# Falchion and improved critical



## pbd (Oct 21, 2004)

Do people think that the falchion, a 2-handed martial weapon with a threatrange of 18-20 x2, is too powerful once improved critical is added?  The threat range becomes 15-20 x2, so basically it would threaten a critical about 30% of the time.  

I am playing a fighter/dervish (cool PrC by the way) that wields one and my DM looked at me funny when I told what would happen when I took improved critical.  

Have others run found this to be too powerful?  It looks good to me (my character remember), basically the increased threat range makes up for the poor damage.

pbd


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## Scion (Oct 21, 2004)

Improved crit and keen do not stack in 3.5.

However, even if they did then no, it is not too powerful.

There are several threads that run the numbers, and while people do disagree with what those numbers say exactly very few people have any problem with a single instance of improved crit or keen. A good portion of the time it is actually numberically 'better' to have a simple +1 instead of keen. As far as feats go getting another tactical option is sometimes better (depends on the campaign as to what might be better)

The dervish gets a lot of attacks, but the average damage per attack after improved crit is still reasonable. Is falchion useable by it? I thought it was only rapiers or something..


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## Kabol (Oct 21, 2004)

As I understand it - Mathimaticaly - Improved Crit helps a Falchion weilder jsut as mush as it does a Greatsword user, or Greatclub User.  In that, the Increased dmg % is the same across the board.


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## pbd (Oct 21, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Improved crit and keen do not stack in 3.5.
> 
> The dervish gets a lot of attacks, but the average damage per attack after improved crit is still reasonable. Is falchion useable by it? I thought it was only rapiers or something..




I rememebered the keen not stacking and took it ut of my post...

Also, the dervish PrC just requires a slashing weapon.  However, scimitars count as light weapons for the PrC, so you can use them for TWF with the minimum penalty.


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## Klaus (Oct 21, 2004)

They're not overpowered.

Imp. Crit + Falchion = 2d4 /15-20, x2. (does 4d4, or 4-16, 30% of the time)

Imp. Crit + Greatsword = 2d6 / 17-20, x2 (does 4d6, or 4-24, 20% of the time)

Imp. Crit + Greataxe = 1d12 / 19-20, x3. (does 3d12, or 3-36, 10% of the time)

They all balance out.


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## Enkhidu (Oct 21, 2004)

If you really want to freak your DM out, make sure that you power attack with the falchion almost all the time. That's really the only place I see it getting outrageous.


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## Scion (Oct 21, 2004)

Enkhidu said:
			
		

> If you really want to freak your DM out, make sure that you power attack with the falchion almost all the time. That's really the only place I see it getting outrageous.




which I personally see as a direct result of the change to power attack being a bad one rather than improved crit being odd. 2 for 1 is just too good.


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## was (Oct 21, 2004)

Just remind your DM that by using a two-handed weapon you sacrificed the AC bonus you could have gotten from a shield.  Thus, while you do more damage and have a higher crit range, you're easier to hit...just a thought...


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## ARandomGod (Oct 21, 2004)

If Keen and Improved Crit. don't stack the Terrorists will have won.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html

A nice rant/list of stats for you to browse through.


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## Darklone (Oct 21, 2004)

Klaus said:
			
		

> They're not overpowered.
> 
> Imp. Crit + Falchion = 2d4 /15-20, x2. (does 4d4, or 4-16, 30% of the time)
> 
> ...



With Power Attack and high strength bonus, the falchion gets better and better


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## Nail (Oct 21, 2004)

About two weeks ago I was involved in a thread about this.  IIRC, Scion and I were on opposite sides of the issue.

Since then and after running through lots of numbers, I've changed my mind.  Impr. Critical isn't that great, even for a Falchion; and stacking Keen on top of that wouldn't be outragous either.   I know it sounds like a no-brainer: surely something that threatens 45% of the time should be incredibly powerful?!?

No so, in this case.  Run the numbers and see for yourself!

The equation is:
  A = PD[1+Pc(Mc-1)]  + PDb

Where:
A = average damage per attack
P = probability to hit, as a fraction (remember: max of 0.95, min of 0.05!)
Pc = Probability to critical, as a fraction (threat range of 18 - 20 would be 0.15)
Mc = Critical multiplier (for a Falchion it's = 2)
Db = Damage dice that are not multiplied by a critical, like energy or sneak attack

I'd be happy to walk you through it, if you wish.

Compare your uber-crit falchion vs a greatsword.  Greatsword still wins!  Huh.


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## Garnfellow (Oct 21, 2004)

Personally, I made the falchion an exotic weapon in my campaign. I haven't broken out the math, though -- that was just a gut response.


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## Enkhidu (Oct 21, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> which I personally see as a direct result of the change to power attack being a bad one rather than improved crit being odd. 2 for 1 is just too good.




Yet even at 1 for 1 instead of 2 for 1 (and with the a grasp of the "art" of partial power attack), a falchion gets a fairly decent boost in damage from Improved Crit.


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## Nail (Oct 21, 2004)

Garnfellow said:
			
		

> Personally, I made the falchion an exotic weapon in my campaign. I haven't broken out the math, though -- that was just a gut response.



Nothing against yer gut, but: falchion ain't nothin' special.  The numbers do not support your hunch.  Revert it back to a martial weapon.


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## silentspace (Oct 21, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> Pc = Probability to critical, as a fraction (threat range of 18 - 20 would be 0.15)




Pc for a threat range of 18-20 should be lower than 0.15, since every threat is not an automatic critical.

If this is factored in, it will tend to increase damage for the falchion vs the greatsword (by how much I don't know - I'm not running the numbers).

Power attack against lower AC creatures will further increase damage for the falchion, as can be seen in the formula.


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## Nail (Oct 21, 2004)

silentspace said:
			
		

> Pc for a threat range of 18-20 should be lower than 0.15, since every threat is not an automatic critical.



Already factored in, my friend.  Look at the formula again.


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## silentspace (Oct 21, 2004)

Ah...


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## silentspace (Oct 21, 2004)

But then Pc is a variable number.  
For a falchion:
If P >= 0.15, Pc = 0.15
If P = 0.10, Pc = 0.10
If P = 0.05, Pc = 0.05

No?


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## Nail (Oct 21, 2004)

Here, let's try this:

Average damage is gonna be: (using the symbols above)

P * D <= that's the average damage from a normal hit

plus

P * D *Pc *(Mc -1)  <= that's the extra damage from a confirmed critical.  See how the Probability to critical (Pc) is multiplied by the Probability?  That takes into account confirming the threat.  The multiplier has 1 subtracted from it to account for only the extra damage from a confirmed critical.

Put the two peices together:

P * D      +      P * D *Pc *(Mc -1)  

.....and factor out the common "P*D":

=PD[1+Pc(Mc-1)]

It's all good!


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## kigmatzomat (Oct 21, 2004)

If you want to make your DM twitch, buy a Sunblade but have it crafted as a falchion.  That way instead of the Bastard/Shortsword profiency it uses Falchion/scimitar.  Now get two of them and go glowing TWF on some poor undead with massive curving swords in each hand.  
Booya!


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## Scion (Oct 21, 2004)

Enkhidu said:
			
		

> Yet even at 1 for 1 instead of 2 for 1 (and with the a grasp of the "art" of partial power attack), a falchion gets a fairly decent boost in damage from Improved Crit.




Note I didnt say that going to 1 to 1 was the solution either 

Also, for every point you give up to hit with is another percentage to miss and another to fail at confirming the roll. Those are pretty big hits there. One has to be incredibly good at finessing the power attack at that point to get enough usefulness out of it.

But, even if the falchion was strictly better with the proper feats in every situation where they are applicable there is still an incredibly large subset of creatures that are immune. Against them he does strictly less damage.

I would rather have someone in my game with a x2 crit multiplier weapon than a x4 one as well. The x4 is just too swingy, even though they work out to be effectively the same mathematically. But of course that is neither here nor there.

Oh, and hey nail  glad you broke out the numbers again.


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## Patlin (Oct 22, 2004)

I've played with the formula provided a bit, and it's amazing how decisively the greatsword beats the falchion.  Maybe the falchion is actually a bad choice.... though the shere pleasure of rolling a crit does make up for it in a way not adressable by mathematics.

Surprisingly, even with +5 Collision weapons, which ought to favor the falchion since it minimizes the dice, greatswords remain in the lead.  I'm having trouble swallowing that one.  My intuition doesn't match my math.


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## Alex (Oct 22, 2004)

*Imp. Crit and Keen Edge*

Why take away the Imp Crit/Keen Edge Combo?

Is it me or is 3.5 just a big nerf fest of everything that was cool about 3.0?  Did they actually add any value into the game or just nerf all the rules that uncreative players couldn't come up with on their own.

Personally, I very much miss the days of hasted mages casting two spells a round, whirling dervishing criting on 12s with the scimitars, and priests killing off even the most powerful demons and dragons with a simple harm...well, nevermind, I don't miss that, harm was broken.


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## Patlin (Oct 22, 2004)

Patlin said:
			
		

> My intuition doesn't match my math.




This is an illusion: I disbelieve    -- There's a problem with the formula.  Specifically, it treats chance to hit and chance of a threat as two independent variables.  They are not.  In order to be independent, we would need to roll a seperate d20.  Here's an example of the problem.

Posit an example where a hit only occurs on a roll of 18 or higher.  100% of succesfull hits with a falchion are threats (or 66.7% of hits with a greatsword.)  Unless I greatly misunderstand, the formula only assumes 15% (or 10%) of those to be threats, and then checks to see if they are confirmed.  I'm not sure what the full effect of this is, but I believe it causes the falchion to be at a competitive disadvantage greater than is realistic.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Oct 22, 2004)

I think Nail already explained:



			
				NAIL said:
			
		

> Here, let's try this:
> 
> Average damage is gonna be: (using the symbols above)
> 
> ...




The only thing I think needs to be changed is that Pc is really Min(Pc,P), and not merely Pc.

Otherwise, for most AC ranges, this equation works fine.

In fact, making the change I mention above favors the greatsword.

EDIT: So, yes, basically, I agree with what you said, but I disagree with your conclusions.


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## ForceUser (Oct 22, 2004)

For the last five months or so I've been playing a dwarven barbarian/fighter with a falchion and the improved critical feat. It's a groovy combo, but it doesn't break the game. First, you can't crit everything. Second, you only crit about 30% of the time, as was mentioned earlier in this thread. It's a _fun_ combo, especially when you Power Attack a lot (2:1, of course) as my character does, but it's not especially game-winning. Third, at the levels you gain Improved Critical, mobility is beginning to become an issue for most melee characters, as is reach. It's rare that my character gets more than a single consecutive round of the full attack action, thus severely limiting his crit potential. After all, if you can't hit, you can't crit. Throw invisible foes, flying foes, foes with reach, foes with magic defenses such as _blur_ or incorporealness, and foes who can't be criticaled anyway into the mix, and you've got a potpourri of reasons why Improved Critical is cool, fun, and extremely f*cking groovy every once in a while, but not especially powerful. Which is about right for a feat.

Incidentally, my falchion/crit guy also took Resounding Blow from the _Book of Exalted Deeds_. So when he forces a crit, his foe has to make a Will save or cower for a whole round. Happens even less often than a crit, naturally, but it's so _fun_ when it does. Nothing like watching a fire giant cower before a dwarf!


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## cignus_pfaccari (Oct 22, 2004)

kigmatzomat said:
			
		

> If you want to make your DM twitch, buy a Sunblade but have it crafted as a falchion.  That way instead of the Bastard/Shortsword profiency it uses Falchion/scimitar.  Now get two of them and go glowing TWF on some poor undead with massive curving swords in each hand.
> Booya!




...I like your style.

Brad


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## FireLance (Oct 22, 2004)

The thing to remember about high threat range weapons such as the rapier and the falchion is this: they need high damage bonuses (that are multiplied on a critical) to be effective. Once the damage bonus is high enough, they outperform weapons with a lower threat range but higher base damage.

"High enough" can be quite high, though. A falchion only outperforms a greatsword when the damage bonus is +40 or higher. With Improved Critical or Keen, it outperforms a greatsword when the damage bonus is +21 or higher. With Improved Critical and Keen, it needs a damage bonus of +16.

You can play around with the numbers in the attached Excel spreadsheet and see for yourself.


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## Aust Diamondew (Oct 22, 2004)

Garnfellow said:
			
		

> Personally, I made the falchion an exotic weapon in my campaign. I haven't broken out the math, though -- that was just a gut response.




Bad instinct.  Switch it to martial.  Thats like make the great sword exotic because it does  .5 points damage more on average than the great axe, except the falchion doesn't actually do more damage than any other 2 handed weapon on average (unless it's vorpal).


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## Nail (Oct 22, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Oh, and hey nail  glad you broke out the numbers again.





See?  Even a grown man can change his mind, given a convincing list of facts.




			
				Patlin said:
			
		

> There's a problem with the formula. Specifically, it treats chance to hit and chance of a threat as two independent variables. They are not.



They are, actually....along most of their range.  

The formula I provided does not take into account the "end members".   It's algebra, after all, rather than a spreadsheet formula.   For that you need "Min/Max" functions.  Heck, you need those just to cover the cases of rolling a 1 or a 20.....so they have to be in there.

But that formula provides the base for the spreadsheet formula.  Here's what I use: (xls, obviously)

Probability to Hit ("P"): =MIN(MAX(21-AC+Atk1,1),19)/20

Average Damage per Attack ("A"): =P*(D*(1+MIN(Pc/20,P)*(Mc-1))+Dbonus)


How many of you does that scare off?


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## kigmatzomat (Oct 22, 2004)

BTW, if you want the imp crit/keen falchion to be a more frightening weapon, add in a Bless Weapon spell.  Autocrits on all threats vs evil creatures.  A brutal add on for a Dervish.  

Pity the poor Thorcaisid,  an evil, epic, negative energy, critable insect, when faced by a paladin dervish weilding a pair of blessed solar falchions.  +4 weapon, double damage at all times, triple from all crit-threats that hit.   

Can you tell I was surprised a few sessions ago by one of my players?


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## ForceUser (Oct 22, 2004)

kigmatzomat said:
			
		

> BTW, if you want the imp crit/keen falchion to be a more frightening weapon, add in a Bless Weapon spell.  Autocrits on all threats vs evil creatures.  A brutal add on for a Dervish.
> 
> Pity the poor Thorcaisid,  an evil, epic, negative energy, critable insect, when faced by a paladin dervish weilding a pair of blessed solar falchions.  +4 weapon, double damage at all times, triple from all crit-threats that hit.
> 
> Can you tell I was surprised a few sessions ago by one of my players?



How can you have a paladin/dervish? Paladins are required to be lawful, and dervishes are required to be chaotic.


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## FireLance (Oct 23, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> How can you have a paladin/dervish? Paladins are required to be lawful, and dervishes are required to be chaotic.



I think he's referring to the Dervish PrC in _Complete Warrior_, which does not have to be chaotic.


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## Eremite (Oct 23, 2004)

Garnfellow said:
			
		

> Personally, I made the falchion an exotic weapon in my campaign. I haven't broken out the math, though -- that was just a gut response.




Similarly, I've been contemplating making the falchion like the bastard sword: a two-handed Martial weapon or a one-handed Exotic weapon. Has anyone done the same? Has it caused any problems?

At the risk of sounding like I encourage munchkinism, I allow Keen (or Impact for bludgeoning) and Improved Critical to stack. I treat Keen as an Enhancement bonus to the critical range and Improved Critical as a Competence bonus. I am also very careful about allowing PrCs that expand the crit ranges further.


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## shilsen (Oct 23, 2004)

Eremite said:
			
		

> At the risk of sounding like I encourage munchkinism, I allow Keen (or Impact for bludgeoning) and Improved Critical to stack. I treat Keen as an Enhancement bonus to the critical range and Improved Critical as a Competence bonus. I am also very careful about allowing PrCs that expand the crit ranges further.




You don't sound like you encourage munchkinism. As long as you're not allowing PrCs to expand the crit range further, stacking Keen and Imp. Critical will hardly unbalance the game.


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## kigmatzomat (Oct 25, 2004)

Actually I wrote up my own Dervish class many months ago.  It's sufficiently similar to the CW Dervish that most of the time I don't mention it as a house-rule.


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## Particle_Man (Oct 26, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> Probability to Hit ("P"): =MIN(MAX(21-AC+Atk1,1),19)/20
> 
> Average Damage per Attack ("A"): =P*(D*(1+MIN(Pc/20,P)*(Mc-1))+Dbonus)




[Rolls...Fails Will save...Head EXPLODES!]


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