# Wizards R&D Seminar at GenCon 2007



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

I'm at the seminar now, and I'll post my notes in a minute.  Live report!

Any questions you want me to ask?


----------



## JoeBlank (Aug 17, 2007)

We want to know the core classes and races for 4e. See if you can get them to give up that info!


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 17, 2007)

Yeah -- is 30 levels just 30 thinner slices of the same loaf, or is it the original 20 slice loaf plus another half a loaf?  

You can use a different metaphor if you want.  

Tell 'em Eric says hi!


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2007)

How are monsters changing in 4e?   Are they still going to be advanceable without tacking on class levels?   Are the types mostly unchanged?   Are they going to be mostly true to their past edition incarnations, or are they being retconned "Monster Makeover" style?

Thanks!


----------



## Drkfathr1 (Aug 17, 2007)

Will monsters still have types and subtypes similar to what they are now?


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Aug 17, 2007)

Are skills done like saga or do we still have the freedom of spending skill points?


----------



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> We want to know the core classes and races for 4e. See if you can get them to give up that info!




"Nope, we want you to sign up for D&D Insider." - Chris Thomassan


----------



## Someone (Aug 17, 2007)

Are the classes customizable as they made in Saga, or have them become more rigid? How the game is supposed to reduce preparation time - less info needed for monsters, less spells and skills, or does it rely entirely on electronic applications?


----------



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

Yes, Saga is a significant "preview" of 4th Edition


----------



## Friadoc (Aug 17, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> "Nope, we want you to sign up for D&D Insider." - Chris Thomassan




*chuckles*

Nice, can't say I blame them.

I'm giving it some serious thought, just for the playtest possibility.

Of course, I'd need to see the sign-up thing first.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

Drkfathr1 said:
			
		

> Will monsters still have types and subtypes similar to what they are now?




Very different.  Monsters fill key "roles" in encounters.   All the stuff Mike Mearls was talking about on the Wizards website, that's all 4e.  Mike's on the design team.


----------



## Friadoc (Aug 17, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> Very different.  Monsters fill key "rolls" in encounters.   All the stuff Mike was talking about on the Wizards website, that's all 4e.  Mikes on the design team.




Mearls?

Very cool.

If the quality of his contribution is anywhere near his normal work, ala Iron Heroes, then awesome.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Yeah -- is 30 levels just 30 thinner slices of the same loaf, or is it the original 20 slice loaf plus another half a loaf?
> 
> You can use a different metaphor if you want.
> 
> Tell 'em Eric says hi!




1-10 Heroic
11 - 20 Paragon
21 - 30 Epic

More to follow...


----------



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

Here's a great quote from Chris, "A lot of things are going to be changing, and we're going to put most of it in previews on D&D Insider, but I can assure you the Beholder will still only have 9 eyes."


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Aug 17, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> Yes, Saga is a significant "preview" of 4th Edition




HOW MUCH OF A SECRET IS WHETHER THERE ARE SKILL POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ARGH!!!!


----------



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

Ok, here we go...Data Dump commence!!!!

Team has been working on 4th Edition for over two years.
Bill Slaviseck
Leads: Rob Heinsoo, Andy Collins, and James Wyatt
Bill, Andy, Mike Mearls, and Rich Baker were the one's in the front of the room for this.
Playtesting in campaigns at WoTC (ie, Dave Noonan’s game) for the past several months


----------



## Shawn_Kehoe (Aug 17, 2007)

Question!

Lots of prestige classes (Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, etc) were introduced in 3.5 because the multiclassing rules were too punishing to spellcasters. Will these classes still be needed in 4.0?

Thanks!


----------



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

Seminar's over.


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 17, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> Seminar's over.




Cool, thanks for the invite, and I'm looking forward to the rest of your report.


----------



## Odhanan (Aug 17, 2007)

Are there skill points in 4E? Attacks of Opportunity?

When they say 'short stat blocks', how short are we talking?


----------



## Drkfathr1 (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks Ashockney!


----------



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

Resource Management
All classes have defined roles – a fighter is never penalized for being a “tank”, a “healer” is never penalized for curing, a mage is never penalized for “magic missiling”

All characters have at will, per encounter, and per day uses they will have to keep track of. 
No more mages pulling out crossbows.  You will never be penalized for doing what you do best – your clearly defined roles.

Encounters will be built differently in 4th edition
There will be much more “situation” and complexity in the environment, swinging bridges, gouts of lava, etc.
An encounter is like a scene of a play – could be talking to a town guard, could be defending a town gate, could be traversing the mountainside to enter the shrine of Asmodeus.

There will be many more monsters for PC’s to fight.  It’s more fun that way.  There are very few encounters that are built to be all the PC’s against one big powerful bad guy.  There will be more mechanics built to leverage the monsters and THEY’RE fundadmental roles.  An ettin will be talking to itself throughout the encounter.  This is the “monster’s job on the battlefield” this is how he reacts.  

The fog of war is much more interesting because when you approach an orc, he isn’t a set of specific stats.  He has a very specific role, and you won’t know what it is until he unleashes it on the battlefield.  


Heroic	1-10
Paragon 11-20
Epic	21-30

Increase of magic across the board in all aspects of the game.

Monster Manual is a 288 pagebook, with over 300 monsters
New format for stat blocks, simpler and easier to use

D&D is still a Tabletop RPG – now it could be in person or on internet

Cooperative storytelling
The D&D world is points of light in a big dark world, sword and sorcery (medevil fantasy)
Lots of blank spaces on the map

Greyhawk will not be default setting in core
We want to leverage the assets of the assumed parts of a D&D world – Mordenkainen, Bigby, Vecna, Llolth, Tiamat, Asmodeus, etc.  However, we also want to call upon the great mythology that is more commonly known such as Thor, etc.

More options, not restrictions.  Everyone will be a constructive, useful member of the party, no accidental lame characters

Vancian magic system – there’s an element of that we held on to, but it’s a much smaller fraction of their overall power.  A wizard will never completely run out of spells.  They can run out of their “mordenkainen’s sword, however”.  

D20 gaming system – this is still a d20 game and game system.  We got rid of the parts that didn’t help it out, but most of the things that work continue to be used.

Skill system – familiar but truncated.  Getting rid of tailor, rope use, etc.  Focus on the skills that are really useful in an encounter.  Saga edition is a significant stride forward and should be considered a preview.  Same for profression, etc.  We want characters making acrobatics, bluff, jump, etc.  No characters will be stuck at 10th level saying “oh I never invested in that.”  Hide/Move Silent are brought together.  Now an important part of your character, and here’s how to apply it to an encounter.  It’s rarely a check and done, it’s now, I make a check, and they react to it.  What happens now.

Primarily focused on physical products (PH, MM, DMG).

Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players.  This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow

4 parts of 4E
Physical Products
Community
Organized Play – conventions, tournaments, etc.
 Working much closer with R&D to integrate
 Chris Tulac(?) part of the playtesting, in from the ground up
Digital Offerings
  Think  of this like the second DVD with “extras”

Character Building: Less feat trees, easier for characters to swap out abilities much easier and try different things out.  Each level from 1 – 30 each character will have interesting character development options to choose.  

Personalizing and specializing your character is amped up, it’s one of the most powerful things about 4th edition.  If you’re a barbarian, you’re not a frenzied berserker.  If you’re a barbarian, you’re a barbarian for your entire career.  The frenzied berserker and bear warrior will be at the very end.

Multiclassing – lots of compelling and interesting choices.  A fighter who dabbles in wizard or dabbles in cleric is something compelling,  Andy’s brother is playing a rogue wizard and he’s said in the conversion this is the character I wanted to play all along.  The choices and powers are good powers on both sides.  Backstab, throw chromatic orb across the room, then teleport across the room.  There is no more “crappy fightrer” attached to a “crappy wizard”

XP not getting rid, and for those not comfortable with eyeballing it will have a clear time as to when to advance.  Much easier for the DM.  I’ll build a level 8 encounter, totaling 8000 xp, this one, plus this one = 8000 done.  No tables.  Monsters have a level, just like characters.  “A group vs. a “group” of 5th level is about the same as an EL5 encounter today.  

4 player groups as the baseline?  They are aiming for right around 5.  Encounters are more modular, and now that there are a bunch, it’s a lot easier to scale it.  Most data is 4-6 players are 80% or more of the gaming groups out there.

Iron Heroes vs. 4th Edition – Mike 
Yes, there are some similiarities, ie, putting more emphasis on the class vs. the items for characters.

D&D Insider – DRM, Downloadable vs. view online
We are still investigating, digital issues will be usable without being connected.  Books – You will need to be logged in to use them.  Still working out how to make this work for you and for us.

Will the Wizard and Sorcerer merge?  No.  How many core classes?  More than 3 less than 15, see the “pre-releases” at Wizards.com

“We had an expression from earlier discussions, the ranger kills the scout and takes his stuff…sorry Scout, you’re not going to make it.  But now the Ranger’s going to be cooler because he’s taking all your stuff.”

Do you know why the sorcerer’s in the game (3.5)?  1/3 of the PH was supporting only one class, hence the sorcerer came about.

Monstrous races?  Can you still make kobold barbarians?  
We’re not going to put limitations on the way we build monsters to make them work right.  We know there are monsters that will become player character races.  For example, it will be obvious how to play a goblin PC right out of the monster manual and PH.

Will the D&D Insider authors be considered “canon”?   Yes, it is our intention to treat this material as integral to the game and to the campaign worlds.  

Will alignment be a factor in the new edition? 
It’s not going to be what it is now.  Alignment is part of the story, part of the character.  It is a useful shorthand, but too many books and too many players mistake it for limitation.  We want to treat alignment as something bigger than that.  We won’t get rid of it, but we don’t want it to be a replacement for character and personality.

Platform compatability? 
Starting with PC, because there are more.

When can we start to play? 
Module comes out in April, with Quick Start rules.  You could start that early.
All the great content in Dragon and Dungeon magazines will be 4e, and will be relevant to 4e.  We can start playing a month early.

Magical Item Creation – they will no longer use Magic Item XP.  XP are NOT a resource to be spent.  

FR will be the first campaign setting they support for 4e.  They will get around to all of them, much of it will be available early on D&D Insider.

Every adventure we put in Dungeon magazine will be portable to the Digital Gametable. 

Magic Item Creation
We tried to fool ourselves into the fact that there was a hard pricing, but we started recognizing that with MIC, that we should look at them more wholistically.  There will not be magic item creation rules for DM’s as we realize that as professional game designers we don’t even get it right every time.  We’re going to give you lots and lots of examples and suggest that you build it, test it, etc.  Will it be easier for a wizard to create magic items? 

Yes, characters can still build magic items, it will be a way for characters to acquire things, but it will be more flexible and easier.  There will be a preview article on this in two weeks on D&D Insider.  Three releases a week (this one will be on Wed).

Design philosophies on races.  There is a tiefling on the player’s handbook.  There may also be a changeling (from Eberron).  Design philosophies of races.  Mike did all the talking, where there will be a very REAL ACTIVE difference within the races that will really make a difference between the Dwarf Fighter and an Elven Fighter.  

Will we be doing ECL?
That’s a good example of something applied to the game to help make somethings work easier.  We don’t want to recreate this.  We’re not going to give you rules to play a blink dog fighter…  There will be many more choices, however, and we want to make sure they are all playable right out of the gate.  If say, for instance, we put a tiefling in the PH, we would certainly want to make it playable right out of the gate.  So, for example, we might have had to make a lot of the other races a little bit cooler to keep the balance straight between the races.  

Grazzt will be in the Demonomicon on D&D Insider in October.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

AOO - 

It won't be the same thing, but the conepts are all there.  Please note that things ARE still in development.  Nothing's finalized yet.


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 17, 2007)

Nice work, thank you!


----------



## ashockney (Aug 17, 2007)

Whew!

Too bad the lying liar that lied (Mr. Rouse) SWORE there would be no announement this year.  As a result, I made no plans to attend (spending all my "family points" on Origins this year).  

Yeah, well, too bad about that.  Called off work, drove over here from Columbus, and been "absorbing" 4e all day.

It is my distinct honor to do my very, very small part to carry forward your torch Eric.  

I've been around from the beginnings of this crazy thing, and I'm excited as heck for what's to come.


----------



## Shawn_Kehoe (Aug 17, 2007)

The lack of initial Mac compatibility is a bitter disappointment.

I don't suppose that I'll get a price break on the D&DI since they aren't offering me all of the services. 

Great work summarising the seminar!

Shawn


----------



## Hjorimir (Aug 17, 2007)

I'm in conflict with, "Increase of magic across the board in all aspects of the game" and "Yes, there are some similiarities, ie, putting more emphasis on the class vs. the items for characters."

I hope the second quote is the more accurate of the two.

Thanks for the report!


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Aug 17, 2007)

Thank you Ashockey, that's awesome.

It's a lot of information to absorb, and I'm not happy with 100% of it (haha, who is eh?), particularly not this 5 people, "defined roles" crap (which seems at odds with valid multiclassing), which sounds like WoW to me, but it generally sounds like a significant turn for the more interesting on the whole. I can't wait, and I hope we get regular injections of further info!


----------



## Friadoc (Aug 17, 2007)

Shawn_Kehoe said:
			
		

> The lack of initial Mac compatibility is a bitter disappointment.
> 
> I don't suppose that I'll get a price break on the D&DI since they aren't offering me all of the services.
> 
> ...





I'm with you on that one, Shawn, I was really, really hoping for Mac support. However, I'll wait a bit and see what the tech is actually based on before I worry too much.

I've seen a lot of web-based stuff where a person who is not a techie gives the standard, we support PC junk, and the web platform works on everything.

Feh, though, if it doesn't.

Big feh.


----------



## Glyfair (Aug 17, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> Resource Management
> All classes have defined roles – a fighter is never penalized for being a “tank”, a “healer” is never penalized for curing, a mage is never penalized for “magic missiling”




That sounds like the discussions about wizards having a warlock like ability even after they run out of spells.  



> No more mages pulling out crossbows.



I'll bet this will be misunderstood.  I bet it means that wizards will have a "magic missle" available always, so he won't have to rely on backup weapons.


----------



## Kaodi (Aug 17, 2007)

Based on that, I am wondering if 4e is going to be a better " game " , but 3e will remain a more versatile one. Does no blink dog fighters mean that you can't play a blink dog, ever, or that you can only advance as a blink dog?


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 17, 2007)

(I always felt that way too much effort was put on finding ways to make different monster types playable as PC races.  Hopefully with 4E that will be as much a DM call as pricing homebrewed magic items.)


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 17, 2007)

Interesting stuff. 

Still cryptic but at least a bit of a picture is given.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Aug 17, 2007)

Good info. Thanks for the summary.


----------



## Mortellan (Aug 17, 2007)

Greyhawk is freed of the core world designation! YES!

Graz'zt Demonomicon article in D&D Insider? Doh!


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> Here's a great quote from Chris, "A lot of things are going to be changing, and we're going to put most of it in previews on D&D Insider, but I can assure you the Beholder will still only have 9 eyes."




I checked the new artwork and that does seem to be the case.

It looks like the classic monsters are going to get seriously overhauled.

A little part of me just died.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 17, 2007)

Mortellan said:
			
		

> Greyhawk is freed of the core world designation! YES!




That, coupled with the earlier "One Setting Book a Year" might actually mean we get a Greyhawk setting book...


----------



## Odhanan (Aug 17, 2007)

Thank you Ashockey. Very good reporting!


----------



## Mortellan (Aug 17, 2007)

Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players. This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow

Whoa. Starting fresh...with new PLAYERS? This tells me LG is done done or am I confused?


----------



## Remathilis (Aug 17, 2007)

Yay Changlings! 

Good stuff here. Thank you.


----------



## Treebore (Aug 17, 2007)

Mortellan said:
			
		

> Graz'zt Demonomicon article in D&D Insider? Doh!





I'm glad this is during the free period.


----------



## Glyfair (Aug 17, 2007)

Mortellan said:
			
		

> Whoa. Starting fresh...with new PLAYERS? This tells me LG is done done or am I confused?




Given the focus on "we found upgrading didn't work well before" POV, I imagine they want to avoid all that nastiness and are just going to wrap things up and start over.


----------



## marune (Aug 17, 2007)

D&D 4E won't be my ideal RPG, however from what I've read above, IMHO it will be a much better game than 3.xE.


----------



## wagnert (Aug 17, 2007)

*Dungeon/Dragon Magazines*



			
				ashockney said:
			
		

> Every adventure we put in Dungeon magazine will be portable to the Digital Gametable.
> 
> .



But August 2007 is the last issue of both Dungeon and Dragon magazines?

Are they now going to take them back in house after spinning Paizo out originally to publish them?


----------



## Michael Morris (Aug 17, 2007)

*1st 4e seminar notes*

Also posted on the news page. Discuss.

The following is some of the information that came out during the 2 PM (CT) seminar here at Gencon concerning 4th edition.

Mike Mearls is the lead developer for 4th edition. The other panelists where Rich Baker, Andy Collins and Bill Slavesiek


The 3.5 Rules Compendium will be something of a last hurrah for 3e, "A celebration and compilation" (Bill Slavesiek). The book will feature an encyclopedia like layout and have designer commentaries on why the rules were structured are the way they are.
Many of the products between now and may will have 4e material for them on D&D Insider
Elder Evils was discussed. It is a compilation of mini adventures structured around famous super monsters that aren't quite god level in power such as Kezef Chaos Hound and Dendar the Night Serpent.
Some new monsters from the 4e Monster Manual will debut in D&D miniatures in November
Books that are being put out between now and May will be of an "edition proof" nature.
Dungeon Survival Guide was discussed. It will be a pictorial tabletop / coffeetop book that takes you through famous dungeons in D&D including the Tomb of Horrors and the original Castle Ravenloft.
Innfighting was announced - it is a non collectabale dice game designed by Rob Heisno. It is to dice what Three Dragon Ante was to cards.
In the Forgotten Realms _A Grand History of the Realms_ will be released as a book. This is an adaptation of the web release of the same name with new art and additional entries from authors including Ed Greenwood and Eric Boyd.
Wizards Presents series will lead into 4e. To products where discussed - classes and races; and worlds and monsters.
April will have an introductory adventure with quick start materials for 4e.
The cover of the Player's Handbook cover is finalized. DMG and MM are close to final.
Here are some highlights among the quesitons asked.

How many core classes - this question was repeatedly avoided until it was admitted there would be fewer than the current number (11). How fewer and who was cut wasn't discussed.
Character classes which haven't been classes before now have resources to manage
similar to spells.
Character Powers are to be sorted into at will, per encounter and per day.
Vancian 'spell slots' will be reduced in how much they control a caster's total ability.
Encounters are going to be wholly redesigned
Monsters will have roles outlined in the MM. Monster design will be more open ended. Not all monsters will have information necessary to make them playable characters.
Monster Manual is 288 pages and the DMG 256 pages
Assumed world that will be "points of light in a dark world."
Question of whether Greyhawk will be the the default world was avoided, however Greyhawk proper names will remain.
To the question of whether XP will be required to make magic items Andy Collins replied, "No, Hell No."  How magic items will be made in character wasn't discussed beyond a vague statement that you wouldn't be burning a feat on it, and out of character the structure of magic item creation will become more loosened.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 17, 2007)

When are gnomes coming back? 

None of the leaked 2008 books seem to be an obvious home for them.


----------



## thundershot (Aug 17, 2007)

The only thing I DON'T like is that bit about using monsters as PC's. It took me years to have an official Giff and Sylph to use for my 3E campaign. I LIKE having playable monsters. At least the humanoid ones.... Ah well. I'm starting over with a brand new campaign anyway...

In any case, I can't wait!

Chris


----------



## Odhanan (Aug 17, 2007)

wagnert said:
			
		

> But August 2007 is the last issue of both Dungeon and Dragon magazines?
> 
> Are they now going to take them back in house after spinning Paizo out originally to publish them?



_Dragon_ and _Dungeon_ are now part of D&D Insider. See dndinsider.com for more information and previews.


----------



## Glyfair (Aug 17, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> [*]Some new monsters from the 4e Monster Manual will debut in D&D miniatures in November




*New* monsters in the MM?  I wonder how many.


----------



## Doug McCrae (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks a lot, ashockney.

My take on what you posted is:

"In 4e everyone knows kung fu. Including the monsters."


----------



## Remathilis (Aug 17, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> When are gnomes coming back?
> 
> None of the leaked 2008 books seem to be an obvious home for them.




leaked 2008 books? Did I miss something?


----------



## Hjorimir (Aug 17, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> The cover of the Player's Handbook cover is finalized. DMG and MM are close to final.



That's a bummer, because that's the one of the three I really didn't care for at all.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Aug 17, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players.  This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow



I'm cautiously optimistic. I'm one of the Living Greyhawk regional triads. Knowing whether I'm going to be escorting a campaign that is slowly circling the drain into oblivion is one thing. It is another if I'm going to be around to help set up a restart.







			
				ashockney said:
			
		

> Platform compatability?
> Starting with PC, because there are more.



This is a solid kick in the nuts, a punch in the gut, with a middle finger to my face. Seeing WotC's execution on D&D Insider right now leaves me with no confidence I'll ever see feature-equivalence (_if ever that!_) on my platform of choice. *hangs head*


----------



## Michael Morris (Aug 17, 2007)

ashockney, I'm in the rightmost chair of the second row.  If your are at the 6PM seminar and see this please see me. You're better at news article posting than I am, I'd rather work with you on getting notes on on the 6 PM OGL / 4e seminar in line please


----------



## The Mirrorball Man (Aug 17, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> Resource Management
> Encounters will be built differently in 4th edition
> There will be much more “situation” and complexity in the environment, swinging bridges, gouts of lava, etc.
> An encounter is like a scene of a play – could be talking to a town guard, could be defending a town gate, could be traversing the mountainside to enter the shrine of Asmodeus.
> ...



What does that have to do with a new edition? Isn't all that pretty much the DM's turf?


----------



## Remathilis (Aug 17, 2007)

The Mirrorball Man said:
			
		

> What does that have to do with a new edition? Isn't all that pretty much the DM's turf?




Last Friday, I ran an encounter for 5th level PCs. It featured.

* A small area underground.
* 14 orc war1
* 3 Ranger4
* 1 Goblin Cleric7
* Wild Magic Zone
* the potential that spells can free powerful aberrations.

the books I had open were:
* Players Handbook (cleric's spells, later, the confusion table)
* DMG (Wild Magic Table)
* Explorer's Handbook (most of the info for the encounter, including stat blocks)
* Lords of Madness (when the Gibbering Mouther was freed)
* Monster Manual (Orcs at first, then the devourer freed. Stupid spellcasters)

Anything that can reduce me, the DM from using six books to run one encounter is A+ in my book...


----------



## The Mirrorball Man (Aug 17, 2007)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> Anything that can reduce me, the DM from using six books to run one encounter is A+ in my book...



That's a very good point but prepackaged encounters sounds a lot like TV dinners to me. I'm a DM. I like to cook.


----------



## green slime (Aug 17, 2007)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> Anything that can reduce me, the DM from using six books to run one encounter is A+ in my book...




I'd have prepped a page of handwritten text with the neccessary details, and winged the rest. I find it hard to see how a new edition is going to remove the monster prep.


----------



## Razz (Aug 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I checked the new artwork and that does seem to be the case.
> 
> It looks like the classic monsters are going to get seriously overhauled.
> 
> A little part of me just died.




A lot of sacred cows are going to be at the slaughterhouse, apparently. This one about the beholder is just the beginning...sad sad time for D&D.


----------



## Agamon (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks ashockney and Michael.  The news you delivered, unfortunely hasn't chnaged my mind.  In fact, I'm trying not to hurt myself as I bang my head on the wall.  At first blush, I'm not liking 30 levels, classic monster changing, at will/per encounter/per day abilites, play-it-by-ear magic item creation, and worst of all, keeping alignment (no matter how they treat it).

I'm very wary of ability swapping, platform compatibity and encounter design.

I like the skill ideas, though.  And if Innfighting is as fun to play as Three-Dragon Ante, I'm game for that.

 :\


----------



## KingCrab (Aug 17, 2007)

That was a lot more info than I expected.  Thanks for the recon!

Just a note or two on the info:

1. I'm expecting a lot of arguing about when an encounter actually ends and when a new one really begins with this new system.

2. I liked rope use.  It made snese to me.  Just cause someone can throw a grappling hook doesn't mean he/she knows how to make it brace against something.

3. I think hiding and staying still and moving silently should remain different skills.  Why would they be the same thing?


----------



## green slime (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks ashockney, 4wesome work!


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 18, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I'll bet this will be misunderstood.  I bet it means that wizards will have a "magic missle" available always, so he won't have to rely on backup weapons.




I suspect it'll look more like the Complete Mage [Reserve] feats than "magic missile all day".


----------



## marune (Aug 18, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> A lot of sacred cows are going to be at the slaughterhouse, apparently. This one about the beholder is just the beginning...sad sad time for D&D.




IMHO, that nostalgy was the biggest problem the 3.x designers encountered.

It wont be long before many thanks Mearls for hacking those cows in little pieces.


----------



## Kaodi (Aug 18, 2007)

I'm betting on 9 classes.


----------



## Wormwood (Aug 18, 2007)

KingCrab said:
			
		

> 3. I think hiding and staying still and moving silently should remain different skills.  Why would they be the same thing?




Why should sneaking past a guard required *two* separate skills, but bluffing him, intimidating him, or wearing a disguise requires only one?

Extraneous rolls are not fun.


----------



## Wormwood (Aug 18, 2007)

skeptic said:
			
		

> IMHO, that nostalgy was the biggest problem the 3.x designers encountered.
> 
> It wont be long before many thanks Mearls for hacking those cows in little pieces.




One man's sacred cow is another man's klunky vestigial artifact.


----------



## marune (Aug 18, 2007)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Why should sneaking past a guard required *two* separate skills, but bluffing him, intimidating him, or wearing a disguise requires only one?
> 
> Extraneous rolls are not fun.




That's it ! And you can see in the Skills part of the text that many boring "you roll, fail and nothing happens" will be eliminated, that's wonderful!


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 18, 2007)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> leaked 2008 books? Did I miss something?



The 2008 PHB thread has some information from the Israeli distributor of what books to look for in 2008. Arcane magic, melee combat, dragons and some other stuff all get books. Unless gnomes will be in the arcane magic splatbook, reappearing in "an early supplement" might mean 2009. 

Honestly, I hope that whatever PHB races they axe shows up, in at least draft form for 10 levels or so, on D&D Insider.


----------



## Sammael (Aug 18, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> The 2008 PHB thread has some information from the Israeli distributor of what books to look for in 2008. Arcane magic, melee combat, dragons and some other stuff all get books. Unless gnomes will be in the arcane magic splatbook, reappearing in "an early supplement" might mean 2009.



FRCS 4E will be out in August...


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 18, 2007)

Sammael said:
			
		

> FRCS 4E will be out in August...



Noooooooo!


----------



## F4NBOY (Aug 18, 2007)

> Character Powers are to be sorted into at will, per encounter and per day.
> Vancian 'spell slots' will be reduced in how much they control a caster's total ability.




Take a look at this article Monte Cook wrote some time ago:
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_Spellcasters


----------



## F4NBOY (Aug 18, 2007)

> There will be much more “situation” and complexity in the environment, swinging bridges, gouts of lava, etc.




It reminds me of the "combat zones" from Iron Heroes.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 18, 2007)

F4NBOY said:
			
		

> It reminds me of the "combat zones" from Iron Heroes.




Sure... 4e is looking more and more like a second bite at the Iron Heroes apple for Mearls.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Aug 18, 2007)

Please don't ascribe motives or cast aspersions on other members of ENWorld, thank you.

--Dinkeldog/Moderator


----------



## Irda Ranger (Aug 18, 2007)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Sure... 4e is looking more and more like a second bite at the Iron Heroes apple for Mearls.



i'm all about that. I've been playing Iron Heroes the last year and a half, and it rocks.  It needed some serious work to get into shape (because of Mearls going to WotC and not finishing it), but the promise and potential was all there.

I am very sad about the PC-only (which I suspect means WinXP and Vista) support though. Insider is dead to me, and to my group. Three Mac users and a Linux geek and a Win NT grognard aren't getting any love.


----------



## Irda Ranger (Aug 18, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> Resource Management
> All classes have defined roles – a fighter is never penalized for being a “tank”, a “healer” is never penalized for curing, a mage is never penalized for “magic missiling”



Sounds like we still have to convince someone to play the cleric though ...

Other than that, this all looks awesome.  Thanks ashockey!!!


----------



## Aloïsius (Aug 18, 2007)

> To the question of whether XP will be required to make magic items Andy Collins replied, "No, Hell No." How magic items will be made in character wasn't discussed beyond a vague statement that *you wouldn't be burning a feat on it*, and out of character the structure of magic item creation will become more loosened.



Yay !


----------



## Elephant (Aug 18, 2007)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Please don't ascribe motives or cast aspersions on other members of ENWorld, thank you.
> 
> --Dinkeldog/Moderator




Huh?  I was reading the thread, and this seemed glaringly out of place.  Who is casting aspersions?


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 18, 2007)

Actually I was wondering the same thing.  Thought maybe this was maybe a mistaken reply to a different thread?


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 18, 2007)

The Mirrorball Man said:
			
		

> What does that have to do with a new edition? Isn't all that pretty much the DM's turf?



Apparently, props, pacing, characterization, and sense of humour are all now strictly controlled in the 4E core rules.  Ettin heads must talk to each other.  Period.  End of discussion.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 18, 2007)

skeptic said:
			
		

> IMHO, that nostalgy was the biggest problem the 3.x designers encountered.
> 
> It wont be long before many thanks Mearls for hacking those cows in little pieces.



"He sliced a chunk off the beholder once.  Now he's back to finish the job."

Mike Mearls is: The Game Designer.


----------



## Glyfair (Aug 18, 2007)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> I suspect it'll look more like the Complete Mage [Reserve] feats than "magic missile all day".



I don't think so.  They have said "once you run out of spells you won't be useless" whereas reserve feats are "as long as you save a spell you won't be useless."


----------



## Glyfair (Aug 18, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> The 2008 PHB thread has some information from the Israeli distributor of what books to look for in 2008. Arcane magic, melee combat, dragons and some other stuff all get books. Unless gnomes will be in the arcane magic splatbook, reappearing in "an early supplement" might mean 2009.
> 
> Honestly, I hope that whatever PHB races they axe shows up, in at least draft form for 10 levels or so, on D&D Insider.




Half-orcs could be in the melee combat book.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 18, 2007)

Elephant said:
			
		

> Huh?  I was reading the thread, and this seemed glaringly out of place.  Who is casting aspersions?




Me too-- since it follows my post, I hope my post wasn't seen as casting aspersions on Mearls...


----------



## RFisher (Aug 18, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> "Nope, we want you to sign up for D&D Insider." - Chris Thomassan




(>_<) Way to dowse my enthusiasm, Wizards! (9_9)

(^_^)


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Aug 18, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> When are gnomes coming back?
> 
> None of the leaked 2008 books seem to be an obvious home for them.



What about the _Monster Manual_?

They've commented that the _Player's Handbook_ and the _Monster Manual_ will give you everything you need to play a goblin PC - so why not gnomes?


----------



## Legildur (Aug 18, 2007)

Just to share a little laugh, I noticed the reference to dndinsider.com above and went to the page, clicked to add it to Favorites and went to rename it as simply '4th Edition', but accidently hit the shift key and typed '$th Edition' instead.  

Anyway, no idea yet whether my groups will migrate to 4th Edition (we've been playing The World's Largest Dungeon for 2 years and just made 8th level), but the 'fixes' to the magic item creation system sound great to me.


----------



## Glyfair (Aug 18, 2007)

Oops.  Wrong thread.


----------



## Talgian (Aug 18, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Mike Mearls is the lead developer for 4th edition. The other panelists where Rich Baker, Andy Collins and Bill Slavesiek.



Is this right? I thought all the other information, like the videos and the stuff at Wizards indicates that Collins, Cordell, and Heinsoo are the leads, and Mearls is under them.


----------



## eldritchknight (Aug 18, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> The 2008 PHB thread has some information from the Israeli distributor of what books to look for in 2008. Arcane magic, melee combat, dragons and some other stuff all get books. Unless gnomes will be in the arcane magic splatbook, reappearing in "an early supplement" might mean 2009.
> 
> Honestly, I hope that whatever PHB races they axe shows up, in at least draft form for 10 levels or so, on D&D Insider.




Can you give a link to this info?  I couldn't find it.  Thanks in advance!


----------



## Glyfair (Aug 18, 2007)

Talgian said:
			
		

> Is this right? I thought all the other information, like the videos and the stuff at Wizards indicates that Collins, Cordell, and Heinsoo are the leads, and Mearls is under them.




They are the lead *designers*, Mike is the lead *developer*, as I understand it.  

James Wyatt is heading the story team.


----------



## Glyfair (Aug 18, 2007)

eldritchknight said:
			
		

> Can you give a link to this info?  I couldn't find it.  Thanks in advance!




It's been over 24 hours, you want me to browse through 6 pages of posts on 4E?

Ok.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204147


----------



## Talgian (Aug 18, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> They are the lead *designers*, Mike is the lead *developer*, as I understand it.
> 
> James Wyatt is heading the story team.



Got it, thanks !

-Talgian


----------



## blargney the second (Aug 18, 2007)

If they go the SWSE route and ditch multiple attacks in favour of scaling damage/special maneuvers, I'm gonna be *such* a happy boy!  It'll go a very long way towards streamlining and speeding up combat.
-blarg


----------



## Agamon (Aug 18, 2007)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> I'm betting on 9 classes.




Maybe they'll call the PHB, "The Book of 9 Classes"!

Hope you like steak, it's what's for dinner!


----------



## The Mirrorball Man (Aug 18, 2007)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Apparently, props, pacing, characterization, and sense of humour are all now strictly controlled in the 4E core rules.  Ettin heads must talk to each other.  Period.  End of discussion.



"Before he draws his sword, the evil Drow overlord tells you joke #54".


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

Odhanan said:
			
		

> Are there skill points in 4E? Attacks of Opportunity?
> 
> When they say 'short stat blocks', how short are we talking?




See all the recent books for examples.  Having heard them describe it, and compare to stat blocks used in Saga edition, I picked up a copy of Shadowdale at the con.  I'm sure this is exactly what they're talking about.  The entire encounter fit on one easily referenceable page.  They are using a new stat block format, more similiar to the one found in Saga.  There are many more "monsters" for each encounter.  I recall, as I was picking up and looking through the Expedition books (Greyhawk, DemonWeb Pits, etc.) they were essentially using this same format.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

glyfair said:
			
		

> That sounds like the discussions about wizards having a warlock like ability even after they run out of spells.




Correct.  Exactly like the Warlock.  They even referenced him in the discussion.  They said many of the things we're going to see are like the later books.  The warlock for the "arcane" classes, and the Tome of Battle for the "martial" classes.




			
				glyfair said:
			
		

> I'll bet this will be misunderstood.  I bet it means that wizards will have a "magic missle" available always, so he won't have to rely on backup weapons.




Yes.  This got a rousing round of applause from the "way over capacity" audience in the room.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> Based on that, I am wondering if 4e is going to be a better " game " , but 3e will remain a more versatile one. Does no blink dog fighters mean that you can't play a blink dog, ever, or that you can only advance as a blink dog?




It meant, out of the player's handbook, because the way they're going to flesh everything out more in 4e for better balance, you will not be able to play a "blink dog fighter" at first level.  Instead, they are going to spend the time and energy necessary to really balance things out so that each race they make/print/publish will be playable from the get-go.  They said they fully intend to still have the ability to play anything there will be a demand for, plus a whole bunch of cool things they'll make up that nobody's thought of.  However, it will not all be in the PH in the beginning.   Or, in a format where you can just say, "Oh, a Blink Dog is this, so if my little brother wants to play a blink dog fighter, I'll just make him a Blink Dog (template) + a Level 1 Fighter".  Mike was talking about how the Dwarven Fighter and an Elven Fighter will be noticeably different characters.  He was referencing an example of how he want his dwarf to be able to just "stand there and take it" and not go down, not go down, not go down, etc.  He got really excited, and it sounded like he was referencing a character he'd played in a recent playtest, and that it had "worked out" that way.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> (I always felt that way too much effort was put on finding ways to make different monster types playable as PC races.  Hopefully with 4E that will be as much a DM call as pricing homebrewed magic items.)




Eric, this is almost a direct quote from Andy Collins.  You'll definitely want to at least give 4e a glance.  It sounds like your thoughts and theirs are pretty close.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> That, coupled with the earlier "One Setting Book a Year" might actually mean we get a Greyhawk setting book...




I sat in on the first 30 minutes of the next seminar (which was based on Eberron), and Keith Baker was ADAMANT that there would be more Eberron support than EVER before during 4e because the "constraints" of a paper magazine were being lifted by moving to the D&D Insider format.  He said you could expect a significant amount of "official" updates through the websites, and that they would be consistent and regular ongoing articles.  They definitely implied that this would be true for all the major D&D worlds.  

They also directly implied there would be NO Eberron races in the core PH.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

Mortellan said:
			
		

> Living Greyhawk – will be coming to a triumphant close next year, and they will be starting fresh with a new batch of characters and players. This will be discussed tonight or tomorrow
> 
> Whoa. Starting fresh...with new PLAYERS? This tells me LG is done done or am I confused?




Done, done.  

They want to hit the "reset" button on all the "Living" campaigns.  They are integrating all this stuff, MUCH MORE DIRECTLY into the play experience of 4e.  I believe that Organized Play will be tied directly to characters that are built and updated online through the DI, and that Living campaigns will be much more easily "portable" that way.  I also have a feeling they will expand the "LIVING" format to include more organized play, and possibly push the organized play right into the living rooms (not just gaming stores) of 4e D&D players.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> Given the focus on "we found upgrading didn't work well before" POV, I imagine they want to avoid all that nastiness and are just going to wrap things up and start over.




This is almost a direct quote from Rich Baker.  He referred to the 3rd Edition "conversion guide" as an unfufilled promise.  They said that was a mistake they would not make again.

They laughed about putting out "Exemplars of Evil" and "Ancient Ones" which is essentially a book of the biggest, baddest nasties (all Tarrasques) right before 4e came out.  From Bill,  "Really! We're NOT giving your DM all the tools they'll need to wipe your 3rd Edition characters out right before 4e comes out.  We SWEAR it!" (said with great sarcasm, then followed by a wickedly evil grin)


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

wagnert said:
			
		

> But August 2007 is the last issue of both Dungeon and Dragon magazines?
> 
> Are they now going to take them back in house after spinning Paizo out originally to publish them?




Both Dungeon Magazine and Dragon Magazine will be a direct part of the DI component of 4e.  There will be new releases three times per week on the DI, every week.


----------



## Alisair Longreach (Aug 18, 2007)

For those who might intereseted, I found a 4E seminar summary over at the Gleemax forum.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13457928#post13457928


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> ashockney, I'm in the rightmost chair of the second row.  If your are at the 6PM seminar and see this please see me. You're better at news article posting than I am, I'd rather work with you on getting notes on on the 6 PM OGL / 4e seminar in line please




Michael, sorry I missed you.  I wasn't kidding in my earlier post when I said I literally drove over from Columbus to find out about 4e.  I left on Friday at 7am, arrived at 10am.  Did the dealer room/lunch until 2pm.  Did this seminar until 4pm.  Dinner with friends, drove home.  

The baton is officially passed!


----------



## Mortellan (Aug 18, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> Done, done.
> 
> They want to hit the "reset" button on all the "Living" campaigns.  They are integrating all this stuff, MUCH MORE DIRECTLY into the play experience of 4e.  I believe that Organized Play will be tied directly to characters that are built and updated online through the DI, and that Living campaigns will be much more easily "portable" that way.  I also have a feeling they will expand the "LIVING" format to include more organized play, and possibly push the organized play right into the living rooms (not just gaming stores) of 4e D&D players.



 Sounds all spiffy and everything. It should make book keeping easier for the Living campaigns but I'm still skeptical as it smacks of MMORPG's. Namely won't anything updated through the DI will cost you money and be property of Wizards to reuse? AFAIK living greyhawk never cost anyone a dime to play before, I bet that changes.

btw, I don't play Living-anything. Just a concerned Greyfan.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

green slime said:
			
		

> I'd have prepped a page of handwritten text with the neccessary details, and winged the rest. I find it hard to see how a new edition is going to remove the monster prep.




From a development standpoint, they're indicating to us that they have "simplified" the monsters so that they all play certain "roles" in an encounter.  Further, they will fully flesh out and detail everything you need to know to run the encounter in one place, using their new format, that will keep these details to one (or two) open pages.  Further, everything will be "pre-supported" through the DI, for example you can use their digital tabletop, and have the ACTUAL maps right from the encounters/books/Dungeon Magazine, built right into the program.  Zero map prep-work for the DM.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> The 2008 PHB thread has some information from the Israeli distributor of what books to look for in 2008. Arcane magic, melee combat, dragons and some other stuff all get books. Unless gnomes will be in the arcane magic splatbook, reappearing in "an early supplement" might mean 2009.
> 
> Honestly, I hope that whatever PHB races they axe shows up, in at least draft form for 10 levels or so, on D&D Insider.




The design guys were adamant that between the initial release books and the D&D Insider, none of the "standards" would be missed.  If you've played 3rd Edition xyz race + ABC character, you'll be able to do it in 4e quickly, just not necessarily in April/May.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

Talgian said:
			
		

> Is this right? I thought all the other information, like the videos and the stuff at Wizards indicates that Collins, Cordell, and Heinsoo are the leads, and Mearls is under them.




I sat next to Chris T in the back, and he leaned over my shoulder and confirmed that the lead developers were Collins, Cordell and Heinsoo.  I know where Michael was coming from with this line, because sitting in the audience, it certainly seemed like Mike M had a lot to say on most of the questions from Q&A.  He's obviously been very involved in the development.


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

The Mirrorball Man said:
			
		

> "Before he draws his sword, the evil Drow overlord tells you joke #54".




Crap!  That's a DC34 Will save!!!!!!!!!

Failed, ok, I laugh. 

Then...

I slice his head off!


----------



## ashockney (Aug 18, 2007)

Alisair Longreach said:
			
		

> For those who might intereseted, I found a 4E seminar summary over at the Gleemax forum.
> 
> http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13457928#post13457928




That IS an excellent summary.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Aug 18, 2007)

ashockney said:
			
		

> I believe that Organized Play will be tied directly to characters that are built and updated online through the DI, and that Living campaigns will be much more easily "portable" that way.  I also have a feeling they will expand the "LIVING" format to include more organized play, and possibly push the organized play right into the living rooms (not just gaming stores) of 4e D&D players.



But you can play Living Greyhawk at home right now. You can play it online with friends from all over the place.

And online organization of character rewards, to me as a player, is an utter failure in the D&D Campaigns like Xendrik Expeditions and Mark of Heroes. That kind of character herding cannot work for a living campaign. What am I to do when the network is down, or the servers are getting maintenance?


----------

