# [Ranger]Twin strike misunstanding ?



## Masure (Jun 6, 2009)

Hi,

I'm starting playing D&D with a ranger. As everybody knows, you often want to max your character making the good choice.

Reading the rules, I assumed that twin strike doesn't have the STR bonus to damage (weird cause basic melee has the STR bonus). Reading the forum, everybody says Twin Strike is THE feat to take cause it does a lot damage and chance to hit.

But without the STR bonus on twin strike, damage is only the 1dx per strike which is poor IMO. As I have a +4 STR bonus, I don't understand why I should use Twin Strike when other at will have the bonus. Did I miss something ?

Regards

ps : feel free correcting my spelling/grammar

edit : ok typo on the title  and can't edit it


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## RedBeardJim (Jun 6, 2009)

Well, at low levels it's good-to-great because you get to roll twice for a chance to do damage. As you gain levels, what makes it really spectacular is that your Strength bonus gets overshadowed by all the *other* static bonuses you can accumulate from weapon enhancements, feats, etc., which *do* get added to each Twin Strike damage roll.


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## tiornys (Jun 6, 2009)

Here's some mathematical analysis of Twin Strike vs. a basic attack (which the other attacks are if you ignore the movement bonuses)

H = chance to hit
W = weapon damage
A = ability damage
S = other static damage
Q = hunter's quarry damage

A basic attack is easy to calculate.  If you hit, you get all of your damage, and if you miss, you get none.  So, it comes out to:

H*(W+A+S+Q)

Twin Strike is a bit more complicated.  It has the following average damage per attack:

H*(W+S)

And you get to make that attack twice.  You also get to add your quarry damage (Q), but you get that at most once per round.  So, to add that part of the average damage in, we need to figure out the chance that you hit at least once.  The total average damage for Twin Strike comes out as:

2*(H*(W+S)) + (1-(1-H)^2)*(Q)

Let's ignore quarry damage for a moment.  That simplifies the equations to:

basic attack vs. Twin Strike
H*(W+A+S) <> 2*(H*(W+S))

A little algebra leads to the following:

A <> W+S

Which tells us that if W+S > A, then Twin Strike will average more damage.  You said you had a Str modifier of 4, so if you're using Longswords, which average 4.5 damage per hit, then Twin Strike is better even if you have no other bonuses to damage.  Add in something like Weapon Focus or an enhancement bonus, and Twin Strike gains.  Adding in your quarry damage also favors Twin Strike, since you're more likely to hit at least once with two attacks.

Now, if you happen to be using different weapons, the W in the final equation is your offhand weapon.  If it's a shortsword, say, then right now Twin Strike is slightly worse than a basic attack if you don't have the target quarried (3.5 < 4), but as soon as you get at least 1 point of static damage modifier, that will stop being true (if you have the target quarried, the added chance at the bonus damage also makes Twin Strike better).

That help?

t~

edit: like Blackbrrd, I also ignored criticals, but as he says, criticals favor Twin Strike as well.


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## Blackbrrd (Jun 6, 2009)

A typical dex 20 ranger's basic attack VS AC 18
+7 to hit, 1d10+5(dex)+1(weapon focus) +1d6 (hunters quarry) = 50% of 14 damage or 7 average damage
Twin strike: +7 to hit, 1d10+1 x2 = 6.5x2 = 13 + (hunters quarry, 75% of 3.5 = 2.625) = 15.625.

Twin strike does 15.625/14 = 11% more damage than a basic attack.

(I am disregarding criticals that would make Twin Strike even better as it has 2x the chance to crit.)


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## Oompa (Jun 6, 2009)

Simply said..

The change of hitting twice is great, so you have a possibility to miss, do 1w or 2w damage..

And later.. when you get better weapons and the likes the damage increases..


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## keterys (Jun 6, 2009)

And don't forget twice as many critical hits, too.


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## Infiniti2000 (Jun 7, 2009)

The attached spreadsheet helps puts the numbers in perspective and can help you gauge when to use a basic attack, which is almost never.  Someone please confirm the probability calculations on the quarry and crits for twin strike.  I'm not a statistics major.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Jun 7, 2009)

And none of this is even factoring in various other potential sources of goodness from being able to hit more often. What happens when you use magic weapons with properties or powers that do extra fun stuff on a hit? There is a very good reason that Twin Strike is pretty close to being inarguably the most potent at-will in the game.


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## Nifft (Jun 7, 2009)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> There is a very good reason that Twin Strike is pretty close to being inarguably the most potent at-will in the game.



 Yeah, it's right up there with Righteous Brand.

Cheers, -- N


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## CapnZapp (Jun 7, 2009)

Twin Strike doubles the chance of nailing the foe with Hunter's Quarry too...

So in short, don't worry, Twin Strike is one of the best at-wills in the game altogether.


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## Doctor Proctor (Jun 8, 2009)

For an 18 STR melee ranger, Twin Strike is a pretty good power.  However, if you want to use something else (especially early in the game), feel free to do so.  Careful Strike has it's uses, and Nimble Strike can be a pretty effective melee power.

So, despite what the optimizers may say, feel free to use those abilities for now.  They're not BAD in and of themselves, and at 1st level they can actually be better than Twin Strike in some cases.


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## Nifft (Jun 8, 2009)

Doctor Proctor said:


> For an 18 STR melee ranger, Twin Strike is a pretty good power.



 If by "pretty good" you mean "among the best two at-wills in the whole game", then we agree. (This category may go up to three when I'm done running the numbers on the Artificer's Magic Weapon power, which is certainly in the ZOMG awesome tier.)



Doctor Proctor said:


> Careful Strike has it's uses



 It's always worse than a basic attack. It's always MUCH worse than Twin Strike.

Its only use is to serve as a warning to other powers: "don't be like him".

In other words, don't take Careful Strike unless your character concept is to suck.

Cheers, -- N


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## Saeviomagy (Jun 8, 2009)

For a low level ranger, the important thing to remember is that you apply quarry damage AFTER determining whether you hit.

Even without that,the increased chance to hit that you gain from swinging twice is a bigger benefit than losing str bonus to damage is a penalty.

Later on, str bonus can end up being a trivial contribution to your damage, so getting to potentially hit twice is massive.

(incidentally: careful attack/sure strike DOES become better than a basic attack with a high enough damage bonus, but twin strike becomes massively better, so you still shouldn't use careful attack/sure strike).


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## javcs (Jun 8, 2009)

Doctor Proctor said:


> For an 18 STR melee ranger, Twin Strike is a pretty good power.  However, if you want to use something else (especially early in the game), feel free to do so.  Careful Strike has it's uses, and Nimble Strike can be a pretty effective melee power.
> 
> So, despite what the optimizers may say, feel free to use those abilities for now.  They're not BAD in and of themselves, and at 1st level they can actually be better than Twin Strike in some cases.




Careful Strike is overrated. Sure, at first glance it _looks_ like it could be useful, but I would _never_ take it.  There is no point in taking Careful Strike - there is no point at which it is superior to Twin Strike (if there is a point, it is at best a range of 2-3 values on a d20 required to hit with Careful Strike, and it is only marginally better). 

Nimble Strike is a ranged weapon power, not melee. Hit and Run is melee. They are situationally good powers - ie, usually when you need to book it and/or otherwise gtfo of combat. In those situations, then yes, they can be a better option than Twin Strike, but, then again, you've already lost at that point.

As a ranger, my two at-wills are Twin Strike and Hit and Run or Nimble Strike, depending on whether I'm going melee or ranged; if I'm human, the bonus at will is the other - Nimble Strike or Hit and Run.


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## Obryn (Jun 8, 2009)

In fairness to Careful Strike (and the Fighter's identical power), there are now approximately 1 bazillion feats which modify it to a state of lesser-suckitude.

You're probably better off with Twin Strike, still, but if you must take Careful Strike, at least look into those feats.

-O


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## Infiniti2000 (Jun 9, 2009)

Nifft said:


> It's always worse than a basic attack.



 This is not true, as the revised spreadsheet shows.  For high AC monsters, careful strike starts to be better than a basic attack.  Similarly, this would apply in the case of, say, penalties (like invisible opponents).  One interesting thing is that a better [W] actually favors Careful attack, though both use it.  Thus, if you use a greatbow, Careful Strike inches one more row on the spreadsheet vs. Basic attacks.  



Nifft said:


> It's always MUCH worse than Twin Strike.



Not always, though I would agree MUCH worse for a long time.  However, Careful Strike does have a sharper curve and therefore actually catches up (in the default values I provided).  Tweak the numbers for further analysis, though.  (Note: the graph is inverted so that the higher the line goes the 'better' it is for that power.)


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## Stalker0 (Jun 9, 2009)

Infiniti2000 said:


> Not always, though I would agree MUCH worse for a long time.  However, Careful Strike does have a sharper curve and therefore actually catches up (in the default values I provided).  Tweak the numbers for further analysis, though.  (Note: the graph is inverted so that the higher the line goes the 'better' it is for that power.)




I would argue that in 4e I will never see a fight (that is intended to be an actual fight) where I need to a roll a 20 to hit. In other words, the areas where careful strike would actually win never happen, so once again twin strike comes out ahead.


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## fnwc (Jun 9, 2009)

Stalker0 said:


> I would argue that in 4e I will never see a fight (that is intended to be an actual fight) where I need to a roll a 20 to hit. In other words, the areas where careful strike would actually win never happen, so once again twin strike comes out ahead.



This. The only time you might encounter something in a real fight is when you are under the effect of some kind of specific controller effect, which is pretty situational for an at-will.


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## Baumi (Jun 9, 2009)

Masure said:


> Hi,
> Reading the rules, I assumed that twin strike doesn't have the STR bonus to damage (weird cause basic melee has the STR bonus). Reading the forum, everybody says Twin Strike is THE feat to take cause it does a lot damage and chance to hit.





How can you take Twin Strike as a Feat?


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## Infiniti2000 (Jun 9, 2009)

Stalker0 said:


> I would argue that in 4e I will never see a fight (that is intended to be an actual fight) where I need to a roll a 20 to hit. In other words, the areas where careful strike would actually win never happen, so once again twin strike comes out ahead.



 Never say never, particularly when statistics are at hand.    And here I thought you liked statistics given your whole skill challenge foray.


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## Obryn (Jun 9, 2009)

Infiniti2000 said:


> Never say never, particularly when statistics are at hand.    And here I thought you liked statistics given your whole skill challenge foray.



I think his point is that, unless the DM is throwing Level +10 monsters against the party, you won't see those ACs in actual play.

-O


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## msherman (Jun 9, 2009)

You left crit bonus damage out of the spreadsheet. If you include it, it doesn't change the curves much, but it does knock Careful out of the lead for AC 20 once you get up to 2d6 bonus damage.


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## keterys (Jun 9, 2009)

It also looks like quarry's crit damage isn't done correctly. It maximizes on crits but the spreadsheet doesn't do that.

Adding in a crit damage die plus fixing that quarry expression has twin strike worse for 20 on a non-magical weapon and better on even a generic +1's d6... though just barely. A d4 crit weapon would still have careful strike better in that one lone instance.


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## Infiniti2000 (Jun 10, 2009)

keterys said:


> It also looks like quarry's crit damage isn't done correctly. It maximizes on crits but the spreadsheet doesn't do that.



 Good catch, keterys and msherman.  The attached fixes it, for those who do not want to try and fix it themselves.  I also provided a mechanism to put in the number of dice for [W], quarry, and crits.

Obryn, a level +4 monster with a good AC and a way to give a penalty of -5 or so could reach the 20 mark.  Say, like a black dragon.


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## Entropi (Jun 10, 2009)

Superior cover or total concealment are also -5, and other situational modifiers could apply as well.  So never say never.

Kinda discouraging that Careful is so inferior though.  I made a human ranger because I liked Careful, Twin, and Nimble.

I suspect there might still be situational uses for Careful (some buff or debuff, feat, or some synergy somewhere that would screw over a 2-attack power vs a 1-attack power, but I can't think of one atm).


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