# PC Business Opportunity?



## N'raac (Nov 12, 2011)

Members of the RHC don't loot (or at least don't loot for their own benefit, turning items over to the RHC).  A compensation is that they can return items to the RHC for their full value, rather than the usual 50% value when PC's are out in the open market.

So what if a PC has a Craft skill (eg weaponsmith; armorer) or item crafting feat (Gunsmith; Crafty Wondrous Object)?  These characters can invest half the cash value and their own hours of effort to create, say, masterwork weapons or magical items.

Can they then turn them in to the RHC for full value?  It seems like the RHC would be obtaining relevant equipment from third party sources  and paying retail price (that's what they pass it on to their representatives at).  Even if their buying power gets them a discount, they must be paying more than half price since that's the raw material cost the builder would have been paying.

I suppose one could do this in any setting,  but the RHC seems to provide a readily available marketplace.


----------



## Marius Delphus (Nov 12, 2011)

Theoretically the PCs, behind the scenes, need to explain just where the items they confiscate come from and just what their significance is to the case at hand. "Oh yeah, we found this on Dead Suspect."

The PCs are lying through their teeth to their superiors. Call for Bluff checks. And if the PCs don't have their story straight, send the DCs through the roof.

Even so, maybe they get away with it once or twice. But eventually somebody's going to notice that shiny new items keep showing up at the RHC as "evidence" or "confiscated property." Or maybe there is a random audit of the evidence room, and something PCs turned in just happens to be selected. Either way, it won't be long before the RHC sets a couple diviners loose to figure out just what the provenance of these things is.

IOW, if the PCs abuse their position in this way, they should get caught, fined just enough to set their on-hand cash amount to the "right" level, and put on some kind of probation. Which still shouldn't cause a huge problem with the Adventure Path, because you can always set up the next adventure as the most awful case on the docket, given to the PCs as punishment for their transgression.

ETA: You could also short-circuit the whole mess by simply saying the PCs have full-time jobs already, and severely curtail the amount of time they have "free" to make Craft checks, unless they want to go without sleep....


----------



## Morrus (Nov 12, 2011)

I don't think the RHC is in the business of buying magic items.  They have procedures for items gained in the course of business for (what they consider) ethical reasons.

For example - a modern police force will impound cars or store weapons of criminals it arrests.  But a police officer can't say "Hey, NYPD, wanna buy my shotgun?" whenever he needs a bit of cash.  

The only difference really is that the PCs can requisition the confiscated gear.  That's just because D&D is different enough to the real world that the PCs need that sort of gear rather than spending their entire career in a standard uniform and weapon.


----------



## N'raac (Nov 13, 2011)

The Guide indicates "At lower ranks (levels 1–8) you receive a combination of salary and official stipend to fulfill your duties, and the Constabulary’s resources and connections let you easily purchase or requisition the tools you need for your missions. Likewise, you can easily trade in items you no longer need, which can be used by other constables or local police."

Am I misreading that by interpreting it to mean the characters can reade in old equipment for full, rather than half value?  ie Does that second line only apply to items previously requisitioned from the RHC, and not to, say, starting equipment?  Do the PC's need to track which equipment they bought from other sources, rather than from the RHC, so they know what can and cant't be returned to the RHC for full value rather than the usual half value received by selling in the open market?


----------



## N'raac (Nov 13, 2011)

Marius Delphus said:


> Theoretically the PCs, behind the scenes, need to explain just where the items they confiscate come from and just what their significance is to the case at hand. "Oh yeah, we found this on Dead Suspect."




The Guide doesn't say that. If one of the PC's dies, is it expected that his worldly possessions pass to ownership of the RHC, or might the PC have a will leaving those possessions to friends or family? I would expect the RHC is primarily funded by the Risurian treasury, and not by confiscating whatever it lays its hands on.



Marius Delphus said:


> The PCs are lying through their teeth to their superiors. Call for Bluff checks. And if the PCs don't have their story straight, send the DCs through the roof.




Assuming the RHC needs equipment, presumably it is purchased from somewhere. Why would it be restricted to craftsmen or spellcasters other than RHC members? If the RHC needs a supply of Long Swords, and an RHC member is able to produce some of that supply, why would he need to lie for his employer to purchase them.



Marius Delphus said:


> Even so, maybe they get away with it once or twice. But eventually somebody's going to notice that shiny new items keep showing up at the RHC as "evidence" or "confiscated property." Or maybe there is a random audit of the evidence room, and something PCs turned in just happens to be selected. Either way, it won't be long before the RHC sets a couple diviners loose to figure out just what the provenance of these things is.




Again, this assumes the only items the RHC has are those held as evidence. Why? And why would they let the constables requisition that evidence, then take off for parts unknown on assignment, if it is needed as evidence?

This does add another wrinkle - should a character leave the RHC (on good terms - retiring or taking a position elsewhere) is he expected to return the equipment acquired through the RHC? If so, does he get the money back?



Marius Delphus said:


> IOW, if the PCs abuse their position in this way, they should get caught, fined just enough to set their on-hand cash amount to the "right" level, and put on some kind of probation. Which still shouldn't cause a huge problem with the Adventure Path, because you can always set up the next adventure as the most awful case on the docket, given to the PCs as punishment for their transgression.




I don't see why one jumps to this being "abuse of their position". 



Marius Delphus said:


> ETA: You could also short-circuit the whole mess by simply saying the PCs have full-time jobs already, and severely curtail the amount of time they have "free" to make Craft checks, unless they want to go without sleep....




They certainly have limited time. No time? Then why even make Craft skills and Creation feats available? Pathfinder even added the ability to get a couple hours of work done on an adventuring day, presumably to ensure these feats, especially, have some utility. As a player and a GM, I think the players have the right to expect to use the feats and skills they select. If a given skill or feat will have no in game benefit due to the way I run my game, I will tell the PC's that. I won't, to use a Zeitgeist example, wait until the Sorceror picks "Overland Flight" as a spell, then chuckle as I point out its capped duration. I'll tell him that, due to the Zeitgeist setting's special rules, that spell is useless and he should choose something else. Similarly, if there will rarely or even be down time to craft, I will tell players not to waste their feats or skills on those abilities as they will not be useful in this game.

Using these as a "gotcha" strikes me as poor GM'ing, and poor sportsmanship in general.

In any case, why would any PC be assumed to be willing to lie to his RHC superiors and cheat the RHC and, by extension, the government of Risur?  EVERY PC begins play with a strong loyalty to the nation.  They have "passed a background check and magical inquisition to prove his or her loyalty to Risur" - I don't think they can be Bluffing that loyalty.  How would they suddenly become disloyal skimmers and liars immediately after joining up?  [hmmm  font changed when I copied from the Guide...]  Assuming the PC's motivation is cheating the RHC seems, to me, to assume the players are horrible role players.  The RHC has to get its gear from somewhere - to me, that is the reason they would pay full price for used PC equipment.  They're not BUYING it to put in the evidence room, whether it originated with an item seized by the PC's and requisitioned back or somewhere else, are they?


----------



## Falkus (Nov 13, 2011)

Way I'm ruling it in my game is that the RHC will provide the cost of materials for anybody who makes something; but if they turn that item in, they only get the cost of materials back. The RHC doesn't need its constables spending their time at the forge when they should be investigating. They'll help with personal projects to gear up a team; but they'd rather not waste constables working in a supply position.


----------



## RangerWickett (Nov 13, 2011)

*The Short Version:* The RHC only lets PCs trade in items they requisitioned, not items they personally own. The reason is that the requisitioned items are not owned by the PCs; they're owned by the Constabulary.

*The Long Version:* I think it's a flaw to link player combat prowess to their monetary wealth. It means that a GM or module author has to use a lot of weird kludges if he wants to have the party facing 'humanoid foes with reasonable gear' instead of 'monsters with a pile of treasure.'

But the game is designed to use money, so I needed a solution that would get parties at the assumed power level, but still allow us to have a lot of humanoid foes. Like, if the PCs take down a crime lord with tons of money, it would really skew the game's balance if suddenly the party got all that money and went to buy +5 gear.

Personally I prefer a system like Rogue Trader or D20 Modern's, where PCs have a Wealth score, but there's no precise monetary value linked to it. And they make Wealth checks to acquire items, instead of spending money. Keeping the specific values abstract reduces the amount of people selling fifty-seven +1 short swords. (This actually happened in my Red Hand of Doom game.)

The reason I worked in the requisitioning and exchange rules was to try and patch this frustrating aspect of the game. So we sidestepped the issue by saying "PCs don't get to keep their loot." Their stipend gets them to the wealth level they need. And to simplify book-keeping, we just let PCs trade in their gear for its full value and get new gear.

Russ has a good point. Cops don't usually own their patrol cars; they're department property, but the cops get to use them. Likewise, RHC PCs can make use of the appropriate wealth for their level, but that stuff isn't actually theirs. They get to trade it in for other gear, not trade it in for cash.

If your party has PCs who want to make some extra cash on the side, and the group is cool with spending time finagling with the minutiae, do what's fun for you. But no, the RHC won't give the PCs cash for personally-crafted goods.


----------



## RangerWickett (Nov 13, 2011)

To clarify, the actual salary the PCs would get paid is pretty minimal. It would cover living expenses plus enough more to be a fairly cushy job, compared to the typical middle class worker.

But a typical middle class worker is probably pulling in a few GP per week. That's a huge difference from the normal assumption of the sort of money 'adventurers' make. Someone with 1000 gp cash saved up is pretty well off by 'normal person' standards, but adventurers just operate on a different scale.

By the time the party is even 2nd level, they'd have access to much greater resources through the RHC than what they could personally afford themselves. The PCs are paid salaries that 'normal people' can appreciate, but they wield resources that normally only 'adventurers' can get.


----------



## N'raac (Nov 13, 2011)

While I agree cops don't usually own the patrol cars, they also don't generally supply their own handguns, nor do they get to choose the handgun models they use.  The RHC seems a bit of a hybrid of the adventurer mold and the police/military force, which they need to be to meet the requirements of the setting while staying within the framework of the game.

Provided no one ever leaves the RHC (or anyone doing so slips away of their own accord in dishonourable fashion), the question of whether they have to give the gear back never really comes up.  But presumably some of those stipend funds will go to buy, say, scrolls that get consumed to add to the buyer's spell list, a familiar-conjuring  ritual or a new or backup spell book, - it's hard to take those back later.  For that matter, I expect a Gunslinger will turn some of the gold into the upgrade of his own gun provided for under the class - it's not an RHC gun.

I don't know that there would be a huge balance issue with a PC selling goods direct to RHC, although this would substantially enhance a single Craft feat (don't have Craft Rods?  Craft a wondrous object worth the same amount, give it to RHC and requisition the desired Rod).  

From the comments, the ability to halve the price of all equipment if you have time to craft items of equivalent value clearly was not the intent, so fair enough.


----------

