# CMP: On its way out?



## iwarrior-poet (Feb 7, 2007)

My prediction---CMP will not be around within six months. Why you ask? Here's a few reasons:
1. No substantive update on their web page for close to two months now.
2. No apparent revenue stream---i.e. No current Chargen product, their much awaited vaporware RPGFoundry is now two years past due with not even a hint of a release date. 
3. They are only selling PCGen datasets from non WoTC publishers---I am guessing that brings in about $.02/month.
4. They seem to be plagued by Webserver issues...
5. Their "We are hard at work, just you wait and see!!!" attitude wore thin about 18 months ago (particularly when one of their primary contractors is admitting to being mostly busy with dayjob and education commitments---may be true but does little to inspire customer loyalty and interest...)
6. WoTC is allegedly poised to begin production on its own web-based Chargen/Campaign manager software---a good likelihood that most consumers will wait for this product before purchasing virtually anything else

I am not so sure about other for-profit Chargens like DMGenie and Hero builder (at least they have current products), but I am sure they will take a big hit from WoTC's impending monster.

This (oddly enough) plays squarely into PCGen's hands. Since they are free they will certainly stay around----now if they would only create a gui based tool that would allow for creation of Prestige Classes and Feats...And not run sooooo sloooowwwllyyy
but I have already addressed that elsewhere...

(edited to address Barak's post)


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## Thaniel (Feb 7, 2007)

To be fair, there has never been a deadline for RPGFoundry. They have never set one, therefore how can they be 2 years late?


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 7, 2007)

Thaniel said:
			
		

> To be fair, there has never been a deadline for RPGFoundry. They have never set one, therefore how can they be 2 years late?




Yea, CMP has been known for their "We never really promised you anything." stance---and then using levity to lighten any potential response.
That being said, they had several previous 'estimated release dates' that were powerfully blown past. So many, in fact, that I don't think they will ever use one again. They also reneged on the dataset trade-in for RPGFoundry. I blame that one mostly on WoTC (when they didn't renew CMP's license to produce datasets)---but one of the maxims in biz is, "Don't make promises you cannot keep."


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## kingpaul (Feb 7, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> but one of the maxims in biz is, "Don't make promises you cannot keep."



And, from their posts, they had buy-in from WotC at the time they made the initial offer. The buy-in disappeared.


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 7, 2007)

Bottom line: Don't make a promise you can't keep. 

They should have either bound up the dataset exchange in their initial contract (allowing them to do trade in PCGen/E-Tools datasets), with some sort of condition/clause that allowed them to make good on their promise---or they should have produced RPGFoundry before the end of their contract so that they could have done the exchange.


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## 2WS-Steve (Feb 7, 2007)

Have to say that I'm not sure we'll ever see RPG Foundry. 

Every week I check to see if there are any updates and every week there's some excuse as to why there aren't any updates. When you're saying that there's no update because one of the bosses' computer went down, and that goes on for a couple weeks, we know there's some other reason. If you're involved in computers, you'll find some other way to check and respond to email.


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## 2WS-Steve (Feb 7, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> And, from their posts, they had buy-in from WotC at the time they made the initial offer. The buy-in disappeared.




If that's true then both WotC and CMP would be vulnerable to a class-action lawsuit when RPG Foundry comes out.


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 7, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> If that's true then both WotC and CMP would be vulnerable to a class-action lawsuit when RPG Foundry comes out.



Now there's a thought...


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## BarakO (Feb 7, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> (particularly when one of their founders is admitting to being mostly busy with dayjob and education commitments---may be true but does little to inspire customer loyalty and interest...)




Erm...  Please get your facts straight.

I'm not a founder, I'm a contractor for CMP (granted I have been with them from the beginning), and *I'm* the one that has become busy with school and other work (note I've always had other work, I just decided to go back to school for a second degree recently -- well, a year ago).

And I posted that notice so people would be aware that (as bug-stomper for the data) there might be a bit of a lag between a report and it's being acknowledged and/or fixed.  It is in no way an indication of anything relating to the status of RPGF *or* CMP.


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 7, 2007)

OK, I'll edit my post. Care to respond to any of the other points raised? I just realized that a class action suit would only bring about my prediction... ah well...


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## BarakO (Feb 7, 2007)

Not my place.

As I said, I'm a contractor.


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## Glyfair (Feb 8, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> Yea, CMP has been known for their "We never really promised you anything." stance---and then using levity to lighten any potential response.




Well, I know the Eberron Interactive Atlas was due out at GenCon and then was announced as not being ready until probably September.  ProFantasy said back in June or July that the maps were done at that time.


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## karianna (Feb 8, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> This (oddly enough) plays squarely into PCGen's hands. Since they are free they will certainly stay around----now if they would only create a gui based tool that would allow for creation of Prestige Classes and Feats...And not run sooooo sloooowwwllyyy
> but I have already addressed that elsewhere...
> (edited to address Barak's post)




You'll be pleased to know that one of our senior code monkeys has been tackling the speed issues with a nice wee code profiler.  Start up and source loading times have decreased dramatically in the latest alpha builds (this is for the 5.12 release coming up).  We'll keep improving the general performance, we know it's the 2nd major bugbear of the app


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## 2WS-Steve (Feb 8, 2007)

karianna said:
			
		

> You'll be pleased to know that one of our senior code monkeys has been tackling the speed issues with a nice wee code profiler.  Start up and source loading times have decreased dramatically in the latest alpha builds (this is for the 5.12 release coming up).  We'll keep improving the general performance, we know it's the 2nd major bugbear of the app




For me speed is actually the main bugbear of the app -- though I keep hoping that one of these computer upgrade cycles (go core2duo!) will eventually render that moot.

since you're here I'd like to mention two things:

1) For some reason it really bogs down with high level characters for me. I make a wraith + Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic Theurge 5 and just selecting the classes to add caster levels to really bogs down. This is surprising because loading scads of data sources doesn't slow it down as much and I'd think that would require a lot more data mangling.

2) It'd be nice is PCGEN had some plain message boards of their own in addition to the mailing lists. For part-timers like me, message boards seem to work better. The yahoo archives are pretty hard to scan through and I'm already subscribed to too many mailing lists for sundry other purposes.


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## Mercule (Feb 8, 2007)

I've been waiting for RPGF for some time.  I really haven't had any faith in its release for quite a while, though.  Currently, I'm just hoping CMP sticks around long enough for at least one more update of PCGen.

On the other hand, PCGen is looking stronger all the time.  If it speeds up quite a bit and some of the apparent memory leak/rendering issues disappear, I'll be happy.  I'm pretty comfortable editing LST files by hand, but I sure wouldn't sneeze at a slick editor, either.  My players will be happy if the GUI gets a bit of polish and there was a character sheet that looked pretty much exactly like HeroForge.


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## thpr (Feb 8, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> 1) For some reason it really bogs down with high level characters for me. I make a wraith + Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic Theurge 5 and just selecting the classes to add caster levels to really bogs down. This is surprising because loading scads of data sources doesn't slow it down as much and I'd think that would require a lot more data mangling.




Well, as the code monkey who happens to be running that code profiler to improve performance, I can say there *is* an explanation for why this occurs (the issue is both source count and character complexity - the latter being a worse problem, because while the sources are a linear impact, the character level is partially exponential).  

Suffice it to say we know the root cause of the problem, although this is not something we can fix overnight.  It is deeply rooted in some of the core code in PCGen.  The rest of the team has spent tremendous effort since 5.6 to break the code into more flexible pieces (I won't bother with the metrics, but there has been a tremendous amount of improvement), so we can actually get at the problem.  I have spent much of the last six months lining up the pieces to reach an endgame where we can squash this particular issue.

We're getting there, stay tuned.


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## thpr (Feb 8, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> I'm pretty comfortable editing LST files by hand, but I sure wouldn't sneeze at a slick editor, either.




Nice to know I've got both you and iwarrior-poet signed up as beta testers for a new editor.


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## Mercule (Feb 8, 2007)

thpr said:
			
		

> Nice to know I've got both you and iwarrior-poet signed up as beta testers for a new editor.




Done.  I'm in the process of adding _Tome of Battle_ and _Races of Eberron_.  Those should probably give an editor a good shakedown.

Same name at gmail.


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## thpr (Feb 9, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Done.  I'm in the process of adding _Tome of Battle_ and _Races of Eberron_.  Those should probably give an editor a good shakedown.




  eek.  This is where I admit to choosing a poor combination of words.  It was an "I'm keeping you in mind" statement rather than an ability to send something now (unfortunately).   :\ 

However, that doesn't mean it will be an eternal wait; due to the nature of the proposed architecture changes, it will be one of the first pieces that must be built. (being able to browse the data gives the ability to validate data import/export integrity)


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 9, 2007)

Well, as someone who bought a large number of CMP datasets and also who has personal experience in narrowly avoiding becoming a squashed raccoon on the highway of Hasbro's electronic licensing decisions...

I'm for showing CMP some love.  These guys aren't in the biz to get rich. They are doing their thing the best way they can and I hope they find a way to make some dough and make it all work.

Stick it out guys and good luck. 
_
/me flashes a Don Cherry "Thumbs Up"_


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## Mercule (Feb 9, 2007)

thpr said:
			
		

> eek.  This is where I admit to choosing a poor combination of words.  It was an "I'm keeping you in mind" statement rather than an ability to send something now (unfortunately).




It's cool.  I kinda figured that might be the case.  It was a cool enough opportunity that I was going to make sure I passed my contact info on.  Keep it or not.


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## karianna (Feb 9, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> For me speed is actually the main bugbear of the app -- though I keep hoping that one of these computer upgrade cycles (go core2duo!) will eventually render that moot.
> 
> since you're here I'd like to mention two things:
> 
> ...




Thpr has already replied on 1), and boy are we glad to have him on board! .  On the 2nd point, I/we have definitely been thinking very seriously about doing just that, as you may or may not know, my mandate is to turn PCGen into 'Semi Professional Open Source' and the final step of that will be to have a independent site run at say pcgen.org with the full message boards etc.

We've got the docs, the wiki, the Y! boards and the website hosted at Sourceforge, so we're pretty much there in terms of the content and community required to start such an independent site, we're now working on getting in enough regular donations/sponsorship to be able to host a site seperately .  We'll keep you guys posted!


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## karianna (Feb 9, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> I've been waiting for RPGF for some time.  I really haven't had any faith in its release for quite a while, though.  Currently, I'm just hoping CMP sticks around long enough for at least one more update of PCGen.
> 
> On the other hand, PCGen is looking stronger all the time.  If it speeds up quite a bit and some of the apparent memory leak/rendering issues disappear, I'll be happy.  I'm pretty comfortable editing LST files by hand, but I sure wouldn't sneeze at a slick editor, either.  My players will be happy if the GUI gets a bit of polish and there was a character sheet that looked pretty much exactly like HeroForge.




The UI will continue to receive some polish over the next few alpha and beta releases, but the majority of the work is going into splitting the UI from the core processing, that way we can overhaul the UI completely and even offer alternative UI's (AJAX, SWT, Swing, whatever).  I have a list of the current improvements required, it's just a matter of finding a coder willing to do the work.  

As for the HeroForge like character sheet, there is a request logged to do this, but in all honesty it won't be a priority for the team, we have a pretty large range of sheets that do seem to satisfy a vast majority of the user base, sorry to disappoint .


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## Mercule (Feb 9, 2007)

karianna said:
			
		

> As for the HeroForge like character sheet, there is a request logged to do this, but in all honesty it won't be a priority for the team, we have a pretty large range of sheets that do seem to satisfy a vast majority of the user base, sorry to disappoint .




I understand.  I've tried to convert the HF sheet myself and it's a royal pain.  Plus, I don't seem to be as proficient with the output tags as I am with the listfile tags.

As a GM, I'm interested mainly in power, with sufficient usability.  However, my players are mainly interested in a pretty output.  The other objection I've heard in trying to get them to move from HF to PCGen is that it's something of a pain to enter in higher level characters from scratch.  I don't necessarily see it, but it's feedback, for what it's worth.


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 19, 2007)

And CMP has once again blown by its self-imposed info update on its web page. Yet another indication of a lack of commitment to their current/potential customers.


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## Yair (Feb 19, 2007)

thpr said:
			
		

> We're getting there, stay tuned.



The last time I tried to use PCGen, to create a level 13 multiclassed character, the program slowed down to a grinding halt and finally crashed so badly that it corrupted the character's file, leaving me with nothing after HOURS of work. My computer is pretty weak as it is (I was working on the low-memory version of the program), perhaps that's part of the issue. I left it, and won't come back until I'm assured this silly problem with high-level characters is resolved. Until then, it's just much more sensible for me to do things by hand.


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## Henry (Feb 19, 2007)

To go back to the CMP issue at hand, as much love as I've had for Mynex, Merton_Monk, and the crew, I've got to say a project announced two years ago with very little to show for it is a hard strain on fans looking forward to something, especially since it's been undercut a lot by the loss of the official WotC support contract. I stopped following their site about four months ago, but if RPGFoundry hits with a big splash I would be tempted enough to return; the guys they've hired in the past have been some first-rate programmers and they tend to do some impressive work.

PCGen has always impressed me with the effort its fans have put in to keep it alive and relevant; my only problem of late with the site is that it's gotten VERY confusing to follow; the stable/unstable releases are getting kind of hard to track on the pcgen.sourceforge.net site, whereas before they were very easy to track. Dates, most current releases, etc. don't seem to match up like they used to. Heck, I'm not even sure what the Alpha release is up to, currently, just looking at the site! When the next stable comes along, I'll probably take a look, but I'm holding off and doing stuff by hand, currently.


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## kingpaul (Feb 19, 2007)

Yair said:
			
		

> The last time I tried to use PCGen



What version of the program was that?


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## kingpaul (Feb 19, 2007)

Henry said:
			
		

> PCGen has always impressed me with the effort its fans have put in to keep it alive and relevant; my only problem of late with the site is that it's gotten VERY confusing to follow; the stable/unstable releases are getting kind of hard to track on the pcgen.sourceforge.net site, whereas before they were very easy to track. Dates, most current releases, etc. don't seem to match up like they used to. Heck, I'm not even sure what the Alpha release is up to, currently, just looking at the site! When the next stable comes along, I'll probably take a look, but I'm holding off and doing stuff by hand, currently.



Could you be a bit more specific in your issues Henry?


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 26, 2007)

And now CMP's site is down again... Does anyone really doubt their days are numbered?


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## D'karr (Feb 26, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> And now CMP's site is down again... Does anyone really doubt their days are numbered?




Yep, the sky surely is falling.


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## Henry (Feb 26, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Could you be a bit more specific in your issues Henry?




For one example, it used to be when you hit "news" on pcgen.sourceforge.net, and hit "read more" for the latest alpha/finished/whatever release, it would spell out what new features were in the version, what bugs were fixed since previous version, what new data sets were added, etc. Now, it says, "PCGen and their official sponsor Silven Publishing are pleased to announce the release of X". Period. I used to use those to gauge whether this particular release was worth my time to download and test-drive, buggy or not.

My problem with dates/releases seems to have cleared up since the last couple of releases (dot 7 and dot 8). Prior, I recall something a little funky going on with the numbering, and whereas the news page was saying "dot 5 is released! dot 6 is released!" the latest unstable release was dot 1? dot 2? Can't recall now. Lately it seems to have been straightened out, but having an easier place to look at the summary of bug fixes and new features would be a handy thing to have or know where to get them.


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## TheYeti1775 (Feb 26, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> And now CMP's site is down again... Does anyone really doubt their days are numbered?




Still down now an hour later.


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 26, 2007)

Actually, they were down yesterday too (at least when I checked they were...)


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## kingpaul (Feb 26, 2007)

Henry said:
			
		

> For one example



Thanks Henry. I've passed this on to our web monkeys.


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## kingpaul (Feb 26, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> Actually, they were down yesterday too (at least when I checked they were...)



Up and down actually.  Their PostNuke is acting up yesterday as well. They got one problem fixed, but apparently something else broke.


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## TheYeti1775 (Feb 26, 2007)

Think its a shame for them.  As P.O. as I got at the "It's Coming Soon" line, they did provide 'official' support on the comptur side.

Right now, I'm one of many kinda just sitting on the sidelines waiting to see what WOTC/Hasbro does now.  While I love buying 'toys' as much as the next gamer, CFO (i.e. wife) dictates how much gets spent on said 'toys'.  
There are things I like about many of the 'competing' products out there.  
PCGen enjoys a huge following, where as RPG Xplorer has a easy to use interface.  

And KingPaul you can take note on this one (currently have a copy of 5.8); 
Any developer reading this one can as well:
Make your product stand alone, not dependent on other softwares (i.e. Java).  I want to be able to put it on my mini-drive (4GB) and take it with me to my friend's; to my work (where they don't allow Java Apps to run); to my home.  I don't want the need of a driver outside of your system or a requirement to be online.  I can deal with 'slowness' for a package that can do that.  I just want to be able to install it and run with it.  Really I think that is the main thing that has kept me from 'fully embracing' PCGen, please correct me if I'm wrong on it.

Thanks for listening,
Yeti


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## Mercule (Feb 26, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> Actually, they were down yesterday too (at least when I checked they were...)




In fairness, I believe their datacenter is in Michigan or Wisconsin.  The upper midwest (at least Iowa and Minnesota -- I haven't paid attension outside that area) has been hit pretty hard by ice storms in the last couple of days and many places are without power.

Of course, a good datacenter should have back-up power, but I believe CMP has already acknowledged that they don't have a great datacenter.

Not that I don't think CMP is on its way out.  I just think it's fair to give the occasional benefit of the doubt.


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## schporto (Feb 26, 2007)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Make your product stand alone, not dependent on other softwares (i.e. Java).  I want to be able to put it on my mini-drive (4GB) and take it with me to my friend's; to my work (where they don't allow Java Apps to run); to my home.  I don't want the need of a driver outside of your system or a requirement to be online.  I can deal with 'slowness' for a package that can do that.  I just want to be able to install it and run with it.  Really I think that is the main thing that has kept me from 'fully embracing' PCGen, please correct me if I'm wrong on it.




First off just about all software is dependent on other software.  About the only exception I know of is the bios.  Your operating system depends on the bios.  Any program you run after that is dependent on the OS.  Web apps are dependent on web browsers.  Etc etc.

I like it being dependent on Java.  Java makes it able to ignore the OS.  This means it will run the same on my linux desktop, as the windows laptop, as the IMac.  Now before you say - but everyone runs windows!  No.  No they don't.  Two of my players run Linux, and one uses a Mac.  And I'd rather it support the Mac and Linux users then then few places out there that do not allow Java apps.

Chances are - if they don't allow java apps, they'd be really upset if you ran PCGen anyways.
-cpd


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## TheYeti1775 (Feb 26, 2007)

schporto said:
			
		

> First off just about all software is dependent on other software.  About the only exception I know of is the bios.  Your operating system depends on the bios.  Any program you run after that is dependent on the OS.  Web apps are dependent on web browsers.  Etc etc.
> 
> I like it being dependent on Java.  Java makes it able to ignore the OS.  This means it will run the same on my linux desktop, as the windows laptop, as the IMac.  Now before you say - but everyone runs windows!  No.  No they don't.  Two of my players run Linux, and one uses a Mac.  And I'd rather it support the Mac and Linux users then then few places out there that do not allow Java apps.
> 
> ...



Your missing the point   
The point is I want a stand alone product.  I don't want to have to deal with worrying about if my friend has the correct driver or not.  I want to install it to a portable drive, weather it's Linux/Mac/Windows doesn't matter.  It should be able to run from it's install to that drive alone.  Installing it to multiple machines shouldn't be needed at all.  Like I said its a want that most likely won't be filled, but I can at least tell them about it.  It can be thrown back there on that 12th back burner of possible projects ten years down the road.  Let's see they are at 5.10 now, so I'll check back about 10.5 for it.   

But seriously I want them to keep up the work they have been doing and succeed doing so, as it benefits us all.   

And KingPaul if 5.10 can run fully stand alone on a minidrive only, tell me I'll download it as soon as I get home.  As I will use it.

Keep up the good work all of ya.
Yeti



> Chances are - if they don't allow java apps, they'd be really upset if you ran PCGen anyways.



I sit and monitor a system all day.  As long as the system is up and running they could care less what I do around here.  I like skating.


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## schporto (Feb 26, 2007)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Your missing the point
> The point is I want a stand alone product.



Perhaps I am.  Do you have an example of such a program?  Personally I've never come across a program such as you describe.
It is my belief that such a program would be non-cross OS.  Hence what I don't want to see.
But if you have a program that runs from a thumb drive on Windows, Mac and Linux, I'd be extremely interested in it.
-cpd


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## kingpaul (Feb 26, 2007)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Make your product stand alone, not dependent on other softwares (i.e. Java).



It uses java so its can be used across operating systems.


			
				TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> I want to be able to put it on my mini-drive (4GB)



I have 5.11.8 on my 512MB thumb drive with no problem


			
				TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> I don't want the need of a driver outside of your system or a requirement to be online.



Well, you don't need to be online to run the program. But as I said, java was chosen for cross-OS abilities.


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## kingpaul (Feb 26, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Thanks Henry. I've passed this on to our web monkeys.



And our web monkeys have said that, starting with the next release, they'll have links to the release notes...the News section won't allow a full listing.


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## TheYeti1775 (Feb 26, 2007)

Guess I will be downloading a few things here in about 90 minutes.


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 27, 2007)

CMP is still down... Plagued by disaster or mismanagement----doesn't really matter at this point. They just keep on showing us that they don't have the ability to run a high-quality company.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Feb 27, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> CMP is still down... Plagued by disaster or mismanagement----doesn't really matter at this point. They just keep on showing us that they don't have the ability to run a high-quality company.




Did they knock you down at school and take your lunch money or something?  You seem to have a serious hate-on for them.

They've no doubt experienced issues, but they also managed to produce some stuff that a lot of people have found useful and that probably wouldn't have seen the light of day otherwise.  I don't see any point in hoping the horse is dead just so I can beat it.


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 27, 2007)




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## Sigurd (Feb 27, 2007)

Whats the point of this thread?

If CMP has issues suggest something positive or leave them to improve by themselves.

I hope they do well and thank them for what they've done. Ghoulish interest in their demise seems cruel & unkind.

s


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## Mercule (Feb 27, 2007)

Sigurd said:
			
		

> Ghoulish interest in their demise seems cruel & unkind.




Isn't that why the Internet was created?


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## javelin5 (Feb 28, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> It uses java so its can be used across operating systems.
> 
> I have 5.11.8 on my 512MB thumb drive with no problem
> 
> Well, you don't need to be online to run the program. But as I said, java was chosen for cross-OS abilities.




You can also copy the entire Java JRE onto a thumb drive and run the program without it using your PCs Java by changing how PCGen launches.  So the machine you run the thumb drive on doesn't even need Java.


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## kingpaul (Feb 28, 2007)

javelin5 said:
			
		

> You can also copy the entire Java JRE onto a thumb drive and run the program without it using your PCs Java by changing how PCGen launches.  So the machine you run the thumb drive on doesn't even need Java.



That's cool. I've never tried that. Good to know.


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## Mercule (Feb 28, 2007)

javelin5 said:
			
		

> You can also copy the entire Java JRE onto a thumb drive and run the program without it using your PCs Java by changing how PCGen launches.  So the machine you run the thumb drive on doesn't even need Java.




That wouldn't be platform-independant, though, would it?  You'd need a different RTE for each OS.


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## lonejedi (Feb 28, 2007)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Did they knock you down at school and take your lunch money or something?  You seem to have a serious hate-on for them.



I believe it's called Priapism.  WP should have consulted a doctor after 4 hours, but he must not have read the directions on the box.


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 28, 2007)

Took me awhile, but I got that one (heh).   I am not above laughing at myself---or someone else commenting when they feel I have gone to far (not that I am admitting anything...). 

BTW, I just read CMP's new update found here: http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=728

(I would do the fancy link thing---but I can't get it to work)

I am sorry you are no longer with CMP, Lonejedi. I may be very frustrated with how things have gone for CMP for the last 18 months----but that doesn't mean I want them outta biz. Quite the contrary---I would be first in line to sing praises/buy products IF CMP was doing well. I guess I am miffed at some sort of dreamy "What could have been" fantasy that I thought I was somehow participating in/sponsoring by spending much $$$ on CMP datasets.
I can't help but think that your departure bodes very, very badly for the future of the company.


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## TheYeti1775 (Feb 28, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> That's cool. I've never tried that. Good to know.




kingpaul, 
It does work, I did that just a few minutes ago and PCGEN 5.10.1 works just fine from my little mini-drive here at work.

Now if I learn how to enter everything in just right, I'll be a pig in slop.   

Fun times.

Yeti


----------



## 2WS-Steve (Feb 28, 2007)

lonejedi said:
			
		

> I believe it's called Priapism.  WP should have consulted a doctor after 4 hours, but he must not have read the directions on the box.




Replying to your announcement here since the server host might randomly explode anything over at CMP.

Best of luck in what you do next and thanks for always popping in to sometimes hostile crowds to post updates and keep people informed!


----------



## Gnal (Mar 3, 2007)

javelin5 said:
			
		

> You can also copy the entire Java JRE onto a thumb drive and run the program without it using your PCs Java by changing how PCGen launches.  So the machine you run the thumb drive on doesn't even need Java.




Could you be more explicit? I have a folder called "C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_09" that has a "bin" and "lib" sub-folders with lots of files in them. Do I need to copy the whole thing to my thumb drive?

thanks for helping!!

-- david
aka Gnal


----------



## MojoGM (Mar 5, 2007)

*State of the Monkey (posted 3/5)*

Mynex posted this morning:

*This has been a difficult posting to write. There's so much details on things we could give, but in the end, a lot of things just come out sounding like excuses and 'woe be unto us' lines... So, to keep it to a minimum (as it's still going to sound that way no matter what), here's the bare facts; 

CMP IS hurting right now, it is on life support. 

CMP is NOT folding up, closing shop, going away or dying off a slow and agonizing death. 

RPGF is NOT going to be released 1st quarter this year or 2nd quarter either (without a serous miracle). 



So here's slightly more details; 

CMP hurting: WotC deciding not to renew our license, for whatever their reasons, has put a serious serious hurting on things here. Most of you know from your own purchases that WotC products were most of our sales, and without them, a lot of earnings for paying people and paying for things went right out the window. 

CMP used to have 7 employees and anywhere from 3-20 cntractors (data monkeys mostly) at any given moment, now there's just Merton Monk and myself. 



CMP NOT closing shop: This was considered, very briefly. Had to be, it was a legitimate business option. And we probably should, if you were to go strictly from a business perspective, not looking at the desire of Merton and Myself or at the customer aspect. 

For good or bad, Merton and I are in this for the long haul, and we plan on 'for the good'. 



RPGF not being released yet: 2 issues here; money revenue drying up (see above) and critical design flaw discovered in testing mechanics. 

Without money, can't pay people to code or do data, pretty simple there. 

Critical design flaw came up when testing some things, 80% of the code we have needed to be scrapped. Problem is resolved, but that much coding going away is problematic to say the least. 

The design flaw is fixed from a 'on paper' standpoint and there's very specific tests that can be performed very early on in coding to make sure theory matches reality. 

With Merton and I the only ones coding (mostly Merton), this is going to take longer than we want(ed) to get RPGF out the door, but in the end is going to make it far more stable/versatile/user friendly. 



We realize that's not what people want(ed) to hear, but we've never stinted on giving you all the facts (when we've been able to or it's been appropriate), so there it is. 

No we are not going to give a hard 'drop dead' date for RPGF release, but we do expect, even with only Merton and I working on things to be a year or less (depends on a couple of factors coding wise). 

We are not dropping crossplatform support or multi-game system support - The revamped design will actually make both far easier to implement (pending the early testing of course). If in the early testing either prove to be too problematic, then we will drop either/both if need be in the initial release aiming for windows & OGL (3.0, 3.5, modern) at the initial release, then following up with mac/linux & other game systems to follow as quickly as possible. 


RPGF has all of our focus, see 'Other Projects' section below. 


We understand that this isn't going to sit well with many, if anyone, but all we can do is apologize for yet again another delay. 

Anyone wishing a refund on their pre-order of RPGF will be granted it. 


Other projects 
e-Tools - There is no further development in any capacity on e-Tools, code or data. 


Help Files - These have been WAY sidelined with everything else, as I get time, I will work on these, but no promises or guarantee's on timeline. 


PCGen - Barak has agreed to do bug fixes for us as he has time. I will work on data files as I have time. There are a mess of bug fixes already in our repository, and I will get a release together for later this month (after I talk to Barak some more). 

It is highly doubtful, to almost outright 'not gonna happen' that our data sets will advance to the next stable production version of PCGen when it's released if there are any serious changes to the data structure of the program itself. 

New data sets may come out as I have time to work on them, but my first priority when I have time to work on PCGen data sets will be to complete standardization. 


IA's - For now, dead. We'll revisit these way down the road. 


Fantasy Grounds - For now, dead. We'll revisit these way down the road. 


Writing - For now, dead. We'll revisit these way down the road. 


GenCon - Most likely not going to happen. 


Website - Maintenance will be done once a month (cleaning up the forums), FU's will mostly consist of "Not Much", "Some", "Got a Lot"... and pointing to a 'developers journal' type postings by Merton and/or myself... which we'll start doing on a regular basis (might be once a week, every 2 weeks or once a month - depends on how much there is to relate)... what info would be in each 'dev journ' hard to say at this point. 


I'll be handling all the customer service emails, web questions, and the like with Lone Jedi leaving us. 

I'll be wandering about the forums, but probably won't post too much, like I've said, Merton and My focus is on RPGF, so every bit of energy we have will be directed at that. 

So I'll apologize for both of us now for that, apologize for the constant delays in RPGF, and apologize for everything else. 

W. Robert Reed - Mynex 
Bryan McRoberts - Merton Monk*

I was very sorry to read this, and best of luck to them.  I pre-ordered RPGF, and I'm going to let that pre-order stand.  I'm sure when it is finally relseased I'll find a use for it.

Damn Wotc....that's all I can say.


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 5, 2007)

Cripes. I can't decide if this is actually worse than CMP closing up shop. It is painful to watch this happen to a company I had very, very high hopes for.


----------



## Mercule (Mar 5, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> Cripes. I can't decide if this is actually worse than CMP closing up shop. It is painful to watch this happen to a company I had very, very high hopes for.




Ditto.

I kind of wondered how this would impact PCGen, too.  After all, it isn't much use without datasets.  But then I realized that I've been entering Tome of Battle stuff and it isn't too bad.  I'm not too psyched about adding lists of monsters or spells, but the rest isn't bad at all.


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 5, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> I kind of wondered how this would impact PCGen, too.



Well, CMP has nothing to do with PCGen development. They make datasets to work with PCGen. Granted, the lapse of the WotC license has caused no small amount of consternation among our user base because they didn't have the time/inclination/etc to create their own datasets.


			
				Mercule said:
			
		

> After all, it isn't much use without datasets.



That's true. But PCGen comes bundled with numerous datasets, and the number is going up...in fits and spurts to be honest. But it does go up.  


			
				Mercule said:
			
		

> I'm not too psyched about adding lists of monsters or spells, but the rest isn't bad at all.



Spells, IMO, are the easiest of *.lst files to do.


----------



## Mercule (Mar 5, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> That's true. But PCGen comes bundled with numerous datasets, and the number is going up...in fits and spurts to be honest. But it does go up.




True.  I'm probably in the minority of PCGen users, though, as I only use WotC books, so 3rd party datasets don't really even register for me.



> Spells, IMO, are the easiest of *.lst files to do.




Again, I'm probably atypical because I get much, much more annoyed at line length than I do at bizarre twists of logic in implementing datasets.  I'd rather enter all the PHB classes than ten spells, just because I can do the classes without scrolling right.

Hmm...  I guess I could throw that out as a request of some sort -- I want an editor that formats the .lst files vertically, rather than horizontally.  That and syntax highlighting (with an intellitype-like feature) would pretty well do it for me.  I'll hold my breath.


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 5, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Hmm...  I guess I could throw that out as a request of some sort -- I want an editor that formats the .lst files vertically, rather than horizontally.



I'm not aware of any that do that.


			
				Mercule said:
			
		

> That and syntax highlighting (with an intellitype-like feature) would pretty well do it for me.  I'll hold my breath.



There are several text editors (TextPad and UltraEdit IIRC, among others) that have a highlighting scheme created for them. I use Notepad, but that's just me.


----------



## 2WS-Steve (Mar 5, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Hmm...  I guess I could throw that out as a request of some sort -- I want an editor that formats the .lst files vertically, rather than horizontally.




That's one advantage of an XML format.

What I do when working with .lst files is have a macro set up to switch from tab-delimited to paragraph delimited, then back again. That makes it much easier to do data entry.


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 5, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> That's one advantage of an XML format.
> 
> What I do when working with .lst files is have a macro set up to switch from tab-delimited to paragraph delimited, then back again. That makes it much easier to do data entry.



How do you do that?


----------



## 2WS-Steve (Mar 5, 2007)

I'm using UltraEdit -- but you should be able to do this in most other programs.

The Macro for PCGEN tabbed to Paragraphs just goes:

FIND {paragraph mark}  REPLACE WITH {tab}###
FIND {tab}  REPLACE WITH {paragraph mark}

I only run the macro within selected text, instead of the whole file -- don't want to convert the header rows for instance. In effect, it converts the lines to paragraph-mark-delimited text, with  ### (or some other string that you're confident won't appear elsewhere) serving as the end of item delimiter.

To convert back basically just have a macro that does the opposite:


FIND {paragraph mark}  REPLACE WITH {tab}
FIND {###}  REPLACE WITH {paragraph mark}


It creates some junk tabs and empty lines, but those are okay to ignore or easy to clean out. Someone with actual skillz could, I'm sure, do a better job.

I also think it would be fairly easy to just build into PCGEN if you wanted to switch into a different file format -- simply allow ### delimited files and have PCGEN run the formatter before loading the .lst file. Though I imagine working with two different file formats could cause problems.


I will definitely say that it's much easier to read and edit the converted files. No trying to keep track of things in column 1500 and I've found that doing data entry is easy, since I can just scroll down and paste say, SOURCE information in a bunch of entries, or easily copy and paste pre-reqs between feats, or, for long items, have text wrap and line numbers on so I can tell when the field ends.


----------



## Mercule (Mar 5, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> I'm not aware of any that do that.



Me either.  I've toyed with the idea of writing a dedicated .lst file editor that does just that, but it never gets high enough priority.  Maybe after my two-year old is off to college. 



> There are several text editors (TextPad and UltraEdit IIRC, among others) that have a highlighting scheme created for them. I use Notepad, but that's just me.



I use PSPad.  It does the color-coding.  I just threw the statement in there for completness.  Actually, I'd kill (okay, maybe just maim) for an editor that has Intellisense like VS 2005 (or Eclipse, probably, but that's not my platform).


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 5, 2007)

Guys---maybe you could start a different thread to discuss the PCGen stuff---or just head over to their website.


----------



## Gnal (Mar 5, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> Guys---maybe you could start a different thread to discuss the PCGen stuff---or just head over to their website.




PCGen does not have a website with forums. It has a Yahoo list


----------



## Mercule (Mar 6, 2007)

Gnal said:
			
		

> PCGen does not have a website with forums. It has a Yahoo list




Which I cannot reach from work.

Besides, this is the D&D Utilities forum on the board.  So, discussing PCGen is pretty much exactly what we're supposed to be doing here.


----------



## MojoGM (Mar 6, 2007)

I think what he meant was could you please start your own thread to talk about PC GEN and all its little intricacies, as this one was started to talk about CMP and the delay of RPG Forge...


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## Zulithe (Mar 6, 2007)

It's a real shame, losing their license like that. CMP had more than ample time to get a product out the door. 80% code rewrite that far into development? That's pure mismanagement. Good luck to you CMP, whatever you do. Learn from your mistakes.

I eagerly await what WotC plans to do with its license now.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Mar 6, 2007)

To Robert Reed and all of those who helped build CMP,

I was sad to read more of your troubles. I am as well positioned as perhaps anyone to understand some of what you are going through.

Making computer applicaitons for the hobby game market is 90% an act of faith and 10% willfully blind arithmetic. Sometimes the end user has a very hard time understanding that  - but I do.

I appreciated your products, your profesisonalism and the very difficult task you took on after Fluid left the original e-tools in a precarious code state.

I enjoyed meeting you last GenCon and will look forward to reading about the fruits of your current labours in the future.

If it helps: I imaging when Peter Adkinson had a certain RPG accessory blocked from being released, he probably thought it was among the worst days of his life too.

It only became clear  - much later  - that it was, in fact, the best day of his life. He just didn't know it.

Life can be like that.  Hang in there.


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 6, 2007)

MojoGM said:
			
		

> I think what he meant was could you please start your own thread to talk about PC GEN and all its little intricacies, as this one was started to talk about CMP and the delay of RPG Forge...



Exactly.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Mar 7, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> It is painful to watch this happen to a company I had very, very high hopes for.




That's funny. Up until Mynex's quote - you appeared to be ghoulishly  cheering on their deaths whilst eating popcorn and insulting them.

And if you weren't - let's make no mistake about it: that is _PRECISELY_ how you came off.


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 7, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> That's funny. Up until Mynex's quote - you appeared to be ghoulishly  cheering on their deaths whilst eating popcorn and insulting them.
> 
> And if you weren't - let's make no mistake about it: that is _PRECISELY_ how you came off.




It may have appeared that way, but that is not what I felt. I was never hoping that CMP would perish. I still don't---though to be honest I don't think they will recover and I doubt RPGF will see the light of day (let alone the dataset transfer software that would make it all worth the wait). All I have ever hoped for is that CMP would either produce its product within a responsive time frame---or if not---be very clear about the reasons for missed deadlines. I felt that if CMP was not going to be honest about its current state---than somebody should. That is why I started this thread. When Mynex finally posted his address on the CMP website, it went a long way to addressing many of my concerns/criticisms---hence my change in tone.

What you picked up on was my frustration at CMP's numerous blown promises and scraped "potential" release dates (for both RPGF and datasets), in addition to its lack of sincerity in addressing concerns/criticisms about forthcoming products.

I spent over $200 on CMP datasets for PCGen----largely on the belief that I would be able to trade them in when RPGF came on the scene (which the folks at CMP made it seem was always just around the corner...)
So when CMP/WoTC (I blame both) blew this for me and numerous others---I was pretty darn upset.

Even worse, CMP initially tried to insist it had never promised the trade-in. This was probably what escalated my frustration almost past the point of no return. Not only did CMP go back on a very important promise---but they tried to insist they had never made it in the first place... Horrendous. Someone more savvy than me used some sort of technique to call up the previous CMP web page ("way-back machine"---or something like it) that clearly outlined the dataset exchange agreement that CMP had promised, disproving CMP's denial of the deal.

On the plus side, CMP's customer support for problems with purchased datasets has been excellent, and I have always said as much.

I may have ranted at times, but CMP's lack of credibility and relationship building with loyal customers was infuriating to me and others. So I voiced my opinion.


----------



## DethStryke (Mar 9, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> Someone more savvy than me used some sort of technique to call up the previous CMP web page ("way-back machine"---or something like it) that clearly outlined the dataset exchange agreement that CMP had promised, disproving CMP's denial of the deal.




http://web.archive.org/collections/web/advanced.html

One of the best tools available on the internet for finding those lost pages! Type in the address of the website in question, and many times their crawlers have hit it and archived the website in question, sometimes at many times per year. I've found old, long-since broken bookmarks and salvaged D&D tools/information that I had thought was gone forever!

I have the Wayback machine installed in Firefox's quick search selection.


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 12, 2007)

And CMP's website is down again...


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 13, 2007)

Still down...


----------



## lonejedi (Mar 14, 2007)

Though I will grant that it's intriguing how the site was up for a while after the server was totally reformatted and now it's gone again...  Wouldn't you rather spend your time playing a game, or at least moving on to some other software, rather than wasting it obsessing over CMP?


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 14, 2007)

I'm bored at work. CMP gives me something to focus on.   
Plus I am still miffed by how a company can say that it is still up and running---when it spends more time offline than online for the last four months (though I may be exaggerating a tad   )

I am just so vexed with the state of digital aids in general---that if I can do anything to spur things on/provide fair criticism---I will.


----------



## jaerdaph (Mar 14, 2007)

lonejedi said:
			
		

> Wouldn't you rather spend your time playing a game, or at least moving on to some other software, rather than wasting it obsessing over CMP?




QFT. Let it go, dude. Let it go. 

There's a lot more serious crap going on in the world worth getting your panties in a bunch over than this.


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 14, 2007)

QFT??? Whatzzat?


----------



## jaerdaph (Mar 14, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> QFT??? Whatzzat?




Quoted for truth.

Let it go. Move on.


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 16, 2007)

CMP's cite is still down... Coming up on a week now... 
Folks had told me to let it go, I probably should, but I am also concerned about tech support---it was guaranteed with my purchase of datasets ($200+)---how am I going to get it when I can't reach the company?


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Mar 16, 2007)

*Yahoo Group it / plus another thought - rambling*



			
				iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> CMP's cite is still down... Coming up on a week now...
> Folks had told me to let it go, I probably should, but I am also concerned about tech support---it was guaranteed with my purchase of datasets ($200+)---how am I going to get it when I can't reach the company?




Ya could start a Yahoo Group for ETools Support.  Something like PCGen's where people ask the how to and people help each other out.  I'm pretty sure if you announced it here you would get quite a few willing to go back and forth with helping each other with tips and all.

I know your looking at it from the errata standpoint, but technically without the liscense they couldn't distribute even errata for it.


---------------------
Now for a little Lawful Evil twist in the CMP favor
---------------------
Now on a totally different note, when you look at IP stuff and all that.  Wouldnt there be an arguement to say that since while under the agreement WOTC gave the permission for CMP to CREATE (keyword here) datasets for their products during that time period.  Now I ain't no lawyer thats for sure, but wouldn't that now change the IP of the Datasets to CMP's ownership? as they did create the format and distrubition system for all of it.

So wouldn't technically CMP still be in control of stuff THAT CMP CREATED during that time period?  Yeah they couldn't put in any errata since then but anything released before the license expired would be fair game for the CMP monkeys.

I'm just going to use a car analogy so you all can follow my line of thinking.
You buy a car.
By virtue of buying the car you can do what you want with it, raise it lower it, change the front end so it looks completly different.  Or even just let it sit.
Ford or Chevy then decide they no longer want to do business with you.
They can't stop you from selling that car you already own.

By this logic I think CMP is in a very interesting position of not really being unable to tread water.  Cause technically they still own the rights for that time period.  Just cause they can't create new stuff doesn't mean they can't sell their old datasets.  These datasets were created long before the rug was pulled out.  Thereby they are CMP datasets, cause there is no way WOTC gave them the data in that format.  Maybe LoneJedi can answer that part on how they got data.  So unless the data came over in that format, then the IP is now CMP's not WOTC.  

Now this is just a simple layman's take on it.  But if I was on a jury I think I would be leaning on the CMP side if argued like this.

Yeti
They can't take back the


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 16, 2007)

I agree, and am sure that there are other options/loopholes for both consumers and CMP. However, as various folks and CMP staff have commented---they simply don't have the financial support to fight a legal battle with WoTC. It wouldn't be financially realistic to engage in a legal battle that would cost waaaaayyyy more than any potential returns on the datasets.


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Mar 16, 2007)

I say challenge them.  Make them spend their money to do it.  I'm sure you can find a lawyer that would like to make a name for themselves to represent for a nominal cost.  Let the WOTC spend their hundreds of dollars per hour to defeat you.  Worse they can do is make the business close their doors.  Wait they are already making that happen.

Just the same as they are doing to Sarbreenar using the RPGA to do it to them.

How much would it take to get a lawyer to look over the contract and tell you if it's possible?
Heck goto a nearby law school and talk with one of the professors, most of them would love to write a paper on it afterwards.  You might have to sign some book rights away to them but heck you could beat this.


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Mar 16, 2007)

Actually---it might be pretty cool---and also get a lot of other indie developers behind them. WoTC has definitely bullied other developers. Some of them might be willing to help CMP to take on WoTC (maybe in exchange for CMP developing datasets for their products).

Heck, I would personally pledge $50 towards any legal fund if CMP decided to take it on. I know that is a VERY small amount in terms of legal fees---but it could start some momentum...


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Mar 16, 2007)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> So wouldn't technically CMP still be in control of stuff THAT CMP CREATED during that time period?  Yeah they couldn't put in any errata since then but anything released before the license expired would be fair game for the CMP monkeys.




Almost certainly not, unless the WotC lawyers were high on crack for an extended period of time.


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Mar 16, 2007)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Almost certainly not, unless the WotC lawyers were high on crack for an extended period of time.



Maybe not crack but they are in Smokerville.   

Its the same as me handing you a book I wrote, say put this into a dataset format for your program.  You can make the datasets for this period of time of the books I write.

To me that means you have control of the data.  The IP for creating the data is all yours.

Yeti


----------



## Mercule (Mar 16, 2007)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Almost certainly not, unless the WotC lawyers were high on crack for an extended period of time.




Exactly.  That's just not the way licensing agreements work.  It's expired.  Buh-bye.


----------



## jaerdaph (Mar 16, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> Heck, I would personally pledge $50 towards any legal fund if CMP decided to take it on. I know that is a VERY small amount in terms of legal fees---but it could start some momentum...




I'm going to point you (and everyone else) toward http://www.idealist.org

You'll find lots of things there far more worthy of your time, energy, admirable commitment and $50.


----------



## Michael Morris (Mar 16, 2007)

Yeti, don't take this personal but you don't know what your talking about. If you did you wouldn't propose the above. Your analogy doesn't hold. The closest analogy one can draw similar to yours is that CMP was _leasing_ the car.  At no time did they own it. They can't keep producing the datasets nor sell the old ones without the license.


----------



## thpr (Mar 16, 2007)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Now for a little Lawful Evil twist in the CMP favor




I'm not a lawyer, but let me point out a few issues here.



> So wouldn't technically CMP still be in control of stuff THAT CMP CREATED during that time period?
> <snip>
> So unless the data came over in that format, then the IP is now CMP's not WOTC.




That depends on how the license was written.  Unless there were special terms, CMP would own the translation of the copyrighted work to the PCC/LST format.  However, since that data is a derivative work of the original books owned by WotC, WotC ALSO maintains copyright control over those datasets, so they cannot be copied or distributed without permission from *both* parties.



> I'm just going to use a car analogy so you all can follow my line of thinking.




What you're referring to in legal terms is the doctrine of first sale, see 17 USC 109 for how this applies to copyright.

The problem with your analogy is that distribution of a new COPY of the dataset that CMP created falls under 17 USC 106(1) and 17 USC 106(3), which reserves for the copyright holder the right to copy (and distribute a copy of) the work.  Hence the name, well, *copy*right.

This is a better analogy: If you buy a book, the publisher cannot maintain any control over what you do with that physical copy - you can read it, resell it, sit on it, compost it, burn it, whatever you like.  However, if you COPY it, you are violating copyright law, because it is the act of copying that is reserved for the copyright holder.  That may be fair use, if the copy is for personal use, but once you distribute it to others (also violating 17 USC 106(3)), it is unlikely you will be protected by the fair use clauses (17 USC 107)

As described, your case would never make it to a jury: It's a matter of law which would be handled in summary judgement against CMP.


----------



## silvermane (Mar 16, 2007)

...


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Mar 16, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Yeti, don't take this personal but you don't know what your talking about.



Trust me I don't take these boards personal at all.  I don't mind when people tell me I'm full of it.


Don't derivated works have thier own corresponding laws?


Personally between stuff like this and Sarbreenar, It's sorely tempting to tell WOTC to shove it where the sun don't shine.  Honestly unless my group all went to it, if they were to come out with a 4e I wouldn't buy it.  We play a D20 world, and barely have anything outside of Core and Complete books for WOTC material.  I'm one of the few that tends to get all the books.  Generally the others will hear my take on it, before deciding if they wanted it for themselves or not.  Yes I'm ranting some, I know.  But for all the rants I could have about CMP, I can not fault them for the job they somehow managed to do successfully when given a failed product as their basis for a start.


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Mar 16, 2007)

silvermane said:
			
		

> ...



Well speak up. 
Didn't hear ya.


----------



## The_Gneech (Mar 21, 2007)

Wow ... on a whim I went to check if the "DMG II stat block fix" for _E-Tools_ ever appeared, and I find the web equivalent of an elephant graveyard.

Erf.  I'm very sad to see this. _E-Tools_, for all its faults, is the one thing that makes _D&D_ playable for me.

Thanks for all your hard work, guys. I salute you! And I'm going to keep using _E-Tools_ as long as it keeps working.

-The Gneech


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 21, 2007)

The_Gneech said:
			
		

> Wow ... on a whim I went to check if the "DMG II stat block fix" for _E-Tools_ ever appeared, and I find the web equivalent of an elephant graveyard.



Yeah, their still recovering from their hosts' worm infection.


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## Nylanfs (Mar 22, 2007)

The_Gneech said:
			
		

> Wow ... on a whim I went to check if the "DMG II stat block fix" for _E-Tools_ ever appeared, and I find the web equivalent of an elephant graveyard.
> 
> Erf.  I'm very sad to see this. _E-Tools_, for all its faults, is the one thing that makes _D&D_ playable for me.
> 
> ...




Gneech, Eddy just checked in a new output sheet in the latest alpha of PCGen for that format.


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## lonejedi (Mar 23, 2007)

The_Gneech said:
			
		

> Wow ... on a whim I went to check if the "DMG II stat block fix" for _E-Tools_ ever appeared, and I find the web equivalent of an elephant graveyard.



Have you tried checking Ray's D&D Page for the Dungeon Magazine stat-blocks available there (the original debut of the format just before DMG II came out)?


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## iwarrior-poet (Mar 23, 2007)

CMP is down, again...


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## The_Gneech (Mar 23, 2007)

lonejedi said:
			
		

> Have you tried checking Ray's D&D Page for the Dungeon Magazine stat-blocks available there (the original debut of the format just before DMG II came out)?




I have that one, actually, thanks.  It includes some house rules, which are easy enough to ignore ... I was mainly going back to get the "official" one as a matter of form.

I am going to keep an eye on CMP, tho ... I was always pleased with their products overall and hope they can pull out of this crisis.

-The Gneech


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## The_Gneech (Mar 23, 2007)

Nylanfs said:
			
		

> Gneech, Eddy just checked in a new output sheet in the latest alpha of PCGen for that format.




I'm not ready to tackle PCGen yet ... I've got too much invested in _E-Tools_. Thanks for the heads-up, tho!

-The Gneech


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## Gnal (Mar 24, 2007)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> CMP is down, again...





Well, they are back up. Time for you to put away your joy-joy WP and go complain about something else.


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## iwarrior-poet (Mar 24, 2007)

Um... I started this thread in an effort to point out some serious problems with CMP. While this thread has been running, CMP has not done much that would provide any refutation of these problems. I am not complaining---just pointing out and updating some facts that other folks might want to try and gloss over.


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## dpmcalister (Mar 25, 2007)

Gnal said:
			
		

> Well, they are back up. Time for you to put away your joy-joy WP and go complain about something else.



Back up? I wouldn't call it that - not yet anyway.

I've not chimed in before but I've used PCGen (I've even tried, sometimes successfully, to code my own bits and pieces). I've bought datasets from CMP (the 3.5 and Complete series packages). I've tried to support them, but when they refused to answer a simple query about their output sheet calculating WILL incorrectly (it ignores the WIS stat modifier!) I gave up. Sure, it's just an output sheet, but it's actually, in terms of layout, the one I prefer. I don't know enough about how they work to try and correct the problem and my post on their forum (before it went down) was unanswered (aside from responses from other customers looking for a fix).

CMP? Not worth it. PCGen? I like it and, if I ever get the time code all the books I want to use, will be getting used again.


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## BarakO (Mar 25, 2007)

dpmcalister said:
			
		

> when they refused to answer a simple query about their output sheet calculating WILL incorrectly (it ignores the WIS stat modifier!) I gave up. Sure, it's just an output sheet, but it's actually, in terms of layout, the one I prefer. I don't know enough about how they work to try and correct the problem and my post on their forum (before it went down) was unanswered (aside from responses from other customers looking for a fix).




I don't recall a thread about that at all... but it's very possible that it didn't get answered immediately with everything that went down recently.

In any case, post your issue again over at CMP now that the forums are back up and you'll probably get an answer (most likely from me ).

Out of curiosity, which sheet?


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## dpmcalister (Mar 25, 2007)

BarakO said:
			
		

> I don't recall a thread about that at all... but it's very possible that it didn't get answered immediately with everything that went down recently.



I posted the thread back in January!



			
				BarakO said:
			
		

> In any case, post your issue again over at CMP now that the forums are back up and you'll probably get an answer (most likely from me ).
> 
> Out of curiosity, which sheet?



It's the output sheet that CMP distribute with their datasets. I haven't got it installed at the moment so can't give you the full name.


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## BarakO (Mar 25, 2007)

Heh, when I said recently, I meant since about November.  Darn site has been up and down like a yo-yo.  And of course, I started classes in January too.  

If you want, e-mail me the details direct (I just tried all of the CMP sheets and they seem to be working fine for me - perhaps you were trying one of the sheets from the Open Source distribution?).

barak at codemonkeypublishing dot com


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## dpmcalister (Mar 25, 2007)

BarakO said:
			
		

> Heh, when I said recently, I meant since about November.  Darn site has been up and down like a yo-yo.  And of course, I started classes in January too.



It was there for a while but, hey-ho.



			
				BarakO said:
			
		

> If you want, e-mail me the details direct (I just tried all of the CMP sheets and they seem to be working fine for me - perhaps you were trying one of the sheets from the Open Source distribution?).
> 
> barak at codemonkeypublishing dot com



Unfortunately, I don't have access to the files at the moment (like I said, they're uninstalled at the moment and I'm unable (due to distance) to reinstall them). I do know that it was, definitely, the CMP sheet. I'm back home next weekend for a day or two. I'll see if I can't get the exact filename for you.


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## Nylanfs (Mar 27, 2007)

dpmcalister said:
			
		

> It was there for a while but, hey-ho.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't have access to the files at the moment (like I said, they're uninstalled at the moment and I'm unable (due to distance) to reinstall them). I do know that it was, definitely, the CMP sheet. I'm back home next weekend for a day or two. I'll see if I can't get the exact filename for you.




Maybe it's relatd to the Will vx Willpower issue Barak?


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## Gnal (Mar 27, 2007)

Yea, Barak figured it out and gave him the correction over on the CMP boards


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