# PH2: Shapeshifter druid variant



## Shaele (Jun 22, 2006)

Hi,

I'm looking for thoughts/advice/clarification on this variant from the PH2. I'm DM'ing a new campaign, with a druid that wants to take a shapeshifter over a straight-up druid. At first glance, it looks great - not too powerful, but interesting, and well-defined rules around shapeshifting (for those that haven't seen it - you give up standard wild shape and an animal companion for the ability to wild shape an unlimited number of times per day, swiftly, into a small number of forms).

Then I noticed what was missing
* the ability to take an aquatic form to swim or breath underwater. You have land-based forms and aerial forms only.
* the ability to burrow, climb, or do anything aside from fight.
* any regular movement-based abilities at all. You can't assume the form of a monkey, for example, to get a climb bonus - you use your own skills, regardless of form.
* the ability to assume any small or tiny creature. No more songbirds, cats etc.
* the ability to assume any huge form. No more massive creatures in combat.
* no more natural spellcasting feat - they're specifically excluded from taking it.

Now I'm scratching my head. Sure, you get the ability to swiftly change into and out of combat forms, but I think you lose a *lot* of utility. It's more pronounced if you consider all of the Wild Shape feats that a straight-up druid can use to enhance their abilities, that a Shapeshifter can't access. I can't help but think that this char at 13th level will pale in comparison to the 13th level druid with Natural Spellcasting, Fast Wild Shape, Extra Wildshape from our old campaign.

Anyone else see it this way? I can't help but think I'm missing something here...
 

Cheers
Shaele


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## MarkB (Jun 22, 2006)

Well, you don't get shapechange forms to cover all the bases, but there are still plenty of druid spells to cover that sort of thing. Water Breathing, Spider Climb and Freedom of Movement are all on the Druid spell list, so you'll have those abilities if you need them.


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## szilard (Jun 22, 2006)

Many people seem to like it.

I feel the same way you do.

Some possible fixes:

1. Add in a aquatic form.
2. Give appropriate movement and such to the elemental forms (swim speed and water breathing for Water, fly speed for Air, burrow speed for Earth, burn ability for Fire).
3. Make the forest defender form actually plant-like in some useful way.
4. Allow Shapeshifting Druids to buy Wild Shape feats that burn Wild Shape uses. Allow them to either use these abilities a certain number of times a day or use unused spell slots to power them.
5. Create Shapeshifting feats that add abilities to the forms - or extra forms.
6. Every 4 or 5 levels give the Druid a free Wild Shape or Shapeshifting feat.

-Stuart


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## frankthedm (Jun 23, 2006)

Shaele said:
			
		

> Now I'm scratching my head. Sure, you get the ability to swiftly change into and out of combat forms, but I think you lose a *lot* of utility. It's more pronounced if you consider all of the Wild Shape feats that a straight-up druid can use to enhance their abilities, that a Shapeshifter can't access. I can't help but think that this char at 13th level will pale in comparison to the 13th level druid with Natural Spellcasting, Fast Wild Shape, Extra Wildshape from our old campaign.
> 
> Anyone else see it this way? I can't help but think I'm missing something here...
> 
> ...



1. Unlimited shifting means being able to talk to party members. Sure wild shaping lasts hours, but unless you waste a lot of duration, you become the odd "man" out and unable to communicate with your friends once you take a form. 
2. A DM might have already banned natural spell or the player might feel the feat is cheesy.
3. Some _players_ even feel it unfair that a physically strong druid's animal form are the same as a weaklings.
4. Normal wildshape means another set of stats to dink with.
5. Sometimes you want a set of thumbs.
6. Of course it will pale in comparison. This druid will be on the same level as the other party members.


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## ForceUser (Jun 23, 2006)

Shaele said:
			
		

> Anyone else see it this way?



No. Wild shape is broken because it's based on _polymorph_, and _polymorph _is broken. They are broken in that they are too powerful, too versatile, for a single ability/spell. So shapeshift, while admittedly a head-scratcher at times (no aquatic form?), is uniform and balanced. Don't like it? Don't use it. Or modify it. Whatever. Me, I prefer shapeshift, and the biggest reason that I feel it's balanced is because so many people whom I consider rules munchkins are screaming that it's a "nerf." Well, that and empirical observation--I've had a shapeshift druid IMC since the PHBII hit the shelves, and as far as I can tell, he kicks butt and has no complaints whatsoever.


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## frankthedm (Jun 23, 2006)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Me, I prefer shapeshift, and the biggest reason that I feel it's balanced is because so many people whom I consider rules munchkins are screaming that it's a "nerf."



They make such convicing arguments, don't they?


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## Tetsubo (Jun 23, 2006)

I happen to really like the new Shapeshifting option. If I could play a Druid at the moment I'd chose it myself. I did up a 20 level build for it just for fun.

The no aquatic form did confuse me. I think you need one. A strength based primate form might also be handy for climbing and such.


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## Shaele (Jun 23, 2006)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Me, I prefer shapeshift, and the biggest reason that I feel it's balanced is because so many people whom I consider rules munchkins are screaming that it's a "nerf." Well, that and empirical observation--I've had a shapeshift druid IMC since the PHBII hit the shelves, and as far as I can tell, he kicks butt and has no complaints whatsoever.




Well, it *is* a nerf, of a sort, in that you have fewer forms, and fewer abilities while in those forms. 

We're not powergamers by anyone's standards. The druid in our old campaign generally wildshaped to scout, or talk to other animals in the region. In combat, she'd generally stay elven so that she could talk to the party when it really mattered (e.g. "fall back for a heal!"). She occasionally wildshaped in combat, but since she could only do it a few times per day, tended to save them for non-combat activities. 

With the new rules, the same player wanted to try a shapeshifter so that she could do more of those types of activities. We expected her to be giving up some of her offensive abilties (i.e. no bear companion) to become a better shapeshifter. Instead, she's found that she's better in combat, but much less versatile than she used to be. 

That's what I find odd about the new shapechange rules: shapeshifter druids are actually worse at shapeshifting (in most respects) than straight-out druids with a couple of feats. They trade an animal companion, and most of the versatility, for better combat effectiveness. I'm not convinced that the two are equal... I can't help but think that a well-built 3.5 druid will be more effective in combat *and* have the versatility that the shapeshifter is lacking.

... and yes, I acknowledge that if you feel that natural spellcasting is "broken", and house-ruled it out, that this might be a more appealing class. We haven't done that though, so I'm stuck comparing the stock 3.5 druid with this variant. Call me an optimist, but I keep thinking that they should be roughly balanced against one another   

Shaele


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## Shaele (Jun 23, 2006)

*Lest I forget...*



			
				Tetsubo said:
			
		

> I happen to really like the new Shapeshifting option. If I could play a Druid at the moment I'd chose it myself. I did up a 20 level build for it just for fun.
> 
> The no aquatic form did confuse me. I think you need one. A strength based primate form might also be handy for climbing and such.




It probably hasn't come out in my earlier postings, but I like this variant too! As a few people have pointed out, it's advantages are pretty significant - swift shape, the ability to change back and forth to communicate with the party, stat boosts.

I'm leaning towards one of the earlier suggestions - adding in feats to allow the shapeshifter to take on aquatic, climbing and maybe even burrowing forms. 

RE: my earlier postings... please read them as questions and speculation on game design/balance more criticism of the rules 

Shaele


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## Piratecat (Jun 23, 2006)

If you were going to house-rule a feat to add an aquatic form (or a climbing form), how would you write it?


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## Mr Jack (Jun 23, 2006)

So, Polar Bears all round?

Do you steal heal?

Eek, I'm hurt! Cat, bat, cow, moose, beaver, back. I'm better now!


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## Shaele (Jun 23, 2006)

*Aquatic Form feat*



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> If you were going to house-rule a feat to add an aquatic form (or a climbing form), how would you write it?




Good question! Feats are difficult because the forms are clustered into pretty broad categories, and tries to apply the same stats and benefits to everything in that category (e.g. a "wolf" predator has the same stats as a "panther" predator. Do you include reptiles? If so, does a lizard bite for the same damage as a panther? Eep.)

Here's my first try. 

Aquatic Form [Shapeshifter]
Prerequisites: Shapeshifter druid, level 5.
Benefit: You can assume a Predator form that is native to fresh or salt-water environments, 
typically a shark or squid. You lose the ability to breathe air while in this form, but can 
breathe and move normally. You retain your normal predator stats, and move at a 60 movement rate through the water. 

At 10th level, you can extend these benefits to a Ferocious Predator shape, taking the form 
of a large waterbreathing creature such as a giant squid or giant shark. You retain the 
abilities of that form, and can breathe and navigate underwater at a 60 movement rate.
Normal: You cannot assume any aquatic forms.
Special: None

Thoughts on this
* I might have the names of the forms mixed up, I don't have the book in front of me
* the focus is on providing mobility and water breathing, not huge combat benefits
* stretching it across medium and large predator forms gives some combat versatility, and hopefully lets it remain useful at high levels
* the movement rate is tricky. Sharks and squid move at a 60, but crocodiles and octupi move much more slowly. The higher movement rate seems to be a feature of the Predator forms, so I opted for the higher movement rate and faster forms as an example
* I thought about adding in more combat abilities, much as the other forms gain a free "feat", but I thought that would be overpowering. This seems pretty useful as it is for a single feat.

PC, have I now shifted this thread into the House Rules? 

Thanks 
Shaele


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## Shaele (Jun 23, 2006)

Mr Jack said:
			
		

> So, Polar Bears all round?
> Do you steal heal?
> Eek, I'm hurt! Cat, bat, cow, moose, beaver, back. I'm better now!




You're restricted to medium and large mammals, avian, tree, and elemental forms. Nothing tiny like a cat or bat (depending on how you define some of the categories, they're vague).

You no longer heal when shifting. You can shift as often as you want, as a swift action, so it would have been pretty overpowering to leave that in 

Shaele


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## iceifur (Jun 23, 2006)

Ah, the Shapeshift variant druid. Despite the outcries to the contrary, I don't believe it's usable as-is. As a replacement for Wild Shape, it's weak. As a replacement for BOTH Wild Shape and the animal companion, it's downright criminal. Thus, after a bit of tinkering and such, I present to you the following modifications. Unless noted otherwise, all features are the same as that of the base Shapeshift variant. Feel free to take what you want and leave what you don't. Oh, and I apologize in advance for the length.


*Predator Form*


NEW - 1) Predator Form is now gained at 3rd level.​NEW - 2) At 6th level, you gain your choice of either...​A) the Trip (Ex) special ability while shifted (if the target is hit by your bite attack, you can make a trip attempt as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity, and the opponent cannot react to trip you if the trip fails)​or...​B) an increase of your base land speed while shifted to 60 feet.​Once made, the choice is permanent.​

*Aerial Form*


NEW - 1) Aerial Form becomes "Travel Form."​NEW - 2) At 5th level, you gain the ability to shift into the form of a flying, climbing, swimming, or burrowing creature (choose one). You traditionally take the form of an eagle or bat (flying), weasel or lizard (climbing), snake or caiman (swimming), or wolverine or badger (burrowing). You gain a primary natural attack, depending on the type of Travel form assumed: a bite that deals 1d6 damage (in climbing or swimming form), or a claw that deals 1d4 damage (in flying or burrowing form). Your size decreases by one category, and your reach becomes that of a long creature of your new size (0 feet if Tiny or Small, 5 feet if Medium). You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +2 enhancement bonus on Reflex saves, and your natural armor increases by +2. Your base land speed becomes 20 feet, and you also gain a new movement mode depending on the form assumed:​Flying: Fly 40 ft. (good maneuverability)
Climbing: Climb 30 ft.
Swimming: Swim 20 ft.
Burrowing: Burrow 10 ft.​Once made, your choice of Travel Form is permanent (but see the new feat below).​NEW - 3) At 7th level, you gain the equivalent of the Flyby Attack feat while shifted, though its benefit applies to the special movement gained by shifting.​NEW - 4) At 9th level, you gain a new special ability while shifted, depending on the Travel Form assumed:​Flying - Keen Eyesight (Ex): gain a +8 competence bonus on Spot checks.
Climbing - Perfect Balance (Ex): gain a +8 competence bonus on Balance checks.
Swimming - Hold Breath (Ex): you can hold your breath for (8 x Constitution score) rounds before you risk drowning.
Burrowing - Keen Hearing (Ex): gain a +8 competence bonus on Listen checks.​NEW - 5) At 11th level, you may assume a Travel Form of 2 size categories smaller than that of your normal form, gaining the following abilities (same as above unless noted): your primary natural attack's damage becomes 1d4 (bite) or 1d3 (claw), and your reach becomes that of a long creature of your new size (0 feet if Diminutive, Tiny, or Small); you lose your +2 enhancement bonus to Strength, but your enhancement bonus to Reflex saves increases to +4.​This ability enhances, but does not replace, your Travel Form (you may use either at your discretion).​
NEW FEAT​
*VERSATILE TRAVEL FORM [General]*
You are no longer restricted to a single form of travel.​*Prerequisite*: Travel Form.
*Benefit*: Choose one of the remaining Travel Form types that your don't know. You may now shift into that form in addition to that of your original choice.
*Normal*: You can only shift into a single type of Travel Form.
*Special*: This feat may be taken up to three times, each time granting an additional Travel Form type known.​

*Ferocious Slayer Form*


NEW - 1) At 13th level, you gain your choice of either...​A) the Pounce (Ex) special ability while shifted (if you charge a foe, you can make a full attack at the end of the charge).​or...​B) the Improved Grab (Ex) special ability while shifted (if you hit with a claw or bite attack, you can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity).​Once made, the choice is permanent.​

*Forest Avenger Form*


NEW - 1) At 17th level, you gain your choice of either...​A) the Double Damage Against Objects (Ex) special ability while shifted (you deal double damage to objects and structures when making a full attack).​or...​B) an increase of your Damage Reduction while shifting to DR 10/slashing.​Once made, the choice is permanent.​

*Elemental Fury Form*


NEW - 1) Instead of immunity to only the extra damage from critical hits, you gain immunity to both critical hits and sneak attacks.​NEW - 2) At 20th level, you gain additional elemental damage to your slam attacks while shifted, depending on the elemental form currently assumed. The amount of extra damage is the same as that of your base slam damage (i.e. 2d6 for a Medium druid shifted into Elemental Fury Form), and is comprised of the same energy as your current elemental form's immunity (electricy, acid, fire, or cold).​


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 24, 2006)

The funny thing is I wrote out a system that is a bit similar to the Shapeshifting Druid variant, but was a lot more flexible (and harder to balance). A Druid in that variant had a certain number of "wild shape points" (so to say) that he could use to gain ability score bonus, special attacks, movement modes (including speed increases) and so on. 

While the Shapeshift variant is a lot less flexible than that, but it is a quick and (not) dirty method of achieving what one would thematically expect from Wildshape.


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## airwalkrr (Jun 25, 2006)

I am a big fan of the shapeshifter variant. It captures the feel of what a druid should be much better imho. Plus, I like the unlimited uses per day. But Shaele brings up some good points. The lack of certain forms is its biggest weakness. However, I think it can be easily addressed with a few simple feats (as some have mentioned).

Aquatic Form
3rd level druid with shapeshifter variant, Swim 4 ranks
This most often resembles a dolphin or a large fish. You gain an aquatic form with a swim speed equal to your base land speed. You also gain a +4 enhancement to Str and your natural armor bonus improves by 4. You can breathe water in your aquatic form. At 7th level, your swim speed improves to 1 1/2 times your base land speed.

Burrower Form
6th level druid with shapeshifter variant, Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks
This most often resembles a badger or a gopher of some kind. Your size is reduced by one size category. You gain a burrow speed equal to half your base land speed. You also gain a +4 enhancement to Dex and +4 bonus to Fortitude saves. Your natural armor bonus also improves by 4. At 10th level your burrow speed equals your full base land speed.

Climber Form
9th level druid with shapeshifter variant, Climb 4 ranks
This most often resembles a monkey or ape. You gain a climb speed equal to one half your base land speed. You also gain a +8 enhancement to Str, a +4 enhancement to Fortitude saves and your natural armor bonus improves by 8. At 13th level your climb speed improves to your full base land speed.

Inconspicuous Form
12th level druid with shapeshifter variant, Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks, Survival 4 ranks
This most often resembles a rat or other small rodent. Your size is reduced by two size categories. You gain a +12 enhancement bonus to Dex, a +6 enhancement bonus to Fortitude saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 4. Your base land speed becomes 20. At 16th level, you gain a climb speed and a burrow speed of 20.

These might requires tweaks to fit your personal taste but they aren't too bad imho.


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## Drowbane (Jun 25, 2006)

*"Broken!!!" is the battlecry of an inexperienced DM."*



			
				Shaele said:
			
		

> Then I noticed what was missing
> * the ability to take an aquatic form to swim or breath underwater. You have land-based forms and aerial forms only.
> * the ability to burrow, climb, or do anything aside from fight.
> * any regular movement-based abilities at all. You can't assume the form of a monkey, for example, to get a climb bonus - you use your own skills, regardless of form.
> ...




I haven't seen Shapeshift in use yet, but it seems flawed for all the reasons you state above.  Perhaps they'll get it right in 4e.

Wild Shape is only "broken!" if it is misused.  Natural Spell is the real culprit.  Ok, well perhaps Wildshape is too good, but why did they feel the need to get rid of Animal Companion as well in a fix for wildshape?  

I'm not sure I even believe in "broken!!!"  All too often I've seen otherwise great DM's have a fit over simple mechanics issues.



			
				airwalkrr said:
			
		

> ...I think it can be easily addressed with a few simple feats.
> 
> Aquatic Form
> 3rd level druid with shapeshifter variant, Swim 4 ranks
> ...




Feats are rare enough as is.  I'd rather see these new forms baked into the Shifter-Druid's level progression for free.  Its the least they could do for taking away our pets.


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## kigmatzomat (Jun 25, 2006)

I think I'm just going to put an option for any form to either be avian or aquatic and see if that deals with it.  It is simpler and not that problematic.  I might add a feat to allow larger/smaller wildshaping.  

One of the PCs is about to add a druid cohort so I'm going to suggest these options to him.  That way if it gets retconned it isn't his primary character.


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## airwalkrr (Jun 26, 2006)

Drowbane said:
			
		

> Feats are rare enough as is.  I'd rather see these new forms baked into the Shifter-Druid's level progression for free.  Its the least they could do for taking away our pets.




I don't see that it would be game-breaking to allow a shifter variant to have an animal companion. If the DM really thinks it needs to be limited, maybe the shifter druid's AC advances like a ranger's, but I wouldn't have any problem with tossing that part of the shifter variant requirements out. The shifter-druid eschews the utility of wild shape (whose uses/day isn't really a restriction at high levels) for a few forms that are mostly just good at fighting. Although ACs can be a good help in combat, IME they are usually little more than a speed bump, which isn't much different from just summoning animals every combat.

Another possible idea is to give the shifter druid a spell, maybe it costs a minimal amount of XP or GP, maybe not, called Summon Animal Companion, like they had in previous editions. The animal companion would only stick around for 1 hour/level, you could only have one at a time, and the type would vary according to spell level. E.g. there would be SAC I, SAC II, and so on. Use the summon nature's ally table as a guideline. Or yet another possibility is to make the animal companion like a paladin's mount. A shifter-druid can only summon it for a prescribed period of time per day, and once the AC is sent away, it can't be recalled until a new day arises.


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## Urbanmech (Jun 26, 2006)

I'm playing the Shapeshift druid in ForceUser's game.  I've played about 6-8 sessions with the character and so far I'm happy with Shapeshift.  I think the lack of an aquatic form and a climbling form was intentional.  Druids are given all kinds of movement spells; spider climb, water breathing, freedom of movement etc.  Shapeshift actually gives you a reason to use these spells.  If you want to scout use the camoflague line of spells from Spell Compendium or let the rogue do it.  Try Shapeshift in play for a bit and see how if works for you.  It really makes you look at the druid spell list in a different way, I'm having tons of fun so far squeezing new uses out of old spells.


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