# [VtR] [OOC] Born into Darkness



## Graf (Dec 30, 2007)

New OOC thread, since the last one was basically unnavigable.


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## Graf (Dec 30, 2007)

Hypothetically this post will, in the future, include links to all the links on the original discussion about various topics.

[underconstruction]
*Attributes*: "Bump" for vampire template
*Attributes*: Wits vs. Manipulation

*Book keeping*: The Condition Tracker


*Disciplines*: Auspex
Varied *Discipline *Die Pools

*Feeding*/ hunger levels/etc

PC controlled *Frenzy*

*Merits*: Importance of PC decisions in story

*Rolling*: How PC rolls with be modified
Rolling for Info/Hints (if you're struck or what have you)

*Posting*: Post early and Often

*Posting*:Format

Why all the *social rolls*

Drawbacks of using *Willpower Points*
ST spending *Willpower *without explicit player permission.

Ways to get extra *XP*

Misc
Adding new players


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## WarShrike (Dec 30, 2007)

I was getting pretty long, wasn't it.


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## Graf (Dec 31, 2007)

Yeah. I shoulda been more organized but whatever.

I actually haven't looked at it yet. Just want to get a few more things set up before I go back and look at the new posts (if there are any since I stopped reading to try to get focused on the game). Will do that soonish.

War,
Your character is actually awake and in the mansion downstairs. Will put up your intro in a second (or when I finish editing it anyway).


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## Graf (Dec 31, 2007)

*Where we stand*

Weird double post


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## Graf (Dec 31, 2007)

I should be caught up on all threads, email and have a response for every post/player (though Biggs is sorta kinda not really anything.)

Here's how I see things
*Beth* and *Diego* are "live".
*Biggs* is close to being live (he's downstairs in the mansion, working on getting out of the coffin tied up). Those threads (including the last NPC conversation I hope to inflict on people for a good period of time).

*Ash* is actually shrodenger's cat right now. She could be active at one of several different points depending on what Ashburn feels like.

*Jemal's character* (name slipping my mind now) is the other "gentleman" in the coffin. Unlike Biggs he's still staked. Once we finish up one or two details on his character we should be good to go and he'll be unstaked.

*Cole* and *Archer* are still technically in Prelude-land. 
*Archer's* maybe two posts out? (one? sorta depends). 
*Cole* is so far out that I'm inclined to just let it slide and move what would have been part of his prelude into the "main game". Or we can run the prelude and have him participate at the same time.
*They will join the main thread once a "triggering event" happens.*

Anyway, characters who are live (hopefully everyone soon) are free to do what they like.
I'll pop in once a day or so to fulfill any STing requirements, work new characters in, and so forth.

Right now though I'm going to sleep. 
Have a good New Years all!


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## industrygothica (Dec 31, 2007)

Don't mind me - just posting to get the auto-subscribe going.


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## Graf (Jan 2, 2008)

*Condition Tracker*

OK. Everyone (but Jemal, because I'm behind on adding his stats) is now on the Condition Tracker.
This represents the 'state of your character'. Eventually (to my eternal horror I'm sure) we'll wind up producing one of these a round (in combat).
Please take a moment to *check *that I've put the data in for your character correctly. Also, if there's something important that we *should be tracking that isn't on the sheet  please let me know*.

Right now *everyone has 5 blood* (an arbitrarily chosen level) and *one-less-willpower-point-than-your-maximum* (so you'll derive benefit from acting out vices and virtues).


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## Graf (Jan 2, 2008)

*General posting format*

My preference for posting from PCs is something like this.

Post IC and IC-related-OOC in the IC thread.
So IC actions/etc goes in the main body of the thread and the OOC stuff goes in a spoiler block.

[sblock=Explanation]
My preference is to have OOC stuff that's tightly linked to specific character actions near to the IC action it's related to. So if you can do that it'll be easier for me, and also for other people, to figure out what you're doing.[/sblock]

Everything else goes in the OOC thread.

Example


			
				sample PC post said:
			
		

> IC thread
> Beth screams "Your reign of terror is over!", pulls out her tommy gun and blasts LB in front of the assembled vampires of the city.
> 
> [sblock=OOC Action]
> ...




Note: I'll sometimes take liberties with the format when I post. And people are free to develop their own variations.

Again there are other ways of doing it. This is really just a preference on my part.


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## Graf (Jan 2, 2008)

*Modifying Rolls*

So in our sample character action (the post above) Beth was attacking LB with a Tommy gun. And rolled her own dice.

[sblock=Invisible Castle roll format]
Use the IC Die Roller

--Character Name: [VtR] CharName
_My preferences is that you use the name I've been using for you (e.g. Judas Archer is [VtR] Archer). Don't sweat it if something else winds up in there._
--Campaign: Born into Darkness_
Can't search by campaign yet, but you will be able to soon. Once we have that it'll be less trouble setting up "codes" for the games like [VtR] in the character names field._
--Number of Rolls: 1
--Dice: xd10.hitsopen(8,10)
_Just put in the number of dice that you're rolling in the format above (i.e. in place of the *x*). There is an explanation of_hitsopen_ further down the page and also here (uses Shadowrun as an example but same principal for White Wolf's System)_http://invisiblecastle.com/mods/forum/thread/3/.
[/sblock]

You don't have to roll but you're welcome to (and it can help with character actions... if you miss or hit or whatever then it's easier for you to incorporate that into the actions).

However, obviously just because you roll 18 dice doesn't mean you have 18 dice.
In this case Beth's player believes they have 18 but they could have less (or more).

To continue using the example:
Defense doesn't apply to firearms attacks, unless the person is within "melee range"., if I, as the DM decide that LB is right next to Beth she has _less dice_.

Likewise if LB has Celerity he can "retroactively" spend a blood point to trigger his Celerity. In this case Beth would also have _less dice_. Though it doesn't apply in this situation you can do a similar thing in some cases with Willpower (spending a willpower point to increase resistance attributes (e.g. Resolve) to fight off certain powers (e.g. Dominate)).

If LB is facing away from Beth, or there are other *situational factors* there could be _more or less dice_. There are lots of other possibilities, I'll stop here though. I think people get the point.

It's also possible that actions could be _pending_. 
Example: Pulling out a gun and firing is -generally- two actions. Pulling out a gun is one action, pointing and firing another. So in game terms Beth's first action "pulling out a gun" has occurred and the second one hasn't. So some actions could occur between when Beth started to attack LB and she actually got the gun out and shot him.
*Generally we'll use the same roll, unless the situation has changed radically.*​
In cases where there are net _less dice_ dice will be *removed from the right hand side*. In this case I'll decide that LB burns for Celerity **** and Beth 'loses' four dice. So Beth's four most rightward die rolls (9,9,2,8) will be removed giving her 6 successes instead of 9.
If there are net _more dice_ I'll make a *new roll for the additional dice ONLY*. So you keep your roll with the extra dice I supply.

Simple right?

Same thing for PCs. (Obviously there is some potential for abuse, but I think we'll just cross that bridge when we come to it).


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## Graf (Jan 2, 2008)

And we have the last NPC on NPC conversation  I plan on having for a good long time. (if for not other reason than the color tags make me crazy). 

Biggs is now basically active (in so far as being chained up in a coffin with only an arm free is "active").


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## Festy_Dog (Jan 2, 2008)

Only, I think the conversation between Nice and Oscar took place in house's basement, before any of the other PCs arrived, well, except Biggs who was the one witnessing it.



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> Then Nice stops. He freezes for a minute, head cocked to one side.
> "Nobody supposed to be here yet." He sets the crowbar down on a table and heads out of the room.




I think it's at that point that Nice goes upstairs to find Beth, and then Diego.


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## Graf (Jan 2, 2008)

Festy_Dog said:
			
		

> Only, I think the conversation between Nice and Oscar took place in house's basement, before any of the other PCs arrived, well, except Biggs who was the one witnessing it.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's at that point that Nice goes upstairs to find Beth, and then Diego.



 exactly right

Sorry. It wasn't supposed to be incomprehensibly artsy.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 2, 2008)

Had me confused. I thought they just kinda popped up. I haven't been following all the preludes.


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## Festy_Dog (Jan 2, 2008)

Graf, before the game starts gathering momentum, would you mind if I changed Archer's pistol specialty into something else? 

I've been thinking it over and I'm not sure, given the amount of training he's had, whether he'd have time and tutoring to specialize in one thing over everything else when it comes to firearms. Instead of the pistol specialty I'm intending on having him take another specialty in his mental skills. The 'solving enigmas' specialty for investigation feels appropriate.

Your opinion?


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## Bloodweaver1 (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm still here, just getting back from the hospital. 
I will try to catch up with a post shortly. Recovering from sugery sucks. 


-Blood


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## Graf (Jan 3, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> Had me confused. I thought they just kinda popped up. I haven't been following all the preludes.



Yeah. Sorry. Like I said I'm new to the online STing thing.
I will try to put location info into my posts from now on.



			
				Festy_Dog said:
			
		

> The 'solving enigmas' specialty for investigation feels appropriate.
> 
> Your opinion?



Sounds brilliant. Will change sheet.



			
				Bloodweaver1 said:
			
		

> I'm still here, just getting back from the hospital.
> I will try to catch up with a post shortly. Recovering from sugery sucks.



That sounds terrible.
Hope things are better.
Sleep/rest first, post as you are able.


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## industrygothica (Jan 3, 2008)

Realizing now that I screwed up a bit.  IC I said that Beth was 19, but she's actually 17.  I suppose we can change one or the other; it's really not that big of a deal... or we can just call her confused for the moment, or whatever.  Just thought I'd bring it up to you. 

Also, Graf, did you get my email concerning Beth's disciplines?


-IG


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## Graf (Jan 3, 2008)

I had completely missed the email. Thanks for the heads up. Responding now.

Teens lie about their age reflexively. So unless you think beth really would have been honest I'm inclined to just say that you said 19 instead of 17.

I had very much seen your character as being youngish (i.e. closer to 15). No real reason.
17 is basically "an adult". (if you think about how age has been viewed in human society historically). It's unlikely to come up as a plot point at all if you're 17.

If you were younger it would be remarked upon. And have repercussions. But nothing negative or serious (for Beth anyway).


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## Graf (Jan 3, 2008)

*Where we stand*

The long suffering Biggs joins Beth & Diego in the "live zone". Nice will (probably) speak less now.

Archer and Cole are pseudo-live. They can interact with each other (meeting for the first time substantially) and take actions. My -presumption- is that they will go down and get into the car and head to Blackcoats. However other possibilities do, of course, exist.

Jemal is basically ready once he's finalized a few essential details about James (read: clan). I'm toying with how to easily integrate him into the action, but a lot depends on timing.

Ash has actually dropped. Unfortunate but very understandable. He (the player) or she (the character) may return in some form in the future (possibly the near future depending on which way things go).


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## Graf (Jan 4, 2008)

I will be delayed or prevented from posting extensively today by work/etc commitments.

Which is fine, since you don't need me really.
I'll see if I can update Biggs if as he pokes around the house but everyone else doesn't (I think) require any ST intervention.

Nice isn't so chatty, (read: is staring off into space watching Diego/Beth). If you don't say anything he doesn't say anything.

Archer/Cole can transition themselves down to the waiting car and off to the mansion. (conveniently there are two elevators coming up to this floor, because LB did just lose it on the way down and it's not operative anymore).


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## Graf (Jan 4, 2008)

OK. Got about an hour. Need to address something related to Cole's prelude.

Basically I'm gonna stop it. Because the same information is about to come up in character with Archer. I'd have to "Pause" that section to try to run Cole. Which would be weird.

Instead we'll just merge it with the existing game stream (i.e. feed info to Archer).

Blood, sorry I didn't email you. The email you gave me doesn't seem to work (or I have it down wrong or something).
Email me through EnWorld if you like; I'll be able to respond to that.


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## Graf (Jan 4, 2008)

*No such thing as an "early" post*

War just (indirectly) asked something I think is worth addressing (however briefly).

There is basically no such thing as posting "too early" in an online game (IMHO).
Example: When Diego first appeared on the thread his first post had him walk a half a klick up a hill past, two characters and do something (knock on the door).
He only did the first part of his posted action. Was his post bad? No, *it was great*. It told me what Only wanted Diego to do, how he did it, etc.

There is no real way that he could have known that Beth & Nice were in the way, etc. etc.

But giving me lots of info about what Diego wanted to do was perfect and if the plot had been "Diego walks up to the house, deals with a creepy butler and sits around for a half an hour" then it would have been a perfectly detailed (and we wouldn't have lost a day real time getting Diego to the important part of the story).

Likewise, it's entirely possible that (in the current combat) Biggs wouldn't have been surprised and won initiative. In that case it would have been great to know his intentions and War's post would have been "right on time".

So there's no such thing as "too early".

[sblock=Random Aside]
I'm getting a bit tired of all this Predator's Taint stuff though. Its a big part of playing the game I suppose, but with groups of more than a few people the odds are very high that someone is gonna fail. 
Still it encourage a degree of caution when meeting new vampires for the first time.[/sblock]


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## WarShrike (Jan 4, 2008)

So it's only the first time then? That's cool, i'd hate to have to check frenzy with my coterie every time i came back from taking a piss.


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## Graf (Jan 4, 2008)

Essentially correct. 

The predator's taint happens every time you see another vamp. It's like auto-detect for vamps. But you only check for frenzy the 1st time. After that your Beast knows their Beast so to say and you both snarl and move on. 

Obfuscate ** blocks this. You can't ID other vamps on sight and they don't trigger frenzy. 

And if their blood potency is higher than yours you fight a fear frenzy instead. 
(unless you have Protean *, I think)


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## Graf (Jan 4, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> So it's only the first time then? That's cool, i'd hate to have to check frenzy with my coterie every time i came back from taking a piss.



 That would actually be kind of funny. 
For a one - shot. 
A short one-shot.


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## Vanifae (Jan 4, 2008)

Vampire is always a good time.


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## industrygothica (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm a little confused now, and don't want to post until I understand better.  Since Beth is in a frenzy, am I supposed to post for her, or are you going to take her through the frenzy and then give her back to me?


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## Graf (Jan 5, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> I'm a little confused now, and don't want to post until I understand better.  Since Beth is in a frenzy, am I supposed to post for her, or are you going to take her through the frenzy and then give her back to me?



 Basically the latter.

Hopefully the OOC post in the other thread can help clear up why. (i.e. because it makes the difference between "riding the wave" and completely succumbing more distinct).

Plus, you know, in frenzy you don't really get any say, or the ST has total veto power, so it seems somewhat cruel/dumb to say "sure you can post, but you have to post whatever I decide".

Oh and if somebody frenzies and attacks another player it's more 'clear' that it's an involuntary action if I'm posting.

We're just waiting for Diego now really. Because I have no idea whether he'd be gettin popcorn to watch or jumping in to help/hinder someone.


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## industrygothica (Jan 5, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Basically the latter.
> 
> Hopefully the OOC post in the other thread can help clear up why. (i.e. because it makes the difference between "riding the wave" and completely succumbing more distinct).
> 
> ...





That's about what I figured - I suppose my real question was, "If you're taking control, when are you gonna tell me what she does?"  But you answered that one too, so I'll sit back patiently and wait..   Thanks.


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## Graf (Jan 5, 2008)

Right yah you'd be wanting that info. 

I'll get it explained IC soon.


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## Graf (Jan 5, 2008)

Ok. If there's nothing from Only by tomorrow I'll invoke the 24 hour rule. 
There's nothing wrong with that btw. People get busy, it's just an online game.

There are just situations where I feel that "the right to have input is trumped by expediency"

Plus I haven't got a valid email for Only.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Jan 5, 2008)

My E-mail: rikus01 (at) yahoo (dot) com

-Blood


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## Graf (Jan 7, 2008)

*Did you get your attribute bump?*

All vampires get an extra dot of an attribute.
It's defined by clan (you get one of two choices).

It occurs to me that at least a few people haven't picked theirs up yet.
If you haven't please let me know.


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## WarShrike (Jan 7, 2008)

Please add * to my stamina, should read *** now. Thanks.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Jan 7, 2008)

Cole Braddock is good to go. 


-Blood


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## Bloodweaver1 (Jan 7, 2008)

I will post a response for Cole tomorrow. 
Sorry for the hold up. 


-Blood


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## Graf (Jan 8, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> Please add * to my stamina, should read *** now. Thanks.



 Reflected in the condition tracker and on the character thread. Can I say that I'm irrationally pleased that everyone in the group now doesn't have the same number of health levels. (6 characters everyone had 7... it was kinda weird)


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## Graf (Jan 8, 2008)

Bloodweaver1 said:
			
		

> I will post a response for Cole tomorrow.
> Sorry for the hold up.
> 
> 
> -Blood



 Obviously I encourage posting, but I think you guys are doing great.


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## Graf (Jan 8, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Beth and Diego stand quietly.



This isn't btw meant to be any sort of instruction. It's just where I see things being in my minds eye.
(I should probably have written something like "Beth and Diego stand quietly after the announcement that she knows the new arrival".)


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## Graf (Jan 8, 2008)

The most recent post is not intended to cut off possible reactions to 
Beth saying she knows Biggs (if there are going to be any)
Diego asking Beth a question
Biggs returning to the conversation.

Just roleplay them out as you see fit and once you've finished Nice will pick up with his little spiel.


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## industrygothica (Jan 10, 2008)

For flavor...






Credit forhaud​


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## Graf (Jan 11, 2008)

Great Picture.
(It may be my sleep deprived state but I felt really bad for the teddybear... missing his eyes no?)

I've been thinking about this for a while and I think I'd like to give an *xp to people for getting character portraits*. Photos, drawings, whatever. I'll try to drop in mentions of character's key appearance details (Biggs' height, Archer's throat wrappings, etc) but pictures are worth a 1000 and all that.

Also, *if you catch me making a serious rules mistake I'll give an xp*. (Lots of reasons for this, but the biggest is that I think it'll improve game quality).
In that vein there is one XP for anyone who can identify the two rules mistakes I made during the frenzy scene outside the mansion.

[not that we're at the point where people can spend xp yet; though I suppose, since the characters are still fairly undefined, you could just squeeze it into your background...
I just remembered... I speak russian!]


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## Graf (Jan 11, 2008)

*Why do you keep making all these "social rolls"*

I blame Bioware.

Seriously. Combat related rolls get made all the time in games. But social stuff is much more uncommon. Which penalizes people for having social scores (effectively). Naturally I'm not going to roll for PC on PC stuff (it never really works anyway).
But one way to reward people is to let them roll vs NPCs and get information.

Much like Bioware does in their games, the people with higher social scores get more and better choices for how to interact.
In theory this should make them "better with people" in general (even if the intergroup interaction doesn't support their relatively superior scores).

I am having similar thoughts about mentals. But we aren't at a point where serious thinking is going on yet.


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## Graf (Jan 11, 2008)

*Wits vs. Manipulation*

Arguably, from looking at the book, "reading" a scene and so forth should probably be Wits + Empathy.

My policy now is to use Manipulation + Empathy. Why?

I'd rather use Social Attributes for social rolls (i.e. there might be a situation where an academic uses Int + Presence to convince another academic of something but generally socail stuff should be social).
Manipulation doesn't do anything. Wits is already a good stat that effects combat.
If Presence is convincing someone to do something through social strength (raw charisma) then Manipulation is, to my mind, figuring out what that person wants (or thinks they want) and then trying to make them think you're going to give it to them. I.e. if you can manipulate someone then you know what they want.

I'll hear arguments for and against of course. If there are any. Conveniently, characters with high Wits seem to have Manipulation within a dot of the Wits. Making this a fairly academic discussion.


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## Graf (Jan 11, 2008)

Want to give "team freezer" a chance to do stuff if they're inclined. Will post again tonight or tomorrow.


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## industrygothica (Jan 11, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Great Picture.
> (It may be my sleep deprived state but I felt really bad for the teddybear... missing his eyes no?)




I hadn't really payed it much attention, but yes, it appears to have a safety pin shoved through its eye.  Tragic indeed. 



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> Also, *if you catch me making a serious rules mistake I'll give an xp*. (Lots of reasons for this, but the biggest is that I think it'll improve game quality).
> In that vein there is one XP for anyone who can identify the two rules mistakes I made during the frenzy scene outside the mansion.




Fat chance of that happening for me.  Rules are beyond me in this game; I'll just have to trust you.   I'm sure I'll get more familiar with them as time moves on.


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## industrygothica (Jan 12, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> I'm on the road right now so I can't link effectively. All these rolls are on invisible castle under [VTR] Predator's Taint.
> 
> Anyway things are a mess right now.
> Cole is frenzying at Beth. Beth at Archer. Biggs at Cole.
> ...




Not sure of the rules here, and it's probably easier to ask than to look it up at this point:  What exactly does it mean to spend a willpower point? Obvious advantage is that it gives you extra dice.  What are the drawbacks, and are they permanent?

Sorry for being stupid.


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## Festy_Dog (Jan 12, 2008)

You have at your disposal a number of willpower points which cap out at equal to your willpower score (equal to your resolve + composure). Presently I think everyone has their willpower -1 in willpower points.

There are no drawbacks to using them beyond having one less willpower point, and you earn them back by completing character goals, and acting on your virtue/vice. More or less like WoD's own kind of action points.

Spending willpower dots reduces your maximum willpower as you're burning your actual willpower stat, it's different to spending points and it's the one with the big drawback that you might have been thinking of. It's applications are limited though. I think one scenario that requires it is in the creation of childer.


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## Graf (Jan 12, 2008)

what festy said basically. 
Its like action points (or vitae/blood points really). It's resource management. If you're ever curious about how much blood / will you have just check out the condition tracker spread sheet on the character page. 

Honesty since you get back one a night plus others from vices and virtue its not huge... But beth doesn't have a lot, and it's a bit of a negative choice... Nothing interesting happens because you don't frenzy. 

I'm not loving how predators taint is working right now.


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## Graf (Jan 12, 2008)

I've made a command decision. I'm not changing how P's T works yet but I think we've had enough for now.


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## industrygothica (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks for the heads up.  I think I'll keep the willpower point and see what happens with the frenzy.  I get the feeling she's going to be doing a lot of that.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Jan 13, 2008)

I did not realize that you had created your own RG thread until just now. After shifting through it I saw that my last update to Cole Braddock did not make it. 

Here is the lastest update
Compared to your lasted edition 

Hopefully the changes would not have changed anything. 

-Blood


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## Graf (Jan 13, 2008)

it doesn't look like you've changed too much. And its still early days so I'm fine with changes. 
Where did striking looks come from? How are your looks striking?
(I'll try to take another look at the sheet. If its on there I'll find it then so don't worry about it,)

Yeah for the record the master character thread is what's used for the game...
I'm pretty fine with changes but I want to know about them and have a chance to discuss what's being changed and why.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Jan 13, 2008)

I do not know what book it comes from as I found a list of merits on the web. I do know that it is a 2 or 4 dot merit. I am guessing the 2 dots is very good looking and 4 dots down right gorgous. 

I thought the merit would go well with his 'people person' personality and skills. What a better way to diffuse a situation than with a charming smile and areasuring wink. 

-Blood


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## Graf (Jan 14, 2008)

It comes from Core; I have no problems with it.

Of course. It works well socially.

Usually striking looks are "striking" in some fashion. I.e. For example, Ash (who is no longer with us), has striking looks. When we discussed it Ash's player and I agreed that she was tall, rail-thin with natty-hair that almost looks like it moves.
The player had in mind the idea that she looks almost like a Medusa.
It's not just being good looking.... there's something -else- something that draws the eye.

Giselle, also has striking looks **. 
I've tried not to go into intense detail (cause I write long already) but I think you did a great job of picking up on that. There's supposed to something, alluring, above and beyond being "attractive", about her. But it's also, at least in my mind, specific. She's got intense green eyes.

One of the Nosferatu, Sicko (who you haven't met yet), has striking looks ****. He -so- good looking, so polished in appearance that he seems inhuman. Film come to life. (Not that  
It's a case where his Nosferatu weakness (the creepiness) mixes with a merit to produce a specific effect.

Basically, striking looks is a way to give your character something unusual, specific. It gives players and NPCs another tool to use in interacting with you.

Also, see next post


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## Graf (Jan 14, 2008)

From the IC thread


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> *Biggs* turns to *Nice* but he has stepped away from the group and is on the phone.
> What do you mean it's missing? he's saying into the receiver



I'm not trying to shut down interaction with these sorts of responses. There are really two factors at work

1. The players, despite playing for weeks, haven't actually had a chance to interact. I'm keen to see interaction occurring. Give the group time to coalesce, etc etc.

I had the phone ring when it did to avoid prejudicing the initial meeting of the group. (Does that make sense?)

2. Obviously, I do want there to be a sense of "development", an awareness that the story is unfolding (even if what's happening is just some NPC talking to some other NPC on the phone).


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## Graf (Jan 14, 2008)

*What's the big deal about Merits?*

Merits are a finite thing. Especially in a game where everyone starts off at "neonate" level without extra xp.

So if someone takes common sense, edictic memory, or striking looks then that's something unique about the character that only they have. You've given up other options to take those traits, and I want to respect that.

Not that I'll always succeed but if you've got something like that (particularly something where the combat utility is low like edictic memory) I'll try to work in scenes where it's important/valuable useful.

Of course some stuff is just easier than others. In a game where memory loss is a factor having close to total recall (Beth) has the potential to be more important than having virtually complete understanding of firearms (Archer).

So if I'm asking questions it's usually so I can tease out what sort of story choices people are working on.

This isn't necessarily just true of merits. War is doing interesting stuff with Biggs' specialty. But Merits are "expensive" relative to other character choices so I feel like that requires a minimum amount of ST attention.
(not that I'm promising anything of course)


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## Graf (Jan 14, 2008)

*Auspex*

Normally in VtR when you use Auspex you have to "activate it". 
I.e. declare you're using it, what senses, etc etc

I've decided to reverse this (FOR AUSPEX * ONLY), for a lot of reasons, the biggest of which is just that it's not feasible in an online game to ask "do you have Auspex up" "do you have Auspex up" all the time.

So, my *default assumption is that you have Auspex * *up, all the time.
(You can tell me you're turning it down, or not using it of course. This is just my default assumption.)

So long as you have it up, of course, your senses can be overloaded (per VtR 119). Which sorta sucks, effectively you'd lose a turn if someone suddenly fired a gun next to you (if I understand how the power works anyway).
(For borderline cases I might give a roll)

Also, for situations where you're listening in in a social setting, be aware that the roll will usually include a subterfuge component (usually something like Wits+Subterfuge), to prevent people from noticing that you're distracted.

Do people (ie specifically ig and Festy since it affects their characters) think this is fair?


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## Graf (Jan 14, 2008)

War,

What Disciplines are you thinking about for Biggs?
Not that he's familiar with how they work yet, but I wanted to get the story moving towards his aquisition of them.

Given his personality, an instinctive use of at least Protean * is reasonable.
Thoughts?

Resilience is, naturally, the easiest to explain but the choice is ultimately all yours.


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## Festy_Dog (Jan 14, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> So, my default assumption is that you have Auspex * up, all the time.
> (You can tell me you're turning it down, or not using it of course. This is just my default assumption.)
> 
> So long as you have it up, of course, your senses can be overloaded (per VtR 119). Which sorta sucks, effectively you'd lose a turn if someone suddenly fired a gun next to you (if I understand how the power works anyway).
> ...




It's for the sake of convenience, so I have no qualms with it.


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## Graf (Jan 14, 2008)

*Feeding*

This is from an email with discussion where ig asked about how/whether feeding would be covered in the story.



			
				graf in an email said:
			
		

> I do have feeding "covered" so to speak in the story.
> 
> Generally speaking feeding is usually abstracted.
> Basically you make a roll (depending on "how" you're feeding what makes up your dice pool will change) modified by herd (a merit) and any other factors. This roll determines how many blood points you get for the evening.
> ...


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## Graf (Jan 16, 2008)

I've moved the scene. You are -free- not to get into the car/do something else btw.

This post was completely skitzo given that the car is bugged. Please forgive. 
I did this because teople are really doing fantastically at roleplaying and I didn't want to interrupt the conversation with mostly story-less conversation.
(i.e. The choices are basically go with Nice, argue with Nice, fight or go sit in the cells in the basement for the night. 
Conversations with Nice aren't interesting, I'm assuming nobody really wants to fight and sitting the cells isn't particularly interesting either).

So feel free to continue the conversation in the car but obviously if people want to do something else that's cool as well.


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## WarShrike (Jan 16, 2008)

The car is bugged?


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## Graf (Jan 17, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> The car is bugged?



 To be precise.

Diego has indicated he thinks the car is bugged.
He could be lying....
How your characters react is your own business.

As an OOC statement:
He's noticed that the speaker system is set up "funny". (Funny as in someone has put the speakers in places where they would act better as microphones.)

He can't tell whether it's on though, just that the car has a very well disguised system that allows recording.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 17, 2008)

lol didn't mean to cause issues. Just thought that Diego would probably find it benefical in the long run to make friends at the start. If that means dropping a couple of hints he picks up on, so be it


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## Graf (Jan 17, 2008)

OK. I've made a bit of a decision to "speed up" the action.

I guess the reason is that stuff like this has the potential to "drag" on for a bit. If an NPC does something interest a "reaction shot" or two can be fun. But day after day of reaction shots isn't really what the game is supposed to be about.

Do fee free to jump in at any time. I'll edit the scenes to add actions/events where they need to happen. As I did in this post with Biggs question.


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## Graf (Jan 17, 2008)

busy for a bit now actually
should post again within 6-12 hours.


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## WarShrike (Jan 17, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> This post was completely skitzo given that the car is bugged. Please forgive.




This is what i was refering to.


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## Graf (Jan 17, 2008)

I plead stupidity.

I was really pleased with the groups interaction. And tried to get everyone out to the car in one post.

And then once that post happened I remembered some details about the car and that Diego hasn't had a chance to show off his facility in various areas yet.

It took my brain a while (12hours?) to cycle and realize that I'd contradicted myself. Sorry if that generated confusion/disrupted roleplaying.

There will be more chances for unfettered group interaction tomorrow night.


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## Graf (Jan 18, 2008)

*Time in the limelight*

I thought I would briefly note that Beth getting a lot of "story" interaction right now.

I think I may have addressed this at some point earlier when I was discussing preludes but people who forgo (or mostly forwent) preludes didn't really "lose out" on the prelude story stuff it just got shifted around.

The intent is not to give some anyone a lot more "stuff" than anyone else, but partially for story reasons and partially for my 'brainspace' reasons the stuff comes out in 'lumps'.

The Beth lumps are coming out now.

What about Diego, who didn't get so much as a cameo in a prelude (a person could reasonably ask)?
If things go as planned he'll have plenty of stuff too. It's just not coming out on the first night.


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## Graf (Jan 18, 2008)

*What's with this brother stuff?*

In the interest of cutting off any misunderstandings: Nice's recent "brother" line doesn't refer to his race (I don't actually know what race he, or any of the other characters are -- I don't think anyone's specified; though Beth's picture is of a white person.)

It hasn't been explained properly to the group what the "Brotherhood" refers to, but hints of it were given here.
(Not that it's really much of a secret or anything; Diego will probably find out in the next 24 hours)

Of course, if Diego -is- dark skinned that would demonstrate a degree of social tone deafness on Nice's part.


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## Graf (Jan 18, 2008)

So the original plan was for Jemal to play a ghoul who knew how disciplines and so forth would work. So we'd have player character interaction and discovering the world and so forth all wrapped together.
Unfortunately he's apparently dropped; by default explaining all that falls to Nice (though Cole, or to a lesser degree Archer, could do some explaining too).

Unfortunately Nice is falling victim to my desire to 'show' story points as opposed to 'tell'.

Nice was actually originally several characters, but I realized I didn't want to have a bunch of NPCs running around the first nights, so he's absorbed all the necessary traits to offer requierd story effects.

I've put out a chunk of story, and I want to give people time to react and roleplay.

The next post (probably in ~24 hours?) will include a IC explanation of discplines, vampire mechanics, etc.


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## Graf (Jan 18, 2008)

*Who has what disciplines now*

Archer
The two dots of auspex (I think, he got aura reading during his prison sentence)
I think he hasn't used Celerity, he'll automatically pick it up (1. if it seems like he would or 2. whenever Beth triggers hers around him the first time)
Archer has Obf... and I have rocks in my head. 
(Obf will show up the same time as Beths does probably)

Beth
Celerity and Auspex
Obfuscate will show up but timing is slightly unclear.

Biggs
Nada yet (except for Protean * if you're taking it) -- Need to work on this

Cole
All three

Diego
All three (I assume -- The "ugly" thing was a reference to Nightmare, no?)


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 18, 2008)

Yeah, well...... that and just the typical clan traits. So am I reading your last post right, and we are all putting 1 dot into each discipline? (no problems with it, I understand why, just checking)?


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## Graf (Jan 18, 2008)

Only,
Understood Re: Clan traits.

No. People are free to allocate dots however they like.

Archer has two dots in Auspex for instance.
Beth was -originally- going to have a different spread but ig decided that she would take one of each (to reflect her not having had a chance to develop any one discipline very deeply).

You've got all three of your dots (Nightmare ** and Obf *) if you want. You recall Vanderchild teaching them to you.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 18, 2008)

Doesn't matter to me at all. Put em wherever you want, whatever fits the story.


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## Graf (Jan 18, 2008)

Nightmare ** works well for the story. It can be slightly tricky to use effectively but it is powerful. And it builds toward *** which is one of the few "instant fight winner" vampire social powers.

And since it's only-in clan for Nosferatu it's definitely a skill set that the group would otherwise lack.

Obfuscate works well too of course. With * (and strong larceny) you can carry around guns with impunity (more or less). And it builds toward **, which can be very useful if the other vampires of the city don't know you on sight, and ***, which is arguably one of the most singularly useful abilities in the game.

So barring feedback to the contrary I'm inclined to stick with your original choices.


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## WarShrike (Jan 19, 2008)

I was unaware at creation the we could put more than * in a discipline. In other words, i thought we had to choose 3 disciplines. Seeing that that was a faulty belief, i want to change mine.

I'd like to go Protean ***

But if that's too much in your opinion, then i'd take:
Protean **
Animalism *

So... ?


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## Graf (Jan 19, 2008)

disciplines more than almost anything else get to the root of the sort of vampire you want to play. 
Plowing all three dots in one discipline is a perfectly valid choice. 
(Nice is an npc version of that basically)

Of course the ability to do agg damage with your bare hands isnt something that will be overlooked by vampires who know about it. 

It will probably take a few days in game time to get that third dot rolled out. I can only think of two people who know the power and neither uses it frequently. (the regular appearance of hideous unhealing wounds being, while not a breach, a bit of an attention getter)


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## WarShrike (Jan 19, 2008)

The claws are less of an issue for Biggs, but Skyler would have been in vampire heaven. Take your time working it in, i wouldn't wanna grow claws in public.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 19, 2008)

Put my dis. anywhere you want. I can roll with it. Heck, if you wanna put all 3 into Nightmare that would work. Actually.....anything but vigor. I'm not ready for that one yet.


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## Graf (Jan 19, 2008)

Generally speaking most of the one and two dot powers are useful but not awesome (OK Auspex ** is actually pretty remarkable; Archer hasn't started using it yet, but if you get a good dice pool you can pick up a lot of information).

Almost all of the disciplines start to get "significantly powerful" around ***. An ST needs to keep in mind what three dot powers are around when setting up a scene. By the time people get to ***** dots the whole campaign is impacted.

With Diego having Obfuscate feeds into the "thief" thing. I'll think if there are any more interesting story angles.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Jan 19, 2008)

I know I read a rule somewhere in the vampire creation section that states that newly created vampires must place at least one dot in any two of their clan disciplines. I think that is to prevent three dot focused neonates. I believe one can get more than three beginning dots but one has to spend freebie points to get it. 


Also I was wondering if Cole and possibly Archer would have more than five blood points. My thought process is that they had permission to feed Princes’ herd so they could fill up their tanks. So to speak. 


-Blood


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## WarShrike (Jan 20, 2008)

I remember reading that too. So Protean **, Animalism * it is.

And for the record, Protean ** kicks a$$.


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## doghead (Jan 20, 2008)

Just finished reading through the IC thread. I hope that you don't mind. I really like the way the game is playing out - nice work by everyone. It was a good read. So I just thought I would drop in a say so.

doghead
aka thotd


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## industrygothica (Jan 20, 2008)

doghead said:
			
		

> Just finished reading through the IC thread. I hope that you don't mind. I really like the way the game is playing out - nice work by everyone. It was a good read. So I just thought I would drop in a say so.
> 
> doghead
> aka thotd




Thank you... thank you very much.   I guess it's time to turn it up a bit now that we're playing for an audience, eh?


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## Festy_Dog (Jan 20, 2008)

doghead said:
			
		

> Just finished reading through the IC thread. I hope that you don't mind. I really like the way the game is playing out - nice work by everyone. It was a good read. So I just thought I would drop in a say so.
> 
> doghead
> aka thotd




Many thanks, doghead. 

If I remember correctly, dropping into the OOC thread for 'A Casual Game of D&D' to compliment the story was what got me invited into that game.  

We're down a couple of players, and you seem to like where the game is going, so perhaps Graf may be inclined to extend an invitation. Assuming though that he doesn't have enough on his plate within this game already. 

Thoughts, Graf?


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## Graf (Jan 21, 2008)

Blood,

Thanks for picking that up!



			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> I remember reading that too. So Protean **, Animalism * it is.



Got it.



			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> And for the record, Protean ** kicks a$$.



Granted.
In a game like ours it has the potential to be pretty important. 
In most games, where the vampires start off more established, it's more of a special effect (the Ventrue lives in a penthouse, the Nos lives in a sewer and the Gangrel can sleep in the park without being molested)


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 21, 2008)

Blood, you start with 3 disc dots. According to what I've read in the book (and it's written on the character sheets I believe) is that 2 dots must be from In-Clan disc. I haven't read anything about putting all 3 into one though. I think it's mostly to prevent people from saying "I'm a Ventrue, but have Nightmare, Dominate, and Protean."


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## Graf (Jan 21, 2008)

*Adding new players*



			
				Festy_Dog said:
			
		

> We're down a couple of players, and you seem to like where the game is going, so perhaps Graf may be inclined to extend an invitation. Assuming though that he doesn't have enough on his plate within this game already.
> 
> Thoughts, Graf?



We are "down" two. On the other hand I'd like to get a bit more established before adding any new elements. 

If Doghead is inclined s/he can pick up either of the "dropped PCs" characters.

Welcome to change either of them provided certain key attributes are kept.

Ash is a total vacuum, she recalls nothing for the past 10 years when she was a gang leader and ran her own bar. 
She also apparently isn't any older than she was when her "lost time" starts.
She's hideously scarred, knows Cruac, but doesn't know why.

James Cale was a successful lawyer until his wife and unborn child were killed horribly. Obsessively driven to uncover the truth he was eventually picked up as a vampire's "research ghoul". He's dreamed of becoming a vampire and gaining all the power that entails, but his sire refused him until recently.

Stats, clan, etc. can all be changed. This is (something) of a limited time offer since, once they get woken up the characters start to become "fixed".

(And when I say fixed I mean become "NPCs that are easy for me to run", which may be synonymous with "not very much fun to play")


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## Graf (Jan 21, 2008)

Bloodweaver1 said:
			
		

> Also I was wondering if Cole and possibly Archer would have more than five blood points. My thought process is that they had permission to feed Princes’ herd so they could fill up their tanks. So to speak.




I see your point, but I'd like everyone to be at the same level at the start of the game. Cole has some intangible advantages as a result of his position already I wouldn't want to add to them.

In terms of the story explanation.
You only get to feed on the reserve every few days. The last few days, as neonates have started to pop up, you're feeding time was put off. You were due to go the day before Night 1 (the game start) but it got put off, and then this night you and Archer were told to come here.

LB's thoughtfulness can be a fickle thing.​


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## Graf (Jan 21, 2008)

*ST spending Willpower for PCs*

I won't generally spend Willpower points on "PCs behalf" without asking but....


Cole specifically told Biggs it would require an act of will (which seems like awareness of that in the PCs behavior. If the PCs are exerting themselves like that it seems a Willpower point spending would be understood).
This is basically the last scene of the night; you'll have another Willpower point tomorrow night
A general desire to keep the game rolling along (and validate PCs actions)

If that bothers people just let me know. I'll put a hold on your character so you don't spend willpower without explicit permission.


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## Graf (Jan 21, 2008)

Blood,

I think the discipline thing counts as a signficant ST mistake. In the spirit of encouraging me to follow the rules that's worth one xp.

The offer of an xp for PC pictures remains open. (ig's got one for Beth's picture)

The earlier mistakes I'd referred to (the one in the frenzy fight outside of the mansion) were 

Diego rolled a chance die, and I gave him a success on an 8. Chance die only generate successes on 10s. (and there is no 10 again rule I think)
Since he has no brawl I had him at -3; but only mental skills default to -3 everything else is -1

Today is busy. Going to drop off for a bit. 
Unless another significant story development happens (which I encourage of course) the next big ST post will move the PCs back to the mansion, and probably close out the evening.


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## doghead (Jan 21, 2008)

ooc - VtR

Normally I would jump at the chance to get into a vampire game, especially one as intriguing as this one. Taking an existing character would actually suit me fine. But I don't really know where I am going to be a few months. It may be still here. But I just don't know. At the moment, however, it is more likely that I am going to have to step out of my games than step up to new ones.

But thanks for the offer.

doghead
aka thotd


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## Bloodweaver1 (Jan 21, 2008)

Can I get an layout on what skills/abilities make up the dice pools for each level of Dominate? I am still a bit fuzzy on how that power is used, exactly. Thanks!


-Blood


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## Graf (Jan 22, 2008)

Blood, if you look at your character post I actually have notes for your three dominate powers at the top.

Also, still need to know what "Striking Looks" represents. See this post.


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## Graf (Jan 23, 2008)

*Varied Discipline Die Pools*

Blood,

Edited the character post slightly to make it clearer. 

The fastest, and possibly the most efficient way to increase your dominate pool for the first two powers is to raise your intelligence (which is your mental power stat).

In VtR (as opposed to earlier versions of the game) disciplines with dice pools are varied according to the power levels. While it's a bit frustrating for players I prefer this way because it means the pools are more varied.

I can have, for example, a vampire who's really good at affecting memories, but doesn't necessarily have an extremely powerful _command_ for instance.

Also, it gives certain interesting effects, a vampire with a high intimidate, for instance, is still going to find _command_, if they have it, attractive, because their _command _takes advantage of their intimidate skill.

Also, to a certain degree, it decreases the "magic" nature of things. It's not like there are vampire wizards who are really good at vampire magic, but vampires have "magic" that is tied to their personalities.

Of course, some people are good at everything, but that means they've spent a lot of time practicing all the different skills and attributes related to that discipline.
It also makes buying up normal attributes (instead of physical disciplines) somewhat more attractive than they would ordinarily be.


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## Graf (Jan 25, 2008)

*The Second Night -- what's going on*

So the first night saw lots of conversation interuptus.

The second night is less structured. The characters can interact, bond, attack and kill each other, what have you. No interruptions. 

Obviously I don't want to drag things out forever, but with the exception of Biggs nobody knows much of anything about anyone else so I think there is plenty of "grist" for conversation.

At some point Beth is going to get pulled out for a short scene, but given that everyone is down there for hours she can participate in conversations "at the same time" so to speak. (or not -- whatever seems like it's working)


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## Graf (Jan 29, 2008)

Basically the 2nd night was supposed to do the following things

1. Diego meets the Nosferatu; Diego resolves some issues about his sire (because everybody's been bitching at him about it, but he hasn't been able to do anything, this sort of situation has a limited shelf life)
2. Beth has a quick scene that establishes something about the city
3. The PCs get to know each other and establish an internal status quo.
4. There is a final scene...

I had set an internal time limit of around 3 days to wrap it up (maybe I should have mentioned it? but I wanted people to feel free to try different things without feeling time pressure -- if awesome stuff was happening I didn't want to interrupt it). 
Anyway my internal time limit approaches.

Since Diego apparently didn't have any disciplines after all (a good roleplaying choice for Only really; it's more fun to roleplay out) I think I'm going to just move things out of time sync. 

I'll leave it for 12 hours, just to give ig a chance to respond to people. 

Then I'll step up everything. 
*
Only,
You will be playing Diego at two different points in time for a while. I hope that's OK. 
Let me know if it isn't (we'll just summarize what happened quickly without roleplaying)

Everyone,
If there is something you want your character to have said to the other group members (sans Diego anyway) you may want to put it up within the next 24 hours or so.*


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 29, 2008)

Nah that's fine.


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## WarShrike (Jan 29, 2008)

VtR p.98 said:
			
		

> Christopher has three dots to spend on Disciplines, which he
> may spend in any way he chooses, provided at least two of his dots
> go to Mekhet clan Disciplines.




Seems Only was right after all. If it's ok, i'd like to go back to Protean *** plz.


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## Graf (Jan 30, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> Seems Only was right after all. If it's ok, i'd like to go back to Protean *** plz.



 Got it.


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## Graf (Jan 30, 2008)

Open Question:
Do people prefer having time for "reaction shots" or to basically just "skip to major decision choices?"

I've generally erred on the side of giving space for reaction shots because there -are- choices in them. Chances to 
set your character motivations, 
roleplay 
do something I don't expect

People could do things during the walk up to the conference room for instance.

Do people have preferences?

Since the game has been slow recently I'll try to keep pushing along relatively rapidly.


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## WarShrike (Jan 30, 2008)

I like reaction shots, but i don't want to slow stuff down for others either. For the walk up for instance, Biggs mentions he's thirsty and wouldn't mind a trip to the blood vault. Now he's not going to run over there on his own, and Blackcoat is with the group, so it's her call, and becomes part of your next post, one way or the other.


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## Graf (Jan 30, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Open Question:
> Do people prefer having time for "reaction shots" or to basically just "skip to major decision choices?"



I should say that I see this as being "railroady".


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## Graf (Feb 4, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> I like reaction shots, but i don't want to slow stuff down for others either. For the walk up for instance, Biggs mentions he's thirsty and wouldn't mind a trip to the blood vault. Now he's not going to run over there on his own, and Blackcoat is with the group, so it's her call, and becomes part of your next post, one way or the other.



I can appreciate that attitude.
Archer and Beth now know (or at least have heard that) the blood deliveries to the mansion have stopped, but there was no reason to know that then.

I've had the cow scene in mind for a while now. 
It fulfilled a lot of "needs" (getting characters acclimated to feeding, showing the effects of hunger frenzy, showing animalism, demonstrating where they stand in the vampire foodchain (yet again) and most importantly getting everyone full on blood.)


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## Graf (Feb 5, 2008)

*Self Directed Action*

The group has entered it's first real period of what I've been calling in my head "self-directed action".

I.e. you can do whatever you want.

My policy is that, for better or for worse, I'm not going to push people or ride people or anything else. Y'all can talk as much as you like and I won't push the story forward, insist people do something or anything else.

However, when moving in vehicles please remember the Riding in Cars post. (i.e. No driver, no movement -- anyone can drive, but it's got to be one person and they decide where the car goes)


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## Graf (Feb 5, 2008)

*Gun Laws in the City*

I'd assumed gun laws in the mid-west were relatively similar. It turns out they vary widely. I'm not really going to get into a complex analysis of the whole thing (especially since the game is set in the mid-1990s and most easily accessible stuff on the 'net is more recent).

Instead we'll go with the following (admittedly arbitrary) rules

[sblock=Rule Zero: The Nighttime Rule]So painful to say that you'd be justified in mocking me but: You can only buy stuff that would be available at night. 
It's fall in the American Midwest and sunset is around 17:30 (remember DST). 
That's the earliest a determined vampire could normally get up. And then you have to get out of the Tank, get a vehicle, and drive someplace to transact. With brilliant planning, the Tank door already being open and lots of rushing you could make it someplace nearby by 18:00 (6pm) more likely you're talking 18:30 or 19:00.[/sblock]

[sblock=Shotguns and hunting rifles]Available from Walmart (i.e. half an hours drive) but 5 day waiting period.[/sblock]

[sblock=Pistols]Require a license, assuming you have a viable identity (i.e. not Cole) and aren't a minor (Beth) you can get one. Beth could probably get one with parental permission (real or faked).[/sblock]

[sblock=Heavier stuff]I'd have to think about it, but it would require more time and/or the use of backgrounds (the right sort of Allies, Connections, good Streetwise rolls and or all of the above).[/sblock]

[sblock=Exotic Weaponry]Making a functional stake is a Crafts (as mental skill it defaults to -3)roll.
Anything fancier really depends again on what you're getting.[/sblock]

There are, of course, lots of ways to do these sorts of things. Plausible creative thinking may enable you to acquire something more easily than I would have thought (either as a one-off or a regular system).


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## Graf (Feb 7, 2008)

edit:Apparently I wasn't seeing posts people were making.


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## industrygothica (Feb 14, 2008)

Well, if there's anything I can say about my luck with dice, at least it's consistent!


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## WarShrike (Feb 14, 2008)

Biggs in the military. Took long enough, i find it hard to find suitable pics.


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## Graf (Feb 15, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> Well, if there's anything I can say about my luck with dice, at least it's consistent!



 It's one of those things that would be relatively obvious to the characters but much tougher for the players to figure out.

Fantastic picture War. I think we'll start handing out xp soon I need to establish something first.
(I use that line so often I should probably put in my sig...)


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## industrygothica (Feb 15, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> It's one of those things that would be relatively obvious to the characters but much tougher for the players to figure out.
> 
> Fantastic picture War. I think we'll start handing out xp soon I need to establish something first.
> (I use that line so often I should probably put in my sig...)




Damn those pesky equinoxes.


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## Graf (Feb 15, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> Damn those pesky equinoxes.



 Ah. No need to roll then.

I thought it would tricky since i've never (and don't ever intend to) specify an actual year beyond "some time in the 1990s".


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## industrygothica (Feb 15, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Ah. No need to roll then.
> 
> I thought it would tricky since i've never (and don't ever intend to) specify an actual year beyond "some time in the 1990s".




Google is our friend.  While Beth doesn't have access to it, I certainly do.


----------



## Graf (Feb 16, 2008)

ok. 
All that stuff involved research for me too.  
I don't want to making rolls for people that's supremely obvious.


----------



## Graf (Feb 18, 2008)

Here's the what's what.

*Q: Why were some of the combat rolls made -before- post that apparently triggered combat.**
A: *After Diego's first post I said to myself "OK. They'll respond with violence". So I sat down, wrote up a combat post, rolled all the fricking dice, started to adjudicate, etc. At one point during editing I re-read Diego's post and realized that maybe I'd mis-read Diego's post, maybe he didn't want to fight (he'd been fairly conservative, warning the group about Freeman's warning, trying to get out quickly, etc.), the rest of the group had made it pretty clear they didn't want violence (putting Cole out front, etc etc).

So I scrapped the post and left to go home.

Of course the next post from Only made it clear that he knew what he was doing was dangerous, but that he was dealing with the situation the way that he would in prison, etc.
(i.e. the original combat post was probably the situation after all).

But I wasn't fast posting the combat block and Cole and some other people posted too.

Which confirmed that at least some other members of the group wanted to try to talk their way out.

*Q: Why did Diego go in front of Cole**
A: * Even though Cole was obviously prepared to speak, there was nothing that prevented Diego from leaping out. Especially since he was just speaking a few words.

*Q: Why didn't Biggs?**
A: * His speech was a lot longer, it didn't' seem likely that if Cole's intent was to defuse the situation he'd let Biggs go on for too much longer.
And Biggs had initially seemed to indicate that he was willing to let Cole speak first (taking the gun and standing behind him, etc.).
Also, Biggs speech wasn't going to last very far before the fight happened. Even if he was talking fast words like "retard" aren't going to dissolve the tension.
(not that you have to dissolve the situation.... you are vampires, they are, or appear to be, human, I'm not asserting you have to be polite to your food)

*Q: Why did Cole jump initiative?**
A: * ST fiat.
If somebody gets ready to do an action then I want to respect that. 
Cole obviously was prepped to do something about the situation, he'd spent a post or two getting ready, etc.. I don't want to invalidate that preparation because he rolled at 2 on his init instead of a 7.

And I liked his speech. He correctly sussed out just how useless excessively dominated pawns can be (with no help from me).
As the only person with Dominate, and the only one of two people who'd interacted with these heavily dominated agents before and the oldest vampire it seemed like a good point to let him step up a bit.
Oh and he made a great roll to get the first ghoul from trying to maul Diego.

*Q: So you used the original numbers for the combat.**
A: * Yeah. The situation hadn't changed. 


*Q: If the goons go on a 12, and their first action is to grab people, why did Diego get grabbed earlier?**
A: * ST fiat.
But I will argue that it's just a "storytelling change" not an actual change.
It made more sense to me that the goon, who's right up in front of Diego, would get his hands on Diego sooner.
[sblock=Specifically]I.e. The goons go second, (after Beth).
It's unlikely that Beth is going to be able to stop the one going after Diego, she was in the back of the conflict when it started, Diego was in the front, she doesn't have a ranged weapon, or any kind of weapon, doesn't have much of a reason to help Diego particularly, etc).

Then the goons go, along with archer. But archer's only got a 12 because he's got CombatMarksmanship and a gun in hand. So his only choice, if he wants to go on a 12, is to shoot someone.
I didn't think, given that he's got a guy charging him he's going to shoot the goon next to Diego.

So, by the time that Diego would go he''ll be grappled by the goon no matter what. I just put it first because it made more story sense to me.

I could have made a surprise round with the goon going first, blah blah blah, but it was a lot of rolling, I don't think anyone was really surprised anyway, so this just made more sense.
[/sblock]


*Q: Some people (Beth) were skipped!**
A: * Reality is in flux! You can take actions retroactively. (see below)

*Q: How come we're all in the elevator**
A: * See above. You can take actions.

Character specific comments
Archer: I've already mentioned that not shooting will push your initiative down. Since you're high in the initiative order I'm assuming whatever you do you'll also turn down Auspex before the gunshots.

Beth: The <<you can take an action here>> is completely true.
You could take cover, grab one of the bags Archer's left on the floor (and _touch of shadow _ it if you wanted to), try to tackle one of the goons, or whatever you like. I'll happen before anyone else.

Biggs: Your statements did happen, if it's OK we'll just put it after Cole's (i'll move it in now). I hope that the explanations above make sense to you, if not let me know and we'll try to work something out.

Cole: Dominate is the bomb. But it's fiddly. The biggest problem is the one of "getting attention" and there is no built-in solution to it. (I.e. there is no dominate power that allows you to get a people to stop and look at you -- As I said I'm not familiar with any glamor power... There may be some sort of presence/dominate devotion that does this, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.)
You can spend a willpower to try to dominate the lead ghoul (i.e. right now you just have a chance die, which produced a failure, but since 5-5=0 if you spend a Willpower you'll get the full 3 dice to roll, with ten again that's a 65.7% chance of getting at least one success.

Diego: You're grappled. That means that there strength is subtracted from your combat pools (their strength is high, so this is a significant penalty).
Since you're knife is _touch of shadow_'d I'm making an arbitrary ruling that the first knife attack won't suffer the strength penalty (so you'll get your full str+weaponry+equipment), since the goon won't know you've got six inches of steel in your hand.
After that the knife will become visible and you'd suffer the usual penalties.
Of course you're a vampire, you can spend blood to increase your strength, heal wounds and you're basically immortal. It's overwhelmingly likely that you'd eventually kill the guy if you got into a fight.
Plus you have Nightmare.

Any other questions/comments/etc just post them here or in IC.


----------



## OnlytheStrong (Feb 18, 2008)

lol yeah......... OnlytheStrong was screaming "No! Don't say that Diego!" but he didn't listen. I was thinking about using nightmare but realized my dice pool would be like 2 lol.


----------



## Graf (Feb 18, 2008)

It was very Diego.

I'd probably want to give you the third die (for the 2nd dot of Nightmare you haven't developed yet -- you have paid for it.)

It might be a touch low to use against powerful opponents but you have 'ok' odds of affecting a normal mortal. (With 10 again the math is a bit complex for me to try to work out on 3 dice).

In terms of increasing your pools for nightmare the choices are OK but not great.
A dot of Intimidate would be 3 xp, but, it would only affect * (** and *** are empathy)
Presence would affect all three levels and cost 10 xp.
Empathy would actually affect **, *** and ****. 

*** is basically the same as * in terms of effect but it's more powerful, uses empathy instead of intimidate and it requires a blood point and eye contact.
Don't know which one you want to focus on.

PS * has been errata'd to only affect one target but it doesn't require a physical display of fangs, your visage is just horrifying (so it's not really a breach of the masquerade to use)


----------



## Graf (Feb 18, 2008)

*PC control of frenzy*

Going forward I think we'll allow players the option to control their characters in frenzy.

I realize this contradicts what I've said earlier, but I think people have been doing a great job roleplaying so far.

So when you frenzy you'll get a choice as to whether you want to be in control or not.
If you choose to rp your character's frenzy please consider the following.

*Anger Frenzy*


			
				The Blood pg 97 said:
			
		

> No two vampires behave exactly the same way when they enter frenzy, even if they all evince identical intent. It seems that the basic personality of a vampire is distilled into its most  predatory during the loss of control, eliminating the obstruction of higher mental function, but retaining certain traits. Outgoing, physical Kindred may howl with rage and tear mindlessly at their prey, while more withdrawn intellectual types become chillingly silent, moving with horrifying precision. Vampires maintain (or manifest) characteristic quirks in the throes of their outbursts, making it clear that there is something uniquely theirs in the eruption — they aren’t giving themselves over to an alien influence, but rather expressing a part of themselves that is normally hidden.



also


			
				The Blood pg 98 said:
			
		

> Those with enough knowledge of Protean almost always manifest the _Claws of the Wild_ as they lose themselves to the fury of frenzy.



and


			
				The Blood pg 98 said:
			
		

> For every frenzy that results in the defeat of an enemy, there are
> five or 10 that involve inadvisable, foolishly destructive behavior. A vampire who is annoyed because he can’t crack an ancient code might end up tearing the valuable manuscript he studies to pieces. Another who is punched in the face during a botched feeding attempt may end up painting the walls with his intended victim’s brains.
> Even a vampire who ends up destroying a hated foe in the midst of frenzy may turn upon a friend who tries to calm her down afterwards. Nobody in his right mind likes to frenzy, and giving control over to one’s basest urges is a gamble that rarely turns up a winning  hand.




*Rötschreck*


			
				The Blood pg 99 said:
			
		

> A vampire caught in the grip of the red terror is nothing more than an animal, following the fundamental instinct of self-preservation....The direction of fl ight
> is not reasonable — the vampire will simply move as quickly as possible to get away from the threat, via the most immediately obvious route.



and


			
				same said:
			
		

> Vampires entering fear frenzy almost always spend Vitae to enhance Physical Attributes or Disciplines, if they can. The Beast will empower itself any way it can to ensure survival, even if that means running low on Vitae for the time being. Many a vampire emerges safely from a fear frenzy, only to realize that he is starving and on the verge of Wassail.




*Wassil*


			
				The Blood 98 said:
			
		

> Kindred caught up in Wassail will feed openly, pushing would-be competitors and dismayed witnesses both aside as he tears, gobbles and slurps at the nearest available source of blood, desperate to drain every last drop.



and


			
				same said:
			
		

> Kindred entering Wassail rarely expend Vitae to raise Attributes or fuel Disciplines. They are, after all, seeking to replenish themselves — not further deplete their stores of Blood. Once contact with a vessel is made, though, some Kindred will do whatever it takes to
> maintain their feeding stance, even spending precious Vitae, if necessary, to fend off interference.


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## Graf (Feb 21, 2008)

Not sure how much I should post, or not post.

If you feel like your characters would just sit in the car and ask each other "what should we do" then that's fine. They've all been through a lot, a quiet moment of decompression is very natural.

I'll come back in a day and see if the group has made some progress (or is at least roleplaying something), if not I suppose I should post some sort of summary?
I prefer not to do that sort of thing, I post a lot already and feel like people should be comfortable being more self directed.

There are no "right answers" and I've largely decided not to try to predict what will happen going forward. I didn't expect people to throughly search (or happen upon I suppose) everything in Frank's room when they did so I didn't really expect things to play out the way that they did.

But choices people make, carry, of course, the potential for repercussions.


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## Graf (Feb 23, 2008)

I've been thinking about this for a bit. Not sure precisely what the most productive way to point out something. 

The gist of it would go something like this:
yesterday the group had it's first meeting with the prince. 
A couple of members of the group aserted they were extremely willing to track down and kill their sires. 
(I confess to being a touch surprised by people volunteering to do that but...)
Having been turned loose with what amounts to instructions to deal with one of the volunteers sires, as well as their location and means to get there, I am a touch surprised that its not being discussed as an option. 

Its not a question of "you must do X tonight" but it'll wind up having an impact on everyone. 
I guess I'm curious what the basis of the groups consensus is.


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## WarShrike (Feb 23, 2008)

Do they really expect a group of neonates to infiltrate werewolf territory to kill a sire? Especially when they themselves are scared s___less to go there themselves? And without equipment? If we did, it'd be a very shory campaign if you ask me.


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## OnlytheStrong (Feb 23, 2008)

Diego isn't in a hurry at all   He wouldn't mind getting Vanderchild, but it's more because he knows it will "up" his status. I had him hold off going after Vanderchild basically because it's against his character to do something so dangerous without thinking it through. 

I'm planning on having him dig up what he can by whatever means he can. Maybe go back through his human contacts to find the face of these people, if they are known to the public at all. Then go through the Nosferatu channels to find out more. I imagine he hasn't survived this long without being able to work his way through all the crap to find information.

Also............... I think those ghouls may of just made his list of things to piss off. I'll have to think about how he'd react. They did choke him, but overall he did win out. It's kinda a flip of the coin. Hey! I think I will do that! Head= vengence  Tails= content with the temporary victory

lol it was heads..... Imma have to start keeping a list of ppl to kill


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## Graf (Feb 24, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> ....a group of neonates to infiltrate werewolf territory ...



Hmm.
I don't usually like to get into things this way but...
There are two reasons why I'm not in love with this sort of responce:

One:
How, IC, does Biggs know anything about Werewolves?
In the world of darkness this stuff is a secret. S-E-C-R-E-T means you don't know about it.
Biggs background doesn't include lupines.
At all.

That means he doesn't know  about them.

Two:
I've mentioned this a few times but just because it's in a book somewhere and you've read it (and I presume Warshrike, you're talking as Warshrike and not as Biggs because he doesn't know anything about it) doesn't mean that it'll be true in the game.

I don't mind metagame discussions about stuff, per se, but to be honest I loath metagaming driven IC stuff.
If you want to make an IC reason to do something you'd never normally do talk to me OOC/make an OOC post. 



			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> Especially when they themselves are scared s___less to go there themselves?



You've asserted this several times.
For the life of me I can't figure out why.
Who said they were scared? Why does Biggs think this?
(and, for that matter, why does Warshrike think this...)

I've looked through my posts and I didn't see anything like this. I know I can make typos or soemthing but i haven't even found a typo.




			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> And without equipment? If we did, it'd be a very shory campaign if you ask me.



You're OOC opinion has been noted.
This is an OOC opinion right?


As for what people expect....
Biggs background, selected entirely by you, is that he's a 
mortal, who hunts vampires
solo,
with a sword

That's suicidal behavor.
OOC Vastly more suicidal, honestly, than fighting a werewolf.

IC What does LB expect? Since you volunteered to do something he probably expects you to do it.
You can not do it: and there are like 5 ways the group could 1) not go after merchant 2) still not get in trouble with LB (That I can think of) but there are no ways that involve telling LB "You're scared of werewolves you big pussy, why should I go do it?"

I'm not a huge fan of this- kind of trouble with LB because
1. It has the potential for characters to be torpored, semi-permenently
2. It has the potential for the characters to wind up with a permenet chaparone.

I don't mind people not going after Merchant, at all, but it doesn't make sense that you're using OOC info to assert soemthing that isn't true IC, and it will end up, most probably with the non-dramatic, non-fun result of Biggs getting staked and dropped in a hole in the ground.

If you didn't want to get sent after your sires OOC this badly, why did you leap forward and announce that you would yesterday? (in game terms?)

It wasn't a forgone conclusion, btw. There were other possibilities but you've kind of made your bed, it's a strange time to suddenly assert that you don't like it.
If you'd, IC, tried for Merchant and he'd turned out to be a methusala, or you'd met lupines and they'd kicked your asses IC at some point already I'd understand it.

I'd understand more conservative characters balking or wanting to get info. 
But I don't understand, really, Biggs suddenly being possessed of massive fear of lupines (which he's never met and knows nothing about).

Again, I realize you have (or think you have) lots of special OOC info about how dangerous the situation is. But I encourage you to think in terms of what your characters would do.


----------



## Graf (Feb 24, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> ? And without equipment?



OK. This baffles me too, while we're at it.

What has Biggs done to get equipment? Besides complain that NPCs haven't given him the equipment he wants?
Has he talked about getting equipment with other characters (beyond vaguely asserting that he wants more)? Has he tried to come up with ideas to get equipment? Has he asked OOC for skill checks for ideas (I.e. I'd like to make some sort of role to see if Biggs can think about where to get an X)? Has he made general kinds of roles as to how to get gear?

Nope. He's complained he doesn't have it.

If you're waiting for NPCs to give you stuff, do stuff for you then, honestly, you're gonna be waiting a long time.

I don't really know how to put it but...
this is a vampire game. You get  by going out and getting it/making somebody give it to you/what have you.

If this were DnD and LB were the "local duke" and he was hiring you to "clear the forest of goblins" then you could expect that you'd be able to ask him to have his wizard make your weapons "+9 weapons of goblin slaying".
And when you got back you'd get your 500 gold pieces and to dance with his daughter.

But this isn't DnD.

And if you think about it there is a really simple, obvious, IC reason why LB isn't gonna give you any swords, or guns, or thermite grenades or whatever may have been standard issue in some other game you've played.


----------



## WarShrike (Feb 24, 2008)

I was speaking as Biggs, not WarShrike.
This is Biggs's take on things:
1. He knows vampires are real, so he's open to the possibilities of other things as well.
2. Cole told him there were things that go bump in the night that even a vampire should be afraid of.
3. He's got a specialty in monster movies, so he knows what a classic werewolf is.
4. Nice said Merchant was in "Lupine" territory. Considdering the above, it's not too hard to guess what "Lupines" are.
5. Nice says he knows where Merchant is but hasn't done anything about it.
6. Nice told LB where Merchant is staying, specifying: He knows we don't go there. That, + #5, +#2, has him convinced vampires have good reasons to fear "Lupines", and that these vampires in particular are afraid of going into "Lupine territory".
7. Nice told the group before we left in the car: [Merchant] I was going to take care of him tonight, but... [for some unexplained reason, we're too busy to deal with it]. [A.K.A. Took that to mean he was chickenning out.]
8. I originally misread that speach Nice gave as meaning to stay away from Merchant for tonight. [A.K.A. "We" as in everyone present, are too busy tonight.]



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> You're OOC opinion has been noted.
> This is an OOC opinion right?



It was posted in the OOC thread, so yes, it is.



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> As for what people expect....
> Biggs background, selected entirely by you, is that he's a
> mortal, who hunts vampires
> solo,
> ...



2 swords actually, and we were released into the city with nothing but our pants and shoes. I think hunting werewolves barehanded is far more suicidal than hunting vampires with 2 swords. Until we get properly armed, as far as i can see, it's not goint to happen.



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> If you didn't want to get sent after your sires OOC this badly, why did you leap forward and announce that you would yesterday? (in game terms?)



While there is no guarantee that they will run into werewolves while going after Merchant (nice said he was on the edge of Lupine territory as opposed to in the middle), he'd rather not take on a gaggle of werewolves naked. And he fully expected to not be naked. LB did say he would help out equipment wise (if i read the post right) but never delivered.



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> Now, ah also unndastand you ain't all equipped tah go out an' find an' kill yah siahs. Ah assure you that ah and mah sheriff, he gestures to Blackcoat, am gonna be quite diligent on that f______ front.




Hope that explains a bit.


----------



## Graf (Feb 24, 2008)

Biggs said:
			
		

> Hope that explains a bit.



Eh?
Taken out of context... I.e. just that one line? 
I could see a lawyer trying to make that arguement.

It's obvious that LB's not talking about gear. Both he and blackcoat obviously wander around unarmed. Both you and Archer have actually fought blackcoat and she took you apart with her bare hands.

If this were a court of law and you were arguing contracts you might get some sort of nod from the judge.

You're welcome to throw that back in LBs face and see where it gets you.
I mean that completely neutrally. He may buy that it was just a misunderstanding.

Of course you're then saying
"You promised to give me something, you didn't so I'm not gonna do  for you"

Which suggests you don't take his being a prince too seriously.



			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> I was speaking as Biggs, not WarShrike.



OK. That's a start. But a lot of stuff below is actually stuff that Biggs doesn't know.

This is kinda a bizaare thing to say, but you're familiar with in character and out of character right?

Everybody's been roleplaying extremely well, so I'd assumed people had some rping experience.

Basically: IN CHARACTER means "Things your character knows".
OUT OF CHARACTER means "Things the player knows"

Generally the player knows a lot more than the character, and there is a tendency for people, especially people who are more gamist (i.e. oriented toward winning) to try to use that OOC information IC.

(I.e. My character doesn't know that the answer to the riddle is "Time" because he was unconcious, but the player knows because he heard another player answer the DM. So I'll just make it so my character knows that too and I can solve the riddle too)

Generally using OOC info IC is frowned upon.



			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> 2. Cole told him there were things that go bump in the night that even a vampire should be afraid of.



Cute.
Cole is in the car with you. If Biggs wanted to find out more about Lupines he could just ask Cole.



			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> 5. Nice says he knows where Merchant is but hasn't done anything about it.



Nice said he "Just found out." Since he hadn't heard of Merchant, at all the night before you can presume that he'd really just found out. 



			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> 6. Nice told LB where Merchant is staying, specifying: He knows we don't go there. That, + #5, +#2, has him convinced vampires have good reasons to fear "Lupines", and that these vampires in particular are afraid of going into "Lupine territory".



I think this is a massive stretch.
5 isn't true.
2 isn't a reason. If Biggs thought Cole was warning you about lupines then he'd ask him.



			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> 7. Nice told the group before we left in the car: [Merchant] I was going to take care of him tonight, but... [for some unexplained reason, we're too busy to deal with it]. [A.K.A. Took that to mean he was chickenning out.]



I don't know how to put it but *Biggs does not have Auspex*.
On one hand this is a good catch.
On the other hand?
It's got nothing to do with lupines, (i.e. 1-6).

Your reason for not going was because Merchant is staying in the edge of lupine territory, which is too difficult/dangerous to cross.

If you want Auspex you can swing your unspent discipline dot into Auspex and have it.
(So you'd be Auspex *, Protean **)
Or you can make friends with Beth or Archer.

At the risk of stating the obvious: The spoiler blocks aren't labed AUSPEX - BETH & ARCHER because they're for Biggs.

You can:

IC try to steer the conversation towards getting info from the other characters (I.e. I'd like to go after Merchant, but I think there may be more going on)
OOC post saying you'd like it if people share a tidbit for whatever reason.





			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> 2 swords actually, and we were released into the city with nothing but our pants and shoes. I think hunting werewolves barehanded is far more suicidal than hunting vampires with 2 swords. Until we get properly armed, as far as i can see, it's not goint to happen.



IC or OOC?

IF it's IC:
Who talked about hunting werewolves?
When?
Why?
If Biggs thinks they need more equipment why isn't he getting it? You were asserting a minute ago that he was operating on horror movies (which is perfectly reasonable). Wouldn't he want silver bullets (for instance).

If it's OOC?
One this is kinda academic, but vampires are killed by two things: fire and sunlight.
Is it possible that the group could role through a hypothetical Lupine territory and get stomped.
Yah, sure  
You'd take a bunch of lethal wounds and wanting a bit of blood for sure. 
I haven't, for the record, decided whether the werewolves in the game are WtF werewolves or what not. (All those gift lists give me a headache).

But you've got disciplines (IMHO much better than gifts), vampires do agg damage naturally, werewolves do lethal, vampires can feed on dead lupines and heal, lupines have to run of into the woods, shake their furry heinies under the moon for a while and spend essence to heal.

It would be a pretty fair fight (i.e. it would come down to a question of situation and "who's the most optimized in terms of combat).

Mortal vs vampire?
Mortal dies.
If mortal has lots of great skills, good equipment, the element of suprise, and lots of good die rolls?
The mortal may surivive once or twice before dying. (this, btw, is how I see biggs and why Biggs was fighting a ghoul during his prelude. A kindred would just have been too risky/hard to explain.).

The new WoD game, Hunter?
It's got lots of new powers and abilities because?
The ones in the core book aren't enough to take down a supernatural.
IMHO, natch.
The problem really is that without a stake all that happens is the vampire runs low on blood, then they frenzy grapple and drink, the mortal succumbs to the kiss.



			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> While there is no guarantee that they will run into werewolves while going after Merchant (nice said he was on the edge of Lupine territory as opposed to in the middle), he'd rather not take on a gaggle of werewolves naked. And he fully expected to not be naked. LB did say he would help out equipment wise (if i read the post right) but never delivered.



It's fairly obvious I think that LB was talking about your relative power levels.

He led off with a sermon on self-reliance, not on one that said: Every time you want some material good then come to me and I'll buy it for you.

***************************
For that matter what would you do with all this gear you seem to want?

Lets assume that you had two swords, a gattling gun on the back of the car, some M-16s, and grenades.
You roll up to the motel where Merchant is supposed to be staying and? What?

You're on the "edge" of lupine terrotorry. So there could be some lupine around somewhere, what do you do? Open up with the gattling gun on the first hairy guy you see? Maybe follow up with a grenade and then close into melee dual weilding?

This would help you investigate/find Merchant how exactly?

You would explain this breach of the Masquarade (and probable irritation of the lupines) by saying...?

And I'm not even going to talk about the problems you'd have with the police/national guard/etc.


----------



## WarShrike (Feb 24, 2008)

You're the ST, and you get final say, but that doesn't mean you can twist my words around to make me look like an a$$. I'm not gonna put up with S___ like that.

I'm out.


----------



## Graf (Feb 24, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> You're the ST, and you get final say, but that doesn't mean you can twist my words around to make me look like an a$$. I'm not gonna put up with S___ like that.
> 
> I'm out.



 I suppose its probably too late to say this but it was never my intent to "twist your words around" or "make you look like an <whatever>".

So, in the unlikely event that you look at this thread then I've enjoyed playing with you so far, you encouraged me to think about the game in ways I wouldn't have and I appreciate that and apoloigse for having offended you and (apparently) wasted your time.


----------



## industrygothica (Feb 24, 2008)

So I guess I'm a bit confused too, then.  At first I thought LB wanted us to kill our sires.  Then, with the 







			
				Graff said:
			
		

> Now, ah also unndastand you ain't all equipped tah go out an' find an' kill yah siahs. Ah assure you that ah and mah sheriff, he gestures to Blackcoat, am gonna be quite diligent on that f______ front.



 statement, I took it to mean that maybe it is only our job to locate our sires, and then let LB and Blackcoat take care of the messy stuff.

Maybe I'm wrong on both accounts?

In any case, I like this game; I'd like to continue playing it.


-IG


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## Graf (Feb 25, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> In any case, I like this game; I'd like to continue playing it.
> -IG



Very glad to hear that.


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## Graf (Feb 25, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> So I guess I'm a bit confused too, then.  At first I thought LB wanted us to kill our sires.  Then, with the  statement, I took it to mean that maybe it is only our job to locate our sires, and then let LB and Blackcoat take care of the messy stuff.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong on both accounts?



You aren't wrong. LB said this *before *Diego and Biggs started saying things like

"I'd like to be there when you kill Vanderchild, if that is possible."
"Dude! we're the ones who are going to kill Vanderchild, along with the others who sired us. Every one. And i'm looking forward to it."

I mean, if you were LB what would you do?
He wants their sire's dead, he was expecting to have to do it himself, but if he has a bunch of suicidal neonates leaping over each other to do it instead of him is gonna say No?

Of course not.

He'll say. "That's right boys! That's the deal! You go get 'em!"

Does that make sense? I mean... nobody made Biggs (or Warshrike) post that.
I didn't encourage that. (at all!) I had to have a good think when he started up with the whole "I'll do it myself stuff!".

But I tried to roll with it and adapt the game to match the choices that PCs make. It makes sense that neonates would make mistakes/misjudgments.

[sblock=Much longer explanation, which includes a bunch of IC stuff to give more background, etc]Urg. I really, massively prefer to do things IC. But since things are sensitive now then I suppose I'll just roll with it and explain OOC.

It'd be understandable as it's a bit vague basically here's the thing.

LB isn't a proxy for the adventure... he's a guy. The sort of old unpleasant vampire that I think would be a prince of a city (instead of the sorts of characters that WoD usually deploys but I suppose that's another post).

What does he want?
 He wants to be in charge, with his childer and have free reign. I.e. the status quo.

So he gets into power (the players still don't know how really) and then once he's there he systematically outlaws all the sorts of things that would be a threat to him (or even just make his nights unpleasant)
a) new vampires
b) new ghouls
c) new blood bonds
he's also strongly discouraged people having guns and/or weaponry. He doesn't use weaponry himself, he requires that ghouls aren't armed (you notice that the "security" force in the elevator wasn't armed, not even a set of brass knuckles)
[sblock=Why didn't you mention guns, etc earlier?]Honestly because I knew that people wanted to have equipment. If they'd been doing a good job they could probably have convinced LB to let them carry around some stuff for "emergencies" but if people pushed he'd have said "no guns no swords no nothing" just like for everyone else.

This is one of the reasons he wasn't equipping the characters, incidentally. He doesn't keep room someplace filled with lots of guns and explosives because he doesn't use them and he doesn't want other people to use him.
He doesn't own any of that.

Just because he's a prince (and princes in White Wolf books always have squads of ghouls armed with heavy weaponry) doesn't necessarily mean he would.
If you're have claws, would you really go around equiping people with swords? Or would you just make them use knives or their fists?
If you can shrug off light weapons fire would you discourage or encourage people to have guns? Discourage right?
I just doesn't make much sense for him to be giving people guns, swords, blah blah blah. 
A guy with just his hands isn't going to take on LB. A guy with a flame thrower might be tempted to take a shot.

I confess to simulationist tendencies.[/sblock]


So he's set up this restrictive regime and it's sort of worked. But, of course, a lot of kindred are upset (to one degree or another) with the rules.
They're restrictive, they're different from other cities, they don't involve sharing power with people, it forces most kindred to get out and hunt more, to deal with mortals more, etc etc.

So there's pressure, especially from other elders and ancilla to try to get him to roll back the restrictions. It's nicer to be on the top of the totem pole if you have a bunch of people underneath you.

Of course they don't necessarily want to say "I want to embrace but only me and maybe my allies" so they try to get other kindred involved saying that LB's destroying the fabric of kindred society/power-mad/whatever.

So, anyway, suddenly he has a bunch of new vampires. 

His inclination is to kill them, but, of course that plays into the hands of people who say that he's a power-mad autocrat.
So he has to thread a bit of a needle; he has to come down hard, and punish people but look like he's being fair.  

Now his original deal with Cole was: You figure out this mystery for me and I'll deal with it.

If this were an adventure it would read


			
				Adventure Goal said:
			
		

> If the Cole discovers the mystery surrounding his appearance he will earn LB's trust and the right to live in the city. If he does really well it's possible that ... blah blah blah




So he's about to offer basically the same goal to the group.

LB: So I'm going to offer you this deal you...
Biggs: (interrupting) I'll kill my sire for you!
Diego: (interrupting) Me too!

Now: If this were DnD, and LB was an LG Duke or something then he'd say "HO HO HO, that won't be necessary my young friends. Maybe when you've become more experienced..."

But this is vampire. Not DnD.

Now what is LB gonna do?
He'll take full advantage of the PCs. Why not?

If you're playing a game, and you make a choice, especially if it's an unsolicited choice (i.e. something you just came up with yourself) then I'm obliged to respect that choice.

As neonate vampires you'll make bad decisions occasionally.

If Biggs, or anybody, decides later that they don't want the deal then that's perfectly OK. But it's gotta be dealt with IC. You can figure out a way to renegotiate, or play dumb, or whatever.

But you can't really make some OOC reason, (I.e. my sire is in Lupine terrotorry, so I guess the deal is off) and then use some sort of convoluted specious arguement to information launder it into the game and assert that it's a great IC reason for you to break your deal with LB.

Or you can, but LB will probably just put you into torpor.
Because the info isn't IC info, it's OOC info and (incidentally) it's wrong.

Diego's recent scene mentioned a "Lupine War". The PCs haven't dug yet, but there was a war, the vampires won and kindred can go anywhere in the city that they want. 
They don't routinely go into lupine territory for the same reason that Nazi's didn't go into the Warsaw Ghetto as part of their day to day life. (or whatever, sorry it's a bad analogy but I can't think of a better one really, right now).[/sblock]


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## Graf (Feb 25, 2008)

Bloodweaver1 said:
			
		

> OOC: I see the begining of Cole's path really requiring only Archer. The others will just be left hanging in the background. If there is nothing left to do, then we can begin with his tonight. But it will definately require more than one half night to accomplish.




Generally speaking I would say that there are multiple routes to dealing with each character's background. Some, admittedly, are more obscure than others.

The answer to this question really depends on what Cole's going to do. If he wants to approach the company with his name then Archer is useful.

At midnight when the offices are closed?
Honestly Diego would probably also be useful.

Of course Archer's info is probably going to be invaluable.

But there are other threads that Cole can pick up as well.


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## Graf (Feb 25, 2008)

Another way to put it would be that there are plenty of reasons for the PCs to do or not do something.
If you don't want to follow Blackcoat's implied instructions then you don't have to. Festy, for instance, is suggesting the party follow another lead.

You can't, though, use OOC info as an IC reason.
Especially if it's a screen for the fact that the player is upset that NPCs aren't supplying them with gear.
Or you can but it won't really be an effective excuse.

It would be fine if Biggs was pissed that his swords were broken/not replaced/whatever and not going to do anything that seemed like it would please LB. That would be an IC reason.
But Biggs wants-swords-before-he-fights-lupines-he-knows-nothing-about?
No.
Not a reason.

Bah. This is sitting on my brain like a roach.


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## Graf (Feb 25, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> Imma have to start keeping a list of ppl to kill



OOC a list is fine.
IC a list is OK, but if he actually makes a list of people to kill and starts killing them?

You'd risk losing humanity.


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## OnlytheStrong (Feb 25, 2008)

I've played VtR enough to know (and Diego would know just from what ppl have said so far) that him kiling his sire is not going to happen. Which is why he wanted to be there. Just to watch. I admit I was confused when Warstrike said we were going to kill them, but I just went with it. I guess I shoulda had Diego say something............


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## industrygothica (Feb 25, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> I've played VtR enough to know (and Diego would know just from what ppl have said so far) that him kiling his sire is not going to happen. Which is why he wanted to be there. Just to watch. I admit I was confused when Warstrike said we were going to kill them, but I just went with it. I guess I shoulda had Diego say something............




Well, this is my first ever Vampire game, but vampire lore itself suggests that any fledgling has almost zero chance of killing his sire--at least not in a fair fight.  Maybe surprising them just before dawn by hacking them up with sickles and burning what's left will work sometimes, but it seems like that one's been used somewhere before. 

Regardless, Beth loves Constance for whatever reason.  She's not going to kill her.  I think you'd be hard pressed to get her to try and find her for that reason as well, but I don't know.  Honestly, I think there might be more afoot than that, and hopefully she'll get a chance to explore that opinion soon enough.


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## Graf (Feb 26, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> I've played VtR enough to know (and Diego would know just from what ppl have said so far) that him kiling his sire is not going to happen. Which is why he wanted to be there. Just to watch. I admit I was confused when Warstrike said we were going to kill them, but I just went with it. I guess I shoulda had Diego say something............



You should do what Diego would do.
I mean... I didn't say to War... "You're saying something you shouldn't say" or "you're promising something that's impossible".
It was a cool scene, I thought.

Again, though, if you swear that you're gonna kill your sire with your own hands, when the prince is talking about whether or not the prince is going to punish you for your creation or not....
It's not just a one liner.

You've spoken to an NPC. In this case an NPC in a position of power with their own agenda.
_
edit: At the same time, saying that doesn't mean that the rest of the game is just the PCs trapped in a locked room and they have to kill their sire in personal combat before they can leave.
I took the conversation OOC because there were many ways to wriggle out of getting into trouble for ducking Blackcoat's instructions, but that (really the only way) you couldn't do it was using some sort of OOC excuse.
Or at least it would have lead to getting into boring, story stopping trouble.

I should probably just have left the whole thing alone._



			
				OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> I've played VtR enough to know (and Diego would know just from what ppl have said so far) that him kiling his sire is not going to happen.





			
				industrygothica said:
			
		

> Well, this is my first ever Vampire game, but vampire lore itself suggests that any fledgling has almost zero chance of killing his sire--at least not in a fair fight.  Maybe surprising them just before dawn by hacking them up with sickles and burning what's left will work sometimes, but it seems like that one's been used somewhere before.



[sblock=Tangent about combat and power]
This is purely a random statement, but the most powerful thing in a roleplaying game is an action.

In nWoD every character gets one action a round. And there is no more "soaking" (i.e. if you damage someone, then you damage them -- there are almost no cases where a success on an attack role can be negated by the foe).

So, if the group gets into combat with a single opponent that person will go once to the group's five actions. (and can spend 5 blood points a turn, 5 willpower points a turn, etc).
And, if you think about the group as an organ, it doesn't really degrade in potency (i.e. lose actions) until a character drops or stops fighting (i.e. it's taken minimum 7 health levels ....)

If you apply the math: assume that everyone in the group has combat pool of 5 or so. The foe has a defense of 3 (which removes six dice). That's 19 dice. The mean number of successes is around 7 (with 10-again). Average health for a normal character? 7 health levels. That's going to add up fast, even if you're fighting someone who can spend multiple blood points a round.
Of course if they have celerity 2 then you're rolling 3 chance dice and 6 regular dice.
But some members of the group would probably get a lot more dice (Cole with a shotgun is in the 9-10 range, so is Biggs with melee).
It's situational.

I'm not saying that you *should* kill your sires, or that you *shouldn't* or "it'd be easy" or that it's even possible (or isn't possible) for the group to actually kill all their sires this in this case (i.e. for Archer, Beth, Biggs, Cole and Diego to kill Celeste, Constance, and whoever else) or anything like that. 
I'm just speaking generally.

And, generally speaking I think it's true that, depending on die rolls, a group of five neonates could take on a reasonably powerful kindred and destroy them.

Again this is OOC. 
IC you're characters may very well believe that it's totally impossible to kill a powerful vampire.The only vampires people have faced in combat (Blackcoat really) is specifically designed to be a combat monster. Her melee die pool is very large, she has multiple dots in a Fighting Style and has plowed a big chunk of her xp into combat disciplines. And she's very good at one-on-one.

Could the PCs as a group take her?
Normally I'd say no way. But if she was low on blood, and the fight started with someone throwing a grenade at her?
The scope of possible results are large. Some of them involve the PCs "winning" i.e. driving her off. A smaller set involve the possibility of the group "winning outright" and driving her into torpor (celerity eats blood points, if she falls into a hunger frenzy she'll start trying to drink blood instead of defending herself, trying to grapple and drink in a fight with multiple supernaturals is very inefficient, you can only drink one point a round, etc).

So if the question is "do the PCs, as a group, have -no- chance of killing a powerful vampire?"
The answer is: No. There is some chance. Even without talking about sunlight, or fire or what have you.

As an OOC statement I do prefer this. 
The PCs are relevant.
There are not many situations where a group of vampire PCs could just be ignored by someone nearby them because they weren't a threat. 
(There are a few throbbing exceptions of course -- but this tangent is long enough already).​[/sblock]


			
				industrygothica said:
			
		

> Regardless, Beth loves Constance for whatever reason.  She's not going to kill her.  I think you'd be hard pressed to get her to try and find her for that reason as well, but I don't know.  Honestly, I think there might be more afoot than that, and hopefully she'll get a chance to explore that opinion soon enough.



Noted.
As the game was presented originally as a "investigative/role playing scenario" you could reasonably expect it would not solely involve a series of linear search and destroy missions.

I do want characters (and players) to feel like their pushing their respective stories forward. Right now the game emphasis is a bit more on getting people into the world, etc etc.

But, I also feel like I owe the group a degree of flexibility.
If Biggs (or whoever) announces that he wants to kill their sires and everyone goes along then that has the potential to change the game.
It's an RPG after all.
Game reality has to flex to accommodate the actions the players have the PC's take.


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## Graf (Feb 29, 2008)

So... 

The situation is that Archer has asked Cole a question, and everyone else is stilling in the car.

Are there any other pending questions or issues I should be addressing?


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## industrygothica (Feb 29, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> So...
> 
> The situation is that Archer has asked Cole a question, and everyone else is stilling in the car.
> 
> Are there any other pending questions or issues I should be addressing?




None that I've noticed.  I think we're ready to move on.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Feb 29, 2008)

Yea sorry...  RL is in full effect.. will post/respond shortly. I'm greatly apologize.


-Blood


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## Graf (Mar 3, 2008)

*Rolling for information*

No worries blood. 

Incidentally my policy is that you can always try to "roll for information".
[sblock=Why?]I've played in too many games were people sit around for six hours because the DM thinks something is "totally obvious" and that "if you just thought about it you'll figure it out".

Actually, I usually quit those games.
But I've had friends who stuck with it and got to hear for hours and hours later about how they spent hours and hours trapped in the mansion in the snowstorm dealing with the monster-that-was-immune-to-all-damage except from one "obvious" source.
[/sblock]

So Archer can roll Enigmas to try to figure stuff out, Beth can make rolls to try to dredge up blocked memories, etc etc.


There are some other points

Skills -- it helps a lot of have a few dots in the relevant skill otherwise you can get a dramatic failure. 
failure -- Generally speaking you'll get a null answer (you don't know, you'll need to think about it more, you're not sure, nothing comes to mind). But if you're rolling, and you *haven't got any skill dots* you can get a *dramatic failure*. If so I'll feed you some line of BS and you'll have to play it out like you believe it.
I won't make people roll chance dice (and risk dramatic failure) unless you haven't got the skill.
It's going to be inefficient. It'll almost always be faster to go out and do some actual investigation/research. But if you're totally stumped, and/or your character has a few hours to just sit around and try to think you make an attempt
There are logical limits to what you can deduce. For ex: when Biggs thought that he'd never been embraced it would have been impossible to deduce that he'd been sired or by whom. Die rolling couldn't give a definitive answer. Ditto things like Beth trying to "figure out" where her sire is now. She doesn't have any sort of information that would lead her finding out.

Generally speaking, if you have an idea already about what it is, it'll be easier to just say "I think it's this, does my character?"
If it's real world info you'll almost never have a problem with me; provided it's not going to change the game in some sort of significant way. (Insisting "anyone can make napalm from common cleaning supplies" or "everyone knows that you can buy explosive rounds in target").

If it's game world info (i.e. something from a published White Wolf book) then I think it depends. Its probably pretty obvious but...
1. If it's happened in your back story then you definitely know it. (Archer's been blood bound, he'll know a lot about it, even if he doesn't know all the fancy names)
2. If it's almost certainly never happened in your back story then you probably don't know it. (Archer's never met the VII or had a chance to really research or learn about them. So he doesn't know anything substantial about them.) *If he wants to know then he'll have to roll* (and suffer penalties if I think he's trying to know something that would be difficult). If you make the roll. You'll get it. Even if I need to make up some cockamamie flashback (like I did here for Archer) as to why. (See also Biggs and Lupines).
3. Everything else is permutations of the above.


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## Graf (Mar 3, 2008)

Would it help the flow of the game if I said that the "burning sensation" on Archer's arms isn't supposed to be a story stopping event.

It's, at best, minor foreshadowing.

While people are free to react to it however they would want to, and it's a bit odd/weird whatever I -don't- think there is really much information that could be gleaned from it to inform action.

Like the "quiet night streets" when you left the apartment building it's more story color, intended to give the impression that your characters live in a vibrant, messy world. (I apologize, since it seems to be coming off more as inept than anything else).


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## Graf (Mar 5, 2008)

So Archer built up a complex plan, and Beth didn't really follow it.

This is, as they say, the breaks.

Personally I think that over the long term this sort of interaction is what makes interparty roleplaying meaningful. Personalities are one thing, but shared experiences (and people disagreeing based on shared history) is another.

I've somewhat arbitrarily moved the game along fairly far. You might argue that I should stop the action and let Archer try to stop Beth.

But I didn't. To be honest I didn't because I think that the first interaction/disagreement has the most story juice. (Ok that's not english, but I'm tired so that's how I explain it).

It helps that Archer had a bit of a distracting sensory experience.

But this -is- one area where Vampire is a great game. The PCs are fairly resilient. If Beth had run into a crew of chainsaw wielding ghouls and wound up getting taken out she'd still be a viable character. Just heal up and sneak away.

In this case nothing of the sort happened of course. But I didn't advance the action as a validation or invalidation of any particular plan.


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## industrygothica (Mar 5, 2008)

Eh, sorry if I screwed things up a bit.  Just trying to stay in character, and there's a vice here with her name written all over it.


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## Graf (Mar 6, 2008)

For some reason I didn't see these posts as being updated in my control panel.
Sorry for the delay.


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## Graf (Mar 7, 2008)

Off-line for maybe 24 hours. Will try to meditate a bit over the weekend if I can. 

Otherwise I'll be back with something substantial by Monday morning my time.
Apologies.


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## Graf (Mar 7, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> Eh, sorry if I screwed things up a bit.  Just trying to stay in character, and there's a vice here with her name written all over it.



Right.
Didn't get on top of this like I should have.

Since this was potentially dangerous, I think you've regained a point of willpower.
_except... you're already at full... so it doesn't matter... _

This demonstrates why you'd want to spend willpower actually, because you'll get it back over time, and it's really good (especially when you have a marginal role you want to make).


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## Graf (Mar 12, 2008)

*Offline till monday*

RL rears its head.
I'll be offline until Monday.
After that things should be smooth sailing for a while.
Ideally I'll be able to catch up on Deigo's stuff and be more responsive.

Sincere apologies.


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## Graf (Mar 17, 2008)

Back.

My view is that Cole's finishing up his "drug deal", Beth and Archer are still conversing and Diego is waiting for people to get finished.

I got maybe four hours of sleep last night but tomorrow I'll try to have something for Diego as well as anything else that people need.
[In other words, let me know if you're looking for a response to something.]


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## Graf (Mar 18, 2008)

Was a bit blocked on Diego's post. Its up now though.
That scene happens yesterday night (confusing I know, will try to limit this going forward).

The scene should establish that Diego's got Monstrous Countenance. The next few posts should help get at least a bit more information about how the rest of the night went, including trying to visit Vanderchild.

I'll continue to be around and not busy for the next few weeks, so expect responses within 24 hours or so.


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## Graf (Apr 7, 2008)

As I'm running the game I think I'm getting a better appreciation for the benefits and flaws of nWoD.

I strugglith, in particular, with humanity. The old guy is dead, and he was a person, or a close approximation thereabouts. While I think Beth and Diego's responses were a touch callous I have difficulty justifying calling for humanity rolls.

Hm. For now we'll just skip it. 

And yes, Diego's prelude has stalled for a bit (again). I'll try to get it running again in a few days. I plead real life excuses of the usual variety.


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## industrygothica (Apr 7, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> As I'm running the game I think I'm getting a better appreciation for the benefits and flaws of nWoD.
> 
> I strugglith, in particular, with humanity. The old guy is dead, and he was a person, or a close approximation thereabouts. While I think Beth and Diego's responses were a touch callous I have difficulty justifying calling for humanity rolls.
> 
> ...




To the contrary, I believe that Beth's actions were less than callous, if not justified.

William Jefferson kidnapped her, tortured her, and generally scared the life out of her.  He hurt her, made her bleed... made her wish she were dead.

This guy, while he most assuredly is not William Jefferson, is quite obviously at the very least somehow associated with him or his ilk.  And he attacked.  Violently.

Have you ever witnessed a scared animal?  There was no way she was going through that again.

At least that's the way I see it.

Regardless, I appreciate the break.  Mind giving an overview on how humanity works, so I'll be more aware of it in the future?


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## Graf (Apr 8, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> To the contrary, I believe that Beth's actions were less than callous, if not justified.
> 
> William Jefferson kidnapped her, tortured her, and generally scared the life out of her.  He hurt her, made her bleed... made her wish she were dead.
> 
> ...



 Yeah.... it's kinda ****ed up.

By the book killing somebody calls for a "humanity check".

This would make sense in nWoD by staying "the horrible things you have experienced have hardened (or threaten to harden -- you could pass the check) your heart".
On a meta level, though your character or Diego's character or whoever is being screwed over without the player having any say.
There's no spot where you can say "I don't want to have my character lose humanity".

It also, effectively, rewards people who don't do anything. 
Which is bogus for role playing.

The base of this Morality subsystem is a stat that represents "how good a person you are" the higher your stat the more dice you have for certain things but the "easier" it is for your to lose (because more actions will trigger a check).

 Mortals have Morality (I think) which is the basis of the system. Each 'race' as a "tweaked" version. Mages have Wisdom (which is very restrictive, supposedly because they can go crazy easily), Changelings have Clarity, etc.
The tweaked stat's hierarchy of sins is almost always more restrictive; so you at 7: no theft + some supernatural activity. Werewolves' stat is the only one that's less restrictive than humans (IIRC) they can kill with impunity, so long as it's in a fight (I think... festy probably knows this stuff better than I).

Humanity is the stat for vampires. 

For humanity 7, petty larceny (i.e. shoplifting) is a sin. This is part of the reason why the first player who dropped (Jemal) wanted to start off at 5, because most normal RPG action is going to shove people down to 5 pretty quickly.

And of course, losing humanity not only has some minor mechanical effects (your social pool with humans is capped by humanity), but also forces you to make another check or get a derangement (i.e. go insane).

For now lets just say that *most of the hierarchy of sins is suspended* is suspended.
If it gets re-instated later I'll warn people in advance, and we'll talk about it.

(For the avoidance of doubt: really serious stuff (torture for pleasure, yucky-stuff-I-don't-think-I-need-to-mention, losing control during feeding and killing an innocent human*) will trigger a check.
*=technically this is a bit unfair, since it's tough for vampires to resist in certain situations, but I think that without it the game really swings further into Lost Boys territory than I'm interested in going.
(And, at the current stage of the game, blood points are available to people without hunting for mortals)

Thoughts, comments, feedback?


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## Bloodweaver1 (Apr 8, 2008)

Works for me. 

-Blood


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## Graf (May 20, 2008)

So things have been a bit quiet.

Not sure what that means for the group.

I wasn't planning on giving out xp this early in the game, but given that you've hit certain milestones (I didn't expect you to hit) it seems curlish not to give out the xp I'd originally planned.
Planned = fairly loose sense of the word.

So Beth has 15 xp (for the picture) and everyone has 14 xp to spend.

If people want to continue then let me know, I, obviously, have a lot more stuff left. If not then let me know that too.

Going to go offline for a while to finish some stuff (I keep saying that but...).


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## industrygothica (May 20, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> So things have been a bit quiet.
> 
> Not sure what that means for the group.
> 
> ...




Sorry I've been quiet lately.  I've been neglecting my own games as well, unfortunately.  Been wrapped up in building a new website--too wrapped up, apparently.

Regardless, of course I want to continue.  Mind giving the quick and dirty version of spending XP?


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## Bloodweaver1 (May 20, 2008)

I am not too sure on how the whole EXP thing works either. 


-Blood


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## Graf (May 21, 2008)

I'd never run a game before when I started, so I think that a lot of my expectations and some of my behaviors weren't particularly productive.

And it is true that online games don't take a lot of effort once you've started (or at least that's my thinking). It's setup that's a pain.

Just for the record I think that this much experience is pretty rare. If you'd asked when we started I would have said "you won't get more than a few points for the first night" so don't expect to be getting 10+ points every night.
(How much are you going to get? I have no idea...)

Not that I'm planning on skimping if you hit other targets...
It'd be funny if this game turns into something like 48 hours...
[sblock=XP]EXPERIENCE COSTS
Trait ---------------------- Cost
Attribute  ---------------------- New dots x 5
Skill  ---------------------- New dots x 3
Skill Specialty ---------------------- 3 points
Clan or Bloodline Discipline ---------------------- New dots x 5
Other Discipline* ---------------------- New dots x 7
Theban Sorcery or Crúac Ritual Ritual ---------------------- level x 2
Merit ---------------------- New dots x 2
Blood Potency ---------------------- New dots x 8
Humanity ---------------------- New dots x 3
Willpower ---------------------- 8 points​* Includes Coils of the Dragon. [/sblock]


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## Bloodweaver1 (May 21, 2008)

Can you give us an example on how the exp system works? What about our Merits now? Do we get them now or do we still have to role-play them out?

-Blood


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## Graf (May 21, 2008)

People still need to rp out the background-merits.
I feel compelled to stick to my guns on that one.

You just haven't had a chance to develop relationships with people yet (except for the drug dealer of course).

XP works just like in the chart:
So if Beth says "I used Celerity a bunch last game, I'd like to buy another dot" then you look at her current dots (one) so the next dot would be (two).
Its a clan discipline, so it's 5x(two)=ten experience. She'd have spent 10 and have 4 left.

Certain characters (*cough* Diego *cough* Cole *cough*) seem to be rolling a lot of intimidate. Since neither of you have the skill it'd cost 3 xp to buy a dot and another 6 (for a total of 9) if you wanted to go crazy and buy two dots.

If you're looking for stuff to buy then you might want to check out the Character Thread. The Key Pools box on the top of each character post has some of the die pools that I wind up using the most frequently for you. It's not exhaustive, but at the very least all of your disciplines and a few more things are there.

You don't need to spend all your xp of course. You can buy bank it for later.


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## Bloodweaver1 (May 23, 2008)

Very Cool. 
I was thinking of Cole sinking a bunch of points into intimidate. 

Character Update Summary: 
Gained EXP: 14
Spent EXP: 9
Remaining EXP: 5

Intimidation: 00

-Blood


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## Graf (May 27, 2008)

Blood,

Updated your sheet.
(Sorry for the delay, RL was hectic)


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## industrygothica (May 27, 2008)

I think I'm going to increase Beth to Auspex ***

That should take care of her 15 points, if I figure correctly.


-IG


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## Graf (May 28, 2008)

You had Auspex 2 before?
You have to pay the points at -each- level. 

(That's the sucky part of starting with one dot in each), if you want' since you never used shadow's touch (three people have it and only Diego uses it... why? I have no idea.... but anyway....) you we could move that dot to Auspex ** and then spend the 15 for Auspex 3.

You'd overlap with Archer, but he doesn't seem to use Auspex ** anyway.


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## industrygothica (May 28, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> You had Auspex 2 before?
> You have to pay the points at -each- level.
> 
> (That's the sucky part of starting with one dot in each), if you want' since you never used shadow's touch (three people have it and only Diego uses it... why? I have no idea.... but anyway....) you we could move that dot to Auspex ** and then spend the 15 for Auspex 3.
> ...




Ok, I didn't realize that we had to pay at each level like that.  So going from Auspex * to Auspex *** would actually cost 25 xp then, right?

That being said, I think I'd like to keep Obfuscate*.  Just give me Auspex** (10 xp, right?) and I'll bank the other 5 for now.


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## Graf (May 28, 2008)

Yeah. Disciplines are expensive like that.

OK! Auspex ** is also really good.

(I used to think Obfuscate * was lame, then I realized it lets you carry shotguns/dead bodies around in public without anyone noticing...)


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## Festy_Dog (May 29, 2008)

I assure you, Graf, once Archer has something in hand that warrants the use of Obfuscate (like getting his suitcase by those guards earlier in the evening) then he'll make use of it.

And I didn't realize I had access to Archer's second dot of Auspex yet, did I miss the post where it became available?

I'm going to spend most of the experience on the advancements I would have taken from the beginning, as long as it's alright by you:

Skills:
Craft * (3 xp)

Talents:
Language (Arabic) * (2 xp)
Language (Mandarin) * (2 xp)
Resources * (2 xp)

Exp Remaining: 5/14

Should I invest the points of Mentor into another talent, as it hasn't seen any use yet, or do you have a mentor in the works for Archer?


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## Graf (May 29, 2008)

you had it from the cell during your prequil. I thought I hinted about using it a couple of times. But eventually I was like _his choice have to stop nagging _

I thought people hadn't used tos at Celeste's. 

Re: Backgrouncs (mentor, etc)
 I feel the need to point out that I said it'd take some roleplaying + weeks to get those active. And also suggested people not buy them. 
It's been one (admittedly long) night. 
In your case you were told to go visit your mentor by LB on weekly basis IIRC. He's not the sort to come see you. 
But no you can't have the points back.


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## Graf (May 29, 2008)

Xp choices look fine.


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## Graf (May 30, 2008)

Anyway for some reason I thought you were holding off on using Auspex ** the whole night. I assume you still want the second dot but if you'd like to swap it for something else that would be fine with me.
(Not that that's a very good offer really, but it's the only thing I can think of to offer).

Going offline for the weekend. See you all Monday.


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## Graf (Jun 4, 2008)

So my thinking is that you instinctively know what the colors you see mean. 'cause you have the highest auspex in the city (I think) so there's really nobody who's going to teach you.

I'm thinking "calm shot through with happy" is like "relieved".


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## Festy_Dog (Jun 4, 2008)

That's fine by me.


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## industrygothica (Jun 15, 2008)

Things have been slow around here.  Everything ok?


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## Graf (Jun 16, 2008)

Slow is an understatement. My fault of course.
I've been struggling a bit with another game (keep it/shelve it, etc)

(and fatigue -- baby with sniffles likes to sleep on daddy...). 

I was also trying to think about a way to "turn on" people's backgrounds. I haven't really though... I didn't originally plan on it...
And... OnlytheStrong has stopped posting on at least two other games he was part of... So it's likely that he'll join Biggs in the realm of NPC-dom.

I'll launch the next night today.

Sorry for the delay and thanks for your patience.


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## Festy_Dog (Jun 16, 2008)

Don't worry about it, I'm up to my ears in assessment at present. I'm able to get here less and less at the present, so my posting is going to be pretty slow for a while yet.


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## Graf (Jun 16, 2008)

Obviously, I'm not in a position to object to slow posting.

As we can so we shall go, I suppose.


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## industrygothica (Jun 16, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Obviously, I'm not in a position to object to slow posting.
> 
> As we can so we shall go, I suppose.




I am the absolute LAST person to complain about slow posting.  I think my players in TLB are about ready to lynch me I've been taking so long.  And all I have to blame is laziness and impatience.

Though it seems as if EN World is cooperating with me today.  Too bad I updated yesterday, or they might get something new today.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Jun 16, 2008)

A slow pace works for me. I will respond shortly. 

-Blood


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## Bloodweaver1 (Jun 19, 2008)

I am taking a vacation/moving across the country and will out of internet access for about 14 days. If possible please NPC my characters accordingly. Thank you. 


-Blood


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## Graf (Jun 19, 2008)

OK! 

Good luck with the move!


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## Graf (Jul 28, 2008)

I've been stalling and stalling but I think it's time to fess up to the fact that I've not been able to prioritize this game at all. I knew that 4e was coming out and I expected that it'd occupy a lot of my time, but I've found it's taken over my "rping brainspace" almost completely. 

And I don't think that will change any time in the future.

I'm really not sure what to say about it. Other than that I'm sorry.


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