# Do dragons sleep?



## BloodyAx (Sep 2, 2005)

In the Monster Manuel, it states that "All dragons have immunity to sleep (magic sleep) and paralysis effects". What I am wondering is whether dragons sleep or not, and if they do not truly sleep, do they have an equivlilent like how elves meditate deeply.


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## BloodyAx (Sep 2, 2005)

In the Monster Manuel, it states that "All dragons have immunity to sleep (magic sleep) and paralysis effects". What I am wondering is whether dragons sleep or not, and if they do not truly sleep, do they have an equivlilent like how elves meditate deeply.

Also, if dragons have blindsense and keen senses, is it possible for a character to sneak up on a sleeping one? (that is what this is all about: whether a character can sneak up on a sleeping dragon by not making noise when entering it's lair and not activating traps)


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## ElvishBard (Sep 2, 2005)

I would say they sleep, because the idea of snatching the treasure while the dragon is sleeping is so prevalent that it seems like they would sleep.  Plus, with thousands of years of life and no tv, what else is there to do to pass the time?


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## Primitive Screwhead (Sep 2, 2005)

SRD Dragon Type said:
			
		

> Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe




Of course, how much, when and why are left to the individual DM as we no longer have that information in the MM entries.. no more Nocturnal Ogres!!!!


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## BloodyAx (Sep 2, 2005)

Two points, one for and one against your theory:

1) Dragons have immunity to magic sleep, like elves, which don't sleep, so maybe they dont sleep
2) If I assume that they DO sleep, it is another problem over whether with their Keen Senses and Blindsight whether or not they are automatically woken by characters that do not use magical sneaking or have like 20 points in Move Silently


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## Crothian (Sep 2, 2005)

I say use whatever works best for your game.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Sep 2, 2005)

Yes, they sleep. See the _Draconomicon_.


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## Legildur (Sep 2, 2005)

BloodyAx said:
			
		

> Two points, one for and one against your theory:
> 
> 1) Dragons have immunity to magic sleep, like elves, which don't sleep, so maybe they dont sleep



Ahhhmmm, I think the rules quote Primitive Screwhead is pretty clear that they DO sleep.



			
				BloodyAx said:
			
		

> 2) If I assume that they DO sleep, it is another problem over whether with their Keen Senses and Blindsight whether or not they are automatically woken by characters that do not use magical sneaking or have like 20 points in Move Silently



From the 3.5 SRD:



> A sleeping character may make Listen checks at a -10 penalty. A successful check awakens the sleeper.



That's be standard opposed Listen/Move Silently checks.

However, true dragons have the Blindsense ability which (from the 3.5 SRD) states:


> The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature.



I'd say that a sleeping dragon MAY have to make a listen check.  Although I'm not sure that I would apply the -10 penalty from the Listen skill description given dragons have Blindsense.


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## TheGogmagog (Sep 2, 2005)

Given Legildur's collection of quotes, I would conclude that thier blindsense would awaken them.


			
				Legildur said:
			
		

> Ahhhmmm, I think the rules quote Primitive Screwhead is pretty clear that they DO sleep.



Elf is a Humanoid.  Humanoids breathe eat and sleep.  However, the elf block specifies it's deviation from the norm, the dragon does not.  I also agree that they do sleep.


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## frankthedm (Sep 2, 2005)

TheGogmagog said:
			
		

> Given Legildur's collection of quotes, I would conclude that thier blindsense would awaken them.




I'd agree


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## Teemu (Sep 2, 2005)

You could always turn to your trusty MM glossary and check out the dragon type. You can also find it in the SRD. Here it is:







> Dragon Type
> 
> A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities.
> Features
> ...


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## Tonguez (Sep 2, 2005)

TheGogmagog said:
			
		

> Given Legildur's collection of quotes, I would conclude that thier blindsense would awaken them..




I don't agree. 
Use of Listen whilst sleeping has a specific rule attached and thus is a special case

a sleeping character can not use Spot checks (obviously) nor use any other sense (eg scent) except Listen for which there is a specific rule, I'd say that because no specific rule exists for Blindsense (tremorsense or any other 'special sense') then they can't be used by a sleeping character either.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Sep 2, 2005)

I would go with the Listen check at -10 as the Blindsense does state "..creature with blindsense *usually * does not need to make Spot or Listen checks.. "
 Sleeping is not usually in my book 

 Besides, it matches nicely with the Hobbit story.


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## Bad Paper (Sep 2, 2005)

There is a feat in Lords of Madness that allows you to make Hide and Move Silently checks against creatures with blindsense, blindsight, etc.  I think it's called Darkstalker or something.


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## IcyCool (Sep 2, 2005)

Bad Paper said:
			
		

> There is a feat in Lords of Madness that allows you to make Hide and Move Silently checks against creatures with blindsense, blindsight, etc.  I think it's called Darkstalker or something.




That sounds tasty, what are the pre-reqs for it?


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## BloodyAx (Sep 2, 2005)

Tonguez said:
			
		

> a sleeping character can not use Spot checks (obviously) nor use any other sense (eg scent) except Listen for which there is a specific rule, I'd say that because no specific rule exists for Blindsense (tremorsense or any other 'special sense') then they can't be used by a sleeping character either.




However, bindsense is "using novisual senses, such as acute smell or HEARING, a creature with blindsense notices things that it cannot see. The creature does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability..."

This means that because listening IS permitted while sleeping, as a check to notice a sneaking creature (-10 penalty), and the dragon "does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense", one could rule that it automatically hears any sneakers other than ones with the feat mentioned by Bad Paper.


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## Sejs (Sep 2, 2005)

Of course dragons sleep.  

They sleep on giant piles of treasure.  Everyone knows that.  *nod*


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## Bad Paper (Sep 6, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> That sounds tasty, what are the pre-reqs for it?



I don't have my book with me, but I think it has no prereqs.


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## Cartigan Mrryl (Sep 23, 2005)

Anyways, a Dragon DOES sleep, if you check in the MM (near the back, 3.5, at least) there's a table that says stuff about each type/sub-type. It says that Dragons DO sleep and eat. Anyways, Dragons can be snuck up on, but it would most likely take a 20 to do so, they're highly alert and are extremely cautious, mostly. Blindsense allows them to use their nonvisual abilities in order to sense beings, even in the deepest darkness. This ahs no use when they're unconscious. I guess it really depends on whether THAT specific Dragon is a light or heavy sleeper....


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## diaglo (Sep 23, 2005)

although, it says they (dragons) do. i'll add this: There's no rules for it in the core. There's also no rules that say PCs have to sleep or use the bathroom.


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## glass (Sep 23, 2005)

Cartigan Mrryl said:
			
		

> Anyways, a Dragon DOES sleep, if you check in the MM (near the back, 3.5, at least) there's a table that says stuff about each type/sub-type. It says that Dragons DO sleep and eat. Anyways, Dragons can be snuck up on, but it would most likely take a 20 to do so, they're highly alert and are extremely cautious, mostly.



There is nothing special about a 20 on a skill check. If a character with no bunus can make it on a 20, then a character with a +19 bonus can make it on a 1.

In the case of a non-sleeping dragon, you can't sneak up on it (barring some kind of special ability or feat). It's blindsense ability will trump and H/MS rolls, no matter how good. 

Whether the same applies to a sleeping dragon is unclear. If it's blindsense is fully functional, then it doesn' need to make the listen check and will awaken. And blindsense is based on hearing, which you can do while asleep, which suggests yes. OTOH, blindsesne is only partly based on hearing, and hearing works with reduced capability while asleep, so you could argue that blindsense doesn't work while asleep, or that it only works with reduced capacity.

I don't believe ther is a definitive answer to this, but my ruling would be that blindsense works at reduced capacity while asleep. It does not remove the need for the listen check to awaken, but it does remove the penalty to it.


glass.


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## diaglo (Sep 23, 2005)

just what the Giant ordered:  http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=224


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## Evilhalfling (Sep 23, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> just what the Giant ordered:  http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=224




This makes me happy


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## Corsair (Sep 24, 2005)

The rules also don't actually describe what being "dead" is.  So what?


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## Kae'Yoss (Sep 24, 2005)

ElvishBard said:
			
		

> Plus, with thousands of years of life and no tv, what else is there to do to pass the time?




Of course, there is TV. Tele-Vision = Looking into the Distance. It's called Scrying. And, depending on the dragon and his type, they either wander the lands to dispense wisdom (read: be the biggest wise-asses the lands have seen), lead unwary mortals to their doom, or just devastate whole kingdoms. 

Aaaah, to be old - and also a dragon!


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## Ranes (Sep 24, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> That sounds tasty, what are the pre-reqs for it?




The feat has no prerequisites but it only works when you hide. It does not function if you are moving silently.


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## Aaron L (Sep 24, 2005)

Well, since the fantasy trope of the sleeping dragon is QUITE pevalent, and it doesnt say that they DONT sleep, Id say that yes, yes they do.


After all, it doesnt say that they go potty, either, but Id still assume that they do.


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## Aaron L (Sep 24, 2005)

Corsair said:
			
		

> The rules also don't actually describe what being "dead" is.  So what?



...


			
				 3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> *Dead*
> 
> The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.


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## the Jester (Sep 24, 2005)

Ahh, sleeping dragons...

Remember 1st edition, when all dragons had a chance of being asleep when encountered?


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## Aeric (Sep 24, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Ahh, sleeping dragons...
> 
> Remember 1st edition, when all dragons had a chance of being asleep when encountered?




Don't forget subdual rules.  And the fact that there was a market for subdued dragons in every large city.  I always wanted to subdue a dragon, take it to town, and sell it.  Can you imagine what that interaction would have been like?  I mean, what does one do with a live dragon, anyways?  All it does is sleep....


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 24, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> (Snipped SRD quote about death)



Yes, but notice how it says how to GET to death but not what penalities death gives you.  What are penalities to hit and damage do you get?  Do you have to make concentration checks to cast spells?

Obviously, I know where you are dead you can't do much of anything...but the rules don't actually tell you that.


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