# The Dungeon Masters' Foundation



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 23, 2004)

Hail and welcome to a glorious foundation:
The Dungeon Master Foundation
The purpose of this Guild is to provide a place for DMs to complain, share ideas, get ideas, and generally have a blast with our omisience Ah yes...the beauty of omnipotency.
This is an oasis of sorts, an oasis in the desert of players. New DMs can find advise from wise and aged ones. The counsil will review applicants and make decisions. I will serve as a Overseer of the Counsil of sorts. I will make sure that the counsil is serving the DMF well. If any counsil member becomes disruptive, they shall be removed after careful consideration by the other counsil members and myself. Now for the requirements for applicants

Member Requirements:
1) Be a DM or have a desire to learn how (No freaking duh!)
2)We have removed our rating system. we will only review the experience of those applying for counsil membership. Please admit though if you are inexperienced, one of the POINTS of the DMF is to help out those who are new to being behind the screen.
3) We request that all members have a link to our thread here.

Rules for All Members
1) Be respectful to EVERYONE. EVEN INEXPERIENCED DMs, YOU were inexperienced once. Violation of this rule will get you kicked out
2) No discussion of any novels.
3) No RPing in message board

Note Bene: Anyone who has a suggested rule may present it to the counsil where it will be reviewed and either accepted of vetoed.

The Dungeon Master Counsil:
1) Mordmorgan the Mad
2) Xen155
3) Nightcloak
4) BardStephenFox
5) DungeonmasterCal


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 23, 2004)

*Members List*

MEMBERS LIST
1) ChaosEvoker (Creator and Overseer)
2) Xen155
3) Mordmorgan the Mad
4) LilMissKittyn
5) Dyne
6) DungeonmasterCal
7) Grunk
8) BardStephenFox
9) Acid Crash
10) Frukathka
11) velm
12) Y.O.Morales
13) Azul
14) The Cardinal
15) Nilhgualcm Leahcim
16) khyron1144
17) Woas
18) Imret
19) francisca
20) beldar1215
21) Nightcloak
22) John Q. Mayhem
23) siege72
24) Lady Firehawk
25) Nilhgualcm Leahcim
26) IamTheTest
27) Blade of Desecration (Previously Chosen of the Dark Sun)
28) Stone Angel
29) ender_wiggin
30) themind
31) deClench
32) derbacher
33) Aris Dragonborn
34) Cerubus Dark
35) Shuffle


Anyone who wants to join may, just post your request!


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## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 23, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> MEMBERS LIST
> Anyone who wants to join may, just post your request!




Sign me up!


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## BSF (Dec 23, 2004)

It sounds like an interesting idea.  I would be interested in hearing a little more about how you operate.  

Let's see I am currently running a game that meets 3 Fridays a month.  I have a personal forum here on EN World for my game.  There are currently 7 players in the game.

I am currently a player in a weekly game.  

I have been running games since 1980, though my l33t DMing skills weren't all that impressive when I was 10.    I have experience with several editions of D&D, as well as several other game systems.  

I have run poor games and made many mistakes over the past 24+ years.  I think I have learned from these mistakes and I am able to run a reasonably fun game.  I advocate DM/Player communication as one of the best solutions to nearly every problem.  I advocate campaign design based around multiple story arcs, NPCs with motivations, and the allowance for PCs to interact with these story arcs and NPCs in the manner of their choosing.  I allow material from a variety of sources.  I work to be sure each PC has the potential to shine in the game, and I try to allow those opportunities.  I deviate from standard CR and treasure when I want to establish a specific tone.  I want the game to revolve around the PCs while leaving the players feeling that the world doesn't.  There is always something else happening somewhere else and the impact the PCs have on the world definitely affects the people and places they are near.  The PCs in my games can always affect the world, for good or ill.  The PCs reshape the world with their actions.  I have a good time, the players tell me that they have a good time.  

Is this the type of thing you are looking for?


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## Sammael (Dec 23, 2004)

This is *way* too reminiscient of the various "guilds" and "foundations" of WotC forums. I don't think ENWorld needs this. *shudder*


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## Grunk (Dec 23, 2004)

i am a relatively new DM (been running a campaign for about a year) and feel that this would be a great resource. Sign me up!

Grunk


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 23, 2004)

DM's of all shapes, sizes, types, and expereicence are welcome here. In fact I'd like to ask you to be on the counsil if you'd want to.

As far as how we operate:
Basically, post whatever you want that pertains to DMing (anything involving D&D) what we do basiclaly is create homebrew classes, monsters, anything, complain about annoying PCs, and get and give campaign advise. The counsil are reliable expereinced DMs who can give good reliable advise. They help make decisions pertaining the the DMf, how we run, what we do, etc.

So are you joining or what?

(And apparently since people are too obsessed with th work "newb" to see the POINT of the thread, I'll change it)


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 23, 2004)

New members:
Grunk
BardStephenFox
DungeonmasterCal
Welcome to the DMF guys!


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 23, 2004)

So, let's get a real topic going here:

DO you guys find it difficult to keep a long term campaign going? WHat things do you find that help you keep it going, keep interest? what snags have you run into, and how did you get around them, or how was your campaign destroyed by them? What advise can you give or what advise do you need for campaigns?

That should get us started, talk away, and I'll post my answers soon!


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## Trainz (Dec 23, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> DO you guys find it difficult to keep a long term campaign going?




Being guys in our mid 30's, sometimes real life kicks in and tries to put sticks in our wheels, but so far, we're kicking and going.



> WHat things do you find that help you keep it going, keep interest?




Not counting 1 or 2 DM burnouts, the game sustains itself. Of course, with every different campaign I introduce a new social concept to serve the players, so that they have something new and interesting on their gaming plate.



> what snags have you run into, and how did you get around them, or how was your campaign destroyed by them? What advise can you give or what advise do you need for campaigns?




None that I can recall. Keep the game balanced and fun, and you should avoid most potential snags.


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## Trainz (Dec 23, 2004)

Edited asinine post... sorry.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 23, 2004)

Yeah I'm not in my mid thirties but I know what you mean by real life kickign in.


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## Grunk (Dec 23, 2004)

A long term campaign is extremely hard to maintain. I have been a player in 3 aborted campaigns and found the experience so frustrating, I started up my own. The first thing you need is willing players, people that are willing to commit to a regular game (once a week, 2 weeks, month, whatever). Also, make sure that you don't have any conflicts in a meta game sense. A campaign is a large commitment and you're going to be spending a lot of time with these people. If you don't like a person, or their style of play, don't be in a campaign with them. 

That said, I find it's best to establish the characters history first, before the campaign even starts. This may be a no-brainer, but I didn't really hold my players to this at first and it led to a lot of aimless drifting early on. Fun, violent, aimless drifting, but drifting none the less. 
Having character backgrounds established will allow you to think of the campaign in terms of  your characters. The bully that beat up your PCs rouge at the orphanage or the childhood sweetheart could be recurring characters, or even the culmination of the campaign. For example, The Princess Bride, Inegu Montoya (sp?)'s 6 Fingered Man. Character background will also to some extent allow you to anticipate what the PCs will do that can determine events much later in the campaign.

In terms of generating interest, a campaign is best served by an inciting incident. For example, my evil campaign began with the PCs robbing a busy hotel during a celebration. They sent the large dumb halforc NPC to create a distraction, and inadvertently set a large fire that destroyed much of the city. You need something grandiose, cinematic even. ie. the serene town of Faer has recently faced a string of assaults from local goblins. Instead of just starting the campaing with this knowledge, have them witness an assualt. Maybe their house is destroyed in the fray. 

Make it real, make it personal.

A question. What level do you generally start campaigns at? I started the evil campaign at 4th level, mostly cause I wanted to give the characters a chance to be evil early on. I'm going to start the Shackled City AP at 1st. I've even been started at 5th level before. Generally, it's cool because it starts the PCs off with some power, but I feel it may detract if the characters don't have a solid background, after all the 1st 3 levels are now important to their characters. Anyone have any opinions on this?


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## Grunk (Dec 23, 2004)

Trainz
what social concepts are you reffering to? can you give an example?
thanks
Grunk


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## Piratecat (Dec 23, 2004)

Anything that helps people DM is a fine thing. Welcome!


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 23, 2004)

Our group generally starts new PC's ar first level. In fact, we always have as longs as EVERYONE is makign a new Pc. New players or character jumping into a campaign already in progress start at the party's level.

As far as a new part goes, I can adapt to anything. Starting at high levels gives players the free dom for stuff like "I trained with teh swordmaster of the guard for ten years" or "I was the apprentice to Halaster Blackcloak for 20 years before I started adventuring..." but srating at level 1 allows for the player to relaly firm up his character with some history shared with some other good solid PCs and that helps the RPing. Each has their advantages and disadvantages I'd say.


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## Power_Word_Wedgie (Dec 23, 2004)

Well thanks for the tempting offer, but I've already have a DM resource with over 30 years of experience:  I call him diaglo.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 23, 2004)

Well I'd say its always good to have multiple sources, but hey its up to you.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 23, 2004)

This place coudl probably get alot spicier if soem of our old members woudl get here... We had 700+ posts back in the old thread.


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## Trainz (Dec 23, 2004)

Grunk said:
			
		

> Trainz
> what social concepts are you reffering to? can you give an example?
> thanks
> Grunk




I create my own campaign settings, and generally I create a new one for each new campaign.

In the current one, there are 3 islands/continents that are dominated by evil forces (Githzerai, Undead, and Devils). Also, women have a hard time being equals in those societies.

So I successfully encouraged the players to create an all-women party. 

They thus have a double challenge: avoid the evil rulers (and their minions) while trying to oppose their evil deeds, and prove to the world that women are as good as men are. And that creates a third difficulty: they are easy to spot by the evil governments because they are pretty much the only bunch of girls walking around with full adventuring attire.

That game writes itself. The RPing situations have been fun and challenging, never before did I have an easier time encouraging RPing.

It's weird watching guys playing girls kicking chauvinistic male asses. But it's fun.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 23, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> This place coudl probably get alot spicier if soem of our old members woudl get here... We had 700+ posts back in the old thread.



BEHOLD! THE RETURN OF MADNESS!

Err...ahem. Sorry. Catoblepas blood doesn't come off as easily as you'd think   .

Anyhow, is Xen going to be making an appearance?


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## Dyne (Dec 23, 2004)

Man, just got back, and there's already two pages to this.  

ChaosEvoker, why am I not on the Members List?


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## Piratecat (Dec 23, 2004)

Okay, time to step in here.  Quit hijacking this thread with discussions about "newbie." It's a lousy way to greet and welcome new members, and it's pretty much irrelevant. These folks will catch on to our culture soon enough if they haven't already, and they've been nothing but friendly -- so please be likewise.  

ChaosEvoker, thanks for removing the color tags. I've taken the unusual step of deleting the extraneous posts on colors and "newbie" so that your thread stays on topic. Feel free to email me (address in the Meta forum) if you need to discuss it.

Hey, where did the DMF host their discussions previously?


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## Piratecat (Dec 23, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> So, let's get a real topic going here:
> 
> DO you guys find it difficult to keep a long term campaign going? WHat things do you find that help you keep it going, keep interest? what snags have you run into, and how did you get around them, or how was your campaign destroyed by them? What advise can you give or what advise do you need for campaigns?




My campaign is about 12 1/2 years old and still going strong. Same world, same PCs. A few things have helped with the longevity.

- Slow advancement. PCs level approximately every six months real time, which is every 10-12 4-hour sessions. 

- Story-based plots. Lots of role-playing rewards in addition to "treasure" rewards.


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## Acid_crash (Dec 23, 2004)

You can put me on the list if you want, I wouldn't mind joining a group like this.  I am a GM and player, and I can always use more knowledge and skills to learn to get better.

I know you are aiming at just D&D, but I see most of this as just advice for GMing in general that will work for anybody who reads this, so I commend you for bringing this group up.  

Couldn't this get Stickied or something...

My first real question to the group is this... How do you successfully advertise for a game that will get people to want to play it?  I find that just listing the game and your name and number just doesn't work all that well.


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## Angel Tarragon (Dec 24, 2004)

I'd like to join as well.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> So, let's get a real topic going here:
> 
> DO you guys find it difficult to keep a long term campaign going? WHat things do you find that help you keep it going, keep interest? what snags have you run into, and how did you get around them, or how was your campaign destroyed by them? What advise can you give or what advise do you need for campaigns?!




I ran a campaign that had it's shaky beginnings in 1991, and came to full fruition in 1998 or so and ended with an epic finale the summer of 2000.  It was very easy to keep that one going, because for the most of it, I only had a small number of players (others came and went, but the "core three" stayed all the way through it from 1992 until the end.  The players really got behind the concepts of their characters, and worked as hard as I did to flesh out the setting.  

They also created long term goals for their characters, knowing there was always a chance they might not achieve them.  But it gave them, (and me) a foundation to build adventures around.  So the campaign (which was completely homebrew, by the way) was a group effort, with me at the wheel.  

In 2001, I tried to start another, but this time I made the mistake of having a "vision"; an overarching story line that would take the players from adventurous beginning to epic end.  It was also my second attempt at a 3e campaign (the first crumbled after only a few months when I had to move back to Arkansas from St. Louis) and I think my unfamiliarity with the rules at the time and realizing the players didn't have the same "vision" I did caused me to lose complete interest in it.  I should never have tried to railroad them into a story line, because my players had become accustomed to more freedom in choosing their adventure paths.  The PC's made it to about 14th level, but we've played this campaign one time this year.  One time.  My players have expressed interest many times in continuing, but I just can't get excited about it.  I've promised we would finish it, and we will, though it will be after Christmas and New Year's before we do.  

Another factor in the loss of steam is the fact we are all in our thirties (at 41, I'm the oldest), about half are married, and three of us have children.  My son, at 11, is old enough to start playing with us now, but the others still have very young children.  Add to this jobs, vacation schedules, family time that doesn't include gaming, and other interests, 2004 has been a very dry year for gaming in our group.  A couple of the guys have run other games, such as CoC d20 and another D&D campaign, so where I've dropped the ball others have picked it up to a degree.  

But I think the biggest factor contributing to the fizzling of this second campaign has been sheer burnout on my part.  I've DM'd nearly excusively for over 15 years, and I think I've begun to run out of steam creatively.  A 9 years-long campaign, even with terrific input by the players, can take a lot out of a person creatively, and I think I should've taken about 2 years as a player before putting on the DM hat again.

I guess if I had any advice about running a long-term campaign would be to let the players contribute.  Don't let them dictate the course of the game, but pay attention to what they want as characters.  Players can many times give you ideas for great adventures that you just want to beat yourself up over because you didn't think of them.  And once you finish a long term game, take a break.  Don't try to start another right away.  

There, I think I've rambled on quite enough.


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## Wereserpent (Dec 24, 2004)

Sammael said:
			
		

> This is *way* too reminiscient of the various "guilds" and "foundations" of WotC forums. I don't think ENWorld needs this. *shudder*




This thread camne from the WOTC forums after the creator did not like the policy there regarding foundations.

EDIT: Woops, he beat me to it.


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## velm (Dec 24, 2004)

this looks interesting.  can I play?  Granted, I have not actually done anything in a while, but it is always good to share ideas.

But, I have found it to be difficult to run a long term game.  My most rencent groups had two different problems with a long run scenario.  Group 1 had the problem of connecting the dots together.  It really was not difficult, I think taking a step back, they were more 'combat' orientated.  There is not much wrong with that to me, as the game is about fun, and they were having fun.  One of the guys was really new, so he was still getting the feel for it.  Group 2 had a different reason(s) for a long term adventure failing.  One reason was skeduling (I think I spelt it wrong), just really difficult to get everyone together at once.  The other reason was I think I was putting too much into it.  It was a mistake that I made, and I learned from it.  Getting a long term adv is like baking a cake.  There are a lot of things you can put in it to make it good, but too much of one thing and not enough of another can ruin it.

I really only wanted to play, but as time went on, it got to be more and more difficult to find a person to run games, so I stepped up to the plate and got the DMG and started to read.  Now that I look back at it, I like to run and play equally as much.  When I run, I get to have control and be a story teller.  When I play, I get to just be 'free' and forget about alot of stuff, and it can be a good break.

Some of the best compliments I can get is when a player will say something about an NPC they met a few months ago in the past.  That is always heart warming, they either loved that NPC (to a degree, as they found them helpful or just stuck out in the players mind) or despised them (as an antogonist).


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

We're growing fast once again:
New members
Acid Crash
Frukathka
velm


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

MORDMORGAN! DYNE!

*hold out arms to greet some old buddies* Welcome back! If you can get SotM and Shard back here. I mgiht consider giving them their counsil positions back even though they bowed out.....Though we STILL need another counsil member....

Btw here's how that works:
Anyone who feels that someone would make a good Counsil member, nominate them, if they accept the nomination the counsil will vote on them. (Myself included) No nominating yourself. Until then....anyone need campaign assistance/general DMing advise?


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## Wereserpent (Dec 24, 2004)

I find that it is hard to keep my players interested for loo=ng campaigns.  They inevitably go off topic every feew seconds.  But then again, all of my players are social players who dont know the rules, so meh.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

Whoa, this moves just as fast as the last thread.

I don't really find it too hard to maintain a campaign, mostly because we only play the really long one every 6 months. A friend of mine who lives in Missouri drives all the way down here to Texas to play in my Ravenloft game, so I've got tons of time to prepare.

We're talking about re-starting everything because of the new Warlock class in Complete Arcane and some of the feats in Libris Mortis. The main character (Sorin Valdis, played by my friend from Missouri) is a hunter of the undead who seeks to become a ghost to better defend his loved ones (sounds strange, but it works). The other player in the game (some may remember Evandele from the other thread) changes characters every once in a while based on where Sorin goes and who he adventures with. We all look forward to the game (the next one will happen in about 2 weeks   ), and it's definitely the highlight of my (gaming) year.

If you're interested, I'll let you know how it comes out.

Oh, btw, if anyone runs a horror-based campaign, I'd love to give some advice and share tips and stories. Horror is the best (IMHO)


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

Oh I'm interested in hwo this turns out....

Here's an example of strange, I'm currently playing as I type this and we had a small break so I came here. We JUST restarted our campaign so a player coudl be a Warlock...coincidence...or not <_< >_>


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## Evilhalfling (Dec 24, 2004)

hmmm.. 
1) how is this differernt from the usual threads that you don't have to sign up for before commenting ? 

2) I have run 4 3rd ed campaigns, each lasting aproximatly a year.  Each ended through either DM Burnout or Life changes - like moving out of St. Louis in 2001, or starting 12 hrs of grad school. 
two games actually had planned climaxes, and were designed as stories with a primary arc plus subplots. 

The starting levels were 2nd-3rd 
Frequent charater changes seem to be hard on a campaign, as most of the replacements were not as well developed as the orginal.  

Recently I started playing a game at 12th, and the characters were far less developed then the built from low lvl ones.  Most seemed just to be built for power.  (which we need as 1-2 deaths per session is common) We are also playing a modified published game rather than homebrew, and the lack of dimesions outside the dungeon are irritating to me.   hmm.. DM/Player communication that just might work


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

I find that starting at low levels is more rewarding in the long run. Players are more attatched to thier characters (especially after surviving the low-HP levels), and more likely to RP. I find that especially in Ravenloft, starting from low levels adds to the hatred of the villain and the slow descent into evil (or the struggle to prevent that descent).

I'll keep you all posted on our game (which likely won't be more than one complete adventure).


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

@ Evilhalfling
Its a foundation that you can join, feel a part of, and connect with other gamers in. Why does anyone join a foundation/club? 

@ Mordmorgan
yeah I agree, our game kindo f burned at the end, nto enough sleep (or caffine  ) and it kind of got weird (Let's jsut say our Warlock is now married to Shar who is a mortal now)


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

Dyne said:
			
		

> Man, just got back, and there's already two pages to this.
> 
> ChaosEvoker, why am I not on the Members List?



Sorry about that, I was kind of caught doing about 30 things at one time...


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## Y.O.Morales (Dec 24, 2004)

*I'm joining too.*

 I've been playing RPGs in general since 2000 (quite new), DMed for 1 1/2 year, and now I'm preparing for a 2-years campaign.

 By the way, ChaosEvoker, before starting this thread/foundation, I recommend that you first familiarize with ENWorld's rules and community (see introductory thread here). We're a different breed of gaming community 

 And welcome. I look forward to contribute in the coming months.


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## Dyne (Dec 24, 2004)

Yep, this thread is gonna grow just as fast (if not faster) as the old one.

I'll get ahold of SotM and Shard.

BTW, my group has only run a single campaign together. All of us are buddies from school, so we would just get together after school to play. It ended up as only 3 people, including me. The other two were a Barbarian and a Fighter, so I decided to run another character alongside them as a Cleric.

We started at Level 1 and went from there. There were plenty of times in which we were almost wiped out, but we worked together to get ourselves out of it. I'm glad I ran my Cleric with them because it became very necessary to have a healer in the group (what with the trouble they got themselves into).

We made it as far as 5th or 6th level. Starting at 1st level, we had a lot more opportunity to develop our characters as individuals and as a group. It allowed for some "bonding time." (even though our Fighter almost hit the Barbarian on several occasions, whether by an arrow or by a flask of acid).

We eventually had to disband. I'm trying to get another game going, but this time with hopefully a few more people. I was gonna run a game in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, since it seems to have some pretty cool stuff in it. I also have a bunch of modules to run as miscellaneous adventures.

Our last campaign was basically a bunch of miscellaneous adventures stacked together with a plot in the background that the Players would sometimes learn a little bit more about. I also realized that I unintentionally made our last campaign a low-magic world, since I wasn't giving them as much magic items as I was supposed to. OOPS! But, it actually made the game a little more enjoyable, IMO. The game was more fun when magic was something mysterious and unique in the background. When magic items were used in the game, they were more powerful and more interesting than the average +1 Longsword or Ring of Protection. I even gave the Fighter a ring that would have many different powers that he would have to unlock. So far, he'd only gotten it to use Teleport and to insult him.  

P.S.
Sorry for rambling.


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## Acid_crash (Dec 24, 2004)

I guess my first question got lost in the shuffle so I ask it again...

What steps would you take if you wanted to get a good group together down at the LGS?

I ask because I am doing something wrong...I leave my phone number and name, but is there more I should be doing?  I know that this might seem like something a lot of you might know how to do but I am still relatively new and learning all this.


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## Dinkeldog (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> We JUST restarted our campaign so a player coudl be a Warlock




We don't restart.  We just hold an amnesty day every once in a while and make sure any new stuff gets incorporated.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> I guess my first question got lost in the shuffle so I ask it again...
> 
> What steps would you take if you wanted to get a good group together down at the LGS?
> 
> I ask because I am doing something wrong...I leave my phone number and name, but is there more I should be doing?  I know that this might seem like something a lot of you might know how to do but I am still relatively new and learning all this.



I'd try the WotC boards and post here. (I don't know if EN World has a similar forum, but I assume they do).

Re: Low-magic worlds: I've been doing the same thing in my Ravenloft game. Ideally, I'd like to make magic as rare and dangerous as possible (which is one reason for the Warlock rebuild). I use rituals much more than average spellcasting, and magic items are almost unheard of. To balance this out, I've allowed PCs to "spontaneously" create magic items through periods of IC stress. Basically, if thier character hates werewolves and hunts them relentlessly, the character's favorite short sword may spontaneously become a _+1 werewolf bane short sword_ after a particularly difficult battle with the character's hated foe. (Note that the sword is only a _bane _ weapon in regards to _werewolves_, not other lycanthropes). I find this makes the PC less likely to "dump" magic items they find. Of course, I still use potions (which IG are expertly crafted alchemical or herbal mixtures), scrolls, and wands (which function the same, but can be shaped like anything [ex. a _wand of daylight_ may appear as a shiny brass lantern]).



			
				Dyne said:
			
		

> P.S.
> Sorry for rambling.



 Me too.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

Welcome to the DMF Y.O.Morales!

I haven't really tried much with a low magic world. I personally like the high magic levels, though I can see the advantages of a low magic world. But since everything in D&D does have a counter/weakness of some kind, I usually find that high-magic worlds aren't a problem.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> I haven't really tried much with a low magic world. I personally like the high magic levels, though I can see the advantages of a low magic world. But since everything in D&D does have a counter/weakness of some kind, I usually find that high-magic worlds aren't a problem.



I wouldn't call a high magic setting "problematic", it's just not my particular brand of vodka. Especially in Ravenloft, where knowledge is power (and often corrupting power), magic can be particularly frustrating for a DM. Of course, IMC, if a player throws a fireball anywhere near a town (and someone sees it), the PCs will most likely be branded witches and run out of town, or worse.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

Ouch, I see what you mean. Sounds like fun. My players tend to be reckless. For instance our Warlock got ticked, killed a commoner in the streets of WATERDEEP, and basically got run out of town. (Luckily he wasn't killed he managed to get away)


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Ouch, I see what you mean. Sounds like fun. My players tend to be reckless. For instance our Warlock got ticked, killed a commoner in the streets of WATERDEEP, and basically got run out of town. (Luckily he wasn't killed he managed to get away)



If you really want to discourage this kind of behavior, you may want to send a Justiciar (from Complete Warrior, I think) after him. Maybe the commoner was the favorite servant of a Merchant Lord or something, and he/she wants vengance for the loss. The PC doesn't have to be killed, but he may be put in prison for a while or forced to make some kind of penance.


----------



## Azul (Dec 24, 2004)

What the heck...  sign me up too!


----------



## The Cardinal (Dec 24, 2004)

I really would like to join this most holy of orders


----------



## Nilhgualcm Leahcim (Dec 24, 2004)

I would like to join as well.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 24, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> What steps would you take if you wanted to get a good group together down at the LGS?




This has never been an issue for me.  My home town just got an FLGS.  He offers in store gaming on weekends, but my group has so much trouble getting together in someone's house anymore it's not worth the effort to try and assemble at a store.  I spoke to the store owner the other day, and he told me that the instore gaming has been pretty hit and miss, with some weekends having 2 dozen people on one night, and 2 the next.  

I'd like to just drop in on a pick-up game sometime, though.  I've played with the same bunch of people (more or less) for over 15 years.  GenCon was a blast for me, as I got to play with other folks for a change.  But starting a regular FLGS store game?  Not for me.  I don't have time to play with my own group, much less a bunch of new folks.


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

Wow, this really is catching on fast.

To ChaosEvoker: I PMed Shard and Student of the Mind last night on the WotC boards, but no responce yet. Do you know if Xen or LilMissKittyn are planning to make an appearance?


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

Holy crap we're growing faster than a weed....(Even maybe faster than the HEF *inside joke for Dyne*) This is awesome:

New Members 
Azul
The Cardinal
Nilhgualcm Leahcim

Welcome to the DMF!

@Mordmorgan
hmm...a justicar...nice idea. I've burned out on DMing for our main group (I regularly DM 3 groups) So someone else will be taking over for a while, I'm thinking of going for a Warmage, but we'll see what I get for christmas before I decide....


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> Wow, this really is catching on fast.
> 
> To ChaosEvoker: I PMed Shard and Student of the Mind last night on the WotC boards, but no responce yet. Do you know if Xen or LilMissKittyn are planning to make an appearance?



I know the two of them IRL. Xen is off for the holidays but will return soon. LMK is also gone for the holidays and will return around the beggining of January.  (which makes me sad   [LMK is my g/f])

This place seems to be catching on here WAY faster than back at WotC. It's awesome!


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> This place seems to be catching on here WAY faster than back at WotC. It's awesome!



And if I might say, the Mods here seem infinitely cooler.

Re: Warmage: I never like the idea of using anything from the Minis Handbook, but the warmage doesn't sound too bad. Are you guys starting up a new game?


----------



## Piratecat (Dec 24, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> And if I might say, the Mods here seem infinitely cooler.




I wouldn't bitch about WotC mods; they have a difficult and thankless job, and on the whole I think they handle it pretty well.


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I wouldn't bitch about WotC mods; they have a difficult and thankless job, and on the whole I think they handle it pretty well.



That's true. I find that most of them are quite helpful.


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> We don't restart.  We just hold an amnesty day every once in a while and make sure any new stuff gets incorporated.



I did that every once in a while in my Forgotten Realms game. It seemed to work out ok, but I think it detracted a little from the game.


----------



## LilMissKittyn (Dec 24, 2004)

*Miscellaneous ramblings*

LilMissKittyn is here! Sorry I'm late, I can't always control my schedule when I'm not at home.

I'm glad to have a new home for the DMF. Personally, I gave WizO_Cat a nice satirical reply to the warning email. I know they have a thankless job, but this one needed to think every once in a while.
*Ahem* Ok, I won't rant anymore. Has anyone checked on regulations here? That "report this post" button doesn't look too friendly.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is LilMissKittyn, and I am a self-proclaimed newb DM. I know it's a taboo word here, but you guys should know that I WILL ask stupid questions, and no, I'm not stupid, just inexperienced. My personal disclaimer.
And yes, I am ChaosEvoker's g/f. (He wasn't supposed to tell anyone. )

Just a rehashing from the old foundation. And now for my first naive question:
What's the best way to work transient PC's into a campaign? (People that can't play all the time, but still want to be able to play).


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Allow me to introduce myself. My name is LilMissKittyn, and I am a self-proclaimed newb DM. I know it's a taboo word here, but you guys should know that I WILL ask stupid questions, and no, I'm not stupid, just inexperienced. My personal disclaimer.
> And yes, I am ChaosEvoker's g/f. (He wasn't supposed to tell anyone. )



 So, the Kittyn is out of the bag, huh?   


> Just a rehashing from the old foundation. And now for my first naive question:
> What's the best way to work transient PC's into a campaign? (People that can't play all the time, but still want to be able to play).



It really depends on where (and what level) the PCs are. In a big city, it's no problem. In the middle of a dungeon, it gets a little harder.

I find that _message _ is always a good spell to use in these instances. If you know a player will be playing next session, have someone in the party send his/her character a _message_ asking them to come to X location. If they're low level, you have to leave enough time for the PC to make the journey. At higher levels, _teleport _ and _greater teleport_ come in handy.

Another option is to allow the player to run multiple characters, at least one of which is always near the PCs. This is a little harder to keep track of, but I find it the most fun.


----------



## LilMissKittyn (Dec 24, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> Another option is to allow the player to run multiple characters, at least one of which is always near the PCs. This is a little harder to keep track of, but I find it the most fun.




Wait. So the DM runs one of the characters so they can stay near the other PCs?


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Wait. So the DM runs one of the characters so they can stay near the other PCs?



Not unless you want to. At higher levels, some PCs might have cohorts or followers (or hired guards at any level) that travel with them. A transient player might take over one of these characters for a while.


----------



## LilMissKittyn (Dec 24, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> Not unless you want to. At higher levels, some PCs might have cohorts or followers (or hired guards at any level) that travel with them. A transient player might take over one of these characters for a while.



I see. Thanks for the advice. ^_^


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

Hmm interesting, making a cohort into a temp. PC....if only any of our players would take the Leadership feat.......



			
				Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> Re: Warmage: I never like the idea of using anything from the Minis Handbook, but the warmage doesn't sound too bad. Are you guys starting up a new game?



no this is the Warmage from Complete Arcane it is awesome!



			
				LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> And yes, I am ChaosEvoker's g/f. (He wasn't supposed to tell anyone.   )



Yes well they deserved to know. I think Lady_Firehawk from the old school days had some significant relationship to Mordmorgan. Anyway,that's all for now, keep the DMf going strong guys!

P.S. Still no word from SotM and Shard....Dyne hasn't been one for a little while too...


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Hmm interesting, making a cohort into a temp. PC....if only any of our players would take the Leadership feat.......



It's entirely worth it as long as the DM is supportive. Set up a base somewhere (even a cave complex will do) and start building an army. It's fantastic!



> no this is the Warmage from Complete Arcane it is awesome!



Yeah, I figured that. I'll have to take another look at it. I don't have the Minis Handbook, but that's just because I come from the good ol' days of 2e where you didn't have to use minis to remember what's going on   




> Yes well they deserved to know. I think Lady_Firehawk from the old school days had some significant relationship to Mordmorgan.



Haha! I wish, she sounded cute   . (Has anyone PMed her to let her know we've moved?)



> P.S. Still no word from SotM and Shard....Dyne hasn't been one for a little while too...



Umm...it IS X-mas eve, you know. I'm sure they've got families 'n stuff


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

That's true, I'm goign to my Grandma's later today.

Hmm...I geuss I just got the wrong impression with Lady_Firehawk, ah vell.

Oh trust me...I know about building armies....armies indeed.....MUWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (If you remember the Staff of Racanath I posted recently back at the WotC boards, my character MADE that sucker and USED it to make an army of undead from the remains of a war he started between the Swort Coast North and Amn.


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Oh trust me...I know about building armies....armies indeed.....MUWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (If you remember the Staff of Racanath I posted recently back at the WotC boards, my character MADE that sucker and USED it to make an army of undead from the remains of a war he started between the Swort Coast North and Amn.



I prefer living warriors. Call me crazy, but the living will always be stronger than the dead.

(P.S. I think I finally got my sig nailed down, now to work on the avatar 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## Y.O.Morales (Dec 24, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Has anyone checked on regulations here? That "report this post" button doesn't look too friendly.



 Read the rules here. And hey, you're blinding me with your signature.


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

Ok where are you getting these other smileys Mordmorgan?

I like the rules system here, fair, clean, and not overly restrictive

Good thing about undead warriors:
Don't need to be fed
Never get tired (especially helpful when chasing routing living armies)
And best of all: Mindless.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 24, 2004)

The Complete Arcane Warmage is the same as the one in the Minis Handbook, right?  I think they changed the spell list some, but that's it....right?

Oh, and as far as classes go from the MHB, the Marshall is a great class.  If I weren't so in love with my Soulknife now, I'd be playing that.


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

So it suddenly hit me: Wo no logne rhave an Artifact Corner, I think I can host a new one, but I'm gonna want some stuff to fill it up with first, post your creations here, once I've got a few I'll make an Artifact Corner for us where we can store our creations! Creations can be anything: homebrew monsters, battle/rules systems, spells, classes, PrCs, and, or course, items! ANything you create can go in the DMFAC (which i'll probably rename to the Dungeon Masters' Foundation Creation Corner [DMFCC] to make it more accurate)

So post your creations guys! Long Live the DMF!!!


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> The Complete Arcane Warmage is the same as the one in the Minis Handbook, right?  I think they changed the spell list some, but that's it....right?
> 
> Oh, and as far as classes go from the MHB, the Marshall is a great class.  If I weren't so in love with my Soulknife now, I'd be playing that.



Man I love Soulknives!! As for the Warmage, idk I don't have the Mini's HB. I just liek the idea of a mage that can cast spells and wear Armor and such. (I cast REALLY offensively anyway, This class fits me well I think)

I begin to wonder if they'll ever make a D&D 4.0.......if so, will I live to see the day? Sorry random thoughts.....


----------



## Imperialus (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Creations can be anything: homebrew monsters, battle/rules systems, spells, classes, PrCs, and, or course, items! ANything you create can go in the DMFAC (which i'll probably rename to the Dungeon Masters' Foundation Creation Corner [DMFCC] to make it more accurate)
> 
> So post your creations guys! Long Live the DMF!!!



You might want to concider the house rules forum... there are dozens of new classes, monsters, rules tweaks, heck even campaign settings posted on there pretty consistantly.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Man I love Soulknives!! As for the Warmage, idk I don't have the Mini's HB. I just liek the idea of a mage that can cast spells and wear Armor and such. (I cast REALLY offensively anyway, This class fits me well I think)




I like the Warmage, and the Battle Sorcerer variant from Unearthed Arcana is pretty cool, too.



			
				ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> I begin to wonder if they'll ever make a D&D 4.0




Yes, rest assured they will.  But I've seen so many threads here on ENW and WotC postulating this very thing I don't even wanna get into it... lol...it's Christmas, after all.  I want to enjoy the 3.x gaming goodies I'll be getting without worrying about their planned obsolesence.


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

Agreed DungeonmasterCal.

As for the house rules forum, the DMFCC is a place where we keep our creations, but also our history, and several otehr thing, once I get some stuff to put in it you'll see what I mean.


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Ok where are you getting these other smileys Mordmorgan?



Go to the WotC boards and do a search for "Custom Smilies". There's a thread with the same name by Edymnion and he's got lots of great stuff.


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 24, 2004)

I see, wow this thing is already 3/4 of the way to 100 posts! I think we already ahve more members than we had, keep it up guys!

I've never seen the Battle Sorceror variant what is it?


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 24, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> I've never seen the Battle Sorceror variant what is it?




Ehh..off the top of my head, it's a sorcerer with a more restricted spell progression, but with better hit die and BAB.  I'm not able to get to my copy of Unearthed Arcana now, but essentially it trades off spell power for muscle power.  I've seen a couple of pretty heated debates on ENW about the pros and cons of the Battle Sorcerer vs. the Warmage, and it seems they come out about even.


----------



## Y.O.Morales (Dec 24, 2004)

Where will this DMFCC reside? In a thread or in its own website?

 Look, I don't mean to be rude (I'm just offering my suggestions), but you guys come here all of a sudden to start this organization without familiarizing with what this community has to offer. ENWorld is like a big DMs Foundation, so it would be good to define the scope of this organization in the first place. Don't see ENWorld solely as a place to resurrect the foundation, to outbest the previous one with more members or posts, or to prove that these boards are better than WotC's, but rather as a place to blend in with other gamers in a polite environment.

 Gaming advice, house rules, and all that stuff... sure! But all of that is already available across different threads here in ENWorld (with threads such as the DM Advice  ones by Mark).

   I tried my best not to sound rude, and apologies to the Mods if this breaks the rules:


> Rule 1:
> ...but be careful about ascribing motives to the actions of others or telling others how they "should" think...


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## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 24, 2004)

Ehh...I just look at this as another thread with a very specific purpose and not an exclusive and shadowy organization designed to punish unwitting PC's.  

Or maybe it is.....


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 24, 2004)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Ehh...I just look at this as another thread with a very specific purpose and not an exclusive and shadowy organization designed to punish unwitting PC's.
> 
> Or maybe it is.....



 What purpose...? Honestly, I've been reading this thread since the beginning and am a bit confused. It seems to me that everything that's trying to be done in this thread could easily be done in about three or four other forums here on ENWorld. Just my opinion, though.


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## khyron1144 (Dec 24, 2004)

I wanna join up.

I've been gaming for over half my life (15 of my 23 years), and actually DMing for most of that time.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 25, 2004)

Y.O.Morales said:
			
		

> Read the rules here. And hey, you're blinding me with your signature.




 But my sig is so colorful! If it's really bothering you, I can change it, though.

Thanks for the update on rules. It looks like we'll be ok here.


----------



## Darkness (Dec 25, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> But my sig is so colorful! If it's really bothering you, I can change it, though.



 A  tag might do the trick if you want it to stay colorful.


----------



## LilMissKittyn (Dec 25, 2004)

Darkness said:
			
		

> A  tag might do the trick if you want it to stay colorful.





Would changing it to white be ok instead? If not, let me know, please. 



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> What purpose...? Honestly, I've been reading this thread since the beginning and am a bit confused. It seems to me that everything that's trying to be done in this thread could easily be done in about three or four other forums here on ENWorld. Just my opinion, though.





			
				Y.O.Morales said:
			
		

> Look, I don't mean to be rude (I'm just offering my suggestions), but you guys come here all of a sudden to start this organization without familiarizing with what this community has to offer. ENWorld is like a big DMs Foundation, so it would be good to define the scope of this organization in the first place. Don't see ENWorld solely as a place to resurrect the foundation, to outbest the previous one with more members or posts, or to prove that these boards are better than WotC's, but rather as a place to blend in with other gamers in a polite environment.




It said in the first post that we're basically a discussion group for any DMs who wish to join. Basicallly, we're just trying to stay together, which is why we set up our own group here. If we offend anyone by doing so, we can most likely move elsewhere. As far as similar organizations on the site, I'm sure that the group members will find the other organizations and join them (it being Christmas Eve, I haven't had the chance to navigate the boards yet).  Like I said, if we are unwelcome here, I'm sure we can find somewhere else to reside.
We're not trying to outbest anyone, and we're not trying to prove anything. We moved from the WoTC boards in somewhat of a hurry because we rejected someone from the council who was not fit for the position (I won't say anything more, out of respect for the regulations). I repeat: we just want to stay together in a place where we can run the foundation as we believe it should be operated. We're not trying to offend anyone.

If I do not speak for the group in this, please let me know.


----------



## Woas (Dec 25, 2004)

Umm.. Could I sign up for this?


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## Darkness (Dec 25, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Would changing it to white be ok instead? If not, let me know, please.



 Feel free - it was just a thought.  Nor did I really mind the colors, for that matter.


			
				LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Basicallly, we're just trying to stay together, which is why we set up our own group here. If we offend anyone by doing so, we can most likely move elsewhere.



 You're certainly welcome to stay here. If someone doesn't like your thread, they can feel free to ignore it.


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 25, 2004)

Darkness said:
			
		

> You're certainly welcome to stay here. If someone doesn't like your thread, they can feel free to ignore it.



Darkness, you're my new favorite person 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I believe LilMissKittyn speaks for all of us. We don't want to exclude anyone, nor bother anyone, we just want a place to help DMs, be helped by DMs, and generally have a good time.

To those who'd like to sign up, you are most welcome here. As a matter of ceremony, I like to let ChaosEvoker make the announcements (he gets a kick out of those   ).

To LilMissKittyn: I liked your sig with the colors. I would recomend the small size though.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 25, 2004)

Oh, I've got nothing wrong with you guys. Just seems to me like you don't really need a special thread or anything. ENWorld as a whole works well enough.


----------



## Dyne (Dec 25, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> P.S. Still no word from SotM and Shard....Dyne hasn't been one for a little while too...




Sorry, hard to keep track of things here. I don't usually post on these forums.


----------



## Eridanis (Dec 25, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> We don't want to exclude anyone, nor bother anyone, we just want a place to help DMs, be helped by DMs, and generally have a good time.




You've certainly come to the right place; ENworld has always been a place for DMs and players, experienced or novice, to trade ideas. The whole place is a resource for everyone. Welcome aboard! The more the merrier.

(Please check out our few simple  rules if you haven't done so already. Basically, we outlaw real-world political and religious discussions; but very, very few people who come here fail to be "civil, clean, and on-topic." We love our board members.  )


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 25, 2004)

Uh oh, I feel a group hug coming on...  

I don't think we absolutely NEED a separate thread for this, but it's definitely handy. Here, you can be sure that you won't get flamed, that you'll recieve only constructive criticism, etc. I can't speak from experience about EN World, but over at the WotC boards (where this thread was origionally concieved), there are a few posters who aren't so kind as we.

I'm glad we've found a receptive home here at EN World   . That said, anyone need help with thier game?


----------



## Greylock (Dec 25, 2004)

Have you guys looked around this joint much yet? I ask, because there ARE a ton of resources here. Get out and about, and explore here a little. I've only been here 8 monthes, give or take, and it's where I spend most of my internet day now. 

There's hardly a question you can ask that hasn't been addressed many times over already. Many q?s are repeated ad nauseam, but with new itterations every time. Makes for interesting reading.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 25, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> Uh oh, I feel a group hug coming on...
> 
> I don't think we absolutely NEED a separate thread for this, but it's definitely handy. Here, you can be sure that you won't get flamed, that you'll recieve only constructive criticism, etc. I can't speak from experience about EN World, but over at the WotC boards (where this thread was origionally concieved), there are a few posters who aren't so kind as we.
> 
> I'm glad we've found a receptive home here at EN World   . That said, anyone need help with thier game?




Hopefully, you won't get flamed around here. 

And as for help. Really, about all I need is a good kick in the rear to get my act together to working on my homebrew. So many pieces in different places that I really should work on but just never get around to it...hmm, methinks I'll just go update my story hour to avoid it yet again.


----------



## Imperialus (Dec 25, 2004)

hey the DMF is by no means the first "bizzare" group to end up hanging their underwear on the line outside Erics place... Nutkinland, The Communist Party of Eric Noah, Hivemind... need I go on?

As for flames I remember finding this site before 3E was even released... I was going to tech school so it would be 99/00 I suppose and have been poking my head in on and off ever since.  In the 4 years since I started showing up I have yet to see a serous flame war.which is a big part of the reason why I come back here instead of WoTC forums or RPG.net.  If I want to pick fights I go to SA.


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 25, 2004)

Our purpose is both specific and general. Its a place for people to bring their Dming woes to teh table, without having to divide them into 5 different threads. It's friendly, quick, easy, and conveinent. I'm aware that there are other places for resources and stuff, but why not have a place for our own resources that is localized in one spot for conveience rather than plitting between a ton of threds and having to remember where everythign is on each thread, etc.

That having been said, NEW MEMBERS!

khyron1144
Woas

Welcome to the DMF! So anyone need some campaign help? Also, we REALLY need to fill up the DM counsil.


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 25, 2004)

To LilMissKittyn: Have you started DMing your game yet?


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 25, 2004)

She doesn't have a game to DM yet, I brought her here ot get her familiar with good DMing advise adn tips, and to get her more familiar with the D&D rules.

To LMK: Not to speak for you or anything sweetheart, just thought I'd speak for you while you couldn't


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 25, 2004)

I'd be very interested to hear about her campaign, when/if it gets started (and of course, I'd be happy to help   )


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Dec 25, 2004)

excellent, actually I just had an idea, I think I have a group that needs another person ,perhaps I could incorporate her....

EDIT: Oh and btw:

POST 100!!!!


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 25, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> excellent, actually I just had an idea, I think I have a group that needs another person ,perhaps I could incorporate her....









 I'd like to hear more about your group if you don't mind.


----------



## Imret (Dec 25, 2004)

Still accepting new folks? EN long-time lurker, never even registered at the WotC forums...how many threads can a man check in a day? This place keeps me busy enough. More than half my life has included D&D in it, I was DM 90% of the time before my group had a "falling-out", and I'm addicted to homebrewing worlds. While my "core" world is occupying the bulk of my time, there are at least three others I jot down a note or two on when they occur to me.

I confess I'm currently without a group...so (shameless plug alert!) if there's Victoria folks looking for another warm body in a chair, I'm game...but even without one I find D&D is most of my free time. Plus, since the group dissolved, I've been starving for people to bounce ideas off and generally discuss D&D. The crime of it is, none of my in-jokes will be funny here.  Well, maybe "Under no circumstances am I opening the abjuration cork". That's always funny. 

What's the word?


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 25, 2004)

Imret said:
			
		

> What's the word?



All are welcome here, and I'm sure that ChaosEvoker will make the official announcement sometime soon.

My regular game also died, due to RL getting in the way, but my biannual Ravenloft game is around the corner, so horray!

We're always happy to help in any way we can, even if it's just to be a sounding board.


----------



## LilMissKittyn (Dec 25, 2004)

Darkness said:
			
		

> Feel free - it was just a thought.  Nor did I really mind the colors, for that matter.
> You're certainly welcome to stay here. If someone doesn't like your thread, they can feel free to ignore it.




Thanks. It's certainly a relief to hear that, and hear such wonderful things about the boards here. ^_^ Though I don't know if I have the time to spend all day online here. :\ 



			
				Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> To LilMissKittyn: Have you started DMing your game yet?




No, I'm still fairly new to D&D in general. I keep trying to get into a group, either as a PC or a DM, but there are...complications. I'll explain in an email if you really want to know.
I'm basically here because it gives me something to do that I enjoy. Though hopefully I'll someday get books and a group of my own. ChaosEvoker, email me with the group that needs a new member, alright? We shall begin ASAP.

Once I do start DMing, which may be a while yet, I'll be on here with a flurry of questions and need for advice. I apologize in advance (I think it's in advance) for being annoying.

So, in a short answer: no. Not yet.

(And ChaosEvoker isn't "really" supposed to call me sweetheart on the boards.)



			
				Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> I'd like to hear more about your group if you don't mind.




They have a webpage with some of their past history...I don't have the link, but Xen might...



			
				Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> All are welcome here, and I'm sure that ChaosEvoker will make the official announcement sometime soon.




I suppose it falls on me to explain his schedule. He most likely won't be online until after Christmas, but I don't know for sure.

As for me, it's off to catch some Z's. I'll talk to you guys in about 16 hours!


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## Dyne (Dec 25, 2004)

I'm here. Just trying to work out some complications of My Account. For some reason, I can't get it to send me instant e-mail notifications, so that I can keep up with the thread. I checked to make sure that my e-mail address was entered correctly, and it was. Also, I'm subscribed to this thread, and it says that I'll receive instant notifications, but I've received none yet.


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## Piratecat (Dec 25, 2004)

Dyne said:
			
		

> I'm here. Just trying to work out some complications of My Account. For some reason, I can't get it to send me instant e-mail notifications, so that I can keep up with the thread. I checked to make sure that my e-mail address was entered correctly, and it was. Also, I'm subscribed to this thread, and it says that I'll receive instant notifications, but I've received none yet.




That's not your fault; we currently have email turned off to save server overhead. This will change in a month or so when we're on our new server. Until then, you'll just have to swing by now and again.


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## Dyne (Dec 25, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> That's not your fault; we currently have email turned off to save server overhead. This will change in a month or so when we're on our new server. Until then, you'll just have to swing by now and again.




All right then. Thank you.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 25, 2004)

Merry Christmas to the DMF!

I got tons of D&D stuff for christmas!!!! THIS ROCKS! 

Anyway...

@LMK
I need to contact them to make sure they haven't got someone else since I haven't contacted them in a while I 'll be getting to that post-Christmas.

NEW MEMBER
Imret

@Mordmorgan
Well I can tlel you all you want to know about our main group, what would you like me to tell you?


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## Dyne (Dec 25, 2004)

Merry Christmas, everyone. And have a good weekend.

EDIT: Just experimenting with some of the features....

I can't get the Insert Hyperlink to work. And I can't figure out the difference between Enhanced Mode and Guided Mode (neither can I at the WotC boards either). And what's the Enhanced Editor (in Options) give you that's different from the Standard Editor?

Sorry, just really new here. Perhaps I'll ask these questions in a more appropriate place....


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 25, 2004)

Merry X-mas 'n Happy holidays.

Hyperlink seems to be working fine for me

I never could figure out the difference between those two either, but oh well.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 25, 2004)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45

This seems like the place for the DMFCC. Did someone already suggest this and I'm just slow?
(See, I did go looking around.)


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## Dyne (Dec 25, 2004)

I can still use links. But I have to type out the code. At WotC, I can just click the button, enter what word I want for the link, paste the address in, and voila: link. It just saves a little time is all.


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## Imret (Dec 25, 2004)

EDIT: Fixed the issue. Ready to participate. *rubs new D&D books eagerly*


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 26, 2004)

Yeah I'll put the DMFCC there but I need creations first, did everyone have a Merry Christmas?


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## francisca (Dec 26, 2004)

Sign me up!

Experience:
Back in the 80's: lotsa basic/expert, a little AD&D 1E, some Gamma World 1e
Recent: Ran a homebrew 3.x campaign from Feb 2001 until Dec 2004, ran basic/expert again from July 2004 to Dec 2004

Future: starting a 1e AD&D Greyhawk (pre-wars even) campaign in a littel over a week, and will be running that for thr forseeable future.  I am unlilkely ever to DM plain 3.5 again, but would be glad to run any of the following d20 systemsL Conan, Excalibur, Darwin's World, New Argonauts, or Sidewinder: Recoiled.  Also, my 1e game is likely to morph into Hackmaster at some point, and I'd probably be down with C&C, once I get a gander at it.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 26, 2004)

Welcome to the DMF!

francisca

Everyone greet the new member!


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## Piratecat (Dec 26, 2004)

Mmmm. Sidewinder Recoiled -- what a great game.

For reference, posting problems should be asked in the Meta forum (way down at the bottom.) That's the forum to check if you have any technical problems or want to know what's really going on around here.

If you folk plan to use this for House Rules material (as LilMissKittyn suggests), then House Rules is the perfect place for the thread. I understand that you'd like to use one thread as sort of a catch-all for rules, advice and DM creations; which have you found you've concentrated on at the WotC boards? That'll decide what forum the thread settles in.


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## BSF (Dec 26, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> And now for my first naive question:
> What's the best way to work transient PC's into a campaign? (People that can't play all the time, but still want to be able to play).




This is a tough one.  If you are planning a campaign and you know some of the PCs will be transient, then you can try to incorporate that into the campaign.

Stage the campaign in a city where transient PCs are able to join and leave easily without breaking the suspension of disbelief.  

Or stage it in a limited geographic area where the PCs hardly ever get further than a day's journey from town.

If this is an established campaign and you know that a PC will be transient for a short term period, than move the current adventure into a locale such as the two above.

If this is an established campaign and you have players that have developed scheduling issues, then you can leave their characters onstage, but in the background.  The PC doesn't do anything unless the player is there.  The drawback to this is that the PC isn't fighting, casting spells, using skills, etc.  Depending on the group, this could seriously affect the dynamics of the party and will change the challenges they can cope with.

Another alternative would be to allow another player to play the PC.  I suggest only doing this if everyone is comfortable with it.  I have seen some people become petulant because they don't think another player did a very good job playing their PC.  

In my campaign, if I know the player can't make the session, and the group is someplace convenient to leave the PC behind for a short time, I choose that.  Otherwise, the PC is onstage and inactive.  I have no problems running groups with different experience levels so if the player isn't there, the PC isn't gaining experience.  

I had one campaign where the paladin's player had scheduling issues for a while.  Since we generally do not like to play other people's PCs, the paladin spent some sessions watching the horses until the party got back to town.  Then the paladin ended up doing some work for the church until the player could return to the game on a regular basis.  He was a bit lower level than the rest of the group, but we did a little story background for what he was busy with and I let the player do some writeups to close a little bit of the experience gap.  He never caught up, but he did fine overall through the campaign.


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## BSF (Dec 26, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> It said in the first post that we're basically a discussion group for any DMs who wish to join. Basicallly, we're just trying to stay together, which is why we set up our own group here. If we offend anyone by doing so, we can most likely move elsewhere. As far as similar organizations on the site, I'm sure that the group members will find the other organizations and join them (it being Christmas Eve, I haven't had the chance to navigate the boards yet).  Like I said, if we are unwelcome here, I'm sure we can find somewhere else to reside.
> We're not trying to outbest anyone, and we're not trying to prove anything. We moved from the WoTC boards in somewhat of a hurry because we rejected someone from the council who was not fit for the position (I won't say anything more, out of respect for the regulations). I repeat: we just want to stay together in a place where we can run the foundation as we believe it should be operated. We're not trying to offend anyone.
> 
> If I do not speak for the group in this, please let me know.




Oh, it's not a problem.  The biggest reason I asked to join up is because I like giving new players/DMs advice.  If they are more comfortable asking in this thread rather than starting a thread of their own, then that's wonderful.  

Of course, I also like giving old players/DMs advice if they ask for it.  And I sometimes want to ask for advice myself.  I've only got 24 years of experience and I haven't figured everything out. 

As you look around through the different forums, I think you will see many, many threads that cover certain aspects of what the DMF is trying to achieve.  Those will range from General Discussion, D&D Rules, and House Rules.  Then you will find a lot of material in the Rogues Gallery.  That is just a small sampling of EN World.  

It's not that you aren't welcome.  Far from it actually.  But many of us tend to think of EN World as a community that overlaps many of the DMF's goals.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 26, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Or stage it in a limited geographic area where the PCs hardly ever get further than a day's journey from town.
> 
> Another alternative would be to allow another player to play the PC.  I suggest only doing this if everyone is comfortable with it.  I have seen some people become petulant because they don't think another player did a very good job playing their PC.
> 
> I had one campaign where the paladin's player had scheduling issues for a while.  Since we generally do not like to play other people's PCs, the paladin spent some sessions watching the horses until the party got back to town.  Then the paladin ended up doing some work for the church until the player could return to the game on a regular basis.  He was a bit lower level than the rest of the group, but we did a little story background for what he was busy with and I let the player do some writeups to close a little bit of the experience gap.  He never caught up, but he did fine overall through the campaign.




These are the three I have some questions about. Frankly, the players in this group have some issues about gaming and wouldn't be comfortable with limitations. So the first setting is out.

As for letting someone run a character....I don't know. I wouldn't dare trust anyone in that group with a character of mine, nor do I think they would trust each other. So that's out too, but it's a good idea.

And the third one is out because they get grouchy about differing levels characters (from the stories I've heard). 

So, I guess my real question is, what do you do with transient characters in a mistrustful and irresponsible group?


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## BSF (Dec 26, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> Uh oh, I feel a group hug coming on...
> 
> I don't think we absolutely NEED a separate thread for this, but it's definitely handy. Here, you can be sure that you won't get flamed, that you'll recieve only constructive criticism, etc. I can't speak from experience about EN World, but over at the WotC boards (where this thread was origionally concieved), there are a few posters who aren't so kind as we.
> 
> I'm glad we've found a receptive home here at EN World   . That said, anyone need help with thier game?




If you get flamed, then report it.  Use the links, post in Meta, email the mods or if all else fails nudge me and I will do one or all of the above for you.  

We don't all agree on EN World, but we disagree politely and civilly.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 26, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> It's not that you aren't welcome.  Far from it actually.  But many of us tend to think of EN World as a community that overlaps many of the DMF's goals.




Well, first, thanks for your advice (and experience). I'll ask some pretty asinine questions, so I'm glad that there's someone who will answer them.

I guess that to us, this is just a condensed version of what the ENWorld has to offer. It's a huge network out there (when I looked earlier today, I was absolutely blown away). The problem is, I (and most of the people in this group, I suspect) don't have the time to go searching through the forums looking for answers to my questions, and it's harder to get feedback in a less personal setting, such as the large forums tend to be. We all know and respect each other (I think) here, and you can gauruntee someone will answer your questions. That's why I like it so much.
Fast, accessible, and friendly. There you go.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 26, 2004)

Oh wait. I think Mordmorgan already said most of what I posted. Sorry.


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## BSF (Dec 26, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> If you folk plan to use this for House Rules material (as LilMissKittyn suggests), then House Rules is the perfect place for the thread. I understand that you'd like to use one thread as sort of a catch-all for rules, advice and DM creations; which have you found you've concentrated on at the WotC boards? That'll decide what forum the thread settles in.




Piratecat, when they start getting houserule material together I will put together a couple of hyperlinks that ChaosEvoker can decide if he wants to toss into the first post for cross-linking.


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## BSF (Dec 26, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> These are the three I have some questions about. Frankly, the players in this group have some issues about gaming and wouldn't be comfortable with limitations. So the first setting is out.
> 
> As for letting someone run a character....I don't know. I wouldn't dare trust anyone in that group with a character of mine, nor do I think they would trust each other. So that's out too, but it's a good idea.
> 
> ...




OK, fair enough.  But I will turn this around on you.

As a DM, what do you think would best fit your (developing) style?  Give me a little more background on the game, and how you want to run it.  As well, a little info on the specific problems you see with the players.  Then we can offer a little advice on how you can address their problems while devising a solution you are happy with.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 26, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> OK, fair enough.  But I will turn this around on you.
> 
> As a DM, what do you think would best fit your (developing) style?  Give me a little more background on the game, and how you want to run it.  As well, a little info on the specific problems you see with the players.  Then we can offer a little advice on how you can address their problems while devising a solution you are happy with.




For that, you'll have to wait for ChaosEvoker to come back. It's his group, I just want to be a player in it. I haven't publicized it, but I'm currently without any group at all.

So I'll let him cover that question tomorrow. Thanks for your help!


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 26, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I understand that you'd like to use one thread as sort of a catch-all for rules, advice and DM creations; which have you found you've concentrated on at the WotC boards? That'll decide what forum the thread settles in.



Well, mostly the DM Foundation was for advice (the Artifact Corner was only for homebrew stuff). We rarely have rules questions, but we often get questions about judgement calls and such.




			
				LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Oh wait. I think Mordmorgan already said most of what I posted. Sorry.



That's ok. Most of what I say bears repeating (and in some cases, translating)


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## Dyne (Dec 26, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> For reference, posting problems should be asked in the Meta forum (way down at the bottom.) That's the forum to check if you have any technical problems or want to know what's really going on around here.




Ahh, thank you. I'll be sure to check it out (as well as probably post a few things myself).


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## Dyne (Dec 26, 2004)

LilMissKittyn, for Players that cannot always be there, I always either play as the character myself or let another Player control him. No one in our group seems to mind letting another person control their character so that he/she can keep up.

In your position, I would probably run the character myself. My Players trust that I won't do anything stupid that will put the character at risk, and I try to stay true to the character if the need arises for me to roleplay him. Of course, my group's approach to the game is rather simple, and they don't need much explanation of anything to have a good time. And their characters are rather bland, now that I think about it. That's why I usually start them off at LV 1, so that they can actually develop their characters.

If I make little sense, I apologize. I'm rather tired at the moment, and it seems that I'm talking in circles.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 26, 2004)

*Ravenloft Adventure Feedback (super long)*

Alright members, I've gotten most of my upcoming Ravenloft adventure hammered out, so I'm gonna run it by y'all. Suggestions and comments welcome.

First off, the Players: (both 1st level) Human Warlock and Human Ranger

Now for the basic plot:

The warlock is sent to the ranger's village to purchase a few rare herbs from the local herbalist (some of which aren't in stock and will take a few days to find). The ranger's father, a woodsman and good friend of the herbalist, has asked his daughter to accompany the warlock while he's in town.

When he first enters the town, the warlock is greeted by a beautiful young gypsy girl (Vistani, for those of you who know the setting). She seems quite taken with the warlock's exotic looks (he's got a 16 in Cha) and begins to flirt with him a little. (To help this make sense for you, the warlock has a relationship with another vistani girl, Leyla, from the tribe near the village. The girl who greets him was by Leyla to bring him to thier camp).

The PCs do whatever they want in town for the day. Leyla (who is an EXTREMELY jealous woman, and commands unparalleled proficiency with curses) finds out about the girl's advances on the warlock and promptly curses her with lycanthropy (a representation of her animal lusts and carelessly impulsive behavior).

The girl is transformed the next night (which just happens to be a full moon) into a werewolf (a natural lycanthrope, but unable to assume her human form). The new werewolf begins hunting villagers on her first night, killing only 2 woodsmen who ventured too close to her lair (a small cave she found in the surrounding forest). She develops a taste for violence and blood after these kills and proceedes to kill woodsmen (only one or two) every evening.

The ranger's father, a woodsman, expresses his concern to his daughter, and asks her to accompany him to look for the missing woodsmen. (At this point, no foul play is suspected. The men are simply "missing"). The ranger will no doubt ask her new friend to come with her (since he seems to be the adventurous sort and might be able to find some of his herbs while tagging along).

The day's search reveals very little, except a few runes carved into some of the trees. (The warlock, with his knowledge of the gypsies will [correctly] believe them to be gypsy markers, probably [and incorrectly] for caravan trails). Other than that, they find nothing.

The next morning, however, one of the woodsmen is found: draped over the small roof of the town well, skinnless, and bearing the rune the PCs found carved into his chest. The ranger's father will insist on going back out to look for the other missing men (he's unwilling to let them suffer the same fate). The PCs will (probably) accompany him to help insure his safety.

At this point, I anticipate the PCs doing one of two things (both will probably get done eventually):

1. They'll go to the gypsies and ask them what the runes mean. The gypsies will claim that they don't use that rune, but the Warlock's lover (Leyla) will tell them that it's their symbol for abomination.
-If the PCs do this, the gypsies will know that the deaths are caused by one of thier own, and will send out hunting parties to discover and kill the culprit. (These hunts will be done descretely so as not to cause a public outcry against the gypsies [who get blamed for a lot anyway]). These hunts will come into play later, just before the final confrontation.

2. They'll go back to the area where they first found the runes. If they search the area, they'll find signs of a struggle (probably two nights before), and a small piece of scalp on one of the trees. (This is going to lead into a side adventure, which I'll detail if you want). While they're searching, they'll hear a woman's scream. When they go to investigate, they find the town's leatherworker (whom they'll meet earlier while walking around town) being attacked by a pack of wolves. The wolves can be scarred off, but they fight more tenaciously than they normally would. After the attack, the leatherworker says she saw a large figure watching her from a nearby hill.
-Searching the hill area, the PCs won't find anything too out of the ordinary, except a small cave (which appears to be the wolve's lair).

I can't exactly figure out how I want the PCs to come to the final confrontation.

They will have to fight the werewolf a few times, and after they drive it off a few times, the werewolf will begin attempting to draw them out by attacking townsfolk in daylight.

Anyhow, if you've survived the long read, I'd appreciate any comments. Please ask for more details if you need them.


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## Dyne (Dec 26, 2004)

I'm a little surprised at such a drastic reaction by Leyla, but it's certainly possible for someone to be THAT jealous. I'm still reading it, bu nice work so far. Keep it up.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 26, 2004)

Dyne said:
			
		

> I'm a little surprised at such a drastic reaction by Leyla, but it's certainly possible for someone to be THAT jealous. I'm still reading it, bu nice work so far. Keep it up.



The player wanted her to be kinda a shrew, so I figured it wouldn't be too far off. I'm sculpting her to be the BBEG at some point much later on, and I figured this might be a nice point to get that started. I'm not quite sure if the PCs will find out about her involvement, but I am sure that she'll want to witness the werewolf's death.

Since it's a horror game, I was thinking about having the werewolf only be seen in animal form until the final encounter when it finnally shifts into hybrid form. I dunno though. I think the PCs may not figure out that it's a werewolf and go in for the kill without silver weapons. They'll only be 1st or maybe 2nd level for the confrontation (but the werewolf won't be at full HP since I'm going to have the gypsy hunters find it [and get slaughtered] just before the PCs arrive).


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## Nightcloak (Dec 26, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad: Here’s my 2 cents

Play up the girl being young and innocent. Unquestioning eyes. Hero worship. That kind of thing.  

The cursed girl was originally smitten with the PC, so it’s not a stretch for her to still seek him out, even if she doesn’t know or understand why in her cursed form – she’s just as confused as the PCs. In a first encounter she is in wolf form and the PCs only learn that their weapons have a minimal effect, giving a standard encounter that wonderful moment when the PCs realize that the supernatural is afoot. If you need to save them from the encounter, the hunting party can show up. Now they can prepare for a tougher encounter next time and get properly equipted. 

During a second encounter with the wolf, another stray animal can show up (after a few rounds) and also attack the party, say a bear. The bear attacks the warlock. The wolf suddenly stops its assault and attacks the bear, driving it off then fleeing from wounds from the bear. They should realize that the wolf was protecting them from the bear. But why? And will they figure it out after the poor girl is dead that she was protecting the Warlock? You got to love a Ravenloft mystery. 

For a final encounter, the true identity of the wolf should be hid until after the characters finish it. That way the PCs won’t realize they killed that sweet little innocent girl until it’s to late. Bonus angst points if the warlock delivers the final blow.

Finally: Lelya. To fit Ravenloft, she needs to be a victim also. The dark powers notice the potential in her from her jealous curse and start to make her dark offerings. Corrupting her into what will be an eventual BBEG. It should be a slow and tragic downfall of corruption with the final battle someday being not an execution but a fight of bitter justice and tragic necessity. A minor vice that consumes her and turns her into a monster.

Last note:
This adventure is not linear, but run by encounters. Beware railroading the PCs to the final encounter! I would work out a rough sketch of several paths the PCs could be on by half way through the adventure so you can adjust the adventure to fit their current path. That way the environment is reacting to them and their decisions. No one likes to feel railroaded. Further, the horror and tragedy will improve greatly if the players think they have control and they could have done something different.  

Good luck! Sound like a fun adventure  
Let us know how it goes.


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## beldar1215 (Dec 26, 2004)

Sign me up as well. 

Beldar


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## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 26, 2004)

Dyne said:
			
		

> I'm a little surprised at such a drastic reaction by Leyla, but it's certainly possible for someone to be THAT jealous.




Sometime, in an off topic thread, remind me to tell you about a certain young woman I dated in college.  Oy.


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## Nightcloak (Dec 26, 2004)

Oh...

You can sign me up as well since I'm already dishing out ideas


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 26, 2004)

I liked the 1st part of what you said, and I'm going to see if I can add some nice horror to that to make it work.



			
				Nightcloak said:
			
		

> For a final encounter, the true identity of the wolf should be hid until after the characters finish it. That way the PCs won’t realize they killed that sweet little innocent girl until it’s to late. Bonus angst points if the warlock delivers the final blow.



I was planning on doing this, but I'm still trying to find a way for Leyla to witness it (and for the PCs to know she saw it). A Cut Scene could always work, but I've never done one, and I don't know how the PCs would respond.



> Finally: Lelya. To fit Ravenloft, she needs to be a victim also. The dark powers notice the potential in her from her jealous curse and start to make her dark offerings. Corrupting her into what will be an eventual BBEG. It should be a slow and tragic downfall of corruption with the final battle someday being not an execution but a fight of bitter justice and tragic necessity. A minor vice that consumes her and turns her into a monster.



Definitely. I'm going to drag it out nice and slow. The Warlock should still have strong feelings of love for her when he runs a knife through her black heart in the final encounter.



> Last note:
> This adventure is not linear, but run by encounters. Beware railroading the PCs to the final encounter! I would work out a rough sketch of several paths the PCs could be on by half way through the adventure so you can adjust the adventure to fit their current path. That way the environment is reacting to them and their decisions. No one likes to feel railroaded. Further, the horror and tragedy will improve greatly if the players think they have control and they could have done something different.



 I'm not too worried about railroading. I've played with these two for the better part of 2 years and known them personally for longer. I can usually determine what they'll do in the adventure accurately, and I'm clever enough not to let them know their choices are limited. Thanks for the concern though   .


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## Nightcloak (Dec 27, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> I was planning on doing this, but I'm still trying to find a way for Leyla to witness it (and for the PCs to know she saw it). A Cut Scene could always work, but I've never done one, and I don't know how the PCs would respond.




Cut scenes really depend on your group. If they're into roleplaying and stories in the game, then it should work. It might red flag her to early though ("Why did the DM highlight her?"). I might try something more organic like having her at the final scene. Maybe the werewolf was stalking her. I'd love to here how you work it in.




> Definitely. I'm going to drag it out nice and slow. The Warlock should still have strong feelings of love for her when he runs a knife through her black heart in the final encounter.




   I like the way you think. You just made me want to run a Ravenloft game  




> I'm not too worried about railroading. I've played with these two for the better part of 2 years and known them personally for longer. I can usually determine what they'll do in the adventure accurately, and I'm clever enough not to let them know their choices are limited. Thanks for the concern though




Cool. 
An experienced group you've known a long time. The best tool a DM could have.

Sound great! Can't wait to hear the rest


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> Cut scenes really depend on your group. If they're into roleplaying and stories in the game, then it should work. It might red flag her to early though ("Why did the DM highlight her?"). I might try something more organic like having her at the final scene. Maybe the werewolf was stalking her. I'd love to here how you work it in.



 I was thinking of something like: "Cut Scene: Leyla sits in her small vardo, huddled close to her tarroka cards. She flips over three cards, the moon...[DM flips over the three cards] the beast, and finally Death. She smiles slightly and mumbles something barely audible in her native tongue: 'May the gods of darkness have mercy on your soul, acursed sister'."

I don't think this would give away too much, but it would give the PCs the sense that Leyla is darker than she seems.





> I like the way you think. You just made me want to run a Ravenloft game



I'd be happy to help with that one   





> Cool.
> An experienced group you've known a long time. The best tool a DM could have.



Indeed. Unfortunately, we only get to play twice a year because the Warlock's player lives two states away (about an 8 hour drive). It's definitely worth the trip though. I'm hoping that he'll be able to move down here eventually (once the money issue is taken care of).


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 27, 2004)

Soudns good Mordmorgan, great ideas coming from all sides. I have ot admit that's a creative story line you've got there. how long did it take for you to think up that one?

oh and btw just for your knowledge, I'm jumping sides of the screen and letting someone else in our group have the omnipotency for a while. But I'll still be here jsut as strong, giving advise, and keeping things going. I may even be able to bring you some issues from the PC perspective...who knows? I might encourage our DM to come here if he feels I would be above metagaming...(though I hate ruining surprises for myself)

Also greet our new members!
beldar1215
Nightcloak


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Soudns good Mordmorgan, great ideas coming from all sides. I have ot admit that's a creative story line you've got there. how long did it take for you to think up that one?



 The storyline is still being worked on, but what I've got so far took a total of about 3 hours (That cut scene was impromptu, though).

I find that it really helps to watch movies, or at the very least listen to thier soundtracks, while I write. I find that 13th Warrior, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Mary Shelley's Frankenstien, The Last Samurai, Dark City, and any movie with Hannibal in it work best. I purposely avoid the LOTR movies because they don't help my creativity any (for some reason).



			
				ChaosEvoker}oh and btw just for your knowledge said:
			
		

> I could never do that. I get too board as a PC. I need to scheme constantly or my head starts to hurt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

I'm trying to figure out the perfect class for Leyla. I found a (5 level) PrC in the Ravenloft book Champions of Darkness called Master of Curses. This definitely fits with how I see her (all except the 5th level ability which allows her to take a curse of another upon herself).

One of the PrC's requirements includes having been previously cursed, or having cursed someone and later regretted it. I was pondering that first part, and I thought this might be a good twist: As a child she was unusually cruel to a young man who was quite taken with her. The man could not take her rejection, and killed himself that night. His mother cursed Leyla with a burning and desperate passion for a man with whom her love would never fully blossom or be accepted by her tribe.

This curse may be part of the reason she's so possessive of the warlock, and the source of cursing power. It'd definitely be part of her undoing. What if the curse is broken when the Warlock truely does come to love her? Maybe she finds that she no longer has any feelings for him, but pretends to, just to destroy him. (I see her as very arrogant, and I think she'd feel low and dirty for having been intimate with a giorgio [non-gypsy]. It might be a strong enough feeling for her to destroy him in an attempt to restore her "honor")

Anyhow, I'm thinking of making her a cleric (with no god) to qualify for the PrC. I'd like to give her the Knowledge domain (because she's one of her tribe's great seers), and she gets the Curse domain upon taking the 1st level of the PrC. Does anyone have any suggestions as to another good domain to take?

EDIT: This is what I'm thinking of so far:

PHB: Trickery
PGtF: Fate -or- Time

Of these, I think Fate might work best, but Trickery is very tempting.


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## Dyne (Dec 27, 2004)

I'm not very familiar with the Ravenloft Setting, so I don't know what the requirements would be. But, Cleric sounds very fitting for her.

You might give her the Evil domain, depending on how evil you want her to be. And I think there's a Darkness domain in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

EDIT: You might be able to use that 5th level ability. For example:

Leyla was cursed with a burning passion for the Warlock, and she feels very possessive about him until the time that the curse is broken. During that time, she might actually be nice toward the Warlock, and possibly get him to like her. When the curse is broken, she no longer has feelings for him. The Warlock is kinda disappointed at such a drastic change of heart. Leyla become dark, and the Warlock distances himself from her. The Warlock may try to foil Leyla from time to time, and her foil him. Eventually, the come to really dislike one another.

Later, however, Leyla comes to admire the Warlock for his amazing abilities. Eventually, a fatal curse is bestowed on Warlock. Seeing him in such pain, Leyla pities him. She comes to realize how dark she has become, and takes the curse upon herself, dying from the curse and leaving the Warlock with a sense of loss for the conflict between the two of them, and that she destroyed herself for his sake when she had no reason to do so. Such might make the Warlock feel guilty.

Of course, I'm making pretty big assumptions about the Warlock. I have no idea what the Player is like, or how he would play the Warlock, so you would have to seriously adjust my ideas if you wanted to use them in the campaign. Just a thought, thouh.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

Dyne said:
			
		

> I'm not very familiar with the Ravenloft Setting



All you need to know about Ravenloft is that it's a horror setting. It's a lot like the worlds created/described by Poe, Mary Shelley, Bram Stoker, Lovecraft, et al. We're specifically playing in an area that resembles the standard D&D game in regards to Technology, but magic is much more sinister and occult. Common people fear the night, and would not venture outside after dark to save thier own children from hungry wolves. It's a very dark setting, not unlike the World of Darkness (from White Wolf).



> You might give her the Evil domain, depending on how evil you want her to be. And I think there's a Darkness domain in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.



I was thinking of doing that, but I don't see her casting many spells, even evil ones. I kinda see taking the Evil Domain as a cleric's devotion to Evil itself, and I think she's to selfish to worship anything but herself. Darkness might be a good fit, so I'll have to take another look at that.

I thought I saw a Greed Domain somewhere (maybe the Draconomicon), but I can't find it now  :\ . I'm trying to write up her sheet now, and I think I've ruled out Trickery. It fits really well with her, but I don't think it's a perfect fit yet. I don't think she'd actually use any of the spells on the Domain list, so I think it's kinda a waste.

EDIT: I think I've settled on Rogue 1/Cleric 6/Master of Curses 1. I wish I could give her a few more rogue levels (instead of Cleric levels), but the Will save req. for the MoC is +5, so no luck.


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## Nightcloak (Dec 27, 2004)

She could start out with the trickery domain but later it changes to darkness or evil as she becomes corrupt. By the time she becomes the BBEG later you may have a use for those evil spells, but not now while she is with the warlock. 

If I may, what sources do you permit for your campaign? Don't wanna offer rule machanics you aren't playing with.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> She could start out with the trickery domain but later it changes to darkness or evil as she becomes corrupt. By the time she becomes the BBEG later you may have a use for those evil spells, but not now while she is with the warlock.



I'm not sure I like the idea of changin domains. I think the PCs need to have some idea of what she's capable of (and I need to be able to keep her abilities straight in my own head) to effectively combat her later. I want them to feel like they're fighting the young vistani girl they knew when they started thier careers. (I think it'd be cool for her to appear as her 15-year-old self in the final battle, no matter how old she is).



> If I may, what sources do you permit for your campaign? Don't wanna offer rule machanics you aren't playing with.



For the PCs I allow any Ravenloft material, and official WotC stuff on a Case-by-Case basis. For the villains, anything goes. I own most of the Ravenloft and WotC stuff, but little 3rd party stuff.


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## Nightcloak (Dec 27, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I like the idea of changin domains. I think the PCs need to have some idea of what she's capable of (and I need to be able to keep her abilities straight in my own head) to effectively combat her later.




Got ya. Just throwing curve balls to get the creative juices flowing. Would the retribution domain fit her well with her vengeful side?




> I want them to feel like they're fighting the young vistani girl they knew when they started thier careers. (I think it'd be cool for her to appear as her 15-year-old self in the final battle, no matter how old she is).




That will be creepy. Will she stay 15 throughout the story arc or is she showing up for the final battle that way?




> For the PCs I allow any Ravenloft material, and official WotC stuff on a Case-by-Case basis. For the villains, anything goes. I own most of the Ravenloft and WotC stuff, but little 3rd party stuff.




Crude. I'm the opposite these days. Lots of third party fun on the shelf lately but not as much WotC material and no Ravenloft 3E material (tons of 2E Ravenloft though – those books are great). 

It seems cleric is your best bet. I’m not sure the sorcerer or wizard has the right “feel” based on your description of Leyla.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> Got ya. Just throwing curve balls to get the creative juices flowing. Would the retribution domain fit her well with her vengeful side?



I'm thinking of giving her one of the feats in Champions of Darkness which allows her to take another domain. I think Retribution would be good for her later on, but I don't think she's truely going to come into that side of her personality until later.



> That will be creepy. Will she stay 15 throughout the story arc or is she showing up for the final battle that way?



Well, she's a member of the Manusa tasque, specifically Zarovan, so technically, I could actually have her 15 year old self face the PCs in the finnale, but I think I'm just going to use illusions or something to get her there.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Dec 27, 2004)

I'd like to join. I'm a pretty new DM, and have never really gotten a chance to play. "Credentials:" A straight-PHB homebrew campaign over one winter and a bit of summer; 1st to 10th level, 4 PCs and my DMPC (I kept him quiet to let the others shine). A 1st to 8th level Iron Kingdoms campaign, sped up near the end, with some of Monte Cook's Chaositech. A few levels in Eberron. Multiple 1-2 level dead ends in AU. A AU-rules homebrew from 1st-4th level that's stalled right now.

I'm still not a very good DM; I tend to lose interest and have trouble keeping games going. I really hope to get a chance to play sometime soon.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> I'm still not a very good DM; I tend to lose interest and have trouble keeping games going. I really hope to get a chance to play sometime soon.



That doesn't make you a bad DM. I have the hardest time keeping games going, and I lose interest fairly quickly too. Course, that's usually because I think of something that'd be soooo much better, and then I want to do that.

The best advice I have for that is to keep looking for a campaign setting/game/whatever that will hold your interests. For me, that's Ravenloft. I DM Forgotten Realms every once in a while, and I've thought about doing Eberron for a while, but Ravenloft is the only setting that really captures my interests for any period of time.


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## Nightcloak (Dec 27, 2004)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> A AU-rules homebrew from 1st-4th level that's stalled right now.




Hey there! I'm building a AU heavy homebrew right now. I love those books and can't wait to use them in a couple of months.

Here's to hoping you can get a group rolling again soon! 
Be persistant. It'll pay off


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 27, 2004)

Dyne said:
			
		

> LilMissKittyn, for Players that cannot always be there, I always either play as the character myself or let another Player control him. No one in our group seems to mind letting another person control their character so that he/she can keep up.
> 
> If I make little sense, I apologize. I'm rather tired at the moment, and it seems that I'm talking in circles.




Well, since CE is playing, I'll let him take my character. Though I'm one of those people that's really picky about how they're played, so it'll be fun to see how that works. ^_^' But this actually might be a good idea, and would solve the problem. If not, apparently there's a new group I can get into, so I'll let you know if either option pulls through. Thanks to everyone for their help.

As far as talking in circles, I do it all the time.   Don't worry.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 27, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> I was planning on doing this, but I'm still trying to find a way for Leyla to witness it (and for the PCs to know she saw it). A Cut Scene could always work, but I've never done one, and I don't know how the PCs would respond.




Wait. What's a cut scene?
And Nightcloak and Mordmorgan, you're my new heros. ^_^


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Wait. What's a cut scene?
> And Nightcloak and Mordmorgan, you're my new heros. ^_^



Cut scenes are just like in movies where the audience gets a look at what the villain (or some other group or person) is doing without the heroes having any idea of what happened.

In roleplaying, as in movies, it can build up an attatchment to the villain (who is rarely ever seen). You can do a lot more with it than that, but that's usually what it's used for.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 27, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> In roleplaying, as in movies, it can build up an attatchment to the villain (who is rarely ever seen). You can do a lot more with it than that, but that's usually what it's used for.




Wait, I don't get this last part. Attachment to the villian? Do more with it than that?
Please elaborate. I'm a bit slow in catching on tonight.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Wait, I don't get this last part. Attachment to the villian? Do more with it than that?
> Please elaborate. I'm a bit slow in catching on tonight.



It's alright. I don't think I'm explaining things well. Basically, by showing the Players (not thier characters) the villain executing parts of his plans or torturing innocents.

PM me on AIM and I'll try to explain it a little better.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 27, 2004)

Alright, as soon as I'm on a computer where I'm allowed to use AIM (in seven days or so). Maybe I'll understand it when I'm not so sleep deprived, so right now I'm going to go work on that.
Over and out! 
(Btw, can we get an updated members list? I've lost track of everyone).


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> (Btw, can we get an updated members list? I've lost track of everyone).



I'm gonna leave that to CE or Xen (when he shows up). I'm horrible at keeping track of names.


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## Piratecat (Dec 27, 2004)

I've used cut scenes fairly effectively. There's a few ways of doing it. The traditional is the "you can't influence the scene at all, only watch" method; I use this for prophetic visions, but don't like it if the players will feel railroaded.

A more interesting method is to give the players temporary PCs who are the henchmen of the big bad guy. They can then watch the fun first-hand, and even take part in it if he does the old villian trick of killing a henchman or two just for fun. Then end with "but here is how we're going to destroy those sniveling cowards!" and as the bad guy begins to explain his master plan, cut back to the regular PCs.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> A more interesting method is to give the players temporary PCs who are the henchmen of the big bad guy. They can then watch the fun first-hand, and even take part in it if he does the old villian trick of killing a henchman or two just for fun. Then end with "but here is how we're going to destroy those sniveling cowards!" and as the bad guy begins to explain his master plan, cut back to the regular PCs.



I really like this idea, but I'm not sure if my PCs are ready for scenes that complex. Something to work towards!


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## Acid_crash (Dec 27, 2004)

I think in the cutscene with Leyla I wouldn't even describe the girl as Leyla specifically... just go along with it like, "and the scene cuts to this youngish girl ... (physical description and how she's sitting) ... in her hands is a tarroka deck, and one by one three cards are flipped face up.  First (card), then (card 2), and finally Death.  She laughs with a sinister intent, and says, (the part about the curse)."  end scene.

I wouldn't even say it's Leyla, so when they do discover it's her, I think it will be even more surprising.  Especially if she has like a common skin color or a common hair color and you mention the hair color but pretend the camera is looking over her shoulders, so her face is hidden.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

I think I'd prefer that they know it's her and just keep her comment ambiguous. The warlock knows she's a little dark, and knows that she likes to watch him with scrying devices (since they can't always be together).

The main reason I really need them to know it's her is because we only play every 6 months, and that's a long time to remember anything about a game. I'll be lucky if they even remember it was Leyla in the cut scene, let alone what she said.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 27, 2004)

I am sorry to say that I forgot one of the most helpful movies to watch when creating horror games: The Ninth Gate (based on the book El Club Dumas).

While I'm thinking about it, what sources do you all use for inspiration?


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 27, 2004)

Hmm I'd say that I find Fantay books and movies good sources of inspiration. Tolkein and goodkind are my heroes!!! I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!


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## siege72 (Dec 27, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> MEMBERS LIST
> 
> Anyone who wants to join may, just post your request!



I'd like to join, if it's not too late.   

I've been DMing since Second Edition was released, and right now I'm running three different campaigns. (They're multiplying on me like rabbits, it seems!)


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 28, 2004)

It's never too late to join. Welcome to the DMF. ^_^


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## Lady Firehawk (Dec 28, 2004)

Hello! Still haven't done any DMing; work schedule's being a pain in the can. Blarrrgh. And I can't seem to peel my buddies away from World of Warcraft long enough to play any D&D... grrrrrr.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 28, 2004)

Uh-oh. ChaosEvoker just got World of Warcraft for Xmas. We better steal it from him before he gets hooked   .

BTW, I'm floored to see that another one of our long-lost members found thier way here! Horray!


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## Nightcloak (Dec 28, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> A more interesting method is to give the players temporary PCs who are the henchmen of the big bad guy. They can then watch the fun first-hand, and even take part in it if he does the old villian trick of killing a henchman or two just for fun. Then end with "but here is how we're going to destroy those sniveling cowards!" and as the bad guy begins to explain his master plan, cut back to the regular PCs.





Now that just rocks!

Consider that one yoinked


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 28, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> Uh-oh. ChaosEvoker just got World of Warcraft for Xmas. We better steal it from him before he gets hooked   .
> 
> BTW, I'm floored to see that another one of our long-lost members found thier way here! Horray!




Oh, he's already hooked. I called him yesterday and he was playing it the entire time.   

Welcome back, Lady Firehawk. Always good to see new people. Er....or old people that we haven't seen in a while. ^_^;
(I'm going to stop talking while I still have a face to save.)


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## Nightcloak (Dec 28, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> While I'm thinking about it, what sources do you all use for inspiration?




Music does the trick for me. Songs have the potential to become soundtracks in my mind were I see a "snap-shot" of an adventure as if it was a movie trailer.

EX: I was listening to Metal Gods by Judas Priest the other day and suddenly envisioned warforged marching out of the Mournlands _en mass_, shattering the misguided convention of calling the previous war "The Last War".

To bad I don’t run an Eberron campaign   


Oh well. Back on topic. Music works for me. All kinds.


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## Acid_crash (Dec 28, 2004)

Music works for me as well, as does certain movies and novels.  If I am working on a fantasy game, then fantasy related materials work best, and the same for sci-fi.  I read all the time so I get a lot of ideas.

Read books often, great for stealing from.


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## Lady Firehawk (Dec 28, 2004)

Hmmmm... I'm going to have to post my race dealiebob (the sk'kirrim) on these forums... I ran them through Soldarin's ECL calculator and they came out pretty well balanced...

As for music... LOTR music is uber-awesome, and for some reason I like System of a Down and Rob Zombie a lot, too... especially for battle scenes.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 28, 2004)

@ LilMissKittyn
Whoa whoa whoa. Leave the welcoming of members to me there please. (It's one of my few joys in life. That, D&D, WoW, and you sweetheart. Please don't take it from me.   )

New Member!
siege72

Welcome to the DMF!

Old Member who has returned
Lady Firehawk

Welcome back! Good to see you made it!

@The current topic
As far as music goes, I find Holst's _The Planets_ (Especially Mars, God of War) to be a good musical inspiration. That and the soundtracks of Baldur's Gate, LOTR, and Star Wars (really only the Imperial MarcH). Oh and I musn't forget Verdi's _Requiem_ that's a relaly good one....alright I'm done....for now O_O.

EVOKER OUT


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## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 28, 2004)

I get a lot of inspiration from classic and epic heavy metal (I'm old school metal and dang proud of it).  Manowar, Iron Maiden, Dio, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Virgin Steele and others inspire me.  Among modern epic metal, I'm a big fan of Rhapsody, Iced Earth, Falconer, Lacuna Coil, Nightwish, and Sonata Arctica, among many others.


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 28, 2004)

In terms of inspiration, movies provide a nice cue. Not only to simulate the brain on characters, but more often, the backgrounds, scenery and 'feel'.

Over the weekend for example, I watched the following:

13th Warrior
Conan the Barbarian
King Authrur director's cut
Brotherhood of the Wolf


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 28, 2004)

I have to agree with that one. Movies, music, and books are all great sources of campaign inspiration.

[SHAMELESS PLUG]Btw if anyone hasn't seen the link in my sig labeled "A Must See For All D&D Players!" then you are missing out. If i had any control over you actions, I would force you to watch it. As it stands I don't have that power, but I would definately appreciate it if you guys would see that. It really is a must see.[/SHAMELESS PLUG]


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 28, 2004)

There are things that go *bump* in the night, Agent Myers. We're the ones who *bump* back.
         -Hellboy


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## Nilhgualcm Leahcim (Dec 29, 2004)

I would like to join your merry band, if at all possible. Thanks! I DM for my group of 7 players, and have held the position these past 4 years. I have DMd for 15 years. Am eagerly looking for more information and inspiration.


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## IamTheTest (Dec 29, 2004)

My name is Zach and I'm an inexperienced DM.  I run a game with 4 PC's all of which have little to no experience so we're basically fumbling through the campaign together.  I look forward to learning under people that have been doing this for years.


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## BSF (Dec 29, 2004)

Inspiration?  Movies are great for ambiance and atmosphere.  Cinematics!  Working from inspiration like this, I have come up with cinematic scenes for climax fights.  Then I reverse engineer how that would come up and devise story arcs that suggest ways a BBEG would have that environment for the final showdown with PCs.  

Other cinematic situations are also inspired by movies.  Mostly in terms of evocative terrain descriptions.

Music wise, I listen to a lot of different stuff.  Most gaming nights I will play background music.  I rarely use something with lyrics though.  I am looking for atmosphere.  I have been known to burn CDs with a gaming mix for specific sessions.  I have also been known to pick out songs for the death of a PC.  Their eulogy music, if you will.  

I use music with lyrics to sometimes pull inspiration for stories in-game as well.  I vaguelly recall a thead some time ago with songs for inspiration for adventures.  I might have to do a search to see if I can dig that up again.  Dio and Iron Maiden have provide lyrical inspiration for adventures lately.  

Oddly enough, one of the most inspiring things for me is a live orchestra.  It doesn't matter what they are playing, my mind will dive into the music and it will go places that I didn't expect.  I have come out of orchestras with fully recharged creative batteries and weeks worth of inspiration for gaming.

Some museums are also useful in this regard.  Botanical gardens and aquariums rate highly as well.

Need a good outdoor scene?  Turn to nature calendars.  Find a great picture and then populate it with whatever encounter you are looking for.  One nice thing about calendars is that you can actually use the picture as a visual prop in the game if your verbal skills needs help that session.  (Let's face it, who doesn't sometimes have a session where you feel brain dead?)  Postcards are useful as well.  

If you can drive, and can afford the gas, take the family on a weekend afternoon drive.  Here in New Mexico, I can get out into the national forests in less than an hour.  I can head down south to Soccorro and hang out at the Bosque.  I can see desert, or mountains pretty easily.  I just don't have large lakes, or beaches to enjoy.  But it is usually a nice relaxing afternoon and I get to spend it with my family.  The fact that I get gaming ideas from it is a bonus.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 29, 2004)

New Members
Nilhgualcm Leahcim
IamTheTest

Welcome to the DMF!

Man, I wish I got to see live orchestra's more often...


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## Dyne (Dec 29, 2004)

As far as inspiration:
I really like The Lord of the Rings, especially The Hobbit. I tend to use lots of Goblins and Orcs in my campaigns, so it shows.  

But, I guess most of my "inspiration" either comes from a certain character I created, a certain part of the campaign setting, or just random thoughts. As far as character creation goes, I spend more time creating characters than I do actually using them. I have at least a dozen characters stacked up somewhere that I didn't get to use. But, that's only because my campaign ended before I hoped it would. Each one of my characters always has a purpose in the game, and I always have a use for them. Usually, my characters are inspired from LotR, Fantasy books, or just from looking through the rulebooks and seeing a certain class (or race) or concept that I find particularly interesting.

My campaigns _always_ center around the characters. As they say, it's not the sword, it's the one who wields it. A character could have the most mundane equipment and abilities but still be one of the most awesome characters ever, just from the way he's played. The equipment and abilities are always used to complement the character.

(Darn rambling....) Well, that's one of the things I like most about DMing: creating different characters to use in the campaign. The characters usually inspire plots by themselves.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 29, 2004)

Dyne said:
			
		

> (Darn rambling....)



People are lucky I only have one mouth to speak out of or my rambling would quickly get out of hand   

I have a big box at my parents' house filled with old character sheets from 2e. Every once in a while, I'll rummage through it and pull out someone's old PC to use as an NPC in my new game.

Oh, and CE, see below:
[sblock]*bump* is soooo lame   . Next time try this: "There are things that go **bump** in the night, Agent Myers. We're the ones who **bump** back." Ooh, 2 bumps for the price of one   [/sblock]


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## siege72 (Dec 29, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> While I'm thinking about it, what sources do you all use for inspiration?



Since I make give players the "option" to create extensive character backgrounds, I usually mine those for ideas. After one or two "generic" adventures to get the ball rolling and give the characters enough reason to stick together, I can start dangling plot hooks from the characters' motivations or pasts.

I drew inspiration from the song "Pink Frost" for one campaign... (although it's a _deity_ who's suffered the loss  )

PS: Thanks for the welcome everyone!!


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 29, 2004)

Yeah old 2E PC's coming back as NPC's bring back good and bad memories....


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## Y.O.Morales (Dec 29, 2004)

*My apologies and warm welcome*

Sorry that I couldn't follow up this thread ealier, as my computer went -10 hp since last Thursday (I'm posting from a friend's computer, yet I still havent enough time to read the entire thread).

It is not that I don't like you or that your thread offended me, but basically my first impression was that this foundation wasn't neccesary here. It is like Ankh said:



> Just seems to me like you don't really need a special thread or anything. ENWorld as a whole works well enough.



However, so far the Dungeon Master Foundation is proving to be useful to many people (just by the numbers of posts!), so welcome and thanks for expanding/making better these message boards. I'll continue posting whenever I can.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 29, 2004)

Thanks Y.O. Morales your comments are appreciated. This place is actually catching on and moving way faster than it did before I'm really impressed.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 29, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> This place is actually catching on and moving way faster than it did before I'm really impressed.



I do what I can


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## Blade of Desecration (Dec 29, 2004)

*Hey, Chaos Evoker, it's CofDS*

Hey, Chaos Evoker, it's CofDS.  I followed your link from the original foundation.  What'd I miss?


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 29, 2004)

Blade of Desecration said:
			
		

> Hey, Chaos Evoker, it's CofDS.  I followed your link from the original foundation.  What'd I miss?



The Dark Sun Returns! You've missed just a little bit. We've been talking about sources of inspiration for games, and helping me with my game a little.


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## Blade of Desecration (Dec 29, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> The Dark Sun Returns! You've missed just a little bit. We've been talking about sources of inspiration for games, and helping me with my game a little.



Yead, sweet.  I just got back from my week long visit to California (no real access to a computer), and saw what happened to the old foundation.  Oh well, at least we'll always have Paris. *begins drinking from a root beer bottle with soundtrack from _Casablanca_ playing in the backround*


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## Dyne (Dec 29, 2004)

Um, the thread is 10 pages long. I'd say he missed a bit.

Mordmorgan talked a little bit about his Ravenloft campaign and bounced some ideas about the BBEG off some of us.



			
				Blade of Desecration said:
			
		

> Oh well, at least we'll always have Paris. *begins drinking from a root beer bottle with soundtrack from Casablanca playing in the backround*




(Darn it, where's that certain smilie when I need it....)
Huh?

EDIT: @ChaosEvoker
[sblock]Are you still gonna be in the IFWG? We just got the go-ahead from the WizO's. We just have to finish all the rules before we can start up again.[/sblock]


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## Blade of Desecration (Dec 29, 2004)

Dyne said:
			
		

> Um, the thread is 10 pages long. I'd say he missed a bit.
> 
> Mordmorgan talked a little bit about his Ravenloft campaign and bounced some ideas about the BBEG off some of us.
> 
> ...



What, you've never seen the movie _Casablanca_?


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## Dyne (Dec 29, 2004)

Nope.


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## Blade of Desecration (Dec 29, 2004)

Dyne said:
			
		

> Nope.



See, it and you'll understand the quote.  Great movie too.  YOu have heard of it, right?


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## Dyne (Dec 29, 2004)

Of course I've heard of it. I've just never seen it.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 29, 2004)

CotDS!!!!!! Welcome back!

An Old Member Returns
Chosen of the Dark Sun
*Now known as:*
Blade of Desecration

Oh man, you wanna talk about catching up: I can hear Xen's voice already....*Xen: "JESUS CHRIST!!!"* *sigh*

Welcome back, good to see you! Alright here's the deal with our system. If we don't get some counsil nominations I'm gonna get with Mordmorgan and we'll start appointing cause we need this baby filled up...

There are some other ideas floating in my head...we'll see how they turn out. Once we get the counsil together I'll be discussing it with them...

@Dyne
[sblock]Yeah probably. I got rid of my Versemaster levels. Some of the stuff in that PrC was so unbalanced. Plus, it was incomplete. I want nothign to do with Silmarien's stuff. Did he ever get bumped as a GM?[/sblock]


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## Wereserpent (Dec 29, 2004)

Okays, I need help wording something.  How should I word a house rule that says that even if the PC rolls a high knowledge check on something, they still may not know everything about said subject.


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## Darkness (Dec 29, 2004)

Galeros said:
			
		

> Okays, I need help wording something. How should I word a house rule that says that even if the PC rolls a high knowledge check on something, they still may not know everything about said subject.



 You might want to decide _why_ they can't know everything. That should at least help get you started with the wording.


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## Buttercup (Dec 29, 2004)

Galeros said:
			
		

> Okays, I need help wording something. How should I word a house rule that says that even if the PC rolls a high knowledge check on something, they still may not know everything about said subject.



Two things.  

First, why do you need a house rule for this?  Just set the DC for certain bits of information so high that your player *can't* roll a successful check.  You're the DM--if you want some knowledge hidden, why is this even an issue?

Second, you would get more responses to questions of this sort if you just posted them in general discussion.  The majority of EN World members DM at least some of the time, and many are quite experienced.  But many of those same people have little interest in or patience with joining a "guild" or "faction" which consists of page after page of white noise.  Now, far be it from me to tell you what you can and can't do.  Have your club if you like.  I just thought it was worth pointing out that climbing into your backyard treehouse and hanging out a Members Only sign isn't the most effective way of getting the information you desire.


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## BSF (Dec 29, 2004)

Knowing everything/not knowing everything would seem to be a variable.  I am not quite sure what the best way to help you in this regard is.  As Darkness said, why can't the PC know everything with a sufficiently high Knowledge check?

But really, what problem are you trying to fix?  I use knowledge rolls relatively liberally in my games.  I rely on knowledge rolls to give me excuses to flesh out more of the world for the players as it becomes relevant to the PCs.  I also use them for stuff covered in the rules.  I have never had a player say that a knowledge roll was so high they should "know everything".  I have had knowledge rolls that were so high, at the right time, that I started winging new campaign material.  

Of course, I am pretty sure I have never seen a knowledge roll break into the 45+ range either.  Right now, the PCs in my game are 5-6 level average and a knowledge roll in the 30's is as high as they get.


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## BSF (Dec 29, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> I use music with lyrics to sometimes pull inspiration for stories in-game as well.  I vaguelly recall a thead some time ago with songs for inspiration for adventures.  I might have to do a search to see if I can dig that up again.  Dio and Iron Maiden have provide lyrical inspiration for adventures lately.




I searched for the old thread on what songs have led to adventure ideas.  Adventure Ideas from Songs  Whew, that one is 6 months dead.  I'm not sure I want to case a Raise Thread on that one.  But there it is for reference.


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## siege72 (Dec 29, 2004)

Galeros said:
			
		

> Okays, I need help wording something.  How should I word a house rule that says that even if the PC rolls a high knowledge check on something, they still may not know everything about said subject.



Heh... I feel your pain. In my high level game (RIP), the mage had a knowledge check modifier of +20 something.

I use a sliding DC scale, the larger the die roll, the more successful the check is _within reason_. At the bottom of the scale, there was no useful information (knowledge check of 10 or less). With reasonable successes (11-24), the character could information, but not how to use the information. Major successes (25+) gave the character information, and the _player_ a way to use it... within reason.

Within reason means that if it's something totally new or outside the character's experience, they're going to be able to identify it as being "out there", but not say much more about it.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 29, 2004)

Ok. Nominations.
How about BardStephenFox and Nightcloak? I know they're not originals but that shouldn't matter much, since we've been here a while, and they've certainly contributed a lot.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 29, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Ok. Nominations.
> How about BardStephenFox and Nightcloak? I know they're not originals but that shouldn't matter much, since we've been here a while, and they've certainly contributed a lot.



I'll second that.

Anyhow, regarding the Knowledge checks, I'd also like to know why you want to limit them. I don't think you particularly need a house rule to regulate how much info the PCs get. There's no topic that someone can know absolutely everything about anyway, no matter how high thier check is. If you really want to house-rule it, just tell the PCs that there's some stuff you just can't learn in books/without doing it, no matter what your die roll is.


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## Wereserpent (Dec 29, 2004)

siege72 said:
			
		

> Heh... I feel your pain. In my high level game (RIP), the mage had a knowledge check modifier of +20 something.
> 
> I use a sliding DC scale, the larger the die roll, the more successful the check is _within reason_. At the bottom of the scale, there was no useful information (knowledge check of 10 or less). With reasonable successes (11-24), the character could information, but not how to use the information. Major successes (25+) gave the character information, and the _player_ a way to use it... within reason.
> 
> Within reason means that if it's something totally new or outside the character's experience, they're going to be able to identify it as being "out there", but not say much more about it.




Well, what the Mage would roll a Knowledge check on would be a type of fungus that was newly created by the god of disease.  So, he would have NEVER heard of it before.  The fungus is a fine powdery pink substance, and it travels on the wind and turns who ever it touches into some mutated verion of what it once was.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 29, 2004)

Galeros said:
			
		

> Well, what the Mage would roll a Knowledge check on would be a type of fungus that was newly created by the god of disease.  So, he would have NEVER heard of it before.  The fungus is a fine powdery pink substance, and it travels on the wind and turns who ever it touches into some mutated verion of what it once was.



In this case, no knowledge check (no matter how high) would allow the mage to have any clue about the fungus.


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## Y.O.Morales (Dec 29, 2004)

I've been thinking for a while about the possibility of hosting the DMF in its own website (however, we must change the name to Game Master Foundation or otherwise we'll get a nice letter from WotC's lawyers). How that sounds?

If it's a viable option, I could help in setting up the website, but my aid will have to wait as I'm currently building my own personal website too.


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## BSF (Dec 29, 2004)

OK, a couple of things.  For those that have never seen it, I am linking Mark's DMing Advice thread.  Talk about a great resource for some of the more interesting DM threads on EN World, this one has a lot to read.  It is a thread that cross-links other threads.

Galeros, I wouldn't allow a Knowledge check to tell the PC everything about it.  But with time to study (be it personal observation, experience, or just studying reports of what the fungus can do), then the PC might be able to extrapolate some things.  Especially if coupled with the Heal skill!

Remember, the PC has devoted a portion of her development to being knowledgable.  This isn't a golden key to bypass challenges, but it is an aspect of the character that you should be including in the game.  Allow a sufficiently high Knowledge check to help with the situation and point toward possible causes or solutions.

Maybe the PC remember reading about a similar fungus back in the deep past?  Perhaps the PC is able to extrapolate that this fungus has never existed before and the only way it could exist is if it were recently created.  With a really good check, perhaps the PC extrapolates it further and guesses that some sort of divine guidance was granted.  Perhaps the check is good enough to provide a 3 or 4 different possibilities for origin and that gives the party a starting point.  

Or maybe the DC is so high that the PC still knows nothing aside from not recognizing the fungus.  

My point is to avoid being closed minded about it.  If the PC has devoted skill points into being good at something, allow them to be good at it.  Being good isn't an automatic solution, but the PC does need to derive some benefit from the skills.  Give the PC a bone to chew on, even if you don't want to give her the whole steak.

RE: DMF Council.  Wow, thanks for the compliment LilMissKitten.  I think I would want to hear more what's involved so I can be sure I could participate sufficiently before I would agree.


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## Wereserpent (Dec 29, 2004)

Okays, thanks for the help mister bard and Madmorgan the mad guy.


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## SuperFlyTNT (Dec 29, 2004)

My biggest problem has always been with how my PC's spend their time. IE: We did a lvl 8 one hit wonder campaign I had them robbing a bank and it was supposed to be really simple and take about ten minutes and then I was gonna send them to ravenloft. They spend two hours at least scouting, testing, and getting into trouble before they even robbed the bank.


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## BSF (Dec 30, 2004)

*laugh*  I have seen that many times.  Heck, I have been party to that behavior as a player.  If everyone was having fun, then don't worry about it too much.  

If afterward everyone was complaining about not getting anything done, then you need to find a way to pick up the action.  It will depend on your group.  If you need to pick up the action, then pre-empt the "prep time" by narrating most of it out of the way at the adventure introduction.


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## Dyne (Dec 30, 2004)

I've had Players who focussed their characters on sneaking around an enemy barracks and trying to steal out of their footlockers at one point in the campaign, even though none of them had very good skills at it. Our Fighter, for some reason, liked to pretend that he was a Rogue at times. [shudder]

@CE
[sblock]I agree on the PrC, as well as the rest of Sil's stuff. He never got bumped, though. I'm still trying, though, and it'd help if you were there for support.[/sblock]


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 30, 2004)

I dont' see how there is a house rule needed. Just say, your knowledge check failed (or even better give him false "knowledge") Your the DM if he doesn't knwo it, he doesn't. Period.

Alright I don't see a PM system here, sicne the whole counsil uses AIM, message me your votes on the two nominations.

@Dyne
[sblock]Alright I'll look into it. Racanath is ready to kill something anyway.[/sblock]

@Y.O.Morales
I owuld gladly change the name to GMF if we were to have our own website that would be AWESOME! My question then is: What would we use it for? Would we still post here?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 30, 2004)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Second, you would get more responses to questions of this sort if you just posted them in general discussion.  The majority of EN World members DM at least some of the time, and many are quite experienced.  But many of those same people have little interest in or patience with joining a "guild" or "faction" which consists of page after page of white noise.  Now, far be it from me to tell you what you can and can't do.  Have your club if you like.  I just thought it was worth pointing out that climbing into your backyard treehouse and hanging out a Members Only sign isn't the most effective way of getting the information you desire.




Ah ha! See, that's what I've been trying to say a couple of times. But as usual, Buttercup words it so much better than I do. It just seems to me that your not making full use of all that ENWorld has to offer with this one thread. You can get so many ideas from ENWorld as a whole, but it is very unlikely that the majority of posters will have much interest in a 'foundation'. And even then, if everyone is part of it, why not just call it ENWorld? 

And on topic, I think players just like to take their time planning carefully and taking their time. Even at the expense of surprise and possibly causing more trouble in the process.

((Oh, and CE: There is a PM system, but its only open to Community Supporters))


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## Nightcloak (Dec 30, 2004)

Galeros said:
			
		

> Okays, I need help wording something.  How should I word a house rule that says that even if the PC rolls a high knowledge check on something, they still may not know everything about said subject.





I would add one piece of advice to all the good advice given already. Michael Straczynski (creator of Babylon 5) use to speak at many conventions and field questions from fans of the show. He would always get a question like “How fast does a Star Fury fly?” [For those who did not watch the show, a star fury was a space fighter]. 

Anyways, he always gave a “stock” answer to the question: “It flies at the speed of plot”.

The moral of the story, the Star Fury would get someplace on time if the plot required it, and it would get their late if the plot required it. 

Now, by all means do not throttle the player. If he does well on roll, give him clues or point him in the right direction of getting to the answer faster. Let the player shine for taking the skill and using it, and if the player is smart and does research give him more hints or even a xp reward. But don’t give away the story. 

So, when does a player learn everything about said subject: “At the speed of plot”.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 30, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Ah ha! See, that's what I've been trying to say a couple of times. But as usual, Buttercup words it so much better than I do. It just seems to me that your not making full use of all that ENWorld has to offer with this one thread. You can get so many ideas from ENWorld as a whole, but it is very unlikely that the majority of posters will have much interest in a 'foundation'. And even then, if everyone is part of it, why not just call it ENWorld?
> 
> And on topic, I think players just like to take their time planning carefully and taking their time. Even at the expense of surprise and possibly causing more trouble in the process.
> 
> ((Oh, and CE: There is a PM system, but its only open to Community Supporters))



I'm getting tired of hearing this. We're all very well aware that ENWorld has more to offer. I personally don't care. I didn't care when we were on the WotC boards that they had more to offer. We like our Foundation, and we're gonna keep it (we're stubborn. So what?). I don't mean to be testy, but people have been dancing on my nerves today.

To Y.O.: I think it'd be great to have our own website, although it might make getting new members a little harder. Definitely let me know if I can be of any help.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Dec 30, 2004)

And I truly have no intention of abandoning other threads...   whether I joined as a "member" or not, I'd have subsribed to this thread, anyway.  I really enjoy everything ENW has to offer, and one of these days I'll be arrested for yoinking so much for my own use...it's bound to be criminal!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 30, 2004)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> And I truly have no intention of abandoning other threads...   whether I joined as a "member" or not, I'd have subsribed to this thread, anyway.  I really enjoy everything ENW has to offer, and one of these days I'll be arrested for yoinking so much for my own use...it's bound to be criminal!



 A good point. 

I've yoinked so very many awesome ideas from all over these boards in the past couple of years. It seems to me that any 'foundation' of DMs should be able to get their hands on every single little yoinkable(new word there) idea this place has. IMO, limiting yourself to just one thread like this is shooting yourself in the foot.

Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you guys out. This is a community for a reason.


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## Dyne (Dec 30, 2004)

This foundation is just like a mini EN World in a more personal setting. It's like a small home in a massive world. The world itself has a lot more to offer than the small home, but it's kinda nice to have that little home to retreat to.

Thanks for the concerns, but this is how we like it. It makes things easier to keep track of and it gives us a little place to gather with friendly acquaintances and bounce ideas around.


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## Nightcloak (Dec 30, 2004)

Just honest speculation here...

I don't think the creators of this thread are trying to limit themselves so much as they are trying to stay in touch with each other specifically. Instead of having a thread by subject they are having a thread by dialog. With the size of ENWorld and it's continued growth, it makes since that some people are going to gravitate together and want to have a more direct dialog instead of searching across many threads to have that dialog on a per subject basis. Kind of like the Hivemind in OT. 

I'm sure no one is limiting themselves by just sticking to this one thread, and they will be taking advantage of all that ENWorld has to offer (kick the tires and take it out for a spin). For a lot of us, it’s become our home on the web and I’m sure it will become theirs too!


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 30, 2004)

Oh yes, don't get me wrong, we are definately going to participate around ENWorld. I myself have posted at about 10 other threads. I like Dyne's description. Perhaps this is a place where people can come and say "I have this issue" where that issue may not be significant enough to merit its own thread. Or perhaps this is a place where one coudl say "Look at this cool ENWorld thread about this topic." Everyone could find a purpose here. Find your own, or decide it has none to you. It is up to the individual whether or not they join.

Or you coudl take this from a Starcraft perspective. (Yes in my other spare time I am a computer gamer, I am the uber-nerd/gamer/loser) We are the Zerg Overmind. ENWorld are the Zerg....somehow that works in my brain, but i can't explain it....maybe it's a bad example.

@Website
As far as difficulty in gaining new members with a Website, maybe, maybe not. If we keep posting here I don't see why. I have a little knowledge of HTML and some knowledge of Java, so I could help a little. (Once I get done with AP Prog I in a year I'll be alot better at it....ANYWAY) I'd like to see what we could do with it. DEFINATELY put the DMFCC there but what else? I see alot of potential here and I look forward to it. (Perhaps once I get enough programming trainning I can create my own programs....O_O. I've made my own dice roller, but it requires that you have certain pre-programmed classes, and...I digress) Anyway, I'd like to hear more aobut this website idea.


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## Nightcloak (Dec 30, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Ok. Nominations.
> How about BardStephenFox and Nightcloak? I know they're not originals but that shouldn't matter much, since we've been here a while, and they've certainly contributed a lot.




Nominations? Council?

Thank you for the complement. But what is the council and what does it do?


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 30, 2004)

Y.O.Morales said:
			
		

> I've been thinking for a while about the possibility of hosting the DMF in its own website (however, we must change the name to Game Master Foundation or otherwise we'll get a nice letter from WotC's lawyers). How that sounds?
> 
> If it's a viable option, I could help in setting up the website, but my aid will have to wait as I'm currently building my own personal website too.




That would be....awesome. I guess the only problem there would be funds (I'm not sure how much hosting a website costs, and who would pay for it. 

Also, we'd have to do some scouting for the DMF/GMF, making posts in ENWorld, WoTC, and any other gaming sites that our site is available (shameless plug, I know). I would gladly be responsible for this, if nobody else wants the job. But it also means that everyone already here will have to bring anyone they know IRL in (I'm going to start trying to get friends in). I could also help with basic system setup, since I'll be in Computer Programming next semester, but Xen and ChaosEvoker would be better for that job.

And then there's the question of admins, how complex the system is, what rules we allow, and so forth. That could be taken care of later.

In other words, I'd love to see it happen, and I'd love to be a part of it. Just let me know. 

(Oh yes. And as far as not posting anywhere else on ENWorld goes, I don't think you want me posting yet. Everyone here knows I'm a beginner, but it's different "outside," and I don't wish to make a fool of myself just yet. I hope you understand.)


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 30, 2004)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> Nominations? Council?
> 
> Thank you for the complement. But what is the council and what does it do?




Sorry, I guess we never quite explained that. The council (correct me if I'm wrong) is basically a group of experienced or wise DM's, usually 5 or 6, that can hold a position of authority and decision-making when applicable to help the rest of the group. Basically, it's just a position to acknowledge your experience and contributions to the group.

Does that make sense? I'm running a fever, so I'm not sure. I'd let ChaosEvoker fill you in, but I don't think you could drag him away from WoW.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 30, 2004)

Oh yes. One more thing and I'm done. Nightcloak, thank you. I think you explained it perfectly, about why we have the DMF. For a lot of us, it's a time-saver and a way to stick with friends and get fast results for our questions.
But I think we've thoroughly exhausted that subject. Why not move on to something else, say, council nominations?


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## exile (Dec 30, 2004)

*A site just for the DMF*

Hi. I'm Chad. I'm Brand new to the DMF and relatively new to posting on ENWorld (and only moderately active at that). Enough with the introductions. If you're giving serious thought to creating your own website for the DMF, you should give www.ghoulgamers.com a look. It's a lot like a mini-ENWorld, but originally set up just for the Louisville, KY area. You might find an interesting model for your website there...or even some decent conversation if you decide toparticipate on their boards. I certainly do...and I don't even live in Louisville anymore.
Chad


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## BSF (Dec 30, 2004)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> (Oh yes. And as far as not posting anywhere else on ENWorld goes, I don't think you want me posting yet. Everyone here knows I'm a beginner, but it's different "outside," and I don't wish to make a fool of myself just yet. I hope you understand.)




*laugh*  Of course we want you to post!  Post anywhere and everywhere you want to.  Jump into conversations that you find interesting.  Ask questions as a player or a DM.  Hit some of the non-gaming forums and have fun.  

We have 1.8 million posts. Over 100,000 threads.  EN World got that way by people posting regardless of whether they are new to the game or not.   You won't be flamed or subject to derisive behavior.  When people cross the lines, the Mods step in.  So don't worry about making a "fool" of yourself.  It's not possible.  Each and every one of us had to start playing the game at one point.  I wish I had online resources available when I started playing 24 years ago.  I would have caught on much quicker!  So feel free to post, really!


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## Darkness (Dec 30, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> You won't be flamed or subject to derisive behavior. When people cross the lines, the Mods step in.



 Yes, we will. 

Of course, while we find very much on our own, we can't be everywhere at once because:







			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> We have 1.8 million posts. Over 100,000 threads.



So it's important that people _tell_ us, with the 'report post' function or otherwise, when something happens.


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## BSF (Dec 30, 2004)

Well yeah.  I know I have used the report post feature.  I've also emailed you guys directly once or twice.  Each of us has to do our little part to keep things working smoothly.


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## Darkness (Dec 30, 2004)

Yeah, didn't mean to detract from what you were saying, mate. It's just that it helps pointing it out every now and then, especially when talking to posters who are new to this place.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 30, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> *laugh*  Of course we want you to post!  Post anywhere and everywhere you want to.  Jump into conversations that you find interesting.  Ask questions as a player or a DM.  Hit some of the non-gaming forums and have fun.
> 
> We have 1.8 million posts. Over 100,000 threads.  EN World got that way by people posting regardless of whether they are new to the game or not.   You won't be flamed or subject to derisive behavior.  When people cross the lines, the Mods step in.  So don't worry about making a "fool" of yourself.  It's not possible.  Each and every one of us had to start playing the game at one point.  I wish I had online resources available when I started playing 24 years ago.  I would have caught on much quicker!  So feel free to post, really!




Exactly! And not only that, but I bet that if you've got a question on something(no matter how 'stupid' you may think it is) at least one other person will also be wanting to ask it. Of course, it'd likely be much higher that just 'one', but I'm tired/sick. The real greatness of ENWorld is the community. I completely understand the want to have a nice safe little place where you know people, but if you don't jump out into ENWorld as a whole, you'll just become pointlessly insular.

As for reporting any flames and such...if you don't want to use e-mail, you can always just post a link in Meta to the thread to get some mod's attention. Hopefully, though, you won't have to do that all that much.


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## Darkness (Dec 30, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> As for reporting any flames and such...if you don't want to use e-mail, you can always just post a link in Meta to the thread to get some mod's attention.



 Please _don't_ do that. We really prefer not to draw attention to flame wars; that only makes them worse.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 30, 2004)

The counsil is a group of 5 DM's who act, with me, as the figureheads and rulers of the DMF. They are all expereinced DMs who vote on suggestions for the DMF. If we get this website idea up an drunning I imagien the counsil will be much more active than normal. It's not a particularly larger amount of responsibility (save a vote every now and then) other than beign looked up to by the new DMs.

Does that clear things up? (Mordmorgan I still need your vote, I have mine [obviously] and Xen is gone for a while so unless our vote conflict just us will be good enough)


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 30, 2004)

Oh btw:

@LilMissKittyn
[sblock]Sweetheart, the language you'll be learning is C++ which is useless on the web since it is platform-dependant. I'll barely be able to help any and I've had a full semester of Java. I know basic HTML but that will be virtually useless...I dont' think you'd be able to help with teh programming but your ideas would be appreciated! Love you![/sblock]


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## Blade of Desecration (Dec 30, 2004)

Alright, the website is a cool idea.

Second, like everyone else said, this is just a small little corner of people we trust (Chaos Evoker, lets get us some ultralisks and zerglings    ).

Anybody else got a topic?


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 30, 2004)

What solutions do you guys have to groups tht tend to have too much dispersement in alignment? (Thereby makign the risk of PvP very high)

(*as a Zealot Hero unit (lv 20 Mind blade) manfests his psiblades* We'll get us PLENTY of Zerglings.....Ultralisks...are another story.) 

[Btw did any of you Starcraft players ever notice the name of the hero Ultralisk? I think it's one your familiar with....I'll leave it as a surprise for you to find, but I think you'll recognize the name...)


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## BSF (Dec 30, 2004)

I see we had a bit of lag this morning.  Boy will I be happy when the server upgrade is complete.  

If you have players that choose PCs with widely disparate alignments, and it is interfering with the game, ask yourself why.  

Are they intentionally trying to stir up trouble because they like tension?
Are there player vs player issues?
Do they operate under the mistaken impression that if all the PCs are the same alignment that they need to be bestest friends and always get along?
Do they "gotta be different" because they want that attention that comes from being the troublemaker?  

Why does the player(s) choose a disparate alignment?  If you can find that answer, you can beging corrective measures to make your campaign better. 

If the player is looking for more tension, then you need to ramp your game up so it isn't so ho-hum.  This might mean making the combats tougher, but that need not be the only solution.  Perhaps the player likes more uncertainty and drama.  Look to Ravenloft and similar games for ways to step up your tension.  Or maybe you need to add more political intrigue and mystery.  Perhaps all your NPCs are too easy to get along with and you need more conflict outside the party.  

If you have player vs player issues, then you need to discuss that with the players.  Maybe they need to tone it down, or maybe somebody needs to leave.  There have been tons of threads about problem players on EN World.  If you have one, post your situation in the general discussion and you will get a lot of replies.

Now if the players operate under the notion that all the PCs always get along and everyone is just smiling-people-holding-hands, they need to think outside the box for RP.  I had a game where two players were playing a Paladin and a Cleric of the same god.  The PCs were the same alignment and were generally friends.  But there were times when they would disagree on the proper way to handle a situation.  It was some good roleplaying because both had legitimate perspectives for the PCs.  They could vehemently disagree, but then they could turn around and work together.  Think of all the times when you disagree with your friends about something.  In the end, you are still friends right?  You still trust each other despite your differences.  Why can't PCs do the same?  If you have a Player that has to play a PC that is different just because not everyone should get along, point out the shortsightedness of that perspective.  

If you have a player that plays PCs that are different so he can get attention, you have a couple of possible issues.  One is that the player is a drama queen.  The other is that you are not doing as good a job at giving your PCs (and by extension your players) moments to shine.  Be sure that you give each PC that moment where they are cool and the center of attention.  Every PC has strengths and one of your jobs is to be sure those strengths are highlighted from time to time.

By no means is this an all-inclusive list, but I think it helps get some ideas started.  

If you are beginning a campaign and you fear the disparate alignment syndrome, then I suggest that you begin with heavy conditions.  There is no reason why you can't say that all PCs must come from the same region and share the same general morality/ethics.  I know it sounds like it won't work, but stop and really think about it.  Make it a story reason why everyone starts off like that and many players will be happy to make their character and see where the story is going to go.


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## Nightcloak (Dec 30, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> The counsil is a group of 5 DM's who act, with me, as the figureheads and rulers of the DMF. They are all expereinced DMs who vote on suggestions for the DMF. If we get this website idea up an drunning I imagien the counsil will be much more active than normal. It's not a particularly larger amount of responsibility (save a vote every now and then) other than beign looked up to by the new DMs.




I'd be more than happy to put 25 years of DMing experience to community work


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## Nightcloak (Dec 30, 2004)

I'll just second the advice given by BardSephenFox. He's got all the approaches well covered. 

When I've had this issue I either:
 A) Talk to the characters to encourage them to get on the same page or 
 B) Give the group something really bad to worry about (this usually leads them to solution A on their own...)


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 30, 2004)

I must just be lucky. None of my players have ever tried to kill each other (well, once, but we got rid of that guy), and alignment conflicts almost never happen. For some reason, they just love Neutral Good.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 30, 2004)

http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id=276&SRC=EnWorld

Possibility for hosted forums. 
And I've gotten involved in the community outside of the DMF, but may not be able to keep it up for long. We'll see how school goes.

As far as PC conflicts go...hehe. No comment here, just a bit of guilt on my part.


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## BSF (Dec 30, 2004)

I use a private hosted forum for my Friday night group.  Works well so far.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 31, 2004)

Thanks for the advise, fortunately our group decided to be all CG this time around (a blessing) god advise nevertheless I'll keep that in mind!


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 31, 2004)

Announcing two new counsil members!

BardStephenFox

AND

Nightcloak

Congrats on your positions guys!


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## Blade of Desecration (Dec 31, 2004)

All I have to do now is to decide which one's brain to eat first.  *sigh*  I love being an illithid savant.


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## LilMissKittyn (Dec 31, 2004)

Time to try out my cool new "I know how to do spoilers" ability.

@CE
[sblock] Since it's hard to get ahold of you otherwise, I'll just post it here. I asked about the LG Drow, and got a variety of responses. http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1936494#post1936494 As far as programming goes - just trying to be useful. I feel a bit left out that I can't offer advice, so I might as well use what talent I have here. I'm calling in the morning, if I can! Love you! [/sblock]

Congratulations to our new council members! 

Sorry I don't have anything discussion-relevant to say!


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 31, 2004)

I have to say that while I've been DMing various D&D settings for about 12 years, I have very little knowledge of non-D&D material. The reason I bring this up is due in large part to the videogame Goldeneye: Rogue Agent. I love the James Bond world, and I've been inspired by this game to create a Bond-esque spy campaign. Only problem is, I don't know of any books in which to look for applicable rules. The obvious ones are d20 Modern and its brethren (which I plan to take a look at this weekend). I've heard of a book, which I think is called something like Spycraft, but I really can't remember.

I own most of the Bond movies and all of the video games (except Agent Under Fire because it... wasn't up to snuff), so inspiration shouldn't be a problem. I just need suggestions on where to look for rules  and other crunch (preferably d20 as I'm not much of a fan of conversion and my PCs are just getting comfortable with those rules).

Thanks in advance.


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## Speed-Stick (Dec 31, 2004)

Spycraft by AEG. Great great rules system. http://www.spycraftrpg.com/ Its great for Spy/Action Movie type games. I've run a few sessions with it, and its not all that differnt from  standard D20.


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## Piratecat (Dec 31, 2004)

You absolutely want Spycraft. It's one of my favorite d20 books, and (so long as you pick peoples' gadgets and gear for them ahead of time) it's a glorious conversion of spy movies into fun gaming.


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## Pbartender (Dec 31, 2004)

Allow me to address an earlier question, as I have no small experience with a very similar situation...



			
				LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> And now for my first naive question:
> What's the best way to work transient PC's into a campaign? (People that can't play all the time, but still want to be able to play).





			
				LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> ...So, I guess my real question is, what do you do with transient characters in a mistrustful and irresponsible group?




I work a rotating shift.  Depending on the week, I work days, evenings or midnight shifts, and I work three out of every five weekends.  This made it a little tricky to join in regularly scheduled gaming sessions.  Since my schedule is very predictable, we finally decided to run two games...  One that I play in during the three weekends I don't work, and another that I don't play in during the two weekends I do work...  That's your first option, if the missing players are always the same people and are relatively predictable in their absences.

If not, then a second option is what we tried before we decided to play two different games...  Make certain the character of the part-time player is a member of a guild or secret society.  Part of the catch of bekonging to this guild is that fact that the members are always 'on call' for guild missions and such.

Each member of the guild carries an identification badge...  an amulet or ring or some such...  which is enchanted with a permanent Refuge spell.  Whenever the guild requires the services of the PC, they activate the Refuge badge, instantly teleporting the PC back to the guild hall right in the middle of whatever he had been doing.  When the guild is finished with him, they scry out his friends for him, and teleport him back.

Instant out, instant in.  No need to explain what he'd been doing...  "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you."  And you can even award him some basic XP for the adventures he has off-stage, if you want.



			
				Y.O.Morales said:
			
		

> I've been thinking for a while about the possibility of hosting the DMF in its own website (however, we must change the name to Game Master Foundation or otherwise we'll get a nice letter from WotC's lawyers). How that sounds?
> 
> If it's a viable option, I could help in setting up the website, but my aid will have to wait as I'm currently building my own personal website too.




If you're interested, I'd like to extend an invitation to all of you to the Rat Bastard DM's Club.

We run a message board that's solely devoted to everything you want to accomplish with the DMF.  The actual RBDMC is a private forum, where we can discuss and suggest adventure plans without worrying about our players sneeking peeks; it is roughly analogous to your DMF counsel.  The Crucible Forum is open to the public, however, and anyone is welcome to join in and post; The Crucible serves the exact same purpose as the DMF.

We're always looking for more traffic on our boards.  If nothing else, it can be a good example of how to put your own web-site/message-boards together, should you so choose.


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## Buttercup (Dec 31, 2004)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> Just honest speculation here...
> 
> I don't think the creators of this thread are trying to limit themselves so much as they are trying to stay in touch with each other specifically. Instead of having a thread by subject they are having a thread by dialog. With the size of ENWorld and it's continued growth, it makes since that some people are going to gravitate together and want to have a more direct dialog instead of searching across many threads to have that dialog on a per subject basis. Kind of like the Hivemind in OT.
> 
> I'm sure no one is limiting themselves by just sticking to this one thread, and they will be taking advantage of all that ENWorld has to offer (kick the tires and take it out for a spin). For a lot of us, it’s become our home on the web and I’m sure it will become theirs too!



Gotcha.  It's another clique.  Enjoy yourselves then.


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## ChaosEvoker (Dec 31, 2004)

I have a question, how does one go about adventuring in a d20 Modern campaign? You can't really jsut kill things there is law enforcement and such. It's kidn fo hard to "adventure" is the normal sence of the word. So hwo do you adventure in a d20 Modern world?


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## Darkness (Dec 31, 2004)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> So hwo do you adventure in a d20 Modern world?



 You could set the campaign up like an action movie, except that it's a campaign rather than a one-shot (which the movies are).

The PCs could all be cops, special forces, martial artists, ninjas, mobsters, etc.


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 31, 2004)

Few things...

Spies have gone underused in D&D games for a long time. There's a huge Dragon article that talks about their utility but I don't have the issue number handy. For other ideas, like magic items thats that can spy, try Dynasties & Demigouges as that has some interesting options for the more political aspects of a spy campaign.

d20 Modern: Adventuring in the modern world represents many difficulties from the standard. Part of this is solved in the campaign selection. For example, if you use something liek Shadowchasers to emulate say, Buffy, then you've got direction and style going on already. Other games need to be rooted to something, say a group of professors who discover some weird activity suggesting cultists or perhaps a military group given a new breed of physical enhancement performing drugs.


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## Darkness (Dec 31, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> There's a huge Dragon article that talks about their utility but I don't have the issue number handy.



 316 is about spies.


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## Blade of Desecration (Dec 31, 2004)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> I have to say that while I've been DMing various D&D settings for about 12 years, I have very little knowledge of non-D&D material. The reason I bring this up is due in large part to the videogame Goldeneye: Rogue Agent. I love the James Bond world, and I've been inspired by this game to create a Bond-esque spy campaign. Only problem is, I don't know of any books in which to look for applicable rules. The obvious ones are d20 Modern and its brethren (which I plan to take a look at this weekend). I've heard of a book, which I think is called something like Spycraft, but I really can't remember.
> 
> I own most of the Bond movies and all of the video games (except Agent Under Fire because it... wasn't up to snuff), so inspiration shouldn't be a problem. I just need suggestions on where to look for rules  and other crunch (preferably d20 as I'm not much of a fan of conversion and my PCs are just getting comfortable with those rules).
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Another game that could be used for this purpose is Shadowrun, though that's more of a mob/merc game.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Dec 31, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> You absolutely want Spycraft. It's one of my favorite d20 books, and (so long as you pick peoples' gadgets and gear for them ahead of time).



That's why I've got Q   

I'll really have to take a look at Spycraft, especially if it's d20.

Regarding Adventuring in d20 Modern: it's really not all that different. True, you can't go around killing random folks (sorta the same in a D&D campaign), but depending on who you work for, murder is acceptable (like a 00 agent [which means you've got a license to kill], or a CIA agent). Of course, you could be freedom fighters and on the lamb or hiding underground. If there are monsterous creatures in the game, I don't think many cops would mind a group of "adventurers" sending them to thier maker.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 1, 2005)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> That's why I've got Q
> 
> I'll really have to take a look at Spycraft, especially if it's d20.
> 
> Regarding Adventuring in d20 Modern: it's really not all that different. True, you can't go around killing random folks (sorta the same in a D&D campaign), but depending on who you work for, murder is acceptable (like a 00 agent [which means you've got a license to kill], or a CIA agent). Of course, you could be freedom fighters and on the lamb or hiding underground. If there are monsterous creatures in the game, I don't think many cops would mind a group of "adventurers" sending them to thier maker.



That beign the problem, normally there aren't montrous creatures in d20 Modern, or so the impression I got. unlses you work for a government agency of some kind, you can't be an adventuerer. Freedom fighters would be attacked by the military, and, quite honestly, wouldn't stand a chance. I'm sitll having a hard time with this.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 1, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> That beign the problem, normally there aren't montrous creatures in d20 Modern, or so the impression I got. unlses you work for a government agency of some kind, you can't be an adventuerer. Freedom fighters would be attacked by the military, and, quite honestly, wouldn't stand a chance. I'm sitll having a hard time with this.



According to the d20 Modern book, they've got a few supernatural baddies (including the bodak). See this link for examples.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 1, 2005)

I guess if I BOUGHT the d20 modern book that might help....


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## LilMissKittyn (Jan 1, 2005)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> I own most of the Bond movies and all of the video games (except Agent Under Fire because it... wasn't up to snuff), so inspiration shouldn't be a problem. I just need suggestions on where to look for rules  and other crunch (preferably d20 as I'm not much of a fan of conversion and my PCs are just getting comfortable with those rules).
> 
> Thanks in advance.




Bond? I guess...I just don't see the correlation, being raised on Tolkein and such. But that's a cool idea.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 1, 2005)

To the DMF:

Happy New Year!!!!! 2005!!!!

Have a great upcoming year!! May all your games be kool, may you constantly cheer while gaming "Hoody Hoo!" and may your games be "frickin' A!" (yes KODT phrases. Knight Of the Dinner Table for all of you who don't know what KODT is. If you haven't owned nay KODT comic books, get some. you owe it to yourself.)


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## LilMissKittyn (Jan 1, 2005)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> If not, then a second option is what we tried before we decided to play two different games...  Make certain the character of the part-time player is a member of a guild or secret society.  Part of the catch of bekonging to this guild is that fact that the members are always 'on call' for guild missions and such.
> 
> If you're interested, I'd like to extend an invitation to all of you to the Rat Bastard DM's Club. QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 1, 2005)

Happy 2005 everyone!  
I am now fourteen years old, as of 8:06 PM 12-31-04!  Yeah, that was my birthday!  *does oddly disconcerting jig*


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## BSF (Jan 1, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Announcing two new counsil members!
> 
> BardStephenFox
> 
> ...




Wow thanks.  I'm not quite sure what I need to do.  But you can AIM me when it becomes important.  (BardStephenFox)


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## BSF (Jan 1, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> I guess if I BOUGHT the d20 modern book that might help....



Not necessarily.  Check the SRD for a lot of good information.  Obviously you lose a lot of the pre-made flavor text, but the SRD is a good place to work from.  

WotC's D20 Modern SRD
If you just want the HTML version, you could check out Barsoomcore's MSRD


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## BSF (Jan 1, 2005)

Happy Birthday Blade of Desecration.  

Wow, you just turned 14 eh?  I think I was trying to run an "Against the Giants" series of games when I was 14.  Either that or "Against the SlaveLords".  Actually, it was probably the slavelords series and I was trying to ramp people up to go fight some giants.   

But that was 20 years ago.  It's been a while.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 1, 2005)

Happy Birthday BoD!!! I hope you didn't get too many X-mas/B-day combo presents   

Happy New Year to all.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 1, 2005)

@BardStephenFox
I'll AIM you if we need you to do anything. Otherwise just do what you've been doing.

@BoD
Congrats! I remember my 14th birthday....wait....no I don't. nvm!


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 1, 2005)

*Continues jig*


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 1, 2005)

Well, ChaosEvoker has reminded me that we've got an empty seat on the Council and it needs to be filled. I haven't seen DungeonMasterCal for a few pages (but it being the hollidays, we won't hold that against him   ), but I'm going to nominate him for the spot.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 2, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Announcing two new counsil members!
> 
> BardStephenFox
> 
> ...






Thank you kind sirs! Message me if you need something.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 2, 2005)

Congrats to you Blade of Desecration! 

May year 14 be filled with RPG goodness   

...

[/nostalgia-feeling old highjack]

Damn, 14 years ago I was complaining about TSR making 2E and how I wasn't going to upgrade my homebrew to the *new edition*   

[/nostalgia-feeling old highjack over]


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 2, 2005)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> Well, ChaosEvoker has reminded me that we've got an empty seat on the Council and it needs to be filled. I haven't seen DungeonMasterCal for a few pages (but it being the hollidays, we won't hold that against him   ), but I'm going to nominate him for the spot.





Ahh...ummm...thanks?  I'm not sure what a council member is supposed to do, but thanks for the nomination!  I reckon I'll take it if no one else more qualified shows up!

and yes...I've been away visiting family this weekend.


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## LilMissKittyn (Jan 2, 2005)

(Wondering what kind of jig as her brain is slowly hypnotized by the dancing....)

...Maybe not. 



			
				ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> The counsil is a group of 5 DM's who act, with me, as the figureheads and rulers of the DMF. They are all expereinced DMs who vote on suggestions for the DMF. If we get this website idea up an drunning I imagien the counsil will be much more active than normal. It's not a particularly larger amount of responsibility (save a vote every now and then) other than beign looked up to by the new DMs.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 2, 2005)

The final counsil member has been accepted:

DungeonmasterCal

Welcome to the counsil!

Yeah I grew up on 2nd Ed but by the time I got my own books I had third ed. Taught myself the whole 3.0 rules....Then 3.5 showed up. Anyway, have we heard anymore about that website and getting that moving along?


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## Dyne (Jan 2, 2005)

Happy birthday, CotDS. Erm, I mean Blade of Desecration. I was 14 when I started playing D&D. It was also the year I had the most growing up to do, thus far.... I wish you luck in your growing pains to come.

Even before I stumbled across the Dungeons & Dragons game, I had been searching for something. I always enjoyed playing simple board games and card games (especially Magic the Gathering), but nothing had the detail to satisfy me. I thought I had stumbled upon a great treasure when I discovered D&D, and I proceeded to soak up all the 3.0 rules. However, I was unfortunate enough to discover it at the time when D&D was switching over to 3.5, and I still don't entirely understand all the new rules. That aside, even though I found D&D very enjoyable, I still never satisfied myself entirely, and so the hunt continues.

Before stumbling upon the game, I had made countless efforts to create my own game that eventually developed into a very detailed card game that was much like a roleplaying game. After familiarizing myself with the D20 rules, however, my approach to this new game has changed dramatically.

I have recently once again taken up the charge of creating this new game, and I believe I have made huge milestones in advancement compared to before. My hope is to create a game much like D&D, but that would be more true to the Lord of the Rings setting, as well as simplifying some areas and expanding upon others. I eventually hope to end up with a game that is enjoyable to play, is structured and balanced, is stream-lined while providing more options, takes a different approach to Magic (stupid Vancian spellcasting...), and that eliminates the "power creep" of D&D.

So far, I've redone combat so that Attack and Damage are dependant on a single roll, I've eliminated the necessity of all other dice except for the 20-sided die (and perhaps the 6-sided, since everyone has those anyway), I've begun on a leveling system that takes characters to level 100 (instead of 20) without all the Epic Level mumbo jumbo, and I've brainstormed some ideas to make the game depend less on magic so that it would be more mysterious and more of a bonus instead of a necessity. I've also begun on an arcane spellcasting class that uses spells much like a Warlock, instead of those darn spells per day and preparing ahead of time. The game will probably end up being Low-Magic (compared to D&D), but I've already got some ideas to give more options for mundane things. Weapons are more unique statistically (there is a big difference between a longsword and a battleaxe, not just crits), but I have yet to convert all the D&D weapons over. But, so far, weapons can grant AC bonuses (since you can block with a sword, for example) instead of just being used to attack, and different weapons are betting at blocking with and such.

This whole thing will be an epic undertaking, so I may bounce some ideas off you guys from time to time. Currently, I'm trying to figure out how to do a Mage and how to make potions based off Alchemy. I believe Mordmorgan has already altered the rules for potions so that they depend on alchemy, so it would be appreciated if I could get some input from him. For the Mage, I've been trying to compare a Sorcerer to a Warlock in order to make a balanced class. So far, it looks like a Warlock actually surpasses a Sorcerer in spellcasting power. :\


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## Nightcloak (Jan 2, 2005)

Whoa Dyne, good luck - that be a tall order to fill. One I'm sure will be worth the effort in the end. If you’re inclined, post something later down the road. It would be interesting so see your rules.

If you can, you might want to pick up some low fantasy settings on the market for ideas. Conan and Grim Tales offer new rules - but they may be more complex than what you are shooting for.

As far as potions, for a low magic game I would probably just add an Alchemy check to the standard rules, say DC 15 plus spell level. For an epic game with Sword and Sorcery flavor I'd set the DC at 25 plus spell level with the caveat of exotic component bringing down the DC and magical locations or power rituals (cabals or sacrifice) also bringing down the DC. Since more goes into the potion creation process (your dedicating a skill ranks and the added possibility for failure) I would also open up the ability for all spell levels. Be sure to adjust the price upwards since potion creation is rare.

As far as the sorcerer goes, it sounds like the Warlock packs flavor for the type of game your shooting for anyway. Roll with it, nothing says your game needs to include every core class. 

Hope that helps. Good Luck!


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## Darkness (Jan 2, 2005)

Dyne said:
			
		

> So far, it looks like a Warlock actually surpasses a Sorcerer in spellcasting power. :\



 Well, they don't have much flexibility. They can repeat a few effects over and over but they don't have very many of them. Same thing with damage, and they can hardly match other arcane casters' strongest damage effects at the same level with eldritch blast, damage-wise. But they can do it all day long.

Besides, many people seem to consider the sorcerer as somewhat on the weak side... (Personally, I think they could use a few more Cha-based class skills, for starters.)


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 2, 2005)

*etter sorcerer*

Try  this sorcerer variant .  I like this guys work much better than the standard ones.  They're more flexible and balanced.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 2, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> The final counsil member has been accepted:
> DungeonmasterCal





Thanks!  

Dyne, I'm very interested in your ideas.  Can't wait to see more.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 2, 2005)

Blade of Desecration said:
			
		

> Try  this sorcerer variant .  I like this guys work much better than the standard ones.  They're more flexible and balanced.




Szatany does great work.  I'd love to get my players to try out his work.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 3, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Szatany does great work.  I'd love to get my players to try out his work.



Yeah, man's _nuts_.  He's crazy I tell you!  Can't wait to see if he does any more of these.


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## Stone Angel (Jan 3, 2005)

Hey sign me up for membership.

We just finished our first Epic Level adventure/mini campaign. I really had only one problem and I had noticed in regular level play it was much more apparent in the higher levels. Arcane casters dmg (primarily wizards) vs. other characters damage output. The only one that could really compete that I have seen at least was a frenzy berserker with a g. axe power attacking for 25 everytime.

So how do you if you at all regulate this curve? Suggestions, what has worked or hasn't. What mitigating factors if any do you feel justify this espicially at higher levels maybe not epic level play but the higher tier of regular levels?


The Seraph of Earth and Stone


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## Dyne (Jan 3, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> Whoa Dyne, good luck - that be a tall order to fill. One I'm sure will be worth the effort in the end. If you’re inclined, post something later down the road. It would be interesting so see your rules.
> 
> If you can, you might want to pick up some low fantasy settings on the market for ideas. Conan and Grim Tales offer new rules - but they may be more complex than what you are shooting for.
> 
> ...




On Warlocks:
I want the game to be more low-magic, but I don't want all spellcasters to route their power from a fiendish source. Vancian spellcasting just annoys me. Spellcasters would still be a necessity, since I want the setting to be somewhat magical, but I want them to have fewer restrictions while still staying balanced in comparison to the other classes. I'll take the Warlock idea of invocations to these spellcasting classes, but the rest of the class doesn't fit.

On potions:
Actually, I would have them be more common. The idea was to be able to have any old apothecary be able to mix together a few herbs and: voila, a potion. But, in order for this to totally work, I would have to go through and eliminate some of the potions that don't totally fit the idea because they are too closely tied to magic. I think I'll use your idea for pricing, though.

On the Sorcerer:
I think I've got it worked out. When starting off, a Sorcerer will start with 5 "spell slots." Basically, he can spend those slots for spells. If he puts 1 slot into a spell, he can use that spell 1/day. If he puts 2 slots in a single spell, he can use it 2/day. This follows up to 5 slots, which will let him use the spell at will. I think I've decided that a Sorcerer begins with 5 spell slots at 1st level, but he gains an additional spell slot every level. At 1st level, he can only use 0 and 1st-level spells. At 11th level, he gains access to 2nd-level spells, at 21st, he gains access to 3rd-level spells, etc. I might have to adjust some of the spells, however, since they might quickly lose their worth.

I'm also working on a "Book Wizard." He would be able to learn more spells than the Sorcerer, and probably be able to use all at will, but he would have to cast all of them out of his spellbook, and doing so would take much longer to cast each spell than it would take a Sorcerer. I'm thinking on doing it pretty much like the D&D Wizard, but getting rid of the Spells per Day, and increasing the casting time to at least 1 round for each spell. So, to cast a spell, a "Book Wizard" would have to use up a full-round action to begin casting, and the spell wouldn't resolve until just before his next turn. To make the Sorcerer more appealing, (since the 1 round casting time of the "Book Wizare" might not be enough to balance things) I was thinking on changing the Sorcerer HD to d6, and let the "Book Wizard" have a HD of d4.

I might take a few things from the Ultimate character class series. The Sorcerer and the "Book Wizard," for example, might actually be two forms of the same class. I want to do this to get rid of the necessity of multiclassing, since it's difficult to create a character that totally fits your style otherwise, and having a character with levels in 3 or more classes be a common thing totally annoys me.


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## Dyne (Jan 3, 2005)

Stone Angel said:
			
		

> Hey sign me up for membership.
> 
> We just finished our first Epic Level adventure/mini campaign. I really had only one problem and I had noticed in regular level play it was much more apparent in the higher levels. Arcane casters dmg (primarily wizards) vs. other characters damage output. The only one that could really compete that I have seen at least was a frenzy berserker with a g. axe power attacking for 25 everytime.
> 
> ...




I haven't played much at higher levels, but spellcasters have problems from the start. At lower levels, it is difficult to even keep them alive. But, once they reach 5th level and above, they start pumping out the power.

Magic just plays too large of a role in D&D. This is why I'm working on a new game setting. The only way that spellcasters can really be kept in the game without getting out of hand that I can see is that the Player who controls the character be more responsible. If a spellcasting character was more of a support character, and he only used his abilities when the party needed them most, and instead of using his abilities at every turn he allowed the rest of the party to do their stuff, then it wouldn't be a problem. But, then Wizards start to turn into the D&D version of Jedi, which they really shouldn't in my opinion.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 3, 2005)

You may want to take a look at the Call of Cthulhu magic system. Anyone can use magic but they take ability damage (and sometimes ability drain) as well as sanity damage.


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## Lady Firehawk (Jan 3, 2005)

That sounds kinda cool... 

Happy New Year's, people! First time with Net access since... Thursday, LOL.


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## Dyne (Jan 3, 2005)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> You may want to take a look at the Call of Cthulhu magic system. Anyone can use magic but they take ability damage (and sometimes ability drain) as well as sanity damage.




Definitely not. I don't want magic use to be damaging, I just don't want it to outshine absolutely everything else in the game, or the become so necessary that higher level characters without a crapload of magic items are horrible against creatures that are supposedly their encounter level.

Actually, I think I'm gonna give the Sorcerer twice as many spell slots as I decided on before. Each one is still only equal to one spell per day, and I don't want them to be too limited.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 3, 2005)

@ Topic: Caster Damage
If you keep it the way it is, it is a justified system. For instance: An epic fighter, with two weapons: If he has Improved Critical (scimitar), and both of his weapons are _+5 Vorpal Scimitars_ then we are talking a crit range of 15-20 (25% or rolls) and (assuuming he has all the feats) 8 attacks. Now that should result in about 2 decapitations a round on average. 2 Instant kills a round regardless of the target (unless its undead or something, most things die when their heads are removed) Now that seems like a pretty good balance to a Sorceror chucking _Hellballs_.

@Sorceror Variant
WOW! That variant is awesome and amazingly creative. That so goes into my next campaign


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 3, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> @ Topic: Caster Damage
> If you keep it the way it is, it is a justified system. For instance: An epic fighter, with two weapons: If he has Improved Critical (scimitar), and both of his weapons are _+5 Vorpal Scimitars_ then we are talking a crit range of 15-20 (25% or rolls) and (assuuming he has all the feats) 8 attacks. Now that should result in about 2 decapitations a round on average. 2 Instant kills a round regardless of the target (unless its undead or something, most things die when their heads are removed) Now that seems like a pretty good balance to a Sorceror chucking _Hellballs_.



The Vorpal property only works on a natural 20, so you're still looking at a 5% chance per hit. You'd be better off with a "Burst" weapon (i.e. Flaming Burst) which does an extra 1d10 on a crit.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 3, 2005)

REALLY? I haven't read all of my new _DMG 3.5_ so that must be a change. nvm then.


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## Xen155 (Jan 3, 2005)

Hail to the Foundation Of Dungeon Masters!

IM BAAAAAAACK!!!!!!!!!!

And its good to see so many of the DMFs freinds made the switch to, from all that i've seen, A better Forum. 
This place has grown insanely fast and Im not sure who all is here so give me awhile and i'll be back up to full speed.

Good to be back.


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## BSF (Jan 3, 2005)

One thing you should keep in mind is that magic is a limited resource.  Melee types can swing their weapons all day long.  Well, so long as they don't run out of the HP limited resource.  Archers and the like are limited by their ammunition.  Spellcasters are limited by their spells/day.  Of course, scrolls, wands and similar items can buff that up as well.  

So, spellscasters do a good job of using limited resources to spike huge amounts of damage at a time.  Melee specialists just swing and swing and swing.  Especially since the concept of combat fatigue is abstracted into HP.  Over the course of a day, a melee combatant can dish out more damage than any spellcaster.  

But that is not how most adventuring groups work.  Everybody recognizes the value of the heavy spells.  So when a spellcaster begins to run low on spells, most adventuring groups will choose to fallback, regroup and replenish spells.  This is natural.  If you want to maximize survivability, you minimize your weaknesses.  But it does help push spellcasting to a more valuable presence in the game.  

So how do you change that?  Well, you present scenarios that are designed to drain resources as well as placing time constraints on the story.  Use attrition to emphasize the groups reliance on magic solutions.  Give them 13 hours in which they have to break into the cults hidden lair, fight their way to the room where the ritual is being held and then stop the ritual.  Then construct the scenario so that they have to go through several challenges to reach that goal.  Force them to make difficult choices and if they fall back to regroup, they fail to stop the ritual.  Bad things happen and they are left with the knowledge that they wussed out rather then stop it.  

Of course, if your group has never dealt with this before, it might not be well received.  "It wasn't fair", "there was no way we could win", and other similar battle whines might be heard.  No, it might not be fair.  This is a cult trying to reach a goal.  Do you really think they would leave themselves unprotected at the height of their ritual?  Make sure there is a way to win, but don't make sure it is easy.  Failure is part of character development.  Taking big risks is part of being a hero.  Victory in adverse conditions is all the more sweet.  

In the last campaign I ran, the heroes chose to journey through "The Impassable Forest".  This was a little scenario that I called Attrition.  The PC's would be attacked every 2-6 hours.  They were torn between staying in one place to get rest and never advancing, or moving forward and hoping they could withstand the onslaught.  They eventually won a brief reprieve when they neared an outpost they were looking for and hunkered down in hiding long enough to prep an assault.  That assault didn't go very well, but they did win.  Then they had to journey further into the forest to move closer to their goal.  The lowpoint came when they neared the area controlled by the yuan-ti.  This was the goal they were aiming for, but they managed to get a patrol of yuan-ti rangers on their tail.  This patrol called in two other patrols.  The three groups of three rangers would take turns.  They would sneak up on the camp, launch arrows into anybody sleeping, drop a darkness on the camp and leave.  There were 9 of them and each can use darkness once a day.  The spellcasters were next to useless after a while.  They couldn't rest long enough to get spells because each time they tried, they would get hit with arrows.  

The group averaged 6-7th level at the time.

They eventually prevailed and were victorious.  It took a lot of hard work and they struggled greatly.  But the players still show a certain amount of pride at having succeeded and none of them think the melee combatants are nothing more than fodder.  They know that the melee combatants were the ones that eventually won the reprieve that let them regain their rest, and spells.  

It was a fun scenario.  I kept thinking they would turn around and flee, but they kept pressing onward until their only option was to go forward.  The groups tactics improved a bit.  They later encountered situations where they would have liked to have fallen back to regroup, but they knew they didn't have the time.  They dealt with it and I think almost every single PC had a moment where they could shine in that campaign.  

So yes, magic is an important resource in D&D.  But it only overshines everything when the group allows it to.  As DM, you can force them to rely less on magic.  Or at least to use their magic more effectively than in big evocations.  Sometimes a scry or a wall spell will have infinitely more value than chain lightning.  Force the players to look at different options by putting the PCs in peril with tough decisions.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 4, 2005)

Dyne. Do to the sheer scope of your project, I’m just going to just throw a bunch of ideas about and see if any of it is helpful. 



			
				Dyne said:
			
		

> On Warlocks: I want the game to be more low-magic, but I don't want all spellcasters to route their power from a fiendish source. Vancian spellcasting just annoys me.




Midnight has a completely different approach to arcane magic. It is based on spell points. Any class can take the Magecraft feat that grants spell point and access to limited arcane casting (one school). The channeler class allows those with the Magecraft feat to excel at spell casting by increasing spell points and access to more schools of magic. The system gives great versatility to spell casting without being overpowered. 

Another option I personally like a lot over the vancian spellcasting is the system in Arcana unearthed. It’s close to the standard system but much better IMO and incredibly more versatile. Plus the spells in AU are not as powerful on average to compensate.
Definitely worth a look.


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## Xen155 (Jan 4, 2005)

I love that Bard. In the End long fights are the most rewarding. And I wish my players were like yours (If wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets!), they would just get angry and complain.

@Evoker- Who all made it through the switch to these excellently moderated boards. I can not believe how active these moderators are compared to those hermits at the WotC Boards!


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## Nightcloak (Jan 4, 2005)

Dyne said:
			
		

> On potions: Actually, I would have them be more common. The idea was to be able to have any old apothecary be able to mix together a few herbs and: voila, a potion. But, in order for this to totally work, I would have to go through and eliminate some of the potions that don't totally fit the idea because they are too closely tied to magic.




Interesting. Way to go and push the system. I like it.

I would still keep the DC high so I rogue doesn’t get a wild hair one level, dump all of his skill ranks into Alchemy, then start pumping out potions. Then again, you may be cool with that…

You could eliminate some spells, or you could make it so spell casters only have the option for “highly magical” potions. Or you could keep the potions tied to magic but up the cost, DC, or require special components to make them rare. 

Another interesting idea for potions is what I did in my homebrew based on some ideas from the Diamond Throne: Change the nature of the potion so it thematically ties to the spell. Spells that effect the spell caster could be a potion (like invisibility) while spells that effect an area could be a powder or dust (Shield: Dust of Shielding). And finally, potions that affect others become oils (Oil of Burning Hands, pour it on your hands and point away, or Oil of Cure Light Wounds).


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## Nightcloak (Jan 4, 2005)

Xen155 said:
			
		

> I can not believe how active these moderators are compared to those hermits at the WotC Boards!




The Mods here rock. They are fair. Keep the peace (and help keep ENWorld great!). And love the game and give great input.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 4, 2005)

Bard has great advice for balancing high lever casters. 

The specific approach he mentions that I use in my game is to let the bad guys be smart. When the PCs get close, they are not going to let up on them so they can rest and come back powered up to end their carrier. I also make sure that the players are treated differently when in "enemy terrain"; whether that is a dungeon or the wild. They become the intruders and "monsters" treat them as such. If the PCs don't stay alert 24/7, then they're in trouble. This goes doubly so for spell casters, if they blow their spells all at once, and don't get a chance to rest for days to get new spells, then they're life just got real interesting. Spell Casters need to learn to rely on the "meat shields" and use their spells wisely.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 4, 2005)

Xen155 said:
			
		

> Hail to the Foundation Of Dungeon Masters!
> 
> IM BAAAAAAACK!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...



Xen the Great has returned!  All rejoice!


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## Xen155 (Jan 4, 2005)

Xen is back du du du back again du du du Xen is back du du du worship him.... 

@Evoker- Are you gonna run the DMFAC or should I get back to work on it?

@BoD- Good to see ya CotDS (If that is who you are  ) from what I have seen it looks like most of my followers..... I mean members have made the switch, good...good.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 4, 2005)

*Points dramatically (almost anime-like   ) at Xen*
FOOL! THIS IS MY FOUNDATION!!!! Great to see you back Tren...I mean...Xen. Heh heh.

@Resting topic
Yeah I started doing that recently rolling a percent chance for random encounters and such when PC's rest. This not only makes them have to prepare, but it makes clerics worth something. (Otherwise its just kind of like: "Low oh HP? Rest!" instead of "Low on HP? CLERIC!")

Oh yes...and since I just got some time:

NEW MEMBER:

Stone Angel

Welcome to the DMF! Everyone say hello!


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 4, 2005)

Btw, I'd liek to try to get an old project that fell through due to WotC Boards' rules...(*sigh*)

I'd like to announce the beggining (or re-beggining for you old-schoolers) of a DMF Project:

The Dungeon Masters' Foundation's Campaign!

In this, we would start with me DMing a game with 4-6 of our members as the PC's. After a while, or whenever it seems appropriate, switch and let someone else, who wants to, DM. Also when we switched DMs we woudl have new PC's (to give as many people a chance to play as possible)

This is an idea in its basics, so give me some feedback on what you think of this.


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## Xen155 (Jan 4, 2005)

Ha ha ha. thats a good one... Who wants to DM.

I support the idea, give me 2 weeks and i can have a fare capaign.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 4, 2005)

Read the above post and I quote: (oh the puns)



			
				Chaos Evoker said:
			
		

> we would start with me DMing




I would start DMing we coudl switch later.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 4, 2005)

Yeah, I liked the idea of a campaign.  We kinda got shot down on that one before though.  I'd be willing to DM for a time.  I think that the main purpose of this campaign is to gauge everyones DMing styles, so that we can give them tips on how to improve.  We can have someone DM so that they can correct any problems their style might bring.  I think part of the problem before is that we were going about it the wrong way.  That and not enough people wanted to do it.  If so few people want to do this this time around, we could have this as a little sub-thread for members who/want need the experience.  

@Xen:  Yeah, I'm CotDS.  Decided to get a different name though.  Got a whole bunch of different ones to go. (Hey, I just rhymed!  )


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## Dyne (Jan 4, 2005)

I might want to take part in such a campaign. But, before, we were gonna start at level 15. I would prefer that we started lower level, max level 5, to have a chance to develop our characters and everything.

Instead of restarting to introduce new people to the game, I don't see why they couldn't just be added to an ongoing campaign. I'm not very fond of starting a game and then restarting not long afterward.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 4, 2005)

Dyne said:
			
		

> I might want to take part in such a campaign. But, before, we were gonna start at level 15. I would prefer that we started lower level, max level 5, to have a chance to develop our characters and everything.
> 
> Instead of restarting to introduce new people to the game, I don't see why they couldn't just be added to an ongoing campaign. I'm not very fond of starting a game and then restarting not long afterward.



I thought we never really started in the first place back at WotC?
Anyways, I agree, we shoulg start out at lower levels.  I like character developement.
If enough people decide to join (doubt it, not many people did last time), we can always have more than one campaign.  
I do really think this is a good oportunity for DMing experience.  My local D&D group just started doing one of these in FR.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 4, 2005)

I'm going to be really tied up with work the next week, so I will be out of pocket.  So a pbp campaign would be out of the question for the next couple weeks.

Have fun!


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 4, 2005)

Dyne said:
			
		

> I might want to take part in such a campaign. But, before, we were gonna start at level 15. I would prefer that we started lower level, max level 5, to have a chance to develop our characters and everything.
> 
> Instead of restarting to introduce new people to the game, I don't see why they couldn't just be added to an ongoing campaign. I'm not very fond of starting a game and then restarting not long afterward.




umm...thinking of the IFWG? WE never got any specifics, buecause we got told that we could only do it in this one place on the WotC boards, and in that place we had to have been there as a player for a while to be allowed to DM it was pretty stupid, but it got shut down before it started. We won't start with characters any more than lv 5.

Assuming we get enough people here will be the character creation rules:
*Standard point buy OR 4d6 minus the lowest result.*
NOTE: ALL DICE ROLLS WILL BE DONE WITH THE FOLLOWING ONLINE DICE ROLLER:

Dice Roller
(click on the link to the left labeled "Roller" and from there it's pretty easy. Make sure to use the EXACT SAME CHARACTER NAME FOR EVERY ROLL YOU MAKE. When posting your roll results on the boards, make sure to say what the character name is so your DM can see your rolls. Also, all rolls must have a note describing what the roll is. This note is put in the Note (optional) line.)

*Character Class level: 1
ECL Max: 5*

In other words, *level in in character class will be 1* and *the total ECL will be no more than 5 due to race*. The highest ECL of the characters chosen will be the standard for the group. (for example the group is an elven wizard and a drow fighter. The drow has an ECL of 3 but the Wizard has an ECL of 1. Therefore, before the game starts, the Wizard will be raised to Level 3 to match the drow)

*Standard starting money* (based on class. High ECL characters DO NOT get more money)

Other than that, it's all up to you. Use any class from any book.


So what do you think of the creation specifics? Good? Bad? Give me your feedback. This project will be relayl great and we'll be able to get some newer DMs some experience DMing with this. I'm going to start as DM so it can get up and running. After that anyone who wants a shot at it can DM!


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## Xen155 (Jan 4, 2005)

Well, befor we begin we should git a list of every member who wants to be involved. Then a list of what position each member intends to fufill in the group. That is my extremly inportant opinion though and, although an excellent idea, is subject to some form of oppistion though I dont know why anybody would disagrea with my infoulable logic.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 4, 2005)

I have created the campaign thread. It contains soem of the IG specifics. Go ahead and create your characters if you want to play. Remember ANYONE who wants to play must post a character. From all the characters posted only 4-6 will be chosen, so make interesting characters!

The Campaign thread is here

Post your characters and let the game begin!!


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## Nightcloak (Jan 4, 2005)

@ CE: What kind of pace are you shooting for in the game. I've always wanted to get in on a PbP game but RL can tie me up for days sometimes. I'd hate to slow down the game if I'm awol on a business trip or such.

You claimed that all 3.5 material is open. Does that include all 3rd party material.

*Looks over shoulder at bookshelves full of material not written by WotC*


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 4, 2005)

AH Nightcloak, you bring up an excellent point:

All non-WotC and homebrew stuff needs to go through your DM first, if you have any of that, post it at the campaign thread or AIM me.


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## BSF (Jan 4, 2005)

ChaosEvoker, you might also check out the built-in die roller here on the boards.  Check the Got Dice? thread in Meta for details on how it works.  It might be a little more convenient than using something out-of-band.  *shrug*  Your call though.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 4, 2005)

@CE  A few things...
1. What should be alignment spectrum?  Good, Neautral, or Evil?  Or does it not matter?
2. How are we doing campaign world?
3. As I said before, if we have too many people, we can have more than one campaign, since nobody should be excluded.  The two groups could effect each other, maybe as rivals.
4.  If I'm in, I'll be whatever the party needs.  I could be a tank or a caster, whatever.  If I end up as a tank, I'll be barbarian; spellcaster as a warmage (CA); or a rogue.  If we need a cleric, whatever.  I'm not picky.
5. What if we use those Ultimate variants I showed you all before?


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 4, 2005)

@CE  A few things...
1. What should be alignment spectrum?  Good, Neautral, or Evil?  Or does it not matter?
2. How are we doing campaign world?
3. As I said before, if we have too many people, we can have more than one campaign, since nobody should be excluded.  The two groups could effect each other, maybe as rivals.
4.  If I'm in, I'll be whatever the party needs.  I could be a tank or a caster, whatever.  If I end up as a tank, I'll be barbarian; spellcaster as a warmage (CA); or a rogue.  If we need a cleric, whatever.  I'm not picky.
5. What if we use those Ultimate variants I showed you all before?


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## Dyne (Jan 4, 2005)

Character gold should be determined by ECL, not character level. That is, if everyone starts off at the same ECL (which it seems like, by the way you put it). It doesn't seem fair that a character gets less gold than everyone else because they decided to choose a race with a LA, especially when LA's can already be brutal.

I don't think that _anyone_ should be excluded. If we're going along and someone else wants to join in, *bam* they're in. There are plenty of ways to work their character in. If someone wants to start up another campaign while this one is already going on, then they are welcome and able to.

I've been contemplating something, ever since I found those tests concerning characters and stats. I've always thought of having a game in which everyone's character was of the same race and class as indicated by the test, and that they're stats were according to how the test rated them. I think it would give the game a different feel, and make the characters more personal. Of course, if someone preferred something different, they are welcome to make a different character. It's just a thought. What does everyone else think?

I'm aiming for a campaign that will last for some amount of time. I'd also prefer a more low-magic setting instead of one that is so chock-full of magic that it becomes mundane. Of course, I wouldn't really mind much either way.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 5, 2005)

Dyne said:
			
		

> Character gold should be determined by ECL, not character level. That is, if everyone starts off at the same ECL (which it seems like, by the way you put it). It doesn't seem fair that a character gets less gold than everyone else because they decided to choose a race with a LA, especially when LA's can already be brutal.
> 
> I don't think that _anyone_ should be excluded. If we're going along and someone else wants to join in, *bam* they're in. There are plenty of ways to work their character in. If someone wants to start up another campaign while this one is already going on, then they are welcome and able to.
> 
> ...




I like some magic, but not too much.  I don't lke commoners walking around with wands.  
As to your test idea, I have two problems.  One, I don't think that test is completely accurate, since it put me as a gnome paladin   .  Also, I can never seem to get the ability score thing working.  I fill everything out and enter it, but then it doesn't give me stats.
As to multiple campaigns, we only need this if we have to many people for one campaign.


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## Xen155 (Jan 5, 2005)

Well, I think Dyne is corect about the starting gold thing. 

I intend to be a LE Domain Wizard Evoker. I like to have two casters who complement themselves so I think we can have more than one caster,  of course that is my opnion, and an excellent question was asked and im asking the other people who want to play as well as the DMs 
At what pace do we intend to play this campaign?


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## Dyne (Jan 5, 2005)

BoD, I'm thinking you might have a pop-up blocker that blocks the ability scores from coming through. If you use Mozilla Firefox, it has a pop-up blocker built in. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. If you don't want to go by the test, fine. I just thought it'd be interesting to have that as an option.

As to the pace, probably not too fast. I, myself, can only be online for a few hours. I'm sure there will be others who will be interested, but they won't have much time. In that case, if the DM is on at the time when others are on, perhaps the DM could run a few mini-adventures or something for the others. The plot should only progress when everyone is there.

Or, if you mean how fast the plot should progress, or perhaps how fast our characters level up and all that, then I still feel that it should be nice and slow. I'm not very fond of jumping several levels in only a few sessions. For one, it takes me a bit to get used to my new abilities from leveling up. It helps to go up in power at a rather slow rate so that people can get used to things a little bit at a time. That, and I hate the "power creep" of D&D. If the pace of the game went too fast, it could run the danger of becoming a battle just to keep yourself alive. That type of game is fine, I just prefer things nice and slow myself.

Of course, I'm adaptable. A game could run virtually opposite of my idea of the perfect game and I'd still enjoy it if that's what everyone else wanted to do.


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## Stone Angel (Jan 5, 2005)

Well I am no stranger to pushing the pc's and making them choose between being at full strength and making little headway or advancing at a weaker condition. 

But my question is this should not a 20th level fighter equal a 20th level wizard on damage output. Granted their will always be differences. A thief's damage should roughly equal a fighters after a successful sneak attack or so. A monk should be equally effective with his strikes and quivering palm and all his extra abilities. A barbarian probably surpasses and even should surpass the fighter in raw damage capability.

The fighter presented in the dmg versus the wizard in the dmg. The fighter at 20th level can hit another fighter of 20th on average three of his four attacks doing on average about45 points of damage. This can be tweaked of course with a more expensive weapon and an even higher strength. Taking the other fighter in four rounds. If he is lucky and does maximum damage he can do it in three.

The wizard presented doesn't really do any pc wizard justice and it doesn't even peak do to the ecl there but with a few metamagic feats even just a fireball or scorching ray could take down that same fighter in a round or so. Not to mention the collateral damage with the fireball he could do to other combatants. Maybe I have just been skewed by the evil powergamers that makes up my group.

Now I am not saying that this is unfair just curious if anyone has tried to mitigate this or not. That was my only question. The bard says the fact that it is a limited resource is one way the way it is built into the current system. Any others or instances?

The Seraph of Earth and Stone


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## Dyne (Jan 5, 2005)

I'm lucky enough to have good Players in my game. Except for a little metagaming and stupid decisions on the part of the Players, they don't try to powergame.

But, that's my regular group. I'd seen powergaming in other groups, and all of it has been with some kind of spellcaster, mainly the Wizard. I've considered turning the Wizard into a Prestige Class, and forcing a character to advance sufficiently in the Bard or something until he meets the requirements. It would probably be better if some other class was designed like the Bard, however with a different focus. Basically, an apprentice Wizard.

On the ability score test:
I also encountered problems getting my ability scores. This might be because a pop-up displays the results. I tried it in Mozilla Firefox, and it didn't work. I tried it in Internet Explorer, and it still didn't work. Then, I realized that my security settings might be blocking it. So, I adjusted them and tried it again. It didn't work, but then I tried it again and I finally got the results. I'm pretty sure that the settings were blocking it.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 5, 2005)

Following Xen's idea, I'll be a CN orc (not half-orc, full orc) warmage, from Complete Arcane.  Yes, I know an orc gets a charisma penalty, the warmage's main ability score, but I like the abstract stuff.
I agree with Dyne that the game should be slow paced.

P.S.  Dyne, I'll try that thing again.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 5, 2005)

Alright Dyne, I just tried the thing again for a while, and it still isn't working.  I don't think I'll be able to get it running.


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## ender_wiggin (Jan 5, 2005)

I think I might as well join. It couldn't hurt right?

My gaming history:
I'm pretty young; only 16, senior in high school. I started playing a while ago in middle school with one group, but they eventually became druggies and I stopped hanging around with them. For about a year I stopped gaming, and then got back into it with another group; unfortunately, they were all roll-players, and then last year they all went to college, so I was back to square one. I started DMing pbp last summer - the experiences haven't been bad, per se, and I'm a better DM than I thought I would be, but the smaller sites I've DMed on have this curious trend of dying. Why not on Enworld then? Because with 1000+ users online simultaneously, Enworld runs pretty slow on my computer. I thought a smaller site would be better initially, but I guess not. I hear we're getting a faster server soon. Good thing....
I guess that was pretty boring, but if you read it you have a good idea of where I'm at.


Now my first question:
I heard many good DMs tell me that you shouldn't buy too much into your story arc. But in addition to playing Dnd, I write stories. So I'm a narrationist. And there's this plot arc that I've come up with, not in one or two months, but over the course of several years, that I am very very proud of. I guess my life goal as a DM is to see the plot arc played through. Now tell me, how bad is this? (I'll even give you the plot arc; in my opinion it is very good, but you won't be able to play in any of my games...)


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## Xen155 (Jan 5, 2005)

Ah, that is a rather odd char CotDS but I like it! And we will be a magical forc to be reckoned with. 

As to the Question brought up earlier, NO WAY should a 20th Fighter and 20th Wizard be equal in damage output. Im not gonna get into an explination right now (Orange Bowl, GO OU) but no way.

I was refering to both Dyne, slow game sounds fine to me and we should get the people who wants to plays available hours.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 5, 2005)

<double post>


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 5, 2005)

Blade of Desecration said:
			
		

> @CE  A few things...
> 1. What should be alignment spectrum?  Good, Neautral, or Evil?  Or does it not matter?
> 2. How are we doing campaign world?
> 3. As I said before, if we have too many people, we can have more than one campaign, since nobody should be excluded.  The two groups could effect each other, maybe as rivals.
> ...




1) Anything and everything, I want the group to be the same alignment however.

2) I was thinking Forgotten Realms, or an unspecified world. I like FR better , but its alot up to you guys.

3) That is a godo idea. What I want to avoid by being seletive is having a gorup of 10 characters adventuring to gether it kidn of runins the atmosphere for me. Two groups racing for the same item, for instance, could be very fun.

4) ok

5) Like I said non-official WotC stuff goes throught eh DM first. (Who is currently me) That Sorceror variant is good to go if anyone wants to use that.


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## Xen155 (Jan 5, 2005)

Arg this place runs to fast! 

Ok must sprint to catch up, Welcome Wiggin, Im sure Evoker will have the formal greeting soon  

I like a group were there might be one lawful evil and one LG char, it adds spice to the Group.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 5, 2005)

Dyne said:
			
		

> Character gold should be determined by ECL, not character level. That is, if everyone starts off at the same ECL (which it seems like, by the way you put it). It doesn't seem fair that a character gets less gold than everyone else because they decided to choose a race with a LA, especially when LA's can already be brutal.




The party will all be at the same ECL, if we start out higher than one then I will adjust party gold, I guess we coudl hold off equipment until the party is decided.



> I don't think that _anyone_ should be excluded. If we're going along and someone else wants to join in, *bam* they're in. There are plenty of ways to work their character in. If someone wants to start up another campaign while this one is already going on, then they are welcome and able to.




Hmm idk about this one. Those kind of PC's are hard enough to do IRL< on the boards it coudl be....(*laughs evily*) chaos. I dont' want 20 something PCs either. I have limits you know...


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 5, 2005)

ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> I think I might as well join. It couldn't hurt right?
> 
> My gaming history:
> I'm pretty young; only 16, senior in high school. I started playing a while ago in middle school with one group, but they eventually became druggies and I stopped hanging around with them. For about a year I stopped gaming, and then got back into it with another group; unfortunately, they were all roll-players, and then last year they all went to college, so I was back to square one. I started DMing pbp last summer - the experiences haven't been bad, per se, and I'm a better DM than I thought I would be, but the smaller sites I've DMed on have this curious trend of dying. Why not on Enworld then? Because with 1000+ users online simultaneously, Enworld runs pretty slow on my computer. I thought a smaller site would be better initially, but I guess not. I hear we're getting a faster server soon. Good thing....
> ...




Welcome to the DMF!

New Member
ender_wiggin

Whoever told you that ender_wiggin, should never DM...ever.  Seriously though, ignore that advise. Storylien is very important and is an integral part of keeping PC interest.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 5, 2005)

Hey, Wiggin, where's Bean?  
Before we do our characters, everyone should post what they want to be so that no one ends up having to redo their level.

As to my character, I'll be Worky (Wor-kee), the slightly insane orcish warmage, and will be  true neurtral in alignment.  He will be a devout worshipper of Yondalla (don't ask).  He likes rabbits and chipmunks, as well as hamsters (basically anything small and fuzzy).

@CE  If no one disagrees, I do prefer FR to other campaign settings.  Also, I think that if we do two groups, they should at least know of each other, and maybe start out near each other.  Then we can bring any rivalry into play early.  Also, perhaps all evil people should be in one group, with good people in the other, and neutrals mixed evenly between.  Then a rivalry will make a lot of sense, and allow an easier way of sorting groups.

@Xen  We shall rule this miserable world with our armies of feril gerbils!  Mwahahahaha!


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## ender_wiggin (Jan 5, 2005)

Bean is dead. He died early, three thousand years ago. I always wonder what happened to his "children" though.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 5, 2005)

ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> Bean is dead. He died early, three thousand years ago. I always wonder what happened to his "children" though.



They created _Foundation_  .


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## Nightcloak (Jan 5, 2005)

ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> I think I might as well join. It couldn't hurt right?
> 
> My gaming history:
> I'm pretty young; only 16, senior in high school. I started playing a while ago in middle school with one group, but they eventually became druggies and I stopped hanging around with them. For about a year I stopped gaming, and then got back into it with another group; unfortunately, they were all roll-players, and then last year they all went to college, so I was back to square one. I started DMing pbp last summer - the experiences haven't been bad, per se, and I'm a better DM than I thought I would be, but the smaller sites I've DMed on have this curious trend of dying. Why not on Enworld then? Because with 1000+ users online simultaneously, Enworld runs pretty slow on my computer. I thought a smaller site would be better initially, but I guess not. I hear we're getting a faster server soon. Good thing....




Welcome Ender_Wiggin!

And your right, a faster surver is on the way. We had a community drive recently and blew the server goals out of the water. I'm not much into the full technical stuff of servers (when I was in school, 5 inch floppys were new   ) but those who are around here are falling over themselves with excitement so that bodes well   




			
				ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> Now my first question:
> I heard many good DMs tell me that you shouldn't buy too much into your story arc. But in addition to playing Dnd, I write stories. So I'm a narrationist. And there's this plot arc that I've come up with, not in one or two months, but over the course of several years, that I am very very proud of. I guess my life goal as a DM is to see the plot arc played through. Now tell me, how bad is this? (I'll even give you the plot arc; in my opinion it is very good, but you won't be able to play in any of my games...)




Plot arcs are good! Players love a good story that ties everything together. The only campaigns I remember are the ones were the DM told a story worthy of remembering. The problem is you can't railroad the PCs into the story. If you could provide a few specifics it might help, but in general I'd say:

1. Create a story arc but make sure you are prepared for multiple endings as the PCs could very well push things in a completely different direction. You will need to adjust the adventure as you go at specific times.

2. Let the arc evolve naturally. Let the PCs actions stand (and the consequences!) and the campaign world's (BBEG, NPCs, XP fodder) reactions happen intelligently. In other words. If your campaign is a round peg and the story arc is a round hole, be prepared for the PCs to change things into a square hole and the story to adjust. Don't push the campaign, you'll just frustrate the players and yourself. 

3. If the continuity of the story arc can't be adjusted much, then I suggest you hold off and wait till you have DM'd a group for a while and get to know them well enough to predict most of their actions and reactions.

4. If you are still not comfortable with any changes and have weaved a complext tale whose integrity is not to be tampered with, then you may first just want to actually write it out as a story! Because that is what it really is. Don't frustrate yourself when things change. 

But really... who wants that. GREAT STORIES SHOULD BE PLAYED, NOT TOLD


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 5, 2005)

Blade of Desecration said:
			
		

> Hey, Wiggin, where's Bean?
> Before we do our characters, everyone should post what they want to be so that no one ends up having to redo their level.
> 
> As to my character, I'll be Worky (Wor-kee), the slightly insane orcish warmage, and will be  true neurtral in alignment.  He will be a devout worshipper of Yondalla (don't ask).  He likes rabbits and chipmunks, as well as hamsters (basically anything small and fuzzy).
> ...




Lol, this is already becomign interesting....

Um, in the off hand chance that we get like 20 peope wnating to play, I'd liek to have the characters already made.  But I see your point, people might take time to make this char and then not get to play so here's the deal (a compromise)

Post your intended class, race, alignment, deity, and background. Then create your char if you are chosen to play. I want no more than 2 groups of 4-5 PCs.


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## ender_wiggin (Jan 5, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> But really... who wants that. GREAT STORIES SHOULD BE PLAYED, NOT TOLD




Whenever I think to just write as a story, that's what comes to mind. I'm not worried about tampering; I left much of the middle open to whatever the player's want. However, the grand scene is what I'm after. I have a movie clip of the end that plays in my mind - I'm just afraid that if the middle is warped to much it'll spin out of control.

You have an email address? I could give you a plot summary.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 5, 2005)

Alright everyone, gotta go.  See ya' tommorow.  Tommorow I'll do Worky's backround (I've got it all planned out) and get his ability scores.  

@CE  Just on the off chance that we have too many people, I'd be willing to DM a third campaign so that no one is left out (hope it doesn't come to that).  Also, I think the DM's for the campaign should figure out some system of contact so that they can discuss story lines privately and tie everything together.  

P.S.  How many people here have FRCS?


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 5, 2005)

Hmm...I don't like the concept fo Co-DMing but if I have to I will. But we need to start getting some characters posted. (Just a note: I'm also starting a game caleed Avatar of Chaos on the same forum. that is not our campaign. If you want to participate in that game too go right ahead though!) 

ender_wiggin:
You can email me the plot line at

chaosevoker@yahoo.com

if you wish.


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## BSF (Jan 5, 2005)

Stone Angel said:
			
		

> The fighter presented in the dmg versus the wizard in the dmg. The fighter at 20th level can hit another fighter of 20th on average three of his four attacks doing on average about45 points of damage. This can be tweaked of course with a more expensive weapon and an even higher strength. Taking the other fighter in four rounds. If he is lucky and does maximum damage he can do it in three.
> 
> The wizard presented doesn't really do any pc wizard justice and it doesn't even peak do to the ecl there but with a few metamagic feats even just a fireball or scorching ray could take down that same fighter in a round or so. Not to mention the collateral damage with the fireball he could do to other combatants. Maybe I have just been skewed by the evil powergamers that makes up my group.
> 
> ...




Got it!  
My observations are that 3.x is so tightly designed that it is challenging to try to uncouple the rampant damage scale of magic.  The changes that you need to make may begin with the spells, but they surely do not end there.  It is a little more challenging than running a low-magic item game. 

For ideas I would recommend looking at books such as Bad Axe Games' Grim Tales, Mongoose's Conan, possibly Wheel of Time, and maybe Green Ronin's upcoming Blue Rose.  

If I were going to experiment with scaling the power of spells downward, I would probably remove all flashy evocations from the Cleric lists, scale up Sorcerors and Wizards to a d6 HD, give them simple weapons and move evocations to scaling half as effectively.  So, a Fireball would do 1d6/2 levels and max out at 5d6.  I would leave abjurations and basic buffing spells as is.  Necromantic attack spells would be nerfed as well.  The Druid I would exclude from the game initially.  Prestige class the Bard, Paladin, and Ranger.  Or I would flat out remove spellcasting from Paladin & Ranger.  

I'm not sure how well those changes would be received, but it might make for an interesting game.  

Is that closer to what you were looking for?


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## Nightcloak (Jan 5, 2005)

ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> Whenever I think to just write as a story, that's what comes to mind. I'm not worried about tampering; I left much of the middle open to whatever the player's want. However, the grand scene is what I'm after. I have a movie clip of the end that plays in my mind - I'm just afraid that if the middle is warped to much it'll spin out of control.




That's interesting. I tend to build adventures the same. First the vision, then the adventure. Poets cut from the same cloth   

Sounds like you got a good grasp of things. Just be prepared for the PCs actions and how those actions could lead them back to the big "pay-off" of the final event. 

In modern marketing, they say "The customer is not always right, it's our job to make them think they are right." Well, being a story oriented DM means "The players don't need to be in control, it's our job to make them think they are in control."

Moral of the story: Make sure the "middle" eventually nudges them back on path to the last event. Even a side trek if neccessary. 

Just be prepared. PCs can do things out of left field. But that is what make the game great!






> You have an email address? I could give you a plot summary.




Nightcloak

My email (and most of everyone else) is in our public profile. Click on to anyone's name above their avatar to get to their profile.

You don't have to let the cat out of the bag, though, just wanted you to post a few bits so everyone could give you more useful and directed advice.


Edit: Clarified post


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## BSF (Jan 5, 2005)

ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> I think I might as well join. It couldn't hurt right?
> 
> My gaming history:
> I'm pretty young; only 16, senior in high school. I started playing a while ago in middle school with one group, but they eventually became druggies and I stopped hanging around with them.




Good for you!  Don't hang out with people that will drag you into the mire and mess of their lives.  



			
				ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> Now my first question:
> I heard many good DMs tell me that you shouldn't buy too much into your story arc. But in addition to playing Dnd, I write stories. So I'm a narrationist. And there's this plot arc that I've come up with, not in one or two months, but over the course of several years, that I am very very proud of. I guess my life goal as a DM is to see the plot arc played through. Now tell me, how bad is this? (I'll even give you the plot arc; in my opinion it is very good, but you won't be able to play in any of my games...)




Well, there is some truth to this, but it isn't complete advice.  

Nightcloak has good advice.  The core of it is that the PCs should be more important than the story itself.  When you run a game and there is no room for the PCs to change the story, then they are unnecessary.  Would you want to play in a game where you get the feeling that your PC is unneeded?  No matter what you do, x will happen, then y, then z?    What is the difference in reading the story, or running through it on a computer?  

There are different schools of thought on DMing games.  For now, I won't hijack your question by running through them.    But I will say that for my games, my goal is for the players to know the game revolves around their PCs, even when everything in the world doesn't.


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## LilMissKittyn (Jan 5, 2005)

Holy crap, I'm gone for two days and I come back to 4 pages. I'm gonna be in and out till the summer, guys. School and IRL kindof gets in the way.   



			
				ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> Now my first question:
> I heard many good DMs tell me that you shouldn't buy too much into your story arc. But in addition to playing Dnd, I write stories. So I'm a narrationist. And there's this plot arc that I've come up with, not in one or two months, but over the course of several years, that I am very very proud of. I guess my life goal as a DM is to see the plot arc played through. Now tell me, how bad is this? (I'll even give you the plot arc; in my opinion it is very good, but you won't be able to play in any of my games...)




Welcome to Battle School, Andrew. Or is this the Xenocide  era?

About being a writer - Nightcloak is exactly right on this. But you do have to be flexible. (refer to the square hole, round peg analogy).

I write short stories myself. I can't say that they're altogether bad for DMing, since my main problem with creating campaigns is...well...the initial ideas. Beyond that, though, literary imagery can help you a lot to make the experience very real. 

Perhaps, if you rise in favor in the DMF, we can even play out (or begin) your plot arc here. Maybe it's a goal for you to work towards.   

I'll see everyone whenever I have time to spare!


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## Nightcloak (Jan 5, 2005)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> The core of it is that the PCs should be more important than the story itself.  When you run a game and there is no room for the PCs to change the story, then they are unnecessary.  Would you want to play in a game where you get the feeling that your PC is unneeded?  No matter what you do, x will happen, then y, then z?    What is the difference in reading the story, or running through it on a computer?




That is stated perfectly.

You da Bard


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## BSF (Jan 5, 2005)

ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> Whenever I think to just write as a story, that's what comes to mind. I'm not worried about tampering; I left much of the middle open to whatever the player's want. However, the grand scene is what I'm after. I have a movie clip of the end that plays in my mind - I'm just afraid that if the middle is warped to much it'll spin out of control.
> 
> You have an email address? I could give you a plot summary.





Ah!  Many times I have come up with adventures and story arcs based off nothing more than the ending that would be cool.  Just remember that your villians are working toward that end goal.  The PCs are interfering with the *grand plan*, but the goal is still the same.  If you keep that in mind, the middle can warp and twist all sorts of directions and the implementation of the *grand plan* will change to accomodate that.  But the goal is still what the villian is shooting for.  

Of course, your PCs might decide to preempt the goal and move in for the kill early.  These things happen and your grand scene may be difficult to pull off.  But those are the times when I sit back with a big smile at how clever and devoted my players were.


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## Xen155 (Jan 5, 2005)

My Char Will be:
Xen Freeman the Domain Wizard Evocationist.
He will be Lawful Evil
He shall be a follower of Azuth and Mystra, He seeks godhood becuase he believes he deserves it (the reason will be in his history) and holds a small amount of hate in his heart for both Paladins AND Black Guards (also in history). He would kill a child without hesitation but would hesitate in killing an ally (or one of his few freinds). In the meantime, while he reaches for his godhood he is willing to work for or with others to make his way in mortal life.

@CotDS- Yes...Yes... gerbils........


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## themind (Jan 5, 2005)

Sign me up for this.  I could always use help and always willing to help if I can.

I've played for about 5 years now, DMed for about a year.  Mostly I do little published adventures with my friends.  Currently I run the Maure Castle adventure found in Dungeon Magazine off and on with my friends.  Also, I run a modified Eberron game with a group of friends at a game shop every Sunday.

I'll explain more about this Eberron game when I'm not falling a sleep at my keyboard.


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## ender_wiggin (Jan 5, 2005)

Well if you want a few specifics, here's some information that doesn't reveal anything:

There's a secret society in the homebrew world that uses a unique two-swords-in-one-scabbard style. Because they are pretty central to the plot, a problem came up in my design - how do get a PC involved?

--> I could change the fighting style to suit the PC, but I created it specifically so that the weapons used would be somewhat unique and interesting, like have sort of an archaic feeling to them. It wouldn't be as cool, if it was like sword and shield. The thing is, two weapon fighting requires all these requisite feats _beforehand_.
SPOILER

--> Now, I like this solution a lot. This secret organization, I thought, has two levels. One is fake, the other real. Now, the "fake" organization _think_ they are real, and they are much closer to the public, they show their faces a lot, etc, etc and aren't nearly as clandestine as the "real organization", which is millenia old. This is an interesting way to snatch a PC at lowers levels, getting him to join and take a few two-weapon fighting feats, and then reveal to him that he hasn't joined anything important at a higher level. Because he's already on that training track, it's likely he will seek out the real organization and get the plot rolling for real. But still, this isn't good enough. 

ENDSPOILER

--> I could, if I got really desperate, talk to a PC OOC about it. That would be really really bad and I hope I wouldn't have to resort to that.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 5, 2005)

@ Ender_Wiggins

On Two weapon style: You could offer an in game incentive for players to pick this style. Or better, you could offer incentives for several styles and then target the player who picked your choosen style for the story. Incentives could be a special magic weapon for each style that is better than what the players could by at their starting level. 


[sblock]As far as the hidden organization. If you are worried that the player will not go for the real group then you might want to reverse it and have the secret organization seek out the player: "Ah, mighty warrior. We have noted your progress through our front organization. It is little more than a training ground to seperate the mighty heros such as yourself from the usual rabble. Congrats on passing our tests. We need to talk now..."[/sblock]


Hope that helps. Off to work.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 5, 2005)

@ Nightcloak about his spoiler in the previous post:
[sblock]OH man that sounds like Half-Life. "You have done well Mr. Freeman......."[/sblock]

New Member!
themind

@The Oldies
[sblock]hmm...themind....does that remind you of anyone?[/sblock]


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 5, 2005)

@CE  Yeah, it does, doesn't it? (By the way, I still can't figure out how to do those spoiler things, so how do you do it?)

@Xen  I think I'll have a gerbil familiar...


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 5, 2005)

@BoD
Do spoilers by using the {sblock} tag. Close it by typing {/sblock}.

(That is of course: replaceing all the {} with [])


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 6, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> @BoD
> Do spoilers by using the {sblock} tag. Close it by typing {/sblock}.
> 
> (That is of course: replaceing all the {} with [])



@CE  [sblock] Thanks. [/sblock]


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## Dyne (Jan 6, 2005)

My character is a Human Lawful Good Paladin who is actually slightly more Neutral then Lawful, according to the test, but he is _very_ honor-bound and honest. His philosophy is that it is better to build up than to destroy, but it is necessary to defend what you have worked so hard on from those who would destroy it. He enjoys the simple things and would rather give to the poor than to amass wealth. He uses his abilities to defend himself and to help others. He constantly doubts his abilities, however, and he is always trying to improve himself physically and mentally.

The test actually said I was a Half-Orc. The Ability Score test, however, gave me a high Intelligence, an above-average Charisma, and not a very high Strength score. Since my abilities would contradict my race, and since my idea of my character is nothing like a Half-Orc, I'll make him a Human instead.

Here are my abilities:
Strength: 11
Dexterity: 13
Constitution: 13
Intelligence: 15
Wisdom: 13
Charisma: 12

Note: These are my results from the test.

EDIT: Put my Strength score in.

Blade of Desecration
[sblock]If you can't get your stats, you could send me the answers and I'd get the results for you.[/sblock]


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 6, 2005)

According to that test I am a Human Wizard with the following stats:
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 13
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 14

gotta admit, that's not bad. I wouldn't mind playing that char.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 6, 2005)

@ Chaos Evoker: 

[sblock]You know, I've never played Half-Life. But the relationship to my comments on EWs post has me intrigued. Is it any good?[/sblock]


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## Xen155 (Jan 6, 2005)

The char tester said i was an:
Elf: 6.8
Cleric: 23.1
Lawful: 21.4
Evil: 44.1.....huh

Meh, its pretty cool, but I just awsome we play whatever we want to.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 6, 2005)

@Nightcloak
[sblock]It's awesome, Half-Life 2 is better. But I mean, when there such a huge difference in time an technology between games that's to be expected. I would say both games are worth your money but half life 1 is REALLY hard. Way harder than HL2. Keep in mind that HL2 will make pretty much no sence if you haven't played HL1[/sblock]

@Test
I begin to wonder, the first tiem I took that test it said I was a NG Gnome Bard. NG alignemtn I'm fine with. But, I HATE GNOMES AND BARDS!!! I almsot cvonsidered trying to hack in and screw up the test after that. But decided against it. After taking the test again I was a NG Human Wizard which is awesome. Yeah I did have some different answers though. Anyways....

@Campaign
I'm not seeing anyone posting characters. Is no one interested or is RL just getting in the way right now?

@New Topic (which I'm creating right now)
What do you think the Pros/Cons are of D&D 1E, 2E, 3E, and 3.5E? What do you think still needs to be worked on or altered to make the game better/more realistic? What did you like beter in previous versions and what did you liek about the more recent ones? That should get some discussion going here.


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## LilMissKittyn (Jan 6, 2005)

Yeah, the posts are slowing down a bit. The new topic might help.

About the stats:
I'm not so sure I put a lot of stock in the tests either. The personality (I'd like to convince myself) is awfully close, though I might be more of a bard than a paladin. The stats test...well, let's just put it this way. I'd like to think my stats are higher than an average of 11. Maybe I'll retake it.   

About the campaign: 
I'll join if I can. Let me see about time.


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## BSF (Jan 6, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> @Campaign
> I'm not seeing anyone posting characters. Is no one interested or is RL just getting in the way right now?



  Sorry man, I run one game and play in another.  Between posts, logs, and minimal game prep, I don't have much more time to join a game.  



			
				ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> @New Topic (which I'm creating right now)
> What do you think the Pros/Cons are of D&D 1E, 2E, 3E, and 3.5E? What do you think still needs to be worked on or altered to make the game better/more realistic? What did you like beter in previous versions and what did you liek about the more recent ones? That should get some discussion going here.




This is an interesting question.  I really think the game has improved with each revision.  I don't necessarily want more realistic, I want the game to be better playable.  

I like the depth of detail that you can get into when creating a character.  I appreciate the subtleties of tweaking a character build to accomodate unusual development.  I do a pretty decent job juggling variables during combat and I am able to resolve my actions reasonably quickly.  I am able to do the same with most of the NPCs when I DM.  

But that isn't for everyone.  Not everyone enjoys the same things I do.

I enjoy the HERO system and I used to be able to build decent characters straight out of my head.  So keep in mind that I have that sort of mentality.  The bookkeeping is one of the things that puts people off HERO.  With a modular, open-ended system, you have a lot of options.  That being said, I think DnD could stand to take a little more from the HERO system, but not in the bookkeeping aspects.  One of the things HERO does well is label problematic powers and present reasons why you might want to exclude them from your game.  I would like to see books like the DMG go through the process of helping DMs understand how to adjust the power level of their campaigns.  Label potentially problematic spells and powers and teach the DM how to decide what belongs in their games.  

DnD still needs a very solid resource to help budding DMs improve rapidly.  We need a DM fast track plan.  The advantage to that groundwork is that experienced DMs would also be able to quickly peruse the guidelines and warnings and put together a campaign that suits their campaigns.  

Maybe the new DMGII will have some of this and can fill that niche.  We will see.

As for what was better about previous editions, that is a difficult question for me.  The simplicity and open-endedness was nice because it could keep things moving fast.  But the codified rules in current editions keep rules interpretation bickering down.  (Or maybe the gamers I game with are less likely to devolve into bickering?)  It is hard for me to really say what was better because it is difficult to take off the glasses of nostalgia.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 7, 2005)

I didn't see too many problems with 2e except for some confusion about when a negative mod was a good thing or a bad thing. Players Option was a good idea but a massive disaster in practice. 3.0 cleared a lot of the rules up, but still had some problems with balance. 3.5 is much better, even if power creep has gotten a little out of hand. I don't have so much of a problem with the power creep (even if other do) because I decide what I let in my game (and I have players who trust me).

I don't see enough problems with 3.5 to warrant another edition any time soon. I see a lot of people on the WotC boards complaining about 3.5, but I don't think many of them are really doing thier jobs as DMs.


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## Piratecat (Jan 7, 2005)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> I don't see enough problems with 3.5 to warrant another edition any time soon.




I think the inevitable approach of another edition and the gaming-related _need_ for such a thing is relatively unrelated. More accurately, the next edition will occur in order to provide a continuing income stream for WotC. That's not necessarily a problem -- what's good for them is good for the industry -- so long as they take as much care on it as they originally did with 3e.


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## Imret (Jan 7, 2005)

Yikes. Lack access to ENWorld for a few days and there's like 5 pages of posts I didn't catch. So, let's see...

1) DM Foundation campaign. Cool idea, certainly. Sad thing is, my personal computer isn't networked right now, so I can't jump in and say "Yes! Gaming! After months of nothing, gaming!!"...sorry, was that desperate?  If I get connected in time, I could be available. Concepts vary as to if it's FR or some other setting.

2) Benefits of old vs. new editions; hmmm. 1st Edition had simplicity going for it, and 2nd edition had....okay, I admit it. I hated 2nd Edition with a passion, but it was D&D. I played it, but I didn't really like much about it. 3.x, however, seems to be pretty much everything I want...except for 3.5 DR. And possibly other things...sitting down with the 3.0 and 3.5 books and finding all the differences sounds like a nightmare. Anybody done it? 

3) The Test. True Neutral Human Sorceror, though very close to Neutral Evil. But I knew that.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 7, 2005)

Alright, I'm back.

Campaign characters:  I need to see what exact level we'll be before I post, so other people need to post what they will be (CE, maybe you could make a post with a compilation of what everyone so far has said they will be).  Also, I want to do my character history at the same time, so I need to know what our CS is gonna' be.  Are we using FR, Eberron, homebrew, what?

Topic:  The only 2nd edition I've played was on the comp games (BG, BG2, IWD), so I don't really have any opinion.  Especially since how they explain the 2nd edition rules makes no sense, and even after owning the games for many years I still don't understand half of it.


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## LilMissKittyn (Jan 7, 2005)

Just a note: will post char tomorrow or early Sat. morning. However, since I'm STILL not very familiar with the game, you'll have to excuse me when I make mistakes (and CE will let me know about them, I'm sure). I'm gonna go buy a player's guide tomorrow. So starts the endless collection of D&D books.


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## Dyne (Jan 7, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> @Nightcloak
> [sblock]It's awesome, Half-Life 2 is better. But I mean, when there such a huge difference in time an technology between games that's to be expected. I would say both games are worth your money but half life 1 is REALLY hard. Way harder than HL2. Keep in mind that HL2 will make pretty much no sence if you haven't played HL1[/sblock]
> 
> @Test
> ...




@Test
That's nothing. It told me that I was a Half-Elf once. I had about the same reaction as you did, if you catch my meaning (IFWG inside joke). I originally had no problems with Half-Elves. In fact, before I got into D&D, I found the concept interesting, and I often played as them in D&Distic video games. Then I got 3rd Edition, and I found the race completely worthless. Then, I met a Half-Elf that I particularly do not like.

Now, the test almost always says I'm a Half-Orc. I don't really mind that, in fact, one of my best friends plays as a Half-Orc Barbarian. But, then, my ability score results are the opposite of a Half-Orc, and I think my personality is closer to an Elf or a Dwarf. Two completely different races, I know.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 7, 2005)

I really think I'm closer to a dwarf myself.  I mean, I'm anti-social to the extreme and have an abstract sense of humor.  That and I'm short and stocky.  If I had a beard yet, I'd be exactly like one.


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## Dyne (Jan 7, 2005)

Whoops, missed the new topic:
General D&D:
It's not realistic enough for my tastes. And I'm not sure if it's streamlined enough yet. One of the things that totally confused all of my Players when they first learned how to play was how Ability Scores worked. It's confusing to have to tell the difference between a modifier to the ability and a modifier derived from the ability. I don't see why they don't just abolish the ability scores and just go with ability modifiers. That would clear things up a lot more if a difference of 1 point actually made a difference for more than half the time.

Also, D&D depends too much on magic. Magic is no longer a mysterious thing in the background that adds interest to the game. It's something that the whole game revolves around, and if a character isn't totally immersed in magic, he won't stand a chance at higher levels.

I've played in 3.0 and 3.5, and I don't see 3.5 as a huge improvement. Magic was cleaned up a bit, but the classes didn't really change much except some got more abilities. A few things were cleared up here and there, but what REALLY gets me is why they decided to use stupid miniature pictures for the combat section. Since all of them are colored red (because they hadn't been painted yet), they all looked pretty much the same to me. Some of the things in the combat section disappoint me, such as the revision to Cover, and especially how to Sunder an item.

I just like to mix and match the rulesets, as well as tweak some of the rules myself.

I enjoy the game, but it was very clunky and difficult to handle when I first started. After visiting WotC boards, my problems with the rules have multiplied incredibly.

I'd rather the game be simpler while providing a ton of options, be more true to the LotR races, as well as provide a LOT more help for adventures and campaigns. Few people can create an adventure and run it well. It took a lot of experience and the crashing of a campaign before I got even decent at it, and I'm still not sure in my abilities as a DM. I just think too many people will hear the reputation of the game, coupled with the complex rules and the difficulty of even running a game, and most won't bother. These are, I think, some serious problems for attracting customers.

EDIT: Short... blunt... simple... short... blunt... simple....


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## BSF (Jan 7, 2005)

Heh DR is such a sticking point for many people.  Personally, I love 3.5 DR.  And no, I have not yet to seen a PC with a golfbag of weapons to overcome it.


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## Evilhalfling (Jan 7, 2005)

It took me a while to wrap my head around the foundation.  It seemed like the rest of EnWorld 
in purpose, but also a way for friends to keep in closer contact. 
but I kept reading and intresting topics kept coming up, so sign me up. 


about the campaign - Im intrested but have questions.
why not a point buy for stats instead of dice roller? 
The test said I was a Neutral 1/2elven wizard, but we have enough of those already. 

Im thinking of playing 
Cassie Doorward:  female NG gnome ranger who is just setting out from home.  I was stricken with wanderlust from a young age, despite my parents wish for me to continue the line of fine embroidery.  I still carry samples and always have a project to work on.   I have so far had little experiance with violence, but hunting and skinning has given me a strong tolerance for the results.   My weapon of choice will be either a small longbow or hookhammer, depending on party needs.
btw - I am a male player, this is just a female char concept.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 7, 2005)

New Member!
Evilhalfling

Welcome to the DMF!

@Evilhalfling
I believe I said earlier (though I didn't take the time to look so I could be wrong) that dice rolling stats was optional, that if you do use point buy use STANDARD point buy (25 points I believe) I look forward to seeing oyur character.

@Campaign
I'd like to remind all of you who are interested that you need to post your characters at the thread of the camapaign (there is a link a few pages back) I'm actually hoping we get enough for two groups, one good one evil who will race to get some item. (one can set traps for another and such, a dungeon that evolves.....)

@Topic
I like everything aobut 3.5. They've managed to clarify alot, and also to remove alot of the loopholes that allowed people to make overly powerful characters while still following the rules. I particularly like how they reworked damage reduction with one exception. DR should sitll go up by pluses in the magic DR. Like they should have DR 5/magic +1 or DR 5/magic +3 you get the idea.

EVOKER OUT


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## Evilhalfling (Jan 7, 2005)

Nvrmind - I found the link in the playing the game forum.
according to the FAQ for post games the DM normally rolls all the dice.
It seems like that would be faster than the dice roller.   anyone have objections? 
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=112923


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 7, 2005)

Actually, I know one incredible loophole I discovered...
In the _SS_ book, there is an item called _amulet of natural weapons_.  It allows you to add magic, such as flaming, to your natural weapons.  The amulet costs as much as the normal EEB plus 600 GP for the amulet.
In the _Underdark_ book, there is the sizing quality, which allows you to change the size (small, medium, etc.).    
Stick these on your fists, and upgrade to collossal, and your fists do something like 4d6 without penalty.    
Of course, I would never let my PCs do this.


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## BSF (Jan 7, 2005)

Well, those are features found outside the Core books.  Once you start straying from the Core books, you have many, many potential issues to watch out for.   Mind you, at last count I allow material from at least 28 different books in my current campaign.  Not all the material, but some of it.  As well, the number has increased in the last several months.  So I am not saying that you shouldn't include non-core material, I'm just saying that once you stray beyond the core, you accept more responsibility for maintaining decent balance within your game.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 8, 2005)

Well, my group stays with core and a few other books.  We do use some of the other books, like the complete books, but I have a tendency of placing limits on about everything, tweaking rules, etc.  For instance, in my campaign, instead of base AC and spell DC of 10, you roll for it when attacked or you cast the spell.  This, I feel, is far more realistic, since you won't dodge as well every time, and you won't cast as well every time, so there is the cahnce that even a goblin can hit a level 10 fighter.  Or it can make you better, depending on the roll.


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## Imret (Jan 8, 2005)

Is there anybody out there? Let's see if I can get a new something going on out here.

Do what degree is your campaign setting worked out? Who uses published settings? Who writes their own in broad strokes as the players need it? Who, like myself, is probably addicted to the process, loves detail, and violates the rule of Dungeoncraft that states "Never force yourself to create more than you must" - thus fashioning most of a world before the campaign ever starts?

Don't want to hijack things or anything but...come on, we were on the second page when I got here.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 8, 2005)

Vacations must be over.


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## deClench (Jan 9, 2005)

*Here I come!*

Great thread!  To diseminate DMing experience is a positive goal in my book.  As I'm fairly new  at DMing, I am especially interested in learning how to do it better.  I'll join into the mix.

For good and ill, I DM sporadically in my group as there are multiple DMs.  It's good because it gives you break to mentally reload as a PC for a while between DMing chores and gives more leeway to the intrusion of RL.  It's bad as it can damage continuity and puts pressure (perhaps imagined) from the more experienced DMs in the group.


1) I believe it was ender_wiggin that brought up the topic of the storyline of the campaign as a whole.  So my question  based on that is how do you find that middle ground between planning everything out to the point that PCs don't have choices and the reverse where there is no overlying theme/goal where everything is no better than a random encounter.

My tendency is tp plan everything out, but wind-up railroading PCs into actions.  Somebody mentioned creating the illusion that PCs have choice and control, but how do you do this effectively as a DM?  With the corollary being, how do you prepare for the PC choices that you're simply not prepared for?  I want a complex environment with an appropriate level choice and interaction for my players.  How?  Do I have to spend a painstaking month planning out every contingency to every choice?  And still maintain an overlying theme?


2) Also, I try to be experimental in my DMing to see what works and what does not.  For instance, trying to actually create a scary environment which is hard to do in D&D when the big question on the PCs mind is more likely, "In what flashy way do I kill this [fill in the monster] THIS time."  

One way I've toyed with is the villain encounter that the PCs cannot hope to win and better run away fast.  How can you do this though and not be a killer DM?  If they're not accustomed to running from battles, this is a sure way to kill at least one PC if not have a TPK.


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## Y.O.Morales (Jan 9, 2005)

It surely sucks to start the new year without a computer, so I havent got the chance to catch-up with this thread. Regarding a place to host the DMF, here are some suggestions:



> Posted by LilMissKittyn:
> I'm not sure how much hosting a website costs



Doteasy has a moneyfree, adfree hosting service that is excellent (my brother's company website resides with them). However, the website entitles a charge when you have to use advanced (dynamic) scripting languages such as PHP.
Another free option could be Tripod's free pages, which feature a cgi-bin.



> Also posted by LilMissKittyn:
> Possibility for hosted forums.



Well, back on March 2004 (or around), I bought an ENWorld Hosted Forum which I never used. I didn't mind about claiming the money or the forum later as I thought of the 'unused' fee as some sort of donation to ENWorld. But now that this Forum Account may have a use (for the DMF), then I'm willing to talk with Morrus to finally prepare that unused account.

*To Morrus or the Mods:*
E-mail me at yamirpr@hotmail.com for any question, comment, or additional fee solicitation.



> Posted by Pbartender
> If you're interested, I'd like to extend an invitation to all of you to the Rat Bastard DM's Club.



Thanks!

*So, if the other members agree with having the DMF in an separate ENForum, then I'm more than happy to grant the first year's hosting charge.*


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## Y.O.Morales (Jan 9, 2005)

By the way, I'm thinking of doing some variant rules based on *Unearthed Arcana*'s variants. Does anybody know of a SRD for this book (or other editable file with its OGC)?


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## Imret (Jan 9, 2005)

Since it's not my official task, deClench, I can't welcome you to the Foundation, but I can review your questions in brief, as I must leave for work soon.

1) A great tool to keep things going where you want them, IMXP, is to not write it like a story; write it like you're playing. Jot down the major NPC's involved in the adventure, what they want, and what resources they have to get that; consider also the local power groups that aren't directly involved. Figure out the steps those NPC's need to take to get their goals completed, and give the PC's an initiatory event; a murder, a raid, a kidnapping, a request for their aid, whatever is most appropriate. Have the other events go on "off-screen", and regardless of their weird choices, they'll eventually get involved in the events they keep hearing about.

2) For giving them a dangerous experience, start a session by letting them know, "From here on out, not every battle you can win. Some will be potentially dangerous, even fatal, to some or all of you if you fail to see when to run. Not everything in the living world around you is balanced for your group's CR requirements", or words to that effect. This is best at the start of a new adventure or campaign, but can be introduced by DM fiat at any point. And if they ignore your advice, pull no punches. Kill some or all of them. They'll learn fast.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 9, 2005)

Imret said:
			
		

> Is there anybody out there? Let's see if I can get a new something going on out here.




Finally back! SBC has been down in my little part of West MI for several days.   

Anywho, good to be plugged back in…





> Do what degree is your campaign setting worked out? Who uses published settings? Who writes their own in broad strokes as the players need it? Who, like myself, is probably addicted to the process, loves detail, and violates the rule of Dungeoncraft that states "Never force yourself to create more than you must" - thus fashioning most of a world before the campaign ever starts?




That's me. I violate the Dungeoncraft rule to the first degree. I over create whatever hits my fancy. I combine rules. I add, subtract, mix, shake but not stirred...

I'm on break for my regular campaign while I update  my current homebrew. It combines 3.0 with 3.5 and heavy on Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. I'm a firm believer that the world should dictate the rules. Or in modern gamer jargon: Let the fluff dictate the crunch. The term fluff should be taken in context (side rant)

That means the flavor of my campaign has dictated the use for core classes from MCAU with a few 3.5. Races from MCAU and 3.0 with "Exotic Races" like half-undead and half fey. I also have some exotic classes that are only allowable from specific regions (like the Corrupter from Dragon or the Seer from The Le Games) throw retooled prestige classes to fit the regions of my world and prestige races unlocked from rituals to the combat manuvers from BoIM and…       and…

Deep Breath.

Let me re-answer your question by saying: yes


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## Nightcloak (Jan 9, 2005)

To deClench

Chaos Evoker is the official door man but just in case he's buried in his game tonight     I'll just push the council member role and give you a big hello and welcome until he shows up to make it official.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 9, 2005)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> It took me a while to wrap my head around the foundation.  It seemed like the rest of EnWorld in purpose, but also a way for friends to keep in closer contact.
> but I kept reading and intresting topics kept coming up, so sign me up.




 His eyes are wide open!

 

Sorry, couldn’t resist. Apologies to Star Trek and the Evilhalfling

I'm such a geek at times…

Welcome!


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 9, 2005)

New Member!
deClench

Welcome to the DMF!

Sorry for my absence guys I've been busy! I've had a friend over here...

@Y.O.
moving to a different EN Forum...? Where woudl we move to? OR is this about the website? Maybe i'm confused.....

EVOKER OUT


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## Nightcloak (Jan 9, 2005)

deClench said:
			
		

> 1) I believe it was ender_wiggin that brought up the topic of the storyline of the campaign as a whole.  So my question  based on that is how do you find that middle ground between planning everything out to the point that PCs don't have choices and the reverse where there is no overlying theme/goal where everything is no better than a random encounter.
> 
> My tendency is tp plan everything out, but wind-up railroading PCs into actions.  Somebody mentioned creating the illusion that PCs have choice and control, but how do you do this effectively as a DM?  With the corollary being, how do you prepare for the PC choices that you're simply not prepared for?  I want a complex environment with an appropriate level choice and interaction for my players.  How?  Do I have to spend a painstaking month planning out every contingency to every choice?  And still maintain an overlying theme?




The problem with _writing adventures _ based on a defined story is that you are writing adventures based on a _defined story_. It’s your story and that shuts the PCs out of it. It needs to be their story also. They will enjoy themselves more and frustrate you less.

If it’s your desire to have a specific event that culminates the adventure then the best advice I can give is wait until you have played with the group you are in for a while so you get to know the players and how they game. Being able to predict the reactions of your group will go a long way towards helping you plan the adventure. That is the illusion of control I mentioned earlier. Besides, if your story line is that complex then that means you’ve invested a lot of time into it. It will be worth the wait to get it done right instead of having your player’s trash your vision (insert image of B.A. from KotDT banging his head onto the table).

You should not plan every encounter so much as plan the actions and personalities of the major NPCs and most importantly the BBEG. Let them react to the actions of the PC’s based on the profiles you gave them. Let your vision help guide the reactions of the NPCs to nudge thing along when possible. Don’t forget that the NPCs are not you and can make mistakes – which is also another way to redirect the PCs with clues.  Don't spend months planning every possibility, spend a week creating the framework then plan the encounters between each game session based on what you think the NPCs would do.

Finally, nothing beats experience. Keep DMing. Practice will fine tune your style to fit you.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 9, 2005)

deClench said:
			
		

> 2) Also, I try to be experimental in my DMing to see what works and what does not.  For instance, trying to actually create a scary environment which is hard to do in D&D when the big question on the PCs mind is more likely, "In what flashy way do I kill this [fill in the monster] THIS time."
> 
> One way I've toyed with is the villain encounter that the PCs cannot hope to win and better run away fast.  How can you do this though and not be a killer DM?  If they're not accustomed to running from battles, this is a sure way to kill at least one PC if not have a TPK.




What is on the PCs minds can be shaped by you by the use of "flavor text" to focus the PCs attention. What the PCs experience is what you describe to them. A scary environment is about what you feel. Here are some ideas to hopefully help you in the right direction:

1.	Scene one: The PC is in his inn as a storm blows outside. If a PC looks outside through a window, you describe the scene: “Its hard to see as the gale blows sheets of rain across the window blurring the outside world as if you were looking through a portal to another world, similar to how ghosts in the ethereal see you. You distinctly see your image reflected back at you, but the rain running down the window distorts your own face into something hideous.”

2.	Scene two: The PCs are in the wilderness and yet another storm creeps up upon them. You tell the PC on guard: “A blast of wind chills your spine and kills the flames of your fire. You are alone in the dark. Suddenly there is a flash of lightning and you see a dozen elven children with grim but sad faces surrounding you. They act in unison to raise their little hands and point a finger at you. The flash is gone and you are alone again in the dark. The wind dies giving renewed life to you fire. You can see again but you are indeed alone and now one is around.

3.	Here’s a favorite: when the PCs are in a dungeon and the close a door: “The door must have been weighted. It escapes your fingers and slams against the wall. Closing you in with the heavy sound of a tomb closing for the last time.”

Set the mood. You don’t have to be too specific. Let the characters imagination do that for you. They will think of things that scare themselves for you. 

We need to get Mordmorgan the Mad in on this conversation. He runs a Ravenloft game, granddaddy of horror style D&D games. 

Hope all of this helps/inspires you!


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, I'm back.  Just finished my gaming session for the day (well technically, since one player had to leave early, we just played for an hour then played Halo 2 for anonther four).  Greetings, all new members!


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## Imret (Jan 9, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> I'm a firm believer that the world should dictate the rules. Or in modern gamer jargon: Let the fluff dictate the crunch.




Absolutely, though I'm also comfortable working in reverse; finding a good crunchy bit and making a portion of the world to fit it. The fact my massive homebrew is not intended for publication means I've abandoned the concept of keeping it OGL. I pillage prestige classes, core classes, monsters, spells, artifacts, etc. from anywhere and everywhere, then re-write fluffy world bits to fit my own vision. Or at least, that's how Lanuth, what I'd call my 
"primary" world, goes.

Still hammering out one set entirely below ground after a cataclysmic planar invasion (I know, it's a bit of cliche...but tell that to the still-shaken elvish survivors of the Reunification Wars) and the Terran Republic. Not actually a D20 game, because ablative hit points don't work for my vision, but it's a homebrew; a little bit Aliens, a little bit Starship Troopers, a little bit Wing Commander, and a big chunk of Halo. Because futuristic military campaigns are cool. 

Three homebrews? THAT'S an addict.


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## deClench (Jan 9, 2005)

@Imret & Nightcloak
Thanks.  Lots to think about.  I've been doing this by writing stories while I should just be writing characters.  I'm gonna try this out.  And instead of worrying about some grand theme, I'll make it more episodic -- a series of vignettes.  I think it'll actually take much of the pressure off of me.  It always seemed nearly overwhelming, but that's likely because I simply planned too much and then became desparate when the PCs did something contrary to expectations.  Hmmm...

I've wanted to run a pure (or mostly) city campaign for a while -- ooh, ooh a HORROR city campaign!  Does anyone else try to work elements of horror into their campaigns?  I've tried to bring in some aspects of CoC and Ravenloft (to a lesser extent) for spice with a mixture of results.  How do you guys do it (if at all)?  The flavor text (from Nightcloak) is something I'm ashamed to admit I almost always overlook and greatly neglect: that will be remedied.  What else?

Aside, I'm getting great ideas just as I'm writing this stuff down.  "Then keep it up deClench."  "Thank you, I will."   

What about mystery?  That's another element I'd love to play more with.  Surely mystery must play a larger role in many campaigns than horror.  Any tricks on doing that well?

So far: episodic city campaign featuring the horrific and mysterious (exemplified by ghost stories & murder mysteries).


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## Darkness (Jan 9, 2005)

Y.O.Morales said:
			
		

> *To Morrus or the Mods:*[/b]



 That'd be Morrus. I doubt he reads this thread, though.


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## Lady Firehawk (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, well, well... I think I finally get to DM tomorrow, and I'm completely dreading it because I tend to tie up at crucial moments and I kinda have to think about what I say before I say it... please remind me to kill my friends when it's over.


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## derbacher (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, I've finally gotten through the twenty pages of posts, so sign me up. A quick background:

I've been playing since the White Box  D&D rules (that means I'm old...    )
I still own just about every first edition AD&D book printed. Loved the detail, but figureing out all the permutations of rules was a bear, since, lets face it, these books were just not very well structered to allow ease of use! But I loved the game, and then second edition came out...

And I refused to spend the money on it (I was a starving college student at the time). "Who needs a new version? Everything is the same, just re-packaged, right?  Right?"

Advance quite a few years, hadn't played in about 5 years, and discovered 3.0. My children are of an age where this could be a wonderful new experience, so I go buy 10 3.0 books (core books, splat books, various Planes and Psionics books). I find the wealth of info on the web, and find that 3.0 is going to become 3.5 in just three months! (Who needs a new version? Everything is the same, just re-packaged, right?  Right?") But this time, thanks to good advice and reading some great posts on the web, I take the plunge and buy the 3.5 core books...

And I love them! Better balance, problems fixed, just great. I currently run two games, a Greyhawk world with my two kids and two of their friends, and an Eberron campaign with three of the "old schoolers" like myself who like the whole "film noire" feeling of the new setting.

I've rambled long enough for one Sunday morning.   Long live the DMF!


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## Nightcloak (Jan 9, 2005)

derbacher said:
			
		

> I've been playing since the White Box  D&D rules (that means I'm old...    )




Your not the only one around here, I started the same time but really cut my teeth on the red box.




> But I loved the game, and then second edition came out...
> 
> And I refused to spend the money on it (I was a starving college student at the time). "Who needs a new version? Everything is the same, just re-packaged, right?  Right?"
> 
> find that 3.0 is going to become 3.5 in just three months! (Who needs a new version? Everything is the same, just re-packaged, right?  Right?")




Testify and be healed! 

Ah... Went throught the same thing.





> I've rambled long enough for one Sunday morning.   Long live the DMF!




It ain't a ramble when it's about the game 

and welcome! It's great to have another quarter-century gamer around


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## Nightcloak (Jan 9, 2005)

deClench said:
			
		

> @Imret & Nightcloak
> I've wanted to run a pure (or mostly) city campaign for a while -- ooh, ooh a HORROR city campaign!  Does anyone else try to work elements of horror into their campaigns?  I've tried to bring in some aspects of CoC and Ravenloft (to a lesser extent) for spice with a mixture of results.




If you can, check out the Freeport line by Green Ronin. You can find some great reviews here at ENWorld. Freeport is a pirate based city adventure with elements of CoC.  It could be a source of great information/insperation for you. 




> How do you guys do it (if at all)?  The flavor text
> is something I'm ashamed to admit I almost always overlook and greatly neglect: that will be remedied.  What else?





Actually, my group usually balks at Ravenloft now. To many bad experiences   
So I bring it to them via mood and flavor in a particular adventure if needed. 

In the heat of combat and a long game session I would forget "flavor" goals too. Like flavor text and other elements like describling sounds, tastes, and the like. For a while I just wrote myself a note on a stick note and placed it on my side of the DM screen so only I could see it. Helped a lot and no one else new I was coaching myself. Eventually it just became more of a habit.




> What about mystery?  That's another element I'd love to play more with.  Surely mystery must play a larger role in many campaigns than horror.  Any tricks on doing that well?
> 
> So far: episodic city campaign featuring the horrific and mysterious (exemplified by ghost stories & murder mysteries).




Sorry, haven't done mysteries much. What I can say is be prepared for the PCs to use divinations to get the info they need. Don't discourage that or thwart it (after all, they earned the cool abilities and should be able to use them), just be prepared for it. A good trick is for it to answer some questions but lead to more questions, after all, divinations are usually vague. Like the answer implies many directions the characters could take. The PCs will need to gather more clues to get the specific divination they need, but by then... well the divination got them to the right place but then the mystery is on top of them. 

The great thing about half answers is that the PCs will use their imaginations to fill in the rest (and that can be great in a horror based game).

Sound like a great game in the making, keep us posted on what happens!


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## Nightcloak (Jan 9, 2005)

Imret said:
			
		

> Absolutely, though I'm also comfortable working in reverse; finding a good crunchy bit and making a portion of the world to fit it. The fact my massive homebrew is not intended for publication means I've abandoned the concept of keeping it OGL. I pillage prestige classes, core classes, monsters, spells, artifacts, etc. from anywhere and everywhere, then re-write fluffy world bits to fit my own vision. Or at least, that's how Lanuth, what I'd call my "primary" world, goes.




Despite my retoric above, I'm guilty of this as well. Sometimes the sweet siren song of a great new mechanic can not be resisted. The Book of Iron Might did this to me. I found myself itching to put just about eveything into the game...

I need help  





> Three homebrews? THAT'S an addict.





OK, we need help


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## BSF (Jan 9, 2005)

A couple of months ago I kind of hijacked a thread and babbled on about Story Arcs in campaign design. It also delved into a particular scenario in my campaign that came up right around then.  So it demonstrates the design I am advocating.  It is an interesting read, I think.  Tell you what, if you are interested in building story arcs, give the thread a quick read.  If it is something people have interest in, let me know and I might put together a more coherent thoughts package on designing around story arcs.

 How far do you go in planning solutions to problems?(posted in October 2004


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## Evilhalfling (Jan 9, 2005)

Lets see I have found that unless I know the players really well planning anything specific more than a week in advance is a waste of time.  If I do I end up discarding or rewoeking at least a third of everything I design.  This can even show up in published adventures.  
I am playing at the moment and my group met without me over X-mas, and in the middle of a published modual decided to spend 53 days ! creating magic items. There is no way the DM could have anticipated this, and had to drastically rewrite some of the adventure.  

As a DM I will try to conserve planning and reuse things that have been skipped.  But I try not to get overly attached.   Like many of the posters I plan out the movements of imporatant NPC s and change their reactions based on the PC's actions.  But if the players don't get inolved or miss a hook (or spend 2 months in town) some plots will shift in time, and others will be completed without interferance. 
As for dungeoncraft - I try create small pieces of the world, built mostly around where the PC's are going to be.  With a few Large or important things that they could hear about, like metropolis sized cities or legendary sites. imagine living in russia in the middle ages, you would still get occasional news of London and Rome.


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## Y.O.Morales (Jan 9, 2005)

ChaosEvoker

I mean that we can actually make a sub-forum within ENWorld's forums. Here, check these links:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=118

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2620&


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 9, 2005)

@Lady Firehawk
Good Luck! Don't forget to kill your friends when it's over!

@Y.O.
Hmm...very interesting. So we would have to pay for it though? If so, We woudl need to figure out a way to pool money to pay for it each year. ($40.00 a year is very cheap but I woudln't want someone paying for it all themselves unless they just had all kinds of $$$ [you know, doctors and lawyers and such]) But if this could work out that would be great!

New Member!
derbacher

Welcome to the DMF!


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, my friend is gone and my free-time is running short with the new job next week but oh well.

The game went pretty well, although we didn't get as far as I would have liked. I think we're gonna continue the game over AIM, so hopefully we'll get something done weekly.

Re: Planning, I completely agree with Evilhalfling. Unless you know your players really really well, planning more than a week is useless.

Re: Mysteries, they're really hard in a high magic setting unless the PCs are low level or the bad guy(s) have access to divination-blocking magic. Personally, I find that mysteries are most effective in Ravenloft (or other low-magic settings) where the effectiveness of divinations (especially Detect Evil) are reduced. Nightcloak brought up using a string of clues. That's the best way to do it, especially if you're going for horror or high suspence. The more the PCs know, the less they're scared.

In my games, I like doing mysteries every once in a while. Red Herrings are always good and should be used often. (Face it, if every clue the PCs get means something, they start paying too much attention to the red herrings: it's that old "Hey! I found a rock!"). I like to be surprised by the ending of the mysteries too, so I rarely decide ahead of time how they'll end. I give the PCs 3-7 possible culprits and see who they think whodunnit. Usually I decide who's guilty (based on which choice would be the most dramatic) right before it becomes obvious.

Anyway, I hope that helps.


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## deClench (Jan 9, 2005)

> Originally posted by *Nightcloak*
> What I can say is be prepared for the PCs to use divinations to get the info they need. Don't discourage that or thwart it (after all, they earned the cool abilities and should be able to use them), just be prepared for it. A good trick is for it to answer some questions but lead to more questions, after all, divinations are usually vague. Like the answer implies many directions the characters could take. The PCs will need to gather more clues to get the specific divination they need, but by then... well the divination got them to the right place but then the mystery is on top of them.
> 
> The great thing about half answers is that the PCs will use their imaginations to fill in the rest (and that can be great in a horror based game).




Divination has indeed been a bane in the past.  Luckily, starting a low level, I would be able to cut my teeth on the new campaign before they would be able to go nuts with the ol' divining rod o' magic.

Maybe for every mystery created, I can muster up an arcane and obtuse phrase to go with it.  "Blue elf is about to die."     I think your idea of half-truths will work well as long as I'm ready for them.

Or I could be a jerk... "I have no idea why none of your Divination, and only Divination, spells aren't working."   

Maybe I'll just ban Diviners.  "Ever since the emergence of Diviner-bane weapons..."   

We'll just have to burn that bridge when we come to it.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 9, 2005)

Since most divinations reveal only cryptic answers, just give each clue you create a cryptic equivalent.


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## deClench (Jan 9, 2005)

> Originally posted by *BardStephenFox*
> Tell you what, if you are interested in building story arcs, give the thread a quick read. If it is something people have interest in, let me know and I might put together a more coherent thoughts package on designing around story arcs.




I read that thread and found it very interesting and informative.  It's something I would certainly be interested in reading more of.  A kind of blow-by-blow DM design diary.  You talked about how you developed your storyarc(s) and maintained the motivation of the BBEG(s) and then dealt with the inevitable PC-monkeywrench(es).  These are the types of insights you can only achieve through real DM experience (20000 xp to be exact).  That would be a great teaching tool!


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 9, 2005)

Alright, this is gonna' sound _really_, _really_ dumb, but I can't seem to find any of the smilies except for the basic five.      How do you find the other ones? *feeling really stupid right now...*

Greetings, durbacher!


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## Nightcloak (Jan 9, 2005)

Blade of Desecration said:
			
		

> Alright, this is gonna' sound _really_, _really_ dumb, but I can't seem to find any of the smilies except for the basic five.      How do you find the other ones? *feeling really stupid right now...*
> 
> Greetings, durbacher!




They should be (all 15) to the right when you type in a reply.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 10, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> They should be (all 15) to the right when you type in a reply.



I've only got five of 'em.


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## ender_wiggin (Jan 10, 2005)

Evilhalfling: Is the quote in your sig from the original novella? Because that's the only one I haven't read at least 20 times.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 10, 2005)

I'd say the best way to stay off of railroading PC's (aside from having a flexible stories) is to highly develop your NPCs. Know them and their history, that way you can adopt the NPC's character and from there determine how said NPC woudl react to any situation (old actors trick, sometimes it really helps being an actor when playing D&D)


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 10, 2005)

Alright everyone, I edited my sig and put in a few of my favorite links.  Check them out for a few laughs.  All your base are belong to us!

P.S. @CE If I recall, I found the 8bitdnd animation in your sig at the WotC boards.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 10, 2005)

Blade of Desecration said:
			
		

> I've only got five of 'em.




There has been some trouble do to some coding going on here at the boards. It has been widely discussed in Meta. I would explain it if I understood it.

I would try:

1. A new screen setting using the drop down menu at the bottom of the page on the left. I've read about a number of posters having issues with various screen settings.
2. Contact the Administrators via the Meta forum. The administrators are working overtime right now on a lot of bugs.

I'll keep my eyes open for anything else...


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 10, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> There has been some trouble do to some coding going on here at the boards. It has been widely discussed in Meta. I would explain it if I understood it.
> 
> I would try:
> 
> ...



Thanks.


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## BSF (Jan 10, 2005)

Code upgrades to close a huge security hole.  But that means apply code that might conflict with custom code mods for EN World.  It is a bit annoying with the timing.  Michael Morris is spending a lot of energy getting ready for the board upgrade already.  Still, security holes need to be closed, so it is minor pain that is far better than the alternative of a worm forcing a data restore of the site.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 10, 2005)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Code upgrades to close a huge security hole.  But that means apply code that might conflict with custom code mods for EN World.  It is a bit annoying with the timing.  Michael Morris is spending a lot of energy getting ready for the board upgrade already.  Still, security holes need to be closed, so it is minor pain that is far better than the alternative of a worm forcing a data restore of the site.




Thanks for breaking it all down. Now I get it.

And Michael Morris seems to be all over the place keeping this place running. Big time kudos to him! A board this size has to be a nightmare to maintain...

If I meet him some day, I'm definitely buying him a drink


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## BSF (Jan 10, 2005)

Just a quick (unofficial) breakdown of who's important.  

Michael handles the codebase.  So, he has limited Admin powers to apply software upgrades/patches.  He also designs all the cool styles for us and twaeks new features into the code.  He has also done a lot of work on WotC's boards.

Morrus, of course, is the site owner.  He is the ultimate decision maker and is the person responsible for the bills etc.  

Piratecat and Henry have the official Admin hats.  They obviously do a lot of moderating, but they also handle the administrative stuff like coordinating the hardware upgrade and generally being responsible.  They do a lot to help Morrus.

Darkness, Eridanis, Dinkledog, Hypersmurf, Nemmerle, Pielorinho, and Plane Sailing are the Moderators.  All of these folk help moderate things to keep EN World civil and smooth.  

We have a great group of Moderators/Admins and they do a good job of reminding us not to get out of hand.  

For the official info, check out the Meta Forum that Nighcloak mentioned earlier.  There is also a thread on how to Contact a Moderator if you need it.


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## Stone Angel (Jan 10, 2005)

Hear Hear our mods and admins are the best. The Bard speaks true


The Seraph of Earth and Stone


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## Xen155 (Jan 10, 2005)

Ah back, Just started BG1 and its sucking up my time (Just escaped from candlekeep.. Evoker, tell me what to do now!).   
I would like to say welcome to all the newcomers... welcome.... and say that I knew 3.0 for about a week until my uncle showed me his books, 2E, and was floored, "My god those are old!" It was to my suprise when I found out there was something older than that! I have never even seen a first version book!

Has any progress been made on the campaign and what about this seperate forum thingy, can someone explain that one? 
And I must agree with the Angel of Stone, these mods are superior. (Curse you Big Sister, CURSE YOU!)


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## Nightcloak (Jan 10, 2005)

Xen155 said:
			
		

> Ah back, Just started BG1 and its sucking up my time (Just escaped from candlekeep.. Evoker, tell me what to do now!).




Take the road north, and get party members fast - anyone. You can dump the odd ones later. Trust me, strength in numbers.



> Has any progress been made on the campaign and what about this seperate forum thingy, can someone explain that one?




There has been mild debate so far. It has been suggested that the DMF purchase and relocate to one of the hosted forums on ENWorld. It's an interesting idea. But I would like to suggest we open a second thread here in general, and soon (the 500 post mark is comming quickly and I think that is the accepted limit for a single thread). A second thread here in General for now would be better IMO. General has a lot of traffic for people to "bump" into this forum, read, and join in. Once were in another location we will be off the beaten path and out of sight. Just my $.02


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 10, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> (the 500 post mark is comming quickly and I think that is the accepted limit for a single thread).



Hmm...I didn't realize there was a limit on the number of posts per thread, but I guess that makes sense. I wonder if this thread will be deleted after a while once we've got the new one up and running. That might make it a little hard (at least at first) for new folks to jump in to the conversation.

Xen: If you've got a decent character, head south and do as much of the Nashkel mines as possible. Get up to around 7th level (easiest to do with a druid) and then go pick up the party members you want. Thier levels will have increased to be on par with your new level.


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## BSF (Jan 10, 2005)

There isn't a limit, it's just that most threads lose their focus as they grow in size.  As it is, this thread is something of an exception on EN World.  We have already covered several topics without spawning off into a new thread.  

Once a thread has ceased having new posts, it drops down into the thread history of EN World.  After something drops out of the first several pages of General, it becomes harder to find, but it is still searchable.  There really aren't many threads that get deleted, but the really good ones get moved into the permanent archive.  

That being said, we might see a purge when the new hardware is installed.  A faster server will make background, admin tasks easier for the the mods.  It would make sense to run a purge at that time if they plan on running one at all.  *shrug*  But all of  this is speculation.  If we do want to spin off a current thread, then just link this thread in the first post of the new one.  As each thread reaches a practical limit, create a new thread and link all the previous threads in order.  That way, somebody new can parse through the old threads if they choose.


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## BSF (Jan 10, 2005)

deClench said:
			
		

> I read that thread and found it very interesting and informative.  It's something I would certainly be interested in reading more of.  A kind of blow-by-blow DM design diary.  You talked about how you developed your storyarc(s) and maintained the motivation of the BBEG(s) and then dealt with the inevitable PC-monkeywrench(es).  These are the types of insights you can only achieve through real DM experience (20000 xp to be exact).  That would be a great teaching tool!




*laugh*  20000 exp?  I would have to go back and try to tabulate my totals over the last two and a half decades.  How does the conversion across editions work out?  

On a more serious note, let me give it some thought.  Maybe I will look at spinning it off as a thread, or perhaps as some articles.  Maybe it would be a good idea to lay things out with a behind-the-screen perspective and then post free-for-all examples of PCs interacting with the story arcs and *possible* ways the story arc will shift to accomodate that.  Would that be useful?  

Keep in mind that Story Arcing is one method of DMing.  Obviously I am a proponent of it.    But it isn't the only method.  Nor is it always the best method for every game.  But I think many of the priciples could be applied to other DM methodologies, so it might still be useful.

Thoughts?


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## Evilhalfling (Jan 10, 2005)

ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> Evilhalfling: Is the quote in your sig from the original novella? Because that's the only one I haven't read at least 20 times.




Nope Its completely made up. 
Just something that was on his mind in the final stages of book one. 
and closely linked to how much time and energy D&D use in my life. 

BladeOD 
try scrolling right, only 10 appear in my window w/o scrolling


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## Nightcloak (Jan 10, 2005)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> There isn't a limit, it's just that most threads lose their focus as they grow in size.  As it is, this thread is something of an exception on EN World.  We have already covered several topics without spawning off into a new thread.




Oh... I misunderstood. I thought I had seen one or two threads redirected at 500 in PbP plus the fact the Hive threads are always rebooting and made the jump from there.

Good to know, still learning. That what I get for lurking for way to long around here instead of participating


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 10, 2005)

*DMF Stuff*

@Xen
The campaign is still going on, I'm giving everyone until the end of the month to post a character if they want to play. So post your character in the thread if you want to play. (Oh and I believe I answered your question in 2nd hr correct?)

@New Thread?
Sound like a good idea for a temporary solution (After all, for all you old Guild House people, we'd hate to end up like the HEF) I'll reboot the thread when we reach 500-500+ posts. I'm still really interested and relaly like the idea of hosting a forum except that money is the only issue I am shaky on....I'm waiting for Y.O. Morales's responce on that.


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## Xen155 (Jan 10, 2005)

Thanks for all the help. 

I also like the seperate forum thing. I agree though, what to do about the money thing....

Also, about the new thread, I don't know. I like the idea of a big thread but you make a strong point about the HEF. If we do do the new thread we should have them liberally linked together.


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## Xen155 (Jan 10, 2005)

wefrghwfd


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## Nightcloak (Jan 10, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> The campaign is still going on, I'm giving everyone until the end of the month to post a character if they want to play. So post your character in the thread if you want to play. (Oh and I believe I answered your question in 2nd hr correct?)




I'm only available probably every other day currently do to RL. If that isn't an issue, then I'm in.




> @New Thread?
> Sound like a good idea for a temporary solution (After all, for all you old Guild House people, we'd hate to end up like the HEF) I'll reboot the thread when we reach 500-500+ posts. I'm still really interested and relaly like the idea of hosting a forum except that money is the only issue I am shaky on....I'm waiting for Y.O. Morales's responce on that.




I think a hosted forum would a great idea! The business manager in me just keeps comming up with the questions to potential problems involved. Us suits do that  

The money issue can be addressed. We just follow the example of other organizations and appoint someone to be responsable for paying the bills, keeping the receipts, and reporting the financials to the board... er council members. If we got a hosted forum here, we could use paypal for the donations, payments, and electronic receipts to keep things in line. Let me know if I should detail this line of thought more. 

At least setting up the system would be simple, getting the funds would be more interesting... Probably donations would be the best bet. I don't think the world is quite ready for DMF T-Shirts and Coffee Mugs  

Buy the way. What was the HEF and what happened?

Off to work, I'll check in later tonight.


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## Xen155 (Jan 10, 2005)

Ok, now im getting excited. I say we do It! I would donate!

The HEF is a horriblly muddled thread with.. this is not a joke.... 5,326 replies. And it is amazingly confused, there is RP sessions mixed in with class creations and i could go on and on. On a busy day it can get 100 posts a day!

Please Nightcloak, elaberate further on your ideas, the other members should begin commenting on this. Who would Donate? And I WOULD buy a DMF T-shirt!


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 11, 2005)

@Xen:  In BG1 don't let the halfling and necromancer you meet on the road join you.  They frickin' stab you in the back later.  Also, in Nashkel, get Minsc to join your party, he's the greatest character ever, plus he's a tank that will part enemy ranks with ease.  Just make sure you do his quest quickly, or he gets pi**ed off and attacks you, even though he is CG.

Campaign:  We need to hammer out particulars.  I think we should first figure out what CS we'll use, so that everyone can do there characters soon.  And everyone who has not posted what they will be has to do so now, so that we can stat up our characters.  I'm gonna be a orc warmage, and I'm currently working on his back-story.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 11, 2005)

Re: Campaign: I'd love to play, but my schedule is way too hectic to commit to anything right now. I'd be up for comming in later if that option's open. As for the setting, I think that most of us are fairly familiar with the Forgotten Realms, so that might be the best setting to go with.


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## Xen155 (Jan 11, 2005)

@CotDS- I killed them on sight actually, they didn't look right, being evil is fun.

I must agree with MtM, FR would be best. And I was thinking, are we gonna play it one post per day or are we gonna arrange times so we can play at a more rapid pace?

@CE- I'll have my char ready to post by 2nd hour.


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 11, 2005)

Xen155 said:
			
		

> @CotDS- I killed them on sight actually, they didn't look right, being evil is fun.
> 
> I must agree with MtM, FR would be best. And I was thinking, are we gonna play it one post per day or are we gonna arrange times so we can play at a more rapid pace?
> 
> @CE- I'll have my char ready to post by 2nd hour.



Figuring out when we can play is gonna' be hell, 'cause of time-zones.

@Xen:  Actually, killing those two wasn't really evil, since they were both NE.


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## Xen155 (Jan 11, 2005)

@CotDS-Oh, well. I KILL SMALL CHILDREN! There we go, now Evil. But you make a point there, we should get time zones, or it should be only loosely based on a group.


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## Evilhalfling (Jan 11, 2005)

Re: campiagn 
I vote for a post a day, I could do more at the moment but school starts in a week and I don't want to over commit.  
I had to step down from DMing my regular game last semester due to time constraints and burnout.   FR is fine, but Im a little rusty can anyone suggest a homeland for a gnome?


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## Nightcloak (Jan 11, 2005)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> Re: campiagn
> I vote for a post a day, I could do more at the moment but school starts in a week and I don't want to over commit.




Ditto.


----------



## deClench (Jan 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *BardStephenFox*
> On a more serious note, let me give it some thought. Maybe I will look at spinning it off as a thread, or perhaps as some articles. Maybe it would be a good idea to lay things out with a behind-the-screen perspective and then post free-for-all examples of PCs interacting with the story arcs and *possible* ways the story arc will shift to accomodate that. Would that be useful?
> 
> Keep in mind that Story Arcing is one method of DMing. Obviously I am a proponent of it. But it isn't the only method. Nor is it always the best method for every game. But I think many of the priciples could be applied to other DM methodologies, so it might still be useful.
> ...




I think it's a great idea.  Perhaps it would spark others to do the same (both experienced and green DMs).  I've played D&D for a couple decades off and on, but have only just started to DM and my experience hadn't prepared me as much as I would have liked (and there's only so much in the DMG).  The two sides of the curtain are totally different.  I never appreciated the work my past DMs put into their campaigns.  Reading the posts on how others DM has been TONS of help so far.   I'd love to read more and, hopefully, be able to add to it with my own.  If others with different perspectives and styles joined the discussion it could only make it better.  

I think the campaign that many are planning on this thread or some other forum is also a great idea and could prove extremely useful.  Unfortunately, it will most certainly be more of a committment than I can muster right now. RL is a harsh mistress.     Though I would surely spectate and throw popcorn as needed.


----------



## Blade of Desecration (Jan 11, 2005)

Me, I jsut get my basic plot then mod it all on the fly.  It's actually much more efficent than it sounds.

@EvilHalfling:  For a gnome, try Lantan as a homeland, especially if the gnome is mechanically or alchemically inclined.

P.S.  Hey everyone, I just started using a different browzer litterally five minutes ago, and unlike my old one, it loaded all the smilies!  Time for smily fun!              :\


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Jan 11, 2005)

Hmm...I was planning on anyone posting whenever they could for the campaign, and we just don't continue until the next person in initiative is posted.


----------



## Imret (Jan 11, 2005)

Well, now that my own computer is wired into the network, I'm fairly confident about campaigning. The only thing is...I've never been involved in a PbP D&D game. I'm just as willing to watch, maybe fill in a spot that opens up.


----------



## Darkness (Jan 11, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> Oh... I misunderstood. I thought I had seen one or two threads redirected at 500 in PbP plus the fact the Hive threads are always rebooting and made the jump from there.



Yeah, Hivemind threads end at 400 posts. The limit is mostly traditional nowadays, but back in the glory days of the Hive, when we had several hundred Hivemind posts every day, it was necessary.


----------



## Nightcloak (Jan 11, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Hmm...I was planning on anyone posting whenever they could for the campaign, and we just don't continue until the next person in initiative is posted.




Then I'm in. I'll get a character up within a couple of days. I also vote for FR.




			
				Imret said:
			
		

> Well, now that my own computer is wired into the network, I'm fairly confident about campaigning. The only thing is...I've never been involved in a PbP D&D game. I'm just as willing to watch, maybe fill in a spot that opens up.




Neither have I!!! The more the merrier. At least I wouldn't be the only one trying something new.



			
				Darkness said:
			
		

> Yeah, Hivemind threads end at 400 posts. The limit is mostly traditional nowadays, but back in the glory days of the Hive, when we had several hundred Hivemind posts every day, it was necessary.




This knowledge snafu shows how long I lurker around here before getting involved 

I'm enjoying myself a lot more now that I am posting/involved.


----------



## Evilhalfling (Jan 11, 2005)

Imret said:
			
		

> Well, now that my own computer is wired into the network, I'm fairly confident about campaigning. The only thing is...I've never been involved in a PbP D&D game. I'm just as willing to watch, maybe fill in a spot that opens up.




Theres only two characters posted, and this is my first time as well.  come jois us


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 11, 2005)

Just wanted to check in... I've been reading the posts (here and elsewhere on ENW) but have had little time to post anything aside from little snips and stuff.  The overtime should be ending this week and I can start fully participating again.


----------



## Nightcloak (Jan 11, 2005)

Xen155 said:
			
		

> The HEF is a horriblly muddled thread with.. this is not a joke.... 5,326 replies. And it is amazingly confused, there is RP sessions mixed in with class creations and i could go on and on. On a busy day it can get 100 posts a day!




 



> elaberate further...




First
[SBLOCK]Appoint someone (like a treasure possition) who receives the money, keeps the account, pays the bills. This does not need to be the same person who receives the donation. Most organizations I've been in use the limited VP possition as the donation guy so no one gets over loaded with work. He works the recruitment/collection process then passes the member list to the Pres and the funds to the Tres.

Note: I'm using RL possition titles as a reference. I don't think we would need to do that.[/SBLOCK]

Second
[SBLOCK]The Treasurer would post the donations in some fasion to insure everyone can double check it and make sure their money is accounted for and not missing. If someone is missing then that would give them the chance to contact the council and rectify the shortage and get it posted.[/SBLOCK]

Third
[SBLOCK]If a bill comes due - like the forum cost - then he would inform the man in charge to get a council vote to approve of the payment first. 

The treasure would pay bills approved by council vote and keep a ledger and all electronic receipts to report back to the council members. This allows all responsible parties to help oversee the flow of money and insure errors or worse do not happen. (You can never be to careful when it comes to money - trust me on this. People change quickly if they think they are getting shafted. A simple error could create problems.)[/SBLOCK]

Details, details
[SBLOCK]1. Someone would need to track votes of the council
2. Paypal is the best system, IMO. It is secure and generates receipts.
3. Paypal has usage fees. Do you plan on covering those costs for the donation collector and treasurer?
4. What would you do if there is still not enough money to pay needed bills.
5. What would be general policy for extra income that is left after the bills are payed?
6. What incentive, if any, would there be for people to donate. Do donators get a perk?

I have thoughts on these but, hey, this isn't the Nightcloak show (currently banned due to costume failure  ) so it should be a group process and vote.[/SBLOCK]

Finally, I still think we should stay put here for a while till details are ironed out, interest in the DMF helps support a move, and to take advantge of the high volume of traffic.



> the other members should begin commenting on this.




Indeed. Input would be welcome.



> And I WOULD buy a DMF T-shirt!




Whoa. Hold on there. while getting merchenduse is fun it is also a logistical pain. You need logos, artwork (You know you want artwork  ), who gets the task of collecting and paying for this stuff, set up costs, and finally who gets to store this stuff until needed. Merchendise is fun but can be a hassle. Lets get up and running before we start making things complex.  

However, a coffee cup with a dragon or balor on it would rock...


----------



## deClench (Jan 11, 2005)

Re the PbP campaign.

My fear is that it is that it's being made more complicated than it need be.  

First off, I don't really understand the rationale for changing forums?  If the gameplay is based off of a standard initiative and everyone posts a single post on their turn as they can (as has been suggested and which sounds reasonable to me), the thread shouldn't grow any faster than a normal thread (in case some were worried about size).  A sticky could be placed at the beginning directing lurker and would-be players to this thread in order to keep some semblance of order.  Everyone should stay strictly in character to avoid any unnecessary posts while discussion, etc. can again come back to this thread.

Also, the only thing that I can imagine to be gained from changing forums would be privacy.  Is that what everyone wants?  I thought the point was to make it open?  It has been said already  that if you jump forum you will hedge out newcomers.  I agree.  Besides, does 5ish players justify a $40/year investment which only a handful of others will even see?  That's a personal choice, but it's not attractive to me.

Lastly, this is untested.  What if everyone loses  interest in two weeks because it's simply too chaotic or too time-consuming or too something?  Then you would have a nice big empty forum for a year... and $40.  As it should follow initiative order in some way demands that posting slow down as everyone waits for everyone else.  Depending on the size of the party and the initial confusion of rules and format, a single round will likely take several days -- at least in the beginning: the point being that it's not likely to be a high traffic thread for a while which comes back to the justification for any forum jump.

My recommendation is to simply make it as an original thread here.  At least to see if it works and everyone stays interested.  If there's enough interest, it could be moved at some point, but I would argue against that as unnecessary and needlessly shunning the rest of the community.  Keep it simple, keep it fun.

That's just my 2... er... probably 3 cents.

"It's the adventure, stupid."


----------



## Evilhalfling (Jan 11, 2005)

deClench said:
			
		

> Re the PbP campaign.
> 
> My fear is that it is that it's being made more complicated than it need be.
> 
> ...




I like the second forum for the game because it can stay focused while this thread continues proving advice and discussion.   
The campign in a new forum has already started, in the playing the game forum.  There is no charge as far as I know.  The discussion of a private forum is a differernt issue, and I would agree with your reservations about it.   It would be easier to navigate, as different topics could have differerent threads, but it would prolly isolate the DMF.  The PbP should be isolated, because most people wont want to have to wade through round by round combat to get advice on gaming.   As a member of the campiagn I will follow both treads, but would still perfer them seperate.


----------



## Nightcloak (Jan 11, 2005)

I think we have some wires crossed...

The PbP will remain were it's at ( at least as far as I can tell )

What the folks here want to do is move _this_ forum/thread to an independent location. 

But I do have to agree with both of you, I do think it's a better idea to keep it here in general. 

But hey, they asked so I thought I should throw out the ideas for what their looking at. It would be a lot and they need to go into it with both eyes wide open to the reality involved. My example above was just a deminstration of the financials involved. There are plenty of other can o' worms to open up as well.

All though I still think a coffee mug with a dragon or balor on it would rock


----------



## Blade of Desecration (Jan 11, 2005)

"My PC's went to the Nine Hells and all they got was this stupid t-shirt!"


----------



## LilMissKittyn (Jan 12, 2005)

@derbacher


			
				derbacher said:
			
		

> "Who needs a new version? Everything is the same, just re-packaged, right?  Right?"




I would like your permission to use this in my sig, if I may. It would, of course, be credited.



			
				Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> Nope Its completely made up.
> Just something that was on his mind in the final stages of book one.




Actually, I think he actually said it....with a word variation and the repetition taken out. I'll have to go get my bro's copy and check.
(I've read Ender's Game 8 times).

Campaign. 
It seems like people are still interested, but the format might be better if we play in "sessions" and could make a bit more sense, but might be less inclusive (myself, for instance, but that's alright.) I'm busy most of the time (this is the first time I've made it back to the computer in five days for any significant amount of time) but I may be able to still be in it if it's PbP whenever you can.

Artifact thread. Are we going to be doing that? I haven't seen anything in that direction so I guess not....

About the sub-forum. It might be best if we take a vote or something, idk, since we keep on talking about it but we've never thoroughly discussed it. The pros and cons have been pointed out, so I guess it's time to decide.



			
				Nightcloak said:
			
		

> Whoa. Hold on there. while getting merchenduse is fun it is also a logistical pain. You need logos, artwork (You know you want artwork  ), who gets the task of collecting and paying for this stuff, set up costs, and finally who gets to store this stuff until needed. Merchendise is fun but can be a hassle. Lets get up and running before we start making things complex.
> 
> However, a coffee cup with a dragon or balor on it would rock...




I may be able to get real artwork. I belong to an art community (http://www.deviantart.com) and I have connections there. We'll see if people like the idea first.

Ok, I'll be back whenever I can. Over and out!


----------



## Y.O.Morales (Jan 12, 2005)

Well, let me drop Morrus an e-mail, and see what we can do about the hosted forum.


----------



## Nightcloak (Jan 12, 2005)

Blade of Desecration said:
			
		

> My PC's went to the Nine Hells and all they got was this stupid t-shirt!"




Dammit. They better have enough for all of us!

After all, we're the DM Foundation, which means we're probably the ones who sent them there...


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Jan 12, 2005)

@LMK
Problem with attempting "sessions" is that we'd have to organize all of our RLs to play. The point of a PbP game is that is doesn't require our Rls to be organized for sessions. I'm afraid that's just not going to happen.

@Forum Stuff
I love the idea of A t-Shirt and such (that's how official national organizations and such get started...advertisement) Another advantage to the new forum is we could ppoint myself and the counsil as moderators....That seems the logical choice for moderators to me at least.

@derBacher
Um....We aren't talkign aobut a whole new forum for the campaign....We're talking about a new forum for the DMF as a whole.


----------



## Nightcloak (Jan 12, 2005)

I think we need to get the question generator running again, this talk of forums and PbP has eaten up a lot of space and hi-jacked the purpose of this thread IMHO.

New Question:

How much third party material do you own/use in your games?

By third party I mean non-WotC products.

As for myself, my bookshelf has a lot of Scared Lands, Necromancer Games, Green Ronin, and Malhavoc Press material. A also have PDF's from Malhavoc Press, The Le Games (Thanks to the Server Drive  ), and Creative Mountain Games.

I'm slowly working a lot of this material into my howebrew.


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 12, 2005)

Re: 3rd Party stuff, I don't have much except for the Ravenloft stuff. I bought Relics & Rituals and one of the Scarred Lands monster books, but both were supremely disappointing, so I haven't looked at anything they've done since. I occasionally glance through some of the other publishers' material, but none of it really appeals to me.

WotC gets a lot of flak about unballanced stuff and power creep, but I find most of thier stuff to be fairly good. I can say that because I am definitely not one of those DMs that allows everything into my games. If WotC puts out something that doesn't fit with my game, I don't let it in. Of course, it helps to have players that are more interested in taking stuff because "It's what my character would do" than "This PrC R0xx0rz!!111!!!eleven!".

Books like the Races of X and the Terrain books have so far been excluded, but we'll have to see how Races of the Wild and Maelstrom do. (One of my players has a long-time Elven wizard in the FR, and she loves getting new stuff on elves. I personally am looking forward to Maelstrom 'cause I wanna be a...er, um, wanna run a pirate game).


----------



## Blade of Desecration (Jan 13, 2005)

*my campaign*

@CE:  My home D&D group is thinking of doing one of our test campaigns on the EnWorld boards.  To start a campaign, do you just post the thread, or do you have to do something like ask permission from a moderator?


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Jan 13, 2005)

@BoD
No just post a recruiting thread on the "Talking the Talk" Forum. Once you have your PCs, you can play in the "Playing the Game" forum. (I stated the DMF Campaign in the wrong place...I discovered this too late :/)


----------



## Blade of Desecration (Jan 13, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> @BoD
> No just post a recruiting thread on the "Talking the Talk" Forum. Once you have your PCs, you can play in the "Playing the Game" forum. (I stated the DMF Campaign in the wrong place...I discovered this too late :/)



Thanks.  I already have my PCs, they're the my real gaming group.  We're setting up a "bloodlines" campaign, and are gonna' test it online to hammer out rules before we really start to play during our regular meetings.  This way, the testing can be done during the week, since we never meet on weekdays.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 13, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> How much third party material do you own/use in your games?




Very little, to be honest.  I bought Relics and Rituals and Creature Collection the day they came out in 2000, and have used R&R precisely once.

I own a lot of the Malhavoc releases, and only bits and pieces of them have barely trickled into my games, though I find them to be really well done and great supplements.  I was also given Torn Asunder from Bastion Press, but like my own critical hit method better.


----------



## Nightcloak (Jan 13, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> I was also given Torn Asunder from Bastion Press, but like my own critical hit method better.




What critical hit method do you use?


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## Aris Dragonborn (Jan 13, 2005)

Ok, sign me up. I think that I would like to join the DMF too. 

I'm a reasonably experienced DM, though I have a problem from time to time actually writing down my ideas; I'll think up a great hook, but when I try to flesh it out, all that information just seems to disappear. Our goup right now is kinda hit or miss; some nights, everyone shows up, but more often than not, one of the three won't be able to make it. I'm thinking of having the remaining two just roll up gestalt characters from Unearthed Arcana. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? Much Appreciated.


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## Evilhalfling (Jan 13, 2005)

@Dragonborn - two players is very difficult, I would recomend posting a players wanted either here or a you LGS - put your aprox ages, and a description of what kind of campaign you like to run.  There may be a few false starts but a larger group is really just better.   You can fill in using Gesalts, followers or muliple PCs, but these are mostly stopgag measures. 

@ Nightcloak - how much 3rd party marterial I use varies, my last game was influenced by Scarred lands - and WoT bits crop in, but mostly its just WotC, and some conversions from ealier editions.   Anything outside core has to be approved before showing up.  
In the campaign I am playing in the DM is more liberal, and while we can bring in 3rd party material we havent done so.


----------



## Stone Angel (Jan 13, 2005)

Speaking of Torn Asunder does anyone know where to buy this, and does anyone remember the critical hit chart from the "Best of Dragon" back in the 80's and if I can find that anywhere?


The Seraph of Earth and Stone


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 13, 2005)

Ahh, it's good to be home. Night shifts are a pain. Anyway, on to the Foundation stuff:



			
				Aris Dragonborn said:
			
		

> Ok, sign me up. I think that I would like to join the DMF too.
> 
> I'm a reasonably experienced DM, though I have a problem from time to time actually writing down my ideas; I'll think up a great hook, but when I try to flesh it out, all that information just seems to disappear. Our goup right now is kinda hit or miss; some nights, everyone shows up, but more often than not, one of the three won't be able to make it. I'm thinking of having the remaining two just roll up gestalt characters from Unearthed Arcana. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? Much Appreciated.



We'll be glad to help with any fleshing out, rest assured.

As for the Gestalt Characters, I don't recommend them. They tend to get a little power heavy very quickly, and if you're not ready for it, it can be very hard to handle.



			
				Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> @Dragonborn - two players is very difficult



 I've actually found that 2 players isn't all that hard. You sorta have to play it by ear, and they'll have to change tactics slightly (I don't like to use DMPCs in my games), but overall small groups lend themselves well to character development and better roleplaying. You also get to do some cool stuff without having to worry too much about balance (since you're constantly tweaking things anyway). You might want to give 2 players a shot for a while and see how it works out. It's best if the PCs have at least one Ranger or Paladin and at least one Rogue (with Use Magic Device) or Wizard. I'd be happy to give more advice for small games (most of my 12 years behind the screen has been with one or two PC parties).


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 13, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> What critical hit method do you use?




It's one I came up with, loosely based on some things I found on the net as well as my own fevered brain.  It demands a slight rework to the rules regarding weapons, but it takes into account weapon size vs. target size as well as rewarding increased prowess in battle due to level progression.  If  you're interested, drop me a line at dungeonmastercal@yahoo.com and I'll send it to you.


----------



## Cerubus Dark (Jan 13, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> MEMBERS LIST
> 
> Anyone who wants to join may, just post your request!



Thou canst add my name to thine list.

Er, sorry too much coffe this morning.

Sign me up boss.


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Jan 13, 2005)

New Members!
Aris Dragonborn
Cerubus Dark

Welcome to the DMF!

We haven't used much stuff outside of WotC stuff. I'm currently takign on a huge project and creating a very complex new campaign setting. I'm reformating hwo magic itself works in the process so we'll see how that goes. If any of you are interested in helping/giving input/just plain curious about it, drop me an email at chaosevoker@yahoo.com


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## LilMissKittyn (Jan 13, 2005)

Would I sound too terribly stupid if I asked what gestalt characters are?


----------



## Nightcloak (Jan 13, 2005)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Would I sound too terribly stupid if I asked what gestalt characters are?




Not at all. 

Blessed are thou for not knowing the power options young DM. 
Power creep is the way to the darkside and must be avoided if our order is to survive! Run... Run while you can from the power options!

er...

Seriously, gestalt characters are an option from Unearthed Arcana for games with 1 or 2 characters. Characters playing gestalt get to choose two classes and advance in the special abilities (including spells!) of both classes. As Mordmorgan pointed out, they can get out of control as the characters advance.


----------



## BSF (Jan 13, 2005)

Stone Angel said:
			
		

> Speaking of Torn Asunder does anyone know where to buy this, and does anyone remember the critical hit chart from the "Best of Dragon" back in the 80's and if I can find that anywhere?
> 
> 
> The Seraph of Earth and Stone




Bastion Press extended their $5 sale until the end of January.  Basically, they are eliminating stock that is moving slowly and taking up warehouse space.  Torn Asunder is (was) on that list.  Get Torn Asunder and several other kickin' titles while you can.

Bastion's Online store

I don't have time to reply to the current topics.  *sigh*  Soon though, I hope.  Busy week.  But I had to take a moment to reply to this one because it is time-sensitive.


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 13, 2005)

Gestalt Characters remind me of the kind of powercreep introduced with 2e's Player's Option.

@CE: What's the basic concept for your world? I'm very interested in hearing what you've got for a new magic system. Let us know


----------



## derbacher (Jan 14, 2005)

Wow, what a bust week!

@LilMissKittyn


> I would like your permission to use this in my sig, if I may. It would, of course, be credited.



Feel free to use anything that may fall from my fingers onto the keyboard; goodness knows I borrow enough stuff to use for my own (semi)-evil plans!

@ChaosEvoker


> @derBacher
> Um....We aren't talkign aobut a whole new forum for the campaign....We're talking about a new forum for the DMF as a whole.



Don't know how this got attributed to me, but seeing as this is only my second post, I didn't say it! Seriously, whatever forum is chosen is fine by me. I'll only be stopping in about two or three times a week, so just make sure you leave a well-marked trail of breadcrumbs if the move happens!

@Third party Stuff
Right now I'm going through six books from Fantasy Flight Games (after their $5 sale in December, I just couldn't resist the 170-plus page hardcovers). Some of the bits look very interesting, and will probably get integrated into one or both campaigns in the next month.


----------



## LilMissKittyn (Jan 14, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> Blessed are thou for not knowing the power options young DM.
> Power creep is the way to the darkside and must be avoided if our order is to survive! Run... Run while you can from the power options!




Wow. That was certainly...intruiging. 
I can understand why they might get a bit out of hand. But if the monsters were adjusted by the DM to fit the campaign better, why would they be a problem?
A naive and, perhaps, stupid question, but I must ask it nevertheless.



			
				derbacher said:
			
		

> @LilMissKittyn Feel free to use anything that may fall from my fingers onto the keyboard; goodness knows I borrow enough stuff to use for my own (semi)-evil plans!




Thanks. And just to let you know, we'll leave a large post saying where we are, plus we'll advertise every once in a while on the EN boards. So it shouldn't be a problem.

@Everyone
CE and I will be out of town this weekend on a church trip, so if there's any new members or emergency council business...well, he'll be on later tonight, he can explain that. Have fun, I'll talk to you whenever I come up for air again!
(2 more finals....)


----------



## Blade of Desecration (Jan 14, 2005)

Aris Dragonborn said:
			
		

> Ok, sign me up. I think that I would like to join the DMF too.
> 
> I'm a reasonably experienced DM, though I have a problem from time to time actually writing down my ideas; I'll think up a great hook, but when I try to flesh it out, all that information just seems to disappear. Our goup right now is kinda hit or miss; some nights, everyone shows up, but more often than not, one of the three won't be able to make it. I'm thinking of having the remaining two just roll up gestalt characters from Unearthed Arcana. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? Much Appreciated.



Man, I feel your pain.  I have the same problem, both with plots and when I try my hand as a writer.  I have a bunch of great ideas, and then have problems actually explaining them.  Hate it when that happens.


----------



## Dyne (Jan 14, 2005)

I haven't posted in a while. Been rather busy lately. So, what's going on now?


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 14, 2005)

LilMissKittyn said:
			
		

> Wow. That was certainly...intruiging.
> I can understand why they might get a bit out of hand. But if the monsters were adjusted by the DM to fit the campaign better, why would they be a problem?
> A naive and, perhaps, stupid question, but I must ask it nevertheless.



I'm sure someone will find a better way to explain this, but here-goes. You've essentially got 2 PCs in one, so to make monsters challenging, you'll have to either up the CR of the individual monsters or add more monsters. This increases the treasure per encounter, and thus how much power the PCs have, and forcing the DM to increase monster CR again. Rinse, Repeat, Destroy Campaign. Not a stupid question at all, just one that can only be answered by experience.



> @Everyone
> CE and I will be out of town this weekend on a church trip, so if there's any new members or emergency council business...well, he'll be on later tonight, he can explain that. Have fun, I'll talk to you whenever I come up for air again!
> (2 more finals....)



I hope you guys have fun! I'll be glad to make announcements and act as Leader Protem while CE's gone


----------



## ChaosEvoker (Jan 14, 2005)

@derbacher
I guess I was wrong perhaps it was declench......*shrugs* WHOEVER posted a comment relating to that it was direct at you! (sorry derbacher)

@Stuff
Yeah me and my g/f will be gone this weekend for a church trip. I hereby turn the responsibility of recognizing new members and such little things that I enjoy to any member of the counsil who happens to notice it. I will be back Sunday when ever I post that I ahve returned, please post a list of any new members since I left so I can update the members list without having to wade through everything. Thanks.

@Mordmorgan
if you send me your email or email me at chaosevoker@yahoo.com I'll email you the specs.

CHAOS EVOKER


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 14, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> @derbacher
> I guess I was wrong perhaps it was declench......*shrugs* WHOEVER posted a comment relating to that it was direct at you! (sorry derbacher)



*Points finger at Xen* Uhh..He did it!


----------



## Xen155 (Jan 14, 2005)

*Xen stares blankly at MordMorgan* Did what?


----------



## Shuffle (Jan 14, 2005)

Mind signing me up too?  ^^


   I have a nasty feeling that my players are doomed next session.....


----------



## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 14, 2005)

Shuffle said:
			
		

> Mind signing me up too?  ^^



*Casts _Summon Evoker_*


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## Xen155 (Jan 14, 2005)

Summon Evoker..... get it.... get it... <_< >_>


I thought it was funny.

WELCOME SHUFFLE, your players will not survive your next incounter with this custom... Iron Collosus, thats right and I tell ya what.. I like you, now, im not supposed to to this but i'll give it to you for 35% off! 
You'll take it.. really? OK!
Thanks for doing buisness at CrAzY Xen's your one source for Magic Aotumotons!

Wow... where am I.....

MordMorgan! Curse the combination of low will saves and enchantment spells! *Chases MMtM around the DMF with a big stick.*

But actually- Welcome Shuffle, we not only can give you clever ways to kill your players, we can help you with.... naaaaw we can really only help you in killing your players.







I am quite obviously bored.


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## Dyne (Jan 14, 2005)

> I am quite obviously bored.




You're not the only one. But, I'd rather not derail the thread. Instead, I get all the kinks out by posting at the Castle of Fun at the WotC boards.

For any of you who like to kid around and be plain silly, I reccommend you visit the CoF. It's a cool place, best place at WotC boards for me.

You can find it here.

(Realizes that he just derailed the thread with a meaningless advertisement and whacks himself over the head with a large stick)


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## Nightcloak (Jan 14, 2005)

Bad Xen bad!

You know the rules, no hustling new members. 

*Takes big stick away with obvious indent of MMtM on it*

And no bashing members either, as a council member you have a high standard to uphold.

*Takes big stick and chases Dyne with it*

And you, stop derailing the thread!


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## Evilhalfling (Jan 14, 2005)

we have rails?  OMG ! 
Im not on the danged lighting train again, am I ? 
just say no to magetech.


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## Dyne (Jan 14, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> Bas Xen bad!
> 
> You know the rules, no hustling new members.
> 
> ...




[Silliness]That's the spirit! Wait, no, no it's not. Wrong forum. Wrong boards entirely.
*Flees the wrath of the big stick*[/Silliness]

I've posted before that I was attempting to create a new game system that would emulate the D&D game while attempting to expand and stream-line it more. I've been thinking about the Races of D&D and comparing them to LotR, and I've decided to alter them slightly. Here's what I've got for the Elves and Dwarves so far:

*Elf*
+2 Dexterity
-2 Constitution
+2 Wisdom
+2 Charisma
Maybe a few abilities pertaining to magic, or something that makes them more adept at being a magic user.
LA: Probably +1
Everything else would basically be the same.

*Dwarf*
+2 Strength
-2 Dexterity
+2 Constitution
-2 Charisma
Size: Small
Powerful Build: Can be treated as a Medium-size character in a circumstance in which this would be more beneficial.
Everything else would probably be the same as D&D.

I will probably change the Abilities a bit so that they affect the game in slightly different ways. I'll try to make the Mental abilities be completely equal to the Physical abilities, to get rid of the discrepancies when balancing a race's ability adjustments.


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## BSF (Jan 14, 2005)

*Third Party Materials*

I mine a vast expanse of resources for stuff to fit into my game. I homebrew and I tinker a bit.  Overall, I am fairly comfortable adding anything that I think will enliven my world.  I have removed races, and adjusted races.  My criteria though is that I feel it is powered for the game I want to run.  That means it is relatively well balanced against the rest of the group, and it fits the atmosphere of my campaign.  In the current campaign, let me run through the books that have material which has been used so far.  I am just going off rapid memory, so I al almost certainly miss some things.

Core rulebooks
Psychics Handbook (Green Ronin)
Shaman's Handbook (Green Ronin)
Beyond Monks (Chainmail Bikini Games - In print via Goodman games)
Complete Warrior
Complete Divine
Swashbuckling Adventures (AEG)
Path of Magic (Fantasy Flight Games)

These are used almost every session since we have PC's with character classes from these books.

Other books that have seen, or are likely to see player use include:
Artificer's Handbook (Mystic Eye Games)
Spellbound (Living Imagination)
Book of Exalted Deeds
Occult Lore (Penumbra/Atlas Games)
Book of Hallowed Might (Malhavoc)
Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc)
Portals & Planes (Fantasy Flight Games)
Corsair (Adamant Entertainment)

There are many, many more books that I take material from.  Most of it would be available to PCs in the correct circumstances.  

Overall, I mine third party materials heavily.  As it is, I have bought far more third party books then I have WotC books.  I like to sprinkle new ingredients into the mix once I see something that feeds a new idea to me.  I think many people would look at the variety of books I use and think I am completely out of hand.  But I don't allow books into the game wholesale unless the entire book fits my vision nearly flawlessly.  I am just careful to try to keep each PC with a niche that they excel at.  There are a lot of books that can provide a little material here and there for PCs to benefit from.  I encourage that and I tell my players that if they have a concept, or an idea, they should tell me so I can help them reach their aspirations.  

Overall, I have been fortunate and I have not yet allowed something that broke down in play.  So it has all worked out nicely.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 14, 2005)

Dyne: Interesting. I'll be curious to see were you go with this. Out of curiosity, shouldn't the Dwarf have a LA +1 like the elf.

Bard: I love that list! Great material there. To bad I live across the country, or I'd ask to sit in one night and see it all in action  




Nightcloak: Unofficial pimp of third party material.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 15, 2005)

Dyne: Any plans for humans and hobbitses?

Oooooh, I've been waiting a while to do this:

Announcing our newest Foundation Member:




*Shuffle*


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 15, 2005)

@Dyne:  Frodo Baggins: Hobbit War1: Str. 6, Dex 10, Con. 4, Int. 7, Wis. 9, Cha. 10; AL LS (Lawful Stupid.)
Yeah, I'm a Frodo-hater, so what?


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 15, 2005)

My gaming group and I have had the idea to start a "bloodlines" campaign.  How these work is to do a really long campaign spanning a characters entire life, and using NPCs, such as the characters descendants, as PCs if the normal ones die, or if they are KIA.  So these campaigns could span entire generations.  Needless to say, this is gonna be really long.  I'm MDMing, but everyone will get the opportunity to DM every now and then.  Does anyone have any suggestions, on how best to do this campaign, such as plotlines  and RVs that can span generations?


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 15, 2005)

Hmmm...Looks like that'll be cool. I'd make sure that the most important NPCs have very, very detailed histories and seem like real people. Allow the PCs to form solid relationships with them (even the baddies), and have them act in a real way.

I dunno about plotlines though. Best I can think of is one of the PCs has a family quest/curse that his/her family has been trying to complete/remove for ages. Perhaps this quest is actually guarding something, or completing a journey (like a Hajj) every so often or something.


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## Cerubus Dark (Jan 15, 2005)

Blade of Desecration said:
			
		

> My gaming group and I have had the idea to start a "bloodlines" campaign.  How these work is to do a really long campaign spanning a characters entire life, and using NPCs, such as the characters descendants, as PCs if the normal ones die, or if they are KIA.  So these campaigns could span entire generations.  Needless to say, this is gonna be really long.  I'm MDMing, but everyone will get the opportunity to DM every now and then.  Does anyone have any suggestions, on how best to do this campaign, such as plotlines  and RVs that can span generations?



Liches are fun!

They like to plot and kill people and they don't care how long a plot takes to complete, they are already dead!  Of course you could use a dragon or something too, but liches are funnier.  



*never type when your half awake....


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## Nightcloak (Jan 15, 2005)

Blade of Desecration: I like the idea of a generational quest of MtM. You concept is epic in nature and requires a good epic link to tie it together. Quests work well and mimic many great works of literature, something the players will be able to relate to easily. Further, a family type quest gives you a great tie in if PC's die. The next PC comes to carry on the "Family Quest" and is easily integrated into the group. 

I also like the multiple PC or generational aspect idea of yours for another reason. An epic story arc will be incredibly rewarding for the players. A long dungeon or adventure is satisfying into itself, but a story that requires multiple characters or generations is epic indeed. It's a great concept.

The only thing I can think of at the moment to add: Create a campaign theme. A sort of mission statement to guide the creative process when you create each new segment of the quest. It will help keep the different adventures/missions tied together. That will be important considering this story could take quite a while to tell. I've seen a lot of long term campaigns just run out of fuel and die out after a while do to lack of focus and eventual player apathy/inertia. Keeping things tied together in story and theme will help keep things focused for the long haul.

Sounds great, keep us posted


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## Dyne (Jan 16, 2005)

Mordmorgan the Mad said:
			
		

> Dyne: Any plans for humans and hobbitses?




I'm working on Hobbits. I'm not completely certain what to change on them, but they will at least get some kinda bonuses on Listen and Spot, as well as maybe a few other tweaks. I'll basically read through The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings and take notes on things about Hobbits from the books that should be emulated in the game. I don't know if there is anything to change about Humans.

Dwarves will probably change some more, to the point that they may become LA +1. But, as is, I don't think they're good enough for an LA +1. Also, Elves don't die of old age, so that might adjust their LA even further. If I give them any magical abilities, their LA will go up more. As they stand, though, they're LA +1.

@BoD: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Don't hate.

The things I am posting for Races is according to the D&D Core Mechanics. This whole thing is still in the works. I may change the mechanics to the point that the Races will have to be redone because they no longer apply.

By-the-way, isn't D20 copyrighted? So, if I wanted to publish a D20 System game, I would run into copyright problems? Would I instead have to make it D100 or something?

@BoD on the "Bloodlines" Campaign:
Obviously, it needs a plot that is broader than a single lifetime. Perhaps the family of the PC's is trying to destroy a particular type of creatures, and it takes a long time for them to destroy all of these creatures because they are so widespread. Or, they could be fighting against a villain so powerful that the PC's have to fight him one step at a time, for generations.

For example, perhaps the first generation acquires certain artifacts for use against the main villain. The first generation uses these artifacts against the villain, but they are unable to destroy him. Instead, they defeat his lieutenants and drive his forces off. The second generation inherits these artifacts, and they use them against the villain. They manage to drive off the villain again, but only for a time. By sacrificing their lives, they put the villain into a stasis. The third generation must then search out these artifacts again, then finally destroy the villain. This villain could be as big as a deity, depending on the scope of the campaign (which sounds quite large).

Or maybe the family of the PC's is fighting against another family of villains. The ancestors of the later PC's once defeated a great evil that threatened the world, but the descendants of the evil beings are back for revenge, and so the legacy of these great heroes must fend off an evil of their own.

However, if I were to run such a campaign, I would avoid having descendants of the PC's suddenly step in when a character is so stupid he gets himself killed. The descendants should only come into play when the original characters die deliberately in an honorable sacrifice, in my opinion. Plus, it doesn't make sense how a character's great grandson could be adventuring with his great grandfather's best friend, considering the possibility of one Player who dies several times while another manages to keep his head. If a PC dies, however, you could have a cousin or brother or sister or something come in to take his place. I'd avoid "free do-overs", though.


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 16, 2005)

D20 is and isn't copyrighted. As long as you only use the stuff from the SRD (which is published as Open Game License material), you're fine. BTW, there's a LOTR setting out there somewhere, at least I think there is. Might be worth a look.

For Hobbitses, you might think of giving them the Inescapable Craving quality from Libris Mortis (but for Ale and Food instead of Raw Meat).


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## Dyne (Jan 16, 2005)

Sadly, I don't own Libris Mortis. Could you explain it?


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## BSF (Jan 16, 2005)

Dyne, I was going to lookup some of the Middle Earth conversions that have been done in the past, but there is a thread on it right now in House Rules.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=112863


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## Blade of Desecration (Jan 16, 2005)

Thanks for the ideas guys.  The campaign is going to be _very_ long, so we're not using it as a main campaign (actually, everyone in my group has their own campaign that they DM, but I help everyone else, since all of them started DMing recently).  Most campaigns I've heard of only take a few months, but we're planning on this being much like several campaigns strung together.

@Dyne:  It won't just be relatives or descendants, just poeple close to the PCs.  And they won't automatically step in if the PC gets killed dungeoneering.  In this case, the other PCs would still try to raise the fallen PC.  You get a new character only when it makes sense.  Such as the paladin has a son, paladin dies heroic death, paladins son is inspired by daddy's sacrifice, takes up daddy's sword, and attempts to join the PCs.  They might not even let him join immediatly, and we might have a long stretch of time where the rejected son tags along after the PCs without there knowledge.

One of the other things about the campaign is we didn't want anyone to change there character to fit with the group more.  We made it so that know one knows who or what anyone elses character is (except me, since everyone has to clear it with me).  The max ECL is 4.  Only alignment restriction is evil.  The reason I did this is so that know one makes a character of a fighter and love the character they've made, find out that someone else made a fighter, and need to change there character for the sake of "party balance".


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## LilMissKittyn (Jan 16, 2005)

Hey, guys, we're back! But I'm not sure if CE will be on tonight....my sleep amounts for the last three nights have been something like 2, 4, 3.5, plus a broken 2.5 on the bus. It's been a long trip.
I'll stop talking about personal things and post something real later. Just thought you'd like the heads up.


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## Treebore (Jan 16, 2005)

Decipher owns the offical LotR RPG license and uses the CODA system for it as well as their licensed Star Trek RPG. The system is pretty good, but you will probably want to tweak it a bit. the cover price on the books is high, though. 

I believe Decipher also does the collectable card game versions of both the LotR and Star Trek licenses.

Libris Mortis is the book of the undead WOTC put out a few months ago. If you really like using undead in your games, get it. If you really don't have a particular liking for undead you may be dissapointed with it.


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## LilMissKittyn (Jan 17, 2005)

What's the CODA system?

Sorry, as a music student, I see that and think the musical term...


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## Treebore (Jan 17, 2005)

Its the name for their game mechanic, it is more skill and feat based, but dice are still used for resolutions. Browse Deciphers website, it gives you the basics.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 17, 2005)

*An enourmous eruption of green fire occurs in the center of the counsil chambers of the DMF. Green fire begins to fill the room but suddenly focuses into a swirling tornado of green fire. In a sudden explosion, fire flies everwhere. Everyone stands unscathed however, and in the middle of the counsil chamber stands a single man. his long brown hair reaching down to his shoulders, dressed in chaotic-looking robes and a bright red cape. With a dramatic motion, he speaks:*

I HAVE RETURNED!

Hey guys I have returned. I slept fairly well though sleeping with LMK on the bus was fun.
I see we only have one new member.....

@Mordmorgan
Thanks a ton. now you understand what joy I get from these things. Actually, I'd liek for me and the counsil to take turns greeting new members from now on so they can enjoy it.

@Topic
Yeah the difference between D&D elves and Tolkein elves is quite striking. Though I can figure out how to compensate for all of that without making elves liek +3 ECL which would make them much less desirable to play....


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## Nightcloak (Jan 17, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> Yeah the difference between D&D elves and Tolkein elves is quite striking. Though I can figure out how to compensate for all of that without making elves liek +3 ECL which would make them much less desirable to play....




The best bet would be to follow the race levels of Arcana Unearthed. That way, the character could take levels in "elf" to get the intrestic elven abilities or just skip them and take normal class levels. They are better balanced as it doesn't feel like you're getting hosed for playing a race with a ECL adjustment.


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## Nightcloak (Jan 17, 2005)

ChaosEvoker said:
			
		

> I'd like for me and the counsil to take turns greeting new members from now on so they can enjoy it.




Works for me. Quick question thou. What about posting the new members to the member list? 

And more importantly, when do the council members get the green smoke FX?


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 17, 2005)

*Uses _Fire Extinguisher of Haste_ to put out the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_*drapes*_





* "Nobody's getting any more special FX until we get fireproof furniture in here!"

@Dyne: Basically, the rule says that ghouls have to consume thier body weight in raw meat per day. For hobbitses, you might think about double that.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 17, 2005)

Nightcloak said:
			
		

> Works for me. Quick question thou. What about posting the new members to the member list?
> 
> And more importantly, when do the council members get the green smoke FX?



That will happen assuming we get our new forum going. Which is all dependant on a bunch of things. I'm still waiting on Y.O.Morales for more details....For now I'm the only one who can edit the members list because it was my post...


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## Xen155 (Jan 17, 2005)

Don't be inpressed with him Nightcloak, it'll be like throwing gasoline onto an already large enough fire .


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 17, 2005)

Heh I think I jsut figured out what you meant Nightcloak.

*hands each counsil member a green amulet*
It's not much compared to the _Staff of Racanath_ that Dyne stole back at the WotC boards but I think it will suffice. Now you can play with the green smoke stuff too 

@Xen
Shut up.


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## Xen155 (Jan 17, 2005)

I can not be silanced! Hear me good DMs of the DMF, CE is a tyrant.... Overthrow him befor he crushes your will saves!
*Charm spell reactivates*
Worship ChaosEvoker!


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 17, 2005)

*sighs heavily and mumbles under his breath* Blasted Will saves...I need that _Epic Permanency_ spell. Now where did I put that thing......? (ah the digression)


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## Mordmorgan the Mad (Jan 17, 2005)

*Uses green amulet to light Xen's butt on fire* "Dance, little minion! Dance!"


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## Xen155 (Jan 17, 2005)

Yeah CE, Epic spells....
I cant help it... must use line:
Ah, but I digress.
I never use 3rd party stuff. If its not WotC or homebrew I dont use it.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 17, 2005)

HEy now MtM, don't forget Xen has one too....


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## Xen155 (Jan 17, 2005)

*Uses green amulet to inshroud MtM in a raging inferno of green hellfire.*
There.


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## ChaosEvoker (Jan 17, 2005)

Alright I'm rebooting the thread now it will be entitled:

The Dungeon Masters' Foundation Mk. II


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## Xen155 (Jan 17, 2005)

<< DELETED >>


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## LilMissKittyn (Jan 17, 2005)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114376

To make it a bit easier on everyone, here's the link to the new thread.


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## joshuafrfld701 (Nov 21, 2009)

I just got back from my week long visit to California (no real access to a computer), and saw what happened to the old foundation. Oh well, at least we'll always have Paris.

_________________
kasey kahne calendar


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## jaerdaph (Nov 21, 2009)

joshuafrfld701 said:


> I just got back from my week long visit to California (no real access to a computer), and saw what happened to the old foundation. Oh well, at least we'll always have Paris.[/URL]




Considering the last post in this thread was made five years ago, I'd say that was a pretty long week...


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## renau1g (Nov 21, 2009)

hahahha


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