those for whom it is the first choice, and am intrigued to see how it gets updated.


----------



## Mercurius (Jul 23, 2018)

So...WotC introduces a new setting to D&D for the first time in 11 years and people are disappointed because it isn't their favorite previously published (multiple times) setting of choice. 

To boot, we don't know with any degree of certainty what other setting support might be coming out, except something for two classics.

I don't know if I'll like Ravnica or not, but I am very happy they're publishing something new.


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

Charlaquin said:


> Now, I’m not especially knowledgeable about Ravniva lore, particularly after Return to Ravnica. But at least in the original block, House Dimir was was considered by most of the Ravnican public to be a myth or unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. So that would make 9 publicly recognized guilds and 9 alignments, with Dimir as an unknown quantity (just the way they like it)



 Yeah, that's right. Ravnicans didn't know about the colors partially because it would give away that there were ten guilds rather than nine.



Charlaquin said:


> What would the best firs be? I’m thinking...
> Boros: Lawful Good
> Selesnya: Neutral Good
> Gruul: Chaotic Good
> ...



Gruul as chaotic good is kind of a stretch. I also hesitate to attach the label "lawful" to anything red.


----------



## Charlaquin (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Gruul as chaotic good is kind of a stretch. I also hesitate to attach the label "lawful" to anything red.




It is. They’re probably more Chaotic Neutral, but I don’t really see any other guild fitting Chaotic Good any better. Boros is absolutely Lawful though. They’re Ravnica’s military and law enforcement. They combine white’s structure with red’s passion.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Except the senior director has trolled the fans repeatedly with suggestions of classic settings:
> https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1014196339368812544?s=20
> https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/1016444525886128128?s=20
> 
> ...




The whole point of trolling is that people take what you say seriously (and yeah, I may be speaking from experience).

If someone tells you they are they are trolling, they are telling you not to take what they are saying seriously, and therefore they are not trolling. It's basically another way of saying "every statement I make is a lie, including this one".

So yes, lots of classical settings where mentioned - far too many for them all to be true, even if you missed the "trolling" and "not what you expect" posts. They are called Red Herrings. As long as the truth is in there somewhere, and it was, it is perfectly legitimate. Otherwise Agatha Christie wouldn't be the world's best selling novelist.


----------



## Jhaelen (Jul 23, 2018)

I suppose this means there won't be a free Plane Shift article about Ravnica? :-(

I have to admit I prefer any new setting over a rehash of any of the existing ones.

I already have plenty of background material for all D&D settings I've ever been interested in.


----------



## Staccat0 (Jul 23, 2018)

Eltab said:


> I suppose the question is: Given a planet-wide city, how is this different from *Trantor* (Azimov's _Foundation_ series) and *Coruscant* (_Star Wars_ capital world)?




That’s sort of an odd question considering the possible variance between multiple medieval fantasy settings. I’m assuming it’s so different from the ones mentioned that it would be sort of tedious to discuss haha.


----------



## The Grassy Gnoll (Jul 23, 2018)

I know zero about m:tg and therefore just as much about Ravnica.
But, put yourself in the shoes of Wizards.
Any classic setting they produce will result in people who wanted a different one being upset, and probably those that wanted the one they put out being upset because it’s not exactly the same. For new players (of which I gather there are many, 5e being a huge onboarding success), they won’t care. They’ll be excited and then see on any forums a bunch of in-my-dayism and feel negativity.
So why not come out with something new?
Everyone is on the same page then. Anyone who plays m:tg will be happy to see a crossover. I don’t know what the numbers are for players of each game but one presumes they’ve done the maths and found the Venn diagram has a bigger (possibly younger also?) m:tg circle. They already own the IP and it’s probably easier to convert than completely start afresh, so...no brainer, surely?
FWIW, knowing nothing, the cover is intriguing to me. Science/tech/magic feel. Seems quite interesting.
I know nothing again about Eberron or Sigil (I should change my username to Jon Snurr), but from little I have acquired en passant, there are thematic/stylistic elements that provide a certain crossover in Ravnica (steampunkish nexus hive of scum and villainy), so perhaps they hope to provide some of these touchstones?
I dunno. I love the idea of something new, and didn’t they put out an UA a while ago with m:tg races? I seem to recall it being quite flavourful. 
TL;DR: ooh shiny.


----------



## delericho (Jul 23, 2018)

I believe this is real.

I have no interest in this product. But that's fine - WotC aren't in the business of producing books for _me_; they're in the business of producing the products they think will sell. Good luck to them.

That said, if they do announce a product that hybridizes Planescape and Spelljammer, _that_ would piss me off. Those are two strongly-flavoured settings that each have their places and have their fans, but which really shouldn't be mixed - like putting fish sauce on cherry ice cream.

(On the other hand, opening Eberron to the DM's Guild is _really_ good news, IMO. And if there's a book of some sort to go with it, even better!)


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 23, 2018)

Is it just me who is expecting a new version of Artificer to appear as UA very soon?


----------



## Coroc (Jul 23, 2018)

If this is real, in a way i am quite glad they did not rehash a classic setting. 
Otherwise it would be like remakes of old movies. It is rare, that a remake these days is more than adding advanced CGI effects. 
CGI effects transferred to pen and paper RPG is like modifying the picture in your mind. And adding flashy effects (dragoncelestialninjapiratehobbitkender on Athas e.g.  )  seems to be the thing today (see everything they implemented in FR), and i do not want them in the picture in my mind of these settings and i do not want my Players getting this Pictures but rather the original tone which is good and diverse enough.

What i still eagerly expect, is some hint on converting special game mechanics, psionics, defiling, dragonlances, dragonmarks e.g., and maybe some of the more complicated racial conversions (halfgiant / thrikreen). But i would not hope to much on these topics either, because someone playing Darksun or Greyhawk would not necessarily buy dragonheist, so for marketing reasons i can understand why they did not yet publish these  things.

Otoh it would be nice of them communicating something like: we definetely will not publish anything on setting x, so you would know that if you are to Play this you Need to make your homebrew rules.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

Mouseferatu said:


> Having done a lot of research into Ravnica way back when I was writing _Agents of Artifice_, I have to say that it could make a fascinating D&D setting. This isn't anything I saw coming, and might not have been my first choice, but I don't think it's a bad thing, and it could be amazingly cool.
> 
> As for people wondering about working Planeswalker or "color magic" mechanics into the book... Why? I mean, maybe they're going to, but it's not remotely necessary. It is certainly possible--and I very much hope--that this is "Ravnica as D&D setting," as opposed to "Magic: the Gathering in D&D." If that's so, it would be about building the setting so it's thematically the same, but mechanically works around D&D rules, not M:tG rules.
> 
> If that's what they've chosen to do, I'd buy this in a heartbeat, for all that I might have preferred something else.




 I hope your right,  it would help Ravnica fit within the D&D universe a lot easier, because MtG and D&D have very different cosmologies from each other, so if Ravnica's world D&D is a Crystal Sphere like Toril,  then fitting into D&D is easy. If instead it's part of a separate cosmology,  then things get more difficult.


----------



## BMaC (Jul 23, 2018)

So Nathan Stewart was just being a jerk when he tweeted the "...mmer" teaser.  I'm happy for the fans of Eberron at least.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

delericho said:


> That said, if they do announce a product that hybridizes Planescape and Spelljammer, _that_ would piss me off.



Baldur's Gate.


----------



## cbwjm (Jul 23, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Is it just me who is expecting a new version of Artificer to appear as UA very soon?



From memory, Mearls mentioned in happy fun hour that the artifcer was in the process of being revised so probably.


----------



## TheIdeaOfGood (Jul 23, 2018)

Seems I am not the only one who's excited at this. If this is true, I'd be very very happy. I love M:tG and I loved Ravnica. The idea of a planetwide city in a fantasy setting...I fell in love with it immediately when it came out. To be able to play there...if this is real, great move, WOTC. You got my money for sure!


----------



## delericho (Jul 23, 2018)

BMaC said:


> So Nathan Stewart was just being a jerk when he tweeted the "...mmer" teaser.  I'm happy for the fans of Eberron at least.




I believe that that was very quickly clarified as being "Summer".



TheCosmicKid said:


> Baldur's Gate.




I'm sorry, I don't understand this reference. Could you clarify?


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

delericho said:


> I'm sorry, I don't understand this reference. Could you clarify?



The Baldur's Gate games freely incorporated elements of both Planescape and Spelljammer whenever the topic of the planes came up. Perhaps most notably, Minsc's animal companion.


----------



## delericho (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> The Baldur's Gate games freely incorporated elements of both Planescape and Spelljammer whenever the topic of the planes came up. Perhaps most notably, Minsc's animal companion.




Ah, I see.

But that's not what I mean by hybridizing the two. Those two settings have always both been part of the D&D cosmology, as _different_ ways of getting around. ('Always' since they were introduced, anyway.  ) It would be unusual, but not entirely unheard of, for characters to have made use of both at times, and so could certainly encounter elements of each.

That's fine. What I would object to is them turning them into _the same_ way of getting around - having Spelljammers flying around in the Astral Sea rather then Wildspace, using Spelljammers for planar travel, and (in particular) ditching Crystal Spheres and the Phlogiston.


----------



## Aguirre Melchiors (Jul 23, 2018)

well this was boring, sorry!
i dont like when D&D start spamming books, feels like end of 3.5
even the regular books already have reprinted material and 17 pages of names.
i would like less books  and better material


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## TheIdeaOfGood (Jul 23, 2018)

I get these reseverations, but this is nowhere near the level 3.5. went to. 
Plus...I actually liked the name pages in Xanathars and they have helped me a great deal as did they help my players.


----------



## Eirikrautha (Jul 23, 2018)

It's always turned out well for D&D when corporate decided to leverage the brand to create crossover fans, or am I the only person here old enough to remember Buck Rodgers?

I don't know when the "settings" info was teased, but I hope the other two "settings" for grognards weren't supposed to be Waterdeep and Undermountain.  Everyone seems to be assuming that "settings" means "planes of existence" or something.


----------



## Echohawk (Jul 23, 2018)

Aguirre Melchiors said:


> i dont like when D&D start spamming books, feels like end of 3.5



The only type of product in the 5th Edition cycle that could be reasonably called spammy compared to previous editions is DM's screens. We've had ten -- count 'em, ten -- different screens for D&D Next and 5th Edition since 2013. But books? For books, the 5th Edition release rate is more "hurry up already" than "spammy".


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 23, 2018)

Good for them; hard pass from me.


----------



## Slade Thirteen (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> This is very likely the first 5e book I will skip.
> Super disappointed. There's so many settings they're not supporting, and so much of the D&D multiverse lying fallow, and they go with a setting from another game?! C'mon!
> 
> I get the thought behind it.
> ...




I understand your frustration... But I have to disagree on the point of 'real vs potential'. They have been making Plane modules for 3 years now. We have: Zendikar, Innistrad, Kaladesh, Amonkhet, and Ixalan. They are under the title "Plane Shift". This will be their first full book, true, but there IS a real audience already. Sure, you specifically might not feel apart of it, but there is real interest.

And Ravnica is a HUGE setting. And I don't mean lore wise (though there is a -lot- to mine there), I mean that of all the Planes that MtG returns to, the absolute most popular is Ravnica. (Dominaria, Zendikar, and Innistrad being a few others that trail just behind). Make no mistake, this is going to sell, especially if what's inside is worth it.

Not saying you have to be excited, I'm merely correcting the single point. I do understand the frustration of not getting more of what you were looking forward too. Hopefully news comes that has more of that for you in the very near future.

{edit} just noticed that your comment was near the start of 14 pages of discussion... and yeah, 14 is TL;DR territory. So if this was pointed out already, I apologize.


----------



## Aldarc (Jul 23, 2018)

Has no one noted one of the similarities between Ravnica, Eberron, and Planescape? Factions/Guilds. In all three settings, there is a set number of powerful guilds that push the setting. In Ravnica, it's determined by the combination of the magic types: 10 total. In Planescape, the Lady of Pain declared that there would only be 15 Factions in the city of Sigil. In Eberron, the number of Dragonmarked Houses sits at 12 (really 13 due to the setting's conceit of the Baker's Dozen: 12 + 1). Although Planescape has not been confirmed, it does sit with these settings that often do have a combination of larger than life urban locales (i.e., Sharn, Ravnica, Sigil) and faction/guild politics.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

Aguirre Melchiors said:


> well this was boring, sorry!
> i dont like when D&D start spamming books, feels like end of 3.5
> even the regular books already have reprinted material and 17 pages of names.
> i would like less books  and better material




 I sort of get where your coming from on this,  but Setting books don't count,  I don't think this will have a lot of filler or repeats with official products.


----------



## robus (Jul 23, 2018)

Aldarc said:


> Has no one noted one of the similarities between Ravnica, Eberron, and Planescape? Factions/Guilds. In all three settings, there is a set number of powerful guilds that push the setting. In Ravnica, it's determined by the combination of the magic types: 10 total. In Planescape, the Lady of Pain declared that there would only be 15 Factions in the city of Sigil. In Eberron, the number of Dragonmarked Houses sits at 12 (really 13 due to the setting's conceit of the Baker's Dozen: 12 + 1). Although Planescape has not been confirmed, it does sit with these settings that often do have a combination of larger than life urban locales (i.e., Sharn, Ravnica, Sigil) and faction/guild politics.




That’s interesting, because WotC have stated that they’re only interested in publishing settings that have a distinct feel. If Ravnica feels like Eberron why would they update Eberron. Perhaps Ravnica will include the mechanical updates needed to run Eberron in 5e and they kill two birds with one stone? (Eberron content, both official and otherwise, being available on DMs Guild...)


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Baldur's Gate.




I think you mean Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn (and Throne of Bhaal). I don't recall any Spelljammers in the first game.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 23, 2018)

Aldarc said:


> Has no one noted one of the similarities between Ravnica, Eberron, and Planescape? Factions/Guilds. In all three settings, there is a set number of powerful guilds that push the setting. In Ravnica, it's determined by the combination of the magic types: 10 total. In Planescape, the Lady of Pain declared that there would only be 15 Factions in the city of Sigil. In Eberron, the number of Dragonmarked Houses sits at 12 (really 13 due to the setting's conceit of the Baker's Dozen: 12 + 1). Although Planescape has not been confirmed, it does sit with these settings that often do have a combination of larger than life urban locales (i.e., Sharn, Ravnica, Sigil) and faction/guild politics.




I have. They could be going with "using this material with Planescape/Eberron" sideboxes, and digitally republishing old Planescape and Eberron source material.

It occurred to me that the crossover may also be going the other way, with an Eberron expansion for MotG.


----------



## Ristamar (Jul 23, 2018)

My own mixed response, summarized:

*NEGATIVE*

I don't have a strong inclination to invest in a new fantasy world given the time constraints in my life. 
I doubt I'd ever choose to DM a Ravnica game.
*NEUTRAL*

I have no emotional connection to any M:tG settings and lore, good or bad. 
*POSTIVE*

I'll definitely mine the book for any new mechanics and ideas to use in my own games. 
If I was asked to play in a Ravnica game, I'd give it a fair shot.


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I get the thought behind it.
> Magic the Gathering has a tonne of lore that never gets explored. This can do that. And there's a decent overlap between MtG and D&D fans, who will be excited by this book. And it might sell to MtG fans who don't play D&D, potentially getting them into D&D.
> But that last point is targeting a _potential_ audience over a _real_ audience.



Its called expanding the audience. 

You and I already buy everything. They can survive us being disappointed. 

What's at stake here is getting new gamers into buying D&D books.

They have simply decided the number of new customers isn't increasing as quickly if they release something nobody outside of DnD has heard of.


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 23, 2018)

darjr said:


> I have friends that have wanted this for a long time.



I have remained perplexed about the lack of MtG DnD content for decades.

It feels nice to relax that face finally...


----------



## robus (Jul 23, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> I have remained perplexed about the lack of MtG DnD content for decades.
> 
> It feels nice to relax that face finally...




While I've not had the perplexed face that long I agree that this obvious product alignment has been a long time coming.

Each time a new D&D adventure comes out I wonder which plane it would suit best as I'm wanting to have each campaign have a fresh and distinct feel (mind you this is all in my head, we're still slogging through my high-level reboot of OotA! But a man can dream...  )


----------



## Jester David (Jul 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Maybe take a break until something more solid is announced? At this point, we don't know what is coming.



Firstly, I don't disengage well. When someone replies to me I need to reply back. Not doing so feels like something left undone, which nags at me for hours. 
And replying usually prompts a second reply that typically snowballs and results in me doubling down on my position.

Secondly, turns out to be more of a chicken-and-egg situation.
Slow burning migraine without the usual warning aura, which makes me cranky and grumpy from the pain while also tanking my serotonin levels, giving me an extra surly disposition and a diminished ability to feel happy.


----------



## Jester David (Jul 23, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> You may be correct.  Or not.  No need to get upset *in advance* - plenty of time for that later.



It's more trying to temper my expectations. 

* * *



Slade Thirteen said:


> I understand your frustration... But I have to disagree on the point of 'real vs potential'. They have been making Plane modules for 3 years now. We have: Zendikar, Innistrad, Kaladesh, Amonkhet, and Ixalan. They are under the title "Plane Shift". This will be their first full book, true, but there IS a real audience already. Sure, you specifically might not feel apart of it, but there is real interest.



The catch is that the "sales" of free PDFs with no buy in cost are not a great representation of how well a physical book will sell. 



Slade Thirteen said:


> And Ravnica is a HUGE setting. And I don't mean lore wise (though there is a -lot- to mine there), I mean that of all the Planes that MtG returns to, the absolute most popular is Ravnica. (Dominaria, Zendikar, and Innistrad being a few others that trail just behind). Make no mistake, this is going to sell, especially if what's inside is worth it.



It's popular to *some* MtG fans. 
We enter the three-circle Venn diagram territory of MtG fans who are Ravnica fans who are also D&D fans. 

I'm sure there are a lot of MtG fans who aren't Ravnica fans who won't care about this. (One of the first comments I saw on Twitter was "I want Tarkir".) And there are the MtG fans who are Ravnica fans who don't care about D&D and have no interest in this book. 
_Maybe_ some MtG fans will see this, give the book a read and decide to play D&D. But I suspect not having a familiar world was a the barrier to MtG fans jumping into the game or checking out D&D books.


----------



## Mercule (Jul 23, 2018)

robus said:


> That’s interesting, because WotC have stated that they’re only interested in publishing settings that have a distinct feel. If Ravnica feels like Eberron why would they update Eberron. Perhaps Ravnica will include the mechanical updates needed to run Eberron in 5e and they kill two birds with one stone? (Eberron content, both official and otherwise, being available on DMs Guild...)



As I've been reading this thread, this is the thought that started creeping in, and I'm not happy about it.

I don't really care if they produce a cross-over setting. Actually, I'm probably more positive on the idea, even if I really have no interest in any sort of "everything is a city" setting or MtG crossover, personally. I've always said that I really just don't want to see D&D devolve into being married to a single setting -- especially the Realms.

About the only legacy setting that I, personally, have strong feelings about getting 5E support is Eberron. I'm an avid home-brewer and have looted pretty much every other setting for spare parts, but Eberron is the only one that I've actively used, as a GM (I don't really count the handful of times I've set one-shots in Greyhawk as a sort of "neutral ground" as the same thing). I think some of the other settings (Dark Sun and Ravenloft, especially) have sufficient uniqueness to them that fans would feel similarly and there might be enough of a market to support something. I'd welcome a "grand tour of the worlds" where every year, a single setting was given a flavorful adventure (ala Curse of Strahd).

As far as the topic at hand goes, I'm trying to take an unfortunate leak as just that -- something without context. The existence of a MtG crossover doesn't mean there isn't something else, as well. The quotes from Nathan seem to indicate that we'll get three settings, in some form. At least one of those will "really make hardcore fans happy" (or something akin to that). If that's not some form of physical product, Nathan has no clue about what will make hardcore fans happy.

And this, maybe more than anything, is the real problem with the way 5E is being handled, right now. Maybe it's Nathan's style. Maybe it's Nathan doing his best to polish a turd being handed to him. There are a lot of things that can be done with D&D, at this moment. WotC could marry it to the Realms as the only supported setting because that's where the money is. They could opt to give basic, but formal support to older settings, whether the CoS one-and-done adventure, a SCAG one-and-done book, or even a "worlds of adventure" collection of strictly minimalist coverage. They could leverage other, known, IPs as with the Ravnica book. They could create something totally new. They could take a couple of "easy wins", too, and just open up settings on DMs Guild without any physical support. They could do some combination of the above.

What they shouldn't do, though, is be misleading and/or botch the hype machine. A huge, month-long plus build-up about how you're going to make "hardcore fans" happy that ends with an announcement about "Yeah, Eberron material can be released on the DMs Guild, but we aren't doing anything, ourselves," isn't appropriate. While it might "satisfy" hardcore fans, it isn't going to "excite", "please", or "make happy" any hardcore fans. This is especially true when they're (probably) announcing a hardcover for a crossover setting on the same day they're (potentially) announcing the lack of one for hardcore fans.

Again, it's not that any of the potential choices WotC is making about what products to make are strictly wrong. It's that they don't seem to jive with the hype. The problem with a leak is that we really don't know how this will play out, yet. I'm pointing out the potential issues and why folks might getting grumpy, but I'm doing a pretty good job of internally being comfortable with waiting for the official announcement before I grab a pitchfork.

Note that Eberron has one potential ace in the hole with a "DMs Guild support, but no hardcover" that no other setting enjoys: Keith Baker. If the announcement includes a statement that Keith is committed to producing an official 5E conversion and X additional "books" over the next year, then hardcore fans of the setting will likely actually be happy enough about that that the disappointment over the hardcover will be offset enough for the hype to make sense. As a semi-hardcore fan, I'd still love to see a hardcover of some sort. Really, though, my main beef with the current model is that, based on the current product line-up, the Realms appear to new players as the only setting for D&D, so I'll get over it.


----------



## The Grassy Gnoll (Jul 23, 2018)

Help, please:

1. RAV ni ka
2. Rav KNEE ka
3. Rav NEET sa
4. Rav NEETCH ah
5. Other

Thanks


----------



## Ancalagon (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Firstly, I don't disengage well. When someone replies to me I need to reply back. Not doing so feels like something left undone, which nags at me for hours.
> And replying usually prompts a second reply that typically snowballs and results in me doubling down on my position.
> 
> Secondly, turns out to be more of a chicken-and-egg situation.
> Slow burning migraine without the usual warning aura, which makes me cranky and grumpy from the pain while also tanking my serotonin levels, giving me an extra surly disposition and a diminished ability to feel happy.



I didn't want to rile you up, I'm sorry about that.  Migraine sounds pretty crummy.  No need to reply to this message, just wanted to extend some good will.


----------



## delericho (Jul 23, 2018)

The Grassy Gnoll said:


> Help, please:
> 
> 1. RAV ni ka
> 2. Rav KNEE ka
> ...




Rhymes with 'bow'.


----------



## Dausuul (Jul 23, 2018)

Y'know, when that UA with the Circle of Spores druid showed up a while back, I thought, "Man, that sounds like classic Golgari."


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Jul 23, 2018)

I think the cover girl is of the School of Invention subclass they had in an UA article months ago.  Hopefully they really went back to the drawing board with that one, as I felt there were many issues with that subclass.


----------



## Acolyte of Zothique (Jul 23, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> Its called expanding the audience.
> 
> You and I already buy everything. They can survive us being disappointed.
> 
> ...




This. I'd love a 5E version of Spelljammer or Planescape but you have to bring new people in as well. I don't know much about Ravnica but it sounds cool as hell. Eberron was new once, I recall being excited about it in 2004 - that was then and this is now. Time for innovation again.


----------



## vpuigdoller (Jul 23, 2018)

I believe at least the artificer class is inside the Ravnica book.  Im wondering about the races though.  Second option is a free pdf with the races and class on wizards website or dms guild.


----------



## Mercule (Jul 23, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> Its called expanding the audience.
> 
> You and I already buy everything. They can survive us being disappointed.



You may be speaking directly to Jester David based on specific knowledge, but this sounds like general assumption.

As another grognard, I do not already buy everything. I have plenty of disposable income to throw at D&D, but I don't buy stuff that seems tightly coupled to the Realms (or other settings I don't like). I specifically buy things for settings I like, including to mine for homebrew.

5E has been releasing stuff that mostly tied to the Realms, even when it doesn't need to be. The net effect is that my disposable income is mostly going towards buying books for other systems (even though I'm currently playing D&D exclusively) or towards board games on Kickstarter.

This isn't to say that the MtG crossover is a bad thing (I think it's good, even if it doesn't look interesting to me). I'm just poking at the idea that the established players are, or will continue to, throw money at WotC without consideration.


----------



## Mercule (Jul 23, 2018)

vpuigdoller said:


> I believe at least the artificer class is inside the Ravnica book.  Im wondering about the races though.  Second option is a free pdf with the races and class on wizards website or dms guild.



Source?

If there's enough material in the book for me to mine, I'll probably check it out. I suspect that there's very little I actually care about, though. If this is true, I might end up just cherry-picking the artificer on DDB.


----------



## TwoSix (Jul 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I'm sure there are a lot of MtG fans who aren't Ravnica fans who won't care about this. (One of the first comments I saw on Twitter was "I want Tarkir".) And there are the MtG fans who are Ravnica fans who don't care about D&D and have no interest in this book.
> _Maybe_ some MtG fans will see this, give the book a read and decide to play D&D. But I suspect not having a familiar world was a the barrier to MtG fans jumping into the game or checking out D&D books.



Speaking as someone who hasn't played Magic in 20+ years, I'll be buying this book purely because it's new and interesting.  I suspect a fair amount of D&D fans fall into the "neophile" category.


----------



## Dungeonosophy (Jul 23, 2018)

delericho said:


> if they do announce a product that hybridizes Planescape and Spelljammer, _that_ would piss me off. Those are two strongly-flavoured settings that each have their places and have their fans, but which really shouldn't be mixed - like putting fish sauce on cherry ice cream.




That's like saying: "Underwater adventures, aerial adventures, Underdark adventures, and surface-based adventures shouldn't be mixed in the Forgotten Realms." I mean, if you get in an astral skiff/airship and fly up, you're in "Spelljammer". If you plane shift, you're in "Planescape." If you timetravel, you're in "Chronomancer." It's all the D&D Multiverse. It's all the Planes of Existence.

Mearls has confirmed that 5E space travel is a kind of planar travel.

Yeah, Sigil has a different feel than the Rock of Bral. But I'm asking for a Manual of the Planes (or a MotP-style world-hopping adventure!) that has a chapter on Sigil (and planar travel), a chapter on the Rock of Bral (and spacetravel), and a chapter on some iconic timetravel nexus (e.g. the Comeback Inn, or the Nexus from CM6, or the Age of Blackmoor itself).

When I say "meta-setting", I'm not talking about a new "brand" with a new logo. Not even the "Forgotten Realms" logo is seen on 5E products. I'm not calling for some kind of mashed up "Planejammer" hybrid.

Simply presenting the various modes of transit, and key adventure sites. Whether they be reachable by planar travel, spacetravel, or timetravel. The D&D Multiverse is already a meta-setting. That's all.


----------



## Aguirre Melchiors (Jul 23, 2018)

i really like the style '' adventure with hard setting description'' would be a great way to introduce planescape or spell jammer.


----------



## delericho (Jul 23, 2018)

Polyhedral Columbia said:


> That's like saying: "Underwater adventures, aerial adventures, Underdark adventures, and surface-based adventures shouldn't be mixed in the Forgotten Realms."




No, it's not. Because going underwater is not the same thing as going into the Underdark - they're different locations within the same setting. If they said that going underwater was somehow a "kind of going into the Underdark" _then_ there would be a problem.



> I mean, if you get in an astral skiff/airship and fly up, you're in "Spelljammer". If you plane shift, you're in "Planescape." If you timetravel, you're in "Chronomancer." It's all the D&D Multiverse. It's all the Planes of Existence.




And those are all fine. But if getting into that airship and flying 'up' meant you were in _Planescape_ then I would have a problem with _that_.

I don't have a problem with them having different ways to get around. What I have a problem with is if they decide that they're all _the same_ way to get around.


----------



## mjsoctober (Jul 23, 2018)

The Ravnica items are now listed on the D&D web site. I don't see any other setting books there.

http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products


----------



## Proyas the Elder (Jul 23, 2018)

I'm actually OK with Ravnica as a setting book, just because it is something different and isn't the Realms.  I played MtG for a super short time and liked it, and it seemed to have some nifty lore.  So I'm in.  Now if for their additional setting(s) they would announce some old school stuff to appease my grognard side, I would be set...


----------



## Prakriti (Jul 23, 2018)

mjsoctober said:


> The Ravnica items are now listed on the D&D web site. I don't see any other setting books there.
> 
> http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products




View attachment 99620


----------



## Jester David (Jul 23, 2018)

Mercule said:


> I'm just poking at the idea that the established players are, or will continue to, throw money at WotC without consideration.



I dispute that idea as well. Some 4e designers commented that one of the reasons they felt 4e and the post-Spellplague Realms failed to retain established players. They just assumed existing players would upgrade and keep playing and focused heavily on new players. That the changes would just be accepted because it was D&D/ the Realms.

I don’t think every product needs to be full fan service. But you can’t ignore your audience. 
(Which is why I think this product is a bonus fourth product.)



TwoSix said:


> Speaking as someone who hasn't played Magic in 20+ years, I'll be buying this book purely because it's new and interesting.  I suspect a fair amount of D&D fans fall into the "neophile" category.



My boilerplate response to that any of the two-dozen 3rd party publishers can do “new”. (I recommend Tal’dorie, Midgard, or Karthun.)
Only WotC can do Dark Sun and Hollow World


----------



## nineballl2 (Jul 23, 2018)

is there a plane shift ver? like all the others they have done?


----------



## Pauper (Jul 23, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> I have remained perplexed about the lack of MtG DnD content for decades.




It's not all that confusing -- as long as D&D and Magic are different 'brands', the question becomes "who gets credit for the revenue?" Sure, it's got the D&D logo on it, but a significant part of the creative work was done by folks on the Magic team, and without a way to 'chargeback' those costs, the Magic folks would likely want to get credit for sales of material based on their work.

Clearly they've figured out how that process works now.



			
				Aldarc said:
			
		

> Has no one noted one of the similarities between Ravnica, Eberron, and Planescape?




Not only that, but if the Magic-style setting incorporates those sorts of mechanics into D&D, then there's really no need for an official Planescape 5E setting at all -- 'the multiverse' becomes an actual multiverse rather than a series of alternate Prime Material planes existing within the 'true' Great Wheel cosmology.

I'm not necessarily a fan of that style of setting design, but it does make sense, particularly given the way the official WotC folks have emphasized 'the multiverse' as the true setting, rather than any given 'over-setting' such as Planescape or Spelljammer.

--
Pauper


----------



## mjsoctober (Jul 23, 2018)

So Eberron is out in digital format and Ravnica is the hardcover book. Should have been the other way round. :-/


----------



## DCRWrites (Jul 23, 2018)

I'm definitely curious -- though I'm not sure about the budget stretching at this point. Then again the setting I want most is one I'm sure we won't get for 5E: Birthright.


----------



## MNblockhead (Jul 23, 2018)

mjsoctober said:


> So Eberron is out in digital format and Ravnica is the hardcover book. Should have been the other way round. :-/




I disagree. I know where you are coming from. I never played Eberron, Planescape, Spelljammer, Dark Sun--all of which have a rabid fan base here on EN World--but I would certainly like to see a 5e version of Greyhawk. 

But the Ravnica setting makes sense to me. It is a brand new setting for D&D, taken from a more popular game with a lot of cross-over potential. It will hopefully attract new players to D&D and enough of us Grognards will pick it up if the quality is good and the content interesting. 

Having the new Eberron Book in PDF and in D&D Beyond is a good model for other settings. Not everything can have a main print run. It would be nice, however, if they would allow print on demand.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Jul 23, 2018)

The planewalkers will be a cannon D&D class?


----------



## Ratskinner (Jul 23, 2018)

The Grassy Gnoll said:


> Help, please:
> 
> 1. RAV ni ka
> 2. Rav KNEE ka
> ...



I believe most Americans probably say RAV-neek-ah, but!

I seem to recall that its actually intended to be pronounced RAV-neets-ah, to keep with its SE European flavor. I believe the "c" is supposed to have a little doo-hicky at the bottom, but they left it out for Marketing reasons.

Take that with a very heavy dose of IIRC.


----------



## Kite474 (Jul 23, 2018)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> The planewalkers will be a cannon D&D class?




Will most likely just be a background or template added on a preexisting character.

Modern planeswalker are just regular dudes/dudeetts with Planeshift as a special ability.

Before the mending though.... Well lets say MtG was more Exalted than D&D


----------



## MNblockhead (Jul 23, 2018)

mjsoctober said:


> So Eberron is out in digital format and Ravnica is the hardcover book. Should have been the other way round. :-/




I disagree. I know where you are coming from. I never played Eberron, Planescape, Spelljammer, Dark Sun--all of which have a rabid fan base here on EN World--but I would certainly like to see a 5e version of Greyhawk. 

But the Ravnica setting makes sense to me. It is a brand new setting for D&D, taken from a more popular game with a lot of cross-over potential. It will hopefully attract new players to D&D and enough of us Grognards will pick it up if the quality is good and the content interesting. 

Having the new Eberron Book in PDF and in D&D Beyond is a good model for other settings. Not everything can have a main print run. It would be nice, however, if they would allow print on demand.


----------



## Ratskinner (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> You make two very good points. Color is very much like Magic's equivalent of alignment - although it seems probable that it would have more mechanical implications than WotC has been trying to give alignment lately. But also, now that I think about it, wasn't the in-universe understanding of the colors in Ravnica kind of weak because it was distorted by the guild system? I wouldn't have the guilds _replace_ alignment - they're more like factions, being actual concrete organizations - but they certainly replace how Ravnicans might _think_ about alignment, if I'm recalling correctly.



I agree about the mechanical implications, so that might depend solely on how much they want to have card-game mechanics translate as real. That is, color is important for Planeswalkers, but D&D adventurers are more like (creature) cards in the game.

Would (sub)class choices be limited by color? Would spells for PCs be limited by their color? I actually don't think it would take too many rules to implement it. (Think of how little has to be taken out to remove Alignment.) However, it would take some extra work (re)cataloging spells and creatures by color, and tossing in a few new or modified spells.

The real question is whether that would be worth it. I'm not sure that it would be, but that's a question for playtesting.


----------



## The Grassy Gnoll (Jul 23, 2018)

Ratskinner said:


> I believe most Americans probably say RAV-neek-ah, but!
> 
> I seem to recall that its actually intended to be pronounced RAV-neets-ah, to keep with its SE European flavor. I believe the "c" is supposed to have a little doo-hicky at the bottom, but they left it out for Marketing reasons.
> 
> Take that with a very heavy dose of IIRC.



Thanks - I think I will go with Rav-neets-ah. Seeing as I am, for now at least, European.
Plus, cod-Baltic accents are, for me, ze most fun zat it eez possible for me to be havink.


----------



## Pauper (Jul 23, 2018)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> The planewalkers will be a cannon D&D class?




Unlikely. Haven't seen the actual product on the DM's Guild yet, but the blurb on the WotC page makes me think that the focus is on adventures in Ravnica, with the PCs being members of the Ravnican guilds rather than have the PCs be planeswalkers visiting Ravnica.

Still, a high enough level wizard or cleric is effectively a planeswalker as far as getting to alternate worlds is concerned.

--
Pauper


----------



## robus (Jul 23, 2018)

Ratskinner said:


> Would (sub)class choices be limited by color? Would spells for PCs be limited by their color? I actually don't think it would take too many rules to implement it. (Think of how little has to be taken out to remove Alignment.) However, it would take some extra work (re)cataloging spells and creatures by color, and tossing in a few new or modified spells.




My bet is that they will keep the game mechanics cleanly separated, but what do I know?!


----------



## robus (Jul 23, 2018)

Pauper said:


> Still, a high enough level wizard or cleric is effectively a planeswalker as far as getting to alternate worlds is concerned.




That, to me, is the toughest nut to crack in this move. How are there not literally thousands of planeswalkers if D&D-style magic is available in Ravnica (and thus the Magic planes)? Unless Ravnica campaign setting says levels top out at 10 instead of 20!  Or planeswalkers are simply not mentioned (as they're really a Magic thing not a D&D thing) and instead the focus is on the world itself and hand-wave, hand-wave...

I'm very curious to see how they draw that line.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

Pauper said:


> Unlikely. Haven't seen the actual product on the DM's Guild yet, but the blurb on the WotC page makes me think that the focus is on adventures in Ravnica, with the PCs being members of the Ravnican guilds rather than have the PCs be planeswalkers visiting Ravnica.
> 
> Still, a high enough level wizard or cleric is effectively a planeswalker as far as getting to alternate worlds is concerned.
> 
> ...



In Magic lore, there are two kinds of planeswalker. A post-Mending 'walker is more like a race than a class: they have this one special trick, but are otherwise completely open-ended in powers and abilities. A pre-Mending 'walker, on the other hand, is somewhere above a god.

It's also relevant that you brought up planar magic, because traditionally, _only_ planeswalkers can planeswalk. Everything else, up to and including deities, is stuck on a single plane and probably not even aware that the multiverse exists. There are vanishingly few exceptions.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

Ratskinner said:


> I believe most Americans probably say RAV-neek-ah, but!
> 
> I seem to recall that its actually intended to be pronounced RAV-neets-ah, to keep with its SE European flavor. I believe the "c" is supposed to have a little doo-hicky at the bottom, but they left it out for Marketing reasons.
> 
> Take that with a very heavy dose of IIRC.



IIRC, the Anglicized pronunciations are canon - as you say, for marketing reasons. And after all, it's not as if they're actually speaking Czech in Ravnica. Their written language just happens to bear a completely coinicdental resemblance to it...


----------



## variant (Jul 23, 2018)

Is Magic the Gathering doing so badly that they need to spend time and effort on a D&D crossover at the expense of actual D&D settings?


----------



## Dispater (Jul 23, 2018)

Id be interested in the way magic works. Hopefully that’ll be interesting. Lore-wise I have about 0 interest in yet another generic high fantasy setting.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

Where was a Eberron PDF confirmed?


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

variant said:


> Is Magic the Gathering doing so badly that they need to spend time and effort on a D&D crossover at the expense of actual D&D settings?



No, Magic is doing so well that they see an opportunity in getting players to buy some D&D books and start playing this game by turning a Magic world into a new "actual D&D setting".

Seriously, why would they do this if Magic were doing _badly_?


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jul 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> Where was a Eberron PDF confirmed?



Well, as it's already on the DMs Guild and available on D&D Beyond, I think it's been confirmed lol.


----------



## variant (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> No, Magic is doing so well that they see an opportunity in getting players to buy some D&D books and start playing this game by turning a Magic world into a new "actual D&D setting".
> 
> Seriously, why would they do this if Magic were doing _badly_?





Magic sales have been dropping year after year for years now. There's already rumors that Hasbro is starting to look for a buyer for Wizards of the Coast.


----------



## Patrick McGill (Jul 23, 2018)

variant said:


> Magic sales have been dropping year after year for years now. There's already rumors that Hasbro is starting to look for a buyer for Wizards of the Coast.




Not saying you're being false, but I'd be interested in seeing a source for this. I was under the impression that Magic has been doing swimmingly.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 23, 2018)

variant said:


> Is Magic the Gathering doing so badly that they need to spend time and effort on a D&D crossover at the expense of actual D&D settings?




No, as James Wyatt, the main writer for this, said on Twitter, it is because there was such positive response to the Planeshift articles that this project got the green light.

As for the other D&D worlds, from the way I am understanding what Mearls and Crawford and others are saying, the format used for Eberron is the format planned for all the other worlds too, and the Ravnica release had no impact on that. So expect pdf guides over the next couple of years for other major D&D worlds and plenty of DMs Guild content to go with them.


----------



## kenmarable (Jul 23, 2018)

variant said:


> Magic sales have been dropping year after year for years now. There's already rumors that Hasbro is starting to look for a buyer for Wizards of the Coast.




Although, to be fair, people have been claiming there's rumors that Hasbro is on the verge of selling off some or all of WotC since the day they bought them.


----------



## Kite474 (Jul 23, 2018)

Magic did have a drop in sales for a bit... Then Dominaria and Battlebond came out and that got resolved reaaaaaaaal fast


----------



## The Grassy Gnoll (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> IIRC, the Anglicized pronunciations are canon - as you say, for marketing reasons. And after all, it's not as if they're actually speaking Czech in Ravnica. Their written language just happens to bear a completely coinicdental resemblance to it...




I have done my due cedillagence (see what I did there?) and I am not carink vot anyvun says, i vill be sayink Ravneetsa.


----------



## variant (Jul 23, 2018)

Patrick McGill said:


> Not saying you're being false, but I'd be interested in seeing a source for this. I was under the impression that Magic has been doing swimmingly.




They are at 12 million players now according to Mark Rosewater. Source That's a 40% drop since 2015. Source.

[video=youtube;zSxd49zAnvA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSxd49zAnvA[/video]


----------



## Bacon Bits (Jul 23, 2018)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> The planewalkers will be a cannon D&D class?




That seems relatively unlikely.  You don't train to become a planeswalker; you're born as one.  While you do seem to need to know how to cast a spell, you don't need to be a particularly experienced spellcaster (see: Garruk).  You're born with a planeswalker spark -- which is itself absurdly rare -- and even then your spark will not ignite unless you're in the right place at the right time (usually under a lot of stress).  Planeswalkers, even post-Mending (a.k.a, Magic's Crisis on Infinite Earths) are more powerful than other wizards, and planeswalker sparks are about as common as major artifacts.  Pre-Mending planeswalkers were at least lesser gods in power as far as D&D terms go.  Post-Mending, they're essentially one step below demigods.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

variant said:


> They are at 12 million players now according to Mark Rosewater. Source That's a 40% drop since 2015. Source.
> 
> [video=youtube;zSxd49zAnvA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSxd49zAnvA[/video]



Hasbro, by coincidence, released their second-quarter financial results today. Here is a report. tl;dr: Magic is growing.

But no, let's trust a disgruntled YouTuber instead.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

The Grassy Gnoll said:


> I have done my due cedillagence (see what I did there?) and I am not carink vot anyvun says, i vill be sayink Ravneetsa.



I think it's actually a háček.


----------



## Kite474 (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Hasbro, by coincidence, released their second-quarter financial results today. Here is a report. tl;dr: Magic is growing.
> 
> But no, let's trust a disgruntled YouTuber instead.




Said Youtuber is alos known in the community as a lier, scummy and generally clickbaiting jack***


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

Kite474 said:


> Said Youtuber is alos known in the community as a lier, scummy and generally clickbaiting jack***



And market manipulator, which suggests an ulterior motive for repeatedly claiming that Magic is collapsing, but I didn't feel the need to go into all that.


----------



## variant (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Hasbro, by coincidence, released their second-quarter financial results today. Here is a report. tl;dr: Magic is growing.
> 
> But no, let's trust a disgruntled YouTuber instead.




A growth with the release of Dominaria is expected. They had a 20% drop in Magic the Gathering revenue last quarter.

He's not some disgruntled YouTuber, he's a Magic store owner in Florida who is getting burned hard by Wizard's of the Coast decisions such as their choice to use bad cardstock, and poor randomization of the Masters 25. Wizards fired their Vice President of Production and just decided to end their buy direct program for Magic stores. Seas are not exactly calm at the company.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

variant said:


> He's not some disgruntled YouTuber, he's a Magic store owner in Florida who is getting burned hard by Wizard's of the Coast decisions such as their choice to use bad cardstock, and poor randomization of the Masters 25. Wizards fired their Vice President of Production and just decided to end their buy direct program for Magic stores. Seas are not exactly calm at the company.



Like I said, I don't think it's necessary to go into what he is. Curious parties can google him and evaluate his reputation for themselves. My point is not to put him on trial. It's to say that releasing a campaign setting for an IP that's a sinking ship makes no sense. It's not a move to bring D&D players into Magic, it's a move to bring Magic players into D&D. That's a demonstration of confidence in the Magic brand.


----------



## variant (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Like I said, I don't think it's necessary to go into what he is. Curious parties can google him and evaluate his reputation for themselves. My point is not to put him on trial. It's to say that releasing a campaign setting for an IP that's a sinking ship makes no sense. It's not a move to bring D&D players into Magic, it's a move to bring Magic players into D&D. That's a demonstration of confidence in the Magic brand.




Are you saying Wizard's didn't have confidence in their Magic the Gathering brand for the two decades they've owned D&D and never did crossovers? They are trying to generate more revenue. It's been the growth of D&D that's keeping Wizard's numbers not appearing as bad. We will never know if they will internally categorize a Magic the Gathering campaign setting under D&D or Magic the Gathering.


----------



## SuperTD (Jul 23, 2018)

Crawford just confirmed on stream that there will be a lot of monsters for Ravnica - at his last count it is coming close to the amount in MToF. That's a lot of monsters for what looks like a smallish book!


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Jul 23, 2018)

My opinion is the franchises or IPs are being recycled for other fields. Hasbro made a lot of money with the movie of transformers, when it was an almost forgotten title. The background of MtG may be a gold mine in the right hands with a good videogame, cartoon or movie adaptation. 

Do you think Innistrad will be mixed with Ravenloft?


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 23, 2018)

variant said:


> Are you saying Wizard's didn't have confidence in their Magic the Gathering brand for the two decades they've owned D&D and never did crossovers?



Disney hasn't done a Marvel/Star Wars crossover. They must not be confident in those brands.



variant said:


> They are trying to generate more revenue.



Um... duh?



variant said:


> It's been the growth of D&D that's keeping Wizard's numbers not appearing as bad.



D&D has been doing well. Its numbers are still nowhere near Magic's, and could not prop it up.


----------



## cbwjm (Jul 23, 2018)

MNblockhead said:


> I disagree. I know where you are coming from. I never played Eberron, Planescape, Spelljammer, Dark Sun--all of which have a rabid fan base here on EN World--but I would certainly like to see a 5e version of Greyhawk.
> 
> But the Ravnica setting makes sense to me. It is a brand new setting for D&D, taken from a more popular game with a lot of cross-over potential. It will hopefully attract new players to D&D and enough of us Grognards will pick it up if the quality is good and the content interesting.
> 
> Having the new Eberron Book in PDF and in D&D Beyond is a good model for other settings. Not everything can have a main print run. It would be nice, however, if they would allow print on demand.




POD would be terrible for the current book, it is not complete (it doesn't include the artificer yet) and the material is still play test material which will be updated once feedback has been received. It's essentially like buying an early access game off steam. Once the PDF is updated and complete, then POD will likely be available.


----------



## variant (Jul 23, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Disney hasn't done a Marvel/Star Wars crossover. They must not be confident in those brands.
> 
> Um... duh?
> 
> D&D has been doing well. Its numbers are still nowhere near Magic's, and could not prop it up.




You are the one that stated the crossover shows confidence in the Magic the Gathering brand.

They are so confident in MTG that they seem to be reducing costs everywhere they can such as how they now reduced the prize support for Magic stores for prerelease events and removing direct sales for game stores.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jul 23, 2018)

This is the first D&D setting book that's come out in years that I want to adventure in and the first new D&D setting in 15 years. 

Its about time.


----------



## gyor (Jul 23, 2018)

https://youtu.be/Xeyd6aJMImQ

 D&D beyond video for Ravnica,  they explain why of all MtG worlds they picked this one,  they talk about Ravnica itself a bit,  they do kind of explain how they are adding Ravnica to D&D,  they colours are more philosophical abstractions apparently, like white is order and red passion.[video=youtube_share;Xeyd6aJMImQ]https://youtu.be/Xeyd6aJMImQ[/video]


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 24, 2018)

Pauper said:


> It's not all that confusing -- as long as D&D and Magic are different 'brands', the question becomes "who gets credit for the revenue?" Sure, it's got the D&D logo on it, but a significant part of the creative work was done by folks on the Magic team, and without a way to 'chargeback' those costs, the Magic folks would likely want to get credit for sales of material based on their work.
> 
> Clearly they've figured out how that process works now.



Only now?

I remain in my state of perplexity about the lack of MtG DnD content..


----------



## Rygar (Jul 24, 2018)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> My opinion is the franchises or IPs are being recycled for other fields. Hasbro made a lot of money with the movie of transformers, when it was an almost forgotten title. The background of MtG may be a gold mine in the right hands with a good videogame, cartoon or movie adaptation.
> 
> Do you think Innistrad will be mixed with Ravenloft?




As Magic the Gathering, at last report, has been bleeding players at a pretty high rate, I don't think it's much of a goldmine.  We don't know if it's flatlined yet or if it's worsening, but either way drops of as much as 30%-35% year over year is a really good sign that you shouldn't be using it as a basis for other products.  Especially when you've been ignoring really popular settings in those other products for the past 5 years.  Nevermind the obvious horrible business decision of using a failing product to create products in another line which are pretty much guaranteed to fail too, instead of making something that would've sold.

Honestly, I *strongly* doubt we'll see Innistrad mixed with Ravenloft.  I suspect Magic the Gathering is tipping off a cliff, if it hasn't already, and WOTC will no longer have any major money generator.  If we're lucky, D&D will be sold to Paizo.  Most likely, Hasbro will put it in a valut and try to use it as a vehicle for TV shows or movies.

If Magic's continuing to lose players, and it's doing it in double digits, the clock is ticking and there's *very* little time on it.


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 24, 2018)

gyor said:


> https://youtu.be/Xeyd6aJMImQ
> 
> D&D beyond video for Ravnica,  they explain why of all MtG worlds they picked this one,  they talk about Ravnica itself a bit,  they do kind of explain how they are adding Ravnica to D&D,  they colours are more philosophical abstractions apparently, like white is order and red passion.[video=youtube_share;Xeyd6aJMImQ]https://youtu.be/Xeyd6aJMImQ[/video]



Okay, so your guild is your background. Tries to listen closely, but nope - no mention of new crunch, only fluff. Random tables "your enemy is a nobleman" is not useful to me. And suggestions for abstract and generic adventure isn't my thing either.

If your guild had given you real actual abilities (ideally on several different levels), and they planned on releasing actual written adventures, I could have been more interested.

Of course, what I really want out of MtG is a replacement magic and spellcasting framework, replacing slots, that allows D&D characters to use mana of the five different colors to create effects.


----------



## Greatwyrm (Jul 24, 2018)

Rygar said:


> I suspect Magic the Gathering is tipping off a cliff, if it hasn't already, and WOTC will no longer have any major money generator.




Well, according to Hasbro's 2018Q2 financial report, MtG is growing.  Just searching for the word "magic" takes me to three references to revenue for MtG growing (up 14% in one reference).  

https://investor.hasbro.com/news-re...reports-second-quarter-2018-financial-results


----------



## hbarsquared (Jul 24, 2018)

So, after the briefest of quick readthroughs...  _Wayfarer's_ looks excellent, both as crunch for updating Eberron races and dragonmarks, but as a very friendly primer on the world.

I have all the Eberron 3.5e and 4e books, yet the description of races, nations, and general life in Khorvaire looks like the best presentation I've seen.

Not to mention the setting-independent goldmine of roleplaying ideas and tips.

Take a look at the [b[]Everyone has Regrets[/b] and *Why do you need 200gp* tables.

Each nation has a brief write up of *Interesting Things* about that nation, as well as what citizens of that nation might be like.

"DM Lore" is kept hidden, to some extent, and doesn't clutter up the descriptions.  The Lords of Dust are barely even mentioned as an organization.

*Starting Points* and *A Quick Sharn Story* are great inspiration for a campaign set in any world.

I'm very impressed, and this would be a useful document to anyone looking for ideas or spicing up any home campaign, whether you like Eberron or not.


----------



## gyor (Jul 24, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> Okay, so your guild is your background. Tries to listen closely, but nope - no mention of new crunch, only fluff. Random tables "your enemy is a nobleman" is not useful to me. And suggestions for abstract and generic adventure isn't my thing either.
> 
> If your guild had given you real actual abilities (ideally on several different levels), and they planned on releasing actual written adventures, I could have been more interested.
> 
> Of course, what I really want out of MtG is a replacement magic and spellcasting framework, replacing slots, that allows D&D characters to use mana of the five different colors to create effects.




 I think that what they intended to convey is that Guilds in Ravnica are kind of like a cross between Background and Factions in FR,  only more so. So you get contracts,  connections,  enemies,  maybe access to locations and guild support systems,  have expected duties and consequences for failure for example.


----------



## gyor (Jul 24, 2018)

Given that the official D&D Ravnica release said the book would have races and classes,  I hope they do a D&D video on that.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 24, 2018)

Rygar said:


> We don't know if it's flatlined yet or if it's worsening, but either way drops of as much as 30%-35% year over year is a really good sign that you shouldn't be using it as a basis for other products.



I agree completely. Thus, the fact that they _are_ using it as a basis for other products causes me to wonder if these rumors of 35% drops may not be entirely accurate.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 24, 2018)

gyor said:


> Given that the official D&D Ravnica release said the book would have races and classes,  I hope they do a D&D video on that.




Well, we have a few months, and their main hype for Summer will be focused on Dragon Heist and Waterdeep.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 24, 2018)

Greatwyrm said:


> Well, according to Hasbro's 2018Q2 financial report, MtG is growing.  Just searching for the word "magic" takes me to three references to revenue for MtG growing (up 14% in one reference).
> 
> https://investor.hasbro.com/news-re...reports-second-quarter-2018-financial-results




How dare you bring rational thought based in verifiable facts into this conversation, you MONSTER.


----------



## Von Ether (Jul 24, 2018)

Jester David said:


> This is very likely the first 5e book I will skip.
> Super disappointed. There's so many settings they're not supporting, and so much of the D&D multiverse lying fallow, and they go with a setting from another game?! C'mon!
> 
> I get the thought behind it.
> ...




Never mind all the art assets from the card game.  This and the Eberron book will be two of the cheapest books to produce for Wizards.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jul 24, 2018)

hbarsquared said:


> So, after the briefest of quick readthroughs...  _Wayfarer's_ looks excellent, both as crunch for updating Eberron races and dragonmarks, but as a very friendly primer on the world.
> 
> I have all the Eberron 3.5e and 4e books, yet the description of races, nations, and general life in Khorvaire looks like the best presentation I've seen.
> 
> ...




That sounds very well done, especially for the "Interesting Things" part. I can only hope they get Greenwood to write up something similar for the non-Sword Coast areas of the Forgotten Realms...


----------



## Yaarel (Jul 24, 2018)

Greatwyrm said:


> Well, according to Hasbro's 2018Q2 financial report, MtG is growing.  Just searching for the word "magic" takes me to three references to revenue for MtG growing (up 14% in one reference).
> 
> https://investor.hasbro.com/news-re...reports-second-quarter-2018-financial-results




Skimming thru the link, it seems the 14% growth refers to a group of games in "Hasbros total gaming category". That said, it singles out Magic: The Gathering and Monopoly as having each experienced growth by an unspecified amount.


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Jul 24, 2018)

WotC senior executive meeting:

MM: "So, what are we hearing about our big announcement?"

JC: "Well, the regulars at Enworld are gnashing their teeth, accusing us of betraying our fans (again), denigrating our business sense, and swearing that they'll never buy this."

MM: (rubbing palms together) "Excellent!  It sounds like we've got another Amazon blockbuster in the works."


----------



## Remathilis (Jul 24, 2018)

Rygar said:


> Honestly, I *strongly* doubt we'll see Innistrad mixed with Ravenloft.  I suspect Magic the Gathering is tipping off a cliff, if it hasn't already, and WOTC will no longer have any major money generator.  If we're lucky, D&D will be sold to Paizo.  Most likely, Hasbro will put it in a valut and try to use it as a vehicle for TV shows or movies.




I think this paragraph is so wrong and short-sighted that it hurts.


----------



## Mercurius (Jul 24, 2018)

Rygar said:


> Honestly, I *strongly* doubt we'll see Innistrad mixed with Ravenloft.  I suspect Magic the Gathering is tipping off a cliff, if it hasn't already, and WOTC will no longer have any major money generator.  If we're lucky, D&D will be sold to Paizo.  Most likely, Hasbro will put it in a valut and try to use it as a vehicle for TV shows or movies.




To quote Luke Skywalker, "What kind of talk is that?"

Seriously though, you do realize that D&D is doing great financially?


----------



## Mercurius (Jul 24, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> WotC senior executive meeting:
> 
> MM: "So, what are we hearing about our big announcement?"
> 
> ...




I would change JC's quote to:

JC: Well, a small but vocal minority of regulars are gnashing their teeth because we didn't regurgitate the same old, same old and republish their favorite setting. These folks seem oblivious to the fact that we are, indeed, in the process of PDFing/PODing "classic settings."

MM: What are you going to do? Nerds are going to rage. Thankfully there's enough fans who are interested in new worlds and ideas, even if they are "tainted" by MtG.


----------



## Warbringer (Jul 24, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> I would change JC's quote to:
> 
> JC: Well, a small but vocal minority of regulars are gnashing their teeth because we didn't regurgitate the same old, same old and republish their favorite setting. These folks seem oblivious to the fact that we are, indeed, in the process of PDFing/PODing "classic settings."
> 
> MM: What are you going to do? Nerds are going to rage. Thankfully there's enough fans who are interested in new worlds and ideas, even if they are "tainted" by MtG.




I can think of another franchise that just imploded with the same thinking ...


----------



## Mercurius (Jul 24, 2018)

Warbringer said:


> I can think of another franchise that just imploded with the same thinking ...




Care to share what you're talking about?

Anyhow, I'm not sure why this isn't a best of both worlds kind of thing. We get a new setting for those that are interested in new ideas and worlds (like myself), but we also get coverage of a classic setting. I suppose it is a bummer if you're a Greyhawk or Mystara (etc) person hoping for your favorite setting to get 5e treatment, but it seems quite likely that Eberron isn't the end of classic treatments. Or maybe you wanted a hardcover of Eberron, but even then we'll get POD eventually.

So again, I'm not sure what there is to complain about that isn't based upon some variation of "But you didn't cater exactly to my particular desires!"


----------



## Warbringer (Jul 24, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> Care to share what you're talking about?




Now partly in jest, but of course Star Wars - less the development but more the attitude - "we don't need these old gronards who've supported the franchise telling us how to run our franchise." ... maybe only partly in jest.

Now, I don't think there's a political agenda here, and I doubt there is even this type of thinking, and I for one look forward to adding this book to the over 200 D&D books on the bookshelf.


----------



## Mercurius (Jul 24, 2018)

Warbringer said:


> Now partly in jest, but of course Star Wars - less the development but more the attitude - "we don't need these old gronards who've supported the franchise telling us how to run our franchise." ... maybe only partly in jest.
> 
> Now, I don't think there's a political agenda here, and I doubt there is even this type of thinking, and I for one look forward to adding this book to the over 200 D&D books on the bookshelf.




OK, I hear you about Star Wars. I haven't loved anything since Return of the Jedi.

But Star Wars and D&D are different in a way that makes all the difference. Star Wars has a canonical story with a limited number of options in the form of films. D&D has many worlds, different ways of playing the game and making it your own. Having a piss-poor actor(s) play Anakin Skywalker "taints" the legacy of Darth Vader; you can't ignore meticlurians (sp); and you can't un-see Leia flying through space. It happened in the official version of the story. You can, at best, only re-watch the original trilogy and, in your own mind, consider everything else as fan-fiction.

With D&D, you don't have to buy Ravnica. You don't have to buy the Eberron PDF but can, if you want, wait for the more finished product and get the POD. And most of all, you can make your own game with whatever combination of materials from 44 years of publication history.

And more so, they ARE listening to grognards and hardcore fans. Thus Eberron. Presumably we'll see other "classic" settings. What they _aren't _doing, thankfully, is taking too seriously the vocal minority of folks who will complain about anything that doesn't cater to their own specific needs. These voices are always going to be there, just like everything Thanksgiving gathering has a "drunk uncle" who you just kind of have to tolerate and accept as part of the family, but not take too seriously or get offended by his outdated perspective of the world.


----------



## Pauper (Jul 24, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> Only now?
> 
> I remain in my state of perplexity about the lack of MtG DnD content..




It does lend some credibility to the 'Magic needs more revenue sources' argument. But most folks I've spoken with** at WotC who work on D&D have consistently said that, while the D&D folks have always been curious about doing Magic-related D&D stuff, the Magic team has always resisted, usually citing revenue as the sticking point.

** - These are conversations I've had mostly in passing at conventions, always off-the-record, and I wouldn't say I'm particularly 'in' with WotC folks; plus they might have their own reasons for putting the onus on 'no Magic in my D&D' on the Magic folks, so feel free to take that with as large a grain of salt as you need to.

--
Pauper


----------



## ZeshinX (Jul 24, 2018)

They crossed the streams...in actual, physical printed product.

*shrug*

I won't buy it, and it seems every molecule in my body hasn't exploded at the speed of light....good for those wanting this though, so awesome for them.


----------



## Rils (Jul 24, 2018)

I could honestly care less about Ravnica as a setting, it didn't grab me in MtG either.  But what I _am_ excited about is the potential of Guild-as-backgrounds mechanics, and if/how they differ from generic backgrounds.  If the Ravnica Guilds create some interesting mechanical options, from there it would be very simple to use them an official template for Planescape Factions, which is really what I want!


----------



## Ratskinner (Jul 24, 2018)

variant said:


> Are you saying Wizard's didn't have confidence in their Magic the Gathering brand for the two decades they've owned D&D and never did crossovers? They are trying to generate more revenue. It's been the growth of D&D that's keeping Wizard's numbers not appearing as bad. We will never know if they will internally categorize a Magic the Gathering campaign setting under D&D or Magic the Gathering.




Obviously this is total speculation on my part, but I recall soon after WotC bought D&D way back in the before time, that D&Ders were outraged and declaring the apocalypse because for sure WotC was going to drop all the old settings and start releasing Magic  planes as settings....I also seem to recall WotC publicly stating that they had no intention of crossing the streams at that time. Whether that desire to keep them separate was part of a "calm down, people" strategy or an effort to protect the MtG brand (which was and I believe still is doing way way better that D&D has ever done) from contamination by this flagging property (don't forget another company had gone belly up trying to work D&D) is an unknown for me.

Either way, I think that initial reaction played a part in their conspicuously avoiding it at first, then it just became something that wasn't done, then it became something they could play with in UA articles, and now its something that people are asking "Why did they wait 20 years to do this?"

IMO, AFAICT


----------



## MNblockhead (Jul 24, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> POD would be terrible for the current book, it is not complete (it doesn't include the artificer yet) and the material is still play-test material which will be updated once feedback has been received. It's essentially like buying an early access game off steam. Once the PDF is updated and complete, then POD will likely be available.




Maybe, but some people just like to have things in print and POD allows companies to cater to this long tail and make a bit a of money off of it. If they are worried about lesser quality printed materials out in the wild hurting their brand, they could make it obvious on the cover that it is a POD book. 

Heck, Pathfinder is printing a 400+ playtest version of their 2nd edition players handbook. So there are obviously folks who find selling and buying playtest material in print format to not be a terrible idea.


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 24, 2018)

MNblockhead said:


> Heck, Pathfinder is printing a 400+ playtest version of their 2nd edition players handbook. So there are obviously folks who find selling and buying playtest material in print format to not be a terrible idea.



Well, there are obviously folks who find _selling_ playtest material to not be a terrible idea. Technically nobody has _bought_ it yet.


----------



## Steffen Haeuser (Jul 24, 2018)

A planet only consisting of city sounds weird to me. Where do they get
the food for the people? Also it removes all options to do a noncity
adventure.


----------



## AtomicPope (Jul 24, 2018)

Steffen Haeuser said:


> A planet only consisting of city sounds weird to me. Where do they get
> the food for the people? Also it removes all options to do a noncity
> adventure.




Coruscant from Star Wars comes to mind.  So unless the setting is Spelljammer where you could leave the planet, you're right it's very limited.


----------



## AtomicPope (Jul 24, 2018)

The name "Ravnica" sounds like she would be the sister of "Lavernica", Britta's D&D character from Community.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Jul 24, 2018)

The background of the RPG are like LEGO or other building toys, you can as you want and it hasn't to be like in the cover of the box. If I want I can create a mash-up of Ravenloft, for example, mixing things with Kult:lost divinity, World of Darkness, Innistrad and Castlevania.

I imagine a d20 Planewalker as a psionic but with different pools of power points, one for each color of mana. Each morning the power points can be distributed in the different color, a day the half of pp in black mana but two days later 2/3 in white mana, and some magic powers would need something like a single-use magic-item who the planewalker "reload" each new day.

There is a open door for the MtG's multiverse to be added to the D&D worlds, and maybe for videogames but no only about trading-card duels.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 24, 2018)

Steffen Haeuser said:


> A planet only consisting of city sounds weird to me. Where do they get
> the food for the people? Also it removes all options to do a noncity
> adventure.




One of the fun things about fantasy and science fiction is finding interesting answers to that kind of problem. I'm hoping the writers don't disappoint.

As for the lack of wildness adventuring, well the point of having different campaign settings is to offer a different experience, and if that experience isn't for you, then to choose a different setting. After all, you can only use one setting at a time.

WEG Star Wars D6 explicitly suggests that the way to create a Star Wars planet is to choose one environment that exists on Earth and expand it to planet size.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 24, 2018)

MNblockhead said:


> Maybe, but some people just like to have things in print and POD allows companies to cater to this long tail and make a bit a of money off of it. If they are worried about lesser quality printed materials out in the wild hurting their brand, they could make it obvious on the cover that it is a POD book.
> 
> Heck, Pathfinder is printing a 400+ playtest version of their 2nd edition players handbook. So there are obviously folks who find selling and buying playtest material in print format to not be a terrible idea.




Paizo did the same thing with the playtest material for the 1st edition of Pathfinder, so nothing new there.

As for POD for the Eberron book, Mearls did post on Twitter that POD will not be an available option til the final version of the PDF is released after all the playtesting/revisions. His words:

"Lot of people asking about this for Eberron - not until the content is 100% sealed. Mechanics will run through UA and be updated in the PDF. Once those are done - and artificer added - we'll turn on POD."


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## MagicSN (Jul 24, 2018)

>One of the fun things about fantasy and science fiction is finding  interesting answers to that kind of problem. I'm hoping the writers  don't >disappoint.

Yes, that's my point, something like that should not be ignored in the setting. Such a huge amount of people need to be nourished...

>As for the lack of wildness adventuring, well the point of having  different campaign settings is to offer a different experience, and if  that experience >isn't for you, then to choose a different setting. After  all, you can only use one setting at a time.

Sure. I just wondered why make it not logical from the start when doing a new setting. Why not just make it a BIG city instead of a PLANETWIDE city?

I do not say the setting is "not for me", actually I found it pretty interesting to do a full MtG Setting. And I think a new D&D Setting is pretty interesting as well. I just wonder on that "planetwide city" thing. It just doesn't sound consistent to me. I didn't mean to "bad-word" the whole thing, I just wonder how this should work.

Agreed to AtomicPope, if there are means to leave the planet and they could export/import from/to other planets, it would actually "work", but if you can't then not.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 24, 2018)

A Big City is generic*. Pretty much any setting can have one, including RL. A World city is fantastical. And having fantastical things is the whole point of SF/Fantasy.



*See: Waterdeep


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## MagicSN (Jul 24, 2018)

>A Big City is generic*. Pretty much any setting can have one, including RL. A World city is fantastical. And having fantastical things is the whole point of SF/Fantasy.

Sure, "think fantastic" is good. But throwing all logic out of the window isn't. But well, we will see - maybe this is some SciFi-mixed-with-Fantasy like setting after all, with possibility to go to other planets (I have to admit I do not know too much about MtG-Worlds asides from playing it as a cardgame). I guess we will see when it is released.

>*See: Waterdeep 

Waterdeep is not "planet-wide", and has all sorts of means to get nourishments for the people of the city.


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## cbwjm (Jul 24, 2018)

MagicSN said:


> >One of the fun things about fantasy and science fiction is finding  interesting answers to that kind of problem. I'm hoping the writers  don't >disappoint.
> 
> Yes, that's my point, something like that should not be ignored in the setting. Such a huge amount of people need to be nourished...
> 
> ...



It isn't a big city because when they made Ravnica for MtG they wanted a plane that was one planar spanning city. As for food production, that and waste disposal is managed by the Golgari, the green/black guild.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 24, 2018)

MagicSN said:


> >A Big City is generic*. Pretty much any setting can have one, including RL. A World city is fantastical. And having fantastical things is the whole point of SF/Fantasy.
> 
> Sure, "think fantastic" is good. But throwing all logic out of the window isn't. But well, we will see - maybe this is some SciFi-mixed-with-Fantasy like setting after all, with possibility to go to other planets (I have to admit I do not know too much about MtG-Worlds asides from playing it as a cardgame). I guess we will see when it is released.
> 
> ...




That's the point. Waterdeep is a genetic fantasy big city. If you want a big city that isn't planetwide, you can use the Waterdeep stuff (which can be easily adapted to other settings if required).


There is no evidence that "All logic is being thrown out the window". Every problem has a solution, the more knotty the problem, the more interesting the solution. And that can lead to interesting stories. Fancy a bite of Solent Green?


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## MidwayHaven (Jul 24, 2018)

Steffen Haeuser said:


> A planet only consisting of city sounds weird to me. Where do they get
> the food for the people? Also it removes all options to do a noncity
> adventure.




Food is provided predomimantly by the Golgari guild, which basically uses druidic/necromantic ways to dispose and recycle organic stuff.

As for travel to and from Ravnica, at least the first three novels explicitly state that it's self-contained; planar travel is at first impossible due to the Guildpact's strictions. This has since been loosened at the end of the 3rd novel, though I don't know what "time period" the Guildmasters' Guide would be set in whether it's the novels period, the "Living Guildpact" time period, or the upcoming card expansion's period.


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## MagicSN (Jul 24, 2018)

MidwayHaven said:


> Food is provided predomimantly by the Golgari guild, which basically uses druidic/necromantic ways to dispose and recycle organic stuff.
> 
> As for travel to and from Ravnica, at least the first three novels explicitly state that it's self-contained; planar travel is at first impossible due to the Guildpact's strictions. This has since been loosened at the end of the 3rd novel, though I don't know what "time period" the Guildmasters' Guide would be set in whether it's the novels period, the "Living Guildpact" time period, or the upcoming card expansion's period.




Okay. Maybe I just know too little about MtG worlds ;-) "Just a city" just sounded to me that agriculture is out of the question. But after your explanation it sounds to me that "it is done by magic". Anyways, thanks for the explanation.


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## schnee (Jul 24, 2018)

The thing about Wizards, is they do a LOT of customer research, with solid methodologies.

They know for a fact: forums users are not typical, and keeping us happy doesn't mean a better product. We often bitch about stuff that isn't even a blip on the radar of most customers. 

And, seeing as this is literally the most successful D&D ever made, they're doing something right.

I might pick it up next campaign if I feel like my well of ideas is running dry.


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## vhm74 (Jul 24, 2018)

First 5e book I'm skipping. I'll stick to FR books, or any other classic D&D setting WOTC might consider recovering. But imho this is no D&D, so I'll pass.


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## MidwayHaven (Jul 24, 2018)

I guess the cover of the book looks *slightly* misleading, which may be why Ravnica could be confused as being high-tech. It shows a wizard of the Izzet, guild of innovation, whose Parun (Guild founder) is a very ancient dragon. 

In fact, Ravnica is as fantastic a world as any other previously published for D&D, in some ways even more so. The green guilds (Selesnya, Gruul, Simic, Golgari) give the plane a sense that Ravnica isn't devoid of nature; in fact many buildings are grown from organic material.

I've been homebrewing D&D games set on Ravnica ever since the world came out in MtG in 2004. "Guildmasters' Guide" is THE accessory which definitely has my purchase.


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## Ratskinner (Jul 24, 2018)

Steffen Haeuser said:


> A planet only consisting of city sounds weird to me. Where do they get
> the food for the people? Also it removes all options to do a noncity
> adventure.



Some of the green guilds take care of it, with massive gardens, greenhouses, etc. Also, with Ravnica, it would be more accurate to say that the world has no "wild" or "untouched" areas left than to call it all a functioning city. Some places that have been abandoned for a while get recycled, architecture and all.

 IIRC correctly, the first set of novels had a scene where some kind of giant elemental was crashing around in such a wild district. I vaguely recall the urban heroes feeling weirded out by all the unkempt trees, etc.


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## Fandabidozi (Jul 24, 2018)

Loved Ravnica back in the day, it was the last set of MtG I played before I burned out. 
I remember saying at the time it was a similar setting to Eberron, which makes the timing of the two announcements now  a nice coincidence for me.


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## Acolyte of Zothique (Jul 24, 2018)

I haven't read through this entire thread as it's too long so not sure if this has been mentioned; on Dragon Talk Jeremy Crawford states this book has a Bestiary almost as big as the one in MToF.
Mostly new monsters which I assume are converted from MTG in general and Ravnica specifically.

Also, the following are in the book: new subclasses including the Circle of Spores Druid and Order Domain Cleric; Minotaur and Centaurs as well as rules for how each Guild tracks renown and provides access to new spells (useful for Planescape). Even if you don't want to use the setting itself this book is very handy for lifting stuff into your own campaign. I'm sold on it; bring it on!


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## robus (Jul 24, 2018)

vhm74 said:


> First 5e book I'm skipping. I'll stick to FR books, or any other classic D&D setting WOTC might consider recovering. But imho this is no D&D, so I'll pass.




This attitude puzzles me. D&D, IMO, is not defined by its settings. It’s a role playing game system that can be applied to a vast number of settings. For me, I would like to run every adventure in a “virgin” setting so that I, as DM, get the joy of exploration and discovery as much as my players.

FR, to me, is like visiting Epcot. Sure it was great when it first opened, but now it’s just tired and well trodden. Heck Spaceship Earth still ends in the 80s!


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## robus (Jul 24, 2018)

Acolyte of Zothique said:


> I haven't read through this entire thread as it's too long so not sure if this has been mentioned; on Dragon Talk Jeremy Crawford states this book has a Bestiary almost as big as the one in MToF.
> Mostly new monsters which I assume are converted from MTG in general and Ravnica specifically.
> 
> Also, the following are in the book: new subclasses including the Circle of Spores Druid and Order Domain Cleric; Minotaur and Centaurs as well as rules for how each Guild tracks renown and provides access to new spells (useful for Planescape). Even if you don't want to use the setting itself this book is very handy for lifting stuff into your own campaign. I'm sold on it; bring it on!




What seems cool to me is that if the book just scratches the surface of Ravnica, it opens up the possibility of DMs Guild fan supplements to fill in the other regions (and expand on the monsters, if necessary)


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 24, 2018)

robus said:


> This attitude puzzles me. D&D, IMO, is not defined by its settings.



Haven't you heard? "D&D" is whatever settings happen to have been published by the time the speaker began playing, no less and no more!


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 24, 2018)

AtomicPope said:


> Coruscant from Star Wars comes to mind.  So unless the setting is Spelljammer where you could leave the planet, you're right it's very limited.



*Steve:* Hey, Stan, I've got a great new idea for a superhero! It's a teenage kid in New York who's bitten by a radioactive spider!
*Stan:* Great! When does he leave New York?
*Steve:* No, he stays in New York.
*Stan:* Hmm, very limited idea. Pass.


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## Gradine (Jul 24, 2018)

My heart belongs to Eberron, but this definitely has me intrigued. Having unarguably the coolest looking cover art so far in 5e certainly helps.


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## Andrea Rocci (Jul 24, 2018)

I salute the first genuinely new thing done under the solid but hyper-conservative 5th edition. After revisiting classic modules (Ravenloft, Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, Undermountain, the classic dungeons book) and dwelling in the classic setting of the forgotten Realms, reviving Mordenkainen, talking about the Gith and their wars... Ravnica comes as a breath of fresh air!


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 24, 2018)

Gradine said:


> My heart belongs to Eberron, but this definitely has me intrigued. Having unarguably the coolest looking cover art so far in 5e certainly helps.



Eh. When I first saw the art (out of context, with no title), I truly and honestly thought it was Marvel's Riri Williams.

I gotta give it to _Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes_.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 24, 2018)

I think the book will have the School of Invention, as it certainly looks like the Arcanomechanical Armor that's the main feature of the subclass which is on the cover.


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## Gradine (Jul 24, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Eh. When I first saw the art (out of context, with no title), I truly and honestly thought it was Marvel's Riri Williams.




I guess? It's a bit of a stretch. I mean, Ironheart's pretty awesome too, so I don't see anything wrong with that.



> I gotta give it to _Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes_.




If you're talking the alt cover, then _maaaaayyybe_


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## Philip F Goding (Jul 24, 2018)

I've been reading this thread now for several days and all the speculation and theories based on all the evidence which is somewhat conflicting and what makes sense in accordance with our own perspectives and it's been quite amazing to me.

First, when we talk about "classic" settings I don't ever think of a setting which has only existed since 2004. I've been playing since 1979 and at this time there was Greyhawk and Blackmoor (or Mystara) and maybe Kalibruhn. Those are the worlds of E Gary Gygax, Dave Arneson and Rob Kuntz. The first thing I played in was the Holmes sample (and incomplete) dungeon The Tower of Zenopus and then we were looking for The Cave of the Unknown for Keep On the Borderlands. We waited a long time for Temple of Elemental Evil and many other things. I tended to set everything in Greyhawk, but I could have used settings from Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes or later Deities and Demi-Gods which became Legends & Lore, which features many real-world settings such as Arthurian, Greek, Norse etc or setting from fiction such as Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, Moorcock's Melnibone, REH's Hyperborea of Conan, Red Sonja etc or Nehwon. You could also piece together your own Middle Earth based on Tolkein's works.

The first "new" setting that came along was Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms and it came piece by piece in Dragon magazine. I just put everything I liked from that into Greyhawk. When Forgotten Realms finally came out I wasn't interested and it became the main setting of AD&D 2nd edition and I went away for a while. The only new setting at that time I ran was Dragonlance. Ravenloft to me was sort of an extension of FR. I played a bit in FR and Ravenloft only because that was the setting my (then) DM's used, but when 3rd edition came along I was back DMing in Greyhawk full force and playing in Kalamar. When Eberron came along it looked like FR all over again only way better, but I never played 4th edition. 

The thing I don't like about 5th edition is that the main setting is again The Realms, but to make matters worse a good portion of the material and seasons of AL have clearly been ripped off from Greyhawk and recycled into FR. To an extend that makes it easy to port over to Greyhawk, but it's still annoying. The most interesting things have been the upcoming Waterdeep and Undermountain books which are easily turned into Greyhawk and Castle Greyhawk. The interesting thing about them though is you start to move towards being able to visit other settings. That is we are moving towards what I really love. 

The announcement of other settings was exciting and of course I thought Eberron would be coming along as well as Planescape, Spelljammer, The Chronomancer, Manual of the Planes and so on. Using Ravnica now makes a lot of sense to me, but that's not until November after the Waterdeep and Undermountain books. In the meantime although it's not 100% ready to go we have Eberron now! The final version of which could conceivably be ready before November. Is Ravnica more ready to go than Eberron? Maybe or maybe not.

The disappointing thing to me is there is no "classic" setting here yet. I don't exactly consider FR a classic setting although I could accept it as one if you think it is. Likewise my feelings about Dragonlance, Kara Tur, Ravenloft, Dark Sun and others, but I absolutely do not accept Eberron as classic. It to me is still bright and shiny new. It does however fit into what I love about the ability to visit different and diverse settings in the multiverse and Ravnica does this too and displaces Eberron as the newest setting. That's the thing I don't really like about Forgotten Realms though is that it's not that different than Greyhawk. They are like mirror images of each other and easy to port material back and forth unlike most of the other settings, which offer greater differences.

So what are the hopes that WotC might be planning settings that I would call classic? I don't know, but this calling Eberron classic lessens those hopes significantly, but we'll see as we go along. Seems to me though that the plan for 5th edition has always been to put products out slow and make sure they've got them right as well as always make sure there is something new coming. One might say this could also be taken as "milking" the market, but you are always trying to at least maintain a balance that sustains and doesn't drive away your market and doesn't flood the market. Recycling material is part of that as is listening to what the base wants. What we have announced now is a product of the market research and we have no idea what they are looking at for the future. 

We look at financial numbers and rationalize all sorts of speculation, but we don't really know. I would like to see a reunion with all the remaining original founders of D&D and whomsoever holds the rights to any of the original material. That is the sort of unifying vision they seem to be working to put forth and maintain for the D&D community. Welcoming every new player and making it a good experience and getting away from being gate keepers of the rules and continuity or what is or isn't canon, so much of the fun of this is improv. The rules get bent all the time, get over it because this has to be about having a fun time and developing relationships. I know we have feelings and distress about certain things, but we don't want to be feeling bad about any of this really. None of us could ever have things 100% the way we want 100% of the time. This is about sacrificing pieces of that 100% and seeing what happens. It might be unexpectedly ok or better than we feared or we might even like it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained after all. Life tends to be about taking risks, not playing it safe all the time. Sometimes it works out well and sometimes not so well, but we learn something in either case, but not if we don't take some action beyond our comfort zone.


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## Satyrn (Jul 24, 2018)

Steffen Haeuser said:


> A planet only consisting of city sounds weird to me. Where do they get
> the food for the people? Also it removes all options to do a noncity
> adventure.




Cities do have parkland, though. A planet-spanning city might gave some very large parks, and there's the possibility that a sprawling underdark could function as a monster filled wilderness.

And maybe there are rundown parts of the city that are so neglected by the Law and Bureaucrats that these areas are an unban wilderness.

I think these work as a sort of non-city adventure location while still technically in the city


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## mach1.9pants (Jul 24, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Eh. When I first saw the art (out of context, with no title), I truly and honestly thought it was Marvel's Riri Williams.
> 
> I gotta give it to _Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes_.



Yeah unarguably best art is hyperbole, I don't like it. Techno lightning lady in a portrait, anything with an actual party and/or something happening is better


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## Philip F Goding (Jul 24, 2018)

At some point in this thread some folks starting discussing that if the whole planet is just this one city where does the food come from (let alone where does the waste go)?

First, of course there are ways to grow food in a city. If we are talking about growing plants some folks use greenhouses, grow plants on the roof, use hydroponics and other methods that are being used today to grow food in cities where little if any space is used for gardens. Then of course there is the raising of animals for food, which could be done. Someone mentioned Soylent Green of course. This reminds me of Mega City One from Judge Dredd where the population is packed into these blocks and there is little space to grow food and the land outside the city is not usable. 

Of course we are talking about a world where magic is used and could be used to create food or take food from other worlds. I suspect that the world of Ravnica could be a trading hub and there could be portals to other worlds like in Stargate. However it is, assume that there is a solution that has been developed for this problem and it will be interesting to see what that workable solution is rather than assume the whole idea is stupid because you can't imagine a solution that satisfies you. This is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater thinking.


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## Kite474 (Jul 24, 2018)

Philip F Goding said:


> At some point in this thread some folks starting discussing that if the whole planet is just this one city where does the food come from (let alone where does the waste go)?
> 
> First, of course there are ways to grow food in a city. If we are talking about growing plants some folks use greenhouses, grow plants on the roof, use hydroponics and other methods that are being used today to grow food in cities where little if any space is used for gardens. Then of course there is the raising of animals for food, which could be done. Someone mentioned Soylent Green of course. This reminds me of Mega City One from Judge Dredd where the population is packed into these blocks and there is little space to grow food and the land outside the city is not usable.
> 
> Of course we are talking about a world where magic is used and could be used to create food or take food from other worlds. I suspect that the world of Ravnica could be a trading hub and there could be portals to other worlds like in Stargate. However it is, assume that there is a solution that has been developed for this problem and it will be interesting to see what that workable solution is rather than assume the whole idea is stupid because you can't imagine a solution that satisfies you. This is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater thinking.




In Ravnica the food is grown in urban farms and or underground and EVERYTHING is recycled by the Golgori to the point you probbably dont want to know where your lunch comes from

as for water 

View attachment 99661View attachment 99661

They got alot


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## Philip F Goding (Jul 24, 2018)

Kite474 said:


> In Ravnica the food is grown in urban farms and or underground and EVERYTHING is recycled by the Golgori to the point you probbably dont want to know where your lunch comes from
> 
> as for water
> 
> ...




Well, there you go then.

I can get along with not knowing what the Soylent (Pick your favorite color) is made from and as long as the waste doesn't go into the water everything is fine.


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## Yaarel (Jul 25, 2018)

AtomicPope said:


> Coruscant from Star Wars comes to mind.  So unless the setting is Spelljammer where you could leave the planet, you're right it's very limited.




Ravinca, a sprawling endless city.

Heh, Toronto Canada comes to mind.


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## Tony Vargas (Jul 25, 2018)

robus said:


> This attitude puzzles me. D&D, IMO, is not defined by its settings. It’s a role playing game system that can be applied to a vast number of settings.



 D&D is a game system that defines a lot about it's settings, though.  Like, oh, the way magic works.  

The old multiverse conceit from back in the day, though, implied that every DM could run in his own 'world,' and we do have a lot of D&D settings, some of them (OK, most of 'em) just the world some insider was running...

Anyway, cross-pollenating M:tG and D&D is something so obvious I'm surprised WotC never did it before (OK: Fortune Cards, granted) - maybe this is the first time D&D has been successful enough to be deemed 'worthy' of such an alliance?


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 25, 2018)

Gradine said:


> I guess? It's a bit of a stretch. I mean, Ironheart's pretty awesome too, so I don't see anything wrong with that.



I'm pretty familiar with Ravnica, and the first thing I thought when I saw the art wasn't "Ravnica" or "Magic/D&D" even "fantasy setting". It was a different franchise from a different company in a different genre. That's what I'm getting at.

(I mean, at the very least put Niv-Mizzet front and center. Both because he's distinct and recognizable, and because he will not accept being in the background of anything.)


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## robus (Jul 25, 2018)

Philip F Goding said:


> Well, there you go then.
> 
> I can get along with not knowing what the Soylent (Pick your favorite color) is made from and as long as the waste doesn't go into the water everything is fine.




Well there’s 5 colors of soylent surely?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 25, 2018)

US Amazon has updated the listings for the book, map pack and dice set to include prices and release date. No discounts on any of them yet, though. Also, the back cover of the book is now in the listing, so you can read the text on it. Nothing specifically says the book includes any adventures, but the text on the map pack says it includes maps of adventure locations. So it looks like there will at least be adventure seeds included.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 25, 2018)

Philip F Goding said:


> Well, there you go then.
> 
> I can get along with not knowing what the Soylent (Pick your favorite color) is made from and as long as the waste doesn't go into the water everything is fine.




If bodies are getting recycled, it will suck to be a necromancer in this setting!


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## cbwjm (Jul 25, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> If bodies are getting recycled, it will suck to be a necromancer in this setting!



Unless bodies are being recycled into undead servitors.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 25, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> Unless bodies are being recycled into undead servitors.




You can eat, or you can have undead servitors.


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## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> I think the book will have the School of Invention, as it certainly looks like the Arcanomechanical Armor that's the main feature of the subclass which is on the cover.




 I think people would have graded the subclass very differently if it hadn't been presented as the generalists wizard and had been put in it's proper context.


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## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

Yaarel said:


> Ravinca, a sprawling endless city.
> 
> Heh, Toronto Canada comes to mind.




 The GTA is huge and does include urban farms and Parks.


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## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

Philip F Goding said:


> I've been reading this thread now for several days and all the speculation and theories based on all the evidence which is somewhat conflicting and what makes sense in accordance with our own perspectives and it's been quite amazing to me.
> 
> First, when we talk about "classic" settings I don't ever think of a setting which has only existed since 2004. I've been playing since 1979 and at this time there was Greyhawk and Blackmoor (or Mystara) and maybe Kalibruhn. Those are the worlds of E Gary Gygax, Dave Arneson and Rob Kuntz. The first thing I played in was the Holmes sample (and incomplete) dungeon The Tower of Zenopus and then we were looking for The Cave of the Unknown for Keep On the Borderlands. We waited a long time for Temple of Elemental Evil and many other things. I tended to set everything in Greyhawk, but I could have used settings from Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes or later Deities and Demi-Gods which became Legends & Lore, which features many real-world settings such as Arthurian, Greek, Norse etc or setting from fiction such as Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, Moorcock's Melnibone, REH's Hyperborea of Conan, Red Sonja etc or Nehwon. You could also piece together your own Middle Earth based on Tolkein's works.
> 
> ...




 Anything that appeared before 2e is absolutely a super classic,  2e Classic,  3e middle aged,  4e all grown up,  5e the new kid on the block.


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## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

Ratskinner said:


> Some of the green guilds take care of it, with massive gardens, greenhouses, etc. Also, with Ravnica, it would be more accurate to say that the world has no "wild" or "untouched" areas left than to call it all a functioning city. Some places that have been abandoned for a while get recycled, architecture and all.
> 
> IIRC correctly, the first set of novels had a scene where some kind of giant elemental was crashing around in such a wild district. I vaguely recall the urban heroes feeling weirded out by all the unkempt trees, etc.




 So parts of Ravnica are like Detroit and Flint?


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 25, 2018)

gyor said:


> I think people would have graded the subclass very differently if it hadn't been presented as the generalists wizard and had been put in it's proper context.



Yeah, in retrospect, it's absolutely 100% the Izzet subclass.


----------



## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

vhm74 said:


> First 5e book I'm skipping. I'll stick to FR books, or any other classic D&D setting WOTC might consider recovering. But imho this is no D&D, so I'll pass.




 From what Jeremy said it is D&D, they didn't put in any magic the gathering metasetting details like Mana and colours and you can visit it from portals, Planes, Spelljammers and spells.

  In fact if one wasn't familiar with MtG one might not know it was anything other then a D&D setting.


----------



## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Yeah, in retrospect, it's absolutely 100% the Izzet subclass.




 I would have been far kinder to the subclass had I known that before doing the survey,  instead of coming it to the Lore Wizard.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 25, 2018)

gyor said:


> I think people would have graded the subclass very differently if it hadn't been presented as the generalists wizard and had been put in it's proper context.




Agreed. I just couldn't envision it for anything other than a tinker gnome.


----------



## The Big BZ (Jul 25, 2018)

vhm74 said:


> First 5e book I'm skipping. I'll stick to FR books, or any other classic D&D setting WOTC might consider recovering. But imho this is no D&D, so I'll pass.




I played D&D from the late 80's to the late 90's and when I picked it up again when 5e came out I said "What's an Ebberon?"

To me it doesn't feel like D&D but you know what it is.  And there's some guy out there who could say the same about Dark Sun, FR etc "Bah humbug Blackmoor or nothing"

One person's classic setting is another person's damn kids get off my lawn horrible innovation.

Ravnica will be no different


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 25, 2018)

Would someone familiar with the setting like to suggest a Ravnica reading list, so I can get properly hyped?


----------



## MidwayHaven (Jul 25, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Would someone familiar with the setting like to suggest a Ravnica reading list, so I can get properly hyped?




View attachment 99734

The three novels could help out; they're formatted basically like separate stories with convergences:

*RAVNICA: CITY OF GUILDS *follows Agrus Kos, a human Boros guild officer as he tracks down a series of crimes to a hidden guild (the Dimir guild; Ravnica's citizens don't know it exists). It also introduces Fonn (a Selesnya guild elf) and Jarad (a Golgari guild dark elf) as they explore Ravnica's undercity.

*GUILDPACT* follows baroness Teysa Karlov, a human Orzhov guild lawyer and how she discovers that her own guild may have been tricking her. It also follows a female Izzet goblin named Crix as she helps out in a reclamation zone.

*DISSENSION* returns to Agrus Kos, who's now a ghost, along with how Teysa helps him uncover an Azorius guild conspiracy. Jarad and Fonn now have a son, who's torn about what guild he wants to join. It's here where (during a sort-of court trial) Ravnica is described as isolated from the rest of the multiverse because of the Guildpact that contained it 10,000 years ago; in fact, it's so self-contained that not even the spirits of the dead can escape. At this point, the novel basically describes Ravnica in the throes  of what could only be described as "_London Has Fallen_": a giant floating vessel crashes into the Azorius guild's chancery, the Rakdos guild (and their demon leader) wreak havoc in the streets, the Simic guild have released a mutant titan, and _an entire ghost plane overlays itself on the city_. In the end, with the collapse of the Old Guildpact, Teysa crafts a new non-magical Guildpact that seeks to restore order.

These were the only novels crafted for Ravnica; ever since then, it's been implied that Teysa's non-magical Guildpact was pretty much ineffective and the old order was eventually restored. A powerful planeswalker named Jace eventually became the "Living Guildpact" (whatever that means) to rebalance the powers of Ravnica.


----------



## Keefe the Thief (Jul 25, 2018)

I'm looking forward to the year 2025 when Wizards will put a New Crobuzon setting out for D&D and the Ravnica nerds will be upset that there is still no new hardcover for their oldschool setting.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 25, 2018)

MidwayHaven said:


> View attachment 99734
> 
> The three novels could help out; they're formatted basically like separate stories with convergences:
> 
> ...




Thanks, unfortunately can't see them listed on Amazon UK.


----------



## Remathilis (Jul 25, 2018)

MidwayHaven said:


> A powerful planeswalker named Jace eventually became the "Living Guildpact" (whatever that means) to rebalance the powers of Ravnica.




Oh Jace. You all think Drizzt is a Mary Sue...


----------



## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> Oh Jace. You all think Drizzt is a Mary Sue...




 I don't think is a Mary Sue at all.


----------



## schnee (Jul 25, 2018)

Yaarel said:


> Ravinca, a sprawling endless city.
> 
> Heh, Toronto Canada comes to mind.




I've been fortunate enough to travel. Istanbul and Tokyo are _mind-blowingly_ huge. 

I've also done some games in Planescape.

I think the right city can just about provide everything. Even isolation, if it's in a part of it that's been flattened for some (awesome campaign) reason.


----------



## Gradine (Jul 25, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> I'm pretty familiar with Ravnica, and the first thing I thought when I saw the art wasn't "Ravnica" or "Magic/D&D" even "fantasy setting". It was a different franchise from a different company in a different genre. That's what I'm getting at.
> 
> (I mean, at the very least put Niv-Mizzet front and center. Both because he's distinct and recognizable, and because he will not accept being in the background of anything.)




Having stopped playing M:TG roughly around the time _The Weatherlight_ was a thing, I don't really know much about Ravnica myself. My assumption was that this character was a fairly iconic unique/planeswalker type to the setting. However, some light research failed to turn up exactly who she is. Nevertheless, she's certainly evocative of _a_ setting (if not the Ravnica you're familiar with), and it's a setting I'm pretty damn excited to play in.


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 25, 2018)

Gradine said:


> Having stopped playing M:TG roughly around the time _The Weatherlight_ was a thing, I don't really know much about Ravnica myself. My assumption was that this character was a fairly iconic unique/planeswalker type to the setting.



Nope. That would be the dragon in the background (and the point bears repeating: Niv-Mizzet _never_ allows himself to be in the background).


----------



## JacktheRabbit (Jul 25, 2018)

I know nothing about this setting, based purely on the picture I want to ask, is this a "magic-punk" setting?


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## Kite474 (Jul 25, 2018)

JacktheRabbit said:


> I know nothing about this setting, based purely on the picture I want to ask, is this a "magic-punk" setting?




No, not really. Out of the ten guilds that rule the place, only the Izzet do weird techno-magic. Everyone else is still packing a crap ton of magic though. 

It's a faction war intrigue setting like Sigil. Except for instead of being combative philosophers its the Guilds are all competing governmental organs


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## Kite474 (Jul 25, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> Oh Jace. You all think Drizzt is a Mary Sue...




Honestly? He really isn't actually, dude losses most of his fights have generally complicated relationships with everyone and keeps getting his damned mind whiped every 5 seconds.

His reputation is more caused by the cards than anything. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myi-jxhxOnM&t=803s


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 25, 2018)

I have no idea what's been done with Jace in recent years--I admit I stopped following the stories a while ago--but I certainly tried to make him flawed and fallible in _Agents of Artifice_. It's not even that I have a moral or professional objection to Mary Sue characters, I just don't find them interesting to write (or, usually, to read).

From what I've read here, I take it he's gone back to Ravnica and become someone/something of vital importance?


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## Kite474 (Jul 25, 2018)

Mouseferatu said:


> I have no idea what's been done with Jace in recent years--I admit I stopped following the stories a while ago--but I certainly tried to make him flawed and fallible in _Agents of Artifice_. It's not even that I have a moral or professional objection to Mary Sue characters, I just don't find them interesting to write (or, usually, to read).
> 
> From what I've read here, I take it he's gone back to Ravnica and become someone/something of vital importance?




Basically, all the Guilds figured out a well of power that could allow one to rule them all. So in order to stop an all-out war, they decide to make it a Race to said well of power with each guild electing a champion. Jace represented the Gateless (folks who have no guild affiliation) and won. So he basically became a sort satteled with the job of Trans Guild peacekeeper. It comes with some pretty nifty powers but only applies to Ravnica and Ravnican citizens.

Unfortunately has been gone from Ravnica for the past 6 months or so after being stuck on a Planeswalker Australia... So things are probably hectic


----------



## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

Kite474 said:


> No, not really. Out of the ten guilds that rule the place, only the Izzet do weird techno-magic. Everyone else is still packing a crap ton of magic though.
> 
> It's a faction war intrigue setting like Sigil. Except for instead of being combative philosophers its the Guilds are all competing governmental organs




 I think Simic Combine is also do weird technomagic,  but it's biotechnomagic,  not physics/engineering technomagic like Izzet.


----------



## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

Kite474 said:


> Honestly? He really isn't actually, dude losses most of his fights have generally complicated relationships with everyone and keeps getting his damned mind whiped every 5 seconds.
> 
> His reputation is more caused by the cards than anything.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myi-jxhxOnM&t=803s




 I wouldn't say Drizzt loses most of his fights,  he usually only loses when he goes after someone let's say over his CR.


----------



## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

Kite474 said:


> No, not really. Out of the ten guilds that rule the place, only the Izzet do weird techno-magic. Everyone else is still packing a crap ton of magic though.
> 
> It's a faction war intrigue setting like Sigil. Except for instead of being combative philosophers its the Guilds are all competing governmental organs




 Honestly,  Ravnica gives me a bit of a Shadowrun feel,  but more magitech then Cybertech. Guilds acting like shadowy,, corrupt quasi governments,  usually working through intermediaries and black ops instead of open warfare. But no matrix (unless there is a magitech equivilant Ravnica?)

 Like Ravnica is basically what Eberron would turn into in 150 to 500 years,  but more urbanized then Eberron.


----------



## Kite474 (Jul 25, 2018)

gyor said:


> Honestly,  Ravnica gives me a bit of a Shadowrun feel,  but more magitech then Cybertech. Guilds acting like shadowy,, corrupt quasi governments,  usually working through intermediaries and black ops instead of open warfare. But no matrix (unless there is a magitech equivilant Ravnica?)
> 
> Like Ravnica is basically what Eberron would turn into in 150 to 500 years,  but more urbanized then Eberron.




Thats actually a pretty fair comparison. And one thats probbably alot more apt.


----------



## Philip F Goding (Jul 25, 2018)

robus said:


> Well there’s 5 colors of soylent surely?




And then there are ten combinations of two colors mixed together.



gyor said:


> Anything  that appeared before 2e is absolutely a super classic, 2e Classic,  3e  middle aged,  4e all grown up,  5e the new kid on the block.




OK  I can accept that. I see FR as pretty much AD&D 2e although there  was play test materials coming out in Dragon Magazine before that. The  very first published materials were at the very end of AD&D 1e and  then FR became the main or most supported setting for 2e. Eberron I see  as d20 3.5e as it came at near the beginning of 3.5.



gyor said:


> From  what Jeremy said it is D&D, they didn't put in any magic the  gathering metasetting details like Mana and colours and you can visit it  from portals, Planes, Spelljammers and spells.
> 
> In fact if one wasn't familiar with MtG one might not know it was anything other then a D&D setting.




Now this was the interesting stuff to me. Essentially we already  have Planescape and Spelljammer now that you open things up to visiting  other planes such as Ravenloft and other worlds in the Prime Material  Plane such as Ravnica and Eberron. Portals such as in Yawning Portal  (some of those places were Greyhawk) is one way to visit other places in  the Prime Material Plane, Spelljamming is another. You could  conceivably use a Teleport spell as long as you have the address for  where you want to go and then there is Sigil.

Such things open up  alternative ways Ravnica could be supplied with some enterprising  merchants making deals with like minded folks on other worlds. The  crystal bubbles to pass through in Spelljammer sounds a bit like some  Quantum Physics stuff, but here it's all fantasy based rather than  sci-fi. Good stuff!


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## Remathilis (Jul 25, 2018)

Kite474 said:


> Basically, all the Guilds figured out a well of power that could allow one to rule them all. So in order to stop an all-out war, they decide to make it a Race to said well of power with each guild electing a champion. Jace represented the Gateless (folks who have no guild affiliation) and won. So he basically became a sort satteled with the job of Trans Guild peacekeeper. It comes with some pretty nifty powers but only applies to Ravnica and Ravnican citizens.
> 
> Unfortunately has been gone from Ravnica for the past 6 months or so after being stuck on a Planeswalker Australia... So things are probably hectic



Jace and his Gatewatch allies punched the MTG equivalents of Chthulu (the Eldrazi) across two planes, a feat the Old Planeswalkers couldn't do. It wasn't until they faced Nicol Bolas they got handed any sort of setback or loss.

That said, the Gatewatch (what's left of them) will be part of the Ravnica story in the card game; I wonder if they will be referenced in the D&D book...


----------



## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

One thing I want to know, how do Divine Spellcasters/magic powers (aside from Divine Souls, who carry a tiny spark piece of a God within themselves) retain the ability to work when one leaves that deities sphere of influence. Say a Cleric of Torm goes to Ravnica a world that has never heard of Torm,  how does he retain his ability to cast spells,  channel divinity,  and do the occasional miracle outside of a World where Torm is worshipped?


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## cbwjm (Jul 25, 2018)

gyor said:


> One thing I want to know, how do Divine Spellcasters/magic powers (aside from Divine Souls, who carry a tiny spark piece of a God within themselves) retain the ability to work when one leaves that deities sphere of influence. Say a Cleric of Torm goes to Ravnica a world that has never heard of Torm,  how does he retain his ability to cast spells,  channel divinity,  and do the occasional miracle outside of a World where Torm is worshipped?




In the past, when they memorised spells into spell slots, I think I recall that clerics would be able to cast any spells they have in memory but would be unable to gain any more unless they converted to a local god.


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## gyor (Jul 25, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> In the past, when they memorised spells into spell slots, I think I recall that clerics would be able to cast any spells they have in memory but would be unable to gain any more unless they converted to a local god.




 that was prior editions, I don't think Curse of Strahd worked that way. I don't think they will cripple Clerics like that in 5e,  possibly even other divine magic users,  including none Spellcasters like the Zealot. So they have to find a work around that makes sense in character. 

 Perhaps relics,  they are spell holy symbols in 5e,  but seem to be less useful then a holy symbol on a chain or on your shield,  this would make the most interesting,  but least of practical use holy symbol useful,  they can act as a special portal of sorts that allows clerics and others to pass prayers to a distinct God outside their sphere of influence and can allow the God to channel divine magic through it enough to restored any divine magic to the character as if the God was present in the sphere (with Divine Souls acting as their own relic). Just an idea.


----------



## Tony Vargas (Jul 25, 2018)

gyor said:


> One thing I want to know, how do Divine Spellcasters/magic powers (aside from Divine Souls, who carry a tiny spark piece of a God within themselves) retain the ability to work when one leaves that deities sphere of influence. Say a Cleric of Torm goes to Ravnica a world that has never heard of Torm,  how does he retain his ability to cast spells,  channel divinity,  and do the occasional miracle outside of a World where Torm is worshipped?



 In some earlier editions, only higher-level spells came from the deity or it's intermediaries so once cast could not be recovered if beyond the god's reach, but lower level spells were the product of the Clerics faith/devotion, so remained accessible.


----------



## cbwjm (Jul 25, 2018)

gyor said:


> that was prior editions, I don't think Curse of Strahd worked that way. I don't think they will cripple Clerics like that in 5e,  possibly even other divine magic users,  including none Spellcasters like the Zealot. So they have to find a work around that makes sense in character.
> 
> Perhaps relics,  they are spell holy symbols in 5e,  but seem to be less useful then a holy symbol on a chain or on your shield,  this would make the most interesting,  but least of practical use holy symbol useful,  they can act as a special portal of sorts that allows clerics and others to pass prayers to a distinct God outside their sphere of influence and can allow the God to channel divine magic through it enough to restored any divine magic to the character as if the God was present in the sphere (with Divine Souls acting as their own relic). Just an idea.




Well yeah, that was prior editions. Since 5e seems to be against taking anything away from PCs they will probably just handwave it or have a small sidebar about how you gain spells from a similar deity while in a different sphere.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 26, 2018)

gyor said:


> Honestly,  Ravnica gives me a bit of a Shadowrun feel... Like Ravnica is basically what Eberron would turn into in 150 to 500 years,  but more urbanized then Eberron.




So...

Khyberpunk?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jul 26, 2018)

[MENTION=6803572]Kite474[/MENTION] Well, that's... certainly a story that could have been told.


----------



## gyor (Jul 26, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> Well yeah, that was prior editions. Since 5e seems to be against taking anything away from PCs they will probably just handwave it or have a small sidebar about how you gain spells from a similar deity while in a different sphere.




 I think back when Kalamar was a D&D world deities from one world had packs with another,  so for example if a Priestess of Sharess visited Kalamar,  the Vice Lord would grant her spells and if a priest of the Vice Lord visited Faerun she'd return the favour,  which I funny because Sharess was CG and Vice Lord was CE.  I don't remember where I read that.


----------



## Philip F Goding (Jul 26, 2018)

gyor said:


> One thing I want to know, how do Divine Spellcasters/magic powers (aside from Divine Souls, who carry a tiny spark piece of a God within themselves) retain the ability to work when one leaves that deities sphere of influence. Say a Cleric of Torm goes to Ravnica a world that has never heard of Torm,  how does he retain his ability to cast spells,  channel divinity,  and do the occasional miracle outside of a World where Torm is worshipped?




Well that is a thing I've been pondering and I do seem to remember in earlier editions that for clerics that did affect higher level spells. The solution being to start to take on the worship of another god/deity. 

When I played in Kalamar I was following a FR deity and had no problem. Perhaps that was because of some pact between gods of different settings. Certainly it would seem to me that if the characters are going to find different ways to visit different settings and perhaps engage in trade or whatever the deities who are all more powerful than the folks running around on the Prime Material Plane should be able to visit other worlds as well. Perhaps they have pacts with the deities of those worlds or perhaps they are just known by different names on those different worlds. In any case as more travel between worlds happens those issues have to be addressed either by WotC or your DM running players through stories on these worlds. How was this addressed in Spelljammer?


----------



## Yaarel (Jul 26, 2018)

gyor said:


> The GTA is huge and does include urban farms and Parks.




Yeah, my brother and I were visiting friends in Aurora, in York, in Toronto, and we marveled how the entire drive there was solid, solid, city.

An other thing we noticed about Toronto was how multicultural it was. There were many larger ethnic neighborhoods, from all over the world. Yet there was a feeling that none of them had hegemony. It was an egalitarian diversity.


----------



## mach1.9pants (Jul 26, 2018)

Does anyone know what's in the map pack? Fairly slim on the product info, just card tactical battlemaps?


----------



## Philip F Goding (Jul 26, 2018)

mach1.9pants said:


> Does anyone know what's in the map pack? Fairly slim on the product info, just card tactical battlemaps?




As far as Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica Maps & Miscellany. They mentioned isometric maps of some areas of the city. All I could do is speculate about those being areas of interest in a planet-wide city although since we seem to be looking at adventure hooks for characters starting in one of the ten guilds with missions to accomplish. Some of those areas of interest might include areas specific to those or areas to meet contacts etc. I haven't looked at other map packs to know what is typical, nut whatever we get here is probably going to be similar to what they do for Dragon Heist. Perhaps someone has a better take.


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## Chaosmancer (Jul 26, 2018)

You know, I'm both slowly warming up to this setting and still a little meh about it. 


Like, all the talk about Jace and these powerful people running around.... meh, don't care. 


The idea of ten "equal" governmental bodies vying for control and forging politics between them, and one looks like it is led by a technosphinx? That's cool and interesting. 

Centaur, vampire, and Minotaur playable characters? Couldn't care less and really don't want. Dryad playable characters? Yes please, that's something I'd love to have. 


Also, I would be so happy to see a finished version of the Spore Druid (as long as it wasn't crap) because that was such an amazing concept and I really want to make a character based off of it soon. 


Really, I'm just torn about all this. Is it lazy just because they are taking an established world, or will there be enough awesome things that I'm going to be stoked reading it? I don't know yet.


----------



## AtomicPope (Jul 26, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> *Steve:* Hey, Stan, I've got a great new idea for a superhero! It's a teenage kid in New York who's bitten by a radioactive spider!
> *Stan:* Great! When does he leave New York?
> *Steve:* No, he stays in New York.
> *Stan:* Hmm, very limited idea. Pass.




Spoiler Alert: Spiderman leaves New York and goes into space in Avengers: Infinity War


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 26, 2018)

AtomicPope said:


> Spoiler Alert: Spiderman leaves New York and goes into space in Avengers: Infinity War



Yeah, I guess you're right, they couldn't keep up the urban setting for long. They only got fifty-six years of stories out of it.


----------



## dracomilan (Jul 26, 2018)

In 2010 we spent 1 year adventuring in ravnica using the 3.5 rules. It was one of the best campaigns we had (we roughly followed the events of the Guild War). I ended up writing two mini-settings for 3.5 and 4e (in italian). You can find them here https://alfeimur.com/


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## AtomicPope (Jul 26, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Yeah, I guess you're right, they couldn't keep up the urban setting for long. They only got fifty-six years of stories out of it.




Yeah, the MCU kept Spiderman in NYC for one movie.  I guess I am right. *shrug*


----------



## gyor (Jul 26, 2018)

Yaarel said:


> Yeah, my brother and I were visiting friends in Aurora, in York, in Toronto, and we marveled how the entire drive there was solid, solid, city.
> 
> An other thing we noticed about Toronto was how multicultural it was. There were many larger ethnic neighborhoods, from all over the world. Yet there was a feeling that none of them had hegemony. It was an egalitarian diversity.




 Let me guess you mostly drove down young street? 

 Their are more rural parts of the GTA,  but yeah,  it's basically one giant metropolis.


----------



## Ratskinner (Jul 26, 2018)

gyor said:


> So parts of Ravnica are like Detroit and Flint?



Sarcastic, but yeah.


----------



## Ratskinner (Jul 26, 2018)

Kite474 said:


> No, not really. Out of the ten guilds that rule the place, only the Izzet do weird techno-magic. Everyone else is still packing a crap ton of magic though.
> 
> It's a faction war intrigue setting like Sigil. Except for instead of being combative philosophers its the Guilds are all competing governmental organs



Well, governmental organs and basic ecology. Who new there was a distinction to blur there?


----------



## gyor (Jul 26, 2018)

Ratskinner said:


> Sarcastic, but yeah.




 Cool,  it's the GTA,  but with sad pieces of Detroit peppered throughout. Toronto even has a large underground part of the city.


----------



## Gradine (Jul 26, 2018)

AtomicPope said:


> Yeah, the MCU kept Spiderman in NYC for one movie.  I guess I am right. *shrug*




Apparently the next Spiderman film is set in Europe, so *shrug*


----------



## Yaarel (Jul 26, 2018)

gyor said:


> Cool,  it's the GTA,  but with sad pieces of Detroit peppered throughout. Toronto even has a large underground part of the city.




I forgot about the underground city in Toronto. I havent been in it. Is it to avoid the winter snow?

Amazingly, an entire city matrix of underground D&D-style dungeon crawls!



When I lived in Boston, Cambridge, our apartment building had a basement with spooky tunnels leading to other buildings and who knows where? They were gated up, never had a chance to explore them, and never found out precisely where they went.


----------



## Yaarel (Jul 26, 2018)

Personally, what I know about Jace, I like. He suits the ‘mage jock’ archetype. Youthful, beardless, goodlooking, fit, wizard. Pretty awesome. He seems something like a more grown up version of Harry Potter?

It annoys me when as if all of the male wizards seem to be long-hair long-beards. While only the martial archetypes look shiny.

The urbanesque setting where a wizard can take on the ancient knight hero archetype resonates for me. It is like a story where Merlin is the central archetype rather than Arthur.


----------



## Kite474 (Jul 26, 2018)

Yaarel said:


> Personally, what I know about Jace, I like. He suits the ‘mage jock’ archetype. Youthful, beardless, goodlooking, fit, wizard. Pretty awesome. He seems something like a more grown up version of Harry Potter?
> 
> It annoys me when as if all of the male wizards seem to be long-hair long-beards. While only the martial archetypes look shiny.
> 
> The urbanesque setting where a wizard can take on the ancient knight hero archetype resonates for me. It is like a story where Merlin is the central archetype rather than Arthur.




Fun fact. Until Ixalan he was in no way fit. He actually used some his mind magic to look more intimidating or more like he belonged in a respective area.

Then came Ixalan and then six months on a Pirate ship... Then he got shreded


----------



## TheCosmicKid (Jul 26, 2018)

Yaarel said:


> Personally, what I know about Jace, I like. He suits the ‘mage jock’ archetype. Youthful, beardless, goodlooking, fit, wizard. Pretty awesome. He seems something like a more grown up version of Harry Potter?



Those of us who dislike him do so for reasons beyond his physical appearance. Get to know him better, you may find you dislike him too.



Yaarel said:


> It annoys me when as if all of the male wizards seem to be long-hair long-beards. While only the martial archetypes look shiny.



Yeah, because in real life, tenured professors and professional athletes are hard to tell apart.

(But Jace is more like a psion or sorcerer - Magic doesn't make the distinction the same way D&D does.)


----------



## Randy Ward (Jul 27, 2018)

Lame


----------



## Coroc (Jul 27, 2018)

Is Ravnica on a kind of planet? If so is there oceans? 

How are 500 Billion humanoids supported (Asuming it is roughly earthsized and half of its area is populated urban area)?

The best thing one can do probably is use this material and convert it to Sigil, there everything is quite logic, it is an all city setting with factions (=guilds) and nourishment is brought in from the planes, which is totally possible since it is not that huge.


----------



## Remathilis (Jul 27, 2018)

Coroc said:


> The best thing one can do probably is use this material and convert it to Sigil, there everything is quite logic, [...]




I'm going to stop you right there. I love Planescape, but it's a City built in the inside of a tire floating atop an impossibly tall stick stuck in the center of a plane in a place so antimagical the Gods lose their power when they visit. While in Sigil, you can look upwards and see the other half of the city. There are many ways to describe Sigil, but "logical" ain't one of them.


----------



## MidwayHaven (Jul 27, 2018)

Coroc said:


> Is Ravnica on a kind of planet? If so is there oceans?
> 
> How are 500 Billion humanoids supported (Asuming it is roughly earthsized and half of its area is populated urban area)?
> 
> The best thing one can do probably is use this material and convert it to Sigil, there everything is quite logic, it is an all city setting with factions (=guilds) and nourishment is brought in from the planes, which is totally possible since it is not that huge.




I gave an answer in the comments of the newer Ravnica article:




MidwayHaven said:


> I think we're forgetting the fact that Magic's planes are rather _small_ compared to what D&D's conventional description of what a planet is. Though we have no idea how large exactly Ravnica is, it can be assumed that it's much smaller than a standard Earth-sized planet. If I'm not mistaken, the second Ravnica novel discusses the Utvara reclamation zone (which I think was on the opposite side of the plane from the Old City), and it only took maybe less than a week of travel there using rail magitech.
> 
> Brady Dommermuth, former head of Creative Design at Magic, has been quoted as saying that Ravnica's entire population is in the millions; that could still give us anything between 2 million and 999 million. For an ecumenopolis, that I think could be relatively small.




Yes, Ravnica has oceans. These, too have been city-ed over. The second cycle of stories set in Ravnica state that for some reason sinkholes began appearing all across the plane, revealing merfolk and other aquatic creatures and civilizations long-thought extinct.

As for the resources, it's already been frequently stated that the Golgari guild has long been in charge of making sure that the plane's population is more or less sustained. Vast chambers in Ravnica's undercity are used by Golgari druids and necromancers as rot farms to recycle organic material to be used for food:

View attachment 99807


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## gyor (Jul 27, 2018)

MidwayHaven said:


> I gave an answer in the comments of the newer Ravnica article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 I believe the Golgari all really feed the poor. I think there are other sources of food. Likely factory farms for the middle class and rich.


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## M_Mandrake2012 (Jul 27, 2018)

JonnyP71 said:


> I'd never heard of it, so never played a game it... quick google, Magic the Gathering setting. That'll be why.
> 
> /startsarcasm
> 
> ...




And yet it's a much more entertaining setting to play in that any dragonlance or faerun.

While I love those settings in the book , and have enjoyed having played in them, in the end they never stay too far from common fantasy, and lack flavor unless you get involved with big stories/plots ( I do make a generalisation here, I have played grandiose stories in them, but also a lot of dull ones )

Ravnica on the other hand I have played and made players play and everytime it's a hit, even sometimes only because it's so fresh...

Try it before just saying another MtG Setting ( I haven't even tried the two other ported setting from MtG because Innistrad is pretty much ravenloft and Zendikar while I loved the art and I like the concept it's not as well fleshed out as ravnica ( that got something like 6 books and a ton of side lore )



gyor said:


> I believe the Golgari all really feed the poor. I  think there are other sources of food. Likely factory farms for the  middle class and rich.




Don't quote me on it, but I've a memory of reading that Selesnya has garden districts to feed people too

And I guess districts where gruul are do get at some moment more or less like jungles ( and Rakdos eat people...sometimes )


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## Tony Vargas (Jul 27, 2018)

MidwayHaven said:


> Yes, Ravnica has oceans. These, too have been city-ed over.



 So it's a Fantasy version of Asimov's Trantor.


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## Philip F Goding (Jul 27, 2018)

The way I understand things Sigil is a Ringworld sort of place somewhat separated from the planes with doors or portals that you need a key for that leads to all the different planes. The Prime Material Plane itself is composed of all the different settings/realities/alternate universe/etc each enclosed in crystal spheres, so they are essentially bubble universes and they are separated by phlogiston. In the DC Universe this is called The Bleed. I suppose there are different doorways/portals on Sigil that might lead to different settings in the Prime Material Plane and that could be one way to reach other settings. Spelljammer was of course another way as you actually sailed the ocean of phlogiston to get to and enter other crystal spheres such as Greyhawkspace, Krynnspace etc from Realmspace or wherever. It appears that Eberronspace however had it's sphere blocked off from entrance and over time cracks are appearing and shards falling and it may be only now possible to travel to Eberron.

Another way we can travel between realities seems to have opened up as we have access to The Yawning Portal in Waterdeep and apparently there are entrances to other worlds in the Dungeon of the Mad Mage of Halaster. This is very much like what I have long read concerning Castle Greyhawk where you famously could access Oz, Wonderland, Barsoom, Metamorphosis Alpha, Kong/Skull Island, Asgard, The Dying Earth, Melnibone, City of the Gods (Blackmoor), Nazi Germany and then there is the relationship between Rob Kuntz' El Raja Key or Maure Castle of Kalibruhn as well. I saw these places in each reality as a sort of nexus. I spent many years waiting for this Castle Greyhawk only getting bits and pieces periodically. Likewise getting bits and pieces of Rob's side of things. I imagines Dave Arneson had his own as well although I don't know if Castle Blackmoor fits this. Someone created a Castle of the Mad Archmage too. Now I see in Waterdeep we've taken Undermountain and melded in a lot of pieces and that is a nice thing for me. I did create for a campaign eventually my own Dark Tower nexus stealing some from Stephen King and meshing ithese elements in my own way, so who am I to complain that WotC is doing it too especially as they are bringing force realities of old as well as new ones (to D&D anyway). For me I always base things in Greyhawk. My Dark Tower I would replace with The Tower of Zenopus, Castle Greyhawk or Castle Zagyg or whatever. Any reality I don't care for becomes a nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there.

Ravnica and Eberron now are interesting places to visit. It makes sense to me that Ravnica has oceans as all that water has to come from someplace and if there were not ocean level quantities of water you face pollution problems with waste. I start thinking Waterworld or houseboats linked together or buildings on stilts with foundations deep down like oil rigs and platforms. I remember the original Night Stalker movue and it's sequel The Night Strangler where the old city had been built over and still remained down there in the underdark, so Ravnica clearly has built over all of this. One imagines Ravnica with it's own Underdark and dark oceans to cross. I would create cosmic horrors of the Lovecraftian sort here. 

Thinking of settings I note that the percentages of women playing is up to nearly 40% now up from maybe 1% or and half percent when I started playing in 1979. We wanted girls to play with us, but didn't succeed that often. Now families play around the dining room table after dinner similar to how we played cards or board games. I wonder about the percentages of people of color as I see some, but not so many. I remember the old Deities and DemiGods and had wondered where the African pantheon was that you could set adventures in and now I see the popularity of the Black Panther film set in Wakanda and find that the sort of inspiration that could be used to create such a setting. 

As we go I'm sure we are going to be seeing Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Mystara and other setting both new and old coming before too long. There also seems to be a drive to reconnect with the past. Reaching out to Rob Kuntz and collaborating with him shouldn't be so hard especially as there seems to be this whole drive towards welcoming everybody. They clearly get along well with Keith Baker and Al Greenwood. Working out things with whomever holds Blackmoor rights and I know that Gary's wife has much of his materials, so working out something with her not just Luke and the other sons and daughters could be possible. Likewise there are so many folks that are resources for this material as well, not just the original players. I just dream of this world of D&D which has changed and evolved and improved in some ways continuing to get even better.

Welcome to the return of the multiverse, welcome the return of Eberron, the former new kid on the block and welcome to the D&D version of Ravnica and now the current new kid on the block. I hope things go as well as they have for Eberron, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms who were each the new kid at one time.


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## JonnyP71 (Jul 27, 2018)

M_Mandrake2012 said:


> And yet it's a much more entertaining setting to play in that any dragonlance or faerun.
> 
> While I love those settings in the book , and have enjoyed having played in them, in the end they never stay too far from common fantasy, and lack flavor unless you get involved with big stories/plots ( I do make a generalisation here, I have played grandiose stories in them, but also a lot of dull ones )
> 
> ...




No, I won't be trying it.  I'm not a fan of Forgotten Realms either. Or Eberron.

Too much high fantasy in there, plus blurring of genres with technological elements.  I like my settings to have a medieval feel, be grittier, darker, filled with superstition, and intolerance.

I'm a Greyhawk grognard, and part of me would like to see that get official support... but the thought of how WotC would handle it worries me, will they try to shoehorn Dragonborn, nice Drow, Gnome Paladins, and racial harmony into it, when the original had none of those?

Cubicle 7 will be getting my money for the foreseeable future, The Adventures in Middle Earth books are uniformly wonderful.


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## Satyrn (Jul 27, 2018)

Yaarel said:


> Yeah, my brother and I were visiting friends in Aurora, in York, in Toronto, and we marveled how the entire drive there was solid, solid, city.
> 
> An other thing we noticed about Toronto was how multicultural it was. There were many larger ethnic neighborhoods, from all over the world. Yet there was a feeling that none of them had hegemony. It was an egalitarian diversity.




It is indeed a fantastic place to live . . . except for the driving.

(And though it's not really noticeable when driving around, there is a lot of greenspace, too - which of course adds to the sprawl)


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## Satyrn (Jul 27, 2018)

Yaarel said:


> I forgot about the underground city in Toronto. I havent been in it. Is it to avoid the winter snow?
> 
> Amazingly, an entire city matrix of underground D&D-style dungeon crawls!
> 
> ...




I've always thought the Underground part of Toronto is tiny. It spreads across a few downtown blocks in the downtown core, and is really just all the basements of the office towers connected together. It's a bit of a maze of food courts and small stores, stationary, books, clothing boutiques, shoes, etc


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## Gradine (Jul 27, 2018)

Satyrn said:


> It is indeed a fantastic place to live . . . except for the driving.




My knowledge of Toronto is _extremely_ limited; I just assumed that most people there got around by rollerblading through each others' dreams.


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## Satyrn (Jul 27, 2018)

Gradine said:


> My knowledge of Toronto is _extremely_ limited; I just assumed that most people there got around by rollerblading through each others' dreams.




That sounds more like an L.A. thing to do.


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## Istbor (Jul 27, 2018)

Not familiar with it.  I like it however.  While I enjoy Dark Sun and Greyhawk, I don't really 'need' and update for those.  Mostly because I played in my own alternate universe where my story and the cannon story diverged. 

I am pretty exciting to try playing a campaign entirely in a city-scape.  Bring on the details!


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## Istbor (Jul 27, 2018)

Gradine said:


> My knowledge of Toronto is _extremely_ limited; I just assumed that most people there got around by rollerblading through each others' dreams.




That is my experience also, and I have no problem with it.


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## Coroc (Jul 30, 2018)

[MENTION=6788862]JonnyP71[/MENTION]  "I'm a Greyhawk grognard, and part of me would like to see that get official support... but the thought of how WotC would handle it worries me, will they try to shoehorn Dragonborn, nice Drow, Gnome Paladins, and racial harmony into it, when the original had none of those?"

Of course they will and therefore I am glad it was not Greyhawk that got 5E support. Imho Greyhawk does not need much 5e support anyway, the things I miss still which are needed and I repeat myself here are:

Rules for Psionic and a Psionic class for DS and Eberron, and even some FR stuff this seems to be overlooked by many*

Rules on how to handle Halfgiants and Thrikreen for DS

Rules for Defiling for DS

Rules for moon magic and dargonlances for DL


*On the FR psionics thing: 2e made it optional to use psionics, e.g. mindflayers psionic blast could be handwaved as a kind of magic attack. But you could as well handle a mind flayer as a psionic using monster, there were stats like PSP and power scores for that. And I remember in the Menzoberranzan boxed set there was one matron who was a a cleric / psionic multiclass (House Xorlarin or so) and that one is definitely based in FR.


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## Chaosmancer (Jul 30, 2018)

Coroc said:


> and dargonlances for DL
> .




Depending on how powerful you wanted it to be, couldn't you just use the rules already established by the Arrow of Slaying and the Dragonslayer swords? I don't think Dragonlances were 1hit kills, but the only thing I remember about them was "really good at killing dragons" and you don't need a lot of fancy rules for that. Just a lot of dice.


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## M_Mandrake2012 (Jul 30, 2018)

JonnyP71 said:


> No, I won't be trying it.  I'm not a fan of Forgotten Realms either. Or Eberron.
> 
> Too much high fantasy in there, plus blurring of genres with technological elements.  I like my settings to have a medieval feel, be grittier, darker, filled with superstition, and intolerance.
> 
> ...




Your and @_*Coroc*_ comments have given me food for tought , and while I don't fear for the release of the ravnica setting, I know it will not be as good as it should and here why :

I don't think they will integrate the color system to it.

The color system is the backbone of magic lore, but in some planes it can be more or less impactful, innistrad being quite less influenced by it than say Zendikar ( and while the zendikar planeshift manual did talk lightly about colors , it did nothing to integrate it into the mechanics )

The color system can be akin to the alignements, and in such ambientations could totally supplant it.

Where a lich in alignement terms is fundamentally evil, in magic color system terms it would be black.

What would it mean in a mechanical sense ? well , colors represent ideas and abilities, and that could as well bestow creatures and players alike with those and vice versa.

This message is a lot longer than I tought it would...and I feel there is much more to say, but...it's not like wizard of the coast read these , so I won't go into a 20 pages word essay to explain why I think the color system should be integrated with these ambientations...

Edit : Forgot to add, I'm still hyped for the book , as it will serve as a solid base for my own version that I will make my players play


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## Coroc (Jul 30, 2018)

[MENTION=6801228]Chaosmancer[/MENTION] "Depending on how powerful you wanted it to be, couldn't you just use the rules already established by the Arrow of Slaying and the Dragonslayer swords? I don't think Dragonlances were 1hit kills, but the only thing I remember about them was "really good at killing dragons" and you don't need a lot of fancy rules for that. Just a lot of dice. "

Ye and no. Depends. Dragonlances had some odd functions, against dragons and draconians they dealt number of the wielders hitpoints in damage which at times where a dragon wcould have only 42 hp instakill. They were +5 weapons. They could be used while mounted on a dragon, and in this case I thinkthey did even more damage + in this case they could be used to direct and commad the dragons breathweapon.

A 5e arrow of slaying or a  dragonslayer sword is nothing compared to that.


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## Chaosmancer (Jul 30, 2018)

Coroc said:


> [MENTION=6801228]Chaosmancer[/MENTION] "Depending on how powerful you wanted it to be, couldn't you just use the rules already established by the Arrow of Slaying and the Dragonslayer swords? I don't think Dragonlances were 1hit kills, but the only thing I remember about them was "really good at killing dragons" and you don't need a lot of fancy rules for that. Just a lot of dice. "
> 
> Ye and no. Depends. Dragonlances had some odd functions, against dragons and draconians they dealt number of the wielders hitpoints in damage which at times where a dragon wcould have only 42 hp instakill. They were +5 weapons. They could be used while mounted on a dragon, and in this case I thinkthey did even more damage + in this case they could be used to direct and commad the dragons breathweapon.
> 
> A 5e arrow of slaying or a  dragonslayer sword is nothing compared to that.




Really?

Point 1) Dealing players hp as damage. This is just more damage, and like you said that could have been an instant kill. So, a roll at disadvantage versus a high DC or instant dead is perfectly fine. Or, a number of weapon dice equal to the players HD if you want that same "hp is tied to damage" thing

Point 2) +5 weapon. Well, no weapon is currently a +5, but you could easily make it +5, or leave it at a +3 since dragons have so much lower AC in this edition

Point 3) Can be used while mounted on a dragon... So can pretty much every other weapon in the game. Might have a hard time with a dagger, but a lance while mounted is pretty common. 

Point 4) More damage while mounted on a dragon. Easy enough to increase damage once a player is mounted on a dragon. A scale based on how old the dragon is, giving a modifier to hit and damage. 

Point 5) Directing Dragon Breath... Doesn't need a special ability really, it would just need the player to say "shoot the breathe weapon to the left group" so it doesn't need any sort of write up


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## Philip F Goding (Jul 31, 2018)

My opinion on what WotC is doing as far as classic settings such as Greyhawk, Mystara, Blackmoor, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Kara Tur, Al Qadim and all the rest is that first each has to be significantly different than Forgotten Realms and also be true to what they were like before. I am sure there has been a lot of play testing concerning unique features of each and the fact that they are not coming out yet shows they are not ready yet and possibly they were not as high on the priority list, which to some extend is affected by the demand.

I am a big Greyhawk fan from back to 1979 and the early days of AD&D 1st edition and the Holmes Basic D&D. Everything I run is in Greyhawk. The only other setting I have ever used is Dragonlance. However I could easily be interested in visiting other settings. To me they are all nice places to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Like in Oz returning to Kansas was a must as there is no place like home and that is where the heart is. Later I did run the so-called d20 3rd edition too as there appeared to be some focus on Greyhawk there.

As a player I have played in Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Kalamar and Dark Sun and that has been fine to explore other worlds, but Greyhawk is the world that I have made my own and I know what is happening there on cosmic levels. Anything I want in Greyhawk is there no matter what it came form whether that was another setting, some book I read or film I saw or my own inspiration. My Greyhawk of course is not the same as anyone else's version, but that's ok.

I have noticed that WotC for 5th edition has focused on Forgotten Realms as their main setting with a visit to Ravenloft, which I always felt was somewhat connected to FR anyway. Many of the ealy adventures though seemed largely derived from early Greyhawk adventures, but set in Forgotten Realms. That was a bit annoying to me as I watched products which were to me the T series, the D series and the G series based. I fully expected the A series at some point too. 

Then we got Tales of the Yawning Portal with a C module and a couple of the S series, as well as Against The Giants and the first two of the 3rd edition Greyhawk series. Here we appeared to actually be going to Greyhawk, so perhaps in a way we've already gone there and this is play testing for the future Greyhawk setting.

Now besides a Waterdeep module that you could convert to Greyhawk or Sharn or another large city in another setting as well as the Ravnica setting, which is a planetwide city that reminds me somewhat of Judge Dredd's Mega-City One. I do note that some folks seem to want a different magic system coming out of this, but I gather that it's set up to follow conventional D&D magic rules with some aspects of the colors in place as far as the guilds, but the rest seems to be left to the will of whomsoever runs this setting. Seems they didn't want to rely on that too heavily and alienate D&D fans, but it seems open to Magic:TG to refer to things that way. In other words they are trying to thread the needle between two groups of fans.  I expect some tweeks in the future perhaps. I am not surprised to see Eberron either.

The interesting thing to me is the Dungeon of the Mad Mage version of Undermountain. Never before did I see this as a rip off of the original Castle Greyhawk or Castle of the Mad Arch Mage until now. That had some connections to Wonderland, The Looking Glass, Skull Island and so on. There were pieces of these sort of settings to visit in the EX series and WOG and you had other connections Maure Castle, Tsojcanth, Tharizdun and the Barrier Peaks perhaps.

I generally start new players in the Tower of Zenopus from the Holmes book, Keep on the Borderlands (I may use In Search of the Unknown with either of these), the U series, the L Lendore Isle series or the Sunless Citadel. I may follow with the A series or something else or I may follow the series that begins with the Sunless Citadel and leads to Ashardalon the red dragon from 3rd edition. As the years go by there are more and more options although may want to convert what ever you use filling in the spaces with whatever comes from the imagination and who knows what direction players will choose anyway.

In any case it appears as if they at WotC seem to be talking about the history of D&D lately and they seem to know fans want them to be true to that history they remember. It just seems likely that the Greyhawk setting that has only been teased so far they are going to want that to be something that older Grognard players and DM's are going to want to use. I know there is a fear that they are going to ruin it somehow by putting in Dragonborn, nice Drow, Gnome Paladins, and racial harmony and of course any DM would strip out anything like this they didn't like anyway. 

I focus on so-called "nice" Drow. First of all whether or not a drow is food or evil is relative. A drow that is good very likely is dealing with a lot of PTSD stuff and in anycase us not likely to be very nice unless he/she is crazy in this way. The story of this drow is of one who has gone through a lot of suffering in order the attempt of changing their nature and upbringing. Such a drow is unlikely to survive. I suppose there could be some setting or alternate reality where being a nice drow is normal, but then what are other elves like in that reality? I could see an Afro-centric setting where the dark skinned elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings etc are the good folk and light skinned versions of the same are evil. It all depends on what you want to play. Skin color isn't really the thing so much as the society or culture you grew up in. I find it interesting that dark skinned evil versions of some of the races live underground where they are exposed ro little light to make their skin dark, but then this is a magical fantasy world that doesn't necessarily follow the rules that we know about science. I tend myself towards a Tolkienesque sort of thing on elves where there are no Drow per se and perhaps goblins and especially orcs were elves that were tortured and twisted into the evil beings they became by Sauron the dark lord who had been the chief lieurenant of Morgoth and then Melkor before the events in LotR. Their whole purpose was to corrupt the different races of Middle Earth anyway. Of course D&D can't really use things that are from Tolkien, but that doesn't stop me. I did have the original white box D&D books, which did lean heavily on Tolkien and other writers. I use Balrogs and Hobbits too among other things. Drow to me are just pretty orcs with more magic perhaps. my goblins however are from Piers Anthony's Xanth series. 

In Xanth Goblins are half the height of a Human, the males tend to be very ugly rude and violent, and the females tend to be very sweet and pretty. During the Harpy-Goblin war, the Harpies cursed the Goblin girls to only like ugly  violent men, so by natural selection all of the decent men disappeared.  The curse was abated later, but by then the damage was already done. 

So in my world you might have a nice Goblin female, but not so with male-Goblins, Orcs or Drow. Usually not even half-Orcs or Half-Drow elves are foing to be good. The stigma against these corrupted beings is just so great against them. People who face racial prejudices from folk of other races tend to develop racial prejudices too towards people of the races that oppressed them. They may not think of themselves as evil because they tend towards being the hero of their own story, but it's all relative to the perspectives of those around you and a relatively good Drow is not going to hold up to the human standard of what is good and especially not the Elven standard. They are only seen that way in accordance with Drow or Orc standards and they do not see being good as a good thing. I look at the Star Trek: Mirror Universe as the basic idea here or in DC comics the Crime Syndicate of Amerika vs the Justice League of America. In these cultures there is not going to be any rehabilitation as it is only seen as making one who is strong weak. Drow abd Orc cultures are certainly seen this way and not as corrupted at all. We only from our own standards of today see it as Sociopathic or at least selfish. 

Certainly we have evolved from thse beginnings ourselves. I'm sure the Holy Roman Empire appreciated such strength over weakness. There are many today who still believe in strong patriarchal leaders while D&D itself is one area in society where we move towards cooperation and collaboration over the Capitalistic competitive ways. Remember that the bigger they are the harder they fall and what goes up must come down. It's all a cycle of King of the Hill and then two heads are better than one and can remain on top longer. no wonder they want to divide groups because they are then easier to conquer quicker.


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## gyor (Jul 31, 2018)

Philip F Goding said:


> My opinion on what WotC is doing as far as classic settings such as Greyhawk, Mystara, Blackmoor, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Kara Tur, Al Qadim and all the rest is that first each has to be significantly different than Forgotten Realms and also be true to what they were like before. I am sure there has been a lot of play testing concerning unique features of each and the fact that they are not coming out yet shows they are not ready yet and possibly they were not as high on the priority list, which to some extend is affected by the demand.
> 
> I am a big Greyhawk fan from back to 1979 and the early days of AD&D 1st edition and the Holmes Basic D&D. Everything I run is in Greyhawk. The only other setting I have ever used is Dragonlance. However I could easily be interested in visiting other settings. To me they are all nice places to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Like in Oz returning to Kansas was a must as there is no place like home and that is where the heart is. Later I did run the so-called d20 3rd edition too as there appeared to be some focus on Greyhawk there.
> 
> ...




 Wow,  I dude was born in 1979, back when you were playing Greyhawk,  puts things in perspective doesn't it.


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## Demetrios1453 (Jul 31, 2018)

Philip F Goding said:


> . It just seems likely that the Greyhawk setting that has only been teased so far they are going to want that to be something that older Grognard players and DM's are going to want to use. I know there is a fear that they are going to ruin it somehow by putting in Dragonborn, nice Drow, Gnome Paladins, and racial harmony and of course any DM would strip out anything like this they didn't like anyway.




If I may ask, why single out gnome paladins in particular? Surely there are followers of Gaerdal Ironhand who could combine the holy and martial in the defense of the home burrows from outside threats...


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## gyor (Jul 31, 2018)

M_Mandrake2012 said:


> Your and @_*Coroc*_ comments have given me food for tought , and while I don't fear for the release of the ravnica setting, I know it will not be as good as it should and here why :
> 
> I don't think they will integrate the color system to it.
> 
> ...




 The ideas and things the colours convey will be in the book,  they just won't use the MtG terminology for it.


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## gyor (Jul 31, 2018)

Philip F Goding said:


> My opinion on what WotC is doing as far as classic settings such as Greyhawk, Mystara, Blackmoor, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Kara Tur, Al Qadim and all the rest is that first each has to be significantly different than Forgotten Realms and also be true to what they were like before. I am sure there has been a lot of play testing concerning unique features of each and the fact that they are not coming out yet shows they are not ready yet and possibly they were not as high on the priority list, which to some extend is affected by the demand.
> 
> I am a big Greyhawk fan from back to 1979 and the early days of AD&D 1st edition and the Holmes Basic D&D. Everything I run is in Greyhawk. The only other setting I have ever used is Dragonlance. However I could easily be interested in visiting other settings. To me they are all nice places to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Like in Oz returning to Kansas was a must as there is no place like home and that is where the heart is. Later I did run the so-called d20 3rd edition too as there appeared to be some focus on Greyhawk there.
> 
> ...




 I think the ones that are most different from FR get top priority,  but I think they will hit all of them. 

 There is roughly a 4 month gap between Eberron's release and Ravnica's. If that continues that is 3 settings a year. 

 So maybe Dragonlance,  Darksun, and Spelljammer 2019,then Mystara, Planescape,  Greyhawk 2020, and Nentir Vale,  Birthright,  another MtG setting 2021, then 2022 a completely new setting.


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## Philip F Goding (Jul 31, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> If I may ask, why single out gnome paladins  in particular? Surely there are followers of Gaerdal Ironhand who could  combine the holy and martial in the defense of the home burrows from  outside threats...




It wasn't just the Gnome not being allowed to be a Paladin, but other races could not bne certain classes as well. Human was the only race that was allowed to be any class. Also the various races were limited in how high they could progress in classes and class abilities, not just in accordance with their race, but also their ability scores. The requirements for some things were sometimes quite high. I carried this particular example forward instead of putting forth another example. I was actually focused on the "nice" Drow idea and not the Gnome. Requirements for a Paladin were quite high and I think the Gnome was not the only race that could not be one, but that wasn't just Greyhawk, but it was 1st Edition AD&D.


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## Philip F Goding (Jul 31, 2018)

gyor said:


> Wow,  I dude was born in 1979, back when you were playing Greyhawk,  puts things in perspective doesn't it.




Yes, I'm sure we would have started in THAC0 AD&D 2nd Edition either in Greyhawk or Dragonlance and then converted to d20 D&D 3rd Edition when that came out or we would have been players together in someone else's Forgotten Realms game.


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## Mercurius (Jul 31, 2018)

gyor said:


> I think the ones that are most different from FR get top priority,  but I think they will hit all of them.
> 
> There is roughly a 4 month gap between Eberron's release and Ravnica's. If that continues that is 3 settings a year.
> 
> So maybe Dragonlance,  Darksun, and Spelljammer 2019,then Mystara, Planescape,  Greyhawk 2020, and Nentir Vale,  Birthright,  another MtG setting 2021, then 2022 a completely new setting.




While I hope this is true, I think it is wishful thinking. More realistically we get one, maybe two, classic setting PDFs per year.


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## Philip F Goding (Jul 31, 2018)

gyor said:


> I think the ones that are most different from FR get top priority,  but I think they will hit all of them.
> 
> There is roughly a 4 month gap between Eberron's release and Ravnica's. If that continues that is 3 settings a year.
> 
> So maybe Dragonlance,  Darksun, and Spelljammer 2019,then Mystara, Planescape,  Greyhawk 2020, and Nentir Vale,  Birthright,  another MtG setting 2021, then 2022 a completely new setting.




I pretty much agree although I don't think we can count on any set gap between settings. First of all there is already some Greyhawk setting specific adventures out there. Then with the Plain Shift materials coming out we already have five of those M:TG settings out there in some form and I'm sure they are still putting the fine tunings on Ravnica and there are other M:TG settings being worked on.

 Eberron is in a playtest form that they seem to really be pushing now. Who knows when the final version of that will be done. It could be ready before or after Ravnica or even the same time. Spelljammer is technically a way to travel between the Prime Material Planes different settings even though it's something of it's own setting as well. Planescape involves traveling between the various planes, but you could conceivably travel to different settings in the Prime Material Plane as well. Looks as if you can do this at the Yawning Portal or some other gateways/portals doors in the Undermountain or if you could get to Sigil. 

They have spoken about Eberron as if the Crystal bubble surrounding Eberronspace has locked people in that setting in and other setting out, but that this is changing as shards fall to ground and cracks appear. That to me is quite interesting, so I see aspects of Spelljammer and Planescape being worked on and appearing. 

I would say that setting such as Dragonlance and Dark Sun are likely to come along following Ravnica and Eberron and then Spelljammer and Planescape. Mystara and Greyhawk go way back and will no doubt along at some point. I think they plan on Dominaria coming up before too long and other M:TG settings as we go down through the list of those. Just as we go down the list of D&D settings. 

Some settings that have come out before may have rights issues attached to them so I wonder if there will be some 3rd party support product settings come out at some point. I hope for some collaboration deals to be worked out with some of these as unity seems to be helping D&D a lot these days and division seems to hurt.

Some settings such as Al Qadim, Maztica, Kara Tur, Malatra and The Horde are just different areas  that we know are just on the same planet as Faerun and Chult and just involve normal travel. Similarly Savage Coast and Hollow Earth are part of Mystara. 

I don't know much about Nentir Vale a default 4th edition setting that I don't think got that much play. It seems to be some sort of cross between Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. As for Birthright, I don't know much about that either, but some folk seem to love it.

As we go down the list I'm sure the more obscure settings won't get a lot of love for a while if ever and there are planty of them. I expect we will be on to another edition before WotC exhausts them all. We may see one or two completely new settings in a way similar to how they came upon Forgetten Realms and Eberron. All new settings fill a niche of interest among fans.

Some of the settings that I wondser about rights issues, but have had connections with D&D in the past include Blackmoor, Kalibruhn (Rob Kuntz), Lankhmar, Kalamar, Rokugon (Legend of the Five Rings), Hyborean Age, Melnibone, Tekumel (Empire of the Petal Throne) and so many others. You could just go down a list of mythologies in our own history with setting based in Norse Mythology, Egyptian Mythology, Greek Mythology, Roman Mythology, Celtic Mythology, Japanese, Chinese, American Indian, Arthurian, Central and South American, Judeo-Christian, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Babylonian and Sumerian, African and so forth. There is no lack of settings based on books or movies or comics even. There is the cosmic horror of Lovecraft, Middle Earth of Tolkien, The Land of Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, Elfquest of Richard and Wendy Pini, the cartoon Pirates of Dark Water. Those are just a few of what I've taken from. I've used everything from Alien to Zardoz. All that stops WotC is working out deals with whomsover owns the rights.


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## Philip F Goding (Jul 31, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> While I hope this is true, I think it is wishful thinking. More realistically we get one, maybe two, classic setting PDFs per year.




I think it likely that many of these start as PDFs until there is playtesting and they become final. Then you may have a Print on Demand option for those that got the earlier PDF version and it's updates. When it's final a regular hardback might be available.


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## Mercurius (Jul 31, 2018)

Philip F Goding said:


> I think it likely that many of these start as PDFs until there is playtesting and they become final. Then you may have a Print on Demand option for those that got the earlier PDF version and it's updates. When it's final a regular hardback might be available.




I agree, I was more talking about the above poster's speculation that they might come out with three setting books (or PDFs) per year. 

I agree with you longer post above, for the most part, that WotC will work their way down the list of classic settings in some order, with some getting the "Eberron Treatment" of PDF-to-POD and some being incorporated into a story arc. We might also see further Magic settings, if Ravnica is successful.

What remains unclear to me, and perhaps to WotC, is whether or not they'll publish hardcover versions of the PDF settings. I would think they might do it for a select few but not for most.


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## Coroc (Jul 31, 2018)

I must ask: why do you need a 5e upgrade on classical settings at all other than for unsolved mechanical issues (e.g. Psionics, Thri kreen, half giant etc.)  ?

Do you need a new story? Most of the published 5e material is adaptable somehow. 

Do you need advice for shoehorning dragonborn into greyhawk? Thou aren't following a worthy cause then  

So what is it besides some rules for mechanic oddities like defiling or a psion class that you need? 

I mean if you are of the sort that needs everything printed to the letter in an adventure, then you would need  the complete thing.
Say, if you would be unable somehow to even convert some of the starter adventures from 1e or 2e, then you really would need the full package for a setting ,including some 1-20 campaign, maybe some adventurers guide or mordenkaninens tome or whatever also. That is not very likely to happen for most of the old stuff and there is tons of convertible adventures around, so what are your expectations?


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## Mercurius (Jul 31, 2018)

Who are you writing to, [MENTION=6895991]Coroc[/MENTION]? If you're writing to me (as your post was right after mine), pretty much none of your post applies as I don't "need" any of those things as I never run games in published settings, always homebrews. I like setting books for reading and collecting pleasure and to get ideas from. My preference is almost always for new settings rather than old ones - so I was one of the folks who was pleasantly surprised about the Ravnica announcement and would prefer, for example, to see a Nerath book than a Greyhawk one. 

That said, I'd enjoy seeing new versions of certain settings, because I like setting books.


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## Coroc (Jul 31, 2018)

[MENTION=59082]Mercurius[/MENTION] No, my post was more generally not directed at you specifically, maybe a bit of thread hijacking on my side as so many speculations were going on in this thread on what comes next and why, I thought it might be the best place to ask such a question.


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## M_Mandrake2012 (Jul 31, 2018)

I think most people just want more people to get to know the settings they love and that's why they ask for updated version :

new players or even not that new won't go and do conversion from old books they might not have just because some old( or less old  ) fogey like us just said Greyhawk or Dragonlance are the best settings.

Even myself, I'm hyped at Ravnica because it's a setting I've played in or made play and I just love it and would love for people to get hooked on it as I am.

And that's why people request for it. ( also and just simply because they love and cherish the setting )


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## Philip F Goding (Aug 1, 2018)

Coroc said:


> I must ask: why do you need a 5e upgrade on classical settings at all other than for unsolved mechanical issues (e.g. Psionics, Thri kreen, half giant etc.)  ?
> 
> Do you need a new story? Most of the published 5e material is adaptable somehow.
> 
> ...




I certainly do not need Dragonborn in Greyhawk. I don't actually need 5e product at all. It all goes back to how things were in the 1970's and '80's with D&D when we were starting out and using modules they supplied as the basis of things and experimenting with changes. In those days these super modules didn't exist. Adventures came out in usually three or four parts. You would play through part one and then wait months or even years for the next part. To satisfy players you either had to make a lot of stuff up or go on to some other story. In the end most of them saw completion, but there were things that were never completed. We might see unconnected pieces or you might just hear about things. That was true in Greyhawk, Blackmoor and Kalibruhn and these were connected to E Gary Gygax, Dave Arneson and Rob Kuntz.

There was in the Holmes Basic D&D book the first level of an adventure called The Tower of Zenopus. That is the very first dungeon my very first character set foot in. This was Maxwell the Magic-User and I ran that for other players when I was starting out as DM because I was the only one who ever played before, but where to go from there. At first I had B1 In Search of The Unknown and B2 The Keep on The Borderlands. On the B2 map there was a Cave of the Unknown that was not detailed. To make do we put these three things together. Then there was T1 The Village of Hommlet and it was years before T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil came out. By then it was too late. Still it was closure and that's the thing closure or the sense of completion. There was a mystery that nagged and you wanted to know hoe it was. L1 The Secret of Bone Hill same thing... and so one.

The Holy Grail though is Castle Greyhawk and the Rob Kuntz side of it called El Raja Key. Pieces of these have come out over the decades often in obscure blink and you miss them places. This being the way it was because the relationships between TSR (now WotC) and these three became difficult. Castle Greyhawk is the original Castle of the Mad Arch Mage and within this castle down in the deeper depths besides there being a bottomless pit to China were portals leading to other worlds and other realities. I guess I could use a place like Sigil for this, but I eventually created as a place holder my own Dark Tower as the products that TSR/WotC came outwith to satisfy this didn't satisfy. Gary was in the midst of putting out Castle Zagyg when he passed away and all work on this stopped perhaps forever.

I want to see the original works of Gary, Rob and Dave either in their OD&D state or updated for play in any edition. I want this so I can integrate it with existing materials and then move forward to new adventures with this there. It's like taking the DNA of dinosaurs and finding there are missing pieces and filling it in with frog DNA, which is what I have done. It is pretty much a dinosaur, but not exactly and you really don't know exactly how it's not. It just nags and I'd like to shut the door on it. 

This being said I think the Dungeon of the Mad Mage goes some distance towards bridging the gap. I'll have to wait and see how much and how I'll feel then. There is a Grognard out there that did his own Castle of the Mad Arch Mage that is in the spirit of Gary's original at least. I'd like to say one of our earliest and most successful characters was named Grog back then. He also was a Magic-User like Maxwell. Anyway the more material out there the more I have that I can splice together. I don't even have all that Gary, Rob and Dave have put out. Some of it I can't get at a reasonable price or I just can't find parts of it at all. What I have found typically is in an OD&D format, but some things are for other editions. Sometimes I am amazed with things people found that I never knew even existed. This is all piecing together history.

I am pretty happy with what WotC is doing, but the top item, is bridging the gap with the first D&D families and I think they want to do this and not just because some of the fans want it, but I think it brings us back full circle and helps bring closure for many. 

Marvel still respects Stan Lee and I feel that one of the things DC did wrong back in the day was cit ties with Gardner Fox and TSR did that with Gary, Rob and Dave too to varying degrees. I think that's always been a mistake. I think community development in D&D means unity in diversity. We don't all have to agree on settings to get along. We also don't need to be gatekeepers of the rules or continuity or what is canon as we can all homebrew and vary from the rules as much as we like. It's all about the story that we collaborate with our players on and the fun of it. If we all had a good time who cares that we messed up somewhere. Nobody's perfect and we learn to do better next time.


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## gyor (Aug 2, 2018)

Philip F Goding said:


> I pretty much agree although I don't think we can count on any set gap between settings. First of all there is already some Greyhawk setting specific adventures out there. Then with the Plain Shift materials coming out we already have five of those M:TG settings out there in some form and I'm sure they are still putting the fine tunings on Ravnica and there are other M:TG settings being worked on.
> 
> Eberron is in a playtest form that they seem to really be pushing now. Who knows when the final version of that will be done. It could be ready before or after Ravnica or even the same time. Spelljammer is technically a way to travel between the Prime Material Planes different settings even though it's something of it's own setting as well. Planescape involves traveling between the various planes, but you could conceivably travel to different settings in the Prime Material Plane as well. Looks as if you can do this at the Yawning Portal or some other gateways/portals doors in the Undermountain or if you could get to Sigil.
> 
> ...




 I honestly thought Dominaria was going to be the next D&D setting hard cover treatment,  but then the planeshift article was released. 

 So I don't know which MtG setting will get the official hardcover treatment instead of a volunteer planeshift article next. Maybe Alara.


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## Kite474 (Aug 2, 2018)

gyor said:


> I honestly thought Dominaria was going to be the next D&D setting hard cover treatment,  but then the planeshift article was released.
> 
> So I don't know which MtG setting will get the official hardcover treatment instead of a volunteer planeshift article next. Maybe Alara.




Depends on how this product does if it sells well more will probbably be released, if not it will be considered a failed experiment. It most likely will be Alara or a revisited Zendikar/Inastrad. Dominaria wont happen because it has to directly compete with the Realms and they are both pretty similar


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## QuietBrowser (Aug 2, 2018)

This is a reply I struggled with making, because some of the prior posts I've seen have reminded me just how much I don't like Greyhawk and I really don't want to be bashing... so, I'll try to accentuate the positive.

This is, honestly, really exciting news to me. I've been craving a break from the Forgotten Realms for ages now, and I've always found Magic's worlds fascinating in an abstract "I don't have the money to buy the cards, and the lore should be more available" kind of way. Ravnica is the kind of high fantasy setting I crave - I cut my teeth on the D&D cartoon and on Conan the Adventurer, I will always associate "fantasy" with weird vistas and monsters and magic integral to the world. Ravnica is the kind of thing I WANT out of my D&D, not low-power, low-fantasy "realistic" grim and muck.

The more I learn about Ravnica, the more fascinated I become. I've seen the comparisons to Sigil, and, frankly, whilst I find it annoying that Sigil has become conflated with Planescape (I think that arguably shows how badly Planescape was designed), I think Ravnica does the "Sigil only" campaign better than Sigil does. I don't have problems buying a magical cityscape, any more than I'd have problems buying a flat world, or a world made of flying islands - that's the kind of thing I expect out of a fantastical world. The Guilds have such interesting philosophies and basic concepts, and they're full of character.

And the races! I haven't even wrapped my head fully around what Ravnica has to offer, but I'm always fascinated by the melting pot aspect of a good high fantasy cityscape, and Ravnica is not disappointing me there. Seriously, give me playable stats for Ravnican Gorgons, and I will take back 99% of the bad things I have said about 5th edition - I've wanted gorgon PCs ever since Vraska came to the fore during the Ixalan storyline. I've heard the rumors of centaurs and minotaurs, and I'm hoping desperately that they're good. Viashino sound promising, because even if we have lizardfolk already, tail-whipping quick-strong lizards are a nice alternative to the primitive hulking tanks we already have. Besides, AD&D had something like a dozen different kinds of lizardfolk, 5e can stand to have 2. Dryads and faeries and merfolk would be wonderful, especially because I remember how much I enjoyed the hamadryads of 4e.

All in all... WotC are going to have to spectacularly mismanage this project to truly disappoint me on it. I welcome the prospect of future MtG "conversions", because the more D&D there is, the more official ingredients I can add to my kitchen as a homebrewing world-builder.

Also, I would cut a throat for a Kamigawa Planeshift. Give me decent 5e stats for ratfolk and kitsunes, and I will be a happy man - although the Soratami and Orochi are also really much desired, because they're just too awesome.


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## Philip F Goding (Aug 3, 2018)

Yeah, I do like grim and gritty old school Greyhawk and want closure on all the stuff I heard about that never arrived, but I like exotic settings to visit. Give me that world with all the floating islands in the sky and airships top get between them or portals. Give me exotic minotaurs, centaurs, dryads and so on as playable characters. I have never liked Forgotten Realms much because it always seemed like a polished bright and shiny version of Greyhawk where they fixed up a lot of stuff that didn't need fixing. I much prefer something like Eberron and I like to visit these exotic settings from Greyhawk either through portals or with the methods in Spelljammer. I feel that in Sigil you have the capability of visiting other planes and perhaps settings as well, but they lock it all up and control it. 

I don't know that they plan other M:tG as hardcover books ot just a series of Plane Shift articles. I suppose it depends on the popularity of a specific article. I think those are really just play test materials anyway. Perhaps at some point several of them will come out together as a book with the materials in a final form. All speculation of course, but the ideas I put out are along the lines of what I would do if I were working there. The ideas make sense to me both as what the public is likely looking for and how it would be profitable. That is a different thing from what I happen to want personally. Pretty much every idea anyone here has mentioned that they want I could say I want that too.


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## Parmandur (Aug 3, 2018)

gyor said:


> I honestly thought Dominaria was going to be the next D&D setting hard cover treatment,  but then the planeshift article was released.
> 
> So I don't know which MtG setting will get the official hardcover treatment instead of a volunteer planeshift article next. Maybe Alara.




Well, we know there is a hard link between what worl gets a Magic Set (and fluffy Campaign Setting "Art Book" by Wyatt) and which get Planeshift treatmebt, whether in PDF or hardcover.

I reckon it's a matter of whether either of a given years Magic settings has big crunch potential. Dominara has three monsters, one and a half races and some background fluff tables. Ravnica is getting huuuge amounts of crunch. We'll see what the 2029 Magic sets bring, in time.

Heck, maybe they will do D&D world's in Magic next...


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## Mercurius (Aug 3, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Well, we know there is a hard link between what worl gets a Magic Set (and fluffy Campaign Setting "Art Book" by Wyatt) and which get Planeshift treatmebt, whether in PDF or hardcover.
> 
> I reckon it's a matter of whether either of a given years Magic settings has big crunch potential. Dominara has three monsters, one and a half races and some background fluff tables. Ravnica is getting huuuge amounts of crunch. We'll see what the 2029 Magic sets bring, in time.
> 
> Heck, maybe they will do D&D world's in Magic next...




I am intrigued about these art books. I don't play magic but am a big fan of setting books. Do these art books actually have a strong written component and description of the worlds or are they mostly just art? Are there maps, histories, etc? 

(I might go to B&N in a bit to check them out - my local one has Dominaria and Kaladesh in stock - so my question might be answered before you get to it).


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## cbwjm (Aug 3, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> I am intrigued about these art books. I don't play magic but am a big fan of setting books. Do these art books actually have a strong written component and description of the worlds or are they mostly just art? Are there maps, histories, etc?
> 
> (I might go to B&N in a bit to check them out - my local one has Dominaria and Kaladesh in stock - so my question might be answered before you get to it).



They do, I have the zendikar art book and they have a lot of the world lore to go along with the art. Even without the planeshift documents or prior knowledge from playing MtG you could easily put together a campaign just from the lore in the setting books.


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## Mercurius (Aug 3, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> They do, I have the zendikar art book and they have a lot of the world lore to go along with the art. Even without the planeshift documents or prior knowledge from playing MtG you could easily put together a campaign just from the lore in the setting books.




Thanks! As something of a setting book collector this is good news (although bad for my anemic trying-to-make-it-in-Hawaii-as-a-single-parent bank account ).


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## Mercurius (Aug 3, 2018)

[MENTION=6914441]Philip F Goding[/MENTION], I enjoy your long posts filled with all sorts of quasi-Gygaxian arcana, but am a bit confused about what exactly you hope to see from WotC Greyhawk-wise. Can you spell it out simply? It sounds like you want _something,_ yet at the same time (understandibly) don't want them to "modernize" Greyhawk with tropes from more recent editions (e.g. Dragonborn). 

As an aside, I was working on a longish post in which I went through the major settings of D&D and offered what I'd like to see WotC and speculated on on what they actually might do. Not sure if I'll post it as it is one of those long ramblers that might receive questionable response, but I'll "mention" you if I do as I'd be curious as to what you thought about my Greyhawk suggestion.


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## robus (Aug 3, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> I am intrigued about these art books. I don't play magic but am a big fan of setting books. Do these art books actually have a strong written component and description of the worlds or are they mostly just art? Are there maps, histories, etc?
> 
> (I might go to B&N in a bit to check them out - my local one has Dominaria and Kaladesh in stock - so my question might be answered before you get to it).




Definitely check them out in person. I have Zendikar, Innistrad & Kaladesh books, and i found the first two quite inspiring. 

Kaladesh was a disappointment, despite the fantastic art, for two reasons: 1) the book focused mainly on the major city and 2) there seemed to be very little opportunity for adventure. Sure there were some minor disputes mentioned but nothing to really sink your teeth into.

I’m not sure if it was my feedback to Wyatt a whie back that started this (  ), but i’m most gratified that they’ve started producing maps for the planes. The earlier artbooks suffer for not having an over-arching map to tie things together IMHO.


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## Parmandur (Aug 3, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> I am intrigued about these art books. I don't play magic but am a big fan of setting books. Do these art books actually have a strong written component and description of the worlds or are they mostly just art? Are there maps, histories, etc?
> 
> (I might go to B&N in a bit to check them out - my local one has Dominaria and Kaladesh in stock - so my question might be answered before you get to it).




They are very verbose, filled with detailed fluff. The Planeshift articles only make sense when viewed through the prism of being crunch addendums to full campaign setting guides. Wyatt has said that his mandate was to produce full RPG style campaign guides that are rules agnostic: you could pick up the Dominara book and use it for 3E, Savage World's or GURPS if you feel like, and aside from the rules is full featured.


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 3, 2018)

I think the main thing that differentiates Greyhawk from FR is it's tone: grimmer, grittier, grounded.

In that respect, 5e isn't a ideal fit - it's hard to die, and unlimited cantrips make magic a common sight.


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## Mercurius (Aug 3, 2018)

robus said:


> Definitely check them out in person. I have Zendikar, Innistrad & Kaladesh books, and i found the first two quite inspiring.
> 
> Kaladesh was a disappointment, despite the fantastic art, for two reasons: 1) the book focused mainly on the major city and 2) there seemed to be very little opportunity for adventure. Sure there were some minor disputes mentioned but nothing to really sink your teeth into.
> 
> I’m not sure if it was my feedback to Wyatt a whie back that started this (  ), but i’m most gratified that they’ve started producing maps for the planes. The earlier artbooks suffer for not having an over-arching map to tie things together IMHO.




Funny you should say that. I just browsed Dominaria and Kaladesh at B&N and ended up ordering Dominaria on Amazon but didn’t like Kaladesh for exactly the reasons you state, especially the lack of a map compared to the beautiful one in the Dominaria book.

Which other Art books have world maps? I’m particularly drawn to Zendikar and Amonkhet, not as much the other ones.


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## SkidAce (Aug 3, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> Funny you should say that. I just browsed Dominaria and Kaladesh at B&N and ended up ordering Dominaria on Amazon but didn’t like Kaladesh for exactly the reasons you state, especially the lack of a map compared to the beautiful one in the Dominaria book.




You didn't buy at B&N?


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## robus (Aug 3, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> Which other Art books have world maps? I’m particularly drawn to Zendikar and Amonkhet, not as much the other ones.




Sadly there's no official Zendikar map but, because I was so inspired, I created one based on a cool map I found floating around the interwebs:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?488520-M-tG-Zendikar-World-Map

I was quite pleased by the result


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## Philip F Goding (Aug 3, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> @_*Philip F Goding*_, I enjoy your long posts filled with all sorts of quasi-Gygaxian arcana, but am a bit confused about what exactly you hope to see from WotC Greyhawk-wise. Can you spell it out simply? It sounds like you want _something,_ yet at the same time (understandibly) don't want them to "modernize" Greyhawk with tropes from more recent editions (e.g. Dragonborn).
> 
> As an aside, I was working on a longish post in which I went through the major settings of D&D and offered what I'd like to see WotC and speculated on on what they actually might do. Not sure if I'll post it as it is one of those long ramblers that might receive questionable response, but I'll "mention" you if I do as I'd be curious as to what you thought about my Greyhawk suggestion.




Here's the thing. I am pretty satisfied with everything they do. I can think about how to make anything better though. I can also see how things could have been worse as well. I see pros and cons in each edition and systems other companies have created as well. What I want has many aspects that are probably impossible or very unlikely, but I might hope for some of these things anyway. Occasionally they put something in I didn't expect along the lines of those hpes and sometimes something I didn't think of.

In the world the way it is today especially here in the States. I see a polarization with feelings behind whatever side you might believe in that make it very difficult for people to get along. It's like a marriage headed for divorce, but the kids want them to work it out and keep the family together. I don't know about the united part of the USA. There are forces that seem to work towards winning at all costs and part of the playbook is a divide people tact to make it easier to win. Everywhere you look for honest information they have an agenda and frame what they say conveniently cropping out ideas that don't serve their narrative, so the story or picture is not complete although they behave as if it is. At times they state ideas in a way using language that sounds as if they are saying something different than what they really believe in. You have to judge for yourself who is trying to take advantage and who is sincere.

I believe in eventual peace as we learn from all of this, but I look to increase peace, harmony and unity. One thing that I note in 5th Edition and in the D&D community and WotC a movement towards greater unity. Inviting peoples who are more and more diverse to play and orient towards it being a fun experience. The D&D community then is one of the all too few oasis-es into which I could choose to spend my time. I think groups like this you can join serve to lessen feelings of depression and anxiety. I could conceivably lower numbers of suicide, drug and alcohol related problems, violence in the home and so forth. To me it is a form of community development as folks in these groups develop closer relationships and may do other things together. 

I also believe in free will and the right for a person to choose for him or her self what they want to do. That means we don't need rules lawyers especially if we are having a good rime. We could choose to play any edition we choose as a group too. In the days of OD&D and AD&D 1st Edition we were invited to create and use any rules we wanted and yeah it put forth rules to be as realistic as possible you were invited to not use rules you found to be unwieldy. Being creative and having fun was the overarching rule. If a DM didn't want to take a lot of time searching through the books he could make a ruling on the spot, which sometimes meant an argument with someone that knew the rule. We don't really want the argument, but we could talk about this and decide on whether or not to go with the rule as printed or what the DM came up with. The DM is the final judge though and the goal is to make it a good experience.

I basically hope for everything from every edition and setting that seems incomplete or that I feel left hanging on without closure. That mostly means going back to the original campaigns of E Gary Gygax, Robert Kuntz, Dave Arneson and all the other visionaries who worked on this in the beginning days of the 1970's and '80's. That means working out issues between WotC and the remaining founding fathers or their estates concerning materials. 

I also hope for settings based on real life historical materials we have on various places or times of the past. I also hope for settings based on literature, film, comics, video games etc. I would like to play in or at least visit anywhere that you could imagine without doing all the work to set it up although I could, but official material tends to be better balanced as it is play tested. What I hope for is pretty endless. 

The recent announcements concerning Eberron and Ravnica was pretty interesting. First we have Ravnica which is a pleasant surprise and not due until November. The second being Eberron is probably the setting that was the most highly expected and the pdf is available now. That means playtesting until they finalize the materials, which might not take long and could be done before Ravnica or maybe not. It should take as long as it takes rather than push it out early. It appears that at that time you could get a PoD of it. Anyway it doesn't matter what you do to try to please everyone some still are not happy. You aim towards the most people possible.

All settings are on my list, but at the top are Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Wilderlands of High Fantasy, and Kalibruhn. After that are a number settings based on books, comics, cartoons and so forth. At the top of that list we have Tolkien's Middle Earth, The Land of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, Nehwon, Melnibone and a setting based on the cosmic horror of HP Lovecraft. O have been thinking about a setting based in ancient Africa with a kind of ewakanda feel and I could go on and on. 

Much of this is quite unlikely with some exceptions in the future, but hope springs eternal


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## gyor (Aug 3, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I think the main thing that differentiates Greyhawk from FR is it's tone: grimmer, grittier, grounded.
> 
> In that respect, 5e isn't a ideal fit - it's hard to die, and unlimited cantrips make magic a common sight.




 What do you mean by grittier, grimmier,  and grounded?  Do you just mean magic is less common.


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 3, 2018)

gyor said:


> What do you mean by grittier, grimmier,  and grounded?  Do you just mean magic is less common.




No, there is a lot more to it than that. Adventuring is a dangerous profession - most don't live long. But being a peasant farmer isn't much better. Threats are more likely to be human and morally ambigous than always chaotic evil monsters.


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## Mercurius (Aug 3, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> You didn't buy at B&N?




No. Money is tight right now and even with my B&N membership the difference was like 10 bucks. I’ve given B&N plenty of money and it isn’t like they’re a small business that needs to be supported over the mega corporation.

Why do you ask?


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## SkidAce (Aug 3, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> No. Money is tight right now and even with my B&N membership the difference was like 10 bucks. I’ve given B&N plenty of money and it isn’t like they’re a small business that needs to be supported over the mega corporation.
> 
> Why do you ask?




I struggle with where to buy game stuff on a daily basis.  I was curious as to your reasoning.

No slight intended.


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## Mercurius (Aug 3, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> I struggle with where to buy game stuff on a daily basis.  I was curious as to your reasoning.
> 
> No slight intended.




It might be an interesting thread topic. 

I buy the limited D&D books at my FLGS, and the occasional impulse buy, but everything else online: Amazon, EBay, Powell’s, occasionally Noble Knight, etc.


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## robus (Aug 4, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> It might be an interesting thread topic.
> 
> I buy the limited D&D books at my FLGS, and the occasional impulse buy, but everything else online: Amazon, EBay, Powell’s, occasionally Noble Knight, etc.




I’m starting to feel bad about sending Amazon money, they really don’t seem to have anything other than profit in mind. Miniature Market offers reasonable discounts with a good selection. Powell’s are also good though they’ve had employee issues too. I imagine Hawaii makes things more pricey, but at least the view is nice


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## Philip F Goding (Aug 4, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> No, there is a lot more to it than that. Adventuring is a dangerous profession - most don't live long. But being a peasant farmer isn't much better. Threats are more likely to be human and morally ambigous than always chaotic evil monsters.




It was a dangerous profession and you had lots of henchmen and hirelings. This way if your character died you could just take control of whomever you put next in commend and there were people to pull you out of the dungeon and get a Raise Dead or Resurrection done. They were especially important if you didn't have a group of friends available to play also. In those early days we mostly were slogging through and cleaning the monsters out of ruined castles, towers and dungeons near a town. You might also deal with whatever monsters were in the forests or wilderness between the town and these places. There might also be some intrigue in the town itself to deal with. If some elements didn't like what you were doing you might have to deal with an assassin. A lot of community development and service unless you wanted to play villains. For most of my own characters it was a way to survive as they were in a bad situation or traumatized and they had some skills in fighting or magic or being sneaky. You could fight and kill monsters without getting in trouble in a town in fact they even might pay you for it. If you were good enough you survived and you might even make some friends.


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## gyor (Aug 5, 2018)

https://youtu.be/GWfB7JzG1pw

[video=youtube_share;GWfB7JzG1pw]https://youtu.be/GWfB7JzG1pw[/video]

 I like his idea of Planeswalker being a sorcerer origin,  he makes a good argument for it.


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## vecna00 (Aug 6, 2018)

One thing to keep in mind, every setting is a product of the edition it was written for. In discussions about campaign settings, someone will always say "X doesn't belong in Y setting, because it was never there." Of course it was never there, because either it wasn't thought of yet or it wasn't part of the ruleset. Examples include: "Gnome paladins in Greyhawk are unheard of, sorcerers don't belong in Dark Sun, dwarves can't be wizards, dragonborn/tieflings/etc don't belong in Mystara." It's not that these things don't belong, they just didn't exist before or the rules didn't allow it to exist.

The way that WotC seems to be approaching things, if it's in the PHB, then it will most likely be in a campaign setting they revisit. They may say that something is rare or almost unheard of, but they won't say "You can't do the thing, because you're not allowed!"  I've tried to take this approach when I worked on some conversions of Birthright and Dark Sun, because I know it's the approach WotC will take.  And really, there's nothing wrong with that!

It goes without saying, no one can tell you what to do at your table.  If you don't want these things, you don't have to use them.  Also, this isn't meant to call anyone out or tell anyone they're wrong.  This is simply just something I've realized, but have never really said out loud.


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## QuietBrowser (Aug 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> https://youtu.be/GWfB7JzG1pw
> 
> [video=youtube_share;GWfB7JzG1pw]https://youtu.be/GWfB7JzG1pw[/video]
> 
> I like his idea of Planeswalker being a sorcerer origin,  he makes a good argument for it.



Whilst it does have some merit, it also flies in the face of Magic's lore, where any kind of mystic can become a planeswalker, and also opposes the guidelines presented in Plane Shift: Amonkhet, where WotC directly stated they want to avoid the issue of "one PC is a Planeswalker and uses that to usurp all of the attention".

I think it's more likely that, if we get Planeswalking mechanics at all, they will be mostly story function, as per the PS:Amonkhet rules. A sorcerous origin derived from the planeswalker mechanic is theoretically possible, but Ravnica isn't Sigil; it's no planar nexus (that role goes to Dominaria, in MtG lore), so I would suspect such an origin is of low priority, if any.

I want to say that I doubt they'll reprint the Volo's Guide Goblin, simply because it doesn't mechanically mesh up with the Ravnican goblin to the best of my knowledge, and it's one of the races that were officially branded "Unbalanced" in Volo's Guide. Still, I am kind of cynical about WotC's competence in a lot of ways. But, we know from an earlier teaser that goblins will be a new race in the game.

Angels would be tricky; I'd like to see them added, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were instead used as a reskin for Aasimar, perhaps with some new racial feats. I can easily see Fallen (or is it Scourge?) Aasimar as the Black/White Angels of the Orzhov.

Merfolk? Possible on the one hand, but they're not a really "iconic" Blue Mana race in Ravnica. We might just be told to reskin Tritons for them. Still, we've had Merfolk in several Planeshifts, so reprinting them here in the GMG sounds safe to me.

Centaurs... I'd like to see, and I think they're one of the bigger races associated with the Green Mana guilds.

Nicol Bolas as a new Warlock Patron? Well, we actually had a really cool Sorcerer-King Pact for warlocks in 4th edition Dark Sun, so it's not unprecedented. This is something I'd never considered before, and I actually really like the idea.

Spell restrictions against planar manipulating spells...? Yeah, I could buy that, given the emphasis on how Planeswalking is special.


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## gyor (Aug 6, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> Whilst it does have some merit, it also flies in the face of Magic's lore, where any kind of mystic can become a planeswalker, and also opposes the guidelines presented in Plane Shift: Amonkhet, where WotC directly stated they want to avoid the issue of "one PC is a Planeswalker and uses that to usurp all of the attention".
> 
> I think it's more likely that, if we get Planeswalking mechanics at all, they will be mostly story function, as per the PS:Amonkhet rules. A sorcerous origin derived from the planeswalker mechanic is theoretically possible, but Ravnica isn't Sigil; it's no planar nexus (that role goes to Dominaria, in MtG lore), so I would suspect such an origin is of low priority, if any.
> 
> ...




 Dominaria WAS the Nexus,  but the Nexus changed to a new location, I don't know where,  perhaps Ravnica given that of all the MtG settings,  it was chosen to be the one that becomes and official D&D setting in hardcover.


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## M_Mandrake2012 (Aug 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> Dominaria WAS the Nexus,  but the Nexus changed to a new location, I don't know where,  perhaps Ravnica given that of all the MtG settings,  it was chosen to be the one that becomes and official D&D setting in hardcover.




Yes indeed, it is said somewhere that recently there was quite a lot of planeswalking in Ravnica, as the barrier that existed during the guildpact is gone and the plane has much to offer. ( tough I can't find the source anymore ( somewhere in the archives of articles of lore )

As for the races , angels are too much of natural badasses to get the playable race treatment but in white's iconic creatures ( tough mostly selesnyan-locked in ravnica ) there are the loxodons
( which have also interesting lore in ravnica where they have an hard time living since they require pure air, and ravnica is a giant metropolis thus quite polluted )

And for blue creatures, while merfolk are quite emblematic, I think vedalken fit quite a bit more and are in magic quite as emblematic.

For black , there are devkarin elves but also gorgons...

I really like the idea of Nicol bolas as a patron, as for the idea of planeswalker being a sorcerous bloodline, well...

The problem is planeswalker are not especially sorcerors, at least not in the D&D kind of way, and at least at this point more than others on their plane of origin, nor are many other characters/creatures/people in magic even tough they do magic.

The thing is in MtG pretty much everything is magic : a barbarian could lit a fire juzst by raging...

So you could say everybody is a sorceror in magic... ( if everybody is a sorceror, nobody is...)

I mean yeah they do magic , but so do everybody else on most of the planes...

What I mean is, planeswalker spark should be a feat ( or you can also just assume that all players are planeswalkers, they are indeed the heroes of their own stories... ) , and spells to travel between planes be limited to "interior planes" such as shadow worlds and particularly Agyrem, ravnica own afterlife...

I've begun to write this message , hours ago , I'm not liable to respond to later messages...


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## Staffan (Aug 6, 2018)

vecna00 said:


> One thing to keep in mind, every setting is a product of the edition it was written for. In discussions about campaign settings, someone will always say "X doesn't belong in Y setting, because it was never there." Of course it was never there, because either it wasn't thought of yet or it wasn't part of the ruleset. Examples include: "Gnome paladins in Greyhawk are unheard of, sorcerers don't belong in Dark Sun, dwarves can't be wizards, dragonborn/tieflings/etc don't belong in Mystara." It's not that these things don't belong, they just didn't exist before or the rules didn't allow it to exist.
> 
> The way that WotC seems to be approaching things, if it's in the PHB, then it will most likely be in a campaign setting they revisit. They may say that something is rare or almost unheard of, but they won't say "You can't do the thing, because you're not allowed!"  I've tried to take this approach when I worked on some conversions of Birthright and Dark Sun, because I know it's the approach WotC will take.  And really, there's nothing wrong with that!




I sort of agree, but it depends a bit on the setting. Dark Sun and Birthright in particular went out of their way to mess with classes and especially races, in order to separate the setting from "vanilla" D&D. Most races are altered in those settings, both fluff- and crunchwise, and some are outright absent (e.g. gnomes in Dark Sun). Similarly, the discovery of arcane magic was a Big Deal in Dark Sun's history, and introducing a class based around a natural talent for it would feel wrong, though there you could at least refluff them as wasteland mutants of some sort.


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## vecna00 (Aug 9, 2018)

Staffan said:


> I sort of agree, but it depends a bit on the setting. Dark Sun and Birthright in particular went out of their way to mess with classes and especially races, in order to separate the setting from "vanilla" D&D. Most races are altered in those settings, both fluff- and crunchwise, and some are outright absent (e.g. gnomes in Dark Sun). Similarly, the discovery of arcane magic was a Big Deal in Dark Sun's history, and introducing a class based around a natural talent for it would feel wrong, though there you could at least refluff them as wasteland mutants of some sort.




Doesn't feel wrong to me! :-D


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