# NOOO!  Jar Jar to appear in Return of the Jedi DVD



## Kai Lord (Jul 26, 2004)

Okay maybe not, but close enough:



> But even more exciting (or depressing) information that came out of the convention were the copies of the Star Wars Trilogy DVD Collection (due September 21st, as if you weren't aware) that were making their way around the convention to those in the know, with connections, or sticky fingers. So for those fearing (or hoping) that Lucas would again make extensive changes to the classic first three movies in the saga, you will get your wish. Everything from less readily apparent changes - sound effects to the color of a lightsaber - to more substantive additions, including Ian McDiarmid (the evil Emperor) replacing Clive Revill in The Empire Strikes Back, to Anakin Hayden Christensen's face (badly) added to the body of Sebastian Shaw at the end of Return of the Jedi, *or a chorus of cheering Gungians (or whatever those Jar Jar things are called) also tacked on to the finale of Jedi, will be found in the new DVDs.* Sigh...but find out for yourself when the set reaches a galaxy near you this fall.




http://www.dvdfile.com/software/dvd-video/archive/2004/07_25.html


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## Khayman (Jul 26, 2004)

At which point did Lucas start hating us?


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## Pants (Jul 26, 2004)

Duble posts are teh suck


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## trancejeremy (Jul 26, 2004)

> At which point did Lucas start hating us?




I think when Willow flopped.



(Curiously, Lucas wrote a sequel to that movie as a novel, but you would never know from it, because it never mentions "Willow" anywhere on the cover or blurb. Depressing book, too. One of those sequels, like Alien 3, that I hate, because it turns a happy ending into a sad one)


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## Pants (Jul 26, 2004)

Ahhh god... I just want to watch my favorite, old movies.  Why do they keep changing?!  I don't care if the s f/x are dated, I just want to watch my three favorite, old movies.  

Screw you Lucas


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## Michael Morris (Jul 26, 2004)

My only gripe with the original of the original trilogy is that you can see the dowel rod of Vader's lightsaber in the fight with Luke.  But that stuff above is just ludicrous.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Lucas is a brilliant sfx editor, but he's one of the crappiest directors ever to sit behind a camera.


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## Khayman (Jul 26, 2004)

Oh well. I gave up crying over SW a long time ago... just after Greedo shot first.


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## Wombat (Jul 26, 2004)

Khayman said:
			
		

> Oh well. I gave up crying over SW a long time ago... just after Greedo shot first.




word

Lucas should just leave the movies alone.  I loved SW.  The movies coming out now are now SW, but SW 3.2.1.1bis.

Leave 'em alone, George!


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## Dark Jezter (Jul 26, 2004)

I can just picture George Lucas sitting in his office, thinking "Well, since the fanboys are going to complain no matter what I do, I might as well give them something to _really_ bitch about!"


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## Khayman (Jul 26, 2004)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> I can just picture George Lucas sitting in his office, thinking "Well, since the fanboys are going to complain no matter what I do, I might as well give them something to _really_ bitch about!"




...and then popping back another crunchy spice toad.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 26, 2004)

Unbelievable.

You know, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I know that my own little $100 (or whatever) won't make a difference to Lucas. But I'm _not_ buying this crap.

When he releases the original trilogy on DVD, I'll be first in line. Hell, I'll preorder. But this is ludicrous--and what's coming out is _not_ the original trilogy, whatever Lucas wants to call it.

(And yes, they're his movies, he can change what he wants, blah, blah, blah. I'm not disputing that. I'm not disputing that he _can_. I just don't think he _should_. And while the effects in the SE may be better, I believe that every actual _change_ Lucas made--and there's a lot of them--has notably reduced the quality of the movies. He can do what he wants, and I can buy what I want. And I'm not buying this.)


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## Express (Jul 26, 2004)

This isnt a joke? sigh. I can understand EFX tweaks, but why erase the performance of Sebastian Shaw? Whats next? Airbrushing Mark Hamill out of the "canon"? Im surprised he didnt totally replace the Frank Oz Yoda with CGI.

Is this perhaps an attempt to create a seperate version of the original trilogy? After seeing the rabid loyalty of LOTR fans to purchase different versions of those movies, is Lucasarts trying to duplicate this artifically and cash in?

Oh well, its not my movie I guess. And I wont be buying this version either.


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## RogueRonin (Jul 26, 2004)

This gives me reason to keep my VCR around. I’m not even particularly fond of the special edition Star Wars movies, but this is just too much. I was thinking of pre-ordering the DVD set the other day while I was at the store, but something (the force) told me not to. And now I’m glad it did. Bug humbar to Lucas, he must have to much free time or something, to keep messing around with his films.


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## jester47 (Jul 26, 2004)

T-Shirt:


Han Solo Fired First

Somthing to wear when you go to meet Lucas. 
Occasionally he shows up in Tahoe. 
Reports say that he can be found dining out.  
If I ever see him, I will send a napkin that has the above on it to his table, followed by:

PS, love the FX.


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## KenM (Jul 26, 2004)

I read someplace online that they might be changing the Greedo shooting first scene back to the way it was on the DVD's. As to the Gungans at the end of RotJ, I don't think i'll mind. It should only be a quick shot of them dancing and not be in the movie that much.


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## Shadowdancer (Jul 26, 2004)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> (Curiously, Lucas wrote a sequel to that movie as a novel, but you would never know from it, because it never mentions "Willow" anywhere on the cover or blurb. Depressing book, too. One of those sequels, like Alien 3, that I hate, because it turns a happy ending into a sad one)



Actually, he co-wrote a whole trilogy of sequels to "Willow." I read the first one, but it was so confusing, and so bad, I lost interest and never bothered with the other two. The only thing good about any of the sequel books was the cover art.


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## frankthedm (Jul 26, 2004)

Hanover Fiste  said:
			
		

> Hangin's too good for him!!
> 
> Burnin's too good for him!!
> 
> ...




i agree!


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## mmu1 (Jul 26, 2004)

I've got the collector's box set of the original edition in letterbox format... I guess it slightly went up in value again.


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## DonAdam (Jul 26, 2004)

I too have an unmolested widescreen version of the original movies.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 26, 2004)

I have the originals on VHS...but these 'changes' don't bother me. I think some people are just being overly critical. Its still Star Wars, its STILL the OT, and Gungans aren't nearly as bad as some people preach. At least, they're no worse than 3PO, of which most of us have wonderful memories from when we were kids(when we were KIDS..key phrase, people)


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## Arnwyn (Jul 26, 2004)

> Anakin Hayden Christensen's face (badly) added to the body of Sebastian Shaw at the end of Return of the Jedi



Wow. That's just crap.

The other changes, though, I can live with. Yeah, even the Gungans cheering.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 26, 2004)

Cheering Gungans do not bother me.

Photoshopping whuzzhizname, the pretty-boy who played Anikin, into RotJ bothers me.

I'd comment further on these changes but there's simply too much hate in my soul.  George Lucas drinks the blood of puppies.  I think that covers it.  Moving on....


The first Willow sequel book was just stupid.  They changed Willow's name, changed his character (_"What can change the nature of a man?"_ A really crummy writer, that's who!), blew up all the major cities in the original movie setting, killed off Madmartigan by around paragraph three, introduced a new warrior guy and explored his character only to kill him off in the end, introduce a new race of tall furry river guys for no real reason, and in general they ignored the movie and essentially created a new setting from scratch.  I don't know why they even bothered to stamp the word "sequel" on the cover.  It wasn't a sequel.  It was a fantasy novel that ripped a couple of very minor characters from the Willow movie, the tiny little comic relief guys and the princess who is now a teenager.  That's it!  That's all that book is!

Oh, and the whole story could have been circumvented in roughly fifteen minutes except that the renamed-Willow didn't feel like telling people who he was.  He just sits back and let things go to crud.  Really.  I'm not making that up.  There was more character consistency and motivation in the _Dungeons & Dragons movie_ than this piece of drek.

Bah!  Lucas!  Festering crapweasel!


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## Celtavian (Jul 26, 2004)

*re*

I just don't understand. *sigh*


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## Pants (Jul 26, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Its still Star Wars, its STILL the OT



I dunno, these are starting to barely resemble the movies I grew up with.  It doesn't seem like Star Wars much anymore...


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## Rackhir (Jul 26, 2004)

What I found most surprising about the SE OT, was that they didn't fix some of the obvious flaws in the movies. Like in the attack on the death star, there are some shots where it is painfully obvious that you are looking at a model. I mean if you are going back and adding in entirely new scenes or new elements into old scenes, why not fix the few FX shots that sucked in the original film. In general I'm amazed at how well the fx and look of the films have held up. Most of them still look state of the art today. 

BTW has anyone ever seen the reshooting of the blockade runner sequence from the begining of SW, that they did in Imax for an imax movie on Special Effects? That was a real jaw dropper it looked so amazing. Maybe when they release the HD versions of things, they'll include it.


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## Kai Lord (Jul 26, 2004)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> BTW has anyone ever seen the reshooting of the blockade runner sequence from the begining of SW, that they did in Imax for an imax movie on Special Effects?



Yes!  I was so shocked when that it wasn't included in the SW:SE theatrical release I actually wondered if somehow my theater had mistakenly gotten a hold of the original version of the movie instead.  The new dewback scene quickly put that question to rest.

It was amazing, with blaster fire from the Star Destroyer ricocheting off the Blockade Runner's deflector shields and the whole back end of the Star Destroyer shimmered from the heat off the engines.  I was utterly blown away.  The only thing I could think of was that they put so much effort into making that opening scene better that they thought they'd be forced to go through and do that for *every* scene to make them match, and decided to just leave the way it originally was.

Originally the SW:SE was scheduled to open in May of 1997 on the exact day of its anniversary but George pushed it up to January when he found out that his buddy Spielberg wanted to release Jurassic Park: The Lost World on that same weekend.  I bet losing half a year made them cancel a lot of SFX enhancements that were already underway.


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## myrdden (Jul 26, 2004)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Cheering Gungans do not bother me.
> 
> Photoshopping whuzzhizname, the pretty-boy who played Anikin, into RotJ bothers me.




That sums it up for me as well. Although I don't really see why the Gungans need to be in the fianle, it won't bother me if it does come to pass.

Digitally adding in Hayden over the previous actor Shaw, however doesn't seem right to me at all.  Enhancing/re-doing SFX is one thing, replacing actors digitially is another.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 26, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Yes!  I was so shocked when that it wasn't included in the SW:SE theatrical release I actually wondered if somehow my theater had mistakenly gotten a hold of the original version of the movie instead.  The new dewback scene quickly put that question to rest.
> 
> It was amazing, with blaster fire from the Star Destroyer ricocheting off the Blockade Runner's deflector shields and the whole back end of the Star Destroyer shimmered from the heat off the engines.  I was utterly blown away.  The only thing I could think of was that they put so much effort into making that opening scene better that they thought they'd be forced to go through and do that for *every* scene to make them match, and decided to just leave the way it originally was.
> 
> Originally the SW:SE was scheduled to open in May of 1997 on the exact day of its anniversary but George pushed it up to January when he found out that his buddy Spielberg wanted to release Jurassic Park: The Lost World on that same weekend.  I bet losing half a year made them cancel a lot of SFX enhancements that were already underway.



 I remember seeing that a long time ago. Amazing stuff, and I too was surprised when I didn't see it in the SE. In fact, I had gotten to the point recently where I was wondering if I'd actually seen it...or just dreamed it. It's been that long and I've only seen it that one time.


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## Orius (Jul 26, 2004)

Shadowdancer said:
			
		

> Actually, he co-wrote a whole trilogy of sequels to "Willow." I read the first one, but it was so confusing, and so bad, I lost interest and never bothered with the other two. The only thing good about any of the sequel books was the cover art.



 I have the book, and I want to like them, because I liked Willow, but it's hard.  Like you said, the story is just too damn confusing.

 Willow doesn't really play a huge part in the books, and that's because he's sort of supposed to be in the background.  The story is more about Elora Danan's destiny than Willow.  He's fairly central to the story in the first book, but then the story shifts to elora, and he sort of gets moves to the background.


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## KenM (Jul 26, 2004)

I just hope the Star Wars DVD's has the scene on Tattoine with Biggs and Luke, either back in the movie, or with other deleted scenes. DVD is the perfect place for it.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 26, 2004)

KenM said:
			
		

> I just hope the Star Wars DVD's has the scene on Tattoine with Biggs and Luke, either back in the movie, or with other deleted scenes. DVD is the perfect place for it.



 I've wanted to see that, and the scene of the sandstorm before leaving Tatooine in RotJ for a while now...


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## DralonXitz (Jul 26, 2004)

This infuriates me.  I am a massive SW fan, I like it more than any other franchise.  The Gungans part is fine by me, exposes more of the vast aliens of Star Wars to the newer audience.  

But putting that whiny brat Hayden's face?  Now that is just wrong.  I mean, the whole magic of that original scene was finally seeing Lord Vader's face, and seeing all the damage battle over the decades had done to it, what the countless Jedi slain in the purge did to him.  But imposing HAYDEN????


Evil...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 26, 2004)

DralonXitz said:
			
		

> This infuriates me.  I am a massive SW fan, I like it more than any other franchise.  The Gungans part is fine by me, exposes more of the vast aliens of Star Wars to the newer audience.
> 
> But putting that whiny brat Hayden's face?  Now that is just wrong.  I mean, the whole magic of that original scene was finally seeing Lord Vader's face, and seeing all the damage battle over the decades had done to it, what the countless Jedi slain in the purge did to him.  But imposing HAYDEN????
> 
> ...



 Though I do agree to not liking the Hayden's face thing...I have to wonder how easy it will be to tell that its still Hayden by that point.


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## haiiro (Jul 27, 2004)

DralonXitz said:
			
		

> But putting that whiny brat Hayden's face?  Now that is just wrong.  I mean, the whole magic of that original scene was finally seeing Lord Vader's face, and seeing all the damage battle over the decades had done to it, what the countless Jedi slain in the purge did to him.  But imposing HAYDEN????




That pretty much sums it up for me, too. Gungans...eh, but why change Vader? I think that might actually bother me more than the changes to the Sarlacc Pit, or "mini-Jabba" mincing around Solo, or Greedo shooting first... Ugh.

Hopefully RotS will at least be more like AotC, and not at all like TPM. :\


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## Silver Moon (Jul 27, 2004)

I've found that Star Wars fans take their Sci-Fi very seriously, and do not like it when people make fun of their movies.  One lone exception - Jar Jar.  Seems that he's considered fair game.


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## Taelorn76 (Jul 27, 2004)

Are they replacing Shaw's face when Luke removes his helmet as he is dieing, or when he appears in astral form at the very end?  

Not that I support it, but in astral form you can make the argument that Vader/Anikan would appear as he did prior to turning to the dakside. Gaining back his humanity, but in the physical form he would still be all disfigured and look like Vader (Shaw).  

Regardless I still don't like that George is changing the movies around as he so desires.


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## jarlaxlecq (Jul 27, 2004)

Aside from Han shooting first, i really dont have any problem with the additions. If i were lucas i would simply release the redone collection as I please but give the option to view the original trilogy as they were when they were released.


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## haiiro (Jul 27, 2004)

jarlaxlecq said:
			
		

> If i were lucas i would simply release the redone collection as I please but give the option to view the original trilogy as they were when they were released.




That'd be ideal, but somehow it seems unlikely.


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## Banshee16 (Jul 27, 2004)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I think when Willow flopped.
> 
> 
> 
> (Curiously, Lucas wrote a sequel to that movie as a novel, but you would never know from it, because it never mentions "Willow" anywhere on the cover or blurb. Depressing book, too. One of those sequels, like Alien 3, that I hate, because it turns a happy ending into a sad one)




Willow was actually not bad, IMO.  Madmartigan was pretty cool.  I read the first two of the novels that are sequels to Willow....and Willow doesn't appear, because he changes his name.....and then I think he dies...though I'm not sure...it's been a while.  He goes through major personality changes.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Jul 27, 2004)

Spoony Bard said:
			
		

> My only gripe with the original of the original trilogy is that you can see the dowel rod of Vader's lightsaber in the fight with Luke.  But that stuff above is just ludicrous.
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Lucas is a brilliant sfx editor, but he's one of the crappiest directors ever to sit behind a camera.




I personally think Lucas' ego and his own legend got to him.

Why did he *have* to write and direct the new ones?  Didn't have have someone else, Ivan Rietman or something, write Eps 5 and 6?  They had far superior dialogue.

Banshee


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 27, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Are they replacing Shaw's face when Luke removes his helmet as he is dieing, or when he appears in astral form at the very end?




I'm pretty sure it's the latter. The former would just be silly. 

Not that it would stop George, of course.

I also heard a rumor that the Jabba-meets-Han scene in A New Hope will be redone, so that Jabba's at the size he is in RotJ. Don't know if it's true, but I can always hope.

And now I want to see that re-done blockade runner sequence. Sounds cool.

Demiurge out.


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## KenM (Jul 27, 2004)

I want to see them redo all the scenes with Leia so she is in the steel bikini in every scene.


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## Mark Chance (Jul 27, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> (when we were KIDS..key phrase, people)




Exactly. Lucas is an impressive movie-maker when the critical faculties are disconnected. It takes a child to ignore his lousy dialogue, awkward transitions, tissue-thin characterizations, hackneyed storylines, and ludicrous obsession with being cutting edge. I recently watched the refurbed _Star Wars_ with my 7-year-old son. He loved it. I fell asleep.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Jul 27, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> I have the book, and I want to like them, because I liked Willow, but it's hard.  Like you said, the story is just too damn confusing.



It's mainly Claremont's doing, I think.  The whole thing is credited as "by Chris Claremont from a story by George Lucas" iirc.  Claremont has long been a hack, but has compensated for his inability to write action by writing comics, which have illustrators.  Without that safety net, the whole thing falls apart a bit.

I kind of liked the way magic worked, though.  And the cosmology was interesting.  The role of dragons, in particular, made me sit up and take notice.


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## Desdichado (Jul 27, 2004)

My brother, right now as we speak, is ripping my old VHS "final release" of the original trilogy to DVD-R.  I'm gonna make sure he makes me a copy.  I'll buy these new ones, and all that, but I'll probably be disappointed in them.


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## Desdichado (Jul 27, 2004)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Why did he *have* to write and direct the new ones?  Didn't have have someone else, Ivan Rietman or something, write Eps 5 and 6?  They had far superior dialogue.



Larry Kasdan and Leigh Bracket wrote the screenplay to Empire, and Irvin Kershner directed it.  Larry also was co-credited with Lucas on the screenplay of Jedi, and Richard Marquand has the director's credit.

But yeah, I think that's really all the new movies have needed.  The stories themselves are fine, but the dialogue and pacing in particular are what drag the movies down.


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## Orius (Jul 27, 2004)

KenM said:
			
		

> I just hope the Star Wars DVD's has the scene on Tattoine with Biggs and Luke, either back in the movie, or with other deleted scenes. DVD is the perfect place for it.



 Yeah, seconded.  He put the scene where they meet on Yavin back in for the original theatrical releases, he should just go all the way here and restore the whole thing.  Full establish that Biggs is Luke's buddy, because it matter more when biggs finally bites it in the end.


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## Orius (Jul 27, 2004)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I also heard a rumor that the Jabba-meets-Han scene in A New Hope will be redone, so that Jabba's at the size he is in RotJ. Don't know if it's true, but I can always hope.



 Improved Jabba graphics would be good.  The SE Star Wars Jabba looked muddy and terrible.  The TPM Jabba actually looked pretty good.  Redoing it so it actually looks like puppet Jabba would be good.


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## KenM (Jul 27, 2004)

It would not surpise me if they take out all of the pupet Jabba in RotJ and put in a CGI Jabba.


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## Orius (Jul 27, 2004)

Canis said:
			
		

> It's mainly Claremont's doing, I think. The whole thing is credited as "by Chris Claremont from a story by George Lucas" iirc. Claremont has long been a hack, but has compensated for his inability to write action by writing comics, which have illustrators. Without that safety net, the whole thing falls apart a bit.
> 
> I kind of liked the way magic worked, though. And the cosmology was interesting. The role of dragons, in particular, made me sit up and take notice.



 Yeah, I'd agree.  The writing is terrible, but underneath it is a pretty good story, and the world is fairly spectacular.  They also take a lot of the standard fantasy races and do something different with them instead of merely copying Tolkien.  It's a shame that the writing makes the story difficult to follow.


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## Klaus (Jul 27, 2004)

KenM said:
			
		

> It would not surpise me if they take out all of the pupet Jabba in RotJ and put in a CGI Jabba.



 Which would be a shame, since that HUGE puppet is the best Jabba yet!


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## Villano (Jul 27, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Are they replacing Shaw's face when Luke removes his helmet as he is dieing, or when he appears in astral form at the very end?




You know, that didn't even occur to me.  I was just thinking about him as the "ghost" at the end.  I'm now depressed.


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## John Crichton (Jul 28, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Larry Kasdan and Leigh Bracket wrote the screenplay to Empire, and Irvin Kershner directed it.  Larry also was co-credited with Lucas on the screenplay of Jedi, and Richard Marquand has the director's credit.
> 
> But yeah, I think that's really all the new movies have needed.  The stories themselves are fine, but the dialogue and pacing in particular are what drag the movies down.



 I've never liked Lucas directing style, myself and I have very little issue with the SEs.  My one complaint about the prequels has been the overall directing.  It would have done Lucas well to hand over the reigns to one of his ILM pals or to another industry friend.  Free him up for more FX work.  

As for the changes to the original films, he can do whatever he wants and it won't bug me.  But the originals need to be preserved and released.  I still think it will happen.  May not be until Lucas is dead or years from now but it will happen.


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## mojo1701 (Jul 28, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> But the originals need to be preserved and released.  I still think it will happen.



  Remind you of South Park: "Free Hat" anyone?


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## rbingham2000 (Jul 28, 2004)

As for Hayden replacing Shaw in the unmasking of Vader, I certainly hope not.

And there's a simple reason why: a lot of years has passed since the rise of the Empire and the almost total destruction of the Jedi. Vader is not immune to aging, and it just falls out that he's going to look a bit different from when he was young and wild Anakin.


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## John Crichton (Jul 28, 2004)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Remind you of South Park: "Free Hat" anyone?



 Doh.

I'm not getting the reference.  Only watched 2 seasons of South Park...


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 28, 2004)

Lucas has made more changes than that. Just for example...

The conversation between Vader and the Emperor in ESB is different. He didn't just insert Ian McDiarmid into the same conversation, he _changed the conversation_.

He's redubbed Boba Fett's voice with Temuera Morrison. Yes, I know he's revealed that Boba is a clone of Jango, but come _on_. This is going way too far. (Besides, why would Boba Fett still have the same accent? If you want to get nitpicky about it, I mean.)

I forget who said "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Lucas is proving his mind to be, in this respect, remarkably little.


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## John Crichton (Jul 28, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Lucas has made more changes than that. Just for example...
> 
> The conversation between Vader and the Emperor in ESB is different. He didn't just insert Ian McDiarmid into the same conversation, he _changed the conversation_.
> 
> ...



I think that one of the key things that people (that's people in general, not specifically yourself, Mouseferatu) are missing here is that these changes _aren't so bad and we haven't even seen them yet_. They are only viewed as attrocities because Lucas has been unwaivering as of yet to release anything but these versions of the films on DVD. If he simply made the originals available at the same time with some minor film clean up then the fuss wouldn't be as bad.

When putting together all 6 films and trying to make them all sync up when they were made 28 years apart of course there are going to be changes. I don't mind him trying to make everything mold together like this. And I understand that this is supposed to be the definitive version of the Star Wars Saga: The Rise, Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker. It also makes sense that Lucas doesn't want to further confuse people with multiple versions floating around at the same time. There are plenty of people who would be confused.

However, the originals should still be made available. If not now then somewhere down the line. There are multiple reasons to make the changes and there are many reasons to preserve the original vision. I bet if you took a poll we see that the main problem here is not the changes themselves but the disreguard for the previous work. I don't see these changes as a problem. People would still be making noise if none of these changes were made and the original films didn't mesh well with the final product - none of which we have seen yet.

Additionally, this is the first time something like this has ever been tried. I say cut the guy a little slack, enjoy the DVDs and wait for him to open his eyes and release the OT. But that's just me...


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 28, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I think that one of the key things that people (that's people in general, not specifically yourself, Mouseferatu) are missing here is that these changes _aren't so bad and we haven't even seen them yet_. They are only viewed as attrocities because Lucas has been unwaivering as of yet to release anything but these versions of the films on DVD. If he simply made the originals available at the same time with some minor film clean up then the fuss wouldn't be as bad.
> 
> When putting together all 6 films and trying to make them all sync up when they were made 28 years apart of course there are going to be changes. I don't mind him trying to make everything mold together like this. And I understand that this is supposed to be the definitive version of the Star Wars Saga: The Rise, Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker. It also makes sense that Lucas doesn't want to further confuse people with multiple versions floating around at the same time. There are plenty of people who would be confused.
> 
> ...




Actually, I've heard sound bites of part of the Emperor/Vader conversation. It _is_ that bad, because the change violates continuity and throws the motives behind Vader's actions for the first half of the movie into doubt. I suppose it's possible that, at some point earlier in the movie, they say something else to clear it up--but then, why change it in the first place?

It's not just about things being different. I feel thatmany of the changes Lucas made, for the SE and the current DVDs, _are_ bad. Greedo shooting first? Bad. Luke's dialogue to R2 on Dagobah changing? Bad. Luke screaming in the shaft on Bespin? Bad. Vader's poorly dubbed and unnecessary dialogue change when leaving Bespin? Bad. The new conversation between Vader and the Emperor? Bad. Hayden instead of Shaw? Bad.

All IMO, of course. And I know that you weren't talking specifically about me, so I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative.  I just want to make it clear that this is not about old grognards whining. There really is, in the minds of many, a true qualitative difference.

However, your ultimate point--that the original versions should be available no matter what else Lucas does--I agree with six million percent.


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## Kai Lord (Jul 28, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> It's not just about things being different. I feel thatmany of the changes Lucas made, for the SE and the current DVDs, _are_ bad.



Yep.  Every single instance of a character or dialogue change in the SE's was worse than the original version.  Some of the effects were a LOT better though, and that does help to even things up a bit.

Star Wars was always kind of goofy and rough around the edges, so if they slop up some changes while adding some spectacular new SFX, it isn't as noticeable, and I actually prefer the SE to the original.  But The Empire Strikes Back, as the experience it used to be, has been utterly ruined.  Oh well, LOTR is better than even the original ESB, so at least I can't lament the fact that Lucas screwed with my favorite movie of all time anymore.

ROTJ has always been cool, but in time I did recognize the disappointment it was after the spectacular set up by ESB.  Adding Gungans won't be the first silly thing included in the movie.  Its not like they'll be replacing cheering Rebel troops, they'll most likely be inserted in place of some celebrating...ewoks.  Not a huge step down.  But poor, poor ESB.  And it didn't have to be so.

I'll still get the DVD's for SW and ROTJ and the Hoth battle of ESB, but I just don't think I can stomach girlie man Luke screaming as he falls during what used to be the most dramatic moment in the history of sci-fi and Chris Tucker saying "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival."


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## reanjr (Jul 28, 2004)

Khayman said:
			
		

> At which point did Lucas start hating us?




It's not that he hates you SW people.  He just doesn't respect you.  He's content taking your money over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again for the same schlock.  You're gonna pay for it anyway.  And by updating some things, he might be able to get some 10-20 year olds to buy them as well.  Those are the customers he cares about.  You guys are shoe-ins and under the point of consideration.


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## KenM (Jul 28, 2004)

reanjr said:
			
		

> It's not that he hates you SW people.  He just doesn't respect you.  He's content taking your money over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again for the same schlock.  You're gonna pay for it anyway.  And by updating some things, he might be able to get some 10-20 year olds to buy them as well.  Those are the customers he cares about.  You guys are shoe-ins and under the point of consideration.





  At least Peter Jackson said from the start of him doing Lord of the Rings that he would be doing both a theactical cut and extended edtion of each movie. Honest with us from the start.


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## BSF (Jul 28, 2004)

Nah, not really.  I haven't bought any of the new crap, I mean, new films.  Nor do I plan to.  I suppose somebody might think it will make a good present, but I won't fork over cash for them.  I am content to watch my VHS versions of the original films.  The changes to the DVD's don't sound all that stellar either.  I hope it does well for him, but I won't be part of the consumer base until I have access to the films as I saw them.


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## John Crichton (Jul 28, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Actually, I've heard sound bites of part of the Emperor/Vader conversation. It _is_ that bad, because the change violates continuity and throws the motives behind Vader's actions for the first half of the movie into doubt. I suppose it's possible that, at some point earlier in the movie, they say something else to clear it up--but then, why change it in the first place?



I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm waiting for the final product to pass any judgement.  What I remember about the SEs was that there were some tweaks that didn't lessen the experience for me.  Yes, some things changed but it wasn't that bad.  Oh, except Greedo shooting first.  My eyes were quite wide at that.    That was really the only problem I had.



			
				Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> It's not just about things being different. I feel thatmany of the changes Lucas made, for the SE and the current DVDs, _are_ bad. Greedo shooting first? Bad. Luke's dialogue to R2 on Dagobah changing? Bad. Luke screaming in the shaft on Bespin? Bad. Vader's poorly dubbed and unnecessary dialogue change when leaving Bespin? Bad. The new conversation between Vader and the Emperor? Bad. Hayden instead of Shaw? Bad.
> 
> All IMO, of course. And I know that you weren't talking specifically about me, so I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative.  I just want to make it clear that this is not about old grognards whining. There really is, in the minds of many, a true qualitative difference.



I can see that and I can agree that many of the changes can be viewed as negative.  My only possible response is:  Let's wait and see how all 6 play out when all is said and done.  Ever since the SEs and Eps 1-3 were announced I've seen the Star Wars Saga as a work in progress which includes the films that were already released.

If it all sucks and makes no sense in the end then so be it.  I'm interested to see how it all pans out and really hope others feel the same.

No, the films aren't what we remember them as.  Another poster said that it would be interesting to get an opinion from someone who never saw the originals when all six are out and "Lucasized."  It would be.  I plan on asking my kids.  Er, when I have them somewhere in the future.  Luckily, I'll have my original widescreen OT still on VHS and untouched.  I'll probably pick up the laserdiscs somewhere along the way as well.



			
				Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> However, your ultimate point--that the original versions should be available no matter what else Lucas does--I agree with six million percent.



I think that is a sentiment shared by all here.


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## John Crichton (Jul 28, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Yep. Every single instance of a character or dialogue change in the SE's was worse than the original version. Some of the effects were a LOT better though, and that does help to even things up a bit.



I think it all evens out considering that dialogue has never been great in Star Wars.  I still cringe at some of the lines from the OT.

Oh, again, except Greedo/Han.  That was dumb.  




			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> ROTJ has always been cool, but in time I did recognize the disappointment it was after the spectacular set up by ESB. Adding Gungans won't be the first silly thing included in the movie. Its not like they'll be replacing cheering Rebel troops, they'll most likely be inserted in place of some celebrating...ewoks. Not a huge step down. But poor, poor ESB. And it didn't have to be so.



You could always just ignore the existance of the SEs.  No need to let anyone bring down something you enjoy.


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## John Crichton (Jul 28, 2004)

reanjr said:
			
		

> It's not that he hates you SW people. He just doesn't respect you. He's content taking your money over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again for the same schlock. You're gonna pay for it anyway. And by updating some things, he might be able to get some 10-20 year olds to buy them as well. Those are the customers he cares about. You guys are shoe-ins and under the point of consideration.



Hey, sounds like a business to me.




			
				KenM said:
			
		

> At least Peter Jackson said from the start of him doing Lord of the Rings that he would be doing both a theactical cut and extended edtion of each movie. Honest with us from the start.



Bah.  We have no idea what Jackson will do in the future.  Nor does he have the same stake in LotR as Lucas does in Star Wars.  Lucas is Star Wars.  Jackson adapted an already classic story.  There is a difference.

Not to mention that when it came out, Lucas had no idea Star Wars would make it past the first film.

I'm not putting down Jackson.  He did a wonderful job overall but the comparisons make no sense to me.  The only comparison between the two, to me (considering I've never met either of them), is that Jackson is much better director and always has been.

All of the marketing stuff and so on means next to nothing.  I can't fault Lucas for feeding the Star Wars frenzy.  If people didn't want the stuff then he wouldn't be making it.  Same goes for all successful businesses.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 28, 2004)

A guy on LiveJournal has posted links to some pics/screen caps of changes in the new DVD sets. You can find the entry here.

Just thought I'd share, for good or ill.


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## John Crichton (Jul 28, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> A guy on LiveJournal has posted links to some pics/screen caps of changes in the new DVD sets. You can find the entry here.
> 
> Just thought I'd share, for good or ill.



 Ah, thankee for the linkage.

I will most likely not be checking them out as these days I try to avoid all spoilers for anything I plan on watching in the future.  

But I may be tempted...


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## ironmani (Jul 28, 2004)

I bet Lucas is sitting at the Skywalker ranch going, "They spent how much even after I changed it? Damn lets see how far I can push it then!"
Adding Jabba to ANH. I can deal with that. Its all good.
Greedo shooting first? WTF? 
Hayden being added at the end? Double WTF!?!?!?!?!?!
Thank god I got the orginals on VHS. Once a year, I break them out, bask in thier glory, and then seal them up again.


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## Kai Lord (Jul 28, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> A guy on LiveJournal has posted links to some pics/screen caps of changes in the new DVD sets. Just thought I'd share, for good or ill.



Well I will say that the new ANH Jabba looks a thousand times better than the old one.  And thank God its still Sebastian Shaw when Luke removes the helmet.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 28, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Well I will say that the new ANH Jabba looks a thousand times better than the old one.  And thank God its still Sebastian Shaw when Luke removes the helmet.



 Everything looks good, actually. That Sebastian Shaw picture looks much better with it as pale as it is now.


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## Laurel (Jul 28, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Okay maybe not, but close enough:
> http://www.dvdfile.com/software/dvd-video/archive/2004/07_25.html





every good movie has that good character you need to cheer on since he's good but man do you hate him.  And if this is all the show up then no biggy in my mind.  It's just another change Lucas feels may tie the horrible 1-3 with the good 4-6.


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## Orius (Jul 28, 2004)

A few thoughts:

 Improved Jabba graphics are good.  This scene was something Lucas originally filmed, but dropped because he couldn't come up with a good concept for Jabba.  The original footage has some fat guy in a furry suit.  I'd rather have the CGI Jabba.  

 Improved Emperor graphics from ESB are good too.  The original does look bad after nearly 25 years.  Not to mention continuity problems; hologram from Eps 1-3 look better than holograms from Eps 4-6 which take place afterwards.

 No problem with Naboo celebrating, I suppose this will be stuck in at the end of RotJ where the whole galaxy celebrates the death of Palpatine.  RotJ SE gave us a first glimpse of Coruscant, even though it was never part of the OT, so showing Naboo isn't a big deal to me.

 Vader's lightsaber properly colored: maked it look more professional or whatever.  Some of the lightsaber effects, especially in the original Star Wars look bad.  It would be good if he also removed the lightsaber shadows from the final duel in RotJ.

 Greedo still shoots first: Boo! Hiss!

 Anakin's ghost turns into young punk Anakin: Boo! Hiss!


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## mojo1701 (Jul 28, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> Anakin's ghost turns into young punk Anakin: Boo! Hiss!




What if it's "what Anaking would've looked like if he hadn't turned Vader" type of thing? Not exactly Hayden Christensen, but quite a bit more aged.


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## Klaus (Jul 28, 2004)

We already have that, in the person of the great Sebastian Shaw. He's what Anakin would've looked like, had he not fallen to the Dark Side.


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## Taelorn76 (Jul 28, 2004)

I like the old picture of the emperor (withthe green eyes). I think that it looks more menacing than the new one.


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## Kai Lord (Jul 29, 2004)

I'm wholeheartedly looking forward to the new SW:SE.  All the changes look to be improvements over the previous SE.  I really don't mind the Jabba scene.  It may not flow as smoothly as without, but it was filmed in 1976 and is indeed a piece of SW history.  It might be an editing revision, but it isn't a story revision, which I think is a key distinction.

To the coloring of Vader's lightsaber, I can only say FINALLY.  That was literally the first thing I was assuming they'd fix for 1997 and was shocked to see it in plain white magnified onto a giant theater screen.  The correction will make the whole SE endeaver feel more complete.

The *only* thing I'm not happy with in the SE is the Greedo scene, but it doesn't trump all the good of the new X-Wing footage at the end and other enhancments throughout.  So the SE has a less cool Han opener and a more thrilling Death Star battle.  I'll have to side in favor of the SE, Death Star all the way.

I just hope they redo Red Leader's collision with the Death Star!  One of the worst effects in the whole trilogy and they could make it look so badass!  Hope they do.  But I figure if it had been changed we would have seen a shot of it on that site Mouseferatu linked to.  Oh well.  The other change I'd make is when Han says, "Don't worry, I know a few maneuvers, we'll lose 'em," and then they cut to the Falcon flying IN A STRAIGHT LINE.  Whoa, those are some maneuvers Han.  I'd like it if they replaced that shot with a juking and rolling Falcon.

And with all the furor toward Lucas over Greedo, the funny thing is I honestly don't believe he *likes* the new scene.  Its just that he didn't want it to look like Han was shooting a guy who wasn't a split second a way from shooting him.  What Lucas doesn't understand is that we all *know* that Greedo was about to blast Han, we knew it 27 years ago and we know it today.  But for whatever reason he thinks it makes Han look like more than a scroundel, he thinks it makes him look like a cold blooded killer.

Given that that's George's perception of the scene, I can respect his decision.  A good message and good morals are more important than even the "kewlest" of scenes, the problem is George didn't have enough to work with to revise the scene and still make it "kewl."  They couldn't do the whole scene over with a 35 year old Harrison Ford, and who knows if any of those set pieces are still even in existence.  Which left George to play around with the editing and try and pick a shot where Greedo's blaster wasn't pointed directly at Han's face.

I'm sure George cringes just as much as we do at how sloppy and contrived the whole thing looks, I mean really all it would have taken was a hilarious wise crack from Han at the expense of Greedo's aim at the end of the scene and we would have all been clapping and laughing our asses off.  But that just wasn't an option and its hardly a pivotal scene in the overall story (unlike say, Luke's decision to *silently* fall to his death in Bespin...) so I don't see it as a huge deal.

The ESB:SE is pretty much DOA for me, however, for reasons already mentioned.  Confirmation that all of Jeremy Bulloch's lines as Boba Fett have been redubbed by Temeira Merueson(sp) and the dialogue change between Vader and the Emperor just seals the deal.  They might as well have Snowtroopers storming echo base with walkie-talkies and Gungans cheering when Luke gets his new hand.  I'll keep my laserdisc player hooked up to my TV and will just watch the THX LD until I pick up a bootleg DVD of the original.

Which leaves ROTJ:SE.  A lot of notsalgia and some great moments, but its always had its fair share of unkewlness.  Luke not actually cutting anyone with his lightsaber at the Sarlacc Pit.  The atrocious acting when Harrison Ford and Billy Dee Williams part company on the Rebel Cruiser.  The lazy Leia-as-Luke's sister subplot.  Ewoks.  And so on.  Now if they cut out that badass shot of Luke standing in front of Vader's blazing funeral pyre and replace it with cheering gungans then I'd be pissed.  But cutting out two seconds of dorky ewoks celebrating and replacing it with two seconds of dorky gungans celebrating isn't that huge a step down.  A step down yes, but it doesn't break the movie.

I can even live with Anakin's ghost morphing back to Hayden Christiansen.  At least it doesn't morph into Jake Lloyd!  Oh the horror!


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## Knightfall (Jul 29, 2004)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Remind you of South Park: "Free Hat" anyone?




Funny. That episode was just on Teletoon here in Canada tonight. Then I went online and read this thread for the first time.  

Where's a rocket-wielding kiddie drug addict when you need 'em. Shame on George!


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## Kai Lord (Jul 29, 2004)

Well what do you you know, some good freaking news about the new ESB:SE.

Luke no longer screams when he lets go of the gantry in Cloud City!  Hallelujah.  Literally the worst revision in cinema history, in my mind.  Thank God its been undone.  Nice one George.  For LOTS more spoilers about the new changes on the upcoming DVD's, check out the forum here:  http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf...did=183770&perpage=30&display=&pagenumber=234


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## Taelorn76 (Jul 29, 2004)

Hearing people talk about having the original remastered versions of the movies on VHS, well it's making me want to get some copies for myself. Question is what year(s) were they released?


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## The Mad Kaiser (Jul 29, 2004)

Khayman said:
			
		

> At which point did Lucas start hating us?




He always felt superior to us, but when we pointed out what a 'parsec' was for the ten-zillionth time, he lost it.


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## Orius (Jul 29, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> I'm wholeheartedly looking forward to the new SW:SE. All the changes look to be improvements over the previous SE. I really don't mind the Jabba scene. It may not flow as smoothly as without, but it was filmed in 1976 and is indeed a piece of SW history. It might be an editing revision, but it isn't a story revision, which I think is a key distinction.



 Yeah, I agree completely.  The Jabba scene is part of the story, it was originally filmed, and even the novelzation of the movie includes it.  It was cut because Lucas couldn't come up with a goo concept for Jabba at the time, and stayed cut when slug Jabba was introduced in Jedi.



> The ESB:SE is pretty much DOA for me, however, for reasons already mentioned. Confirmation that all of Jeremy Bulloch's lines as Boba Fett have been redubbed by Temeira Merueson(sp) and the dialogue change between Vader and the Emperor just seals the deal. They might as well have Snowtroopers storming echo base with walkie-talkies and Gungans cheering when Luke gets his new hand. I'll keep my laserdisc player hooked up to my TV and will just watch the THX LD until I pick up a bootleg DVD of the original.



 I disagree.  Luke screaming is pathetic, Vader's redub is horrible, and I could live without the "improved" wampa.  Still there's the transparency fix with the snowspeeders during the fight with the walkers, and the more open view of Bespin with the windows and such look pretty good.  I'd have to say though, that Empire was a pretty solid movie to begin with, and there's little reason to go back and redo most of it.



> But cutting out two seconds of dorky ewoks celebrating and replacing it with two seconds of dorky gungans celebrating isn't that huge a step down. A step down yes, but it doesn't break the movie.



 The picture that was on the website given above looked like a shot of that city where a lot of the action takes place in TPM.  So the scene will probably be a long the lines of the celebration scenes that are already in SE Jedi.


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## mojo1701 (Jul 29, 2004)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> Where's a rocket-wielding kiddie drug addict when you need 'em. Shame on George!




"The Tweeked-out Kid?"  - Steven Spielberg

He's more of a caffeine junkie, since his dad owns a coffee shop, just so you know.

And I need a list of the final celebration shots for RotJ:SE:

- Endor (well, duh)
- Coruscant
- Naboo
- Cloud City

what else? Kashyyyk?


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## Knightfall (Jul 30, 2004)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> "The Tweeked-out Kid?"  - Steven Spielberg
> 
> He's more of a caffeine junkie, since his dad owns a coffee shop, just so you know.




Ah, that's makes more sense. I could have sworn I heard a line in the show that mentioned 'coccaine'. Guess I was wrong. I wasn't paying attention 100% while it was on.


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## mojo1701 (Jul 30, 2004)

Look what I found.


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