# Heroes Season 1(#21)---5/07/07-'The Hard Part'



## Truth Seeker (May 7, 2007)

*The Hard Point.*​
*Star*:  *Noah Gray-Cabey (Micah Sanders),  Santiago Cabrera (Isaac Mendez),  Sendhil Ramamurthy (Mohinder Suresh),  Adrian Pasdar (Nathan Petrelli),  Ali Larter (Niki Sanders),  Greg Grunberg (Matt Parkman),  Hayden Panettiere (Claire Bennet),  Jack Coleman (Mr. Bennet / HRG),  Leonard Roberts (D.L. Hawkins),  Masi Oka (Hiro Nakamura),  Milo Ventimiglia (Peter Petrelli) * 

Recurring Role:  *James Kyson Lee (Ando Masahashi),  Zachary Quinto (Sylar),  Missy Peregrym (Candice Wilmer),  Cristine Rose (Angela Petrelli) * 

Guest Star:  *Eric Roberts (Thompson),  Ellen Greene (Virginia Grey),  Matthew John Armstrong (Ted Sprague),  Rena Sofer (Heidi Petrelli) * 


Hiro and Ando's determination is put to the test. Nathan wants to win the election and he's taking drastic measures to ensure that he will. This episode will feature Sylar, his home life, and where he came from. Jessica and D.L. discover some of the stuff that Linderman wants from them and Micah. Also there is a new hero who is supposed to be holding the key to stopping Sylar.​
Will it happen, or will it won't?

p.s. NO SPOILERS BARS EVER!!! Thank You.


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## Steel_Wind (May 8, 2007)

Soooo was that Angela Petrelli - or Candice?

I'm not sure. I can go either way on this one.


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## Steel_Wind (May 8, 2007)

After having seen the Canadian preview - and now the American preview for next week's episode?

Canada's was WAY better. Spoilers follow:



Spoiler



In the Global TV preview, It shows Thomson pointing a gun at Parkman's head off to the left of the screen.

Thomson sneers: _"What am I thinking now Parkman?"_

The Camera pans right as another gun is then levelled right behind  Thomson's head - inches away. The gun is being held by HRG!

HRG: _"Your last thought"_

*BLAM*


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## Vocenoctum (May 8, 2007)

Overall good episode I think, though the pacing was a little slow. They like to build to the cliffhanger and it seemed they didn't have enough to fill the space.

I didn't like Molly's power, but Candace's is that much cooler now. 


I have noticed something for a while now, but in the recaps/ flashbacks, it seems like they reshoot them rather than playing the old clip. This often results in wrong dialogue or scene's being noticeably different. Have they ever commented officially on this?


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## DonTadow (May 8, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Overall good episode I think, though the pacing was a little slow. They like to build to the cliffhanger and it seemed they didn't have enough to fill the space.
> 
> I didn't like Molly's power, but Candace's is that much cooler now.
> 
> ...



I really liked this episode, especially the quiet impacting ending. We see Peter and Ted in the same shot and I know we all thought, @#$#@#@$.  

I think it was Angela. Remember candace is babysitting baby forge and can't be in more than one place at at time.  

Man poor Hiro, how will he get the courage to kill Sylar. Probably not until Ando dies


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## papastebu (May 8, 2007)

1. Holy Crap.

2. Where did Sylar get ice powers? Is this something from the graphic novel? All I've got is crappy dial-up, and it takes way too long to download those things. I wish I could just order them and have them in my hands.


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## Taelorn76 (May 8, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> 1. Holy Crap.
> 
> 2. Where did Sylar get ice powers? Is this something from the graphic novel? All I've got is crappy dial-up, and it takes way too long to download those things. I wish I could just order them and have them in my hands.




In one of the first episodes of the series, there was a murder scene that the FBI was investigating, the body was frozen. We are led to believe that Sylar took the power to freeze from him. This was also the first time that we were introduced to Molly.


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## Steel_Wind (May 8, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I think it was Angela. Remember candace is babysitting baby forge and can't be in more than one place at at time.




Well - she IS in New York.  It's not that big a stretch. She was babysitting Micah when she was the one making him think she was Mom. After that facade ended, there was no need for that to continue uninterrupted. So I think it COULD have been her.

But....I don't think it was though. The reason I say so has nothing to do with Micah (those events took place over several days in the episode) but rather, what Angela Petrelli said to Nathan after Peter was apparently dead in Episode #19:

Nathan: _What do we do? _

Angela: _We hide it._

Nathan: _What?_

Angela: _Until after the election. The last thing he would have wanted to do is to bring you down with him._

She's still in *stick to the plan* mode, the patrician bitch.


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## Taelorn76 (May 8, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Soooo was that Angela Petrelli - or Candice?
> 
> I'm not sure. I can go either way on this one.



Wow, I didn't even think of that. 

It might be his mom though she seems like the power hungry type.


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## Steel_Wind (May 8, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> In one of the first episodes of the series, there was a murder scene that the FBI was investigating, the body was frozen. We are led to believe that Sylar took the power to freeze from him. This was also the first time that we were introduced to Molly.




Actually, we are lead to conclude (from the FBI's muder scene talk) and how this fits the MO of the previous killings that Sylar must have acquired it in one of the kills before the Walkers. (the crime scene at "Barstow", whatever that was) He used that power _at _the Walker crime scene on Mr. Walker to freeze him. 

The "Ice power" was also shown by Sylar at the end of episode #20 in the fight against Peter (who had flaming hands). The Fire vs. Ice showdown.


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## Alzrius (May 8, 2007)

Sylar's ice powers have been hinted at for a long time now. When we first saw the Walker family slaughtered in one of the first few episodes, the father was frozen. We also see him use the ice powers on his way to kill Zane Taylor (the guy with the melting power).

This episode showed quite a bit about Sylar. With a mother like that, who desperately NEEDED him to be special, it's easy to see why he went off the deep end like that. And then, with her losing it and rejecting him before she's accidentally killed...that'd drive even a sane person off the deep end.

That said, a lot of how they characterized Sylar in this episode felt...off. The part about him being worried about killing the people of New York felt hard to swallow (the justification for him feeling that way is there, but it's thin), especially after seeing the Evil President Sylar plotting genocide in last episode's alternate future. More than that though, seeing him begging his mother to tell him that he doesn't have to be special...it just feels too late. This is the sort of crisis he should have been having after he killed the first time, not after leaving potentially dozens of dead bodies in his wake without a backwards glance.

In short, the entire thing with his mother felt like a reason for why he'd then go insane and become a villain...only he's already done that.

I didn't quite get the part where he faced Hiro. Telling Hiro to kill him, and then calling him a coward when he couldn't makes sense...except that Sylar was holding the sword, and then froze it in half. 

This episode was a good one, but it felt like it was good in spite of itself.  :\


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## papastebu (May 8, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Actually, we are lead to conclude (from the FBI's muder scene talk) and how this fits the MO of the previous killings that Sylar must have acquired it in one of the kills before the Walkers. He used that power _at _the Walker crime scene on Mr. Walker to freeze him.
> 
> The "Ice power" was also shown by Sylar at the end of episode #20 in the fight against Peter (who had flaming hands). The Fire vs. Ice showdown.



 I had thought that this blue hands were just the flip-side of Ted's power, it being the future, and all.
We still don't know for sure who the bomb is. I am excited to find out, though. It seems that Peter would be the most likely to lose control, him being new to the power. But will it cut off if he's unconscious/dead? Same question for Sylar, since the death of his mother pushed him even further down the coo-coo path.


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## Steel_Wind (May 8, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> This episode showed quite a bit about Sylar. With a mother like that, who desperately NEEDED him to be special, it's easy to see why he went off the deep end like that. And then, with her losing it and rejecting him before she's accidentally killed...that'd drive even a sane person off the deep end.
> 
> That said, a lot of how they characterized Sylar in this episode felt...off. The part about him being worried about killing the people of New York felt hard to swallow (the justification for him feeling that way is there, but it's thin), especially after seeing the Evil President Sylar plotting genocide in last episode's alternate future.




It felt a bit like they were reaching, yes.

I think the writers have changed their tune a bit on Sylar as the season has evolved. What was supposed to be a guest villain who ended with the season turned out to be a very popular villain on the net and amongst their fanbase.

Remember, at the time they were filming Sylar's first crime scene and frozen bodies and moms staked to a wall with forks and alittle crying girl in a closet - Zach Quinto had not even been cast for the part.

"_Six months Ago_" changed everything and made Sylar a very popular character. 

Fandom loves Sylar. It's not too much a stretch to rank him as probably the second or third most popular character on the show. 

So Sylar's popular. Very popular among the fans. I think this attempt to humanize him and have him not be so black and white is the attempt to turn Sylar into more of a sympathetic anti-hero - and not just some serial killer.

Because Sylar has been signed for the second season. So they have to do something to rehabilitate this guy a bit and make him a bit more like Magneto, and a bit less like Ted Bundy.

So they clarify a few things in his motives and background: Sylar's fire  to be special was fueled by the needs of his mother. Sylar kills for power, yes, but he doesn't kill normals for kicks - he kills specials only to increase his power. In episode #20, he was even prepared to stop THAT after Claire. He didn't need any more power after her.

Similarly, the pathos and anguish over possibly wiping out half the city he grew up in and calls home hurts him and makes him reach out to those he felt close to - Mohinder, (closest thing he has to a friend - isn't that a sad comment on his life) and to his Mom.

It also served to humanize him in a way that Hiro could believably have difficulty in killing him.


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## papastebu (May 8, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> That said, a lot of how they characterized Sylar in this episode felt...off. The part about him being worried about killing the people of New York felt hard to swallow (the justification for him feeling that way is there, but it's thin), especially after seeing the Evil President Sylar plotting genocide in last episode's alternate future. More than that though, seeing him begging his mother to tell him that he doesn't have to be special...it just feels too late. This is the sort of crisis he should have been having after he killed the first time, not after leaving potentially dozens of dead bodies in his wake without a backwards glance.
> 
> In short, the entire thing with his mother felt like a reason for why he'd then go insane and become a villain...only he's already done that.
> 
> I didn't quite get the part where he faced Hiro. Telling Hiro to kill him, and then calling him a coward when he couldn't makes sense...except that Sylar was holding the sword, and then froze it in half.



I felt like Sylar was more comprehensible after this episode. Seeing how overbearing--albeit in a sweet, caring, supportive way ---his mom was, we see the dichotomy of the voices in his head. He wanted little more than to be like his dad. Many men grow into this as they mature, some start out with it. His mother was living vicariously through him, though, and wanted him to be more than his father was---it was obvious that she didn't respect the man.
I feel like Sylar was just riding the wave of discovery while acting on deeply-dysfunctional views. He discovered a way to be something more, and was doing so. Finding out he was going to become a bomb was like a slap in the face, a wake-up call. He had rationalized that the ones he'd already killed were necessary evils, but mass-murder was outside the paradigm. How do you make something that big go inside his tiny, little watch-body of a mind? His mother had been his guide. He went back to her to show what he could do, and to ask if he was special enough, yet.
Obviously, he wasn't. His mother's death was a serious blow to his already damaged psyche. Even though we see him as a villain, he wasn't in his own mind. He only was getting his due, as far as he was concerned. They didn't deserve what they had, he thought. He was asking his mom "Why would I do that?" about the bomb thing.
I think that the reason he wanted Hiro to kill him was that he felt that he needed to die for killing her, but suicide was a coward's way out. Sylar is not a coward, whatever else he is. He said he was then going to kill Hiro because he loathes cowardice. Holding the sword was a reflex, I think, as was the freezing.


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## papastebu (May 8, 2007)

Steel Wind, I see some of your points, but I don't agree that he's now more like Magneto. Unless it's the genocidal version.   He is now a part of the Happy Mutants for Nuclear Energy(TM) group, and is free of the shackles of morality and remorse.


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## Ed_Laprade (May 8, 2007)

Mostly a good episode. As usual, I had a couple of problems with it. Most have already been mentioned. Interestingly, the one I had the biggest problem with was Sylar's mom's death. Not that he killed her accidently, but that he _couldn't_! There is no way that the scissors could have been driven into her chest from where they had their hands.    

As for Sylar coming back next season, blah. The one thing I've long hated about the comics is villains coming back over and over no matter how many lives they ruin. Just kill the bastich and be done with it!


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## Steel_Wind (May 8, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Steel Wind, I see some of your points, but I don't agree that he's now more like Magneto.




I didn't mean that literally - I meant the writers are trying to nudge the character to at least having some noble human qualities  - however buried they may be. If they can show him to be more human, a man who has some redeeming qualities, he is more amenable to later flirting with the iconic touchstones of the anti-hero.

Otherwise, we are left with Hitler and the future's Final Solution to the Mutant Problem - or a portrayal of a souped up Ted Bundy.


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## papastebu (May 8, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I didn't mean that literally - I meant the writers are trying to nudge the character to at least having some noble human qualities  - however buried they may be. If they can show him to be more human, a man who has some redeeming qualities, he is more amenable to later flirting with the iconic touchstones of the anti-hero.
> 
> Otherwise, we are left with Hitler and the future's Final Solution to the Mutant Problem - or a portrayal of a souped up Ted Bundy.



Do you really think that they're trying to humanize him?
Look at _The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant_. The titular character resisted being what he'd suddenly become from the start until he couldn't do anything else but what he was made to do. I don't see Sylar ever coming  around like that. Granted, Thomas Covenant didn't murder, but he brought terror into peaceful people's lives through rape and connection to evils that were under control up to that point.
Does Sylar have the capability to save the world? I don't think so. He wants to be the only one who's special, so that his mother can rest. Or he can get relief from her. She told him to be president. He's gonna do that. I think that the writers are going to spark our interest even further with Sylar's development as a character, but as a monster-character, rather than a human being. He may come to be a savior in the public eye, but I think that from here on out, he'll be the tail that's wagging the dog, and the Spin King.


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## Taelorn76 (May 8, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> Mostly a good episode. As usual, I had a couple of problems with it. Most have already been mentioned. Interestingly, the one I had the biggest problem with was Sylar's mom's death. Not that he killed her accidently, but that he _couldn't_! There is no way that the scissors could have been driven into her chest from where they had their hands.




It's funny I thought the same thing when I saw that.


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## F5 (May 8, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> Interestingly, the one I had the biggest problem with was Sylar's mom's death. Not that he killed her accidently, but that he _couldn't_! There is no way that the scissors could have been driven into her chest from where they had their hands.




Based on the expression on her face after the stabbing, I kind of got the impression that she did it herself.  

More questions about Sylar, and one answer.  HOW did he manage to re-start time?  I doubt he has any kind of time-control power, and I also doubt he has the Haitian's power-cancelling power (if he did, he would have used it on Peter to make him go visual again, rather than the glass shards trick).  So, how did he do it?  Have we ever seen a power actually work on Sylar?  Maybe one of his tricks is Power Immunity.  

His re-starting time does answer one nagging question, though.  Why don't future Hiro or Peter just go back in time, freeze-frame and cut off Sylar's head?  Because they can't.  Time stop foesn't work on Sylar.  

I still want to see Micah take over Linderman's building, and wipe out his entire organization.  While sitting in his chair playing PlayStation.


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 8, 2007)

I'm trying to figure out if Bennet actually knows that he has to kill Molly in order to protect Claire.  He referred to her as the "Walker system" to Parkman and Ted.  Is he keeping it from them because he knows they wouldn't agree to killing a child, or does he not actually know that this "system" is in fact a child, one who Parkman has already helped once?

Two episodes left this season. Seems hard to believe they are actually going to wrap up this story in that amount of time, even though they have claimed that they will.  I hope it doesn't get resolved in a sudden, lame ending.


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 8, 2007)

F5 said:
			
		

> More questions about Sylar, and one answer.  HOW did he manage to re-start time?  I doubt he has any kind of time-control power, and I also doubt he has the Haitian's power-cancelling power (if he did, he would have used it on Peter to make him go visual again, rather than the glass shards trick).  So, how did he do it?  Have we ever seen a power actually work on Sylar?  Maybe one of his tricks is Power Immunity.
> 
> His re-starting time does answer one nagging question, though.  Why don't future Hiro or Peter just go back in time, freeze-frame and cut off Sylar's head?  Because they can't.  Time stop foesn't work on Sylar.



I wasn't sure that Sylar re-started time.  I thought perhaps that Hiro lost control while he was trying to kill Sylar, possibly because killing a helpless person would violate the Bushido code. 

Of course that then would not answer why Future Hiro or Peter didn't do it themselves.


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## DonTadow (May 8, 2007)

F5 said:
			
		

> Based on the expression on her face after the stabbing, I kind of got the impression that she did it herself.
> 
> More questions about Sylar, and one answer.  HOW did he manage to re-start time?  I doubt he has any kind of time-control power, and I also doubt he has the Haitian's power-cancelling power (if he did, he would have used it on Peter to make him go visual again, rather than the glass shards trick).  So, how did he do it?  Have we ever seen a power actually work on Sylar?  Maybe one of his tricks is Power Immunity.
> 
> ...



I don't think he restarted time. Hiro lost concentration. We know that for hiro (and peter) to stop time they have to concentrate. Hiro lost it becuse of his inability to kill a human being.  

Powers do work on Sylar. He couldn't see peter when he was invisible and hiro was able to stop time and get away from him. In both instances if sylar was immune to powers he wouldn't have been stopped and would have seen through Peter's Invisibility. 

As for the knife, even the mom couldn't do that. Sylar used his telekinesis as a reflex to stab her in the heart.  It makes no sense for the mom to commit suicide.  Sylar seems to be loosing control, so this makes perfect sense that he would react with a power when threatened. 

The main reason peter or sylar won't go back in time is because it would create paradoxes and conondrums.  The only reason future hiro would have risked that, was because nothing could have been worse than the future.  But look at what future hiro did before he did this. He spent probably months mapping out where exactly in the timeline he could do something and not screw it up.


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## pallandrome (May 8, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> It's funny I thought the same thing when I saw that.




Meybe he ate someone with super-scissor control?


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## Arnwyn (May 8, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> This episode was a good one, but it felt like it was good in spite of itself.  :\



Yeah, I agree with you, and the points you stated. I enjoyed the episode, _despite_ its content, not because of it. 

After that episode though, I am even more disappointed than I was before that Sylar is coming back next season. Very unfortunate.



			
				Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> As for Sylar coming back next season, blah. The one thing I've long hated about the comics is villains coming back over and over no matter how many lives they ruin. Just kill the bastich and be done with it!



Totally agree.


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## drothgery (May 8, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> After that episode though, I am even more disappointed than I was before that Sylar is coming back next season. Very unfortunate.




I'm still holding onto hope that the season finale's a clifhanger and he dies in the season 2 opener.

Really, I don't see the show lasting unless Peter and Sylar don't.


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## Taelorn76 (May 8, 2007)

drothgery said:
			
		

> I'm still holding onto hope that the season finale's a clifhanger and he dies in the season 2 opener.
> 
> Really, I don't see the show lasting unless Peter and Sylar don't.




Maybe the future seasons of the show will just be trying to change past. Using a few core heroes from this season and introducing new heroes, all in an attempt to prevent the bomb or Nathan/Sylar from becoming president.

It would fit in with what has been said about that they would introduce need heroes each season.


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## Fast Learner (May 8, 2007)

I'm hoping that the "Sylar is coming back" and "the actor is signed up for next season" are really good ruses on the part of the producers.


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## Randolpho (May 8, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Is he keeping it from them because he knows they wouldn't agree to killing a child, or does he not actually know that this "system" is in fact a child, one who Parkman has already helped once?




The wife and I discussed this, and decided that Bennett didn't know the "system" was a kid. He only knows "they just find you". Probably (assuming they actually get to that point) he'll balk when he realizes she's a super. Mutant. X. Whatevs.



			
				Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I wasn't sure that Sylar re-started time. I thought perhaps that Hiro lost control while he was trying to kill Sylar, possibly because killing a helpless person would violate the Bushido code.




We discussed that, too, and came pretty much to the same to the same conclusion. 



			
				drothgery said:
			
		

> Really, I don't see the show lasting unless Peter and Sylar don't.




I agree -- Peter and Sylar are the iconic hero and villain of the series. They really need to be part of the entire series. 



Finally, some thoughts on what's to come. I think Ando will still die, but he and Hiro will talk about it beforehand. Ando will talk about being heroic despite not having any powers, and will face his death bravely. He'll also tell Hiro how his death affected future Hiro and will beg him not to become like that. Then, after he receives his mortal wound, Hiro will tell Ando something along the lines of "You're my hero," to which Ando will reply "No, Hiro. You are mine," and then expire. 

Ok, maybe that won't actually happen, but it would be so very cool! 

Does the bomb actually go off? I think yes. I think it ends up not being any of the three possibilities (Peter, Sylar, or Ted), but is actually a forth, even more subversive possibility: an actual nuclear bomb smuggled in by Linderman at al.


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## Steel_Wind (May 8, 2007)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> The wife and I discussed this, and decided that Bennett didn't know the "system" was a kid. He only knows "they just find you". Probably (assuming they actually get to that point) he'll balk when he realizes she's a super. Mutant. X. Whatevs.




The new "Walker system" is only about 4-6 weeks old.  They've only had Molly in their clutches for that time since Parkman found her in LA and the OWI got her away from the FBI (on whatever pretense they used to do that.)

And no, I don't think Bennett has a clue that it's a girl.  They obviously are not going to off her. Even if Bennett was as cold as all that (he might be if it was "this kid dies or my Claire dies" - though I don't see the choice being put to him that starkly), Parkman isn't.  (Director Parkman from the future is - but that isn't present day Matt Parkman.)

My expectation is that they will rescue Molly and spirit her and probably Suresh out of there as well.  Bennett knows Suresh and if he spills enough of the truth to Mohinder - Mohinder will get out of there PDQ.


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## buzzard (May 8, 2007)

Personally I think I'm starting to feel strung along at this point. The last two episodes really haven't done a great deal for me, and unless the last two actually look better, I won't bother with next season. The plethora of stupid errors on people's parts is getting very tiresome. Sylar should dead so many times by now that it's getting to be a cliche. 

I'm of the opinion that the plot holes keep getting bigger as the show progresses. Maybe something will come a long to close them up, but I'm losing hope.


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## drothgery (May 8, 2007)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> I agree -- Peter and Sylar are the iconic hero and villain of the series. They really need to be part of the entire series.




Err... that's the exact opposite of what I meant. Peter and Sylar are uber-characters who really don't need anyone else except as sources to leech new powers from. If I were writing the show, this season would end with Peter sacrificing himself to take out Sylar.


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## Wycen (May 8, 2007)

I do think this was an attempt to give us a reason to sympathize with Sylar, but it is too late in the season, even if I felt it would ever have worked.  I just watched and said, "That wound doesn't look terminal, but hey moron, call an ambulance, or use one of your super powers, then maybe your mom wont die."


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 8, 2007)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Err... that's the exact opposite of what I meant. Peter and Sylar are uber-characters who really don't need anyone else except as sources to leech new powers from. If I were writing the show, this season would end with Peter sacrificing himself to take out Sylar.



 I have to agree with you.  I'm concerned if they remain on the show, it will just keep coming back to them.  

UH-OH It's Sylar!  Quick, call Peter Petrelli!  It will get pretty old after a couple of times.

And with Peter around, we don't need any other heroes except for him to meet them and absorb their power.


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## Randolpho (May 8, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I have to agree with you.  I'm concerned if they remain on the show, it will just keep coming back to them.
> 
> UH-OH It's Sylar!  Quick, call Peter Petrelli!  It will get pretty old after a couple of times.
> 
> And with Peter around, we don't need any other heroes except for him to meet them and absorb their power.




Yeah, I guess I can see the problems.

Maybe Peter's power needs to start having a negative effect on other people, causing him to withdraw from society. Maybe start wearing gloves.... shock of white in his hair......

Ok, I'm done.


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## Victim (May 8, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I have to agree with you.  I'm concerned if they remain on the show, it will just keep coming back to them.
> 
> UH-OH It's Sylar!  Quick, call Peter Petrelli!  It will get pretty old after a couple of times.
> 
> And with Peter around, we don't need any other heroes except for him to meet them and absorb their power.




Well, characters with lots of learned power tricks - like Ted's car starting and EMP coming off his irradiate/explodiate power - might be mostly resistant to effective copying.  Peter gets the gross power, but not any of the applications they've worked out.  He'd have incredible broadness of ability, but not that much depth.  

That being said, most characters don't seem to have that kind of power depth.  There's not much to learn with Regeneration or invisibility.  Matt's telepathy still seemed pretty weak even in the future.


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## drothgery (May 8, 2007)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> Yeah, I guess I can see the problems.
> 
> Maybe Peter's power needs to start having a negative effect on other people, causing him to withdraw from society. Maybe start wearing gloves.... shock of white in his hair......
> 
> Ok, I'm done.




If Peter's power worked like Rogue's (limitted duration power absorbtion, for the most part), then he wouldn't be such an uber-guy. He'd be able to take one bad guy out of a fight pretty reliably, but that's counterable just giving Team Evil more people.


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## Krug (May 8, 2007)

Hmmm felt mostly blah about this episode. It felt like stalling, with Sylar getting his motive for causing the killings as forced as the fight between him and his mom. 

I'll tune in for the last two, but I hope they don't try to hard to mash things together, or spend time killing all the 'hero' characters. 

PS: Ok Hiro no more of those happy shouts!


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## Vocenoctum (May 8, 2007)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Personally I think I'm starting to feel strung along at this point. The last two episodes really haven't done a great deal for me, and unless the last two actually look better, I won't bother with next season. The plethora of stupid errors on people's parts is getting very tiresome. Sylar should dead so many times by now that it's getting to be a cliche.





What I'm getting tired of is the reshooting of past scenes. It's happened a few times where the dialogue was slightly different than the scene they were recapping.

This last episode, during the recap, Thompson gives Suresh a card and blah blah blah, but I don't remember that scene ever happening. The recap scenes with Petrelli/Nathan and Claire/Nathan also seemed different.

Maybe someone is modifying time!


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## James Heard (May 8, 2007)

Happy shouts are teh awesome.

Despite Peter being iconic, I think that if they handled it correctly it would alright to off Peter now. We've done the flash-forward, and we all know that Peter is the only sure way of beating Sylar...If Peter dies heroically _now _though, then you can push the rest of the cast forward into real heroism by his example rather than having him around to fix things.

Alternately, a good plot twist would be to have Hiro sacrifice himself to save Ando, and eventually figure out a way for Ando to do the knocking off of Sylar. Then you could make an even more powerful message, with all these superheroic powerful figures around it would be Ando just trying to make something meaningful out of his friend's death that ultimately saved everyone. 

I think some of the heroes need to die soon though, and ideally it shouldn't be some minor characters that don't resonate with the fanbase. Kick everyone in the guts and have people turning off the tv going "Wow, I didn't see that coming."


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## Vocenoctum (May 9, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I don't think he restarted time. Hiro lost concentration. We know that for hiro (and peter) to stop time they have to concentrate. Hiro lost it becuse of his inability to kill a human being.
> 
> Powers do work on Sylar. He couldn't see peter when he was invisible and hiro was able to stop time and get away from him. In both instances if sylar was immune to powers he wouldn't have been stopped and would have seen through Peter's Invisibility.



I was thinking that it ended when he touched Sylar, or that Hiro lost will at that point. If Sylar was immune to the power, I don't think the rest of the room would have unfrozen, but maybe he'd lose concentration then.




> As for the knife, even the mom couldn't do that. Sylar used his telekinesis as a reflex to stab her in the heart.  It makes no sense for the mom to commit suicide.  Sylar seems to be loosing control, so this makes perfect sense that he would react with a power when threatened.



I chalked it up to melodrama and bad cameras/ setup. It was (to me) supposed to be an "end" to the "way out" for Sylar, and I don't think he killed her, or she killed herself.



> The main reason peter or sylar won't go back in time is because it would create paradoxes and conondrums.  The only reason future hiro would have risked that, was because nothing could have been worse than the future.  But look at what future hiro did before he did this. He spent probably months mapping out where exactly in the timeline he could do something and not screw it up.



We don't actually know if there is paradox in HeroesVerse, we don't know how time travel works much at all. Hiro's theories are all... well, they're all based on Star Trek and comic books!

We don't know if he learned anything later on.


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## Vocenoctum (May 9, 2007)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> Does the bomb actually go off? I think yes. I think it ends up not being any of the three possibilities (Peter, Sylar, or Ted), but is actually a forth, even more subversive possibility: an actual nuclear bomb smuggled in by Linderman at al.




I think Peter still explodes, but just before he does so, Hiro shouts "hey, can't you fly?" and Peter flies up and out of destructive range.

Thus, Hiro saves NY.


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## Rystil Arden (May 9, 2007)

Does anyone else think that Pa Petrelli was originally supposed to be the rallying president in Linderman's plans and that this is why he committed suicide?  It seems reasonable.


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## Rystil Arden (May 9, 2007)

Also, I guess it is obvious that Molly Walker is the "Walker System" that Bennett brought Parkman and Ted to NYC to destroy, the one that "they don't need isotopes, they just find you".  Of course, when that happens, Parkman will recognise her from his first telepathy case.


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## Brown Jenkin (May 9, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> What I'm getting tired of is the reshooting of past scenes. It's happened a few times where the dialogue was slightly different than the scene they were recapping.
> 
> This last episode, during the recap, Thompson gives Suresh a card and blah blah blah, but I don't remember that scene ever happening. The recap scenes with Petrelli/Nathan and Claire/Nathan also seemed different.
> 
> Maybe someone is modifying time!



I don't think they are reshooting scenes. More likely they are scavenging off the cutting room floor and pulling from alternate original takes (Most scenes are probably shot at least twice if not more to get all the camera angles for editing to choose from).


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## Kaodi (May 9, 2007)

Just thinking back to the future episode, with Peter using the power of fire... I wonder if he got that during the distant past, or during the future. Does Claire's Mom possibly make another appearance in the last two episodes?


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## Chaldfont (May 9, 2007)

How cool would it be if that star the girl gave to Suresh actually does work?


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## Taelorn76 (May 9, 2007)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> Just thinking back to the future episode, with Peter using the power of fire... I wonder if he got that during the distant past, or during the future. Does Claire's Mom possibly make another appearance in the last two episodes?




I think he was using Ted Nuke power not the firestarter


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## Arnwyn (May 9, 2007)

James Heard said:
			
		

> I think some of the heroes need to die soon though, and ideally it shouldn't be some minor characters that don't resonate with the fanbase. Kick everyone in the guts and have people turning off the tv going "Wow, I didn't see that coming."



I definitely understand this viewpoint, but they have to be very _very_ careful. It's certainly been documented that a material portion of the audience simply doesn't return when such story events occur.


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## James Heard (May 9, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> I definitely understand this viewpoint, but they have to be very _very_ careful. It's certainly been documented that a material portion of the audience simply doesn't return when such story events occur.



Perhaps, but it generates its own press and given that Heroes already has time travel you can almost kill characters off and still have them make guest appearances.

If Ando dies, Hiro could occasionally have scenes where he goes into the past to chat with Ando...eventually culminating in the knowledge that Ando could be made to be even more heroic retroactively, because it would be clear he knew ahead of time and made a decision.

If Peter dies, then the only "proper" way to have him recurrent IMO would be to take Nathan over the edge and have Peter show up as Nathan's conscience. Nathan's already deeply flawed, but if you twisted his flaws to give himself an argument to become the sort of person he obviously wishes he had the character to be?

If Hiro dies, then maybe paradox-future Hiro is still around. Not as heroic, more capable, afraid to use his powers to travel in time at all because the chain of history wants to pull him back into his proper place. This could be even more interesting because Nathan-now would still regard Hiro as the strange naive guy he connected with in the Diner, and that would put Nathan in a place to be the optimistic, friendly guy for once while someone else sulks and plots around him.

Or they could just suck it up and try to make it so awesome that anyone who was put off by the plot developing contrary to the liveliness of the characters made their way back because of the massive peer pressure from all the new viewers.


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## Pseudonym (May 9, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> I definitely understand this viewpoint, but they have to be very _very_ careful. It's certainly been documented that a material portion of the audience simply doesn't return when such story events occur.




I don't know.  Oz lasted for I think six seasons and it seems just when you came to know certain characters, they were killed off.  Granted many made it through most or all of the series, but there were several that snuffed it that I never thought would, and who had fairly major story arcs.

It could work, if written well.


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## Vocenoctum (May 10, 2007)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I don't think they are reshooting scenes. More likely they are scavenging off the cutting room floor and pulling from alternate original takes (Most scenes are probably shot at least twice if not more to get all the camera angles for editing to choose from).




Also a possibility, sure. It just seems odd to me that the dialogue is different. I've noticed it before (going from memory, I think the episode where Ted held Claire hostage, the recap changed dialogue from the previous ep, but could be off).


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## Arnwyn (May 10, 2007)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> It could work, if written well.



Absolutely, which was covered in my "be very careful" part.


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 10, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Also a possibility, sure. It just seems odd to me that the dialogue is different. I've noticed it before (going from memory, I think the episode where Ted held Claire hostage, the recap changed dialogue from the previous ep, but could be off).



 I think the dialogue changes because Hiro has been messing with the timelines trying to stop New York from being nuked.  What we are experiencing is the fragmentation of spacetime due to his jumps and time stoppages.  This is in fact more of a threat to the world than the nuke and the future rounding up of heroes.


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## WayneLigon (May 10, 2007)

James Heard said:
			
		

> I think some of the heroes need to die soon though, and ideally it shouldn't be some minor characters that don't resonate with the fanbase. Kick everyone in the guts and have people turning off the tv going "Wow, I didn't see that coming."




Like others have said, it's a really delicate balance because every character is someone's favorite. Kill off a major and popular character like Peter or Hiro and I might not be all that happy about tuning in next week. Instead of saying "Wow, I didn't see that coming," you'll get a lot of people who'll say "Well, time to try something else."

We already know that focus will shift to other heroes at some point in Season 2; not everyone who lives in this season will be back, or be back regularly. I think it's a good idea, as you get a feel over time for what characters (and actors) work well with each other or who find an audience. It gives them time to breathe and gives you time to try out other characters on the audience.


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## papastebu (May 10, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Like others have said, it's a really delicate balance because every character is someone's favorite. Kill off a major and popular character like Peter or Hiro and I might not be all that happy about tuning in next week. Instead of saying "Wow, I didn't see that coming," you'll get a lot of people who'll say "Well, time to try something else."
> 
> We already know that focus will shift to other heroes at some point in Season 2; not everyone who lives in this season will be back, or be back regularly. I think it's a good idea, as you get a feel over time for what characters (and actors) work well with each other or who find an audience. It gives them time to breathe and gives you time to try out other characters on the audience.



The wife and I used to watch NYPD Blue and ER almost every show. When Jimmy Schmidt left NYPD Blue, and Cloony's character left ER, we pretty much stopped watching completely. I don't know if I'd quit Heroes for similar reasons, because I want the storyline to continue, but I like the interplay between the characters right now, especially Nate, Pete, Hiro, Ando, and Claire. The others, to me, are peripheral, and I can see them dying to serve the storyline. But I can see these that I mention doing the same, as long as it works and I don't feel ripped off for my investment in them.


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## Fast Learner (May 10, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> The wife and I used to watch NYPD Blue and ER almost every show. When Jimmy Schmidt left NYPD Blue, and Cloony's character left ER, we pretty much stopped watching completely.



I understand, but that's a shame, imo. There were many, many really great NYPD Blue episodes after Smits left. The last couple of seasons (especially the very last) went downhill, but there were a lot of really great Rick Schroder eps, Esai Morales was really, really great, etc. The same with ER: the 3 seasons following Clooney leaving were still really great. 

In both cases it took a few episodes for the chemistry to adjust, but you missed some really great television going on that principle, imo.


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## papastebu (May 11, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I understand, but that's a shame, imo. There were many, many really great NYPD Blue episodes after Smits left. The last couple of seasons (especially the very last) went downhill, but there were a lot of really great Rick Schroder eps, Esai Morales was really, really great, etc. The same with ER: the 3 seasons following Clooney leaving were still really great.
> 
> In both cases it took a few episodes for the chemistry to adjust, but you missed some really great television going on that principle, imo.



Is that how you spell those guys' last names? Sorry. Hate to get stuff like that wrong.
But, we just lost interest in the show. I think that, like I said in my last post, it was too much of a shock to the investment that we'd made in the characters. Simone's death was completely pointless when compared with the show's themes, and it was a buyout or termination clause that had him hanging on afterward for a few shows. I saw a few of the Schroeder episodes, and thought they were OK, and the wife watched a bit longer than I did, but that was basically it, for us.
Clooney's leaving wasn't as big of an upset, because his character was kind of an ass, but he was still core to what was going on. What do you do with his girlfriend's story line, once he goes?
Anyway, if they don't handle the death(s) of one or all of the core characters of Heroes  well, that might push me away from the show. It's hard to say for sure, though, because the subject matter is so dear to my heart.


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 11, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Is that how you spell those guys' last names? Sorry. Hate to get stuff like that wrong.
> But, we just lost interest in the show. I think that, like I said in my last post, it was too much of a shock to the investment that we'd made in the characters. Simone's death was completely pointless when compared with the show's themes, and it was a buyout or termination clause that had him hanging on afterward for a few shows. I saw a few of the Schroeder episodes, and thought they were OK, and the wife watched a bit longer than I did, but that was basically it, for us.
> Clooney's leaving wasn't as big of an upset, because his character was kind of an ass, but he was still core to what was going on. What do you do with his girlfriend's story line, once he goes?
> Anyway, if they don't handle the death(s) of one or all of the core characters of Heroes  well, that might push me away from the show. It's hard to say for sure, though, because the subject matter is so dear to my heart.




Any significant cast changes are going to result in some people giving up on a show.  The trick is to keep it from killing it completely.  ER's ratings dipped a small amount in the year after Clooney left, but not much.  It began a slow but steady decline after that season, getting much worse after season 8 where both Eriq LaSalle and Anthony Edwards left.


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## Wolv0rine (May 13, 2007)

Well, if anyone's been reading Behind the Eclipse (The link should lead to the Week 21 interview), they've said more than a few times that there are going to be more character deaths, and that Season 2 is going to have a focus on the International.

For me, I thought last week's view of Sylar was pretty good.  People tend to break down and scramble for the hope of escape and salvation not after the first step toward damnation, but rather right before the last, irrevocable act.  He saw that he was only a step away from being hopelessly damned, and that was when he ran for hope.  I thought it was nicely pithy that he bluntly, blatantly came right out and ASKED his mother to tell him it was okay and that he could stop...  and she blindly refused.

As far as Peter and Sylar go, I really like the two of them as foils.  Peter can't be everywhere, and he's not immediately proficient with any power he absorbs (as the writers say more than once in the 'Behind the Eclipse' interviews, Peter absorbs the "raw material" of the power...  so the power level of the source, what they've learned to do with it, etc..  is irrelavant.  Peter gets the power in it's raw form, and has to do with it what HE can do with it).  So Peter being around really doesn't give you a situation where "We don't need anyone else except as sources of powers for Peter".  He's only one guy, and not the brightest guy at that.


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## papastebu (May 13, 2007)

This is my take, as well.
I wonder if Peter actually absorbs powers that aren't primary. Sylar ate the super-memory power awhile back, and Peter ran into him after that, so Peter should be showing that power as well. Neither of them have shown it, though, as near as I can tell. Maybe its effects haven't been relevant, or nothing came up that made them apparent?
Maybe Peter only gets powers that someone uses near him. Sylar never used the cold powers, so Pete didn't get them. Never used the super-memory, so Pete never got that, either.
The precog dreams, the astral travel, drawing the future, TK, invisibility, all of them that he's displayed, I think, have been in use nearby at some time. The ones he's not come up with have not been in use around him.


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## James Heard (May 13, 2007)

> As far as Peter and Sylar go, I really like the two of them as foils.



Which is sort of why I think Peter should die. They're _too good_ as easy foils for each other, and if the writers got even a little bit lazy (as series television always seems to do eventually) then you might be tempted to turn it from being "Heroes" to "Pete Takes On Eeeeeevil Sylar"


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## Vocenoctum (May 13, 2007)

James Heard said:
			
		

> Which is sort of why I think Peter should die. They're _too good_ as easy foils for each other, and if the writers got even a little bit lazy (as series television always seems to do eventually) then you might be tempted to turn it from being "Heroes" to "Pete Takes On Eeeeeevil Sylar"




Or, as it seems to be sometimes this season "Peter almost just barely goes face to face with Sylar, but not quite, but maybe next week!"

They build to teh cliffhanger a bit too much for my tastes, so the drama has gone over into Melodrama a bit, they should focus more on the story and develop a more even pacing I think.


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## Fast Learner (May 13, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Maybe Peter only gets powers that someone uses near him. Sylar never used the cold powers, so Pete didn't get them. Never used the super-memory, so Pete never got that, either.



That wouldn't explain how he got Ted's power all of a sudden, though.

I'm with the group that says neither Sylar nor Peter have Charlie's memory powers because neither met her, she died of the brain tumor as a result of Hiro's tampering.


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## Vocenoctum (May 13, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> That wouldn't explain how he got Ted's power all of a sudden, though.
> 
> I'm with the group that says neither Sylar nor Peter have Charlie's memory powers because neither met her, she died of the brain tumor as a result of Hiro's tampering.





The comic says Sylar has them, AFAIK that is an official source, but who knows.

Charlie  said she was inches away from an aneurism, and that's why she never let anyone close, so I don't understand how that has anything to do with Hiro or his time travel.

In addition, when Peter meets Ando, Ando says she was killed. This is after the photo of Hiro at her BDay Party appeared, which means it was after the time jump. Sylar killed Charlie.


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## Taelorn76 (May 13, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> The comic says Sylar has them, AFAIK that is an official source, but who knows.
> 
> Charlie  said she was inches away from an aneurism, and that's why she never let anyone close, so I don't understand how that has anything to do with Hiro or his time travel.
> 
> In addition, when Peter meets Ando, Ando says she was killed. This is after the photo of Hiro at her BDay Party appeared, which means it was after the time jump. Sylar killed Charlie.





I think Peter could have  several powers even he is not aware of. 

Example, say Peter ran into Claire under different circumstances, no fighting involved. He would not have noticed he could heal himself until he cut himself shaving. 

I think that if the power is passive and he is unaware the person has a power he doesn't know he has it. Another example was Claude, Peter didn't know he was invisible until Claude pointed it out.


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## Vocenoctum (May 13, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I think Peter could have  several powers even he is not aware of.



Sure, I never commented on what powers Peter has, since I never really gave it thought. I just assume it as a plot device.



> Example, say Peter ran into Claire under different circumstances, no fighting involved. He would not have noticed he could heal himself until he cut himself shaving.




He could have Charlies memory, but just be some shlub that never reads anything.


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## SteelDraco (May 13, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I think Peter could have  several powers even he is not aware of.
> 
> Example, say Peter ran into Claire under different circumstances, no fighting involved. He would not have noticed he could heal himself until he cut himself shaving.
> 
> I think that if the power is passive and he is unaware the person has a power he doesn't know he has it. Another example was Claude, Peter didn't know he was invisible until Claude pointed it out.



The impression I got was that if the other person was around, Peter automatically started using the power, even without being aware of it. That's why he went invisible when Claude showed up, and why he's about to explode now that he's met Ted.

If the other person isn't around, though, he has to activate the power by thinking about them. That's what he claimed when he and Claude were figuring things out, anyway. There are a few powers he doesn't seem to do this with, though - regeneration and dream-precognition being the two biggest examples I can think of. I do wonder, though - if Claire hadn't been nearby when that shard of glass got pulled out of his head, would he still have regenerated?

It's entirely possible he has powers he doesn't know about, simply from walking past people and then never thinking about them again. After all, he doesn't have any reason to try for powers he doesn't know he has.

I'm wondering what happens when he's thinking about his mother and father, though. I expect at some point he's going to figure out one or both of them have powers, and start to wonder what they were.


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## Steel_Wind (May 13, 2007)

At one of the media expos the writers of Heroes (and Tim Kring) appeared at back in late Feb/Early March, the writers confirmed that Peter "absolutely" absorbs all of Sylar's powers when he encounters him.

Being able to consciously access those powers is, of course, another matter.


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## Vocenoctum (May 13, 2007)

SteelDraco said:
			
		

> It's entirely possible he has powers he doesn't know about, simply from walking past people and then never thinking about them again. After all, he doesn't have any reason to try for powers he doesn't know he has.




I thought of that when reading the comic, he met Nikki during a jailbreak of Supers...

How many powers would that give him? 



> I'm wondering what happens when he's thinking about his mother and father, though. I expect at some point he's going to figure out one or both of them have powers, and start to wonder what they were.




Interesting idea. His parents, one or the other, could have a power that simply hasn't shown. Lindermans healing for instance. The comic where Petrelli Sr met Linderman didn't say anything about powers for Petrelli Sr, but perhaps Ms Petrelli...

I wonder if they'll ever come up with some catalyst for why the powers are developing.


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## Fast Learner (May 14, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Charlie  said she was inches away from an aneurism, and that's why she never let anyone close, so I don't understand how that has anything to do with Hiro or his time travel.
> 
> In addition, when Peter meets Ando, Ando says she was killed. This is after the photo of Hiro at her BDay Party appeared, which means it was after the time jump. Sylar killed Charlie.



It's weird, when I saw the episode, I got the distinct impression that Charlie still died, she just died differently. I went back and watched it today, though, and no, it's pretty clear that Sylar still killed her.

There was talk of the alternate death here on the boards back then, too, and it seemed to make sense then. Weird.


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