# The Lords of the Nine Hells



## BOZ (Feb 6, 2007)

OK, I need to straighten out the history of these guys, so that I can better understand them.  In fact, it will probably help everybody else to get this figured out as well.  I would have probably done this _before_ FC2 came out, as I did with FC1, if I’d had any hint that the designers might have actually cared to browse ENWorld for clues as they wrote the book—which FC1’s designers did.    But, that’s no big deal; better late than never.

One of the major hurdles in understanding the Lords’ history is the fact that there have been three distinct versions of them as a group (a fact, to which Erik Mona has mentioned more than once that he was extremely glad to work on the demon book rather than the devil book).  However, I would view something like that as a challenge to overcome rather than avoid.  The first version, commonly known as the 1st edition version, is explained in the Monster Manual, Monster Manual II, Dragon #75, #76, and #91.  The second version, which was introduced and maintained in the Planescape setting, evolved in the Planes of Law boxed set, Dragon #223 and Faces of Evil: The Fiends.  The third version of the Lords of the Nine Hells came about as an attempt to reconcile the previous two versions, having been discussed in A Paladin in Hell, Guide to Hell, Book of Vile Darkness, and Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells.

I’m going to attempt to elaborate on the narrative that we have regarding these powerful archfiends as they now exist in this third version, while piecing together information taken from the first two.  If I’m missing anything, or if I’ve gotten anything plain wrong, please feel free to speak up so I can straighten matters out.  I’m providing references and page numbers so that all facts can be verified or clarified.

*The First Version of the Lords of Hell*
The concept of overlords who rule the devils and the Nine Hells was introduced by Gary Gygax in the 1977 version of the Monster Manual, pages 20-22.  We now knew about Asmodeus, who is the Overlord of all the Dukes of Hell, as well as Baalzebul, Dispater, and Geryon.  A few years later, in 1983’s Monster Manual II pages 45-49, Gygax describes the remaining 4 lords and a few other major nobles (including perennial favorite Glasya, daughter of Asmodeus and consort to Mammon).  Around the same time, Ed Greenwood went into great detail on the hellish hierarchy and numerous nobles in his two-part “The Nine Hells” article in Dragon #75 (p 16-33) and Dragon #76 (p 23-38).  In 1987’s Manual of the Planes (p 109-112), The Nine Hells is discussed as a plane as a whole, giving many details on the interactions between the various lords.

Thusly, we have:

1. Tiamat the Chromatic Dragon, lord of Avernus 
2. Dispater, lord of Dis 
3. Mammon, lord of Minauros 
4. Belial, lord of Phlegethos 
5. Geryon, lord of Stygia 
6. Moloch, lord of Malbolge, ruling as Grand Viceroy to Baalzebul 
7. Baalzebul, lord of Maladomini 
8. Mephistopheles, lord of Caina 
9. Asmodeus, lord of Nessus

Tiamat is a weird case, of course.  She is clearly identified as the ruler of the first plane of the Nine Hells when she first appears in the Monster Manual (p32) and in the list of layer rulers in MM2.  However, she was also always an odd fit, being that she’s a dragon rather than a devil.  However, note that in Dragon #75, Greenwood states “Avernus is nominally ruled by Tiamat … [who] holds Avernus through the support of Asmodeus, but her actual authority extends only as far as her physical reach.”  Manual of the Planes also seems to shy away from identifying her as the ruler of Avernus (although it does with each of the other rulers), stating “The watchdog of the Hells’ front parlor is Tiamat,” and “the fact that Asmodeus controls both ends of the Nine Hells (through Tiamat, who is underestimated by her devilish compatriots as a dumb beast), makes Asmodeus supreme in his portions of the Nine Hells.”

At first, in the Monster Manual, the politics of Hell are not really discussed at all, except to say that any duke would gladly take Asmodeus’ spot, a statement which is repeated in MM2.  Some more insight is given into the politics of Hell in MM2: “[Belial] is firmly in the camp of Baalzebul, hating Geryon nearly as much as does Moloch. Also, Belial must guard against the machinations of Mammon, so he does not have freedom to act.” “[Mammon] and Dispater are supposedly allies and jointly support Mephistopheles, but neither has ever failed to obey Asmodeus. It is also doubtful that Mammon places real trust in Dispater.” “[Mephistopheles’] main aim is to wrest the 7th plane from Baalzebul and, with the strength thus gained, challenge Asmodeus for the overlordship of all the hells.” “Great enmity exists between Moloch and Geryon. If it were not for Baalzebul. there would be open warfare between these two, much to Moloch's detriment and Mephistopheles' delight.”

These divisions are discussed more explicitly in the Manual of the Planes.  There it says that Tiamat and Geryon serve Asmodeus loyally, while the other lords are split into two camps that seek to dethrone him: Baalzebul has Moloch as his vassal, and has recruited Belial thanks to his rivalry with Geryon, while Mephistopheles has Dispater and Mammon on his side.

Ed Greenwood’s follow-up article in Dragon #91 (November 1984), “Nine Hells Revisited,” dealt mostly with several archdevils that had been exiled to Avernus for various reasons.  Mention is also made, on page 32, that the former ruler of the Sixth Layer of Hell, Beherit, was destroyed by Asmodeus for disobeying "restrictions upon the elevation of devils."

Note that in 1E, for the most part mention is not made of any history to the Hells, thus one is led to assume that the status quo has existed for such a long time that any changes that may have happened were so long ago that they are not remembered by most.

Not long after the printing of the Manual of the Planes, the AD&D game began to transition into the 2nd edition.  Mentions of the devils and their lords tapered off into nothingness for a few years, due to pressure that TSR was feeling from outside agencies.  Devils (and all fiends) were dropped entirely from the game until Monstrous Compendium 8 came about in 1991. This work explained that the creatures of the Nine Hells were called Baatezu and were ruled by a group of pit fiends called the Dark Eight, and even that a pit fiend named Bel leads the armies of Avernus. Any more powerful leaders than that were explained away as unknown quantities at best, “It is unknown if there are ‘baatezu lords’ that have absolute rulership in the Nine Hells,” leaving pit fiends as the uppermost baatezu.

*The Second Version of the Lords of Hell*
When the Planescape Campaign Setting arrived in 1994, the “Lords of the Nine” were reintroduced, but primarily left as a mystery: page 52 of A DM’s Guide to the Planes identifies that Bel serves Avernus’ archduke, and while it acknowledges the existence of an archduke for each layer, none are named.  The first Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix acknowledges the Dark Eight as well, but no longer claims that they rule the baatezu alone (p16).  

1995’s Planes of Law boxed set expands a bit more on the Lords while leaving them quite mysterious.  Pages 12-13 of the Baator booklet identifies that the lord of Avernus has delegated much of his power to Bel (also mentioned later on p16), while the lord of Minauros may be named after his layer, the lord of Stygia is Prince Levistus (mentioned on p20), and the Lord of the Eighth (now called Cania) is Baron Molikroth (mentioned again on p25).  The only named lord resembling the original version is Dispater (mentioned also on p17, and also plays a major role in the module Fires of Dis), while the others appear completely different or unknown.  This leaves it unclear as to whether these newer lords replaced the older ones, or if the new mythology is writing the other lords out of existence.

Colin McComb’s article in the Nov 1995 issue of Dragon #223 entitled “The Lords of the Nine” (page 11-18) finally identifies each of the lords by name and provides details on each.  Warlord Bel is actually the current archduke of Avernus after all, having trapped the previous ruler and siphoning off her energy.  The Viscount of Minauros is indeed named Minauros the Serpent, the lady of Phlegethos is named Fierana, the ruler of Malbolge is Malagard the Hag Countess, Triel the Fallen archon rules Maladomini, and the ruler of Nessus is known only as the Dark Lord.  

In 1996’s boxed set Hellbound: The Blood War, in The Dark of the War booklet page 20, their role in the Blood War is detailed.  In fact, when compared to the Dark Eight, the Lords of the Nine barely play a part in the Blood War, because they leave that job up to the Dark Eight.  Importantly, for the first time in Planescape, the possible existence of an infernal court of nobles between the Dark Eight and Lords of the Nine in stature is suggested.  In 1997’s Faces of Evil: The Fiends (pages 29-32), this concept is elaborated on, assigning baatezu nobles to each of the lords.  Perhaps (not so) oddly enough, most of these nobles (such as Titivilus, Glasya, and Hutijin) correspond to the lords of the same layers for which they operated back in the 1st edition; this is probably the most tangible link between the 1st and 2nd edition lords besides the use of Dispater in both.

The untimely end of the Planescape line in 1998 marked a shift in the fates of the Lords of the Nine.  While many fans of Planescape preferred its version of the Lords, many 1st edition fans (or even Planescape fans who preferred the original lords) did not, and clamored for a return of the originals.

*The Third Version of the Lords of Hell*
What became essentially another version of the Lords of the Hells arose from reconciling the two previous versions that came before it into a cohesive whole.  Expect this section to be long, as these lords had never been covered as well before as they have in the last decade!

Monte Cook’s 1998 A Paladin in Hell was the first post-Planescape book to deal with the Lords of the Nine.  Page 28 gives what seems to be the first real look into the history of the Nine Hells.  The module gives an accounting of how Baalzebul’s and Mephistopheles’ factions sought to overthrow Asmodeus, building upon concepts from 1st edition.  The two sides held at a standoff for long, but eventually broke into war with each other.  Geryon pretended to side with Mephistopheles, but in the final battle he signaled to the pit fiend generals, whose ultimate loyalty was still to Asmodeus, to turn on their masters.  Asmodeus elevated the pit fiend generals of each army to become the Dark Eight, and inexplicably reinstated most of the Lords in their positions.  At this point, some of the archfiends began going by different names, while Belial placed his daughter in charge and ruled from the background.  The only Lord he did not restore was Moloch, who was cast down and replaced by Malagard (aka the Hag Countess).  For his own reasons, Asmodeus made no deal with the ever-loyal Geryon, giving Levistus dominion over Stygia instead, leaving Geryon ignored (Mammon took on a serpentine shape like Geryon’s as an insult).

All of these events took place in the “dim past”, “many, many years ago,” though how long ago is not specified.  Geryon’s status as a brooding, jealous devil played into Asmodeus plans in the module perfectly, as he offered support in his bid to retake Stygia in exchange for doing Asmodeus’ bidding once again.  Geryon’s supporters Amon and Cozbi (Cozbinaer) appear on pages 34-35, while Geryon’s role is described throughout the module after the history described on page 28 (at least, until page 59).  Page 58 mentions that Moloch is dead. 

1999’s Guide to Hell by Chris Pramas developed these concepts further, and at the time was the most detailed source on devils to date.  The book begins with a tale (p 2-3) of the two most powerful gods of Law, Jazirian and Asmodeus (then known as Ahriman), and how Asmodeus was weakened and fell to Baator and formed the devils.  Each layer is described from pages 28-36, giving some details on each of the lords, and confirming that Mammon had been Viscount Minauros, Baalzebul was a fallen archon also known as Triel, and Mephistopheles was Molikroth, and that Belial had ruled Phlegethos with his daughter Fierana.  Pages 37-49 go into great detail about the Reckoning, the Lords of the Nine, the Dark Eight, and various nobles of Hell.  

Pages 37-38 clarify Asmodeus’ role among the devils, and detail the events of the Reckoning of Hell that was meant to bring about his downfall.  “The early days of Hell” began “thousands of years of backstabbing and politicking that recast the landscape of Hell into its current form.”  As was already established, Mephistopheles’ faction consisted of Dispater, Mammon, and Geryon.  Baalzebul’s faction consisted of Moloch and Belial of course, and Zariel (the finally-named original ruler of Avernus), and his side struck first.  As described in A Paladin in Hell, Geryon was secretly loyal to Asmodeus and betrayed his faction and infiltrated both sides.  Bel (p39) rose up through the ranks to become a pit fiend, as a general for the Dark Eight. He served Zariel for centuries until he betrayed her, turning her court against her, and imprisoned her—which led to a relationship with Asmodeus through his vassal Martinet.  Mammon (p40) lost Glasya as his consort after the Reckoning, and has begun to plot with Mephistopheles and Dispater again. 

Levistus (p42-43) is finally given great detail, and he is an old lord indeed, possibly older than even Dispater.  Long before the Reckoning, he tried to force Asmodeus’ consort Bensozia to betray him, slaying her when she refused.  For this, Asmodeus imprisoned him in ice for millennia until he later inexplicably deposed Geryon and reinstated Levistus as lord of Stygia.  He is universally hated among the other lords.  The Hag Countess (p 43-44) was a prominent member of Moloch’s court (and probable lover), who set him up by encouraging him to join Baalzebul’s initiative during the Reckoning and secretly working with Geryon to trick Moloch into getting himself deposed.  As a fallen archon, Baalzebul (p44) was promoted immediately to a baatezu noble and was a favorite of Asmodeus before the Reckoning.  He overthrew the previous, now forgotten lord of the Seventh.  Baalzebul’s attempt to dethrone Asmodeus so offended him that when he reinstated Baalzebul he took away his handsome form and gave him that of a gigantic slug.  The baatezu nobility (p 46-47) are given a nod, with Asmodeus’ constable Martinet detailed, as well as Glasya in her new capacity as lord of the erinyes.  Asmodeus himself is discussed much on pages 49-51 (sorry, I was getting tired of reading so I skimmed!)

While the change from 1st edition to 2nd edition brought sweeping changes, the change from 2nd edition to 3rd edition brought practically nothing in the way of significant change, other than the fact that baatezu could again be called what they had been… devils.  2001’s Manual of the Planes discusses the Nine Hells of Baator on pages 115-123, and gives details about each lord.  The Lords of the Nine presented here are the same ones who were in place as of Guide to Hell, in sidebars at the bottom of each page.  Nothing much new is really said about them.  Moloch’s fate is left uncertain, but it was suggested that he is in hiding somewhere (p 121).  Mephistopheles staged a fake coup, placing “Molikroth” as his successor (p 122, not sure if I saw this in a previous source).

2003’s Book of Vile Darkness by Monte Cook marked the nine lords’ full emergence into 3rd edition on pages 143-168.  Each lord was given a cult and a few servants, though the original devil nobles are barely included (see Glasya and Martinet again on page 168).  Again, not much other new information is revealed about them in this book, but their reappearance here was necessary to cement their role in 3rd edition deviltry and all-around badassitude.  Although in Guide to Hell, Mammon was said to have been scheming with his old cohorts again, it is now said that they don’t trust him (p 149).  Page 151 disturbingly suggests that Belial and Fierana (now called Fierna) might engage in incestuous activities.  Mephistopheles (p 162) has developed a type of energy called hellfire which can damage even creatures with immunity to fire.

2006’s Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells is the most expansive book on devilkind.  The books opens (p 4-5) with a legend about how Asmodeus brokered a deal with the deities of Law to obtain the Nine Hells, and the right to harvest souls of lawful evil mortals.  With him, he took Dispater and Mephistopheles, and numerous fallen angels, and set up the Hells and the hierarchy of the devils as he pleased.

The book pretty much mentions the Lords of the Nine throughout, but I’ll try to hit up the parts more focused on them.  Pages 25-28 detail cults of each lord.  Chapter 2, “The Nine Hells,” on pages 33-76 goes into great detail on each layer of Hell and its lord, and mentions the nobles serving any given individual lord—yes, the same nobles who appeared way back in Monster Manual II, Dragon #75-76, and only mentioned since in Faces of Evil! (although few details are given on each noble, I’d like to eventually try to piece the story of each individual together…)  Moloch’s fate is finally confirmed (p 36), as he is now an Outcast Duke on Avernus.  (Geryon is listed in 2006’s Tome of Magic as a vestige, something completely different.)  Dispater (p 41) has been distancing himself from long-time allies and making peace overtures to old rivals, in hopes of becoming a friend to all and enemy to none.  The arrangement between Belial and Fierna (p 50) over rulership of Phlegethos has begun to show signs of strain; as she forms a relationship with Glasya, Fierna has begun to form her own network of devils independent of her father. Levistus (p55) feels he may be expendable, and seeks to make overtures towards Glasya to turn her against her father.  

Probably the biggest news of Fiendish Codex II was that Glasya has usurped control of Malbolge from the murdered Hag Countess (p 60-62) less than a year ago, under the approval of her father Asmodeus despite their turbulent history.  Asmodeus displaced an unnamed ally who had been with him since before the Pact Primeval was signed (p 65) to install Baalzebul as the lord of Maladomini.  Asmodeus (p 73) seeks to broker a deal with the demons that will turn the eternal warfare from law vs. chaos to evil vs. good that he may finally destroy the upper realms.

Pages 141-157 update the stats of the aspects of the Lords of the Nine from those given in the Book of Vile Darkness.




*My take on the Lords of the Nine*
OK, putting all of that together, while extremely time-consuming, made the whole deal seem a whole lot less complex than it did at first.

I’d like to get a rough chronology together of Hellish events.  Not so much “this took place 10,000 years ago, while this took place 5000 years ago,” but more like, “this happened a few thousand years before this, while this took place a few hundred years before this.”

So, it _seems_ that the original Lords of the Nine, in ancient history, were likely, in the following order:

1. Zariel, 2. Dispater, 3. Mammon, 4. Belial, 5. Levistus, 6. Beherit, 7. (Unknown), 8. Mephistopheles, and 9. Asmodeus.

My personal feeling is that at least part of the Pact Primeval story is true, in that Asmodeus, Dispater, and Mephistopheles were the first devils to inhabit the Hells and claim a layer.  As for the others mentioned above, they must have come around at some point not much later, likely “promoted” from Asmodeus’ ranks of fallen angels.

Baalzebul was likely the first lord to replace one of the Nine Lords (unless any other such replacements are simply lost to the ages in time immemorial), having taken out the layer’s previous, now forgotten lord.  Some time after that, Asmodeus destroyed Beherit, which allowed Baalzebul to place his vassal Moloch in charge of that layer.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Levistus lost his position after Baalzebul gained his, and this may have happened either before or after Moloch gained his.  I can’t see Geryon gaining his status before Baalzebul.  With the exception of Zariel (I need to come up with an explanation as to why Tiamat was assumed to be the planar ruler), that would make the setup which existed in 1st edition AD&D.

Then the Reckoning happened, which brought Levistus back, and put the Hag Countess in charge of Moloch’s layer, and brought about cosmetic changes in the other planes.  Zariel began sharing her power more and more with Bel, until a time came when he could usurp her control completely.  This brought about the Planescape version of the Lords of the Nine.  Things otherwise stayed the same after that, except that Glasya was finally able to replace the Hag Countess.

Here’s my explanation of why Tiamat was widely thought of as the ruler of Avernus.  First of all, she had Asmodeus support (not as ruler, just as having a firm alliance with the devils, something that most other gods don’t have).  Secondly, Zariel and Bel had their own little drama going on for a long time.  It’s likely that they did a lot of action behind the scenes and weren’t very visible.  Tiamat was plenty visible, however, and thus the obvious conclusion could be that she is the boss.  When Bel finally got Zariel out of the way, he was saddled with duties outside of Avernus that kept him quite busy.  Thus, a lot of people may still believe to this day that Tiamat rules Avernus—and in fact, she may exert more influence over it than Bel.  The fact that FC2 assigns Amduscias and Malphas back to Tiamat seems to support this.

Here is my hypothesis on Geryon.  I think Asmodeus let him become a vestige on purpose, not out of punishment or revenge or anything, but as a “reward” to a faithful servant, to become something new and powerful, so that he could study just what that something is and how he can benefit from it.  I don’t think his seeming abandonment of Geryon was a mistake at all.

Well, I can talk more later when my brain recharges, but in the meantime I'll see what other people have to say about what I've written so far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_of_the_Nine_Hells


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## the Jester (Feb 6, 2007)

WOW!!!

Very well read and written, going only to the 'official' sources.

Let me ask you this, though- if you were to include Lucifer or other Archdukes, where/how would you fit them in?  (Remember "the Politics of Hell" from waaaay back in the day in Dragon?)


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2007)

I'm probably rather avoid them altogether, as they unnecessarily complicate matters.


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## Alzrius (Feb 6, 2007)

You might also want to take a look at Gargauth (aka Gargoth) from "The Nine Hells Revisisted" in _Dragon_ #91, and in _Powers & Pantheons_. The former article mentions, IIRC, a previous Lord of the Nine (of the sixth, IIRC) named Beherit, whom Asmodeus personally destroyed for promoting devils outside of the normal channels. And of course, Gargauth himself is known as the Tenth Lord of the Nine.


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## Nightfall (Feb 6, 2007)

Maybe Gargauth is just another alias for Lucifer.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> You might also want to take a look at Gargauth (aka Gargoth) from "The Nine Hells Revisisted" in _Dragon_ #91, and in _Powers & Pantheons_. The former article mentions, IIRC, a previous Lord of the Nine (of the sixth, IIRC) named Beherit, whom Asmodeus personally destroyed for promoting devils outside of the normal channels. And of course, Gargauth himself is known as the Tenth Lord of the Nine.






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ed Greenwood’s follow-up article in Dragon #91 (November 1984), “Nine Hells Revisited,” dealt mostly with several archdevils that had been exiled to Avernus for various reasons.  Mention is also made, on page 32, that the former ruler of the Sixth Layer of Hell, Beherit, was destroyed by Asmodeus for disobeying "restrictions upon the elevation of devils."




i'll keep that in mind.   i kind of skimmed Dragon #91's article quickly when writing that huge summary, but i'll have a look at gargoth again later.


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## Erik Mona (Feb 6, 2007)

I stand by my statement about being glad I got to write about demons.

This continuity reminds me of The Legion of Super-Heroes, complete with the retcons (oh, the retcons!). 

--Erik


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## Ripzerai (Feb 6, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> While the change from 1st edition to 2nd edition brought sweeping changes, the change from 2nd edition to 3rd edition brought practically nothing in the way of significant change, other than the fact that baatezu could again be called what they had been… devils.




They were called devils in _A Paladin in Hell_ and _Guide to Hell_, too. The first use of the word "demon" after WotC bought the company was in _Tales From the Infinite Staircase_, and the word was used frequently in _Return of the Eight_ shortly thereafter.

The changes in the 3e _Manual of the Planes_ were as follows:

1. Fierana's name was changed to Fierna [p. 119]
2. The Hag Countess' personal name was dropped. Where previously (in _A Paladin in Hell_, page 28) she had been identified as a devil, the MotP specifically says she is not a devil, but a "supremely powerful night hag from Hades." This wasn't previously the case.
3. The business with Mephistopheles' phony coup was first introduced in the MotP [p. 122]. Before (in _A Guide to Hell_), Molikroth was merely an alias of his, not a disguise.
4. Mephistopheles' skin tone was changed from blue-black to red, and he was first introduced with flame rather than frost in the 3e MotP [p. 122].

I think these were quite substantial, changing the Hag Countess' species, Fierana's name, and Mephistopheles' schtick.

In the _Book of Vile Darkness_, Dispater is reimagined as a metal-themed devil (an attribute he didn't possess before, at least not so literally). Mammon is reimagined as a greed-themed devil (which makes sense, given his name, but wasn't part of his character in Planescape, _Guide to Hell_, or the _Manual of the Planes_. In Planescape his primary themes were his tricky way with words and power over disease; in _Guide to Hell_ his chief attributes were his untrustworthiness and love of the hunt.

Fierna is demoted in the _Book of Vile Darkness_; _Guide to Hell_ and the _Manual of the Planes_ had both made it clear that she and her father were co-rulers, while _Book of Vile Darkness_ says "Fierna has no interest in ruling, gaining power, or taking part of the complicated politics of hell. Instead, she is much more interested in taking advantage of her position and wealth to live an existance of comfort and pleasure. Thus, she is not at all resentful that her father actually does all the "work" and she simply says what he wants her to." [p. 152] Compare that to _Guide to Hell_: "It seems that Fierana is nothing but Belial's mouthpiece. According to the rumors current among the baatezu nobility, Lady Fierana takes little hand in the governance of her lands... As is common in Hell, this is a lie perpetuated by Fierana herself. Like her father, she is a cunning politician. She has found that these r umors lead other devils to underestimate her, and this has proved useful time and again. While she does indeed spend much of her time in pools of magma, she does so in the company of her father, and the two use this time to discuss politics and strategies." 

What could be more different? _Book of Vile Darkness_ says Fierna is a no-nothing ditz, while _Guide to Hell_ says she's a clever mistress of misdirection. 



> My personal feeling is that at least part of the Pact Primeval story is true, in that Asmodeus, Dispater, and Mephistopheles were the first devils to inhabit the Hells and claim a layer.  As for the others mentioned above, they must have come around at some point not much later, likely “promoted” from Asmodeus’ ranks of fallen angels.




I would agree that Asmodeus, Dispater, and Mephistopheles are likely the first ones in their respective layers. I think the others could have easily come much, much later, after countless replacements and new recruits. This is the view found in _On Hallowed Ground_ (page 51):

"It's no dark that the current lords aren't the same ones who came to mortal knowledge long ago. The noble baatezu serving below the original lords learned the politics of their masters well and eventually overthrew the domineering berks. No doubt they were overthrown by _their_ servants in turn. Fact is, this probably happened dozens of times over the eons."

Some of the story behind Beherit's fall is revealed in _Elminster of Hell_, although Beherit is called "Lucifer" there, his consort is still Batna and the basic story is still the same as it was in Dragon #91. Beherit and Batna decided to copulate and produce a child without the permission of Asmodeus as part of their scheme to overthrow him. Asmodeus was ten steps ahead of him and had him, Batna, and their son Lucifuge destroyed (by devouring them publically). Nergal and Baalzebul both desired rulership of Beherit's former layer, but the layer was awarded to Baalzebul. Nergal was exiled to Avernus in disgrace.

From Dragon #91, we know that Gargauth was Beherit's ally, and left the Hells shortly after that (possibly, it's hinted, after a failed attempt at overthrowing Asmodeus himself - though he seems to bear Asmodeus no ill will, and respects him the most of the remaining devils). What Gargauth's former position was is not revealed, though Dragon #28 said he (as Astaroth) was Hell's Treasurer. Since Dragon #28 isn't considered canon, though, it's possible he once ruled one of the nine layers. Perhaps he ruled the seventh before Triel?

The time lapse between the Reckoning and the present day is important. 

_A Paladin in Hell_ says it was "many, many, _many_ years later." [page 28]

_A Paladin in Hell_ says the end of the Reckoning marked the ascension of the Dark Eight (originally the Dark Nine). [page 28] They were the nine generals of the armies of the nine layers, and they turned on the rebellious archdevils at a critical moment. 

_Guide to Hell_ says "...their founder, Cantrum, was slain ages ago, the remaining members of the Dark Eight have remained the same as long as anyone can remember." 

_Faces of Evil: The Fiends_ says that the pit fiend Cantrum recruited the other pit fiends when he saw the necessity of further order in the ranks of the baatezu, although debate continues as to whether it was originally Cantrum's idea or if he was told to do this by the Lords of the Nine. _A Paladin in Hell_'s origin story implies the idea was Asmodeus', and the nine pit fiends were initially a secret order and only revealed themselves to the archdevils who thought they were their masters during the Reckoning.

_Hellbound: The Blood War_ says the Dark Eight acted in person to deal with the Rebellion of the Inferiors, a minor rebellion of lesser devils that turned out to be orchestrated by balor infiltrators. This event is the only one mentioned between the first discovery that mortal souls could be promoted into new fiendish shapes [The Dark of the War, page 14] and the opening of Ghoresh Chasm [The Dark of the War, page 15], a timespan that doubtless spans eons. Nonetheless, we can deduce that it happened either after or _during_ the Reckoning.

_Hellbound_ also says that the Dark Eight "have ruled their race for millennia" [The Dark of the War, page 18], so we know it's been at least that long since the Reckoning.

Dragon #223, page 14, says the warlord Bel imprisoned his predecessor "thousands of years ago." 



> Baalzebul was likely the first lord to replace one of the Nine Lords (unless any other such replacements are simply lost to the ages in time immemorial)




I think the latter is more likely.



> With the exception of Zariel (I need to come up with an explanation as to why Tiamat was assumed to be the planar ruler)




Misinformation on Zariel's part. The same reason Belial hides behind his daughter. Your idea that it was Asmodeus' idea, because of his better relationship with Tiamat, is a good one.



> Here is my hypothesis on Geryon.  I think Asmodeus let him become a vestige on purpose, not out of punishment or revenge or anything, but as a “reward” to a faithful servant, to become something new and powerful




I'd take _Tome of Magic_ and _Fiendish Codex II_ at their word that Asmodeus sought to make Geryon despair so that he would produce that much more energy when the Overlord killed him. He used that energy to empower Glasya to the status of full archdevil. That version isn't quite as exciting as yours, unfortunately.

My own elaborate, heretical theory was that Mammon found out about the Reckoning before it happened (being tipped off by one of the Dark Nine) and captured Geryon, disguising himself as him and blowing the horn to signal the Dark Nine's betrayal. Asmodeus predicted he would do this and did nothing to stop him, but he punished Mammon for his duplicity by cursing him with a mockery of Geryon's shape. He punished Geryon for being stupid enough to get captured by Mammon by removing him from power. And this is why Mammon's former allies no longer trust him [as described in the 3e _Manual of the Planes_).

But officially, I don't think there's anything to it other than what the two recent hardcovers say.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 6, 2007)

_A Guide to Hell_ made the Hag Countess' main schtick her attempt at gaining true divinity [page 44]. This was not mentioned in 3rd edition, but I wonder if her strange transformation in the _Fiendish Codex II_ was actually her own doing, some disastrous result of a failed apotheosis, and Glasya either corrupted the experiment or merely took advantage of a calamity that the Hag had only herself to blame for.

In 2nd edition, the Hag's name was Malagard (the same as Baalzebul's capital city). In the _Fiendish Codex II_, her name was changed to Malagarde, with an e, probably to help distinguish her from Baalzebul's capital city.


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## Echohawk (Feb 6, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> What could be more different? _Book of Vile Darkness_ says Fierna is a no-nothing ditz, while _Guide to Hell_ says she's a clever mistress of misdirection.



I don't see any conflict here at all. Might it not be useful to a clever mistress of misdirection to give the _impression_ of being a know-nothing ditz?


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## Henrix (Feb 6, 2007)

Great, Boz!


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## Ripzerai (Feb 6, 2007)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> I don't see any conflict here at all. Might it not be useful to a clever mistress of misdirection to give the _impression_ of being a know-nothing ditz?




It might, but the _Book of Vile Darkness_ reports it as fact, not misdirection, misleading an entire generation of gamers. A bit too clever for her own good, since it meant she was ignored or abused in many campaigns.


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## Voadam (Feb 6, 2007)

Tiamat seems the biggest unexplained issue, so looking at other sources on her might add some info. I know she's in the 1e MM and Manual of the Planes, but there is also the Babylonian Mythos in Deities and Demigods, 2e's Legends and Lore, Monster Mythology, probably the Draconomicon, and there is the FR god book with stuff on her, I forget whether it is Faiths and Avatars or Powers and Pantheons that has the Mulhorandi pantheon stuff.

In 3e I'd look at the FR god book, Deities and Demigods, and Draconomicon for more info on her.


----------



## victorysaber (Feb 6, 2007)

What would be the EL of fighting the Lords of the Nine together, given FC2 stats?


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## Shemeska (Feb 6, 2007)

Voadam said:
			
		

> Tiamat seems the biggest unexplained issue, so looking at other sources on her might add some info.




I'm not sure that it's an unexplained issue really. In-game, Tiamat was never a Lord of the 9, though some mortal sages might have mistaken her to have held that title and position. I could very easily see devils in the service of other noble Baatezu opposed to Zariel, and later Bel, spreading false information on the power structure of Avernus to stunt any efforts by the Lord of the 1st to develop mortal cults on the prime material. After all, if your potential targets falsely believe Tiamat to be lord of Avernus, you're going to have a devil of a time recruiting them to worship you, even if you could likely boot Tiamat out of Baator if push ever came to shove.

But mortals who held that belief might have honestly just misread the evidence. Tiamat is a diety yes, and she's on Avernus, and her deific domain is perched atop the portal to Dis. She has importance on that level, even if her relations with the Baatezu has been frosty at times. Still, she has fared much better as a deity on Avernus than Gruumsh and Maglubiyet fared (who were forcibly ejected from Baator into Acheron).

Out of game, the removal in 2e and 3.x of Tiamat from the role she briefly had in 1e clears up the extreme awkwardness of having someone who was both a true deity and also a non-baatezu being among the ranks of the archdevils.


----------



## Desdichado (Feb 6, 2007)

Wow, that's kinda interesting.  I didn't remember that 1e's Hell was so different.  I guess it's been a long time.

Although not official, I'd like to at least mention Chris Pramas (since he wrote officially on it in 2e) take on Hell in _Legions of Hell_ where Bel is Baal and is a unique devil, not a fancy pit fiend (a position I think makes a lot more sense), in place of Levistus we have Leviathan--the gigantic unique devil whale creature--and in place of Malagarde or Glasya either one we have Lilith, which has a Judeo-Christian folklore paternity that is unshakable.

My own preferred version of Hell is a combination of the _Fiendish Codex II_ version and this _Legions of Hell_ set-up.  Bel and Baal are alternate spellings of the same idea, and I prefer archdukes be unique devils, so I'd just change my Bel to Baal in appearance and name and otherwise use his stats (if ever needed) as is.  FC2 seems to strongly imply that Levistus being put back in charge was a distraction while Asmodeus worked on getting Glasya where she is today and that now he's worried that his usefulness is at an end.  This opens the door for Levistus being taken out of the picture and replaced by Leviathan.  Glasya and Lilith are similar enough in concept to assume I wouldn't worry about coopting Lilith--I might go so far as to consider it an alternate name for Glasya, although FC2 does mention a Lilith as a second consort of someone in one of the courts of the archdukes.  Can't remember where exactly.

That way, I get the best of both worlds, and I can actually make the "official" stance work in my campaign--just advance the timeline and introduce a few minor changes.  _Legions_ also posits Baalzubul and Belial as fallen celestials rather than baatezu per se, which I think is a cool idea, but not important at the end of the day.  After all, the Pact Primeval myth has _all_ of the devils as fallen celestials if you go back to ur-time.  I do like the idea that Baalzebul overcoming his slugform punishment too.  The idea of all these archdukes being publicly punished but left in charge of their layers strikes me as a bit bizarre, so I'd either remove the punishments or remove the archdukes depending on how I wanted it to go.

Anyway, sorry--I know the thread is about the official position, not what we do in our own campaigns.  I'll shut up now.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2007)

I've never been a big fan of Bel, either.   My personal taste is for the archfiends to be a bit more unique than just a slightly better pit fiend.   Besides, the devils change forms through ascending through the ranks, so why shouldn't a pit fiend change form when becoming an archdevil?

I was never fond of the Hag Countess, either, but FCII remedied that nicely.    

Now if FCIII will just oust Mydianchlarus and replace him with one of the other more unique altraloths (or return his predecessor to power)....


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 6, 2007)

J-Dawg said:
			
		

> Although not official, I'd like to at least mention Chris Pramas (since he wrote officially on it in 2e) take on Hell in _Legions of Hell_ where Bel is Baal and is a unique devil, not a fancy pit fiend




That's another change worth pointing out. In Planescape, in Dragon #223, Bel _was_ a unique fiend.

"Bel has only recently discovered how to create an avatar. The avatar takes the form of a burly humanoid with a jutting chin and powerful arms. The avatar's skin is slightly tinged with red, and his brooding scowl and the promise of rage held barely in check dissuades many from offending the representative of the Lord of the First." 

In other words, he had begun to evolve into a unique form and no longer looked like a pit fiend.

This was something that was ignored by Chris Pramas in _Guide to Hell_, and by all writers since then, so most people think "Bel is pit fiend of unusual power" and not "Bel is a former pit fiend who appears as a burly, red-skinned man."


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## Nightfall (Feb 7, 2007)

Erik,

Think then you could convince WotC to let you do Yugoloths too?


----------



## Erik Mona (Feb 7, 2007)

No.

--Erik


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 7, 2007)

Erik,

No you can't or no you don't want to?


----------



## BOZ (Feb 7, 2007)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I stand by my statement about being glad I got to write about demons.




i didn't think that would change, and it's better that you worked on something that you wanted to do rather than something you would consider a headache.  

still, it's not quite as complicated as it seems, it's just kind of like unravelling a ball of yarn - it takes time, but once you see where the strings go it's worth it.  OK, that's what you get with on-the-spot analogy.  



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> What could be more different?




i will fully, and absolutely admit that i wrote that gigantic missive in the space of 48 hours, when not working full-time, taking care of my family, and watching an ultimately disappointing football game.    did i read every page of every source as thoroughly as i would have liked?  no, and for no good reason i was in a hurry to get it done, so i did more skimming and skipping than i should have.

i know i can count on you to catch my omissions and errors, which is why i posted this and asked for help.  thanks!



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> I would agree that Asmodeus, Dispater, and Mephistopheles are likely the first ones in their respective layers. I think the others could have easily come much, much later, after countless replacements and new recruits. This is the view found in _On Hallowed Ground_ (page 51):
> 
> "It's no dark that the current lords aren't the same ones who came to mortal knowledge long ago. The noble baatezu serving below the original lords learned the politics of their masters well and eventually overthrew the domineering berks. No doubt they were overthrown by _their_ servants in turn. Fact is, this probably happened dozens of times over the eons."




having the others come much later as part of a series of replacements sounds fine.    especially those who, themselves, were later replaced.  i think the unnamed fellow who baalzebul replaced may have come along with the three oldest, since FC2 implies that he is similar in age to dispater and mephistopheles, if not older than them.  

Zariel, Mammon, Belial, Levistus, and Beherit would then have come along a few millennia after Baator was first settled (though not all at the same time) and stabilized their reigns for a good long time.  the next likely change would have been that Baalzebul came along and took the 7th layer from the one who held it all along.  i'd say Geryon next replaced Levistus, and then Moloch then replaced Beherit, and it stayed that way for a few more millenia before the Reckoning. 

if i'm off-base on that, or if it doesn't sound quite right, let me know.



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Some of the story behind Beherit's fall is revealed in _Elminster of Hell_, although Beherit is called "Lucifer" there, his consort is still Batna and the basic story is still the same as it was in Dragon #91. Beherit and Batna decided to copulate and produce a child without the permission of Asmodeus as part of their scheme to overthrow him. Asmodeus was ten steps ahead of him and had him, Batna, and their son Lucifuge destroyed (by devouring them publically). Nergal and Baalzebul both desired rulership of Beherit's former layer, but the layer was awarded to Baalzebul. Nergal was exiled to Avernus in disgrace.




thanks!  that's very useful background info.



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> From Dragon #91, we know that Gargauth was Beherit's ally, and left the Hells shortly after that (possibly, it's hinted, after a failed attempt at overthrowing Asmodeus himself - though he seems to bear Asmodeus no ill will, and respects him the most of the remaining devils). What Gargauth's former position was is not revealed, though Dragon #28 said he (as Astaroth) was Hell's Treasurer. Since Dragon #28 isn't considered canon, though, it's possible he once ruled one of the nine layers. Perhaps he ruled the seventh before Triel?




i'll defenitely have to reconsider Gargoth's importance in Baator's history.  it may be possible that he could have been the previous lord of the 7th, if we can assume (and oh, yes, we can), that everything written about the Hells has a good chance of being a lie.



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> The time lapse between the Reckoning and the present day is important.
> 
> _A Paladin in Hell_ says it was "many, many, _many_ years later." [page 28]
> 
> ...




so, the moral of the story is that the Reckoning happened millenia ago.    i don't think narrowing down specific dates or lengths of time is critical, but sequence of events defeinitely is.  



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Misinformation on Zariel's part. The same reason Belial hides behind his daughter. Your idea that it was Asmodeus' idea, because of his better relationship with Tiamat, is a good one.




given how complex the tangled webs are woven in the Hells, i'm going to go with "all of the above".  



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> I'd take _Tome of Magic_ and _Fiendish Codex II_ at their word that Asmodeus sought to make Geryon despair so that he would produce that much more energy when the Overlord killed him. He used that energy to empower Glasya to the status of full archdevil. That version isn't quite as exciting as yours, unfortunately.




fair enough. at the same time, my idea doesn't automatically negate that concept; revising it, we get "Asmodeus sought to make Geryon despair to produce enough energy to empower Glasya, at the same time his death transforms him into a vestige that Asmodeus may learn more about this unusual state of being."  yes, no, maybe so?  



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> My own elaborate, heretical theory was that Mammon found out about the Reckoning before it happened (being tipped off by one of the Dark Nine) and captured Geryon, disguising himself as him and blowing the horn to signal the Dark Nine's betrayal. Asmodeus predicted he would do this and did nothing to stop him, but he punished Mammon for his duplicity by cursing him with a mockery of Geryon's shape. He punished Geryon for being stupid enough to get captured by Mammon by removing him from power. And this is why Mammon's former allies no longer trust him [as described in the 3e _Manual of the Planes_).
> 
> But officially, I don't think there's anything to it other than what the two recent hardcovers say.




that's another way of looking at it, and not necessarily "wrong".



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Now if FCIII will just oust Mydianchlarus and replace him with one of the other more unique altraloths (or return his predecessor to power)....




wrong thread!  focus... 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Erik,
> 
> No you can't or no you don't want to?




or, no you've already tried and they're not listening?


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## Shemeska (Feb 7, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> thanks!  that's very useful background info.




Be careful when using material dealing with Baator that Greenwood wrote more recently, because he admittedly tends to use his own personal conception of Baator and not necessarily that which later authors developed over the editions following his Dragon magazine articles. For instance in 'Elminster in Hell' he presents Geryon as still holding a place within the heirarchy of Baator, officially commanding entire companies of troops, answering to Asmodeus in a normal capacity, etc rather than living in exile in Stygia. 

What he describes might mesh with previous material he's personally done, but it might not fit well with the bulk of the material elsewhere, just keep that in mind if you use material from there because contraditions may crop up versus mainstream sources. After Elminster in Hell came out, he and I had a little discussion over on Candlekeep about this in general.



> fair enough. at the same time, my idea doesn't automatically negate that concept; revising it, we get "Asmodeus sought to make Geryon despair to produce enough energy to empower Glasya, at the same time his death transforms him into a vestige that Asmodeus may learn more about this unusual state of being."  yes, no, maybe so?




I wouldn't consider a vestige a powerful or unusual state of being. A lot of vestiges are just formerly powerful beings who after their permenant death have their essence either scattered across the planes to the point of no longer being a distinct being anymore, or they're such beings whose essence was devoured and dispersed by their native plane but who still seek to salvage that original existance. It's not a position to envy, it's one to pity because they're shreds and scraps of a being still seeking to regain a status seperate from its plane, after being consumed by it. Geryon was devoured by Asmodeus, but a lot of his essence probably soaked into Baator in the process, and that spilt essence more or less caused Baator a case of gastric distress because it's not happily submitting to a permenant merger with the plane at large.


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## Ripzerai (Feb 7, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i will fully, and absolutely admit that i wrote that gigantic missive in the space of 48 hours, when not working full-time, taking care of my family, and watching an ultimately disappointing football game.




Whoa, I wasn't criticizing you! My question was rhetorical, not combative. I felt I needed a strong "finish" for my last paragraph, that's all.



> i think the unnamed fellow who baalzebul replaced may have come along with the three oldest, since FC2 implies that he is similar in age to dispater and mephistopheles, if not older than them.




Baalzebul may well have been older than them, but he was busy being older in the Seven Heavens. It could have been eons (the word is thrown around a lot, isn't it?) before he fell, so that the majority of his long existence was spent outside of Baator. Or, just as easily, he could have only been in existence in the Heavens for a short time before his fall. Mephistopheles may have had a different enemy for most of his tenure (perhaps Gargauth, although Dragon #91 indicates that Gargauth respects Mephistopheles, seeing him as a younger version of himself - which might indicate that Mephistopheles is much younger than the Fiendish Codex II myth implies).



> Zariel, Mammon, Belial, Levistus, and Beherit would then have come along a few millennia after Baator was first settled (though not all at the same time) and stabilized their reigns for a good long time.  the next likely change would have been that Baalzebul came along and took the 7th layer from the one who held it all along.  i'd say Geryon next replaced Levistus, and then Moloch then replaced Beherit, and it stayed that way for a few more millenia before the Reckoning.
> 
> if i'm off-base on that, or if it doesn't sound quite right, let me know.




It's all arbitrary, and it depends on how long you think the total history of the baatezu in the Nine Hells is. I'd start out at a million years, because the tanar'ri lord Turaglas was born "a thousand times a thousand years ago" according to the October 2003 issue Dragon Magazine.


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## Ripzerai (Feb 7, 2007)

*This is my version of their history*

*Ancient Lords of Baator *

The following should be considered speculative rather than definitive. It's disappointing when mysteries are solved and explained, but it's fun to theorize about them.

*The Law-Tainted*

Everyone's darkest suspicions are true: the earliest of Baator's lords were yugoloths. They were among the Tainted Ones who fled the Heart of Darkness.

How exactly the yugoloth race infected themselves with the taint of alien concepts is unclear; it is almost certain they did it deliberately. There came a time, however, that the General of their race determined that the unclean elements had incubated themselves within yugoloth flesh long enough, and it was time to purge them and see what new creations could be made from what they had hosted. 

In the beginning, the number of law-tainted yugoloth rulers was nine, three groups of three. The number of layers Baator would ultimately divide into was decided by them.

If they ever had names, they were abandoned in order to prevent the General from tracking them down, or using their names to use the Heart on their spirits from afar. Because they had no names, they called themselves after the nature of their contaminations.

Taint of Blood
Taint of Darkness
Taint of Fire

Taint of Oblivion
Taint of Stone
Taint of Ruin

Taint of Iron
Taint of Chill
Taint of Mire

Taint of Blood was in many ways the lowliest of the nine. The taint this yugoloth suffered was not just of law, but of mortality. His presence caused other immortals to age and die, while he himself grew progressively more withered over the centuries. The others held him in contempt, an impurity among impurities, believing it was only a matter of time before this gaunt, almost skeletal creature died as a mortal would.

If Taint of Blood was the lowest, Taint of Darkness was considered by all to be the mightiest. Its power was learned in the depths of the Three Glooms and in the darkest realms of Mungoth. It had the power to blind and distort the divinations of its opponents, and it was through the Taint of Darkness that the others made their escape. So it was that all bound themselves in fealty to Darkness' Taint.

Taint of Oblivion had the power to erase and manipulate memory. It claimed to be the creator, or one of the creators, of the River Styx. It was this yugoloth who stripped its fellows of their names. 

Taint of Stone could raise or shatter mountains. It helped in the actual construction of the plane. Its sibling, Taint of Iron, created the first cities for the exiled Law-Tainted to dwell in with their experiments and slaves. Taint of Iron's rival was Taint of Ruin, who created balance in the plane by making desolation and waste wherever Taint of Iron had grown too ambitious. The chief ally of Taint of Ruin was Taint of Mire, who preferred swampy bogs in which to perform her experiments on aberrations and many-legged things.

Taint of Fire, who had apprenticed in the shaping of Gehenna, ignited the furnaces of infernal flame, while its rival Taint of Chill created landscapes of snow, ice, and ash. 

It is believed that all nine of the Law-Tainted were killed by the generation that would succeed them. However, there are no records dating from this ancient beyond ancient time. It could be that all nine are still alive, manipulating the history of Baator from behind the scenes...

*The Elder Baatorians*

The Elders were not individuals. They were assemblages, collections of primal concepts drawn from the substance of the plane. They had no names. They were, in fact, older than words or light. They would not incorporate these concepts until much later, when it was far too late.

They can, however, be identified somewhat by their functions.

The Corrector of Errors 
The Enslaver of Alien Elements
The Answerer of Questions

The Unveiler of Deceptions
The Eraser of Mistakes
The Deceiver of Enemies

The Builder of Habitations
The Preserver of Trophies
The Manipulator of Lesser Forms

*The First Baatezu Lords*

The origin of the baatezu is not known for certain. Of course, the yugoloths claim that it was they who engineered the first of that race, though they are reluctant to mention the Law-Tainted. Baatezu myths say they were created by the Lord of the Ninth to aid him in dividing the multiverse under his control. In the library of Demogorgon is a variation of the World Serpent myth that identifies the Lord of the Ninth as one of the aspects of that complex archetypal being. Certain myths even claim the baatezu descend from fallen archons or other celestial beings.

What is known is that the Elder Baatorians ruled the plane for eons uncounting, until a new variation of evil law - the baatezu - fulfilled its function by conquering and subjugating its predecessor. Since then the baatezu have been the unquestioned rulers of the Nine Hells, though it may be that they will not be the last aspect of Order to be able to make that claim.

The following are some of the oldest names - or sometimes only titles - we could uncover, but these are perhaps not truly the oldest.

There were nine. 

Mastema of the Torments, the Black Scourge,.
The iron charioteer known as the Donn.
Ssillegmik the Absorber.
Pyrishatar the Dancer.
Tannivar of the Grim Book.
Kafkefoni the Earthsinger.
Sammaaoth, the Lie of Beauty
Qol'Malshalgi, Voice of the Hellfrost
Atar the Accursed, Lord of Light

These nine were made not only to lead their inferiors (who were also winged, though of more humanoid form) in battle against the ancient natives, but to transform the nine layers in accordance with their will - even to become the layers, in a sense. This they did, and as a consequence none of them can be killed until the layers they are associated with are also destroyed.

Despite this, only two of them are still active in the affairs of the multiverse, and only one still rules.

Mastema of the Torments was cut into pieces by fiends from the Abyss. Its blood runs in rivers. Its spine and ribs have grown cities.

The Iron Charioteer no longer remembers his nature, having been bound into a humanoid form by an ancient haglike creature. He calls himself Dispater, and this is the only identity he knows.

Ssillegmik has become one with the swamps. It continues to devour all things on its layer, sucking down even the capitol Minauros.

Pyrishatar the Dancer was seduced by Belial. Some say she was bound in the heart of the volcano the city of Abryimis was built around; some say she lives still, entranced, as a member of Belial's harem.

Tannivar's library was destroyed, covered in flood waters and forever forgotten. Tannivar lingered on, bent and sorrowful of his loss, until he was devoured by Levistus. Apparently he remains dormant in the innards of the frozen prince.

Kafkefoni used her voice to draw forth the stones of her realm to crush and destroy the cities of the Ancients. She continued to rule with fierceness and determination, but her fascination with the buried ruins of her foe prooved her undoing. She would call them up and try to learn from them, and eventually she unearthed something she couldn't handle. They say she remains underground, broken, in the posession of those she once defeated.

Sammaaoth, in his garden realm, collected beautiful things and corrupted them from within. Triel the Fallen became one of his pets, for a time.

Qol'Malshagi was stripped of his mind by the insectoid Rimmon. He became a mindless, undead bladestorm, full of ice and fury and signifying nothing. Eventually Mephistopheles would learn the secret of commanding it.

Atar pierced the darkness of the deepest layer with purest evil light, using illumination to cut Nessus into manageable chunks. With this light Atar ruled Nessus for millennia until Triel the Fallen made a deal with the asura Absalom, bringing forth endless flights of celestials in exchange for a legendary cache of stolen souls. Triel, calling himself Baalzebul, forced Atar to accept himself and Belial as co-rulers in a new triumvirate. After a time, Atar managed to gain sole control of his realm once again, but suddenly quit, leaving for parts unknown. In the ensuing conflict, an avatar of the Unholy itself, Asmodeus, gained the throne of all Baator, and thus it has remained. 

*The Emanations*
_It came to pass that the Unholy One desired to cleanse or disinfect the plane of its current inhabitants and introduce a new pathogen. To rewrite the plane.

The unholy created nine emanations of itself, long and serpentine with vast wings, to execute its will. _

Sargantanaeon, the Fiery One, Ruler of Avernus
Gagh Shekelah, the Smith, Ruler of Dis
Rhotomagaeon, the Concealer, Ruler of Minauros

Kafkefoni, Fiery Hinderer, now a mere concubine of Belial's
Tanniver, the Blind Dragon, Gray Guardian of the Book of the Fifth
Tagariraeon, the Haggler, Ruler of Malbolge

Sammaeon, Guardian of the Garden of the Seventh
Nuraeon, the Wind of Hellfrost in the Eighth
Ataraeon, Lord of Light in the Ninth

Chashek, the Lord of Darkness

*Procession of the Hierarchs*
In the tumultuous early days before the coming of the Unifier, many layers changed hands.

Sargantanas, Lord of Avernus
Dispater, Lord of Dis
Amaimon, Lord of Minauros

Kakfkefoni, Lady of Phlegethos
Levistus, Lord of Stygia
Ronwe, Lady of Malbolge

Sammaeon, Lord of Maladomini
Baalphegor, Lady of Cania
Atar, Bright Lord of Nessus

Melchiresha, the Unholy

*The Primordial Rebellion*
Myths say a third of the archons fell. A triumvirate is created in Hell. There is the beginning of a schism between those created as baatezu and the fallen archons and their followers.

Zariel, Lady of the First
Dispater, Lord of the Second
Amaimon, Lord of the Third

Levistus, Lord of the Fourth and Fifth
Beherit, Lord of the Sixth
Gargauth, Lord of Seventh and Eighth

Atar, Bright Lord of Nessus
Triel, Lord of the Flies in Nessus
Belial, Dark Lord of  Nessus

Melchiresha, the Unholy

*A Failed Coup*
The triumvirate doesn’t last long; a lord called Asmodeus takes control after only a few centuries. Beherit and Gargauth attempted to seize control of the Hells. In a possibly unrelated attack, Levistus attempted to steal control of Asmodeus' consort Bensozia. All were punished.

Zariel, Lady of the First
Dispater, Lord of the second
Mammon, Lord of the Third

Belial, Lord of the Fourth
Armaros, Lord of the Fifth
Nergal, Lord of the Sixth

Baalzebul, Lord of the Seventh
Rimmon, Lord of Cania
Asmodeus, Dark Lord of Nessus

*Interlude*
Politics as usual, stretching across eons. In a blow to the baatezu camp, Baalzebul drives Nergal out of Malbolge, replacing him with Baalzebul's own vassal Moloch. Mammon loses his seat to the deal-maker Azazel the Serpent, who renames himself Mammon. Mephistopheles storms down from Nessus to seize control of Cania. He proves himself to the baatezu camp by framing Armaros, the fallen archon ruler of the Fifth, for a crime he did not commit. Armaros is replaced with the baatezu noble Geryon.

Zariel, Lord of the First
Dispater, Lord of the Second
Mammon Minauros, Lord of the Third

Belial, Lord of the Fourth
Geryon, Lord of the Fifth
Moloch, Lord of the Sixth

Baalzebul, Lord of the Seventh
Mephistopheles, Lord of the Eighth
The Dark Lord of Nessus

*The Reckoning*
After Mephistopheles gained his throne, tension between him and Baalzebul grew greater and greater. The Hells firmly divided into two camps, and their cold war eventually flared into the Reckoning. Baator's political planescape changed again. Later on, Bel seized control of Avernus from his mistress Zariel and Baron Molikroth stages a coup in Cania.

Bel, Warlord of Avernus
Dispater, Archduke of Dis
Viscount Mammon of Minauros

Great Belial and Lady Fierana of Phlegethos
Levistus, Prince of Stygia
Malagard, Hag Countess of Malbolge

Triel, Slug Archduke of Maladomini
Molikroth, Baron of Cania
The Dark Lord of Nessus

*The Present*
This brings us to the present state of affairs, more or less. Molikroth has revealed himself to be Mephistopheles in disguise. Levistus has designs on his neighboring layers. The Hag Countess has been replaced by Glasya.

Bel, Warlord of Avernus
Dispater, Archduke of Dis
Viscount Mammon of Minauros

Great Belial and Lady Fierna of Phlegethos
Levistus, Prince of Stygia
Glasya, Archduchess of Malbolge

Baalzebul, Slug Archduke of Maladomini
Mephistopheles, Archduke of Cania
Asmodeus, the Dark Lord of Nessus


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## BOZ (Feb 7, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Whoa, I wasn't criticizing you! My question was rhetorical, not combative. I felt I needed a strong "finish" for my last paragraph, that's all.




i know.    i was criticizing myself though, for not having been more thorough and rushing the job.


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## BOZ (Feb 7, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Baalzebul may well have been older than them, but he was busy being older in the Seven Heavens. It could have been eons (the word is thrown around a lot, isn't it?) before he fell, so that the majority of his long existence was spent outside of Baator. Or, just as easily, he could have only been in existence in the Heavens for a short time before his fall. Mephistopheles may have had a different enemy for most of his tenure (perhaps Gargauth, although Dragon #91 indicates that Gargauth respects Mephistopheles, seeing him as a younger version of himself - which might indicate that Mephistopheles is much younger than the Fiendish Codex II myth implies).




i agree that baalzebul could easily be as old as any of the oldest devils (Asmodeus likely exluded).  however, the other devils (Asmodeus exluded again) probably don't respect that at all, looking only at his time in Baator which must have been a lot shorter than many of them.

mephistopheles may be younger than we think - or maybe gargauth is a lot older?  i picture asmodeus and gargauth both being unimaginably old, even when compared to dispater and mephistopheles.



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> It's all arbitrary, and it depends on how long you think the total history of the baatezu in the Nine Hells is. I'd start out at a million years, because the tanar'ri lord Turaglas was born "a thousand times a thousand years ago" according to the October 2003 issue Dragon Magazine.




yeah, it is mostly arbitrary, and likely to be defined differently in everyone's own home version of the multiverse.

what do you think the age of the Abyss is when compared to Baator though?  a million years is certainly a possibility.  and even if it were, i think it existed before Asmodeus got there, so he may or may not be younger than the plane, and he is almost certainly older than every other devil.


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## BOZ (Feb 7, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> The following should be considered speculative rather than definitive. It's disappointing when mysteries are solved and explained, but it's fun to theorize about them.




i absolutely agree.    it's also fun to take ideas presented as factual truths and say, "well, that's what they say about it, but these guys think differently..."


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## Shemeska (Feb 7, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i agree that baalzebul could easily be as old as any of the oldest devils (Asmodeus likely exluded).




As an archon originally, Baalzebul would have to have originated after the formation of life on the prime material and the migration of mortal souls into the outer planes, so we've got a limit on how old he could possibly be. The same limit applies to Bel, because having risen from the ranks of the orthodox Baatezu, he would have started out as a lemure and worked his way up from there. Again we know he can't be older than the advent of mortal life (unlike some beings who existed prior to that point).

FC:II presents a myth that would have some of the oldest of the Baatezu prior to their "fall" to Baator being potentially Aasimon of early deities of Law (which might make Baalzebul as old as any of them), or more likely once you strip the myth down to some core truth unburdened by latterday twists and additions, the first Baatezu might have started as servants of earlier beings of a primordial LN plane before (or at the cusp of when) the cardinal alignments began to sully and mix, forming the intervening planes.

We know that the Baatezu weren't the first denezins of Baator, and were preceeded by the Ancient Baatorians, and the timeline here as far as it will be relevant to the Baatezu entry into Baator, depends on if the formation of the Ancient Baatorians required the use of larvae or not. The Obyriths who were spawned at the same time and by the same beings, we know that they existed prior to larvae/mortal life, and so we might assume the same for the Ancient Baatorians now as well. Were it the other way around, this would put a limit on the age of the first Baatezu as well.



> what do you think the age of the Abyss is when compared to Baator though?  a million years is certainly a possibility.  and even if it were, i think it existed before Asmodeus got there, so he may or may not be younger than the plane, and he is almost certainly older than every other devil.




Baator certainly existed prior to the arrival of the Baatezu, and FC:II openly admits this, though it doesn't get into the history of the plane before the Baatezu (no good conquerer of a plane would need to go into the details previous to their reign).

Baator and the Abyss are the same age, roughly speaking. If we assume that the Abyss formed at the point of (or shortly before) the Obyrith migration and colonization of that plane then the Ancient Baatorians would have migrated during the same epoch into an earlier version of Baator, or the plane might have formed around them as a consequence of their exodus. The arrival of the Baatezu some time afterwards wouldn't have formed the plane, but it would have impacted the structure and metaphysical composition of it.


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## Ripzerai (Feb 7, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what do you think the age of the Abyss is when compared to Baator though?  a million years is certainly a possibility.  and even if it were, i think it existed before Asmodeus got there, so he may or may not be younger than the plane, and he is almost certainly older than every other devil.




We have just a few major events to think about:

# Law shaping the Outer Planes from Chaos. As described in one of the FCI myths, the Abyss was the waste product, the refuse left over from that event. This is described in a different way in _Guide to Hell_'s Twin Serpents myth, with Law symbolized by two cosmic snakes that shape the Great Ring from Chaos.

# Law becoming aware of Good and Evil. As described in the FCII parable, and also in the Guide to Hell parable, this seems to have been the beginning of the baatezu race, although Baator itself existed before this. Perhaps this means that Evil was aware of Law before Law was aware of Evil. The ancient Baatorians are the result of Evil (the baernaloths) using Law as a tool without the progenitors of Order (the Twin Serpents or the entities described as  Heironeous/Asmodeus/Moradin/Yondalla/St. Cuthbert in the FCII) knowing about it.

# So that gives us a third event. Evil using Law and Chaos as tools without the awareness of the latter two forces. This is possibly how the obyriths came into being, as well as the ancient Baatorians. 

# The fourth event is the creation of mortals. This coincided with the creation of the tanar'ri by the obyriths, and is the event (according to one myth) over which Law contended with itself and first became aware of evil. 

So, putting them in order:

1. Law and Chaos clash, and a primitive version of the Great Wheel is formed. Initially there is only Law, Chaos, Evil, Balance, and Good, and they do not blend or touch.

2. Evil exploits the bad feelings the forces of primal Chaos have over this event, creating the obyriths from the beings of pure Chaos. At about the same time, Baator is created, though the forces of Law do not yet know its significance. Presumedly, something similar happens on the Upper Planes. The number of Outer Planes increases to nine.

3. The obyriths begin warring against the primal beings of Law, ignoring the Ancient Baatorians (as everyone but the yugoloths seem to).

3. Mortal life develops to the point where its souls begin entering the Outer Planes. The obyriths transform mortal souls into the first tanar'ri. One of the beings of primal Law (Asmodeus) suggests that some of the souls that come to the plane of Law (later called Mechanus) should be set aside for punishment so that they do not disturb the contemplations of the other Lawful Beings. The Beings of Law also wish to help the Wind Dukes fight the war against the obyriths without getting their own hands dirty, so one of their number creates a race of servitors to do so. Eventually, as the punishments get more severe and the war against Chaos gets more brutal, this Being of Law descends to Baator and creates the baatezu from his warriors of Law. The other Beings of Law slowly become aware of the great evil that is being done in their names there. With knowledge of Evil comes knowledge of Good, and some of the Lawful Beings ascend to Celestia, which probably already exists in some form.

From this, I would gather that Baator and the Abyss are approximately equal in age, but the tanar'ri are somewhat older than the baatezu. However, the baatezu came into existence before the end of the Law-Chaos war on the Plains of Pesh, and in fact were probably among the major fighters alongside the Wind Dukes.


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## Ripzerai (Feb 7, 2007)

*Okay, this is how it seems to fit together*

Rereading Hellbound: The Blood War in light of the Fiendish Codices (revised in light of the new Dragon Magazine):

*The Draedens*

In the raw void at the beginning of the multiverse, the draedens - titanic, tentacles creatures - dwell alone in the emptiness. With the coming of the primal powers, the draedens make war.  Ultimately, they agree to a treaty, falling into hibernation to out-wait their enemies. The planes of existence form around them.

*The Beginning*

The planes are formed. A short time later, the progenitors of the various alignments stagger forth from the mists of creation: the baernaloths and their counterparts, the progenitors of Law, Chaos, Balance, and Good.

*The Flow of the Styx*

The River Styx is truly ancient, older than most of the lower planes it touches in the present day. Beginning as a mere trickle, it eventually becomes a torrent, and is deemed a Great Path.

*The birth of the demodands*

One (or perhaps three) of the baernaloths decides to create a race in defiance of its kin. The result is the demodand or gehreleth species, which is banished to the newly formed plane of Carceri.

*The Casting of Law and Chaos*

The yugoloths, creations of the other baernaloths, are infected with Chaos and Law. The General of Gehenna casts these alignments from the spirits of its people, creating lawful and chaotic larvae.

*The Growth of the Obyriths and Baatorians*

The larvae are herded into the newly formed planes of Baator and the Abyss, where they evolve into the million forms of obyriths and Baatorians. Most of these creatures cannot reproduce naturally. Yugoloth tomes claim that the 'loths retain control over these beings and their descendants and creations through a fallen celestial called the Maeldur Et Kavurik.

*The Disappearance of the Baernaloths*

The baernaloths withdraw from their positions of power over the yugoloths, vanishing into the Wastes. Some say they go mad, others say they simply become more subtle. Many seek them, but few have any success.

*The War Between Law and Chaos Begins*

A group of explorers - "angels" - dispatched by the lawful neutral forces of primordial Mechanus encounter the yugoloths (they seem to miss or ignore the ancient Baatorians, who have perhaps already evolved into beings of pure thought and disappeared into their plane, leaving only their blind, mewling young behind, and beings like formless shadows). They press on, and meet the obyriths. The innate philosophical hatred between the two races becomes violent hatred. The obyriths blame the forces of Law for the inhospitable nature of their plane, claiming that Law stole all that was good and fertile there when the planes were first forming. The beings of Law feel only disgust and revulsion toward the hideous, disordered obyriths, and slaughter as many as they can before returning to Mechanus to report on their findings.

Meanwhile, a group of obyriths explores the Inner Planes, coming into confrontation with a being of the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum called Sun Sing, who follows them back to the Abyss, infecting and twisting their portals. The most significant discovery, however, is a race of rigid Law called the vaati, or Wind Dukes, who rule over the genie races and control much of the elemental realms. The obyriths rend as many as they can.

In Mechanus, the beings of primal Order (the Twin Serpents, the One and Prime, the Cultivator, the Plotter, the Defender, and the Clockmaker) debate on what to do. One of the Serpents suggests they dispatch warriors to destroy the obyriths before they infect more of the planes, before they come to Mechanus to destroy them all. The others agree, and give most of the responsibility to the Serpent, who accepts it gladly. The others return to their austere contemplations of mathematics.

The Serpent of War, also called Aeshma, leaves its twin, the Serpent of Wisdom, behind and leads legions of winged servants to reinforce the position of the vaati. The Blood War begins.
*
The Yugoloths as Mercenaries*

After centuries of isolation, the yugoloths offer themselves to the warring sides as mercenaries. They bring contracts written on the skins of the dead, which are more binding to others than themselves. This marks the first time the yugoloths are involved in the Blood War, as well as the first time the yugoloths betray their employers.

*The Appearance of the Lords*

Some of the obyriths distinguish themselves above the others of their kind, becoming the first Lords of the Abyss. Some of them still exist: Obox-Ob, Pale Night, Ugudenk, Dagon, and Pazuzu. Many more are forgotten today: Veshvoriak, Vroth-Khun, Ubothar, Asima, Areex, Cabiri, and countless others.

Among the forces of Law, many generals of the war distinguish themselves similarly, including Darbos, Emoniel, Penader, Uriel, Icosiol, Dispater, Gargauth, and Qadeej, although they are not yet attached to a single Outer Plane. The greatest general of Law is Aeshma, who is now called Asmodeus.

The greatest leader among the obyriths becomes the Queen of Chaos, who cows or destroys most of her rivals under her banner. She also recruits many slaadi and other beings of Limbo.

*The Pattern of the War*

Initially, the balance of the war swings wildly between the forces of Chaos and those of Law. Whole sections of the Outer and Inner Planes fall under the control of one side or the other every few years, only to return to the control of the other side a few years later.

As the war progresses, the war swings less dramatically. Key developments put large parts of the multiverse under the thumb of one side or the other, seemingly permanently. At the same time, the numbers on both sides dwindle, as they do not have any quick method of reproduction.

*The Exploration of the Planes*

During this period, both sides explore the planes more thoroughly, invading and dominating many other regions.

The Queen of Chaos recruits beings of the Inner Planes such as Ogremoch, Bwimb, Cryonax, Sunnis, Imix, and Olhydra, and she incites the efreet to rebel against the djinn who act as faithful servants of the Wind Dukes.

The archomentals Yan-C-Bin, Chilimba, Ehkahk, Bristia Pel, Ben-Hadar, and Chan join the forces of Law. Chan quits when she discovers that Yan-C-Bin is involved. The vaati also gain some limited aid from the modrons.

Asmodeus petitions the other Primal Beings of Law. He reminds them that mortal souls have begun interfering with their contemplations, and offers to set up a place on the Plane of Baator to issue corrective measures. The other Beings agree, and the Pact Primeval is signed.

Baator becomes a place of horrific torments, the fine print in the contract allowing Asmodeus and his minions to gain great power from the suffering they inflict.

*The Intervention of the Celestials*

Some (but not all) of the Beings of Primal Law grow impatient with the growing evil of Asmodeus, believing him to have been almost as corrupt as the forces he opposes. They send an army of millions of archons and angelic beings to end the war themselves. Then something unprecedented happens: Asmodeus brokers a peace accord with the Queen of Chaos, and both armies turn on the celestial forces, annihilating them. Within a week, the celestials turn back. Only 3000 are said to survive.

In the future, the celestials decide to only battle their diametric opposites. The Lawful Good celestials fight only the creatures of the Abyss, and the Chaotic Good ones fight only the creatures of Baator. Because of this, the Queen of Chaos gains a tenuous alliance with the eladrin Queen of the Stars, whose people fight primarily on the Material Plane against the more corrupt forces of Law.

However, it is said that Asmodeus is gravely wounded during the conflict, his titanic body buried in the deepest pit of Baator, and that his wounds still bleed. Some say that from his blood the first pit fiends form.

*The Keepers of Knowledge*

Both sides give their members the task of recording information. The arcanaloths are said to write the only honest histories, seeing how they check and double-check each others' work. Unfortunately, their records, which begin during this period, are all but inaccessible in the Tower Arcane in Gehenna.

*The Deities*

It's only now that the feuding forces interact with the gods, though they've been around for what seems like forever. One or two gods of Chaos side with the obyriths, and the forces of Chaos seem almost unstoppable. Soon, powers across the planes choose sides.

But then, a powerful god of Chaos begins to wither away. The other deities feel their essences start to dwindle. They stop involving themselves in the War so blatantly, interfering only through their proxies. Of course, a number of gods of war and destruction continue to dirty their hands in the fighting.

The Great Mother cements an alliance with the Queen of Chaos, mating with obyriths and their creations to produce many-eyed fiendish offspring that are used in the battles.

*Assorted Treacheries*

Some of the most famous Blood War ploys are first devised during this period. The Mask of the Pit strategy involves obyriths disguising themselves as minions of Law, although this fails. One of the generals of Law - some say it was the pit fiend Bel, currently the Warlord of Avernus - executes his legendary Four-Cross, seeming to betray his own side, then the side of Chaos, then his own side, and finally betraying Chaos again.

The archomental of magma Chilimba, convinced that the archomentals of good were not prosecuting the war with sufficient zeal, murders Bristia Pel with the aid of Ehkahk. Horrified at the deeds of the side he was supporting, Ben Hadar defects to the side of Chaos.

*The Petitioners*

After millennia of bitter fighting, the two sides discover a use for the souls of the mortal dead. The obyriths create the manes and other subordinate races, transforming them into the first tanar'ri. The vast breeding pits of the sibriex obyriths writhe with nascent life, and every generation brings new innovation and depravity.

Asmodeus and his minions create the first lemures from the petitioners sent to Baator and the young of the ancient Baatorians. These are carefully promoted into higher castes as they merit it.

From this point on, the Material Plane becomes a crucial part of the War. The Wind Dukes secure many worlds for their baatezu allies, while the Queen of Chaos takes many others.

During this time the tanar'ri Turaglas is created, a "thousand times a thousand years ago."

The vaati, who - based in the Inner Planes - are unable to gain enough petitioners to create enough replacement warriors, continue to decline.

It was after this - how long only the arcanaloths know - that the Queen of Chaos takes the most powerful of the tanar'ri, Miska the Wolf-Spider, as her consort, destroying Obox-Ob and naming Miska the Prince of Demons in his place. This brilliant combination tips the conflict against Law.

*Sigil*

Somewhere around this time, the forces of Law and Chaos discover the City of Doors, which seems to be the perfect launch pad for their armies. The problem is that an entity known even then as the Lady of Pain seems to have some sort of problem with her city being used this way. Some say the Lady was a renegade obyrith high-up who fled to Sigil to protect herself against the rage of the Queen of Chaos. Others say she was a General of Law. She doesn't mind lesser beings in her city, and she tolerates greater ones, but if they step out of line she doesn't hesitate to destroy them. That doesn't stop the forces of Law and Chaos from invading the city time and time again, sacrificing thousands to her bladed shadow in an attempt to get closer to the secret of the Lady's power.

*Creation of the Black Abyss*

A group of unknown beings pledge themselves to the slaad lord Ygorl in an attempt to gain refuge from the tyranny of the Wind Dukes. With Ygorl's help, they create the demiplane that is later known as the Black Abyss.

*
The Field of Nettles*

90,000 square miles of wasteland between two tributaries of the River Styx, this becomes a major battlefield of the war. Rare is the year when piles of millions of bodies don't build up in the disease-strewn wastes.

*The Field of Pesh*

Eons of conflict finally shudder to a climax on the Material Plane world of Oerth, a place rich in magic and untapped possibilities. In the shadow of a great volcano called White Plume Mountain, Miska the Wolf-Spider fell in battle with the Wind Dukes and their allies. Miska is imprisoned in Agathion, the fourth layer of Pandemonium, by the Rod of Seven Parts. However, the vaati race is made virtually extinct by this battle and the long attrition that led up to it. It was a final, desperate use of all their remaining resources, and though it proved effective, the vaati are never again an important planar race. The few remaining vaati retreat to the Vale of Aaqa, dispatching only a few wanderers to ensure that Miska remains bound.

Back on the Plain of Infinite Portals, the obyrith alliance fractures, and the Queen of Chaos retreats to the Steaming Fen in the lower depths of the Abyss. Sensing weakness, the Queen's former allies turn on her. The Queen of Stars sends legions of ghaele knights to launch a devastating raid against the Plain of Infinite Portals. The obyriths and their demonic thralls die in the thousands. For this moment the treacherous tanar'ri, led in part by Demogorgon, explode in open revolt against their cruel masters.

This is the end of obyrith domination of the Abyss. From then on, the tanar'ri are the dominant race on that plane. With the collapse of both the obyrith-eladrin alliance and the vaati-baatezu alliance, the war between Law and Chaos awkwardly stalemates, its violence mostly limited to the Lower Planes. The archomentals and genies refuse to answer to either faction, although wars between chaotic and lawful elementals continue among themselves. The slaadi refuse to ally with the tanar'ri, and indeed many of them aided the eladrins in their purge of the obyriths. Many still kill baatezu out of habit, but only as independent agents. The modrons continue to fight in the Blood War, but no longer as allies of the baatezu.

Demons and devils continue to destroy each other in the Blood War, however, which is still a major source of conflict throughout the planes.

*The Exploitation of the Prime*

With the Wind Dukes out of the way, the baatezu exploit another loophole in their contract with the Primordial Beings of Law to tempt mortals into lawful evil so that they can legally torment them and use them as new recruits. The tanar'ri respond with their own breeds of tempters. Both groups teach mortals the magic to summon them and foster cults of mortals who worship them as gods. Half-fiends and eventually tieflings begin appearing in greater and greater numbers. Entire societies are manipulated like puppets.

Inspired in part by the celestials and no longer oppressed by the vaati, mortal champions begin to appear, fighting back against the encroachments of evil. Fiends begin to realize that mortals can be more than the mere insects they imagined them to be.

From this point on, the history of the Blood War is more exhaustively detailed, as mortals obsessively chronicle their interactions with the fiends and the secrets they learn from them. Although much of what they learn is lies, the sum total of their knowledge is a reasonably accurate picture of fiendish affairs.

*The War of Ripe Flesh*

The succubi of the Abyss war with one another for dominance. A few high-ups eventually establish themselves as lords of various parts of the plane.

*The Illithid Empire*

The illithid empire expands so far that the Blood War pauses for one of only three recorded times in all of history, the various Lords and generals worrying that the mind flayers will seize control of even the Outer Planes in their cold, premeditated conquest. The rebellion of Gith eventually puts those fears to rest, at least for now. The war resumes.

*The Reckoning*

In Baator the Lords rise against Asmodeus and his tyranny. Geryon blows his horn at a crucial moment, and the pit fiends known as the Dark Nine turn the nine armies against their ostensible masters. The rebellious Lords surrender. Several are banished or transformed by Asmodeus. The Dark Nine are put in charge of the bulk of the armies (and thus the Blood War), the rebellious lords permitted only enough troops to secure their individual layers.

Soon after, the founder of the Dark Nine, the pit fiend Cantrum, is assassinated. Reports vary as to whether his assassin was a paladin or an amnizu. The Dark Nine change their name to the Dark Eight, deciding not to replace Cantrum in honor of his memory.

*The Rebellion of the Inferiors*

After the Reckoning, the morale of the legions of Hell dips to an all-time low. Abishai disappear into the Gray Waste, spinagons fail to deliver their messages, and even the barbazu are reluctant to wade into combat.

The pressure erupts, and a town full of lesser baatezu gives over to chaos, lesser baatezu crushing the life from greater baatezu and holding others hostage. The Dark Eight intervene in person, asserting their authority for the first, and most crucial time. A number of balors appear too, cackling gleefully and revealing that they've orchestrated the whole revolt. When they attempt to command the baatezu they've so carefully infiltrated and corrupted over the years, however, the lesser baatezu look at the balors, and they look at the Dark Eight, and it turns out there was never any real choice for them. The balors are torn apart by those they hoped to command, and the authority of the Dark Eight is never again questioned by their legions.

*Malcanthet Becomes Queen of the Succubi*

After defeating her rivals, the Abyssal lord Malcanthet ascends to the Razor Throne, declaring herself monarch of all her kind. This was 2000 years ago.

*Summoning of the Keepers*

A member of the Fraternity of Order summons the race of Keepers from an alternate reality. 

*The Ascent of Bel*

The ancient pit fiend Bel stages a coup against the Lord of the First, Zariel, binding her beneath his fortress and slowly draining her of her power. By the decree of Asmodeus, he continues to be subordinate to the Dark Eight.

*The Maw Opens*

Ghoresh Chasm appears from nowhere in the heart of the Gray Waste. Within its depths, the spiraling lines of Chaos and the rigid lines of Law both appear. Who created the Chasm and what did it mean? The tanar'ri and baatezu wonder if within it lies the key to their own origins. Oracles say only a perfect combination of Law, Chaos, and Neutrality can glean the chasm's secrets.

*Peace and Treachery*

The Blood War pauses for a third time. The Dark Eight calls for a truce with the tanar'ri generals, and both sides agree to meet at the edge of Ghoresh Chasm. The celestials shudder in fear that the forces of Evil might unite against them, and the final war between Good and Evil might finally begin.

A balor sits in a pit fiend's chair and refuses to move. Carnage erupts. The debacle seems to end forever any chances of peace between the tanar'ri and baatezu, as the two sides trust one another even less than they did before.

*The Death of Orcus*

Orcus is killed by Kiaransalee over a long-forgotten grudge, his body cast into the Astral Plane and his wand locked away in Agathion. This deals a major blow to the tanar'ri, who had come to depend on Orcus' undead legions in the Blood War. Kiaransalee offers similar services, but others seek ways to restore the Prince of the Undead.

*The Ships of Chaos*

An alliance between the tanar'ri and the Doomguard results in the entropic, plane-shifting Ships of Chaos, created from living demons built into flying galleons and powered by millions of larvae. They have yet to be proven effective in battle, however.

*The Ascent of Mydianchlarus*

The ultroloth Mydianchlarus whispers a secret in the ear of Anthraxus the Decayed, the Oinoloth of Hades. Anthraxus leaves his throne unexpectedly, becoming a wanderer of the Lower Planes, searching for something he does not reveal. Mydianchlarus becomes the new Oinoloth. Anthraxus' Staff of the Lower Planes is lost.

Squaring the Circle

The yugoloths decide to reign in the other fiends. With the aid of the Maeldur Et Kravurik, they plan to strip the tanar'ri and baatezu of the teleportation power they inherited from the obyriths and the young of the ancient Baatorians. Meanwhile, a baatezu raid steals the Maeldur, not realizing its significance. The yugoloth plan teeters on the brink of failure.

The yugoloths manipulate a band of mortal heroes to steal the Maeldur back. They free it, destroying the power of tanar'ri and baatezu teleportation, but broken by countless eons of servitude it eventually returns to its yugoloth masters. The yugoloths, with the Maeldur once again their thrall, restore the teleportation ability of the other fiends, deciding to wait for the incident to be forgotten before they attempt to reassert control.

*Today*

Orcus has been resurrected, brought back to life by the faith of his priest Quah-Namog. Kiaransalee has retreated to a Prime world, and some Abyssal lords rejoice while Demogorgon and Graz'zt experience the attacks of a reinvigorated Prince of the Undead. Glasya, daughter of Asmodeus, has seized control of the layer of Malbolge.


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## Baron Opal (Feb 7, 2007)

Amazing. I only wish I could contribute in a meaningful way rather than copy / paste this for mutation for my homebrew.


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## BOZ (Feb 8, 2007)

man, that's a great composition, covers all the bases too.  

(you might find out that we did something a little different with the archomentals in a week or so, though.   hope you like it!)


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2007)

Incredible!

You might also add...

*The Dawn of Time*

Immense, godlike beings known as draedens appear in the pre-multiverse.

*Before the Beginning (or the Age Before The Age Before Ages)*

The draedens begin to fall into torpor, drifting dormant through the proto-matter that would become the planes.


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## victorysaber (Feb 9, 2007)

What are draedens?


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2007)

victorysaber said:
			
		

> What are draedens?




Draedens


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## Nightfall (Feb 10, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> or, no you've already tried and they're not listening?




Darn I forgot that one.  Too bad though, Erik doing Loths would be kind of sweet.


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## BOZ (Feb 16, 2007)

duh, totally forgot... need to look in The Apocalypse Stone and see how the info in there fits into what we've already established with the hierarchy.  no time for that at the present though.


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## JarlaxleArtemis (Feb 18, 2007)

Wow. This would be great stuff to add to the Baator article and other articles as well. For now, perhaps some external links to this page?


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## Piratecat (Feb 18, 2007)

This thread is superb.


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## Nightfall (Feb 18, 2007)

I agree PC. Deserves at least a 5 star rating.


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## Ripzerai (Feb 19, 2007)

In the timeline above, I added some stuff from the latest Dragon Magazine: demiplanes, archomentals, keepers, and Malcanthet.

Also, some draedens for Shade.

I wouldn't add it to Wikipedia, though; while it's all based on official materials, there's more than a little speculation on my part as to how it all fits together.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2007)

The Apocalypse Stone – Starring Moloch!

OK, I finally got around to looking it up.  This module by Jason Carl and Chris Pramas was from 2000, and therefore takes place after Guide to Hell came out and was one of the last products released before the debut of 3rd edition (not un-coincidentally). The part involving Moloch starts on page 47.  It begins by briefly recounting how he got into trouble into the first place, and that he plotted his return for centuries, by marshalling resources, winning allies, and preparing a surprise attack to take back Malbolge.  He went to a Material Plane world to hide and finish his plan, preparing to plane shift back to Baator to begin his invasion.  However, he had the misfortune of choosing the world on which the module takes place, which gets cut off from the Outer Planes during the course of the module, stranding him on that world and allowing his armies to walk into a slaughter at the hands of the Hag Countess’ forces.  Furious, and mad for revenge, he sets out to find and destroy those responsible for his situation – the PCs, of course.  Pages 48-54 detail Moloch’s machinations against the culprits, culminating in a deadly confrontation.  He does not appear in the rest of the module, since it’s assumed that when he confronts the PCs, either they kill him or he kills them.  

Even if he does kill the whole party, a DM might assume that he simply dies when that world ends.  However, WotC does not assume this, since he is identified as alive in more than one 3E product – after all, the option is there in the module to actually have the PCs save the world (though the designers clearly have more malicious havoc in mind than that contrived ending!), so there is that.  One must assume that, to place him properly in canon, he must have found a way to survive and return to Baator, where he was quickly returned to an outcast status on Avernus to plan his revenge anew.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Even if he does kill the whole party, a DM might assume that he simply dies when that world ends.  However, WotC does not assume this, since he is identified as alive in more than one 3E product – after all, the option is there in the module to actually have the PCs save the world (though the designers clearly have more malicious havoc in mind than that contrived ending!), so there is that.  One must assume that, to place him properly in canon, he must have found a way to survive and return to Baator, where he was quickly returned to an outcast status on Avernus to plan his revenge anew.




Thanks to the greater aspects of FCII, it's highly possible that it wasn't the "full" Moloch that was slain by the PCs.   Losing a greater aspect probably takes a bit of a toll on the fiend, I'd imagine.   If nothing else, it would be a matter of shame, I'd imagine.


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## rom90125 (Feb 19, 2007)

Outstanding thread guys!  Truly inspiring...

Thanks for taking the time to compile this info.


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## Shemeska (Feb 19, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> In the timeline above, I added some stuff from the latest Dragon Magazine: demiplanes, archomentals, keepers, and Malcanthet.
> 
> Also, some draedens for Shade.




For what it's worth, while my opinion on the inclusion of Draedens in 3.x material (and really much of anything directly from D&D as opposed to AD&D) is somewhat mixed to be certain, I included the demiplane of Draedenden in Dragon 353 anyway, since we already had the reference in FC:I, and because I suspect that it might make a few people grin.

And Rip, your take on my allusions I put into the writeup of the Black Abyss are interesting. I like that interpretation (and I don't actually have a single solidly intended version I was trying to overtly push there. I wanted to leave the implications and meaning intentionally vague to allow for multiple possibilities).


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## Ripzerai (Feb 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Thanks to the greater aspects of FCII, it's highly possible that it wasn't the "full" Moloch that was slain by the PCs.




It might well have been an aspect.

Even if was Moloch's true form, he would have eventually respawned in Baator, whether killed by the PCs or by the death of a world.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Also, some draedens for Shade.




Thanks!


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## hamishspence (Feb 19, 2007)

*Before the draedens?*

This I'm not entirely sure about: I'm conflating info from Dragon magazine's Far realm article (320?) and Epic's LeShay:

The Elder Elves, or LeShay, create the Great Gate, that opens access to the Far realm. The elves close it too late to prevent a Far Realm entity seeping into the world:

My guess as to what happens next: The Far Realm overwrites that universe, wiping out time and space as we know it. The LeShay preserve themselves by launching themselves forward in time. A new universe coalesces out of the chaos, and the LeShay reappear. This means that, since the Time of the previous universe has been erased, the Leshays universe has, metaphorically speaking, never existed, as Epic says. The survivors make their way as best they can.


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> *Creation of the Black Abyss*
> 
> A group of unknown beings pledge themselves to the slaad lord Ygorl in an attempt to gain refuge from the tyranny of the Wind Dukes. With Ygorl's help, they create the demiplane that is later known as the Black Abyss.




fascinating!  that's two references to the slaad lords in issue #353.  one might have hope for seeing more on them in the future?


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## Voadam (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm enjoying these threads a lot. Any chance for a similar thread on the divintites in Hell? Tiamat, Set, etc. and their relationship to devils?


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2007)

that's a bit much for me, but anyone else can feel free to have a go at it.


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## Voadam (Feb 20, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that's a bit much for me, but anyone else can feel free to have a go at it.



Heh, I didn't feel more up to it than thinking of sources to look up.

1e Monster Manual, Deities and Demigods, Manual of the Planes, World of Greyhawk Campaign Setting(?)
2e Legends and Lore, Monster Mythology, Planes of Law, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, Demihuman Deities(?) Forgotten Realms Adventures(?), Greyhawk Adventures(?)


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## Shemeska (Feb 20, 2007)

Voadam said:
			
		

> Heh, I didn't feel more up to it than thinking of sources to look up.
> 
> 1e Monster Manual, Deities and Demigods, Manual of the Planes, World of Greyhawk Campaign Setting(?)
> 2e Legends and Lore, Monster Mythology, Planes of Law, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, Demihuman Deities(?) Forgotten Realms Adventures(?), Greyhawk Adventures(?)




Add 2e 'On Hallowed Ground', 'Planes of Law', 'Hellbound: The Blood War', and 'Fires of Dis'.

And 3e has Fiendish Codex II and that's about it*

*3e D&DG doesn't count because it doesn't present any of its gods within the context of their presence in the D&D cosmology except for the greyhawk gods


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## Voadam (Feb 20, 2007)

Does the 3e MotP not have anything? I don't own it so I'm not familiar with it.

Oh and if you look above I did include Planes of Law, but thanks for the other references. 

Fiendish Codex II I'm just reading the beginning right now and some stuff on the devils I'm using, does it have more than the reference in the beginning to gods agents looking for souls (I think the reference was to an aspect of Hextor bargaining with a devil as an example)?


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## Voadam (Feb 20, 2007)

Oh and I should have put down Guide to Hell for 2e for Ahriman in hell with his close relationship to devils.


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## Baron Opal (Feb 20, 2007)

hamishspence said:
			
		

> This I'm not entirely sure about: I'm conflating info from Dragon magazine's Far realm article (320?) and Epic's LeShay:
> 
> The Elder Elves, or LeShay, create the Great Gate, that opens access to the Far realm. The elves close it too late to prevent a Far Realm entity seeping into the world:




Not only could that pre-date the draedens, the draedens could be the entities that came through the gate! That was may be why they resisted so strongly the primordial entities. They had just broken down the local reality to bite-sized bits, and _more_ entities show up to crash the party.


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## Shemeska (Feb 20, 2007)

hamishspence said:
			
		

> This I'm not entirely sure about: I'm conflating info from Dragon magazine's Far realm article (320?) and Epic's LeShay:




Elder Elves =! LeShay.

The elder elves (of Far Realms/'Gates of Firestorm Peak' fame) were as far as anyone knows, just an ancient race of elves on the prime material. And that's the important part there, that they created their accidental gate to the Far Realm on the Prime. That puts an age limit on that right there, because the Prime and anything native to it, are relative n00bs compared to the earliest forms of the Outer planes, inner planes, etc.

The LeShay, assuming that their claims are correct, would have been from an earlier iteration of the multiverse, or another multiverse entirely, or through an Ether Gap perhaps they came from a collapsed timeline folded back into the mainline chronology. We don't know given that there's so little about them. And even if they came from an earlier version of the Great Wheel, we don't know at what point they entered into the new version. Time is funky when you think about something "before" a starting point of time, but it's not necessarily solid footing to claim that the LeShay are "older" than certain things in the multiverse or not.


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## Nightfall (Feb 21, 2007)

*feels so much in love with this thread* Anything this evil HAS to be good.


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## Ripzerai (Apr 11, 2007)

From _Stormwrack_, page 157:

"Scyllans are descendants of the fabulous Scylla, an ancient fiendish sea monster (some say archdevil) with six snaky heads. Today, these lesser fiends primarily inhabit the frozen ocean of Stygia in the Nine Hells of Baator..."

What do you think, should Scylla be part of the history of the archdevils? Perhaps Levistus's predecessor?


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## the Jester (Apr 11, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> From _Stormwrack_, page 157:
> 
> "Scyllans are descendants of the fabulous Scylla, an ancient fiendish sea monster (some say archdevil) with six snaky heads. Today, these lesser fiends primarily inhabit the frozen ocean of Stygia in the Nine Hells of Baator..."
> 
> What do you think, should Scylla be part of the history of the archdevils? Perhaps Levistus's predecessor?




FC2 mentions scyllans as devils in the appendices.


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## Ripzerai (Apr 11, 2007)

the Jester said:
			
		

> FC2 mentions scyllans as devils in the appendices.




But what of their mother?

Edit: I notice that this is my 666th post!


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## Pramas (Apr 11, 2007)

Guide to Hell wasn't a big book, but it required way more research than its 64 pages would suggest. This thread shows you why and it doesn't even account for the many books on real world myths of devils and Hell I read while writing the book.


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## BOZ (Apr 11, 2007)

i can only imagine.


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## BOZ (Apr 11, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> From _Stormwrack_, page 157:
> 
> "Scyllans are descendants of the fabulous Scylla, an ancient fiendish sea monster (some say archdevil) with six snaky heads. Today, these lesser fiends primarily inhabit the frozen ocean of Stygia in the Nine Hells of Baator..."
> 
> What do you think, should Scylla be part of the history of the archdevils? Perhaps Levistus's predecessor?




it's certainly worth considering!

i also noted something as i have been slowly reading FC2.  Apparently, Asmodeus has permitted Glasya to poach servitors from among the other archdevils.  So far, she is only listed as having Tartach IIRC.  perhaps, if we still have any unaccounted for major devils, she might have grabbed some of them up (or at least extended invitations to them), possibly including some of the outcasts of Avernus (except those Asmodeus is keeping there for a specific reason, no doubt).


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## Shade (Apr 11, 2007)

Pramas said:
			
		

> Guide to Hell wasn't a big book, but it required way more research than its 64 pages would suggest. This thread shows you why and it doesn't even account for the many books on real world myths of devils and Hell I read while writing the book.




I can't even begin to imagine how much research that might have entailed, *without * the help of the internet community!


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## Ron (Apr 12, 2007)

Pramas said:
			
		

> Guide to Hell wasn't a big book, but it required way more research than its 64 pages would suggest. This thread shows you why and it doesn't even account for the many books on real world myths of devils and Hell I read while writing the book.




It was the best 2ed AD&D book I read -- not that I read many, I am afraid. I think your myth of origin for Asmodeus and the Nine Hells are definitely the most interesting I read. It is really a shame it has not being supported by further releases.


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## hamishspence (Apr 16, 2007)

*More LeShay*

it's just a hypothesis. But if their big mess-up involved the Far realm seeping into the multiverse, "rewriting" it and turning it into a duplicate of the Far realm, which eventualy breaks down again into Law vs Chaos and a new Great wheel cosmology, its not too far off the Epic description of the catastrophe the LeShay triggered.

I guess that bit about the Elder elves constructing the Gate on the material plane is from Firestorm Peak: I haven't read it.


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## James Grace (Jun 26, 2018)

Just a simple question, not judging, but how can you leave out the biblical lord of hell Lucifer (aka Baazlebul) ?


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