# Netflix Luke Cage Review (Spoilers allowed now :))



## Tonguez (Oct 2, 2016)

Okay I've just watched the series and wanted to gather your thoughts.

First thing to note is that this is not the Luke Cage of the comics. How he gets his powers is similar but modified and the characters are reimagined, this Luke is a lot more loquacious than the strong silent type of the comic and notably Not a Harlem native. Thats noteworthy as this story is very much about Harlem - a commentary on the nature of Blackness in modern America, so much so that its mix of Hip-Hop sensibilities, Black History and Bulletproof Blackman sometimes dominated the superhero story which was also being told. 

Thats one of the hurdles of this story, it mixes its Black History with Origin Stories of the protagonist,Pops Harlem, Luke trying to live a normal life in extraordinary circumstances, the family/political drama between Cottonmouth and Mariah, the Misty Knights Police procedural and the debate between Superheroics and Vigilantism and doing right as a Black Man in a system that doesn't want you >Yo *FIST* Yo<.

For the first few episodes of the series, these weave and flow and I was satisfied. The acting is good and the story a lot more hopeful than the angst ridden Jessica Jones and sanguine grimness of Daredevil. Having already met Luke Cage was advantageous as we could dive more in to what he was doing as well as having time to get a lot of fun Easter-egg references.

However the second phase quickly began to drag and unravel. They introduce another villain (spoiler) who is too similar to Cottonmouth and given far too much to do. I personally would have dropped Cottonmouth from the story or at least given the second villain a more focused role as 'comic-book assasin/terrorist'

It makes me think that the 13 episode structure Netflix is imposing on these shows is too long and they should instead be confining them down to 10 episodes to get tighter narratives.

ANYWAY
I liked Luke Cage and Shades too (he gave me a Victor Zsasz vibe), and (SPOILER) I really liked the arc they gave to Night Nurse*. Also the set up for the Defenders was cool

Black Mariah was maybe a bit too understated for my liking and the other villains too predictable to the point of being cartoonish  

*thats not a spoiler is it, we all knew she was gonna be in the show

So what do you all think?


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 2, 2016)

Only into the second episode as I type this. So far it's coming off as a more positive version of the "Blackspoitation" movies I remember from the late '60s and the '70s. I'm enjoying it so far.

My biggest question is how a 53 year old white boy like me immediately recognized a picture of Biggie Smalls.


----------



## Kramodlog (Oct 3, 2016)

I'm five episodes in and it is boring. It isn't terrible and I can't pin point a really bad thing. It is just meh. 

Maybe it will pick up later on with some worth wild stakes or feel Cage is in danger at some point.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 3, 2016)

It will be a couple weeks before I get around to it.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Oct 3, 2016)

It is the best thing Marvel has done in the MCU, at least since Avengers. Maybe since 1st Iron Man, maybe at all.

the use of live music (Long Live The Chief!), the genuine dialogue, the way Harlem itself is a character in the show, the total lack of respectability politics, the freaking amazing cast...it's just...one of the best shows I've watched in years.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 3, 2016)

doctorbadwolf said:


> It is the best thing Marvel has done in the MCU, at least since Avengers. Maybe since 1st Iron Man, maybe at all.
> 
> the use of live music (Long Live The Chief!), the genuine dialogue, the way Harlem itself is a character in the show, the total lack of respectability politics, the freaking amazing cast...it's just...one of the best shows I've watched in years.




A friend pointed out something about that cast, which I hadn't considered, and it's likely part of why this show seems to work so well. It also seems to apply to the other Netflix Marvel shows. While the majority of the cast could be called attractive, very few of them present with that Hollywood pretty-pretty appearance. They're believable as people you might see on the streets.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Oct 3, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> A friend pointed out something about that cast, which I hadn't considered, and it's likely part of why this show seems to work so well. It also seems to apply to the other Netflix Marvel shows. While the majority of the cast could be called attractive, very few of them present with that Hollywood pretty-pretty appearance. They're believable as people you might see on the streets.




Sure, it helps that no one looks airbrushed to "perfection" in these shows, but that's true of Daredevil and Jessica Jones, and I don't think either reaches the same level of excellence as Luke Cage. They're great, but LC is something altogether different, IMO. I think a big part of it is the music, lighting, and these actors, and the way it is just such a genuine story, in spite of the superhero stuff.


----------



## Homicidal_Squirrel (Oct 3, 2016)

doctorbadwolf said:


> It is the best thing Marvel has done in the MCU, at least since Avengers. Maybe since 1st Iron Man, maybe at all.
> 
> the use of live music (Long Live The Chief!), the genuine dialogue, the way Harlem itself is a character in the show, the total lack of respectability politics, the freaking amazing cast...it's just...one of the best shows I've watched in years.



I wouldn't say it's the best thing Marvel has done, but I'll agree that the use of live music (Long Live The Chief), was amazing. I had not heard that song before, and after hearing it, I had to go look it up. They had a lot of good music. The dialogue was good, but there were instances where it just seemed a bit forced.

I liked the show for the most part. I wasn't a fan of some of the slang being used. It was very 60s/70s type slang. I get that Luke Cage comes from the blacksploitation genre, but they set it in modern day Harlem. Maybe that kind of slang is still used in Harlem, or some parts of Harlem, but as someone who doesn't have that level of familiarity, it felt a bit odd and out of place to me. 

Some of the characters also felt a bit out of place. They felt as if they would fit well in a blacksploitation film, but just didn't feel right in a modern day setting. At times it kind of felt like I was watching a serious version of I'm Gonna Git You Sucka that didn't know it was supposed to be funny. Fortunately that wasn't very often. 

I liked it. I may not have liked it as much as Daredevil (haven't watch Jessica Jones), but Luke Cage was a pretty good show. I'm curious to see how next season goes.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Oct 3, 2016)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> I wouldn't say it's the best thing Marvel has done, but I'll agree that the use of live music (Long Live The Chief), was amazing. I had not heard that song before, and after hearing it, I had to go look it up. They had a lot of good music. The dialogue was good, but there were instances where it just seemed a bit forced.
> 
> I liked the show for the most part. I wasn't a fan of some of the slang being used. It was very 60s/70s type slang. I get that Luke Cage comes from the blacksploitation genre, but they set it in modern day Harlem. Maybe that kind of slang is still used in Harlem, or some parts of Harlem, but as someone who doesn't have that level of familiarity, it felt a bit odd and out of place to me.
> 
> ...




Lol we know different ppl. The slang was spot on, for me. I thought the show did a great job of making he slang and general mannerism generational. I'm neither Black nor from Harlem, but the show feels right to me based on the people I'm close with, and the predominantly Black neighborhoods Ive lived and worked in, so I think it's a just a matter of experience on that part.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 3, 2016)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Sure, it helps that no one looks airbrushed to "perfection" in these shows, but that's true of Daredevil and Jessica Jones, and I don't think either reaches the same level of excellence as Luke Cage. They're great, but LC is something altogether different, IMO. I think a big part of it is the music, lighting, and these actors, and the way it is just such a genuine story, in spite of the superhero stuff.




I'd say that, over time, they're getting a much better handle on this style of story presentation.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Oct 3, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> I'd say that, over time, they're getting a much better handle on this style of story presentation.




I mean, could be. Or, Luke Cage is just an exceptionally good show, with an excellent cast, writing, cinematography and music. Maybe, Luke is just a more compelling character than Matt, and Jessica didn't get to shine as well as she could have because her show focused too much on Kilgrave. 

I mean, anything is possible.


----------



## Homicidal_Squirrel (Oct 4, 2016)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Lol we know different ppl.



Obviously, captain. 


> The slang was spot on, for me. I thought the show did a great job of making he slang and general mannerism generational. I'm neither Black nor from Harlem, but the show feels right to me based on the people I'm close with, and the predominantly Black neighborhoods Ive lived and worked in, so I think it's a just a matter of experience on that part.



It was hit or miss, but mostly hit, for me. I'm guessing that I should have seen Jessica Jones before seeing Luke Cage. There seem to be a few references to Jessica Jones throughout the show. There where several references to Daredevil's lawyer alter ego in the last episode. I'm wondering if there will be a crossover between Daredevil and Luke Cage in the next season of either one of the shows.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 4, 2016)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I mean, could be. Or, Luke Cage is just an exceptionally good show, with an excellent cast, writing, cinematography and music. Maybe, Luke is just a more compelling character than Matt, and Jessica didn't get to shine as well as she could have because her show focused too much on Kilgrave.
> 
> I mean, anything is possible.




I'm still undecided about where Luke Cage ranks as compared to DD and JJ, but I do think the character was a whole lot more relatable than the other two. Not being from USA I only know 'African American' culture via TV and movies but I could see Luke Cage as just a regular guy living in his slice of life, whereas JJ and DD were far more 'niche' characters ie JJ as rape survivor dealing with her trauma and DD as righteous Vigilante. 



Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Obviously, captain.
> It was hit or miss, but mostly hit, for me. I'm guessing that I should have seen Jessica Jones before seeing Luke Cage. There seem to be a few references to Jessica Jones throughout the show. There where several references to Daredevil's lawyer alter ego in the last episode. I'm wondering if there will be a crossover between Daredevil and Luke Cage in the next season of either one of the shows.




I think that was all very much build up to the Defenders Crossover when all four shows will converge. Apparently the line up after Luke Cage is Iron Fist - Defenders - DD 3 - Punisher. Theres a  whole 'Heroes for Hire' spin coming through Luke Cage which is kinda neat


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Oct 4, 2016)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Obviously, captain.
> It was hit or miss, but mostly hit, for me. I'm guessing that I should have seen Jessica Jones before seeing Luke Cage. There seem to be a few references to Jessica Jones throughout the show. There where several references to Daredevil's lawyer alter ego in the last episode. I'm wondering if there will be a crossover between Daredevil and Luke Cage in the next season of either one of the shows.




Also "Turk" is in the first two episodes of Luke Cage, and recurs in Daredevil in both seasons. And obv Night Nurse. I don't think you  see to watch JJ to get Luke Cage, but it does make the timeline slightly more concrete, explains why he is in Harlem, etc. 

JJ is worth watching anyway, though. It deals with heavy stuff, but if you aren't squeamish, it's great tv.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Oct 4, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> I'm still undecided about where Luke Cage ranks as compared to DD and JJ, but I do think the character was a whole lot more relatable than the other two. Not being from USA I only know 'African American' culture via TV and movies but I could see Luke Cage as just a regular guy living in his slice of life, whereas JJ and DD were far more 'niche' characters ie JJ as rape survivor dealing with her trauma and DD as righteous Vigilante.



 See, that is why I don't like how much JJ focuses on Kilgrave. She is so much more multi-faceted than that, and it sucks that the entire season is just Kilgrave. Every episode, practically every part of every episode. There is barely room for any other story thread. I didn't sign up for the Kilgrave Show, I wanted to watch Jessica Jones. And now that that is resolved, we gotta wait until after Defenders for more Jessica Jones? Wtf? Why does Marvel hate their female characters so much!? Lol only kinda kidding :/


----------



## Jester David (Oct 4, 2016)

Two episodes in. Still undecided. 

I've mentioned before that Cage/ Power Man was never a character I liked. The mercenary aspect of the "Hero for Hire" never sat well with me. (Never liked Iron Fist for the H4H aspect either...) And his powers never allowed much tension or danger: it's a little like Superman in that respect, but without the nobility (or Clark Kent aspect).  The idea of a street hero that was invulnerable never grabbed me in a way like Batman or Daredevil did. I liked the vulnerability of the characters, and succeeding despite the odds.

Plus I'm super white. Super white _and_ Canadian. Not as many black people up here. And being in the western half of the country, the visible minorities tend to skew to Southeast Asian and First Nations. The local inner city (where I spent many years) doesn't much feel like Harlem. So the "Black Culture" aspect is distant, the stereotypes and history is completely lost, and I have only a passing knowledge of the tropes being employed or flipped. The racial tensions here are entirely different; it just doesn't resonate for me. For instance, it was just under a year ago I learned why Barber Shops are a thing for African Americans, having had to google that for an answer. 
And I wince inside sooooo hard every time the N-word comes up.
We were having a discussion about inclusion and acceptance in another thread (on how well D&D is selling). Which felt very apt, because when I watch _Luke Cage_ I get that "unwelcome" feeling. Like this isn't my community and I'm an interloper. (It's why I tried and stopped watching _Boondocks_. Or _Sex and the City_ for that matter. Or any time I was at a sports bar with friends and there was a game on.) 
Now despite this, I'm pretty strongly pro _Luke Cage_ existing. Because I know that even if it doesn't feel comfortable to me, there's someone who it does resonate for. There are almost certainly Cage fans very excited about the show. Because I love the idea of genre shows appealing to all types of people, and getting as many people into genre television as possible. It's a big tent and everyone is welcome, and I am not the gatekeeper for what is acceptable. The more the merrier. 
I'm almost certain to sit through the rest of _Luke Cage_ despite my feelings, to give it the ratings it deserves.


The show itself has the usual Marvel/Netflix pacing problems. Were this a movie, the first two episodes would have been the initial 30 minutes. The origin story moment. Heck, it's been two episodes in and the "money shot" scene that was in the trailer (Cage with the car door taking out a building of thugs) hasn't happened yet. It wasn't even until the end of the first episode that we saw him actually in action.
(Plus, the first episode pretty much establishes that Cage's character arc for the season might very well be "learn to take money for being a hero". Ugh.)

I'm super not a fan of spreading out the "origin" of the character over the entire season. It was the weakest part of _Daredevil_ season 1. And having it repeated for the Punisher in season 2 was painful as well. I'd almost prefer if they broke the season into a couple arcs. It would have helped _Jessica Jones_ as well, since it wouldn't have spend thirteen episodes on the same villain. I'd be happier if Cage was a "hero for hire" by the end of episode 6 or 7, but I expect that will be the very last scene. 

It was fun seeing Turk pop up. I like the continuity between it and the other Marvel shows, and the references to "the Incident". 

I quite enjoy the differing views of power between Cottonmouth and his sister. Really, Cottonmouth is interesting in a way Fisk was not, being both dark and likable. And how he actually cares about people rather than just being eeeevil. He's the more human of the two Netflix crime bosses. Shades is also pretty fun, also exuding menace while also drifting occasionally into likability.

Beyond that I can't really say much. Because it doesn't feel like there's much else to say. Not enough has actually happened to really give feedback on.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 4, 2016)

Yeah, you get me my Canadian brother  I'm in the Toronto area, so some of the stuff is more relevant to me.

You have to remember the origins of the Luke Cage character. He was created in 1972. It was the era of the Blacksploitation films. "Shaft" was 1971. "Black Belt Jones" with the trailer tagline "He's big, he's bad, and he's Black" was in 1974. "B, gimme my money" was the sort of thing you would hear in those movies. Money and power were king. "Heroes for Hire" slotted right into that world, without a bump.

Cage's problem is that everyone around him dies, while he goes on living. That's where the tension largely comes from; creating a sort of archetypal Black man who watches friends and family being killed off int he crossfire. He's also not completely invulnerable; merely hard to kill.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Oct 4, 2016)

I've never really understood why some don't like the thing where heroes get paid for heroing. Can someone explain? 

I mean, it's never been a case of them like, letting people die if they can't pay them or anything. In fact, that is part of the tension. They need money, because super powers don't make things like rent and groceries disappear, but they also can't just watch people get hurt and not do anything. 

The heroes for hire thing always always made more sense to me than characters like Superman. There is no way Clark does a good enough job to keep his job, much less ever get anywhere, with the amount of time he spends being Superman, unless he barely sleeps, and yet he is always rested and together. 
That's why I like Marvel, they get into the real life stuff more. Spidey is broke half the time, and never gets enough sleep, and can't keep his personal life together, because being Spider-Man is exhausting! 
So Luke and friends take jobs as super heroes, instead of trying to live a double life. 

Idk sorry for the rant.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 4, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> Yeah, you get me my Canadian brother  I'm in the Toronto area, so some of the stuff is more relevant to me.
> 
> You have to remember the origins of the Luke Cage character. He was created in 1972. It was the era of the Blacksploitation films. "Shaft" was 1971. "Black Belt Jones" with the trailer tagline "He's big, he's bad, and he's Black" was in 1974. "B, gimme my money" was the sort of thing you would hear in those movies. Money and power were king. "Heroes for Hire" slotted right into that world, without a bump.
> 
> Cage's problem is that everyone around him dies, while he goes on living. That's where the tension largely comes from; creating a sort of archetypal Black man who watches friends and family being killed off int he crossfire. He's also not completely invulnerable; merely hard to kill.




I liked how that was called out in the show with Misty's "You might be bulletproof but Harlem aint"

and I also think thats an important difference between Luke Cage and other heroes like DD or Bats. Luke Cage is a hero for his community and Harlem is an active character in the story. DD is physically vunerable and the story focuses on him as one man against the Criminal underworld, Luke however isn't one man, he's Every-man in Harlem and the threats he faces are threats to his community.

That he does it for money is a thing which the Netflix specifically calls out again when Connie offers to Pay and he replies "I'm not for Hire" but thats covered later in the show too, via Bobby Fish needing to pay the bills on the Barbershop.

Also Jessica Jones was using her powers to help  with her job and the Avengers survived because Stark (and now Black Panther(?)) is paying the bills.

(btw I just googled Barbershop in African American culture based on this thread)


----------



## Homicidal_Squirrel (Oct 4, 2016)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Also "Turk" is in the first two episodes of Luke Cage, and recurs in Daredevil in both seasons. And obv Night Nurse.



Very true.  I don't think you see to watch JJ to get Luke Cage, but it does make the timeline slightly more concrete, explains why he is in Harlem, etc. [/quote] 



> JJ is worth watching anyway, though. It deals with heavy stuff, but if you aren't squeamish, it's great tv.



It's definitely great TV. It touches on some current issues, which may be off-putting to some, but I found it quite good.


----------



## Homicidal_Squirrel (Oct 4, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> I think that was all very much build up to the Defenders Crossover when all four shows will converge. Apparently the line up after Luke Cage is Iron Fist - Defenders - DD 3 - Punisher. Theres a  whole 'Heroes for Hire' spin coming through Luke Cage which is kinda neat



That sounds like it could be great.. or greatly frustrating. Netflix has a 6 month schedule for their shows. Ironfist isn't coming out until March 2017. That means the rest of the shows are going to be far off. I may not live to see it with a hurricane barreling down on Florida this week. Damn it, Netflix!!!!


----------



## Homicidal_Squirrel (Oct 4, 2016)

Jester David said:


> It was fun seeing Turk pop up. I like the continuity between it and the other Marvel shows, and the references to "the Incident".



I like that they had Turk, but he felt a bit underused. I wish they had done a little more with him. 



> I quite enjoy the differing views of power between Cottonmouth and his sister. Really, Cottonmouth is interesting in a way Fisk was not, being both dark and likable. And how he actually cares about people rather than just being eeeevil. He's the more human of the two Netflix crime bosses. Shades is also pretty fun, also exuding menace while also drifting occasionally into likability.



I thought Cottonmouth was an awesome character. I liked him. I wasn't a fan of Shades. He just didn't do it for me. He seems like a character that is supposed to be significant, but he never really reaches that potential. I'm hoping they develop him better in season 2, which will probably be released September of 2069 or something.


----------



## Waylander the Slayer (Oct 4, 2016)

Loved it- very relate-able, growing up in NYC. The second half and the "new villiain" though made it a bit tedious and I felt took it off track.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 4, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> whereas JJ and DD were far more 'niche' characters ie JJ as rape survivor dealing with her trauma and DD as righteous Vigilante.




DD I'll give you as niche.  Not many lawyers out there looking to bust heads.

But JJ?  The Center for Disease Control did a study in 2011, which suggests that about 20% of women are raped at some point in their lives, and some 44% suffer that, or some other form of sexual violence.  That's not niche any more - that's mainstream.  It is something many women can personally relate to, and something that pretty much all women fear.  In terms of ability of a population to relate to her issue (or the metaphor the show presents) this is not some obscure case.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Oct 4, 2016)

Umbran said:


> DD I'll give you as niche.  Not many lawyers out there looking to bust heads.
> 
> But JJ?  The Center for Disease Control did a study in 2011, which suggests that about 20% of women are raped at some point in their lives, and some 44% suffer that, or some other form of sexual violence.  That's not niche any more - that's mainstream.  It is something many women can personally relate to, and something that pretty much all women fear.  In terms of ability of a population to relate to her issue (or the metaphor the show presents) this is not some obscure case.




Great point. Definitely far from a niche character in that regard. 

Thinking on it, the only thing niche about the rest of her character is that it's packaged in a female character. The hard drinking, cynical, badass investigator is...not exactly a rare character. Nor is the reluctantly heroic a-hole with a soft spot for kicked puppies they try to deny, or the loner whose only friends stay friends because they believe she can be better. 

I mean, I can't really think of anything about her that isn't relatable to some sizable portion of the populace, and plenty that's very familiar to pretty much any audience. 

And obviously she resonates, because she's always been a hugely popular character. 



Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Very true.  I don't think you [need] to watch JJ to get Luke Cage, but it does make the timeline slightly more concrete, explains why he is in Harlem, etc.





 It's definitely great TV. It touches on some current issues, which may be off-putting to some, but I found it quite good.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. It was rreally, really refreshing (for lack of a stronger word ATM), to watch a show that treated that topic with genuine seriousness and understanding of what survivors deal with, and how perpetrators refuse to even understand what they've done, much less take responsibility for it. 

And, more satisfying than it maybe should have been to watch the...resolution of that conflict. 

But it was also frustrating to watch the internet start shipping them (I have a friend who had a major anxiety attack after getting death threats in her ask box on tumblr from MRAs who ship JJ/Kilgrave, after she made a fairly tame post about it being a toxic ship/it being not ok to ship a rapist and their victim), and I didn't really dig how the _entire_ season was so much about Kilgrave. I think a solid two episodes before he showed up at all would have greatly improved the show, as would 1 or 2 fewer episodes overall. 

But I also think DD S1 could have been a good 2 episodes shorter with nothing really lost.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 4, 2016)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> That sounds like it could be great.. or greatly frustrating. Netflix has a 6 month schedule for their shows. Ironfist isn't coming out until March 2017. That means the rest of the shows are going to be far off. I may not live to see it with a hurricane barreling down on Florida this week. Damn it, Netflix!!!!




Have you ever seen "Fanboys"? If you're convincing enough, maybe they'll let you see it early


----------



## Derren (Oct 5, 2016)

Watched it, but didn't find it to be that interesting.

Harlem was too stereotypical as that I would have liked or cared about it. And there was no real suspense. When you have a invulnerable guy fighting ghetto gangsters its not really much of a contest. And if you take away his invulnerability you have a generic "Guy wants to save his community from gangster" series which I have seen so often already.

And I do not really see how this fits into the MU. Sure, I know what they are going for with JJ, DD and LC. But with SHIELD being reinstated and the Sakovia Accords in effect Cage is way too open with his power, no way they wouldn't have picked him up by now.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 5, 2016)

Derren said:


> And I do not really see how this fits into the MU. Sure, I know what they are going for with JJ, DD and LC. But with SHIELD being reinstated and the Sakovia Accords in effect Cage is way too open with his power, no way they wouldn't have picked him up by now.




The timelines not clear so I'm going with the idea that Lukes story happens just before or in parallel to 'Civil War' which means 1) the Sokovia Accord isn't in effect 2) SHIELD is still recovering and 3) all of their resources are being dedicated to the Avengers break up.

whats more pertinent is that The Incident still looms large in public consciousness yet nobody in Harlem seems to remember Hulk and Abomination's "Harlem Terror"


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 5, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> whats more pertinent is that The Incident still looms large in public consciousness yet nobody in Harlem seems to remember Hulk and Abomination's "Harlem Terror"




That's because they actually tore up Yonge Street in Toronto, right in front of my day job, not Harlem 

That production is too far back in time (and not so great), so it's not current canon.


----------



## Raunalyn (Oct 5, 2016)

I didn't enjoy it as much as I enjoyed Daredevil and Jessica Jones. It  takes about 4 episodes before the show hits its stride, and it focuses  less on Luke and his abilities and instead on the urban drama happening  within Harlem.

 The show has a cool Grindhouse/Blaxploitation feel to it that is kind of charming for the first half of the season. However, it kind of gets in the way in the latter half. It did do a really good job of setting pieces in place for The Defenders. I liked Cottonmouth, but the second half of the season felt weak to me (I don't want to reveal why because spoiler). As others mentioned before, Harlem itself was a character, and I really liked its presence within the story, weaving and influencing the various point of views. Theo Rossi's "Shades" was absolutely delightful.

I think what I have really been enjoying about the Netflix/Marvel shows are the strong and interesting villains. David Tennant's Kilgrave was phenomenal, and Vincent D'onofrio's Wilson Fisk was nothing short of magnificent. Daredevil season 2 did not have a strong villain, I think, and Luke Cage suffered from a similar problem. Shades, I think, could make a very strong villain if Luke Cage goes to Season 2.

 Overall, it was decent. I'd give it a 6.5 out of 10.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 5, 2016)

Tennant was good, as he always is, but I didn't feel he was as deeply committed to this character as he seemed to be in "Broadchurch." On the other hand I felt that D'Onofrio completely disappeared into his role as Fisk. Cottonmouth fell somewhere in between for me.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 5, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> That production is too far back in time (and not so great), so it's not current canon.




The Incredible Hulk (2008, the Ed Norton film) is canon.   In The Avengers, we have this exchange:

*Tony Stark:* You should come by Stark Tower sometime. Top 10 floors all R&D, you'd love it... it's candyland.
*Bruce Banner:* Thanks, but the last time I was in New York I kind of broke... Harlem.

There are other references to TIH scattered around.  For example, in Iron Man 2, when Fury is having his discussion with Stark as to whether he'll be a member of the Avengers Initiative, or just a consultant, there are scenes of the College battle from TIH in the background on the SHIELD monitors.

That there's some continuity there is kind of important, as General Ross plays a notable role in Civil War, and what kind of man he is is established in TIH.  The argument is that The Avengers cannot be trusted to operate independently, so they give control to a man who is notably responsible for the creation of the Abomination?  That the political machine would turn control to such a man rather justifies Cap's resistance to the Accords, and sets the moral conflict for the movie!


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Oct 5, 2016)

Umbran said:


> The Incredible Hulk (2008, the Ed Norton film) is canon.   In The Avengers, we have this exchange:
> 
> *Tony Stark:* You should come by Stark Tower sometime. Top 10 floors all R&D, you'd love it... it's candyland.
> *Bruce Banner:* Thanks, but the last time I was in New York I kind of broke... Harlem.
> ...



well, Cap is right even without Ross's untrustworthiness, but yeah, also that.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 5, 2016)

Umbran said:


> The Incredible Hulk (2008, the Ed Norton film) is canon.   In The Avengers, we have this exchange:
> 
> *Tony Stark:* You should come by Stark Tower sometime. Top 10 floors all R&D, you'd love it... it's candyland.
> *Bruce Banner:* Thanks, but the last time I was in New York I kind of broke... Harlem.
> ...




True enough. I wish you hadn't reminded me, for now it will forever taint my memory of "The Avengers."


----------



## Umbran (Oct 5, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> True enough. I wish you hadn't reminded me, for now it will forever taint my memory of "The Avengers."




I don't see why.  We can accept the events happening, without carrying along the not-great storytelling.  And at least the mutated poodles aren't part of that bargain


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 5, 2016)

Umbran said:


> I don't see why.  We can accept the events happening, without carrying along the not-great storytelling.  And at least the mutated poodles aren't part of that bargain




< SHUDDER! >


----------



## Derren (Oct 5, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> The timelines not clear so I'm going with the idea that Lukes story happens just before or in parallel to 'Civil War' which means 1) the Sokovia Accord isn't in effect 2) SHIELD is still recovering and 3) all of their resources are being dedicated to the Avengers break up.
> 
> whats more pertinent is that The Incident still looms large in public consciousness yet nobody in Harlem seems to remember Hulk and Abomination's "Harlem Terror"




Marvel movies have so far always been chronological. And according to a wiki Cage plays parallel to Shield season 4 and after Civil War.


----------



## tyrlaan (Oct 5, 2016)

I really enjoyed the show. Like, _really _enjoyed it.

To clarify, I've liked all the Marvel Netflix series to date, probably ranking DD season 2 the lowest (which I won't go into since it's arguably off topic). Ultimately I can't decide if JJ or Cage was the better show, but I think I still put DD season 1 on top. 

One of the things I really liked is that there are a lot of shifts in the story that I didn't expect. Not necessarily surprises per se, but just unexpected changes from a meta perspective; things most shows wouldn't consider doing (if that made sense). 

Also, the show felt like a complete synthesis of all of its components in a way I don't think the other shows did. For example, the music didn't just fit the scenes but rather molded, framed, or was fused with the scene. The show itself seemed to ease into itself in a way reminiscent of the vibes the music style it leaned on exudes. I feel like the show could easily have been seen as slow, but instead it just felt comfortable in taking its time and being interesting along the way.

All the characters were strong, as seems to be par for the course in Marvel shows now. Some of the incidental characters were poorly acted, but overall stellar performances. I really liked that, despite being presented with gangsters again, it wasn't just a Kingpin rehash. Cottonmouth and others were their own people with their own motives and stories, etc. 

I won't say anything else since I want to honor the 'no spoilers' tag on the subject line! (though we may have strayed slightly from that in this thread already)


----------



## Umbran (Oct 5, 2016)

I think much of the idea of all the Netflix shows is that they are very "street level", and assume that issues of the world at large are rather lost in the local concerns.  "Who cares about superhero registration in Washington?  I'm not a superhero, or in Washington, I have this crime lord trying to lean on my business that is just scraping by as it is!"


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 6, 2016)

I think I'm going to remove that no spoilers tag when I get to a real computer. It was there for the non-Bingers, but it seems we have avhieved critical mass of people who have watched it...


----------



## Umbran (Oct 6, 2016)

Fair enough.  I'll be back after I've watched it...


----------



## Derren (Oct 6, 2016)

Umbran said:


> I think much of the idea of all the Netflix shows is that they are very "street level", and assume that issues of the world at large are rather lost in the local concerns.  "Who cares about superhero registration in Washington?  I'm not a superhero, or in Washington, I have this crime lord trying to lean on my business that is just scraping by as it is!"




Its certainly their intended to have street level "Defenders", but I would like if the existence of them to fit into the overall universe. They might not care about the accords and Washington, but Washington cares about them with Shield hunting enhanced people and even Tony Stark enforcing the Accords. And Luke is far from subtle so they should at least give us a plausible reason why Shield hasn't knocked yet (hopefully in Season 2).


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 6, 2016)

Derren said:


> Marvel movies have so far always been chronological. And according to a wiki Cage plays parallel to Shield season 4 and after Civil War.




Netflix Time runs according to when the show is filmed not when it is released.

We also know that Claire Temple turns up in the second half of Luke Cage straight from the fall out of DD2, so I'm sticking with the idea that the start of Luke Cage overlaps with the end of DD and that the Airport scene of Civil War happens after Luke Cage.

Of course Iron Fist will need to at least reference the Accords and maybe SHIELD will be what motivates Matt Murdoch to come to the aid the other heroes that form the Defenders


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 7, 2016)

Well finished up the series.  It was a mixed bag.  Liked the characters for the most part but the plot was mediocre at best, and the last three episodes were by far the worst of the lot.  Though even before that I was losing interest in the nearly what 3 episodes he's stumbling around shot?  I did like the 70's vibe, though too bad the main villain wasn't Mr. White or something like that.  Maybe Cage could have a team-up with Black Dynamite. 

The actor playing LC was great though, and there is a lot of potential there.  So far DD still buries every other superhero show I've seen.  Though JJ and LC are heads and shoulders above the DC stuff on the CW for the most part.


----------



## Deuce Traveler (Oct 8, 2016)

I loved the first six episodes, and Cottonmouth was my favorite antagonist.  The rest of the season was just alright.  Diamondback was absolutely horrible and ineffective, and seemed opposite of a criminal mastermind and leader, sort of like the 1980s GI Joe villain Cobra Commander.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 8, 2016)

Deuce Traveler said:


> I loved the first six episodes, and Cottonmouth was my favorite antagonist.  The rest of the season was just alright.  Diamondback was absolutely horrible and ineffective, and seemed opposite of a criminal mastermind and leader, sort of like the 1980s GI Joe villain Cobra Commander.




Yeah, not big on the Diamondback thing either. Cottonmouth and Shades played much better.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 8, 2016)

I liked Cottonmouth much better then Diamondback, too. But I am not sure there is much they could go with there anymore. The moment the two want to confront each other, the story is over. 

Diamondback really seemed not like the mastermind. I liked Shades calling Diamondback out on this. 


Though it also feels to me that there was one core aspect to the show - plans are useless. 
[sblock]
3 criminals plan a neat little heist and end up killing a lot more than most of them intended, and eventually a lot more dead than the had hoped.
Cottonmouth sends someone to take out his insider - and ends up with "Switzerland" blown up and Pop dead, something he never wanted.
Cottonmouth dies at the hand of Maria. Neither she nor anyone else actually expected that to happen. 
Diamondback has to improvise the whole hostage situation (and sucks at it.)
Maria plans a political career to improve the situation in Harlem - and gets into deep trouble because Luke Cage beats up her headquarter with Cottonmouth's illgotten gains in it, and she ends up killing Cottonmouth and kinda has to take over his job...
Luke Cage just wants to live a peaceful live outside the spotlights and becomes a public hero.
[/sblock]
The show is kinda a sequence of seeing people's (life) plans derailed.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 9, 2016)

> The show is kinda a sequence of seeing people's (life) plans derailed.




sorta like real life 
I kinda liked that about the show, it had all these grand schemes undone because people are emotional and get stupid. I think it helped to differentiate Lukes villains from the meticulous ruthlessness of Wilson Fisk or the self-focused tantrum that was Purple Man 



Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I liked Cottonmouth much better then Diamondback, too. But I am not sure there is much they could go with there anymore. The moment the two want to confront each other, the story is over.




Cottonmouth worked well as the gang boss working alongside Mariah and he should have been left in that role. He didn't need to confront Luke directly, he could have remained wearing Harlems crown while Mariah worked as 'puppetmaster' spinning the media to turn community sentiment against 'vigilantes'.

I also would have loved them to explore Cottonmouths musical talent further too, it gave the character a bit of depth that would have moved him from predictable cut out to interesting antagonist.

Diamondback should never have been part of the gang Hierarchy he would be more effective if brought in as an independent 'Contractor' a known extreme Hitman/Terrorist sent in to take care of Cottonmouths problem. Even having the half-brother 'twist' would have been okay then, but trying to overload every cliche onto his green scaled shoulders was just too much.

How I would have Ended it - Diamondback defeated by Luke, Cottonmouth arrested (and sent to the same cellblock as Fisk) and Mariah still out and rebuilding her political ambitions


----------



## Janx (Oct 12, 2016)

Just finished the LC eps last night.

I liked it.I think that it's a good thing that a bunch of white people like a show about a bunch of black people.  Maybe we'll learn something.

Though I still don't know what's up about barber shops.  Is it a hair needs cutting often thing?  Or just a meeting place for the community because their hair needs cutting?  Didn't seem like a deal breaker if I knew the significance or not.

I think the show suffered from the same "too many episodes" problem the others did, where things felt stretched.

I liked Cottonmouth.  I would have liked a bit more on why everybody's named after a snake and how it makes sense that Diamondback who isn't part of the family has a name like that.  It's like a thematic hole.  Probably made worse by making DB related to LC.

I'm a little fuzzy on how Harlem's Paradise got fixed up so fast, given we go from DB vs. LC there, a day or two later maybe and the big rematch at Pop's and as LC is being driven out by the Feds, the same night as the fight and BM getting released, people are streaming into HP.

I'm also confused on evidence rules on how if you got a tape of a witness outing the bad guy, and the witness is murdered, how is that NOT prosecutable?  What jury doesn't hear the tape and think, "oh, the person who said that was murdered, how convenient, I vote guilty."

Otherwise, what use is recording evidence if you actually still need the witness to testify.  You're basically admitting the recording was useless, and only a live witness matters.  That feeds right into the bad guys hands, given they are the only people willing to kill others to further their ends.


----------



## Deuce Traveler (Oct 14, 2016)

In some cities, Barber shops are where some older men like to get together to talk, while beauty salons fit the same needs for older women.  Think of the popularity of old Paris salons in the late 18th century, carried on to modern times in a small way.

The second half of the show were full of plot holes, same as in Daredevil season 2.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 14, 2016)

Deuce Traveler said:


> In some cities, Barber shops are where some older men like to get together to talk, while beauty salons fit the same needs for older women.  Think of the popularity of old Paris salons in the late 18th century, carried on to modern times in a small way.
> 
> The second half of the show were full of plot holes, same as in Daredevil season 2.




I've been doing some really fascinating reading about the social role of the Barber Shop in Black American communities. As I understand it, the history in a nutshell is that following the abolition of slavery Barber was the only skilled trade where Black men were able to set up their own businesses and generally do well. Many would cut the hair of white clients during opening hours and then black clients after hours. Many of these Barbers had the ear of white politicians and became very wealthy in their own right which allowed them to reinvest in their communities. Apparently Insurance companies like Atlanta Life were set up by rich Black Barbers. 
From around 1890 White Barbers started agitating for greater controls and registration with Barber Colleges which excluded Black Barbers and so Black Barbers were 'forced out' and responded by relocating to Black communities like Harlem where they became major centers of community life.

I love those little details ))


----------



## MistyF (Nov 26, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> I've been doing some really fascinating reading about the social role of the Barber Shop in Black American communities. As I understand it, the history in a nutshell is that following the abolition of slavery Barber was the only skilled trade where Black men were able to set up their own businesses and generally do well. Many would cut the hair of white clients during opening hours and then black clients after hours. Many of these Barbers had the ear of white politicians and became very wealthy in their own right which allowed them to reinvest in their communities. Apparently Insurance companies like Atlanta Life were set up by rich Black Barbers.
> From around 1890 White Barbers started agitating for greater controls and registration with Barber Colleges which excluded Black Barbers and so Black Barbers were 'forced out' and responded by relocating to Black communities like Harlem where they became major centers of community life.
> 
> I love those little details ))




Oh, I didn't know it, thanks for sharing this!


----------

