# How do you tie someone up!?



## Garthanos (Jun 25, 2009)

fairly straight forward question are there RAW for tying somebody up? The only thing I can find is escaping from restraints with Acrobatics.

Also are there any spells which restrain... or cage the enemy, sleep is the closest effect I could think of.

Do I need a new class for net or whip fighter... (gladiators)?


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## Thundershield (Jun 25, 2009)

So far in my games the closest thing to being tied up I've had was one of the characters captured by the bad guy so the rest of the party had to go save her, and when they found her she was chained to the wall.

I ruled that as Restrained (seeing how the chains were about 3 feet). The player felt chained up and nobody complained, so I figure that worked well.

I would like to add, though, that rendering the players helpless is rarely "fun" unless they're freed fast or can free themselves relatively easily. Sitting around and having to figure out what obscure plan you've detailed for them to discover to free themselves is boring and often considered railroading.


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## Oompa (Jun 25, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> fairly straight forward question are there RAW for tying somebody up? The only thing I can find is escaping from restraints with Acrobatics.
> 
> Also are there any spells which restrain... or cage the enemy, sleep is the closest effect I could think of.
> 
> Do I need a new class for net or whip fighter... (gladiators)?




Easy way --> Auto Succes if in need of a simple knot
Hard way --> Int check to know a knot, Str check to make it tight


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## Squizzle (Jun 25, 2009)

Tell the DM "I'm going to cut 10 or so feet off of the 50 I'm carrying, and tie that guy up".


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## Klaus (Jun 25, 2009)

House-rule:

Dexterity check sets the DC for any escape attempts. A character with training in Nature (from hunting), Athletics (from mountaineering), Dungeoneering (from spelunking) or with a sailing background adds +5 to his Dexterity check.


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## Mahali (Jun 25, 2009)

Tying a creature up is a plot device.

The Restrained condition isn't that bad and it's up to the DM if powers can be activated while bound/gagged ect...


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## smartdot (Jun 25, 2009)

The first power that come to my mind when restraining is mentioned is the the fighter 23 encounter "Cage of Chains". Boiled down, it essentially lets you attack, then if your wielding a flail, and are adjacent to the target at the end of your turn, they are restrained till the start of your next turn.


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## lukelightning (Jun 25, 2009)

You can use the history skill to tie people up. "We've captured you, and, as is customary ever since the beginning of adventuring, you are tied up."

Luckily you can also use history to escape. "As is traditional, there is always a sharp scrap of metal or shard of stone to rub the bonds against to break out."


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## Radiating Gnome (Jun 25, 2009)

Consider making the effort to get out a skill challenge -- it could take a variety of different skills (acrobatics to wriggle free, athletics to burst free, thievery to manage to untie the knots).  Then you can decide that a "round" in the skill challenge requires one minute of game time. 

Another interesting wrinkle: rather than ending the challenge at 3 failures (I mean, would the PC really stop trying?), you can allow an unlimited number of failures, but make the DC +1 higher every time the PC fails a check (as the knots get tighter and tighter, etc.) 

Set the DC at an appropriate number -- probably at least the hard DC in the (revised) DMG.  

-rg


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## Garthanos (Jun 25, 2009)

Klaus said:


> House-rule:
> 
> Dexterity check sets the DC for any escape attempts. A character with training in Nature (from hunting), Athletics (from mountaineering), Dungeoneering (from spelunking) or with a sailing background adds +5 to his Dexterity check.



I do have multiple reasons for the question... PC's wanting to tie npcs was the first in mind.

I like this one for the non-power/ie non combat..  version of an I tie them up action... (what conditions are required) 

Can one advance from grappled... to restrained.(tied up)?

Cage of chains seems a good one to pattern after for creating a whip user... and maybe even the net wielder... some other powers with pull effects seem whip related ;-).. 

Perhaps a nice web spell... we have one of those dont we?

If zero hit points can mean unconcious perhaps that can be expanded...


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## DracoSuave (Jun 25, 2009)

NPCs tying up players:  Make it part of a skill challenge in order to break out of their imprisonment.  Acrobatics or Athletics vs a number.  Of course, this doesn't cover the cell door, sneaking past guards to get one's equipment, etc.  That's why it's only -part.-  Reward creativity.

Players tying up NPCs:  If you don't care if they escape, ask for a roll of the dice, go 'mmhmmm' and them move on.  If you -do- care, ask for a roll of the dice, go 'mmhmmm' and then carry on as planned.


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## Mort_Q (Jun 25, 2009)

*my take*

You can tie up helpless/cooperating creatures, provided you have reasonable equipment to do so.

If creatures aren't helpless/cooperating, make them helpless/cooperate.


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## Saeviomagy (Jun 26, 2009)

You say "we've defeated the foe, I'd like to tie him up now".

He stays tied up until he's freed, or frees himself with an acrobatics check.

While he's tied up, the players can probably cherry pick whatever conditions they'd like to apply: immobilized, restrained, blinded, deafened, slowed, dazed, stunned (with the special proviso that stunned doesn't prevent escape attempts) etc.

After all: any of those is significantly less effective than "dead" which was the other choice they had when they took him out.

My goal is to not punish characters who choose to capture instead of kill.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 26, 2009)

Knock 'em out. Tie 'em up.


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## Mircoles (Jun 26, 2009)

Duct tape and lots of it. A bit ouchy when removed though.


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## Garthanos (Jun 26, 2009)

Mort_Q said:


> You can tie up helpless/cooperating creatures, provided you have reasonable equipment to do so.
> 
> If creatures aren't helpless/cooperating, make them helpless/cooperate.




This works for me for most cases... fight them till they are bloodied or unconcious, after they hit bloodied do an intimidation to make them cooperate... add in a bit of custom DC calculating for difficulty to get out restrained like one of the other.

It seems like maybe you ought to be able to tie them up if the enemy is unable to perform actions (stunned, unconcious, petrified) and you can spend a standard action  (taking longer tying to increase the DC)

I did find there are a few spells/powers which can result in temporarily restrained conditions -> can you tie somebody up who is "restrained?"
The restrained condition allows somebody to attack so mayhaps not.


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## Lizard (Jun 27, 2009)

Squizzle said:


> Tell the DM "I'm going to cut 10 or so feet off of the 50 I'm carrying, and tie that guy up".




And hope he's not an Eladrin.
Or pretty much any non martial class.
We've taken to blindfolding prisoners. This cuts down on teleportation, and prevents non-Martial types from getting LOS. (No good with close burst powers, some of which can arguably burn ropes. Can't remember if Blast powers need LOS or not...)

Short of a skill challenge (a bit of overkill), there's no real way to determine how WELL you tied someone up. You can, I suppose, say "If the person tying the ropes is Trained in Nature or Dungeoneering, it's a Hard DC to escape, otherwise, it's medium.", so there's some semblance of a rule.

The other way is to go with drama: If you knock someone to 0 hit points, he's "Defeated". You let him live, but you have made him a non-threat for the duration of the scene, including an interrogation SC, or what have you. While he may, by RAW, be able to keep fighting even in ropes, he won't, because you "beat" him and so are entitled, dramatically, to have him nullified as a threat until he's out of your sight.


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## MarkB (Jun 27, 2009)

I'd make it a Thievery check to Restrain a helpless foe, which sets the DC for an opposed Acrobatics check to escape.

This check DC assumes that you're using improvised material such as strips of clothing to make the restraints. Using rope, chains or manacles provides a +5 bonus to the Thievery check.


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## Garthanos (Jun 27, 2009)

Lizard said:


> The other way is to go with drama: If you knock someone to 0 hit points, he's "Defeated". You let him live, but you have made him a non-threat for the duration of the scene, including an interrogation SC, or what have you. While he may, by RAW, be able to keep fighting even in ropes, he won't, because you "beat" him and so are entitled, dramatically, to have him nullified as a threat until he's out of your sight.




Yes I have considered that zero hit points does mean exhausted and completely demoralized  not to mention completely out of luck as much if not more than unconscious.. In some ways unconscious or dead are just conditions you can freely apply at this point, theoretically other conditions might apply...  one might gain the "full effect" of whatever attack power drove the adversary to this state (while that is usually boring ole death)


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## 77IM (Jul 3, 2009)

I require a Dexterity check.  The result +5, is the DC to escape.  You can Take 10 and Aid Another on the check (up to 2 people or so can Aid).

 -- 77IM


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## LostSoul (Jul 3, 2009)

The DM asks the player to describe the action the PC is taking.

Based on that description, the DM comes up with some way of resolving it.

Here are a bunch of ways:

"My PC is a woodsman, so he's used to making snares and crap like that to catch and restrain animals.  So I hog-tie him."

A Nature check sets the DC to escape.  (Simple opposed roll.)
A Nature check +5 sets the DC to escape. (It's harder to escape than it is to tie someone up.)
A Nature check +7 sets the DC to escape.  (It's harder to escape than it is to tie someone up... and hog-tying him?  That would be hard to get out of.  Another +2.)
The player rolls Nature (+2/+5/+7) against a DC set by the DM (based on the NPC's level); failure means that the target can escape when it wants.
The NPC can't escape.
The PC just fails. (This is probably because he's a shape-shifter or something.)

"I tie him up.  My PC is an academic so he doesn't know how.  Um... but he once read a book on how to do it..."

A Dex check sets the DC to escape.
A Dex check +5 sets the DC.
As above, but use Int.

etc.


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## MarkB (Jul 3, 2009)

I'd have thought that tying someone up would fall squarely under the umbrella of Thievery. If you make it a Thievery check, that makes it a straight Dex check for anyone untrained in the skill.


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## Garthanos (Jul 4, 2009)

MarkB said:


> I'd have thought that tying someone up would fall squarely under the umbrella of Thievery. If you make it a Thievery check, that makes it a straight Dex check for anyone untrained in the skill.




I am quite certain more guards... tie people up than thieves. Not saying guards couldn't have thieving skills to help them stop thieves but... As far ti being in that skill set... Nature boy rangers... cubscouts ... animal handlers.... farmers and others very unlikely to have thieving and more likely to have  Nature are the people who seem most likely to have tying. 

So we atleast have Nature and  Thieving as options it isnt at all obvious this comes in under any pervue. Do upright sailor types have any skill at all that will identify them.(Pirates can come under the pervue of thieving as well). 

Using Dex is alright as long as one might be able to use something else and get better results.


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