# Help! I need a rules-lite super hero RPG



## ForceUser (Jan 20, 2010)

I've been perusing _Mutants & Masterminds_, but I think there's too much going on there for me to bother with. I just left 3E for 4E D&D and I'm not thrilled about going back to the standard d20 system and all of its crunchy numbers for a supers game. But the system can't be _Marvel Super Heroes _either, which I played in high school and which is essentially one chart and a couple d10s. That's a little _too _rules-lite for me. 

Ideally my super hero game would be based on something like true20, but any fast-paced, rules-lite system could work, with the following caveats. One, it needs to feel like choices made during character creation are mechanically meaningful while being completely customizable. Two, the system needs to be designed such that story is never sacrificed at the expense of rules lawyering or number crunching (I'm looking at you, 3E prestige classes). Three, when dice are rolled, outcomes need to be variable, fun and fulfilling regardless of success or failure; after a school year of playing _Marvel Super Heroes_, rolls on the FASRIP chart became repetitive and dull. And, finally, it's a super hero game! The system needs to be equally fulfilling at street level and among the cosmos.

In sum, the system needs to have some gravitas without being overly complex. Anyone know a super hero RPG like that?


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## ffanxii4ever (Jan 20, 2010)

I don't know from personal experience, but maybe pick up Savage Worlds Explorer's Edition and the sourcebook Necessary Evil

If you don't know about it, Savage Worlds is a rules-lite generic system that alot of good things are said about, and Necessary Evil is the sourcebook for a supers game that the same company published for Explorer's Edition, though I am sure you can find another setting, or tweak the fluff if you want

Just my 2 c


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## ValhallaGH (Jan 20, 2010)

Take a look at Truth and Justice (at the bottom of the page).

_Very_ simple character creation, pretty straight-forward system, robust power set.  At least as accommodating as Savage Worlds' _Necessary Evil_ system-setting; not quite as accommodating as M&M (which isn't nearly as bad as 3E, but it has it's moments, especially if you want something more complicated than a bruiser-type).

Overall, I've been really impressed by it.  It's not my style (M&M 2E is) but it's very good.
** Atomic Sock Monkey - Products **


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## Silvercat Moonpaw (Jan 20, 2010)

ffanxii4ever said:


> I don't know from personal experience, but maybe pick up Savage Worlds Explorer's Edition and the sourcebook Necessary Evil
> 
> If you don't know about it, Savage Worlds is a rules-lite generic system that alot of good things are said about, and Necessary Evil is the sourcebook for a supers game that the same company published for Explorer's Edition, though I am sure you can find another setting, or tweak the fluff if you want
> 
> Just my 2 c



Savage Worlds now has its own Super Power Companion, so you can get super power rules without the Necessary Evil setting if you feel like it.
Savage Worlds Super Powers Companion - Pinnacle Entertainment | RPGNow.com


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## Sen Udo-Mal (Jan 20, 2010)

BASH Ultimite Edition is pretty cool and the art is great


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## scruffygrognard (Jan 21, 2010)

I'd go with [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Heroes-Role-Playing-Game-Special/dp/0966528034/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264033727&sr=8-3"]Blood of Heroes[/ame].  It has crappy production values (the art is atrocious) but is based on the awesome DC Heroes RPG... my favorite supers game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Heroes


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## ForceUser (Jan 21, 2010)

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I am perusing your suggestions. That said, anything that ties action resolution to a chart is right out. I hate referencing charts


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## Piratecat (Jan 21, 2010)

For what it's worth, I'd argue that MnM plays MUCH more smoothly than you might think. I just ran a 3 hour, 3 combat encounter PL10 game that didn't reference a rulebook or combat stats (for my bad guys) once. It was fast, cinematic, and incredibly easy to GM. Any game where I can keep every bad guy stat in my head is a game I want to play.

I'm happy to share some of the tips if that'd be useful.


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## Elric (Jan 21, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> For what it's worth, I'd argue that MnM plays MUCH more smoothly than you might think. I just ran a 3 hour, 3 combat encounter PL10 game that didn't reference a rulebook or combat stats (for my bad guys) once. It was fast, cinematic, and incredibly easy to GM. Any game where I can keep every bad guy stat in my head is a game I want to play.
> 
> I'm happy to share some of the tips if that'd be useful.




M&M is a great game and, as Piratecat says, it plays very smoothly.  I don't want to compete with Piratecat where gaming advice is concerned, but the following resources, many from M&M's official forums, may be useful:

M&M FAQ

Character Creation Examples: Minotaur (a Powerhouse) and Martial Artist (the core book archetype).  

Download a useful Excel Spreadsheet for building characters here.  You can find an Open Office character sheet here.

My Fight Examples (written from the perspective of the players and GM, so designed to help people understand the rules; these are less smooth than M&M actually plays, because I'm trying to be _very_ complete for the sake of teaching the rules)
Fight #1: X-Men vs. Brotherhood of Evil Mutants 
Fight #2: Avengers (Luke Cage, Black Widow, Beast) vs. White Knight

Taliesin's builds, a thread with a ton of (very high quality) conversions for M&M from every conceivable genre.

Edit: 
The Mutants & Mastermind's Beginner's Guide is now free on RPGNow and DriveThruRPG.  You have to register to download the book, but that only takes a minute.

Two notable errors:  Megastar's "Combat" stat-line is that of Bolt, duplicated by mistake.  His actual combat stats (from Freedom City) are supposed to be:
Combat: Attack +10 (melee), +8 (ranged), Grapple +26, Damage +10 (unarmed, Blast), Defense +9, Knockback –10, Initiative +1

The other error: the Guide states in more than one place that when already suffering a Staggered condition, a Bruised result on a Toughness Save will make the character Unconscious:



> Bruised: Mark a check or slash under the Bruised section of the damage track on character’s sheet. Each bruised mark subtracts 1 from the character’s further Toughness saving throws. A target that’s already staggered getting this result is knocked out; see Unconscious, following.
> 
> Staggered: The character is staggered: check off the Staggered box on the damage track on the character’s sheet. Any further damage—that is, any Toughness save less than the required DC, means the character is unconscious




The _Beginner's Guide_ is wrong. Both the M&M errata (1st/2nd printing) and a response from Steve Kenson (M&M's designer) confirm that only another Staggered result will lead to Unconsciousness.


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## ForceUser (Jan 21, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> I'm happy to share some of the tips if that'd be useful.



Sure, thanks. 

You, too, Elric.


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## mikelaff (Jan 21, 2010)

I love M&M (as well as supers20) -- but you said "rules-lite".

I can't really argue that either of those are rules-lite with a straight face. Compared to HERO System, sure. But my taxes are also rules-lite by that comparison.   (Granted - I don't itemize)

Based on the criteria you've offered - I'm going to offer a second vote for Truth and Justice

I haven't run a long campaign with it. But I've played two sessions with it -- and it was fun and fast. Even character creation was quick and easy (and there aren't many supers systems anywhere that can say that.)


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## ValhallaGH (Jan 21, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> I've been perusing _Mutants & Masterminds_, but I think there's too much going on there for me to bother with....
> Ideally my super hero game would be based on something like true20,




Given the second part, you should reconsider the first part.  Because True20 is a clunky version of M&M (I love True20 but I'm just saying what I see).

M&M 2E is one of the smoothest running RPGs I've ever come across.  It gets jarring in character creation, with some players coming to the game with preconceptions about mechanics (usually from other systems) or a stubborn unwillingness to try and learn the rules, but is actually pretty simple and fun in play.

Actions* are resolved with d20 + Stuff to hit, and d20 + Stuff to save and resist.

As a GM you only need to learn the rules in use (this goes double for powers).  It's nice if your system mastery includes all the powers because you can help PCs use unusual power-choices for the flavor they want, but it ain't necessary.  So, learn attack / defense (fairly simple, and I'm sure you're almost there), the save system (really simple, especially for someone that knows True 20), Knockback (damage minus knockback modifier; look at chart on page 70, that's how far people fly), and any powers that get used a lot (use bookmarks until you've learned them, no rush).
Scaling saves are always on the -5 model (-5 is worse, -10 is really worse, -15 is worst).  Not all saves scale.

The archetypes in the back of the book are great.  I ran some (18) Triad thugs the other night, who had no character sheets; all minions, a +3 attack with light pistols (+3 damage), a 13 Defense with a +2 Toughness (+1 flat-footed), and Fort +X, Ref +3, Will +1.  I flipped to the back of the book and noticed that the PL 3 Ninja archetype lined up in most places, so I just used those stats when I didn't already know what I wanted them to have.
Much fun and shooting of PCs was had.  Good times.

Most of the book needs to get referenced during character building; outside of that, just look up some mechanic you don't use often (Fearsome Presence, Mind Reading, and the Conditions list and the end of the yellow chapter, for me) when it comes up.


M&M has a lot of crunch, used to create characters.  It _plays_ like a rules-light RPG, which is the only way to _feel_ like a superhero game.


Good luck.

*Grapple, physical or mental, is an opposed check.  There are a few other opposed checks as well (power nullification, mind reading, power-countering checks).  These are fairly rare and very simple; ties go to the biggest bonus.  Some powers are Perception Range, or Area Effects, and don't require attack rolls.


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## pawsplay (Jan 21, 2010)

mikelaff said:


> I love M&M (as well as supers20) -- but you said "rules-lite".
> 
> I can't really argue that either of those are rules-lite with a straight face. Compared to HERO System, sure. But my taxes are also rules-lite by that comparison.   (Granted - I don't itemize)




I wouldn't even say that... less heavy maybe.


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## Piratecat (Jan 21, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> Sure, thanks.



ValhallaGH did a great job laying it out. Here's what I find myself needing to remember as a MnM GM:

- the only part of the system that's a genuine pain in the ass is character creation. Luckily, spreadsheets help with that, and it's a player-only thing. You don't need to worry about it as GM.

- NPCs and bad guys are spectacularly easy to pull out of your butt. Err, figuratively speaking. As minions Storminator was using "ninja 6!" - PL 6 ninjas who were +6 to hit, 16 Defense, had +6 saves, and did +6 damage. Then you throw a little variation in there based on what ninjas do: ramp up their stealth, and maybe up their defense by 2 while ratcheting down their toughness save the same amount. A good rule is that if it's too complicated to remember, I don't use it.

I did the same with "Incan mummies 8" last night. This system is really flexible. Base everything at the PL and adjust on the fly. A brute? Lower the defense and attack roll by 4, increase the toughness save and damage the same amount. A speedster? Raise defense, lower toughness. Then add whatever special effects you want. 

- As a GM you can hand out a hero point as GM fiat any time you want, so if your bad guy misses a PC you really wanted him to hit, toss over a hero point and you clobber him. This gives the GM strong narrative control while also giving the PCs a corresponding advantage. 

- As an effects-based system, your special effects can completely hide the underlying game mechanics. For instance, maybe the bad guy shoots fire or has tiny laser-shooting heliodrones or uses the power cosmic to blast -- but it's still just a blast, and uses the same game mechanics. If it's called for by the special effects, toss another mechanic in there (such as a smoke creature who also blinds you when he hits you unless you make a save, a grease blast that makes you slip, or what have you.) So long as I can picture what the villain and his powers look like, it's really easy for me to guess at the correct power and set it at the appropriate Power Level -- and there's no rules lawyering because the players might not even know what power you're using, only its effects.

- As in any cinematic, comic-booky system, combat needs to be really fast and fluid. That's something MnM does well. I keep combat moving and award action points for clever quips and cool actions.


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## ForceUser (Jan 21, 2010)

I'm glad to see the M&M love; in fact some friends of mine play M&M and they enjoy it. I am also thankful for any comments on that system, as I may use it in the future. I think I'm kind of burnt out on d20 systems, though, now that I think about it. 8 solid years of 3E kind of wore me out. 

Edit: PC's description of gameplay is enticing, however. I hate doing mechanical work. I'm a very fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants GM.


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## Silvercat Moonpaw (Jan 21, 2010)

If you want seat-of-your-pants lite-ness you should definitely try a system like Truth&Justice, Cartoon Action Hour: Season 2, or the newest version of HeroQuest.


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## Piratecat (Jan 21, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> I hate doing mechanical work. I'm a very fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants GM.



Yup, I am as well. 

MnM trumped Marvel SAGA as my go-to game for Supers. It can be really crunchy if you want it to be (hi, gadgeteers!) but it plays to every one of my strengths as a GM. Combat is really swingy, as it should be in a comic; heroes and villains can get temporarily stunned or staggered with a single bad toughness save, then come back to save the day, which definitely prevents boring fights and gives an essential use for action points.


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## TheWyrd (Jan 23, 2010)

One thing you might consider is looking at the M&M Annual #2, there is a 5(ish) page article on how to do M&M Lite. It isn't so much a lite version of mutants and masterminds as it is a stream lined version of character creation. 

I was going to run a legacies story arc for a game that died last year. In preperation I made a modified character creation guideline based on the Lite rules. You can see what I did here: Omega Legacies Guidelines | Darktouch.Net

M&M is a great game. Whenever the conversation turns to M&M 3e, all I ask for is a modified version of 2e with some better examples and an optional simplified character creation system.


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## Droogie (Jan 24, 2010)

If you want rules lite and you are truly sick of d20, M&M is not the game for you. Sure, it plays faster than traditional d20, but it still suffers from many of the D&Disms that probably gave you a headache from your 3.0 experiences such as ability score damage and piles upon piles of fiddly feats. There is a huge variety of powers, but it makes character gen a chore and its very easy to build a broken character if you aren't careful. Yes, you can find some good spreadsheets out there, but if you need a spreadsheet to prepare the game, it may not fit your definition of rules-lite. In my experience, I didn't find it as easy to run as i'd hoped. It almost felt like I was running a high level D&D game where everyone was a spellcaster. Granted, it could have been the pre-canned adventure i was running (lots of tough supervillains, not enough low-level mooks to thrash on) but I gradually stopped looking forward to game night as that familiar "D20 fatigue" began to claim me. I suggested we try a grittier, PL 6 "mystery men" type of game, but by then my players were soured on supers and ready to move on. 

I own a copy of Necessary Evil, but I haven't tried it. Most people claim it doesn't do high-powered supers well. 

I am hearing good things about BASH! Ultimate Edition.


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## ForceUser (Jan 24, 2010)

Droogie said:


> If you want rules lite and you are truly sick of d20, M&M is not the game for you.



D20 fatigue is a good way to phrase the way I feel about 3E. I'd be down with a supers game that ran on the 4E system, but alas, WotC hasn't made one.


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## ValhallaGH (Jan 24, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> I'd be down with a supers game that ran on the 4E system, but alas, WotC hasn't made one.



Are you sure about that?

That said, Truth & Justice (which I linked in my first post) is probably something you'd enjoy.  It's certainly worth looking at.

I understand d20 burn-out.  Taking breaks is important.  (I'm currently running M&M and a Trailblazer campaign, while playing in L5R and Deadlands: Hell on Earth; variety in gaming is important.)


Good luck.


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## Droogie (Jan 24, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> D20 fatigue is a good way to phrase the way I feel about 3E. I'd be down with a supers game that ran on the 4E system, but alas, WotC hasn't made one.




When i first got the M&M book several years ago, I was delighted how slick the system seemed compared to traditional D20. Years later, when I finally got to play it, I had already been exposed to 4e and Star Wars Saga. The concept of _defenses_ rather than _saving throws_ had spoiled me forever, among other things.  All i could think while running the game was how badly I wanted to divorce the system from "old" d20, but I will stop now before M&M fans break down my door and beat me up.


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## ValhallaGH (Jan 24, 2010)

Droogie said:


> I will stop now before M&M fans break down my door and beat me up.




Given how much you obviously desire this, we've decided that leaving you alone is greater torture.

Enjoy!


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## TheWyrd (Jan 24, 2010)

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a M&M purist anyway. Any time someone comes in to M&M and says "I like it, but I'd want to change X, Y, and Z." and expect the fans to get offended. The truth is that X, Y, and Z are probably already options in the Mastermind's Manual and the M&M fan is going to shrug and point them there for ways to do that in their game. Implementing static defenses rather than saves, best of two saves, and say a simplified skill system (called broad skills in the Mastermind's manual) is tremendously easy.


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## Droogie (Jan 24, 2010)

valhallagh said:


> given how much you obviously desire this, we've decided that leaving you alone is greater torture.
> 
> Enjoy!




nnoooooooooooooooooooo!


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## Eccles (Jan 26, 2010)

I'd agree with the person some distance above who suggested DC Heroes / Blood of Heroes. 2d10s and a big chart. Making the characters is an entertaining exercise, but once done it plays incredibly easily, and every single thing you might want to do boils down to an identical mechanic. Pick the right stats, roll 2d10, add the numbers, and look it up on the tables. 

Pow, sock, wham, etc...


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## ForceUser (Jan 26, 2010)

Eccles said:


> I'd agree with the person some distance above who suggested DC Heroes / Blood of Heroes. 2d10s and a big chart.



DC/BoH was right out once I saw that action resolution is tied to a chart. No way. 

I do like the d10s though.


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## epochrpg (Jan 28, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> Ideally my super hero game would be based on something like true20, but any fast-paced, rules-lite system could work, with the following caveats. One, it needs to feel like choices made during character creation are mechanically meaningful while being completely customizable. Two, the system needs to be designed such that story is never sacrificed at the expense of rules lawyering or number crunching (I'm looking at you, 3E prestige classes). Three, when dice are rolled, outcomes need to be variable, fun and fulfilling regardless of success or failure; after a school year of playing _Marvel Super Heroes_, rolls on the FASRIP chart became repetitive and dull. And, finally, it's a super hero game! The system needs to be equally fulfilling at street level and among the cosmos.
> 
> In sum, the system needs to have some gravitas without being overly complex. Anyone know a super hero RPG like that?




Yes.  BASH! Ultimate Edition.  

It is a fast-play simple supers game. It is a toolkit type system, but there are around 50 powers, not hundreds. You build a character with 20-60 points, not 250+.

The core mechanic is roll 2d6 and multiply by stat/skill/power. This is usually a multiplier between x1 and x10. If the dice rolls match, roll another d6. If that matches, keep rolling and adding more d6 before multiplying. This way, exploding dice make it possible for an underdog to beat someone with a large multiplier advantage. Some people don't like to multiply, so there are some alternatives given in the appendix, including Fudge dice among others. Obviously, you must have seen the dice-roll-chart from the back cover if you saw the preview-- so if you like colored charts, it has it. You simply roll the 2d6, see what you rolled, slide over to what your multiplier is, and find out your result. The color code will tell you if scored a typical, tough, heroic, etc result on your roll. The colored chart isn't needed, just something that I thought would appeal to the people that don't like the multiplying part, or fans of old-school.

All Heroes & Villains have 100 Hits, which work like hit points. Lesser characters (Minions) have between 10-50 Hits, and Heroes can plow through them several at a time. This keeps the action fast & furious. The difference between a big tough brick and a skinny mentalist isn't how many Hits they have, it's how much damage they soak with each hit.

There are 3 stats. Brawn, Agility, and Mind, rated 0-5. 0 is something far below normal parameters, while 2 is usually peak-human, and 5 is top tier for superheroes. Brawn is how strong & tough you are, Agility is how fast & coordinated, and Mind is how intelligent/magically gifted/psychic you are.

If you want more info, there is a preview here.  There is an in-depth review here and some shorter reviews here.  There is also my interview on The Rpg Haven podcast and Meanwhile... The Super Gaming Podcast that give some more in-depth info about the game.  The first printing is sold out, but the second print run should be shipping out to the warehouse tomorrow.  

If you want, I think a pretty easy way to get to understand the game would be for me to show how to build a character with it. Do you have an idea of a sort of character you'd want to make, or see made?  The game does everything from Pulp Mystery Men to Cosmic Beings- so please, be creative.

PS- there is a "Dice Roll Chart" but it isn't needed to play- it is just to help people with the multiplying.


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## ForceUser (Jan 28, 2010)

epochrpg said:


> If you want, I think a pretty easy way to get to understand the game would be for me to show how to build a character with it. Do you have an idea of a sort of character you'd want to make, or see made?  The game does everything from Pulp Mystery Men to Cosmic Beings- so please, be creative.



Sure! Let's do two. I'd say Captain America and Thor, but since it can be argued endlessly what their particular powers are, not to mention the fact that they are veteran heroes, let's say "a mortal hero like Captain America" and an "immortal hero like the Mighty Thor."


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## SSquirrel (Jan 28, 2010)

Not a currently produced game, but I always found Aberrant (the original Storyteller version, not the d20 revamp*) to be a very simple game.  Granted, I already had several years of experience w/the underlying system, but it would be simple to divorce Aberrant from the setting and just use the mechanics and powers for a game.  


* No offense intended to the guys who designed it cuz they read these boards, but it just felt like a completely different game.


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## epochrpg (Jan 28, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> Sure! Let's do two. I'd say Captain America and Thor, but since it can be argued endlessly what their particular powers are, not to mention the fact that they are veteran heroes, let's say "a mortal hero like Captain America" and an "immortal hero like the Mighty Thor."




Sure.  Why don't we also assume that they are part of the same team, being played by two different players in _the same 40-point campaign_.  
________________________________________________________________
*Patriotic Shield Leader*      23 Pts (12 stats 11 powers) 17 Hero Points, 5 "Team" Hero Points
*Brawn 2 Agility 2 Mind 2 *      12 Pts
_x3 Soak, x5 Defense, Reflect & Retaliate, x4 Mental Defense_

*Powers *
•	"Unobtainium" Shield: *Special Attack 4* [Enhancement: Variable; Limitation: Easily Taken Gadget] 4pts 
•	*Deflect 3* (x5 Defense) [Limitation: Stealable Gadget (the shield) 2pts 
•	Chainmail Weave: *Armor 1* (x3 Soak) 1pt 
•	*Fleet of Foot* (Run 8 squares, Jump 5 squares) 1pt 
•	*Martial Arts Mastery 2* (Tricky, Tough, Grappling Styles) 2pts
•	*Skillful *1pt 

*Skills*: Athletics/Acrobatics, Stealth/Hide, Military+1/Tactics, Investigation+1/Gut, Drive/Motorcycles, Pilot/Evasion
*Advantages*: Contacts (US Government), Never Surrender, Quick-Thinking, Leadership
*Disadvantages*: Normal, Outsider (originally from a bygone era, he missed a lot of history), Arch Enemy: Uber-Nazi!, Public ID
*Mental Malfunction*:' True Believer.  He takes his word, work, and his honor (and the honor of his Country) very seriously
_________________________________________________________________
*God of Thunder*      36 Pts (20 Stats, -2 Weakness, 18 Powers) 4 Hero Points
*Brawn 5 Agility 3 Mind 2 *
x7 Soak, x3 Defense, x4 Mental Defense

*Weakness*: If separated from his hammer for more than 1 minute, he loses all powers and reverts to his human form. Note that while most powers actually need him to use the hammer to work, the hammer does not count as an “Easily Taken” gadget, since nobody else can actually use it.  However, it can be trapped beyond his reach, making him vulnerable.  
*Powers*: 
•	Invulnerability: *Armor 2* (x7 Soak) 2pts 
•	*Resistance 2*: Half damage from Fire, Cold, Radiation, Poison 2pts 
•	Magic Hammer: *Special Attack 5* [Variable] 6pts 
•	*Flight 4* [Situational: Only while holding Hammer] 3pts 
•	North Wind: *Push 3* (x10 Knock-Back, in a Long Line) 3pts 
•	Virtuous: *Mind Shield 1* (x4 Mental Defense) [Limitation: only works against attempts to make him betray his friends, honor, etc] 1pt 
•	*Weather Mastery 3* [Limitation: Must continue holding hammer or weather disapates] 2pts 
•	*Dimensional Teleportation 1* (to realm of the gods) 1pt

*Advantages*: Appeal, Immortal, Alter Ego* , Instant Change
*Because it is inconvenient to have no access to the other Ego’s skills or abilities, and dangerous to lose powers in battle and become “normal”, this Advantage has no cost. 

*Disadvantages*: Arch Enemy: King of Evil Gods,  Normal (human form has B1 A1, and no powers), Outsider (medieval speech, poor understanding of technology)
*Thunder God Skills*: Athletics/Aerobatics, Occultism/Legends, Social Science/History
*Human Form Skills:* Drive/Steering, Medicine x3/Surgery
*Mental Malfunction*: Honor. The Thunder God takes his honor very seriously and is capable of being goaded into fighting or making foolish choices because of it.
_________________________________________________________________
To see how these two very different scale characters could function in the same team, you need to know a little about Hero Points and Hero Dice. 

Hero Points are spent to add to the results of dice rolls, each point giving a +1 bonus.  They can be spent after the roll is seen.  This means that an underdog like the Patriotic Shield Leader above has a good edge to use so that his character still can shine.  In addition, 5 Hero Points can be transformed into a Hero Die, which can have various different effects from "power stunts" to reviving from a status condition, to just adding to rolls.  The Patriotic Shield Leader also has an advantage called "Leadership" which lets him spend his own Hero points on the rolls of other characters- and when he does so, each point he spends counts as 2.  He also gets 5 free Hero Points that can only be spent on his team (the Team points).


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## ForceUser (Jan 28, 2010)

That's fantastic. Sold.


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## epochrpg (Jan 28, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> That's fantastic. Sold.




Cool!  The website has links to where the PDF is available.  If you are interested in hardcopy, the shipment of books left the printer this morning, and is on its way to IPR's warehouse and a smaller shipment coming directly to me.  If your FLGS does business with IPR, you should be able to order it through them, if not IPR directly.  I should have the listing for the print+pdf up on IPR tonight.


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## ValhallaGH (Jan 28, 2010)

Intrigued.  Definitely taking a look at this one.


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## coyote6 (Jan 29, 2010)

Yeah, I noticed a couple of BASH games at DunDraCon next month; I will have to try to get in one, to try it out.


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## epochrpg (Jan 29, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> Yeah, I noticed a couple of BASH games at DunDraCon next month; I will have to try to get in one, to try it out.




Yes, me too!  This will be the first time there is somebody I don't know running the game (the Venture Bros. one).  I'm excited to check it out.  Mine is the other one on the schedule.


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## coyote6 (Jan 29, 2010)

Yeah, I was looking at the Team Venture one, in particular. There are a couple of other games I'm interested in that are in slots that overlap with the Saturday game, which I guess you'll be running. 

In either case, maybe I'll see you there, then (depending on the vagaries of DDC's wacky lottery system & overlapping slots).


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## Sen Udo-Mal (Jan 30, 2010)

Yea BASH! UE  
I really love the outlook, layour and artwork in the UE and of course the rules are very cool and just the right level for superhero gaming (and I am a fan of M&M 2nd ed. also but sometimes there are few to many rules for every game)


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## Rolflyn (Feb 5, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> - the only part of the system that's a genuine pain in the ass is character creation. Luckily, spreadsheets help with that, and it's a player-only thing. You don't need to worry about it as GM.




I find that the ability for any character to gain feats and powers via hero points makes M&M very hard to play.  Where is the list of feats I can gain again?  What power can I have? What extras?  It is as if you are constantly remaking your character.

Also, copy powers mean that the GM has to have villains statted up.  And this applies to a lesser extent to drain, nullify, boost (for allies), etc.

But actually, I haven't gotten out of character creation because the system is so easily abused the GM has to be constantly involved, and a beginner GM has little to compare to.  The most I've been able to do with M&M is run sample combats with the standard characters while ignoring spending hero points to gain feats and powers.

What am I doing wrong?  I want to like M&M, but it seems very rule intense on both sides of the screen.


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## Elric (Feb 5, 2010)

Rolflyn said:


> Also, copy powers mean that the GM has to have villains statted up.  And this applies to a lesser extent to drain, nullify, boost (for allies), etc.




It's not that hard to wing ranks on the spot: 10 ranks in Blast, 5 ranks in Flight, 10 ranks in Force Field for a PL 10 energy controller, for example.



> But actually, I haven't gotten out of character creation because the system is so easily abused the GM has to be constantly involved, and a beginner GM has little to compare to.




This is definitely a problem.  M&M isn't a game where the GM can take a hands off approach, and certainly isn't one where players are expected to "do your worst."  Here is 
an excellent thread on M&M's official boards on balance issues in the PL system (read the first two posts, and the examples linked at the end of the second post, in particular), which is the best discussion of its kind that I've seen.



> The most I've been able to do with M&M is run sample combats with the standard characters while ignoring spending hero points to gain feats and powers.
> 
> What am I doing wrong?  I want to like M&M, but it seems very rule intense on both sides of the screen.




The use of a hero point to gain a feat or power feat (including an Alternate Power) for a round can slow the game down.  Two things to remember: first, a character needs a rationale for what they can power stunt.  Cyclops using his eye beams to read minds is probably out.  Second, gaining a feat/power feat for a round typically isn't a great use of HP compared to other hero point uses (e.g., reroll, shake off a stunned condition, double dodge bonus to defense for a round).  

It's unlikely there are a lot of feats you didn't take that you'll want to gain regularly with hero points, with the particular exception of strong feats where having it all the time wouldn't fit the character concept (e.g., Power Attack).


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## epochrpg (Feb 5, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> That's fantastic. Sold.




Well, I just checked and  *Basic Action Super Heroes: Ultimate Edition* is now available as a Print + PDF bundle on the Indie Press Revolution website.  $25 dollars gets you a printed book and pdf (essentially, we're throwing in the pdf for free with your printed copy).

If your FLGS does orders with IPR, you may be able to order it through them as well.


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Feb 5, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> I've been perusing _Mutants & Masterminds_, but I think there's too much going on there for me to bother with. I just left 3E for 4E D&D and I'm not thrilled about going back to the standard d20 system and all of its crunchy numbers for a supers game. But the system can't be _Marvel Super Heroes _either, which I played in high school and which is essentially one chart and a couple d10s. That's a little _too _rules-lite for me.
> 
> Ideally my super hero game would be based on something like true20, but any fast-paced, rules-lite system could work, with the following caveats. One, it needs to feel like choices made during character creation are mechanically meaningful while being completely customizable. Two, the system needs to be designed such that story is never sacrificed at the expense of rules lawyering or number crunching (I'm looking at you, 3E prestige classes). Three, when dice are rolled, outcomes need to be variable, fun and fulfilling regardless of success or failure; after a school year of playing _Marvel Super Heroes_, rolls on the FASRIP chart became repetitive and dull. And, finally, it's a super hero game! The system needs to be equally fulfilling at street level and among the cosmos.
> 
> In sum, the system needs to have some gravitas without being overly complex. Anyone know a super hero RPG like that?




Wild Talents.  Greatest dice system ever, IMNSHO... You can get the full 2nd edition for 50, or the Essential Edition for 10 plus a free copy of the pdf at www.arcdream.com 

My favorite supers game of all time.  It's not overly crunchy at all, you can design any power you can think of without the messy number crunchy math excercises that Hero and MnM make you do.  It's versatile, combat is fast, can be gritty at times, and its point-based so no classes to dink around with.  

Great game.


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Feb 5, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> Given how much you obviously desire this, we've decided that leaving you alone is greater torture.
> 
> Enjoy!




Bring them on, I hate MnM as a supers game, one of the most boring games of all time for me... and I've tried it, 1st and 2nd editions, I just can't stand it.  1st edition was way better than 2nd, I'll say that much about it.  MnM is probably one of my least favorite rpgs of all time.  

And I love supers games, they are my favorite genre.  Give me Hero System, wild Talents, BASH, DC Heroes, d6 Powers, Truth and Justice, FASERIP Marvel, Silver Age Sentinels d20/Tri-Stat, Heroes Unlimited was even way better than MnM.  

I have my Force Field of fan retaliation around my apartment to ward off any upset MnM fans


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## Elric (Feb 5, 2010)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> I have my Force Field of fan retaliation around my apartment to ward off any upset MnM fans




De gustibus non est disputandum (there's no accounting for taste )


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Feb 5, 2010)

Elric said:


> De gustibus non est disputandum (there's no accounting for taste )




lmao that's so funny    omg we gotta love it don't we


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## Silvercat Moonpaw (Feb 5, 2010)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> I just can't stand it.  1st edition was way better than 2nd.....



This is an intriguing statement to one who has never experienced 1st edition and who has mostly heard about it a few times on people liked the change and has read the conversion document and thinks the changes made for better balance.  Care to elaborate?


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## Silvercat Moonpaw (Feb 5, 2010)

Elric said:


> De gustibus non est disputandum (there's no accounting for taste )





Stacie GmrGrl said:


> lmao that's so funny    omg we gotta love it don't we



In some cases taste may just be based on what you believe you can get away with.  I use M&M because I know people are likely enough to have it that if I recruit for a game somewhere I'll get players.  Seeing the systems with less rules (like BASH) I'd rather use them, except I'd rather have a guarantee then comfort.

In other cases you can learn to put up with a system's excentricities.  People say that's what they do with HERO's math.  For me I've learned to play RPGs without rules, so GM fiat cowers before my mighty acceptance of arbitrary happenings.


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 5, 2010)

Rolflyn said:


> What am I doing wrong?  I want to like M&M, but it seems very rule intense on both sides of the screen.



From the sound of your post you're saying "No" too much.
Elric's reply is good and should be very helpful.


More than most RPGs, superhero games require a social contract.  Everyone has to agree on the genre, the types of characters, and to play a character that fits.

Once you get that agreement, most of the rest of it will fall into place.  And the GM will be able to say "Yes" most of the time.


Regarding Hero Points: They are extremely powerful. I've actually limited Luck to 1, maximum, forcing my players to rely upon role-play awarded Hero Points to use them.  As such, I can be generous while still having foes that can be meaningfully threatening (to better fit the tone of my campaign).
Heroic Feat has been the _least_ game-breaking option.  The occasional Improved Critical just makes battles shorter.  The Recovery Check option has probably been the one that has most screwed up my fun (and is the main reason I don't allow multiple Luck feats).  I'll also note that the Power Stunt is an effect of _Extra Effort_, not hero points, making it available to any character, regardless of how many Hero Points they may have.  Bonus, the fatigue imposes a real cost that makes my players reluctant to use it.
And, finally, anything the players attempt must get GM approval.  So, there's always the GM test, no matter what.

Regarding Mimic and Nemesis: both of these powers require a ton of work on the player's side.  Any single use effectively rewrites entire sections of the character sheet.  As such, I've strongly advised all my players to stay away from them, for their own fun and enjoyment.
I already stat up super-villain enemies fully, when I'm not using existing ones from the setting.  As such, telling them what's available (and the rank it's at) is no stretch for me.
Using those enemies is just as much work for me as for the players.  As such, I stay away from them for my own ease and enjoyment; I could run one, and probably will sometime soon, but mimics are too ill-defined to have a good theme and plot hooks.  Also, a Mimic is only as powerful as what he's mimicking; if the only thing around is a geriatric security guard then he's not much of a threat.


Good luck.


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## Sadrik (Feb 5, 2010)

ForceUser said:


> In sum, the system needs to have some gravitas without being overly complex. Anyone know a super hero RPG like that?




_Savage Worlds_ and the new _Supers Companion_ will be your best bet. If you are looking for a twisty campaign setting grab _Necessary Evil_.


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## Elric (Feb 5, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> I'll also note that the Power Stunt is an effect of _Extra Effort_, not hero points, making it available to any character, regardless of how many Hero Points they may have.  Bonus, the fatigue imposes a real cost that makes my players reluctant to use it.




The Heroic Feat option can give you a power feat, and Alternate Power is a power feat.  So there are two ways to gain a Power Stunt.  Note that if you weren't planning to use Extra Effort in a round, gaining a Power Stunt through it has the slight advantage that you don't suffer the fatigue until a round later, which you can then avoid with a hero point, while with the Heroic feat function you lose the HP right away.



> Regarding Mimic and Nemesis: both of these powers require a ton of work on the player's side.  Any single use effectively rewrites entire sections of the character sheet.  As such, I've strongly advised all my players to stay away from them, for their own fun and enjoyment.




Nemesis is a particular pain in the neck as a GM because you have to come up with what powers the character would gain for each villain; at Nemesis that gives 25 pp, for example, you'll probably have to pre-stat this because it's too hard to come up with on the spot.  So I definitely recommend avoiding Nemesis.



> I already stat up super-villain enemies fully, when I'm not using existing ones from the setting.  As such, telling them what's available (and the rank it's at) is no stretch for me.




A good thing to remember when statting up villains is that for NPCs, how many power points they cost doesn't matter.  Steve Kenson addresses this in Ultimate Power (pg 206):



			
				Ultimate Power said:
			
		

> HOW MANY POINTS FOR THAT MASTERMIND? Even if you prefer to rein-in players with a limited budget of power points for creating their heroes, there’s something to keep in mind when coming up with your own villains and non-player characters: it doesn’t matter how many points they cost! That may seem like an incredibly obvious statement to some, but it’s easy to get caught up in the process of designing characters, taking and spending that imaginary budget like a kind of shopping spree. Now, if building characters from scratch and making them balance is your idea of a good time, more power to you. Mutants & Masterminds offers you the tools to build to your heart’s delight.
> 
> On the other hand, some beleaguered Gamemasters find they don’t have the kind of free time they once did, and creating legions of super- villains from scratch and adding up their points costs, checking and re-checking figures, is more trouble than it’s worth. For those of you in that category, embrace the freedom that is available to you by ignoring point-costs when it comes to your characters. Presumably, you’re building them with an eye towards a particular power level anyway in order to challenge your players, so just do that and don’t worry about how much it all costs in the end.


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 5, 2010)

Elric said:


> A good thing to remember when statting up villains is that for NPCs, how many power points they cost doesn't matter.




So very true.  
However, it can matter if the power has a Fade or other effect that deducts from the available power points.  It also matters when the power is being copied by a PC, since they only have so many power points to work with.

While the budget is unlimited, it can matter how you spent it.


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## coyote6 (Feb 5, 2010)

That's one of the reasons I dislike PC power mimics.


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## Rolflyn (Feb 5, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> From the sound of your post you're saying "No" too much. Elric's reply is good and should be very helpful.




So it sounds like M&M isn't the game for our group.  I concede that you clearly know the rules much better than I do.  But I'm looking for a rules-light game, not one where players have to scour the book for point costs or potential feats to take, especially during play.  Any suggestions on a game that could be played straight away, without all that studying?


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Feb 5, 2010)

SilvercatMoonpaw2 said:


> This is an intriguing statement to one who has never experienced 1st edition and who has mostly heard about it a few times on people liked the change and has read the conversion document and thinks the changes made for better balance. Care to elaborate?




Sure thing...  All about Power Scale for me.

I don't mean Power levels or power ranks, but what each rank number means.  Here it is in a nutshell.

MnM 1st edition is Marvel 
MnM 2nd edition is DC 

They ramped up the power scales across the board, DC Heroes is really cosmic in feel.  Marvel Supers is more low key, more earthbound to me, not so much cosmic.  In first edition, and I'm just tossing numbers out without books in front of me, but its like a PL 10 power in second edition is like 3 or 4 times more powerful than that same PL 10 power in first edition, it's just bigger.  They made everything in 2nd edition bigger.  I didn't like that every average, starting character was already so epic in power scale.  Hence, the Marvel/DC analogy.

I also liked that in first edition your primary stats stopped at 20, human potential maxxed, and then to get a Super Strength it was literally from a power called Super Strength, and it increasess your Strength modifier instead of your strength stat.  I liked that more, it was just easier for me.  This also meant that your combat stats were more linked to your Abilities, and I personally like that.  In 2nd edition they are split from each other, and I can't understand that.  And in 2nd edition I can't get around the Power Level constraints in some aspects of the game, but  not others...some powers are limited by PL, some are not.  IMO, they made 2nd edition to rigid and structured, and less fun.

Building Powers, for me, was also a little easier in first edition.  Not as many fiddly bits to look at or build powers with, and yet it was just as versatile to me.  

The one thing they did do better in 2nd edition is Complications, and how Equipment is handled with the Equipment/Gear power, and how Hero Points go up incrementally through a session.  I like those bits.  However, ovverall, to me, MnM and both editions, are not that good.

That's why I love Hero system.  not meant to be a thread hijack at all, just saying why.  Hero system doesn't use Power Level as a determiner.  What it uses is a Power Limitation during character creation where no power can be built with a total number of points determined by the GM.  So if she says, Make any power you want, but no single power can be build with more than 60 Active Points, then I'm limited, but to me its more free than saying, Power Level 10.  Idk why it is, but for me, Hero's internal logic just makes more sense to me.  It's limited by total amount of points you can have in a single power.  Mutants and Masterminds doesn't do that, and if it tried it would seriously break the system because of how rigid it is structured.


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## Silvercat Moonpaw (Feb 6, 2010)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> I also liked that in first edition your primary stats stopped at 20, human potential maxxed, and then to get a Super Strength it was literally from a power called Super Strength, and it increasess your Strength modifier instead of your strength stat.  I liked that more, it was just easier for me.  This also meant that your combat stats were more linked to your Abilities, and I personally like that.  In 2nd edition they are split from each other, and I can't understand that.  And in 2nd edition I can't get around the Power Level constraints in some aspects of the game, but  not others...some powers are limited by PL, some are not.  IMO, they made 2nd edition to rigid and structured, and less fun.



I think they were trying to move away from so many things being linked.

PL makes it so I know there's a maximum level of power so I don't have to watch out for it and can gauge it better.


Stacie GmrGrl said:


> That's why I love Hero system.  not meant to be a thread hijack at all, just saying why.  Hero system doesn't use Power Level as a determiner.  What it uses is a Power Limitation during character creation where no power can be built with a total number of points determined by the GM.  So if she says, Make any power you want, but no single power can be build with more than 60 Active Points, then I'm limited, but to me its more free than saying, Power Level 10.  Idk why it is, but for me, Hero's internal logic just makes more sense to me.  It's limited by total amount of points you can have in a single power.  Mutants and Masterminds doesn't do that, and if it tried it would seriously break the system because of how rigid it is structured.



What's to stop someone from pouring those points into one simple power dialed up to max?  To put it in M&M terms what stops them from buying Damaging Power Rank X where the power costs 1 pp/rank and they buy as many ranks as they are allowed points?

PL in M&M is just a guideline to keep that in line, and you can always ignore the guidelines if you want to in your game.


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## Elric (Feb 6, 2010)

> And in 2nd edition I can't get around the Power Level constraints in some aspects of the game, but  not others...some powers are limited by PL, some are not.  IMO, they made 2nd edition to rigid and structured, and less fun.




PL in 2nd edition is much more geared towards being a limit on combat traits than 1e PL was.  This is especially true since 2e PL is descriptive for NPCs based on their traits.  What's a typical bonus to defense and Toughness on a PL 10 character?  In 2nd edition, it's +10 to each.  In first edition, it's unclear.

In first edition, the PL limit included non-combat abilities as well (e.g., Flight speed would be limited by your PL of ranks in Flight).


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Feb 6, 2010)

SilvercatMoonpaw2 said:


> I think they were trying to move away from so many things being linked.
> 
> PL makes it so I know there's a maximum level of power so I don't have to watch out for it and can gauge it better.
> 
> ...




Because in Hero System you can only put so many points into a single power, and if the GM says, "No single power of yours can be built with more than 60 points," then that's it. Plus, in Hero system, all the power effects are designed around this, and any power built up to 60 points, whatever it is, is more or less, equal to each other in scale. Not so in MnM.

I understand why MnM went the way of Power Level, to mimic the strucutral class foundation of the d20 system...and that is what it does. Each Power level limits how many ranks you can have in different things, just like a class level does. Sure the game is technically "class less" but its not, they just hide it well.  MnM is still built on the same class limitations with class levels that limit how much of what you can have.

It's point based, within the class paradigm of structural limitations.  In a way its exactly the kind of game i always wanted to play, and yet I can't stand it.  There's just something about it that bugs me.

It plays fast and smooth, it does simulate comic books, it does what it achieves to do, for the most part, there are a lot of neat things you can do in it, but at the end of the day, its not for me.  I can't stand it.


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## coyote6 (Feb 6, 2010)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> Because in Hero System you can only put so many points into a single power, and if the GM says, "No single power of yours can be built with more than 60 points," then that's it. Plus, in Hero system, all the power effects are designed around this, and any power built up to 60 points, whatever it is, is more or less, equal to each other in scale. Not so in MnM.




I don't think that's exactly true of Hero; 60 pts in RKA (4d6 RKA, unless it's 2.5d6 AP RKA) is not the same as, say, 60 pts in Desolidification (Desolid, No END), or 60 pts in Damage Reduction (and I've completely forgotten the point structure of the power, and I'm pretty sure it's changed every edition). 

Now, 60 pts in RKA should be about the same as 60 pts in EB -- but it's not even the same as 60 pts in a HtH normal damage attack.

Of course, Hero has Damage Classes as an additional limit (at least through 5th ed.; I haven't read 6e) for attacks, which helps avoid having a 4d6 RKA vs. a 20d6 powerpunch. It also recommends setting limits on defensive values, too, as I recall.



Stacie GmrGrl said:


> I understand why MnM went the way of Power Level, to mimic the strucutral class foundation of the d20 system...and that is what it does. Each Power level limits how many ranks you can have in different things, just like a class level does.




It doesn't limit everything, though. Primarily, all it limits are combat stats (attack, damage, saves) and skill totals (via skill ranks and ability bonuses). The combat stuff is more-or-less the same sort of limitations as Hero suggests GMs impose. 

The limits on skills are there to keep people from doing obnoxious things, IMHO (like buying Diplomacy +100 and trying to argue that you can talk anyone into being your friend), and because skills can become combat traits (inherent to the skill, like Bluff, or via feat, like Acrobatics + Acrobatic Bluff). 

Also, PL is strictly a limit for PCs; for NPCs, PL is descriptive (you make up an NPC, then figure out what PL he is -- just like you make up an NPC in Hero, then you know how many active points he has in his powers, DCs, etc.), and for PCs it's just a cap. In D&D, level tells you something about how powerful a PC must be -- because every level gives attack bonus, hit points, saves, etc., so there's a minimum value of combat power. In M&M, I can say, "make up 170 pt PL11 PCs", and a player can make up a character that's actually about PL 6, thanks to low combat values & skills. Spent all those points on wacky mobility powers and every skill, maybe. 

From my POV, M&M is as much a class-and-level game as Hero is. They're just different games, so of course they feel different.


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## Aus_Snow (Feb 6, 2010)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> I understand why MnM went the way of Power Level, to mimic the strucutral class foundation of the d20 system...and that is what it does.



No, it isn't.



> Each Power level limits how many ranks you can have in different things, just like a class level does.



That's not how class levels work, in class+level systems.



> Sure the game is technically "class less" but its not, they just hide it well.  MnM is still built on the same class limitations with class levels that limit how much of what you can have.



M&M does not have classes. Or levels. Simple as that.



> In a way its exactly the kind of game i always wanted to play, and yet I can't stand it.  *There's just something about it that bugs me.*



Really? Hadn't noticed. 



> It plays fast and smooth, it does simulate comic books, it does what it achieves to do, for the most part, there are a lot of neat things you can do in it, but at the end of the day, its not for me.  I can't stand it.



Oh well. 

As you mentioned, there are so many alternatives, most of which you seem to like! So hey, no worries for you.

FWIW, I've used M&M a few times, but never for supers. So, strictly speaking, I don't know how it goes as a supers RPG. It's amazingly flexible, simple and fun for other stuff though, IME.


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## Aus_Snow (Feb 6, 2010)

More in line with the OP, and the thread proper, I've heard good things about BASH, as a rules-lite(r) supers RPG.


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## epochrpg (Feb 6, 2010)

Aus_Snow said:


> More in line with the OP, and the thread proper, I've heard good things about BASH, as a rules-lite(r) supers RPG.




I think the OP actually may have picked it up.  Kinda wondering if it was what s/he wanted.


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 6, 2010)

Rolflyn said:


> So it sounds like M&M isn't the game for our group.



That could be.  I concede that you clearly know your group better than I do.  I hope it works out for you.


> But I'm looking for a rules-light game, not one where players have to scour the book for point costs or potential feats to take, especially during play.  Any suggestions on a game that could be played straight away, without all that studying?



One of the Marvel or DC supers games where you play their characters using the starter kit.  No character building, no searching for powers, feats, or point costs, and especially not during play.
Bonus, both companies have something like seven editions, each of which uses wildly different rules than the other editions.

The only real downside, for many of them, is that it is difficult to play a hero of your own creation as opposed to one of theirs.  Character creation rules get extremely vague in some of those books.  
Which, thankfully, is irrelevant to you and yours since you don't want to scour a book for abilities and costs, anyway.

...
I was going to suggest Truth & Justice or BASH! but both of those have point costs and lists of abilities to sort through.  Not your thing, apparently.  Hmmm.  Maybe something completely narrative?

Oh!  I've got it.

VGH's Super-Lite Super-System:
Characters have 20 points of "stats".  These stats are various qualities the character has (smart, pretty, bookworm, physicist, super-strength, invulnerable, tough, dodgy, good climber, party girl, frat boy, ugly as sin, Damn Dirty Ape, etc).
Each stat is Rated (Poor, Average, Good, Great, Excellent, Outstanding), and starts at Average for 0 points.  Increasing is one point per quality.
To resolve stuff, roll 2d6, add the bonus for all relevant stats, and compare to a target number set by the GM.  Most of these should be between 3 (foolproof) and 15 (Inconceivable!).  (foolproof 3, easy 5, fair 7, tough 9, hard 11, impossible 13, inconceivable 15).
Any time the character is involved in a task and suffers a setback (combat damage, embarrassing faux pas, etc) they have to temporarily lower a stat of their choice by 1 level.  When they hit "Poor" in all stats they are out of the scene (K.O.ed, drinking in the closet, leave the party, or whatever fits the scene) unless something brings them back into it.
For combats, witty banter can be as effective as a fist to the face, at least against the socially defenseless.

I feel like some kind of hero point system needs to exist, but I've only had this idea for the length of this post.  Maybe something that lets you restore a stat, or reroll the 2d6, or something similar.
Will that do you?



Regardless, good luck, and I hope you find something that you and yours will enjoy playing.


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## Silvercat Moonpaw (Feb 6, 2010)

A question on BASH: How does it do skills?  Is it mostly for characters with awesome stuff, or could it do completely unpowered characters (by that I mean characters that only use skills and normal equipment, no super-gadgets)?


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## epochrpg (Feb 6, 2010)

SilvercatMoonpaw2 said:


> A question on BASH: How does it do skills?  Is it mostly for characters with awesome stuff, or could it do completely unpowered characters (by that I mean characters that only use skills and normal equipment, no super-gadgets)?




I'll address this in parts:

It does skills by "slots". Your Agility is the base # of "physical" skill slots, Mind is the base # of Mental skill slots. Your multiplier with each is also based on the stat- but doubling up 2 slots in one skill would increase your multiplier. You also get a "specialty" for each skill- which entitles you to roll twice, take the better for a specific use of that skill- and you could also spend slots on more specialties as well. There is an "intense training" category of powers (more on that in a bit) that has a power called "Skillful"- each point in it gives 2 more skill slots. There is an Advantage called "Jack of All Trades" which lowers the penalty for "defaulting" with a skill from -1 Multiplier to -1 Dice penalty (so you could make a total polyglot who can do everything). 

Now I think what you're asking, is can the game do characters with normal equipment and no super-human powers- and still make said characters bad@$$ enough to be on the same team as other people who do?  Yes. 

The "Normal" disadvantage means you have a max of 2 Brawn and 2 Agility- and the only powers you can have that are not from gadgets are from the intense Training category. And, yes, you could make a character who is very competant this way- even without gadgets. You could make a guns blazing anti-hero, a sword/escrima sticks toting vigilante, or someone who is just the best martial artist in the world for instance. You could make the world's greatest detective, or a boxer from the mean streets- and these characters can be on a team with super-powered folks and still be useful.


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## epochrpg (Feb 6, 2010)

Now, such a character will likely have a lower character point value- like 20-25 points- but that is ok.  The system has a mechanic for dealing with this called "Hero Points"- the character who has the lower character point value gets more Hero points- and an animated series /teen heroes style game has the option of doubling the number of starting Hero points to make the disparities even more managable.  Hero Points can be spent to augment dice rolls- and 5 can be spent for a Hero Die- which can do many things from auto-succeeding on a skill check, to granting an interupt action, allowing your character to suddenly show up in a scene you weren't in, recover from unconciousness or status conditions, power stunts [although a "normal" character with no gadgets would be somewhat limited in what they could explain as a power stunt- like "Now I remember that Judo Move Captain Liberty taught me" or "I think my Helecopter piloting lessons are about to pay off" or "I noticed a vulnerable spot in the Robot's armor"] and of course augment dice rolls.  The exploding dice explode a lot more often and explode a lot bigger when a Hero Die is involved.

I'll post a build of a couple "no powers costumed heroes" in a little while.


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## epochrpg (Feb 6, 2010)

Let's assume this character is in a 30pt campaign: 

*Kung-Fu Socialite*   21 Pts (12 stat, 9 powers) 9 Hero Points, 1 Hero Die

*Brawn 2 Agility 2 Mind 2	*       (12pts)
_x1 Soak, x3 Soak vs. Unarmed, x2 Defense, x4 Defense vs. Hand-to-Hand attacks, Tricky Defense, x3 Priority, _

*Powers* (9pts)
*Fleet of Foot* (8 sq run, 2sq jump) 1pt
*Unarmed Technique 2* (x3 Hit, x3 Dmg) 2pts
*Attack Weak Point* (Double damage when she hits by 20, Spend a Hero point to make Attack roll also used for Damage Roll) 2pts
*Martial Arts Mastery 3*: Defensive, Fast, Grappling, Tough & Tricky styles, 3pts
o	Tough Style: +2 Soak Multiplier vs Unarmed Attacks
o	Tricky Style benefit: successful defense of hand-to-hand attack by rolling doubles allows you to counter-attack, using the defense roll as your attack. 
o	Fast Style: x3 Priority, Kippup immediately when you fall with 20 Athletics/Acrobatic check
o	Grappling Style: Brawn = 2 for wrestling rolls, get reversals by 10
o	Defensive Style: x4 Defense vs. Unarmed
*Paired Weapons*- 2 attacks per page w/ unarmed 1pt

*Skills*: Athletics x3/Acrobatics, Investigation x2/Questioning, 
Deception x2/Manipulation

*Advantages*: Appeal (x4 for social rolls), Never Surrender
*Disadvantages*:  Normal, Public ID


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## Silvercat Moonpaw (Feb 6, 2010)

Hmmm, I'll definitely have to consider it next time I can afford.


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## epochrpg (Feb 6, 2010)

*Jaded Soldier of Fortune*  22pts (12 stat, 10 powers), 8 Hero Points.
_"Life is a Joke"_

*Brawn 2 Agility 2 Mind 2*	    (12 pts)
x3 Soak, x4 Soak vs. Unarmed, 

*Powers:*    (10pts)
Kevlar: *Armor 1* 1pt
*Martial Arts Mastery 2* (Tough, Tricky, Grappling Styles) 2pts
*Firearms Technique 2* (+1 Hit [x3] +1DM) 2pts
*Off-hand Shooting *(-2 Dice penalty hit, fire a second pistol) 2pts
*Double Taps * (don’t move—fire weapon twice, stacks with above power) 1pt
*Attack Weapon Point* 2pts

*Equipment*
Boot Knife: x1+10 Dmg
Two .45 Pistols (x3 hit, x3 Dmg, Range 10) Ammo 6 each
Submachinegun (x3 hit, x5 Dmg, Range 20, Full Auto capable) Ammo 10 each
Sniper Rifle (x3 Hit, x6 Dmg, Range 40+) Ammo 1
Hand-Grenades (Medium Burst, Range 10, x5 Dmg)

*Skills*
Military x2/Demolitions, Stealth x2/Prowl, Drive x2/Pursuit, Pilot x2/Pursuit

*Advantages*: Security Clearance: US Gov (CIA, NSA, US Army, etc), also allows him to use "restricted" weapons like hand-grenades, etc.   
Lethal Weapons (Unarmed attacks can do lethal damage)
*Disadvantage*: Normal, Age (55 years old)

Note: This character is rated as an "Anti-Hero".


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## coyote6 (Feb 6, 2010)

SilvercatMoonpaw2 said:


> Hmmm, I'll definitely have to consider it next time I can afford.




A version of BASH was included with DTRPG's Haiti bundle, so if you donated/bought that, you have a version waiting to be downloaded. I think it's the "BASH (New and Improved)" edition, versus "BASH Ultimate Edition".

I mention it because, if you're like me, you haven't had time to download all the PDFs from that bundle (there were, what, a hundred? more?).


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 6, 2010)

epochrpg said:


> There is an "intense training" category of powers (more on that in a bit) that has a power called "Skillful"- each point in it gives 2 more skill slots. There is an Advantage called "Jack of All Trades" which lowers the penalty for "defaulting" with a skill from -1 Multiplier to -1 Dice penalty (so you could make a total polyglot who can do everything).



So that's what I missed when I posted my review.

[off topic] For the record, I found all your examples of how to get my damage multipliers (pages 18 & 19, as well as the specific attack listings).  What was lacking was confirmation that 2d6 was the base roll that all those multipliers applied to.  I thought that information would be included in the Damage And Soak section, but that just confirms that you roll 2d6 to resist damage without saying how that damage was generated.  In fact, I can't re-locate the part where the rules tell me to roll 2d6, apply dice bonuses, then apply my Damage Multiplier to determine the damage of a landed attack.  It's most frustrating, since most of the rule set is clean, simple, and clear while still having depth and breadth to work with.
It's a minor individual point, but my reading (a skimming perusal, which tends to be the only way for me to read gaming books without falling unconscious) has found it to be endemic to the way the book was written.  One of the few things holding it back from a full five stars. [/off topic]


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## epochrpg (Feb 6, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> A version of BASH was included with DTRPG's Haiti bundle, so if you donated/bought that, you have a version waiting to be downloaded. I think it's the "BASH (New and Improved)" edition, versus "BASH Ultimate Edition".
> 
> I mention it because, if you're like me, you haven't had time to download all the PDFs from that bundle (there were, what, a hundred? more?).




The irony is that now, the "new and improved" BASH is actually the original (I updated the game about 2 weeks after I started selling it on Rpgnow, adding the chase scene rules and calling the file "New and Improved" so people would know it was updated- so the very first original game was only around for like 2 weeks). 

So the "New and Improved" BASH is actually 5 years old, and BASH UE is a new, improved edition of the game. I probably should change the name of the original file to say "classic" or "original edition" instead of "New and Improved".


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## epochrpg (Feb 6, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> So that's what I missed when I posted my review.
> 
> [off topic] For the record, I found all your examples of how to get my damage multipliers (pages 18 & 19, as well as the specific attack listings).  What was lacking was confirmation that 2d6 was the base roll that all those multipliers applied to.  I thought that information would be included in the Damage And Soak section, but that just confirms that you roll 2d6 to resist damage without saying how that damage was generated.  In fact, I can't re-locate the part where the rules tell me to roll 2d6, apply dice bonuses, then apply my Damage Multiplier to determine the damage of a landed attack.  It's most frustrating, since most of the rule set is clean, simple, and clear while still having depth and breadth to work with.
> It's a minor individual point, but my reading (a skimming perusal, which tends to be the only way for me to read gaming books without falling unconscious) has found it to be endemic to the way the book was written.  One of the few things holding it back from a full five stars. [/off topic]




Here: 



			
				BASH! UE pages 1-2 said:
			
		

> *Dice Bonus/Penalty:* A number that is added/subtracted from the 2d6 roll before multiplying.  When written, the dice bonus comes before x.  So a roll with a multiplier of 3 and a dice penalty
> of 2 is written -2x3.
> 
> *DM, Damage Multiplier*: The number by which 2d6 are multiplied to determine how much damage an attack does, how much damage is soaked, or how much damage is healed.
> ...




However, I probably should re-iterate it in the "Damage" part to crystal clear that rolling 2d6 is involved.  I also need to post an example of play online to help people I think.  

And you also just helped me catch a mistake- on page 18, under Attacks where it says "_Hand-to-Hand attacks typically use Brawn as a base damage multiplier or as a Dice bonus with specifc weapon damage_." it should say instead: " _Hand-to-Hand attacks typically use Brawn as a base damage multiplier or as a *Result* bonus with specifc weapon damage_."  I had originally had weapons give a dice bonus to damage, then later changed it to a result bonus because I wanted weapons to be more useful to people with 0-2 Brawn (people who would have the most need for a weapon).


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Feb 6, 2010)

It is at this time I willlingly let the tomatoes and other fruits hit me because I realize I really don't know what I am talking about, and that's ok because, well, I guess that's just how it is  

I have been show the error of my ways in this thread... sort of.  I still love Hero system more, and I really don't like M&M, but if I play M&M in the future, I'll come at it with a different view than I have been, and maybe then it might click with me.  

I do like BASH though.    looks fun.

Thanks guys for showing this girl that, while she's not really wrong, because we are never wrong, but i was in error of sorts


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## Silvercat Moonpaw (Feb 6, 2010)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> I have been show the error of my ways in this thread... sort of.  I still love Hero system more, and I really don't like M&M, but if I play M&M in the future, I'll come at it with a different view than I have been, and maybe then it might click with me.



No fruit from this direction: so long as you know how the systems work I don't care which you like more.


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Feb 8, 2010)

SilvercatMoonpaw2 said:


> No fruit from this direction: so long as you know how the systems work I don't care which you like more.




Yes you are right on this... I often times don't think about the mechanics through, a lot of my choices are based on how something makes me feel, if that makes any sense... like, every time I've ever tried playing M&M, I've felt like something is off with it, something doesn't click for me.  When I play Hero, it just clicks.  

that's quite honestly the difference for me.  

I've also learned that when I am told new things about games that once didn't click, and given a new way of viewing them, they suddenly click the next time I try it.  That may happen again with  M&M.  

I'm also going to have to give Bash a try... from the sound of this thread and the one on rpg.net, it sounds like it could be a whole lotta fun.


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## Pseudonym (Feb 10, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> More than most RPGs, superhero games require a social contract.  Everyone has to agree on the genre, the types of characters, and to play a character that fits.
> 
> Once you get that agreement, most of the rest of it will fall into place.  And the GM will be able to say "Yes" most of the time.




This is very true.  We play a Golden Age game, with all that come with it.  We know this going in and we accept it for the good of the game.



ValhallaGH said:


> Regarding Hero Points: They are extremely powerful. I've actually limited Luck to 1, maximum, forcing my players to rely upon role-play awarded Hero Points to use them.




Eep!  I'm a Luck whore, I'll freely admit.  I tend to take half PL as a matter of course.



ValhallaGH said:


> As such, I can be generous while still having foes that can be meaningfully threatening (to better fit the tone of my campaign).
> Heroic Feat has been the _least_ game-breaking option.  The occasional Improved Critical just makes battles shorter.  The Recovery Check option has probably been the one that has most screwed up my fun (and is the main reason I don't allow multiple Luck feats).




You know, I don't think our group has ever used Action Points to get Imp. Crit. or goose a recovery check.  We tend to use them to re-roll a missed hit or save and to influence the story in non-combat ways.

For example in Piratecat's Incan Mummy caper, after the first combat at the bank I spent an Action Point and conveniently there was a native Peruvian in the crowd, another Action Point and "Hey, my character speaks Quechua" for the scene.


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## coyote6 (Feb 11, 2010)

Players in my games have used HP for recovery checks a number of times -- usually to recover from being Staggered in a big fight, or the occasional character that takes the gigantic beat down and needs to get rid of a few hits. (The PC in the solo game I run has been down to 0 or -1 effective Toughness a couple of times.)

What bugs me more is Regeneration of injuries or bruises with less than a full round of rest, or any Regeneration of Unconsciousness. If you can't keep a character down for more than one round, it's _really annoying_. That applies to PCs and NPCs equally; I once gave it to an NPC, and discovered it made the fight interminable.


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## graywulfe (Feb 22, 2010)

I would suggest checking out White Wolf's Aberrant, if you can find a copy.


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## Atlatl Jones (Feb 23, 2010)

A new, rules light superhero game by Steve Kenson has been announced: Icons.  It doesn't come out for a few months yet, but it sounds great.

Adamant Entertainment » Blog Archive » ICONS: A Sneak Peek

Adamant Entertainment » Blog Archive » Steve Kenson on ICONS

ICONS - RPGnet Forums


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## Thondor (Mar 7, 2010)

Rolflyn said:


> So it sounds like M&M isn't the game for our group. I concede that you clearly know the rules much better than I do. But I'm looking for a rules-light game, not one where players have to scour the book for point costs or potential feats to take, especially during play. Any suggestions on a game that could be played straight away, without all that studying?




Yes. I game I've been working on designing fits this request very well. Players brainstorm their characters with the GM and off they go within 15 minutes. (Less probably).
I've run this game at cons and with my home group, every time characters make very unique characters and get through a full adventure in 4 hours.

The 'Alpha rules' are all of eight pages with some sample characters, character sheet and title page. If your at all interested in this I'd be happy to share it, along with some of my less organized musings. (PM me.)

As it stands the system doesn't really do 'cosmic' at all.


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## Thondor (Mar 7, 2010)

I could mention some things about the mechanics,
Talents - rated 1-5 each one is a d6. Mechanically d6 roles work somewhat like risk.
Strainpoints- let you do cool stuff. Heal, add dice, 'push' your powers, 'avoid death in classic comic book style'. But also if you spend to much you pass out or even potentially die.

But more importantly here's a piece of something I wrote about the the design style.

*Simple Superheroes Design Philosophy*
The greatest strength of a pen-and-paper RPG is the collaboration. The combination of various ideas, personalities and backgrounds into something greater than one person could ever create. This is why this game has been designed not to restrict you or your players creativity but to encourage it. It is a toolkit to unlock an interactive story, to build a game universe (with its own rules and limitations) that could never exist without you. Other games are limited by what the designers were able to imagine and expect, a RPG need not be so. When you an your players brainstorm characters, as GM you should always explore the ideas they present. A concept for a power should always be possible, limitations and weakness should be discussed until it fits within the power frame of all the rest of your characters. 
Early ideas from the players on their characters, their background and the world should help you shape the universe. In this way each groups game can and should be different and each new universe created by your group should feel new. Encourage and adapt your universe to your players creativity. This philosophy lowers the burden of being the GM and gives the players a greater stake in your shared universe. 
A pen-and-paper RPG is not like a book, movie or play, it is something so much more then the sum of its parts. It is a infinitely flexible story with many authors whose creativity is only limited by what you and your table willingly impose on it. There is no correct way to play a RPG: for its greatest tenet is fun for all participants.    ​ Hence variations on themes and rules are encouraged. Their is a great strength in being derivative, for this allows a collective common ground to be easily developed and understood. Originiality is merely creative fusion of what has gone before.


 I guess that is a little long-winded.


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