# Arcane Divine dual-casting classes



## Thrallherd (Oct 1, 2011)

Is there anywhere I can find a list of Arcane/Divine dual-casting PrCs?  If so, where?


----------



## Starbuck_II (Oct 1, 2011)

Thrallherd said:


> Is there anywhere I can find a list of Arcane/Divine dual-casting PrCs? If so, where?




Geomancer (advances in a weird way)
Mystic theurge (advances both Divine/Arcane)
Arcane Hierophant (Druid/Arcane)
True Necromancer (not considerd a good one though but yes Divine/Arcane)
Fochlucan Lyrist (bard/divine)

Did I miss any?

You could be a Druid/Bard/Arcane Hierophant/Fochlucan but requires much work (ring of evasion, etc).


----------



## Visigani (Oct 1, 2011)

The only one really worth a damn is Arcane Hierophant... other than that, off the top of my head..

Mystic Theurge
Fochlucan Lyrist
True Necromancer
Green Whisperer



... and that's about it really. I'm sure there are a few more... but for arcane/divine spellcasting there's few and far between.


----------



## Empirate (Oct 2, 2011)

Fochlucan Lyrist doesn't advance Bard/divine, but arcane/divine. It's just assumed that you're entering from Bard, but there are ways around that. Tricky class to qualify for in any useful way, to say the least.


----------



## Jeffrie (Oct 2, 2011)

Chameleon. (heh)

Depending on what you want, Chameleon is the fastest Dual Caster progression i know. ECL6, 20th caster level and dual 6th level spells in only 10 levels, and you don't even need a spellcaster prereq. Enter from Factotum, or Rogue types. 

The balance is that it doesn't stack with other spellcasting classes, so 6th level spells is all you get if you go that way. The good part is it lets you have 10 levels to do whatever else you want (facto 11, cham9?)

Isn't there a feat that lets you learn one spell of a higher level?

Cloistered Cleric 13/ Chameleon7
7th level cleric spells, plus domain access to higher level spells, but at lower caster level.

I warn you, dual casters have lots of ammo, but less punch. Arcane Hierophant is the only 'strong' one. The facto/cham is pretty awsome to, i think, but again more support type (though you can get 20CL).


----------



## Thrallherd (Oct 2, 2011)

Thanks for the information.
I love Chameleon, but it doesn't fit my concept.  I'm trying to make the most effective Wizard/Cleric possible.  Probably going to use Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant.  Probably taking a Geomancer dip for Full Plate arcane casting, and Intelligence divine casting.


----------



## rgard (Oct 2, 2011)

Thrallherd said:


> Thanks for the information.
> I love Chameleon, but it doesn't fit my concept.  I'm trying to make the most effective Wizard/Cleric possible.  Probably going to use Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant.  Probably taking a Geomancer dip for Full Plate arcane casting, and Intelligence divine casting.




The Arcane Hierophant requirements pretty much make this a Druid/Arcane build.  I've seen folks start with Wiz/Druid/AH and finish up with MT to get to level 20.


----------



## emoplato (Oct 2, 2011)

Well, their other ways to Arcane Heirophant the Spirit Folk in Oriental Adventures automatically give you trackless step and no LA. It is also possible to use the Shaman there and update it to 3.5, one powerful companion instead a small army at your beckoning. If you are looking another class there is the Hathran from Players Guide to Faerun but the DM may get really pissed off as you start using ring of wizardry, simulacrum circle magic brokenness.


----------



## Thrallherd (Oct 2, 2011)

I was going to use Tge Spirit Folk.


----------



## Jeffrie (Oct 3, 2011)

I've played a lot with the dual caster builds, and where i don't know the races and LA's i do know the classes fairly well. 

What do you mean by "most effective" and what other goals do you have?

And what kind of early entry are you willing to allow?
*Archivist2 / Sorcerer1/ Vecna godblooded LA+1/ MT 5/ Wildrunner1/ Arcane Hierophant10*
Every Divine Spell in the book + any arcane spell you can get a divine copy of, + 8th level Sorcerer, and completely immune to all detection.

Druid1 / Sorcerer*2*/ MT 6/ Wildrunner1/ Arcane Hierophant10
CL 17/18. The strongest dual caster in the game without ur-priest or sublime chord nonsense. Very simple. 

Or Druid5/ Sorc1/ MT3/ WR1/ AH10 for wildshape/companion advancement (very strong).

If your DM disqualifies the early entry. . . .
Druid3 / Sorcerer*3*/ MT 3/ Wildrunner1/ Arcane Hierophant10
16th CL each.

I can tell you how to qualify for Fochlucan either/or.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-le...er-stand-alone-versatility-help-please-2.html


----------



## Thrallherd (Oct 3, 2011)

My most effective I mean I want 9th level spells in both classes if possible, not extremely MAD, and some Armor Class wouldn't hurt, either.  I was planning on something like this:
Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Wizard +2/Geomancer 1/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 5.


----------



## Jeffrie (Oct 3, 2011)

Ya'know that skips wild shape right? and i don't think you have trackless step. Why do you have Geo? for scent?

Druid5/ Wizard1/  AH10/ MT4
19th/9 and 15/8

Druid3/ Wizard1/  AH10/ MT6
19/17 with no scent.

Cleric1/ Wizard1 /Geomancer 1/ MT2/  Wildrunner1/ AH 10/ MT4
17/17  with scent, maybe that's the one you want? Needs at least Heighten Spell and Endurance to qualify.


----------



## the Jester (Oct 3, 2011)

Starbuck_II said:


> Geomancer (advances in a weird way)
> Mystic theurge (advances both Divine/Arcane)
> Arcane Hierophant (Druid/Arcane)
> True Necromancer (not considerd a good one though but yes Divine/Arcane)
> ...




You can't qualify for prestige classes with magic items AFAIK.


----------



## Empirate (Oct 3, 2011)

Sure you can. Why not? Just don't lose the item in question, or you'll lose the PrC's benefits.


----------



## Visigani (Oct 3, 2011)

Empirate said:


> Sure you can. Why not? Just don't lose the item in question, or you'll lose the PrC's benefits.




What Empirate says is correct.

Let's say you have 12 strength. You can put on a Gauntlets of Ogre Str +1 to get 13. This qualifies you for power attack. Should you ever take the gloves off, or for some other reason not have the ability to qualify for power attack you lose power attack and everything you've gained based on power attack 9such as cleave) and any class features you've gained as a result of qualifying for power attack.

This is written (somewhere) and is Law.



As a side note... this means any time you get zapped with Dave of Enfeeblement and it brings you low enough you should rightfully lose power attack and any and all class features and feats based on power attack.


----------



## Deset Gled (Oct 3, 2011)

Visigani said:


> What Empirate says is correct.
> 
> Let's say you have 12 strength. You can put on a Gauntlets of Ogre Str +1 to get 13. This qualifies you for power attack. Should you ever take the gloves off, or for some other reason not have the ability to qualify for power attack you lose power attack and everything you've gained based on power attack 9such as cleave) and any class features you've gained as a result of qualifying for power attack.
> 
> ...




Empirate is generally correct (although it is debatable), but you are only half right.

Following your example, lets say you use a magic item to raise strength to apply for Power Attack, then take a PrC that requires PA, then lose the magic item (orr get Enfeebled, poisoned, whatever).  When your strength is below 13, you have lost the ability to use Power Attack, but you have not actually lost the feat.  You have still spent the slot on the feat, and still possess it for the purposes of qualifying for the PrC. You simply cannot make use of the feat (or any other feat that requires 13+ strength).

This is an important design consideration, and it is very clearly delineated in the way prerequisites are written.  Note that all feats that build on other feats have the same base ability scores (ex: Great Cleave specifically lists Str 13+ as a prereq, despite the fact it also requires Power Attack), but PrCs prereqs are never written with an ability score (ex: Shadowdancer requires the Dodge feat, but not Dex 13+).  This is an important distinction, and understanding it is critical to properly designing new feats/classes/whatever for v3.5.  The reason for this distinction is to stop the exact scenario you mentioned where Ray of Enfeeblement (or poison, etc) becomes a save-or-die spell.


----------



## Jimlock (Oct 3, 2011)

...that does make some sense.


----------



## Visigani (Oct 4, 2011)

Deset Gled said:


> Empirate is generally correct (although it is debatable), but you are only half right.
> 
> Following your example, lets say you use a magic item to raise strength to apply for Power Attack, then take a PrC that requires PA, then lose the magic item (orr get Enfeebled, poisoned, whatever).  When your strength is below 13, you have lost the ability to use Power Attack, but you have not actually lost the feat.  You have still spent the slot on the feat, and still possess it for the purposes of qualifying for the PrC. You simply cannot make use of the feat (or any other feat that requires 13+ strength).
> 
> This is an important design consideration, and it is very clearly delineated in the way prerequisites are written.  Note that all feats that build on other feats have the same base ability scores (ex: Great Cleave specifically lists Str 13+ as a prereq, despite the fact it also requires Power Attack), but PrCs prereqs are never written with an ability score (ex: Shadowdancer requires the Dodge feat, but not Dex 13+).  This is an important distinction, and understanding it is critical to properly designing new feats/classes/whatever for v3.5.  The reason for this distinction is to stop the exact scenario you mentioned where Ray of Enfeeblement (or poison, etc) becomes a save-or-die spell.





Based on this logic a Paladin that dons an alignment reversing helmet would retain all of his class features despite no longer qualifying for the class.

"CW, P16, Meeting Class Requirements:
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided."


Sorry Chum, it's been written in stone. Do you qualify for the class? No? Then you lose all class features. Could you take a new level in it RIGHT NOW if you had the xp? No? Then you lose all class features. Simply having Power Attack in the past does not mean you currently "have" it just like being good in the past doesn't mean you currently have a good alignment.


----------



## Jeffrie (Oct 4, 2011)

While i see you as mostly right, your quote is for prc and Paladin is a base. Also, paladin has it's own specificity.

I do believe that the word requirement means required. A ring of evasion leaves a Fochlucan10 as a potential nobody.


----------



## kitcik (Oct 4, 2011)

Visigani said:


> Based on this logic a Paladin that dons an alignment reversing helmet would retain all of his class features despite no longer qualifying for the class.
> 
> "CW, P16, Meeting Class Requirements:
> If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided."
> ...




Your example is very different from Deset Gled's and I am not sure you have taken the time to appreciate the difference or the point Gled is making.

Here is the difference. Say a PrC requires a prerequisite.

In your example, you lose the prerequisite --> you lose the PrC abilities.

In Gled's example, you lose the ability to USE the prerequisite, but you still HAVE the prerequisite --> you keep the PrC abilities.

One last thing - you say "you do not currently have Power Attack" - but you DO currently have Power Attack, you ust cant use it. There;s a difference.


----------



## Empirate (Oct 4, 2011)

Visigani said:


> Sorry Chum, it's been written in stone. Do you qualify for the class? No? Then you lose all class features. Could you take a new level in it RIGHT NOW if you had the xp? No? Then you lose all class features. Simply having Power Attack in the past does not mean you currently "have" it just like being good in the past doesn't mean you currently have a good alignment.




Apart from the Paladin example, which just isn't pertinent, let's take a look: if I have the Power Attack feat and get Str damaged below 13, do I still have PA? Sure, it says so right on my character sheet!



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated  ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other  quality designated *in order to select or use that feat*. A character can  gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.
> A character can’t *use *a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.




You don't lose a feat just because you don't fulfill a prerequisite anymore. You just can't *use *it for as long as that prerequisite remains unfulfilled. Nowhere in any PrC's requirements does it say "must be able to *use *all the feats that are listed above RIGHT NOW".

If I'm a Blackguard and get Str damaged by a Shadow, so now I'm Str 12 until I get a Lesser Restoration. I can't use PA for the time being, but I sure as hell can use my Blackguard class features (spells etc.)! What's more, if I happen to gain enough XP to level up, I can take another Blackguard level just fine RIGHT NOW, because I do _have _the PA, Cleave, and Improved Sunder, even though I can't use them until that cleric gets his butt over here. 
Heck, he doesn't even have to cast Lesser Restoration, a simple Bull's Strength would be just fine. Or maybe he can lend me those Gauntlets of Ogre Strength of his, and I'll be great.
[funnily, by RAW I couldn't take the Great Cleave feat RIGHT NOW even if  my levelup permits me to choose another feat. But no sane DM would  disallow it, I wager]

Another question to you: do you really want to introduce _even more_ bookkeeping into effects that temporarily change ability scores?


----------



## the Jester (Oct 4, 2011)

Empirate said:


> Sure you can. Why not? Just don't lose the item in question, or you'll lose the PrC's benefits.






Visigani said:


> What Empirate says is correct.
> 
> Let's say you have 12 strength. You can put on a Gauntlets of Ogre Str +1 to get 13. This qualifies you for power attack. Should you ever take the gloves off, or for some other reason not have the ability to qualify for power attack you lose power attack and everything you've gained based on power attack 9such as cleave) and any class features you've gained as a result of qualifying for power attack.
> 
> This is written (somewhere) and is Law.




Where is it written?

I recall this being a point of contention in 3.x throughout and never being satisfied with the argument that magic items counted for meeting prereqs. Or perhaps I house ruled against it. But I don't recall ever seeing a rules citation backing this up. I could be wrong.

N.B. Customer service inquiries and the like are _not_ rules citations.


----------



## Visigani (Oct 4, 2011)

Christ people... It's complete warrior, page 16... it's spelled out clear as day:

Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character
to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position
where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the
class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character
death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important
ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible
to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a
prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features
or other special abilities granted by the class. The character
retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as
any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses
that the class provided.


Having 13 Str is a requirement for certain prestige classes because 13 str is a requirement for power attack, which is a requirement for prestige classes.


It says "An alignment change, levels lost because of character
death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important
ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible
to advance farther in a prestige class."

Note: "Loss of an ability". Even if you still have the feat power attack, you no longer have the ABILITY to power attack. If you lack the ability you lose the class.


----------



## Empirate (Oct 4, 2011)

Power Attack is not an 'ability', whatever that is supposed to be - it's not a game term, unlike 'ability score'. Gauntlets of Ogre Power don't grant Power Attack, they grant +2 to Str. If you qualify for Power Attack using those gauntlets, then sell them, that doesn't mean you lose Power Attack. It only means you cannot use it anymore - _except to qualify for prestige classes or anything else merely requiring you possess the feat_.

Blackguard prereqs:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Requirements*
> 
> To qualify to become a blackguard, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
> *Alignment*
> ...




Str 13+? Not in evidence. If I somehow manage to just _have _the feats required, that's enough. Note that in the prerequisites of the Cleave and Improved Sunder feats themselves, Str 13 is a _separate requirement on top of _Power Attack. For Blackguard, it isn't. What does that tell you?

Another thing: Some feats can be taken if you don't fulfill the prerequisites. Monks can explicitly take Stunning Fist at first level even though their BAB probably isn't +8, Rangers can take Two-Weapon Fighting even if they have Dex 6.
Does a Ranger/Tempest with the two-weapon combat style (and wearing light armor) somehow lose the benefits of the Tempest prestige class when his Dex is below 13?


BTW, thanks for the Complete Warrior citation - that should defuse the Jester's doubts, at least.


----------



## Visigani (Oct 4, 2011)

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the
indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus,
or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A
character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she
gains the prerequisite. For example, at 3rd level, Krusk, the halforc
barbarian, could spend 1 skill point on the Ride skill
(gaining his first rank in Ride) and select the Mounted Combat
feat at the same time.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.
For example, if your character’s Strength drops below 13
because a ray of enfeeblement spell, *he or she can’t use the Power
Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met*.


Bold is mine "Use the Power attack feat". This includes using the power attack feato to qualify for prestige classes.


Failing this, use the smell test. Can someone who is feebleminded and unable to cast high level spells on account of being a drooling idiot still use that caster level to acquire that prestige class?

The plain answer is "No". If you're slobbering on yourself and unable to, you know, form a coherent thought, then you shouldn't be able to turn around and take a level in arch mage.

Do you still "have" those caster levels? Yes. However, you are unable to use them due to your lowered ability scores and therefore cannot qualify for the prestige class. Because of this you lose the class features and the like that prestige class offers.


----------



## the Jester (Oct 4, 2011)

Visigani said:


> Christ people... It's complete warrior, page 16...




Fair enough, I must have house ruled against it.


----------



## Loren Pechtel (Oct 4, 2011)

Visigani said:


> Christ people... It's complete warrior, page 16... it's spelled out clear as day:
> 
> Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character
> to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position
> ...




I think where you would lose the PrC is if the lost item actually granted something required to enter.  Say, a Ring of Evasion and a PrC that required Evasion.  Lose the ring and you lose access to all PrC abilities.


----------



## Jimlock (Oct 5, 2011)

Visigani said:


> Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the
> indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus,
> or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A
> character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she
> ...




IMO, this POV is quite irrational, but let me explain why.

Ability score penalties and damage happen all the time. In almost every combat someone loses points in an ability. To a D&D adventurer, this is everyday life.

Also... a PrC is not some magical trinket you just can't used because it's jammed. A PrC is experience and know-how in a certain domain of expertise. A character is supposed to have studied, to have practiced, to have trained... so as to be able to do and be what a given PrC is and does.

The way you describe things, PrC-loss should happen in almost every combat, cause plenty of PrCs require plenty of feats that require a certain ability score. A lot of PrCs that provide spell progression require the character to be able to cast spells of a given level, or even specific spells. When a caster loses points in his primary ability (INT or WIS or CHA) he loses the ability to cast those spells MOMENTARILY. Does he seize to be the PrC he is? 

No, just as the wizard does not seize to be a wizard even if his INT drops to 9. Even if INT drops to 4, he still keeps the telepathic link with his familiar, he can still talk to his familiar, he can still use spellcraft... he is still a wizard.


They still know the spells, because once the ability score comes back to normal, they are still able to cast the required spells. (otherwise the spells would have been removed from their mind).
Now, if we're talking about a cleric that turns into an ex-cleric, that certainly changes things, because he now loses PERMANENTLY the ability  to cast a required spell or spells from a certain level.

IMO, this is one of the reasons they removed the ability score requirements from 2nd to 3.x (as far as classes are concerned) ...it can simply cause a mess.

Honestly, I do not believe it was the designers' intention to make PCs and NPCs lose PrCs every other round, cause this is what would happen if you played the game, the way you describe.

Moerever, what you claim is not spelled out explicitly in the text you provided. I admit that one can read it the way you do, but under no circumstances is it "written in stone" as you claim it is.

RAI and logic comes into play, and my logic says that an experienced fighter shouldn't "forget" what he gained throughout training and experience, simply because his biceps have been temporarily weekend  due to a spell cast on him.


----------



## Visigani (Oct 5, 2011)

So despite it saying, clearly, you lose all class features save BAB, hp etc... it means the entire opposite because it would be... inconvenient to the players?


----------



## Jimlock (Oct 5, 2011)

Visigani said:


> So despite it saying, clearly, you lose all class features save BAB, hp etc...




clearly? clearly what? how? 



Visigani said:


> it means the entire opposite because it would be... inconvenient to the players?




That's not what I said. Read my post again if you may.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Oct 5, 2011)

One more option for arcane/divine blend classes: adopt Trailblazer's rules for a unified spellcasting mechanic. Then you could get 9th level divine spells and 9th level arcane spells with base classes alone.


----------



## Visigani (Oct 5, 2011)

Jimlock said:


> clearly? clearly what? how?





If a character no longer meets the requirements for a
prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features
or other special abilities granted by the class.




> That's not what I said. Read my post again if you may.




Saying that you no longer have access to power attack AT ALL... yet can still use power attack (which you can't do) as a qualifier is bizarre in the extreme.



A ring that gives power attack is effectively identical to gaining the feat power attack. If you lose access to the ring, or to the feat you may no longer use power attack. If power attack is a qualifier for the prestige class you are no longer qualified for that prestige class.

Saying you HAVE power attack you just don't have access to it is the same as saying you HAVE a ring of power attack it's just been temporarily broken into pieces. In either case, item or intrinsic ability you NO LONGER HAVE ACCESS TO POWER ATTACK. You may not use it as a feat, whether to qualify for a prestige class or in combat.


----------



## Empirate (Oct 5, 2011)

To keep my Blackguard example: if I have Power Attack and get Str damaged so my Str is 12, I most certainly still know just how it works, I'm just not strong enought to pull it off anymore. The technique, the brain muscle, the memory of how it feels - it's all still there, I'm just a little too winded to pull it off at the moment. Similarly, cleaving through weakened foes into their allies, and breaking a foe's weapon effectively, are techniques I have mastered a long time ago and am not like to forget anytime soon. I just so happen to not have the strength RIGHT NOW to pull it off just right, until that thrice-damned Cleric finally gets his wrinkly behind over here to fix me.

Does that mean I forget how to sneak attack, or lose my bond with my fiendish companion, or suddenly lose access to all the spells the dark powers-that-be have granted me for the day? Do I suddenly risk poisoning myself when I wipe down my sword with Wyvern venom?

I think not. That's not 'inconvenient', as you claim, that's ridiculous.


Also, your rules text quotations aren't the only ones in this thread, and you haven't shown conclusively how your reading is superior to that of others. I prefer to assume that stuff works on a sane basis.


----------



## Jimlock (Oct 5, 2011)

Visigani said:


> If a character no longer meets the requirements for a
> prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features
> or other special abilities granted by the class.




from the text you sited:

Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character
to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position
where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the
class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character
death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important
ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible
to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a
prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features
or other special abilities granted by the class. The character
retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as
any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses
that the class provided.



Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the
indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus,
or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.
For example, if your character’s Strength drops below 13
because a ray of enfeeblement spell, he or she can’t use the Power
Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met.

NOWHERE does it say that:

"Meeting the requirements" (a feat for a PrC) = being able to use that feat.

...and not simply having selected/"having"/knowing that feat.

The text explicitly says that you must fulfill requirements in order to SELECT or USE a feat, as it explicitly says that if you lose requirements you can't USE the feat.

NOWHERE does it say that if you lose a prerequisite, you lose the feat altogether.

You can yell and shout and moan, but NOWHERE is it written down that "meeting class requirements" means what you claim it means.

Moreover, the examples stated are the following:
1)Alignment change
2)levels lost because of character death
3)the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability.

#s 1 & 2 are pretty clear, so let's stick to #3 so as to respond to this:



Visigani said:


> A ring that gives power attack is effectively identical to gaining the feat power attack. If you lose access to the ring, or to the feat you may no longer use power attack.
> 
> Saying you HAVE power attack you just don't have access to it is the same as saying you HAVE a ring of power attack it's just been temporarily broken into pieces. In either case, item or intrinsic ability you NO LONGER HAVE ACCESS TO POWER ATTACK. You may not use it as a feat, whether to qualify for a prestige class or in combat.




When a magic item grants an ability, and this ability copies a class ability or feat, the magic item magically grants you ALL the knowledge required so as to allow you to do what it grants you. A ring of power attack grants you the knowledge of an experienced swordsman, thus permitting you to wield the sword in the appropriate way so as to receive Power Attack's benefits. You lose the ring, you lose the knowledge. No longer do you KNOW/HAVE Power Attack.

OTOH, if you have already selected Power Attack as a feat, it means that you have the knowledge and experience in you, that you have mastered the art, which will grant you Power Attack's benefits. Even if you lose some strength, the knowledge sticks with you, it doesn't evaporate as with the loss of the ring (You have already SELECTED/MASTERED that feat. You HAVE that feat).




Visigani said:


> Saying that you no longer have access to power attack AT ALL... yet can still use power attack (which you can't do) as a qualifier is bizarre in the extreme.




Don't twist the words of others, so as to create an effect. NOONE said that "you can still use power attack as a qualifier"

What we say is that by not being able to use a feat temporarily, does not mean you lose the feat altogether, as explained above.

What is bizarre in the extreme, is saying that if your muscles get weakened, you lose a swordsman's knowledge.

So, again, not only what you claim is not supported by RAW... It is not even supported by RAI.


----------



## Visigani (Oct 5, 2011)

So your argument is that if a ring grants me knowledge of combat expertise and i lose that ring it is wildly different from if i cant use combat expertise because i become a drooling idiot.

 Because the knowledge stays with you! Entirely ignoring the fact that all subsequent feats in the line are also negated.

Its just a self servong and brazenly off interpretation of the rules.


----------



## Jimlock (Oct 5, 2011)

Visigani said:


> So your argument is that if a ring grants me knowledge of combat expertise and i lose that ring it is wildly different from if i cant use combat expertise because i become a drooling idiot.
> 
> Because the knowledge stays with you! Entirely ignoring the fact that all subsequent feats in the line are also negated.
> 
> Its just a self servong and brazenly off interpretation of the rules.




Quite a few ppl, including me, disagree with what you say, which by the way... are not rules written in stone, but claims made out of thin air.

You can stick around and alone by the side your unsupported opinion, that's fine.

But I 'm not gonna stick around in this thread, because I've already done my "one on one" VS irrational posts for the week, right here. It was quite tiring, and I don't think I have the nerves for a second one.

Adios.


----------



## Visigani (Oct 5, 2011)

Simply because you say my views are unsupported doesn't mean they aren't. That's simply your opinion. And it's a wrong one. Which, of course, is my opinion. =)


----------



## kitcik (Oct 5, 2011)

Visigani said:


> Simply because you say my views are unsupported doesn't mean they aren't. That's simply your opinion. And it's a wrong one. Which, of course, is my opinion. =)




The fact that [MENTION=6674931]Jimlock[/MENTION] says your views are unsupported is immaterial.

The fact that they are, in fact, unsupported is quite material. If you disagree with this, offer some support other than what you feel is logical. In other words, offer a rule. The rules as quoted throughout this thread support only one conclusion, logical or not: if you have a prerequisite feat, you qualify for the relevant PrC, whether or not you can currently use that feat.

In some cases, as some [like [MENTION=78958]Empirate[/MENTION] ] have pointed out, that is logical. In some cases, as you have pointed out, it is not.

However, in any case, those are the rules.

Here is one more thought. Say you had a ring that granted the following ability: "While you wear this ring, you are treated as having the Power Attack feat for purposes of qualifying for PrCs. However, while wearing this ring, you may not use the Power Attack feat, whether or not you have taken it and regardless of your strength." Seems to me this would work for certain, regardless of logic. Seems to me the RAW are analogous to this for PrC feat prerequisites.


----------

