# Whedon: More Buffy in the future



## Krug (Sep 21, 2005)

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire2005/index.php?id=32494



> Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, told SCI FI Wire that he definitely plans to revisit the "Buffyverse" in a future, unspecified TV project. "I think it's realistic," Whedon said in an interview while promoting his upcoming SF movie, Serenity. "I like my chances. But it is absolutely still too amorphous for me to make any kind of announcement about it. I'm out there trying, and there's other people trying, to put it together. But until something falls in place, I really can't say."
> 
> Whedon is especially keen on doing a movie centering on the vampire character of Spike (James Marsters). "Let's say it's a good jumping-off point," he said. As for Marsters' reported comments that he is growing too old to play the eternally youthful former bloodsucker, Whedon said: "Well, we're working. We're trying. I know. ... James is in very good shape. Keep working out, James."


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## Kirin'Tor (Sep 21, 2005)

Well, it's nothing official...but Woo Hoo! Buffyverse may live on!


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 21, 2005)

Which can be chalked up to anything dealing with Angel. Last I heard Sarah said she did not want to play Buffy again.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 21, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Which can be chalked up to anything dealing with Angel. Last I heard Sarah said she did not want to play Buffy again.




No big loss. I thought she did an excellent job as Buffy throughout the series, but she was definitely getting tired of it by the end. There are plenty of characters--many of whom are more interesting--Joss could explore.

Let Sarah focus on her _fabulous_ movie career.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 21, 2005)

In fact, while I'm a huge Spike fan and would love to see more of him, I wouldn't mind if Joss took some time to explore some of the secondary characters. I think Faith has potential, now that she's trying to reform. (Never liked her as a villain, but she's a cool ex-villain.) And frankly, I really though the character of Robin Wood had some real story potential as well. A series involving the two of them wouldn't go amiss in this household. 

Just please, Joss... I beg of you, man. _No more Andrew!!_


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 21, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Let Sarah focus on her _fabulous_ movie career.



I happen to enjoy her movies.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 21, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I happen to enjoy her movies.



 Yeah.  It was totally worth bailing on Buffy to do those Scooby Doo movies.  How many Oscars did those win?  I lost count.


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## CrusaderX (Sep 21, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Yeah.  It was totally worth bailing on Buffy to do those Scooby Doo movies.  How many Oscars did those win?  I lost count.




How many Emmys did Buffy win?


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 21, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> How many Emmys did Buffy win?



 Not nearly enough .  I consider the Emmys to be one notch above the Grammys in terms of credibility, which is the low end of the scale for me.  OTOH, I find the Oscars pretty accurate in terms of awarding quality.  They don't always get it right, but at least the Oscars give an award to someone other than Doris Roberts every once in a while.

But that's a rant for another day.


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## Crothian (Sep 21, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Yeah.  It was totally worth bailing on Buffy to do those Scooby Doo movies.  How many Oscars did those win?  I lost count.




I paid she got a nice paycheck.  And its not like Buffy ended becasue she was leaving.


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## Viking Bastard (Sep 21, 2005)

I thought that was exactly why Buffy ended when it did. Because Geller had declared
that she wasn't going to renew her contract.

Not that I really cry the end of Buffy. I loved the show, but it was burning up fast.


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## DonTadow (Sep 21, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> In fact, while I'm a huge Spike fan and would love to see more of him, I wouldn't mind if Joss took some time to explore some of the secondary characters. I think Faith has potential, now that she's trying to reform. (Never liked her as a villain, but she's a cool ex-villain.) And frankly, I really though the character of Robin Wood had some real story potential as well. A series involving the two of them wouldn't go amiss in this household.
> 
> Just please, Joss... I beg of you, man. _No more Andrew!!_



I think any of the secondary characters would be better, I was never a big sarah fan, but would love to see a faith series. 

I also think the show left off with an exciting premise.  An apocolpyse in Los Angeles but an army of slayers that are are good but in that creepy, this is the law, kind of way.


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## Umbran (Sep 21, 2005)

Or, heaven forfend, he might do something in the Buffyverse without re-using characters.  Because we all know that Joss lacks for imagination, and would need those old characters as a crutch for his work...


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## Particle_Man (Sep 21, 2005)

Maybe a 5 year special on "Files and Records Girl".  "Hi, I'm Files and Records!  That's my job!"


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 21, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Or, heaven forfend, he might do something in the Buffyverse without re-using characters.  Because we all know that Joss lacks for imagination, and would need those old characters as a crutch for his work...




Oh, I've no doubt at all that he could come up with something set in the Buffyverse involving none of the familiar characters, and it would be cool.

But dang it, I _want_ to see more on these characters.


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## Knightfall (Sep 21, 2005)

How about a Buffyverse TV Series set in the near future, perhaps 2050 or 2075. Spike would be the main character and build a new cast around Marsters.

KF72


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## Nightfall (Sep 21, 2005)

My idea:

Year 3050.

The Earth has returned to the stomping grounds of demons and other creepy things. (Think Land of the Dead only with demons instead of zombies) Vampires are on a tear, carving out a large nitche in the Southwest and Western end of Cali. Introduce a new slayer (the old ones didn't make it) and new cast. Featuring a mx of Fireflyesque characters with some other ideas mixed in. 

That's how I'd redo the Buffyverse.


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## Dog Moon (Sep 21, 2005)

Personally, I only liked Spike for a very short time and that was when he was evil.  Of course I think I only tolerated him because of his two companions which I liked.  If his next show is based around him, I will not be watching it.

I think any further shows should not have any of the other major people except as occasional guest appearances.  Some of them could be cool, but I think most of them have already had enough appearance time.

What would be a good city to focus in on?  Los Angeles has already been done.  He'll probably stay away from anywhere it can snow because who wants to see people fighting Vampires when they're wearing three layers of clothing and a heavy duty winter coat?


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## Nightfall (Sep 21, 2005)

Well there's always Cleveland.  I mean hello, hellmouth!


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## Steverooo (Sep 21, 2005)

*The Future Is Now!*

I wouldn't go into the future, at all...  I would set it in the year that the show begins, and keep things pretty up-to-date, from there.  I'd make mention to "the destruction of LA & New Orleans", in the opening episode, and then slowly work in both the end of Angel (and any of the cast who wanted to reprise their roles), as well as checking in with the survivors from Buffy (who wanted to reprise theirs), and see what they're all doing...

Along the way, I'd work in some new characters, new slayers (since Buffy opened it up to any girl who wanted it), and start up some new mysteries, like what _really_ happened to New Orleans, why FEMA wouldn't go in, what _really_ happened to LA (and the Angel cast), etc.  During all of this, there'd be plenty of time for occasional visits with Dawn, Xander, Willow, Faith, Spike, and anyone else from either series who wanted to guest for an episode...

In the meantime, a new team with new (and old reprisers) gets set up.  THEN, I'd like to see an exploration of the Vampire legend, with a more scientific method, finding out what really affects them, and why.  Then, with that knowledge, a new series of high-tech, weapons-toting vampire slayers pop up, putting the suckers on the run for cover (and maybe making a guest appearance on Supernatural to save Dave & Sam's bacon, when all looks really bleak).  Once the new Scoobies really get cracking, they find out that they have been TOO successful, and now have to go out and get REAL jobs...  Then we get to see how they react to THAT!  

Personally, I think going Sci-Fi is a bad move, and the genres won't mix well.  Vampires vs. Power-armor with Anti-Grav and lasers and forcefields doesn't sound all that cool, to me, and the special effects costs will make it impossible to do, on a series basis.  I'd rather see "Grampa" T. R. Jones chasing Vamps around NY City at 3:00 AM with his shotgun shells packed with toothpick flechettes, and how he explains it to the cops!


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## Alzrius (Sep 21, 2005)

I'm not at all displeased to hear that Geller doesn't want to come back. I don't know if it was the writing, or her acting, but as a character Buffy annoyed the crap out of me. I couldn't ever see her more as an airhead with really crappy kung-fu.

Now, a movie with Spike would be great, especially if they could work in characters like Angel and Ilyria. I loved watching _Angel_, and would like to see more in that vein.


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## Iku Rex (Sep 21, 2005)

My new series based on existing characters: 

Spike 
Turned human (in the pilot of by the end of the first season). Happy to be human - unhappy about the lack of kewl powers. Tries to compensate with gadgets.

Illyria
"The Alien".

Andrew 
"The Watcher". Books and magic. Wants to be taken seriously.

Faith 
"The Slayer". For the complete ex-bad guy/gal set.

Maybe throw in one of the new slayers as "The Innocent" - extra eye candy and a fresh viewpoint.

Theme: The Dark Side beckons...

_I_ like it.


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## Henry (Sep 21, 2005)

[ QUOTE=Mouseferatu]Let Sarah focus on her _fabulous_ movie career. [/QUOTE]

Actually, I was surprised at her role in "The Grudge" - I thought she did a great job, and weirdly enough, she's developing a career as a "scream queen."  My personal favorite is the first "Cruel Intentions," however. YOWZA!


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## Klaus (Sep 21, 2005)

No, no, no, no more Andrew, pleeeeeeease!

Faith + Robin Wood is good. I'd rather have Wesley back, though.


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## Viking Bastard (Sep 21, 2005)

I dunno, I liked Andrew.



...as time went by.


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## drothgery (Sep 21, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> No, no, no, no more Andrew, pleeeeeeease!
> 
> Faith + Robin Wood is good. I'd rather have Wesley back, though.




Ditto, though Wes is pretty clearly dead, and I don't think ex-Watchers get a "come back from the dead" card.

I'd still like to see my idea for a post-Buffy/Angel Buffyverse show.

Take two of the non-title characters from Buffy/Angel, and have them as a roving team that looks for new Slayers, helps them get started, and/or provides some backup when the new girls get in trouble. Faith & Robin would work pretty well for that. Or Willow and Kennedy. Dawn & Xander. Maybe even Connor & someone new.


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## MaxKaladin (Sep 21, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm not at all displeased to hear that Geller doesn't want to come back. I don't know if it was the writing, or her acting, but as a character Buffy annoyed the crap out of me. I couldn't ever see her more as an airhead with really crappy kung-fu.



I pretty much have to agree.  It was one of the reasons I never liked the "Buffyverse".  Personally, I'd much rather he find a way to do more firefly or something like it as that worked a lot better for me than either of the "Buffyverse" shows.


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## humble minion (Sep 21, 2005)

Well, from what I've heard Sarah Michelle Gellar, Nicholas Brendon and Seth Green will most definitely not be working with Whedon again, and aside from Buffy, Xander and Oz that makes it really hard to include Willow or Dawn in a spinoff either.  And as far as I'm concerned we saw _far_ too much of Spike in the last few seasons of Buffy as it is - having the darn show-wreckin' Mary-Sue show up with his own series after miraculously coming back from the dead a SECOND time would make me barf.  

A Faith spinoff could work, though I'm inclined to think Faith's story came to a passably nice conclusion as things were.  Angel surviving the battle at the end of the series finale would massively cheapen things, so I hope they'd let him lie too.  The only one of the remaining cast I'd be particularly interested in seeing more of would be Illyria...


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## Iku Rex (Sep 21, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> .... Connor ...



< shudder > 

Anyone but Connor. The usleless little fink should never have been introduced in the first place.


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## evildmguy (Sep 21, 2005)

humble minion said:
			
		

> Well, from what I've heard Sarah Michelle Gellar, Nicholas Brendon and Seth Green will most definitely not be working with Whedon again . . .




Can you tell me why this is the case?  I haven't read much about them since they left.  I knew that SMG and SG probably wouldn't go back to those characters but I am surprised about NB.  

Thanks!

Have a good one!  Take care!  

edg


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## Mercule (Sep 21, 2005)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> < shudder >
> 
> Anyone but Connor. The usleless little fink should never have been introduced in the first place.




Eh, he was terrible as an angsty teen regular, but I actually liked him when he returned in the last season.  Couldn't be worse than Andrew -- man, I can't hardly stand to watch the episodes where he's featured.


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## Iku Rex (Sep 21, 2005)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Couldn't be worse than Andrew -- man, I can't hardly stand to watch the episodes where he's featured.



You are strange and off-putting. "Storyteller" has to be one of the best Buffy episodes made.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 21, 2005)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> You are strange and off-putting. "Storyteller" has to be one of the best Buffy episodes made.




Andrew was fine in very small doses. But when he became a semi-regular in season 7 is--for me--one of the distinct points when the show went downhill. Not too fond of his appearances in Angel, either.

Andrew was a one-joke pony whose joke got old long before the show ended, IMNSHO.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 21, 2005)

humble minion said:
			
		

> Well, from what I've heard Sarah Michelle Gellar, Nicholas Brendon and Seth Green will most definitely not be working with Whedon again




I, too, would like a source on this. While I've definitely heard the "Sarah doesn't want to play Buffy again" bit, the other two are news to me. Seth Green's appeared on numerous special features and has had nothing but good things to say about Joss, IME. And I've certainly never heard anything about Brendon having an issue with him.

If it's just net rumor, I'd be careful. Net rumor had me convinced that Seth Green and Sarah hated each other, and then Sarah started popping up as a guest voice on Seth's show "Robot Chicken."


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## KaosDevice (Sep 21, 2005)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> How about a Buffyverse TV Series set in the near future, perhaps 2050 or 2075. Spike would be the main character and build a new cast around Marsters.




Wasn't the main character of Joss' comic series 'Frey' (or was it 'Fray'? Never read it) essentially about a slayer in the future?


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 21, 2005)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> Wasn't the main character of Joss' comic series 'Frey' (or was it 'Fray'? Never read it) essentially about a slayer in the future?




Yep.

Decent series. Not great, not up to any of Joss' TV stuff, but not bad.

Good enough, in fact, that I'm rather miffed he never (to my knowledge) came out with a sequel to tie up the many loose ends.


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## ShadowDenizen (Sep 21, 2005)

For those die-hard Buffy fans, I'll recommend "Monster Zero Productions".
It's a site that has tons of Buffy-related stuff, inclusding a couple of virtual seasons of Buffy and Angel, and some spin-offs.

It's all unofficial, of course, but there's some really quality stuff to be had.
http://monsterzero.proboards3.com/


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## Klaus (Sep 21, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Andrew was fine in very small doses. But when he became a semi-regular in season 7 is--for me--one of the distinct points when the show went downhill. Not too fond of his appearances in Angel, either.
> 
> Andrew was a one-joke pony whose joke got old long before the show ended, IMNSHO.



 I only disagree with Mouseferatu on his first point. Andrew was irritating even in small doses. Season 7 would've been much more watchable if Johnathan was the killer and Andrew was the one gutted on the seal.


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## JimAde (Sep 21, 2005)

I liked Andrew.  Not liked as in "Hey come on over and let's game," but I thought he was an interesting character.  Weak-willed and overconfident at the same time.  Did horrible things but was still convinced he was the hero of his story (the hallmark of a well-written villain, for me).  Yes he was annoying, but that was part of the point.  He will never be cool, or respected, but he's trying anyway.

Anyway: More Buffyverse = GOOD


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## Viking Bastard (Sep 21, 2005)

I did think they overdid Andrew in the last season, but I loved his Angel appearances.


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## KaosDevice (Sep 21, 2005)

Well, considering Allyson Hannigan and Nicolas Brendon both have their own sitcoms (How I met Your Mother and Kitchen Confidential respectively) I doubt either of them will be doing Buffy projects any time soon. :\


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## Viking Bastard (Sep 21, 2005)

I'm still aching for a Ripper miniseries.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Sep 21, 2005)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> Well, considering Allyson Hannigan and Nicolas Brendon both have their own sitcoms (How I met Your Mother and Kitche COnfidential respectively) I doubt either of them will be doing Buffy projects any time soon. :\



Well, that depends on how long the sitcoms last.


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## JimAde (Sep 21, 2005)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> I'm still aching for a Ripper miniseries.



 I'd pay cash money to see that.  Giles was probably my favorite character in either series.


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## Merlion (Sep 21, 2005)

Interesting. Mainly, I'd like to see more of Illyria, personally.


Although truthfully, I'd rather see someone give JMS (Babylon 5 guy) some of the chances of Whedon has been getting to expand some of his stuff. I'm still annoyed by Crusade being cancelled without even a full season.

At least the 2 buffy shows got to have endings. And now Firefly is being made into a movie.


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## KaosDevice (Sep 21, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Well, that depends on how long the sitcoms last.





Well considering the longevity of most sitcoms those two will be available for a Buffy stint by next fall. (Although Kitchen Confidential does show promise.)


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 21, 2005)

JimAde said:
			
		

> Yes he was annoying, but that was part of the point.




Sure it was part of the point. That's not a defense, though.

Annoying is annoying, whether or not it was deliberate. Andrew may have accomplised _exactly_ what Joss Whedon wanted him to. Doesn't change the fact that by the end, I was so irritated with him that it dramatically impacted my enjoyment of what had been one of my favorite shows.


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## Olive (Sep 22, 2005)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> I'm still aching for a Ripper miniseries.




ME too. It wouldn't have Anthony Head in it though, cos it's a ipper series not a Giles series. You could have it narrated by Head and doing flashbacks but 70s UK punk magician TV would have to be pretty damn good.


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## Viking Bastard (Sep 22, 2005)

Or have to connected stories running at the same one. 

Something from Giles' past comes knockin'. We see today's mystery intershot with 70s flashbacks.


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## Kesh (Sep 22, 2005)

Whatever happened to the planned Giles series, anyway? I know Whedon was working on that idea as Buffy was wrapping up.

Though I wouldn't mind a series focused on Willow. Not one bit. n.n;;


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## Viking Bastard (Sep 22, 2005)

Development hell. BBC chickened out, I guess.


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## Klaus (Sep 22, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Sure it was part of the point. That's not a defense, though.
> 
> Annoying is annoying, whether or not it was deliberate. Andrew may have accomplised _exactly_ what Joss Whedon wanted him to. Doesn't change the fact that by the end, I was so irritated with him that it dramatically impacted my enjoyment of what had been one of my favorite shows.



 Heed the words of the Rodent, for he speaks The Truth!


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## Nightfall (Sep 22, 2005)

And the Truth will annoy you!


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 22, 2005)

Kesh said:
			
		

> Whatever happened to the planned Giles series, anyway? I know Whedon was working on that idea as Buffy was wrapping up.




Just didn't get past development, happens a lot. 

ASH will be showing up in the next season of Doctor Who, though, playing a headmaster of a strange school in one episode. There are rumors that he might be playing the Master, the Doctor's adversary. Said rumors have been debunked by the producers, but I like to think maybe they will turn out to be true...


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## humble minion (Sep 22, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I, too, would like a source on this.




I can't give you a source on the Seth Green thing (too long ago and it's defeated my Google-fu), I'd heard that Seth had been futilely trying to talk Whedon into giving him more screen time for Oz for quite a while, and eventually got sick of beating his head against a wall and decided leave the show.  I also _think_ I remember him mentioning turning down an opportunity to make a guest appearance in season 7, which gives me the impression that the bridges have been pretty much burned.

As for Nick Brendon, I'm reading between the lines from this article here.  Brendon says that Joss told him as early as season 4 that Xander's story was 'finished' and that he couldn't really expect any more meat in the role.  He kept going because he needed the money and he was having some personal problems at the time, but he sounds a little bitter about it in hindsight.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 22, 2005)

humble minion said:
			
		

> I can't give you a source on the Seth Green thing (too long ago and it's defeated my Google-fu), I'd heard that Seth had been futilely trying to talk Whedon into giving him more screen time for Oz for quite a while, and eventually got sick of beating his head against a wall and decided leave the show.  I also _think_ I remember him mentioning turning down an opportunity to make a guest appearance in season 7, which gives me the impression that the bridges have been pretty much burned.




Well, it's possible that Seth's speaking "for the audience" in his interviews on the Buffy DVDs, but he certainly doesn't sound like there were any burned bridges. According to those, he and Joss mutually decided to work the character out, and he was happy to come back for the guest spots he had after that point.



> As for Nick Brendon, I'm reading between the lines from this article here.  Brendon says that Joss told him as early as season 4 that Xander's story was 'finished' and that he couldn't really expect any more meat in the role.  He kept going because he needed the money and he was having some personal problems at the time, but he sounds a little bitter about it in hindsight.




That seems odd, to me, since I felt Xander had at least as much development after that, but... *shrug* Can't speak to that one.


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## John Crichton (Sep 22, 2005)

Andrew didn't bug me at all.  It was too much Spike, kinda-interesting Slayer Potentials and overall less of the main cast (Willow, Xander, Anya & Giles) that made S7 the weakest of the excellent series.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 22, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Andrew didn't bug me at all.  It was too much Spike, kinda-interesting Slayer Potentials and overall less of the main cast (Willow, Xander, Anya & Giles) that made S7 the weakest of the excellent series.




Oh, sure, the loss of focus on the main characters was season 7's _biggest_ weakness. I won't argue that at all. 

Andrew still bugged the crap out of me and made it even worse, though.


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## John Crichton (Sep 22, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Oh, sure, the loss of focus on the main characters was season 7's _biggest_ weakness. I won't argue that at all.
> 
> Andrew still bugged the crap out of me and made it even worse, though.



 It's interestint that there is so much Andrew hate.  I seem to (maybe incorrectly) recall that he was more of a strength than a weekness for most folks while the show was still on the air.  I didn't think he was hilarious but I did enjoy his antics more often than not.

I guess that character is kinda like Dawn - Either love her, hate her or be indifferent.  I rotated between the first and third depending on how she was used which is similar to Andrew, for me.


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## drothgery (Sep 22, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> It's interestint that there is so much Andrew hate.  I seem to (maybe incorrectly) recall that he was more of a strength than a weekness for most folks while the show was still on the air.  I didn't think he was hilarious but I did enjoy his antics more often than not.
> 
> I guess that character is kinda like Dawn - Either love her, hate her or be indifferent.  I rotated between the first and third depending on how she was used which is similar to Andrew, for me.




I disliked Dawn after season 5 because they never really managed to do anything with her. It's not that she was annoying, it's just that her character didn't really go anywhere. Andrew, on the other hand, was annoying.


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## warlord (Sep 22, 2005)

But at least Dawn was hot, really really hot. And I liked the turn her character took in season 7 she was finally useful.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 22, 2005)

The way Joss ended BtVS was brilliant: All the rules are different, meaning new types of stories, not old. And activating apparently ALL the potentials means there's a world full of girls with superpowers and no idea why or what they're supposed to do with them. Even with the Watchers rebuilding, there's bound to be many, probably even the majority of new Slayers they won't find until they do something noticeable.

Lots and lots of potential there. I'd love to see a new Slayer existing without knowing who or what she is -- and maybe not on the right side of the line.

If they must revisit older characters, Faith and Giles both scream out for more time spent on their characters.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 22, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Andrew still bugged the crap out of me and made it even worse, though.



He was hilarious in the Italian Angel episode, though. You could just see both vampires looking at him and thinking "wasn't he gay?"

I didn't much like Angel -- the Connor stuff was awful, and having a karaoke demon as a primary component of the show was like bad fanfic, and most of the demon worlds they visited looked like Northern California -- but the Jasmine stuff and the final season were very solid. I think doing a sequel would be hard, though. How the heck do you explain Illyria without taking up too much of the movie to do it?


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 22, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> He was hilarious in the Italian Angel episode, though. You could just see both vampires looking at him and thinking "wasn't he gay?"




that was the part I didn't like about his character evolution.  :\ I mentally maintain that the two chicks were slayers and he was just escorting them somewhere as part of his watcher duties.


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## Klaus (Sep 22, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Oh, sure, the loss of focus on the main characters was season 7's _biggest_ weakness. I won't argue that at all.
> 
> Andrew still bugged the crap out of me and made it even worse, though.



 Dammit, Ari, get outta my head!!!!

And once again, quoted for Truth.


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## DanMcS (Sep 22, 2005)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> Something from Giles' past comes knockin'. We see today's mystery intershot with 70s flashbacks.




And at the end, there's rocking 80s metal music and he cuts off their head.

Wait, wrong series.


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## Staffan (Sep 22, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Lots and lots of potential there. I'd love to see a new Slayer existing without knowing who or what she is -- and maybe not on the right side of the line.



They kinda did that one in an Angel episode, with a neo-slayer who was in an asylum.


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## TwistedBishop (Sep 23, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> He was hilarious in the Italian Angel episode, though. You could just see both vampires looking at him and thinking "wasn't he gay?"
> 
> I didn't much like Angel -- the Connor stuff was awful, and having a karaoke demon as a primary component of the show was like bad fanfic, and most of the demon worlds they visited looked like Northern California -- but the Jasmine stuff and the final season were very solid. I think doing a sequel would be hard, though. How the heck do you explain Illyria without taking up too much of the movie to do it?





Andrew's gay shtick got old very fast for me.  I hated the nerd trio in general though.  It's strange how if you read interviews by Mutant Enemy people, they all think Andrew was endlessly hysterical.

As far as Buffy's finale went, I loathed it.  Seasons 6 and 7 had been ruining the show anyway, but to completely change the dynamic of the Slayer was the final straw for me.  I don't want to see armies of Slayers, it holds little interest.  One was more than a match for hordes of demons, and now there's hundreds?  Yeah...exciting.  

Angel had a much better level of quality throughout its series run, and I now consider it to be the superior show.  It's a shame it will always play secondfiddle to Buffy's popularity.  Connor?  He could get repetitive in whining, but I never hated him.  He'd been betrayed and used by everyone he thought ever loved him, I felt more pity than annoyance.  Lorne....I started watching Angel in Season Four and couldn't stand him, thought it was the goofiest concept ever.  Watching the show from Season One onwards, he became my second favorite character, after Wesley.


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## Vigilance (Sep 23, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Andrew didn't bug me at all.  It was too much Spike, kinda-interesting Slayer Potentials and overall less of the main cast (Willow, Xander, Anya & Giles) that made S7 the weakest of the excellent series.




Season 7 was more about plot than character. The story got big and epic, which means not a lot of time for character. But hey, we'd gotten six seasons of that.

I liked Season 7 a lot because I loved the idea of the Slayer Academy, the lore of the potentials, and of course that sweet Slayer-axe Buffy finds. 

My "weakest link" of the series would be Season 4. It felt like they were really searching for what the show would be, post-High School.


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## Vigilance (Sep 23, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> As far as Buffy's finale went, I loathed it.  Seasons 6 and 7 had been ruining the show anyway, but to completely change the dynamic of the Slayer was the final straw for me.  I don't want to see armies of Slayers, it holds little interest.  One was more than a match for hordes of demons, and now there's hundreds?  Yeah...exciting.




I loved this idea personally.

First off, most slayers are *not* Buffy, so using her as a comparison for what a Slayer could do is incorrect. Of all the Slayers seen on the show (Buffy, Kendra, Faith, the First Slayer, the Chinese slayer killed by Spike and Nikki Wood) Buffy is by FAR the most powerful. 

Also, the idea of multiple slayers, to me, moves the show in the direction of the X-men. Girls get powers upon reaching puberty. Some (led by Giles and the Scoobies) try to help them understand what they are and use their powers for good, training them at various "Rupert Giles Schools for Gifted Girls", while others (various governments and criminals) attempt to harness the Slayers' power to benefit themselves. And then you'd have Faith-like wild cards. 

To me that was a brilliant turn and fertile ground for more stories.


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 23, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I think doing a sequel would be hard, though. How the heck do you explain Illyria without taking up too much of the movie to do it?




"An elder god, bereft of much of her power, and confined to earth in a mortal shell." Without Wesley, you don't really need to dwell too much on the whole Winifred angle any more.

I agree that the final season of Angel was excellent- it's the only one I'm going to pick up on DVD. The second half of the season faltered a little bit, but the first half was solid, and the show ended with a bang. 

I watched Angel up until the whole "Connor sleeps with Cordelia" thing- and then it all just got too painful. I kept wanting it to be more than it was, and it had some really good episodes, but mostly it just didn't quite do it for me. It seemed to me like the concept wasn't really solid- it kept moving all around and not ever quite settling, until the last season. Angel was initially described as being a show about redemption and the struggle to do the right thing, but that idea got sort of muddled. When the Fang Gang went to work for the bad guys, and had to struggle with corruption all around them, that's when it seemed like it connected; to me, it was like- here's the show it could have been all along.

Plus, I loved the Angel/Spike interaction (though many didn't). The two of them play off of one another very well.


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## Staffan (Sep 23, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Lorne....I started watching Angel in Season Four and couldn't stand him, thought it was the goofiest concept ever.  Watching the show from Season One onwards, he became my second favorite character, after Wesley.



Lorne was a great concept... for a recurring character. Then he became a regular, and then they blew up his bar a few times too many (or maybe that happened in reverse order), and they didn't really know what to do with him.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 23, 2005)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> I liked Season 7 a lot because I loved the idea of the Slayer Academy, the lore of the potentials, and of course that sweet Slayer-axe Buffy finds.
> 
> My "weakest link" of the series would be Season 4. It felt like they were really searching for what the show would be, post-High School.




Huh. Really? I still dither between whether season 6 or season 7 was the low-point of the series. I thought season 4 was third-best, personally.

But then, I have a large gap in my rankings between seasons 6 and 7, and the rest of the series.


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## Vigilance (Sep 23, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Huh. Really? I still dither between whether season 6 or season 7 was the low-point of the series. I thought season 4 was third-best, personally.
> 
> But then, I have a large gap in my rankings between seasons 6 and 7, and the rest of the series.




Seasons 6 and 7 were certainly different than the rest of the series. Anytime they dealt with Slayer lore on the series I was fascinated and Seasons 5 and 7 were the best for learning about the past slayers and examining what it means to be a slayer. 

But when I rank a season of Buffy as good or bad, its only in relation to other seasons. Its probably my second favorite TV show of all time (behind DS9). For me Season 4 felt fragmented so Id rate it lower. Season 1 had the Master arc, Season 2 the whole Angel-Spike-Drusilla triad, Season 3 the Mayor and Faith, Season 5 Glory, etc.

Season 4 had a lot of interesting stuff- I liked the Oz-Willow-Tera stuff. I loved the Initiative. I liked the final fight with Adam. But the season never really gelled the way my favorite seasons of the series did.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 23, 2005)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> But when I rank a season of Buffy as good or bad, its only in relation to other seasons.




Oh, absolutely. Bad Buffy is still better than a lot of what's on TV.  But I still found 6 and 7 to be major letdowns after all that had come before.

For me, the rankings are

3
2
4
1 and 5 (tied)
----large gap----
6 and/or 7 (still dithering)


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## mhacdebhandia (Sep 23, 2005)

Speaking of which . . .

When Joss Whedon came to Sydney to promote _Serenity_ a few weeks ago, he posted on a local fan forum that he wanted to come out the day before the junket proper began and have a "quiet drink" with any fans who felt like turning up.

I think by the time people stopped arriving we had fifty, sixty people? 

I was there when he arrived, before the real crowd showed up, so we got to talk to him a bit more than some other people - and, later, when we moved into the back room of the attached restaurant and all sat at tables while he made the rounds, fifteen or twenty minutes at each table, I asked him whether he had any firm ideas on what to do with the Buffy universe.

He replied that he did and that he'd know within a few months whether or not anything was going to come of it.


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## Steverooo (Sep 23, 2005)

*Joss Whedon*

He knows enough to find fan boards in Sydney?  I wonder if he ever pokes his nose in here?


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## mhacdebhandia (Sep 23, 2005)

It's possible that United International Pictures suggested a place for him to post when he mentioned his idea to them. Certainly their representative was able to post later in the thread he started about it and confirm that it was really him and that he was really going to do it.


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## Mean Eyed Cat (Sep 23, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Just please, Joss... I beg of you, man. _No more Andrew!!_




Yeah, but wasn't he the one that had everyone playing D&D towards the end of the last season?  I kinda liked him.

A little trivia from imdb:

"The seventh season episode, "Storyteller", which focused on the character Andrew, was an experiment to see how the audience would respond to a show centered around Andrew, since the series was ending and they were trying to find a character upon whom they could build another spin-off show."

and

"The series finale had two different major-character death scenes written, one in which Anya was killed, and the other in which Andrew was."

Hmm... makes ya wonder...


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## DonTadow (Sep 23, 2005)

Mean Eyed Cat said:
			
		

> Yeah, but wasn't he the one that had everyone playing D&D towards the end of the last season?  I kinda liked him.
> 
> A little trivia from imdb:
> 
> ...




I actually liked Andrew (but season six and seven for me are among some of the best episode wise).  How can we not like the only character in the series who played dungeons and dragons.


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## Viking Bastard (Sep 23, 2005)

I found Season 6 to be refreshing in it's darkness, it's about growing up, but I think
Season 7 flunked. Season 7, to me, seemed to be about passing the torch to the 
next generation, but somehow it lost it's mark. The season started out really light
hearted, much like the first seasons, but now with Buffy and The Scoobies in the 
role of the Giles/Angel/etc-like mentors and the Recruits in Scoobies' shoes. It just 
never  materialized and went into a more gloomy serious direction. I think if they 
had maintained that campy tone throughout the season it would have been much 
better. A better, more satisfying conclusion to Buffy's Journey. She went through
the fire and dark times and came out stronger.

I think this is what they were aiming at, but missed.

I liked the finale, though.


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## drothgery (Sep 23, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I actually liked Andrew (but season six and seven for me are among some of the best episode wise).  How can we not like the only character in the series who played dungeons and dragons.




Xander clearly has played (and so has that multi-millionaire from Angel). And Amanda the potential-Slayer didn't seem at all confused by the D&D-esque board game that she, Giles, Andrew, Xander, and Giles were playing.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 23, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> that was the part I didn't like about his character evolution.  :\ I mentally maintain that the two chicks were slayers and he was just escorting them somewhere as part of his watcher duties.



I think that's probably true, myself. Him appearing with the women was clearly just a gag bit IMO.


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## JimAde (Sep 23, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I think that's probably true, myself. Him appearing with the women was clearly just a gag bit IMO.



 And don't forget that Andrew is allegedly in the closet.  He was obviously trying to hide his preference when he was with his friends.  Maybe he was just putting on a show.


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 24, 2005)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> I found Season 6 to be refreshing in it's darkness, it's about growing up, but I think Season 7 flunked. Season 7, to me, seemed to be about passing the torch to the
> next generation, but somehow it lost it's mark.




I tend to agree. I really enjoyed Season 6, myself, though a lot of people seem to have objected to its dark tone. In the context of the series as a whole, though, I think it is even stronger than it was when it aired.

Season 7... meh. I thought it started out very strong, and I know part of my disappointment comes from the fact that I was subjecting myself to spoilers at the time (stupid me!)

Like you say, though, I got the sense the theme was "passing the torch", yet it too quickly lost its focus that way and found itself centered on Buffy too heavily for such a theme. If it was supposed to be about her learning to share the responsibility, she should have, and we should have seen the pain and reluctance from her to let that responsibility go. Instead, we got too many episodes of lectures and Buffy getting beat up and recovering to beat the baddies herself. (Not saying we should have had less Buffy, mind, but more of her angst over turning over the responsibility. I don't know, maybe they felt they'd done that in Season 3 with Faith- in which case, why do it again.)

Plus there were questions left unanswered, chiefly "why did the First Evil pick now to attack? What exactly did it mean when it said there was a weakness in the Slayer line?" Despite answers outside of the show (fan and official) this was something that really needed to be addressed in the show itself.

Haven't picked up S7 on DVD yet, so maybe it will work better when viewed in its entirety. Season 3 was that way for me, for sure.


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## Mean Eyed Cat (Sep 24, 2005)

I found this over at E! Online:


"And Good News for Angel Fans! Amy said Joss Whedon has spoken with her about resurrecting her role as Illyria. 'He has mentioned it a couple of times,' she told me. 'I mean, the last time, I talked to him a couple weeks ago and said that I had heard that Tim Minear was gonna write and direct the Spike movie, the Spike-Illyria movie, so he said that they want to do that still. I think he's just overwhelmed a bit right now with the press for Serenity and everything!' She said she and Joss have stayed close, and he gave 'the best gift ever' to her eight-month-old bundle of joy, Jack: 'He had a woman come in and teach him how to sleep through the night.' Always a miracle worker, that Joss."


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## glass (Sep 26, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Or, heaven forfend, he might do something in the Buffyverse without re-using characters.  Because we all know that Joss lacks for imagination, and would need those old characters as a crutch for his work...



I'm sure Joss could come up with something great without using any existing character, but selling it to the networks might bw a bit tricky.


glass.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 28, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> I'm sure Joss could come up with something great without using any existing character, but selling it to the networks might bw a bit tricky.



There have been plenty of times that Hollywood wanted to go with a more youthful version of a franchise. Attempted adaptations of genre material into mainstream Hollywood projects are rife with such stories.

By the time a new Buffyverse TV series were to get on the air, it would be the 2006-2007 TV season, at earliest. More realistically, it'd be a spring 2007 replacement series (just like Buffy was, so long ago) or 2007-2008 TV season show. Three years after Angel went off the air is an eternity in TV land, especially with the huge glut of genre shows on TV this year, thanks to the runaway success of Lost, which looks unlikely to crash and burn this year.

While I can certainly see an Angel/Illyria TV movie for, say, Sci-Fi, I don't see executives greenlighting a new series with any sort of real links to a show that aired three or more years ago, and probably on a different network. Network execs aren't in the business of selling someone else's DVDs.

More likely, I can see them saying "yes, well, we like the Buffy vibe, and you could certainly have those folks on as guest stars during sweeps, but we'd like to start fresh." Joss' ending to Buffy works brilliantly in this regard, as the possibilities for a world of Potentials becoming Slayers without Watchers or with the help of neuvo Watchers who don't have the support of a world-spanning organization are endless.


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