# Ginger-ism



## Bullgrit (Jan 17, 2014)

What is with all the red-head hate? Yeah, I get that some of the ragging is possibly not actual hate, but rather just picking on people. But why is picking on this particular group a generally acceptable practice? It is so damn prevelant everywhere. I like surfing the web and reading funny sites like Cheezeburger and 9Gag, and it seems that just about every day there is some joke picking on red-heads. There was even one here on ENWorld some weeks ago. I can't remember where right now, but I believe I saw a ginger "joke" on TV a while back.

I just saw this one:






... and it struck me: If you rearrange the letters in "ginger", you get a "joke" that would never be allowed in any public space.

So where did this red-head hate start, and why has it become the only "-ism" to seemingly gain widespread use as "acceptable" humor? As a culture, we've made it clear that the general populace disapproves of demeaning, belittling, insulting, picking and hating on any group . . . apparently except red heads. How did this double standard happen?

Bullgrit


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 17, 2014)

I dunno, I like redheads. HAWT.

Redheaded step childs, of course, are something else. I like to compare them to WotC treatment of 4E in regards to D&D Next, which might be harsh on them. 

*Disclaimer: I am not actually sure if WotC treats 4E as red headed step child, but it was the only comparison that would be immediately recognizable I could come up with on the spot.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 17, 2014)

Umm ... it's really simple.  The ginger 'hate' isn't real hate at all.  It's all 100% just a joke.  Most people, for example, that say things like 'gingers have no soul' don't even believe souls exist.  That's hardly a real insult then, no?  It's just playing around - there's no evil intent to it at all.  You mention how if we changed up the letters in ginger somewhat we'd arrive at a joke that'd get us all in trouble.  Well, that word is used to hurt, not to joke.  That's the difference.

I have several ginger friends and I bust their chops all the time.  They make fun of me for stuff, too.  We're friends, we joke.  I think that's what you're missing here.  The 'anti-ginger' campaign you're seeing isn't anti-ginger at all.  It's a joke.  Nothing more.  I'm pretty sure most gingers get that, too.

Srsly, sometimes people say things without any mean intent behind it.  What the hell happened to peoples' sense of humor?

EDIT: The easiest way to be offended is to actively look for something offensive.  People see what they want to whether or not it's actually there.  I don't think gingers need a white knight.


----------



## Desdichado (Jan 17, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> ... and it struck me: If you rearrange the letters in "ginger", you get a "joke" that would never be allowed in any public space.



Well, that's completely irrelevent, and in fact, a rather inflammatory non sequiter.  You'd have been better off leaving that alone.


			
				Bullgrit said:
			
		

> So where did this red-head hate start, and why has it become the only "-ism" to seemingly gain widespread use as "acceptable" humor? As a culture, we've made it clear that the general populace disapproves of demeaning, belittling, insulting, picking and hating on any group . . . apparently except red heads. How did this double standard happen?



Now you're being silly.  Blonde jokes are way older than redhead jokes (does anyone besides me not really approve of this new-fangled trend of importing the word "ginger" for redheads from the Brits?  It really only makes sense for the more orangey haired redheads anyway.  And cats.)  I could find many other groups who are routinely demeaned, belittled, insulted, picked upon and hated--publicly--and there's no outcry at all.  And this isn't even any of those things anyway, really.

Don't try to make redheads into some kind of victim category; that's absurd.  I know victimhood--real or contrived--bestows a kind of Sainthood among certain elements of our society, but give it a rest already.  Nobody hates redheads.  And even if they do, redheads can get over it, the same as other groups.


----------



## Umbran (Jan 17, 2014)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I like to compare them to WotC treatment of 4E in regards to D&D Next...




Oh, look!   A reason for red text in a thread about redheads!

Because, clearly, what a thread on hair color needs is edition warring?  

You want to know why there's animosity and factionalization of the player base?  It is this.  The changes of editions do little damage, as compared to the damage we do by being so dogged about it ourselves that we bring it up, no matter the context.

Next time, leave the gaming argument in the gaming argument threads, please and thank you.


----------



## Bullgrit (Jan 17, 2014)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Blonde jokes are way older than redhead jokes



I can't remember the last time I've seen/heard a blonde joke. Are they still used?



> (does anyone besides me not really approve of this new-fangled trend of importing the word "ginger" for redheads from the Brits? It really only makes sense for the more orangey haired redheads anyway. And cats.)



I agree. I've never heard "ginger" used until recent few years, and only for insult/ridicule.



> Don't try to make redheads into some kind of victim category; that's absurd.



I don't like the victimhood culture, either. And I'm not saying pity the red head. I'm just asking since when did they, (anyone, really), become an acceptable target to ridicule in this age of anti-bullying?

Bullgrit


----------



## billd91 (Jan 17, 2014)

Hobo said:


> Don't try to make redheads into some kind of victim category; that's absurd.  I know victimhood--real or contrived--bestows a kind of Sainthood among certain elements of our society, but give it a rest already.  Nobody hates redheads.  And even if they do, redheads can get over it, the same as other groups.




Nobody hates redheads? That's patently not true. There are far too many cases of bullying redheads for the color of their hair to say that. But, it's nowhere near the same levels of oppressiveness as other forms of discrimination. Here's an editorial that helps put it in perspective:
Gingerism is real, but not all prejudices are equal to one another


----------



## Desdichado (Jan 17, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> I agree. I've never heard "ginger" used until recent few years, and only for insult/ridicule.



It's a British slang-term.  I think the vector for bringing it to the US was Harry Potter, since the Weaselies are often called gingers in the books.

I've heard it used plenty of times just as a descriptive term.

In any case, I don't think the idea of making jokes at the expense of redheads is anything new.  The old expression "red-headed stepchild" is older than me by a long-shot.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 17, 2014)

Been that way since I was a child.  Ginger jokes, not blond/e. Pronounced with hard Gs. The word "redhead" isn't used over hear; you're a ginger.

So in answer to your question of "when" - 40 years ago at least. Probably before.

And no, it's not the last acceptable discrimination. Weight, nationality, all these things are apparently acceptable things to be nasty to people about. We have a long way to go yet.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 17, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> I can't remember the last time I've seen/heard a blonde joke. Are they still used?




[sblock=Bad joke!  You have been warned!]A blonde, a brunette and a readhead are sitting in an OB GYN's office.  They're there for their checkups and they get to chatting.  The topic of what sex child they think they're gonna have comes up and the brunette says 'I was on the bottom so that means I'm gonna have a girl.'  The redhead thinks for a second and says 'I was on top so I guess that means I'm gonna have a boy!'  The blonde looks concerned and begins to cry.  The other girls ask her what's wrong and she says 'I'm gonna have puppies!'[/sblock]



> I don't like the victimhood culture, either. And I'm not saying pity the red head. I'm just asking since when did they, (anyone, really), become an acceptable target to ridicule in this age of anti-bullying?
> 
> Bullgrit




Ever since our culture has been hypocritical.  So, you know, since forever.  We say one thing and do another.  It's life as a human being.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 17, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Been that way since I was a child.  Ginger jokes, not blond/e. Pronounced with hard Gs. The word "redhead" isn't used over hear; you're a ginger.
> 
> So in answer to your question of "when" - 40 years ago at least. Probably before.
> 
> And no, it's not the last acceptable discrimination. Weight, nationality, all these things are apparently acceptable things to be nasty to people about. We have a long way to go yet.




I don't think that joking and discrimination are on the same level.  If I call someone a soulless abomination over drinks and in jest it's not quite the same as saying nothing in person but denying them a job over their hair color.  At least not to me it isn't.


----------



## Raunalyn (Jan 17, 2014)

The "gingers have no soul" thing gained notoriety, I think, because of South Park (at least as far as I know). But yes, it's not meant to be serious.


----------



## Bullgrit (Jan 17, 2014)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Weight, nationality, all these things are apparently acceptable things to be nasty to people about.



Are they generally/culturally acceptable as targets? There's a difference between nasty things existing, (like in YouTube comments), and them being acceptable, (like allowed on ENWorld, for example).

Take the joke image above. Replace "ginger" with "fat," or "Mexican" (in the U.S.), or "Irish" (in the U.K.).

But, really, thinking about it, I guess the thing that really makes me bring up this subject is how it's a discrimination that, in my experience/world, has only recently emerged. Of all the discriminations that existed in my world as I grew up, redheads weren't a thing. I knew lots of "dumb blonde" jokes, but never heard any gag about redheads, (other than the old "red-headed step child" thing).

I mean, there's hatred of Muslims now that didn't much exist before, (as it does now), until relatively recently. But we all know why that issue started. (Whether there's any logic/reality to the issue, doesn't matter. We know when it started and why.)

But redheads? What started that hatred recently?

Bullgrit


----------



## Dioltach (Jan 17, 2014)

I'm doing my bit to prevent anti-gingerism: I married one.


----------



## Desdichado (Jan 17, 2014)

billd91 said:


> Nobody hates redheads? That's patently not true. There are far too many cases of bullying redheads for the color of their hair to say that.



Yes, yes, yes... in a population of hundreds of millions in the West, where redheads are more common than elsewhere, then of course you can find a handful of anecdotes of someone being bullied that had red hair and the bullies maybe even using the red hair as an excuse or justification or whatever.

I don't find those handful of anecdotes convincing as evidence of a larger societal trend, nor do I expect that they have any useful predictive factor with regards to the behavior of anyone.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 17, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> Are they generally/culturally acceptable as targets? There's a difference between nasty things existing, (like in YouTube comments), and them being acceptable, (like allowed on ENWorld, for example).
> 
> Take the joke image above. Replace "ginger" with "fat," or "Mexican" (in the U.S.), or "Irish" (in the U.K.).
> 
> ...




Discrimination?  Where?  Again, jokes aren't discrimination.  Saying a ginger has no soul is not the same thing as denying them a job because they're ginger or refusing to allow them to buy a house in your neighborhood because they've got red hair and freckles.  Where are you getting this idea of discrimination from?

Seriously, do you honestly believe there's some great campaign of discrimination being waged against gingers?  Why do you think so (if you do)?  Do you have evidence?  I'm honestly asking because this whole discrimination bit is new to me.

If they _aren't _actually being discriminated against I'd ask you to please stop saying they are.  That does a disservice to people who really are discriminated against by cheapening the word.  _Everyone_ - every group of people imaginable - gets made fun of and has jokes told about them.  That is absolutely, 100% not a form of discrimination.  Discrimination implies actually denying someone something.  That's not happening to gingers - at least not that I'm aware of.


----------



## Umbran (Jan 17, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> Discrimination?  Where?  Again, jokes aren't discrimination.




Oh, they're discrimination.  Very minor discrimination, I admit, but discrimination.

If you're singling out a group for special treatment, you're discriminating - for them if it is positive treatment, against them if it is negative treatment.

We can quibble over whether these jokes are discrimination on a level that we should be concerned about, in the grand scheme of things.

Personally, I figure that making a regular thing out of saying uncomplimentary stuff about groups of people probably isn't a great idea.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 17, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> I don't think that joking and discrimination are on the same level.  If I call someone a soulless abomination over drinks and in jest it's not quite the same as saying nothing in person but denying them a job over their hair color.  At least not to me it isn't.




It's a matter of degree. Calling someone a racial epithet and denying them a job are on the same scale - one's just much further along that scale. Violence is even further, of course. Jokes about hair colour are about as low down the scale as you can get, I agree.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 17, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> But redheads? What started that hatred recently?




Eh? It's not recent. I thought I just explained that!

Maybe it's recent right where you are right now, but that's a local thing. Just means it took a while to get to you. Like I said, it was the insult of choice when I was a kid.

Maybe the question you should be asking is "Why has this societal thing only just reached me?"

To that, I've no idea. But I assure you it's not recent.


----------



## Bullgrit (Jan 17, 2014)

Dioltech said:
			
		

> I'm doing my bit to prevent anti-gingerism: I married one.



Lucky man. I agree with Mustrum_Ridcully: I have a preference for redheads. Sadly, my wife won't dye her hair red because she doesn't want to seem copying one of her friends who has naturally red hair.

Bullgrit


----------



## Raunalyn (Jan 17, 2014)

Dioltach said:


> I'm doing my bit to prevent anti-gingerism: I married one.




Ditto...been with her almost 20 years now.


----------



## Janx (Jan 17, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Oh, they're discrimination.  Very minor discrimination, I admit, but discrimination.
> 
> If you're singling out a group for special treatment, you're discriminating - for them if it is positive treatment, against them if it is negative treatment.
> 
> ...




I agree.

I reckon we stopped telling blonde jokes when we figured out they were really saying "Blonde women are dumb"

Since that's sexist and starts us down the road of "all women are dumb", it became a taboo joke to tell.

Gingerism might be a joke.  But some people might be meaning their ill-intent, or learning a bad mindset from it.

Dunno what to do about that.


----------



## trappedslider (Jan 17, 2014)

Raunalyn said:


> The "gingers have no soul" thing gained notoriety, I think, because of South Park (at least as far as I know). But yes, it's not meant to be serious.




This^

As a red head myself and growing up in a predominantly Hispanic elementary school after moving from Missouri during my childhood it was a bit of shock to say the least when I started getting called names and no at that time it wasn't done in a joking manner, it was done simply because I was different and kids are jerks lol. And being called those names hurt a lot and lead in part to be withdrawing into myself and becoming way less social than I used to be until the 7th grade.


----------



## Dungeoneer (Jan 17, 2014)

I think this is a peculiar form of discrimination that varies by region. I'm not a redhead, so maybe I just missed it, but I have never encountered any 'gingerism' in my region (Southeast US). But obviously it _does _happen, and it seems like it's a pretty serious thing in parts of the UK.

It seems silly but you have to remember, historical animosity and cultural stereotyping runs deep.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 17, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Oh, they're discrimination.  Very minor discrimination, I admit, but discrimination.
> 
> If you're singling out a group for special treatment, you're discriminating - for them if it is positive treatment, against them if it is negative treatment.
> 
> ...




Fair enough.  I'm obviously in the 'doesn't matter' camp and that's because I don't see any intended harm in the jokes.



Morrus said:


> It's a matter of degree. Calling someone a racial epithet and denying them a job are on the same scale - one's just much further along that scale. Violence is even further, of course. Jokes about hair colour are about as low down the scale as you can get, I agree.




Alrighty then, we seem to be on the same page.   'Discrimination', to me, has always carried a weight to it that isn't necessarily intended.  Basically the discrimination people talk about is the kind that matters so that's the way I tend to see the word.  

I dunno, when I think about blacks being discriminated against or women or whatever, well, I guess it sort of bothers me that saying gingers have no soul in a joking manner somehow gets called the same thing.  But that's a personal issue - the word itself makes no distinction in degree.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 17, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> I dunno, when I think about blacks being discriminated against or women or whatever, well, I guess it sort of bothers me that saying gingers have no soul in a joking manner somehow gets called the same thing.  But that's a personal issue - the word itself makes no distinction in degree.




To be fair, the ginger kids did get bullied and beat on in school. It was a bit worse than saying gingers have no soul in a joking manner.  My friend to this day insists his hair is "auburn".


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 17, 2014)

Janx said:


> I agree.
> 
> I reckon we stopped telling blonde jokes when we figured out they were really saying "Blonde women are dumb"
> 
> ...




I don't see it that way at all.  I mean, look at how ridiculous this premise is: Hair color indicates intelligence.  And it's not just that, the disparate levels of alleged intelligence are obvious_.  _It's not some small degree of difference, blondes are so dumb they think they can give birth to puppies or Polish people (my ethnicity) are so dumb that if you wave to a one armed Polish man who somehow climbed a tree, he'll wave back and fall down.  Seriously, who takes any of that seriously?  How could anyone make the jump from 'gingers have no soul' to 'gingers are well and truly terrible people'?  

My god, people.  If that actually happens we're bleepin' doomed and it ain't cuz of the jokes.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 17, 2014)

If I had to make a massive WAG as to the origin (and this is a total guess) - I'd say it was due to lots of Irish and Scottish folks moving to England in the 70s and the ensuing resentment.  Ginger colouring is common amongst them, and it had all the social (though not legal) connotations that immigration can have today, albeit on a lesser level.

When it crossed the pond, I don't know.  I guess that South Park episode was part of that.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 17, 2014)

Morrus said:


> To be fair, the ginger kids did get bullied and beat on in school. It was a bit worse than saying gingers have no soul in a joking manner.  My friend to this day insists his hair is "auburn".




Meh, everyone gets picked on.  I'm not a ginger and yet kids made fun of me.  An excuse is an excuse and that's all 'ginger' is.  It's not a reason in and of itself, it's the same thing as 'has glasses' or 'has braces' or 'is in the band' or whatever else was nerdy at your school at that time.  I really don't believe it's an indication of some sort of real world, global belief that gingers are ... whatever it is we supposedly think they are.  Soulless?  Yeah ... not buyin' it.

When I was in middle and high school _everyone _made fun of band kids.  I wasn't in the band myself so I enjoyed that cuz there were some people on the social ladder at a point that made them helpful to me.  My stepson wanted to join the band at his school.  This is like 20 some years later and only about as many miles.  I warned him what kids would call him (they were called 'band ****' in my school - the terms of service prohibit me from typing out that slur) but he was dead set on learning to play the saxophone.  Turns out, though, that in his school the band kids are the popular group - right beneath the jocks.  He's got all sorts of friends and has dated a couple of popular girls he met in band.  Hell, he's with a girl two years older than him right now.  That never would have happened when and where I went to school.  All I'm trying to say is that everyone has their own battle to fight - some better, some worse but most are, well, pretty damned trivial.


----------



## Bullgrit (Jan 17, 2014)

Dungeoneer said:
			
		

> I'm not a redhead, so maybe I just missed it, but I have never encountered any 'gingerism' in my region (Southeast US).



I also grew up (and still live) in the U.S. Southeast. My best friend in high school was a redhead. The girl I took to my senior prom was redhead. The first girl I dated when I moved to my college town was redhead. There were no cultural issues with red hair, and "ginger" was some spice or something. I never heard any negative comments about redheads until these last few years.

Bullgrit


----------



## billd91 (Jan 17, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> My god, people.  If that actually happens we're bleepin' doomed and it ain't cuz of the jokes.




On a certain level, those jokes may be innocuous. But they may also be revealing as well. Ethnic and other subgrouping jokes usually rest on some kind of stereotyping. It may be funny. It may be meant in just when someone asks "What's an Irish seven-course meal?" and answers "A potato and a six pack." But what prejudices and stereotypes does it rest on and, more importantly, transmit?

Check where these jokes tend to be or where they come from and other prejudices and animosities. There have been plenty of dumb Paddy jokes and ginger-bullying in the UK. Does it stem from or coincide with anti-Irish/anti-Celtic fringe prejudices? Probably. How about dumb Pollack jokes in German communities? Mexican/illegal immigrant jokes along the border states? Both probably come from the same sources as well. Does the source of JAP (Jewish American Princesses) jokes come from a well of anti-semitism? Maybe it does. Jokes about bad Asian drivers or Asian Fs on report cards (also known as a B+)? Do these stem from the insecurities of other competing communities in the multi-ethnic stew that is the United States? Maybe.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 17, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> Meh, everyone gets picked on.  I'm not a ginger and yet kids made fun of me.  An excuse is an excuse and that's all 'ginger' is.




That's all *any* discrimination is, at its core. People bullying other people for being different. It has its roots in racism - anti-Irish sentiment, and the like - thought it's largely lost that connotation these days. Some of it's more epidemic than other stuff, but like I said - it's all matters of degrees. We just happen to be talking about the really low end.



> Soulless?  Yeah ... not buyin' it.




Well that bit's just the South Park thing, isn't it?  I wasn't even aware of that aspect till this thread made me look it up.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 17, 2014)

billd91 said:


> On a certain level, those jokes may be innocuous. But they may also be revealing as well. Ethnic and other subgrouping jokes usually rest on some kind of stereotyping. It may be funny. It may be meant in just when someone asks "What's an Irish seven-course meal?" and answers "A potato and a six pack." But what prejudices and stereotypes does it rest on and, more importantly, transmit?
> 
> Check where these jokes tend to be or where they come from and other prejudices and animosities. There have been plenty of dumb Paddy jokes and ginger-bullying in the UK. Does it stem from or coincide with anti-Irish/anti-Celtic fringe prejudices? Probably. How about dumb Pollack jokes in German communities? Mexican/illegal immigrant jokes along the border states? Both probably come from the same sources as well. Does the source of JAP (Jewish American Princesses) jokes come from a well of anti-semitism? Maybe it does. Jokes about bad Asian drivers or Asian Fs on report cards (also known as a B+)? Do these stem from the insecurities of other competing communities in the multi-ethnic stew that is the United States? Maybe.




Where they come from and where they are are two different things.  Nobody gave a poo about gingers over here (US) - there was no reason - and yet we joke about them today.  

These type of jokes are ridiculous.  I'm absolutely positive that there are mental midgets out there that really do think all Irishmen are drunks and all Irish women are baby factories.  They're the vast minority, however.  Most people understand that a joke is a joke.

EDIT: A lot of these jokes are old as hell.  They come from a time long before real integration and stuff like the internet and air travel.  Basically, it's pretty easy today to tell that something's a joke and not a serious attack on an entire people cuz when someone tells a dumb Pollock joke we can look to our Polish friend and remember how smart he is.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 17, 2014)

Morrus said:


> That's all *any* discrimination is, at its core. People bullying other people for being different. It has its roots in racism - anti-Irish sentiment, and the like - thought it's largely lost that connotation these days. Some of it's more epidemic than other stuff, but like I said - it's all matters of degrees. We just happen to be talking about the really low end.




Like I said, it's a personal issue with the word itself.



> Well that bit's just the South Park thing, isn't it?  I wasn't even aware of that aspect till this thread made me look it up.




And that's the aspect I'm familiar with, too.  I honestly don't know any other gingerisms and I don't care.  That's kind of the point: It's all incredibly silly.


----------



## trappedslider (Jan 17, 2014)

French fry with ketchup on top, your mom bled when she gave birth to you and that's why your hair is red, carrot top and that's just the ones I remember getting tossed my way.


----------



## Bullgrit (Jan 17, 2014)

Can a joke turn into real discrimination?

What if after years of supposedly innocuous ginger jokes, a society in which redheads were not thought of as anything unusual (like my section of the U.S.), starts producing kids turning into adults who now belittle and discriminate against redheads all because they learned through their culture that there's something bad-different about "gingers"?

Isn't this the reverse of what we're trying to do with other -isms? Making it unacceptable to joke/belittle people based on race or sex, etc. so people stop discriminating? If we can stop an -ism by stopping the jokes, can a real -ism start by allowing the jokes?

I just did a search through Google: "are blondes discriminated against". Interesting results.

Bullgrit


----------



## Dungeoneer (Jan 17, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> I don't see it that way at all.  I mean, look at how ridiculous this premise is: Hair color indicates intelligence.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> My god, people.  If that actually happens we're bleepin' doomed and it ain't cuz of the jokes.



Well, one or two jokes are probably harmless, but if a redhead hears ginger jokes all the time, they are going to start to get annoyed by them, harmless or not. ALSO, while most of the people making the jokes will think that they are simply jokes, there will inevitably be one or two bigots who are serious and who will blow those jokes up into something far less innocent. 

As always, context is king. If I have a redheaded friend who I know well, and who hasn't been the victim of 'gingerism', I may tease them about being a ginger if our relationship supports that. And it could be completely harmless. But joking about random redheads whose backgrounds I don't know is probably a bad idea. They may have encountered actual discrimination in the past and I would never want to be part of that. And there always seems to be that one guy who acts like he's joking but really he's not...


----------



## Dungeoneer (Jan 17, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> I also grew up (and still live) in the U.S. Southeast. My best friend in high school was a redhead. The girl I took to my senior prom was redhead. The first girl I dated when I moved to my college town was redhead. There were no cultural issues with red hair, and "ginger" was some spice or something. I never heard any negative comments about redheads until these last few years.
> 
> Bullgrit



Oh cool, where are you from? I'm from Jacksonville, Florida. Born in Georgia.


----------



## Dungeoneer (Jan 17, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> Can a joke turn into real discrimination?
> 
> What if after years of supposedly innocuous ginger jokes, a society in which redheads were not thought of as anything unusual (like my section of the U.S.), starts producing kids turning into adults who now belittle and discriminate against redheads all because they learned through their culture that there's something bad-different about "gingers"?
> 
> ...




It's all moot since blondes and redheads are going extinct.


----------



## Desdichado (Jan 17, 2014)

Janx said:


> I reckon we stopped telling blonde jokes when we figured out they were really saying "Blonde women are dumb"
> 
> Since that's sexist and starts us down the road of "all women are dumb", it became a taboo joke to tell.



Who's we?  Blonde jokes are still pretty ubiquitous.

And no: blonde jokes say what they say.  There is no hidden meaning of sexism behind it.


----------



## Umbran (Jan 17, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> Can a joke turn into real discrimination?




In my personal experience, it has seemed more that jokes are instead a sign of direct or latent discrimination.  Your'e unlikely to poke fun of a group unless you've already figured out that group is "not us".

And, for the ginger thing - Morrus mentions a migration of Scots in the 1970s.  Not that I'm a scholar of British history, but the Irish are also known for their redheads, and the Irish Independence movement was pretty violent, and ran for decades.  Might no the anti-redhead thing be a vestige of that?


----------



## Janx (Jan 17, 2014)

Hobo said:


> Who's we?  Blonde jokes are still pretty ubiquitous.
> 
> And no: blonde jokes say what they say.  There is no hidden meaning of sexism behind it.




and there ya go.  If you and I work in the same company, and you think blonde jokes are just jokes and you keep telling them at work, you're looking at shortening your time in the Paycheck Contiuation Program.

Just as its annoying as ZB says that some issues get made up into big deals, failure to realize something has offensive meaning to other people is also bad.


----------



## Desdichado (Jan 17, 2014)

Janx said:


> and there ya go.  If you and I work in the same company, and you think blonde jokes are just jokes and you keep telling them at work, you're looking at shortening your time in the Paycheck Contiuation Program.



First off, I made no claim to what I think or do or what kind of jokes I tell. I said that in our society blonde jokes are still ubiquitous.  Let's not connect dots that I've been explicit to _not_ connect.


> Just as its annoying as ZB says that some issues get made up into big deals, failure to realize something has offensive meaning to other people is also bad.



Here I'll add my own opinion on something:  Sure, of course it's bad.  Then again, I have little patience for the modern grievance industry that looks for any excuse at all to claim that "hey, I'm a victim and I'm offended" and then launch on a crusade.  There's a happy medium between callous disregard for the feelings of others, and weaponized victimhood, and we have to be careful not to imply that it's a binary choice between the two, because clearly its not.  By the same token, one is not the "cure" for the other.


----------



## billd91 (Jan 17, 2014)

Umbran said:


> And, for the ginger thing - Morrus mentions a migration of Scots in the 1970s.  Not that I'm a scholar of British history, but the Irish are also known for their redheads, and the Irish Independence movement was pretty violent, and ran for decades.  Might no the anti-redhead thing be a vestige of that?




Possibly. But there are negative connotations of red hair dating back to the Middle Ages, so it's generally much older than Irish separatist violence as much as that might be a factor in the UK's incidence of gingerism.


----------



## Rabulias (Jan 18, 2014)

"Prejudice" by Tim Minchin is fitting here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw
(Fair warning: there are a couple Eric's-Grandma-unfriendly lyrics, but it's worth watching)


----------



## Morrus (Jan 18, 2014)

Hobo said:


> First off, I made no claim to what I think or do or what kind of jokes I tell. I said that in our society blonde jokes are still ubiquitous.  Let's not connect dots that I've been explicit to _not_ connect.
> 
> Here I'll add my own opinion on something:  Sure, of course it's bad.  Then again, I have little patience for the modern grievance industry that looks for any excuse at all to claim that "hey, I'm a victim and I'm offended" and then launch on a crusade.  There's a happy medium between callous disregard for the feelings of others, and weaponized victimhood, and we have to be careful not to imply that it's a binary choice between the two, because clearly its not.  By the same token, one is not the "cure" for the other.




I love the term "weaponized victimhood"! A perfect turn of phrase.


----------



## Scorpio616 (Jan 18, 2014)

Morrus said:


> If I had to make a massive WAG as to the origin (and this is a total guess) - I'd say it was due to lots of Irish and Scottish folks moving to England in the 70s and the ensuing resentment.  Ginger colouring is common amongst them, and it had all the social (though not legal) connotations that immigration can have today, albeit on a lesser level.



I'm thinking it goes back a bit further...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles


----------



## Dungeoneer (Jan 18, 2014)

Of course, not everyone is prejudiced _against_ redheads. I find redheads fairly attractive, personally. And Ferrari is Italian for redhead, so I think there may be some interest from Italy as well.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 18, 2014)

Dungeoneer said:


> Of course, not everyone is prejudiced _against_ redheads.




Well, obviously.  Is there such thing as a demographic group that_ everyone_ is prejudiced against?


----------



## tomBitonti (Jan 18, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Personally, I figure that making a regular thing out of saying uncomplimentary stuff about groups of people probably isn't a great idea.




Strongly agreed.  The usage seems to be a back door for a kind of unsavory sentiment.

To answer the initial question, I first heard the term on South Park.  The use was less offensive than it might have been because Cartright is _always_ offensive, but it was still an offensive use.  But, Southpark is Southpark; no surprises there, nor any offense to take.

Perhaps the UK usage is benign.  I suspect that here in the US the term is not being used as a synonym for "has red hair", but is meant as a deprecation.  The tone of the use fits a lot of other terms which are clearly offensive.

I guess, what is the point?  In any relationships, what does a persons hair color matter?  Unless you are talking about aspects of beauty, or need to describe someone to find them in a crowd, or are talking about finding a good makeup or clothing scheme for a person, the subject matter seems very unimportant.

Thx!

TomB


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 20, 2014)

Umbran said:


> In my personal experience, it has seemed more that jokes are instead a sign of direct or latent discrimination.  Your'e unlikely to poke fun of a group unless you've already figured out that group is "not us".




Yeah ... and what about when the jokes are in-group?  What about when they're self-deprecating?  Poking fun at someone, in many cases, is a sign of _acceptance_.


----------



## delericho (Jan 20, 2014)

What happened was that the really big prejudices became unacceptable, so people moved down the scale. Then those became unacceptable, so people moved down the scale. So now Ginger-ism is the 'acceptable' prejudice. In a few years, that will probably become unacceptable, so it will be Steve-ism, or something similarly stupid.

As for the 'jokes' being harmless, that's easy to say when you're not on the receiving end of them. But when you're the target, I daresay they're rather less funny. Actually, I don't need to say - several of my wife's friends are ginger, so I've seen first-hand how hurtful those 'jokes' can be.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 20, 2014)

Yeah, it's always easy to say jokes are harmless when you're the one making the jokes.  As a general principle, that usually holds true, and it's generally the rallying call of bullies.  And man, do I hate seeing people bullied.

But I don't think that's the point.  Sure, I can find a group of people to whom calling each other anything you can think of is fine.  The fact that such groups of people exist doesn't magically make the issue non-existent. And it's not always about how the target of the joke feels - sometimes the issue is that the joker feels that's a joke in a general sense.  He might not hate his friend, but it reveals he does have some kind of opinion about the characteristic being joked about, even if it's just that he thinks it's something to be joked about.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 20, 2014)

delericho said:


> What happened was that the really big prejudices became unacceptable, so people moved down the scale. Then those became unacceptable, so people moved down the scale. So now Ginger-ism is the 'acceptable' prejudice. In a few years, that will probably become unacceptable, so it will be Steve-ism, or something similarly stupid.
> 
> As for the 'jokes' being harmless, that's easy to say when you're not on the receiving end of them. But when you're the target, I daresay they're rather less funny. Actually, I don't need to say - several of my wife's friends are ginger, so I've seen first-hand how hurtful those 'jokes' can be.




Umm ... gingers aren't the only people that get joked about.  I dare say that _everyone_ does.  So yeah, I'm confident that I speak from experience.  Jokes don't hurt.  Cuz they're, you know, jokes.  

There's a distinction here that I see a lot of people miss.  Not exactly news but also no less frustrating.


----------



## delericho (Jan 20, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> Umm ... gingers aren't the only people that get joked about.  I dare say that _everyone_ does.




If I get joked about for being a geek, or being in a band, or even for being fat, that's something that is under my control. If I get joked about for being black, or female, or gay, or ginger (incidentally, I'm none of these things), then that's something that is not under my control. There's a difference there.



> Jokes don't hurt.




_Some_ jokes don't hurt. Some do. And some jokes hurt some people and don't hurt others.

Finally, while a person may well be able to shrug off _a_ joke, it's much harder to shrug it off when you've been getting hit with the same 'jokes', frequently, and for years.


----------



## Bagpuss (Jan 20, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Been that way since I was a child.  Ginger jokes, not blond/e. Pronounced with hard Gs. The word "redhead" isn't used over hear; you're a ginger.
> 
> So in answer to your question of "when" - 40 years ago at least. Probably before.




Yeah you can trace the phrase "beat them like a redhead-stepchild" to the 1840's or even earlier, and it generally linked to the dislike and distrust of Irish immigrants. But also their are references to Viking invasions of Britain that would leave redheaded stepchildren.

So yeah it goes back a long way it isn't something new.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 20, 2014)

delericho said:


> If I get joked about for being a geek, or being in a band, or even for being fat, that's something that is under my control. If I get joked about for being black, or female, or gay, or ginger (incidentally, I'm none of these things), then that's something that is not under my control. There's a difference there.




The only difference is in how you personally choose to see it.  I've been made fun of for things I cannot control and I don't really care.  Srsly.  

The other difference (erm, scratch that 'only', I guess) is in who it comes from and why.  If a friend makes a joke about, well, anything, I don't really care.  _Cuz it's a joke - I cannot stress this enough_.  Jokes are different from mean spirited attacks.  If I make a joke about someone's ethnicity and my friends laugh that could be just a joke or it could be a racist attack - depends upon who the target is.  If the target is a friend who's down with that stuff, it's a joke.  If the target is an audience that paid to see me perform (for the record, I'm not a comic or anything) then it's a joke.  There's cases where the target doesn't fall into these categories, though.  In those cases it's pretty obvious that the 'joke' isn't just a joke.

_



			Some
		
Click to expand...


_


> jokes don't hurt. Some do. And some jokes hurt some people and don't hurt others.




Yep.  Generally speaking here.  I obviously don't think no one is offended by ginger jokes.  What I'm saying is that in the vast majority of cases I don't think they have a reason to be.



> Finally, while a person may well be able to shrug off _a_ joke, it's much harder to shrug it off when you've been getting hit with the same 'jokes', frequently, and for years.




Or it's a lot easier.  Srsly, bro, if you hear it over and over again it becomes easy to tune out.  Er, for a lot of people anyway.


----------



## Umbran (Jan 20, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> What I'm saying is that in the vast majority of cases I don't think they have a reason to be.




That's fine.  You are free to have an opinion on the matter.  We have two opinions in conflict - yours and theirs.  Your opinion is not, on the face of it, any more valid than theirs.  In terms of judging whether they should feel offense, *your* opinions are probably pretty weak material, as they are based on different life experiences.

Simply put - if you're not the one who got beat up as a kid with red hair, you get limited say in whether ginger jokes are hurtful to those with red hair.


----------



## Tea He (Jan 20, 2014)

I agree with ZB.
Too many people go out of their way to be offended by something nowadays. People need to learn how to relax and stop finding offense because they want to.

Heh... my first wife and current wife are both redheads (yes, they are the devil), and two of my boys are red-heads (hard headed little bastards), and I make fun of them all the time!


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 20, 2014)

Umbran said:


> That's fine.  You are free to have an opinion on the matter.  We have two opinions in conflict - yours and theirs.  Your opinion is not, on the face of it, any more valid than theirs.  In terms of judging whether they should feel offense, *your* opinions are probably pretty weak material, as they are based on different life experiences.
> 
> Simply put - if you're not the one who got beat up as a kid with red hair, you get limited say in whether ginger jokes are hurtful to those with red hair.




Bro, I'm not telling anyone specific to shut up about ginger jokes or whatever, I'm trying to explain why my opinion is what it is.  

I also fail to see why I have to have been beaten up or made fun of specifically for having red hair to understand what it's like to be made fun of.  That's ... weak.  Part of my point is that I _have _been made fun of for things I cannot control and still have formed this opinion and that I am not alone in that.  

By the way, if I can't say ginger jokes aren't hurtful because I've never experienced them, _you _don't get to say they are unless you have.  That's how that line of thought works.     Er, if you are and have, well, nevermind that last bit.


----------



## Deset Gled (Jan 20, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> If a friend makes a joke about, well, anything, I don't really care.  _Cuz it's a joke - I cannot stress this enough_.  Jokes are different from mean spirited attacks.




Saying something is a "joke" is not an excuse.

"What do you call 1000 dead [insert racial slur of choice]?  A good start!" is a joke, but it's also offensive.

It's possible for the underlying context to change the meaning meaning of something; a racial slur can convey different meanings if it is used to intentionally portray a character as a villian, or if it is use to display a juxtaposition of different positions, or if it is used as a refuge in audacity.  In the case you give, the performer and audience (you and your friends) is the context that makes a ginger joke acceptable within that group.  But saying something is a "joke" is not sufficient context to make a blanket statement about how offensive it is.


----------



## Tea He (Jan 20, 2014)

Why is everybody crying over ginger jokes?
What about blonde jokes!?
Lets give them a chance to be butt hurt as well...


----------



## Kramodlog (Jan 20, 2014)

Butt hurt blonde!? Kinky.


----------



## Tea He (Jan 20, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Butt hurt blonde!? Kinky.




There's a joke there... somewhere...


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 20, 2014)

Deset Gled said:


> Saying something is a "joke" is not an excuse.
> 
> "What do you call 1000 dead [insert racial slur of choice]?  A good start!" is a joke, but it's also offensive.
> 
> It's possible for the underlying context to change the meaning meaning of something; a racial slur can convey different meanings if it is used to intentionally portray a character as a villian, or if it is use to display a juxtaposition of different positions, or if it is used as a refuge in audacity.  In the case you give, the performer and audience (you and your friends) is the context that makes a ginger joke acceptable within that group.  But saying something is a "joke" is not sufficient context to make a blanket statement about how offensive it is.




Yeah ... I'm pretty sure I said pretty much the same thing - possibly even in the quote you chose to chop up.  If you can't be bothered to read it, though, I can't be bothered to go back and find it.  Movin' on ...


----------



## trappedslider (Jan 20, 2014)

as an actual ginger and receiver of the so called "jokes" I can tell you that they do hurt from the annoying "I've heard it a million times get a new one" to  the point of it being done to be a jerk. The doing it to be a jerk honestly had a hand in causing me to withdraw into myself during the 4th grade.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 20, 2014)

Tea He said:


> Why is everybody crying over ginger jokes?
> What about blonde jokes!?
> Lets give them a chance to be butt hurt as well...




Please ignore this post, folks. It's from a permabanned member trolling us with an alt account.


----------



## tomBitonti (Jan 20, 2014)

*Context and audience matters*

Just wanted to say, that context and audience matter.

What can be said to close friends or associates in a private setting is different from what can be said in public, and different from what can be said in a semi-public controlled environment (like a workplace).  (This site is a semi-public controlled environment: It has public access, but is privately owned and operated, and folks posting are required to keep to the rules.)

Where (geographically) a comment is made matters, too.  Having traveled, not a lot, but quite far, there are conversations I would distinctly not have in certain locales.  I suspect that "Ginger" as a term has a different enough meaning in different locales that no single rule applies.

In my experience, lots of folks will overlook unfriendly speech in a public place -- to a point.  After which, they will move elsewhere, or ask you to take your conversation elsewhere, or invoke an authority.

A work environment is entirely another matter.  I can't speak to a lot of work environments, but where I work I almost never hear "unfriendly talk" (which very clearly disallowed).  Here "unfriendly talk" means anything disruptive to the work environment, and usually includes politics or social issues, and always covers anything rude, demeaning, or hateful.  That's unfortunately vague, but the entire guidelines would not fit into this note.  I understand that to be more-or-less the rule for most work places, but, I also suspect that a lot of environments stray from the rule.

What all that says is that, at least for the current topic, generalization is rather less than useful.

Thx!

TomB


----------



## delericho (Jan 21, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> The only difference is in how you personally choose to see it.




It's really not. If I'm truly bothered by jokes about being a geek, I could stop being a geek easily enough. If a person were truly bothered about jokes about being ginger, they can't stop being ginger - it's a matter of genetics, and part of who they are. The best they could do is _hide_ it, and that's hardly a good solution.



> I obviously don't think no one is offended by ginger jokes.  What I'm saying is that in the vast majority of cases I don't think they have a reason to be.




Whether you or I think they have a reason to be bothered by the 'jokes' is largely irrelevant. They _are_ bothered by them.

I'm also afraid that any claim it is "just a joke" is simply mistaken. I suggest reading here on the topic, and especially this bit about modern discrimination. The cases of violence it describes are thankfully rare, but that doesn't make them any less wrong.


----------



## Bullgrit (Jan 21, 2014)

When one tells a joke that someone else finds offensive / is hurt by, it was a simple mistake. "I only meant it as a joke. Sorry." But if one continues to tell similar jokes in spite of knowing someone is offended/hurt, that joke-teller is a jerk. "It's only a joke, dude. Lighten up." There is no need to tell jokes, so stopping doesn't hurt you in any way. 

Bullgrit


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 21, 2014)

delericho said:


> It's really not. If I'm truly bothered by jokes about being a geek, I could stop being a geek easily enough. If a person were truly bothered about jokes about being ginger, they can't stop being ginger - it's a matter of genetics, and part of who they are. The best they could do is _hide_ it, and that's hardly a good solution.




No, it really is.  You completely missed my point.  Of course someone couldn't stop being a ginger - that's impossible.  The obviousness of that should have been a clue that you were on the wrong trail - at least one would think.  Since you missed it, I'll try to explain:

By 'personally choose to see it' I meant how the offended party in question chooses to see the joke.  What people don't understand is that they _choose _to be offended.  I learned a long time ago that my happiness in life was predicated solely upon my own perception of the events that occurred in it.  If someone made fun of me, I could take that as an attack and be angry or saddened by it ... or I could brush it off.  In the case of what we're mostly talking about here, if I say gingers have no soul (remember, I've explained this several times, that I think that statement is ludicrous and therefore obviously not ever said as fact) a ginger could decide to be offended or see it as the joke it is.  Really, we have a lot more power than we give ourselves credit for.

So yeah, you're right: A ginger can't take take off their skin or dye their hair ... wait ... umm ... anyhoo, that skin thing still works ... maybe ... uhh ... where was I?  Oh yeah, a ginger can't stop being a ginger, no, but they _can _decide what bothers them and what doesn't and they _can _decide to see a joke as a joke.  Really, is it _that _hard to tell the difference between someone poking fun and someone taking a shot?  Really?



> Whether you or I think they have a reason to be bothered by the 'jokes' is largely irrelevant. They _are_ bothered by them.




Yup, I get that.  See above.



> I'm also afraid that any claim it is "just a joke" is simply mistaken. I suggest reading here on the topic, and especially this bit about modern discrimination. The cases of violence it describes are thankfully rare, but that doesn't make them any less wrong.




Wrong.  If I make a joke and I say it's just a joke, guess what, it's just a joke!  Who knows better in that case, me or you?  

For the record, I never said any violence was ok.  I also never said any sort of violence was a joke.  I want to thank you for illustrating how easy it is for some people to mix the two up for whatever reason.  That's really the issue here: Some people can't tell the difference between a joke and a knuckle sandwich.

[sblock=The differenceI put mayo on my knuckle sandwiches.[/sblock]


----------



## delericho (Jan 21, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> No, it really is.  You completely missed my point.  Of course someone couldn't stop being a ginger - that's impossible.  The obviousness of that should have been a clue that you were on the wrong trail - at least one would think.  Since you missed it, I'll try to explain:
> 
> By 'personally choose to see it' I meant how the offended party in question chooses to see the joke.  What people don't understand is that they _choose _to be offended.




I see. So racist, sexist, and homophobic 'jokes', of the order given by the OP are okay, then? I think you'll find very few people who agree with you these days.



> For the record, I never said any violence was ok.




No, but you did say:



Zombie_Babies said:


> Umm ... it's really simple.  The ginger 'hate' isn't real hate at all.  It's all 100% just a joke.




about which you are quite simply wrong.


----------



## Kramodlog (Jan 21, 2014)

Or you know, are people are just offended by just about anything or pretend they are. They are jerks, hypocrites, people who just want control over others. I feel not pitty for such people and do not indulge them.


----------



## delericho (Jan 21, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Or you know, are people are just offended by just about anything or pretend they are.




I daresay some people do. Others are genuinely hurt at the 'jokes', the bullying, and all the other crap that they receive purely based on the colour of their hair.



> They are jerks, hypocrites, people who just want control over others. I feel not pitty for such people and do not indulge them.




If you tell a joke knowing it's going to hurt someone else, you're the jerk. If you tell the joke not realising the harm, then fair enough... but once the harm has been explained to you if you persist in telling such jokes (indeed, if you fail to apologise) then, once again, you're the jerk.


----------



## Dungeoneer (Jan 21, 2014)

It's very easy to say "just laugh it off" when the joke isn't about you personally.


----------



## Zombie_Babies (Jan 21, 2014)

delericho said:


> I see. So racist, sexist, and homophobic 'jokes', of the order given by the OP are okay, then? I think you'll find very few people who agree with you these days.




So you still don't get it.  Ok.  By the way, quite a few people actually _do _agree with me.  When a joke is told as a joke there's nothing wrong with it.  Srsly, you watch any stand up comedy?  I don't mean something like Jeff Dunham, either, I mean real stand up.  Try it sometime.



> No, but you did say:
> 
> 
> 
> about which you are quite simply wrong.




So maybe I should have qualified it with a different percentage, then.  I'll give you that.  How about 95% just a joke?  Does that make you more comfortable?



Dungeoneer said:


> It's very easy to say "just laugh it off" when the joke isn't about you personally.




How many bleepin' times do I have to say this?  I _am _someone who had jokes told about their ethnicity, appearance, whatever.  I don't care.  Not a whit.  _Cuz they're jokes!!_  This argument is one of the most ridiculous I've ever seen.  Srsly, you're telling me I can't say laugh it off because I haven't?  How could you possibly know that?  Everyone has been made fun of at some point during their life and many of them laughed it off.  So unless you're telling me I can't tell a ginger that 'you have no soul' is a joke because I'm not a ginger I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.  Cuz it doesn't mean anything.


----------



## Deset Gled (Jan 21, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> So you still don't get it.  Ok.  By the way, quite a few people actually _do _agree with me.  When a joke is told as a joke there's nothing wrong with it.  Srsly, you watch any stand up comedy?  I don't mean something like Jeff Dunham, either, I mean real stand up.  Try it sometime.




Have you ever considered the possibility that you may be the one not getting it?  People here, and large numbers of people in the world at large, simply do not consider "it's a joke" to be a valid excuse.  It doesn't matter if you personally don't care.  Other people do, and you don't have any authority to tell them they're not allowed to.

If you don't believe the world at large thinks this way, I encourage you to discuss the topic with Michael Richards, Sergio Garcia, David Chalian, or Justine Sacco.


----------



## Kramodlog (Jan 21, 2014)

delericho said:


> If you tell a joke knowing it's going to hurt someone else, you're the jerk.



Not necessarely. It could be someone who are offended or pretend to be by anything. Those bullies are the jerks, champ.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 21, 2014)

I'm perceiving plenty of incoming jerkism here. Closing the thread.


----------

