# GameStore Spam



## andargor (Nov 30, 2005)

Please disable any further spam messages from the GameStore.

I have never willingly allowed such mailings, and I find that my "GameStore Account" had indications that I had opted-in, when I systematically disable such check boxes.

I don't want any mail unless I ask for it explicitly.

EDIT: This is in reference to the " [ENGS] ENWorld GameStore Newsletter #4" sent by c.johanson@centurytel.net today.

Andargor


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## Morrus (Nov 30, 2005)

You can disable it very easily by clicking here.  You currently have it set at "Yes".


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## andargor (Nov 30, 2005)

Morrus said:
			
		

> You can disable it very easily by clicking here.




Thanks for the reply, but it is respectfully not my point.

I don't want mailings if I don't ask for them, period. Even if they are easy to disable. So are all other forms of spam (click "unsubscribe").

I didn't ask for it, so I don't want it in my inbox in any shape or form.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but this is something I take to heart and am not willing to compromise.

EDIT: Summary: Set the default to "No"

Andargor


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## Morrus (Nov 30, 2005)

It's based on what you selected when you signed up for the boards - where you were asked specifically.  Emails don't go out to anyone who said "no".  The link above is just a copy of your board email settings.


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## Twin Rose (Nov 30, 2005)

The system is not "smart" enough to know what mails you want to get, and what ones you don't.  Many, many users have their mailing settings turned off, and that's what determines the default settings for your ENGS account.  We certainly do not want to send out any spam, but we also realize that a large number of people who come to the store DO want to receive notices about special offers, sales, discounts and the like - they do want to save money.  So we default it to what peoples board settings are for mailing.


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## andargor (Nov 30, 2005)

I didn't even know I had an "ENGS" account, let alone known what ENGS was until this mail.

I am not going to debate good practices and UCEs ad nauseam. I've already communicated my displeasure, so it should be an indication that something is unclear to users about what they are signing up for when registering.

Andargor


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## Jaws (Nov 30, 2005)

Morrus said:
			
		

> It's based on what you selected when you signed up for the boards - where you were asked specifically.  Emails don't go out to anyone who said "no".  The link above is just a copy of your board email settings.



ENGS wasn't around when I signed up to the boards.

Is there a way to cancel my Subscription and get my remaining money back?


Peace and smiles 

j.


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## Morrus (Nov 30, 2005)

Jaws said:
			
		

> ENGS wasn't around when I signed up to the boards.




Neither is anything referred to in admin-sent news, by definition!  The whole concept of board-sent emails is based on the fact that it's new information.  Knowing in advance what information you want and what you don't is impossible - but we do provide the option to filter that down by disabling the GameStore news specifically.



> Is there a way to cancel my Subscription and get my remaining money back?




'Fraid not!  I assume you're referring to your community supporter account?  I don't mind refunding it if, for some reason, you're not getting the benefits of it (i.e. it's not working properly), but not every time I do or say something that people disagree with!


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## Jaws (Dec 1, 2005)

Morrus said:
			
		

> but not every time I do or say something that people disagree with!



This is why I'll never buy from the EN World GameStore. And tell everyone I know not to.


Peace and smiles 

j.


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## Steverooo (Dec 1, 2005)

*Translation:*

I think what Andargor was saying is: Opt-Out is uncool.  Opt-In is the way we should go.  YMMV.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Dec 1, 2005)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Opt-Out is uncool.  Opt-In is the way we should go.




While I don't mind the ENGS emails and don't personally consider them spam, I wholeheartedly agree with the above. The ENGS newsletter should not default to the general messageboard settings as the emails are of two very different natures-board messages are usually administrative in nature, while ENGS emails are advertisements and promotional emails. Two very different things. The boards were not setup initially to support the store, so defaulting to those settings for store emails is not the best practice.


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## Twin Rose (Dec 1, 2005)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> While I don't mind the ENGS emails and don't personally consider them spam, I wholeheartedly agree with the above. The ENGS newsletter should not default to the general messageboard settings as the emails are of two very different natures-board messages are usually administrative in nature, while ENGS emails are advertisements and promotional emails. Two very different things. The boards were not setup initially to support the store, so defaulting to those settings for store emails is not the best practice.




Believe it or not, I've tried to include -news- in the newsletter, which is why it was late a couple of weeks ago.  New features, new ... Well.. new things!  

I would love everyones help on this, in that I'm in a bit of a pickle.  For every person complaining, there are hundreds of people, well... Not complaining, and in fact, sending me emails discussing problems in the email (such as receiving multiple copies) and asking me to correct it before next weeks newsletter....  And then going on to say thank you for letting them know about such things as the community supporter discounts that so many publishers have opted to give... A huge number of people have come from the newsletter to check out the "Most Wanted" feature that we added, and many publishers have been glad to receive the information about the "Good Faith" program.

Now, this is where my problem lies.  I have people who are happy to receive it, people who are unhappy, and ... Honestly .. Only about 1% of the visitors to the store actually GO to their account settings at the store and change them.  I am very open to suggestions!


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## robomage (Dec 1, 2005)

I like the newletter but why did I get 3 copies of the same newsletter in my inbox?


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## Twin Rose (Dec 1, 2005)

robomage said:
			
		

> I like the newletter but why did I get 3 copies of the same newsletter in my inbox?




It's a vbulletin error, too many people received it, and so the system kept resetting the mail queue.  Terribly sorry about that.  I've fixed the problem for next time.  (If there is a next time, depending on customer response)


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## Crothian (Dec 1, 2005)

I liked it and is is opt in, I remember signing up for the boards and asking to recieve e-mails.  I had to specifically click that to allow it to happen.  I think the problem is people clicked it and then never got any since until now as far as I know, EN World has never sent out e-mails to people.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Dec 1, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I liked it and is is opt in, I remember signing up for the boards and asking to recieve e-mails.  I had to specifically click that to allow it to happen.  I think the problem is people clicked it and then never got any since until now as far as I know, EN World has never sent out e-mails to people.




The problem is that the Opt In was for the boards, not for the store. I did sign up to receive email, but at the time I did so, there wasn't an ENGS, and I did not opt in to receive email from it. I only Opted to receive email from the boards. 

The store should be considered a seperate entity, especially where email is concerned.


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## Graywolf-ELM (Dec 1, 2005)

I was concerned with this E-mail as well.  Not only did I not buy anything at the store, like the message stated, (which was why I was getting this e-mail)  I did not opt-in for any such thing.  The other problem I had with it, was that it was not from an enworld e-mail address, so it was additionally indicative of spam trying to phish for information as well.  

I'm just glad to have what it is cleared up.  This is still my favorite board for gaming discussion and such.

Thank you,
GW


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## Steverooo (Dec 2, 2005)

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> Only about 1% of the visitors to the store actually GO to their account settings at the store and change them.  I am very open to suggestions!




Well then, here's mine:  Don't send E-mail to people who haven't opted in to receive it (and by that I mean specifically from the ENWGS, not the ENW boards).  There is a setting on the ENWGS, already, which allows people to OPT *OUT*.  Change that, and make it OPT IN, instead.  If only 1% use it, then it is the fault of the 99% that they don't!  Set up the initial accounts to default to Opt-out, and allow users the option to change it.

Then, post a note to the opening page of ENWorld, as well as on the Homepage of the ENWGS, on the Shopping Cart, and other appropriate places, saying that the ENWGS has an Opt-in Newsletter, and that the default is NOT to receive it.  For best results, a "Click here to be added to the Newsletter Mailing List" and "Click here to be removed from the Newsletter Mailing List" link should also be added.

When/If you have people E-mailing you, asking about the newsletter, you can send them a link to this page (or the existing account settings page).  As long as people know that opting in is required, and how to get there/do that, it shouldn't be a problem (except, perhaps, for an internet newbie).  People who DON'T want "Spam" won't be getting it.  People who DO want it will have to go an extra step to get it, but then they'll also learn how to use the account settings page, so maybe that's a good thing!  

Of course, the ENWGS doesn't listen to me, anyway...  They still don't believe that they're losing 11.25% of their potential business by not accepting checks/money orders, either, so...


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## Twin Rose (Dec 2, 2005)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Of course, the ENWGS doesn't listen to me, anyway...  They still don't believe that they're losing 11.25% of their potential business by not accepting checks/money orders, either, so...




We do....  Please check the paypal checkout option 

Edit:  With the new paypal options, I'm looking into being able to take phone orders, checks via mail, etc.


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## RangerWickett (Dec 2, 2005)

Jaws said:
			
		

> This is why I'll never buy from the EN World GameStore. And tell everyone I know not to.
> 
> 
> Peace and smiles
> ...




May I ask what specifically is making you not want to buy from the store? Is it the emails? I fully agree with that. I personally loath any form of email sent by a store or business or website. If a particular publisher sent me an email saying, "Hey, you bought our Book of Things. Here's another book related to that one," I _might_ be interested. But I hate general newsletters. I don't think the ENGS should have one, and I sell through it.

If, however, you think that you have received poor customer service from Morrus because he could not fix a problem right away just as it was starting to be discussed, and because he did not refund your money for a purchase that is only tangentally related to your complaint, I'd have to say that you're being unfair to EN World and to the store. If you went to a gas station, filled up, and bought a hot dog that was bad, you should get your money back for the hot dog, but getting free gas is not going to happen. 

They're working to fix the email problem. The rest of EN World is just as good as it was before. I can understand why you'd want a refund, but I'd hope you'd reconsider leaving the site. With luck this email thing will be fixed shortly, and you can go back to enjoying your community supporter account. I'm guessing Russ is just a bit defensive because he's trying to provide services people will appreciate, and instead people are expecting everything to be perfect right off the bat, and are getting angry at him when they're not.

Please, I sell through the store and I'm asking that you reconsider.


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## diaglo (Dec 2, 2005)

Graywolf-ELM said:
			
		

> I was concerned with this E-mail as well.  Not only did I not buy anything at the store, like the message stated, (which was why I was getting this e-mail)  I did not opt-in for any such thing.  The other problem I had with it, was that it was not from an enworld e-mail address, so it was additionally indicative of spam trying to phish for information as well.
> 
> I'm just glad to have what it is cleared up.  This is still my favorite board for gaming discussion and such.
> 
> ...





ditto.

and i won't be buying anything from it as long as it is pdf only. i don't do pdfs.


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## Joshua Randall (Dec 2, 2005)

Just throwing my voice into the chorus: OPT-OUT is lame. I wondered what the heck was going one when I suddenly started getting tons of ENGS e-mails *without me ever having asked for them*.

Subsequently I went into the store and opted-out, *but I shouldn't have had to*. I should never be getting unsolicited e-mails. Period.


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## Jaws (Dec 2, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> May I ask what specifically is making you not want to buy from the store? Is it the emails? I fully agree with that. I personally loath any form of email sent by a store or business or website. If a particular publisher sent me an email saying, "Hey, you bought our Book of Things. Here's another book related to that one," I _might_ be interested. But I hate general newsletters. I don't think the ENGS should have one, and I sell through it.
> 
> If, however, you think that you have received poor customer service from Morrus because he could not fix a problem right away just as it was starting to be discussed, and because he did not refund your money for a purchase that is only tangentally related to your complaint, I'd have to say that you're being unfair to EN World and to the store.
> 
> ...



There shouldn't have been an 'e-mail problem'.

The reply I received from Russ wasn't professional.

Your ad is offensive.

I bought an E.N. Publishing product a while back. It wasn't even close to being good as all the reviewers said. I never used it. The mechanics were so clunky (if you make a d20 product, you should use a d20 mechanic).

First impressions go a long way. The GameStore has stumbled more than taking a foot forward. Always down on one knee.

I'm getting bombarded by ads. I shouldn't have to deal with that if I paid for a community supporter account.


Peace and smiles 

j.


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## RangerWickett (Dec 2, 2005)

Jaws said:
			
		

> I bought an E.N. Publishing product a while back. It wasn't even close to being good as all the reviewers said. I never used it. The mechanics were so clunky (if you make a d20 product, you should use a d20 mechanic).




Just curious, which product?


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## Psionicist (Dec 2, 2005)

You are doing yourself a huge disservice here.

All common spam-filters work by couting words in an e-mail and then comparing it to the spam filters internal list of common spam-words. I got 7 gamestore e-mails and my spam filter was kind enough to catch all them. I don't care about that, I already recieve a couple of hundred e-mails per day.

HOWEVER, my spam filter now associates the word "en world" with spam. This is particularly a problem with web based e-mail services such as GMail where the spam filter is shared between all users (partially at least).

A couple of months ago I forgot my password on this site so I requested it. My spam filter didn't flag that email as spam. If I'd do the same thing again, today, I believe my spam filter would catch it.

Cheers,


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## mythusmage (Dec 3, 2005)

Jaws said:
			
		

> There shouldn't have been an 'e-mail problem'.
> 
> The reply I received from Russ wasn't professional.
> 
> ...




Your cheeful good humor and ready skill at handling life's disappointments is an inspiration for us all.


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## Umbran (Dec 3, 2005)

Wow.  

You know, I don't even get this upset about spam from folks trying to sell me things I don't give a whit about.  I'm hardly going to get upset about someone at least trying to sell to an appropriate market.

If you opted in for e-mail from the site, without considering that the site might change over time, that's hardly Morrus' fault.  Our lack of foresight does not consititue a crisis for him or the boards.  Nor is it some major failure of ethics on Morrus' part.  He has reason to believe that every single site member might be interested in the things the store has to sell.

Perspective is called for - the e-mail of the present is a small collection of charges, simply nullified with a single click or keypress.  One of the future nullified with a further keypress.  If we cannot keep our cool in the face of a couple of keystrokes, we don't deserve something so spiffy as the internet.

My $0.02


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## Steverooo (Dec 3, 2005)

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> We do....  Please check the paypal checkout option
> 
> Edit:  With the new paypal options, I'm looking into being able to take phone orders, checks via mail, etc.




I'm sorry... what was your point?  I went, I looked, I saw...  You can pay via credit card and/or PayPal...  So?

In the server drive, you could do the same.  Still, in that EMERGENCY situation, 11.25% of the ENWorlders who responded, did so by checks or money orders.  The problem (currently) remains.

Perhaps you meant "We're working on it!  Really!", in which case I say "Good (as long as it doesn't require me to use PayPal)!  I have a couple of items loaded into my Shopping Cart, waiting on you!  MUSH!"


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## pogre (Dec 3, 2005)

I gotta' say I was kind of lukewarm about this whole ENWorld gaming store at first, but now I'm pretty much addicted. Anything that helps the site become more self-sufficient and focused is cool by me. Especially when it is providing a real service instead of begging*.

Unfortunately, I was one of the ones who did read the e-mails and it brought me into the store. So, it was effective for at least one sale. I also promptly opted out of future mailings - it was not hard at all 

*I know ENWorld and Morrus have never begged for $, but you know what I mean. It's an effort to turn a buck for product instead of having a fund drive kind of thing.


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## Bront (Dec 6, 2005)

I wasn't thrilled about getting e-mails from the store, and as stated before, here's the confusion:

People who signed up before the store was opened enabled or disabled e-mail options, most likely to be contacted by other users on the board.

When the EnWorld Gamestore started, we were automaticly added or not added to the mailinglist by this setting, which had nothing to do with the EnWorld Gamestore as far as we were concerned.

Now, for new accounts, it's eays, they can choose then.  Older accounts should have had to specificly opted in, perhaps only with an announcement from the Administrator about the new store and mentioning that you can subscribe to the newsletter.

Now, I'm not willing to not purchase a Supporter account simply based on this, but it does bother me a little bit, particularly because I was unaware that I could unsubscribe from this newsletter in the first place.

Just my $.02.


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## Twin Rose (Dec 6, 2005)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> I'm sorry... what was your point?  I went, I looked, I saw...  You can pay via credit card and/or PayPal...  So?
> 
> In the server drive, you could do the same.  Still, in that EMERGENCY situation, 11.25% of the ENWorlders who responded, did so by checks or money orders.  The problem (currently) remains.
> 
> Perhaps you meant "We're working on it!  Really!", in which case I say "Good (as long as it doesn't require me to use PayPal)!  I have a couple of items loaded into my Shopping Cart, waiting on you!  MUSH!"




I mean that Paypal will accept checks for us, and when it clears, I get a notice.  In fact, I've processed several already.  It takes some manual work, on my part, but we most definately cand do it.


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## Twin Rose (Dec 6, 2005)

Let me see if I can do some things to change who gets the email.  Currently, it's not everyone on EN World - not in the least.  Just the people who do visit the store, do searches and things that activate their GameStore account.  Perhaps, instead, for people who haven't opted out it will ALSO further narrow it down into people who have made purchases and/or grabbed free product?  (With the ability still to opt out?)

I have also been careful to make sure that the lions share of the newsletter is just that - news.  New publishers joining, new features, and the fact that we were making a contribution to the hurricane Katrina relief product "Suck Da Head, Squeeze Da Tail" from Dog Soul publishing.  Not finding a venue to pimp my own products.  Certainly I won't send it out if there isn't any news to report.


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## soulforge (Dec 6, 2005)

Ya know what..
I just wanna say that I'm willing to suck it up.

I mean that for a store I believe in, and products that have a hard enought time being sold.  I am willing to be on your list, and to look over any e-mails.

Hard enough to sell an RPG product anyways so I want any information of new products coming Out I don't know about.


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 6, 2005)

Man, this thread reminds me that I need to actually be a supporter.  I'm missing out on all the irateness!

On a tangent though, I don't buy from the store for another reason - Paypal.  I refuse to use it in any shape or form, and knowing that even if I send a check it goes in that account, bothers me.  I'd much rather see ENWGS set up some sort of business bank account.

Which would explain why I haven't become a supporter yet either.


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## thalmin (Dec 6, 2005)

I was wondering what the fuss was about, as I had not received any email about the store. Last night I discovered my spam filter was catching them all. Hope nothing important was caught in the filter.

I hate spam.


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## Twin Rose (Dec 6, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Man, this thread reminds me that I need to actually be a supporter.  I'm missing out on all the irateness!
> 
> On a tangent though, I don't buy from the store for another reason - Paypal.  I refuse to use it in any shape or form, and knowing that even if I send a check it goes in that account, bothers me.  I'd much rather see ENWGS set up some sort of business bank account.
> 
> Which would explain why I haven't become a supporter yet either.




The problem is, that many - many - products we sell cost under a dollar fifty.  And a merchant account costs about a dollar fifty per transfer, plus hundreds a month.  Compared to paypals 40 cents, plus 20 dollars a month.   I suppose I could handle checks directly ... But I don't think I could handle them outside of the US.


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 7, 2005)

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> The problem is, that many - many - products we sell cost under a dollar fifty.  And a merchant account costs about a dollar fifty per transfer, plus hundreds a month.  Compared to paypals 40 cents, plus 20 dollars a month.   I suppose I could handle checks directly ... But I don't think I could handle them outside of the US.




Oh, don't get me wrong, Paypal as a theory works wonders.  I just have a problem with what is essentially a bank that is not FDIC (or foreign equivalent) approved.

I know I'm missing some great products out there because I refuse to use it at all, and I think it's a shame.  I think it's more a shame though that Paypal really is the only viable way for a small internet business to be successful.

And that's all I'll say, before I contribute to a thread de-railing.


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## DanMcS (Dec 17, 2005)

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> Let me see if I can do some things to change who gets the email.  Currently, it's not everyone on EN World - not in the least.  Just the people who do visit the store, do searches and things that activate their GameStore account.  Perhaps, instead, for people who haven't opted out it will ALSO further narrow it down into people who have made purchases and/or grabbed free product?  (With the ability still to opt out?)




Any progress on this?  I just received email from the game store (Newsletter #5).  I haven't bought anything from the store, and this really isn't encouraging me.  As far as I know, I've done nothing to set up a gamestore account, so this must have been done in the background, without notifying me, at some point.  This kind of thing shouldn't activate until someone has a business relationship with your store, and then there should be a specific option page they go through the first time they buy something that sets up this newsletter option.  Anything else is opt-out instead of opt-in, and that makes it spam.


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