# Dex Bonus to Damage?



## Kayman42 (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm thinking a Feint Master kind of build for my next character.  I know I'll be getting weapon finesse for the class, and I was wondering if there was a feat around that would allow me to apply my dex bonus to my damage roll instead of my str.  I've talked to people who say they've seen a feat like that, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.  Any suggestions?


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## Sabathius42 (Aug 7, 2007)

Just to save other time typing....the general consensus on this is that it's never going to be fair to add DEX to damage because it makes DEX too useful and would make STR almost useless.

I don't think there is an official (WoTC sourced) feat or power that does this.

DS


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## Felnar (Aug 7, 2007)

in the Bo9S , feat Shadow Blade
even allows adding both Str and Dex to damage

also a elf PrC from RotW, i believe


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## Arkhandus (Aug 7, 2007)

There is.  Shadow Blade, from the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords.

You have to take a level in Swordsage or a couple of copies of the Martial Stance or Martial Study feats to qualify, since you need to have some Shadow Hand maneuvers or stances to meet the prerequisites (I forget the specific requirements).

Also, IIRC it only works when you're wielding one of the weapons favored by the Shadow Hand discipline/style.  I forget what weapons that includes, off the top of my head.


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## comrade raoul (Aug 7, 2007)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Also, IIRC it only works when you're wielding one of the weapons favored by the Shadow Hand discipline/style.  I forget what weapons that includes, off the top of my head.



It does include the shortsword and spiked chain, as I recall, which is pretty solid.

That ominous shuffling noise you hear is the power creeping.


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## the_mighty_agrippa (Aug 7, 2007)

Felnar said:
			
		

> also a elf PrC from RotW, i believe




Champion of Corellon.  It does provide a Dex bonus to damage.


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## Arkhandus (Aug 7, 2007)

comrade raoul said:
			
		

> That ominous shuffling noise you hear is the power creeping.




Hm?  Oh, that?  That's been around since the 3.0 DMG came out a few months or whatever after the Player's Handbook.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2007)

Crossbow sniper from PH2 lets you add 1/2 Dex to crossbow damage plus lets you skirmish or sneak attack up to 60 ft away.  Might need to get that for a rogue I have!


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## Vorput (Aug 7, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> Just to save other time typing....the general consensus on this is that it's never going to be fair to add DEX to damage because it makes DEX too useful and would make STR almost useless.
> 
> I don't think there is an official (WoTC sourced) feat or power that does this.
> 
> DS




I still don't cease to be surprised at what Bo9S allows to be gotten away with...


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## Legildur (Aug 7, 2007)

the_mighty_agrippa said:
			
		

> Champion of Corellon.  It does provide a Dex bonus to damage.



Yes. But only for specific weapons in which you have Weapon Focus (but including longsword and rapier, I believe), and only against targets vulnerable to critical hits. And you need to be an elf....


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## Arkhandus (Aug 7, 2007)

Heaven forbid a swashbuckler should be able to do more than just tickle people with his fencing blade. -_- :\


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## AnonymousOne (Aug 7, 2007)

Crossbow Sniper - 

Prereq - Weapon Focus (Any crossbow)
Provided you are using the Crossbow for which you have Weapon Focus
You can sneak attack or skirmish out to 60'
add 1/2 Dex Mod (rounded down) to Damage


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## Phlebas (Aug 7, 2007)

Improved critical seems to be quite effective at getting the best damage out of finesse weapons, especially if wielded 2-handed by a rogue with flanking......

OK its not a replacement for STR damage bonus, but its a pretty effective use of a Feat to increase damage


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## comrade raoul (Aug 7, 2007)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Heaven forbid a swashbuckler should be able to do more than just tickle people with his fencing blade. -_- :\



 That's what the actual swashbuckler's Int bonus to damage is for.

It's true that the swashbuckler is underpowered, but a couple of multiclass feats in Complete Scoundrel fix that. (One basically gives fighters swashbuckler AC--encouraging the swashbuckler to mostly take levels in the fighter class--the other basically gives swashbucklers rogue-grade sneak attack, making them offensive powerhouses.)


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## comrade raoul (Aug 7, 2007)

Vorput said:
			
		

> I still don't cease to be surprised at what Bo9S allows to be gotten away with...



_I_ still don't cease to be surprised that there are people who would actually allow it in their campaigns.


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## Mort (Aug 7, 2007)

comrade raoul said:
			
		

> _I_ still don't cease to be surprised that there are people who would actually allow it in their campaigns.




Yes, it's just a horrible idea to have fun effective warriors that can actualy *gasp* have a chance at keeping up with the spellcasters at high levels. 

More on topic, unless you take a level in swordsage, the investment required for shadow blade (I don't have the book in front of me, but you need the feat, another feat for a shadowhand stance, I think you need some shadow hand manuevers as well more feats, but I could be incorrect here) is quite prohibitive.


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## Nifft (Aug 7, 2007)

Mort said:
			
		

> Yes, it's just a horrible idea to have fun effective warriors that can actualy *gasp* have a chance at keeping up with the spellcasters at high levels.



 Hush! You know fighters can't have nice things. 



			
				Mort said:
			
		

> More on topic, unless you take a level in swordsage, the investment required for shadow blade (I don't have the book in front of me, but you need the feat, another feat for a shadowhand stance, I think you need some shadow hand manuevers as well more feats, but I could be incorrect here) is quite prohibitive.



 Three feats for Shadow Blade:

6th level: Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
Then: Martial Stance (Island of Blades)
Finally: Shadow Blade

You could start 3rd level, but the maneuver choices are inferior.

2nd or 3rd level: Martial Study (Shadow Blade Technique)
Then: Martial Stance (Island of Blades)
Finally: Shadow Blade

Cheers, -- N


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## Aleolus (Aug 7, 2007)

Guys, he's looking for a feat to add dex, I believe.  And I have one.

Superior Finesse
Prerequresites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse (any)
Effect: Pick one weapon for which you have the Weapon Finesse feat.  You may add your Dex bonus to damage instead of your Str.


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## comrade raoul (Aug 7, 2007)

Okay, I know this is a bit of a hijacking, but I can't resist a response.







			
				Mort said:
			
		

> Yes, it's just a horrible idea to have fun effective warriors that can actualy *gasp* have a chance at keeping up with the spellcasters at high levels.



I know this is the refrain that Tome of Battle partisans like to give, but often the examples they give of abusive spellcasters rely heavily on lots of material from supplements, or rely on highly specific combinations of spells. In those cases, the problem seems to be with the supplemental material or the individual spells, not the spellcasters--and it seems like a simpler solution is just to prohibit the supplements or nerf the offending spells. Why design a whole new set of classes stronger than anything in the SRD, even the cleric? I've asked this a bunch of times, but I've never really seen an answer.


			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> Hush! You know fighters can't have nice things.



You know, I'm pretty sure that's actually the *biggest* problem with the Tome of Battle material. I actually agree with people who say the fighter is too weak--but I think the _wrong_ solution is designing classes that make the fighter irrelevant. Fighters (and barbarians, and paladins) are iconic enough that they should be generally playable, and giving players a choice between a fighter and a fighter++ just punishes people with less experienced or those who for whatever reason don't want the added complication of a lot of maneuvers. That is, the *fighter* should have nice things--not the "warblade."

I should note that, on the whole, I really like the Tome of Battle--I just think the warblade, the crusader, most of the feats and lots of maneuvers (mainly Devoted Spirit and White Raven ones) are over the top. These are enough to make accepting the book _whole hog_ disastrous, but with some pruning, I think it's a fantastic resource. (IMC I've basically replaced the monk with a slightly modified swordsage, for example, and given fighters and rangers a limited number of maneuvers as they progress. It works great.)


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## Mort (Aug 7, 2007)

So as not to completely derail and hijack this thread, I started a new thread on Bo9S and vs. other classes here. Lets keep this thread on topic for the poor OP.


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## Phlebas (Aug 7, 2007)

Aleolus said:
			
		

> Guys, he's looking for a feat to add dex, I believe.  And I have one.
> 
> Superior Finesse
> Prerequresites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse (any)
> Effect: Pick one weapon for which you have the Weapon Finesse feat.  You may add your Dex bonus to damage instead of your Str.




What book is that from?


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## Arkhandus (Aug 7, 2007)

Comrade: Just to remind you, but the ToB is a supplement itself.  If the group is using it, chances are slim to none that they _aren't_ also using other supplements, most of which have new nice things for spellcasters (Spell Compendium is the most obvious of the likely supplements sitting at the same game table as the Tome of Battle).  So the party's likely already gotten some extra power and flexibility for the spellcasters.  Bo9S does not exist in a void with the Core Rules.  That's all.


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## Arkhandus (Aug 7, 2007)

Phlebas said:
			
		

> What book is that from?




I'm guessing it's a custom feat of his, not from any book.


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## comrade raoul (Aug 7, 2007)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Comrade: Just to remind you, but the ToB is a supplement itself. If the group is using it, chances are slim to none that they _aren't_ also using other supplements, most of which have new nice things for spellcasters (Spell Compendium is the most obvious of the likely supplements sitting at the same game table as the Tome of Battle). So the party's likely already gotten some extra power and flexibility for the spellcasters. Bo9S does not exist in a void with the Core Rules. That's all.



Fair enough--that's a really good point. I generally assess material against the core rules--I'm acceptable with new material only if it's balanced against the core rules (or if it strengthens elements of the core rules--like fighters or maybe bards--that I'd previously thought were on the weak side), not the core rules plus lots of supplements that aren't similarly balanced. A lot of _Spell Compendium_ spells--like those darn orb spells--are things I'd ban for similar reasons. This means that I'm probably more conservative about both balance and supplementary material than lots of other people--and that might not come through.

In games with abjurant champions or initiates of the seven veils who pile the metamagic feats on the _orb of fire_ they picked Arcane Thesis with, I bet a lot more Tome of Battle stuff is balanced than I'd have otherwise thought.


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## Nifft (Aug 8, 2007)

Aleolus said:
			
		

> Guys, he's looking for a feat to add dex, I believe.  And I have one.
> 
> Superior Finesse
> Prerequresites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse (any)
> Effect: Pick one weapon for which you have the Weapon Finesse feat.  You may add your Dex bonus to damage instead of your Str.



 That feat smells like 3.0e -- what was your source?

Cheers, -- N


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## Aleolus (Aug 9, 2007)

_Feats_.  It's an AEG book, OGL.  But, because it's OGL, it's completely compatible with D&D.


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## werk (Aug 9, 2007)

Aleolus said:
			
		

> _Feats_.  It's an AEG book, OGL.  But, because it's OGL, it's completely compatible with D&D.




Well, that remains to be seen.  I do see that it is using 3.0 mechanics for finesse, so that is a flag for me right there.


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## Aleolus (Aug 9, 2007)

...How is that using 3.0 mechanics?  It's exactly the same thing Weapon Finesse does, except for damage instead of attacking.


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## Nifft (Aug 9, 2007)

Aleolus said:
			
		

> ...How is that using 3.0 mechanics?





> Weapon Finesse (any)
> Effect: Pick one weapon for which you have the Weapon Finesse feat.




How does Weapon Finesse work in 3.5e?

Cheers, -- N


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## Aleolus (Aug 9, 2007)

OK, then, modify it slightly to fit the rules for 3.5.

Superior Finesse
Prerequresites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
Effect: Pick one weapon for which the Weapon Finesse feat applies. You may add your Dex bonus to damage instead of your Str when using this weapon.

Or...

Superior Finesse
Prerequresites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
Effect: When using a weapon for which the Weapon Finesse feat would apply, you may choose to use your dexterity modifier for damage rolls instead of your strength modifier.


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## Nifft (Aug 9, 2007)

Aleolus said:
			
		

> OK, then, modify it slightly to fit the rules for 3.5.



 We're not rejecting the feat because it isn't written exactly the way a 3.5e feat would be written.

We're questioning it because it's from an old book, written back when balance was a lot more hit and miss.

*Shadow Blade* is already questionably strong, with its pre-requisites and opportunity cost and limitations.

Cheers, -- N


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## dagger (Aug 9, 2007)

CLASSES
Champion of C.L. 2     Races o' Wild p113 3.5     Damage

Corsair 9              Dragon #321 p86 3.5        Damage (replaces Strength)

Fighter Variant        Dragon #310                Ranged Damage (replaces Strength)

FEATS
Shadow Blade           Tome of Battle p32          Damage with Shadow Hand weapons


 EQUIPMENT
Fierce enchantment     Arms/Equip guide p96 3.0    Damage, Removes AC bonus

Sword of Graceful Strikes Arms/Equip guide p120 3.0   Damage


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## werk (Aug 9, 2007)

> OK, then, modify it slightly to fit the rules for 3.5.




So you are arguing that the best solution for what many consider an overpowered request, is to use OGL materials from a previous (overpowered) version, and then modify them out of your butt?


Please allow me to expound upon that...

Do you think changing finesse from one weapon to all light weapons, plus a few others, increased the power level of the feat from 3.0 to 3.5?

In light of that, do you think the supreme finesse feat then exponentially increases in power in relation to that change?

Say, for example, you have a rapier and shortsword dual weilder, didn't he just get twice the benefit from your 'slight modification'?


It may not make a difference, it may make a big difference, but the key is, you don't know.


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## Banshee16 (Aug 9, 2007)

werk said:
			
		

> So you are arguing that the best solution for what many consider an overpowered request, is to use OGL materials from a previous (overpowered) version, and then modify them out of your butt?
> 
> 
> Please allow me to expound upon that...
> ...




It's probably a little more powerful now, given that Weapon Finesse is taken once, and applies to all finessable weapons.  I still use the 3.0 rule, where you have to take the feat for each weapon you want to finesse.  That limits the power of supreme finesse.

The feat is sourced from the OGL Feats book by Alderac, I believe, and originally came from Swashbuckling Adventures.  Frankly, I don't see it as much of an issue.  You've burned two feats to be able to have DEX replace your STR score for a specific weapon.  That's how it was originally written. 

If you're determined to use the 3.5 version of finesse, then I'd say that you could simply limit extra finesse by requiring a character to take it in each weapon they want to use it with....thus if you want it with rapier and main gauche, you have to take it twice.

Banshee


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## Tumbler (Aug 9, 2007)

Champion of Corellon makes for an interesting choice, but isn't really swashbucklery.  It requires mounted combat, and focuses on wearing heavy armor (or at least medium armor).  There are so many easier ways to add to damage with a finesse fighter, it's not necessary to use Dex bonus.

Additionally, I played a 3.0 fighter/rogue/duelist who had the superior finesse, and it was stupid broken once I got his Dex past 20.


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## Thurbane (Aug 10, 2007)

Aleolus said:
			
		

> OK, then, modify it slightly to fit the rules for 3.5.
> 
> Superior Finesse
> Prerequresites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
> ...



Maybe swap out Combat Expertise for Weapon Focus, and only allow it to apply to one particular weapon?


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## Sabathius42 (Aug 10, 2007)

If I were a fighter/barbarian I would gladly let the GM houserule adding a feat that adds DEX bonus to damage....then I would ask for this feat...



Rock Hard Abs [General, Fighter]

Your amazing physique is so stoutly crafted that it can ward off blows that would hurt a normal character of your race.

Prerequisite: STR 13

Benefit: You gain a beefcake bonus to your natural armor equal to your STR modifier.

I think thats a fair tradeoff!

DS


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## Wolfspider (Aug 10, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> If I were a fighter/barbarian I would gladly let the GM houserule adding a feat that adds DEX bonus to damage....then I would ask for this feat...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Been watching _300_ recently, have you?


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## Sabathius42 (Aug 10, 2007)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> Been watching _300_ recently, have you?




The Movie Universe Spartan prestige class most certainly has Rock Hard Abs as a prerequisite.

DS


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## Sound of Azure (Aug 10, 2007)

Thurbane said:
			
		

> Maybe swap out Combat Expertise for Weapon Focus, and only allow it to apply to one particular weapon?




Heck, I'd just _add_ Weapon Focus to the requirements.


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## Aleolus (Aug 10, 2007)

Sound of Azure said:
			
		

> Heck, I'd just _add_ Weapon Focus to the requirements.




Well, then, how about this?

Superior Finesse
Prerequresites: Dex 13+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (any applicable for Weapon Finesse)
Effect: Pick one weapon for which you posses the Weapon Focus feat and for which the Weapon Finesse feat applies. You may add your Dex bonus to damage instead of your Str when using this weapon.


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## geosapient (Aug 10, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> If I were a fighter/barbarian I would gladly let the GM houserule adding a feat that adds DEX bonus to damage....then I would ask for this feat...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The OP wanted something that allowed dex bonus to damage in lieu of strength to damage not in addition to. If you wanted to drop the bonus to AC that you get from dex so that you could add the strength bonus instead I'd have no problem with it (although strength is more important an attribute to begin with).


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## kayn99 (Aug 10, 2007)

I was just reading the Champion of C.L. 2 Races o' Wild, and I notice that they get strength and Dexterity to damage; it is not just Dex.  Although this is against opponents that can only be critical damage too, but that is very powerful.  Is there any other classes that allow two stats to adjust on bonus?

Kayn


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 10, 2007)

kayn99 said:
			
		

> I was just reading the Champion of C.L. 2 Races o' Wild, and I notice that they get strength and Dexterity to damage; it is not just Dex.  Although this is against opponents that can only be critical damage too, but that is very powerful.  Is there any other classes that allow two stats to adjust on bonus?




It's powerful, yes.  But it doesn't add an excessive amount of damage, and it's a pain in the butt to get to, so it's probably balanced.  None of my group's ever been tempted to take it, not even the super-powergamer/DM.

Note that Swashbuckler adds Int to damage, as well as Str.

We did notice that one could, theoretically, make a Swashbuckler/Champion of Corellon, but in practice it didn't work out very well, between the large number of feats required and the enormous MAD requirement.  Especially now that PHB 2's out, you could get as much damage out of a fighter without the effort.

Brad


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## Sabathius42 (Aug 10, 2007)

geosapient said:
			
		

> The OP wanted something that allowed dex bonus to damage in lieu of strength to damage not in addition to. If you wanted to drop the bonus to AC that you get from dex so that you could add the strength bonus instead I'd have no problem with it (although strength is more important an attribute to begin with).




If that ever became an option....it would be taken more often than power attack and DEX would become a dump-stat for melee fighter-types.

DS


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