# Converting prehistoric animals



## BOZ (Oct 23, 2003)

This thread continues my idea of “cooperative conversions” started in this thread, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on prehistoric animals from various D&D sources, such as dinosaurs and early mammals.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

The following is a list of prehistoric animals from various that haven’t yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog.  You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when.  If I’m missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.

First Edition Monster Manual (1977):
Dinosaurs (Anatosaurus (Tractodon), Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus), Archelon Ischyros, Brachiosaurus, Camarasaurus, Ceratosaurus, Cetiosaurus, Dinichtys, Diplodocus, Gorgosaurus, Iguanadon, Lambeosaurus, Megalosaurus, Monoclonius, Mosasaurus, Paleoscinus, Pentaceratops, Plateosaurus, Plesiosaurus, Pteranodon, Stegosaurus, Styracosaurus, Teratosaurus)
Mammoth
Mastodon
Titanothere

First Edition Monster Manual II (1982):
Dinosaurs (Ankisaurus, Camptosaurus, Compsognathus, Dacentrurus, Diplophosaurs, Dimetrodon, Euparkeria, Kentrosaurus, Mamenchisaurus, Masspondylus, Nothosaurus, Ornitholestes, Podokesaurus, Giant Pterosaur, Struthiomimus, Tanystropheus, Tennodontosaurus)

DRAGON mag:
55 - Allosaurus, therezinosaurus, parasaurolophus, ankylosarusus
112 - Aetosaur, ankylosaur, carnosaur, ceratopsian, marine chelonian
137 - Alticamelus, ambelodon, arsinotherium, astrapotherium, short-faced bear, giant bison, cattle (auroch), deinotherium, gigantopithecus, glyptodon, macrauchenia, moropus, sivatherium, ground sloth, uintatherium 
167 - Agriotherium, amphycion, anancus, andrewsarchus, giant camel, dwarf elephant, eucladoceros, giant hippopotmaus, megalania, metridiochoerus, pelorovis, sarkastodon 
176 - Giant opabinia, electric agnath, eurypterid, armored predatory fish, eogyrinus, eryops, cyclotosaurus, cacops, giant platyhystrix, estemennosuchus, early therapsids, giant therapsid, erythrosuchus 
204 - Opabinia, yohoia, marrella, odontogriphus, leanchoilia, amiskwia, sanctacaris, wiwaxia, ottoia, anomalocaris


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## BOZ (Oct 23, 2003)

Didn’t mean to get you thinking that I was going to get a whole new thread going just yet – I needed the hyaenodon converted and since I was going to get to the prehistoric animals sooner or later, I started up this thread.    but, not intending to disappoint, the thread will probably drop off for a bit after finishing this beastie up.

Now, according to the original MM, the hyaenodons “are simply huge (prehistoric) hyenas”.  There’s a little bit of a stat difference, so that’s all I’ll really post here and we’ll have this done in no time.

A hyaenodon is a Large creature instead of a Medium.  It travels in smaller packs of only 2-8.  It has 5 HD.  As for its bite, the normal hyena did 2-8 and the hyaenodon did 3-12.  the current hyena does 1d6+3, so we need only come up with an appropriate range for the hyaenodon.  

Now, the creatures appeared again later in MC1, with a better description:

Although the hyaenodon resembles a giant hyena it is actually not related at all.  It is a survivor of prehistoric times, a predator that evolved into a canine-like form.  Hyaenodon markings are similar to those of hyenae, although the dominant fur color is a lion-like gold.  Despite their genetic differences, they are very similar to hyenae in temperament and behavior.  Hyaenodon females give birth to litters of 1-4 cubs.  These mature within 4 years.
Its savage bite does 3-12 (3d4) points of damage and it can lock onto its victims as smaller hyenae do.  If the hyaenodon does this, the victim’s movement rate is cut by 12 for each hyaenodon that attaches itself.  Hyaenodon packs will devour one man-sized victim per day.  Because of their larger size, they are able to take large prey such as elephants, oxen, and buffalo.  If a giant hyena suffers 2 or more points of burning damage, it immediately flees the area in search of a spot to tend its wounds.


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## Echohawk (Oct 23, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> 112 - Aetosaur, ankylosaur, carnosaur, ceratopsian, marine chelonian



 The article in issue #112 which seems to abruptly end on page 16 actually continues again on page 66, so you can add a few more to that list: Coelurosaur, Crocodilian, Cynodont, Deinonychosaur, Dicynodont, Ichthyosaur, Labyrinthodont, Ornithomimosaur, Ormthopod, Plesiosaur, Prosauropod, Pterosaur, Rhynchosaur, Sauropod and Stegosaur.

 Some of these have already appeared in 3.x, but I'm late for a meeting, so I'm not going to stop to check which ones right now...


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2003)

I'd recommend we retool it as a dire creature.  Otherwise, it would simply be a hyena advanced to Large size with a different description.


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## BOZ (Oct 23, 2003)

if you mean using erica's template, i was thinking of doing that.  not necessarily following it strictly, but definitely using the parts that i like.  more on this soon...


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## BOZ (Oct 23, 2003)

before i get to that though, i found a few links that might add to the discussion:

Hyena and Hyenadon: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=916

Hyenas #2: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30312

Dire Hyena #2: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35326


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## BOZ (Oct 23, 2003)

in shade's conversion, i see Move Silently as a skill, but Weapon Finesse for the feat just doesn't work here.  geocorona's version of the dire hydra also adds Wilderness Lore (aka Survival) with a bonus to tracking by scent, and he gives it the Dodge feat as well.


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## BOZ (Oct 23, 2003)

ok, posted the stats, give me some comments.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2003)

For the other feat, how about either Run or Weapon Focus (bite)?   And maybe give it Track as a bonus feat?  (Compare to 3.5 Dire Wolf).


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## BOZ (Oct 24, 2003)

ok, unless there are additional comments, i will consider this one done once someone gives me a description.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2003)

How's this for a description?

_This immense canine resembles a giant hyena, with similar markings, but its fur is golden, akin to a lion's.  It's piercing gaze and drooling leer add to its feral appearance._

A hyeanodon is about 8 feet long and weighs around 750 pounds.


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## BOZ (Oct 24, 2003)

very good, that's exactly the sort of thing i'm looking to see.


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## BOZ (Oct 24, 2003)

very good, that's exactly the sort of thing i'm looking to see.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 4, 2004)

OK, I was referred here by the First Edition MM page. Could I just volunteer to do the Monster Manual and Monster Manual II dinosaurs? And, if I did do so, where would I send them once they're done?

Demiurge out.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 21, 2004)

Conversion Update:
I've actually started, and gotten a ways, too. I'm through "d". This entails some 13 or so conversions. I might be done with the entire MMI and MMII dinosaurs by next week, if I keep up my current pace.

When I finish, should I post them as an attachment to this forum for critique?

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Jan 21, 2004)

wow, ok.    sounds good.  we'll probably post them with a bit o' editing, as needed.

actually, we'll most likely critique them one by one, to promote discussion.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2004)

Where? On this forum? I can start that at any time.

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Jan 22, 2004)

actually, e-mail the doc file to me: k b o z m a n 7 4 @ a o l . c o m


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 31, 2004)

I have a tread 'round here called 'Dinosaurs A to Z', only got to P... and it just so happens, I still have them  Let me convert them to 3.5, see what I come up with...


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 31, 2004)

Ok, just one to see if I have it down right...

Iguanadon
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 13d8+65 (135 hp) 
Initiative: +0 
Speed: 30 ft
Armor Class: 16 (-2 Size, +8 natural) 
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+13 
Attack: Bite +13 melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: Bite +13 melee (2d6+5), 2 claws +8 melee (2d4+2) 
Space/Reach: 15 ft / 10 ft 
Special Attacks: 
Special Qualities: Scent 
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +8, Will +6
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 11, Con 22, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 8 
Skills: Listen +9, Spot +9 
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Toughness(3) 
Environment: Temperate forest, hill, and plains
Organization: Solitary, Pair, or Herd (3-10)
Challenge Rating: 6
Advancement: 14-18 HD (Huge); 19-32 (Gargantuan) 
Level Adjustment: - 


Look ok?

EDIT: Ugh, Dino's are d8 HP now...


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## Zaster (Jan 31, 2004)

Good stuff.  For comparison here's a version I did a while ago:

Iguanodon
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 12D8+78 (132 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class:  15 (-2 size, +7 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15 
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+26
Attack:  Thumb spike +16 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack:   2 thumb spikes +16 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks:  Trample 2d8+13
Special Qualities:  Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +8, Will +5
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills:  Hide -6*, Listen +12, Spot +8, Swim +11
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (Listen), Toughness (2) 
Environment:  Warm forest and marsh 
Organization:  Solitary or herd (5-8)
Challenge Rating:  7
Treasure:  None
Alignment:  Always nuetral
Advancement: 13-24 HD (Huge); 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)

_You see a squat, massive herbivore with broad, earthen stripes .  It seems equally comfortable loping on two legs or foraging on all four.  A wicked spike projects from the side of each paw._

Iguanodons are adaptable and highly successful dinosaurs that grow roughly 30 ft. long and weigh five or six tons.  They stoop low or crawl to browse on ferns and other low-growing plants, but otherwise walk on thier hind limbs.  With the few changes noted below, iguanodon stats can also be used to represent duckbill dinosaurs.

Combat:
Iguanodons are generally peaceful herd animals, but are best kept at a distance owing to the readiness with which they defend themselves against perceived threats.  An iguanodon uses its "thumb spikes" (which are not actually digits at all) to jab at the head and neck of an opponent.  If you use iguanodon stats to represent a duckbill dinosaur, omit these thumb spike attacks.  A duckbill has only one attack; a slam for 1d8+13.   Duckbills would rather flee into nearby water from any threat, attempting a panicked slam or trample only if denied this escape. 

Trample (Ex):    Reflex half DC 25.  The save DC is Strength-based.

Skills:  
*Iguanodons have a +8 racial Hide bonus amongst dense foliage, while duckbills receive a similar bonus in water.


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

wippit, instead of that could you please find your thread and bump it up?  thanks.


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 1, 2004)

For the life of me, I can't find the thread.
I have the original file at work, I'll just post it tomorrow.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 1, 2004)

So, Boz, just asking, but when are you going to start posting the dinosaurs I sent you?

Demiurge out.


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## Krishnath (Feb 1, 2004)

Comments on the Iguanadons, drop the scent, and trample, change tumb spikes to claw attacks (well they are claws...) and give it rend.

Just a suggestion, ignore it or embrace it as you see fit.


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 1, 2004)

Most animals have scent... I do agree with the trample, though, not really that kind of dinosaur.


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> So, Boz, just asking, but when are you going to start posting the dinosaurs I sent you?
> 
> Demiurge out.




ahhh, when i stop being lazy.  how about now.  

since i want to get all the ones from X1 out of the way, might as well go through that list alphabetically, starting with Allosaurus.  i don't know if demiurge did a conversion of that one or not, but if anyone knows of a conversion they can point me to, that would be grrrreat!


First of all, the OD&D stats from X1 Isle of Dread:

Allosaurus
Armor Class: 5
Hit Dice: 13
Move: 150’ (50’)
Attacks: 1 bite
Damage: 4-24
No. Appearing: 0 (1-4)
Save As: Fighter: 7
Morale: 9
Treasure Type: V
Alignment: Neutral
An allosaurus is a huge carnivorous dinosaur which runs upright on its large hind legs. It stands almost 15' tall, and weighs several tons. The allosaur's attack is to bite with its large jaws, which are filled with dagger-like teeth. Allosaurs hunt most often in lowland hills and plains.


i found a 1E version of it in Dragon Mag #55 ("Dinosaurs: New Theories For Old Monsters," November 1981, Lawrence Schick):

Allosaurus
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 12
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK:1-6/1-6/3-24
SIZE: L (30’ long)

Though it weighs several tons, allosaurus is easily one of the quickest and most agile of the large carnosaurs. Its forelimbs are strong compared to those of the tyrannosaurs, and are useful for helping to hold and tear its prey. However, allosaurus’ long teeth are its primary armament. When on the move, an allosaur’s tooth-filled head is held about 10 feet above the ground.
Allosaurus is one of a group of species called megalosaurs, a family that includes carnosaurs like megalosaurus (naturally) and ceratosaurus. These creatures are all similar to allosaurus, though slightly smaller. (Megalosaurus is about 10 HD, ceratosaurus about 8.)


And, to make things even more confusing, a set of 2E stats for the allosaurus (aka antrodemus) from MC3 (its stats reprinted in MCA2 are below):

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 15
THAC0: 8
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4/1d4/6d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (40’ long)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 9,000

One of the most vicious predators, this monster can run across hard ground at great speed.  In size, the allosaurus is between its two relatives, the smaller megalosaurus and the larger tyrannosaurus rex.  It weigh about 1 ½ tons.
The allosaurus has a massive skull, formed of bony plates that give it strength.  The design of these plates is such that the head is still light enough to snap quickly at prey.
Besides feeding on the occasional brontosaurus and diplodocus, this “flesh lizard” is known to eat carrion.
Few other creatures are foolish enough to fight the allosaurus for a share of its meal.


OK.  So, I guess we’ll just have to go with whatever stats are the best, or most accurate to current scientific theory, and mix and match as needed.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 2, 2004)

The allosaurus is in MM2. That's not a very good conversion, IMO (they don't need trample, should have had more HD then 10).

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Feb 2, 2004)

doi!  why didn't someone warn me first.  oh yeah, cuz i didn't ask.  

how about the brontosaurus burger?


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 2, 2004)

Yes, Boz, that was the one 


http://enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38072


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## Zaster (Feb 2, 2004)

This is quick & rough, and I don't have previous addition bronto stats anywhere, but by comparing other dinos in the 3.5 SRD against one another I come up with something like the following.  Bronto weighed about 30 tons (as compared to something in the area of 100 tons for seismosaurus if I recall correctly).  BTW, I don't know whether we care or not, but bronto's name was officially changed to Apatosaurus some years back.

*Brontosaurus*
Gargantuan Animal
Hit Dice: 24D8+192 (309 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (-1 dex, +8 natural, -4 size), touch 5, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+41
Attack: Tail slap +29 melee (2d8+16)
Full Attack: Tail slap +29 melee (2d8+16)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Trample 2d6+16
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +13, Will +9
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 9, Con 27, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 12
Skills: Listen +?, Spot +? 
Feats: Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Run, Toughness (3)


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

This thread is becoming very hard to follow.  Could we stick to one dinosaur at a time, like the other conversion threads, and then move on to the next?


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 2, 2004)

Ok, getting on the original track...

Hyena's are in the Miniature's Handbook, which I don't have access to. And I'd want to see the stats for one before I try to 'adon' it.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

Wippit - Hyenas are in the MM 3.5 and the online SRD now.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

Also, the hyaenodon is already converted and in the Creature Catalog.    

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=740


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 2, 2004)

Ok then, what are we working on?


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

Allosaurus, I believe.


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 2, 2004)

Ok, here's what I got. To avoid making it just a smaller T-Rex, he has piddly little claw attacks, and goign with a Michael Chrieton appraoch, gave him a chameleon ability. CR might be a bit off...

----

Allosaurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+48 (105 hp) 
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) 
Armor Class: 14 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural) touch 9, flat-footed 13 
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+15 
Attack: Bite +15 melee (2d8+7) 
Full Attack: Bite +15 melee (2d8+7), 2 claws +9 melee (1d3+3) 
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. 
Special Attacks: Improved grab 
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent 
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +8 
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10 
Skills: Hide +8*, Listen +9, Spot +10 
Feats: Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Run, Toughness, Track 

Environment: Warm plains and forests 
Organization: Solitary or pair 
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: 13-36 HD (Huge); 37-42 HD (Gargantuan) 
Level Adjustment: - 

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an allosaurus must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it automatcially deals bite damage the following round. Creatures held in this way cannot be hit by the claws attacks.

Skills: Allosaurus have a chameleonlike ability that grants them a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. *In forests or overgrown areas, this bonus improves to +8


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## Zaster (Feb 2, 2004)

Allosaurus (as Demiurge pointed out) is in MMII.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> doi!  why didn't someone warn me first.  oh yeah, cuz i didn't ask.
> 
> how about the brontosaurus burger?


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## BOZ (Feb 2, 2004)

i will get previous bronto stats to this thread ASAP.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

BOZ--Is this thread working differently than the other conversion threads?  Are we converting multiple monsters at once?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 3, 2004)

Boz, just so you know, Apatosaurus is in the .doc I sent you. Just another reminder.

RE Shade: There really doesn't seem to be too much of a pattern to the conversion's timing (1 vs multiple). I think that the thread will settle soon enough, though.

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Feb 4, 2004)

First of all, stats from the 1E monster manual (I know there were some 2E stats, I’ll get those later if they’re notably different):

Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus)
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 6”
HIT DICE: 30
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (70’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The thunder-lizard is a 40 ton plant-eater found near marshes and lakes.  The creature spends much of his time in shallow water to support his bulk.  It moves to deep water to avoid carnivores.  Apatosaurus ignores small things, but it is prone to step on anything in its way (doing 4-40 points of damage).


Hey, I thought I heard somewhere that that “support bulk in water” thing was so much BS, because it uses its tail for balance.  Feel free to inject as much current scientific theory into this as you like, but let’s not get too bogged down in science – it’s just a game, after all.  


And here is demiurge’s version:


*Dinosaur, Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus)*
Colossal Animal
Hit Dice: 20d8+166 (256 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 12 (-8 size, +10 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+43
Attack: Tail slam +19 melee (3d8+18 plus thunderous snap)
Full Attack: Tail slam +19 melee (3d8+18 plus thunderous snap)
Space/Reach: 60ft/40ft
Special Attacks: Thunderous snap, trample 6d8+18
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +12, Will +8
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 11, Con 27, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +19
Feats: Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Toughness (x2)
Environment: Warm forests, plains and hills
Organization: Solitary or pair 
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 21-60 HD (Colossal)
Level Advancement: -

This massive quadruped has a very long neck and tail, a horse-like head, a wrinkled, elephantine hide and a small row of colorful spines lining its back, like those of an iguana.

The apatosaurs are the most common species of sauropod, the unbelievably large long-necked dinosaurs.

Although they vary in size, most apatosaurs are between 70 and 80 feet in length. They are solitary, unlike their relatives Diplodocus and Seismosaurus. They feed on low-lying foliage with their long necks, and can rear up on their hind legs and tail to reach the tops of trees.

Combat
Apatosaurs are so large that they have few natural enemies, besides allosaurs and megalosaurs hunting in packs. If directly threatened, they lash out with their powerful tails, but are capable of merely walking over most opponents.

Thunderous Snap (Ex): Although they are ponderous, an apatosaurus’ whip-like tail can move faster than sound. Any creature struck by an apatosaurus’ tail slam must make a Fortitude save (DC 28) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds and deafened for 1d4 minutes. On a successful save, the creature is merely deafened for 1d4 minutes. The save DC is Constitution based.

Trample (Ex): An apatosaurus can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Gargantuan or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 32 half) or take 6d8+18 damage. The save DC is Strength based.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 4, 2004)

Just to point out that I'm not totally insane, the thunderous snap is a not-terribly-uncommon scientific hypothesis, as various computer dynamics analysis have suggested that an apatosaur or similar dinosaur could move its whip-like tail at supersonic speed.

Plus it's a cool ability for a game-dino to have.
Demiurge out.


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## Zaster (Feb 4, 2004)

I think base size should be gargantuan.  If you look at the colossal dragon on page 150 of the PH, he dwarfs the human figure in a way that I don't think even a 40 ton dinosaur could match.  According to the Dragonomicon, a colossal dragon is around _640_ tons.

Also, 20 HD seems slightly low-ball to me, what with this creature coming in at 3 or 4 times the weight of a 16 HD trike.  Even the measly 6 ton Tyannosaurus has 18 HD.  I realize HD isn't all about relative weight, but still...

As for ability scores and AC, I'd say offhand that Urge's look to be in the range of what's reasonable.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 4, 2004)

I based the 20 HD figure off of the seismosaurus, the largest and strongest of the sauropods. According to the MMII, a seismosaurus has 32 HD, and both the diplodocus and brachiosaurus are larger/more powerful than an apatosaur. Also, tonnage wasn't my comparison so much as length. An apatosaur is certainly over 64 feet in length. But by weight, hmm...

Of course, if you were going by weight, the seismosaurus would be disqualified from the Colossal category (where it is), because the heaviest dinosaur was the 100 ton argentinosaurus (The MM posts Colossal at 125+ tons).

Demiurge out.


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 4, 2004)

I second the vote for starting at gargantuan, keeps it more 'realistic' when comparing it to a dragon of similar strength (all but gold in the 34-35 strength cat are G). Hit dice seem about right compared to the closest thing we have to a similar creature in 3.5, triceratops (coming in at 16 to start).

But, beyond reducing the size by 1 (and remember, advancement will kick it up anyways), looks good.


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## Mortis (Feb 4, 2004)

Hi Guys,

A 3e version of the Brontosaurus can be found here:

http://www.dnd.starflung.com/brontosa.html

other dinosaurs may be found on this page under 'd':

http://www.dnd.starflung.com/newcrea.html

and here:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

thanks for the links; i'll have to check them out at home (stupid work filters).

some comments:

I could see going Gargantuan – most of the beast’s length is neck and tail.  And the size charts do not need to be followed verbatim: the are not minimums and maximums, rather they are strong suggestions of such.

For hit dice, yes I say 20 is too low.  The original had 30 right?

Thunderous snap – hey it’s unique, I’ll keep it.


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> For hit dice, yes I say 20 is too low. The original had 30 right?



Prblem is, there's several dinosaurs that are larger in size... unless you want 80HD seismosaurs in the future


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> For hit dice, yes I say 20 is too low.  The original had 30 right?




Yes, but the seismosaurus (the biggest and strongest of the sauropods) has 32 in MMII. So increasing them back to their original 1e number isn't the best way to go. An average of around 23-25 would probably work (since the diplodocus and brachiosaurus are larger aka more HD than the apatosaurus).

Demiurge out.


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## Zaster (Feb 5, 2004)

A persistent theme here is that progression is always going to make hash out of any attempt to portray these beasts realistically.  I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Progression on the Seismosaurus is:  33-64 (Colossal).  So Seismo is capped at double his base HD, not the usual 3X.  Weird like a beard, but I checked the update booklet and this hasn't changed.

Even if we go the same route with Apatosaurus, then Demiurge's conversion still caps out at 40HD, which overlaps Seismo by quite a bit.  Personally, I wouldn't worry about it, since its an unavoidable quirk of progression, and since HD take into account overall fighting ability as well as mass.

Even if we do Brachiosaurus later, I wouldn't worry about having to put him within a few HD of Seismosaurus.  Brach wasn't completely out of Seismo's league in terms of mass anyway.

So personally, I wouldn't worry about bringing Apatosaurus in say 2 to 4 HD larger than Urge's 20D.  But I can see the argument both ways.

As for the hypersonic tail snap, I like it too.  It will make Apatosaurus something more than just a shrimpy seismo.


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

size =/= HD either.  

20, IMO, is way too little.  30 might be too much though... i'll have to get a moment to compare what the other dinos' HDs were in previous editions, two what they are now to make a real determination here.


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> 20, IMO, is way too little. 30 might be too much though...



Well, that's easy then, split the difference, 25 HD


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

if i don't come up with a better answer in a day or two, then 25 it is.


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## BOZ (Feb 7, 2004)

Comparing 1E MM dino Hit Dice to 3.5 MM, we get these:

Elasmosaurus: 15 / 10
Triceratops: 16 / 16
Tyrannosaurus: 18 / 18

And 1E MM2:

Deionychus: 4 / 4

So, there was some decrease present, but not a whole lot.  Therefore, I don’t want to do a whole lot of reduction with the other dinos.  I will support sticking with the OD&D version’s 26 HD though (see below).  


2E stats:

Brontosaurus
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any swamp
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Nil

NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 30
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Crush (4d10 or 5d10)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESITANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (70’ long)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 22,000

Brontosaurus (apatosaurus)

The “thunder lizard” is a 40-ton plant-eater found near marshes and takes. The creature spends much of its time in shallow water to support its bulk (and because food is plentiful there), but never moves to deep water because the increase in pressure makes it impossible for the tremendous dinosaur to breathe.

Apatosaurus ignores small things, but it is prone to step on anything in its way (causing 4d10 points of damage).

The body of the brontosaur is 65 feet long, but the tiny head is less than two feet of that-a man with the same dimensions would stand six feet tall, but have a head only two inches long! The brontosaurus tips the scale at a mere 30 tons, rather light for a sauropod.

The front legs of the brontosaurus are shorter than those in the rear, like all sauropods except the brachiosaurus. This configuration enables sauropods to get up on their back feet to reach the topmost leaves of a tree. The brontosaurus. could also use this ability to- fight against its principal enemy, the allosaurus. The thunder lizard could tilt itself up on its long back legs, then come crashing down onto its enemy to inflict 5d10 points of damage.

The brontosaurus's tail can be whipped, causing 1d6 points of damage to any foe close enough.


OD&D:

Brotosaurus
Armor Class:	5	
Hit Dice:	26	
Move:	60' (20')	
Attacks:	1 bite/1 tail	
Damage:	2-12/3-18	
No. Appearing:	0 (1-3)
Save As:	Fighter: 13
Morale:	8
Treasure Type:	Nil
Alignment:	Neutral

A brontosaurus is one of the largest of all dinosaurs. It has a massive body with a small head, long neck, and a strong, tapering tail. The creature is 65' to 75' long and weighs more than 30 tons.

A brontosaurus is so heavy that it needs to spend most of its time in water, so that the water helps support its weight. If only its neck shows above water, the brontosaurus may be mistaken for a plesiosaur or sea serpent. This dinosaur eats plants, and can only be found in deep marshes or on the edge of swamps.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 7, 2004)

26 it is, then?

Demiurge out.


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## Zaster (Feb 7, 2004)

Sounds alright.


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## BOZ (Feb 8, 2004)

hmm, and did we agree to make them Gargantuan also?  or were we going to stick with Colossal?

he gets more skills & feats with 6 more HD, as well as the other usuall accompanying changes.

let me make a few comparisons between demiurge's suggested conversion and the original bronto D&D sources.  that's really the bulk of what we'll be doing in this thread, at least for the ones that he or someone else has personally converted.

All D&D versions of the bronto had AC 5.  I was thinking we would need to up its natural armor, but then a size decrease will increase the AC overall of course.  

The AD&D version had them appearing in groups of 1-6, while the OD&D version had them in groups of 1-3.  does science speak of these things moving around in small herds or should we stick with “Solitary or pair”?

Regular physical attacks is another thing that varies.  The OD&D bronto had two attacks, clearly spelled out: 1 bite (2-12 damage) and 1 tail (3-18).  The 1E bronto also had them listed as doing 3-18 damage, but does not suggest what sort of attack that is.  The 2E bronto also has the 3-18 attack, but adds a 1-6 damage attack, although this attack is identified as a tail slap. Ahhhh!  

The weight for this animal is listed alternatively as 30 tons or 40 tons.

There is also a stamping attack listed in both AD&D versions (which does not seems to require that the beast be running – it simply steps on smaller creatures): 1E has 4-40 points of damage, and 2E adds an intentional rearing back to crush opponents that is 5-50 damage.

Also, all three sources mention finding bronto most commonly in a marsh or shallow aquatic environment.  This could be a holdover from the “needs to be in water to support its weight” theory, but I think scientists to agree that while it didn’t need to be in water, it often was anyway.

Other than those items, I think it’s just fine as is.  Now of course, we don’t have to actually use all or even any of this stuff – it’s just something to think about.  Just ask Shade – I’m always this critical.    of course, I expect a return favor…


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## BOZ (Feb 8, 2004)

to have a good look at the "competition", here is the text of the dinos that mortis posted links to.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Hi Guys,
> 
> A 3e version of the Brontosaurus can be found here:
> 
> http://www.dnd.starflung.com/brontosa.html




voila (this is a conversion of the OD&D bronto, as is the one below):
Brontosaurus
by Trevor Mellis 
Type and Size:  Gargantuan beast
Hit Dice:  26d10+182 (364 hp)
Initiative:  +1
Speed:  20'
AC: 11 (+4 natural, -4 size, +1 Dex.)
Attacks:  1 bite +31 melee, 1 tail +27 melee
Damage:  2d8 +12 bite, 1d8 +12 tail
Face/Reach:  30' x 30' / 15'
Special Attacks:  Trample, capsize
Special Qualities: Scent, immunities
Saves: Fort +22 Ref +15 Will +8 
Abilities: Str. 35, Dex. 11, Con. 25, Int. 1, Wis. 10, Cha. 9
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: None

Climate/Terrain: Prehistoric Aquatic
Organisation: Solitary (1) or group (1-3)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: -

Description:
 The brontosaurus is one of the largest of all dinosaurs.  It has a long, tapering tail and a massive body that supports a long neck and small head.  The creature is 65-75 feet long and weighs more than 30 tons.

A brontosaurus is so heavy that it needs to spend most of its time in water, so that the water helps support its weight.  If only its neck shows above water, the brontosaurus may be mistaken for a plesiosaurus, elasmosaurus, or a sea serpent.  This dinosaur eats plants, and can only be found in deep marshes or on the edges of swamps.

Combat:
 Trample (Ex): A brontosaurus can trample Large-sized or smaller creatures for 2d8+12 points of damage if fighting on solid ground or in shallow water.  Opponents who do not make attacks of opportunity against the brontosaurus may attempt a Reflex save (DC 20) for half damage.

Capsize (Ex): A submerged brontosaurus that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time.  It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 30 feet long, and a 20% chance to capsize a vessel 30 to 60 feet long.

Immunities: A brontosaurus is immune to all disease and poisons that do not cause damage.



> other dinosaurs may be found on this page under 'd':
> 
> http://www.dnd.starflung.com/newcrea.html




thanks, we'll keep that in mind.  



> and here:
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/
> 
> ...




couldn't get the formatting right to post it, but here's a more specific link: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6011/MMCA/dinosaur.html


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## Shade (Feb 8, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> There is also a stamping attack listed in both AD&D versions (which does not seems to require that the beast be running – it simply steps on smaller creatures): 1E has 4-40 points of damage, and 2E adds an intentional rearing back to crush opponents that is 5-50 damage.




Sounds like trample to me.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, all three sources mention finding bronto most commonly in a marsh or shallow aquatic environment.  This could be a holdover from the “needs to be in water to support its weight” theory, but I think scientists to agree that while it didn’t need to be in water, it often was anyway.




Marsh terrain sounds good, but I'll defer to the dino-experts.  I haven't kept up with them much since I was a kid.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Other than those items, I think it’s just fine as is.  Now of course, we don’t have to actually use all or even any of this stuff – it’s just something to think about.  Just ask Shade – I’m always this critical.    of course, I expect a return favor…




The man speaks truly.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 8, 2004)

Most paleontologists agree that apatosaurus and other sauropods were dry-land creatures- capable of swimming, certainly, but not semi-aquatic. And I've read at least one source suggesting that apatosaurus was less inclined to live in herds than other sauropods. 

I agree that all of the stepping-on style attacks sound like they'd fall under trample.

Demiurge out.


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## Zaster (Feb 8, 2004)

Looking at some of the older write-ups, I have to say -- please don't give this beast a bite attack.  Tail attack, yes.  Trample yes.  But with this creature's peg-like teeth, bite seems unlikely even as a defense.

For natural AC, I suggest something in the 8 to 10 range, just looking at the other dinos (especially seismosaurus).  Since we went higher than Urge's version on HD, maybe we should balance that by gravitating toward the low end on natural AC (?)

For size, I'd start at Gargantuan and maybe go Colossal at the highest levels of advancement just for flavor.

For environment... I'm not sure. This thing ate tender shoots off tree tops from what I understand.  Forests and swamps maybe?


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2004)

BTW, I'm not sure what kind of impact this may have, but here's a preview for next month's Dragon:

*New Dinosaurs*
by James Jacobs

What's bigger than a bus and can swallow a Buick whole?  Resident dinosaur expert James Jacobs offers the answer.


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

want to finish the bronto and put the rest on hold till the new dragon comes out?  it would really suck to finish half a dozen of these and find out that someone beat us to the punch.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2004)

Right now, I'm wavering between "Yes!" and "No!" on those new dinos. But I'd be willing to put the project on hold until that issue come out. One thing, though. I doubt many of the dinos in that issue will overlap. I expect to see some of the "new" dinosaurs, like threzinosaurus, baryonyx and giganotosaurus instead of old standbys.

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2004)

we'll see... i say finish the bronto, and let god sort em out.  i mean, wait and see - when does the mag come out?


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2004)

mean time, back to the bronto (i know its real name, but it helps me to call it by the misnomer, which is more familiar to most people.   )

here is an updated stat block:

*Dinosaur, Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus)*
Gargantuan Animal
Hit Dice: 26d8+214 (331 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-4 size, +9 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +19/+43
Attack: Tail slam +27 melee (3d8+18 plus thunderous snap)
Full Attack: Tail slam +27 melee (3d8+18 plus thunderous snap)
Space/Reach: 20ft/15ft
Special Attacks: Thunderous snap, trample 6d8+18
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +15, Will +10
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 11, Con 27, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +19 (+6 more ranks)
Feats: Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Toughness (x2) (+3 more)

Environment: Warm forests, plains and hills
Organization: Solitary or pair 
Challenge Rating: (10)
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 27-52 HD (Gargantuan); 53-78 HD (Colossal)
Level Advancement: ---

a few questions on that:  would small herds of 1-3 or 1-6 be out of the question?

was it not found in a marsh?  i think it might make sense to add that to the enivronment entry unless we know for sure they did not really go to swamps.

ok, no bite attack - how about a stamping/crushing sort of attack when the beast is frightened enraged, such as suggested in the 2E example.  that one had a regular trample attack (unknowing, probably unintentional on the dino's part) of 4d10 damage, but an intentional attack of 5d10.

thoughts?


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## Zaster (Feb 10, 2004)

> a few questions on that: would small herds of 1-3 or 1-6 be out of the question?




Searching around on the net, it seems no large fossil beds have been found for this guy, but they have been found for other sauropods.  So it's hard to say.  We could just throw in a herd or family number and let the GM can decide whether to use it or not.



> was it not found in a marsh? i think it might make sense to add that to the enivronment entry unless we know for sure they did not really go to swamps.




According to this guy, marsh is probably out.  Here is another link suggesting a dry environment.



> ok, no bite attack - how about a stamping/crushing sort of attack when the beast is frightened enraged, such as suggested in the 2E example. that one had a regular trample attack (unknowing, probably unintentional on the dino's part) of 4d10 damage, but an intentional attack of 5d10.




Not a bad idea...  It's been suggested that this thing could have reared up on two legs and come crashing down on an opponent with its heavy forelimbs.  Or maybe you could give it Stamp attacks like an elephant has?


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2004)

I'll bet Demiurge is right...they'll probably use "new" dinosaurs.   The old ones that have been trolling around since first edition are probably still safe to convert.

BOZ - I like the fact that you're keeping the dinosaurs' "old names" as well as the new ones.   Even if science has changed some of the creatures and their names to better reflect their nature, D&D is a fantasy game, so why not keep some of the stuff that's been refuted?


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2004)

ok, i'll leave marsh out.



			
				Zaster said:
			
		

> Or maybe you could give it Stamp attacks like an elephant has?




you know, i was actually thinking about that before i saw your post.  i got to thinking "isn't there an animal that just stomps on creatures?" and then i thought, "d'oh, sounds like Stampy from the simpsons."    i think i'll give it a 5d8 stamp+str damage.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2004)

Bart: Wow! I wish I have an elephant! 
Lisa: You did. His name was Stampy. You loved him. 
Bart: Oh yeah!

We should stat out Stampy and some of the other Simpsons creatures on April Fool's Day.


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## BOZ (Feb 11, 2004)

heheh  

as far as putting this off for later... well, how about if we go through the module X1 dinos (and prehistoric mammals), and then wait to see what comes about in Dragon.


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## BOZ (Feb 12, 2004)

posting in homebrews...


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## Zaster (Feb 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> posting in homebrews...



I love it.  Shouldn't Initiative be +0, though?

As far as using up the remaining skill points and feats are concerned,
here is what the 3.5 updated Seismosaurus gets:  
_Listen +22, Spot +21
Alertness, Awesome Blow, Diehard, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Run, and Toughness X4_

Based on this and on the other herbivorous dinos, maybe Bronto's remaining skill points should all be pumped into Listen and Spot.  Kinda boring, I admit.  Maybe someone has a better suggestion.

For the remaining 3 feats I'd add another Toughness, and then maybe Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush.  But I'm not that much of a Feats guru.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2004)

For the remaining feats, how about Ability Focus (thunderous slap), Power Attack, and Run?

I'll defer to the dino-experts on that last one, but I remember at one time scientists speculated that despite their size, the brontos actually ran rather quickly.

If not Run, then I like either Improved Overrun or Improved Bull Rush.


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## BOZ (Feb 12, 2004)

Zaster said:
			
		

> Shouldn't Initiative be +0, though?




hmm, guess i raised the Dex but forgot to fix that...


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## BOZ (Feb 12, 2004)

I agree with dropping the rest of the skills into Listen & Spot (mostly, those are the main skills that dinos have – some will have others, but these are not known to be a smart lot!)
How about raising them evenly to Listen +15, Spot +22?

For the three additional feats, well…
Thunderous Snap has a pretty high DC already, though improving that with Ability Focus couldn’t hurt.
Run might be nice, but only if that seems to be a good one for the Apatosaurus based on scientific evidence.
Power Attack or Awesome Blow would be excellent ways to take advantage of its size.
Toughness, always popular with dinosaurs, but we don’t have to rely on it.


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## Zaster (Feb 12, 2004)

Ooh!  I really like Shade's "Improved Overrun" suggestion, and I agree we don't have to rely on more Toughness if we don't want to.

Awesome Blow and its feat tree are tempting as well.

I searched around on the net for sauropod running speeds, but didn't have much luck.  Here are a couple of typical, unscholarly links that suggest they were fairly slow.  There might well be better info out there that I can't find.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/anatomy/Locomotion.shtml
http://www.cmnh.org/dinoarch/2003Oct/msg00061.html


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

so then one option is Power Attack, Improved Bull-Rush, and Awesome Blow.
failing that, we could take Improved Overrun, Power Attack, and Ability Focus.  (or substitue one of those with something else).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2004)

How about Power Attack, Improved Bull's Rush and Awesome Blow? And yes, I know the feats I originally gave the bronto are boring. But they are for all the MM dinos (too much Toughness).

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

updating in homebrews - how's it lookin?  we probably need to re-set the CR.  10 for a 26-HD creature is pretty pathetic.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2004)

CR 14 sounds about right.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 14, 2004)

CR 10 for 26 HD is sad, but the primary ability of the thing is HP. Few special attacks and a bottom-of-the-barrel AC tend to reflect into a lower CR. Especially since the seismosaurus (the only "official" D&D sauropod) has 32 HD and a CR of 11, if I recall correctly.

Demiurge out.


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## Zaster (Feb 15, 2004)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Especially since the seismosaurus (the only "official" D&D sauropod) has 32 HD and a CR of 11, if I recall correctly.




Minor correction.  Seismo is CR 12.
I think the point is valid, though.


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## Zaster (Feb 15, 2004)

A few more big animals and thier Challenge ratings for comparison:

Dire Elephant (MMII) is 20HD, AC 10, CR 10

Indricothere (FF) is 16HD, AC 19, CR 9

Dire Shark (MM) is 18HD, AC 17, CR 9

Triceratops (MM) is 16 HD, AC 18, CR 9

I'm thinking CR for our bronto might be 11 or 12 (??)


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## BOZ (Feb 16, 2004)

i like 12, but it almost seems unfortunate for the CR to be less than half the HD, so i almost want to go 13.

updating; how's it look?  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1366007#post1366007


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

CR 12 should work.  I definitely overstated it earlier, as it shouldn't outclass the seismosaurus.

Otherwise, it looks finished, except for the question mark after the weight range of 30-40 tons.  This sounds reasonable to me, but once again I'll defer to the dino-experts.


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## Zaster (Feb 18, 2004)

I've got a couple books handy:
Smithsonian Handbooks' "Dinosaurs and Prehistoric Life" says 38 1/2 tons.
Macmillan Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs & Prehistoric Animals says 33 tons.
So I think 30-40 tons is probably pretty much on the mark.

This is nit-picky on my part, but I find the following sentence really awkward:


> This creature’s name, commonly mistaken as Brontosaurus, means “thunder lizard” for the sound it makes as it walks.



How about something like, "The creature's former name, Brontosaurus, means...", ect.   More accurate, less ambiguous.  

Otherwise, the text is really good, and I think we can prolly wrap this one up.


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## BOZ (Feb 18, 2004)

i really wasn't sure how to write that line, but i definitely wanted the more regocnizable name to play a small part.    anyone want to fix that line for me?


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## Zaster (Feb 19, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i really wasn't sure how to write that line, but i definitely wanted the more regocnizable name to play a small part.    anyone want to fix that line for me?




O.K., for lack of anything better I'm just going to rip part of the Smithsonian Handbook's entry (with enough changes so that I'm not directly quoting it) 

"Apatosaurus excelsus was the dinosaur originally known as Brontosaurus; a name which means 'Thunder Lizard' and refers to the sound the beast made as it walked."


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

sounds good to me. thanks!  what you say fellas, we ready to move on to the next?  how's it looking?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

I think we're ready to move on.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

there are three more dinos in module X1, the dimetrodon, pleisosaurus, and trachodon (sorry about spelling).  i will be able to start the next one on friday or saturday.  state a preference, if you care to.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

No preference, but I wanted to remind you that you won't be able to do it on Saturday:    

http://www.enworld.org/forums/announcement.php?f=27


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

i can't follow that link (or any other normal link to these boards) while at work, what does it say?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

"This weekend, from Friday evening through to Sunday evening, EN World will be innaccessible. The whole site will be down (messageboards, news pages etc.)"


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

dang!  well, guess i better prepare in advance then.  i can still do some work, but i'm kind of limited by not being able to access the boards.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 20, 2004)

I'd like the dimetredon to go first, no real reason, except that trachodon's are boring and plesiosaurs are just lesser elasmosaurs. BTW, the trachodon is under "anatotitan" (more paleontological revisionism) in the dino-document.

Demiurge out.


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## Zaster (Feb 20, 2004)

> I'd like the dimetredon to go first



Sounds like a good choice.  Time to tackle a predator.


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

Sounds good.  We’ll do the dimey first.  Unfortunately, it and all other new conversions will most likely have to wait until the boards are turned back on, which sounds most likely like late Sunday or Monday morning.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

X1 (OD&D):

Dimetrodon
Armor Class: 5 
Hit Dice: 7 
Move: 120’ (40’) 
Attacks: 1 bite 
Damage: 2-16 

No. Appearing: 0 (1-6)
Save As: Fighter: 4
Morale: 8
Treasure Type: V
Alignment: Neutral

A dimetrodon is a sail-backed, meat-eating dinosaur. The "sail" is a comb of long bony spines connected with a skin webbing. The dimetrodon is about 10' long and weighs nearly a ton. Dimetrodons hunt most often in hills and in the drier areas of swamps.



1E MM2:

Dimetrodon

FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 2
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 12"/ /6"
HIT DICE: 3 to 5
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO, OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE /ATTACK: 6-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (9' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
	Attack/Defense Modes:
		Nil/nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE:

The “sail-backed” dimetrodon is a fierce predator of the lower Permian period. It is alligator-like and is actually a reptile, not a dinosaur. Its ability to swim is questionable but likely. Its powerful bite makes up for its lack of claw attacks.


FR3:

Dimetrodon

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Nil

NO, APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12/6
HIT DICE: 3 to 5
THACO: 3-4 HD: 17, 5 HD: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 6-15 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 65-175

The sail-backed dimetrodon is a fierce predator and an example of the mammal-like reptiles. Its large fin works like a solar heater, allowing the dimetrodon to heat up to active temperature hours before its prey. Its ability to swim is questionable but likely. The dimetrodon's alligator-like jaws give it a powerful bite (3d4+3 points of damage), more than making up for its lack of claw attacks.


MCA2

Dimetrodon

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO, APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12, Sw 6
HIT DICE: 3 to 5
THACO: 3-4 HD: 17, 5 HD: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3d4+3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 65-175

The sail-backed dimetrodon is a fierce predator and an example of the mammal-like reptiles. Its large fin works like a solar heater, allowing the dimetrodon to heat up to active temperature hours before its prey. Its ability to swim is questionable but likely. The dimetrodon's alligator-like jaws give it a powerful bite (3d4+3 points of damage), more than making up for its lack of claw attacks.


And here is demiurge’s conversion:

*Dimetrodon*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30ft, swim 10ft
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d8+6)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d8+6)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +2*, Move Silently +5*, Spot +3, Swim +12
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Warm marsh
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large), 9-12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This bulky reptile has a short jaw packed with conical teeth and a long colorful sail runs down the length of its back.

Not actually a dinosaur, the dimetrodon is a primitive reptile with slightly mammalian features.

Dimetrodons average 10 feet in length and about 1 ton in weight. They live in marshes, where they hunt large amphibians and other reptiles. They are competent swimmers, but are slow in the water and swim only to move from one patch of dry land to another.

Combat
Dimetrodons attack from ambush, grabbing hold of their prey and shaking it until it dies. It avoids groups of creatures, preferring to attack ones that are separated from their allies.

Improved Grab (Ex): In order to use this ability, a dimetrodon must hit with a bite attack. If it hits, it can make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it deals automatic bite damage each round.

Skills: A dimetrodon gains a +4 racial bonus on all Hide and Move Silently checks made in marshes.
A dimetrodon has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

Ummm...I'd say Demiurge nailed it.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

gonna have me a look-over.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

Issues from past versions:

Is this one strictly solitary?  We had solitary or pair from the 1E&2E versions, and groups of 1-6 from OD&D.

The 1E/2E (when they agree, I’ll call that “AD&D” from now on) versions had their swim speed at 6, which would be 20 now.

They had a slightly higher AC in previous versions: 5 in OD&D (15 now) and 4 in AD&D (16 now).

HD:  not really an issue, as the AD&D versions gave them 3-5 HD.  But the OD&D had 7 HD – such discrepancies between the editions seem common, especially with the prehistoric animals.

Does this have any basis in scientific evidence:


> Its large fin works like a solar heater, allowing the dimetrodon to heat up to active temperature hours before its prey.



and if so, does it have any useful game application?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 24, 2004)

The sail fin = heat-sink is the most common theory as to it's purpose, but there isn't really any game purpose to it. I haven't heard any evidence for dimetrodons living in groups, and I still don't think it's entirely appropriate.

Demiurge out.


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## Zaster (Feb 25, 2004)

I agree there probably isn't a game purpose to Dimey's sail.  If there were, then you'd expect game mechanics to deal with the thermoregulation of all the basking reptiles. _Yuck._

I like Demiurge's conversion, but all the sources I've looked at suggest a weight of about 800 lb. or less.  It should still be a Large animal though, so not a big issue. 

Here are a few quick search results mentioning size & weight:
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/synapsids/pelycosaurs.html]
http://www.psychosaurus.com/plain/dino/dimetrodon.html
http://yahooligans.yahoo.com/content/science/dinosaurs/dino_card/15.html

I could see bumping the natural AC up by one just to bring AC in line  with previous editions.

As for whether it lived in groups or not, I was hoping to find fossil trackway information that would shed some light on that, but no joy. I'd say go with 1-2 just to stick by previous editions.

I don't know what to say about swim speed.  There used to be a theory that the sail was used for swimming, but that's been pretty much debunked.


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2004)

i adjusted the swim speed and AC, and pretty much otherwise left it as demiurge had it.  posting in homebrews, let me know if it's kosher.


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## Zaster (Feb 25, 2004)

Looks pretty good from here.  Kudos to demiurge.

Natural AC is now greater than a croc but on par with a boar.  This sucker's pretty tough.  



> Though not actually a dinosaur, it is commonly associated with the same era from which such beasts came.




Since Dimey preceded the earliest dinosaurs, it might be best to remove the association with dinos altogether.  But from a gaming perspective that might be getting into the realm of nit-picking.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 25, 2004)

Zaster said:
			
		

> Looks pretty good from here.  Kudos to demiurge.



Thank you. 

Now, what's next? The trachodon/anatosaurus/anatotitan or the plesiosaurus?

Demiurge out.


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## Zaster (Feb 25, 2004)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Now, what's next? The trachodon/anatosaurus/anatotitan or the plesiosaurus?



Given that choice, I vote for Anatosaurus.  They both seem pretty inoffensive, though.  

Any chance we could take on a deinosuchus or suchomimus at some point?


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2004)

sure thing.    i want to get those other two out of the way first.


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## Zaster (Feb 26, 2004)

If noone else wants to take a crack at this, I'll give it a try.  I hope next month's Dragon magazine doesn't steal our thunder by giving us a generic duckbill.

Anatosaurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 10D8+53 (98 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class:  15 (-2 size, +7 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15 
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+24
Attack:  Slam +14 melee (1D8+13)
Full Attack:   Slam +14 melee (1D8+13)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks:  -
Special Qualities:  Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +4
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills:  Hide ??, Spot ??, Listen ??, Swim ??*
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (Listen), Toughness 
Environment:  Warm forest and marsh 
Organization:  Solitary or herd (5-8)
Challenge Rating:  5
Treasure:  None
Alignment:  Always nuetral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge); 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)

Skills:  *Anatosaurus has a +8 bonus on all Swim checks made to perform a special action or avoid a hazard.  It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered.


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## BOZ (Feb 27, 2004)

here's demiurge's version, just to keep discussion alive.  i'll post the earlier stats when i get a moment of free time in which to do it.

Anatotitan
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+90 (144 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (-2 size, -1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+25
Attack: Tail slam +15 melee (1d8+12)
Full Attack: Tail slam +15 melee (1d8+12)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Trample 2d10+12
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +7, Will +5
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 9, Con 24, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +8, Swim +13
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness (x2)
Environment: Temperate and cold plains
Organization: Solitary, pair or herd (6-36)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 13-24 HD (Huge), 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This massive creature has a leathery hide, long slender limbs and a wide beak somewhat like that of a duck.

Anatotitans are huge herbivorous ornithischians that are generally harmless unless provoked.

The average anatotitan is 30 to 40 feet long and can weigh up to 3 tons. Despite its bulk, it is shy and not aggressive. Anatotitans, like other hadrosaurs, rear their young and have large herds consisting of one or more families. They are quite resistant to cold temperatures, despite their reptilian appearance.

Combat
Anatotitans avoid combat whenever possible, preferring to flee from confrontation. If their young are threatened, however, they fight with their powerful tails.

Trample (Ex): An anatotitan can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Large or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 24 half) or take 2d10+12 damage. The save DC is Strength based.


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## Zaster (Feb 27, 2004)

Looks like the main difference is Environment.

I think we should err on the side of making environment pretty inclusive, since anato's stats could be used to represent practically any duckbill.  How about "any plain, forest, or swamp"?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2004)

I'm not sure that the anatotitan should be a generic hadrosaur, as there is a lambeosaurus in the MMII, which I also statted, and is in the doc Boz has. Also, most evidence points to duckbills feeding mainly on conifers and cycads, and living on dry ground, so I'm not sure that marsh should be part of the terrain.

Demiurge out.


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## Zaster (Feb 27, 2004)

> I'm not sure that the anatotitan should be a generic hadrosaur, as there is a lambeosaurus in the MMII



O.K.,  I didn't realize that.  I'd honestly prefer one generic creature since duckbills don't seem that diverse in thier capabilities, but its all good.



> Also, most evidence points to duckbills feeding mainly on conifers and cycads, and living on dry ground, so I'm not sure that marsh should be part of the terrain.



You may be right.  The Smithsonion Handbook on dinosaurs puts Hadrosaurus in "swamps and forests", which is the only reason I mention it.  Most of the other duckbills are indeed described as woodland critters.


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## BOZ (Feb 27, 2004)

which of those is the correct name, BTW?


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## Filby (Feb 27, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> which of those is the correct name, BTW?




I'm not as up on paleontology as I was when I was a kid, but I believe that _Anatotitan_ is currently the accepted name. The creature commonly known as _Anatosaurus_ was recently found to be merely a different species of _Edmontonsaurus_, I think. Not sure.


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## Zaster (Feb 27, 2004)

whoops.  Beaten to the punch.
Here's a website that sorts the mess out a little.  Alot of this is stuff I didn't know.
http://www.cybercomm.net/~rmarguls/stamps/trachodon.html

But it seems to hinge alot on tooth characteristics of interest only to paleontologists.  From a gaming perspective, I'm not sure how riveting some of these distinctions are going to be.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

found this link, have no idea how helpful it will be: http://66.34.111.89/Eric/conversions/trachodon.rtf


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2004)

From the thread on the April Dragon issue.


> Dungeons & Dinosaurs - 11 dinosaurs to add to your MM. Covers the Compsognathus, _Dimetrodon_ (emphasis mine), Diplodocus, Gigantosaurus, Helicoprion, Liopleurodon, Pachycephalosaurus, Parasaurolophus, Pteranodon, Rhamphorhynchus, and Stegosaurus; also dinosaur companions and familiars.




Oh well. At least we know what's already been done now.
Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

well, being that i added dimey mere moments before i read your post here, i'd say it's still fair game.  barely.    still, now we know that some were "old favorites", while some are new discoveries for those of us who don't study dinos a lot at least.


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## Zaster (Mar 5, 2004)

That's more dinos than I would have thought.  I hope "gigantosaurus" is really giganotosaurus.  Picture a T.Rex but about 20% larger and with usably long arms.


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

> Pachycephalosaurus




Elephant Head Lizard?


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## Filby (Mar 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Elephant Head Lizard?




*grin* Thick-headed lizard. (Pachyderm means 'thick skinned'). See here.


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## BOZ (Mar 6, 2004)

ok, got all the previous stats assembled together.  i'm posting a slightly modified (not significantly) version of DU's anato in homebrews.  look over everything we've got and tell me how we're doing.  i don't really have much of a complaint with what we've got so far.  discuss.  


1E MM: 

Anatosaurus (Trachodon)

FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPREARING: 2-72
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 12"
HIT DICE: 12
% IN LAIR: Nit
TREASURE TYPE: Nit
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (30' + long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
	Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

These are duck-billed dinosaurs of the plant eating sort. They run from attack; their only defense is by a lashing toil.

MC3

		Trachodon
CLIMATE/ TERRAIN: 	Any land
	FREQUENCY:	Common
ORGANIZATION:	Herd
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Day
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE:	Non- (0)
TREASURE:	Nil
ALIGNMENT:	Nil

NO. APPEARING:	2-12
ARMOR CLASS:	5
MOVEMENT:	12
HIT DICE:	12
THAC0:	9
NO. OF ATTACKS:	1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES:	Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	Nil
SIZE: G (30’ + long)
MORALE:	Steady (11)
XP VALUE:	2,000

Trachodon (Anatosaurus)

This duckbilled dinosaur is the archetype of its kind – the name anatosaurus means "duck lizard." A peaceful, four-ton plant eater, the anatosaurus runs from attack, its only defense is its lashing tail.

Enemies include any of the carnosaurs, but especially tyrannosaurus rex.

Other hadrosaurs, related to anatosaurus, include the lambeosaurus.


MCA2:

Trachodon 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Herd
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 12
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (30' + long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Trachodon

This duckbilled dinosaur, also called the anatosaurus is the is the archetype of its kind - anatosaurus means "duck lizard." It is a peaceful, four-ton plant eater that runs from attack; its only defense is its lashing tail. It is as at home in shallow water as it is on land, grazing on water plants and floating ferns as easily as it grinds up leaves and pine needles it finds in forested areas. Its enemies include any of the carnosaurs, especially the tvrannosaurus rex. The trachodon is a hadrosaur, and thus related to the lambeosaurus.


X1:

Trachodon
Armor Class:	5	
Hit Dice:	14	
Move:	120' (20')	
Attacks:	1 tail	
Damage:	2-12	

No. Appearing:	0(1-6)
Save As:	Fighter: 7
Morale:	6
Treasure Type:	Nil
Alignment:	Neutral

A trachodon is a duck-billed dinosaur that stands 15-18' tall. This beast runs erect on its hind legs. This dinosaur only cats plants, but may be dangerous if enraged.


and here's a lil picture to go along with this fella:


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## Filby (Mar 6, 2004)

Hm... that's actually a picture of a lambeosaurus. An anatosaurus doesn't have any kind of a crest on its head.


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## BOZ (Mar 6, 2004)

i didn't draw it.  that's just the picture that went along with the text.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

OK, updated in homebrews... lookin done?


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## Zaster (Mar 10, 2004)

Looks pretty good  , although I have to admit that the Dragon Magazine Parasaurolophus stats are probably going to fulfill all of my endlessly exciting duckbill-chasing adventure fantasies from now on.

The only thing I can see on Anatotitan offhand is that it possibly could use a swim speed (since it has the relevent skill).

BTW, after seeing how they muffed up (er, _interpreted_) the dinosaur sizes in Dragon, I now regret suggesting a Gargantuan size category for Apatosaurus.  Then again, I'm still trying to figure out how a diplodocus is stronger and better armored than a seismosaurus.  Argh... ignore the topic drift...


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2004)

My guess on the better-armored diplodocus is that they (wisely, IMO) decided to ignore the siesmosaurus as a precedent.

And I gave the anatotitan a Swim skill without a Swim speed because though they were probably decent swimmers when they had to, they weren't aquatic or amphibious animals.

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

what we got is lookin good then?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2004)

It looks complete to me.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

OK then, guess we’re done here.   next is the plesiosaurus.  I’ll start that one when I can find the free time…


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

1E MM: 

Plesiosaurus

FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 20
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (50'- long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil'
	Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The plesiosaurus strongly resembles a snake wearing a turtle's body (sans shell). They tend to be very aggressive and attack anything. The creature's neck is about one-third of its total length, and it is strong and fast. In a marine battle it can strike with its powerful fore flippers for 2-12 points of damage with each.


MC3:

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any ocean
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Nil

NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 20
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (8' + long)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 120

Plesiosaurus

The plesiosaurus strongly resembles a snake wearing a turtle's body (sans shell). It tends to be very aggressive, attacking anything it notices. While not as long overall as its relative, the elasmosaurus, the plesiosaurus has a neck that is about one-third of its total length. The creature is strong and fast, and highly maneuverable in the water - it can "turn on a silver piece" to lunge at its prey. In a marine battle it can strike with its powerful fore flippers, inflicting 2d6 points of damage with each.


MCA2:

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any ocean
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: Sw 15
HIT DICE: 20
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Flippers
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (18' + long)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 12,000

Plesiosaurus
The plesiosaurus strongly resembles a snake with a turtle's body (sans shell). It tends to be very aggressive, attacking anything it notices.  While not as long overall as its relative, the elasmosaurus, the plesiosaurus has a neck that is one-third of its total length. The creature is strong and fast, and highly maneuverable in the water – it can "turn on a silver piece" to lunge at its prey. In a marine battle it can strike with its powerful fore flippers, inflicting 2d6 points of damage with each.


X1:

Plesiosaurus
Armor Class:	6	
Hit Dice:	16	
Move:		
	Swimming:	150' (50')
Attacks:	1 bite	
Damage:	4-24	
No. Appearing:	0(1-3)
Save As:	Fighter: 8
Morale:	9
Treasure Type:	Nil
Alignment:	Neutral

A plesiosaurus is a fish-eating, lake-dwelling dinosaur, usually about 30'-50' long. It has an extremely long neck and a large snake-like head filled with sharp teeth. This dinosaur has small flippers in place of legs to aid in swimming. It is aggressive and can overturn small boats and rafts.


and here is demiurge’s version:

Plesiosaurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+33 (60 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20ft (4 squares), swim 50ft
Armor Class: 13 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+18
Attack: Bite +8 melee (2d6+9)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (2d6+9)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Skills: Hide -3*, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +14
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Toughness
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair or herd (3-12)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Huge), 13-18 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This beast has a thick, ovoid body with fins instead of legs and a log, snaky neck and tail. The neck takes up about one third of the creature’s total length.

The plesiosaurus is a smaller relative of the elasmosaurus.

A plesiosaurus is around 20 feet in length from nose to tail, and much of this is neck and tail. They weigh about 3000 pounds and are more aggressive than their larger relatives. Although they eat fish almost exclusively, they are easily disturbed by other large moving objects in their territory, like ships.

Combat
Plesiosaurs attack exclusively with their powerful bites. They favor ambush tactics when hunting and many lookouts don’t know they’re in plesiosaur territory until it’s too late.

Skills: Plesiosaurs receive a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks made underwater. 

A plesiosaurus has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Filby (Mar 16, 2004)

First of all, I think it may be best to borrow from Demiurge's flavor text for the description and avoid the references to snakes and turtles. That just strikes me as weird.


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

> In a marine battle it can strike with its powerful fore flippers, inflicting 2d6 points of damage with each.



Should we add this, dino-experts?


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## Filby (Mar 16, 2004)

Mm, I'd say not. Plesiosaurus had a sturdier build than elasmosaurus, but is limbs were essentially for the same use as a seal's or a penguin's.

Whales can't do damage with their flippers, do they? I don't have MM handy. If they do, I'd say it fits here; otherwise, I think it's best to disregard it.


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## BOZ (Mar 17, 2004)

some get tail slaps, some get bites.  i was wondering about the flippers myself.

now here's one thing i need to ask about; should it get some kind of attacks against ships since the text hints at it?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2004)

Elasmosauruses in the MM get neither capsize attacks or fin slaps. I say that the plesiosaurus, for continuity's sake, shouldn't either.

And I caught a typo in my description. Should be "long", not "log".

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Mar 17, 2004)

LOL  but I thought their necks were made of wood.  

One question before I get too heavily involved with comparing the differences:

The various AD&D versions gave them 20 HD and the OD&D version gave them 16 HD.  Aren’t we selling them a bit short with 6 HD?  The sizes given vary wildly, but I notice that in AD&D the somewhat larger elasmosaurus was actually given fewer HD (15) than the plesiosaurus.  Using the same sort of logic that often gets thrown at me, does it make sense for a 20-foot long Huge creature to have only 6 Hit Dice?  

Also, wouldn’t the Aquatic subtype make sense?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> The various AD&D versions gave them 20 HD and the OD&D version gave them 16 HD. Aren’t we selling them a bit short with 6 HD? The sizes given vary wildly, but I notice that in AD&D the somewhat larger elasmosaurus was actually given fewer HD (15) than the plesiosaurus. Using the same sort of logic that often gets thrown at me, does it make sense for a 20-foot long Huge creature to have only 6 Hit Dice?



I'd definitely encourage a HD boost.   Believe it or not, that chart that always gets thrown at you lists 4 HD as the minimum for a Huge creature!   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, wouldn’t the Aquatic subtype make sense?



You would think so, but both the elasmosaurus and the liopleurodon in this month's Dragon lack the subtype, and even say that they breathe air.


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## BOZ (Mar 17, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd definitely encourage a HD boost.   Believe it or not, that chart that always gets thrown at you lists 4 HD as the minimum for a Huge creature!




bah!  widicuwous!  




> You would think so, but both the elasmosaurus and the liopleurodon in this month's Dragon lack the subtype, and even say that they breathe air.




yeah, i looked back and saw that.  it's cool, if they breathe air.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> bah! widicuwous!



You're preaching to the choir, brother BOZ.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, i looked back and saw that. it's cool, if they breathe air.



They gave the liopleurodon a "hold breath" ability, though.


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## BOZ (Mar 17, 2004)

now that might be cool.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2004)

Also worth noting, the liopleurodon doesn't have a "boatcrushing" attack, nor does the elasmosaurus.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> now that might be cool.



Here it is:

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A liopleurodon can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 8 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

ok, we can probably take advantage of that ability.  

now, did we agree on a HD boost?  did 15 HD sound good?

i see that demiurge gave it a land speed - did this thing go on land at all??

i think, after that, i might just be satisfied with this one.


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## Filby (Apr 2, 2004)

Yeah, it's believed that plesiosaurs nested on beaches, much like modern seals. So a land speed is appropriate.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

OK, that makes sense.  But, is 20 too fast for a creature that only nested on beaches?

This is the last time I will bring this issue up, but I want to settle it for good, in my own mind at the very least.  



			
				1E MM said:
			
		

> Elasmosaurus
> HIT DICE: 15
> SIZE: L (50’ long)
> 
> ...







			
				MC3 said:
			
		

> Elasmosaurus
> HIT DICE: 15
> SIZE: G (50’ long)
> 
> ...






			
				MCA2 said:
			
		

> Plesiosaurus
> HIT DICE: 20
> SIZE: H (18' + long)






			
				X1 said:
			
		

> Plesiosaurus
> Hit Dice:	16
> “…usually about 30'-50' long.”




OK, there is an obviously inconsistency with size, as is common enough in D&D dinos.  However, one thing that is not inconsistent is that, while the elasmosaurus is usually represented as larger than (or no larger than) the plesiosaurus, the plesiosaurus always has more HD.  So, since the elasmosaurus was reduced to 10 HD in 3.5, I will go with an equal reduction for the plesiosaurus, making it 15 HD.

If no one has a better argument for this issue, I’m going with 15.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

ok, went with my gut feeling and gave it 15 HD.  i only adjusted its HD, and anything else directly affected by that.  posted in homebrews, have a look.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

no comments on this one?

have we lost the dino-fans completely?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

I'm a dino-fan, but no dino-expert, but I agree with the 15 HD you proposed.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

oh well, no sense in keeping these guys waiting.  let's finish em up.

Skills: Hide -3*, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +14 (plus 9 more ranks)
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Toughness (need 3 more)

any suggestions?    for one thing, hide could stand to be buffed up...


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

Yeah, buff up Hide.  

Power Attack, Diehard and Combat Reflexes (take advantage of that long neck).   Speaking of which, how about giving it 15 ft. reach with its ridiculously-long neck?


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

can't really post in HB at the moment (but i will later today), so how about a new CR based on this stat block?

*Dinosaur, Plesiosaurus*
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 15d8+75 (142 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), swim 50 ft
Armor Class: 13 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+25
Attack: Bite +15 melee (2d6+9)
Full Attack: Bite +15 melee (2d6+9)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft (15 ft with bite)
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +6
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Skills: Hide +6*, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +14
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Endurance, Power Attack, Toughness


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

CR 8?  It is better than elasmo at CR 7, but not better than T-Rex at CR 8.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

tough call!  we can go for 8 then, i think.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

and updated in homebrews.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

You're missing the 3 hit points for Toughness.   Other than that, I think she's ready for her maiden voyage.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

cool.    any requests?  (must be something that has had stats in at least one edition of D&D)


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## Shade (May 14, 2004)

Well, since there have been no takers in over a month, here's a request.

Kronosaurus, from Dragon 187.

Also, note that the "Dinosaurs: Mesozoic Monsters From the Mightiest to the Weakest" article in Dragon 112 continues on p. 66.


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## Raven Crowking (Nov 22, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> cool.    any requests?  (must be something that has had stats in at least one edition of D&D)





Yes!  I remember the Hallucingenia (sp?) appearing in one issue of Dragon long ago (206 or 209, I think).  I'd love to see updated stats.


RC


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## Raven Crowking (Dec 10, 2004)

Bump


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2004)

don't worry, i saw ya there.    all in due time, if you're patient...


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## Knight Otu (Dec 10, 2004)

Actually... (Jester's index be thanked!)


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## Raven Crowking (Dec 12, 2004)

Thanks for the Hallucigenia link!



RC


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2004)

sorry, things were getting so off the topic, i had to split the thread.


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2004)

Excerpt from Gregory W. Detwiler’s article “Creatures That Time Forgot,” from Dragon #204 (Apr 1994).  Keep in mind that the actual fossils are actually smaller than Tiny, and the stats he came up with were increased greatly to make more effective monsters. These monsters were written up for two game systems simultaneously, if you were wondering about the weird wording in places.  There were over a dozen creatures in this article, so I’m only working on the 3 varieties of hallucigenia, as requested.

Will make some stat blocks soon.  I think the first issue is… Vermin or Animal?

Here we go:

*****

To simplify the listings, all creatures will conform to the following AD&D statistics unless otherwise noted:

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Shallow sea floor
DIET: Carnivore/Scavenger
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil

All these animals walk or crawl on the bottom of the sea, though some can swim. For game purposes, I’ve assumed that some can come out of the water for short periods of time. 

Hallucigenia
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 9
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 9
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10/1d6/1d4 (x7)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Trample
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: H (25’ long, 18’ high at the shoulder)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 3,000

Hallucigenia is well named. Totally unprecedented, it is so strange that no one’s sure about anything regarding this creature. It is assumed that the rounded thing at one end is the head. The thing on the tail end has an opening, and may well be a mouth and throat. Gould has suggested that perhaps this “animal” is only a complicated organ from a much larger creature. Keeping all this in mind, let’s finish this listing.
Like certain other creatures, Hallucigenia may leave the water for an hour or more at a time, wreaking havoc on the local flora and fauna. It has nine standard attacks: the seven back-mounted, pincer-tipped tentacles do 1d4 points of damage each; the cluster of six small tentacles inflict total damage of 1d6; and the throat/tail/whatever can constrict for 1d10 points. In addition, the monster has the option of walking over a prone opponent. Its legs (if that’s what they are) are so sharp that each one does 1d8 points of damage, and Hallucigenia has fourteen of them. That’s a maximum of 112 points of damage for one series of attacks! Remember to roll each attack separately. If the creature is fighting other foes at the same time, we have another 44 points of potential damage. No matter how you look at it, a monster that can dish out 156 points of damage in one combat sequence is a lot of monster!


Hallucigenia, cave
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 2
HIT DICE: 4
 THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d12 +2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Blood drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: S (3’ long)
MORALE: Average (9)
XP VALUE: 420

This subspecies of Hallucigenia has evolved to live in caverns on dry land, using its tentacles to climb slowly among the stalactites. It is a pure carnivore, subsisting solely on the blood of its prey.
The creature wraps its tail-tentacles around a stalactite hanging over a likely passage or intersection. When prey appears, the cave Hallucigenia drops down, swinging at the victim while its “tail” stretches to several times its length. AD&D game PCs have a +2 penalty on surprise rolls against this attack. The fourteen spines (or “legs”) slam into the prey, doing up to 14 points of damage. After the initial strike, the Hallucigenia’s powerful tail draws up both predator and prey among the stalactites, where the victim can be drained at leisure. Each combat sequence that the victim is on the spines after the initial strike, he will take 14 points of damage due to blood drain until he is freed (he cannot free himself) or dies.
Hallucigenia subsists only on the victim’s blood, and when it is drained, it drops the body to the cavern floor and leaves it for more conventional predators and scavengers to devour. Thus, the remains of previous victims might provide a warning for alert characters strolling through the area (Wisdom or Intuition checks as appropriate), though not enough to tell them from which direction the imminent attack will come.


Hallucigenia, acidic
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 4
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 13
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 (x13)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Acid jet
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Resistance to acid
SIZE: L (8’ long)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Here’s another land-dwelling subspecies of Hallucigenia, one that actively hunts its prey. When it corners its prey, or is attacked by an enemy before it can turn around, it rears up on its four rear pairs of legs and lunges forward to counterattack. It can strike with its front three pairs of spinelike legs and all seven pincer-tipped tentacles at once. Each attack does 1d4 points of damage.
When its prey has been slain, Hallucigenia squirts digestive acid on it from the hollow tube that is its tail, softening the body enough for the tentacle pincers—its true mouths—to tear it apart and devour it. If pressed, the creature also uses this as an offensive weapon, one that does 2d8 points of damage. Effective range is ten meters (or 30’ in AD&D terms), and the acid is a thin jet several inches wide, only wide enough to hit a single foe. AD&D characters can avoid this attack by making a successful save vs. breath weapons. This jet may be used three times a day. Due to its particular metabolism, Hallucigenia is immune to all acid-based attacks.


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2004)

Um...wow.  This is quite odd.

I know the thread is called prehistoric _animals_, but this strikes me as more aberrant than most aberrations!


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2004)

scientists have apparently been able to figure out very little about these creatures.  _technically_ we could go and make them aberrations, as the "real" creatures were only palm-sized or so, and these things are true monstrosities... 

what do people say, too weird to be an animal?  vermin or aberration?


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## Knight Otu (Dec 13, 2004)

Well, technically, Animal can be used for giant-sized version of the appropriate animal.  Kunimatyu made them aberrations, and you could make a good case for the vermin type, as well.


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2004)

A rose by any other name...

I'd go with aberration, but I could easily be swayed into vermin territory.


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## BOZ (Dec 14, 2004)

OK, my case for vermin then.  

Since, at least in theory, these things were real living creatures, that rules out aberration.  as Knight Otu said, giant-sized creatures still have the same type as their lesser kin (as long as you don't make any other serious changes).  since their intelligence is so low, and their minds probably alien like insects, i would say vermin would win out over animal.

sounds good or no?


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2004)

Sounds good.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 14, 2004)

Ayuppa. Vermin.


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## BOZ (Dec 14, 2004)

some preliminary stats for the hallucigenia:

*Hallucigenia*
Huge Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 9d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-2 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: “Tail” +X melee (1d10+X) and 6 tentacles +X melee (1) and 7 pincer-tentacles (1d4+X)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: constrict, trample/pierce
Special Qualities: amphibious?, darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 
Feats:  (Multiattack)

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or 1-4
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 10-18 HD (Huge); 19-27 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---



*Hallucigenia, Cave*
Small Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 4d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 5 ft (1 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 14 spines +X melee (1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Blood drain
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 
Feats: 

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or 1-12
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Small); 9-12 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: ---



*Hallucigenia, Acidic*
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 5d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 3 spines +X melee (1d4+X) and 4 tentacles +X melee (1d4+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Acid jet
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, immunity to acid
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: ---


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## reapersaurus (Dec 14, 2004)

I just found this thread.
About Apatosaurus:
I guess no one remembers my well-received 3E Sauropod write-up years ago...  *pout*  

It's here in case you'd want to revisit the entry.

I didn't approach them like a single-species (Apatosaurus as a different entry from Brachiosaurus, etc). I think they possess enough similarities that their fighting styles, abilities and attributes would be similar enough as long as they were the same size category.
So I detailed each size category (Large thru Collosal).

I like that demiurge thought a sonic-like tail-whip attack would be fun. 
So did I.   
Also, a Rear-back attack would be seriouusly damaging if anyone would be silly enough to stay around long enough for them to land on them.


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2004)

thanks reaper - i'll have a good look at that sooner or later.


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2004)

Let’s go through these one at a time, since they are not overly complex.

Hallucigenia
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 9
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 9
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10/1d6/1d4 (x7)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Trample
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: H (25’ long, 18’ high at the shoulder)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 3,000

Hallucigenia is well named. Totally unprecedented, it is so strange that no one’s sure about anything regarding this creature. It is assumed that the rounded thing at one end is the head. The thing on the tail end has an opening, and may well be a mouth and throat. Gould has suggested that perhaps this “animal” is only a complicated organ from a much larger creature. Keeping all this in mind, let’s finish this listing.
Like certain other creatures, Hallucigenia may leave the water for an hour or more at a time, wreaking havoc on the local flora and fauna. It has nine standard attacks: the seven back-mounted, pincer-tipped tentacles do 1d4 points of damage each; the cluster of six small tentacles inflict total damage of 1d6; and the throat/tail/whatever can constrict for 1d10 points. In addition, the monster has the option of walking over a prone opponent. Its legs (if that’s what they are) are so sharp that each one does 1d8 points of damage, and Hallucigenia has fourteen of them. That’s a maximum of 112 points of damage for one series of attacks! Remember to roll each attack separately. If the creature is fighting other foes at the same time, we have another 44 points of potential damage. No matter how you look at it, a monster that can dish out 156 points of damage in one combat sequence is a lot of monster!

So…

*Hallucigenia*
Huge Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 9d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-2 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: “Tail” +X melee (1d10+X) and 6 tentacles +X melee (1) and 7 pincer-tentacles (1d4+X)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: constrict, trample/pierce
Special Qualities: amphibious?, darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 
Feats:  (Multiattack as bonus)

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or 1-4
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 10-18 HD (Huge); 19-27 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---

“Like certain other creatures, Hallucigenia may leave the water for an hour or more at a time, wreaking havoc on the local flora and fauna.”

Amphibious SQ, or something more like a reverse hold breath?

“the throat/tail/whatever can constrict for 1d10 points”

standard constrict attack, I’m sure.

“In addition, the monster has the option of walking over a prone opponent. Its legs (if that’s what they are) are so sharp that each one does 1d8 points of damage, and Hallucigenia has fourteen of them. That’s a maximum of 112 points of damage for one series of attacks! Remember to roll each attack separately. If the creature is fighting other foes at the same time, we have another 44 points of potential damage. No matter how you look at it, a monster that can dish out 156 points of damage in one combat sequence is a lot of monster!”

at first it sounds a bit like a trample attack, although this is not truly the case.  It works a bit similarly, but only just a bit.  I’d say that as part of its normal movement, it may “walk” on any single creature in its threat range (which is decent, since it is Huge) – this subjects the creature to 14 individual leg/spine attacks which do 1d8 damage each if they hit.  And, what’s worse, it can still make its normal attack routine against other foes.

To keep it simple, instead of 14 separate attack rolls, we could just make the damage 14d8 for such a trample.  I’d say this affects only Large or smaller creatures.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 20, 2004)

I'd round the speed up to 30 ft.

 Water Dependent, like the Sahuagin?



> To keep it simple, instead of 14 separate attack rolls, we could just make the damage 14d8 for such a trample. I’d say this affects only Large or smaller creatures.



 Sounds ok at first glance.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I'd round the speed up to 30 ft.



Agreed.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Water Dependent, like the Sahuagin?



Good call!



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Sounds ok at first glance.



Same here.   

Ability scores of similar-sized vermin:
Huge Monstrous Centipede Str 17, Dex 15, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Huge Monstrous Scorpion Str 23, Dex 10, Con 16, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Huge Monstrous Spider Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2

I'd place it somewhere between the centiped and the scorpion, giving it scores of Str 20, Dex 13, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I'd round the speed up to 30 ft.




if I had to choose, I’d actually lower it to 20 ft to keep it slower than a human.  



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Water Dependent, like the Sahuagin?




duh!  Yes, that is the answer.  

Water Dependent (Ex): A hallucigenia can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules on page 304 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide).



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Ability scores of similar-sized vermin:
> Huge Monstrous Centipede Str 17, Dex 15, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
> Huge Monstrous Scorpion Str 23, Dex 10, Con 16, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
> Huge Monstrous Spider Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
> ...




that’s fine.

For the trample, I’m thinking of basing it more like a gelatinous cube’s engulf – since it would basically be walking right over you, rather than charging into you.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if I had to choose, I’d actually lower it to 20 ft to keep it slower than a human.



You big softie.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> You big softie.




come on, you have to give the poor humans a slim chance.  

“Piercing Trample” (Ex): A hallucigenia can walk on a single creature of Large or smaller size within its threat range as a move action.  It may also make a full attack action in the same round.  A hallucigenia’s fourteen legs are very sharp, and deal 14d8 points of piercing damage to any creature it walks on.  The opponent can make an attack of opportunity against the hallucigenia, but if it does so it is not entitled to a saving throw.  If the opponent does not attempt an attack of opportunity it can make a DC X Reflex save to halve the damage.  The save DC is Strength-based.

Now, we have a saving throw instead of attack rolls.  Natural armor won’t help you, but damage reduction will (assuming piercing weapons don’t break your DR).

but, with this line, “In addition, the monster has the option of walking over a prone opponent.” Do you think we should limit it to only helpless opponents?


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## Knight Otu (Dec 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> come on, you have to give the poor humans a slim chance.



 The human can always take the Run or Dash feat. Or move to live in the desert or mountains. 



> “Piercing Trample” (Ex): A hallucigenia can walk on a single creature of Large or smaller size within its threat range as a move action. It may also make a full attack action in the same round. A hallucigenia’s fourteen legs are very sharp, and deal 14d8 points of piercing damage to any creature it walks on. The opponent can make an attack of opportunity against the hallucigenia, but if it does so it is not entitled to a saving throw. If the opponent does not attempt an attack of opportunity it can make a DC X Reflex save to halve the damage. The save DC is Strength-based.
> 
> Now, we have a saving throw instead of attack rolls. Natural armor won’t help you, but damage reduction will (assuming piercing weapons don’t break your DR).
> 
> but, with this line, “In addition, the monster has the option of walking over a prone opponent.” Do you think we should limit it to only helpless opponents?



  Here's the normal trample ability for reference:



> *Trample (Ex)*: As a full-round action, a creature with this special attack can move up to twice its speed and literally run over any opponents at least one size category smaller than itself. The creature merely has to move over the opponents in its path; any creature whose space is completely covered by the trampling creature’s space is subject to the trample attack. If a target’s space is larger than 5 feet, it is only considered trampled if the trampling creature moves over all the squares it occupies. If the trampling creature moves over only some of a target’s space, the target can make an attack of opportunity against the trampling creature at a –4 penalty. A trampling creature that accidentally ends its movement in an illegal space returns to the last legal position it occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. A trample attack deals bludgeoning damage (the creature’s slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier). The creature’s descriptive text gives the exact amount.
> 
> Trampled opponents can attempt attacks of opportunity, but these take a –4 penalty. If they do not make attacks of opportunity, trampled opponents can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage.
> 
> The save DC against a creature’s trample attack is 10 + 1/2 creature’s HD + creature’s Str modifier (the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). A trampling creature can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2004)

How do you think my writeup stacks up against that one?  Any inconsistencies that we should work on?

more monster goodness soon - today has been crazy busy.


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## BOZ (Dec 23, 2004)

bump - more comments on the trample attack?


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## Knight Otu (Dec 23, 2004)

Some inconsistencies - Action type; movement; full attack action?

 For the halluzigena, I'd say there is no need that it needs to move fully over a creature, and the attack of opportunity does not necessarily need a penalty.

 DC would be 19, I think.


----------



## Shade (Dec 27, 2004)

Some good questions.   I'd say full-round action, no need to move over creature (just move into its space?), and no need for a penalty.


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## BOZ (Dec 28, 2004)

OK, I could make it a full-round action, but I think - given the original description - that it should still be able to take its normal full attacks against other creatures (not the one being trampled) within melee range.  Or that maybe it can only make its full attack if the opponent is helpless?

If we are moving into a creature's space, does the size of the victim still matter?

Here's a bit of revision:

"Piercing Trample" (Ex): As a full-round action, a hallucigenia can move into a (Large or smaller) creature's space within its threat range.  It may also make a full attack action in the same round, but may only target creatures other than the one it is trampling.  A hallucigenia's fourteen legs are very sharp, and deal 14d8 points of piercing damage to any creature it walks on.  The opponent can make an attack of opportunity against the hallucigenia, but if it does so it is not entitled to a saving throw.  If the opponent does not attempt an attack of opportunity it can make a DC X Reflex save to take half damage.  The save DC is Strength-based.  A trampling hallucigenia can only deal trampling damage once per round to a single target, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.


----------



## Shade (Dec 28, 2004)

I like the "only make full attack if opponent is helpless" option.

The size of the critter would still matter, since it still needs to "crawl over" the creature, which would be hard to do with bigger creatures.


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## BOZ (Dec 29, 2004)

posting in homebrews for a look-see.


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2004)

This assumes we give it Multiattack...

Attack: "Tail" +9 melee (1d10+5)
Full Attack: "Tail" +9 melee (1d10+5) and 6 tentacles +7 melee (1) and 7 pincer-tentacles +7 melee (1d4+2)

Should it have longer reach with tentacles and pincer-tentacles?

Skills:  Hide -7 (because of size), Jump -1 (because of slow land speed).

Organization:  We need some sort of grouping for the 1-4.  Maybe "cluster"?


----------



## BOZ (Jan 2, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> This assumes we give it Multiattack...




with all the attacks it has, I think that makes an excellent bonus feat.   



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should it have longer reach with tentacles and pincer-tentacles?




hmm, I sure didn't provide a picture did I!  Look below (thanks Tony Diterlizzi!).   Ignore that arm-looking thing in the upper-left corner; that is part of another creature.  And in the lower right corner, is a little humanoid shooting at it (and a squished friend of his below?)

the bulbous thing is assumed to be the head.  The tail part (not really visible) on the other end "has an opening, and may well be a mouth and throat" which is why I put "tail" in parenthesis - note that the accepted "head" part doesn't appear to have a mouth.    The pincer-tentacles are on the back, so no reach there, and it's odd to imagine how it attacks with them anyway.  I'm really not sure where the cluster of 6 small tentacles is supposed to be; perhaps they're on the tail part?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Organization: We need some sort of grouping for the 1-4. Maybe "cluster"?




perfect!  Well, good enough at least.


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2005)

Cool.  Thanks for the pic.   I don't think the pic indicates any exceptional reach.


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## BOZ (Jan 3, 2005)

i'll post this guy when i have a moment to write up a little bit of flavor text (won't be much).


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## BOZ (Jan 4, 2005)

Flavor text written – see homebrews now.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2005)

Flavor text is very tasty.  

Looking at creatures with "similar" anatomies, I'd recommend 2,500 pounds.  Man, I wish they'd listed the weights of animals and vermin from the MM...it would make comparisons so much easier.  (Huge monstrous centipedes in this case).


----------



## BOZ (Jan 4, 2005)

yeah, no kidding... that would help.  

CR 5-7?


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2005)

I'd go with 6.  It can do alot of damage with its piercing trample.


----------



## Knight Otu (Jan 4, 2005)

Yep, 6 sounds good.


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## BOZ (Jan 4, 2005)

OK, updating in homebrews again... how does it look now?


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2005)

Should it have a swim speed, since it has the Aquatic subtype?  I know that it mostly crawls along the bottom, but even the monstrous crab has a swim speed.


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## BOZ (Jan 5, 2005)

Yeah, I know… it’s a technicality.  If we have to give it a swim speed, might as well make it slower than the land speed, like 10 ft.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2005)

10 ft. works for me.  At least this way the critter can get back to the ocean floor if waves keep washing him away.  

And of course, this necessitates the +8 Swim check and "always take 10" bit.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 5, 2005)

True, true… updating then.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2005)

Add Jump -1 to Skills line and I think it's finished.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Jan 5, 2005)

Thank you muchly.


RC


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## BOZ (Jan 7, 2005)

no problem, and don't forget, there are two more coming soon...


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## BOZ (Feb 21, 2005)

About time to get back to work on hallucigenia too, since I did have this one queued up and ready to go…

Hallucigenia, cave
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 2
HIT DICE: 4
 THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d12 +2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Blood drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: S (3’ long)
MORALE: Average (9)
XP VALUE: 420

This subspecies of Hallucigenia has evolved to live in caverns on dry land, using its tentacles to climb slowly among the stalactites. It is a pure carnivore, subsisting solely on the blood of its prey.
The creature wraps its tail-tentacles around a stalactite hanging over a likely passage or intersection. When prey appears, the cave Hallucigenia drops down, swinging at the victim while its “tail” stretches to several times its length. AD&D game PCs have a +2 penalty on surprise rolls against this attack. The fourteen spines (or “legs”) slam into the prey, doing up to 14 points of damage. After the initial strike, the Hallucigenia’s powerful tail draws up both predator and prey among the stalactites, where the victim can be drained at leisure. Each combat sequence that the victim is on the spines after the initial strike, he will take 14 points of damage due to blood drain until he is freed (he cannot free himself) or dies.
Hallucigenia subsists only on the victim’s blood, and when it is drained, it drops the body to the cavern floor and leaves it for more conventional predators and scavengers to devour. Thus, the remains of previous victims might provide a warning for alert characters strolling through the area (Wisdom or Intuition checks as appropriate), though not enough to tell them from which direction the imminent attack will come.
some preliminary stats for the cave hallucigenia:

*Hallucigenia, Cave*
Small Vermin
Hit Dice: 4d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 5 ft (1 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 14 spines +X melee (1)  ??  (cluster of 14 spines, could instead be one attack roll)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Blood drain
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 
Feats: 

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or 1-12
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Small); 9-12 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: ---


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2005)

Holy loose ends, Batman!    

For starters, I'm thinking that the "tail" should have reach.

Suggested ability scores:  Str 12-14, Dex 17-19, Con 10-14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2


----------



## BOZ (Feb 21, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> For starters, I'm thinking that the "tail" should have reach.




I don’t believe it attacks with the tail, though.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Suggested ability scores: Str 12-14, Dex 17-19, Con 10-14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2




Str 12, Dex 17, Con 13


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I don’t believe it attacks with the tail, though.




Oh, good point.  These fellas are really hard to visualize.   So, I suppose the tail gives it reach with its "spiny body slam", then?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Str 12, Dex 17, Con 13




Cool.


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## BOZ (Feb 22, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Oh, good point. These fellas are really hard to visualize. So, I suppose the tail gives it reach with its "spiny body slam", then?




I know they’re hard to visualize… let me work on getting you a picture of them like I did for the other one.  We’ll pick this back up after that.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 22, 2005)

Personally, I'd say that all 14 spines should attack in one blow, since they're not really on stalks or flexible or anything; it's just a slam attack with pointy bits. The slam should do a lot of damage, though, and I'm thinking the Str should go to 14 just so the damage could be 2d6+2 (to duplicate the 14 damage of the original). Also, the blood drain should be prefaced with an attach ability, ala a stirge or dire weasel (so it can hold on to drain). The drain should deal Con damage (probably 1d4), instead of pure hit point loss.

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Feb 22, 2005)

sorry Shade, there are no pictures for the "sub-hallucigenia".  



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd say that all 14 spines should attack in one blow, since they're not really on stalks or flexible or anything; it's just a slam attack with pointy bits. The slam should do a lot of damage, though, and I'm thinking the Str should go to 14 just so the damage could be 2d6+2 (to duplicate the 14 damage of the original). Also, the blood drain should be prefaced with an attach ability, ala a stirge or dire weasel (so it can hold on to drain). The drain should deal Con damage (probably 1d4), instead of pure hit point loss.




That's a much better idea than what I had in mind.    makes a whole lot more sense, too.  And it was always one attack, so might as well keep it that way.  How's aboot:

Attack: Spine slam +5 melee (2d6+2)

Attach (Ex): If a cave hallucigenia hits with a spine slam attack, it uses its spines to latch onto the opponent's body. An attached hallucigenia is effectively grappling its prey. The hallucigenia loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 11, but holds on with great tenacity. Hallucigenias have a +X racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above). 
An attached hallucigenia can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached hallucigenia through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the hallucigenia.

Blood Drain (Ex): A cave hallucigenia can drain blood from a living victim by making a successful grapple check.  It if pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round the pin is maintained.  (On each successful attack, the hallucigenia gains 5 temporary hit points.)

Keep the gain temporary hit points part?

The normal grapple check is +0, so the bonus should make it comparable to other creatures but not be ridiculously high.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 22, 2005)

I say a +4 bonus to the grapple check - comparable to the Improved Grapple feat. Also, I might be wrong, but the creatures that gain temporary hit points from blood drain are all supernatural creatures, like undead. Both dire weasels and stirges (the model for attach) just feed on blood, and don't gain any temporary hit points, and I don't think the cave hallucigenia should either.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Feb 22, 2005)

I find your lack of picture disturbing.        (No problemo.)

This all looks good so far.   As for the grapple bonus, I found a couple of critters, and it appears that the racial bonus to grapple checks is enough to offset the size penalty, plus an additional +4.   Granted, two creatures isn't a great sample, but it could suggest we go with +8.

For its feats, I'd recommend Improved Init and Stealthy.

I think this fella should have a climb speed as well.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 22, 2005)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I might be wrong, but the creatures that gain temporary hit points from blood drain are all supernatural creatures, like undead. Both dire weasels and stirges (the model for attach) just feed on blood, and don't gain any temporary hit points, and I don't think the cave hallucigenia should either.




good enough for me.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> This all looks good so far. As for the grapple bonus, I found a couple of critters, and it appears that the racial bonus to grapple checks is enough to offset the size penalty, plus an additional +4. Granted, two creatures isn't a great sample, but it could suggest we go with +8.




you mean the stirge and weasel?  Well, they were working with a bigger negative to offset due to a lower Str score and smaller size.  Unless the CR is going to be nice and big, I think demiurge’s +4 might be enough.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For its feats, I'd recommend Improved Init and Stealthy.




it is unintelligent, you know.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I think this fella should have a climb speed as well.




they didn’t have one before, but that does make sense.


----------



## Shade (Feb 22, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> you mean the stirge and weasel?  Well, they were working with a bigger negative to offset due to a lower Str score and smaller size.  Unless the CR is going to be nice and big, I think demiurge’s +4 might be enough.




Works for me.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it is unintelligent, you know.




Awww...brain fart.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 22, 2005)

Since we can't give it feats, maybe a racial bonus to Hide checks would be appropriate? Also, you'd probably want to change the environment line to Underground from Any Aquatic.

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Feb 22, 2005)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Since we can't give it feats, maybe a racial bonus to Hide checks would be appropriate?




sounds good to me.  

“When prey appears, the cave Hallucigenia drops down, swinging at the victim while its “tail” stretches to several times its length. AD&D game PCs have a +2 penalty on surprise rolls against this attack. The fourteen spines (or “legs”) slam into the prey, doing up to 14 points of damage. After the initial strike, the Hallucigenia’s powerful tail draws up both predator and prey among the stalactites, where the victim can be drained at leisure.”

You know, I don’t think it really needs reach, since it seems to drop straight down.  It should be in the same square (though not necessarily so vertically). One thing though, maybe we can do something where attached prey gets pulled up to the cavern ceiling.  Maybe a “surprise attack” thing too when it drops down suddenly out of hiding.


----------



## Shade (Feb 22, 2005)

Well, "surprise attack" is usually covered by Hide, Move Silently, and Improved Initiative.    

I'd suggest a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks.

I think that we should modify this ability from the umbral banyan:

Yank Upward (Ex): On the round after an umbral banyan grapples a foe, it can automatically yank the held creature 20 feet up into the air if it is still successfully grappling. Opponents who escape the grapple take 2d6 points of damage from the fall to the ground.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 23, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yank Upward (Ex): On the round after an umbral banyan grapples a foe, it can automatically yank the held creature 20 feet up into the air if it is still successfully grappling. Opponents who escape the grapple take 2d6 points of damage from the fall to the ground.




funky name for that one though.    but it does what it says…

should we keep that variable damage or just say “falling damage”?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 23, 2005)

I'd say falling damage. That's probably only 1d6 for the cave hallucigenia, but mitigating circumstances could always lead to more.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2005)

Yeah, that is a funky name.  But its from a funky monster.    

Agreed on the falling damage.  Do we need to put a size limitation on what it can "yank upward"?


----------



## BOZ (Feb 23, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Do we need to put a size limitation on what it can "yank upward"?




absolutely.  

math time!

We gave it a Str of 14, for which the maximum lift over your head is 175 (and we assume that the critter isn’t carrying anything else of course).  But, since it is Small, that is ¾, so the number is really 131.  that’s enough to lift most Medium creatures, but not necessarily all.  Still, I would allow for all Medium creatures all the same.

Yank Upward (Ex): On the round after a cave hallucigenia attaches to a Medium or smaller foe, it can automatically yank the held creature 20 feet up into the air if it is still successfully grappling. The hallucigenia must currently be climbing along the ceiling or wall to use this ability.  Opponents who escape the grapple take falling damage as they fall to the ground.


----------



## Shade (Feb 23, 2005)

Looks good!


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2005)

_This bizarre creature almost defies description.  Its spindly form has a tentacled tail-like organ at one end, and a set of over a dozen sharp, flexible, spiny legs that prop it upright._

The hallucigenia, perhaps aptly named because some explorers swear that it must be a hallucination, is a creature with an anatomy so strange that nothing about it can be assumed.  This subspecies of hallucigenia is a pure carnivore, subsisting on blood alone.  It has evolved somewhat to live in caverns on dry land.

A hallucigenia is 3 feet long and weighs about X pounds.

COMBAT
A cave hallucigenia hunts by wrapping its tail-tentacles around a stalactite, hanging over a passage or intersection and waiting for prey.  When it spots a suitable target its tail stretches to several times its length, allowing the hallucigenia to strike from above.  It draws the prey back upwards by retracting its tail, where it may drain the victim’s blood at leisure.  Drained victims are dropping on the floor, possibly providing a warning of danger to other travelers.


----------



## Shade (Feb 24, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> A cave hallucigenia hunts by wrapping its tail-tentacles around a stalactite, hanging over a passage or intersection and waiting for prey.  When it spots a suitable target its tail stretches to several times its length, allowing the hallucigenia to strike from above.  It draws the prey back upwards by retracting its tail, where it may drain the victim’s blood at leisure.  Drained victims are *dropping * on the floor, possibly providing a warning of danger to other travelers.




Change the bolded word to "dropped", and I think it's good to go.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 24, 2005)

Oh… poop.  

Posting in homebrews with the other hallucigenia…


----------



## Shade (Feb 24, 2005)

Climb speed 5 ft.?

CR 2 or 3?

150 lbs.?


----------



## BOZ (Feb 24, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> CR 2 or 3?




I’d say 2 then.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> 150 lbs.?




no way, they’re Small.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 24, 2005)

so… maybe 50 lbs then?

Updating – is this one finito?


----------



## Shade (Feb 24, 2005)

50 lbs. is fine (same as dire rat).  I just figured all those "legs" and the long tail would add to the weight.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 24, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> 50 lbs. is fine (same as dire rat). I just figured all those "legs" and the long tail would add to the weight.




not a hundred pounds though.  

if that one’s done, we might as well move on to #3 and finish up these weirdos…


----------



## Shade (Feb 24, 2005)

Touche'.    

Bring 'em on.


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2005)

you asked for it.  

Hallucigenia, acidic
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 4
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 13
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 (x13)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Acid jet
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Resistance to acid
SIZE: L (8’ long)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Here’s another land-dwelling subspecies of Hallucigenia, one that actively hunts its prey. When it corners its prey, or is attacked by an enemy before it can turn around, it rears up on its four rear pairs of legs and lunges forward to counterattack. It can strike with its front three pairs of spinelike legs and all seven pincer-tipped tentacles at once. Each attack does 1d4 points of damage.
When its prey has been slain, Hallucigenia squirts digestive acid on it from the hollow tube that is its tail, softening the body enough for the tentacle pincers—its true mouths—to tear it apart and devour it. If pressed, the creature also uses this as an offensive weapon, one that does 2d8 points of damage. Effective range is ten meters (or 30’ in AD&D terms), and the acid is a thin jet several inches wide, only wide enough to hit a single foe. AD&D characters can avoid this attack by making a successful save vs. breath weapons. This jet may be used three times a day. Due to its particular metabolism, Hallucigenia is immune to all acid-based attacks. 

some preliminary stats for the acidic hallucigenia:

*Hallucigenia, Acidic*
Large Vermin
Hit Dice: 5d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 6 spines +X melee (1d4+X) and 7 tentacles +X melee (1d4+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Acid jet
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, immunity to acid
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: ---


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 25, 2005)

Sizing up the cave hallucigenia, I get the following physical stats: Str 26, Dex 13, Con 19. Sizing down the regular variety, we get Str 12, Dex 15, Con 12. I don't think it makes sense for the acidic hallucigenia to be radically stronger than its larger aquatic kin, but it shouldn't be so far off (in order to move about on land, for example, a vermin'd need to be stronger than its aquatic kin). How about Str 16-18, Dex 13-15, Con 14-16? And Wis 10, Cha 2 still works for me.

We have two options with the acidic jet. We can either make it a breath weapon (30ft line, Reflex half) or a ranged touch attack (to hit roll, but no save). I'm inclined, by the example of the digester and ankheg, to make it a breath weapon.

Demiurge out.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 25, 2005)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Sizing up the cave hallucigenia, I get the following physical stats: Str 26, Dex 13, Con 19. Sizing down the regular variety, we get Str 12, Dex 15, Con 12. I don't think it makes sense for the acidic hallucigenia to be radically stronger than its larger aquatic kin, but it shouldn't be so far off (in order to move about on land, for example, a vermin'd need to be stronger than its aquatic kin). How about Str 16-18, Dex 13-15, Con 14-16? And Wis 10, Cha 2 still works for me.




your logic works for me.    Str 17, Dex 25, Con 15?



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> We have two options with the acidic jet. We can either make it a breath weapon (30ft line, Reflex half) or a ranged touch attack (to hit roll, but no save). I'm inclined, by the example of the digester and ankheg, to make it a breath weapon.




I agree.   taking a cue from the ankheg:

Acidic Jet (Ex): 30-ft. line, once every X rounds; damage 2d8 acid, Reflex DC X half. An acidic hallucigenia uses this acid to digest its prey, but can use it as an offensive weapon if pressed. A hallucigenia may use this acid jet up to three times per day.


----------



## Shade (Feb 25, 2005)

This one is pretty straightforward...for a freak.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 25, 2005)

true, i could probably finish it up today.


----------



## Shade (Feb 25, 2005)

Yeah, let's speed this along:

Suggested Skill Ranks:  -
Suggested Feats:  -


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 25, 2005)

You do mean Dex 15, right?

Demiurge out.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 26, 2005)

That helps Shade, thanks.  



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> You do mean Dex 15, right?




well actually, I meant to put 14 for Dex, not 25.    (misaligned on the keypad!)


----------



## Shade (Feb 28, 2005)

Someone's enjoying the new Bump feature a bit too much.    

OK, so assuming the ability scores of Str 17, Dex 14, Con 15, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2...

Large Vermin
Hit Dice: 5d8+10 (46 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+10
Attack: X
Full Attack: 6 spines +5 melee (1d4+3) and 7 tentacles +0 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Acid jet
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, immunity to acid
Saves: Fort +6 Ref +3 Will +1
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 15, Int ---, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: Jump -9
Feats: -


----------



## BOZ (Feb 28, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Someone's enjoying the new Bump feature a bit too much.




never, not possible.  

I’ll try to work up some flavor text today as that’s about all that’s left…


----------



## BOZ (Mar 1, 2005)

_This bizarre creature almost defies description.  Its spindly form consists of four pairs of spiny rear legs and three pairs of front legs, and a set of seven pincer-tipped tentacles.  Its tail is a hollow tube that drips a caustic fluid._

The hallucigenia, perhaps aptly named because some explorers swear that it must be a hallucination, is a creature with an anatomy so strange that nothing about it can be assumed.  This subspecies of hallucigenia has adapted to live on land, actively hunting its prey.

An acidic hallucigenia is 8 feet long and weighs about X pounds.

COMBAT
When an acidic hallucigenia corners its prey, or is attacked, it rears up on its rear legs and lunges forward. It usually squirts digestive acid on slain prey, so that its tentacle pincers (the true mouths) can tear the prey to pieces, but the hallucigenia can use this acid on live prey if pressed.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Mar 1, 2005)

Looks good, although I'd change the description to read "...Its spindly form _rests on_ four pairs of...". Because, if it was just legs, spines and a tail, it would be hallucinagenic indeed, not to mention inaccurate.

Demiurge out.


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2005)

Looks good.  Agreed with the "rests on" suggestion.   500 lbs.?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 1, 2005)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Looks good, although I'd change the description to read "...Its spindly form rests on four pairs of...". Because, if it was just legs, spines and a tail, it would be hallucinagenic indeed, not to mention inaccurate.




good call.  

posting in homebrews – hopefully we are just about done with these oddballs.


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2005)

Attack:  Spine +5 melee (1d4+3)
Skills:  Hide -2, Jump -9
Environment:  Any land and underground?
CR:  4?  (Its not super-tough, but it has alot of attacks for its HD)
Advancement:  6-10 HD (Large); 11-15 HD (Huge)?

Acid:  Once every 1d4 rounds.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 1, 2005)

i usually prefer to leave off the negative mods unless there is a good reason to include them.  looks better that way.  

updating once more... is there anything left for these fellows?


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i usually prefer to leave off the negative mods unless there is a good reason to include them.  looks better that way.




I'm just the opposite.  I like to do as much work for the DM as possible.  Heck, only recently have I realized that the dwarf in my campaign should be getting a -6 penalty to Jump checks due to his 20 ft. speed.   If only the racial traits had bothered to mention this...    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> updating once more... is there anything left for these fellows?




Only one thing.  Add "The save DC is Constitution-based" to the acid jet ability.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 2, 2005)

Cool – I hope these freaks are ready to go then.


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2005)

I think they are.  Was that the last of the hallucogenia?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 2, 2005)

a-yup.  just the three.


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2005)

Whittling down the list on this one from recentish sources...

First Edition Monster Manual (1977):
Dinosaurs (Anatosaurus (Tractodon), Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus), Archelon Ischyros (Stormwrack), Brachiosaurus, Camarasaurus, Ceratosaurus (Serpent Kingdoms), Cetiosaurus, Dinichtys, Diplodocus (Dragon 318), Gorgosaurus, Iguanadon, Lambeosaurus, Megalosaurus, Monoclonius, Mosasaurus (Stormwrack), Paleoscinus, Pentaceratops, Plateosaurus, Plesiosaurus (Stormwrack), Pteranodon (Serpent Kingdoms), Stegosaurus (Serpent Kingdoms, Dragon 318), Styracosaurus, Teratosaurus)
Mammoth (Frostburn)
Mastodon (MMIII)
Titanothere

First Edition Monster Manual II (1982):
Dinosaurs (Ankisaurus, Camptosaurus, Compsognathus (Dragon 318), Dacentrurus, Diplophosaurs, Dimetrodon (Dragon 318), Euparkeria, Kentrosaurus, Mamenchisaurus, Masspondylus, Nothosaurus, Ornitholestes, Podokesaurus, Giant Pterosaur, Struthiomimus, Tanystropheus, Tennodontosaurus)

DRAGON mag:
55 - Allosaurus (MMII), therezinosaurus, parasaurolophus(Dragon 318), ankylosarusus (MMII)
112 - Aetosaur, ankylosaur (MMII), carnosaur, ceratopsian, marine chelonian
137 - Alticamelus, ambelodon, arsinotherium, astrapotherium, short-faced bear, giant bison, cattle (auroch), deinotherium, gigantopithecus, glyptodon (Frostburn), macrauchenia, moropus, sivatherium, ground sloth, uintatherium 
167 - Agriotherium, amphycion, anancus, andrewsarchus, giant camel, dwarf elephant, eucladoceros, giant hippopotmaus, megalania, metridiochoerus, pelorovis, sarkastodon 
176 - Giant opabinia, electric agnath, eurypterid, armored predatory fish, eogyrinus, eryops, cyclotosaurus, cacops, giant platyhystrix, estemennosuchus, early therapsids, giant therapsid, erythrosuchus 
204 - Opabinia, yohoia, marrella, odontogriphus, leanchoilia, amiskwia, sanctacaris, wiwaxia, ottoia, anomalocaris


----------



## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

got any preferences?


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeah, in the Monsters from Dungeon thread.    

As far as this thread, probably any of the weird ones from Dragon #176 or #204.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

if they are anything like the hallucigenia, then weird they are indeed!


----------



## Raven Crowking (Oct 11, 2005)

Thanks for the hallucogenia.


RC


----------



## RavinRay (Nov 4, 2005)

BOZ, since I'm a paleontologist in real life, I'm gonna download this entire thread and go through the critters one-by-one. It'll make my coffee breaks in the office fun.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2005)

Hm... it's been a while, BOZ. How about starting the dino conversions up again?

Demiurge out.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

well, which would you like to do?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2005)

There's already a hadrosaur (Anatotitan) and a sauropod (Apatosaurus) in the Creature Catalog... how about some more therapods? Ceratosaurus, Gorgosaurus, something like that? Either that or we can figure out where we left off last time and do them in alphabetical order, except I'm pretty sure we skipped some of the less photogenic ones (Anchisaurus, for example) the first run-through.

Did we ever finish Archelon?

Demiurge out.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

i have no idea.    probably not?  did it appear in a magazine perhaps?

see post #260...


----------



## Shade (Nov 4, 2005)

Archelon is in Stormwrack.


----------



## Elthbert (Dec 3, 2005)

Well I hope this thread hasn't died I was really excited about getting some  of those conversions.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 4, 2005)

admittedly, it's lower on my priority list than it probably should be.  any requests?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 5, 2005)

Possible source of inspiration (for us in the UK anyway)

BBC1
Walking With Monsters
Thu 8 Dec, 8:30 pm - 9:00 pm  30mins

The first in a three-part series telling the extraordinary story of evolution as it has never been seen before. This week we witness the explosive creation of our earth 4.4 billion years ago. As we witness first life evolving in the oceans, we meet our bizarre earliest ancestors who battle against terrifying three-metre-long sea scorpions and giant carnivorous fish as big as a truck. Their ability to survive will determine the shape of life on our planet and whether we humans will exist at all. But as our huge early amphibian ancestors finally struggle onto land, the monsters they face are more deadly than ever. [AD,S]

As well as a few old series' 
Sea Monsters 
Prehistoric Mammals 
Dino's 
and
Cavemen 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Possible source of inspiration (for us in the UK anyway)
> 
> BBC1
> Walking With Monsters




actually, they have shown that programme in the states before.    don't know if it's currently running, but i have seen it.


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

We've got requests in the queue for the following:

Andrewsarchus
Bear dog
Dinofelis
Gorgosaurus
Anchisaurus
Pentaceratops
Ornitholestes
"Any of the weird ones from Dragon #176 or #204"

I like Gorgosaurus just for its name.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

what source was the gorgosaurus coming from?


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

You would ask that!        The search begins...


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

According to the first post in this thread...

First Edition Monster Manual (1977)


----------



## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

no kidding!    probably MC3 as well then.  maybe a Dragon mag, but probably not if it was in the MM.


----------



## Kwitchit (Dec 7, 2005)

Stats please...
And this will probably just end up being a smaller version of T. Rex. There's no suggestion of any unusual abilities for it, unlike the allosaurus, unless some were suggested in the 1e stats.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 7, 2005)

i'll get this one started sometime this week.  stay tuned!


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 7, 2005)

Kwitchit said:
			
		

> Stats please...
> And this will probably just end up being a smaller version of T. Rex. There's no suggestion of any unusual abilities for it, unlike the allosaurus, unless some were suggested in the 1e stats.




Really, a Gorgosaur would just be a T.Rex with slightly fewer HD, I think.  Mechanically, there'd be little difference.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 7, 2005)

probably true.  still, 'tis an important service we must provide!


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> probably true.  still, 'tis an important service we must provide!




What a trooper!


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 7, 2005)

Did you watch the "Before the Dinosaurs" on Discovery a few weeks back?  Has anyone converted the gorgonopsian mammal-like reptiles?  1 ton of saber-toothed goodness just waitin' for a PC to come wandering by.


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Did you watch the "Before the Dinosaurs" on Discovery a few weeks back?  Has anyone converted the gorgonopsian mammal-like reptiles?  1 ton of saber-toothed goodness just waitin' for a PC to come wandering by.




Haven't seen it, but that sounds quite cool.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 7, 2005)

http://palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk/russia/images/gorgonopsian.jpg

Boo! Scary, kids!


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2005)

Cute 'lil buggers.


----------



## Kwitchit (Dec 8, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Possible source of inspiration (for us in the UK anyway)
> 
> BBC1
> Walking With Monsters
> ...



Just saw it. Requesting stats for:
The big sea scorpions
Orthocones (10-metre-long cone-shaped shell with a mouth and tentacles).


----------



## BOZ (Dec 17, 2005)

1E Monster Manual

Gorgosaurus
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 13
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3/7-28
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (30' + long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
	Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

These horrid creatures are probably ancestors of tyrannosaurus rex. The gorgosaurus is a fleet carnivorous dinosaur of very aggressive instincts.


Monstrous Compendium 3

Gorgosaurus
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE:	Nil
ALIGNMENT:	Nil

NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 13
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3/7-28
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (30' long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 	5,000

This horrid creature is probably another ancestor of tyrannosaurus rex. The gorgosaurus is a fleet, carnivorous dinosaur of very aggressive instincts.


Monstrous Compendium Annual #2

Gorgosaurus
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE:	Nil
ALIGNMENT:	Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 13
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d3/1d3/7d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (30' long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 	5,000

This horrid creature, also known as the albertosaurus, is probably an ancestor of tyrannosaurus rex. It is physically similar but smaller, with a longer-snouted head and more backward-pointing teeth. The gorgosaurus is a fleet, carnivorous dinosaur of very aggressive instincts. It might weigh as much as two tons.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 17, 2005)

BOZ, do you still have that text file I sent you a year or two back with all of my conversions of the MMI and MMII dinos? The gorgosaurus was among them, and that might be a good backbone for the 3.5 gorgosaur stats, to be edited further.

Demiurge out.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 17, 2005)

i do!  it probably won't require much in the way of editing, since it is such a simple creature.
here it is:

Gorgosaurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 13d8+52 (110 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+24
Attack: Bite +14 melee (3d6+10)
Full Attack: Bite +14 melee (3d6+10)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +6
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Hide -6, Listen +14, Spot +14
Feats: Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Run, Toughness, Track
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 14-26 HD (Huge), 27-39 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This massive, stocky biped has a huge head with sharp-toothed jaws, powerful legs and almost comically small arms.

A gorgosaurus is a smaller, leaner relative of the famous tyrannosaurus.

Gorgosaurs are about 30 feet in length and weigh 2-3 tons. Unlike the tyrannosaurus, which occasionally hunts in pairs, the gorgosaurus is a solitary beast. They are unusually specialized, as most of their nourishment comes from stealing the kills of other animals, such as dinonychus packs or even human hunters. They are still capable of hunting, however, and usually target young and infirm lambeosaurs and anatotitans when they do.

Combat
Gorgosaurs are reckless combatants, grabbing and swallowing smaller creatures until all are dead or the rest flee. Against equal sized creatures, they attempt to drag them to the ground and consume them alive.

Improved Grab (Ex): In order to use this ability, a gorgosaurus must hit with a bite attack. If it hits, it can make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it deals automatic bite damage each round and can swallow its opponent whole.

Swallow Whole (Ex): By making a successful grapple check, a gorgosaurus may swallow a held foe at least one size smaller than itself whole. Once swallowed, a victim takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage plus 8 acid damage every round until it escapes or dies. A successful grapple check allows the creature to climb out of the stomach and into the gorgosaurus? mouth, where another grapple check is required to get free. Alternatively, the swallowed creature can escape by cutting its way out with either claws or a light slashing or piecing weapon. Dealing at least 30 points of damage (AC 12) in this fashion allows the creature to escape. Once a single swallowed creature exits, muscular action closes the whole; another swallowed creature must cut its way out as well. A gorgosaurus? stomach can hold 2 Medium-sized, 8 Small, 32 Tiny or 128 Diminutive or smaller creatures. 

Skills: A gorgosaurus receives a +2 racial bonus on all Listen and Spot checks.


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

I'd raise the Dex by at least 1 to give a +1 higher modifier than T-Rex.

What was the 1E speed of a T-Rex?  It says that these fellas are fleet, but it isn't any faster than T-Rex in the straight conversion of speed.

Same goes for the bite damage.  Was it greater than T-Rex in 1E?  If so, I think we should increase the damage.  I'm not sure if the greater curvature of the teeth makes a difference.

Searched the web and found this:  A gorgosaurus is 27 to 30 feet long and weighs 3,000 to 3,500 pounds.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

the Dex adjustment might just work.

comparing ye olde Monster Manual:
Gorgosaurus:
MOVE: 15"
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3/7-28

Tyrannasaurus:
MOVE: 15"
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/5-40

so, speed would be the same.  the bite damage is actually less, so i'm thinking of killing Improved Natural Attack.


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Cool.  Yeah, remove Imp Nat Attack.   How about Improved Critical instead?  That would account for the scimitar-like teeth.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

i like it!  posting in homebrews!


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Although it is by no means a requirement, I'd add Jump +11 to the skills line for its speed modifier.

CR 7 seems fine.  It has 70 less hp than a T-rex and deals less damage.

Otherwise, I think it's done.  I'm starting to like dino conversions.  They are the antithesis to psionic critters and "body swappers".


----------



## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

how about the damage to escape from the gizzard?  that is actually more than what a t-rex requires...


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Ooops...I thought it was a direct copy of the T-rex ability.   I'd make 'em the same.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 20, 2005)

I thought it was a direct copy too... hm. Maybe I took it from the dinicthys or something.

Looks good so far. And yeah, dinos are nice and easy.

Demiurge out.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

okie dokie, if it's looking good then it is done.


----------



## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

Wow...speed conversions are refreshing.  How 'bout another?   Got any more tyrannosaurids?  Is Albertosaurus on the list?  (It's almost identical to Gorgo).


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 20, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Wow...speed conversions are refreshing.  How 'bout another?   Got any more tyrannosaurids?  Is Albertosaurus on the list?  (It's almost identical to Gorgo).




Tarbosaurus is a near twin of T. Rex..but what about Nanotyrannus?  Small enough to be used as a mount for a primitive culture....maybe?


----------



## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

That would be a useful one.  I just checked the "to be converted" list at the beginning, and it looks like alberto-, tarbo-, and nano- aren't on it...so we'll have to approach 'em as homebrews rather than conversions.   Not that there's anything wrong with that.


----------



## Filby (Dec 21, 2005)

Well, Albertosaurus was practically identical to Gorgosaurus, so I'd say the stats are interchangeable. If you wanted to make them different, maybe just give it a different feat selection (say, Improved Natural Attack instead of Improved Critical, like the Tyrannosaurus).

As for Tarbosaurus, scientists now consider it to be a species of Tyrannosaurus. _Tyrannosaurus bataar_ as opposed to North America's _Tyrannosaurus rex_.


----------



## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

Cool.  Thanks for the info, Filby.


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

BOZ gave me the go-ahead to lead some conversion threads while he focuses on the Dukes of Hell. Here's another one that was requested...

Andrewsarchus
(giant long-jawed hyena)
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate plains
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 9+9
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 3-18
SIZE: L (13.long)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE: 1,400

Andrewsarchus was the largest known carnivorous land mammal. Unrelated to any modern or past carnivore, it was more closely related to the animals it fed upon than anything else. Andrewsarchus looked vaguely like a hyena but had a huge skull nearly 3. long. Its tail appeared feline.

Combat: Andrewsarchus can attack with its strong jaws, but prefers to feed on carrion.

Habitat/Society: Large carnivores are usually solitary, and Andrewsarchus is no exception, pairing only once a year to mate. It is mainly a scavenger but can attack large game, including Coryphodon and Uintatherium (see .Into the Age of Mammals. for details), as well as hornless rhinos and tapirs. This beast is at the top of the food chain, having no enemies.

Source:  Dragon #167


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

More info and pics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrewsarchus


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Getting started...

Andrewsarchus
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 9d8+x (x hp)
Initiative: +x
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: x (–1 size, +x Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+x
Attack: Bite +x melee (x+x)
Full Attack: Bite +x melee (x+x)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +x, Ref +x, Will +x
Abilities: Str x, Dex x, Con x, Int 2, Wis x, Cha x
Skills: 12
Feats: 4
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 10–18 HD (Large); 19-27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2007)

Comparing similar-sized animals for ability scores:

Dire Wolf: Str 25, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Dire Wolverine: Str 22, Dex 17, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Brown Bear: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Polar Bear: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Rhinoceros: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

So...

Str 25-27, Dex 13-17, Con 17-21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6-10


----------



## Khisanth the Ancient (Jun 24, 2007)

I'd make Dex 13 at most, maybe even 11.   Andrewsarchus was pretty bulky - built more like a bear than wolf.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 25, 2007)

Khisanth the Ancient said:
			
		

> I'd make Dex 13 at most, maybe even 11.   Andrewsarchus was pretty bulky - built more like a bear than wolf.



Well both the brown bear and polar bear have Dex 13 so Dex 13?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 25, 2007)

So how about Str 27, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 25, 2007)

Works for me.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 25, 2007)

I put together what we have thus far in Homebrews.  We can always adjust the ability scores if others feel these don't work best.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 26, 2007)

A few more things...

+4 natural armor?

Skills: Hide, Listen, Spot 4 ranks each?

Feats: Alertness, Improved Critical (bite), Power Attack, Stealthy

CR: 5 or 6?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 26, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> +4 natural armor?




That puts it between a black and brown bear, which is probably fine. 



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Skills: Hide, Listen, Spot 4 ranks each?




That works well when compared to bears and wolves.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Feats: Alertness, Improved Critical (bite), Power Attack, Stealthy




Bears of various types have Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness, Track, Weapon Focus (claw).

Wolves and dire wolves have Alertness, Run, Track*, Weapon Focus (bite).

Improved Natural Attack (bite) seems appropriate for their powerful jaws.

Perhaps Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Run, Track?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		


			CR: 5 or 6?
		
Click to expand...



5 is probably about right, as it is about on par with a dire lion or smilodon.*


----------



## Mortis (Jun 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Run, Track*?*



*
Looks good, although I seem to recall a conversation that INA was a waste of a feat and we could just up the damage anyway.  Hence the Imp Crit suggestion. I don't favour one over the other though.




			5 is probably about right, as it is about on par with a dire lion or smilodon.
		
Click to expand...


I really should compare conversions with other creatures, I normally just suggest what 'feels' right. 

Regards
Mortis*


----------



## Shade (Jun 26, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Looks good, although I seem to recall a conversation that INA was a waste of a feat and we could just up the damage anyway.  Hence the Imp Crit suggestion. I don't favour one over the other though.




Heh, I believe I may have started that conversation...or at least strongly supported it.    

As time has gone by, and more and more creatures have the feat to break the mold, I've decided to jump on the bandwagon.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I've decided to jump on the bandwagon.



Ooohhh!!! You follower of fashion you.

The next thing you know, you'll like the new monster format.   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

...and classed humanoids from other supplements appearing in Monster Manuals.

...and page after page after page of purplespawn peopleeaters and whatnot.


----------



## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.  How's it look now?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 28, 2007)

Looking good.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Jul 3, 2007)

I think this onw is done, next?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 3, 2007)

Soon.


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

Next....

Amphicyon (bear dog)
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate plains
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
DIET: Omnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 7+7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 2-8/2-8/1-8
SIZE: M (6½' long)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: 650

Amphicyon giganteus was the largest of an early group of carnivores. It looked like a bear with a wolfish muzzle and canine tail.

Combat: Amphicyon is much like a bear in combat, striking with two paws and a bite (but no hug).

Habitat/Society: The bear dog is solitary and lives much like a grizzly bear. It feeds heavily on roots, wild fruit, and small animals. Unlike bears, however, it regularly attacks larger game, striking from ambush. Its prey includes the titanothere and hornless rhinoceros. 
Amphicyon is at the top of the food chain, having no natural enemies.

From Dragon #167 (1991).


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

Some more information:

Amphicyon
Bear Dog


----------



## Mortis (Jul 17, 2007)

Looks like an easy one. 

Average the brown bear and polar bear stats and remove Improved Grab.

Brown Bear: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Polar Bear: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Oh! They have the same stats. 

In that case, advance a Brown Bear by 1 Hit Dice and remove Improved Grab?
So extra hit points and an additional skill point (in Listen).

To give us...

*Amphicyon (bear dog)*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+28 (59 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+17
Attack: Claw +12 melee (1d8+8)
Full Attack: 2 claws +12 melee and bite +7 melee (2d6+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +7, Swim +12
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8-12 HD (Large), 13-16 HD (Huge) 
Level Adjustment: -

These massive carnivores weigh more than 1,800 pounds and stand nearly 9 feet tall when they rear up on their hind legs. They are bad-tempered and territorial. 

Combat
An amphicyon attacks mainly by tearing at opponents with its claws. 

Skills
An amphicyon has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. *Should it retain this?*



Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

Yep, this is a pretty easy one, and not particularly interesting.   Just cleanin' out the request queue.    

Dropping Improved Grab makes sense.

Here's something interesting from Wikipedia that might help differentiate them further:
"They were about as tall as the American black bear and were most likely ambushers due to the fact that their legs were made for short, sudden bursts of speed."

Maybe a lesser version of the cheetah's sprint ability?

This site  states...

"Amphicyon was built like a lion, and probably ambushed its prey with short, powerful bursts of speed, just as lions do today. Bear-dog prints that were left some 14 million years ago show a stride length about equal to the animal's body length, minus the tail. They also show that the bear-dog was pacing -- moving the two left legs and the two right legs alternately, the way bears do today, though at a much slower stride."

And this...

"Giant bear-dogs of the genera Amphicyon and Ischyrocyon (Carnivora, Amphicyonidae, Amphicyoninae) were the largest carnivorans in North America during middle and late Miocene (17.5-8.8 Mya) with a dental and skeletal morphology that combined features found in living Ursidae, Canidae, and Felidae. This study tests previously proposed models of diet and hunting behaviour of these extinct carnivorans. Relative grinding area (RGA) of lower molars and wear pattern on upper molars suggest that bear-dogs were carnivorous. Amphicyon and Ischyrocyon possessed skeletal features of both ambush (short distal limb segments) and pursuit (caudally bent olecranon process of ulna) living predators. Therefore, bear-dogs probably pursued their prey (mediportal ungulates) for a longer distance but at a slower speed than do living ambush predators. Upon catching up to its prey a bear-dog probably seized it with powerfully muscled forelimbs and killed it by tearing into its ribcage or neck with canines set in a narrow rostrum."

So maybe pounce makes more sense?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here's something interesting from Wikipedia that might help differentiate them further:
> "They were about as tall as the American black bear and were most likely ambushers due to the fact that their legs were made for short, sudden bursts of speed."
> 
> Maybe a lesser version of the cheetah's sprint ability?
> ...




Could do - it's already got the Run feat though. How about allowing it a full attack following a  charge? Like pounce but different 

That may not make much sense, I started to reply before noticing that you mentioned pounce at the end. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

So...pounce, then?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So...pounce, then?



Yeah 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 18, 2007)

You guys might want to up the bite damage or enable it to do something else with its bite. While not as bone-crushing as a hyena's bite, an amphicyon bite was really nasty. A hyena can attempt a trip with its bite. Just this paleontologist's 2 cp worth.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 18, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> You guys might want to up the bite damage or enable it to do something else with its bite. While not as bone-crushing as a hyena's bite, an amphicyon bite was really nasty.



So Improved Natural Attack (Bite) as a bonus feat eh, Shade? 

Which would take the damage to 3d6+4

We could also make the bite the primary attack to give 3d6+8 damage which also reduces the claws damage to 1d8+4.

What do you think?



> A hyena can attempt a trip with its bite.



I don't have a problem giving it the Trip special attack.



> Just this paleontologist's 2 cp worth.



And well worth it too. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> And well worth it too.




Indeed.    

Added to Homebrews.

I left the claws as the primary attack, since the previous sources said that they used their claws to grab prey before biting.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I left the claws as the primary attack, since the previous sources said that they used their claws to grab prey before biting.



Fair enough.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2007)

Added flavor text.  Anything left on this one?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Anything left on this one?



Not that I can see.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

Next!

Eurypterid (water scorpion)
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ocean bottoms
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d4/2d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: M (6’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 65

The eurypterids (the above statistics are for the best-known one, Pterygotus) were the supreme marine predators of the Silurian period (425-405 million years ago).  They are also the first natural predators in time that would actively go after human adventurers if they encountered them, as opposed to merely ambushing them or striking out in self defense.

Water scorpions attack with their clawed forearms, each of which does 2-8 hp damage (they have no poisonous tail stinger). Like the giant opabinia, a eurypterid in shallow water might drag a wading man down and hold him under until he drowns; a strength check on 3d6 is allowed for escape each round. Remember that these creatures naturally breathe water, while a man will have to come up for air sometime (a potion of water breathing won't last forever, even assuming the victim drank it right before going under).

They can also detect prey within 60' through sensing the water vibrations or moving animals, and can thus hunt in murky water or at night with only a -2 to hit, giving them a further advantage. 

Dragon #176, 1991


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

Here's the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurypterid


----------



## freyar (Jul 19, 2007)

My immediate thoughts:

Tremorsense or blindsight or blindsense?

Improved Grab and a racial bonus on grapple checks seem like no-brainers for this one.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jul 19, 2007)

Monstrous scorpions have tremorsense.

The stats for a medium monstrous scorpion: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2

Dexterity could probably be higher.


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Monstrous scorpions have tremorsense.
> 
> The stats for a medium monstrous scorpion: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
> 
> Dexterity could probably be higher.




For further comparison...

Medium Monstrous Crab:  Str 15, Dex 11, Con 12, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
Giant Whip Scorpion (Large): Str 15, Dex 12, Con 14, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2

So,  Str 13-15, Dex 10-12, Con 12-14, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 20, 2007)

There is a version of Tremorsense that works in the water, it's just named differently. So we've got a Medium Vermin (Aquatic) which can advance to Large size. Dex isn't actually that much higher, since their maneuverability was less that what we might expect. If the eurypterid can in fact survive longer in air than is normal for aquatic creatures before suffocating, we can indicate this in terms of number of rounds per Con score appropriately.


----------



## freyar (Jul 20, 2007)

I'd go on the high end of STR since this is a grappler, maybe lower on DEX.

So, the aquatic version of tremorsense, then?


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2007)

We can borrow this from teh sahuagin...

Water Dependent (Ex): Sahuagin can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules on page 304 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide).

Can anyone give me a sample creature with "water tremorsense"?   The diving spider variant from Stormwrack simply says that they can use their tremorsense underwater.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Can anyone give me a sample creature with "water tremorsense"?   The diving spider variant from Stormwrack simply says that they can use their tremorsense underwater.



Well the jellyfish swarm (Stormwrack p.161-2) has this entry

Tremorsense (Ex): A jellyfish swarm can detect and pinpoint any creature in the water within 30 feet.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2007)

Great!  Thanks.    

I started it up in Homebrews.

For speed, do we want to give it just a land speed, or also a swim speed?

Its AC converts to 17 per the conversion guidelines.  That would result in a +7 natural armor bonus.  A Medium monstrous scorpion has a +4 natural armor bonus.  Is +7 too high?


----------



## freyar (Jul 20, 2007)

I'd give it a swim speed, but probably a slow one.  And this thing is probably a bit tougher than a scorpion, even a monstrous one, so why not a high AC?  Good for RBDMs everywhere.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For speed, do we want to give it just a land speed, or also a swim speed?



The wikipedia entry does mention that some of them could swim so yes a swim speed seems reasonable.


			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> Some eurypterids have paddles, which were used to propel themselves through water. Some argue that the paddles were also used for digging. Underneath, in addition to the pair of swimming appendages the creature had 4 pairs of jointed legs for walking, and two small claws at the front






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Its AC converts to 17 per the conversion guidelines.  That would result in a +7 natural armor bonus.  A Medium monstrous scorpion has a +4 natural armor bonus.  Is +7 too high?



No I don't reckon +7 is too high.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2007)

Speed 20 ft., swim 10 ft.?


----------



## Mortis (Aug 1, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Speed 20 ft., swim 10 ft.?



Looks OK. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 1, 2007)

Actually I'd reverse those speeds, even for amphibious species, and definitely they can't use the Run action on land. I've got to check with other statted amphibious creatures, though.


----------



## Shade (Aug 22, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Actually I'd reverse those speeds, even for amphibious species, and definitely they can't use the Run action on land. I've got to check with other statted amphibious creatures, though.




Sounds good.  You're the expert.


----------



## Mortis (Aug 23, 2007)

Homebrews said:
			
		

> Abilities: Str 15, Dex 11, Con 13, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
> Skills: -
> Feats: 2



A mindless vermin doesn't generally have any feats, still we could give it a bonus one.

I'm happy with switching the speeds around too.

CR 2?

...and looks down except for the flavour text.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2007)

Good catch on the (should lack) feats.

Updated.  I'll work on flavor text soon.


----------



## RavinRay (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh, BTW, if you want to see a video of a eurypterid and how it moves, check out the _Walking With Monsters_ video from BBC at YouTube. It's in the first half.

Edit: If you go through the entire 12-part series, there are several beasties there that might be on BOZ's list which can serve as inspiration for statting them. I'll go back and list the critters which appear in the videos.


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2007)

Cool, I'll have to check that out.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Sep 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Cool, I'll have to check that out.




It's very cool.  I have the DVD!

RC


----------



## Mortis (Sep 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated.  I'll work on flavor text soon.



Just noticed that we need the flavour text for this one.

No hurry though just a head's up 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Oh, BTW, if you want to see a video of a eurypterid and how it moves, check out the _Walking With Monsters_ video from BBC at YouTube. It's in the first half.




I finally found the opportunity to watch this...fascinating.    

The scorpions didn't appear to swim.  Should we drop the swim speed?


----------



## RavinRay (Oct 2, 2007)

The scorpions _per se_ didn't swim, but their gigantic eurypterid cousins did. I'm glad you liked it.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2007)

So stick with Speed 10 ft., swim 20 ft.?


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Oct 2, 2007)

How about stats for this bear dog species:

Daphoenodon

Low slung, slim, shorter legs and a long, almost catlike tail.  I suck at statting animals, but in my upcoming campaign, they are the prized pets of kings and noblemen.


----------



## freyar (Oct 3, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So stick with Speed 10 ft., swim 20 ft.?




Sounds good to me.


----------



## RavinRay (Oct 3, 2007)

Yup, I'm for it too.


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2007)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> How about stats for this bear dog species:
> 
> Daphoenodon
> 
> Low slung, slim, shorter legs and a long, almost catlike tail.  I suck at statting animals, but in my upcoming campaign, they are the prized pets of kings and noblemen.




Will do.  We're almost done with the eurypterid.

Speaking of which, I updated Homebrews.   How's it looking now?


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Oct 8, 2007)

Looks good.  I'd not mess with it!


----------



## Shade (Oct 9, 2007)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> How about stats for this bear dog species:
> 
> Daphoenodon
> 
> Low slung, slim, shorter legs and a long, almost catlike tail.  I suck at statting animals, but in my upcoming campaign, they are the prized pets of kings and noblemen.




Was this fella presented in D&D in previous editions?   If not, it's not a conversion, but we can digress to come up with stats for it nonetheless.  It should be fairly easy to extrapolate from the Amphicyon.


----------



## RavinRay (Oct 10, 2007)

_Daphoenodon_ was to _Amphicyon_ as ponies or donkeys are to horses, sort of. We can compare those equine stats to how to extrapolate.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Oct 10, 2007)

Ehhh..don't stress it.  Daphaenodonts were wolf to coyote sized with long, almost weasel like bodies, dog like heads, and tails nearly as long as their bodies.  You can see a pic here:

http://www.visitscottsbluff.com/images/bdogscan1.jpg


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

Pony (M):  Str 13, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Light Horse (L):  Str 14, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Wolf (M):  Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Hyena (M):  Str 14, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6

Amphicyon (L):  Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6


----------



## Mortis (Oct 10, 2007)

The picture might be misleadin but it doesn't look anywhere near as strong as the Amphicyon, so saying that and also allowing for the decrease in size to Medium I would suggest abilities along the lines of:-

Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2007)

What do our resident paleontologists think?


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Oct 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> What do our resident paleontologists think?




I think I'd lower the STR to 14 and increase the WIS to 14.  The Miocene Epoch saw a rapid and diverse evolution of mammals, so it's likely there'd have been a lot of competition for food.   Being slightly smaller than some of the other apex predators of the time, I think Daphaenodon would've relied on wits as much as muscle to get by.


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2007)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> I think I'd lower the STR to 14 and increase the WIS to 14.  The Miocene Epoch saw a rapid and diverse evolution of mammals, so it's likely there'd have been a lot of competition for food.   Being slightly smaller than some of the other apex predators of the time, I think Daphaenodon would've relied on wits as much as muscle to get by.




It is nice to have subject matter experts in residence.    

So ability scores of Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6.

How many Hit Dice do you suppose?  The amphicyon has 7 HD.  Maybe 3-4?


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Oct 12, 2007)

4 sounds good.  Both dogs and bears are pretty tough and can take a lot of punishment.  There was a story on the local news tonight about a chocolate lab found wandering around with a bullet lodged in her lower jaw.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2007)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> 4 sounds good.  Both dogs and bears are pretty tough and can take a lot of punishment.  There was a story on the local news tonight about a chocolate lab found wandering around with a bullet lodged in her lower jaw.




Cool.  Modifying the amphicyon to adjust for size, HD, and new ability scores yields the following.  It will need to lose one feat.

*Daphaenodon*
Medium Animal  
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp) 
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) 
Armor Class: 15 (+2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Claw +5 melee (1d6+2) 
Full Attack: 2 claws +5 melee (1d6+2) and bite +0 melee (2d6+1)  
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Trip 
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent  
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +3  
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6  
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +6, Swim +5
Feats: Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (Bite)*, Run, Track  
Environment: Temperate plains 
Organization: Solitary or pair 
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large), 9-12 HD (Large) 
Level Adjustment: - 

COMBAT 

Trip (Ex): A daphaenodon that hits with its bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+2 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the amphicyon. 

Skills: A daphaenodon has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.*


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Oct 12, 2007)

That looks awesome!!!!   Thanks!!!!!


----------



## Mortis (Oct 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It will need to lose one feat.



Endurance?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Endurance?




Yeah, that's probably the least needed.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Oct 15, 2007)

I would just like to take a moment to thank you guys for doing all this work, which has definitely made the game better IMHO.

RC


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> I would just like to take a moment to thank you guys for doing all this work, which has definitely made the game better IMHO.
> 
> RC




Thanks!  It's a labor of love, though, so we don't mind.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Oct 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Thanks!  It's a labor of love, though, so we don't mind.




Cool.  But it's never a bad thing to know that your work is appreciated.

RC


----------



## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> I would just like to take a moment to thank you guys for doing all this work, which has definitely made the game better IMHO.
> 
> RC



That's OK, anytime you feel like adding a suggestion or two to a conversion feel free. 

The more the merrier. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## dhaga (Oct 17, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> The more the merrier.



That's for sure.  The more the more ideas, too


----------



## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

I realized we never assigned a CR to this fella.  CR 2 looks about right.

Here's the final stats:

Daphaenodon
Medium Animal 
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp) 
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) 
Armor Class: 15 (+2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Claw +5 melee (1d6+2) 
Full Attack: 2 claws +5 melee (1d6+2) and bite +0 melee (2d6+1) 
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Trip 
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent 
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +3 
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6 
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +6, Swim +5
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (Bite)*, Run, Track 
Environment: Temperate plains 
Organization: Solitary or pair 
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large), 9-12 HD (Large) 
Level Adjustment: - 

COMBAT 

Trip (Ex): A daphaenodon that hits with its bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+2 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the daphaenodon. 

Skills: A daphaenodon has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.*


----------



## Mortis (Oct 24, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Trip (Ex): A daphaenodon that hits with its bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+2 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the *amphicyon*.



<whistling innocently> 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

<stealthily makes a change, slowly strolls away>


----------



## RavinRay (Oct 28, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> What do our resident paleontologists think?



I just got back from a 2-1/2 week marine geological expedition. I'll give it a look-over soon.


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

Eurpyterids in the news:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/11/20/biggest.bug.ap/index.html


----------



## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

*Dinosaur, Anchisaurus*
Climate/Terrain:  Any land
Freq: Common
Org:  Herd
Activity cycle: Day
Diet: Herbivore
Int: Non- (0)
Treasure: nil
Align: nil
# App: 2-20
AC: 7
Movement: 12
HD: 2
THAC0: 16
# Att: 1
Dmg/Att: 1-4
SA: nil
SD: climbing
MR: nil
Size: M (7' long)
Morale: Steady (11)
XP Value: 2,000

This bipedal herbivore feeds upright from time to time, but spends most of its time on all fours.  If there is vegetation large enough nearby, it will climb to escape small predators.  Its teeth are sharp enough to deliver retaliatory bites upon opponents, but the anchisaurus will not start a fight.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Three: Forgotten Realms Appendix (1989).


----------



## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

This should be really simple.

Basically, we just need ability scores, and to translate "climbing" into either a climb speed or  a racial bonus on Climb checks.


----------



## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Downsizing a parasaurolophus to Medium yields: 

Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10

Slam 1d4

Look OK?


----------



## freyar (Feb 19, 2008)

Looks good.  Let's give it a climb speed, maybe 1/2 land speed, with the associated bonuses.


----------



## Shade (Feb 19, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## RavinRay (Feb 20, 2008)

Can I just interrupt this for some breaking news? Because a real prehistoric dire toad has been discovered. Since it's named _Beelzebufo_, I'm half-temped to call it a fiendish dire toad. Google "frog from hell" and it'll pop-up on Google News. Here's a teaser article though.

*"Frog from Hell"*
BADASS FROG: Behold the mightiest attack frog known to man. Thank goodness it lived 65 or 70 million years ago. A U.S.-led team spent 15 years assembling a nearly complete skeleton of _Beelzebufo ampinga_—literally, "armored frog from hell"—a 10-pound, 16-inch beast that heaved across what is now Madagascar. Equipped with a bony head shield, big mouth and powerful jaws, researchers propose that _Beelzebufo_ (shown here in an artist's rendering) was capable of slaying small vertebrates such as lizards and perhaps hatchling dinosaurs. In girth, the animal surpasses the 13-inch goliath frog of West Africa, the reigning heavyweight frog champ at 7 pounds, and may have been the largest frog ever. Its existence also bolsters the notion that Madagascar and South America were linked during the Cretaceous period, perhaps by Antarctica: The armored amphibian is closely related to a group of aggressive South American hoppers known as "pac-man frogs" for their large mouths, the group reports in this week's Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Wow!   That's one big toad.   Love the scientific name.


----------



## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

With a name like that, it has to be an infernal dire toad.  Just swap out some languages from the abyssal dire frog in the ToH, and you're all set. 

Back to the other thing: should we put all the skill ranks into climb?  I could also see hide, spot, and listen.  For the feat, maybe alertness?  That's always good for animals.  

CR 1?  If you all agree, I guess it's done.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

I agree, and consider it done.


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

*Dinosaur, Pentaceratops*
Climate/Terrain: Any land
Freq: Common
Org: Herd
Activity cycle: Day
Diet: Herbivore
Int: Non- (0)
Treasure: nil
Align: nil
# App: 2-12
AC: 2/6
Movement: 9
HD: 12
THAC0: 9
# Att: 3
Dmg/Att: 1-6/1-10/1-10
SA: trample 
SD: see below
MR: nil
Size: H (20' long)
Morale: Steady (12)
XP Value: 2,000

This is another of the quadrupedal dinosaurs of the ornithischian order; it is a relative of monoclonius, styracosaurus, and triceratops.  The name pentaceratops means "five-horned face", but the aggressive herbivore really has only three true horns--the two apparent horns on the sides of its face are only cheek bones.  Its shield (sometimes reaching over much of the back) and horns give its head AC 2, while the unprotected parts of its body are AC 6.  If it charges it can trample smaller creatures, inflicting 2d10 points of damage.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Three: Forgotten Realms Appendix (1989).


----------



## freyar (Mar 6, 2008)

Should we start with triceratops stats Str 30, Dex 9, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7?  What are the attacks in the Dmg/Att line, do you think?  Bite and 2 gores or something?


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

According to Wikipedia...

Penataceratops was about 8 m (27 ft) long, and has been estimated to have weighed around 5,500 kg (13,000 lb).

Individual Triceratops are estimated to have reached about 7.9 to 9.0 m (26.0–29.5 ft) in length, 2.9 to 3.0 m (9.5–9.8 ft) in height, and 6.1–12.0 tonnes (13,000-26,000 lb) in weight.

So they are pretty comparable in size.

I'm not sure what the three attacks represent, but I think it would be safe to just go with a gore like the triceratops.

Comparing game stats to triceratops:

Tri had 4 more HD, did more damage (1-8/1-12/1-12) and had a deadlier trample (2-12), and was 4 feet longer.  Otherwise, they were identical.

Other than that, I'm not finding much to differentiate them from triceratops in game stats.  Perhaps we could give them greater natural armor and/or a chance to avoid critical hits due to the larger "shield"?


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

Hmmm, so let's make pentaceratops a little weaker in terms of physical stats, maybe Str 26, Dex 11, Con 21 or so.  Light fortification sounds good, maybe in place of powerful charge?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 7, 2008)

I could rant for a while 'bout dinosaur stats... the unfortunate truth of the matter is that triceratops was the only ceratopsian with full bony infill of its frill, so if any of them deserved light fort, it'd be them. But the MM made dinosaurs _boring_.

If we wanted to reflect the science, and we totally don't have to, the frill would be used for display. So, a racial bonus to Intimidate checks and frightful presence. Maybe the skin on the frill changes color to resemble giant staring eyes?

Demiurge out.


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## RavinRay (Mar 7, 2008)

The three face horns of the pentaceratops should really count as one attack (1d6) since the dino can't aim them separately and they are spaced closely anyway. I doubt it will bite (I don't know of horned belligerent herbivore biting to attack or defend). The two 1d10's could be the cheek horns though these are actually shorter than the other three, but maybe the dino applied more force when tossing its head sideways.

Demiurge's got a good idea about the frill. And, in fact, in _Walking With Dinosaurs_, the _torosaurus_ frill does sport eye spots.

As a sidebar, ceratopsians split into two groups: the short-frilled family _(Triceratops)_ and the long-frilled family _(Torosaurus)_.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

That works for me.  I'm all for anything that differentiates them further, and will always defer to experts in the field.    

So drop the powerful charge, retain the trample, and add the frightful presence/Intimidate bonus?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 7, 2008)

Agreed.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

I like how that looks.  Let's make it a +8 Intimidate bonus.

Max out Spot for the skill or maybe split with Listen (always useful for those herbivorous dinosaurs).  Not sure about feats.  We could go Power Attack, Imp Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, but that kind of goes against the grain with what we have been doing.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 8, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Max out Spot for the skill or maybe split with Listen (always useful for those herbivorous dinosaurs).  Not sure about feats.  We could go Power Attack, Imp Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, but that kind of goes against the grain with what we have been doing.



I agree on splitting Spot and Listen. And yeah, too bad that the feats will suck, if the dinosaurs in MM are to be believed. Alertness, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Run, Toughness?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2008)

Toughness is pretty bad.  Maybe Power Attack or even Lightning Reflexes?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 9, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Toughness is pretty bad.  Maybe Power Attack or even Lightning Reflexes?



I agree with how bad Toughness is. I'm grating under precedent. 

I'd say Iron Will over Lightning Reflexes. There's a lot of herbivorous animals that get it.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2008)

Iron Will sounds fine to me.  Sure.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

So...Alertness, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Run?

FWIW, the Seismosaurus has Awesome Blow and Power Attack, and it's herbivorous.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> So...Alertness, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Run?
> 
> FWIW, the Seismosaurus has Awesome Blow and Power Attack, and it's herbivorous.



 Well, we moved away from the powerful charge and everything, so it almost would seem contradictory to go with awesome blow, no matter how much more sense it would make for a real dino.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

Updated.

CR 7?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

Yeah, probably not any more than that.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Sounds about right to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

*Dinosaur, Ornitholestes*
Climate/Terrain: Any plain
Freq: Rare
Org: Pack
Activity cycle: Day
Diet: Carnivore
Int: Non- (0)
Treasure: nil
Align: nil
# App: 2-12
AC: 4
Movement: 24
HD: 2
THAC0: 19
# Att: 1
Dmg/Att: 2-8
SA: trample 
SD: nil
MR: nil
Size: M (6-1/2' tall)
Morale: Average (10)
XP Value: 35

This exceptionally fast carnivore roams the plains hunting small prey, from insects and eggs to creatures its own size.  Although quite light in weight, it is difficult to strike an ornitholestes because of its speed.  Packs of ornitholestes have been known to attack larger creatures if the dinosaurs significantly outnumber their victims and they are sufficiently hungry.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Three: Forgotten Realms Appendix (1989).


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Sizing up a compsognathus to Medium yields:

Abilities: Str 12, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 11
+4 natural armor


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Sounds fine.  Any appropriate special abilities to add, or are these just exceptionally boring?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Here's what a search yielded.  Perhaps our resident dino experts can add to or refute these.

Ornitholestes means "bird robber"

Ornitholestes was 7 feet long and 16 inches tall at the hips. It weighed 25 pounds.

Its long tail was probably used for balance and agility, allowing this predator to change directions quickly as it chased prey. 

Ornitholestes was a very fast bipedal runner.

Ornitholestes was a carnivore, a meat eater. It may also have been a scavenger. 

Here's a nice link:  http://www.abc.net.au/dinosaurs/fact_files/scrub/ornitholestes.htm


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Just not seeing much for special abilities here.  Maybe a "burst of speed" ability, useful several times a day?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

That could work, akin to the cheetah's sprint.

Racial bonus on Balance checks?

I'm not sure about trample...stampede almost seems more appropriate.

Let's see what the dino-experts have to say.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Yeah, a balance bonus makes sense.  I'd probably say no to trample -- these aren't that big, after all -- but maybe stampede.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 14, 2008)

Well, they're dinosaurs in D&D, so of course they're boring! [/sarcasm]

Ornitholestes are pretty generalist predators, it's true. We could give them improved grab for Small or smaller prey (as -lestes means "thief"), mentioning that they don't attack humanoids but might be tempted by a tasty familiar.

I also think they should be more dexterous. It mentions that they're hard to hit due to their speed, which indicates a higher Dex bonus than natural armor. We could also give them uncanny dodge.

Demiurge out.


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## RavinRay (Mar 15, 2008)

I was about to say Improved Grab but Demiurge beat me to it. Especially if we want it to live up to its name, it could snatch Small or smaller, low-flying birds in flight.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

So bump Dex to 19 or so and add improved grab?


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

I'd say that sounds good.  So we have improved grab and possibly stampede and sprint.  +4 racial bonus to balance, I guess.  How's this looking?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Added to Homebrews assuming Dex 19.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2008)

I like it, but don't know where stampede is coming from. Seems more appropriate for a herd-dwelling herbivore than a fast, pack-hunting carnivore. Deinonychus doesn't have stampede, after all.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I like it, but don't know where stampede is coming from. Seems more appropriate for a herd-dwelling herbivore than a fast, pack-hunting carnivore. Deinonychus doesn't have stampede, after all.




It came as a replacement for trample, but I'm all for dropping it, as it has plenty of abilities now.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

Yeah, let's drop stampede.  This is starting to look good.

For skills, do we want to max Jump?  An alternative (I think I like better) is maxing Hide, since this seems to hunt like a big cat might.

Feat: I could see Run as being in the right spirit, but we might find something more effective in combat.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Maybe the dino-experts can weigh in, but I don't see anything to indicate stealth.  It seems that if it sees something it wants to eat, it races after it and grabs it.

Run is probably a good feat for them.

Updated.


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## RavinRay (Mar 17, 2008)

Stealth makes sense if it's a stalk-and-ambush predator (like a lion) rather than a stalk-and-chase predator (like a wolf). The former has short, bulky muscles for the quick bursts of energy for ambush, while the latter has long, lean muscles for sustained chases. Since _Ornitholestes_ has long lean muscles, I'd say it's a chaser (hence no Stealth), but that doesn't mean it wouldn't ambush from time to time.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

I think freyar's got the right idea. The thing to remember is that Ornitholestes is a small generalist predator, not the apex of its food chain. Being able to hide would keep Ornitholestes from getting snapped up by larger predators in addition to allowing it to stalk close to prey before giving chase.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

Hide it is, then.  

Updated.

CR 1?

Advancement:  3-6 HD (Medium)?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

CR 1. It's a tricky CR 1, though, with a high AC. It might be a good idea to reduce its natural armor bonus to +2.

That advancement line sounds right to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

Sounds good.  And another one is done.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

*Therezinosaurus*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12/2-12/3-18
SIZE: L (4O’ long)
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

This murderous large carnosaur took rather a different route from the usual carnosaur reliance on large teeth. “The slasher” relies at least as much on its claws as on its fangs.

Most large carnosaurs have small forelegs, but therezinosaurus’ “arms” are an incredible eight feet long, terminating in two-foot-long claws curved like scimitars.  The creature stands 12 feet tall when moving.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #55 (1981).


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therizinosaur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therizinosaurus


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

"Slasher", nothing. Therezinosaurs were lovable herbivores, something like a giant dino-sloth. Here's a conversion I did a long while ago (so long it's still 3.0) that we might be able to glean some usefulness from.

Therizinosaurus
Huge Beast
Hit Dice: 16d10+128 (216 hp)
Initiative: +1 (Dex)
Speed: 30 ft
AC: 18 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural)
Attacks:  2 claws +18 melee, bite +13 melee
Damage:  Claw 2d8+8 (19-20, x4), bite 1d4+4
Face/Reach: 10ft by 10ft/10ft
Special Attacks:  Augmented criticals, rend 4d8+12
Special Qualities: Scent
Saves:  Fort +18, Ref +11, Will +6
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 12, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +10, Spot +10
Climate/Terrain: Warm forest, hills, plains or marsh
Organization: Solitary, pair, flock (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 17-32 HD (Huge), 33-48 HD (Gargantuan)

The therizinosaurus is a bizarre omnivorous dinosaur that, while relatively docile, is dangerous when provoked.

Therizinosaurus stands about 20 feet tall and about 30 feet long. Unlike most dinosaurs, it has a semi-erect posture instead of holding itself parallel to the ground. Its arms are long and apelike, ending in three razor-sharp claws. It has a long neck and a disproportionately small head, with both teeth and a beak. A downy coat covers its entire body.

Therizinosaurus eats mostly fruit, leaves and insects (tearing open termite mounds with its massive claws), but is not averse to scavenging. It will also eat the meat of anything it slays in defense. 

Combat
Therizinosaurus, when riled, attacks with its massive claws, tearing at its opponents flesh until it dies. The kills of a therizinosaurus tend to be messy, a fact which makes them avoided by all intelligent inhabitants of their territory.

Augmented Critical (Ex): The claws of a therizinosaurus are very thin and razor sharp. It threatens a critical hit with its claws on a natural attack roll of 19-20. On a successful critical hit, the claw attacks deal quadruple damage. 

Rend (Ex): If a therizinosaurus hits with both claw attacks, it latches on and tears its opponent’s flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 4d8+12 points of damage.

Well, switching from Beast to Animal is a given. I still like the idea of augmented critical, but could go either way on rend.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

Seems like you're pretty close to the original already, pretty much just slightly different on the HD.  I'd say we start from your 3.0 version.

Regarding rend: seems like we might want to get away from that if we want to treat these as herbivores.  However, it might be worthwhile to add some interesting combat feats.


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## RavinRay (Mar 21, 2008)

We could go either way. If it has rend maybe it's because it's an aggressively defensive herbivore. If it has a combat feat it means it has a particularly notable way of defending itself beyond the usual slash.

BTW, if you want to see feathered Chinese dinosaurs (like _therizinosaurus_) in all their glory, artist Luis V. Rey's website  has a wonderful gallery. Eye candy!


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

That looks like a great start.

I 3.5ed it in Homebrews.

I'm fine with keeping rend, even if it is a defensive measure.

Demiurge pegged it at 20 feet tall and about 30 feet long.  Dragon said 12 feet tall and 40 feet long.  Wikipedia says it could grow up to 33-40 feet long and reach 3-6 tons in weight.  What is most accurate, dino-experts?

Beyond that, all that's left is an italicized description and feats, of which it gets 6.


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## RavinRay (Mar 21, 2008)

Complete skeletons have not yet been found, so the 30 ft length is a tad conservative estimate and it could be bigger (a similar case for _Quetzalcoatlus_); it seems like a scaled-up _Beipiaosaurus_.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

So following the Wikipedia suggestion might be the best approach?


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

I guess that sounds about right.

Feats: if we're making it an aggressive herbivore, we could give it Awesome Blow or Snatch (or both!).  Multiattack would change the attack line, but I think it's worth it.  Alertness and maybe Dodge because it is an herbivore, after all.  Any other ideas?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 21, 2008)

I say use Wikipedia for the size estimates. Awesome Blow, Imp Bull's Rush and Power Attack are great places to go, feats wise. For the other three, how about Alertness, Endurance and Great Fortitude? Great Fortitude makes sense to me, as it's a hardy omnivore. Since it's not really optimal at using its bite aggressively, I think we should skip Multiattack. 

Another possibility, borrowing from my World of Kong project for similar hardy omnivore dinosaurs, is that we give it all three good saves, like a dire animal. 

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2008)

I'm fine to drop Multiattack.  Regarding saves, I think I'd prefer Great Fort over changing the base saves.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2008)

Well, really, what changing the base saves would do would be give it a good Will (animals already get Fort and Reflex, with some pack animals and dire animals also getting Will). I'd be content with either Great Fort or Iron Will, or both and drop Alertness. It doesn't have to be too observant--it only eats stuff that isn't moving, and if any predators try to fight it, they'll probably end up ripped in half.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 23, 2008)

Let's go with the standard saves for dinos and add GF and IW.  Why not?


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

Updated.  All done?


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2008)

I think so!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2008)

I think so too.

Demiurge out.


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## RavinRay (Mar 25, 2008)

I'm happy with it.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

*Kronosaurus*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subtropical/tropical, any water
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: SW15
HIT DICE: 17
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 7d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallow whole
SPECIAL DEFENCE: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (42')
MORALE: Champion (16)
XP VALUE: 11,000

This was the largest of the plesiosaur family, but it looked little like its relatives.  Kronosaurus had a short, thick neck and a huge flat skull similar to that of a crocodile.  At 9’ long, Kronosaurus’s skull was larger than that of Tyrannosaurus rex.  The total length of Kronosaurus was 42’, but the body was massive and thick, not elongated as in Plesiosaurus. This beast looked much like a crocodile with flippers.  It fed on large fish and squid. Creatures up to man-size will be swallowed whole on a roll of four or more over what it needs to hit.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #187 (1992).

Wikipedia Entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronosaurus


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## RavinRay (Mar 26, 2008)

Quick take: with such a gaping maw it must have Swallow Whole, and as the jaws in all likelihood applied a tremendous amount of force it could have Ability Focus (bite), increased damage, or Improved Grab.

Here's a video of it's close relative _Liopleurodon_ attacking, from _Walking With Dinosaurs_.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Improved grab, swallow whole seem right to me. Bonus to Hide checks made underwater, and ranks in Move Silently.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Here's a video of it's close relative _Liopleurodon_ attacking, from _Walking With Dinosaurs_.




Thanks!  _Walking with Dinosaurs_ was on the other night, but I missed that part.

Hmm...the liopleurodon appeared in Dragon Magazine #318 as a Colossal 38-HD monster.  I suppose we could just reverse-engineer it down to 17 HD and Gargantuan.   Doing so would look like this...

Gargantuan Animal
Hit Dice: 17d8+170 (246 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Swim 90 ft. (18 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (-4 size, +15 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+38
Attack: Bite +22 melee (3d8+21/19-20)
Full Attack: Bite +22 melee (3d8+21/19-20)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Frenzy, improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Hold breath, keen scent, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +10, Will +8
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 10, Con 30, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 13
Skills: Spot +23, Swim +22
Feats: Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Power Attack
Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 18-34 HD (Gargantuan); 35-51 HD (Colossal)

Frenzy (Ex): If a kronosaurus is reduced to less than half its normal maximum hit points, it flies into a terrible rage of frenzied activity. During a frenzy, a kronosaurus gains a +4 bonus to its Armor Class and attack rolls. Its swim speed gains a +30 foot bonus, and if it makes a full attack action it gains an additional bite attack. The frenzy persists for 1 minute, after which the kronosaurus cannot enter a frenzy while it is fatigued.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a kronosaurus must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A kronosaurus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check.

The swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the liopleurodon's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 45 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 20). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed creature must cut its own way out.

A Gargantuan kronosaurus's gizzard can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, or 128 Tiny or smaller opponents.

Hold Breath (Ex): A kronosaurus can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 8 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Keen Scent (Ex): A kronosaurus can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius, and it can sense blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.

Skills: A kronosaurus has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, evne if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

(Note that I did not modify the swallow whole damage, amount needed to escape, or AC of interior).


Of course, if you dino-experts think other changes should be made, I'm all for it.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Looks about right to me.

Since plesiosaurs (so far as we know) didn't give live birth like icthyosaurs, I think we should give ol' Kronosaurus a 5ft land speed, so it can drag itself onto the shore to lay eggs.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

Added to Homebrews (including land speed).

Suggestions for swallow whole damage and amount needed to cut out?  I believe the interior AC is 17 (10 + 1/2 natural armor).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

The bonus damage should be equal to its Str bonus, so 14. The acid seems fine. Might want to reduce the gizzard hps from 45 to 35 or 30 (purple worms have 25 and are also Gargantuan, but this strikes me as somewhat harder to bust out of. More muscle mass).

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Updated.  Anything left?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2008)

Looks done to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

*Utahraptor*
Climate/Terrain: Any tropical
Frequency: Rare
Org: Pack
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Carnivor
Int: Animal (1)
Treasure: Nil
Align: Neutral
# App:  5-20 adults
AC: 5
Movement: 19
HD: 7+3
THAC0: 13
# Attacks: 5
Dmg/Att: 1-6/1-6/2-8/2-8/1-10
SA: Jump, grasping claws
SD: Coloration
MR: Standard
Size: L (20' long)
Morale: Fearless (19)
XP Value: 975

The utahraptor is a carnivorous dinosaur related to the deinonychus, only it is much larger.  The utahraptor is 20' long, stands 15' high, and weighs around 1,500 lbs.  It stands upright on two stout legs, with its tail held stiffly out behind for balance, and has powerful "arms" with 10" claws.  The raptor also has a 12"-long curved sickle claw on each foot; a horrible weapon used for gutting large prey.  Their brown and green coloration blends well with trees in the forests.

Combat:  Utahraptors attack with their arms first, clawing at the target in hopes of getting a firm grasp.  If both claw attack succeed, the next two attacks (the sickle-clawed feet) are at +2 attack rolls.  The final attack is with the creature's powerful jaws.  One weakness of the raptor is its multiple attacks can be used only against a single target.  Utahraptors are quick and agile and can leap at prey out of ambush; the leap is considered a charge, giving the raptor a +2 to attack rolls the first round.

The raptor's coloring allows them to hide well in foliage.  If hiding in ambush, the raptors are 75% likely to be unseen (effectively invisible) adn can be located only by magic.  They are able to leap 15' high from a standing start; at least 40' if running.  They can leap 25' high and 50' forward and can drop down 25' without damage.

Utahraptors are intelligent for dinosaurs, but still rather stupid.  This makes them utterly fearless.  They do not check morale unless all adults in the pack are slain (the morale rating is for young and hatchling raptors).  Utahraptors are genetically driven to attack creatures much larger than themselves and are immune to magical fear.

Habitat/Society:  Utahraptors live in packs, much like lions.  However, the leader is the largest female, not a male.  The raptors are cooperative animals, coordinating hunts to set up cunning ambushes.  Each pack has a clearly defined territory, which may expand as more food is needed when the pack increases in number.  The raptors prefer dense forests and brush habitat.  A pack is roughly divided between males and females.  There are also plenty of young, not fully grown (equal to deinonychus from the Monstrous Manual tome).  The pack includes a number of these young equal to 150% of the adults.  There are also several hatchlings, equal in number to 200% of the adults; these have 1-4 hp and a damage of 1/1-2/1-2/1-4.  Adult raptors become enraged if their young or eggs are threatened, and they gain a +1 to attack and damage rolls when fighting these intruders.

Ecology:  Utahraptors are pure carnivores.  They attack prey of any size and do not hesitate to tackle creatures much larger than themselves.  They are on top of the food chain and have no enemies save for other utahraptor packs.

From Dungeon Magazine #54 (1995).


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Wikipedia entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utahraptor

My gut reaction was "aren't these just megaraptors", but apparently megaraptors aren't actually dromaeosaurs, but are more closely related to allosaurus.

So, dino-experts, should we convert this one to right the wrongs of the Monster Manual?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2008)

Yeah, real "megaraptors" aren't dromeosaurs. We could convert them for the thoroughness, but the stats would look very similar indeed.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

Here's the megaraptor.  What should we change?

Megaraptor
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+43 (79 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+15
Attack: Talons +10 melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: Talons +10 melee (2d6+5) and 2 foreclaws +5 melee (1d4+2) and bite +5 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +9, Jump +27, Listen +12, Spot +12, Survival +12
Feats: Run, Toughness, Track
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9–16 HD (Huge); 17–24 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: --

This creature is a larger version of the deinonychus, standing about 12 feet tall with a total length of 24 feet. It has the same appearance, habits, and abilities of the smaller version.

Combat

Pounce (Ex): If a megaraptor charges, it can make a full attack.

Skills: A megaraptor has a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2008)

Well, we could drop the HD back to 7 for a start, though since these look to be Huge, maybe they should actually have more HD.  Also, I think they should be immune to fear, as indicated here.


> Utahraptors are intelligent for dinosaurs, but still rather stupid. This makes them utterly fearless. They do not check morale unless all adults in the pack are slain (the morale rating is for young and hatchling raptors). Utahraptors are genetically driven to attack creatures much larger than themselves and are immune to magical fear.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Wikipedia states that it is "Up to 6.5 m (21 ft) long, 2 m (6.6 ft) tall, and 700 kg (1,500 lb) in weight, Utahraptor would have been a formidable predator."

That could put in either Large or Huge size category, depending on which portion you which to focus.

If we went with Large, and allowed advancement to Huge, that would cover the next two size categories for the "raptor tree".

Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2008)

Keep it Large. Ironically, the dinosaur that Megaraptor really is (rather than the raptor), should be Huge.

...oh, WoTC...

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

I guess we should start large and stick with 7HD.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Rather than just copying the megaraptor's stats, let's try advancing a deinonychus to Large...

Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+42 (73 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+17
Attack: Talons +7 melee (2d6+8)
Full Attack: Talons +7 melee (2d6+8) and 2 foreclaws +2 melee (1d4+4) and bite +2 melee (2d6+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +6, Jump +30, Listen +10, Spot +10, Survival +10
Feats: Run, Track, 1 more
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

Pounce (Ex): If a utahraptor charges, it can make a full attack.

Skills: A utahraptor has a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.


Does that look OK, or are the megaraptor stats closer to how you'd envision the utahraptor?


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## RavinRay (Apr 2, 2008)

Let's compare the megaraptor to the advanced deinonychus:

hp: mega- slightly higher
Str, Dex, Con: mega- has higher Dex but lower Str and Con
Talons, claw, bite: deino- slightly higher
The advanced deino- packs slightly more punch for a loss of one HD compared to the mega-. I think I'll go for the former.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

Great!  How about a more useful third feat than Toughness?

Cap advancement at Huge?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 2, 2008)

Multiattack for the third feat.

And capping advancement at Huge makes D&D sense, if not paleontological sense. So I say do it.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

Not necessarily paleontological, but the original monster is immune to fear effects, which I think would be interesting for a dino.  Anyone have an opinion?



> Utahraptors are intelligent for dinosaurs, but still rather stupid. This makes them utterly fearless. They do not check morale unless all adults in the pack are slain (the morale rating is for young and hatchling raptors). Utahraptors are genetically driven to attack creatures much larger than themselves and are immune to magical fear.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

That almost borders on "magical beast" territory.   Anyone else have an opinion?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 3, 2008)

Give it Iron Will as a bonus feat?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Give it Iron Will as a bonus feat?
> 
> Demiurge out.



 That's a good compromise.  I'm happy with Iron Will.


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

Brilliant!

All done?


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

All done!


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

*UINTATHERIUM*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite, or 1 charge with trample
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8, or 2-16 and 2-8/2-8
% IN LAIR: Nil (free roaming)
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

This bizarre Eocene animal was the size of a large rhinoceros and was herbivorous, but had large molar fangs. (As a side note, many herbivores of the early Cenozoic had fangs.) Six small, knobby horns appeared on its head. Uintatherium attacked with its fangs and forefeet. It could charge like a rhinoceros.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 4, 2008)

Powerful charge like a rhino, attack line gore, bite, two stamps? Give it a trample attack? Multiattack would make sense, feat-wise.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Not much more information at Wikipedia.

Basically take a rhino, add a bite and stamp attacks, modify speed and other differences, and call it a day?


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## RavinRay (Apr 4, 2008)

At first I was not sure it should have a gore attack, but seeing that bison and boar have them, why not? Trample yes, stamp I doubt.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

So...

Uintatherium 
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 9d8+45 (85 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Gore +13 melee (2d6+12)
Full Attack: Gore +13 melee (2d6+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Powerful charge, trample 2d8+12
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (gore)
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2–8)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 10–12 HD (Large); 13–27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

An uintatherium is 6 to 14 feet long, 3 to 6 feet high at the shoulder, and weighs up to 6,000 pounds. 

Combat

Powerful Charge (Ex): An uintatherium deals 4d6+24 points of damage when it makes a charge.

Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 22. The save DC is Strength-based.


Also, according to Wikipedia:

"The large upper canines were apparently formidable defensive weapons, which resembled the canines of the saber-toothed cats and were larger in males than in females."

So borrow this?

Augmented Critical (Ex): A saber-toothed tiger deals triple damage if it scores a critical hit with its bite attack.

Anything else we'd like to switch around?  The feats could probably change.


----------



## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Let's not forget to put the bite in the attack line.  As for the feats, I'd probably put Multiattack in over Endurance or Imp Nat Attack.  Augmented Critical sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Looks good!  Does it need anything besides the fluff?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 5, 2008)

They've only got two natural weapons, so they don't qualify for Multiattack. We'd have to give it to them as a bonus feat.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 5, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> They've only got two natural weapons, so they don't qualify for Multiattack. We'd have to give it to them as a bonus feat.
> 
> Demiurge out.



 You're right as usual.  Maybe we should just go back to Imp Natural Attack.


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

How about Weapon Focus (gore) to help offset the secondary attack penalty?


----------



## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Or that would work as well.   I think it's done with that.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Updated and added flavor text.  All done?


----------



## Khisanth the Ancient (Apr 7, 2008)

Looks good.


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Here's a "giant goanna", so it seems like a good time to convert it.  

*Megalania (giant plains lizard)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Savannah
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 2-16 or 2-5
SIZE: G (26'long)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: 650

Megalania was not a mammal, but a giant lizard that hunted on the Pleistocene plains of Australia. It looked much like modern monitor lizards and the Komodo dragon, having long, serrated teeth.

Combat: The giant plains lizard attacks with its bite. Like other giant lizards, the bite does double damage on an attack roll of 20. Anyone behind the lizard can be attacked by a slash of its tail, doing 2-5 hp damage and being knocked down if a dexterity check on 4d6 is failed.

Habitat/Society: Megalania is a solitary hunter, inactive at night and during the hottest hours of the day. It ambushes its prey from concealing grass and shrubs. As with most reptiles, the young are left to fend for themselves, receiving no care from the parents. The giant plains lizard is at the top of the food chain, having no natural enemies.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).

Here's the Wikipedia entry that calls it a "giant goanna".

It has even achieved cryptid status:  http://www.cryptozoology.com/cryptids/megalania.php


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## freyar (May 9, 2008)

That's pretty big!  Should we eyeball or get stats by advancing the monitor lizard to G?


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

24-26' puts it in the Huge size range, so let's start there:

Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+49 (80 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +8 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+24
Attack: Bite +14 melee (3d6+11)
Full Attack: Bite +14 melee (3d6+11) or tail slap +14 melee (x+16)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 11, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Climb +14, Hide +0*, Listen +4, Move Silently +4, Spot +4, Swim +19
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, 1 more
Environment: x
Organization: x
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

Skills: A monitor lizard has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. Monitor lizards have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. *In forested or overgrown areas, the Hide bonus improves to +8.

Does 7 HD seem enough?

It sounds like it might get augmented critical for its bite and the tail sweep we gave the mythic goanna.


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## freyar (May 9, 2008)

The abilities look pretty reasonable.  As for HD, we should probably bump it up to 10-12.  What do you think?


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

I think so.  The giant banded lizard (also Huge) has 10 HD.


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## demiurge1138 (May 10, 2008)

Augmented critical for the bite, tail sweep for the tail both sound good. 

We could give it Improved Trip as a bonus feat, what with it knocking people over. Or Awesome Blow. Or both.


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## RavinRay (May 10, 2008)

Huge size is good.

12 HD is good as well. This is the largest of the varanids by far.

It's a toss-up for me between Improved Trip and Awesome Blow.

Do you want to add Disease (Ex)? Komodo dragons often kill their prey due to the infection from the bacteria-laden bite they inflict, and those wounds are terrible.

Komodos also have a good sense of smell, so mabe we can add Scent.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I went with 12-HD.   That gives a 5 feats.

How about Alertness, Awesome Blow, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, and Power Attack?  We can give it Improved Trip as a bonus feat (since it can't meet the prereq Int 13).

Any suggestions on the disease?


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Feats sound good.

How about red ache for the disease?  I'm not sure if it sounds quite right, but it's more interesting than filth fever, which is probably the natural choice.


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2008)

I am all for red ache. It doesn't get used nearly enough.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Updated.

Tail slap damage?  (2d6 is standard for Huge)

Challenge Rating: 8?  (Despite less HD, it is just as deadly as a T-Rex)

Advancement: 13-24 HD (Huge); 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)?


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

All sounds fine to me, and it looks done with that.


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2008)

Agreed. This one's done.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

That was easy.


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## RavinRay (May 13, 2008)

Komodo dragons, you've met your match (and then some)!


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

*Anancus (pike-tusked elephant)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate forest
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Herd
DIET: Herbivore
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 10+5
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 3-18/3-18/2-12/2-12
SIZE: L (10' high)
MORALE: Unsteady (7)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Anancus was an elephant adapted to woodland life. It had small ears, a small trunk, and two tremendously long (10') and straight tusks, almost as long as the animals body, that extended straight out in front of its mouth. Each tusk is worth 200-800 gp.

Combat: Anancus attacks with two tusks and both front legs. However, an opponent can be attacked by one tusk or both legs, not both tusks and legs at once.

Habitat/Society: Anancus is adapted to temperate forests, much as modern elephants roam open tropical forests. It feeds on tree and shrub foliage. Adults have no natural enemies except disease and tree blight (which destroys its habitat). The young may fall prey to large predators.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Start with the elephant and add two slams? Or just keep trample?  Do we want to do something fancy with the gore attack (like give it two)?


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

I was thinking extended reach for the tusks, at the very least.


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

I thought that at first, too, but isn't its reach 10 ft anyway?  I guess you could argue that those tusks should give it 15 ft reach...


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I thought that at first, too, but isn't its reach 10 ft anyway?  I guess you could argue that those tusks should give it 15 ft reach...




I would argue that.


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Sounds good.  Cut it back to 1 gore attack as usual for the elephant?  1 slam and 2 stamp secondary attacks like elephant?


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

According to Wikipedia, "Although not as famous, Anancus was at least as big as its cousins the mammoths."

So maybe we should base it off the wooly mammoth stats?


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Sounds good to me!


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

Start with a wooly mammoth, maybe less AC. I like the idea of 15 foot reach on the tusks.

By the by, why is the thacyleo et al in the "real world" thread, not this one?


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## freyar (May 17, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Start with a wooly mammoth, maybe less AC. I like the idea of 15 foot reach on the tusks.




Sounds fine.  Where is the wooly mammoth, btw?



> By the by, why is the thacyleo et al in the "real world" thread, not this one?




Actually, I don't think that's the only one that's gotten swapped around...


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## RavinRay (May 18, 2008)

Here's an idea of how long and straight _Anancus_ tusks were:
http://www.fossil-museum.netfirms.com/pic/images/anancus_jpg.jpg
I've got a book by famed Czech paleoartist Zdenel Burian that includes this animal so I've known this one for years.  

With those tusks, I think we can change its gore attack.

demiurge, what real-world thread is that where _Tylacoleo_ is in?


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## demiurge1138 (May 18, 2008)

The "Converting Real-World Animals and Vermin" thread is here.


----------



## freyar (May 18, 2008)

So what would you suggest for the gore, RavinRay?


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Sorry about the confusion on the real world vs. prehistoric threads.  We had started on the animals of Australia by way of the Princess Ark in the real world thread, and the wakaleo came up mixed in with modern critters like the kangaroo and kookaburra.

The woolly mammoth is in Frostburn.


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## RavinRay (May 20, 2008)

I'd like to get my hands on all proboscideans for comparison. There's the elephant from _Monster Manual_ and the SRD, dire elephant and grizzly mastodon from _Monster Manual II_, and now the woolly mammoth from _Frostburn_.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

The mastodon was in MMIII.

Frankly, the wooly mammoth is my favorite, because it has the toss mechanic, which I love. It gets improved grab on its gore, but only so it can make an immediate opposed bull's rush to a "grappled" creature without it moving. Goring people and throwing 'em around... that's what fantasy elephants are all about.


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## RavinRay (May 20, 2008)

Ok, I haven't seen all the stats yet, but from what demiurge just said, proboscideans with more closely spaced and straighter tusks are more likely to have improved grab and toss because the animal has a better chance of scooping up an opponent with the tusks.


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

Mastodon (Huge, 15 HD): Abilities: Str 32, Dex 11, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 5; slam and 2 stamps or gore; SA trample; SQ scent.

Grizzly Mastodon (Huge, 15 HD): Abilities: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 7; slam, 2 stamps and gore; SA trample; SQ scent.

Mammoth (Huge, 14 HD): Abilities: Str 34, Dex 8, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7; ; slam and 2 stamps or gore; SA improved grab, toss, trample; SQ scent.

Dire Elephant (Gargantuan, 20 HD): Str 40, Dex 11, Con 30, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 7; slam and 2 stamps or gore; SA trample; SQ scent.

Elephant (Huge, 11 HD): Abilities: Str 30, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7; slam and 2 stamps or gore; SA trample; SQ scent.


----------



## Shade (May 20, 2008)

And while we're on the subject, we might as well look ahead to the remaining unconverted Proboscideans, like Ambelodon.  I'll see if there are any others still unconverted.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Ok, I haven't seen all the stats yet, but from what demiurge just said, proboscideans with more closely spaced and straighter tusks are more likely to have improved grab and toss because the animal has a better chance of scooping up an opponent with the tusks.



Actually, I think it's really more the case of one designer thought the mechanic was cool, and it got into Frostburn despite never being used before or ever again, but that's just my take


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

Ok, sounds like we like extended reach, imp grab, and toss for the gore, but how else should we distinguish these.  The stats Shade posted above are all pretty similar, so I don't know how we want to distinguish this one.


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

These are forest-dwelling creatures, yes? 

For my World of Kong project, the following SQs may be applicable:


Jungle Movement (Ex): Venatosauruses have supreme agility and maneuverability despite their size, allowing them to pass through the thickest jungle with ease. A venatosaurus can move through light undergrowth without penalty, and treats heavy undergrowth as light undergrowth for the purposes of movement (two squares to pass through, +2 to Tumble and Move Silently DCs).

Narrow Berth (Ex): Due to its narrow body, an asperdorsus is treated as being two sizes smaller than it actually is for the purposes of squeezing (see page 149 of the Player’s Handbook for the rules for squeezing).

The asperdorsus was Gargantuan. Anacus isn't that skinny, so for narrow berth we'd probably make them count as Large.


----------



## RavinRay (May 21, 2008)

Yes, _Anancus_ was a forest dweller. If I may digress at this point, grazers (grass-eaters) have lamellar teeth for grinding silica-bearing grass while browsers (leaf-eaters) have molars with blunt points for shredding leaves. _Anancus_ was the former. It died out when the forests started regressing with the spread of grasslands.

Whatever the designer in mind thought about toss, it's good.  Those forest abilities look really cool, we can modify them for this beast.


----------



## freyar (May 21, 2008)

I also like those forest abilities from demiurge.  But we still need to figure out stats, and, honestly, I don't know how Anancus should compare to the others...


----------



## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Yeah, those forest abilities are great!   And a resounding yes to toss.

Leaving off the standard elephant and looking at the scores of the three Huge relatives, we get a range of Str 32-35, Dex 8-11, Con 23-25, Int 2, Wis 10-15, Cha 5-7.

Since they were supposedly closest to mammoths, I'd lean closer to those stats.

Maybe Str 34, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7?

That's slightly better Dex to account for needing to manuever through the forest, and slightly less Con due to the more forgiving environment.


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 21, 2008)

Looks reasonable. Are we going to stick to the listed 10 HD, or bump it to 15 to be competitive with the mammoth and mastodon? Personally, I'd be alright with leaving its HD lower.


----------



## Shade (May 21, 2008)

As would I.  It allows for some variance.


----------



## freyar (May 21, 2008)

All sounds good to me.  How's this looking?


----------



## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I used the woolly mammoth's size and weight as placeholders.

We still need natural armor.  Here are the other elephantlike creatures' modifiers:

Woolly Mammoth +10
Grizzly Mastodon +8
Mastodon +8
Elephant +7

I'm inclined to go with +8 to +9, since they were probably less shaggy and fatty than the cold-dwelling mammoths.

For feats, it gets 4:
Woolly Mammoth: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack
Grizzly Mastodon: Alertness, Endurance, Bull Rush, Power Attack, Toughness (2)
Mastodon: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (gore), Improved Natural Attack (slam), Iron Will, Toughness
Elephant: Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Listen)


----------



## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Let's go with +8 natural armor.

Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Multiattack, Power Attack


----------



## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Its odd that none of them have Awesome Blow or Improved Bull Rush, isn't it?   AB is probably redundant with toss, but I could see IBR rather than Alertness.   Thoughts?


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

I say go with +8 natural armor and Imp. Bull Rush instead of Endurance. Alertness would be handy in thick forests, but resources are more common, meaning Endurance is less important.


----------



## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Good call.  I only picked Endurance 'cause all the other ones have it, but I like IBR better anyway.


----------



## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Updated.

CR 8?  (A woolly mammoth is CR 9, and since animals improve at the rate of 1 CR per 3 added HD, reversing would put it closer to CR-1 than CR-2)

Advancement:  11-20 HD (Huge); 21-28 HD (Gargantuan)?
Mammoths advance at 15-20 HD (Huge); 21-28 HD (Gargantuan), and I don't really see these advancing beyond the mammoth.

The current height and weight is that of a mammoth.  I'd imagine these weigh less, due to needing less fat and fur in its more hospitable clime.  Maybe 8 to 10 tons?


----------



## freyar (May 22, 2008)

All sounds about right to me.


----------



## RavinRay (May 23, 2008)

I think we've nailed this one. What I like about this is what for whatever environment you're in there's a proboscidean adapted to that with its own set of abilities that make it just that different enough from the others.


----------



## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Indeed!  Let's see where this one fits in...

*Ambelodon*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 12"//6"
HIT DICE: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 forefeet
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12/2-12
% IN LAIR: Nil (free roaming)
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

This was a member of the mastodon family. The lower jaws of these pachyderms were elongated into a scoop 6½' long, giving them the nickname of shovel-tusked mastodons. Ambelodon had a pair of short tusks (worth 100-300 gp each to adventurers). Since the proboscis was weak, the shovel clumsy, and the tusks badly placed for combat, Ambelodon lived attacked with only its front feet. Ambelodon lived in Miocene swamps and rivers, where vegetation was abundant. A very <missing text> Platybelodon, which had an even broader shovel jaw.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Here's the Wikipedia entry.  Note the different spelling.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Maybe start with the mastodon and remove the gore attacks.  I think we can leave the slam and trample to go with the stamps, though.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

OK, downsizing the mastodon to 9 HD and removing the gore attack yields...

Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 9d8+54 (94 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +8 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+25
Attack: Slam +15 melee (2d8+11)
Full Attack: Slam +15 melee (2d8+11) and 2 stamps +10 melee (2d6+5) 
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. 
Special Attacks: Trample 2d12+16
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +5
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 11, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 5
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (slam), Iron Will
Environment: Temperate swamps
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (3-6)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 10-27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 25. The save DC is Strength-based.


I dropped Improved Natural Attack (gore) and Toughness.

It looks like it had a swim speed which converts to 15 feet.  Do we want to stick with that, or simply give it a racial bonus on Swim checks?

Do we want to give them any special ability related to shoveling?


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

Give it a swim speed.  If I'm not mistaken, RW elephants swim decently, and a swim speed would distinguish it some.  Besides, if they did shovel water plants, they probably spent a lot of time in the water.

Not sure about shoveling.  Any of our prehistoric experts want to weigh in?


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## Echohawk (May 27, 2008)

Yes, real world elephants can definitely swim surprisingly well. (I live not very from an elephant sanctuary!)


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> Yes, real world elephants can definitely swim surprisingly well. (I live not very from an elephant sanctuary!)




Very cool!  That beats living near a zoo.  

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

CR 5 or 6?  Is this one done otherwise?


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Technically, it would be CR 7.  Since a mastodon is CR 9, and animals increase CR at a rate of +1/3 HD, reversing that gives us -2 CR (-6 HD).

I just noticed that a standard elephant has 11 HD.  Should we boost these guys since the smallest of them were supposed to be as big as an elephant?


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

Give 'em 10-11HD, and I'll go along with CR 7.   Without the gores, they certainly aren't any tougher than an elephant.


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## RavinRay (May 28, 2008)

Yep freyar, these are indeed shoveling animals. And despite their enlarged jaws, their bite force isn't really strong, so they can't, say inflict a vorpal bite, or even clamp down with Improved Grab. (As herbivores, they don't need too much force to eat mulch.  )


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Updated to 11 HD.

No vorpal bite, though.  

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2008)

A little dull, but yeah. Looks done.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Any suggestions on jazzing it up (short of a vorpal bite)?


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## freyar (May 29, 2008)

Vegetation Bite (Ex): The bite of an amebelodon ignores the first 10 points of hardness of any plant matter, including anything made of wood as well as plant creatures. 

If we want to give it a bite attack, that is.


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## RavinRay (May 29, 2008)

freyar I swear how did you come up with this?  Good one!


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## demiurge1138 (May 29, 2008)

I dunno. The bite's not got much force behind it--it's not eating trees, it's scooping up marsh plants. Not much you can do for an animal with a diet of sludge, except a bonus on Fortitude saves...


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

We could put a spin on the mammoth's toss ability like so...

Toss Muck (Ex):  As a standard action, an amebelodon can toss a tuskful of muck at a target within x feet.  This requires a ranged touch attack.  The target is blinded until it takes a move action to wipe off the muck.


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## GrayLinnorm (May 29, 2008)

You could also give it marsh move, like the swamplight lynx and marsh dragon.


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

Good suggestion!

Marsh Move (Ex): Amebelodons take no movement penalties for moving in marshes or mud.

Anyone disapprove?


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## demiurge1138 (May 29, 2008)

I approve of marsh move. The muck toss is interesting, but should only be usable in muddy or marshy terrain. Range of 20 feet? If we're going to use it at all. I could go either way.


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

Updated with marsh move.

20 feet and limited to muddy or marshy terrain for the muck toss sounds about right.  Like you, I can take it or leave it.  Anyone feel strongly either way?


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

The muck toss is pretty interesting, but I have no clue how realistic it might be, which I guess is the deciding factor for me.  Anybody?


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## Khisanth the Ancient (May 31, 2008)

I don't see anything unrealistic about it - modern elephants can do some pretty mischievous things.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2008)

Good point.  Revising...

Toss Muck (Ex): As a standard action, an amebelodon can toss a tuskful of muck at a target within 20 feet. This requires a ranged touch attack. The target is blinded until it takes a move action to wipe off the muck.  This ability may only be used in muddy or marshy terrain.

Look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 3, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2008)

Updated.  I think we're finished (again).


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2008)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

*Megalosaurus*
Climate/Terrain: Any land
Freq: Uncommon
Org: Solitary
Activity: Day
Diet: Carnivor
Int: Non- (0)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Nil
# App: 1-2
AC: 5
Movement: 12
HD: 12
THAC0: 9
# ATT: 3
Dmg/Att: 1-3/1-3/3-18
SA: Nil
SD: Nil
MR: Nil
Size: H (30' long)
Morale: Steady (11)

The megalosaurus is another carnosaur, like the allosaurus and tyrannosaurus, but is smaller--30 feet long, ten feet tall, and weighing only one ton.  While it is as able as its larger cousins of functioning bipedally, the megalosaurus often travels on all fours.

The megalosaurus eats sauropods, like the mamenchisaurus above, principally using its large jaws and teeth to bring down any unsuspecting vicitm.  The claws of the megalosaurus, while sharp, are capable of causing only incidental damage to such giants as diplodocus and brachiosaurus.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Three: Forgotten Realms Appendix (1989).


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

Here's the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalosaurus


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

I sent BOZ a conversion of lots of dinosaurs I'd done from the 1e MM and MM2 a long time ago... apparently, it's not around anymore. Here's what I did to the megalosaurus:

Megalosaurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+40 (85 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-2 size, +7 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+23
Attack: Bite +13 melee (2d8+8 plus lacerate)
Full Attack: Bite +13 melee (2d8+8 plus lacerate), 2 claws +11 melee (2d6+4)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, lacerate
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +5
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +13, Spot +12
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack, Run, Track
Environment: Warm and temperate forests and plains
Organization: Solitary, pair or pack (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge), 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: - 

This large bipedal creature is obviously a predator, as indicated with its knife-like teeth and powerful claws. Small studs of bone run in lines on either side of its back. 

Megalosaurs are savage predators that specialize in hunting sauropods and other massive dinosaurs.

A megalosaurus usually grows to 30 feet in length, and many weigh over two tons. They are usually pack hunters, specializing in sauropods, especially old, young, infirm or wounded ones. Lone megalosaurs are not unknown, however, but they feed mainly on iguanodons and similar species. 

Combat
Megalosaurs hunt not by speed or stealth but by sheer persistence. A pack will overwhelm a potential target, biting it multiple times with one or two grabbing hold to slow they prey down. After a few successful attacks, the pack retreats, waiting for their victim to bleed to death before moving in to feast.

Improved Grab (Ex): In order to use this ability, a megalosaurus must hit with a bite attack. If it hits, it can make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it deals automatic bite damage each round.

Lacerate (Ex): The bites of a megalosaurus leave deep, bleeding wounds. Any creature injured by a megalosaurus’ bite attack takes an additional 1 point of damage each round from the bleeding until the wound is bound (Heal check DC 15) or the target dies. This damage stacks from multiple attacks; for example, a creature bitten three times by a megalosaurus bleeds for 3 points of damage each round.

Skills: A megalosaurus receives a +2 racial bonus on all Listen and Spot checks.

The thinking on lacerate was the serrated teeth plus the need to take down sauropods, which are great chunks of hit points.

Now, however, I have learned that megalosaurids had shallow, long skulls, which were not conducive to very powerful bites. They also had leg proportions less equipped for running than, say, an allosaur. Their arms, however, were large and stoutly muscled. I might be willing to switch the claws and the bite as primary/secondary weapons, and switch Imp. Grab to the claws. May want to turn down the bite damage, although lacerate could be kept. And we may also wish to lower the speed even to 30ft.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Added to Homebrews, and reversed the claws and bite and lowered the bite damage as you suggested.

Other than that, I don't really see the need to change anything.

If you've still got that dino file, that might speed up the conversions of many of the remaining ones.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

Sure!

I'd also recommend changing the descriptive text; it's a wee bit embarrassing in retrospect. Perhaps:
_
This large bipedal reptile is obviously a predator, as indicated by its long jaws and knife-like teeth. Its arms are powerfully muscled and bear three claws. Small studs of bone run in lines on either side of its back._


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Fixed.

Any others in the file off the top of your head to finish off next?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

The document consists of:

Anatotitan
Anchisaurus
Apatosaurus
Archelon
Brachiosaurus
Camarasaurus
Camptosaurus
Ceratosaurus
Cetiosaurus
Coelophysis
Compsognathus (and swarm)
Dacentrus
Dilophosaurus
Dimetrodon
Dinichthys
Diplodocus
Euparkeria
Gorgosaurus
Kentrosaurus
Iguanodon
Lambeosaurus
Mamenchisaurus
Massospondylus
Megalosaurus
Monoclonius
Mosasaurus
Nothosaurus
Ornitholestes
Paleoscincus
Pentaceratops
Plateosaurus
Struthiomimus
Styracosaurus
Tanystropheus
Tennodontosaurus
Teratosaurus

I don't know what's been converted and what hasn't.


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## RavinRay (Jun 6, 2008)

Off the top of my head:
Archelon - Stormwrack
Brachiosaurus - Monster Manual II
Mosasaurus - Stormwrack

And for the classification, related animals:
*Dinosaurs
Prosauropods* - semi-bipedal long-necked herbivores
Anchisaurus
Plateosaurus

*Sauropods* - long-necked quadrupedal herbivores
Apatosaurus
Camarasaurus
Cetiosaurus
Diplodocus
Mamenchisaurus
Massospondylus

*Coelurosaurs* - small to medium-sized long necked carnivores
Coelophysis
Compsognathus (and swarm)
Dilophosaurus
Ornitholestes
Struthiomimus

*"Carnosaurs"* - large carnivores
Ceratosaurus
Gorgosaurus
Megalosaurus

*Ornithopods* - quadrupedal herbivores
Camptosaurus
Iguanodon
Temnodontosaurus

*Hadrosaurs* - "duck-billed" dinosaurs
Anatotitan
Lambeosaurus

*Ceratopsian* - frilled and horned dinosaurs
Monoclonius
Pentaceratops
Styracosaurus

*Stegosaurs* - back-plated tail-spiked dinosaurs
Dacentrus
Kentrosaurus

*Ankylosaurs* - armored and club-tailed dinosaurs
Paleoscincus

*Non-dinosaur archosaurs*
Teratosaurus
Euparkeria

*Others*
Nothosaurus - amphibious long-necked plesiosaur ancestor

Tanystropheus - amphibious long-necked reptile

Dimetrodon - fin-back carnivorous mammal-like reptile

Dinichthys - armored carnivorous fish (placodont)


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## Echohawk (Jun 6, 2008)

Based on a quick check...

Anatotitan - Creature Catalogue
Anchisaurus - Creature Catalogue
Apatosaurus - Creature Catalogue
Archelon - Stormwrack
Brachiosaurus - Not yet updated
Camarasaurus - Not yet updated
Camptosaurus - Not yet updated
Ceratosaurus - Serpent Kingdoms
Cetiosaurus - Not yet updated
Coelophysis - Not yet updated (is this the same thing as a Coelurosaur?)
Compsognathus (and swarm) - Dragon #318
Dacentrus - Not yet updated
Dilophosaurus - Not yet updated
Dimetrodon - Dragon #318
Dinichthys - Not yet updated
Diplodocus - Dragon #318
Euparkeria - Not yet updated
Gorgosaurus - Creature Catalogue
Kentrosaurus - Not yet updated
Iguanodon - Not yet updated
Lambeosaurus - Not yet updated
Mamenchisaurus - Not yet updated
Massospondylus - Not yet updated
Megalosaurus - Not yet updated
Monoclonius - Not yet updated
Mosasaurus - Stormwrack
Nothosaurus - Vaults of Pandius
Ornitholestes - Creature Catalogue
Paleoscincus - Not yet updated (is this the same thing as a Paleocinthus?)
Pentaceratops - Creature Catalogue
Plateosaurus - Not yet updated
Struthiomimus - Not yet updated
Styracosaurus - Not yet updated
Tanystropheus - Not yet updated
Tennodontosaurus - Not yet updated
Teratosaurus - Not yet updated


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## Echohawk (Jun 6, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Off the top of my head:
> Brachiosaurus - Monster Manual II



Is this in the MMII under another name? I don't see it there.


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## RavinRay (Jun 6, 2008)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> Is this in the MMII under another name? I don't see it there.



You're right. I remember the picture but it was a _Seismosaurus_. It was drawn with the neck more vertical than horizontal because _Brachiosaurus_ could orient it that way.

"Coelurosaur" is a general name for the small to medium-sized theropods (bipedal carnivorous dinosaurs). _Paleocinthus_ does appear synonymous with _Paleoscincus_.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 7, 2008)

RavinRay, what do you think of our handling of Megalosaurus?


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## RavinRay (Jun 7, 2008)

I was scanning the lacerate ability and you comment about the skull biomechanics. Carnosaur evolution generally led to more powerful bites and weaker arms, as typified by the famous _T. rex_. A megalosaur may not have a bone crushing bite, but it could have raked its serrated teeth to create long wounds that bleed profusely. This was, in fact, the attack tactic famed paleontologist Dr. Bob Bakker wrote for several predators.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2008)

Let's just go alphabetically down the unconverted list, starting with Brachiosaurus.

Do you see any reason to post the original stats?  It seems like we generally rely on more recent material and retain none of the original information.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 9, 2008)

Brachiosaurus
Colossal Animal
Hit Dice: 28d8+270 (396 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 15ft (3 squares)
Armor Class: 10 (-8 size, -2 Dex, +10 natural), touch 0, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+52
Attack: Claw +28 melee (4d6+15)
Full Attack: 2 claws +28 melee (4d6+15)
Space/Reach: 50ft/40ft
Special Attacks: Trample 10d8+22
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +27, Ref +14, Will +13
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 7, Con 29, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 12
Skills: Listen +15, Spot +27
Feats: Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Spot), Toughness (x3)
Environment: Warm and temperate forests and hills
Organization: Solitary, pair or pod (5-20)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 29-84 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: -

This incredibly tall quadruped has a huge, almost erect neck, a short tail, a very broad chest, thin legs and a short head with a flat snout and a high crest.

Although the seismosaurus might be longer and heavier, the brachiosaurus is the tallest of all the dinosaurs.

Brachiosaurs are almost 90 feet long and nearly 50 feet tall. They are slow and clumsy by even the standards of the sauropods, but their long legs and neck allow it to reach the tallest branches. They are herd organisms, and because of their size have no natural enemies.

Combat
A brachiosaurus is most likely to use its front claws for uprooting trees, but when attacked by something large enough to concern it (usually a rival brachiosaur), it can use them to deadly effect. Against most dangers, it simply walks over them.

Trample (Ex): A brachiosaurus can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Gargantuan or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 39 half) or take 10d8+22 damage. The save DC is Strength based.

May want to replace the claws with stamps (that also do slashing damage). May want to make it faster. May want to boost its natural AC.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2008)

Here's the Wikipedia entry for those playing at home:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachiosaurus

Agreed to boosting speed and probably natural armor.  I'm assuming you based the original speed off seismosaurus.  I find it hard to imagine something with a gait that large only moving 20 feet.  Hell, it's strides should be larger than that!   Increase to 40 ft.?

I also agree with stamps instead of claws (but we can retain half-slashing damage).

Shouldn't it have 10 feats?   I'm thinking we can drop the Toughness feats and replace with Epic Toughness (since it qualifies for 3 epic feats).  Thoughts?

I wonder if we should go for a Colossal+ advancement to allow for Sauroposeidon...


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 10, 2008)

Epic Toughness makes good sense to me.

And yes, I was working within the constraints of the MM-published dinosaurs. Probably not a good idea.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

It looks like it gets one more non-epic feat.  Any suggestions?

Should I just list in tactics that its stamps deal half slashing damage, or should that be an Ex ability?

How high shall we go with natural armor?

Any thoughts on going for a Colossal+ advancement to allow for Sauroposeidon?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 10, 2008)

I like the idea of Colossal +. 

For the last non-epic feat, I'm not sure. These guys are really big sacks of hit points. We could give it ordinary Toughness in addition to Epic Toughness, but that feels a little weak. Improved Critical (stamp)? Improved Initiative?

As for its Epic feats, I like the idea of Damage Reduction. Twice.

The slashing on stamps is a non-ability, really. I'd put in a mention of it before the combat section, like "the stamps of a brachiosaurus are considered to be bludgeoning and slashing weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction".


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## RavinRay (Jun 11, 2008)

What kind of DR/ did you have in mind? Its hide may have been thick enough and nodules to resist piercing and slashing damage. I like the Colossal+ size and Epic feats.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2008)

The Damage Reduction feat gives the creature DR 3/- and stacks with itself, which fits nicely with a creature so large that it can literally ignore attacks from smaller enemies.

Which reminds me--I feel as if next ankylosaur we convert should get DR /- as a baseline.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2008)

Updated.

Anything else?  If not, lets move on to Camarasaurus.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 12, 2008)

Let's boost the natural armor to +15, then I think we're done.


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## Shade (Jun 12, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Bring on Camarasaurus.   

Here's his Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camarasaurus


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 12, 2008)

Camarasaurus
Colossal Animal
Hit Dice: 18d8+129 (210 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 10 (-8 size, -1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 1, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+39
Attack: Tail slam +15 melee (3d6+15)
Full Attack: Tail slam +15 melee (3d6+15)
Space/Reach: 40ft/30ft
Special Attacks: Trample 6d6+15
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +10, Will +10
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 9, Con 24, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +15
Feats: Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Toughness
Environment: Warm forests, hills and plains
Organization: Solitary, pair or pod (6-36)
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 19-54 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: -

This massive quadruped has a short box-like head atop a long neck, a stout but powerful tail and an elephantine hide.

The camarasaurs are one of the smaller and weaker types of sauropod.

Camarasaurs, while large (around 60 feet long and 20 tons), are dwarfed by most other sauropods, and they are small enough to be targeted by allosaur packs and other carnivorous dinosaurs. As such, they live and travel in large herds for protection. Their nearly horizontal backs and short necks allow them to browse short trees and saplings.

Combat
When attacked, camarasaurs are capable of using their powerful tails in defense, but are just as likely to run away.    

Trample (Ex): A camarasaurus can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Gargantuan or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 29 half) or take 6d6+15 damage. The save DC is Strength based.

The Wikipedia article makes me think we should replace the tail slap with clawing slams, like Brachiosaurus.


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## Shade (Jun 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Do we need to tone down the stamp damage?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2008)

Scaling an elephant up to Colossal nets us a base stamp damage of 4d6, actually.


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2008)

That's what we gave the brachiasaurus...but if you're OK with them being the same, I'm fine with it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2008)

Alternatively, we could go back and boost the brachiosaur's. In retrospect, between that and the epic feats, I'm starting to wonder if we pegged the CR a little low...


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

Wow, this has been a busy thread!  I think boosting the brachiosaurus and bumping the CR is probably a decent idea, too.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Boost brach to 5d6 damage and CR 12-13?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2008)

I'd boost brach damage to 5d8 or 6d6. CR 12 sounds right, still. It's one of those weird D&D creatures that is absolutely lethal or a total pushover, depending on the circumstances of the encounter (I'm looking at you, remorhaz).


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Let's go 5d8 to break the mold a bit.

Updated both sauropods:

Brachiosaurus

Camarasaurus


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Both look pretty good as far as I see.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Demiurge, if you're happy with the results, lets move on to the rest of the unconverted sauropods (Cetiosaurus, Mamenchisaurus, Massospondylus).

Also, it might be worth looking at your version of Apatosaurus to the one currently in the CC to see if any modifications are needed.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

The CC version of the apatosaurus was based on mine, so no worries.

Cetiosaurus
Gargantuan Animal
Hit Dice: 15d8+78 (145 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 12 (-4 size, +6 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+30
Attack: Tail slam +14 melee (2d8+10)
Full Attack: Tail slam +14 melee (2d8+10)
Space/Reach: 20ft/20ft
Special Attacks: Trample
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +9, Will +9
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +13
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Toughness
Environment: Warm plains and forest (islands)
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 16-30 HD (Gargantuan), 31-45 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: -

This massive quadruped has a powerful tail, a long neck, and a sloping back.

Cetiosaurs are a species of primitive sauropods that live on beaches and islands.

A cetiosaurus is about 50 feet long, small for a sauropod. They are beachcombers, and their small size might be indicative of a less nourishing diet or reduced risk of predation. They live solitary lives, and most only see other cetiosaurs to mate. 

Combat
Cetiosaurs use their tails if threatened like their larger kin, and like them can merely crush smaller creatures in their path.

Trample (Ex): A cetiosaurus can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Huge or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 24 half) or take 4d8+10 damage. The save DC is Strength based.


Again, I might boost the natural armor class. Maybe a racial bonus on Swim checks for the coastal environment.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Let's make both those modifications.  The AC really needs to be a lot higher, even at CR 7, I think.  +10 natural armor?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Added to Homebrews with those modifications.

Unless my math is off, it looks like it gets one more feat.

"It is estimated to have been about 53 feet (15-16 m) long and to have weighed roughly 24800 kg"

This equates to about 55,000 pounds.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Well, we could go with Lightning Reflexes. Or Power Attack, though that's not quite so logical.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

I like the idea of Lightning Reflexes.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2008)

Updated.

On to the next one?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

Mamenchisaurus? 

Mamenchisaurus
Hit Dice: 22d8+157 (253 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 12 (-8 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 3, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+42
Attack: Tail slam +18 melee (4d6+15 plus thunderous snap)
Full Attack: Tail slam +18 melee (4d6+15 plus thunderous snap)
Space/Reach: 50ft/40ft
Special Attacks: Thunderous snap, trample 8d8+15
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +14, Will +11
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 12, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +21
Feats: Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness (x2)
Environment: Warm forests, plains and hills
Organization: Solitary, pair or herd (10-24) 
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 23-66 HD (Colossal)
Level Advancement: -

This massive quadruped has a long tail, a box-like head attached to a disproportionately long neck, and a wrinkled, elephantine hide.

Although mamenchisaurs are not the longest, heaviest or otherwise record-setting dimensionally of the massive sauropods, they do have the longest necks of their family.

The neck of a mamenchisaurus takes up almost 40 feet of its 70 foot length and is held at a slightly erect angle. Due to the massive pressures needed to pump blood up to its head, multiple heart-like structures are positioned along its neck. Mamenchisaurs are at a significant advantage when it comes to a wide field of vision and a selection of food from the tallest of trees, but their lives are among the shortest of the sauropods (only seventy-five years at a maximum, barring a violent end) due to their fragile hearts.

Combat
Although they are more closely related to camarasaurs and brachiosaurs than diplodocids, they bear the latter’s whip-like tail, complete with its sonic consequences. More often then not, however, they merely trod on any threat to their safety.

Thunderous Snap (Ex): Although they are ponderous, a mamenchisaurus’ whip-like tail can move faster than sound. Any creature struck by a mamenchisaurus’ tail slam must make a Fortitude save (DC 28) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds and deafened for 1d4 minutes. On a successful save, the creature is merely deafened for 1d4 minutes. The save DC is Constitution based.

Trample (Ex): A mamenchisaurus can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Gargantuan or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 31 half) or take 8d8+15 damage. The save DC is Strength based.

Perhaps we should get rid of Toughness x2. Since it qualifies for one epic feat... Epic Toughness?


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews with Epic Toughness.  Replace the other Toughness feat with Lightning Reflexes?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

Sure!


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

Updated.

I think we're ready for the Massospondylus.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

Looks good, I agree!


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 19, 2008)

Massospondylus
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (37 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d8+4), bite +5 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft (10ft with bite)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +2 
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack
Environment: Warm deserts and plains
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6-10 HD (Large), 11-15 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This quadruped is about the size of a horse, but with a long tail and neck. Its head is broad with peg-like teeth, and its forelimbs are tipped with large claws.

Massospondyluses are a type of prosauropod, a primitive relative of such mighty animals as the brachiosaurus and seismosaurus.

The massospondylus ranges in length from 10 to 15 feet long. They live in dry areas and eat predominately plants, but are omnivorous and not adverse to occasionally catching and killing their food. They are territorial, and rarely see each other unless to mate or fight.

Combat
When threatened or hungry, a massospondylus rears onto its back legs and fights with its teeth and claws. They rarely attack anything of human size, however, unless starved or in defense.

Sort of boring. Anything we can do to spice it up?


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

These are about the only interesting facts I could find about it:

"A 2007 study suggested that Massospondylus may have used its short arms in defense from predators ("defensive swats"), in intraspecies combat, or in feeding, although its arms were too short to reach its mouth. Scientists speculate that Massospondylus could have used its large pollex (thumb) claw in combat or to strip plant material from trees."

"Although long assumed to have been quadrupedal, a 2007 anatomical study of the forelimbs has questioned this, arguing that their range of motion precluded effective habitual quadrupedal gait. The study also ruled out the possibility of "knuckle-walking" and other forms of locomotion that would avoid the issue of the limited ability of Massospondylus to pronate its hands. Although its mass suggests a quadrupedal nature, it would have been restricted to its hind legs for locomotion."

"Notably, the near-hatchlings had no teeth, suggesting they had no way of feeding themselves. Based on the lack of teeth and the animal's body proportions, scientists speculate that postnatal care might have been necessary. The four legs of the near-hatchlings were of equal length, indicating that newly hatched Massospondylus were quadrupedal."


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

Probably not a lot to work with there...


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## Cat Moon (Jun 20, 2008)

Now, here's a thread I'm gonna get a lot of use out of. I'll be compiling these baddies into a word document as  I get the time. Many thanks.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2008)

I say we downsize the bite to 1d4. Keeping the claws at d8 I'm okay with. We can mention something in the flavor text about them being good parents, and about how that's how they would come into conflict with adventurers.

They were native to desert climes. Is there anything we can do with that?


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Cat Moon said:
			
		

> Now, here's a thread I'm gonna get a lot of use out of. I'll be compiling these baddies into a word document as  I get the time. Many thanks.




Great!  Feel free to chime in if you have any suggestions.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Downsizing bite seems fine.

Could give them Endurance as a bonus feat or a temperature acclimatization special ability...


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I say we downsize the bite to 1d4. Keeping the claws at d8 I'm okay with. We can mention something in the flavor text about them being good parents, and about how that's how they would come into conflict with adventurers.




Added to Homebrews  with those suggestions.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> They were native to desert climes. Is there anything we can do with that?




Heat tolerance?

Survive without water for longer periods?

Something like this?

Sure Feet (Ex): Dromedary camels have broad feet that help them travel easily over sand and similar loose surfaces. They treat shallow sand as normal terrain and deep sand as shallow sand. See Sand Travel, page 18 of Sandstorm, for descriptions of shallow and deep sand.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Let's do all three...


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 21, 2008)

I don't know about the sand feet (we have ichnofossils of related species, and they're not especially broad), but heat tolerance and a bonus on saves vs. starvation and thirst I'd be all for.


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## Cat Moon (Jun 21, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Great!  Feel free to chime in if you have any suggestions.



Will do.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 21, 2008)

Rather off topic, but Cat Moon, have you seen my World of Kong project over in Homebrews? Here. It sounds as if it'd be relevant to your interests.


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## RavinRay (Jun 22, 2008)

_Massospondylus_ breaks the mold for sauropods. In fact, with its modest size and only partly-quadrupedal habits, it hearkens to its prosauropod forebears.

It should be able to rear on its hind legs and tail in a tripodal stance, giving it a chance to strike with its foreclaws. If you saw _Diplodocus_ defend itself against _Allosaurus_ in _Walking With Dinosaurs_ that's exactly how it behaved. And anyone who's been to the American Museum of Natural History in New York (as I was ten years ago—a dream visit for me) wouldn't fail to be impresses with the adult _Barosaurus_ skeleton mounted in a tripodal stance defending its juvenile against an _Allosaurus_.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2008)

How's this?

Arid Adaptation (Ex): A massospondylus does not need to make Fortitude saves to avoid taking nonlethal damage in conditions between 90 degrees and 110 degrees. In conditions of severe heat (above 110 degrees) it must make Fortitude saves like any other creature, but gains a +4 racial bonus on this save.  (see Heat Dangers in the DMG).

Additionally, a massospondylus needs to drink only one-quarter the normal amount of water per day require for a creature of its size.


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2008)

Updated.

Anything else?


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2008)

It looks done from here.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Demiurge, if you're happy with it, bring on Camptosaurus.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 29, 2008)

Shade said:


> Demiurge, if you're happy with it, bring on Camptosaurus.




Can do!

Camptosaurus
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+9
Attack: Thumb-spike +5 melee (1d3+3)
Full Attack: 2 thumb-spikes +5 melee (1d3+3)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Stampede
Special Qualities: Keen scent, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +0
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 9, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: Alertness, Run
Environment: Warm and temperate forests and hills
Organization: Pair or herd (6-36)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

This thin bipedal creature has a long tail, and S-shaped neck attached to a long head with a beak, and small spikes on its thumbs. 

Camptosaurs are particularly stupid and skittish herbivorous dinosaurs.

A camptosaurus is usually around 20 feet long, with about a third of that being tail. They are brightly colored, with stripes and wattles being used by the males to attract mates. This, combined with their dull minds, might have led them to extinction if not for two things- they are quite fast, and their sense of smell is incredibly acute. They have been known to live in herds amongst brachiosaurs or camarasaurs: the sauropod’s long necks and keen eyes and the camptosaur’s sensitive noses compliment one another and keep the herds aware of most dangers.

Combat
Camptosaurs always flee from combat, but they will use their thumb-spikes if cornered or knocked down.

Keen Scent (Ex): A camptosaurus can detect creature through scent up to 60 feet away.

Stampede (Ex): A frightened herd of camptosaurs flees as a group from a perceived danger, literally running over creatures in their path. Large or smaller creatures caught in a camptosaur stampede take 1d12 points of damage for every five camptosaurs in the herd (Reflex DC 14 halves). The save DC is Strength based.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2008)

Hmm, should we add the normal Scent to the Keen Scent?  Not much else to do unless we really want to get creative.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 29, 2008)

Yeah, Camptosaurus is sort of a boring baseline herbivore. Actually, they didn't even have thumb spikes like their larger iguanadont relatives--we should change their attack line (to a tail slap?)


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Switching to tail slap is fine for me.  Maybe bump the damage to 1d4 since it now only gets one?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 30, 2008)

Agreed. Alternatively, we can give it damage of 1d6, and make it a secondary natural attack (as some herbivorous animals have in the Monster Manual).


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

I think I like that even better.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

I'll Homebrew 'em that way as soon as work slows down.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I didn't see anything else of interest on Wikipedia.

Is this one done?


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Good enough for me!


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

If Demiurge agrees, we can move on to the Iguanodon.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2008)

Yeah, let's move on.

Iguanodon
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 12 (-2 size, +4 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+19
Attack: Thumb-spike +9 melee (2d6+7)
Full Attack: 2 thumb-spikes +9 melee (2d6+7)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Trample 2d8+10
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +3 
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Run
Environment: Warm forests and plains
Organization: Herd (3-18)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Huge), 13-18 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This large creature is a quadruped, but looks capable of walking on its hind legs. Its head is large, broad and beaked, and its tail is tall and straight. Most noticeable are its hands, with their prehensile fifth finger, mitten like middle fingers and a thumb with a massive spike on the nail.

The iguanodon is an adaptable and common herbivorous dinosaur.

Most iguanodons are around 30 feet in length, although they do get bigger. They live in herds and are extraordinarily fecund for a creature of its size- one female can have as many as 10 young in one brood, and the young are sexually mature by age 3. This is fortunate for the species, as many predators attack them.

Combat
Iguanodons are not aggressive, but are more than capable of using their thumb-spikes to defend themselves. If badly injured, they flee, often over their opponent.

Trample (Ex): An iguanodon can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Large or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 20 half) or take 2d8+10 damage. The save DC is Strength based.


Looking back on it, I want to boost the natural armor a bit. Maybe replace Great Fortitude with Iron Will. Wikipedia suggests that it may not have been a herding species--do we want to keep the stuff about herds and being very fecund?


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

Agreed to increasing natural armor, swapping GF/IW.  I can go either way on the herding/fecundity.

"The best-known species, I. bernissartensis, is estimated to have weighed about 3.08 tonnes (3.5 tons) on average"

That gives us an average weight to work in.

What to make of this?

"The legs were powerful, but not built for running, and there were three toes on each foot."

"The maximum speed of Iguanodon has been estimated at 24 km/h (14.9 mph),[71] which would have been as a biped; it would not have been able to gallop as a quadruped.[1]"


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2008)

I say increase speed to 40 feet. I think we don't need to do anything special with the switch between bipedal and quadrupedal stances--after all, it can't make any attacks if it uses the run action anyway.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggested natural armor boost?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2008)

Elephants have +7. Let's give them +8.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Updated.   

Anything else, or is it time for Tennodontosaurus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2008)

Personally, I think we're done.

The actual name of the creature is "temnodontosaurus". I have changed the spelling accordingly.

Temnodontosaurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+40 (90 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 60ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+21
Attack: Bite +11 melee (4d4+9)
Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (4d4+9)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +6 
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 9
Skills: Listen +9, Spot +21, Swim +15
Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair or pod (5-20)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge), 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This massive beast resembles a reptilian porpoise, only on a grander scale. Its long beak is lined with sharp conical teeth, and its four fins are well-muscled .Most notable are its eyes, which are the size of dinner plates. 

Temnodontosaurus is among the largest of the icthyosaurs, a family of fish-like reptiles.

The average temnodontosaurus is 30 feet long. They are fast and intelligent creatures, with a well-developed social system. They have remarkably keen eyesight due to the size of the eye- proportionately, the largest in the animal kingdom. Temnodontosaurs, like all icthyosaurs, never leave the water; unlike other aquatic reptiles, icthyosaurs give birth to their offspring alive. Temnodontosaurs feed on fish, squid and ammonites, and are harmless to humanoids, despite their size and strength, unless they are attacked first.

Combat
Temnodontosaurs are mobile opponents, darting in and out of their foes reach in order to deliver sharp, powerful bites.

Hold Breath (Ex): A temnodontosaurus can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 6x its Constitution score.

Skills: A temnodontosaurus receives a +8 racial bonus to all Spot checks.

A temnodontosaurus has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I can't think of anything to add or change.


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

Nope, me either.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

If Demiurge agrees, then I suggest we move on to Paleoscincus.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 3, 2008)

Paleoscincus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 9d8+78 (118 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 20ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +16 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+21
Attack: Tail slam +11 melee (2d6+10)
Full Attack: Tail slam +11 melee (2d6+10)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, spiny defense
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +4, Will +3
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 7, Con 26, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Toughness (x2)
Environment: Warm plains and hills
Organization: Solitary or battalion (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 10-18 HD (Huge), 19-27 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This wide creature is covered with a variety of bony plates, scutes, nodes and spikes. Its narrow, beaked head is likewise protected, and its side is studded with wide spines running the length of its body and down to its tail.

Paleoscincus is a type of ankylosaur- a family of ornithischians marked by heavy body armor.

A paleoscincus is about 20 feet long and nearly 6 feet wide, and has a formidable line of defense in the form of spines, plates and other bony protrusions. This is fortunate, as they are also slow and stupid. They are inoffensive creatures unless provoked, in which case they become very dangerous.

Combat
If attacked, paleoscincuses turn their bodies so to keep a wall of spines and armored nodes between their attacker and their soft flesh, while making sweeping attacks with their spine-lined tails. Most predators give up after a few passes of failed attacks and bloody wounds to the mouth.

Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature that hits a paleoscincus in melee with a natural or handheld weapon (but not a reach weapon) takes 3d4+7 points of damage from its many spines.

I think we should give it some DR. Say, 2 or 3/-. Also, we should get rid of the bloody Toughness feats and give it something useful. Iron Will?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

At this CR, I think it'd even be ok to give it DR 5/-.

Iron Will and maybe Weapon Focus (tail slam)?


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews with the suggested changes.

Anything else, or are we ready for Dacentrus?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

I'm happy with it if demiurge is.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 3, 2008)

Oh so happy I am.

Dacentrus
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+14
Attack: Tail spike +9 melee (2d6+9, 19-20 x3)
Full Attack: Tail spike +9 melee (2d6+9, 19-20 x3)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Augmented critical
Special Qualities: Fortification, low-light vision, scent, spiny defense
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 11, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +9, Spot +9
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Run 
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary, pair or herd (4-7)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Large), 13-18 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This strange quadruped has a horizontal body with small bony plates on its back up to its hind legs. From this point leading down to the tail, it has long, sharp spikes. Its head is small and horse-like, and its pebbly skin is marked with stripes.

Dacentrus is one of the more primitive stegosaurs, whose descendants include stegosaurus and kentrosaurus.

A dacentrus is about 15 feet long and weighs up to three tons. They are docile herbivores, browsing through jungles and scrub forests in small herds. If provoked, however, they are deadly, lashing out with their spiked tails.

Combat
If threatened, a dacentrus will assume a defensive position, always keeping its tail facing its enemies. If badly outnumbered or surrounded, it flees, as it is both weaker and faster than its larger kin.

Augmented Critical (Ex): The spikes on the tail of a dacentrus are keen and as sharp as picks. They threaten a critical hit on a 19-20 and deal x3 damage on a successful critical hit.

Fortification (Ex): The bony plates on the neck and shoulders of a dacentrus help to protect its spine from injury. Any critical hit or sneak attack made against the dacentrus has a 10% chance of failing, dealing only normal damage.

Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature that hits a dacentrus in melee with a handheld or natural weapon (but not a reach weapon) takes 1d6+6 points of damage from the creature’s broad spines.

I have no idea what I was thinking when I gave this Run. No idea... Perhaps Weapon Focus (tail)?


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews with WF (tail spike).

Should the current correct name be Dacentrurus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2008)

Looks like it. 

...should we increase its size to Huge? It sounds like that's most appropriate, what with the "largest of the stegosaurs".


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Oh so happy I am.






> I have no idea what I was thinking when I gave this Run. No idea... Perhaps Weapon Focus (tail)?



Probably you didn't want to give it Toughness. 




demiurge1138 said:


> Looks like it.
> 
> ...should we increase its size to Huge? It sounds like that's most appropriate, what with the "largest of the stegosaurs".




I'm for bumping to Huge and think we should probably add a few (3-4) HD while we're at it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2008)

Huge and 9 HD, I'm happy with.


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

Advancing...

Dacentrurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 9d8+54 (94 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-2 size, -1 Dex, +10 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+24
Attack: Tail spike +17 melee (3d6+15, 19-20 x3)
Full Attack: Tail spike +17 melee (3d6+15, 19-20 x3)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Augmented critical
Special Qualities: Fortification, low-light vision, scent, spiny defense
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +5, Will +6
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 9, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +9, Spot +9
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (tail spike), Iron Will
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary, pair or herd (4-7)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 10-18 HD (Huge), 19-27 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

Does that look right?  I'm particularly bothered by the skills, as I don't understand how you got +9 to Listen and Spot with only 9 ranks in the 6HD version (was it 3e?).  Does CR 7 seem fair?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 5, 2008)

It was definately 3.5, but I have no idea how I got 9 ranks. 

Oh, be sure to change the size categories in the advancement.


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> It was definately 3.5, but I have no idea how I got 9 ranks.
> 
> Oh, be sure to change the size categories in the advancement.



Ooops, edited to change the sizes...


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Updated.

Anything left?  If not, lets proceed to Kentrosaurus.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

Kentrosaurus
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 9d8+39 (79 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+17
Attack: Tail spike +12 melee (2d6+10, 19-20 x3)
Full Attack: Tail spike +12 melee (2d6+10, 19-20 x3)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, reflexive attack 
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, spiny defense
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 9, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +10, Spot +11
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Run, Toughness 
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary, pair or herd (4-7)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Large), 13-18 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This strange quadruped has a horizontal body with long sharp spikes running along its back. A large spike just from each of its shoulders and four tip its tail. Its head is small and horse-like, and its pebbly skin is marked with stripes.

The kentrosaurus is a stegosaur, one of a family of unusual herbivores with powerful and sharp defenses

A kentrosaurus is about 15 feet long and weighs up to three tons, the same size as its relative dacentrus. They are docile herbivores, browsing through jungles and scrub forests in small herds. If provoked, however, they are deadly, lashing out with their spiked tails and shoulder spines.

Combat
If threatened, a kentrosaurus will assume a defensive position, always keeping its tail facing its enemies. If their offspring are threatened, the adults of a herd will form a protective circle around their young, tails out. 

Augmented Critical (Ex): The spikes on the tail of a kentrosaurus are keen and as sharp as picks. They threaten a critical hit on a 19-20 and deal x3 damage on a successful critical hit.

Reflexive Attack (Ex): Once per round, a kentrosaurus may make an immediate melee attack with its shoulder spine against any creature that damages it in melee. Attack bonus +7, damage 1d8+3. 

Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature that hits a kentrosaurus in melee using a handheld or natural weapon (but not a reach weapon) take 1d6+7 points of damage from the creature’s broad spines.

I would probably add a Reflex save to the kentrosaurus' spiny defense. Come to think of it, there should be one on the Dacenturus as well.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I would probably add a Reflex save to the kentrosaurus' spiny defense. Come to think of it, there should be one on the Dacenturus as well.




Good call.  Str-based?

As an aside, while I realize it is just flavor text, if the dacentrurus and kento's tails are as sharp as a pick, why not x4 on the augmented critical?

Added Kentrosaurus to Homebrews.  Wanna replace Toughness with Weapon Focus (tail) again?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

x4 criticals would be fine by me.

I actually think the spiny defense DC should be Dex based, as it's about the animal maneuvering its spines to be in the way of opposing attacks. The DC would, indeed, be low. So let's replace Toughness with Ability Focus (spiny defense)?


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Agreed.  Would you like me to go back to dacentrurus and replace WF with Ability Focus, too?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

No, that's alright. Dacenturus wasn't as spiky.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for Monoclonius?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

Sure!

Monoclonius
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (76 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+16
Attack: Gore +12 melee (2d6+10)
Full Attack: Gore +12 melee (2d6+10)
Face/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Powerful charge, trample 2d6+10 
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +6  
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 15, Cha 5
Skills: Listen +10, Spot +9
Feats: Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (gore), Iron Will
Environment: Temperate and warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pair or herd (3-12)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Large), 17-24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This creature resembles nothing so much as a reptilian rhinoceros, although no rhinoceros had a massive bony frill on the back of its head or a horn quite so long or sharp.

The monoclonius is a species of ceratopsian, the most famous of which is the triceratops.

Most monoclonius are around 15 feet long and very strong, but the species are inoffensive and herbivorous. Most monoclonius live in family units with an alpha male and multiple females, as well as the alpha’s various offspring. Unlike triceratops, they are not particularly territorial or aggressive.

Combat
If they or their offspring are threatened, a herd of monoclonius will charge the offending predator, impaling it on their powerful horns. They usually retreat if a fight goes badly, but a mother monoclonius will defend her child to the death.

Powerful Charge (Ex): When a monoclonius charges, its gore attack deals 4d6+14 points of damage.

Trample (Ex): A monoclonius can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Medium or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 21 half) or take 2d6+10 damage. The save DC is Strength based.

Hm. I hate giving base creatures Improved Natural Attack, but I did to model the triceratops in the MM. I could easily see dropping it in exchange for another feat, but keeping the gore damage the same.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I'm fine with dropping Imp Nat Atk in favor of something else.  Weapon Focus, maybe?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

Weapon Focus seems eminately reasonable.


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## RavinRay (Jul 9, 2008)

Weapon Focus (gore) seems best to me.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Updated.

Look good?   Ready for Styracosaurus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2008)

Styracosaurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+63 (108 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +8 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+23
Full Attack: Gore +13 melee (2d6+12)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Powerful charge, reflexive attack, trample 2d8+12
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +7, Will +7  
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 11, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 9
Skills: Listen +11, Spot +10 
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Toughness
Environment: Warm hills and plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-8)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge), 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This massive creature has a bony frill with long spikes growing from it, and a long horn growing from its beaked snout.

The styracosaurus is a ceratopsian whose decorative frill has become a defensive weapon.

A styracosaurus is about 20 feet long and, like most ceratopsians, very aggressive. They will charge at any unfamiliar creature in their territory and are relentless in their assaults. They live in small herds and feed on bushes and tubers. 

Combat
A styracosaurus initiates combat by charging its opponent, and uses its spiked frill to deter opponents from fighting back. 

Powerful Charge (Ex): On a charge attack, a styracosaur’s gore attack deals 4d6+16 points of damage.  

Reflexive Attack (Ex): Once per round, a styracosaurus may make an immediate melee attack with its frill against any creature that strikes it in melee. Attack bonus +8, 1d8+8 damage.

Trample (Ex): A styracosaurus can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Large or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 23 half) or take 2d8+12 damage. The save DC is Strength based.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Replace Toughness with Weapon Focus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2008)

Sure!


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for Plateosaurus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2008)

Plateosaurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (76 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (-2 size, +6 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+20
Attack: Claw +10 melee (2d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (2d6+6), tail slam +8 melee (2d8+3)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Trample 2d12+9
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +9
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Multiattack
Environment: Warm deserts and forests
Organization: Solitary, pair or herd (5-20)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Huge), 17-24 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This creature is about the size of an elephant, with a powerful tail, a long neck, and broad claws on its front legs.

Plateosaurs are one of the largest and most advanced forms of prosauropods, the primitive cousins of such giants as the seismosaurus.

A plateosaurus is about 30 feet long, although specimens as long as 40 feet have been reported. They live in large herds, browsing on low-lying vegetation. They can and do rear up on their hind legs in order to reach tall branches, and in order to defend themselves.

Combat
A plateosaurus will usually try to trample its opponent before staying to fight, but if cornered or surrounded rears up on its hind legs and fights with its claws and powerful tail.

Trample (Ex): A plateosaurus can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Large or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 20 half) or take 2d12+9 damage. The save DC is Strength based.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I don't see anything that needs changing.  I think we can probably move on Coelophysis.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2008)

Coelophysis
Medium-sized Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 60ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+1) and 2 claws +0 melee (1d3)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +1
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +9, Listen +6, Move Silently +9, Spot +6, Survival +6
Feats: Track (B), Weapon Finesse
Environment: Warm deserts and plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, pack (4-7) or horde (10-100)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-6 HD (Medium-sized)
Level Adjustment: -

This slender biped has a long snout with jagged teeth, small clawed arms, a long tail and a small crest of feathers on the back of its head.

Coelophysis, also known as pokedesaurus, is a smaller carnivorous dinosaur, roughly equivalent to a reptilian wolf.

These creatures are usually 10 feet long, with almost half of that length being tail. They usually live in small packs, with solitary individuals usually being outcasts or young males seeking a mate. Sometimes, though, many packs will merge into an unstoppable horde of creatures, which eat anything in their path, including each other. After a few months of ravaging the wilderness, the horde disperses, sometimes because of some calamity killing all of its members, but sometimes with no loss of life to any of the coelophysises. Sages are still unsure of why this happens, as there is no obvious environmental trigger.

Combat
Coelophysises attack prey from ambush, knocking it down and nipping at its prone form. They shy away from any prey larger than themselves, and will not attack humans unless starved (or in a horde).

Trip (Ex): A coelophysis that hits with a bite attack may immediately make a trip attempt (+1 check modifier) as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the coelophysis.

Skills: A coelophysis gains a +4 racial bonus to all Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot and Survival checks.  

We might give them Uncanny Dodge, but other than that...


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

Look OK?

Ready for Dilophosaurus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2008)

I'm ready, if nobody else has suggestions

Not sure how to handle dilophosaurus: do we want to do a Jurassic Park style dinosaur or a more realistic one? The original I did below splits the difference with poison but no spitting, but there's no evidence for venom grooves on the teeth of real dilophosaurs.

Dilophosaurus
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+14 (45 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 50ft (10 squares)
AC: 16 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+14
Attacks: Talons +10 melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: Talons +10 melee (2d6+5), bite +8 melee (1d4+2 plus poison) 
Face/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Poison
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +4
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +11, Spot +11, Survival +6
Feats: Ability Focus (poison), Run, Track 
Climate/Terrain: Warm forest, plains and desert 
Organization: Solitary or pair
CR: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8-14 HD (Large), 15-21 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This slender biped has a long neck, powerful rear legs and a long darting tail. Its most noticeable feature are its two bony frills running the length of its skull.  

Dilophosaurus are large carnivorous dinosaurs that have evolved several unusual hunting strategies.

A dilophosaurus stands about 5 feet high at the shoulder, and is nearly 20 feet long, although much of this is tail. Its head is its most unusual feature; the lower jaw is unusually thin and weak for a creature of its size, and the upper jaw has a distinctive kink near the tip of the snout, where the creature’s venom glands are located. Two bone plates run along the length of the head. Dilophosaurs are an intermediate species between ceratosaurs and coelophysises.

Combat
Dilophosaurus are not particularly stealthy hunters, but they do not need to be. They rely on their speed to chase down potential prey, and rake at it with their strong hind legs. On particularly large and strong prey, they deliver a venomous bite and retreat, waiting for the poison to take its effect before finishing off the wounded animal. 

Poison (Ex): The bite of a dilophosaurus causes blindness, nausea and weakness. Fortitude DC 17 negates, 1d6 Str plus permanent blindness/1d6 Str. The save DC is Constitution based.


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## RavinRay (Jul 15, 2008)

The closest evidence suggesting at least one dinosaur was poisonous was a single isolated grooved tooth of a small theropod dinosaur found in Mexico and reported in 2000, so if we want to assign this to the D&D _Dilophosaurus_ we can.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

I think we ought to give it poison just 'cause D&D dinos aren't usually interesting enough.  But maybe we need to decide if the poison includes nausea or not; it's not clear in the description.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2008)

Sorry. Problem is that nauseated is both a condition and an actual word. Let's drop that from the description, then, I guess.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Shall we just simplify to the current format?

Poison (Ex): Bite, Fortitude DC 17, initial damage 1d6 Str plus permanent blindness, secondary damage 1d6 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Do we want to have a variant section for the Jurassic Park spitting variety?


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

Hehe, why not?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2008)

Sure! Delivers its poison in a 10ft ranged touch attack?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

Looking good.  Thinking about their usual tactics, should we add pounce?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Seems reasonable to me.  What say the rest of you?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2008)

Pounce seems sensible. I just noticed that its bite attack is at a -2, despite the fact that it doesn't have Multiattack or qualifies for that feat. We could give it as a bonus feat, or change it.

My favorite reconstruction of Dilophosaurus is that done by Gregory Paul, with it balancing on its tail to deliver a powerful kick.


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## RavinRay (Jul 16, 2008)

It makes for a different theropod than your usual run-of-the-mill dinosaur, so I'm happy with it.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for Struthiomimus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2008)

Struthiomimus
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+12 (39 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 60ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+12
Attack: Kick +7 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Kick +7 melee (1d8+4), bite +2 melee (1d6+2) and 2 claws +2 melee (1d3+3)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, sprint
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +2*, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Run
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pair or flock (4-7)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Large), 13-18 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This reptilian biped resembles an ostrich with arms and a long tail. A layer of down coats the creature and its legs are muscular and long.

The struthiomimus is a fast omnivorous dinosaur.

A struthiomimus is about 4 feet tall at the shoulder and about 10 feet long. They live in small flocks of one or more families and eat just about anything. Their diets include, but are not limited to, berries, nuts, tubers, lizards, eggs and small mammals. It has been reported that they will attack and consume halflings, but this is probably just a rumor. They are hunted themselves by tyrannosaurs and dinonychuses, and so their speed is an asset in escaping being eaten as much as it is in catching prey.

Combat
A struthiomimus attacks with its powerful hind legs, its bite and its small claws, but is more likely to simply flee a confrontation using its great speed.

Sprint (Ex): Once per day, a struthiomimus can move at 10 times its normal speed (600ft). It generally uses this ability either on a charge or to flee.

Skills: A struthiomimus receives a +8 racial bonus on all Hide checks made in a plains environment. 

I might want to give it uncanny dodge.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

I might favor a "once every 3 rounds limit" or something similar on the poison spitting, but, yeah, I think we're good for the next one.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Uncanny dodge is good for me for Struthiomimus.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I also added freyar's suggested limit to dilophosaurus.


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2008)

Should uncanny dodge get a line in the Combat section?  Otherwise, Struthiomimus seems pretty well finished.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

freyar said:


> Should uncanny dodge get a line in the Combat section?  Otherwise, Struthiomimus seems pretty well finished.




I've tended to stop writing out the super-common special abilities, like WotC began doing with scent and blindsense and so forth.  If you think we need it, I'm fine with adding it, though.


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2008)

I just wasn't quite sure if uncanny dodge had made it to super-common status or not. Either way works for me.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

If everyone's happy with this one, we can move on to Tanystropheus.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 19, 2008)

Tanystropheus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20ft (4 squares), swim 40ft
Armor Class: 14 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+16
Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+6)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+6)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft (15ft with bite)
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +8, Listen +5, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Warm aquatic and marsh
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Huge), 13-18 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This bizarre creature looks like a snake with webbed feet on stubby legs. Its neck is almost half of its body length.

The tanystropheus is a strange semi-aquatic reptilian predator from the age of the dinosaurs.

A tanystropheus is about thirty feet long, and much of this is neck. They are ambush predators, waiting in caves and underwater to grab passing prey. They feed mostly on fish, but they do grab larger prey, such as humanoids, on occasion.

Combat
A tanystropheus usually attacks from hiding, striking with its needle-sharp teeth and grabbing hold of its prey. It will then retreat, dragging its prey with it.

Improved Grab (Ex): In order to use this ability, a tanystropheus must hit an opponent with a bite attack. It can then make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it deals bite damage each round it maintains the grapple.

Skills: A tanystropheus gains a +8 racial bonus to all Hide checks.

A tanystropheus has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

They should probably be only Large, but should still have 15 foot reach. Dunno about Improved Grab...


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 19, 2008)

Not necessarily useful to our conversion except in changing the description text a bit, but I thought this was interesting:

Tanystropheus Got Back


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## RavinRay (Jul 19, 2008)

The weird thing about this beasty is that although it had a long neck, there were only 12 long cervical vertebrae, which means it wasn't able to coil its neck tightly like, say, _Plesiosaurus_. So while it can bite at targets 10-15 away, it can't do so at targets right next to it unless they are so large that part of their bodies are reachable.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 19, 2008)

RavinRay said:


> The weird thing about this beasty is that although it had a long neck, there were only 12 long cervical vertebrae, which means it wasn't able to coil its neck tightly like, say, _Plesiosaurus_. So while it can bite at targets 10-15 away, it can't do so at targets right next to it unless they are so large that part of their bodies are reachable.




So giving them reach like a polearm would be appropriate--they can't attack adjacent targets.

Perhaps we should give them two pathetic claw attacks (1d2 or 1d3) so they're not completely useless against adjacent foes? That would, however, have the detriment of making their bites weaker.


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't have a problem with giving it reach but not making adjacent attacks, even with no claws.  Might take people a little while to figure it out, anyway, and it would make for a more unusual kind of combat, especially if it's mostly in the water.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Not necessarily useful to our conversion except in changing the description text a bit, but I thought this was interesting:
> 
> Tanystropheus Got Back




Perhaps the added "junk in the trunk" grants them stability?

I'm fine with the long reach/can't attack close, and can go either way on giving them claws attacks.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2008)

I've decided against the claw attacks. And stability does sound appropriate.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2008)

Looking pretty good.  Anything else for it?


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

I'm happy with it.  If Demiurge also approves, we can move on to Teratosaurus.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2008)

We should mention the weight on its hindquarters in the description text. Also, I think that it only deserves a CR 4, not a 5.

Now...

Teratosaurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+40 (95 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+26
Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d8+10)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d8+10)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, worry
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
Skills: Hide +0, Listen +9, Jump +13, Move Silently +7, Spot +9, Survival +7
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Grapple, Track
Environment: Warm desert and plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge), 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This creature resembles a massive crocodile, but it carries its legs directly beneath it and its head is shorter and taller- almost like the head of a dinosaur.

A teratosaurus is a large and carnivorous variety of rausuchian--crocodilians with erect legs like a dinosaur. 

The average teratosaurus is 20 to 30 feet long, and they are the top predators in whatever territory they frequent. They are solitary and territorial; the only other teratosaur a teratosaur will tolerate is either a mate or dead. They are consummate trackers, and will pursue wounded prey for days until it expires from its wounds.

Combat
Teratosaurs have one attack strategy, but they utilize it well- wait until prey approaches, leap out and grab it, shake until dead. They have no concept of retreat and will fight until dead if faced with a strong opposition.

Improved Grab (Ex): In order to use this ability, a teratosaurus must hit an opponent with its bite attack. It can then make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it uses its worry attack.

Worry (Ex): Each round a teratosaurus maintains a grapple, it shakes its prey violently, dealing to it 4d8+14 points of damage.

Skills: A teratosaurus gains a +4 racial bonus to all Hide, Listen, Jump, Move Silently, Spot and Survival checks.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> We should mention the weight on its hindquarters in the description text. Also, I think that it only deserves a CR 4, not a 5.




Done and done.



demiurge1138 said:


> Now...
> 
> Teratosaurus




I always like to see Worry.  

Added to Homebrews.

It can't qualify for Improved Grapple, can it?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 22, 2008)

Alas, not by the RAW--it requires Improved Unarmed Strike. I've always used the barbed devil as my core example that creatures with natural attacks qualify.

Even without Improved Grapple, its grapple mod is pretty solid. Give it Weapon Focus (bite) instead?


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2008)

Sure.  Wanna retain Improved Grapple as a bonus feat as well?


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2008)

Shade said:


> Sure.  Wanna retain Improved Grapple as a bonus feat as well?



Yeah, why not.  Dinos should be scary!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2008)

Agreed to Improved Grapple as a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2008)

Updated.

Anything else, or on to Euparkeria?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

I think it looks about right.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

Euparkeria
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/ -4
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 5
Skills: Hide +9, Listen +2, Move Silently +5, Spot +2
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Warm desert and plains
Organization: Solitary or flock (2-8)
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2 HD (Small), 3 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -

This reptile is about the size of a small dog. It is lizard-like in shape, but it carries its legs underneath it like a crocodile and has a crocodile-like head.

A euparkeria is a primitive thecodont--a group of reptiles including dinosaurs, crocodiles and birds.

Euparkerias are about 3 feet long, and stand about 1 foot off the ground. They eat meat, scavenging when they can and feeding on fish, amphibians and other smaller reptiles. When food is scarce, they join into flocks to hunt larger prey- a pack of six or eight can and will attack man-sized opponents, especially solitary ones.

Combat
Euparkerias prefer to attack from ambush and in numbers. They flee if their prey offers a stiff resistance, however, or if one or more of their number is slain.

According to the Wikipedia, they might have reared onto their hind legs to run quickly... we could give them sprint as a result.


----------



## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Sure, sprint sounds good.  Maybe Run as a bonus feat, too?


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Multiplier for sprint?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Let's do 10x, like a cheetah.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

10x seems a bit much. 6x, perhaps?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Well, it already gets 5x due to Run (or 4x if we drop Run as a bonus feat).  Is 6x quite enough?


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

I don't think they contradict one another.  Run doesn't appear to benefit a creature when it makes a charge, whereas sprint does.

6x sounds reasonable to me.

Anything else?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

I think it's done. What's next? I'm starting to run out of premade conversions!


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## Echohawk (Jul 30, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think it's done. What's next? I'm starting to run out of premade conversions!



According to my notes, these are the still unconverted dinosaurs. (I suspect that one or two may already have been converted under other names.)

From Dragon #112:
Dinosaur, Carnosaur
Dinosaur, Ceratopsian
Dinosaur, Chelonian, Marine
Dinosaur, Coelurosaur
Dinosaur, Crocodilian
Dinosaur, Cyndont
Dinosaur, Dicynodont
Dinosaur, Labyrinthodont
Dinosaur, Ormthopod
Dinosaur, Ornithomimosaur
Dinosaur, Phytosaur
Dinosaur, Prosauropod
Dinosaur, Rhynchosaur
Dinosaur, Sauropod
From _Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two_:
Dinosaur, Dinichthys
Dinosaur, Euparkeria (underway)
From _Monstrous Manual_:
Dinosaur, Lambeosaurus
From _Lands of Intrigue_:
Pythosaurus
From _Dragon #187_:
Shonisaurus


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Let's hit Lambeosaurus next.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 30, 2008)

The dinosaurs in Dragon 112 appear to be generic groupings of dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals.


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## Echohawk (Jul 30, 2008)

Are those all covered by existing conversions then? i.e. Can I drop all fourteen from the "still to be converted" pile?


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't believe Rhynchosaur has a similar conversion yet.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

Or phytosaurs.


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think it's done. What's next? I'm starting to run out of premade conversions!




If you've got Lambeosaurus, go ahead and post it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

Lambeosaurus
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+53 (98 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (-2 size, +6 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+21
Attack: Tail slam +11 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: Tail slam +11 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Trample 2d10+9
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +7, Will +5
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +8, Swim +9
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness 
Environment: Temperate and warm plains and hills
Organization: Solitary, pair or herd (8-40)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge), 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

This large reptilian quadruped has a stiff tail, a duck-like beak and a plow- shaped crest on the top of its head.

Lambeosaurs are a species of hardrosaur that lives in large herds.

A lambeosaur is a very large animal, smaller than its relative the anatotitan, but still averaging over 30 feet long. It still is a common prey item for many carnivorous dinosaurs, but lambeosaurs live in large herds to protect themselves from danger. Each herd has a distant relationship with other nearby herds, and their crests act as powerful amplifiers for their hooting cries. The distress calls of a lambeosaur can be heard from almost a mile away, and if a distress call is given, other herds in earshot flee as rapidly as possible.

Combat
Lambeosaurs shy away from combat unless they or their offspring are threatened. If so, they fight using their powerful tails. 

Trample (Ex): A lambeosaurus can literally run over any creatures in its way that are of Large or smaller size. Creatures trampled must make a Reflex save (DC 21 half) or take 2d10+9 damage. The save DC is Strength based.


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Swap Toughness for something better?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Like other lambeosaurines such as Parasaurolophus and Corythosaurus, Lambeosaurus had a distinctive crest on the top of its head. Its nasal cavity ran back through this crest, making it mostly hollow. Many suggestions have been made for the function or functions of the crest, including housing salt glands, improving the sense of smell, use as a snorkel or air trap, acting as a resonating chamber for making sounds, or being a method for different species or different sexes of the same species to recognize each other.




Is any of that of use?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The large size of hadrosaurid eye sockets and the presence of sclerotic rings in the eyes imply acute vision and diurnal habits, evidence that sight was important to these animals. The hadrosaurid sense of hearing also appears to be strong.




Racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks?


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Sadly, I can't think of a better feat.  Let's give them +4 on Listen and Spot.

Do you want to add Stampede?  That seems somewhat appropriate.


----------



## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Darned double post!


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

They're a bit big for stampede. I think trample works well enough.


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> They're a bit big for stampede. I think trample works well enough.



Fair enough.  Can you think of anything better than Toughness?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

Great Fortitude or Lightning Reflexes.


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

Ahh, the old standbys.  Let's go with Great Fort.


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## Echohawk (Aug 1, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Cynodont
> Dicynodont
> Labyrinthodont



Are there 3e versions any of cynodonts, dicynodonts or labyrinthodonts? I can't seem to find any, but I'm not entirely sure if I'd recognise a labyrinthodont if I saw one .


----------



## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Are there 3e versions any of cynodonts, dicynodonts or labyrinthodonts? I can't seem to find any, but I'm not entirely sure if I'd recognise a labyrinthodont if I saw one .




I don't think so, and neither would I!  

Updated Lambeosaurus.

Ready for Dinichthys?


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

I'm ready, too!

Maybe one of our resident paleontologists can answer the other question...


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

There are no D&D cynodonts, dicynodonts or labyrinthodonts, although I did stat out a few cynodonts for my World of Kong project that we could use as a baseline.

Anyway...

Dinicthys
Huge Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 10d8+50 (95 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 40ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (-2 size, -1 Dex, +15 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+23
Attack: Bite +13 melee (3d6+12)
Full Attack: Bite +13 melee (3d6+12)
Space/Reach: 15ft/10ft
Special Abilities: Improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +5
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 2
Skills: Move Silently +9, Spot +8
Feats: Endurance, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Move Silently)
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge), 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)

This massive fish is entirely covered with huge bony plates, which extend over its jaws to form a horny beak.

The dinicthys is a fish out of history, one whose species is only slightly younger than the evolution of jaws.

A dinicthys is around 30 feet long, but they grow throughout their lives, resulting in some frightfully huge specimens. Although driven into extinction in most areas by the faster and keener-sensed sharks, dinicthys thrive in warm costal waters. They are capable of living in much shallower water than sharks even of smaller sizes, and feed on fish and animals venturing into their territories- including humanoids.

Combat
In combat, a dinicthys grabs an unsuspecting prey item and either swallows it or rips it into bloody chunks. Its bite is as powerful as that of a tyrannosaurus, and can shear through steel.

Improved Grab (Ex): In order to use this ability, a dinicthys must hit with a bite attack. If it hits, it can make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it deals automatic bite damage each round and can swallow its opponent whole.

Swallow Whole (Ex): By making a successful grapple check, a dinicthys may swallow a held foe at least one size smaller than itself whole. Once swallowed, a victim takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage plus 8 acid damage every round until it escapes or dies. A successful grapple check allows the creature to climb out of the stomach and into the dinicthys’s mouth, where another grapple check is required to get free. Alternatively, the swallowed creature can escape by cutting its way out with either claws or a light slashing or piecing weapon. Dealing at least 30 points of damage (AC 13) in this fashion allows the creature to escape. Once a single swallowed creature exits, muscular action closes the whole; another swallowed creature must cut its way out as well. A dinicthys’s stomach can hold 2 Medium-sized, 8 Small, 32 Tiny or 128 Diminutive or smaller creatures. 

Skills: A dinicthys has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.







Based on its crazy shearing jaws, augmented critical seems like a good SA. We also might want to slow it down a bit. Wikipedia suggests (in the article on this animal's actual scientific name, Dunkleosteus) that it was a powerful suction feeder, pulling prey into its jaws, which might be fun to figure out mechanically.


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Based on its crazy shearing jaws, augmented critical seems like a good SA. We also might want to slow it down a bit. Wikipedia suggests (in the article on this animal's actual scientific name, Dunkleosteus) that it was a powerful suction feeder, pulling prey into its jaws, which might be fun to figure out mechanically.




Agreed on both counts.   Maybe something like a reverse bull rush?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 2, 2008)

Reverse bull's rush I like!


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2008)

I like all of it, sounds like fun!


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## RavinRay (Aug 3, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Based on its crazy shearing jaws, augmented critical seems like a good SA. We also might want to slow it down a bit. Wikipedia suggests (in the article on this animal's actual scientific name, Dunkleosteus) that it was a powerful suction feeder, pulling prey into its jaws, which might be fun to figure out mechanically.



Either that, or the "teeth" can have a keen edge, maybe even a vorpal bite for creatures sufficiently small enough.


When the _Monster Manual III_ art gallery came out I thought the armored eel fish was this creature, it turns out it's actually the dragon eel.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

Here's an attempt at the abilities suggested above....

Augmented Critical (Ex): A dinicthys's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.

Vorpal Bite (Ex): The bite of a dinicthys severs the head of a Large or smaller opponent on a critical hit.

Vortex Maw (Ex):  A dinicthys can open its mouth so quickly that it creates a powerful suction.   All creatures within x feet must make Strength checks opposed by the dinicthys's Strength check (+16 for a standard dinicthys), with the same modifiers as a bull rush.  If the dinicthys beats a creature's Strength check result, it pulls the victim 5 feet closer to its jaws. For each 5 points by which its check result is greater than a victim's check result, the dinicthys pulls the victim an additional 5 feet closer.   The victim provokes attacks of opportunity if it is moved.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

I like the Vortex Maw!  How about 10 ft?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2008)

Not such a big fan of the vorpal bite, especially with the current text. I think augmented critical is lethal enough. If we keep it, can we tone it down to vorpal standard, by which I mean, a confirmed critical hit on a natural 20 only?


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Probably doesn't need the vorpal bite, to tell the truth.  Agreed that we should tone it down if we keep it.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

We can drop it.  While vorpal is always fun, this fella would probably rather eat his meal than let part of it float away.  

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Range on Vortex Maw?  Suggested 10 ft upthread.

Bump to CR 7 based on new abilities?


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

How about 30 feet?

I concur that the additional abilities are worth at least +1 CR.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Something that can suck fish in from 30 ft away?  I'm ok if others think it's realistic enough (this was a real animal, after all!), but I might be more comfortable with 15 or 20 ft.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2008)

I like 30. It's cinematic.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

Updated.

All done?   Demiurge, wanna post your version of Nothosaurus?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2008)

Nothosaurus
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20ft (4 squares), swim 40ft
Armor Class: 13 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d8+3)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d8+3), 2 claws +4 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +2  
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +13
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair or shoal (3-12)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large) 9-12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This horse-sized reptile has smooth skin, long jaws with needle-like teeth, webbed paws and a short fin running along its back and tail.

A nothosaurus is a primitive semi-aquatic reptile related to plesiosaurs.

Nothosaurs live on beaches in tropical and semi-tropical climates, and behave much like seals- spending most of their time sleeping on the shore and going into the water to feed. Despite their bulk (10 feet long and about 500 pounds), they are very graceful in the water, where they hunt small fishes and squid.

Combat
Nothosaurs are usually not aggressive to anything larger than a fish, but during mating season the bulls do get territorial and lash out against anything in their way. If provoked, a nothosaurus attacks with its bite and its two front claws.

Skills: A nothosaurus has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Sorta boring, huh? On top of that, I'd recommend hold breath.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Hold breath sounds good.

Hold Breath (Ex): A nothosaurus can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 8 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Nothosaurus hunted by sneaking up slowly on prey, such as shoals of small fish, the putting on a last-minute burst of speed. Once caught, few animals would be able to shake themselves free from the mouth of Nothosaurus.




A swim variation on sprint?

Racial bonus on Move Silently?

Improved grab and/or bonus on grapple checks?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2008)

Racial bonus to move silently and Imp. Grab sound good. I just noticed that the damage is wrong--it's calculated using Str 16, it looks like. I'd also be willing to drop the claw attacks and let it do bite only.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.  I dropped the claws, which frees up the feat slot formerly taken by Multiattack.   Stealthy, perhaps?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

Stealthy is good.  I kind of like the idea of a swimming sprint ability, too.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

How's this?

Dart (Ex): Once per hour, a nothosaurus can swim five times its normal speed (200 feet) when it makes a charge.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Oh, nice name!  Definitely right for something that swims.  And looks good to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2008)

I like it.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

I believe that concludes those for which Demiurge has conversions. 

*Shonisaurus*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subtropical/tropical, any water
FREQUENCY Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: SW 15
HIT DICE: 18
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallow whole
SPECIAL DEFENCE: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (49')
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE:  12,000

This was the giant of the ichthyosaur family, a group of marine reptiles that resembled long-snouted dolphins with vertical tail fins like a fish’s. Shonisaurus had a huge guppy-shaped body with powerful elongated jaws; overall, Shonisaurus was 49’ long. Oddly, the front and rear pairs of paddles were of equal length—an unusual feature in aquatic vertebrates.

The jaws of Shonisaurus are too narrow to swallow man-sized prey whole, although smaller-than-man-size creatures will be swallowed whole on a roll of two or more over the number needed to hit. The bite does great damage.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #187 (1992).


Wikipedia entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shonisaurus


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Could maybe be Gargantuan, but I'm thinking probably Colossal.  

Swallow whole, but only for Small or smaller?  Definitely Imp Grab.

Edit: we have any other large ichthyosaurs to compare stats?


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

Besides the Ichthyosaur in Stormwrack, we've done Temnodontosaurus


----------



## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Ok, Temnodontosaurus has Str 22, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 9.  Just want to upsize those stats to G or C?


----------



## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

G: Str 30, Dex 17, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 9
C: Str 38, Dex 17, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 9


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Anyone have an opinion on the size?

Based on the "great damage" from the bite, I'd suggest bumping Str a little.  We could probably also decrease Dex and Wis a little to compensate since these feel more like brute strength hunters rather than stealthy or quick ones.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 8, 2008)

Let's go for Colossal.


----------



## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

So, Colossal and Str 40, Dex 15, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 9?


----------



## freyar (Aug 8, 2008)

Looks good to me.


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 9, 2008)

It's ok with me as well. Ichthyosaurs with barrel-shaped bodies and lunate tails were better adapted as open ocean pursuit predators (like tuna) than as ambush predators, which had a more elongated, sea-serpent body plan.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 9, 2008)

Yeah, but this is a pursuit predator the size of a boat. What would it eat? Entire clouds of fish or squid? I suspect that the niche of Shonisaurus was something more like a humpback whale. Which means we should give it some sort of ability to suck up large quantities of water, and its attendant lifeforms, in one gulp. Fortunately, we've already gotten a suction feeding mechanic hammered out for Dunkleosteus. We just need to make it bigger.


----------



## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Its speed converts to 40 feet, but the smaller ichthyosaur has 50 feet.  Should we increase its speed?

Here's the vortex maw we came up with earlier.

Vortex Maw (Ex): A dinicthys can open its mouth so quickly that it creates a powerful suction. All creatures within 30 feet must make Strength checks opposed by the dinicthys's Strength check (+16 for a standard dinicthys), with the same modifiers as a bull rush. If the dinicthys beats a creature's Strength check result, it pulls the victim 5 feet closer to its jaws. For each 5 points by which its check result is greater than a victim's check result, the dinicthys pulls the victim an additional 5 feet closer. The victim provokes attacks of opportunity if it is moved.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

Yeah, let's go to 60 ft (or 50 if we need to compromise).  Increase the vortex maw range to 40 ft?

Good to have you back, Shade!


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

Dratted double posts!


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2008)

I'd keep its speed lower. This thing is bulky and enormous. Baleen and cachalot whales both have speeds of 40 as well.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'd keep its speed lower. This thing is bulky and enormous. Baleen and cachalot whales both have speeds of 40 as well.




Fair enough.  Thoughts on the vortex maw?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2008)

It looks good as is, although we might want to increase the range. 

Mean thought--could we give it the Improved Bull's Rush feat and apply it to the vortex maw?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2008)

It looks good as is, although we might want to increase the range. 

Mean thought--could we give it the Improved Bull's Rush feat and apply it to the vortex maw?


----------



## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

Well, that would give the "DC" a big boost.  OTOH, it already has a +31 on the check.  Perhaps IBR would be overkill?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2008)

+31? Yeah, IBR would be gilding the lily there.

EDIT: Wait a minute! Why didn't I see this before? Having the vortex maw pull in everything in a 30ft radius is a little overkill. Not to mention, unlikely. A cone seems much more reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

So...30-foot cone for the dinicthys, 40-foot cone for Shonisaurus?


----------



## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

Oh, yeah, cone makes much more sense.  Agreed to the lengths.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2008)

Both sound good!


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 21
Icthyosaur and Temnodontosaurus have Spot and Listen

Feats: 7
Icthyosaur has Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Swim-By Attack
Temnodontosaurus has Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

Challenge Rating: 11-12?

Advancement: 19+ HD (Colossal)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2008)

Well, Swim By Attack isn't in the SRD, so...

Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Alertness, Great Fort, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)?


----------



## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

Split the skills, demiurge's feats look good, probably CR 12.  Advance to 36 HD?

Just realized that ichthyosaurs aren't aquatic.  Huh.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2008)

They're reptiles; they still breathe air. Hold breath might be appropriate as an SQ.


----------



## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 20, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Well, Swim By Attack isn't in the SRD, so...



But it did appear as OGC in Fantasy Flight Games' _Draconic Lore_, of which I have a copy. As written, it was worded for dragons, but the version in _Stormwrack_ simply re-wrote it for monsters in general.

Looks like _Dinichthys_ is done.


----------



## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

Looks done.  

If we didn't just stick to core stuff...  It would be a good substitute feat for someone to give this, though.  You know, I wonder if this is just convergent design or if WotC is just ignoring their OGL obligations.


----------



## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm betting on convergent design, because that feat is such a no-brainer.  I'm shocked it wasn't core in 3.5, or even core to begin with.


----------



## Shade (Aug 21, 2008)

Here's a fictional dinosaur...

Many jokingly call the mythical lake monster "Esmelda."  Many stories describe the monster in similar ways, though inconsistencies creep in: "Body longer than two boats"; "long neck like a snake, but a head with jaws like I hear dragons have"; "it had a ridge of plates or spines running full-length along its neck and back"; "its flukes and flippers were the size of our pleasure craft"; "its entire body was like a sea snake, and it could've wrapped the whole boat up and crushed it"; "its eyes were intelligent and it cast a paralysis beam on us that froze us right there"; "it seemed playful, coming up just beneath the boat, popping its head out of the water to eat the net with my day's catch in it." A few folk around the lake swear to have seen this creature, claiming it must be a dragon given its reptilian features and massive size.

"Esmelda" is all too real--but she is not just one monster. The depths of the lake support over a dozen cold/loving waterbreathing reptiles called pythosaurs, which come to the surface only if provoked or hungry. A pythosaur will attack boats as well as sailors.

Pythosaurus (1; 13): AC 4; MV 30; HD 18; hp 72 (ave.); THAC0 15; #AT 1; Dmg 5-30; SA swallow; SD none; SW none; MR none; SZ G (body 120 feet, neck 70 feet); ML Elite (13); Int Animal (1); AL N; XP 7,000, Notes: SA--When attacking any creature under 10 feet tall (L-size), this creature swallows the victim whole on a THAC0 of 19 or 20. Swallowed victims suffer 2hit points damage per round until dead.

Originally appeared in Lands of Intrigue (1997).


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

Want to make these Gargantuan or Colossal?  Sounds like Colossal probably.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2008)

Colossal. Also, magical beast. My suspension of disbelief sensors go crazy with the water-breathing reptile thing.

Also, then we could actually give them paralysis gaze.


----------



## Shade (Aug 21, 2008)

Alternatively, go with hold breath and keep 'em animals.

I'm fine either way.


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## RavinRay (Aug 22, 2008)

Looks like a Colossal magical beast to me if it's a water-breathing reptile with a paralyzing gaze; then again, who's to say that a reptile can't revert to an evolutionary throwback state and propagate that mutation to its offspring while remaining an animal.


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

If we want the paralysis, I say magical beast.  But if we decide it's just a rumor, let's go animal.  I'm torn on the issue.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

It sounds like the only strong vote is for magical beast, so let's go that route.  

Advancing an elasmosaurus to Colossal yields...

Str 42, Dex 14, Con 30, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9

Do those scores work here?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Aug 22, 2008)

If we're going to give it a paralyzing gaze, it might need a higher charisma (unless the gaze is constitution-based).


----------



## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Good point, but I think Con-based could work in this instance.


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## RavinRay (Aug 23, 2008)

I was thinking Fortitude save for the paralysis so it would have to be Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Truly aquatic/water-breather or hold breath?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 3, 2008)

Since we're going magical beast, I say aquatic.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

Aquatic.  And I think we should boost the Cha and go Cha-based on the paralysis.  I don't think it needs to be Con-based to be a Fort save.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2008)

OK, you guys have convinced me on Cha-based (since most gaze attacks appear to be Cha-based).

How high would you like to increase it?


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

I'd say Cha 16-17 should be plenty; if we need to boost the DC, we can always add Ability Focus.  Also, shouldn't the gaze attack be Su?

On swallow whole, let's go with 20 hp damage to escape.  The gizzard is AC 17 by the usual rules.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

Updated.

Space/Reach: 40 ft./40 ft. (70 ft. w/bite?)

Skills: 21

Feats: 7

Environment: Temperate or cold aquatic?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-12?)

Advancement: 19-x HD (Colossal)


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

Space/Reach and Environment are good.
Organization: Pod?  (These seem close enough to whales for that. )
Advancement to 30 HD?

Skills: Maybe split evenly between Listen, Spot, & Swim?  Alternately, I could just see maxing Spot or Listen.

Feats: Ability Focus (paralysis gaze), Snatch (for flinging)?, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Lightning Reflexes?, Iron Will?

2 minutes for paralysis, range 60 ft?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 4, 2008)

Max Spot and Listen. They have a good enough Strength that we can neglect to put actual ranks in Swim, I think.

I think the paralysis gaze should require an action to focus, like a vampire's domination gaze. Paralysis is a powerful status effect.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

Let's use Improved Critical rather than Lightning Reflexes, but otherwise I like the rest.

Let's also allow a bit higher advancement.

Updated.

CR 13-14?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

Improved Crit was something I considered, so sure!

Want to use a standard action for the gaze, then?

CR 13 probably.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

Yeah, demiurge's suggestion makes sense.

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

Looks pretty much done!


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

*LABYRINTHODONT*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 3-24
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 3"//22"
HIT DICE: 1 hp to 8 HD
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 (bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil to 2-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallow whole
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
SIZE: S to L (up to 15' long)

Labyrinthodonts are amphibians, and flourish in Triassic settings.  They resemble crocodilians in overall form, but the typical labyrinthodont has a flattened head with upward-staring eyes, a flat broad body, and feeble legs.  The mouth is huge, and full of sharp teeth. The hatchlings and very young individuals have feathery external gills, like a modern salamander larva.

Labyrinthodonts include the largest amphibians ever to exist; fortunately, they never stay far from water. A labyrinthodont typically lies below the water's surface, hoping to surprise whatever edible morsel may pass by.  Individuals with 7 HD or more can swallow man-sized prey whole. 

Labyrinthodonts vary with size as follows:

HIT DICE: 1 hp ¼ ½ 1 2
DAMAGE: Nil 1 1-2 1-4 2-5
SIZE: S(2) S(3) S(4) M(5) M(6)

HIT DICE: 3 4 5-6 7-8
DAMAGE: 2-8 2-12 2-16 2-20
SIZE: M(7) L(8-9) L(10-11) L(12-15)

Originally apperead in Dragon Magazine #112 (1986).

Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinthodont

We may have to create several varieties, as they seem to differ quite a bit by genus and taxon.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2008)

Eryops would be a good Medium sized labyrinthodont; a big burly terrestrial bruiser-type. Paracyclotosaurus was big enough to be Large, and would be a good fit for the "labyrinthodont" above.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

Sounds good.  Let's start with eryops.

Let's look at Medium amphibians and compare them to a Medium croc to get stats.

Killer Frog: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 10
Giant Toad: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 9, Cha 5
Crocodile:  Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Also compare to dimetrodon: Str 18, Dex 6, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 10

So maybe Str 17, Dex 10-12, Con 15-17, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 2+?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2008)

Dex 10, Con 17, Cha 5 (?)


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## Whitemouse (Sep 9, 2008)

Has the Woolly Mammoth and Mastodon been done?


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

Added to Homebrews using the suggested ability scores.



Whitemouse said:


> Has the Woolly Mammoth and Mastodon been done?




Both are available in official products; woolly mammoth in Frostburn, and mastodon in Monster Manual III.   We've done a few similar prehistoric pachyderms

Ambelodon

Anacus


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Eryops is looking good so far.  Want to bump the bite damage up a little from the croc bite? Either 1d10 or 2d6?


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## RavinRay (Sep 10, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Dex 10, Con 17, Cha 5 (?)



Dex 10 since it's not an agile swimmer or crawler either.
Con 17 seems fair when compared to the giant toad, it seems a sturdier amphibian.
Cha 5 this would be the upper limit for me since its lifestyle doesn't seem to need a high Cha.

_Mastodonsaurus_ and _Platyhystrix_ would be fun to convert, especially the latter.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

freyar said:


> Eryops is looking good so far.  Want to bump the bite damage up a little from the croc bite? Either 1d10 or 2d6?




I like 1d10.



RavinRay said:


> _Mastodonsaurus_ and _Platyhystrix_ would be fun to convert, especially the latter.




Yeah, sounds fun.  

Improved grab/swallow whole?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Definitely seems like it should have Imp Grab and Swallow Whole...


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## RavinRay (Sep 11, 2008)

Yeah, improved grab and swallow whole. Those critters' heads were basically all mouth.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

Updated.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Eryops’ eye sockets were large and directed upward. The body was low to the ground and supported by short, massive limbs. The tail was short, suggesting the animal was not a fast or powerful swimmer. The flat skull with the large eyes and nostrils placed on the top of the head are suggestive that Eryops used stealth for hunting, much like a modern crocodile, and sat quietly in the water waiting for prey with only its eyes and nostrils visible above the water.




Borrow this?

*A crocodile gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water. Further, a crocodile can lie in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.

Skills: 5
Hide 3, Listen 1, Spot 1?

Feats: 1
Alertness?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2008)

Skills sound good. I'm not a huge fan of Alertness, but it fits in this case.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

Updated.

Scent?

Environment: Warm marshes?

Organization: Solitary?

Advancement: x

Fill in the x's:

Swallow Whole (Ex): An eryops can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes x+x points of bludgeoning damage and x points of acid damage per round from the gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the gizzard (AC x). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Large eryops's gizzard can hold x Small, x Tiny, or x Diminutive or smaller opponents.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Scent, environment, organization: yes.

Advancement: 3-5 HD (Medium), 6-9 HD (Large)?

1d10+4 bludgeoning, 1d4 acid?  10 pts damage, gizzard AC 11.  2 Small, 8 Tiny, 32 Diminutive?


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## RavinRay (Sep 12, 2008)

I'm go for the Scent, environment, organization, and advancement.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

It should be Tiny on down. It shouldn't be able to swallow Small creatures, seeing as how it's only Medium. 

I don't think Scent is appropriate. Amphibians aren't exactly known for keen senses of smell.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

2 Tiny, 8 Diminutive?


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Updated.

CR 2?


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

CR 2 looks right, and I guess we're ready for the next one.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Shall we tackle Paracyclotosaurus next?  Or should we just mention it in the flavor text of eryops that it is the Large part of the advancement line?

Alternatively, we can cut the advancement past Medium from eryops, and keep paracyclotosaurus separate.  It might ease the burden on DMs with the different swallow whole capacity.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

I'll defer to the experts, but I wonder if there's any other ability that would be reasonable to add if we did it separately?  (Something to distinguish it a bit.)


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Should eryops be aquatic with amphibious ability (since it is an amphibian, after all)?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2008)

That sounds about right.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Shade said:


> Should eryops be aquatic with amphibious ability (since it is an amphibian, after all)?



Sounds right to me, too.

demiurge or RavinRay, any thoughts on whether Paracyclotosaurus should be a different creature?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

Hm. Give it a better Swim speed, worse land speed, and the suction feeding as per the Dinichthys conversion. Suction feeding is a good ability; giving it another HD and/or boosting Str and Con a bit should bump it up to CR 3.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Hm. Give it a better Swim speed, worse land speed, and the suction feeding as per the Dinichthys conversion. Suction feeding is a good ability; giving it another HD and/or boosting Str and Con a bit should bump it up to CR 3.




Sounds good.  Jump to Large as well?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Going Large probably makes sense.  Could just bump Str and Con per usual advancement rules if that's in line with CR 3.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

I wouldn't increase the size. Paracyclotosaurus was six to eight feet long--on the big size of Medium, but still Medium.

Of course, Large would make it scarier and the suction feeding more useful... so I can see the appeal for game purposes.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I wouldn't increase the size. Paracyclotosaurus was six to eight feet long--on the big size of Medium, but still Medium.
> 
> Of course, Large would make it scarier and the suction feeding more useful... so I can see the appeal for game purposes.




Let's go Medium and allow advancement to Large.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

We'll need another feat.

Reduce vortex maw to 10 feet?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

How about Stealthy?  10 ft makes sense for the vortex.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

Agreed to 10 feet and Stealthy.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for Mastodonsaurus?

According to this site, "the great Mastodonsaurus may have reached four or five meters".


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

I'd say we're ready. 

Start by upsizing to Large with advancement to Huge?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Do we want to upsize eryops (no vortex maw) or paracyclotosaurus?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

I guess the vortex maw.  Anything else we can do to distinguish these?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2008)

No land speed whatsoever, or 5 feet at the most. Get rid of the amphibious subtype. It appears that these guys had a hard time on land and a fossil bed of them died in a drought.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

All sounds good.  Suggested Hit Dice?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Sounds fair to me.  I was a little unsure whether we'd be justified in getting rid of amphibious, but it works.  We could give them hold breath, maybe, if we give them the slow land speed.

Edit: How about starting at 5HD?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

We missed the weight on Paracyclotosaurus:

A paracyclotosaurus is 6 to 8 feet long, weighing around x pounds.

For massy...

15-foot cone for vortex maw?

Swallow Whole (Ex): A mastodonsaurus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes (2d8+8?) points of bludgeoning damage and (1d6?) points of acid damage per round from the gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal (15?) points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

300 lb?  

15ft.  Suggestions for swallow whole look good.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2008)

Everything looks good. I like the idea of giving them Hold Breath.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

Updated.

Rather than "hold breath", how's this?

Partially Amphibious (Ex): A mastodonsaurus can survive for a number of rounds equal to x times its Constitution score out of water.  After that, it risks drowning. For a typical mastodonsaurus, this is x rounds, or x minutes.

Edit:  On second thought, should we just adapt this?

Water Dependent (Ex): Sahuagin can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules on page 304 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide).

CR 4?

Advancement: 6-9 HD (Large), 11-15 HD (Huge)?

A mastodonsaurus is 12 to 15 feet long, weighing around x pounds.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

So it comes down to hours vs minutes, really.  I'm thinking go with Water Dependent.  800-1000 lb?  The rest seems good.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2008)

Water dependancy looks good to me.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

Updated.  Complete?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

Looks done.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

Ready for the Platyhystrix?

It looks like it should be Small ("less than a meter").

Downsizing eryops would yield...

Str 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 5

Sound OK?   1 Hit Die?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

That all sounds good.

Perhaps we can give it some kind of thermal tolerance thanks to that "sail."


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews (with some placeholders from eryops).

Should we retain improved grab/swallow whole (downsized, of course)?

How about the Hide bonuses in water?   I can't seem to locate any information on their tactics.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2008)

Bonus to saves vs. temperature extremes is good. I think we should ditch improved grab and swallow whole, and the Hide bonus in water. They appear to have been predominately terrestrial--we might not even want them to get a swim speed.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2008)

We might also want to convert this guy. Largest amphibian ever!


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Bonus to saves vs. temperature extremes is good. I think we should ditch improved grab and swallow whole, and the Hide bonus in water. They appear to have been predominately terrestrial--we might not even want them to get a swim speed.



I generally agree.  Maybe drop (aquatic) but give it hold breath with a slow swim speed, since it's supposed to be amphibious.

And prionosuchus would rock!


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

All sounds good.

Updated.

Advancement: x

A platyhystrix is 2 to 3 feet long, weighing around x pounds.

Tactics?


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## GrayLinnorm (Sep 19, 2008)

I believe that there was an issue of Dragon Magazine that featured Paleozoic creatures, including Eryops, Eogyrhinus, and a giant Platyhistrix.

If we're doing prehistoric amphibians, I'd like to see Diplocaulus.  That's always been one of my favorites.


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I believe that there was an issue of Dragon Magazine that featured Paleozoic creatures, including Eryops, Eogyrhinus, and a giant Platyhistrix.




<checks Echohawk's index>

Well, sure enough!  I'll find those stats and see how they compare to what we've come up with so far.



GrayLinnorm said:


> If we're doing prehistoric amphibians, I'd like to see Diplocaulus.  That's always been one of my favorites.




Me too.  I remember having a model of one as a kid.


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

From Dragon #176 (1991)...

*Eogyrinus*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps, marshes
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 2d6
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 2, Sw 6
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise bonus
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: L (15’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 120

Eogyrinus is typical of the largest amphibian predators of the Carboniferous period (345-280 million years ago), a time of tremendous forestation on the swampy land. A swamp dweller, this monster's length is due to the long, slender shape of its body, with short legs and a crocodilelike skull. It will attack anything that steps in front of it (lying in ambush is its preferred hunting technique). In swampy terrain, give it a + 1 bonus to surprise opponents because of its skill at hiding.

*Eryops*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps, marshes
FREQUENCY: Common
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 2d8
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 2, SW 2
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: M (5’long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 120

Eryops is the most famous of the large amphibians of the early Permian period
(280-230 million years ago). It spent a bit more time out on dry land than its fellows did, and it adapted to meet the challenge, as is reflected in its slightly better armor class. It is thick bodied, weighing at least as much as Eogyrinus although it is only a third as long. Its mouth is large and heavily studded with teeth. In areas where the reptiles haven't totally taken over yet, Eryops will be one of the most-common predators.

*Cyclotosaurus*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps, marshes,
rivers
FREQUENCY: Common
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 3d8
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 2, SW 10
HIT DICE: 5
No. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: + 1 to surprise foes in
swampy terrain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: L (14’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)

Cyclotosaurus is something of a successor to Eogyrinus in the "amphibian-crocodile" line. Possibly appearing in the mid-to-late Permian period, it is found most often in the Triassic period in the Mesozoic era. Unlike the eel-like Eogyrinus, Cyclotosaurus is built like a conventional crocodile with about the same body proportions. Only the lack of scales on its smooth skin betrays its real ancestry, and a character caught in its jaws might not appreciate such subtleties.

Cyclotosaurus hunts in the same manner as a crocodile, lurking near riverbanks and ambushing anything that comes by to drink. Its great jaws do enough damage to kill the toughest 1st-level character with a single snap. The creature's durability is testimony to its efficient hunting methods; it did not become extinct until real reptilian crocodiles evolved from a branch of the archosaurs.

*Cacops*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps, rivers
FREQUENCY: Common
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 2d4
ARMOR CLASS: 7/3 (back)
MOVEMENT: 4, SW 6
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: S (3’long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 35

Cacops is another amphibian of the Permian period that spent more time than usual out on land. It is best known for its heavily armored backbone; this gives its back a better armor class than the rest of its body (since it is so small, attacking characters will hack down at it). Its mouth is full of sharp teeth.

*Platyhystrix, giant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps, rivers
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 3/7 (belly)
MOVEMENT! 2, SW 6
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: L (10’ long)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 120

Platyhystrix is a relative and contemporary of Cacops in the Permian period. The original version was only 3' long, but it's so weird that I've included a giant version for AD&D game play. The creature looks like an amphibian version of Dimetrodon, having the same sail-like fin on its back. This fin is a further development of the back armor of Cacops, and the ribs of Platyhystrix have also broadened out to protect the creature, so it is AC 3 when attacked from both flanks as well as on the back. A vicious predator, it can be found on land far more often than any other amphibian, even Eryops. If your players haven't heard of Platyhystrix, they might mistake it for a Dimetrodon at a distance and waste an arrow of reptile slaying on it.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2008)

Let's see.

Eryops: The Dragon Mag version is a bit faster on land and has 2 more HD.  Increasing land speed is fine with me, but changing HD is more trouble.  Want to bump to 4HD?

Should we "giantize" platyhystrix as in Dragon?


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## GrayLinnorm (Sep 22, 2008)

freyar said:


> Let's see.
> 
> Eryops: The Dragon Mag version is a bit faster on land and has 2 more HD. Increasing land speed is fine with me, but changing HD is more trouble. Want to bump to 4HD?
> 
> Should we "giantize" platyhystrix as in Dragon?





If it makes it a more viable foe, I'm for it.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 23, 2008)

I don't think we should embiggen Platyhystrix or bump Eryops HD.


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## Echohawk (Sep 23, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I don't think we should embiggen Platyhystrix or bump Eryops HD.



I agree; the real world versions are perfectly cromulent.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

We'll stick with the real-world versions, but we can either create a "giant" version of platyhystrix, like the Dragon version, or allow advancement to that size.

Preferences?


----------



## freyar (Sep 23, 2008)

Allowing advancement seems reasonable.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 23, 2008)

Let's allow advancement.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

So...

Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small); 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-10 HD (Large)?  (Note that dimetrodon is Large at 7 HD)

A platyhystrix is 2 to 3 feet long, weighing around x pounds.

Tactics? 



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Eryops: The Dragon Mag version is a bit faster on land and has 2 more HD. Increasing land speed is fine with me, but changing HD is more trouble. Want to bump to 4HD?




Isn't is slower?  Following the conversion guidelines, its movement of 2 multiplied by 2.5 yields a land speed of 5 feet.  Right?


----------



## freyar (Sep 23, 2008)

Shade said:


> So...
> 
> Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small); 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-10 HD (Large)?  (Note that dimetrodon is Large at 7 HD)
> 
> ...



Advancement sounds good.  75lb?

Ummm, hmm, mostly likes to attack animals smaller than itself?



> Isn't is slower?  Following the conversion guidelines, its movement of 2 multiplied by 2.5 yields a land speed of 5 feet.  Right?



Doh!  Remembered the wrong conversion factor.  You're right.  Let's stick with the higher speed, though.


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Updated.

Shall we do cacops next?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 24, 2008)

If we do, I'm not sure how we'd make it interesting. Basically, a Tiny (16 inches long) version of Eryops.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

Let's convert it just for the sake of completeness.

I suppose its only interesting bit is its "heavily armored backbone."

Dropping eryops to Tiny yields...
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 5

We gave eryops +3 natural armor.  I could see giving cacops +4, maybe +5 if we push the envelope. 

Thoughts?


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## GrayLinnorm (Sep 24, 2008)

Light fortification?


----------



## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Light fortification?




An excellent suggestion.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 24, 2008)

Agreed to light fort.


----------



## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

A cacops is 16 inches long, weighing x pounds.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 25, 2008)

CR 1/2

Advancement 2 HD (Tiny), 3-4 HD (Small)

10 pounds?


----------



## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

That'll work.

Shall we tackle Diplocaulus next?

I'm thinking its key feature will be, due to its wide head, that it is treated as a larger creature for purposes of swallow whole.


----------



## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

Interesting idea.  Sure, I'm all for that!


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm also thinking that its head shield could give it light fortification. It's probably not going to be able to swallow whole.

Maybe it can stab opponents with its head shield?


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I'm also thinking that its head shield could give it light fortification. It's probably not going to be able to swallow whole.
> 
> Maybe it can stab opponents with its head shield?




Agreed with no swallow whole, and I could see light fortification here as well.

Maybe a slam attack with its head?  Nothing seems to indicate it was sharp.

It is 3 feet long, so Small.

Here's what we assigned the Small platyhystrix:  
Str 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 5



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Judging from its weak limbs and relatively short tail, it is presumed to have swum with an up-and-down movement of its body, not unlike cetaceans today.




That suggests less Strength.

How about:  Str 9, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 5?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 26, 2008)

Do not agree to light fort. The head isn't a shield at all--it's more for movement in the water. Let me post the inox, a giant Diplocaulus I converted from World of Kong...

INOX
Large Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 7d8+14 (45 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 10ft (2 squares), swim 30ft
Armor Class: 13 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+12
Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Amphibious, hard-to-swallow, hydrofoil, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +6, Move Silently +10, Spot +4
Feats: Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Warm aquatic (freshwater)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8-14 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

A fat brown lizard-like creature glides through the water, its boomerang-shaped head opening to reveal a wide jaw filled with conical teeth.

Ambush predators, inox cruise the rivers and lakes of Skull Island snapping up fish and wading birds. They converge on nesting grounds of ligocristus on muddy islands, hoping to snap up hatchling dinosaurs drinking or attempting to cross the water. Primitive amphibians, their bizarre heads make them more difficult to be swallowed whole and help them cut through fast-moving currents.

Most inox reach a length between 12 and 18 feet.

Combat
Inox strike fast and first, hoping to quickly grab and swallow prey. They are unlikely to attack a troupe of adventurers crossing their path, but if hungry enough, they may attempt to snap up a halfling or gnome falling behind.

Improved Grab (Ex): In order to use this ability, an inox must hit an opponent with its bite attack. It can then make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it can attempt to swallow its opponent whole.

Swallow Whole (Ex): An inox can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the inox’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 15 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 10). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Large inox’s gizzard can hold 1 Small, 4 Tiny, 8 Diminutive or 32 Fine creatures.

Hard to Swallow (Ex): An inox counts as one size category larger for the purposes of being swallowed whole.

Hydrofoil (Ex): An inox gains a +4 bonus on any Swim check made to swim against a current.

Skills: An inox gains a +4 racial bonus on all Hide and Move Silently checks. An inox has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim checks to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always take 10 on Swim checks even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Ooh, neat!  

The hard-to-swallow is exactly what I was thinking, and the hydrofoil looks good, too.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Wow, you guys move fast!  I'd say it looks pretty much done!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 27, 2008)

Looks done to me too. Are we out of labyrinthodonts?


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2008)

I think so!   Now we've got these...

*Eogyrinus*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps, marshes
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 2d6
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 2, Sw 6
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise bonus
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: L (15’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 120

Eogyrinus is typical of the largest amphibian predators of the Carboniferous period (345-280 million years ago), a time of tremendous forestation on the swampy land. A swamp dweller, this monster's length is due to the long, slender shape of its body, with short legs and a crocodilelike skull. It will attack anything that steps in front of it (lying in ambush is its preferred hunting technique). In swampy terrain, give it a + 1 bonus to surprise opponents because of its skill at hiding.

This site has some useful information:
Eogyrinus - Dinosaurs For Kids - KidsDinos.com

Wikipedia Entry:  Eogyrinus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## freyar (Sep 29, 2008)

Wikipedia makes a comment that it could possibly do a "death roll" like a croc?  Think we could do something with that?  Definitely should max Hide and Move Silently.  Stealthy might be a good feat choice, also.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 30, 2008)

Our Mastodontosaurus already fills a very similar niche.


----------



## Shade (Sep 30, 2008)

Let's give it a go to allow Echohawk to knock another off his list. 

It should go fairly quickly.

It is slightly bigger on average than Mastodontosaurus, probably lacks the vortex maw, and might be a tad more dexterous.

Maybe drop Str to 23 and increase Dex to 12, closer to a crocodile?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 1, 2008)

Sure! Stat out the death roll as extra damage to grappled foes, ala constrict/worry?


----------



## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Sounds reasonable to me.


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Once their prey is dead, they rip off and swallow chunks of flesh. When groups of Nile crocodiles are sharing a kill, they use each other for leverage, biting down hard and then twisting their body to tear off large pieces of meat. This is called the death roll. They may also get the necessary leverage by lodging their prey under branches or stones, before rolling and ripping.




How's this?

Death Roll (Ex): An eogyrinus that successfully gets a hold on an opponent with its improved grab ability lodges its prey against natural terrain or even another eogyrinus, then bites down hard and twists its body to tear off large pieces of meat.  If another eogyrinus joins the grapple, both eogyrinuses deal maximum damage.  This attack deals bite damage each round until the victim breaks free, the eogyrinus is slain, or the victim dies.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Sure, I like it!


----------



## Echohawk (Oct 1, 2008)

Shade said:


> Let's give it a go to allow Echohawk to knock another off his list.



Much obliged


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 7 ranks
Crocs have Hide, Listen, Spot, Swim

Same racial bonuses on skills as crocs?

Feats: 2
Alertness, Stealthy?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-12) [pod?]

Challenge Rating: 3?

Advancement: x


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2008)

I'd go with Weapon Focus (bite) over Alertness, but otherwise, looks good.


----------



## RavinRay (Oct 2, 2008)

The death roll sounds good, I'm 50/50 over Weapon Focus and Alertness.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

Updated.

Advancement: 5-6 HD (Large); 7-14 HD (Huge)?  (This follows the crocodile and giant crocodile progressions)


----------



## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

I like the advancement, and then I think it's done!


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

*Cyclotosaurus*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps, marshes,
rivers
FREQUENCY: Common
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 3d8
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 2, SW 10
HIT DICE: 5
No. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: + 1 to surprise foes in
swampy terrain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: L (14’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)

Cyclotosaurus is something of a successor to Eogyrinus in the "amphibian-crocodile" line. Possibly appearing in the mid-to-late Permian period, it is found most often in the Triassic period in the Mesozoic era. Unlike the eel-like Eogyrinus, Cyclotosaurus is built like a conventional crocodile with about the same body proportions. Only the lack of scales on its smooth skin betrays its real ancestry, and a character caught in its jaws might not appreciate such subtleties.

Cyclotosaurus hunts in the same manner as a crocodile, lurking near riverbanks and ambushing anything that comes by to drink. Its great jaws do enough damage to kill the toughest 1st-level character with a single snap. The creature's durability is testimony to its efficient hunting methods; it did not become extinct until real reptilian crocodiles evolved from a branch of the archosaurs.

Originally apperead in Dragon Magazine #176 (1991).


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

Similar but bigger?  Ues the death roll again?


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

Hmmm...investigating this one, it appears to be very, very similar to mastodontosaurus.  It is only slightly smaller.   This one may be difficult to justify a conversion.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't think that converting this is necessary.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Echohawk, if I add the following to mastodonsaurus, would that be sufficient to remove cyclotosaurus from the list?

"These statistics can be used to represent other large temnospondyls, such as cyclotosaurus, cherninia, and siderops." 

Shall we tackle Erythrosuchus next?


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## Echohawk (Oct 3, 2008)

Shade said:


> Echohawk, if I add the following to mastodonsaurus, would that be sufficient to remove cyclotosaurus from the list?



Sure!

That reminds me, have I missed conversions of any of the following prehistoric creatures (possibly under other names)?

Aepycamelus	
Agriotherium (savannah bear)
Archosaur, Rhynchosaur
Armored Predatory Fish	
Astrapotherium	
Bear, Short-Faced
Camel, Giant
Deinotherium	
Elephant, Dwarf
Erythrosuchus		
Gigantopithecus
Hippopotamus, Giant	
Macrauchenia	
Metridiochoerus (giant warthog)
Moropus	
Pelorovis (long-horned buffalo)
Sarkastodon (long-tailed bear)
Sivatherium	
Sloth, Ground
Therapsid, Cynodont
Therapsid, Dicynodont
Therapsid, Early
Therapsid, Estemmenosuchus
Turtle, Sea, Giant

These also seem to unconverted, although they are technically D&D variations rather than actual prehistoric creatures:

Agnath, Electric
Amiskwia, Giant
Anomalocaris, Giant
Leanchoilia, Giant
Marrella, Giant
Odontogriphus, Giant
Ottoia, Giant
Sanctacaris, Giant
Therapsid, Giant
Wiwaxia, Giant
Yohoia, Giant


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

The dire hippo in Sandstorm might cover the giant hippo, but other than that, I believe these all remain unconverted.


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## Echohawk (Oct 3, 2008)

Shade said:


> The dire hippo in Sandstorm might cover the giant hippo, but other than that, I believe these all remain unconverted.



Hmmm... based on this discussion, I haven't been treating dire and giant critters as the same. But doing so would eliminate several from the pile. Do you think the dire hippo is particularly close to the giant version?


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

You're right.  I just compared them, and the dire hippo is bigger and has far more HD, and they have a few other differences.  So I'd leave it as unconverted after all.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

Are we waiting until after horror month for Erythrosuchus?


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

freyar said:


> Are we waiting until after horror month for Erythrosuchus?




Not particularly.  I just forgot about it.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

*Erythrosuchus*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: swamps, rivers
FREQUENCY: Rare
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 7d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: L (15'-20'long, 1,000 lbs.)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Erythrosuchus, the "red crocodile" (so-called because the rock formation in which it was found had stained its bones red) is the largest of the predatory thecodonts that stayed on all fours. The creature's skull alone was at least 3' long!

Given its great size and weight, I felt justified in giving it a really nasty bite. Until the dinosaurs get properly established, Erythrosuchus and its kin are the kings of beasts.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #176 (1991).

Erythrosuchus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 9, 2008)

Here's a similar large archosaurmorph I statted up for the Kong project:

NEFUNDUSAURUS
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+21 (52 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+14
Attack: Bite +9 melee (2d8+7)
Full Attack: Bite +9 melee (2d8+7)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Frightful roar, improved grab
Special Qualities: Blindsense 30ft, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +7
Feats: Ability Focus (frightful roar), Alertness, Endurance
Environment: Warm costal and marsh
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8-14 HD (Large), 15-21 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

Combat
Despite their powerful strength, nefundusauruses are cowardly, preferring to end a confrontation with their frightful roar and escaping. Their bite is incredibly powerful, though, capable of tearing through steel.

Frightful Roar (Ex): As a standard action, a nefundusaurus can give a mighty roar. All creatures within 30ft of the roaring nefundusaurus must make a Will save (DC 13) or be frightened for 1 round and shaken for 1d4 rounds after that. On a successful save, the creature is merely shaken for one round.

Now, I think I'd replace Alertness and Endurance with, say, Weapon Focus and Improved Initiative. We'll also want to advance it to 10 HD.


----------



## freyar (Nov 11, 2008)

What about bumping the bite to 3d8 also?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 11, 2008)

Sounds good to me.


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2008)

Do we want to keep the frightful roar? The nefundusaurus was a specialist scavenger and kill-thief that chased other predators away from their food. We might want to give it... improved grab? Worry?


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

Let's drop the roar, I guess.  Imp Grab, Worry, and possibly also Swallow Whole seem like good fits.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2008)

It's not going to be able to swallow much, since it's only Large. We might want to give it a secondary tail attack and tail sweep (the tripping variation seen in Megalania), but that would reduce its bite damage from Str x 1.5


----------



## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

Well, it can swallow Medium things.  That's not too bad.  And it's got the big head!  But the tail attack would be ok instead, if you all prefer.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 13, 2008)

Being Large, it could only Swallow Whole on Small creatures.

Which still might be worth it, what with halflings and gnomes and things.


----------



## freyar (Nov 13, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Being Large, it could only Swallow Whole on Small creatures.
> 
> Which still might be worth it, what with halflings and gnomes and things.



This is weird.  The SRD I'm using says



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Swallow Whole (Ex): If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent held in its mouth (see Improved Grab), it can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. *Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature.* Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.




My bold.  I do think you're right that they often require 2 categories smaller, though.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 13, 2008)

Yeah, I've never seen something without any supernatural abilities able to swallow only one size category smaller. Not once.


----------



## freyar (Nov 13, 2008)

How about Swallow Whole (vs Small and smaller) and a secondary tail slap but no tripping tail sweep?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 13, 2008)

Sounds good to me. Damage on the tail slap? 2d8 is one size higher than 1d12 (the tail slap on a Medium crocodile).


----------



## freyar (Nov 15, 2008)

2d8 sounds fine.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 15, 2008)

So, what feats? Alertness, Endurance Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (bite)? I'm still not that satisfied...


----------



## freyar (Nov 15, 2008)

Would you be more satisfied if we bumped it to 11HD and gave it Imp Crit in place of something?


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2008)

I'd be OK with that.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 20, 2008)

Sounds good to me. Replace Alertness?


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2008)

Yes, I think that's the best choice.


----------



## freyar (Nov 21, 2008)

Works for me, also.


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2008)

Looking good.

In swallow whole: the gizzard AC is 13 (10 + 1/2 natural).  How about 3d8 bludgeoning and 1d8 acid while swallowed?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 22, 2008)

That sounds reasonable.


----------



## freyar (Nov 22, 2008)

In that case, worry damage = bite damage also?  CR 7?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 23, 2008)

Worry = bite is standard. CR 6 or 7. Not quite sure which.


----------



## Shade (Nov 24, 2008)

Updated.

deal x points of damage to the gizzard?

I'm leaning toward CR 7...


----------



## freyar (Nov 24, 2008)

Let's say 15 hp damage to the gizzard and CR 7.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 24, 2008)

I say 20 damage to the gizzard and CR 7


----------



## freyar (Nov 24, 2008)

Works for me if that solidifies the CR a little.


----------



## Shade (Nov 25, 2008)

Updated.  I think all that remains are...

Skills: 13 ranks


----------



## freyar (Nov 25, 2008)

Since we bumped the HD, I think it's 14 ranks.  Let's split between Spot and Listen.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2008)

Agreed, but we could give them a few ranks in Survival so they could track by scent... which means we could give them Scent, either as a bonus feat or to replace Endurance.

Listen 5 ranks, Spot 5 ranks, Survival 4 ranks?


----------



## freyar (Nov 25, 2008)

I like those skills.  Let's do Track as a bonus feat.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 26, 2008)

Yes, yes that is what I meant. Scent as a feat... what was I thinking?


----------



## freyar (Nov 26, 2008)

Don't worry, we could tell what you meant.


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Updated.  

Anyone have any suggestions for additional flavor text?

And don't feel bad, Demiurge...I swear I've seen a Scent feat before somewhere.


----------



## freyar (Dec 1, 2008)

Looks fine to me. I'd say it's done.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

"During the early days of the dinosaurs, they were not actually the dominant life on the planet. Crocodile-like archosaurs such as Erythrosuchus had a wider variety of body plans and were more common. It was mainly by chance that the dinosaurs were able to spread, but in some remote valleys of lost worlds, the crocodilians remain supreme."


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Fantastic!

I'll have to regain my bearings and figure out what's next.  I watched Season 1 of Primeval last week so I've definitely got prehistoric horrors on my mind.


----------



## Echohawk (Dec 2, 2008)

As far as I can tell, here's what's left in the prehistorically-themed bin:

Dragon #112: Rhynchosaur, Cynodont, Dicynodont
Dragon #137: Alticamelus, Gigantopithecus, Astrapotherium, Short-Faced Bear, Deinotherium, Macrauchenia, Ground Sloth, Moropus, Sivatherium
Dragon #167: Agriotherium, Pelorovis, Metridiochoerus, Giant Camel, Dwarf Elephant
Dragon #176: Armored Predatory Fish, Early Therapsid, Giant Therapsid, Estemennosuchus, Electric Agnath
Dragon #204: Amiskwia, Anomalocaris, Leanchoilia, Marrella, Odontogriphus, Ottoia, Sanctacaris, Wiwaxia, Yohoia
Dungeon #56: Giant Hippo
Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two: Giant Sea Turtle


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

Hey, lets tackle some of those therapsids next.  _Primeval_ made good use of a Gorgonopsid in a few episodes.  

Got anything similar from your World of Kong to build from, Demiurge.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Sure thing! In three sizes.

LYCAESAURUS
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Tear fallen +1d6, trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +6, Listen +5, Move Silently +6, Spot +5, Survival +3
Feats: Alertness, Track 
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pair or pack (4-8)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -

A pack of sleek spotted creatures run by, looking like reptilian wolves with prominent canine teeth.

An example of a mammal-like reptile, the lycaesaurus is a cunning scavenger and hunter, filling a niche similar to coyotes found elsewhere. Eating anything smaller than themselves, lycaesauruses prey on lizards, rodents, eggs, birds, small dinosaurs, and carrion. Lycaesauruses mate for life, laying eggs in burrows and caring for their pups with mammalian diligence. Lycaesauruses are known to band together in packs and follow V-rexes and other huge predators, either sneaking in to steal meat from a fresh kill or making off with juveniles disoriented and unprotected amidst the attack.

A lycaesaurus can grow up to five feet long, including a fairly short tail.

Combat
Lycaesauruses are skittish of anything more aggressive or much larger then themselves so are unlikely to bother adventurers unless starving, being more likely to follow adventures and scavenge off of corpses left behind than to attack them. A halfling or gnome in lycaesaur territory would be wise to not get themselves separated from the rest of their party, however. Lycaesauruses attack in coordinated strikes, hoping to pull foes down and tear out their throats.

Tear Fallen (Ex): A lycaesaurus can deal an addition +1d6 points of damage to a prone opponent.

Trip (Ex): A lycaesaurus that hits with a bite attack can attempt to make a trip check (+2 modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attack fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the lycaesaurus.

Skills: A lycaesaurus gains a +4 racial bonus on all Hide and Move Silently checks.

DINOCANISAURUS
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+6 (15 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40ft (8 squares), climb 10ft
Armor Class: 18 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-2
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Swarmfighting
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Climb +9, Listen +5, Move Silently +7, Spot +5, Survival +2
Feats: Alertness, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B) 
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary, pair or pack (4-12)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-5 HD (Small), 6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -

This animal resembles a reptilian bulldog with a crocodile’s hide. Jagged teeth poke out from its mouth, and its short tail wags listlessly behind it.

Consummate pack hunters, dinocanisauruses are relatives of the larger lycaesaurus of the plains – they are both species of cynodonts, mammal-like reptiles that have evolved into canine-like forms. Dinocanisauruses live in the deep forests of Skull Island, having adapted to thick undergrowth and climbing trees, although they are fairly clumsy at the latter. Highly social, dinocanisauruses have a matriarchical pack structure and are fiercely territorial. They are intelligent enough not to bother larger predators, and are in fact preyed upon by venatosauruses.

The largest dinocanisauruses can be as large as wolves, but these specimens are rare. The average dinocanisaurus is a mere three to four feet in length.

Combat
Dinocanisauruses hunt by endurance, chasing prey through the thick forest floor and tiring it, eventually tearing into it with needle-sharp teeth. They are shy around humanoids and generally will not fight them unless threatened or starving.

Swarmfighting (Ex): Dinocanisauruses work well crowded into tight spaces with their packmates. Up to three dinocanisauruses can fight from the same square without penalty, and they gain a +2 morale bonus on all attack rolls when doing so.

Skills: A dinocanisaurus gains a +4 racial bonus on all Move Silently checks.

GLADIODON
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+32 (68 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+15
Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d6+5/19-20x3 plus bleeding wound)
Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d6+5/19-20x3 plus bleeding wound) and 2 claws +6 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, bleeding wound
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +4
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 9
Skills: Balance +4, Hide +1, Listen +4, Move Silently +5, Spot +4, Survival +6
Feats: Stealthy, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Warm mountains
Organization: Solitary, pair or display (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-12 HD (Large), 13-24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This large quadruped blends mammal and reptilian characteristics. Its huge pronounced saber-teeth clearly mark it as a carnivore, and its red stripes and the feathery fin growing from its back give it something of a jaunty air.

Showy mammal-like reptiles related to the wolf-like lycaesaurus of the lowlands, gladiodons specialize in hunting montane carnivores. Voracious predators, they help to keep the populations of arsartis and bidensaurus down. The males and females both have a dorsal fin, which can be filled with blood to make it a vibrant red. The males compete for females with these fins – the male with the largest, brightest fin is most likely to be selected by a female.

Gladiodons have a wide range of body size. The smallest are a mere eight feet in length, but they can grow up to eighteen feet long.

Combat
Gladiodons generally attack from ambush, but they have little fear of the chase. A gladiodon will usually strike once or twice with their massive fangs then retreat, tracking the dying victim by the trail of blood it leaves behind.

Augmented Critical (Ex): The saber teeth of a gladiodon strike with deadly precision. A gladiodon’s bite attack threatens a critical hit on a roll of 19-20 and deals x3 damage on a successful critical hit.

Bleeding Wound (Ex): The saliva of a gladiodon contains a vicious anticoagulant, making even the tiniest nick of its teeth bleed uncontrollably. Any creature bitten by a gladiodon must succeed a DC 17 Fortitude save or continue to bleed, taking one point of damage per round at the beginning of the creature’s turn. A creature that is bitten multiple times and fails multiple Fortitude saves takes damage each round equal to the number of Fortitude saves failed. A DC 20 Heal check or any cure or heal spell ends the effect. Creatures immune to poison are immune to the bleeding wound effect, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus to saving throws.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

Here are the original writeups.

*CYNODONT*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12'
HIT DICE: 1 hp to 4 HD
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil to 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
SIZE: S to M (up to 6' long)

Cynodonts are mammal-like reptiles from Triassic times. They range from mouse-sized up to the size of a large sheep or small bear, and include both carnivores and herbivores. They have a number of mammalian traits, but their front legs retain a sprawling reptilian gait, and they have low flat lizard-like heads and thick reptilian tails. Roth carnivores and herbivores have prominent canine teeth. They have nails, but not hooves or sharp claws.  They may be found singly or in small groups. Though the herbivores seek to avoid encounters, the carnivores may stalk and track prey and even work in groups. Cynodonts vary as shown below:
HD: 1 hp (the rest is missing)
DAMAGE: Nil 1 1-2 1-4 2-5 2-7 2-8
SIZE: S(to 2) S(2½) S(3)

Herbivore cynodonts of a given size are treated as if they were one size class smaller for hit dice and damage (i.e., a 6'-long herbivore has 3 HD).

*DICYNODONT*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-40
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12
HIT DICE: 1 hp to 6HD
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil to 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Trample
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
SIZE: S to L (up to 9' long)

Dicynodonts are mammal-like reptiles from the Triassic. They are herbivores and vary in size from that of a woodchuck to that of a small rhinoceros. These bizarre creatures are bulky, with short, stout limbs, a thick tail, and a barrel-shaped torso. The limbs sprawl out towards the sides rather than being fully tucked under the body, as they are in mammals or dinosaurs.

Dicynodonts have few teeth, or may even be toothless with the exception of a pair of tusks in the upper jaw. The teeth are largely replaced by a horny beak resembling that of a parrot or turtle. The snout is short, and the large eyes face forward. There are no hooves, only large flat claws and stubby toes.  Though small dicynodonts may use their claws to dig, and large ones may rear up and use them to pull down foliage, dicynodonts are not dextrous enough to use their claws in self-defense. Some common sorts of dicynodonts are semiaquatic herbivores, like hippopotami. The shape of the beak varies with the diet, which may include any sort of vegetable matter.

Dicynodonts vary with size as follows:
HIT DICE: to ¼ ½ 1 2 3 4-6
DAMAGE: Nil 1-2 1-4 2-5 2-8 2-12
SIZE: S(to 2) M(3) M(4) M(5) L(6) L(7-9)

Dicynodonts that have tusks do no more damage than those lacking them, since the primary weapon used in biting is the beak.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #112 (1986).

*Therapsids, early*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Forests
FREQUENCY: Common
DIET: Carnivore
ORGANIZATION: Hunting pack
NO. APPEARING: 2d4
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 10
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d4 (bite), or 1d4 (butting)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None (some have poison)
SIZE: S to L (up to 10' long)
MORALE: Unsteady (7)
XP VALUE: 120 (270 for poisonous ones)

These are the mammal-like reptiles of the Permian period, somewhat different from the cynodont and dicynodont that appeared in the Mesozoic era(described in "Dinosaurs," DRAGON issue #112). These early therapsids are a varied group: anteosaurs, titanosuchians, gorgonopsians, and therocephalians. All members of this catchall group have some things in common.

They are still more reptilian than mammalian, meaning they are slower and less efficient than later models. They also have tough reptilian hides instead of the softer skin of mammals; hence their superior armor class. They may have been intelligent enough to hunt in packs; no one knows for sure.

Two of these therapsids are equipped with special attack forms. Anteosaurs have prominent bony eyebrows, giving them a butting attack for 1-4 hp damage that was used for social combat. The gorgonopsians may have been equipped with a poisonous bite (save at +2; the first land-vertebrate poison shouldn't be all that strong). From the outside, these therapsids mostly look alike. They fill up all predator roles where they are dominant, being as varied as lions, tigers, and bears today.

*Therapsid, giant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Forests
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
DIET: Carnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 14
HIT DICE: 8 + 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3d6/1d4/1d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: L (10-12’ long)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 975

This creature didn't really exist, but I thought we ought to have a couple really big natural animals in the Paleozoic even if this one would be more at home in the early Triassic period. Think of this fellow as the culmination of therapsid develop ment: a giant cynodont with fangs and clawed feet. Such a creature would still be driven into extinction by the dinosaurs, either by "wolf packs" of coelurosaurs or by more efficient stalking Teratosauruses. Another competitor is the last creature in this collection (Erythrosuchus).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #176 (1991).


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

It looks like Inostrancevia could qualify for "Giant Therapsid".  We could use gladiodon's stats to build from.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Sounds good!

I don't expect to keep the wounding saliva, but I rather like it. Other options include making it more a bear-like grappler (with Multiattack and Imp. Grab).


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

I like the wounding saliva as well.  I'd be fine with keeping it, although the bear-like grappler might make more sense.

Just for fun, here's a few clips of the gorgonopsid from Primeval.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii_ok3WWg58]YouTube - Future Bat V.S. Gorgonopsid[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLXdQAS4S9g]YouTube - Primeval - Stephen fights the Gorgonopsid[/ame]

And here's one from Walking with Monsters

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbjE_xKXQv8&feature=related]YouTube - Walking With Monsters Part III (1/3)[/ame]  (near the 7 minute mark)


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Not too many bear-style prehistoric creatures, so let's go for that.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I tacked on a worry ability, but if you think that's too much, I'll drop it.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

That looks pretty good! We should change the name of the group (display only works with the originals, since they have the giant fins).


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Would "Gorgonopsid" work?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

No, I mean of the largest of the organization line. Sorry.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Ahh...gotcha.   "Pack"?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

Pack sounds good. And actually, thinking back on it, it would appeal to my evolutionary biologist sense if we _did_ call it "gorgonopsid, Inostrancevia". Therapsid is a paraphyletic clade, because "Therapsidia" includes both gorgonopsids and cynodonts, and cynodonts contain both primitive forms and modern mammals.

Thinking on its environment, the Gladiodon was a montane creature, and I don't think any actual gorogonopsids were. Warm hills and plains, perhaps? If we took it out of the mountains, we might want to work with its skill points a bit, strip out Balance, that sort of thing.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

All sounds good.

Updated.

Move the 3 Balance ranks into Survival?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

Yeah, shifting Balance ranks into Survival sounds good. We should mention their keen sense of smell in their flavor-text, then.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

Ok, you guys have been busy!  Looks pretty good.  How heavy are these things?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

My search has only indicated that it "weighed as much as a large bear".

The brown bear in the MM "weigh more than 1,800 pounds and stand nearly 9 feet tall".

According to Wikipedia, and adult male polar bear weights up to 1,500 pounds and a "typical dire bear is 12 feet long and weighs as much as 8,000 pounds."


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Let's use the polar bear weight.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Updated.

All done?

And I notice we've exceeded 1,000 posts in this thread, so its due for a retirement and a sequel (in case the thousand posts bug still exists).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

I think we're done! And I think it's time for a sequel thread, just to be on the safe side.


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

Works for me...


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

New thread here.


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