# More Flails, Maces & MorningStars Questions - Descriptions



## sjmiller (Dec 13, 2005)

I’ve been reading through E.N. Arsenal – Flails, Maces & MorningStars, and I am a bit confused by some of the descriptions (or lack thereof).  Under the Variants section there is a weapon called a *Flail-Mace*.  The description of the weapon, in part, says:



> The head of the mace is square-shaped with a chain link attached to the centre of each side. This chain link leads down into the interior of the shaft. When the ring is turned to unlock the head; the head springs free of the shaft and separates into four separate heads. *The heads are half spheres; with the flat parts becoming the outside of the mace head.* When locked as a mace; *the four heads fit snugly together along their curved sides to form a cube.*



The bold parts are what have me confused.  I’ve tried to work this out in my head, and even tried to figure it out using some paper cutouts.  Geometry seems to tell me that this description is not possible.  I can see it working if the heads were diamond-shaped, or even if the outer face was rounded and each head formed a quarter of a sphere.  Am I missing something here, or is the description just not practical?

I’ll skip over the *Godentag*, since I could spend quite some time on this.  Let’s just say that the description given doesn’t match any of the archeological evidence I have seen for the weapon.

The *King’s Walking Stick* has me rather baffled.  There seems to be no description of this at all!  This is a weapon that, more than any of the others, needs a description and illustration to make it useful.  Where do the pistols fit into this thing?  How many pistols are there?  How are they loaded?

Speaking of loading, these pistols must have some gigantic barrels if the ammunition information means anything.  It says that a bag of lead shot weighs 5 pounds, and that there are 10 round per bag.  That means they weigh about half a pound per shot.  Since lead runs at about 0.41 pounds per cubic inch, that means each round is close to a cubic inch in size.  That means the caliber of the round is well over .90, and the biggest caliber musket ball I could find was in the .70 to .75 range.  If the round is .90 caliber, that means the inside diameter of the barrel is 0.9 inches!  That’s huge!

The *Mace-Axe* isn’t quite as confusing, but I want to make sure I am seeing this right.  The weapon description says:


> This strange weapon looks much like a battle axe with a half-sphere attached on either side of the axe-blade allowing the weapon to both cleave and crush.



Now, am I right in thinking that it looks rather like a ball with two axe-heads sticking out of it?  So, to effectively use the mace aspect of the weapon one would turn the weapon so that you hit with the flat of the blade and the ball as well, right?  Does this make sense?

I am trying really hard to like this book, but there are aspects like those described above that are making that a difficult task.


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 6, 2006)

This thread used to have a better description by RW... now the product isn't even on ENGS anymore.


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## Knight Otu (Aug 6, 2006)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> This thread used to have a better description by RW... now the product isn't even on ENGS anymore.



Unless it was fixed after your post, the similar products bar links right to it.

Ah, and lets' try this affiliate thing just for the fun of it. Here's another link.


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 6, 2006)

Ah, hm, well it doesn't show up here:
http://shop.enworld.org/index.php?do=category&categoryid=83
Like you'd think it would.

Also the "Read the Reviews" link for for page you linked to doesn't show reviews for the product... I'm trying to add my own review, and there's usually a handy link to it somewhere.

It'd still like RW's descriptions again, though! They were better than in the product itself.


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## Knight Otu (Aug 6, 2006)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Ah, hm, well it doesn't show up here:
> http://shop.enworld.org/index.php?do=category&categoryid=83
> Like you'd think it would.
> 
> ...



Interesting, it also seems to not be in the list of covers for E.N.Publishing. But it is part of the Arsenal bundle, and on the list of all E.N.Publishing products below the bundles.


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 6, 2006)

Yeah, I figured RW would, at least, want to know about this (since it could conceivably affect sales), and I mentioned it in a thread in Meta, but I'm not sure who'd be the one to look into/fix that.


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## ElectricDragon (Aug 6, 2006)

The two reviews of the product disappeared when the boards went down last time. Unfortunately, I did not make copies of the reviews, so there is nothing I can do about it.

I can answer the OP again, though if that would help.

As far as the Flail-Mace, I had a friend of mine do some 3-d drawings of it where it did seem to work. I am not good at any kind of pics, nor do I know how to add them to posts; but I will try to figure it out, scan the pic, and add it to this post if I can. (Scanning will be the first problem).

Godentag: This book is not an actual historical reference, some changes had to be made for the sake of the game. The godentag and godendag though similar in name were actually different weapons and both were called by either name. The one presented in the book is described as mace-like with a longer handle and an enlongated spike on top of the mace-head (or in some descriptions hammer-head). It was first used by Flemish militia to take out mounted French knights, often doubling as an anti-charge weapon. The weapon could be used one-handed but was actually mostly used two-handed because of the long handle. The French took the weapon home with them. For game terms, I had to go with one-handed for my godentag or come up with a special rule for allowing it to be used one-handed. The other weapon, the axe-pike-pick version, was also used against the French by the Flemish, it was specifically a two-handed weapon. 

The king's walking stick is an actual weapon (for which I could not find any pictures only descriptions) called King Henry's Walking Stick. I had to drop the real-world reference to Henry but otherwise kept it the same. The weights are not real-world weights but a holdover from 1e-2e where weight and encumbrance were combined according to how difficult the item was to store and carry: e.g. a 10-lb. block of wood would weigh less than a 10-lb. door by basis of how hard it was to carry.
The weight of the lead shots are only a close approximation, closely aligned to the sling bullet and the information I used from EN Arsenal, Pistols.
The number of pistols can be figured from the amount of extra cash it would take to make each pistol masterwork (+1200 gp, or 4); but that should have been mentioned specifically in the description. Sorry, silly me.

Mace-Axe: You could turn the weapon sideways to deal non-lethal or subdual damage just like with a sword. But the axeblade cleaves into the target while the spheres crush the area around the wound dealing both damages at once. The weapon is not listed as slashing *or* bludgeoning.

I hope this helped you.

Ciao
Dave


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 6, 2006)

Thanks Dave!

Mine was one of the two reviews before the crash, I believe, and I recently found it and added it back today. The mace-flail, for example, has a kind of awkward description in the text, in my opinion, and I remember that being addressed with a better description in a thread on here... I thought it was by RW, but I'm probably mistaken.

Though, if you can get it up, a picture would be very useful (I also mention in my review that there should be a picture of such things), and hopefully your friend can help you with that.


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## ElectricDragon (Aug 7, 2006)

FWIW: the spell Weeping Wounds as well as the Ripping ability came from EN Arsenal, Spiked Chain. I missed the reference to the spell or the spell would have been included, too.

*Weeping Wounds*
_Necromancy_
*Level:* Sor/Wiz 1, Blk 1, Raveller 1
*Components:* V, S, F/DF
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:* Close (25 ft. + 5 ft. / 2 levels)
*Effect:* Ray
*Duration:* 2 rounds/level
*Saving Throw:* None
*Spell Resistance:* Yes
This spell accelerates injuries with small amounts of negative energy.
By infecting the target with a minute amount of negative energy, this spell accelerates injuries to living tissue and makes wounds more serious. Even a small scratch from a spike can be made to bleed more heavily, the flesh around it turning septic as the spell works its dark magic.
A ranged touch attack must be made against the subject. If successful, the subject will take an additional 1d6 damage every time it takes damage from any weapon or
non-energy damage source for the duration of the spell. 
This spell has no effect on undead, constructs, animated objects, outsiders and oozes.
*Arcane Focus:* A ragged and rough spike, knife or saw.

The Instant Grab spell does have its uses. Starting a grapple without provoking an AoO and gaining a +6 bonus the initial round is powerful for an immediate action spell. The option to also use this spell to negate having to have a ring of feather falling on your finger or to be able to catch your falling comrade is also useful. The 2nd and 3rd uses of the spell probably should have been combined into one use, as their effects and duration are the same; but one incorporates a virtual feat while the other does not. Only if you consider the Deflect Arrows/Snatch Arrows feats too weak should this option be considered useless.

Power Word Disarm can only affect up to 5 large size or smaller creatures (if the caster is at least 10th level and all the creatures are in a 15-ft-radius and all hold one-handed or smaller weapons). A 3rd level fighter with the Improved Disarm feat can easily disarm someone each round. Why is this spell overpowered? This is a defensive spell for the "Oops they ran past the fighter and are all charging me! What do I do with no armor and no hp" situation. Does it stop anyone? No, it only slows them down to give the caster time to get up a defense or to run away to a safer area. It does not affect two-handed weapons or double weapons so that minotaur with the greataxe is still coming even if his companions all dropped their morningstars. You are right that I should have addressed the gauntlet issue. How about this: "A gauntlet, a spiked gauntlet, or any weapon in a locked gauntlet cannot be affected by this spell."

The Darkness domain is in the SRD in the Divine section, as are the "Darkness" spells. Most people do not realize that there are other spells and domains in that section and so we reprinted it.

The painted witch doctor should have had this line also: "*Race:* Any giant, humanoid *(except humans)* or monstrous humanoid." It makes a big difference as to what level the PrC can be taken at.

I won't apologise for the painted face abilities. If the goblin can arrange it to use those abilities in combat; he will be a force to be reckoned with; if not, he can fall back on his Imbue Badge ability to make fear/paralyze/petrify/death touch attacks for up to 10 rounds at a time. If he has taken the time (and who wouldn't) that morning to bind a spirit into his badge, he has a magic weapon for free to help deal those attacks and provide self- or tribal-healing of various types. Yes his caster level for his spells is limited to 10th; I don't see that as a problem for a tribal caster. He will always have mook backup as well as more powerful warriors, maybe even an adept or two, and (in the case of goblins) possibly a blue. Add in traps, forced and limited trail possibilities, and ambushes; and perhaps he does have time to "put on his face" before battle after all.

The shadow lord: originally the flail stopped at +4 because it gained reach (an ability not available for the mace). After several rounds of edits, the flail also lost a point of enchantment to gain the reach; so it should have been reinstated to +5 max. Probably like this: 3rd:+1, 4th:+2, 6th:+3, 8th:+4, 10th:+5.

The handle of the flail-mace is a hollow metal tube in which the chain is stored while in mace form. A strong spring mechanism at the top of the tube helps push the balls and chain out when changing to flail, also allowing the weapon to be used as an impromptu ranged weapon. A collar at the tube top can be turned to either lock the mace heads together or to release them so the spring pushes them out. Threading the chains back into the tube and pushing the heads into place while turning the collar to the locking position takes more time and effort than releasing them. This should probably have been listed as a gnomish device; I don't know why I didn't think of that before now, except that would make most of the small sized.

I meant to get back to this yesterday to give you better descriptions for your review but real life has a habit of jumping in the way sometimes.

If there is anything else you would like to know or if this is not enough, let me know and I'll try to add more.

Ciao
Dave


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 7, 2006)

I'd like to start by saying that a) I don't know what 'FWIW' stands for (and I'm on the internet? How dare I?!), b) I didn't expect a response to the review since it's inherently largely opinion and not meant to be necessarily definitive, and c) if there were to be a response, a direct response to the review would probably be better, since I don't expect everyone who reads the review to come into this forum (this is a relatively low traffic forum) and such a discussion is, in theory, to the benefit of a would-be consumer reading the review.

But, if you want to talk about it, let's talk about it.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> FWIW: the spell Weeping Wounds as well as the Ripping ability came from EN Arsenal, Spiked Chain. I missed the reference to the spell or the spell would have been included, too.
> 
> *Weeping Wounds*
> _Necromancy_
> *Level:* Sor/Wiz 1, Blk 1, Raveller 1



Thanks for including the spell. It doesn't change my opinion of the pdf since I tend to consider such an item being taken as-is. If you supplemented the pdf with such relevant information, that'd certainly be cool. Also, if you included this spell, I'd have to ask--what do "Blk" and "Raveller" refer to? You might want to drop those from your description, or have a note saying "These classes presented in (this other work)."


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> The Instant Grab spell does have its uses. Starting a grapple without provoking an AoO and gaining a +6 bonus the initial round is powerful for an immediate action spell. The option to also use this spell to negate having to have a ring of feather falling on your finger or to be able to catch your falling comrade is also useful. The 2nd and 3rd uses of the spell probably should have been combined into one use, as their effects and duration are the same; but one incorporates a virtual feat while the other does not. Only if you consider the Deflect Arrows/Snatch Arrows feats too weak should this option be considered useless.



That's true. Part of my logic was based on the fact that it's extremely rare (in my experience, at least) for a Paladin to have a hand free, much less two (for grappling).

And, remember, Paladin 3 / Ranger 3? You expect these classes to use what is probably their only spell at 11th level on this? I think this spell is marginally useful, but I wouldn't ever expect anyone to actually prepare this spell in one of his slots, much less a high level slot.

Though, that's my opinion. Yours obviously varies. In the review, I tried to have a disclaimer about different opinions of spell level.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> Power Word Disarm can only affect up to 5 large size or smaller creatures (if the caster is at least 10th level and all the creatures are in a 15-ft-radius and all hold one-handed or smaller weapons). A 3rd level fighter with the Improved Disarm feat can easily disarm someone each round. Why is this spell overpowered?



Because it's multiple people at once, there's no save (a 3rd level Fighter with the Improved Disarm feat still has to roll and has a chance of failure), it forces the defender to drop all weapons (a 3rd level Fighter can't disarm both of a TWFers weapons in a round, to my knowledge), it causes a penalty to the defender (again, no save, and this is now more powerful than a Disarm), and it works against incorporeal creatures (still with no save).


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> This is a defensive spell for the "Oops they ran past the fighter and are all charging me! What do I do with no armor and no hp" situation. Does it stop anyone? No, it only slows them down to give the caster time to get up a defense or to run away to a safer area.



You could see it that way... but what if it's used in an offensive manner? "Oh, there's a platoon of Fighters fighting my guards... thank goodness I don't need to be a high level Wizard to make them all useless in a single round." If it were only a defensive spell used in the occasion a baddie got past the tank, it wouldn't be a 15' radius sphere.

Again, my opinion.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> It does not affect two-handed weapons or double weapons so that minotaur with the greataxe is still coming even if his companions all dropped their morningstars. You are right that I should have addressed the gauntlet issue. How about this: "A gauntlet, a spiked gauntlet, or any weapon in a locked gauntlet cannot be affected by this spell."



I'd rather the spell affect two-handed weapons if it meant that it'd have a save (Fort) and only affect one target.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> The Darkness domain is in the SRD in the Divine section, as are the "Darkness" spells. Most people do not realize that there are other spells and domains in that section and so we reprinted it.



Ah, I knew that, but I forgot it. I expect products to only assume the three core books, and so I didn't think to look in the SRD. I should have mentioned that the domain comes from there, but I can still give my opinion of it, can't I?  I do think it's odd that it doesn't have the Darkness spell. It was a minor comment, anyway.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> The painted witch doctor should have had this line also: "*Race:* Any giant, humanoid *(except humans)* or monstrous humanoid." It makes a big difference as to what level the PrC can be taken at.



That's a shame, I thought the idea of a Human barbarian tribe would be neat. I'm not sure it makes a significant different, balance-wise, though.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> I won't apologise for the painted face abilities.



And I don't expect you to. I don't expect everyone's opinion to mesh with my own. I don't think it's inconceivable that a PC would take this class, and that's the assumption I took. 


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> he does have time to "put on his face" before battle after all.



It still takes a mighty long time. I'd imagine a tribal leader such as him would have other things to worry about.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> The shadow lord: originally the flail stopped at +4 because it gained reach (an ability not available for the mace). After several rounds of edits, the flail also lost a point of enchantment to gain the reach; so it should have been reinstated to +5 max. Probably like this: 3rd:+1, 4th:+2, 6th:+3, 8th:+4, 10th:+5.



Oh, okay. Interesting.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> The handle of the flail-mace is a hollow metal tube in which the chain is stored while in mace form. A strong spring mechanism at the top of the tube helps push the balls and chain out when changing to flail, also allowing the weapon to be used as an impromptu ranged weapon. A collar at the tube top can be turned to either lock the mace heads together or to release them so the spring pushes them out. Threading the chains back into the tube and pushing the heads into place while turning the collar to the locking position takes more time and effort than releasing them. This should probably have been listed as a gnomish device; I don't know why I didn't think of that before now, except that would make most of the small sized.



Well, small sized weapons can be found in other sizes anyway. Good description, and I look forward to seeing a picture (if you're able to do that).


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> I meant to get back to this yesterday to give you better descriptions for your review but real life has a habit of jumping in the way sometimes.
> 
> If there is anything else you would like to know or if this is not enough, let me know and I'll try to add more.



No, that's more than I expected. I didn't expect a response at all. I'm not sure what the review-ettiquette stance on edits are, but I think comments are probably more common to include information like the above. I could, alternately, put in bracketed edits to include some some of the stuff (particularly the information on the Shadow Lord's flail). Are erattas common in the world of pdf's? I'm not sure what your options are as far as informing the masses of possible fixes.


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## Knight Otu (Aug 7, 2006)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> a) I don't know what 'FWIW' stands for (and I'm on the internet? How dare I?!)



*F*or *w*hat *i*t's *w*orth.



			
				Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> what do "Blk" and "Raveller" refer to?



No idea on raveller, but Blk should be Blackguard.


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## ElectricDragon (Aug 8, 2006)

I have no option to post a reply to your review where consumers would see it; though I think RW and others do. I think .pdf's can be pretty easily changed, but I've been having problems getting in touch with the people who could do that.

FWIW is "for what its worth".

Blk is Blackguard
Raveller is a PrC from Spiked Chain. I will take your suggestions to heart and hopefully get some changes...

I'd say Instant Grab is right up there in usefulness with Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Discern Lies (for Paladin), Command Plants, Neutralize Poison, and Remove Disease (for Rangers). All these spells are not commonly memorized unless specific knowledge of upcoming situations is known. Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, and sometimes Remove Curse can often be memorized after the fact to clear up that condition problem. But unless you know that you are going up against a liar, a poisonous creature, or a plant creature the other three are only so much baggage. With its versatility, Instant Grab offers a package of uses operatable as an immediate action choice. But again, that is my opinion. In my opinion, Ranger and Paladin spells of all levels are weak and mostly pointless unless the party has no other casters.

Disarm: okay, I see your point. A 3rd level fighter has a chance to not disarm, but he also has the hp and AC to withstand having to try more than once. Realize that at 3rd level only one creature can be affected, at 4-5th level only two creatures are possible, at 6-7th level 3 creatures, up to the max of 5 at 10th level. It affects no more creatures than Magic Missile and does no damage. Both are Force effects, both allow no save, one deals damage and one disarms. 
I am thinking of changing the spell to affect all weapons of all kinds if one target (large or smaller creatures), and only one weapon/creature if multiple targets (not double or two-handed weapons, medium or smaller creatures) and reduce the area to 10-ft. radius. Allowing a save would make this non-damaging, non condition-altering spell useless. e.g. I cast it at the ogre: he saves, I die. Or I cast it at those two goblins, one saves and keeps me busy until they can both gang up on me. At least with Magic Missile, I could probably kill one goblin. A Fort save would mean the spell would hardly ever work against the people who are really dangerous with weapons in their hands.
A 3rd level TWF can disarm another TWF of both weapons in one round.
As an offense, this spell could allow the caster to disarm several opponents while the tanks charged in to combat. Making the opponents provoke an AoO for retrieving the weapon or backstepping to draw another weapon would be the caster's contribution to the battle. Why is this overpowered vs. dealing auto damage to each opponent instead. I have no problem changing things I've made up but I want to understand why first.

The Painted Witch Doctor's prereqs allow a human to take the class at 2nd level, not so any other race. The painted witch doctor is not the tribal leader (except in spiritual matters), the chieftain still rules; in fact, the PWD often sets himself up separate from the tribe to better commune with the spirits. So, if the tribe's lair is attacked, he still has some time to prepare before either he joins the battle or it comes to him. Nevertheless, he should have his own guards and apprentices. The human barbarian "witch doctor" in my honest opinion is best defined by the Adept NPC class or the Spirit Shaman class (from Complete Divine). This one was made for those uncivilized, tribal humanoids that don't fit into respectible society like the human barbarian often does.

Darkness Domain: I agree that the darkness spell should have been on the list, but since it actually creates shadowy illumination instead of true darkness I can see the reasoning. In true darkness, a darkness spell would allow limited normal vision in a 40-ft. diameter and double that for low-light vision.

I'm now off to find a scanner if possible. I enjoyed this and hope to get some edits in for FMM soon. I am not trying to change your opinion of anything in the book but rather to explain how I see it instead.

Again, I enjoyed this discussion.

Ciao
Dave


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 10, 2006)

ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> I have no option to post a reply to your review where consumers would see it; though I think RW and others do. I think .pdf's can be pretty easily changed, but I've been having problems getting in touch with the people who could do that.



I thought anyone could reply to a review.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> FWIW is "for what its worth".
> 
> Blk is Blackguard
> Raveller is a PrC from Spiked Chain. I will take your suggestions to heart and hopefully get some changes...



Thanks! (you too, KO2)


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> I'd say Instant Grab is right up there in usefulness with Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Discern Lies (for Paladin), Command Plants, Neutralize Poison, and Remove Disease (for Rangers). All these spells are not commonly memorized unless specific knowledge of upcoming situations is known. Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, and sometimes Remove Curse can often be memorized after the fact to clear up that condition problem. But unless you know that you are going up against a liar, a poisonous creature, or a plant creature the other three are only so much baggage. With its versatility, Instant Grab offers a package of uses operatable as an immediate action choice. But again, that is my opinion. In my opinion, Ranger and Paladin spells of all levels are weak and mostly pointless unless the party has no other casters.



You have some good points, and maybe the overall weakness of Ranger and Paladin spells are throwing me off. When I look for spells for those classes, I more often than not look in other sources for better or more useful spells. 


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> Disarm: okay, I see your point. A 3rd level fighter has a chance to not disarm, but he also has the hp and AC to withstand having to try more than once. Realize that at 3rd level only one creature can be affected, at 4-5th level only two creatures are possible, at 6-7th level 3 creatures, up to the max of 5 at 10th level. It affects no more creatures than Magic Missile and does no damage. Both are Force effects, both allow no save, one deals damage and one disarms.



Magic Missle is pretty minor damage, and it does allow SR. If Power World Disarm is used as an offensive spell by a back-line Wizard casting it to help a front line Fighter to affect a single enemy, the enemy loses a full round of attacks, suffers a -1 penalty, and provokes an AoO. That's a lot.

Also, it occured to me: what if the enemy is using a shield as a weapon? Even if he's not, a shield can be used as a weapon. Would this spell apply to shields?


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> I am thinking of changing the spell to affect all weapons of all kinds if one target (large or smaller creatures), and only one weapon/creature if multiple targets (not double or two-handed weapons, medium or smaller creatures) and reduce the area to 10-ft. radius. Allowing a save would make this non-damaging, non condition-altering spell useless. e.g. I cast it at the ogre: he saves, I die. Or I cast it at those two goblins, one saves and keeps me busy until they can both gang up on me. At least with Magic Missile, I could probably kill one goblin. A Fort save would mean the spell would hardly ever work against the people who are really dangerous with weapons in their hands.



A Will save might make more sense.

Thing is, in my opinion, as a defensive spell, a Fort save would make this a pretty weak spell (though, could be 1st or 2nd level), and as an offensive spell, no save makes it too powerful. As a defensive spell, a 15' radius might be justified, but as an offensive spell, being able to affect multiple people makes it too powerful (particularly without a save). I don't think changing it to 10' makes a huge difference. The problem is that this spell can be used offensively about as easily as it can be used defensively.

And remember, this spell works just as easily on BBEGs as it does mooks. Forcing the BBEG to drop his super-cool weapon (heck, forcing a Balor to drop all of his weapons) or to drop his staff (if you apply that proposed change) is pretty significant.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> The Painted Witch Doctor's prereqs allow a human to take the class at 2nd level, not so any other race. The painted witch doctor is not the tribal leader (except in spiritual matters), the chieftain still rules; in fact, the PWD often sets himself up separate from the tribe to better commune with the spirits.



In some tribal societies, the witch doctor is the leader. Just because the flavor text in your description doesn't allow for that doesn't mean it can't happen.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> So, if the tribe's lair is attacked, he still has some time to prepare before either he joins the battle or it comes to him. Nevertheless, he should have his own guards and apprentices. The human barbarian "witch doctor" in my honest opinion is best defined by the Adept NPC class or the Spirit Shaman class (from Complete Divine). This one was made for those uncivilized, tribal humanoids that don't fit into respectible society like the human barbarian often does.



As I said earlier, I dont' think it's inconceivable that a PC would make a witch doctor character and want to take this PrC. Since that's the stance I took with this, the long preparation times are pretty ridiculous.

And I don't think the Adept NPC or the Spirit Shaman are nearly as neat as the human barbarian "witch doctor," and I can imagine a Human wanting to specialize in a class similar to this. I'm not sure what makes Humans different from other Humanoids in this regard, in your opinion, but I think a savage Human tribe can exist in the same manner as an Orc savage tribe. Tribal Humans don't necessarily fit into respectable society. One of the reasons I like the Human race is because they're diverse.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> Darkness Domain: I agree that the darkness spell should have been on the list, but since it actually creates shadowy illumination instead of true darkness I can see the reasoning. In true darkness, a darkness spell would allow limited normal vision in a 40-ft. diameter and double that for low-light vision.



Just an idea, but you could asterisk (or similar) anything that comes from the SRD, for reference.


			
				ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> I'm now off to find a scanner if possible. I enjoyed this and hope to get some edits in for FMM soon. I am not trying to change your opinion of anything in the book but rather to explain how I see it instead.
> 
> Again, I enjoyed this discussion.



And, hopefully, you can understand how I see it as well. Sure, one function of reviews is to explain to customers what the product is, and there are many functions of reviews, but one of them is to show how some customers think/would think about various aspects of the game and various aspects of the product. I try to have well thought-out reviews, and I usually print hard copies of the products so I can scribble notes all over it (which I recently found useful in explaining my logic to you).

Likewise, this discussion has been useful to me to try to see things in a different light--I try to be open-minded and consider different possibilities, but I can't think of everything. A sounding board is nice to have, and I usually don't discuss specifics with my friends because that'd require giving them or showing them my copy of the products, and I worry about the legality of it all. I'd rather convince them to buy the product, but I need a review to do that with.

Thanks for the points! That's why such discussions, such threads, and such forums are so useful.  It would be neat if publishers could link related threads from the product page. There's a 'Read the Reviews!' link, maybe there could be a 'Join the Discussion!' link as well.


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## ElectricDragon (Aug 10, 2006)

Arrg. I have been to the reviews section many times and have failed to see the "Post Comments" button at the bottom. Several times I was actually looking for something like that. Paint me green and call me a newbie.

I will post some comments tomorrow or so (probably just copy/paste something from here). Thanks for the info.

Ciao
Dave


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 10, 2006)

ElectricDragon said:
			
		

> Arrg. I have been to the reviews section many times and have failed to see the "Post Comments" button at the bottom. Several times I was actually looking for something like that. Paint me green and call me a newbie.



You've been here (and in the business) longer than I have. I just think it's funny.


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## ElectricDragon (Aug 10, 2006)

By the way,the preparation of the painted face abilities is tied to the Disguise skill and the maximum of its time to put on a disguise (1d3x10 minutes). I limited the duration because my thoughts were that a death gaze for hours at a time was too much. Gaze attacks require opponents within range to save versus it on their turn and on the Witch Doctor's turn he can actively use the gaze as a standard attack action against one opponent. Meaning it is possible to have to save versus the gaze twice in one round.

What would be your suggestion for changing the prep time and duration of the face painting abilities?

Ciao
Dave


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 11, 2006)

Going back to my notes, I wrote "durations too short or too long to activate."

Paralyzing Face (as the middle-of-the-road example): 30 minute application time for an ability that lasts 2 minutes/level, so no more than 20 minutes. I thought that was pretty crazy.

I theorized that if the Painted Witch Doctor _always_ had his face painted (or usually; either way pretty reasonable, I think), then the painted face abilities could be extra/special dyes/patterns put on the face at the last minute. It would have an application time of 'one round' (not 'full round action', but the full round) and it provokes an AoO (I think that's pretty obvious), and the xp cost is already a mitigating factor. I _might_ double the xp cost, but I'm not sure that's necessary.

With the note I wrote, I'd also be okay with a long activation time, but the ability lasts hours/level, or the full day, or somesuch (since the paint is still there).

Did you have any other ideas?


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## ElectricDragon (Aug 12, 2006)

I think you are right, after re-looking at it. Actually, you nailed the two choices I saw. I prefer to stay with the long application times (though maybe go with the Disguise ability's application time of 1d3x10 minutes) and increase the duration accordingly. Let's see, how about: 2 hours/level for fear and paralyze; 1 hour/level for petrify and kill. That means that when you get the abilities; the face lasts for 6 hours, 10 hours, 7 hours, or 10 hours, respectively. With max times of 20 hours or 10 hours.

Ciao
Dave


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 12, 2006)

That looks just fine to me. I want to look at Death Gaze one more time, but I think it's okay.


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## ElectricDragon (Aug 13, 2006)

Okay, I posted a reply to your review (mainly cut and paste from this thread). But now my problem is: Where did it go? I can't seem to find my comments anywhere or even a button that leads to such. Am I blind? Is the button some weird color that appears invisible to my vision? Did I just post a message into the void? I think I need my valiums.

Ciao
Dave


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 13, 2006)

You mean you can't see the color octarine? 

My guess is that Crothian has to approve a post (just like he has to with reviews) or that the system isn't working (which has been known to happen in the past). It'd probably be prudent to post in Meta.


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 14, 2006)

http://enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3005137


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