# Orcs preview



## jaelis (May 9, 2008)

Does anyone else think the bloodrager looks a whole lot tougher than the chieftan?  Blood for blood seems pretty righteous.

Also, I like how they put general info about the monsters right into the Lore section, avoiding the kind of repetition you got the old way where the Lore entries summarized what the entry already said.


----------



## TwinBahamut (May 9, 2008)

I like the fact that all Orcs get a boost to movement speed when charging, and a lot of the other common racial details. It seems like the kind of thing that ports over well to making Orc PCs.

Also, the combination of the Eye of Gruumsh's aura and a swarm of minions sounds pretty brutal... Even in death they can hurt you. Interesting that the Orc Cheiftan has a much weaker version of the exact same ability. I suppose that would mostly come up if the Eye is dead and the Chieftan wants the last ally standing to pull off a final attack.


----------



## Alkiera (May 9, 2008)

I do like the layout.

As to the relative strength... one is a straight brute, while the other is a brute(leader) multiclass.  He traded the gross heal thing for the ability to have all his underlings hit harder and to be able to make dying allies take a last-gasp swing at their enemies.  He's less focused on personal power than tribe/clan power.

Also, the Eye of Gruumsh is no slouch.  Like a lower-level version of the chieftan, all nearby allies get that death strike, and can grant an ally orc a free attack with a mini-version of that blood for blood power.

No wonder common people are afraid of orcs...  They're nasty.


----------



## Korgoth (May 9, 2008)

Do orcs not shoot arrows at people?  None of the orcs had bows.  That always seemed like a staple orc weapon.

Also, if a bloodrager shows up, how is it that he doesn't simply kill off an entire town by himself?  How could commoners ever stop that kind of thing?


----------



## Incenjucar (May 9, 2008)

Hopefully the next preview is the Pie chapter.


----------



## Ravingdork (May 9, 2008)

*THE NEW ORCS ROCK!*


*(Click the picture to see the Preview)*​
Get both an Eye of Grumsh AND a Chieftan in the same battle with lots of charging minions for severe carnage. Each time a minion dies, it gets two attacks against its killer. Sweet.


----------



## Boarstorm (May 9, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Also, if a bloodrager shows up, how is it that he doesn't simply kill off an entire town by himself?  How could commoners ever stop that kind of thing?




I... I don't even know how to respond to this.  I mean, replace "bloodrager" with just about ANY creature level 5 or above and you may see where I'm coming from.

Simply put -- the commoners DON'T stop that kind of thing.  Taking down a warrior or drudge?  Sure, the commoners can do that (albeit with heavy losses).  But stopping the bloodrager?  That's where heroes come in.


----------



## Incenjucar (May 9, 2008)

Art could be better, but not that important.

--

Huh, did we know that minions were immune to damage from missed attacks?

Also, man, level 9 minion with 1hp...


----------



## Boarstorm (May 9, 2008)

Incenjucar said:
			
		

> Huh, did we know that minions were immune to damage from missed attacks?




As of last night, yes.  Thank Thalmin's scoops


----------



## mach1.9pants (May 9, 2008)

Villagers cannot survive in the face of the Tarasque as well  

As I put in the other post interesting that:
1. Orcs are CE. No 'usually' or other such thing.
2. Bye bye to the old language of Orcish. That was normally the first language my PCs pick up as a bonus...looks like Giant is the choice of champions now!


----------



## Mircoles (May 9, 2008)

They'll be alot more fun to use now, even if they don't speak orchish anymore.


----------



## Korgoth (May 9, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:
			
		

> Villagers cannot survive in the face of the Tarasque as well




True.  But the game world is hardly teeming with Tarasques (well, I assume).  It is, however, probably teeming with orcs.  So how is anybody alive?  And if the answer is "heroes" then we've moved into what is essentially a hero-based ecology.

I suppose the only reasonable presumption is that bloodragers are fairly rare.  Here's hoping.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 9, 2008)

Or one assumes that the commoners band up together and attack enforce against the orc. You figure with numbers playing a much more major role in 4e, I think say 10-20 commoners could take it down.


----------



## Boarstorm (May 9, 2008)

Meh, there are only as many bloodragers in the world as the DM places there.  But from a simulationist perspective, let's say the tarasques just love orc vittles and travel the earth rampaging in their search for more bloodrager-ka-bobs.


----------



## mach1.9pants (May 9, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> I suppose the only reasonable presumption is that bloodragers are fairly rare.  Here's hoping.



True, they are as rare as your DM allows!
Anyway, I guess, that the PoL will have kobolds and goblins close Orcs further away, then further to more dangerous stuff. DnD ecology has always been a can of worms vis a vis disbelief suspension


----------



## Stalker0 (May 9, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Also, if a bloodrager shows up, how is it that he doesn't simply kill off an entire town by himself?  How could commoners ever stop that kind of thing?




Dude, commoners are the scariest thing a bloodrager can face!! Being minions themselves, commoners can't be bloodied, and so the bloodrager doesn't get his power.

Power to the common man!!


----------



## hong (May 9, 2008)

The bloodrager is actually kinda screwed if it's only fighting commoners. It heals when it hits a bloodied foe, but it's liable to drop any commoner in one hit, so they never become bloodied....


----------



## Boarstorm (May 9, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Dude, commoners are the scariest thing a bloodrager can face!! Being minions themselves, commoners can't be bloodied, and so the bloodrager doesn't get his power.
> 
> Power to the common man!!




The mental image this conjures up is just priceless.


----------



## Ktulu (May 9, 2008)

I'm not entirely sure the no damage from missed attacks isn't just an Orc minion rule.  Just like how kobold minions provide a boost to attack when adjacent to other kobolds, and vampire spawn get a boosted damage/attack when adjacent, as well.  It meshes with the orcs being somewhat hard to kill.


----------



## catsclaw227 (May 9, 2008)

The HP seems pretty high too.  216 HP for an Orc Chieftain, with a surge of 54 HP.  Add in an Orc Bloodrager (194HP and 48 Surge) and maybe a few Orc Warrior minions and that's a lot of damage output.


----------



## Incenjucar (May 9, 2008)

Orcs aren't much of a threat if you assume 90% of their forces are minions.

Even the level 9 minions die with a single shot.

Actually, considering they're so heavily melee-focused, they're perfectly designed for archers (cursed elves) to slaughter.


----------



## Ten (May 9, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Dude, commoners are the scariest thing a bloodrager can face!! Being minions themselves, commoners can't be bloodied, and so the bloodrager doesn't get his power.
> 
> Power to the common man!!




The party begins to set camp as the sun dips below the horizon, casting an appropriately blood-tinged hue to the sky.  Two of their members lay unconscious, the three remaining  awake ones don't appear to have fared much better.  Still jumpy, the rogue turns to the warlord and solemnly comments to the warlock "Those orcs...they are just too powerful for us!  Those big ones seemed to grow stronger as we grew weaker.  Damn the bounty, our hides are not worth it!".  

The warlord scratches his chin before replying "No, I believe I have a plan that  I believe can take them down.  Tomorrow at dawn we need to return to town."

The rogue, shocked that he could have come up with something so quickly wonders out loud "What in the world are you thinking?!  There is nothing there that could help us against those orcs!"

"Wrong!  They have exactly what we need!"

"Which is...?"

"Commoners.  Hundreds of them."


----------



## Korgoth (May 9, 2008)

They certainly did a good job of allowing heroes to plow through 1,000 orcs at a time (minions) without making them pushovers.

I also do like the fact that they supply you with enough ready-made orcs to cover all the bases.

Also, I like the lore section.  Cribbed from the WHFRP Bestiary?  A good idea in any case.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 9, 2008)

I like the Orc's Warrior Surge alot. It really fits with my vision of HP, I can just imagine a Orc after being bloodied attacking a target and becoming more amped up and shrugging off more of its pain because of witnessing the carnage he has done onto the opponent.


----------



## hong (May 9, 2008)

I'll probably allow orc bloodragers to heal on dropping a foe, in addition to on hitting a bloodied foe.


----------



## Boarstorm (May 9, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> I'll probably allow orc bloodragers to heal on dropping a foe, in addition to on hitting a bloodied foe.




OMG, you're playing D&D wrong!

I kid, I kid...


----------



## MindWanderer (May 9, 2008)

I'm not too crazy about the fact that the skirmisher, which is supposedly a ranged specialist, is better in melee than at range (better attack bonus, damage, and can use Warrior's Surge).


----------



## Kordeth (May 9, 2008)

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> I'm not too crazy about the fact that the skirmisher, which is supposedly a ranged specialist, is better in melee than at range (better attack bonus, damage, and can use Warrior's Surge).




Skirmishers aren't ranged specialists, _artillery_ are ranged specialists. Skirmishers are a bit like the monster equivalent of strikers--they skulk around the edges of the fight and pick off targets of opportunity, and there's nothing about that role that requires the monster be a ranged fighter.


----------



## Alkiera (May 9, 2008)

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> I'm not too crazy about the fact that the skirmisher, which is supposedly a ranged specialist, is better in melee than at range (better attack bonus, damage, and can use Warrior's Surge).



 Yeah, but it's an orc.  Big STR, lots of sound and fury, not so much on the tactical 'stand here and throw stuff'.  

Also, note the 'Killer's Eye' power...  if target is inside 25', cover and concealment are ignored by his ranged attacks.  He has face-seeking hand-axes.

Player> I peek around the corner to see where the orc is.
GM> *rolls die* You catch axe with your face!  Take 6 damage.
Player> But I was hiding around the corner?!
GM> Orc has Killer Eye, you cannot hide from the face-seeking handaxe!


----------



## Dausuul (May 9, 2008)

"Ranged specialist" is relative.

Love the new orcs.  The bloodrager especially is going to be a vicious combatant.  Free attack on you any time you hit him... heh.


----------



## frankthedm (May 9, 2008)

Yeah those handaxes will be ensuring the back row characters are using their healing surges. Not only are the orc's axes phasing through its allies, but the target's allies as well.


----------



## Incenjucar (May 9, 2008)

See, to me, that sounds awesome.

And they need SOME range in there, and against other melee, yes, you want to use range as long as you can because in D&D we have things like Whirlwind attacks, and ideally your minions will be surrounding the opponents anyways, at least for a round or two.


----------



## Kyrail (May 9, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> True.  But the game world is hardly teeming with Tarasques (well, I assume).  It is, however, probably teeming with orcs.  So how is anybody alive?  And if the answer is "heroes" then we've moved into what is essentially a hero-based ecology.
> 
> I suppose the only reasonable presumption is that bloodragers are fairly rare.  Here's hoping.




Hm.  Thinking too much of them as monsters than as a society.

Basically, it's just a level 7 orc.  What stops level 7 orcs?  Level 7 humans hopefully.

That's like saying "Well, some towns have a level 8 adventurer in them so why are they any orcs?"

Mind you orcs have commoners as well, women, children, ect.  Sure most of the population ends up becoming fighters but besides that they're just your average humanoid just like humans.

Any civilization living on the frontier with orcs will have plenty of men at arms to defend them... maybe not from a level 5, but they wouldn't all be commoners, or not for very long if that was the case.

Edit: Wow, I love the new stat blocks.


----------



## baberg (May 9, 2008)

The Orc Bloodrager is listed as a 600XP monster.  I'd like to see how a fight would go against the 6 DDXP premades in a one-on-six battle.  194 HP is a lot to get through, especially given his healing and bonuses on bloodied opponents.  I have a feeling the PCs would feel in control for the first half of the fight, then repeatedly shout "WHY WON'T HE GO DOWN?!" as they get bloodied, enraging the Orc even more.

Ooh, also just noticed the Greataxe deals d12 damage.  Finally, a use for the most under-used die in the game


----------



## RodneyThompson (May 9, 2008)

Let me tell you guys, we fought one of those bloodragers last night in Chris Perkins' game, and they are some nasty dudes. In the span of just a few turns over half of our party went from un-bloodied to bloodied thanks to other bad guys in the room (some orc archer minions, a dinosaur, an ogre of some sort, and some kind of orc leader I think Chris devised himself), and it turned into "Panic Mode" as we tried to kill that bloodrager before he could heal up in his, ahem, target-rich environment.


----------



## baberg (May 9, 2008)

Moridin said:
			
		

> In the span of just a few turns over half of our party went from un-bloodied to bloodied thanks to other bad guys in the room (some orc archer minions, a dinosaur, an ogre of some sort, and some kind of orc leader I think Chris devised himself)



For some reason that made me laugh.

The barkeep asks, "So, what did you guys encounter down in the Devil's Abyss?"
The adventurers reply, "An Orc Bloodletter, some minions, *a dinosaur* - you know, the usual."


----------



## Minigiant (May 9, 2008)

"Can't hide in the trees, the raiders will get me. Can't hide in the trees, the raiders will get me. Can't hide in the trees, the raiders will get me. Fog Spell ended. Run for your LIVES!!!"

That's no orc, it's a morale vampire!
I aint playing melee anymore.


----------



## mach1.9pants (May 9, 2008)

baberg said:
			
		

> Ooh, also just noticed the Greataxe deals d12 damage.  Finally, a use for the most under-used die in the game



Yep and you also get to roll the D12 for some of the orcs on a crit  Different from the norm.


----------



## frankthedm (May 9, 2008)

That is  actually the property of the great axe.


----------



## mach1.9pants (May 9, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> That is  actually the property of the great axe.



Oh *

*There are now only 4 smileys on my tab (after all the 4E symbols) and hitting 'more' just gives a pop up page with an error. So from now on I am using this   for blush and this   for roll eyes and this   for evil grin........


----------



## Cirex (May 9, 2008)

Moridin said:
			
		

> Let me tell you guys, we fought one of those bloodragers last night in Chris Perkins' game, and they are some nasty dudes. In the span of just a few turns over half of our party went from un-bloodied to bloodied thanks to other bad guys in the room (some orc archer minions, a dinosaur, an ogre of some sort, and some kind of orc leader I think Chris devised himself), and it turned into "Panic Mode" as we tried to kill that bloodrager before he could heal up in his, ahem, target-rich environment.




It really looks scary. Bloodrager and Eye of Gruumsh are lovely monsters, with nice mechanics based on the flavour. Eye of Gruumsh, a melee buffed in name of Gruumsh, with allies around him making their final attacks when their breath expires...and the Bloodrager is just madness.


----------



## Trainz (May 9, 2008)

Those stat blocks are smooth, nasty, and fun.

They're putting the "M" back in DM.

Niiice...


----------



## UngeheuerLich (May 9, 2008)

Hmmh... the Orc Minion entries seem strange... I can´t find out any logic behind their attribute modifiers nor their attack bonuses...


----------



## keterys (May 9, 2008)

UngeheuerLich said:
			
		

> Hmmh... the Orc Minion entries seem strange... I can´t find out any logic behind their attribute modifiers nor their attack bonuses...




My bet? The first used to be 1st level and the 2nd used to be 6th.

That or minions get half (level - 3) which would be odd.


----------



## Demigonis (May 9, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Also, if a bloodrager shows up, how is it that he doesn't simply kill off an entire town by himself?  How could commoners ever stop that kind of thing?




Haha, I guess we know how the "points of light" setting works. The points of light are towns with actual guards, all the unguarded commoner towns already got eliminated.


----------



## Wotansman (May 9, 2008)

Have they changed the information about alignment?  I was thrown off by the Orc's having CE alignments... or is it only for NPC's?  I am stuck at an "I don't get it moment."  I actually liked the whole good, unaligned, and evil thing they had going.
So what's up with that?


----------



## mach1.9pants (May 9, 2008)

For those behind the firewall[sblock]ORCS WORSHIP GRUUMSH, THE ONE-EYED GOD OF SLAUGHTER, 
and are savage, bloodthirsty marauders. They plague the 
civilized races of the world and also fight among themselves 
for scraps of food and treasure. They love close combat and 
plunge furiously into the thick of battle, giving no thought to 
retreat or surrender.

  Within what passes for orc society, there are orcs that fill 
special roles. Eyes of Gruumsh are orcs with a special connec-
tion to their fierce god. They offer sacrifices, read omens, and 
advise the tribe’s chieftain of Gruumsh’s will. Orc bloodragers 
are tribal champions feared for their strength and ferocity, 
and they also make excellent subchiefs or bodyguards.

  Orcs often fight alongside ogres, and they can be coerced 
or bullied into serving any dark overlord or wicked monster 
powerful enough to command their obedience.

Orc Drudge  Level 4 Minion
Medium natural humanoid   XP 44
Initiative +0  Senses Perception +0; low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 16; Fortitude 15, Reﬂ  ex 12, Will 12
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
  Club (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
  +9 vs. AC; 5 damage.
Alignment Chaotic evil  Languages Common, Giant
Str 16 (+3)  Dex 10 (+0)  Wis 10 (+0)
Con 14 (+2)  Int 8 (–1)   Cha 9 (–1)
Equipment hide armor, club
*Orc Drudge Tactics*
Orc minions have no particular sense of honor and simply 
swarm around a foe and hack it to death. Orc drudges usually 
begin a fight by charging (they gain extra speed in the charge).

Orc Warrior  Level 9 Minion
Medium natural humanoid   XP 100
Initiative +3  Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 21; Fortitude 19, Reﬂ  ex 16, Will 16
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
  Battleaxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
  +14 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Alignment Chaotic evil  Languages Common, Giant
Str 17 (+6)  Dex 11 (+3)  Wis 10 (+3)
Con 15 (+5)  Int 8 (+2)  Cha 9 (+2)
Equipment leather armor, light shield, battleaxe
*Orc Warrior Tactics*
The orc warrior charges into battle, cutting down its enemies 
with its battleaxe.

Orc Raider  Level 3 Skirmisher
Medium natural humanoid   XP 150
Initiative +5  Senses Perception +1; low-light vision
HP 46; Bloodied 23; see also warrior’s surge
AC 17; Fortitude 15, Reﬂ  ex 14, Will 12
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
  Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
  +8 vs. AC; 1d12 + 3 damage (crit 1d12 + 15).
 Handaxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
  Ranged 5/10; +7 vs. AC; 1d6 + 3 damage; see also killer’s eye.
  Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter) 
✦ Healing, Weapon
  The orc raider makes a melee basic attack and regains 11 hit 
points.
Killer’s Eye
  When making a ranged attack, the orc raider ignores cover and 
concealment (but not total concealment) if the target is within 5 
squares of it.
Alignment Chaotic evil  Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +8, Intimidate +5
Str 17 (+4)  Dex 15 (+3)   Wis 10 (+1)
Con 14 (+3)  Int 8 (+0)  Cha 9 (+0)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe, 4 handaxes
*Orc Raider Tactics*
The orc raider hurls handaxes until it runs out of axes or until 
its enemies close to melee, at which point it draws its greataxe.

Orc Berserker  Level 4 Brute
Medium natural humanoid   XP 175
Initiative +3  Senses Perception +2; low-light vision
HP 66; Bloodied 33; see also warrior’s surge
AC 15; Fortitude 17, Reﬂ  ex 13, Will 12
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
  Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
  +8 vs. AC; 1d12 + 5 damage (crit 1d12 + 17).
 Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter) 
✦ Healing, Weapon
  The orc berserker makes a melee basic attack and regains 16 hit 
points.
Alignment Chaotic evil  Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Intimidate +6
Str 20 (+7)  Dex 13 (+3)   Wis 10 (+2)
Con 16 (+5)  Int 8 (+1)  Cha 9 (+1)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe
*Orc Berserker Tactics*
The fierce berserker wades recklessly into battle and would 
rather die than retreat.

Orc Eye of Gruumsh  Level 5 Controller (Leader)
Medium natural humanoid   XP 200
Initiative +6  Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
Wrath of Gruumsh aura 10; orcs in the aura can use death strike
(see below).
HP 64; Bloodied 32; see also warrior’s surge and death strike
AC 19; Fortitude 17, Reﬂ  ex 14, Will 15
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
 Spear (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
  +10 vs. AC; 1d8 + 3 damage.
 Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter) 
✦ Healing, Weapon
  The eye of Gruumsh makes a melee basic attack and regains 16 
hit points.
 Death Strike (when reduced to 0 hit points)
  The orc makes a melee basic attack.
 Eye of Wrath (minor; at-will) ✦ Fear
  Ranged 5; +8 vs. Will; the target takes a –4 penalty to AC (save 
ends).
 Swift Arm of Destruction (standard; recharge ⚄ ⚅ ) ✦ Healing
  Ranged 5; one orc within range makes a melee basic attack (as a 
free action) and regains 15 hit points on a hit or 5 hit points on a 
miss. 
 Chaos Hammer (standard; encounter) ✦ Force
  Area burst 1 within 10; +8 vs. Reﬂ  ex; 2d6 + 3 force damage, and 
the target is knocked prone. Miss: Half damage, and the target is 
not knocked prone.
Alignment Chaotic evil  Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Intimidate +10, Religion +7
Str 17 (+5)  Dex 14 (+4)   Wis 12 (+3)
Con 16 (+5)  Int 11 (+2)  Cha 17 (+5)
Equipment leather armor, fur cloak, spear
*Orc Eye of Gruumsh Tactics*
This orc stays within 10 squares of its allies so that they ben-
efit from its aura. Unless it has an enemy it can attack with 
its spear, the eye of Gruumsh uses its eye of wrath up to three 
times in a round to make its foes more vulnerable to attacks, 
and then uses swift arm of destruction to help keep its allies 
in the fight. If it sees multiple enemies grouped together, it 
pounds them with chaos hammer.

Orc Bloodrager  Level 7 Elite Brute
Medium natural humanoid   XP 600
Initiative +5  Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
HP 194; Bloodied 97; see also warrior’s surge
AC 21; Fortitude 22, Reﬂ  ex 19, Will 17
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
Action Points 1
 Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
  +11 vs. AC; 1d12 + 5 damage (crit 1d12 + 17); see also blood for 
blood.
Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter) 
✦ Healing, Weapon
  The orc bloodrager makes a melee basic attack and regains 48 
hit points.
Wounded Retaliation (immediate reaction, when hit by an 
adjacent enemy; at-will)
  The orc bloodrager makes a melee basic attack against the 
enemy.
Blood for Blood ✦ Healing, Weapon
  When it hits a bloodied enemy, the orc bloodrager deals an extra 
5 damage and regains 10 hit points.
Alignment Chaotic evil  Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +11, Intimidate +8
Str 20 (+8)  Dex 15 (+5)   Wis 11 (+3)
Con 17 (+6)  Int 9 (+2)  Cha 10 (+3)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe
*Orc Bloodrager Tactics*
The orc bloodrager charges into battle and spends its action 
point to make an extra attack following its charge attack. 
When it is hit by an adjacent enemy, it uses wounded retaliation.

Orc Chieftain  Level 8 Elite Brute (Leader)
Medium natural humanoid   XP 700
Initiative +5  Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
Blood of the Enemy aura 5; bloodied allies in the aura deal an extra 
2 damage with melee attacks.
HP 216; Bloodied 108; see also warrior’s surge
AC 22; Fortitude 22, Reﬂ  ex 19, Will 21
Saving Throws +2
Speed 5 (7 while charging)
Action Points 1
Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦Weapon
  +11 vs. AC; 1d12 + 5 damage (crit 1d12 + 17).
 Inspire Ferocity (immediate reaction, when an ally within range 
drops to 0 hit points; recharge ⚄ ⚅ )
  Ranged 10; the ally makes a melee basic attack.
 Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter) 
✦ Healing, Weapon
  The orc chieftain makes a melee basic attack and regains 54 hit 
points.
Alignment Chaotic evil  Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +12, Intimidate +13
Str 20 (+9)  Dex 14 (+6)   Wis 12 (+5)
Con 18 (+8)  Int 10 (+4)  Cha 19 (+8)
Equipment chainmail, greataxe
*Orc Chieftain Tactics*
The orc chieftain stays close to its allies so that they can take 
advantage of its blood of the enemy aura and its inspire ferocity 
power.[/sblock]


----------



## mach1.9pants (May 9, 2008)

And the fluff[sblock]Orc Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful 
Nature check.
DC 15: Orcs favor hills and mountains, places pocked 
by caverns easily turned into defensible lairs. Bloodthirsty 
marauders and cannibals, orcs venerate Gruumsh and 
thereby delight in slaughter and destruction.
  Orcs don’t build settlements of their own, instead improv-
ing existing shelters with crude fortifications. They prefer to 
settle in natural caves or structures abandoned by other, more 
skillful races. Orcs can manage simple ironwork and stone-
work, but they are lazy and grasping, preferring to take by 
force the tools, weapons, and goods other folk make.
DC 20: Orcs band together into loose tribal associations. 
The strongest individual in a tribe leads as a despotic chief-
tain. Individual bands within a tribe might wander far from 
their native lands, but they still recognize orcs from the same 
tribe as kin.
DC 25: Orcs often demonstrate their faith in Gruumsh by 
gouging out one of their eyes and offering it as a sacrifice to 
their one-eyed god.
  According to myth, Corellon shot out Gruumsh’s eye with 
an arrow. For this reason, orcs hold a special hatred for elves 
and eladrin.
Encounter Groups
Orc tribes use ogres and trolls as muscle for war and labor. 
They sometimes keep boars, drakes, and other beasts as pets.
Level 4 Encounter (XP 900)
✦ 2 orc raiders (level 3 skirmisher)
✦ 2 orc berserkers (level 4 brute)
✦ 1 dire boar (level 6 brute)
Level 6 Encounter (XP 1,350)
✦ 1 orc eye of Gruumsh (level 5 controller)
✦ 2 orc berserkers (level 4 brute)
✦ 4 orc warriors (level 9 minion)
✦ 2 dire wolves (level 5 skirmisher)
Level 9 Encounter (XP 2,150)
✦ 1 orc chieftain (level 8 elite brute)
✦ 5 orc warriors (level 9 minion)
✦ 1 dire boar (level 6 brute)
✦ 2 ogre skirmishers (level 8 skirmisher)
Level 10 Encounter (XP 2,650)
✦ 2 orc bloodragers (level 7 elite brute)
✦ 1 bloodspike behemoth (level 9 brute)
✦ 1 ogre skirmisher (level 8 skirmisher)
✦ 1 oni night haunter (level 8 elite controller)[/sblock]


----------



## Cirex (May 9, 2008)

UngeheuerLich said:
			
		

> Hmmh... the Orc Minion entries seem strange... I can´t find out any logic behind their attribute modifiers nor their attack bonuses...




NPCs don't follow same rules as PCs. So that attack bonus could have been set arbitrarily. You know, they wanted the 1 HP minion at level 9 to have this attack bonus, so it's useful enough and a good run for its experience cost.


----------



## Minigiant (May 9, 2008)

Did anyone realize that a bloodrager, with an eye behind him and a bloodied foe in front, can sit at 10-30 HP for a long time.

Because he can swing at a Feared bloodied foe who kills him and reset back to 10HP. Then hit the guy on his turn and whenever he get gets hit.

better bring rangers and warlocks.


----------



## frankthedm (May 9, 2008)

Wotansman said:
			
		

> Have they changed the information about alignment?  I was thrown off by the Orc's having CE alignments... or is it only for NPC's?  I am stuck at an "I don't get it moment."  I actually liked the whole good, unaligned, and evil thing they had going.
> So what's up with that?



Player have their choices.

Evil, good,and unaligned are still options. The players also probably got chaotic, chaotic evil,  chaotic good, lawful, lawful evil and lawful good.

Monsters will vary, but most traditional player foes will be *Evil*. Most humaniods are not misunderstood beings just trying to survive, they are wicked killers and murdering them makes the world a better place.


----------



## UngeheuerLich (May 9, 2008)

Cirex said:
			
		

> NPCs don't follow same rules as PCs. So that attack bonus could have been set arbitrarily. You know, they wanted the 1 HP minion at level 9 to have this attack bonus, so it's useful enough and a good run for its experience cost.



 hmhm... there should be guidelines for that... until now, at least the stat bonuses seemed to follow the rule: half level + 3.5 bonus...

also the attack bonus seems quite high compared to that str 20 orc...


----------



## keterys (May 9, 2008)

Both have attack values of Level + 5 vs AC, which lines up perfectly with what I've been seeing, so that's fair.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (May 9, 2008)

There's a good reason Human Guards use Halberds as their standard weapon, it helps them survive an orc bloodrager with their extra square reach attacks...


----------



## hong (May 9, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Player have their choices.
> 
> Evil, good,and unaligned are still options. The players also probably got chaotic, chaotic evil,  chaotic good, lawful, lawful evil and lawful good.
> 
> Monsters will vary, but most traditional player foes will be *Evil*. Most humaniods are not misunderstood beings just trying to survive, they are wicked killers and murdering them makes the world a better place.



 Hmm. I can see it now: "Orc: the Barbarian". Orcs as tragic, demon-tainted beings, heroically struggling to transcend the curse of their origin....


----------



## UngeheuerLich (May 9, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> Both have attack values of Level + 5 vs AC, which lines up perfectly with what I've been seeing, so that's fair.



 kobod minion has Level +4 vs AC... (+5 vs AC, 2 damage)

Vampire spawn (probably outdated) has normal stats for a Level 6 monster... so right now i am confused by those minon's statblocks...


----------



## Iron Sky (May 9, 2008)

Minigiant said:
			
		

> Did anyone realize that a bloodrager, with an eye behind him and a bloodied foe in front, can sit at 10-30 HP for a long time.
> 
> Because he can swing at a Feared bloodied foe who kills him and reset back to 10HP. Then hit the guy on his turn and whenever he get gets hit.
> 
> better bring rangers and warlocks.




Hm... yeah, Death Strike + Blood for Blood = scary.  Of course, he has to _hit_ a _bloodied_ foe to get the hp back, but still.  Then if he lives, the Eye uses Swift Arm of Destruction to give the Bloodrager _another_ attack and 15/5 more hp...

The number of attacks rolling of the Bloodrager alone would be enough to put the fear of orcs into melee types, but with an eye next to him too, yikes.

Edit: Add a Chieftain for that extra attack at 0 hp.


----------



## Ravingdork (May 9, 2008)

Minigiant said:
			
		

> Did anyone realize that a bloodrager, with an eye behind him and a bloodied foe in front, can sit at 10-30 HP for a long time.
> 
> Because he can swing at a Feared bloodied foe who kills him and reset back to 10HP. Then hit the guy on his turn and whenever he get gets hit.
> 
> better bring rangers and warlocks.




*PC:* Die you filthy orc scum!
*BloodRager:* Dies but is immeditely granted new life and ferocity from the Mystic Eye working magic behind him.
*PC:* WHAT!? *gets decapitated*

A lot of heroic parties are going to cry when they see this in action. The only balancing factor is the vain hope that the BloodRager will miss on his dying attack.


----------



## Rechan (May 9, 2008)

The answer? Squish the Eye before the Bloodrager goes down.  

Which is also more than likely, because the rager's going to be up for a looong while.

Although, I really want to see a fight between a Bloodrager and a Paladin, now. Both seem to have the "I can take the damage" going.


----------



## arscott (May 9, 2008)

Demigonis said:
			
		

> Haha, I guess we know how the "points of light" setting works. The points of light are towns with actual guards, all the unguarded commoner towns already got eliminated.



Candles are points of light in the darkness.

Doesn't mean they can't be blown out by a stiff wind.


----------



## ProfessorCirno (May 9, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Hmm. I can see it now: "Orc: the Barbarian". Orcs as tragic, demon-tainted beings, heroically struggling to transcend the curse of their origin....




Hah!


You know, with that One Eye'd God...oh wow, the phallic jokes that will be thrown at tables.


----------



## arscott (May 9, 2008)

Ktulu said:
			
		

> I'm not entirely sure the no damage from missed attacks isn't just an Orc minion rule.  Just like how kobold minions provide a boost to attack when adjacent to other kobolds, and vampire spawn get a boosted damage/attack when adjacent, as well.  It meshes with the orcs being somewhat hard to kill.



I doubt it.  It seems like a simple rewording of the earlier minion hp rules to eliminate confusion.

The kobold minion's hp line said:
A minion dies when _hit_ by an attack that deals damage

This could easily mean "no damage on a miss", which I suspect was the designer's original intent.  And it plays better--without this rule, the minions automatically die when hit with a half-on-miss attack (not quite as common as in 3e, but it makes undead minions useless vs. parties with a cleric).

The new phrasing makes things clearer, while eliminating ambiguities in regards to things like Cleave.


----------



## Hambot (May 9, 2008)

Oh yeah.  Bring on the 4e orc goodness.  These monsters are more interesting and exciting than half the 3e monster manual, and this is just 3 pages of it.  You can just see the axes fly and the shaman chant while the badass bloodrager takes on 3 bloodied pc's by himself.

Sooooo much easier to DM a couple of quick monsters from the book too, but if complexity is your thing you just throw in an evil eye and a chieftan for one big bag of overlapping effects.

And these are just the Orcs - I now eagerly await other iconic monster tribes to see how different they feel.


----------



## Iron Sky (May 9, 2008)

Huh, scenario time:

4 PCs vs 1 Bloodrager, 1 Eye.  Bloodrager down to 10 hp. All PCs are bloodied as well.
PC 1 hits him, drops him to 0, he counter-attacks via Eye's Death Strike aura AND his retaliation, hits with both, goes up to 20 hp. Repeat for two other melee PCs.
On his turn, he uses warriors surge, regains 48 hp + 10 vs Bloodied PC.
On the Eye's turn, Bloodrager gets Swift Arm of Destruction, attacks, hits, gets 15 hp + 10 vs Bloodied PC.
So, instead of dying to 3 different PCs, he is now at 103 hp, back out of Bloodied...

Of course, a few successful ranged attacks would take care of that, but I can imagine the PC's expressions as they pound on this thing.  Mmmm.

Also imagining their confusion when he keeps flipping between Bloodied and normal.  Goes down to 90, bloodied.  Hits a blooded PC, up to 100 hp non-bloodied.  Hit again, down to 88, bloodied.  Hits same PC, 98hp, non-bloodied.  Hit by big daily crit, down to 55 hp.  Uses Surge, up to 103 hp, non-bloodied.  "Why won't he die!?!?"


----------



## Blackrat (May 9, 2008)

arscott said:
			
		

> Candles are points of light in the darkness.
> 
> Doesn't mean they can't be blown out by a stiff wind.



Damn. That's quite zen  . Would make a good koan...


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 9, 2008)

Iron Sky said:
			
		

> Huh, scenario time:
> 
> 4 PCs vs 1 Bloodrager, 1 Eye.  Bloodrager down to 10 hp. All PCs are bloodied as well.
> PC 1 hits him, drops him to 0, he counter-attacks via Eye's Death Strike aura, hits, goes up to 10 hp. Repeat for two other melee PCs.



If I am not mistaken, this requires an immediate action, and the Orc has only one of them.


----------



## Iron Sky (May 9, 2008)

Oh.  Couldn't remember if that was 4E DnD or Dark Heresy that had that rule.  Guess it's both.  Problem with playing multiple rule systems at the same time and reading about yet another...

Well, the rest of the math works.  He can still go from 0 to 103 hp in one round with backup from the Eye.  It also looks like the Eye's Aura power doesn't require a reaction?  If so, the Bloodrager would get two attacks when dropped to 0 once, then one attack any other times until his turn.


----------



## hennebeck (May 9, 2008)

So now a DMing question:

Do you tell your players you are using the warrior surge or Inspire ferocity? I mean by name?
Or do you just keep getting back up and swinging, waiting for them to figure out.


----------



## CrimsonNeko (May 9, 2008)

I actually really love the idea of monsters that get back up quickly right as they die.  I always liked the scene in stories of notable villains apparently being down for the count, than all of the sudden jumping up as the hero turns their back and stabbing them in the back.  Also, it isn't like PCs won't have abilities like that.  I mean, every PC has healing surges, and I'm sure defenders will have some self-healing, not to mention leaders having group healing.  From what I understand, it's not that tough for a whole party of PCs to come back to nearly full in one round if they need to, though only once or twice in an encounter.

Actually, what concerns me more is all minions having 1 hp.  I guess it makes narrative sense, considering classical fantasy.  The hero mows through a couple hundred minions without pausing and only stops when he gets to a real threat.  I suppose, if they want to stay true to the current idea of fantasy, they need to make minions more like background noise....and even more humiliating when the 10th level paladin gets pwned by them   

Also, first post.  Been meaning to post for a while, love the site.  Can't wait for 4th ed.  Guess I'm in the OMG new edition sounds good!!!!111!!11oneone!!1 crowd.

Edit: to the guy above me: It depends on your style.  Me personally, I would do something more narrative, such as "It looks like you finished him off.  He seems to barely be moving.  Suddenaly, he gives a gutteral roar, screaming "This isn't over!" as he strikes at you with a cruel slash (in the case of the orcs).  While you can still see the scars you gave him, it looks like he is far from down for the count".  Than again, my style is all about the narrative.  I hate just saying "he uses (spell)", as opposed to describing the affect (Which makes the saving defense thing good for me, since I can build the narrative after I see saving throws more easily).


----------



## BeauNiddle (May 9, 2008)

Tide of Iron.

If you push / slide the orc away then nobodies in range when he retaliates.

So does this mean bloodragers will attack their own side so they can get the blood healing back? Town guards with spears pushing the bloodragers back into the horde and watching them slaughter each other as they desperately try to hold the line.

Damn now I REALLY want to play


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 9, 2008)

Iron Sky said:
			
		

> Huh, scenario time:
> 
> 4 PCs vs 1 Bloodrager, 1 Eye.  Bloodrager down to 10 hp. All PCs are bloodied as well.
> PC 1 hits him, drops him to 0, he counter-attacks via Eye's Death Strike aura AND his retaliation, hits with both, goes up to 20 hp. Repeat for two other melee PCs.
> ...




BUT... in 4e don't all monsters just die at 0hp?

So when he drops to 0 he gets that last dying swing of the axe thanks to death strike aura, but he is dead. 

d.e.a.d. dead.

So we probably don't have to worry about unkillable bloodragers


----------



## DeusExMachina (May 9, 2008)

Also I think the Bloodrager is an instance where the Paladin's Divine Challenge is going to be useful, because those retaliatiory attacks of him won't be focused on other players then, or at the least it will nullify the healing he gets fromt hose attacks... So the paladin has to hide behind his shield while the orc rages at him and the strikers try to take the bastard down before the paladin goes down... Cool stuff...

I'm definitely excited about the new monsters and their roles and combinations. I always thought the MM was a rather boring book to go through, but now it looks way more interesting...


----------



## AtomicPope (May 9, 2008)

Very cool.  I like that Orcs in 4e have a different feel than:

_Creature with X statline, Y feats, using Z weapons._

Like in 3e.


----------



## Primal (May 9, 2008)

Has anyone posted that 'ORC AXEBERSERKER LICH' yet?

His powers could include following abilities:

 RAGE LIKE HELL (Recharge 5, 6): You get +4 to damage and saves when you rage
 AXE MANIAC (Melee +10 - At-Will): You get an extra attack with a Greataxe (damage 1D12+12)
 RUGH, BRUTAL! (Recharge 6): You get to attack all adjacent enemies.
 +All the Lich goodness, of course!

Here's the powers of a 6th level ELVEN INNKEEPER (Controller):

 THROW TANKARDS (Ranged +11 - At-Will): Damage 1D4 + DEX
 MY INN, MY RULES! (Recharge 3, 4, 5, 6): Elven innkeeper gets +2 to all rolls within his inn, while his adversaries get -1 to all their rolls.  
 USE THE TRAP DOOR (Daily): The elven innkeeper may teleport outside the inn by using his secret trap door and escape tunnel.


----------



## neceros (May 9, 2008)

Boarstorm said:
			
		

> I... I don't even know how to respond to this.  I mean, replace "bloodrager" with just about ANY creature level 5 or above and you may see where I'm coming from.
> 
> Simply put -- the commoners DON'T stop that kind of thing.  Taking down a warrior or drudge?  Sure, the commoners can do that (albeit with heavy losses).  But stopping the bloodrager?  That's where heroes come in.



Unless commoners aren't push overs as they shouldn't be. Peasants from old would destroy any of us in one on one combat. They worked so hard they kept in good shape, almost entirely.


----------



## Gunpowder (May 9, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> BUT... in 4e don't all monsters just die at 0hp?
> 
> So when he drops to 0 he gets that last dying swing of the axe thanks to death strike aura, but he is dead.
> 
> ...




They do, this combo only works if the 10 hit points from the attack from the Death Strike aura bumps him to positive because his Wounded Retaliation is a reaction so it happens after the triggering effect. So drive him into the negative enough and the 10 hit points wont be enough to bring him to positive so the second attack never occurs due to death.  

Wait, full stop. All healing effects ignore negative hit points and start healing you from zero automatically. So they *are* unkillable against bloodied melee opponents because the healing from Blood for Blood triggering off the Death Strike happens after being driven to below zero which the healing ignores the negative hit point penalty and starts healing from zero. Hell the bloodied opponent doesn't even need to be the one delivering the killing blow. 

So yes a bloodrager is unkillable as long as he is in the aura and has a bloodied enemy in melee range, assuming he hits with his Death Strike attack.


----------



## AtomicPope (May 9, 2008)

Gunpowder said:
			
		

> Wait, full stop. All healing effects ignore negative hit points and start healing you from zero automatically. So they *are* unkillable against bloodied melee opponents because the healing from Blood for Blood triggering off the Death Strike happens after being driven to below zero which the healing ignores the negative hit point penalty and starts healing from zero. Hell the bloodied oppunent doesn't even need to be the one delivering the killing blow.
> 
> So yes a bloodrager is unkillable as long as he is in the aura and has a bloodied enemy in melee range.



It says - When he _hits _ a bloodied enemy...

Not unkillable.  With +11 vs AC with a basic melee attack the average tank in Plate Armor with a +1 Shield (pretty standard really) will have an AC 24 at 7th level.  Even with _Eye of Wrath _ it's still a 40% miss chance.  Not unkillable.

Edit:  That's still pretty darn good though.


----------



## Gunpowder (May 9, 2008)

AtomicPope said:
			
		

> It says - When he _hits _ a bloodied enemy...
> 
> Not unkillable.  With +11 vs AC with a basic melee attack the average tank in Plate Armor with a +1 Shield (pretty standard really) will have an AC 24 at 7th level.  Even with _Eye of Wrath _ it's still a 45% miss chance.  Not unkillable.





Argh, Let it be known that I thought to edit my post with the caveat, "assuming he hits" before I noticed your post correcting me.


----------



## Charwoman Gene (May 9, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> The players also probably got chaotic, chaotic evil,  chaotic good, lawful, lawful evil and lawful good.




Where is there any evidence for Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil?  LN or CN?


----------



## LowSpine (May 9, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Also, if a bloodrager shows up, how is it that he doesn't simply kill off an entire town by himself?  How could commoners ever stop that kind of thing?




This isn't new to 4E. This is always an issue. Every village or town would have to be built like a castle to hold off all the stuff in D&D. That is the problem of having increasing power levels. 

In real life humans would have about 3 levels max and the same would go for eveything else humanoid. 

We survive large predators because they are completely stupid and we aren't.

Dragons, mages, demons - if D&D was based on logic humans wouldn't survive without all being high tech soldiers in underground bunkers. And their quality of life would be the same as the soldiers in Terminator.


----------



## Beastman (May 9, 2008)

Interesting article, but if the whole book has that format, I guess there is a lots of white space if they don't wnat to break the stat-blocks.

Anyone noticed this: Minions do a fixed amount of damage? Is this true for all minions or just orc minions?


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (May 9, 2008)

Many thanks for putting up all the details - for some reason I can't unzip stuff at work.

I am absolutely thrilled with these Orcs - I completely agree that they look like a great way to challenge parties in a brutal melee fight.

I think we should start a "Why won't it DIE?!" sweepstake - how many times will the average party bloody the battlerager before it finally collapses?


----------



## arscott (May 9, 2008)

Primal said:
			
		

> Has anyone posted that 'ORC AXEBERSERKER LICH' yet?
> 
> His powers could include following abilities:
> 
> ...



Isn't it kinda counterproductive to use the numbered bullet points recharge dice when the actual attack symbols are  in_the exact same spot_?


----------



## UngeheuerLich (May 9, 2008)

Beastman said:
			
		

> Interesting article, but if the whole book has that format, I guess there is a lots of white space if they don't wnat to break the stat-blocks.




white space is much better than a divided statblock...



			
				Beastman said:
			
		

> Anyone noticed this: Minions do a fixed amount of damage? Is this true for all minions or just orc minions?




Yes they do. The idea seems to be following: when you are surrounded by 5 orcs, the DM throws 5 d20 and multiplies it with the damage number.

The reasoning: with 102 orcs the total damage will not vary a lot around the arithmetic middle. You save a lot of time.

also: attack bonus of minions seems generally higher than the average monster's to hit bonus, but the average damage is rather lower than than that of an average axefighter with high strength... 

for me the most intersting article in the near futre will be the one covering minions, because those two orc minions seem rather strange statwise...


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 9, 2008)

Gunpowder said:
			
		

> So drive him into the negative enough and the 10 hit points wont be enough to bring him to positive so the second attack never occurs due to death.




My point is that I'm sure we've seen information that states that monsters don't have negative hit points.

They die at 0hp. 

They can't recover hp when they are dead.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (May 9, 2008)

Minions need to have a relatively high attack bonus, otherwise they won't do anything.

They still need to be threatening, even if they do go down easily. I'd rather face monsters that hit often, for not much, but die easily than any other combination - it means that they don't just flail around uselessly getting killed off, but neither do they run the risk of dominating the damage output.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 9, 2008)

Beastman said:
			
		

> Interesting article, but if the whole book has that format, I guess there is a lots of white space if they don't wnat to break the stat-blocks.
> 
> Anyone noticed this: Minions do a fixed amount of damage? Is this true for all minions or just orc minions?



It seems true for all Minions. One of the primary reasons seems to be usability - since 4 Minion equal approximately one Monster of their level in XP and challenge, having to roll both attack and damage would take too much time.


----------



## Heselbine (May 9, 2008)

Minions have got to be one of the best features of the new game.

Last Tuesday I ran a pretty viable 'Night of the Living Dead' scenario - wave after wave of zombie minions attacking the adventurers in an inn. Marvellous. Against 1st level characters. All of whom survived (just).

Plus, attacks that also push are great fun. I had two Enraged Zombies attacking the halfling paladin. The first one punched him halfway across the room. The second one followed up and slammed him into the wall. Highly entertaining and a very memorable encounter.

For a similar reason, the new 'turn undead' is excellent.

4th edition, in my humble opinion, is a significantly better game.


----------



## Cirex (May 9, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> My point is that I'm sure we've seen information that states that monsters don't have negative hit points.
> 
> They die at 0hp.
> 
> They can't recover hp when they are dead.




That would make sense. That extra attack is the final attempt they got to kill the enemy with their last breath. After that, they are gone.

We need to see the full pack of rules, but I my interpretation of the situation is as yours for now.


----------



## Gunpowder (May 9, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> My point is that I'm sure we've seen information that states that monsters don't have negative hit points.
> 
> They die at 0hp.
> 
> They can't recover hp when they are dead.




Well usually yes, but three things. 
1. the Death Strike ability is already an exception based ability allowing the orcs to make an attack after they are dead, so any other riders on a regular melee attack should be kosher. Since it is already breaking the general rule of no actions after dead. 
2. Didn't the article talking about no negative hit points for monsters also say that the DM overrides that when he wants to? Personally, I find the mental image of an orc wading through a battle with spears, arrows and other what-not sticking out of him refusing to go down, entertaining enough to grant him negative hit points. 
3. You could qualify the Death Strike ability as a immediate interrupt, so it would go off before the lethal blow is struck giving the Bloodrager a 10 HP booster, after which the blow could kill him if it deals enough damage. 

I guess it really comes down to how you want the Bloodrager to play out.


----------



## Xanaqui (May 9, 2008)

UngeheuerLich said:
			
		

> white space is much better than a divided statblock...



Interesting; I'd prefer less whitespace and divided statblocks (or, alternatively, fill the whitespace with pictures or something). It's not like I'll use the statblock directly from the book much of the time.

My other comment is that I prefer paragraphical fluff to having most of it in the Lore section.

Neither is going to impact the likelihood of my purchasing this book, though.


----------



## LowSpine (May 9, 2008)

Primal said:
			
		

> Has anyone posted that 'ORC AXEBERSERKER LICH' yet?
> 
> His powers could include following abilities:
> 
> ...




I've got one:

SURVIVOR.

 SLIPPERY SWINE 
'The Survivor ducks and weaves out of the way causing your attack to miss endangering those around him.'

(Reaction - At Will - Trigger - When attacked adjacent to any other target friend or foe): 
If the Survivor is next to a friend or foe when attacked that attack automatically targets any other target than the survivor. The Survivor may select to true target.


 FEIGN DEATH 
'Just when you thought the Survivor was dead he runs off like a coward.'

(Reaction - Daily - Trigger - When brought to 0 hit points) 
The first time that day that the survivor is taken to 0 hitpoints the survivor gets a healing surge. The survivor may seem dead until such time as he decides to move/run away. The Survivor may be finished off with a coup-de-gras

 BLOCK PURSUIT
'The survivor runs off pulling things in your path.'

(At-Will, Int vs Reflex)
The Survivor can pull over shelves, barrels, boxes or even people. Inanimate objects are automatically pulled over. When any pursuer reaches the obstacle the pursuer's Reflex defence is attacked.
Hit: The pursuer falls prone and takes 1d6+Int.
Miss: The pursuer negotiates the obstacle but doing so reduces his movement by 1 that turn.

 RUN LIKE BUGGERY
'The Survivor just wants to get out of there.'

(At-Will)
If the Survivor does nothing during his turn other than move he moves 2 extra squares that turn.

 DUMB LUCK
'The Survivor barges his way between the heroes and leaps through the window, no idea what lays below, just to get away.'

(Encounter - Standard)
The Survivor gains 50hp? temporary hit points for that turn. Any damage suffered during that turn are taken away from these hit points first. The Hitpoints go away at the end of the Survivor's turn.

SKILLS: 
The Survivor has excellent acrobatic and athletic skills. 
Diplomacy, Bluff, etc 
- The Survivor can divert blame to others. Accusations and social mud slip off him like water off a duck's arse. If anyone tries to accuse him of anything or takes him to court etc, he gets a bonus to divert the blame to an innocent or even the accuser. He has one of those faces that people trust, he always says the right things, even though he might have a stinking rotten core.
- He is excellent at getting the credit for other people's actions. You save a town from doom and he'll be the one getting the medal.

(We've all met people like this. They are usually managers or civil servants.)


----------



## Wolfspider (May 9, 2008)

"Orc minions have no particular sense of honor and simply swarm around a foe and hack it to death...."

With clubs.


----------



## Wolfspider (May 9, 2008)

Nice to see a pdf excerpt from the Monster Manual.

That means a pdf exists.

Sell it to me, baby.  You know you want to.


----------



## Pinotage (May 9, 2008)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> Nice to see a pdf excerpt from the Monster Manual.
> 
> That means a pdf exists.
> 
> Sell it to me, baby.  You know you want to.




Hadn't thought about that. Neat! I want the pdf too! Don't care about the books - sell me the pdf!

Pinotage


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (May 9, 2008)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> "Orc minions have no particular sense of honor and simply swarm around a foe and hack it to death...."
> 
> With clubs.




Maybe the clubs have spiky bits in them?

After all, they'ze not proper Orks unless they've got proper ChaosDeathSpikyBitz on them, are they?


----------



## Wormwood (May 9, 2008)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> After all, they'ze not proper Orks unless they've got proper ChaosDeathSpikyBitz on them, are they?



Not in _my _ game they ain't.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 9, 2008)

> Orc Eye of Gruumsh  Level 5 Controller (Leader)
> Medium natural humanoid   XP 200
> Initiative +6  Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
> Wrath of Gruumsh aura 10; orcs in the aura can use death strike
> ...




Is the Eye of Gruumsh's initiative correct?  I'm getting +2 (Dexterity) plus +2 (Level) for +4.  Where is the +6 coming from?


----------



## malraux (May 9, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> My point is that I'm sure we've seen information that states that monsters don't have negative hit points.
> 
> They die at 0hp.
> 
> They can't recover hp when they are dead.



My reading of the article in question was that the dead at 0hp referred to the need not to worry about the stabilization checks.  It doesn't mean that they always die at 0, just that they always bleed out.  For these guys though, its not a stabilization check that's bringing them back, but a special ability.  I'd sure as heck let these creatures fight on.


----------



## jaelis (May 9, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Is the Eye of Gruumsh's initiative correct?  I'm getting +2 (Dexterity) plus +2 (Level) for +4.  Where is the +6 coming from?



I think that monster stats and bonuses can be adjusted as desired.  Most of the early preview monsters didn't use Init = Dex + level/2 either.


----------



## malraux (May 9, 2008)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> Nice to see a pdf excerpt from the Monster Manual.
> 
> That means a pdf exists.
> 
> Sell it to me, baby.  You know you want to.



Assuming they have the book in any sort of electronic format, making a pdf is rather simple.


----------



## malraux (May 9, 2008)

Xanaqui said:
			
		

> Interesting; I'd prefer less whitespace and divided statblocks (or, alternatively, fill the whitespace with pictures or something). It's not like I'll use the statblock directly from the book much of the time.



I think the hope for this edition is to make the stuff in the MM useful enough as it so that you can use it directly from the book.


----------



## Wolfspider (May 9, 2008)

malraux said:
			
		

> Assuming they have the book in any sort of electronic format, making a pdf is rather simple.




Yeah, I know.  It just makes me quiver with excitement to see a pdf version of one of the new books.

Mmmmm...pdf.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (May 9, 2008)

malraux said:
			
		

> My reading of the article in question was that the dead at 0hp referred to the need not to worry about the stabilization checks.




Allowing monsters to be stabilized, resuscitated, and interrogated implies an ugly backstory.


----------



## A'koss (May 9, 2008)

Regarding the Bloodrager Death Blow, the power says it only allows a basic melee attack. Is the "Blood for Blood" power considered rolled into a basic attack?


----------



## Dausuul (May 9, 2008)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> "Orc minions have no particular sense of honor and simply swarm around a foe and hack it to death...."
> 
> With clubs.




Sometimes I think about going into third-party publishing and putting out the Big Book o' Fluff, which would consist of coherent, well-written fluff for the 4E Core books that actually makes sense for the crunch it's describing.

Ah well.  Maybe it ought to be some kind of wiki project.


----------



## hong (May 9, 2008)

Hacking someone to death with a club makes exactly as much sense as cutting out someone's heart with a spoon.


----------



## Wormwood (May 9, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> Ah well.  Maybe it ought to be some kind of wiki project.



[Citation needed]


----------



## LowSpine (May 9, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Hacking someone to death with a club makes exactly as much sense as cutting out someone's heart with a spoon.




Unless it is a sharp club. Oh, hang on, that's an axe.


----------



## TerraDave (May 9, 2008)

Finally, 4E gives us orcs worth running from.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 9, 2008)

jaelis said:
			
		

> I think that monster stats and bonuses can be adjusted as desired.  Most of the early preview monsters didn't use Init = Dex + level/2 either.




Really?  Huh, I must not have been paying close attention then.

The reason I ask is because skills seem to be the only thing that's not divorced from monster ability scores.

Generally, I'm cool with exception-based design (actually, I like it a lot).  However, if the ability scores are used for _nothing_, is it even necessary to include them?  I know they're there for untrained skills, but frankly I think it's confusing and something of an unnecessary throwback.


----------



## chaotix42 (May 9, 2008)

If Wounded Retaliation is an "immediate reaction," does that mean the orc can only use it once a round? Or am I still thinking too much in 3.5-speak?


----------



## hong (May 9, 2008)

LowSpine said:
			
		

> Unless it is a sharp club. Oh, hang on, that's an axe.



 Don't make me call off Christmas.


----------



## ethandrul (May 9, 2008)

WHo would have thought that Orc minions would be so well informed. 
It seems that more orcs turn to their drudge orcs for news then any other type of minion.
Because orcish "Drudge Reports" often have news before anyone else- though they are often criticized for itheir conservative (by orcish standards) view points, and questionable accuracy.


----------



## Lizard (May 9, 2008)

Sigh.

I am trying to overcome grognardism, on the grounds that when I see the same behavior in others, it irks me, and since hypocrisy is the only sin left in our society, I ought to try to avoid it. So I read the "why we did it" bit for the orc article (and tried not to scream at the authors "You DID notice MMIV ended up on everyone's 'worst 3x book' lists, right?"), and endeavored to keep an open mind.

Sigh again.

First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.

Second...9th level minions have 1 hit point? (Addendum: I prefer '1 hit point' to 'die when they are hit'. It reduces a lot of rules problems.) 

Third...fixed damage for minions? Kind of boring, but, meh. I can live with it. I hope there's rules for calculating 'fixed' damage from any weapon, so it's easy to give orc warriors longswords or halberds if you want to.

Fourth...minions have no skills? None? Well, it does explain the orc lifestyle.

Fifth...why does the Drudge have better armor than the raider? (+4 over reflex vs. +3) You'd think the more elite an orc was, the better armor he'd have. Seems to fit.

Sixth...an orc hospital must consist of a bag of rats. "Whack rat till feel better."

Seventh...let's say, Ghu forbid, I *do* want to make my own orcs. I know that's "tedious and dull" and no sane DM wants to actually tinker with worldbuilding, but bear me out. Nothing in the article says "This is what a generic orc is". There's no clear indicator which powers are "orc powers" all orcs get, and which are pseudo-class powers. (To judge by the drudge, there's nothing which ALL orcs get by default.) There's not even a basic racial profile to use if I want to build an Orc Fighter from scratch. Do I staple levels onto the minion? The raider? I want to make a first level orc warlord who has gathered some drudges into a bandit gang. How?

Eighth...at least they're chaotic evil. Alignments aren't totally dead.

What it boils down to is, I don't see what this system gives me that "Humanoid+levels" didn't. It seems to be more restrictive and more confusing, and if I want to mix "Pre gen" orcs with "custom" orcs, I need, basically, two sets of rules to do it, the "monster" rules and the "pc" rules. That's more retro than I like.

Can someone elaborate the advantages for me? What do you see that's superior about this, other than the fact it basically provides you with a "Box of orcs" you can pick pieces out of, if you happen to like the pieces you've been given?


----------



## Lizard (May 9, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Is the Eye of Gruumsh's initiative correct?  I'm getting +2 (Dexterity) plus +2 (Level) for +4.  Where is the +6 coming from?




The invisible magic feats that monsters were built with (as per Mike Mearls) but which aren't actually called out in the text anywhere, probably.

Basically, instead of a structured system where monsters get feats and you can see where all the numbers come from, 4e is based on a "They've got what they've got" design system, so if an orc needs a higher initiative, poof, he's got a higher initiative.

Some people evidently consider this a good thing. Certainly, it's simpler. I suppose it's no different than "Special ability: Fast acting. The orc has a +2 racial modifier to initiative."


----------



## Wormwood (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> What do you see that's superior about this, other than the fact it basically provides you with a "Box of orcs" you can pick pieces out of, if you happen to like the pieces you've been given?



Asked and answered, I'd say.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> The invisible magic feats that monsters were built with (as per Mike Mearls) but which aren't actually called out in the text anywhere, probably.
> 
> Basically, instead of a structured system where monsters get feats and you can see where all the numbers come from, 4e is based on a "They've got what they've got" design system, so if an orc needs a higher initiative, poof, he's got a higher initiative.
> 
> Some people evidently consider this a good thing. Certainly, it's simpler. I suppose it's no different than "Special ability: Fast acting. The orc has a +2 racial modifier to initiative."




Personally, I think it's a mistake.  The other orcs operate on the ability mod + 1/2 level for initiative.

There is a structured system, but there is also variance within that system.  Which is fine; two monsters of equal CR were not necessarily of equal difficulty in 3.x.  I see no reason why they'd have to be under this system as well.


----------



## Evilhalfling (May 9, 2008)

hmm someone should put up a preferrence poll about 4e monsters from the excerpts. 

we have officially seen the Phane, angels and those underdark things with the arm blades. 
The orcs look lovely, with the possible exception of the bloodrager being unkillable. 



> 3. You could qualify the Death Strike ability as a immediate interrupt, so it would go off before the lethal blow is struck giving the Bloodrager a 10 HP booster, after which the blow could kill him if it deals enough damage.




no this creates time pardox, if the death strike premtivley kills the person who killed the orc.


----------



## Lizard (May 9, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Personally, I think it's a mistake.  The other orcs operate on the ability mod + 1/2 level for initiative.
> 
> There is a structured system, but there is also variance within that system.  Which is fine; two monsters of equal CR were not necessarily of equal difficulty in 3.x.  I see no reason why they'd have to be under this system as well.




They don't. But I like seeing where the numbers come from; it makes it easier to change things and know what you're doing. Even if it's an arbitrary +2 for balance/fun, I'd like it called out somewhere instead of "hidden" in the stat block.


----------



## hong (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Sigh.
> 
> I am trying to overcome grognardism, on the grounds that when I see the same behavior in others, it irks me, and since hypocrisy is the only sin left in our society, I ought to try to avoid it. So I read the "why we did it" bit for the orc article (and tried not to scream at the authors "You DID notice MMIV ended up on everyone's 'worst 3x book' lists, right?"), and endeavored to keep an open mind.
> 
> ...




? There's nothing stopping you fighting orcs at 1st level. Just like there's nothing stopping 1st level PCs in 3E fighting bugbears and ogres, despite these being CR 2 and 3.



> Second...9th level minions have 1 hit point? (Addendum: I prefer '1 hit point' to 'die when they are hit'. It reduces a lot of rules problems.)




The idea is basically that they die when hit, thus obviating the need to track hit points for a big mob of creatures. I did something similar the last 3E game I ran. The 11th level party were fighting wights, which were no real challenge despite draining attacks because of crappy BAB. I ruled that any hit dealing 10+ damage was an instant kill. A hit dealing < 10 dmg resulted in a "wounded" wight, and I put a die next to it to indicate its status. Any further hit on a wounded creature was also an instant kill.



> Fourth...minions have no skills? None? Well, it does explain the orc lifestyle.




They have all skills at (lvl/2) + (stat bonus/2). They just happen not to have any _trained_ skills.



> Fifth...why does the Drudge have better armor than the raider? (+4 over reflex vs. +3) You'd think the more elite an orc was, the better armor he'd have. Seems to fit.




For the same reason 10th level rangers will often have worse (base) armour than 2nd level fighters.


----------



## hong (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> They don't. But I like seeing where the numbers come from; it makes it easier to change things and know what you're doing. Even if it's an arbitrary +2 for balance/fun, I'd like it called out somewhere instead of "hidden" in the stat block.



 The whole point is to avoid useless pedantry over whether a given monster is missing a +1 here or -2 there.


----------



## Deadstop (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.




Yeah, that surprised (and kinda disappointed) me too. The level curve seems a lot shallower in 4e; both monsters and spells are spread out a lot more, and stuff that used to be relatively low level is pushed higher up on the food chain.

Still, with the two weakest orc types being minions, it can't be that hard to de-level them. Mainly you'd want to drop their inherent attack bonus and defenses to reasonable levels (and the MM or DMG should contain info on the "correct" range of numbers for a given level and role).



> Seventh...let's say, Ghu forbid, I *do* want to make my own orcs. I know that's "tedious and dull" and no sane DM wants to actually tinker with worldbuilding, but bear me out. Nothing in the article says "This is what a generic orc is". There's no clear indicator which powers are "orc powers" all orcs get, and which are pseudo-class powers. (To judge by the drudge, there's nothing which ALL orcs get by default.) There's not even a basic racial profile to use if I want to build an Orc Fighter from scratch. Do I staple levels onto the minion? The raider? I want to make a first level orc warlord who has gathered some drudges into a bandit gang. How?




The extra charging speed and the Warrior's Surge (for any orc that's not a minion) seem to be the inherently orcish abilities. 

The templates excerpt indicated that there would be "class templates" so that one could quickly add class features/powers to a monster. It wouldn't exactly make a 1st level orc warlord as such, but it would let you make a warlord-y orc.

Also, the orc is almost certainly one of the monster races with a basic PC writeup in the back of the MM, so you could probably create an actual 1st level orc warlord if you want.


Deadstop


----------



## Dausuul (May 9, 2008)

I just realized the one thing that was missing from the orc preview.  There needs to be an Orc Overseer, whose main special ability is called "Where There's A Whip, There's A Way."


----------



## Stalker0 (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.




The way 4e encounter design works, you can still fight orcs at 1st level. If a minion is 4th level, it doesn't mean its out of a 1st level parties league. It just means that the xp value for that creature is higher. In 4e, you add all the xp for each monster you place in the encounter, and that totaled should be close to the recommened amount (I believe at 1st level its 100 xp per party member, but I cannot remember for sure).

So for example you wouldn't throw as many orc minions at a 1st level party as you would kobold minions, but you can still use them. Also, level is an indicator of general defenses and such. A 10th level minion might die in 1 hit, but that hit is a lot harder to come by (higher AC and defenses). You want to avoid a huge disparity in levels normally, just because the high defenses mean your party will whiff a lot.

From personal experience, I ran the pregens against gnolls as well as kobolds (and gnolls are much higher). Trust me, a 1st level party can take on a few higher level monsters.


----------



## D.Shaffer (May 9, 2008)

The actual level seems to be a moot point anyways, for the most part.  You're supposed to build an encounter based around the XP of the creature as I understand it, in which case you'd ignore the creature level to begin with.


----------



## jaelis (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Sixth...an orc hospital must consist of a bag of rats. "Whack rat till feel better."



We know that monsters and NPCs have healing surges, they just can't generally use them during combat.  So you don't need the rats, just wait until you've killed all the pesky adventurers and then healing surge up.

And remember that you really do need to stop thinking of hit points as physical damage, and consider them more as getting worn down.


----------



## ThirdWizard (May 9, 2008)

chaotix42 said:
			
		

> If Wounded Retaliation is an "immediate reaction," does that mean the orc can only use it once a round? Or am I still thinking too much in 3.5-speak?




Once every creature's turn. Once on the paladin's turn. Once on the ranger's turn. And so forth.


----------



## Stormtalon (May 9, 2008)

Deadstop said:
			
		

> Yeah, that surprised (and kinda disappointed) me too. The level curve seems a lot shallower in 4e; both monsters and spells are spread out a lot more, and stuff that used to be relatively low level is pushed higher up on the food chain.
> 
> Still, with the two weakest orc types being minions, it can't be that hard to de-level them. Mainly you'd want to drop their inherent attack bonus and defenses to reasonable levels (and the MM or DMG should contain info on the "correct" range of numbers for a given level and role).




Heck, since those level 4 minions (Orc Drudge) are only worth 44xp each, 12 of them would be a perfect match for 5 level 1 characters.  Sure, they'd go down fast but they stand a decent chance of doing a good bit of damage before they're done.  Add in a single of the lower-level orcs to provide a bigger threat and that'll make 'em sweat while not overpowering them.


----------



## Lacyon (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.




Can't argue with you here. Guess we'll have to fight kobolds and goblins instead.



			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> Second...9th level minions have 1 hit point? (Addendum: I prefer '1 hit point' to 'die when they are hit'. It reduces a lot of rules problems.)




I suspect the actual hit points of minions are pretty flexible. _Most_ of the time it's not even supposed to matter.



			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> Third...fixed damage for minions? Kind of boring, but, meh. I can live with it. I hope there's rules for calculating 'fixed' damage from any weapon, so it's easy to give orc warriors longswords or halberds if you want to.




Since minions are replacing normal monsters at a 4:1 ratio, they get to roll a lot of attacks - and thus a lot of chances to crit. Making the damage fixed eliminates that problem, and also means the DM only rolls only twice as many dice (+3x the attacks, -1x the damages) as using normal monsters, instead of 4x the dice.



			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> Fourth...minions have no skills? None? Well, it does explain the orc lifestyle.




These guys were born for dying.



			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> Fifth...why does the Drudge have better armor than the raider? (+4 over reflex vs. +3) You'd think the more elite an orc was, the better armor he'd have. Seems to fit.




The raider's armor is more comfortable.



			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> Sixth...an orc hospital must consist of a bag of rats. "Whack rat till feel better."




NPCs have healing surges, so out of combat they don't need hospitals anyway.



			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> Seventh...let's say, Ghu forbid, I *do* want to make my own orcs. I know that's "tedious and dull" and no sane DM wants to actually tinker with worldbuilding, but bear me out. Nothing in the article says "This is what a generic orc is". There's no clear indicator which powers are "orc powers" all orcs get, and which are pseudo-class powers. (To judge by the drudge, there's nothing which ALL orcs get by default.) There's not even a basic racial profile to use if I want to build an Orc Fighter from scratch. Do I staple levels onto the minion? The raider? I want to make a first level orc warlord who has gathered some drudges into a bandit gang. How?




It's pretty clear to me that the "orc power" is Warrior's Surge - you even noted this above, so I'm surprised you're having trouble with it now. The only orcs that don't have Warrior's Surge are the 1-hp minions - who couldn't get any use out of it anyway, so why waste the ink writing it in? They also get +movement while charging.

Likewise, the "kobold power" is Shifty, the "gnoll power" is Pack Attack, the "goblin power" is Goblin Tactics, the "hobgoblin power" is Hobgoblin Resilience, etc.

The basic racial profile is likely in the appendix for creating PCs, but if its not you make a first-level orc warlord by making a warlord, giving it +2 str and con (consistently high Orc stats), and giving it Warrior's Surge, along with a movement bonus when charging.



			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> What it boils down to is, I don't see what this system gives me that "Humanoid+levels" didn't. It seems to be more restrictive and more confusing, and if I want to mix "Pre gen" orcs with "custom" orcs, I need, basically, two sets of rules to do it, the "monster" rules and the "pc" rules. That's more retro than I like.
> 
> Can someone elaborate the advantages for me? What do you see that's superior about this, other than the fact it basically provides you with a "Box of orcs" you can pick pieces out of, if you happen to like the pieces you've been given?




The only thing this system will ever give you that "humanoid + levels" didn't is quick creation (while remaining consistent with resulting challenge level). For some of us, that alone is cause for celebration.


----------



## Lizard (May 9, 2008)

Deadstop said:
			
		

> Also, the orc is almost certainly one of the monster races with a basic PC writeup in the back of the MM, so you could probably create an actual 1st level orc warlord if you want.
> 
> 
> Deadstop




Ah, I assumed the 'racial writeup' would be in the race article. That does help.


----------



## Peter LaCara (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.




Two orc raiders and a handful of drudges. First level encounter for ya.



> Second...9th level minions have 1 hit point? (Addendum: I prefer '1 hit point' to 'die when they are hit'. It reduces a lot of rules problems.)




Sure. Hit points are a measure of your plot immunity. Minions have no plot immunity. I don't see why that's such a big deal.



> Third...fixed damage for minions? Kind of boring, but, meh. I can live with it. I hope there's rules for calculating 'fixed' damage from any weapon, so it's easy to give orc warriors longswords or halberds if you want to.




Fixed damage for minions does two things: 

1) It speeds up play dramatically when dealing with a horde.

2) It fixes the problems of minions critting, since a crit is meaningless to someone who does fixed damage.

As for giving longswords to the warriors, that's as simple as increasing their hit bonus by 1 and reduce their damage by 1, or giving them reach 2 if they have halberds. Honestly, you're a big boy. You don't need WotC to hold your hand and tell you how to do this stuff. That took me less time to think of it than it took me to type it out.



> Fourth...minions have no skills? None? Well, it does explain the orc lifestyle.
> 
> Fifth...why does the Drudge have better armor than the raider? (+4 over reflex vs. +3) You'd think the more elite an orc was, the better armor he'd have. Seems to fit.
> 
> Sixth...an orc hospital must consist of a bag of rats. "Whack rat till feel better."




This is so stupid, I barely know why I'm addressing this, but once again, hit points are your plot immunity, not your actual injuries.



> Seventh...let's say, Ghu forbid, I *do* want to make my own orcs. I know that's "tedious and dull" and no sane DM wants to actually tinker with worldbuilding, but bear me out. Nothing in the article says "This is what a generic orc is". There's no clear indicator which powers are "orc powers" all orcs get, and which are pseudo-class powers. (To judge by the drudge, there's nothing which ALL orcs get by default.) There's not even a basic racial profile to use if I want to build an Orc Fighter from scratch. Do I staple levels onto the minion? The raider? I want to make a first level orc warlord who has gathered some drudges into a bandit gang. How?




You build a new monster from scratch and use the orc racial stuff from their PC race entry in the appendix of the book. Which, I can already tell you what it's probably going to consist of: +2 speed on a charge, and they get Warrior's Surge as an encounter power, since every single orc has both of those things (the minions don't need to have Warrior's Surge listed since they're never bloodied).

Why do you need a template to start with and just staple levels onto? Why can't you start from scratch. Hell, that seems _more_ fun to me than applying templates and levels and stuff. 



> Eighth...at least they're chaotic evil. Alignments aren't totally dead.
> 
> What it boils down to is, I don't see what this system gives me that "Humanoid+levels" didn't. It seems to be more restrictive and more confusing, and if I want to mix "Pre gen" orcs with "custom" orcs, I need, basically, two sets of rules to do it, the "monster" rules and the "pc" rules. That's more retro than I like.
> 
> Can someone elaborate the advantages for me? What do you see that's superior about this, other than the fact it basically provides you with a "Box of orcs" you can pick pieces out of, if you happen to like the pieces you've been given?




You get to the same place as you would with "humanoid+levels," but faster and with less work. I mean, seriously, this isn't hard. If I had access to the right numbers (something they told us we will have), I could write up an orc shaman in like, 5 minutes tops. I don't understand how that could _not_ make someone excited.


----------



## jaldaen (May 9, 2008)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Once every creature's turn. Once on the paladin's turn. Once on the ranger's turn. And so forth.




According to the Scalegloom Rules Appendix:

Interrupts and reactions are immediate actions. Specific powers
define the trigger for these actions. You can take *only one
immediate action per round*, and you can't take an immediate
action on your turn.

I think you are confusing opportunity attacks with immediate actions... you can take 1 OA/turn, but only 1 IA/round.


----------



## Wormwood (May 9, 2008)

jaldaen said:
			
		

> *You only get one immediate action per round*; presumably, they reset on your action.



Makes sense. Thanks!


----------



## Knight Otu (May 9, 2008)

Level 1 Encounter (538 XP)
2 orc drudges
1 orc warrior
1 orc raider
1 orc eye of Gruumsh

Level 1 Encounter (500 XP)
5 orc warriors

Level 1 Encounter (519 XP)
1 orc drudge
1 orc warrior
1 orc berserker
1 orc eye of Gruumsh

Those should all be valid 1st level encounters, though they may be tough.

As for hacking with clubs - obviously, the club design is exception-based.


----------



## Lizard (May 9, 2008)

Lacyon said:
			
		

> I suspect the actual hit points of minions are pretty flexible. _Most_ of the time it's not even supposed to matter.




If one assumes minions will only ever fight level-appropriate PCs whose damage output is greater than their presumed hit points, yeah. 



> It's pretty clear to me that the "orc power" is Warrior's Surge - you even noted this above, so I'm surprised you're having trouble with it now. The only orcs that don't have Warrior's Surge are the 1-hp minions - who couldn't get any use out of it anyway, so why waste the ink writing it in? They also get +movement while charging.




I looked for a power in all entries, and couldn't find one which was universal. If it's Warrior's Surge, your logic makes sense, but again, why not call this out so it's obvious?

It seems that there's an implicit "Don't worry about how it all works" attitude in the 4e rules. On the one hand, this makes design easy -- pick some random numbers that are 'close to' the numbers in the book. On the other hand, if you don't understand where those numbers came from, it's harder to see the consequences of changing them or know if you've 'cascaded' the values through properly.


----------



## Alkiera (May 9, 2008)

Lizard,

(1&7)You can fight orcs at first level just fine... use the 4th lvl drudge minions(44xp each, quite a few in 500 xp), maybe 2-3 skirmishers, etc.  PCs can fight enemies above their level with some success.   It'll be tough, but doable.  I wouldn't include the controller/leader types until they've got a few levels, though.

(1.b)Personally, I think the intention is that PCs fight goblins or kobolds at first level, though, and that the orcs would be a little more advanced.  The 3.x MM even supports this, as being CR 1/2, a level one party should only face a few pairs of orcs a day before being 'spent'.  Any group having a leader would be a 'squad' of 11-20 warriors, 2 3rd-level sergeants, and a 3rd-6th level leader.  Toss 4 barbarian levels onto an orc, and it's gonna do bad things to a first level (3.x) party, especially if he's not alone or isn't the first encounter of the day.

(4)Drudges have no skills.. that's why they're drudges, and not philosophers. 8) I would guess minions in general won't have trained skills.  If they get into a skill vs skill task (somehow) just use the adjusted stat mods at the bottom.  Similar with 1 hp and fixed damage.  They're not expected to live long, stats are simplified a bit from other orcs, even.

(5) The Drudge has hide armor, the raider leather.  Why?  Dunno, just the way it is.  Maybe the raiders feel that hide armor is too restrictive of their throwing arms.  Actually, almost all the orcs have leather armor.  Only the drudge has hide, and the chieftan has chainmail.  Every other orc is wearing leather armor.

(6) Hitpoints aren't physical damage.  A bloodied orc doesn't need a hospital, he needs a nap, maybe a roll of gauze.  You don't need a hospital until hp reach 0 or less.

(7) They already gave us rules for adjusting levels of monsters.  +/- 1 atk/defense per level you want to go, within 5 levels.  Heck, I think you could probably throw 4ish drudges and the lvl 4 berzerker at a level 1 party as is, with no adjustments.  Level matter both more and less than in 3.x... it affects more of the PC's stats, but level X players no longer find a level X+4 enemy to be completely insurmountable.

Just some food for thought.


----------



## hong (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> I looked for a power in all entries, and couldn't find one which was universal. If it's Warrior's Surge, your logic makes sense, but again, why not call this out so it's obvious?




You found the answer. Who cares how you found it?



> It seems that there's an implicit "Don't worry about how it all works" attitude in the 4e rules. On the one hand, this makes design easy -- pick some random numbers that are 'close to' the numbers in the book. On the other hand, if you don't understand where those numbers came from, it's harder to see the consequences of changing them or know if you've 'cascaded' the values through properly.




Which is why the prevalence of cascading is much lessened compared to 3E.


----------



## Mort_Q (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> On the other hand, if you don't understand where those numbers came from, it's harder to see the consequences of changing them or know if you've 'cascaded' the values through properly.




One would hope that there is a chapter or section devoted to this elsewhere in the 4e MM.


----------



## ThirdWizard (May 9, 2008)

jaldaen said:
			
		

> I think you are confusing opportunity attacks with immediate actions... you can take 1 OA/turn, but only 1 IA/round.




Actually I was confusing turns and rounds!


----------



## Peter LaCara (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> If one assumes minions will only ever fight level-appropriate PCs whose damage output is greater than their presumed hit points, yeah.
> 
> 
> 
> I looked for a power in all entries, and couldn't find one which was universal. If it's Warrior's Surge, your logic makes sense, but again, why not call this out so it's obvious?




Because it's _obvious_. Why waste the space?



> It seems that there's an implicit "Don't worry about how it all works" attitude in the 4e rules. On the one hand, this makes design easy -- pick some random numbers that are 'close to' the numbers in the book. On the other hand, if you don't understand where those numbers came from, it's harder to see the consequences of changing them or know if you've 'cascaded' the values through properly.




The values don't have to cascade anymore. The upshot of just picking numbers from the book is that you don't have to worry about all that, and you can feel free to fiddle with things without unbalancing them.


----------



## Alkiera (May 9, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> I just realized the one thing that was missing from the orc preview.  There needs to be an Orc Overseer, whose main special ability is called "Where There's A Whip, There's A Way."




<derail>
I really wanted to like Burning Wheel, but I couldn't get my players into it.  They like some of the mechanics, but can't seem to get into the goal-based RP mindset... and one of my players hates the 3-panel combat format.  Without them actually pushing plot ideas, I have nothing to run, as I'm not all that creative.  With D&D I mostly run published adventures.
</derail>

More on topic, I did note the lack of leadership among orcs.  The two sorta-Leaders were multi-classed into it from Brute or Controller.  Fitting, I suppose, for Chaotic creatures.


----------



## Lizard (May 9, 2008)

Alkiera said:
			
		

> Lizard,
> 
> (1&7)You can fight orcs at first level just fine... use the 4th lvl drudge minions(44xp each, quite a few in 500 xp), maybe 2-3 skirmishers, etc.  PCs can fight enemies above their level with some success.   It'll be tough, but doable.  I wouldn't include the controller/leader types until they've got a few levels, though.




Fair enough, I'm still thinking monster level==opponent level. Doing it by XP is interesting.



> (6) Hitpoints aren't physical damage.  A bloodied orc doesn't need a hospital, he needs a nap, maybe a roll of gauze.  You don't need a hospital until hp reach 0 or less.




And since monsters die at 0HP without DM fiat, not even then. I guess this is why you see few Orc hospitals. Hmm. I guess the adventure "Raid On Orc General" wasn't what I thought it was...

As a side note, the bloodrager is one nasty bastich, I will give them that.


----------



## keterys (May 9, 2008)

Leader is a subrole/tag that adds on to one of the main monster roles - I don't think they have Leader on its own.


----------



## Lacyon (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> If one assumes minions will only ever fight level-appropriate PCs whose damage output is greater than their presumed hit points, yeah.




That's the purpose of minions.

If they're way overlevelled, they're already defended by their higher defense scores, and they're almost certainly hitting too often, and as a result doing more damage than they should. If you want them not to die in one hit, replace them with something closer to the right level.

If they're only a bit overlevelled, their hp total would still be such that a single hit could kill them, and there's only so much point to making the PCs roll against it (seriously, IIRC, none of the first-level pregens does less than 5 damage on an average hit. Does it matter much if the orc minion has 4 HP instead of 1?).

If they're underlevelled, their hp matters even less.



			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> I looked for a power in all entries, and couldn't find one which was universal. If it's Warrior's Surge, your logic makes sense, but again, why not call this out so it's obvious?




They almost certainly will in the appendix where "monster as PC stats" are supposedly located.



			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> It seems that there's an implicit "Don't worry about how it all works" attitude in the 4e rules. On the one hand, this makes design easy -- pick some random numbers that are 'close to' the numbers in the book. On the other hand, if you don't understand where those numbers came from, it's harder to see the consequences of changing them or know if you've 'cascaded' the values through properly.




It's _easier_ to see the _gameplay_ consequences of changing numbers, because your changes are explicity put in the context of making a level X challenge instead of adding class features and hit dice to monsters and recalculating every derived value from that.

I'm not sure why it's necessary to 'cascade' the values properly. I used to think it was a good idea, but I've since come to the conclusion that it's usually a waste of my time. I don't typically end up with a better-balanced monster at the end, and I also don't tend to have players who make me show my work when a monster surprises them by being better or worse at something than it "should" be.

Give me a simpler system that's designed primarily around being able to accurately judge how tough of a fight the monster represents any day.


----------



## keterys (May 9, 2008)

One important thing to realize about using higher level monsters is that they have higher defenses and attacks. So, if you're using an orc warrior instead of a kobold skirmisher, it'll hit your defender easier and be harder to hit.

When it does get hit, it'll definitely go down in one shot though, whereas the skirmisher takes a couple.

Personally, I'm finding that players are missing a lot isn't terribly satisfying, so I'd only up the level so far, especially for certain roles (soldier, I'm looking at you!)


----------



## hong (May 9, 2008)

Overlevelled minions are playing GURPS in D&D!


----------



## LostInTheMists (May 9, 2008)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> As for hacking with clubs - obviously, the club design is exception-based.




Curse you.  My monitor is now covered in Dr. Pepper.  *shakes fist*


----------



## GorTeX (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Fifth...why does the Drudge have better armor than the raider? (+4 over reflex vs. +3) You'd think the more elite an orc was, the better armor he'd have. Seems to fit.




I'm curious now.  Why do you base your opinion on the quality of Armor by the amount the AC is over their Reflex defense?

By this method, the Orc Raider (wearing leather) has worse armor than the Orc Raider (wearing leather) (+2 vs +3), while the Orc Raider's armor (leather) is just as good as the Orc Chieftain's Chainmail (both +3 over relflex)


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> What it boils down to is, I don't see what this system gives me that "Humanoid+levels" didn't.




Hope and Change.


----------



## Lizard (May 9, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Overlevelled minions are playing GURPS in D&D!




Can we kill them and take their rulebooks?


----------



## Lurks-no-More (May 9, 2008)

On the "fighting orcs at 1st level" thing, wasn't that kind of a dangerous idea in 3e already? The orc warriors in MM are strong enough to hit fairly often, and do a hellacious amount of damage for a "cannon fodder" critter.


----------



## drjones (May 9, 2008)

A real juicy excerpt, I loved it.  

For level 1 characters you can totally have them fight orcs but you will have more interesting fights tactically by going with kobolds or goblins because they go down faster and you can throw more of them with more interesting roles at the players without fear of overwhelming them.  Besides, unless they have a lot of leveled variants you will want to use the kobolds at low level since you might not find them much of a challenge once you level up a bit.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 9, 2008)

I like 'em. The entry is fluffy enough to give some good inspiration, the orcs are heavy hitters with some staying power.

Not sure I'm a huge fan of their link to giants, but that's pretty easy to fix if I find it kind of weak sauce. 

Acceptable! I think the humanoids are going to really shine in this edition (though I'm still a little worried about the rest of the critters).


----------



## Celebrim (May 9, 2008)

Hmmmm... some good, some bad.  

1) I like the new racial templates.  Very flavorful and makes combat more interesting with low level critters.

2) I love the new emphasis on gamist design in terms of what it means in play.  These are fun monsters, and I'm starting to lean toward buying the 4e MM just to mine ideas from it.

3) I have mixed feelings about the whole idea of the general population being high level minions.  I see the point, and you can find similar ideas in 1st edition (Hickman does this in I3: Pyramid, for example).   But I presume that average human townguards/elf warriors/drawf warriors are now level 7-10 minions as well?  Are the days of hiring men-at-arms to adventure with you at low levels back?  Sure, they are 'red shirts' but they are red-shirts that have very high 'to hit' scores.  I wouldn't mind having a half dozen level 9 human minion archers at my back, especially when it came to killing (1 hp) orc soldiers.

4) I think if I were to do 4e, one of my first house rules would be along the lines of 'Minions get 1 hp per level'.  It won't matter too much in terms of ability to survive attacks from PC's of comparable level (who will still probably be dropping minions in one hit most of the time), but it does reduce some of the glass jaw silliness of having 1 hp and might reduce the temptation to metagame that knowledge.  

6) Never before in the games history have 1st level characters been so far beneath the assumed average power level of other beings in the world.  Alot of people touted 4e as making the players heroes from 1st level.  Quite the contrary, we see that 1st level PC's are extremely subpar individuals in terms of just about everything.  There are whole armies of 9th level characters out there with base to hit scores well above 1st level PC levels.  Heroic tier, despite its name and high amount of flash, is really mundane tier in disguise.  That's not all bad but it is wierd.  Not only are PC's not nearly as skilled in a fight as your average orc minion, but their ability scores are far below those of say average orc chieftains (who look like they start with 3 18's plus several other good scores), and the will never ever be 'elite' in the same fashion that an 'elite' NPC will be.  That 8th level Chieftain for example has hp comparable to a 20th level PC.  A party of 5 elite NPC's - and it seems the world will never lack for these - is pretty much always going to be more capable in a fight than the PC party is.  Never before in the games history has there been quite the oppurtunity for PC's to actually let the cool uber-NPC do the heavy lifting, nor has the game quite as endorsed the concept of uber-PC since the days of the 2nd edition rules for 'Chosen of Mystra'.


----------



## Fanaelialae (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Sixth...an orc hospital must consist of a bag of rats. "Whack rat till feel better."
> 
> Seventh...let's say, Ghu forbid, I *do* want to make my own orcs. I know that's "tedious and dull" and no sane DM wants to actually tinker with worldbuilding, but bear me out. Nothing in the article says "This is what a generic orc is". There's no clear indicator which powers are "orc powers" all orcs get, and which are pseudo-class powers. (To judge by the drudge, there's nothing which ALL orcs get by default.) There's not even a basic racial profile to use if I want to build an Orc Fighter from scratch. Do I staple levels onto the minion? The raider? I want to make a first level orc warlord who has gathered some drudges into a bandit gang. How?




6. I recall it having been stated for 4e that in order for a power that activates from hitting or killing a target to function, the target must be an actual threat.  A bag of rats isn't a threat, so it would not grant an orc any healing.  
I suppose that beaten orcs could regain hp by fighting each other, assuming they were legitimately trying to beat each other senseless/dead, but I don't have a problem with that... an orc feeling better after beating another orc to death feels very... orcish.

7.  I'm fairly certain that they've stated that there will be a section in either the MM or DMG that explains the math and method behind monster creation.  They've also mentioned they'll have rules for scaling creatures up and down in level, and a way to add aspects of a class.


----------



## Cadfan (May 9, 2008)

I like the way the power curve has been rewritten.  Characters on average are better than 3e counterparts, but instead of using that power bump to send the players against weird and wacky opponents, regular opponents like kobolds, goblins and orcs have received a boost.

I like the idea of introducing orcs as a threat at around level 4, then rounding off the campaign at about level 10 with a final showdown against the biggest and the best of the orc horde.


----------



## Wolfspider (May 9, 2008)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> As for hacking with clubs - obviously, the club design is exception-based.




HA!


----------



## Cadfan (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Seventh...let's say, Ghu forbid, I *do* want to make my own orcs. I know that's "tedious and dull" and no sane DM wants to actually tinker with worldbuilding, but bear me out. Nothing in the article says "This is what a generic orc is". There's no clear indicator which powers are "orc powers" all orcs get, and which are pseudo-class powers. (To judge by the drudge, there's nothing which ALL orcs get by default.) There's not even a basic racial profile to use if I want to build an Orc Fighter from scratch. Do I staple levels onto the minion? The raider? I want to make a first level orc warlord who has gathered some drudges into a bandit gang. How?



I definitely understand your concern.  There are so many possible ways to build an orc, but if you choose one that's Wrong (tm), you will be shot.


			
				Celebrim said:
			
		

> But I presume that average human townguards/elf warriors/drawf warriors are now level 7-10 minions as well?



I believe we've seen stats for a level 3 human guard.  I assume there will be a number of human NPC statblocks, just like there are orcs.


			
				Celebrim said:
			
		

> 4) I think if I were to do 4e, one of my first house rules would be along the lines of 'Minions get 1 hp per level'. It won't matter too much in terms of ability to survive attacks from PC's of comparable level (who will still probably be dropping minions in one hit most of the time), but it does reduce some of the glass jaw silliness of having 1 hp and might reduce the temptation to metagame that knowledge.



I had a similar thought.  But I'm only going to bother with it if there are effects in the game which do gamebreaking things like deal 1 point of damage per round to everyone within 30 feet.  So far, the lowest damage effect we've seen has been the damage stemming from Cleave, so I haven't seen a problem.


----------



## jaelis (May 9, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> 6) Never before in the games history have 1st level characters been so far beneath the assumed average power level of other beings in the world.  Alot of people touted 4e as making the players heroes from 1st level.  Quite the contrary, we see that 1st level PC's are extremely subpar individuals in terms of just about everything.  There are whole armies of 9th level characters out there with base to hit scores well above 1st level PC levels.  Heroic tier, despite its name and high amount of flash, is really mundane tier in disguise.  That's not all bad but it is wierd.  Not only are PC's not nearly as skilled in a fight as your average orc minion, but their ability scores are far below those of say average orc chieftains (who look like they start with 3 18's plus several other good scores), and the will never ever be 'elite' in the same fashion that an 'elite' NPC will be.  That 8th level Chieftain for example has hp comparable to a 20th level PC.  A party of 5 elite NPC's - and it seems the world will never lack for these - is pretty much always going to be more capable in a fight than the PC party is.  Never before in the games history has there been quite the oppurtunity for PC's to actually let the cool uber-NPC do the heavy lifting, nor has the game quite as endorsed the concept of uber-PC since the days of the 2nd edition rules for 'Chosen of Mystra'.



Not sure I get this.  Of course NPCs that are more powerful than the PCs will be more powerful than the PCs.   An orc warrior minion is generally more powerful than a level 1 PC, but so is, say, a pit fiend.  All I really see is that orcs are a lot tougher than they used to be.  That doesn't mean that there aren't all kinds of weak NPCs out there to make the PCs feel special.

Also, the orc warriors are evidently designed as level 9 minions, not level 1 soldiers.  Even if a level 9 minion and a level 1 soldier a supposed to represent a similar challenge (in terms of XP say), it makes sense to me that they would work differently.  Being a non-ignorable mook for a high level party is just a different thing than being a major opponent for a low level party.


----------



## Fanaelialae (May 9, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> 3) I have mixed feelings about the whole idea of the general population being high level minions.  I see the point, and you can find similar ideas in 1st edition (Hickman does this in I3: Pyramid, for example).   But I presume that average human townguards/elf warriors/drawf warriors are now level 7-10 minions as well?  Are the days of hiring men-at-arms to adventure with you at low levels back?  Sure, they are 'red shirts' but they are red-shirts that have very high 'to hit' scores.  I wouldn't mind having a half dozen level 9 human minion archers at my back, especially when it came to killing (1 hp) orc soldiers.
> 
> 4) I think if I were to do 4e, one of my first house rules would be along the lines of 'Minions get 1 hp per level'.  It won't matter too much in terms of ability to survive attacks from PC's of comparable level (who will still probably be dropping minions in one hit most of the time), but it does reduce some of the glass jaw silliness of having 1 hp and might reduce the temptation to metagame that knowledge.
> 
> 6) Never before in the games history have 1st level characters been so far beneath the assumed average power level of other beings in the world.  Alot of people touted 4e as making the players heroes from 1st level.  Quite the contrary, we see that 1st level PC's are extremely subpar individuals in terms of just about everything.  There are whole armies of 9th level characters out there with base to hit scores well above 1st level PC levels.  Heroic tier, despite its name and high amount of flash, is really mundane tier in disguise.  That's not all bad but it is wierd.  Not only are PC's not nearly as skilled in a fight as your average orc minion, but their ability scores are far below those of say average orc chieftains (who look like they start with 3 18's plus several other good scores), and the will never ever be 'elite' in the same fashion that an 'elite' NPC will be.  That 8th level Chieftain for example has hp comparable to a 20th level PC.  A party of 5 elite NPC's - and it seems the world will never lack for these - is pretty much always going to be more capable in a fight than the PC party is.  Never before in the games history has there been quite the oppurtunity for PC's to actually let the cool uber-NPC do the heavy lifting, nor has the game quite as endorsed the concept of uber-PC since the days of the 2nd edition rules for 'Chosen of Mystra'.




4.  It's your game, but I thought I'd point out that in real life (yes, I am aware that D&D is a fantasy game with magic and the like) it only takes a single, significant wound to put someone on the ground or kill them.  As I see it, minions are just unlucky (or, non-minions are lucky, take your pick).  IMO.

6.  My DM was inspired enough by the points of light concept that he took it and adapted it for his 3.5 game.  The idea is that there are high level NPCs out there, but they are few in number and virtually all dedicated to town defense.  The PCs are road wardens comissioned by the king to enforce his justice outside town walls.  I expect that this will likely be the idea behind PoL.  Sure, you might have half a dozen level 10 guards in a given town, but they're the town's only real defense against the threats outside.  If they were to hunt down the orc band that's been attacking merchants, the goblins would swoop in and pillage the town.  What good is ridding the land of a single orc band if the town is destroyed?  That's where the adventurers come in.  4e doesn't need endless mobs of high level (human) NPCs.  It just needs a few effective enough to prevent towns from being overrun by nearby threats.

As a side note, the campaign has been a lot of fun so far, and our PCs have yet to feel "unspecial".


----------



## drjones (May 9, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> 6) Never before in the games history have 1st level characters been so far beneath the assumed average power level of other beings in the world.  Alot of people touted 4e as making the players heroes from 1st level.  Quite the contrary, we see that 1st level PC's are extremely subpar individuals in terms of just about everything.  There are whole armies of 9th level characters out there with base to hit scores well above 1st level PC levels.  Heroic tier, despite its name and high amount of flash, is really mundane tier in disguise.  That's not all bad but it is wierd.  Not only are PC's not nearly as skilled in a fight as your average orc minion, but their ability scores are far below those of say average orc chieftains (who look like they start with 3 18's plus several other good scores), and the will never ever be 'elite' in the same fashion that an 'elite' NPC will be.  That 8th level Chieftain for example has hp comparable to a 20th level PC.  A party of 5 elite NPC's - and it seems the world will never lack for these - is pretty much always going to be more capable in a fight than the PC party is.  Never before in the games history has there been quite the oppurtunity for PC's to actually let the cool uber-NPC do the heavy lifting, nor has the game quite as endorsed the concept of uber-PC since the days of the 2nd edition rules for 'Chosen of Mystra'.



Are not all leveled rpgs this way?  If there are not a bunch of higher level bad guys out there somewhere (or lower in the dungeon if you go back far enough in dnd history) then who are you going to fight when you level up?  The same level 1 scrubs?

That is the magic of every RPG ever made, no matter how powerful you get there will still be enemies who challenge you and, surprise surprise those are the enemies you meet!  This is also why games like WoW can get soul-deadeningly boring once you realize that if you can kill a level 1 boar in 5 hits at level 1 then killing a level 50 boar at level 50 in 5 hits is exactly the same.

So yeah I really don't think tis is a negative at all unless you are trying to make a simulation world where no PCs level up, in which case you don't need the Monster Manual or any other book, just start writing.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 9, 2008)

> But I presume that average human townguards/elf warriors/drawf warriors are now level 7-10 minions as well? Are the days of hiring men-at-arms to adventure with you at low levels back? Sure, they are 'red shirts' but they are red-shirts that have very high 'to hit' scores. I wouldn't mind having a half dozen level 9 human minion archers at my back, especially when it came to killing (1 hp) orc soldiers.




I kind of like that, actually. Definately makes it cool for a PC warlord with his tribe of minions that level alongside of him and can help him face down armies of other nations. 



> I think if I were to do 4e, one of my first house rules would be along the lines of 'Minions get 1 hp per level'. It won't matter too much in terms of ability to survive attacks from PC's of comparable level (who will still probably be dropping minions in one hit most of the time), but it does reduce some of the glass jaw silliness of having 1 hp and might reduce the temptation to metagame that knowledge.




Yeah, I'm not sure about the metagame. I might just ignore hps entirely for minions. "One hit kills them, but other damaging effects may or may not."

I'm not sure how I feel about the "no misses damage them" thing. Kinda seems like it might blow away my disbelief when I damage the BBEG with a whiff, but not his 300 spawnlings.



> Never before in the games history have 1st level characters been so far beneath the assumed average power level of other beings in the world.




This is interesting, too. "Heroic" obviously doesn't mean "I have bigger numbers than you." I'm really looking forward to how they capture that.


----------



## Waneta (May 9, 2008)

I don't know if this has been pointed out elsewhere, but its looking to me like the three tiers will be differentiated by the monsters you face as well as the abilities of the PC's.  Heroic is looking like the humanoid tier, where you often fight are kobolds, gnolls, orcs.  They're all levels one to ten.  Paragon is more the extraordinary tier, where your fighting things of this world but more fantastical, and then Epic is where you fight things like devils and demons.  That seems pretty nifty to me.


----------



## Scribble (May 9, 2008)

this line:

"The orc raider hurls handaxes until it runs out of axes or until
its enemies close to melee, at which point it draws its greataxe."

sounds kind of silly to me... Makes me vizualize an orc with a huge sack full of hand axes...

Hey what's in the bag??? ohhh another hand axe! hah! Wait this is difefrent it's- oooooh just kidding a hand axe! hah!

I know thats not what they mean... but still.


----------



## ForbidenMaster (May 9, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.





> *Orc Raider Level 1 Skirmisher*
> Medium natural humanoid XP Unknown
> Initiative +5 Senses Perception +1; low-light vision
> HP Unknown; Bloodied Unknown; see also warrior’s surge
> ...





And there you go, a first level orc as per the rules for customizing monsters.  Remember, the name of the game for the MM and DMG is usability.  Its better to have a base that you can scale then either a) having too many stat blocks, or b) making the DM have to make up their own.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (May 9, 2008)

Scribble said:
			
		

> this line:
> 
> "The orc raider hurls handaxes until it runs out of axes or until
> its enemies close to melee, at which point it draws its greataxe."
> ...



It clearly says they have 4 handaxes at the bottom of their stat-block.


----------



## frankthedm (May 9, 2008)

Gunpowder said:
			
		

> They do, this combo only works if the 10 hit points from the attack from the Death Strike aura bumps him to positive because his Wounded Retaliation is a reaction so it happens after the triggering effect. So drive him into the negative enough and the 10 hit points wont be enough to bring him to positive so the second attack never occurs due to death.
> 
> Wait, full stop. All healing effects ignore negative hit points and start healing you from zero automatically. So they *are* unkillable against bloodied melee opponents because the healing from Blood for Blood triggering off the Death Strike happens after being driven to below zero which the healing ignores the negative hit point penalty and starts healing from zero. Hell the bloodied opponent doesn't even need to be the one delivering the killing blow.
> 
> So yes a bloodrager is unkillable as long as he is in the aura and has a bloodied enemy in melee range, assuming he hits with his Death Strike attack.



So the_ 'can take infinite damage' _ frenzied berserker is basically still around, just not in the hands of PCs...


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 9, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> It clearly says they have 4 handaxes at the bottom of their stat-block.



That doesn't remove the possibility of the Orcs carrying them in a huge sack, right? For sufficient small variants of huge, 4 Handaxes would indeed fill it.


----------



## Sojorn (May 9, 2008)

ForbidenMaster said:
			
		

> And there you go, a first level orc as per the rules for customizing monsters.  Remember, the name of the game for the MM and DMG is usability.  Its better to have a base that you can scale then either a) having too many stat blocks, or b) making the DM have to make up their own.



Skirmishers lose 8 HP per level (if the templates are to be believed).

So the level 1 orc raider has 30 HP, 15 bloodied and regains 7 on his warrior's surge (if you want to go for completeness on the modifying. Leaving it at 11 wouldn't hurt much). 

XP is 100.


----------



## Scribble (May 9, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> It clearly says they have 4 handaxes at the bottom of their stat-block.




Thank you for pointing this out. I was about to abandon 4e for ever.

This is why I said, "I know that's not what they mean"


----------



## frankthedm (May 9, 2008)

ForbidenMaster said:
			
		

> And there you go, a first level orc as per the rules for customizing monsters.  Remember, the name of the game for the MM and DMG is usability.  Its better to have a base that you can scale then either a) having too many stat blocks, or b) making the DM have to make up their own.



I like it, though I'd suspect 1d12 might be just too much damage to be the weapon of a level one foe.

Say, what would the minions look like at level 1?


----------



## Dausuul (May 9, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> 6) Never before in the games history have 1st level characters been so far beneath the assumed average power level of other beings in the world.  Alot of people touted 4e as making the players heroes from 1st level.  Quite the contrary, we see that 1st level PC's are extremely subpar individuals in terms of just about everything.  There are whole armies of 9th level characters out there with base to hit scores well above 1st level PC levels.




No, there are armies of 9th-level _minions_.  Very different matter.  A 9th-level minion is one-fourth as powerful as a regular 9th-level monster or character... and based on the XP tables, a regular 9th-level monster or character is 4 times as powerful as a 1st-level monster or character.  So the orc warrior is actually the rough equivalent of a 1st-level PC.

And the warrior minion is clearly a bad-ass orc; they're Uruk-Hai, not random grunts.  For random grunts, we have drudge minions.



			
				Celebrim said:
			
		

> A party of 5 elite NPC's - and it seems the world will never lack for these - is pretty much always going to be more capable in a fight than the PC party is.  Never before in the games history has there been quite the oppurtunity for PC's to actually let the cool uber-NPC do the heavy lifting, nor has the game quite as endorsed the concept of uber-PC since the days of the 2nd edition rules for 'Chosen of Mystra'.




Bwah?  This makes no sense.  Why would you assume the world is crawling with elite NPCs who are way more powerful than the PCs?  The bloodrager and the chieftain are top-of-the-line orcs; they _should_ be tough customers.

The chieftain may have the hit points of a 20th-level PC, but he doesn't have the defenses, the attack and skill bonuses, or the special abilities of one.


----------



## Fanaelialae (May 9, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how I feel about the "no misses damage them" thing. Kinda seems like it might blow away my disbelief when I damage the BBEG with a whiff, but not his 300 spawnlings.




You can still narrate this as the minion(s) having been injured (scorched by a fireball, a minor flesh wound from a sword).  In fact, I plan on doing exactly that, to prevent my players from being able to easily distinguish minions from regular mobs (at least until the mobs attack).  It's simply that, mechanically speaking, they haven't been damaged(and it is a lot simpler to track that, of the 30 minion zombie horde you started with, 15 are still alive, than it is to track that 12 are uninjured, 1 has 1 hp left, and 2 have 4 hp left).  IMO.


----------



## Celebrim (May 9, 2008)

drjones said:
			
		

> Are not all leveled rpgs this way?...This is also why games like WoW can get soul-deadeningly boring once you realize that if you can kill a level 1 boar in 5 hits at level 1 then killing a level 50 boar at level 50 in 5 hits is exactly the same.




Ah.  Irony always cheers me up.  Facing life would be so much harder without it.



> So yeah I really don't think tis is a negative at all...




Double irony!! Even better!!!


----------



## Dragonblade (May 9, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> 2) I love the new emphasis on gamist design in terms of what it means in play.  These are fun monsters, and I'm starting to lean toward buying the 4e MM just to mine ideas from it.




Gooooood. Gooooood. Take your 4e Monster Manual and strike your players down. Then your journey towards the dark side will be complete.


----------



## drjones (May 9, 2008)

Your definition of irony seems to be anything that does not exactly match your worldview.  This is not the generally accepted definition.

But anyway, if RPGs with levels are problematic, why are you interested in dnd?


----------



## MindWanderer (May 9, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Is the Eye of Gruumsh's initiative correct?  I'm getting +2 (Dexterity) plus +2 (Level) for +4.  Where is the +6 coming from?



The level 2 elf archer has +11 initiative.  No way in hell that can be derived from anything.


			
				arscott said:
			
		

> I doubt it.  It seems like a simple rewording of the earlier minion hp rules to eliminate confusion.
> 
> The kobold minion's hp line said:
> A minion dies when _hit_ by an attack that deals damage
> ...



It's a little different.  The old phrasing made them immune to damage from auras or Divine Challenge; the new one does not.


			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.



I actually really like that.  Kobolds start at level 1, goblins at level 2, hobgoblins at level 3, and orcs at level 4.  It's beautiful, really.

And if you really want level 1 orcs, we've been given rules about how to adjust monster level by up to +/- 5.  Lower their stats according to the simple formula and voila.


----------



## malraux (May 9, 2008)

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> The level 2 elf archer has +11 initiative.  No way in hell that can be derived from anything.



Without looking at anything, 18 Dex + 2 Racial gives a 20 in Dex (reasonable for an elf archer).  So +5 from stat, +1 for level, then +5 for the equivalent of training in initiative.  Several creatures have had an unclassified +5 in init, at least by my reckoning.  And certainly it fits the creature to specialize in init over other skills.


----------



## Celebrim (May 9, 2008)

drjones said:
			
		

> Your definition of irony seems to be anything that does not exactly match your worldview.




No, that's your definition of my definition.  It has nothing to do with what I actually said or was thinking.



> This is not the generally accepted definition.




The charitable principle would suggest then that you should not attribute it to me.

The reason I found it ironic was that while apparantly arguing against my position, you nonetheless restated one of my major complaints with the new edition.  It was like saying, "Your totally wrong but I agree with your claim."  That's irony.

And then it was doubly ironic because after making a claim that play of this sort was "soul deadingly boring" you proceeded to claim that you didn't see it as a negative.  That's irony.



> But anyway, if RPGs with levels are problematic, why are you interested in dnd?




Excuse me, but you are the one that asked the rhetorical question "Are not all leveled rpgs this way?"  You are the one claiming then that all RPGs with levels are problematic, and you are the one who is admitting you find 'fixed math' to be "soul deadingly boring".  Those are your positions.  They don't match mine, and its precisely in the ways that they don't match my position that I am interested in D&D.  If you think all RPGs with levels are problimatic and lead to 'soul deadingly boring' play, then I could just as easily ask you why you are interested in D&D?


----------



## Ruin Explorer (May 9, 2008)

I'm kind of "meh" to these Orcs, but I've always been "meh" to D&D's visions of Orcs, from Basic D&D to 4E, so, at least it's not any worse! The art kind of sucks, which is sad, and of the Orcs, most are boring (esp. with all the "hit + heal self" attacks - I mean YAWN), but the Eye of Gruumsh is kind of cool, and y'know, Orcs is Orcs. I hope the MM description includes, y'know a LITTLE more about Orcish society beyond "Bad lazy things come to take your stuff!". Seems a bit... I don't know... dull? I like me some evil humanoids and I don't need epic motivations for weak-ass monsters, but a bit more depth would be appreciated.


----------



## frankthedm (May 9, 2008)

Fanaelialae said:
			
		

> You can still narrate this as the minion(s) having been injured (scorched by a fireball, a minor flesh wound from a sword).  In fact, I plan on doing exactly that, to prevent my players from being able to easily distinguish minions from regular mobs (at least until the mobs attack).  It's simply that, mechanically speaking, they haven't been damaged(and it is a lot simpler to track that, of the 30 minion zombie horde you started with, 15 are still alive, than it is to track that 12 are uninjured, 1 has 1 hp left, and 2 have 4 hp left).  IMO.



Yeah, this works more than well enough. Sure there is a _chance_ a minion will be the subject of so many _"misses that damage"_ effects that it will have avoided more damage than a _normal_ foe of it's level has, but the chances for that are so slim, it is not worth worring about. Unless the players have luck like my group, who tend to roll higher on d10's than on d20's


----------



## Scribble (May 9, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> The reason I found it ironic was that while apparantly arguing against my position, you nonetheless restated one of my major complaints with the new edition.  It was like saying, "Your totally wrong but I agree with your claim."  That's irony.
> 
> And then it was doubly ironic because after making a claim that play of this sort was "soul deadingly boring" you proceeded to claim that you didn't see it as a negative.  That's irony.




How does that have anything to do with rain on my wedding day???


----------



## am181d (May 9, 2008)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> I'm kind of "meh" to these Orcs, but I've always been "meh" to D&D's visions of Orcs, from Basic D&D to 4E, so, at least it's not any worse! The art kind of sucks, which is sad, and of the Orcs, most are boring (esp. with all the "hit + heal self" attacks - I mean YAWN), but the Eye of Gruumsh is kind of cool, and y'know, Orcs is Orcs. *I hope the MM description includes*, y'know a LITTLE more about Orcish society beyond "Bad lazy things come to take your stuff!". Seems a bit... I don't know... dull? I like me some evil humanoids and I don't need epic motivations for weak-ass monsters, but a bit more depth would be appreciated.




I believe the excerpt is the complete Orc entry from the _MM_.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 9, 2008)

> You can still narrate this as the minion(s) having been injured (scorched by a fireball, a minor flesh wound from a sword). In fact, I plan on doing exactly that, to prevent my players from being able to easily distinguish minions from regular mobs (at least until the mobs attack). It's simply that, mechanically speaking, they haven't been damaged(and it is a lot simpler to track that, of the 30 minion zombie horde you started with, 15 are still alive, than it is to track that 12 are uninjured, 1 has 1 hp left, and 2 have 4 hp left). IMO.




Eh. This annoys me because it robs the fun the players have hewing through masses of mooks. The POINT of a minion is that any damage the players can dish out, the little dude can't take!

I think I might implement a rule like this:

*REINFORCEMENTS*: Minions still take damage on a miss. However, any minions killed on a miss are immediately replaced on the next round with an equal number of reinforcements that have arrived. These reinforcements are equal to the minions that were killed in every way.

Keeps my sense of believability intact (I can probably usually buy that there are "hidden reserves" somewhere that my character doesn't know about), lets my players shine (it's gonna be so much fun when the fireball wipes out the mass army!) while preserving the intent of the rules (re-spawning minions basically act as if the regular minions didn't die), and allowing me to add a nice little "last hurrah!" moment to the combat.

Alternately, a rule like this:

*Incapacitated Minions*: Any minions damaged on a miss are dying slowly, but not instantly dead. They can't participate in combat, but they remain concious. They can be healed, they can be interrogated, they can be squashed under your boot, they're talking through gritted teeth as their blood pools beneath them, but they're not dead yet! You get no XP from minions killed on a miss.

The problem with this is that it STILL means damaged minions are out of the fight, so they're not providing a challenge, but the freed up XP lets me inject more minions at some later date (or save it up for the Momma Minion at the end). 

Actually, to keep it fairly simple, "No XP for minions killed on a miss" works pretty well, because XP is used to populate monsters in an encounter, so it just ramps up the challenge of the next encounter or something.

Hmm....kind of like that.


----------



## Fanaelialae (May 9, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Yeah, this works more than well enough. Sure there is a _chance_ a minion will be the subject of so many _"misses that damage"_ effects that it will have avoided more damage than a _normal_ foe of it's level has, but the chances for that are so slim, it is not worth worring about. Unless the players have luck like my group, who tend to roll higher on d10's than on d20's




Yeah, mine too, with the exception of one player who seems to siphon the rest of the group's luck for his own sinister purposes.  I can only imagine how amused I'd be if the players began speculating as to what kind of paragon level orc this guy could be to survive over a dozen half-damage misses, when in truth he's a lowly Orc Drudge.


----------



## ThirdWizard (May 9, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> Excuse me, but you are the one that asked the rhetorical question "Are not all leveled rpgs this way?"  You are the one claiming then that all RPGs with levels are problematic, and you are the one who is admitting you find 'fixed math' to be "soul deadingly boring".  Those are your positions.  They don't match mine, and its precisely in the ways that they don't match my position that I am interested in D&D.  If you think all RPGs with levels are problimatic and lead to 'soul deadingly boring' play, then I could just as easily ask you why you are interested in D&D?




Of course, he is arguing that _if you find these things problematic_ then, yes, all level based RPGs are problematic. Since all your points about monsters being more powerful than 1st level PCs can be applied to all previous editions of D&D, and if you find those points problematic, then the only possible assumption to make is that you find all prior editions of D&D problematic.


----------



## Wormwood (May 9, 2008)

am181d said:
			
		

> I believe the excerpt is the complete Orc entry from the _MM_.



Looked complete to me. If every monster gets such attention I'll be a happy DM.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 9, 2008)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Of course, he is arguing that _if you find these things problematic_ then, yes, all level based RPGs are problematic. Since all your points about monsters being more powerful than 1st level PCs can be applied to all previous editions of D&D, and if you find those points problematic, then the only possible assumption to make is that you find all prior editions of D&D problematic.




Right.

The complaint about monsters being more powerful than PCs is... strange.  I'm really not sure how I could personally address it.  If there are not monsters more powerful than PCs, then PCs will experience fewer and fewer challenges past 1st level.

"Badass PCs" and "Challenging Encounters" are not mutually exclusive.  We can have both, you know.   

That said, I'm not convinced that a 4th level orc minion is actually more powerful than a PC.  I think a monster's XP value says more about its difficulty than its actual level.


----------



## Mort_Q (May 9, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> The POINT of a minion is that any damage the players can dish out, the little dude can't take!




I don't share your opinion on minions.   

The POINT of a minion is that they succumb to any attack a player makes that *doesn't miss*.

Rewarding missing is silly.

Hit Points aren't a measure of health.  It's easy enough to imagine that the minion was _hurt_ by the miss, but not enough to drop it.

I'd rather house rule it that a miss can never bring any NPC to zero hitpoints... but only if I have to change the rules.  I like what I've seen so far.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 9, 2008)

> The complaint about monsters being more powerful than PCs



I haven't been paying the closest of attention, here, but here's something...



			
				Celebrim said:
			
		

> That's not all bad but it is wierd.



....do you see a real complaint there? 

It's not all bad. PC's can be challenged. It might be a little bad (if it leads to insanely off-base NPC's like the Chosen of Mystra). It is wierd, given D&D's goals of being a heroic fantasy game, to have lots of fairly common NPC's (as opposed to rare monsters) that are quite a bit powerful. It kind of makes sense with Points of Light, but it's still kind of wierd.

I wasn't aware that anyone was really complaining, just pointing out something that was odd to them.


----------



## Ruin Explorer (May 9, 2008)

am181d said:
			
		

> I believe the excerpt is the complete Orc entry from the _MM_.




Fo' real? Well, that's totally pathetic, if you'll forgive my saying so. I like the background of the monsters more than having a few different flavours, most of which are dull. Hmph.


----------



## Wormwood (May 9, 2008)

Mort_Q said:
			
		

> Hit Points aren't a measure of health.  It's easy enough to imagine that the minion was _hurt_ by the miss, but not enough to drop it.



That's the point. You can't really "hurt" a 1 HP minion without killing it, so it only makes sense that they survive a miss. 

So sure, minions are "hurt" by your missed fireball---as much as the system will allow while still maintaining their one-hit-kill goodness.


----------



## Mort_Q (May 9, 2008)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> That's the point. You can't really "hurt" a 1 HP minion without killing it, so it only makes sense that they survive a miss.
> 
> So sure, minions are "hurt" by your missed fireball---as much as the system will allow while still maintaining their one-hit-kill goodness.




Then we're in agreement. Most excellent.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 9, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware that anyone was really complaining, just pointing out something that was odd to them.




Fair enough, "complaint" was a poor word choice.  My mistake.

Still, it is a rather strange thing to mention, considering the legacy of the game is based around this paradigm, 4th edition aside.


----------



## Wormwood (May 9, 2008)

Mort_Q said:
			
		

> Then we're in agreement. Most excellent.



But of course!


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 9, 2008)

> The POINT of a minion is that they succumb to any attack a player makes that doesn't miss.



Close. The they're there to fall down and go blargh whenever the player makes them do that. 90% of the time, that'll likely be when they hit them. 



> Rewarding missing is silly.



4e disagress with this statement. 4e rewards missing ALL THE TIME (reliable abilities, half or modifier damage, whatever). It rewards hitting more, but a miss is still rewarded. I happen to think that this accomplishes a few nice goals. It lets the PC's be bad ass, it lets the PC's have SOMETHING when they're spending their resources, and it causes the players to enjoy whupping ass a little more, and be a little more bold.

These are all wonderful reasons to reward missing.

Minions, as written, jack with this. They suck all the FUN out of missing, because suddenly, nothing happens to them. They are immune!

That's lame. Especially for a critter whose entire purpose is to die horribly, that's REALLY lame. I can just imagine the cries out outrage around the table as I tell the PC's "I'm sorry, but while your uber-fireball, which you can only release once per day, was powerful enough to slightly injure that ancient wyrm over there, this orc underling went "owie" and continued on his way." 

If a minion is supposed to be there to die, they should DIE, DIE, DIE. All the time! Fall like wheat before the thresher! And not just on a high d20 roll! 

Now, I can see the reason they did it. And it's not because of this:


> Hit Points aren't a measure of health.



No, that doesn't really matter here. 

The motive behind this little exception is pretty simple to find: Wiping out an entire platoon of minions with a fireball isn't a _challenge_, and giving the PC's the full reward for something they didn't really earn is lame, too. Minions, the theory goes, have to be immune to misses, because otherwise they're _too easy_ to kill.

I will poo on that idea's grave.

Because minions are supposed to be easy to kill. And, IMC, they will be. Of course, this still means that it's not a challenge. Which is why the XP goes back to me, the DM, to use either in more minions, or in some more powerful monster.

The drudges are 44 XP. I just need 5 of them -- 5! -- to give me the XP for, say, an Eye of Gruumsh (with some to spare!). Let the party wizard wipe out the platoon. Let the fighter Tide of Iron the mooks. What do I care? Each one they kill with a miss lets me rain down more destruction on them later. 

That's why "No XP for minions killed on a miss" is awesome.

And why "Minions take no damage on a miss" is a flaccid plazebo. 



> It's easy enough to imagine that the minion was hurt by the miss, but not enough to drop it.




Easy? Sure.

But, because minions are supposed to be easy to drop, it sucks more.

IMO, YMMV, HTH.


----------



## Wormwood (May 9, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> And why "Minions take no damage on a miss" is a flaccid plazebo.



I disagree with your premise, but I fully endorse the popularization of 'plazebo'. 

Carry on.


----------



## Celebrim (May 9, 2008)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Of course, he is arguing that _if you find these things problematic_ then, yes, all level based RPGs are problematic.




I'm well aware what he is arguing.



> Since all your points about monsters being more powerful than 1st level PCs can be applied to all previous editions of D&D




Can they?  That is, can you as a general rule claim that the vast majority of assumed inhabitants of any prior edition had characteristics superior to 1st level PCs?  Did a 1 HD orc have any attributes superior to a 1st level fighter?  Did a 1st level orc warrior have any attributes superior to a 1st level fighter?  Sure we can point to specific settings like Dark Sun or Planescape where 1st level characters were assumed to be well below the average power level of thier surroundings, but those are hardly settings with default assumptions.

Do you think my observation that something has change is really dismissable by noting that ancient red dragons have always existed, and as such, for example, that ordinary orc warriors have +14 base attack bonus is nothing new to the game?  Lets leave aside a judgment of whether thats good or bad (I have), I'm just noting that its new.  Do you agree or not?



> ...and if you find those points problematic, then the only possible assumption to make is that you find all prior editions of D&D problematic.




Do you really think that is the only possible conclusion?


----------



## keterys (May 9, 2008)

Missed minions earn no XP, and if possible are replaced as reinforcements, does seem a pretty decent house rule for dodging complications with that rule.

You could also have a general rule that no creature is _ever_ killed by an attack that misses, which potentially makes it more fair, and has some interesting effects on other situations.

The rule doesn't actually bother me at all, but I might do the reinforcements angle some fights anyways just cause I like the flavor of it. I don't normally use XP (folks level at certain milestones), so the no XP house rule doesn't do much for me. I will say that it's a little silly for turn undead to autokill undead minions, especially high level ones.

Which I guess is one reason to avoid it - using a half damage daily on a minion 20 levels higher than you to kill it is a bit silly.


----------



## Mort_Q (May 9, 2008)

It just makes it easier on the DM!  

Make them roll the damage! The players will never know that they just killed a minion and not just any other low level critter _unless you tell them_.  

The players will never feel robbed of their precious half-damage on a miss _unless_ you're stupid enough to _you tell them!_

It's all about ease for the DM and the appearance of power for the PC!

You don't need to use minions in your game if you don't want to.  I think they're a great idea.


----------



## Celebrim (May 9, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> These are all wonderful reasons to reward missing.
> 
> Minions, as written, jack with this. They suck all the FUN out of missing, because suddenly, nothing happens to them. They are immune!
> 
> That's lame. Especially for a critter whose entire purpose is to die horribly, that's REALLY lame. I can just imagine the cries out outrage around the table as I tell the PC's "I'm sorry, but while your uber-fireball, which you can only release once per day, was powerful enough to slightly injure that ancient wyrm over there, this orc underling went "owie" and continued on his way."




Yes.  I've been thinking about that as well.  Earlier I said that one of my first rule changes if adopting 4e would be to give minions ~1 hp per level.  One of the reasons I would like to do this is that it would allow me to drop the kludge fix that missing a minion does no damage to it.  Another reason is that I then would not have to be careful to avoid silly 'minion exterminators'.   For example, I could have minion stone giants without having to worry about them being dropped by rays of frost or single arrows or pokes from a commoner's pitchfork, and without having to worry about introducing effects that did single points of damage over wide areas.

I think that at some point in the games evolution, minions probably did have ~1 hp per level.  But this sometimes slowed the game down because a minion luckily survived a blow rather than being dropped and then you had to track thier hit points.  So they decided to give all minions 1 hp.  But this made minions too weak with respect to reliable powers so they added in a kludge to try to fix it.


----------



## AntiStateQuixote (May 9, 2008)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> I disagree with your premise, but I fully endorse the popularization of 'plazebo'.
> 
> Carry on.



Is that like the dreaded gazebo only not really?  Maybe it's the "you think it's a gazebo, so you treat it like a gazebo" gazebo?  Or is it the substitute for a gazebo that you treat for all intents and purposes like a gazebo and see how the PCs react to it.  If they react to it as they would to a real gazebo then we have the plazebo effect in which a fake gazebo is exactly as effective as a real gazebo in evoking player reactions.


----------



## frankthedm (May 9, 2008)

neceros said:
			
		

> Unless commoners aren't push overs as they shouldn't be. Peasants from old would destroy any of us in one on one combat. They worked so hard they kept in good shape, almost entirely.



 You might want to check out "In the Name of the King: A Dungeon Siege tale". It ain't a great movie, but it does have a decent scene of some commoners whupping some orcs.


----------



## Iron Sky (May 9, 2008)

Brent_Nall said:
			
		

> Is that like the dreaded gazebo only not really?  Maybe it's the "you think it's a gazebo, so you treat it like a gazebo" gazebo?  Or is it the substitute for a gazebo that you treat for all intents and purposes like a gazebo and see how the PCs react to it.  If they react to it as they would to a real gazebo then we have the plazebo effect in which a fake gazebo is exactly as effective as a real gazebo in evoking player reactions.





Awesome.  Sadly, the first time I've laughed that I can remember in a couple days.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 9, 2008)

> Make them roll the damage! The players will never know that they just killed a minion and not just any other low level critter unless you tell them.
> 
> The players will never feel robbed of their precious half-damage on a miss unless you're stupid enough to you tell them!




Pfft. I save my deception and machinations for when it really matters. Minions are supposed to save me energy, not make me think harder. 



> It's all about ease for the DM and the appearance of power for the PC!




Right, except "no damage on a miss" jacks with the last half of that. I'm more than willing to just not reward them for enemies that they didn't really kill in order to preserve the original intent behind the minion. 



> You don't need to use minions in your game if you don't want to. I think they're a great idea.




I think we all like the idea of minions, some of us just have some specific issues with how parts of them work. For me, "no damage on a miss" erodes the appearance PC power too much and makes them not fun. I'd rather change the rule to something fun and keep using minions than to toss out the baby, the bathwater, and the mistress.



			
				Celebrim said:
			
		

> I think that at some point in the games evolution, minions probably did have ~1 hp per level. But this sometimes slowed the game down because a minion luckily survived a blow rather than being dropped and then you had to track thier hit points. So they decided to give all minions 1 hp. But this made minions too weak with respect to reliable powers so they added in a kludge to try to fix it.




Not personally a fan of giving minions "actual hp," because it's a pain in my crack to have to worry about nickel-and-diming the little buggers.



			
				keterys said:
			
		

> using a half damage daily on a minion 20 levels higher than you to kill it is a bit silly.




Yeah...but I gotta imagine any situation where I'd actually have PC's facing a minion 20 levels higher would ALREADY be rediculously silly.

I mean, I'd change it to a "full version" behind the screens at the least.


----------



## Celebrim (May 9, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> Missed minions earn no XP, and if possible are replaced as reinforcements, does seem a pretty decent house rule for dodging complications with that rule.




Doesn't work.  Suppose the PC blows there big daily power to try to kill the horde of 12 minions.  They miss.  Normally the miss might do 2d6+Int power which would be very effective even if the horde had 5, 10 or 15 odd hit points each, but the minions with thier 1 hit point are immune.  Killing them all and then resurrecting them as reinforcements doesn't deal with the real problem, which is the PC has blown thier big daily area of effect attack and been less effective against the minions than they would have been against a powerful foe.


----------



## ForbidenMaster (May 9, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> I like it, though I'd suspect 1d12 might be just too much damage to be the weapon of a level one foe.
> 
> Say, what would the minions look like at level 1?





Orc Drudge Level 1 Minion
Medium natural humanoid XP Unknown
Initiative +0 Senses Perception +0; low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 13; Fortitude 12, Refl ex 9, Will 9
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
m Club (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+6 vs. AC; 3 damage.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Str 16 (+3) Dex 10 (+0) Wis 10 (+0)
Con 14 (+2) Int 8 (–1) Cha 9 (–1)
Equipment hide armor, club


----------



## Mort_Q (May 9, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Right, except "no damage on a miss" jacks with the last half of that.




Only if you let it.

I'm obviously not much of a writer.

*DM:* 3 orcs break from the cover of the crates and move here, here, and here.  These two have hide armour and are armed with clubs, this one looks tougher, and has leather armour and shield, and is weilding a battle axe.  He looks around and locks eyes with you (pointing at the player with the wizard PC)... he doesn't seem to like casters.

*Player:* So, if I cast _Fireball_ centered on this square, I can get both the axe dude and one of the clubs.  That's what I do.

*DM:* Roll... INT vs Reflex, and then damage.

*Player:* Ok... club first... I get with bonuses 16, and for the axe 19.  Damage is... X

*DM:* The fireball blooms into existence frying the two orcs caught in the blast.  The one with club is down, and his club smolders briefly.  The other orc you can see, managed to absorb most of the blast with his shield, but you singed his dreads, and he's looking meaner than ever.  It's his turn... he charges you...




Heck, if there's a Cheiftain in the orc party, the minion can still get an extra attack in when you kill it.  Fun fun fun.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 9, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> Killing them all and then resurrecting them as reinforcements doesn't deal with the real problem, which is the PC has blown thier big daily area of effect attack and been less effective against the minions than they would have been against a powerful foe.




I don't see that as the real problem. I see the real problem being that players aren't given the sense of power that they should have against minions. 

Killin' 'em all and getting the XP back to stick something else in there largely fixes that for me.



			
				Mort Q said:
			
		

> I'm obviously not much of a writer.




Minions are supposed to save me effort. I really don't want to bother with having to describe something that binary as anything other than "splat" and "nosplat." I'll save my verbosity for the solo monster at the end, kthnx.


----------



## Scribble (May 9, 2008)

I think I am going to wait on revising the rules until after I;ve actually seen them all...

I mean what do we really know about the effects of misses so far? So far I haven't seen any powers that still cause damage after a miss... they just grant neat effects... (admitedly I haven't seen a ton of them.)


----------



## Piratecat (May 9, 2008)

Yeah, I'm making zero house rules for the first 9-game campaign I'm running. I want to try it extensively before changing it.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (May 9, 2008)

How often is a 9th level wizard going to miss hitting a 9th level Orc Warrior Minion?  Not to often by predictions.

A typical 9th level wizard has:
+4 to attack from being 9th level
+5 modifier due to an intelligence of 20
+2 attack modifier by virtue of using a +2 implement.

And throw on some miscellaneous +2 bonus from something else like feats, other magic items or an ally's power that's adding bonuses.

You got a bunch of +13 attack rolls, against a bunch of reflex defenses of 16.  A 9th level wizard will only miss on a 2 or lower, or with a +11 attack a 4 or lower if they didn't get that miscellaneous +2 bonus.


----------



## Mort_Q (May 9, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Minions are supposed to save me effort. I really don't want to bother with having to describe something that binary as anything other than "splat" and "nosplat." I'll save my verbosity for the solo monster at the end, kthnx.




Opinions are like that.  I don't know how your games work, but I can't see the descriptions actually changing at all in mine.  There's just less math.


----------



## Iron Sky (May 9, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I don't see that as the real problem. I see the real problem being that players aren't given the sense of power that they should have against minions.




The players aren't missing anything if they don't have an the knowledge and expectation that a) These are minions, and b) Minions should die even when I miss them.

I guess by what you've said, your vision of minions = they should die if they take any damage.

WotC's vision of minions = they should die if they take any hit.

Personally, I'll just describe minions that survived a damage-on-miss attack just like I'd describe any other monster that survived it:

PC: "Ok, my fireball hit this big one, missed these two little guys, and hit these three little guys."
DM: "The big one charges out of the flames with a roar, smoldering and bloodied but still standing.  Three of the smaller ones lie charred to a crisp on the floor while the other two pull themselves up, clothing blackened and smoking, and charge after the big one."


----------



## EonEdge (May 9, 2008)

I like the new orcs, as I have always liked orcs.

I am especially happy that they're not level 1.  I have never used orcs at level 1(that where my favorite humanoid monsters the kolbold belong)  and I never liked having to apply class levels to orcs to make them usable when I wanted to use them(levels 5-8). Couple that with my inability to keep my premade leveled orcs some place where i could find them, and orcs became a chore, which is sad for my second favorite monster.

Now the only real question is how to make my recurring orc npc.


----------



## keterys (May 9, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> Doesn't work.  Suppose the PC blows there big daily power to try to kill the horde of 12 minions.  They miss.




12 Times? I mean, that's a lot of misses.

At any rate, suppose the PC blows their big daily power to really hurt the big bad, but misses and doesn't do enough damage to get through their resistance.

... ,but the big bad uses a power that interposes a creature (ally or enemy) as a target.

Etc.

I think you've officially moved into 'Thinking too hard' land.


----------



## Scribble (May 9, 2008)

My take on the minion no damage from a miss is this:

Minions are exactly what their name implies... minions. They're the doofus mindless nameless psychos that run at the hero and get to yell out a one liner (like DIE HUMAN! or COBRA!!!!) before they get carved up by the heros... They die when you hit them. They're designed to be used by evil overloards to get in your way and suck up your attacks while he/she does something else. Just like in every action movie. They're not really designed to be any sort of challenge. Thats the job of the cobra comander.

As such I suspect that the AC vrs your attack is going to be so low that chances are you will kill them whever you attack them. If you miss, it's really a miss. a whiff. You slipped on blood or a banana peel, or the minion happened to find a naturally occuring wormhole that only exists for the precise moment of your shot.  

The leaders? The real challenge... They're different. When you miss them, you probably aren't missing them completely. You're attack is being knocked aside, or reflected off their armor. As such you're connecting in some way with them and wearing them down. You're showing them you're not just another commoner- You're a hero.


----------



## keterys (May 9, 2008)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'm making zero house rules for the first 9-game campaign I'm running. I want to try it extensively before changing it.




Oh, and agreed. The big question is how many extra classes, feats, paths, magic items, I add before I have a good grip on the balance of things.


----------



## pawsplay (May 9, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> 12 Times? I mean, that's a lot of misses.
> 
> At any rate, suppose the PC blows their big daily power to really hurt the big bad, but misses and doesn't do enough damage to get through their resistance.
> 
> ...




What if the monster party is lower level, and the partial damage on a miss kills the boss but not the minions? Ha!


----------



## Ultimatecalibur (May 9, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> What if the monster party is lower level, and the partial damage on a miss kills the boss but not the minions? Ha!




The only ways that wound happen is if the boss had already been weakened or that the pcs were a high enough level that the boss was not a threat and at that point is would be pretty obvious that the player had just rolled really bad.


----------



## Fanaelialae (May 9, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> What if the monster party is lower level, and the partial damage on a miss kills the boss but not the minions? Ha!




The Kobold Skirmisher (level 1 skirmisher) has 27 hp.  The Kobold Slinger (level 1 artillery) has 24 hp.

By the time the party is high enough level to one-shot a kobold with partial damage, level 1 creatures will likely not be considered bosses in any way, shape or form.

If what you mean is the party beats on the boss until he's about to drop and then uses a partial damage attack to finish him off, he was about to die anyway so I don't see the problem.  IMO.


----------



## Westwind (May 9, 2008)

Can someone explain to me how the attributes and attribute bonuses of the Orcs are figured?  The Orc Drudge seems to follow convention, but the other look skewed.  For example, the Orc Warrior has a Int of 8 but gets a +2 bonus.  If only that were true during _my_ character generation.


----------



## Kordeth (May 9, 2008)

Westwind said:
			
		

> Can someone explain to me how the attributes and attribute bonuses of the Orcs are figured?  The Orc Drudge seems to follow convention, but the other look skewed.  For example, the Orc Warrior has a Int of 8 but gets a +2 bonus.  If only that were true during _my_ character generation.




The bonuses listed with the attributes aren't the attribute bonuses, they're the attribute bonus plus level mod. The orc warrior appears to only be adding 1/3 his level, though, rather than the usual 1/2, and the orc drudge has no level mods at all.

Whoopsie.


----------



## ThirdWizard (May 10, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> Can they?  That is, can you as a general rule claim that the vast majority of assumed inhabitants of any prior edition had characteristics superior to 1st level PCs?  Did a 1 HD orc have any attributes superior to a 1st level fighter?




Vast majority? We don't know that humanoid monsters make up any kind of "vast majority" in world demographics. But, we do know that D&D has always had quite a few upscaled humanoid monsters that could wreck cities with just half a dozen strong.

I mean, a tribe of frost giants is ~25 individuals. How long do you think they could rampage before somebody stopped them? That's not even considering the ogres, hill giants, and other assortment of giants that apparently make up the world. 



> Do you think my observation that something has change is really dismissable by noting that ancient red dragons have always existed, and as such, for example, that ordinary orc warriors have +14 base attack bonus is nothing new to the game?  Lets leave aside a judgment of whether thats good or bad (I have), I'm just noting that its new.  Do you agree or not?




I don't even need to go into the amazingly powerful creatures that have always existed that could rule the world, but don't because... well, it would make a bad game. The shadow anyone? And so on and so forth.

But, I don't think its terribly new to have warlike cultures that could stomp on cities if they had the inclination. Take demons: in 3.5, they can get to the material plane with just a _plane shift_, they could overrun the world. There are an infinite number of them after all, and really it would only take some mid-tier creatures to rampage until some high level characters caught wind of it. In that time, they could do more damage than these orcs. And, in 4e I believe they have rules preventing demons from showing up in the World, which is even better, right?

If you want something a bit more mundane than demons, though, you can't go wrong with an ogre magi leading a bunch of ogres and trolls, can you? I mean, what does the common man do to kill a troll anyway? Those torches do less damage than the troll regenerates per round. They might kill one eventually, but _dang_, that casualty count is high!

I think people look at the darkness in the Points of Light conceit as some kind of death trap waiting for people when they leave the light. Instead I like to think of it as the unknown. There are large tracts of nothing too dangerous, leaving your home isn't suicide. But, its dangerous, and sometimes things emerge from there to attack. So maybe every decade some orc raiding parties show up, a village is lost, some adventurers fight them away, and the orcs retreat to start this all over when their population has returned.

But, this is hardly a huge number of 9th level monsters. If the humans pushed back, maybe they could even wipe them out, but they don't know where the orcs are or how to get at them, and if they did they're probably too afraid until they're higher level (and then have bigger fish to fry as always seems to be the case). So, there are a few hundred orcs, most noncombatants, in their own point of light about fifty miles away. Hardly an epic army that can take on humanity and wipe them out.

And, there are some more scattered tribes. But they can't work together, except in the rare case where they recognize each other as of the same tribe. And, they generally fight against each other just as much as the humans. And there are other races. Goblins, ogres, frost giants. And they're all in the same boat, too, I guess. Whatever reason you used in prior editions to explain why fire giants aren't obliterating kingdoms will work here just as well as it did before.



> Do you really think that is the only possible conclusion?




I really do.


----------



## pawsplay (May 10, 2008)

Ultimatecalibur said:
			
		

> The only ways that wound happen is if the boss had already been weakened or that the pcs were a high enough level that the boss was not a threat and at that point is would be pretty obvious that the player had just rolled really bad.




Isn't a situation where the monsters are outmatched precisely what minions are supposed to cover, though?

Instead, I see that a big fireball in 4e will kill about 75% of the orc minions instead of 100% like in 3e.


----------



## Spatula (May 10, 2008)

Scribble said:
			
		

> I think I am going to wait on revising the rules until after I;ve actually seen them all...
> 
> I mean what do we really know about the effects of misses so far? So far I haven't seen any powers that still cause damage after a miss... they just grant neat effects... (admitedly I haven't seen a ton of them.)



Old "reflex save for half" type spells appear to cause half damage on a miss in 4e.  We've seen plenty of wizard powers like that.  And those area effect spells are exactly the type of thing you'd emply to clear out a bunch of minions, who are curiously immune if you flub the attack roll.


----------



## Rechan (May 10, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> Sometimes I think about going into third-party publishing and putting out the Big Book o' Fluff, which would consist of coherent, well-written fluff for the 4E Core books that actually makes sense for the crunch it's describing.



You have competition...

Granted, that has zero crunch, and it applies to nothing. 

But what you're describing basically amounts to "The Slayer's Guide to..." from Mongoose. Granted, there was a teeny bit of crunch in there, but most of it was fluff.


----------



## Celebrim (May 10, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> 12 Times? I mean, that's a lot of misses.




What's the status of that?  Is that a house rule, or do you roll a single dice to make an area of effect attack?


----------



## Ultimatecalibur (May 10, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Isn't a situation where the monsters are outmatched precisely what minions are supposed to cover, though?
> 
> Instead, I see that a big fireball in 4e will kill about 75% of the orc minions instead of 100% like in 3e.




No, minions are not supposed to cover outmatched enemies, but are supposed to represent Mooks, the guys in media that fall down on a successful hit.

Is taking out only 75% of the active creditable threats at one time really so bad? Sure you could take out a swarm of enemies in previous editions, but they usually were not creditable threats when you could do so.


----------



## Iron Sky (May 10, 2008)

AoE attacks, you roll damage once, roll attacks for each target.


----------



## Hussar (May 10, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> How often is a 9th level wizard going to miss hitting a 9th level Orc Warrior Minion?  Not to often by predictions.
> 
> A typical 9th level wizard has:
> +4 to attack from being 9th level
> ...




Shhh, don't bring facts into the discussion.  It only ruins the effect.


----------



## TwinBahamut (May 10, 2008)

The problem with ignoring the "Misses don't affect Minions" rule is that it really messes with a lot of other strategies other than "Fireball them all".

For example, look at two known Fighter at-will powers: Cleave and the one that automatically deals damage on a miss. With the "misses don't affect Minions" rule in place, the latter power is no different than a basic attack, and Cleave is a much better choice. Without that rule, the latter power becomes a guaranteed kill whenever you target a minion, something that might be much better than Cleave because of its reliability (even though Cleave seems designed to be the Fighter's best way to take down minions). The latter power is already the superior one for fighting powerful single foes, it should not be comparable to Cleave when fighting large groups.

The other issue is that is just too powerful for anyone to have the power to just be able to automatically kill something just by targeting them. This is _especially_ true for effects like Fireball that hit a large area. Just giving minions more hitpoints will never be enough to make up for a fireball without turning them into something more than a mere minion. At the very least, giving them enough hitpoints so that they have more than 1 but less than the amount so they can survive a full Fireball seems like needless complication when the current rules give the same results. I think it is a lot better if the Wizard simply kills two-thirds of the minions with a Fireball, and there are still possibly some standing that the Fighter or Ranger can kill. No need for one class to have all of the fun...

Besides, shouldn't Wizard Daily powers be saved for groups of enemies that are actually a threat, rather than groups of minions?


----------



## FadedC (May 10, 2008)

The miss thing doesn't partcularly bother me. Normal monsters can shrug off multiple hits and glancing blows before they are killed. Minions can shrug off multiple glancing blows, but one single direct hit kills them.

If you'd prefer you can imagine an orc warrior as an orc with 70 hit points and a special weakness (killed by any damage not caused by a missed attack).


----------



## pawsplay (May 10, 2008)

Ultimatecalibur said:
			
		

> No, minions are not supposed to cover outmatched enemies, but are supposed to represent Mooks, the guys in media that fall down on a successful hit.
> 
> Is taking out only 75% of the active creditable threats at one time really so bad? Sure you could take out a swarm of enemies in previous editions, but they usually were not creditable threats when you could do so.




And yet, it still seems to me that outmatched mooks are better off in 4e than in 3e. It's paradoxical.


----------



## Aria Silverhands (May 10, 2008)

I like the minion rules and not allowing them to die on a miss is perfectly reasonable.  Just describe them as bleeding or singed.  Maybe dazed.  They are injured, just don't die.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 10, 2008)

One rule you could consider using if you view minions as being physically/skill-wise different then other creatures of its type when it comes to Miss Attacks.

You can have them collapse apparently dead (or just say their stunned) and have them slowly wake up and brush of the debris, etc. and get back into the fight. It shows they were affected while not being based on their HP.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 10, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> And yet, it still seems to me that outmatched mooks are better off in 4e than in 3e. It's paradoxical.



But I think it works better visually. After a big fireball, you expect a few scorched warriors to survive and run away. Killing everyone with one strike would be a unusual event...


----------



## pawsplay (May 10, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> But I think it works better visually. After a big fireball, you expect a few scorched warriors to survive and run away. Killing everyone with one strike would be a unusual event...




Realistlcally? They would all be dead. People caught in fireballs die, because their lungs fry. I am very comfortable with people needing to be All Heroic And Sh-- to survive a fireball strike.


----------



## FadedC (May 10, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> And yet, it still seems to me that outmatched mooks are better off in 4e than in 3e. It's paradoxical.




What is the paradox exactly? 3e had no concept of minions so if you wanted mookss you had to use underleveled opponents who couldn't hurt their enemy. You can still do that in 4e if you really want to for example throwing outclassed lvl 3 orcs raiders against the lvl 10 party rather then lvl 9 orc warriors. The minions are an option if you want your mooks to actually have a chance of being effective.


----------



## Bandreus (May 10, 2008)

I don't really think everyone got the point on minions. Clearly the minion idea was not about throwing a pack of powerfull 1-hit kill mobs at players.

5 Orc Warriors (9th lvl) against a 5 men 1st lvl party would be pretty lame, ie. Not even counting in the "fireball dilemma", the party could bring down all of them in one single round, providing the players roll high enought. While the very same party would need two/three rounds to win an appropriate 1st lvl encounter with no minions.

A 1st level character can even take down a 30th level demon minion with a nat 20, as likelly as making a gnoll minion laugh at the Epic Tier character's unlucky miss. This clearly is not the spot minions are supposed to fill.

Minions are supposed to be the crowds to flood the party. Suppose the 10th level party is attacking the Orcs outpost. Throw at them tens of Orc Warriors, a pack of Eyes of Grumsh/Berserkers and some Chieftein and Bloodragers. The horde would quicklly surround the party, while the heroes are taking down the warrior's number (whome hit point the DM don't have to bother with, they just die on hit or survive on miss). Of course Berserkers and Bloodragers are spreading out damage across the battlefield, and the Warriors who managed to reach melee would be more dangerouse when dieing thanks to theyr leaders' auras.

At this point you see why minions don't die on miss. 1hit point doesn't mean they only need a punch to be killed, it means managing a huge encounter with ease.
Just don't use hundreds of low lvl minions to bother Paragon or Epic chars, or a few high lvl minions against low lvl party. Regular monsters are much better at this.


----------



## functionciccio (May 10, 2008)

I really like the new Orcs.   
They have lots of abilities, however. Lots of stuff to track...
I hope it will not be too complicated to run an encounter with a group of them.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 10, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Realistlcally? They would all be dead. People caught in fireballs die, because their lungs fry. I am very comfortable with people needing to be All Heroic And Sh-- to survive a fireball strike.



I was certainly not talking about "realistically". Realistically, there was no fireball. (maybe a grenade, and these are certainly deadly, but not guaranteed to be so.)


----------



## hong (May 10, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Realistlcally? They would all be dead.




No they wouldn't. Not any more than shooting people is an instant kill.


----------



## Lurks-no-More (May 10, 2008)

On the subject of people wanting more background information on orcs in Monster Manual... 

Every time that WotC has released some fluff, half the people are up in arms because a) they don't want fluff at all, or b) they want different fluff that fits _their_ worlds. I'm sure that whatever they would write about orcs, beyond the very generic, short blurb in the preview, would get exactly the same reaction.


----------



## Lizard (May 10, 2008)

Lurks-no-More said:
			
		

> On the subject of people wanting more background information on orcs in Monster Manual...
> 
> Every time that WotC has released some fluff, half the people are up in arms because a) they don't want fluff at all, or b) they want different fluff that fits _their_ worlds. I'm sure that whatever they would write about orcs, beyond the very generic, short blurb in the preview, would get exactly the same reaction.




As for me, I think that's about the perfect amount of fluff. Just enough so that when people from different gaming groups talk about "orcs", they share a common set of baseline assumptions. From that paragraph, you can build a lot of different ways to fit orcs into your world. The basic orc mechanic -- hitting other people makes them feel better -- provides a cultural hook and tells you a lot about how orc society works, but the exact specifics and details are up to you.

So there's a win for WOTC on that one. When I want a 128 page book on orc culture, I will either buy one or write one.


----------



## D'karr (May 10, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Realistlcally? They would all be dead. People caught in fireballs die, because their lungs fry. I am very comfortable with people needing to be All Heroic And Sh-- to survive a fireball strike.





As soon as the word realistically comes up with regards to a fireball, I'm pretty sure that Hong's principle of thinking too hard about fantasy comes into effect.


----------



## jeffhartsell (May 10, 2008)

Anyone give some thought to the level/XP increase you'd give to the orc chieftan if you gave it the _Blood for Blood _ and _Wounded Retaliation_ abilites? Maybe one more level or maybe make it a level 8 solo plus the "solo" bumps.


----------



## vagabundo (May 10, 2008)

I wonder if there some additional rules regarding minions, and how they interact with some of the edge cases, in the MM?

I'm happy to use "DM common sense" rules for adjudicating oddities regarding Minions. I think it is just the price we have to pay for having an easy to run monster type for massed encounters that are not lethal to the PCs, yet scale a little. 

The _spirit of the rule_ is oft neglected when talking about running these guys. Even in the legal profession it is recognised that the spirit of the law being applied is important, it is why there is a human in the loop who can make decisions (judge/DM)...

I, for one, am looking forward to minion fistfights and 30th level demons against halfling babes.


----------



## zoroaster100 (May 10, 2008)

I generally like these orcs.  I am puzzled why the orc warrior minions are such high level compared to the other orcs in the entry, however.  Why are the other orcs presented 4th level and such, and only one 8th level, but the minions 9th?   It's probably not a big problem, but should the minions be built for the same level as the other orcs?


----------



## jeffhartsell (May 10, 2008)

zoroaster100 said:
			
		

> I generally like these orcs.  I am puzzled why the orc warrior minions are such high level compared to the other orcs in the entry, however.  Why are the other orcs presented 4th level and such, and only one 8th level, but the minions 9th?   It's probably not a big problem, but should the minions be built for the same level as the other orcs?




The warriors are meant to hang out with the chieftain while the drudges hang out with the raiders and berserkers.


----------



## zoroaster100 (May 10, 2008)

That makes sense, jeffhartsell.  Though as a nitpick it is strange the the minions are level 9 while the chieftain himself is only level 8.


----------



## jeffhartsell (May 10, 2008)

zoroaster100 said:
			
		

> That makes sense, jeffhartsell.  Though as a nitpick it is strange the the minions are level 9 while the chieftain himself is only level 8.




Aye. But that leaves room to level up the chieftain up to 5 levels and still have usable minions. Also creates space to have a higher level orc overlord in MM2 that commands chieftains.


----------



## Vempyre (May 10, 2008)

Orc drudge minion

here's a cute idea : add to them the "wizard template" to have them throw magic missiles at will for about 5 dmg per hit!


----------



## UngainlyTitan (May 10, 2008)

Bandreus said:
			
		

> I don't really think everyone got the point on minions. Clearly the minion idea was not about throwing a pack of powerfull 1-hit kill mobs at players.
> 
> 5 Orc Warriors (9th lvl) against a 5 men 1st lvl party would be pretty lame, ie. Not even counting in the "fireball dilemma", the party could bring down all of them in one single round, providing the players roll high enought. While the very same party would need two/three rounds to win an appropriate 1st lvl encounter with no minions.
> 
> ...



Agree completely:

Minions exist to recreate Boromir's Last Stand, or Aragorn (in the movie) mowing down Uruk Hai on the slope covering Frodo's retreat. 

Or to recreate, Rorke's Drift or Night of the Living Dead and countless other situation where a small band hold out or do heroic amound of damage against vast odds. 

Your regular enounters will be as they always were, but when the time comes for the knock down heroic battle the minions appear.


----------



## brehobit (May 10, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Sixth...an orc hospital must consist of a bag of rats. "Whack rat till feel better."




You win the thread!


----------



## pawsplay (May 10, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> No they wouldn't. Not any more than shooting people is an instant kill.




True, they might linger a few minutes, blind, suffocating, and reeling from shock before actually, truly dying, but yeah, they're dead.


----------



## pawsplay (May 10, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> I was certainly not talking about "realistically". Realistically, there was no fireball. (maybe a grenade, and these are certainly deadly, but not guaranteed to be so.)




How about a gasline explosion? Those tend to kill people very reliably.


----------



## pawsplay (May 10, 2008)

D'karr said:
			
		

> As soon as the word realistically comes up with regards to a fireball, I'm pretty sure that Hong's principle of thinking too hard about fantasy comes into effect.




I'm just rebutting the ill-advised appeal to my common sense. No, it does not make any sense to me for a few orcs to come crawling out of a fireball. It should kill anyone who isn't a member of the actor's guild.


----------



## hong (May 11, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> True, they might linger a few minutes, blind, suffocating, and reeling from shock before actually, truly dying, but yeah, they're dead.




Prove it.


----------



## FadedC (May 11, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> I'm just rebutting the ill-advised appeal to my common sense. No, it does not make any sense to me for a few orcs to come crawling out of a fireball. It should kill anyone who isn't a member of the actor's guild.




So when non minion orcs come crawling out of a fireball it's realistic, but when minion orcs come crawling out of one it's unrealistic. Right........

Or perhaps your saying that everyone should die from a fireball regardless of their level or hit points. The spell text could just say "kills everyone".


----------



## PeterWeller (May 11, 2008)

It seems that if you can't accept a 9th level minion having 1HP, it's because you can't accept HP as a totally subjective, plot-based-not-endurance-based value, and in that case, there's really nothing to be done.  One of the basic assumptions of 4E bothers you, and 1HP minions are just a symptom of that assumption.  If you don't like that assumption, you're not going to like anything that comes from it.  There's nothing wrong with not liking that assumption, but if you don't like it 4E D&D will sadly and probably not be the game for you.


----------



## Cryptos (May 11, 2008)

I haven't gone back to read the last 18 pages yet, but I just tried out the orcs scaled down to level one, against some PCs I had made up based on what info is available: a half-elf Warlock, an Elf Warlord, a Dragonborn Rogue, and a Halfling Fighter.  I decided that it would be very boring to just use minions, so I scaled down an Eye of Grunnish as well.  So it was 12 Drudges and one Eye against 4 PCs.  I kept it simple, the groups see each other across a large field and leap to the attack.

I caught a few glimpses of the discussion currently taking place, so I'll agree that minions are best used to supplement a leader character.  Without the Eye, this would have been much more one-sided.  And frankly, perhaps even boring after the first couple rounds.

It was an interesting encounter.  As I was doing everything myself and it was my first full-scale test of pre-release 4e rules, it probably took longer than it should.  They started about 30 squares apart, and initially there was a lot of charging action taking place.  The Eye held back and let the minions form a defensive line about four or five squares ahead of him.  (The three melee PCs won highest initiatives, so they had closed most of the distance initially.)

I thought about the Eye's Death Strike ability for a little bit, because it says orcs in range get an extra attack when reduced to zero hit points, but minions don't exactly go to zero HP, they just die.  So I wasn't really sure....  I decided to let them get in a final swipe or swing wildly at the PCs as they went down through the Death Strike ability, anyway, as that seemed to be the intent.  This is probably where half of the damage the PCs took came from.  And they were only hit because the Eye of Grunnish was using the Eye of Wrath power to reduce the PC's AC.

However, with the Halfling Fighter, I eventually realized I could avoid all of those Death Strikes when she took someone down.  Tide of Iron lets you push someone away with your shield after you hit them, so I let her stab an orc, and then kick and shove with her shield to push them off her blade and away from the PC's front line, so they weren't in range to retaliate before dying.

Having come up against the orcs and established a front line, however, the Eye was able to use the Chaos Hammer area of attack against two of the three melee characters.  The minions were mostly just serving to distract the melee PCs and keep them from going directly after the real threat, and provided him with a defensive line.  They slowed down the PCs and tried to herd them into positions where the Eye could take advantage.  While minions can be used alone, I wouldn't.  They seem to be best used as movable, destructible obstacles that can cause a little damage.

For the Warlock, however, the minions weren't so much obstacles as stepping stones.  This was my first actual tactic in the encounter, and one of my favorites.  While his melee friends charged into battle, he decided he was going after what appeared to be the leader.  He would move up, mark the nearest minion, kill that minion, and get the Fey Pact's teleport to move ever closer to the Eye of Grunnish.  Move-Curse-Attack-Teleport.  Move-Curse-Attack-Teleport.  He did that a couple of times (as the groups started 30 squares apart) and finally got in range, but got the Eye's attention.  I think if actual players had been doing this, the warlock would have had the most fun initially.

So, the lesson here is that minions are almost like terrain features.  Use them as damaging obstacles or walls to protect the real threat, or as objects for the PCs to play off of by using their abilities and keep things interesting.  But don't use them alone if you want an interesting encounter.

All told, one character nearly got bloodied, had to burn a healing surge during the fight with help from the Warlord's Inspiring Word, and they all could have stood to use one by the time it was over, so one healing surge per character was effectively spent.  Other than that, no expendable resources were used up.  It seemed a little challenging at first because of sheer numbers, and then when it was down to just the PCs and the Eye I was worried they wouldn't do enough damage to him to kill him before he got to use the Warrior's Surge to keep healing himself, but other than that the outcome was never really in doubt.  The encounter probably would have entertained and engaged actual players, but wouldn't cause them to break much of a sweat.  Of course, I was a little slow on the uptake on some possible strategies (like the fighter using Tide of Iron to avoid the retaliatory strikes from the minions allowed by the Eye's Death Strike ability) because I was trying to run all the characters myself.  Actual players, focused only on their own character sheets, probably would have made things slightly easier for their PCs.

Mostly what I took away from it was a general sense of 4e, and that minions aren't something to use alone, unless you want a dry and predictable battle, but they can be useful to stall PCs so that the true threats to them have time to act.

Don't know if that adds anything to the discussion or not.  (I guess I'll have to go back and see.)

Edit:  In reference to whether it's worth it to scale or not, and pitting level one PCs against  higher level minions.  My strong opinion:  Yes, scale them down.  It's not about how easy it is for the PCs to take down minions.  It's about how easy it would have been for the minions to have killed at least one PC in a tide of orcs, if their attack bonuses and damage hadn't been reduced by scaling.  They aren't any easier or harder to kill depending on level, I'd imagine.  But they can hurt a lot before you're able to take them all down.  The first character to gain initiative charged right at the orcs, and got hit four times in the first round (of actual fighting, after distance was closed) because the Eye reduced his AC and then the minions started whacking on him.  If the minions hadn't been scaled, it could have eventually turned ugly in terms of damage.

Again, think of them as damaging, destructible terrain features.  Like a wall of thorns that moves around and grunts.


----------



## Ravingdork (May 11, 2008)

Cryptos said:
			
		

> I thought about the Eye's Death Strike ability for a little bit, because it says orcs in range get an extra attack when reduced to zero hit points, but minions don't exactly go to zero HP, they just die.  So I wasn't really sure....  I decided to let them get in a final swipe or swing wildly at the PCs as they went down through the Death Strike ability, anyway, as that seemed to be the intent.  This is probably where half of the damage the PCs took came from.  And they were only hit because the Eye of Grunnish was using the Eye of Wrath power to reduce the PC's AC.
> 
> However, with the Halfling Fighter, I eventually realized I could avoid all of those Death Strikes when she took someone down.  Tide of Iron lets you push someone away with your shield after you hit them, so I let her stab an orc, and then kick and shove with her shield to push them off her blade and away from the PC's front line, so they weren't in range to retaliate before dying.




Minions benefit from Death Strike since they have at least 1 hp to lose. Also, Tide of Iron wouldn't normally have prevented Death Strike from occuring since the damage is applied BEFORE the push and shift effect. Basically it would be attack, damage, Death Strike, then shift (there would be no need to push since the minion would be dead) in that order.


----------



## Cryptos (May 11, 2008)

raven_dark64 said:
			
		

> Minions benefit from Death Strike since they have at least 1 hp to lose. Also, Tide of Iron wouldn't normally have prevented Death Strike from occuring since the damage is applied BEFORE the push and shift effect. Basically it would be attack, damage, Death Strike, then shift (there would be no need to push since the minion would be dead) in that order.




When I decided on that, I was reading the Tide of Iron ability as one continuous and fluid motion, but I can see your argument for it based on the timing as the orcs attack when reduced to 0HP, and they are reduced to 0HP at the moment the attack is made.  But I liked the visual of this little halfling warrior chick stabbing orcs and then shoving them off her blade and away from her where they collapse in heap, so I'd probably allow it if a PC came up with it... at least a few times, just for adding some RP to the action.


----------



## ShockMeSane (May 11, 2008)

Cryptos said:
			
		

> When I decided on that, I was reading the Tide of Iron ability as one continuous and fluid motion, but I can see your argument for it based on the timing as the orcs attack when reduced to 0HP, and they are reduced to 0HP at the moment the attack is made.  But I liked the visual of this little halfling warrior chick stabbing orcs and then shoving them off her blade and away from her where they collapse in heap, so I'd probably allow it if a PC came up with it... at least a few times, just for adding some RP to the action.




And as many people apparently fail to see, this is exactly what DM's are for. Playing exactly within the rules all the time gets exceedingly tiresome. Probably because all your players have to do is learn to read a set of not-particularly complicated rules to be the master of all at their disposal. If my player wanted to argue that his shield strike bashed the minion back in one fluid motion before it could strike back with it's death blow, I'd probably react favorably to it at least once, and perhaps require a roll afterwards. But hey, who needs to encourage inventive thinking?

I don't play D&D to worry about MtG-style stack resolution. I play it for the roleplaying and the crazy situations my players can create.

I'm sure other people will disagree, and this is by no means an attack on any specific person, but rather a view I've developed from the attitude of many forum-goers.

[Edited for stupid spelling mistake. There may be more, but it's late]


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 11, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> How about a gasline explosion? Those tend to kill people very reliably.



Hmm. Interesting idea, but that totally does not match the mechanics of fireballs. They don't kill everyone. Never have. So they can't be like a gasline explosion. (Assuming that gasline explosion are in fact always 100 % lethal, which might be true. I certainly don#t want to find out myself...)


----------



## ShockMeSane (May 11, 2008)

Because Fireballs in D&D (or basically anything in D&D) always matched anything close to any sort of real life physics. I'm pretty sure that being near the spot a giant orb of explosive death occurs is always more dangerous than being on the absolute outskirts, but D&D never modeled that.

We have no idea the amount of heat involved in a Fireball spell. Why should a human who has successfully killed a dragon be able to survive in a 1,000+ celsius environment? I'm pretty sure that would instantly vaporize any part of you if you didn't leave the immediate area, and D&D never modeled a reflex save as immediately relocating outside of the AoE effect.

Was that not a dealbreaker?

This argument is absurd. D&D has never remotely modeled realism in any sense.


----------



## WhatGravitas (May 11, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Hmm. Interesting idea, but that totally does not match the mechanics of fireballs. They don't kill everyone. Never have. So they can't be like a gasline explosion. (Assuming that gasline explosion are in fact always 100 % lethal, which might be true. I certainly don#t want to find out myself...)



Also: Gasline explosions produce pressure. A fireball is _nothing_ like an explosion, because it only deals fire damage. It's more like a firecracker filled with thermite - low pressure, but very high heat - though it burns out quickly (and doesn't stick, like napalm). Though I dunno how to model the fact, that they don't put everything on fire.

Perhaps a fireball is more like a microwave with flashy CGI.

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Charwoman Gene (May 11, 2008)

Cryptos said:
			
		

> But I liked the visual of this little halfling warrior chick stabbing orcs and then shoving them off her blade and away from her where they collapse in heap, so I'd probably allow it if a PC came up with it... at least a few times, just for adding some RP to the action.





I have a non-stack resolution problem with it.  (I'm just supporting the alternate view with RP.  YMMV)  Tide of iron is one continuous motion in my head.  It is pushing forward with your shield while attacking the enemy.  Bull rush with weapon damage.  You shift AS you attack, staying adjacent to the enemy, so whenever the timing of the kill, the orc gets that last swing.  The orc isn't dead until they get that swing, think of it like adrenaline, making these guys super annoying minions to clean up.  Allowing a fight level 1 at-will power to wipe out half the coolness of the Eye of Gruumsh is sucking the flavor out of the orc.  Again, YMMV.


----------



## BeauNiddle (May 11, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> I have a non-stack resolution problem with it.  (I'm just supporting the alternate view with RP.  YMMV)  Tide of iron is one continuous motion in my head.  It is pushing forward with your shield while attacking the enemy.  Bull rush with weapon damage.  You shift AS you attack, staying adjacent to the enemy, so whenever the timing of the kill, the orc gets that last swing.  The orc isn't dead until they get that swing, think of it like adrenaline, making these guys super annoying minions to clean up.  Allowing a fight level 1 at-will power to wipe out half the coolness of the Eye of Gruumsh is sucking the flavor out of the orc.  Again, YMMV.




I know you said YMMV (twice) but I just thought I'd mention that in my mind this is what marks the fighter out as a skilled combatant. The fighter has Tide of Iron. The Rogue is so fast he can shift away before the final blow lands (he has some powers that allow shifts after a blow). This is what makes the classes exceptional. The cleric, warlord, etc. have to risk a retaliation yet the specially trained professionals have a counter.

The downside for the fighter is by shifting the orc away he runs the risk of the orc not taking enough damage to die and ALSO being outside the fighters threat range. So do you Tide and risk the orc running away and hitting the mage or do you use a more damaging attack and risk the retaliation.

THAT makes an interesting tactical choice, rather than merely disabling how Tide of Iron works.

[I'd say the rules should be interpreted as immediate reactions taking place after the action that triggers them. Tide of Iron is one action for both the attack and shift. So I'd rule the orc gets a death flail at where the fighter would have been if he hadn't Tided. The orc is cool for getting a death attack. The Fighter is even cooler for having out maneuvered the enemy. Please replace cool with Rouse(tm) acceptable wording]


----------



## Charwoman Gene (May 11, 2008)

BeauNiddle said:
			
		

> I know you said YMMV (twice)




It's a mystical utterance and ward against flames.  YMMV

I think you are misreading Tide of Iron.  Actually no, I am.  I thought your shift was mandatory.  Bleah, I don't like the power as much.


----------



## SilverAgent (May 11, 2008)

My interpretation of the Tide of Iron vs Death Strike is simple:  Death Strike is not listed as an Immediate Interrupt.  Thus, it can't 'interrupt' Tide of Iron.  A skilled shield-fighter thus can deal with it simply.

This is from what I've garnered from just reading spoilers and so on.  If the books say otherwise through some means, cool!  Just how I read things at the moment.


----------



## Marius Delphus (May 12, 2008)

As a complete and total non sequitur, there are a large number of small things I dislike about the layout of the Orc pages (presumably, I'll like the MM as a whole about as much). In the spirit of the Web site redesign undertaken earlier by a fan and professional Web designer, here's my take on the Orc pages of the Fourth Edition Monster Manual.


----------



## Scribble (May 12, 2008)

Marius Delphus said:
			
		

> As a complete and total non sequitur, there are a large number of small things I dislike about the layout of the Orc pages (presumably, I'll like the MM as a whole about as much). In the spirit of the Web site redesign undertaken earlier by a fan and professional Web designer, here's my take on the Orc pages of the Fourth Edition Monster Manual.




It's a nice design, but I like the original better for these reasons:

1. I like the stuff like "knowledge check results" at the end. (Though I would prefer the standard orc party info at the begining as in your design.) 

I prefer the stat stuff up front ready to go, so when I need a quick encounter, I can just turn to the Orc (or whatever monster) page and be good to go... Instead of turign to the orc section and then paging through to the stats. (Not a big deal, but if it saves me a couple of moments overasll...)

2. I like the way they did the Tactics stuff..

The way you did it kind of gets lost in the stat block for me. I have to skim down through the stat block to find the tactics. The WOTC design kind of pops out for me. If I want stat block I see the stat block.. if I want to quickly refference the tactics... there they are.

The fact that I might not even use the tactics in the first place also means putting them as a part of the block makes it look crowded.

Finally, I think the way the tactics are in there sort of breaks up the different stat blocks nicely.

Yours has a better "cohesiveness" feeling to it, and looks slightly more organized, but it seems to take a moment longer for my eyes/brain to pull out a different stat block. 

The way the WOTC one has it set up makes my eyes just kind of bounce from one block to the next. Automatic eye movement makes it easier for my brain to switch to the different stat blocks.


----------



## Marius Delphus (May 12, 2008)

Thank you for your quick and thoughtful comments!



			
				Scribble said:
			
		

> It's a nice design, but I like the original better for these reasons:
> 
> 1. I like the stuff like "knowledge check results" at the end. (Though I would prefer the standard orc party info at the begining as in your design.)...



I disagree with doing this for the following reason: I want the DM to have all the "fluff" in one place.



> 2. I like the way they did the Tactics stuff..
> ...
> The way the WOTC one has it set up makes my eyes just kind of bounce from one block to the next. Automatic eye movement makes it easier for my brain to switch to the different stat blocks.



This, you've persuaded me about.

Turns out, though, that I needed little time (or impetus) to modify the PDF to address both your points. 

EDIT: As I'm an inveterate tinkerer, I had to give it one more go. I think Version 3's my personal favorite.


----------



## Dalamar (May 13, 2008)

I think the biggest problem with Marius' design is that it is three pages, so fitting it with the monsters before/after it is going to be harder than if it was two or four pages since WotC has specifically said that they're doing their best that a new monster type starts at the top of a page and there will be as little page flipping required as possible.


----------



## Marius Delphus (May 13, 2008)

Thanks for having a look and commenting.

Did you see the original WOTC version? It's also three pages. If I understand correctly, the WOTC version consists of final pages directly from the Monster Manual. The goal of my exercise was simply to see if I could get the same material in the same number of pages in a way that appealed more to me.


----------



## Dalamar (May 14, 2008)

Hrm, that's odd... I was certain I counted the original version being four pages when I looked at it the first time. 

One other thing that popped up about the editied version is that the beginning fluff text splits oddly. While the coloured for Encounter Groups gives some cue, my eyes don't flow naturally to the adjacent column when reading the intro text. There would need to be a dividing line or something similar, but that would seem extraneous for such a small block of text.

Would it be possible for you to do a similar version of the gnolls spread from way back in DDXP for comparison purposes?


----------



## Marius Delphus (May 14, 2008)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> There would need to be a dividing line or something similar, but that would seem extraneous for such a small block of text.



I thought of four ways to handle this (see attached JPEG). #3 is my personal favorite.



> Would it be possible for you to do a similar version of the gnolls spread from way back in DDXP for comparison purposes?



All I can find is low-res photos of these, which I can't even read. If you know where I can find high-quality images, then sure, I could take a crack at it.


----------

