# I hate Christmas



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Well, bad Christmas gifts anyway.

Here's how it is - for the last several years I have gotten bad Christmas gifts from most of my family except my wife, who usually does a good job at getting me what I want, since she listens when I give suggestions. The rest of my family and her family appear to have potatos in their ears on this subject. I generally get crap I don't want, won't use, and will likely never use. I have tried increasingly blunt hints over the last couple yeas, starting with subtle suggestions, to directly stating what I want, to, in the past couple of years, giving my wife a specific list and saying "tell people to get me something on this list". Last year, I thought this problem had been solved. I got gift certificates to places like Best Buy. I know that Best Buy isn't the best place to get something, but at least I was able to get a couple DVDs that I actually wanted, as opposed to the year my sister-in-law decided to get me the pan and scan version of _Christmas Vacation_ (which would be about number 978 on my priority list of movies to own on DVD, at least partially because I don't find Chevy Chase to be funny).

So, we are getting into the swing of Christmas this year and what shows up on my doorstep? A package from the "Fountainpen Hospital" containing a pen catalogue and a wrapped package shaped exactly like a pen box for a fancy pen. The card identifies the item as coming from my parents. Knowing what it is, I go ahead and open the wrapped package and yes, it is a pen. A very expensive pen. Here's the rub: I do not want, will never want, and will not use an expensive pen. I lose pens. I keep at least a hundred pens on hand at home because of this. Five years ago, my parents got me a pen set of two expensive pens: one broke, and I lost the other, both within three months. Giving me a pen worth more than $2.00 is just throwing money away. Of course, since they ordered it from an online retailer and paid by credit card, the only way to return the pen is to send it back and have the retailer credit their credit card, so the only way I can return this item is to tell them I am returning it. And to make this doubly annoying, my wife already explicitly _told_ them to get me a gift certificate just like they did last year.

So, because no one ever seems to get my hints, or understand what I am saying, I have decided to get this information out to my family, either by e-mail, or just by me (or my wife) telling them:



> I have decided that I do not want any specific Christmas gifts this year. I like books, CDs, and DVDs, and would prefer gift certificates or gift cards from Amazon, Borders, Best Buy, or some similar retailer. If you feel compelled to purchase me a specific item, I have provided a wish list at the bottom of this page. The prices I have listed come from amazon.com as of December 6th, 2005. Do not try to freelance. If you decide to buy me something not on my wish list, I will likely not be pleasantly surprised because there is a very good chance that I will not want what you have purchased. I have quirky, specific tastes. For example, though I like science-fiction, and kind of like _The Matrix_, I do not like _The Matrix Reloaded_, or _Matrix Revolutions_, and have no interest in owning DVDs of those movies. You probably did not know this before I just told you, and might have been thinking that one of those movies would be a good gift for me, when, in fact, they would not.
> 
> Let me be perfectly clear: if you decide to freelance and buy me something not on my list, and I don’t like it, I will return it. If I cannot return it, I will likely regift the item, or if I cannot regift it, I will likely give it to Goodwill or throw it away. Buying me something not on the list is at your own risk. I will not feel bad for exchanging it or giving it away. In point of fact, I will likely be annoyed with you for making me go through the headache of exchanging the gift for something I actually want. Finally, never get me a “pan and scan” version of a movie (usually labeled with the misleading title “fullscreen”), as I hate that format. If you get me a movie, always make sure it any movie you get me is in widescreen format.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure if I can be more clear than this. Even with this, I anticipate that I will get a copy of _The Chronicles of Riddick_, or _Fletch_ or a tie instead.


(For anyone who cares, here is the website for the Fountainpen Hospital - http://www.fountainpenhospital.com/).


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 6, 2005)

When my husband and I celebrated our first Christmas as a couple, I was appalled when his family demanded a "list" of gifts to get me.  "How could they ruin the surprise of Christmas morning?!" I thought... however, since that time, my mind has changed drastically.

Not only do I now find that my Christmas mornings are filled with things I really want and need... my husband's family has learned to effectively extrapolate things that I would like based on things that are on my list.  I get things that match the clothes I ask for, accessories to go with the academic-type supplies I requested... It's the most amazing thing EVER.

In short - I'm a big fan on the Christmas list.  

SR - I know your pain all too well.  My mom's family in particular has absolutely no clue what sorts of things I would like and does little to attempt to discover what it is I would want.  I've perfected the happy Christmas "This is what I REALLY wanted" smile.  And they don't believe in the concept of the "Christmas List."


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## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

I'm sorry, Storm Raven. but this just comes off as ungrateful to me.  It may be because I came from a poor family, but ever heard the expression 'it's the thought that counts?'


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## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 6, 2005)

I love to get the things on my list, but I'm just as grateful for anything.  My sister hasn't bought me anything I've wanted in 10 years, but the stuff she does buy, while often campy or cheesy, are still pretty cool.  I also look at Christmas as more of a time to give back to someone than to get something for myself.  I buy stuff for me all year long.


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## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

i'm with Eternalknight.

diaglo "we got coal in our stockings and we appreciated it" Ooi


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, Storm Raven. but this just comes off as ungrateful to me.  It may be because I came from a poor family, but ever heard the expression 'it's the thought that counts?'



 I relate to this, as well.  I was raised in a **very** poor family (read: some years, we didn't really have Christmas), but I've married into a family with the money to spoil me a little bit on Christmas... and, as such, I don't find anything wrong with asking for things you actually want.  *shrugs*


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## jonesy (Dec 6, 2005)

I'm always getting tons of chokolate. It's as if people were going by the mantra "if you can't think of anything, get chokolate". I hate chokolate during Christmas. Too much is too much is too much. Chokolate At Christmas, you are my nemesis. One day I'll get you, and then you'll pay. Oh how you'll pay.  



			
				diaglo said:
			
		

> diaglo "we got coal in our stockings and we appreciated it" Ooi



"You got coal? Lucky you. All we got was gravel painted black. And it was the cheap kind, that doesn't dry up completely and gets all over everything. More water than paint really."


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## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Don't get me wrong; if someone asks me what I want for xmas, I tell them.  If I don't get it, though, I don't complain about it.  At least I know I have been thought about.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, Storm Raven. but this just comes off as ungrateful to me.  It may be because I came from a poor family, but ever heard the expression 'it's the thought that counts?'




But if you buy me stuff that I don't want, when I have told you I wanted something else, how much thought did you put into it? If you consistently buy me crap I don't want, would never want, and will never use, you haven't put much thought into the gift. Usually it means you bought me something _you_ like, and expected me to like it too.

I know why my parents got me the pen. My father is a pen geek. He loves expensive pens. I don't. I have told him I don't. He was told what I actually wanted. Instead, he got me a pen. That's not being thoughtful. That's being selfish and uncaring. You didn't care enough about what I wanted to get me something I want, instead, you got me a gift you would like.

"It's the thought that counts" is an empty phrase that people who actually didn't put any thought into their gifts like to resort to to make themselves feel better about the fact that they didn't bother to buy the recipient something they actually wanted. I told you what you wanted - you got me something else. That's not thoughtful. That's rude.

I would prefer to get no gift rather than a gift in which the giver put that little thought.


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## shaylon (Dec 6, 2005)

While I agree that your family should try to do a better job at Christmas, and I think that Gift Certs are the way to go, I sincerely hope that you don't send that message.  It kind of makes you look bad.

My family, when they get me gifts, usually does a pretty bad job at it, but I typically try to use them/make the best of it, and I rarely return anything.  My GF does a great job at Christmas, although she generally doesn't by and gaming stuff and lately she has decided that she will no longer buy any electronic stuff either which is kind of a bummer.  

I didn't necessarily come from a poor family, although I can safely say we weren't rich, but I do appreciate that people get me anything at all.

-Shay


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## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> "It's the thought that counts" is an empty phrase that people who actually didn't put any thought into their gifts like to resort to to make themselves feel better about the fact that they didn't bother to buy the recipient something they actually wanted. I told you what you wanted - you got me something else. That's not thoughtful. That's rude.
> 
> I would prefer to get no gift rather than a gift in which the giver put that little thought.




No, what is rude is you complaining about it.  You got an expensive pen.  Do you realize how lucky you are, even though you didn't want it?  Maybe, instead of returning gifts you don't want, give them to an orphanage or charity; then people who don't get ANYTHING will have a merry christmas as well, and you won't have to put up with a crappy gift.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

shaylon said:
			
		

> While I agree that your family should try to do a better job at Christmas, and I think that Gift Certs are the way to go, I sincerely hope that you don't send that message.  It kind of makes you look bad.




I have tried to be subtle and polite about this in the past. It didn't work. Apparently, they don't hear me when I say "I would like X" and instead buy me something completely different.

Left to themselves, my family and my wife's family get me _bad_ gifts. One year I got an action figure of John Goodman's character from Blues Brothers 2000. I have no idea why someone would get me an action figure of a character from a movie I have never seen, nor expressed any interest in seeing. It sat on a shelf for a year or two collecting dust before I gave it to Goodwill.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> No, what is rude is you complaining about it.




No, it is rude to get someone something they didn't want and expect that they will be happy about it.



> _You got an expensive pen._





When I explicitly told them I wanted something else. When I had previously told them that I don't share my father's love of pens, and don't ever want an expensive pen.



> _Do you realize how lucky you are, even though you didn't want it?_





I am lucky that my parents wasted money on something I previously told them I don't want, will never want, and won't use? I'm glad that having my wishes ignored is something I should feel lucky about.

No, I don't feel "lucky". Nor should I. If you have to say "it is the thought that counts" then you didn't put any thought into the gift. I'm tired of putting on a happy face when people get me crap I don't want. All that does is make them think they did a good job selecting a gift when they didn't. All it does is feed the idea that buying me crap like that makes me happy when it does not.

Here's what people should do when someone buys them a crappy gift: tell the giver that you didn't like what they got. Maybe they will get the hint next time and get you what you want. I should not have to feel bad and pretend you got me a nice gift just to save your feelings if you put that little thought into the gift. You screwed up. Next time, get me no gift instead.



> _Maybe, instead of returning gifts you don't want, give them to an orphanage or charity; then people who don't get ANYTHING will have a merry christmas as well, and you won't have to put up with a crappy gift._





That would be the part where I regift the item or give it to Goodwill. Perhaps you missed that.


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## PirateMary (Dec 6, 2005)

I'm happy getting anything, anything at all.  Just receiving means that I was thought of, regardless whether my desire for the gift is considered.  Many years, growing up, I watched my sister's receive the gifts I asked for. It hurt at the moment but I got to use it too.  No big deal. Gifts are the enhancements to an already special holiday.  Just be grateful you were thought of enough to receive a token, whether you consider it a good or bad gift.


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## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> That would be the part where I regift the item or give it to Goodwill. Perhaps you missed that.




My apologies, I did miss that.  Still, I cannot agree with you making demands so that you get good gifts.  That just comes off as spoilt, arrogant, snobbish and shallow.  Christmas shouldn't be about gifts; it should be about family.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> My apologies, I did miss that.  Still, I cannot agree with you making demands so that you get good gifts.  That just comes off as spoilt, arrogant, snobbish and shallow.  Christmas shouldn't be about gifts; it should be about family.




If you are going to spend money on a gift, it should be something that the recipient wants. I'm as annoyed by the fact that my parents wasted money on the pen as I am that they ignored what I actually told them I wanted to get it for me.

If you are going to ignore what I want, I will return it for something I do want. If that offends you, don't get me anything. That is better than wasting your money on something I don't want.


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## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> If you are going to ignore what I want, I will return it for something I do want.




And nothing wrong with that.  But after reading that email, how are your family going to feel?  You are basically telling them that if they screw up, you are going to be annoyed at them.  Although you might be, and that is your perogative, do you really have to make them feel bad about it?


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> And nothing wrong with that.  But after reading that email, how are your family going to feel?  You are basically telling them that if they screw up, you are going to be annoyed at them.  Although you might be, and that is your perogative, do you really have to make them feel bad about it?




I have put up with pretending I liked stuff they got me for years. Stuff they got me after I explicitly told them I wanted something else. They should feel bad if they continue to ignore a request made this explicitly. Heck, they should feel bad for ignoring my previous, polite requests. All my pretending that I'm not annoyed is going to do is give them the impression that they got me something I liked, when they really didn't.

If I tell you "I want X" and you go out and get me something else (and cost is not an issue here, the pen in question cost me than anything on my list), then the fallout is on you, not me. I gave you directions, and you ignored them in favor of being "spontaneous" or "surprising". I do not like either of those things. I will not feel bad that you decided to ignore my requests and freelance. That's your fault, not mine.


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## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Well, the spirit of Christmas is certainly alive and well within you.  Maybe, instead of demanding gifts, just tell them to get you nothing; if I got a demand like what you made, you'd be _very_ lucky to get anything from me at all.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a moment.  If you got an email from someone telling you that, what would you think?

It's certainly obvious that money is no issue; I'm guessing it was no issue when you were a child either; in fact, I'd hazard a guess that you were spoiled as a child (that is not an attack on you, by the way; if you were spoiled, that is not your fault).  I guess, with our different background (assuming I am right), we are going to just have to disagree on this issue.


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## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

If I received an email like that from a family member, (1) I'd be _incredibly_ insulted, (2) I'd never buy another gift for that person again, for any occasion, and (3) I'd never accept a gift from that person again, for any occasion.

If you're intent is to hurt people's feelings and drive a deeper wedge into your relationship with these people, then you've definitely found an easy way to do it.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> Well, the spirit of Christmas is certainly alive and well within you.  Maybe, instead of demanding gifts, just tell them to get you nothing; if I got a demand like what you made, you'd be _very_ lucky to get anything from me at all.




I would prefer that to your getting me stuff I don't want. If you aren't going to consider my desires when you spend money on a gift for me, then don't bother doing it.



> _Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a moment.  If you got an email from someone telling you that, what would you think?_





I would get them what they want. Of course, I don't have to be hit with a ton of bricks to do that, I take hints and suggestions. I look for them actually - I usually ask people I am getting gifts for "what do you want", and then get them that.



> _It's certainly obvious that money is no issue;_





No, it is not that money is no issue. In this case, money is not an issue, because the amount my parents are willing to spend on a gift is in line with what I would want. You may note that my list includes a wide array of gift options, at a variety of proice points. I expect some people will want to spend less than $20 on a gift, there are options for that.



> _I'm guessing it was no issue when you were a child either;_





No, quite the opposite. The best Christmas gift I ever got as a child was a second-hand bicycle that someone was going to throw out, but that my father restored and gave me. Like most of my gifts, it cost virtually nothing, because we were poor. But I _wanted_ a bicycle, and my father knew it, so it was a great gift.



> _ in fact, I'd hazard a guess that you were spoiled as a child (that is not an attack on you, by the way; if you were spoiled, that is not your fault).  I guess, with our different background (assuming I am right), we are going to just have to disagree on this issue._





Your assumption is erroneous. My position stems from the fact that we had little money when I was a child. If you are going to spend money buying me something, buy me something I want. Don't waste your time or money on crap I don't want. It just wastes your cash and annoys me. Just get me nothing instead.


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## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Your assumption is erroneous. My position stems from the fact that we had little money when I was a child. If you are going to spend money buying me something, buy me something I want. Don't waste your time or money on crap I don't want. It just wastes your cash and annoys me. Just get me nothing instead.




Then I stand corrected.  I can now see where you are coming from; still, the way you are going about it is hurtful to other people, and makes you looks as I said; arrogant, snobbish, spoiled and shallow.  If you are worried about people spending money on you, simply organize for your family to put a price limit on gifts; or, tell them not to spend much money on you.  Don't do it the way you have said; it's just hurtful and insulting. 

Even then, if they spend over the limit, it is their perogative.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> If I received an email like that from a family member, (1) I'd be _incredibly_ insulted, (2) I'd never buy another gift for that person again, for any occasion, and (3) I'd never accept a gift from that person again, for any occasion.




So, instead, you would rather they hide the fact that you consistently get them gifts they don't want. You would rather continue the charade that you are making them happy, when in fact, you are just insulting them every time you get them a gift that shows you didn't take their desires into consideration.

People talk all the time about how they would be insulted that someone would tell them they got crappy gifts. Well, _I'm_ insulted that family members, who are supposed to care about me, don't bother to take my desires into account when giving a gift. That sort of gift is an insult, it just says "I feel obligated to get you something, but I didn't care enough to get you something you would like, here, have a pile of crap and pretend you like it". You want rude and insulting, _that's_ the sort of attidute that is rude and insulting. Far more so than anything I've said here.

Demanding that people pretend they like your gifts when they don't is rude. How this became socially acceptable is astounding. If you got me a bad gift, I will tell you. If you don't want to run that risk, get me what I told you I want, or don't get me anything at all. Either is preferable to you grabbing the first thing that catches your eye when you go to Target and expecting that I will gush over you for something that you clearly spent nine seconds of your life thinking about.


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## Lorgrom (Dec 6, 2005)

Getting a gift you don't want/will ever use vs getting nothing.

I vote for getting nothing. 

I have to agree when a family does a list for christmas, then people should buy off the list. After growing up in a very poor household, you kinda expect christmass (heck most holidays) to be nothing more then others flaunting things infront of you. So when I got married and her family did the christmass list thing. I was initaly shocked. Though I learned quickly that a list amounts to jack and S&*t to most people. So anymore, when people ask me what I want for chrismass. I tell them if they get me something, they need to pay attention to what perks my interest during the year. If they can not figure it out from 11.5 months of observation, then donate what they would have spent on me to some goodwill orginization.

Its better to receive nothing then something that will sit on your shelf for years and never be opened.

Perhaps the money they would have wasted on buying me something that is a waste, will give some kid growing up in a similar situation the spark that will keep christmass alive in him.


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## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

Sometimes though people try to get others something they like, they just guess wrong.  I would fine your letter a bit rude.  Christmas is not about getting gifts you'll love and want.  This just reads selfish to me.


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## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Lorgrom said:
			
		

> Its better to receive nothing then something that will sit on your shelf for years and never be opened.




Yet so many people send Christmas cards, which are essentially useless gifts that sit on your shelf doing nothing.  Yet people do it, year after year.  Why?  To show others you are thinking about them.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> Then I stand corrected.  I can now see where you are coming from; still, the way you are going about it is hurtful to other people, and makes you looks as I said; arrogant, snobbish, spoiled and shallow.  If you are worried about people spending money on you, simply organize for your family to put a price limit on gifts; or, tell them not to spend much money on you.  Don't do it the way you have said; it's just hurtful and insulting.




We have a price limit. They get me crap that costs me less than the price limit.

You aren't understanding the process here. I have given hints, suggestions, and even list of what I would like for _years_. Every year, just about the only person who ever gets me anything I actually want is my wife. Everyone else gets me stuff that I would never want and we go through the dance of my pretending that the rubber shoe covers my mother-in-law got me are what I really wanted, and then my trying to figure out how I am going to get rid of the things.

I have tried addressing this issue subtly. I have tried hints. I have tried polite suggestions. I have made lists of things I want. Instead, every year I get stuff that I have no desire to own. So I'm going to be blunt. If they can't understand what I am saying when I say it politely, I'm going to flat out say it with no sugar coating. And then they will know where I stand, and I won't feel bad returning everything I get every year.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Sometimes though people try to get others something they like, they just guess wrong.




Perhaps you missed the fact that _they don't have to guess_. I have told them for _years_ what I want every year in the vain hope that they will actually do that. If I didn't offer suggestions, and they got me something that they guessed on and missed, that would be one thing. But I have told them what I would like, every year for the last decade or more. And they ignore me, and get me other stuff.

Who is being rude? The person who ignores the desires of the person they are buying for year after year, or the recipient who tells them to stop getting him stuff he doesn't want?


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> Yet so many people send Christmas cards, which are essentially useless gifts that sit on your shelf doing nothing.  Yet people do it, year after year.  Why?  To show others you are thinking about them.




Spending $1.95 on a useless gift is one thing. Spending lots of money on a useless gift and expecting me to pretend to like it is another.


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## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> So, instead, you would rather they hide the fact that you consistently get them gifts they don't want. You would rather continue the charade that you are making them happy, when in fact, you are just insulting them every time you get them a gift that shows you didn't take their desires into consideration.
> 
> People talk all the time about how they would be insulted that someone would tell them they got crappy gifts. Well, _I'm_ insulted that family members, who are supposed to care about me, don't bother to take my desires into account when giving a gift. That sort of gift is an insult, it just says "I feel obligated to get you something, but I didn't care enough to get you something you would like, here, have a pile of crap and pretend you like it". You want rude and insulting, _that's_ the sort of attidute that is rude and insulting. Far more so than anything I've said here.
> 
> Demanding that people pretend they like your gifts when they don't is rude. How this became socially acceptable is astounding. If you got me a bad gift, I will tell you. If you don't want to run that risk, get me what I told you I want, or don't get me anything at all. Either is preferable to you grabbing the first thing that catches your eye when you go to Target and expecting that I will gush over you for something that you clearly spent nine seconds of your life thinking about.



You're assuming that the giver has put no effort or thought into the gift, or maybe is doing it maliciously to insult you.  It's that assumption I find incredibly insulting and rude.  But you and I obviously disagree on what's insulting and rude.

And, of course, at the end of the day, if you're insulted by their gifts, 



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> That's your fault, not mine.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> You're assuming that the giver has put no effort or thought into the gift, or maybe is doing it maliciously to insult you.  It's that assumption I find incredibly insulting and rude.  But you and I obviously disagree on what's insulting and rude.




If I give you a list of what I want, and you instead, buy me something else that's insulting to me. It is not endearing. It is not a pleasant surprise. It means that you decided that you know better than me what I want. It means, for the most part, that you didn't bother to look for what I said I wanted, and just got what you could find.

And to tell the truth, you will probably get it wrong. I like the original _Star Wars_ Trilogy, and have them all on DVD. I do not like the prequel trilogy and own none of them on DVD. There is a reason for that. You, guessing, would probably think "hey, he likes _Star Wars_, let's get him a copy of _Attack of the Clones_ or _Revenge of the Sith_, he'll like that". And no, I won't, because I do not want them, and have no desire to ever own them.

Or, even more likely (if you are a member of my family) you will think "he likes movies, let's get him a copy of _Billy Madison_, I loved that movie". And in fact, I hate Adam Sandler with the passion of 10,000 burning suns, and will be offended to even have a copy of any of his movies in my house for the 24 hours before I can go to the store and return the stupid thing. And I will be offended that you didn't remember that I hate Adam Sandler movies.

But you will expect that I will pretend that I liked your gift, and appreciate it. Well, here's some news: I didn't. Your gift was an awful choice. If you had stuck to the list, you would have made me happy, showed you cared about what I wanted, and showed that you actually took the time to get me something for me, and not a gift you would like for yourself.


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## Jonny Nexus (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> Well, the spirit of Christmas is certainly alive and well within you.  Maybe, instead of demanding gifts, just tell them to get you nothing; if I got a demand like what you made, you'd be _very_ lucky to get anything from me at all.




Ditto. You have no right to either demand that someone give you a gift, or tell them what that gift should be.

What you do have is the right to ask them not to give you a gift. If the gifts that they are giving you are upsetting you, then I suggest you exercise that right.


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## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Ditto. You have no right to either demand that someone give you a gift, or tell them what that gift should be.
> 
> What you do have is the right to ask them not to give you a gift. If the gifts that they are giving you are upsetting you, then I suggest you exercise that right.



ditto.

but like Storm Raven i donate gifts i don't like to charity. and when the original giver asks me why they never seeing me wear or use said item. i tell them i gave it to someone more needy.

mitt trees, toys for tots, food bank, goodwill... there are a lot of charities looking for help before, during, and after the holidays.


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## Umbran (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> If you consistently buy me crap I don't want, would never want, and will never use, you haven't put much thought into the gift.




But, if you just pick an item off a list, you aren't exactly putting a lot of thought into the gift either.  

And that's part of the problem.  A real gift-giver wants to get you something you like, but thye also want to express _themselves_.  A gift from them to you may mean something.  A gift from your list to you means... that they can pick from a list.  

It is, however, my observataion that you can't manage to do this properly unless you live with (or are otherwise in close contact with) the person in question.  My parents were excellent gift-givers for me, up until I went away to college.  After that point, they couldn't see what I'd enjoy without asking me directly.  And that's kind of sad.

These days, I do a list, but I either make it broad, or long.  I don't care much about recieving, but I want to facilitate giving.  I want the giver to be able to find something on my list that says, "This is from me..."  I try to make it easy for them to express themselves to me.

For me, X-mas isn't about what the reciever wants, so much as it is about generosity and sharing.  If they put thought into it, even if it is the wrong thing, they do show they care.  And that's what I really care about.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> For me, X-mas isn't about what the reciever wants, so much as it is about generosity and sharing.




If you buy someone something they don't want, then that displays neither generosity nor sharing. That displays selfishness. You didn't get what _they_ wanted, you got what you wanted them to have. Generosity involves giving the recipient what they desire, not something you think they should desire.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> You have no right to either demand that someone give you a gift, or tell them what that gift should be.




Then you have no right to expect that I should pretend to like what you gave me. And no right to be upset that I returned it for something else, or gave it away.

If you get me something I don't want, I'm not keeping it.


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## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

Umbran said it better than I could've.  Giving you a gift other than one you specifically requested does not equal not putting thought into it.  Are you saying that you'd be insulted by _anything_ a person gave you that isn't on your list, even if it turns out to be something you love?


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## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I would prefer to get no gift rather than a gift in which the giver put that little thought.




Not getting what you want is not the same thing as someone putting in very little or no thought.  Perhaps they genuinely thought you could use item X, or they don't like buying off lists because of the lack of surprise or the naked greed it implies?

Frankly, you come across as the one with the problem here, not your family.  If you're going to return or regift items, do it with class, and accept whatever you're given with a smile on your face and genuine gratitude that they decided to get you anything at all despite your antics.


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## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Then you have no right to expect that I should pretend to like what you gave me. And no right to be upset that I returned it for something else, or gave it away.



Of course, you have no right to dictate what upsets other people.  That's no different from someone telling you you have no right to be upset that someone bought you  gift that wasn't on your list.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> Umbran said it better than I could've.  Giving you a gift other than one you specifically requested does not equal not putting thought into it.  Are you saying that you'd be insulted by _anything_ a person gave you that isn't on your list, even if it turns out to be something you love?




No. read my message again. I said that getting me something that is not on my list runs the risk of getting something I don't want, and I will not feel bad about returning or giving away any gift I don't want. I also pointed out that my tastes are going to be hard for anyone to figure out (even my wife doesn't know entirely what I do and do not like). So I've made it easy on my family - I have told them what I like. Freelancing is risky, just because I like _The Lord of the Rings_ doesn't mean I want a copy of the _Dungeons and Dragons_ movie. If you get that for me, then I *will* return it for something I want.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Then you have no right to expect that I should pretend to like what you gave me. And no right to be upset that I returned it for something else, or gave it away.
> 
> If you get me something I don't want, I'm not keeping it.



Merry Feast of the Pig.

This whole tirade of yours is why I rarely bother to even worry about what I'm getting so many people.

They return it.
They carp about it.
They snivel it wasn't on thier list.
They don't notice that I went out and got it, spent money I could have bought a 6-pack of beer with, took the time and effort to actually think of them, and cared enough to buy a gift.

I came from a "we got gravel and pretended it was coal" poor family growing up.

Honestly, your degree of selfishness and "Gimme what *I* want just reeks of spoiled little brat to me.

You list fairly expensive gifts (3-5 hours of my hard work, depending on what job I'm doing) would make me just cross you off my list. Since you obvious feel that it is your God given right to complain about a *GIFT*, and to be ungrateful, selfish, and downright demanding, I'd excersize my right to buy you card that said the following:

"Life is tough
Times are hard.
Buy your own damned
Christmas Card"

I mean, seriously. You parents bought you a nice fountain pen, something to set on the desk and have as a nick-nack, and all you can do is whine because they didn't buy you your favorite DVD off of a list?

Try being grateful that they actually bought you something. Say "Thank You", place it on your desk where it looks nice, and move on with life.

Christmas isn't about GETTING WHAT YOU WANT, it's about giving out of the goodness of your heart.


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## buzzard (Dec 6, 2005)

Personally I have to go with SR on this. 

People throwing away money on unwanted items is just stupid. The polite face that one has to put on about loving the gift, even if you loathe is it a farce. 

I'd rather get nothing from people than have to do the ritualistic polite lying that is inherent in random unwanted gifts. I hate to lie. I don't particularly enjoy doing it even to be polite. 

I make a list each year and provide it to people who are likely to buy me something. If they get me nothing, fine. If they follow the list, fine. If they simply give me a gift certificate, that is fine as well. However if you buy me something I'll never use and expect me to be grateful, I'll probably have a hard time doing the polite lie thing to make you happy. 

I still have one Christmas gift given to me that I never wanted sitting on a shelf. I suppose I should just drop it off at Goodwill or something. I just never get around to it. 

buzzard


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> Not getting what you want is not the same thing as someone putting in very little or no thought.  Perhaps they genuinely thought you could use item X, or they don't like buying off lists because of the lack of surprise or the naked greed it implies?




I have told them I generally don't want things not on my list. Why should I have to pretend to be happy getting something that I didn't ask for, and do not want? I don't want a surprise. In point of fact, I dislike surprises, and I have made no secret about this to anyone who knows me. If you are going to spend money, spend money on something I actually want, don't throw your cash away on something else.



> _Frankly, you come across as the one with the problem here, not your family.  If you're going to return or regift items, do it with class, and accept whatever you're given with a smile on your face and genuine gratitude that they decided to get you anything at all despite your antics._





Ah yes. The pretend happiness. That's what is important. When someone does a crappy job at getting you something you want, despite your attempts to aid them in getting you something you actually do want, you should pretend that you are happy about it. That is the stupidest social convention of the holidat season. If you get me a crappy gift, despite my suggestions as to what would be a good gift, then you deserve to feel bad. I am going to be disappointed, and probably out the next day taking your gift back. I don't think I should feel gratitude when someone gets me a gift I don't want, despite my attempts to direct them to a gift I do want. The gift giver is rude in that case - they ignored my desires, and substituted their own.


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## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

I don't think your message is inherently wrong - "I'd like this stuff please if you're going to spend money on me".  We all like to have gifts that we open that we genuinely like.

I think the problem's in your presentation.  Whether you mean to or not, you come across as extremely selfish and rude and focused on the items rather than on the intent behind the gifts.  I suspect you don't really want to do so, but that you're struggling to find a way to get the message across clearly.  At some point you may simply need to accept defeat on the issue and smile happily before going off to return/exchange your gifts.  Or you could just keep them and enjoy them in the spirit they were given, if they're not too horrible.


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## billd91 (Dec 6, 2005)

I maintain a list on Amazon.com for stuff that I would like and direct people to it even if they don't intend to shop on Amazon to get it. If someone buys something on the list, they usually just let my wife know and she takes it off my list. I do the same for her. 

I have to say that I empathize with Storm Raven to a certain degree. Consistently getting gifts off list, way off list in some cases, is annoying, especially when that gift is fairly expensive and pretty much useless to you. I too would be particularly irked at an expensive pen. I too have always considered expensive pens a ridiculous luxury when a Bic does the job just fine.

That said, I try to keep a lid on my complaints because I don't really want to sound ungrateful and I try to never let the giver know if I'm really irritated. I just quietly return the thing and move on. Over the years, my sister and my wife have both made the most missteps when getting me gifts. To this day, I'm not sure my wife knows how many things she's given me that I've taken back. On one occasion, I had caught wind from clues she dropped that she got me a Game Boy Advanced. She thought I'd like it because I was playing a friend's GBA at a get together. In reality, I hate the little things (I've never liked Nintendo's pad controllers) and was only noodling around a little to check it out. So I subtlely steered the conversation in the direction of console and handheld games one day and let it drop that I didn't like GBAs. She persisted in giving me the unit and I promptly took it back to Toys R Us and got some Legos instead. The following year, she did a little more feeling out of what I wanted when it came to bigger ticket items and we got an Xbox instead.

My mother learned years ago it was easier to buy off my list, partly because she knew I was very interested in gaming, movies, and music and going from a list helps her avoid duplicates.


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## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No. read my message again.



You mean this one?


			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> If I give you a list of what I want, and you instead, buy me something else that's insulting to me.


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## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I have told them I generally don't want things not on my list. Why should I have to pretend to be happy getting something that I didn't ask for, and do not want? I don't want a surprise. In point of fact, I dislike surprises, and I have made no secret about this to anyone who knows me. If you are going to spend money, spend money on something I actually want, don't throw your cash away on something else.




Because it's not all about you, even when you're receiving gifts.  You're no less expected to be gracious at christmas than you are in any other family situation.  Your family aren't giving you 'bad' gifts to insult or infuriate you, they're trying to make you happy in their own way, which may not follow your script.  Such is life.


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## billd91 (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And to tell the truth, you will probably get it wrong. I like the original _Star Wars_ Trilogy, and have them all on DVD. I do not like the prequel trilogy and own none of them on DVD. There is a reason for that. You, guessing, would probably think "hey, he likes _Star Wars_, let's get him a copy of _Attack of the Clones_ or _Revenge of the Sith_, he'll like that". And no, I won't, because I do not want them, and have no desire to ever own them.




It's at this point that I think Storm Raven is getting too snitty. Seeing a particular movie on the list and getting something similar is not buying way off list and should be accepted with grace (even if you do, ultimately, decide to return it). When it comes to lists, people often think, "Oh, someone will probably get him that but this is close and might come as a nice surprise," and that IS reasonably thoughtful.
It's also a good way to discover something that you didn't know you liked.


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## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

About the "fake happiness": it's all perspective.  Even if I don't like a gift I've received, I'm still thankful that the person spent the time, effort and money in an attempt to make me happy, and I can honestly say "thank you for the gift" even if I know I'm never going to use it.  Nothing fake there.  The gifts I treasure most aren't treasured because they were exactly what I wanted - I treasure them because they make me think about the person who gave them to me.  An expensive pen from my parents, knowing my father loves pens and probably put a lot of thought into picking out one he thought I might like?  Even if I never used the pen, I'd think fondly of my father every time I saw it sitting on the desk.


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## fett527 (Dec 6, 2005)

*I * want, *I * want, *I * want.  *I'm * insulted, *I'm * insulted, *I'm * insulted.  *I'm * annoyed, *I'm * annoyed, *I'm * annoyed.

*I'd * venture a guess someone needs a little lesson on what Christmas is really about.


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## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

There are thousands of people who will receive nothing more this Christmas than barely enough food to get by, if that. There are thousands of kids who have no one to spend Christmas with and will not get gifts at all. I'm sorry you got an expensive pen from parents who obviously love you. You certainly are a victim of the season.


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## Desdichado (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> "It's the thought that counts" is an empty phrase that people who actually didn't put any thought into their gifts like to resort to to make themselves feel better about the fact that they didn't bother to buy the recipient something they actually wanted. I told you what you wanted - you got me something else. That's not thoughtful. That's rude.



And yet... not nearly as rude as your reaction to it.  If you were in _my_ family, you could probably look forward to nothing at all this year from me.


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## buzzard (Dec 6, 2005)

OK, since SR seems to be on the verge of being burned in effigy, let's try an example to put this in perspective. 

Someone gets you a gift. They decide to give you a year subscription to a political magazine which promotes a viewpoint you abhor. They know your politics. You politely point out after getting the gift that you don't agree with what the magazine offers. You mention that you'd rather not have a magazine subscription since you never get around to reading them much (polite fib), and would rather have a fruitcake (obvious fib, nobody likes fruitcake). 

The next year they buy you a different subscription, but to a magazine of like viewpoint which still annoys you. 

Is the onus on you to be gracious when someone has given you a gift which honestly is designed to force their views upon you? 

buzzard


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## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Perhaps you missed the fact that _they don't have to guess_. I have told them for _years_ what I want every year in the vain hope that they will actually do that. If I didn't offer suggestions, and they got me something that they guessed on and missed, that would be one thing. But I have told them what I would like, every year for the last decade or more. And they ignore me, and get me other stuff.
> 
> Who is being rude? The person who ignores the desires of the person they are buying for year after year, or the recipient who tells them to stop getting him stuff he doesn't want?




And sometimes people try to get gifts not from alist.  Perhaps they can't find the items, perhaps they forgot the list or lost it.  What is rude is the way you are doing it and the sounds of the words.  Getting someone a gift that they might not like that is not off their list is not rude in any sense of the word.  I think you are over reacting to getting bad gifts and sounding a bit childish.


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## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> OK, since SR seems to be on the verge of being burned in effigy, let's try an example to put this in perspective.
> 
> Someone gets you a gift. They decide to give you a year subscription to a political magazine which promotes a viewpoint you abhor. They know your politics. You politely point out after getting the gift that you don't agree with what the magazine offers. You mention that you'd rather not have a magazine subscription since you never get around to reading them much (polite fib), and would rather have a fruitcake (obvious fib, nobody likes fruitcake).
> 
> ...




Apples and oranges. We're not talking about undermining someone's political viewpoints. We're talking about getting the wrong DVD or something innocuous like that. Nothing has been done to blatantly say "I hate you" which is what your magazine example would do.


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## buzzard (Dec 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Apples and oranges. We're not talking about undermining someone's political viewpoints. We're talking about getting the wrong DVD or something innocuous like that. Nothing has been done to blatantly say "I hate you" which is what your magazine example would do.




You are ascribing motives to the magazine selection. The political bias could be slight, but enough to annoy the recipient. Maybe the giver doesn't even see the bias but you do. That is possible with some people. 

SR has said he thinks spending a lot of money on pens is wasteful, and has explained this to the givers. Yet he gets pens for Christmas. This is somehow not comparable? They have deliberately scorned his viewpoint. 

The funniest thing here is that people say that if they got SR's letter they'd stop giving gifts. My impression is that he's be happier with no gifts than people wasting money on wrong gifts. The threat of no gift rings rather hollow. 

buzzard


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## Henry (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> Then I stand corrected.  I can now see where you are coming from;




This is why we ask fellow posters not to ascribe motives to their peers.  Often, it's something else entirely, and the level of being insulted tends to escalate.


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## Ambrus (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> nobody likes fruitcake



I like fruitcake, as long as its free of nuts. Nuts are the death of fruitcake. It's called *fruit*cake for a reason.


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## Kanegrundar (Dec 6, 2005)

Wow.  It seems like every year another person gets placed into the class of the truly ungrateful list.  Looks like Storm Raven is the big "winner" this year.  

I understand not getting what you want and not being happy about it, but hey that's life.  Like Ralts said, they could have gotten you jack squat.  I get all sorts of stuff every year that I didn't ask for or really don't like, but I like that they thought enough of me to get me anything in the first place, so I don't feel bad about it.  I just take the items back and either get the cash or exchange it for something I like.  

I really hope you do send your little list out, and your family is insulted by it enough to get you nothing for Christmas.  If that sounded harsh, that's because it was meant to.  The attitude you're exhibiting is that of a small child, not a well-adjusted adult.


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## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> You are ascribing motives to the magazine selection. The political bias could be slight, but enough to annoy the recipient. Maybe the giver doesn't even see the bias but you do. That is possible with some people.
> 
> SR has said he thinks spending a lot of money on pens is wasteful, and has explained this to the givers. Yet he gets pens for Christmas. This is somehow not comparable? They have deliberately scorned his viewpoint.
> 
> ...




Maybe in real life people like SR just as much as the people replying in this thread.


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## Henry (Dec 6, 2005)

For my part, I prefer a list of two or three things, just so I can choose one and make sure they're happy. It's ALWAYS best when I have picked up through clues earlier in the month or year what they want, because that there is the ultimate demonstration that you care enough to have been listening, and you paid enough time and attention to them to be in tune with them. In the absence of this, a gift certificate or list is the best thing, because there's being appreciative of a gift, but I'd rather what I got them be USED. If someone doesn't get enjoyment or use out of my gift, then I've not accomplished what I set out to do, because the enjoyment to me is the part where they tell me that they actually got to do something with that gift.


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## Fenris (Dec 6, 2005)

Why don't you save time. Everyone sit in a circle, take out a $20 and pass it to the person on your left. Then say Merry Christmas. You're done and you don't have to return it and can buy just what you want and no one has to think put any thought or care or love or consideration into the process.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Dec 6, 2005)

I frequently ask for gift certificates to some of my favorite places like Bath and Body Works and Yankee Candle because I don't expect people to be able to know what scent strikes my fancy... however, when I do that, I make sure to write what I got with the gift certificate specifically in my Thank You note.


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## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Maybe in real life people like SR just as much as the people replying in this thread.



that has been my experience with SR on every board i've encountered him.

must be the lawyer in him.


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## Henry (Dec 6, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> If that sounded harsh, that's because it was meant to.  The attitude you're exhibiting is that of a small child, not a well-adjusted adult.




And I'll start with my "let's lay off the name-calling" requests, now.

I have a counterpoint: Would you rather that someone accept a gift without complaint even if it didn't work out,  or that they would actually be able to enjoy the gift you sent? I prefer the latter, myself, because that's the part that brings me the greatest joy. And if they said, "I'd prefer gift certificates", that's OK with me, too.

It's why my wife and I always have a portion of Christmas that's gifted by lists to one another, with the understanding that not everything's going to be bought. At the least, some of the gifts truly light the person's face up on Christmas day. You might ask why we don't know one another well enough to just buy on impulse; we do, but we also keep tight-lipped about things we REALLY want during the rest of the year when money is tighter, or we save up and buy these things as we can, leaving very little unbought at year's end. On my side, my wife, bless her, has no clue what's what among gaming materials, and every year she's tried to buy gaming stuff for me I've had to exchange it, so she insists on lists herself. 

And I'm not the type of man who is confident of ladies' fashions to buy the right style outright.  THAT's what gift certificates are for.


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## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Well, two sides of this argument have been covered fairly in-depth.  I will admit SR, that I am not in agreement with your side.  I hate surprises (and due to working for a Mail Order company that specializes in Christmas, I not really high on the holiday spirit) and would much rather get what I want when I want it, but my responsibility as an adult, a husband and a father is to show the spirit of Christmas in spite of what I get.  We don't always get what we want, but handling it with grace is an endearing trait.

The third side of the argument has been only lightly touched upon.  What about the gift giver who wants to surprise the giftee?  The original post paints this person as a malicious demon who purposely strays from the path of light in order to annoy the giftee (I am obviously dramatizing).  I remember a Christmas where my mom walked in the room as my dad was placing a special gift.  This ruined the surprise and angered my dad to the point where the gift was thrown away, choice words were used and the children decided that we would be happier playing in our room (he had a few anger issues, which were probably factors in his early death).  This is an extreme example, but in this case the fact that the surprise was blown had the same effect on the gift giver as the bad gifts have on the original poster.

So, since this subject can be annoying on both sides of the argument (the giftee who wants certain items or the gifter who wants to surprise the giftee), one is left to wonder what to do.  Well, my take on it is that both sides should maintain some Christmas spirit over the whole thing, but since the gifter is the one doing the giving, then the giftee should accept what he is given.  What you do with the gift after that is your business.


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## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> nobody likes fruitcake




i used to love fruitcake. it was something my grandmother made. i miss her.

i have a hard time around Christmas too. not for the giving and receiving of gifts, but from the memories. and from living so far away from my family.

i lost my great grandmother xmas 1979. my grandmother xmas 1983. my grandfather xmas 2001.

thinking about the things i used to love getting at xmas like my grandmother's fruitcake. or going to visit my grandfather. or watching my nieces and nephews open gifts. really makes it tough during the holidays.


diaglo " who has 4 great grandnephews" Ooi


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## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> ...I have a counterpoint: Would you rather that someone accept a gift without complaint even if it didn't work out,  or that they would actually be able to enjoy the gift you sent?...




Well, of course I would prefer the latter, but some people want the challenge of finding their own gift that they think the giftee would like.  I am personally not that type of person (only rarely do I go for the unexpected surprise, and even then only with my wife), but I can understand that person's motivation.  To them, sure they may be very hit and miss, but it's their money and you are not out anything.

I guess in the end, acting with a certain amount of grace is very important to me (and I lack grace far more often than I would like).  I am not trying to throw stones from a glass house, but am trying to give the same advice that I give to myself and my children (not that any of you are my children - I'm not that old).


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## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> ...nobody likes fruitcake...




I love fruitcake.  My oldest daughter doesn't as I found out when we had this exchange:

Me: "mmmm, fruit and cake"

Cristina: "duh dad, that's why it tastes like crap"


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## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

We had Xmas with my parents this past weekend, as work schedules and 500km distance between us means we won't be seeing each other until after the holidays.

I got a cordless screwdriver/drill and a studfinder from my father.  Now, I live in an apartment with concrete walls, so even if I were inclined to engage in a little home construction, I couldn't do so for multiple reasons.

Nevertheless, despite the immediate uselessness of the gift (worse, since i"ll have to store it in already limited space), I thanked him and took pleasure in the thought.  You see, he was thinking that my wife and I were wanting to buy a house, and that it'd be useful for us then.  What on the face of it might appear as a completely useless and throw-away gift actually had a fair bit of personal thought involved, since it was a more concrete step toward our ultimate home-ownership goal than anything we've accomplished in the last year.

While a cool DVD or some star wars gear might have made me immediately happy, I know I'll have the tools for years and think of my father whenever I use them, long after he's no longer with us.

The quality of a gift is in the thought and the graciousness of its reception.


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## Regdar (Dec 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> There are thousands of people who will receive nothing more this Christmas than barely enough food to get by, if that. There are thousands of kids who have no one to spend Christmas with and will not get gifts at all. I'm sorry you got an expensive pen from parents who obviously love you. You certainly are a victim of the season.



Rep ++


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## Kanegrundar (Dec 6, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> I have a counterpoint: Would you rather that someone accept a gift without complaint even if it didn't work out,  or that they would actually be able to enjoy the gift you sent? I prefer the latter, myself, because that's the part that brings me the greatest joy. And if they said, "I'd prefer gift certificates", that's OK with me, too.




I prefer to get things that others would like, sure.  However, if I gave a bum gift, I sure as heck don't want to hear whining about how it's not something they wanted.  That attitude would keep them from getting something from me next year.  There's a right and a wrong way to accept a gift you didn't want.  "Thank you for the sweater grandma, but I've already got enough shirts.  I appreciate the thought though." That's a helluva lot better than being snippy about the gift.



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> It's why my wife and I always have a portion of Christmas that's gifted by lists to one another, with the understanding that not everything's going to be bought. At the least, some of the gifts truly light the person's face up on Christmas day. You might ask why we don't know one another well enough to just buy on impulse; we do, but we also keep tight-lipped about things we REALLY want during the rest of the year when money is tighter, or we save up and buy these things as we can, leaving very little unbought at year's end. On my side, my wife, bless her, has no clue what's what among gaming materials, and every year she's tried to buy gaming stuff for me I've had to exchange it, so she insists on lists herself.




My Fiancee and I do the same thing.  We each try to get 1 or 2 things off the list and any other gifts to each other are things we think the other will like.  That's pretty easy for a couple that are around each other all the time to do.  We can pick up on subtle cues from each other that others can't.  Yet at the same time, we I get some cologne that I don't really like I don't take her to task about it.  I just say it's not my style and then we'll go back to the mall together to pick out something I like that she finds pleasing as well.  (Yeah, I still  try to impress her even though I've "got" her.  )



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> And I'm not the type of man who is confident of ladies' fashions to buy the right style outright.  THAT's what gift certificates are for.




Oh yeah.  Gift cards for clothes are always the safe bet.  Better than me trying to pick the stuff out.  I'll still get her something I've put thought into.


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## fett527 (Dec 6, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Well, two sides of this argument have been covered fairly in-depth.  I will admit SR, that I am not in agreement with your side.  I hate surprises (and due to working for a Mail Order company that specializes in Christmas, I not really high on the holiday spirit) and would much rather get what I want when I want it, but my responsibility as an adult, a husband and a father is to show the spirit of Christmas in spite of what I get.  We don't always get what we want, but handling it with grace is an endearing trait...



If you're still reading this thread, Storm Raven, read this paragraph over and over and over again until it sinks in.

Well put FickleGM, well put.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> They snivel it wasn't on thier list.
> They don't notice that I went out and got it, spent money I could have bought a 6-pack of beer with, took the time and effort to actually think of them, and cared enough to buy a gift.




No, you didn't think about them. If you had, you would have gotten them something on their list. Instead, you got them soemthing you wanted them to have, and not something they actually wanted. The selfish individual in this scenario is you.



> _You list fairly expensive gifts (3-5 hours of my hard work, depending on what job I'm doing) would make me just cross you off my list._





So, a $14 CD is a "fairly expensive gift". In that case, I'd hope you would cross me off your list. You are clearly too poor to afford to give gifts to begin with.



> _Try being grateful that they actually bought you something. Say "Thank You", place it on your desk where it looks nice, and move on with life._





My desk is covered with papers and office supplies. My desk has always been that way. Placing that pen on my desk is tantamount to losing it. And the fact that I know I will lose the pen is why I do not want it.



> _Christmas isn't about GETTING WHAT YOU WANT, it's about giving out of the goodness of your heart._





If you gave out of the goodness of your heart, you would give people things that they actually want. Not things you decided they should want.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> I maintain a list on Amazon.com for stuff that I would like and direct people to it even if they don't intend to shop on Amazon to get it.




I did that. I didn't get anything on the list.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> Because it's not all about you, even when you're receiving gifts.  You're no less expected to be gracious at christmas than you are in any other family situation.




And I'm expected to pretend I like gifts given on other occassions too. Sorry, no thanks. All that does is reinforce the erroneous belief that I am happy with the lousy gifts.



> _Your family aren't giving you 'bad' gifts to insult or infuriate you, they're trying to make you happy in their own way, which may not follow your script.  Such is life._





No, they are giving me bad gifts because they don't bother to take the time to get what I told them I would like. That is the insulting part. I tell them what I would like, and they ignore me, deciding I would be better off with something else. I'm sorry, but I know what I like more than anyone else does.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> If you gave out of the goodness of your heart, you would give people things that they actually want. Not things you decided they should want.




If parents thought like you for the whole time christmas has been celebrated, hordes of kids would be running around with no socks, underwear, coats, or mittens, freezing to death quite happily with their desired little toys of the moment.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> And sometimes people try to get gifts not from alist.




And I have told them time and again - get me something on the list. And they ignored me.



> _Perhaps they can't find the items, perhaps they forgot the list or lost it._





I have directed people to where the items could be found. And they ignored me.



> _What is rude is the way you are doing it and the sounds of the words._





I have tried to be polite and subtle about this in the past. Didn't work.



> _Getting someone a gift that they might not like that is not off their list is not rude in any sense of the word._





Yes, it is. It is ignoring their wishes and substituting your own. If you aren't going to get me a gift that I actually want, I would prefer no gift. If you aren't going to think about what I want long enough to get me something that I told you I wanted, don't bother.


----------



## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No, they are giving me bad gifts because they don't bother to take the time to get what I told them I would like. That is the insulting part. I tell them what I would like, and they ignore me, deciding I would be better off with something else. I'm sorry, but I know what I like more than anyone else does.




Perhaps this year you should mail out letters to everyone saying that you are not participating in Christmas anymore and they should just not buy you anything this year.  That way you know you are not going to be insulted by your unloving lazy family.


----------



## PirateMary (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven, you are just a ray of sunshine if ever there was one.  I can see your point on not getting what you want for gifts, but to complain about that shows nothing but unappreciative selfishness.  Quite frankly, you don't deserve any gifts, on your list or not.


----------



## Morrus (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I would prefer to get no gift rather than a gift in which the giver put that little thought.




I must say that anyone who sent me that email would absolutely get no gift.  I find it plain rude.  The sentiment I can empathise with, but the delivery....


----------



## Lorgrom (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> If parents thought like you for the whole time christmas has been celebrated, hordes of kids would be running around with no socks, underwear, coats, or mittens, freezing to death quite happily with their desired little toys of the moment.




I grew-up in a household where underwear, coats, mittens, etc were the christmas gifts. Let me tell you now that I am an adult. Getting kids that kind of stuff (things that should be gotten all year long, just as food on the table and schooling) is worse on them, then being truthful and telling them you couldn't afford anything.

Nothing kills the holiday spirit quicker then only being able to get what you HAVE TO HAVE to survive. Then getting what you WANT to be happy.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> If parents thought like you for the whole time christmas has been celebrated, hordes of kids would be running around with no socks, underwear, coats, or mittens, freezing to death quite happily with their desired little toys of the moment.




Socks, underwear and the like are not good Christmas gifts. Sometimes a coat or gloves might be, if the recipient those things. I never want clothes for Christmas. I can buy clothes myself, thank you.

(P.S. I never buy my children clothes for Christmas, and won't unless they ask for them. They get clothes because they are my children, not because I'm giving them a gift).


----------



## was (Dec 6, 2005)

We've switched most of our purchases to gift cards.


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## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> So, a $14 CD is a "fairly expensive gift". In that case, I'd hope you would cross me off your list. You are clearly too poor to afford to give gifts to begin with.



yes, $14 can be expensive.

does it mean people shouldn't give gifts if they don't have $14 for each person on their list?

no. it doesn't.

diaglo "who made many gifts, worked multiple jobs, and still got people gifts" Ooi

edit: there are numerous stories about this


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No, you didn't think about them. If you had, you would have gotten them something on their list.



Do I look like Santa Claus to you? Are you saying I'm fat? That I'm a home invasion specialist? That I hang out with midgets and call them elves?

Thinking about them involves: Spending money on them. Fighting holiday crowds to get them something. To box it up and drive to UPS to send it.

Yeah, I thought about them. It goes beyond your selfish "Gimme what *I* want, or I'll be ungrateful!" but rather into: "I thought you might like this, and might not choose to spend your money on it."

It's a gift. When choosing gifts, you chose something they wouldn't buy for themselves, not something they want but are too cheap to buy.


> Instead, you got them soemthing you wanted them to have, and not something they actually wanted.



Maybe I can't afford what's on thier list? Maybe I think asking for movies and DVD's is trite and greedy. Maybe I thought you'd like a mug from Austria. Maybe I thought that 2 Pre-War Iraqi bills that I picked up from the wreckage of a building was something you'd find interesting. Maybe I thought that having a custom made fountian pen was something you'd never buy for yourself, but would look good on your desk.

I thought about you, and bought something I thought you'd like, not acted like you were 5 years old with a list to Santa.


> The selfish individual in this scenario is you.



Yeah, look how selfish I am. I spent part of my hard earned money, I spent the time and effort to get the object, to wrap it myself, to add a card, to drive it down to UPS.

You spent the time bitching and whining that it wasn't something you wanted.



> [/i]
> 
> So, a $14 CD is a "fairly expensive gift". In that case, I'd hope you would cross me off your list. You are clearly too poor to afford to give gifts to begin with.
> 
> [/i]



Nice shot. Backpeddle faster.



			
				Gimme gimme gimme! said:
			
		

> Babylon 5: The Movie Collection $47.99
> Crusade: The Complete Series $47.99
> Farscape: The Complete Second Season $119.99 (these are cheaper at Costco.com)
> Farscape: The Complete Third Season $119.99 (these are cheaper at Costco.com)
> Farscape: The Complete Fourth Season $119.99



Yeah, $14. That's all you want, is cheap $14 CD's.

No, you have a select list, and by GOD, people better get it for you, or you'll declare them selfish.

Yeah, those ARE expensive. A $14 CD that you DEMANDED would be the ONLY gift you got, and I'm serious, if you were one of my relatives, I'd get your card, and that's it.

That represents 2 hours of work at minimum wage. TWO HOURS. Whose the selfish one now?

"If I can't have what I want, then I want nothing!"

Yeah, I'm poor, what about it? How about you appreciate what you have and what gifts you get for a change?



> My desk is covered with papers and office supplies. My desk has always been that way. Placing that pen on my desk is tantamount to losing it. And the fact that I know I will lose the pen is why I do not want it.



Ask for a maid to clear your desk.



> If you gave out of the goodness of your heart, you would give people things that they actually want. Not things you decided they should want.



You know, I thought the Grinch was bad.

Merry Feast of the Pig. Enjoy your holiday.

It's nice to know that the person recieving the gift should decide what they get.


----------



## Desdichado (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Socks, underwear and the like are not good Christmas gifts. Sometimes a coat or gloves might be, if the recipient those things. I never want clothes for Christmas. I can buy clothes myself, thank you.



Have you ever considered that the ph4t l00t you can haul in may not be the point of Christmas?


----------



## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Socks, underwear and the like are not good Christmas gifts. Sometimes a coat or gloves might be, if the recipient those things. I never want clothes for Christmas. I can buy clothes myself, thank you.




Can't you buy the other things as well??


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> It's at this point that I think Storm Raven is getting too snitty. Seeing a particular movie on the list and getting something similar is not buying way off list and should be accepted with grace (even if you do, ultimately, decide to return it). When it comes to lists, people often think, "Oh, someone will probably get him that but this is close and might come as a nice surprise," and that IS reasonably thoughtful.




You see, the thing is, I have told them that this is unlikely to work for me. I am very specific in my tastes. I know this, and I make sure to tell people who are intent on getting me gifts this fact. I suggest that they stick to the list. But they ignore me. The only thing I can suppose that they think that that I can't _possibly_ not like _Attack of the Clones_ if I like _Empire Strikes Back_. Or that I have to like _Tommy Boy_ because I like movies.


----------



## devilbat (Dec 6, 2005)

If I received an email like that from someone I spent my time and money on, I'd make a point of finding the most useless gift I could, and send it to them.  "What, you didn't want a previously viewed copy of dumb and dumberer?, Cool, next year I'll go with the moose call, I had picked out first." 

Knowing the level of frustration I was creating would be worth it all, and it would make me jolly at Christmas.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Have you ever considered that the ph4t l00t you can haul in may not be the point of Christmas?




Quick edit out the rolleyes before the mods get you...(just kidding Henry - I really couldn't resist - really)...


----------



## fett527 (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You see, the thing is, I have told them that this is unlikely to work for me. I am very specific in my tastes. I know this, and I make sure to tell people who are intent on getting me gifts this fact. I suggest that they stick to the list. But they ignore me. The only thing I can suppose that they think that that I can't _possibly_ not like _Attack of the Clones_ if I like _Empire Strikes Back_. Or that I have to like _Tommy Boy_ because I like movies.



Are you actually listening to anyone or just trying to repeat yourself over and over?  You know what I want for this Christmas?  Absolutely nothing except to watch my 19 month old son's face light up as he opens his presents and eats Christmas cookies.  I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT WHAT I GET I JUST WANT MY SON TO BE HAPPY !!!!!!!!!!!!

Get it?  It's not about you.


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

_And the Grinch, with his Grinch-feet ice cold in the snow, stood puzzling and puzzling, how could it be so? 
It came without ribbons. It came without tags. 
It came without packages, boxes or bags. 

And he puzzled and puzzled 'till his puzzler was sore. 
Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before. 
What if Christmas, he thought, doesn't come from a store. 
What if Christmas, perhaps, means a little bit more._

- Dr. Suess


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## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

You've made it clear the phrase "I want" is central to your being, but try going through christmas without it, and see the gifts as the people giving them to you see them rather than through your jaded little reality filter.  You might actually surprise yourself and enjoy it.  Lord knows that if what you're projecting here is indicative of the real you, your family will certainly appreciate the change.


----------



## fiddy (Dec 6, 2005)

While I think SR could perhaps phrase his statement to his family a bit more gently, I agree with his basic point.

Of course I generally only spend maybe a week or two per year around my immediate family (mostly at Christmas), so I don't necessarily know what latest things they are interested in (or already have) without a list.

Ah well... back to lurking...


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Thinking about them involves: Spending money on them. Fighting holiday crowds to get them something. To box it up and drive to UPS to send it.




No, that's being a mail order deliveryman. Thinking about them means getting them what they _actually want_.



> _It's a gift. When choosing gifts, you chose something they wouldn't buy for themselves, not something they want but are too cheap to buy._





In which case I would likely return it and get something I actually _wanted_. Not what you thought I would want.



> _Maybe I can't afford what's on thier list? Maybe I think asking for movies and DVD's is trite and greedy. Maybe I thought you'd like a mug from Austria. Maybe I thought that 2 Pre-War Iraqi bills that I picked up from the wreckage of a building was something you'd find interesting. Maybe I thought that having a custom made fountian pen was something you'd never buy for yourself, but would look good on your desk._





No, I would not want any of those things. In point of fact, I have previously (before they bought the gift) said to the people who got me the pen that I do not now, and never will want a pen.



> _Yeah, look how selfish I am. I spent part of my hard earned money, I spent the time and effort to get the object, to wrap it myself, to add a card, to drive it down to UPS._





And wasted your money and effort on something I probably do not want. Now, I'm supposed to pretend I'm happy about it to make you happy. Sorry, I'm not going to do that. Maybe if I tell you I would like something from list next time, you would get me something from my list.



> _Yeah, $14. That's all you want, is cheap $14 CD's._





You mean like these items that were _also_ on the list that you didn't bother to copy?



> _Serenity (Widescreen Edition)_ $16.98
> Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars[/i] $13.99
> _Firefly: Original Television Soundtrack_ $13.49
> _Farscape: Music from the Original Soundtrack_ $13.98
> ...




To tell the truth, I don't ever expect that I will get everything on my list. Or even the most expensive thing I list. I know the price ranges of the prople in my family, and make a list that encompasses those price ranges. Some people will buy on the low end. Some on the high end. Perhaps it would make you feel better know that the pen in question cost more than anything on my list.



> _Yeah, those ARE expensive. A $14 CD that you DEMANDED would be the ONLY gift you got, and I'm serious, if you were one of my relatives, I'd get your card, and that's it.
> 
> That represents 2 hours of work at minimum wage. TWO HOURS. Whose the selfish one now?_





None of my relatives work for minimum wage. I know this. I know the price ranges they buy gifts in. My list is constructed accordingly.



> _It's nice to know that the person recieving the gift should decide what they get._





If you actually cared about them, then yes, you would get them what they want.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> You've made it clear the phrase "I want" is central to your being, but try going through christmas without it, and see the gifts as the people giving them to you see them rather than through your jaded little reality filter.  You might actually surprise yourself and enjoy it.  Lord knows that if what you're projecting here is indicative of the real you, your family will certainly appreciate the change.



 Quoted for truth.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Have you ever considered that the ph4t l00t you can haul in may not be the point of Christmas?




Yes. That is why I tell people not to get any gift if they aren't going to get me something I want. Don't get me a gift I don't want - it wastes your time and effort, and won't make me happy. No enjoyment will be generated by the process, so if you are going to do that, then just don't.


----------



## francisca (Dec 6, 2005)

SR, I'm sure you'll get what you deserve for X-mas, a lump of something.  I don't think it will be coal, however.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> You've made it clear the phrase "I want" is central to your being, but try going through christmas without it, and see the gifts as the people giving them to you see them rather than through your jaded little reality filter.




You mean I should see the gifts as stuff that caught their eye when they were doing their real shopping and stuffed in their cart as an afterthought? Make no mistake about it, when someone buys you _The Waterboy_ after you hinted that you would like the _Fellowship of the Ring_ soundtrack, that's exactly how much thought went into the gift.


----------



## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> You've made it clear the phrase "I want" is central to your being, but try going through christmas without it, and see the gifts as the people giving them to you see them rather than through your jaded little reality filter.  You might actually surprise yourself and enjoy it.  Lord knows that if what you're projecting here is indicative of the real you, your family will certainly appreciate the change.



you need to add rose coloured in there somewhere. a phrase SR uses often when trying to type on RPG message boards where others still play older games.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> There are thousands of people who will receive nothing more this Christmas than barely enough food to get by, if that. There are thousands of kids who have no one to spend Christmas with and will not get gifts at all. I'm sorry you got an expensive pen from parents who obviously love you. You certainly are a victim of the season.




Yeah, yeah. Children are starving in Africa. I feel bad about it. I've even lived with it (lived in Africa for nine years and did what I could). But the blunt fact of the matter is that has no bearing whatsoever on the gift-giving proclivities of my family.


----------



## billd91 (Dec 6, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> diaglo "who made many gifts, worked multiple jobs, and still got people gifts" Ooi
> 
> edit: there are numerous stories about this




How many of them on criminal rap sheets?


----------



## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You mean I should see the gifts as stuff that caught their eye when they were doing their real shopping and stuffed in their cart as an afterthought? Make no mistake about it, when someone buys you _The Waterboy_ after you hinted that you would like the _Fellowship of the Ring_ soundtrack, that's exactly how much thought went into the gift.




How do you know this?  You are just assumning that since they bought you something you don't want that they spent little time thinking on it.  

Perhaps this year you should buy the gifts you want and just bill your relatives?  That sounds like it might be the perfect way to handle this.  Then you could wrap the gifts and be all happy when you open them.  You wouldn't have to be rude to people by being disappointing and uncaring and not giving a darn what other think,


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You mean I should see the gifts as stuff that caught their eye when they were doing their real shopping and stuffed in their cart as an afterthought? Make no mistake about it, when someone buys you _The Waterboy_ after you hinted that you would like the _Fellowship of the Ring_ soundtrack, that's exactly how much thought went into the gift.




Or maybe they really like The Waterboy, and hoped you might pull the stick out and get a laugh out of it too?

No, you're right - it must have been meant to offend.  Silly me.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> you need to add rose coloured in there somewhere. a phrase SR uses often when trying to type on RPG message boards where others still play older games.




Soon as I see anything remotely rose-coloured in the posts, I'll give it some thought.


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Yeah, yeah. Children are starving in Africa. I feel bad about it. I've even lived with it (lived in Africa for nine years and did what I could). But the blunt fact of the matter is that has no bearing whatsoever on the gift-giving proclivities of my family.




You're right, it doesn't. It has everything to do with your perspective on Christmas. You feel Christmas should be a time where _you_ deserve to get exactly what _you_ want. If it's not exactly what you want, you feel that absolutely no thought went into it and, therefore, it's crap.

Christmas is not supposed to be about that. Christmas is about family and counting your blessings. It's about being thankful for all that you have and realizing that just because you didn't get what you want, it does not mean that the givers didn't care about you. If you don't want it, then give it to charity, as you do, and let that be it. Be thankful you even have a family and kiss your kids goodnight being thankful that they live in a warm house with loving parents.


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Perhaps this year you should buy the gifts you want and just bill your relatives?  That sounds like it might be the perfect way to handle this.  Then you could wrap the gifts and be all happy when you open them.  You wouldn't have to be rude to people by being disappointing and uncaring and not giving a darn what other think,




Time wasted opening gifts I don't like = Billable Hours? It's so crazy it just might work!


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Perhaps this year you should mail out letters to everyone saying that you are not participating in Christmas anymore and they should just not buy you anything this year.  That way you know you are not going to be insulted by your unloving lazy family.




That would be fine by me. I would rather get no gifts than get gifts given that clearly have limited thought behind them. I would rather not have to feign happiness that I got a doorstop hedgehog thing that got given away the next day. Give me nothing and I'll be a happy man.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No, that's being a mail order deliveryman. Thinking about them means getting them what they _actually want_.



You have a strange idea of what "thinking of someone" means. You seem to think that it all revolves around you, that you should get what YOU want.

You have no clue what gifts and giving are really about, and you know what, you might want to add something to that list of yours...

_EDIT: Ralts, that's a bit too far. -Henry_

You come across as a spoiled, soulless, joyless person that Christmas only exists for you to get stuff you haven't gotten around to purchasing yourself.

I shudder to think about how you go about picking Christmas gifts.


> In which case I would likely return it and get something I actually _wanted_. Not what you thought I would want.



Boy, you're about ungrateful and unfeeling. You do know what Christmas is about, don't you? It's like you're custom made for Marley to visit you with a billy club.



> No, I would not want any of those things. In point of fact, I have previously (before they bought the gift) said to the people who got me the pen that I do not now, and never will want a pen.



You don't get it, do you? You don't even get what the pen symbolizes, or what it means?

Your a professional, a lawyer, and obviously successful since you aren't posting here from a cardboard box.

Look up the signifigance of a pen. Seems to me that your parents were thoughtful. You're just shallow and ungrateful.



> And wasted your money and effort on something I probably do not want.



Me, me, me, me!

You honestly have no joy in your life, do you?



> Now, I'm supposed to pretend I'm happy about it to make you happy. Sorry, I'm not going to do that. Maybe if I tell you I would like something from list next time, you would get me something from my list.



Or I could get you JACK! NOTHING! NADA!

Merry Feast of the Pig!



> You mean like these items that were _also_ on the list that you didn't bother to copy?



Yeah, and I'm willing to bet you'd piss and moan about those too. Lamenting they didn't get you the more expensive things, or only purchased one of them for you.



> To tell the truth, I don't ever expect that I will get everything on my list. Or even the most expensive thing I list. I know the price ranges of the prople in my family, and make a list that encompasses those price ranges. Some people will buy on the low end. Some on the high end. Perhaps it would make you feel better know that the pen in question cost more than anything on my list.



You really don't get what the pen was about, do you?

Actually, it doesn't. It just shows me further that you have no clue what Christmas is about, the symbolism involved in the pen, or the care and thought your parents put into the gift.

Man, for Christmas you should sit and watch all those little kids shows.



> None of my relatives work for minimum wage. I know this. I know the price ranges they buy gifts in. My list is constructed accordingly.



That's not the point. The point is: Either get you what you want, or you'll be an ungrateful wretch.

Good for your relatives, but you don't get it, do you? You're coming across as a poor spoiled rich boy who didn't get a diamond studded flying pony for Christmas, so now you're going to throw a fit.



> If you actually cared about them, then yes, you would get them what they want.



Your definition of caring is fundementally incorrect.

Caring about someone isn't giving them what they want.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

SR, have you asked your family what their motivations are?  Here on this board, you have painted a bad picture of their motivations as they have purposely ignored your requests and gotten you bad gifts.  Is there a chance that they have one of the following opinions:

1. They realize that you want these recreational gifts, but think that the pen is more practical.

2. They realize that you have a list, but want to give you something from their heart, not yours.

3. They forgot...

Find out what their motivation is.


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Give me nothing and I'll be a happy man.




Send out that e-mail and you'll be jollier than Santa Claus from now on.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> That would be fine by me. I would rather get no gifts than get gifts given that clearly have limited thought behind them. I would rather not have to feign happiness that I got a doorstop hedgehog thing that got given away the next day. Give me nothing and I'll be a happy man.



Wow. Just wow.

I imagine your family would just be astounded by your display of humanity, caring, and thoughtfullness behind this statement.

I'm sure they'd be ecstatic to make you happy.


----------



## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> That would be fine by me. I would rather get no gifts than get gifts given that clearly have limited thought behind them. I would rather not have to feign happiness that I got a doorstop hedgehog thing that got given away the next day. Give me nothing and I'll be a happy man.




THen do this.  Save your family the trouble, save yourself the headache, and then you can quit complaining about it to strangers who think you are rude.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Yeah, yeah. Children are starving in Africa. I feel bad about it. I've even lived with it (lived in Africa for nine years and did what I could).



I call BS. Living there and working there for 9 years would make you a bit more appreciative of things. Either you were in the elitist brigade, or you are yanking our chain.


> But the blunt fact of the matter is that has no bearing whatsoever on the gift-giving proclivities of my family.



It's called:

Be grateful for what you have, there are those that have nothing.


----------



## billd91 (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You see, the thing is, I have told them that this is unlikely to work for me. I am very specific in my tastes. I know this, and I make sure to tell people who are intent on getting me gifts this fact. I suggest that they stick to the list. But they ignore me. The only thing I can suppose that they think that that I can't _possibly_ not like _Attack of the Clones_ if I like _Empire Strikes Back_. Or that I have to like _Tommy Boy_ because I like movies.




At this point, I would have to say you need to lighten up. Maybe you should be asking why your family ignores your wishes. Did they deliberately tune you out?


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> Or maybe they really like The Waterboy, and hoped you might pull the stick out and get a laugh out of it too?




You see, I picked _The Waterboy_ because it was an actual gift I received. I had previously explicitly told the giver (who is an Adam Sandler fan) that I hate Adam Sandler. I don't find him funny. I didn't find him funny in Saturday Night Live, and didn't find him funny in any of the snippets of his movies that I have seen. This explanation came in other context (when we are deciding what movies to watch when we get together, he always suggests some Adam Sandler movie, and I point out, again, that I don't like Adam Sandler and never did). But yet, they give me this as a gift. How would someone putting any amount of thought into the gift every think that giving this to me would be something I would want?


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You see, I picked _The Waterboy_ because it was an actual gift I received. I had previously explicitly told the giver (who is an Adam Sandler fan) that I hate Adam Sandler. I don't find him funny. I didn't find him funny in Saturday Night Live, and didn't find him funny in any of the snippets of his movies that I have seen. This explanation came in other context (when we are deciding what movies to watch when we get together, he always suggests some Adam Sandler movie, and I point out, again, that I don't like Adam Sandler and never did). But yet, they give me this as a gift. How would someone putting any amount of thought into the gift every think that giving this to me would be something I would want?




A) They didn't remember or B) they think of you as much as we do.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I call BS. Living there and working there for 9 years would make you a bit more appreciative of things.




Two years in Tanzania, two years in Zaire (when Mobutu was still alive), three years in Nigeria (two coups during my time there, both bloodless), and two years in Togo (one attempted coup, not bloodless). The fact that there are destitute people out there has no bearing on what my family members can afford, or what kind of lifestyle we lead.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You see, I picked _The Waterboy_ because it was an actual gift I received. I had previously explicitly told the giver (who is an Adam Sandler fan) that I hate Adam Sandler. I don't find him funny. I didn't find him funny in Saturday Night Live, and didn't find him funny in any of the snippets of his movies that I have seen. This explanation came in other context (when we are deciding what movies to watch when we get together, he always suggests some Adam Sandler movie, and I point out, again, that I don't like Adam Sandler and never did). But yet, they give me this as a gift. How would someone putting any amount of thought into the gift every think that giving this to me would be something I would want?




Because they find The Waterboy the funniest of Adan Sandler's movies and though it would be just the thing to turn you on to something you might like and would not otherwise try given your rigid and unbending approach to life, and thus a good time they could share with you?

No, must have been unthoughtful and chosen to offend, my bad.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You see, I picked _The Waterboy_ because it was an actual gift I received. I had previously explicitly told the giver (who is an Adam Sandler fan) that I hate Adam Sandler. I don't find him funny. I didn't find him funny in Saturday Night Live, and didn't find him funny in any of the snippets of his movies that I have seen. This explanation came in other context (when we are deciding what movies to watch when we get together, he always suggests some Adam Sandler movie, and I point out, again, that I don't like Adam Sandler and never did). But yet, they give me this as a gift. How would someone putting any amount of thought into the gift every think that giving this to me would be something I would want?



HAH! You really don't get it, do you?  Man.

OK, let me explain it.

Your friend actually did put some thought into your gift. He chose one of more highly rated Adam Sandler movies, and purchased for you in hopes that you might watch it and enjoy it, or at least give you some common ground to understand him a bit.

It's called: "Sharing a bit of your life with someone."

You really are clueless, aren't you?


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> A) They didn't remember or B) they think of you as much as we do.





...or C) they think that maybe if you watched this particular movie that you may like it (and since they paid for it, you are out nothing)...

EDIT: Obviously my post comes in a bit late with this thought...I must brush up on my reply-fu


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> 1. They realize that you want these recreational gifts, but think that the pen is more practical.




There is nothing "practical" about a pen that costs more than a hundred dollars.



> _2. They realize that you have a list, but want to give you something from their heart, not yours._





I don't want what they think I should want. If they want to give me something from their heart, they should get me something I actually want.



> _3. They forgot..._




Unlikely. They asked my wife for suggestions within the last two weeks, which she provided (I give my wife suggestions every year for her to pass on if people ask her).


----------



## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> How many of them on criminal rap sheets?




what you didn't like the shiv i gave you last year?

i made it myself. i know i didn't gift wrap it. but still it was given with you in mind. i meant it for.. i mean from the heart.

p.s. can i have it back when you get out of the sick ward? i need to finish the job.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Two years in Tanzania, two years in Zaire (when Mobutu was still alive), three years in Nigeria (two coups during my time there, both bloodless), and two years in Togo (one attempted coup, not bloodless). The fact that there are destitute people out there has no bearing on what my family members can afford, or what kind of lifestyle we lead.



 Um...empathy maybe?


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> HAH! You really don't get it, do you?  Man.
> 
> OK, let me explain it.
> 
> ...




No. It is called being rude. You see, he chose a gift he would want to get, and assumed that since he would like it I should. I have seen chunks of _The Waterboy_ and found it unfunny. He knows this. He also knows what I actually like, and ignored that in favor of a gift that would be great for him. That's the rude part. He got a gift for himself, disguised as a gift for me.

I returned the movie, unopened and exchanged it for something I actually wanted.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Two years in Tanzania, two years in Zaire (when Mobutu was still alive), three years in Nigeria (two coups during my time there, both bloodless), and two years in Togo (one attempted coup, not bloodless). The fact that there are destitute people out there has no bearing on *what my family members can afford*, or what kind of lifestyle we lead.



And you took nothing back with you, did you?

Sadly, you missed out on something that those people have, and that's an appreciation for gifts, a sense of wonder at holidays, and appreciation for thoughtfullness.

Notice my emphasis.

That seems to be your point, this whole time.

They have money, they should get me what I want.

You can say what you want about your time in Africa, but if you can't even understand basic gratitude, then you're kind of... well... Poor.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> There is nothing "practical" about a pen that costs more than a hundred dollars.




Not even if it sits impressively upon your desk, and creates a good impression on potential clients who see your uber pen and think "Wow, he must be super successful to be able to afford an expensive pen like that - I ought to hire him!"?

No, of course not.  Presenting an image to potential clients isn't valuable at all.


----------



## billd91 (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> HAH! You really don't get it, do you?  Man.
> 
> OK, let me explain it.
> 
> ...




Or he's doing it to needle SR and his unyielding ways. Again, that takes thought too. It means he loves you enough to drive you crazy. 

Reminds me of how two firends of mine keep passing an ancient box of Dots candies back and forth from birthday to birthday. Neither of them wants it, they just do it to drive the other one nuts.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

devilbat said:
			
		

> If I received an email like that from someone I spent my time and money on, I'd make a point of finding the most useless gift I could, and send it to them.  "What, you didn't want a previously viewed copy of dumb and dumberer?, Cool, next year I'll go with the moose call, I had picked out first."




And I'd just throw your gifts in the trash. If you are going to get me crap, expect it to be treated like crap.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> There is nothing "practical" about a pen that costs more than a hundred dollars.
> 
> [/i]
> 
> ...




ummm....wow....

I guess that I will have to bow out of this one, as I have said as much as I can without being rude.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> something I actually wanted.




Bzzt.  I thought we were going to try to avoid this?  You're not doing very well at this exercise.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> Not even if it sits impressively upon your desk, and creates a good impression on potential clients who see your uber pen and think "Wow, he must be super successful to be able to afford an expensive pen like that - I ought to hire him!"?
> 
> No, of course not.  Presenting an image to potential clients isn't valuable at all.




I work for the government. I have no clients as such. An expensive pen is merely a pricey bauble. The $2 paperweight I got from my son last year was a better gift, because he didn't spend a ton of money on it, and it is useful.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No. It is called being rude. You see, he chose a gift he would want to get, and assumed that since he would like it I should.



I guess he thought that maybe, as his friend, you had something in common.


> I have seen chunks of _The Waterboy_ and found it unfunny. He knows this. He also knows what I actually like, and ignored that in favor of a gift that would be great for him. That's the rude part. He got a gift for himself, disguised as a gift for me.



Yeah, I'm sure you gave it to him back.

Wait for it...



> I returned the movie, unopened and exchanged it for something I actually wanted.



Ahhh...

Yup, he got himself a gift disguised as a gift for you.

Man, I really do for sorry for you. I felt really bad that I couldn't afford all the cool stuff for my kids this year, but now...

I feel better. They'll at least appreciate what they get.


----------



## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No. It is called being rude. You see, he chose a gift he would want to get, and assumed that since he would like it I should. I have seen chunks of _The Waterboy_ and found it unfunny. He knows this. He also knows what I actually like, and ignored that in favor of a gift that would be great for him. That's the rude part. He got a gift for himself, disguised as a gift for me.




Do you guys live together?  Would he have been able to watch it all the time because he doesn't owqn a copy?  Did you read his mind or are you just guessing?  You seem to assume the worst motives in your friends and family, why is that?


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> Or he's doing it to needle SR and his unyielding ways. Again, that takes thought too. It means he loves you enough to drive you crazy.
> 
> Reminds me of how two firends of mine keep passing an ancient box of Dots candies back and forth from birthday to birthday. Neither of them wants it, they just do it to drive the other one nuts.



You know my brother and I?

Seriously, we've been giving the same 2 gifts back and forth for 12 years. Whoever dies first gets them put in thier coffin!


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I work for the government. I have no clients as such. An expensive pen is merely a pricey bauble. The $2 paperweight I got from my son last year was a better gift, because he didn't spend a ton of money on it, and it is useful.



Agent K called...

He wants his human empathy back.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> And you took nothing back with you, did you?
> 
> Sadly, you missed out on something that those people have, and that's an appreciation for gifts, a sense of wonder at holidays, and appreciation for thoughtfullness.




You'd think they would feel that way. But the majority don't. Most resent you because they need your help and hate you for trying. Many accuse you of thrying the impose Christian beliefs upon them, because you are an evil Western oppressor, while others try to steal your watch.


----------



## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You'd think they would feel that way. But the majority don't. Most resent you because they need your help and hate you for trying. Many accuse you of thrying the impose Christian beliefs upon them, because you are an evil Western oppressor, while others try to steal your watch.




Wow, I bet your fun at parties!!


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You'd think they would feel that way. But the majority don't. Most resent you because they need your help and hate you for trying. Many accuse you of thrying the impose Christian beliefs upon them, because you are an evil Western oppressor, while others try to steal your watch.



Huh, my experiences were different.

I think I can pinpoint where you were and what you were doing.

I think you really need to do some soul searching, look inward at yourself, then out at your world, then do some more soul searching.

You have less understanding of Christmas than the focus of a children's special, and to me, that's tragic.


----------



## PirateMary (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And I'd just throw your gifts in the trash. If you are going to get me crap, expect it to be treated like crap.



Have you voiced all of your reasonings stated in this thread to your family(other than your wife)?  I mean, if you would just take all your reasonings here, put it in your revised edition of the "What you're gonna get me for Christmas, or die" list, and I'm sure you would be surprised by your results.  If they only knew how adament(sp?) you were about this, I'm sure they would oblige.


----------



## billd91 (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> You know my brother and I?
> 
> Seriously, we've been giving the same 2 gifts back and forth for 12 years. Whoever dies first gets them put in thier coffin!




Sounds like a bit of Pyrrhic victory if you ask me. And how are you going to verify that you're the one getting the gift? You're already dead! Sounds like an excellent opportunity for a last prank.


----------



## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Wow, I bet your fun at parties!!



he's fun on message boards. i mess with him all the time.


----------



## spatha (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No. It is called being rude. You see, he chose a gift he would want to get, and assumed that since he would like it I should. I have seen chunks of _The Waterboy_ and found it unfunny. He knows this. He also knows what I actually like, and ignored that in favor of a gift that would be great for him. That's the rude part. He got a gift for himself, disguised as a gift for me.
> 
> I returned the movie, unopened and exchanged it for something I actually wanted.



WOW that is an interesting perspective. Someone bought you a gift maybe hoping you might take the time to watch and maybe enjoy it. But you view it as some conspiracy. Better watch the skys I'm sure the black helicopters are coming for you next.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You'd think they would feel that way. But the majority don't. Most resent you because they need your help and hate you for trying. Many accuse you of thrying the impose Christian beliefs upon them, because you are an evil Western oppressor, while others try to steal your watch.



 Wow.  Simply wow.  Just because you're miserable and angry doesn't mean that everyone else around you is.  Many people practice a little thing called common courtesy and exhibit basic human decency.  Seriously, I feel very, very sorry for you.  I hope that you find the true spirit of the holidays isn't about what you get.  Sadly, I don't think there's much hope of that happening.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I guess he thought that maybe, as his friend, you had something in common.




We do have things in common. But not that. He knows that.



> _Yup, he got himself a gift disguised as a gift for you._





He pretty much expected that if I didn't want it, I would give it to him.

Look, for all of the people screaming about how the message was presented, and how it is blunt (or rude) and how unappreciative I am and so on, get the context here.

I have been getting lousy gifts for more than a decade. At first, I didn't mind because I didn't give out hints, or lists or anything like that. People got me what they thought I would like, and almost always whiffed. I pretended to be appreciative and kept much of the stuff because I felt bad returning it.

But I decided that if I was ever going to get stuff that wasn't just useless clutter, I would have to let people know what I would like. I tried subtle hints and polite suggestions. I was ignored. I tried more explicit suggestions, and was ignored. I gave out a list, and was ignored. I said I would really like things on my list and not other stuff, and was ignored. I pointed out that I don't care for surprises, and don't really get any particular enjoyment out of opening an "unknown" gift. Not only was I ignored, I have gotten lots of gifts that not only don't I really want, but I would _never_ want.

This is a last resort. I have tried all the polite and nice ways of getting this message out. I can't figure out any way to get my point out other than hitting them over the head with a clue-by-four.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> Sounds like a bit of Pyrrhic victory if you ask me. And how are you going to verify that you're the one getting the gift? You're already dead! Sounds like an excellent opportunity for a last prank.



Sounds like you know my brother and I.

The first to die gets stuck with the gifts.

One is a soundtrack of Flashdance, still in the wrapper, that was supposed to go to our sister.

The other is possibly the world's ugliest chia-pet. I'll bet the box is full of mold.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> ...You have less understanding of Christmas than the focus of a children's special, and to me, that's tragic...




Well, I guess I'll get one jab in before I leave...

They actually had plans to star SR in the live action Grinch movie, but when he kicked the Grinch in the nads and gouged out his eyes for taking his presents they had second thoughts.  The deciding factor was when he made little Cindy Lou Who (who was no more than two) cry for giving him a lovely pottery dish for a gift.


----------



## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> he's fun on message boards. i mess with him all the time.





He's not really that fun.  He's a skipping record.  He just syas the same things over and over for 4 straight pages.  He has no good points and clearly doesn't understand human nature or the season of Christmas.  I'm thinking his wife might one day become a saint though......


----------



## freebfrost (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> "It's the thought that counts" is an empty phrase that people who actually didn't put any thought into their gifts like to resort to to make themselves feel better about the fact that they didn't bother to buy the recipient something they actually wanted. I told you what you wanted - you got me something else. That's not thoughtful. That's rude.
> 
> I would prefer to get no gift rather than a gift in which the giver put that little thought.



I have to side with Storm Raven here.  My sister is notorious for doing this - for years she would go shopping and buy things that *she* liked and sent them to me as gifts.  I have received cheap sweatshirts emblazoned with hunting scenes (I'm not a hunter), a plastic toiletry travel bag (since I was travelling for work at this time which implied that already HAD one - a nice one in fact), books on topics that I have no interest in (but that she does), etc.

I appreciate _thoughtful_ gifts, but sometimes you have to tell the unthoughtful people to not even bother...


----------



## EricNoah (Dec 6, 2005)

I agree that it's depressing to get "bad gifts" from people who supposedly know you, especially if it happens year in and year out.  It's all part of the "game" of Christmas, (the "I know exactly what to get you" game), which I also don't enjoy playing.  But I personally wouldn't fire off a letter like the one in the original post.  There's got to be a more tactful way of saying it.  I'm one of those guys who never returns a gift even if I'll never use it.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Wow, I bet your fun at parties!!




Many people think that the poor starving masses of the third world are appreciative of help when people try to give it. But the blunt truth is that many are not. Many are angry because of their own helplessness, and the fact that you represent concrete evidence of their helplessness. Many are not only not appreciative, but downright hostile because of this. It insults their strength as a person to accept aid from you, especially since you come from a culture that they see as a historical oppressor. People who do relief work in third world countries expecting to feel gratitude and appreciation are often sorely disappointed. You have to do the work for its own sake, not for any appreciation those you help will give you. If that comes, it is a bonus.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I have been getting lousy gifts for more than a decade.



Waaaah. Get over yourself. We all get lousy gifts, and have probably given them.

The only reason BRUT by Fabrege is still in business is because kids think that their father's will like it. It sits in the drawer till they become teenagers and steal it.



> At first, I didn't mind because I didn't give out hints, or lists or anything like that. People got me what they thought I would like, and almost always whiffed. I pretended to be appreciative and kept much of the stuff because I felt bad returning it.



Wow, see, that's what the rest of humanity does.



> But I decided that if I was ever going to get stuff that wasn't just useless clutter, I would have to let people know what I would like. I tried subtle hints and polite suggestions. I was ignored. I tried more explicit suggestions, and was ignored. I gave out a list, and was ignored. I said I would really like things on my list and not other stuff, and was ignored. I pointed out that I don't care for surprises, and don't really get any particular enjoyment out of opening an "unknown" gift. Not only was I ignored, I have gotten lots of gifts that not only don't I really want, but I would _never_ want.
> 
> This is a last resort. I have tried all the polite and nice ways of getting this message out. I can't figure out any way to get my point out other than hitting them over the head with a clue-by-four.



Wow. Just... Wow.

Man, look, Christmas goes like this...

You buy a gift that you think they will like. Oftentimes it is something you would like, or think is neat, and buy getting it, you are not only giving a gift, but part of yourself along with the gift.

The joy is not necessarily in the getting, but rather, in the giving. You should be happy that you have people who care enough about you to actually get you something, to give you something they could have kept.

Seriously, what kind of example are you setting for son? "Get me what I want or I'll throw it in the trash and snub you!" isn't exactly a Christmas message I'd want to give.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

spatha said:
			
		

> WOW that is an interesting perspective. Someone bought you a gift maybe hoping you might take the time to watch and maybe enjoy it.




Yes, he bought me something that not only wassn't something I wanted, but that I had explicitly said was the sort of thing I _didn't_ want. I cannot stand Adam Sandler. I hate him with the passion of 10,000 burning suns. He knows this. He got me an Adam Sandler movie. He was really thinking about me when he decideed to get that!


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Many people think that the poor starving masses of the third world are appreciative of help when people try to give it. But the blunt truth is that many are not. Many are angry because of their own helplessness, and the fact that you represent concrete evidence of their helplessness. Many are not only not appreciative, but downright hostile because of this. It insults their strength as a person to accept aid from you, especially since you come from a culture that they see as a historical oppressor. People who do relief work in third world countries expecting to feel gratitude and appreciation are often sorely disappointed. You have to do the work for its own sake, not for any appreciation those you help will give you. If that comes, it is a bonus.




I worked at a Vietnamese refugee camp helping people better themselves by teaching them to speak English and use computers. They were always grateful and very polite. I was invited many times to share in what little food they could afford and I was always humbled by those gestures. From your previouse posts, I think it's fair to guess that it was your own attitude that made people hostile towards you.


----------



## EricNoah (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> The joy is not necessarily in the getting, but rather, in the giving.




Joy ... and pain. (Plus ... Sunshine, and rain, of course.)

The pain of sitting there going "I have no idea what to get my grandma" turns into "bah, I'll just get her a stupid pen and she can do what she wants to with it."  Yeah, I suck at Christmas. 

Actually I love it when folks provide me with lists.  It helps me know them better plus it removes the hardest part of shopping for Christmas -- figuring out the gift.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Many people think that *family and friends* are appreciative of *gifts* when people try to give *them*. But the blunt truth is that many are not. Many are angry because of their own *sense of self worth*, and the fact that you represent concrete evidence of their *selfishness*. Many are not only not appreciative, but downright hostile because of this. It insults their *sense of what they are due* to accept *a gift they didn't want* from you, especially since you *had a list*. People who *give gifts* expecting to feel gratitude and appreciation are often sorely disappointed. You have to *give the gift* for its own sake, not for any appreciation those you help will give you. If that comes, it is a bonus.



Fixed and quoted for the spirit of Christmas (Trademark of the Disney Corporation)

Seriously, dude, you let some time with a bunch of people like that ruin your feelings for Christmas, and suck the joy out of your life. You need to put behind the fact that they didn't appreciate what you did for them, and get on with life and relearn how to appreciate things.

Your son didn't give you anything on your list, instead, gave you a $2 paperweight? Did that hit File 13 too?


----------



## Henry (Dec 6, 2005)

I said it before, and I'll say it one last time: Gents, let's lay off the personal attacks. Call SR's letter insulting, disagree with 'im, whatever, but lay off the name-calling and the character assassinations, or get a three-day temp-ban.

Thank you.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> The only reason BRUT by Fabrege is still in business is because kids think that their father's will like it. It sits in the drawer till they become teenagers and steal it.




And that sucks as a gift. Giving someone something they don't want is not in the "holiday season". It is thoughtless and rude.



> _You buy a gift that you think they will like. Oftentimes it is something you would like, or think is neat, and buy getting it, you are not only giving a gift, but part of yourself along with the gift.
> 
> The joy is not necessarily in the getting, but rather, in the giving. You should be happy that you have people who care enough about you to actually get you something, to give you something they could have kept._





if the joy is in the giving, then you should give something the recipient wants. All I see from the "pro-personalized gift" people is that you want to "give something of yourself" in the gift, and don't want to just get someone something they want. That's the height of self-centered rudeness. You are setting your desires ("to give something of yourself") above the desires of the recipient. You are deciding that your enjoyment in giving a gift you like is more important than their enjoyment in getting a gift they want.

And I'm the rude one? I don't think so. Without acknowledgeing it, you are perpetuating one of the rudest practices I can think of.



> _Seriously, what kind of example are you setting for son?_





The example I set for my son is that he gets gifts he actually wants. He understands that my generosity is in getting him something _for him_ that _he_ thinks is cool, not something I think is cool.


----------



## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> This is a last resort. I have tried all the polite and nice ways of getting this message out. I can't figure out any way to get my point out other than hitting them over the head with a clue-by-four.



How something like "I'd prefer to not receive any gifts this year.  I'm lucky to have all the things I need and want.  If your holday spirit compels you to spend money on me, please share that spirit by making a donation to [Storm Raven's favorite charity] in my name.  Happy Holidays."


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## Warrior Poet (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> There is nothing "practical" about a pen that costs more than a hundred dollars.



I would like to suggest an alternative interpretation about this.  Actually, a pen of such cost can be very practical (in my opinion).  I own a Mont Blanc pen that was a gift to me from my father, as it sounds like you have been in a similar situation.  I have owned the pen for years.  Though it is not the most expensive Mont Blanc available, it is a very nice pen that was not cheap.

It's the finest writing instrument I've ever used.  Literally.  Not just because it's expensive.  But it _is_ expensive _because_ it was made so well, so precisely, so carefully, that it writes better than any pen I've ever encountered.  It's fairly practical, in that it is a really good pen, highly durable, goes well with casual or formal wear (I know, this seems silly in the context of a pen, but it can apply, depending on your job, or whatever), and writes like a dream.

Anyway, not only was it a really nice gesture from my father, it's also practical, and it's lasted longer than any other pen I own, precisely because it was made well enough that it would last.  So it's kind of a combination of practical and extravagant and memorable.

Also, Warlord Raltz, I love your posts on this board.  I would add something from my own interpretation to something very interesting you said.



			
				Warlord Raltz said:
			
		

> Caring about someone isn't giving them what they want.



I would say, "Caring about someone isn't giving them what they want, but can sometimes involve giving them what they want."

Storm Raven, I guess kinda the thing about all this is how you approach it.  If you think your family's behavior is rude, fine.  I don't know your family.  But how you respond can say a lot.  You don't think they get you thoughtful gifts.  Fine.  Get them thoughtful gifts anyway.  They're rude, but you don't have to be.  Don't like Adam Sandler?  Cool, I'm not a big fan either.  But I'd get my brother-in-law an Adam Sandler movie if I knew he liked them, even if my brother-in-law didn't get me what I wanted, and even if he got me something I specifically didn't like (assuming it's not, like, say, an apple with a razor blade in it, or something, in which case I'd have to get my brother-in-law committed), and even if he intentionally got me something I specfically didn't like (razor-blade apple examples an exception, obviously).  In the case of the latter, future gift exchanges would probably be altered, but anyway.

I'm not making much sense.  Hmmm.  I'm kind sorry I stumbled into this thread.  It's really grim.  I gotta go.

Warrior Poet


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I worked at a Vietnamese refugee camp helping people better themselves by teaching them to speak English and use computers. They were always grateful and very polite. I was invited many times to share in what little food they could afford and I was always humbled by those gestures. From your previouse posts, I think it's fair to guess that it was your own attitude that made people hostile towards you.




Maybe it is just Africa. Many people we worked with were hostile to everyone. Accepting help apparently insults their personhood.


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## Henry (Dec 6, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> How something like "I'd prefer to not receive any gifts this year.  I'm lucky to have all the things I need and want.  If your holday spirit compels you to spend money on me, please share that spirit by making a donation to [Storm Raven's favorite charity] in my name.  Happy Holidays."




I'm almost tempted to do that very thing.


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## Desdichado (Dec 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I worked at a Vietnamese refugee camp helping people better themselves by teaching them to speak English and use computers. They were always grateful and very polite. I was invited many times to share in what little food they could afford and I was always humbled by those gestures. From your previouse posts, I think it's fair to guess that it was your own attitude that made people hostile towards you.



I had very similar experiences in South America.  Did some people hate me just because I was American?  Sure.  But most of them were very welcoming, appreciative that I thought them valuable enough to expend that much time and effort.


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## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> if the joy is in the giving, then you should give something the recipient wants.




Bzzzt!  Incorrect.

You could give them something they want.
You could give them something they need.
You could give them something you hope they can use.
You could give them something you like in the hopes they'll like it too.
You could give them something you made.
You could give them something you saw that made you think of them.

There are plenty of options, and "What they want" is only the least of them.  Almost all the other options demonstrate far more thought and caring tham simply picking something off an inflated "I want" list.


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## buzzard (Dec 6, 2005)

The more I hear from SR the more I think my magazine example is appropos. He has been getting things he has clearly indicated he did not want. It doesn't not take a rocket scientist to avoid buying unwanted gifts when the information is clearly presented. 

But since everyone seems to be focused on the spirit of the thing, let's ask a different question. As it is said to be all in the spirit of giving, and it is the season is the season of giving, then the gift and recipient don't matter right? I mean if I give $100 to a political party in your name that you don't like because I think it is for the best of you and the country, the spirit of the gift would be correct right? You'd have no cause to complain without being a grinch. 

buzzard


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> How something like "I'd prefer to not receive any gifts this year.  I'm lucky to have all the things I need and want.  If your holday spirit compels you to spend money on me, please share that spirit by making a donation to [Storm Raven's favorite charity] in my name.  Happy Holidays."




If I did that, I am sure I would get a copy of _The Simpsons: Season Five_ or something like that. Their thinking would probably be something like "he said he would like that Aeon Flux collection, so he likes animation, but Aeon Flux is weird, he can't possibly want that, so let's get him The Simpsons, even though he hasn't ever actually watched that show".


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## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> I'm almost tempted to do that very thing.




That's always a great option.  Somehow, I find it more meaningful to put that out there as the recipient than to receive one of those "we made a donation in your name to some cause we care about" cards.  I don't know why really, it's probably the recipient disengaging himself from the gift line that makes it seem more meaningful to me.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And that sucks as a gift. Giving someone something they don't want is not in the "holiday season". It is thoughtless and rude.



It sucks as a gift, yeah, but it's also part of fatherhood. You're child gets you something that a father uses, that they associate with being a father.

It's not thoughtless and rude. It's a child (usually around the age of 10) who bought thier father some cologne or aftershave, who took the time to think, and look, and liked the fancy label and felt box.

yeah, it's cheap crap cologne, but it isn't the gift.

It's the fact that your 10 year old son bought it for you.



> if the joy is in the giving, then you should give something the recipient wants.



If they want it that bad, they can quit begging me for it and buy it themself.

You're looking at it more like: "Get me what I want, it's Christmas" when that isn't the meaning of Christmas or gifts at all.

You should surprise the recipeint, maybe get them something they'd never get themselves for various reasons, or maybe get them something thoughtful.



> All I see from the "pro-personalized gift" people is that you want to "give something of yourself" in the gift, and don't want to just get someone something they want. That's the height of self-centered rudeness.



Oh, this I gotta see.


> You are setting your desires ("to give something of yourself") above the desires of the recipient. You are deciding that your enjoyment in giving a gift you like is more important than their enjoyment in getting a gift they want.



THEY WANT! THEY WANT!

Dude, you're like a broken record here.

Requiring me to get you something you want isn't gift giving. It's extortian. Seriously, all it is is emotional blackmail. You're basically blackmailing family and friends to get you what you want, rather than get you what they'd like to get you. You might as well tell them to take you to the store with them so you can pick what you want. Oh, and they'll pay for it.



> And I'm the rude one? I don't think so.



Sorry, but you are. Seriously, how much more evidence do you need? If this was a federal case, they'd be leading you off in chains for your appointment with Mr. Happy Needle in Riker's by now.



> Without acknowledgeing it, you are perpetuating one of the rudest practices I can think of.



Trust me, there's a lot ruder practices.

See, you give a gift out of the spirit of generosity, not on the demands of the recipient.


> The example I set for my son is that he gets gifts he actually wants. He understands that my generosity is in getting him something _for him_ that _he_ thinks is cool, not something I think is cool.



Well, without delving into different parenting styles, are you at least teaching him to be grateful when he gets a gift that wasn't on his list?


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> You could give them something you hope they can use.
> You could give them something you like in the hopes they'll like it too.
> You could give them something you made.
> You could give them something you saw that made you think of them.
> ...




Wrong. Every single one of these options places your desires above the desires of the recipient. If you were truly generous and giving, your hopes and desires would not enter into the equation. These are just gifts that make you feel better that you are guessing they will like. If they don't, they shouldn't have to feign happiness because you decided to put your own desires above theirs when you came up with your gift.


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## freebfrost (Dec 6, 2005)

This was already mentioned a while back, but I think it bears repeating.

Storm Raven, since it appears your family uses email, why don't you set up a wish list (at Amazon or other online places), and just send them a notice that you have a wish list at the appropriate site.  

I ended up doing this, and now everyone just asks me every year if my Wish List is updated yet.  It achieves the same result as your email but is a bit more tactful.

If you make the list big enough, and with enough variance in price ranges, that everyone can find something suitable and even "surprise" you with something you had forgotten was put on the list a while back.


----------



## spatha (Dec 6, 2005)

A question for Storm Raven.
You said your son gave you a paper weight. Was that on a list? Was that soemthing you told your wife to hint to people you wanted? If not why keep it? What makes it different than the pen from your Father besides the price?


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Maybe it is just Africa. Many people we worked with were hostile to everyone. Accepting help apparently insults their personhood.



Maybe it was just the people you encountered. People I know that did work there found the people fearful at times, but for the most part, your average person was just glad to see them, and more than grateful for the help they offered.


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## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Wrong. Every single one of these options places your desires above the desires of the recipient. If you were truly generous and giving, your hopes and desires would not enter into the equation. These are just gifts that make you feel better that you are guessing they will like. If they don't, they shouldn't have to feign happiness because you decided to put your own desires above theirs when you came up with your gift.




That's becasue the giving is more important then the recieving!!  Seriously, if it's so bad why do you put up with these people that are supposed to be your friends and family?


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## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Wrong. Every single one of these options places your desires above the desires of the recipient. If you were truly generous and giving, your hopes and desires would not enter into the equation. These are just gifts that make you feel better that you are guessing they will like. If they don't, they shouldn't have to feign happiness because you decided to put your own desires above theirs when you came up with your gift.




Good lord, responding properly to this would invoke the wrath of Henry, so I'll leave you to wallow in your delusions instead.  You may not actually be happy with them, but you at least seem comfortable in the world you've imagined.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Wrong. Every single one of these options places your desires above the desires of the recipient. If you were truly generous and giving, your hopes and desires would not enter into the equation. These are just gifts that make you feel better that you are guessing they will like. If they don't, they shouldn't have to feign happiness because you decided to put your own desires above theirs when you came up with your gift.



Well, seeing as we have completely cleared it up that the spirit of Christmas is giving people exactly what they want, why even bother with the holiday? Why bother wrapping, having presents, or even a tree?

Every December 25th, you take people to the store, and give them gift cards to a store of thier choosing.

That way the gift reciever is happy, and you are not being selfish.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> I would like to suggest an alternative interpretation about this.  Actually, a pen of such cost can be very practical (in my opinion).  I own a Mont Blanc pen that was a gift to me from my father, as it sounds like you have been in a similar situation.  I have owned the pen for years.  Though it is not the most expensive Mont Blanc available, it is a very nice pen that was not cheap.
> 
> It's the finest writing instrument I've ever used.  Literally.  Not just because it's expensive.  But it _is_ expensive _because_ it was made so well, so precisely, so carefully, that it writes better than any pen I've ever encountered.  It's fairly practical, in that it is a really good pen, highly durable, goes well with casual or formal wear (I know, this seems silly in the context of a pen, but it can apply, depending on your job, or whatever), and writes like a dream.




Oh, I'm certain it is a great pen. But I know myself. I will lose the thing. He got me a pen some years ago which I promptly lost. I lose pens. I have dozens of them on hand because of this. Or it will sit in a drawer in my desk and never be used. He knows this. I have told him this. Basically I told him that if ever I had a pen like one of his, I would certainly lose it, or never use it. The pen itself - nice. The practicality of it - nil.



> _I would say, "Caring about someone isn't giving them what they want, but can sometimes involve giving them what they want."_





Caring about someone is putting their desires above your own.



> _Storm Raven, I guess kinda the thing about all this is how you approach it.  If you think your family's behavior is rude, fine.  I don't know your family.  But how you respond can say a lot.  You don't think they get you thoughtful gifts.  Fine.  Get them thoughtful gifts anyway.  They're rude, but you don't have to be.  Don't like Adam Sandler?  Cool, I'm not a big fan either.  But I'd get my brother-in-law an Adam Sandler movie if I knew he liked them, even if my brother-in-law didn't get me what I wanted, and even if he got me something I specifically didn't like (assuming it's not, like, say, an apple with a razor blade in it, or something, in which case I'd have to get my brother-in-law committed), and even if he intentionally got me something I specfically didn't like (razor-blade apple examples an exception, obviously).  In the case of the latter, future gift exchanges would probably be altered, but anyway._





You see, I would get my brother-in-law an Adam Sandler movie, because I know he likes them (assuming, for a moment, there is one on DVD that he doesn't already own). I have no desire for such an item, but I know he does. That he gets me stuff I don't want, and would never want is vexing.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> This was already mentioned a while back, but I think it bears repeating.
> 
> Storm Raven, since it appears your family uses email, why don't you set up a wish list (at Amazon or other online places), and just send them a notice that you have a wish list at the appropriate site.




As I said before, I did this in previous years. it didn't work. The only person to bother with my wish list was my wife. Everyone else ignored the subtle hint and got me whatever they happened to stumble across in Wal-Mart.



> _If you make the list big enough, and with enough variance in price ranges, that everyone can find something suitable and even "surprise" you with something you had forgotten was put on the list a while back._





I always make my list large enough to encompass a wide array of prices. This has had no impact.


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## Thanee (Dec 6, 2005)

Just tell everyone you don't want any gifts. Really, christmas is not meant to be shopping heaven, even though it somehow seems to be like that these days. 

If gifts are just a bunch of stuff one could use, then the purpose of giving them in the first place is already completely failed. There is really no reason to give anything at all, then, except some false feeling of obligation to do so. Making gifts is not about obligation, that's pretty much the opposite of it.

Bye
Thanee


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## billd91 (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Caring about someone is putting their desires above your own.
> .




I'm guessing you don't care much about your family members who give you bad gifts. Clearly you aren't putting their desires to choose the gifts they give you above your own desires.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Oh, I'm certain it is a great pen. But I know myself. I will lose the thing. He got me a pen some years ago which I promptly lost. I lose pens. I have dozens of them on hand because of this. Or it will sit in a drawer in my desk and never be used. He knows this. I have told him this. Basically I told him that if ever I had a pen like one of his, I would certainly lose it, or never use it. The pen itself - nice. The practicality of it - nil.



Maybe he's giving you a pen that you will strive not to lose, that you will care enough about to keep track of, and in doing that, you'll always have one nearby.



> Caring about someone is putting their desires above your own.



I disagree.

A child desires to eat ice cream all the time and stay up and watch TV.

You make sure they eat 3 squares a day and go to bed.

Caring about someone is a complex situation, one not easily boiled down.

But above your own? No. That's making yourself subservient to them. Equal to your own? Yes.



Serious question for you...

What does Christmas mean to you? Honestly? Is it a time to do charity, give unto others, give gifts out of kindness, do volunteer work? What does it mean to you?


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

spatha said:
			
		

> A question for Storm Raven.
> You said your son gave you a paper weight. Was that on a list? Was that soemthing you told your wife to hint to people you wanted? If not why keep it? What makes it different than the pen from your Father besides the price?




No, it was not on the list. He was in 1st grade at the time, and got gifts on his own. Being too young for lists, and too young to actually spend the money on the gifts on my list, I appreciated his effort. But the members of my family are old enough to read my list, and can afford to get things from it without any trouble. My father is old enough to know what I want, and what I would never want, and does. My son was six at the time, and did not. That's the difference.


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## Warrior Poet (Dec 6, 2005)

I shouldn't have come back, but I had to respond to this:


			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Caring about someone is putting their desires above your own.



I respectfully disagree, to an extent.  Like my other thought along the lines of Warlord Ralts' statement, "Caring about someone isn't giving them what they want, but it sometimes involves putting their desires above your own."

A member of my family is married to an alcoholic.  Their marriage has broken down on many levels, and they recently split.  My family member is very distraught, and trying to figure things out.  I know that one of my family member's desires is to go back to the marriage.  I care about my family member.  I am unwilling to put that desire above my own, which is that my family member continue to take time to analyze and fix what can be fixed and move on and get out of a bad situation.

Now, what my family member does is that person's decision.  But that doesn't mean I don't care if I think that person's desire should NOT be followed through, or fulfilled.

Warlord Ralts can probably explain this better than I can.  I'm not expressing this very well.

Warrior Poet


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## PirateMary (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Wrong. Every single one of these options places your desires above the desires of the recipient. If you were truly generous and giving, your hopes and desires would not enter into the equation. These are just gifts that make you feel better that you are guessing they will like. If they don't, they shouldn't have to feign happiness because you decided to put your own desires above theirs when you came up with your gift.



Un-freakin-believable!  Well, it's all about you then, no need to think for themselves cause what you want is more important than them feeling as if they've done something on their own to bring you joy.  Idiots.  Fools.  Thinking that they had an opinion in how their holiday money is spent.  The gaul of some people.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> Clearly you aren't putting their desires to choose the gifts they give you above your own desires.




People keep saying that the spirit of Christmas is in the _giving_ and the _generosity_. if that is so, then the _giver_ should place the recipients desires above his own. Otherwise, you are just getting someone a gift that makes you feel good, not a gift that is truly generous in nature.


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## Warrior Poet (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> People keep saying that the spirit of Christmas is in the _giving_ and the _generosity_. if that is so, then the _giver_ should place the recipients desires above his own. Otherwise, you are just getting someone a gift that makes you feel good, not a gift that is truly generous in nature.




Which see:



			
				Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> A child desires to eat ice cream all the time and stay up and watch TV.
> 
> You make sure they eat 3 squares a day and go to bed.
> 
> ...




Warrior Poet


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Maybe he's giving you a pen that you will strive not to lose, that you will care enough about to keep track of, and in doing that, you'll always have one nearby.




Either I will never use it, or it will get lost. I know this. He knows this. He knows that I do not want a pen like that, and have told him so, for this very reason.



> _I disagree.
> 
> A child desires to eat ice cream all the time and stay up and watch TV.
> 
> You make sure they eat 3 squares a day and go to bed._





That is not a Christmas gift, and thus, is inapplicable to the situation.



> _What does Christmas mean to you? Honestly? Is it a time to do charity, give unto others, give gifts out of kindness, do volunteer work? What does it mean to you?_





Without getting into religious angles, Christmas is about generosity for the most part. But giving a gift that the recipient doesn't want (and you know it isn't something they want) is not being generous. It is being selfish, and placing your own desires above theirs. How is that in the Christmas spirit?


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> People keep saying that the spirit of Christmas is in the _giving_ and the _generosity_. if that is so, then the _giver_ should place the recipients desires above his own. Otherwise, you are just getting someone a gift that makes you feel good, not a gift that is truly generous in nature.



OK, the generosity is taking what you have, and sharing it with them.

In our modern society, that has translated into spending money on gifts. We have money, we share it by giving gifts.

That is generous.

See, for a lot of us, we nearly bankrupt ourselves during Christmas. Life would probably be a lot cheaper without such things, and even more cheaper if we ditched birthday gifts, anniversary gifts, etc.

But the point is, we share what we have by giving gifts. WE choose the gifts because WE are sharing our money, and our time, with the person who will get the gifts.

I wanted a Mustang or a Porche 911 for Christmas. My friends pooled some cash and bought me a Bavarian Crystal replica about two feet long made of hand carved/blown crystal. An excellent gift that I treasure far more than I would have ever treasured the car.

We share what we have, be it the time to make a nice little painting/sculpture, or cash to buy something we think might amuse, delight, or please someone else.

You say you don't like surprises, and in some ways, it feels like you've lost a lot of joy out of life. Seriously, man, working with the Feds can do that, it kind of sucks away everything to a monochrome.

Take some time to go out and enjoy the world. Take the kid to see the iced up lake, or the Christmas lights, or something like that.

Give yourself a gift, Storm Raven, and search out the meaning of joy and Christmas.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Well, seeing as we have completely cleared it up that the spirit of Christmas is giving people exactly what they want, why even bother with the holiday? Why bother wrapping, having presents, or even a tree?




Having a tree is enjoyable. Everything else you mention is tertiary at best.



> _Every December 25th, you take people to the store, and give them gift cards to a store of thier choosing._





Stores are usually closed on the 25th, but otherwise that would be fine by me.


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## Desdichado (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Without getting into religious angles, Christmas is about generosity for the most part. But giving a gift that the recipient doesn't want (and you know it isn't something they want) is not being generous. It is being selfish, and placing your own desires above theirs. How is that in the Christmas spirit?



What are you, the Christmas police?  If you want to ask that question with a straight face, kindly explain how in the hell your attitude has anything to do with the Christmas spirit first.


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## Einan (Dec 6, 2005)

Wow.  This thread is like wildfire.

I just wanted to add a small bit to the fire:  Maybe your Dad gave you a really nice pen because he loves the act of collecting these pens and wanted to share a small part of his joy with you.  An appropriate response would be to reach out to him by giving him something you enjoy, in order to share what you gain joy from with him.  If you dig role-playing, get him a book about it.  Then sit down and discuss what part of the hobby each of you enjoys gives you joy about it.  It's an opportunity for a great father-son moment.  

Trust me.  You'll never regret those moments.

Einan


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Either I will never use it, or it will get lost. I know this. He knows this. He knows that I do not want a pen like that, and have told him so, for this very reason.



So you're just going to give up? You're not even going to go for the hidden meaning, the symbolism in it? Why not? Try to keep track of it. Make it a focus of getting more organized.

Every time you see the pen, you'll be reminded of your father. The effort you put into keeping track of it will speak of respect for him and appreciation for his gift.



> That is not a Christmas gift, and thus, is inapplicable to the situation.



Point of fact: It is applicable to caring for someone, which is applicable to the situation.



> Without getting into religious angles, Christmas is about generosity for the most part. But giving a gift that the recipient doesn't want (and you know it isn't something they want) is not being generous. It is being selfish, and placing your own desires above theirs. How is that in the Christmas spirit?



Part of generosity on your side should be the willingness to accept a gift you didn't want. Generosity is more than just spending money, it is also being willing to be inconvienced by things you don't want or like.

A little generosity on your side, with your time at last, could mean the world to someone.

I notice that you focus mostly around the gifts with generosity, but what about the rest of Christmas? What about it being a time for being with family, for appreciating what you have, and are able to share with others, for reflecting on how good you have it?

Where's the Joy part of it?


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Having a tree is enjoyable. Everything else you mention is tertiary at best.



Ummm, you are aware of the Meaning of Christmas?



> Stores are usually closed on the 25th, but otherwise that would be fine by me.



I pray that Hastur show me that this is merely all a carefully contrived troll.

But...

::sigh::

Consider this my Christmas gift to you. It isn't on your list, becasue you don't realize that you need it, or that you do not have it.

Find out what the Spirit of Christmas is. Why it is more than just the materialistic gifts.

Rent It's a Wonderful Life, and watch it. REALLY watch it.
Watch It's a Charlie Brown Christmas.

Go to a homeless shelter and see what it is to have truly lost everything, then go home and look around you.

Watch your son's breathless excitement as he opens a present.

Go and get him something he has NEVER displayed any interest in, wrap it up, and give it to him, then allow him to open it right there.

Dude, find your Christmas spirit. It's out there, looking for you. I really do feel sorry for you that Christmas is little more than a tree and some material gifts.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> OK, the generosity is taking what you have, and sharing it with them.
> 
> In our modern society, that has translated into spending money on gifts. We have money, we share it by giving gifts.
> 
> That is generous.




Not if the gift is something you want, and not something that puts their desires above yours.



> _See, for a lot of us, we nearly bankrupt ourselves during Christmas. Life would probably be a lot cheaper without such things, and even more cheaper if we ditched birthday gifts, anniversary gifts, etc._





If you choose to overspend, that's not my problem. I didn't make you decide to get a gift.



> _But the point is, we share what we have by giving gifts. WE choose the gifts because WE are sharing our money, and our time, with the person who will get the gifts.
> 
> I wanted a Mustang or a Porche 911 for Christmas. My friends pooled some cash and bought me a Bavarian Crystal replica about two feet long made of hand carved/blown crystal. An excellent gift that I treasure far more than I would have ever treasured the car._





And the nature of that gift is that they got something that placed your desires above any their might have had. What if they decided, instead, to get you a replica of the mule Brighty, from the story _Brighty of the Grand Canyon_. Would it still be a great gift?



> _You say you don't like surprises, and in some ways, it feels like you've lost a lot of joy out of life. Seriously, man, working with the Feds can do that, it kind of sucks away everything to a monochrome._





I don't like surprises. Never have. I haven't lost that "joy". They were never enjoyable for me. People like different things. I don't like surprises. Deal with it. If you were a family member of mine, and actually cared about me, you'd remember this and plan accordingly. Getting me a "surprise" just shows me that you couldn't care less about me, or my preferences. Or worse yet, you are trying to "fix" me, because if you "surprise" me enough I will somehow discover that despite never liking them in my entire life, I really do now. I don't like peaches either, forcing peaches on me isn't going to make me like them.



> _Take some time to go out and enjoy the world. Take the kid to see the iced up lake, or the Christmas lights, or something like that._





I live too far south for iced up lakes, at least most Decembers. We go to see Christmas lights every year, but that has no bearing on whether giving gifts that don't account for the recipient's desires are actually given out of generosity.


----------



## spatha (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No, it was not on the list. He was in 1st grade at the time, and got gifts on his own. Being too young for lists, and too young to actually spend the money on the gifts on my list, I appreciated his effort. But the members of my family are old enough to read my list, and can afford to get things from it without any trouble. My father is old enough to know what I want, and what I would never want, and does. My son was six at the time, and did not. That's the difference.



Your wife wasn't old enough to intercept the gift and say "no Daddy doesn't want that"?
Your wife couldn't have said "you know what little guy why don't we get this thing daddy wants and make it from you"? No she didn't because she new your son would get greater pleasure out of giving you what he wanted to give you. The same is true of your father. He gave you something he felt was apropriate for what ever reason and that should be good enough for you.
My sister with every present to my son has bought him something he hasn't wanted or would ever use even though she has called and talked to him and asked what he wants . Every time he gets a gift he thanks her anyways as that is the polite thing to do.


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## Thanee (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Without getting into religious angles, Christmas is about generosity for the most part. But giving a gift that the recipient doesn't want (and you know it isn't something they want) is not being generous. It is being selfish, and placing your own desires above theirs. How is that in the Christmas spirit?




I somewhat agree with you here, altho possibly not for the same reasons. 

Just buying something for the sole reason of buying something is certainly not the intent of what is called 'Christmas spirit', whether it is selected from a wish list or from the top 10 christmas gifts list at Wal-Mart. It's not really selfish, altho a point could be made, that not being willing to 'waste' time on thinking about a fitting gift is selfish in a way.

Bye
Thanee


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Einan said:
			
		

> I just wanted to add a small bit to the fire:  Maybe your Dad gave you a really nice pen because he loves the act of collecting these pens and wanted to share a small part of his joy with you.  An appropriate response would be to reach out to him by giving him something you enjoy, in order to share what you gain joy from with him.  If you dig role-playing, get him a book about it.  Then sit down and discuss what part of the hobby each of you enjoys gives you joy about it.  It's an opportunity for a great father-son moment.




He doesn't like role-playing. He never has, and never will. I know this. Hence, I do not buy him role playing materials. He even had a hint passed on to me today (through my mother). He wants the book _What Stalin Knew_.

Instead, he is going to be getting _Beverley Hills Ninja_, a movie I know he hates. Because it makes me feel good to get him something that I want to give him, and not something he actually wants.


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## PirateMary (Dec 6, 2005)

spatha said:
			
		

> Your wife wasn't old enough to intercept the gift and say "no Daddy doesn't want that"?
> Your wife couldn't have said "you know what little guy why don't we get this thing daddy wants and make it from you"? No she didn't because she new your son would get greater pleasure out of giving you what he wanted to give you. The same is true of your father. He gave you something he felt was apropriate for what ever reason and that should be good enough for you.
> My sister with every present to my son has bought him something he hasn't wanted or would ever use even though she has called and talked to him and asked what he wants . Every time he gets a gift he thanks her anyways as that is the polite thing to do.



There is no room for civil behavior in the world of the self-absorbed.
It's his way, or kiss his bum.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

spatha said:
			
		

> Your wife wasn't old enough to intercept the gift and say "no Daddy doesn't want that"?




No, because he bought all his gifts at school through a school program.



> _Your wife couldn't have said "you know what little guy why don't we get this thing daddy wants and make it from you"? No she didn't because she new your son would get greater pleasure out of giving you what he wanted to give you. The same is true of your father. He gave you something he felt was apropriate for what ever reason and that should be good enough for you._





The kids also give each of us gifts based on what we wanted to get. They are learning that when you giver a gift, to think of the recipient, and not yourself.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Not if the gift is something you want, and not something that puts their desires above yours.



Actually, they don't HAVE to share anything with you. From money, to time, to even a lousy phone call.



> If you choose to overspend, that's not my problem. I didn't make you decide to get a gift.



OOOH! Look! You got me a strawman for Christmas! And here I thought you didn't care!



> And the nature of that gift is that they got something that placed your desires above any their might have had. What if they decided, instead, to get you a replica of the mule Brighty, from the story _Brighty of the Grand Canyon_. Would it still be a great gift?



You don't get it, do you? It was a great gift, not because of WHAT it was, or how much it cost, but because they went and bought it, my FRIENDS cared enough to get me something beautiful that I couldn't afford. But all you see is that I desired a 911.

Fine, here's another little Christmas story for you...

I have a battered old dead timex watch on a sweaty stained band taped to my desk back. It was a Christmas gift. During Wintex, my friend took off his watch, wrapped it in an MRE Dehydrated Beef Patty box, and gave it to me.

I still have it.



> I don't like surprises. Never have.



I don't either. In my line of work, suprise used to == screaming and bloodshed.



> I haven't lost that "joy". They were never enjoyable for me. People like different things. I don't like surprises. Deal with it. If you were a family member of mine, and actually cared about me, you'd remember this and plan accordingly. Getting me a "surprise" just shows me that you couldn't care less about me, or my preferences. Or worse yet, you are trying to "fix" me, because if you "surprise" me enough I will somehow discover that despite never liking them in my entire life, I really do now. I don't like peaches either, forcing peaches on me isn't going to make me like them.



You really don't understand, do you?

The joy I keep referring to is the Joy of Christmas.



> I live too far south for iced up lakes, at least most Decembers. We go to see Christmas lights every year, but that has no bearing on whether giving gifts that don't account for the recipient's desires are actually given out of generosity.



It has to do with the spirit of Christmas.


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## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Not if the gift is something you want, and not something that puts their desires above yours.
> 
> If you choose to overspend, that's not my problem. I didn't make you decide to get a gift.
> 
> ...




I don't know any way to say this without it sounding suspiciously like an attack, but do you often find human interactions and social conventions difficult to understand?  Do you find comfort in rigidity and sameness?  Do you wonder why people "lie" to each other instead of being ruthlessly honest in any and all situations?  Do you wonder why your own efforts at clarity are not received well by others?

Your posts may not be you, but they are painting a picture that is sounding increasingly familiar.  Knowing one way or the other won't change anything, but at least we'd know we're wasting our time on the subtleties of behavior and intent.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> He doesn't like role-playing. He never has, and never will. I know this. Hence, I do not buy him role playing materials. He even had a hint passed on to me today (through my mother). He wants the book _What Stalin Knew_.
> 
> Instead, he is going to be getting _Beverley Hills Ninja_, a movie I know he hates. Because it makes me feel good to get him something that I want to give him, and not something he actually wants.



Get him an RPG. You know he hates them, you know he never will like them.

At least, then, you can say: "I just wanted you to have something that I like too."

And I hope he gets drunk, watches Beverley Hills Ninja, and laughs his ass off at it, and then THANKS YOU FOR IT!


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## Scorpionfolke (Dec 6, 2005)

wow...I thought not being able to spend Christmas with my daughter was a terrible christmas thing----SR you have me beat


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Ummm, you are aware of the Meaning of Christmas?




Wrapping presents and getting gifts are the meaning of Christmas? I think not.



> _Find out what the Spirit of Christmas is. Why it is more than just the materialistic gifts._





Yes, which is why I would rather have no gifts than bad gifts. If you are going to get me crap, don't get me anything. I don't need crap under my tree to enjoy Christmas. I especially don't need crap that I don't like that I am supposed to pretend to be happy to get.



> _Rent It's a Wonderful Life, and watch it. REALLY watch it.
> Watch It's a Charlie Brown Christmas._





Seen 'em both. Own 'em both. Neither puts out the point than "wrapping presents and giving gifts" is at all important to Christmas.



> _Watch your son's breathless excitement as he opens a present._





And, according to those posting here, I should get him socks, so I can watch him try to mask his disappointment and pretend he really wanted socks for Christmas. What fun!



> _Go and get him something he has NEVER displayed any interest in, wrap it up, and give it to him, then allow him to open it right there._





That is the worst advice in this thread.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> You don't get it, do you? It was a great gift, not because of WHAT it was, or how much it cost, but because they went and bought it, my FRIENDS cared enough to get me something beautiful that I couldn't afford. But all you see is that I desired a 911..




And if they had gotten you something, equally expensive, that you didn't want,. never had any desire to own, and told them you didn't want, exactly how treasured would that gift be?

You care about the gift because _it reflected your desires_. They got you something _you wanted_. You appreciate the thought because they _took the time to think of what you wanted_.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

You still don't get it, do you?

You act like it's all about you, that it's actually "Gifts for Storm Raven" day.

You come across as arrogant, demanding, selfish, and uncaring.

You claim it's everyone else's fault, and that we are all in the wrong, for believing that it's more than just the gift, it's the feeling behind it.

You claim that none of us really understand Christmas, and when we call you on just how rediculous that is, you dodge, deflect, and weasel.

Here's the point: People are going to get you gifts. Some of them you may not like. Writing a list and demanding you get what is listed on it is not only rude, but it is ungrateful and selfish.

You are being selfish and ungrateful, demanding that people cater to you and your desires this holiday season.

You have no idea of what the meaning of Christmas is, having distilled it down to getting what you want.

You've lost the Joy in Christmas, and try to deflect that fact by pointing out that wrapping and having gifts isn't part of that, but yet, you claim it totally ruins your Christmas to get bad gifts.

You'd rather have nothing than a gift you don't want, since it is too much of a bother to show common human decency to someone who cared enough to give you a gift.

The Grinch thinks your a joyless, dour, self centered miser who is more interested in getting exactly what he wants rather than enjoying what he got.



No matter what you tell me, it doesn't change one basic fact.

I can enjoy any gift given to me, if nothing else because I meant enough for them to get me a gift.

You can't.

I win at Christmas.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> I don't know any way to say this without it sounding suspiciously like an attack, but do you often find human interactions and social conventions difficult to understand?




No, I just don't like surprises.



> _Do you find comfort in rigidity and sameness?_





I find comfort in people actually getting gifts they want to have.



> _Do you wonder why people "lie" to each other instead of being ruthlessly honest in any and all situations?  Do you wonder why your own efforts at clarity are not received well by others?_





I don't care why people lie to one another. I know the intent behind the lies, but looking at them, I find that they are actually an impediment to actual enjoyment of the holidays. I have spent decades lying about enjoying the gifts I have received. And what has that accomplished? Every year I get gifts I don't want, and have to lie and pretend I like them. The "polite lie" in this case just leads to an erroneous conclusion on the part of the giver that they made me happy, and they do more of the same at the next occassion, which breeds more lies. How is this a healthy or desirable situation? How does this enhance _anyone's_ enjoyment of the season? I resent the giver for ignoring my desires yet again, and the giver gets to have me put on a fake smile all day.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And if they had gotten you something, equally expensive, that you didn't want,. never had any desire to own, and told them you didn't want, exactly how treasured would that gift be?



Just as treasured.

But for me, it isn't the gift itself, but what it represents.

I still have the little set of 20 Hummel figurines.


> You care about the gift because _it reflected your desires_. They got you something _you wanted_. You appreciate the thought because they _took the time to think of what you wanted_.



Read the rest of that.

Read the watch.

I had a watch. I gave him my bootknife. He had one. He still has the one I gave him.


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## billd91 (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> And I hope he gets drunk, watches Beverley Hills Ninja, and laughs his ass off at it, and then THANKS YOU FOR IT!




That would be pretty sweet, wouldn't it?


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## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> That would be fine by me. I would rather get no gifts than get gifts given that clearly have limited thought behind them.




Yet by making them choose off of a list they have absolutely NO thought put behind them.


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## marshmallow (Dec 6, 2005)

You've been getting "bad" gifts for _ten years_ ??

Sounds like you don't know how to like something that's not on your list, to me.  I'm wondering if you would even try to like something not on your list, and that's sad.  Certainly you might be capable of liking things that aren't on your list, and sometimes when people give you something it's to share something they like with you (especially  movies or CDs.)  It doesn't mean that the gift is about them; it might mean they want to give you the enjoyment of it as much as the thing itself.  But you're being so stubborn you won't see that.


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## Regdar (Dec 6, 2005)

Regdar suggests we are wrong and he is merely a 

Special one of these


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> You claim it's everyone else's fault, and that we are all in the wrong, for believing that it's more than just the gift, it's the feeling behind it.




And if your gift had feeling behind it, you would get the recipient what they wanted, not what you want to give them. Getting them a gift you want puts you, the giver at the center of the situation - and eliminates any possibility that your gift is actually motivated by generosity. It is motivated by your desires, not the desires of the recipient, which would be paramount if you were truly generous.

You perpetuate a lie. How is that in the Christmas spirit?


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No, I just don't like surprises.
> 
> I find comfort in people actually getting gifts they want to have.
> 
> I don't care why people lie to one another. I know the intent behind the lies, but looking at them, I find that they are actually an impediment to actual enjoyment of the holidays. I have spent decades lying about enjoying the gifts I have received. And what has that accomplished? Every year I get gifts I don't want, and have to lie and pretend I like them. The "polite lie" in this case just leads to an erroneous conclusion on the part of the giver that they made me happy, and they do more of the same at the next occassion, which breeds more lies. How is this a healthy or desirable situation? How does this enhance _anyone's_ enjoyment of the season? I resent the giver for ignoring my desires yet again, and the giver gets to have me put on a fake smile all day.




Thank you, that confirms some suspicions.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> Yet by making them choose off of a list they have absolutely NO thought put behind them.




No, the thought is "he wants this, I care enough about him to get what he wants, regardless of whether I agree with his tastes or not".

My wife dislikes _The Lord of the Rings_, yet every year for three years she bought me the special extended edition of the movies. Because she knows I like them. I don't like Danielle Steele novels, but every year I get her at least one, becasue I know she does.

That is thought behind a gift: placing the recipient's likes and desires above your own.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Maybe he's giving you a pen that you will strive not to lose, that you will care enough about to keep track of, and in doing that, you'll always have one nearby.




This was my first thought. If Storm Raven cared about his father, he would take care of the pen and use the pen, because it reminded him of his father and his generosity.


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## Einan (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Instead, he is going to be getting _Beverley Hills Ninja_, a movie I know he hates. Because it makes me feel good to get him something that I want to give him, and not something he actually wants.





Wow.  I figured, hey, maybe the guy's just being misunderstood.  Maybe I'll reach out a hand and try to help him reconcile with his dad.  Maybe it'll do him some good.

My dad died ten years ago.  I was seventeen at the time.  I never got to know him as an adult, just as a parent.  I regret not being able to call him up.  I regret not being able to get really bad gifts from him.  I miss the dickens out of him.  

I hope that this jerk persona is just that: a persona.  I sincerely hope you actually appreciate the fact that you're a lucky person to have enough food to eat and to be able to get bad gifts from your parents.  

Einan


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## PirateMary (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No, I just don't like surprises.
> 
> [/i]
> 
> ...




I resent you for ever starting this thread.  I have never in my life read such ridiculous arguments for justification of selfishness.  Does it really hurt anyone to fake a smile and say thank you once a year.  No. It doesn't. It might hurt you but if you pull that stick out of your bum you might actually take some pleasure in seeing the eyes of the giver light up when they receive that pathetic thank-you.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

marshmallow said:
			
		

> You've been getting "bad" gifts for _ten years_ ??
> 
> Sounds like you don't know how to like something that's not on your list, to me.  I'm wondering if you would even try to like something not on your list, and that's sad.  Certainly you might be capable of liking things that aren't on your list, and sometimes when people give you something it's to share something they like with you (especially  movies or CDs.)




Oh, I like things on my list, but here are some of the gifts that have been handed my way the last couple years:

_National Lampoon's Crhsitmas Vacation_
_The Waterboy_
An action figure of John Goodman from _Blues Brothers 2000_
A sweater vest (I never wear sweater vests), and dislike them
A set of rubber shoe covers
A revolving tie rack (I have a tie rack, a nice one, and the giver knew this)
A ceramic hedgehog footscraper
A set of ceramic frogs

Now, go back and look at my list. It has been in that vein for the last couple years. How could you extrapolate from my list that I would like _any_ of those things?


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And if your gift had feeling behind it, you would get the recipient what they wanted, not what you want to give them.



Why should I even get them a gift. It isn't a gift if you give them exactly what they want. I might as well just hand them the money.

Sorry, it's my choice what to give them. I still believe in the old saw "Never look a gift horse in the mouth" and the sentiments behind that saying.



> Getting them a gift you want puts you, the giver at the center of the situation - and eliminates any possibility that your gift is actually motivated by generosity.



Really? I find that interesting that you believe that it makes the giver the center of attention. A gift is meant to put you a little in the attention circle, by saying: "I cared enough to get THIS for you."



> It is motivated by your desires, not the desires of the recipient, which would be paramount if you were truly generous.



Not true. Wholly motivated only by the desires of the recipiant is called catering to someone. Giving a gift doesn't mean catering to thier desires.

Just writing a list of what you want can be construed as selfish and childish. Rather than enjoying what the CHOOSE to give you, you are demanding that they give you a few things.

Which makes you the center of attention, and the selfish one.

It's like the fat kid in the video game ilse screaming that if he doesn't get Madden 2006 he'll hold his breath till he pisses his pants.

He's selfish and pathetic.



> You perpetuate a lie.



How?



> How is that in the Christmas spirit?



By sharing what little I have with someone, that is the spirit of Christmas. It's more than just gifts, it's a lot things.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> This was my first thought. If Storm Raven cared about his father, he would take care of the pen and use the pen, because it reminded him of his father and his generosity.




I already had an expensive pen. I lost it, almost immediately. I said "never get me another expensive pen, I will probably lose it, and be concerned about losing it until I do". He got me a pen. Sure I would try to care for it, but I know myself. I'll put it down somewhere and forget it, because I do that with small objects like pens. I don't actually carry a cell phone around with me for that very reason.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Dec 6, 2005)

I am forced to conclude, as Storm Raven already has, that his family actively dislikes him and does not want to get him the things he wants. This makes me a little bit sad for him.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Einan said:
			
		

> Wow.  I figured, hey, maybe the guy's just being misunderstood.  Maybe I'll reach out a hand and try to help him reconcile with his dad.  Maybe it'll do him some good.
> 
> My dad died ten years ago.  I was seventeen at the time.  I never got to know him as an adult, just as a parent.  I regret not being able to call him up.  I regret not being able to get really bad gifts from him.  I miss the dickens out of him.




If he's going to get me gifts I don't want, why should I take his desires into consideration when I'm getting him a gift? Everyone in the thread has been telling me that it is the giver's desires that are the most important, and that the recipient should be happy to get whatever the giver deigns to bestow upon him. I think he needs crappy Chris Farley movies. if his desires don't count (you know, like the book he said he wanted), why should I get it for him. I mean, if I'm just going to get him a book he wants, I should just hand him the cash.


----------



## marshmallow (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> _National Lampoon's Crhsitmas Vacation_
> _The Waterboy_
> An action figure of John Goodman from _Blues Brothers 2000_
> A sweater vest (I never wear sweater vests), and dislike them
> ...




Did you even watch the movies?  Then how do you know if you like them or not?  Maybe the person who knew you had a tie rack thought you might like this one better?  Maybe the person who bought you the sweater vest thought you'd look sharp in one if you'd give it a try?

You just never know if you might end up liking or being able to use something.  A few years ago I got a serving platter for Christmas that I didn't particularly like or think I'd ever use, and it's been in the basement, until just a few weeks ago it turned out to be the PERFECT size and shape for an appetizer I brought to a party.  

Gifts are gifts.  They are not an obligation.  I'm wondering how much of this "hating gifts" is really hurt feelings that your relatives either don't know you well enough to "know" what you want or won't listen to you.  

But I will tell you this:  your attitude makes all the difference in whether you like a gift or not.


----------



## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Many people think that the poor starving masses of the third world are appreciative of help when people try to give it. But the blunt truth is that many are not. Many are angry because of their own helplessness, and the fact that you represent concrete evidence of their helplessness. Many are not only not appreciative, but downright hostile because of this. It insults their strength as a person to accept aid from you, especially since you come from a culture that they see as a historical oppressor. People who do relief work in third world countries expecting to feel gratitude and appreciation are often sorely disappointed. You have to do the work for its own sake, not for any appreciation those you help will give you. If that comes, it is a bonus.





the key is not to go for gratitude and appreciation. just go. be one of them. live with them. show them you are human just like them

diaglo "whose wife worked for the Nica govt while our govt paid to kill her friend" Ooi


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Why should I even get them a gift. It isn't a gift if you give them exactly what they want. I might as well just hand them the money.




If you get me something I don't want, you may as well not even get me a gift. You didn't think about me when you got the gift, you thought about yourself - and what you wanted me to have.



> _Really? I find that interesting that you believe that it makes the giver the center of attention. A gift is meant to put you a little in the attention circle, by saying: "I cared enough to get THIS for you."_





More like "*I* cared enough to get you something *I* wanted you to have, nevermind what *you* actually want." With that sentiment, just count me out. You keep your money and your false generosity.



> _How?_





Because you perpetuate the lie that somehow, getting someone somthing you think they shoudl have, rather than what you know they want is being generous. In point of fact, it is the epitome of selfishness.


----------



## PirateMary (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> If he's going to get me gifts I don't want, why should I take his desires into consideration when I'm getting him a gift? Everyone in the thread has been telling me that it is the giver's desires that are the most important, and that the recipient should be happy to get whatever the giver deigns to bestow upon him. I think he needs crappy Chris Farley movies. if his desires don't count (you know, like the book he said he wanted), why should I get it for him. I mean, if I'm just going to get him a book he wants, I should just hand him the cash.



You don't have to take anyone's desires into consideration.  Don't put up with that bull.  When are they gonna realize it's all about you. You decide what gifts you get, you decide what gifts they'll get.  Hell, send me a list of the gifts you think I should get too since no one but you knows the proper way to gift.


----------



## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> How something like "I'd prefer to not receive any gifts this year.  I'm lucky to have all the things I need and want.  If your holday spirit compels you to spend money on me, please share that spirit by making a donation to [Storm Raven's favorite charity] in my name.  Happy Holidays."



best suggestion so far.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

marshmallow said:
			
		

> Did you even watch the movies?  Then how do you know if you like them or not?  Maybe the person who knew you had a tie rack thought you might like this one better?  Maybe the person who bought you the sweater vest thought you'd look sharp in one if you'd give it a try?




I have previously seen _Christmas Vacation_. It was eh, and I don't usually like Chevy Chase. The giver knew this. They knew I didn't really like the movie.

I hate Adam Sandler. I have said, never get me an Adam Sandler movie. I have seen chunks of _The waterboy_, more than anough to know I hate the movie.

The tie rack purchased was chinsier (by far) than the one I already have. The giver knew this. He got it as a floor sample, and it was cheap.

I don't like sweater vests, and don't wear them. The giver knew this.



> _Gifts are gifts.  They are not an obligation.  I'm wondering how much of this "hating gifts" is really hurt feelings that your relatives either don't know you well enough to "know" what you want or won't listen to you._




They don't listen. That bothers me. if you are going to get me something I don't like, don't bother. I won't be offended. If you do get me something I don't like, I'm going to return it or give it away.


----------



## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Caring about someone is putting their desires above your own.




I have a friend I care about.  This friend does drugs, to the point of abusing them and hurting himself.  His desire:  to keep doing them.  My desire?  To see him stop hurting himself.

Does this mean I don't care about him?


----------



## eabha (Dec 6, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> I am forced to conclude, as Storm Raven already has, that his family actively dislikes him and does not want to get him the things he wants. This makes me a little bit sad for him.



My mother's former in-laws so despised her she once received a used toilet brush as a Christmas present from them. _Seriously_.

Sure, we laugh hysterically at this story _now_, but at the time I felt terrible for my mom. However, all that pales in comparision to some of what I have read in this thread. This whole thing is just sad and in no way helping me get into the spirit of the season.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Oh heck, this is too good to leave...plus, I have a civilized question that I still haven't seen answered.

SR, have you asked your father why he got you the pen?  Find that out, then come back and let us know.  I am interested in the answer.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

PirateMary said:
			
		

> You don't have to take anyone's desires into consideration.




That is what several posters in this thread have been saying. It doesn't matter what the recipient wants. It only matters what the giver wants to give. For the recipient to voice an opinion on what he'd like to get is selfish and evil. The giver should send him whatever he thinks "gives a piece of himself", no matter what the recipient wants.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> If you get me something I don't want, you may as well not even get me a gift. You didn't think about me when you got the gift, you thought about yourself - and what you wanted me to have.
> 
> [/i]
> 
> ...



I hereby put forth the motion that from here on out, Christmas be referred to as:

Give Storm Raven What He Wants Day!


You just don't get it, do you?

What was it that spoiled Christmas for you? Did you want Operation and your Grandma got you Risk? Did you want that Billy & the Boingers tape, and your Dad got you Brak's Greatest Hits?

What was it that made you decide that if it wasn't what you wanted, it wasn't worth your time and effort? That it should be all about what the reciever wants, not what the giver thinks that the recipeint might enjoy?

What was it that destroyed your joy in the Christmas holiday and your joy at recieving gifts?


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> That is what several posters in this thread have been saying. It doesn't matter what the recipient wants. It only matters what the giver wants to give. For the recipient to voice an opinion on what he'd like to get is selfish and evil. The giver should send him whatever he thinks "gives a piece of himself", no matter what the recipient wants.




No, making a wish list is not evil.  Being bitter and unforgiving about not getting what's on it, however, is the issue.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> SR, have you asked your father why he got you the pen?  Find that out, then come back and vent.  I am interested in the answer.




Because he is a pen geek and loves expensive pens. Thus, he concludes that I should love expensive pens, and if I don't, I will once I have one (again). I don't, and almost certainly never will. He doesn't understand this. He also doesn't understand why I would ever want _Firefly_ on DVD, so he concludes that I couldn't possibly actually want that, even though I have told him explicitly that I do.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Dec 6, 2005)

SR, if you're family and "friends" are actively getting things you don't like, has it ever made you wonder if maybe, just maybe, they don't like you all that much?  From this thread it could be your attitude, maybe it's a subtle way of getting you to change?  Although, in all honesty, I think you're reading waaaaay too much into the whole "the gifts are insulting since it isn't what I wanted" angle.


----------



## elforcelf (Dec 6, 2005)

Could you not just say lets just give cash?


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

SR, since you've said so many people give you gifts they know you don't like, have you thought, for one second, that these people really don't like you? And, if so, maybe you should think long and hard as to why they don't like you.


----------



## PirateMary (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> That is what several posters in this thread have been saying. It doesn't matter what the recipient wants. It only matters what the giver wants to give. For the recipient to voice an opinion on what he'd like to get is selfish and evil. The giver should send him whatever he thinks "gives a piece of himself", no matter what the recipient wants.



Voicing an opinion is not selfish and evil.  Tossing the piece of crap gift in the trash before it's even out of the box is selfish and evil.  Thinking their intent was to make you unhappy is selfish and evil.  Thinking that all the givers of the world have no one but themselves in mind is in itself selfish and evil.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> You just don't get it, do you?




I get it. I just reject your premise that somehow, even knowing what someone wants, you should feel free to get them something else entirely.



> _What was it that spoiled Christmas for you? Did you want Operation and your Grandma got you Risk? Did you want that Billy & the Boingers tape, and your Dad got you Brak's Greatest Hits?_





Have you not been reading this thread?


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Because he is a pen geek and loves expensive pens. Thus, he concludes that I should love expensive pens, and if I don't, I will once I have one (again). I don't, and almost certainly never will. He doesn't understand this. He also doesn't understand why I would ever want _Firefly_ on DVD, so he concludes that I couldn't possibly actually want that, even though I have told him explicitly that I do.




Did you come to this conclusion on your own, or did you ask him?  It obviously has had a profound affect on you, so maybe you should discuss this with him.  If you have talked to him, then I take your point as written.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

elforcelf said:
			
		

> Could you not just say lets just give cash?




My wife told everyone one year to just get me gift certificates. They didn't.


----------



## marshmallow (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> If you do get me something I don't like, I'm going to return it or give it away.




I'm going to tell you a secret:  This is true of almost every single person (except people who put stuff in the basement for two years in case they ever end up finding a use for it).  It's really not necessary to send out an email about it.  

It just really puzzles me that you can't seem to grasp that someone CAN put thought into a gift that wasn't on your list.  Sometimes people buy gifts thinking that because they enjoyed it, you might.  I really don't see how that's selfish - they want to make you happy. They might be wrong, but it doesn't make them inconsiderate or rude.

You keep saying "the giver knew this" and "the giver knew that."  Since we will never really know their side, we don't know how much of this is true and how much of it is warped by your perspective and biases.  But be careful of what you think you know about what other people know, and what are your assumptions about what other people know.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

I figured it out...

I know why you keep getting the gifts you get, Storm Raven.

It goes like this...

"Every time we get him something, he acts like an ungrateful little punk. He exchanges them, he throws them away, and he acts like we owe him a living. This year, let's get him... I KNOW! Let's get him a copy of Die Hard filmed with a camcorder in Vietnam and dubbed with Cantonese!"

I'm willing to bet that's half of it.

Same reason my last gift to my oldest brother delivered a nice 0.004 amp shock through the metallic wrapping paper to him.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Did you come to this conclusion on your own, or did you ask him?  It obviously has had a profound affect on you, so maybe you should discuss this with him.  If you have talked to him, then I take your point as written.




We have discussed this at length in other contexts. He considers it a terrible thing that I do not have an expensive pen, and that I do not want one. I told him I don't want one, and probably never will.


----------



## buzzard (Dec 6, 2005)

OK, for all you people who think SR is satan incarnate (which seems to be plenty of you). The popular sentiment here appears to be that the spirit of the gift matters more than the gift itself or the desires of the recipient. 

Is it OK if I give $20 is each of your names to the Church of Scientology because I think it will make for a better world?

buzzard


----------



## d20Dwarf (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Because he is a pen geek and loves expensive pens. Thus, he concludes that I should love expensive pens, and if I don't, I will once I have one (again). I don't, and almost certainly never will. He doesn't understand this. He also doesn't understand why I would ever want _Firefly_ on DVD, so he concludes that I couldn't possibly actually want that, even though I have told him explicitly that I do.




StormRaven,

I love pens as well. If you don't want the pen, would you please ship it to me? I'll even pay shipping.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Have you not been reading this thread?



Nope.

You didn't tell me what I wanted to hear, so why should I acknowledge what your saying?

You got some bad gifts. Grow up. Learn what the spirit of Christmas is, and since part of that is being grateful, I recommend you learn it quickly, your life will be a lot easier.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> OK, for all you people who think SR is satan incarnate (which seems to be plenty of you). The popular sentiment here appears to be that the spirit of the gift matters more than the gift itself or the desires of the recipient.
> 
> Is it OK if I give $20 is each of your names to the Church of Scientology because I think it will make for a better world?
> 
> buzzard




Go for it.  When you need the mailing address for the tax receipt, just let me know.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> OK, for all you people who think SR is satan incarnate (which seems to be plenty of you). The popular sentiment here appears to be that the spirit of the gift matters more than the gift itself or the desires of the recipient.
> 
> Is it OK if I give $20 is each of your names to the Church of Scientology because I think it will make for a better world?
> 
> buzzard



Sure.

Thanks man, for thinking of me. I didn't know you actually cared enough to give me a gift, and I find it odd you would give to them in my name, but thanks for the gift!

Man, now I have to get you something.

Seriously, you show me that you did that, in my name (Timothy Michael, BTW) I'll get you something.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I figured it out...
> 
> I know why you keep getting the gifts you get, Storm Raven.
> 
> ...




Did you read the part of the thread where I described the progression? I have tried to be very polite about this with my family for years. All it has gotten me is a pile of unwanted crap.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> We have discussed this at length in other contexts. He considers it a terrible thing that I do not have an expensive pen, and that I do not want one. I told him I don't want one, and probably never will.




Then I take your point.  You do realize, however, that he may also be thinking - "That ungrateful whelp, doesn't he realize that the pen is more of a gift from my heart than anything on his list?  He doesn't understand that if you care about someone then you appreciate the gifts that you are given."

There are, after all, two sides to most arguments.  His side is just as valid to him as yours is to you.  So, at this point it appears to be a game of "who blinks first".


----------



## marshmallow (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I get it. I just reject your premise that somehow, even knowing what someone wants, you should feel free to get them something else entirely.





The mind boggles.  It's a GIFT.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> StormRaven,
> 
> I love pens as well. If you don't want the pen, would you please ship it to me? I'll even pay shipping.




I may just regift it to my brother. He likes pens. I just have to double check that they didn't get him a pen too.


----------



## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Is it OK if I give $20 is each of your names to the Church of Scientology because I think it will make for a better world?



If you're actually doing it because you think it will make for a better world?  Absolutely.  Send me the tax receipt and I'll happily make a donation of equal amount to a charity I think makes for a better world.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Did you read the part of the thread where I described the progression? I have tried to be very polite about this with my family for years. All it has gotten me is a pile of unwanted crap.



No, I didn't read about the shoe rack or the travel bag, because it didn't say what I wanted it to say, making it a completely selfish post that I chose to ignore.

I also read where you described what youre getting your father.

I noticed a steady escalation.

So, what did you get them each year after you got what you considered a crappy gift?


----------



## marshmallow (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> OK, for all you people who think SR is satan incarnate (which seems to be plenty of you). The popular sentiment here appears to be that the spirit of the gift matters more than the gift itself or the desires of the recipient.
> 
> Is it OK if I give $20 is each of your names to the Church of Scientology because I think it will make for a better world?
> 
> buzzard




I might find it odd, but if it was truly done in a giving spirit, then yes.  It's a gift, not a paycheck for giving you the pleasure of knowing me.


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I may just regift it to my brother. He likes pens. I just have to double check that they didn't get him a pen too.




Or that your brother talks to your dad. If my dad knew I just regifted something like that to another person, he'd be hurt to say the least.


----------



## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> OK, for all you people who think SR is satan incarnate (which seems to be plenty of you). The popular sentiment here appears to be that the spirit of the gift matters more than the gift itself or the desires of the recipient.
> 
> Is it OK if I give $20 is each of your names to the Church of Scientology because I think it will make for a better world?
> 
> buzzard




Go for it.


----------



## marshmallow (Dec 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Or that your brother talks to your dad. If my dad knew I just regifted something like that to another person, he'd be hurt to say the least.




Other people have feelings?


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> If you're actually doing it because you think it will make for a better world?  Absolutely.  Send me the tax receipt and I'll happily make a donation of equal amount to a charity I think makes for a better world.




Good plan.  In fact, I've just donated $600 to the local humane society because I think it'll make for a better world.

I didn't know all your names though, so I used my own.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

marshmallow said:
			
		

> You keep saying "the giver knew this" and "the giver knew that."  Since we will never really know their side, we don't know how much of this is true and how much of it is warped by your perspective and biases.  But be careful of what you think you know about what other people know, and what are your assumptions about what other people know.




In these cases, I know they knew. Because I had previously told them, or it had come up in other contexts that delivered the information directly to them.

For example, the tie rack. The giver helped me fix my current wooden tie rack to my closet wall. We even talked about the price of the item when we were doing this. He couldn't have _not_ known when he got me the chinsy plastic one.

For example, the sweater vest. My sister in law (who got me the gift) had remarked at one point (Thanksgiving that year I think) that her husband looked good in sweater vests and she thought I should get some. I told her that I don't like them (for me) and don't wear them.

How much am I assuming here?


----------



## Kanegrundar (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> OK, for all you people who think SR is satan incarnate (which seems to be plenty of you). The popular sentiment here appears to be that the spirit of the gift matters more than the gift itself or the desires of the recipient.
> 
> Is it OK if I give $20 is each of your names to the Church of Scientology because I think it will make for a better world?
> 
> buzzard



 As long as you believe that it's the right place to send money to, then thanks.  (My name is Giles Kiser, BTW, in case you do do that.)  You don't mind if I send a donation in your name to the American Heart Association?

Kane


----------



## buzzard (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Sure.
> 
> Thanks man, for thinking of me. I didn't know you actually cared enough to give me a gift, and I find it odd you would give to them in my name, but thanks for the gift!
> 
> ...





Hmm, and to think I imagine I had picked an organization which was considered loathesome enough by most to have people get my point. However were I to actually offer a thing of this sort it would be a gift which actually suits my disposition. I could shell out a few bucks to the NRA in some people's name. Heck, I'd probably even be civil enough to send it to the education branch which is tax deductable and not involved in lobbying. 

In the interest of money where my mouth  is,  I will send $20 to the NRA education fund (Eddie Eagle and all that gun safety jazz) in the name of the first five of you naysayers to drop me an email. 

Let me add one detail. I don't want a gift in return to the charity of your choice. I'll pass. 

buzzard


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

You know, that bit about making a donation in the name of a charity, and giving the slip to you, as a gift, is one of the biggest bunch of BS anyone has come up with.

A lot of corporations have replaced Christmas bonuses with this.

To me, it's impersonal, and smacks of forwarding ones own political views.

And it's not even really a gift.

It wasn't meant to benifit or delight someone, it's done because nobody would ever DARE complain that a donation was made to charity.

See, if Storm Raven was complaining that every year his father made a contribution to MANBLA or something in his name, and that it not only offended him, but wasn't even really a gift, I'd definately be on his side.

Hey, Storm Raven, any gifts you don't want, donate them to the local Salvation Army in your Father's name, and give him the slip as a Christmas present.

That'll make your point AND he can't complain, because you gave to charity.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> So, what did you get them each year after you got what you considered a crappy gift?




Usually, I get them something they ask for. You see, I practice what I preach.


----------



## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

eabha said:
			
		

> This whole thing is just sad and in no way helping me get into the spirit of the season.




Actually, I'd like to thank Storm Raving for starting this thread.

It has made me see how lucky I am to have a family that cares about me, even though sometimes they don't give me what I want, but rather what I need.  It has made me see that they will always be there for me when I need them, even though I may not want them.

So, thank you, Storm Raven, for this thread.  I did not want it, and it certainly wasn't on any list, but thank you anyway.

EK, who will be grateful for a loving family this Christmas.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I may just regift it to my brother. He likes pens. I just have to double check that they didn't get him a pen too.




If they did, though, just such a pen is on my Christmas list, so you needn't worry. We'll consider it a Public Santa, which will help you participate in the season without being surprised. After all, I already have your list.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Usually, I get them something they ask for. You see, I practice what I preach.



Then don't complain, don't come off like you did.

You come off as "I didn't get what I want!"

You should have stated: "Every year, I buy them stuff from thier lists, and every year, they blow my list off to get me gifts I didn't really want."

Don't give them jack this year then. Or give them other things, not revenge gifts, but things you think they might like.

If they bug you about them, tell them: "It's in the giving, not in the getting."


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

marshmallow said:
			
		

> The mind boggles.  It's a GIFT.




And if you get me something I don't actually want, it is a _crappy gift_.

Why we decided that you should be grateful that gave you something you didn't want, told them you didn't want, and will likely never want is the astonishing part.

if you aren't going to bother to get me something I want, don't bother to get me a gift. It's not a gift, it is a bag of crap you decided to hand to me so I would pretend you were nice.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> Actually, I'd like to thank Storm Raving for starting this thread.
> 
> It has made me see how lucky I am to have a family that cares about me, even though sometimes they don't give me what I want, but rather what I need.  It has made me see that they will always be there for me when I need them, even though I may not want them.
> 
> ...



Ditto.

It wasn't on my list on the fridge, I didn't want it, but I do appreciate it.

My daughter just came in the door with the world's ugliest clay ashtray to wrap up for her uncle. She made it herself in arts and crafts class.

I'll bet he'll appreciate it.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Hey, Storm Raven, any gifts you don't want, donate them to the local Salvation Army in your Father's name, and give him the slip as a Christmas present.




Gifts that I do not (or cannot) return usually end up going to Goodwill. I have enough clutter in my house already without adding to the pile with stuff I didn't want to begin with.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> not revenge gifts




This is important.


----------



## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Actually, just another thought:

I can't wait for the day the SR stuffs up and gets his son something that he doesn't really want, only to see his son dump it in the trash.


----------



## marshmallow (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> In these cases, I know they knew. Because I had previously told them, or it had come up in other contexts that delivered the information directly to them.
> 
> For example, the tie rack. The giver helped me fix my current wooden tie rack to my closet wall. We even talked about the price of the item when we were doing this. He couldn't have _not_ known when he got me the chinsy plastic one.




The cost has nothing to do with it, nor does plastic vs. wooden.  Maybe he thought that it was inconvenient to have the ties at the back of the closet or something, and the new one would make it easier to get at your ties.  You are really ascribing the worst possible motivations to people.  I prefer to assume the best about them.  Maybe I'm a Pollyanna, but then again I don't hate Christmas.



> For example, the sweater vest. My sister in law (who got me the gift) had remarked at one point (Thanksgiving that year I think) that her husband looked good in sweater vests and she thought I should get some. I told her that I don't like them (for me) and don't wear them.




Remember before when I said, "maybe someone thought you might look sharp in them if you gave them a try?"  I bet you a dollar that's what happened here.  She probably thought to herself, "if he'd only try them he'd like them" and therefore got you the gift.  She was wrong, but I think her intentions were good.  And who knows, maybe there was a small chance that if you'd tried it on you'd have changed your mind and now have an all-sweater vest wardrobe.



> How much am I assuming here?




I think you're assuming a lot about their motivations.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Hmm, and to think I imagine I had picked an organization which was considered loathesome enough by most to have people get my point. However were I to actually offer a thing of this sort it would be a gift which actually suits my disposition. I could shell out a few bucks to the NRA in some people's name. Heck, I'd probably even be civil enough to send it to the education branch which is tax deductable and not involved in lobbying.
> 
> In the interest of money where my mouth  is,  I will send $20 to the NRA education fund (Eddie Eagle and all that gun safety jazz) in the name of the first five of you naysayers to drop me an email.
> 
> ...




Your examples are not bad, but there are a couple factors that you are not able to control:

1. Some of us really don't complain about gifts (I would not like the gift you gave as an example, but I would not complain about it).

2. SR has some of the posters' hackles up, so they aren't going to support his position by agreeing with your example, regardless of what they would do in real life (in fact, there may be some who would have complained before this thread, but now will not complain because of the lessons learned here).


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And if you get me something I don't actually want, it is a _crappy gift_.



And here I was about to come in on your end.

Man, did you just shoot yourself in the foot.

No, it's not a crappy gift. A crappy gift is getting deployed to the Middle East. A crappy gift is being given a world cruise when you're serving 15 years in the joint. A crappy gift is a set of hair combs when your hair all fell out from chemotherapy.

It's a thoughtless gift, what you are referring to, yes.



> Why we decided that you should be grateful that gave you something you didn't want, told them you didn't want, and will likely never want is the astonishing part.



It comes from earlier days, when people were happy with what was given to them. When the fact that someone had enough to spare, be it time, effort, or money, to actually buy something, was enough.



> if you aren't going to bother to get me something I want, don't bother to get me a gift. It's not a gift, it is a bag of crap you decided to hand to me so I would pretend you were nice.



Hey, the Grinch called...

He finds your views intriguing and wants to subscribe to your newsletter.

He also wants to know if you will be holding any seminars he can attend.


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> I can't wait for the day the SR stuffs up and gets his son something that he doesn't really want, only to see his son dump it in the trash.




_Cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon. Little boy blue and the man in the moon...._


----------



## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> _Cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon. Little boy blue and the man in the moon...._




Appropriate


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> For example, the tie rack. The giver helped me fix my current wooden tie rack to my closet wall. We even talked about the price of the item when we were doing this. He couldn't have _not_ known when he got me the chinsy plastic one.



Hmmm, that wooden tie rack he has keeps falling apart. I'll get him a better one that he can put somewhere else. He'll like that.



> For example, the sweater vest. My sister in law (who got me the gift) had remarked at one point (Thanksgiving that year I think) that her husband looked good in sweater vests and she thought I should get some. I told her that I don't like them (for me) and don't wear them.



So she figured she'd get you something she knew you'd never get for yourself, on the off chance that you might actually TRY something new. You could have liked it, or actually found yourself in a situation to need to wear one for some unknown reason.

What a horrible person.


> How much am I assuming here?



Quite a bit.

That glass is half FULL also.

Dude, you're LOOKING for reasons to be unhappy.


----------



## marshmallow (Dec 6, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> If they did, though, just such a pen is on my Christmas list, so you needn't worry. We'll consider it a Public Santa, which will help you participate in the season without being surprised. After all, I already have your list.




Actually, this isn't a bad idea.  Since you're planning to lose, regift, or donate it to charity anyway.  And you know it will end up with someone who really wants it.


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> I can't wait for the day the SR stuffs up and gets his son something that he doesn't really want, only to see his son dump it in the trash.




Here is the amazing, hard to figure out way that I avoid that:

1. I ask him what he wants for Christmas, and he makes a list.
2. I get him something from his list.

Wow. That's hard.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> If they did, though, just such a pen is on my Christmas list, so you needn't worry. We'll consider it a Public Santa, which will help you participate in the season without being surprised. After all, I already have your list.




Clearly the pen is on d20Dwarf's list, and is not on your brother's (or you, being the assiduous list-follower that you are would know).  Since you'll only otherwise give the pen away to Goodwill anyhow, send it to d20Dwarf, and let him make a nice donation to Goodwill instead.

Everyone wins.


----------



## buzzard (Dec 6, 2005)

Come on people, three more NRA donations for the taking, just send that email. 

buzzard


----------



## Storm Raven (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Hmmm, that wooden tie rack he has keeps falling apart. I'll get him a better one that he can put somewhere else. He'll like that.




It has never been falling apart. It is actually one of the most durable things in the house.



> _So she figured she'd get you something she knew you'd never get for yourself, on the off chance that you might actually TRY something new. You could have liked it, or actually found yourself in a situation to need to wear one for some unknown reason._





"You should wear these"
"No, I don't like them"
"I'll get it for you anyway"

I'm sorry, but that's just rude. Getting someone something you know they don't want cannot be described as anything but rude.


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Here is the amazing, hard to figure out way that I avoid that:
> 
> 1. I ask him what he wants for Christmas, and he makes a list.
> 2. I get him something from his list.
> ...




It's also cold and impersonal if that's all you do. Anyone can get something from a list. Anyone. Yes, by all means, get him things on the list but also get him things not on the list. You know your son. Get him things you think he'd like. Otherwise, what's the point of Christmas? Why just  have a "gift giving Tuesday?"


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Come on people, three more NRA donations for the taking, just send that email.
> 
> buzzard




You can send one on my behalf, but use your own name.  It won't help me up here in Canada anyhow, and I do support at least the gun safety education efforts of the NRA, if not their rabid lobbying.

edit: spelling is good


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

For my Christmas good deed, let me know when you're going to ship it, and I'll pay the shipping on the pen, if you send it to d20Dwarf.

We can use UPS or FedEx, your choice.

After all, it's on his list, and you don't want it.

For my Christmas good deed, I'll pay shipping.

Hey, PWD, you want to pony up insurance?


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> It has never been falling apart. It is actually one of the most durable things in the house.



But you said he was helping you fix it.

Hmmm...

Perhaps he was just saying you were too cheap to buy a new one, so he'd do it for you.


> "You should wear these"
> "No, I don't like them"
> "I'll get it for you anyway"
> 
> I'm sorry, but that's just rude. Getting someone something you know they don't want cannot be described as anything but rude.



Then don't buy off of her list.

Buy her...

A dustvac.


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Dec 6, 2005)

Holy Freakin' Smokes!  This thread is outta control!



			
				Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I imagine your family would just be astounded by your display of humanity, caring, and thoughtfullness behind this statement.



 What humanity and caring?  Storm Raven's an attorney.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> For my Christmas good deed, let me know when you're going to ship it, and I'll pay the shipping on the pen, if you send it to d20Dwarf.
> 
> We can use UPS or FedEx, your choice.
> 
> ...




Lol - I would, let me check on how the plastic's doing after Xmas shopping and humane society endowments.


----------



## Eternalknight (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Here is the amazing, hard to figure out way that I avoid that:
> 
> 1. I ask him what he wants for Christmas, and he makes a list.
> 2. I get him something from his list.
> ...




Ok, let's all take a deep breath and look at this:

Storm Raven:  you are have been getting things for xmas for years that you do not want.  You are miffed that this is occuring, because it seems to you (and, yes, it SEEMS TO YOU - it may or may not be true) that they are putting little thought into it.  On the first page, you also mentioned that you would prefer them not to waste their money by buying you something that you did not want.  

Me:  If the only reason you were complaining was because of the wasting money thing, I would call you a noble fellow for thinking of your family, especially because they are buying you expensive things you do not want.  But you have been calling them thoughtless and insulting, which I cannot agree with.  In fact, the only other thing I disagree with is the way you are going about this; as I stated, it just comes of as shallow and snobbish, a view that others also share.  You may not be a shallow and snobbish person; but what you wrote gives people that impression.

My advice:  Don;t send the email.  Reword it.  Please.  Say something like:  "Although you have the best of intentions, please do not waste money on expensive gifts for me this year, unless it is something on my list.  I would not want you wasting money on things that I really do not want or need, so please save your money.  If you insist on not getting me something on the list, please make it small and inexpensive."

Can we agree on that compromise?


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

How about a short and simple letter stating "Just send all your gifts driectly to d20Dwarf, since I won't like any of them"?

Cut out the middle man completely.


----------



## buzzard (Dec 6, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> You can send one on my behalf, but use your own name.  It won't help me up here in Canada anyhow, and I do support at least the gun safety education efforts of the NRA, if not their rabid lobbying.
> 
> edit: spelling is good




Actually I'm going with people who can get the receipt. If I am going to make a point, I'd rather be able to have it verfied. I don't want people thinking I'm blowing smoke up nether regions. 

Just got my last taker. 

The donations will be to the NRA Foundation. After some looking that is the place which directly funds the educational efforts. The NRA is the largest provider of gun safety training in the U.S.

recipients are:
Kanegrundar
Warlord Ralts
D20 Dwarf
marshmallow
reveal

once I have their addresses, the donations will be sent. 

buzzard


----------



## reveal (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Actually I'm going with people who can get the receipt. If I am going to make a point, I'd rather be able to have it verfied. I don't want people thinking I'm blowing smoke up nether regions.
> 
> Just got my last taker.
> 
> ...




You need mailing addresses or e-mail addresses?


----------



## buzzard (Dec 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> You need mailing addresses or e-mail addresses?




If you want a tax receipt, I'll need your snail mail address. 

buzzard


----------



## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Actually I'm going with people who can get the receipt. If I am going to make a point, I'd rather be able to have it verfied. I don't want people thinking I'm blowing smoke up nether regions.



Of course, "to make a point" is a slightly different motivation for the gift than you originally proposed ("to make for a better world").


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> Of course, "to make a point" is a slightly different motivation for the gift than you originally proposed ("to make for a better world").




Without any points, the world would just be round, and roll all over the place...


----------



## buzzard (Dec 6, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> Of course, "to make a point" is a slightly different motivation for the gift than you originally proposed ("to make for a better world").




My point being that I don't lie or make things up. 

Of course maybe you didn't see it that way. Or maybe the fact that it is a gift to a worthy cause is irrelevant because you don't like why I did it. Do you think, objectively, gun safety doesn't make for a better world?

buzzard


----------



## d20Dwarf (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> My point being that I don't lie or make things up.
> 
> Of course maybe you didn't see it that way. Or maybe the fact that it is a gift to a worthy cause is irrelevant because you don't like why I did it. Do you think, objectively, gun safety doesn't make for a better world?
> 
> buzzard




I, for one, will be grateful to you at the end of each day during which I remain lead-free.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> My point being that I don't lie or make things up.
> 
> Of course maybe you didn't see it that way. Or maybe the fact that it is a gift to a worthy cause is irrelevant because you don't like why I did it. Do you think, objectively, gun safety doesn't make for a better world?
> 
> buzzard



Eh, it's the thought that counts.

And if it's for a charity, I'll take "I'll show those bastards! I'll do it anyway!" over "Eh, why bother." any day.

At least buzzard has the guts to back up what he says.



Hey, Storm Raven, drop me an email or something, and let me know if you're actually going to regift that pen to d20Dwarf, so I can pay for shipping and handling.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> At least buzzard has the guts to back up what he says.




Indeed, respect to buzzard.


----------



## WayneLigon (Dec 6, 2005)

I have to agree in most part with SR, though I think the email itself could be significantly reworded to be less blunt. If people have been giving him stuff for years that he has stated time and again that he doesn't want or need, that smacks of either some serious thoughtlessness on their part... _or _ they're purposefully doing it to piss him off depending on what's happened in the past. 

Or, they could be like my Mom was. Most of what I would have wanted was pretty obvious, but because it was 'that fantasy stuff', she purposefully wouldn't get it for me 'because you have too much of that crap anyway'. She took zero interest in what I was interested in. There could be a lot of passive-aggressive stuff going on there we know nothing about. Kinda sounds like it to me, at least. 

I'm hard to buy for as well. Usually, though, my interests run towards the same as the gaming group's. Some broad hints are usually given to me: Do you own such and such book? No? Well.. I don't think you should get it, then, *wink wink*. Or, they know what's on the shelf and what's missing.

Me, I agonize trying to get the perfect gift. I try to ferret out what people are looking for and can't find, or something that matches their interests as closely as I can divine even if it's not an interest of mine. Sometimes, I have to ask bluntly 'do you have that?'. 

Most of the time I get a direct hit, because I take an interest in what their interests are and file away little statements. 'Oh, I love wolves' becomes a little ceramic wolf figurine at Xmas (unless some careful questioning reveals that they collect little wolf figurines - then it's too much of a chance of duplicating something they have or getting something inferior. In that case, it might be a picture, or plushy, or something in that vein.

Also: Amazon's wish list sharing feature. A boon to Xmas giving.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

SR, another question.  Can you accept the possibility that your family doesn't agree with you, but still cares?  It just appears to me that this can be taken a few different ways:

1. If they cared they'd get me what I want, therefore they don't care.

2. I should adjust my attitude, because they obviously care and I am being greedy.

3. They don't have the same opinion as I do, but they do care, therefore our impass isn't a right vs. wrong.  I will have to accept that this will be a point of contention until one of us adjusts our attitude (and if you don't want to be the one who adjusts, then don't, but it doesn't mean that they have to change either - my biggest beef is with the intolerant stance you appear to take).

I am just wondering, if #2 isn't a possibility (hey, if these are your convictions, then who am I to make you change), can you at least accept #3 as a possibility.  It just doesn't make sense to turn it into a them vs. us situation, as you immediately paint your own family as the "bad guy" and you as the "good guy".  As I have stated before, I don't like surprises and am not real hyped on Christmas, but when I get something that I don't like it doesn't cause me to take an opposing view of the gift giver.

I guess that my gut tells me that your friends and family may be just as vehemently opposed to your viewpoint, and therefore the concept of changing their attitudes in this matter would feel just as wrong to them.


----------



## devilbat (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And I'd just throw your gifts in the trash. If you are going to get me crap, expect it to be treated like crap.





  You're attitude is something else, man.  I hope you have a fantastic Christmas.


----------



## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> My point being that I don't lie or make things up.



My apologies.  I misinterpreted, based on this:


			
				buzzard said:
			
		

> Hmm, and to think I imagine I had picked an organization which was considered loathesome enough by most to have people get my point.





			
				buzzard said:
			
		

> Of course maybe you didn't see it that way. Or maybe the fact that it is a gift to a worthy cause is irrelevant because you don't like why I did it. Do you think, objectively, gun safety doesn't make for a better world?



A worthy cause is a worthy cause, but the intent behind it definitely impacts whether it's an appreciated gift.  "I made this gift to a worthy cause in your name because you inspire me to do good things" is very different from "I made this gift to a worthy cause in your name because I hope it will make your wife see how great I am and finally leave you and run away with me" - not that I think either of these was your actual motiviation.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but*, in my opinion,* that's just rude. Getting someone something you know they don't want cannot be described*, by me,*  as anything but rude.




As human beings without ESP, we cannot know the motives of other people.  We can only hope that people tell us the truth and use deduction/reasoning/evidence to ascribe motives to others.  There are many people who are unintentionally rude.  There are many people who take offense where none was meant.  There are many people who disguise their true motives.

With that in mind, I added, what I felt to be missing text, to your statement.


----------



## Dingleberry (Dec 6, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> As human beings without ESP, we cannot know the motives of other people.



Having ESP would really take the fun out of both giving and receiving gifts.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> Having ESP would really take the fun out of both giving and receiving gifts.




Oh, it would take the fun out of a lot more than that (unless I was the only one with ESP - I guess that since this is an RPG site, I should specify that I am refering to Mind Reading...  ).


----------



## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Come on people, three more NRA donations for the taking, just send that email.
> 
> buzzard




You can make one in my name


----------



## PirateMary (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> OK, for all you people who think SR is satan incarnate (which seems to be plenty of you). The popular sentiment here appears to be that the spirit of the gift matters more than the gift itself or the desires of the recipient.
> 
> Is it OK if I give $20 is each of your names to the Church of Scientology because I think it will make for a better world?
> 
> buzzard



What is this?  Clever, I think not.


----------



## Torm (Dec 6, 2005)

It seems to me that the focus should be on what you're _giving_, rather than worrying so much about what you're _getting_. If you _believe_ in Christmas, you've already gotten a bigger Gift than anyone is going to give you now, anyway, right? (Hope that isn't too religious, but the name of the thread does include _Christ_mas, after all.  )

And besides, the best revenge is making people feel like crap because of how much cooler, more personal, and better thought out your present to them is than their present to you.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Come on people, three more NRA donations for the taking, just send that email.
> 
> buzzard




I hate guns, so sign me up...


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Dec 6, 2005)

Storm Raven, what does the preacher at your church think of your view on Christmas?


----------



## Crothian (Dec 6, 2005)

SR, it sounds like you and your family are very much alike.  THat's just based on the little snippets here though.


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Dec 6, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> I hate guns, so sign me up...



 I think you missed the part about the donation being to the NRA.  Sending them money is the last thing you want to do if you hate guns.


----------



## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> My point being that I don't lie or make things up.
> 
> Of course maybe you didn't see it that way. Or maybe the fact that it is a gift to a worthy cause is irrelevant because you don't like why I did it. Do you think, objectively, gun safety doesn't make for a better world?
> 
> buzzard



i'm on the opposite side of the lobby. i'm pro-gun control

,but great idea buzzard having taken hunter safety as a child on the base (Fort Meade, MD).

as long as guns are legal. teaching the proper way to handle them is good.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 6, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> I think you missed the part about the donation being to the NRA.  Sending them money is the last thing you want to do if you hate guns.




I know.  I responded in that manner because:

a) I was being funny.

b) If a donation was made in my name as a gift, I would appreciate the gesture.

c) I don't oppose other people's view on guns (I just don't like them personally).

(not multiple choice, all of the above applies)


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Dec 7, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> I think you missed the part about the donation being to the NRA.  Sending them money is the last thing you want to do if you hate guns.




Money sent to the NRA is money not spent buying guns.  You can always look at it that way, I suppose.


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Dec 7, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> I know.  I responded in that manner because...



 My bad.  I failed my Sense Sarcasm check. 

Just for the record, I couldn't care less where people donate money, in my name or not, as long as it's from a pre-determined list I made up.  Then, if it's not from that list, you're being rude and selfish.


----------



## buzzard (Dec 7, 2005)

PirateMary said:
			
		

> What is this?  Clever, I think not.




I guess you don't much appreciate the analogy. Oh well. 

This debate appears to be impervious to reason anyway. 

buzzard


----------



## buzzard (Dec 7, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> I know.  I responded in that manner because:
> 
> a) I was being funny.
> 
> ...




Well I already got my five volunteers, but just to address concerns, the donation is to the NRA Foundation which is there to promote gun safety. 

Because of such efforts the gun accident rate has been dropping for years. I imagine that whether or not one likes the evil boom sticks or not, one should appreciate gun safety. 

buzzard


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 7, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> I guess you don't much appreciate the analogy. Oh well.
> 
> This debate appears to be impervious to reason anyway.
> 
> buzzard




I believe that the imperviousness to reason comes from both sides of the argument, so at least it is equal opportunity imperviousness.


----------



## Crothian (Dec 7, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> I guess you don't much appreciate the analogy. Oh well.
> 
> This debate appears to be impervious to reason anyway.
> 
> buzzard




The anology was missing the person getting the gift acting like SR.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 7, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Well I already got my five volunteers, but just to address concerns, the donation is to the NRA Foundation which is there to promote gun safety.
> 
> Because of such efforts the gun accident rate has been dropping for years. I imagine that whether or not one likes the evil boom sticks or not, one should appreciate gun safety.
> 
> buzzard




Yes, that is why I replied.  Even being sarcastic and going for the cheap laugh, I replied knowing full well what the outcome may be.  If I did not feel that way, I would have kept my post to myself.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 7, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> The anology was missing the person getting the gift acting like SR.



That would be the NRA donating the money to the Forums Against Public Posting Foundation and then sending him a nasty letter describing what donations they really want.


----------



## buzzard (Dec 7, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> The anology was missing the person getting the gift acting like SR.




No I think that the analogy is quite valid since if someone gave a red cent to the Church of Scientology in my name I'd be pissed. I wouldn't care at all how much they think it would improve the world. I'd also suggest that there's enough empirical evidence that I would be correct as to make it a pretty unarguable reaction. 

Now, I can certainly see why people have an issue with SR. His initial letter and defense are rather heavy with rough edges but I don't consider his point to be invalid. Giving people gifts they don't want when you know they don't want them consistently and persistently is obnoxious. Either:
A) He's misrepresenting the facts
B) His family is about as perceptive as bricks
C) His family wants to tick him off. 

It certainly appears that he's tried the polite route to have them stop with the unwanted gifts. How is it in the spirit of Christmas to give someone something which you know will annoy them?

buzzard


----------



## Crothian (Dec 7, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> No I think that the analogy is quite valid since if someone gave a red cent to the Church of Scientology in my name I'd be pissed. I wouldn't care at all how much they think it would improve the world. I'd also suggest that there's enough empirical evidence that I would be correct as to make it a pretty unarguable reaction.




Right, that's your reaction.  Mine is I don't care.  So the anology works specifically for you but not for me, so it fails.  



> Now, I can certainly see why people have an issue with SR. His initial letter and defense are rather heavy with rough edges but I don't consider his point to be invalid. Giving people gifts they don't want when you know they don't want them consistently and persistently is obnoxious. Either:
> A) He's misrepresenting the facts
> B) His family is about as perceptive as bricks
> C) His family wants to tick him off.
> ...




It's also his complete unwillingness to see what he's doing as anything but complete justified.  I've gotten gifts I don't want berfore, I think everyone has.  I do think its a bit over reaction on his part.  Its just a gift.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 7, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> How is it in the spirit of Christmas to give someone something which you know will annoy them?



That kind of depends on your family.

Several of my brothers, and my twin sister, and I all do it.

We buy each other's kids those big packs of playdoh. But only if they have carpets.
We buy tubs of LEGO's.
We buy drumsets.
We send each other music CD's or movies we know they can't stand.

The goal is, get the most annoying gift that can be opened in front of the family, and is still legal to send through the mail (Suprisingly enough, CO2 flour explosion packs, and bank dye packs, are NOT legal to send through the mail, and got you a $2500 fine before 11 Sept, they'd probably just shoot you now) and see who wins.

We have a fruitcake that gets shipped around that we found in my great grandmothers canning cellar. We figure it's probably 100 years old.

But, it depends on how you and your family get along.

My "Greatest Hits of Englebert Humperdink" CD that I got last year is going to be tough to top.


----------



## FickleGM (Dec 7, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> No I think that the analogy is quite valid since if someone gave a red cent to the Church of Scientology in my name I'd be pissed. I wouldn't care at all how much they think it would improve the world. I'd also suggest that there's enough empirical evidence that I would be correct as to make it a pretty unarguable reaction.
> 
> Now, I can certainly see why people have an issue with SR. His initial letter and defense are rather heavy with rough edges but I don't consider his point to be invalid. Giving people gifts they don't want when you know they don't want them consistently and persistently is obnoxious. Either:
> A) He's misrepresenting the facts
> ...




If B or C are correct, then I can see his gripe (especially if C is correct).  Unfortunately, this is a one-sided argument and we only have that to go on.  It turns into a personality clash, and this personality will always clash with mine.  My oldest daughter has a similar attitude, so unfortunately that is what I have to compare to.  I know that she has greedy motivations when she acts that way, so I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that SR also has greedy motivations.

I also try and assume the best of intentions in gift givers (I haven't always done this, but have always bit my tongue rather than show displeasure at a gift).  I guess that without knowing for sure, I don't want to start complaining when I am not out anything.

I also try and lean toward addressing situations so that all parties are happy (even if I am not).  Once again, I do not always succeed at this and will "blow" when the correct buttons are pushed.  I do, however, believe that it is the correct way to act.  I just feel that it is better to find pleasure in a situation than to try and force a situation to change into what gives me pleasure, and I feel that this is a better lesson for my children (I set enough bad examples, that I need to set as many good ones as I can).


----------



## buzzard (Dec 7, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Right, that's your reaction.  Mine is I don't care.  So the anology works specifically for you but not for me, so it fails.




I suspect there has to be something someone could do in your name like this that would push your button. I just didn't happen to pick it. If not you are far more level headed than I.



> It's also his complete unwillingness to see what he's doing as anything but complete justified.  I've gotten gifts I don't want berfore, I think everyone has.  I do think its a bit over reaction on his part.  Its just a gift.




This I will grant. I get stuff I don't like at Christmas quite often. I just ignore it. It's not like it was my own money that was wasted. 

In his defense, though, people don't seem to accept that he's pretty overtly shown his irritation, and by ignoring this the family is not exactly being charitable. 

buzzard


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Dec 7, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> For my part, I prefer a list of two or three things, just so I can choose one and make sure they're happy. It's ALWAYS best when I have picked up through clues earlier in the month or year what they want, because that there is the ultimate demonstration that you care enough to have been listening, and you paid enough time and attention to them to be in tune with them. In the absence of this, a gift certificate or list is the best thing, because there's being appreciative of a gift, but I'd rather what I got them be USED. If someone doesn't get enjoyment or use out of my gift, then I've not accomplished what I set out to do, because the enjoyment to me is the part where they tell me that they actually got to do something with that gift.





Or, using this, getting gift certificates is best as you have an idea of what a person wants but no clue what they already have. Both Mom and her sister have problems getting me stuff, not because they don't know my interests, but not knowing what I already HAVE.


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## Darth K'Trava (Dec 7, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No, you didn't think about them. If you had, you would have gotten them something on their list. Instead, you got them soemthing you wanted them to have, and not something they actually wanted. The selfish individual in this scenario is you.




You should be grateful they're willing to get you ANYTHING at all! With your ungrateful attitude, I sure wouldn't want to get you a damn thing!



> So, a $14 CD is a "fairly expensive gift". In that case, I'd hope you would cross me off your list. You are clearly too poor to afford to give gifts to begin with.




I certainly would. To my meager income, that is expensive! I'm glad I don't have to bother getting you a damn thing because I'd get a 25 cent stuffed animal from Goodwill just to piss you off! (and help out a charity in the process!!   )

Being greedy gets you nowhere. Fast.



> If you gave out of the goodness of your heart, you would give people things that they actually want. Not things you decided they should want.




And how would you feel if people gave you NOTHING at all on Christmas Day?!?!?! You'd feel left out, that's for sure.


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## Darth K'Trava (Dec 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> _And the Grinch, with his Grinch-feet ice cold in the snow, stood puzzling and puzzling, how could it be so?
> It came without ribbons. It came without tags.
> It came without packages, boxes or bags.
> 
> ...





Quoted for truthery and the fact that repetition is required.


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## Tewligan (Dec 7, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> But you said he was helping you fix it.
> 
> Hmmm...
> 
> Perhaps he was just saying you were too cheap to buy a new one, so he'd do it for you.



Oh, man...I can't believe that THIS is the post in this thread that I'm responding to. However, I just wanted to point out that I seem to recall SR saying that his friend was helping him to AFfix the rack to the wall, not FIX it. Not to defend his horrifying views on gifting, I just wanted to correct that particular point.


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## Darth K'Trava (Dec 7, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Two years in Tanzania, two years in Zaire (when Mobutu was still alive), three years in Nigeria (two coups during my time there, both bloodless), and two years in Togo (one attempted coup, not bloodless). The fact that there are destitute people out there has no bearing on what my family members can afford, or what kind of lifestyle we lead.




And no doubt hasn't made you grateful for what you DO have! You should be glad you have stuff. Christmas isn't just about the material stuff we get. It's about PEOPLE. Your family. Your friends. Those you should be more grateful for than something that someone can swipe out of your house one night.... But they cannot take your family away from you. If you'd actually spent time in Africa rather than looking up stuff about it on Google, then you'd be more appreciative.

I see that you're not.


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## d20Dwarf (Dec 7, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I see that you're not.




But he has grown really attached to that pen all of a sudden.


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## Darth K'Trava (Dec 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> _Cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon. Little boy blue and the man in the moon...._





Quoted for truthery.

Such a poignant song that should make you wake up and think of what you're _really_ passing on to your kids....


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## Darth K'Trava (Dec 7, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> It seems to me that the focus should be on what you're _giving_, rather than worrying so much about what you're _getting_. If you _believe_ in Christmas, you've already gotten a bigger Gift than anyone is going to give you now, anyway, right? (Hope that isn't too religious, but the name of the thread does include _Christ_mas, after all.  )
> 
> And besides, the best revenge is making people feel like crap because of how much cooler, more personal, and better thought out your present to them is than their present to you.





And, Torm, that should be the best gift of all!!   


Followed by family and friends.


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## reveal (Dec 7, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> But he has grown really attached to that pen all of a sudden.




[Connery]I'll take the penis mightier for 200, Alex.[/Connery]


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Dec 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> [Connery]I'll take the penis mightier for 200, Alex.[/Connery]



Fruedian slip?


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## Uder (Dec 7, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if I can be more clear than this.




Buy what you want and then send the bills around.

This may seem mean, but I don't think you get the idea of Christmas. It's not about _things_.


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## Kisanji Arael (Dec 7, 2005)

Wow, this thread has gone on a long time. Almost not worth posting, since at this point I wouldn't be surprised if StormRaven never checked this thread again. But, in the off chance...

*StormRaven*: I think my only disagreement with your point is that you assume a very strict A or B scenario. They did not get me something I wanted. (got you there) I have tried every way possible to get them to understand me. (yup, I see where you come from) They are utterly thoughtless. (uhhh...) 

See, at this point, I think it's important to remember that there are mediums of absolutes. They did think about you. They obviously do love you and care for you; they spent two hundred dollars on you. They didn't buy the pen to make you unhappy. They didn't buy the pen and put poison in its inkwell. Things could have been worse    

In all honesty, it's probably your father trying to share a hobby with his son. Eh, whatever. You've made your sentiments clear in this matter; he should respect that.

The only problem I have with your letter is that I was raised in a very polite family, and it seems to break "the rules". I opened doors for girls. I speak with my family's sense of gentility. I think that you could get the same message across with a few more "please"s. and "while I appreciate the effort you put into giving gifts"... I think it might be nice to consider thast you can still  be just as abrupt and curt about current gifts without making relatives feel guilty or sad about some of the others that they have given in the past. Considering that you feel guilty about returning gifts when you know your parents will get the return on their credit carrds, it seems a bit inconsistent that you would send a letter that would focus almost as much on shock value as on directness and abruptness. THe letter goes beyond losing subtlety, which is what people have expressed the most disapproval of.

*Everyone not SR*:

"Why Peter, it's... an arcade style Galaga machine. How... considerate." _-Lois _
"Move!" _Peter, shoving Lois through window. _

I actually do side with him on this one. Was I raised in a rich environment? Both parents were teachers, and one of those only a tutor. Not more to say. I think that it is a waste to give gifts that were more in your own interests. It's a sense of living vicariously through the gifts you give. When a child is five, you're allowed to get him an electrc train, because he'll enjoy it as much as you will. When he's ten, you can get him a "family computer" and he'll still go nuts over it. As they get older, however, they get more independant, and will eventually begin to become very sceptical of "personal motives". Example: 

"Dad, why did you get me a puppy?"
"You'll love it. He's a thoroughbred, cost over a hundred dollars."
"Dad, I'm allergic to dogs."
"Well, I also got you a set of shots for the next two years, those allergies will be gone in no time!"
"Did Mom say you can't get another dog?"
"Utterly beside the point. He'll be great! We can take him hunting!"
"I don't own a gun. And I live in New Jersey!"
"uhhh... Alligator hunting. In the sewers!"
"I'm calling Mom." 

Also, there are definitely gifts that have purely selfish reasons for being given. Example: 

A few years ago, an estranged godmother gave as a gift (complicated sentence, bear with me) a cow and two sheep to a needy African family. She gave this present to me. The problem was that I had asked for money, so that  my parents wouldn't have to pay for all of a computer themselves. Also, one is not very concerned with charity at thirteen. The problem I have with giving charity as a gift is that it only makes the gift-giver feel good; you get to feel guilty about not giving the charity yourself. Merry Christmas!

That's all I have to say, I guess.


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## Jonny Nexus (Dec 7, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> About the "fake happiness": it's all perspective.  Even if I don't like a gift I've received, I'm still thankful that the person spent the time, effort and money in an attempt to make me happy, and I can honestly say "thank you for the gift" even if I know I'm never going to use it.  Nothing fake there.  The gifts I treasure most aren't treasured because they were exactly what I wanted - I treasure them because they make me think about the person who gave them to me.  An expensive pen from my parents, knowing my father loves pens and probably put a lot of thought into picking out one he thought I might like?  Even if I never used the pen, I'd think fondly of my father every time I saw it sitting on the desk.




Exactly. My happiness comes from people loving me enough to give me gifts. It doesn't come from receiving things I want. If there's things I want, I'll buy them myself. There's no faking involved.

To me, the purpose of a gift is for someone to buy an item that they think you might like. If you specify what you want, then you're basically buying yourself a gift, but using them as a finance/purchasing/delivery service.

Which just seems absurd to me, in a way that's nicely illustrated by this post:



			
				Fenris said:
			
		

> Why don't you save time. Everyone sit in a circle, take out a $20 and pass it to the person on your left. Then say Merry Christmas. You're done and you don't have to return it and can buy just what you want and no one has to think put any thought or care or love or consideration into the process.




Since you don't seem to like the process of gift exchanging, I'd say you should take this advice:



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> Perhaps this year you should mail out letters to everyone saying that you are not participating in Christmas anymore and they should just not buy you anything this year.  That way you know you are not going to be insulted by your unloving lazy family.




Then you can spend the money that you would have spent on gifts for other people on buying what you really want. The end result is the same, but you hugely simplify the logistics.

Alternatively, I'd suggest that you simply email your bank details to your family and ask them to transfer money directly into your account, and you can buy the stuff yourself.


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## Aris Dragonborn (Dec 7, 2005)

Long thread, so I don't know if this has been mentioned already....

SR, do something different this year.

_Don't_ make a list.

Seriously. 

If you have no expectations of what gifts you might get, then you can't feel let down when you don't get those gifts, yes?

The saying, I believe, goes "It is better to *give* than to *recieve*."


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## diaglo (Dec 7, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> My bad.  I failed my Sense Sarcasm check.
> 
> Just for the record, I couldn't care less where people donate money, in my name or not, as long as it's from a pre-determined list I made up.  Then, if it's not from that list, you're being rude and selfish.



   

mang, i spit coffee all over myself.


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## evileeyore (Dec 7, 2005)

Storm Raving I think your a seriously repressed and angry person.  I can dig it so am I.  The difference being I when I get gifts I find uses for them, especially if it was soemthing I didn't ask for.  Just getting means they thought enough to stop and get something for you, not having forgot you yet again.

I can look around my room and easily see many things I never asked for (and never use) but cherish none the less.  For instance:

A lifesized cardboard standup of G'kar from Babylon 5, a hand painted wooden 'Bunny Crossing' sign that looks like a carrot, a devilish mime (I hate mimes) puppet, a broken plastic Hydrolisk figure from Blizzard's Starcraft game, and two antique (and non-functional) propane cutting torches.

Every single one of those gifts was something I would have never asked for (especially the mime) but I cherish them nonetheless.

The Cardboard G'kar came from my Mom, a traditionally non-geek rabid hippy who went into our FLGS (at great risk to her sanity) one day lost and confused and asked a counter person what to get her twenty year old son.  The counter rep asked what I was into and all she could think of was Babylon 5.  This was after B-5 was off the air...  BTW this was a flush year and we had exchanged gift lists.  So really she could have easily gotten me something I 'wanted', but I'm glad she got me something I liked.*

The hand made and painted Bunny Crossing came from an uncle who living across the country and never really talking to me (I never talk much with family outside my Mom) only knew when I was younger I loved rabbits and stuffed animals.  He also remembered that I still get a stuffed bunny every Easter from my Ma.  He had no money, but plenty of scrap wood, time and skill.  Thats the last gift I got from him (he's not dead, just 'disappeared' again like he does every ten years).

The devil mime came from a friend that traditionally goes out of his way to get 'bad' gifts for people.  It now hangs upside down on the wall above a bowl of plastic scorpions, above its feet is a sign that says "Learn Thy Words".  I chuckle every time I see it.

The broken Hydralisk came from a friend that knows I'm a Blizzard fanatic, but also knows I refuse to buy 'useless' stuff for myself.  He also knows I love challenges.  He found the broken Hydralisk in a discount bin for 5 bucks and knew it would be a big hit.  It now sits atop my monitor and constantly threatens to Zerg Rush my keyboard.

The antique torches came from another uncle.  He was overseeing the cleaning out of his buildings storage facilities (they were moving to a new production plant) and the two torches were on the 'discard' list.  He broke Union Regs and took 'em home for me.  At the time I was studying to be a welder and he thought I'd appreciate the history of owning some 'old school' cutting and welding torches, the kind his grandad used (he is in the same company and union g-grandad was in).  Probably actually had g-grandad's hands on 'em at one point.  They sit atop a shelf gathering dust, but I enjoy them.  Ohh yeah, the same uncle sent me g-grandad's old union pin too.  Its on a cardboard placcard I made for it next to the torches.  These gifts are probably the most meanigful, even though my uncle knows I really don't care much about family, I do care alot about history.

So SR, its not getting what you asked for.  Its about getting what someone else wants to give you.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 7, 2005)

"God bless us, every one."

0_o


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## PirateMary (Dec 7, 2005)

I don't think he's coming back, at least not to post.  Maybe he has seen the error in his selfish and rude ways.  Maybe he realized he was projecting his own short-comings onto innocent family members.  Maybe he's revising his demand list.  Maybe he's shipping the pen to d20Dwarf.  Or maybe, just maybe, he's removing that 3ft. pole topped with the head of the Grinch from his bum.  Who knows?


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## Kahuna Burger (Dec 7, 2005)

PirateMary said:
			
		

> I don't think he's coming back, at least not to post.  Maybe he has seen the error in his selfish and rude ways.  Maybe he realized he was projecting his own short-comings onto innocent family members.  Maybe he's revising his demand list.  Maybe he's shipping the pen to d20Dwarf.  Or maybe, just maybe, he's removing that 3ft. pole topped with the head of the Grinch from his bum.  Who knows?



Maybe he's wondering when personal insult dogpiles became acceptable on EN world. I certainly am.


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## PirateMary (Dec 7, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> Maybe he's wondering when personal insult dogpiles became acceptable on EN world. I certainly am.



Do I know you?  I feel like I've met you before.


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## reveal (Dec 7, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> Maybe he's wondering when personal insult dogpiles became acceptable on EN world. I certainly am.




About the same time you _decided to make an innapropriate post and call another poster names._

_-Let's not and say we didn't, please. -Henry_


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## francisca (Dec 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> deleted



Dude!  Don't hold back!  Tell us how you really feel!


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## PirateMary (Dec 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> deleted



My hero!


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## Wystan (Dec 7, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> OK, for all you people who think SR is satan incarnate (which seems to be plenty of you). The popular sentiment here appears to be that the spirit of the gift matters more than the gift itself or the desires of the recipient.
> 
> Is it OK if I give $20 is each of your names to the Church of Scientology because I think it will make for a better world?
> 
> buzzard




Buzzard,

Please feel free to give to any charity or tax exempt religious organization that you feel would be most needing of it, in my name. In doing so you show that you have compassion and a sense of helping others. If I disagree with the message that they display, that is less important than the knowledge that you are trying to make the world a better place.

Bill C.
Head Deacon
Church of the Lutheran Bretheran


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## Wystan (Dec 7, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Hmm, and to think I imagine I had picked an organization which was considered loathesome enough by most to have people get my point. However were I to actually offer a thing of this sort it would be a gift which actually suits my disposition. I could shell out a few bucks to the NRA in some people's name. Heck, I'd probably even be civil enough to send it to the education branch which is tax deductable and not involved in lobbying.
> 
> In the interest of money where my mouth  is,  I will send $20 to the NRA education fund (Eddie Eagle and all that gun safety jazz) in the name of the first five of you naysayers to drop me an email.
> 
> ...




Please do so. I will be reupping my membership there soon as well.

William Curtis


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## Henry (Dec 7, 2005)

I think this thread has gone way past its original premise and far down the path of personal flames. I'm closing this now, and suggest we ALL need to cool down.

Thanks, all, and I'm hoping the holiday goes well for everyone.


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