# Gauntlets and a monk's unarmed strikes



## IcyCool (Nov 22, 2005)

So, I was reading the description for gauntlets:



			
				PHB said:
			
		

> *Gauntlet*: This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes.  A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.




And I got to thinking.  Just how does a gauntlet interact with a monk's unarmed strike?

My understanding of how it would work (and feel free to correct me here) is as follows:

Assume a 1st level human fighter, who doesn't have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, is wearing +1 cold iron gauntlets.  If he strikes with the gauntlets, he provokes an attack of opportunity, does 1d3+1 + Str mod damage, can do lethal damage, and overcomes DR/magic and DR/cold iron.

Assume a 1st level human fighter, who does have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, is wearing +1 cold iron gauntlets.  If he strikes with the gauntlets, he doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity (because he is considered armed), does 1d3+1 + Str mod damage, can do lethal damage, and overcomes DR/magic and DR/cold iron.

Assume a 1st level human monk is wearing +1 cold iron gauntlets.  If he strikes with the gauntlets, he doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity (because he is considered armed), does 1d6+1 + Str mod damage, can do lethal damage, and overcomes DR/magic and Dr/cold iron.

I'm not seeing anything in the Gauntlet description that denies that the above assumptions are true.  Thoughts?


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## Neverwill (Nov 22, 2005)

I read it that way as well.  Although, the -4 for no proficiency with guantlets will most likely lead to a flurry of misses.


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 22, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Assume a 1st level human monk is wearing +1 cold iron gauntlets.  If he strikes with the gauntlets, he doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity (because he is considered armed), does 1d6+1 + Str mod damage, can do lethal damage, and overcomes DR/magic and Dr/cold iron.
> 
> I'm not seeing anything in the Gauntlet description that denies that the above assumptions are true.  Thoughts?



 If the monk is attacking with the gauntlets, why would he deal 1d6 base damage?  The gauntlets deal 1d3+1.  Also, explain how the monk could headbutt his opponent (e.g.) and yet still deal the +1 from the gauntlets or overcome DR/cold iron.


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## IcyCool (Nov 22, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> If the monk is attacking with the gauntlets, why would he deal 1d6 base damage?  The gauntlets deal 1d3+1.  Also, explain how the monk could headbutt his opponent (e.g.) and yet still deal the +1 from the gauntlets or overcome DR/cold iron.




Well,



> A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.


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## Patlin (Nov 22, 2005)

The gauntlets are (a portion of) armor.  A monk wearing them would lose many class benefits, and in order to enchant them as a weapon I think you would need to add armor spikes or something -- and armor spikes are not a special monk weapon, and do not benefit from the monks unarmed damage.

Basically, guantlets are not for monks.


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## IcyCool (Nov 23, 2005)

Patlin said:
			
		

> The gauntlets are (a portion of) armor.  A monk wearing them would lose many class benefits, and in order to enchant them as a weapon I think you would need to add armor spikes or something -- and armor spikes are not a special monk weapon, and do not benefit from the monks unarmed damage.
> 
> Basically, guantlets are not for monks.




Understandable.  I am really just interested in getting this sorted out in my head before I propose a new feat chain in Living EnWorld.  The last rules question I asked was directed here.  So I figured I'd get a headstart and start here this time.


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## IcyCool (Nov 23, 2005)

So the general consensus on this is that if you use gauntlets for your unarmed strike, you don't get to use your monk unarmed strike damage?


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## Kristivas (Nov 23, 2005)

I once thought this as well, but my DM said gaunts were considered armor too...

So, I got to thinking..  how in the heck does a monk get his unarmed attacks enchanted?  For instance....

Flaming
Holy
Thundering
...not to mention +1 through +5

Amulet of Mighty Fists?  That's a crock.  It's way way more expensive than a the equivalent weapon.

So, say I made a monk who was interested in..  say slaying demons.  How could I get his unarmed strikes to bypass their DR?  Holy would be good, if there were a way to do it.

Anyone else got any ideas?


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## dcollins (Nov 23, 2005)

3rd Edition Main FAQ, p. 27:



> _Are gauntlets and spiked gauntlets considered weapons?
> Could a monk wearing a pair of gauntlets attack and still
> apply her unarmed attack bonus and unarmed damage?
> Could the monk use her class abilities that require
> ...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 23, 2005)

> So, I got to thinking.. how in the heck does a monk get his unarmed attacks enchanted?




AFAIK, there isn't a way to do it in any WOTC product...

But Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed (from Malhavoc) has a magical ritual feat called "Hands as Weapons" that allows bare flesh to recieve weapon enchantments.  Some AU fans (myself included) also HR a feat like "Body as Armor" that does the same thing, but with armor enchantments, of course.


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## melkorspawn (Nov 23, 2005)

Kristivas said:
			
		

> How could I get his unarmed strikes to bypass their DR?  Holy would be good, if there were a way to do it.
> 
> Anyone else got any ideas?




VoP from BoED


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## Hypersmurf (Nov 23, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> AFAIK, there isn't a way to do it in any WOTC product...




Levels in Kensei.

Bracers of Striking.

-Hyp.


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 23, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> AFAIK, there isn't a way to do it in any WOTC product...



 Permanent greater magic fang?  Amulet of mighty fists?


			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> So the general consensus on this is that if you use gauntlets for your unarmed strike, you don't get to use your monk unarmed strike damage?



 I won't speak for the general consensus, but the gauntlet and the monk's unarmed strike are listed as separate damage bases.  How can you attack with the gauntlet and use a different damage die?  You're either attacking with the gauntlet or not.

But, you pointedly ignored my other question , which was how do you overcome the DR/cold iron when a monk headbutts while wearing the gauntlets?  Remember that his unarmed strike is not limited to his fists and it's only a matter of flavor whether the monk performs his unarmed strike with his fists, feet, headbutt, or whatever.


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## IcyCool (Nov 23, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> But, you pointedly ignored my other question , which was how do you overcome the DR/cold iron when a monk headbutts while wearing the gauntlets?  Remember that his unarmed strike is not limited to his fists and it's only a matter of flavor whether the monk performs his unarmed strike with his fists, feet, headbutt, or whatever.




Well, I'm not sure why you even asked it, as it doesn't seem relevant .  An unarmed strike isn't restricted to punches.  But you'll note that I asked if a monk that *strikes with the gauntlets* gets to use his monk unarmed strike damage.


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 23, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Well, I'm not sure why you even asked it, as it doesn't seem relevant .  An unarmed strike isn't restricted to punches.  But you'll note that I asked if a monk that *strikes with the gauntlets* gets to use his monk unarmed strike damage.



 Ah, but it is relevant.  I did not intend any trickery, honest, which is why I asked about a headbutt.  The point of asking is to point out that a monk's unarmed strike is with any part of his body, not just his hands or fists or knuckles or fingers.  But, you are saying that whenever a monk makes an unarmed strike, he does 1d6+1 and overcomes DR/cold iron and magic.  I'm saying that's impossible because he does not have +1 cold iron helmet, or hip pads, etc.

This comment is a direct response to your question, "Just how does a gauntlet interact with a monk's unarmed strike?"  The answer is that it doesn't because a monk's unarmed strike is much more than his hands or fists.


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## IcyCool (Nov 23, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> But, you are saying that whenever a monk makes an unarmed strike, he does 1d6+1 and overcomes DR/cold iron and magic.




Well, I didn't say that.  My assumption (which is stated in my first post) is/was as follows:


			
				Myself said:
			
		

> Assume a 1st level human monk is wearing +1 cold iron gauntlets. *If he strikes with the gauntlets*, he doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity (because he is considered armed), does 1d6+1 + Str mod damage, can do lethal damage, and overcomes DR/magic and Dr/cold iron.






			
				Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> This comment is a direct response to your question, "Just how does a gauntlet interact with a monk's unarmed strike?"  The answer is that it doesn't because a monk's unarmed strike is much more than his hands or fists.




And yet, he can choose to strike with his hands or fists.  And that is what I have been getting at.  I am well aware that anyone, not just a monk, may make unarmed strikes with any part of their body.  I know that just wearing +1 gauntlets doesn't make a monk's headbutt +1, and nowhere did I imply that it did.  I specifically asked about a monk *striking with the gauntlets*, hence my thought that your bringing it up was irrelevant.  Although, ironically, that is, essentially, the end result that I'm shooting for with the feat chain I'm putting together.

*shrug*

So I guess I have no idea what it is you are driving at.   If there is a point you are making that I'm missing, be patient with me, I'm a bit slow. 

I'll happily discuss the mechanics of said feats over in house rules, if you are interested.


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## Nac_Mac_Feegle (Nov 23, 2005)

So the real problem your coming up against is enchanting your unarmed attacks to stay on a par wiht other charcters, am I right?

Firstly, I think the monk has been designed to stop you enchanting your unarmed attacks, which is why the unarmed attack damage goes up as the monk goes up, no one else in the game can weild a weapon doing D20, and have the amount of attacks. Enchanting your unarmed attacks would make you overpowered.

So in that context, no I wouldnt allow you to use gauntlets, and still get your unarmed attack damage, because 1d3 and 1d6 arent that far apart, at level 20 1d3 and 1d20 are very much different.

However, saying that, monks do lose out as they cant have flaming or ghost touch unarmed attacks, this can make them a liability later in game, unless they choose to use monk weapons, but then thats using game rules instead of the flavour of the monk you have chosen to play (A monk should be able to choose to play unarmed, without being forced to use monk weapons)

I have 2 solutions, there are cetainly more

1 : Tattoos, there are already lots of monk tattoos, and I am not up to speed on all of them, but you could pay for an elaborate (magical tattoo) that gives you special abilities equal in price and abilites to having weapon enchants, difference is of course, you cant just swap bodies to suit occasions, so your tattoo enchants would have to be carefully thought out, I would also rule you can ONLY buy special abilites, and limit those to something suitable such as

Ghost touch
Bane
Damage Reduction

I am sure you and your GM can work something out

2 : You have some masterworked equipment made, say a headband, gloves and slippers, these are made by the same person, and are enchated at the same time, as one weapon would be, again I would limit you to just special proporties, but you could then carry different sets with different proporties like other characters might carry different weapons for different jobs

I would suggest a very supple leather, more of a clothing than armour variety, it shouldnt interfer with your unarmed damage, and by being worn on the head, hands and feet, its effects bestow the enchantment proporties to all unaremd attacks

This might cover  what I think your after than going down the gauntlet route, which just doesnt look right on a monk anyway, and theres nothing earth shattering in it. I personally would go tattoo route, leaving your hands, feet and head free for other magic items, even though the tattoo is slightly more restrictive

Feegle Out 

[edit]Damn my spelling sucks[/edit]


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 23, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> And yet, he can choose to strike with his hands or fists.  And that is what I have been getting at.  I am well aware that anyone, not just a monk, may make unarmed strikes with any part of their body.



 The choice of punching your opponent or headbutting him is purely flavor.  It would be like describing your sword strike as overhand vs. sideways vs. stabbing.  Do you give +2 on damage for an overhand strike (sans any feats I'm unaware of)?  No, of course not.  Thus, there's no advantage to the person describing an "unarmed strike" as anything specific.  What I'm saying is that if the monk wants to attack using the gauntlets, he must specifically _attack with the gauntlets_, not with his monk's unarmed strike, which is not so limited.  Just because attacking with the gauntlets is otherwise an unarmed attack does not mean the monk can use a different damage die when attacking with the gauntlets.

(warning: argument to reason logical fallacy ahead ) If your interpretation of the gauntlet use was per the rules, then wouldn't that make an amulet of mighty fists a waste of money?  The only benefit would be to allow attacks with non-fists, but it's at such a higher price as to make that option utterly stupid.  Not only that, but it really hoses monks from races without hands (no gauntlet slot) because gauntlets are clearly not just the best way, but the only way to go to enhance your unarmed strike.



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> I'll happily discuss the mechanics of said feats over in house rules, if you are interested.



 I stop in there from time to time, but if you post it I'll happily comment on it.


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## IcyCool (Nov 23, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> Just because attacking with the gauntlets is otherwise an unarmed attack does not mean the monk can use a different damage die when attacking with the gauntlets.




See?  I knew that if we talked long enough, you'd get around to answering my question. 



			
				Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> (warning: argument to reason logical fallacy ahead ) If your interpretation of the gauntlet use was per the rules, then wouldn't that make an amulet of mighty fists a waste of money?  The only benefit would be to allow attacks with non-fists, but it's at such a higher price as to make that option utterly stupid.  Not only that, but it really hoses monks from races without hands (no gauntlet slot) because gauntlets are clearly not just the best way, but the only way to go to enhance your unarmed strike.




I don't think it would make an amulet of mighty fists a waste of money.  Anyone with natural attacks benefits from the amulet (and if you have 4 or more natural attacks, you are getting a huge benefit out of it).

Edit - judging by the responses I've gotten here, I'm going to stop working on this, as it is unlikely that it would get approved.  I was shooting for a short, two feat chain, the first of which made Spiked Gauntlets into a special monk weapon (Razing Metal Fist Strike), and the second which let you substitute your unarmed strike damage for the gauntlet damage, while still benefitting from the gauntlet's enchantments and special material (Metal Fist Mastery).  I was thinking of restricting it to Orcs and Orc-blooded races, as it seemed fairly appropriate for them.


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 23, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> See?  I knew that if we talked long enough, you'd get around to answering my question.



 Quite honestly, I thought my very first response answered that, but I guess it just needed rewording.  No problem though, as you can tell I like to discuss the rules.   



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> Edit - judging by the responses I've gotten here, I'm going to stop working on this, as it is unlikely that it would get approved.  I was shooting for a short, two feat chain, the first of which made Spiked Gauntlets into a special monk weapon, and the second which let you substitute your unarmed strike damage for the gauntlet damage, while still benefitting from the gauntlet's enchantments and special material.



 
But that feat chain is exactly what you would need according to my interpretation.  I'd personally switch the order because you'll get far more advantage that way and it makes more sense to me.  Something like this (suggested houserule encased in the sblock):

[sblock] *Gauntlet Strike [General]*
*Prerequisites*
Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +1. 

*Benefit*
You may substitute your unarmed strike damage for the gauntlet damage while still benefitting from the gauntlet's enhancements and special materials.

*Special*
You must declare that you attack with your hands to gain the advantage of the gauntlets and therefore you must have at least one hand free.

*Normal*
When attacking with gauntlets, you do base 1d3 damage as a medium character, not your monk unarmed strike damage.

*Armored Flurry [General]*
*Prerequisites*
Improved Unarmed Strike, Gauntlet Strike, base attack bonus +3, monk. 

*Benefit*
Attacking with gauntlets is treated as a monk weapon and thus may be used in a flurry of blows.

*Normal*
You cannot attack with gauntlets in a flurry of blows.[/sblock]


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## IcyCool (Nov 23, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> But that feat chain is exactly what you would need according to my interpretation.  I'd personally switch the order because you'll get far more advantage that way and it makes more sense to me.




Ah, note that I said Spiked Gauntlets (a light, simple weapon).  What I was unsure about was, should I also include Gauntlets (an unarmed strike).  It seems like there might just be too many issues with that, so I just focused on Spiked Gauntlets.  I went with the same style as the Eberron feats that let you use a non-monk weapon as a monk weapon (Serpent Strike, Whirling Steel Strike, etc.).  I tried to avoid letting a monk get around its inherent limitations with a single feat, hence the feats placement in the chain.

[sblock=Metal Fist Strike]
*Metal Fist Strike [General]*
*Prerequisites*
Simple Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Gauntlets), Weapon Focus (Spiked Gauntlets), Flurry of Blows.

*Benefit*
You may treat the Spiked Gauntlet as a special monk weapon.[/sblock]

[sblock=Metal Fist Mastery] 
*Metal Fist Mastery [General]*
*Prerequisites*
Metal Fist Strike 

*Benefit*
You may substitute your unarmed strike damage for the spiked gauntlet damage while still benefitting from the spiked gauntlet's enhancements and special materials.

*Special*
You must have at least one hand free to use this feat.

*Normal*
When attacking with spiked gauntlets, you do base 1d4 damage as a medium character, not your monk unarmed strike damage.[/sblock]


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Nov 23, 2005)

Good proposed feats, IcyCool.


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