# Dual wielding shield Fighter



## Beautiful-Decay (Dec 10, 2010)

Hello everyone. I'm seeking a few advices in D&D 3.5

I've discusses a little with some friends of mine, about the shield bonus when calculating AC. Player's Handbook discribes Shield Bonus "The shield bonus from a shield dosen't stack with other effects that grants a shield bonus, such as shield spell" - Yes ofc' I see that meaning in this; you can't cast a spell that provides a shield when you already have one? But wearing two shields should stack? atleast cover something. - How bad you might be at covering you with a shield it stills cover some % of your body?

So my question is, what would you do/say to this; A fighter wearing two shields gets more AC? or cover (something?) or would you deny him more AC. 

Another question related to this discussion is Spikes. If I've understood DM's Guide well... Magic items have somekind of "maximum slots" available for enchanting (like Bashing, Returning, Thowing and +X etc) Since spikes on a shield is discribed as a weapon "not linked" to the shields original slots but yet melted together, can I enchant my spikes with "Returning Enchant" and make my spikes return to me when I throw my shield? If I throw my spikes away I guess my shield flies with it, since they are linked together? so can I spare slots that way for my shield enchants?

Last question; what's the penalty for Shield Bash with a large shield while being medium size? I wan't as much damage as I'm able to get with shieldbash via. PHB, DM's Guide I and MM I. 

Any suggestions to how to build this character atm I've done him like this (can still be edited); Half orc, Stats 21 str, dex 16, int 13, Wis 8, Cha 6. Bought two Large Heavy Steel Spiked Shields and thought about the feats;
Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Shield Bash, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus (Heavy Steel Spiked Shields) (fighter lvl 4.) to gain acces to Weapon Specialization.


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## Sekhmet (Dec 11, 2010)

As the DM, I'd allow TWF with Shields to provide both shield's AC adjustment regularly with both shield's penalty adjustments. IE: Two Heavy Steel Shields would give 4 AC, -4 Armor Penalty, 30% Arcane Spell Failure, etc. 

 However, remember that you lose AC bonus from shields when you Shield Bash with them, without the Imp. Shield Bash feat.

 Cover is far too impressive to be granted simply by wearing two shields, unless you somehow manage to wear two Tower Shields simultaneously.

 Shield Spikes stack with a Shield's total modifier level, of which most items can only reach +10. 
 You cannot put Returning on a weapon that is not a ranged weapon (ie: has no range increment).

 Shield Bashing is considered an off-hand melee attack, and you only lose the AC bonus from your shield for the round that you use a Bash attack; unless you have Improved Shield Bash, in which case there is no penalty.


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## DumbPaladin (Dec 11, 2010)

Sekhmet might allow the shield bonuses to stack, but I would not.

Asking for two shield bonuses (because you use two shields) sounds just as wrong and in violation of RAW as wearing two suits of armor (and gaining two armor bonuses) or wearing two rings of deflection +5 (and gaining both deflection bonuses) or casting two 11th level resist energy (fire) spells (and gaining resist fire 60) or any other "stacking" of the exact same effect.

I'd give such a person 1 shield bonus.  I would highly recommend against them trying to create such a character.  Weapons do more damage than and can more efficiently kill monsters than shields, anyway.


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## Dandu (Dec 11, 2010)

Shield bonus does not stack by RAW. Period.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 11, 2010)

I made a bodyguard once, a fighter/mage type that used two shields, he was very flavorful, a fun character.  You can't get the shield bonus to AC twice, *however* depending on your allowed books/sources, there are a significant number of feats/maneuvers/teamwork benefits/etc... that require you to forfeit a shield's bonus to AC for the round for some other effect (usually protecting an ally; did I mention this was a bodyguard character yet?).  So you CAN use those things and still retain your other shield's AC bonus for yourself.  It's a perfectly legal and interesting tactic.

Also notable is that you can divvy up shield enhancements between the two, or have one for "pure AC" (upgrade immediately to +5 without any special properties at all, except Bashing, which is just plain made of win and should go on both) and the other a +1 shield loaded with properties like Fortification, Reflecting, etc... Using the former shield for the AC bonus and the latter as extra boons, of course.


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## Beautiful-Decay (Dec 11, 2010)

- Thanks for all your answars so far! 

My idea was to buy two Large Heavy Steel Spiked Shields, while being medium size to get the look-a-like two Tower Shields (which was why I suggested the ability "Cover") I didn't wan't to wear tower shields 'cause of their penalty "can't bash with these kind of shields." And ofc' the penalties towards Armor Check-penalty should stack, spell failure % etc.

But yes, the "Buff Shield" (Tower Shield for +4 AC) and the "Damage Shield" (Heavy Steel Spiked Shield +2 AC) atm. I'm only level 4. So I guess a Tower Shield to give AC is fine so far (since I didn't have place for TWF yet.) And then ofc' the feat; Improved Shield Bash would be waste since the Tower Shield would apply to defense while the "Damage Shield" made it's attack. That could remove a feat and be a place for another.

Ranged Attacks; The "Damage Shield needs the following enchantments; "Throwing, Returning & Bashing." then ofc the +5 attack/hit bonus. (then it's +10.) Combined with my feats this shield would be able to "fly and return to me in one round up to 60 ft. (20 ft. is "normal if I remember right", +10 for throwing enchantment, and x2 for Far Shot." This combination makes it a 60 ft. flying bashing shield of 3d6+Str. (combined with an acces to enlarge could make it 4d6+Str ofc. - So I'm looking into that, to make it as cheap as possible.)

(1d4 is a medium sized shields damage, these are large sized; 1d6. + spikes; 1d8. + Bashing; 3d6. (+ enlarge 4d6 though.)

Any suggestions and advices.


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## DumbPaladin (Dec 11, 2010)

Your idea doesn't work under the D&D 3.5 edition rules, so I have no suggestion.

If your homebrew game allows changing of rules as you & the DM see fit, then I'd say you don't really need anyone's advice; do what you want to do.  If you're wanting to follow the Player's Handbook as written, then it's a no go.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 11, 2010)

The PHB2 has a couple feats related to ranged shield attacks, look for "Sling Shield."  Might be useful, rather than spending all that money on upgrades.  Also look at Bloodstorm Blade prestige class in Tome of Battle.  With 4 levels in it, you can the ability to throw any melee weapon with a 10 ft range increment without penalty, and can ricochet it back and forth such that you get the weapon back in your hand immediately after each attack (so you can full attack with the same weapon).  Much more efficient than Throwing and Returning properties.

From there, you can find ways to improve the range increment.  Gauntlets of Extended Range in the Magic Item Compendium are only a few thousand gp and double your range increments with thrown weapons.  You might also want a lesser weapon crystal of return (also in MIC) for the throwing shield pre-Bloodstorm Blade 4.  For a trivial amount of money, you attach that to the weapon and it can now be drawn as a free action and you can expend a move action to call it back to your hand from up to 30 ft away, very handy for a thrower build.  (For your defense shield, I recommend the shield crystal of arrow protection from MIC, for a bonus against all ranged attacks including ranged touch).

Good luck on the captain america build!

Other random advice:
Don't use a tower shield.  The penalties are annoying and with the right feat selection, you'll benefit heavily from using the same shield in each hand.  My character used two (mithral, cause he was a caster) heavy shields with the Agile Shield Fighter feat from PHB2.  It's just like TWF, but for shields only, no insane dex requirement, and it lets you use a heavy shield in the offhand without additional penalty (since it's normally a one handed weapon).

The Devoted Spirit discipline in Tome of Battle has two maneuvers that are awesome for shield users.  It's only available to Crusaders, but you can use feats and devoted spirit amulet to get access.  At level 2 you have Shield Block, an immediate action to give an adjacent ally your shield AC bonus +4, which stacks with any shield bonus s/he has.  This is easy to get and you should go for it.  At level 7 (unlikely you'll ever get it, it's so high) there's another one, Shield Counter (I think it's called).  Works just like block, except this time you get an immediate action attack with the shield at a -2 penalty.  If you hit, you do damage as normal and automatically disrupt the attack.

PHB2 has the Wall of Steel teamwork benefit, which is also viewable on page 83 of this pdf.  You don't need a tower shield equipped to use it, just proficiency in them (ie, a fighter level).  As a swift action, you give someone your shield's AC bonus for the round, and it stacks with any he already has.  I think PHB2 also explains teamwork benefits if you haven't heard of them before.  They're basically freebies a group can get every 4 levels that rely on synchronization or teamwork in some fashion, I love them.  That page and the PHB2 also has "Team Shield Maneuver" which could be a life-saver in the right situation, but maybe not as important.

PHB2 has Shield Specialization feat for +1 to your shield AC (which also helps when you're applying it to others) and Shield Ward, which makes your shield AC apply against touch attacks and as a bonus on your defense against various maneuvers.  I highly recommend these feats.

I guess in conclusion, PHB2, Tome of Battle, and Magic Item Compendium are by far and away the most useful sourcebooks for you.


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## Beautiful-Decay (Dec 11, 2010)

I can't use anything that isn't in the following books; PHB1, MM1 and DM's Guide 1. 

- Why dosen't the build work? DumbPaladin.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 11, 2010)

Beautiful-Decay said:


> I can't use anything that isn't in the following books; PHB1, MM1 and DM's Guide 1.




Then make another build.  Sorry to be mean, but even with those books (PHB2, MIC, ToB), it's still an underpowered build that's directly going against system norms and expectations.  Without those books, a dual shield user, and especially a THROWN shield user is just a joke character.  Be a cleric with the Quickdraw feat that just carries around a crapload of shields to chuck and eat the -4 improvised weapon attack penalty if you must, but no matter what you build, any serious analysis of attack and damage probablity would tell you that even if you sank every possible monetary and feat resource you could into throwing shields, you'd be better off hitting someone with a sword in almost any scenario.


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## Beautiful-Decay (Dec 11, 2010)

I must admit I really are "in to" the shield-build. But a cleric, hmm... I could ofc' make a magic domain cleric to gain acces to Spectral Hand. Buy a Tower Shield and let my Spectral hand deliever my Conflict/heal Touch spells while I "Cover." Then I could make the other domain Animal and wait until level 9 = Shapechange dip one level of Wizard and shapechange me and a familiar into... somekind of Dragons? (If I wanna be OP ofc.)

The spectral hand/cover combo seems nice and unseen before. (which is what I like about it.)

(Though I'm still looking into the two shields ) while I think about the cleric.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 11, 2010)

If you use a tower shield you'll need a feat on proficiency or a fighter level dip, keep in mind.

And if you're not starting at level ~12+, don't have high hopes of ever reaching 9th level spells and making decisions based on that expectation.  Again, sorry to burst your bubble.


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## Beautiful-Decay (Dec 11, 2010)

No need to be sorry. ^_^

I'm only trying to build something good and unpredictable by normal players, something... "not straight forward " if you know what I mean. 

- Any suggestions then :b


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 11, 2010)

Other than putting Symbol spells on your shield, I'm not sure there's many unexpected/unique things you can do with one in the core rules.  You've got like...one feat relating to shields beyond proficiency, Imp. Shield Bash.  No class feature at all that adds some function or feature to their use.  Not a single spell I can think of that specifically boosts a shield's abilities...

Some convuluted system of throwing weapons + switching the shield on and off via a glove of storing, maybe?


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## Beautiful-Decay (Dec 11, 2010)

You amazes me.  You seems to find some combinations that I've haven't found. And you did it extremely fast, been around D&D alot I guess.  anyway, thanks so far. 

If you come up with anything else, your welcome (related to the cleric or Fighter). ^^ 

- Was the cleric a /spectral hand -conflict wound/heal a bad idea?

Somekind of Spells to trigger Sneak attack could be new too? :b

(it seems hard to make something special with 3 books though x_X')

The glove seems funny, though I can't seem to find a way to abuse it...

Though the restrictions for how to activate the symbols could be hard, though Alightment; Evil? would might trigger on alot as the shield was throw'd at them (enters their square), right?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 11, 2010)

No problem.

"- Was the cleric a /spectral hand -conflict wound/heal a bad idea?"

It's fine.  Just keep in mind the spell level limits on what you can deliver with Spectral Hand and its fragility.  If you want to tank up and have spells fight for you, also look at Spiritual Weapon and summoning spells.

"Somekind of Spells to trigger Sneak attack could be new too? :b"

Sneak Attack is a great way to make an innocuous looking object into a dangerous weapon.  Unfortunately, rogues already have a hitting problem with medium BAB and multiple ability dependency, so eating the penalty for improvised weapons would make it tough to have a realistic chance of hitting anything.

As for spells, there are weapon-like spells (any melee or ranged touch spell that requires a d20 attack roll), those all can apply sneak attack if they do damage.  Ray of Enfeeblement, for example, inflicts a strength penalty but doesn't do damage of any sort, so sneak attack wouldn't apply with that.  There are also spells to make the conditions for sneak attack possible.  You could go invisible or blind the enemy (functionally about the same effect).  You could grease the floor under him, since anyone w/o 5 balance ranks (99% of all people) loses dex to AC while balancing.  And so forth.

"(it seems hard to make something special with 3 books though x_X')"

Yes, it is.  The thing is you're basically limited to the sections of the PHB your class takes up, maybe some spells text and  combat maneuver text.  DMG has magic items and prestige classes and not much else of note for a PC.  The way to get the most out of core is to be a druid, so you can weild the might of the monster manual for your wildshaping and animal companion; or any spellcaster in general with summoning (which druids are also good at).

"The glove seems funny, though I can't seem to find a way to abuse it..."

It's an interesting item, but I don't really spend a lot of time trying to find incredibly game breaking applications or loop-holes, so I also have no idea what crazy stuff could be done with it.  Out of core, they're probably very disgusting to use with Iajutsu Focus (a samurai skill to do extra damage if you draw and strike w/ a weapon against a flotfooted enemy), if coming out of the glove counts.  One potential use for the gloves that's not overpowered but also interesting is dual wielding crossbows with two gloves of storing.  Normally, you need both hands to reload a crossbow, even if reloading's a free action, making it difficult to be a total badass with two of them on semi-auto.   With gloves of storing, you could free action store one, load the other, free action store that one, free action unstore and reload the first...
Oh!  Glove of storing might also be useful to store an item shruken with the Shrink Item spell to set up shenanigans.  I'm not well versed on Shrink Item craziness, but I'm sure you could find threads on it for ideas.

"Though the restrictions for how to activate the symbols could be hard, though Alightment; Evil? would might trigger on alot as the shield was throw'd at them (enters their square), right?"

My mental image was actually wrapping the tower shield in fine cloth and walking around like that.  Then, when you encounter people you don't like, pull on some fancy rope (the thick ones with dangly threads on the end that expensive curtains sometimes have) to remove the cloth and expose the symbol.


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 12, 2010)

Beautiful-Decay said:


> Any suggestions to how to build this character atm I've done him like this (can still be edited); Half orc, Stats 21 str, dex 16, int 13, Wis 8, Cha 6.



Lower both his Intelligence and Wisdom below 6. Now he is ready to wield two shields at the same time (and no offensive weapon).


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## Beautiful-Decay (Dec 12, 2010)

- Sneak attacks with spells and the rogue's small BAB dosen't matter? - if only damage counts; Magic missile should do the trick, after all - It always hits (and damages -> triggers sneak attack right)?

- A machine gun like character with gloves of storing, sounds very tempting!  though I might need to calculate alot of "how much damage I would be able to deal a turn, to figure out if it's nice :b" -> does the glove give me the opputunity to attack with both crossbows in one round or? (alot happend in your last post, was a little confused, sorry xD)


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 12, 2010)

Sneak attacks work with any weapon-like spell.  As I said, that's spells that require an attack roll to hit, and can auto-hit or miss on a roll of 20 or 1.  The spell also has to actually deal damage of some sort, if no damage is dealt, then you can't sneak attack with it.

As for the glove of storing dual crossbows idea, I also rather like it.  For something like that you'd want rogue levels or a prestige class with sneak attack to make the damage more significant.  I was actually thinking how awesome it would be, depending on DM permission and how high he sets the DCs, to do the dual crossbow thing without gloves of storing.  Instead using Perform (juggle) or Sleight of Hand.  You flip one crossbow up, rotating through the air; reload and fire the other then flip it up in the air; catch the first one, reload and shoot it, flip it up in the air...  Could do it as a rogue and sneak attack on all the shots, that'd possibly be effective.  If you could use other books, it'd be best with a bard, but in core not nearly as much so.

In any case, figure out what you want to play so you can start creating the character.


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## Beautiful-Decay (Dec 12, 2010)

Smiles. Alot of restrictions have 'caused my shield-fighter to be a proxy character which I build on if I fail to make the "machine-gun" character. So any advices to what to start with, I guess Rogue-levels is required ofc. I will ofc' be reading a little in the books myself for more info and combinations in feats etc. But I'll ask you anyway (since you came up with alot of combinations I've never thought of; if you find any conclusion or new combination linked towards the machine-gun project please just make a post in this thread and I'll look it up right away 

Bard only seems to provide us with (ofc, buffs) but most of all Haste seems to fit the "speed-core" of the build theme.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 12, 2010)

Bard would be useful as a damage dealer if you had more books.  There's a TON of things to increase the Inspire Courage amount out there.  And the Dragonfire Inspiration feat, to turn your +X inspire courage into +Xd6 energy damage.  Which in turn would make for an effective bard archer.

You only have core though, so rogue's the best bet for 2 crossbows.  In general two weapon fighting only works if you have a large bonus damage source to apply to each attack, like sneak attack.  Otherwise, the base damage can't keep up with a power attacking greatsword, etc...

What level are you starting at?  Two gloves of storing is 20,000 gp, and the feats you'll want are pretty daunting, too.  Though you can certainly start your career only using one ranged weapon and switch to 2 crossbows once you have enough feats and the gloves to make it work.

Feats list:
Point Blank Shot - Needed for most everything else, sadly.
Rapid Shot - The reason to be an archer
Precise Shot - Melee happens very quickly
Rapid Reload (light crossbow) - Until you can dual wield them, you don't really need this feat.  Especially if you dip Fighter or Ranger, use a longbow until you can do so, it's more efficient.
TWF - Similar to Rapid Reload, don't need this feat at the early levels.
Improved/Greater TWF - Useful eventually, don't worry about taking them the instant you qualify; at that moment your attack bonus with the attack these grant is so low it's unlikely to help much.

For race...play something with darkvision or at least low-light.  Sneak Attack is hosed by concealment, dim lighting provides concealment, and night time environments without torches or lanterns (a situation you as a rogue may very well be in often) is at best dim lighting, at worst total darkness.  If the DM limits you to PHB races, Dwarf is a solid choice, gnome is ok.  If you can use the Monster Manual variants...
Wood Elf: +2 Str and Dex, -2 Int and Con is a pretty solid base for archery and you get low-light vision and Ranger as favored class.
Forrest Gnome: Possibly the best race in core (or very close to human and dwarf).  Literally just plain better than standard gnomes withut any drawbacks.  All the gnome goodies (small size, darkvision, and spell-like abilities, namely) plus a constant Pass without trace and racial hide bonus to help with sneaking.  Only thing is, make sure you have at least 12 int to pick common as a bonus language, or spend skill points for it.  It's not an automatic language for some reason.  Favored class Bard means you couldn't dip Fighter or Ranger without getting an xp penalty, unfortunately.


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## Beautiful-Decay (Dec 12, 2010)

We are starting at level 5. (But goes very high since we have 12 scenaries bought from a local shop down town. From 5-18.)

The Forest Gnome looks very plain better than the most races in the books, gonna gim "him" a bounty hunter look. :b (hopes there is somekind of comboy hat in D&D and a red line cloth in front of his mouth. :b

Maybe go for 16 Rogue and some "full bab class"; maybe fighter for more feats. (16 rogue and 4 full BAB for the fourth attack ofc.) since our GM dosen't use exp per kill, but 1 lvl per 3 scenaries. (no xp penalty)

Basicly the combo is only between the two gloves + Rapid Reload and Light Crossbows. = 2 feats and 20k G. Are there other common acher combos I should know about I could drop into the core build of this?


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