# HârnMaster 3 pdf available free from CGI!



## hrafnagud (Jan 28, 2004)

*HârnMaster 3 pdf available free from CGI!*

If you've ever been on the fence about diving into HârnMaster, this is an awesome opportunity to check it out risk free.  Get your pdf from Columbia Games here.


----------



## Cergorach (Jan 28, 2004)

thanks!


----------



## Wombat (Jan 28, 2004)

Very much cool  

I love Harn!


----------



## Keith_Mann (Jan 28, 2004)

This has been my favourite system for years. It's definitely worth taking the time to download it and check it out.


----------



## Mean DM (Jan 28, 2004)

Wow, this is a surprising turn of events for CGI.  But it is one that makes me happy  .  I hope this move broadens their fan base.  Does anyone know if it helped Ars Magica with their similar move?...

Cheers,

Mark


----------



## francisca (Jan 28, 2004)

Didn't Crosby and CGI have a falling out recently?


----------



## Turjan (Jan 28, 2004)

I'd take it as a sign that they don't sell anything...


----------



## sawbones (Jan 28, 2004)

Not a recent falling out, it's ancient news

Harnmaster 2 and 3 were not Crossby's design.

Basically (unfortunatly) the Dalgliesh's have trouble playing nice with the folks doing work for them.

Not only have they alienated Crossby, but I know of at least 2 others, including their best artist who are none too interested in doing future work for them.

GK


----------



## sawbones (Jan 28, 2004)

Not a recent falling out, it's ancient news

Harnmaster 2 and 3 were not Crossby's design.

Basically (unfortunatly) the Dalgliesh's have trouble playing nice with the folks doing work for them.

Not only have they alienated Crossby, but I know of at least 2 others, including their best artist who are none too interested in doing future work for them.

GK


----------



## Mean DM (Jan 28, 2004)

sawbones said:
			
		

> Not a recent falling out, it's ancient news
> 
> Harnmaster 2 and 3 were not Crossby's design.
> 
> ...




I do not think it is as simple (or "basic") as you are making it.  I detect a strong NRC bias in your claim  .  I don't want to take sides in their dispute, but there are those who would argue the the fault does not rest simply (or at all for that matter) with CGI.  

But for the record...

NRC *was* involved with HM2.  He just did not like the final results.

What artist?  Richard Luschek is still working for CGI to the best of my knowledge.  And he is Harn's best artist ever. 

Cheers,

Mark

[edited for clarity]


----------



## Numion (Jan 28, 2004)

Intresting. Let's see what the system has .. character creation:

Different stats for males / females .. check!
Insanity .. CHECK!
Sexual orientation roll .. uhm .. check

Seems like a nice system. 

Just a small gripe: it's a pdf .. why not put the pdf bookmarks in there as well? I know I'm not supposed to gripe since it's free, but if you're going to do it, do it well*.

Oh, thanks for the link! Much appreciated!

* applies to most anything


----------



## Sky_Blue_Sue (Jan 29, 2004)

I’ll have to give Harnmaster a try and read this tonight. Looks interesting though.


----------



## HellHound (Jan 29, 2004)

Mean DM said:
			
		

> Wow, this is a surprising turn of events for CGI.  But it is one that makes me happy  .  I hope this move broadens their fan base.  Does anyone know if it helped Ars Magica with their similar move?...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mark




According to the publisher, no, it had no noticeable effect on sales of the line.


----------



## Grond (Jan 29, 2004)

As a long time harnic fan and GM , I'm glad to see CGI making this move. I hope more people jump on the Harn bandwagon using either the World, Rules or both!


James Hoefling


----------



## Harlock (Jan 29, 2004)

I was visiting the Harn site/boards just the other day and was, sadly, turned off by the tone of the "Introduction" to Harn thing.  Very condescending and full of pretentiousness.  And for what it's worth, I felt some of the statistics used may be a tad dated.

Other than that, I think it may be a neat system but a bit too real for my "fantasy" roleplaying needs.


----------



## DongMaster (Jan 29, 2004)

sawbones said:
			
		

> Basically (unfortunatly) the Dalgliesh's have trouble playing nice with the folks doing work for them.




Having worked for CGI for 4 years and having a big hand in their recent line as well as doing most of the maps, I would say that is bogus to say the least (although I do not work for them anymore due to lack of time). The Dagliesh may be hard nuts but they have always been honest and cool to work with.



> Not only have they alienated Crossby, but I know of at least 2 others, including their best artist who are none too interested in doing future work for them.




Yeah more the merrier for us Hârn fans since Richard Luschek is by far a better B&W illustrator than Hotz ever was (even if I like his work as well). Like you I am biased but leaning towards CGI because I have nothing but good experience with them. That is more than I can say about both Hotz (personal wise) and Crossby (publication wise).

But their quarrel is still unfortunate and I hope they solve it soon. Though I kinda like the fact that they are publishing seperately and in different areas...

Patrick Nilsson
Mapper Extraordinaire


----------



## DongMaster (Jan 29, 2004)

Harlock said:
			
		

> I was visiting the Harn site/boards just the other day and was, sadly, turned off by the tone of the "Introduction" to Harn thing.  Very condescending and full of pretentiousness.  And for what it's worth, I felt some of the statistics used may be a tad dated.




It all depends on your gaming style to be honest, not if it is dated or not. The Hârn Forum is the most informative and friendly I have ever visited and it is a fountain of resource for the game. That being said from a less theological inclined gamer the tone may sound pretentious. However that is partly to do with the fact that there are so many historians etc. on the list. Try Warferrets and you may get a whole new feeling.



> Other than that, I think it may be a neat system but a bit too real for my "fantasy" roleplaying needs.




That is true for many folks. I mean if it wasn't Hârn and its rulesystem would be much more wide known and appriciated. I have not gamed anything else for the past 15 years even if I have bought and tried dozens of other games. But taste varies and I hope with this move that more will get into the game. If not, I am still happy and will continue to spend my time with it.


----------



## Turjan (Jan 29, 2004)

In Germany you have a hard time to find someone willing to play that system because of its name...


----------



## Keith_Mann (Jan 29, 2004)

Harlock said:
			
		

> I was visiting the Harn site/boards just the other day and was, sadly, turned off by the tone of the "Introduction" to Harn thing.  Very condescending and full of pretentiousness.



I'm sorry to hear that you got a bad first impression   Like many games, Harn has its fanatics and sometimes their enthusiasm and dedication comes across badly; it's not intentional. I hope you'll give it another try.

Do you happen to recall which introduction(s) on which site(s) in particular you found objectionable?


----------



## Keith_Mann (Jan 29, 2004)

Numion said:
			
		

> Just a small gripe: it's a pdf .. why not put the pdf bookmarks in there as well? I know I'm not supposed to gripe since it's free, but if you're going to do it, do it well*.



I recently read a comment from the publisher; they'll look into adding bookmarks.


----------



## Sky_Blue_Sue (Jan 29, 2004)

(I'd 2nd the bookmarks.) HarnMaster looks like an interesting system.


----------



## Henry (Jan 29, 2004)

Wasn't it Kaptain Kantrip who used to hang out on the boards touting the awesomeness of Harnmaster? It'll be itneresting to finally check it out. This game was first published - what, sometime in the early 80's?


----------



## GrumpyOldMan (Jan 29, 2004)

First Edition Harnmaster was published in 1986, second edition in 1996 and third edition last year.

Thats less rules amendments that most other systems of a similar age. I think that's becuase they got it pretty much right first time round. You, of course may disagree!

**GOM**


----------



## Ridley's Cohort (Jan 29, 2004)

GrumpyOldMan said:
			
		

> First Edition Harnmaster was published in 1986, second edition in 1996 and third edition last year.
> 
> Thats less rules amendments that most other systems of a similar age. I think that's becuase they got it pretty much right first time round. You, of course may disagree!
> 
> **GOM**




As I see it, HM is a sophisticated BRP variant with a lot of inspiration from Chivalry & Sorcery.  It is building on the shoulders of giants.

It is certainly not for everyone, but it does what is intended quite well.


----------



## DongMaster (Jan 30, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Wasn't it Kaptain Kantrip who used to hang out on the boards touting the awesomeness of Harnmaster? It'll be itneresting to finally check it out. This game was first published - what, sometime in the early 80's?




Ah yes it was, but mostly Hârn the setting (which dwarves HârnMaster), and then when he couldn't muster the strength to keep up with it all, he returned to D&D and Forgotten Realms (that IIRC he bashed quite badly on these boards). We know him over at the Hârn Forum as Agrikan Fury and I gotta admit, I have a soft spot for the fellow even if I never agree with him. He is what I would call a fresh breeze of chaos on anotherwise calm polite forum. 

Ah... Those were the days...


----------



## hrafnagud (Jan 30, 2004)

It seems I cannot hide from the DongMaster, even here on ENWorld...

Who let you out of your cage?


----------



## Harlock (Jan 30, 2004)

Keith_Mann said:
			
		

> I'm sorry to hear that you got a bad first impression   Like many games, Harn has its fanatics and sometimes their enthusiasm and dedication comes across badly; it's not intentional. I hope you'll give it another try.
> 
> Do you happen to recall which introduction(s) on which site(s) in particular you found objectionable?




It would be this one.

From the tone of it, the fellow who wrote the introduction designed the game.


----------



## SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS (Jan 30, 2004)

You can download FATAL for free too!

(ok ok it´s a very BAD joke :-D)


----------



## BryonD (Jan 30, 2004)

Harlock said:
			
		

> It would be this one.
> 
> From the tone of it, the fellow who wrote the introduction designed the game.




FWIW, I completely agree with you.

I am certain the there are many HarmMaster fans who just really like a highly complex system for modeling "realistic" behavior.  Heck, when I was a kid I pretty much thought the Holy Grail of gaming was realism through detailed calculations.  

But I am also convinced from repeated experience that there is also a significant portion of the system fans that get no small measure of satisfaction in the game from their ability to delude themselves into believing that playing it proves some clear superiority to other gamers and their inferior systems.  

Just be amused and don't worry about it.


----------



## Fedifensor (Jan 30, 2004)

You can find the author's version of events here:

http://www.crossby.ca/InformationUpdate.html

Basically, his version is that he invoked the termination clause in his contract with Columbia Games, and that should have taken effect - as of January 9th, CG has no right to publish or sell Harn products.  Columbia appears to be ignoring the author since the two are in different countries (author in Canada, Columbia in US), figuring that the author can't afford cross-border litigation.

Just figured that since multiple people are posting CG's side, I should dig out the other side for comparison.  Columbia Games itself, as far as I can tell, has made no mention of the dispute.

As far as the game itself, it's very interesting - though a bit "old-school" for many player's tastes.  Though there are ways to build characters as point-based, it's obviously designed for the "roll stats and see what you get" crowd.  I have to say that the combat system is perhaps the most realistic of any I've seen - you DON'T want to get into combat if you can avoid it.


----------



## righteousfist (Jan 30, 2004)

Mean DM said:
			
		

> What artist?  Richard Luschek is still working for CGI to the best of my knowledge.  And he is Harn's best artist ever.




I may have my irony-proof tinfoil hat on, but for those not in the know, the artist being referred to is likely Eric Hotz. Luschek is excellent, but let's not be slurring Eric's work now, shall we?


----------



## Golem2176 (Jan 30, 2004)

Downloaded it....considering doing a d20 conversion.


----------



## Mean DM (Jan 30, 2004)

righteousfist said:
			
		

> I may have my irony-proof tinfoil hat on, but for those not in the know, the artist being referred to is likely Eric Hotz. Luschek is excellent, but let's not be slurring Eric's work now, shall we?



Yup, I was referring to Eric.  No slurring was intended. Just a little goodhearted rivalry.  



			
				Fedifensor said:
			
		

> Columbia Games itself, as far as I can tell, has made no mention of the dispute.



Here is my take on this...Columbia Games has intentionally chosen not to take the dispute to the public arena.  After a few initial statements, they have been silent.  Since public opinion has no bearing on litigation, they have chosen not to air the issues. I am thankful for this choice and think it a wise move.



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> Downloaded it....considering doing a d20 conversion.



One has already been done. Check this out to use or for inspiration.

Cheers,

Mark

p.s. Go Pats!


----------



## Golem2176 (Jan 30, 2004)

Mean DM said:
			
		

> One has already been done. Check this out to use or for inspiration.




 KEWL!  Thanks!


----------



## Tsyr (Jan 30, 2004)

Ya know, I went to that "kelestia.com" estore to look into what I guess is the "legal" version of Harn... Sorry, 60 bucks for the 2 core books, and I don't even get them on paper, just PDF?

Huh-uh... noooo way.


----------



## Krieg (Jan 30, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Ya know, I went to that "kelestia.com" estore to look into what I guess is the "legal" version of Harn... Sorry, 60 bucks for the 2 core books, and I don't even get them on paper, just PDF?
> 
> Huh-uh... noooo way.




Keep in mind that Robin's HarnMaster Gold & CGI's HarnMaster 3rd Edition are not the same. Both products share roots in HarnMaster 1stEd but their paths have since diverged.


----------



## dhamon66 (Jan 31, 2004)

*Free HârnMaster 3*

I was very pleased by CGI offering this and plan to use the additional 10% discount on more Hârn product. I just started playing in a Hârn campaign using GURPS and am very happy about the amount of detail Hârn offers.

Ignore the overbearing tone from NRC. The world is so lush and rich that as a player I can go anywhere and do anything and my GM is ready for it.

Just wanted to drop my two silver pennies worth into this thread.


----------



## DongMaster (Jan 31, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> I am certain the there are many HarmMaster fans who just really like a highly complex system for modeling "realistic" behavior.  Heck, when I was a kid I pretty much thought the Holy Grail of gaming was realism through detailed calculations.




He he... When you were a kid... When I was a kid I gamed AD&D and guess what I am gaming now when I have grown up? Not that game I can assure you. Am I less mature or more mature than you? How the hell can one tell on a gaming forum? It is nothing more than taste mind you. Some will like games tending towards realism, others towards high adventure. Nothing wrong with any of the two. Although I would not game D&D today unless it was on the computer but that is my choice. But I have a lot of friends that do and last I looked, we were still friends. 



> But I am also convinced from repeated experience that there is also a significant portion of the system fans that get no small measure of satisfaction in the game from their ability to delude themselves into believing that playing it proves some clear superiority to other gamers and their inferior systems.




Now I am beginning to like you... You are almost like me but not as good. Have you even visited the Hârn forum? No system, gaming world is unwelcome, they have a special section devoted to them. Do we think we are better than you D&D, Exhalted etc. guys? No. Do we think we are gaming with a better system and a better setting? Hell yeah! Otherwise I wouldn't be gaming with HârnMaster or Hârn in the first place. You may not like it, or the setting, but please do not confuse the difference between believing a game to be better and being a better person. Those ain't the same.

Of course as I have told you I am a much better person than you...


----------



## DongMaster (Jan 31, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Ya know, I went to that "kelestia.com" estore to look into what I guess is the "legal" version of Harn... Sorry, 60 bucks for the 2 core books, and I don't even get them on paper, just PDF?
> 
> Huh-uh... noooo way.




Uh... As a Hârn fan extra-ordinaire I can't but agree with you...

The Hârn prices has always been kinda high but that is when you get first quality maps, good artwork, and extremely good editing and consistency. Of course they have been printed by CGI. When you release PDFs like Kelestia.com you need to keep the same prices as the rest of the community or at least not stray too far away. Still as I wrote I am a Hârn fan and buys what comes out, price not important to me. At least now you guys have a rule set for free.

Hrafnagud, there is no escape from me or the dong...


----------



## BryonD (Jan 31, 2004)

DongMaster said:
			
		

> He he... When you were a kid... When I was a kid I gamed AD&D and guess what I am gaming now when I have grown up? Not that game I can assure you. Am I less mature or more mature than you? How the hell can one tell on a gaming forum? It is nothing more than taste mind you. Some will like games tending towards realism, others towards high adventure. Nothing wrong with any of the two. Although I would not game D&D today unless it was on the computer but that is my choice. But I have a lot of friends that do and last I looked, we were still friends.
> 
> Now I am beginning to like you... You are almost like me but not as good. Have you even visited the Hârn forum? No system, gaming world is unwelcome, they have a special section devoted to them. Do we think we are better than you D&D, Exhalted etc. guys? No. Do we think we are gaming with a better system and a better setting? Hell yeah! Otherwise I wouldn't be gaming with HârnMaster or Hârn in the first place. You may not like it, or the setting, but please do not confuse the difference between believing a game to be better and being a better person. Those ain't the same.
> 
> Of course as I have told you I am a much better person than you...




I not going to bother getting dragged into a petty Harn war.
But I will correct a couple mis-representations of what I said.

Nowhere did I tie maturity to the choice.  I simply referenced "when I was a kid" because it is a true statement.  Now compare my one simple fact about me to this quote from the above link by Robin Crossby "Who likes the Hârnic environment? Our typical customer is a 21 year old college student. This compares with the industry standard 14 year old."  If you found my simple personal comment to be an implied insult, then CERTAINLY, you MUST admit that Robin's is a more thinly vieled insult on relative gamer maturity (and a deeply erroneous one at that).  I am not certain that Robin MEANT it as an insult.  But I am certain that no reasonable person can possibly view mine as an insult without seeing this as moreso.

Second, I clearly stated that only a portion of the Harn folks have this superiority thing going.  So saying "Not me" is irrelevant. I have been in several conversations which basically ended in some variant of "You just can't handle it."
Which is laughable, but quite informative of the speaker.  When it becomes routine from a population, one begins to conclude that it represents that population.  Pointing out that exceptions exist does not change reality.


----------



## DongMaster (Jan 31, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> I not going to bother getting dragged into a petty Harn war.




Of course not there is no point... Like you I was not after anything like that.



> Now compare my one simple fact about me to this quote from the above link by Robin Crossby "Who likes the Hârnic environment? Our typical customer is a 21 year old college student. This compares with the industry standard 14 year old."




This was written eons ago when the state of the RPG industry was more like this. See below...



> If you found my simple personal comment to be an implied insult, then CERTAINLY, you MUST admit that Robin's is a more thinly vieled insult on relative gamer maturity (and a deeply erroneous one at that).




Insult? No man, I hardly saw what you wrote as an insult and truth be told I was refering to the Hârn Forum and not the intro to Hârn. But Robin is not far off as you might think. And calling it an insult to the rest of the RPG industry is bogus man. I have friends who game D&D (who call it superior to Hârn because of the reasons they game it) that are in their late 40ies and I know sons and younger siblings who also games D&D, but seldom do I see youngster game Hârn.

Many of those who finds the game and starts enjoying it, are those who has tried out the rest of the industry and are looking for a more "suspension of disbelief" kinda game with lots of detail, "realism", and different kinda gaming (not to mention the immense medieval touch). It does however not mean that HârnMaster or Hârn are better because of it, but it does makes it great because we who game it loves what it represents. Just like some game D&D, Exhalted, Vampire and so on. 



> Second, I clearly stated that only a portion of the Harn folks have this superiority thing going.  So saying "Not me" is irrelevant. I have been in several conversations which basically ended in some variant of "You just can't handle it."




Uh... Not on the Hârn Forum I can assure you. However the exact same thing happens to me a lot when I am advocating Hârn's strengths and why I find it so fun to game, on other forums. Often I get people who just simply comment what a lousy game it is without any reference to anything. It is like everytime WotC release something and there is a discussion about it, I would swoop in a tell you guys how much it all sucks. That never happens from my side and I can vouch not any Hârn member on the forum that I know of either.



> Which is laughable, but quite informative of the speaker.  When it becomes routine from a population, one begins to conclude that it represents that population.  Pointing out that exceptions exist does not change reality.




Reality? You jest me surely... I mean what you write is almost like we see ourselves as enlightened people that spits in your direction. That is simply not the case but we do feel we are gaming a superior game. Why else game it? You play whatever you game for other reasons than this? Yes fun of course but the best in your opinion is what you will game (unless you do not have any players) normally. I it wasn't I wouldn't game it at all. Hârn represents everything I want in a game and I have not looked back on standard fantasy since I was introduced to it 15 years ago.

And Robin would probably have written it differently today (or so I am guessing)...


----------



## BryonD (Jan 31, 2004)

Sorry, either you are ignoring the reality of the Harn community or you are oblivious of it.

I don't care which.


----------



## Krieg (Jan 31, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Sorry, either you are ignoring the reality of the Harn community or you are oblivious of it.
> 
> I don't care which.





...and of course the D20 community is notable for it's lack of elitist snobs.


----------



## BryonD (Jan 31, 2004)

Krieg said:
			
		

> ...and of course the D20 community is notable for it's lack of elitist snobs.





No doubt.

But I have not expressed any issues with Harn or HarnMaster itself.  It all seems to be fine.  I would dispute that more complicated and, in theory, more "realistic", makes for a more intelligent game.  But I wouldn't claim it to be inferior either.

But while D20 CERTAINLY has its snobs, my repeated experience has been that the Harn community is defined by them.

I did not blow him off because I am a D20 over HarnMaster snob.

I blew him off because I am a My Time over No Win Debate with a Harniac Snob.


----------



## GrumpyOldMan (Jan 31, 2004)

BryonD

I must agree with you that, in parts, Robin Crossby's introduction to Harn rweads like pretentious twaddle. It was written when first edition was published. Look at the early pronouncements of Gary Gygax et al and you'll find a fair amount of pretentious twaddle there too.

I have no problem at all if you don't like HarnMaster as a system. Every Forum has people who arrogantly claim that their system is best. There are very few of them on the HarnForum, which does, as has been pointed out, have a specific forum for those who use other rules sets to game on Harn.

I'm not sure that HarnMaster is any closer to BRP as a system than Pendragon is to D20. HM and BRP use a % based system, so do lots of games.

As you may have guessed HM is my favourite system, I'd certainly recommend the rules to anyone (especially at the current price!)


----------



## DongMaster (Jan 31, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Sorry, either you are ignoring the reality of the Harn community or you are oblivious of it.




None of it in fact... I *am* the ass on the Hârn Forum so I should know.



> I don't care which.




Yes you do... Otherwise you wouldn't continue.

But I do like your determination, believe it or not, even if you haven't convinced me at all or I you. The things I spoke of are my beliefs and I will stick to them since they have proved me right at least so many times. Off I go to my snob forum and smoke my Havannas and drink my five star whiskey. 

But to those turned down by this, the PDF is still up and free...


----------



## Glyfair (Jan 31, 2004)

GrumpyOldMan said:
			
		

> First Edition Harnmaster was published in 1986, second edition in 1996 and third edition last year.
> 
> Thats less rules amendments that most other systems of a similar age. I think that's becuase they got it pretty much right first time round. You, of course may disagree!




Based on my experience, I would say a possible reason they wen't through so few systems was because a large number of people who played in the world didn't use the system.  Most of the Harn players I used to deal with (admittedly, this was the 80's) played in the world because it was incredibly detailed, and didn't like the character system at all.

Back then it was described to me as a world for people who wanted to know exactly how many peasants were in a specific village, where they lived and what was in their cottage.


----------



## GrumpyOldMan (Jan 31, 2004)

glyfair said:
			
		

> a possible reason they wen't through so few systems was because a large number of people who played in the world didn't use the system. Most of the Harn players I used to deal with (admittedly, this was the 80's) played in the world because it was incredibly detailed, and didn't like the character system at all.




This is, of course, still the case, there are a lot of players who game on the world of Harn & don't use Harnmaster. I used to use a cut down version of RuneQuest myself (but then I bought Harn before Harnmaster existed). [That is not meant to sound smug].

I think Harn is different because the world was created first, and the rules written later. It seems to me that most game designers make the rules then design a world to fit. To me a believable world should come first. You're right, it is possible to detail every resident of every village in Harn. I've done a couple to that level of detail myself. But if that is where the PC's live, it's as well to let them know who their neighbours are.

As for the rules, personally, I'm always surprised at the number of people who use Harnmaster in their own, home-built, worlds.

GOM


----------



## hrafnagud (Feb 1, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> But while D20 CERTAINLY has its snobs, my repeated experience has been that the Harn community is defined by them.




Sorry, I hadn't actually noticed you participating in the Hârn community.  I feel the need to set you straight on the merits of the Hârn community, but in all likelyhood [irony]you just can't handle it[/irony].


----------



## BryonD (Feb 1, 2004)

hrafnagud said:
			
		

> Sorry, I hadn't actually noticed you participating in the Hârn community.  I feel the need to set you straight on the merits of the Hârn community, but in all likelyhood [irony]you just can't handle it[/irony].




Are you claiming that things you don't notice do not happen?

If not, what ARE you claiming?


----------



## DongMaster (Feb 1, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Are you claiming that things you don't notice do not happen?
> 
> If not, what ARE you claiming?




That's the spirit BryonD, never yield as we Copper Hooks say, never yield... *

* Especially not to a Hârnic snob swine right?


----------



## BryonD (Feb 1, 2004)

DongMaster said:
			
		

> That's the spirit BryonD, never yield as we Copper Hooks say, never yield... *
> 
> * Especially not to a Hârnic snob swine right?




Is putting words in my mouth the only answer?


----------



## DongMaster (Feb 1, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Is putting words in my mouth the only answer?




C'mon man, you really think I would dare to do that? You are my hero...

BTW, my dad could beat your dad so there.

All jesting aside do you really think you can convince anyone that we are elitists, swines, snobs, bla bla bla...? Maybe we are in your eyes but the amount of flaming over at our place is abmyssal at most. Your statements are only true if you are overly touchy in forums. They are games nothing more. Treat them as such.


----------



## BryonD (Feb 1, 2004)

Why is it that at least two if you seem to demand that my only life experience with Harn fans can exist on the Harn forums?

I am uncertain what it really means that you are so determined to deny that my experiences have happened.  

I really can not imagine myself ever being in a situation where I had to try to convince someone that their past did not really happen.

And it isn't about flames.  I have never felt slightly insulted.  Only, as I stated in my first post in this thread, amused.


----------



## DongMaster (Feb 1, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Why is it that at least two if you seem to demand that my only life experience with Harn fans can exist on the Harn forums?




I dunno really. Some would say that I am annoying, especially on the Hârn Forums, some would say I am just seeking attention because of my hard childhood growing up with AD&D. But I think it is because I am an elitist snob who games the superior Hârn game that will rule zee wurld one day...

You really should check out the Hooks' slogan man, you would have liked it.


----------



## Trystorp (Feb 1, 2004)

I think it's unfortunate that this thread has degenerated into this kind of banter.  In my personal experience the Harn community has been in large part a mature, thoughtful and fascinating bunch.  This opportunity to download a free .pdf of the HarnMaster system I would hope will bring new fans to the community.  

I, like the majority of role-players, grew up on D&D and its various incarnations.  When I grew tired of many of the aspects of that rule system I dipped my feet in the waters of dozens of other systems looking for something that would allow me to play in a way that I could maintain my suspension of disbelief.  I have found HarnMaster to be a system that does this better than any other.  It has an ease of use that I find startling when I look at other systems I have played over the years.  I find I spend the majority of my GMing time focusing on the events of the session rather than looking up rules.  I find the system to be the most intuitive I have played.  As others have said, it is a difficult system to break and a remarkably easy one to modify - as the large number of houserule documents on the web can attest to.  Some might argue (and some have!) that this indicates a broken system to begin with but I disagree.  I find it to simply be a matter of granularity.  The core system contains the basics needed to play and the many options available in the book expand on this, allowing GMs to add as much detail as fits their style of play.  The multitudes of houserules continue to feed the needs of hungry GMs!

Again, in my experience, HarnMaster is a great rule set.  It is however tailored to a certain style of play - low fantasy.  It does not cater to the loin-clothed berserker or bikini-clad warrior woman.  It depicts fairly realistic warfare.  As you would expect, an armoured warrior has a distinct advantage over unarmoured opponents.  Combat is deadly, but I have not found this to a detriment to long campaigns.  Instead, my players became more engrossed with their characters.  They adjusted their concept of what "heroic" meant in the context of a low-fantasy world.  They guard their lives carefully and choose fights with great discretion.  Avoiding combat is always an option they are more than willing to take!  They have become more careful, thoughtful and tactical players.  The system, in my opinion, is in large part to blame for this.

I have not found Harn fans to be pretentious or snobbish.  It is unfortunate if that has been the experience of others.  We are a group of individuals who have found a world and/or system that works for us where other worlds or systems have failed to do so.  Harn is an incredibly detailed and realistic fantasy world that allows my imagination to soar, unfettered by inconsistencies and over the top fantasy elements.  HarnMaster is a rule system that allows me to run my game in this world or other similar worlds.  Is it perfect?  Of course not - there are elements of it that don't completely work for me (though certainly do for others) but it does what it is designed to do very well.

All of the above is in my experience and in my opinion.  I apologize for gushing and any pretension that may have seeped through into my words...    

Give it a look - you can't beat the price!


----------



## BryonD (Feb 1, 2004)

Hello Trystorp,

Thanks for the thoughts.  Obviously you are among the first group I mentioned. I agree that the path of this thread is unfortunate, but I guess I really can not say I am surprised.  

There certainly has not been any Harn-snobbery in THIS thread.  But this thread has turned into a discussion on whether or not it exists, so I'm not certain it makes for good evidence either way on that count.

But, before you entered, three out of three pro-Harn folks were basically saying that my past history simply did not exist.  I hope you can understand how that can be quite difficult to take seriously.  One person is funny.  Three is a pattern.  

Like I said, I'm not really suprised it went this way.  But my honest hope, to the extent that I cared, was that someone like you would come along, someone willing to be mature and thoughtful.  

It may be that you are all extremely polite and engaging with each other.  But there are people proclaiming themselves to be Harn fans who go to a lot of trouble to put a very bad face on the rest of you.  You'll note that I'm not even the first one in the thread to mention this.  I just replied that my past supported the same experience that someone else expressed they were, at least, starting to feel.  A thoughtful response would be something to the tune of "Whoever you've met in the past doesn't speak for us." or something like that.  But instead I get irrational claims that my experiences are false, and even, better, implications that it couldn't have happened because someone else did not observe it for themself, not to mention the other blatantly childish asides.  Honestly, do you feel that the maturity you have seen within the Harn community is being shown here?  (Your own post aside.)

I completely respect what you said about the game itself.  I used to be very much into that kind of playing. What you said about low-fantasy is almost word for word the type thing I myself said many times.  But now I prefer loin cloth barbarians, drow and mindflayers. Not a maturity thing, it is just where I am these days.  My only point here is I REALLY don't have a single problem with Harn or HarnMaster or any of that.  My only issue is the distinctly abrasive attitude I have encountered on several occasions.  

So anyway, thanks for the post.  It is certainly very refreshing.  I am sorry that my bad experiences in the past contribute to unflattering conversation around the game you enjoy.


----------



## Trystorp (Feb 1, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> I am certain the there are many HarmMaster fans who just really like a highly complex system for modeling "realistic" behavior.  Heck, when I was a kid I pretty much thought the Holy Grail of gaming was realism through detailed calculations.




Bryon,

While I certainly DO want a system that models "realistic" behavior I would argue with your assertion that HarnMaster is highly complex.  In fact, I find it far less complex than the majority of systems I have played, and in particular far less complex than D&D.  HarnMaster has one essential mechanic used throughout the game - differing levels of success based on a percentile system.  The combat grid looks frightening to begin with and succeeded in turning me off of the first incarnation of HarnMaster at first glance but it has become much more streamlined and slick since then.  After a couple of sessions I and my players found that we rarely even had to look at it - we'd memorized the bulk of it.

Many people think of Rolemaster when they think of a system designed for "realism".  HarnMaster is not a table heavy, dice crunching system.  The real strength of HarnMaster in my opinion is that while it does present a fairly realistic model it does so in an ergonomic fashion - slick and easy!

For what it's worth, I am sorry that people you have encountered in the past have turned you off Harn and Harniacs.  Harn tends to appeal to detail oriented people, who like to see how economies, cultures, and social structures integrate with each other and work.  Detail oriented people, perhaps by their very nature can seem picky, snobby and pretentious.  (My wife, after reading my first message assured me that I too sounded this way...)  I would hope that my and others enthusiasm for our game does not come across so poorly to the roleplaying public.  As a community (though I can't claim to speak for this body) we would like to encourage more people to look at Harn.

Harn is one of the few games, if not the only game, that has delved into these detailed aspects of a gaming world and presented a working and consistent model.  But don't get me wrong here - Harn isn't all dull detail!  I find that each time I sit down with HarnWorld or one of the kingdom modules I have adventure hooks flying out at me on every page.

Each of us has come to Harn in our own way, and as "DongMaster" has said, believe that it is the best world or system for our own style of play.  Thankfully, there are many different kinds of people in our hobby and many different games to accommodate them.  Harn is the game for me.  As I said earlier, I hope others take a look at this free .pdf and come to realize that Harn may also be the game for them.

Proselytizing mode off...   

_I would strongly encourage anyone who feels curious about Harn to visit Lythia.com and experience some of the many downloads available on that site.  Many are useful whether you game in Harn or not.  In particular visit the Swords and Shields section - there are many very high quality downloads there, although high quality is most certainly not exclusive to this section._


----------



## hrafnagud (Feb 1, 2004)

*BryonD*, I believe our quarrel lies in the definition of the 'Hârn community.'  I take it to mean the participants on the Hârn forum, who account for the lion's share of CGI's sales.  For instance, the number of preorders on new products is nearly exactly the same as the number of active forum members.  You appear to extend the definition to cover anyone you've met who plays the game.  Nobody is wrong here, we just have different definitions.  Perhaps this is a cause for the unfortunate misunderstanding.

I am unqualified to speak about your history with Hârn, and one would be a fool to think otherwise.  Thinking thus, in what way have I denied your past experiences ever happened?  How could I be taken seriously making such a claim?  I simply feel that for you to state that the Hârn Community (see my definition above) believes "you can't handle it" would require actually interacting with said community.  Perhaps you have; I've never taken notice.

Personally, I've never seen a forum as full of polite and courtious people as the Hârn forum.  Remarks like your's strike home because I identify with those people, and I thought the statement to be erronious, unfounded and unfair.  This certainly doesn't mean you haven't met elitist Hârniacs in the past, as you seem to feel I have implied.  I apologize if you feel slighted.  Peace.


----------



## DongMaster (Feb 1, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> But, before you entered, three out of three pro-Harn folks were basically saying that my past history simply did not exist.




I don't know if I should weep or laugh because that is not what I am saying at all good ol' BryonD. I am saying that the kind of attitude you describe is almost abmyssal (I love that word) on the Hârn Forum which, truth be told, caters to most active internet Hârn gamers today. My irony and taunts arose because of the early postings from your fingers, not the later ones. You may have had bad experiences with Hârn folks from the past, but believe me that is nothing (I am assuming) compared to the forums that I have been to lately.

It is like there are scoring points to swoop in, tell me how snobbish we are, and how the game suck ass, and then swoop out and be the hero of the day. If you do not like the game, the people, or even the presence of us here, why even bother to enter the thread when there is nothing to gain from it (generally speaking)? I simply do not get it, especially when it is offered for free. Or maybe I am missing something completely and should swoop in and do the same each time Wizards or someone else release something? 

To get back on track, and keep my ironic mode to a minimum, for those wanting to know a little more and do not have the stomach to read Crossby's old Hârn introduction this may be a bit better: 

http://www.rpgunited.com/info/harnworld.html

It is not much but takes a neutral standing compared to the other...


----------



## Mirth (Feb 1, 2004)

DongMaster said:
			
		

> abmyssal (I love that word)...




"This word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

And Dictionary.com can't seem to find it, either: abmyssal?

Care to clarify?

Mirth


----------



## DongMaster (Feb 1, 2004)

Mirth said:
			
		

> And Dictionary.com can't seem to find it, either: abmyssal?




I may have mispelled it... From what I have heard it is: "almost non-existent" or something like that. Then again it may be slang.


----------



## hrafnagud (Feb 1, 2004)

Hey DongMaster, I think the word you are looking for is 'abysmal', i.e. pertaining to the abyss.  Usually meaning something terrible (e.g. your spelling...).


----------



## darklight (Feb 1, 2004)

I think the word you're looking for is (from dictionary.com):

a·bys·mal    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (-bzml)
adj. 
Resembling an abyss in depth; unfathomable. 
Very profound; limitless: abysmal misery. 
Very bad: an abysmal performance. 

It does not mean exactly what it seems you think it means, though.

darklight


----------



## DongMaster (Feb 1, 2004)

hrafnagud said:
			
		

> Hey DongMaster, I think the word you are looking for is 'abysmal', i.e. pertaining to the abyss.  Usually meaning something terrible (e.g. your spelling...).




Now even my own breed mocks me? I always knew that there was something evil with that name of yours.  

Yes I was refering to a wrong statement. OMG... And me a snob and everything.

*runs to the closet hiding in shame from my fellow snobs*


----------



## BryonD (Feb 1, 2004)

Trystorp,

I did not find your prior message to be snobbish or pretentious in any way.  Saying that one finds a particular system to be "the best" for their desires is only reasonable.  It is only when people start citing preference for an alternate system as strong evidence of insufficent capacity, or somesuch, that it becomes snobbish.  And I have encountered variations on that several times.

I do consider myself detail oriented.  I get bogged down in details of economy and naming every villager, etc... (my players would say to much so   ).  But I doubt I would prefer HarnMaster at this point because I still prefer that those detailed villages be attacked by loin clothed barbarians, drow and mind-flayers and saved by fireball flinging archmagi.  Just preference, no big deal.

Anyway, I am glad the game works for you and I greatly appreciate you putting a pleasant face on things.



hrafnagud,

Fair enough.  I hope you can understand without taking this as confrontational that assuming that everyone else uses your very limited defintion of "the Harn community" is unreasonable.  When I speak about my personal interactions with the Harn community, it means the fans of Harn that I have spoken with in the past.  I believe that is fair use of language.

So when you impose an assumption on my perspective and respond with a brief jab that could be described as little more than "fighting words", it difficult for me to understand what you really mean.

Now that you have explained yourself, I completely accept what you are saying. Please don't take the above as me trying to needle you.  I really am just trying to explain my position.  So no hard feelings, lets just write it off as typical message board misunderstanding.



DongMaster,

I'm not even going to bother trying to have a reasonable conversation with you.  You still insist on not only putting words in my mouth, but words that are exactly the opposite of what I have, in fact, said.
The answers to your questions and responses to your statements are clear from a review of my previous posts, you can find them there.


----------



## DongMaster (Feb 1, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> You still insist on not only putting words in my mouth, but words that are exactly the opposite of what I have, in fact, said.




They are? I mean I clearly remember seeing you write:

_"But while D20 CERTAINLY has its snobs, my repeated experience has been that the Harn community is defined by them._

Yeah truly wise words since the Hârn Forum contains most of these with internet presence and I bet your experiences use it as well. But nuff said, I am outta here in definition. Things are beginning to reek of hide-and-tell around here. Too bad since I know that there are a lot of good folks hanging out on these boards...


----------



## BryonD (Feb 1, 2004)

It appears you can't even recall the entirety of your own post to which I replied.

I stand completely by the quote you present because the words *"my repeated experience"* make it 100% true.

Edit: I'm also not going to continue to play the game of: I say I won't reply so you make an absurd claim, forcing me to either reply again or let it stand.  Lack of response to future absurdities will not imply that they are not absurd.


----------



## Wormwood (Feb 1, 2004)

Perhaps youre thinking of infinitesimal?

/helpful mode


----------



## GrumpyOldMan (Feb 1, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> DongMaster,
> 
> I'm not even going to bother trying to have a reasonable conversation with you.




**sigh** Join the club. **sigh**

GOM


----------



## jasonbrisbane (Feb 2, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Trystorp,
> 
> I did not find your prior message to be snobbish or pretentious in any way.  Saying that one finds a particular system to be "the best" for their desires is only reasonable.




I think this phrase is the key... Most people only say "The best" when they really mean to add ...for their needs...



			
				BryonD said:
			
		

> Trystorp,
> I do consider myself detail oriented.  I get bogged down in details of economy and naming every villager, etc... (my players would say to much so   ).  But I doubt I would prefer HarnMaster at this point because I still prefer that those detailed villages be attacked by loin clothed barbarians, drow and mind-flayers and saved by fireball flinging archmagi.  Just preference, no big deal.




I too like a bit more Fantasy than true "Harniacs" would like... the game system and world suits my needs and is a good medieval world envrionment. I add monsters, vampires, were-beasts, heck even a dragon (PC's backed up on that one!). I believe that the "death comes too easily" aspect of Harn is its strength. No PC's with magic weapons going "yeh, I can take this dragon on..."... It suits my roleplaying needs perfectly.

Last game my players had the bloodiest fight I have ever encountered. They literally hated to kill the bad guys because they were under so much pain... The BEST roleplaying moment I have even been in!
 I dont see how DnD could have worked in this type of arena - hits dont seem to work as well as the Bloodied face and thorax wouds that the NPC's were taking (blessed by War god (AGRIK) to NOT fall over in the face of Laranian scum..

Just my 2cp (or 2d in Harn) 

Regards,

Jason Brisbane
-----
Happy Harn GM, HARP GM and DnD player for a long time....


----------



## Iron_Chef (Feb 2, 2004)

Shouldn't this thread be about the merits of HarnMaster, or such? For some reason, whenever the name "Harn" pops up here, it always causes a controversy and ends up degenerating into a "my game can beat up your game!" argument. I'm not going to waste time going into that mess again.

I don't think this thread is (or should be) about which game is the "best", but about which game does what it sets out to do the best. These are two different things, IMO, and allows EVERYBODY to be happy. Finally getting the chance to read the "much-vaunted" HarnMaster rules for FREE was really an eye-opener for me as a steadfast d20 gamer (normally I don't like skill-based systems like GURPS or BRP), but HM, despite being a bit dry in spots, seemed to just "click" in the right places for my idea of a low fantasy game, so I gave it a more thorough read through than I thought I would.

Here are my observations, based on a comparison between d20 and HM (my thoughts on the rules neutral HarnWorld setting follow), and I hope I don't upset anybody, because a lot of posters seem so touchy and it's not my intent to contribute to any animosity!):

D&D is a great fit for moderate (GH, UA, Kalamar) to over the top (FR, Eberron, Oathbound, etc.) settings. It is fun, "everybody knows  how to play it" and does what it sets out to do beautifully. I don't think I need to go into its virtues as this is ENWorld---we already know and love D&D/d20, warts and all! However, one thing I think we can all agree that it does not do well, is model low fantasy or historical settings, except with massive changes (Call of Cthulhu d20 being a sterling example), and I'm not sure it gets it right, even then. 

HarnMaster, to me, clearly is a superior rules system for modeling what it sets out to do: an extremely realistic grim and gritty "low fantasy" game. It would work well with Thieves' World, Lankhmar, Middle Earth, or, I daresay, with the spirit (if not always the practice) of Conan. Combat is the scariest thing I have ever seen. Nobody in their right mind would choose to carelessly get into a fight using HarnMaster; the risks are just too great. Combat is descriptive, bloody and brutal. This engenders a more realistic, tactical and thoughtful style of play. When the players realize they must be creative and not resolve every obstacle with brute force or high magic, the game can get very interesting for everyone in ways that the "hack-n-slash/smash-n-grab" style promoted heavily (though not exclusively) by 3rd Edition D&D can rarely do. When every time you draw your sword or cast a spell may be your last, no matter how experienced your character may be (there are no levels or classes in HarnMaster, which is entirely skill based), it promotes a very different style of play. For those who want this sort of game, I recommend HarnMaster, regardless of whether they use the HarnWorld setting. HarnMaster does not appear to do high fantasy well. But if you want high fantasy, there are few better choices than D&D. We already know that, right?   

After looking over psionics (I assume magic must work in a similar way, but it's covered in a different book, as is religion), the truly amazing part is how free-form it is. This is a rough example (Harniacs feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), but here goes: The player says, "I want to use this power of mine now" (rolls % and succeeds at a psionic power skill check). Rather than having a set limit to what said power can achieve defined by the rules, the DM would say, "What effect do you wish to achieve?" The player then states what he would LIKE to have happen, the DM then is free to assign whatever result, good or bad, he thinks should occur, within reason of the power and the success level of the character's power skill check. This seems daunting at first, like it would require a lot of extra thinking on the DM and player, but it seems to me that this keeps magic/psionics mysterious, and is far better at modeling fantasy literature and legend than d20's "cookbook" approach. Magic/psionics really can do ANYTHING (within reason, with the DM as final arbiter).

--------------------------------------------------------

HarnWorld, the campaign setting, is rules neutral and could be used with any system. It seems ideal for detail oriented DMs who can relax knowing that every last village and villager is detailed, as well as the world making sense, economically, ecologically, magically, culturally, militarily... monsters are very rare, and most are unique, and there is always a logical explanation for their existence. There are elves, dwarves and orcs, but they are kept mysterious and apart, nor are they balanced for PC races. It seems fairly Tolkienesque in this regard from what I can gather, but also heavily based on historical medieval England, right down to the feudal system. 

It seems like one could easily get lost in all the detail, but I figure you only use as much as you want, and the rest is there if you need it. For a time-strapped DM like me, knowing that every little niggling detail is available at my fingertips seems like mana from heaven. "You want to go here? Ok, no problem--" ***flip***"You arrive at you destination, and here is what you see..." Nice.     I assume there's wiggle room to fudge things if need be and that the setting is not a strait-jacket, though changing one aspect too drastically might necessitate changing a bunch of other, related aspects??? I'm just going by the free stuff and previews online, so correct me if I'm wrong.

For me, buying a setting is to relieve me of the burden of coming up with my own. I want it super-detailed, so I can concentrate on adventures, not world-building. The more information available, the better I can make it come alive and make sense without breaking a sweat. Players constantly bug me for little details I have to scramble to make up. Let the eggheads sweat the details while I reap the profits, is my motto. Unfortunately, few settings have the kind of anal-retentive detail AND flavor I'm looking for.  For example, I constantly have to remake FR fit my desires, stripping out tons of elements I despise, in order to concrentrate on the elements I do enjoy (which tends to make the extra work I endure worthwhile). 

As an aside, I've been reading the Conan novels (Howard and others) lately, and really enjoy the flavor and real world parallels of the Hyborian Age. I'm a little peeved that the $50 Conan main book barely covers the setting and I must wait many months to get the Hyborian Gazetteer (now called ROAD OF KINGS and expanded to 200 pages, then wait more months for the Zamora kingdom sourcebook). Fortunately, the novels are very helpful in filling in details and flavor, but I shouldn't have to wait months AND read dozens of books just to properly get a feel for the various aspects and locations of Conan's setting. I am confident ROAD OF KINGS will deliver, as the d20 Conan guru Vincent Darlage is writing it, and Mongoose based the recently upped page count on how delighted they were with his work. 

I am waiting with baited breath for the new Conan (d20) OGL game, which hopefully will go a long way toward remedying this shortcoming while still providing options for performing near-impossible heroic deeds IN MODERATION. If Conan fails to achieve this, I may very well try HarnMaster, as low fantasy is just what I'm in the mood for now. Doubtless, as all things are cyclical, I'll be wanting to hurl fireballs, fly through the air and fight legions of hill giants again sooner or later, and d20 will be my system of choice for these types of heroic mid to high fantasy adventures, because that's what it does so well and it's just so much damn fun.


----------



## Glyfair (Feb 2, 2004)

GrumpyOldMan said:
			
		

> I think Harn is different because the world was created first, and the rules written later. It seems to me that most game designers make the rules then design a world to fit. To me a believable world should come first. You're right, it is possible to detail every resident of every village in Harn. I've done a couple to that level of detail myself. But if that is where the PC's live, it's as well to let them know who their neighbours are.





This may be true recently, but I think it was the exception back in the early 80's or so.  Many times the game & world developed about the same time (D&D and Greyhawk) or the world came first and the system later (Glorantha/Runquest, Empire of the Petal Throne, Harn).  The only major world at the time I'm not sure about is Arduin (I know it had some tie-ins with the D&D system, but I think the world may have existed first).


----------



## tkinias (Feb 2, 2004)

Iron_Chef said:
			
		

> HarnMaster, to me, clearly is a superior rules system for modeling what it sets out to do: an extremely realistic grim and gritty "low fantasy" game. It would work well with Thieves' World, Lankhmar, Middle Earth, or, I daresay, with the spirit (if not always the practice) of Conan. Combat is the scariest thing I have ever seen. Nobody in their right mind would choose to carelessly get into a fight using HarnMaster; the risks are just too great. Combat is descriptive, bloody and brutal. This engenders a more realistic, tactical and thoughtful style of play.



There is some truth to that.  I would qualify it by saying that I have actually played in Middle Earth using HârnMaster rules, and it works excellently -- much better than, for example, ICE's MERP or RoleMaster.  
I always had a problem with the fact that there was so much low-grade magic flying around that we never see in Tolkien.  That's really neither here nor there, however.  I never actually got it off the ground for a campaign (we decided that for us, a low-magic setting was more in line with our style of play), but a friend and I spent a lot of effort porting TSR-style magic to HârnMaster rules.  There's absolutely no obstacle to using very high fantasy under these rules.  Combat is much deadlier in HârnMaster rules than in d20 (at least for experienced characters), but add in powerful healing magic and a mage in every party and that becomes much less of an issue.

Iron_Chef has hit on what is the biggest difference between HârnMaster and d20 (or, for that matter, any other system I've played):  the feel of combat.  Combat can be _very_ deadly, and you get a sense of exactly what is going on.  That is, I don't just know I've been wounded, but I know that I have a bad bruise to my chest where my mail just _barely_ stopped your sword.  I like that.  For all that detail, however, it is shockingly easy to run combat, and it in can run faster than d20.  All that is required is that the attacker and defender each make a roll, and we look at a four-by-four matrix to see what happens.  That four-by-four matrix gets memorized about three rounds into your first fight.

The big contrast with d20 is that there is basically one game mechanic (the skill roll) that you have to learn.  Almost everything in the game involves that.  There are no `feats' or anything else that change the way things work.  Now, d20 when I first played it (back in the early 1980s, when it was just D&D) was even simpler; the d20 of today is a much richer, much more complicated game, though.  For the most part, this has been for the better, and there is a whole lot more to d20 today than there was twenty-plus years ago.  However, the `complexity' argument that made HârnMaster seem so daunting in comparison to the D&D of that era isn't really, IMHO, applicable today.  We can play through a whole combat without referring to anything but two tables, and barring combat virtually never have to refer to the rules to see how things work.


----------



## Mean DM (Feb 2, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> But I am also convinced from repeated experience that there is also a significant portion of the system fans that get no small measure of satisfaction in the game from their ability to delude themselves into believing that playing it proves some clear superiority to other gamers and their inferior systems.



While I will grant that this is potentially true of any true fan, I feel that this was a cheep shot.  You can't couch a global statement claiming knowledge of a "significant" number of Harn players behind the protection of your personal "repeated experience."  You may not like some of the Harn fans, but please don't slander the rest of us.

Cheers,

Mark


----------



## tkinias (Feb 2, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Trystorp,
> I do consider myself detail oriented.  I get bogged down in details of economy and naming every villager, etc... (my players would say to much so   ).  But I doubt I would prefer HarnMaster at this point because I still prefer that those detailed villages be attacked by loin clothed barbarians, drow and mind-flayers and saved by fireball flinging archmagi.  Just preference, no big deal.




Of course, if you play in HârnWorld, there are no drow or mind flayers.  Instead you have ivashu and such -- that is, monsters appropriate to the setting.  However, it is quite important to distinguish HârnWorld from HârnMaster (the rules system).  You can play in the HârnWorld setting using any game system you like; there is, in fact, a set of d20 rules for doing just that.  You can also play in, say, Forgotten Realms or Middle Earth, using HârnMaster rules.  The GM has to put in the work to get stats for the monsters and setting-appropriate magic, of course, but the system handles it nicely.

BTW, I actually have HârnMaster stats for a mind flayer lying around somewhere, detritus from a half-finished crossover project. 

In my experience, players who get to sit down and do a combat in HârnMaster with an experienced GM are very impressed.  I was always drawn to RoleMaster back in the early '90s because of the detail of the combat system.  In RM, though, there was <em>huge</em> complexity to go along with what turned out, when you looked too hard at it, to be a combat system not too much more realistic than d20's.  I got sold on HM because the realism went far beyond anything I'd ever seen before (barring Phoenix Command, which was nigh unplayable due to complexity), and the flow of combat was quick, intuitive, and `felt' right.

Honestly, I have a hard time now when I play d20 and just take 1d8 hp from a strike.  I've spoilt by getting hit on the right forearm and cursing the fact that he didn't hit me on the upper arm, where my mail would have stopped it.

I fully understand wanting to avoid too much complexity, or having a hard time getting used to the feel of a new campaign setting which just doesn't have the cool stuff you are used to.  I just would hate for anyone to miss out on the Hârn system because they thought it would be too complex for them, when I find it the simplest, most elegant system I've played.  And I'd hate people to think that they can't enjoy that system without giving up all the magic and monsters they know and love.


----------



## tkinias (Feb 2, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> But I am also convinced from repeated experience that there is also a significant portion of the system fans that get no small measure of satisfaction in the game from their ability to delude themselves into believing that playing it proves some clear superiority to other gamers and their inferior systems.




There are those `Hârniacs' who do tend to overengineer everything, looking for a rule for every situation.  Hârn can attract that sort of player or GM.  And certainly, there are those who seem to consider the complexity of their rule system some sort of measure of masculinity or something; I was probably one of those a decade ago.  Now I find that I want the rules most of all to get out of the way and (a) not bog me down with rules questions instead of roleplaying; and (b) not interfere too drastically with my ability to suspend disbelief.


----------



## BryonD (Feb 2, 2004)

Mean DM said:
			
		

> While I will grant that this is potentially true of any true fan, I feel that this was a cheep shot.  You can't couch a global statement claiming knowledge of a "significant" number of Harn players behind the protection of your personal "repeated experience."  You may not like some of the Harn fans, but please don't slander the rest of us.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mark




Sorry you feel that way. 

But if you include the paragraph prior to the one that you quote you will find 
that I excluded "the rest" of you.   

Also, I never claimed that I personally know a "significant number".  What I claimed was that my experience had a sufficient sample size and consistency to reasonably reach a conclusion that a significant number existed.  I still feel that is a justified.

Me saying that my experience indicates the presence of a significant number is one thing.  Me saying that my experience has included that significant number and thus was representative of ALL Harn fans would be completely different.


----------



## BryonD (Feb 2, 2004)

tkinias said:
			
		

> I fully understand wanting to avoid too much complexity, or having a hard time getting used to the feel of a new campaign setting which just doesn't have the cool stuff you are used to.  I just would hate for anyone to miss out on the Hârn system because they thought it would be too complex for them, when I find it the simplest, most elegant system I've played.  And I'd hate people to think that they can't enjoy that system without giving up all the magic and monsters they know and love.




I've really tried staying away from getting into a system merit debate.

But I've never been one to avoid games over "too much complexity".  For a long time I played a wide variety of games that were certainly quite complex.  Grant, Harnmaster was never one of them.  

But I used to actively seek out a variety of game systems, and more complex is better was virtually a criteria for me.  

Now I am convinced that more complex is nearly meaningless in the better or worse debate.  

I'll also agree that now that I have given the system a thorough skimming, it certainly does not appear as complex as I had been led to believe.  But, still, I never avoided it over that anyway.   I avoided it because of the steady negative publicity I received from the fans of it that I encountered.  I played plenty of other games, so that was sufficient reason to me to not need to add one more.

I guess a main reason I'm not interested in HarnMaster now is that I am completely satisified with D20.


----------



## GrumpyOldMan (Feb 2, 2004)

tkinias said:
			
		

> There are those `Hârniacs' who do tend to overengineer everything, looking for a rule for every situation.  Hârn can attract that sort of player or GM.  And certainly, there are those who seem to consider the complexity of their rule system some sort of measure of masculinity or something; I was probably one of those a decade ago.  Now I find that I want the rules most of all to get out of the way and (a) not bog me down with rules questions instead of roleplaying; and (b) not interfere too drastically with my ability to suspend disbelief.




I'm not sure that Hârn has exclusive claim to rules re-writers. Almost every system has its own rules engineers & rules lawyers. In fact, I'm not sure that Hârn has any more, or less, as a percentage than any other system.

GOM


----------



## GrumpyOldMan (Feb 2, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> I'll also agree that now that I have given the system a thorough skimming, it certainly does not appear as complex as I had been led to believe.  But, still, I never avoided it over that anyway. I avoided it because of the steady negative publicity I received from the fans of it that I encountered. I played plenty of other games, so that was sufficient reason to me to not need to add one more.
> 
> I guess a main reason I'm not interested in HarnMaster now is that I am completely satisified with D20.




Lots of people seem to believe that HârnMaster is a complex game. As Iron Chef said, and you seem to agree, it is nowhere near as complex as people think. The basic system is one of the simplest & most straightforward I know. Why do people assume that it will be complicated? Becuse it uses a graphic injury system, not Hit Points? I find it no more difficult than DnD and a damn sight simpler than many games, which, out of politeness, I won't name.

20 years ago I loved AD&D & Greyhawk, 15 years ago Runequest & Glorantha was the only game in town. Now, for me, it's HârnMaster & Hârn.

GOM


----------



## Iron_Chef (Feb 2, 2004)

All this talk of "elitist snob Harniacs" being a reason not to play a game or even check out the rules (especially when they're FREE in this day and age of the $30-65 core rulebook) seems pointless to me. Every system has its elitist snobs, from d20 to Warhammer to HarnMaster. It's only natural for people to gravitate toward one system that they prefer and think is the best (for their needs). Extolling the virtues of their "dream game" is also only natural, and can, to those unfamiliar with it or uninterested (for whatever reason), come off as sounding "elitist" when what they mean to sound is "enthusiastic". On message boards and chat rooms, we miss out on subtle body language and inflections, easily misinterpreting other's remarks as being something they were not intended to be. Throw in improper usage of words such as "abysmal" and you see how fires can be stoked accidentally. *cough* (Dongmaster)   

I am not offended by any any of the posts so far, but I really wish this bickering over whether or not Byron D was offended by notions of elitism on the Harn forum would go away. IMO, it's only interesting to Byron D and a handful of harniacs who seek to disprove him---it has nothing to do with what this thread should be about: the HarnMaster rules set and all things Harn, and/or how they compare and contrast to d20 and other systems. I'm sure Byron D believes there was elitism on the Harn boards and I'm sure the harniacs believe there wasn't, or not a significant majority of elitism, at any rate, seeing as how it's impossible not to have at least *some* elitism on any forum. If you think ENWorld or d20 is free of its fair share of elitism, more power to you...   

My point is, if Byron D and anyone else want to belabor this unwinnable argument any further, they should wage it by email and spare the rest of us from this irritating distraction. 

Can we please get back to discussing HarnMaster rules or the HarnWorld setting? Stay on topic, people!


----------



## hrafnagud (Feb 2, 2004)

Iron_Chef said:
			
		

> Can we please get back to discussing HarnMaster rules or the HarnWorld setting? Stay on topic, people!




And here I was thinking the thread _already_ had come back to useful discussion...


----------



## BryonD (Feb 2, 2004)

hrafnagud said:
			
		

> And here I was thinking the thread _already_ had come back to useful discussion...




Me too.

PLUS

I never claimed that there was elitism on the Harn Forums, never been there, wouldn't know

PLUS

We have clearly established that there are plenty of non-elitist Harn folks

PLUS

Those reasonable Harn folks have agreed that my non-Harn forum experiences did likely happen (as unfortunate and non-representative as they may be)

PLUS

No one EVER said that the existance of ANY elitists were a reason to not play or check out the rules.

PLUS 

I already readily acknowledged that there is PLENTY of D20 elitism here.

So, IC, is there anything else for me to clarify?  Or can we stay on topic?

Edit: In all seriousness Iron Chef, the dispute was over.  I made it clear I wouldn't respond further to DongMaster and he implied he would not be posting further anyway.  A friendly agreement has been reached between me and the other Harn fans.  So if you want to rant at me further, please, try to get the facts correct and than take you own advice, e-mail me.


----------



## BryonD (Feb 2, 2004)

Sorry, multi post


----------



## BryonD (Feb 2, 2004)

and again


----------



## Iron_Chef (Feb 3, 2004)

Am I now to be the target of flames for trying to steer this thread back on topic? I posted *on topic* originally in an effort to get this thread back on course, then you verbal brawlers posted more nonsense harping on each other back and forth. I merely called for order. To attack me thus, Byron D, proves that you are not interested in civilized discourse on the thread topic, but only in endless banal bickering. What a sad state of affairs. Get you hence from this thread so that those of us interested in intelligent, on topic discussion can be about our business in peace. You, sir, are a troll!


----------



## tkinias (Feb 3, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> I've really tried staying away from getting into a system merit debate.




I thought that was the whole point 

Well, not so much to debate which is better, but a discussion of the relative merits of gaming systems can be quite interesting and enjoyable IMHO.



			
				BryonD said:
			
		

> I guess a main reason I'm not interested in HarnMaster now is that I am completely satisified with D20.




I'm glad you have found a system which so completely fits your style of play.  For many of us, the quest for such a system was a long and often bumpy one, so when we arrive at the destination we like to point out, for the benefit of future travellers, some of the more interesting terrain we passed along the way.


----------



## tkinias (Feb 3, 2004)

GrumpyOldMan said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that Hârn has exclusive claim to rules re-writers. Almost every system has its own rules engineers & rules lawyers. In fact, I'm not sure that Hârn has any more, or less, as a percentage than any other system.




(BTW, I like the nick... I can relate. )

You're right, Hârn does not have exclusive claim, although it might tend to attract more `tinkerers' than some systems.  At any rate, such players can seem to characterize the community, perhaps because, though a minority, they are quite visible due to the community's relatively small size.  I just wanted to point out that, even if some players spend an inordinate amount of time coming up with tables for what happens when a man with a strength of 16 tries to string a 60 pound bow one-handed in the rain, that needn't be what Hârn is about, 
and the game can be quite enjoyably played without worrying about such complexities.


----------



## BryonD (Feb 3, 2004)

Iron_Chef said:
			
		

> Am I now to be the target of flames for trying to steer this thread back on topic? I posted *on topic* originally in an effort to get this thread back on course, then you verbal brawlers posted more nonsense harping on each other back and forth. I merely called for order. To attack me thus, Byron D, proves that you are not interested in civilized discourse on the thread topic, but only in endless banal bickering. What a sad state of affairs. Get you hence from this thread so that those of us interested in intelligent, on topic discussion can be about our business in peace. You, sir, are a troll!




My apologies.  I should have understood that you had the right to rant at me, including a series of factual errors, and my only recourse was to lower my eyes.

I guess that is your defintion of "civilized discourse".  

But if pointing out incorrect statements and actually responding to a rant is your definition of a troll, then I am guilty.  But not by any definition I have heard before this evening.

For "merely" calling for order, you sure needed a lot of excess words.  Or perhaps you are overly charitable to your previous statements.

But whatever, I'll just file you the same as DongMaster and let you say whatever you want from now on.  If the actual words you type have no meaning to you, they certainly should not have any for me.

But if thou wilt bequeath thine debased troll with the honor, I believe I shalt linger hither for some time.


----------



## BryonD (Feb 3, 2004)

tkinias said:
			
		

> I thought that was the whole point




Well certainly it can be.

And honestly, if luck had seen to it that someone other than DongMaster first replied to me, things may have gone a vastly different path.  So, for me personally already being the anti-Harn guy for reasons having NOTHING in the world to do with mechanics AND me being FAR FAR from proficient in the HarnMaster system, it just didn't make much sense for me to go there.

I hope you understand.  It certainly isn't an effort to blow off the discussion.


----------



## tkinias (Feb 3, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> But if thou wilt bequeath thine debased troll with the honor, I believe I shalt linger hither for some time.




Linger on, o debasèd Troll!  I shall offer no let to thee; parley as thou wilt.


----------



## Ridley's Cohort (Feb 4, 2004)

GrumpyOldMan said:
			
		

> Lots of people seem to believe that HârnMaster is a complex game. As Iron Chef said, and you seem to agree, it is nowhere near as complex as people think. The basic system is one of the simplest & most straightforward I know. Why do people assume that it will be complicated? Becuse it uses a graphic injury system, not Hit Points? I find it no more difficult than DnD and a damn sight simpler than many games, which, out of politeness, I won't name.




Spot on.

The Harnmaster rulebook pagecount is _much_ smaller than 3e while having the same basic advantage of a unified skill system.  In actual play it is comparable to 3e.  Yes, you have location damage.  But you do not have the dizzying array of bonuses/maluses a mid/high level character will have to their AC/Attack Bonus.  It is really a matter of where you prefer your bells and whistles.


----------



## DongMaster (Feb 4, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> And honestly, if luck had seen to it that someone other than DongMaster first replied to me, things may have gone a vastly different path.




You seem to have an obsession with me like I have with this thread... 

Now, what people usually mistakes for elitism like Iron Chef (is that with Bork, Bork, Bork!?) told us about, is nothing more than enthusiasm and occassionally vast knowledge of the medieval eras, techniques and such. People usually gets ticked off by these facts and some even takes it personal (god knows why) because their skills are not in the same league (I know mine sure ain't compared to some of the history buffs on the Hârn Forum but I value their knowledge immensely), or that they do not care. To me that is not the same as being a snob or whatever. 

Returning to HârnMaster... The game is perfect for Hârn and is what most of the Hârniacs use. Is it perfect? No, not really but it is the most perfect for my game, and adding house rules are extremely easy. In short the game is very slick (I am talking about the 3rd ed.) and not as complicated as many would have thought. Besides I bought the D&D 3.0 rules when they came out to check 'em out, but my brain almost exploded when reading through the three books. HârnMaster complicated? Hardly. D&D? To my mushy brain yes. I am still awed how you guys can remember all those race, class etc. modifiers, feats, bonuses, tactics, and much more. I for one sure couldn't.

That is why the system works so well in a computer game like Temple of Elemental Evil, where the computer does all the number-crunching for you. Down in the dungeon I go...


----------



## Mobius (Feb 4, 2004)

ByronD said:
			
		

> We have clearly established that there are plenty of non-elitist Harn folks ...




I find it funny, ByronD, that I have had exactly the opposite experience with Harn: anti-Harn prejudice.  The first time I tried to do some proselytizing over here on EnWorld, I spent a few hours coming up with my introductory post, rewriting and rewriting, trying to make it as inoffensive and positive as I could.  I should add here that I write all the time and am no slouch at getting the tone to fit the intent, etc.  I fully expected that I would get a healthy dose of "d20 roks, HarnMaster suxx ass." which I was fully content to write off as drivel ... but I was wholly unprepared for the level of antipathy I experienced.  A good round dozen people responded, calling me an elitist snob and inviting me to take my game and go home.  I attempted a couple of times to clarify the points that seemed to be causing the biggest issues, but by and large those folks were basically uninterested in speaking rationally.  I pretty much avoided EnWorld after that because it so soured me on the community.  In comparison, the Harn Forum was a model of decorum.

I thought long and hard afterwords about how I could have phrased things more eloquently or in a more inoffensive manner, but I have to say that I don't know where I could have done better except on minor points.  It truly seemed to me like the folks here were predisposed to disliking anyone who espoused HarnMaster.  Now, there were only about twelve of them, but ...

I see the same thing in my own gaming group, too.  I bring up HarnMaster and they all start griping about how hard it is to understand, how archaic the mechanics are ... and then dive into RMS for their own campaigns.  What ridiculous irony.


----------



## tkinias (Feb 4, 2004)

Mobius said:
			
		

> I find it funny, ByronD, that I have had exactly the opposite experience with Harn: anti-Harn prejudice




There certainly is quite a lot of that out there.  My first encounter with Hârn, oh, about a dozen years ago (it was still in the first edition then) was picking it up at the local game store, thumbing through a little, and asking if anyone knew it.  The reaction was `super-realistic combat, but way too complex and totally unplayable'.  To my lasting regret, I put it down and didn't give it another look for the better part of a decade.  The irony -- which I only see now -- is that these guys were RM players who used to look down their noses at the AD&Ders, GURPSers, Vampirers, etc., for playing `baby' games.

Even recently, when a friend and I tried to get a group to switch from RM, which we were all sick of, to HârnMaster, there was considerable resistance until they actually saw it played.  The assumption, I guess, was that it was some kind of fantasy Advanced Squad Leader.

I am beginning to suspect that the reason for this is that Hârniacs tend to gush about things like the level of detail in HârnWorld and the realism of the combat rules much more than they gush about the simplicity of the system.  That is probably because there are a myriad systems which are extremely simple -- mostly IMHO to the point of being uninteresting -- making that not seem like such an outstanding feature.  What makes it all click for us is that it <em>combines</em> the detail and realism (for which, at least the latter, it's certainly not unique) with elegance (which is also not unique).  It is the combination which is exceptional.


----------



## GrumpyOldMan (Feb 4, 2004)

*Things I Like About HÂrnmaster*

To try to keep this thread on topic, here are:

THINGS I LIKE ABOUT HÂRNMASTER

Character Generation:
Generating a HârnMaster Character can take quite some time, certainly compared to the old AD&D roll 6 Character Stats, choose a character class, roll hit points.
In HârnMaster there are 12 stats to roll and every skill has a base chance calculated from three of these stats. The maths can be a little tricky, but it is not that difficult once you understand the mechanic. As with most games there are several (free) character generation programmes out there to make the GM’s life easier. HârnMaster character generation includes family size and background and the relationship between the character and their family and can even generate the characters home area.
Personally, I love this level of detail. Player characters have parents & siblings; they have a home town, or village: they are grounded in the world. They have a place where they are known (for good or ill). I realise that some people don’t like this level of detail, but as GM I love the opportunities it gives. Perhaps that ‘missing’ sister will turn up with a tale to tell, what happens when the ne’er do well brother breaks a leg out poaching, to the players cover for him, or hand him over to face the sheriff’s justice? If these opportunities are not for you, you can simply create a character without a background.

Game Mechanics
Make one percentage dice roll. There are only four results:
Critical Failure
Marginal Failure
Marginal Success
Critical Success
As has been discussed HârnMaster is a percentage based skill system. Less than your skill percentage succeeds, more fails. Critical rolls are those successes or failures ending in a 5 or a 0. How simple is that?
Combat is slightly more complicated. The two protagonists make opposed rolls and cross reference the result on a 4x4 matrix. Any hit is then resolved by rolling hit location. The magic & religious rules follow the same system. That, in less than 100 words, is pretty much the entire system. So, exactly how is this complicated?

Skill Index (SI)
If other games systems use this I haven’t found them yet. A skill index (SI) is the ‘tens’ part of a characters skill. A character with a 33% Weaponcraft skill has a SI of 3, A character with a 73% Weaponcraft skill has an SI of 7. This in one simple rule addresses the complaint that whether a character is a novice Weaponcrafter or an experienced one a critical success makes a weapon made by a novice as good as one created by a master. The SI system provides a simple matrix giving the value added based on the characters SI. In practical terms, a masters failure results in a weapon of the same quality as a novices success. This can apply to anything, that tavern singer with Sing 40% is, at her best, not as good as the trained bard giving an average performance, a good fisherman catches more fish than a poor one! Simple, neat, easy, I like it!

HârnWorld is Systemless
I came to HârnWorld before HârnMaster. Even if Hârn was a dreadful rules system, I’d still love HârnWorld. The background is completely systemless. The Kingdoms & Regions of the island of Hârn and Lythia (the adjacent continent) are described without any rules based information. No character classes, or levels, or HârnMaster skills, craftsmen & residents are described simply as people doing their job with a guide as to how good they are at their job (1-5 stars) and what they charge for their goods/services (low to very high prices). 

Odds & Ends
Hârn & HârnMaster are perceived as ‘low magic.’ It isn’t there are some powerful spells, but magic is rare. There are few mages on Hârn and they try not to draw too much attention to themselves. However, it is a lot easier to add magic, if you want more, than to remove it. I play pretty loose with some of the magic rules in my campaign.
Hârn is ‘the game where you play turnip farmers.’ No-one here has said that, but it has been said many times. Why do people think this? Is it because the rules are flexible enough so that, if you want to play poor peasants battling the weather & cruel overlords to survive, you can? Why should this be a problem? Players may be noble, guildsmen, common, serf, slave, skilled warriors, streetwise thieves, hunters at home in the wild forests, pretty much anything. There is no ‘you must be a peasant’ rule.

Grumpy Old Man
Because my kids tell me I am!


----------



## BryonD (Feb 4, 2004)

Hello Mobius,

You won't get any dispute from me on that.

I certainly known some people that would claim things to the effect that D&D was the only real game, or more recently, that D20 is the system to top all systems, without room for compare.

I suppose we just both got really unlucky draws on who we met along the way.

But the people I have met here (and based on them a brief lurking on their forums) makes me much more comfortable that it was just that for me, a bad draw.


----------



## tkinias (Feb 4, 2004)

GrumpyOldMan said:
			
		

> Hârn is ‘the game where you play turnip farmers.’ No-one here has said that, but it has been said many times. Why do people think this? Is it because the rules are flexible enough so that, if you want to play poor peasants battling the weather & cruel overlords to survive, you can? Why should this be a problem? Players may be noble, guildsmen, common, serf, slave, skilled warriors, streetwise thieves, hunters at home in the wild forests, pretty much anything. There is no ‘you must be a peasant’ rule.




Yes, this is another common one.  I think this is an effect of the classless system.  Because there isn't the clear distinction between `adventuring' classes and `common' people (just social distinctions among nobles, burghers, and peasants, depending on setting), one can make an interesting character who is not a `fighter' or `cleric' or whatever.  For example, there's no reason I can't have a peasant character who has some knowledge of how to use a pole-arm from service in a militia, who manages to acquire some clerical magic from a cult he joins -- and then, maybe, in the course of play learns to read and gets accepted into a training program for mages.  I <em>may</em> start out with a turnip farmer, but can go anywhere with him.  For that matter, I could instead have him focus his energy learning to pick pockets and scale walls.  Because there are no levels or classes, I don't need to worry that if I do the equivalent of getting a couple levels as a thief or cleric I will somehow cripple myself in the long run (by never being able to get the high-level goodies in my primary class).  So long as you don't die of old age (do PCs ever do that?), there's no limit to what you can learn.


----------



## Andrew D. Gable (Feb 4, 2004)

Turjan said:
			
		

> In Germany you have a hard time to find someone willing to play that system because of its name...




Evidently, "Harnmaster" would mean "bladdermaster".


----------



## GrumpyOldMan (Feb 4, 2004)

Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> Evidently, "Harnmaster" would mean "bladdermaster".




In the interests of accuracy, harn is german for urine (or so I'm told). The word used in the medical sense and is not one of the many slang terms.

Hence the difference between Hârn and harn. That ^ is there for a reason. Though accents slip past most Americans (and Brits) the Europeans notice them.

Also there is a fairly large Hârn community in Germany and one of the finest HârnMaster scenarios was first published as a german language adventure.

GOM


----------



## BryonD (Feb 4, 2004)

Hey GOM,

One of the popular things over here is the story hour section.  Is there anything comparable to that, which you can point me towards?  It would not need to be story hour just like the one here, but just something with some tales of actual gaming events or examples of what various groups have done within Harn and/or HarnMaster.

Thanks


----------



## GrumpyOldMan (Feb 4, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Hey GOM,
> 
> One of the popular things over here is the story hour section.  Is there anything comparable to that, which you can point me towards?  It would not need to be story hour just like the one here, but just something with some tales of actual gaming events or examples of what various groups have done within Harn and/or HarnMaster.
> 
> Thanks




Story Hour? as in campaign write ups etc.? I read very few myself and off the top of my head I can think of only two Hârn sites which feature any cmapaign write-ups. One is Perils of Perinore a PBEM www.snellings.org/perils/ (pretty much dead I suspect, a pity really) and the other is the Nolomar Rising Campaign www.nineshadoweyes.com/nolomar Ironically, Nolomar Rising apparently uses a heavily modified version of first edition D&D.

GOM


----------

