# [Complete Divine] Radiant Servant of Pelor is too powerful.



## ForceUser (May 16, 2004)

I cracked open my new CD Friday night, and lo & behold the RSoP looks like it was cut-&-pasted from Dragon magazine. This class is overpowered. Here's why:

What a cleric loses transitioning to this class
D8 hit die. It becomes a d6.

What a cleric gains transitioning to this class

Martial weapon proficiency.
Greater Turning 3 + Cha modifier per day.
Radiance - light spells double in illumination radius.
Turn undead continues to progress.
He becomes immune to all diseases.
He can first empower, then later maximize, then later do both at once for no extra cost with Healing domain spells.
The Radiant Servant and all allies within 10 feet gain +2 morale bonus on all Will saves.
He gets a third domain.
For the cost of 2 turn attempts, he can deal up to 10d6 positive energy damage to all undead within 100 feet.
 He gains full cleric spellcasting progression on top of everything else.

What crack pipe was Noonan smoking when he cut-&-pasted this class? How is this not overpowered? Why would a cleric of Pelor not take this class? He gives up nothing but an average of 1 hit point per level - a paltry sum. 

The Radiant Servant as listed in Complete Divine is overpowered & broken. I played one in 3.0 up to 14th character level, and he is the bees knees of clerics. He was so overpowered, in fact, that my DM and I put our heads together and made the following changes: 


Removed martial weapon proficiency. It makes no sense thematically.
Restricted Extra Greater Turning to a _single_ extra greater turning per day.
Lowered the spellcasting progression to 9/10 instead of 10/10. And I'd advocate lowering it even further - perhaps even as low as 7/10.
Removed the bonus domain. This was just over the top.

From the Monte Cook school of prestige class construction: a good prestige class is not more powerful than a core class, simply different & unique. He may be more focused in a single area of expertise, but if so he should pay for that focus by being weaker in other areas. The Radiant Servant does not follow this format. You can't say that forcing the class to take the Sun & Healing domains constitutes a sacrifice because these are two of the most powerful domains in the game. And the reduction in hit die to d6 is not weakening at all - he's a cleric. He heals really well - even better as a Radiant Servant.

What were these guys thinking?


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## shilsen (May 16, 2004)

I agree. When using it in my campaign, we dropped the good Fort save and removed the martial weapon proficiency. We never got to play the PC to higher levels so I don't have much gameplay experience of the PrC, but I do think it gets far too much for very little loss. As you say, it is a no-brainer for a cleric of Pelor, and I don't think PrCs (or spells, feats, or any other aspect of the game) should ever be no-brainer choices.


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## Piratecat (May 17, 2004)

I agree as well. This class is silly-powerful.


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## Crothian (May 17, 2004)

how often can they empower and maximize spells?  skill points and class skills the same as a cleric? The bonus to will saves always in effect?

Light spells double?  that just mean you get to see farther with a light spell?

While this is a lot, it is also specializing aginst the undead.  I imagine a campaign with little undead this is not that great.


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## Endur (May 17, 2004)

I played a character with this prestige class.  On the one hand, I agree that the abilities don't come into play all that often.  On the other hand, this is a relatively easy prestige class to get into and you don't give up much other than hit points.

While hit points are very important (making the difference between life and death), since the class can heal, hit points are less important than you might think.

I would not have imported this PRC into Complete Divine, but the others in Dragon were far worse (The servants of Kord, etc.).


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## hong (May 17, 2004)

My solution would be to drop the Martial WP and good Fort save. But then my campaign is not exactly core....


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## drunkmoogle (May 17, 2004)

I do not have my Complete Divine yet, but I have already have one word on my mind.

Banninated.

Much too powerful. To one of the top-tier classes of the game. Nuke it.


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## fba827 (May 17, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> how often can they empower and maximize spells?  skill points and class skills the same as a cleric? The bonus to will saves always in effect?
> 
> Light spells double?  that just mean you get to see farther with a light spell?
> 
> While this is a lot, it is also specializing aginst the undead.  I imagine a campaign with little undead this is not that great.



 empower/maximize only applies to the healing domain spell - so, it can only be used at most as many domain spell slots a person has -- even then, presuming that they are all healing spells prepared.

double illumination range is one of those things I can't imagine making a difference in an encounter level, merely a convience for both players and dm so that everyone in the area is able to see as much as everyone else (at least in my experiences).

as crothian said, it's strongly focused for dealing with undead and healing.  if the campaign's focus -- or even the current adventure -- has little in terms of undead, then some of this never really comes into play.

so, while it is a lot in terms of abilities - the frequency of use has been little. just my two cents based on personal experiences.  Obviously, if your campaign is full of undead or a lot of darkness effects, then, yes, there is a very obvious issue here.

oh, and final thought on this ... (not that rp limitations should necessarily be a balance factor for a PrC) the fact that this is a church-based PrC has to say something about time, responsibility, and commitment to the church and church duties...  i would image someone known as a RSoP is going to be called upon by the commoners quite frequently for aid in healing or protection (isn't that part of his thing? strength for the commoners?)

(blah blah blah....  -- again, just my two cents on the topic for whatever they are worth.)


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## CRGreathouse (May 17, 2004)

What are the requirements for the Radiant Servant of Pelor?

It's obviously overpowered, but without knowing the requirements I can't really say how over-the-top it is.

For the cost of 10 hp, it gets undead abilities (greater turning, positive energy damage), 'flashy' abilities with not too much real power (radiance, morale bonus to Will saves, disease immunity), and powerful abilites (extra domain, better healing).  Oh yeah, and MWP.


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## Elder-Basilisk (May 17, 2004)

You're over-reacting. The Radiant Servant of Pelor is nifty but it's not so good as to justify this level of panicked flailing with the nerf bat. I'm much more concerned over the fact that _Spikes_ remains unchanged in CD (it was better than GMW in 3.0 and GMW is a 4th level cleric spell that got nerfed in 3.5) and that _Miasma_ is back (even at 6th level, having no save death at high caster levels is not a good idea).

You're missing a few things in your analysis too:
1. Prerequisites: 5 ranks of Heal, 8 ranks of Knowledge: religion, the Sun domain, and Extra Turning.

The ranks aren't that big a deal--although they will force most clerics to either skimp on concentration or skimp on spellcraft and Diplomacy. Non-human clerics will be harder pressed to meet them.

The Sun Domain isn't a balancing factor either. The Sun Domain has consistently good spells at nearly all levels and has a useful granted power too. It's one of the better domains in the PH--and, more significantly, one of Pelor's better domains.

However, full use of its abilities requires the Healing Domain--which is generally thought to be a weak domain for good clerics. (One of the most powerful domains in the PHB?!? Are you nuts? It doesn't let a cleric do anything he couldn't do before and its domain power doesn't make much of a difference either--1 point isn't much). It's also significant to note that a cleric of Pelor qualifying for this class and making use of its abilities will have the Sun and Healing domains. Any other combo and he either doesn't qualify or can't make full use of the powers. That's not a lot of flexibility.

Extra Turning, OTOH, is not usually considered a power feat for a cleric. It doesn't hurt, of course, especially if you have some of the divine feats from CW or CD. However, clerics--especially non-human clerics--don't have a lot of feats and it can hurt.

As for the gains,
Martial Weapon Proficiency: It doesn't belong in the class but it's not a big deal. Either the cleric will lose out on some of the other class abilities or he probably won't be too efficient with weapon combat. (Melee clerics of Pelor will often want the Strength Domain but that makes a lot of the healing domain powers useless to them--they also won't be happy with d6 hit points). Archer clerics of Pelor are few and far between and spending a feat on Extra Turning will hurt them. (As will going for at least five levels using a crossbow in order to not duplicate this ability).

Greater Turning 3/day+cha mod: This is definitely a good power. However, it's not incredibly likely to be significant unless you're leading your PCs against the White Kingdom. In Living Greyhawk, my cleric of Pelor has only had use for extra greater turnings a couple times in 60+ mods. (Not that he has them; most other times, however, there was either A. only one undead encounter that day, B. Undead weak enough he dusts them anyway, or C. Undead too strong to make turning practical).

Radiance: The ability has a lot of flavor but it's not too significant in terms of balance. I've only played in one two sessions where a Daylight going 120 feet instead of 60 feet and counting as 4th level rather than 3rd level would have been helpful.

Immunity to Disease: Again, this is mostly flavor text. Especially for a cleric who can cast Remove Disease, Disease is rarely a significant challenge in D&D. In a plague-themed mod it'll be useful. Otherwise it'll be useful approximately as often as the cleric goes into melee with a mummy.

Empowered and Maximized Healing Domain spells: Only works if you actually have the Healing Domain which is weak relative to other domains. This might be nifty for some kind of fighting healer Cleric 4/Fighter 4/Divine Crusader (healing domain) 2/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10 (adding spells to Divine Crusader levels). Otherwise, however, it doesn't seem like that big a deal. (Heck, I think they could have made that the granted power of the Healing Domain without breaking anything).

The Third Domain: Glory or Purification. Nifty. This gives the obvious Radiant Servant builds a little domain flexibility. Note, however, that this has negative synergy with the bonusses to Healing Domain casting. The more you get out of your healing domain bonusses, the less you get out of having an extra domain.

Positive Energy Burst: A very solid ability (and better here than in the Hunter of the Dead class which, since it doesn't progress in Undead Turning, has little other use for turning).

Full Spellcasting: That's what makes the class worth taking. Consider some of the other classes in the book that don't have full spellcasting--Shining Blade of Heironeous, for instance. As a cleric, I wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole (and I'm not sure I'd take it as a Paladin either--despite its obviously being aimed at paladins. The Holy Sword spell is better than the sword abilities of the Shining Blade and the paladin gets Lay on Hands, smite, turning, and mount progression too).

On the whole, Radiant Servant may get a few too many abilities (martial weapons, for instance), but I don't consider it a no-brainer to aim my 9th level Living Greyhawk cleric of Pelor towards the class. (Even though he could easily meet the skill prereqs). It would be a lot more attractive a choice if he had the healing domain but I'm not sure I'd trade the strength domain for the Healing Domain, even with the knowledge of the healing domain abilities of the Radiant Servant. Reduce the Spellcasting to 9/10 and (depending upon where the hit happens) I wouldn't be thinking about it for my cleric anymore. Reduce it to 7/10 and I wouldn't as much as consider it for ANY cleric. If you feel the need to nerf it (and there are many other things in the CD that could use changes far more dramatically), I would start by eliminating the martial weapon proficiency (doesn't fit in the class), and positive energy burst (the class has plenty to do with their turning already and we don't need to step on the already weak Hunter of the Dead any more than necessary). I'd probably change the Greater Turning to +1/2 class levels as well and leave it at that. (Well, I might prohibit them from casting Inflict x Wounds spells or Harm as well). Then it would be what a prestige class is supposed to be: more focussed than the normal cleric of Pelor (in this case, focussed on healing people and fighting undead) but less flexible and less powerful outside of that specialty. (Truth to be told, it's not really far from that at the moment).



			
				ForceUser said:
			
		

> I cracked open my new CD Friday night, and lo & behold the RSoP looks like it was cut-&-pasted from Dragon magazine. This class is overpowered. Here's why:
> 
> What a cleric loses transitioning to this class
> D8 hit die. It becomes a d6.
> ...


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## Celtavian (May 17, 2004)

*re*

The only concern I have with the Radiant Servant of Pelor is the Extra Greater Turning. Greater Turning can make an encounter with vampire bodyguard fighters a cakewalk. You can utterly annihilate undead. I'm just glad they didn't use the same text they did for the Eye of Horus Re where the Extra Greater Turning attempts are in addition to the regular turning attempts. You want to see an overpowered class that someone at WotC didn't have the good sense to edit before it went to the printers, then read the Eye of Horus Re. 

Radiant Servant of Pelor is decent, but hardly overpowered. The only problem with the class is the Extra Greater Turning. The Empowered and Maximized healing only works with the single domain spell from the Healing domain they can cast per day.


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## ForceUser (May 17, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> However, full use of its abilities requires the Healing Domain--which is generally thought to be a weak domain for good clerics. (One of the most powerful domains in the PHB?!? Are you nuts? It doesn't let a cleric do anything he couldn't do before and its domain power doesn't make much of a difference either--1 point isn't much). It's also significant to note that a cleric of Pelor qualifying for this class and making use of its abilities will have the Sun and Healing domains. Any other combo and he either doesn't qualify or can't make full use of the powers. That's not a lot of flexibility.



This is the only point you made I'm going to bother refuting - for the rest, we're too far afield in our opinions. Suffice it to say that my group has long in-game experience with the Radiant Servant and I stand by my analysis. It's overpowered.

As for the Healing domain, I stand by my assertion there as well, and I will defend it. Sometimes its the most innocuous abilities that are the most powerful over the course of a campaign. The granted power of the Healing doamin, +1 caster level on cure spells, may not seem like much, but it adds up in a major way over the long run, the same as that incredibly useful feat, Weapon Focus. Unlike most feats, Weapon Focus applies every single time you attack with your chosen weapon. The Healing domain power applies each time you cast a cure spell. Every - single - time. If you cast a cure spell five times you've healed 5 extra hit points. If you cast a cure spell 1,000 times over the course of a campaign, you've healed 1,000 extra hit points you wouldn't have healed without this domain. That is powerful. That is why Healing is one of the most powerful domains. I hesitate to speculate, but perhaps you are looking at powers on a per-usage basis, i.e. what does it do for me right now? I am viewing this domain from a campaigner's perspective. Every time your cleric heals, he is that much more effective. It's subtle, but it adds up. Healing is one of the most powerful domains.


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## Hypersmurf (May 17, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> The Healing domain power applies each time you cast a cure spell. Every - single - time. If you cast a cure spell five times you've healed 5 extra hit points. If you cast a cure spell 1,000 times over the course of a campaign, you've healed 1,000 extra hit points you wouldn't have healed without this domain.




Not really.

As soon as you hit 5th, Healing domain makes zero difference to your CLWs.  At 10th, zero difference to your CMoWs.  etc, etc.



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> I'm much more concerned over the fact that Miasma is back...




Oh, for god's sake...!

Guess we can look forward to a reprinted _Fanfare_ to come, then 

-Hyp.


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## Count Arioch the 28t (May 17, 2004)

I find that treating Miasma like the psionic power, Crisis of breath is the best way to handle it, except I still allow the "No save" portion".

Have they at least clarified it?  The wording on that spell was really bad.

I will have to test the Radiant Servant of Pelor before making a descision.  However, a powerful PrC in this book would be cause for celebration, as most are crap.


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## Li Shenron (May 17, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> Empowered and Maximized Healing Domain spells: Only works if you actually have the Healing Domain...




I wouldn't be so sure that it works this way, but as long as I don't have the original text, it's hard to say.

It is possible that the power applies to the 9 spells belonging to the Healing domain, but not only when prepared as domain spells. Let's see the exact text...


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## fba827 (May 17, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> I wouldn't be so sure that it works this way, but as long as I don't have the original text, it's hard to say.
> 
> It is possible that the power applies to the 9 spells belonging to the Healing domain, but not only when prepared as domain spells. Let's see the exact text...



 Note: I don't have CW, only going by what's in Dragon Magazine...  and even then, I don't have the magazine in front of me...

But I am pretty sure the way I (and everyone else in the campaign read the description) it says something like 'everytime you cast a domain spell from the Healing domain... '  thus, only applying to any healing domain spell that has been prepared in the domain spell slot.

but, yeah, exact text would help clarify.


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## ForceUser (May 17, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Not really.
> 
> As soon as you hit 5th, Healing domain makes zero difference to your CLWs.  At 10th, zero difference to your CMoWs.  etc, etc.



I beg to differ. _Mass cure critical wounds_, for example, maxes out at +40. There will always be cure spells you gain the benefit from this (until ridiculously high epic levels), and the mass spells actually make the domain power even more powerful, because if you heal five people with a mass spell, that's +1 hp each. I continue to stand by my assertion.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 17, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> You're missing a few things in your analysis too:
> 1. Prerequisites: 5 ranks of Heal, 8 ranks of Knowledge: religion, the Sun domain, and Extra Turning.




This class makes Extra Turning useful, and everything else the cleric of Pelor would have taken anyway. I can't imagine how a player is going to justify not having the ranks in religion.

As for the gains,



> Radiance: The ability has a lot of flavor but it's not too significant in terms of balance. I've only played in one two sessions where a Daylight going 120 feet instead of 60 feet and counting as 4th level rather than 3rd level would have been helpful.




Sunburst is a Sun domain spell which blinds all creatures within 80 feet of the casting point. (Not 10 ft. as the short description says.) It blinds those creatures _forever_ unless they just so happen to have a _potion of remove blindness_ and the time to use it... or even locate it in their pack (they're blind, aftera ll). Now this ability lets you massively increase the area of a battlefield it can affect without taking up a higher-level spell slot.



> Full Spellcasting: That's what makes the class worth taking. Consider some of the other classes in the book that don't have full spellcasting--Shining Blade of Heironeous, for instance. As a cleric, I wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole (and I'm not sure I'd take it as a Paladin either--despite its obviously being aimed at paladins. The Holy Sword spell is better than the sword abilities of the Shining Blade and the paladin gets Lay on Hands, smite, turning, and mount progression too).




WotC should have learned, a long time ago, not to give spellcasting PrCs full spellcasting.


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## Elder-Basilisk (May 17, 2004)

WRT the healing domain: I think your analysis is using the wrong rubric Forceuser. It doesn't matter if the healing domain results in an extra million points of curing over the course of the campaign. What matters is the difference it makes to the PCs. This could, in my estimation, happen several ways:

1. The after battle cure advantage: The cleric has to spend fewer spells to heal the PCs to full. If the cleric can heal the barbarian and the paladin instead of just the barbarian because of ability X, then the ability helps. If, even with the ability, he is only able to cure the barbarian, the party most likely will not press on and the ability didn't net a significant advantage.

2. The hole up and rest advantage: As much as I despise it, there are times--especially at low levels, when the party is all in single digit hit points and needs to find a defensible location, bar the door, and rest for a day or three to heal up. If the healing domain cuts the 2 days of rest required down to 1, then it makes a difference in time sensitive situations (not that it matters much in that case--one day instead of two is not usually relevant). If the healing domain cuts the 1 full day (rest, cast heals, rest, cast heals again) down to one night (rest, cast heals, keep going), then it's made a real difference. (One night of rest is often possible--more than that and the enemy probably got away and its too late to catch up).

3. The combat-heal advantage: The fighter has taken 43 hit points of damage this round. The cleric moves up and casts a cure spell. Because of the cure, the fighter can keep fighting. If the healing domain made the difference between the fighter being able to keep fighting, and the fighter retreating or the fighter being confident enough to fight to win and the fighter fighting defensively, the healing domain was helpful. If it didn't make a difference to the fighter's actions and didn't keep the fighter from dying (brought to -9 instead of -10 because of that extra healing domain hit point), then it wasn't helpful.

Really, the only of these situations where the healing domain is often helpful is situation 2 where the ability to use the domain slot for healing makes a big difference. Even then, it only makes a big difference around levels 1-4. After that, you've got enough spells anyway and using the domain spots isn't likely to let you keep spells that would be helpful when you press on.

Only at first level is 1 point of healing per spell going to make much of a difference in the after battle cure situation. Even then, any situation where the fighter is down 5 points and the non-healing domain cures 4 points, usually just means that a cure minor wounds is cast.

And, again, it's only at first and second level that one extra point of healing is likely to make the difference between the fighter staying and fleeing. At no levels are characters being healed in combat and then dropped to exactly -10 (not -11 because then the healing domain wouldn't help) a common enough occurence to make the healing domain advantageous.

So, in most situations, the healing domain doesn't make much of a difference.



			
				(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> This class makes Extra Turning useful, and everything else the cleric of Pelor would have taken anyway. I can't imagine how a player is going to justify not having the ranks in religion.




"My job is to cleanse the land of evil not figure out how whether more archons or eladrin can dance on the head of a pin. That's the contemplative theologians' jobs."

"If I want to help cure your wounds or disease, I'll ask Pelor to do it. What's the point of divine healing if I'm going to stitch and leech like some sawbones?"

At least that's how a number of clerics I've seen would justify it.



> Sunburst is a Sun domain spell which blinds all creatures within 80 feet of the casting point. (Not 10 ft. as the short description says.) It blinds those creatures _forever_ unless they just so happen to have a _potion of remove blindness_ and the time to use it... or even locate it in their pack (they're blind, aftera ll). Now this ability lets you massively increase the area of a battlefield it can affect without taking up a higher-level spell slot.




Hmm. Sunburst and Sunray would be powerful applications. However, the text of the ability says "the radius of illumination is doubled" not that the area of effect is doubled. As a DM, I don't think I'd interpret that to apply to the offensive light spells. I suppose it would work for that undead damaging light from BoED but that's about it.



> WotC should have learned, a long time ago, not to give spellcasting PrCs full spellcasting.




I disagree. Limited spellcasting takes classes from OK to worthless in record time. I'd love to see some villainous acolytes of the skin for instance but the abilities they gain just aren't worth 5 levels of spellcasting (not even being able to limited wish when otherwise, you'd be wishing). Once a spellcaster loses more than two levels of spellcasting ability (and two lost levels is really marginal--one is all that spellcasters can really afford to lose), they either have to find a role in the party other than primary spellcaster (the spellsword, for instance, fills a fighter's role, and the Arcane Trickster a rogue's), or be dramatically underpowered. The Practiced Spellcaster feat in CD may help to make up for this but I don't think it will help that much.


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## Epametheus (May 17, 2004)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> WotC should have learned, a long time ago, not to give spellcasting PrCs full spellcasting.




The rub in that is that if taking a PrC means giving up 9th level spells, then the PrC probably isn't worth bothering with.

Actually, I can't think of _any_ partial progression PrCs that I'd take with a straight-spellcaster PC; giving up 5 levels of spell progression for some limited-use gimmick is a pretty steep price.

Which is why most of the PrCs have full caster progression; they're trying to write PrCs that people would actually want to take.


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## Spatula (May 17, 2004)

I think (Psi)SeveredHead's point is that no PrC should have more than 9 out of 10 levels of spellcasting, not that every spellcasting PrC should only give 5 out of 10 levels of spellcasting.


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## borc killer (May 17, 2004)

I have a high level RSoP in one of my games right now and for the past 15 levels or so they have been fighting nothing but undead… and I have not noticed the class being over powered in the slightest even against the mobs of undead they fight.  And I want to say that I as a DM really watch for over powered PCs and nurf them when I have good cause…

Second off none of us in that game have even noticed that it had marital weapon proficiency… LOL but I will be nurffing that now because there is absolute no reason for that class to have it.  Now maybe that says something about my observation skills… but the player did not know it ether hehe.

Now I do have to agree that a cleric of Palor would be nuts to not take this class assuming they meet the requirements… but I don’t think they class is ‘over powered’ per say…  just a really good option for someone following Palor.

Borc Killer


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## Numion (May 17, 2004)

Healing domain overpowered? Not in my experience. Since our first 3e campaign clerics have rarely even spent that many slots on healing .. mostly relying on after-combat cure light wounds wands. Cleric can never match the damage dealing capacity of the enemies with healing, so its better to cast offensive spells and heal after combat.

Heal and Mass heal make a difference, but healing domain doesn't affect those.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 18, 2004)

Epametheus said:
			
		

> The rub in that is that if taking a PrC means giving up 9th level spells, then the PrC probably isn't worth bothering with.




Giving up 1 or 2 caster levels won't make you give up 9th-level spells.



> Which is why most of the PrCs have full caster progression; they're trying to write PrCs that people would actually want to take.




And I will translate this as "they're trying to write PrCs without a real cost".


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## LightPhoenix (May 18, 2004)

I have to agree with (Psi)... the tradeoff that a straight spellcaster pays for their nifty powers is that they lose spellcasting power.  If you want to be the most powerful generalized spellcaster, you stay as the core class.  This is especially true, IMO, for Wizards and Sorcerers, who have little to lose.  

Clerics have much more to lose, but the problem with the Radiant Servant doesn't make them lose much at all - they have more powerful turning, equal spellcasting, better proficiencies, better healing, slightly better saves, equal skills, plus the extra abilities... the only things they lose is a bit of flexibility (since they need to take Sun and Healing to make full use of the class), one point of BAB, and 1 hit point per level.  That's barely a sacrifice at all.

For the record, the class in Dragon (#283, p. 42) doesn't require the Sun Domain (which has presumably changed in CD to make it more generic), and specifies that the Empower/Maximize healing only pertains to domain spells.


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## Saeviomagy (May 18, 2004)

borc killer said:
			
		

> Second off none of us in that game have even noticed that it had marital weapon proficiency…




I thought the class was in complete divine, not the Book of Erotic Fantasy...


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## shilsen (May 18, 2004)

borc killer said:
			
		

> Second off none of us in that game have even noticed that it had marital weapon proficiency




Well, if the RSoP PC wasn't married, there's no reason it should have come into play


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## Epametheus (May 18, 2004)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> Giving up 1 or 2 caster levels won't make you give up 9th-level spells.




1 or 2 levels is a token price; only a slight improvement over a PrC granting cool stuff _and_ full spells.



> And I will translate this as "they're trying to write PrCs without a real cost".




Well, yeah.  "Appealing" and "balanced" have incredibly little to do with each other, and might even be at odds.  They opted for appealing; a PrC that no one would ever want to take is a waste of space.

Wizards lose a couple bonus feats and familiar progression, while sorcerers just lose familiar progression.  Familiars are so negligible as an ability that giving that up amounts to giving up nothing.

Clerics give up better Turning, which may or may not be completely useless in a campaign, and might take a hit in some of the domain powers not scaling, like Smite from Destruction and Death Touch from the Death domain.  Many of the domain powers don't scale at all, so this usually isn't a great loss.

Druids are the only good spellcaster class that actually has to give up something good if they want to take a PrC in the first place.

Everyone but the druids come out completely ahead if they still get 9th level spells _and_ get cool powers on top of that.  If they don't come out of it with 9th level spells, than they'll almost certianly be inferior to someone that _does_ have 9th level spells, and thus taking the PrC actually hurt the character.

Druids already get cool powers and 9th level spells from their base class, so they've got the most to lose from going after a PrC. Do we have anyone here that's played a druid and actually went for a PrC?


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## Al'Kelhar (May 18, 2004)

Al'Kelhar's rule of thumb (as a DM):

A prestige class must never be more powerful overall than a core class.

It is sometimes difficult to discern this balance with some of the more novel PrCs, but it's a relatively easy comparison for those PrCs designed for core spellcasters which have a +1 caster level progression.  What does a core spellcaster stand to lose if it takes a +1 caster level per level advancement PrC:

- sorcerers lose familiar advancement;
- wizards lose familiar advancement and one bonus feat per 5 levels;
- clerics lose undead turning advancement;
- druids lose wild shape advancement, companion animal advancement, natural poison immunity, saving throw bonuses against feys etc.

Thus, a prestige class which grants +1 caster level per level advancement can give no more than that which is lost.  On this score, the Radiant Servant of Pelor is "way broken" (i.e. grossly overpowered).  A cleric loses an average of 10 hit points over 10 levels, but his turning capability is dramatically enhanced, as is his healing.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar


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## Elder-Basilisk (May 18, 2004)

My rule of thumb is this: a specialist should be better than a generalist in his specialty. I don't have a particular problem with the RSoP being better than a normal cleric at healing. In fact, I think it's a welcome change from all of the i33t cleric roxxor melee or offensive spellcasting methods (like the 3e madness domain, the 3e Hospitaller, etc). If the cleric is focussing his power-gaming energies on being a better healer (ie making the rest of the party look better), 

I'll grant that, if you want to play a healing and undead turning cleric, RSOP is the best way to go about it. (Well, actually, if healing is ALL you're after, Clr 1/Ftr 7/Divine Crusader 1 (healing)/RSoP 10 (adding to Divine Crusader levels) is probably the best way to go but that's REALLY inflexible). However, it comes at a significant cost in flexibility--both in domain choices and in gods.

I'm not altogether happy with the class but I don't think that removing lots of abilities is the answer. I'd be happy to spread the extra greater turnings out and remove Positive Energy Burst and Martial Weapons on the benefits side and to add a bit on the prerequisites side (Skill Focus: Heal--and possibly Improved Turning would be appropriate). At that point, if you wanted to be a spellblaster cleric (focussing on curses, holds, commands, flame strikes, destructions, etc), or a melee cleric, you probably don't want to be a RSoP. (Archer clerics will already want to avoid RsoP).


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## Olive (May 18, 2004)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> And I will translate this as "they're trying to write PrCs without a real cost".




Not being a cleric player, I'm not sure about this for clerics but I do know that for wizards you can have a real cost and still give +10 levels of epll casting. Loosing the feats hurts bad.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 18, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> Not being a cleric player, I'm not sure about this for clerics but I do know that for wizards you can have a real cost and still give +10 levels of epll casting. Loosing the feats hurts bad.




Many (most?) wizard PrCs I've seen give back something worth way more than 2 or 3 feats. Most cleric PrCs do the same thing, and unlike wizard PrCs I've only seen two underpowered cleric PrCs.

One is that chaos cleric PrC in Complete Divine that gives out a _totally useless_ ability to control a _sphere of annihilation_ and also gives you immunity to that... how often does the _sphere_ actually show up in a campaign? Certainly not until the really high levels. And for that you also give uop _five_ caster levels. It seems there will never be a happy medium.


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## ForceUser (May 18, 2004)

n/a


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## Count Arioch the 28t (May 20, 2004)

I beleive that you should lose caster levels if the PrC gives you mroe than what you had before.

However, 1 or 2 levels is far from a token cost, it's pretty high when it comes to penetrating SR.  Those 1 or 2 levels could make the difference from useful to useless real quick.

If you lose 9th level spells, then you should gain an equal, but different ability.


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## FireLance (May 20, 2004)

Count Arioch the 28t said:
			
		

> However, 1 or 2 levels is far from a token cost, it's pretty high when it comes to penetrating SR.  Those 1 or 2 levels could make the difference from useful to useless real quick.



Practised Spellcaster from Complete Divine allows you to overcome up to 4 levels worth of SR penetration and level-dependent spell variables at the cost of a feat and 4 ranks of Spellcraft.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 20, 2004)

Count Arioch the 28t said:
			
		

> I beleive that you should lose caster levels if the PrC gives you mroe than what you had before.
> 
> However, 1 or 2 levels is far from a token cost, it's pretty high when it comes to penetrating SR.  Those 1 or 2 levels could make the difference from useful to useless real quick.
> 
> If you lose 9th level spells, then you should gain an equal, but different ability.



If you only give up one or two levels, you won't lose 9th-level spells.

I know giving up a caster level is harsh; you could lose 3 high-level spells that way. As a result, you should expect to gain some powerful benefits for it.

Just nothing like breaking the metacap  or save DC boosts.

However, I've yet to see a cost for a PrC that will match losing a caster level or two.


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## Dr_Rictus (May 21, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> I cracked open my new CD Friday night, and lo & behold the RSoP looks like it was cut-&-pasted from Dragon magazine.




Just for the record, according to the description in this thread, the class actually did change in several ways:

1) No requirement of 3 ranks in Knowledge (undead), that skill having been folded into Knowledge (religion).  That's a savings of 6 skill points, typically, by the core rules.

2) Knowledge (religion) rank requirement reduced from 9 to 8, saving a skill point and making the class accessible 1 level earlier.

3) Sun domain made a requirement, instead of merely having the Extra Greater Turning ability unusable without it.

4) Extra domain becoming a prestige domain, rather than simply another from among the domains normally available to clerics of Pelor.

Those were the changes I spotted just offhand.


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## Dr_Rictus (May 21, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> If you cast a cure spell 1,000 times over the course of a campaign, you've healed 1,000 extra hit points you wouldn't have healed without this domain. That is powerful.




Say it's 1,000 hit points.  That is the average number of hit points contained in 182 charges worth of _cure light wounds_ wands.  Total savings: 2,727 gp, or enough for a spare +1 weapon with some change left over.

In combat, even with _mass cure_ spells, you're only healing a particular target once per round at most, so with D&D tuned to combats lasting 3 or 4 rounds, that's 3 or 4 hit points worth of difference in whether a given person lives through that fight.  How useful that is, I'll leave to opinion.

I know these points were made above, but I find the math tends to illustrate them better.


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## The Souljourner (May 21, 2004)

Dr_Rictus said:
			
		

> 4) Extra domain becoming a prestige domain, rather than simply another from among the domains normally available to clerics of Pelor.




There's no such thing as prestige domains any more.  The domains in Complete Divine are available as normal domains to the appropriate clerics.  At least, unless I missed something.  They're definitely not called prestige domains.

-The Souljourner


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## Kwyn (May 21, 2004)

> Knowledge (religion) rank requirement reduced from 9 to 8




It's 9

Glory and Purification are offered at 5th level.  Purification is not a Pelor domain.  So, I suppose, for the RSoP, it becomes a prestige domain.

If you have this class in another campaign setting, following the adjustment suggestions, both Glory and Purification are likely to become domain options at level 5 that you wouldn't have otherwise, since at this point, only the Greyhawk gods are listed for the new domains.


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## The Souljourner (May 21, 2004)

Right, sorry, didn't have my book with me, but I knew at least Glory was just a flat out Pelor domain (and a right cool one too, if you're going to go with the "I rock against undead" theme).

And for the record, while I think any cleric of Pelor would be a fool not to take this class, it just makes them slightly better.  However, I think just choosing to be a cleric of Pelor is already a restriction, now add on the fact that you have to take extra turning, have to take Sun domain, and one of the abilities requires healing domain, and  I think it's pretty fair.  Yeah, it's good, but only if you want to do a lot of undead turning.

I agree the martial weapon proficiency is a bit much, but it's probably a copy and paste error that'll get errataed away.

Healing is a crappy, crappy, crappy, (did I mention crappy?) domain that I have never ever seen anyone take and I totally don't blame them.  Yeah, let's waste half your domain spells on spells you could otherwise spontaneously cast.  And as others have said, the low level spells cap out and the ability becomes useless, and at high levels, one extra hitpoint is far, far below the standard deviation for a single hit of every monster.  The domain ability of Healing really should be at least as good as Augmented Healing (which, btw, totally kicks +1 caster level).

I was planning out a RSoP and this was my plan: Human, taking Empower Turning, and Divine Spell Power at 1st, Augmented Healing, at 3rd, Extra Turning at 6th, with Glory and Sun as my domains.  Screw the Healing domain until I get it for free, I say...  Glory and Sun have much better slot choices and much granted powers.

I think it's a cool class if you want to totally rock against undead.  Otherwise, it's just a nice deviation from genero cleric.

-The Souljourner


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## Endur (May 22, 2004)

I played a Radiant Servant of Pelor with the Glory, Sun, and Healing domains.

It was the most powerful cleric I have ever seen.

Legions of undead turned to smoke.  The other PCs never had to lift a finger against undead (except for the one super-high level Boss Undead).

When the Undead weren't around, the Cleric could heal with the best of them.

And every so often, this cleric would cast spells similar to other clerics (Bulls Strength, Flame Strike, Harm, etc.).

Giving access to Glory and full caster levels and full undead turning (enhanced), the Radiant Servant of Pelor is the most powerful cleric PRC of them all.


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## ForceUser (May 22, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I played a Radiant Servant of Pelor with the Glory, Sun, and Healing domains.
> 
> It was the most powerful cleric I have ever seen.
> 
> ...



That's what I've been trying to tell these jokers. I played a Radiant Servant to 13th level. He's stupid over-powered. Both of my DMs agree. We know from months of experience playing with the class. No one ability makes you go "wow, that's amazing," but the sum total of everything they get is simply too much and adds up to an extremely potent cleric.


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## The Souljourner (May 22, 2004)

Legions of undead turn to smoke.  Yeah, except that a cleric of Pelor that didn't take this class could do the same thing, just by taking Disciple of the Sun and the Sun and the Glory domains.  The prestige class has an ability that just duplicates the disciple of the sun feat.  Big whoop.  With extra turning and a decent charisma modifier, you'll never run out of double turns either (unless you are fighting way more undead than I've ever seen in a campaign).  The healing abilities are quite over stated.  Sure, *if* you use a domain slot to prepare a single healing spell, you can get that spell empowered.  At any level where you could maximize one of those spells, you could instead just cast Heal, which is just better and gets no benefit from the ability.

Assuming that the martial weapon proficiency is an error, that leaves.... umm... bonus domain.... which just gets you to sun, glory, healing, which is just barely better than plain old sun and glory.

Radiance is pure fluff, immunity to disease is practically worthless...

In my mind, one ability that makes you go "wow, that's amazing" is worth an almost unlimited number of "oh, yeah, that's kinda cool" powers.

Against a cleric properly built, the RSoP offers very few advantages that will truly make a difference in day to day play.  Are you comparing this class to other clerics, or to other characters of the same level?  Theres's a big difference.

-The Souljourner


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## Psiblade (May 22, 2004)

I like PrCs to fit a particular concept. The RSoP fails to adhere to the concept of the wise, noble healer in a few areas. The RSoP as designed should be a healing / turning / spell casting machine not a fighting cleric. The character build therefore should de-emphasize combat. 

The d6 instead of d8 does adhere to the concept of the healer. However, the book gives them martial weapons proficiency   which not fit in with their lessened combat role. Also, a good fort save also does not fit their de-emphasize focus on combat. 

By changing the fort save to poor and removing martial weapon proficiency, I think the Radiant Servant of Pelor fits the noble healer concept better and is better balanced with other characters. As is, the RSoP is definitely overpowered in both role and powers.

-Psiblade


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## Marshall (May 22, 2004)

Psiblade said:
			
		

> The d6 instead of d8 does adhere to the concept of the healer. However, the book gives them martial weapons proficiency   which not fit in with their lessened combat role. Also, a good fort save also does not fit their de-emphasize focus on combat.
> 
> By changing the fort save to poor and removing martial weapon proficiency, I think the Radiant Servant of Pelor fits the noble healer concept better and is better balanced with other characters. As is, the RSoP is definitely overpowered in both role and powers.
> 
> -Psiblade




I disagree about the FORT save. Its almost required of an Undead Fighting specialized class.


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## danielinthewolvesden (Jul 20, 2004)

Eh. It's a cleric that turns better (often derided as useless in the higher levels) and has a tint bit better healin- I say a tiny bit, as in order to get the best use of it's better healing nearly every Domain spell slot has to be taken up by the Healing Domain spells- and altho the Healing domain isn't bad- the spells are a waste of a clerics very powerful ability to memorize other spells in his Domains.  Yes, you get a bonus domain- which you really can't use because you have to memorize all your domain spells as healing domain spells.

Martial weapon prof?  Ok this puzzled me, makes no sense- but unless you sneak in for a one level dip, it isn't very helpful as this PrC won't be doing much in melee combat.    The D6 hurts a lot.  But I can see that Martial Weapons might be a typo.

I played a 3.5 Radiant Servant. A boring healing Monkey unless you are in a high undead campaign.

It's not powerful, in fact it's a tad weak.  But it would kick butt in a campaign with lots of undead. Otherwise "ook, heal, ook, heal, ook"


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## Dthamilaye (Jul 20, 2004)

Epametheus said:
			
		

> Druids already get cool powers and 9th level spells from their base class, so they've got the most to lose from going after a PrC. Do we have anyone here that's played a druid and actually went for a PrC?




16th druid in my campaign opted for 4 levels of Natures Warrior (5 lvl PrC from Complete Warrior). That way he gets 4 attacks before epic levels. (Ie, +16 BAB at 20th level). Because his wildshape ability continues as with druid when taking NW, he  does not lose any druid special abilities (except animal companion stuff).

He also loses 2 levels of spellcasting, but gets few nice abilities instead. Later on, he can get those few levels back when going 21st+ levels, so in the end, he  loses only 2 caster levels (correctable with Practiced Spellcaster feat).


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## two (Jul 20, 2004)

One obvious point to be made, for people that have played RSOP PC's, is that talking about your personal PC is immaterial to the discussion.  Whether you found it weak OR strong OR average.

You can have the most overpowered PRC in the world, plop it down in a campaign setting unsuited for its strengths, have a player use poor tactics, etc. and it can come off as weak.  Or a terrible PRC can seem strong in certain settings.  It's really immaterial.

When discussing PRC design, you have to step back and see the big picture - think not only about your local campaign, but the thousands of others taking place across the globe.  Balance what the PRC is GIVEN, vs. what is TAKEN away, then attempt to see the effect of this on an "average" campaign (not your own personal campaign).  Attempt to balance it vs. many types of players, heavy roll players, heavy role players, tactical geniuses, tactical nitwits, etc. etc. 

Obviously with one RSOP in the party all undead except the most powerful of the powerful are jokes.  How much is this worth in the "average" campaign?  Or Martial Proficiency?  How painful are the prerequisites typically?  Etc.

In sum, RSOP does seem very powerful.  Many bonuses, few drawbacks.  And who said +2 to will saves within 10 feet is fluff?  Morale bonuses to will saves are VERY hard to come by (not simply a bard's bonus vs. fear!), and if the party keeps 2-3 pc's within 10' of the RSOP most of the time -- that +2 will save bonus will "make or break" a PC within 3-4 saves.  Remember, +2 to will save is a feat.  Giving everything within 10' a stackable feat, for an important save, is...well.. not fluff.  It "WILL SAVE" a party member rather quickly, ha ha.


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## Scion (Jul 20, 2004)

Being forced to stay within a very short distance of someone sounds like a drawback to me  area of effect spells, and similar types (all targets within X distance), are very common. Spreading out is often a very good option in combat.. being forced to stay very close together can get very hindersome very fast.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Jul 20, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Being forced to stay within a very short distance of someone sounds like a drawback to me  area of effect spells, and similar types (all targets within X distance), are very common. Spreading out is often a very good option in combat.. being forced to stay very close together can get very hindersome very fast.




Drawback is the wrong word to use.  It is a limitation on a bonus.  A bonus, however limited, is never a drawback.

IME spreading out is a nice idea, but I do not get to do that as often as I would like.  In real play I would expect to reap that +2 bonus the majority of the time whether I would like to or nor.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jul 20, 2004)

two said:
			
		

> Obviously with one RSOP in the party all undead except the most powerful of the powerful are jokes.




Not really. Ever look at how many HD even mid CR zombies and skeletons have? Ditto for Dread Wraiths, Nightshades, Nightwalkers, and Nightcrawlers (though they actually do qualify as powerful undead). Pretty much any undead creature advanced by HD will be out of the range of all but the most turning maximized cleric.

Any vampire or lich designed to be a boss monster will be toast only if he'd be toast anyway (which is to say, if the cleric has a phylactery of undead turning and uses his greater turning ability).



> How much is this worth in the "average" campaign?  Or Martial Proficiency?  How painful are the prerequisites typically?  Etc.
> 
> In sum, RSOP does seem very powerful.  Many bonuses, few drawbacks.  And who said +2 to will saves within 10 feet is fluff?  Morale bonuses to will saves are VERY hard to come by (not simply a bard's bonus vs. fear!), and if the party keeps 2-3 pc's within 10' of the RSOP most of the time -- that +2 will save bonus will "make or break" a PC within 3-4 saves.  Remember, +2 to will save is a feat.  Giving everything within 10' a stackable feat, for an important save, is...well.. not fluff.  It "WILL SAVE" a party member rather quickly, ha ha.




Will saves are good but you're dramatically understating the number of places to get a morale bonus to will saves:

vs. fear:
Halfling, paladin aura of courage, Cloak of Bravery (Complete Warrior)

vs. enchantments:
Holy Liberator aura of resolve

in general:
Hero's Feast (+1), Heroism (+2), Good Hope (+2), Greater Heroism (+4)

That's more than a few sources of morale bonusses, some of which (heroism, hero's feast) are quite common at mid to high levels.


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## ForceUser (Jul 20, 2004)

The thread that wouldn't die. 

The Aura of Resolve is potent for the fact that - whoever else may or may not be within the radius - the RSoP is _always_ within that radius. It's a freebie +2 to his Will save that stacks with Iron Will. Just another thing to make him that much more potent.

I think my biggest problem with the RSoP is that the illustrations used both in the CD and Dragon magazine incarnations suggest a back-rank, lightly-armored class, and that is blatantly false. My RSoP wore +3 full plate & a +2 heavy shield. With my typical quickened _divine favor_ & _righteous might_ spell buffs going he easily outdamaged the party fighter.

But that's a base cleric issue, not a RS issue. My point is that on top of retaining all the great benefits of a standard cleric, my character had freebie RS stuff too. All he lost was an average of 1 hit point per level, which can be easily made up in magical gear.

There's no real downside to playing this class, so it's overpowered. A RSoP in my campaign will be 7/10 on caster levels, will not gain martial weapon proficiency, will not gain a third domain, and will gain only a single Extra Greater Turning per day. And it'll still be a fantastic class.


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## The Souljourner (Jul 20, 2004)

Giving a cleric +2 to his will saves is like giving a dwarven barbarian +2 to his saves versus poison.  He's already going to pass 95% of the time, so another +2 isn't going to do much.

Seriously... what cleric doesn't have by FAR the best will save in the party already?  And so what if it stacks with iron will?  Who in their right mind takes Iron Will as a cleric?

And yes, the 10' radius makes it pretty worthless most of the time.  Ever had a paladin in the party?  I have, and I can tell you, we never manage to stay inside that aura... maybe one person, most of the time...

Yes, there is no real downside, but the upsides are minor enough that I don't think it matters.  How often is Greater Turning going to be better than a regular turning and 3 rounds of bashing on cowering undead?  Heck, most of the time we gloss over that to save game time, since there's pretty much no way we won't just kill them given a little time.

-The Souljourner


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## Scion (Jul 21, 2004)

Having two of your domains picked out for you ahead of time sounds like a pretty good sized drawback as well 

Also, while limitation may be a better word the point still stands, it is an ability where you trade getting a +2 will save bonus sometimes in exchange for getting slapped by area of effect spells. With people having mounts keeping even most of the party within that radius may be very difficult indeed.

Personally, I'd rather stay away from the group doing that.. slightly lower will save, but I am not in the target zone for all kinds of spells.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jul 21, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> The thread that wouldn't die.




Apparently not.



> There's no real downside to playing this class, so it's overpowered. A RSoP in my campaign will be 7/10 on caster levels, will not gain martial weapon proficiency, will not gain a third domain, and will gain only a single Extra Greater Turning per day. And it'll still be a fantastic class.




Let me know if you have any takers. I wouldn't touch that kind of a "prestige" class with a ten foot pole. If it lost even one cast level, I would probably stay away from the Radiant Servant as written. Losing three, it would be like Order of the Bow Initiate or the Shining Blade of Heironeous: yet another prestige class that's not as powerful as the core class (or classes) it's designed for.


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## The Souljourner (Jul 21, 2004)

Yeah, losing 3 caster levels and crappier hitpoints for what, one extra greater turning and some fluff?  That's total crappage.  Why would anyone ever play that instead of cleric?

Scion has a good point in that in order to take the PrC you *have* to take Sun domain (really crappy spells, decent but not superb granted power) and you need healing domain  (just barely better than not taking a second domain at all) to use one of the main powers.

I agree with Elder-Basilisk... if the prestige class isn't even as good as the base class, then no one but the most die-hard roleplayer will ever take the class.

Not having a downside does not automatically make a PrC overpowered.  Also, we've stated plenty of downsides to the RSoP.

I'm going to be playing one with better than party average stats in our weekly game.  I'll let you all know how it fairs, and if we think it's overpowered.

-The Souljourner


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jul 21, 2004)

I'll agree with you on the healing domain but Sun is a strong domain.

It's first and second level spells aren't too impressive but, Searing Light, Fire Shield (much more effective for clerics than wizards since clerics have the hit points to take a few hits), Flame Strike, Fire Seeds, and Prismatic Sphere are quite impressive. Sumbeam and Sunburst are AMAZING in the right situation too (even if they're only moderately useful otherwise).

There aren't a lot of domains with better spells.



			
				The Souljourner said:
			
		

> Scion has a good point in that in order to take the PrC you *have* to take Sun domain (really crappy spells, decent but not superb granted power) and you need healing domain  (just barely better than not taking a second domain at all) to use one of the main powers.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 21, 2004)

What does a cleric of Pelor even NEED with martial weapon proficiency anyway?!?!? Their deity's chosen weapon is a freakin' MACE!!   That ability should go into "File 13".

And if you don't care too much about those bookoo amounts of turn attempts you get at higher levels of the class, then you could take Domain Spontaneity and use the turn attempts to turn regular cleric spells into your chosen domain(s) spells. But that's assuming that you don't face alot of undead. 

But it does get boring to be nothing but a "walking healing battery".....   That's why alot of people I see on the boards REFUSE to play clerics in the first place!


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 21, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> I'll agree with you on the healing domain but Sun is a strong domain.
> 
> It's first and second level spells aren't too impressive but, Searing Light, Fire Shield (much more effective for clerics than wizards since clerics have the hit points to take a few hits), Flame Strike, Fire Seeds, and Prismatic Sphere are quite impressive. Sumbeam and Sunburst are AMAZING in the right situation too (even if they're only moderately useful otherwise).
> 
> There aren't a lot of domains with better spells.




The Sun domain kicks major arse!! It's one of the better domains out there. So are some of the spells of the Strength domain (not to mention that kickin' ability!   ) Try to find a mid-level cleric who DOESN'T cast spells such as Searing Light and Flame Strike!! Dare ya!   I've yet to have seen any cleric NOT cast those spells. I had one cleric who LOVED to throw around Flame Strikes like nobody's business!! She was only so-so at times in the turning dept (average CHA score and 4-level loss from multiclassing) but she was kick butt in the combat department!


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## danielinthewolvesden (Jul 23, 2004)

two said:
			
		

> One obvious point to be made, for people that have played RSOP PC's, is that talking about your personal PC is immaterial to the discussion.  Whether you found it weak OR strong OR average.
> 
> When discussing PRC design, you have to step back and see the big picture - think not only about your local campaign, but the thousands of others taking place across the globe. In sum, RSOP does seem very powerful.  Many bonuses, few drawbacks.  And who said +2 to will saves within 10 feet is fluff?  .




  Actually, just the opposite. Just _looking_  at a class tells one little- one must actually see it _played_ . 

The D6 is a major powerloss. If you don't believe me, there are scads of ranger players who insited the new 3.5 ranger was _seriously_  nerfed by going from a D10 to a D8.


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## danielinthewolvesden (Jul 23, 2004)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> The Sun domain kicks major arse!! It's one of the better domains out there. So are some of the spells of the Strength domain (not to mention that kickin' ability!   ) Try to find a mid-level cleric who DOESN'T cast spells such as Searing Light and Flame Strike!! Dare ya!   I've yet to have seen any cleric NOT cast those spells. I had one cleric who LOVED to throw around Flame Strikes like nobody's business!! She was only so-so at times in the turning dept (average CHA score and 4-level loss from multiclassing) but she was kick butt in the combat department!




Yesbut- effectively the RSOP doesn't get any spells from _any_  domain 'cept healing.  Taking anything outside the Healing Domain and you waste two major class benefits.  And, Healing domain has the worst selection of spells of them all.  

Like I said- I have played this PrC. Dropped it becuase it was *BORING* .  Unless there are undead, you are completely & utterly a healing monkey. Ook, heal, Ook, heal- rinse & repeat.  Yes, I'd love to have one in the party. "Oh Cleric! I need healing! Here's a nice bannana for you!" But they suck to play. 

Think it's so darn powerful- try playing one.  Oh, but if you do- be sure to bring plenty of Mtn Dew or No-Dooze.


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## The Souljourner (Jul 23, 2004)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> The Sun domain kicks major arse!! ...  Try to find a mid-level cleric who DOESN'T cast spells such as Searing Light and Flame Strike!!




Searing Light and Flamestrike are 3rd and 5th level cleric spells and as Sun domain spells... 3rd and 5th level.  ...whoopee.  If you don't get a bigger selection of spells or get them earlier than usual, it's not much of a benefit.

Fire Seeds is damn cool, Fire Shield is ok, but not spectacular.  Endure elements and heat metal are crap.

... not exactly an inspiring write-up.

It's an ok domain, but nothing to write home about.

-The Souljourner


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jul 23, 2004)

Endure Elements and Heat Metal are the stuff you have to endure to get to the good spells of the domain. From Searing Light on, all of the Sun Domain spells are quite good. The domain power is pretty neat too at low levels when you regularly run into undead that you can turn but won't necessarily destroy. (Turning ordinarily ends a combat, of course, but if there's an evil cleric nearby, he'll just dispel your turning unless you destroyed them--also, incorporeal undead have a nasty habit of floating through walls as they run away, which means that, unless destroyed, they just come back a couple minutes later).

Fire Shield, for instance is extremely good for martial clerics. Wizards can't really afford to cast fire shield and wade into attack range because, while they'll inflict a few hit points on their enemies, they will go down pretty quickly. Clerics, on the other hand, can get their standard's action worth out of fire shield because they have the hit points to take a few hits and the ability to heal themselves when they start fealing the heat.

Of course, a RSOP isn't likely to be a martial cleric and won't get as much milage out of Fire Shield as he might otherwise. Still, it's a very good spell for clerics.



			
				The Souljourner said:
			
		

> Searing Light and Flamestrike are 3rd and 5th level cleric spells and as Sun domain spells... 3rd and 5th level.  ...whoopee.  If you don't get a bigger selection of spells or get them earlier than usual, it's not much of a benefit.
> 
> Fire Seeds is damn cool, Fire Shield is ok, but not spectacular.  Endure elements and heat metal are crap.
> 
> ...


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## ForceUser (Jul 23, 2004)

danielinthewolvesden said:
			
		

> The D6 is a major powerloss. If you don't believe me, there are scads of ranger players who insited the new 3.5 ranger was _seriously_  nerfed by going from a D10 to a D8.



No it isn't. It's an average of one hit point per level. 



> Of course, a RSOP isn't likely to be a martial cleric and won't get as much milage out of Fire Shield as he might otherwise. Still, it's a very good spell for clerics.



I disagree. He gets full plate armor, heavy shields and martial weapon proficiency. That's a martial cleric.


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## two (Jul 23, 2004)

*Rather the point*



			
				danielinthewolvesden said:
			
		

> Yesbut- effectively the RSOP doesn't get any spells from _any_  domain 'cept healing.  Taking anything outside the Healing Domain and you waste two major class benefits.  And, Healing domain has the worst selection of spells of them all.
> 
> Like I said- I have played this PrC. Dropped it becuase it was *BORING* .  Unless there are undead, you are completely & utterly a healing monkey. Ook, heal, Ook, heal- rinse & repeat.  Yes, I'd love to have one in the party. "Oh Cleric! I need healing! Here's a nice bannana for you!" But they suck to play.
> 
> Think it's so darn powerful- try playing one.  Oh, but if you do- be sure to bring plenty of Mtn Dew or No-Dooze.




You have amusingly, and possibly unwittingly, precisely illustrated the point I was making, which you responded to at the top of this page.

Obviously you have played a RSOP, and found it boring because, for reasons entirely of your own chosing, you decided to simply "heal" other party members instead of using the RSOP's martial weapon proficienty, heavy armor proficiency, large number of buffing spells, and good hit points (d8 -> d6 is a loss of one point per level of RSOP, on average) to wade in and do some serious melee damage.  Or use a longbow, or whatever.

My point precisely.  You are in a terrible position to judge the class as a whole, given your skewed personal experience and (seemingly) narrow view of what can or can't be done with a full-caster cleric with martial weapon proficiency plus nice healing benefits and etc. other advantages.

Forgive me if I sound rude, but I'm definately not paying the slightest bit of attention to your personal RSOP experience.  As I said before, the most over-powered PRC can seen weak or lame in a special setting, or with a player doing strange stuff.  It's immaterial to the question of, as a whole, is a PRC powerful, weak, average, overpowered, etc.  Which needs to be looked at not from a micro, rather a macroscopic view.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jul 23, 2004)

two said:
			
		

> You have amusingly, and possibly unwittingly, precisely illustrated the point I was making, which you responded to at the top of this page.
> 
> Obviously you have played a RSOP, and found it boring because, for reasons entirely of your own chosing, you decided to simply "heal" other party members instead of using the RSOP's martial weapon proficienty, heavy armor proficiency, large number of buffing spells, and good hit points (d8 -> d6 is a loss of one point per level of RSOP, on average) to wade in and do some serious melee damage.  Or use a longbow, or whatever.




Playing a RSoP as a combat focussed cleric is certainly possible. However, despite the martial weapon proficiency, it's definitely a suboptimal choice.

First, martial clerics generally choose different domains. War, Strength, Destruction, Luck, and Travel tend to be popular with martial clerics. Elf, Dwarf, and Metal tend to be quite popular among the non-core domains. None of those are an option for a character who is going to get the most out of his RSoP levels. His domains need to be Sun and Healing. And, while Fire Shield is a very good spell for a martial cleric, using it will mean not using his extra healing ability to its fullest since he's using his 4th level slot for something other than cure critical wounds (the spell with the most significant individual curing potential increase due to RSoP powers).

Furthermore, the RSoP has to take 8 ranks of Heal skill and the Extra Turning feat. For a human cleric, that still leaves him with two feats before 6th level, and 8 skill points (assuming a 10 int). For a nonhuman cleric, that only leaves him with one free feat and no free skill points (unless he neglects his Concentration skill which martial clerics are loath to do). 

A martial cleric focussed on archery really needs point blank, precise and rapid shot and Zen Archery helps a lot too. There's not really enough feats for a non-human RSoP to be a decent archer before 9th level and even though a human could become good by 6th level, they'd have to make it up to 6th level as an archery focussed cleric using a crossbow.

A martial cleric focussed on melee combat generally finds power attack, weapon focus, and Quicken Spell vital. A non-human cleric CAN do that but he'll have no free feats before 9th level and will need to replace his main weapon after becoming a Radiant Servant if he wants to take advantage of his martial weapon proficiencies. A human cleric has a bit more flexibility, but he still faces the need to replace his main weapon when he gets martial weapon proficiency.

So, all of that adds up to this: A RSoP can still be a martial cleric if he wants to and can still kick the bad guys butts up close and personal. But he won't be as good at it as non-prestige class clerics who are designed to do so.


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## The Souljourner (Jul 23, 2004)

What Elder-Basilisk said.  Assuming you ignore martial weapon proficiency as a typo (it is completely out of character for an otherwise very characterful prestige class), RSoP is flat out worse than a single class cleric in melee.

I do dispute that you have to take Sun and Healing.  I'm playing a RSoP in a game where my old character died, and I'm not taking Healing until I get the bonus domain.  Yes, even with the RSoP's extra abilities with the Healing domain _it still sucks that much_.  I'm taking Glory, since it's a hell of a lot more useful than Healing (and I'm taking Augmented Healing as a feat, which blows the Healing Domain's granted power out of the water).

A RSoP is better than a straight cleric at two things - turning and healing.  And healing only very slightly.  Yeah, immune to disease, +2 will save, whatever.  When was the last time you saw a cleric worrying about diseases or will saves?

Much of the problems people are attributing to the PrC really stem from how powerful clerics are in general.  RSoP really aren't any more powerful.

I'm definitely not going to be sitting back and healing with my RSoP, but I really can't see him being any more potent than a normal cleric unless undead are involved... more flavorful, sure, but not more powerful in any real game shifting way.

-The Souljourner


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## danielinthewolvesden (Jul 24, 2004)

two said:
			
		

> instead of using the RSOP's martial weapon proficienty, heavy armor proficiency, large number of buffing spells, and good hit points (d8 -> d6 is a loss of one point per level of RSOP, on average) to wade in and do some serious melee damage.  .




  D6 is low average. NOT "good".    Really, when the 3.5 ranger came out the reduction from a D10 to a D8 had many experienced ranger players saying they could no longer be a front rank fighter. 

Like The Souljourner & The Elder-basilisk both wisely said- if you wanted a melle build cleric- the RSoP would be the last one you'd take.  Oh, don't get me wrong- my cleric did whap a few monsters with his mace.  But when the choice was down to doing 26 points of healing to one of our guys with no chance of failure or a D8+2 with a 50-50 shot of hitting to a bad guy- there is no real choice if you're a team player.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 24, 2004)

I, for one, disliked the ranger's reduced hit die.   The same would go for the Radiant Servant's. Not one for a melee fighter either. This is a "stand back and be second rank personnel" type of class. Definitely not a front-liner, IMO.

I've built a melee cleric, granted starting at 11th level. Human. Concentrated on fighting-related feats and was in the front line. So was a different cleric (who did worship Pelor, the first didn't). I don't think I would with this one. I'd be in the back lines like a wizard I'm playing in a different game.


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## Michael Tree (Jul 24, 2004)

The Souljourner said:
			
		

> Legions of undead turn to smoke.  Yeah, except that a cleric of Pelor that didn't take this class could do the same thing, just by taking Disciple of the Sun and the Sun and the Glory domains.  The prestige class has an ability that just duplicates the disciple of the sun feat.



The disciple of the sun feat does let a cleric do extra greater turnings, but at a cost of two turn uses instead of one.  That at least is giving something up for the power.  A RSoP does it for free, 3+cha times per day (ie. on all his turn attempts except the ones from greater turning.)  That's a significant difference.

IMO the PrC would be much better balanced if the martial weapons were removed, and the greater turning ability replaced with the Disciple of the Sun feat.  It would still be significantly better than a cleric, but at least not grossly so.


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## Michael Tree (Jul 24, 2004)

danielinthewolvesden said:
			
		

> The D6 is a major powerloss. If you don't believe me, there are scads of ranger players who insited the new 3.5 ranger was _seriously_  nerfed by going from a D10 to a D8.




Firstly, just because people complained about it doesn't make it true.  There were also scads of peole who insisted even more vehenemtly that the mystic theurge was ridiculously overpowered, and experience has taught us that if anything it's slightly underpowered.

Second, the difference in hit dice is most noticiable at the very lowest levels, where one or two HP can make a big difference.  At 1st level 10hp is significantly tougher than 8hp.  But by 7th level, the earliest a cleric can take RSoP, one or two hit points make little or no difference.


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## The Souljourner (Jul 24, 2004)

As I've said, I'm going with the assumption that martial weapon proficiency is a typo (well, likely a copy and paste mistake).  

I also don't agree with the "look at how everyone complained about the ranger".  Rangers have never been uber fighters except against their favored enemies.  D8 hitpoints is *fine* for them.  Hell, they're about 100 times better now than they were before.  Now I actually really want to play one straight up through high levels.... can't say that about most any other core class.

Yes, starting at 7th level, getting d6 hitpoints is not the end of the world.  You've already created a nice little base of hitpoints.  However, it is still a drawback, and for what is generally a second string melee class, it's going from mediocre to poor in a category that is a bad thing to be low on.  

Think of it this way, if d8 to d6 isn't that much, then d4 up to d6 isn't that much.... the RSoP is now as close to a wizard's hitpoints as a cleric's.  

-The Souljourner


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## billd91 (Nov 15, 2004)

At the risk of resurrecting a thread that should probably not be touched, why does the RSoP have the martial weapon ability? Greyhawk flavor. According to GH lore, the Church of Pelor has been becoming more martial over the years, probably due to the influence of the Greyhawk Wars, including the Great Northern Crusade.
So, I think the power has more to do with capturing campaign flavor rather than class balance. Just thought I'd bring that up for  your edification.


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## Testament (Nov 16, 2004)

Not a combat cleric?!  What are you people on?!  GLORY DOMAIN people, GLORY DOMAIN.  Take a look at its granted power, and then you'll see why undead turn to smoke.  More importantly, they get Holy Sword as a spell.

Then take divine metamagic, quicken spell, and see the enemy die screaming.  If they aren't undead, quickened holy sword and normal divine power in the first round.  If they are undead, then you go blam.

It's the cleric plus.  No real prerequisites, full clerical advancement for spells and turning, and huge gains.  1 HP a level is more than an acceptable tradeoff.


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## Squire James (Nov 16, 2004)

My opinion is that the RSoP is overpowered, but not as much as it seems.  I'd make 3 changes, one of which is more a fix of a personal dislike than a power imbalance:

1.  I dislike mechanics that give a characters a whole bunch of "turning pools" of 3+Cha attempts, so I made a general House Rule that all turning abilities draw from a single pool of 3+Cha attempts, possibly modified by Extra Turning.  The RSoP Greater Turning attempts count as regular turning attempts.

2.  Given that Pelor's favored weapon isn't martial, I don't see why RSoP's should be given martial weapon proficiency.  There seems to be no strong need for it.

3.  My final test for a spellcasting PrC that allows full progression is:  do the limitations the class forces you into even out with the advantages you would get over the base class?  IMO, the answer here is still "no", though not by a huge degree.  So I advise removing a single level of spell progression.

Then it's a question of which level gets the spell progression hit.  First level is harsh, and level 10 would discourage class completion (especially given the rather weak "finishing ability").  I think good choices would be levels 3, 5, or 8 because they get pretty good abilities at those levels to compensate.  I'd say level 5 is fair enough.

Another alternative is to nix spell progression at levels 3, 6, and 9, but compensate by having the Healing abilities work on all Healing spells the RSoP casts rather than just the domain spells.  I hesitate to fool with the class to this degree, but I'd rather make a PrC's strengths and weaknesses extreme than mild.  You give up a lot, but you gain a lot!


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## SJPadbury (Nov 16, 2004)

I'd like opinions on the following 2 uses/abuses of the RSoP:

Craft Wand + Supreme Healing + Cure Critical Wounds in the RSoP's Domain Slot.
Since the Metamagic feats don't cause it to use a higher level slot, you can craft a wand that cures 4d8/2 +62 (Average of 71) assuming a 20th caster level....  Base price is 750*4*20=60000 GP or 30000 GP and 2400 XP to craft, as opposed to 750*9*20=135000 GP or 67500 GP and 5400 XP assuming there weren't a cap to wands in the first place!

The other one is Supreme Healing + Domain Spontanaity. When you use Domain Spontanaity, it's still a domain spell, right? So you can exchange a turn attempt to spontaneously cast a healing spell that is empowered and maximized, and you can use your domain slots to memorize your Sun or Glory spells, instead of saving them for Cures that you wouldn't have put there otherwise...

I realize I've probably missed something glaringly obvious in these tricks, and I'm tired, so please be gentle in your corrections. 

-Steve


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## Healbot13 (Dec 12, 2014)

Endur said:


> I played a Radiant Servant of Pelor with the Glory, Sun, and Healing domains.
> 
> It was the most powerful cleric I have ever seen.
> 
> ...




I completely agree, I am playing one as well and did everyone in this post forget about the Spontaneous Domain Caster Variant in PHB 2 on page 36, because that is what I did with my healing domain. I was weaker for the first few levels since I essentially cost myself a domain to have the spontaneous cure spell ability as being able to exchange my spells for healing domain spells. But I saw the potential. I never prepare a healing spell, and when I need one I just pick a spell at that level that I have prepared and then cast the heal spell from the domain, and as a RSoP, bam Empowered and Maximized healing spell every time. I am a major healbot, but my character is complete utility in his spell usage so I don't really mind. I am just saying though the people complaining that it is broken have missed this little detail which makes those problems so much worse in the long run.


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## cavalier973 (Dec 12, 2014)

> I played a Radiant Servant of Pelor with the Glory, Sun, and Healing domains.
> 
> It was the most powerful cleric I have ever seen.




The cleric is so powerful he can bring threads back from the dead ten years later.


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## Ranes (Dec 12, 2014)

cavalier973 said:


> The cleric is so powerful he can bring threads back from the dead ten years later.




I agree and was about to add: well resurrected, Healbot13, and welcome to the boards.


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## Endur (Feb 23, 2015)

Healbot13 said:


> I completely agree, I am playing one as well and did everyone in this post forget about the Spontaneous Domain Caster Variant in PHB 2 on page 36, because that is what I did with my healing domain.




Welcome to the message boards.  And No we didn't forget about PHB 2, PHB 2 wasn't out until two years after this thread was posted.  This was a 2004 thread.


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