# Brutal Fencer (A Fighter Build)



## Cadfan (Oct 14, 2008)

Now in PDF form!  Its an expanded version of the material from my Versatile Fighter Build thread.


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## cmbarona (Oct 14, 2008)

I like it! It encourages a new kind of Fighter stickiness through grabbing; essentially, the Defender role is focued on single enemies at a time.

Did you mean to leave out the Shield Bonus to AC/Reflex? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but there might be other sources of Shield Bonuses that don't require holding either a shield or a weapon in the off-hand.


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## Cadfan (Oct 14, 2008)

What do you mean?

I just gave the ac and damage adjustment in order to balance out the fact that this build basically requires you to leave one of your hands empty- normally that's a complete waste, so something had to be done to rebalance it.


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## cmbarona (Oct 16, 2008)

Sorry, that was worded poorly. I mean, did you intend the bonus to AC & Reflex while holding a versatile weapon to be _untyped_? For example, even the two-weapon defense feat is a shield bonus. I don't see immediately where this could be a problem, but if, for example, a set of bracers would give a shield bonus (not looking at books now, not sure if that even exists), then the two could stack.


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## Cadfan (Oct 16, 2008)

cmbarona said:


> Sorry, that was worded poorly. I mean, did you intend the bonus to AC & Reflex while holding a versatile weapon to be _untyped_? For example, even the two-weapon defense feat is a shield bonus. I don't see immediately where this could be a problem, but if, for example, a set of bracers would give a shield bonus (not looking at books now, not sure if that even exists), then the two could stack.



Oh, I see.  Yeah, if the Tempest types their defense bonuses, I'll type these as well.  I'll update the pdf tomorrow.

I can't think of anything that would create a problem, but it doesn't hurt to be certain.


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## cmbarona (Oct 21, 2008)

Another question that didn't at first occur to me:

Did you mean to leave Small characters out of this build? I doubt this was the intent, and I'm sure we can all appreciate the image of a battle-crazed halfling clinging on for dear life while gutting opponents. I get the feeling you can modify the versatile keyword requirements to better reflect Small characters opting for this build. Of course, this would also impact the text for many powers, if by "Large" you meant "one size category larger than you".

Of course, if you didn't want halflings taking this, you should probably make a size requirement for taking Brutal Fencer.

Alternatively, this could be a nice start for a slightly different form of Brutal Fencer, perhaps in a Paragon Path: rather than throwing opponents around, you actually climb onto them to deliver fatal blows.


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## Cadfan (Oct 21, 2008)

Hmm.  I had thought about halflings.

I don't know what to do for them, since the whole idea hinges on the use of versatile weapons as both two handed and one handed weapons.

If I were you, and I wanted to use a halfling and these rules, I'd toss together an ad-hoc versatile weapon with the Small descriptor.


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## cmbarona (Oct 21, 2008)

As a quick caveat, I don't know why they didn't provide better small-character rules. I understand they wanted them to be able to use one-handed weapons without the weapon shrinkage gimp of 3.5, but from there things really get complicated.


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## Cadfan (Oct 21, 2008)

I don't know.  I think the rules get the job done.

The real problem is that its a real bear to come up with a fair way to make rules for small sized fighters and other strength based melee combatants.  In a way, they almost need their own powers or class.


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## sozomai (Oct 21, 2008)

The idea rocks, but _Brutal_ Fencer? I mucked around with fencing for a few years and it seems more of an elegant, precise way to slaughter somebody than say bashing them to death with a fire extinguisher, which is the kind of thing I reserve 'brutal' for. 

Yeah not very constructive, I know. I like it though, and I might use this class in my groups. (maybe renamed as the _Lethal Fencer_ or some such : D)


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## Cadfan (Oct 21, 2008)

I figured "brutal" fit since you're mostly using your off hand to grab the other guy by the neck while you gut him.    Its really not a true fencing style, where your off hand is held back for safety.  I just couldn't come up with a better name.  Got any ideas?


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## cmbarona (Oct 22, 2008)

Yeah, I think the awkward word here is "fencer", not "brutal". Perhaps "Brutal Grappler" or something with "Vice Grip", "Chokehold", or "Eviscerator"?


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## sozomai (Oct 22, 2008)

Grabby Stabby.


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## sozomai (Oct 22, 2008)

I kind of like "Chokehold Swordmaster." 

And how about giving proficiency with Rapiers as a class feature?
_Edit: Whoops, forgot Rapiers aren't a versatile weapon_

Also it would be cool to see some actual techniques of swordsmanship involved that fit the grab and stab style.

e.g. Swordmasters of old would sometimes use their cloaks with their off hand, whipping it at an opponent to distract them, throwing it over his blade to trap it, or casting it over his head if the opportunity presented itself.


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## ukingsken (Nov 16, 2008)

Just a thought on the wording of some of the powers. Several say a foe of Large size or smaller, wouldn't it be better to say a foe one size larger then you? That way you cover small size characters and size altering mechanics.


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## scarik (Nov 17, 2008)

The best way to handle Small and weapons is to throw the rules away since being Small gives exactly zero advantages over Medium. If Halfling rogues don't have to worry about weapon choices there's no reason to make Rangers and Fighters et al worry. Also its pretty silly that Halfling Wizards can't use Staves as weapons.

I did that for the Halfling Paladin in my game so he could use a longsword like a real Paladin and not have to use a scimitar.

And Brutal Fencer is a great name. If you always equate Fencing to the modern sport variety it might seem odd, but if you know that the word 'Fence' is simply a contraction of 'Defence' then it is perfectly fitting.


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## Cadfan (Nov 17, 2008)

ukingsken said:


> Just a thought on the wording of some of the powers. Several say a foe of Large size or smaller, wouldn't it be better to say a foe one size larger then you? That way you cover small size characters and size altering mechanics.



I'll probably make that change next time I update the document.


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## dammitbiscuit (Nov 21, 2008)

sozomai said:


> I kind of like "Chokehold Swordmaster."



I like it. A few sozo-inspired variations:

Inescapable Swordmaster
Chokehold Duelist
Lockdown Blademaster


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## Eldorian (Feb 18, 2009)

Grabbing someone in pro fighting is called "clinching".  Striking someone in the clinch is referred to as "dirty boxing" unless it's Muay Thai.

This guy isn't unarmed, however, some of these words could be used.


Clinch Fighter is the build, Clinch Technique is the name of the style?



Btw, this is very similar to an idea I had for an unarmed combatant called a Pankratiast.  Only his mechanic wasn't one of his at will's he chooses, but a class feature that is a minor action, grab the target, give opponent penalty to escape.


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## Garthanos (Feb 18, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> I figured "brutal" fit since you're mostly using your off hand to grab the other guy by the neck while you gut him.    Its really not a true fencing style, where your off hand is held back for safety.  I just couldn't come up with a better name.  Got any ideas?




I like the "brutal" in the name because I have a class idea I have been working on a which needs a dash of "Darth Vader" like, left hand use .. ... and yes I had been thinking of versatile weapons in this context.  I hadn't thought of using the grab as a form of defenders mark (I have simulationist issues trying to figure out marking at times,  I let myself figure it means individual who has the highest threat in martial powers its based on position and only one can be the highest threat... the most distraction from threat). 

Fencing Fighter should be another build.
Fencing has the offhand normally held back to enhance your balance as well as assuring a smaller target both scream AC perhaps with the latter limited to a single opponent to me A Fencer could be given just the armor class bonus when they have an empty off hand whether the weapon was versatile or not. (like swordmage but martial). Perhaps it is actually a bonus against being knocked prone and an armor class reflex bonus for self against a marked opponent. Maybe make this bonus better if wearing light armor so we encourage Pirates and Musketeer types who dont want to think of them selves as rogues?


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## Garthanos (Feb 18, 2009)

Eldorian said:


> Btw, this is very similar to an idea I had for an unarmed combatant called a Pankratiast.  Only his mechanic wasn't one of his at will's he chooses, but a class feature that is a minor action, grab the target, give opponent penalty to escape.




"Pankratiast"? is that a world specific development?


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## Eldorian (Feb 18, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> "Pankratiast"? is that a world specific development?




Um sure.  Earth specific.  No idea what they'd call it on Omicron Persei 8.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Pankration (Greek: Παγκράτιο(ν), Pagkratio, IPA: [paŋ.'kra.ti.o]) is a martial arts sport introduced to the Greek Olympic Games in 648 BC and founded as a blend of boxing and wrestling. The term comes from the Ancient Greek παγκράτιον, literally meaning "all powers" and that from πᾶν (pan) "all" + κράτος (kratos) "strength" or "power". It is also used to describe the sport's contemporary variations. Some consider it as the first all-encompassing fighting system in human history. It is also arguable that pankration competitions in antiquity were the closest an athletic event has come to outright, no-rules, empty hand combat. Modern mixed martial arts competitions have come to feature many of the same methods that were used in pankration competitions in the ancient Greek world.


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## Garthanos (Feb 18, 2009)

Well its "greek" to me ...hehehe I would have groked Pugilist.


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## Eldorian (Feb 19, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Well its "greek" to me ...hehehe I would have groked Pugilist.




Ah, but a pugilist isn't spending his time trying to choke dudes to death.

And, now you learned something.

The goal here was to make a non mystical martial artist, and I figured the best way to let that be known was to use a western name for it.


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## Rechan (Dec 8, 2009)

dammitbiscuit said:


> I like it. A few sozo-inspired variations:



Strangling Blademaster.


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## Rechan (Dec 8, 2009)

I'd definitely like to see a Greco-roman style wrestling fighter. But instead of just grapples and holds, I would enjoy seeing it taken in the Mythical direction. Ala Hercules. The "I can lift boulders and smash the heads of dragons". Beowulf ripped Grendil's arm off with his bare hands. That sort of "Strong man" archetype.


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