# [4e Setting] No Age for Heroes



## Paka (Jun 5, 2008)

My roommate, Bret, is Dungeon Mastering a game of D&D and hit us with this one sheet that has inspired all manner of awesome chargen:



> Heh. Heroes. In this Age, heroes are strangled in their cribs by their mothers before the orcs tear down the door and eat them feet first so that they can listen to them scream while they chew.
> 
> No, this is no Age for heroes.
> 
> ...




Once the characters were made and we'd fleshed out the world between us a bit, he hit us with this bit of awesome:



> Tales are whispered by refugees from the West who stake out tent towns outside our walls. Mohadj, mute mask tribesmen, dragonborn - all are being displaced as the mist moves Eastward bringing horror with it. Bardryn the Grim has cut down the trees and burned back the jungle and built walls and towers on the ashes to keep the mist at bay as well as the evil it brings with it.
> 
> Some of the mute mask tribes are breaking their vows and speaking. The other tribesman turn on them, removing their masks and leaving them to die or exiling them. The Mohadj who harbor the tribes stand by and do nothing. Apart from the tribes themselves, they alone know why the tribes stopped speaking and traded their faces for masks in the first place, and some say he or she who broke the vow in the first place is responsible for bringing all this evil upon us. The vow of an entire people is not made lightly, and to break it surely must bring great consequences.
> 
> ...




And my man, Storn  drew up the following as a pic of the Master of Tents:







We play next Tuesday.

I can't wait.


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## RoguePlayingGames (Jun 5, 2008)

Inspiring.

Thanks.


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## Turanil (Jun 5, 2008)

Excellent campaign premise, very evocative.


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## GreatLemur (Jun 5, 2008)

That is some high-grade awesome, there.  I hope to hear you guys talk about this campaign on the podcast.  I really want more first-hand gameplay accounts from people like you lot in order to form an opinion on 4e.  I am seriously on a razor's edge of indecision about it.


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## Jack99 (Jun 5, 2008)

This is made of awesome. Tell your DM that.


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## Paka (Jun 5, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> This is made of awesome. Tell your DM that.




I have and he reads this, so now you have too.



			
				GreatLemur said:
			
		

> That is some high-grade awesome, there.  I hope to hear you guys talk about this campaign on the podcast.  I really want more first-hand gameplay accounts from people like you lot in order to form an opinion on 4e.  I am seriously on a razor's edge of indecision about it.




Storn and I are both excited to play and we'll definitely be talking about it on Sons of Kryos, without a doubt.  We're excited to take 4e out for a test drive.


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## Piratecat (Jun 5, 2008)

Wow. That's simply superb. I noticed Storn's LJ post, and I've got to say, this seems like the kind of campaign I'd love.

Please let us know how the first adventure goes.


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## Masquerade (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for sharing this! Lots of good ideas--and moods--here.

If I hadn't sent out my own setting primer a couple days ago, I would be tempted to plagiarize some of this.


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## Paka (Jun 5, 2008)

*Let me tell you about my character...*

Paladins of the Raven Queen exist in order to facilitate the end of the world in a graceful manner.

There is one consort to the queen per generation and my character is driven to be the one. Once he has been sworn in as a demi-god lover to the Goddess of the Apocolypse, he will petition her for one more glorious golden age, one more chance for humanity, for the children of the gods.

His name is Elias Corvus and he has black feathers on his armor.

*Description*: Elias wears heavy plate mail with chipped black enamel.  He is built sinewy and rangy with dark eyes and prematurely graying black hair kept short to best fit under his winged helm.  He wears a feather for every being he has killed, not as a trophy but as a holy remembrance for the most holy act of taking a life.

Over his armor is a black tabard with a raven flying towards his right arm with a black rose in its beak.  Under the raven, a sun is either setting or rising, depending on your philosophy.

Elias owes the Dragonblooded for giving him the elusive Ravenfang that was lost to his Holy Order for centuries.  Only three others are known to be held by the Order.  Many of the others are said to be destroyed or held by the followers of Orcus.

Storn's character wishes Elias to use his connections with death to discover who killed his people.

*Quest*: To Consecrate his once holy Axe, the first executioner's axes made by the Raven Queen herself when humans first began to kill based on written law.  There were thirteen made.  Six were executioner's axes to be used by justicars.  Six were warrior's axes, to strike fear into the justicars and the 13th is a mystery.

They are the Ravenfangs, each has its own name.  Elias is unsure of his axe's name.


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## mjukglass (Jun 5, 2008)

Awesome, I already have the rpg.net thread subscribed but I guess one more doesn't hurt. That drawing is very much Tribe8, me like! 
Love to hear how the games goes. Be sure to milk this on your podcast! Recordings are demanded from such a enticing premise. Good luck and good gaming to you guys.


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## GreatLemur (Jun 5, 2008)

Aw, that is badass.  I very much like that the axe needs to be re-consecrated, and that he doesn't know its name.  The term "Ravenfang" strikes me as a little self-contradictory, though.  Wouldn't "Raventalon" or something make a bit more sense?

Also: The black feathers on the armor and the graying hair are extremely nice touches.  Hope Storn ends up drawing the party.

So I'm noticing you haven't posted any mention of non-human PC races that weren't new with 4e.  Is this a dwarf/elf/halfling-free campaign setting?  I've thought about doing a similar thing with Eberron, actually, since it'd be easy to replace all the demihumans with nearly-identical human cultures, and thus let the warforged and shifters and such broadcast the distinct flavor of the setting all the more loudly.


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## Paka (Jun 5, 2008)

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Aw, that is badass.  I very much like that the axe needs to be re-consecrated, and that he doesn't know its name.  The term "Ravenfang" strikes me as a little self-contradictory, though.  Wouldn't "Raventalon" or something make a bit more sense?




Thanks, bad-ass is definitely what I'm going for with this character.

Naming axes ain't about making sense.  I just like the way -fang rolls off the tongue more than -talon.



			
				GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Also: The black feathers on the armor and the graying hair are extremely nice touches.  Hope Storn ends up drawing the party.




I joked when we made up characters that I only ever describe anything at our games so that Storn can draw them better.

I really was joking.

Kinda...



			
				GreatLemur said:
			
		

> So I'm noticing you haven't posted any mention of non-human PC races that weren't new with 4e.  Is this a dwarf/elf/halfling-free campaign setting?  I've thought about doing a similar thing with Eberron, actually, since it'd be easy to replace all the demihumans with nearly-identical human cultures, and thus let the warforged and shifters and such broadcast the distinct flavor of the setting all the more loudly.




All of our D&D toys are present and accounted for in this world; we want to take them out and play with them all before we're done.  The first bit of the write-up happened before chargen, so you will notice it was just kind of a light brush overview.  The second write-up happened after we knew who our characters were and what the situation that brought us together was.  Bret concentrated his writing on what was interesting to us and our characters.


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## Doug McCrae (Jun 5, 2008)

Doug, you're out of the thread.  Please keep your posts in other threads more civil than this one.

- Xath


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## Paka (Jun 5, 2008)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> I couldn't read past the first paragraph. Looked like teenage darkwank to me.




Then it is a good thing you aren't playing in the game, otherwise we might get our teenage darkspooge all over you.


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## Storn (Jun 5, 2008)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> I couldn't read past the first paragraph. Looked like teenage darkwank to me.




I think this is a reasonable reaction.... because you were not at the table.  The GM used all of that color as a springboard, and then how he does expect us to BE heroes in this dark, grim, grimy age.  That darkwank is a catalyst.  Not EMO for the sake of EMO.

I know the GM. I trust him to help us all weave a great story.  To me, it felt quite Sword and Sorcery along the lines of Tim Lebbon's Dusk and Dawn duology.  Which I quite like.


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## Pseudointellectual (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey! I'm the DM. Thanks for all the praise, guys. I've also added a new paragraph based on Doug McCrae's valuable feedback.



> But all was well in Unicornland! The Cotton Candy Queen was having a tea party, and all the squirrels and rainbow kids were invited! There was even a rumor that afterward, there might be a lollipop parade! Yay!


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## RSKennan (Jun 5, 2008)

That's freaking hilarious! It reminds me of the time when a short-term player complained that there was too much danger in the various D&D settings, and I ran half of a session like that to show him why.

Edit: I forgot to add that I think this campaign sounds awesome. I'm still brainstorming, but I hope my next setting will be half as cool.


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## Paka (Jun 5, 2008)

RSKennan said:
			
		

> That's freaking hilarious! It reminds me of the time when a short-term player complained that there was too much danger in the various D&D settings, and I ran half of a session like that to show him why.
> 
> Edit: I forgot to add that I think this campaign sounds awesome. I'm still brainstorming, but I hope my next setting will be half as cool.




People keep commenting on the darkness of it around the intarwubs and I think it is a pretty level take on the Points of Light framework but Bret added just a nudge, and a nudge I dig, that the Points of Light are going out one by one.  I like the way the setting lit a fire under our adventuring butts.


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## Enforcer (Jun 5, 2008)

Pseudointellectual said:
			
		

> Hey! I'm the DM. Thanks for all the praise, guys. I've also added a new paragraph based on Doug McCrae's valuable feedback.





Kudos, sir, on both your actual campaign and your sense of humor.


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## Nellisir (Jun 5, 2008)

I can kinda see where the "darkangst" vibe comes from...but this is the far side of that.  If I'm reading it correctly, td is all about "oh my god, it's all dark and horrible and I wanna be x-23 and the punisher and like kill people and evil wins".  But -and I don't know about anyone else- but this makes me think "oh my god its all dark and horrible and all the "heros" are like x-23 and the punisher and they like kill people...so I'm gonna be Captain America and kick their asses and show them what REAL heros are!"  And bring back hope and justice and peace and all that crap.

I mean, reading that the "heros" of the setting are babykillers and matricides doesn't make me want to be a babykiller.  It makes me want to prove there's something better to look up to.

The darker the night, the brighter the light.

It's an awesome setup.  It's making me rethink the "metasetting" in my campaign.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 5, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> People keep commenting on the darkness of it around the intarwubs and I think it is a pretty level take on the Points of Light framework but Bret added just a nudge, and a nudge I dig, that the Points of Light are going out one by one.  I like the way the setting lit a fire under our adventuring butts.



I like this idea, too. 

I am still not sure if and when I will be homebrewing for 4E. At the moment, I will probably the player to get DDI access (well, assuming I finally get myself a credit card) and I already have Keep on the Shadowfell to run for my group. 
But I'd prefer to give the adventure paths and other books to the other players and they DM it, so I can get some 4E play action. They just have to suck up my bad storytelling and homebrewed world then.

One of the ideas I am playing with is the idea of a certain "urgency" - like the players being in one town, and seeing refuges from a nearby town that was pillaged by Goblins or Orcs.

Another idea is the idea of an active resistance amongst the PoL, trying to reunite the points and drive the darkness back. 

I will probably use both approaches. I want to leave a few Wintersafe havens for the PCs to retreat to, and the PCs seeing a way out of the mess.


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## reachx (Jun 5, 2008)

*kudos to thr dm and praise to the dark muse*

as a part time wanna be writer myself, i must say i love it and would love a chance to help you flesh it out. lately, my muse has been whispering sweet nothings about spell/ritual/prayer adaptations  . I play alot of wiz/ftr and wiz/rog so you know i'm going to have to have more than what the books give me off the top. ;-)


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## Storn (Jun 5, 2008)

Quest: To find who or what wiped out his Family, his Caravan of Wanderers and his Master of Tents.  The Master of Tents, in its death throes sent a a dream sending to Methamere Dray.  (yeah, I changed the name, Methanwe I remembered was the name of a PC of a player who I cannot stand, brought back bad memories).  Leaving his University of the Arcane prior to graduation, Methemere embarks on a path of icy vengeance & blood .  (He doesn't use fire magiks)

Description: Long dark black hair, wild ice blue eyes, totally average height for a Eladrin.  He dresses in dark blues and purples.  Has a long tabard, that has seen better days.  His longsword is of a common, but still elegant, bluesteel.  His Orb is set into a baldric and has turned black, a sure sign of its owner's stormy mood. 

Connections:

Methemere wishes Corvus to speak with the Raven Queen and see if anything can be gleaned from their deaths to the agent of said deaths.

Pherox was rescued by Methemere's Wandering caravan years past.  The Master of Tents accepted Pherox, perhaps on the basis of Pherox's connection to the Holy Daughters. 

Short Term goal:

To get the refugees set up and as safe as they can be in this climate of horrendous upheaval and war.  There has been enough death.


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## Paka (Jun 6, 2008)

reachx said:
			
		

> as a part time wanna be writer myself, i must say i love it and would love a chance to help you flesh it out. lately, my muse has been whispering sweet nothings about spell/ritual/prayer adaptations  . I play alot of wiz/ftr and wiz/rog so you know i'm going to have to have more than what the books give me off the top. ;-)




I think the way we'll flesh it out is through playing it.

That is how we roll.

Why the hard to read font color?


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## Byronic (Jun 6, 2008)

Inspiring, if this was the premise of a book I'd think of buying it.


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## Piratecat (Jun 6, 2008)

Pseudointellectual said:
			
		

> Hey! I'm the DM. Thanks for all the praise, guys. I've also added a new paragraph based on Doug McCrae's valuable feedback.



Umm... can I play in that other game? With the unicorns?

I'm actually very interested in how you can make the setting seem not entirely oppressive.


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## Paka (Jun 6, 2008)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Umm... can I play in that other game? With the unicorns?
> 
> I'm actually very interested in how you can make the setting seem not entirely oppressive.




Bret and I were talking about this earlier tonight a bit.  We discussed how you can kind of dial up the dark of the 4e D&D settings kind of using the Points of Light as the barometer.  How bright are your Points of Light?  Are there outside forces threatening them or are they stable?

Bret added in conflict to this setting by having gonzo and vague undefined threats attacking all of the Points of Light and all of our characters were kind of born from there.

Storn's Wizard's family was destroyed while he was off at the crumbling university that taught him magics, Bob's Warlord is the last surviving member of a holy and royal line, Jeff's Dragonborn Fighter is a refugee from a destroyed citadel who left with a clutch of eggs and Kat will be playing a Warlock who was driven a bit mad due to a dark prophecy she caught wind of.  We're all strongly effected by the snuffing of the PoL's but at the same time, I don't think it is going to really change how the lot of us view fantasy, which is probably a bit darker than most.

On the continuum with George R.R. Martin on one side and Tolkien smack-dab in the middle with Disney on the far other side, we're somewhere between Martin and Tolkien, without a doubt.

We're looking at our character sheets and we're eager to kick down some doors, kill some stuff and write down said stuff on our character sheets.

Its been a while since most of us have 'crawled.


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## Andor (Jun 6, 2008)

Pseudointellectual said:
			
		

> But all was well in Unicornland! The Cotton Candy Queen was having a tea party, and all the squirrels and rainbow kids were invited! There was even a rumor that afterward, there might be a lollipop parade! Yay!




I always found the old "Beyond the crystal caverns" adventure an interesting example of module design. If your party went in with an interest in talking first and fighting second a 3rd level party could have done it with not too much trouble. If they went in kicking doors and firing first you were probably looking at a TPK up to 5th or 6th level. 

Or in other words, talking to the Unicorns is a good idea even if it does smack of Disney.


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## mjukglass (Jun 6, 2008)

A question. Do you have, as a player, the same freedom with all fluff in the game? I mean, all class descriptions and power fluff is pretty vague and flavorless.

I know that I will encourage my players to come up with new names and descriptions of all their powers, and classes if they want. We use the mechanics but will bend and break the fluff to suit our campaign and mode at the gametable. 

I got a strong wuxia feeling reading the PhB mechanics, and thought alot of the fluff was semi weak but easily could be turned up to eleven with some vivid and more gory narrative framing.


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## vagabundo (Jun 6, 2008)

Nice setting, very nice.

It is dark, but based on the POL concepts.

I suppose POL could go descending, ascending or stable.

Your's appears to be descending, if the PCs do not stop it. A strong focus on stopping/reversing the slide into chaos would make for a great campaign, bringing in a new age of heroes.

I've chosen a stable campaign for my own setting. PCs are the fulcrum, their actions will decide the future of things.


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## Piratecat (Jun 6, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> How bright are your Points of Light?  Are there outside forces threatening them or are they stable? ...We're looking at our character sheets and we're eager to kick down some doors, kill some stuff and write down said stuff on our character sheets.



That's a nice way of looking at it. The campaign intro makes the slide seem so inevitable, so inexorable, that you're pretty much doomed to fail. Proving that this isn't necessarily the case is what heroic stories are made of. 

I think one of the nicest aspects is that each cornerstone of strength and stability seems to be besieged by its own threats. You won't get bored always fighting orcs.


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## Pseudointellectual (Jun 6, 2008)

I realized it was a dark, oppressive setting and that was important. I wanted a world full of trouble for the PCs to get their noses into, full of monsters to fight, people to save, threats to ward off. And Nellisir upthread totally nailed it. This world has no heroes in it, and it so desperately, desperately needs them, making the PCs even more potent and vital. When I sat down with the guys for character creation, I said, "Okay, you guys have to be heroic. No evil characters."

Basically, the idea is that it's initially dark but it's not a PC beatdown stick. It's a place where PCs can really make a difference, and their difference will definitely be noticed as the other figures of note in the world are the likes of Arzhan and Cassi.

mjukglass, I gave players as much freedom with fluff as I possibly could. The wandering Eladrin caravans were all Storn's idea. Consorts of the Raven Queen was all Judd's idea. That second page of fluff that Judd posted that I wrote was based entirely on ideas the players brought to the session at chargen and adding some more hooks into it. I think you're right, the 4th ed. classes and powers were flavorless in the same way a blank sheet of pepper and some pencils are flavorless. I just went to town drawing with them. 

Andor, hehe. I'm actually hoping that using the new skill challenge system we can see some situations resolved in ways that don't involve pushing minis around a map. Though hot damn am I excited to push some minis around maps!


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Jun 7, 2008)

FWA - Full of Win and Awsome.  Consider at least one idea yoinked - the mute masked tribe.


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## Nellisir (Jun 7, 2008)

Pseudointellectual said:
			
		

> I realized it was a dark, oppressive setting and that was important. I wanted a world full of trouble for the PCs to get their noses into, full of monsters to fight, people to save, threats to ward off. And Nellisir upthread totally nailed it. This world has no heroes in it, and it so desperately, desperately needs them, making the PCs even more potent and vital. When I sat down with the guys for character creation, I said, "Okay, you guys have to be heroic. No evil characters."
> 
> Basically, the idea is that it's initially dark but it's not a PC beatdown stick. It's a place where PCs can really make a difference, and their difference will definitely be noticed as the other figures of note in the world are the likes of Arzhan and Cassi.




I've been hitting YouTube, and I take back what I said earlier.  I don't want to be Captain America.

I want to be the LONE RANGER!!!



On topic, I could totally see a masked do-gooder become an iconic hero in this setting, a la the Lone Ranger or Zorro.


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## Pseudointellectual (Jun 8, 2008)

Hehe, well one of the PCs is a member of the masked mute tribes. So we have one masked do-gooder.


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## Defender_X (Jun 8, 2008)

Interesting ideas there.  The best way I can describe this is as grim hope.


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## Paka (Jun 10, 2008)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> That's a nice way of looking at it. The campaign intro makes the slide seem so inevitable, so inexorable, that you're pretty much doomed to fail. Proving that this isn't necessarily the case is what heroic stories are made of.




Hell yeah, this is what heroic stories are made of.  All of that bad stuff in the intro one-sheet?  My paladin is going to kick it in the face.



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> I think one of the nicest aspects is that each cornerstone of strength and stability seems to be besieged by its own threats. You won't get bored always fighting orcs.




Yeah, the threats are both vague and varied, leaving lots of space for Bret to tailor this to push our buttons.

Greg, over at http://www.naturaltwenty.com/ did up this boss hand-out pdf.

www.naturaltwenty.com/downloads/age_of_heroes.pdf







Thanks, Greg!


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## Nellisir (Jun 10, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> All of that bad stuff?  My paladin is going to kick it in the face.




I'm sigging this.  It's made of awesome.

BTW, are you guys playing in person or via internet?  I just noticed your location in Ithaca.  I'm in New Hampshire right now, but we've got a purchase & sales agreement on my house and I'm starting grad school at Cornell this fall.


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## Storn (Jun 11, 2008)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> I'm sigging this.  It's made of awesome.
> 
> BTW, are you guys playing in person or via internet?  I just noticed your location in Ithaca.  I'm in New Hampshire right now, but we've got a purchase & sales agreement on my house and I'm starting grad school at Cornell this fall.




We be in Ithaca area.... Etna is a bit outside of Ithaca on the east side of the lake, I preside in Trumansburg, on the west side of the lake.  But it is like, oh, 40 mins from Etna.  

I grew up here, and just moved back 2 years ago.  I love being back.  Lots o' gamers too.


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## Nellisir (Jun 11, 2008)

Storn said:
			
		

> We be in Ithaca area.... Etna is a bit outside of Ithaca on the east side of the lake, I preside in Trumansburg, on the west side of the lake.  But it is like, oh, 40 mins from Etna.
> 
> I grew up here, and just moved back 2 years ago.  I love being back.  Lots o' gamers too.



OK, I see Etna.  We're looking in the Etna/Dryden/Lansing/Groton area; we like the country, don't mind a bit of a commute, and with two adults, a toddler, two dogs, two cats, and a workshop full of tools (12 years in construction), renting isn't a good option.  But my wife needs to find a job before the bank will consider financing, so...we'll see.  Might have to rent for a little while anyways.

I drove through Trumansburg when I was there in April; looked like a really nice town.  Not very convenient to our choice of daycare, though, and my wife is nervous about the hills hill in winter.

Anyways, glad to hear about the gamers.  I'm hoping and intending to have time to game, but...who knows.  I'll buy you guys lunch someday, or pizza and mountain dew, or a drink, or something.  

And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 11, 2008)

Pseudointellectual said:
			
		

> Hey! I'm the DM. Thanks for all the praise, guys. I've also added a new paragraph based on Doug McCrae's valuable feedback.





Man, the guy registers, and three posts in he has WON AT THE INTERNET

Congrats PI...and welcome


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## Rechan (Jun 11, 2008)

I finally took a look into this thread and HOLY CRAP AWESOME.

This really reminds me of Exalted. (No wait, hear me out); the core setting is basically that the golden age was over, that the Solars (the PCs 'race', so to speak) are hunted down, and the world is just dangerous, xenophobic and nasty. 

It became our goal, as PCs, to fix it all. We started toppling dictators and creating our own nation, and started from there.

Also, consider the masked mute tribesmen and a mist-choked, evil-infested jungle yoinked like, a lot.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Jun 11, 2008)

Yep great work that could fit in any edition, before expanding on the jungle parts you should really watch Apacolypto.  Many good evil ideas in there.


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## Storn (Jun 12, 2008)

More art from our Tues (or Weds) 4th ed D&D game.  

First up is Judd's PC, Elias Corvus... a Paladin of the RavenQueen.  Judd was pretty evocative with his description.  I had a pretty good sense of where to go with his pic.







Next is A.'s PC, Exile.  A once masked, mute tribal warrior (_but is actually a rogue)_, he has found language and struck out into the wide, dangerous world.  He is ritually scarred.  The climate we are in, is near Exile's jungle... so I supposed a serengeti, african analog, as we are outside of the jungle, in rolling hills, grasslands etc.  This climate influenced both Exile and my PC's pics... with Corvus sweating in all that heavy, black plate.  






Last one is my PC... Methamere Dray.  I wanted him to influenced by the climate, hence the bare legs... He looks like a rogue, but he is really a wizard.  Being an Eladrin, longsword is a proficiency weapon.  Doesn't look much like a mage and I'm cool with that.  Originally, last night, I drew him with long black hair... but I decided this morning to erase that and show him with shorn, short black hair.  I think this is a sign of morning amond the Eladrin, after all, his entire family and the extended caravan that Meth grew up with has been wiped out.  I like the short hair.  

I dunno why, but the face and Dray's calves look a bit like John Byrne's work.  Just one of those odd influences that can sneak into one's work, especially when doodling away.








These works are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.5 License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5


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## Rechan (Jun 12, 2008)

Those are of particular awesomeness.


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## Pseudointellectual (Jun 12, 2008)

Some more notes filling in some blanks from last night's game! 







> No one knows what became of the Blue Lich Czars. One day, the Beetletongue Matrons did not come to collect tribute from the tribes and villages that fell under their shadow. At first, the people were nervous. Did the Czars no longer require tribute? Would their skeletons be ripped from their still-screaming bodies to build another army for war? Months and months passed. Fear and nervousness turned into relief. Brave souls went to investigate. Those that returned spoke of empty cities, but potent magics that could tear the souls out of those who tried to enter.
> 
> Where did the Blue Lich Czars go? It has been centuries and centuries now since they vanished completely. Some say it was the gods who turned them to dust in an act of benevolence. I know better. The gods would do no such thing, for what use would we have for them if there were no evils to plague us and no suffering to pray for relief from. No, the gods did not kill the Blue Lich Czars. The Blue Lich Czars left.
> 
> ...


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## Rechan (Jun 12, 2008)

Pseudointellectual, I'm very curious about the various adventures your PCs are going/have gone on. What direction are they headed, what ills are they challenging?


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## Pseudointellectual (Jun 12, 2008)

Rechan - we just had the first session and basically they found a home for some refugees in the ruins of an old Blue Lich Czar city. They're now working on removing the evils that still inhabit it, and have negotiated for peace with the kobold tribe that was already living there.


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## Paka (Jun 12, 2008)

From my lj post about last night's game 

We played 4e last night and it was fun. I didn't have a full grip on my kewl powerz just yet but I think I've got it now.

We fought our own shadows that gained evil intent from a mostly buried Statue of Liberty size lich idol with glowing blue eyes after I talked mad  and prayed to the Raven Queen while staring the big guy down. That battle was rough for the rest of the group and Jeff had some serious wiff factor going on.

Kobolds settled the area, a ruined city, formerly ruled by the Blue Lich Czars in days of old. This city is where our refugees were going to settle and I just felt odd going into the tunnels and slaughtering the bastards. So, it was a prolonged skill challenge before they agreed to keep to the tunnels and we'd keep to the above-ground.

I think Bret was thinking it would be us fighting lots of kobolds and I certainly wanted some fights but slaughtering the folks who were here before us felt wrong, even to my unaligned paladin.

After that we hired a kobold shepherd (giant fire belching beetles) to take us deep underground, to places the kobolds fear. We took on skeleton soldiers and their captain and really slammed the bastards hard. At one point I really got myself good and surrounded in order to rack up the bonuses (my Paladin get's +1 for every enemy surrounding him) but the party prevailed.

There was other stuff: giant rocks falling from the sky that was kept away by the Blue Lich Czar's still active magics, a temple where the Kobolds had settled that had statues of Vecna, Orcus and the Raven Queen all together (gasp!) and Jeff's Dragonborn PC playing uncle to the hatchlings.

*Thoughts*:

Combat is really fun and dynamic. There is way more movement than I remember in 3.0 combat and Bob's Warlord is nifty as hell; he really makes a support position fun.

The Skill Challenges are cool. I'm curious to read through the books more carefully in the next week and just get a better grip on the text. We played out our Skill Challenges very much like a funky Duel of Wits and Bret was cool about keeping the narration fresh so our ideas on how to succeed didn't stagnate.

From what I did read of the Skill Challenges, I'm not thrilled with the advice or the examples but more on that with a more careful reading, complete with its own post dedicated to just this topic. In short, saying that DM's should be flexible and allow players to be imaginative about which skills they use is cool, saying some skills are auto-failures is not so cool.

I'm a hero. If I want to try to intimidate the Duke, let me roll the dice and have my damned shot.

Bret made up the shadow monsters and the skeleton combat encounters pretty much on the fly.

I think we threw a real wrench in his works by not attacking the kobolds. We're just not the type of group to grope around looking for the Dungeon Master's adventure and Bret rolled with it well and the game helped him create fast and fun combats.

Playing with D&D mythos toys is just damned fun. I like Bret's sense of play with the setting and the sense that these awful monsters from the MM are traipsing around, wreaking havoc. We have our work cut out for us.


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## Rechan (Jun 12, 2008)

These are the Masked Mute tribe refugees, I presume? 

Sounds wicked, thanks.  I am definitely taking notes of this stuff, mmyes.

(Earlier I said this setting reminds me of Exalted. It reminds me MORE of the Scarred Lands; The gods had great, vicious battles with their creations, the evil Titans, and the resulting war had pretty much scorched the land into a blasted, barren waste. The PCs are _heroes_, and can really improve the land, where bleakness rules otherwise.)


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## Paka (Jun 12, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> These are the Masked Mute tribe refugees, I presume?




No, I think Andy's character, who broke tradition with his tribe by speaking, is the only one but I could be wrong about that.

Scarred Lands, with its bleeding oceans and godswars seems a much more apt comparison to this setting than Midnight.  I can see Scarred Lands and this world having definite parallels.


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## Nellisir (Jun 12, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> In short, saying that DM's should be flexible and allow players to be imaginative about which skills they use is cool, saying some skills are auto-failures is not so cool.
> 
> I'm a hero. If I want to try to intimidate the Duke, let me roll the dice and have my damned shot.



Idea: instead of auto-failure, failure at specific skills increases the requisite number of successes.  IE, a 5-success challenge becomes a 6-success challenge.  Adds an element of risk - everything is good if you succeed, but do it badly, and you make succeeding even harder than it was.


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## proto128 (Jun 12, 2008)

There's so much win here, it's like a perfect storm of gaming.


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## Paka (Jun 12, 2008)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> Idea: instead of auto-failure, failure at specific skills increases the requisite number of successes.  IE, a 5-success challenge becomes a 6-success challenge.  Adds an element of risk - everything is good if you succeed, but do it badly, and you make succeeding even harder than it was.




Saying to the DM, "I'd like to try to use Religion to appeal to the Duke's gods."

And having the DM say, "No, that doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me; we've established that the Duke doesn't pay much heed to the gods.  There's no reason for him to listen to you talk about that.  Choose another skill."

That is fine.

But I don't want to propose using a skill and have the response be, "Religion!  No!  Auto-fail on one of the Skill Challenges!"

It'd bug me.  Your fix is better but it also draws it out more.  I'd rather the DM just flat-out told me that it doesn't work so I can find another way to contribute.


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## Nellisir (Jun 13, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> But I don't want to propose using a skill and have the response be, "Religion!  No!  Auto-fail on one of the Skill Challenges!"
> 
> It'd bug me.  Your fix is better but it also draws it out more.  I'd rather the DM just flat-out told me that it doesn't work so I can find another way to contribute.



Honestly, were I DMing, I wouldn't use my fix either.  I'd just raise the DC.  Maybe you invoke his childhood prayers.  Maybe you appeal to the fact that the Duchess is very religious, and he could curry a little favor with her by doing this "for the gods".  Maybe you dredge up an ancient prophecy with uncanny similarity to current events, uncanny enough to sway him...slightly.

In short, I don't like auto-fail either.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jun 13, 2008)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> Honestly, were I DMing, I wouldn't use my fix either.  I'd just raise the DC.  Maybe you invoke his childhood prayers.  Maybe you appeal to the fact that the Duchess is very religious, and he could curry a little favor with her by doing this "for the gods".  Maybe you dredge up an ancient prophecy with uncanny similarity to current events, uncanny enough to sway him...slightly.
> 
> In short, I don't like auto-fail either.



 I recall being torn from the thread that popped up about the Duke example.  On the one hand I don't like auto-fail; on the other hand, in the example given it really makes sense that it just wouldn't work in achieving the goal.  

Of course adjusting the DC up could in effect create an auto-fail situation if none of the PCs have enough bonuses to reach it, but technically it isn't auto-fail, it is just extraordinarily unlikely to succeed.  

Oh, and this campaign sounds fantastic.  I really love it when the PCs and the campaign are well-integrated.


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## Pseudointellectual (Jun 16, 2008)

Rechan,

The refugees are a mixture of Tieflings from the Bellatorias House fiefdom, Dragonborn hatchlings from the Varnassus Keep, and followers of the Raven Queen's from the Consort's Reliquary, as well as a few other tagalongs. I'm expecting this population to grow as people are displaced from other areas and looking for a safe place to call home.


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## redcard (Jun 16, 2008)

This looks awesome.

As for the Duke thing, I'm cool with it being an autofail.  In my opinion, I read skill challenges like this:

The closer you get to failure, the more negative the target gets to your desire. 

The closer you get to success, the more postivie the target gets to your desire.

So when you try to intimidate the Duke the first time, It's an autofail and the Duke responds "I will not .." as he does.

If , at that point, someone else tried Intimidate again, the attitude of the Duke would be ramped up.   Perhaps he'd threaten the party back with imprisonment or charges if they continued to try to intimidate him.  Maybe he'd ask that person to leave the room.  

The first one should be an autofail.  The second one should be a spike to the forehead and an autofail.  If they try it a third time, eh..


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## Aria Silverhands (Jun 16, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> But I don't want to propose using a skill and have the response be, "Religion!  No!  Auto-fail on one of the Skill Challenges!



Auto-fail has a place, imo.  Especially when the goal of the encounter is to "gain the duke's trust".  You simply don't intimidate people to gain their trust.  It's counter-productive.


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## Paka (Jun 16, 2008)

Aria Silverhands said:
			
		

> Auto-fail has a place, imo.  Especially when the goal of the encounter is to "gain the duke's trust".  You simply don't intimidate people to gain their trust.  It's counter-productive.




I am all for the DM saying, "C'mon, Judd, you are trying to earn the duke's trust; try another skill.  This one won't work for this skill challenge."

I just don't dig, "You want to try to intimidate him?  Okay. roll...FAIL!  You can't intimidate the duke!"

If you want to find a reason in the fiction why intimidate works, you can.  Perhaps, for example, the Duke likes your spunk and wants adventurers working for him who are willing to get in a noble's face before the whole court.

IMPORTANT NOTE:

I really don't want this thread to be about auto-fails in skill challenges when it should be about Bret's awesome setting.  If anyone wants to continue discussing auto-fail in skill challenges, let's take it to another thread.

Thanks.


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## Storn (Jun 17, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> I am all for the DM saying, "C'mon, Judd, you are trying to earn the duke's trust; try another skill.  This one won't work for this skill challenge."
> 
> I just don't dig, "You want to try to intimidate him?  Okay. roll...FAIL!  You can't intimidate the duke!"
> 
> ...




Mary Tyler Moore stil got the job despite Lou Grant declaring "I hate spunk!"... 

yeah, inditmidate should really be on the table.  Instead of Auto Fail, explain to the players, "Listen, the Duke is in a superior position here, hates to be bullied, you CAN Intimidate, but there is a severe -5 to the roll."  Boom.  You've made Intimidation difficult... but still a possiblity and the player now knows in the RP space that the Duke hates being pushed around.


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## med stud (Jun 17, 2008)

Can we please drop the intimidate-in-skill-challenges? This thread is too good to be derailed.


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## RabidBob (Jun 17, 2008)

Storn said:
			
		

> Mary Tyler Moore stil got the job despite Lou Grant declaring "I hate spunk!"...




Mary Tyler Moore rolled a natural 20.


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## Paka (Jun 17, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> IMPORTANT NOTE:
> 
> I really don't want this thread to be about auto-fails in skill challenges when it should be about Bret's awesome setting.  If anyone wants to continue discussing auto-fail in skill challenges, let's take it to another thread.
> 
> Thanks.




I am guilty as anyone here but let's take any further auto-fail discussion into its own thread and leave this one to its dying points of light and gonzo D&D.


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## Rechan (Jun 17, 2008)

It seems even this point of light discussion is going out!


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## Paka (Jun 17, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> It seems even this point of light discussion is going out!




We're gaming again tomorrow night, so we'll have more to talk about then.


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## RabidBob (Jun 17, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> We're gaming again tomorrow night, so we'll have more to talk about then.




Please, I'm looking forward to reading it (despite my attempts to meme Mary Tyler Moore into D&D).


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## Rechan (Jun 17, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> We're gaming again tomorrow night, so we'll have more to talk about then.



I look forward to it.  

Do you, as a party, have any concrete goals? Not speaking of personal goals (aside from discerning what your axe is, and the Eladrin finding out what happened to his people), but the direction that you all want to go towards right now.


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## LostSoul (Jun 17, 2008)

To follow up Rechan's question, how have you incorporated Quests into the game?  I'm thinking of using them like Beliefs, to a degree.


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## Paka (Jun 17, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> I look forward to it.
> 
> Do you, as a party, have any concrete goals? Not speaking of personal goals (aside from discerning what your axe is, and the Eladrin finding out what happened to his people), but the direction that you all want to go towards right now.




Right now we are just exploring our new ruins, settling the refugees in and figuring out the status quo.

We'll find our direction somewhere in there.



			
				LostSoul said:
			
		

> To follow up Rechan's question, how have you incorporated Quests into the game?  I'm thinking of using them like Beliefs, to a degree.




We each have a quest that we want to complete, always trying to have one set, kind of fodder with which Bret can make an adventure, I'd think.

I am trying to stay away from a BW mindset.  If I was in BW, I might be looking to kick Orcus in the junk but in D&D, I know that I'll have to wait until I'm 30th level or so.  I make my quests about something I, the player, am interested in but also think about my level and what helps Bret make for a cool adventure.


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## Rechan (Jun 17, 2008)

What is BW?


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## Paka (Jun 17, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> What is BW?




Burning Wheel!


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## LostSoul (Jun 17, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> We each have a quest that we want to complete, always trying to have one set, kind of fodder with which Bret can make an adventure, I'd think.
> 
> I am trying to stay away from a BW mindset.  If I was in BW, I might be looking to kick Orcus in the junk but in D&D, I know that I'll have to wait until I'm 30th level or so.  I make my quests about something I, the player, am interested in but also think about my level and what helps Bret make for a cool adventure.




That's what I'm thinking about doing.  We'll have to see how it works out!

My thoughts are: 
1 party quest.  Determined at campaign creation by the group.  It is a major quest, and the level is somewhere in the Heroic Tier.
1 or 2 optional minor quests per PC.  Created during character creation.  These are character subplots.  I'm thinking that if you want to have 2, they will conflict with each other.


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## MonkeyMage (Jun 19, 2008)

Fantastic thread! I plan on taking some ideas from this into my own game, so thanks! I'd love to listen in on your sessions, have you guys thought about doing a podcast?



ps. I'm so jealous you have a great artist like Storn in your group to do character pics and such.


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## Rechan (Jun 19, 2008)

I eagerly await news of last night's session.


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## Set (Jun 19, 2008)

This is a pretty awesome sounding campaign premise.

The masked, mute tribes really call to me.  Why do they hide their faces?  Why do they refuse to speak?  Are they hiding from something?  Are they atoning for something?  Are they guarding some terrible secret?  Do they even know?  So cool!


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## Rechan (Jun 20, 2008)

This is a bump.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Jun 20, 2008)

Well this setting and your characters are ridiculously, ridiculously cool.  Very evocative.  I particularly like how the players have brought significant influence to the setting primer:  eladrin caravans, mute masked tribes, the prominence of the Raven Queen.

This is the kind of thing that makes me go "Dammit... my setting ideas are so whitebread!" and go back to the drawing board.


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## Storn (Jun 20, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Well this setting and your characters are ridiculously, ridiculously cool.  Very evocative.  I particularly like how the players have brought significant influence to the setting primer:  eladrin caravans, mute masked tribes, the prominence of the Raven Queen.
> 
> This is the kind of thing that makes me go "Dammit... my setting ideas are so whitebread!" and go back to the drawing board.





You can listen to our podcast, Sons of Kryos... or I can distill many, many eps for you...

... do not do anything in the campaign building except rough sketching... as our GM did.  Trust your players.  Ask them to contribute. .  Talk to your players about what works and what doesn't quite fit.  Be transparent.  It really comes down to "talk to your players".  That is really it.

The Eladrin Caravan, the muted masked tribes, those were negotiations between player and GM... both trying to make it even cooler than any one mind can do.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Jun 21, 2008)

Storn said:
			
		

> ... do not do anything in the campaign building except rough sketching... as our GM did.  Trust your players.  Ask them to contribute. .  Talk to your players about what works and what doesn't quite fit.  Be transparent.  It really comes down to "talk to your players".  That is really it.




Completely agree.  I tend not to flesh out my campaign settings with too much detail, because I want the actual _game_ to fill in the details.  But after reading this, I think I'll make a more concerted effort to put together a one-page primer to create a firmer skeletal structure.  Then before and during play my players and I can fill in all the organs.

But still, my stuff feels trite and uninteresting compared to this.


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## mjukglass (Jun 21, 2008)

Storn said:
			
		

> You can listen to our podcast, Sons of Kryos... or I can distill many, many eps for you...
> 
> ... do not do anything in the campaign building except rough sketching... as our GM did.  Trust your players.  Ask them to contribute. .  Talk to your players about what works and what doesn't quite fit.  Be transparent.  It really comes down to "talk to your players".  That is really it.



Long time listerner here, I've listened to SoK on and off since episode 2 or something. While I agree to your sentiment, talking to your players when it comes to setting/campaign building requires players that actually feel like contributing. Not something everybody is comfortable or feel up to. It depends on what kind of players you have really.


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## Paka (Jun 21, 2008)

mjukglass said:
			
		

> Long time listerner here, I've listened to SoK on and off since episode 2 or something, I while I agree to your sentiment, talking to your players when it comes to setting/campaign building requires players that actually feel like contributing. Not something everybody is comfortable or feel up to. It depends on what kind of players you have really.




So, in this case, we are not out-and-out collaborating and creating a setting together.

But we did each stake out a piece of Bret's amazing initial idea and add to it in our own special ways, through character generation.  By making a Paladin of the Raven Queen, I am going to be making stuff up about that order of paladins and I added in the bits about this holy order being considered her Consorts.  Storn made up his roving quasi-Romani wanderers and the Master of Tents to go along with his character concept and on and on.

It is kind of like the Adopt-a-Highway program.  By taking a character whose background is in a little area, you are hereby charged with developing it a bit, and some of us have done this to varying degrees through our concepts.


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## Rechan (Jun 21, 2008)

Paka, update us! Update us!


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## helium3 (Jun 21, 2008)

It's a cool bit of reading, but my first thought was "good luck trying to sustain that sort of atmosphere for any length of time."

Is the party up to the challenge?


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## Paka (Jun 21, 2008)

helium3 said:
			
		

> It's a cool bit of reading, but my first thought was "good luck trying to sustain that sort of atmosphere for any length of time."
> 
> Is the party up to the challenge?




I'm not sure I understand what -sustain that sort of atmosphere for any length of time- means?

Could you give me an at-the-table example?


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## Paka (Jun 21, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Paka, update us! Update us!




I'm kinda waiting for Bret to write down some post-game write ups.

We met up with some Beetle-tongue Matrons and managed to kick their creepy asses.

More later...


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## Tao (Jun 21, 2008)

I really like the setting, possibly because it reminds me (at least to some degree) of my own.  Very well done guys.  If you're ever looking to get something published and distributed, I'd be happy to work with you all.


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## helium3 (Jun 22, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I understand what -sustain that sort of atmosphere for any length of time- means?
> 
> Could you give me an at-the-table example?




Well, as written it sounds like only very very bad things happen all the time and every victory is fleeting at best. Sort of 'ravenlofty' I suppose. So, wouldn't playing in a setting where everything sucks get sort of old rather quickly?


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## Rechan (Jun 22, 2008)

helium3 said:
			
		

> Well, as written it sounds like only very very bad things happen all the time and every victory is fleeting at best. Sort of 'ravenlofty' I suppose. So, wouldn't playing in a setting where everything sucks get sort of old rather quickly?



The implication is that the PCs, through their actions, can improve the world.


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## Baron Opal (Jun 22, 2008)

helium3 said:
			
		

> Well, as written it sounds like only very very bad things happen all the time and every victory is fleeting at best.




Indeed. Now, if only there were some heroes...


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## Paka (Jun 22, 2008)

helium3 said:
			
		

> Well, as written it sounds like only very very bad things happen all the time and every victory is fleeting at best. Sort of 'ravenlofty' I suppose. So, wouldn't playing in a setting where everything sucks get sort of old rather quickly?




I see it more as a world right in the brink of total destruction with nowhere to go but up or annihilated.

We'll fight for it going up.

Another way to look at it is just on the Points of Light continuum.  Bret liked the PoL philosophy but added the threat for two reasons:

1) It is a situation that will demand our adventuring in a very full-contact and proactive way.

2) He's imagining a world where the Monster Manual's contents have been unleashed and it ain't a pretty sight.




			
				Baron Opal said:
			
		

> Indeed. Now, if only there were some heroes...




*points to his character sheet*


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## helium3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> I see it more as a world right in the brink of total destruction with nowhere to go but up or annihilated.




Yeah. It comes off as very Dark Ages in play. Much more so than 3E.

I wasn't really trying to play up the PoL aspect during our first game today. None-the-less, their was this little bit where I explained that there were sections of Helen's Reach (My party's home base) that were abandoned because, on average, more people die every year than are born.

Just that little part got everyone into this "oh cr-p we're in the dark ages!!" sorta mood. It was even cooler when I effectively TPK'd them shortly after in the first encounter with the new system.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Jun 24, 2008)

Bump!


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## pukunui (Jun 24, 2008)

Just wanted to pop in and add my voice to the chorus shouting "Awesome!"

I'm not sure I want to make my setting this dark but I definitely want it to be darker than WotC's conceptualization (which is, imo, only superficially PoL to begin with ... I suppose in order to appeal to a broader - and younger - audience). I'm actually going for a _Myth_ feel. I'm using some of the fluff from the computer games (I bought the GURPS book, although it doesn't go into as much detail as I was hoping), but I'm not basing my setting in that world.

I'm going to steal some of your DM's ideas for my setting as well. I particularly like the God-Empress and her Holy Daughters and the ruined dragonborn hatchlings and things like that. Nice little touches.

Anyway, back to the storyboarding for me!

Cheers,
Jonathan


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## Baron Opal (Jun 24, 2008)

Paka said:
			
		

> *points to his character sheet*




Indeed.


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## Storn (Jun 27, 2008)

And this sketch was done 2 nights ago while playing 4th ed... the Beetle Matrons are tough, undead squad leaders we've fought a few times over the last few sessions.  My GM, B., made these guys up as a test of how quickly a monster could be made on the fly during a session.  Pretty fast, it turns out, and very, very cool mechanically to fight.







What was interesting about the session was no combat, just Skill Challenges... and it was tense, good fun.  

These works are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.5 License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5


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## Xer0 (Jun 27, 2008)

Wow Storn, very cool.  Gave me the willies just looking at it.  I like it a lot.


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## Rechan (Jun 27, 2008)

We have two wednesday games without reports. I are sad.

Also, I'm curious - how did you fight the beetle matrons, if the entire session was skill challenges?

Cool drawing, btw.


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## Paka (Jun 27, 2008)

Rechan said:


> We have two wednesday games without reports. I are sad.
> 
> Also, I'm curious - how did you fight the beetle matrons, if the entire session was skill challenges?
> 
> Cool drawing, btw.




I'm slowly working on a Story Hour post, first person POV from my paladin but it might take a while.

We fought the Beetle Matrons directly last week, took on two plus her undead children minions.  Eek.

This week we just flat-out ran from 'em, as they were ten in the city here and there.


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## Rechan (Jun 27, 2008)

Paka said:


> I'm slowly working on a Story Hour post, first person POV from my paladin but it might take a while.



Coolnes.



> We fought the Beetle Matrons directly last week, took on two plus her undead children minions.  Eek.



I'm curious how your DM engineered their abilities. They sound like low-level versions of Lamia. 



> This week we just flat-out ran from 'em, as they were ten in the city here and there.



I presume you guys are still in the abandoned blue lich city?


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## NarlethDrider (Jun 27, 2008)

awesome stuff---I'm using "this" as a influence on the 4E game i'll be running on the boards here---i just gotta finish up some of the races


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## aurance (Jun 28, 2008)

Storn said:


> the Beetle Matrons




Oh god my ex-girlfriend!








(I love your art.)


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## Fedifensor (Aug 4, 2008)

aurance said:


> (I love your art.)




Then, you should really like this link.


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## MacMathan (Aug 4, 2008)

Any chance for some updates?

Love the premise.


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## Brute (Jan 6, 2009)

MacMathan said:


> Any chance for some updates?
> 
> Love the premise.




Seconded!


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