# Who do you consider an Anti-Hero in fiction?



## sckeener (Sep 19, 2006)

Inspired by What is a "Hero" in your campaign?, 

who do you consider to be an Anti-Hero?

My list would be

Elric (all the eternal champions) by Michael Moorcock (see Stormbringer RPG)
Many of the characters in the Black Company Series by Glen Cook (see Green Ronin)
Ditto for the Thieves World series (see Green Ronion)
Riddick (Pitch Black and Chronicles)
Karr Avon from Blake's Seven
Corwin from Chronicles of Amber (see Amber the diceless RPG)
The Hunter, Gerald Tarrant, Neocount of Merentha, the former Prophet of Damien's Church from Black Sun Rising by C.S. Friedman
Gaius Baltar from BattleStar Galactica on SciFi Channel (admittedly I'll take this view on an episode by episode basis   )
Edmund Blackadder
Valmont from Les Liaisons dangereuses (2, 3)
Kevin from Devil's Advocate
Scorpius from Farscape
Lestat from Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles
Moll Flanders by Daniel Defoe and I recommend the PBS version
Dean Corso in Ninth Gate (what a dark achrivist...)
Elphaba from Wicked by Gregory Maguire
Salome in Salome's Last Dance


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## Fishbone (Sep 19, 2006)

Spawn
Jules Winfield


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## Xer0 (Sep 19, 2006)

Hari Michaelson, from Matthew Woodring Stover's Heroes Die and Blade of Tyshalle.


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## Richards (Sep 19, 2006)

Cugel the Clever from Jack Vance's books _Eyes of the Overworld_ and _Cugel's Saga_.

Johnathan


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## rvalle (Sep 19, 2006)

Thomas Covenant in "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever"

rv


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## MarkB (Sep 19, 2006)

sckeener said:
			
		

> Scorpius from Farscape



Bialar Crais from Farscape would qualify, but I don't think Scorpius ever quite makes it past "villain with some complexities". Though admittedly, that's close to the definition of "anti-hero".

For me:

Avon from Blake's Seven
Captain Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Caribbean
Ichijouji Ken from Digimon


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## cutup (Sep 19, 2006)

Ay Matey! Here be some Antiheroes (mostly movies, shows and comic books):
Rorscharch from the Watchmen
Han Solo from that one space movie
Yojimbo from Yojimbo/Sanjuro (though this could easily be argued either way)
Hamlet
Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven
The Limey in The Limey (but that movies just a big bunch of moral ambiguity)
Al Swearengen from Deadwood(it could be argued he's just a villain with complexity, but in later seasons..)
Practically every character on Lost (though Sayid, Mr. Ekko, Sawyer, Anna Lucia, Michael, and John Locke particularly fit the bill)
Scarface
John Wayne in the Searchers
Casey Jones from TMNT


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 19, 2006)

Slippery Jim DiGriz
Harry Flashman
Doc Holliday in most movies

I disagree about the characters from Lost. Most of them are heroes overcoming trials in their past. They behave in a heroic manner now and do so for the right reasons. Sawyer is an antihero, though, and Locke ... well, it's probably too soon to tell what Locke is, but I'm betting he turns out to be a major villain before the final season.


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## JEL (Sep 19, 2006)

Donquixote or Willy Loman.  Most of the ones people mention above I'd classify as heroes.


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## Michael Dean (Sep 19, 2006)

Harry Flashman from George McDonald Fraser's series is the ultimate anti-hero, imho.


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## Lancelot (Sep 19, 2006)

Arrr! That blighter Artemis Entreri from the dark elf books, sneaky ninja-type though he be.

...but I'll be also double-votin' for Thomas Covenant as well. When someone be askin' me who I think of when I think "anti-hero", he's at the top o' me list.

At least that Elric lad is a sea-farin' man. He ain't the anti-hero - his blasted sword is the anti-hero.


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## Cedric (Sep 20, 2006)

Vlad Taltos from the Steven Brust Dragaera novels (Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla, etc). If you haven't read AT least the first two (Jhereg & Yendi) you should.


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## taliesin15 (Sep 20, 2006)

Ahoy there, ye smarmy ships of Gomorrah! Don't fergit the right fink bastard of all the trago-historical plays of Willie the Shake. That's right, landlubbers, Richard the Third (or Turd, as ye may have it). This bloody Dog's Bollocks of all villains even inspired the greatest villain of Rock and Roll, Johnny Rotten (c.v. "The Filth and the Fury"). 

Avaunt ye pampered jades of Asia!


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 20, 2006)

Jack Shaftoe from the _Baroque Cycle_ by Neal Stephenson.


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## Piratecat (Sep 20, 2006)

Michael Dean said:
			
		

> Harry Flashman from George McDonald Fraser's series is the ultimate anti-hero, imho.



No question about it. And Thomas Blood, from the same author's book _The Pyrates._


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## IamTheTest (Sep 20, 2006)

Some may disagree, but I think Batman is an antihero.
Mickey Rourke from Sin City.


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## SkidAce (Sep 20, 2006)

rvalle said:
			
		

> Thomas Covenant in "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever"
> 
> rv




seconded.   

oh....Yarrr!


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## Doug McCrae (Sep 20, 2006)

JEL said:
			
		

> Donquixote or Willy Loman.  Most of the ones people mention above I'd classify as heroes.



I've noticed that, at least on the internet, the term 'anti-hero' has developed a new meaning from its original lit crit sense of 'the man who is given the vocation of failure'. The new meaning is a fictional protagonist who is in some way dark. As should be clear from the list above this means everyone except Sir Galahad, Silver Age Superman and Dudley Do-Right.


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## Agamon (Sep 20, 2006)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> I've noticed that, at least on the internet, the term 'anti-hero' has developed a new meaning from its original lit crit sense of 'the man who is given the vocation of failure'. The new meaning is a fictional protagonist who is in some way dark. As should be clear from the list above this means everyone except Sir Galahad, Silver Age Superman and Dudley Do-Right.




QFT.  Another English word mutilated by pop culture.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 20, 2006)

According to Wikipedia, the dictionary definition has changed as well, so it's not an Internetism. (In fact, the changes predate the existence of the World Wide Web.)


			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> In literature and film, an anti-hero has widely come to mean a fictional character who has some characteristics that are antithetical to those of the traditional hero. An anti-hero in today's books and films will perform acts generally deemed "heroic," but will do so with methods, manners, or intentions that may not be heroic. The actual use of the word, however, is fairly recent, and its primary meaning has somewhat changed. As recently as 1940, the 600,000-word Merriam-Webster New International Dictionary, Second Edition, listed it but without a definition. By 1992 the American Heritage Dictionary of the American Language defined an anti-hero only as "a main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage," not as a person who nevertheless performs heroic acts. Even the more recent Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition, of 2004, says: "(1714): a protagonist or notable figure who is conspicuously lacking in heroic qualities." The original meaning, therefore, is that of a protagonist who is ineffectual and hapless, rather than resolute and determined, whether his motives are good or bad. In some instances, anti-hero has come to refer to a protagonist of a work whose actions and motives are villainous or questionable.
> 
> Thus, anti-heroes can be awkward, antisocial, alienated, cruel, obnoxious, passive, pitiful, obtuse, or just ordinary. When the anti-hero is a central character in a work of fiction the work will frequently deal with the effect their flawed character has on them and those they meet along the narrative. In other words, an anti-hero is a protagonist that lives by the guidance of their own moral compass, striving to define and construe their own values as opposed to those recognized by the society in which they live. Additionally, the work may depict how their character alters over time, either leading to punishment, un-heroic success, or redemption.



The usual Wikipedia caveats apply.

Interestingly, Harry Flashman is an antihero under all the definitions, past and present.


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## Anson Caralya (Sep 20, 2006)

sckeener said:
			
		

> Elric (all the eternal champions) by Michael Moorcock




Elric is by far the most interesting fantasy anti-hero I've encountered.  However, I'm not sure about the other aspects of the eternal champion as anti-heroes.  Corum and Hawkmoon were quite traditional do-gooders IIRC.  Erekose did some horrible stuff in a rage towards the beginning of his tales but then spent himself atoning.  Not sure if Moorcock has changed the slants with recent novels as I haven't followed his latest stuff.  

Oh, and the Von Bek in "The War Hound and the World's Pain."  That was a good one.

And has anyone mentioned Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser?  Gotta have them!


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## Aus_Snow (Sep 20, 2006)

Arr.

Oh, and Waylander. And Decado. Matter of fact, there are a few of these types in Gemmell's books.

Arr?


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## Thurbane (Sep 20, 2006)

For me, the quintessential anti-hero is Angus Thermopyle from The Gap series...

Cugel from the Dying Earth books is my second pick...


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## Azgulor (Sep 20, 2006)

Thurbane said:
			
		

> For me, the quintessential anti-hero is Angus Thermopyle from The Gap series...
> 
> Cugel from the Dying Earth books is my second pick...




Blast ye, ye scallywag!  No more grog for you, it's addled yer wits.  Angus Thermopyle was nuthin' but a black-hearted murderin', rapin' bastard of a villain if'n ever there was one.  Arrgh!

I can see where you might be thinkin' ole Black Angus might not be a villain thru-n-thru, but ye'd be settin' the bar pretty low for t'other anti-heroes.   

Azgulor


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## cmrscorpio (Sep 20, 2006)

Although he eventually becomes a true hero in the later books, Roland Deschain is definately an antihero in the first couple Dark Tower books by Stephen King.  He is completely self centered, a bully, engages in kidnapping, and has no compunctions about killing innocent men, women and children.


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## BadMojo (Sep 20, 2006)

IamTheTest said:
			
		

> Mickey Rourke from Sin City.




Yeah, Marv is definitely an anti-hero.  He seems to have his own twisted moral code and the whole thing with Goldie shows the "softer side of Marv".  On the other hand, he's an insane, murdering, torturing, thieving thug...

I think the only character in Sin City close to being a traditional hero would be Hartigan.

I'd also submit Tyrion Lannister from George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" books.


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## Kae'Yoss (Sep 20, 2006)

Every second character from Firefly. Especially Mal.


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## Dioltach (Sep 20, 2006)

The main character in K.J. Parker's _Scavenger_ trilogy -- ironically, I can't remember his name.

As for Harry Flashman, I wouldn't call him an anti-hero. More like a snivelling, cowardly, self-serving, bullying bastard who just happens to be running for his life while honourable people are doing the decent thing. The only way you can have "Harry Flashman" and "hero", in any form, in one sentence is if they're connected by the words "does not belong in any sentence containing". (Yep, I'm a fanboy.)


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## Michael Dean (Sep 20, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Interestingly, Harry Flashman is an antihero under all the definitions, past and present.




Ha, ha!  As I was reading the history of the definition, I kept thinking, "Yep, that's good ole' Flashy" with each new version of the word.  And I think the poltroon would agree with every word, rest his soul!


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## Deuce Traveler (Sep 20, 2006)

In some darker writings, Conan can be made into an anti-hero.  Riddick.


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## Piratecat (Sep 20, 2006)

Michael Dean said:
			
		

> Ha, ha!  As I was reading the history of the definition, I kept thinking, "Yep, that's good ole' Flashy" with each new version of the word.  And I think the poltroon would agree with every word, rest his soul!



Fraser is in his mid-80s. If he doesn't finish the book about Flashy and the Civil War, I'm going to be crying.


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## Michael Dean (Sep 20, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Fraser is in his mid-80s. If he doesn't finish the book about Flashy and the Civil War, I'm going to be crying.




You know, I was really excited a few years ago when _Flashman and the Tiger_ came out, because it had been so long since he had written one.  And then I was giddy when _Flashman at the Charge_ came out last year.  But I'm getting a little nervous about ever seeing his Civil War adventures.  I'm beginning to wonder if Fraser ever intended to actually write the book about them. Didn't Flash also state in one of the books that he was at Ford Theatre when Lincoln was assassinated? 

If I have to go to the hospital and personally keep the ventilator pumping while I tape record George's final outline and notes for this book, so help me God that is what's gonna happen.


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## Umbran (Sep 20, 2006)

Agamon said:
			
		

> QFT.  Another English word mutilated by pop culture.




Sorry, but I have to go with Wizbang on this one - in my college literature classes in the early 1990s, I was taught the new definition, not the old.  And given that this is before the popularity of the internet, pop culture seems like a poor suspect.

I'd argue that most of the main characters on _Firefly_ are heroes who like to pretend to be otherwise.  Jayne beig the notable exception, of course


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## Cor Azer (Sep 20, 2006)

BadMojo said:
			
		

> I'd also submit Tyrion Lannister from George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" books.




I'd likely nominate a good number of the characters from "A Song of Ice and Fire", although Tyrion less so. Littlefinger and Bronn most of all (depending on your definition of anti-hero), Ser Jorah Mormont even. Tyrion had frequent bouts of chivalry, but couldn't keep his sarcastic comments to himself. I wouldn't call that anti-heroic.


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## IamTheTest (Sep 20, 2006)

Ill vote for the crew of Serenity.  Maybe not Wash so much, but the rest seem pretty shady at times.


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## Dioltach (Sep 20, 2006)

Michael Dean said:
			
		

> And then I was giddy when _Flashman at the Charge_ came out last year.  But I'm getting a little nervous about ever seeing his Civil War adventures.  I'm beginning to wonder if Fraser ever intended to actually write the book about them.




I just want to set you straight here, because of the remote possibility that I might actually be doing you a great favour: _Flashman at the Charge_ is quite old, the fourth in the series to be written, if I'm not mistaken. The latest instalment was _Flashman on the March_.

My theory -- my hope, actually -- is that GMF has been writing the Civil War papers for some time now, but wrote _March_ in between as a spontaneous response to and criticism of certain real-world developments which I won't discuss here.


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## sckeener (Sep 20, 2006)

Anson Caralya said:
			
		

> Elric is by far the most interesting fantasy anti-hero I've encountered.  However, I'm not sure about the other aspects of the eternal champion as anti-heroes.  Corum and Hawkmoon were quite traditional do-gooders IIRC.  Erekose did some horrible stuff in a rage towards the beginning of his tales but then spent himself atoning.




Hawkmoon, I'll give.  He was a decent do-gooder.  

Corum had some rough edges though.




			
				Anson Caralya said:
			
		

> And has anyone mentioned Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser?  Gotta have them!




Agreed!



			
				MarkB said:
			
		

> Bialar Crais from Farscape would qualify, but I don't think Scorpius ever quite makes it past "villain with some complexities". Though admittedly, that's close to the definition of "anti-hero".




I think you said it....he was a villain with some complexities that helpped several times...I think that makes him an anti-hero.  




			
				MarkB said:
			
		

> Captain Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Caribbean




argh...how could I forget Captain Jack Sparrow on talk like a pirate day!  Definitely a must


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## Michael Dean (Sep 20, 2006)

Dioltach said:
			
		

> I just want to set you straight here, because of the remote possibility that I might actually be doing you a great favour: _Flashman at the Charge_ is quite old, the fourth in the series to be written, if I'm not mistaken. The latest instalment was _Flashman on the March_.
> 
> My theory -- my hope, actually -- is that GMF has been writing the Civil War papers for some time now, but wrote _March_ in between as a spontaneous response to and criticism of certain real-world developments which I won't discuss here.





Wow! The alzheimer's must be really kicking in today.  The funny thing is, I was mentally thinking of "On the March" but typed in "at the Charge".  Must be that I was subliminally voicing my opinion of my favorite Flashman book.

I've always thought that GMF must have at least some pretty extensive notes on what he wanted for a Civil War edition, because he's made quite a few references to events in other books.  I don't know if you ever read the Travis McGee books by John D. McDonald, but all of his titles (there were about 20) have a color in the title (e.g. "the Long Blue Goodbye," or "The Girl in the Plain Brown Wrapper").  Glen Cook later paid homage to Travis McGee with his Garret, P.I. books, btw.  But there was always a rumour that McDonald had written the "Black" book for Travis McGee, in which he is killed off. It never materialized after McDonald died. Hopefully, the Civil War papers is not Fraser's "Black" book, and merely a rumour.

And speaking of that, I wonder if Fraser ever thought about a short story about Flashy's end; I know he lived to be in his 90's, and I think it would be a great story.


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## Dioltach (Sep 20, 2006)

Michael Dean said:
			
		

> And speaking of that, I wonder if Fraser ever thought about a short story about Flashy's end; I know he lived to be in his 90's, and I think it would be a great story.




You've read _Mr American_, I take it?


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## Aaron L (Sep 20, 2006)

IamTheTest said:
			
		

> Some may disagree, but I think Batman is an antihero.
> Mickey Rourke from Sin City.





Why do you think that?  He doesnt have any qualities that arent heroic.  He devotes himself to protecting the weak.  He refuses to kill.  He catches criminals.  

Perhaps the vengeance obsessed version that certain movies have portrayed him as could be considered an anti-hero, but the actual comic book character is purely heroic man who has carefully crafted a fearsome identity to use to his advantage, and not a crazed lunatic out for revenge.  


Now the Punisher, thats an anti-hero.  If that, even.     

And John Constantine.


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## Michael Dean (Sep 20, 2006)

Dioltach said:
			
		

> You've read _Mr American_, I take it?




No, I haven't.  I've only ever seen it in a bookstore many years ago and unfortunately I didn't buy it at the time. Why? Does it tell how Flashman dies? If so, I must have it.


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## malladin (Sep 20, 2006)

Karl Edward Wagner's Kane the Mystic Swordsman.  Nice to see a few shouts for Avon and Cugel   

Nigel


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## Piratecat (Sep 20, 2006)

Michael Dean said:
			
		

> I've always thought that GMF must have at least some pretty extensive notes on what he wanted for a Civil War edition, because he's made quite a few references to events in other books.  I don't know if you ever read the Travis McGee books by John D. McDonald...



I finished rereading _Dress Her In Indigo_ (for about the sixth time) just last night.  If you tell me you like Donald E. Westlake's Dortmunder series, we officially have the same taste in literature. And yes, I believe GMF has the Civil War books roughed out, but that's a long way from published writing. Hell, I have my story hour updates roughed out.  

Back on topic, it's interesting to ask whether House on House M.D. is an antihero or not. He's certainly flawed and disagreeable.


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## diaglo (Sep 20, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Back on topic, it's interesting to ask whether House on House M.D. is an antihero or not. He's certainly flawed and disagreeable.





he is much more agreeable and better looking in a dress.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 20, 2006)

malladin said:
			
		

> Karl Edward Wagner's Kane the Mystic Swordsman.  Nice to see a few shouts for Avon and Cugel
> 
> Nigel




But he's not really an anti-hero.

He's never out to help other people but indeed, is a straight villain with world conquest on his mind in almost all his apperances where he's doing more than surviving no? Heck, in Bloodstone he gets pretty close. Ditto for Dark Crusade.

Just because he's the main character does not make him a 'hero' of any sort.


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## sckeener (Sep 20, 2006)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Why do you think that?  He doesnt have any qualities that arent heroic.  He devotes himself to protecting the weak.  He refuses to kill.  He catches criminals.



Now in the early part of the comics he didn't have any remorse for killing or hurting criminals, so it also depends on what era of comics you view Batman from. see the wiki



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> Perhaps the vengeance obsessed version that certain movies have portrayed him as could be considered an anti-hero, but the actual comic book character is purely heroic man who has carefully crafted a fearsome identity to use to his advantage, and not a crazed lunatic out for revenge.




I think I can sum up why I'd view Batman as an anti-hero.  He _is _Batman and pretends to be Bruce Wayne.  Bruce Wayne isn't who he is.   He doesn't have normal human concerns.  He doesn't want a normal life.  He wants to catch the criminal.  

For me he is like the prestige class in Heroes of Horror, the Corrupt Avenger (pg 88.)


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 20, 2006)

sckeener said:
			
		

> I think I can sum up why I'd view Batman as an anti-hero.  He _is _Batman and pretends to be Bruce Wayne.  Bruce Wayne isn't who he is.   He doesn't have normal human concerns.  He doesn't want a normal life.  He wants to catch the criminal.
> 
> For me he is like the prestige class in Heroes of Horror, the Corrupt Avenger (pg 88.)



Oh, I think Batman is Bruce Wayne. I just think Bruce Wayne is a fragment of a personality walking around decades after having a psychotic break when he watched his parents murdered in front of his eyes. Everything he does is an attempt to punish the man who took his parents away, which he can never do.

He's constructed a "Bruce Wayne" mask, but underneath it, the thing people call Batman is all that really exists of Bruce.

Of course, I also think that a non-franchise Batman character would have eaten the gun used to kill his parents years ago, so feel free to ignore my ramblings.  :\


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## JEL (Sep 20, 2006)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> I've noticed that, at least on the internet, the term 'anti-hero' has developed a new meaning from its original lit crit sense of 'the man who is given the vocation of failure'. The new meaning is a fictional protagonist who is in some way dark. As should be clear from the list above this means everyone except Sir Galahad, Silver Age Superman and Dudley Do-Right.




I think it's because the term "hero" itself has changed.  It went from being a competant protagonist to being a morally good person.  Guys like Gilgamesh or Heracles fit the former, but not the latter (at least by modern standards).


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## Iku Rex (Sep 20, 2006)

Titus Pullo, from HBO's Rome series.


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## MarkB (Sep 21, 2006)

Ooh, talking of HBO: Al Swearengen from Deadwood. An anti-hero in the traditional sense, and bordering upon it in the modern sense too.

EDIT: Nevermind, *cut up* beat me to it on that one by some time.


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## Seonaid (Sep 21, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Back on topic, it's interesting to ask whether House on House M.D. is an antihero or not.



Based on the wikipedia definition, I'd say he is!


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## Jeff Wilder (Sep 21, 2006)

Vic Mackey from _The Shield_.  Jack Bauer from _24_.

I disagree about the crew of _Serenity_.  Mal and the others complain bitterly and drag their heels and _aim_ to misbehave, but they always, always, always do the right thing.  Voluntarily.  Eventually.  They're _outlaw heroes_, not anti-heroes.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 21, 2006)

Jeff Wilder said:
			
		

> Vic Mackey from _The Shield_.  Jack Bauer from _24_.
> 
> I disagree about the crew of _Serenity_.  Mal and the others complain bitterly and drag their heels and _aim_ to misbehave, but they always, always, always do the right thing.  Voluntarily.  Eventually.  They're _outlaw heroes_, not anti-heroes.



I wholeheartedly agree.

Vic Mackey is probably the greatest antihero in television today. He does things because he wants to. Sometimes it's to protect others, other times, it's to fund his eventual retirement. He's committed murder, intimidated witnesses, planted drugs, destroyed evidence and more. He's a violent thug and arguably a sociopath.

Despite that, we find ourselves rooting for me, just as we do with Tony Soprano.

Both great, great characters.


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## Thurbane (Sep 21, 2006)

Azgulor said:
			
		

> Blast ye, ye scallywag!  No more grog for you, it's addled yer wits.  Angus Thermopyle was nuthin' but a black-hearted murderin', rapin' bastard of a villain if'n ever there was one.  Arrgh!
> 
> I can see where you might be thinkin' ole Black Angus might not be a villain thru-n-thru, but ye'd be settin' the bar pretty low for t'other anti-heroes.
> 
> Azgulor



It all depends on your defninition of anti-hero, though.

Nick Succorso (sp?) would also qualify.

Both ruthless self-serving men who only perform good deeds when it suits them, or when forced to.

I agree that Angus is stretching the limit of being any sort of hero, anti or otherwise, but he does perform deeds which can be considered heroic, although not of his own volition.

If a villain is the main protagonist and focal point of a story, does that make him an anti-hero...?


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## Michael Dean (Sep 21, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I finished rereading _Dress Her In Indigo_ (for about the sixth time) just last night.  If you tell me you like Donald E. Westlake's Dortmunder series, we officially have the same taste in literature.




No, but based on the fact that you like John D. McDonald and the fact that Westlake wrote the book for "Payback", one of my favorite Mel Gibson movies, I am going to check it out.

Also back on topic, Mel Gibson's Porter from "Payback" fits the anti-hero mold I think.  The movie's tagline was "get ready to root for the bad guy."


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## xmanii (Sep 21, 2006)

The Punisher.


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## jinx crossbow (Sep 21, 2006)

my favored Anti-Hero is
James Cole (Bruce Willis) in Twelfe Monkeys
He does anything right, but in the end he dies.

Jinx Crossbow


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## Cor Azer (Sep 21, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Back on topic, it's interesting to ask whether House on House M.D. is an antihero or not. He's certainly flawed and disagreeable.




I'd say so - he does the heroic (save lives) in an unheroic (and often inethical) fashion, for unheroic reasons (curiosity/can he do it? rather than altruism).


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## mhensley (Sep 21, 2006)

Thraxas from the Thraxas novels by Martin Scott is a pretty good anti-hero.  He's fat, overeats, smokes weed, drinks far too much, and has a gambling problem.  He also quite often breaks the law to solve whatever case he is working on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraxas


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## Aaron L (Sep 21, 2006)

sckeener said:
			
		

> I think I can sum up why I'd view Batman as an anti-hero.  He _is _Batman and pretends to be Bruce Wayne.  Bruce Wayne isn't who he is.   He doesn't have normal human concerns.  He doesn't want a normal life.  He wants to catch the criminal.
> 
> For me he is like the prestige class in Heroes of Horror, the Corrupt Avenger (pg 88.)




How does that, in any way, make him an anti-hero?  He's less herioc because his only concern is catching bad guys and making sure no other little boy has to lose thier parents?


Your logic escapes me, here.  



But I'll completely agree, in his very first appearances he was a complete gun carrying vigilante.  But that went the way of the dinosaur a long time ago, and for the last 60 years a central aspect of his character has been that he will not kill, and _especially_ will not use a gun.


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## Piratecat (Sep 21, 2006)

Michael Dean said:
			
		

> No, but based on the fact that you like John D. McDonald and the fact that Westlake wrote the book for "Payback", one of my favorite Mel Gibson movies, I am going to check it out.



Get "The Hot Rock" or "What's the Worst that Can Happen" (AVOID the movie!). Both books are hilarious, and some of the best examples of capers out there.


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## Valesin (Sep 21, 2006)

First I want to add my votes for:
Vic Makey (The Shield)
Angus Thermopyle (Gap into Ruin)
Thomas Covenent (Chronicles of same)

And add one I haven't seen yet:
Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer


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## BadMojo (Sep 21, 2006)

Cor Azer said:
			
		

> I'd likely nominate a good number of the characters from "A Song of Ice and Fire", although Tyrion less so. Littlefinger and Bronn most of all (depending on your definition of anti-hero), Ser Jorah Mormont even. Tyrion had frequent bouts of chivalry, but couldn't keep his sarcastic comments to himself. I wouldn't call that anti-heroic.




I don't know...I'd consider fratricide to be the stuff of anti-heroism.  I'd also say that Littlefinger and Bronn have virtually no redeeming qualities; Bronn is a killer for hire and, as I recall, never demonstrated any heroic tendencies, and certainly nothing resembling honor or loyalty.

I think Tyrion fits both definitions of anti-hero...he certainly isn't on the fast track to success in his family.


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## mhensley (Sep 21, 2006)

BadMojo said:
			
		

> I think Tyrion fits both definitions of anti-hero...he certainly isn't on the fast track to success in his family.




Plus Tyrion is an ugly, scarred, deformed midget who finds pleasure with prositutes and revenge.  A Lannister always pays his depts.    

Not exactly what you look for in a hero.  But that's what makes him such a great character.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 21, 2006)

Charlie Brown


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## tadk (Sep 21, 2006)

my fave anti-hero in the dark sense is Kane fm Karl Edward Wagner's novels. 
BEfore I found him it was Elric
You could also add in Tempus fm the Thieves World Novels
Stephen Erikson has several in the dark powerful definition in his Malazan novels


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## Moon-Lancer (Sep 21, 2006)

I am going to second batman. The comic book batman. Thier are many diffrent versions of him and some are just as crazy and jacked up as the joker. I alwayse felt batman was a cunundrum. 

He breaks the law to enforce it. This puts him in a polar netural of somesort.


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## Thurbane (Sep 22, 2006)

How about Judge Dredd (the comic character, not that awful Stallone movie)?

He enforces pseudo-fascist laws without a so much as a twinge of conscience and isn't afraid to gratuitously beat perps with little provocation...


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## Canaan (Sep 22, 2006)

Thomas Covenant tops my list of all time anti-heroes.  Raping, self-pitying, cowardly bastard!


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## Merkuri (Sep 22, 2006)

Cor Azer said:
			
		

> I'd say so - [House] does the heroic (save lives) in an unheroic (and often inethical) fashion, for unheroic reasons (curiosity/can he do it? rather than altruism).




He's definitely an anti-hero, though Cuddy and Wilson are pushing him to be a real hero.  That's what makes the show so interesting.  Would anyone be watching it he was just a regular hero?

Each time I watch the show I get a strong "chaotic neutral" vibe coming from House.


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## mhensley (Sep 22, 2006)

My favorite anti-hero would have to be Clint Eastwood's character in High Plains Drifter.  He kills almost every man in town and rapes half of the women... And he's the hero!


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## Michael Dean (Sep 22, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Get "The Hot Rock" or "What's the Worst that Can Happen" (AVOID the movie!). Both books are hilarious, and some of the best examples of capers out there.




The only one my crappy Barnes & Nobles had was "Watch Your Back," which looks like his newest.  So it looks like I'll be working backwards on the series.


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## Dioltach (Sep 22, 2006)

Michael Dean said:
			
		

> No, I haven't.  I've only ever seen it in a bookstore many years ago and unfortunately I didn't buy it at the time. Why? Does it tell how Flashman dies? If so, I must have it.




Not how he dies, but he features prominently, particularly in the second part of the book, which is set in 1914.


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## Pants (Sep 22, 2006)

My Picks:
Gerald Tarrant - The Coldfire Trilogy
Tyrion Lannister - A Song of Ice and Fire
Jaime Lannister - A Song of Ice and Fire
Al Swearengen - Deadwood
Locke Lamora and the Gentlemen Bastards - The Lies of Locke Lamora


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## Hussar (Sep 22, 2006)

Bernard Corwell's Sharpe is close to an anti-hero if only because he contrasts so strongly with the class sentiments of the time.

I'm thinking Angus Thermopoly (or however you spell that) from S R Donaldson definitely applies.  Pretty hard to get worse than this guy.


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## awayfarer (Sep 22, 2006)

I'm kind of surprised Black Adder made the list in the first post. I'll admit I've only seen a few episodes but he strikes me as every bit a villian. Pretty much everything he does is for personal gain.


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## mmu1 (Sep 22, 2006)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Vic Mackey is probably the greatest antihero in television today. He does things because he wants to. Sometimes it's to protect others, other times, it's to fund his eventual retirement. He's committed murder, intimidated witnesses, planted drugs, destroyed evidence and more. He's a violent thug and arguably a sociopath.
> 
> Despite that, we find ourselves rooting for *me*, just as we do with Tony Soprano.




Interesting typo, there. 

Anyway, I'd like to throw in another vote for Vlad Taltos from the _Jhereg_ novels - though practically every one of the other protagonists - Morrollan, Aliera, Sethra - also qualify. (and as far as people with soul-eating swords who rub shoulders with gods go, they're so much cooler than that pansy, Elric)

Also (starting to have to dig deeper here, since so many have already been listed)

Takeshi Kovacs from Richard Morgan's _Altered Carbon_

Practically anyone from Steven Erikson's _Malazan Books of the Fallen_ series.

Oh, and... Cerebus.


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## Zander (Sep 22, 2006)

Perhaps controversially, I would add Dr Hannibal Lecter as portrayed in the movie _Silence of the Lambs_.


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## sckeener (Sep 22, 2006)

awayfarer said:
			
		

> I'm kind of surprised Black Adder made the list in the first post. I'll admit I've only seen a few episodes but he strikes me as every bit a villian. Pretty much everything he does is for personal gain.




Villians to some maybe, but in general the Blackadders are just trying to make the best...just trying to survive (especially in the WWII season).  The Blackadder line are also the protagonists.  Just do a search for Blackadder and anti-hero and you'll get a ton of hits.  Here's a quote I liked

"Britain's top comedy export Rowan Atkinson turned Edmund Blackadder into the ultimate anti-hero. Cynical, witty and forever scheming, he was a late 20th century man trapped in a world of ignorant idiots. His only defence, a stock of the most brilliant and bizarre put-downs ever uttered".

Even the wiki on Blackadder lists anti-hero


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## Michael Dean (Sep 22, 2006)

Dioltach said:
			
		

> Not how he dies, but he features prominently, particularly in the second part of the book, which is set in 1914.




Well, then, it must be mine.   My birthday is tomorrow, maybe I can con the wife into getting it for me.


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## sckeener (Sep 22, 2006)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> How does that, in any way, make him an anti-hero?  He's less herioc because his only concern is catching bad guys and making sure no other little boy has to lose thier parents? Your logic escapes me, here.




It was just my personal view of him.   I view him as broken and less human. I view wanting a normal life to be heroic.  Some would say being a police man (or firefighter) is heroic.  For me that one aspect isn't enough.  If the person was always there for their family and was a cop (or fireman) then yes, they are heroic.  I guess it is the difference between superman and batman for me.  I see superman as wanting a normal life, but can't.


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## Umbran (Sep 22, 2006)

This isn't about gaming.  Moved to the Media Lounge.


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## Merkuri (Sep 22, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> Perhaps controversially, I would add Dr Hannibal Lecter as portrayed in the movie _Silence of the Lambs_.




Hrm... I see him more as a villan who begrudgingly helps the hero.  Were he free, I doubt he'd be helping anyone catch a killer.  The only "noble" thing he does is give information.  Talking about how one performs evil acts doesn't really make him an anti-hero, IMO.


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## sckeener (Sep 22, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> Perhaps controversially, I would add Dr Hannibal Lecter as portrayed in the movie Silence of the Lambs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Maybe.  He basically was an antihero up until he escaped.  He could still be used as an example for an RPG of an anti-hero.  I think Belkar is an antihero. Belkar Bitterleaf from Order of the Stick is a pyscho but constrained.  

So as long as your RPG anti-hero was constrained in some way, he could be as pyscho as Hannibal.


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## Hussar (Sep 23, 2006)

Hannibal Lechter isn't an anti-hero as much as a straight up villain.  He only helps to escape.  And, he isn't so much interested in helping as just wanting a chance to get out.  Helping Jodie Foster's character is not going to make him a hero.  A more interesting villain perhaps, but, certainly not a hero.

Belkar I would buy as an anti-hero.  If only because he is one of the protagonists in the story.  Then again, in comedy, it's a little trickier to pin down.

I would also like to withdraw what I said about Sharpe.  Sharpe's a hero plain and simple.  Perhaps a little dirtier sort of hero like Indiana Jones, but a hero nonetheless.

Something to remember about anti-heroes is that they are EVIL.  They are not just a dirtier sort of white knight, but rather someone who is no better than the villains he defeats.


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## Filby (Sep 24, 2006)

Hussar said:
			
		

> Something to remember about anti-heroes is that they are EVIL.  They are not just a dirtier sort of white knight, but rather someone who is no better than the villains he defeats.




I don't necessarily agree with that. I wouldn't call the Punisher or John Constantine evil, just a very underhanded kind of neutral.

I also consider unwilling heroes who don't give a crap about their cause (not well-meaning ones like Frodo Baggins), like Thomas Covenant, Shinji Ikari, and Arthur Dent, to be anti-heroes.


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