# Response to Woas about HARP



## Rasyr (Nov 14, 2004)

Woas said:
			
		

> Hey all. I don't want to hi-jack, but was wondering if anyone could either:



SO as to no hi-jack the thread, I am making my response over here in a new thread. I will take your questions in reverse order since the second one is really just a link to the HARP website.


			
				Woas said:
			
		

> 2) Give me a link to a site that explains HARP



The HAPR website can be found at http://www.harphq.com

On it you will find a number of downloads, including a 16 page character creation booklet, the entire combat chapter, and the majority of the chapter that contained the monsters (i.e. all the monsters are here, just not the rules/guidelines for encounters).


			
				Woas said:
			
		

> 1) Give me a breif discribtion on how HARP works (and thus, why it does "D&D" better than D&D) without breaking any laws and quoting the book outright.



As to why it "does D&D better than d20", I cannot answer that, as I did not make that claim. I was only repeating what somebody else had said. IIRC, that may have been Teflon Billy (but I could be wrong, so don't hold me to that statement).

As for a description of what HARP is and how it works, that I can do very well, and most assuredly without breaking any laws, as not only do I work for ICE, but I am also the guy who wrote HARP. 

HARP is descended from Rolemaster, a system that had unified resolution mechanics over 20 years ago. I have no idea if RM was the first to have such or not, nor do I make any claims to that effect. I am stating this, however, to show that  unified resolution mechanics are not a relatively new thing and to show where I came up with the mechanics for HARP.

One of the goals I had when writing HARP was to make it compatible with Rolemaster. Thus, I used the static manuever (SM) table and the moving maneuver (MM) tables as my starting points.  The SM table was a single column table with different degrees of success built into it based upon what the total roll was. This included giving a bonus to another skill. The MM table had a single column for each difficulty (Routine, Easy, Light, Medium, Hard, Very Hard, Extremely Hard, Sheer Folly, and Absurd). It was a somewhat complex table in that you would take the result and the roll against that to determine success or not (it could also be read other ways as well).

Well, for HARP, ICE wanted a lighter system than Rolemaster, something along the lines of an introductory system, especially since Rolemaster had such a stigma (things like chartmaster, rollmaster, etc..), even among those who had never played the system. At first I had thoughts about creating a Rolemaster Lite, at least until I realized that there was no easy way to do so. Therefore, I took a number of ideas and some of the core concepts from Rolemaster and reworked them from the ground up, and eventually ended up with what is now known as HARP.

HARP uses unified machanics as well. The most basic type of roll is the all-or-nothing roll. Roll and add your skill bonus and any difficulty mods (which are multiples of 20 -- Medium is  +0, Routine is +60 and Absurd is -100). A total roll of 101 or higher is a success. Almost all rolls in HARP can be handled using this method.

However, that did not leave a lot of room for variability, so I created the Maneuver Table to handle all other sorts of rolls. The maneuver table can, with slight squeezing, fit on a 3x5 index card. Not like the half and full page tables of Rolemaster.

This table has 4 columns labled as follows: Percentage, Bonus, RR, Utility. They are used in the following manner:

*Percentage* - This table is used for complex actions or actions that may take a long time (the GM determines the time increment based upon the type of action - picking a lock may take rounds, while crafting a sword may be measured in days, etc...). As with the all-or-nothing roll, you roll, add bonus, and apply the difficulty mod. The result given on the table determines what percentage of the task is complete.

*Bonus]* - This column is used for resolving skills or actions that may help or hinder (if fumbled) another action by the character (or even to another character). As before, roll, add skill bonus and difficulty mods, and look up the result. This result is either a bonus or penalty to the action it is attempting to aid. Most Lore skills fall under this column (such as using Lock Lore to aid in picking a lock you have never seen before).

*RR* - RR stands for Resistance Roll. This column is used to determine the effectiveness of a magical attack, a poison, or any other effect that may be resisted by a character. Roll, add all mods (skill & difficulty) and look up the result. This is the number that the character must roll above (using the appropriate skill) in order to resist the effect.

*Utility* - This column is used for non-attack spells. The better you roll when casting the better your result. Roll high enough (of course, adding in appropriate mods), and you can gain increased effects (increased range, # of targets, etc..). You can get double or even triple effect with a good enough roll.

*Combat* - Combat works slightly different from other skills. One of the assumptions in HARP is that you may actually hit your foe but not hard enough to do damage. Thus we decided to ignore this if it happened. To resolve combat, you roll, add in your skill bonus, and subtract foes defensive bonus (rather than difficulty). If the result is a positive number, then you have hit your foe hard enough to damage (thus a miss and a hit that is not hard enough to do damage are treated equally). At this point, after you have determined whether you hit or not, you THEN look up on the appropriate critical table what damage you have done.

Ok, so that tells how things are resolved, but tells little else about the game, so I will give a somewhat brief overview of the rest of the system. I will take it in the steps given for character creation....

1) Profession - the first thing to do is to decide what profession you want your character to be. HARP contains 11 basic professions. Each profession lables a number of skill categories (skills are divided into categories such as Athletic, Combat, Mystical Arts, Outdoors, Subterfuge, etc..) as Favored. What this means is that the skills within that category cost 2 development points for each skill rank purchased. Skills in Non-Favored categories cost 4 points per rank. 

Each profession also gives the character 20 free skill ranks, divided up among those favored categories. The player may use these on any skill within the category to which they are assigned. For example, a character may gain 6 ranks in the General Cateogry. He may place those 6 ranks in any combination of skills from that category. These free ranks represent the basic training that the character receives in his profession.

2) Stats - Players now determine their stats for their character. There are three different stat generation methods provided and the player is allowed to select whichever one they want (some GMs will tall players to only use a certain method, and this is quite alright if all agree to this before hand). Once stats are determined, the player figures out the stat bonuses (which are applied to skills), and how many Development Points (DPs) that they have (DPs are based on the 8 stats).  DPs are used to purchase skills, talents, stat increases, etc...

3) Race - The next step is for the player to select the race of their character. You have the standard fantasy tropes (elf, dwarf, halfling, human, gnome), plus one that replaces the venerable half-orc. My boss didn't like the  connotations of rape that are almost always implied with the half-orc, so I made a new race called the Gryx. The Gryx are fierce looking, but HARP has them as a relatively gentle race (and although they make excellent fighters, they prefer not to unless they have to. Of course a GM could make them warlike if he wanted.

One thing that HARP does not have is half-races. No Half-elves, no half-orcs. Instead, by spending a nominal 1 or 2 DPs, the character may acquire a Blood Talent. A 1 pt Blood Talent means that you are, at most 1/4 of another race, while the 2 pt version means that you are a half-breed between your base race and another race (and yes, you can have up to 2 lesser Blood Talents if you want).

4) Culture - The next step is to select your character's culture. each race has a default culture (often according to standard fantasy tropes), but the character is not limited to this. The player may, if he wishes, select another culture in its place (a character is only allowed to have one culture). Thus you could have a Dwarf from a Sylvan culture or an Elf from a Deep Warrens or Urban culture if you wanted. With the culture, the character gets his starting languages, and 20 free skill ranks divided among several different specific skills which represent the basic skills taught by the culture to its young.

5) Spending DPs - The final step is to purchase additional skills, talents, and/or a few other options to round out the character. A first level character starts out with double their base amount of DPs (and begins at 1st level). He may spend them on several things.

Stat increases - yup, you spend DPs to raise your stats. While this may increase your stats bonuses right away, any changes to your number of DPs do not go into effect until the next time you go up a level.

Skills - As mentioned above, skills cost either 2 or 4 DPs per rank. Some skills require that you select a specialty. This is often the Lore type of skills, however, you can choose how wide or narrow the specialty is. Other require a specific specialty (such as Riding, which requires a type of animal). Weapons, for example, are learned in groups (short blades, long blades, bows, crossbows, etc..), while the Resistance skills must be purchased separately for each type of resistance (Stamina, Will, and Magic). Spells (see below) are also learned individually (as skills). Your hits and Power points (used to cast spells) are also skills to be learned.

Talents - Talents are special abilities and such. Things like special one time bonuses, night vision, dark vision, etc...

Starting Options - there is a small list of things that a player may spend DPs for only at the time of character creation (like being a noble, or having a small magic item, etc..

Fate Points - these are points that are used to adjust die rolls. They can save a character if used wisely.

Spells - In HARP, spells are what is known as scalable and they also have no levels. Spells are divided into Spheres based upon profession, and only characters of that profession may learn spells from that Sphere, unless they have a talent that grants them access. The exception to this is the Universal Sphere. The Universal Sphere contains spells that ANY profession may learn if they wish to spend the development points to do so.

By scalable, I mean that the spell has a base form. At the time of casting, the character may spend extra power points (if he has enough skill ranks in the spell) to change some of the spell's parameters. This can include making the spell more powerful, making the spell have a greater range, or long duration, etc... Each spell has its own list of scaling options.

I hope that this answers your questions....


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## Crothian (Nov 14, 2004)

Telflon Billy did and does continue to say that.  He seems to really like the game.


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## Dinkeldog (Nov 14, 2004)

You didn't address my main concern with Rolemaster, which is it should really be called gimpmaster.  It's absolutely lethal to characters at every level, with a huge probability of losing limbs and/or being disemboweled by a housecat at nearly every turn.  Adding in the dearth of healing power available, and you have the primary reason I couldn't get anyone to play.  It's my second favorite game system, too.

So has HARP managed to minimize the maiming?


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## Rasyr (Nov 14, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> You didn't address my main concern with Rolemaster, which is it should really be called gimpmaster.  It's absolutely lethal to characters at every level, with a huge probability of losing limbs and/or being disemboweled by a housecat at nearly every turn.  Adding in the dearth of healing power available, and you have the primary reason I couldn't get anyone to play.  It's my second favorite game system, too.
> 
> So has HARP managed to minimize the maiming?




Yes, HARP is a lot less lethal than Rolemaster. You can visit the HARP website and look at the Combat Chapter which includes the Critical Tables to see for youself.

In Rolemaster, each critical table has 5 columns (lettered A - E) of increasing severity. This is not so in HARP. In HARP, there is but a single column for each type of critical. Also, the maximum that may be gotten on  the critical table is determined by the size of the weapon being used. Of course there are ways around this such as a natural 99 or 100 on your attack roll ignores the damage caps, or the use of a Combat Action like Power Attack to break the damage cap.

Each critical table also only has one instant death critical, and a couple of death in xx rounds.

As for dearth of healing magic, there are two spells in HARP that allow for healing (not including all the various healing herbs). One of those (the more powerful one) is part of the Cleric Sphere (see note about this below).

As I mentioned above, spells from the Universal Sphere may be learned by ANY character. Within the Universal Sphere is the second healing spell I mentioned, thus ANY character may have a healing spell available to him. At least for Minor Healing.

Cleric Sphere - as I mentioned before, the spells are divided into Spheres by profession. The Cleric is slightly different from other magic using professions.

First off, the Cleric gets to select two skill categories to be Favored categories. These selections are meant to reflect the nature of the deity that they worship. Selecting the Combat skill category makes the Cleric a Holy Warrior or Paladin for that deity.

Secondly, the Cleric also selects 20 spells to become his Clerical Sphere (and yes, Clerics of the same god may have different spells within their Sphere). 10 of those spells must come from the base Cleric Sphere, while the other 10 may come from anyplace else.

In the upcoming setting Cyradon, one of the things we will be doing is giving some presets for the different religions. In this case, we will give something like 15 of the spells for the Sphere for a given deity, and the player will select the remainder of his 20 from a short list of spells also provided. This will show a GM how he can set a similar thing up for his own world as well. (in fact, I may do a small pdf to show this and release it ahead of time).


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## Staffan (Nov 14, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> *Bonus* - This column is used for resolving skills or actions that may help or hinder (if fumbled) another action by the character (or even to another character). As before, roll, add skill bonus and difficulty mods, and look up the result. This result is either a bonus or penalty to the action it is attempting to aid. Most Lore skills fall under this column (such as using Lock Lore to aid in picking a lock you have never seen before).



The problem with this is the penalty thing. I can concede the point that "knowing" wrong things about something makes it harder (e.g. you mistake the Darunian lock you're picking for a Karythian one, so you use the wrong techniques), but there ought to be a pretty big "no adjustment" buffer. I don't have the book in front of me, but as I recall, the bonus column is basically "round down to the nearest lower multiple of 10 and subtract 100" - so if your thief rolled 83 on his Lock Lore roll, he'd get -20 on his Pick Lock skill. IMO, there should be at least 50 percentiles of "no modifier", so you'd need a really crappy roll in order to get a penalty.


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## Rasyr (Nov 14, 2004)

If the thief rolled a total of 83 (after mods), then he would have failed the Lock Lore roll to begin with. This could mean that he either doesn't know anything, or that he is misremembering the information, which could make it more difficult to pick the lock

Here is a copy of the maneuver table (it is also available in one of the revision PDFs on the HARP website).

```
Maneuver Results	Spell Results
Total Roll	Percentage	Bonus	RR	Utility
(-51) Down	Fail		-70	Fail	Fail
(-50) - (-31)	Fail		-65	Fail	Fail
(-30) - (-10)	Fail		-60	Fail	Fail
(-10) - (-01)	Fail 		-55	Fail	Fail
0 - 10		Fumble*		-50	Fumble*	Fumble*
11 - 20		10		-45	65	Fail
21 - 30		20		-40	70	Fail
31 - 40		30		-35	75	Fail
41 - 50		40		-30	80	Fail
51 - 60		50		-25	85	Fail
61 - 70		60		-20	90	Fail
71 - 80		70		-15	95	Normal
81 - 90		80		-10	100	Normal
91 - 100	90		-5	110	Normal
101 - 110	100		+5	120	Normal
111 -130	110		+10	130	Normal 
131 - 150	120		+20	140	Normal
151 - 170	130		+30	160	Double 
171 - 200	140		+40	180	Double
201 - 230	150		+50	200	Double x2
231 - 260	160		+60	220	Double x2
261 - 300	170		+70	240	Triple 
301+		180		+80	260	Triple
```

If you would like a bit where the character gets no bonus or penalty, you can easily adjust the table like so:

```
Maneuver Results	Spell Results
Total Roll	Percentage	Bonus	RR	Utility
(-51) Down	Fail		-50	Fail	Fail
(-50) - (-31)	Fail		-45	Fail	Fail
(-30) - (-10)	Fail		-40	Fail	Fail
(-10) - (-01)	Fail 		-35	Fail	Fail
0 - 10		Fumble*		-30	Fumble*	Fumble*
11 - 20		10		-25	65	Fail
21 - 30		20		-20	70	Fail
31 - 40		30		-15	75	Fail
41 - 50		40		-10	80	Fail
51 - 60		50		-5	85	Fail
61 - 70		60		0	90	Fail
71 - 80		70		0	95	Normal
81 - 90		80		0	100	Normal
91 - 100	90		0	110	Normal
101 - 110	100		+5	120	Normal
111 -130	110		+10	130	Normal 
131 - 150	120		+20	140	Normal
151 - 170	130		+30	160	Double 
171 - 200	140		+40	180	Double
201 - 230	150		+50	200	Double x2
231 - 260	160		+60	220	Double x2
261 - 300	170		+70	240	Triple 
301+		180		+80	260	Triple
```

HARP is very flexible in this manner. You *can* change things to suit your style of play, and your preferences without hassle, and without having to check umpteen different things to see if it affects it as well.


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## Woas (Nov 14, 2004)

Rasyr,

_*Totally awesome.*_ Thank you for writing that up for me. It answered questions I didn't even know I had. I'm reading the Revised rules on the HARP site now as well.

Again, Thanks a bunch!


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## Crothian (Nov 14, 2004)

Rasyr has proven to really be a good guy and very helpful.  I think he is the only non d20 publisher to hang out and answer questions on the biggest d20 message board.  He's gotten a lot of negative comments towards him because it is non d20 on this d20 board, but he has been a class act and always helpful.  Thanks Rasyr!!


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## Wolf72 (Nov 14, 2004)

I have fond memories of my brother DMing and using ICE's Arms Law/Claw Law ...

we doubled the hit points (so it would look like 15(30)) ... and had a blast.  I think he put a cap on what crit levels the bad guys could do (we were the heroes) ... so we didn't die a lot ... but combat was spectacular.

heck, even using the crit tables for 3x crits would be fun ... and deadly (but I like rolling up new characters on the fly).

the heavy crossbow was just downright destructive.


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## Rasyr (Nov 14, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Rasyr has proven to really be a good guy and very helpful.  I think he is the only non d20 publisher to hang out and answer questions on the biggest d20 message board.  He's gotten a lot of negative comments towards him because it is non d20 on this d20 board, but he has been a class act and always helpful.  Thanks Rasyr!!




Awww... your gonna make me blush!


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## Rasyr (Nov 14, 2004)

Woas said:
			
		

> _*Totally awesome.*_ Thank you for writing that up for me. It answered questions I didn't even know I had. I'm reading the Revised rules on the HARP site now as well.
> 
> Again, Thanks a bunch!




Glad to answer any questions!


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## Numion (Nov 14, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> HARP is very flexible in this manner. You *can* change things to suit your style of play, and your preferences without hassle, and without having to check umpteen different things to see if it affects it as well.




This is usually used as a knock against d20 (and probably why Rasyr mentioned it), but is changing a chart really something you couldn't do in D&D? Usually the argument goes in the way that you can't remove AoOs from D&D, not that you couldn't alter .. a few numbers on a chart. So, how does this make harp special? 

Now, it might also be that you could remove whole mechanics from Harp, but a single modified chart isn't a very good example. 

I do agree though that Rasyr is a class act nowadays, that his venom for monte cook has somewhat lost its potency


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## Rasyr (Nov 14, 2004)

Numion said:
			
		

> This is usually used as a knock against d20 (and probably why Rasyr mentioned it), but is changing a chart really something you couldn't do in D&D? Usually the argument goes in the way that you can't remove AoOs from D&D, not that you couldn't alter .. a few numbers on a chart. So, how does this make harp special?



In designing HARP, one of my overt goals was to create an extremely flexible game. This is not a knock against d20 at all on my part. I mention HARP flexibility because that is one of the best features of HARP, IMO.

For example, you want to Rolemaster's magic system, it is a straight swap for HARP's magic system. You could even use the two side-by-side if you want.

There is a fellow on the ICE forums who is using HARP in Forgotten Realms. However, he wanted to keep the FR spells, so he did. He created a single skill per type of spell, and then allowed the learning of one spell for each rank (or something like this) and is using the spells straight from FR in his HARP game.

He also decided to do an alternate damage system. In this, he uses different size dice for damage (since HARP damage is partially determined by the weapon's size). He has also instituted multiple damage dice depending on how well the attack was. For example, if a small attack uses a d8, then a final result of 83 on the attack roll would result in 4d8 worth of damage. With every ten points of damage also inflicting one round of stun on the foe (who is able to attempt to resist being stunned). He has a few more rules to go along with this as well. But the point is that making changes to HARP is relatively easy.


			
				Numion said:
			
		

> Now, it might also be that you could remove whole mechanics from Harp, but a single modified chart isn't a very good example.



How about level-less? or profession-less? The Guild Companion has two articles this month about just that.
Level-less (written by me) - http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2004/nov/irregularprogression.html

Profession-less (written by Nick Caldwell, who authored College of Magics, and is currently writing a sci-fi version of HARP) --  http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2004/nov/professionlessharp.html

I am also working on an article for the Guild Companion about using HARP in a completely table-less manner. Using the standard all-or-nothing resolution to allow for the different types of rolls as well. 


			
				Numion said:
			
		

> I do agree though that Rasyr is a class act nowadays, that his venom for monte cook has somewhat lost its potency



Not really, I just have bit more self control now.


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## Acid_crash (Nov 15, 2004)

With all the downloads on the website, could we actually start playing the game with just those?  

That's my question...I really like what your saying about the game, too bad the folks at WotC don't use similar things (like profession, upbringing stuff or cultural templates, etc.) in D&D.


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## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

as long as you didn't include spells, yeah you could almost play with the downloads on the website... hehe

And the supplement, College of Magics even includes official rules for creating new spells...


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## Acid_crash (Nov 15, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> as long as you didn't include spells, yeah you could almost play with the downloads on the website... hehe
> 
> And the supplement, College of Magics even includes official rules for creating new spells...




  How does the spell system work then?  

To bad this isn't OGL, I think it would be cool if another game system went open like d20 is.


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## dvvega (Nov 15, 2004)

Acid_crash: actually WOTC did allow for all of those things, however they didn't spell it out for you.

A cultural template or a profession could very easily be modelled using the creature-template system. In this case they would be +0 ECL unless you started giving feats out by the fistful, with skills and ranks in those skills.

So you could rule that a d20 character gets two templates slapped onto them at the start (cultural and professional).

Rasyr: a simplified Rolemaster was employed for the old Middle-Earth Roleplaying game. Did you use any of that as inspiration? I must say the magic system was still cumbersome, but criticals and so forth were simplified.


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## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

dvvega said:
			
		

> Rasyr: a simplified Rolemaster was employed for the old Middle-Earth Roleplaying game. Did you use any of that as inspiration? I must say the magic system was still cumbersome, but criticals and so forth were simplified.




No, while I have a number of MERP modules (fantastic modules, and useful in almost any setting), I have never owned nor read the MERP rules, though I have been told that there are some similarities between the two.


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## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> How does the spell system work then?



Ok, first of all, spells are divided into Spheres (each profession has its own Sphere), and each Sphere is a list of individual spells that a character may learn.

Each spell is then learned as if it were a skill. With the character purchasing ranks in it. In order to cast a spell, the character must have enough power points (PP) available, and must have enough ranks in the spell.

A character may only put an amount of power points into a spell equal to the number of ranks he has. For example, a Mage wants to cast an Elemental Bolt of Fire (Firebolt). The base form of this spell does a Tiny Fire Critical, and has a range of 100' for a cost of 4 power points.

This means that the character needs a minimum of 4 skill ranks in the spell to be able to cast it. The character may scale up the size of the critical by paying an additional 2 PP per size increase. He may also scale it up in terms of range by an additional 50' for every additional 1 PP. 

At first level, a character may have a maximum of 6 ranks in any given skill, so a Mage could cast the Firebolt a total of 200' and do a Tiny Fire Critical, or cast it 100' and do a Small Fire Critical.

There is a catch though. For every power point above the base cost of the spell, the mage receives a -5 to his casting roll. Thus both scaled up examples listed above are at -10 to cast.

So, if maxed out on skill ranks, and the character had a +5 bonus for both the related stats, this would give him a total bonus of 40 for casting the spell, or 30 if casting either of the scaled up options listed above. If the mage wanted to do a Tiny Fire Critical, and only give it a range of 150', then this would cost him 5 PP total, and give him a casting bonus of 35 for this spell.

In HARP, mages can also wear armor, however, the wearing of armor hampers the casting of spells, and thus requires that the caster expend more power points when casting a spell. If our Mage is wearing soft leather armor (which give a +20 to their defensive bonus), this would also require that all spells cost an extra 2 PP. In this case, the Mage would not be able to scale up the spell while wearing armor since to cast the base form would cost 6 PP (and thus require a minimum of 6 ranks in the spell). And yes, his casting bonus would be 30 while wearing the armor since it is 2 PP above the base cost of the spell.

I hope that makes sense.



			
				Acid_crash said:
			
		

> To bad this isn't OGL, I think it would be cool if another game system went open like d20 is.




Several other systems have, including the Action! system. However, I personally feel that WotC was the only company (except perhaps White Wolf maybe) who had the customer base to support such a move.

Any other company that released their systems under the OGL is going to find that doing so will draw off some of their own customers without enough of a return to make it worthwhile. And since most rpg companies are already struggling (do to decreased distributor sales - which are down across the board), doing so is not really feasible. 

Now, ICE has no plans on releasing HARP under the OGL. However, ICE is very willing to license the system, at what I think are very reasonable rates, and to work with licensors so that doing so does not strap them. In fact, ICE has already received several requests regarding licensing of HARP, which is very cool, I think.


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## Acid_crash (Nov 15, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Ok, first of all, spells are divided into Spheres (each profession has its own Sphere), and each Sphere is a list of individual spells that a character may learn.
> 
> Each spell is then learned as if it were a skill. With the character purchasing ranks in it. In order to cast a spell, the character must have enough power points (PP) available, and must have enough ranks in the spell.
> 
> ...




I really like that magic system, definately seems more streamlined and customizable to how the player wants his spells cast.  Now, why can't the spells be put onto the website?  huh?   

You want to know what really burns me up, I have a pretty cool FLGS with the exception to special orders for books.  For some reason, whenever I try to get a book special ordered (like HARP or Savage Worlds), the person who does the ordering always says they can't do it (I think he is really lazy and just doesn't want to) but I don't have any other means of getting these other games that aren't as well known.  Sorry for the Rant!



> Several other systems have, including the Action! system. However, I personally feel that WotC was the only company (except perhaps White Wolf maybe) who had the customer base to support such a move.
> 
> Any other company that released their systems under the OGL is going to find that doing so will draw off some of their own customers without enough of a return to make it worthwhile. And since most rpg companies are already struggling (do to decreased distributor sales - which are down across the board), doing so is not really feasible.
> 
> Now, ICE has no plans on releasing HARP under the OGL. However, ICE is very willing to license the system, at what I think are very reasonable rates, and to work with licensors so that doing so does not strap them. In fact, ICE has already received several requests regarding licensing of HARP, which is very cool, I think.




I think that is really cool also.  

How well would Eberron be translated into HARP?  How easy would it be to convert the new Eberron races to HARP mechanics?  If it can do that, because I really like Eberron, then I think HARP would be my system of choice (but I have to go download what is available and someday buy the book).


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 15, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Telflon Billy did and does continue to say that.  He seems to really like the game.




Yer darn tootin' 

I think the character generation rules for HARP are some of the nicest I have ever come across. They are amazingly flexible and manage to provide a _lot_ of options for PC's without succumbing to the Power Creep I find prevalent when a great number of D20 supplements are added to Core D&D in an effort to increase PC uniqueness.

The Magic system, while still very mechanical in nature, provides a very "tweakable" set of tools for the game.

I, like Dinkeldog, was worried about the lethality of HARP's predecessor, but while the rules maintain alot of the "gore" that I associate with Rolemaster, there preponderence of healing (and make no mistake: more so even than in D&D _a PC Party needs a healer_) tends to minimize the "Gimpmaster" elements I was expecting.

I am curretnly running two games, one for a group of 12-year old girls and one for a group of adult newbs with background in film.

Neither has had any trouble understanding the rules, nor have they presented me with any concepts or actions that weren't relatively easy to model with the core book.

I recently gave my second copy of HARP to Colonel Hardisson, who will be reviewing it shortly (he is equally impressed)


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> I really like that magic system, definately seems more streamlined and customizable to how the player wants his spells cast.  Now, why can't the spells be put onto the website?  huh?



heheh.... 
Now, ICE does have a PDF version of HARP (no DRM for those who are interested) for sale for on $10. You might want to check that out.


			
				Acid_crash said:
			
		

> You want to know what really burns me up, I have a pretty cool FLGS with the exception to special orders for books.  For some reason, whenever I try to get a book special ordered (like HARP or Savage Worlds), the person who does the ordering always says they can't do it (I think he is really lazy and just doesn't want to) but I don't have any other means of getting these other games that aren't as well known.  Sorry for the Rant!



Well, part of it is, I am sure, the distributor which the LGS deals with, at least in some cases. For example, the largest distributor is Alliance, and they (due to personal reasons of one VP) refuse to carry any ICE products. They even refuse to carry ICE through a third party (such as Osseum). Thus, if it isn't something that Alliance doesn't carry, the store cannot carry it.

There are some stores who refuse to even deal with more than one distributor because it would be too much of a "hassle" for them to do so. Granted, some distributors base their discounts on the total value of the order the LGS places, so some of it may be economically motivated on the part of the store.

As for book stores, ugh! Working with book store chains is often very bad for a company. Remember, most publishers don't get paid for several weeks after they ship books to the distributors. With book stores, you have this same problem, and then you have returns (which they insist on having) which makes accounting a nightmare. 


			
				Acid_crash said:
			
		

> How well would Eberron be translated into HARP?  How easy would it be to convert the new Eberron races to HARP mechanics?  If it can do that, because I really like Eberron, then I think HARP would be my system of choice (but I have to go download what is available and someday buy the book).



Well, I have not looked at Eberron, so I cannot say offhand, however, I can give some general race creation guidelines.

*Stat Bonuses* - these normally fall between 8 and 11 points total, split among the eight stats. Humans only have 8, but get the flexibility to place those in any stat they like. Most of the other races have 11 points. For Cyradon, the setting that I am currently working on (rewriting and editing phase), we have as a PC race Gryphons. They get a minus to one stat, and that minus is figured in with the rest of their stats and give them a total of 11 points to the positive side divided among their stats.

*Endurance and Power Point Bonuses* - For all PC races, this is 60 points, divided between the two.

*RR Bonuses* - This is 30 points, divided among the three RR types for all PC races.

*Racial Abilities* - Each race gets three, and only three racial abilities. There is no point limitations or anything like this here, so this is where you need to be careful. As a general rule, look at the abilities given to the standard races to give you an idea of the power level of the abilities.

Cultures are even easier to define/design, at least for the mechanics.

Each culture gets 2 starting languages (and the same number of ranks in each language). Each culture also get 20 skill ranks divided among individual skills. The Adolescent Skill Ranks table in HARP only has those skills in which the default cultures have ranks. So you do not have to limit your cultures to those specific skills. Just remember that no character may have more than 6 ranks in any given skill at first level, so do not give more than that to any one skill (though I would recommend a max of 3 ranks in any one skill, except for special situations).

You could always come over to the ICE forums, and check out the thread where they are discussing converting Forgotten Realms over to HARP for ideas on how to proceed as well. Plus the players over there would be more than willing to offer lots of advice as well.


----------



## haiiro (Nov 15, 2004)

I'm intrigued by this description of HARP's mechanics -- thanks, Rasyr. 

Incidentally, the HARPHQ website lists the ltd. edition hardcover rulebook as being available in October, but as also a pre-order. What's the status on this item?


----------



## Krieg (Nov 15, 2004)

Hey Tim while you're here, any possibility we can get an ETA for the limited edition hardback?

Thanks!


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

haiiro said:
			
		

> I'm intrigued by this description of HARP's mechanics -- thanks, Rasyr.



de nada!


			
				haiiro said:
			
		

> Incidentally, the HARPHQ website lists the ltd. edition hardcover rulebook as being available in October, but as also a pre-order. What's the status on this item?



That is a bit of a sore point. hehe 

ICE sent this book to the printer back in May! We have yet to see anything from this printer, although they were paid back when we sent it to them. The boss has not gotten any information out of them other than it will be done soon (they keep giving us delivery dates and then continually miss them). The boss won't even tell me who the printer is (other than they are in the mid-west someplace) cause he is afraid I would go on an rampage against them (or that I might let it slip to our customers who would do the same thing - hehe). 

Just the latest in a long line of printer-related nightmares this year....

I will most definitely be extremely glad when we get our own in-house printing system (due to be delivered within a month) so that we won't have to deal with printers (except for special things like maps and such) anymore. It will also allow us to almost instantly be able to update books with corrected errata and such as we find and fix it.

And the bindings on books done with this system are fabulous. They sent us some samples, and I abused them as much as I could, and could not break the binding. I was impressed to say the least.


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

Krieg said:
			
		

> Hey Tim while you're here, any possibility we can get an ETA for the limited edition hardback?




At this moment, no. Bruce (my boss) called the printer right before he left town last week (had to go help with his Brother-in-law's estate), and had not heard back from them before he left. Hopefully he heard something while away (he took his cell-phone with him). Hopefully, he will have some news tomorrow when he is back in the office.


----------



## Krieg (Nov 15, 2004)

That is so weird, I didn't notice haiiro asking virtually the same question right before I did. LOL

Thanks for giving what info you could!


----------



## Acid_crash (Nov 15, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> heheh....
> Now, ICE does have a PDF version of HARP (no DRM for those who are interested) for sale for on $10. You might want to check that out.




Well, I'll pass for now cuz I don't use credit cards or debit cards, but how does ICE work with people and money orders?



> Well, part of it is, I am sure, the distributor which the LGS deals with, at least in some cases. For example, the largest distributor is Alliance, and they (due to personal reasons of one VP) refuse to carry any ICE products. They even refuse to carry ICE through a third party (such as Osseum). Thus, if it isn't something that Alliance doesn't carry, the store cannot carry it.



That sucks!  You are losing sells because of a personal grudge because of a VP.  Talk about pathetic.  

My store uses just Alliance for the majority of their stuff, and that does explain why they can't get it.



> You could always come over to the ICE forums, and check out the thread where they are discussing converting Forgotten Realms over to HARP for ideas on how to proceed as well. Plus the players over there would be more than willing to offer lots of advice as well.




I'll check into that, thanks for all the information you have given.  I do like HARP, someday I shall have to get a hard copy of it.


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Well, I'll pass for now cuz I don't use credit cards or debit cards, but how does ICE work with people and money orders?



We accept Paypal as well, if you use that (and it works from bank accounts as well as credit cards). Just email customer service to get things rolling and Lori (my wife) will take care of you.

And money orders are not a problem. We often get orders from folks who are, shall we say, freedomly challenged. They send in their order via snail mail and we usually ship it out within 3-5 days of receiving it.

We are very flexible.


----------



## haiiro (Nov 15, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> That is a bit of a sore point. hehe




Ah well -- "coming eventually" is better than "scrapped."


----------



## Acid_crash (Nov 15, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> We accept Paypal as well, if you use that (and it works from bank accounts as well as credit cards). Just email customer service to get things rolling and Lori (my wife) will take care of you.
> 
> And money orders are not a problem. We often get orders from folks who are, shall we say, freedomly challenged. They send in their order via snail mail and we usually ship it out within 3-5 days of receiving it.
> 
> We are very flexible.




Freedomly challenged...  lol    that's definately me then.  

All I can do is a money order, and I am sure I am not alone in this regard being freedomly challenged, so what details can you give me so I can set up a money order to get this product?  

I downloaded all the info from the website I could, but I will definately want to buy the book as well.


----------



## Citizen Mane (Nov 15, 2004)

I apologize if I'm assuming too much here or misreading the thread, but, based on your previous posts about an FLGS, Acid_crash, I'm not sure you're as freedomly-challenged as the people Rasyr's talking about, unless you, too, are in prison.  Just throwing this out there.  

Nick


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## Particle_Man (Nov 15, 2004)

The link for info on paying ice via paypal is not in their regular site, but through customer service, http://www.ironcrown.com/customerservice.htm

When I tried to click on paypal through the regular site, I just looped through to the same site.  I used the internal search engine on "paypal" to get the info I needed.  I thought I would post a link here to save time for others.

I just purchased the pdf of the value pack one of Harp, so soon I will see how well it suits my needs.  I might use the spell stuff for another system, but we shall see (if both HARP and Castles and Crusades are "house rule flexible", then a hybrid should be no problem at all, right?    ).


----------



## Acid_crash (Nov 15, 2004)

Kajamba Lion said:
			
		

> I apologize if I'm assuming too much here or misreading the thread, but, based on your previous posts about an FLGS, Acid_crash, I'm not sure you're as freedomly-challenged as the people Rasyr's talking about, unless you, too, are in prison.  Just throwing this out there.
> 
> Nick




In that regard, I am in the middle then.    I avoid credit cards and things like that to avoid making dumb financial mistakes with them.  But prison, I am not in.

I just looked through a couple downloads, this is some cool stuff in here.


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## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Freedomly challenged...  lol    that's definately me then.
> 
> All I can do is a money order, and I am sure I am not alone in this regard being freedomly challenged, so what details can you give me so I can set up a money order to get this product?
> 
> I downloaded all the info from the website I could, but I will definately want to buy the book as well.



Simple, get a money order for the price of the book, plus shipping (Priority Mail is $4) and mail that, along with a letter telling us what you are wanting to order to 

Iron Crown Enterprises
112 Goodman St.
Charlottesville, Va. 22902

Aslo, if you have any old d20 books that you no long need or want, if you include $30 worth of d20 books with the order, you can get $15 dollars off the price of the book. These can be any book that has the d20 logo on them. Perhaps something you purchased that was not as good as you thought it would be, or something that you used once and are no long planning on using again, etc..


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

Kajamba Lion - yes, you understood what I meant by freedomly challenged. 

Particle Man - I don't see why a hybrid would not be possible.

Acid_crash - Thanks!


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> How well would Eberron be translated into HARP?  How easy would it be to convert the new Eberron races to HARP mechanics?  If it can do that, because I really like Eberron, then I think HARP would be my system of choice (but I have to go download what is available and someday buy the book).




Acid_crash, I have gone ahead and started a thread on the ICE forums for you, asking if anybody has converted anything from Eberron to HARP. You can find the thread here::--> http://www.ironcrown.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5527

Enjoy!


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## Akrasia (Nov 15, 2004)

Rasyr,

Is ICE still running that "$30-of-d20-stuff-for-discount-on-HARP" program?

I have some crap I'd be happy to unload for an inexpensive copy.

And how compatible with old Rolemaster (2ed) materials -- especially campaign settings and adventures -- is HARP?

Thanks!


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 15, 2004)

Akrasia said:
			
		

> Is ICE still running that "$30-of-d20-stuff-for-discount-on-HARP" program?



Yes. You send ICe $30 worth of product that has the d20 logo on it, and get a $15 discount/refund on your purchase of the core HARP rules (soft back).


			
				Akrasia said:
			
		

> I have some crap I'd be happy to unload for an inexpensive copy.



Unload away! 


			
				Akrasia said:
			
		

> And how compatible with old Rolemaster (2ed) materials -- especially campaign settings and adventures -- is HARP?



Well, I haven't actually compared  RM2 stuff with HARP stats, you may have to give something like a blanket positive modifier to all RM2 stats to bring them in line with the average HARP numbers, but that would not be too difficult.

As for skills from RM2 - If you know what the skill does, just choose a resolution method and have at it. HARP uses the same skill rank progression as RM2 did, however, HARP allows more ranks overall at a given level than RM2 does (thus the suggestion for a blanket + modifier).

As for spells - you can pretty much use these beside HARP magic without alteration - the only real thing you have to decide is which of the HARP RRs it would fall under and that ought to be relatively easy (physical effects go under Stamina; mental effects under will, and anything else goes under Magic). Almost forgot, in RM2, you did not have a skill bonus for spells, so just give the character a number of ranks equal to the level to which they know the list, and use 2x their realm stat for the stat mods for the list. Treat each list as an individual skill.

As for RM2 AT - just convert that over to HARP DB according to the armor worn (requires a little judicious judgement call, but not a difficult one).


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 16, 2004)

Ok, I got the rules and have a few questions:

1) If a character is trying something (attacking with a weapon, casting a spell, climbing a cliff, etc.) and has enough bonuses (say great bonuses in an incredibly easy situation) that the character would succeed, but gets a natural roll in the fumble range (01, say), does that count as a success or a fumble?

2) With opposed skills, and one skill setting the RR, I get that the one setting the target number is applied through the RR chart, but is the other skill also run through that RR chart?  In the example given on p. 68, a character tries to sneak past a goblin.  The characters sneak roll is 127, which gets translated to 130 on the chart.  The goblin got a perception roll of 96.  Is this a "Bare" 96 or is it too translated on the RR chart, this time to 110?

3) a) What happens if there is a tie in RR rolls?  (Between two skills, or to resist poison, etc.)?  

Anyhow, just skimming through I like some parts (phantasms that don't disappear!  woohoo!), although I may tone down the fumbles and/or criticals in my game.  At first, it seemed that every fighter who lives long enough will, eventually, die by impaling himself on his own sword!  But it looks like a fighter, at worst, will only cause himself bleeding wounds, perhaps with some stunning, since a fumble can't lead to more than 100 on a crit table.  Still, it does seem nasty.

I like the GM advice section, though.


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 16, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> 1) If a character is trying something (attacking with a weapon, casting a spell, climbing a cliff, etc.) and has enough bonuses (say great bonuses in an incredibly easy situation) that the character would succeed, but gets a natural roll in the fumble range (01, say), does that count as a success or a fumble?



A fumble there is always a chance that even the most skilled character will mess up.


			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> 2) With opposed skills, and one skill setting the RR, I get that the one setting the target number is applied through the RR chart, but is the other skill also run through that RR chart?  In the example given on p. 68, a character tries to sneak past a goblin.  The characters sneak roll is 127, which gets translated to 130 on the chart.  The goblin got a perception roll of 96.  Is this a "Bare" 96 or is it too translated on the RR chart, this time to 110?



The first skill is rolled on the RR column, the number generated is what the second skill/roll must equal or beat. The second roll is NOT looked up on the table.


			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> 3) a) What happens if there is a tie in RR rolls?  (Between two skills, or to resist poison, etc.)?



The general guideline is that the defender's roll must meet or beat the number generated on the RR column, so using the above example, a total roll of 130 would mean that he resisted the effect.


			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Anyhow, just skimming through I like some parts (phantasms that don't disappear!  woohoo!), although I may tone down the fumbles and/or criticals in my game.  At first, it seemed that every fighter who lives long enough will, eventually, die by impaling himself on his own sword!  But it looks like a fighter, at worst, will only cause himself bleeding wounds, perhaps with some stunning, since a fumble can't lead to more than 100 on a crit table.  Still, it does seem nasty.



Well, considering that my father, who was an expert archer, once put an arrow through the palm of his hand, i would say that the fumbled could be considered as plausible...

So yes, fumbles can be nasty, but you are always free to tone them down. 


			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> I like the GM advice section, though.



Glad you liked it.


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 16, 2004)

Do racial stat mods (like a +2 bonus to Insight for an Elf) affect the stat itself (so a 90 becomes a 92), or the bonus it gives (so a 90 stays a 90 but a bonus of +8 becomes a bonus of +10)?  I think it is the latter, but if so, your example of the Elf Mage with one rank in PPD, Insight 90, and Self Discipline 90 (on page 42) should be 63, not 61, right?  Because the Insight 90 for elves would mean a +10 stat bonus instead of +8?  Or am I reading this wrong?


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 16, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Do racial stat mods (like a +2 bonus to Insight for an Elf) affect the stat itself (so a 90 becomes a 92), or the bonus it gives (so a 90 stays a 90 but a bonus of +8 becomes a bonus of +10)?  I think it is the latter, but if so, your example of the Elf Mage with one rank in PPD, Insight 90, and Self Discipline 90 (on page 42) should be 63, not 61, right?  Because the Insight 90 for elves would mean a +10 stat bonus instead of +8?  Or am I reading this wrong?



Correct, the racial stat bonus is added to the total stat bonus, not to the stat itself. As to the example, you are correct there as well, the example forgets about the racial bonus (oopsie!! -- I think you are the first person to catch that boo-boo).

So, in short, you are reading it correctly.


----------



## Numion (Nov 16, 2004)

I had to check HARP out too, now you've done it. At a first glance it seems very similar to RoleMaster, which is ok since that was my favourite game in early 90s even with the insane criticals and lethality. Harp seems much simples and focused though. 

I haven't read it all though, and I've only got one comment. I read the character generation part, and doesn't that make it really hard generating NPCs, or is there an easier method for them? Calculating development points each level and assigning them seems to be quite a lot of work for NPCs .. but as I said, I only glanced through the rules, and might've missed the right section. 



			
				Rasyr said:
			
		

> Well, considering that my father, who was an expert archer, once put an arrow through the palm of his hand, i would say that the fumbled could be considered as plausible.




Hopefully not to the tune of RuneQuest, where someone calculated that if an army of 10,000 went to war around 500 would kill themselves!


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## Cinderfall (Nov 16, 2004)

*Questions Questions*

It's nice to have someone to answer questions about HARP. I looked at the game awhile back, thought it was interesting but a bit complex.  More specifically I was looking at it from a GMs point of view.  But now that there's someone to ask......

How long/hard is NPC generation?

How easy are the rules to use "on the fly"?

How long is PC generation?

Are all the rules in one book?

How many stats do monsters need?

How much supplemental rules/background information are in HARP's future?

That's all I can think of right now.  Thanks in advance.


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 16, 2004)

Numion said:
			
		

> I had to check HARP out too, now you've done it.



Bwah-hah-hah! My evil nefarious scheme is working! 


			
				Numion said:
			
		

> At a first glance it seems very similar to RoleMaster, which is ok since that was my favourite game in early 90s even with the insane criticals and lethality. Harp seems much simples and focused though.



Compatibility with Rolemaster was one of the guidelines that I was working under when writing HARP. And since HARP shares several basic concepts and ancestry with RM, the similarities should not be too surprising. However there are enough differences that make HARP a unique (as in separate and individual) game rather than just a lite version of RM. 

Many of the basic concepts in RM were reworked from the ground up in designing HARP. This allowed me to strive for a tighter focus for the game overall. I am still in shock that I actually wrote the dang thing - I did the initial development, but thought we were going to hand it over to an established author. Imagine my surprise when asked how soon I could have a manuscript ready. 

Of course, my wife also tells me that if I ever get a swelled head from this, she has an aluminum baseball bat ready to deliver an attitude adjustment upside my head.... :\


			
				Numion said:
			
		

> I haven't read it all though, and I've only got one comment. I read the character generation part, and doesn't that make it really hard generating NPCs, or is there an easier method for them? Calculating development points each level and assigning them seems to be quite a lot of work for NPCs .. but as I said, I only glanced through the rules, and might've missed the right section.




Well, personally, I would only do that for very important NPCs. For less important NPCs, there are shortcuts such as the following:
1) Assign Stats
2) Assign max ranks to primary skills (about half a dozen)
3) Assign 2 ranks per level to secondary skills (about another half dozen)
4) Assign up to one rank per level to a few other skills to round him out (maybe another half dozen).
5) Assign any relative talents (total point value of about 5 DPs x level maximum - thus a 5th lvl NPC would have about 25 points worth of talents)

This may or may not make a legal character (DP point-wise) but it will allow for quick NPC generation (skipping any steps that you do not really need).

Additionally, there is an excel speradsheet available on the HARP website which would make this much easier, and we have a fellow working on a character generation program for HARP as well (which will hopefully have a built in NPC generator).


----------



## FCWesel (Nov 16, 2004)

Rasyr, thanks for the posts. As a long time MERP fan, never got into Rolemaster for some reason, I will now have to check this out. Thanks again.


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 16, 2004)

Cinderfall said:
			
		

> It's nice to have someone to answer questions about HARP. I looked at the game awhile back, thought it was interesting but a bit complex.  More specifically I was looking at it from a GMs point of view.  But now that there's someone to ask......



No problems! I am always willing to answer questions. 


			
				Cinderfall said:
			
		

> How long/hard is NPC generation?



See my post above regarding this (in response to Numion). But the method I use is realtively simple for non-important NPCs, so it does not take me very long.


			
				Cinderfall said:
			
		

> How easy are the rules to use "on the fly"?



Very Easy! As mentioned at some point in this thread, there are a few core types of resolution, that can be used to handle almost any situation on the fly.  Once you get used to them (and putting a copy of the maneuver table on an index card is really helpful), resolving situations on the fly is pretty much a snap.


			
				Cinderfall said:
			
		

> How long is PC generation?



As always (with ANY system), this will depend upon the individual person and how much effort they put into it. However, for a person who has a basic grasp of the rules, creating a first level character will likely take about 20-30 minutes on average. Personally, if I know what type of character I want to create beforehand, I can do a first level character in about 10-15 minutes (but then again, I have more than a basic grasp of the rules).


			
				Cinderfall said:
			
		

> Are all the rules in one book?



Everything needed to play is in the core book. Chargen, treasure, encounter tables, a basic list of monsters, spells, combat, etc.. 


			
				Cinderfall said:
			
		

> How many stats do monsters need?



Not quite sure what you are asking here, but you can actually see all the monsters in the HARP core book in a free PDF from the HARP website - http://www.harphq.com/webextras.htm 

Monsters in HARP are built just like characters (as Fighters, in fact). This means that a Kobold is a dangerous creature that can wipe out another first level character....


			
				Cinderfall said:
			
		

> How much supplemental rules/background information are in HARP's future?



Rules - not too much. We are striving to keep rules creep to a minimum, but there are still a few things that we would like to expand on. We currently have a Martial Arts product, a Dark Arts product, products with new spells, new monsters, etc.. planned. As for background, we have Cyradon in development for the default setting to be used by HARP. And we have a sci-fi version of HARP planned. We also have several liscences in the works as well, for other folks to product their own HARP products.


			
				Cinderfall said:
			
		

> That's all I can think of right now.  Thanks in advance.



No problem!!


----------



## der_kluge (Nov 16, 2004)

dvvega said:
			
		

> A cultural template or a profession could very easily be modelled using the creature-template system. In this case they would be +0 ECL unless you started giving feats out by the fistful, with skills and ranks in those skills.




Well, sort of.  In HARP, the races only have ability modifiers, endurance (hit point) modifiers, power point modifiers (for spellcasting), and resistance (saving throw) modifiers.  In D&D, races have these plus things like speak with burrowing mammal, favored weapons, exotic weapons, bonus feats, and other sundry things.  To create a cultural template in D&D, which I agree could be done, you'd first have to baseline all the races by removing the "cultural" aspects.  For example, it makes no sense that a gnome who lives in a populous city would learn to speak with prairie dogs.  Also, the races in D&D are unabalanced to one another - see also my thread titled "Dwarves rock, Orcs suck - an analysis".  I created a point system for the races based on their abilities, and dwarves numerically come out WAY ahead, and Orcs end up in the negative numbers.  In HARP, all the races are numerically equivalent, and all the cultural templates are numerically equivalent.  Furthermore, the numbers are right there in front of your face, so if you wanted to create a "grew up on the moon" cultural template, you know exactly how many points you need to balance it with the cultures in the book.  No guesswork - in D&D, you get arbitrary questions like "is darkvision really worth as much as a bonus feat?"  There is no debate in HARP - all of it has a point value.

It's why I love HARP.

And no, Rasyr isn't paying me on the side.


----------



## Acid_crash (Nov 16, 2004)

Rasyr, how does licensing HARP work with ICE?  I know it's not free, but I'm just wondering how ones gets to use it.  

Also, would it be possible for a person to write a setting or sourcebook and dual stat it using both HARP and d20/D&D stats, or is that against the rules?


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 16, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Rasyr, how does licensing HARP work with ICE?  I know it's not free, but I'm just wondering how ones gets to use it.
> 
> Also, would it be possible for a person to write a setting or sourcebook and dual stat it using both HARP and d20/D&D stats, or is that against the rules?




Really simple, just write us and tell us what you are wanting to do. We will then give you the licensing information (one of these days I need to find the time to write these up for posting on the website - hehe) and you make your decision on whether or not to use HARP.

Well, the OGL requires that you have the right to use any trademarks and/or logos you use, so if you had a license, then yes you could do dual stat. You would have to be very particular in your PI declaration so that you do not accidently drop anything of HARP into Open Content, but it would be doable.


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 16, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Additionally, there is an excel speradsheet available on the HARP website which would make this much easier, and we have a fellow working on a character generation program for HARP as well (which will hopefully have a built in NPC generator).




My Harp/Ice web-fu is weak.  Could you post a link directly to this character generation program?  And another to the Excel spreadsheet?  I take it the first is a random generator, and the second a way to make your character's points all add up?

Y'know, when I was a kid, I had Dragon #60 (if memory serves, which is always risky to assume, it had an article on half-elves accompanying the article on elves, and only the latter ever made it into the "Race" section of the appropriate Best of Dragon, vol. III (or was it vol. II?)), and in the back there was an advertisement for "Claw Law", which I think was part of the rolemaster deal, along with the then forthcoming "Spell Law", "Arms Law", and that adventure "The Iron Wind".  That was the first time I realized that there WERE other roleplaying games than D&D.    And now, over 20 years later, I own a package that has Harp (Rolemaster-lite), along with equivalents to Claw Law, Arms Law and Spell Law!  Huh!  All I need now is an equivalent to "The Iron Wind".  I don't know anything about that adventure, but the name is evocative.


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## Rasyr (Nov 16, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> My Harp/Ice web-fu is weak.  Could you post a link directly to this character generation program?  And another to the Excel spreadsheet?  I take it the first is a random generator, and the second a way to make your character's points all add up?



The character generation program is going to be a tool much like the program PCGen (take a look in the credits and you will see my name - hehe - I helped with some of the initial interface design). You will be able to make character just like you were doing it with paper and pencil. It has not been released yet (supposed to go beta at the end of the month). You can find a thread on the ICE forums about it here ---> http://www.ironcrown.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5352
The thread includes a number of screen shots from the guy making it.

The Excel sheet is also a character generator in its own right. Jonathon Dale did excellent work on it, and like the program above, can be used to fully generate characters. The latest version also has the additional information from the HARP supplements Martial Law, College of Magics, and IIRC Monsters: A Field Guide as well. You can find it here ---> http://www.harphq.com/charsheets.htm#autocalc

And right beneath it is an autocalculating PDF form as well (with FDF imports for races and cultures - Very Impressive!! (today was the first time I have seen this one - Wow!!)


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## Particle_Man (Nov 17, 2004)

*Quick Spell Question*

Aside from saving one power point, is there any reason to take the Conjure Animal spell as opposed to Conjure Creature spell?  Since all animals are creatures, wouldn't it be better to take the spell that can create both animals and other creatures?  Or is "creature" a technical term that does not incude animals?

(Just for fun, I am making an illusionist-thaumaturge type -- I don't know if I will get to play it anytime soon, but it gives me a chance to see how the system works).


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 17, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Aside from saving one power point, is there any reason to take the Conjure Animal spell as opposed to Conjure Creature spell?  Since all animals are creatures, wouldn't it be better to take the spell that can create both animals and other creatures?  Or is "creature" a technical term that does not incude animals?
> 
> (Just for fun, I am making an illusionist-thaumaturge type -- I don't know if I will get to play it anytime soon, but it gives me a chance to see how the system works).



In HARP, Animals are defined as those that can be found in the real world (deer, wolves, horses, etc..). 

Creatures on the other hand are those mythological and imaginary beasties that are included (Gryphons, hippogryphs, giant rats, giant spiders, giant ants, etc...). 

That illusionist/thaumaturge type sounds like a pretty cool character concept.

Note: In HARP the Thaumaturge is a spell user who concentrates on creating things (magic ites, faux beasties who inflict real damage, etc..)


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 17, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> In HARP, Animals are defined as those that can be found in the real world (deer, wolves, horses, etc..).
> 
> Creatures on the other hand are those mythological and imaginary beasties that are included (Gryphons, hippogryphs, giant rats, giant spiders, giant ants, etc...).




Ah, then the balance is that animals are easier to come across, and so easier to conjure up, whereas, if I have never seen a Gryphon, I can never conjure one.

Hmmm...I think I would rather ride a Gryphon or Hippogryph than a horse...  

And there's a motivation for adventuring right there, since I can only conjure up critters I have actually a) seen, and b) studied with that study target spell.  

The only other difference I can see is that, while Conjure Creature has a prohibition to this, Conjure Animal doesn't prevent me from conjuring specific-looking (albeit average statistics) animals, so that "It's the Duchess's prize toy poodle, Teddy!  How did he get here?" situations can arise.  Although a Phantasm could do that too, I don't have to maintain concentration on a conjuration if it is just on "follow last order" mode.


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 17, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Ah, then the balance is that animals are easier to come across, and so easier to conjure up, whereas, if I have never seen a Gryphon, I can never conjure one.



Yup, and you need to use the "Study Target" spell as well (meaning you have to come within contact with one...


			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Hmmm...I think I would rather ride a Gryphon or Hippogryph than a horse...



Well, in Cyradon (the upcoming setting for HARP), Gyrphons are not only sentient, but one of the PC races...    I doubt that they would let you ride one of them hehe


			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> And there's a motivation for adventuring right there, since I can only conjure up critters I have actually a) seen, and b) studied with that study target spell.



Correct!


			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> The only other difference I can see is that, while Conjure Creature has a prohibition to this, Conjure Animal doesn't prevent me from conjuring specific-looking (albeit average statistics) animals, so that "It's the Duchess's prize toy poodle, Teddy!  How did he get here?" situations can arise.  Although a Phantasm could do that too, I don't have to maintain concentration on a conjuration if it is just on "follow last order" mode.



Actually, the Conjure Animal spell should also have that bit as well (not a specific copy). Oopsie!


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 18, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> In HARP, Animals are defined as those that can be found in the real world (deer, wolves, horses, etc..).
> 
> Creatures on the other hand are those mythological and imaginary beasties that are included (Gryphons, hippogryphs, giant rats, giant spiders, giant ants, etc...).




On consideration, this seems a little odd to me.  I mean, in the real world we know the difference between animals and creatures by the simple fact that one type exists and the other doesn't.  But for a world in which both exist, how does the magic system "know" that a giant rat is a creature, as opposed to an animal?  I mean, it is not like the rat breathes fire or something obviously magical -- it is just a major annoyance, like a wolf would be.  I think a case can be made for merging Conjure Animal and Conjure Creature into one spell in a future edition of the College of Magic supplement.


----------



## Citizen Mane (Nov 18, 2004)

A sage or wizard with a predilection for taxonomy and zoology decided that was best when he developed the spells.  Perhaps rodents of unusual size weren't considered rodents.  Maybe giant variations of common animals are the result of magical experimentation (in which case, they're not natural animals, but created animals that happen to breed true).  Some thoughts.

Nick


----------



## Cinderfall (Nov 18, 2004)

*more questions*

How hard is it to kill someone with a dagger?

Could you describe the overall lethality of the combat system (with some examples)? 

Overall, how lethal and destructive is magic?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 18, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> On consideration, this seems a little odd to me.  I mean, in the real world we know the difference between animals and creatures by the simple fact that one type exists and the other doesn't.  But for a world in which both exist, how does the magic system "know" that a giant rat is a creature, as opposed to an animal?  I mean, it is not like the rat breathes fire or something obviously magical -- it is just a major annoyance, like a wolf would be.  I think a case can be made for merging Conjure Animal and Conjure Creature into one spell in a future edition of the College of Magic supplement.



Well, actually, I can see a case for the arguement that Giant versions of animals are treated like animals and not creatures. To me they are creatures and not animals.

In the end it does fall upon the GM and how he has his world set up, and how they are regarded in that world. As Kajamba_Lion puts forth, it could work as in his suggestion.


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 18, 2004)

Cinderfall said:
			
		

> How hard is it to kill someone with a dagger?



Well, that depends upon the skill of the person making the attack. Normally, the maximum result that a Dagger can receive on the critical table is a 90. However, there are Combat Actions (namely Power Strike) which will allow for breaking that Damage Cap, plus a natural 99 or 100 (which is within the open-ended range, so you will be rolling again and adding the second result) removes all Damage Caps from that one attack.

Then there is the Ambush skill, which allows you to adjust the ciritical you give to a foe (i.e. 10 ranks in the skill allows a +/-10 to the critical result).

In HARP, you can have an untrained person get a lucky strike and kill a foe in a single blow with a Dagger, however, it is important to note that this is a very unlikely event.


			
				Cinderfall said:
			
		

> Could you describe the overall lethality of the combat system (with some examples)?



Don't want much, do you?  

The criticals from the first printing of HARP were much more deadly than the current criticals (note: these are available as a free pdf from the HARP website). The current system relies more heavily upon beating your foe down, than though "death in xx rounds" or "instant death" criticals. The current critical tables have only 1 instant death critical on them, and you have to max out on the table to get that.

The big danger comes from the maneuver penalties (which will lower your ability to attack and perhaps defend), and the Stuns, which also hamper your abilities (no attacks, and all other actions at -50). Getting stunned is very bad!

Also the system presumes that your character will be putting at least some of his OB into DB (through parrying). This is one thing that it often takes folks a little bit to get used to....  

Not sure if this is what you wanted, or if you wanted an extended combat example (which I have somebody working on one so that we can post it as a free PDF - but am waiting on it to be completed).


			
				Cinderfall said:
			
		

> Overall, how lethal and destructive is magic?



Well, elemental attacks are resolved in much the same manner as melee or missile attacks are resolved. The foe gets their defensive bonus against the attack, and you look up the result on the appropriate critical table. The elemental attacks start out as Tiny attacks (max of 80 on the critical table) and may be scaled up as the mage gets more proficient with the spell. The elemental critical tables themselves do a little bit more damage than the other critical tables, but not a lot more, so they are approximately the equivalent.

We took care to make sure that mages could be on par with other professions in combat, and not be super combat monsters with just a few spells. Spells are divided into three categories, Utility (which may only be cast upon a willing target), Elemental (which is resolved like a missile attack) and Attack (foe gets a RR against the effects). 

How effective a character is in resisting Attack spells will vary, and is based on how many skill ranks the character has in the appropriate Resistance skill (yes, they can get skill ranks to increase resistance).


----------



## Staffan (Nov 18, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Well, elemental attacks are resolved in much the same manner as melee or missile attacks are resolved. The foe gets their defensive bonus against the attack, and you look up the result on the appropriate critical table. The elemental attacks start out as Tiny attacks (max of 80 on the critical table) and may be scaled up as the mage gets more proficient with the spell. The elemental critical tables themselves do a little bit more damage than the other critical tables, but not a lot more, so they are approximately the equivalent.



A thing I noted about elemental attacks: scaling them up seems rather pointless until you're really good at them. Sure, you get -20 OB for a Tiny attack, and only -10 OB for a Small attack... but since the Small attack costs 2 PP more, you get an additional -10 penalty, so the only difference is the cap (the result of a Small attack can't be over 90 on the table, a Tiny maxes out at 80) - a benefit, sure, but not that big of one. In addition, a Small elemental attack costs 6 PP, which means it takes 2 rounds to cast instead of 1.


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 18, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> A thing I noted about elemental attacks: scaling them up seems rather pointless until you're really good at them. Sure, you get -20 OB for a Tiny attack, and only -10 OB for a Small attack... but since the Small attack costs 2 PP more, you get an additional -10 penalty, so the only difference is the cap (the result of a Small attack can't be over 90 on the table, a Tiny maxes out at 80) - a benefit, sure, but not that big of one. In addition, a Small elemental attack costs 6 PP, which means it takes 2 rounds to cast instead of 1.




It is part of the way that the system is designed. The scaling options cost more PP, which in turn makes casting take longer and provide a negative modifier to casting. The rational being that the more power you attempt to manipulate, the harder it is going to be to cast the spell formed with that power.

So, yes, at lower levels (or skill bonus with the spell), using scaling options may not be as effective (depending on the dice roll) or as cost effective as not using them. That is something that the mage has to decide for himself at the time of casting. However, he DOES have the options available to him, which is one of the main things about the design of the magic system.

The whole point of the magic system is to be flexible and to give the mage the options. Nobody has said that all the options available will automatically be beneficial, especially as the majority of the options require that the mage makes a choice (higher possible crit for a smaller attack bonus; wear armor in exchange for spells costing more and having a smaller casting bonus for each; etc..). 

Whether or not a scaling option, or other option (wearing armor, fast casting, etc..) is worthwhile will  be an individual decision on the part of the mage.

It is also worthwhile to note that a first level mage may also start with Power Point Adder (by spending DPs on the Special Starting Options list), and that the power points supplied by the Adder do not count when determining the casting modifier for scaling a spell up. Thus, a mage with a +1 PP Adder wants to cast a Firebolt that does a small attack. This costs a total of 6 PP. The Adder supplies 1 PP, leaving 5 for the mage to supply. Since 5 is only 1 higher than the base cost of 4, the mage receives only -5 for his casting roll in exchange doing a Small attack instead of a Tiny attack. That means a -5 casting modifier in exchange for a +10 increase to the Damage Cap. That makes scaling at lower levels much more worthwhile.


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 18, 2004)

If I want to conjure up an "Average" human, do I use Conjure Animal, Conjure Creature, or some other spell?  

What if I want to conjure up an "Average" elf?

My instincts are that they both fit under "creature" but on the other hand, humans DO exist in the real world...

Oh, and I fell victim to my bad habit in GURPS and made a one-trick pony spellcaster with lousy physical stats (11 in each), but 105 in SD, IN and RE.  Am I a bad person?


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 18, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> If I want to conjure up an "Average" human, do I use Conjure Animal, Conjure Creature, or some other spell?
> 
> What if I want to conjure up an "Average" elf?
> 
> My instincts are that they both fit under "creature" but on the other hand, humans DO exist in the real world...



My ruling would be that you need a different spell for something like that. And at the moment, one does not exist. I would not let sentient races be conjured via either spell.

Also, in rereading the two spells (and the Conjure Item) spell, I came up with something else as well. Conjure Animal and Conjure Creature both say "facsimile" while Conjure Item lets him create an object that is "identical" to one he as studied.  To me, this would say that facsimile could be taken to mean that the Conjured Animal/Creature has the shape and size, but that it might not have the coloration. It might be something along the lines of a slightly transluscent form made from solified energy. I think that would make them look very neat.


			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Oh, and I fell victim to my bad habit in GURPS and made a one-trick pony spellcaster with lousy physical stats (11 in each), but 105 in SD, IN and RE.  Am I a bad person?



Yes, you are a bad person. No cookie for you!


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 19, 2004)

Well, back on page 2, Teflon Billy said that Colonel Hardisson was giving HARP a read through and was going to do a review. Maybe he will be nice and post a comment or two here before that, to give us an idea of what he thinks.

I also know that Henry is reading through HARP as well. Any thoughts Henry?

Anybody else have any questions/comments?


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 19, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Also, in rereading the two spells (and the Conjure Item) spell, I came up with something else as well. Conjure Animal and Conjure Creature both say "facsimile" while Conjure Item lets him create an object that is "identical" to one he as studied.  To me, this would say that facsimile could be taken to mean that the Conjured Animal/Creature has the shape and size, but that it might not have the coloration. It might be something along the lines of a slightly transluscent form made from solified energy. I think that would make them look very neat.




That seems like a Plantonic take on the spells, where the Study Target was to get the "abstract" template of the relevant animal/creature, and the Conjure spells "reprint" from that abstract template.  Items, being creations of people, would not have these timeless abstract forms, so a Study Target would simply give one a picture of the thing itself, which could be duplicated later.  It is an interesting idea, metaphysically speaking.

(By the way, this would argue against "creatures" like gryhpons, giant rats, etc. being magical creations of earlier mages (which was given as one possible reason why "Creatures" are different from "Animals"), since if creatures are created by mages at some point in history, then they would not have timeless abstract templates to copy, but would be more like items.  Thus adding another weight on the side of the scale that says that Conjure Animal and Conjure Creature should be merged).

As for you ruling that intelligent races not being conjurable by the spell Conjure Creature...I thought you said in this thread that, in one of your game worlds at least, gryphons *were* intelligent (and thus might object to being mounts).  If they (or at least a "average mindless version" of them) can be created with Conjure Creature, why not an "average mindless version" of an elf, or human?  I mean, it could be all translucent and stuff, so no one would mistake it for a *real* elf or human, but there might be times when it is handy to have a disposible biped (to try on potentially dangerous helmets, for example).


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 19, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> That seems like a Plantonic take on the spells, where the Study Target was to get the "abstract" template of the relevant animal/creature, and the Conjure spells "reprint" from that abstract template.  Items, being creations of people, would not have these timeless abstract forms, so a Study Target would simply give one a picture of the thing itself, which could be duplicated later.  It is an interesting idea, metaphysically speaking.



hehe... way too much thought into that for me.... 



			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> (By the way, this would argue against "creatures" like gryhpons, giant rats, etc. being magical creations of earlier mages (which was given as one possible reason why "Creatures" are different from "Animals"), since if creatures are created by mages at some point in history, then they would not have timeless abstract templates to copy, but would be more like items.  Thus adding another weight on the side of the scale that says that Conjure Animal and Conjure Creature should be merged).



Well, in Cyradon (the upcoming HARP setting), Gryphons were not created by wizards, they are natural (in the same sense that dragons are natural) and evolved on their own.

So actually, a LOT of it will depend upon the setting being used, and  how the GM views things. This is not something that can really be helped unless we turn around and say that all forms of creature xx came into being this way for all settings and worlds, which is not something we want to do as it removes a lot of flexibility for the GM when you do that.


			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> As for you ruling that intelligent races not being conjurable by the spell Conjure Creature...I thought you said in this thread that, in one of your game worlds at least, gryphons *were* intelligent (and thus might object to being mounts).  If they (or at least a "average mindless version" of them) can be created with Conjure Creature, why not an "average mindless version" of an elf, or human?  I mean, it could be all translucent and stuff, so no one would mistake it for a *real* elf or human, but there might be times when it is handy to have a disposible biped (to try on potentially dangerous helmets, for example).



In the basic HARP rules, Gryphons are not sentient. In the setting (Cyradon) that we are working on, we made them sentient. Again, I would like to point out that it would have to depend on the setting and how it defines creatures.

My "ruling" is nothing more than my interpretation of the spells. In my own setting I would have Gryphons an non-sentients, and thus able to be created via the Conjure Creature spell, where in Cyradon, having them be sentient, they could not be created using the spell. Same interpretation applied to two different sets of circumstances.

As for creating a bi-pedal energy construct, cool, that is a nifty idea for a new spell. (We ended up cutting about 1/3 of the spells from College of Magics during editing, many of which will find their way into other products, such as the Mystic and Sorceror who will show up in our book on the dark side of magic called, "Something Wicked", due out in mid-2005 and written by Jonathon Cassie.

We also have a PDF product coming out during the early part of 2005 to be called the HARP Grimoire, which will have lots of new spells, so the bi-pedal Conjuration would be a good place for it. I will have to suggest that to the author...


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## TGryph (Nov 20, 2004)

*Actually, it was me...*

Rasyr;

     Just to satisfy your curiosity, it was me that oringinated that line about HARP doing D&D better than D20, in an old RPG.Net Thread:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=124645&page=7&pp=10&highlight=TGryph

     I still feel that way too! : )

     TGryph


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## Rasyr (Nov 20, 2004)

Glad to hear it and thanks for the reminder (although I would have almost swore that Teflon Billy said the same thing, or almost the same thing - hehe).


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## Rasyr (Nov 21, 2004)

So, does anybody else have any more questions while we have this thread going?


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## ColonelHardisson (Nov 21, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> So, does anybody else have any more questions while we have this thread going?




Hmm. I'll have to get back to you on that, so consider this a bump. Great work, by the way.



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I recently gave my second copy of HARP to Colonel Hardisson, who will be reviewing it shortly (he is equally impressed)




Almost missed this. Yep, I'll post my more detailed thoughts on the game after I get done digesting it. HARP is a real gem of a game, as TB says. I remember way back when, playing RM and MERP, and how complex they seemed, which sucked the fun out of playing. Plus, the crit charts often seemed ridiculously overblown in RM, and the crits in MERP, while watered down, seemed out of place in Middle-earth. HARP addresses this, and other aspects of its predecessors, and manages to streamline the system to make it more accessible. Plus, the core book is all that one needs, really, which is refreshing. I love d20, but only having to buy one book that is less than $30 is a huge plus. Plus, the book seems chock-full of advice and asides, and has a writing style that is clear and concise without the often textbook sterility found in the D&D core books. In general, this is one of the better RPG books I've read in while.


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## Rasyr (Nov 21, 2004)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Great work, by the way.
> 
> Almost missed this. Yep, I'll post my more detailed thoughts on the game after I get done digesting it. HARP is a real gem of a game, as TB says. I remember way back when, playing RM and MERP, and how complex they seemed, which sucked the fun out of playing. Plus, the crit charts often seemed ridiculously overblown in RM, and the crits in MERP, while watered down, seemed out of place in Middle-earth. HARP addresses this, and other aspects of its predecessors, and manages to streamline the system to make it more accessible. Plus, the core book is all that one needs, really, which is refreshing. I love d20, but only having to buy one book that is less than $30 is a huge plus. Plus, the book seems chock-full of advice and asides, and has a writing style that is clear and concise without the often textbook sterility found in the D&D core books. In general, this is one of the better RPG books I've read in while.




Aww.... you are gonna swell my head with talk like that. Then my wife will take an aluminum basebat to it (my head, that is) in order to reduce the swelling....


----------



## Akrasia (Nov 22, 2004)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> ... I remember way back when, playing RM and MERP, and how complex they seemed, which sucked the fun out of playing....




Actually, I always thought that MERP was pretty straightforward -- certainly much more simple than 3.x D&D.  (At least in my experience.  Sure you have critical charts and maneuver charts in MERP, but there are no feats, the skills are more straightforward, and _everything_, including spells and combat abilities, is handled by the same mechanic, unlike "d20" D&D.)



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> In general, this is one of the better RPG books I've read in while.




Okay, I'm going to have to get off my lazy arse and finally send in the $30 of d20 crap I've collected over the years in order to check the system out...

Also, ColonelHardisson, given your familiarity with MERP, and Middle-earth in general (as you manage, IIRC, the ENWorld d20 conversion site for Middle-earth), any comments you might have in your review on the appropriateness of HARP for Middle-earth (including the old ICE stuff) would be most appreciated!


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## Rasyr (Nov 22, 2004)

Akrasia said:
			
		

> Okay, I'm going to have to get off my lazy arse and finally send in the $30 of d20 crap I've collected over the years in order to check the system out...




You can actually order the book before sending in the $30 worth of d20 products. Just place your order online, and then send the books in, and when we receive them (it is a good idea to include a copy of your receipt from the order - it makes it easier to find then), Lori will credit the $15 back to your credit card. Your order will normally go out within 3 days of you placing it (often sooner).


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## Rasyr (Nov 23, 2004)

Akrasia said:
			
		

> Also, ColonelHardisson, given your familiarity with MERP, and Middle-earth in general (as you manage, IIRC, the ENWorld d20 conversion site for Middle-earth), any comments you might have in your review on the appropriateness of HARP for Middle-earth (including the old ICE stuff) would be most appreciated!




Yes, ColonelHardisson,I think that this would be interesting as well. Even though I am not much of a Middle Earth fan, I would also like to hear your thoughts on this.


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## Rasyr (Nov 24, 2004)

Any more comments or questions?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Beuller?

Beuller?

Beuller?


----------



## JoeGKushner (Nov 24, 2004)

What's the '05 line up of support look like for HARP?

And where is the setting already?    


			
				 Rasyr said:
			
		

> Any more comments or questions?
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> ...


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 24, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> What's the '05 line up of support look like for HARP?
> 
> And where is the setting already?




We are working hard on the setting. Recently realized that the layout for it was not the greatest, so we are currently reworking things as we continue to tighten things up and make it better overall. 

As we worked on it, we realized that several of the things we had would not work as we had intended (hence the new maps on the HARP website). So that required rewriting of several large sections (which is currently in progress).

As for the line up for next year, we have the following products slated for production:

*HARP Grimoire* (more spells for HARP - pdf only)
*Something Wicked* (the dark arts and things like summoning demons)
*HARP sci-fi *(sci-fi version of HARP - the author will be introducing the first version of these rules in an afternoon session at Dragonmeet this year -- this will be a generic set of rules usable for any sci-fi game)
*SysOps Guide* (a GM's book for the sci-fi game, including how to adapt the rules for various types of games like cyber, post apoc., space opera, etc..)
*Empty Hand, Tempered Fist* (a martial arts supplement (pdf only) for HARP)

Plus a few other things that I cannot remember off the top of my head.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Nov 24, 2004)

Doing more PDF route eh?

Now if they do well, will we see a print version, or will you be using lulu for that ala Ronin Arts and others?


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## Greatwyrm (Nov 24, 2004)

Ok, Rasyr, you got me interested.  I'm a hardcore D&D DM and a HERO system fan, too.  I just plunked down my last $10 (which I was saving for Complete Arcane) to d/l the basic book.  I'll give it a thorough going-over during the long weekend.


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## Rasyr (Nov 24, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Doing more PDF route eh?
> 
> Now if they do well, will we see a print version, or will you be using lulu for that ala Ronin Arts and others?




The Martial Arts product will be incorporated into reprinting of Martial Law in a year or two.

As for the Grimoire, we are planning on doing several and releasing them as a print product in compilation.

And, no, we won't be using lulu. ICE is in the process of acquiring its own printing/binding machine for in-house use. Once we have it in place, we will then be printing our own books (too many hassles with printers over the past year). We will only have to print the number we need (and a few extras), and thus save on costs (the cost per book is slightly less than via a printing company) for printing, and more importantly wharehousing. There is a lot of potential in our getting this... (note: only does softcovers, but the binding is better and tougher than most I have ever seen. I really abused the samples they sent us and could not break the binding.)

We also have several licensing deals in the works for third party publishers to produce HARP related products. Wish I could say more about them (as I think that they are very exciting), but until the deals are done.... sigh....


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## Rasyr (Nov 24, 2004)

Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> Ok, Rasyr, you got me interested.  I'm a hardcore D&D DM and a HERO system fan, too.  I just plunked down my last $10 (which I was saving for Complete Arcane) to d/l the basic book.  I'll give it a thorough going-over during the long weekend.



Glad to hear it! Personaly, I think that you will like it (although I do realize that not everybody will like every system)...

HARP tries to balance flexibility with simplicity and overall, I think it does a pretty good job of it.


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## JoeGKushner (Nov 24, 2004)

See dude, another sale! Slowly but surely you'll be converting the masses.

Oh wait, here's a RMSS question... kind of...

Wasn't there supposed to be some big conversion book of these suckers for d20? I've been waiting patiently to unleash those unstoppable killing machines against my players... from RMIII I'm thinking... Reavers? Argh... brain not working...


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## Rasyr (Nov 24, 2004)

You mean this? http://www.ironcrown.com/vault/vaultRM.htm#RMconversion

Of course it is only from d20 to RM, but you should be able to do the reverse as well.


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## JoeGKushner (Nov 24, 2004)

I don't think so. 

I could've swore that there was going to be some edition of Creatures & Monsters that had like an appendix or something of d20 stats.

Not that this in and of itself isn't cool and yanked...


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## Shard O'Glase (Nov 24, 2004)

so why couldn't you have posted this thread before I went to the game store, I ended up getting gurps 4E if I had read this I would of gotten harp instead.  I was looking at the latest incarnation of rolemaster and what stopped me was it seemed too incomplete without all the law books and I wasn't sure if I could just use my old editions of them.  And also I was physically allergic to previous versions of gurps where I'd get sick just opening the book something funky in the inks or somehting so I wanted to see what the hubub was all about.  And quite frankly totally unimpressed with gurps I think hero is a much better generic system.  But hey my local store(Gator games somewhere between san mateo and belmont CA I think its still in san mateo but not sure) does have a 20% discount on everything this week so I wot be loosing too much when I pick this up.


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## Rasyr (Nov 24, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> so why couldn't you have posted this thread before I went to the game store,



Ummm.. I started this thread on November 13th, that is two Saturdays ago... 

I have been trying to keep it going and active since then....  


			
				Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> But hey my local store(Gator games somewhere between san mateo and belmont CA I think its still in san mateo but not sure) does have a 20% discount on everything this week so I wot be loosing too much when I pick this up.



If this means that you are planning on picking up HARP this weekend (which is what it sounds like you are saying), then........  Cool!!!!!


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## Rasyr (Nov 25, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I don't think so.
> 
> I could've swore that there was going to be some edition of Creatures & Monsters that had like an appendix or something of d20 stats.



Hmm... perhaps you were thinking of the *HARP d20fied* document that I did? In it, I took and provided guidelines for using HARP with a d20 rather than percentile dice (note: not an actual conversion, but just with things rewritten to use a 20 sided die), and included versions of the HARP monsters with their stats already converted over. If so, you can find it on this page --> http://www.harphq.com/webextras.htm


			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Not that this in and of itself isn't cool and yanked...


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## ColonelHardisson (Nov 25, 2004)

Akrasia said:
			
		

> Actually, I always thought that MERP was pretty straightforward -- certainly much more simple than 3.x D&D.  (At least in my experience.  Sure you have critical charts and maneuver charts in MERP, but there are no feats, the skills are more straightforward, and _everything_, including spells and combat abilities, is handled by the same mechanic, unlike "d20" D&D.)




I wasn't comparing MERP to 3.X, actually, but rather to what I was playing in the mid 1980s when I first encountered MERP, which was 1e. I'd been playing 1e since about 1979, so I knew a lot of it by heart by then, including having memorized the combat matrices. So it was more a matter of old vs. new than anything else.

I did help create the EN World d20 Middle-earth site, but I haven't really had much to do with it for quite a while. Anyway, as for HARP being good for a Middle-earth game...well, I never thought MERP was particularly appropriate for that world. I think it was mostly the crit charts that seemed inappropriate to me. Now, after looking at HARP, I'd say it could handle a Middle-earth campaign just as well as d20 in its D&D form. I think both systems would need some tweaking, but that's true of any system, I guess. I will have to say that HARP would likely be easier to customize for such a game, simply due to the fact that it is a less complex game than d20, straight out of the box. But, y'know, Decipher's LotR RPG is really very, very nice, and is perhaps a bit less complex than even HARP (the LotR RPG is very much like "d20 Lite" using 2d6). Too bad Decipher seems to have abandoned it.

By the way, I wish I had my old MERP books handy; they're great resources, and Angus McBride's art on the covers of so many of them was outstanding.


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## Greatwyrm (Nov 25, 2004)

Okay, I've had a look at the first few chapters.  Here's what I'm thinking so far.

1.  I like the overall dice mechanic.  Simple and consistent.  I liked it in d20, why wouldn't I like it here?

2.  I like the ability to mix racial types to make your own half-whatever.  It's not that I've been dying to play a half-elf/half-dwarf, but it looks like you could use the basic rules to fairly easily make up your own new races.

3.  I'm not really sold on how development points work, but I may not be reading them correctly.  It looks like the amount of DPs you get per level is based on your stats.  So, do I get rewarded for having high stats twice?  Once in higher skill rolls and again with more DPs?  Like I said, I may not be getting this part.

I'm just now getting into magic and combat.  More later.


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## Shard O'Glase (Nov 25, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Ummm.. I started this thread on November 13th, that is two Saturdays ago...
> 
> I have been trying to keep it going and active since then....
> 
> If this means that you are planning on picking up HARP this weekend (which is what it sounds like you are saying), then........  Cool!!!!!




yeah well I went to the game store on the 12th it was a sort of dual purpose mission to scout out if complete arcane had come out yet and to get a new system.

And yes I'll be picking up HARP this weekend.  Hi my name is Ray Weiss and I'm a gaming addict.


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## Greatwyrm (Nov 26, 2004)

A few more thoughts...

_Attack/Damage Mechanic:_  I like that a higher attack roll produces more damage.  It seems odd that in many games, you can hit by a ridiculous margin, but still only nick your opponent.

Needing to reference a chart each time seems like it would be a little less intuitive, though.  Most of the other mechanics in the game seem like you'd hardly ever need to look them up, but you'll need the weapons chart each time (but there are far fewer than in Rolemaster).

_Spell System: _  I like the scalability of the spell system, done similarly to the way the Expanded Psi Handbook for 3.5 allows you to spend more points for greater effects.

I was a little disappointed to see that rules for making your own new spells weren't included (didn't see any for new magic items either).  The spells included are consistent enought that you could probably do a decent job of reverse engineering the guidelines.  However, I'm guessing this is better addressed in the Magic supplement.

A minor nitpick in the spell section for me is the reprinting of spells that appear on different caster lists.  Just doesn't seem like an efficient use of space.

_Monsters:_  A good cross section of monsters for a basic fantasy game.  There are also guidelines for improving or modifying them using the class system characters use.  I like this in D&D and I like it here.


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## Rasyr (Nov 26, 2004)

Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> Okay, I've had a look at the first few chapters.  Here's what I'm thinking so far.
> 
> 1.  I like the overall dice mechanic.  Simple and consistent.  I liked it in d20, why wouldn't I like it here?



For the most part, it is the same dice mechanic that has been used in Rolemaster for close to 20 years. I applied the mechanic in a slightly different manner, but in essence it is still the same mechanic.


			
				Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> 2.  I like the ability to mix racial types to make your own half-whatever.  It's not that I've been dying to play a half-elf/half-dwarf, but it looks like you could use the basic rules to fairly easily make up your own new races.



 I really like experimenting and tweaking things, so HARP is a game that is easy to tweak and adjust to suit each GMs individual style. Races are one part of that.  And yes, you can create your own races quite easily, they all follow the same basic pattern

Stat Bonues - between 8 and 11 points (humans get 8, but get to put them where they want, the other races have 10 or 11 on average)[/*]
Endurance & Power Point Bonuses - added together equal 60 points[/*]
Resistance Roll Bonuses - added together equals 30 points[/*]
Racial Abilities - Each race has three abilities, no more, no less.[/*]
Using the above guidelines you can create all sorts of races....



			
				Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> 3.  I'm not really sold on how development points work, but I may not be reading them correctly.  It looks like the amount of DPs you get per level is based on your stats.  So, do I get rewarded for having high stats twice?  Once in higher skill rolls and again with more DPs?  Like I said, I may not be getting this part.



Yes, you are "getting it", though I never think of it as a double bonus. To me, a smarter or stronger person would be able to develop more.

However, there are a few others who do think it is a double bonus and have decided to give only a static number of DPs per level. In such cases, the number of DPs given reflects the power level of the game that they run. If you decide to do this, 45 DPs per level would be considered the baseline. You can then adjust up or down to suit your own power level.


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## Rasyr (Nov 26, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> And yes I'll be picking up HARP this weekend.  Hi my name is Ray Weiss and I'm a gaming addict.



Welcome, and may I offer you another game......


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## Rasyr (Nov 26, 2004)

Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> A few more thoughts...
> 
> _Attack/Damage Mechanic:_  I like that a higher attack roll produces more damage.  It seems odd that in many games, you can hit by a ridiculous margin, but still only nick your opponent.



Same thought here. For instance, in Rolemaster, you can open-end your attack roll many times and end up a total of several hundred for the attack, and then roll a 01 for the critical and do NO extra damage. Thus, in HARP, the amount of damage done is tied to how well you hit your opponent.


			
				Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> Needing to reference a chart each time seems like it would be a little less intuitive, though.  Most of the other mechanics in the game seem like you'd hardly ever need to look them up, but you'll need the weapons chart each time (but there are far fewer than in Rolemaster).



Actually, the critical tables are only referenced if you actually hit your foe. The determination of whether or not you hit does not use the tables at all.

Also, it is important to note that HARP does contain an option for running combat without using critical tables at all (the Life Points option). There is a second variation of that in the book Martial Law as well (along with critical tables with columns keyed to body location as well).

Again, we are back to the flexibility of the HARP system, and how you can easily replace the critical tables with something else. 

For example, one person has decided to use a variation of the Life Point system. In it, he uses a different die type for each critical size, and then for every 20 points of the final attack roll, the player gets to roll an additional die of the same type. Thus, a character doing a medium attack (broad sword), and having a final attack roll of 47 would do 2d10 damage. He then figures bleeding and maneuver penalties on the fly from the total amount of hit damage done on the dice.


			
				Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> _Spell System: _  I like the scalability of the spell system, done similarly to the way the Expanded Psi Handbook for 3.5 allows you to spend more points for greater effects.



I actually designed that system several years ago. Back when ICE's Spacemaster first came out, before I could get a chance to purchase it, I used that basic design for a psionics system of my own devising (though unfortunately I never finished it). Then in 2002 when I started designing HARP, I used that same basic system, though in a much more codified manner, for the HARP spell system.  


			
				Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> I was a little disappointed to see that rules for making your own new spells weren't included (didn't see any for new magic items either).  The spells included are consistent enought that you could probably do a decent job of reverse engineering the guidelines.  However, I'm guessing this is better addressed in the Magic supplement.



Correct, both the creation of new spells (and Cantrips), the creation of magic items (which requires either rituals or certain spells),  and the creation of Rituals are all covered in College of Magics.

To create new spells, you select the proper aspects and atributes of the spell you are creating. Each has a point cost (and multiple aspects increases the cost by doubling the cost of aspects beyond the first), and the final point cost is what is used to determine how many Power Points the base spell will cost. Certain Scaling Options (such as range and duration increases) have set costs (in PP), and are added in at the end of the spell creation process.


			
				Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> A minor nitpick in the spell section for me is the reprinting of spells that appear on different caster lists.  Just doesn't seem like an efficient use of space.



Well, that was done for ease of use by the player. Notice how each profession's spells begin and end on a specific page, and how you never have spells from two professions on the same page. It was done like this so that a player can just photocopy the pages with the spells for his profession (or a GM can do the same for a player who does not have the book) on them, and not have to worry about spells outside their profession being mixed in with the rest.

For example, if you are GMing, and a player (who does not have HARP), is playing a Warrior Mage, then you only need to photocopy pages 111-114 for the Universal spells that he might learn, and pages 135-137 for the Warrior Mage spells that he might learn.  That is 7 pages in total versus a possible 12 or more page if we had listed the spells alphabetically, and not by sphere, and not repeated spells that were in more than one sphere. See? Easier for those playing the game.


			
				Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> _Monsters:_  A good cross section of monsters for a basic fantasy game.  There are also guidelines for improving or modifying them using the class system characters use.  I like this in D&D and I like it here.



Thanks! I will admit that I did get the inspiration for that (i.e. monster can have levels in professions) from D&D. 

However, I implemented the basic concept in a slightly different manner as  HARP does not have "monster levels" like D&D does. Instead all creatures are created as straight HARP Fighters of the appropriate level. Thus Kobolds are all first level Fighters, and Orcs are all 6th level Fighters. I also used 75 across the board for all stats as well (for consistency). Also, with the rules for additional Professions, this makes it easy to add levels of Mage, Cleric, or whatever you like to the base monster, or to create him as that profession from the ground up as well.


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## Rasyr (Nov 27, 2004)

I found the thread in which that Damage Dice system I referred to is mentioned/explained. You can find it here ---> http://www.ironcrown.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5415

And here is another optional damage system, one that a HARP fan based on the Silhouette RPG damage system ---> http://www.ironcrown.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5035


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## Rasyr (Nov 28, 2004)

Any more comments or questions?


BTW, I am also working on yet another variation of the Life Point system (no tables required for use) that incorporates base damage determined by weapon size, with additional damage determined by how well the attack was made. This system also incorporates critical strike, which can double the amount of damage done if the attack was good enough. I am planning on including this new alternative in a pdf product that I am working on writing (am calling it "HARPer's Bazaar" and it will be the first issue of a quarterly publication containing new races, cultures, and other odds and ends from my twisted phyche)  It should be available sometime in early December for those interested.


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## Sado (Nov 28, 2004)

I want to bring up the development point thing again.

I skimmed over the character creation download, and it looks like higher stats give you more development points, which can give you higher stats, which give you more development points, etc etc, ad infinitum.  Is that how it works?


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## Rasyr (Nov 28, 2004)

Sado said:
			
		

> I want to bring up the development point thing again.
> 
> I skimmed over the character creation download, and it looks like higher stats give you more development points, which can give you higher stats, which give you more development points, etc etc, ad infinitum.  Is that how it works?




Not quite. Higher stats do indeed give you more Development Points (DPs), and you can use these Development Points to increase your stats. When you increase your stats, the bonuses from those new stats are applied immediately, however, you do not receive any more development points from the newly raised stat until the character goes up another level.

For example, you have a stat of 75 (which gives 5 DPs and a +5 bonus to skills using that stat), and you are going from first to second level. If you spent 10 points on that stat to raise it to an 85, the stat bonus automatically goes up to a +7, and you need to refigure the total bonus for any skills using that stat. However, you have already figured what your DPs for this level is, and will not refigure them again until you gain enough experience to be third level. Thus you do not get the 2 additional DPs from the increase to the stat until you are going from second to third level and total up how many DPs you will get to spend.

You are also limited in how many development points that you are allowed to spend on stats each level as well (IIRC, no more than 20 DPs to stats each level).

And don't forget that DPs are also used to purchase new skill ranks and talents, and fate points, etc... Thus, any you spend on stats is less that you have to spend on skills. Using the above character from the example, the DPs spent on the stat will give him enough DPs to purchase one more rank of a skill from any of his Favored categories. However, to get that, he gave up purchasing 5 skill ranks (and at his level, going from first to second, each skill rank gives a+5 bonus to the skill) in order to increase the stat. 

Thus he gave up a possible +25 in a single skill (depending on how many ranks he had in the skill to begin with) in order to get a +2 to a number of skills. As to whether or not that is a fair trade-off is determined by the player, and his goals for his character.

From comments on the ICE forums, and  from personal experience, I can attest that increasing stats is quite often done on a much slower basis than as shown in my example. Most often a player will throw any left over DPs into a stat once they have finished purchasing other things (usually skills), especially if they have an odd number of DPs.


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## Sado (Nov 28, 2004)

Thanks for the quick reply, Rasyr. By the way, don't you sleep? I work third shift, what's your excuse?   

So you get the DP increase, but can't use it until next level. Got it.

The game has intrigued me, I will be getting a copy. I would like to add my approval of the way mixed races are handled.


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## Rasyr (Nov 28, 2004)

Sado said:
			
		

> Thanks for the quick reply, Rasyr. By the way, don't you sleep? I work third shift, what's your excuse?



I sleep a good 4 - 6 hours a night usually. This being a weekend, those hours started later than normal 


			
				Sado said:
			
		

> So you get the DP increase, but can't use it until next level. Got it.



Yuppers!


			
				Sado said:
			
		

> The game has intrigued me, I will be getting a copy. I would like to add my approval of the way mixed races are handled.



Thanks! 

For Blood Talents, I wanted a way to represent a character with differing amount of blood from another race in their veins, and it seemed like the best way to go.


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## Rasyr (Nov 29, 2004)

Any more comments or questions?


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## Henry (Nov 29, 2004)

Finally got a chance this week to dig into HARP. Some things you just can't appreciate without rolling up a character and playing. STILL haven't played it yet, but at least I went through some mock scenarios.

My opinion was mixed; it was fascinating to sift through, and try to figure out, never having seen Rolemaster, which parts were similar to Rolemaster, and which parts were brand-new. It definitely seems like it plays smoother than I had been led to believe - and Rolemaster style percentile rolls were definitely different from what I imagined (At first I had thought them more like CoC or Runequest). 

What I do like, is the piecemeal approach to building a character through feats and skills (like what Mutants and Masterminds does for superheroes, this does for fantasy). I could build pretty much anything I wanted to similar to a D&D 3E character, through the skills and talents, albeit slower than such is given in D&D. At first I was thinking the Development Points (DP's) were excessive, but then realized they were nowhere near enough!  Good balance overall, however, and much finer gradations of success, not just through the percentile system, but through the two or three different means of resoution mechanics. 

What I DON'T like, is the Percentage system of success - it really bugged me the way it worked, and I can't put my finger solidly on why. Perhaps it's the examples I read, because it seemed like to figure out what percentage of something you've accomplished, it maps out directly to the result on your percentile roll, with no modifiers for skill, which doesn't seem right.

The only other thing that bugs me slightly is the dependence on two scores instead of one for skills; "dependence" might be a strong word, but it may take a while to get used to skill defaults in this system.

Other than that, the only other thing that put me off were the number of modifiers for combat; for the sake of excitement as well as accuracy, there seemed to be an overwhelming number of them. 

The final thing to HARP is the flavor - forget Hackmaster, THIS is the game that catapults me to the feelings I had when I used to play 1st edition D&D - kind of a nostalgia/novelty hybrid feeling that had me interested in reading the rules and wanting to set something up with them for people to play. An Idea is forming in my mind about a series of one-shots of different game systems - Some of my players are already wanting me to run a Continuum game for them, I wonder how they'd feel about a HARP one-shot or two-shot. Hmmm...


But overall, the system screams playable at first glance, as well as amazingly customizeable, and much lower-power than D&D gets at higher levels.


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## Particle_Man (Nov 29, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> For Blood Talents, I wanted a way to represent a character with differing amount of blood from another race in their veins, and it seemed like the best way to go.




Yup, for a spellcaster take a Human with Dwarf Blood (Greater) and you get to add 3 bonus points to Self-Discipline's bonus from Human, AND 2 bonus points from Dwarf blood, so my 105 Self-Discipline character has a modifier of +20 to Self-Disicpline!  Woot!  Goes nicely with my +18 Reasoning bonus and +17 Insight bonus for my character.  And my con penalty for a score of 11 goes from -14 to -12, which helps.

Nothing like starting with +83 and +93 in my two spells (Minor Healing and Phantasm) at first level, and +107 in my Power Point Development skill (I kept that +10 skill bonus from my human side just for this).  The weak spot is resistance: Stamina at 16 (a frail wizard), but the +74 Resistance: Magic and +80 Resistance: Will makes up for it.  Ahh...it all comes back.  My inner Munchkin is happy.  Who needs cookies?


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## Particle_Man (Nov 29, 2004)

Slightly more seriously, do the stat bonuses from racial modifiers mean that one gets more development points, or not?  My dwarvish human above has a SD stat of 105 but with racial modifiers has a 20 bonus instead of 15.  Does that give him 15 Development points or 20 from that stat?


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## Citizen Mane (Nov 29, 2004)

The more you talk about chargen, Particle_Man, the more I want to play this.    I've been reading the PDFs over the weekend.  Good stuff.

Nick


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## Particle_Man (Nov 29, 2004)

Hey all I need is to find a game master whose head won't explode when I show him my character.  

Oh, and Eloquence is DA BOMB when it comes to talents for spellcasters.  Accept no substitute!

My only problem is that the person likely to run the game is, well, me, so I would have to be all FAIR and BALANCED and NO MARY-SUE CHARACTER and all that.  BOOOOOORING!  

Seriously, though, it looks like a fine game, albeit with a learning curve.  And it seems easy enough to house rule.


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## Rasyr (Nov 29, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Slightly more seriously, do the stat bonuses from racial modifiers mean that one gets more development points, or not?  My dwarvish human above has a SD stat of 105 but with racial modifiers has a 20 bonus instead of 15.  Does that give him 15 Development points or 20 from that stat?



 Development Points are based on Stats, not stat bonuses, so it give him 15 DPs for that stat.


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## Greatwyrm (Nov 29, 2004)

Overall, I like HARP.  I give it a thumbs up.  It's simple, in a good way.  It looks like it would handle pretty much anything you'd want to see in a typical fantasy game.  Also, if you got the pdf like I did, it's inexpensive.

That said, I don't forsee it replacing my other favorite systems.  I'll probably use some of the ideas from HARP in other games (like scaling spells).  I'll probably pick up some of the supplements for similar reasons.


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## Rasyr (Nov 29, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> My opinion was mixed; it was fascinating to sift through, and try to figure out, never having seen Rolemaster, which parts were similar to Rolemaster, and which parts were brand-new. It definitely seems like it plays smoother than I had been led to believe - and Rolemaster style percentile rolls were definitely different from what I imagined (At first I had thought them more like CoC or Runequest).



Had never thought that might be an issue. Just to make it absolutely clear for anybody else who might have this same issue, HARP uses a roll-over percentage mechanism. This means that you roll, add your bonuses (i.e. total skill bonus) and modifiers (difficulty modifiers normally, all are multiples of 20, both positive and negative) to this roll, and then determine success (or degree of success if using one of the columns from the Maneuver Table - most skills just require a 101 or higher to succeed with no table look-ups).


			
				Henry said:
			
		

> What I do like, is the piecemeal approach to building a character through feats and skills (like what Mutants and Masterminds does for superheroes, this does for fantasy). I could build pretty much anything I wanted to similar to a D&D 3E character, through the skills and talents, albeit slower than such is given in D&D. At first I was thinking the Development Points (DP's) were excessive, but then realized they were nowhere near enough!  Good balance overall, however, and much finer gradations of success, not just through the percentile system, but through the two or three different means of resoution mechanics.



Thanks! I wanted to allow for different kinds of maneuvers without making it complicated, yet also wanted to make sure that what was allowed for also allowed for resolution of anything not covered by the rules. The three main columns of the maneuver table (Perecntage, Bonus, & RR) can be used to resolve almost any sort of situation. Combined with the default All-or-nothing method, this allows for any conceivable situation to be covered, even those highly unusual and complex situations that PCs like to get themselves into.

Using that table, the next time a PC says " I want run on the pile of orcs we knocked down, and jump up and swing across the room on the chandelier to the door on the other side", all you would have to do is say, "Ok, that is going to be a comlpex action, so we will use the Percentage Column of the Maneuver Table. It is also going to be Extremely Hard to accomplish, but you do get to use any Acrobatics skill that you have." and boom! instant method to resolve it!


			
				Henry said:
			
		

> What I DON'T like, is the Percentage system of success - it really bugged me the way it worked, and I can't put my finger solidly on why. Perhaps it's the examples I read, because it seemed like to figure out what percentage of something you've accomplished, it maps out directly to the result on your percentile roll, with no modifiers for skill, which doesn't seem right.



When you can put your finger on it, let me know, okay? For the most part, the system works in muhc the same way as d20 for resolution (just uses different dice), especially if you think of the difficulty modifiers as "DC modifiers". Thus instead of telling a player that they get a -20 to the roll for a Hard Maneuver, just tell them that they need a 121 or higher, or don't tell them at all and just ask for their total (and apply the difficulty mod yourself). 


			
				Henry said:
			
		

> The only other thing that bugs me slightly is the dependence on two scores instead of one for skills; "dependence" might be a strong word, but it may take a while to get used to skill defaults in this system.



That is likely from being not fully used to HARP yet. To me, two stats beign associated with a skill is natural, and having only one stat asociated isn't. Then again, I am more used to HARP and to Rolemaster before it (note: the current version of Rolemaster has 3 stats for each skill... hehe).


			
				Henry said:
			
		

> Other than that, the only other thing that put me off were the number of modifiers for combat; for the sake of excitement as well as accuracy, there seemed to be an overwhelming number of them.



Which you can easily pair down to what you like.  Note however, that if you are referring to the Combat Actions, I would most definitely leave Full Parry, Parry, and a couple of others as well (Parrying is extremely important in HARP!) 


			
				Henry said:
			
		

> The final thing to HARP is the flavor - forget Hackmaster, THIS is the game that catapults me to the feelings I had when I used to play 1st edition D&D - kind of a nostalgia/novelty hybrid feeling that had me interested in reading the rules and wanting to set something up with them for people to play. An Idea is forming in my mind about a series of one-shots of different game systems - Some of my players are already wanting me to run a Continuum game for them, I wonder how they'd feel about a HARP one-shot or two-shot. Hmmm...



Huzzah!


			
				Henry said:
			
		

> But overall, the system screams playable at first glance, as well as amazingly customizeable, and much lower-power than D&D gets at higher levels.



Glad that you liked it overall.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Nov 29, 2004)

I got it friday and its pretty good.  Without actually playing it will be hard to see how the resoulution mechainc feels but on the surface I like it.  The magic seems quite a bit more low magic than D&D I'll have to see how it works out but the mana seems like it would disapear really quickly and because of how the skill system works will grow slowly past the early levels.  It all depends on how much augmentation is needed to maintain a competative edge with the other classes.  But I need more, I want more spells I have to either find or get rules on enchanting items, oh and I want a mage who animates undead 30 or 40 development points for the cleric list is a lot.  Though since you can't really control undead for more than a couple minutes at best I don't see why anyone with a shred of sanity would summon any undead.  Summoning though is a classic area of magic they seemed light on there was a create undead spell and um summon animal.

Alos good or bad is up to you but virtually everything is short duration, spells last rounds lots of times many rounds but rounds anyways.  So there really is no long term buff without actually palying the system I don't knw if the buffs are potent enough for there cost with such a short duraiton.(usually 1 or 2 rounds per rank in a skill a round being 2 seconds I believe so at the really high end a skill of 100 in a buff spell would mean your spell would last like 400 seconds(800 with the duraiton modifier talent) so 6-7 mintues or 13-14 mintutes.


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 29, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> I got it friday and its pretty good.  Without actually playing it will be hard to see how the resoulution mechainc feels but on the surface I like it.



Cool!  


			
				Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> The magic seems quite a bit more low magic than D&D I'll have to see how it works out but the mana seems like it would disapear really quickly and because of how the skill system works will grow slowly past the early levels.   It all depends on how much augmentation is needed to maintain a competative edge with the other classes.



Well, there are decives such as spell adders (free casting of spells) and Power Point Adders (reduces cost of casting spells) that will help. However, magic users also get mana back through resting, so a few hours of rest and they can regain at least some of their mana for casting..  


			
				Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> But I need more, I want more spells I have to either find or get rules on enchanting items, oh



Well, then I think that you will want College of Magics. In it are rules for spell creation, as well as spells for Item Creation (via the Thaumaturge profession). Rituals can also be used for item creation, as you can learn rituals for spells without having to know the spell.


			
				Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> and I want a mage who animates undead 30 or 40 development points for the cleric list is a lot.  Though since you can't really control undead for more than a couple minutes at best I don't see why anyone with a shred of sanity would summon any undead.  Summoning though is a classic area of magic they seemed light on there was a create undead spell and um summon animal.



Would a Necromancer do? One who basically Masters an Undead for a very long time (nearly indefinitely if cast properly).

Summoning (especially demons) will be treated in a supplement due to be released next year. Its title is going to be "Something Wicked". 

To give you a better idea of what is in College of Magics, here is the Table of Contents from it.


```
TABLE OF CONTENTS
INTRODUCTION
MAGICAL THEORY & PRACTICE 
	What Is Magic? 
	The Premises of Magic 
	Magic is Energy 
	Magic and the Planes
	Magic and the Elements
	The Web of Mana 
	The Unpredictability of Magic 
	Replenishment of Mana
	The Limits of Magic
	Magic and Belief
	The Practice of Magic
	Using Magic versus Spell Casting 
	How Spell Casting Works 
	Spell Casting and Armor 
	Sigils, Glyphs, Runes, Seals and Grimoires 
TYPES OF MAGIC 
	Blood Magic 
	Natural Magic
	Alchemy 
	Charmcraft 
	Ritual Magic 
	Rune Magic 
	Spell Magic 
	High Magic 
	Low Magic 
	Middle Magic 
		Great Circle of Elementalism 
		Great Circle of Magery 
		Great Circle of Necromancy 
		Great Circle of Thaumaturgy
		Great Circle of Vivamancy 
		Spheres of the Clerics 
		Sphere of the Harper 
		Sphere of the Ranger 
		Sphere of the Warrior Mage 
		Universal Sphere 
	Other Types of Magic 
THE PRACTITIONERS OF MAGIC 
	Professions 
	Training Packages 
	Mana Sources 
	Spell Focus Styles 
THE STUDY OF MAGIC 
	Learning Magic 
	Grimoires and Libraries 
	Researching Magic 
	New Magic
NEW SKILLS & TALENTS
	The Skills of Magic 
	The Talents of Magic
	Blood Magic 
NATURAL MAGIC 
	Natural Magic: An Occult Science 
	Alchemy 
	Charmcraft 
	The Costs of Alchemy and Charmcraft 
	Esoteric Substances and Occult Properties 
RITUALS & RUNES 
	Ritual Magic 
	Ritual Research 
	Rune Magic 
SPELL MAGIC 
	Low Magic 
	Middle Magic
	High Magic 
MAGICAL ENCHANTMENT 
	Types of Magical Items 
	The Process of Temporary Enchantment 
	Permanent Item Enchantment
	Item Creation Examples 
	The Cost of Magical Items 
	Exotic Magical Powers 
	Cursed Items 
MAGIC IN THE SETTING
	Which Types of Magic? 
	Magic and Society 
	Magic as Technology 
	Magic versus Technology 
	Magical Organizations 
	Adventure and Campaign Seeds
```


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 30, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> The magic seems quite a bit more low magic than D&D I'll have to see how it works out but the mana seems like it would disapear really quickly and because of how the skill system works will grow slowly past the early levels.




Oh! Another reason to pick up College of Magics. In it, there are rules for using 'fixed mana' (i.e. material components!). Using those rules, a mage can rely more on mana from the material components than he does on his own Power Points, and thus be able to cast more spells before running out. Thus the material components augment his power points like spell and PP Adders do. CoM has multiple ways for tweaking your spell users (HARP mentions a few, but gives no details on how to accomplish this).


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 30, 2004)

Okay, to answer a question from another thread...


			
				tassander said:
			
		

> Bye the bye, I'm sad to hear that one major distributor doesn't carry ICE products. How come?



Personal issues. What is boils down to is that one of the VPs at Alliance does not like my boss, and thus refuses to carry anything from ICE. 

I cannot remember if it was Osseum or not (if not, it was somebody who functions in a similair manner), but one fulfillment house tried to get ICE to sign with them thinking that they could get Alliance to carry ICE products if they carried them (i.e. get Alliance to carry ICE from the fulfillment house rather than from ICE directly). They were told that Alliance would carry anything and everything that they carried, except for ICE products.


----------



## Greatwyrm (Nov 30, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Personal issues. What is boils down to is that one of the VPs at Alliance does not like my boss, and thus refuses to carry anything from ICE.




And you know, people in the gaming industry make *such fat stacks of cash* that they can just throw away sales like that.   :\


----------



## Rasyr (Nov 30, 2004)

Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> And you know, people in the gaming industry make *such fat stacks of cash* that they can just throw away sales like that.   :\



hehe... You would think so, huh? (it might be best to start another thread altogether if you want to continue this discussion)


Ok, back on topic........  
Any more comments or questions about HARP??


----------



## JoeGKushner (Nov 30, 2004)

http://www.guildcompanion.com/auxx/modules.html

It's not what I was thinking of, but it is a d20 conversion that's supposed to be licensed.

Still, I  could swear somewhere down the road there was talk of a dual statted monster-magic item book.

Curse my low ability to recall...


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 1, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> http://www.guildcompanion.com/auxx/modules.html
> 
> It's not what I was thinking of, but it is a d20 conversion that's supposed to be licensed.



AH.. the ShadowWorld d20 project. Nick is just waiting on some last minute licensing details to be worked out (if my boss can ever find the time to get it done heheh)


			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Still, I  could swear somewhere down the road there was talk of a dual statted monster-magic item book.
> 
> Curse my low ability to recall...



Hmm.... I don't seem to recall anything of that (which is not proof in either direction as I could be just going brain dead....   )

I know that at the moment, ICE has no plans to produce and d20 products (the current ICE formed too late - there were already dozens, if not hundreds of d20 companies on the market when Mjolnir LLC dba Iron Crown Enterprises opened its doors).

However, as noted in the link, we have authorized The Guild Companion (in which I have posted several d20 articles myself, back before I started working for ICE) to reprint as pdf anything which ICE is not planning to reprint, and to do the d20 version of Shadow World. 

The Shadow World d20 conversion was done by Rob Defendi, who wrote the entire current Spacemaster line, and who, IIRC, worked on the Stargate RPG as well.


----------



## Sado (Dec 1, 2004)

In the "Talents and Other Options" chapter, there are several examples of Training Packages (Jade Dragon, Astothian Archer, Caldean Rover, etc). Are these specific to any of the settings coming out for HARP or were they just made up to use as examples?


----------



## Rel (Dec 1, 2004)

Rasyr,

It looks like it is going to be a good long while before I get a chance to actually try out HARP, but I just wanted to say that I'm glad to see you getting so many good responses to this thread.  I hope sales are doing great.

And I also wanted to make sure you were aware that the next NC Game Day thread has been launched and I hope you can make it down this time.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 1, 2004)

Sado said:
			
		

> In the "Talents and Other Options" chapter, there are several examples of Training Packages (Jade Dragon, Astothian Archer, Caldean Rover, etc). Are these specific to any of the settings coming out for HARP or were they just made up to use as examples?



 No, they are not specific to any settings. I created them off-the-cuff as examples on how Training Packages are made and how you can tie them into a specific setting and/or leave them generic if you want.

And remember, both Players and GMs are allowed to come up with Training Packages. GMs are encouraged to work with players to incorporate Player-created TPs into the setting.

On the HARP website, you can find a 6 page PDF that contains a lot of "common TPs" to be found in a fantasy setting.  http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/iceCommonTPs.pdf

and you can also find the Non-Adventuring Professions -- http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/iceNonAdvProf.pdf -- and a GM can easily combine the two to create almost any type of NPC needed. Or even run the "normal folk caught in an adventure" type of campaign if you like.

The whole purpose behind Training Packages is to allow them to be tied to a specific setting, to help give the PCs ties to that setting. One of the biggest benefits of Training Packages is that they give contacts, friends, and other ties to NCPs (and perhaps organizations) that the GM might possibly use as plot hooks later on.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 1, 2004)

Rel said:
			
		

> It looks like it is going to be a good long while before I get a chance to actually try out HARP, but I just wanted to say that I'm glad to see you getting so many good responses to this thread.  I hope sales are doing great.



thanks! And yup, sales for HARP are steadily (although slowly - hehe) increasing as more and more folks decide to take a look at it. 



			
				Rel said:
			
		

> And I also wanted to make sure you were aware that the next NC Game Day thread has been launched and I hope you can make it down this time.



Yup! I saw it. Hopefully, I will be able to make it down. It is too far away right now for me to know for sure (it is also approximately a 4 hour drive, so it would be an over-nighter if I came).


----------



## Sado (Dec 1, 2004)

The book and website mention some kind of character creation software, but I've looked around the site and don't see it anywhere. Could you point me to it?


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 1, 2004)

Sado said:
			
		

> The book and website mention some kind of character creation software, but I've looked around the site and don't see it anywhere. Could you point me to it?




Yeah, we have had a run of bad luck with the software.

The first person/company who was working on HARP Character Creation Software let us down very badly (and no, I won't go into details).

The second person we had working on software just up and disappeared on us completely. No idea why or where.

The third person is currently working on the software and the thread about it (along with screen shots) can be found here --> http://www.ironcrown.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5352

There is also an excel spreadsheet available for character creation (lots of automation in it as well). It can be found here --> http://www.harphq.com/charsheets.htm#autocalc 

For those who use Bruce Gulke's excellent program Tablesmith, you can find some NPC generators for Tablesmith here --> http://www.harphq.com/vault.htm#tablesmith


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Dec 1, 2004)

Just want to say you're a rat bastard, taking money right out of my wallet.  Yeesh the main book and now 3 supplements.  If I can't get them at my store I guess I'll get them off your site, but the sale is in the bag.

Still overall this is an inexpensive game.  The main book was like 30$ and that's all you need.  The monster book, combat book, and magic book look to be 20$ a pop so if you get all those its 90$ the basics of D&D cost that and with expansions I'm much more in the hole for it.  And quite frankly I like this system more.

Side question are any adventures planned for terminally lazy DMs like me.  I'm fairly sure I can translate a D&D adventure over with little difficulty, but I am lazy.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 2, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> Just want to say you're a rat bastard, taking money right out of my wallet.  Yeesh the main book and now 3 supplements.  If I can't get them at my store I guess I'll get them off your site, but the sale is in the bag.



hehe...  I'll take that as a compliment.  


			
				Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> Still overall this is an inexpensive game.  The main book was like 30$ and that's all you need.  The monster book, combat book, and magic book look to be 20$ a pop so if you get all those its 90$ the basics of D&D cost that and with expansions I'm much more in the hole for it.  And quite frankly I like this system more.



Just wait until you see the next book (Loot: A Field Guide -- which has a Nodwick cover). We are currently waiting for art to come in so that we can do the final pagemaking.  It was written by Jonathon Cassie, an excellent author. You are sure to enjoy it.


			
				Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> Side question are any adventures planned for terminally lazy DMs like me.  I'm fairly sure I can translate a D&D adventure over with little difficulty, but I am lazy.



Eventually yes. We even have a deal going with a third party who will work with us for creating adventures, but first we have to get Cyradon finished.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 2, 2004)

Oh! Shard! Here is the sneak peek page that shows the cover of the upcoming book, *Loot: A Field Guide* --> http://www.harphq.com/SneakPeek/3004_main.htm

It shows the nodwick cover very well, I think.

If you want a sneak peek of a monster from *Monsters: A Field Guide*, then I would suggest the following link. However, this was before done before the final layout of the book was done, so the printed book may be slightly different. 
http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/3002_Nightlordstats.pdf

I will figure out a good  preview from College of Magics and post it up here later today.


----------



## Mandos (Dec 2, 2004)

A few thoughts from a "switcher":

After 20 more years playing D&D, I grew frustrated with 3rd Edition, searched for a new system and found HARP: great system at the start, takes time to figure some of the things but easy to go on after that, great flexibility, wonderful magic system, fast PC and NPC creation.

And so I went back to try to figure out how to build interesting modules, instead of calculating endlessly the best combos for my NPCs and dealing with my hungry players always wanting the latest (and more powerful) Prestige Classe, that doesn't fit at all in my setting.

From there, I also decided to go back to an old setting, Middle Earth, and convert HARP rules to fit to this wonderful universe. Let's say conversion is a breeze, as Classes, Training Packages, Cultures and even Races are easy to create or customize.

Games are flowing wonderfully since we switched, with nervous and nasty fights, some nice RP opportunities mixed with some rule aspects we had forgotten a bit: finding herbs or dealing them, approaching groups to get some specific Training Packages, etc.


Thanks Rasyr, because after having written the rules, you support them by your (when do you sleep?) presence on the boards. That has been one of the facts that made me switch, and now my group is hooked and we're hoping for a great future for HARP.


(PS: excuse my poor english, native french here . A shameless plug for french speaking readers: here's my website with the Middle Earth - HARP conversion: http://www.harp-tdm.com/).


----------



## Akrasia (Dec 2, 2004)

Mandos said:
			
		

> ... A shameless plug for french speaking readers: here's my website with the Middle Earth - HARP conversion: http://www.harp-tdm.com/).




That's one sweet site, Mandos!  (My french is a bit shakey, as an Anglo-Canadian living in 'the States', but I can read it well enough to appreciate its excellence.)

I've got lots of great old ICE Middle-earth stuff sitting around.  Although the MERP system did not capture Middle-earth perfectly -- especially in its magic system -- those modules are pretty amazing.  The ones by Graham Staplehurst and Terry Amthor are especially good IMO (though Amthor deviated far more from the spirit of Tolkien than Staplehurst).  I still think that Staplehurst's Minas Tirith is the best city book around.

If I ever run a Middle-earth campaign again (fingers crossed), I will probably use HARP (ripping stuff off from your site with impunity).  This will be ironic, given Rasyr's stated dislike for Tolkien.  (Bloody philistine!)

I like HARP a lot, but for the time being I'll be going with Castles and Crusades, since it fits my style and campaign much better.  (And there is the pragmatic consideration that, being based on D&D, is is more familiar to my current players, so the transition pains will be less severe.)  But if I ever return to the realm of Endor, I'll give HARP a go.

(BTW Rasyr, given the fact that 95 percent of fantasy role-players are somewhat fond of Tolkien, it may not be in your interest to advertise so boldly your dislike for his stuff.  It's kinda like trying to promote a science fiction RPG while criticizing _both _ Star Wars and Star Trek.    )


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Dec 2, 2004)

did I mention I'm a gaiming addict, college of magics kicks booty haven't had a chance to go through martial law yet which I also picked up but college of magics was well worth by money.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 2, 2004)

Gah! I hate being sick! Had this stupid flu bug for three days now. This is the longest I have been sick in years (normally get sick in the afternoon and better by next morning, and usually happens on the weekend to - go figure..)


			
				Mandos said:
			
		

> Games are flowing wonderfully since we switched, with nervous and nasty fights, some nice RP opportunities mixed with some rule aspects we had forgotten a bit: finding herbs or dealing them, approaching groups to get some specific Training Packages, etc.



Glad to hear it!


			
				Mandos said:
			
		

> Thanks Rasyr, because after having written the rules, you support them by your (when do you sleep?) presence on the boards. That has been one of the facts that made me switch, and now my group is hooked and we're hoping for a great future for HARP.



Sleep? I seem to remember something called sleep, but the memory is very hazy...

And your welcome! Iffen I won't support my game, how can I expect others to do so (besides, I am still in shock over writing a whole game (see my comments in the introduction - 192 page version of HARP).


			
				Mandos said:
			
		

> (PS: excuse my poor english, native french here . A shameless plug for french speaking readers: here's my website with the Middle Earth - HARP conversion: http://www.harp-tdm.com/).



Excellent looking website! I did notice something about the Hobbits though. Normally races have 60 points divided among Endurance and Power Points, and 30 divided among the RRs. You have only 30 in Endurance, and 45 divided among the RRs. For the Hobbits, you might want to increase their Stamina RR bonus to 25 and their Will RR bonus to 20. I think that would be more inline with how Hobbits are portrayed.


			
				Akrasia said:
			
		

> I've got lots of great old ICE Middle-earth stuff sitting around.



I have a lot of the MERP modules sitting on the shelves. They are great modules in and of themselves, and easily convertable to other settings.


			
				Akrasia said:
			
		

> If I ever run a Middle-earth campaign again (fingers crossed), I will probably use HARP (ripping stuff off from your site with impunity).  This will be ironic, given Rasyr's stated dislike for Tolkien.  (Bloody philistine!)



Ok, so I am an opinionated sot!   Seriously though, if you want to use HARP for running a Middle Earth game, more power to you!!


			
				Akrasia said:
			
		

> I like HARP a lot, but for the time being I'll be going with Castles and Crusades, since it fits my style and campaign much better.  (And there is the pragmatic consideration that, being based on D&D, is is more familiar to my current players, so the transition pains will be less severe.)  But if I ever return to the realm of Endor, I'll give HARP a go.



woohoo!!


			
				Akrasia said:
			
		

> (BTW Rasyr, given the fact that 95 percent of fantasy role-players are somewhat fond of Tolkien, it may not be in your interest to advertise so boldly your dislike for his stuff.  It's kinda like trying to promote a science fiction RPG while criticizing _both _ Star Wars and Star Trek.    )



Personally, I dislike (to some degree) any setting based on a book or movie as I feel that too many folks are interested in retelling the stories from the books/movies rather then telling their own stories (through gaming). This generalized dislike is heightened with settings where there were EPIC events (i.e. the LOTR trilogy) that change the face of the setting. This steals the limelight from the players, IMO. 

As for Star Wars, you have basically the same problems as gaming in Middle Earth. All of the EPIC events are played out by a small band of characters. Star Trek on the other hand is a setting built for exploration and adventure, and the stories told about it just happen to be about a famous group(s) and need not be something that affects the whole galaxy (like the events of the first three Star Wars). In Star Trek, there is lots to do and lots of places to go. Nor do you have to actually play members of Star Fleet. You could be traders or explorers who have gone out beyond the boundries of known space.

And please notice, that I tend to not bring Tolkien up myself, though I will respond. 



			
				Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> did I mention I'm a gaiming addict, college of magics kicks booty haven't had a chance to go through martial law yet which I also picked up but college of magics was well worth by money.



hehe glad you liked it.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 3, 2004)

*College of Magics Sample*

Okay, I promised some sort of sample from College of Magics, so here it is.

The first part is a PDF, in it I have 5 pages that I extracted from College of Magics for you to view. It includes the descriptions  of the different types of mages, a couple of skills, some item creation examples. I hope that you enjoy it.

You can get the Sampler from the following link --> http://www.ironcrown.com/harp2/CoMSampler.pdf

The second sample is one of the Item Creation spells, which I am posting here.


```
[b]IMBUE SPELL[/b]
[b]PP COST:[/b] 12
[b]RANGE:[/b] Touch
[b]DURATION:[/b] 1 day
[b]SPELL TYPE:[/b] Utility
[b]RR:[/b] -
[b]SPHERES:[/b] Thaumaturge
[b]DESCRIPTION:[/b] The caster may imbue an item with a spell matrix 
capable of holding a spell of up to 5 PP, with the eventual aim of creating 
a Daily spell item. This spell must be cast multiple times with each "batch" 
for each time per day that the item is supposed to function (i.e. a Daily 
II item requires this spell to be cast twice for each batch of castings). 
This spell has three special scaling options:
[b]Increase Matrix Potency:[/b] This allows higher-powered spells to be 
added to items that are created and enchanted at the same time, on a 
1 for 1 PP basis.
[b]Constant Effect: [/b]Instead of creating a Daily Item, the use of this 
option will enable the caster to enchant an item with a constant effect. 
This option must be used on each day of the enchantment process.
[b]Trigger Effect:[/b] Instead of creating a Daily Item, the use of this 
option will enable the caster to enchant an item with a semi-constant 
effect. The effect will be active only as long a certain condition is 
met. The condition must be something that is built into the item that 
is easily doable, such as purposely touching a specific stud on a handle 
or using a feature of the item to cause specific bits of the item to touch, 
activating the effect.
[b]"At Will" Effect:[/b] Instead of creating a Daily Item, the use of this 
option will enable the caster to enchant an item with an effect which can 
be used “at will” by its wielder or wearer. This option must be used on 
each day of the enchantment process.
[b]SCALING OPTIONS:[/b]
Increase Duration (per +1 day) 		+1 PP
Increase Imprint (per sigil imprint) 	+2 PP
Enchant Existing Non-magical Item 	+10 PP
Enchant Existing Magical Item 		+20 PP
Increase Matrix Potency (per extra PP) 	+1 PP
Constant Effect 			+20 PP
Trigger Effect 				+10 PP
"At Will" Effect 			+20 PP
```

Any more comments or questions?


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 3, 2004)

Ok, later this afternoon (after I make a few small corrections to the layout/pagemaking), we will be posting the very first issue of *HARPer's Bazaar*, a quaterly (I may be moving this to bi-monthly) pdf product that contains various odds and ends of things for HARP.

This first issue contains two new races, two new cultures, Blood Talents for a number of monsters from the HARP rulebook, a new take on Life Points, some new combat styles, and several new magic items. All for the low price of $2. 

I will post a link to it once it is available for purchase.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 3, 2004)

HARPer's Bazaar is now available for those who are interested.

http://store.ironcrown.com/detail.jsp?itemId=93864&category=23190


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 4, 2004)

Any more comments or questions? 

Anyone?

Anyone?


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Dec 5, 2004)

I may have a couple ?'s or coments tomorrow or the next day I'm reading up on changing classes, and am trying to work out the benefits or negatives for a mage specialist to change to another mage specialist over just picking up access to that sphere of magic.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 5, 2004)

Okay, cool! I will await your questions.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 6, 2004)

okay, so while waiting for Shard O'Glase to post his comments/questions, does anybody else have any questions or comments to make?


----------



## Greatwyrm (Dec 6, 2004)

Two questions for you.

Even though I wasn't really sold on Rolemaster, one thing I liked was the depth of the product line.  It seems like they've got a book for everything.  How hard is it to convert stuff from the Rolemaster spells, creatures, or whatever to HARP?

Second, do you have plans to develop HARP for non-fantasy games, like modern-day or sci-fi.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 6, 2004)

Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> Two questions for you.



Ok, then I give you  two answers as well. 


			
				Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> Even though I wasn't really sold on Rolemaster, one thing I liked was the depth of the product line.  It seems like they've got a book for everything.  How hard is it to convert stuff from the Rolemaster spells, creatures, or whatever to HARP?



Conversion should be a relatively easy process as both systems use some of the same concepts at their core, although implemented in a different manner.

For example, spells lists from RM you could most likely use as they are, with a just a little reworking on the costs.

Arms Law can be used with HARP with only minor adjustments.

Monsters - can be readily used. However, monsters in RM used much different methods for their creation, and will often be less powerful than HARP monsters. The simple solution here is to compare a few of the HARP and RM monsters, and to just work out an average bonus to give to RM monsters to bring them closer to being inline with the power level of HARP monsters (which are built as Fighters - yes, all monsters in HARP are built just like PCs are built).

Magic items - the only conversion needed here is anything that produces a spell-like effect of some sort and not always even then.



			
				Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> Second, do you have plans to develop HARP for non-fantasy games, like modern-day or sci-fi.



Yes, Nick Caldwell (who authored College of Magics for HARP, Mentalism Companion, and Construct Companion for  RM) is in the process of authoring a sci-fi version of HARP. 

Now, while ICE has no plans on doing a Modern version of HARP, we have received interest from at least one person who would like to license HARP and do a modern version themselves. We have also received several other license request for various different settings (all very interesting).

I also have a couple of modern era type game ideas sitting in the back of my brain gathering dust (each is actually a combined setting/game idea, but highly specialized in nature) and those may see the light of day in a few years once we have the resources to further develop them.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Dec 6, 2004)

Ok I'll ask my ?'s as I'm going along in character creation.  Class necromancer mwahahahahah.
I chose to use the rolling method mwahahah.  My rolls are 91, 56 booh, 61, 87, 91, 100, 81, 96.  Really good rolls I think.  Being a necromancer I want my SD at 100, insight I'll put at 96, reason 91, quickenss 91(the not getting hit stat), 86 in constitution, 81 in presense, 61 in agility, and 56 in strength.  So 48x2 96 DP.

I'll be human and spend 2 DP(this seems low) on Dwarf greater my stat boosts for human will be +3 in SD, +2 in insight, and +3 in reason from dwarf I get another +2 in SD from dwarf and +2 in con as well.  I assume this only effect future DP not my curent DP.  So I know have a 105 SD, a 98 insight, 93 reason, and a 89 con. I'll take dark vision greater and dense musculature(mainly for the +5DB).  My +10 bonus in a skill for human I'll put in PP development.

I have 94 DP left and I know 40 are going to eloquence ouch.  Leaving 54 only.  But hey I'll being an urban dweller and get some snazzy low end skills from my youth. 2 in appraisal, 1 in armor, 3 in crafts lets see lets go with 3 ranks in goldsmith 1 in endurance, 1 in healing, 1 in jumping, 2 lore local area, 1, navigation, 1 perception, 1 runes, 1 stalking and hiding, 2 in swiming(rememebr dense musculature penalty) 2 in weapon skills mellee so 2 in dagger, for missile 1 in dagger.

Now as much as I'd like to pick up more spell option that's 25 points I don't have right now.  So another couple ranks in perception for 4 DP so a total of 3 ranks in perception, 2 ranks in each resistance costs 12 points, 2 more ranks in endurance cost 4 more points, taking the apprentice mage package gets me alchemy at 2 ranks, arcane lore(spells) 3 ranks, cantrips 3 ranks, PP development 2 ranks, resistance any 3 ranks(divided among the 3 equally) runes 2 ranks, spell casting 5 ranks in various spells.  The package will cost 30 points leaving as of now 4 points which will be in more spells so 7 ranks total in spells, I'll put 4 ranks in inflict injury so I have an attack spell and 3 ranks in boost quickness.  I also have my professions base skills which I'l too lazy to type out now but yes I'll have more spells and likely more PP develoment.

When I level up I get 53 DP to spend now I'm a addict for more spell lists I could A spend 25 points on arcane circle thaumaturge(I like item creation almost as much as necromancy) at which point form now on I can freely choose from this list when learning or improving spells or B change classes for 15 points cause I'm human to thamaturge and I gain the master crafstman talent and access to the thamaturge spell list though at this level I don't have access to the necromancy spell list.  Is all this roughly accurate.


----------



## Sado (Dec 6, 2004)

I have obtained a copy of HARP but have since discovered that there are two versions, the 160 page original (the one I have) and a longer revised edition.  Am I going to need to get the revised rulebook? How much of the original is useable?


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 6, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> I'll be human and spend 2 DP(this seems low) on Dwarf greater my stat boosts for human will be +3 in SD, +2 in insight, and +3 in reason from dwarf I get another +2 in SD from dwarf and +2 in con as well.  I assume this only effect future DP not my curent DP.  So I know have a 105 SD, a 98 insight, 93 reason, and a 89 con. I'll take dark vision greater and dense musculature(mainly for the +5DB).  My +10 bonus in a skill for human I'll put in PP development.



The stat bonuses from the Greater Blood Talent add to the stat's total bonus, not to the stat itself. So your stats stay the same, and so do your Development Points.

Additionally, you are taking 3 racial abilities from the Dwarven Blood Talent (Greater), not the 2 you are allowed. Each bullet point is an individual ability that can be gained, thus from the Dwarven Blood Talent you can select two of the following:
1) Dense Musculature
2) Dark Vision (Greater)
3) Stone Sense
4) Stats and age averaging.

Whe you select two, you must trade them out for two of the racial abilities for the base race. Your example Has you keeping the +10 bonus. This means that you are giving up the Professional Adaptability (thus you pay 20 DP for an Additional Profession, not 15, as that discount comes from this ability), and the Bonus Skill Ranks.


			
				Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> I could A spend 25 points on arcane circle thaumaturge(I like item creation almost as much as necromancy) at which point form now on I can freely choose from this list when learning or improving spells or B change classes for 15 points cause I'm human to thamaturge and I gain the master crafstman talent and access to the thamaturge spell list though at this level I don't have access to the necromancy spell list.  Is all this roughly accurate.



Looks good except for what I pointed out above.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 6, 2004)

Sado said:
			
		

> I have obtained a copy of HARP but have since discovered that there are two versions, the 160 page original (the one I have) and a longer revised edition.  Am I going to need to get the revised rulebook? How much of the original is useable?




If you decide to get the revised rulebook, email customer service at ICE first, and talk with Lori as you are eligible for a $15 discount (this discount can actually be applied to ANY print version of ICE products). She will verify that you have the first printing  and then give you your discount.

However, all the changes and additions to the rulebook (for the revision) can be downloaded from the HARP website. Just go to http://www.harphq.com/webextras.htm#revisions and check out the various PDFs in the HARP Revised section.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 7, 2004)

For those insterested in possibly getting a free copy of the HARP pdf, please check out the following link: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=109621

Thanks.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 8, 2004)

Over on rpg.net somebody asked a few questions about HARP and a thread was born!

During the discussions, somebody asked me how much it would cost to get all 4 of the currently published HARP books.

You can get all four as part of a PDF value pack for $38, and in my answer to this fellow, I figured out that you can get all four HARP books (in print format!!!) for as little as $41!!!

Rather than repost all that here (I was in Ron Popeil Imitation mode when I made the post, so it wasn't pretty....), I give you the link to that thread so that you can go read it for yourself....    http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=161125


----------



## Zoatebix (Dec 8, 2004)

Oh man, I saw that infomercial on food network just the other day.

Anyways, that deal's almost too tempting to pass up, but my current rash of unchecked gaming purcahses will have to stop until I get a paycheck or three over Winter break.  A car repair will do that to a gaming addict's habbits.

It just occurred to me that I could get some exercise and walk $30 of d20 stuff over to Goodman St (I'm a UVA student).  Weird... meeting people who's posts I've read on EN World   I think I've been subconsciously avoiding Alderman for fear of meeting Cthulu's Librarian for the first time and not having a piece of cool gaming news to share 

Although this is definately off topic, I noticed the brief mention of Monte Cook on the first or second page of the thread - dare I ask what happened to turn your opinion of him sour?
-George

Edit for clarity:  I'm referring to the "venom" comment in post 12.


----------



## nahualt (Dec 8, 2004)

*D20 for Harp Stuff??*

First:
Okay I already own Harp and MArtial Law, ANd so far  I love it.

Second: Can I trade any d20 book or does it have to be official WOTC books?

3.0 or 3.5?

cause I got a lot of d20 crap lying around...


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 8, 2004)

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Oh man, I saw that infomercial on food network just the other day.



I watched some special about him on tv the other night, and when I wrote that post over on rpg.net, it just bubbled out (I was apparently channeling him to some extent...


			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Anyways, that deal's almost too tempting to pass up, but my current rash of unchecked gaming purcahses will have to stop until I get a paycheck or three over Winter break. A car repair will do that to a gaming addict's habbits.



hehe.. Understandable...


			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> It just occurred to me that I could get some exercise and walk $30 of d20 stuff over to Goodman St (I'm a UVA student).  Weird... meeting people who's posts I've read on EN World   I think I've been subconsciously avoiding Alderman for fear of meeting Cthulu's Librarian for the first time and not having a piece of cool gaming news to share



From the Walking Mall, so south on Avon until you get to Spudnuts (Graves St.), take Graves St. all the way back until it dead-ends into Goodman St. ICE is the building to the left of the one directly across from the end of Graves. Visitors are always welcome!

No need to fear Cthulhu's Librarian. He is a good guy and easy to talk to. He even gave ICE a hand by delivering the books we donated to the Psi Phi Club (the UVA gaming club) a few months ago.


			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Although this is definately off topic, I noticed the brief mention of Monte Cook on the first or second page of the thread - dare I ask what happened to turn your opinion of him sour?



A number of things actually, none of which I plan on discussing in a public forum, sorry.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 8, 2004)

nahualt said:
			
		

> First:
> Okay I already own Harp and MArtial Law, ANd so far  I love it.
> 
> Second: Can I trade any d20 book or does it have to be official WOTC books?
> ...



The trade-in deal is only for print copies of HARP, sorry. 

However, if you do want a second copy of HARP, then the only requirements for the trade-in deal is that it carries the d20 logo, and that it be in good condition.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 8, 2004)

Just up today. On the ICE and HARP websites, anybody who places an order with ICE btween December 1, 2004 and December 19, 2004 is automatically entered into a drawing and the winner gets $100. Go to http://www.harphq.com/ and check it out!


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 9, 2004)

So! Any more comments or questions?


----------



## philreed (Dec 10, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> The trade-in deal is only for print copies of HARP, sorry.
> 
> However, if you do want a second copy of HARP, then the only requirements for the trade-in deal is that it carries the d20 logo, and that it be in good condition.




So no HARP supplements are eligible for the trade-in deal?


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 10, 2004)

philreed said:
			
		

> So no HARP supplements are eligible for the trade-in deal?



Sorry, but no. The deal is for the HARP core rulebook only. However, I will go ahead an talk to my boss to see about the possibility of expanding the deal (would have to tailor the trade-in to each book if he goes for the idea).


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 11, 2004)

Okay, Friday was a busy day and we did not get a chance to discuss opening up the offer to other products, but we have scheduled to discuss it on Monday morning.

In the meantime, any more comments or questions?


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 15, 2004)

philreed said:
			
		

> So no HARP supplements are eligible for the trade-in deal?



Okay, I asked and sorry, but no, the trade-in deal is not usable for other HARP products, only the core rulebook. THe trade-in deal is a way to attempt to get folks to try HARP out. Using it for supplements does not support that goal. Sorry.

Two other things - 

1) You may have seen the other thread,, but I think it bears repeating - ICE currently has the pdf version of the HARP core rules on sale until January 3rd, 2005 for only $2 (USD). This offers you a chance to check out HARP with very little risk. You can find it here --> http://store.ironcrown.com/detail.jsp?itemId=96405&category=23190

Our webmistress is also supposed to put the sale on RPGNow as well, but she hasn't accomplished this yet. Hopefully she will have it done tomorrow.

2) ICE presents to you, a free 2 page PDF (featuring artwork by Jeff Laubenstein) giving you the stats for Santa Claus! You can either go to http:www.harphq.com and get it (as well as check out our other deals there), or you can download it directly from the following link: http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/HARP-Santa.pdf

Enjoy!! And Happy Holidays!


----------



## Nikosandros (Dec 15, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Conversion should be a relatively easy process as both systems use some of the same concepts at their core, although implemented in a different manner.
> 
> For example, spells lists from RM you could most likely use as they are, with a just a little reworking on the costs.
> 
> Arms Law can be used with HARP with only minor adjustments.




Is there any plan to publish something, maybe a PDF, with conversion and adaptation guidelines?


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 16, 2004)

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> Is there any plan to publish something, maybe a PDF, with conversion and adaptation guidelines?



One of ICE's fans has already created one which can be found here -> http://www.harphq.com/vault.htm#systemconversions

That conversion looks pretty much complete, and I am not sure I could do much better for one.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 17, 2004)

Any other questions or comments?


----------



## Nikosandros (Dec 17, 2004)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> One of ICE's fans has already created one which can be found here -> http://www.harphq.com/vault.htm#systemconversions
> 
> That conversion looks pretty much complete, and I am not sure I could do much better for one.




I was actually thinking about suggestions on how integrate parts of RM (e.g. Arms Law) in HARP.

Thanks for all your answers!


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 17, 2004)

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> I was actually thinking about suggestions on how integrate parts of RM (e.g. Arms Law) in HARP.
> 
> Thanks for all your answers!



Ahh...

now that is easier to do hehe... You ought to check out the ICE forums, there have been lots of answers given to that. And I guess that I could whip up something as a downloadable PDF to cover that as well.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 18, 2004)

Any more comments or questions?


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 18, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Depending on your schedule and stuff would it be possible for you to display on here a good combat scene between a couple of characters... a dwarf fighter and elf ranger against a group of 4 goblins as they are stated in HARP?  I ask because the monster writeups are confusing to me and if I can see an example on here (and I might not be alone but for others who might be interested in how a combat would resolve but don't have the book) it might make them easier to understand.
> 
> If you can't then that's cool, I'll eventually figure it out.




This will likely take several days to accomplish (the combat example). As I explained in the other thread, I had one for the original printing of HARP, but it became invalid because of the changes/additions in the revision (the basics are still the same, but the end results differ.

But I will start off explaining the monster stats a little bit more so that hopefully you can understand them a bit better. I will start off by listing one of the monsters, the Giant Ant (those who played in the games I ran at the DC Game Day will remember these critters very well...... hehehe...


```
[b]Name		Lvl	Size	BMR	Init	DB	Hits	Attacks	[/b]
Ant, Giant	2	S	10	20	90	85	70 S-Slash

[b]# Enc 	Outlook	Treasure	Stamina	Will	Magic[/b]
2-20	Hungry	PNP		50	35	35
```
Okay, I have split the line into two here to save space. Now for the rest of the Giant Ant's information.


```
[b]ANT, GIANT[/b]
Giant ants are much like regular ants only 1-2' in length. They attack using 
their powerful pincer-like mandibles. Giant Ants will almost always be found 
in groups. These range from small groups of 2-20 out on specific missions 
for the nest such as gathering food or supplies for up to as many as 2000 
in a large nest.
[b]Abilities –[/b] Blazing Speed; Survival Instinct; Tough Hide (Greater)
[b]IQ –[/b] Giant Ants are capable of working together in limited ways, but 
are not really intelligent. They will often work to surround foes. 
[b]DB –[/b] +20 Stats; +10 Survival Instinct; +60 Tough Hide (Greater) 
[b]Skills –[/b] Perception (9) 55; Climbing (9) 60; Tracking (4) 30
```
And finally, its "racial" stat bonuses

```
Racial Stat Modifiers	 				
Name		St	Co	Ag	Qu	SD	Re	In	Pr	
Ant, Giant	+3	+4	+2	+5	+0	+0	+0	+0	

		Power	Resistance Bonuses
Endurance	Points	Stamina	Will	Magic
25		—	25	15	15
```
These are on page 148, 150, & 156 respectively.

Okay, starting with its Racial Stat Modifiers. These are, you will note, exactly like the stat modifiers for the PC races. This is done so that you may customize the monsters however you like. While a Giant Ant is not likely to be anything other than a Fighter, (ALL the mosters are created as Fighters!!), for other Monsters you could make mages, clerics, Monks, or any other profession that is available. This also gives a consistency to the monsters as well. I won't describe everything in this section unless somebody asks specifically.

Okay, now back to the top, with the entry from the Creature Statistics table (the first bit from the book).

The first item in the entry is the name of the creature. That one is simple, I know, but I included it here for completeness.

Next up is "Lvl". This is the creature's level. The Giant Ant as a Lvl of 2. This means that it is a second level Fighter.

The next entry is "Size" and the Giant Ant has a size of "Small". This means that in relation to a human it is small. From the description in the second code block, you can see that the Giant Ant is only 1'-2' in length.

The next entry is "BMR". This is the creature's Base Movement Rate. Having a BMR of 10 tells you that this critter can move about as fast as most humans (and possibly faster) when moving at a walk. Of course, creatures, like PCs, can also move at a greater Pace, with a maximum of 5x their BMR. And just like PCs, actions performed while moving at a higher pace are more difficult to  perfom. Part of its Base Movement Rate comes from its Special Ability (the equivalent of racial talents) of Blazing Speed.

Our next entry is "Init". This is the creature's initiative modifier, and it is figured exactly the same as  a player character's is figured. However, this is the first instance where rounding comes into play. Many of the numbers for the monsters were rounded off to the nearest multiple of 5 to make things easier for the GM.

The next item in the entry is "DB". This is the creature's Defensive Bonus. This number (also rounded off) is subtracted from all attacks made against the Giant Ant. In the second code block, you can see a breakdown of where that DB comes from.  You will notice that two of the sources of DB also come from  the Special Abilities entries (Survival Instinct and Tough Hide (Greater)).  Those special abilities are defined and detailed on page 155.

The next entry is "Hits". Obviously, this is how many hit points that the creature has. All monsters have the maximum possible number of ranks in the Endurance skill for their level (in this case, 9 rank). So the rank bonus (+45), the stat bonus (+14 total) and their racial bonus (+25) gives us a total of 84, which is rounded up to 85.

The next entry is  "Attacks". As the description says, the Giant Ants attack with their "powerful pincer-like mandibles". This does a Slash attack, so the entry reads 70 S-Slash. This means that the attack size is Small, and that the Giant Ant has a bonus of +70 to their attack rolls. Again, remember that monsters are built as Fighters, so they get the professional bonuses of Fighters as well, including the +10 to one weapon skill (their natural attack in this case).  If there is more than one attack listed, the creature may select which attack to use. Creatures do not automatically get more than one attack per round if there is more than one attack listed.

The next entry is "# Enc" which stands for "the number normally encountered at one time". In the case of Giant Ants, this is anywhere between 2 & 20 at any given time. The guys who played in the DC Game Day can attest that even 8 of these small critters (which is how many they faced) are pretty deadly. bwah-hah-ha!

Nest, is the "Outlook" of the creature. This gives you, the GM, the creature's general motivation if they are encountered. For the Giant Ants, this Outlook is "Hungry" which basically says that they will attack anything that they think is edible. That includes the PCs and their horses... 

Next is "Treasure". This is the type of treause that the creature is likely to have. Of course, for Giant Ants, any treasure that they have will likely be inside their stomachs, or in their nest (which as the description tells you can hold up to 2000 of the little beasties!!).

The final three entries are "Stamina", "Will", and "Magic". These are the bonuses that the creature has when it is required to make a Resistance Roll (RR). For example, one player uses poison on his blade and attacks a Giant Ant. The Ant would then have to make a Stamina based RR against the poison. He gets to add the number listed under Stamina to that roll.

The creature description (second code block) also gives a little bit more info on the Giant Ants. Including its "IQ" which basically tells about its general intelligence, and some skills, such as Perception and Tracking. The skill entries consist of two numbers. The number in parenthesis is the number of ranks that the Ant has in that skill, and the second number is its total bonus for that skill.

When running a combat, you will be most insterested in the Init, DB, Hits, and Attacks, and perhaps the RR bonuses (if there is a spell user among the PCs).

Well, I think that is enough for one post. 

Any questions so far?


----------



## Man-thing (Dec 18, 2004)

Good so far, please continue


----------



## Acid_crash (Dec 18, 2004)

I like the book and all, but I have to ask... why use this kind of layout?  

Wouldn't it make more sense to just have all the pertinant stats in each creature description instead of having them spread out on three seperate locations???

And thank you for the information, I had completely overlooked the two pages of tables that detail the creature more.  Now I know where to look.  

and jokingly speaking, but ya should have had a detailed combat example in the book, examples really help to understand the system...and a system as detailed as this definately needs the help.  I have never heard of or played Rolemaster so I don't know the similarities between the two, but HARP, it seems pretty detailed to me as far as combat goes.   

Thanks for a cool game.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 19, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> I like the book and all, but I have to ask... why use this kind of layout?
> 
> Wouldn't it make more sense to just have all the pertinant stats in each creature description instead of having them spread out on three seperate locations???



In short, space. The layout used does save a good amount of space (I tried an alternate layout, which took up about three times as many pages).

 The first table, on page 148 has all the information you need to run a combat. The descriptions haave the other information needed. and the racial stats table has the information needed to make alternate versions.

Be sure to check out Jonathon Dale's excel sheet chargen. It is extremely useful!!



			
				Acid_crash said:
			
		

> And thank you for the information, I had completely overlooked the two pages of tables that detail the creature more.  Now I know where to look.



 Now granted, HARP isn't perfect (I believe that no game is). But HARP does contain the basics needed to play, along with the basic tools needed to resolve any situation not covered by what is included.


			
				Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Thanks for a cool game.



Your welcome.


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 20, 2004)

Any comments or questions while I am working on the next step here?


----------



## Rasyr (Dec 26, 2004)

Okay, this is small sample of combat. It is an overview of how combat works in general. I hope that it meets what you were looking for.

Our first combatant:

```
[b]Phredric[/b] - Human Fighter Level 1
[b]Hits:[/b] 72 [b]PP:[/b] 10 [b]Init:[/b] +15 [b]DB:[/b] +81 [b]BMR:[/b] 11
[b]RR Bonuses:[/b] 
	[b]Stamina[/b] +33 [b]Will[/b] +21 [b]Magic[/b] +19
[b]Weapon Skills:[/b] 
	Long Blades (Long Sword):	+68  
	Bows(Long Bow):			+48  
[b]Armor:[/b] Soft Leather (+20), Normal Shield (+25)
```

Our second combatant:

```
[b]Theone – Human Rogue Level 1
[b]Hits:[/b]  68  [b]PP:[/b]  15  [b]Init:[/b]  +13	[b]DB:[/b] +44	[b]BMR:[/b] 11
[b]RR Bonuses:[/b]    
	[b]Stamina[/b]  +23  [b]Will[/b]  +23  [b]Magic[/b]  +27
[b]Weapon Skills:[/b] 
	Clubs (Mace):		+41 
	Bows (Short Bow):	+36 
[b]Armor:[/b] Studded Leather (+30)
```

And now their foes - a couple (2) of Giant Ants....


```
[b]Name		Lvl	Size	BMR	Init	DB	Hits	Attacks	[/b]
Ant, Giant	2	S	10	20	90	85	70 S-Slash

[b]# Enc 	Outlook	Treasure	Stamina	Will	Magic[/b]
2-20	Hungry	PNP		50	35	35
```

The above is all that is really needed to run combats with the Giant Ants....

Ok, on to the example....

Phredric and Theone are travelling together and decide to take a short-cut through an old forest which will cut off three days from their trip between towns. They both scoffed at the notion of monsters in the forest, thinking that the tales are just used to scare children from the neighboring village, to keep them from wandering in it and getting lost.

The forest is large enough that it is going to take them about two days to get all the way through it. The first day goes by without incident. 

The GM, using the guidelines starting on page 145 rolls every 4 hours for encounters while the two buddies are walking. They are walking (no modifier), it is Wilderness (use the Wilderness column for Encounter modifiers), it is a Clear day (+10 modifier), it is a Hostile area (+25 modifier), and the terrain is Forest & flat(-25 modifier) for a total of +10 for all rolls during the first day of walking.

Since they walked the entire day, the GM determines that he needs to make 4 rolls for encounters that first day. He rolls the following: 37, 29, 04, 56. None of these rolls are above 100 with the +10 modifier added, so no encounters happen.

That night, they camp for 11 hours (2 encounter rolls - one every 6 hours of camping). The modifiers here are the same as above, except that the party is camped. THe Gm rolls a 75 and a 60, neither of which gives a total of 100 or greater, so no encounter.

The second day, the GM rolls again for encounters with the same modifiers (+10). He rolls a 50, 26, 92, and a 03. Adding in the modifiers, the GM determines that Phredric and Theone will have an encounter during the third group of 4 hours while they march (92 + 10 > 100 = encounter).

The GM next rolls for Indirect (i.e. one spots the other) or Direct (close up meeting), and rolls an 89, which indicates a Direct Encounter. The GM now rolls on the Encounter table (page 146). He uses the Wilderness (Normal) column as that best matches the area in which the two adventurers are. The GM rolls a 91, which indicates a monster encounter. Looking at the Monsters and Terrain table on page 147, the GM decides that the encounter will be with Giant Ants (the GM ALWAYS decides what the encounter will be against - there is no random rolling for this as the encounter should always match what the GM determines should be in the area in which an encounter occurs).

Since he has determined the encounter, the GM then describes the scene to his players

_Phredric and Theone are walking down the forest trail, quietly talking and enjoying the scenery, when the follow the trail around a large boulder. Ten feet down the trail, seemingly arguing over the corpse of a small squirrel are two Giant Ants. The ants look up as you round the boulder, and begin chittering excitedly, and start approaching you slowly._

The GM has decided that both sides will be equally surprised at the other, so decides not to have them roll for it. Instead, he sets the situation so that that party will have time to draw their weapons before the first round of combat begins.

The GM tells the players that they have time to draw their weapons before the ants reach them, and then asks them to declare their actions for the upcoming round.

*Phredric:* I will use a half parry, and attack with the other half of my OB until I find out how tough these things are. This makes my OB 34 and DB a 115 while doing this. (OB 68, half (34) moved to DB of 81 = 115)

*Theone:* I will use a full parry until I figure out how tough they are. I don't have a shield like Phredric does. This gives me a DB of 95 (DB 44 + OB 41 moved to DB + 10 for full parry = 95).

*GM:* The Giant Ants are going to attack, one on each of you as you guys both look very tasty to them. Okay, roll for initiative now. 1d10, plus your init bonus.

Phredric rolls a 9 for a total init of 24, Theone rolls a 9 as well for a total init of 22. Giant Ant #1 (GA1 - going against Phredric) rolls a 3 for an init of 23, and Giant Ant #2 (GA2 - going against Theone) rolls a 4 for a total init of 24. The order for resolution is as follows:

GA2 (24) (it has a total quickness bonus of +10)
Phredric (24) (He has a total quickness bonus of +7)
GA1 (23)
Theone (22)

*Note:* Rolling for init is 1d10 plus init bonus. However some GMs may want to change this to 2d10 if they feel that this does not have enough of a random element in it.

*Round 1*

Since Theone is doing a Full Parry, he does not get to attack this round, however, he does have to roll to make sure he does not fumble, and lose his parrying bonuses. Theone rolls a 97! He did not fumble, in fact he rolled open-ended. We will resolve the rest of this on his normal turn.

GA2 attacks Theone. The GM rolls a 27 for an attack roll of 97 (Giant Ants have an OB of 70). The GM then subtracts Theone's DB of 95 for a total attack roll of 2. This is above zero, so the GA2 has hit Theone hard enough to hurt him. The attack size is small, so we subtract 10 from the total result to get a -8 and look up the result on the Slash Table, which results in Theone taking 3 hits of damage.

Phredric rolls his attack, and gets a 69 for an attack roll of 103. After subtracting the Giant Ant's DB of 90, this gives us a total attack roll of 13, a hit! Phredric is using a Long Sword, which does a medium Slach attack, so no adjustments on the critical table. The attack does a nice litle slash delivering 7 hits!.

GA1 now attacks Phredric and rolls a 37 for an attack roll of 107. After subtracting Phredric's DB of 115, this gives us a total of -8! This is below zero, so the attack does no damage. The GM describes it as follows: _The Giant Ant tries to take a bite our of you but snaps up short against your shield._

Theone rolled a 97 to make sure he did not fumble his full parry. This is within the open-ended range of dice rolls, so Theone now gets to roll again and get a 41 for a total of 138. This 138 is then used to make an unmodified (by Theone's OB) attack roll again the Giant Ant (Theone got VERY lucky and the Ant in its hurry for lunch was apparently sloppy enough to run into Theone's weapon as he was trying to fend off its mandibles). We still subtract GA2's DB from this attack, for a total attack roll of 48. Theone is using a Mace, which does a medium crush attack, so the result is unmodified for size. The strike delivers 13 hits, and 1 round of stun. The GM makes the RR against the stun for the Giant Ant, rolling a 27 for a total of 77, not enough to beat the 150 needed against a Stun, thus GA2 is stunned next round, and cannot attack.

This is the end of the first round. The GM now asks for declarations for the second round. Phredric is again going to go with a half parry, and Theone decides that since his foe is stunned, he is going to make a full attack. The GM also declares that GA1 will attack, and that GA2, being stunned, is going to slowly back up (Theone can stay with it without hindering his attack).

THe GM then calls for init rolls. Phedric rolls a 6 for a total of 21, Theone rolls a 1 for a total of 14, GA1 rolls a 4 for a 24, and for GA2, he rolls a 3 for a 23. This makes the order this round as follows:

GA1 (24)
GA2 (23)
Phredric (21)
Theone (14)

*Round 2*

GA1 tries to bite Phredric again and rolls a 27. This is less than what he rolled last time, so we know it will miss.

GA2 not being able to attack, backs up slowly (total of 5' moved) as he recovers.

Phredric rolls a 00 (woohoo! shouts Phredric!). This is open-ended so he gets to roll again and add them together. His second roll is an 86 for an attack roll of 220. After subtracting GA1's DB of 90, this still leaves a total attack roll of 130. Normally, a Long Sword does a Medium attack, and thus  cannot get a result above 100 on the Critical Table. However, Phredric rolled a 00, which is one of the two numbers (99 being the other) that can be rolled and which allows Phredic to totall ignore Damage Caps for this attack. Looking at the Critical table for Slash, we see that it only goes up to 120, so we take that result. The GM shakes his head and tells Phredic that he is going to start calling him Ginsu from now on as he has killed the Giant Ant, and pretty well sliced it into bits that might fit in a trinket box...

Theone mumbles something under his breath as he rolls for his attack. Theone rolls a 96! Another open-ended roll! He makes his second roll, a 64 giving him an attack roll of 201. Subtracting the Giant Ant's DB of 90 still leaves a total attack roll of 111. However, the Mace being a medium weapon, has a Damage Cap of 100. Thus Theone does 27 hits of damage, gives 4 rounds of stun, and a -25 modifier to all of its actions. GA2 rolls a 97, followed by a 03, which added to its RR modifier for Stamina gives a total of 150 against the stuns. However, the Giant Ant needed a 165 to resist the 4 rouns of stun, so it failed.

The GM calls for actions for round 3. Phredric declares that he will move up to help Theone and attack the Giant Ant while keeping with the half parry again. Theone declares another full attack on the ant, and the GM declares that the Giant Ant is hurting and is going to run. THe GM then calls for init rolls.

Phredric rolls an 8 for a total of 23, Theone rolls a 5 for an 18. And the GM rolls a 9 for the Giant Ant, giving it a total of 29.

*Round 3*

GA2 wheels and runs into the underbrush, which is way to thick for Phredric and Theone to follow.

Phredric rolls his attack (he only moved 5 feet, so he can still make a full attack on the retreating Giant Ant). He rolls a 28 for an attack roll of 62. However, he also gets a +35 (for flank and rear bonuses since the Giant Ant is running away) for a total attack roll of 7 (28 roll + 34 OB + 35 positional mods - 90 Ant's DB = 7), nicking it for an additional 5 hits.

Theone rolls 47 giving him an attack roll of 88, which after subtracting the Ants DB is a miss.

The GM then declares that the Ant has gotten away into the brush and that they cannot easily follow it. Phredric and Theone take stock of themselves and decide that their wounds are not deep enough to worry about right now and decide that it might be a better idea if they were to continue on before the injured Ant decides to come back with a bunch of its friends.... So off they go!

The GM then decides to go ahead an award experience to the characters for the encounter. The GM decides that this encounter is Minor Party Goal. The GM also decides that this encounter was a HARD difficulty encounter since the monsters were twice the level of the characters, and awards each character 100 experience points each. This means that these new adventurers only need 250 more experience points each to reach second level.


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## Rasyr (Dec 27, 2004)

So? Any comments on the combat example?


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## Rasyr (Dec 28, 2004)

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> I was actually thinking about suggestions on how integrate parts of RM (e.g. Arms Law) in HARP.




*Integrating Arms Law into HARP *

This is a relatively easy task.

Step 1: Remove the modifier to DB that armor gives the HARP character.

Step 2: Determine the Arm's Law AT (Armor Type) of the character. Just match what the character is actually wearing against the AT descriptions in  Arm's Law accordingly. This may call for a little bit of a judgement call since the armors do not match up exactly.

Step 3: Roll attack on the Arm's Law tables rather then the HARP tables.


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## Rasyr (Dec 30, 2004)

Any more comments or questions?


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## Rasyr (Dec 31, 2004)

Any more comments or questions??? Also, don't forget that the HARP PDF is still on sale until January 3rd.....


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## Staffan (Jan 7, 2005)

I was reading through Martial Law and saw that it has rules for having armor affect the damage you take (used together with the hit location system). So, I was wondering: is this supposed to be in addition to, or instead of, the DB you get from armor?


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## Calico_Jack73 (Jan 7, 2005)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Well, for HARP, ICE wanted a lighter system than Rolemaster, something along the lines of an introductory system, especially since Rolemaster had such a stigma (things like chartmaster, rollmaster, etc..), even among those who had never played the system. At first I had thoughts about creating a Rolemaster Lite, at least until I realized that there was no easy way to do so.




I thought MERP (Middle Earth Roleplaying) was ICE's Rolemaster Lite since it had simplified rules which were compatable with Rolemaster.


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## Rasyr (Jan 7, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> I was reading through Martial Law and saw that it has rules for having armor affect the damage you take (used together with the hit location system). So, I was wondering: is this supposed to be in addition to, or instead of, the DB you get from armor?



That is an optional rule. Some folks have done it "in addition" while others have reduced the DB from armor while using this rule.

It can be used with the larger crit tables in Martial Law or with the smaller ones in HARP itself. The choices are up to the GM.


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## Rasyr (Jan 7, 2005)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> I thought MERP (Middle Earth Roleplaying) was ICE's Rolemaster Lite since it had simplified rules which were compatable with Rolemaster.




Because the company currently doing business as Iron Crown Enterprises is not the same company that produced MERP. MERP is effectively a dead system solely because there will never be another product created and sold for it. Tolkien Enterprises saw to that when the forced the old ICE into bankruptcy and then completely out of business. Rolemaster was then sold off at the bunckruptcy auction, and purchased by a gentleman in England. He, in turn, contacted a fwe of the former ICE employees who created a new company called Mjolnir LLC which is doing business as Iron Crown Enterprises.

Since that time, I wrote HARP and then joined ICE as a full-time employee while it was still in playtesting. 

Just to set something straight, HARP is not a Rolemaster Lite. The term "Lite" implies that the object to which it is applied is a stripped down version of something larger. This is not the case. HARP was developed and written from the ground up. It is in the same family of products as Rolemaster because it shares many of the same basic concepts, but it is its own full complete game because it compeltely rethinks and re-implements some of those concepts in new ways. HARP is not a stripped down anything. It is a lighter game than Rolemaster, and it has much of the same flavor of Rolemaster, but there are differences....


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