# Demonic Lore



## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

OK, I was trying to do a favor for a couple of guys who say they are writing a book about demons.    besides, I thought it would be cool to just collect this stuff for the rest of us, as well.  

I collected a lot of info from various sources and posted it, but it is very spaced-out and not easy to locate all of it, so I decided to repost it all here one last time.  Besides the obvious places to look for demon-info (any monster book which features demons, Planes of Chaos and most other Planescape books, 1E & 3E Manual of the Planes, OP1 Tales of the Outer Planes, Book of Vile Darkness, etc.), there are many, many books out there that contain tidbits of demonic lore that may or may not be useful.  

Of course, given that the book in question is only going to be a mere 160 pages (why???), the editors will have to pick and choose what they think needs to fit in there.  Not only do they have previously written material to consider, but they undoubtedly have a whole lot of their own ideas that they want to use.  So it is not up to me to decide what is worthy; I'm just going to post everything I see.  

Feel free to add to this!  Any reference to demons, the Abyss, or anything that lives there or comes from there is fair game.  Also, references to particular demons (Bob the Balor, Susie the Succubus) in modules or sourcebooks would be nice.

Use this info as you will.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

Here are some links, and other things that I have found:

Pants' ever-popular "Demons/daemons/devils, New/Converted" thread.
My Critter Bits and Magic Recipes thread, which, I'm sure must contain a reference or two on demons or other fiends. 
All the Different Types of Demons!

some Abyssal denizens i have known and loved (and converted):
Bulezau, likely enough to be in Baphomet's Demonomicon article.  
Molydeus
Thunderbeast - it's what's for dinner!  If you're a demon at least.  

http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/theabyss.html
http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/abyssallords.html
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_abyss_planes.html

some neat old ENWorld links, using the nifty search function:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=34694
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=31742
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=25030
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=16185
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=29580
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=23750
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=26952
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=30139

Lords of the Abyss (mixed in with some Tome of Horrors lore): http://pub123.ezboard.com/fnecroman...cID=518.top ic

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=65324
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=78968
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=150872
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=387276

From this awesome thread, there are the Abyssal monsters (aside from the expected demons) appearing: 
Visage (now in Libris Mortis)
Viper tree (from Planes of Chaos)
Ship of Chaos ("In the Abyss" module)
Shadow Hound ("Giantcraft" accessory)
Tanar'ri Living Fortress (Dragon #233)
Dirtwraith (Dragon #270, "Minions of Iuz")


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

Demon Lords (and other unique powerful demons)!
Gathered up from the thread that I started, we have quite a few names now.  The most obvious ones are from the BoVD: Orcus, Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Juiblex, Yeenoghu.  Pazuzu, Fraz-ubr?luu, and Zuggtmoy have all been featured in the Demonomicon articles, and Baphomet and Kostchtchie are likely to follow suit in the not-too-distant future.  There is also Kerzit from Dungeon #112, and Eltab from Champions of Ruin, and Rhyxali.

From the 1st edition Monster Manual II, we have a number of undescribed demons:
Demon Princes (those with their own layer):Abraxas, Ahrimanes, Anarazel, Ansitif, Areex, Aseroth, Astaroth, Azazel, Dagon, Eblis, Erishkigel, Mastiphal, Nocticula (female), Obox-ob, Socothbenoth
Demon Lords (those without their own layer):Ahazu, Aldinach (female), Alrunes (female), Ardat (female), Asima, Azael, Barbu (female), Bayemon, Bechard, Baltazo, Cabiri, Charun, Gresil, Laraie, Munkir, Nekir, Nergel, Soneillon (female), Verin

Planescape detailed a number of demon lords, generally all without stats: 
Alvarez, Eldanoth, Lupercio, Lynkhab, Pale Night, and Verin (Faces of Evil: the Fiends), as well as Alzrius, Lissa'aere, and Vucarik (Hellbound: The Blood War).

Sess'innek was introduced in Monstrous Mythology, and most recently appeared in Serpent Kingdoms.

Zanassu was introduced in Empires of the Sands, and reported dead in Demihuman Deities.

Queen of Chaos and Miska the Wolf-Spider featured heavily in the Rod of Seven Parts boxed set.

Sch'theraqpasstt was detailed in Dragon #151, and was really the only demon to appear that way in Dragon until Turaglas the Ebon Maw (#312), and then when the Demonomicon articles started.  The lord Argolcheir was mentioned in Dragon #116 ("Rogue Stones and Gemjumping") but was said to have been destroyed.

Speaking of the Demonomicon articles, each one mentions one or two new demons: Lamashtu (#329), Ugudenk (#333), Haagenti, and Yibyiru (#337).

Several obscure demon lords have appeared in the pages of Dungeon Magazine: Arzial (#13, "The Ruins of Nol-Daer"), Ilsidahur (#10, "The Shrine of Ilsidahur"), J'zzalshrak (#64, "Bzallin's Blacksphere"), Shaktari (#60, "Nemesis"), Shami-Amourae (#5, "The Stolen Power"),Siragle (#28, "Sleepless").  Malcanthet was mentioned in Dungeon #112 & 124, the Maure Castle issues, and Adimarchus appeared in #116.

The demon prince Nql was mentioned in the old Eldritch Wizardry book, in the entry on the Codex of the Infinite Planes, and never mentioned again.

Xazivort, a very minor demon lord, appeared in From the Ashes.

A few demon lords were mentioned in various Planescape products but not particularly detailed at all: Lindyrm (The Deva Spark), Thralhavoc (On Hallowed Ground), Volisupula (Planes of Chaos, in the Chaos Adventures booklet), Zzyczesiya (Faces of Evil)

Orcus and Demogorgon also appeared in the basic D&D rules (I forget exactly where), so there is always the potential for a Mystara connection. 


Not demon lords, but other named major demons (form ye olde Monster Manual II index):
Type VI: Alzoll, Balor, Errtu, Ndulu, Ter-Soth, Wendonai
Type V: Aishapra, Kevokulli, Marilith, Rehnaremme
Type IV: Bilwhr, Johud, Nalfeshnee


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

I went looking on the Dragon Archive CD, using the search term "Abyss," as well as each of the major demon lords by name.  I simply don't have the time in my life to look up the word "demon," but if anyone else could add to that, it would be swell.  

Demonology Made Easy (#20): There's a cool picture of Orcus here.  Useful article, too.

From the Sorcerer's Scroll (#23): The first appearance of the random demon generation table, which would later appear in the 1E DMG, and would later become the basis for the hordlings.

From the Sorcerer's Scroll (#28): EGG gives some insight into how the demons, devils, and daemons relate to each other.

Meeting Demogorgon (#36): 

Patron Demons (#42): The topic should be obvious from the title!

Demons, Devils, and Spirits (#42): Hacamuli, a servant of Orcus appears.

Creatures From Elsewhere (#47): Features the Sugo, originally created by Juiblex, but they turned against him and all things chaotic.

Dragon's Bestiary (#54): The Incubus, the male counterpart to the succubus, is featured.

Down-to-earth Divinity (#54): Ed Greenwood mentions a beast cult demigod named Repra, King of Serpents, based in the Abyss. (a google search suggests this being was destroyed by Sseth)

But not least: The Humanoids (#63): Roger Moore's demihuman perspectives article series first presents the shoosuva.  

Greyhawk's World (#64): The god Raxivort was once a mortal xvart became ruler of all xvarts and was granted much power by a demon (rumored to be Graz'zt).

 Leomund's Tiny Hut (#76): Hey, since the death master is returning in the Dragon Compendium, you have a potential for a crossover here when mentioning their master Orcus...

 Setting Saintly Standards (#79): St. Kargoth, King of the Death Knights, appears. Also St. Bane the Scourger, who killed Orcus' servant the witch-ghoul Khuul and nearly Orcus himself.

Clerics Must be Deity-Bound (#85): The suggestion is made that Anubis probably hates Orcus, most likely due to portfolio conflicts.

The Ecology Of The Ixitxachitl (#85): Since the evil rays serve Demogorgon, Orcus sends marine undead (such as lacedons) to oppose them.

The Ecology of the Leucrotta (#91): Observers that have seen Kostchtchie say that he is often accompanied by leucrotta.

The Goristro Revealed (#91): The first appearance of this demon, which later appeared in Planes of Chaos, and 3E's Manual of the Planes.

Creature Catalog III (#101): Featuring the Tener, which is sometimes found on the Abyss.

Bazaar of the Bizarre (#117): Features the Ring of Lolth, a minor artifact.

#117: An answer to a trivia question: "Yeenoghu and Baphomet are currently at war (MMII, page 36)"

The Dragon's Bestiary (#118): Features the Phoenix Spider, an inhabitant of the Abyss.

 The Uldra (#119): The uldra god Aslak once united with Moradin and Garl Glittergold to fight against Demogorgon and several major demon princes he had united with.

A Touch of Evil (#126): Suggests that death knights are bound to Demogorgon, and that the ghast is powerful due to "continued exposure to the magical forces of the Abyss." Likewise, Orcus and Demogorgon are blamed for skeletal warriors, and Orcus claims vampires as his servants.

 Orcs Throw Spells, Too! (#141): Gnoll shamans of Yeenoghu are discussed.

 Dragon's Bestiary: Nonhuman Creatures With Human Form (#141): Features the Black Troll, a troll variant created by breeding with demons.

Ecology of the Yuan-Ti (#151): includes info on a former god of the yuan-ti, turned demon lord.

The Game Wizards (#165): Ah, the beginning of the end for the demons and devils. They had already been removed from AD&D with the advent of 2E, now with this review of Monstrous Compendium 8: The Outer Planes, (Jan 1991 - Planescape, as stated previously, debuted in 1994) we see the seeds for the Blood War, "baatezu," and "tanar'ri" as well as them being described as "races" of fiends for the first time. The archdemons and archdevils are removed from the picture entirely, and the demons and devils have been officially neutered until 3E is released.

The Sociology of the Flind (#173): Yeenoghu is mentioned a number of time in the footnotes section.

The Known World Grimoire (#196): The orcish Tribe of the Sea Plague have their patron as Oruguz (a.k.a. Orcus).

Fiend Knights and Dark Artifacts (#206): Featuring material cut from "Ivid the Undying".

Ecology of the Neogi (#214): One of the five gods introduced for the Neogi is Thrig'ki, a lesser power from the Abyss.

Dragon's Bestiary: Lords of Chaos (#221): A tale is related of how the slaad lord Ssendam repelled a demonic invasion of the Spawning Stone.

 Campaign Classics: Three Greyhawk Grimoires (#225): Iggwilv's Nethertome, a work lesser known than her Demonomicon (which the article squeamishly refers to as the "Fiendomicon"), features some backstory as well as two new spells - Iggwilv's Lightning Cage and Iggwilv's Timeless Sleep.

Fiendish Fortresses (#233): By Monte Cook, features the tanar'ri Living Fortresses, and the Fist of Graz'zt, an artifact that amplifies damage done by spells, used in the Blood War.


Not on the CD, but might still be interesting:
270: Armor of the Abyssal Lords, Paul Fraser


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 17, 2005)

_Illssender_ (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 24) A balor, one of the greatest warleaders of his kind, ruler of a tower on the 313th layer of the Abyss (if not the entire layer).

_Taramanda_ (Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 24) A marilith general, ruler of a sprawling fortress in Blood Tor, catalogued as the 13th layer of the Abyss.

_The Marquesse of Loss_ (ibid.) One of the subtlest and most influential of the nalfeshnee lords of Woeful Escarond, catalogued as the 400th layer of the Abyss.

_Oulstra_ (ibid.) A balor, once a nalfeshnee rival of the Marquesse of Loss. Continues to have a bitter rivalry with her former colleague.

_Judge Gabberslug_ (Uncaged: Faces of Sigil) A former nalfeshnee Lord of Woe (like the Marquesse of Loss and Oulstra), exiled to Sigil and the Negative Energy Plane. 

_Alusiel_ (Faces of Evil: the Fiends, page 63) A fallen trumpet archon, ruler of the city Mal Arundak in the Rainless Waste (catalogued as the 403rd layer). Alusiel is growing increasingly demonic with the passing years.

_Thralhavoc_ (Hellbound: War Games, page 56) Former ruler of the 348th layer of the Abyss, abandoned it deliberately to focus on his more important layers.

_Taphaeon_ (Hellbound [ibid], the Manual of the Planes, Book of Vile Darkness) A nalfeshnee, wielder of the Despoiler of Flesh, ruler of the Fortress of Indifference.

_Tarnhem_: The balor who formally ruled the layer called Noisome Vale, which is mentioned in the Manual of the Planes and originally appeared in the _Dungeon Master's Guidebook_ by Bruce Cordell.

_The Knight Errant_: A humanoid demon bound about with rings of cold fire and dripping with lightning. It allows no one who look at it to live, no matter how far it must hunt those who try to flee. From Faces of Evil: The Fiends. 

_Jaranda_ (Planes of Chaos, the Book of Chaos, page 24) The marilith ruler of the fortress of Gallowsgate on the Plain of Infinite Portals, she is friendly to the Doomguard.

_Red Shroud_ (Planes of Chaos, the Book of Chaos, page 25 - also the Manual of the Planes) The succubus ruler of the fortress-city of Broken Reach, a sorcerer. 

_Maretta_ (Planes of Chaos, The Book of Chaos, page 28) The succubus Lady of the Counting-House in Graz'zt's realm.

_Rotting Jack_ (Ibid, page 29) A babau, formally a servant of Orcus, then a servant of Kiaransalee. Present status unknown.

_The Amber Stallion_ (Ibid, page 32) An armanite, ruler of the largest and successful herd in the layer of Gallenshu. 

_Vis Nirrin Vis_ (Ibid) The greatest warleader of the varrangoin.

_Keekaku_ (Ibid, page 33) The nabassu Nursemother, a powerful, enormous, bloated demon dwelling in Pazuzu's realm of Torremor. 

_Eltab_ (Champions of Ruin, page 130) Lord of the Hidden Layer.

_Ahrimanes_: Note that she is called the "Demon Lady Ahrimanes" in Gary Holian's articles for Dragon Magazine, including the Death Knights one.

The Kerzit is not a demon lord, only a powerful unique demon.



> Orcus and Demogorgon also appeared in the basic D&D rules (I forget exactly where)



They're in the Immortal's boxed set as Immortals of Entropy. Demogorgon, there, is technically Orcus' superior, and is female. 

Here are all the official or semi-official Abyssal layers I could pick out of my huge list of non-official layers. If not otherwise noted, they come from _Planes of Chaos_.

LAYER 1: PLAIN OF INFINITE PORTALS
LAYER 2: DRILLER'S HIVES
LAYER 3: FORGOTTEN LAND
LAYER 4: GRAND ABYSS
LAYER 5: WORMBLOOD
LAYER 6: REALM OF A MILLION EYES (THE GREAT MOTHER'S REALM)
LAYER 7: PHANTOM PLANE (KEARACKININ; SESS'INEK'S REALM)
LAYER 8: "SKIN-SHEDDER" (I)
LAYER 9: BURNINGWATER (I)
LAYER 10: "THAT HELLHOLE" (I)
LAYER 11: MOLRAT (I)
LAYER 12: TWELVETREES
LAYER 13: BLOOD TOR (Beshaba and Umberlee's realms; F&A)
LAYER 23: IRON WASTES (Kostchtchie's realm)
LAYER 27: MALIGNEBULA (Lissa'aere the Noxious' realm; Hellbound)
LAYERS 45, 46 AND 47: AZZAGRAT (TRIPLE REALM) (Graz'zt's realm; For Duty and Deity)
LAYER 57: TORTUROUS TRUTH (Duke Alvarez's realm; FoE)
LAYER 65: LOLTH'S WEB (Lolth's realm, formerally Zanassu's realm; implied in Demihuman Deities)
LAYER 66: THE DEMONWEB PITS (Lolth's, Selvetarm's, and Keptolo's realm)
LAYER 67: HEAVING HILLS (Hezrou realm)
LAYER 68: UNNAMED (Void) (I)
LAYER 69: THE CRUSHING PLAIN (I)
LAYER 70: THE ICE FLOE (I)
LAYER 71: SPIRAC
LAYER 72: "DARKLIGHT" (I)
LAYER 73: THE WELLS OF DARKNESS (I)
LAYER 74: SMARAGD (Merrshaulk and Ramenos' realms)
Re: The Viper Pit (Sseth's realm; P&P)
Si: The Silent Temple (Planar Handbook)
LAYER 88: THE GAPING MAW (BRINE FLATS) (Demogorgon's realm)
LAYER 111: THE MIND OF EVIL (Realm of Sch’theraqpasstt; Dragon #151)
LAYER 113: THANATOS (THE BELLY OF DEATH)
LAYER 128: THE SLUGBED (Lupercio's realm; FoE)
LAYER 142: LIFEBANE (Chemosh's Realm, OHG)
LAYER 148: TORRENT (Planar Handbook Web Enhancement)
LAYER 176: HOLLOW'S HEART (Fraz-Urbluu's new realm; FoE)
LAYER 181: ROTTING PLAIN (Laogzed's realm)
LAYER 193: VULGAREA (Eshebala's realm; OHG)
LAYER 222: SHEDAKLAH (THE SLIME PITS) (I) (Jubilex's and Zuggtmoy's realms)
LAYER 223: RARANDRETH (OFFALMOUND) (Moander's realm; now Lolth's realm; F&A; OHG; DD)
LAYER 241: PALPITATIA (Grankhul's and Skiggaret's realms; OHG)
LAYER 245: OCEAN OF SCREAMS (Planar Handbook)
LAYER 248: THE HIDDEN LAYER (Eltab's domain; Champions of Ruin)
LAYER 274: DURAO (gateway layer)
LAYER 297: THE SIGHING CLIFFS (Lynkhab's realm; FoE)
LAYER 300: FENG-TU (Tou Mu and Lu Yueh's realm; 1e Manual of the Planes)
LAYER 303: SULFANORUM
LAYER 313: UNNAMED
Si: Illssender's Tower (Hellbound)
LAYER 333: THE BROKEN SCALE (Hiddukel's realm; OHG)
LAYER 334: UNNAMED (Eldanoth's realm; Faces of Evil)
LAYER 340: UNNAMED (A cold, desolate, voidlike place; Faction War)
LAYER 377: PLAINS OF GALLENSHU (armanite realm)
LAYER 399: WORM REALM (Urdlen's realm)
LAYER 400: WOEFUL ESCARAND (nalfeshnee realm)
LAYER 403: THE RAINLESS WASTE
IT: Mal Arundak, the City of Confusion (Fallen archon realm; FoE)
LAYER 421: SALTED WOUND (Realm of Doresain, the King of the Ghouls, vassal of Yeenoghu; Libris Mortis, name from the Mimir)
LAYER 422: THE SEEPING WOODS (Yeenoghu's realm)
LAYER 487: LAIR OF THE BEAST AND MANSION OF THE RAKE (Kanchelsis' realm; OHG)
LAYER 489: NOISOME VALE (Tarnhem's realm; deserted; Dungeon Builder's Guidebook)
LAYER 493: SLEEPLESS (Siragle's realm; Dungeon #28)
LAYER 499: CARRORISTO (Hellbound)
LAYER 503: TORREMOR (LAYER OF FLIES) (Pazrael's realm)
LAYER 507: OCCIPITUS (Shackled City)
LAYER 524: SHATTERSTONE (Vaprak's realm, OHG)
LAYER 531: VUDRA (Marilith realm, Dungeon #60)
LAYER 561: SHADDONON (Layer of Rhyxali, Princess of Shadow; Book of Vile Darkness web enhancement)
LAYER 566: SOULFREEZE (The Inner Planes Sourcebook)
LAYER 586: PRISON OF THE MAD GOD (Diinkarazan's realm)
LAYER 600: ENDLESS MAZE (Baphomet's and Pale Night's realm, OHG, FoE)
LAYER 601: CONFLAGRATUM (Alzrius' realm, Hellbound)
LAYER 643: CAVERNS OF THE SKULL (I) (Kali's realm)
LAYER 657: THE STEAMING FEN (Rod of Seven Parts)
LAYER 666: OPEN MAW (The Blood Wars trilogy; name by William Northern)
LAYER 672: RIFT OF CORROSION (3e DMG; Monte Cook)

There are other, unnumbered layers in _Throne of Bloodstone_ and the 1st and 3rd-edition Manuals of the Planes.

A popular misconception is that the layers of the Abyss are actually stacked on top of one another like a deck of cards. They aren't, as the poster map and descriptions of Abyssal layers in _Planes of Chaos_ made clear. The numbers represent only the order in which the layers were catalogued by the Fraternity of Order. The plane itself has no pattern to it, and while certain layers may branch off other layers, there is no objective way to say that one layer is the second and one is the third, as in the hierarchial structure of the Nine Hells. Most branch off from the first layer, the Plain of Infinite Portals, which sits in the center of all the other layers like a swollen spider in the middle of a complex and drug-addled web.

Most or all Abyssal layers are individually infinite in expanse (see, for example, the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, page 101)


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> _Thralhavoc_ (Hellbound: War Games, page 56) Former ruler of the 348th layer of the Abyss, abandoned it deliberately to focus on his more important layers.




ah!  i was wondering what the deal was with that guy, thanks!


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## Alzrius (Oct 17, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> Here are all the official or semi-official Abyssal layers I could pick out of my huge list of non-official layers.




Don't forget layer 507, Occipitus, from _The Shackled City_.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 17, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Don't forget layer 507, Occipitus, from _The Shackled City_.




Added - thanks.


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## grodog (Oct 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_abyss_planes.html




Just to clarify, BOZ, most of my abyssal stuff is either original (and therefore shouldn't be appropriated by the authors without asking me first), or derived from Gygax's Gord novels (and therefore shouldn't be appropriated by the authors without asking Gygax first).

There's also a lot of useful, demonic material at http://www.canonfire.com/

In addition to Pants' work, I'm also very fond of Sepulchrave's demonic material from his SH, presented in his Rogues Gallery thread:  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5652.  Destan also has some worthwhile demonic writing in his RG thread:  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63429.

My ownership disclaimers apply equally to those others sources, as well!


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## LostSoul (Oct 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Dagon




It might not be part of D&D, but Dagon is statted up in the CoC d20 book.


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Orcus and Demogorgon also appeared in the basic D&D rules (I forget exactly where), so there is always the potential for a Mystara connection.




Among other places, they first appeared in the Immortal Set DM's Guide. They also both appeared in the revamp of the Immortals' set, Wrath of the Immortals (DM's Guide).

Also, Dragon #185 has the Gator men worshipping Gorn (Demogorgon).


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 17, 2005)

Dragon #122: "Out of Africa." Included the chemosit, "an aggressive, fearless, speech-using, carnivorous minor demon" and the ngojama, "an agressive, speech-using, climbing, fearless, man-eating minor demon."


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## Pants (Oct 17, 2005)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> It might not be part of D&D, but Dagon is statted up in the CoC d20 book.



Dagon was mentioned as being a Demonic Prince (of some sort) in the 1e MotP. There was also a Devil named Dagon as well.

Interestingly, back in 1e, Demogorgon was said to have ruled over layers filled with abyssal jungles inhabited with dinosaurs, wild apes, and bird-like monsters. A far cry from Abysm, his new water-filled layer. I'm not sure if this was retconned anytime down the line, but it's interesting nonetheless.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 17, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> Interestingly, back in 1e, Demogorgon was said to have ruled over layers filled with abyssal jungles inhabited with dinosaurs, wild apes, and bird-like monsters. A far cry from Abysm, his new water-filled layer. I'm not sure if this was retconned anytime down the line, but it's interesting nonetheless.




1e also said Demogorgon ruled more than one layer, so perhaps the simplest explanation (and the one used by Chris Nichols on the Mimir) is that one of his layers is jungle-filled, and another one is the watery layer of Gaping Maw (Abysm, as noted in both the Manual of the Planes and the Book of Vile Darkness, is the name of his palace, not his layer).

Or, simpler still, part of Gaping Maw is jungle-covered and part of it is watery. But perhaps that's too simple - if he has more than one layer, they might as well have themes.


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## Pants (Oct 17, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> Or, simpler still, part of Gaping Maw is jungle-covered and part of it is watery. But perhaps that's too simple - if he has more than one layer, they might as well have themes.



Most of the Abyssal layers seem to have 'themes' to them.

I don't remember any other sources aside from the 1e MotP saying that he ruled over more than one layer, though it's certainly possible. Demogorgon is the self-styled Prince of Demons. If Graz'zt can have more than one, he certainly could.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 17, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> I don't remember any other sources aside from the 1e MotP saying that he ruled over more than one layer




The 1e MotP and _Throne of Bloodstone_ were the two sources for this notion - which seems like enough.


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## grodog (Oct 17, 2005)

Dagon and Nergal were both mentioned in Gygax's and/or Ed Greenwood's Dragon articles on the hells (75, 76, 91), in that both shared named with demon as a form of punishment to them and annoyance for the (more powerful?) demons.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

A few more demonic references reposted from the other thread...

Dungeon #25 featured an Ancient Vrock (aka The Beast, Jaazzpaa), hinting that vrocks are older than most of the other tanar'ri, IIRC.

Dungeon #84 features Lolth's daughter, Laveth.

H4: Throne of Bloodstone features the dire whiner demon.

X2: Castle Amber features death demons (ostegos).

Dragon #277 features a type of demon known as the dread, and their lord, Yrsillar, Lord of Nothing.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

In case you are including encounter tables, here's a listing of monsters known to be found in the Abyss (3.X only).  This isn't a complete list, but might be helpful.

*Abyss*
Abrian (FF)
Abyssal Drake (Draconomicon) 
Abyssal Ghoul (FF)
Aspect of Demogorgon (MH) 
Aspect of Lolth (MH) 
Aspect of Orcus (MH) 
Basilisk, Abyssal Greater
Bloodthorn (FF)
Bodak
Canomorph, Vultivor (FF)
Demons (all)
Demonically Fused Elemental (template) (DRA #285)
Dread, Lesser and Yrsillar (DRA #277)
Fiendwurm (MM2)
Golem, Demonflesh (FF)
Infernal (ELH)
Ironmaw (FF)
Living Holocaust (FF)
Orlythys (DRA 285)
Shoosuva (Dun 112)
Swarm, Abyssal Ant (FF)
Swarm, Bloodfiend Locust (FF)
Symbiont, Fiendish, Fiendish Familiar (FF)
Symbiont, Fiendish, Gutworm (FF)
Varrangoin, Arcanist (FF)
Varrangoin, Lesser (FF)
Varrangoin, Rager (FF)
Vorr (FF)

*Abyss, Demonweb Pits*
As Abyss, plus the following:

Arachnoid Creature template (CotSQ)
Aracholoth (DRA #298)
Aspect of Lolth (MH) 
Brood Mother (DRA #298)
Chitine (MOF)
Choldrith (MOF)
Drider 
Drider Template (WotC)
Drider Vampire (CotSQ)
Drow 
Demon, Yochlol (MOF)
Dragon, Deep (MOF)
Golem, Spiderstone (CotSQ)
Half-Draegloth (SKR)
Half-Fiend, Draegloth (MOF)
Half-Yochlol (SKR)
Jade Spider(CotSQ)
Myrlochar (MOF)
Spider, Hairy (MOF)
Spider, Sword (MOF)
Spiderleg Horror (DRA #298)
Zin-Carla (F&P)


----------



## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 17, 2005)

* - Abyss*

_Plain of Infinite Portals_
Abyssal Ghoul (FF)
Bene Ishim (Avatar's Handbook)
Bloodthorn (FF)
Bodak (MM)
Canomorph, Vulvitor (FF)
Carrion Crow (UWH)
Darba (AotA)
Darkweaver (FF)
Demon, Air (Dragon #306)
Demon, Ash (Dragon #306)
Demon, Earth (Dragon #306)
Demon, Fire (Dragon #306)
Demon, Bebilith (MM)
Demon, Malrauthin (Beastiary of Krynn)
Demon, Quasit (MM)
Demon, Retriever (MM)
Demon, Shadow (BoVD)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Alastor (AotA)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Armanite (MotP)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Arrow Demon (MMIII)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Balor (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Cerebrilith (Psi)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Dretch (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Goristro (MotP)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Goristro (MotP)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Hezrou (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Javoc (MMII)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Klurichir (FF)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Mane (BoVD)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Marilith (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Nabassu (Dungeon #112)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Nalfeshnee (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Palrethee (MMII)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Rutterkin (BoVD)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Soulkeeper (AotA)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Succubus (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Uridezu (MotP)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Vrock (MM)
Demonic Machine (Menace Manual)
Fiend, Fleshraker (Menace Manual)
Fiend, Jumping Jack (Menace Manual)
Fiend, Skinhusker (d20 Modern Core)
Fiendwurm (MMII)
Golem, Demonflesh (FF)
Golem, Razorwire (AotA)
Gremlin (Urban Arcana)
Ironmaw (FF)
Jermlaine (MMII)
Jynx (Menace Manual)
Justicator (MMIII)
Khaasta (FF)
Laraken (Shining South)
Mephit, all (MM)
Mivilorn (MMIII)
Plague Spewer (MMIII)
Planetouched, Fetch (AGttPt)
Planetouched, Nergaz (AGttPt)
Planetouched, Tiefling (MM)
Planetouched, Wispling (FF)
Slaad (MM)
Swarm, Abyssal Ant (FF)
Swarm, Locust, Bloodfiend (FF)
Stygian Interloper (AotA)
Varrangoin (FF)
Vorr (FF)
Wretch, Carrion (Beastiary of Krynn)
Wretch, Cedar (Beastiary of Krynn)
Wretch, Sand (Beastiary of Krynn)
Yugoloth, Arcanaloth (MMII)
Yugoloth, Echinoloth (Stormwrack)
Yugoloth, Marraenoloth (MMII)

_Sulfanorum_
Anarchic Smoke Paraelemental (MotP)
Belker (MM)
Demon, Ash (Dragon #306)
Demon, Fire (Dragon #306)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Balor (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Palrethee (MMII)
Demonically Fused Fire Elemental (Dragon #285)
Demonically Fused Smoke Paraelemental (Dragon #285/MotP)
Fire Grue (Dragon #285)
Halfling (MM)
Mephit, Air (MM)
Mephit, Fire (MM)
Mephit, Magma (MM)
Mephit, Steam (MM)
Planetouched, Wispling (FF)
Rast (MM)
_
Azzagrat_
Bene Ishim (Avatar's Handbook)
Blackstone Gigant (FF)
Bloodthorn (FF)
Bodak (MM)
Caryatid Column (FF)
Darba (AotA)
Dark One (FF)
Darkweaver (FF)
Demon, Mandragoras (AotA)
Demon, Quasit (MM)
Demon, Shadow (BoVD)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Alrune (AotA)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Armanite (MotP)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Bar-lgura (BoVD)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Glabrezu (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Goristro (MotP)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Incubus (AotA)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Jahi (AotA)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Jarilith (MMII)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Jovoc (MMII)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Kelvezu (MMII)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Marilith (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Nabassu (Dungeon #112)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Succubus (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Uridezu (MotP)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Vrock (MM)
Displacer Beast (MM)
Elf, Drow (MM)
Ephemera, Dusk Beast (MotP)
Ephemera, Ecalypse (MotP)
Ephemera, Umbral Bayan (MotP)
Half-fiend (MM)
Jermlaine (MMII)
Lamia (MM)
Mercane (MotP, ELH)
Merchant Caravan (DMG, etc.)
Mivilorn (MMIII)
Nightmare (MM)
Nightmare, Lesser (Planar Handbook)
Planetouched, Tiefling (MM)
Shadow (MM)
Slow Shadow (Dungeon #112)
Spineseeker (AotA)
Swarm, Abyss Ant (FF)
Vampire (MM)
Vorr (FF)
Yugoloth, Arcanaloth (MMII)

_Demonweb Pits_
Aracholoth (Dragon #298)
Aranea (MM)
Bebilith (MM)
Brood Mother (Dragon #298)
Chelicera (MMIII)
Choldrith (MoF)
Chwidencha (FF, Dragon #298)
Dokufu (Oriental Adventures)
Drider (MM)
Elf, Drow (MM)
Ettercap (MM)
Fiend, Kwevencha (Menace Manual)
Harpoon Spider (MMIII)
Monstrous Spider (MM)
Huge Abyssal Spider Ghost (Dungeon #84)
Large Abyssal Monstrous Spider (Dungeon #84)
Gargantuan Abyssal Armored Monstrous Spider (Dungeon #84)
Nether Hound (Dragon #322)
Quth-Maren (FF)
Retriever (MM)
Yochlol (MoF, Dungeon #84)
Zin-Carla (F&P)

_The Endless Maze_
Demon, Bebelith (MM)
Demon, Colchin (Dungeon #112)
Demon, Ghour (Monsters of Faerun)
Demon, Ghour, Advanced (ELH)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Dretch (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Glabrezu (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Goristro (MotP)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Armanite (MotP)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Mane (BoVD)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Nalfeshnee (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Schir (AotA)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Solesik (AotA)
Fiendish Bariaur (MM/MotP)
Fiendish Goatfolk (MM/MMIII)
Fiendish Satyr (MotP/MM)
Half-Fiend (MM)
Mimic (MM)
Minotaur (MM)
Minotaur of Legend (MMII)
Ogre (MM)
Ogre Mage (MM)
Paigoel (AotA)
Rogue Eidolon (MMII)

_Gaping Maw_
Awakened Dire Ape (Dungeon #120)
Death Knight (MMII)
Demon, Retriever (MM)
Demon, Skulvyn (FF)
Demon, Wastrilith (FF)
Demon, Water (Dragon #306)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Bar-lgura (BoVD)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Hezrou (MM)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Myrmyxicus (FF)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Vrock (FF)
Demon, Water (Dragon #306)
Demonically Fused Water Elemental (Dragon #285/MM)
Fiendish Ape (Dungeon #120)
Girallon (MM)
Ixitxachitl (MMII)
Khaasta (FF)
Kopru (MMII)
Lizard King (Serpent Kingdoms)
Lizardfolk (MM)
Mephit, Water (MM)
Morkoth (MMII)
Orlythys (Dragon #285)
Planar Dragon, Styx (Draconomnicon)
Stygian Interloper (AotA)
Troglodyte (MM)
Water Grue (Dragon #285)
Yugoloth, Echinoloth (Stormwrack)
Yugoloth, Marraenoloth (MMII)

_Iron Wastes_
Anarchic Ice Paraelemental (MotP)
Demon, Catoboligne (Dragon #295)
Demon, Ice (Dragon #306)
Demonically Fused Ice Paraelemental (Dragon #285/MotP)
Domovoi (Dragon #290)
Dragon, White (MM)
Dwarf, Frost  (Planar Handbook)
Frost Worm (MM)
Giant, Frost (MM)
Giant, Hill (MM)
Hag, Annis (MM)
Hag, Green (MM)
Half-Fiend (MM)
Hydra, Cryrohydra (MM)
Immoth (MMII)
Leshii (Dragon #290)
Malohin the Strangler (AotA)
Mephit, Ice (MM)
Night Hag (MM)
Ogre (MM)
Ogre Mage (MM)
Rusalka (Dragon #290)
Troll, Cave (MMIII)
Troll, Mountain (MMIII)
Vampire (MM)
Vampire Spawn (MM)
Vila (Dragon #290)
Vodyanoi (Dragon #290)
Werewolf (MM)
Winter Wolf (MM)
Yeti (OA)

_The Seeping Woods_
Abyssal Ghoul (FF)
Bonedrinker (MMIII)
Demon, Abyssal Eviscerator (Miniatures Handbook)
Demon, Abyssal Maw (MMII)
Demon, Abyssal Ravager (MMII)
Demon, Abyssal Skulker (MMII)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Eurynomus the Corpse Eater (AotA)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Jarilith (MMII)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Maurezhi (FF)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Nabassu (Dungeon #112)
Dire Lion (MM)
Famine Spirit (MMII)
Gnoll  (MM)
Gnoll, Flind (MMIII)
Ghast (MM)
Ghoul (MM)
Half-Fiend (MM)
Hill Giant (MM)
Shoosuva (Dungeon #112)
Troll (MM)

_Shedaklah, the Slime Pits_
Aboleth (MM)
Anarchic Ooze Paraelemental (MotP)
Aquatic Ooze (FF)
Arcane Ooze (MMIII)
Awakened Ooze (Dragon #304)
Black Pudding (MM)
Bone Ooze (MMII)
Demon, Alkilith (FF)
Demonically Fused Ooze Paraelemental (Dragon #285/MotP)
Enveloper of the Innocent (AotA)
Fiendish Creature (MM)
Flesh Jelly (MMII)
Flux Slime (ELH)
Gelatinous Cube (MM)
Gibbering Mouther (MM)
Gray Ooze (MM)
Green Slime (DMG)
Grue, Earth (Dragon #285)
Mephit, Ooze (MM)
Myconid (MMII)
Ochre Jelly (MM)
Paraelemental, Ooze (MotP)
Phantom Fungus (MM)
Phasm (MM)
Rukarazyll (MMII)
Reason Stealer (MMII)
Shrieker (MM)
Skum (MM)
Sporebat (FF)
Summoning Ooze (MMIII)
Teratomorph (MMII)
Violet Fungus (MM)
Yugoloth, Echinoloth (Stormwrack)
Yugoloth, Marraenoloth (MMII)

_Thanatos_
Abyssal Ghoul (FF)
Allip (MM)
Banshee (MMII)
Bhut (FF)
Bleakborn (Libris Mortis)
Bleakborn, Evolved (Libris Mortis)
Bodak (MM)
Bone Creature (BoVD)
Bone Naga (MMII)
Bone Rat Swarm (Libris Mortis)
Boneclaw (MMIII)
Bonedrinker (MMIII)
Bonesinger (Ghostwalk)
Boneyard (Libris Mortis)
Bran in a Jar (Libris Mortis)
Caller in Darkness (Psi)
Carcass Eater (Libris Mortis)
Corpse Creature (BoVD)
Corpse Gatherer (MMII)
Crawling Head (FF)
Crimson Death (MMII)
Crypt Thing (FF)
Charnel Hound (MMIII)
Corpse Rat Swarm (Libris Mortis)
Crypt Chanter (Libris Mortis)
Death Knight (MM)
Deathbringer (MMII)
Deathlock (Libris Mortis)
Deathshrieker (MMIII)
Demilich (ELH)
Demon, Artaaglith (Ghostwalk)
Demon, Ash (Dragon #306)
Demon, Blood Fiend (FF)
Demon, Ice (Dragon #306)
Demon, Shadow (BoVD)
Demon, Zovvut (MMII)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Maurezhi (FF)
Demon, Tanar'ri, Nabassu (Dungeon #112)
Dire Maggot (Libris Mortis)
Doom Hag (Menace Manual)
Dread Ram (Ghostwalk)
Dream Vestige (Libris Mortis)
Drowned (MMIII)
Dust Wight (MMIII)
Entomber (Libris Mortis)
Effigy (MMII)
Ephemeral Swarm (MMIII)
Eye of Fear and Flame (BoVD)
Famine Spirit (MMII)
Fiend, Rotlord (d20 Modern Core)
Forsaken Shell (Libris Mortis)
Ghast (MM)
Ghosteater (Ghostwalk)
Ghoul (MM)
Ghoul, Gravetouched (Libris Mortis)
Golem, Gravedirt (Libris Mortis)
Golem, Tombstone (Libris Mortis, Monster Manual)
Gravecrawler (MMII)
Grimweird (MMIII)
Half-Vampire (Libris Mortis)
Hooded Pupil (Libris Mortis)
Huecuva (FF)
Hulking Corpse (Libris Mortis)
Hullathoin (FF)
Lavawight (ELH)
Lich (MM)
Mephit, Dust (MM)
Mephit, Ice (MM)
Mephit, Salt (MM)
Mohrg (MM)
Mummy (MM)
Murk (Libris Mortis)
Necronaut (MMIII)
Necroplasm (Ghostwalk)
Nether Hound (Dragon #322)
Nightshade (MM)
Plague Blight (Libris Mortis)
Plague Spewer (MMIII)
Planar Dragon, Styx (Draconomnicon)
Quth-Maren (FF)
Salt Mummy (MMIII)
Shadow (MM)
Skeleton (MM)
Skin Feaster (Menace Manual)
Skin Kite (Libris Mortis)
Skirr (Libris Mortis)
Skulking Cyst (Libris Mortis)
Skulldugger (AotA)
Slaymate (Libris Mortis)
Slow Shadow (Dungeon #112)
Spectral Steed (Ghostwalk)
Spawn of Kyuss (MMII)
Spectre (MM)
Spellstitched Creature (MMII)
Swarm-Shifter Mummy (Libris Mortis)
Sword Wraith (FF)
Tomb Mote (Libris Mortis)
Ulgurstasta (FF)
Undead Martyr (Ghostwalk)
Vampire (MM)
Vampire Spawn (MM)
Vasuthaunt (MMIII)
Vilewight (BoVD)
Visage (Libris Mortis)
Visage (Libris Mortis)
Visage, Evolved (Libris Mortis)
Wight (MM)
Wight, Slaughter (Libris Mortis)
Winterwight (ELH)
Wraith (MM)
Wraith, Evolved (Libris Mortis)
Yugoloth, Echinoloth (Stormwrack)
Yugoloth, Marraenoloth (MMII)
Zombie (MM)

_Torremor_
Air Demon (Dragon #306)
Anarchic Bat (MotP/Planar Handbook/MM)
Anarchic Hawk (MotP/Planar Handbook/MM)
Anzu (Dragon #329)
Arrowhawk (MM)
Chaos Roc (MMII)
Demonically Fused Air Elemental (Dragon #285/MM)
Dire Bat (MM)
Dire Hawk (MMII)
Fiendish Bat (MM)
Fiendish Raven (MM)
Fiendish Giant Eagle (MM)
Fiendish Giant Owl (MM)
Fiendish Roc (Dragon #329)
Gargoyle (MM)
Grue, Air (Dragon #285)
Half-Fiend (MM)
Harpy (MM)
Kenku (MMIII)
Locust Swarm (MM)
Locust Swarm, Bloodfiend (FF)
Locust Swarm, Rapture (FF)
Mephit, Air (MM)
Nabassu (Dungeon #112)
Quasit (MM)
Roc (MM)
Slasrath (FF)
Spirit of the Air (FF)
Swarm, Abyssal Ant (FF)
Swarm, Plague Ant (FF)
Swarm, Scarab Beetle (FF)
Swarm, Wasp (FF)
Succubus (MM)
Tiefling (MM)
Vrock (MM)
Wyvern (MM)
Yeth Hound (MM)
Yrthak (MM)

_Worm Realm_
Anarchic Earth Elemental (MotP/MM)
Avolakia (MMII)
Century Worm (FF)
Demonically Fused Earth Elemental (Dragon #285/MM)
Dire Badger (MM)
Dire Weasel (MM)
Dire Wolverine (MM)
Fiendish Creature (MM)
Gnome (MM)
Gnome, Fire (Planar Handbook)
Grue, Earth (Dragon #285)
Half-Fiend (MM)
Lich Gnome (MM)
Megapede (MMII)
Mephit, Earth (MM)
Monstrous Centipede (MM)
Ormyrr (MMII)
Nyogoth (AotA)
Petitioner, Larva (MotP)
Psurlon (MMII)
Purple Worm (MM)
Rukarazyll (MMII)
Shoggti (AotA)
Solesik (AotA)
Spawn of Kyuss (MMII)
Spineseeker (AotA)
Spriggan (MMII)
Thoqqua (MM)
Vampire Gnome (MM)
Wyste (MMII)
Zombie Gnome (MM)


----------



## Erik Mona (Oct 18, 2005)

This thread is very helpful.

I'm currently writing up Azzagrat. Does anyone know if the three layers of the Triple Realm have ever been given official names? It would make things a lot easier if they had them...

--Erik


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 18, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> This thread is very helpful.
> 
> I'm currently writing up Azzagrat. Does anyone know if the three layers of the Triple Realm have ever been given official names? It would make things a lot easier if they had them...



Didn't they give them names in "For Duty and Diety"?  I only played in that one, so I'm not sure.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> This thread is very helpful.




glad to know.  



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm currently writing up Azzagrat. Does anyone know if the three layers of the Triple Realm have ever been given official names? It would make things a lot easier if they had them...




i can't recall having seen any official names for them, but then other folks know lots of things that i don't!


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## Shemeska (Oct 18, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> This thread is very helpful.
> 
> I'm currently writing up Azzagrat. Does anyone know if the three layers of the Triple Realm have ever been given official names? It would make things a lot easier if they had them...
> 
> --Erik




No, there have never been specific names for the 3 seperate layers of Azzagrat. The trio of them also mingle and weave in their connections with one another, and some suspect that they may eventually merge into a single layer. 

Each of the layers though have distinctive features or notable realms which might make attractive targets for naming them: Zrintor the Viper Forest is on the 45th layer, and the 45th layer is also heavily suggested to have once been a chunk of the Gray Waste (or perhaps the Waste insinuating itself into the Abyss given Grazzt's activities in the Blood War); or the City of Samora on the 47th layer, etc.

Though it's probably redundant to say, the most information on Azzagrat comes from the 'Planes of Chaos' box set (specifically in the Book of Chaos, and Travelogue sections), and in the module 'For Duty and Deity'.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

there you go, that's probably the extent of what there is to say about that.  you've got carte blanche to make up names if you're so inclined!


----------



## Erik Mona (Oct 19, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Though it's probably redundant to say, the most information on Azzagrat comes from the 'Planes of Chaos' box set (specifically in the Book of Chaos, and Travelogue sections), and in the module 'For Duty and Deity'.




Yeah, I'm on top of these sources, although I need to take another glance at "For Duty and Deity." Thanks for the suggestions.

--Erik


----------



## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

page 29-49, including maps.


----------



## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 19, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Dungeon #25 featured an Ancient Vrock (aka The Beast, Jaazzpaa), hinting that vrocks are older than most of the other tanar'ri, IIRC.




I think, rather, that it only means that tanar'ric forms have evolved over time.

The adventure ("The Standing Stones of Sundown") says "Jaazzpaa is an example of a type of vrock seldom seen nowadays, even in the outer planes. The race of ancient vrocks was almost wiped out 2,000 years ago (while Jaazzpaa was imprisoned in his rock) when one of their leaders had an unfortunate disagreement with a powerful ruler of the Abyss. The ancient race of vrocks was quickly superseded by the race of common vrocks, which was less likely to step out of line.

"Ancient vrocks were slightly more powerful than their common kin and posessed two ninth-level spells each..."

2,000 years ago seems unlikely to be "older than most of the other tanar'ri." In fact, I think we can perhaps draw the opposite conclusion - that vrocks in their present form are actually younger than most other breeds due to this act of genocide by an unnamed Abyssal lord.

As a tangent, I wonder if the _stonecase_ spell described in that adventure - which imprisoned Jaazzpaa in the form of a monolith - is also the cause of the Twisted Forest in the Greyhawk campaign, which imprisoned a band of ancient wizards in the same shape?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 20, 2005)

i like that interpretation.

anyone have any more abyssal factoids?


----------



## diaglo (Oct 21, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> bump



for more ideas but not necessarily anything new to add...
The book of Ebon Bindings
by Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman Barker 

83 pages 
Publisher: Imperium Pub. Co (1978) 
Language: English 
ASIN: B00073C0EY


----------



## BOZ (Oct 21, 2005)

cool, non-gaming reference works can really be helpful.


----------



## grodog (Oct 22, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> cool, non-gaming reference works can really be helpful.




FYI, diaglo's pointing you to an Empire of the Petal Throne supplement by Phil Barker, BOZ  

Now, if you're looking for some good non-gaming books on the occult and such, Gustav Davidson's Dictionary of Angels is a must-have, along with Milton's Paradise Lost, Dante's Inferno, and the artwork of Hieronymous Bosch @ http://images.google.com/images?svn...lla:en-US:official&q=Hieronymus+Bosch&spell=1 and William Blake @ http://images.google.com/images?svn...:en-US:official&q="william+blake"&btnG=Search


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## Erik Mona (Oct 26, 2005)

As I said above, these posts are very helpful. What strikes me most of all, especially upon reviewing Grover's list of Abyssal layers, is how so many of us seem to have obsessive-compulsive lists of the same things. Personally, this sort of lore is 100% intertwined with my love of the D&D game as a whole, and is why I am unsatisfied with the modern FR and Eberron approach to the planes. I respect those approaches as unique creations, but when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons, give me the Great Wheel or give me nothing.

Ahem.

My own list lacked Salted Wound, layer 313, the Mind of Evil, and Malignebula. Here's one I've come across that you don't have on yours:

LAYER 313: UNNAMED (Abyssal eviscerators come from here; Miniatures Handbook)

Also, a couple of recent issues of Dungeon have revealed the identities of four Abyssal lords. They are:

LAZBRAL'THULL: Demon lord of torture and bloodletting. (Dungeon #122: Root of Evil).

MALGARIUS: A demonic plant that once controlled a layer of the Abyss, but which was defeated by the demon lord Lazbral'thull. (Dungeon #122: Root of Evil).

MALGOTH, THE: A "terrible entity" that ruled over several layers of the Abyss eons ago. Defeated by a consortium of seven demon lords, who led a fantastic assault on his haunted realm. The victorious demons scattered the Malgoth's essence across the Abyss, only to be deposed and ultimately destroyed by underlings on their home layers. (Dungeon #117: Touch of the Abyss).

THARZAX: Patron of poisonous things that creep and crawl. (Dungeon #123: Salvage Operation).

--Erik


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Oct 26, 2005)

This thread is great (along with the other one re: Demons). Thanks very much for compiling these things guys. It's stuff like this that makes ENWorld great!


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## Shemeska (Oct 26, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> but when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons, give me the Great Wheel or give me nothing.










Couldn't have said it better myself.

And Grover's list has gotten use by me as well, among other things he's done, even if I've used the Abyss less in comparison to the three planes of Conflict.

And now I go back to fleshing out a section of the layer of Woeful Escarand for my own campaign's fun in the Abyss.


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## Alzrius (Oct 26, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> What strikes me most of all, especially upon reviewing Grover's list of Abyssal layers, is how so many of us seem to have obsessive-compulsive lists of the same things.




As a compulsive list-maker (see my Gods List), I notice this too. It's interesting how a certain grouping of us gamers feel so inclined to codify various aspects of the game.



> _Personally, this sort of lore is 100% intertwined with my love of the D&D game as a whole, and is why I am unsatisfied with the modern FR and Eberron approach to the planes. I respect those approaches as unique creations, but when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons, give me the Great Wheel or give me nothing._




Testify!


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## Pants (Oct 26, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> What strikes me most of all, especially upon reviewing Grover's list of Abyssal layers, is how so many of us seem to have obsessive-compulsive lists of the same things.



Reverting to suggestion mode:
I think it would be great to have a list such as this appear in the book. A list of all known abyssal layers, with a brief description for most of them and more detailed descriptions for some of the more well known layers (Thanatos, Gaping Maw, the Steaming Fen, etc. etc.).


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## Shemeska (Oct 26, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> As a compulsive list-maker (see my Gods List), I notice this too. It's interesting how a certain grouping of us gamers feel so inclined to codify various aspects of the game.




For a single page on the site, you're a disturbing percentage of Planewalker's traffic you know, just because of the frightening utility of that list of yours. I've got a copy of it sitting on my desktop here, right next to a few pdfs. It's damn handy.


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## Alzrius (Oct 26, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> For a single page on the site, you're a disturbing percentage of Planewalker's traffic you know, just because of the frightening utility of that list of yours.




Those hits are all me; I'm narcissistic about my own work.   



> _I've got a copy of it sitting on my desktop here, right next to a few pdfs. It's damn handy._




Ironically, I just got done pestering Clueless about another update to be made (and after that I need to update it again for that demigod in _Heroes of Horror_.


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## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

here i go on another fishing trip: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=153838

quite a few have been named in this thread (thanks Grover/Rip!), but i know there have to be a hundred or more floating around out there in various products...


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## grodog (Oct 26, 2005)

IIRC, in one of the Greyhawk artifacts articles I co-wrote with Erik in Dragons 294/299, I identified one or more of the demon lords from the MM2 list with a specific title/sphere of influence.  I think it was Gresil, Lord of Demonic Knowledge, but don't recall offhand now, and I can't check, since my magazines are all 1800 miles away in KS.

edit:  on the "requests" side, I'd really like to see _spiritwrack_ and the conjuration circles from Dragon 56 and S4 return to the game, Erik!   Those two versions of circles differ from one another, and also differ from the info in the 1e DMG and what eventually appeared under _ensnarement_ (UA page 60); I don't recall whether or not the original version of _ensnarement_ from Dragon 68, page 27 differs from the version published in S4 or not.


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## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> As I said above, these posts are very helpful. What strikes me most of all, especially upon reviewing Grover's list of Abyssal layers, is how so many of us seem to have obsessive-compulsive lists of the same things. Personally, this sort of lore is 100% intertwined with my love of the D&D game as a whole, and is why I am unsatisfied with the modern FR and Eberron approach to the planes. I respect those approaches as unique creations, but when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons, give me the Great Wheel or give me nothing.




BTW, amen brother.    i loved FR in 2E, and for the above reason and others i barely even look at it in 3E.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> My own list lacked Salted Wound, layer 313, the Mind of Evil, and Malignebula.




you might want to check on those first, considering some of the layers on Rip's list are "semi-official" - could be that it was vaguely mentioned in one source and someone on the internet expanded on it.

as to the Mind of Evil, that was in Dragon 151 (mentioned above by me at least once).  keep an eye out for Siragle's realm "Sleepless" - it was in Dungeon #28, but i only saw a layer # and not a name for the layer.  Sleepless was the name of the module in which Siragle appeared, not that this is a bad name for the layer or anything.


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## Col_Pladoh (Oct 26, 2005)

Boz,

If you haven't seen it, have a look at _Demonographia,_ The Fountainhead of Diabolic Portraiture, from Trident Books, 1999. I have copy 375 of 1,000 printed

Cheers,
Gary


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> As I said above, these posts are very helpful. What strikes me most of all, especially upon reviewing Grover's list of Abyssal layers, is how so many of us seem to have obsessive-compulsive lists of the same things. Personally, this sort of lore is 100% intertwined with my love of the D&D game as a whole, and is why I am unsatisfied with the modern FR and Eberron approach to the planes. I respect those approaches as unique creations, but when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons, give me the Great Wheel or give me nothing.
> 
> --Erik




Ditto.   

That might make a nice editorial in a certain magazine, eh?   

I still use FR as my base setting, but my cosmology is and always will be the Great Wheel.


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## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

shade, if i ever pick FR back up again as DM, i suspect my version of the setting will be very similar to yours.    i'll use the 3E books, but much revision work will be necessary - work that i currently don't have time to do, thus i am not DMing FR.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 26, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> you might want to check on those first, considering some of the layers on Rip's list are "semi-official" - could be that it was vaguely mentioned in one source and someone on the internet expanded on it.
> 
> as to the Mind of Evil, that was in Dragon 151 (mentioned above by me at least once).  keep an eye out for Siragle's realm "Sleepless" - it was in Dungeon #28, but i only saw a layer # and not a name for the layer.  Sleepless was the name of the module in which Siragle appeared, not that this is a bad name for the layer or anything.




As I believe I noted, the name "Salted Wound" was invented by Chris Nichols on the Mimir - I included it in the list because the Ghoul King definitely rules a layer _somewhere_, and it might as well be that one (but consider the name a placeholder until something official comes along). This is much the same process as how I identified layer #65 (mentioned as Lolth's second layer in various 1st edition places) as Zanassu's former layer - we know Zanassu was killed by Selvetarm, so it makes sense that one of the layers Lolth rules now formally belonged to him.

"Sleepless" is also something of a placeholder name, named after the adventure for lack of anything more persuasive.

The name assigned to layer #666 is similarly unofficial - created, as I said, by a fan named William Northern, though the layer itself is from one of the _Blood Wars_ novels.

Layer 313 and Malignebula are from Planescape.


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## Clueless (Oct 26, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Ironically, I just got done pestering Clueless about another update to be made (and after that I need to update it again for that demigod in _Heroes of Horror_.




Speaking of updates - new update is up here.


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## Erik Mona (Oct 27, 2005)

Ok, here's a new question.

I'm a little confused by the existing continuity regarding Layer 400, the Woeful Escarand, particularly in regards to manes and the Pits of Despair. Numerous sources suggest that manes are your run of the mill chaotic evil petitioners. My question is this: Do _all_ of them appear on this layer to be judged? That seems like a lot of work for the Lords of Woe, and one wonders how so many manes manage to end the process as, well, manes. 

My initial thought (as outlined briefly in "Armies of the Abyss") is that a lot of petitioners show up on the first layer, and are harvested by demons associated with various lords, captured, and taken through portals to the domains of their new masters to be used as troops, food, etc. I'm unsure how to fit this into the existing material on the Woeful Escarand, however, and would appreciate the scholarship of the fine folks posting to this thread.

Also, it's somewhat confusing trying to tie all of this in with the larvae, which went from something exclusive to Hades (1e) to something that seems to transcend the Lower Planes. Larvae can be turned into quasits and imps, which can evolve to more powerful demons (like manes). What makes one dead CE character a manes and the other a larva?

--Erik


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 27, 2005)

According to Planescape lore, demons and devils start out as larvae and evolve into beings appropriate to their respective planes (manes and nupperibos, respectively - lemures are created from nupperibos). Thus, _all_ manes were once larvae.

Souls travel to the Outer Planes via astral conduits. Generally, these conduits lead only to the first layers of the various planes - the Plain of Infinite Portals, in the case of the Abyss. Conduits that travel to deeper layers are called _planar conduits_ - see _A Guide to the Astral Plane_ and the _Planewalker's Handbook_.

Probably, most larvae form at the ends of astral conduits in the Plain of Infinite Portals. It's possible that there are planar conduits which go on to channel a large percentage (or even, in theory, _all_) of them right away into Woeful Escarond, but it's just as reasonable to take the _Armies of the Abyss_ route and say the nalfeshnee have to manually herd them into the portal leading to their layer. IMC, babau are the primary herders of petitioners, most of them serving the nalfeshnee in this regard. They're the main kind of demon in charge of herding minor fiends in the _Planescape Monstrous Compendium_ and the _Monstrous Compendium: Outer Planes Appendix_, and I like that their Grim Reaper appearance is appropriate for this.


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## Erik Mona (Oct 27, 2005)

Hmmm. This is essentially as far as I got, and it really leaves a bit of a problem in that the 1e MM and subsequent material on manes really do suggest that they are the souls of CE dead folk, and it appears from my reading of the Woeful Escarand material (I don't have it in front of me) that it is _manes_ who are judged (in the main, heh heh) in the court of woe, and not larvae.

Am I missing something? It seems like larvae are an extra step that is sometimes, but not always, necessary.

In other words, it seems like some "souls" become manes automatically, thus skipping the larva status.

Am I missing something?

--Erik


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

i would think (without having researched it) that some souls would bypass the default larva stage and progress right on to manes (those who have "earned" it?).  

could someone post all the known sources for these transitions?


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## Alzrius (Oct 27, 2005)

According to _Faces of Evil_, any evil person who does goes to the lower plane that best matches his alignment (presuming he didn't worship a specific deity). He arrives there as a larva. However (from what FoE says), exceptionally Chaotic Evil petitioners make the jump straight to manes (and exceptionally LE ones make it to lemures), never being a larva.

Layer 400, the Mountains of Woe, is where the nalfeshnee judge (as I understood it) all the new souls that come to the Abyss (and my understanding was that they appear on that layer instantly), no matter what their form. 

Most likely, the nalfeshnee there are canny enough to understand that those who appear as manes already are probably more hardy than the ones who are just larva. That aside, they still get to choose what happens next to the new petitioners ("You rutterkin; you manes; you dretch; you dinner!").

It's worth reiterating that when higher fiends are looking to promote some larva, they prefer to use NE larva. The article "Pox of the Planes" in the _Dragon Annual_ #2 made it clear why.


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

Monster Manual (1977): "Those dead which go to the 666 layers of the demonic abyss become manes. The most evil of them are confined in the tiers of flames of Gehenna."

so, not all CE souls become manes, but the souls that go to the Abyss directly should be.

"The larvae are the most selfishly evil of all souls who sink to the lower planes after death.  They abide in the gloom of Hades, controlled by the night hags.  These creatures are desired by demons and devils alike, as they are used to form quasits (qv) or imps (qv) respectively." etc.

so, originally at least, larvae was not the default form for souls to appear as, but reserved for the most selfishly evil.


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## Alzrius (Oct 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Monster Manual (1977): "Those dead which go to the 666 layers of the demonic abyss become manes. The most evil of them are confined in the tiers of flames of Gehenna."
> 
> so, not all CE souls become manes, but the souls that go to the Abyss directly should be.
> 
> ...




The operative thing to remember is that there are books that expand, revise, and retcon this topic since the 1E MM came out.


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## Erik Mona (Oct 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so, originally at least, larvae was not the default form for souls to appear as, but reserved for the most selfishly evil.




I am considering keeping it this way, and I guess I'm looking for suggestions from the faithful as to why that might not be such a good idea. I should add that I don't have strong opinions on the matter, so my biases are clear.

--Erik


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> The operative thing to remember is that there are books that expand, revise, and retcon this topic since the 1E MM came out.




though the post that Erik made after yours does not surprise me.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 28, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Hmmm. This is essentially as far as I got, and it really leaves a bit of a problem in that the 1e MM and subsequent material on manes really do suggest that they are the souls of CE dead folk, and it appears from my reading of the Woeful Escarand material (I don't have it in front of me) that it is _manes_ who are judged (in the main, heh heh) in the court of woe, and not larvae.




_Both_ larvae and manes are the souls of the dead. Manes are just slightly more evolved than larvae are. 

And yes, it's manes that are judged, not the worms.


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I am considering keeping it this way, and I guess I'm looking for suggestions from the faithful as to why that might not be such a good idea.




The fact that it'd fly in the face of what _Planescape_ people remember is one reason. Another is that the idea of most evil creatures being larva across the planes made a sense of its own, in regards to how the "soul trade" worked (mostly in regards to night hags et al).

Basically, if all CE souls already appeared as manes, then promoting fiends wouldn't ever need larva from The Gray Waste; why waste their gold to buy larva from there, import it home, and then expend effort to make it into a manes, when there are perfectly good manes right in the Abyss? This then undercuts the entire idea that there need to be "larva herders" (night hags) who then sell the larva to be shaped into higher-powered fiends.

As the "Pox of the Planes" article stated, having larva appear in all the lower planes (as an aside, larva on each plane has that plane's alignment. E.g. larva in the Abyss is CE) creates a need for NE larva. That may sound strange, but the idea here is that CE larva don't hold their forms well - a lot of them are chaotic enough that they devolve back into being larva once promoted (and likewise, LE larva tend to be harder to change, having their own ethos of law). But NE larva accept the imposition of CE or LE better, having no ingrained concepts of the alignments that need changing.

All of that, in turn, makes things more interesting among the Abyssal petitioners. You can then determine who is more likely to become a better demon (they appear as manes); you can have nalfeshnees who, for some reason, decide to send a demon lord they hate the souls of those who're weak (CE larva they promoted to manes, knowing they'll be less useful), etc.

The PS system makes it work for the Lower Planes as a whole, unlike the 1E system.


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> And yes, it's manes that are judged, not the worms.




That was true in 1E, but _Planescape_ made some changes (for the better, IMHO).


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Monster Manual (1977): "Those dead which go to the 666 layers of the demonic abyss become manes. The most evil of them are confined in the tiers of flames of Gehenna."
> 
> so, not all CE souls become manes, but the souls that go to the Abyss directly should be.




I read that as saying that _all_ dead who go to the Abyss become manes, but the most evil of manes are confined to Gehenna.

Note that "Gehenna" became "the Pits of Flame beneath the Mountain of Woe" in the layer of Woeful Escarond in 2e. Otherwise, that statement didn't change in Planescape (and manes in Gehenna don't make much sense anyway).


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

as far as i know, it's never been said that all CE souls become manes... just those that go to the Abyss (as above).  there is also Pandemonium and Carceri to consider.  of course, not many souls go to either of those planes i'd imagine.  and since it looks like there is precedent for some souls going directly to manes, i would not throw that out entirely.  if i'd have to guess (thowing wild guesses out there), maybe 80% of chaotic souls become larva and 20% manes.  maybe "auto-manes" would be an even smaller percentage than that.


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> Note that "Gehenna" became "the Pits of Flame beneath the Mountain of Woe" in the layer of Woeful Escarond in 2e. Otherwise, that statement didn't change in Planescape (and manes in Gehenna don't make much sense anyway).




agreed, totally.    the relationships between the planes don't seem to have been fully mapped out until mid-later 1E.


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## Shemeska (Oct 28, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I am considering keeping it this way, and I guess I'm looking for suggestions from the faithful as to why that might not be such a good idea. I should add that I don't have strong opinions on the matter, so my biases are clear.
> 
> --Erik




Grover and Alzrius are both largely correct. The vast majority of CE petitioners dumped into the Abyss start out as CE larvae, though the most solidly CE of them may immediately leap into manes given enough time. This is somewhat vague in the sources. CE larvae as default Abyssal petitioners before the Tanar'ri get to them are well established.

These CE larvae are then taken before the Nalfeshnee (those that aren't eaten or killed) and warped into Tanar'ri proper: Manes, Dretches, or Rutterkin. Or in the words of one particular source they are judged and turned into :food, slaves, and food for slaves. Some petitioners that start out as manes, and this is likely to be VERY VERY rare, may skip this process entirely, or just get a pass from the Judges.


Keep in mind that the Nalfeshnee of Woeful Escarand probably have a job split into two parts:

1) Judging and promoting new CE petitioners to the Abyss. As already mentioned, most are larvae, a fraction may be manes already before this point.

2) Judging and remaking larvae harvested outside of the Abyss. The majority of these will come from the Gray Waste simple because the Night Hags of that plane sell them openly, and the Yugoloths don't care because they don't have a link to petitioners anyway, and those larvae are very very easy to imprint with a new purpose and ethos because the Waste has already done its best to scour them clean of any vestige of motivation and self worth (the ones that survive that process become Hordelings, but that's another topic entirely). Larvae from Gehenna will be too lawful for the needs of the Abyss, and larvae from Carceri fall into the same place as Abyssal larvae mostly, they are imprinted with Chaos already and they're difficult to control and manipulate into manes/dretches/rutterkin simply by virtue of their chaotic nature already.


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

3E MotP, page 100:
"Those souls from the Material Plane that are not simply absorbed into the structure of the Abyss become petitioners called manes."

become?  it doesn't say immediately though... perhaps some come in as larva and quickly become manes...?

i still say that some would go auto-manes though.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 28, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> That may sound strange, but the idea here is that CE larva don't hold their forms well - a lot of them are chaotic enough that they devolve back into being larva once promoted (and likewise, LE larva tend to be harder to change, having their own ethos of law). But NE larva accept the imposition of CE or LE better, having no ingrained concepts of the alignments that need changing.




That article (in Dragon Annual #2, by Ed Bonny) was generally pretty good, but I thought that particular argument was clumsy. I actually hate the idea of quasits and imps being made from neutral evil larvae - better by far to make quasits from chaotic evil larvae and imps from lawful evil larvae. To say that neutral evil spirits make better imps and quasits is to diminish the importance of law and chaos in the cosmology and to distort the very shape of the Great Ring into something other than circular.

Why shouldn't imps be made from lawful evil spirits and quasits from the evil and chaotic? It's much more appropriate. Anything else is just an awkward rationalization.

That's actually the best argument for demons and devils starting out as larvae, and probably the reason Colin McComb went that route in _Faces of Evil_ - if imps and quasits are made from larvae, they ought to be made from larvae coming from the planes they're associated with instead of being foreigners, manifestations of an entirely different alignment.

This does diminish the role of night hags somewhat, but I don't see that as a bad thing. They don't need to have a monopoly on the production of imps and quasits to be important in their own way. They supply better quality larvae than most other beings, since they produce them by stealing the souls of high-level characters. Their dominion over bad dreams is also an underlooked attribute of theirs - they should buy and trade things taken from the Dreaming lands.


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> That article (in Dragon Annual #2, by Ed Bonny) was generally pretty good, but I thought that particular argument was clumsy. I actually hate the idea of quasits and imps being made from neutral evil larvae - better by far to make quasits from chaotic evil larvae and imps from lawful evil larvae. To say that neutral evil spirits make better imps and quasits is to diminish the importance of law and chaos in the cosmology and to distort the very shape of the Great Ring into something other than circular.
> 
> Why shouldn't imps be made from lawful evil spirits and quasits from the evil and chaotic? It's much more appropriate. Anything else is just an awkward rationalization.
> 
> That's actually the best argument for demons and devils starting out as larvae, and probably the reason Colin McComb went that route in _Faces of Evil_ - if imps and quasits are made from larvae, they ought to be made from larvae coming from the planes they're associated with instead of being foreigners, manifestations of an entirely different alignment.




i'm going to agree with you again completely, there.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> as far as i know, it's never been said that all CE souls become manes... just those that go to the Abyss (as above).  there is also Pandemonium and Carceri to consider.  of course, not many souls go to either of those planes i'd imagine.  and since it looks like there is precedent for some souls going directly to manes, i would not throw that out entirely.  if i'd have to guess (thowing wild guesses out there), maybe 80% of chaotic souls become larva and 20% manes.  maybe "auto-manes" would be an even smaller percentage than that.




I'd assume that a more or less equal number of petitioners travel to Pandemonium, the Abyss, and Carceri, although cultists of the various demon lords probably increase the flow to the Abyss somewhat. I don't think there's any reason to think there are more Chaotic Evil beings in the multiverse than Chaotic Evil (Chaotic Neutral) or Chaotic Evil (Neutral Evil) beings, though.

Petitioners in Pandemonium and Carceri seem to mostly resemble the way they looked in life, rather than becoming manes or larvae.


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## Shemeska (Oct 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> as far as i know, it's never been said that all CE souls become manes... just those that go to the Abyss (as above).  there is also Pandemonium and Carceri to consider.  of course, not many souls go to either of those planes i'd imagine.  and since it looks like there is precedent for some souls going directly to manes, i would not throw that out entirely.  if i'd have to guess (thowing wild guesses out there), maybe 80% of chaotic souls become larva and 20% manes.  maybe "auto-manes" would be an even smaller percentage than that.




Petitioners in Carceri are CE and they tend to resemble their forms in life oftentimes, with a fraction of them instead becoming larvae. These larvae are likely collected by Tanar'ri to bring back to the Abyss, or if we're talking about the layer of Othrys on Carceri, the plane's contingent of Yugoloths are using them to build the Tower of Incarnate Pain.

Petitioners in Pandemonium seem to resemble the form they had in life, and I'm not aware of any larvae in that plane ever being mentioned. Larvae seem tied down to the Abyss, down through the 3 planes of conflict, and back up to Baator. Acheron and Pandemonium are both too lawful and too chaotic, respectively to generate larvae.

And now I'm making these numbers up, but they seem reasonable given the source material:

CE souls in the Abyss: 90% CE larvae, 10% CE manes

NE/CE souls in Carceri: 70% appear as in life, 30% larvae

NE souls in the Waste: NE larvae who either get used in terrible ways by the Yugoloths, sold by Hags to the Tanar'ri and Baatezu, or who transform into Hordelings (and possibly Hags? The link is suggested but not firm). Larvae absorbed by the plane itself will eventually become mulched up and their spiritual essence pooled into the plane itself where it gets recycled into Mezzoloths.


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> NE souls in the Waste: NE larvae who either get used in terrible ways by the Yugoloths, sold by Hags to the Tanar'ri and Baatezu, or who transform into Hordelings




Don't forget that as of _Dungeon_ #124, hordelings are CE critters who come from the Abyss and Pandemonium now.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 28, 2005)

If I remember correctly, there's a creature called an Abyssal Larva in the _Creature Collection II_. They look really different from the wormlike larvae of the Gray Waste - like infants or fetuses with crablike legs. 

What I'm getting at is that "larvae" may have different appearances on different planes. 

I've always seen things this way: that in the Abyss larvae can evolve on their own into manes relatively quickly, and they're still petitioners, not true tanar'ri, when they do so. In the Nine Hells they evolve into nupperibos on their own - and these nupperibos are still petitioners as well. In the Gray Waste, larvae evolve into hordlings. Baatezu can only be created by other baatezu, however - lemures aren't "natural" in the way that manes and nupperibos are.

I don't think the nalfeshnee are an essential step in tanar'ric evolution. Those who rule the Mountain of Woe have taken it as their role to speed up the process in order to supply the balors with vast hordes of troops. If they didn't do this, the tanar'ric armies would take longer to muster, but the tanar'ri race would still exist in all its forms (though some forms that are now common thanks to nalfeshnee interference would be rarer, largely confined to the layers in which they originally evolved).


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## Shemeska (Oct 28, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Don't forget that as of _Dungeon_ #124, hordelings are CE critters who come from the Abyss and Pandemonium now.




Which doesn't make sense. I honestly think that there may have been confusion there of the Hordelings with the 'random demon' table in the 1e DMG. When I talk about Hordelings I'm referring to them as in their chapter in _Faces of Evil_, and other sources, rather than what seems to have been an honest mistake in Dungeon 124.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 28, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Petitioners in Pandemonium seem to resemble the form they had in life, and I'm not aware of any larvae in that plane ever being mentioned. Larvae seem tied down to the Abyss, down through the 3 planes of conflict, and back up to Baator. Acheron and Pandemonium are both too lawful and too chaotic, respectively to generate larvae.




Specifically, this seems to be related to the origin myth of the fiends. The ancient yugoloths cleansed their race of "impurities," and these "impurities" became larvae. Those tainted by Chaos were driven into the Abyss and those tainted by Law were driven into Baator, while those with neither lawful nor chaotic taint remained in the Waste.

This is why those three planes have larvae indigenous to them, and no others (although Carceri may have already existed at the time). It seems that mortal souls, when they formed later on, took on the forms already common to the planes on which they arrived.

It's a bit of a just-so story, but that seems to be the explanation.


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## James Jacobs (Oct 28, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Don't forget that as of _Dungeon_ #124, hordelings are CE critters who come from the Abyss and Pandemonium now.




There's still hordlings on Hades and Carceri.


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> What I'm getting at is that "larvae" may have different appearances on different planes.




I disagree. Petitioners take all different forms, yes, but larva look like larva; five-foot long worms with heads that resemble who they were in life.



> _I've always seen things this way: that in the Abyss larvae can evolve on their own into manes relatively quickly, and they're still petitioners, not true tanar'ri, when they do so._




Add in that some appear already being manes, and I suppose I agree with that, for the most part.



> _In the Nine Hells they evolve into nupperibos on their own - and these nupperibos are still petitioners as well._




I can't remember if LE larva had to become lemures first to then become nupperibos...I think that was how it worked. It was just that nupperibos were a "dead end" that could only transform back down to lemures (similar to rutterkin for tanar'ri). It was only later we found out that nupperibos were the first step towards become ancient baatorians; and baatezu forcibly pushed them back down to being lemures.



> _In the Gray Waste, larvae evolve into hordlings._




See above.



> _Baatezu can only be created by other baatezu, however - lemures aren't "natural" in the way that manes and nupperibos are._




Nothing said this, as I recall. I don't think every single lemure had to be forcefully transformed into their lemure state from existing larva or nupperibos.



> _I don't think the nalfeshnee are an essential step in tanar'ric evolution. Those who rule the Mountain of Woe have taken it as their role to speed up the process in order to supply the balors with vast hordes of troops. If they didn't do this, the tanar'ric armies would take longer to muster, but the tanar'ri race would still exist in all its forms (though some forms that are now common thanks to nalfeshnee interference would be rarer, largely confined to the layers in which they originally evolved)._



_

This seems about right._


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## Shemeska (Oct 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> 3E MotP, page 100:
> "Those souls from the Material Plane that are not simply absorbed into the structure of the Abyss become petitioners called manes."
> 
> become?  it doesn't say immediately though... perhaps some come in as larva and quickly become manes...?
> ...




*nod* The 3e MotP was a bit brief there, but it doesn't really dispute the material from Faces of Evil.  I'd say most come in as larvae, with a fraction starting out as manes. Given the Abyss though, they don't stay long as larvae before being killed/absorbed or being warped into proper Tanar'ri.


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2005)

James Jacobs said:
			
		

> There's still hordlings on Hades and Carceri.




Whoops! My bad! Their entry in _Dungeon_ does indeed say that (I was confused because Arodnap's Box, the source of the hordelings in that adventure, opened to Pandemonium specifically). Sorry!


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

Bringer of Doom?


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Bringer of Doom?




Arodnap's Box wasn't ever said to be the Bringer of Doom, but I suppose there's room to understand that it is (I think it's just similar, though).


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> That article (in Dragon Annual #2, by Ed Bonny) was generally pretty good, but I thought that particular argument was clumsy. I actually hate the idea of quasits and imps being made from neutral evil larvae - better by far to make quasits from chaotic evil larvae and imps from lawful evil larvae. To say that neutral evil spirits make better imps and quasits is to diminish the importance of law and chaos in the cosmology and to distort the very shape of the Great Ring into something other than circular.




You're reading into that article differently than I did. The point he seemed to be trying to make was that NE spirits were already evil, but as far as the Law/Chaos axis was concerned, they were a blank slate, ready to be filled with the messages of Law or Chaos that the tanar'ri wanted them to have; native larva already had their own ideas about what LE and CE were, and it wasn't worth the effort to "reeducate" them.


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## James Jacobs (Oct 28, 2005)

Originally, Arodnap's box was going to be the Bringer of Doom. But since opening the Bringer of Doom causes explosions, and we didn't want to explode Maure Castle... Arodnap's Box is a different (although related) artifact.

The Bringer of Doom brings Hades-flavored hordlings, in any event, and we needed Pandemonium-flavored ones for the adventure.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 28, 2005)

Ah, here's the quote: "Like larvae, manes are still petitioners." - _Faces of Evil_, page 42.
"Other tanar'ri do not consider the manes to be _real_ tanar'ri - they are just petitioners, spirits of mortal berks who spent their lives on chaos and evil." - Ibid, page 44.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I disagree. Petitioners take all different forms, yes, but larva look like larva; five-foot long worms with heads that resemble who they were in life.




Well, yeah, officially. I think we can stand a little more variety - that's just my opinion, though, and I'm not married to it or anything.



> Add in that some appear already being manes




I can't find any reference to that. I don't have a problem with it, but I can't find any 2e source that says it happens.



> I can't remember if LE larva had to become lemures first to then become nupperibos...




Lawful and evil larvae evolve into nupperibos. Nupperibos are used as cannon fodder, sold to the yugoloths, or promoted into lemure form. This is the baatezu method of ridding their plane of what would otherwise evolve into the species that preceded them - the so-called Elder Baatorians.

"The nupperibos are slightly higher in station than the lemures, but they can never become higher forms of baatezu without first being demoted into lemure status." - Planescape Monstrous Compendium [page 26]

"The lawful fiends put forth the lie that nupperibos are true members of their race, and that the bloated monsters are turned into lemures as punishment." Faces of Evil, page 14.

So no, the advancement path from nupperibo to lemure to spinagon and so forth didn't change, only the explanation for it did.



> I don't think every single lemure had to be forcefully transformed into their lemure state from existing larva or nupperibos.




99% of them do. See _Faces of Evil_, pages 12-13. 

"Baatezu troll the layers for the hardiest larvae... and mold the things into lemures."

"...by the time the baatezu came along, most of the ancient Baatorians'd vanished or simply hidden themselves away. But the larvae still grew into nupperibios... the baatezu tried to put a stop to that by molding the larvae into lemures - the "young" of their race. And it's still going on today. If left alone on the plains of Baator long enough, larvae naturally spawn nupperibos."

"They also herd wandering nupperibos and 'demote' them to the status of lemure so they can join the baatezu race. But it's all a peel. The process isn't a demotion at all, it's a reshaping for selfish purposes, plain and simple."

Lemures are an imposition of an artificial order into Baator's pre-existing order, as befits the generation of a species who personify conquest and domination. They're melted-looking because they're literally having the "impurities" melted out of them, so they can become the only "true" personifications of law and evil - baatezu.

There is one exception - very rarely, baatezu of any rank pull themselves fully formed from the mathematics of Baator itself. This doesn't normally happen, but it's a possibility.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 28, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> You're reading into that article differently than I did. The point he seemed to be trying to make was that NE spirits were already evil, but as far as the Law/Chaos axis was concerned, they were a blank slate, ready to be filled with the messages of Law or Chaos that the tanar'ri wanted them to have; native larva already had their own ideas about what LE and CE were, and it wasn't worth the effort to "reeducate" them.




There's no reason they should be any more of a blank slate, as a group, than any other kind of petitioners. The Abyss attracts souls who were chaotic evil in life; Hades attracts souls who were neutral evil in life. Neutral doesn't mean "undecided" in this case - most NE characters are as convinced that they're in the right (or wrong, as the case may be) as those of any other alignment. 

It's like saying that LN characters are a "blank slate" in regards to good and evil, or like saying that LG characters are a "blank slate" that could be easily filled with the messages of LN or NG, or that CE characters could be easily filled with the messages of NE or CN. 

Why should NE petitioners have fewer ideas of their own than LE or CE petitioners? I don't buy it.

I like all the ideas in _Faces of Evil_, but I'm so-so on some of the concepts from the Dragon article you quote.


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> Ah, here's the quote: "Like larvae, manes are still petitioners." - _Faces of Evil_, page 42.
> "Other tanar'ri do not consider the manes to be _real_ tanar'ri - they are just petitioners, spirits of mortal berks who spent their lives on chaos and evil." - Ibid, page 44.




No contest there.



> _I can't find any reference to that. I don't have a problem with it, but I can't find any 2e source that says it happens._




"Evil spirits who end up on the Lower Planes _often_ become larva." (emphasis mine) - _On Hallowed Ground_, page 30.

"In the Abyss, particularly evil petitioners can become manes; on Baator, lemures." - Ibid.

That seems to suggest (if not make it pretty clear) that exceptional petitioners do seem to jump straight to those forms.


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## Shemeska (Oct 28, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> "Evil spirits who end up on the Lower Planes _often_ become larva." (emphasis mine) - _On Hallowed Ground_, page 30.




That's probably referring to the fact that petitioners claimed by specific deities can take alternate forms, and on some of the lower planes such as Gehenna and Carceri where they aren't automatically larvae, but not suggesting anything about manes.



> "In the Abyss, particularly evil petitioners can become manes; on Baator, lemures." - Ibid.




By promotion most likely once there, or spontaneous evolution of larvae into manes in the Abyss. That quote is ambiguious enough for you to claim it, but there's no other evidence really in what I've read suggesting that they can start as manes.

That said, I don't mind the idea of a very small fraction of CE Abyssal petitioners starting out as manes. There's not much difference between that and Tanar'ri being spontaneously born out of the raw stuff of the Abyss, which does happen occasionally. They're not bubbling up regularly like mezzoloths on the Waste or Gehenna, but they can appear de novo from time to time. While there's little to directly come out in support of the idea, I don't mind the most extremely CE petitioners starting off as manes.

By the sources though, it should be more like they spontaneously evolve to manes in very short order from larvae once there in the Abyss.


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

(rhetorical) question:

Is the 7th-level spell from the 1E PHB, cacodemon, being considered for conversion?


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## James Jacobs (Oct 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> (rhetorical) question:
> 
> Is the 7th-level spell from the 1E PHB, cacodemon, being considered for conversion?




It was considered for about a minute before I came to the conclusion that it's already been converted into the various _planar binding_ spells. There's no real need for a spell that does the same thing but just for demons, even if _cacodemon_ IS  a cooler name for a spell.


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## Erik Mona (Oct 28, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> I don't think the nalfeshnee are an essential step in tanar'ric evolution. Those who rule the Mountain of Woe have taken it as their role to speed up the process in order to supply the balors with vast hordes of troops. If they didn't do this, the tanar'ric armies would take longer to muster, but the tanar'ri race would still exist in all its forms (though some forms that are now common thanks to nalfeshnee interference would be rarer, largely confined to the layers in which they originally evolved).




This is very, very interesting, and I like it a lot. I don't particularly care for the idea that the Lords of Woe judge _every single_ larva that comes to the Abyss, but rather that they are attempting to jump-start the process to provide troops for the Blood War. That strikes me as a pretty ingenious way to have our cake and eat it too.

--Erik


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## Erik Mona (Oct 28, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> I can't find any reference to that. I don't have a problem with it, but I can't find any 2e source that says it happens.




Check the manes entry in the PCMC appendix 1. I seem to recall that it doesn't mention anything at all about larvae.

--Erik


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 28, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Check the manes entry in the PCMC appendix 1. I seem to recall that it doesn't mention anything at all about larvae.
> 
> --Erik



You're absolutely right about that. I meant that post-_Faces of Evil_, which I think introduced the "Grand Unified Theory of Larval-based Fiendish evolution" or GUToLF, as I like to call it when I'm feeling familiar, as I am right now - and which, now that I think of it, pretty much only existed in that book and possibly _Hellbound_ - didn't explicitly mention the possibility that souls turn directly into manes as well as evolving thence from wormhood. Which is a pretty narrow thing to say, but I mean that the GUToLF didn't in itself require the spontaneous be-mane-ing of souls, and manes are still petitioners anyway (though dretches are not). I mean, if we can consider pre-GUToLF texts we should also consider first edition ones, which certainly didn't use the GUToLF. 

But I mean, if I can formulate this in yet another way without trying everyone's patience, is that if you accept the GUToLF - as I do - there's no book that uses it that explicitly allows for spontaneous bemaning. Having some larvae simply evolve quicker than others seems more cogent to me, since you don't have to explain why some souls would become a maggot-thing and some a humanoid, but Shemeska's point about how the Abyss is a plane of Chaos and chaotic things happen there is a good one. Cogent isn't always better, not in the planes of Chaos.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 28, 2005)

As an addendum, I just coined the word "bemaning" above to refer to the formation of manes, either directly from incorporeal souls or evolving from larvae. Just because I like to make up words sometimes.

The verb I use to describe the equivalent process in nupperibos is "nupper," which is a much better word all around.


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Check the manes entry in the PCMC appendix 1. I seem to recall that it doesn't mention anything at all about larvae.




indeed!

"When chaotic evil mortals from the Prime Material Plane die, their spirits go to the Abyss and become manes. Those who were particularly cruel and evil in life are confined to the Pits of Despair on the 400th layer of the Abyss. Of this place, wizards and sages know only the name, because none have ever seen it. The Pits are thought to be hidden beneath the Mountain of Woe, but again, little is known."


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

Since I'm in a quoting mood today, and the text is excessively relevant, Faces of Evil page 42: 

"When a mortal has devoted his life to chaos and evil dies, he becomes a petitioner, and his spirit wends its way to the Outer Plane that most closely matches the essence of his former being: the Abyss. If, in life, the petitioner worshipped a particular Abyssal deity, he ends up in that power's realm and is transformed into a shape of the god's choosing (perhaps even his original form).
If, on the other hand, the mortal did not pledge his life to any one power, his spirit becomes a disgusting larva, which is still considered a petitioner. The new larva appears in the Mountain of Woe (the 400th layer of the Abyss), where it is  judged by pompous nalfeshnee according to the following guidelines:
·	Spirits with little promise become manes, fit only as food or supremely expendable soldiers. Like larvae, manes are still petitioners.
·	Spirits that seem sufficiently evil and malleable become dretches - honest-to-goodness members of the fiendish race.
·	Especially proud spirits that need to learn humility - and humiliation - become rutterkin, mightier than either manes or dretches but also more reviled."

"You - manes.  You - rutterkin.  You - dretch.  You - dinner." - Magistrate Oozewart, nalfeshnee lord, judging petitioners.


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## Shemeska (Oct 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> indeed!
> 
> "When chaotic evil mortals from the Prime Material Plane die, their spirits go to the Abyss and become manes. Those who were particularly cruel and evil in life are confined to the Pits of Despair on the 400th layer of the Abyss. Of this place, wizards and sages know only the name, because none have ever seen it. The Pits are thought to be hidden beneath the Mountain of Woe, but again, little is known."




Though they later expanded the process of fiend creation and progression substantially beyond that in the later books. EDIT - which you just quoted from in your next post. *chuckle*

What Rip / Grover said before works well w/ regards to Woeful Escarand's roll in it all. And my feelings on the topic, though I'm not too terribly attached to this all as long as it incorporates all of the various sources, are that while larvae are the default state for the vast majority of Abyssal petitioners, just by the nature of the Abyss as malignant chaos, you'll get things that break the rules and just start off as manes in some smaller fraction of cases.

And now, I have to go wander off to taunt petitioners, experiment on larvae, or brew coffee. Evil coffee. Something like that.


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

i think this can all be combined into a cohesive whole without really losing anything.

i mean, if there is one thing you can say about the Abyss or any other strictly Chaotic plane - is that you can never really say *Always* about anything.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2005)

Races with a little demon in 'em:

Tieflings (duh)
Alu-fiend (numerous pre-3e sources)
Cambion (numerous pre-3e sources)
Fey'ri - sun elves and demons (Monsters of Faerûn,Races of Faerûn)
Tanarukk - orcs and demons (Monsters of Faerûn,Races of Faerûn)
Wisplings - halflings and demons (Fiend Folio 3E)
Krinth - Netherese arcanists in the City of Shade and demons residing on Plane of Shadow (Champions of Ruin)

Half-fiend Variants:
Lizard King (Serpent Kingdoms, 1E FF)
Tanttur - advance tendriculous and demon (Random Encounters - Demons on WOTC site)


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Races with a little demon in 'em




Isn't that a joke told by quasits? "Hey baby, got a little demon in you? Would you like to?"


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Isn't that a joke told by quasits? "Hey baby, got a little demon in you? Would you like to?"




Sick minds think alike.


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## Shemeska (Oct 28, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sick minds think alike.




One of the PCs in my campaign hated quasits, or one quasit, for precisely that reason...


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> One of the PCs in my campaign hated quasits, or one quasit, for precisely that reason...




Ewwwww...


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

nasty little...


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## BOZ (Oct 29, 2005)

found more info on Zanassu and his role in Faerun in the Empires of the Shining Sea boxed set (1998), page 90.

 apparently, the aranea of Spider Swamp summoned him to fight Qysara Shoon V in 292 DR.  Shoon was able to defeat Zanassu and send him back to his Abyssal lair, where Selvatarm eventually hunted him down and defeated him, replacing and impersonating him.

this info kind of defeats the idea that Lolth took over his realm from him, since i'm sure she had her own at the time (i think?).


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 30, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> this info kind of defeats the idea that Lolth took over his realm from him, since i'm sure she had her own at the time (i think?).




Rather, I think she took her _second_ layer (Lolth's Web) from Zanassu. Her first layer (the Demonweb Pits) she already had. 

See the 1st edition _Manual of the Planes_, page 103, which clearly gives Lolth dominion over both the 65th and 66th layers of the Abyss.


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## Alzrius (Oct 30, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> Rather, I think she took her _second_ layer (Lolth's Web) from Zanassu. Her first layer (the Demonweb Pits) she already had.
> 
> See the 1st edition _Manual of the Planes_, page 103, which clearly gives Lolth dominion over both the 65th and 66th layers of the Abyss.




I don't know, the fact that she had two layers in an older product, and just one in later ones, seems to spell out that she used to rule both, but lost the 65th layer.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 30, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I don't know, the fact that she had two layers in an older product, and just one in later ones, seems to spell out that she used to rule both, but lost the 65th layer.




Could be. I tend to assume that just because something isn't mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or that Lolth doesn't rule it (the various worlds described in _Queen of the Demonweb Pits_ haven't been mentioned since then either, but Lolth probably still has a presence there). 

But, I mean, your way works too. Either way, the 65th layer was probably formally Zanassu's (since the 66th seems to be her primary realm).


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## BOZ (Oct 30, 2005)

that's certainly not an improbable theory.  of course, like graz'zt, she simply could have controlled more than one layer for a long time.  maybe lolth and/or selvatarm just killed zanassu in his realm and left him there to rot, never to look back.  or maybe they did keep it, and maybe it might be a third realm beyond the 65th and 66th.

of course, saying that zanassu's realm was on the 65th and they just took it from him does tie it all up rather neatly, and sometimes the simplest explanation is the most probable.    but i'm not the one to judge that, and the designers may not want to tie lolth's origins in with such a minor lord's so heavily.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 31, 2005)

*Older edition references*

Spyder-Fiend: Kakkuu, Spithriku, Phisarazu, Lycosidilith, Raklupis (Rod of Seven Parts, MCA4)

Kara-Tur Appendix: Krakentoa


Abyssal Bat (Planes of Chaos; AKA Varrangoin)
Equar, Charnalbalk (Dragon #243)
Shadow hounds (Giantcraft)
Bodak (PSMC1)
Eyewing (Monstrous Manual, MC4)
Fireshadow (MC4)
Demon Troll (Dragon #141)
Demonic Sawfly (Dragon # 252)
Dirtwraith (Dragon #270)
Fetch (MC4)
Gremlin (Monstrous Manual)
Hordling (PSMC1)
Narvaezan fiend (Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium)
Mara (MC11)
Quasit (MM, PSMC1)
Serpent Tree (Planes of Chaos)
Shadow Fiend (PSMC1)
Thunder Beast (MMII)
Tiefling (PSMC1)


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## Baramay (Oct 31, 2005)

thanks Grover Cleveland for explaining the "Fiend Sage"  and also thanks Boz for the link.  I have not been able to search on Creature Catalog to my dismay.

Some more names from 2nd edition 
Eleanor DeVille a succubus from The Book of Lairs II
From Iuz the Evil  -(Baron) Kerzinen of Rookroost a baron cambion (half-fiend)
                        -Marionnen a major cambion(half-field)
                        -(General) Sindol, Commander of Iuz's Legion of the Black Death a baron cambion(half-fiend)

Let me know if you are still looking for more


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> Kara-Tur Appendix: Krakentoa
> Gremlin (Monstrous Manual)
> Mara (MC11)




not so sure that these have any demonic or abyssal connection...


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 31, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> not so sure that these have any demonic or abyssal connection...




From the Kara-Tur Appendix: "The krakentua is a powerful demon spirit with an insatiable appetite for destruction..."

From the Forgotten Realms appendix II: "Mara are chaotic evil spirits that inhabit great bodies of stone... Mara are subserviant to tanar'ri and other powerful lower planar creatures of like alignment. Further, they can sense the presence of such creatures within a day's ride and move to aid or join them if possible. The creatures cannot gate mara in, however. If more than one chaotic evil planar creature is present, the mara obeys the most po werful. Typical simple commands that mara might receive from their master include orders to search here and there, to find and slay, or hold, a certain creature, and include a mental picture of the quarry or places to search for it.

"The exact mechanism by which mara occupy their stony bodies, and the way in which their spirits make their way from the lower planes to the Prime Material is unknown."

From Planes of Chaos, the Book of Chaos, page 19:

"The Abyss is large enough that creatures besides the tanar'ri can eke out a squalid, brutish life, but a creature's got to be tough and quick to survive. Some are mountains, behemoths, juggernauts of power that even the tanar'ri respect - creatures like bebeliths, bodaks, fireshadows, shinmus, water lords, and the greater varrangoin...

"Others are scavengers that hide in the cracks, scuttling into view only to snatch food and desperately trying to avoid attention. Abyssal scavengers include small fliers like galltrits, gremlins, mephits, shadow fiends, vargouilles, and lesser varrangoin.

"There's servant creatures that make themselves useful to far more powerful protectors: the spying eyewings, the lumbering mara, and trickster quasits. Fetch and yeth hounds also fall into this category."


Of the three, mara and gremlins are explicitly Abyssal natives. Krakentua, although they're chaotic evil demonic spirits, may arguably not be extraplanar depending on your campaign's cosmology.


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2005)

galltrits, gremlins and their ilk were never extraplanar before, to the best of my knowledge.  that reference could very well be amended with "planar versions of the...".  references are made all the time to elves, dwarves, and humans on the planes but we don't make the mistake of assuming that all elves, dwarves, and humans are extraplanar in origin.  

as for the krakentua, well the kara-tur cosmology doesn't necessarily correspond to the great wheel, and calling something a "demon" doesn't mean it has a bit of similarity to a tanar'ri demon (other than alignment).

as for the mara, you're absolutely right, and my bad.    i knew there was an animating spirit of some sort, probably planar, but did not recall that they were that implicitly tied in with the abyss.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Oct 31, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> galltrits, gremlins and their ilk were never extraplanar before




Yes, they were. Look at their entry in the 2e Monstrous Manual (which is the same as that in the 2e Monstrous Compendium: Greyhawk Appendix).

"Gremlins are magical creatures that originated on an unknown plane of existence."

"Gremlins are not a natural part of the ecology."

The designers of _Planes of Chaos_ looked at their alignment and decided that this unknown plane was the Abyss, although in their original Dragon Magazine appearance (Dragon #79) it was our Earth, circa WWII (and this was emphasized in WG7 Castle Greyhawk).

I like them as Abyssal scavengers a lot, and consider Planes of Chaos a more valid reference than the early Dragon (where they were different in appearance and abilities) or WG7 (which was a parody adventure). If you like the idea of them entering the D&D multiverse through a rift in space opened by the atom bomb, as the Dragon article had it, you can certainly do that instead, but the Abyssal origin is at least as valid. As demonic-looking chaotic evil beings from another plane, it seems reasonable. And consider the context of that quote - all the other monsters on the list are of lower-planar origin (mephits are elemental, but they're commonly created by fiends). Humans, elves, and such are nowhere to be seen.

But no, they're not in any source native to Oerth or Faerun (though jermlaines, mites, and snyads probably are). Even in _Castle Amber_ (where, again, they were different in appearance and abilities) they emerge from the Gray Mist which seperates the chateau from the mortal worlds - or may have, anyway. It's not completely clear. Castle Amber is itself an extraplanar environment, anyway. PC2 _Top Ballista_ says "They be a fairly recent addition to this world, if I have the right of it," created by an immortal of the sphere of Entropy (which represents chaos and evil, although Mystaran gremlins, like some of the gremlin-goblinoid crossbreeds of Oerth [like fremlins] are more mischievous than wicked). 



> as for the krakentua, well the kara-tur cosmology doesn't necessarily correspond to the great wheel, and calling something a "demon" doesn't mean it has a bit of similarity to a tanar'ri demon (other than alignment).




They're not necessarily tanar'ri, no - this thread isn't, and correct me if I'm wrong, about tanar'ri only, but Abyssal things in general - and it does depend on whether or not you assume that Kara-Tur is connected to the Great Wheel. In 2nd edition, it generally was (look at all the OA monsters mentioned in the Planescape boxed set). It seems to me that, in such a campaign, the Celestial Bureaucracy would assign chaotic evil spirits to the planes of chaos and evil.


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2005)

well done.    forcing you to explain yourself allows you to show your reasoning, and to show those viewing this thread where you are coming from that they may decide "the truth" for themselves.  i would not make the gremlins from the Abyss (or any discernable place in particular), but that is my opinion.

as for the krakentua, not all things called "demon" are from the abyss or are what proper D&D considers a demon.  yes, several things from K-T were mentioned in PS, but i don't recall the krakentua being one of them.  some things not originally officially "D&D-Abyssal" (such as the several Dragonlance monsters you mentioned; remember that "Abyss" in DL was a general reference to all lower planes, not specifically the main CE plane) were later assumed by the PS designers to be officially abyssal.  again, i say, as far as i know the krakentua was not one of them.  a DM can decide that they are abyssal for his campaign, and a designer can decide that they are (making it official for all time), but until there is an official word it is DM-call.  the celestial beurocracy is not tied to the same rules as the rest of the multiverse, and may have other planes that they use (Spirit World, for one).  i think the krakentua, personally, is from the Spirit World, as you will note in the CC conversion (near the bottom): http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=852


----------



## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 1, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> well done.    forcing you to explain yourself allows you to show your reasoning,




Devious! 



> the celestial beurocracy is not tied to the same rules as the rest of the multiverse, and may have other planes that they use (Spirit World, for one).  i think the krakentua, personally, is from the Spirit World, as you will note in the CC conversion (near the bottom): http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=852




Sure, if the Spirit World exists in your campaign. In a core cosmology-only campaign, you're pretty much stuck with the Abyss (or the Material Plane). Certainly in 2e the Celestial Bureaucracy was tied to the rest of the multiverse and its rules.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 1, 2005)

thus, it is open for interpretation.  

and i'm not sure how much the celestial beurocracy was tied to the core cosmology.  yes, they sort of operated together, and sort of not.


----------



## Shemeska (Nov 1, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> thus, it is open for interpretation.
> 
> and i'm not sure how much the celestial beurocracy was tied to the core cosmology.  yes, they sort of operated together, and sort of not.




Well they were all there with domains in various planes of the Great Wheel. I never saw anything to seperate them from the Wheel to be honest.


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## Alzrius (Nov 1, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Well they were all there with domains in various planes of the Great Wheel. I never saw anything to seperate them from the Wheel to be honest.




I agree with Shemmy on this one. The Celestial Bureaucracy is just a system of how that pantheon governs themselves, and works just fine on the Great Wheel cosmology.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 1, 2005)

well, OK, maybe i should re-state what i mean.  the celestial buerocracy was *physically* in the same *places* as the rest of the multiverse.  but they were very much their own deal, and did their own things, and mostly preferred not to interact with anyone else.

thus, i would not assume that a krakentua *was* from the abyss simply because it *could be*.  sometimes, the cleanest answer is not the best one.  i'm sure that the chinese gods had some demiplanes (ala Spirit World) for one thing, and i don't see anything about the krakentua to firmly state that it was extraplanar in origin.

same thing for gremlins and their ilk.    well, they clearly came from *somewhere* at some time, but not necessarily any plane we are familiar with.


----------



## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 1, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> well, OK, maybe i should re-state what i mean.  the celestial buerocracy was *physically* in the same *places* as the rest of the multiverse.  but they were very much their own deal, and did their own things, and mostly preferred not to interact with anyone else.




That's true, but that doesn't mean they didn't use the full complement of planes on the Great Wheel. The Palace of Judgement in the Outlands has portals leading to more planes than any town but Sigil so that Yen-Wang-Yeh can assign petitioners to the place most appropriate to them.

The Bureaucracy has one demiplane - the Isle of the Immortals - but the Spirit World is purely a 3rd edition concept outside the Birthright campaign. 

But you're right - it's all guesswork, and I never claimed (after my first post) that mine was the only possible interpretation of the krakentuas. _If_ spirits all come from another plane - and I'm not saying they do - then in the Great Wheel cosmology the plane krakentuas, as chaotic and evil demon spirits, come from should be the Abyss, or perhaps Carceri. IMC they're in Gaping Maw.

Gremlins are specifically associated with the Abyss, however. They're little demons (though not tanar'ri) according to Planescape, which is the source of much of what we know about the Abyss. There's no reason anyone should be forced to go along with that, but that's the most recent official word.


----------



## Alzrius (Nov 1, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> but the Spirit World is purely a 3rd edition concept outside the Birthright campaign.




To be clear, that was the Shadow World, and even in its early history wasn't that much like the 3E MotP Spirit World.



> _If spirits all come from another plane - and I'm not saying they do - then in the Great Wheel cosmology the plane krakentuas, as chaotic and evil demon spirits, come from should be the Abyss, or perhaps Carceri._




Or Pandemonium, which is chaos with evil as an afterthought. Or maybe, just maybe, they're from a plane that's not an Outer Plane, like the Ethereal or some natural demiplane. All aligned creatures don't have to come from an Outer Plane.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 1, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Or Pandemonium, which is chaos with evil as an afterthought. Or maybe, just maybe, they're from a plane that's not an Outer Plane, like the Ethereal or some natural demiplane.




Those are certainly possibilities, though they don't seem as appropriate to me. I mean, they're _demon spirits_. No matter how you parse that, the Abyss is the plane that comes to mind first.


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## Alzrius (Nov 1, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> Those are certainly possibilities, though they don't seem as appropriate to me. I mean, they're _demon spirits_. No matter how you parse that, the Abyss is the plane that comes to mind first.




Yes, but as BOZ pointed out, _Oriental Adventures_-style products that referred to "demons" didn't have to mean CE Outsiders from the Abyss. Dragon Claw (from _Mad Monkey vs Dragon Claw_) is one such example.


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## BOZ (Nov 1, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> Gremlins are specifically associated with the Abyss, however. They're little demons (though not tanar'ri) according to Planescape, which is the source of much of what we know about the Abyss. There's no reason anyone should be forced to go along with that, but that's the most recent official word.




eh???  source?



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Or Pandemonium, which is chaos with evil as an afterthought. Or maybe, just maybe, they're from a plane that's not an Outer Plane, like the Ethereal or some natural demiplane. All aligned creatures don't have to come from an Outer Plane.




that's basically what i was trying to say all along.  

of course, the point is moot if the FC1 designers decide not to touch the krakentua in the first place (odds on that: good!)


----------



## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 1, 2005)

Dragon Claw is certainly a chaotic evil outsider, though, and though the adventure doesn't specify there's not really anywhere he can be from but the Abyss or, I suppose, Carceri (he's too evil for Pandemonium). Ethereal demiplanes just don't spawn things like that. By the standards of his culture he's a god of sorts, although an extremely petty one without a formal divine rank. By anyone's standard but the tanar'ri, he's a demon.

As spirits, krakentuas should be outsiders or fey.


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## BOZ (Nov 1, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Yes, but as BOZ pointed out, _Oriental Adventures_-style products that referred to "demons" didn't have to mean CE Outsiders from the Abyss. Dragon Claw (from _Mad Monkey vs Dragon Claw_) is one such example.




that, and take a look at how Asian cultures use words like demon in the first place - very different than how we use the term.  many, perhaps most are evil, but they don't have to be by any stretch of the imagination.  the main character in Inuyasha is a demon and proud of it, but he seems to be more good than not (or at least screamingly neutral).

while the OA designers were probably not of an Asian culture, they were attempting to do their best to emulate it, and i think this aspect carried through.


----------



## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 1, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> eh???  source?




_Planes of Chaos_, as quoted above. They were specifically called "abyssal scavengers" and listed with a bunch of other Abyssal natives. Any attempt to present them as interlopers from a different plane in that context smacks of arguing-for-its-own-sake (which is what we're all doing, really, but still). A few of the demonic creatures they're associated with are found on other lower planes as well, but we've at least narrowed the gremlins down to the outer planes of chaos or evil. They could be cousins of the chaos imps of Limbo, I suppose (the Mimir lists them on their Limbo encounter list), but the intent of _Planes of Chaos_ was to list creatures native to the Abyss.

Really, it's bewildering to me that after seeing gremlins in a list of Abyssal creatures, someone would keep trying to claim that gremlins might not be Abyssal creatures. At the very least, they're an appropriate thing to mention in this thread.


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## BOZ (Nov 1, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> "Others are scavengers that hide in the cracks, scuttling into view only to snatch food and desperately trying to avoid attention. Abyssal scavengers include small fliers like galltrits, gremlins, mephits, shadow fiends, vargouilles, and lesser varrangoin.




so all creatures in this list are demons and abyssal natives, then?  does that include the mephits and vargouille as well?

this is the passage you are basing your assumptions on, correct?


----------



## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 1, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that, and take a look at how Asian cultures use words like demon in the first place - very different than how we use the term.  many, perhaps most are evil, but they don't have to be by any stretch of the imagination.  the main character in Inuyasha is a demon and proud of it, but he seems to be more good than not (or at least screamingly neutral).
> 
> while the OA designers were probably not of an Asian culture, they were attempting to do their best to emulate it, and i think this aspect carried through.




Asian cultures don't use words like demon, of course, but that's a good point. InuYasha is half "youkai," which isn't really the same as a demon. If you translate the krakentua entry as "youkai" then no, they probably don't come from the Abyss. If you translate it as "kami" they might be fey associated with volcanoes rather than planar things.

They could also be demons from the Lower Planes (they're far too evil for Pandemonium).

What struck me was that krakentuas are the _only_ things called demons in the Kara-Tur MC, despite the large number of other wicked supernatural monsters who could be called youkai. It's not definitive - and I've said over and over that they might be from the Material Plane instead - but it looks like a meaningful choice to me. 

Dragon Claw is still definitely an outsider, given the context.


----------



## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 1, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so all creatures in this list are demons and abyssal natives, then?  does that include the mephits and vargouille as well?




Yes, of course it does. Vargouilles are also found in a few other lower planes, but they're also native to the Abyss (the creator of the vargouilles, Rozvankee, lives in the Abyss to this day).

Nearly all mephits found in the Abyss will be the creations of tanar'ri, so they're definitely Abyssal natives.

If it were a list of everything that might conceivably _visit_ the Abyss, it would be much longer and include things like spirits of the air, mediators, yugoloths, humans, drow, and aleaxes.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 1, 2005)

obviously we have very different opinions on these subjects.  discussing it further seems pointless.


----------



## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 1, 2005)

That's probably something worth mentioning in this thread specifically - the creator of the vargouilles, a female lich named Rozvankee, travels the watery layers of the Abyss in a three-masted ship made from the bones of her enemies (source: PSMC1).

And yes, apparently whether or not gremlins and krakentuas come from the Lower Planes is really controversial. I had no idea.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 1, 2005)

true.  i was probably a bit overzealous in my attempt to separate "established fact" from "educated guess".    peace?


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## BOZ (Nov 1, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> That's probably something worth mentioning in this thread specifically - the creator of the vargouilles, a female lich named Rozvankee, travels the watery layers of the Abyss in a three-masted ship made from the bones of her enemies (source: PSMC1).




by the way, nice find.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> peace?




Yeah, of course.


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## Erik Mona (Nov 2, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> (the creator of the vargouilles, Rozvankee, lives in the Abyss to this day).




What's the source on this?

--Erik


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## Crothian (Nov 2, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> What's the source on this?
> 
> --Erik




Planescape Monstrious Compendium 1 under the vargouille ecology write up, though it is listed as a rumor there


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## Alzrius (Nov 2, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> What's the source on this?




2E's _Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix I_, under the vargouille section.

EDIT: Crothian beat me to it.


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## BOZ (Nov 2, 2005)

amazing what interesting tidbits of info can pop out of nowhere, even during a silly pointless argument.  

like i said, nice find.


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## Erik Mona (Nov 2, 2005)

Er, never mind.

--Erik


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## BOZ (Nov 2, 2005)

oh well, better luck next time.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 2, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Er, never mind.
> 
> --Erik




It's kind of disappointing, isn't it? It looked for a minute like a whole new Abyssal lord was out there, and it turned out to be just another lich. If you make her into an Abyssal lord I won't complain.


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## Alzrius (Nov 2, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> It's kind of disappointing, isn't it? It looked for a minute like a whole new Abyssal lord was out there, and it turned out to be just another lich. If you make her into an Abyssal lord I won't complain.




I don't see a problem with having a lich be the creator of vargouilles. There's already dozens of Abyssal Lords out there who are name-only. Having another one seems rather bland; at least there aren't quite as many Abyss-dwelling liches out there.

I took Eriks' "er, nevermind" to be in regards to his asking for a source and then realizing you'd already cited it.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 2, 2005)

That's true, and Rozvankee could be pretty interesting if she were fleshed out, even if she's "just" a lich.


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## GVDammerung (Nov 2, 2005)

You might find the following URL interesting -  

http://www.concentric.net/~slposey/Games/WD-Dealing_with_Demons.pdf

Please note the "Dungeoneering with Demons" conversion to AD&D and conversion notes from Best of White Dwarf No. 3.  If there is a question about "officiality," one might reflect on the relationship between the WD Fiend Factory and the contents of the Fiend Folio, if the mere use of the IP is insufficient.


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## Grover Cleaveland (Nov 2, 2005)

GVDammerung said:
			
		

> You might find the following URL interesting -
> 
> http://www.concentric.net/~slposey/Games/WD-Dealing_with_Demons.pdf




That's really cool stuff. "Eldyr is overlord of Incubi, Succubi, and Gremlins." Even though it's Runequest, I feel somehow vindicated by that. Oh, and then there are AD&D conversions.


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## BOZ (Nov 2, 2005)

it is neat, but is it useful?  that is to say, who owns the copyright?  if it's anyone other than WotC, then when designing a book one is better off not even looking at it at all.


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

i have struck again!  

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=154911


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## Ripzerai (Nov 5, 2005)

Does anyone have any of Mayfair's old demon-themed supplements for their RoleAids line? They ought to be fair game, considering Mayfair is owned by Hasbro now (and I believe Mayfair gave the rights to the RoleAids to TSR after a 1990s lawsuit anyway).


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## Alzrius (Nov 5, 2005)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any of Mayfair's old demon-themed supplements for their RoleAids line? They ought to be fair game, considering Mayfair is owned by Hasbro now (and I believe Mayfair gave the rights to the RoleAids to TSR after a 1990s lawsuit anyway).




The idea may be worth merit, but it strikes me as being "iffy." For one thing, I'm not sure if those supplements work with the existing planar structure (I don't have any of them). For another, that lawsuit is pretty famous, but it didn't kill the Role Aids line. What happened was that TSR simply bought the line later. However, that may not necessarily extend to previously-published products, and Mayfair is still around to sue anyone who uses their IP without their permission.


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## Ripzerai (Nov 5, 2005)

It seems unlikely that one branch of Hasbro would sue another, but I don't pretend to understand all the machinations of the corporate world.


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## BOZ (Nov 5, 2005)

it may warp your fragile human mind in ways that talking about infinite planes and incomprehensible evil beings of indescribable power may not.


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## BOZ (Nov 5, 2005)

BTW, here's one i've been wondering about.  are there any magic items, spells, artifacts, or other weird magic stuff in general that applies specifically to demons or the abyss in general?  

somebody mentioned the "demon amulets" from 1E before...


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## Ripzerai (Nov 5, 2005)

Demon amulets were what demon lords kept their spirits in - they were essentially the demonic equivalent of lich phylacteries. Orcus' amulet appears in _Dead Gods_ (it doesn't have any power to hurt him anymore), and the recent Zuggtmoy article mentioned that Zuggtmoy keeps Iuz's amulet in her realm.

Juiblex's amulet is a small glass jar that once contained catfish bait, according to _Castle Greyhawk_. He keeps it under a rotten log in his master bedroom.


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## BOZ (Nov 5, 2005)

any comments on the first part of my post, then?


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## grodog (Nov 5, 2005)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any of Mayfair's old demon-themed supplements for their RoleAids line? They ought to be fair game, considering Mayfair is owned by Hasbro now (and I believe Mayfair gave the rights to the RoleAids to TSR after a 1990s lawsuit anyway).




I do, though they're not at hand.  IIRC, the demons were based in part on the Seven Deady Sins, which, IIRC, Erik used partly in his Green Ronin demon books, so I'm not sure he'd want to revisit that ground again?


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## BOZ (Nov 5, 2005)

*shrugs*  dunno, but i suspect not.


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## BOZ (Nov 6, 2005)

Just as a note, from PSMC2, the following creatures are not demons and not necessarily unique to the Abyss, but the Climate/Terrain line suggests that they are often found there:
Bloodthorn (same as plant originally found in 1E MM2), Darkweaver, Vorr

These three creatures can now be found in the Fiend Folio.


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## BOZ (Nov 6, 2005)

Looking through some old notes...

May not be demon-specific, but I found some magic items and spells I had listed out perhaps a decade ago.  It's hardly inclusive, perhaps only covering products from the first year or two of Planescape, but here it is:

Spells:
* Campaign Setting:
Surelock, 4th level priest spell
Warp Sense, 2nd
* Planes of Law:
Spirit Wrack, 6th
Cacofiend, 7th
True Name, 7th
and something about Archon priest spells...
Gate Ward, 2nd
Gate Seal, 3rd
Cubehopper, 6th

Magic Items:
Lightbringer (minor)
Planar Mancatcher
Scourge of Lightning
Scythe/Sickle of Light
Scythe/Sickle of Pain
Scythe/Sickle of Paralyzation
Planar Wards
Shifter's Manacles
* In the Cage:
Chronosphere of Lagos, p39
Helm of the Dabus, p41
Lantern Staff, p16
* Player's Primer to the Outlands:
Mimir
* Planes of Law:
Chains of Light (Arcadia p7)
Vambraces of Evil's Warding
* Deva Spark (the Items of Accord):
Chalice of Peace
Waters of Serenity
Gem of Harmony


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## Ripzerai (Nov 6, 2005)

I notice - to carry on with a long-dead conversation - that the 1st edition Monster Manual I said that imps and quasits were made from larvae, too. It _does_ seem odd that these tiny messengers of lawful or chaotic evil would be made exclusively from neutral evil souls, and I think that was  probably the reason larvae were made to exist in the Abyss and Hells as well.


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

probably.  *shrugs*    who knows.  i'm sure Erik has made up his mind by now how he's going to write that one up...


----------



## Ripzerai (Nov 7, 2005)

*Abyssal heraldry*

From the Planes of Chaos Monstrous Supplement (found by GV Dammerung):

"Each armanite troupe carries an individual troupe banner and the banner of their current master or mistress, such as Graz'zt's diagonal black-and-white slash or Pazrael's golden talon on dark red."


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## GVDammerung (Nov 7, 2005)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> From the Planes of Chaos Monstrous Supplement (found by GV Dammerung):
> 
> "Each armanite troupe carries an individual troupe banner and the banner of their current master or mistress, such as Graz'zt's diagonal black-and-white slash or Pazrael's golden talon on dark red."




Muchos grasias, Ripper.  For a good many things Grazzt see - http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1162


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## GVDammerung (Nov 7, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm currently writing up Azzagrat. Does anyone know if the three layers of the Triple Realm have ever been given official names? It would make things a lot easier if they had them...
> 
> --Erik




Not specifically to my knowledge.  I think FDaD is suggestive of the layers being "named" by their most prominent features.


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## johnnype (Nov 7, 2005)

Hey BOZ, can you list for me you favorite planescape products that focus on demons devils and the lower planes. Keep in mind that I only use 3.5 for I'm mostly interested in fluff not crunch. Thanks.


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## Zappo (Nov 7, 2005)

Check out the Abyssal Campaign linked in my sig. Plenty of Abyssal everything there - stat blocks for several unique beings, new layers, characters, one or two spells, plenty of background, and more.


----------



## GVDammerung (Nov 7, 2005)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any of Mayfair's old demon-themed supplements for their RoleAids line? They ought to be fair game, considering Mayfair is owned by Hasbro now (and I believe Mayfair gave the rights to the RoleAids to TSR after a 1990s lawsuit anyway).




Yes.  I am working on a Canonfire article that will deal with them (after I finish the Fiend Factory incorporation) but in a nutshell they are interesting to me as follows:

(1) The MF Demons postulates an Infernum/Infernus (contrary to Grodog, these are not altogether "sin based" as there are only 5 realms within Infernum/Infernus vs the 7 deadly sins and as the descriptions are far more wide ranging; we are talking over dozens and dozens of named demons plus more demonkind);

(2) Lucifer was "cast out of Hell" in the old Politics of Hell Dragon article;

(3) Lucifer is given Infernum/Infernus to rule in Tome of Horrors Vol I which was, as I understand it, under license from Wotc, not sure how that effects copyright, but for my purposes copyright is irrelevant; and

(4) It is then possible to connect the "cast out" Lucifer with Infernum/Infernus.  This is particularly fascinating as Lucifer is a devil and infernus is populated by demons.  I love that "logic,"    as it opens some greater possibilities, IMO, than/in addition to the tired "Bloodwar."  

::Nod to Rip. It also puts the "Grazzt hypothesis" vis-a-vis the idea that he was sired by Asmodeus/Jaserine(whatever the spelling of Asmodeus' other name is) into play, when we mix devils and demons, even if it ultimately is not Grazzt specific in that way)::

There is more too it, obviously, but there you have it in a nut shell.

For purposes of the Fiendish Codex, I think there is probably not time, space nor inclination to pursue the incorporation of the Demons line (6 products, btw).


----------



## Shemeska (Nov 7, 2005)

johnnype said:
			
		

> Hey BOZ, can you list for me you favorite planescape products that focus on demons devils and the lower planes. Keep in mind that I only use 3.5 for I'm mostly interested in fluff not crunch. Thanks.




I'm not BOZ, but... here you go. These books are primarily fluff, and I use them heavily in my own 3e games with almost no need to convert and crunch numbers.

Faces of Evil: The Fiends - the seminal work on the ecology, history, and psychology of the primary fiend races.

Hellbound: The Blood War - focuses of the Blood War, it's history, the way each fiend race approaches the War Eternal, and how the War impacts each of the various races who hold a stack in its outcome.

Planes of Chaos - all good things Tanar'ri. Focuses on the Chaos touched planes(CE, CN, CG)
Planes of Law - all good things Baatezu. Focuses on the law touched planes.( LE, LN, LG)
Planes of Conflict - all good things Yugoloth. Focuses on the neutral planes. (NE, NG, TN)

Dead Gods - deals with the death and rebirth of Orcus as Tenebrous, and his attempts to regain his lost divinity and status as an Abyssal Lord.

Tales of the Infinite Staircase - portions of the module take place in Baator on the layer of Minauros in the city of Jangling Hiter. Said Kyton city is largely fleshed out here more so than in any other source.

Uncaged: Faces of Sigil - several seriously interesting fiends are fleshed out including 2 arcanaloths, the cambion servant of Grazzt named Rule-Of-Three, a nalfeshnee, etc. I consider this to be the single best NPC book I've ever read.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 8, 2005)

*Monte Cook explains Thralhavoc (to the best of his recollection) *

a bit of unofficial lore from Monte:

"Yeah, that was mine. Honestly, I don't really remember anything about him, or if I even had anything in mind. It was a complete throwaway reference. I'm pretty sure I just needed a cool name. However, I suppose that if, back then, I had been asked to stat him up, I would have continued the Malhavoc theme and made him a demon lord of shadows. Maybe even a bit of a rival of Orcus' hold over the undead (with Thralhavoc being a lord of undead shadows as well). He'd probably human sized, but mostly just a shadow."


----------



## BOZ (Nov 8, 2005)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> From the Planes of Chaos Monstrous Supplement (found by GV Dammerung):
> 
> "Each armanite troupe carries an individual troupe banner and the banner of their current master or mistress, such as Graz'zt's diagonal black-and-white slash or Pazrael's golden talon on dark red."




that's... pretty cool.  



			
				johnnype said:
			
		

> Hey BOZ, can you list for me you favorite planescape products that focus on demons devils and the lower planes. Keep in mind that I only use 3.5 for I'm mostly interested in fluff not crunch. Thanks.






			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> I'm not BOZ, but... here you go. These books are primarily fluff, and I use them heavily in my own 3e games with almost no need to convert and crunch numbers.




yeah, i would trust Shemmy on that one.  i was pretty into Planescape in a big way about 8-10 years ago, but a lot of time has passed since then.  Shem has studied all of that stuff far more recently than i have, and probably to a much greater extent as well.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 8, 2005)

*Wolfgang Baur on Volisupula*

a response, as ill-timed as it is:

"Thanks for asking but sorry, I think he was mostly a throwaway. 

I'd dig through my notes from the period, but I'm moving house and
everything's in storage. Ask again in July.

Wolfgang Baur"

someone remind me to ask again 8 months from now, because i know i won't remember.


----------



## johnnype (Nov 8, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> I'm not BOZ, but... here you go. These books are primarily fluff, and I use them heavily in my own 3e games with almost no need to convert and crunch numbers.



 Thanks Shemeska, very helpful. Now I go on a pdf shopping spree.


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## Knightfall (Nov 9, 2005)

I'm really digging this thread. Shemeska's list of "fiend-related" Planescape material has made me a bit nostalgic for my (now departed) Planescape library.  

It miss those old references. And, man, did I ever have a lot of them!

Looking forward to the Fiendish Codex.  

And for those wishing to see demons done a little differently, check out my Homebrewed Demons. (Thread a continous work in progress.)

Cheers!

Knightfall1972


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## BOZ (Nov 9, 2005)

if you can find any of your old references, let us know!


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## Knightfall (Nov 9, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if you can find any of your old references, let us know!




Unfortunately, I had to sell them, including most of the rest of my 2nd Edition collection, several years ago for rent and food money. That was a bad year for me.


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## BOZ (Nov 10, 2005)

*Colin McComb responds regarding Zzyczesiya*

defintely amusing at least.    apparently, i will also have to bother Ray Vallese for his opinion on this one as well!  

very unofficial, but if anyone wants to make use of it, they are free to do so.  

"I hate to disappoint, but I'm pretty sure that was one of Ray's additions. What you reference was most definitely a throwaway line, but I'll be happy to make something up for you on the spot:

_Zzyczesiya, Demon Lord of Confused and Malevolent Ignorance_
*Abode:* A murky land, the features of which defy mapping. Cartographers have noted its tendency to shift the moment they set pen to paper, and while enemies of Zzyczesiya have attempted to overthrow the Demon Thing with armies of map-makers, the result is always tragedy (for the mappers, that is). Lava pools appear, mountains grow where none existed before - or worse, they disappear. The sky of the land is an inky gray, the entirety of which is a portal to neighboring layers (which ones? YOU DECIDE). Creatures fall in and out of it all the time, some on purpose. Most are those who have lost their way through pride or sheer dumb misfortune.
*Appearance:* Think of a cloak of darkest shifting shadows. Add the fluttering of bats and the incompetent bumbling of moths. Then add an indeterminate numbers of fangs and stingers. Remove a voracious appetite (Zzyczesiya is voracious for nothing, but most especially not for knowledge) but include three wrathful eyes that burn green from everchanging positions inside that penumbra.
*Portfolio:* Those who resist knowledge in all its forms, those who seek to stamp out learning in an attempt to return to a better time, those who insist on a single worldview and hate dissent - these are all the servants of Zzyczesiya. 

Zzyczesiya's powers are amorphous, and the Demon Lord (or is it Lady?) has likely forgotten their full extent, or has otherwise never bothered to learn how far its powers extend. It takes part in the political games of the tanar'ri lords only sparingly, because its rivals outclass it in intelligence and ambition and it resents them for this. Still, each of them seeks to draw Zzyczesiya in to temporary alliances, for the Demon Thing wields incredible brute power. Those who manage to ally themselves with Zzyczesiya are occasionally fortunate enough to achieve their ends - many of them are not, for the Thing directs ill will and ill fortune indiscriminately. 


I hope that's a vague enough description that you're able to do something menacing with it. Now you've got me thinking more about it. DAMN YOU, BOZ, DAMN YOU.

-Colin"


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 10, 2005)

Not sure if you already have it, but:

Dragon Annual #3 has an article called "Planar Pestilence". I haven't read it en detail yet, but among the diseases, Abyssal Rot and Zombic Leprosy seem most strongly tied to the Abyss. Planar rabies (Sceulia) might have some ties. The Pox (Scourge of Anthraxus) mentions the possibility that it wasn't created by Anthraxus, but by the Lords of the Nine as a weapon against the Tanar'ri.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

A few more I didn't see searching this thread...

From Dragon #12 ("The Persian Mythos"):
Archdemon, Ahriman or Angra Mainyu, "The Wicked One"
Archdemon, Aeshma, Demon of Wrath, Fury, and Outrage
Archdemon, Azhi Dahaka, Demon of Deceit
Archdemon, Az, Demon of Wrong-Mindedness
Archdemon, Akak Manh, Demon of Vile Thoughts 
Archdemon, Indra, Demon of Apostasy 
Archdemon, Saura, Demon of Misgovernment, Anarchy, and Drunkenness
Archdemon, Taromaiti, Demon of Crooked-mindedness
Demon, Druj Nasu, The Corpse Demon 
Demon, Jahi, Debauchery 

From Dragon #26 ("The Chinese Undead"):
Goat-Demon (actually undead, not a demon, but could be tied to Yeehoghu as it is a variant ghoul)

From Dragon #146 ("Dragons are Wizards' Best Friends"):
Demon Drake

From Dragon #252 ("Dragon's Bestiary: The Horrors of M.R. James"):
Demonic Sawfly


----------



## BOZ (Nov 10, 2005)

i don't remember the demon drake having anything to do with actual demons apart from the name... am i mistaken?

cool find on that Persian mythos stuff!


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

Demon Drake -- Not specifically, but if they wanted to make it so it wouldn't take too much work.


----------



## GVDammerung (Nov 10, 2005)

Demonwing - the plane Demogorgon fashioned into a boat.  From A Paladin in Hell.


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## BOZ (Nov 10, 2005)

LOL  neat, but weird.    of course, we can learn to expect neat but weird things from the exemplars of Chaotic Evil...


----------



## BOZ (Nov 11, 2005)

*Bill Slavicsek on Lindyrm*

"Wow, that was a long time ago! 

As far as I can tell, Lindrym was created just as a backstory antagonist for Deva Spark. I can't recall if I made up the name or if that was one of the things we salvaged from the original designer's manuscript. Either way, it was just used as flavor and as an impetus for the motivations of the characters in the adventure. No additional material was ever created. Though we might resurrect the name in some future product!

Bill"

i wonder who this mysterious "original designer" was...!


----------



## BOZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Because I don't think I mentioned it before, this passage was from Monstrous Mythology:

"[Laogzed's] origins are always mythologically ascribed to the coupling of an evil god with a reptilian tanar'ri demale; sometimes Panzuriel is considered to be this monster's father, else a demented deity of darkness such as the Elder Elemental God."


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> LAYER 421: SALTED WOUND (Realm of Doresain, the King of the Ghouls, vassal of Yeenoghu; Libris Mortis, name from the Mimir)
> LAYER 422: THE SEEPING WOODS (Yeenoghu's realm)




BTW, i think Monte must have missed this reference when writing the BoVD.    "Yeenoghu does control a layer of the Abyss, which he creatively calls Yeenoghu's Realm."  (p 141)  still, i like Monte's joke anyway.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 5, 2005)

for the sake of completeness:



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> I believe it was simply called Yeenoghu's Realm in early Planescape products, and the name Seeping Woods only appeared in On Hallowed Ground.
> 
> "Salted Wound" is, of course, a placeholder name from the Mimir, not an official one (though Doresain does officially have a layer).




Monte was probably unaware of the OHG reference, since it was apparently the only one.

***

http://p096.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm31.showMessage?topicID=518.topic

and scrolling down to about 2/3 the way down the page:

"Known as the "Demon Lord of Gnolls," this 12 feet tall gnoll-like demon lord rules the 421st layer of the Abyss known as Salted Wound, the 422nd layer knwon as the Seeping Woods, and the 423rd layer known as the Smouldering Waste (under the auspices of the Gnoll Lord's minion Zalintar ). Yeenoghu has a stronghold the size of a city which is pulled by slaves as it slowly cross the barren salt wastes of his layers on colossal rollers."


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## Alzrius (Dec 5, 2005)

BOZ, does that website prove anything? It's not a canon source.


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## Ripzerai (Dec 5, 2005)

The bit about Yeenoghu's slave-powered roller city is from the 1st edition Manual of the Planes (which is where the description, though not the name, of Salted Wound comes from).

The bit about Zelintar is from the long-defunct Planescape.com fansite.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> BOZ, does that website prove anything? It's not a canon source.




it proves nothing at all.  i just thought it was interesting to look at.   and rip says part of it is official anyway, so we're all the better for that.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

don't know if all of this from Dragon was mentioned previously:

289 - Abyssal maw (The Gnolls of Naresh, Chris Pramas)
295 - Cataboligne demon (Monstrous Denizens of Oerth, Sean K. Reynolds)
298 - Aracholoth, brood mother, proxy of Lolth, spiderleg horror  (The Punishments of Lolth, Eric Cagle)
312 - Demon, turagathshnee; demon lord, Turaglas (The Ebon Maw: Beware the Waking Hunger, Ari Marmell)


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## BOZ (Dec 7, 2005)

*Ray Vallese on Zzyczesiya*

here is the last of the responses on the topic of obscure Planescape demon lords.  

"Hi, BOZ - 

Monte forwarded your question to me. Sorry that it took me awhile to respond! 

I probably did add that reference to Faces of Evil, since I wrote most of Xanxost's narrative. And you may already suspect this answer, but it was a throwaway name. I just wanted an Abyssal lord who sounded like he'd definitely come at the end of the alphabet. I didn't come up with any kind of description or backstory on the guy (or girl, or thing). Anyway, Xanxost wasn't the most reliable narrator, so he might have been confused and garbled up some existing lord's name.

In fact, if all you're looking for is some semi-official confirmation on Z., why not go with that -- scholars who've read Faces of Evil believe it to be a misstatement by Xanxost, which would hardly be surprising, but then again, the Abyss is endless, so who knows for sure?

Or, if you prefer, feel free to make up whatever details you like about the lord. That's what I used to do a lot as a Planescape designer -- latch onto some small throwaway line written by Colin or Monte or someone else and spin it into some big new thing. I liked the sense of continuity when tiny things carried over from book to book.

I hope this helps. 

Ray Vallese"


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## Evilhalfling (Dec 7, 2005)

Two general questions - 

1 is there a demon lord affiliated with dragons? 
- my campaign world needs a second demonlord influenceing events. Demegorgon is getting over used.  Its on a archipeligo with jungles.  Dragons have overrun the surface, and there are none of the races affiliated with other demonlords. 

2. why do Yugoloths lack portfolios? Demons mostly have races, devils have vices.  The only yugoloth with a portfolio was Aranthax - and even he is gone. 

2b- what does a yugoloth use for mortal servants - lacking both an ideology and a slave race doesn't leave obvious choices (although that may be on purpose.)


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## Shemeska (Dec 7, 2005)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> 2. why do Yugoloths lack portfolios? Demons mostly have races, devils have vices.  The only yugoloth with a portfolio was Aranthax - and even he is gone.
> 
> 2b- what does a yugoloth use for mortal servants - lacking both an ideology and a slave race doesn't leave obvious choices (although that may be on purpose.)




2) It's a bit too broad to say that demons have races and devils have vices. Some do, alot don't.

The 'loths have in general blanket nonspecific, impersonal evil. Some of their unique members have plague and disease associated with them (Anthraxus, Bubonix, Cholerix, Typhus, etc) while others don't (Taba, Cerlic/Charon, Mydianchlarus, Helekanalaith, Daru Ib Shamiq, etc) Rip came up with the idea that Mydianchlarus was obsessed with anonymity, which was something that he lost when he toppled Anthraxus and became Oinoloth, and it's an idea that I like. But there's no official answer here.

For my own purposes I've come up with a group of 13 Baernaloths who serve as the 'advisors' (desired or not) to the most powerful Ultroloths and unique 'loths, and each of them has a specific 'portfolio' if you will, along with a specific physical defect. But it's somewhat vague, and they haven't staked down a portfolio in specific like a deity might.

None of them are true deities, and 'loths abhor the very idea of deities, so they're not interested in gaining portfolios or worshippers in that sense. They're just interesting the manipulating the Blood War and supporting the universal spread of pure, neutral evil, untainted by law or chaos. Any way that will gather those ends they'll use.


2b) For the most part they don't have any specific mortal servants, and largely they're unconcerned with mortals beyond making them puppets and tools. The great part about corrupting mortals for the Abyss and Baator is that you can snag souls/petitioners which you can use to make more Tanar'ri or Baatezu, except that Yugoloths don't have any direct link to petitioners, most of them spawn directly from the raw stuff of the the Waste, Gehenna, and possibly Carceri. They don't need to have any specific groups or races, because the end product of that servitude isn't really all that useful to them.

They aren't choosy though, and the 'loths will dig their claws into anyone if it serves their purposes. Mortal wizards seeking knowledge are likely a particular delicacy for the arcanaloths of the tower arcane, since they as a subrace of 'loths effectively embody the idea of the abuse of sorcery to selfish ends.

And if you were looking for non mortal servants, well, you could make an argument for the Tanar'ri and Baatezu being at times unwilling pawns. But that's getting a bit beyond the scope of the original question.


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## Ripzerai (Dec 8, 2005)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> 1 is there a demon lord affiliated with dragons?




I'm sure there is. For simplicity, you might use Pazuzu, who is patron of all flying things. Or you could create a layer ruled by an Abyssal or fiendish dragon. One fansite called such a being Telnenarjan, a fiendish or half-fiendish red dragon. See also here.

Or use Pazuzu.



> 2. why do Yugoloths lack portfolios? Demons mostly have races, devils have vices.  The only yugoloth with a portfolio was Aranthax - and even he is gone.




Anthraxas isn't really gone, just wandering the lower planes. He can still be a dangerous antagonist.

For a list of powerful yugoloths, see this download.



> 2b- what does a yugoloth use for mortal servants - lacking both an ideology and a slave race doesn't leave obvious choices (although that may be on purpose.)




Any neutral evil creatures would be appropriate: goblins, kenku, evil human, halflings, and dwarves, drow, yugoloth-blooded half-fiends and tieflings (obviously), skulks, cloud giants, worgs, winter wolves, and yeth hounds would all work. Individual yugoloths might prefer specific species.


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## Shemeska (Dec 8, 2005)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Any neutral evil creatures would be appropriate: goblins, kenku, evil human, halflings, and dwarves, drow, yugoloth-blooded half-fiends and tieflings (obviously), skulks, cloud giants, worgs, winter wolves, and yeth hounds would all work. Individual yugoloths might prefer specific species.




Mmm... yeth hounds. *flashes some fangs*

They're fun. My players may feel otherwise. Soon.

*cough* But anyways, tieflings and half-fiends w/ 'loth blood are what I tend to use about in equal proportion to just plain old neutral evil humans who happen to either be in league with a 'loth, gullible and being used without their knowing it, or working with them at the end of a dagger to their back, so to speak.

The cloud giants are a nice idea though. I'll have to keep that one in mind.


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## countgray (Dec 11, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Also, it's somewhat confusing trying to tie all of this in with the larvae, which went from something exclusive to Hades (1e) to something that seems to transcend the Lower Planes. Larvae can be turned into quasits and imps, which can evolve to more powerful demons (like manes). What makes one dead CE character a manes and the other a larva?
> 
> --Erik



Larvae in 3E have been returned to their 1E exclusivity to the plane of Hades.  *Larvae only form in Hades.* See the 3E *Manual of the Planes pp. 108 & 109* for details about larvae.

Larvae are now/once again a special form of Hades petitioners.  Hades has 2 kinds of petitioners.  It has ordinary NE petitioners which look like they did in life, and also Larvae.  Larvae are the forms taken by only *the most selfish and malicious petitioners* that come to Hades.  The *stats for larvae are on page 109*.

What's interesting about larvae is that they do not have the "*planar commitment*" trait which means that larvae can be taken off plane.  So unlike other petitioners that have "planar commitment", larvae are "portable" and can be taken, bought, sold, or travel themselves to other lower planes.  This makes them a good comodity to be used as base soul-stuff for demonic and  diabolic projects.

However, it should be noted also that both Manes and Lemures also have the Extraordinary Abilty "No Planar Commitment" and they too can travel freely about the planes. Which I suppose makes them useful for fighting the Bloodwar.


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## Ripzerai (Dec 11, 2005)

I loathe the Planar Commitment trait. I don't see a point in it, other than to deprive players of getting to play petitioners, which I think would be really fun. And it arbitrarily goes away for a few kinds of petitioners just because it's inconvenient? That's bad design. Granted, I don't really want to play a larva, lemure, or mane.

We debated the larva topic earlier, Gray. I think the reason they were changed from only being Hades petitioners to being found in the Abyss and Baator as well was because imps and quasits are said to be made from larvae, and it seems inappropriate for LE and CE minions to be created exclusively from NE souls. It's for this reason, primarily, that I think larvae should be returned to their broader origin.

Arguably, they never left it - the _Manual of the Planes_ is rather brief in places, and might just have left out the part about manes being larvae for a brief initial period for simplicity's sake.


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## countgray (Dec 11, 2005)

I only wanted to answer Erik's question about the status of Larvae in 3e.  They have been returned to Hades as they were in 1e.  Larvae are only a specialized form of Hades petitioner in 3e.

As for planar commitment, it is an official mechanic of the planes in 3e.  I think it is an interesting rule, but have no "commitment" to it myself one way or the other.  It is a rule that Erik will have to deal with when writing the codex.

If they decide to toss out the rule that is fine, I just think it should be done in a considered manner, with forethought, and not by error or failing to notice that the rule exists.

Also, I see no barrier to playing a petitioner as a character even with the "planar commitment" trait.  It would seem a simple matter of introducing a *feat* that overides planar commitment for a petitioner.  Or the introduction of a *spell* or *magic item*.  

In fact, planar commitment I think could add some flavor to the game.  It might be fun to try and defeat an opponent petitioner by doing a sunder or disarm attack on his _planar non-commitalisman_ to send him back to his home plane.

You know, I actually have just convinced myself that I like planar commitment.  It is a minor impediment that can add to the game by presenting interesting choices.  It is easily overcome by a feat, spell or item.  And it allows planar lords to keep petitioners in places that they don't want to stay, which creates drama and conflict to add to the adventure.  I am all for planar commitment.


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

interesting!



			
				countgray said:
			
		

> It is a rule that Erik will have to deal with when writing the codex.




exactly true.  i suspect that has already been decided though, as he asked about that awhile ago.


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## countgray (Dec 12, 2005)

Perhaps. They seem like they are really on the ball.  Just trying to do my part to help out.  

I think a feat, spells or magic items that play with planar commitment have yet to be addressed and could make for an interesting mechanic to include in the book.

For instance, a spell to temporarily supress planar commitment so a petitioner can travel through a portal without teleporting away to a random destination on his assigned plane.

Or a spell to reassign or attune a petitioner's planar commitment to a new plane.

Or a spell to give an outsider planar commitment (who hadn't previously had it) for the purpose of binding it to a specific plane, either temporarily or permanently.

Add in the feat "planar free agent" to let petitioners wander where they will and be used as PC's, and a handful of magic items that deal with the mechanic, and you have filled a few paragraphs of the requisite crunchy pages with some useful information for players and DM's alike.

Also, a little lore about planar commitment and why the lack of it makes the larvae such valuable commodities for the Night Hags to trade in would be interesting too.

Something for the writers to think about, at least, if they haven't thought of it themselves already.


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

there you go.  i don't know if they are still reading... and when they are, they are usually quiet about it.


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2005)

found another creature:
Dungeon #64, "Grotto of the Queen," page 22 features the Tribute Gatherer, an octopus-like creature that serves the goddess Umberlee.


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## Alzrius (Dec 16, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> found another creature:
> Dungeon #64, "Grotto of the Queen," page 22 features the Tribute Gatherer, an octopus-like creature that serves the goddess Umberlee.




Cool find, but it's in no way demonic that I can see. It's just a creature created by a deity that lives in the Abyss.


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2005)

despite the thread title, i never intended it to be demon-only; all Abyssal things will do.


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## Ripzerai (Dec 16, 2005)

Grover Cleaveland said:
			
		

> What struck me was that krakentuas are the _only_ things called demons in the Kara-Tur MC, despite the large number of other wicked supernatural monsters who could be called youkai. It's not definitive - and I've said over and over that they might be from the Material Plane instead - but it looks like a meaningful choice to me.




Just noticed that the krakentua originally appeared in the adventure _Test of the Samurai_, and there they're described as "evil spirits" rather than "demon spirits" as the Kara-Tur MC had them; they also seem to be native to the Material Planar island of Gargantua. From their treatment in that module, I'd have to classify them as fey. Gigantic, scary-ass fey.


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## BOZ (Dec 17, 2005)

the male krakentua actually predated the female, and is found in Night of the Seven Swords.

i really didn't look in the old modules for ecological info, so i totally missed the "island of Gargantua" bit.  when we did the CC conversion, we stuck with Aberration (their 3.0 conversions were Aberration); some creatures are hard to call so you kind of have to go with your instincts.  Fey would seem to work just fine, as would Monstrous Humanoid or Outsider depending on how you look at them.


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## diaglo (Dec 22, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> found another creature:
> Dungeon #64, "Grotto of the Queen," page 22 features the Tribute Gatherer, an octopus-like creature that serves the goddess Umberlee.



did you check out the old Monsters of Dungeon thread in the CC forum?

i think dungeon 89 and 95 are ones to reference for the prevision stats. Orcus and some chosen of Kootchtchie are in 89 iirc. and the Narzugon and Mezzoloth plus Orlath and some thrall of Demogorgon are in 95.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

ooh, juicy - i didn't notice that.  a new demon type in Dungeon #95!

i wonder if the Kostchtchie article (Dragon #341?  #345?) will reference Dungeon #89 at all.  and Frostburn too, for that matter. he was originally taken from Russian folklore correct?

also, apparently, Dungeon #117-119 was a demon-themed story arc which featured a cleric of Kosty.


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## diaglo (Dec 22, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ooh, juicy - i didn't notice that.  a new demon type in Dungeon #95!
> 
> i wonder if the Kostchtchie article (Dragon #341?  #345?) will reference Dungeon #89 at all.  and Frostburn too, for that matter. he was originally taken from Russian folklore correct?
> 
> also, apparently, Dungeon #117-119 was a demon-themed story arc which featured a cleric of Kosty.





do you need those Dungeons added to your list?: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=67183


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

I know I've got the orlath and chosen of Kostchtchie in the Dungeon monsters index.  I'll check on the rest.

The orlath is quite cool.    

Also, although this may have already been mentioned here, the Lord of the Scarlet Tide from #85 was referenced in the Zuggtmoy article.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

right - i remember noticing that.


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## KL (Dec 24, 2005)

*Overlooked demon*

Didn't Dragon magazine once published the gelloudes, a form of demon who serve the demoness Gello?

Also, did anybody here mentioned the Orlath and Cataboligne?

Anyhow, Gygax's Gord books do include a lot of demons: chargin (and their lord Cagrino), zubassu (which I think is NOT a form of nabassu as they have been described as four-winged man-hawks) and their lord Ogrijek, the fesroo, boorixtro, wulox, dusin, nikomar, etc.


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## Clueless (Dec 24, 2005)

What do we know about the demon lord Alzrius? (other than his namesake here  It's relevant to some work on planewalker re: Ortho)


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## Alzrius (Dec 24, 2005)

Clueless said:
			
		

> What do we know about the demon lord Alzrius? (other than his namesake here  It's relevant to some work on planewalker re: Ortho)




I am one of the most mysterious and hidden of Abyssal Lords, with only my name whispered in fear. No mortals dare to define me with mere stats!   

Seriously though, not much. He's the Lord of the Flowing Flame, and rules layer 601, Conflagratum. His physical form is actually a large pillar of flame, and when his armies go on a campaign, the leader of the armies carries a piece of Alzrius's body as a torch.

He had a magic item, the flame amulet of Alzrius, in _Polyhedron_ #135 (written by Erik Mona). Also, while not explicitly stated to be his, one of the armors from the article "Armor of the Abyssal Lords" (_Dragon_ #270) is likely his, as it has a flame theme, and the article says no one knows which lord that armor is attributed to.


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## BOZ (Dec 24, 2005)

the majority of information on Alzrius can be found in Hellbound: the Blood War.


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## Silver_Shulad (Dec 26, 2005)

Sorry just had a question..   


True names and Demons, uttering their true name, what does this mean, and are there any sources on it..   

What kind of power do you hold over it? is this only in the prime and for summoning, or speaking it in their native plane give any bennies?


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## BOZ (Dec 27, 2005)

here is a thought: what do the designers think about returning a Psionics option to demons?  back in the 1E days, most of the archdemons, as well as the succubus, hezrou, glabrezu, nalfeshnee, marilith, balor, alu-fiends (on an individual basis), and babau all had access to psionic powers.

might be useful for those who run psionic-based campaigns to have a sidebar or a few paragraphs providing some optional rules.


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## BOZ (Jun 17, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> a response, as ill-timed as it is:
> 
> "Thanks for asking but sorry, I think he was mostly a throwaway.
> 
> ...




oh well, i guess it's too late to ask Wolf about Volisupula now...


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## Ripzerai (Oct 28, 2006)

Heads up on a new demon prince - Chernovog, who is worshipped by hags and witches in _Expedition to Castle Ravenloft_. I don't see a formal declaration of his areas of interest, but his aspect has warlock invocations.


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## Shaggman (Aug 2, 2008)

*New Person to Forum with Questions about Eltab the Demon Prince*

Hello Everyone,

I was wondering if anyone has a link, or could post, the profile for Eltab.  I am currently in a campaign where our DM likes to throw Demons at us and he mentioned Eltab.  He told us that we are no where close to taking on a Demon Prince.  I'd like to see what Eltab is all about .  

I am rolling a 21st lvl Stone Giant Monarch (class created using an aristocrat with some other cool class skills), and my companions are rolling a 20 lvl vampire Darklord (think of a sith lord) and a 26 lvl Red Dragon.  We also have a 24th lvl Stone Giant Priest of Skoriaus (think of a Priest of Pelor with the same healing and stone and elemental skills rather than the undead scourge), a 23rd lvl Stone Giant ranger (the sneakiest Stone Giant around), and a Pyromaniac Human who is a 15th lvl mage and priest, all as NPC's.  If this group can't take on Eltab I'd like to see what the Prince is all about


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