# Super SPOILER FILLED Serenity thread



## Dagger75 (Oct 1, 2005)

I was tired of dancing on egg shells in the other two threads and I can't find the spoiler filled thread from way back when so I made another one.
  This is a NO highlight or spoiler block thread, there will be spoilers here so you best stop reading if you haven't seen the movie.





Ready, if you are past this point its your own fault.......










Did everyone in the theater gasp when Wash died?  I was in packed theater for the sneak preview there were gasps then dead silence.  I was hoping the movie would rewind and show Wash ducking for cover.  It was hard watching the movie a second time knowing what was going to happen.  Rough stuff,  Joss may be a bastard but I loved it.

I think Book used to be and Operative of Parliment before he became a sheppard.

Spoil away


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## Truth Seeker (Oct 1, 2005)

*Wiping the tears away...*

-Playing the Opening Serenity theme song-


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Oct 1, 2005)

I jumped when Wash got hit. He and Book are probably my favorite characters...but despite seeing them both go down, I'm fine with it. Honestly, I'm glad Joss wasn't afraid to let some major characters die. 

Wash really stole every scene he was in, as usual. And Book. Well. Book's death scene was perfect. I can't really think of any other way to describe it.

And yes, I'm starting to think he was an operative for them. Or something similar.

Now I want more. I know that we've lost the pilot but...I want more! I always found River interesting, but after the last scene in the movie with her up as co-pilot, I require more.


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## WingOver (Oct 1, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> I think Book used to be and Operative of Parliment before he became a sheppard.




I agree.  If you go with that theory and view the Operative as a younger Book, it just rocks.  Was Book as ruthless as the Operative?  Is that why he refuses to discuss his past?  Will the Operative also find faith and take the same path as Book?

The Operative just rocked.  Cool, calm, smart and resourceful.  When Inara told Mal that he "couldn't handle this man" you could really believe it.  And when Mal was faster on the draw, and more devious than the Operative, it really added credibility to Mal's status as a hero.


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## Tauric (Oct 1, 2005)

I'm glad someone started one of these.

I was surprised and disappointed when Book died, but only about a 4/10, he was never one of my favorites.

When Wash died, I was stunned, and 9/10 disappointed.  Did not see that coming, and did not like it.

I was surprised when the rest of the crew survived.  After Wash, and the beating that Serenity took, I thought Joss was going for a "burn the house down while we're still in it" type ending, with few, if any, survivors.  

I was only hoping that Mal would get the recording out, even if he died in the process.  I was overjoyed that so many of them made it out.

Now, was it just me, or was Mal not just asking about the ship when he was talking to Zoe at the end?


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## WingOver (Oct 1, 2005)

Wash's death was unfortunate, but I really think it added a lot to the movie.  It was so abrupt, catching him in mid-sentence.  It just seemed so rude.  Damn you, Joss!  

Then Simon gets hit, and the Operative gets Mal.  I swear I was on the edge of my seat the whole last 30 minutes of that movie.  Awesome.


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## Truth Seeker (Oct 1, 2005)

A Encore showing I will be in, later today.


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## Warrior Poet (Oct 1, 2005)

The best film I've seen since _Return of the King_.

I loved this film, and was so glad it didn't treat the audience like idiots.  I loved the series, and this exceeded my expectations and made me feel a well of emotions.

I've loved Book and Wash ever since I first encountered them in the series, and it was hard for me to watch the shepherd die, and then awful to watch Wash die.  Then when everyone else started getting hit and going down, I began to think, like Tauric, that he was just gonna wipe 'em out and start a new set of stories.  I love that he was willing to do the right thing by the story, even if that meant killing off major characters, and not wimp out and tack on a Hollywood ending.

I thought the film was so tight from beginning to end, just really well put together, and despite the shocks, I loved it.  Just great.  Interesting that I can't wait to see it again, and I can wait to see it again.  Really did not like watching Book and Wash die.

Great dialogue, very faithful to the series, wonderful plot twists and storytelling, great visuals, a helluva ride.  Just awesome.

And Kaylee is mind-numbingly cute.  And Zoe's dress at the funeral was one of the most beautiful I've ever seen, and her in it likewise, and it made me sad to see her so beautiful for such a sad occasion, and also made me feel great about the writing.

Nice job, Mr. Whedon.

Enjoy the film, folks.  The good ones like that are rare in the machine.

I'm exhausted (just got home from the show, and it was preceeded by dinner and two fall-off-the-porch-iced-teas, so it's time to take my weary self to bed), so good night.

Warrior Poet


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## Greylock (Oct 1, 2005)

Tauric said:
			
		

> Now, was it just me, or was Mal not just asking about the ship when he was talking to Zoe at the end?




That was almost word-for-word the same scene as in the original series, when Mal and Zoe first toured Serenity together.

And it was a rocking way to end,  especially with Inara apparently digging Mal's "war-face".


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## Dagger75 (Oct 1, 2005)

Tauric said:
			
		

> Now, was it just me, or was Mal not just asking about the ship when he was talking to Zoe at the end?




I got the feeling that he was asking Zoe how she was also.


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## Darthjaye (Oct 1, 2005)

Wow,  so Jane has to live with what's happened........And by that I mean getting his Gol Durned butt beat twice by a 90 pound girl.


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## Darthjaye (Oct 1, 2005)

Also, it was nice how they finally introduced the Reavers...and in a big way.  Could the news of what the Alliance has done start another movement towards rebellion?


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## Captain Howdy (Oct 1, 2005)

I saw the movie at the very first showing in my town, noon. I had to work this evening, but I couldn't stand to wait another day!
I really enjoyed Serenity, really nothing was bad about it. Wash and Book are my two favorite characters, but seeing them die (while quite heart-wrenching) wasn't dissapointing at all. Someone had told that only two of the crew die, but I was still biting my nails during the last few minutes. Pretty intense stuff.
I am glad the movie explained the Reaver's history and focused on them a little. They were probably the most intriguing part of the TV series for me. Mostly because you never really saw them. All you saw was the crew's reactions when they talked about them. As soon as they landed on Miranda, I knew that planet was going to have something to do with the Reavers!
I think the only thing that bugged me about the movie was Mr. Universe... Not the character. No, the character was pretty cool and I generally liked him. I'm talking about the actor. It was one of those times that I was sitting there trying to think of where the hell I saw this actor before. It dawned on me as we were walking out of the theater. He played the main elf in The Santa Clause.   
It's always destracting when that happens to me while watching a movie.


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## stevelabny (Oct 1, 2005)

bout time someone started one of these spoiler threads...i've been waiting since may :-D

I just DON'T get anyone who has a problem with the deaths. If the scene made you cry... how many movies make you cry? If a movie makes you feel...it did its job.

Is the impact less if you didnt watch the show? Absolutely, but there is NO possible away around that. Is the movie still a great flick for firefly virgins? I think for them it would be good, not great. The emotions are what brings it to the next level.

But good is still better than every other movie disaster of 2005.

So many people are saying (myself included) that after Wash's death, they really thought this might be the end, that NOBODY was going to survive. How great a feeling is that? 
I haven't had that feeling at a movie since I was a little kid and too dumb to understand that main characters always survive.

This movie is near perfect. I can't wait to see the numbers it does (I wouldnt be surpsied at a sucky 10 mil or a nice big 40) and I cant wait for my friends to stop working nights so i can see their reactions.

We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.


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## Kobold Avenger (Oct 1, 2005)

I'm glad to see that it wrapped a few things up, like the whole thing about what went on with River and Simon.  At least that was the biggest mystery out of all 13 episodes of Firefly, though we still haven't got any answers about Book or Inara.

Yeah, the deaths were shocking but it at least it made the movie more of an event rather than a long episode.

And I got to say, it's a relief to actually see Simon and Kaylee getting together in the end, since I cringed everytime Simon blew Kaylee off through out the entire series, usually with something like 'You stuck-up idiot'.

Anyways the showing I went to was packed, and there were quite a few fans there dressed up as Firefly characters (or companions), including a really well done Kaylee.


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 1, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Did everyone in the theater gasp when Wash died?  I was in packed theater for the sneak preview there were gasps then dead silence.  I was hoping the movie would rewind and show Wash ducking for cover.  It was hard watching the movie a second time knowing what was going to happen.  Rough stuff,  Joss may be a bastard but I loved it.




Holy crap, was I completely stunned. I think I stopped breathing for the next few minutes, and it still hasn't sunk in. Hated it, but I loved it.

And I can say that it certainly filled its purpose- for the next 20 minutes, I really didn't have any idea who was going to get it next. I almost thought Joss was going to kill the whole damn crew, because the tension was ratcheted so high afterwards.

It was so tense in the theater (which didn't have too many people in it at the time, so there wasn't a mob shared emotion thingy going on), that when River popped her head in on Simon and Kaylee at the end- a funny moment to be sure, but not hysterical- the audience broke into outrageous fits of laughter. I got the sense that they were laughing not so much at the scene itself, but as a release from all the tension and trauma that the end of the movie had wrought, especially Wash's death. Powerful stuff.



> I think Book used to be and Operative of Parliment before he became a sheppard.




I didn't get that at first, until I saw some other people suggest it, and now I have to agree with the assessment. It certainly fits.

I think he was probably an Operative, but his sense of remorse over the means he used got to him and he retired. Then he became a sheperd so that he could continue his mission (that he still wholeheartedly, possibly even fanatically) believed in- the Alliance at its core- but in a different manner. Not through violence, but through peace.

Of course, when he joined up with Serenity, he came to a realization like the Operative in this movie, that life on the Rim isn't exactly like the Alliance would have you believe. Hence his "crisis of conscience" in the pilot episode- "I think I got on the wrong ship."

Yes, I am a believer that he, too, was once an operative.

Speaking of whom, wow. What an awesome villain. Great performance, memorable villain. I only wish he'd had a name other than "Operative", because every time I saw him, I was thinking "who the ???? is he?"


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 1, 2005)

WingOver said:
			
		

> I agree.  If you go with that theory and view the Operative as a younger Book, it just rocks.  Was Book as ruthless as the Operative?  Is that why he refuses to discuss his past?  Will the Operative also find faith and take the same path as Book?




I think he's already on that path. I half expected him to join the crew at the end- though in retrospect, I think it wouldn't have worked. From a character perspective, Mal just wouldn't have it, nor would anyone else. Too much of his villainy had been seen to be forgiven, at least not until he does some major league redeeming.



> The Operative just rocked.  Cool, calm, smart and resourceful.  When Inara told Mal that he "couldn't handle this man" you could really believe it.  And when Mal was faster on the draw, and more devious than the Operative, it really added credibility to Mal's status as a hero.




That first scene with the Operative, when he makes the guy fall on his sword. Intense. My buddy was squirming in his chair (kind of funny in itself- didn't realize he was that squeamish). 

So- any takers on the Operative vs. Jubal Early?


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 1, 2005)

Tauric said:
			
		

> Now, was it just me, or was Mal not just asking about the ship when he was talking to Zoe at the end?




Oh- of course. Joss is the master of multi-layered dialogue. There was a bit before that (I think he was talking to River) where the same thing was going on that stood out to me (though damned if I can recall exactly what it was now).

That's one of the things I dearly enjoy about his writing, is the subtext.

(Which makes Buffy's "cookie dough" speech in the finale- written by Joss- stand out so badly, IMO. It was just subpar for what he is/has shown to be capable of.)


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 1, 2005)

Darthjaye said:
			
		

> Wow, so Jane has to live with what's happened........And by that I mean getting his Gol Durned butt beat twice by a 90 pound girl.




I really enjoyed Jayne in this movie, I think more than I did during the series. He didn't seem like such a one-note, dumb galoot for one (which is fun, to a point), and he seems to be growing a bigger sack than he used to, standing up and taking Mal to task, rather than just easily slinking away like he used to. 

I think it showed some growth for the character, which is cool. In his own way, Jayne is growing into more than just the crew's muscle- or extra muscle- and being a part of the family.



> Also, it was nice how they finally introduced the Reavers...and in a big way.  Could the news of what the Alliance has done start another movement towards rebellion?




I'd fully expect the Operative to be a part of something now- trying to find a better way to achieve his dream than what he'd been doing before (perhaps like Book may have done?)

I wouldn't be surprised to see something stirred up against the Alliance, and people to approach Mal to lead it. It's actually where I expected the series to end up going, eventually (by about the end of season 2, start of season 3), with Shepherd Book prodding Mal towards a leadership role.


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## sotmh (Oct 1, 2005)

I was so mad when Wash died.  I literally could not believe that happened.  I sat there thinking, "What is Joss doing, he's ruining everything!"  Of course, the more I thought about it the more it made sense, to the point that I think Joss had intended him to die from the outset of the show (had the series continued on FOX).  Joss has said in interviews that he's always wanted to kill off a main character in a completely unexpected way, he really did it here.  Wash was a real favorite of mine, and I hope the series continues so we can see the ultimate impact his loss (and Book's) will have on the crew.   This was an excellent movie and I was on the edge of my seat the whole last 30 minutes.  I really expected everyone to die at the end, masterfully done.  I'm seeing it again tomorrow.


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## Xath (Oct 1, 2005)

The movie was specatacularly done, and one of the best I've seen all year.  However, I'm not sure I liked it.

Most time in movies, when a character dies, I tear up, and then I'm done with it.  There might be some regret at the end of the movie.

In Serenity, I didn't tear up at all.  To the point where I had to stop and ask myself "Why am I not tearing up?  I love Book and Wash."  And I found that it was because I had some hidden hope that Joss would turn the movie around in some unexpected way, and that everyone would be ok.  Like the whole thing would have been one of River's nightmares.  (yes, I realize that would have cheapened it.)

And at the end of the movie, I sat in shock; hoping there would be some extra scene at the end of the credits explaining why my two favorite characters had dissapeared.  But it didn't happen.

And then when I got out of the theatre and into the car, I confess, I bawled like a baby.  Joss Whedon has this horrible/wonderful effect on me where he makes me feel as though his characters are real people.  And after watching the series and the movie, I felt as though I knew them.  Yes, it's a bit silly, but whatever.  And even though the movie was a magnificent work, I'm not sure that I like that a piece of media was able to evoke that kind of emotion from me.  I'm not that kind of willy-nilly cries alot kind of girl.  

It's that kind of revalation that makes me realize that Joss Whedon has a skill with writing that I have not seen paralleled.  I wasn't the only one in the theatre to sit there in that stunned silence.


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## CarlZog (Oct 1, 2005)

I think I walked into this movie with a lot of expectation that probably made it unfair to judge on its own merits. Right or wrong, I really assumed this movie would written more like a setup for a renewed series or at least a couple more movies. While those doors are obviously wide open, I was really surprised how many of the central conflicts from the series were so neatly and quickly resolved in this movie.

Watching Firefly then Serenity made me feel like I'd read the first five chapters of a great book then skipped ahead to the last chapter. I may know how it ends now, but I'd still would have rather had a chance to read the rest of the book.

Overall, I walked away from Serenity thinking that Whedon's talents are stronger in the series medium, where plotlines have the time (assuming you don't get cancelled) to develop slowly and subtly.  A lot of Serenity seemed like it was beating me over the head, but maybe to someone unfamiliar with the series, it wouldn't have seemed that way. Admittedly, it can't be easy to start a story in the middle; introduce all the characters and their motivations; try to explain what's happened so far; then resolve everything -- in two hours.

Wash's death did open the door for anything to happen, which lead to a lot higher level of suspense for the end of the movie. I was positive River was dead, but I was never worried about Mal.

So with the central issues of the series wrapped up or made moot (who was Book?), it'll be interesting to see where Whedon goes from here.

Carl


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## Greylock (Oct 1, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> So with the central issues of the series wrapped up or made moot (who was Book?), it'll be interesting to see where Whedon goes from here.
> 
> Carl




Ahhh, but they were not all wrapped up so nice and neat. There's room left to develop all the characters, and there was one group of major bad guys who don't appear in the movie. A group that might still want to get their "hands" on River.


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## CarlZog (Oct 1, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> Ahhh, but they were not all wrapped up so nice and neat. There's room left to develop all the characters, and there was one group of major bad guys who don't appear in the movie. A group that might still want to get their "hands" on River.




Maybe I've made a rash assumption that they were the bad guys behind her development in the first place... Are they somebody else altogether?


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## Crothian (Oct 1, 2005)

For me Bok's death was predicatible but needed.  I really liked how his death showed the ruthlessness of the Operative and the way he thinks.  It was well done.  I love how Bok set up the movie with faith.  

Wash's death was a suprise but built up tension.  After he died I lost the safety net of thinking the other character were going to live.  Its been ages when I actually saw a movie and thought the good guys might all die, that never happens.  But with Wash's death, the tension was there and I was really expecting more deaths.  Joss did that brilliantly.

THis is easily the best moview of the year so far.


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## Dagger75 (Oct 1, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> I think I walked into this movie with a lot of expectation that probably made it unfair to judge on its own merits. Right or wrong, I really assumed this movie would written more like a setup for a renewed series or at least a couple more movies. While those doors are obviously wide open, I was really surprised how many of the central conflicts from the series were so neatly and quickly resolved in this movie.
> 
> Watching Firefly then Serenity made me feel like I'd read the first five chapters of a great book then skipped ahead to the last chapter. I may know how it ends now, but I'd still would have rather had a chance to read the rest of the book.
> 
> ...





I felt pretty much the opposite of this.  My feelings are that it gave me closure for the series.  Sure I would have loved 5 seasons of build up to get to this point but it didn't happen. I would love a sequal, but if one is never made I could honestly say I am satisiifed with how the movie wrapped up the Firefly story for me.  Sure there are some unanswered questions but I am still happy.


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## Captain Tagon (Oct 1, 2005)

When I walked out of the theatre the only thought in my mind was:

Celebrity Death Match:

River Tam vs. Paul Atreides

The end.


(Oh, and I loved the movie, finally beat out Batman Begins for my favorite film of the year.)


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## Sir Brennen (Oct 1, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> Ahhh, but they were not all wrapped up so nice and neat. There's room left to develop all the characters, and there was one group of major bad guys who don't appear in the movie. A group that might still want to get their "hands" on River.



Those guys made an appearance in the Serenity comic mini-series - three issues which span the time between the TV series and movie.



			
				CarlZog said:
			
		

> Maybe I've made a rash assumption that they were the bad guys behind her development in the first place... Are they somebody else altogether?



"Two by two, hands of blue"


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## Darthjaye (Oct 1, 2005)

Personally I hope this movie does make of money.  It would be nice for those guys over at 
Fox to be kicking themselves for letting this show slip with their antics of showing it out of order and putting in a suicide slot.  Question, has a show (other than another incarnation like the ST series) ever been cancelled, gotten a movie work, and then returned to TV?  SCI-FI network could use another good series..................not that they don't already have several good ones mind you.


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## Lazybones (Oct 1, 2005)

A great movie, although the Miranda-Reavers plot ruins my NWN Firefly campaign (I had an alternative origin for the Reavers). I agree with everyone who commented on Wash's death; in hindsight and reading your comments I see that it was set up to provide a sense of "anything can happen, including TPK" for the final scene. I wonder if Alan Tudyk had suggested that he wanted out of any possible future movies, or if he took a bullet for the team (or in this case, the plot). 

I rarely see movies twice (prior to DVD release), but I think I'll have to make an exception in this case. I have been loaning my DVDs out to everyone in my circle of friends, trying to sell movie tickets. My theatre wasn't filled for the 7:15 showing, but I can't see it NOT making back the 45 million it cost to make several times over in the initial US release. If it breaks 100 million, I think the sequel is certain.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 1, 2005)

I'll just echo here what everyone else is saying - Wash's death was both tragic after his heroic flying, but also made me wonder if anyone was going to make it.  Especially Simon; when he got shot I was sure he was gonna die.

For me, the absolute best scene in the movie is Simon breaking River out.  It really cemented the fact that they're close, perhaps closer than any of the rest of Serenity.  There may be love amongst the rest of the crew, but Simon and River make it all seem less so.  Also, Simon kicking some butt is always cool.    

I said it in the rating thread, but I really think the story would have worked better in TV format, with Joss having the opportunity to spread it out a bit.  One big example is Mr. Universe... was I supposed to care he died?  I might have more if he had been built up.  Same with River and Miranda... here's a planet that's not in any database, but River looks it up in Serenity's computer?  It seemed to come out of the blue, and with some foreshadowing could have worked a lot better.  I would have liked to see Mal start to fall, as it were, after Inara left, driving off Book, driving off the Tams, starting to alienate his crew even.  Book's death was another plot point that would have worked better as part of the series... in the movie, it really felt tacked on, and only the fact that I've seen the series makes his death any more poignant than Universe's.

River's a voyeur!!!


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## Nifft (Oct 1, 2005)

A great movie.

Anyone else notice the similarities in commando tactics between Early, The Operative, and Book? I think there's a colony of well-spoken black men who are trained as secret commandos.


Anyone else notice that the movie was basically a state Ninja vs. a ship full of Pirates? And at last we see that Pirates are clearly superior.

 -- N


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## Dark Jezter (Oct 1, 2005)

Very good film.

Of course, I was upset by the fact that Book and Wash died, but Inara survived.  But hey, what are you gonna do?


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## ThirdWizard (Oct 1, 2005)

People at the theater were totally into it. They were clapping and laughing and on and on, and it was _great_! It was like being in a room with 200 other Firefly fans! Oh wait... it was being in a room with 200 other Firefly fans!   

I was sad when Wash died. It was just like... wow... he's... he's... dead... It took a while to sink it. I think my first reaction was "What? What was that?" unable to believe what I saw. But, no, he was dead. Dang...

And, Book! Arg! I'm so sad they killed Book. He was my favorite character. I was hoping we would eventually find out about his past, but alas, we won't... That could have been a movie in itself, but I think Joss doesn't expect another chance, so he's wrapping up some stuff to give closure to viewers. I thank him for that.



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> I think Book used to be and Operative of Parliment before he became a sheppard.




Last night I predicted that that would be the big spec from the movie. But, I can't agree with it at all. The Operative had no name, no rank, and no records. The Alliance guy knew he had clearance, but nothing more about him. Of course, we go back to the Ident Card scene, which is one of the big eye popping moments for Book. They seem to think he is someone important, more imporant than some guy with no name, no rank, and no record.

Besides, can an Operative just leave? We'd have to assume extremely unlikely circumstances in which Book was not only able to leave his position, but gain some kind of high status which would allow him to not only be free to move about but also to carry clout with the Alliance.

I don't think he was an Operative.



			
				DM Magic said:
			
		

> I don't think the Operative lived past the last scene. I'm almost positive he chose to fall on his sword. Remember his speach at the beginning? People that fail should kill themselves -- and he failed.




Agreed, grasping for one last bit of honor.


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## Dagger75 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Mr Universe stuff*

I read the novilization of Serenity and they go into greater detail of this Mr Universe.

Was knew him back in pilots school.  Wash was the 2nd best pilot in the class, that guy was number 1.  He had no idea how to fly though so he just reprogrammed the flight sims to make him pass and then would reprogram autopilots on the real ship to fly.  And if that didn't work he hacked the computers to change his grades.  Was basically cornered the guy after graduation and the guy told him he just wanted a pilots liscense, to go with all his other degrees.  Wash could have told on him but instead he used as leverage to et info and other stuff on him.

 Mr Universe also has a major crush on Zoe.


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## Wolf72 (Oct 1, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Especially Simon; when he got shot I was sure he was gonna die.




me too ... his con might be okay, but he's definitely only got d4's for HD ... maybe with the toughness feat.   



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Mr Universe also has a major crush on Zoe.



 ... well had anyway


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 1, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> Wash's death did open the door for anything to happen, which lead to a lot higher level of suspense for the end of the movie. I was positive River was dead, but I was never worried about Mal.




I had the exact opposite reaction. While I thought that there was a chance Mal might die (and even not complete his mission), as well as the rest of the crew at various points, I was always confident that River would survive, even after the shot of her desperately reaching out before the blast doors shut.

I just knew she'd be kicking butt, and I also couldn't see Joss sentencing any of his female characters to a fate (literally) worse than death at the hands of the Reavers.


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## WayneLigon (Oct 2, 2005)

I was pretty astounded. As a rule I generally don't seek out spoilers on a show or movie, but the two I had seen (one which said this occured between two episodes of the show, and one which said all the actors had signed contracts for two more movies - both of which were obviously wrong, unless we see them in flashbacks) made me totally blind to the idea both Book and Wash could die  I can see it, and I know it's always a possibility in a Wedon show, but it was still shocking. 

Loved the origin of the Reavers.


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## Greylock (Oct 2, 2005)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> Those guys made an appearance in the Serenity comic mini-series - three issues which span the time between the TV series and movie.
> 
> "Two by two, hands of blue"




Up until a month or so ago, I hadn't bought a comic book in over twenty years. 

It really freaked out the staff at Comics & Collectibles when I wandered away from the RPG aisles and started looking at the comics. Fellow I know there, Sean, asked me what was wrong.

I have the comics. 

I must say a very sincere thanks to Randomlings House for FINALLLLY selling me on Firefly.


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## Meloncov (Oct 2, 2005)

There was one shot where I thougt the Reavers had gotten the better hand over River. When combined with the fact that the setup for a final heroic sacrifice was in place I thought she was a gonner.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Oct 2, 2005)

Anyone think one of those most tense and 'worst' parts of the movie is when they're walkking around on Miranda? Whedon pulled an X-Files, with the music building and building and things getting creepier and creepier...but nothing ever jumped out, making it even worse. I was just waiting for a reaver to pop out of no where.


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## KenM (Oct 2, 2005)

I just got back from seeing it. I really liked it but I thought it was pretty predictable. I never watched the show but now I want to rent the DVD's. I do have one logic question though. There is a scene of the Operative looking at a video of the Captain, if the Operative got as much info on the people involved, how come he did not know about the Captain's nerve removal? That should have been in there if it happened while he was serving during the war.


----------



## Dagger75 (Oct 2, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I just got back from seeing it. I really liked it but I thought it was pretty predictable. I never watched the show but now I want to rent the DVD's. I do have one logic question though. There is a scene of the Operative looking at a video of the Captain, if the Operative got as much info on the people involved, how come he did not know about the Captain's nerve removal? That should have been in there if it happened while he was serving during the war.




 Novilazation went into this.  When Mal told him he had the nerve cluster moved the Operative thought to himself he should have looked closer  at Mal's medical records.


----------



## Super Girl (Oct 2, 2005)

I doubt it would be in Mal's records, wasn't Simon the one who did it?  Back when Mal got into the duel with Atherton Wainright over Inara's honor?  Pretty sure that is where Atherton stuck Mal with his sword.


----------



## Dagger75 (Oct 2, 2005)

Super Girl said:
			
		

> I doubt it would be in Mal's records, wasn't Simon the one who did it?  Back when Mal got into the duel with Atherton Wainright over Inara's honor?  Pretty sure that is where Atherton stuck Mal with his sword.




 He says in the movie piece of shrapnel in his first tour tore up that nerve cluster.  Then he dislocated both the operatives shoulders.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Oct 2, 2005)

Wash dying is the first time in a LONG time a movie has shocked me.  It was brutal and unexpected.

Other highlights for me:

River tearing the reavers to pieces.

Simon rescuing River.

Mal's reaction to Kaylee's comment about her nether regions.

Kaylee and Simon finally getting together.

The realization that Miranda was the reaver "homeworld."

Mal's proof that Inara's message was a trap.

River's look when Simon asks her, "Am I talking to Miranda now?"

Book's response when Mal says he'll have to share his secrets some day.

Mal kicking the local off his mule, then shooting him in the head out of mercy.

Mal shooting the Alliance pilot while his hands were up on Haven.

Jayne (of all people) trying to talk sense into Mal.

Sneaking past the reavers.

FINALLY getting to see some additional spaceships in the Firefly universe.  

Thinking they're all going to die.

Finding out that they don't.


----------



## WingOver (Oct 2, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Same with River and Miranda... here's a planet that's not in any database, but River looks it up in Serenity's computer?  It seemed to come out of the blue, and with some foreshadowing could have worked a lot better.




I think they explained that the planet did exist, but it was a "black rock" where terraforming didn't take hold.  News on the planet itself was scrubbed, but it probably still existed in the charts as a dead world.


----------



## Super Girl (Oct 2, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> He says in the movie piece of shrapnel in his first tour tore up that nerve cluster.  Then he dislocated both the operatives shoulders.




I thought he said it was his first duel (meaning sword fight),  I'll just have to go back and see it again   , thanks for giving me a reason


----------



## Banshee16 (Oct 2, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> I was tired of dancing on egg shells in the other two threads and I can't find the spoiler filled thread from way back when so I made another one.
> This is a NO highlight or spoiler block thread, there will be spoilers here so you best stop reading if you haven't seen the movie.
> 
> 
> ...




That completely shocked me.  They were "safe"....they'd landed, Wash was happy because he'd kept them alive.  It was his moment of triumph, and then, *bam*.....out of nowhere.  Was not expecting that.  I was less surprised by Book.

I agree about Book.  Don't know if anyone remembers, but in the pilot episode he pulls out some Shepherd-Fu on that bounty hunter, and I was wondering why a priest would know how to do that.  He also had lots of inside info about the Alliance.....I'd probably concur he used to be an agent.  Now we'll never know.

River.  Very cool.  Lethal.  The scene where the blast doors open again and she's standing there with the dripping weapons...

The Reavers....very....disturbing.  I caught a glance of one coming through the doors, who'd cut away all his lips, showing just his teeth and gums.  Through the whole series, they  never showed what they looked like, and now we know.

I don't remember Mr. Universe being in the series.  Did I miss an episode?

The Operative was very cool.  However, didn't Mal snap his spine?  Yet at the end he's walking around?  I laughed when Mal told him he'd been wounded by shrapnel so the nerves the Operative was trying to his had been removed.  I was a little surprised that when they drew pistols on each other, that Mal didn't just shoot him in the forehead, since he knew the guy was wearing body armor.

I loved Kaylee's "I want to live now".  That was pretty funny.  It's too bad that Inara and Mal didn't have any closure.  But I guess they're hoping for a sequel, or for the TV show to come back.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16 (Oct 2, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> That was almost word-for-word the same scene as in the original series, when Mal and Zoe first toured Serenity together.
> 
> And it was a rocking way to end,  especially with Inara apparently digging Mal's "war-face".




I think I missed that part of dialog in the movie.  What did they say?

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16 (Oct 2, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> A great movie.
> 
> Anyone else notice the similarities in commando tactics between Early, The Operative, and Book? I think there's a colony of well-spoken black men who are trained as secret commandos.
> 
> ...




The dinosaurs didn't get much action though...

Banshee


----------



## Nifft (Oct 2, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> The dinosaurs didn't get much action though...




Right, but the robot, she got some "action"...

 -- N


----------



## fett527 (Oct 2, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> The dinosaurs didn't get much action though...
> 
> Banshee




Well, they are plastic and probably didn't want to leave their palm trees anyway.


----------



## Richards (Oct 2, 2005)

Originally posted by Banshee:







> I think I missed that part of dialog in the movie. What did they say?



I don't remember verbatim, but it was just after Serenity had been repaired, and Mal and Zoe were checking to see that everything was ready for takeoff.

Mal:  "How's she holding up?"

Zoe:  "She's seen better days, but she'll make it through all right."

Again, there were two levels to this conversation: they were discussing the physical status of Serenity, and the emotional status of Zoe.  A very well-written piece, and in character for both.

Johnathan


----------



## shaylon (Oct 2, 2005)

I really enjoyed this movie.  One of the best I have seen in a long time.

I was concerned for the crew after Wash died.  I really wasn't sure what would happen.  Joss Whedon did a great job of this.

I didn't like the River scene where she beat up her brother and was hijacking the ship.  I realize this moved the story ahead, but couldn't they just have gotten on the intercom and said the magic fall asleep words?  I just thought that was a simple solution that the characters would have immediately come up with.

I was sad to see Wash and Book die.  I really wanted to see more about Book.  I hope that if they make another movie you learn more about his life before becoming a Shepard.  There were so many clues in the TV series and even the movie that made me want to know more.

Jayne was awesome!  His character is probably my favorite.  I think he is funny and just when you think he is growing as a person he does something terrible for money.  Great character.

Really enjoyable.  I may even go see it again before I buy the DVD.

-Shay


----------



## Jeremy (Oct 2, 2005)

I've seen it twice now.  It's an incredible movie and I'm happy that my money was spent on something so moving.

But silly or not, I'm depressed.  I was bummed out after the first viewing and I'm positively tanked after seeing it again.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 2, 2005)

shaylon said:
			
		

> Jayne was awesome!  His character is probably my favorite.  I think he is funny and just when you think he is growing as a person he does something terrible for money.  Great character.




"I mean, I'd kill a man - in a fair fight.  Or if it looked like he was gonna start a fair fight.  Or if he looked at me funny.  Or if there was a woman.  Or if I was paid..."


----------



## Pielorinho (Oct 2, 2005)

Nobody's mentioned my one quibble, so maybe I'm just not understanding the movie.

The way I see it, when they're heading to Mr. Universe's hideout, there's two possibilities:
1) They don't expect to be intercepted by the Alliance; or
2) They expect to be intercepted by the Alliance.

If #1, then why on earth do they lead the entire population of Reavers toward Mr. Universe's planet? That's suicide!

If #2, then why on earth do they even bother to go there? Surely if the Alliance gets there before they do, Mr. Universe is going to be dead and the facility is going to be destroyed.

It seems like the logical thing for them to do would be to make the appointment with Mr. Universe, then go somewhere completely different and upload the video to a couple dozen messageboards. Or, I dunno, do something not suicidal, something that has a miniscule chance of success. (It seems to me that the only way they could predict their plan's success would be if Mr. Universe had a backup facility and a Buffybot to inform Mal of the facility's existence).

Other than that, I thought it was the best SF movie I've seen since Gattaca, and ties with that movie for the best SF I've ever seen.

Daniel


----------



## Umbran (Oct 2, 2005)

Lazybones said:
			
		

> A great movie, although the Miranda-Reavers plot ruins my NWN Firefly campaign (I had an alternative origin for the Reavers).




Well, if it makes you feel better, Joss has been quoted as saying that there are a number of things he changed from the TV universe to the Movie universe.  Specifically, the Reavers you see in the movie are ot the Reavers from teh TV show.  He's not said in what way they differ, but there you are...

The only thing wrong with the movie is that it makes my dream - a return as a TV series - nigh impossible. I know that it would be horribly unlikley anyway, but with the loss of Book and Wash, I find it difficult to imagine making it work on the small screen again.  

Unless, of course, he simply say, "The movie was the movie.  It was one possible future of the TV series, and is not canon."


----------



## Pielorinho (Oct 2, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Well, if it makes you feel better, Joss has been quoted as saying that there are a number of things he changed from the TV universe to the Movie universe.  Specifically, the Reavers you see in the movie are ot the Reavers from teh TV show.  He's not said in what way they differ, but there you are...



Another difference:  on the show, Simon pays people for *them* to smuggle a cryogenically-frozen River out of the military installation.  In the movie, Simon does it himself.

Also, from my understanding, the ship was darker, more cramped, and more detailed in the movie than on the show.

All in all, I thought he kept the continuity between movie and show to an admirable degree.

Daniel


----------



## CarlZog (Oct 2, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> The only thing wrong with the movie is that it makes my dream - a return as a TV series - nigh impossible. I know that it would be horribly unlikley anyway, but with the loss of Book and Wash, I find it difficult to imagine making it work on the small screen again.




Oh sure it could. It would just be a little different. Kaylee and Simon replace Zoe and Wash as the boat's open romance. Mal continues to dance with Innara. River's in the pilot's seat and Zoe grapples with her loss. Open slot for another character.

Carl


----------



## RangerWickett (Oct 2, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> Open slot for another character.




*raises hand* Dibs!


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Oct 2, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *raises hand* Dibs!



 Curses, the Ewok beat me to it...well, guess we have to give the spot to him.


----------



## Pielorinho (Oct 2, 2005)

Y'all are fighting over Wash's spot?

Go for it.  Meanwhile, I hear the party's looking for a cleric, and I am SO THERE!

Daniel


----------



## Kryndal Levik (Oct 2, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Another difference:  on the show, Simon pays people for *them* to smuggle a cryogenically-frozen River out of the military installation.  In the movie, Simon does it himself.




I watched the first episode again today, and came away with either 1) Simon was lying just a bit, which is very possible considering the fact that he was under duress, or 2) the guys smuggled River out (i.e. off-planet) by freezing her, but Simon had to actually break her out.

GREAT movie, by the way; seeing it again this week.  I'm looking forward to checking how well it did in its opening weekend tomorrow (Monday) morning; its success the past few days will probably dictate whether there's a sequel or not.  *crosses fingers*


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 2, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Another difference:  on the show, Simon pays people for *them* to smuggle a cryogenically-frozen River out of the military installation.  In the movie, Simon does it himself.



In the movie, Simon clearly paid a fortune -- his entire fortune, probably -- to get clearance as an assembly member, his special weapon, etc. Seems consistent enough to me.



> Also, from my understanding, the ship was darker, more cramped, and more detailed in the movie than on the show.



I suspect that's just the difference in media. Certainly television lighting is different from movie lighting (even with film as the physical medium for both). Many more details will show up on film than even DVDs (_many_ more). And the space is likely a matter of lens choice. Likely, anyway.


----------



## Hijinks (Oct 2, 2005)

Just thought I'd throw it out there - US Weekly says in this week's issue that Nathan Fillion "doesn't have a face for movies" ... WTF??


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Oct 3, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Just thought I'd throw it out there - US Weekly says in this week's issue that Nathan Fillion "doesn't have a face for movies" ... WTF??



 What...? They're saying he's not pretty enough to lead a movie? Ugh...Hollywood.


----------



## Rackhir (Oct 3, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Nobody's mentioned my one quibble, so maybe I'm just not understanding the movie.
> 
> The way I see it, when they're heading to Mr. Universe's hideout, there's two possibilities:
> 1) They don't expect to be intercepted by the Alliance; or
> ...




Well the fact that they were talking to Mr. Universe was a strong indication that the facility hadn't been destroyed. Also if you recall Mal's reaction when he got into the media chamber he was clearly surprised and upset that the equipment had been destroyed. 

I would surmise that given the Operative's earlier tactics with the consort and the knowledge that the Operative had already hit everyone else they'd associated with in the past, that they knew Mr. Universe had been "compromised", but that they didn't think he'd destroy the equipment since the Operative "knew" he'd have overwhelming force and that they had "no chance" of making it to the facility. It's also possible that Mr. Universe had credibility that simply putting the file on the "Net" wouldn't have had. After all there are lots of sites on the internet that have evidence that "prove" all sorts of conspiracy theories.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Oct 3, 2005)

I think, much like Mal's conversation with Inara, he suspected that Mr. Universe had been compromised, but that they might keep him alive in case he could be useful again.


----------



## Pielorinho (Oct 3, 2005)

Makes sense.  Also, on another MB where I posted the same concern, someone pointed out that the Alliance has a lot of trouble finding someone from space when they're on the ground (e.g., when Serenity lands to meet Inara).  And Mr. Universe obviously had gone to a great deal of trouble to hide his installation.  Maybe Mal figured that they'd have found the planet, but not have found Mr. Universe's hideout on the planet.

in any case, quibble retracted!
Daniel


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Oct 3, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I jumped when Wash got hit. He and Book are probably my favorite characters...but despite seeing them both go down, I'm fine with it. Honestly, I'm glad Joss wasn't afraid to let some major characters die.
> 
> Wash really stole every scene he was in, as usual. And Book. Well. Book's death scene was perfect. I can't really think of any other way to describe it.




It was typical Hollywood death scene. Guy holds out long enough for hero to glean info but not long enough for medical to show up...



> Now I want more. I know that we've lost the pilot but...I want more! I always found River interesting, but after the last scene in the movie with her up as co-pilot, I require more.




River didn't do anything to me to get me to feel sorry for her or anything. And the villian guy was bleh. There wasn't that much motive for him to hate Mal with such "passion". I rather liked the guy who "liked to blow stuff up". 

Granted, I'd only seen one episode of the series, so alot of the "funny" stuff our audience found funny, I went "huh?" because they seemed to refer to stuff that was never explained. After the intro, they seemed, IMO, to assume you'd seen at least half the show if not all of it and was a fan to boot.


----------



## Sialia (Oct 3, 2005)

All I can say is . . after seeing the afternoon matinee yesterday for my birthday (happy birthday to me!), and a wonderful evening full of other festivities and dropping into bed exhausted last night, I suddenly woke up at about 2am saying to myself "What's the definition of a hero?"

Joss is a bad, bad man.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Oct 3, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> Is the impact less if you didnt watch the show? Absolutely, but there is NO possible away around that. Is the movie still a great flick for firefly virgins? I think for them it would be good, not great. The emotions are what brings it to the next level.




Not quite a "firefly virgin"...   But seeing only one ep didn't prep one for the movie, despite claims to the contrary.



> But good is still better than every other movie disaster of 2005.




Haven't seen anything else this year other than Star Wars, so can't really comment there... ran out of budget to see some other summer flicks.



> This movie is near perfect. I can't wait to see the numbers it does (I wouldnt be surpsied at a sucky 10 mil or a nice big 40) and I cant wait for my friends to stop working nights so i can see their reactions.




I don't think it's gonna break box office records or be at the top unless the other movies' attendance sucked. There was probably 4 dozen people that I could see in the showing we were in... And that was from sitting midway back in the theater and not turning to see just how many were behind us...

It was "eh" on my scale. May see it next weekend if a couple of friends who didn't go this time want to see it.


----------



## Hijinks (Oct 3, 2005)

I think it's going to start slowly and build gradually.

MTV News called it the "little movie that could" and "the next great sci fi franchise."  Obviously there's something there.  The buzz will get butts in the seats.


----------



## noretoc (Oct 3, 2005)

My favorite line.  (paraphasing) "If something happens to me, or i'm not back back in an hour ...  You take the ship  and come and rescue me"..  You so expect him to say get everyone out of here.


----------



## Dagger75 (Oct 3, 2005)

noretoc said:
			
		

> My favorite line.  (paraphasing) "If something happens to me, or i'm not back back in an hour ...  You take the ship  and come and rescue me"..  You so expect him to say get everyone out of here.





Mal:  Zoe you have the ship and if I'm not back in 1 hour you take this ship and you come rescue me.

Zoe: What and lose my new ship.

God I loved that part.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 3, 2005)

www.boxofficemojo.com is predicting a $10 million open, #2 behind Flightplan.  THat's not too great - though the theater I was in was packed.  However, Joss has said in interviews that he's really looking to the second weekend.  If it can build, or at least not lose much (most films lose 40% or more in the second weekend) than it's got a chance to do well - the fall season is fairly open in terms of films, and it could run for a while.


----------



## Captain Tagon (Oct 3, 2005)

I saw the movie with three people who had never even heard of Firefly and they all loved the film.


----------



## Ao the Overkitty (Oct 3, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> I must say a very sincere thanks to Randomlings House for FINALLLLY selling me on Firefly.




On behalf of the boards, I say, 'You're welcome, ya bastard.' 

As for whether it does a sucky ten mil or a grand 40 mil, Box Office Mojo estimates it at just over a sucky 10 mil and second to Flightplan.  Course, Flightplan was shown in lots more theatres.

As for the movie, i was shocked several times the first time i saw it, back in June.  This time, it was nice to pick up on little bits.  I knew to look for things like the camera centering on Wash just after Jayne has his line about pointless death on Miranda.  There are a couple of others that I noticed that I'm trying to remember.


----------



## Nifft (Oct 3, 2005)

Open character slot ideas:
- Book's son, who comes looking for revenge and finds a cause to champion;
- Inara's assigned (male) bodyguard, who looks like a model, acts like a commando, and makes Mal nervous on several levels;
- Mal's "wife", who was being hunted due to events from the movie, blames Mal for stirring up trouble, and guilts him into giving her shelter -- though that does put the girl/boy ratio up a bit high, the Inara / "wife" tension would be amusing;
- Zoe's dad or uncle, who knows a bit about piloting, and reminds us of Wash in small ways;
- River's mysterious younger sister, who appears out of nowhere, and wants to be a cheerleader; or
- Spike. He makes every series better.

 -- N


----------



## Greylock (Oct 3, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> The way I see it, when they're heading to Mr. Universe's hideout, there's two possibilities:
> 1) They don't expect to be intercepted by the Alliance; or
> 2) They expect to be intercepted by the Alliance.
> 
> ...




A little of one, a little of two:

Yes, Mal figured it was an ambush, hence, kiting the Reavers. 

No, he expected to find Mr. Universe alive. 

Made sense to me anyways.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Oct 3, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> A great movie.
> 
> Anyone else notice the similarities in commando tactics between Early, The Operative, and Book? I think there's a colony of well-spoken black men who are trained as secret commandos.
> 
> ...



I was thinking the very same thing!  Book and the Operative was very interesting, and order of clones/family or something else.  Freaking amazing.


----------



## Crothian (Oct 3, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> A little of one, a little of two:
> 
> Yes, Mal figured it was an ambush, hence, kiting the Reavers.
> 
> ...




It made perfect sense to me too, Mal does not understand or expect the easy killing the agent does and has his people do.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Oct 3, 2005)

noretoc said:
			
		

> My favorite line.  (paraphasing) "If something happens to me, or i'm not back back in an hour ...  You take the ship  and come and rescue me"..  You so expect him to say get everyone out of here.




I liked Zoe's response better- "What, and take *my* ship into danger?" 

It seems to get overshadowed by the laughs at Mal's line, though. (A pity, too, since it's probably one of the last lighthearted quips we'll hear from her for some time.)


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Oct 3, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Mal:  Zoe you have the ship and if I'm not back in 1 hour you take this ship and you come rescue me.
> 
> Zoe: What and lose my new ship.
> 
> God I loved that part.




Yes- that's the line. Should have read down one post before responding. 

Glad to see someone else enjoyed Zoe's quip, though.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 3, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> Oh sure it could. It would just be a little different.




No, it would be a lot different, and that's the problem.  The thing that made the show work in the first place was the character dynamic.  You make it sound as if holding the old audience with what would by necessity be a radically different dymanic would be easy.  I don't agree with that assessment.  Very few TV shows survive loss of major characters well.  Thus my doubts.

Now, be glad that there's no sign of time travel in the Firefly universe.  Because then the connections between Book and the Operative could be much more than coincidental...


----------



## Banshee16 (Oct 3, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Just thought I'd throw it out there - US Weekly says in this week's issue that Nathan Fillion "doesn't have a face for movies" ... WTF??




I read another review that said Nathan Fillion is the new "Han Solo" that the Star Wars prequels were missing.

I don't think it's clearcut.  Some reviewers just can't get past the fact that this is based on a cancelled TV show.  They assume that it sucks just because of being cancelled.  My local paper had a blurb where they basically called it a TV quality space epic that only exists because of a bunch of guys in their basements complained about their show being cancelled.

I was pretty miffed, as it's a pretty ignorant, and abusive thing to print.

Banshee


----------



## PhoenixDarkDirk (Oct 3, 2005)

One theory about Book that I read a while back is that he was an Alliance general at Serenity Valley who was disgusted by his side's actions, joined the clergy, and deliberately sought to travel with an Independent veteran of that battle.

As soon as the woman from the recording mentioned the opposite effect, I knew where the movie would go with that.

I also thought it was appropriate that the words "pax" and "pox" are pretty similar.


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 3, 2005)

I don't think the ex-general thing would give him the kind of clout he had at the Alliance cruiser... I'd think they wouldn't like him much.

Pax means peace, and dying = finding your peace, so there ya go.


----------



## Tetsubo (Oct 3, 2005)

Something occurred to me at work last night... why didn't the crew loot Miranda? Within a couple of hours they would have netted enough money for all of them to retire...


----------



## Belen (Oct 3, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Something occurred to me at work last night... why didn't the crew loot Miranda? Within a couple of hours they would have netted enough money for all of them to retire...




Probably because the "pax" agent may still be active within the buildings air.   Also, they were on a mission that second that saw that recording.


----------



## Belen (Oct 3, 2005)

I thought Serenity was the best movie I have seen since Return of the King.  No other movie has stirred up so much emotion in a long time.  I am still in shock over the death of Wash.  He was one of my most loved characters.  My wife and I always loved the fact that a strong married couple was a part of the series and I will be sad to see that dynamic disappear.

I just hope they make more movies.  The actors and the universe are too good to see their end with this movie.


----------



## Tetsubo (Oct 3, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Probably because the "pax" agent may still be active within the buildings air.   Also, they were on a mission that second that saw that recording.




They had suits. And "missions" need funding... these people are mercenaries. Warm fuzzy mercenaries for the most part, but mercenaries nonetheless...

Mal kicked a guy into an engine intake because he didn't like his attitude... they could have spared a few hours to become fabulously rich...


----------



## Dagger75 (Oct 3, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> They had suits. And "missions" need funding... these people are mercenaries. Warm fuzzy mercenaries for the most part, but mercenaries nonetheless...
> 
> Mal kicked a guy into an engine intake because he didn't like his attitude... they could have spared a few hours to become fabulously rich...




 Maybe they did who knows.  But they also went on mission they didn't think they would come back from so why loot.


----------



## Rugger (Oct 3, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Anyone else notice that the movie was basically a state Ninja vs. a ship full of Pirates? And at last we see that Pirates are clearly superior.
> 
> -- N




I TOTALLY was thinking that, especially in Mal's fight with the Operative...I half expected him to outright say that Pirates are better than Ninjas 

Wonderful flick. Wonderful show. Me wanty more.

-Rugger


----------



## Umbran (Oct 3, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Mal kicked a guy into an engine intake because he didn't like his attitude... they could have spared a few hours to become fabulously rich...




Fabulously rich, or fabulously raped to death, skinned and eaten (hopefully in that order).  Recall that they are on the surface of the Reaver's home planet.  Perhaps assuming that the nasties all left the surface, so that it'd be safe to make yoruself a sitting duck while looting, would be less than wise?


----------



## drothgery (Oct 3, 2005)

Rugger said:
			
		

> I TOTALLY was thinking that, especially in Mal's fight with the Operative...I half expected him to outright say that Pirates are better than Ninjas




Of course, the Operative couldn't beat Mal in an unfair fight, so I'm not sure how he expected to be able to take down River...


----------



## Jeremy (Oct 3, 2005)

Oh, the Operative could have beaten Mal in a fair, unfair, or just about any other kinda fight.  But as the book says, he should have paid more attention to Mal's medical records.

You know what your sin is, Operative?  Pride.  You love your little final words to your opponents as they stand frozen.  Rather than go for nerve clusters and go find your sword for your elegant finish, you should have just snapped my neck while you were behind me.  Now lookit you there, shoulders all outta place...  I'm all choked up.  Honestly, there could be tears...


----------



## Jeremy (Oct 3, 2005)

And he may also have access to River's conditioning pass phrases.


----------



## 0-hr (Oct 3, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Of course, the Operative couldn't beat Mal in an unfair fight, so I'm not sure how he expected to be able to take down River...




Ya know, that's what struck me too. Mal should have though "Hey, this guy doesn't carry a gun. If he wants River, good luck with that." 

The operative would have lasted all of about 10 seconds.

I'm also wondering why Mal didn't just shoot the Operative in the head at the start of their last fight. We know Mal can make the shot. Did the Operative block his face as he went down (I'll have to watch more closely next time).

As for looting Miranda - it's  not like the loot is going anywhere. If your plan is to try and outrun the entire Reaver fleet, do you really want to fill up your cargo hold first? Speed might be important. And dallying on a poisonous dead world with the Reaver armada overhead just don't seem too bright. If Reavers loot, then the planet has been looted. If the Reavers don't loot, then it's going to be awfully suspicious to see that Firefly down there loading up with goodies.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## Shallown (Oct 3, 2005)

As far as the leading he reavers to mr universe's world. Zoe said in the research and rescue ship that the alliance would see that coming and be there to stop them and mal said "they won't see this coming"

The reason Joss killed Wash is to Shock us and make us realize no one was safe. It kept everyone on  edge (including me) about who was next. Ie that even made no one safe even mal.

I think Book either at one time was an operative in training or was somehow in charge of or a liason to one. The reason I don't think he was one was even though he kicks butt didn't he lose to the assassin that came on the ship in themiddle of space? Seems like an operative might not have gone down so easy.

I did like how some crew seemed to go on with their lives such as Book and Innara. made the movie more 3 diminsional.


What threw my friend was Innara using a bow against the reavers but I seem to remember her saying something about learning to shoot (and sword duel) as part of her companion training am I imagining that?

Later


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## 0-hr (Oct 3, 2005)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> And he may also have access to River's conditioning pass phrases.




You posted while I was writing. That's a good point.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Oct 3, 2005)

Saw it.  Loved it.

Some thoughts

Name Dropping - A buddy of mine met up with Adam Turyek (or however you spell his name, anyway, "Wash") after seeing him in the Broadway "Spamalot".  My buddy asked Adam if he was going to be in a new _Firefly_ TV show.  Adam said "no" very quickly and then went on to say that Joss has been bitten by the movie bug and doesn't want to go back to TV anytime soon.  In hindsight, Adam was obviously referring to Wash's death in the movie and then covered up for his spoiler.

River's big Reaver fight - Eh.  It was good, but the actress needs more martial arts training.  She has a lot of dance training and that obviously helps her and gives River a bit of an eerie grace.  But I frankly thought that was a weak melee.

Innara's big Reaver fight - Wow. What detail.  Innara used a bow with chemical arrows.  Anyone else catch that?  It was a nice touch for the fans.  Innara knows how to use archaic weapons as a kinda-sorta member of the elite class.  We've seen that she's pretty much useless in a fight, so when she loads for bear she does it with the only weapons she's any good with.  Another nice touch was when she attempted to fight the Operative.  She got her ass kicked.  

Jayne shows some love - Notice when everyone was belting up for crashing Jayne did not strap himself in, but did a check on everyone else first?  He's definately one of the crew now even if he's still the captian in his own head.

Operative & Book - I'll bet a d12 that the Operative is Book's son.

Mr Universe - Eh.  I laughed at the wedding clip though. _L'chaim!_

Wash's death - I also thought that this was going to result in a Total Party Kill.  

Mal kites the Reavers - You know, even though saw it coming, it was still cool.

Good movie.


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## Hand of Evil (Oct 3, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Saw it.  Loved it.
> 
> Mr Universe - Eh.  I laughed at the wedding clip though. _L'chaim!_
> 
> Good movie.




Thinking back on it now, Mr Universe should have been "Warren"


----------



## Pielorinho (Oct 3, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> River didn't do anything to me to get me to feel sorry for her or anything. And the villian guy was bleh. There wasn't that much motive for him to hate Mal with such "passion". I rather liked the guy who "liked to blow stuff up".



Interesting--I didn't get the impression that the Operative hated Mal at all.  He was a zealot, and he prided himself on breaking the eggs you gotta break to make an omelette.  His identity was built around being passionless--or, rather, for having a passion only for utopia.  What a lethal villain, therefore!

Zealots don't bend:  they break.  Mal captured the zealot, and showed him the utopia for which the Operative was working.  That utopia was Miranda, a planet that the Alliance had made peaceful and free of fighting.

And, in the process, killed thirty million people, and spawned a group of psychotic cannibalistic murderers; and whose existence they'd covered up.  Had they learned from their hideous error?  No:  they were sending out an assassin, a zealot--him--to kill enough people that nobody would ever learn the lessons of the error.  He wasn't on a mission for utopia; he was on a mission to cover up Hell.

The zealot, on seeing his dream turn out to be a nightmare, could not adjust himself to the new reality. He could not modify his plans.  His plans shattered.

It was beautiful.

Daniel


----------



## CarlZog (Oct 3, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Innara's big Reaver fight -
> 
> 
> Jayne shows some love -





Both of the these caught my attention too. I'm eager to see this again for those nuances of development. Especially since some of the movie was way too blunt for me, like the argument over leaving people behind and Mal's history in the war -- little too cliche.

Another more subtle touch I noticed was when the reaver made it into the cargo bay and got shot. River approaches the body and mutters "He didn't lie down. Why didn't he lie down?" -- a hint at the reavers' origin that seemed truly meaningless at the time. Nice detail.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 3, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> Another more subtle touch I noticed was when the reaver made it into the cargo bay and got shot. River approaches the body and mutters "He didn't lie down. Why didn't he lie down?" -- a hint at the reavers' origin that seemed truly meaningless at the time. Nice detail.




I think she said "they never lie down."  Having seen the movie back when the were doing the original screenings, and then seeing it again, I noticed that a lot of River's ramblings were tied into the Reavers and Miranda, if obliquely.


----------



## sniffles (Oct 3, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> Another more subtle touch I noticed was when the reaver made it into the cargo bay and got shot. River approaches the body and mutters "He didn't lie down. Why didn't he lie down?" -- a hint at the reavers' origin that seemed truly meaningless at the time. Nice detail.




Actually, I think she said "They never lie down". Still the same significance, though. Nice subtle foreshadowing.

The first time I saw it, about 3 weeks ago at a sneak preview, I was in tears when Wash died. I had to sort of stifle it because I was sitting next to a total stranger. On second viewing since I knew what to expect I actually got more emotional over Shepherd's death 
(I teared up the first time, too, but not as much as for Wash). I recall that during the movie on Friday, I heard a woman cry out "No!" when Wash died. I thought that scene was very effectively done - it looked like everything was okay, and Wash said "I'm a leaf on the wind" and the audience was laughing and then - wham! he's dead. 

I was almost expecting a TPK too, as many others posters have commented. It was a relief to see that most of the team survived. I like it when a creator isn't afraid to kill off some of his creations. I was also really pleased that no one felt it necessary to linger on the Reavers' appearance too much. So many movie directors these days would give us long loving shots of just how horrific the Reavers are, mainly to show off their special effects budget. Joss Whedon recognizes that his audience members have imaginations and can fill in the blanks themselves. I also liked it that after Mal defeated the Operative, he _looked_ like someone who'd been involved in a knock-down, drag-out fight.

One thing I did notice more on seeing it a second time was that the editing seemed much more like a tv movie than a theatrical film. I can't think of specific examples at the moment, except for the opening credits when they were showing the actors' names over the scenes of Wash and Mal in the cockpit. It just reminded me more of what you normally see on television. In retrospect I think it might have worked a bit better as a tv movie, but I'm very glad it was made and that I got to see it.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 3, 2005)

So in the Firefly/Serenity series we can say Pirates 2, Ninjas 0 !

Firelfly fan. Cant believe that this series was cancelled when other sci-fi series that are not nearly as good are still going. My theory -- No alien races. Scifi producers tend to like lots of bug-eyed, spacefaring races to fill up their screens. 

I really enjoyed the film and want to see it again. Shocked at Wash's death . Zoe's lines are very poignant, "Wake up baby.." showing how strong their relationship is (i really appreciate Joss writing in a loving, loyal married couple). Thought that Zoe was going to suicide til Jayne talked some sense into her. 

I thought that both Kaylee and the Doc were going down, until River woke up.  Didn't cry until the funeral scene. 

I liked how the big hero of the story was Mal. I love that the Operative underestimated his opponent. We know that Mal is a tough SOB. Remember "War Stories"?


----------



## Arnwyn (Oct 3, 2005)

An excellent movie, but Wash's death (Book's a bit, but less so) disappointed me. No question that it was good for the movie and increased the tension marvelously, but my fanboy side didn't take it very well.

I know for certain that I don't care to see any more of Firefly, in terms of any possible sequels or a new tv series - this movie was the end of Firefly for me. The movie (and bridging comics) tied up everything very well, and made a great ending of the series.


----------



## Rackhir (Oct 3, 2005)

Killing Walsh shouldn't have been quite so unexpected. He did the same thing to Doyle at the end of the first season of Angel and for much the same reasons. Though it made Walsh's death no less, shocking, effective or sad.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Oct 3, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Interesting--I didn't get the impression that the Operative hated Mal at all.  He was a zealot, and he prided himself on breaking the eggs you gotta break to make an omelette.  His identity was built around being passionless--or, rather, for having a passion only for utopia.  What a lethal villain, therefore!
> 
> Zealots don't bend:  they break.  Mal captured the zealot, and showed him the utopia for which the Operative was working.  That utopia was Miranda, a planet that the Alliance had made peaceful and free of fighting.
> 
> ...



The most terrible thing about the Operative was he believed that no matter how evil he was the outcome justified it.  He knew his utopian dream did not have a place for him but that was okay as long as it created that utpoia.  To find out there is no garden of eden made him start to think for himself and gave him freedom of choice.  

It was beautiful.  

So, how many saw that Utopia as a stab at the ST: Fed


----------



## Mallus (Oct 3, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> So, how many saw that Utopia as a stab at the ST: Fed



I saw the Alliance/Utopia as a stab at something we shouldn't talk about on this board...


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## danzig138 (Oct 3, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> He did the same thing to Doyle at the end of the first season of Angel and for much the same reasons.



Hopefully, no one reading this is waiting to see Angel S1. And just to note, Hero was the 9th episode of the season.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Oct 3, 2005)

Mallus said:
			
		

> I saw the Alliance/Utopia as a stab at something we shouldn't talk about on this board...




The political angle you mean?

You know it's funny.  I read a lot of news and opinion sites.  Both sides are claiming the Alliance represents the worst of "the other side".  

And on that note I do believe I shall refrian from further commentary.


----------



## Mallus (Oct 3, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> The political angle you mean?



Yup.


> You know it's funny.  I read a lot of news and opinion sites.  Both sides are claiming the Alliance represents the worst of "the other side".



I though it ever-so-gently implicated both sides. Its a pretty loose sort of allegory.  


> And on that note I do believe I shall refrian from further commentary.



'Reckon I should too.


----------



## jester47 (Oct 3, 2005)

I think that the Shepard was the General that won the battle of serenity valley.  The alliance ship reaction to him was sort of like he was a hero.  I think that is why Book never told Mal his history.  He knew that if he did, Mal would kill him without a second thought. 

If there is another movie, I think it will cover Blue Sun and Books past.  They could use some flashback to explain some things.  The third movie would deal with Inara's past.


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## dravot (Oct 3, 2005)

Mallus said:
			
		

> Yup.
> 
> I though it ever-so-gently implicated both sides. Its a pretty loose sort of allegory.
> 
> 'Reckon I should too.



Which is weird to me, cause I rarely, if ever assign a political ideology to that type of gubbermint-gone-wrong scenario.

Maybe I'm just naive.


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## Rykion (Oct 3, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Of course, the Operative couldn't beat Mal in an unfair fight, so I'm not sure how he expected to be able to take down River...




He wouldn't have been a match for River when she is in control of herself, but she really never was until finding the truth of Miranda set her free.  The Operative would also know the safety words to shut River down.



			
				Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Something occurred to me at work last night... why didn't the crew loot Miranda? Within a couple of hours they would have netted enough money for all of them to retire...




Most of their contacts for selling "hot" items were dead.  Miranda seemed to be an Alliance pet project so any item of worth would have Alliance markings.  Mal also had his plan to kite in the Reavers.  Would Serenity have been fast enough to outrun those reavers with a full cargo hold?


----------



## Rackhir (Oct 3, 2005)

I'd have to agree, I didn't think they were trying to make any sort of real world analogy either. The point was that the ends don't justify the means and that you can't build a Utopia on top of bodies.


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## Jeremy (Oct 3, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Killing Walsh shouldn't have been quite so unexpected. <snip>



Unrelated Angel Spoiler.



Spoiler



Poor Wesley.


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## dravot (Oct 3, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> I'd have to agree, I didn't think they were trying to make any sort of real world analogy either. The point was that the ends don't justify the means and that you can't build a Utopia on top of bodies.



I name this land...Corpsetopia!


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## The Grumpy Celt (Oct 3, 2005)

I gotta say I'm on the side of the Alliance on this one. Wipe out a planet or two, create a horde of choatic evil people-eaters, what ever it takes to kick down the hippies, the peace-niks and so forth and create some order in the universe. No sacrifice is too great for order. And it should have been a TPK.


----------



## Rackhir (Oct 3, 2005)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Unrelated Angel Spoiler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unrelated Dark Dungeons Spoiler.



Spoiler



NOOOOOO!! BLACK LEAF!!!!.


----------



## dravot (Oct 3, 2005)

Unrelated musing...how far gone are the Reavers?  They can operate spacecraft, but how good is their maintenance?  Lack of maintenance will kill them sooner rather than later, I'd think.  Do they just hop from ship to ship when they capture them?


----------



## Palantir (Oct 3, 2005)

*Saw it, loved it, seeing it again*

I was very happy with the movie overall. 

As for Joss killing characters... while I know that Mr. Whedon has no problem with killing off main characters, I think that, in this case, it was more that Alan had other projects and couldn't (or wouldn't) guarantee that he would be available for the filming of other movies. I found it interesting that the two characters that were killed off were Book (Glass was never a big sci-fi fan, and (I think) wasn't particularly attached to this project) and Wash (Tudyk probably more movie credits than any of the cast, including I, Robot last year). 

As for looting Miranda... Mal had Serenity rebuilt at the end of the movie. I was in shock over Wash and all, but even through that, I was thinking, "Where did Mal get the money to rebuild his ship?" Maybe Mr. Universe had some old ships laying around that were scavenged? Or maybe there were some Miranda trinkets that were traded... 

I also found it odd that Zoe was the one to break ranks in the final fight with the Reavers. While she did undergo a deep and immediate trauma, she was also the only hardened military veteran of the Unification War on the line. I would have expected one of the less disciplined members of the crew to break a defensive position first. And did anyone else think about what the Reavers must have done to poor Wash's body once the crew abandoned Serenity? *shivers*

Question I had with the Reavers... if they were caused by the drug that was administered, does that mean that their offspring (children born off-world) would NOT be Reavers? Is this a society that will be dead when the last of the children that were on Miranda die?

Those are my observations. Mostly though, I watched in rapt glee as Mr. Whedon brought me one more installment of my favorite BDHs. Serenity, while a bit glitzier, still felt like the rundown home we had all come to know and love throughout the series. My knowledge of the crew from the series only enhanced my enjoyment of the movie, and I eagerly await the next movie (which I promise to watch at least three times in the theater and buy on DVD too). 

Mr. Whedon, if you are reading this, thank you so much for writing a movie for the fans. The plot was wonderful, the characters wonderfully flawed, three-dimensional, and real, and your efforts are very much appreciated. As much as you can, please try not to be hurt or dismayed by the occasional negative review... it's much harder to create than it is to destroy, and those critics haven't created anything to make me give them any respect. They just have a big microphone. Serenity, just like Firefly, is clearly a labor of love, and us Browncoats appreciate your labor. Thank you.

See you in the world.

-Palantir


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## Pielorinho (Oct 3, 2005)

Palantir said:
			
		

> I also found it odd that Zoe was the one to break ranks in the final fight with the Reavers. While she did undergo a deep and immediate trauma, she was also the only hardened military veteran of the Unification War on the line. I would have expected one of the less disciplined members of the crew to break a defensive position first.



I sort of thought that was the point:  Zoe was so devastated by Wash's death that she defied her military training.  Very, very few things could make her do this.  Even watching her husband being tortured by Niska couldn't make her do this.

Daniel


----------



## Rackhir (Oct 3, 2005)

Palantir said:
			
		

> And did anyone else think about what the Reavers must have done to poor Wash's body once the crew abandoned Serenity? *shivers*




Probably not much. The Reavers seemed to loose interest pretty quick in the farmboy when Mel killed him at the begining of the movie. It was made quite clear (I thought) that they were only interested in LIVING prey.



			
				Dravot said:
			
		

> Unrelated musing...how far gone are the Reavers? They can operate spacecraft, but how good is their maintenance? Lack of maintenance will kill them sooner rather than later, I'd think. Do they just hop from ship to ship when they capture them?




This is what bothered me the most about the Reavers as presented. Space is an extremely harsh and unforgiving terrain. Any sort of atmospheric reentry is even more unforgiving. Flawed or inadiquate maintainance tends to be immediately lethal.

Larry Niven in his known space books, had people from earth looked upon almost as children after a fashion, because they were from a planet and enviroment that wouldn't kill you if the littlest thing went wrong. Thus they didn't have the innate caution that helped keep you alive when you were in places less suited to man.


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## Henry (Oct 3, 2005)

Palantir said:
			
		

> Question I had with the Reavers... if they were caused by the drug that was administered, does that mean that their offspring (children born off-world) would NOT be Reavers? Is this a society that will be dead when the last of the children that were on Miranda die?




Remember from the TV series how they make new Reavers... they pick a small percentage of people from the ships they take, and drive 'em crazy - make them watch the rapes, the torture, subject them to the same, and (I guess) then turn them loose to do some of it themselves, to foster bonding. (Cue "Stockholm syndrome," military basic training, etc.) The first Reavers were drugged psychotic loons, but that doesn't mean they don't think.  and the second-gen Reavers are just brainwashed inductees.


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## CarlZog (Oct 3, 2005)

Palantir said:
			
		

> As for Joss killing characters... while I know that Mr. Whedon has no problem with killing off main characters, I think that, in this case, it was more that Alan had other projects and couldn't (or wouldn't) guarantee that he would be available for the filming of other movies.




That's interesting! Here I was thinking how awful he must feel to be the one who got axed out of all the possible future projects this franchise may have to offer. What else is he working on?

On the other hand, given the typecasted fate of the original Star Trek cast, maybe the smart thing for an actor to do IS to run as fast as he can in the opposite direction.   

Carl


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 3, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Something occurred to me at work last night... why didn't the crew loot Miranda? Within a couple of hours they would have netted enough money for all of them to retire...




Who says they didn't? Just because we didn't see it? 

Or that could be the plot for the second movie- Serenity 2: A Fistful of Loot.


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 3, 2005)

dravot said:
			
		

> Unrelated musing...how far gone are the Reavers?  They can operate spacecraft, but how good is their maintenance?  Lack of maintenance will kill them sooner rather than later, I'd think.  Do they just hop from ship to ship when they capture them?




As I recall from the pilot, they don't seem to care much. Seems to me Mal or someone made a comment about them running without shielding around their engine core or something, which would be foolish for anyone sane- which is how they knew it was Reavers that had found them.


----------



## sniffles (Oct 3, 2005)

Palantir said:
			
		

> Question I had with the Reavers... if they were caused by the drug that was administered, does that mean that their offspring (children born off-world) would NOT be Reavers? Is this a society that will be dead when the last of the children that were on Miranda die?
> 
> -Palantir




If the Reavers have children, those children would be raised in the Reaver culture. They would be taught to rape and kill, and that cannibalism is normal. Therefore the Reavers will continue even when all of those who were created by the pax are dead. The Reavers could only be destroyed as a sub-culture if someone took away all their children and raised them in a society free of Reaver influence.


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 3, 2005)

Palantir said:
			
		

> (Glass was never a big sci-fi fan, and (I think) wasn't particularly attached to this project)




Ron Glass, from interviews I've read, absolutely loved the show and the cast. He was apparently in tears at the news of the shows cancellation. 

I know that he had other commitments (philanthropic) that kept his schedule and signing on for the movie on hold for a while, but I never got the impression that he didn't like Firefly/Serenity. 

[EDIT] Also, on Alan Tudyk's possible other commitments, here's a quote from him (from the Fireflymovie MB) about Wash's Journey:



			
				Alan Tudyk said:
			
		

> I really liked [Wash's fate]. I was a fan of it. Even when we did the show, I felt that Wash was a really good character to kill. In my head, I thought two season and then [Joss] should kill me. No one would expect it. I even mentioned it to Joss once, about Wash being a good sympathetic kill. As it works, where it is in the movie, I really like how it raises the stakes for everybody. We've lost two already and people are bleeding and shot and the captain is a mess. Wash's death helps with the feeling that all bets are off. I kind of also liked that it's not one of those deaths where I'm going, "Go on without me! I'll hold 'em off for as long as possible. You save yourselves, I love you sweetheart." Instead, it's "Whoopee, I just landed the spaceship!" Dead. Joss has a talent for sticking large wooden things through people's hearts.






> As for looting Miranda... Mal had Serenity rebuilt at the end of the movie. I was in shock over Wash and all, but even through that, I was thinking, "Where did Mal get the money to rebuild his ship?" Maybe Mr. Universe had some old ships laying around that were scavenged? Or maybe there were some Miranda trinkets that were traded...




The Operative mentions that he allowed the crew to heal and make repairs, so I think it was more to do with Alliance funding than any lootage. 



> I also found it odd that Zoe was the one to break ranks in the final fight with the Reavers. While she did undergo a deep and immediate trauma, she was also the only hardened military veteran of the Unification War on the line.




To me, that was what really underscored just how traumatic it must have been for her. She, of the eternally cool head, decides to chuck it all when the love of her life is killed.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Oct 3, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Just thought I'd throw it out there - US Weekly says in this week's issue that Nathan Fillion "doesn't have a face for movies" ... WTF??




Or at least not for movie POSTERS. I took a look at the poster and asked who the guy was that looked like Charlie Sheen...


----------



## Shadowdancer (Oct 4, 2005)

One of the small things I liked about the movie was, when they were preparing to hold off the Reavers, Jayne and everyone else are all busy moving crates, etc. Zoe is just standing there the whole time, staring at the door and loading her shotgun. Nice contrast, with her as the motionless center of the room and everything else all motion around her.

I also liked the Big Damn Tracking Shot near the start of the movie to introduce the ship and everyone aboard. That was pretty impressive, as long, continuous shots like that are hard to do and require lots of rehearsal. What made this one even more difficult is periodically, the cast and camera had to jolt about as if the ship were encountering turbulence.

As for Book and Walsh, and the topic of sequels: The first time I saw the movie was at the first batch of advance screenings last May in Austin. Ron Glass and Nathan Fillion were at the screening. Afterwards, Ron said both Joss and Nathan had talked to him during filming to say that Book's death in this movie did not mean Book would not be in future movies. There is the possibility of prequels (or at least movies set during the time of the series, or between the end of the series and the movie), or flashbacks, or other things. Ron also said he would be in favor of that, depending on the script.

Ron also said, when asked by someone about Book's past, that the only thing he would reveal is that Book was not a virgin.   

As for Walsh, Nathan basically said that Alan was too much in demand to be able to commit to future projects. Alan had more credits than any of the others -- except Adam Baldwin -- prior to the series (28 Days, A Knight's Tale, Patch Adams, Wonder Boys, Hearts in Atlantis) and afterwards (Dodgeball, I Robot, Into the West). He's an in-demand character actor with a growing portfolio. I also think Nathan didn't like having him around on the set because Alan is funnier than Nathan.   

Like many others, I thought Walsh's death signified a TPK. I thought Joss was going for a Hamlet ending -- everyone on stage is dead. Then when River jumped into the room full of Reavers, I felt she would survive.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 4, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Remember from the TV series how they make new Reavers...




Correction - how they tell us they make Reavers.  We never actually see the process, only the results.  It isn't like we've got a reliable witness who has seen it, now do we?  Maybe it's done by brainwashing.  Maybe they give the guy a good whiff of the Pax.  And maybe it isn't intentionally "done" at all.  Maybe it just happens.


----------



## Pielorinho (Oct 4, 2005)

...or maybe that guy isn't an honest-to-Gosh reaver, but is a guy who has heard the rumors, and who snapped under the horror of watching the atrocities that the real reavers committed, and is now saying, "I'm a Reaver I'm a Reaver I'm a Reaver!" loudly enough in his head that he doesn't have to think about what he's seen.

I really like having a unique and physiological explanation for the Reavers, so that's how it's going to be in my head .

Daniel


----------



## Kesh (Oct 4, 2005)

The Reavers are very far gone. Not only do they mutilate themselves, they run their ships' reactors "hot." Meaning, they're allowing radiation to leak out. It's not clear if that offers any tactical advantage to the ships themselves, but it's a horrific psychological weapon: seeing a ship that's putting out that much radiation coming at you, knowing the crew has to be suicidal to do such a thing...


----------



## Henry (Oct 4, 2005)

RE: The Reaver propogations:

I agree, I'm not proposing that it's the way it happens, but it's just nice to know that there are several plausible explanations on how it's done, so that they're always a distant threat to people on the edge of the system.

And darn it, now the movie's gotten me itching to pick up the Firefly RPG from Sovereign Stone...


----------



## Nareau (Oct 4, 2005)

Richards said:
			
		

> Mal:  "How's she holding up?"
> 
> Zoe:  "She's seen better days, but she'll make it through all right."
> 
> ...



I think he's talking about Zoe, Serenity, the Crew, the show, and River.

I didn't much like the scene where Simon busts River out.  As someone else pointed out, Simon has d4 hitpoints.  He shouldn't be kicking ass.  It seemed really out of character to me, although I understand why they did it.

The Operative really makes me want to throw a Lawful Good villian into my game.  Or maybe a blackguard.

Why did the Alliance gas 30 million people without, I dunno, testing the stuff on chimpanzees in England first?

I love the "I am a leaf on the wind" line.  Especially since he is dead when he lands.

Am I the only one who noticed Buffy's cameo?  Dang, I can't find a picture anywhere.  It's the image from "Welcome to the Hellmouth," and it appears at the end of the Season 1 credits...

Spider

EDIT:  Er, maybe it was season 3.  Still looking for a screenshot.


----------



## danzig138 (Oct 4, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> I sort of thought that was the point:  Zoe was so devastated by Wash's death that she defied her military training.  Very, very few things could make her do this.  Even watching her husband being tortured by Niska couldn't make her do this.
> 
> Daniel



And  you'll note that even though she defied her training, she still stayed relatively cool through the fighting. She wasn't able to completely break from her training. Zoe rocks.


----------



## Xath (Oct 4, 2005)

I read that Ron Glass requested to be killed in the movie because of health issues.


----------



## Nareau (Oct 4, 2005)

OK, it's not as perfect as I'd like...I'll have to wait for the DVD release to show a real comparison.  But these are the shots I'm talking about:

Spider


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## Banshee16 (Oct 4, 2005)

Palantir said:
			
		

> I was very happy with the movie overall.
> 
> As for Joss killing characters... while I know that Mr. Whedon has no problem with killing off main characters, I think that, in this case, it was more that Alan had other projects and couldn't (or wouldn't) guarantee that he would be available for the filming of other movies. I found it interesting that the two characters that were killed off were Book (Glass was never a big sci-fi fan, and (I think) wasn't particularly attached to this project) and Wash (Tudyk probably more movie credits than any of the cast, including I, Robot last year).
> 
> ...




Thankfully (and deservedly so) the movie is getting excellent reviews.  On Rotten Tomatoes, it's at 80%, with 118 reviews, which is incredible in itself for a sci-fi movie.  And IMDB has it at 8.6 with 8004 votes.

Unfortunately, it sure doesn't look like it's doing too well.  $10M isn't a stellar opening weekend.  Maybe people are waiting?  I think some people are waiting, since they haven't seen the show yet.  I've got people at work that I know didn't go, since they're waiting to see the TV show, or weren't sure what the movie was about.

Of course, it would be interesting to see how much more it's pulling in outside of the U.S.

Hopefully it turns around, and makes a good profit, so we can get a second movie.

Banshee


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Oct 4, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Killing Walsh shouldn't have been quite so unexpected. He did the same thing to Doyle at the end of the first season of Angel and for much the same reasons.



Alan Tudyk doesn't have a heroin addiction that makes him massively unreliable, as far as I know.


----------



## Victim (Oct 4, 2005)

The Alliance probably did test the drug - and on humans as well as chimps.  But they probably didn't test the gas the same way they used it.  Testing would be easiest with doses of Pax (like an inhaler), but the people on Miranda were breathing it day in, day out for who knows how long.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Oct 4, 2005)

Given the prominence of the Blue Sun Corporation, and how it seems to have strong ties to the Alliance, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply bypassed the Serenity-verse's equivalent of the FDA by marketing PAX as a non-medicinal sort of drug, without any research into its long-term effects.


----------



## Shadowdancer (Oct 4, 2005)

I was afraid all of the advance screenings would hurt the opening gross of Serenity -- I wonder if that is a contributing factor.

How much money did those screenings take in? Can that total be added to the film's gross? Or did it get counted toward the weekend grosses of the movies which lost a showing to the advance screenings? I know that is how the grosses are handled for sneak previews. But those are completed movies. How do they handle advance screenings of unfinished movies?


----------



## Tetsubo (Oct 4, 2005)

Further thoughts on the movie:

I don't think that Book was an Opertaive. You do not let an Opertive retire. You send out a New Operative to take out an Old Operative. If the New one wins, you have a new man for the job. And if the Old one wins you know that he's fit for duty. I figure that Book was the Control for an Operative.

The Reavers are done. Period. The only reason they had any success was the fact that the Alliance was denying their existence. That is no longer required. Which means the Military can step in now. A small Military unit caught in an ambush took out an entire Reaver fleet and completed their mission (assist the Opertaive in the capture of the Tams). The Reavers just became a live fire exercise for the Alliance Fleet.

The Reavers can't continue as a functioning group anyway. They are a disorganized lot of psychopaths. Barely able to maintain their ships and personal firearms. Some can't even do that, resorting to hand weapons and primitive missile weapons. In addition I believe that they are all males. They rape, skin and kill anyone that isn't a Reaver. They are not parent material. You could never get them all to agree to NOT eat the small, helpless infant.

I can see the Alliance weaponizing the Pax gas though. Here's why:

You have a planet of citizens that have decided they don't need the Alliance. The Alliance takes a group of political prisoners (I'm sure they have planets full of them) and exposes them to Pax. They put the new Reavers into ships and "dump" them near the planet of disagreeable citizens. The Fleet waits a few hours after the SOS call goes out about the Reaver raid. The Fleet flies in and "saves" the day. The grateful citizens don't mind having an Allinace base built on their world suddenly... Problem solved. If any Reavers get away, the Alliance detonates the bombs built into their ships. Bye-bye Reavers. The Reavers will become a tool of the Alliance.

But then I'm a bitter, cynical old man...


----------



## Xath (Oct 4, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> You have a planet of citizens that have decided they don't need the Alliance. The Alliance takes a group of political prisoners (I'm sure they have planets full of them) and exposes them to Pax. They put the new Reavers into ships and "dump" them near the planet of disagreeable citizens. The Fleet waits a few hours after the SOS call goes out about the Reaver raid. The Fleet flies in and "saves" the day. The grateful citizens don't mind having an Allinace base built on their world suddenly... Problem solved. If any Reavers get away, the Alliance detonates the bombs built into their ships. Bye-bye Reavers. The Reavers will become a tool of the Alliance.





But remember, only 1/2 of one percent of people exposed to Pax become reavers.  The only reason there were a substantial number of reavers to start with was because they gassed an entire planet.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Oct 4, 2005)

Spider said:
			
		

> I didn't much like the scene where Simon busts River out.  As someone else pointed out, Simon has d4 hitpoints.  He shouldn't be kicking ass.  It seemed really out of character to me, although I understand why they did it.
> 
> The Operative really makes me want to throw a Lawful Good villian into my game.  Or maybe a blackguard.




Think about what Simon really did.  He bluffed his way into a facility after spending a ton of money on a uniform, credentials, and presumably the layout of the place.  He set off a stun bomb.  He ran like heck to a pickup waiting in an air shaft.  He paid somebody else to freeze River so he could smuggle her out unnoticed.  All you really need for this is tons of cash, a willingness to break the law, and the ability to bluff with an, "I'm in charge here," attitude.

The hard part would have been finding out enough info without tipping off River's captors that somebody was nosing around.  But, as the Operative said, their sin was hubris.

At best, I would peg the Operative as Lawful Neutral.  He acknowledge he did evil, but he was doing it because he believed in a higher purpose.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Oct 4, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> But remember, only 1/2 of one percent of people exposed to Pax become reavers.  The only reason there were a substantial number of reavers to start with was because they gassed an entire planet.




I heard 10% of the population, which would have meant about 3 million psychos.  Presumably, a bunch would have been too far gone to run a spaceship, but you could safely estimate at least a million possible reavers.  One would guess that reavers run on a pack mentality.  At least some of them also seem to be able to make simple repairs to equipment, since they clearly cannibalize ships and settlement equipment in addition to the settlers.


----------



## Jeremy (Oct 4, 2005)

Having seen it twice now, I believe it was approximately a 10th of a percent of the population that had the opposite reaction.

So not 10%, but 1/10 of 1%.


----------



## Rykion (Oct 4, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> The Reavers are done. Period. The only reason they had any success was the fact that the Alliance was denying their existence. That is no longer required. Which means the Military can step in now. A small Military unit caught in an ambush took out an entire Reaver fleet and completed their mission (assist the Opertaive in the capture of the Tams). The Reavers just became a live fire exercise for the Alliance Fleet.




That "small military unit" was a fleet of Alliance ships.  It sure looked like the Alliance suffered massive losses in their victory over the Reavers.  I don't suspect that they wish to get thousands of their soldiers killed fighting an enemy that seems to prey on Frontier Worlds they don't care about.

The Reavers' ships looked like wrecks, but all had weaponry that didn't look like standard equipment.  The Reavers seem to be decent engineers for crazies that don't care.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Oct 4, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> The Reavers can't continue as a functioning group anyway. They are a disorganized lot of psychopaths. Barely able to maintain their ships and personal firearms. Some can't even do that, resorting to hand weapons and primitive missile weapons. In addition I believe that they are all males. They rape, skin and kill anyone that isn't a Reaver. They are not parent material. You could never get them all to agree to NOT eat the small, helpless infant.




yeah, thats about the long and short of it. Goes back to the old D&D question of inherently evil races. You just can't have a species with is 1) without empathy and 2) mammals. The two won't work together. Reavers could only reproduce by contagion, the biological method just isn't happening.


----------



## Nareau (Oct 4, 2005)

Thinking more on the film, I kinda have to wonder how much it was influenced by the abusive relationship Firefly had with Fox.  

For one thing, the tagline for the film is "Can't stop the signal".  The basic plot is that a bunch of intrepid heroes are fighting against the establishment to broadcast their message.  Maybe I'm reading way too much into it...but how many sci-fi movies have you seen where the heroes win by broadcasting a video?

Even if it has nothing to do with Fox, I still really like the "winning conditions" in the movie:  they destroyed the big bad without killing him, and they dealt a huge blow against the Alliance without firing a shot (more or less).

I must admit that I was slightly disappointed by the film at first...but now I can't get it out of my head.  The more I think about it, the more I like it.

Spider


----------



## Nareau (Oct 4, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> yeah, thats about the long and short of it. Goes back to the old D&D question of inherently evil races. You just can't have a species with is 1) without empathy and 2) mammals. The two won't work together. Reavers could only reproduce by contagion, the biological method just isn't happening.



I don't think the Reavers are inherently "evil".  They've just had their agression turned up to 11.  I'm sure they can still feel empathy, when they're not eating people.

Given the 10% figure (that's what I heard, too), there should have been 3 million Reavers at one time.  Given the number of ships in orbit, it wouldn't surprise me if there were less than 1,000 left.

Spider


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## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 4, 2005)

I heard 1/10 or 1/2 of one percent..  I fall in the "reavers can't reproduce" camp.  The Reaver phenomenon would burn itself out after a period of time - I can't imagine that even if they can draw in new members that they can do it quickly enough to replace those dying in battle, old age (eventually) or due to radically poor ship maintenance/radiation poisoning.  I'm imagining about 150,000 Reavers to begin with.


----------



## CarlZog (Oct 4, 2005)

Whoops. Never mind. I need to pay more attention to older pages before responding to the latest post.  

I thought it was 10 percent too.

Carl


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## Jeremy (Oct 4, 2005)

Couple things...  I doubt every single Reaver followed Mal.  Just the immediate ones around that very small section of sky he was in.  Maybe 30-40 ships.

There are almost certainly ships that weren't just floating about broadcasting the screams of innocents around Miranda.  Ships off raiding somewhere, etc.

Reavers are weird.  Some use ship to ship grapples and send themselves and their enemies spinning out of control.  Some use very large single shot projectiles that kill my favorite characters.  Some use EMP beam cannons that can fire multiple times and have pretty wide attack spreads.  Some use ship-to-ship bladed weapons.  And some just use gargantuan ships to plow into their foes.

I wonder how that last one works in and outside of atmo...


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Oct 4, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> But then I'm a bitter, cynical old man...




People don't deserve freedom. If they did, they would have it any way.

In any event, I don't think all the cloak and dagger would be required. Simply use the gas to "nuke" the planet, throughly taking care of the population; those that do not lie down and die will becoming lunatics and will be dealt with once they have cleared off the planet. This way most of the infrastructure of the planet (buildings, roads, equipment, etc.) will be both intact and inplace. 

Why bother with subterfuge?


----------



## Palantir (Oct 4, 2005)

*Repairs to Serenity at the end*

I saw the movie again last night. Looks like the Operative actually gave them what they needed to patch the ship up again. Kinda strange, but then so is the Operative! 

Did anyone take note of the Pax timeline? Assuming that the movie takes place pretty close on the heels of the series, the Unification War took place six-eight years ago... but the experiment on Miranda occurred around twelve years ago. That means that the Alliance was experimenting with Pax either right before or during the UWar. Why would the Alliance be experimenting with a Utopia drug if they weren't already thinking about how to use it against opposition? 

The Pax's failure may have been why the war started in the first place. Perhaps the Alliance planned to gas the Independent worlds into being happy and compliant with Allied rule. When that didn't work, they had to conquer the old-fashioned way.

Anyway, just a theory with no hope of being proven... at least until the sequel.


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## WayneLigon (Oct 4, 2005)

Spider said:
			
		

> Why did the Alliance gas 30 million people without, I dunno, testing the stuff on chimpanzees in England first?




I'm sure they did. We find out all the time about unforseen side effects of drugs once they enter human testing. Mice and monkeys are good for weeding out the bad physical effects but any psychological effects are going to show up only in people.

Or, another thing: the Alliance is both arrogant and callous. Once they had preliminary trials, they might well have just pushed it out into human testing just to see what happened. We have animal test after animal test because we have laws that dictate it be so. Without those laws, you get things like the Tuskegee experiments.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 4, 2005)

Whew, just got through reading this thread...

My musings and comments:

Loved the movie and knew people here, who can appreciate the tension added by a party members death, would not be whining about it incessantly, like a lot of people are doing on the film boards.  I didn't jump at Wash's death, but I had inadvertently picked up a spoiler on that, so I was prepared.  I do still have the nail marks my wife gave me on my leg when it happened.

Reavers - read on the movies boards that Joss admitted to a different origin of the Reavers in the movie than he had in mind for the series.  Might explain the difference between "Bushwacked" and the film.

The Operative - I don't think he knew exactly waht he was supposed to be stopping from getting out.  Once he saw and unserstood, his belief in his cause was stripped and he began to question himself.  I could see him _not_ killing himself for failure, as he is suddenly unsure of that sense of honor he had might come from the same place as his belief.

The future - I personally think this movie was done to put an end to the series and open the door for future movies.  By killing all their previous contacts, they don't have to worry about continuity in that area.  By killing Book, that story no longer has to be told (as Book himself told us in the film when Mal said he needed to tell it one day).  The story of River is open to further visiting, but no longer is the burning central thread it was at the cancellation of the series.  The only real mystery left from the series is the supposed dark secret of Inara, and that has really only been speculated about by fans, never really been openly alluded to.  So with this movie, Joss is free to tell whatever story he wants in any future sequels (oh, please let it be so).


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## BiggusGeekus (Oct 4, 2005)

Spider said:
			
		

> Thinking more on the film, I kinda have to wonder how much it was influenced by the abusive relationship Firefly had with Fox.
> 
> For one thing, the tagline for the film is "Can't stop the signal".  The basic plot is that a bunch of intrepid heroes are fighting against the establishment to broadcast their message.  Maybe I'm reading way too much into it...but how many sci-fi movies have you seen where the heroes win by broadcasting a video?




And the guy to help them do it was Mr. Universe.  Serentity was released by Universal Studios.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 4, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> And the guy to help them do it was Mr. Universe.  Serentity was released by Universal Studios.




Yeah, but the Alliance killed Mr. Universe.  Does Joss know something?  Is Universal going to be taken over by Fox?  Somebody call my stockbroker!


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## Broccli_Head (Oct 4, 2005)

What television stations does Universal own?

Probably wont get it, but woudl rather see _Firefly/Serenity_ continue as a television series. The movie medium seems too clipped. 

I will problaby go and look for the rpg though.


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## Nareau (Oct 4, 2005)

Orson Scott Card has reviewed Serenity:
http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2005-09-30-extra.shtml

Spider

EDIT:  Wow...I bet Joss is grinning ear-to-ear at that review.  OSC compares him to Shakespeare.  Several times.


----------



## TanisFrey (Oct 4, 2005)

I saw it Sat night.  Got my Brother to take me for my Birthday.

LOVED IT

I guessed several plot points in advance at spots.

Like the Miranda being the place where the Allience makes the Reavers.  I was close.

River Kicking A!@#$%#$!, yup that was right.

I think that River and others are being made by the Allience are being made as, in part at least, Anti-Reaver troops.

It would not suprise that the Allience is still after the Tams for something else in River's mind.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Oct 4, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> The future - I personally think this movie was done to put an end to the series and open the door for future movies.



I hadn't thought about that, but that's a fascinating theory, and makes sense to me, too, now that you mention it.  I can still see how they would try to do a TV show, but what they did certainly leaves it open as you describe.

Warrior Poet


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## Hand of Evil (Oct 4, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I heard 1/10 or 1/2 of one percent..  I fall in the "reavers can't reproduce" camp.  The Reaver phenomenon would burn itself out after a period of time - I can't imagine that even if they can draw in new members that they can do it quickly enough to replace those dying in battle, old age (eventually) or due to radically poor ship maintenance/radiation poisoning.  I'm imagining about 150,000 Reavers to begin with.



Unless their blood became a toxic or they pumped bad air onto ships when they captured it, one or two people here or there... :\  You also have to wonder why the reavers continued to be effected by the PAX, they left the planet, did this alter their DNA, did they become carriers.  Why did they not stop being effected after a period of time?


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 4, 2005)

Spider said:
			
		

> Orson Scott Card has reviewed Serenity:
> http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2005-09-30-extra.shtml
> 
> Spider
> ...




So i wonder if OSC is going to ask Mr. Whedon to help him convert _Ender's Game_ to a movie?

though maybe that is already being done.


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 4, 2005)

Universal owns UPN. Hence the U.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 4, 2005)

In terms of a return to TV, I know that Fox owns the broadcast rights for another six or seven years.  That means someone would have to buy the rights from Fox (since Joss has said he would never work with Fox Television again), increasing the costs of producing the show (I doubt Fox will give it up cheaply at this point).  I don't think a return to TV is very likely, as much as I would love it since they can tell much more intricate stories.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Oct 4, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> In terms of a return to TV, I know that Fox owns the broadcast rights for another six or seven years.  That means someone would have to buy the rights from Fox (since Joss has said he would never work with Fox Television again), increasing the costs of producing the show (I doubt Fox will give it up cheaply at this point).  I don't think a return to TV is very likely, as much as I would love it since they can tell much more intricate stories.



That is why some say he desolved Mutant Enemy, because it freed him up to procede with Serenity (not Firefly), as owner of the characters/world/story and not as partner to FOX of the show.


----------



## Rykion (Oct 4, 2005)

The person in the transmission mentioned 1/10th of 1 percent became aggressive instead of lying down.  I specifically listened the 2nd time I saw the movie because I and a friend disagreed.  I originally thought 10% percent too, but that was not what the person said.  With 30 million people, that is 30,000 Reavers.  If they don't reproduce/convert, they will not last long.


----------



## Tetsubo (Oct 4, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Unless their blood became a toxic or they pumped bad air onto ships when they captured it, one or two people here or there... :\  You also have to wonder why the reavers continued to be effected by the PAX, they left the planet, did this alter their DNA, did they become carriers.  Why did they not stop being effected after a period of time?




Some chemicals can have long term, permenant effects on the victims. This is seen in the real world. Look at Love Canal.


----------



## Tetsubo (Oct 4, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> But remember, only 1/2 of one percent of people exposed to Pax become reavers.  The only reason there were a substantial number of reavers to start with was because they gassed an entire planet.




Right. Which is why I mentioned that Pax would have to be weaponized. I. E. turned into a chemical that ALWAYS created a Reaver.


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 4, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> That is why some say he desolved Mutant Enemy, because it freed him up to procede with Serenity (not Firefly), as owner of the characters/world/story and not as partner to FOX of the show.




Do you mean he dissolved the company? Because as near as I can tell, not only is it still a viable production company, but it's the company that is going to be producing Wonder Woman.

I think a lot of the people who worked with ME have moved on to other things (understandably) but this is the first I've heard of ME being defunct.


----------



## Zweihänder (Oct 4, 2005)

WingOver said:
			
		

> Wash's death was unfortunate, but I really think it added a lot to the movie.  It was so abrupt, catching him in mid-sentence.  It just seemed so rude.  Damn you, Joss!
> 
> Then Simon gets hit, and the Operative gets Mal.  I swear I was on the edge of my seat the whole last 30 minutes of that movie.  Awesome.




Oh man, I know what you mean.  I was thinking at that point, Jayne might have been right, that he and only he would make it out of there.  That would have been hilarious.  Tragic, but also hilarious.


----------



## Banshee16 (Oct 4, 2005)

Victim said:
			
		

> The Alliance probably did test the drug - and on humans as well as chimps.  But they probably didn't test the gas the same way they used it.  Testing would be easiest with doses of Pax (like an inhaler), but the people on Miranda were breathing it day in, day out for who knows how long.




Testing on chimps, or even humans for that matter has limited effectiveness anyways.  Usually test groups can deliver statistically significant results, but how many drugs were released onto the market, and it was only when millions of people started using them, that there was a sample large enough to start seeing negative effects?

I know that drug (don't remember the name) that was taken by mothers and resulted in babies with birth defects like misshapen limbs etc. is a good example.

Pax could have been similar...

Banshee


----------



## Pielorinho (Oct 5, 2005)

Another point about the reavers:  we know next to nothing about their activities when they're not raiding planets.  For all we know, there was one specific reaver who established dominance, who told everyone else that they must band together in order to get tasty tasty meals of flesh, who instituted religious rituals of self-scarification, who organizes raiding parties, and so forth.  They could be a loosely-organized army, for all we know:  we never hear the reavers speaking, we never see their living quarters, we have no idea what they're like when they're not raiding people.

Now *there* would be a grim second movie.

Daniel


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## Nareau (Oct 5, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Another point about the reavers:  we know next to nothing about their activities when they're not raiding planets.




I bet they sit around their spaceships, playing checkers and drinking Shasta orange sodas.

Spider


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## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 5, 2005)

Spider said:
			
		

> I bet they sit around their spaceships, playing checkers and drinking Shasta orange sodas.
> 
> Spider




You don't know what you are talking about.  I have it on good authority that its Fanta they drink.


----------



## Pielorinho (Oct 5, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> You don't know what you are talking about.  I have it on good authority that its Fanta they drink.



The funny thing is, now that Fanta song is going through my head, and I sympathize with the Reavers.

Daniel


----------



## KaosDevice (Oct 5, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Given the prominence of the Blue Sun Corporation, and how it seems to have strong ties to the Alliance, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply bypassed the Serenity-verse's equivalent of the FDA by marketing PAX as a non-medicinal sort of drug, without any research into its long-term effects.




This reminds me of my one, one minor annoyance with the film. There was not a wiff, jot or tiddle of the Blue Sun corporation in the film. After making such a big deal of them through out the series and then to have them be completely absent bugged me. Hopefully that would be the fodder for a second film.


----------



## PhoenixDarkDirk (Oct 5, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I know that drug (don't remember the name) that was taken by mothers and resulted in babies with birth defects like misshapen limbs etc. is a good example.




I belive that was "thalidomide."

Speaking of changing the subject, _Serenity_ was the first movie I ever saw on opening day.


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## Umbran (Oct 5, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> You don't know what you are talking about.  I have it on good authority that its Fanta they drink.




Nah.  Nehi Grape.  Warm.  

(A virtual cookie to anyone who gets the reference)


----------



## Dagger75 (Oct 5, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Nah.  Nehi Grape.  Warm.
> 
> (A virtual cookie to anyone who gets the reference)




Isn't that what Radar drank.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Oct 5, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> At best, I would peg the Operative as Lawful Neutral.  He acknowledge he did evil, but he was doing it because he believed in a higher purpose.



It doesn't matter a jot that the Operative believes he is doing what is right and necessary to make a better world - the man orders the slaughter of innocents to provoke his quarry out of hiding. He's Evil, through and through.

Motivation doesn't matter in D&D. The Operative is utterly unapologetic, presumably because he is honest enough to know that he wouldn't mean it if he did express remorse. He knows he is a monster - but that knowledge doesn't affect his fanatical resolve.

Only by showing him the possible consequences of his dreams can his confidence be shattered - and without perfect faith that what he is doing is necessary, he can't do what he does.

I think it's interesting, because it's clear that the Operative isn't broken by appeals to morality. He murders children - as horrific as they are, Reavers themselves can only repulse him because their slaughter is without purpose. It's the *Lawful* side of the Operative that is undermined by the Pax video; he is rendered incapable of believing that his society's ordered, controlling way of doing things inevitably leads to a better world, because he is confronted with the evidence that it does not.

The Operative's weakness is his limited thinking - throughout the film he is shown to be outsmarted by unorthodox confrontations and maneuvering. He didn't expect Mal to bring the beacon to Inara's place, he didn't anticipate the flash bomb Inara set off, he never dreamed that Mal would lead a fleet of Reaver ships to Mr. Universe's planet and reverse the Alliance ambush, and he *clearly* never considered that perhaps the Alliance's grand plan for making a better world could possibly be fallible.

In some ways he reminds me of Khan in _Star Trek II_ - he is defeated by opponents who think in more dimensions than he's ever contemplated (and when it comes to Khan, "dimensions" is literal). He relies on predicting his opponents' behaviour - but he lacks the imagination to do so. He's so fixated on his vision of the future that he fails to see the full depth of the present.


----------



## Jeremy (Oct 5, 2005)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> This reminds me of my one, one minor annoyance with the film. There was not a wiff, jot or tiddle of the Blue Sun corporation in the film. After making such a big deal of them through out the series and then to have them be completely absent bugged me. Hopefully that would be the fodder for a second film.




I believe when the Operative is viewing the feed of River's escape, you get a brief flash of two company men monitoring the situation.  One checks the screen with their usual expression while another one rolls his chair into frame to see what is going on.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 5, 2005)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> I believe when the Operative is viewing the feed of River's escape, you get a brief flash of two company men monitoring the situation.  One checks the screen with their usual expression while another one rolls his chair into frame to see what is going on.




I saw that, too, but they didn't have the characteeristic blue gloves, so I'm not sure who they were supposed to be.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 5, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I saw that, too, but they didn't have the characteeristic blue gloves, so I'm not sure who they were supposed to be.




I don't think we are ever told anywhere that Blue Sun = blue gloves.


----------



## Jeremy (Oct 5, 2005)

Yeah.  Those are the scary Blue Sun cleaners.  They take care of messes.  Kinda like the Operative does for the Interplanetary Parliament.

They don't make guys like that sit watching feeds all day.

'You sending the Wolf?'
'Oh you feel better now #$*%(#($%@&*?'
'%&#*, *$&#$ that's all you had to say.'

Edit - Hmm..  Kinda loses it's relavence with grandma filter.  Ah well.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 5, 2005)

I thought there were a few small Blue Sun logos in places.  I'll try and pay attention for them this weekend when I see it again.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Oct 5, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Do you mean he dissolved the company? Because as near as I can tell, not only is it still a viable production company, but it's the company that is going to be producing Wonder Woman.
> 
> I think a lot of the people who worked with ME have moved on to other things (understandably) but this is the first I've heard of ME being defunct.



There was a news item/thread on it earlier this year (I will see if I can find it) but it may have been just the television side of the company.


----------



## Hijinks (Oct 5, 2005)

> I also found it odd that Zoe was the one to break ranks in the final fight with the Reavers. While she did undergo a deep and immediate trauma, she was also the only hardened military veteran of the Unification War on the line. I would have expected one of the less disciplined members of the crew to break a defensive position first




I agree with what's been said about this, but also I think this was a feint.  Joss Whedon wanted us to think that she was going kamikaze and was surrendering to death by Reaver.  Then she takes a hit and crawls back to the humans.  I know I, for one, was sitting there thinking "well, there goes Zoe *sadness*"


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## ThirdWizard (Oct 5, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> I agree with what's been said about this, but also I think this was a feint.  Joss Whedon wanted us to think that she was going kamikaze and was surrendering to death by Reaver.  Then she takes a hit and crawls back to the humans.  I know I, for one, was sitting there thinking "well, there goes Zoe *sadness*"




My thought was that she wanted to die, but after being hit, instinct kicked in and she went back to safety.

But, yeah, total fake out. Zoe's going to die! Kaylee's going to die! Simon's going to die! River's going to die! Jayne is going to live.


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## Mage of Spellford (Oct 5, 2005)

Awesome movie!

Did anyone think that the planet Miranda was Earth? When River glanced down through the vid screen in her desk the image displayed was a blue planet with a single large moon. 

When I saw that I thought that the secret might have been that the alliance had destroyed Earth,  rather than it being used up.


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## ecliptic (Oct 6, 2005)

Earth existed hundreds of years ago, so no it wouldn't be Earth.


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## Shadowdancer (Oct 6, 2005)

I thought Jayne at one point was wearing another Blue Sun T-Shirt (to replace the one River sliced up), but I could be mistaken.


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## Dark Jezter (Oct 6, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> But, yeah, total fake out. Zoe's going to die! Kaylee's going to die! Simon's going to die! River's going to die! Jayne is going to live.




My reaction was slightly different.  I kept thinking "Please don't let Jayne die.  In fact, let everybody else survive... except for Inara."


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## Pielorinho (Oct 6, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> But, yeah, total fake out. Zoe's going to die! Kaylee's going to die! Simon's going to die! River's going to die! Jayne is going to live.



He might!

Daniel


----------



## Hijinks (Oct 6, 2005)

> let everybody else survive... except for Inara




What are people's issues with Inara?  I don't particularly like or dislike her, she's just a love interest for Mal, in my opinion.  I'd prefer for him to hook up with Zoe (after a long grieving period on her part, of course) but I think they're too alike.  Inara and Mal are polar opposites; softness versus stone cold hard skin, forgiveness versus mercilessness, love versus war.


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## RangerWickett (Oct 6, 2005)

Inara looks surprisingly like my friend Courtney. A bit more voluptuous, perhaps. Anyhoo, I'm a fan of her.

Inara, I mean. Of course.


----------



## Fedifensor (Oct 6, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Killing Walsh shouldn't have been quite so unexpected. He did the same thing to Doyle at the end of the first season of Angel and for much the same reasons. Though it made Walsh's death no less, shocking, effective or sad.




I disagree.  Doyle's death was a heroic death, where he chose to die to save everyone else.

Wash died for shock value, nothing more.  I've watched most of Buffy, all of Angel, and Firefly several times over, and I like Joss as a writer.  But I really hate this tendency of him to kill a character simply for shock value.  Especially when that character showcased something extremely rare in both movies and television - a person in a committed relationship that doesn't cheat on his partner, even when tempted.  He also brought a necessary lightheartedness to the crew - something that was utilized extremely well in the series.

Book's death was also annoying to me, but for a different reason.  In addition to the already-mentioned fact that Book lived long enough to give a long death scene (heck, about as long as the entirity of his non-dying screen time) but not long enough to be revived by a competent medic, he died with his story untold.  That bugs me - there was significant build-up in the series that Book was the man with a mystery past, only to have it fall flat with his death in the movie.

I'll still give the movie an 8 out of 10, but I'm docking Joss 1.5 points for killing Wash, and another half point for Book.


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Oct 6, 2005)

Wash's death was pointless and meaningless, just thrown in for shock factor.  It added nothing to the story.  It was a meaningless death...

Book, on the other hand, had meaning.  It was showing just how far the Operative was willing to go to get at the crew.  Killing all their friends who would help hide them.

Other than that, the movie was great.  I can't say I watched the TV show when it was on, though I knew about it (hey, it interferred with game night!  D&D or Firefly, what would you choose?)...  But I do have a question.  What purpose did Inara serve?  Why was she part of the crew?  What did she bring to the table?


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Oct 6, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Earth existed hundreds of years ago, so no it wouldn't be Earth.




What would that have to do with them screwing up Earth?  As I remember, the Human race left Earth because it became over populated.  So why couldn't those who were left behind on Earth be part of this messed up experiment that went terribly wrong?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2005)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> What would that have to do with them screwing up Earth?  As I remember, the Human race left Earth because it became over populated.  So why couldn't those who were left behind on Earth be part of this messed up experiment that went terribly wrong?




The human race left Earth hundreds of years ago. "Earth That Was" is practically legend.

That fact is, IIRC, more heavily implied in the series than the movie, but even the movie made the implication.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2005)

And I have no problem with "pointless" death in movies like this. Why? Because sometimes people die pointlessly.

I loved the character of Wash. I'm sorry he's gone. But I do not, in any way, feel that Joss was "in the wrong" for killing him. It added to the tension for a lot of people, myself included. But even if it had not, it was perfectly appropriate for the events that were happening at the time.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Oct 6, 2005)

I really, really don't think Wash's death was 'just for shock factor'. I'd say that's a cop out excuse, really. Wash's death DOES serve a purpose, albiet one that may very well be setting up something more in the series(movies, TV, whatever). With Wash's death, you change characters.

EVERYONE becomes different after that, and then the risk goes up 100% when you realize that these people are not immune like most heroes in stories are. Not only does it push the risk factor up and heighten tension, but it also means that Zoe, Mal, et all will be extremely different people afterwards. Sure, we don't have much of an afterwards(which is why it feels like a good set up for more), but what we DO have is the fight where you really see this effect and change its had on people.

It DID have meaning, but not in the same direct way that Book's death did.

Honestly, though, I'm glad Joss isn't afraid to kill characters. Too often in movies the main characters are immune to death. Its become too common over the years and it makes watching movies far too predictable. That risk of death is something that isn't so common these days, and its a breath of fresh air. In fact, I think its one of the BEST parts about the movie which really makes it stand out.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Oct 6, 2005)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> What purpose did Inara serve?  Why was she part of the crew?  What did she bring to the table?




Inara is the only member of the cast that I don't care for at all.  It seemed that her only purpose in the show was to look pretty and act as a possible love interest for Mal.  She was easily the least interesting member of Serenity's crew both in terms of background and personality.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Oct 6, 2005)

Inara in the series was one the character who showed how different their society was from ours, that they're values were different.  She's the 'cultured' one (along with Simon) and the rest of the crew isn't.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 6, 2005)

Wash's death serves so many purposes.

It is done to give a sense of urgency to the film. To make you worry that ANY or ALL of them will die in the finale. It makes you sit at the edge of your seat.

It is done to show realism. If you do crazy suicide missions like this, sometimes you die. 
It makes you believe that this is a real. Not another happily ever after fairy tale.

It is done to make you feel emotion. Very few movies actually affect the audience, and many Firefly fans cried for Wash. 

And most importantly it is done because Wash's character arc was over.

On the series, he was the normal guy. He wasn't in the war, but he married into this strange "family" and found a home. But he always felt inferior, he was the comic-relief, and the pilot nothing more.  He wasn't a soldier, he wasn't a hero, and he was definitely treated as a second-class crew member. 
In War Stories this all comes out and is mostly resolved. His problems with Mal and Zoe's relationship are settled.  He is at peace with his role. 
In the movie, he finally gets his chance to be the hero. To be their equal. To prove to them that he belongs. He is a leaf on the wind.

Joss knew he needed to do all these things. 
Make people feel, make people believe, make people sit at the edge of their seats.

Joss knew he was ending Wash's character arc.

And he tied everything together so suddenly, so brutally, so beautifully, that many people are so emotional about it that they're angry about it.

This could very well be the best and most complete death scene ever.  It works on so many levels.


----------



## Shadowdancer (Oct 6, 2005)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> Inara in the series was one the character who showed how different their society was from ours, that they're values were different.  She's the 'cultured' one (along with Simon) and the rest of the crew isn't.




Inara (on the series at least) also was a sort of ambassador for the ship since she was the most respectable member of the crew. Another way that Joss shows how different the Firefly 'Verse is different from our own. The irony that a "licensed companion" (basically a legal prostitute) is more respectable than a cargo ship's captain and crew.

I have no problem with Inara. I like her character.

Miranda couldn't be Earth because a) Earth is in a whole 'nother solar system and b) Earth got used up. No more natural resources. There may be a few people left, but in the 500 years since the big exodus, they probably died off.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Oct 6, 2005)

Shadowdancer said:
			
		

> Inara (on the series at least) also was a sort of ambassador for the ship since she was the most respectable member of the crew. Another way that Joss shows how different the Firefly 'Verse is different from our own. The irony that a "licensed companion" (basically a legal prostitute) is more respectable than a cargo ship's captain and crew.
> 
> I have no problem with Inara. I like her character.
> 
> Miranda couldn't be Earth because a) Earth is in a whole 'nother solar system and b) Earth got used up. No more natural resources. There may be a few people left, but in the 500 years since the big exodus, they probably died off.




Exactly. Inara gives, or gave crediblity to the crew. I really liked the episode where she ended up helping with the heist to steal the gun.
Remember also that Inara is more then just a two bit hooker. Her kind receives actual training in body language and manipulation, communications, etc. She was able to read Mals "wife" like a book.

I think she's a very valuable part of the crew. I'm glad the way the movie ended she decided to stay (despite not actually saying so). Besides, she was pretty to look at!


----------



## Nareau (Oct 6, 2005)

This thread has gone on too long without someone trying to stat-out the characters.  Did someone already do a thread like that, and I missed it?  Or are we simply being direlect in our duty to be obsessively geeky?

If it hasn't been done in recent memory, how about we stat out the crew as 32-piont-buy 10th-level D&D 3.5 characters?

Spider


----------



## Storm Raven (Oct 6, 2005)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> But I do have a question.  What purpose did Inara serve?  Why was she part of the crew?  What did she bring to the table?




She brought money and respectability.


----------



## Fedifensor (Oct 6, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> Wash's death serves so many purposes.
> 
> It is done to give a sense of urgency to the film. To make you worry that ANY or ALL of them will die in the finale. It makes you sit at the edge of your seat.



In other words, shock value.  



> It is done to show realism. If you do crazy suicide missions like this, sometimes you die.
> It makes you believe that this is a real. Not another happily ever after fairy tale.



Yes, realism.  Realism that a reaver ship not only specifically targeted a ship that was unpowered and obviously going to crash (which would have been a no-survivor crash had Wash not activated the backups at the last second), but followed through said unpowered dive closely enough to shoot a grapple at it a mere 10 seconds after it crashed.

No, realism would have had someone die in the gun battle on the ground.  Having everyone survive that wasn't very realistic.



> It is done to make you feel emotion. Very few movies actually affect the audience, and many Firefly fans cried for Wash.



I didn't cry...I didn't really have time to cry, even if that was my inclination.  My comment in the theater was, "that was lame," a feeling that remained in the background as I watched Zoe do her ice queen/death wish thing.



> And most importantly it is done because Wash's character arc was over.
> 
> On the series, he was the normal guy. He wasn't in the war, but he married into this strange "family" and found a home. But he always felt inferior, he was the comic-relief, and the pilot nothing more.  He wasn't a soldier, he wasn't a hero, and he was definitely treated as a second-class crew member.
> In War Stories this all comes out and is mostly resolved. His problems with Mal and Zoe's relationship are settled.  He is at peace with his role.
> In the movie, he finally gets his chance to be the hero. To be their equal. To prove to them that he belongs. He is a leaf on the wind.



And apparently, he's not needed because River can probably pilot the ship as good as him, if not better.  As far as his story - resolving his past does not mean his character arc is over.  Using that argument, Zoe should have been killed a long time ago, and River should have been killed by the Reavers.



> Joss knew he needed to do all these things.
> Make people feel, make people believe, make people sit at the edge of their seats.



No, he really didn't.  Killing Book showed he was willing to kill characters.  The more likely explaination was mentioned earlier in this thread - the actor couldn't commit to future projects, so Joss wrote him out.



> And he tied everything together so suddenly, so brutally, so beautifully, that many people are so emotional about it that they're angry about it.
> 
> This could very well be the best and most complete death scene ever.  It works on so many levels.



I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  Dying from an unexpected chest wound delivered by Reavers who somehow chose to follow a ship in uncontrolled free-fall and get in firing range a few seconds after the ship crashed does strike me as beautiful.  It was an obvious writing-out of the character, with minimal recognition of his death afterwards - a 30 second gravesite scene shared between the three characters that died, and about two lines of dialogue.


----------



## Rykion (Oct 6, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> My thought was that she wanted to die, but after being hit, instinct kicked in and she went back to safety.




Actually, Zoe went down.  The others went out and dragged her back to the barricade.  I don't remember her ever trying to return to them.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 6, 2005)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> Dying from an unexpected chest wound delivered by Reavers who somehow chose to follow a ship in uncontrolled free-fall and get in firing range a few seconds after the ship crashed does strike me as beautiful.




You keep wondering why the Reavers would do something like this. What has caused you to think that the Reavers would generally behave in a rational or sensible manner?


----------



## Dagger75 (Oct 6, 2005)

Spider said:
			
		

> This thread has gone on too long without someone trying to stat-out the characters.  Did someone already do a thread like that, and I missed it?  Or are we simply being direlect in our duty to be obsessively geeky?
> 
> If it hasn't been done in recent memory, how about we stat out the crew as 32-piont-buy 10th-level D&D 3.5 characters?
> 
> Spider




www.serenityrpg.com    Go buy the RPG for Serenity, all the stats are in there.  Same with Firefly, The Operative, Reavers and the big city looking ships from the show.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Oct 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You keep wondering why the Reavers would do something like this. What has caused you to think that the Reavers would generally behave in a rational or sensible manner?




The thing that always gets me in book or movie threads is:  what makes you think that PEOPLE would generally behave in a rational or sensible manner?

Anybody remember the runaway bride?  How about the folks who killed themselves because the comet was coming?  When was the last time you saw somebody eating, talking on a cell phone, and driving simultaneously?  How many smokers do you know?  Have you ever known somebody in an abusive relationship?  Remember stock market bubbles?  How many overweight Americans are there?  When was the last balanced budget?  Who keeps the Psychic Friends Hotline in business?

It doesn't take a psychotic cannibal to make bad decisions.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Oct 6, 2005)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> I didn't cry...I didn't really have time to cry, even if that was my inclination.  My comment in the theater was, "that was lame," a feeling that remained in the background as I watched Zoe do her ice queen/death wish thing.




I've had a similar disconnect of reaction with folks over the infamous "red wedding" scene in A Song of Fire and Ice... A lot of people point to it as a triumph of realism, but for me it took me out of the story as a seperate "reality" and made me so completely aware of the arbitrary decisions the author can make that I lost all investment and all but the most casual interest in the rest of the book. 

I think trying to establish a feeling of reality with a shock death is a fine line to dance. It has a chance of revealing the hand of the author and making the rest of the events seem more scripted, not less.


----------



## Jeremy (Oct 6, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> Wash's death serves so many purposes.
> 
> It is done to give a sense of urgency to the film. To make you worry that ANY or ALL of them will die in the finale. It makes you sit at the edge of your seat.
> 
> ...




Well said.

Those were the character reasons to end the character, and like someone else said, the world changes, if everything always returns to the status quo you never have any development.

There were also actor reasons to kill the character.

Wash's death bummed me out for a long time after each viewing.  But that is another sign of how good the movie is.  That some actor in some special effects shot made me feel and made so many others feel, and that we're discussing it right now...  Some fictional happening to a fictional character in a 2 hour movie...

That's mighty powerful stuff.


----------



## Fedifensor (Oct 6, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You keep wondering why the Reavers would do something like this. What has caused you to think that the Reavers would generally behave in a rational or sensible manner?




If they were acting on instinct, or savage rage, there were a LOT of targets closer and easier to get to.  Serenity went right through the center of the Alliance fleet.  Targeting Serenity doesn't make sense if the Reavers were acting rationally, and it doesn't even make sense if they were acting irrationally.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Oct 6, 2005)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> it doesn't even make sense if they were acting irrationally.



 Huh?


----------



## sniffles (Oct 6, 2005)

I have a friend who's really worked up over Wash's death. He loves Whedon's shows and loved the movie, but if he met Whedon on the street he'd probably yell at him for killing Wash. He's not normally a fanboy type but he admits he'd like to get on a Firefly forum and scream bloody murder. 

I like it when a creator isn't afraid to kill important characters. Making it shocking was good for me. It reminded me just how high the stakes were for the whole Serenity crew. It made me really really hate and fear the Reavers, where before they were just sort of an abstract threat. 

I also seem to find Shepherd's death a lot more distressing than many people do - my friend above, for example. Shepherd was Mal's moral compass to a certain degree; notice how Mal went back to him for help even though he was no longer a member of the Serenity crew. His death helped to give Mal his own internal moral compass back, I think. Did it occur to anyone that one of the corpses they strapped to the ship _might_ have been Shepherd's?
That possibility made the whole scene even more disturbing for me.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 6, 2005)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> If they were acting on instinct, or savage rage, there were a LOT of targets closer and easier to get to.  Serenity went right through the center of the Alliance fleet.  Targeting Serenity doesn't make sense if the Reavers were acting rationally, and it doesn't even make sense if they were acting irrationally.




Hmmm, I thought the ship that followed them in was the same one Mal shot at.  No idea if I am correct, but then, might it make sense that they were fixated on this one ship and its crew, as opposed to all the other Reaver ships which were just in shark-like feeding frenzy mode.


----------



## Jeremy (Oct 6, 2005)

Nah.  Mal ordered that little ship with the grappler scytheblade arms shot.  The one that was chasing them was much bigger and had an emp cannon on it's underside.

It probably just saw Serenity dodging and weaving, caught it's attention and said, I want the hard prey.  Knocked it out of the sky, watched it recover and land, moved in to collect their spoils.  Laughed when the crew sat in their exposed glass cockpit congratulating themselves on their ugly landing instead of running for their lives like all the other cattle does.

I hate Reavers.  Nuke 'em all from orbit.


----------



## Belen (Oct 6, 2005)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> If they were acting on instinct, or savage rage, there were a LOT of targets closer and easier to get to.  Serenity went right through the center of the Alliance fleet.  Targeting Serenity doesn't make sense if the Reavers were acting rationally, and it doesn't even make sense if they were acting irrationally.




Dude...they wanted Serenity.  Serenity flew through their turf, shot up on of their ships, and they needed to fit solace in raping, sewing flesh into hats, dining and explaining how their feelings were hurt to the crew.

I am not surprised that they following Serenity.

Also, notice that the crew had time to escape and set up a defense.  That means the harpoons were shot into the ship from another ship.  They could have done that after hovering and seeing it Serenity made it or not.


----------



## Banshee16 (Oct 6, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> And I have no problem with "pointless" death in movies like this. Why? Because sometimes people die pointlessly.
> 
> I loved the character of Wash. I'm sorry he's gone. But I do not, in any way, feel that Joss was "in the wrong" for killing him. It added to the tension for a lot of people, myself included. But even if it had not, it was perfectly appropriate for the events that were happening at the time.




I agree....I was very sad when Wash died....sad, shocked, stunned.....but I don't think it was bad.  People die for no reason all the time.  The movie dealt with that, plus it helped set up a really tense final 30 minutes of the movie.

Banshee


----------



## Storm Raven (Oct 6, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> I have a friend who's really worked up over Wash's death. He loves Whedon's shows and loved the movie, but if he met Whedon on the street he'd probably yell at him for killing Wash. He's not normally a fanboy type but he admits he'd like to get on a Firefly forum and scream bloody murder.




And this is why Walsh's death was perfect for the story. Killing a character only has impact if you kill a character that people _care about_. Killing off a secondary or tertiary character that no one really minds dying is a trivial issue. Likewise killing the "set-up to die" type characters that litter action movies with their bodies has almost no impact. Killing a character people _like_: now that's going to ramp things up.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Oct 6, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> I also seem to find Shepherd's death a lot more distressing than many people do - my friend above, for example. Shepherd was Mal's moral compass to a certain degree; notice how Mal went back to him for help even though he was no longer a member of the Serenity crew. His death helped to give Mal his own internal moral compass back, I think. Did it occur to anyone that one of the corpses they strapped to the ship _might_ have been Shepherd's?
> That possibility made the whole scene even more disturbing for me.



They did bury Book's body at the end, so it's possible they didn't strap his body to the ship, and left it in the cargo-hold instead.  But it wasn't really clearly pointed out either way on what they did.


----------



## sniffles (Oct 6, 2005)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> They did bury Book's body at the end, so it's possible they didn't strap his body to the ship, and left it in the cargo-hold instead.  But it wasn't really clearly pointed out either way on what they did.




Well, it showed them having a memorial service - there might not have been any bodies under those markers. I wonder what the burial customs are in the Serenity universe? Maybe they buried the bodies in space.


----------



## RangerWickett (Oct 6, 2005)

How exactly does one strap a skeleton to the hull of a ship?


----------



## Shadowdancer (Oct 6, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> Who keeps the Psychic Friends Hotline in business?




Dude! Dion Warwick _told_ me you were going to post that. That's so _weird_.


----------



## Jeremy (Oct 6, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> How exactly does one strap a skeleton to the hull of a ship?




You tie up by it's wrists and ank--wait?  You mean the bones don't hold together?

Maybe they used some kinda hot glue gun...  that... er..  holds up to re-entry sequences...

Look..  Do you wanna run this ship!?

Well..  You can't..... .. .. er..


----------



## sniffles (Oct 6, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> How exactly does one strap a skeleton to the hull of a ship?




Agh! You just reminded me of one of my pet peeves - skeletons that are still articulated in movies and tv. I guess after the Alliance killed them, they wired all the bones back together?   

I actually had the feeling that they didn't become skeletons until after Serenity went through the atmosphere - the ship is shown with skeletons strapped to the hull as it leaves the planet. Although why the bones didn't burn up too I don't know. I'm not knowledgeable enough about the physics of that.


----------



## Richards (Oct 7, 2005)

Yeah, I kind of got the idea that they were still flesh-covered bodies when they were strapped to the hull, and only "became" skeletons during the flight up and out of the atmosphere.

Johnathan


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Oct 7, 2005)

Yeah I was wondering why the skeletons didn't burn up.  Also, they painted red on the ship as well (I assume it was paint and not blood).  In either case, wouldn't that burn up to?


----------



## ThirdWizard (Oct 7, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> How exactly does one strap a skeleton to the hull of a ship?




I plead the fifth!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Oct 7, 2005)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Look..  Do you wanna run this ship!?
> 
> Well..  You can't..... .. .. er..




That was the lamest set of lines in that whole movie.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Oct 7, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Remember also that Inara is more then just a two bit hooker. Her kind receives actual training in body language and manipulation, communications, etc. She was able to read Mals "wife" like a book.




For that matter, she reads the Operative in a split second. The scene in Serenity where she is smiling as he approaches, then her eyes widen when she looks into his face- no dialogue- is one of the standout moments of the movie to me.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Oct 7, 2005)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> No, he really didn't.  Killing Book showed he was willing to kill characters.  The more likely explaination was mentioned earlier in this thread - the actor couldn't commit to future projects, so Joss wrote him out.




Did you read the quote from Alan Tudyk about Wash's death that I posted a couple of days ago in this thread? He says he even thought from the beginning that Wash should die, and talked to Joss about it when the series was still on the air. Nothing about committing to future projects and being written out.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Oct 7, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> That was the lamest set of lines in that whole movie.




Which just goes to show how well written it is, because that was a funny set of lines.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 7, 2005)

As for the one Reaver ship following Serenity.
It is the same Reaver ship that is on to them before they blow their disguise.

And in TV show, theyve already laid the rules that if you run from Reavers, they WILL follow you. They feel obligated to chase you down if you run.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Oct 7, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> For that matter, she reads the Operative in a split second. The scene in Serenity where she is smiling as he approaches, then her eyes widen when she looks into his face- no dialogue- is one of the standout moments of the movie to me.





Ayup...

One of my favorite parts is when Inara and Mal talk over the wave, and they dont fight, and almost everyone realizes its a trap BECAUSE they didnt fight..

The sexual tension between those too is just so charged and fun.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Oct 7, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> That was the lamest set of lines in that whole movie.




*shrug*

Whereas I thought it was damn funny.


----------



## Pielorinho (Oct 7, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> It doesn't take a psychotic cannibal to make bad decisions.



Sig line!

Someone mentioned how he'd already shown his willingness to kill off major characters by killing off Book, and so Wash's death was unnecessary for this purpose.  I disagree.  As I read elsewhere, once Book gets deadified, there's almost a feeling of, "Whew!  A major character is dead, so the rest are safe."  It's not too uncommon for a single major character to die.

When Wash died, that sense of safety evaporated.  Who kills two major characters like that?  They could all die!

I thought it worked well, even though it made me feel sick at the time.

Daniel


----------



## Nareau (Oct 7, 2005)

I agree.  In fact, as I was watching the end of the film, I completely expected it to go down like this:  All the secondary characters get offed one-by-one, until the last guy dies performing the action that will save the world.  I was surprised that the whole cast didn't bite it.

Spider


----------



## Warrior Poet (Oct 7, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> When Wash died, that sense of safety evaporated.  Who kills two major characters like that?  They could all die!
> 
> I thought it worked well, even though it made me feel sick at the time.



Agreed, and good point.  After Wash, as soon as the others started taking hits, I thought, "OK, he's gonna off 'em all," and started trying to steel myself for the deaths of the others.  Great job holding me in suspense and really making me care about what happened!  I felt awful about the deaths of Book and Wash, but in the end, I think they both served the story well, and were excellent parts of the movie.  It's not often I say, "Wow that was really awful, and it made the movie better."

Warrior Poet

_Edit:  Cross-post with Spider._


----------



## Quasqueton (Oct 7, 2005)

I just saw the movie last night. Rate it a solid 8 out of 10. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

My one complaint about this movie is on something that always annoys me about space movies -- everything is just a few hours journey from everywhere else. It drives me crazy when the galaxy/universe feels so small.

But I loved the characters. I loved the dialogue. The story was decent. And I came into this movie completely clean -- I know nothing about this franchise. But I will see a sequel if they come out with one. I would watch a TV show if they make one. (Is this movie affiliated with Firefly? -- which I never saw.)

Now to go read the rest of the posts in this thread. Maybe my last question there will get answered.

Quasqueton


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Oct 7, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> My one complaint about this movie is on something that always annoys me about space movies -- everything is just a few hours journey from everywhere else. It drives me crazy when the galaxy/universe feels so small.




Well...it is just one star system, and we don't really know anything about the drives they're using, so hours is actually much more reasonable in Serenity than it is in many Scifi movies.


----------



## Quasqueton (Oct 7, 2005)

Oh, and one other thing that bugged me (reading some of the earlier posts made me remember it): I hate how one man can take so much [lethal] damage, yet keep on going. The captain (sorry, his name didn't stick. Mal?) got shot in the back (close range), stabbed in the gut with a sword (by a professional assassin), beat about by a man who quickly/easily killed two bodyguards earlier in the show, and still walked away from the scene.

I loved how he was a scapper, and a quick draw and good shot, but really, he took some seemingly lethal hits and kept going like it was just a roughing up. It shook me out of my suspension of disbelief.

But still, with these two [major, to me] gripes, giving it a 8/10 shows how good this movie is.

Quasqueton


----------



## Rackhir (Oct 7, 2005)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> I disagree.  Doyle's death was a heroic death, where he chose to die to save everyone else.




My understanding of things was that one of the reasons why Doyle's character was killed was to show that "Nobody is safe" and that he was willing to do stuff like this to major characters. Walsh died for much the same meta plot reason. Not the reason he died in story.


----------



## Greylock (Oct 8, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Well, it showed them having a memorial service - there might not have been any bodies under those markers. I wonder what the burial customs are in the Serenity universe? Maybe they buried the bodies in space.




That is precisely the impression I walked away with. After I saw Serenity for the second time. The first time I saw it i didn't dwell on the little issues.

The movie holds up to repeat viewing, btw. Wash's death was more effecctive the second time around, although knowing the crew lives through the battle caused all that tension ot be lost.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Oct 8, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Oh, and one other thing that bugged me (reading some of the earlier posts made me remember it): I hate how one man can take so much [lethal] damage, yet keep on going. The captain (sorry, his name didn't stick. Mal?) got shot in the back (close range), stabbed in the gut with a sword (by a professional assassin), beat about by a man who quickly/easily killed two bodyguards earlier in the show, and still walked away from the scene.



Don't you know, Mal is a higher level character than those bodyguards, and has more hit points.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Oct 8, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Oh, and one other thing that bugged me (reading some of the earlier posts made me remember it): I hate how one man can take so much [lethal] damage, yet keep on going. The captain (sorry, his name didn't stick. Mal?) got shot in the back (close range), stabbed in the gut with a sword (by a professional assassin), beat about by a man who quickly/easily killed two bodyguards earlier in the show, and still walked away from the scene.
> 
> I loved how he was a scapper, and a quick draw and good shot, but really, he took some seemingly lethal hits and kept going like it was just a roughing up. It shook me out of my suspension of disbelief.
> 
> ...




Seems like typical Hollywood Hero Syndrome. Same thing has been done to Mel Gibson's character, Riggs, in the Lethal Weapon movies. And other major protagonists. They get their asses stomped into near oblivion but manage to defeat the bad guy in the end. It just takes away from the fighting scene a bit to know that the good guy is somehow going to win, even with the crap pummeled out of him the entire fight. He's gonna get that "lucky" blow in that's going to end the bad guy for sure.


----------



## Ao the Overkitty (Oct 8, 2005)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> Don't you know, Mal is a higher level character than those bodyguards, and has more hit points.




He obviously has a good Strength & Constitution, Natural Toughness and several levels of Hard to Kill. Plus, I sure bet he was spending drama points for 'I Think I'm Okay."


----------



## Banshee16 (Oct 9, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> I just saw the movie last night. Rate it a solid 8 out of 10. I enjoyed it thoroughly.
> 
> My one complaint about this movie is on something that always annoys me about space movies -- everything is just a few hours journey from everywhere else. It drives me crazy when the galaxy/universe feels so small.
> 
> ...




Yes, Serenity the movie takes place about six months after the last episode of the show Firefly.  If you liked Serenity, I definitely recommend finding the show on DVD.

Banshee


----------



## Truth Seeker (Oct 9, 2005)

I'm tempted for a third viewing...shall I?


----------



## Dagger75 (Oct 9, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> I'm tempted for a third viewing...shall I?




I just got back from the third time watching it.  Theater was just as packed as it was last week.  I hope thats a good sign.


----------



## Tetsubo (Oct 9, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Seems like typical Hollywood Hero Syndrome. Same thing has been done to Mel Gibson's character, Riggs, in the Lethal Weapon movies. And other major protagonists. They get their asses stomped into near oblivion but manage to defeat the bad guy in the end. It just takes away from the fighting scene a bit to know that the good guy is somehow going to win, even with the crap pummeled out of him the entire fight. He's gonna get that "lucky" blow in that's going to end the bad guy for sure.




True. And a realistic "hero" fight scene in a modern Hollywood film where the main character dies would be refreshing. But that character up there on the screen is "us". And I want to live, get the girl the gold and the medal...


----------



## glass (Oct 9, 2005)

PhoenixDarkDirk said:
			
		

> I belive that was "thalidomide."



Interestingly, the things very properties that made thalidomide a very bad thing to give to pregnant women are apparently now looking to give it potential as a cancer treatment.



> Speaking of changing the subject, _Serenity_ was the first movie I ever saw on opening day.



Me too!


glass.


----------



## Just_Hal (Oct 9, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> I just got back from the third time watching it.  Theater was just as packed as it was last week.  I hope thats a good sign.





Yes thanks for going with me D75!
Loved it for all the reasons listed and was upset about Wash, understood but the movie is so much darker than the show, kinda need a Wash around.

9/10 IMHO!


----------



## Silver Moon (Oct 10, 2005)

I found the sharp camera cuts and moving cameras fairly distracting in the first half-hour or so.    The man antagonist was very good but I think Joss missed an opportunity not casting a better known actor in that role to draw in a new and bigger audience, the part was certainly large enough and well enough written that an A-list or high B-list actor would have gone for it.    I also thought that many of the fights were way more Buffy/Angel than Firefly.   The biggest problem was his playing down the 'Western' themes, which is the part of the show that I enjoyed the most.  Overall though, very good.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Oct 10, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> I just got back from the third time watching it.  Theater was just as packed as it was last week.  I hope thats a good sign.




I will take that as a sign to go.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Oct 10, 2005)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> I found the sharp camera cuts and moving cameras fairly distracting in the first half-hour or so.    The man antagonist was very good but I think Joss missed an opportunity not casting a better know actor in that role to draw in a new and bigger audience, the part was certainly large enough and well enough written that an A-list or high B-list actor would have gone for it.     I also though that many of the fights were way more Buffy/Angel than Firefly.   The biggest problem was his playing down the 'Western' themes, which is the part of the show that I enjoyed the most.  Overall though, very good.




Made with 45 million budget, and noting Joss' taste on he feels, can bring it to the screen.

The actor in question...did and carried the part of being Mr. Monster, very well.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Oct 10, 2005)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> The biggest problem was his playing down the 'Western' themes, which is the part of the show that I enjoyed the most.  Overall though, very good.




I agree 100%.  One of the biggest things I liked about the series was the "Space Western" aspect, but the movie really toned that part down and made it more of a straight up sci-fi movie.  Too bad.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 10, 2005)

What's interesting is that they killed the western parts, and the no-sound-in-space, and the theme song, and a few other bits the fans love to try to make the movie more mainstream.

and the movie tanked anyway.

so I wonder if they will try to director's cut some of those back into the DVD.

Or, if DVD sales are big enough to get another low-budget sequel, I wonder if they'll be put back into a sequel.

Whatever, as long as Joss's message to the fans from the preview screenings is on the DVD I don't really care what else is there. If that message and the Firefly theme aren't somewhere on the DVD there will be fighting words.

And seeing the movie in May in a roomful of hardcore fans  was different than seeing the midnight first show with big geeks and was a huge difference from seeing it with a 1/2 empty "mainstream" audience a week later. 

The different reactions to the witty dialogue are amazing. Also, the mainstream audience seemed much more uncomfortable with the crew fighting amonst themselves. 

It is also proved to me once again that it is ALWAYS better to see a movie in a packed house (preferably on opening night)  More people, sure, but always more well behaved because they REALLY want to see the movie. And always a better reaction. People laugh and clap and gasp in unison, which relaxes other people enough to vocalize their reactions.


----------



## Silver Moon (Oct 10, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> ...and the theme song



It was there....at the very end of the closing credits.


There were only eleven people in the theater that I saw it in.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 10, 2005)

It was instrumental only.

And at the end of the credits doesn't count as being part of the movie.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Oct 10, 2005)

Post Deleted.


----------



## Quasqueton (Oct 10, 2005)

> What's interesting is that they killed the western parts, and the no-sound-in-space, and the theme song, and a few other bits the fans love to try to make the movie more mainstream.
> 
> and the movie tanked anyway.



Note: I have never seen Firefly.

I thought the movie was very "westernish". I noted that feel in the very beginning (the "bank robbery").

I noticed the no sound in space, and I liked it. The only time there was sound in space was when Jane was firing the top-mount gun -- and that seemed more like "feeling" the gun go off than really hearing it.

I have no idea about the theme song. I stayed till after the credits, but I didn't notice any big song.

The movie tanked?

Quasqueton


----------



## Nareau (Oct 10, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> What's interesting is that they killed the western parts, and the no-sound-in-space, and the theme song, and a few other bits the fans love to try to make the movie more mainstream.



Some of these issues are addressed by Joss here.



			
				In Focus Interview said:
			
		

> *There are fewer horses and heads of cattle in “Serenity” than in the “Firefly” TV series. Do you suspect perhaps the series was somehow hobbled in the early going by its more overtly “Western” visual elements?*
> Yes and no. I think Fox was terrified of the Western concept. The fact that there are no horses in this movie is only by virtue of the fact I didn’t find a place for them. Not by virtue of the fact that I deliberately avoided them. Because the Western element is still a part of the story. It’s a frontier story. For example, I did look back at the series and say, “Okay, Mal being thrown through the holographic bar window is maybe a little jokey for the movie.” It’s a good shorthand for the series but I think for a movie you have to work through the logic just a hair more. But the ship scaring the horses that we used in the credits? The last image of the credits in “Firefly”? That works great. That to me is a timeless image that combines the two just fine. It just didn’t happen in this movie, ‘cause, well, a lot of things didn’t happen in this movie. Because I had two hours instead of seven seasons.
> 
> ...
> ...




Spider


----------



## Just_Hal (Oct 10, 2005)

Yes it is not doing so well BUT look at what came out this week and made less than Serenity did in week 1

In Her Shoes 
Two for the Money
The Gospel
Waiting 

So.....yes bad but in comparison, not so bad.  Hope it keeps going in theatres and makes some OK money in US and goes nuts overseas.

Theme song is "owned" by Fox like the rights to the TV airing, so the musical rendition was at the end.  It was less westerny then some episodes but not all of 'em.


----------



## glass (Oct 10, 2005)

Went to see it twice this weekend (which is opening weekend here in the UK). Loved it just as much the second time as the first. I thought there were plenty of western trappings: The accents, the clothes, the vocabulary, the guns. True, they were mixed up with other stuff, but then they always were.

As it was about to start (the first viewing), I thought 'this is going to be great', followed by 'oh god, am I setting myself up for massive disappointment'. I wasn't.

I didn't even mind the new slimline Kaylee, which was the one thing I was worried about. I guess Jewel Staite can't just look bad whatever she does. Plus, with the comments about food shortages, her weightloss kinda made sense.



glass.


----------



## Just_Hal (Oct 10, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> Went to see it twice this weekend (which is opening weekend here in the UK). Loved it just as much the second time as the first. I thought there were plenty of western trappings: The accents, the clothes, the vocabulary, the guns. True, they were mixed up with other stuff, but then they always were.
> 
> As it was about to start (the first viewing), I thought 'this is going to be great', followed by 'oh god, am I setting myself up for massive disappointment'. I wasn't.
> 
> ...





hey Glass when they post weekend numbers for the UK will ya post a link for us?


----------



## Rel (Oct 10, 2005)

I saw it for the first time yesterday and I loved it.  In fact this is one of those movies that the more it rattles around in my brain, the MORE I love it.  It makes me want to see the rest of the Firefly episodes I haven't seen (I've only seen about 4 of them), it makes me want to see a sequel and it makes me want to play a Serenity RPG.

I know this is a very weird (and entirely lopsided) contrast to make but since I saw them both in the same weekend...D&D2 v. Serenity  (ok, even typing them next to each other makes me feel a little dirty).

The little touches in terms of dialogue and acting completly made Serenity the success that it was and the poor quality of same made D&D2 mediocre at best.  And we're not talking about "A List" actors in either case.

A good story, good dialogue and good acting can really take you far and those things have very little to do with your budget.  Done right, the small things can really turn an ok concept into something golden.  When I think about Serenity I think about Inara's expression going from welcoming to stony when she meets The Operative.  I think about the eye roll that River gives her brother when he asks, "Am I speaking to 'Miranda' right now?"  The way Kaylee regains her will to live at the prospect of her crush being fulfilled.  And how Jayne is so excited about getting to bring along his grenades.

I guess what I'm saying is that I really think a case can be made for Serenity being a "textbook" example for future film makers to look at in terms of how to make characters that the audience will care about.

Anyway, bravo to Joss Whedon and sign me up for whatever he's doing next.


----------



## rob4 (Oct 10, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Oh, and one other thing that bugged me (reading some of the earlier posts made me remember it): I hate how one man can take so much [lethal] damage, yet keep on going. The captain (sorry, his name didn't stick. Mal?) got shot in the back (close range), stabbed in the gut with a sword (by a professional assassin), beat about by a man who quickly/easily killed two bodyguards earlier in the show, and still walked away from the scene.
> 
> Quasqueton




I'd like to point out that the gun that he was shot with was not a firearm, but some sort of stun weapon.  If you haven't seen the show then it's less obvious, but in the scene right before he bails out of the ship he's on, the Operative grabs the gun off a dead Alliance soldier.  In the series we often see the Alliance soldiers using taser-like stun weapons.  In the movie, you can sort of tell this because there's a crackling electrical effect when Mal is shot by the gun, but it could have been a little more obvious.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Oct 10, 2005)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> .  What purpose did Inara serve?  Why was she part of the crew?  What did she bring to the table?




What does anyone bring to the table with river on the team?  Oh wait they can make witty lines.  If they want a shock death in the next movie kill River, it will make the movie a gajillion times better.


----------



## John Cooper (Oct 11, 2005)

> Rel:  Anyway, bravo to Joss Whedon and sign me up for whatever he's doing next.



That would be a film version of _Wonder Woman_.  No joke.


----------



## Just_Hal (Oct 11, 2005)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> What does anyone bring to the table with river on the team?  Oh wait they can make witty lines.  If they want a shock death in the next movie kill River, it will make the movie a gajillion times better.





Who peed in your Wheaties---sheesh

Yes River is "special" and they focused on her issues for the movies, next time it might be Nishka and be all about Mal and Zoe.

In 1977 "Boy that boy Skywalker in that new fangled Star Wars movie what an ego, bet he is screaming who needs an old guy with powers or a pilot when he has the force and flew stuff on his home planet.... what he want next a trilogy about his life, the movie is so Skywalker centric if they make 6 I bet it will revolve around someone from his family."


----------



## Banshee16 (Oct 11, 2005)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> What does anyone bring to the table with river on the team?  Oh wait they can make witty lines.  If they want a shock death in the next movie kill River, it will make the movie a gajillion times better.




Uh....this was heavily alluded to even in the pilot episode of the show.  River was a super-genious, able to pick up anything with ease.  Heck, she picked up medicine faster than her brother, who's a gifted trauma surgeon...and you're wondering about how she can fly etc.?  

It was her story arc being completed, and that's a story that had lasted through most of the first season, and driven events behind many of the episodes.

It would make sense that she'd be resolved in the movie.

Banshee


----------



## Nifft (Oct 11, 2005)

John Cooper said:
			
		

> That would be a film version of _Wonder Woman_.  No joke.




A pretty young female who uses martial arts and kicks butt? Oh Joss, you have so many different kinds of story to tell! 

 -- N, actually a Joss fan


----------



## Rel (Oct 11, 2005)

John Cooper said:
			
		

> That would be a film version of _Wonder Woman_.  No joke.




Hot amazon chick who fights crime with light bondage?  Don't twist my arm.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Oct 11, 2005)

Just_Hal said:
			
		

> Who peed in your Wheaties---sheesh
> 
> Yes River is "special" and they focused on her issues for the movies, next time it might be Nishka and be all about Mal and Zoe.
> 
> In 1977 "Boy that boy Skywalker in that new fangled Star Wars movie what an ego, bet he is screaming who needs an old guy with powers or a pilot when he has the force and flew stuff on his home planet.... what he want next a trilogy about his life, the movie is so Skywalker centric if they make 6 I bet it will revolve around someone from his family."




A crappy character peed in my wheaties.  Sorry I didn't love the movie like you did.  But then agian they probably could of just rolled the credits had one dance/fight scene with river and ended it and you owuld of rated it a 10.

And in 1977 that boy skywlaker was a good pilot but crapy fighter, and lousy in the force.  By then end he was good but hardly awe inspriiing in any of these.  He never made every other character useless dead weight like river does.  But hey super omega buffy in space is fun.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Oct 11, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Uh....this was heavily alluded to even in the pilot episode of the show.  River was a super-genious, able to pick up anything with ease.  Heck, she picked up medicine faster than her brother, who's a gifted trauma surgeon...and you're wondering about how she can fly etc.?
> 
> It was her story arc being completed, and that's a story that had lasted through most of the first season, and driven events behind many of the episodes.
> 
> ...




Yeah but in the show she was crazy sometimes mind reader chick who couldn't contorl it.  They resolved it by making her the best in the universe at everything and in control of her abilities.  So yeah it was resolved, it was just resolved in a really, really dumb way.


----------



## RangerWickett (Oct 11, 2005)

I can see why that would grate on you. But it's hardly like River made the rest of the crew pointless. She didn't really _do anything_ productive until the end. The first 90% of the movie, it was the crew with their guns protecting her because she was crazy and flakey. Then for a little bit at the end of the movie, she was able to go all bad-ass and have a moment of glory. 

Is it just that she's more powerful in combat than the other characters that bothers you?


----------



## dravot (Oct 11, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I can see why that would grate on you. But it's hardly like River made the rest of the crew pointless. She didn't really _do anything_ productive until the end. The first 90% of the movie, it was the crew with their guns protecting her because she was crazy and flakey. Then for a little bit at the end of the movie, she was able to go all bad-ass and have a moment of glory.
> 
> Is it just that she's more powerful in combat than the other characters that bothers you?



I hear she also makes a rilly good beef stew and doesn't let anyone else in the kitchen.  It's so unfair.


----------



## Rel (Oct 11, 2005)

dravot said:
			
		

> I hear she also makes a rilly good beef stew and doesn't let anyone else in the kitchen.  It's so unfair.




OUTRAGEOUS!!


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 11, 2005)

I saw the movie a second time this weekend and found I enjoyed it even more than the first time.  

My wife could not get over some of the costume changes.  She thought the outfits for Mal, Simon and Zoe looked so much better in the series.  They made them too modern/sci-fi looking for the movie.  And Wash's jumpsuit just seemed...wrong.  I know he had the hawaiian shirt on underneath, but it just didn't seem casual enough.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Oct 11, 2005)

I still say the Operative was the real hero. If Wheadon makes a sequel, it should be more "Blake's Seven" like in its ending.


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## Rel (Oct 11, 2005)

One thing that I feel is worth mentioning after reading some Serenity commentary on other boards is how lucky we are to be gamers.  I see post after post of people hoping, begging and pleading that the TV series be restored or that more Firefly movies be made.  And I hope so too.  But for gamers there's always more story, even if we have to make it up ourselves.

That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.


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## ThirdWizard (Oct 11, 2005)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> Yeah but in the show she was crazy sometimes mind reader chick who couldn't contorl it.  They resolved it by making her the best in the universe at everything and in control of her abilities.  So yeah it was resolved, it was just resolved in a really, really dumb way.




River is a munchkin!


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## Henry (Oct 11, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.




GROUP HUG!

...but keep your hands where I can see 'em. 

I've already seen a couple of threads on this site (in d20 and general) on RPGing with either the Firefly universe or the "Firefly" feel. Can't stop the signal, after all.


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## Meloncov (Oct 12, 2005)

While River is highly gifted in nearly everything, she is still emotioanlly unstable. She made significent improvements during the movie, but many of the things the Alliance did to her cannot be undone. This alone makes her unsuitable to be the primary pilot, no matter how great her skills are.

Also, I think that the last seen with River and Mal was intended to convey that no matter how great her reflexes and inteligence are, she cannot match someone who has both talent and an undying love for what they are doing.


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## Darth K'Trava (Oct 12, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> River is a munchkin!




Quoted for truthery.


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## Just_Hal (Oct 12, 2005)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> A crappy character peed in my wheaties.  Sorry I didn't love the movie like you did.  But then agian they probably could of just rolled the credits had one dance/fight scene with river and ended it and you owuld of rated it a 10.
> 
> And in 1977 that boy skywlaker was a good pilot but crapy fighter, and lousy in the force.  By then end he was good but hardly awe inspriiing in any of these.  He never made every other character useless dead weight like river does.  But hey super omega buffy in space is fun.




sarcasm

mmmmmmm let me think about that...me: bitter old guy, nah did not give it a 10 for the whole movie and would not give credits and a wee bit o River a 10 either, and I did not even go opening weekend, so there   LOL.

Don't judge me about over rating the movie, I think you are boxing it the movie in and was giving a IMHO humorous comparison, saw ANH in the theatre 20+ times that summer of '77, life was grand with my parents money and no life.

River interests me but is by no way my fav character in Firefly/Serenity.  The Buffy series, I think I ended up seeing most on dvd and saw all of Angel on dvd but did not see any while on tv.  So the spbuffy does nothing for me......

Anything else ya wanna tell me about my viewing habits?  I need ya to tell me what to watch on tv this week   

Lighten up....think ya may be eating from that same wheatie box again.

Check please!!!!!

/sarcasm


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## glass (Oct 13, 2005)

Just_Hal said:
			
		

> hey Glass when they post weekend numbers for the UK will ya post a link for us?



I would if I knew where to find them (). Teletext has charts, and I think they have figures with them, but I can't post a link to that!


glass.


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## Plane Sailing (Oct 13, 2005)

From: http://forum.cantstopthesignal.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10488



> Serenity opens #1 in the UK!
> #1 new opener!
> 
> #1 movie of the weekend!
> ...


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## Henry (Oct 13, 2005)

For the time of year it opened, it wasn't a slouch anywhere, even in the U.S. - it did make #2 opening weekend. 


Right now my biggest hope is that it makes enough money to convince Universal it's worth more silver screen time.


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## Rel (Oct 13, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Right now my biggest hope is that it makes enough money to convince Universal it's worth more silver screen time.




I'm a "silver lining" kind of guy so I figure that if it gets dropped from the big theatres and goes to the $1.50 place around here, I'll go see it like 5 times in a row.


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## Dagger75 (Oct 14, 2005)

My personal thought.  

 If a sequel is never made I will not lose sleep.  Thats not saying I wouldn't love for there to be another movie but this movie finished the Firefly story for me.  Granted there are still tons of questions I would like answered.  The show burned bright but way to fast and showed that a great movie doesn't need a huge budget, big named stars or anything typically associated with blockbusters.  Word of mouth, a vocal and fanatic fan base, and actors and a creator who loved the product and the fans that watched it.  That is a perfect recipe for any movie.


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## Arnwyn (Oct 14, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> If a sequel is never made I will not lose sleep.  Thats not saying I wouldn't love for there to be another movie but this movie finished the Firefly story for me.



Yeah, that's exactly how I feel.

I know that I'm not interested in seeing any sequels. _Serenity_ finished off the Firefly series for me.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 14, 2005)

More!  Must have More!

Yes, I would love additional movies in this 'verse.

But I agree that now, if it fades into the black, I can at least be content with what we did get.


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## Henry (Oct 14, 2005)

How's this for scalding the rear end?

Serenity is no longer playing in my local Theater!  Well, so much for me getting in a second screening. 

It's gotten bumped for The Fog, Domino, and a host of other new releases.

Not EVEN three weeks.  That Godawful Flightplan and Into the Blue are still running, though - Pfah.


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## Rel (Oct 15, 2005)

Our plans for last night fell through but we already had Samantha the Red sleeping over at my mom's house.  So I took my wife to see Serenity.  My second viewing and her first.

I very much enjoyed seeing it a second time and noticed a couple things I hadn't on the first viewing.  Probably the most significant was how, when they land on Miranda and discover the dead people, there is this circling camera shot that ends with Jayne saying something like, "Let's get outta here.  Everything is dead here anyway."  But as he says the last line, the camera comes to rest on Wash.

My wife hadn't seen any of the series but she's heard me talk about the episodes that I have seen.  She liked it and now wants to watch the series.  Her only negative comment was, "Do they always talk like that?"

Lastly I'm afraid to report that the theatre was probably less than half full and Serenity was showing on only one screen out of 20.  I'm guessing it will be pulled by next week or the week after.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Oct 15, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> River is a munchkin!




Let's see, she took the major enemy disad, the emotional wreck disad, the psychological programming disad, and a couple uncontrolled ability disads in order to get more combat skill than everyone else in the group put together and be able to pick up any new skill she wants in a heartbeat. And she used the psionics rules.

Munchkin? Every box on the checklist is filled in.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Oct 15, 2005)

Shadowdancer said:
			
		

> Miranda couldn't be Earth because a) Earth is in a whole 'nother solar system and b) Earth got used up. No more natural resources. There may be a few people left, but in the 500 years since the big exodus, they probably died off.




What kind of nonsense is that? In the intro, they said that earth had too much population to be able to sustain it so they left. Maybe there's more in the series, but the concept of running out of natural resources entirely doesn't make any sense and the contention that everyone would have died off in 500 years because there wasn't anything left makes even less sense. Even if we assume that earth (and all minable planets in the solar system) were entirely stripped of all metals and all fossil fuels were consumed (not that anyone in Serenity seemed to be using fossil fuels), and all the farmland was paved over (though obviously there was still enough to lay up stores of food for the journey to the new solar system so this was unlikely) and all the trees cut down, people have managed to survive for millenia without metal, land we would consider arable, or fossil fuels. Not that they'd have to. Surely, the people who left during the great exodus didn't take all of their stuff with them and left houses and vehicles that contained metal behind them. And, obviously, they were taking up a lot of space on the planet, so, after they left, there would have been land that could have been converted to agriculture or other uses.

It's quite likely that life would be very different for anyone left behind after the exodus than before it and it's even very possible that the society would have disintegrated in the absence of so many people, but it's highly unlikely that everyone would have died because the planet was "used up." Earth is a planet not a roll of toilet paper and planets don't get used up in that sense.


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## Fast Learner (Oct 15, 2005)

Well... there _are_ scenarios where a low-tech environment would not allow for the survival of people on Earth.

1. Poisoning the atmosphere

2. Burning away the oxygen in the atmosphere

3. Complete or near-complete destruction of the ozone layer.

4. Heavy-metal poisoning of the water.

I'm sure there are many more.

There's not doubt that humans are incredibly adaptable, and can survive in amazing situations, but they do have to breathe, they do have to drink water, and they can't survive even reasonably-short-term exposure to unfilitered solar radiation. Without a high-tech basis (if the infrastructure required leaves the planet), you really can't get around those things.

The planet would still exist, but its ability to sustain human life could well be "used up" for the foreseeable future.


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 15, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Probably the most significant was how, when they land on Miranda and discover the dead people, there is this circling camera shot that ends with Jayne saying something like, "Let's get outta here.  Everything is dead here anyway."  But as he says the last line, the camera comes to rest on Wash.




He says "These people are all dead for no reason." And I agree that, on second viewing, it's very ominous foreshadowing. 



> Lastly I'm afraid to report that the theatre was probably less than half full and Serenity was showing on only one screen out of 20.  I'm guessing it will be pulled by next week or the week after.




It has been scaled back in US theatres, by about 1700 screens (or down to 1700, I can't remember which) but from all reports, that seems to be a normal dropoff. It's doing very well overseas, and Joss had some wonderful things to say about Serenity and its fans a couple of days ago on his blog.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Oct 16, 2005)

True, but I don't think any of those are reasonable interpretations of "used up." They sound more like massive environmental catastrophes.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that all technological infrastructure could or would leave the planet. Sure, you could build colony ships, but people would need somewhere safe to live while they built them and facilities to manufacture the ships, etc. Some of that could be taken with them, but I think a lot of it would have to be left behind.



			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Well... there _are_ scenarios where a low-tech environment would not allow for the survival of people on Earth.
> 
> 1. Poisoning the atmosphere
> 
> ...


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## Rel (Oct 16, 2005)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> True, but I don't think any of those are reasonable interpretations of "used up." They sound more like massive environmental catastrophes.




Given the terraforming technology we know them to have at the time they departed earth, I find it very difficult to imagine any environmental catastrophe that could not be dealt with on Earth.  I find it far more likely that population pressures were getting to the point where overcrowding was reducing the quality of life below an acceptable level.

I think of this as analagous to Larry Niven's "Known Space" series where those who stayed on Earth were limited in the number of children they could have unless they had incredibly good genes (like Carlos Wu) or unless they won the right in the Birthright Lotteries.  The Earth government became somewhat oppressive and people spread to the rest of the solar system (mostly The Belt) and eventually to other planets where they could live life with less government control.

This is precisely the attitude that the frontier planets of the Serenity 'verse seem to have.  And we all know that a sparcely populated, less industrialized, locally governed society will attempt to buck the control of a heavily populated, more industrialized, centrally governed society.  The North won in Firefly too.


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Given the terraforming technology we know them to have at the time they departed earth, I find it very difficult to imagine any environmental catastrophe that could not be dealt with on Earth.  I find it far more likely that population pressures were getting to the point where overcrowding was reducing the quality of life below an acceptable level.




I think there was more than just using up resources going on. The shadow play in "Heart of Gold" showed flames and things coming from the planet, and I got the impression that there was probably some kind of climactic battle/warfare that was going on and people were forced to flee.

The "used up" theory offered forth in the beginning of the movie, after all, is Alliance whitewashing, so read into it what you will.


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## River Tam (Oct 17, 2005)

As Mal always says, "Half of writing history is hiding the truth."

And I am _not _ a munchkin.


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## Vigilance (Oct 17, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Killing Walsh shouldn't have been quite so unexpected. He did the same thing to Doyle at the end of the first season of Angel and for much the same reasons. Though it made Walsh's death no less, shocking, effective or sad.




The actor who played Doyle (and who Joss knew from his time on Roseanne) was written out in Episode 9 because the actor was a heroin addict and had become unreliable.

Regrettably the actor died of an overdose.

Chuck


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## Conaill (Oct 18, 2005)

Have to agree somewhat with Shard that I didn't like how powerful River became at the end. Sure, she didn't contribute much to the first 90% of the movie , but her killing all the Reavers was entirely predictable, and she looked positively *lucid* at the end.

That doesn't bode well for the next Firefly movie (if and when...). The only thing I can think of is that Joss is planning to send in another Operative with *all* of River's control commands, and turn her against the rest of the crew. Now that she's "part of the family", that might make for an interesting dilemma.

Actually, the whole River character in Serenity really smacks of Joss' personal DM-NPC! "Hmm, looks like those idiots couldn't figure out the Miranda clue. They're just flailing around now. Guess I'll just have to get River to *show* them the solution to the riddle."


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