# Build help: Cheese me a Changeling!



## Persiflage (Aug 20, 2010)

Hiya folks,

I'm shortly to begin a new campaign, run by a novice DM.  She's a very long-established member of my main gaming group who wants a crack at running a game so I'll be taking on the mantle of player.

I'm having some thoughts of breaking completely with my usual habits and playing a character who's neither a full caster nor a ranged specialist... that's right, I'm actually going to run a melee PC for the first time since 3.5 was released.

From the few hints I've had about the forthcoming campaign, access to things like spellbooks and magic items is going to be, at best, sporadic.  We're starting at 3rd level in - and I quote - "the middle of nowhere".

Hmph.

As several people have noticed, we're not a gaming group scared of a slightly increased power level over the core game.  In fact, I think it would be more accurate to say that we're a group of slavering cheesehounds: we're all playing the same game the same way so it works for us and we love it.

However, I now find myself in unfamiliar territory; to whit, attempting to create a walking, talking slab of finest Stilton that inflicts damage on all and sundry by the use of undignified fisticuffs instead of the ritual-humiliation-by-battlefield-control that has been my staple for such a long time.

I may well have to create a second character to make up the numbers, but if I do I'll holler on a separate thread.  For now, I'll concentrate on creating this melee build, and believe me when I say that the temptation to just "be a cleric" is strong enough that I might not be able to resist without help  

Due to the aforementioned lack of ready access to items, I want to build a pretty self-contained character.  Inspired by other threads here, I've been thinking about creating a shapeshifting melee brute: right now, I have some vague ideas about a wildshape-based Changeling (for the early shapechanger subtype) Druid (or Wildshape Ranger)/Warshaper/Nature's Warrior/Master of Many Forms type combo.  Does that sound viable?  Has anyone here actually played this?

*Important House Rules:*

*One Feat Every Level:*  This is in addition to any bonus feats granted by class or race

*Early Qualification:*  No, I'm not talking about the Precocious Apprentice feat.  The rule is, you can apply the acquisition of skill points, feats, BAB and other functions of levelling-up (but not spellcasting) in any order you like in order to qualify for a PrC at level-up, provided both your old class and your new class would allow you to meet the prerequisites.

In other words, we've deliberately and with malice aforethought broken this rule from the section on Prestige Classes:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> The rules for level  advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement  is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.




We've said "nuts to that".  

Demonstrating by example, if you want to enter a PrC that has "10 ranks in Spellcraft" as a prerequisite, you can get in at 7th level by applying an increase in skill points first, provided one of your previous classes _and_ the prestige class itself grant you access to the Spellcraft skill and enough skill points to bridge the gap.  Same applies to feats: if you're missing all but one, you can choose the feat at the same level as you enter the class.  Likewise, if the entry requirement is "BAB +5", your current BAB is +4, your previous class would have gotten you to +5 this level and the PrC gives you +1 BAB at 1st level, you can use that +1 to qualify for the class that requires it.

Damn, I hope that made more sense than I think it did  

Naturally, I want the build to be playable and useful through every level.  We're unlikely ever to see any territory north of 13th level or so, so I need to absolutely maximise my combat schtick throughout the 11-ish levels I actually expect to play at.

Any and all positive ideas welcome: can anyone here help?  Pretty please?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 20, 2010)

If magic items are hard to come by, you want to play a caster.  Preferably a sorcerer or druid, they can deal without items the best of all the core classes.  If the magic item situation is REALLY punitive, Soulknife (the uber-terrible-makes-the-monk-look-powerful class from the Psionics Handbook) might even be attractive if you're dead set on being a warrior type.  I'm actually thinking up a Kalashtar Vow of Poverty Soulknife/Kensai/Warmind at the moment...

Druid's certainly viable, but there's not much point in being a Changeling, then.  Any race with ability boosts useful to a Druid would be better.  Unless getting the shapechanger subtype earlier than you get wildshape is critically important somehow.  Warshaper requires BAB +4 (level 6+ if you're not full BAB), so...


----------



## Persiflage (Aug 20, 2010)

No, that's the thing; I don't _want_ to play a caster.  I want to play a flexible character but I want to do something different this time out rather than have spellcasting as my main schtick.

I probably will end up playing a full caster as a second character in any case, but I want to design at least one that isn't built around spells-per-day.  Changeling is because a) permanent Warshaper bonuses (if I go that route), b) Racial Emulation, and c) a non-magical disguise over the top of whatever my favoured humanoid "adventuring form" is for that level.  

I'm prepared to ditch changeling from the concept, but I still rather like the idea of a creature-for-all-occasions character.  Like Manimal but with better effects and no inexplicable requirement to be locked in a wardrobe in order to change  

I'm starting to think that the whole idea just isn't practicable.    Master of Many Forms doesn't really deliver its potential until 12th level at the earliest, and that's a hell of a long time to wait.

Maybe if I can sell the DM on a new Druid variant...  Hmmm.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 20, 2010)

Persiflage said:


> No, that's the thing; I don't _want_ to play a caster.  I want to play a flexible character but I want to do something different this time out rather than have spellcasting as my main schtick.




I realize that.  Just pointing out, this really really doesn't sound like the ideal game for that.  I have a bunch of build ideas in my head right now that involve like 5 multiclasses, but will not be using them because all of the new games I seem to be able to find right now are Pathfinder.  PF means I'd lose a bonus hp or skill point every level doing that, and I'd still suffer the eternal hell of medium BAB multiclassing (+0 at level 1.  Always.) without the sweet base saves boost.  I could still do the build(s), but it's such a ridiculously bad idea I'd rather just wait until a game where the concept can actually shine.  How badly do you want to not play a caster is what it comes down to.  Well that and, "is your friend seriously going to run the game as described?"



Persiflage said:


> Changeling is because a) permanent Warshaper bonuses (if I go that route)




Definitely nice, though hour/level Wildshape, for example, is close enough to permanent, as is the PH2 variant Druid.  I don't think by strict RAW the PH2 variant qualifies, because it's an alternate form ability that isn't wild shape, and Warshaper specifically says alternate form isn't good enough.  But that's stupid, because after it was printed, Wild Shape, specifically called out as qualifying, got changed to be an alternate form ability.



Persiflage said:


> b) Racial Emulation,




What exact benefit will this be doing for you?  I've never found a reason it was worth a precious feat thus far.  I'm sure there's some sort of cheesy "x race only" item to abuse, but I don't usually bother with things like that.



Persiflage said:


> and c) a non-magical disguise over the top of whatever my favoured humanoid "adventuring form" is for that level.




Nonmagical as in can't be dispelled.  But still Su, so magical in the "boned in an Antimagic Field" sense.



Persiflage said:


> I'm prepared to ditch changeling from the concept, but I still rather like the idea of a creature-for-all-occasions character.  Like Manimal but with better effects and no inexplicable requirement to be locked in a wardrobe in order to change




Changeling doesn't change clothing, so you still need Shiftweave, Hat of Disguise, Glamered armor, or a wardrobe. 



Persiflage said:


> I'm starting to think that the whole idea just isn't practicable.    Master of Many Forms doesn't really deliver its potential until 12th level at the earliest, and that's a hell of a long time to wait.




Might not be, sucks when the facts of the game you're joining prevent you from making what you want, but it happens.  Have you asked the DM what level to roughly expect to reach?  I always try to find that out.  If the game has no definitive end point, as what rate of levelling she would like to follow.  Helps you plan for what is feasible and what just isn't.

You could stil probably make it work without being a caster.  Warshaper alone gives an extra attack, +4 str and con, and Fast Healing if you go that far into it, making you pretty self-sufficient on its own.  A class like Kensai to enhance your own weapon(s) with xp alone becomes much more valuable, and possibly a class like Cabinet Trickster JUST to turn your Changeling ability into actual Alter Self, so you can then get a nice natural attack form and enhance them all with Kensai.


----------



## Andras (Aug 20, 2010)

When I played a Changeling, he was a Monk 6, Warshaper 4, Pious Templar X (FR-Ilmater); we stopped at 14th level. Basic unarmed strike was +20/3d8+10, 10' reach
Feats: True Believer, Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, Imp Natural Atk, WFocus, Extra Smite, Wpn Spec, Adaptable Flanker

ACF: Holy Strike, Prayerful Meditation (both from Complete Champion)


----------



## Persiflage (Aug 23, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> I realize that.  Just pointing out, this really really doesn't sound like the ideal game for that. [snip] How badly do you want to not play a caster is what it comes down to.  Well that and, "is your friend seriously going to run the game as described?"




"Quite badly" and "yes".  I was really looking forward to the concept: it's so rarely I get a chance to play compared to how often I DM that I'm loathe to let an appealing idea slip past.



> (Permanent Warshaper via Changeling) Definitely nice, though hour/level Wildshape, for example, is close enough to permanent, as is the PH2 variant Druid.  I don't think by strict RAW the PH2 variant qualifies, because it's an alternate form ability that isn't wild shape, and Warshaper specifically says alternate form isn't good enough.  But that's stupid, because after it was printed, Wild Shape, specifically called out as qualifying, got changed to be an alternate form ability.




Someone in my group has recently played a PH2 variant Druid.  Warshaper was allowed to qualify, but... the variant ability doesn't synergise with anything useful.  There are just too many things you can't do with it, like Natural Spell and the various Wildshape feats  



> (Racial Emulation)  What exact benefit will this be doing for you?  I've never found a reason it was worth a precious feat thus far.  I'm sure there's some sort of cheesy "x race only" item to abuse, but I don't usually bother with things like that.




Remember the rules we're playing with: we get a feat every level!  This tends to lead to people taking the occasional feat because it's cool rather than because it's optimal.  But yes, there's some item cheese that can be pulled off, and some other stuff involving certain-race-only prestige classes and/or racial substitution levels.  Mostly though, it's just cool  



> (Permanent nonmagical disguise)  Nonmagical as in can't be dispelled.  But still Su, so magical in the "boned in an Antimagic Field" sense.




Well... _yes_, but if someone has whipped out an antimagic field, you've got bigger problems than random spellcasters in town detecting your _disguise self_, and that's what I want the illusion for!

We're starting at 3rd level and playing to maybe 13th or 14th level; I expect to encounter an NPC-generated antimagic field maybe once or twice before the campaign ends.  AMF's screw over nearly everyone but the changeling's disguise ability is going to be useful a hell of a lot more often than not.

[







> Changeling doesn't change clothing, so you still need Shiftweave, Hat of Disguise, Glamered armor, or a wardrobe.




Yeah, we're all about spare clothes in these parts.



> Have you asked the DM what level to roughly expect to reach?




As per my original post, I don't expect to see anything north of 13th level, 14th at the outside.  As such, a lot of the handbooks out there are useless to me, as they seem to be written under the supposition that you'll be playing through to high levels.  I want something playable all the way!



> You could stil probably make it work without being a caster.  Warshaper alone gives an extra attack, +4 str and con, and Fast Healing if you go that far into it, making you pretty self-sufficient on its own.  A class like Kensai to enhance your own weapon(s) with xp alone becomes much more valuable, and possibly a class like Cabinet Trickster JUST to turn your Changeling ability into actual Alter Self, so you can then get a nice natural attack form and enhance them all with Kensai.




All good stuff, but it really won't come into its own until too late in the game.  I think I'm going to have to ditch the concept unless anyone has any bright ideas  

It's a pity: I really liked the idea...


----------



## Azaar (Aug 26, 2010)

Having played a changeling before, they have a number of things going for them.  Class-wise... Warlock, for what it's worth, is a good one.  Not a dedicated caster, but nice ranged support (and some invocations, like Vitriolic Blast for acid damage and bypassing SR on the eldritch blast, are just too good to pass up).

One of my favorite class combinations, though, has been (perhaps sadly, perhaps not) mostly a caster:  Swashbuckler/Beguiler, specifically, with a dash of Fighter thrown in.  Beguiler is certainly not good for melee types with its low BAB; however, the synergies between Swashbuckler and Beguiler are very nice and not to be underestimated.  High Int and Cha are boons, and the Beguiler's emphasis on Enchantment and Illusion (both schools that I've developed a keen appreciation for as I've played this blended concept) make for a very intriguing caster that shares certain elements with the Rogue (and Warmage with the whole Advanced Learning) for some of its special abilities.

I do tend towards predominantly caster for something like this:  Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 2 / Beguiler 15 nets you most of the spellcasting ability of the Beguiler (and with Practiced Spellcasting, you can cast as a 19th level Beguiler, even with just a 15th-level spell selection).  Changeling doesn't worry about a certain specific class as the primary for XP penalties, so Swashbuckler and Fighter being one level apart make it a decent choice.

Your BAB will be +12 / +7 / +2 -- barely mid-range between low and mid-BAB straight class, and saves will be Fort +11 / Ref +6 / Will +10 base (not including Grace +1, which is a competence bonus to Reflex saves while wearing light or no armor).  That's most of the bad news, really.

On the upside:  Armor Proficiency with all armor types (if you ditch Grace +1 from Swashbuckler, you can take the Battle Caster feat from _Complete Arcane_ and wear mithral full plate).  Weapon Proficiency in all simple and melee.  Shield (though shield is rarely something I worry about, for the most part) except tower.  Trapfinding as a rogue, surprise casting (which is a spellcasting version of sneak attack), advanced learning... insightful strike from Swashbuckler (Int bonus as damage bonus to light melee weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse -- itself a bonus feat from Swashbuckler at level 1).

If you really want to focus more on the melee aspect and still have some caster utility with Enchantment and Illusion:  Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 2 / Beguiler 5 / Eldritch Knight 10.  BAB +18 / +13 / +8 / +3, base saves Fort +14 / Ref +5 / Will +8.  Still have the fighter and swashbuckler perks (like Grace +1, free Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike), trapfinding from Beguiler, and can still wind up casting and spell selection as a 14th-level Beguiler by 20th level (18th-level casting with Practiced Spellcaster) and a bonus fighter feat from Eldritch Knight 1.

Not sure if you will care for those options, but I figured I could toss them out there for you to see.


----------



## anest1s (Aug 26, 2010)

What about swordsage/crusader/warblade from Tome of Battle (The Book of Nine Swords? I really like them...They have cool abilities - though I cant recall if maneuvers are (ex) or (su) (??).


----------



## Azaar (Aug 27, 2010)

I'd forgotten about the Tome of Battle -- of the three, Swordsage is easily the most versatile and capable, even though they have only the mid-range BAB.


----------



## limejuicepowders (Aug 27, 2010)

This isn't specific to changling (though it fits together nicely), but ninja/warlock would be fun. level warlock to 3 and take the darkness power, and demonic sight - allowing you to see in darkness, even magical darkness. after that, take ninja levels. between darkness at will, the ninja's ki powers, and the changling disguise self, your one slippery SOB, adding sudden strike on virtually every hit. eldritch blast for some range, daggers or w/e for close in work. i think it would be fun. 

alternatively, warblade/fighter kicks ass, even without magical items. warblade 4 fighter 2 w/ TWF, ITWF, and the iron heart special feat can dish out over 100 damage every other round, plus all of the melee manu.


----------



## Persiflage (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks all for the suggestions!  Are there any feats out there that allow a Warlock to retain his Eldritch Blast progression, a la Practised Spellcaster?

I'm extremely familiar with the Tome of Battle: I once reviewed the entire book, maneuver by maneuver and feat by feat.  My last damage-dealing character was a halfling Rogue/Ninja/Swordsage/Fighter/Master Thrower/Warblade who at 9th level could easily dish out over a hundred points of damage a round against most enemies when buffed and going all-out.  His main problem was running out of things to throw mid-combat  

This is one of the reasons I wanted to play something like a shape-changing warrior; for pure damage output, I honestly think my last character is pretty much unimprovable.  Charging builds can do more, but not every round.  

My other character was an awesome Focussed Conjurer/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus build; an uber battlefield-control specialist fond of Belt of Battle abuse and with the Abrupt Jaunt ACF.  Again, I honestly can't think of a way to improve on the concept so I want to do something different from either.

Again, thanks to everyone for your suggestions: I'm ready to hear anything interesting you can come up with, Changeling or not


----------



## Azaar (Aug 27, 2010)

Feats?  I don't think so, at least not at non-epic levels, unless you house-rule Practiced Spellcaster to work in that fashion for the Warlock.  That, or show your DM the gestalt rules in _Unearthed Arcana_ and see if your DM will allow you to make gestalt characters.


----------



## Persiflage (Aug 27, 2010)

I might try for "Practised Blaster" - good call!

Unfortunately, gestalt rules were the first thing I asked about...  for some curious reason, our putative DM doesn't feel up to handling what we might do if such a thing were permitted


----------

