# Changing of the Feats?



## Water Bob (Jul 23, 2010)

Is there a method whereby a character can change out feats?  I'm talking 3.5E here.  Where he stops using previously picked feats but replaces them with new ones?

I'm just curious.  This happens in real life.  I was decent at roller skating once, when I was in 6th grade.  But, if I put on a pair of skates today, I doubt I'd get far without falling.

So, can a character exchange out his feat choices anywhere in the process of gaming?  Would this cost him to do so?  XP?  Or, would it be free?  Or, maybe it's just impossible to do so?

Thoughts?


----------



## Dandu (Jul 23, 2010)

There are retraining rules in the PHB2 and the _Psychic Reformation_ power in the XPH.


----------



## IronWolf (Jul 23, 2010)

Water Bob said:


> So, can a character exchange out his feat choices anywhere in the process of gaming?  Would this cost him to do so?  XP?  Or, would it be free?  Or, maybe it's just impossible to do so?




The PHB2 has some retraining rules.

Some can depend on the DM as well.  The DM in our game works with us if we want to change feats around.  Sometimes a character direction changes and having the chance to swap feats out is nice to be able to do.  As you said a person changes over time.

In our current campaign I moved from a two-weapon fighting ranger to a ranged type ranger and retrained several feats to do so.  It went well with the campaign story due to events, so though it was a signicant change for the character it fit in pretty well, as there was a specific event that made this character change his focus to the bow as opposed to his previous fighting style.  The DM worked with me and over the course of a few levels was able to get things swapped out as I wanted.  It worked well.


----------



## HoboGod (Jul 23, 2010)

If you don't have the PHB2, the quick and dirty explanation of retraining feats is that you can choose to do so ONCE each time you level up. You can't take a feat which would be impossible to have legally obtained without feat substitution. For example, a 7th level barbarian swapping his first level feat for something that requires a base attack bonus of +6 would not be allowed.


----------



## Water Bob (Jul 23, 2010)

HoboGod said:


> If you don't have the PHB2, the quick and dirty explanation of retraining feats is that you can choose to do so ONCE each time you level up. You can't take a feat which would be impossible to have legally obtained without feat substitution. For example, a 7th level barbarian swapping his first level feat for something that requires a base attack bonus of +6 would not be allowed.




I like that.  Seems fair and balanced.


----------



## Particle_Man (Jul 24, 2010)

You could always get killed and have raise dead cast on you, repeating the cycle until you are low level enough to lose the feats you don't want, and then adventure some to regain those lost levels and pick new feats.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 24, 2010)

I don't like the PH2 retraining rules, I prefer to just let a player freely retrain things he doesn't like, so long as he's not blatantly exploiting the system and just genuinely isn't liking his feat selection(s).  If your DM is a hard ass, though, PH2 is the "official" way to do it.


----------



## IronWolf (Jul 24, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> I don't like the PH2 retraining rules, I prefer to just let a player freely retrain things he doesn't like, so long as he's not blatantly exploiting the system and just genuinely isn't liking his feat selection(s).  If your DM is a hard ass, though, PH2 is the "official" way to do it.




I like your take on this.  If the player isn't trying to swap feats to exploit the system and simply finds that his initial idea for the character isn't playing out as he expected, then I would make accommodations to allow the player to tweak the character through feat retraining.  Sometimes an initial character idea just doesn't play out as well as one expected it to.


----------



## Jhaelen (Jul 26, 2010)

Well, if everything else fails, there's always Psychic Reformation.


----------



## Dandu (Jul 26, 2010)

Gee, I wish I'd mentioned that.


----------



## HoboGod (Jul 26, 2010)

The problems many DMs have with letting a character pick to retrain their feats without some kind of process is that it can sometimes get ridiculous in terms of roleplaying. It's maybe not so bad with a rogue or paladin, but when a fighter turns from a gentleman who uses a mix of combat expertise with improved disarm to fence his opponents into submission into an underhanded bastard that trips his opponents with a scythe and takes advantage of as many opportunist strikes as possible, it's bizarre and should require a gradual process rather than a sudden one. Another example, an evocation type sorcerer who specializes in metamagical feats suddenly switches feats to take corpse crafter and the line of feats associated to it to become a necromancer, who gains this kind of mastery over night?


----------



## Dandu (Jul 26, 2010)

Someone with access to Limited Wish, that's who.


----------



## IronWolf (Jul 26, 2010)

HoboGod said:


> The problems many DMs have with letting a character pick to retrain their feats without some kind of process is that it can sometimes get ridiculous in terms of roleplaying. It's maybe not so bad with a rogue or paladin, but when a fighter turns from a gentleman who uses a mix of combat expertise with improved disarm to fence his opponents into submission into an underhanded bastard that trips his opponents with a scythe and takes advantage of as many opportunist strikes as possible, it's bizarre and should require a gradual process rather than a sudden one. Another example, an evocation type sorcerer who specializes in metamagical feats suddenly switches feats to take corpse crafter and the line of feats associated to it to become a necromancer, who gains this kind of mastery over night?




Yeah, I am sure one's comfort level of process-less retraining can vary widely due to many circumstances and experience with the system.  

Even several of the scenarios painted above I can think of roleplaying "fluff" that a character could do or could have impacted their decision to change things up a bit.  I would recommend to one allowing this that they play that change up, what has changed with the character to want them to change focus or what they specialize at.

Mechanically, even without strict process in place the DM could say that the changes have to be spread across 2 or 3 levels of advancement and not necessarily done in one fell swoop.  But as you said, some DMs may not have the confidence to tackle this without a process pre-defined.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 26, 2010)

HoboGod said:


> The problems many DMs have with letting a character pick to retrain their feats without some kind of process is that it can sometimes get ridiculous in terms of roleplaying. It's maybe not so bad with a rogue or paladin, but when a fighter turns from a gentleman who uses a mix of combat expertise with improved disarm to fence his opponents into submission into an underhanded bastard that trips his opponents with a scythe and takes advantage of as many opportunist strikes as possible, it's bizarre and should require a gradual process rather than a sudden one. Another example, an evocation type sorcerer who specializes in metamagical feats suddenly switches feats to take corpse crafter and the line of feats associated to it to become a necromancer, who gains this kind of mastery over night?




I'd handle it the same way the PH says to handle multiclassing in general: Lidda didn't just suddenly gain a wizard level, she's been peeking over Mialee's shoulder, getting pointers from her for weeks/months now, honest! 

The Fighter's presumably been working on developing his new/different technique "off camera" for some time now when the change occurs.

What's more disconcerting to your ability to immerse yourself?  That, or having a player bring in a new character because he's really hating how his current one turned out and really doesn't want to have to put up with him for another few sessions when he considers it a *game* and thus wants to have *fun*?  Just saying...


----------



## HoboGod (Jul 26, 2010)

Yeah, it's a delicate trade-off. Every time somebody brings a new character to the table it's often a boring and predictable encounter. They meet, they talk, everyone becomes friends with the new guy. If a player comes to me and says they hate their character so much that they need to change everything or they're going to build a new character, yeah, I often cave on the rules. However, what I tend to notice is that people don't surprise themselves with how horrible something is, it's a gradual process. When people are surprised like that, it's usually from the level they just took. I tend to be flexible when people take a new level in that my players can redo their current level at any time (strictly if they made a mistake, not if they want an advantage against the dragon they have to fight soon). So in that sense, the PHB2 rules are for those things you liked at one time, kept, but don't want any more.


----------

