# Where should "5e House Rules" and 5e "Character Builds & Optimization"  Posts Go?



## Mistwell (Sep 18, 2015)

There's been some discussion in the meta forum of where the "5e House Rules" and "5e Character Builds & Optimization" posts should go.

Right now, there is an all-edition House Rules forum, and an all-edition Character Builds & Optimization forum.  In addition, those posts (temporarily - as an experiment) are appearing in the General 5e Forum (though I think it's just those marked with 5e).

Some people like it this way, others don't, and I felt it might be time to stick a finger in the wind and get a general idea of what people might want.  Morrus may well completely ignore this poll, so don't hold your breath and it's not binding in any way.

I've argued that 5e topics, of any kind, shouldn't be stuck in an all-edition type forum.  In the very least, I think there should be a "5e Rules Forum" for discussion of the rules as written, house rules, character builds using those rules, and optimization using those rules.  Or at least something specific to 5e. I also personally think it's best to just have one big 5e forum where all 5e related posts go.

Others may want them in a sub forum, or in an all-editions forum, or somewhere else.

So, voice your opinion! And if you think my options are rotten, let me know that too, and explain what you'd like to happen.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 18, 2015)

Sorry but I hope Morrus ignores the poll.

Why? 

Let me begin by saying a vote for "keep them out" is also a vote for "make those discussions falter and starve at EN World". Without the visibility, they will happen elsewhere, and EN World has lost an opportunity to grow.

So the real solution would be to change things around so you can both have the cake and eat it too. But this is still discussed/explored over at Meta.

Conclusion: this poll is premature. I hope Morrus ignores the poll.


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 18, 2015)

I was fine with the previous formats of "all editions" CharOps and "all editions" House Rules forums.  I do like keeping those out of the 5E General Discussion forum because I don't find them generally interesting enough to want to see those threads every time I come to EN World.  If I come to the 5E EN World five times, I might only go to CharOp and House Rules once out of those five.  So having to see all those threads I don't need to see as often still showing up in the new format is slightly bothersome.  Not a huge deal by any stretch... but as we're just speaking personal preference, that's mine.

I also don't mind if both those boards are "all editions" because quite frankly they don't get new threads all that often enough that you usually can't scroll your way through to find where you left off the last time.  *Plus* each of those threads have the Prefix dropdown menu that allows you to only show the post PreFix you want, so if all you want to see is 5E House Rules... you just select '5E' from the dropdown then hit 'Show Threads'.

A couple extra small steps, yes... but as I said, since I only go to those threads like once every five times I pop in to EN World... I can take those couple extra steps if I really need to when I do.


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## mellored (Sep 18, 2015)

IMO: you want 2 forums per edition.
5e mechanics (rules, optimization)
5e general (+homebrew)


Rules and optimization go hand and hand, it's all about the nitty gritty and are very edition specific.  That clears space for the others who don't want to be caught up in the minutia of math and semantics.

And then some cross-edition forums.
Character backgrounds and lore.
DM's advice and adventures.


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## Morrus (Sep 18, 2015)

*Where should "5e House Rules" and 5e "Character Builds & Optimization"  Posts...*

We're currently moving towards fewer large forums than lots of tiny forums. A forum for each possible topic is, in my opinion, an awful arrangement. The number of messageboards I've seen with 100 subforums getting 1 post a day each!

Also, this sort of thing definitely does not get decided via votes, or by what people think might happen.  We're right in the middle of an experiment to see what actually happens, prompted by your last thread on the same subject, Mistwell.


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## Rune (Sep 18, 2015)

Considering you (that is, the viewer) can filter posts by tag (in other words, by edition and system), this seems like a non-issue to me. If anything, we don't even need a division between 5e General and General RPG forums.


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## Morrus (Sep 18, 2015)

I'd also note that since we're just beginning a period of migration, plus a period of mass-transfer of large amounts of content, what happens in the next couple of months is not useful data at all.  I don't plan to make any major decisions on forum arrangement during atypical periods.  After Oct 29th might be a better time to start looking at trends.


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## Treantmonklvl20 (Sep 18, 2015)

I like being part of a community that enjoys the same game I do to discuss, share opinions and ideas.  I personally don't think segregation builds a strong community.  (IMO)


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## Umbran (Sep 18, 2015)

Morrus said:


> I'd also note that since we're just beginning a period of migration, plus a period of mass-transfer of large amounts of content, what happens in the next couple of months is not useful data at all.  I don't plan to make any major decisions on forum arrangement during atypical periods.  After Oct 29th might be a better time to start looking at trends.




I might suggest, however, that you reverse the change - make the charops and homebrew stuff show only in its own forum *for now*, during the migration.

Why?  Because I suspect it will lead folks to develop better habits of tagging content appropriately, especially *as they move it*.  Even if they don't tag it, if they put it in the right forum, adding the tags in bulk within that forum is a whole lot easier than hunting down stuff placed in the general forum without a tag.  If they put it in the wrong forum, for now, it will be easier for us to see and add those tags, as well.

That means you will be able to start, and stop, the experiment again more easily.  In addition, we may find that with the new folks, the separated forums work just fine.  That's something we *won't* know if they are not really exposed to the separated setup.  In general, allowing the experimental setup to stand while there's lots of other stuff going on will tend to screw up your baseline.

Just my $0.02.


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## Sunseeker (Sep 19, 2015)

Rules creations should 100% be its own forum, it's just too overwhelming the amount of creative material that people come up with.  Rules _questions_ and answers should generally stick to the 5E general forums, as those are great places for discussion about the rules _as they are_ or as they should be, and not about completely original rules.

CharOP, IMO either needs its own section or should go with the homebrew stuff primarily because it is just so darn overwhelming that it's going to bury all the general discussion.


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## AaronOfBarbaria (Sep 19, 2015)

Putting certain types of posts off in their own "corner" does nothing but encourage the behavior some people have in which they treat things that other people like as lesser than things which they personally like.

And it also ends up leaving some people less likely to be exposed to some idea they hadn't had on their own, but greatly like or are inspired by.

So I say that a forum for all things 5th edition is a thin enough slice of the D&D talk going on, and thinner slices would have a more negative impact on the community overall.


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## steeldragons (Sep 19, 2015)

Sirrug said:


> Putting certain types of posts off in their own "corner" does nothing but encourage the behavior some people have in which they treat things that other people like as lesser than things which they personally like.
> 
> And it also ends up leaving some people less likely to be exposed to some idea they hadn't had on their own, but greatly like or are inspired by.
> 
> So I say that a forum for all things 5th edition is a thin enough slice of the D&D talk going on, and thinner slices would have a more negative impact on the community overall.




This is both true and not true. In short, yes. What other people like is less important than what I like/want to read. That is the very nature/core of the internet/gimme now culture. I should be capable of seeing what I want to without being inconvenienced or slowed down by things I do not. 

And there's nothing "wrong" with that. I already know I don't want to have conversations with min/maxer/charop people because numbers crunch and purposeful mis-interpretation mechanics debates so I can get my cake and eat it too are NOT the conversations I want to be a part of or see. I do not (and will not) belong to an Adventurer's League group. I do not play Pathfinder...

So their concerns and questions and conversations are not mine to have. At the same time, I am very interested in checking out, from time to time, what folks are brewing up in the Homebrews/Houserules forum...and, almost instinctively, return to the 5e the general discussion to take part in conversations or just check out/read threads that have titles that interest me. I go to the General D&D forum, at least once a week, because I am an old school junky, to see/check/read whatever pre-3e stuff gets brought up.

Looking at that forum, I can easily buzz past everything with a 3.5 or 4e tag on it, because they are not my area of interest. IF a title catches my eye on a topic I might find interesting or something I'm looking for inspiration for in my own game, then sure...I can still click on it. 

Then there's the occasional distraction of something new/interesting getting posted to the front page and something to read there. Check out Meta from time to time if something seems/is going wonky with the site and see if anyone else is having trouble with it.

I don't think that is so unusual for a user here to do. You go where you want to see what you want/are looking for in that moment. Go to and return to the forums that hold the the things they are interested in. _Intrinsically,_ that means what they are not interested in _IS_ less important...to them.

Furthermore, the proposal that an "All 5e" umbrella forum for all things with a 5e tag can readily and easily give those, presumably like yourself, who just want to see everything all together all of the time. So where's the problem with everyone getting what they want. You want to weed through a forum that is listing everything together all of the time? More power to ya. 

There is no reason whatsoever that the site can not have:
All 5e
General 5e Discussion
General D&D Discussion (with tags for any edition)
General Pathfinder Discussion
Homebrews & Houserules (with tags for any edition or game)
Character "Builds" & Optimization ["Charop"] (with tags for any edition or game)
Adventurers' League (which, I guess, is all/only 5e? If not, the tags work there too) [edit]Actually this should be "Organized Play", with tags for AL, Isn't "Expeditions" another one? Does PF have an organized play thing? So, make the sub-forum "Organized Play" or, if you prefer, "Adventurers' League & Other Organized Play" and offer tags for each group./edit] 

Seven forums, including the "All" umbrella list forum that takes you to the forum of the thread you click on. That's all you need, tops. If ["enough"] people aren't going to those other forums as much...well, write more interesting posts/topics, I guess.

Having different topics in a different sub-forums does not, somehow, lessen its potential as a source of inspiration. The forums ought *not* be organized in a way that is _universally inconvenient for all users_, because no two people are going to have all of the same interests and needs every time they log on, over some misguided notion that everyone should value everyone else's preferences equal to their own.


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## SailorNash (Sep 19, 2015)

I'm not fond of all-editions, personally. Too many unrelated but similar-looking things get all mixed up, and it's a chore to sort through. Either subforums under each edition, or edition subforums under the current main heading, would serve the same purpose either way.


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## AaronOfBarbaria (Sep 19, 2015)

steeldragons said:


> I should be capable of seeing what I want to without being inconvenienced or slowed down by things I do not.



I think the responsibility for that sits with you directing your gaze, rather than with Morrus stuffing whatever you don't want to see in the proverbial closet.

I'm leaving out the rest of your post for convenience since there is only one other part of it which I have any response, and it's more of a general tone I'm responding to, not any particular statement.

I'm not worried about posters like yourself that already know what they do and do not have any interest in. You know what you don't like and you can avoid it whether it is made convenient by sticking it off somewhere that you can pretend it doesn't even exist or it is there for you to see that it does exist but ignore anyway.

I'm worried about the posters that have yet to figure out for sure what they do and don't want to see and them missing out on ideas that would actually interest them because they didn't have the foreknowledge of that interest necessary to seek out the section of the forum the idea got stuck in for no reason besides that some poster said "I want to be able to hit a button here so that I don't see any posts of [generalized type]".

And I am worried because there are two types of separation at hand here, the separation of editions, and the separation of ideas within an edition. Separating editions makes sense because my knowledge of the rest and healing rules of 5th edition is only going to confuse people asking about healing and rest for some other edition.

Separating ideas within an edition, for the all good that it does organizationally, reduces the chances that someone on the forum experiences an opinion far enough outside their own to actually open their mind to something it wasn't already open to. It reduces actual discussion too, as it leads a home-brew preferring poster to stick to only the home-brew section because they have been made feel unwelcome in other parts of the forum by people talking of them the way you do of optimizers, and so forth.


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## steeldragons (Sep 19, 2015)

So, we can't separate forums, that anyone are completely free to visit or not, or have an "overview all things 5e forum" for those who want to see everything all at once...because people will be made to "feel bad" or will somehow, externally, feel "forced" to stay in/out of a forum, while/where all that is being talked about is the stuff they want to talk about? "Separation is bad." That's your "reasons"?

I'll just reiterate my wholehearted disagreement and we can go our separate ways.

Have fun and welcome to ENworld.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 20, 2015)

I've got to, again, agree with [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION] on this. It's not like a new poster won't see "Hey, there's a General 5E Forum and a House Rules 5E Forum, I guess I should check the latter for house rules issues." I find that sort of organization makes things _easier_ to find, not harder.

And TBH, had the "main" D&D forum looked as cluttered, when I first arrived here back in the Jurassic Era, as the 5E forum does now? That might have driven me away.


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## Agamon (Sep 20, 2015)

We seemed to get less unfortunate threads like this one when the boards were segregated.  

I have no problem with those that like to play that way, but I understand the frustration that leads to threads like these.


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## SkidAce (Sep 21, 2015)

Umbran said:


> I might suggest, however, that you reverse the change - make the charops and homebrew stuff show only in its own forum *for now*, during the migration.
> 
> Why?  Because I suspect it will lead folks to develop better habits of tagging content appropriately, especially *as they move it*.  Even if they don't tag it, if they put it in the right forum, adding the tags in bulk within that forum is a whole lot easier than hunting down stuff placed in the general forum without a tag.  If they put it in the wrong forum, for now, it will be easier for us to see and add those tags, as well.
> 
> ...




I agree with this. At least to get a feel for the baseline.

Personally;

If something has its own forum, then I don't want it in a combined forum.  If its combined with other stuff automagically, then it didnt need its own forum.


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## Morrus (Sep 21, 2015)

SkidAce said:


> If something has its own forum, then I don't want it in a combined forum.  If its combined with other stuff automagically, then it didnt need its own forum.




So a dedicated SkidAce forum, it is !


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## SkidAce (Sep 21, 2015)

*typos*

Good one...yah made me spit soda.

Here's what I am trying to say, via screencap...




Since the thread was in the "wrong place" it was moved.  But it is still included when you click the 5E thread.  So since it will be in 5E either way....what difference does it make where it is, and if there is no difference why was it moved.

I can use tags, and don't mind however it ends up, been here a long time, no worries.

But IMO, what we are doing seems...redundant?

Cheers!


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## Trickster Spirit (Sep 21, 2015)

Morrus said:


> I'd also note that since we're just beginning a period of migration, plus a period of mass-transfer of large amounts of content, what happens in the next couple of months is not useful data at all.  I don't plan to make any major decisions on forum arrangement during atypical periods.  After Oct 29th might be a better time to start looking at trends.




Eh, if that is the case then essentially I'm going to get limited use out of ENWorld until the end of next month. 

It's probably my lurker roots shining through, but my typical daily visit to ENWorld is a two-step process - A, I visit the news page to see if there are any interesting articles or announcements, followed by B, visiting the 5E general forum and browse through the new posts made to threads I've been following or to see if there are new threads I'm interested in following.

Since the merging experiment began I've found myself basically skipping B. I gave it a go for the first several days, but for me the "identify a promising new thread" process was typically low-effort - I'd skim ~20 thread titles and see if any sounded interesting. Since a significant portion of those are now topics I personally find uninteresting, I'm no longer able to do that and have essentially abandoned the 5E general board now. I'm not currently following any of the threads there and without a "feed" of new topics to replace them I'm only visiting the front news page these days. Interesting comments on a news article might occasionally bring me over but that's about it.

I'm not saying it's got to be my way or the highway and I'm sympathetic to the reality that segregating those threads in their own ghetto starves them of views and posts, but I don't see an easy compromise as without the ability to filter out content folks aren't interested in, you'rr essentially reducing the available amount of content folks ARE interested in. Sure, the threads are still there, and I could find them if I was willing to spend 2-3x the amount of time looking for them, but... I'm not. And I think that effect will have repercussions on the quality of the discussion down the road as well. If enough folks are put off by having to dig through content to find something they're interested in, those posters won't end up contributing to said threads and the quality of the conversation decreases over time.

A good analogy might be a party with lots of "areas" - you've got folks talking sports by the bar, folks talking politics over by the snack table, folks discussing Game of Thrones and playing pool by the pool table and folks talking about their favorite movies on the patio. If you remove all those landmarks and mix everyone up in one big room, I've got to navigate past a lot of other conversations about other stuff in order to find someone else who wants to talk about Game of Thrones. The same folks are there but I've got to put in more work to avoid conversations about politics (ugh) or sports (Why yes, I do think the Green Bay Patriots will win the penant this year). I wouldn't ask the host of the party to censor the other party goers in favor of my GoT convo, but if I'm having trouble finding a group talking about something interesting at the party I'm probably just going to go home early.

Just my two cents.


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## Gadget (Sep 21, 2015)

I must agree with others who dislike the new experiment.  The 5e General forum is so cluttered and overwhelmed with house rules and char-op/home brew classes that I found it hard to navigate/use or enjoy.  If anything, this time of migration is the worst time to start this experiment, as we need the newcomers to get used to the 'normal' situation before we attempt to change things around to see what is most efficient.  

I personally almost never visit the home brew /house rules forum because I'm not interested in the content there, by and large.  If it is a worry that these forums were not getting enough traffic (the proverbial 100 sub-forums with one or two posts a day mentioned above) the results of the experiment don't seem to bear that out.  The 5e general forum is currently overwhelmed with these posts.  There is not, to my knowledge, a way for me to filter out the posts from another sub-forum that I don't want to see, unlike those who got to the house rules char-op forums now.


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## mellored (Sep 21, 2015)

Can you have more then 1 tag?

i.e.
5e, and char-op?

If so, then maybe "eliminate" the forums, and just use tags?
i.e.
Someone can get all the 5e threads, all the homebrew threads, or all the 5e homebrew threads.


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## Trickster Spirit (Sep 21, 2015)

mellored said:


> Can you have more then 1 tag?
> 
> i.e.
> 5e, and char-op?
> ...




That would be the ideal solution to satisfy all parties - make everything filterable so that you can include or exclude content as you see fit - but unfortunately it sounds like it's not technically feasible for a vBulletin forum.


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## lowkey13 (Sep 21, 2015)

*Deleted by user*


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## Greg K (Sep 21, 2015)

Add me to those that don't like the new experiment.  I like house rules, but I prefer them to be in their own section to reduce clutter in the general forum. As for CharOP, I don't want to be bothered having to sort through them to find the things that interest me. Let those that want CharOp go to the CharOp area.


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## Mistwell (Sep 23, 2015)

So, in this rather limited poll, the least popular response is for the system that was in place prior to this experiment.  Only 13% like those all-edition sub forums for house rules and for character builds.


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## steeldragons (Sep 23, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> So, in this rather limited poll, the least popular response is for the system that was in place prior to this experiment.  Only 13% like those all-edition sub forums for house rules and for character builds.




Correct. Followed by the second least popular result of 17% for having them combined but separate from the 5e discussion. For a total 30% who want to keep them out/separate from the 5e "general discussion." 

Taken with those that want them kept separate, from each other and all other editions, you get (13.04 + 21.74) 34.78% who want to make sure Charop and Homebrew stay separate...but also want there to be MORE subforums because the 5e ones should have their own.

In general, the above limited sample as of 9/23/2015, after both Umbran and Morrus have basically said this isn't really going to be accurate or go anywhere at this time (likely and thankfully killing a whole lot of participation), shows that a whopping 65[ish]% want MORE subforums than we have now...not less/larger.

So...yeah. There's all of that. Should be interesting to see how things shake out down the road/after the "end times" of the WotC forum when a poll on this topic can be attempted in earnest.


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## Mistwell (Sep 24, 2015)

steeldragons said:


> Correct. Followed by the second least popular result of 17% for having them combined but separate from the 5e discussion. For a total 30% who want to keep them out/separate from the 5e "general discussion."




I voted to keep them in a rules forum, separate from the general forum, myself. I was pointing out that the system that existed before we tried a change appears to be the least popular, at least according to this limited poll.


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## steeldragons (Sep 24, 2015)

And I am just pointing out that what you voted for is only marginally more popular than what I voted for (to leave well enough alone, with Charop and Homebrew forums separate from each other and general discussion, but not necessary to make "5e only" versions of them). Again, according to this limited poll and the options therein, the majority of folks actually want there to be MORE broken up subforums than either we have now or the "larger/less" proposition. 

I am not advocating that. I don't think it's necessary to make 5e charop and 5e homebrew their own separate forums, when we already have Charop and Homebrew forums for everything else (and would still need to have those!). That's just a matter of searching through the tags for the ones you want or changing your forum view to only show the edition/game you want to look for. It doesn't require a whole separate "5e only" charop and a separate '5e only" homebrew forums, in my view. That is not going to be beneficial to the threads therein or guarantee a significant boost in views or comments.


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