# More powerful spells at first level?



## osarusan (Jun 2, 2005)

[Edit: I changed the title of this post to match the topic better... as I wrote the original post in a hurry and just threw that title in. It used to be "How do you deal with spell differences?"]




I'm really enjoying using EOM in my game. The flexibility is fantastic, and all of my players absolutely love it.

However, one thing I'm running into snares with is balancing dungeons now that my players have access to abilities at low level that were previoulsy reserved for higher levels. For example, teleport used to be a decently high level spell so that players couldn't cast it around freely... but players in EOM can easily use Move Space to teleport the party into separate areas of the dungeon, bypassing traps, rooms, etc. We may not all expect the PCs to enter the dungeon through the front door at low levels... but it causes problems when they can teleport up or down into different levels of the dungeon and bypass entire areas... effectively giving them 100% control over how to go through the dungeon.

It created a problem in my game last week where the PCs used Move Space to teleport into the main room of a small keep rather than fight their way in through the front door, and (I'm in a game right now, on a food break) it's about to cause trouble as they're about to enter a dungeon and may teleport up a level to the last room in the dungeon without even realizing it.

Obviously one answer is "Don't make your dungeons so linear." But it's hard to make a game where the whole place is entirely free-handed. Also, it takes the fun out of it for the DM and for the players when the game is so anticlimactic that they can fight the end guy first-thing... Sorry if this sounds rushed, like I said I'm in game and actually am rushing a little bit.

Anyway, other than making all of my dungeon floors over 30-feet apart (I don't want to completely *negate* the use of Move Space... just make it less game-kill), what can I do? I want this dungeon to be fun and challenging, without having to just tell my players "oh, there happens to be an antimagic field there..." or "oh it just somehow doesn't work now."

So what do you guys do to prevent low-level characters from becoming so powerful? Or did I misread the rules?


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## Primitive Screwhead (Jun 2, 2005)

*Intel Checks..*

In order for the group to teleport, the caster must make an INT to arrive where planned. Failure puts them off course by 1D10 x 1D10 %

For a 'go 30' that away' would be set at DC 20.

Thier end desitination could be in a solid object, in which case they take 1D10 points of damage every round until the caster makes a DC 20 INT check to 'redirect' them.

 At low levels, Teleporting hither and thither can kill them..

Of course, this brings up the porblem with Scry + Teleport a bit earlier in the game, but most BBEG's turf should have an anti-Scry set up.

Hope this helps!


edit = Dont forget, old castles/keep.. and most dungeons dont really fit nicely on a 5'x5' grid. The players may see teh map from a birds eye POV, but the characters should probably need Survival checks to determine which direction is which. DC 15 should be about right for being precise enough for a room layout... still run the risk of landing in a table or something.


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## osarusan (Jun 2, 2005)

well the problem comes from arrow slits, windows, and things like that... since you can bestow the spell upon everyone in your party, or even as an area effect. It becomes more powerful than dimension door, and that was not even available to such low-level casters. (still in game, sorry for quick reply... managed to convince them not to teleport through the arrow slits on the 2nd story, not so worried about secret doors, but still worried about entire volumes of stone or different levels)


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## Primitive Screwhead (Jun 2, 2005)

*HR option*

You could HR that Move Space area effects require the Discriminating enhnacement, limiting the number of legal targets to the Caster Level....

Technically, without that all targets within the spells area would teleport, unattended objects like dirt, rocks, plants... etc.

Anyway, I hope the game went well!


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## osarusan (Jun 2, 2005)

Well, requiring discriminating is not all that helpful, because the caster can easily just cast the spell on every party member instead, and then they all can teleport.

And like I said, I don't really want to impose more house rules or cripple the spells for the players. But what would be a good defense against this for a castle/dungeon/etc. so the PC's can't do this in every instance.

For example, if a keep has windows or even arrow slits, the players will know there is a hollow space beyond and can pretty much safely teleport in to them. There still is an INT check, and that is enough to deter the players from doing this for minor things... but when first entering a dungeon, who *wouldn't* want to get a good head start and teleport in if the option is available to them?

But as far as I can see, there's no way to "teleport-proof" a place. This argument comes up in standard D&D, but the rationale is usually that teleport is a high enough level spell that there aren't too many wizards who can cast it enough to bring a whole party into a dungeon/castle/keep and mess things up.

However, allowing even level 1 characters to easily bypass a castle wall (move space 0/gen 1) seems to be a bit unbalancing to me. True, it's not as useful once *in* the dungeon, as tunnels twist and turn... but for breaking and entering buildings, and finding alternate ways into dungeons, my players have really been starting to press the rules. I've managed to prevent them from completely throwing me out of my plans thanks to some quick thinking, but it certainly scared me... and I want to be better prepared in the future should characters try to do this again.

I really don't want to "beat the players" here, or nerf a spell that can be really fun... but I'm looking for some kind of countermeasure that can be used... afterall, if every lvl 1 wizard can potentially zip in and out of any building/dungeon/house/you-name-it on the planet, there must be some way to counterbalance this??

I guess if nobody can think of anything, I'll make some sort of house rule... but I'd rather find a way to defeat this problem using the rules, rather than making up a new one.



Btw, the game went well  thanks. I convinced them to use the front entrance to the dungeon by putting mysterious archer-looking figures in the windows (phew!) and plans were not ruined... Sorry for being a little to wordy with this post, but I just gamed for 12 hours straight. ;-)


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## Primitive Screwhead (Jun 2, 2005)

*Some light reading might help...*

Grab Steven Brust - Vlad Taltos novels. His setting is high magic where Raise Dead and Teleport are relatively common.

 An easy deterent is the low cost of Divination/Alarm type spells. Use of teleporting could set off an alarm, letting the guards know that someone just appeared in a protected area. This would be a common sense protection against magic using thieves.

 A second deterent, which you have already used, is that characters cannot act immediately upon thier arrival {using the rules from Dimension Door}, meaning they can never gain surprise, and may be flat-footed against a quick witted guard.

The third deterent is the INT check to miss where you are aiming for.

A forth deterent is similar looking rooms... you say "what the H$ll?" Failure of the INT check sends you to a similarly appearing location. Perhaps the BBEG built a room in the middle of his place that looks exactly like his lair.. then emptied it of air and sealed it shut, permanently.   
  Okay, maybe you wont want to go that far, as most characters would not be able to survive the sudden lack of breathing with no exits. 

All that being said, perhaps your planning adventures should start assuming alternate entry points. Non-linear adventures are harder to do, more so if you are handling 12 hour sessions already  {lucky bastard}  Let the players revel in shortcutting some of the minion encounters, and even give them XP for 'defeating' them.... then have a BBEG counter them in a nasty way. Its not 'dm vs player' or trying to beat them.. its roleplaying the BBEG to his/her potential. Anyone living in a world where the enemy can teleport in from across the continent will have some means to hinder this.


I think I will institute the HR to require Discriminating.. but not have a MP cost attached. As well as define that the characters cannot act the turn they arrive ala Dimension Door.
BTW, thanks for helping me mull over this issue before it becomes an issue IMC


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## osarusan (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the advice.  I'll start putting these in my dungeons from now on. The trick is to make sure published adventures are EOM-safe. ;-) That's where I got thrown off on this one.

So EOM is changing the way I create dungeons, and that is not a bad thing. ;-)


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## astriemer (Jun 2, 2005)

d-minky said:
			
		

> However, one thing I'm running into snares with is balancing dungeons now that my players have access to abilities at low level that were previoulsy reserved for higher levels. For example, teleport used to be a decently high level spell so that players couldn't cast it around freely... but players in EOM can easily use Move Space to teleport the party into separate areas of the dungeon, bypassing traps, rooms, etc. We may not all expect the PCs to enter the dungeon through the front door at low levels... but it causes problems when they can teleport up or down into different levels of the dungeon and bypass entire areas... effectively giving them 100% control over how to go through the dungeon.




As PS mentioned, the problem within the dungeon could be ameliorated with requireing survival checks to determine distance and direction.




> Obviously one answer is "Don't make your dungeons so linear." But it's hard to make a game where the whole place is entirely free-handed. Also, it takes the fun out of it for the DM and for the players when the game is so anticlimactic that they can fight the end guy first-thing... Sorry if this sounds rushed, like I said I'm in game and actually am rushing a little bit.
> 
> Anyway, other than making all of my dungeon floors over 30-feet apart (I don't want to completely *negate* the use of Move Space... just make it less game-kill), what can I do? I want this dungeon to be fun and challenging, without having to just tell my players "oh, there happens to be an antimagic field there..." or "oh it just somehow doesn't work now."
> 
> So what do you guys do to prevent low-level characters from becoming so powerful? Or did I misread the rules?




With Move Space being available at such a low level the economics of defense changes for that world. Anti-teleport zone magic items (Dispel Magic v. Move Space) and spells would quickly become more common as well, particularly for those areas that would be likely targets.

Anti-Entrance Stone
This magic item prevents the use of commonly available spells to secure entrance to an area that you want guarded. It protects a small room and as it prevents a spell, it sets off an alarm to indicate an intrusion attempt.
Targeted Dispel Magic versus Move Space, Scry, Move Earth (1 MP each). The creator has 8 ranks in Dispel Magic. (SR 19 or +9 Scry DC)
Contingent Create Sound (5 MP)
Total MP 9 (8 + 1 for duration).
81,000 gp base value

While that appears expensive, any well funded keep should have a few of them in strategic locations.

Alternately, you could create a one-use version of the item that does the same thing (without the alarm, it just disintegrates) for 180 gp, but must be purchased repeatedly once its used. That is easily affordable by BBEGs and common castle/dungeon defenders.

As the PCs get higher level, have a higher level caster create the blocking stone (technically the cost won't go up as the SR and scry will go up as the creator's Dispel Magic skill goes up, though conceptually, a higher level mage would probably be able to charge more).

I would also think that if your PCs are spending MP to cast this spell repeatedly (to get all the party moved at once), shouldn't they be running out of MP pretty quickly.


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## Staffan (Jun 2, 2005)

I'm thinking... teleporting into solid objects is bad, right? So, wouldn't most defensive positions have lots of strings descending from the ceiling? That way, someone teleporting in there would find himself teleporting into a lot of quite solid strings.


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## osarusan (Jun 2, 2005)

astriemer said:
			
		

> With Move Space being available at such a low level the economics of defense changes for that world. Anti-teleport zone magic items (Dispel Magic v. Move Space) and spells would quickly become more common as well, particularly for those areas that would be likely targets.
> 
> Anti-Entrance Stone
> This magic item prevents the use of commonly available spells to secure entrance to an area that you want guarded. It protects a small room and as it prevents a spell, it sets off an alarm to indicate an intrusion attempt.
> ...




This one is wonderful!

I don't know how, but I completely forgot about the targetted antimagic effect. Being so cheap, it's the perfect spell for foiling those weaker mages. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm lucky it hasn't become a problem in game yet, so I can start putting these stones into important locations. Thanks a billion!


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## RangerWickett (Jun 3, 2005)

astriemer said:
			
		

> Anti-Entrance Stone
> This magic item prevents the use of commonly available spells to secure entrance to an area that you want guarded. It protects a small room and as it prevents a spell, it sets off an alarm to indicate an intrusion attempt.
> Targeted Dispel Magic versus Move Space, Scry, Move Earth (1 MP each). The creator has 8 ranks in Dispel Magic. (SR 19 or +9 Scry DC)
> Contingent Create Sound (5 MP)
> ...




You've overcosted a bit, I think.

You want an item that is Dispel Magic 3/Create Sound 1/Gen 3.  You get targeted antimagic (Move Space, Scry, Move Earth) for 3 MP, an alarm as loud as shouting men for 1 MP, contingency for 1 MP, a 10-ft. radius for 1 MP, and the minimum duration for 1 MP.  That's an expensive version.

The cheap version is Dispel Magic 1/Gen 2, 9000 gp to ward a room against teleportation fairly well.

If you want to shell out the big bucks, for 400,000 gp you can get Dispel Magic 3/Create Sound 2/Gen 15.  That gets you local area (800-ft. radius), a very loud contingent alarm, (if a mage with 23 ranks in Dispel Magic makes it) SR 33 for worrisome spells, and the discerning enhancement so the alarm only goes off in the right areas.

Of course, there's still always Transform Earth to just reshape the stone walls.

In the skills-based modern EOM I'm working on, I've limited a few really game-altering effects like teleportation to feats.


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## astriemer (Jun 3, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> You've overcosted a bit, I think.
> 
> You want an item that is Dispel Magic 3/Create Sound 1/Gen 3.  You get targeted antimagic (Move Space, Scry, Move Earth) for 3 MP, an alarm as loud as shouting men for 1 MP, contingency for 1 MP, a 10-ft. radius for 1 MP, and the minimum duration for 1 MP.  That's an expensive version.
> 
> ...




I like the cheap version, though it just protects against teleportation, and d-minky was concerned with scry as well.

You're right that it probably would start to get cheaper to shell out the big bucks once you've got a log of areas that need protecting.

So the more paranoid builders will get Dispel Magic 4 and add Transform Earth  (Did you mean Transform Earth? You're sample spell that lets you reshape stuff is Transform Ooze.)

The feats limit sounds very interesting, any previews coming?


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## astriemer (Jun 3, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> I'm thinking... teleporting into solid objects is bad, right? So, wouldn't most defensive positions have lots of strings descending from the ceiling? That way, someone teleporting in there would find himself teleporting into a lot of quite solid strings.




I would think that this wouldn't prevent the problem as the strings would move out of the way as they are functionally fluid in their environment. If you get too technical, there are solid bacteria (not only solid, but living too) floating all around and teleport wouldn't work ever.

'course you could always rule that the string theory would work how ever you wanted.


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## Cheiromancer (Jun 4, 2005)

Wouldn't a better approach be to find be some way of patching the EoM rules so that first level wizards coudn't teleport the party into a fortress?  For example, in 4CtF, the basic teleportation power required 8 hero points, so you had to be at least fifth level.

Just my 2 cp.


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## osarusan (Jun 4, 2005)

I don't like the idea of limiting options too much like that... the point is to be as flexible as possible. But using antimagics and minor things to foil weak attempts by low level mages seems like a better way to go, IMHO.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 4, 2005)

I think having powers like teleportation available at lower levels brings up issues of a more civic nature, beyond rules balance. While now that I look back I think that cantrip teleportation is probably a bad idea (especially since it can steal the rogue's "sneaking in" schtick), even if teleportation and flight are available at 5th level, that would be often enough that society would have to react to it.

Teleportation magic might be licensed or restricted, so that only government-authorized mages are allowed to teleport, and even then they're limited in where they can go. Anyone who breaks the rules is a criminal.  Heck, raising the dead might be illegal for a variety of social or religious reasons.

Astriemer, I'm readjusting some of the rules after doing some playtests, and once things are getting polished up I'll put a preview or two of the Modern rules up. After EOM - Modern is out, I'll probably use some of the lessons from it to improve a rerelease of the core EOM later this year.


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## osarusan (Jun 4, 2005)

RangerWicket, that brings up a really good point... there isn't much as far as rules go about the legality of magic. Sure, every system regulates Raise Dead, and making undead is always evil and illegal... but while every system mentions illegal magic and such, where are the rules that actually state laws about magic? I sure haven't seen any.

Perhaps there could be a brief section on that in the next EOM rerelease?


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## Nyeshet (Jun 4, 2005)

Such rules would vary greatly from state to state. For instance, raising skeletons as guards - legal or illegal? I can easily see a case for each. Skeletons could be mindless bone constructs put to work doing menial tasks or tirelessly guarding important areas. They might also be viewed as desecration of a corpse. 

Charm Person could be a major offense in some areas and viewed as a mostly harmless joke in others (as it makes you view another as a friend - it does not force you to act in a manner different from normal). I imagine its use in crimes would be viewed in much the same way as alcohol - in some areas. A region that has recently dealt with a powerful evil enchanter might have a different view on the matter. 

Similarly some areas might see utility magic as positive, and all magic specifically made to harm others (most evocation) as negative - either suspitious or illegal. What about the use of Bull Strength before an official fight / dual? I imagine it would be viewed in some areas as similar to steroid use today, while others might see it as no worse than having the best equiptment money can buy. 

Divinations might be poorly viewed in areas that have strong concerns about privacy (scry). Transmutations such as fabricate-style spells might be illegal in areas where local craftsmen are worried about mass production of simple items lowering their price on the market. 

Face it, in most societies, much of magic would be viewed with suspition, if for no other reason than human(oid)s simply being human(oid)s. It is human nature to be suspitious of that which we do not understand. Even in areas where magic is common, I expect any local government mostly made of non-casters to have a multitude of laws regulating its use - at least within city / town / county limits. 

Considering how varied such as this can be, I think you should make the laws on a case by case basis. A good guideline to consider: any potentially lethal spells (damaging spells), any spells that allow invasion of privacy (scry / thought detection), any spells that might circumvent "fair play" (in contests, battles, economics, politics, etc) would likely be regulated or illegal. Also included are any spells the local cultures &/or religions view negatively (such as raising zombies or perhaps even raising the dead). Most healing will likely be alright - unless you are using a low magic world and the local doctors' union objects to its use in minor (non-emergency) matters, of course.


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## Thomas5251212 (Jun 4, 2005)

It would be hard to define "laws" about magic without making a lot of assumptions about the society involved; after all, there were plenty of societies that didn't really have "laws" about spying on people; it was up to the person to take care of his own information security.  And its easy to see a society that doesn't care how you trespassed into someone's land, just that you did (its a relatively modern concept to make law specific to methods of conducting an infraction, rather than just doing it (though not completely unheard of in the past).

So its not suprising there's no rules about this, as RW has generally tried to minimize rules that made campaign assumptions, other than some necessary cosmological ones.


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## osarusan (Jun 4, 2005)

I agree with you Thomas, its too much to go laying out campaign-specific rules in these type of option books, but I don't think that means the question should be avoided alltogether... In fact, Nyeshet's few paragraphs would fit nicely as a sidebar in a book like this... just to give DMs an idea to build upon, maybe a few sample rules from sample kingdoms, or something like that.

Afterall, if there are specific magical traditions being presented in the books, we could at least see some laws, or guidelines for laws, that might fit those magical traditions.


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## genshou (Jun 22, 2005)

Magic could also be a lot like modern-day hacking–it's possible to use it for your own means, but in modern society it is most definitely illegal.  That doesn't stop people from doing it, though, which is why firewalls and proxy servers exist.  Of course, there are times when code slicing is highly "appropriate" from the government's perspective, eg when they are the ones doing it for intelligence/counterintelligence purposes.

Teleportation spells could be a lot like hacking into a server–if it's a home computer that's fairly low security, there's not much to stop you.  But, if you try to hack into a secure server and get caught, the proper authorities are notified and you're in some trouble.  So, most keeps would have at least rudimentary protection against teleportation, given its prevalence in Elements of Magic.  And you wouldn't get away with just flinging spells around wantonly, either


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