# ENWorld Liberation Movement - The Elitism must end



## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

The people have spoken, and the people love ENWorld. 

Many people, like myself, were already community supporters before the fund raiser, but still donated, because it was (and is) a worthy cause. People that love ENWorld will continue to support the site when needed for the same reasons. Future fundraisers will keep ENWorld going as necessary.

The old paradigm of exclusively supporting ENWorld by selling individual CS accounts has failed. 

The time has come for eliminating the class structure here as well. This has truly become everyones site, not just for those with a custom tagline under their name, which loudly proclaims, "I donated - You didn't". The means are there, and a future server upgrade could provide the necessary "oomph" to allow every member the ability to search these forums, and thus fully utilize this wonderful resource. 

If ENWorld is to grow, and avoid a stagnation dominated by veteran posters, this place needs to be as user friendly as possible. 

Let's not just stand on the convention of "this is how it has always been" - Let's galvanize ourselves for the new, elitism free ENWorld of the future.   

Your partner in solidarity,

BFG

from dictionary.com:

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism    
n. 

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or *financial* resources. 

The sense of *entitlement* enjoyed by such a group or class. 
Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 11, 2003)

Please tell me you're joking.


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## Crothian (Dec 11, 2003)

Who is getting favored treatement?  Does anyone truely think that search and a tagline is really that a big a deal?  Sigs and avatars seem much more important and everyone can have them.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Please tell me you're joking.




This is not a joke.

Nor is this a recrimination. 

This is a plea for equitible changes in the upcoming iterations and future of the ENWorld messageboards.

This site was operated by certain guidelines in the past, and they may have been appropriate for the time they were implemented, but those times are in  past. 

ENWorld now has the means to provide the means for anyone to use the search
function in future iterations of the boards.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 11, 2003)

While I understand and feel you are right I just want to say that a few people here are gods and I feel honored to walk in their shadow.


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 11, 2003)

I dunno, I like the setup the way it is now.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Who is getting favored treatement?




Anyone that donated money to ENWorld or has otherwise purchased a CS account.




			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> Does anyone truely think that search and a tagline is really that a big a deal?  Sigs and avatars seem much more important and everyone can have them.




New users like this guy certainly do:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=71496

ENWorld can be very overwhelming for a new user with its thousands upon thousands of threads, and years of history. 

In order for ENWorld to prosper in the long term, new users must join the fold and utilize the resources here. Otherwise they just won't stick around. For every lurker who has posted regarding the search function, I bet there have been many more who just left in frustration. 

What use is a shiny avatar, when all you want to do is quickly get some DM tips or rules based help? Avatars and signatures are only important to the most frequent messageboard posters. Infrequent users don't care about these much. They ceratinly don't want to hear a "sales pitch" on their first attempt to locate something in the archives. After bookmarking ENWorld, they will come back if they found the site useful. 

And then they will become an addict like us! 

And possibly give any money they might be able to afford for a CS account or in a future fund raiser. 

Many people made sacrifices in order to donate during the drive. I respect many of the people here who wanted to give $, but just could not make that happen. They are just as much a part of our community as those who did. This place would not be as great without them and their posts. They should also be able to fully utilize the resources here.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> I dunno, I like the setup the way it is now.




Why?


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 11, 2003)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> Why?



 It's Quid Pro Quo.

We paid out to help support the site, ergo, we get to use schnazziness.  Not saying other people are jerks for not, but it's an incentive; if you want custom titles, PMs, and Search functions, then donate to help keep the site running.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 11, 2003)

I think I liked it better when I was an untitled bum. Now I have responsibilities and street cred, which creates a lot of pressure to live up to the expectations.


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## Femerus the Gnecro (Dec 11, 2003)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> New users like this guy certainly do




I think you may have misread Talwyn's post, or maybe you didn't read the entire thread?



			
				Talwyn said:
			
		

> Well I most surely believe that you have good reason for making people pay for the search feature.




That statement, to me, seems as though Talwyn believes that paying for extra features is justified.  I have to say, I agree.  

The idea that community supporters are given extra perks may seem 'elitist' to you, but has there really been any kind of backlash against the people who *haven't* donated to the site?  Honestly, I don't see what's prompted this post.  The idea of 'elitism' has a very negative connotation, and I think it's a little insulting to imply that everyone with a custom title is an 'elitist.'

'Control, rule and domination' indeed.

-F


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## Piratecat (Dec 11, 2003)

Darrin, you could change your title to "Untitled Bum." That would confuse people.

Please note that a Community Suporter account gives access to certain features, not to special treatment. When two people have different cars, that isn't elitism; then the police give a ticket to the person with the worse car, then it is.  We're modelling the former example, not the latter.


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## barsoomcore (Dec 11, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> I think I liked it better when I was an untitled bum. Now I have responsibilities and street cred, which creates a lot of pressure to live up to the expectations.



 That's okay, Bar, our expectations of you are VERY low. Don't worry, dude.



More seriously, BFG, I disagree. I'm in favour of a certain amount of elitism -- we _did_ pay, and therefore we _should_ get perks. If people want perks, people can pay.

I don't even see how you can call this elitism -- is a shoe store elitist because it only gives shoes to people who pay for them? Not at all. This site provides a service -- an immensely valuable service -- that many people are willing to pay for. Given that people are willing to PAY for this service, it seems foolish to me to just give it away. That will only degrade the value of the service itself.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> It's Quid Pro Quo.
> 
> We paid out to help support the site, ergo, we get to use schnazziness.  Not saying other people are jerks for not, but it's an incentive; if you want custom titles, PMs, and Search functions, then donate to help keep the site running.




The concept of Quid Pro Quo defines the existing condition of elitism.

Let me ask you this: Would you still have donated to ENWorld or bought a CS if you already had the ability to use the search function? 

I'm betting you and most others would answer this question "Yes". 

Because you love this site, the access to data you enjoy, and the spirit of comraderie with your fellow posters. 

If ENWorld can earn more than enough money to pay for server upgrades that can handle more traffic & queries, and all other expenses (bandwidth, ENnies etc...) through an annual fund raiser, then why should anyone ( new user, cash strapped student etc..) be denied any of the boards functionality?


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## Morrus (Dec 11, 2003)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> In order for ENWorld to prosper in the long term, new users must join the fold and utilize the resources here. Otherwise they just won't stick around. For every lurker who has posted regarding the search function, I bet there have been many more who just left in frustration.
> 
> What use is a shiny avatar, when all you want to do is quickly get some DM tips or rules based help? Avatars and signatures are only important to the most frequent messageboard posters. Infrequent users don't care about these much. They ceratinly don't want to hear a "sales pitch" on their first attempt to locate something in the archives. After bookmarking ENWorld, they will come back if they found the site useful.



Have you some evidence that I don't have that EN World isn't "prospering", usercount-wise? Because the figures I have say otherwise.  I'm really not sure where you're getting these conclusions from.


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## Grazzt (Dec 11, 2003)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism
> n.
> 
> The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or *financial* resources.
> ...




What's wrong with that?


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 11, 2003)

I have to admit that I probably wouldn't have donated unless the site was in trouble, BFG; I'm a procrastinator.  And even when I did, I had no clue that I was getting a CS out of the deal.


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## Femerus the Gnecro (Dec 11, 2003)

I don't get it.  

You're saying that Community Supporters are 'elitist,' but that we also enjoy



			
				BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> a spirit of comraderie with [our] fellow posters




Is _that_ a non sequitur? 

-F


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Have you some evidence that I don't have that EN World isn't "prospering", usercount-wise? Because the figures I have say otherwise.  I'm really not sure where you're getting these conclusions from.





The point I was trying to make is that even more poeple would use ENWorld if they had access to the search function, not that ENWorld is not doing well now. ENWorld is very healthy now.

But, with that said, any good venture should look at ways to improve, instead of resting on it's laurels.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> That's okay, Bar, our expectations of you are VERY low. Don't worry, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Administrators have said in the past that the search function was a drain on resources, and thus reserved for CS's. Administrators have also said that purchasing a CS account was not buying the ability to search, but that this was a reward for become a supporter. 

It has become clear that CS accounts alone will not support ENWorld, and that an annual drive is required. 

The money will be there to support a server that can handle the extra searching.


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## Greatwyrm (Dec 11, 2003)

I found the lack of a search function for non-supporters annoying, too.  At the same time, something in me kept me from complaining that the free stuff wasn't good enough.  I never felt I had any room to complain that the functions that used the most resources weren't available to me at a time when I didn't feel like paying for them.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

Femerus the Gnecro said:
			
		

> I don't get it.
> 
> You're saying that Community Supporters are 'elitist,' but that we also enjoy
> 
> ...





Yes   

But that is the very thing I would like to change


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> I have to admit that I probably wouldn't have donated unless the site was in trouble, BFG; I'm a procrastinator.  And even when I did, I had no clue that I was getting a CS out of the deal.




I think most people feel this way, Blackshirt5. That is why future ENWorld fundraisers will do well, and keep this site running and improving for the long-term.


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## Umbran (Dec 11, 2003)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> The old paradigm of exclusively supporting ENWorld by selling individual CS accounts has failed.




No, it hasn't.  All that's changed is _when_ people buy individual CS accounts.

What the recent financial problems indicate is that unless the users are told otherwise, they will not donate enough.  This is very much like PBS in the US.  People buy a membership in their local public broadcasting station during a pledge drive, and generally not at other times.

And when people do donate to a public TV or radio station, they get perks too.  They get members magazines, they get gifts, and discounts at area retailers and museums...

So, EN World is like a public broadcast station, is all.  It still sells memberships. It still gives minor perks to those members.  The model works.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

Femerus the Gnecro said:
			
		

> I think you may have misread Talwyn's post, or maybe you didn't read the entire thread?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Talwyn just wanted to search, and couldn't.  Do you think we will see him/her again? Possibly, but probably not. Most new users aren't going to spend the time to make a post pointing out a percieved functionality error either. He/She
is just the type of poster we(I) want on these boards; someone who will participate to make a difference. 

I certainly do NOT think that all CS are elitist. 

If you haven't realized by now, my mission and message is the following: 

As we now have the resources to allow everyone to search, let's make it happen on the upcoming boards!


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Dec 11, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> No, it hasn't.  All that's changed is _when_ people buy individual CS accounts.
> 
> What the recent financial problems indicate is that unless the users are told otherwise, they will not donate enough.  This is very much like PBS in the US.  People buy a membership in their local public broadcasting station during a pledge drive, and generally not at other times.
> 
> ...




Repectfully, I feel that the CS model did not work. 

If you remember correctly, there was no initial offer of a CS account to donate when money was needed, but donate we did anyway. The sale of CS's did not cover the needed revenue.

Future ENWorld fundraisers will get the job done, and yes, there will be many perks or incentives by private and commercial entities to encourage donating. Using your example, perks for supporting PBS are not given at all donation levels.

The fundraiser is the new model. The CS sales were the old model that did not work. 

Also, I'm NOT saying that CS memberships should be unavailable for sale at anytime ( altough it is obvious that these alone cannot cover EnWorld's nut) . I'm just lobbying for giving the right to search to anyone on the new server.


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## Gez (Dec 11, 2003)

I felt this thread deserved to have the opinion of a non-CS.



Spoiler



I would be a CS, though, if I had two things that I'm missing: 1°, money; and 2°, a way to spend this money over the net. But that's irrelevant to the topic.



I don't care about the lack of PMs -- mails work better, anyway. The user-title thing, likewise, is a bit gadgety. I don't choose it either on NKL. (I got Biggus Dickus, it could have been worse. )

The only thing I miss is the Search function, but I'm devious enough to have found a way not to require it.

When I search for a given thread, through the careful use of my incredible memory, I remember the name of either the thread's title, or the thread starter's name, or both. Then it's just a question of sorting threads by thread starter or by title, and here you go.


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## Femerus the Gnecro (Dec 11, 2003)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> Talwyn just wanted to search, and couldn't.  Do you think we will see him/her again? Possibly, but probably not.




Talwyn's later post in the General Forum about planescape tends to disprove your (baseless, I think) assumption.  This site is ridiculously addictive, search capability or no.

The point of the boards isn't the search feature, it's the community.  If the search feature was disabled entirely, do you think the boards would wither and die?  I highly doubt it.  

I can respect your views on the subject, and I applaud your willingness to support equity for all ENworld users, but frankly I think that those of us who donated have earned the features which happily came bundled with our peace of mind in knowing that ENworld will continue into the future.  

-F


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 11, 2003)

Femerus the Gnecro said:
			
		

> I can respect your views on the subject, and I applaud your willingness to support equity for all ENworld users, but frankly I think that those of us who donated have earned the features which happily came bundled with our peace of mind in knowing that ENworld will continue into the future.




_Ditto_.


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## barsoomcore (Dec 11, 2003)

I don't feel that I have earned these features. I prefer to imagine that I'm actually implementing a cunning plan to steal them.


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## Desdichado (Dec 12, 2003)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> Let me ask you this: Would you still have donated to ENWorld or bought a CS if you already had the ability to use the search function?
> 
> I'm betting you and most others would answer this question "Yes".



I"m not sure what you mean here.  When I first got my CS account, it was specifically so I could search and have the title.  Well, sorta; I did want to "give back" but the incentive was what really made it happen, IMO.

When I donated again in the "crisis moment" we had a month or so ago, that had nothing to do with it, of course.  I already had my CS account at that point.


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## Umbran (Dec 12, 2003)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> I'm just lobbying for giving the right to search to anyone on the new server.




Respectfully, before you start lobbying for what functions be available to whom on the new server, you might want to know what the new server will be, what kind of power it will have, and how quickly the added strain and site membership growth will call for yet _another_ new server.  

That whole counting chickens before they're hatched thing, and all that


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## MerakSpielman (Dec 12, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> I felt this thread deserved to have the opinion of a non-CS.



How 'bout another one?

I also have to watch my money closely. I had to tell my church I can't afford to pledge any money this year. If I had money to spend, I would gladly spend it here.

But yet, I've never really missed the elitist functionaly of the Community Supporter account. I've never really wanted to search for a topic. There's so much to read as it is, and if I'm curious about something, I just post a question and I can almost guarentee I'll get an accurate reply within 24 hours (on a slow day). I have no use for the CS functionality. If those that have it feel superior, good for them.


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## darkbard (Dec 12, 2003)

i'll disagree with gez on the private messaging issue.  i do feel less part of the community [that i've been a member of since the very beginning, even before the advent of the 'boards, if memory serves] when i'm playing in a PbP game and want to communicate directly with the DM or another player via PM and cannot do so.  sure, there's email, but it makes more sense to have instant PMing that you're accessing while at the ENWorld site.


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## Macbeth (Dec 12, 2003)

Really, is a CS account all that different? Since I've had mine I've:

Added a custom title.
Changed the Title twice (actually one was Pkitty changing it, but the effect is the same)
Searched MAYBE 15 times.

Out of the above things, The custom title is nothing but a bit of fun, and if I REALLY needed to search, i could have asked for somebodies help. I don't think there is any kind of "devide" between CSs and Non-CSs, these boards are just too tight knit for us to be devided over something so inane as who can donate (or do work around the site) and who can't.


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## Mark Chance (Dec 12, 2003)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> While I understand and feel you are right I just want to say that a few people here are gods and I feel honored to walk in their shadow.




Just don't get too much into my shadow. It's crowded enough in there.


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## BSF (Dec 12, 2003)

I like having access to the Search function just because it has allowed me to find stuff I _should_ have subscribed to the first time I saw it.  Then I can subscribe once I have relocated it.  

The title, is a fun thing to play with when I am bored.  I haven't used a PM yet.  

I have seen plenty of people perform a search when somebody asks a specific question.  Heck, I have seen Piratecat help out the "mere registered users" in that regard.  So, you just can't try an endless number of searches unless you are a CS.  

I understand what BFG is getting at.  There is an enormous amount of information here and it is hard to mine it when you first start frequenting the boards.  But, I haven't ever felt an overbearing elitist attitude from the board when I was a "Registered User" and didn't have access to all the bells and whistles.


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## jdavis (Dec 13, 2003)

Maybe the problem here is that all us special community supporter people are not elitist enough, maybe if we lorded over the place more and put people without custom titles down then the community supporter thing might of worked? Maybe it's the lack of any elitism at all that is working against us here. 

Seriously I've used the search fuction a couple of times just to try it out but it was something I never really wanted before I donated anyway, something I do want is for the boards to be as quick as possible, it's bad enough I'm on dial up hear not to mention the slow downs we already have, the server upgrade should be to make the place better and faster and more stable not so more people can search for stuff (if it's important to search for you can always post in Meta and somebody will help you out anyway). Besides if people are actually going to stop coming around because they don't have a search function well then that's sort of silly, they have sort of missed the point of the (non-elitist) community here.


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