# How much can you push/pull?



## DM-Rocco (May 15, 2006)

I posted this in the general threads, like 5 minutes ago, but can't find it, so I am reposting here.

How much weight can you drag or push?

The book says twice your max load, but it suggests that that is pushing it on the ground cause it says you can push more if the surface is slick.

The party is looking to create a hand wagon, with 4 wheels, something not really big and that can be maned by one person cause we have to go through a portal with them.

So, say you max load was 100 pounds, you could manage to push/pull a 200 pound rock.  If the surface was smooth and greased, you could pull/push more, maybe 300 pounds?

Now, what about if the cart/wagon was designed to hold the weight and to not be too big and bulky and of course had wheels to make pushing easy, how much could you push/pull then?  

We have to go through a portal, so the wagon can't be too big, but you can put a lot of weight in a small area.

What do you guys think?


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## Ilium (May 15, 2006)

Well if it has wheels you can push a LOT.  When I was younger I once pushed a mid-size car by myself about 1/8 mile.  It wasn't fun, but I did it.  I have never been especially athletic and in game terms probably had (at that time) about a 10 strength.

Now that's near-ideal conditions of course.  Flat road, nice modern tires, all that good stuff, but a car weighs tons.

So multiple big adventurer types could probably push/pull just about any weight they can physically fit through, depending on the gate size.  Certainly a full-size hay wagon.


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## DM-Rocco (May 15, 2006)

Ilium said:
			
		

> Well if it has wheels you can push a LOT.  When I was younger I once pushed a mid-size car by myself about 1/8 mile.  It wasn't fun, but I did it.  I have never been especially athletic and in game terms probably had (at that time) about a 10 strength.
> 
> Now that's near-ideal conditions of course.  Flat road, nice modern tires, all that good stuff, but a car weighs tons.
> 
> So multiple big adventurer types could probably push/pull just about any weight they can physically fit through, depending on the gate size.  Certainly a full-size hay wagon.




Yeah, I have had my fair share of cars break down and I did think about that.  We are in a very odd place where we can create just about anything we have seen in the world and have to get through a portal with our goodies, so we could even build a ramp that drops to the portal to get even more fun loot.

Once on the other side we can charter a boat and take our time moving stuff, so we don't have to go far initially.  

Is there a reference to how much normal wagons can hold?  I haven't seen anything?


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## Infiniti2000 (May 15, 2006)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> How much weight can you drag or push?
> 
> The book says twice your max load, but it suggests that that is pushing it on the ground cause it says you can push more if the surface is slick.



 The SRD (and I doubt it differs from the book) actually says "A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his or her maximum load."  This is not 'twice'.  Moreover: "Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them to one-half or less."

So, a character could conceivably push a cart loaded with 10 times the character's max load.


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## DM-Rocco (May 15, 2006)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> The SRD (and I doubt it differs from the book) actually says "A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his or her maximum load."  This is not 'twice'.  Moreover: "Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them to one-half or less."
> 
> So, a character could conceivably push a cart loaded with 10 times the character's max load.



Hmm, perhaps I miss read, and since I am at work I can't verify, but I do seem to recall something like that.  But even favorable conditions I don't think they include objects with wheels, I think, from what I read, that it means regular objects such as rocks or trees.  But I could be wrong.


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## Infiniti2000 (May 15, 2006)

It doesn't specify what "favorable conditions" could be.  I'd say that a cart with wheels is a favorable condition.  A modern car with modern day grease, ball bearings, etc. could be very favorable.  10x your max load in D&D is very reasonable I think.  At least it should be a better starting place for you vs. the 2x you originally thought.  Please let us know what you decide.


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## tzor (May 15, 2006)

I think there are too many variables you have to consider when thinking of a platform with wheels.  "Work" becomes an impotant consideration.  (Work is definied from a physics standpoint as moving things higher or lower.)  Most of the effort involved in dragging things concern overcomming friction, while in the case of the wagon, you merely have to overcome inertia, and spend a small amount of effort overcomming the natural friction of the wheel/axle system.

So as opposed to dragging an item where recduction of friction (via grease) is important, the question is the quality of the surface of the road on which the cart rests.  An uneaven pavement with bumps and hills turns the problem into a "work" problem moving the heavy mass up those bumps.  With a smooth surface and a well greased axle system the question becomes more of how much can the cart hold.  

Unfortunately the world isn't one long un-undulating smooth surface.  But if you are only going through a potal, it becomes easier.


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## MarkB (May 15, 2006)

Do you have access to magic, or to draft animals? There are a few spells that could help you, and even if a large animal won't fit through the portal, you could have it push the cart from behind.

Alternatively, just build a large chute and set the portal horizontally beneath it.


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## Arnwyn (May 15, 2006)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> The SRD (and I doubt it differs from the book) actually says "A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his or her maximum load."  This is not 'twice'.  Moreover: "Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them to one-half or less."
> 
> So, a character could conceivably push a cart loaded with 10 times the character's max load.



This is the guideline we use, as well.

We consider wheels to be "favorable conditions" - it's close enough for game use without going out and measuring the actual physics...


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## DM-Rocco (May 15, 2006)

MarkB said:
			
		

> Do you have access to magic, or to draft animals? There are a few spells that could help you, and even if a large animal won't fit through the portal, you could have it push the cart from behind.
> 
> Alternatively, just build a large chute and set the portal horizontally beneath it.




  This is not for the game I dm, but the one I play in.

It concerns a place where we are right now called Infinity Point.  I don't want to get to far into it cause it gets very confusing and the thread that explained it got hit in the crash.

Bottom line, in this place we can create anything we have seen, including gems and mihral items, but we have to leave through a portal that is part of the wall.  

The portal, in theroy, should lead to an island called Disciples Rock, where we will be safe, as we have been here before and have friends.

So, we only need to get the items through the portal and we are almost sure it is a one way portal so we can't go back.  While we can get anything we have seen, we can't get anything living, so no mounts.

We were going to load up on gems and armor and stuff and just walk through, but that seems silly since we can make a mithral cart and push it through the portal.

It is a low, or I should say, very low, magic G&G world, so magic is out.

Now that you know the situation, how much do you think you can push or pull and how much can't a small wagon or cart hold?

I'm not sure how much time we get to spend here, but the DM did say we had a fair amount of time, so I was contemplating building some rail tracks and just have a series of cars that roll on a downward slant through the portal, to maximize our goodies.  Once on the otherside we should be able to get some mounts and a crap load of guards to make off with the goodies.


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## Dross (May 16, 2006)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Once on the otherside we should be able to get some mounts and a crap load of guards to make off with the goodies.




And to be an evil DM, the crap load of guards do make off with the goodies, just after knocking you out.


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## DM-Rocco (May 16, 2006)

Dross said:
			
		

> And to be an evil DM, the crap load of guards do make off with the goodies, just after knocking you out.



Yes, we expect he will try to do something along those lines.  However, this is also a low money world.  We started with only 20 gold at regular prices.  My guy is 9th level and has about 2,000 gold in items.  

While we think he will screw us somehow, we also suspect that this is were he may make up some of the character wealth that a character of our level should have with a little extra for future levels.

Really, all we are getting is a bunch of light weight masterwork items and enough gold to buy a small mansion.  But I don't really want to cover that again.  The DM might be a bit on the crazy side, but that is fine with us, and since we are fighting creatures now that can only be hit by magic and we have none, most of these items really won't help that much anyway.  

I don't want to defend the DM so please don't say how insane he is, just comment on how we can carry more loot through the portal.   

NOTE: The DM is most likely looking at this, so a side note, we don't think you are nuts and we are not complaining about not having any money and always getting arrested and striped.  I blame the party


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## DM-Rocco (May 23, 2006)

Okay, for the record, for those who have been following this thread and the more detailed one lost in the crash, I made a Mithral Wagon that can be converted to a sleigh to go over snow.  It also has a mithral cover top and is buoyant and has a mast so you can sail with it, without the horses of course.  I'm working on the stats for it right now and will most likely show off my bling here, just cause a few have e-mailed me about it.

Also, keeping up with the rat 'bastard' the DM is,  We, or I mean I, almost died last session from a bear.  No, not a normal bear, it was about 20-30 foot high and had a 4 foot wide head.  Since I was alone, I ran like a school girl, if I didn't have haste, I would have been dead, as it was, I barely survived.    

If ya know anything about G&G and HP for large of bigger creatures, you would have ran too   

Not quite a million gaurds to steal our free massive amounts of look, but just as good.  

Damn the DM


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## IcyCool (May 23, 2006)

According to page 162 in the PHB, a strength 10 character has the following load limits:

Light: 0-33lbs.
Medium: 34-66lbs.
Heavy/Maximum Load: 67-100lbs.
Lift: 100-200lbs. (You can lift up to twice your maximum load and stagger around with it (5ft. per round).
Drag/Push: 500lbs.  (5 times your max load, possibly up to 1,000lbs.)

A Cart costs 15gp and weighs 200lbs.  As you don't seem to have access to the first level spell, Mount, you'll have to drag it as a person.  I would certainly call a cart with wheels a "favourable condition", so you could load the cart down with as much as it can hold (as long as the weight of the cart and the weight of the gear don't total more than you can drag).

Now, it gets a little fuzzy rules-wise, but here are my thoughts.  A cart is made of wood, with some metal (or it would weight quite a bit more).  In order to reduce the weight of the cart, you'd want to make the wooden parts out of Darkwood, and the metal parts out of Mithril.  That cuts your weight in half, to a 100lb. cart.  The value of the cart would increase by however much Darkwood increases an item's price.  Then, you load the cart with what you can.  Personally, I wouldn't allow the load to weigh more than a ton, as I doubt even the Darkwood and Mithril could take the strain.  The other consideration is that this is a small, two-wheeled cart.  I'd figure it won't have a great deal of holding space, so make sure that whatever you transport is dense, to conserve on space.  I'd guess that the small, two-wheeled cart wouldn't be more than 4 feet wide by 5 feet long.

You could try the process with a wagon, which while it would certainly hold more cargo, it is much heavier (it is designed to be pulled by a team of at least two horses).


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