# Elements of Magic - House Rules



## Kemrain (Nov 12, 2004)

I've learned my lesson in regards to where to post EoMr material, even if it is House Rules related.  What follows are ideas for Prestige Class abilities or Feats for EoMr characters.  I'm posting them here to not only see if others find them interesting/fair/balanced, but to encourage others to post their ideas in this thread to share them with the community.

Names subject to change, nothing's permanant. As one might guess, I've been working on a Dispel Magic specialist PrC.

Dispelling Ease: When you successfully use Spellcraft to identify a spell being cast, the penalty to Counterspell a spell you do not know the Spell Lists for is -5 instead of -10. If you know some, but not all of the Spell Lists involved, you suffer no penalty instead of -5. If you fail to use Spellcraft to identify the spell, you suffer the full penalty.

Cheater's Break: When Dispelling, each 3 MP spent on Dispel enhancements costs you only 2 MP. You are still limited by your MP Limit normally.

Dispel Master: Prerequisite: Dispel Magic +10 ranks, Dispel Specialist. Using the Dispel Specialist feat costs a Move Action, not a Standard Action. You can cast a spell in the same round as using this ability, but you cannot cast a spell and a quickened spell- use of this ability counts as your Quickened spell per round.

Dispelling Familiarity: When Dispelling a spell containing Nouns or Verbs in which you have Spell Expertise or Spell Mastery you gain a +2/+4 bonus to your Dispel check, respectively. These bonuses do not stack with themselves, Mastery in Evoke and Fire will only give +4.

Overmastery Mastery: Overmastering costs only 5MP instead of 7. In addition, you suffer only a -2 penalty to Dispel checks when Overmastering, not -5.

Overcharged Dispel: When casting Dispel MAgic, and only Dispel Magic, your MP Limit is consitered 2 points higher, however, these points *must* be spent on Dispel Magic enhancements, and not General enhancements.

Deflective Will (bad name) [Su]: Prerequisite: Abjure Force. You gain a Deflection bonus to Armor Class equal to your Charisma Bonus. However, you must keep a reserve of MP equal to the cost of an equally powerful Deflection bonus purchased with Abjure Force to benefit from this ability. - 
+1 bonus = 2MP
+2 bonus = 3MP
+3 bonus = 4MP
+4 bonus = 5MP
+5 bonus = 7MP
+6 bonus = 9MP
+7 bonus = 12MP
+8 bonus = 15MP
+9 bonus = 19MP
(Consitering doubling this cost, it seems too low)

Kinetic Combat: (Not 100% sure about the mechanics of this one, just thought if it.) Prerequisites: Create Force, Move Force, Force Expertise. By combining the Elemental Weapon enhancement of Create Force and the Combat Maneuvers of Move Force, you can create a Telekinetic weapon that deals Elemental Force damage, that you can attack with out to the range of the spell, making as many attacks in a round as you are normally allowed, as if making combat maneuvers.  You get your Inteligence bonus to hit, but no extra damage from the Strength provided by Move Force. This functions as a spell you cast, with general enhancements working normally. Infuse Force can be used to give your Kinetic Weapon an Enhancement bonus to hit and damage.

More will come as I think of it. Please feel free to comment or add your own ideas. I want to see things done with the EoMr system that you couldn't do with standard DnD. We have a wonderful opportunity for creativity here, so don't let Ranger Wickett do all the work!

- Kemrain the Motivated.


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## Verequus (Nov 13, 2004)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I've learned my lesson in regards to where to post EoMr material, even if it is House Rules related.  What follows are ideas for Prestige Class abilities or Feats for EoMr characters.  I'm posting them here to not only see if others find them interesting/fair/balanced, but to encourage others to post their ideas in this thread to share them with the community.
> 
> Names subject to change, nothing's permanant. As one might guess, I've been working on a Dispel Magic specialist PrC.




What I see, that you haven't detailed, at which level the abilities should gained. Also the spell caster progression, BAB, saves, hit die, prerequisites, ... did I forget something? Without this kind of information, a truly fair rating can't be made, so I look for really broken things.



> Dispelling Ease: When you successfully use Spellcraft to identify a spell being cast, the penalty to Counterspell a spell you do not know the Spell Lists for is -5 instead of -10. If you know some, but not all of the Spell Lists involved, you suffer no penalty instead of -5. If you fail to use Spellcraft to identify the spell, you suffer the full penalty.




That is a situational Skill Focus(Dispel Magic) - two of four cases won't have any bonus, for that disadvantage the other two cases get a higher bonus... Did you see thread of BelenUmbra? There he ranted, that he doesn't like situational modifiers, because those complicate the game. He is to certain extent right. I'd make it to a simple Skill Focus feat and that a prerequisite. Your player will be happy.

And compare that to the Epic Skill Focus - 20 ranks in the skill and then you get a +10 as bonus. If you still want a prestige class bonus, then you could make that a higher level ability. A bonus of +5 would be appropriate then - maybe.

Oh, another thought: The spellcraft check is always made, if you dispel something, thus you are giving a bonus to the Overmaster option. If I would be a player, then I'd always try to overmaster the enemies spell, if it is appropriate.



> Cheater's Break: When Dispelling, each 3 MP spent on Dispel enhancements costs you only 2 MP. You are still limited by your MP Limit normally.




This is simple broken. You can buy with 10 MP instead a bonus of +10 a bonus of +15. Essentially, you allow to scale the dispeller mages 1.5 times than other mages and the dispeller mages pay only the same cost as the normal mages. Munchkin alarm.



> Dispel Master: Prerequisite: Dispel Magic +10 ranks, Dispel Specialist. Using the Dispel Specialist feat costs a Move Action, not a Standard Action. You can cast a spell in the same round as using this ability, but you cannot cast a spell and a quickened spell- use of this ability counts as your Quickened spell per round.




Hmm... I make only 5 ft. steps and then I can not only cast my signature spells, but I can dispel others ongoing spells. I don't see a real advancement - this feat seems to be a specialised Quicken Spell, which has an extra prerequisite and cost you move actions and no MPs. I think, this is overpowered.



> Dispelling Familiarity: When Dispelling a spell containing Nouns or Verbs in which you have Spell Expertise or Spell Mastery you gain a +2/+4 bonus to your Dispel check, respectively. These bonuses do not stack with themselves, Mastery in Evoke and Fire will only give +4.




The concept of this feat is a little awkward. Basically, you are giving a synergy bonus, which needs a feat in opposite to other synergy boni and relies on a different concept of eligibility. (BTW, use the terms Action and Effect type - for feats these terms are simply better, because they only have  one distinct meaning.) If I ignore this, then I don't like the following things:

1. It feels strange, because the effectiveness of this feat depends on other circumstances. I don't know, if this is a design flaw or if I aren't accustomed to such a thing.

2. For full effectiveness, you have to go only for Action types - the Effect category can be simply ignored. 66 lists => level 31, bonus for everything.

3. The bonus is too high - instead +2/+4 I would give only +1/+2 - with the additional stacking. This makes Effect Mastery, also viable.

4. Can the spell, which can be dispelled with a bonus, contain additional spell lists, where one doesn't have Spell Expertise/Mastery, in order to receive the bonus? Or is the bonus simply halved, rounded down?



> Overmastery Mastery: Overmastering costs only 5MP instead of 7. In addition, you suffer only a -2 penalty to Dispel checks when Overmastering, not -5.




Hmm, could be balanced, but this is a case for playtesting.



> Overcharged Dispel: When casting Dispel MAgic, and only Dispel Magic, your MP Limit is consitered 2 points higher, however, these points *must* be spent on Dispel Magic enhancements, and not General enhancements.




Isn't this an upped Spell List Familiarity? If this feat isn't upped to a single Action type, then your variant is overpowered. Actually, I feel, this kind of feat would be right for the Magical Skills - and only them, like I feel, that Spell List Familiarity is with the restriction to only one specific spell list too weak.

BTW, "consitering" is spelled "considering". ;-)



> Deflective Will (bad name) [Su]: Prerequisite: Abjure Force. You gain a Deflection bonus to Armor Class equal to your Charisma Bonus. However, you must keep a reserve of MP equal to the cost of an equally powerful Deflection bonus purchased with Abjure Force to benefit from this ability. -
> +1 bonus = 2MP
> +2 bonus = 3MP
> +3 bonus = 4MP
> ...




ARRG! Please, don't use this kind of mechanic. It was bad with 3.0 Psionics and is still bad. You are freezing a certain amount of MP, which give you the permanent effect of a high level spell at low levels. At level 4 you have 26 MP in your pool - if you cast only 7 MP, you have this bonus all the day. This is a must-have feat for every spellcaster, although Mageknights get most out of it. Increasing the needed MP delays only the problem and you will end with Mages, who recalculate constantly their ACs. Use the Major Boon Magical Protection instead, unless RangerWickett comes up with an idea, how to implement the Psionic Focus in Lyceian Arcana. BTW, Ryan, did I ever write you the idea, that I'd like to have feat, which allows to see constantly magical auras? Could be overpowered, but it is so flavorful...



> Kinetic Combat: (Not 100% sure about the mechanics of this one, just thought if it.) Prerequisites: Create Force, Move Force, Force Expertise. By combining the Elemental Weapon enhancement of Create Force and the Combat Maneuvers of Move Force, you can create a Telekinetic weapon that deals Elemental Force damage, that you can attack with out to the range of the spell, making as many attacks in a round as you are normally allowed, as if making combat maneuvers.  You get your Inteligence bonus to hit, but no extra damage from the Strength provided by Move Force. This functions as a spell you cast, with general enhancements working normally. Infuse Force can be used to give your Kinetic Weapon an Enhancement bonus to hit and damage.




 Example, please! I don't look through it. Next, I don't know, what elemental Force damage should be. You seem to overblend to distinct areas, which should remain distinct.



> More will come as I think of it. Please feel free to comment or add your own ideas. I want to see things done with the EoMr system that you couldn't do with standard DnD. We have a wonderful opportunity for creativity here, so don't let Ranger Wickett do all the work!
> 
> - Kemrain the Motivated.




You add always some words, which have a relevance to your post. Do you so it just because of fun?


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## Kemrain (Nov 17, 2004)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> What I see, that you haven't detailed, at which level the abilities should gained. Also the spell caster progression, BAB, saves, hit die, prerequisites, ... did I forget something? Without this kind of information, a truly fair rating can't be made, so I look for really broken things.



 Yeah, I left that out intentionally, because I don't have those things planned out yet. I was looking for a critique of the abilities, and boy did I get one. Thanks!



> That is a situational Skill Focus(Dispel Magic) - two of four cases won't have any bonus, for that disadvantage the other two cases get a higher bonus... Did you see thread of BelenUmbra? There he ranted, that he doesn't like situational modifiers, because those complicate the game. He is to certain extent right. I'd make it to a simple Skill Focus feat and that a prerequisite. Your player will be happy.
> 
> And compare that to the Epic Skill Focus - 20 ranks in the skill and then you get a +10 as bonus. If you still want a prestige class bonus, then you could make that a higher level ability. A bonus of +5 would be appropriate then - maybe.
> 
> Oh, another thought: The spellcraft check is always made, if you dispel something, thus you are giving a bonus to the Overmaster option. If I would be a player, then I'd always try to overmaster the enemies spell, if it is appropriate.



Having just reread the rules of Dispel, I see that you may be right about the situational modifiers thing. The way I understood it was that, if you failed the Spellcraft check you could still Dispel the spell, you just took the -10 'don't know the spell lists involved' penalty by default.  It says, however, that the GM sets the DC in secret, and that modifiers apply, so, I'm a little wrong. I'll be houseruling that in my game, so this ability is just a little more situational (IMC) than the -5 'only know some of the lists involved' penalty. 
Fail Spellcraft check = -10 to Dispel checks.
Made Spellcraft, know no lists involved = -10 penalty (-5 with this ability.)
Made Spellcraft, know at least one list involved = -5 penalty (No penalty with this ability.)
Made Spellcraft, know all lists involved = No penalty.
--- As opposed to EoMr's way ---
Know none of the lists involved = -10 (+10 to the Dispel DC.)
Know some but not all of the lists involved = -5 (+5 to the Dispel DC.)
Know all of the lists involved = No penalty (No DC increase.)

I had thought my mistake was RAW, but it seems I was, um, mistaken. Oh well, like I said, I'm houseruling this, but takign that into account do you still think this is a bad ability?
Good eye, thanks for spotting this.




> This is simple broken. You can buy with 10 MP instead a bonus of +10 a bonus of +15. Essentially, you allow to scale the dispeller mages 1.5 times than other mages and the dispeller mages pay only the same cost as the normal mages. Munchkin alarm.



 This is unbalanced even when you take into account that the bonus MP can't surpass your MP limit? Sure, you can spend 10 MP to get 15, but you still can't cast Dispel MAgic 15/Gen 0 with an MP limit of 10. Plus, any MP spent on General Effects isn't taken into account when calculating the Free MP. A 20th level Mage with this ability could cast Dispel Magic 15/Gen 5 and actually spend 15 MP, because 5 of the Dispel MAgic MP is free.





> Hmm... I make only 5 ft. steps and then I can not only cast my signature spells, but I can dispel others ongoing spells. I don't see a real advancement - this feat seems to be a specialised Quicken Spell, which has an extra prerequisite and cost you move actions and no MPs. I think, this is overpowered.



I figured that, since it's not a free action (but counts as your qickened spell for the round anyways), and can only apply to Dispel MAgic, this ability was fairly balanced against the lack of an MP cost. I wanted the class with this ability to be masters at counterspelling, and being able to counter and cast in a round is a step in that direction. You really think this is overpowered?

- Kemrain the Not-Finished-Replying-Yet.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 17, 2004)

> Matched Spell Lists:  If you succeeded a Spellcraft check to identify the effect, and you know all the spell lists used in the spell, you suffer no penalty.  If the spell uses multiple lists and you know at least one (but not all of them), increase the DC by 5.  If you do not know any of the spell lists used, or if you failed your Spellcraft check, increase the DC by 10.  For skills, if you have at least 1 rank in a magical skill that is being used in the targeted spell, you are considered to ‘know’ that skill.




Is that what is being debated?


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## Kemrain (Nov 17, 2004)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> The concept of this feat is a little awkward. Basically, you are giving a synergy bonus, which needs a feat in opposite to other synergy boni and relies on a different concept of eligibility. (BTW, use the terms Action and Effect type - for feats these terms are simply better, because they only have  one distinct meaning.) If I ignore this, then I don't like the following things:
> 
> 1. It feels strange, because the effectiveness of this feat depends on other circumstances. I don't know, if this is a design flaw or if I aren't accustomed to such a thing.
> 
> ...



1. That was a purposful design choice. Some abilities are simply more valuable to some characters than others. I wanted to encourage Spell Mastery without requiring it, and giving a bonus like this is, I thought, a decent way of pulling it off.
2. Does a +4 bonus to Dispel Magic at 31st level seem too much to you?
3. I don't understand what you're saying here, sorry.
4. Absolutely! If you have Fire Mastery and you're dispelling an Evoke Fire/Evoke Death, you get the +4 bonus, however, if you have Evoke MAstery as well, the bonuses overlap.



> Isn't this an upped Spell List Familiarity? If this feat isn't upped to a single Action type, then your variant is overpowered. Actually, I feel, this kind of feat would be right for the Magical Skills - and only them, like I feel, that Spell List Familiarity is with the restriction to only one specific spell list too weak.



This isn't the same as Spell List Familiarity because the extra MP isn't free. With the aformentioned feat, you got a free bonus MP, but with this ability, you're simply raising the cap on the ammount of MP you can put into the spell. If your normal MP limit is 5, you could concievably cast Dispel Magic 2/Gen 5, and pay 7 MP to cast it.



> BTW, "consitering" is spelled "considering". ;-)



Spelling Nazi! Heh.





> ARRG! Please, don't use this kind of mechanic. It was bad with 3.0 Psionics and is still bad. You are freezing a certain amount of MP, which give you the permanent effect of a high level spell at low levels. At level 4 you have 26 MP in your pool - if you cast only 7 MP, you have this bonus all the day. This is a must-have feat for every spellcaster, although Mageknights get most out of it. Increasing the needed MP delays only the problem and you will end with Mages, who recalculate constantly their ACs. Use the Major Boon Magical Protection instead, unless RangerWickett comes up with an idea, how to implement the Psionic Focus in Lyceian Arcana. BTW, Ryan, did I ever write you the idea, that I'd like to have feat, which allows to see constantly magical auras? Could be overpowered, but it is so flavorful...



I take it you, don't like this idea? It was just an idea I was kicking around. I figure I'll just give it at first level, but cap the bonus at class level, encouraging you to take multiple levels of the class. Blah.





> Example, please! I don't look through it. Next, I don't know, what elemental Force damage should be. You seem to overblend to distinct areas, which should remain distinct.



I'm a little confused, too. I've been working on revising this ability, and I thnk I might be able to example it to be clearer.

This ability lets you combine 2 spell lists in a way you couldn't have normally done. With this ability, Kalron (Mage 26), can cast Create Force 5/Infuse Force 5/Move Force 6/Gen 10 (8MP 1 day Duration, 2 MP 150 ft. Range) to create not only a Telekinetic force that can Bullruch/Grapple/Disarm/Trip any target in range with a strength of 40 in place of Kalron's regular attacks, or 
move Gargantuan objects of upto 400,000 lbs. weight 30 ft. a round, but make attacks with the Elemental Weapon enhancement of Create Force, enhanced by the Infuse Force enhance attack enhancement , to deal 3d6+5 points of Force damage and attack at BAB + 5 + Int Bonus as a Ranged Touch attack, in place of his regular attacks. (That's a long sentance, sorry.) Given that on a Full Attack Kalron makes 2 attacks, he could make 2 force attacks, or slap with his staff and one force attack, or force disarm and force attack, or any combination of attacks.  The force weapon looks how it's caster chooses, and can be directed purely mentally, but provokes an attack of opportunity as if you fired a ranged weapon.
Alternately, for fewer MP, you could simply cast Create Force 1/Infuse Force 1/Move Force 1/ Gen 1, and have a directable firce weapon that deals 1d6+1 Force damage, has an effective Str of 8, and can move upto Small objects. The Strength of the Move Force isn't part of the Create Force damage calculation.
Does this make any sense at all? I sure hope so!



> You add always some words, which have a relevance to your post. Do you so it just because of fun?




You mean the

- Kemrain the Clever.

thing?

It's my schtick. I can't (read: won't) use a .sig, so this is my goofy little creative outlet in that vein, which I use to make a name for myself. In 500+ posts, you're one of the less than 10 to have mentioned it. w00t.

- Kemrain the Pleased to be Noticed.


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## Kemrain (Nov 17, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Is that what is being debated?



Um... Yes. That. Thought I was right! That'll teach *me* to reread...

- Kemrain the DUMB!


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## Kemrain (Nov 18, 2004)

Ranger Wickett, could you clarafy what Move Force does? When I cast Move Force 6, and can move Gargantuan objects of upto 400,000 lbs at a base speed of 30, and use ranged combat maneuvers at my BAB + 40 Str, I can do both of these with one signature spell? Can I Hustle or Run the objects I'm moving, provided I stay within the range of the spell? Can I hold an object in place while grappling someone else? How many things can I do at once? Could I grapple 2 foes simultaniously at 2 different points on the battlefield? With the Move Object part of Move Force, can I attack with one of those objects? Dropping it on somebody, sure, but could I swing a Greatsword? Surely that's less dificult than tying shoes with invisible hands you can't feel.

 Hmm, with tactile scrying thrown in, could I get a bonus to performing manual tasks with Move Force?

 - Kemrain the Forcefully Moved.


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## Kemrain (Nov 19, 2004)

How unbalanced would it be for an ability to make a multiclass Mage's Caster Level be equal to his Character Level?  All Caster Level affects is Dispel Magic DC's and Caster Level Checks, right?  I'm not talking about giving out full levels of casting progression, just a bonus to Caster Level to bring it up to Character Level, sort of like what Practiced Spellcaster does in Core DnD.  Since spells aren't tied to Caster Level anymore, and scale with MP, increased Caster Level isn't as big a deal, is it?  C'mon, tell me I'm wrong!

- Kemrain the Challenging.


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## Verequus (Nov 23, 2004)

Sorry for the delay - RL issues.



			
				Kemrain said:
			
		

> Having just reread the rules of Dispel, I see that you may be right about the situational modifiers thing. The way I understood it was that, if you failed the Spellcraft check you could still Dispel the spell, you just took the -10 'don't know the spell lists involved' penalty by default.  It says, however, that the GM sets the DC in secret, and that modifiers apply, so, I'm a little wrong. I'll be houseruling that in my game, so this ability is just a little more situational (IMC) than the -5 'only know some of the lists involved' penalty.
> Fail Spellcraft check = -10 to Dispel checks.
> Made Spellcraft, know no lists involved = -10 penalty (-5 with this ability.)
> Made Spellcraft, know at least one list involved = -5 penalty (No penalty with this ability.)
> ...




Taking RangerWickett's post into account, you are still behind that, what you've written above? I'm a bit confused in that regard. My original comment was correct to the RAW, so I don't see, what should change my opinion anyways. Could you enlighten me, what I seem to overlook?



> This is unbalanced even when you take into account that the bonus MP can't surpass your MP limit? Sure, you can spend 10 MP to get 15, but you still can't cast Dispel MAgic 15/Gen 0 with an MP limit of 10. Plus, any MP spent on General Effects isn't taken into account when calculating the Free MP. A 20th level Mage with this ability could cast Dispel Magic 15/Gen 5 and actually spend 15 MP, because 5 of the Dispel MAgic MP is free.




A 20th level Mage wouldn't cast Dispel Magic 15/Gen 5, he would add any enhancement with a cost of 5 MP, effectively casting a spell worth an equivalent of 25 MP for only 20 MP. Even if you limit the use, that the bonus MP are counted to the overall MP limit (kinda "you pay still the full amount, but get a small part of it back"), a player could demand a feat, which allow the same for a Evoke spell list. Evoke Fire 18/Gen 2 for 14 MP - something everyone wants to have and thus it is TOO GOOD! And lastly, compare it to Spell List Familiarity - your feat scales, SLF doesn't. Yes, I think SLF is underpowered, but only because it can be applied to only one specific spell list, not an entire action type. The actual benefit seems fine.



> I figured that, since it's not a free action (but counts as your qickened spell for the round anyways), and can only apply to Dispel MAgic, this ability was fairly balanced against the lack of an MP cost. I wanted the class with this ability to be masters at counterspelling, and being able to counter and cast in a round is a step in that direction. You really think this is overpowered?




Basically, with this feat you are trampling on to other paths - Quicken Spell and Move Time. Did you look up, how many MP the quickening of an signature spell costs? 7 MP. Everytime, you can use the feat, you are saving 7 MP. What are you paying? A move-action. With Move Time, you can gain the effect of Haste for 4 MP, then for a duration of 10 minutes you need 1 extra MP. 5 MP once for every battle, saving zig-times 7 MP at practically no cost and some player could argument, that under Haste he could surely use a quickened spell. Even if you decline it for this Haste variant, wait until the players are high enough for the über-3.0 variant...

Disclaimer: If something in the above paragraph is rules-wise wrong, then because I couldn't look the rules up at the time of writing. But I still stand with my arguments - no possible error can invalidate them entirely.



> 1. That was a purposful design choice. Some abilities are simply more valuable to some characters than others. I wanted to encourage Spell Mastery without requiring it, and giving a bonus like this is, I thought, a decent way of pulling it off.




I forgot, that Arcane Mastery(?), the last of the three feats regarding "making spellbooks like scrolls" is too weak as written (comparing all three feats, I think of Arcane Mastery as a waste, but I would take the other two within a heart-beat). An additional bonus like you propose for every Specialist feat (whatever the effect would be), if someone has both the Specialist feat and the Arcane Mastery feat, would make this feat chain far more interesting.



> 2. Does a +4 bonus to Dispel Magic at 31st level seem too much to you?




No.



> 3. I don't understand what you're saying here, sorry.




If you don't allow the stacking of the various Action and Effect Masteries, then a powergamer will look, where he has to invest the least to get the most out of his buck, which equals a generic +4 bonus to Dispel Magic. There are 11 Action Masteries and 22 + 15 + 5 = 42 Effect Masteries - which route would you take? My advice is, to allow the stacking and halving the gained boni. This wouldn't devalue Effect Masteries, which are already slightly weaker (there is nothing like Charm/Compel Experts for Effects).



> 4. Absolutely! If you have Fire Mastery and you're dispelling an Evoke Fire/Evoke Death, you get the +4 bonus, however, if you have Evoke MAstery as well, the bonuses overlap.




I don't like this. For example, someone attacks you with an Evoke [Element] 1 with all elements combined, except [Fire], for an overall MP amount of 22 (1 MP is for general). Now substitute the last MP for Evoke Fire and then you gain the full bonus? Nah... Half the bonus like the penalty for Dispel Magic, if you know some of the spell lists used.



> This isn't the same as Spell List Familiarity because the extra MP isn't free. With the aformentioned feat, you got a free bonus MP, but with this ability, you're simply raising the cap on the amount of MP you can put into the spell. If your normal MP limit is 5, you could concievably cast Dispel Magic 2/Gen 5, and pay 7 MP to cast it.




I have to admit, that I don't know if this kind a feat is overpowered or not, even if you wouldn't need to pay the 2 MP. Playtesting calls.



> I take it you, don't like this idea? It was just an idea I was kicking around. I figure I'll just give it at first level, but cap the bonus at class level, encouraging you to take multiple levels of the class. Blah.




How could you tell that from my subtly formulation?  Show me the next incarnation, before I put it to rest. 



> I'm a little confused, too. I've been working on revising this ability, and I thnk I might be able to example it to be clearer.
> 
> This ability lets you combine 2 spell lists in a way you couldn't have normally done. With this ability, Kalron (Mage 26), can cast Create Force 5/Infuse Force 5/Move Force 6/Gen 10 (8MP 1 day Duration, 2 MP 150 ft. Range) to create not only a Telekinetic force that can Bullruch/Grapple/Disarm/Trip any target in range with a strength of 40 in place of Kalron's regular attacks, or
> move Gargantuan objects of upto 400,000 lbs. weight 30 ft. a round, but make attacks with the Elemental Weapon enhancement of Create Force, enhanced by the Infuse Force enhance attack enhancement , to deal 3d6+5 points of Force damage and attack at BAB + 5 + Int Bonus as a Ranged Touch attack, in place of his regular attacks. (That's a long sentance, sorry.) Given that on a Full Attack Kalron makes 2 attacks, he could make 2 force attacks, or slap with his staff and one force attack, or force disarm and force attack, or any combination of attacks.  The force weapon looks how it's caster chooses, and can be directed purely mentally, but provokes an attack of opportunity as if you fired a ranged weapon.
> ...




Like you posted above, I think, it should be a general ability directly tied in the rules.


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## Kemrain (Dec 9, 2004)

It's time to explain some of my ideas again, and this time, in better detail. To have them make more sense, I'll elaborate, use some fluff, and  hopefully justify my ideas a bit better.

Dispelling Ease:

Magic is universal. Like the laws of physics, it's the same wherever you go.  However you modify it, it's fundimentally the same.  Certain Mages, specialized in the breaking of spells, have learned the laws of magic and the knowledge of how to turn those laws against other spellcasters.

When Counterspelling, a Mage with this ability who succedes on her Spellcraft check to identify the spell she wishes to counter suffers no increase in the Dispel DC for only knowing some of the Spell Lists involved.  Her understanding of magic is such that she can use her mastery of the laws of Magic to bring the spell down, even with exotic components she doesn't fully understand.
In addition, when she succedes on her Spellcraft check, but knows none of the Spell Lists involced, she suffers only a +5 to the Dispel DC, because she can apply her general understanding of magic to bring the spell down by countering the magical forms it's required to utelize to work.
If she fails her Spellcraft check, she can still try to counter her opponent's spell, but she can't apply her knowledge of Magical principles because she can't see which laws the spell is utelizing.

No penalty if you make your Spellcraft check and know some of the lists, +5 to the DC if you don't know any but succede on your Spellcraft check, and +10 to the DC if you fail your Spellcraft check, as normal.

This ability is designed to make counterspelling difficult spells easier, but not make the easy-to-dispel spells any simpler. It fits d20's paradigm of reducing a penalty giving a larger boost than adding a bonus. It's situational, but no more situational than the Dispel rules as written, and it's never more than an effective +5 to Dispel checks.

- Kemrain the Easy.

More to follow...

- Kemrain the Thorough.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Dec 20, 2004)

No comments on the mechanics, but I've always loved your "Kemrain the X" thing.


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