# Anyone else bothered by all the blond elves in the LotR movie?



## Dragongirl (Oct 3, 2002)

Legolas and all the elves of Lorien that I recall were blond.  Most of those elves should have been sindar and I just don't think blond should be so prevelent.  Now Galadriel being blonde I could see, she had Vanyar ancestry.  The Vanyar were named so because it means fair referring to their hair, so that to me means that the other elves did not have blond as a common hair color.  Not saying other elven races could not have blond, but surely they should not ALL of had blond!


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## Welverin (Oct 3, 2002)

Didnn't bother me, but I do remember finding it a bit odd the first time I saw the original trailer and saw Legolas. Kind of a "he has blond hair?" thing for no particular reason.

p.s. Can I have a position in the army General?


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## Dagger75 (Oct 3, 2002)

Makes you wonder why some elves get a +2 int bonus.  Those could be the non blond elves I guess.


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## durath (Oct 3, 2002)

*there were 2*

Hey now, there will be no broad generalizations here!!! Elrond and Arwen did not have blonde hair. There, see, don't you feel foolish now. It was only hundreds of blonde elves, not all of them. 

Seriously, I do seem to remember somewhere in the Silmarillion it mentioning that some elves had blonde hair and some had dark hair.

Was it possibly Maeglin, the "dark elf", that had darker hair? It also seems that the elves of Mirkwood had dark hair. Didn't some of the sons of Feanor have descriptions mentioning dark hair?

Darn you dragongirl, now I will be forced to look this up. pah!!!


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## durath (Oct 3, 2002)

*found one*

My previous post was a bit off. It seems that Eol was the one neamed "dark elf". His son was Maeglin which means "sharp glance". 

In any case in the chapter, "of Maeglin" in the Silmarillion it gives a vivid descpription of the son of Eol and Aredhel. 

"As Maeglin grew to full stature he resembled in face and form rather his kindred of the Noldor, but in mood and mind he was the son of his father. His words were few save in matters that touched him near, and then his voice had a power to move those that heard him and to overthrow those who withstood him. He was tall and black haired; his eyes were dark, yet bright and keen as the eyes of the Noldor, and his skin white."

From this passage you could argue that the Noldor had, for the most part, dark hair since it states that "in face and form" Maeglin resembled his Noldorin ancestry.

In any case, chalk up one more dark haired elf!!!!

Edit: I always forget to answer the original question of a thread.

Nope, all the blonde elves didn't bother me. Legolas is never described one way or the other and I was under the impression that most of the elves of Lorien were blonde. It was a little strange but I feel it also added a bit to the otherworldly nature of the elves.


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## Holy Bovine (Oct 3, 2002)

Welverin said:
			
		

> *
> p.s. Can I have a position in the army General? *




Didn't you hear?  Another board 'out there' promoted all of ENWorld to the rank of General Smartass (I won't even tell you what they promoted the Mods and Admins too  )


As far as blond elves go I hear they are all going to be extinct by 2250....


Oh wait that's Human blonds!  


Personally didn't bother me and I felt it looked really good as it was an easy way for Peter Jackson to differentiate the 'lothlorien' Elves from the 'regular' elves (ie Elrond,  Arwen and most of the elves shown in the beginning battle at Mount Doom).

I could never get through the Silmarillion so i don't know about this Sindar/Vanyar thing.


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## ColonelHardisson (Oct 3, 2002)

Based on my recollection of the Silmarillion and the LotR books, most elves were blonde. The Noldor seemed to have been dark-haired, except for the house of Finwe, particularly the descendants of Fingolfin and Finarfin (such as Galadriel). Half elves like Elrond, his brother Elros (who later chose to be a man rather than an elf) and Arwen seem to have been dark haired. 

Most of the elves Tolkien described in LotR seem to have been blonde, such as Glorfindel:

"Glorfindel was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength."

- _The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter 1: Many Meetings._

"Suddenly into view below came a white horse, gleaming in the shadows, running swiftly. In the dusk its headstall flickered and flashed, as if it were studded with gems like living stars. The rider’s cloak streamed behind him, and his hood was thrown back; his golden hair flowed shimmering in the wind of his speed. To Frodo it appeared that a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a veil."

- _The Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter XII: Flight to the Ford_


This also points up something interesting about elves, possibly just the Noldor. Has nothing to do with the thread topic, but it's cool:

"They bore no lights, yet as they walked a shimmer, like the light of the moon above the rim of the hills before it rises, seemed to fall about their feet." 

- _The Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter III: Three IS Company_

They glow!


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## LostSoul (Oct 3, 2002)

At least they made the hot elf chick a brunette!  I just don't like blondes that much.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 3, 2002)

Well my premise is, that since the Vanyar elves were named because of their light hair that....
1) Most Vanyar must have had light hair.
2) Most Noldor and Sindar elves must not have had blond hair.

By the way blond is the correct spelling for males, blonde for females.


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## ColonelHardisson (Oct 3, 2002)

They may not have been blonde, but I don't think the Sindar were necessarily dark haired either. Celeborn - a Sinda - wasn't blonde, but...

"...the hair of the Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright; but no sign of age was upon them..."

- _The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter VII: The Mirror of Galadriel_

This doesn't seem to be the silver of old age, obviously. It seems to be a silver much like the color of the metal, as analogous to it as Galadriel's blonde hair color was analogous to gold. Further, Celeborn's hair seemed to suggest that the name for the Sindar - which means "grey ones" - was a reference, at least in part, to their hair. So, while they may not have been blonde, they weren't brunettes.

Another possible clue as to whether most elves were blonde comes indirectly, in reference to blonde hobbits:

"The Fallohides were fairer of skin and also of hair[...]The Fallohides, the least numerous, were a northerly branch. They were more friendly with Elves than the other Hobbits were..."

- _The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue_

Tolkien seems to be suggesting the coloration of the other races via the Hobbit strain that resembled them - the Harfoots, who were friendly with Dwarves, were browner of skin. The Stoors were more friendly with Men, so presumably resembled them. So, if one connects the dots, if the Fallohides are blonde, then it's quite possible that Elves were also, for the most part. If Tolkien's Elves weren't meant by him to be blonde, but darker haired, I would guess he would have described the Fallohides as dark haired. 

That's just how I see it.


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## ColonelHardisson (Oct 3, 2002)

Another relevant passage:

"...and at the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown of leaves upon his golden hair, very much as Bombur had described the figure in his dream. The elvish folk were passing bowls from hand to hand and across the fires, and some were harping and many were singing. Their gleaming hair was twined with flowers..."

_- The Hobbit, Chapter 8: Flies and Spiders_

The woodland king is, of course, Thranduil, a Sinda and the father of Legolas. So it appears that the Sindar could also be blonde, and it seems there is a good chance Legolas was also. What Tolkien meant by "gleaming hair" in reference to the other elves is debatable, but I would venture to guess that he wouldn't describe dark hair as "gleaming." That doesn't necessarily mean they were blonde, but it seems to imply a light hair color.


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## Wormwood (Oct 4, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> This also points up something interesting about elves, possibly just the Noldor. Has nothing to do with the thread topic, but it's cool:
> [snip]
> They glow! *




The upcoming Special Edition DVD will contain a scene where Frodo and Sam watch a procession of elves on their way to the Grey Havens. IIRC, the elves are outlined with a soft silver glow.

And they're blonde.


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## Sulimo (Oct 4, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Based on my recollection of the Silmarillion and the LotR books, most elves were blonde. The Noldor seemed to have been dark-haired, except for the house of Finwe, particularly the descendants of Fingolfin and Finarfin (such as Galadriel).*




Yeah. The Noldor are dark haired generally. The blondeness of the line of Finwe is due to the fact that his second wife was one of the Vanyar. His first marriage producing Feanor and his descendants who were dark haired.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 4, 2002)

This reminds me of a great Tolkien Fan I know - he didn't want to watch the movie because he believed it would be bad and so on. But he saw some of the TV trailers, and he rambled about Legolas blond hair, because Tolkien described it being "gold hair", and so he wanted to see gold, not white/blond.

It seemed to be impossible to convince him that "gold hair" is a common term for blond. (And that Tolkien meant it this way...)
Maybe it is because he is not a native Englisch or German speaker...

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Welverin (Oct 4, 2002)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> *
> Didn't you hear?  Another board 'out there' promoted all of ENWorld to the rank of General Smartass (I won't even tell you what they promoted the Mods and Admins too  )*




Nah, I haven't been around much of late.

p.s. Here's a song for you.


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## Holy Bovine (Oct 5, 2002)

That was great Welverin.


You know I have a folder on my computer just for cow links - there is some wierd stuff on the internet about cows.

But it all comes to the Holy Bovine


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## Welverin (Oct 5, 2002)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> *That was great Welverin.
> *




Since you liked that, give some of their other songs a try. They aren't related cow related, but still good.


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## Sepulchrave II (Oct 7, 2002)

> "Glorfindel was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength."
> 
> - The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter 1: Many Meetings.




Glorfindel actually translates as "Golden-Haired," which would suggest to me that it is a sufficiently unusual characteristic to merit a name. Tolkien himself speculated whether 3rd Age Glorfindel was the same person as 1st Age Glorfindel (who perished in the flight from Gondolin): returned from the Undying Lands to bring succour to the Elves. He is suitably vague, of course.




> They may not have been blonde, but I don't think the Sindar were necessarily dark haired either. Celeborn - a Sinda - wasn't blonde, but...
> 
> "...the hair of the Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright; but no sign of age was upon them..."




In the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in _Unfinished Tales_, Tolkien speculates that Celeborn may not have been a Sinda, but a Telerin Elf from Valinor. Again, he is suitably indefinite and vague.

Re: Finarfin



> Alone among the Noldorin Princes, he and his descendants had golden hair, derived from his mother Indis, who was a Vanyarin Elf.




_Silmarillion_, Index. 




> Tolkien seems to be suggesting the coloration of the other races via the Hobbit strain that resembled them




Ooh, Colonel. That's a bit of a stretch. In disposition and demeanour, yes, but I think that the fact that Fallohides are blonde is indicative that Elves are also may be stretching things a bit. With the Hobbits (3 strains), Tolkien also had this whole analogue to the invasion of Britain by the English in 5th century happening also.

Jutes, Angles and Saxons = Fallohides, Harfeet and Stoors.

Note that "Marcha" and "Blanca" - the legendary leaders in the Hobbit migrations - are exact corollaries of "Hengest" and "Horsa" (Two brothers who, according to tradition, founded the first English kindgoms in Britain).  All are words which mean "Horse." Marcha=Mearh=Mare etc.

I've always felt that _all_ elves are black-haired, except maybe some Telerin silver-hairs, and the Vanyar. Then I read this:



> "...and at the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown of leaves upon his golden hair, very much as Bombur had described the figure in his dream.




You've got a damn good one there. Guess I need to rethink.

On an unrelated note, did you know that Cirdan had a beard?


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## ColonelHardisson (Oct 7, 2002)

Sepulchrave II said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Ooh, Colonel. That's a bit of a stretch. In disposition and demeanour, yes, but I think that the fact that Fallohides are blonde is indicative that Elves are also may be stretching things a bit. *




Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure if or why Tolkien would be careful to note that each strain of Hobbit was friendly with another race, give them some of the characteristics of that race, and then not mean to suggest that those Hobbits physically resembled that race. I mean, Tolkien was, ultimately, making this stuff up, not reporting historical fact. He also wasn't above basing the appearance of the Dunedain on descriptions of Atlanteans, which suggests to me that he was willing to make a number of unusual connections in his literature. But, you're right that it may be stretching - but I'm not the only one to make the connection. Halflings in D&D were divided into three strains also - Hairfeet, Stouts, and Tallfellows. Each of them resembles one of the bigger races - human, dwarf, elf - physically and culturally. The point being that seeing such a connection isn't unique to me.

I always assumed all Tolkien elves were blonde, and, apparently, so did Peter Jackson and a lot of other Tolkien fans, judging by how prevalent the blonde elf stereotype is. A lot of this has to do with the direct descriptions of Galadriel and Glorfindel, as well as Tolkien's tendency to describe the elves, no matter which strain, with the word "fair." "Fair" means blonde to lots of English-speakers, but can easily refer to skin color. 

All in all, I tend to think that the elves are colored thus, hair-wise:

Silvan or Wood-elves -  Blondish, strawberry blonde

Sindar - blonde or silver

Noldor - dark haired, blonde in the house of Finwe (except Feanor)

One could make the assumption that perhaps Tolkien meant for the Noldor to be very different from other elves, and gave them dark hair to physically distinguish them. 

Of course, this is all just guesswork on my part, based on what I got from Tolkien's writing.


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## Darkness (Oct 8, 2002)

Welverin said:
			
		

> *p.s. Can I have a position in the army General? *



Be careful - there are two posters around here who are "*B*othered *A*bout *D*ragongirl's *A*im."

So if you join her army, you might be sent out to smite them - which could be quite dangerous...


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## tleilaxu (Oct 11, 2002)

Of course, if we are going by the old Hobbit cartoon, then elves have blue skin and look stupid.


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## Welverin (Oct 11, 2002)

tleilaxu said:
			
		

> *Of course, if we are going by the old Hobbit cartoon, then elves have blue skin and look stupid. *




Let's ignore that then.


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## Agback (Oct 12, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> All in all, I tend to think that the elves are colored thus, hair-wise:
> 
> Silvan or Wood-elves -  Blondish, strawberry blonde
> ...




If I remember correctly it was only Finwë's descendants in 'The Golden House of Finarfin' who are blond. His descendants through Fëanor and Fingolfin by implication show the pale-with-dark-hair coloration usual to the Noldor.

Regards,


Agback


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## ColonelHardisson (Oct 12, 2002)

Agback said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If I remember correctly it was only Finwë's descendants in 'The Golden House of Finarfin' who are blond. His descendants through Fëanor and Fingolfin by implication show the pale-with-dark-hair coloration usual to the Noldor.
> 
> ...




Fingolfin was also blonde. His mother was a Vanya.


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## Sepulchrave II (Oct 12, 2002)

> *Alone* among the Noldorin Princes, he and his descendants had golden hair, derived from his mother Indis, who was a Vanyarin Elf.




Entry for "Finarfin" in the index of _The Silmarillion_, p.319. First American Edition, 1977. (Emphasis mine).


i.e. only Finarfin, Finrod, Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel were blond.

Celebrian, presumably inherited her father's silver hair colour, not her mother's (hence the name). IIRC Arwen was definitely dark-haired. Technically all were 'descendants of Finarfin.'

Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Gil-galad etc. were not golden-haired, despite descent from Indis. And Aredhel is specifically stated as having dark hair.

Note that the quote is 'among the Noldorin Princes,' however - not the Noldor in general. It's probably reasonable to assume that interbreeding between the Noldor and Vanyar wasn't that uncommon when they lived in friendship in Tirion together - maybe that's how Glorfindel fits into the scheme.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 12, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> All in all, I tend to think that the elves are colored thus, hair-wise:
> 
> Silvan or Wood-elves -  Blondish, strawberry blonde
> ...




I think you are missing something.
Silmarillion pg 441 "Vanyar  The first host of the Eldar.....The name (singular Vanya) means 'the Fair', referring to the golden hair of the Vanyar; see Finarfin...."

so.....
1) The Vanyar were different enough with their golden hair to be named after it.
2) If it was different enough to be named for, then the other elven groups must not have had blond hair commonly.  Not saying it didn't happen but at least MOST of them must not have had blond hair.

Obviously the Noldor could have intermarried more than just the famous case of Indis, but I doubt it happened enough to make most of the Noldor blond.  Most of the Noldor were either dead or decided to return to Valinor at the end of the First Age after they were forgiven.  So, who were the elves of Lorien?  Some of course could have been Noldor following the last of the great Noldor leaders left, but I believe most would have been Sindar or Nandor.

In any case, having already established my arguement why most elves were not blond I think it was unreasonable to have EVERY single elf that was in the group that captured the company be blond.


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## ColonelHardisson (Oct 12, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> In any case, having already established my arguement why most elves were not blond I think it was unreasonable to have EVERY single elf that was in the group that captured the company be blond.   *




I don't think you established that argument. I firmly established that Thranduil was blonde, and he wasn't a Vanya, clearly. The vast majority of elves were Silvan or Wood-elves, and I still have yet to find a definitive Tolkien quote about them. Has anyone seen any of Tolkien's drawings and paintings with depictions of  elves? That would be a definitive answer.

Sepulchrave, I stand corrected on that matter. Where is that quote from?


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## Sulimo (Oct 13, 2002)

Sepulchrave II said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Entry for "Finarfin" in the index of The Silmarillion, p.319. First American Edition, 1977. (Emphasis mine).
> 
> Note that the quote is 'among the Noldorin Princes,' however - not the Noldor in general. It's probably reasonable to assume that interbreeding between the Noldor and Vanyar wasn't that uncommon when they lived in friendship in Tirion together - maybe that's how Glorfindel fits into the scheme. *




I dont know about that. If there was intermarriage, I find it hard to believe that NO Vanyar went with the Noldor back to Middle Earth. 

As for Glorfindel...I thought he was of the House of Finarfin.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 13, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *I don't think you established that argument. I firmly established that Thranduil was blonde, and he wasn't a Vanya, clearly. *




I never said there were no blonds amongst the other elven peoples.  Only that there would be no reason to call the Vanyar that name if they were not peculiar in being the only elven subrace to be MOSTLY blond.


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## Agback (Oct 13, 2002)

Sepulchrave II said:
			
		

> *i.e. only Finarfin, Finrod, Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel were blond.*




There are some reasons to think that there must have been other members of the House of Finarfin than those you list. For instance, the leader of the party of elves Frod, Sam, and Pippin meet in the Woody End introduces himself as "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finarfin". His name strongly suggests that there is something golden about him.

Then there is Glorfindel, the Prince of the House of the Golden Flower in Gondolin, who was definitely blond. Is he not a prince? Is he a Vanya who went along with Turgon for reasons undisclosed? Or is he a member of the House of Finarfin?

Perhaps the marriages and children of the lesser members of the family were omitted from the genealogicl charts to make them more compact and clearer.

Regards,


Agback
Regards,


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## Agback (Oct 13, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Fingolfin was also blonde. His mother was a Vanya. *




His mother was a vanya, right enough. But can you cite a statement by Tolkien that Fingolfin himself was blond?

Not every son of a blonde is blond, and 'The Silmarillion' does say that the House of Finarfin "alone among the princes of the Noldor" were blond.

Regards,


Agback


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## ColonelHardisson (Oct 13, 2002)

Agback said:
			
		

> *
> 
> His mother was a vanya, right enough. But can you cite a statement by Tolkien that Fingolfin himself was blond?
> 
> ...




Perhaps if you read the rest of the thread, you'll see this was already resolved.


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## ColonelHardisson (Oct 13, 2002)

Y'know, it's ironic. Over at the Middle Earth d20 conversion site we haven't seen much in the way of submissions for a while now, and our NPC contest has yet to receive a single entry, yet there can be a vigorous thread here over the hair color of Tolkien's elves. C'mon, folks, spend some of this energy on bringing your interpretation of Tolkien to the d20 community! We welcome new material! If you want to write an essay about what the elves looked like, with citations of the text - please send it to us!


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## ColonelHardisson (Oct 13, 2002)

Hey, I just checked, and we finally received an entry in the Middle Earth d20 NPC contest! Woohoo!

Again, I just want to say that the site survives on contributions. If any of you get the hankerin,' toss some stuff our way. Nothing on it is supposed to be the definitive versions of anything; you'll note there are varying and often conflicting treatments of the same things. That's what we like - a variety of material for a variety of tastes.


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## tleilaxu (Oct 13, 2002)

colonel what is the absolute deadline? i am trying to do something really nice to submit but i need to know exactly when i have to be done by


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## ColonelHardisson (Oct 13, 2002)

October 22nd.

For anyone who's interested, here is the link to the contest details:

http://www.d20reviews.com/ME/Contests/characterSep2002.html


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