# Wheel of Time November Launch. The next GOT or the next Shannara Chronicles?



## TheSword (Jul 27, 2021)

So Season 1 comes to Amazon in November this year. Covering half of book 1, The Eye of the World.

Will it be the next Game of Thrones? (With a better ending). Or be a damp Squibb like Shannara Chronicles (nothing against the serious but wasn’t a riveting success).

Having Rosamund Pike as a lead fills me with hope. She’s a boss actor!


----------



## Yora (Jul 27, 2021)

A Game of Ice and Fire was the current big thing in fantasy novels when the show started. I think it also got people interested and engaged because it wasn't typical mainstream fantasy that people expected.
Shanara, Wheel of Time, and Lord of the Rings are all old hats, and exactly what defines typical mainstream fantasy that people expect.
I expect these to maybe get a few curious looks when they start and then immediately disappear from the radar. They were not selected because someone thought "hey, that would make a really good adaptation", but instead "well, we have to adapt something. Just find me something we can market as the next Game of Thrones."


----------



## TwoSix (Jul 27, 2021)

I imagine it would be closer to Shannara, just because GoT’s massive success was weird confluence of events that’s unlikely to be replicated.  Lots of shows are successes, even big successes, without approaching the popularity of GoT.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 27, 2021)

Yora said:


> A Game of Ice and Fire was the current big thing in fantasy novels when the show started. I think it also got people interested and engaged because it wasn't typical mainstream fantasy that people expected.
> Shanara, Wheel of Time, and Lord of the Rings are all old hats, and exactly what defines typical mainstream fantasy that people expect.
> I expect these to maybe get a few curious looks when they start and then immediately disappear from the radar. They were not selected because someone thought "hey, that would make a really good adaptation", but instead "well, we have to adapt something. Just find me something we can market as the next Game of Thrones."



I don’t quite get that? Game of Thrones was written in 1996. The books were made popular by the TV show a decade and a half later.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 27, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> I imagine it would be closer to Shannara, just because GoT’s massive success was weird confluence of events that’s unlikely to be replicated.  Lots of shows are successes, even big successes, without approaching the popularity of GoT.



It’s a worry for me. Though Shannara was only a very loose adaption. Whereas WOT is attempting to be pretty faithful I have heard. Of course the long descriptions can be captured in a single glance so the TV series has that going for them.

Amazon I think also has a bit more clout than MTV.

The big thing GOT had going for it (and the worst) was that the books weren’t finished so people were excited to know what comes next. Whereas WOT is finished so that fan speculation won’t be as rife. Of course this proved to be a big let down when the series didn’t get finished properly … so


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Jul 27, 2021)

It's hard to say what will happen with this. Amazon certainly has the money, but that's no surety of quality. Like Game of Thrones, the Wheel of Time TV show could smooth out some of the rough spots - the misogyny, the mid-series slog, for example. Unlike Game of Thrones, the Wheel of Time was finished when they started filming.

If season 1 is just half the first book, it's going to take a long time to see the series all the way to the end. That's a long stretch for actors, for audiences, for budgets...


----------



## TheSword (Jul 27, 2021)

It’s gonna be 8 series, as planned by Rafe Judkins the showrunner  (can always change) First book probably does need stretching across 2. A hell of a lot happens and a lot of the middle ones will be condensed. It makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 27, 2021)

I've never gotten into the books, so it will be fun watching this fresh.


----------



## Yora (Jul 27, 2021)

TheSword said:


> I don’t quite get that? Game of Thrones was written in 1996. The books were made popular by the TV show a decade and a half later.



A  Feast For Crows came out in 2005.
A Dance with Dragon came out in 2011, the same year as Season 1.
With the expectation of more books coming during the shows run.

The last Wheel of Time book will be 9 years ago when this show comes out. And that was book 15.


----------



## Gradine (Jul 27, 2021)

I mean, from the production quality alone it seems like to be closer to GoT than Shannara. Certainly a lot more prestige TV coming out of Prime than MTV


----------



## pukunui (Jul 27, 2021)

I only managed to make it partway through book 5 before I got sick of the repetitive plots and repetitive characters.

From what I can recall, there were about 3 or 4 interchangeable male protagonists and about the same number of female ones. I remember thinking the series could have been much shorter and more streamlined if he’d condensed all his characters down into one or two.

Anyway, my point is, I don’t have fond memories of this series so I will most likely give this a miss … especially if they are trying to be faithful to the books, as a poster above stated. That tells me there will be minimal condensing of characters / plots.

Nevertheless, I shall withhold a final judgment until the series is out and people are talking about it.

EDIT: For what it’s worth, I was not a fan of the Shannara books either. All I can really remember of that series is the author’s overuse of the term “tendrils of mist”.

Also, I haven’t read any of the GoT books. I enjoyed the series (but agree that the show didn’t stick the landing).


----------



## Gradine (Jul 27, 2021)

If Season 1 is only half of book 1, but they've got it all plotted out in Season 8? I think they're definitely planning to consolidate quite a bit.

Does anyone know if Sanderson is involved at all?


----------



## TheSword (Jul 27, 2021)

Yora said:


> A  Feast For Crows came out in 2005.
> A Dance with Dragon came out in 2011, the same year as Season 1.
> With the expectation of more books coming during the shows run.
> 
> The last Wheel of Time book will be 9 years ago when this show comes out. And that was book 15.



That’s fair. There could be the element of freshness to GOT, it’s kind of what I meant by the unfinished nature of it being exciting.

A lot will depend on how existing fans react to the adaption and whether it can capture new viewers like Morrus and get them hooked.

Luckily book 1 is a really story of its own accord and is frequently near the top of best fantasy book lists. If they can do a great adaption and writing, with a cast that can bring it to life and a decent cinematography I think it could be a winner. That’s a lot of ifs, but I really do hope so.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 27, 2021)

Gradine said:


> If Season 1 is only half of book 1, but they've got it all plotted out in Season 8? I think they're definitely planning to consolidate quite a bit.
> 
> Does anyone know if Sanderson is involved at all?



Brandon Sanderson and Harriet McDougal (Jordan’s Widow) are both described as Consulting Producers. Harriet was Jordan’s editor so it’s very promising that she is on board.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 27, 2021)

TheSword said:


> I don’t quite get that? Game of Thrones was written in 1996. The books were made popular by the TV show a decade and a half later.



The books were still ongoing successes, as people still believed the series would continue to be published. Wheel of Time hasn't been published in years and hasn't been relevant for far longer than that. I don't know if it's quite as irrelevant at Shannara, but it's close.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 27, 2021)

Amazon has produced a number of truly excellent shows, which MTV has not, so it's got that going for it, and shows like the Witcher show that, post-GOT, producers of fantasy series have put real money toward productions since. So this will look good.

I only got halfway through the first brick of a book, I think, and found it completely unmemorable. I will certainly watch an episode or two, but have no expectation of how it'll go.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 27, 2021)

I saw an interesting fact that A Song of Ice and Fire has sold 90 million copies.

Wheel of Time has sold 90 million copies also…. before it’s TV series has come out. Wheel of time certainly is a well established piece of fiction. Love it or hate it. It has been successful.

It’s been greenlit for series 2 filming already which is a good show of confidence from Amazon too!


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 27, 2021)

Low expectations the books aren't even that good.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 27, 2021)

TheSword said:


> I saw an interesting fact that A Song of Ice and Fire has sold 90 million copies.
> 
> Wheel of Time has sold 90 million copies also…. It before it’s TV series has come out. Wheel of time certainly is a well established piece of fiction. Love it or hate it. It has been successful.
> 
> It’s been greenlit for series 2 filming already which is a good show of confidence from Amazon too!




 With 3 times the books out. Sort of implies it's 1/3rd as popular.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 27, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> With 3 times the books out. Sort of implies it's 1/3rd as popular.



Well according to this thread, few people got past book 5 

The fact that these sales were done without a TV series though is telling. I actually think ASOIAF has overtaken WOT now but I’m intrigued to see what happens.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 27, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Well according to this thread, few people got past book 5
> 
> The fact that it was done without the series though is telling. I actually think ASOIAF has overtaken WOT but I’m intrigued to see what happens.




 I think I gave up book 7.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> I think I gave up book 7.



Interestingly I’ve just seen figures suggesting the first four books sold 12 million copies up to 2011 when series 1 came out. The five have now sold 90 million. Not a bad mark up. So WOT starting with 90 million even with 14 books isn’t bad either.


----------



## Gradine (Jul 28, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> I think I gave up book 7.



I love that anytime Wheel of Time comes up it always becomes a "so what book did you give up on?" discussion





....it was Book 7 for me too


----------



## Gradine (Jul 28, 2021)

Also:

ASOIAF Fans: <reads _A Feast for Crows_> you mean we have to go a _whole one book _without following up on my favorite characters?
WoT Fans:


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Gradine said:


> I love that anytime Wheel of Time comes up it always becomes a "so what book did you give up on?" discussion
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see that a lot. I don’t think there’s any doubt that the series will by its nature resolve a lot of the issues. Particular when those books are gonna have to be condensed to at least 2 books per season. It will do the story good.

I hope it also encourages people to give it another go.

Just a suggestion, the Audio books are excellent so if you found the books hard going but fancy following I’d highly recommend them. I’ve read the book series a half dozen times and listened to the audio books twice through. I’d probably stick to the audio books when I go through again.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Gradine said:


> Also:
> 
> ASOIAF Fans: <reads _A Feast for Crows_> you mean we have to go a _whole one book _without following up on my favorite characters?
> WoT Fans:



And wait 5 years.


----------



## Gradine (Jul 28, 2021)

I mean, I guess if I started the audio books now I might be able to finish them before the show ends it 8 season run


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Gradine said:


> I mean, I guess if I started the audio books now I might be able to finish them before the show ends it 8 season run



 they’re about 38 hours each? How much commuting/running/painting do you do? Lol

Though value for money isn’t bad. 38 hours for a £6.99 audible.com credit!


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Here’s a transcript of the interview with Rafe at Comic-con. Some interesting stuff, particularly about themes and the productions team.






						SDCC Amazon Panel: Rafe Judkins
					






					docs.google.com
				




“RJ: I am so lucky with this show to have an unbelievable team with me from our producer, David Brown, who did Outlander and our [executive producers] Mike Weber and Marigo Kehoe who did The Crown, everything good you’ve ever heard of, and then the writing staff, too. It was important to me that we brought different kinds of storytelling to the show.

My number two on the show is a woman named Amanda Kate Shuman who is an incredible writer who doesn’t really like or care about fantasy at all, and so she always made sure that our characters felt authentic and real. 

And our director, of course, Uta Briesewitz, who is incredible from Westworld and Stranger Things and every show that you’ve watched and loved, she’s directed, and she came in with such a strong vision of what this world could look like and how to capture it again in a way that felt really grounded.”


----------



## Gradine (Jul 28, 2021)

TheSword said:


> they’re about 38 hours each? How much commuting/running/painting do you do? Lol
> 
> Though value for money isn’t bad. 38 hours for a £6.99 audible.com credit!



My Boss: What have you been listening to the past four months?
Me: <points to this post>


----------



## Umbran (Jul 28, 2021)

TheSword said:


> The books were made popular by the TV show a decade and a half later.




They were already popular, award-winning books before the TV show.  The first book didn't rocket to sales success quickly, as it was in 1996 and it still took time for word to get around.  But the second and third books both made the New York Times Bestseller lists for their years.  The fourth hit the #1 hardcover fiction spot on that list in its year.  

A Game of Thrones (1996) – Locus Award winner, World Fantasy Award and Nebula Award nominee, 1997
A Clash of Kings (1998) – Locus Award winner, Nebula Award nominee, 1999
A Storm of Swords (2000) – Locus Award winner, Hugo Award and Nebula Awards nominee, 2001
A Feast for Crows (2005) – Hugo, Locus, and British Fantasy Awards nominee, 2006 

The show, years later, made the books popular _again_.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 28, 2021)

Umbran said:


> They were already popular, award-winning books before the TV show.  The first book didn't rocket to sales success quickly, as it was in 1996 and it still took time for word to get around.  But the second and third books both made the New York Times Bestseller lists for their years.  The fourth hit the #1 hardcover fiction spot on that list in its year.
> 
> A Game of Thrones (1996) – Locus Award winner, World Fantasy Award and Nebula Award nominee, 1997
> A Clash of Kings (1998) – Locus Award winner, Nebula Award nominee, 1999
> ...




 They were good as well. 

 Damn 4 SoF&I books in 9 years.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 28, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Damn 4 SoF&I books in 9 years.




There was a time when the man was a machine.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 28, 2021)

Umbran said:


> There was a time when the man was a machine.




 Yeah to mevhe kind of straddles that line between the Brooks/Eddings/Feist era and the newer vstyle and rise of the net.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 28, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Yeah to mevhe kind of straddles that line between the Brooks/Eddings/Feist era and the newer vstyle and rise of the net.




To be fair, he does still do a lot of work - he's done fine editing, and writing other related stories.  He just can't seem to finish this.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jul 28, 2021)

I can't even remember which WoT book I got up to. They just kept going and going...

I think I got up to 9. People just kept lending me their copies.

Hmmm, reading that back makes it sound like I hate them. I don't. They're perfectly fine if I can overlook the rampant sexism and Jordan's spanking fetish.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

DrunkonDuty said:


> I can't even remember which WoT book I got up to. They just kept going and going...
> 
> I think I got up to 9. People just kept lending me their copies.
> 
> Hmmm, reading that back makes it sound like I hate them. I don't. They're perfectly fine if I can overlook the rampant sexism and Jordan's spanking fetish.



The nice thing about the show is they get chance to re-edit the story to take out the eye rolling and spanking. The show can focus on the strong female characters with great arcs, the diverse cast/world, the western imperial supremacy turned on its head. There are themes in WOT that could resonate with a modern audience.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Thinking about it, the lack of gratuitous sex and full frontal nudity may hurt WOTs chances in comparison to GOT though. Lol


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jul 28, 2021)

TheSword said:


> It’s a worry for me. Though Shannara was only a very loose adaption.



That's an understatement.  "Barely recognizable" is the term I'd use  

Re: WoT, I gave up on book 4.  I hope the show won't be too rigid in it's adaptation, because otherwise we'll end up with an entire episode describing the dark road.  And how dark it is.  And how long it is.  And how slow it is.  For 56 pages...er...60 minutes...


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Jul 28, 2021)

I stopped at book 3 the first time, but then made it through the book series on the second attempt, but it started to drag at around 5. I remember really having to power through and take more breaks before getting back to the series. One of the reasons I got a Kindle was so that I wouldn't have to lug those wrist-cracker books around.

There is an awful lot that can be condensed to make the series shorter. Game of Thrones had to add stuff, and by stuff I mean entire seasons, whereas WoT will need to remove content.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Sacrosanct said:


> That's an understatement.  "Barely recognizable" is the term I'd use
> 
> Re: WoT, I gave up on book 4.  I hope the show won't be too rigid in it's adaptation, because otherwise we'll end up with an entire episode describing the dark road.  And how dark it is.  And how long it is.  And how slow it is.  For 56 pages...er...60 minutes...



Ha ha. I don’t know if you want spoilers but the first season is going to cover a lot of ground. I think my earlier post was wrong and they could be covering the first two books in series 1, judging by the episode titles.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> One of the reasons I got a Kindle was so that I wouldn't have to lug those wrist-cracker books around.



I feel your pain!


----------



## payn (Jul 28, 2021)

Genre specific shows like WoT are going to need good common elements to rise above the sub-genre. GoT has excellent political intrigue and hell of a slow burn mystery in the background. Those are elements everybody finds appealing; general speaking. The fact that the fantasy elements were dialed down to 1 in GoT helps a lot with the general viewing public too. Another well received series that transcends its genre is The Expanse for basically all the same reasons as GoT. The Expanse may not be GoT level of zeitgeist but its as close as I can see from Amazon offerings to date. Another thing going in GoT favor is HBO having a lot of experience in executing highly rated series.  

I have not read any WoT (despite being a D&D nerd I dislike most fantasy literature) so I cant speak to the material. It will need some classic elements to raise it above another fantasy series. Along, of course, great casting and execution by amazon.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The books were still ongoing successes, as people still believed the series would continue to be published. Wheel of Time hasn't been published in years and hasn't been relevant for far longer than that. I don't know if it's quite as irrelevant at Shannara, but it's close.



I mean, they continue to sell well and are in print 9 years after the final one came out. The conclusion, for what it is worth and no spoilers, is the cosmic and metaphysical antithesis of the end of Game of Thrones: completely earned and justified every sentence in the prior tomes.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Amazon has produced a number of truly excellent shows, which MTV has not, so it's got that going for it, and shows like the Witcher show that, post-GOT, producers of fantasy series have put real money toward productions since. So this will look good.
> 
> I only got halfway through the first brick of a book, I think, and found it completely unmemorable. I will certainly watch an episode or two, but have no expectation of how it'll go.



Jordan's prose is dense (his stated main literary influences were Leo Tolstoy, Charles Dickens and Jane Austen), but there is a lot of reward in reading the books. I would recommend taking a second look, if you have the time to read these days. Nobody, and I mean nobody, writes battles like Robert Jordan did.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

pukunui said:


> I only managed to make it partway through book 5 before I got sick of the repetitive plots and repetitive characters.
> 
> From what I can recall, there were about 3 or 4 interchangeable male protagonists and about the same number of female ones. I remember thinking the series could have been much shorter and more streamlined if he’d condensed all his characters down into one or two.
> 
> ...



I had the benefit of jumping in midstream, so I was able to to read the first 8 books in a week (I was 15 and it was Summer, good times). No character is redundant in the grand scheme, which astoundingly does coalesce in the end.


----------



## darjr (Jul 28, 2021)

A friend of mine LOVES them. All of them. I bought the first one and never read it.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

Umbran said:


> They were already popular, award-winning books before the TV show.  The first book didn't rocket to sales success quickly, as it was in 1996 and it still took time for word to get around.  But the second and third books both made the New York Times Bestseller lists for their years.  The fourth hit the #1 hardcover fiction spot on that list in its year.
> 
> A Game of Thrones (1996) – Locus Award winner, World Fantasy Award and Nebula Award nominee, 1997
> A Clash of Kings (1998) – Locus Award winner, Nebula Award nominee, 1999
> ...



The show made the books popular on a different level. When I read the books, it was hard to find anyone to talk about them with. Ten years later, everyone was talking about the Targaryens at the water cooler. And now Google autocorrect recognizes "Targaryen" as a word.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Ha ha. I don’t know if you want spoilers but the first season is going to cover a lot of ground. I think my earlier post was wrong and they could be covering the first two books in series 1, judging by the episode titles.



That would work with the 8 season math.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

payn said:


> Genre specific shows like WoT are going to need good common elements to rise above the sub-genre. GoT has excellent political intrigue and hell of a slow burn mystery in the background. Those are elements everybody finds appealing; general speaking. The fact that the fantasy elements were dialed down to 1 in GoT helps a lot with the general viewing public too. Another well received series that transcends its genre is The Expanse for basically all the same reasons as GoT. The Expanse may not be GoT level of zeitgeist but its as close as I can see from Amazon offerings to date. Another thing going in GoT favor is HBO having a lot of experience in executing highly rated series.
> 
> I have not read any WoT (despite being a D&D nerd I dislike most fantasy literature) so I cant speak to the material. It will need some classic elements to raise it above another fantasy series. Along, of course, great casting and execution by amazon.



Robert Jordan was a history buff who joined the military and  served two tours of duty in Vietnam as a helicopter gunner (awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with oak leaf cluster, the Bronze Star with "V" and oak leaf cluster, and two Vietnamese Gallantry Crosses with palm). After Vietnam, he got a degree in physics from the Citadel and was a nuclear engineer for the Navy. 

His approach to fantasy fiction is informed by this rather particular background: his battle scenes are top of the line, his overall war scenarios (who is fighting who in the big picture, and wargame level details of conflicts) are amazing. The magical system of the books is logical in a way few fantasy writers even attempt.

There is a lot to build off of here.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Jul 28, 2021)

I so wish I had had the Kindle when I was working my way through the Malazan Book of the Fallen series!



TheSword said:


> I feel your pain!




It's easy to forget now, but Game of Thrones threw a lot at viewers. Complicated and shifting alliances, names that were a mouthful (balanced out by Jon, Ned, Sam, and the like), multiple cultures and religious systems, a whole internal history that informed the present. Ironically, I'd say Shannara Chronicles demanded less of viewers and it still failed. It remains to be seen if Rand Al'Thor will become a household word. 

Coming into the pandemic world, though, it won't have that watercooler base, though, not in the same way that GoT did, where you would come into the office the next day and be sitting around talking about what just happened.


----------



## payn (Jul 28, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Robert Jordan was a history buff who joined the military and  served two tours of duty in Vietnam as a helicopter gunner (awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with oak leaf cluster, the Bronze Star with "V" and oak leaf cluster, and two Vietnamese Gallantry Crosses with palm). After Vietnam, he got a degree in physics from the Citadel and was a nuclear engineer for the Navy.
> 
> His approach to fantasy fiction is informed by this rather particular background: his battle scenes are top of the line, his overall war scenarios (who is fighting who in the big picture, and wargame level details of conflicts) are amazing. The magical system of the books is logical in a way few fantasy writers even attempt.
> 
> There is a lot to build off of here.



Sounds great, but also rather specific. Reminds me of Tom Clancy and his love of technical specs for military things. That might not be a fair comparison, but its what im thinking of. This is fine, as long as there are other elements that can grab general audiences and pull them in.


----------



## UngainlyTitan (Jul 28, 2021)

WoT should do better than Shannara, it should have more budget at the very minimum. I got to book 7 I think, it was a long time ago.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

payn said:


> Sounds great, but also rather specific. Reminds me of Tom Clancy and his love of technical specs for military things. That might not be a fair comparison, but its what im thinking of. This is fine, as long as there are other elements that can grab general audiences and pull them in.



Well, there are quite a few things: politics, romance, lots of opportunities for costume and art design to show off, good versus evil on a cosmic stage, swordfights, trippy dream sequences, heists, wizard duels, Hogwarts-y school shennanigans...it's a trove of stuff.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)




----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)




----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

Wow, hadn't seen any of these, this is great:


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 28, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Jordan's prose is dense (his stated main literary influences were Leo Tolstoy, Charles Dickens and Jane Austen), but there is a lot of reward in reading the books. I would recommend taking a second look, if you have the time to read these days. Nobody, and I mean nobody, writes battles like Robert Jordan did.



Nah, I'm good. I have a to-read list dozens, maybe hundreds of books long. Life is too short to read several hundred pages of a book to get to the several hundred page book where things allegedly get better.

(This also goes for TV shows that I've been told to "power through" the first season before the show picks up, 22+ hours in.)

I know how many hours of book reading I've likely got left in my life, and I want to make the most of them.

I know other people love his work, and I endorse them enjoying it, but I'm in a one strike and you're out mindset nowadays.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Nah, I'm good. I have a to-read list dozens, maybe hundreds of books long. Life is too short to read several hundred pages of a book to get to the several hundred page book where things allegedly get better.
> 
> (This also goes for TV shows that I've been told to "power through" the first season before the show picks up, 22+ hours in.)
> 
> ...



That's fair: I enjoyed the prose from the outset, so it was never a trudge: the wait for each of books 9-14 to be released was painful, but they did come out, so it has that going for it.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jul 28, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Nah, I'm good. I have a to-read list dozens, maybe hundreds of books long. Life is too short to read several hundred pages of a book to get to the several hundred page book where things allegedly get better.
> 
> (This also goes for TV shows that I've been told to "power through" the first season before the show picks up, 22+ hours in.)
> 
> ...



You and be both.  When I was 13 and had all the time in the world?  Sure.  Now, pushing 50?  My spare time is super limited and short, so I will move on.  I recently did that with Tigana.  Got 200 pages in and it wasn't keeping my interest at all, so I moved on to other books I'd enjoy more.


----------



## jolt (Jul 28, 2021)

By the time I started reading WoT, the first 4 books were already out and Book 5 came out soon after.  For the most part, I enjoyed the first 6 books.  There were some very weird pacing issues prior but Book 7 drove me nuts.  That was '96 or '97 and I didn't touch the series again until 2018 when I bought the remaining books and powered through the series.  The pacing issues continue.  I think it was Book 8 where I was halfway through it and realized that everything that was happening was before the end of Book 7.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

jolt said:


> By the time I started reading WoT, the first 4 books were already out and Book 5 came out soon after.  For the most part, I enjoyed the first 6 books.  There were some very weird pacing issues prior but Book 7 drove me nuts.  That was '96 or '97 and I didn't touch the series again until 2018 when I bought the remaining books and powered through the series.  The pacing issues continue.  I think it was Book 8 where I was halfway through it and realized that everything that was happening was before the end of Book 7.



You might be thinking of book 10, which is almost entirely a chronicle of how people throughout the world respond to the Event at the end of book 9.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 28, 2021)

Sacrosanct said:


> You and be both.  When I was 13 and had all the time in the world?  Sure.  Now, pushing 50?  My spare time is super limited and short, so I will move on.  I recently did that with Tigana.  Got 200 pages in and it wasn't keeping my interest at all, so I moved on to other books I'd enjoy more.



It's a liberating moment when one finally realizes it's OK to walk away from a book, which much of the world argued was a moral failing for many years.


----------



## thom_likes_gaming (Jul 28, 2021)

For what it's worth, both wife and I read through the whole series twice. We're skewing the average here, I guess


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> It's a liberating moment when one finally realizes it's OK to walk away from a book, which much of the world argued was a moral failing for many years.



That happened.tpe for the first time with Sword of Shannara, which I _hated_ profusely.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Sacrosanct said:


> You and be both.  When I was 13 and had all the time in the world?  Sure.  Now, pushing 50?  My spare time is super limited and short, so I will move on.  I recently did that with Tigana.  Got 200 pages in and it wasn't keeping my interest at all, so I moved on to other books I'd enjoy more.



That’s the advantage of a good story coming out on TV!


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

I love those little snapshots! Thom Merillon is one of the coolest characters in the books. I’m fascinated to see how he comes across.

I also think the Heron marked blades are a beautiful addition to the lore. Such a good idea.

There’s a lot for anyone who loves D&D to enjoy in this series. I think it’s actually one of the most D&D-like fantasy books with a bard (albeit non-magical), rogue, fighter, magus, couple of sorceresses, Ranger etc.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

TheSword said:


> I love those little snapshots! Thom Merillon is one of the coolest characters in the books. I’m fascinated to see how he comes across.
> 
> I also think the Heron marked blades are a beautiful addition to the lore. Such a good idea.
> 
> There’s a lot for anyone who loves D&D to enjoy in this series. I think it’s actually one of the most D&D-like fantasy books with a bard (albeit non-magical), rogue, fighter, magus, couple of sorceresses, Ranger etc.



One of the proximate causes of Robert Jordan getting into writing fantasy was buying the Red Box and DMing for his step-son and friends.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jul 28, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> That happened.tpe for the first time with Sword of Shannara, which I _hated_ profusely.



"That's a rip off of Tolkien!"
"Yeah, one the average person can actually read..."


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

Sacrosanct said:


> "That's a rip off of Tolkien!"
> "Yeah, one the average person can actually read..."



It's like the boring parts of Tolkien, without the cool stuff like the songs and the walking.

Seriously, though, Sword of Shannara made me livid when I was 13.


----------



## Zaukrie (Jul 28, 2021)

I stopped in book 3 or 4....so repetitive. Ugh. I don't get the love at all. 

I'll watch, because it is free to me.....


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> I stopped in book 3 or 4....so repetitive. Ugh. I don't get the love at all.
> 
> I'll watch, because it is free to me.....



The prose style, the characters, the world building, the action, the attention to minute detail while having a big picture working.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The prose style, the characters, the world building, the action, the attention to minute detail while having a big picture working.



Plus amazing character development, really quite despicable villains that have their own motivations and are relatable, amazing magic system, some of the best fight scenes I’ve read - particularly Edmonds Field and Dumais’ Wells. This spine tingling stuff. I can’t think of a fantasy book that can beat those two set pieces.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Plus amazing character development, really quite despicable villains that have their own motivations and are relatable, amazing magic system, some of the best fight scenes I’ve read - particularly Edmonds Field and Dumais’ Wells. This spine tingling stuff. I can’t think of a fantasy book that can beat those two set pieces.



Just in terms of literary quality, I have to reach for Tolkien to find even a proximate equivalent.


----------



## Zaukrie (Jul 28, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The prose style, the characters, the world building, the action, the attention to minute detail while having a big picture working.



Could have been half as long.......but I get that's why there are thousands of flavors of beer or wine....we don't all have the same taste.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> Could have been half as long.......but I get that's why there are thousands of flavors of beer or wine....we don't all have the same taste.



Honestly it could have gone longer and I would have been happy. The journey is almost as good as the destination for me.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

I’m impressed by the fan following on Twitter. There are hundreds of questions and retweets.

One thing I like about this series is that support seems to be very gender balanced. Out of our group of friends me and Sasha have read them. So one lad, one lass. In the Twitter comments there seems to be good balance between the same.

I can’t say the same for a lot of fantasy books.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

TheSword said:


> I’m impressed by the fan following on Twitter. There are hundreds of questions and retweets.
> 
> One thing I like about this series is that support seems to be very gender balanced. Out of our group of friends me and Sasha have read them. So one lad, one lass. In the Twitter comments there seems to be good balance between the same.
> 
> I can’t say the same for a lot of fantasy books.



Robert Jordan was personally pleased that the publisher told him the books had achieved a four quadrant appeal, having pretty equal readership among men and women, both young and old.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Robert Jordan was personally pleased that the publisher told him the books had achieved a four quadrant appeal, having pretty equal readership among men and women, both young and old.



I think Harriet’s influence did fundamentally change the approach and tone of the novels.


----------



## Lidgar (Jul 28, 2021)

Here’s hoping it’s good.

I really loved books 1-3. In many ways, it could have been a nice trilogy. Books 4 and 5 also have some great moments. Like Brandon Sanderson, Robert Jordan knew how to write a tense finale when he wanted to. It then degraded steadily until Brandon came in to pull it together. He did a respectable job, but there where just so many characters and side plots at that point it was all kind of a mess.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 28, 2021)

Gradine said:


> I love that anytime Wheel of Time comes up it always becomes a "so what book did you give up on?" discussion
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am definitely biased as someone who has read and reread the Silmarillion, but I don't really get why people "give up" on reading WoT. Like, there is the "slog", sure, but even that is not that bad.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 28, 2021)

I do think that the entire side arc with the Shaido could be removed without any negative impact on the series, but that is genuinely my...only big complaint with the series.


----------



## Zaukrie (Jul 28, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I am definitely biased as someone who has read and reread the Silmarillion, but I don't really get why people "give up" on reading WoT. Like, there is the "slog", sure, but even that is not that bad.



It has been years....but my recollection was that I felt like I was reading the same story over and over, and that the main character never seemed to learn anything. But, like I said, it has been a very long time, and I could be very wrong about that. Why give up? Because there are dozens of other books in my house I haven't read.....I think I was also, at that time, tired of "man gets credit for saving the world while women do all the work".....which, of course, could also be 100% wrong.....


----------



## Zaukrie (Jul 28, 2021)

I think the show will be much better than Shanara, but nowhere near GoT as a phenomena.......


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I am definitely biased as someone who has read and reread the Silmarillion, but I don't really get why people "give up" on reading WoT. Like, there is the "slog", sure, but even that is not that bad.



Even the "slog" is an enjoyable read for me, particularly on re-read now that I am not anxious about the ending.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I do think that the entire side arc with the Shaido could be removed without any negative impact on the series, but that is genuinely my...only big complaint with the series.



Alternatively, if the Shaido arc was it's own novel and not interspersed across 4 novels with other plotlines, it may have read better.

I expect maybe a single episode of the TV show will cover it, though.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> It has been years....but my recollection was that I felt like I was reading the same story over and over, and that the main character never seemed to learn anything. But, like I said, it has been a very long time, and I could be very wrong about that. Why give up? Because there are dozens of other books in my house I haven't read.....I think I was also, at that time, tired of "man gets credit for saving the world while women do all the work".....which, of course, could also be 100% wrong.....



The characters learn and grow, but it's not quickly jumping from one growth point to the next, it takes time and work on their part, with backsliding. That last part isn't quite accurate, either...


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The characters learn and grow, but it's not quickly jumping from one growth point to the next, it takes time and work on their part, with backsliding. That last part isn't quite accurate, either...



Yeah, women get plenty of credit. Some pretty awesome opportunities to change the world in major ways.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Yeah, women get plenty of credit. Some pretty awesome opportunities to change the world in major ways.



A lot of the most interesting stuff with the female characters does come after the first few books, I do have to say, particularly as they embroiled in the politics of the White Tower.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> A lot of the most interesting stuff with the female characters does come after the first few books, I do have to say, particularly as they embroiled in the politics of the White Tower.



Sure, it comes as their powers grow. They get their fair share of Moments of Awesome. Particularly Egwene and Nyneave


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 28, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> It has been years....but my recollection was that I felt like I was reading the same story over and over, and that the main character never seemed to learn anything. But, like I said, it has been a very long time, and I could be very wrong about that. Why give up? Because there are dozens of other books in my house I haven't read.....I think I was also, at that time, tired of "man gets credit for saving the world while women do all the work".....which, of course, could also be 100% wrong.....



While I think those assessments are off from the mark, I don't blame you at all for seeing the books that way. Rand in particular has a whole middle period where he refuses to budge, and then things happen that make this worse, and then eventually he has a moment of revelation that also brings spring to the land because he is the land. 

As for the women in the book, I'd say the latter 2/3 of the book counters that impression very well, _but_ stay away from fandom discourse if you want to not see just...incredible amounts of psuedo-academic misogyny. Seriously...it's bad. Even when I disliked some of the female characters from my first read (back in like 2010, when the Robert Jordan was still alive), I found the discourse about Egwene and Nynaeve pretty disturbing. Later read-throughs (I did my 4th, I think, when the series was finally finished, all in one long shot through the series, skimming through some stuff I don't love in the middle), have actually brought me round to be being huge fans of both characters, but they also just flat out get better as the series goes on. All the characters do.


Parmandur said:


> Even the "slog" is an enjoyable read for me, particularly on re-read now that I am not anxious about the ending.



There are parts I enjoy, but the only reason I still love Perrin is that the whole Two Rivers arc came after the slog and redeemed his whiny uncommunicative butt.


Parmandur said:


> Alternatively, if the Shaido arc was it's own novel and not interspersed across 4 novels with other plotlines, it may have read better.
> 
> I expect maybe a single episode of the TV show will cover it, though.



Yeah, I could see maybe 2-3 episodes, at most. Stay true to the books! LOL


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 28, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Sure, it comes as their powers grow. They get their fair share of Moments of Awesome. Particularly Egwene and Nyneave



Nynaeve's ride is really good, but I did spend a decent amount of time wishing that her story would at some point become about her. Egwene...oh man I loved her by the end. Can't really say anything more without spoilers.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 28, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Nynaeve's ride is really good, but I did spend a decent amount of time wishing that her story would at some point become about her. Egwene...oh man I loved her by the end. Can't really say anything more without spoilers.



Boss!


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> stay away from fandom discourse if you want to not see just...incredible amounts of psuedo-academic misogyny.



Heck, that's kind of true across the board, unfortunately.


doctorbadwolf said:


> There are parts I enjoy, but the only reason I still love Perrin is that the whole Two Rivers arc came after the slog and redeemed his whiny uncommunicative butt.



I see where you are coming from, but to have a strong arc you need a starting point. One of the main themes Jordan was going for was the fraught and imperfect nature of communication, which was a bugaboo for him with most fiction (everyone meets back up together and gets perfectly on the same page so the story can continue): his characters get better at communicating, drastically, as they learn, but the fog of war remains at all times.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 28, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Nynaeve's ride is really good, but I did spend a decent amount of time wishing that her story would at some point become about her. Egwene...oh man I loved her by the end. Can't really say anything more without spoilers.



The pay-off was legit.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 28, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The pay-off was legit.



Yes. There are going to be some moments in the final season that will be hard to pull off. 

Also I just cannot wait to see these actors in their roles. And like, what will the world of dreams look like!? Are they expanding Moraine's role early on rather than waiting to flesh out her story? If so that is potentially rad! How many of us will realise puns we never noticed in print one actors start saying words out loud at us!? 

Seriously, some are obvious like Perrin's hammer's name, but sometimes my wife will show me a post from the WoT subreddit and I just...cannot.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 29, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yes. There are going to be some moments in the final season that will be hard to pull off.
> 
> Also I just cannot wait to see these actors in their roles. And like, what will the world of dreams look like!? Are they expanding Moraine's role early on rather than waiting to flesh out her story? If so that is potentially rad! How many of us will realise puns we never noticed in print one actors start saying words out loud at us!?
> 
> Seriously, some are obvious like Perrin's hammer's name, but sometimes my wife will show me a post from the WoT subreddit and I just...cannot.



It's tricky, but they have a real shot to make something special. I'm sure pun revelations will be abundant.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jul 29, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> It's like the boring parts of Tolkien, without the cool stuff like the songs and the walking.
> 
> Seriously, though, Sword of Shannara made me livid when I was 13.



No knowing how to pronounce "Shea".  I get it.  It's SHE-a, or is it shay?


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 29, 2021)

Sacrosanct said:


> No knowing how to pronounce "Shea".  I get it.  It's SHE-a, or is it shay?



I was literally offended that it was such a blatant rip-off, and reading it was a chore. I've mellowed out and given Brook a chance since, but still the only book of his I've ever actually enjoyed is his autobiography, the rest are just kind of like eating Wheatabix with no milk or yogurt, or water.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 29, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I was literally offended that it was such a blatant rip-off, and reading it was a chore. I've mellowed out and given Brook a chance since, but still the only book of his I've ever actually enjoyed is his autobiography, the rest are just kind of like eating Wheatabix with no milk or yogurt, or water.



I’m personally offended by this! 

Seriously though, ever read the Magic Kingdom books, or Running With The Demon?


----------



## Zaukrie (Jul 29, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> A lot of the most interesting stuff with the female characters does come after the first few books, I do have to say, particularly as they embroiled in the politics of the White Tower.



It is possible I stopped before that.....


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 29, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’m personally offended by this!
> 
> Seriously though, ever read the Magic Kingdom books, or Running With The Demon?



I read the first Magic Kingdom book, but it really didn't do it for me: it was better than Sword of Shannara?


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 29, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> It is possible I stopped before that.....



Pretty sure the real meat there comes well after the third book.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 29, 2021)

TheSword said:


> So Season 1 comes to Amazon in November this year. Covering half of book 1, The Eye of the World.
> 
> Will it be the next Game of Thrones? (With a better ending). Or be a damp Squibb like Shannara Chronicles (nothing against the serious but wasn’t a riveting success).
> 
> Having Rosamund Pike as a lead fills me with hope. She’s a boss actor!



I hope it doesn't bomb.  One of my old D&D buddies is partially responsible for getting this made.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 29, 2021)

Yora said:


> A  Feast For Crows came out in 2005.
> A Dance with Dragon came out in 2011, the same year as Season 1.
> *With the expectation of more books coming during the shows run.*
> 
> The last Wheel of Time book will be 9 years ago when this show comes out. And that was book 15.



Not by any of his fans. We knew better.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 29, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> I think I gave up book 7.



They were good up until book 6.  Then it appears that he wasn't sure what to do for like 2-3 books(lots of pages for inches of plot advancement), then he regains his focus and they get good again.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 29, 2021)

TheSword said:


> they’re about 38 hours each? How much commuting/running/painting do you do? Lol
> 
> Though value for money isn’t bad. 38 hours for a £6.99 audible.com credit!



If you live in Los Angeles, 38 hours of commuting is like 2 weeks


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 29, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I do think that the entire side arc with the Shaido could be removed without any negative impact on the series, but that is genuinely my...only big complaint with the series.



Mine is that books 7-8 or 9 had a lot of pages and almost no plot advancement.  You could cut out the vast majority of those books without really changing anything.  And the Shaido.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 29, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> *Nynaeve's ride is really good, but I did spend a decent amount of time wishing that her story would at some point become about her*. Egwene...oh man I loved her by the end. Can't really say anything more without spoilers.



With less braid tugging.


----------



## MGibster (Jul 29, 2021)

When I heard the news I couldn't help but sniff derisively and I've been tugging my braid non-stop between bouts of smoothing my skirt.  I can't wait until they get to season 4-5 and Elayne spends the whole time preparing for, taking, and exiting the bath.  

I kid!  I kid!  Sort of.  I'll give this a chance and I hope it does well.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 29, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> They were good up until book 6.  Then it appears that he wasn't sure what to do for like 2-3 books(lots of pages for inches of plot advancement), then he regains his focus and they get good again.




 I read the wiki ages ago to find out the conclusion. 

 Reading some pieces now to jog the memory. It's been 20 years.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 29, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I read the first Magic Kingdom book, but it really didn't do it for me: it was better than Sword of Shannara?



To be fair, nearly every one of the couple dozen Shannara books that come after are also better than Sword of Shannara, but yes.


Maxperson said:


> Mine is that books 7-8 or 9 had a lot of pages and almost no plot advancement.  You could cut out the vast majority of those books without really changing anything.  And the Shaido.



Eh, I don't really care for the "plot advancement" argument. The characters go through a lot in that section of the story, and do some of their best growth. A lot of Matt's development benefits greatly from the books not buying into the notion that "anything that doesn't drive forward the plot should be cut". 

I agree about the Shaido, though.


Maxperson said:


> With less braid tugging.



Please don't. No forum on Earth needs to be steeped in the anti-Nynaeve discourse.


----------



## MGibster (Jul 29, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Eh, I don't really care for the "plot advancement" argument. The characters go through a lot in that section of the story, and do some of their best growth. A lot of Matt's development benefits greatly from the books not buying into the notion that "anything that doesn't drive forward the plot should be cut".



I would normally agree.  But when you're on the 8th or 9th book with no end in sight it's time for an editor to come along and say, "Pick up the pace."  But it's tough for that to happen when the editor is your wife.  The only thing I remember about Crossroads at Twilight is that Elayne took a bath.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 29, 2021)

Last things I remember is something about dark Aes Sedai. Path of Daggers iirc was the last one I read giving up on winters heart.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 29, 2021)

MGibster said:


> I would normally agree.  But when you're on the 8th or 9th book with no end in sight it's time for an editor to come along and say, "Pick up the pace."  But it's tough for that to happen when the editor is your wife.  The only thing I remember about Crossroads at Twilight is that Elayne took a bath.



I completely disagree. Where a moment or arc exists within a story (toward the beginning, middle, or end) doesn't determine whether it belongs in the story.


----------



## Gammadoodler (Jul 29, 2021)

Sacrosanct said:


> No knowing how to pronounce "Shea".  I get it.  It's SHE-a, or is it shay?



I think that was my first adult fantasy book. It took decades for me to realize that "shay" was an option.


----------



## Gammadoodler (Jul 29, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’m personally offended by this!
> 
> Seriously though, ever read the Magic Kingdom books, or Running With The Demon?



Definitely think the Magic Kingdom books had stronger worldbuilding and characters. 

I read a couple of the Knight of the word books, but they didn't really stick for me. IIRC, there was just a lot of grumpy 90s edginess to the whole affair.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 29, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Please don't. No forum on Earth needs to be steeped in the anti-Nynaeve discourse.



Nothing anti-Nynaeve about it.  I loved the character, but she did tug her braids an awful lot.  It was a joke and nothing more.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 29, 2021)

MGibster said:


> I would normally agree.  But when you're on the 8th or 9th book with no end in sight it's time for an editor to come along and say, "Pick up the pace."  But it's tough for that to happen when the editor is your wife.  The only thing I remember about Crossroads at Twilight is that Elayne took a bath.



It's not as if it's hard to both develop character and advance the plot.  Those books read like Jordan lost his way and wasn't sure where to go, so he went nowhere while spending lots of time on the characters.  When I re-read the series I don't skip those books, but they are the worst of the lot.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 29, 2021)

Gammadoodler said:


> I think that was my first adult fantasy book. It took decades for me to realize that "shay" was an option.



I saw it mostly as Shay-uh.  I went back and forth between that and Shay, but usually fell back to the other.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 29, 2021)

Gammadoodler said:


> Definitely think the Magic Kingdom books had stronger worldbuilding and characters.



I’ve just realized it was this series that I read, not the Shannara series. I don’t remember why I read it, because I wasn’t a fan of “person from the modern real world enters a medieval fantasy world” genre, and all I really remember is the whole “tendrils of mist” thing. I think that might be Terry’s favorite descriptor. (EDIT: Yep. I just googled “Terry Brooks” and “tendrils of mist” and a whole slew of his books from multiple series popped up!)


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 29, 2021)

pukunui said:


> I’ve just realized it was this series that I read, not the Shannara series. I don’t remember why I read it, because I wasn’t a fan of “person from the modern real world enters a medieval fantasy world” genre, and all I really remember is the whole “tendrils of mist” thing. I think that might be Terry’s favorite descriptor. (EDIT: Yep. I just googled “Terry Brooks” and “tendrils of mist” and a whole slew of his books from multiple series popped up!)



For my wife, it was the egregiously common use of "damn" as an exclamation, intensifier, etc. She isn't against swearing at all, it was just like...a lot. 

I tend not to notice stuff like that, which probably helps me enjoy Brooks books more. 

Of course, my favorite of his books are the two Running With The Demons books.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 29, 2021)

Gammadoodler said:


> I think that was my first adult fantasy book. It took decades for me to realize that "shay" was an option.



I always read it as "she".


----------



## Gradine (Jul 29, 2021)

Re: Brooks

Sword is a tough read, and Elfstones isn't a ton better. By Wishsong he's really found his footing, and the Heritage quadrology is pretty excellent, with the middle two books especially bring tight, tense reads (Druid & Elf Queen).

I moved on to other series by the time Shannara continued, so I can't speak to any books beyond that


----------



## Gradine (Jul 29, 2021)

Re: Wheel of Time show

I think there's plenty reason to be optimistic. Rosamund Pike's still riding the Gone Girl money and prestige and wouldn't likely take the jump to the small screen without good reason. If nothing else she's going to be incredibly awesome to watch, as always


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 29, 2021)

Gradine said:


> Re: Brooks
> 
> Sword is a tough read, and Elfstones isn't a ton better. By Wishsong he's really found his footing, and the Heritage quadrology is pretty excellent, with the middle two books especially bring tight, tense reads (Druid & Elf Queen).
> 
> I moved on to other series by the time Shannara continued, so I can't speak to any books beyond that




 Yeah this is how I found the books as well. Druid was so sad. 

 Didn't read Jerle Shannara or beyond. 

 Favorite fantasy in the 90s was the Wurts/Feist Empire trilogy, Feists Serpentwar Saga and the Elenium. 

 Scions of Shannara probably next.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 29, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Yeah this is how I found the books as well. Druid was so sad.
> 
> Didn't read Jerle Shannara or beyond.
> 
> ...



Scions is my favorite Shannara story by far. Walker Boh is cool.  

I remember really liking Elfstones, but I’ve never reread it, so…grain of salt.


----------



## pming (Jul 29, 2021)

Hiya!

 I think I made it to the end of book 2 or the beginning of the 3rd. I'm NOT a "novel reading kinda guy"...give me a RPG rulebook or campaign setting or book on medicinal use of plants or history of concrete use in sidewalks....I'm all over that. But novels...never been my thing. I think it's the "DM in me"...I read something in a novel and think "OH! That's cool...lets see where it goes..." then it goes nowhere; it was just a simple description of something, and my mind wonders off making up stuff about said 'thing'. In short...I can't follow many novels because I'm always adding in my own "background information and history". It gets worse when I've been thinking of some culture as being like Moorish Corsairs...only to find out they are like British Fishermen in the next book. LOL!

As for WoT as as a series: I think it's totally doable. They'll have to "condense" a lot of the exposition into scenery and visuals. Jordan can take three pages to describe a room or a camp site...that can be done in 6 seconds of camera work. They'll also have to have AMAZING actors to intone and 'show' emotions and reactions that give the viewer all the information they need to "get it". Lastly, they REALLY need to play up the more or less "society norms"...and in todays day and age, I'm not sure they have the brass tacks to do that (re: men fight, women cook; men do the heavy lifting, women do the looking after; soldiers do XYZ, citizens do ABC, etc). At least that was one thing that stood out to me in the books; the distinct "places" that sexes and professions had...very 'caste like', I guess.

But I am really looking forward to seeing how they do the Trollocs!  I always pictured them like Warhammer Beastmen.

^_^

Paul L. Ming


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 29, 2021)

Gradine said:


> Re: Brooks
> 
> Sword is a tough read, and Elfstones isn't a ton better. By Wishsong he's really found his footing, and the Heritage quadrology is pretty excellent, with the middle two books especially bring tight, tense reads (Druid & Elf Queen).
> 
> I moved on to other series by the time Shannara continued, so I can't speak to any books beyond that



Elfstones I enjoyed but can’t say is good or bad, and Wishsong is good, for sure. Heritage is the best story, IMO. 

The prequel with Jerle Shannara was also really good, IIRC. I haven’t read the newer stuff yet.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 29, 2021)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> I think I made it to the end of book 2 or the beginning of the 3rd. I'm NOT a "novel reading kinda guy"...give me a RPG rulebook or campaign setting or book on medicinal use of plants or history of concrete use in sidewalks....I'm all over that. But novels...never been my thing. I think it's the "DM in me"...I read something in a novel and think "OH! That's cool...lets see where it goes..." then it goes nowhere; it was just a simple description of something, and my mind wonders off making up stuff about said 'thing'. In short...I can't follow many novels because I'm always adding in my own "background information and history". It gets worse when I've been thinking of some culture as being like Moorish Corsairs...only to find out they are like British Fishermen in the next book. LOL!
> 
> ...



They accidentally released a Moiraine trailer in Germany similar to the one I posted above but a wider shot. It had a heavily shadowed trollock in the background which was bulky and massive.

If you stopped at book 2/3 you probably missed how Jordan turns all those gender expectations on their head with the Aiel. In fact they totally destroy the concept of the superiority of western ‘civilized’ superiority, with an extremely sophisticated culture. The aiel also have a couple of great plot arcs that makes them very interesting characters psychologically.


----------



## pming (Jul 29, 2021)

Hiya!


TheSword said:


> They accidentally released a Moiraine trailer in Germany similar to the one I posted above but a wider shot. It had a heavily shadowed trollock in the background which was bulky and massive.
> 
> If you stopped at book 2/3 you probably missed how Jordan turns all those gender expectations on their head with the Aiel. In fact they totally destroy the concept of the superiority of western ‘civilized’ superiority, with an extremely sophisticated culture. The aiel also have a couple of great plot arcs that makes them very interesting characters psychologically.




Cool! Looks like I'm in for some surprises then! 
It's on my watch-list for sure at any rate...unless something horrible happens, of course.
Thanks for the update.

^_^

Paul L. Ming


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jul 29, 2021)

Gammadoodler said:


> I think that was my first adult fantasy book. It took decades for me to realize that "shay" was an option.



it wasn't until I met Terry before I realized that it's actually pronounced "SHAN-uh-ra" and not "sha-NAR-rah" like I had been pronouncing it for years.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 29, 2021)

Sacrosanct said:


> it wasn't until I met Terry before I realized that it's actually pronounced "SHAN-uh-ra" and not "sha-NAR-rah" like I had been pronouncing it for years.



He probably should have spelt  it differently then


----------



## Gammadoodler (Jul 29, 2021)

Sacrosanct said:


> it wasn't until I met Terry before I realized that it's actually pronounced "SHAN-uh-ra" and not "sha-NAR-rah" like I had been pronouncing it for years.



And Scion is pronounced "SKEE-own"


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Jul 29, 2021)

Nynaeve quickly became my favorite character of the series. She's a character that grew and developed while still keeping her internal compass of right and wrong throughout the series, in the face of world-shattering events. I am looking forward to seeing her come to life in the series.



doctorbadwolf said:


> Nynaeve's ride is really good, but I did spend a decent amount of time wishing that her story would at some point become about her. Egwene...oh man I loved her by the end. Can't really say anything more without spoilers.




I had a Vampire the Masquerade character in the early 90s named John W. Boh, after him. After the three prior books of Allanon being a jerk, his initial skepticism of the druids was understandable! 


doctorbadwolf said:


> Scions is my favorite Shannara story by far. Walker Boh is cool.
> 
> I remember really liking Elfstones, but I’ve never reread it, so…grain of salt.


----------



## TheSword (Jul 29, 2021)

I think one of the things I love about this series is that there is a large cast of key characters, Moiraine, Lan, Rand, Perrin, Matt, Egwene, Nyneave, Thom etc etc. but few seem superfluous. Every single one of them gets to do some things that are awesome, heroic even in a way that totally validates their character. Some of the awesome moments are spine tingling in their awesomeness. Particularly because of the backdrop and world building around it.

I also love from a fantasy point of view how Matt and Perrin are awesome characters that hold their own… particularly towards the end with the others even though they aren’t aes sedai. “Carai an caldazar, carai an ellisande! al ellisande! / “howls filled the night, howls filled with anger and fear. ‘We come’”


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 29, 2021)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> Nynaeve quickly became my favorite character of the series. She's a character that grew and developed while still keeping her internal compass of right and wrong throughout the series, in the face of world-shattering events. I am looking forward to seeing her come to life in the series.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a Vampire the Masquerade character in the early 90s named John W. Boh, after him. After the three prior books of Allanon being a jerk, his initial skepticism of the druids was understandable!



Yes!


TheSword said:


> I think one of the things I love about this series is that there is a large cast of key characters, Moiraine, Lan, Rand, Perrin, Matt, Egwene, Nyneave, Thom etc etc. but few seem superfluous. Every single one of them gets to do some things that are awesome, heroic even in a way that totally validates their character. Some of the awesome moments are spine tingling in their awesomeness. Particularly because of the backdrop and world building around it.
> 
> I also love from a fantasy point of view how Matt and Perrin are awesome characters that hold their own… particularly towards the end with the others even though they aren’t aes sendai. “carai an caldazar, carai an ellisande! al ellisande! / “howls filled the night, howls filled with anger and fear. ‘We come’”



All of this.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 29, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> For my wife, it was the egregiously common use of "damn" as an exclamation, intensifier, etc. She isn't against swearing at all, it was just like...a lot.
> 
> I tend not to notice stuff like that, which probably helps me enjoy Brooks books more.
> 
> Of course, my favorite of his books are the two Running With The Demons books.



I do recall feeling the Magic Kingdom book would be a cool movie, with the right actor choices.


----------



## Parmandur (Jul 29, 2021)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> Nynaeve quickly became my favorite character of the series. She's a character that grew and developed while still keeping her internal compass of right and wrong throughout the series, in the face of world-shattering events. I am looking forward to seeing her come to life in the



I never understood what some people hated about Nynaeve, because because waswas one of my favorites from the word go.


----------



## Gammadoodler (Jul 29, 2021)

pukunui said:


> I’ve just realized it was this series that I read, not the Shannara series. I don’t remember why I read it, because I wasn’t a fan of “person from the modern real world enters a medieval fantasy world” genre, and all I really remember is the whole “tendrils of mist” thing. I think that might be Terry’s favorite descriptor. (EDIT: Yep. I just googled “Terry Brooks” and “tendrils of mist” and a whole slew of his books from multiple series popped up!)



Yeah,  the smoke machine is never off at the Brooks household.


----------



## Gammadoodler (Jul 29, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I do recall feeling the Magic Kingdom book would be a cool movie, with the right actor choices.



I feel like the difficult part is how frequently the premise is used now.  It's basically an entire genre of anime now.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 31, 2021)

Gammadoodler said:


> I feel like the difficult part is how frequently the premise is used now.  It's basically an entire genre of anime now.



Magic Kingdom has a second premise that is pretty interesting though, in the form of the Knight.


----------



## Gammadoodler (Jul 31, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Magic Kingdom has a second premise that is pretty interesting though, in the form of the Knight.



That's fair, though it also reflects a mechanic that is very common within the genre.

Don't get me wrong,  I'd still love to see it if they do it well. I think there is still a case that there is a lot of unexplored territory in live action fantasy programming, especially for English speaking audiences.

I just don't think the premise alone carries near as much water now as it did 20 something years ago when I first read the books.


----------

