# Demon Lords



## BOZ (Aug 1, 2005)

I'm fairly certain that the classic lords Baphomet, Kostchtchie, and Zuggtmoy will be appearing in the Demonomicon feature soon enough.  So, besides those featured in the Book of Vile Darkness and the Demonomicon articles thus far (and Eltab, and Kerzit...), I'm getting a list together of those that have appeared or been mentioned in other official D&D books so far.

Have any of these archdemons appeared in other places besides the sources listed below?

An even better question would be are there any more archdemons besides those below floating around somewhere?  Greyhawk, Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragon mag, Dungeon mag, Polyhedron, etc?


Demons from page 35 of the old MM2:

Demon Princes (those with their own layer):
Abraxas, Ahrimanes, Anarazel, Ansitif, Areex, Aseroth, Astaroth, Azazel, Dagon, Eblis, Erishkigel, Mastiphal, Nocticula (female), Obox-ob, Socothbenoth

Demon Lords (those without their own layer):
Ahazu, Aldinach (female), Alrunes (female), Ardat (female), Asima, Azael, Barbu (female), Bayemon, Bechard, Baltazo, Cabiri, Charun, Gresil, Laraie, Munkir, Nekir, Nergel, Soneillon (female), Verin


Faces of Evil: the Fiends:
Alvarez, Eldanoth, Lupercio, Lynkhab, (Pale Night), Verin
(mentioned only): Zzyczesiya

Hellbound: The Blood War:
Alzrius, Lissa'aere, Vucarik

Mentioned in On Hallowed Ground: Thralhavoc


Sess'innek (Monstrous Mythology, lord of the lizard kings)

Zanassu (Empires of the Sands, spider-demon, reported dead)

Queen of Chaos and Miska the Wolf-Spider (Rod of Seven Parts)

Featured in Magazines:
Dragon #151: Sch'theraqpasstt (yuan-ti patron)
Dungeon #5: Shami-Amourae (queen of succubi)
Dungeon #10: Ilsidahur (lord of bar-lgura)


Edit (mentioned throughout this thread):
Siragle
Nql
J'zzalshrak
Argolcheir
Arzial and Shaktari
Volisupula
Lindyrm


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## Waldorf (Aug 1, 2005)

I'd say Zuggtmoy's a lock for the next one.


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## Alzrius (Aug 1, 2005)

BOZ, does the 1E MM mention any? I thought Camazotz (also a god) got a mention there.

Someone (probably Shemmy) should mention the ones from _Planes of Chaos_, _Faces of Evil: The Fiends_, and (IIRC) _Hellbound: The Blood War_.

I don't remember many from the aforementioned sources, save Pale Night (the mother of Graz'zt and several others).

Also, don't forget that _Dungeon_ #112 and #124 (the Maure Castle issues) mention Malcanthet, the Mother of Succubi (I think they may also call her the Queen or Princess of Succubi also).

A few asides: Unless they're demons with the same name, Nergal and Ereshkigal (minor spelling differences) are deities of the Babylonian pantheon. Astaroth has been consumed utterly by the baatezu lord Gargauth (which propelled him to godhood, see _Powers & Pantheons_). Ahrimanes bears a distinct (but doubtlessly coincidental) resemblance to Ahriman, the real name of the being whose avatar is called Asmodeus (see the _Guide to Hell_), and Hydra is probably not the same as Mother Hydra, mate of Father Dagon, demigods who serve Great Cthulhu (see _Call of Cthulhu d20_).


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## BOZ (Aug 1, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> BOZ, does the 1E MM mention any? I thought Camazotz (also a god) got a mention there.




i don't think the old MM mentions any that are not statted.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Someone (probably Shemmy) should mention the ones from _Planes of Chaos_, _Faces of Evil: The Fiends_, and (IIRC) _Hellbound: The Blood War_.




yeah, and i should have looked them up before i posted, instead of right after.   don't see too many in Planes of Chaos that weren't detailed before, and the ones in the other two books were some of the same ones i mentioned before but more detailed.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I don't remember many from the aforementioned sources, save Pale Night (the mother of Graz'zt and several others).




Erik Mona has already stated his dislike of her.  



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, don't forget that _Dungeon_ #112 and #124 (the Maure Castle issues) mention Malcanthet, the Mother of Succubi (I think they may also call her the Queen or Princess of Succubi also).




cool, thanks.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> A few asides: Unless they're demons with the same name, Nergal and Ereshkigal (minor spelling differences) are deities of the Babylonian pantheon. Astaroth has been consumed utterly by the baatezu lord Gargauth (which propelled him to godhood, see _Powers & Pantheons_). Ahrimanes bears a distinct (but doubtlessly coincidental) resemblance to Ahriman, the real name of the being whose avatar is called Asmodeus (see the _Guide to Hell_), and Hydra is probably not the same as Mother Hydra, mate of Father Dagon, demigods who serve Great Cthulhu (see _Call of Cthulhu d20_).




ok, cool.


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## Alzrius (Aug 1, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Erik Mona has already stated his dislike of her.




To be fair, you didn't say this thread was for possible ideas for future Demonomicon articles. Besides, Erik also preferes GH over FR, but we still have FR issues released every so often.


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## Infernal Teddy (Aug 1, 2005)

I think the "Fiend Folio" mentioned one or two, the old one I mean, but I'm away from my books right now.

One I do remember however: Lolth


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## ericlboyd (Aug 1, 2005)

From the Realms perspective:

Sess'inek gets some play in Serpent Kingdoms.

Eltab is written up in Champions of Ruin (in the BoVD, not Dragon, format).

Zanassu's fate is detailed in the write-up of Selvetarm in Demihuman Deities.

A succubi named Soneillion (who is most likely NOT the Soneillion named in the MM2 [1e]) is written up in Champions of Ruin.

--Eric


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## grodog (Aug 2, 2005)

ericlboyd said:
			
		

> A succubi named Soneillion (who is most likely NOT the Soneillion named in the MM2 [1e]) is written up in Champions of Ruin.




Eric, any thoughts on why the same name if the CoR succubi isn't the demoness lord from the 1e MM2?


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## BOZ (Aug 2, 2005)

i don't have the book, but i beleive it was stated that she is a succubus impersonating the demoness from the 1E MM2.


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## BOZ (Aug 2, 2005)

ericlboyd said:
			
		

> From the Realms perspective:
> 
> Sess'inek gets some play in Serpent Kingdoms.
> 
> ...




Eric,  are there any other FR demon lords worth considering that haven't been mentioned above?


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2005)

i noticed another one in Shade's Dungeon index: Siragle (from issue #28)

and did Adimarchus (issue #116) have full stats and everything?


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## Alzrius (Aug 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i noticed another one in Shade's Dungeon index: Siragle (from issue #28)



I'll look into that one later.



> _and did Adimarchus (issue #116) have full stats and everything?_




He did. His major ability was that he had two forms, one representing his angelic side, and one representing his demonic side (both were evil). You had to kill both forms (treated as separate monsters) on his layer of the Abyss to permanently kill him. He had quite a few other powers, and a weapon that was an artifact also.


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2005)

when i do submit my proposals, i think i'll go for some of the more obscure fellows and see what happens.


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## Alzrius (Aug 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i noticed another one in Shade's Dungeon index: Siragle (from issue #28)



Okay, here we go. Here's his status about the part of the Abyss he rules over: "This dangerous Abyssal denizen has been growing in power and influence for the past few centuries. He now holds sway over the 493rd layer of the Abyss, a small, loathsome place with few inhabitants or resources." He's featured in the adventure because a wizard sold his soul to Siragle...and several other beings.

Here are his stats:



> *Siragle*
> CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Abyss
> FREQUENCY: Unique (very rare)
> ORGANIZATION: Solitary
> ...


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## BOZ (Aug 4, 2005)

nice.    very little-known fellow.


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## Alzrius (Aug 5, 2005)

BOZ, also, don't forget about Sch'theraqpasstt, from _Dragon_ #151. He was a yuan-ti lesser deity who tried to merge with the Abyss. The experience almost destroyed him, however, and he shunted what little was left of his essence into a body he made, becoming a major demon.


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## countgray (Aug 5, 2005)

This guy is maybe the 3rd Demon Prince ever mentioned in D&D in supplement III Eldritch Wizardry (The same one that introduced us to Orcus & Demogorgon).  On p.43 in the entry on the Codex of the Infinite Planes, it makes mention of the *Demon Prince Nql*.

Just a name, no stats, and I don't recall the fiend being mentioned anywhere else ever again.

Such a mystery that the 3rd named Demon Prince in D&D has never been seen again in print.


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## BOZ (Aug 6, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> BOZ, also, don't forget about Sch'theraqpasstt, from _Dragon_ #151.




have another look at the first post.


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## BOZ (Aug 6, 2005)

countgray said:
			
		

> This guy is maybe the 3rd Demon Prince ever mentioned in D&D in supplement III Eldritch Wizardry (The same one that introduced us to Orcus & Demogorgon).  On p.43 in the entry on the Codex of the Infinite Planes, it makes mention of the *Demon Prince Nql*.
> 
> Just a name, no stats, and I don't recall the fiend being mentioned anywhere else ever again.
> 
> Such a mystery that the 3rd named Demon Prince in D&D has never been seen again in print.




maybe we can solve this mystery: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=125997&page=31&pp=40


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## Alzrius (Aug 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> have another look at the first post.




B'oh!


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## ericlboyd (Aug 6, 2005)

grodog said:
			
		

> Eric, any thoughts on why the same name if the CoR succubi isn't the demoness lord from the 1e MM2?




Well, largely because I wanted it to be that way. ;-) I wanted to use a pre-existing name for a unique female demon, but I also wanted to play with the PrCs in the back of the Fiend Folio and an advanced demon and see how powerful it could become. Then I wanted to create tie said demon tightly into existing Realmslore. She ended up very powerful, but not quite at the BoVD level for a demon lord/prince. Therefore, it seemed like a bad idea to claim she definitively was a female demon lord.

Also, I recall an old source (probably a generic AD&D1 source) indicating that sometimes demons masquerade as other demons. I can't find the source anymore, so I could be imagining it, but it seems like something demons would do to each other.

--Eric


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## ericlboyd (Aug 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Eric,  are there any other FR demon lords worth considering that haven't been mentioned above?




1) Eltab is the major unique one.
2) I folded Zanassu into Selvetarm (a drow god) in Demihuman Deities.
3) Orcus of course gets a lot of play up in the the Bloodstone Lands. (I thought that half-fiend ibixian on one of the Black Dirge threads was perfect for Vaasa.)
4) Yeenoghu (sp?) is popular among the gnolls of the Shaar as hinted at in Serpent Kingdoms.
5) Ghaunadaur (Realms version of Elder Elemental God) masquerades as Juiblex, so the Faceless Lord is NOT active in the Realms.
6) Grazz't imprisoned Waukeen for a decade, so he's probably more interested in the Realms than he ever has been.
7) I've always figured Dagon as a better demon patron for ixitichitl (sp?) and ixzan than Demogorgon, and I think I included that name in the "foes" line of a couple of aquatic deities (e.g. Deep Sashelas) in Demihuman Deities. It may have been cut by the editor though, now that I think of it.
8) Bane apparently mated with an unnamed female demon to give birth to Iyachtu Xvim. The Realmslore on that is pretty weak though.
9) Gargauth (an ex-arch devil) apparently slew and assumed the name of Astaroth. I read somewhere recently that Astaroth was a devil, but I believe the original write-up of Gargoth (old spelling) in Ed Greenwood's Nine Hells articles indicated Astaroth was a demon lord.
10) Sess'inek (sp?) is responsible for the lizard kings of the Realms (which are really just half-fiend lizardfolk). He also has a lot to do with the khaasta and their war with the sarrukh.

That's about it for demon lord/prince activity in the Realms, although I think it would be interesting to resurrect Moander as a demon lord and not as a god.

--Eric


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## Alzrius (Aug 6, 2005)

ericlboyd said:
			
		

> 7) I've always figured Dagon as a better demon patron for ixitichitl (sp?) and ixzan than Demogorgon, and I think I included that name in the "foes" line of a couple of aquatic deities (e.g. Deep Sashelas) in Demihuman Deities. It may have been cut by the editor though, now that I think of it.




Apparently so. Dagon's only mention in _Demihuman Deities_ is in the beginning of Deep Sashelas's description. It says he opposes evil powers of the sea, including Abyssal Lords such as Demogorgon and Dagon.



> _9) Gargauth (an ex-arch devil) apparently slew and assumed the name of Astaroth. I read somewhere recently that Astaroth was a devil, but I believe the original write-up of Gargoth (old spelling) in Ed Greenwood's Nine Hells articles indicated Astaroth was a demon lord._




There is one reference, though it's held against several others. Searching for "Astaroth" in the _Dragon CD-ROM Archive_ turns up five hits (one of those being for the CRPG _Ultima V_). Two of those are for issue #28's article "The Politics of Hell," where Astaroth is said to be a powerful Devil lord (the Treasurer of Hell). One references various symbology of several heavenly bodies in the solar system; each has an associated devil (and demon, and angel, etc.), and the associate devil for Mercury is Astaroth.

As far as Ed Greenwood goes, the last hit is the first time he mentions Astaroth, in _Dragon_ #75, "The Nine Hells Part I." He mentions Astaroth at the end of the description of the first layer, Avernus. He lists him as a powerful devil who may or may not exist, and may be powerful enough to back a powerful challenger to victory against Asmodeus. This mention is specifically called out as being in reference to "The Politics of Hell."

However, he then mentions him again in issue #91, "The Nine Hells Revisited." Under Gargoth's entry, he only notes that Gargoth is sometimes misnamed as Astaroth, a demon prince of great power. (This reference escapes the search feature of the Archive, since here "Astaroth" is hyphenated.)

While there is that one notation, it doesn't seem to hold against the others. Also, it always seemed weird to me that Gargauth was able to absorb a demon lord...I thought his power functioned specifically against othr baatezu (and wouldn't absorbing a CE creature corrupt his LE nature anyway?).


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## Psychotic Jim (Aug 6, 2005)

Here's another obscure one: J'zzalshrak, a female demon lord mentioned (not statted out) in the generic adventure "Bzallin's Blacksphere" in Dungeon 64 (2E).  In the module she tries to bribe an archmage named Bzallin into helping her fight in the Blood War against the Baatezu.  He refuses until he is attacked by the Baatezu attacked him.  Then he ended up joining forces with her and becoming a lich after slowly becoming evil fighting the Baatezu. 

To the best of my knowledge, I think J'zzalshrak was made up for that adventure and not mentioned since.  This demon lady is apparently fond of using arcane gifts such as expensive spell components and evil magical tomes to persuade mortals to join her side.  J'zzalshrak's main concern, unlike several demon lords, seems to be advancing her cause in the Blood War.  The module also notes that she is "not known for her subtlety", referring to her tendency to hold a grudge and get even.


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## BOZ (Aug 8, 2005)

well PJ, a google search only turned up one thing, an old post on ENworld...


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## BOZ (Aug 8, 2005)

ericlboyd said:
			
		

> 2) I folded Zanassu into Selvetarm (a drow god) in Demihuman Deities.




how would you feel if someone were to, say, pitch a Demonomicon article about him saying that a portion of his power survived somehow, tucked away in the Abyss, and that he now avoids Faerun like the plague in fear of Selvetarm?


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## BOZ (Aug 8, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Searching for "Astaroth" in the _Dragon CD-ROM Archive_ turns up five hits (one of those being for the CRPG _Ultima V_).




ah yes, that was the name of one of the Shadowlords wasn't it.


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## ericlboyd (Aug 8, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how would you feel if someone were to, say, pitch a Demonomicon article about him saying that a portion of his power survived somehow, tucked away in the Abyss, and that he now avoids Faerun like the plague in fear of Selvetarm?




Fine by me.

--Eric


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## Mystery Man (Aug 8, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m fairly certain that the classic lords Baphomet, Kostchtchie, and Zuggtmoy will be appearing in the Demonomicon feature soon enough.




The Demo-what!?

<----must be sort of "out of the loop."


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## Sammael (Aug 8, 2005)

Demonomicon of Iggwl...whatever is a semi-regular feature in Dragon Magazine, describing demon princes, their abodes, servants, and goals.


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## BOZ (Sep 2, 2005)

yep


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## Swordsage (Sep 2, 2005)

In the old DRAGON article "Rogue Stones and Gemjumping", Ed Greenwood noted a demon lord Argolcheir who was destroyed by Khelben Arunsun and a few other mages.

-- The Swordsage


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## BOZ (Sep 2, 2005)

neat!


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## Mystery Man (Sep 2, 2005)

Swordsage said:
			
		

> In the old DRAGON article "Rogue Stones and Gemjumping", Ed Greenwood noted a demon lord Argolcheir who was destroyed by Khelben Arunsun and a few other mages.
> 
> -- The Swordsage




Dragon #116, Page 54.


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## Razz (Sep 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> So, besides those featured in the Book of Vile Darkness.




The ones in that book NEED to be in the Demonomicon. WotC never updated them to 3.5, and compared to the Demon Princes in Dragon, they suck. Dragon made the stats to the Demon Princes really deserving of a Demon Prince, like quasi-deities (the way they should be). I hope they redo Graz'zt, Demogorgon, Juiblex, Orcus, and Yeenoghu the correct way.


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## Shemeska (Sep 2, 2005)

Razz said:
			
		

> The ones in that book NEED to be in the Demonomicon. WotC never updated them to 3.5, and compared to the Demon Princes in Dragon, they suck. Dragon made the stats to the Demon Princes really deserving of a Demon Prince, like quasi-deities (the way they should be). I hope they redo Graz'zt, Demogorgon, Juiblex, Orcus, and Yeenoghu the correct way.




Those that previously had divine rank as outright deities, or equivalent without being true deities themselves, deserve to have that back after 3e stripped it of all of them. They're not just pit fiends or balors with a few extra hit dice that once you hit level 21 you can feel are legitimate targets to go hunt down and kill in their extraplanar dungeon. These are beings more primal than and in many cases older than the deities themselves, layers of lower planes personified, vices, sins, pains, diseases and other abstracts made manifest.

Demogorgon, Orcus, Anthraxus, the General of Gehenna, Asmodeus etc ... they're not just bigger badder fiends. They're something else entirely, and the game has lost the same atmosphere and mystique when they're just treated as bigger CR targets.


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## The Serge (Sep 2, 2005)

In case anyone's interested, Dicefreaks has our Demonic Dictionary.  Many of the demons were written based upon the three editions of D&D; even if you don't care for the stats (which are very epic), the flavor may fufill your interests.  In most cases (at least with the ones I wrote) we can refer to the materials used to create the flavor.


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## BOZ (Sep 3, 2005)

Swordsage said:
			
		

> In the old DRAGON article "Rogue Stones and Gemjumping", Ed Greenwood noted a demon lord Argolcheir who was destroyed by Khelben Arunsun and a few other mages.




well, looked it up, and it seems he got killed pretty solidly, and is really little more than a footnote.   c'est la vie for him!


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## BOZ (Sep 3, 2005)

The Serge said:
			
		

> In case anyone's interested, Dicefreaks has our Demonic Dictionary.  Many of the demons were written based upon the three editions of D&D; even if you don't care for the stats (which are very epic), the flavor may fufill your interests.  In most cases (at least with the ones I wrote) we can refer to the materials used to create the flavor.




what sources (if any) did Apollyon, Merodach, Mormo, and Rahab come from?


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## Patman21967 (Sep 3, 2005)

I have an old boxed set from a 3rd party called Demons, that has tons. Drop me an email Boz, if you like, and I'll see if I can scan the stuff in, if you want to look at it.


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## Shemeska (Sep 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what sources (if any) did Apollyon, Merodach, Mormo, and Rahab come from?




I don't recall ever seeing them in any DnD source, but Apollyon comes from some branch of Xtian demonology, and Mormo sounds familiar to Lovecraft's 'Gorgo-Mormo the Thousand Faced Moon' from 'The Horror at Red Hook'. But knowing Lovecraft's schtick, there's probably a link or reference to mythology there.


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## BOZ (Sep 3, 2005)

i wasn't assuming they had been in D&D before, but i was curious.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 3, 2005)

The original Mormo was Greek, a minor goddess who served Hecate and acted like a boogeyman to frighten children into good behavior. The name was later applied to another regional variant of vampire.

Demiurge out.


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## Erik Mona (Sep 8, 2005)

To what official sources should I turn if I'm looking for information on Thralhavoc and Vucarik?

Thanks,

Erik


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## Shemeska (Sep 8, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> To what official sources should I turn if I'm looking for information on Thralhavoc and Vucarik?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Erik




Vucarik shows up in _Hellbound: The Blood War_ page 26 in the DMs Guide / Dark of the War. He's mentioned IIRC in one other 2e source, just as a name drop, but he originated in Hellbound and all the information is there.

Never heard of Thralhavoc.


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## J-Buzz (Sep 8, 2005)

If I remember I will try and get more information.   But it seems to me that in the FR Silver Marshes Setting there was a demon that rules over Hellgate Keep where one of the mythals is.  Probably not much help.


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## Shemeska (Sep 8, 2005)

J-Buzz said:
			
		

> If I remember I will try and get more information.   But it seems to me that in the FR Silver Marshes Setting there was a demon that rules over Hellgate Keep where one of the mythals is.  Probably not much help.




Kanyr- Vhok (sp?), is the cambion ruler of Hellgate Keep.


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## Razz (Sep 8, 2005)

I just would love to see Graz'zt done up Dragon Mag. style. Him and Orcus, then I'd like to see Demogorgon, Yeenoghu, and Juiblex next. The non-updated statistics in BoVD that WotC failed to fix (yet they updated every other book to 3.5) I can't even use in my games. Not when compared to Dragon's awesome articles of Demon Princes.  :\


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## BOZ (Sep 8, 2005)

Shemeska's got it right on Vucarik.

Thralhavoc was mentioned in On Hallowed Ground in an index of Abyssal Lords, noting only that he used to rule the 348th layer of the Abyss.  i'm not sure where else to find information on him.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2005)

I have a sneaking suspicion that Monte might have been behind Thralhavoc.  The resemblance to his company's name, his involvement with Planescape, and the fact that you never see the two of them in the same room...the truth is out there.


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## BOZ (Sep 12, 2005)

you never know, especially with his significant involvement in Planescape.


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## The Serge (Sep 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what sources (if any) did Apollyon, Merodach, Mormo, and Rahab come from?



Apollyon is from _The Dictionary of Angels_ by Gustav Davidson.  I believe Merodach and Rahab are also from the same sources.  

Mormo came from a name I ran across on these boards in the Homebrew monsters three years ago or so.

None of these were built with D&D material.


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## Voadam (Sep 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what sources (if any) did Apollyon, Merodach, Mormo, and Rahab come from?




Mormo I believe has an entry in The Divine and The Defeated.


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## BOZ (Sep 13, 2005)

Some pretty informative links:

http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/theabyss.html
http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/abyssallords.html


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## Shemeska (Sep 13, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Some pretty informative links:
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/theabyss.html
> http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/abyssallords.html




Rip, as always, has some F'ing awesome stuff. But don't expect that all to be direct from 'canon', he's got a mix of whatever seemed like cool ideas from various sources, his own creations, etc. They're all seriously inspired in most cases however.

I need to blackmail him into submitting something to Dragon...


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## BOZ (Sep 13, 2005)

no, i see that a lot of it is not official... but a lot of it is.


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## BOZ (Sep 14, 2005)

by contrast, here is grodog's take on the matter: http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_abyss_planes.html

definitely with a 1E slant, thus ignoring Planescape altogether.  looks like most of that information is 1E canon plus Gord info.


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## Soel (Sep 14, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Rip, as always, has some F'ing awesome stuff.
> I need to blackmail him into submitting something to Dragon...




No kidding!!! I would love to see his work in the pages of that mag!


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## BOZ (Sep 14, 2005)

he would need to submit something first.


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## BOZ (Sep 15, 2005)

where did Rhyxali appear by the way?  i see her name mentioned here and there but i'm not familiar with her.


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## Alzrius (Sep 15, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> where did Rhyxali appear by the way?  i see her name mentioned here and there but i'm not familiar with her.




You can find her here.


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## BOZ (Sep 15, 2005)

oh right, i remember her now, then!  is that the only place she has appeared?  has she been mentioned elsewhere?


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## Alzrius (Sep 15, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> oh right, i remember her now, then!  is that the only place she has appeared?  has she been mentioned elsewhere?




To the best of my knowledge, she's never appeared elsewhere.


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## BOZ (Sep 15, 2005)

gotcha!


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## BOZ (Sep 16, 2005)

http://greyhawkonline.com/pitsofevil/viewtopic.php?t=6532


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## Alzrius (Sep 17, 2005)

BOZ, that link doesn't seem to be working. What issue of _Dungeon_ did you mention there that you think had a Demon Lord in it?


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## BOZ (Sep 17, 2005)

how would you know i mentioned that if the link's not working?  

the site does appear to be down now, but it was working this morning...

the magic number is "64".  also, see the 24th post of the thread you are currently viewing.


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## Alzrius (Sep 17, 2005)

Okay, yeah, I wasn't sure, but #64 only mentions that tanar'ri lord in passing, with no stats. The information there is somewhat patchwork, as well, only mentioning her in the context of her background in the adventure.


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## BOZ (Sep 17, 2005)

hey, a few lines can be enough to start with sometimes...


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## grodog (Sep 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> by contrast, here is grodog's take on the matter: http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_abyss_planes.html
> 
> definitely with a 1E slant, thus ignoring Planescape altogether.  looks like most of that information is 1E canon plus Gord info.




Yep, I never got into PS:  the cant in the Dragon previews was enough to turn me off (and I never played 2e, which didn't help my liking for PS, since I never liked the logic for renmaing to bateezu and tanari, and the Blood War always seemed lame to me, etc., etc.).  

I added liberally to the Gord stuff from my own imaginings, since there really wasn't a lot of 1e Abyss canon to work with; most of the planar descriptions are generic, and I decided on layers and rulers based on the limited info available in 1e, Gord, and DM fiat.  You may want to check out the material the I wrote up around my demonic geneaology and -mythology articles on Canonfiire! (see my Exceprts from the Demonomicon of Iggwilv series at http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=grodog).
I also decided that the River Styx and others flowed throughout all of the underworld planes, with Styx being the most commonly found (therefore I treat it as a plane of it's own, in essence).


----------



## grodog (Sep 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> oh right, i remember her now, then!  is that the only place she has appeared?  has she been mentioned elsewhere?




Sepulchrave makes use of Rhyxali in his famously-overridden-with-demons Story Hour.  All folks seeking inspiration for the Abyss should go read it:  http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=58227


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## grodog (Sep 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how would you know i mentioned that if the link's not working?
> 
> the site does appear to be down now, but it was working this morning...
> 
> the magic number is "64".  also, see the 24th post of the thread you are currently viewing.




All hosted sites on greyhawkonline.com were down for a little while, due to some issues with spyware being propogated from them.  I think we're fixed now, since I was able to reach the main domain today; as a result, I put my site back online too.  

If anyone sees problems with the sites, please email me immediately, and I'll call our host owner to work further on it.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 18, 2005)

yeah, the link in post #65 is working again.  



			
				grodog said:
			
		

> Yep, I never got into PS:  the cant in the Dragon previews was enough to turn me off (and I never played 2e, which didn't help my liking for PS, since I never liked the logic for renmaing to bateezu and tanari, and the Blood War always seemed lame to me, etc., etc.).




i know, a lot of old schoolers were turned off by the approach of the designers to the planes.  however, if you can ever find someone to translate it into english for you (  ), you'd be surprised how much highly detailed info there is on gods, gods' realms, planar races and locations and such that could easily be plugged into any 1E or 3E planar camapaign with a bit of tweaking here and there.  the level of imagination used in the setting itself (once you get past the sticking points of the factions, cant, and blood war) is quite simply astounding.  if used as nothing else than a source for mining for ideas, you'd be surprised how much non-faction, non-blood war stuff you'll find, much of which was based largely on older existing material, if you can get past the initial bias.


----------



## Grover Cleaveland (Sep 18, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Rip, as always, has some F'ing awesome stuff. But don't expect that all to be direct from 'canon', he's got a mix of whatever seemed like cool ideas from various sources, his own creations, etc. They're all seriously inspired in most cases however.




This is Rip, in my goofy ENWorld name. Yeah, that list comes from all over the place. I stole quite a bit from Grodog's site, actually, though a lot of it got mangled in the translation as I spliced it with other sources. Hope he doesn't mind.

Astaroth was listed as a demon in the original MMII. The original description of Gargoth in Dragon #91 is based directly on a _devil_ named Astaroth from Dragon #28 (which preceded the MMII by a number of years); it's likely that Greenwood changed his name from Astaroth to Gargoth (after the MMII, trying to salvage something of the #28 article) solely to avoid having two powerful fiends with the same name from opposite ends of the Law-Chaos spectrum. As far as I know, the idea that Gargauth slew the demon Astaroth originated in _Powers and Pantheons_.

Thralhavoc was a balor who ruled Abyssal layer #348, which is now dominated by the nalfeshnee Taphaon, of the Fortress of Indifference. The best source of info on this is _Hellbound: the Blood War_ though bits of it get mentioned in the 3e _Manual of the Planes_ and in the _Book of Vile Darkness_.

BOZ, are you limiting yourself to TSR/WotC demons? 

- Rip


----------



## grodog (Sep 18, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> This is Rip, in my goofy ENWorld name. Yeah, that list comes from all over the place. I stole quite a bit from Grodog's site, actually, though a lot of it got mangled in the translation as I spliced it with other sources. Hope he doesn't mind.




Nope, Rip, I have no objections


----------



## BOZ (Sep 18, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> BOZ, are you limiting yourself to TSR/WotC demons?




for legal reasons, it's the safest thing.


----------



## grodog (Sep 20, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i know, a lot of old schoolers were turned off by the approach of the designers to the planes.  however, if you can ever find someone to translate it into english for you (  ), you'd be surprised how much highly detailed info there is on gods, gods' realms, planar races and locations and such that could easily be plugged into any 1E or 3E planar camapaign with a bit of tweaking here and there.




Yeah, given the setting's popularity, I figured it couldn't be as abysmal as the introductory articles in Dragon made it look.  I do own Dead Gods (it has GH stuff in it), but I haven't read it cover-to-cover yet.  Is that a good, representative PS product in general, in terms of the scope of the setting, it's flavor, etc.?



> the level of imagination used in the setting itself (once you get past the sticking points of the factions, cant, and blood war) is quite simply astounding.  if used as nothing else than a source for mining for ideas, you'd be surprised how much non-faction, non-blood war stuff you'll find, much of which was based largely on older existing material, if you can get past the initial bias.




I was given Monte's Beyond Countless Doorways for Christmas last year (I succumbed to the ads' allusions to Moorcock's planar works).  How's that compare to DG and to PS in general?

Back on topic:  I'll almost certainly be adding some more demon princes to my Excerpts from the Demonomicon of Iggwilv series soon, since I just wrapped up a large GH project on my site.  Obox-ob and some of the others that are relatively unique to my campaign will be appearing first, I think


----------



## Shemeska (Sep 20, 2005)

grodog said:
			
		

> Yeah, given the setting's popularity, I figured it couldn't be as abysmal as the introductory articles in Dragon made it look.  I do own Dead Gods (it has GH stuff in it), but I haven't read it cover-to-cover yet.  Is that a good, representative PS product in general, in terms of the scope of the setting, it's flavor, etc.?




Yes, DG is a damn good module and it does hit on many of the elements of the setting, though it doesn't get into Sigil much.

If you want to get a fuller scope of the setting, I'd suggest looked at 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends', 'Hellbound: The Blood War', 'Uncaged: Faces of Sigil', and 'Factols Manifesto'. Those books hit the setting themes of the Blood War, Sigil, and the abstract philosophies of the factions.

The notion that cant was somehow oppressive and omnipresent is a bit overused, and generally held by folks who haven't had a really good exposure to the setting. There's really only one or two books where it honestly might be overdone, and then it's just a question of style and if you like it or not. It's easy to ignore if you don't.

But as a whole, the 2e Planescape stuff took the 1e planar material and expanded it in a massive, truly massive way. It fleshed out concepts, people and places like you wouldn't believe; putting depth and complexity to things that were previously precious little more than names, stats and some brief descriptions. The planes are places that ooze history, mystique, and a sense of scope and scale to do justice to the infinite planes. And this is just my opinion, but trying to run a game in the planes of DnD and not using the full extent of PS resources and the 3e material which is pretty much wholly derived from the 2e PS stuff, would be like running a Forgotten Realms campaign without anything written by or derived from material first created by Ed Greenwood. The expansion of material on the planes from 1e in Planescape is really that massive.

Keep in mind I didn't play till 3e and I rather adore the PS material for what I perceive as the level of creatively and inspiration in the writing, and the atmosphere of the setting, so perhaps I'm biased in this. 





> I was given Monte's Beyond Countless Doorways for Christmas last year (I succumbed to the ads' allusions to Moorcock's planar works).  How's that compare to DG and to PS in general?




It's a good book, one the better ones of the past year or two, but it doesn't quite compare to the PS stuff in the atmosphere that you get out of it.


----------



## The Serge (Sep 20, 2005)

grodog said:
			
		

> I do own Dead Gods (it has GH stuff in it), but I haven't read it cover-to-cover yet.  Is that a good, representative PS product in general, in terms of the scope of the setting, it's flavor, etc.?



It's a good representation of PS material and, to most, one of the best.  It has a very broad scope and the flavor's all there.  For some, however, the material is a bit much and the use of Orcus and Tenebrous and so forth left me a little... raw.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 20, 2005)

grodog said:
			
		

> Yep, I never got into PS:  the cant in the Dragon previews was enough to turn me off (and I never played 2e, which didn't help my liking for PS, since I never liked the logic for renmaing to bateezu and tanari, and the Blood War always seemed lame to me, etc., etc.).
> 
> I added liberally to the Gord stuff from my own imaginings, since there really wasn't a lot of 1e Abyss canon to work with; most of the planar descriptions are generic, and I decided on layers and rulers based on the limited info available in 1e, Gord, and DM fiat.  You may want to check out the material the I wrote up around my demonic geneaology and -mythology articles on Canonfiire! (see my Exceprts from the Demonomicon of Iggwilv series at http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=grodog).
> I also decided that the River Styx and others flowed throughout all of the underworld planes, with Styx being the most commonly found (therefore I treat it as a plane of it's own, in essence).




I agree with you on the PS stuff, the cant was a huge turn off for me reading the material.  Ditto on the renaming stuff and the blood war.


----------



## Shemeska (Sep 20, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Ditto on the renaming stuff and the blood war.




That existed before Planescape. Baatezu and Tanar'ri first appear in a pre-Planescape 2e book (Monstrous Compendium: Outer Planes Appendix) as well as the idea of the Blood War.

Planescape was handed that and took what was originally a pretty shifty reasoning for the changes and made them into something bloody brilliantly inspired in how they developed them.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 20, 2005)

in all fairness... the demons and devils were renamed about three years _before_ planescape, as part of the whole 2E "let's forget we ever had anything called demons and devils".    planescape was stuck with "baatezu" and "tanar'ri", and they did the best they could with what they had.  

Edit: what Shemeshka said.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 20, 2005)

found this item in my Dragon index thread:



			
				Richards said:
			
		

> 270 - Brazen bull (Armor of the Abyssal Lords, Paul Fraser)




anyone care to enlighten?  


also, this item might be useful to the archdemons:

233 - Tanar'ri living fortresses (Fiendish Fortresses, Monte Cook)


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 20, 2005)

Oh, sorry for the confusion.  I didn't do 2e so I lump PS and 2e stuff in the same boat frequently since PS was a setting for 2e and all that.  My bad.  But in any event I find the concept of the blood war kind of silly.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 20, 2005)

i'm sure it wasn't the designers' first choice of what to do.  most likely, it was kind of "well, legal dept./management says we can't use demons and devils as-is.  but if we change them just enough, maybe we can get by that..."


----------



## Sammael (Sep 20, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> found this item in my Dragon index thread:
> 
> 
> 
> anyone care to enlighten?



IIRC (and I do have the issue... somewhere) Brazen Bull was one of the several suits of armor supposedly crafted by/for Abyssal Lords. Needless to say, that one was connected to Baphomet. The article also detailed armors (not all of them were very armor-like, actually) comissioned by Pazuzu, Lolth, Orcus, Fraz'urbluu, and Yeenoghu, plus a set of bracers (Pelargic Aegis or something) that wasn't attributed to any particular lord.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 20, 2005)

wicked cool!


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## Alzrius (Sep 20, 2005)

Sammael said:
			
		

> The article also detailed armors (not all of them were very armor-like, actually) comissioned by Pazuzu, Lolth, Orcus, Fraz'urbluu, and Yeenoghu, plus a set of bracers (Pelargic Aegis or something) that wasn't attributed to any particular lord.




I don't recall the bracers, but I recall there was one flame-themed armor that wasn't attributed to a lord in particular, citing that no one knew who it was made by/for. Personally, I thought it was Alzrius.


----------



## Erik Mona (Sep 21, 2005)

I wrote an article on Abyssal magic items that appeared in Polyhedron #136 or thereabouts. References to Alzrius and other 2e-era demon princes abound.

--Erik


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## BOZ (Sep 21, 2005)

there you go, Al.


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## Alzrius (Sep 21, 2005)

You mentioned that before, Erik. It was Poly #135, and the reference to Alzrius was a magic item called the Flame Amulet of Alzrius. Sadly, I still haven't been able to find that issue.


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## Sammael (Sep 21, 2005)

OK, I managed to find my copy of #270. Here are the details (I hope Erik doesn't mind, I tried not to be too specific):

Each suit of armor bears a powerful curse, appropriate to the Abyssal Lord who comissioned it.

The Battlemonger (Yeenoghu): crude suit of battered lamellar armor, Mongolian in design. Exudes stench; gnolls, ghouls, and ghasts will not harm the wearer; grants additional proficiency with wielded weapons. Curse: wearer must feed on humanoid flesh or go berserk.

The Black Prison (Graz'zt): ebon black full plate, Draconic design. Grants stealth, immunity to poison gas, drowning; blindsight; wearer does not need to eat, drink, or breathe; wearer regenerates, can use draconic fear aura. Curse: cannot be removed as long as the wearer is alive, drives wearer insane.

The Horned Casque (Baphomet): bronze spiked platemail, looks like a minotaur (d'uh). Wearer gains some minotaur traits, can charge and gore, _charm_ minotaurs, summon the Brazen Bull once per week. Curse: wearer must attack gnolls or ghouls on sight; if wearer attacks minotaurs or shows cowardice, armor spikes turn inwards and impale wearer. Functions only for males.

The Immolator (unknown): scarlet, gold, and orange o-yoroi (treat as splint mail). Wearer is shed in flames, can throw fireballs, use several other fire spell-like abilities (including _chariot of Sustarre_). Curse: wearer becomes a pyromaniac.

The Infinite Panoply (Fraz-Urb'luu): chages appearance at every sunrise, irrespective of owner's wishes. Wearer is immune to illusions and protected by nondetection; glamered; retributive (both attacks and spells); several SLAs. Curse: will vanish at the critical moment for its wearer.

The Juggernaut (Orcus): 12' tall exoskeleton made of different bones (topped with a nalfeshnee skull helmet). Wearer enters harness and a bone proboscis penetrates his skull, allowing him to command the exoskeleton mentally. Wearer gains some undead immunities and resistances, undead won't harm the wearer and he can command them; can use bonebreath once per day. Curse: wearer is exhausted after using the armor, each use drains hit points permanently. At zero hp, user is transformed into a ju-ju zombie. 

The Lady's Favor (Zuggtmoy): dirty, stained leather armor. Wearer is immune to plant, mold, and fungus-based attacks and effects; corrodes metal like a rust monster; several spell-like abilities. Curse: when donned, make a save or be infected with Lady's Favor (Abyssal mold). If infected, wearer loses 1 Cha per week until dead.

The Lavashu (Juiblex): living symbiote, looks like a 3' ball of viscous tar, envelops host (leaving only hands, eyes, ears, and nostrils uncovered). Grants electrical immunity, freedom of movement, cushions falls; weapons that strike the host stick in the tar. Curse: host cannot remove it. Lavashu is intelligent and CE, attempts to seize permanent control of the host. 

The Pelagic Aegis (Dagon): golden greaves and vambraces engraved with sea monsters. Grants immunity to water-based attacks, water breathing, freedom of movement underwater, regeneration while in water. Also gives water creatures ability to function on land indefinitely. Several SLAs (including _Dagon's curse_). Curse: air-breathers become unable to breathe air, water-breathers are transported to Dagon's court in the Abyss.

The Raptor Cuirass (Pazuzu): winged and taloned breastplate. Wearer can fly, strike with poisoned talons, has several SLAs. Curse: wearer's bones become hollow (Str -1) every week until wearer collapses into a jellyfish-like mass and dies.

The Rime Guard (Kostchtchie): crystalline ice platemail with polar bear headdress. Wearer is immune to cold and resistant to fire; can walk on snow and ice as on normal ground; temperature is lowered around the armor; several SLAs (including _frostfreeze_, i.e. _flesh to ice_). Curse: lycanthropy (CE, polar bear). 

The Spiderspawn (Lolth): adamantine chainmail (with spidersilk and rubies). Unaffected by sunlight, wearer is immune to poison and always strikes first in a round. Several spidery SLAs, including the ability to polymorph into a myrlochar. Curse: nondrow wearers are hunted down, drow wearers who displease Lolth are transformed into driders. Powers function only for females.

The Wizard Ward (Demogorgon): emerald scalemail hauberk (resembling snakeskin). Bestows magic resistance, serpentfolk won't harm wearer; can be worn by wizards; wearer can _charm_ serpent creatures, cause scales to flash like a _robe of scintillating colors_. Wearer can produce a spellwhip (drains spells in addition to damage) 3/day. Curse: wearer gradually transforms into a serpent.


----------



## Pants (Sep 21, 2005)

I think that was the first issue of _Dragon_ that I ever bought.  Cool issue, I might still have it somewhere.


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## KL (Sep 24, 2005)

*Demon Lords in Dungeon*

I remember that there was a minor demon lord named Arzial who serves under Graz'zt in an issue of Dungeon, also another issue had an adventure taking place on the layer named Vudra dominated by Shaktari, which in 3e terms, is probably a gargantuan-sized advanced marilith.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 24, 2005)

anyone have a clue on the issue # for those?


----------



## KL (Sep 24, 2005)

The Immolator armor obviously was made for an Abyssal Lord of fire, it could be Alzrius, or Marduk. Accoridng to Gygaz' awful Gor d books, Marduk is the King of the Fir Demons and one of the "Monarchs of Demonium".


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## KL (Sep 24, 2005)

Vudra is detailed in Dragon #60 in the Planescape adventure called Nemesis.  It is the 531st layer of the Abyss, consist of a blood red poisonous ocean dotted with islands, each of which ruled by a marilith. The ruler is the "Queen of Poison", a gargantuan-sized  marilith with jet black skin and blood red eye  marilith named Shaktari, who spends most of her time sleeping in the poison ocean.

As for Arzial, I think he was in one of the earlier issues, in an adventure called Amulet of the Abyss. Like Shaktari, Arzial was mentioned, no stats were given.


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## Alzrius (Sep 24, 2005)

Arzial is from the adventure "The Ruins of Nol-Daer" in _Dungeon_ #13. As KL mentioned, Shaktari is from "Nemesis" in _Dungeon_ #60. I'll see what else I can find later.


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## BOZ (Sep 24, 2005)

a bit of Googling later:

Arzial is a Demon Baron serving under Graz'zt. He appears in the description of the "Amulet of the Abyss", a New Magical Item described in the (very good) module "The ruins of Nol-Daer" in Dungeon Adventures issue # 13, page 17.

The Amulet (and Arzial) is also mentionned in the Encyclopedia Magica Volume 1, page 27.


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## KL (Sep 25, 2005)

*Obscure demon lord*

I remember in Dragon Magazine, there once mentioned a demon lord named Gorion. Of course, back in the old days before AD&D, Nasthrapur was an example of the random demon generator.


----------



## Alzrius (Sep 25, 2005)

KL said:
			
		

> I remember in Dragon Magazine, there once mentioned a demon lord named Gorion.




Extremely obscure. This is from "Lords & Legends" in _Dragon_ #139. The name was mentioned once, with no description, in the entry for Shugar.



> _Of course, back in the old days before AD&D, Nasthrapur was an example of the random demon generator._




From the "Demon Generation" article in _Dragon_ #13. He was an example "6th-level demon" made by the system described therein.


----------



## KL (Sep 25, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> Thralhavoc was a balor who ruled Abyssal layer #348, which is now dominated by the nalfeshnee Taphaon, of the Fortress of Indifference. The best source of info on this is _Hellbound: the Blood War_ though bits of it get mentioned in the 3e _Manual of the Planes_ and in the _Book of Vile Darkness_.
> 
> BOZ, are you limiting yourself to TSR/WotC demons?
> 
> - Rip




Where was it that mentioned Thralhavoc was a balor? Thralhavoc, like Volisupula (Planes of Chaos) and Zzyczesiya (Faces of Fiends) was mentioned in name only.


----------



## KL (Sep 25, 2005)

*Gygaxian demons in the Gord books*

I have read some of those awful Gord books that Gygax wrote. I mainly skip most of them and concentrate on his treatment on the Lower Planes, which fascinates me. There is a hostof new demon princes (with familiar ones under different names).

In the books, the following demon lords are listed as: Fraz-Urb'luu/Var-Az-Hloo, Juiblex/Szhublox, Lolth/Arachne, Verin/Vuron. Other undetailed MM2 demons had slightly different spellings like Eblis/Eblitis, Socothbenoth/Socothbenothas, Azazel/Azazael.

Demon princes that were mentioned, and some had crop up in other websites, developed by others:

Mandrillagon, a sibling of Demogorgon, resemble a huge blue-faced mandrill, rules two layers.
Ushablator the Chaos Horror.
Zortolagon, said to be one of the most powerful demon princes.
Bulumuz, decribed in the web somewhere as a lord of madness.
Elazalag, an abat-dolor princess, of the same species as Graz'zt.
Cagrino (according to myths, related to the chargin grues/demons)
Marduk, the king of fire demons who is one of the "Monarch of Demonium"
Ogrijek, lord of the four winged hawk-man zubassu
Trobbo-gotath, a "greatest demon of earth".
Apepi , a cobra-headed lord who wields a kopesh.
Uliel - Probably a balor that serves Zuggtmoy.
Shabriri - one of the proto-demons, said to be multi eyed. He is NOT Cabiri as some suggested.
Palvlag - a protodemon of fire.
Nergel/Nergal - in the books he is a minor prince of the undead, specifically umbral undeads.
Levithan (probably Leviathan) - undescribed but in real world myth, an enormous female seas monster.
Lugush - undescribed, prehaps a corruption of "Lugh".
Ariax - a prince whom Graz'zt had triumphed over and whose holdings expanded Graz'zt empire to eight planes. Perhaps same as Areex.
Vastyi - the toadmaster, supposedly an amphibian demon lord, although some identified him as the god Wastri.

Other lordlings include Vloorm, Agadin, Zerkaar, Chidun, Zomar, Yuibiri, Arioch (named used for a devil), Nexroth (name used already for a pit fiend).

Speaking of Verin/Vuron, his "stats" were listed in For Duty and Deity, and basically, he is a male marilith, which I think go against what we know and accept about him.


----------



## KL (Sep 25, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Extremely obscure. This is from "Lords & Legends" in _Dragon_ #139. The name was mentioned once, with no description, in the entry for Shugar.
> 
> 
> 
> From the "Demon Generation" article in _Dragon_ #13. He was an example "6th-level demon" made by the system described therein.




Oh, also this one, he is kind of like Kerzit, a powerful unique demon, but not a lord or prince: Quaolnargn, from the 1e DGG in the Melnibonean mythos. A "toad-shaped demon from the Abyss".


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## BOZ (Sep 25, 2005)

would he be copywritten by the people who own the Elric stuff though?


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## Alzrius (Sep 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> would he be copywritten by the people who own the Elric stuff though?




I'll take "Almost Assuredly" for $200, Alex.

Seriously, it's a virtual guarantee that that name is one that appears in the Elric novels (I haven't read them, so I'm not positive, but it seems extremely likely), and as such is their IP. White Wolf has the licensing rights to make an RPG game out of said novels, so anything else would be in violation of their copyright (or something). There's a reason that section (and the Cthulhu section) of the 1E D&Dg had to be removed.


----------



## Henrix (Sep 25, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Seriously, it's a virtual guarantee that that name is one that appears in the Elric novels (I haven't read them, so I'm not positive, but it seems extremely likely), and as such is their IP. White Wolf has the licensing rights to make an RPG game out of said novels, so anything else would be in violation of their copyright (or something).



Yes, the name Qualnarg (or however it is spelled) is certainly in the Elric books, and some of the other eternal champion books as well.

The copyright issue is troublesome and a little unresolved, though.
Chaosium (not WW) does the Elric/Stormbringer RPG, and says they have the right to do it. Michael Moorcock says he hasn't got a cent from them, and so kind of disputes their right to it, but as far as I know he hasn't taken any legal action. And there's probably some good reason for that.
Wouldn't want to step in there trying to use the name, anyway.


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## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

absolutely not.


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## BOZ (Oct 5, 2005)

a tanar'ri Lord, Lindyrm, is mentioned at the beginning of the module The Deva Spark, but only briefly.


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## BOZ (Oct 16, 2005)

also, went looking for, and found additional mentions in the Demonomicon articles themselves.  

found Pazuzu's ex-g/f Lamashtu mentioned a few times in his article.    she was "She Who Erases," the demon queen of monstrous birth and deformity.

Socothbenoth is mentioned in Frazzy's article, as having tried to force him from his home plane - that's all we've got there.  

Ugudenk is also discussed in Frazzy's article, the demon lord of worms and hungry parasites (apparently one of James' favorites, hmm could he possibly appear in Age of Worms?), and has insinuated himself into Frazzy's home realm.

i know that Zuggy's article featured two new demon lords as well, but i don't have my own copy yet.  anyone care to name them here?


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## Alzrius (Oct 16, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i know that Zuggy's article featured two new demon lords as well, but i don't have my own copy yet.  anyone care to name them here?




It mentions that Zuggtmoy "has often been seen cavorting in the poisonous laboratories of Haagenti, Lord of Alchemy."

There's also a long paragraph devoted to talking about Yibyiru, the Rancid Lady of Bitter Bile. This minor demon lord could be Zuggtmoy's child, or perhaps her mother. She serves as a combination major-domo and chabermaid. She was the reason that Juiblex didn't completely take over Zuggtmoy's layer in her absence.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 16, 2005)

thank you!


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Oct 16, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> An even better question would be are there any more archdemons besides those below floating around somewhere?  Greyhawk, Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragon mag, Dungeon mag, Polyhedron, etc?




As far as Mystara goes, Orcus and Demogorgon might count, though they've been described elsewhere.

Other than that, there really aren't any archdemons. The cosmology as far as that sort of thing goes really is muddied a bit by the Immortality issue. In the original Immortal's set, Immortals of Entropy and Demons were one and the same- hence Demogorgon and Orcus were both demons and Entropic Immortals (gods); same goes for Alphaks (with a manifestation form of a Balor). There really isn't/wasn't the distinction between Gods/Immortals and other inhabitants of the Outer Planes on the level of the demons/devils/daemons that was/is found in other editions.

That being said, I think the Mystara cosmology certainly is flexible enough that such concepts could easily be worked in. In which case, along with Orcus and Demogorgon, I'd nominate Alphaks, probably Atzanteotl, Masauwu and Leptar at the very least as archdemons or archdevils.


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## KL (Nov 28, 2005)

About Haagenti the Lord of Alchemy, he is one of the demon lords mentioned in Green Ronin's Armies of the Abyss, along with a host of other LAME demon lords like Shax, Raum, Seere, and Ipos.


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## Ripzerai (Nov 28, 2005)

KL said:
			
		

> About Haagenti the Lord of Alchemy, he is one of the demon lords mentioned in Green Ronin's Armies of the Abyss, along with a host of other LAME demon lords like Shax, Raum, Seere, and Ipos.




I like some of those. I forget which ones I said I didn't like before. 

Anyway, Haagenti was also mentioned in one of James Jacobs' Demonomicon articles, which was a nice tip of the hat.


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