# Diminishing Returns on Hero Powers?



## Elric (Nov 6, 2002)

I don't actually own 4CtF.  However, I looked at some characters who were made using 4CtF and something occured to me.  Do hero powers scale with Hero Points?  For example, it looks like you can spend an even number of hero points to get that bonus to a mental ability score.  You get 8 hero points a level.  Thus, a level 13 PC who has 2 levels of Hero could get +16 Wis.  There also seem to be some "reductions" system that could work out badly.  Superman is very vulnerable to Kryptonite and not vulnerable to anything else, how much fun will it be to adventure with him after a while (in a relatively normal D&D party/setting)?

By comparison, if you could get +16 Wis with a non-epic item, it would cost 16^2 * 1000= 256,000 gp.  The hero ability even seems to stack with enhancement bonuses.  Thus, the Hero can get a relatively cheap item (16k) for a +20 Wisdom score.  This would require a 400k item for a normal character to duplicate.  Physical attributes would be more expensive to increase with HrPs.  

Is this how the rules work?  Feel free to tell me if I'm completely wrong     Thanks!


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## RangerWickett (Nov 7, 2002)

Things that look frightening in theory often aren't quite as bad in actual use.  Imagine you want to be a 13th level character with a maxed out Wisdom, so you can exploit it.  How might the Hero class unbalance you?

First of all, at each level of Hero, you get 8 Hero Points, and a +16 Wisdom costs 16 HrPs (actually, we're thinking of changing it slightly; see below).  Thus, you need at least 2 levels of Hero to get that +16, and because of the built-in restrictions, you need to be at least 13th level to do so.

So you make a Cleric 11/Hero 2.  Start with a 15 Wisdom, up it to 18 by advancing in levels.  Then, with Hero you bump it up to a 34.  Right now, you've got a +12 bonus to Wisdom-based things.  

Compare this to a Cleric 13, who would only have an 18 Wisdom.  We're going to ignore magic armor right now, since we'll assume you both got good gear.

Because of your Wisdom, you get more bonus cleric spell slots (actually, I think, you get two more bonus 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, 4th-level, 5th-level, and 6th-level spells).  That's a total of 42 levels worth of spell slots  

However, because the cleric is a higher level spellcaster, he gets more spell slots naturally, 31 levels worth of spell slots.  However, he gets access to 7th-level spells that you don't have, which are arguably much more useful that multiple spells of lower levels.

His Fort and Ref are +1 better than yours, but your Will is +11 better than his.  Also, you have a much higher bonus to Wisdom-based skills and the save DCs for your spells are significantly higher.  

His base attack bonus is equal to yours, but he has 4 more skill points than you (assuming a 10 Int; if you have a 14 Int, he'd be ahead by 8).  On average, he'll have 6 more hit points than you.


*******
So, that's the breakdown of your power differences.  I'd be inclined to say it's balanced, with perhaps a slight favor toward the Hero because of the higher spell DCs.  At that high level, having an extra half dozen spells from 1st to 3rd level won't have a major impact, especially since the pure-cleric will be tossing around Destructions, Resurrections, and Holy Words.  However, since the Hero's save DCs and skill bonuses are much higher, we're thinking of splitting the Heightened Wisdom power into two separate powers.

One, Heightened Wisdom, would cost 3 HrPs for every +2 bonus in Wisdom.  The other, Super Wise would cost 2 HrPs, and would be mostly identical, except that it would grant no bonus spells.  This would parallel Heightened Strength and Super Strength (super strength is slightly cheaper, but doesn't provide an attack bonus increase).

See, it's not as great a problem as it might first appear.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 7, 2002)

Oh, and also, there is a limit to how much you can spend on a single power.  Like skill points, you can spend up to your level + 3 HrPs on a single power.  So a 1st-level character can have no more than 4 HrPs in a single power, and a 13th-level character can spend a maximum of 16 HrPs.  This prevents crazy things like 5th level characters who have no skills and crappy abilities, but a 40 HrP energy blast attack.

As for Superman, the restrictions are a fairly minor aspect of the rules, because we wanted to downplay the whole 'fatal weakness' aspect of many old-school superheroes.  Even with reduced costs for his powers because they can be cancelled around Kryptonite, Superman (as he is portrayed in comics) is still at least 30th or 40th level.  You could make a look-alike Superman-style character at 10th level, with Flight, a Strength of 30, and some invulnerability and such, and he'd be quite a hero, balancing nicely against other 10th-level characters.


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## Alzrius (Nov 7, 2002)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> * However, since the Hero's save DCs and skill bonuses are much higher, we're thinking of splitting the Heightened Wisdom power into two separate powers.
> 
> One, Heightened Wisdom, would cost 3 HrPs for every +2 bonus in Wisdom.  The other, Super Wise would cost 2 HrPs, and would be mostly identical, except that it would grant no bonus spells.  This would parallel Heightened Strength and Super Strength (super strength is slightly cheaper, but doesn't provide an attack bonus increase).*




Are you going to be doing that for the remaining abilities as well, namely, Intelligence, Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma?

Also, Im not sure that the idea of splitting the Wisdom power into two different powers is a good idea like that. It makes sense for Strength, since everyone has something to gain by upping that (namely a better BAB bonus and damage bonus), but increasing Wisdom for spells is only useful to divine spellcasters. So, making two powers, with the intent of making someone wanting bonus spells pay a higher cost than anyone else who just wants to increase wisdom for whatever reason (like a monk who wants to up his wisdom bonus to AC), seems to punish those who can get bonus divine spells. Essentially, any non-divine spellcaster can get the full benefits of upping his Wisdom score with just Super Wise, while a divine spellcaster has to pay a higher cost to get Heightened Wisdom to receive the full benefits of increasing his Wisdom. It seems slightly unfair.

Just my take on it.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 7, 2002)

There are already twin versions for the physical stats.  The 'super' versions give all the benefits of actually increasing the stat, except for the detail noted.

* Heightened Strength / Super Strength (no attack bonus modifier)
* Heightened Dexterity / Super Agility (no ranged attack bonus modifier)
* Heightened Strength / Super Health (no bonus hit points)

The Heightened versions grant more benefits than the super version, but if you don't need or don't want that single aspect that the super version doesn't have.  If you're an incredibly fast character, but you don't envision yourself as the ultimate sniper, you can just take Super Agility, instead of Heightened Dexterity.

Likewise, if we create alternate versions for Int, Wis, and Cha, the super version will be all that the 'common' character would want.  But spellcasters who use that ability as their prime stat would want the Heightened version, which would cost more. 

It's not unfair to make a sorcerer pay more if he's getting a greater benefit.  A rogue who takes Super Charismatic may be very charming, but he doesn't get bonus spells.  A sorcerer who takes Heightened Charisma gets a much greater benefit than a rogue who takes Super Charisma, and thus Heightened Charisma should cost more.  No one who's not a bard or sorcerer would want to take Heightened Charisma, when Super Charisma is cheaper and does just as much for them.

And if a sorcerer doesn't _want_ more bonus spells, he can just take normal Super Charisma, paying the cheaper cost.


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## Alzrius (Nov 7, 2002)

Hmm, good points...it just seemed a bit off to me since no one but the relevent spellcasters would want the Heightened version of the mental stats, but pretty much any character would want the Heightened physical stats. What you said makes sense though. Do you guys know if you're going to go through with it for the BBoSP?

One other thing I wanted to ask about was will we see anything along the lines of an optional rule about limiting expenditure of Hero Points on a single power to 3 + _Hero_ level, instead of your total character level? That would prevent, as was mentioned previously, a Cleric 11/Hero 2 from just taking 16 HrPs and spending them all on Wisdom, similar to how a multiclass spellcaster doesn't get to use his total character level as his caster level when throwing a spell. I know there would be some drawbacks to this rule (especially compared to how it is now), but it would help for a DM who wanted to keep super powers to a set level within his game, especially considering that that wouldn't affect the costs for the templates.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 7, 2002)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> *One other thing I wanted to ask about was will we see anything along the lines of an optional rule about limiting expenditure of Hero Points on a single power to 3 + Hero level, instead of your total character level? That would prevent, as was mentioned previously, a Cleric 11/Hero 2 from just taking 16 HrPs and spending them all on Wisdom, similar to how a multiclass spellcaster doesn't get to use his total character level as his caster level when throwing a spell. I know there would be some drawbacks to this rule (especially compared to how it is now), but it would help for a DM who wanted to keep super powers to a set level within his game, especially considering that that wouldn't affect the costs for the templates. *




That _could_ work, but it tends to make taking Hero levels later on pointless.

If a Wizard 10/Hero 1 wanted an energy blast normally, he could get something that does a good 3d6, with a fairly short, but modest range.  This isn't too overpowering since he's 11th level, so it will probably be a fallback option after he's finished lobbing his 10d6 fireballs.

In the modified version you propose, he could only get 1d6 damage, in short range, for which he'd probably be better off just carrying a crossbow.

At higher levels, even an 8-pt. power isn't that great of a thing.  Normally a Fighter 18/Hero 2 could get a +10 bonus to Strength (or any myriad of other nifty powers), but if you restrict it by Hero levels, and not character levels, then he could only get +2.  It would barely be worth his effort.

On a similar note, imagine that if you multiclassed you could only spend skill points on class skills to a max rank based on your class level, not your character level.  A high level fighter who takes a level or two of rogue would never be able to spot very well, even though he has enough skill points to afford it.

I do think the current system works fine, aside from a few minor issues with costs here and there.


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## Elric (Nov 9, 2002)

Sorry, I forgot to check this forum because I don't normally post here.  I was thinking of the possibility of getting those super-stats for characters who can use them in combat.  Spellcasters do have to give up quite a bit for their hero level.  However, a character class that lets you use a mental stat in combat (duelist, sacred fist, mystic wanderer, paladin) makes these ability score increases much more powerful.

Just wondering, is there a Hero power that grants base attack bonus?  If so, how many Hero Points does it cost and are there any limits.  Feats are 2 HrP apiece, right?  Assuming that you are limited to (Level +3)/2 in feats, a high level barbarian could get 8 feats in two hero levels and have more feats than an equal level fighter.


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## Alzrius (Nov 11, 2002)

You know, you wouldn't need to ask many of these questions if you would just buy the product.

As near as I can tell, spellcasters really don't give up any more to take a Hero level than they would to take a level in any non-spellcasting class, since the Hero class is balanced.

I agree with you about how some characters could get more use out of those enhanced stats than others, bonus spells notwithstanding, such as my example of a monk who ups his Wisdom to get mad AC bonuses. Im sure there are other examples too, but for the most part, it isnt that bad, since, as Ryan said, it works pretty well with the whole level-requirement thing to spend that many points.

iirc, there is no super power that ups base attack bonus or otherwise grants a bonus to it. Your best bet is to take Heightened Strength, which does give all the benefits of having an increased strength, namely increased attack and damage bonuses. 

Feats are indeed 2 HrP a piece. In the example you give, the Barbarian could gain eight feats in two Hero levels, but again, you aren't factoring in what he'd be giving up. He'd get abysmal saving throw bonuses, a pathetic increase in hit die (a mere d4 at each level), no skill points at all, and worst of all, none of the Barbarian special abilities he's been used to for so long...basically, for the time that he adventures to gain the experience points to go up those two levels, he's working under a disadvantage, one that helps to offset the bonus of getting that many feats. By the time he gets those two Hero levels, an equal level Fighter will have some some pretty nice bonuses and such that the Barbarian gave up to get those feats.


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## novyet (Nov 11, 2002)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> *iirc, there is no super power that ups base attack bonus or otherwise grants a bonus to it. Your best bet is to take Heightened Strength, which does give all the benefits of having an increased strength, namely increased attack and damage bonuses.  *



Or you can take Heightened Accuracy, for a low low price.


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## Elric (Nov 13, 2002)

Ok, let's consider a Fighter at level 12.  He takes either: 2 levels of Fighter or 2 of Hero.

If he takes the levels of Hero, he uses his points to get the following abilities:
3: +2 Con (+14 HP and +1 Fort)
6: 3 feats
6: +4 Str (magical)
1: Increase Reach (Magical)
and has +1 BaB and 5 HP from levels

If he takes the levels of Fighter, he gets
1 feat
11 HP from levels
+2 BaB
4+ 2* Int skill points
+1 Fort save

In return for +1 BaB and skill points, the Hero gets 8 HP, +4 Str (so, +2 to attack and +3 to damage with a two handed weapon), Increased Reach (magical, but this is still an incredible ability) and 2 feats.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 14, 2002)

Elric said:
			
		

> *Ok, let's consider a Fighter at level 12.  He takes either: 2 levels of Fighter or 2 of Hero.
> 
> In return for +1 BaB and skill points, the Hero gets 8 HP, +4 Str (so, +2 to attack and +3 to damage with a two handed weapon), Increased Reach (magical, but this is still an incredible ability) and 2 feats. *




A good reason why we'll be revising stuff.  The mechanical abilities are a little hard to balance in all situations (especially at higher levels), but you're right, that is off.


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## Elric (Nov 14, 2002)

I agree- some abilities are very hard to balance.  Really useful abilities have the "Boots of S&S" problem.  That problem is that when your character has 5000 gold, Boots of S&S at 2.5k look expensive so only some people will have them.  When you have 35000 gold, those boots look really cheap and everyone will have them.  For example, increased reach is so useful that almost every melee character will have it after taking one level of hero, since it is only 1/4th of your HrP from that level.

Also, the Hero's poor hit dice gets less important when you are high level and can increase your Con score for 3 HrP to get a dozen hit points.


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## reapersaurus (Nov 17, 2002)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *A good reason why we'll be revising stuff.  The mechanical abilities are a little hard to balance in all situations (especially at higher levels), but you're right, that is off. *



PLEASE.

Do NOT revise thigs because they are not "balanced" with the 3E core rules.

That is defeating the purpose, in my eyes, of an ALTERNATE book (and system).

DM's can choose to keep the (boring) old classes from the core books and keep their boring, slow advancement rates.

Or, they can CHOOSE to use your great system, which is balanced *within itself*.
I doubt if people are contemplating using FCtF if they are worried about comparing 2 levels of fighter with 2 levels of Hero.

Remember, RW, you guys assumed people would be sprinkling Hero classes in with normal classes. Don't turn back now, because the Hero classes give more of a benefit than the normal levels.
I THOUGHT that was the point of the system...  super-powers, right? 

If you want to limit the Hero class's impact, than don't give any hit points with Hero levels, or don't add any CON bonus hit points to Hero levels.


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## Morrus (Nov 17, 2002)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *PLEASE.
> 
> Do NOT revise thigs because they are not "balanced" with the 3E core rules.
> 
> ...




I think you may have misunderstood our intentions with the book.  Unlike all the other D20 superhero games, 4C2F is the one which is designed _specifically_ to be used with and balanced with other D20 games.  The Hero class is carefully designed to be balanced with the core classes so as to make it possible to mix and match; it is certainly not intended to be better than any other class.


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## reapersaurus (Nov 18, 2002)

I really don't know how better to get this across, Morrus, but to say that IF that was the base intention, you failed.  

I'm sure any non-spellcasting character would be made more powerful by 2 levels of Hero than 2 levels of any other class.
Just a couple examples would prove that pretty quick.

Again, _I_ don't see that as a problem - in fact, I think that's the allure (and draw) of the system.

After dealing with the system and examples as much as you guys have, are you really of the collective opinion that a Ftr6/Hero2 is the same power-level as a Ftr8?

This post is meant in the constructive-criticism vein...


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## RangerWickett (Nov 18, 2002)

Nope, it ain't quite balanced yet, especially if you try to take full advantage of the system.  Gaining flight and some damage reduction for your Fighter 6/Hero 2 is what we had more in mind, but if you decide to just take Heightened Strength, Heightened Accuracy, Heightened Constitutition, and Increased Reach, yes, it is almost certainly overpowered.  Which is what we're trying to fix.  We don't want to make superpowers necessary to have a fighting chance.

Also, if you take some of the powers (intended more for a modern-style supers game with guns and helicopters) and put them in a fantasy game with more melee combat, the melee powers are underpriced.  Which is why we're going to be presenting two different sets of costs when powers would be of different values in the two different types of games.

But now, back to final proofreading on The Elements of Magic.


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## MDSnowman (Dec 6, 2002)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *
> Also, if you take some of the powers (intended more for a modern-style supers game with guns and helicopters) and put them in a fantasy game with more melee combat, the melee powers are underpriced.  Which is why we're going to be presenting two different sets of costs when powers would be of different values in the two different types of games.
> 
> *




I can especially see this in a D20 Modern game. As you can use the Hero Class to, in effect, create personalized advanced classes from the ground up. No one wants to be a Strong Hero 10/ Tough Hero 10.


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## Alzrius (Dec 7, 2002)

I wanted to ask: I'm pretty sure this has been asked before, but for the life ofme I can't find where, so I'm asking again: in FCTF, neither the Hero class nor the Specialist gain iterative attacks at higher levels (i.e. BAB +6 instead of +6/+1). Is this intentional, or an oversight?


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## RangerWickett (Dec 7, 2002)

Oh, that was, I suppose, an oversight.  You _always_ gain iterative attacks when your attack bonus goes up, so we didn't spell it out.  It's the same way how on prestige classes you'll never see the iterative attacks spelled out, since we figure it's obvious that for every 5 points of BAB above +1 you get an extra attack.


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