# Why No Lost?



## Atavar (Jan 23, 2009)

Why is there no thread about Lost on here yet?


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## Asmo (Jan 23, 2009)

I´m not sure.


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## Duskblade (Jan 23, 2009)

http://www.enworld.org/forum/media-lounge/247744-lost-gets-cancelled.html


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## Mark (Jan 23, 2009)

Probably most who still watch don't want to be involved in threads that have so little positive to say about the show.  I usually avoid reading too much of Lost, Heroes and a few other threads in this forum.


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 24, 2009)

I have two reasons.  First, I just assumed Trust Seeker was going to make one (I guess not).  Second, I usually don't watch it until Thursday or Friday because I can't stand watching it with commercials.


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## warlord (Jan 24, 2009)

Oh but there is a LOST thread. You just can't find it because it is shifting through time.


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## Jack7 (Jan 24, 2009)

I got *One*.

It just keeps skipping to different forums.


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## Krug (Jan 26, 2009)

man..
[sblock]Just like Heroes, it's relying too much on time travel, which just screws everything up. Will give it one more ep, but it's rapidly losing my interest.
[/sblock]


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## EricNoah (Jan 27, 2009)

I enjoyed the premiere and am eager to see how it all plays out.


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## Mallus (Jan 27, 2009)

I thoroughly enjoyed both "premiere" episodes. So far this is (explicit) time travel done right, but we'll see how it goes. Also, more Faraday = good.


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## Arnwyn (Jan 27, 2009)

Time travel? _Time travel_? You suck, Lost. But with that said, the first one wasn't half bad at all, second one was boring. Looks like it'll be a tolerable method of handling time travel (as tolerable as that can be).

I have a horrible feeling the majority of this entire season will be about the Six trying to just get to the island. (Boring!) Very glad they're looking to wipe out one of those 3 obnoxious island n00bs (and the especially annoying chick, too. Yay!). Now if they could get rid of all three of them, I'll be happy. (Just keep Faraday around long enough to explain everything - quickly, please - and then off him.)

Time travel still royally sucks, though. Period. Doesn't really surprise me Lost choose that bad direction.


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## Krug (Jan 28, 2009)

While I still hate time travel as a plot device, at least it's not the sort that's controlled (or easily done so) like in *Heroes*. Still, I feel the show has wandered off and the main group of characters is losing my interest.


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## Shayuri (Jan 28, 2009)

Lost almost lost me in Season 3, but I really liked Season 4. So far Season 5 seems to be living up to that, for me. 

I have no particular beef with time travel in general...just with LAME time travel. So far, Lost's time travel doesn't seem to be lame. They use it smartly, to set up interesting puzzles. 

There's still plenty of room for it all to fall apart at the end...but so far I'm still enjoying the ride.


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## Felon (Jan 28, 2009)

I enjoyed the premiere episodes. I'm not crazy about time travel, since it's always presented as posing an immense danger and then it always winds up containing the deus ex machina that allows everything to turn out fine. However, seeing Sayed waste a guy with a dishwasher is just not something I'm likely to see if they'd stayed on the island.

And that bit with Neil complaining about fire...hilarious!

Oh, and that bit of advice Hugo got during his imaginary pullover: "Don't get arrested!" Busted a gut on that one, I did.


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## Fast Learner (Jan 29, 2009)

Tonight's episode had bunches of fun time travel!


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## Felon (Jan 29, 2009)

Fast Learner said:


> Tonight's episode had bunches of fun time travel!



Yeah, but not so many of the little character-defining moments that really make Lost for me.

I tell ya, Faraday's gotta be the most grizzled and haggard-looking nerd I've ever seen.


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## Arnwyn (Jan 29, 2009)

The one great thing with how they're presenting time travel is that we are getting more answers, faster.

I'll choke down time travel if that's the payoff.


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## Felon (Jan 29, 2009)

Last night ventured way too close to "you're your own father" paradox nonsense, with the Lostees becoming the bearers of knowledge to the rather clueless-looking Others. And the focus is heavily on characters that aren't that great to begin with. Juliet's still dull. The redhead hasn't had any real attention, so whatever's happening to her has little gravitas. Locke lost his coolness factor a long time ago, which is probably the saddest blow Lost has suffered. So for me, Sawyer and Desmond bore a heavy burden in terms of entertainment.

Who is the little Padme-looking soldier girl supposed to be?


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## jaerdaph (Jan 29, 2009)

If you haven't seen it already:







Still makes me laugh.


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## Grymar (Jan 30, 2009)

This season they really jumped from "sorta sci-fi/drama" to "deep heavy serious sci-fi" with the time travel stuff.  After the first episode I told my wife that they are going to lose half of their audience and forever hook the other half.

I'm of the "hooked" half. Since they announced the end of the show next year, the episodes are focused and fast paced.  

Lost has never been better, in my opinion.


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## Krug (Jan 30, 2009)

jaerdaph said:


> If you haven't seen it already:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hah I was about to say they seemed to generate plots with a twenty sided dice.


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## satori01 (Jan 30, 2009)

Felon said:


> Last night ventured way too close to "you're your own father" paradox nonsense, with the Lostees becoming the bearers of knowledge to the rather clueless-looking Others. And the focus is heavily on characters that aren't that great to begin with. Juliet's still dull. The redhead hasn't had any real attention, so whatever's happening to her has little gravitas. Locke lost his coolness factor a long time ago, which is probably the saddest blow Lost has suffered. So for me, Sawyer and Desmond bore a heavy burden in terms of entertainment.




I just completely disagree.  On possible interpretation is that the Others are keyed to to the time/space of the island and thus never experience the jump, while the Losties and Juliet are keyed to regular space time.

Does anyone remember, was Locke in the Valley when the first jump happened?  Perhaps the Temple is the Valley the Others were assembled in.

As for Locke losing his cool factor...whatever...agree to disagree.

As for Juliet...agree to disagree....the character is understated and the actress plays that very well.....frankly Kate has been bugging me for awhile now....but I appreciate understated.

As for the red head.....clearly she is more plot device, definition for Faraday now....very little different that Saul Thigh's wife in Battlestar...only in Lost they do not suddenly make her the object of the main plotline for the last 2 years (final 5 cylons) out of the blue and then just drop it.  

Lost always has had compelling development on the characters it has needed.  It has been implied she was born on the island, and her role was necessary to establish that Faraday has seen this  condition from his experiments.

As for the "Padame" little blond girl...my money is that is Faraday's mother.


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## Remus Lupin (Jan 30, 2009)

Caught up on line yesterday. I actually thought I was one step ahead of the show when I figured out who Charles Whidmore must be, but then the show went and let the cat out of the bag. He was a jerk back then, too.


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 30, 2009)

One little thing I liked is that they immediately set the ground rules in the beginning (with Desmond/Daniel) for changing the past - ie, you can't.  Since Widmore is alive in the present, fate simply won't let him die in the past, even if Locke had tried.

Of course, what I don't get then is how Locke can meet Richard, since they hadn't met until Locke was two.  Unless maybe Richard already knew Locke when they first "met," which I guess could be a way around that problem.  Argh.

Charlotte needs a constant...


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## Mallus (Jan 30, 2009)

satori01 said:


> As for the "Padame" little blond girl...my money is that is Faraday's mother.



I thought that at first too... but now I think it's Charlotte's mother. Didn't she at some point allude to the fact that the island is somehow her 'home' (which fits her name --she's C.S. Lewis trying to return to Narnia as an adult)?


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## Remus Lupin (Jan 30, 2009)

I'm betting she's the woman in the basement that Ben is talking to at the end of the second episode, who says he's only got 70 hours. And yes, I think she's Farraday's mom too (Ben's in LA, Farraday's mom is in LA, the mysterious woman in the church is in LA).


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## Felon (Jan 30, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> One little thing I liked is that they immediately set the ground rules in the beginning (with Desmond/Daniel) for changing the past - ie, you can't.  Since Widmore is alive in the present, fate simply won't let him die in the past, even if Locke had tried.



It's good to have ground rules, but how faithful they'll be to them remains to be seen. They've had to fudge plenty of stuff in the past due to failing to compensate for little unforseeable details, like getting rid of Walt--at one time a very important character--because someone failed to notify them that kids _grow_.

I think it would be fitting for Desmond to be the one to do Whitmore in. Ought not to go around just casually lopping off hands.



> Of course, what I don't get then is how Locke can meet Richard, since they hadn't met until Locke was two.  Unless maybe Richard already knew Locke when they first "met," which I guess could be a way around that problem.  Argh.



My take is that Richard hears Locke telling him that he's their leader, so Richard goes to check him out. Seems that Locke is lacking some character traits, which we all already knew (or most of us knew, at least).


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## Mark (Jan 31, 2009)

Mallus said:


> I thought that at first too... but now I think it's Charlotte's mother. Didn't she at some point allude to the fact that the island is somehow her 'home' (which fits her name --she's C.S. Lewis trying to return to Narnia as an adult)?





Are you saying that Faraday is Charlotte's father?


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## Cthulhudrew (Jan 31, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> Of course, what I don't get then is how Locke can meet Richard, since they hadn't met until Locke was two.  Unless maybe Richard already knew Locke when they first "met," which I guess could be a way around that problem.  Argh.




I think Richard did know Locke, and the reason he was disappointed when he met the "young" Locke was because he was searching for him due to their having met in the past, but when young Locke failed the test, Richard thought he hadn't found the right John Locke and would have to keep looking.



Mallus said:


> I thought that at first too... but now I think it's Charlotte's mother. Didn't she at some point allude to the fact that the island is somehow her 'home' (which fits her name --she's C.S. Lewis trying to return to Narnia as an adult)?




Plus Daniel and the woman have that discussion about her looking similar to Charlotte. It's definitely her mother.


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 8, 2009)

Still no new threads? I just caught up on the last episode online and was hoping that there might be some reaction, partiuclalry to the big revelation that Jin is still alive.


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## Felon (Feb 8, 2009)

JIn's survival is a big reveal, but we don't have any bedrock, bonafide, quantifiable developments to talk about. Just gotta keep watching and remain cautiously optimistic.


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## Mark (Feb 8, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Still no new threads? I just caught up on the last episode online and was hoping that there might be some reaction, partiuclalry to the big revelation that Jin is still alive.





Had to be.  He's one of the best characters.


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## Jack7 (Feb 9, 2009)

> I think Richard did know Locke, and the reason he was disappointed when he met the "young" Locke was because he was searching for him due to their having met in the past, but when young Locke failed the test, Richard thought he hadn't found the right John Locke and would have to keep looking.





That was my supposition as well. That Alpert had come looking for John Locke but assumed after the test that he had found a different Locke.

Because of the knife.

But I knew Alpert had found the right Locke because Locke never wanted to be what others want him to be. He wants to be his own man and few others ever got that except Ben, but he still thought he could prevent that by disposing of him. Alpert wants Locke to lead, but Locke doesn't really want to lead, per se, despite his apparent jealousy of Jack. Locke is a trailblazer or scout, not a traditional leader. He doesn't want people to follow and obey him like Ben, or even to be looked to regularly, like Jack, he wants to be out ahead and to understand. His leadership is not based on influence, but on accumulated wisdom.

But the island wants a "wild card," and a "starting over" point now, and so it has been maneuvering for Locke for a long time. It wants to escape the Ben-Widmore tesseract. That's why it had Ben move it.

It wants to be moved beyond that particular paradigm, solve that series of conflicts once and for all, and figures Locke is the man to do that.
And he is.

Locke is the wild card that refuses to be pigeon-holed and thereby refuses to be "led." He also refuses to "lead" in the traditional sense. He's a background man. Man behind the scenes. In some ways he is a spymaster like Ben, but he isn't interested in manipulating others so much as manipulating events. To discover what is really going on.

Locke has been way ahead of everyone else for a long time, so far ahead he doesn't know where he is going yet because he got so far out in front he couldn't "see behind him anymore."

He got to the end of the trail before he realized he should be observing how it led backwards, or where he had come from.
That's why he's got to keep skipping backwards.

He's backtracking to try and figure out everything he missed along the way.

He's a tracker who forgot to put down his golden thread so he could get back out of the labyrinth.
But he'll get there and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets Sawyer or someone else to kill him to do it.


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 9, 2009)

Well, once the series is over and we see the whole picture, I'm going to need something to help me see how all of this fit together from the beginning. Because part of the coolness of it will be seeing the structure that has emerged slowly.


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## Elodan (Feb 12, 2009)

Good episode last night.

Most enjoyable moments.  Jin and Sawyer reunion; Ben slamming on the breaks and telling Jack and Sun how much they should be thanking him (still the master manipulator); and Christian telling Locke to say hi to his son.


Some interesting developments.

 * The smoke monster is guarding a temple (at least in 1988).  Related to the four-toed statue?
 * Charlotte was raised on the island.  I'm thinking their ages are off but what was the name of the girl who befriended young Ben when he first arrived with his dad?
 * Are the time shifts being caused by the wheel being off its axis?  If not, what happens if less than the six come back to the island (and does Desmond need to go back as well)?

I thought it was a one way trip for Ben when he pushed the wheel; no coming back to the island.  If so, what's he hoping to achieve.

I have to admit I'm pretty confused by Faraday's mom (assuming she is his mom).  Anyone have any good theories?


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Feb 12, 2009)

Elodan said:


> Most enjoyable moments. Jin and Sawyer reunion; Ben slamming on the breaks and telling Jack and Sun how much they should be thanking him (still the master manipulator); and Christian telling Locke to say hi to his son.



If I had to name one element that was most unrealistic about this show it would be that anybody believes Ben for a second.  I wouldn't believe him if he said the sky was blue.  After his constant lies and manipulations they shouldn't trust him to do anything but be untrustworthy.


> * The smoke monster is guarding a temple (at least in 1988). Related to the four-toed statue?



It may be guarding the temple but unless they're retconning it a bit it's been seen plenty of other places on the island nowhere near the temple.  In fact, until it was mentioned by the others as a meeting place we never knew the temple existed yet the smoke monster had been encountered plenty.

I also find it interesting that the temple is covered in heiroglyphics - or at least the same kind of symbols we saw on the timer in the hatch when it went critical.  It's just a wild guess but I think that set of symbols will be used inside the temple to control or fix the island.


> * Are the time shifts being caused by the wheel being off its axis? If not, what happens if less than the six come back to the island (and does Desmond need to go back as well)?



My understanding has been that it's just the Oceanic 6 (and Locke) that need to return.  They were brought to the island for specific reasons (not that we yet know what those reasons are) and it is the fulfillment of those reasons that they all need to be there.  Something is meant to happen that requires them particularly.


> I thought it was a one way trip for Ben when he pushed the wheel; no coming back to the island. If so, what's he hoping to achieve.



Well it was BEN who said it - so don't believe it.  All turning the wheel did/does is shift the island in time/space.  Doing that apparantly tosses the turnee out into the world somewhere/somewhen.  In Bens case he went to Tunisia 10 months into the future.  The wheel, however, got screwed up and that caused the repeated flashes.  It needed to be seated properly for the island to stay in one time/place.  Bens ultimate motivation is still unknown but he continues to lie and manipulate as skillfully as ever.  Despite what he wanted Locke to think about the consequences of moving the island he knew that he could and even would return to the island.  It simply meant a one-way trip OFF the island and difficulties returning.  I believe it was the old lady in LA who told Ben that EVERYONE needed to go back to the island.


> I have to admit I'm pretty confused by Faraday's mom (assuming she is his mom). Anyone have any good theories?



No ideas really.  What I find curious is that Christian is actually Jacob, or at least that Jacob is appearing in the form of Christian.


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## Fast Learner (Feb 12, 2009)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> What I find curious is that Christian is actually Jacob, or at least that Jacob is appearing in the form of Christian.




Right, which is why his comment about "say hello to my son" was potentially more cryptic than it seemed to the viewers.


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 12, 2009)

Just got the episode online. I thought it was good. Charlotte's "C.S. Lewis" allusion was made clear to me (the island as Narnia, told by her mom she imagined it), but alas, poor Charlotte! This show has an unfortunate dearth of redheads!

As for Farraday's mom, I still think she's the Other with the rifle who took Farrady to the nuke, and who looked familiar to him.

Favorite moments: Christian/the Island saying to Locke: "when has trusting Ben ever done you a bit of good." One day I hope to have a clearer picture of just how he got the power he did.

The French guy's arm being ripped off by the smoke monster. Yikes!

Did we know that Danielle had killed her crewmates before, and have I just forgotten it? I thought her relationship to her husband was very sweet till the monster attack.

We've still got at least one layer of metaplot backwards to go. We now have a good idea who the Dharma initiative is, and how they were formed (at least I think so), but in order for that to happen, we need to know who the "original" others are. My guess: They came on the Black Rock.


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## Megaton (Feb 12, 2009)

Fast Learner said:


> Right, which is why his comment about "say hello to my son" was potentially more cryptic than it seemed to the viewers.



It's a very interesting theory that perhaps Jacob is just inhabiting the body of Christian Shepard. I didn't think of that when I first saw that, but that could certainly be possible. After all, this is Lost and anything is possible.


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## Cor Azer (Feb 13, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Just got the episode online. I thought it was good. Charlotte's "C.S. Lewis" allusion was made clear to me (the island as Narnia, told by her mom she imagined it), but alas, poor Charlotte! This show has an unfortunate dearth of redheads!




QFT



Remus Lupin said:


> As for Farraday's mom, I still think she's the Other with the rifle who took Farrady to the nuke, and who looked familiar to him.




Interesting posit; I like it.



Remus Lupin said:


> Did we know that Danielle had killed her crewmates before, and have I just forgotten it? I thought her relationship to her husband was very sweet till the monster attack.




Yes. Season 1 I think, Danielle mentioned that she had to kill them when they got sick, but never mentioned what the sickness was (whether it was the show's intention or not, I had figured it was related to the "quarantine" sign on the inside of the hatch, even though that was probably a hoax/part of the Hatch experiment).



Remus Lupin said:


> We've still got at least one layer of metaplot backwards to go. We now have a good idea who the Dharma initiative is, and how they were formed (at least I think so), but in order for that to happen, we need to know who the "original" others are. My guess: They came on the Black Rock.




Assuming the time jumps haven't stopped yet (ie, if they don't stop until the oceanic 6 are back, as opposed to now with Locke's realigning the wheel), I was thinking maybe the time jumpers cause the Black Rock landing - physical stuff moves with them it they're using them,  and it could explain why the Black Rock was so far inland (ie, time jumpers appear out on ocean (perhaps paddling again), "rescued" by slaver ship, time jump again, taking boat onto island).

Of course, most time jumps involve no changing in relative location... except the one jump that leads to Jin rejoining Sawyer and co. Ie Jin was near the beach/temple when Rousseau was about to start shooting him, but then flash, he's with the rest. Since every other jump has moved all the time jumpers to the same time, when Jin was in 88, so were the rest, so they would have been nearby.

I seem to recall we're supposed to get more info on (the actual ballooning) Henry Gale this season, so I suspect the time jumping hasn't stopped just yet.


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## Demmero (Feb 14, 2009)

Man, I really hate time travel.

That being said, here are some of the things I'm looking to find answers to:

1) How are the time jumps affecting Cindy (the 815 flight attendant turned Other), the kids, and the other Tailies taken off the beach?  They've been on the island the same amount of time as the Losties, so my initial guess is that they, too, should be bouncing through time...unless the Others have some special protection against jumps (the temple?).  And where are Rose and Bernard?

2) When are the Losties going to stop giving Ben information?  I wanted to reach through the screen and slap Desmond for answering Ben's question with: "You're here to see Faraday's mother, too?"

When I saw Ben's slightly startled reaction, I thought: "OMG!  Daniel and Ben never actually met on the island when Widmore's scientists/mercs invaded!  They know each other!"  Then I thought: "Nah...Ben had detailed files on Charlotte and the other members of the team, thanks to his spy Michael on the boat.  Ben shouldn't be surprised."  But THEN I remembered Desmond going to Oxford and them having no records of a Daniel Faraday going there and thought: "Hmm...maybe he's using an alias, and Daniel Faraday isn't his real name!"

3) After a while, the time jumps started to annoy me.  It almost seemed like the writers were trying to play "Guess what year we're in now!" with the audience, building towards a payoff moment in each time period ("Whoa!  The hatch is back!  Oops, now it's gone!  The Nigerian plane just flew overhead!  Rousseau's scientific expedition's arrived!", etc.). Now, though, I'm wondering if there's a deeper plan here.  Most of the time flashes are to important times/events on the island.  Does something need to be "fixed" to help stabilize things, maybe?


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## Demmero (Feb 14, 2009)

Cor Azer said:


> Of course, most time jumps involve no changing in relative location... except the one jump that leads to Jin rejoining Sawyer and co. Ie Jin was near the beach/temple when Rousseau was about to start shooting him, but then flash, he's with the rest. Since every other jump has moved all the time jumpers to the same time, when Jin was in 88, so were the rest, so they would have been nearby.




It's possible that the Temple is quite close to the Orchid Station--remember Ben using a mirror to signal someone on a mountaintop as he, Locke, and Hurley got close to the Orchid at the end of last season?  And we know that the remaining Others had taken refuge in the Temple by then.

So Jin and the Sawyer party might've been in close proximity when that last time jump occured.


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## Mark (Feb 14, 2009)

Have there been many maps made of the Lost island and, if so, which one is the best?


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## Mark (Feb 19, 2009)

Cool machine.


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## Felon (Feb 19, 2009)

Man, I would've loved to have seen Ben get beaten up. Love that line we got out of him.

"What's going to happen to the other people on this plane?"

"Who cares?"

Tell me I'm not the only one who thought Locke's letter was going to read: 

"Don't get on the plane with Ben!"

or something like that.


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## Elodan (Feb 19, 2009)

Felon said:


> Man, I would've loved to have seen Ben get beaten up. Love that line we got out of him.
> 
> "What's going to happen to the other people on this plane?"
> 
> ...




I thought it would say something about preventing Ben from getting back to the island.

Anyone else think that the gentlemen who gave Jack his condolences at the airport is going to be on the island?

I'm guessing Ben turned in Sayid (fairly certain he was in custody - matching the original flight) and manipulated Kate and Hurley to get them on the plane.  He such an evil manipulative SOB.  Loved Hurley buying all those seats on the flight.  Is the guitar supposed to be Charlie's?


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## Mark (Feb 19, 2009)

Felon said:


> Man, I would've loved to have seen Ben get beaten up.





We will.


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## RigaMortus2 (Feb 19, 2009)

I have a few questions...

When Ben "moved" the island, did the island move in physical location or did it "move through time" or both?  At the end of the last season, I assumed that it moved location within in the same time frame.  Of course, since they introduced time travel in this season, I thought "Well the island is technically still there, but is constantly moving through time."  The problem with this is, the Losties are the only ones moving through time, their surroundings are not moving with them, they are changing because they are moving through time, so I can't see how the island is moving through time.

I guess this last episode did clear it up.  Eloise Hawking did mention that the island moves physically and they can predict where it might be at certain points in time (in the future).

Second, who is that butcher lady that was holding Locke's corpse for Ben?  Ben said something like, "Keep him safe or everything we are about to do won't matter."

Lastly...  Didn't Daniel Faraday state that they aren't able to manipulate or change things that already happened?  This is why he was able to give a message to Desmond.  Which I don't quite understand.  Why was Daniel Faraday able to deliver Desmond a message, but no one else was able to (according to Daniel that is)?

And as a follow up to that, why didn't future Danielle Rossueo recognize Jin, since they obviously met in the past?


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## Demmero (Feb 19, 2009)

Felon said:


> Man, I would've loved to have seen Ben get beaten up. Love that line we got out of him.
> 
> "What's going to happen to the other people on this plane?"
> 
> "Who cares?"



And how about his response when Jack asks him how he can read right before they re-enact the crash?

"My mother taught me."

Um, Ben--your mother died giving birth to you.  Even his snappy one-liners are loaded with lies.



Felon said:


> Tell me I'm not the only one who thought Locke's letter was going to read:
> 
> "Don't get on the plane with Ben!"
> 
> or something like that.




I'm pretty sure Mrs. Hawking called the letter Locke's "suicide note."  My first thought upon learning its contents ("I wish you had believed me") was that it really wasn't much of a suicide note and not the least bit clear. If a cop had found the note near Locke's body, I'd think Jack would've gotten a police visit for some follow-up questions.

However...the writing on the enveloped looked neater and more feminine than what I'd expect to see in John Locke's handwriting. And, of course, the letter was unopened.  So it seems likely that either someone got it from Locke before his death was reported/discovered or...it's a fake.  I'm leaning towards the second.  I'm guessing that Ben (or possibly Mrs. Hawkings) wrote it as a way of manipulating Jack (Mr. Fix-It) back to the island to remedy the mistake he'd made of leaving.


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## Demmero (Feb 19, 2009)

RigaMortus2 said:


> I have a few questions...
> 
> Second, who is that butcher lady that was holding Locke's corpse for Ben?  Ben said something like, "Keep him safe or everything we are about to do won't matter."



I don't believe she's been detailed much beyond being one of Ben's allies off-island.



RigaMortus2 said:


> Lastly...  Didn't Daniel Faraday state that they aren't able to manipulate or change things that already happened?  This is why he was able to give a message to Desmond.  Which I don't quite understand.  Why was Daniel Faraday able to deliver Desmond a message, but no one else was able to (according to Daniel that is)?




Well, Faraday's not afraid to play loose with the truth, so take what he says with a grain of salt.  Assuming that what he said IS true, however, he also said that Desmond is a special individual, in that the rules of time travel don't seem to always apply to him. (And Desmond is Faraday's constant, for whatever that's worth.)  And technically, Faraday wasn't trying to manipulate an event in the past: he was trying to use a person in the past to manipulate a present/future event (getting the time jumps to stop).



RigaMortus2 said:


> And as a follow up to that, why didn't future Danielle Rossueo recognize Jin, since they obviously met in the past?




Maybe because both Rousseas were "past Rousseaus," and by the rules you can't change the past?

Danielle's place in the "normal" (standard?) timeline is as follows: 1) crashes on the island in 1988; 2) meets Jin and the Losties in 2004; 3) Is killed in early 2005; 4) A bit later in 2005, Ben moves the island and the time jumps start occurring.

Since the time travelling didn't start until after she'd met Jin in 2004, she wouldn't know Jin because she hadn't met him until then (and you can't change the past, allegedly).  God, I hope that makes an ounce of sense...and this is precisely the reason I hate time travel so much!


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## Jack7 (Feb 19, 2009)

> Second, who is that butcher lady that was holding Locke's corpse for Ben? Ben said something like, "Keep him safe or everything we are about to do won't matter."
> 
> Lastly... Didn't Daniel Faraday state that they aren't able to manipulate or change things that already happened? This is why he was able to give a message to Desmond. Which I don't quite understand. Why was Daniel Faraday able to deliver Desmond a message, but no one else was able to (according to Daniel that is)?
> 
> And as a follow up to that, why didn't future Danielle Rossueo recognize Jin, since they obviously met in the past?





Think back RM to the experiments done on the rats in the maze.
What moved through time, and what didn't?

That tells you a lot about the more general time movements in relation to the island, and their neurological effects, as well as their perceptual effects.

Personally I loved the particularly apparent religious symbolism of this episode.

Of course the show is chocked full of religious symbolism, but I've seen some of these images and ideas coming for a long time.

John - 316 (3:16), the Doubting Thomas, the body of the Father who has been improperly prepared for burial and therefore cannot rest, the Substitute Savior (JL, Locke - the Locke to the Keys of the Kingdom, he must be "Un-locked" for the island to work properly), and I really liked the allusion Ben made to Jack about Thomas saying, "let us go to die with him."

This was an obvious reference to Jack who had failed to stand beside Locke and therefore had misunderstood his role. Jack never got that Ben was talking to him. (Ben is Judas by the way, serving as both the manipulative SOB seeking his own self-interests, and the one seeking to redeem himself by pushing others to fulfill their own destines.) Jack never gets what others are saying to him, he is as slow as molasses. He is intelligent but his intelligence constantly interferes with his ability to understand anything going on around him. Then again Ben has the same problem in many ways.



> And how about his response when Jack asks him how he can read right before they re-enact the crash?
> 
> "My mother taught me."
> 
> Um, Ben--your mother died giving birth to you. Even his snappy one-liners are loaded with lies.




Indeed, he is the Father of Lies.

I also very much liked Foucault's Pendulum as the method of "tracking the island" both through time and space. The pendulum, along with the calculations, could track the island even when it was "off the Wheel" and adrift, before Locke made the course correction and regained some control of the Wheel. Meaning the island is a Ship of the Soul, as well as a Ship of Time, but what is interesting to me is the fact that the Wheel must have existed long before the Dharma Initiative or anyone introduced thus far. Or the pendulum would not be able to be aligned like a compass to the positional course set by the island. in a way the pendulum is the compass meaning the island is naturally set to the course of the surrounding Earth, and yet distinct enough to be traceable by the curvature movement of the tilt of it.

I suspect that the guitar is indeed Charlie's (they need to recreate prior conditions, and they've already lost several key players and what those players represent) and that several resurrections will occur as the show continues, though not necessarily in the anticipated manner.



> Anyone else think that the gentlemen who gave Jack his condolences at the airport is going to be on the island?




He will be, as will some others. They need resurrectional substitutes, remember that is what is going on at this point, as well as the time shifts.

I also found it extremely interesting that Locke hangs himself, i.e. Judas-style in order to make his "sacrifice for the Others." (Notice the irony on the twist on the idea of *"who are the Others?"*  -  _*"Why, the Others are my people too."*_) And I'm not sure because I had left the room for a moment but when I came back I think Ben was kneeling below him begging him to hang himself. If that was indeed Ben and true then how ironic. I had originally though Locke would get someone to kill him, maybe James or Jack, but if Ben convinced him to commit suicide then he talked Locke into acting as substitute and surrogate not only for Jack and the others, but also for Judas himself (in the guise of Ben). But consider this as well, _"not a bone will be broken." _Yet another clever prophetic plot twist on the compound fracture at the Well of Time.

Now if Desmond is indeed like Saint Paul then he and Penny and their child may very well shipwreck there in the near future. Or Desmond may simply be "cast overboard" to save the others, but i suspect they will all hit the beaches eventually. And I also liked very much that Lapidus was the pilot. If Desmond can convert Ben and turn him away form trying to kill Widmore's daughter as vengeance for his own stolen daughter's murder then Ben will also be saved. But we'll see.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, _*Lost*_ is like church for television. It may very well be the best show in the history of television. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Though _*Battlestar Galactica*_ and _*Heroes*_ are awfully good too, and also chocked full of interesting religious and metaphysical symbolism.

I'm looking forwards to what happens to Aaron. 

I'm also glad to see them all reconverging on the island.


----------



## Felon (Feb 19, 2009)

Demmero said:


> And how about his response when Jack asks him how he can read right before they re-enact the crash?
> 
> "My mother taught me."
> 
> Um, Ben--your mother died giving birth to you.  Even his snappy one-liners are loaded with lies.



Yep, that was rich. Also:

"Did you know about this room?"

"No."

"Is he lying?"

"Probably."



Mark said:


> We will.



Yeah, but now we know he'll just deal with it the way he's shrugged off all of his past trouncings. Not nearly as satisfying.


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## Felon (Feb 19, 2009)

RigaMortus2 said:


> Lastly...  Didn't Daniel Faraday state that they aren't able to manipulate or change things that already happened?  This is why he was able to give a message to Desmond.  Which I don't quite understand.  Why was Daniel Faraday able to deliver Desmond a message, but no one else was able to (according to Daniel that is)?



Faraday didn't want slap-happy impulsive hillbilly Sawyer messing with Desmond in the past(would you?). He had his own plans for him.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Feb 19, 2009)

My biggest question right now is - does Jack really think Locke can fill his dads shoes?


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 20, 2009)

Just caught it and liked it. One of the few episodes that doesn't bounce back between the Island and "Home," and I liked the variation.

It seems to me that, once Locke turned the wheel, the remaining islanders stopped moving in time and became stuck in the era some time after Dharma arrived but before wheel station was built, which is why we see both Daniel and Jin in Dharma uniforms (how they infiltrated it though is an interesting question).

Open questions: What happened to Aaron? Why would Saiyd be being taken in cuffs to Guam?!? If you were a flight attendant, and saw the exchange between Ben, Hurley, and Jack, would you ever have let that flight off the ground? If you were Lapidas, why not turn the plane right around? And will Lapidas be with them on the island (I think the answer is pretty obviously "yes").

I think it's being implied that the plane didn't crash, but didn't we see a water bottle from that plane somewhere just a few episodes ago?


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## Jack7 (Feb 20, 2009)

> does Jack really think Locke can fill his dads shoes?




Yeah, that metaphor made me laugh too.
Especially when Jack was "tying up" the shoes.


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## Grymar (Feb 20, 2009)

A few thoughts:

Someone above mentioned that he suspects that Ben manipulated Kate and Hurley to get on the plane.  Yes, he did Kate, but I don't think he did Hurley.  Ben was surprised to see Hurley there.

Charlie told Hurley where and when to go.  And to bring along the guitar.

There is now a second line that ranks near the top as far as "Best Lost One Liners"

The best is: "Dude, you have some Arnst on you."

Now taking second place is: "<Sigh> We're not going to Guam, are we?"


----------



## Arnwyn (Feb 20, 2009)

Grymar said:


> Now taking second place is: "<Sigh> We're not going to Guam, are we?"



I literally laughed out loud when he said that.


----------



## Fast Learner (Feb 26, 2009)

Perhaps bizarrely, I found this week to be a bit predictable, but I still really enjoyed it.

And that Ben, man oh man. At this point I'm pretty convinced that there are two bad guys against each other, Ben and Charles, with no real good guy.


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## Mark (Feb 26, 2009)

I often like these other-side-of-the-coin POVs but this one seemed to have only Locke's true death as the point.  I think they could have squeezed a bit more into this one.  Not bad, though, for all that, IMO.


----------



## Arnwyn (Feb 26, 2009)

Fast Learner said:


> And that Ben, man oh man. At this point I'm pretty convinced that there are two bad guys against each other, Ben and Charles, with no real good guy.



That's what I've been going with for a while now. Both despicable, and both deserve a rather nasty comeuppance.

In fact, based on the actions the characters have shown throughout all the seasons of Lost so far, _nothing_ will convince me otherwise. (There's no way they could present some sort of lame 'turnaround' of either of those characters, with a "oh, he's been doing good the whole time" - at least, not without me throwing up on the TV and turning off Lost for good/badmouthing it whenever it should happen to come up.)

Pretty much anyone related to The Others in any way (which both Ben and Charles certainly are) deserves a horrendous end.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Feb 26, 2009)

Well, it was pretty clear to me from the moment that Ben interceded to stop Locke from doing himself in that he was up to something nasty. The only question I have is: why was Hawking's name the trigger? What about her involvement made Ben decide he had to kill Locke, or was he planning it from the beginning? In that case, why was it important that HE do it, rather than allowing Locke to?

As for anyone related to the Others deserving of a horrible end: I'm not convinced this is the case for many of them. Many of the nameless members don't seem to have done anything wrong. And Richard remains an enigma. Juliette seems to have gone over to the other side, so I'm hoping she's exempted.


----------



## Man in the Funny Hat (Feb 26, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, it was pretty clear to me from the moment that Ben interceded to stop Locke from doing himself in that he was up to something nasty. The only question I have is: why was Hawking's name the trigger? What about her involvement made Ben decide he had to kill Locke, or was he planning it from the beginning? In that case, why was it important that HE do it, rather than allowing Locke to?



It seemed apparant to me that when Ben showed up he DID want Lock alive, but as always it was strictly for Bens own purposes. Ben is well and truly a _pathological_ liar. He lies even when he has no reason to. Never tells the full truth when a sliver will do. If he tells John that it's vital that he survive then he's telling the truth - but only to a degree. BEN wanted John alive at that moment.

Its fascinating then that the mere mention of Eloise Hawking is like flipping a light switch in Bens brain. The payoff for WHY he actually did it is obviously yet to come, but clearly it was important to Ben that these two have no contact. Suddenly that became vastly more important (to Ben) than keeping Locke alive.  It IS possible to surprise Ben.  Ben doesn't know everything - he just lies so much it's impossible to tell.  He seemed surprised at the mention of Hawkings name.  Either it's surprise that Locke knew of her existence, or surprise that she DID exist as if Ben thought she was dead.  The latter seems more likely to me.  But clearly the exchange of information between those two would be VERY bad for Ben and killing Locke was done without a moments hesitation at that point.



> As for anyone related to the Others deserving of a horrible end: I'm not convinced this is the case for many of them. Many of the nameless members don't seem to have done anything wrong. And Richard remains an enigma. Juliette seems to have gone over to the other side, so I'm hoping she's exempted.



Yeah, The Others are not all evil as far as I can tell. At worst they are simply dupes and while someone like Ben is their active leader who can really blame them for constantly doing bad things? Ben has REPEATEDLY duped Losties into following him and believing his lies - how can you blame The Others for doing likewise?

These looks we've gotten lately at past snapshots of The Others I think illustrates clearly that they are not inherently evil. As you say, Richard is quite enigmatic, Ben is CLEARLY not a good guy, Widmore seems only slightly less so, but the rest of The Others don't seem to be such a bad lot, especially out from under the direct influence of certain leaders and indoctrination.


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 26, 2009)

Never mind.


----------



## Demmero (Feb 27, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, it was pretty clear to me from the moment that Ben interceded to stop Locke from doing himself in that he was up to something nasty. The only question I have is: why was Hawking's name the trigger? What about her involvement made Ben decide he had to kill Locke, or was he planning it from the beginning? In that case, why was it important that HE do it, rather than allowing Locke to?




Another thing to consider: would the island have allowed Locke to kill himself? (Remember Michael's failed attempts.)

My guess: Yeah, maybe.  Especially if the island had already decided it would bring him back from the dead.


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## Cthulhudrew (Feb 27, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> The only question I have is: why was Hawking's name the trigger? What about her involvement made Ben decide he had to kill Locke, or was he planning it from the beginning? In that case, why was it important that HE do it, rather than allowing Locke to?




Remember what Jacob/Christian said when John asked why he had to kill himself? "That's why they call it a sacrifice."

I think Ben knew that John was supposed to kill himself, and did all that he could to prevent it- up to and including performing the deed himself, so that Locke couldn't perform the selfless act of suicide for whatever purpose Ben and/or Richard had in mind. Same reason (IMO) Widmore wanted to keep Locke from killing himself (and likely would have had Abaddon kill Locke).

(Offhand, I'm guessing there is some kind of power in the sacrifice, and neither Ben nor Widmore have ever had the kind of level of belief and dedication to perform the sacrifice that would allow themselves to return to the island. Thus, both men decided instead to sacrifice Locke so that they could achieve the same- and both were doing their best to ensure that they- and not the other- were the ones to be best placed to take advantage.)

In fact, that's the only thing about this episode that really bugged me- that we see John, and he seems to have finally achieved some real level of growth; he is open about his relationship and feelings for Helen for the first time*; he accepts the wheelchair with only slight reluctance for the first time; he is unwilling to pull Walt out of his life and put him back on the island.

Then he goes and blows it all by chickening out of suicide and- far worse- once more believing Ben (who has tried to kill him before and has openly resented him from day one). Not that I'm saying suicide is in any way a brave act or anything, but in the context of the story that is developing on this show, and in the arc of Locke's character- it is the proper thing to do, and he once more shows a weakness as the leader he is supposed to be developing into since Season 1.

Otherwise- a great episode.

(*I am of a mind that either Widmore/Abaddon had Helen killed or else faked the tombstone in order that Locke wouldn't have any kind of change of heart about returning to the island. Abaddon is supposed to get Locke to where he is "supposed" to go, after all- so it wouldn't do to have their sacrificial lamb decide not to go anywhere.)

(As for Hawking's name that seemed to catch Ben by surprise- I assume he just didn't know that she was the key to returning people to the island for some reason. He clearly knew her from before Locke mentioned her, but I think maybe he just hadn't realized her link; he didn't even know of her connection to Faraday until recently either.)


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm of two minds about the episode.

I thought it was a pretty good character piece about Locke, especially visiting the others as reflections of himself.  On the other hand, I really do not get why people leave Ben alive.  Locke, if he had any brains, would just kill Ben while he's down.  It won't happen, unfortunately, but it's what should happen.

Going back to the reflections of Locke, I'd break it down as follows:

Sayid as his desire to help people, Hurley as his self-doubt, Helen as his love (and possibly attachment to an old life), Kate as his forgiving side, and Jack as his rage.  I'm not quite sure where Walt fits... maybe the supernatural, or maybe just his naivety/innocence.  Ben does not represent anything; Ben came to Locke.


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## Felon (Feb 27, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, it was pretty clear to me from the moment that Ben interceded to stop Locke from doing himself in that he was up to something nasty. The only question I have is: why was Hawking's name the trigger? What about her involvement made Ben decide he had to kill Locke, or was he planning it from the beginning? In that case, why was it important that HE do it, rather than allowing Locke to?



I think this point is being overanalyzed. Ben needed Locke dead, but he also needed to pump Locke for the intel on what Whidmore's full plan was. He may or may not know Hawking, but he seems not to have known some vital detail like her current location or that she was the final go-to person.

And yeah, Locke's a bit of a 'tard for trusting the guy who shot him and left him to die in a pit full of other people whose deaths he's also responsible for.

But seeing Locke stand there with that cord tied around his neck for several minutes was pretty funny.


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## Grymar (Feb 27, 2009)

I like the theory that Ben wanted to prevent Locke from making a sacrifice. It fits.  But there is another thought...

Ben is envious of Locke, who is the new anointed leader and already seems to have a closer relationship with Jacob/Christian than Ben.  Ben first tried killing Locke, but that didn't take. 

Now he seems determined to replace Locke. Locke is told to move the island...Ben turned the wheel instead. Locke is told to get everyone back to the island and visit Mrs. Hawkings, Ben instead kills Locke and does it himself.

And yes, Ben is a pathological liar. Even when he's telling the truth, you can feel eight other lies trying to get out. He may be one of the best characters EVER on TV.

I also agree that neither Widmore nor Ben are "good guys;" they want the island for their own personal reasons. I'm not yet sure if it is power/wish-fulfillment, wealth, or what, but they both have personal motives.


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## Arnwyn (Feb 27, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> As for anyone related to the Others deserving of a horrible end: I'm not convinced this is the case for many of them. Many of the nameless members don't seem to have done anything wrong. And Richard remains an enigma. Juliette seems to have gone over to the other side, so I'm hoping she's exempted.






Man in the Funny Hat said:


> Yeah, The Others are not all evil as far as I can tell. At worst they are simply dupes and while someone like Ben is their active leader who can really blame them for constantly doing bad things? Ben has REPEATEDLY duped Losties into following him and believing his lies - how can you blame The Others for doing likewise?
> 
> These looks we've gotten lately at past snapshots of The Others I think illustrates clearly that they are not inherently evil. As you say, Richard is quite enigmatic, Ben is CLEARLY not a good guy, Widmore seems only slightly less so, but the rest of The Others don't seem to be such a bad lot, especially out from under the direct influence of certain leaders and indoctrination.



Meh. From Seaon 1 onwards it has long since been clearly shown that the vast majority of The Others - especially when away from their camp - are _insanely_ violent. They attack, brutalize, and kill without a thought, and their companions seem to have no issues with it.  The suggestion that those were all actions of dupes is completely lost on me, and doesn't hold an ounce of water AFAIC. 

Maybe people have forgotten, or worse, have been desensitized thanks to other shows, or whatever. But statements that The Others _aren't_ violent lunatics are approaching Planet Zbornak material here, so all I can do is shake my head confusingly at such an alien thought and move on.


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## RangerWickett (Feb 27, 2009)

"We're gunna hafta take the boy."


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 27, 2009)

My point is it's not clear to me who knows what among the others. Some, like Tom and Ethan, clearly knew a lot and did very bad things. It's not clear to me that this goes for everyone. And again, we've seen from some of Juliette's flashbacks that much of what she did on behalf of Ben was largely coerced.


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## Jack7 (Feb 28, 2009)

> Remember what Jacob/Christian said when John asked why he had to kill himself? "That's why they call it a sacrifice."




Someone can look it up if they tivoed it but I don't think anyone told Locke he had to kill himself.

Christian actually said, I think, "you have to die."

And that is a clue about how Locke died. And in what manner and by whom. 
True, I suspected that Ben would talk John into an attempt at suicide, or maybe an attempt around it. From the previews last week.

But I'm not sure Hawking was the trigger for what Ben did. That is that her name was the motivation for killing Locke. And I'm not sure at all that he resents Locke. The single instances in which I have noticed Ben appear to speak to the truth is to the Dead. If that is true, and he does speak truth to the dead then he will miss Locke. Then again if he does not speak truth to the dead, and speaks to them in the same way as the living then he will not miss Locke because he knows it wasn't the last time he would see him.

Like I said last week this would be all about the beginning of "resurrections." Including I suspect eventually far more than John's resurrection.

The question is, does Ben already anticipate this?
And does it color his actions?




> I think Ben knew that John was supposed to kill himself, and did all that he could to prevent it- up to and including performing the deed himself, so that Locke couldn't perform the selfless act of suicide for whatever purpose Ben and/or Richard had in mind. Same reason (IMO) Widmore wanted to keep Locke from killing himself (and likely would have had Abaddon kill Locke).
> 
> (Offhand, I'm guessing there is some kind of power in the sacrifice, and neither Ben nor Widmore have ever had the kind of level of belief and dedication to perform the sacrifice that would allow themselves to return to the island. Thus, both men decided instead to sacrifice Locke so that they could achieve the same- and both were doing their best to ensure that they- and not the other- were the ones to be best placed to take advantage.)




That is an interesting set of analyses.
Abaddon by the way is Greek for place of destruction or the terror or beast of of hell.
Names mean a lot in this series. Locke, Bentham, Sayid, Abaddon, and so forth.




> Its fascinating then that the mere mention of Eloise Hawking is like flipping a light switch in Bens brain. The payoff for WHY he actually did it is obviously yet to come, but clearly it was important to Ben that these two have no contact. Suddenly that became vastly more important (to Ben) than keeping Locke alive. It IS possible to surprise Ben. Ben doesn't know everything - he just lies so much it's impossible to tell. He seemed surprised at the mention of Hawkings name. Either it's surprise that Locke knew of her existence, or surprise that she DID exist as if Ben thought she was dead. The latter seems more likely to me. But clearly the exchange of information between those two would be VERY bad for Ben and killing Locke was done without a moments hesitation at that point.




Hawking obviously knows Ben.

So, it is possible Hawking and Ben are working together, Hawking and Ben are working at cross purposes, or Hawking is unaware of Ben's true motivations, and maybe vice versa.



> Sayid as his desire to help people, Hurley as his self-doubt, Helen as his love (and possibly attachment to an old life), Kate as his forgiving side, and Jack as his rage. I'm not quite sure where Walt fits... maybe the supernatural, or maybe just his naivety/innocence. Ben does not represent anything; Ben came to Locke.




That is also an interesting and excellent analysis.


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## Elodan (Mar 5, 2009)

Decent episode.

Would have been nice to get an answer to how 2 weeks became three years since it seemed we didn't get answers to anything this week.  I wonder what the significance of both those on and off the island lived an additional 3 years before they met again.

Where do we think Rose and Bernard are?


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## Mallus (Mar 5, 2009)

Loved this one, particularly the structure, the way it ping-ponged back and forth between 'three years ago'/three years later' in a storyline about people who were, until recently, literally unstuck in time --it's great to see a show really play with possibilities inherent in SF narrative. And for some reason it made me happy that Sawyer and Juliet had three happy, albeit off-camera years together as members of the Dharma Initiative (their self-congratulatory branding still makes me chuckle cf. "Dharma Merlot").


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## stonegod (Mar 5, 2009)

I also enjoyed the episode.







Elodan said:


> I wonder what the significance of both those on and off the island lived an additional 3 years before they met again.



Once things became re-stuck, it seems 'normal' time progressed for both parties: Three years on and off the island.







Elodan said:


> Where do we think Rose and Bernard are?



Been wondering that myself for several eps...


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## Mark (Mar 6, 2009)

Mallus said:


> Loved this one, particularly the structure, the way it ping-ponged back and forth between 'three years ago'/three years later' in a storyline about people who were, until recently, literally unstuck in time --it's great to see a show really play with possibilities inherent in SF narrative. And for some reason it made me happy that Sawyer and Juliet had three happy, albeit off-camera years together as members of the Dharma Initiative (their self-congratulatory branding still makes me chuckle cf. "Dharma Merlot").





No doubt.  And they manage in a single episode to create a new triangle that other series would require a season or more to develop.  Kudos.


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## Remus Lupin (Mar 6, 2009)

Mark said:


> No doubt.  And they manage in a single episode to create a new triangle that other series would require a season or more to develop.  Kudos.




Ok, now let's think this through: We've got Kate in love with Sawyer, then in love with Jack; Sawyer in love with Kate, and now in love with Juliet, and we had at least the beginnings of a mutual attraction between Jack and Juliet a season or so ago.

Love triangle? I think it's more a love rhombus.


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## stonegod (Mar 6, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Love triangle? I think it's more a love rhombus.



Freaky Love Rhombus is now going to be the name of my band.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 6, 2009)

New romantic couple to write fan-fics about? The internet is pleased.

But it will not be satisfied until J.J. Abrams has Jack and Sawyer share a longing gaze (probably while dressed as furries at Hogwarts or something).


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## Brown Jenkin (Mar 6, 2009)

RangerWickett said:


> New romantic couple to write fan-fics about? The internet is pleased.
> 
> But it will not be satisfied until J.J. Abrams has Jack and Sawyer share a longing gaze (probably while dressed as furries at Hogwarts or something).




I think the internet would be more pleased with Kate & Juliet in tight leather kissing each other passionately.


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## Grymar (Mar 6, 2009)

I also wondered about the "3 years" issue. Why did both parties deal with three years?

Questions: Who was the baby? Or better yet, who will the baby be? There is no such thing as an insignificant birth, especially with a troubled drunk father, on Lost.


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## Remus Lupin (Mar 6, 2009)

Well, it's a boy, who would be in his late 20s at the time the plane crashed. Who fits that description? Alex's boyfriend? He strikes me as too young.


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## Felon (Mar 6, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, it's a boy, who would be in his late 20s at the time the plane crashed. Who fits that description? Alex's boyfriend? He strikes me as too young.



I was watching while entertaining company. How do we know what year Sawyer's group wound up stuck in? And did Daniel appear in any of the "3 years later" segments?


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## Elodan (Mar 6, 2009)

Felon said:


> I was watching while entertaining company. How do we know what year Sawyer's group wound up stuck in? And did Daniel appear in any of the "3 years later" segments?




I believe Sawyer mentioned 1974 at one point and that it was before the 'three years later' stuff.

Don't recall seeing Daniel in any of the later stuff.


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## Arnwyn (Mar 6, 2009)

Elodan said:


> I believe Sawyer mentioned 1974 at one point and that it was before the 'three years later' stuff.



Yep.

The current year when the 2 groups meet up at the end of the episode is 1977.


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## RigaMortus2 (Mar 6, 2009)

RangerWickett said:


> New romantic couple to write fan-fics about? The internet is pleased.
> 
> But it will not be satisfied until J.J. Abrams has Jack and Sawyer share a longing gaze (probably while dressed as furries at Hogwarts or something).




You mean like this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0E1s9CFnG4]YouTube - Brokeback Island- ORIGINAL (LOST)[/ame]


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## dravot (Mar 7, 2009)

Elodan said:


> I believe Sawyer mentioned 1974 at one point and that it was before the 'three years later' stuff.
> 
> Don't recall seeing Daniel in any of the later stuff.




In earlier episode, we saw Daniel working on the Orchid.  He's around.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Mar 7, 2009)

Brown Jenkin said:


> I think the internet would be more pleased with Kate & Juliet in tight leather kissing each other passionately.



"I could stand to hear a little more..."
 "I'll be in my bunk." - Jayne Cobb


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## Remus Lupin (Mar 22, 2009)

Still surprised no one's throwing up new "Lost" threads.

I have to say, I feel bad for Jack -- He's been attracted to two women, and they both clearly prefer Sawyer to him. And now he's a janitor!


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## Asmo (Mar 22, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Still surprised no one's throwing up new "Lost" threads.



Indeed. Very strange, since Lost is clearly -imho- the best show atm.

I wonder what happened with Ben after Sun whacked him with the paddle,and she and Frank left (late at night). He has clearly taken a heavy beating, unconscious and bruised, lined up in the shack.
Can´t wait to see how John´s going to handle this situation.

Normally I don´t care for the love "stuff" but I do hope that Sawyer stays with Juliet: Let Kate and Jack sort things out and get on with the important things 

Pretty cool that the work Kate and Sawyer did on the Hydra island while being held there (during season 3), actually turned out to be THE runway Juliet was talking  about.

SAWYER: So, when you pulled us out of those polar bear cages and put us on the chain gang, what the hell you have us breaking all those rocks for anyway? 
JULIET: We were building a runway. 
SAWYER: Runway, for what? 
JULIET: [Turns to him] The aliens. 
[She smirks] 
JULIET: I don't know what for, do you think they told me everything? 

And finally; why can´t Sun and the others go back to -77? Or will Jacob/Christian help them?

A remarkable episode, to much to think about!!

Asmo


----------



## Arnwyn (Mar 24, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Still surprised no one's throwing up new "Lost" threads.





			
				Asmo said:
			
		

> Indeed. Very strange,



Probably because Lost has long since burned too many bridges thanks to the very bad Seasons 3 and 4.

With that said, this season is much better... because, of course, they're telling us more about the island and the Dharma Initiative - the actual interesting things about the show. For Lost, answers (even in little drips and drabs) = good.


----------



## coyote6 (Mar 24, 2009)

I thought season 4 was really good. Once they had a definite ending date, it was like they didn't feel the need to stretch things out, and just got on with the show. 

It's still a story told eliptically, but that's okay with me, since they're doing a pretty good job, imo.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 24, 2009)

Grymar said:


> I also wondered about the "3 years" issue. Why did both parties deal with three years?
> 
> Questions: Who was the baby? Or better yet, who will the baby be? There is no such thing as an insignificant birth, especially with a troubled drunk father, on Lost.




I guess we now know the baby will be Ethan. Nasty knock for Juliet.


----------



## Mark (Mar 24, 2009)

I think the cute blonde lady turning out to be an angel will wind up alienating some viewers.


----------



## stonegod (Mar 25, 2009)

Mark said:


> I think the cute blonde lady turning out to be an angel will wind up alienating some viewers.



But they don't seem bothered by the "leader of his people" seeing folks who aren't there. Odd.


----------



## dravot (Mar 25, 2009)

Grymar said:


> I also wondered about the "3 years" issue. Why did both parties deal with three years?
> 
> Questions: Who was the baby? Or better yet, who will the baby be? There is no such thing as an insignificant birth, especially with a troubled drunk father, on Lost.




The baby is Ethan.


----------



## RangerWickett (Mar 26, 2009)

I was both a little horrified, and a little thrilled, when Sayid did that. But of course it won't take, even though Sayid is an experienced killer. Only using one bullet? Huff!


----------



## Jamdin (Mar 26, 2009)

RangerWickett said:


> I was both a little horrified, and a little thrilled, when Sayid did that. But of course it won't take, even though Sayid is an experienced killer. Only using one bullet? Huff!




I was disappointed that it was not a head shot.


----------



## Mark (Mar 26, 2009)

So I kept thinking to myself that I knew where it was going so they just wouldn't do it, that they just couldn't do it, because of what it was that they were going to do and how it is just something that shouldn't be done, and then they did it.  This, of course, means that it isn't really as it seems and probably wasn't actually done.  As per above, no headshot and he was running off without taking a second shot for insurance, so it was probably not an actual death.  We'll see, though.


----------



## Fast Learner (Mar 26, 2009)

It's _such_ a cliche/trope, it's gotten very old. If you're killing the really bad guy, you _must_ take thats second shot through the head. Shows that don't really fall down in favor for me.


----------



## Richards (Mar 26, 2009)

But even if Sayid did kill him, he killed him on the island -- where getting killed doesn't always mean you don't just come back to life again later.

Johnathan


----------



## Hand of Evil (Mar 26, 2009)

My feeling is that Ben the kid is dead, the problem is how does the death effect Ben of the future, who is on the island and out of time.  I can see how this will 'fix' the island - now for unification.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Mar 26, 2009)

There's an important distinction to be made between what we as the audience knows and what a character might now.  We've gotten the "you can't change the future" spiel a couple of times now - first with Desmond/Charlie, then Michael/Richard, and then with Faraday a couple of times.  However, Sayid hasn't gotten it at all, to my knowledge.  So while _we_ know that Ben can't die, because he's alive in the future, Sayid doesn't know this.

In fact, it's been established that it wouldn't have mattered how many times Sayid shot Young Ben - he will survive.  Alternatively, fate's course correction would come into play: the gun would jam, or Sayid would miss, or any number of other incidents to cause Ben to live.

So it's _completely_ logical within Sayid's character that he thinks Ben is dead now - he doesn't know that Ben can't die in the past.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Mar 26, 2009)

Unless Ben the child did die in the past and is not real in the future.  

Another question to be answered; Ethan, how does he get into the hands of the Others...


----------



## Fast Learner (Mar 26, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> So it's _completely_ logical within Sayid's character that he thinks Ben is dead now - he doesn't know that Ben can't die in the past.




Not from the perspective of a professional killer, though. One body shot is far from certain death.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 27, 2009)

Little Ben's not dead. No way, no how. The show's gone out of its way so far to avoid as much of the "time travel paradox" as possible up to now. Killing Ben before the Dharma mass killing would destroy all of that.

However, the more I see of Ben's father, the more sympathetic I am, not to what Ben becomes, but to the boy who could have been something else -- "Sweet Kid."


----------



## Krug (Mar 29, 2009)

Ok now someone needs to travel back in time and kill Sayid...

Well good twist. Definitely a better season with more focused stories. I wonder if that nuclear bomb that's still around will play a 



Spoiler



part in the destruction of the island, which I see as the probable ending of the series.


----------



## Arnwyn (Apr 1, 2009)

Why was Sayid incredibly stupid during all the conversations with Sawyer?

"Hey Sayid - got a plan, we're freeing you and now you can join the rest of us."

"Nah... I'll just sit here and... do nothing. Or get executed. Whatever."

Wha...?

(Cheered at the shot in the end, though there's absolutely no way he's dead.)


----------



## dravot (Apr 2, 2009)

Arnwyn said:


> Why was Sayid incredibly stupid during all the conversations with Sawyer?
> 
> "Hey Sayid - got a plan, we're freeing you and now you can join the rest of us."
> 
> ...



Sayid took a risk, but the risk paid off.  I don't think he was suicidal.

Great episode last night.  Now we know how Ben became one of the Others.


----------



## RangerWickett (Apr 2, 2009)

I disliked it at first, until a friend pointed out that for the first time in a long while, Kate (who we both have loathed as a character since around the middle of the 2nd season) has a personal motivation that isn't "Do I want to screw with Jack, or screw Jack, or screw with Sawyer, or screw Sawyer, or whine and run away?"

She now, apparently, feels a responsibility to Aaron and wants to help Aaron's mother. Sure, it's still guilt-based, but it might actually do some good, instead of just causing trouble for other people.


----------



## Jack7 (Apr 2, 2009)

> I think the cute blonde lady turning out to be an angel will wind up alienating some viewers.




Ain't it always the way?


Sayid though obviously had no intention of killing Ben. Had he intended to do so, and since they were alone, and being an experienced killer as others have pointed out, he could have easily delivered a body shot, followed by a shot to the brain stem (people survive random head shots) and one to the heart. I suspect that he was trying to provoke exactly what he did, the transformation of Ben from what he was (as a boy) into what he will become. Though not necessarily into what he has been in the past. That is to say his intention was I suspect not so much to kill Ben as to kill something that has yet to grow in Ben. 

To me one of the two really interesting parts of the episode was when Jack said, in effect, "I'm tired of fixing things, maybe the Island wants to fix things." That's the closest anyone outside of John has come to understanding things I think. And secondly when Richard said, in effect, his innocence will be gone. That seems to imply one thing, but it could imply many different things. As in Ben assumes the loss of his innocence means one thing and should lead him in one direction, but it might supposedly lead him in several different possible directions. Loss of innocence often brings about assumptions about the world and ourselves and _*"Others"*_ that just seem corrupting, but maybe were never meant to be in reality. And I think that was what Ben was attempting to do by killing John. He suspected killing John would lead to a certain "reality" and outcome and instead it led to a _resurrection_ of other realities that had lain dormant since his childhood.

And just because events repeat themselves, or seem apparently immutable in action or outcome doesn't mean things won't or can't change in effect.

It will be interesting to see the judgment placed upon Ben.
To be judged is not necessarily the same thing as being either condemned, or excused.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Apr 2, 2009)

I don't have anything terribly meaningful to contribute, aside from don't read Jack7's post while hungover.  The thinking, it hurts!  

I can only echo what others have said.  I like Kate having a non-triangular purpose on the island (though I knew the "save Claire" thing was coming a mile away) and the hint that perhaps Smokey is the one for changing the Others into the Others.


----------



## Jack7 (Apr 2, 2009)

> I don't have anything terribly meaningful to contribute, aside from don't read Jack7's post while hungover.




You know I get that a lot LP.
Well that, and, "don't listen to Jack when you're sober."


----------



## Mark (Apr 2, 2009)

Can't read you when hungover or listen to you sober, which leaves only following your lead while drunk.  Well, if you're buying . . .


----------



## Arnwyn (Apr 2, 2009)

Not sure about this episode... to much mumbo-jumbo with a dash of stupid-stick beatings. 

"He will never be the same again. He won't remember any of this, he'll lose his innocence, and he'll be one of us forever. Mugga mugga zing wow."

Wha? zugga zugga? Hopefully they'll explain what the heck is going on, as that "temple" seems to be somewhat important. That was the most interesting part of this otherwise dull episode (well, that, and Hurley and Miles essentially making fun of Lost and the silliness of time travel in general).

Jack is the only one who made sense, while Juliet can shut her y self-righteous pie-hole right quick, thankyouverymuch.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Apr 2, 2009)

For me the best part was right at the end, the surprise that Ben had on seeing Locke.


----------



## Asmo (Apr 2, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> Sayid though obviously had no intention of killing Ben. Had he intended to do so, and since they were alone, and being an experienced killer as others have pointed out, he could have easily delivered a body shot, followed by a shot to the brain stem (people survive random head shots) and one to the heart. I suspect that he was trying to provoke exactly what he did, the transformation of Ben from what he was (as a boy) into what he will become. Though not necessarily into what he has been in the past. That is to say his intention was I suspect not so much to kill Ben as to kill something that has yet to grow in Ben.




I´m not sure I´m following you here, but why would Sayid want to start the creation of Ben, the monster? The one who probably is responsible for the killing of Sayids one, true love?


----------



## Jack7 (Apr 3, 2009)

> I´m not sure I´m following you here, but why would Sayid want to start the creation of Ben, the monster? The one who probably is responsible for the killing of Sayids one, true love?




He's not. He's interested in recreating Ben as something else.

Let me put it this way. Ben infiltrated the Dharma group for years and years.
Now suppose you relive all of that in reverse, but Ben infiltrates both groups?

Ben never became what John did, who can and does walk between both groups easily. But John is an outcast in the outside or "real world," whereas Ben is a well-connected and sophisticated and devious player in both the real world, and on the Island. Think about what that means. He's Satanic. He fits in everywhere, but he can't really achieve anything anywhere. John fits in no-where, and yet he is the Key to the Kingdom. Ben can steal the Keys to the Kingdom, and set the prisoners temporarily free, _but he can't be the Keys to the Kingdom_, and fix things more permanently. 

That being said the show can't continue to progress forever from the 1970s to the now. It's too big a period of time to cover. So certain things are going to have to be compressed and then dislocated both forwards and in reverse.

What I suspect the Island wants is to re-write the past without changing it.
Because you can't change the past, per se,, but what you can do is add to it (and/or subtract from it) to such a degree that it comes out different.

Or, let me put it this way. You can't reform a man by going into the past to change his past. But in order to reform a man must go back to the beginning and start all over again so that he comes out in a different place than where he left off when he started his reform. You rewrite the past not by altering it, but by altering yourself. You rework the past when you rework yourself. The old things come out different even though they never changed.

And if Ben becomes altered, so does Sayid.
If it works then it doesn't just help Ben, it reforms Sayid.

It's a kind of resurrection.
But resurrections never happen til the Old Man dies.

So the Old Men keep dying.
Til they don't need to anymore.


----------



## Mark (Apr 9, 2009)

Getting some info on the others.


----------



## David Howery (Apr 10, 2009)

well, whadduyaknow!  Ben couldn't kill Penelope because she was mum to a little boy.

All together now:  Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....


----------



## Krug (Apr 11, 2009)

David Howery said:


> well, whadduyaknow!  Ben couldn't kill Penelope because she was mum to a little boy.
> 
> All together now:  Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....




It looked like he was still considering it 



Spoiler



until Desmond gave him a major nosebleed.


 

Image on Smokey's room:
http://scuttle.mirror.waffleimages.com/data/files/78/78ea2dc13cbeef33e75631eb3ce6478766481bd7.jpg


----------



## Arnwyn (Apr 13, 2009)

That was an alright episode - unfortunately tremendously marred by the lazy retcon.

Ben took Rousseau's baby? Meh. If that were the case, she would have popped him one when she first caught him as "Henry Gale" in her net. (And suggesting otherwise would simply be reaching and making things up, AFAIC.)

*sigh*


----------



## coyote6 (Apr 13, 2009)

Rousseau's primary secondary* motivation was to get her kid back, and killing Ben wouldn't have done that. In addition, it had been years since Ben took Alex; if that was their only meeting, she might not have recognized him as being the guy (Rousseau was a little bit crazy, after all). 

*Rousseau's primary motivation would have to have been survival, to have managed to avoid death by Smoke Monster, time-displaced fellows, off-island interlopers (cf. Desmond, Clancy Brown, Nigerian heroin smugglers, etc), Others, polar bears, dead friends, and so forth, for 15+ years, while all alone. 

Heck, given that she did somehow survive all that, she may have had a tete-a-tete with Jacob, Richard, the Monster, or some other entity in the meantime that somehow ameliorated her rage against Ben.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Apr 13, 2009)

Arnwyn said:


> Ben took Rousseau's baby? Meh. If that were the case, she would have popped him one when she first caught him as "Henry Gale" in her net. (And suggesting otherwise would simply be reaching and making things up, AFAIC.)




Alternatively, she thought that killing Ben would be sure to end in Alex's death, as he threatened when he took her.  In which case, she did the next best thing - turn him over to the "good guys."  Hardly "reaching and making things up."


----------



## Felon (Apr 13, 2009)

David Howery said:


> well, whadduyaknow!  Ben couldn't kill Penelope because she was mum to a little boy.
> 
> All together now:  Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....



Yet he's still quite capable of needlessly killing an unarmed guy who was rushing to his defense. Inconsistent conscience.


----------



## Arnwyn (Apr 14, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> Alternatively, she thought that killing Ben would be sure to end in Alex's death, as he threatened when he took her.  In which case, she did the next best thing - turn him over to the "good guys."  Hardly "reaching and making things up."



Yet, from what I remember, she gave absolutely zero indication that this was the guy who took her baby, not even mentioning "oh guys - btw, he was the one who nabbed Alex. Just sayin', as you go on and on debating as to if he is _even a member of the Others in the first place_". Not even facial expressions, tone, nothing. (Can anyone go back and _definitively_ see if she expressed any form of recognition?)

I'm going to have to go with "reaching". Sorry.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> Rousseau's primary secondary* motivation was to get her kid back, and killing Ben wouldn't have done that.



See above.



> In addition, it had been years since Ben took Alex; if that was their only meeting, she might not have recognized him as being the guy (Rousseau was a little bit crazy, after all).



Not recognize _the guy that stole her baby_? Highly unlikely. And note that any time one must explain away logical inconsistencies, flaws, and retcons with "she's crazy" is a significant blemish on the show.



> Heck, given that she did somehow survive all that, she may have had a tete-a-tete with Jacob, Richard, the Monster, or some other entity in the meantime that somehow ameliorated her rage against Ben.



That would be the "making things up" I alluded to with my previous post.


*shrug* It was a retcon. While it made for a good, tight episode, it hurt it as a (already scattershot) series. If we're lucky they'll come up with something to make it fit (as Lost is in the enviable position of being able to re-insert what scenes they need when they need it).


----------



## coyote6 (Apr 14, 2009)

It was almost certainly a retcon, but I don't have a problem with it; if that was the only time she saw him, then it was a guy she saw once (for what? 90 seconds?), 15+ years before, right after she just woke up, and then she lost her kid. Stress does can really futz with memories, and she certainly seems to be a person that's high-strung. I don't find it unbelievable that she wouldn't immediately recognize Ben as _the guy_.


----------



## dravot (Apr 16, 2009)

great episode.  Nice backstory on Miles, and the Star Wars tie in was great.


----------



## stonegod (Apr 16, 2009)

dravot said:


> great episode.  Nice backstory on Miles, and the Star Wars tie in was great.



I wanted the "corrected" Empire!


----------



## RangerWickett (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm going to go graffiti Wikipedia and say that Hugo Reyes wrote Empire Strikes Back.

edit: Empire needs no fixing. What we need is a fixed Return of the Jedi.


----------



## stonegod (Apr 16, 2009)

RangerWickett said:


> edit: Empire needs no fixing. What we need is a fixed Return of the Jedi.



Probably not, but I do wonder what Hurley's "Corrected Scene" looks like.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Apr 16, 2009)

RangerWickett said:


> I'm going to go graffiti Wikipedia and say that Hugo Reyes wrote Empire Strikes Back.
> 
> edit: Empire needs no fixing. What we need is a fixed Return of the Jedi.




This from the man with the Ewok as an avatar!


----------



## Mallus (Apr 16, 2009)

I am loving this show. These backstory flashback episodes work so much better now that they're paired with overt scifi lunacy.

Also, Faraday's back next week... yay!


----------



## Jack7 (Apr 16, 2009)

> edit: Empire needs no fixing. What we need is a fixed Return of the Jedi.





All too true. _Empire_ was the greatest of the whole series.
_Return _was one of the weakest in many ways.

I'm wondering though if Hugo is not really merely a device for the writers to rewrite _Star Wars_ in their own image as_ Star Trek_ is being re-written, and as _Battlestar Galactica_ was. And I find that a really interesting idea.

I too was extremely glad to see the storyline involving Miles, as I had awhile back figured out who his Old Man was, as the good Doc is one of the resurrecting Old Men of the show, and because Miles is one of the most interesting unexplored characters on the entire show. And I'm really interested to see what experiment that Miles was exposed to, accidentally or not, that triggered his "powers," which are very _Heroes_ like. Though I already think that last night's "filling episode" was a clue.

I'm also glad to see Faraday back who always seems to know exactly what is happening in the background, though he thinks he is powerless to influence events, no matter what timeline he appears in.

I also have some idea, a general one at least, of "what lies in the shadow..." and so I'm looking forwards to the next couple of weeks. And to seeing more of the "Van Boys." The detective in me has alreayd noticed something odd about them, especially the spokesman, and his mouth.

I wanna see if it plays out like I suspect.

All in all I found this one to be an excellent episode.


----------



## Mark (Apr 17, 2009)

I wonder if this will tie back into the teleporting and/or reproducing rabbits?


----------



## Elodan (May 7, 2009)

Don't know about anybody else but I've enjoyed the past few episodes.  Looking forward to the season finale next week.

I pretty much figure the whole purpose of the Losties going back to the past is to create the thing that causes the button to be pushed which we eventually crash their plane.


----------



## stonegod (May 7, 2009)

Elodan said:


> I pretty much figure the whole purpose of the Losties going back to the past is to create the thing that causes the button to be pushed which we eventually crash their plane.



Stable Time Loops for the win.

The two eps have all been winners. I like man of action Locke, Faraday is always good, and calm Juliet is vying to remove Hurley as my fave.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 7, 2009)

I honestly think Lost is absolutely as good as it's ever been. While I might not argue that any particular episode is better than some of the earlier ones, the overall plot and pacing are top notch and make the show a complete must-watch for us.


----------



## dravot (May 8, 2009)

Great stuff - the best at time travel I think I've ever seen.  Lots of reveals in every episode, with new mysteries quickly replacing them.

I officially forgive the producers for season 3.


----------



## RangerWickett (May 8, 2009)

Faraday's spiel last week about how humans are 'variables' annoyed the hell out of me. It went wildly against what he had said previously about time being immutable, and unless I missed something, the change of outlook seemed inappropriate to his character. 

Sawyer, Kate, and Juliet leaving confused me from a storytelling perspective. It sort of lowers the tension level for me. They've safely gotten away, and no one seems too upset about leaving the island, so that's a bizarrely happy note in the middle of what I expected to be the build-up to some sort of doomsday.


----------



## stonegod (May 8, 2009)

dravot said:


> Great stuff - the best at time travel I think I've ever seen.  Lots of reveals in every episode, with new mysteries quickly replacing them.
> 
> I officially forgive the producers for season 3.



Negotiating a known "end-date" was the best thing the producers ever did for the show. B5 was great because it had a plan, and wandered when that plan was messed w/ (such as the signs of cancellation as Season 4).


----------



## Mark (May 8, 2009)

Lots of surprises. Very good episode.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 8, 2009)

RangerWickett said:


> Faraday's spiel last week about how humans are 'variables' annoyed the hell out of me. It went wildly against what he had said previously about time being immutable, and unless I missed something, the change of outlook seemed inappropriate to his character.




My assumption (and it's only that) is that something happened to Faraday to make him think that he could change the future.  However, via course correction that was perhaps not the case.  I don't recall Faraday ever mentioning course correction - that was all Desmond/Charlie and events we've seen but Faraday hasn't.  It's possible he doesn't know about it.



> Sawyer, Kate, and Juliet leaving confused me from a storytelling perspective. It sort of lowers the tension level for me. They've safely gotten away, and no one seems too upset about leaving the island, so that's a bizarrely happy note in the middle of what I expected to be the build-up to some sort of doomsday.




First off, I should mention that I absolutely _hate _this forced triangle thing with them.  I think putting Kate on the sub cheapened what _should _have been a scene that is reminiscent of the raft leaving the island (also a penultimate episode, IIRC).  Sure, everyone else is in danger - but Sawyer and Juliet live happily ever after, or at least have the chance to.

Second, that assumes the sub actually leaves the island's "field".  We know that it's not enough to get off the island, but to get far enough away from it.  If it's supposed to be a callback to the raft, then it's likely they _don't_ get off the island.  It's the hope before the crushing despair.

Thirdly, and tangentially, that made me think of WALLLLT! and hence Herold Perrineau.  I'm really enjoying The Unusuals.  Random aside.


----------



## dravot (May 8, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> My assumption (and it's only that) is that something happened to Faraday to make him think that he could change the future.  However, via course correction that was perhaps not the case.  I don't recall Faraday ever mentioning course correction - that was all Desmond/Charlie and events we've seen but Faraday hasn't.  It's possible he doesn't know about it.




Faraday was on the island believing that time was immutable.  Then he went off to Dharma HQ in Ann Arbor for 3 years, and came back believing in variables.




LightPhoenix said:


> First off, I should mention that I absolutely _hate _this forced triangle thing with them.  I think putting Kate on the sub cheapened what _should _have been a scene that is reminiscent of the raft leaving the island (also a penultimate episode, IIRC).  Sure, everyone else is in danger - but Sawyer and Juliet live happily ever after, or at least have the chance to.




The forced triangles aren't working for me.  They seem forced for me too.


----------



## Remus Lupin (May 14, 2009)

To quote Steve Buscemi from "Reservoir Dogs": "Great, now I'm f****** tormented."


----------



## Jack7 (May 14, 2009)

_*Did anybody catch what Richard said in Latin?*_

I don't hear very well but I thought, well, I just better be sure. Did anyone hear?


----------



## RangerWickett (May 14, 2009)

This was a terrible episode, capping a mediocre season.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 14, 2009)

Great episode, capping the best season in years, hooray!

I didn't catch what he said, no, but am curious.


----------



## Jack7 (May 14, 2009)

If it's what I think he said, and I'd like to see it written that would be interesting because the Ankh and the rest of the statue is missing, exposing only the right foot.

Meaning he's under the foot, but the shadow of the full statue would have been cast behind him (the statue figure) as the sun rose, I think, given the prior ship board sighting of the statue remains, from starboard I believe. I'm trying to remember the time of day the people on the boat saw the statue remains, which I believe had both legs showing at that time. If that is the case then that means the explosions didn't wipe out the statue, time is degenerating it. (Because it is running backwards in time?) And it would explain Jacob's weaving on the loom.

But if it wasn't what I thought he said then it has a double, or perhaps triple, meaning.

When I first saw the box I knew it was John's body.

Now I know why the kids in the van looked familiar when they scooped up Miles. And why the radiation burns (I'm pretty sure that's what it was) on Ilana.

2010. Dammit.
Dammit all.

Anywho, I really liked this finale.

Edit: then again if he lives under the statue and that fires burns all of the time then he is the one who sits in the shadow of the statue and it is he who will "shelter us all."

Ben kills John, and now apparently kills Jacob, so Ben cannot be the sacrificial man and had no choice because it was an intended sacrifice - _*By knife, and fire.*_

That means it's the old altar beneath the Ankh.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 14, 2009)

Apparently he said 



Spoiler



Ille qui nos omnes servabit


, which would translate to 



Spoiler



"He who will protect/save us all."


----------



## Mark (May 14, 2009)

Good ending.  Kept my interest.  I am keen to tune into the 2010 season to see how it all resolves.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 14, 2009)

Fast Learner said:


> Apparently he said
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Still going with....
[sblock]
Anubis & Osiris mythos
Island = Philae
Statue = Taueret
[/sblock]


----------



## Arnwyn (May 14, 2009)

Not half bad.

Proves to me, though, that the only episodes _really_ worth watching are the premiers, finales, and recaps! (Especially with the two writers, who actually bother to _tell you what's going on_.) It also proves to me that Lost would have actually been a great series if it was only 4 (or even just 3) seasons long. It's extension out to 6 seasons really hurt the quality of the show.

So it's some kind of 'eternal struggle', is it? Hmmm... that's kind of interesting. I'm not sure what the show is trying to portray, though. It seemed to me that it was trying to make Jacob seem like a nice/good guy, and the other guy a kind of villain. But we know that's a load of crap, because if Jacob really is the leader of the Others then he is a despicable hateful person. So, I have to wonder what the show is trying to do... one bad guy and one worse guy? That's pretty bad writing, if that's how it'll turn out.

So needless to say, I cheered when Jacob got his. Ahhh... that was nice. I also cheered when Juliet went down the hole - that was nice, too (but then cried to see she wasn't dead and splattered). Oh well... can't win 'em all.

"Ricardus"... heh, that was cool. And nice to see they actually showed more of the statue and explained a (tiny) bit more. More info on the island is always good. Less character stuff for Lost (Kate is a complete twit, and has been for 3 seasons now) is also good. As others have mentioned - that whole triangle (now square?) thing isn't working for me.


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## Fast Learner (May 14, 2009)

I'm not so sure that Jacob leads the Others at all. He certainly doesn't acknowledge it to Ben, and gets stabbed as a result. I didn't cheer at all.

Smokey/Christian/New Locke/Claire/Esau is the one going around killing people, judging them and killing them. Jacob is the one weaving the threads to bring them to the island. I'm not so sure the good/evil thing is at all clear at this point.


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## Arnwyn (May 14, 2009)

Well, that _is_ why I included the word "if":


			
				Arnwyn said:
			
		

> because *if* Jacob really is the leader of the Others




But, Ben and Richard did confirm they have a relationship with Jacob, that the "lists" came from Jacob, Richard knew the hangout of Jacob, etc. Walks/quacks like a duck... They'll have to have some cute little narrative contortions in the last season if they want to have it otherwise. I'm definitely looking forward to full disclosure.

(And the Others beat and kill people. Often, viciously, quickly, no questions asked. As the instigators. That has long since been shown and made abundantly clear over 5 seasons. That's not up for debate, AFAIC.)


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## Fast Learner (May 14, 2009)

I understand you're saying "if," but that doesn't really scan with your cheering when Jacob was killed, as far as I can tell.

Ben never spoke to Jacob, got his notes from someone, we don't know who. Only Richard has said that Jacob leads the Others. 

Yes, the Others are bad guys, I'm not arguing that. Jacob's ties to the Others aren't indicated by anyone except Smokey/Esau/New Locke and Richard. Doesn't require any contortion other than "Richard was misled" or "Richard is intentionally misleading." Ben being misled by Smokey/Esau isn't difficult to imagine at all.


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## Arnwyn (May 14, 2009)

Fast Learner said:


> I understand you're saying "if," but that doesn't really scan with your cheering when Jacob was killed, as far as I can tell.



Oh heavens, just personal bias on my part. If it's even remotely related to the Others and something bad happens to them, I 'cheer' at home while I watch.

My personal preferences and reactions scan just fine, thanks.



> Ben never spoke to Jacob, got his notes from someone, we don't know who. Only Richard has said that Jacob leads the Others.



Sure. And I'm going with that.



> Doesn't require any contortion



We'll see.


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## Fast Learner (May 14, 2009)

Didn't mean anything negative about it seeming to "not scan," just didn't follow your intention.


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## El Mahdi (May 19, 2009)

Don't know if anyone is following this thread anymore (last post was 4 days ago) but I only just now saw the finale.

I did a wikipedia search on Egyptian deities and think I've got a match. I believe it's the god Sobek, minus the sun disc on his head (which would mean he's an early incarnation - before his connection with Ra). Sobek was a righter of wrongs and a creation deity. Any idea what that may mean for the shows plot?

If it's not Sobek, the only other possiblity I see is Ammit. Ammit is a god of the underworld who enacts divine retribution for the wrongs one commits in life. That may be a cool connection to the island, but I think Sobek is probably the more correct choice.

So, what do you all think?




P.S.: Sawyer and Jack have been heading for that confrontation since day 1.  It's about damn time they had it out.


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## Fast Learner (May 19, 2009)

Sobek is a good guess, but apparently (page 6) it's Taweret, mistress of the horizon and the demon-wife of Apep, the original Egyptian god of evil.


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## Morrus (May 19, 2009)

Where are people getting this "Esau/Smokey/New Locke" stuff from? have I missed something? People seem to be discussing it as though it were obvious and a definite fact, but I don't recall seeing anything to confirm it.

- I recall the Jacob/Esau bibilical story. I recall at the start of the episode jacob was on the beach with someone else who said he'd kill him when he found a loophole, and that the fake Locke confirmed to Jacob that he'd found said loophole (not that I understand what loophole he found), which indicates fake Locke is the same guy who sat on the beach with Jacob.

- I don't, however, recall him being referred to as "Esau" (did I just miss it?), or that he was the smoke monster.   Is there more to that conclusion than one of them just happening to be called "Jacob"?

Problem with the show is that it's so convoluted and changeable, and with so many random scheduling gaps, that I lose track of what's going on. 

- Does "Ricardus" mean anything, or is just an indication that Richard's old?


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## Viking Bastard (May 19, 2009)

The Lost fan community has dubbed the unnamed loophole guy 'Esau' because of the Jacob/Esau myth. There may be some theories floating around, but it's just a handy name.


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## Fast Learner (May 19, 2009)

Yeah, in my case, I hadn't heard anything from "the Lost community," I just used it as a handy name.


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## dravot (May 20, 2009)

Fast Learner said:


> Yeah, in my case, I hadn't heard anything from "the Lost community," I just used it as a handy name.




He's in the credits as "Jacob's Enemy".  Esau works well as a short-hand.  Even if they aren't using Jacob and Esau, it works for us, for now.


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