# Skill Check with Dicerning



## DonTadow (Jun 1, 2005)

I"ve been really having believablity problems with dicerning concerning evoke spells.  I want to impose a 5+ half mp concentration check when it comes to dicerning spells in a busy place.  Is this fare? Is there something i"m missing?


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## Kemrain (Jun 2, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I"ve been really having believablity problems with dicerning concerning evoke spells.  I want to impose a 5+ half mp concentration check when it comes to dicerning spells in a busy place.  Is this fare? Is there something i"m missing?



 Why do you feel the need to do this?

- Kemrain the Confused.


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## DonTadow (Jun 2, 2005)

I've just been going over various spells and rules in the phb and casting an area spell with others around and the chance of them being hit as well.  With the Eom and Dicerning, I imagine rays and spells wizzing around team mates and hitting its target.  It seems to be able to do this, a spellcaster would have to concentrate a bit more.  In the PHB, an area is effected regardless and there is no way to dicern friends and foes.  Dicern makes some spells a LOT more powerful than equivielent spells in the PHB.  

My thoughts was a concentration check of 10 plus the half the spell power may balance it out a bit.  Any thoughts?


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## Thomas5251212 (Jun 4, 2005)

There are several "discerning" spells in the PHB; they just are often high level.  But for an example of a lower level one, look at Slow.


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## Verequus (Jun 4, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Discern makes some spells a LOT more powerful than equivielent spells in the PHB.




Discern isn't really as powerful as you think, if you consider that EoMR spells are weaker as the core equivalents - or need more MP for the same effect as the spell-level-to-MP-conversion would give. Example (although with a broken core spell): Storm of Vegeance is 9th level and would be considered as a 17 MP spell, but with a faithful conversion one ends up with a 33 MP spell. You aren't going to cast such a spell soon - and then you have to pay 1 MP extra for the discerning enhancement, either reducing the power or increasing the cost further. I don't see really the need for such a house rule.


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## DonTadow (Jun 4, 2005)

I see what you're saying.  But there are very few dicerning evoke spells in the phb.


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## Verequus (Jun 4, 2005)

This isn't really good reasoning, IMO. In this vein, you could prevent/hamper Lavaballs, Earthballs and Voidballs, because in the core rules is only Fireball and no Iceball. EoMR uses a new paradigma for spells and we see in this other thread (More powerful spells at first level?), that this requires some changes in actual game play.

Another point, you are overlooking is, that Discerning allows only to include people, but not to exclude people directly: If you want to make sure that a fireball doesn't hurt your friends, then you can only choose a limited number of enemies, which get hurt - thus your perceived effect isn't as big as you think.


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## Thomas5251212 (Jun 4, 2005)

I have to agree with RuleMaster on this one; the fact a particular effect isn't used commonly in PHB spells (or even D20 spells in general) doesn't mean the system shouldn't provide it as an option.  If I have one generic complaint with  EoM its that there are spell concepts it currently doesn't duplicate well, usually from _lack_ of a modifier.  I can't see objecting to the fact the game actually supports spells like Horrid Wilting that do exist in the PHB.

Now its possible to argue that the modifier is too small, but it has to be able to explain some of the lower level spells that use this effect, and I'm not seeing some automatic balance thing that makes this bad with damage areas but okay with others.


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## DonTadow (Jun 4, 2005)

Thomas5251212 said:
			
		

> I have to agree with RuleMaster on this one; the fact a particular effect isn't used commonly in PHB spells (or even D20 spells in general) doesn't mean the system shouldn't provide it as an option.  If I have one generic complaint with  EoM its that there are spell concepts it currently doesn't duplicate well, usually from _lack_ of a modifier.  I can't see objecting to the fact the game actually supports spells like Horrid Wilting that do exist in the PHB.
> 
> Now its possible to argue that the modifier is too small, but it has to be able to explain some of the lower level spells that use this effect, and I'm not seeing some automatic balance thing that makes this bad with damage areas but okay with others.



Rule master and you made good points.  I like the effect.  I guess i'm looking at it and i have a gripe with how small it is to dicern.  I didnt want to tack on an extra point though as I like to keep the system as is, but I wondered was a concentration check on dicern spells really effect it all that much.  I would think that a person has to have a faire control over the type of spell before they start dicerning things.


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## Verequus (Jun 4, 2005)

Please don't view it as nitpicking, but I'd like to point out, that you are writing "discerning" always without the "s". Take the chance and make now your English teacher proud!


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## DonTadow (Jun 4, 2005)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Please don't view it as nitpicking, but I'd like to point out, that you are writing "discerning" always without the "s". Take the chance and make now your English teacher proud!



hehehe forget the english teacher i need to be making the university that I got my journalism degree at proud  

It's a common fact that journalists CAN'T spell.  HOnestly.  We're the only writing position that invented another profession (copywriting) soly to check our spelling and grammar.


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## Thomas5251212 (Jun 5, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Rule master and you made good points. I like the effect. I guess i'm looking at it and i have a gripe with how small it is to dicern. I didnt want to tack on an extra point though as I like to keep the system as is, but I wondered was a concentration check on dicern spells really effect it all that much. I would think that a person has to have a faire control over the type of spell before they start dicerning things.




But this assumes the person is doing anything particularly active in the process; my buess would be from the way they're classically handled its more like "here are the auras to effect (or not effect), go to it!".  In other words, these are essentially "smart spells".


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## DonTadow (Jun 5, 2005)

Thomas5251212 said:
			
		

> But this assumes the person is doing anything particularly active in the process; my buess would be from the way they're classically handled its more like "here are the auras to effect (or not effect), go to it!".  In other words, these are essentially "smart spells".



ok that made me feel comfortable.  Thinking of it like that it makes more sense.  IN other words here are the auras' or souls to protect herea re the evil ones.  
thanks


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## astriemer (Jun 5, 2005)

Another thing to consider is, would forcing the caster make a concentration check really make that much of a difference. Many casters max out (or nearly so) their concentration checks just so they can get the spells off in combat in general. Take a 5th level caster casting a 5 MP spell. Your original proposal would require her to make a DC 7 concentration check. If she's maxed out her concentration, she can't fail the roll, thus the requirement is moot.


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