# Wheel of Time Discussion - Spoilers(with book spoilers)



## Maxperson

It's time to create this thread I think.  More and more of us have seen at least some of the episodes. I still have the third one to see.  

My thoughts so far are that the first episode was a bit disjointed and hard to follow for the first half or so.  I'm also not sure how I feel about the changes.  Perrin's marriage, I'm looking at you.  The second episode was much more enjoyable.  It was much easier to follow and the story moved forward at a better pace.


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## TheSword

So I had high hopes. It doesn’t quite hit the mark for me. Something feels off. My concern is too much angst.

Things I Liked

Trollocs. Jesus Christ these things are beasts! Awesomely done.

Moiraine. Totally Boss. Has the balance between ruthless, powerful and fragile. Dominates every episode.

Channelling. I didn’t know what to expect. I like it. It simply conveys the impression of gathering magic.

Egwene. I like her confidence and pragmatism. She has charisma.

The scene with the wolves. It was fun.

The dream sequence. Bats? As creepy as it should be though.

The White Cloaks Style. A little one dimensional but they look pretty cool. I imagined knights templars but wasn’t disappointed with their slightly punky robed look.

Things That Missed the Mark

Mashadar. None of the quiet creeping menace of the silvery mist. It was a missed opportunity.

Where was Ordeith?

Where were the trollocs in shader lorgoth. Driven by the forsaken?

Where was Tams farewell to Rand?

Why isn’t Rand very nice? He’s supposed to be a serious, but charismatic guy who does the right thing. He seems like a bit of a brat.

I have no idea why the opened with a weird voice over dressing scene.

The scenery feels… too much… not like real places. I love mountains, but there are definitely too many mountains.

Where is the characterization. Apart from Moiraine and Egwene I don’t feel like I know anything about their characters.

In overview. Acceptable but not gripping. I score it so far a B-
Better than Shanara’s F, but no where near Game of Thrones first season A.


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## Mordhau

I've watched the first three.  I think it's better than it had any right to be, really.  (I was expecting something along the lines of the quality of the Shannara tv show)

There's a lot of talk about the changes in details, but overall I would argue that this adaptation is extraordinarily faithful to the spirit of the books.  It's really taking it's time to do the worldbuilding from the books, something which may not go down well with a wider audience - we'll see,  This is really fantasy for fantasy fans, and is not embarrassed to be.

It suffers of course, because the characters are just not especially compelling, there's no Tyrion Lannister here, but that's the source material really.  It's highly derivative but then that's the source material again and they seem to be mostly doing a good job of avoiding adding storytelling cliches that weren't already in the books.


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## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> Things I Liked
> 
> Trollocs. Jesus Christ these things are beasts! Awesomely done.



Agreed.  They were really well done.


TheSword said:


> Moiraine. Totally Boss. Has the balance between ruthless, powerful and fragile. Dominates every episode.



Agreed again.


TheSword said:


> Channelling. I didn’t know what to expect. I like it. It simply conveys the impression of gathering magic.



I like how they do it.  The gathering of the power is a good way to express it.  


TheSword said:


> Egwene. I like her confidence and pragmatism. She has charisma.



I'm conflicted on Egwene.  I do really like Nynaeve, though.


TheSword said:


> The scene with the wolves. It was fun.



All of the scenes with the wolves.


TheSword said:


> The dream sequence. Bats? As creepy as it should be though.



Yep.


TheSword said:


> The White Cloaks Style. A little one dimensional but they look pretty cool. I imagined knights templars but wasn’t disappointed with their slightly punky robed look.



I thought were portrayed well.  In the books they were very one dimensional as well.  Only the elder Bornhold seems to have thoughts that people could dislike the White Cloaks and not be darkfriends.


TheSword said:


> Things That Missed the Mark
> 
> Mashadar. None of the quiet creeping menace of the silvery mist. It was a missed opportunity.



Maybe the mist would have cost more money.  The darkness spreading around them was still pretty creepy and menacing.  


TheSword said:


> Where was Ordeith?



He doesn't exist.  Padan Fain was at the Two Rivers and he goes into Shadar Logoth after the group leaves.  There mashadar mingles with the dark one's influence and changes him into Ordeith.   You're probably thinking of Mordeth, and I wondered the same thing.  Again, it was probably an attempt to save money.


TheSword said:


> Where were the trollocs in shader lorgoth. Driven by the forsaken?



Checking the bank account for the series 


TheSword said:


> Where was Tams farewell to Rand?



That I missed and I think should have happened. It would have been a fairly short addition to the episode.


TheSword said:


> Why isn’t Rand very nice? He’s supposed to be a serious, but charismatic guy who does the right thing. He seems like a bit of a brat.



He shows up in episode three at the inn.  


TheSword said:


> The scenery feels… too much… not like real places. I love mountains, but there are definitely too many mountains.



Yeah.  There are definitely too many mountains.  There weren't that many in the book.


TheSword said:


> Where is the characterization. Apart from Moiraine and Egwene I don’t feel like I know anything about their characters.



Nynaeve we learn about a bit in episode 3.  We pick up on some of Perrin and Egwene as they travel after leaving Shadar Logoth.  Matt shows up a bit at the inn as well, but he's a bit dark by then.


TheSword said:


> In overview. Acceptable but not gripping. I score it so far a B-
> Better than Shanara’s F, but no where near Game of Thrones first season A.



Agreed.  

One of the things I really liked is the way they have been using blood imagery.  When Nynaeve killed the trolloc and the flame of Tar Valon appeared in the water, and when the darkfriend was killed and her blood faded into the mountain scene with Moiraine.


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## Zardnaar

I liked it a bit more. B or a B+. Not as good as say Season1 GoT first three episodes.  I think that's more the source material though eg each character gets a pov scene and each episode is several of them strung togather.

 Wife asked me what fans think of the book. Personally I gave up but the overall idea is good the execution was off. Meandering, crap characters etc. The world's good.


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## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> Perrin's marriage, I'm looking at you.



I see where they are going with that, but that just might make it worse. The change feels like Brandon Sanderson more than Robert Jordan.


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## Herschel

Watched the first two episodes and it's hit-and-miss.

The good: Scenery and creatures are quite solid. The story seems to be moving along. Most of the main characters are solid and character building is okay. The separate factions aren't fleshed out yet, but there are building blocks without tedious exposition. 

The bad: Josha Stradowski (Rand) doesn't seem an actor so much as a block of wood they taught how to whine. Rosamund Pike and Kate Fleetwood have hair color that just looks so unnatural on them and breaks my immersion even though they're both talented actors. So does Eamon Valda having the high-pitched, braying voice of the porn cameraman from Love Actually and the guy whining about 'Council streets' and 'council potholes' from Doctor Who "Fear Her".


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## payn

Didnt read the books. I think the shooting location is beautiful. The effects are pretty good. The Trollock things looked mostly good, but occasionally cheesy. I kind of wish they would have skipped the info dump at the beginning and just had it discussed between characters in exposition, but at least it was short. Feels like LotR amped up.

Oh, the questioner guy? Yeah I like the cut of his scabbard, thats my kind of inquisitor.


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## Zardnaar

Google tells me it was filmed in Prague. 
The mountains are the Carpathians?


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## Sacrosanct

It’s been decades since I read the books, so it’s all only somewhat familiar. The details I don’t recall.

And I’ve only seen episode one so far, but it feels like they should have named that episode, “Rand Interrupts Egwene.”


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## wicked cool

After 3-
special effects good (did feel at times Trollocs dipped into bad but also great at times)
Acting -average to poor. There’s not a single performance as good as a secondary character in got or equivalent (I would argue the actors in magicians are better ) so this goes into casting 
Scenery/locations good
Costumes-good and bad. Rands coat looks very modern along with his hair
Now as a casual fan who gave up on this series they are as of right now not giving a lot of direction for the viewer. It comes off as groups of people are just walking around looking for the dragon.

show right now is a c- for it’s budget which I thought was substantial 
Graded below
Obviously GOT
I would argue the acting in Witcher 
I would argue acting in the magicians 
Shadow and bone has actors that are better and is easier for audience to follow 

if it stays like this it won’t get 3 seasons


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## Parmandur

wicked cool said:


> if it stays like this it won’t get 3 seasons



Well, it already has 3 seasons in the bank, at least.


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## Zardnaar

Parmandur said:


> Well, it already has 3 seasons in the bank, at least.




 If it does poorly they can always cancel them. 

  All they'll care about is the amount that watch or uptick in subscriptions. 

  I wouldn't pay much attention to hyperbole one way or another.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan

Parmandur said:


> I see where they are going with that, but that just might make it worse. The change feels like Brandon Sanderson more than Robert Jordan.



Actually, that is incorrect. Brandon Sanderson commented on the Wheel of Time subreddit discussing some of the consulting he did with this series, and how he didn't want Perrin's wife to be killed.


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## Mercurius

I'm surprised that peopled loved the trollocs . They were _almost _really good, but so obviously fake, and at times really bad. I liked the look of them - they were more fearsome than I remember from the books, although its been decades - but their movements looked like 20-year old CGI. Isn't this supposed to be super high budget? Hopefully they'll be polished up over the next season or two.

In fact, that's my feeling of the first episode (haven't seen the other two yet): Shows some promise, but is also quite lacking. As some have mentioned, it splits the difference between the awful Shannara (Xena-esque without the charm ) and GoT. If it is starting that way, maybe it will improve.

But yeah, part of the problem is the casting. Rand is dull, and very much seems like another Hayden Christiansen. Mat was probably the best of the group. Nynaeve was solid, Perrin and Egwene OK. Rosamund Pike was good, as expected. Lan was OK.

All that said, I mostly enjoyed it and my daughters (13 and 16) really liked it, so it is something to watch with them.


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## Mercurius

One more thing, this time positive. I liked that they didn't go for yet another full-on Medieval vibe. I'm not sure that what they did worked very well, but at least they tried to veer a bit from standard Medieval fantasy. Two Rivers felt a bit like a mix of far-future bucolic dystopia, hippy commune, and even tones of the Wild West. It was different than I expected, and I kind of liked it.


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## Mordhau

Mercurius said:


> One more thing, this time positive. I liked that they didn't go for yet another full-on Medieval vibe. I'm not sure that what they did worked very well, but at least they tried to veer a bit from standard Medieval fantasy. Two Rivers felt a bit like a mix of far-future bucolic dystopia, hippy commune, and even tones of the Wild West. It was different than I expected, and I kind of liked it.



I actually thought the whole thing looked like modern D&D art.

Or in other words, I thought it really went for a standard fantasy look - which is not at all medieval.


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## Mercurius

Mordhau said:


> I actually thought the whole thing looked like modern D&D art.
> 
> Or in other words, I thought it really went for a standard fantasy look - which is not at all medieval.



OK, fair enough. I still think it had its own ingredients, and I can't think of another film/series that felt truly similar.


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## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> One more thing, this time positive. I liked that they didn't go for yet another full-on Medieval vibe. I'm not sure that what they did worked very well, but at least they tried to veer a bit from standard Medieval fantasy. Two Rivers felt a bit like a mix of far-future bucolic dystopia, hippy commune, and even tones of the Wild West. It was different than I expected, and I kind of liked it.



The books do take place in the future of our world, after a couple of apocalypses, both nuclear and magical.

The overall setting goes for more of an 18th century, "Enlightenment" era vibe than Medieval, socially and technologically.


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## Mordhau

Mercurius said:


> OK, fair enough. I still think it had its own ingredients, and I can't think of another film/series that felt truly similar.



Oh yeah.  I think it's actually the first tv series to actually capture some of the look and feel of fantasy art.

The closest equivalent I can think of is the way the Lord of the Rings movies built on existing Tolkien art.


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## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> The books do take place in the future of our world, after a couple of apocalypses, both nuclear and magical.
> 
> The overall setting goes for more of an 18th century, "Enlightenment" era vibe than Medieval, socially and technologically.



Yeah, I know - and it hinted at those qualities, although not (yet) the Enlightenment era. 


Mordhau said:


> Oh yeah.  I think it's actually the first tv series to actually capture some of the look and feel of fantasy art.
> 
> The closest equivalent I can think of is the way the Lord of the Rings movies built on existing Tolkien art.



Yeah, although I suppose Darrell Sweet was the iconic Wheel of Time artist and it didn't feel drawn form his art at all (thankfully, imo).


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## Maxperson

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Actually, that is incorrect. Brandon Sanderson commented on the Wheel of Time subreddit discussing some of the consulting he did with this series, and how he didn't want Perrin's wife to be killed.



What was the point of giving him a wife in the first place?


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## doctorbadwolf

Parmandur said:


> I see where they are going with that, but that just might make it worse. The change feels like Brandon Sanderson more than Robert Jordan.



So I haven’t watched yet, but I also don’t care about spoilers at all.  

This worries me. Faile is one of my wife’s favorite characters, and Perrin’s story overall is pretty much the most important to me as a reader. Messing with that…really worries me.


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## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> So I haven’t watched yet, but I also don’t care about spoilers at all.
> 
> This worries me. Faile is one of my wife’s favorite characters, and Perrin’s story overall is pretty much the most important to me as a reader. Messing with that…really worries me.



Yeah.  I liked his story a lot as well.  His wife dies, so it leaves it open for him to meet and marry Faile, but I still don't get why they gave him this wife in the first place.  He also seems to have left his axe behind, and that had story significance as well.


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## Parmandur

doctorbadwolf said:


> So I haven’t watched yet, but I also don’t care about spoilers at all.
> 
> This worries me. Faile is one of my wife’s favorite characters, and Perrin’s story overall is pretty much the most important to me as a reader. Messing with that…really worries me.



Yeah, haven't seen it yet, either, but that's a concerning development.


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## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  I liked his story a lot as well.  His wife dies, so it leaves it open for him to meet and marry Faile, but I still don't get why they gave him this wife in the first place.  He also seems to have left his axe behind, and that had story significance as well.



It seems that they want to set up Perrin's later angst, but that suggest to me that the writers don't adequately grasp the tremendous PTSD Perrin went through after book 4, which Jordan clearly did as a Vietnam vet.


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## Mordhau

I think it's part of a general attempt to make the main characters a bit more interesting - like Matt's parents and his sisters.


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## Campbell

I'm actually liking Rand a good deal so far. Where he's a bit of a prat it's understandable to me (his feelings are hurt). His characterization here is an improvement over the books to me. Feels more like a person and less like a Mary Sue.


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## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  I liked his story a lot as well.  His wife dies, so it leaves it open for him to meet and marry Faile, but I still don't get why they gave him this wife in the first place.  He also seems to have left his axe behind, and that had story significance as well.



Oh jeez. Why on earth have him leave the axe… 

Man I really hope they’ve got a solid plan, there.


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## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> Oh jeez. Why on earth have him leave the axe…
> 
> Man I really hope they’ve got a solid plan, there.



I have to re-watch episode one.  It was hard to follow and I want to see where he lost it.


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## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> I have to re-watch episode one.  It was hard to follow and I want to see where he lost it.



Yeah I mean, the axe has to be important for the impact of him forging not-Mjolnir


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## Urriak Uruk

Just watched the first episode... it's ok. The very beginning is pretty rough, it just jumps in right away with a voice-over lore dump. No time to gestate characters or setting, just "Here's the story!"

Felt a lot like David Lynch's Dune, jumping in straight away with Princess Irulan lore-dumping info. I don't like it. It's ok to not explain the main story in the first 5 minutes. Game of Thrones certainly doesn't in it's first episode, but it's a fantastic pilot episode.


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## TheSword

It definitely feels very D&D though. More so than any other series I’ve seen. Which is nice.

It’s definitely less confusing than the Witcher. Which with its constant jumping around was barely coherent at times. Though I agree had an excellent cast.


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## Mordhau

Maxperson said:


> I have to re-watch episode one.  It was hard to follow and I want to see where he lost it.



It may turn up.  I was wondering where their bows were.  And then suddenly we have a shot with Rand with a bow on his back when he hadn't been carrying one at all.

And the sword kind of reappears from nowhere at all.

(It's possible they could have been on their horses, and they managed to grab them when they fled Shadar Logoth and lost the horses).


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## TheSword

To be fair, Rand has a bow at a few points. When they hear wolves on the way to Edmonds field with Tam he points it into the forest. He also shoots at the Trolloc that attack his farmstead.


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## Mordhau

TheSword said:


> To be fair, Rand has a bow at a few points. When they hear wolves on the way to Edmonds field with Tam he points it into the forest. He also shoots at the Trolloc that attack his farmstead.



I mean after they started travelling.


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## TheSword

Mordhau said:


> I mean after they started travelling.



I’m about to watch episode 3. Then I’m gonna watch through again. I have a feeling I may have been a bit harsh.

I was thinking back to episode 1 of GOT and how little happened in the first episode. An ambush, an execution, a party, and a defenestration (kind of). With some whores, wolves and archery contests thrown in for measure. Looking back, John Snow was a moody git, so was Sansa and they end up on an amazing arc.

What I need to do is look at the Wheel of Time as something to enjoy in and of itself rather than where it fits into the full story of the books. Judge it against the start of GOT and not the full experience GOT it turned out to be. The first few seasons of GOT were exceptionally good and kinda went downhill and drifted. WOT has time to find its feet. I also think WOT champions world building and layering of myth, legend and reality. It needs time to build.


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## TheSword

Just finished three aaaand…

… really like it!

Actually got to see both Rand and Matt as decent people. Really liked the traveling people and the dark friend. Thom Merillion was excellent.


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## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> Just finished three aaaand…
> 
> … really like it!
> 
> Actually got to see both Rand and Matt as decent people. Really liked the traveling people and the dark friend. Thom Merillion was excellent.



Yeah.  Episode 3 worked on Matt, Rand and Perrin quite a bit.  Thom so far doesn't strike me as the court bard turned gleeman, though.  He's rougher than he was in the books.  He definitely does the gleeman part well, though. Hopefully the court bard stuff comes through a bit in the next few episodes.


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## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah I mean, the axe has to be important for the impact of him forging not-Mjolnir



I re-watched and the last time Perrin has the axe is in the Two Rivers when his wife dies.  Maybe they will give him another one later.


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## TheSword

So rewatched all three, and I was definitely harsh. I think I’ve reset me expectations.

The ferry scene was great. The Myrdraal is really well done.

Also loved the scene where Egwene touches the true source for the first time.

Rand isn’t as whiny as I thought he was. His accent is a bit weird but I think it will grow on me. [Edit. just realized he’s Dutch!]

I think a lot of things that don’t come out in the first three episodes, like Rand getting the sword might come out in flash back.


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## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> So rewatched all three, and I was definitely harsh. I think I’ve reset me expectations.
> 
> The ferry scene was great. The Myrdraal is really well done.
> 
> Also loved the scene where Egwene touches the true source for the first time.
> 
> Rand isn’t as whiny as I thought he was. His accent is a bit weird but I think it will grow on me.
> 
> I think a lot of things that don’t come out in the first three episodes, like Rand getting the sword might come out in flash back.



Yeah.  When I watched it for the second time I thought Rand was less whiny as well.  And I like both Moiraine and Lan even more.  I think those are my two favorite characters, which is probably not good seeing as they are not main characters.


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## Mort

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  When I watched it for the second time I thought Rand was less whiny as well.  And I like both Moiraine and Lan even more.  I think those are my two favorite characters, which is probably not good seeing as they are not main characters.




IMO Rosamund Pike does as good a job as could possibly be hoped for with Moraine. it's not catching lightning in a bottle like GoT did with Peter Dinklage but (again IMO) she's a great fit for the role.

As for everything else, the show did just enough for me to keep watching - I may watch again to see if it's better a 2nd time.


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## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> I re-watched and the last time Perrin has the axe is in the Two Rivers when his wife dies.  Maybe they will give him another one later.



I…just watched up to that point. I don’t know if I’ll keep watching.  

It’s like they want to front load the major character developments for the main characters, and decided Perrin needs to leave the Two Rivers already having PTSD. 

idk. We stopped the show and turned it off just after he accidentally kills his wife. It just…I can’t wrap my head around why the hell they thought this was a good idea. I don’t even understand how people are watching past that scene, tbh. Why bother?  

Honestly between this and Matt’s family being used to make Matt a desperate jerk right from the jump, nearly all my excitement for the show is dead.  

My wife wants to try to keep watching tomorrow. I will probably join her, but I’m not holding my breath that the show will be able to bring me back in.


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## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> I…just watched up to that point. I don’t know if I’ll keep watching.
> 
> It’s like they want to front load the major character developments for the main characters, and decided Perrin needs to leave the Two Rivers already having PTSD.
> 
> idk. We stopped the show and turned it off just after he accidentally kills his wife. It just…I can’t wrap my head around why the hell they thought this was a good idea. I don’t even understand how people are watching past that scene, tbh. Why bother?
> 
> Honestly between this and Matt’s family being used to make Matt a desperate jerk right from the jump, nearly all my excitement for the show is dead.
> 
> My wife wants to try to keep watching tomorrow. I will probably join her, but I’m not holding my breath that the show will be able to bring me back in.



The second episode is better than the first and the third better than the second.  I'm going to keep going, but I was definitely not happy with the first half of episode 1.


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## Olgar Shiverstone

We just started watching. My spouse is struggling with it a bit -- very dark in the nighttime scenes, and the sound balance feels a bit off. She is having a hard time understanding the dialogue (part volume related to background music, part accents) so I'm having to repeat a lot of dialog.


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## Maxperson

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> We just started watching. My spouse is struggling with it a bit -- very dark in the nighttime scenes, and the sound balance feels a bit off. She is having a hard time understanding the dialogue (part volume related to background music, part accents) so I'm having to repeat a lot of dialog.



Yeah.  I had that issue with episode 1 as well.  Episodes 2 and 3 were easier to understand.


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## TheSword

I think part of it, is picking up their accents.

Incidentally don’t forget they have advanced everyone’s ages. It’s pretty plausible that one of them would have married.

Perrins character was always strong and savage in combat. In the books it makes clear that he’s gentle and soft spoken by choice because he’s scared he’ll hurt someone. Now we have a reason why. I’m ok with that.

I’m just going to stop pinning my expectations on the order of things in the books. It’s only going to lead to disappointment.


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## Demetrios1453

Yeah, for anyone struggling with Episode 1, just keep watching, the next two are each better than the one before.

They were trying to squeeze too much into that first episode, which meant visual shortcuts which may seem questionable to those who have read the books. I still liked it for the most part, but it's definitely the weakest of the three. And from what those who have previewed later episodes have said elsewhere (Brandon Sanderson has been posting to various subreddits on the matter, for example), the episodes will continue to get better, with episode 6 apparently being exceptional.


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## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> The second episode is better than the first and the third better than the second.  I'm going to keep going, but I was definitely not happy with the first half of episode 1.



Oh I was t struggling with or bouncing off the episode at all except for Matt being whatever this Matt is, and then the Perrin moment.  

The visuals are spot on, the casting is excellent, I love the age up stuff, the town itself looks perfect and the costuming is lovely (especially Moraine), the trollocs and fade are perfect, the red Aes Sedai are perfectly hate-able, Rand reminds of of Anakin had been directed and written well in the Star Wars prequels, Tam fighting the trolloc was cheer-worthy.  

As was Perrin and his badass wife fighting them in the smithy.  

and then.  

Im not sure how even more well made episodes will make me not angry about that choice that they made.


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## Mallus

I’ve seen one episode and read none of the books.

The opening scenes are kinda terrible, though I do like how some of the ‘mountains’ were obviously ancient buildings.

I only really like Mat & Egwene, so far. Maybe Moraine & Lin, too. Mainly because they took a bath and are nonchalantly banging. Are we supposed to like more of them at this point?

But by the time the QAnon Shaman orcs attacked and the (mostly) zero-level villagers fought back, like the sucker that I am, I was hooked.


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## doctorbadwolf

Mallus said:


> But by the time the QAnon Shaman orcs



Oof.  

That’s brutal


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## payn

For y'all book reading folks, was the barmaid some type of darkling shapeshifter? Or was she just a regular person that worships the dark ones in secret and gets visions and stuff?


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## Mordhau

payn said:


> For y'all book reading folks, was the barmaid some type of darkling shapeshifter? Or was she just a regular person that worships the dark ones in secret and gets visions and stuff?



It's been a long time, but I don't think she was specifically in the book, although Matt and Rand met a darkfriend woman at some point along this part of the book, but it was all quite different.

I think they've basically condensed a whole lot of different stuff into one new scene, which they're going to have to do a lot.

It's not possible that this is going to be a faithful adaptation of the books, - not to the extent that Game of Thrones was.


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## hawkeyefan

payn said:


> For y'all book reading folks, was the barmaid some type of darkling shapeshifter? Or was she just a regular person that worships the dark ones in secret and gets visions and stuff?




She’s a darkfriend, which is like a cultist. They commune with the bad guys in dreams. She touches on this, and Thom uses the term “darkfriend”. You’ll learn more about them.

All in all, it’s a decent start. There are some flaws, for sure. But it’s solid.

When it comes to some of the changes with Mat and Perrin, I think they needed something to help distinguish them all. On the books that’s easier because you get their thoughts. But they don’t have that luxury here, so they added some stuff so that it’s not just three farmboys. 

In the case of Perrin, I think it’s to set up the whole “hammer or the axe” bit that he struggles with later on in the books. His wife had the hammer and he had the axe, so it makes sense. Not sure if it’s necessary…but they’re gonna have to condense some things. We’re not getting 14 seasons of this.


----------



## Zardnaar

I couldn't even remember Perrin I did the other ones. 

 Read the first 6-7 books in 2000-2001. Gave up with winters heart or dagger of something or other idk.

 One thing I liked about the dark friend was she wasn't cartoon evil. She thought she was out to save the world.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> For y'all book reading folks, was the barmaid some type of darkling shapeshifter? Or was she just a regular person that worships the dark ones in secret and gets visions and stuff?



Darkfriends are normal humans, just ones that have joined a secret society and worship evil in secret. Sometimes the Dark One gives them some extra juice as a reward, like Warlocks in D&D.


----------



## Maxperson

Mordhau said:


> It's been a long time, but I don't think she was specifically in the book, although Matt and Rand met a darkfriend woman at some point along this part of the book, but it was all quite different.
> 
> I think they've basically condensed a whole lot of different stuff into one new scene, which they're going to have to do a lot.
> 
> It's not possible that this is going to be a faithful adaptation of the books, - not to the extent that Game of Thrones was.



She was in the book, but not as a barmaid.  Matt and Rand get attacked by a female darkfriend in the barn where they were sleeping.  I THINK she was a fellow traveler.  She ends up dead, killed accidentally, falling on her own dagger or something if I remember correctly.


----------



## Mordhau

Maxperson said:


> She was in the book, but not as a barmaid.  Matt and Rand get attacked by a female darkfriend in the barn where they were sleeping.  I THINK she was a fellow traveler.  She ends up dead, killed accidentally, falling on her own dagger or something if I remember correctly.



That's basically what I said.  It's a completely different scene and it doesn't happen at Whitebridge.  Other stuff happens at Whitebridge.


----------



## payn

I did find the trollocks cant swim thing to be a bit eyeroll worthy.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> I did find the trollocks cant swim thing to be a bit eyeroll worthy.



That's from the book, and it makes sense in context.


----------



## payn

Parmandur said:


> That's from the book, and it makes sense in context.



I didnt read them. Whats the context?


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> I didnt read them. Whats the context?



They are large, heavy, and laden down with steel,: like, 8 feet tall and weigh a ton with no dexterity. Also, something about aversion to nature (they are vat grown, not born).


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> I didnt read them. Whats the context?




TEotW,Ch19 - Trollocs and Fades loathe deep water. Neither can swim. A Fade will not wade anything more than waist deep, especially if it is moving.


----------



## Parmandur

In short, it's not a production plot hole, but a feature of the creatures explained in the book.


----------



## Maxperson

payn said:


> I did find the trollocks cant swim thing to be a bit eyeroll worthy.



You'll need to talk to Jordan about that.  He wrote that part into the books.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> In short, it's not a production plot hole, but a feature of the creatures explained in the book.



And not just from the books.  Vampires can't cross running water.  It can destroy them.


----------



## payn

Parmandur said:


> In short, it's not a production plot hole, but a feature of the creatures explained in the book.



Please, explain away I have no intention of reading this.


----------



## Maxperson

payn said:


> Please, explain away I have no intention of reading this.



There's not much to explain.  They're like vampires.  They have the weakness, but it's not explained in detail.


----------



## payn

Maxperson said:


> There's not much to explain.  They're like vampires.  They have the weakness, but it's not explained in detail.



Ah, gotcha so they are not just wild beastmen, but magical beatsmen.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Ah, gotcha so they are not just wild beastmen, but magical beatsmen.



Yup, artificially engineered with black magic and mad science.  Ut in the books, they do spell out "these guys won't cross a river" so it's not a question left hanging.


----------



## Maxperson

payn said:


> Ah, gotcha so they are not just wild beastmen, but magical beatsmen.



Yep.  And very rarely one is born different. That's where the Fades(white faced guys with no eyes) come from.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Please, explain away I have no intention of reading this.



Just checked the book, and Lan spells out the plan for why they are racing to cross the river ahead of time because of the Shadowspawn's aversion to water and inability to swim. So the characters and readers understand the plan exactly.


----------



## Mercurius

I think approaching a series like Wheel of Time in the hopes that it will accurately model the books is just asking to be disappointed. I think the key for maximal enjoyment--if you're a reader of the books--is focusing on whether or not it is in the _spirit of _the books, if it does a good job depicting the feel of the world, and reducing the elements of the story in a way that keeps as much of what is essential as it possibly can, given the more limited nature of a film series (If you didn't read the books, then you can just enjoy the series for what it is, without expectations).

The LotR films were loved by almost everyone, at least all but perhaps the most staunch Tolkienistas. Why? Because Peter Jackson did a good job honoring the spirit of Tolkien, and the feeling of Middle-earth--especially as expressed over many decades by its most well known artists, John Howe and Alan Lee. We can bemoan the lack of Tom Bombadil or various other things, but the total result was about as good as anyone could possibly expect, given the nature of film (We won't go into the Hobbit films). But even then, the LotR films are probably better seen not as "accurate translations of the book to film," but rather "cinematic homages to the books."

Game of Thrones had an advantage over both LotR and Wheel of Time in that the author was (is) not only alive, but actively part of production _and _with experience in screen-writing. I know Brandon Sanderson is around, but he's not Robert Jordan, nor does he have George RR Martin's brilliance with dialogue and characters, which is part of the reason GoT was so good.


----------



## Maxperson

Mercurius said:


> I think approaching a series like Wheel of Time in the hopes that it will accurately model the books is just asking to be disappointed. I think the key for maximal enjoyment--if you're a reader of the books--is focusing on whether or not it is in the _spirit of _the books, if it does a good job depicting the feel of the world, and reducing the elements of the story in a way that keeps as much of what is essential as it possibly can, given the more limited nature of a film series (If you didn't read the books, then you can just enjoy the series for what it is, without expectations).



I agree that the spirit of the books should be what the show is shooting for.  I think that it messed up quite a bit of that in episode 1, but better recovered it in episodes 2 and 3.


Mercurius said:


> The LotR films were loved by almost everyone, at least all but perhaps the most staunch Tolkienistas. Why? Because Peter Jackson did a good job honoring the spirit of Tolkien, and the feeling of Middle-earth--especially as expressed over many decades by its most well known artists, John Howe and Alan Lee. We can bemoan the lack of Tom Bombadil or various other things, but the total result was about as good as anyone could possibly expect, given the nature of film (We won't go into the Hobbit films). But even then, the LotR films are probably better seen not as "accurate translations of the book to film," but rather "cinematic homages to the books."



Jackson got a lot of the feel right, but mess up on a good amount of it as well. 


Mercurius said:


> Game of Thrones had an advantage over both LotR and Wheel of Time in that the author was (is) not only alive, but actively part of production _and _with experience in screen-writing. I know Brandon Sanderson is around, but he's not Robert Jordan, nor does he have George RR Martin's brilliance with dialogue and characters, which is part of the reason GoT was so good.



Sanderson spent a lot of time sitting with Jordan and going over the books and what Jordan's vision was.  He has probably the best understanding of anyone alive.  And I disagree with you on his characters.  He MIGHT be just shy of George RR Martin with characters, but even if he is, he's still very, very good.  I don't know if you've read the Stormlight archive, but if you haven't, you should.


----------



## Parmandur

All around, I would say that Sanderson is a much better writer than Martin. Certainly more disciplined.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Parmandur said:


> All around, I would say that Sanderson is a much better writer than Martin. Certainly more disciplined.



LOL you can definitely say that. How many books has Martin published in the last decade, and how many has Sanderson?


----------



## Demetrios1453

hawkeyefan said:


> She’s a darkfriend, which is like a cultist. They commune with the bad guys in dreams. She touches on this, and Thom uses the term “darkfriend”. You’ll learn more about them.
> 
> All in all, it’s a decent start. There are some flaws, for sure. But it’s solid.
> 
> When it comes to some of the changes with Mat and Perrin, I think they needed something to help distinguish them all. On the books that’s easier because you get their thoughts. But they don’t have that luxury here, so they added some stuff so that it’s not just three farmboys.
> 
> In the case of Perrin, I think it’s to set up the whole “hammer or the axe” bit that he struggles with later on in the books. His wife had the hammer and he had the axe, so it makes sense. Not sure if it’s necessary…but they’re gonna have to condense some things. We’re not getting 14 seasons of this.



The showrunner says he has an 8-season run outlined. And the good thing is that the third 25% of the books were noticeably drawn out, and could use some substantial trimming, so cutting down things down for them shouldn't be an issue.

(And beyond hoping it's received well enough to get all 8 seasons, hopefully it does well enough to get 10 episodes instead of 8 a season. That would help the pacing and condensing issues substantially...)


----------



## Mercurius

Maxperson said:


> I agree that the spirit of the books should be what the show is shooting for.  I think that it messed up quite a bit of that in episode 1, but better recovered it in episodes 2 and 3.
> 
> Jackson got a lot of the feel right, but mess up on a good amount of it as well.
> 
> Sanderson spent a lot of time sitting with Jordan and going over the books and what Jordan's vision was.  He has probably the best understanding of anyone alive.  And I disagree with you on his characters.  He MIGHT be just shy of George RR Martin with characters, but even if he is, he's still very, very good.  I don't know if you've read the Stormlight archive, but if you haven't, you should.



I started Stormlight and got about halfway through the first book, mostly enjoyed it, but didn't love it and, for reasons I can't remember, never went back to it. That's been the case with several of his books; the only one I finished was _Elantris, _way back when it came out. My impression of Sanderson--both from reading Elantris and parts of several other books--is that he is an excellent world-builder, but his characters and dialogue are more workmanlike; solid, but nothing special. Where he shines--in addition to his worldbuilding--is a rather astonishing work ethic, that has seen him churn out an uncanny number of books in a relatively short period of time.


----------



## Mercurius

Demetrios1453 said:


> LOL you can definitely say that. How many books has Martin published in the last decade, and how many has Sanderson?



And throw in Rothfuss, aka "Baby Martin." Name of the Wind in 2007, Wise Man's Fear in 2011, and a few odds and ends since, but no major publications (novels) in 10 years.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> I started Stormlight and got about halfway through the first book, mostly enjoyed it, but didn't love it and, for reasons I can't remember, never went back to it. That's been the case with several of his books; the only one I finished was _Elantris, _way back when it came out. My impression of Sanderson--both from reading Elantris and parts of several other books--is that he is an excellent world-builder, but his characters and dialogue are more workmanlike; solid, but nothing special. Where he shines--in addition to his worldbuilding--is a rather astonishing work ethic, that has seen him churn out an uncanny number of books in a relatively short period of time.



His plots are rather amazing, once they unfold.


----------



## Mercurius

I couldn't resist - for gits and shiggles, and because I like charts. Here is the published output of Sanderson, Rothfuss, and Martin from 2005 (Sanderson's first book) to the present. I've also thrown in Steven Erikson as an example of a more "garden variety prolific author."


----------



## Mercurius

The novels are one thing, but look at Sanderson's novellas (which, again, includes all of his young adult novels).

I honestly have no idea how he does it. It is almost as if he has self-discipline and doesn't get caught down internet rabbit holes. He should bottle and market that power.


----------



## Dioltach

Add Scott Lynch to the list. I saw today that The Thorn of Emberlain has a scheduled release date of 31 December 2024...


----------



## Mort

Mercurius said:


> I couldn't resist - for gits and shiggles, and because I like charts. Here is the published output of Sanderson, Rothfuss, and Martin from 2005 (Sanderson's first book) to the present. I've also thrown in Steven Erikson as an example of a more "garden variety prolific author."
> 
> View attachment 147045




To say that Sanderson produces his books quickly is an understatement.

He posted his entire writing process, from beginning to end (posting each chapter as he wrote it.) on Warbreaker, as it was being written. It was a complete look inside - and his speed was something to see.


----------



## Mordhau

Parmandur said:


> Just checked the book, and Lan spells out the plan for why they are racing to cross the river ahead of time because of the Shadowspawn's aversion to water and inability to swim. So the characters and readers understand the plan exactly.



It was covered in the show as well.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Mercurius said:


> The novels are one thing, but look at Sanderson's novellas (which, again, includes all of his young adult novels).
> 
> I honestly have no idea how he does it. It is almost as if he has self-discipline and doesn't get caught down internet rabbit holes. He should bottle and market that power.



He's gone a little into the internet rabbit hole, having posted on r/wot and a few other subreddits over the last few days, with his viewpoints of the episodes so far, with some insight on the production process and his discussions with Judkins on changes from the books. Basically, he's liked how it's turned out so far, says it just keeps getting better with Episode 6 being 10/10 in his eyes. He does have a few reservations, and went in some detail on how he and Judkins disagreed with the whole Perrin's wife plot (he thought that Perrin hurting someone accidentally was OK, but not killing, and especially not a wife created just for the purpose of doing so; he suggested Master Luhhan, Perrin's blacksmithing master, instead).


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Mercurius said:


> And throw in Rothfuss, aka "Baby Martin." Name of the Wind in 2007, Wise Man's Fear in 2011, and a few odds and ends since, but no major publications (novels) in 10 years.



As a King fan that grew up reading The Dark Tower and it’s related works…I’m not even bothered by the wait for the next Kingkiller book tbh.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

We finished Ep 3 today. It definitely improved from the first episode, and we can see the characters and plot developing.

Even though my wife and I both finished the entire series, she doesn't remember most of the plot points or back story from the first book, so I'm answering a lot of "what is that?" and "why?" questions that could be better explained -- but I do feel that by and large the series is doing a good job with "show don't tell". There's way to much for everything to be explained.


----------



## Rabulias

Dioltach said:


> Add Scott Lynch to the list. I saw today that The Thorn of Emberlain has a scheduled release date of 31 December 2024...



An appropriate addition to the list here, but I think that _The Thorn of Emberlain_ is _currently _scheduled for April 2022. Not that it can't change (and I would not be surprised if it did), but I think this date is a better bet than ever before.


----------



## Mallus

So after finishing the third episode and conferring with an old friend who has read all the books, the verdict is: I like it. The show, so far, delivers the pleasures of doorstop epic fantasy. It doesn’t threaten to revolutionize the genre like the best parts of Game of Thrones. Or fail to, like the rest of Game of Thones.

I think the biggest complaint I have is Amazon didn’t throw a container ship full of money at adapting The Riftwar, The Belgariad, or The Saga of the Pliocene Exile, ie series from my youth that I like more.


----------



## payn

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> We finished Ep 3 today. It definitely improved from the first episode, and we can see the characters and plot developing.
> 
> Even though my wife and I both finished the entire series, she doesn't remember most of the plot points or back story from the first book, so I'm answering a lot of "what is that?" and "why?" questions that could be better explained -- but I do feel that by and large the series is doing a good job with "show don't tell". There's way to much for everything to be explained.



Im not so sure. Outside of "the dragon returns is good or bad depending who finds it first" I still dont know much about whats going on, the differences between people, how magic works, or any other things that make this particular setting unique. The simple main storyline has me online for now, but I dont find myself wondering too much about anything else.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Im not so sure. Outside of "the dragon returns is good or bad depending who finds it first" I still dont know much about whats going on, the differences between people, how magic works, or any other things that make this particular setting unique. The simple main storyline has me online for now, but I dont find myself wondering too much about anything else.



To be fair, you wouldn't know almost any of that at this point in the books, either. Heck, "how magic works" takes till book 3 to really get fully operational for the reader. If one thing can be said about the Wheel of Time, is that it is a slow burn.


----------



## payn

Parmandur said:


> To be fair, you wouldn't know almost any of that at this point in the books, either. Heck, "how magic works" takes till book 3 to really get fully operational for the reader. If one thing can be said about the Wheel of Time, is that it is a slow burn.



Yeap, this reafirms my choice of waiting for the TV series and passing on the books


----------



## Demetrios1453

payn said:


> Im not so sure. Outside of "the dragon returns is good or bad depending who finds it first" I still dont know much about whats going on, the differences between people, how magic works, or any other things that make this particular setting unique. The simple main storyline has me online for now, but I dont find myself wondering too much about anything else.



The magic part is probably going to get somewhat info-dumped during the next episode, given the person we saw in the cage at the very end of the episode. What he can do, why he is caged, and what the Aes Sedai can do in comparison are probably subjects that will discussed, probably using Nynaeve as the audience surrogate.

As for all the different places in the world, we'll start visiting them over time, some this season, and a _lot_ next season, assuming they follow the books relatively closely. We'll see some areas that are a bit different than your typical standard fantasy kingdoms in the next few episodes, and unique cultures like the Aiel and Tinkers have already been mentioned. We'll no doubt get a lot more on the Tinkers next episode as Egwene and Perrin have just met them. We've actually only been in one nation pretty much this entire time (although Egwene and Perrin are now in the wastelands outside any nation's borders at this point), the Kingdom of Andor, even if the Two Rivers have forgotten they are technically within its borders...


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> The magic part is probably going to get somewhat info-dumped during the next episode, given the person we saw in the cage at the very end of the episode. What he can do, why he is caged, and what the Aes Sedai can do in comparison are probably subjects that will discussed, probably using Nynaeve as the audience surrogate.



They have said that they are going to cover a bunch of the Great Hunt this season and touch on the Dragon Reborn, so yeah, the introduction to Aes Sedai stuff has probably been expedited.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Parmandur said:


> They have said that they are going to cover a bunch of the Great Hunt this season and touch on the Dragon Reborn, so yeah, the introduction to Aes Sedai stuff has probably been expedited.



Some of _The Great Hunt._ Given that the titles for episodes 7 and 8 have been leaked "The Darkness Along the Ways" and "The Eye of the World", which indicate that over-all plot-wise we're only getting to the end of the first book this season, it's likely that we're only going to see fairly small portions of the second book moved forward probably the Aes Sedai stuff at the start of the book in Fal Dara will be moved to Tar Valon and appear in episode 6.


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> Some of _The Great Hunt._ Given that the titles for episodes 7 and 8 have been leaked "The Darkness Along the Ways" and "The Eye of the World", which indicate that over-all plot-wise we're only getting to the end of the first book this season, it's likely that we're only going to see fairly small portions of the second book moved forward probably the Aes Sedai stuff at the start of the book in Fal Dara will be moved to Tar Valon and appear in episode 6.



Yeah, that's about what I figure, too. And it makes sense for what they are going for.


----------



## Mercurius

doctorbadwolf said:


> As a King fan that grew up reading The Dark Tower and it’s related works…I’m not even bothered by the wait for the next Kingkiller book tbh.



I hear you, although I think a few things make the situations rather different: For one, the longest gap between DT books was six years, unless you count the (surprise) eighth book. Furthermore, books 5-7 came out in a two-year span, sort of a gift for fans, I suppose. Also, afaik (and to be honest, I don't know a lot about the progression of the series) I don't think King made promises. Finally, he wrote a lot of other stuff in-between.

Rothfuss' situation, I think, is a combination of catching the celebrity bug, procrastination, perfectionism, and mental health issues. I feel for the guy, but it really is quite odd that we're now _ten years _in. That's a lot of time to finish a book that he presumably had at least a very rough draft for.

I'm not bothered, though - I never finished the first book. I tried a couple times, but found it a mix of really good and kind of annoying, and just didn't get more than about 150 pages in. Maybe I'll give it another shot at some point, but will probably wait until the third book comes out.


----------



## Mordhau

Writing these long series is just a bad idea for a writer.  People grow and change and they become interested in different things.   

It became obvious to me, when reading Fire and Blood, that Martin for instance could probably do a lot more interesting things, and basically do what he's trying to do with a lot of his Westeros writing a lot better, if he was unshackled from writing in the point of view fantasy style that A Song of Ice and Fire was written in.  (If he wasn't compelled to keep trudging on with the original series, he could experiment more with the unreliable narrators he was playing with in Fire and Blood).


----------



## TheSword

Mordhau said:


> Writing these long series is just a bad idea for a writer.  People grow and change and they become interested in different things.




I think it depends how clear the writers vision for the series is. I think RJ knew where he was going, he just meandered a little between books 8-9 before picking the pace up. The vision was so strong even a different writer could pick up he left off, almost seamlessly.

I suspect it’s much easier to write fast when you feel that way.


----------



## Delazar

I enjoyed the first three episodes. Somehow the costumes look a bit cosplay-like to me, but it is a nice show.

I read the first four books some ten years ago, so maybe I’m misremembering, but isn’t the Dragon Reborn supposed to be a man? I get the sense that Moraine was imply that Nynaeve could also be the Dragon… did I misunderstand this?


----------



## payn

Delazar said:


> I enjoyed the first three episodes. Somehow the costumes look a bit cosplay-like to me, but it is a nice show.
> 
> I read the first four books some ten years ago, so maybe I’m misremembering, but isn’t the Dragon Reborn supposed to be a man? I get the sense that Moraine was imply that Nynaeve could also be the Dragon… did I misunderstand this?



Didnt read the books. In the series, so far, it seems like Moraine doesnt know which one it could be. Though, she seems to want to give advice to Nynaeve on using magic in any case. The males have been indifferent to outright hostile at times (dont blame them) so it makes sense.


----------



## Parmandur

Delazar said:


> I enjoyed the first three episodes. Somehow the costumes look a bit cosplay-like to me, but it is a nice show.
> 
> I read the first four books some ten years ago, so maybe I’m misremembering, but isn’t the Dragon Reborn supposed to be a man? I get the sense that Moraine was imply that Nynaeve could also be the Dragon… did I misunderstand this?



They have introduced an element of mystery here that is absent in the book: most readers would have formed a strong suspicion about the Dragon Reborn by this point in the book, while simultaneously Moraine had not let on that much about her mission.


----------



## Zaukrie

Mercurius said:


> I think approaching a series like Wheel of Time in the hopes that it will accurately model the books is just asking to be disappointed. I think the key for maximal enjoyment--if you're a reader of the books--is focusing on whether or not it is in the _spirit of _the books, if it does a good job depicting the feel of the world, and reducing the elements of the story in a way that keeps as much of what is essential as it possibly can, given the more limited nature of a film series (If you didn't read the books, then you can just enjoy the series for what it is, without expectations).
> 
> The LotR films were loved by almost everyone, at least all but perhaps the most staunch Tolkienistas. Why? Because Peter Jackson did a good job honoring the spirit of Tolkien, and the feeling of Middle-earth--especially as expressed over many decades by its most well known artists, John Howe and Alan Lee. We can bemoan the lack of Tom Bombadil or various other things, but the total result was about as good as anyone could possibly expect, given the nature of film (We won't go into the Hobbit films). But even then, the LotR films are probably better seen not as "accurate translations of the book to film," but rather "cinematic homages to the books."
> 
> Game of Thrones had an advantage over both LotR and Wheel of Time in that the author was (is) not only alive, but actively part of production _and _with experience in screen-writing. I know Brandon Sanderson is around, but he's not Robert Jordan, nor does he have George RR Martin's brilliance with dialogue and characters, which is part of the reason GoT was so good.



Right. Plus, I don't want the same story. We already have the books.

This is a retelling, like any myth, and parts of the story are always different depending on who is telling it, and when. 

Me? I'm just going to enjoy it (like Foundation) for what it is. Not in comparing it and judging what it isn't. 

If possible, I recommend not thinking about how it is different than the books while watching it. That almost ruined the new Dune movie for me, until I remembered it was a different telling of the same story, and it should be different.


----------



## payn

Zaukrie said:


> Right. Plus, I don't want the same story. We already have the books.
> 
> This is a retelling, like any myth, and parts of the story are always different depending on who is telling it, and when.
> 
> Me? I'm just going to enjoy it (like Foundation) for what it is. Not in comparing it and judging what it isn't.
> 
> If possible, I recommend not thinking about how it is different than the books while watching it. That almost ruined the new Dune movie for me, until I remembered it was a different telling of the same story, and it should be different.



I dont mind if folks making minor changes to enhance the adaption process. I dont even mind if they increase or reduce elements to make it a better story. I just want those decisions to be good ones. Saying that an adaption should be different doesn't give the creators an automatic C. You can still critique their changes for better or worse.


----------



## Maxperson

Delazar said:


> I enjoyed the first three episodes. Somehow the costumes look a bit cosplay-like to me, but it is a nice show.
> 
> I read the first four books some ten years ago, so maybe I’m misremembering, but isn’t the Dragon Reborn supposed to be a man? I get the sense that Moraine was imply that Nynaeve could also be the Dragon… did I misunderstand this?



In the books he was absolutely prophesized to be male.  I don't mind if in the show she doesn't know if the Dragon will be male or female, so long as it ultimately ends up being Rand.  If any of the others ends up being the Dragon, I'm done with the show.


----------



## TheSword

Maxperson said:


> In the books he was absolutely prophesized to be male.  I don't mind if in the show she doesn't know if the Dragon will be male or female, so long as it ultimately ends up being Rand.  If any of the others ends up being the Dragon, I'm done with the show.



I think you’ll be ok


----------



## Zaukrie

payn said:


> I dont mind if folks making minor changes to enhance the adaption process. I dont even mind if they increase or reduce elements to make it a better story. I just want those decisions to be good ones. Saying that an adaption should be different doesn't give the creators an automatic C. You can still critique their changes for better or worse.



I never said otherwise. I said I think everyone will be happier if they don't judge it just on being different.


----------



## Zaukrie

Maxperson said:


> In the books he was absolutely prophesized to be male.  I don't mind if in the show she doesn't know if the Dragon will be male or female, so long as it ultimately ends up being Rand.  If any of the others ends up being the Dragon, I'm done with the show.



I'd find it much more interesting not to be Rand. But we all can tell it will be. I'm watching with 2 who have not read they book, and they knew from the first moment.


----------



## Mercurius

Zaukrie said:


> Right. Plus, I don't want the same story. We already have the books.
> 
> This is a retelling, like any myth, and parts of the story are always different depending on who is telling it, and when.
> 
> Me? I'm just going to enjoy it (like Foundation) for what it is. Not in comparing it and judging what it isn't.
> 
> If possible, I recommend not thinking about how it is different than the books while watching it. That almost ruined the new Dune movie for me, until I remembered it was a different telling of the same story, and it should be different.



I agree, although with the caveat that I think it should honor the spirit of the original author, especially in the case of Tolkien, which has a special spot in fantasy history.

(This is why I'm a bit leery of the upcoming Amazon series, which I fear might be "sexy Middle-earth"...evidently the cast were asked if they were OK with being nude on film. Nothing wrong with nudity, but this would really clash with Tolkien's vision).


----------



## payn

Mercurius said:


> I agree, although with the caveat that I think it should honor the spirit of the original author, especially in the case of Tolkien, which has a special spot in fantasy history.
> 
> (This is why I'm a bit leery of the upcoming Amazon series, which I fear might be "sexy Middle-earth"...evidently the cast were asked if they were OK with being nude on film. Nothing wrong with nudity, but this would really clash with Tolkien's vision).



How so?


----------



## Demetrios1453

Zaukrie said:


> I'd find it much more interesting not to be Rand. But we all can tell it will be. I'm watching with 2 who have not read they book, and they knew from the first moment.



Rafe has already confirmed it anyway ("Book readers will know who the Dragon Reborn is."), so that bit was just added to give a bit more extra mystery, and to show just how vague prophesies can be (something that's explored thoroughly in the books, just not this particular situation). It's almost certainly not have any implications down the road after the Dragon Reborn is revealed, but that's not stopping a certain subset of the book fans from frothing at the mouth over it...


----------



## Mercurius

payn said:


> How so?



Because Tolkien didn't really touch upon sexuality. LotR--and his stories in general--were more mythic, and less about gritty realism.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> Because Tolkien didn't really touch upon sexuality. LotR--and his stories in general--were more mythic, and less about gritty realism.



The tale ofTúrin Turambar disagrees with both dichotomies, and strongly: mythic _and_ gritty realism, also touching on sexuality.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> The tale ofTúrin Turambar disagrees with both dichotomies, and strongly: mythic _and_ gritty realism, also touching on sexuality.



Sort of. And of course that's one tale. I'm not saying that sexuality is totally absent, or that there aren't elements of gritty realism in parts of his overall work, just that those are de-emphasized, and including them more than in an implied and/or secondary way would seem gratuitous.

And the larger point: What is the spirit of Tolkien? It isn't Game of Thrones in Middle-earth. I doubt the new series will be _that, _but I wouldn't put it past them to try to bring in the GoT crowd by including such elements.


----------



## Gadget

Maxperson said:


> Sanderson spent a lot of time sitting with Jordan and going over the books and what Jordan's vision was.  He has probably the best understanding of anyone alive.  And I disagree with you on his characters.  He MIGHT be just shy of George RR Martin with characters, but even if he is, he's still very, very good.  I don't know if you've read the Stormlight archive, but if you haven't, you should.




Sanderson was not selected to finish WOT until after RJ died, when RJ's widow selected him in part due to his tribute/eulogy to RJ, so I don't know where this 'sitting with Jordan and going over the books' stuff comes from.  Sanderson _may_ have met RJ (I don't really know), but if he did it was more in the setting of at a fan convention or some such. What Sanderson did have is access to RJ's notes, assistants, and editors (including RJ's wife). And I would second that Sanderson is not as good at writing characters or dialog as either RJ or Martin. He can move along an action scene like no one else though.


----------



## Mordhau

TheSword said:


> I think it depends how clear the writers vision for the series is. I think RJ knew where he was going, he just meandered a little between books 8-9 before picking the pace up. The vision was so strong even a different writer could pick up he left off, almost seamlessly.
> 
> I suspect it’s much easier to write fast when you feel that way.



He may have kept writing, and it may have actually gotten finished, but it suffered from a lot of the same problems Martin's attempt has.  The narrative got to big and he lost control of it.

There's a good reason there's so many people in these threads saying they read up to a certain point and no further.


----------



## Parmandur

Mordhau said:


> He may have kept writing, and it may have actually gotten finished, but it suffered from a lot of the same problems Martin's attempt has.  The narrative got to big and he lost control of it.
> 
> There's a good reason there's so many people in these threads saying they read up to a certain point and no further.



Big difference is that the ending is great. Like, really great. Everything pays off. The anti-GoT.


----------



## Mort

Parmandur said:


> Big difference is that the ending is great. Like, really great. Everything pays off. The anti-GoT.




To be fair, Martin didn't finish his work. Weis and Benioff did for the TV series (working from an outline? not 100% sure).

Jordan expressed a huge fear of his was "pulling a Lost," ie not sticking the landing/finale of the series, so it's sad that's exactly what happened (well IMO and many other people's).

Edit: Ack, Martin not Jordan! Martin expressed great fear of sticking the landing!


----------



## Parmandur

Mort said:


> To be fair, Martin didn't finish his work. Weis and Benioff did for the TV series (working from an outline? not 100% sure).
> 
> Jordan expressed a huge fear of his was "pulling a Lost," ie not sticking the landing/finale of the series, so it's sad that's exactly what happened (well IMO and many other people's).



I mean, Jordan did nail the landing, with a bit of help: the amazing climax was his work, fire sure. 

The shows ending is Martin's ending, particularly in the parts that disappointed people.


----------



## Maxperson

Gadget said:


> Sanderson was not selected to finish WOT until after RJ died, when RJ's widow selected him in part due to his tribute/eulogy to RJ, so I don't know where this 'sitting with Jordan and going over the books' stuff comes from.  Sanderson _may_ have met RJ (I don't really know), but if he did it was more in the setting of at a fan convention or some such. What Sanderson did have is access to RJ's notes, assistants, and editors (including RJ's wife). And I would second that Sanderson is not as good at writing characters or dialog as either RJ or Martin. He can move along an action scene like no one else though.



I clearly misremembered what happened.  Whoops!  Thanks for the correction. 

I disagree about characters, though.  Sanderson does characters better than Jordan did, while perhaps not quite as well as Martin.  Sanderson is also getting better.  His characters in the Stormlight Archives have much more depth and are much more complete than the characters in his Mistborn novels.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Big difference is that the ending is great. Like, really great. Everything pays off. The anti-GoT.



Well, the GoT books may have a fantastic ending as well.  We're just never going to see it.


----------



## Maxperson

Mort said:


> To be fair, Martin didn't finish his work. Weis and Benioff did for the TV series (working from an outline? not 100% sure).
> 
> Jordan expressed a huge fear of his was "pulling a Lost," ie not sticking the landing/finale of the series, so it's sad that's exactly what happened (well IMO and many other people's).



Yeah.  I didn't like how the last book ended.  The second breaking was barely more than a few hills being leveled or raised, and I didn't care for what Rand did at the end.  It seemed like a cop-out.


----------



## Mort

Parmandur said:


> I mean, Jordan did nail the landing, with a bit of help: the amazing climax was his work, fire sure.
> 
> The shows ending is Martin's ending, particularly in the parts that disappointed people.




Meant Martin not Jordan, Ack!


----------



## Mort

Parmandur said:


> I mean, Jordan did nail the landing, with a bit of help: the amazing climax was his work, fire sure.
> 
> The shows ending is Martin's ending, particularly in the parts that disappointed people.



Sort of, the shows ending was incredibly rushed - and I suspect, even then, not all of it was Martins (just the high points).

How you tell (or show) it is as or even more important than what you say (or show).


----------



## Parmandur

Mort said:


> Sort of, the shows ending was incredibly rushed - and I suspect, even then, not all of it was Martins (just the high points).
> 
> How you tell (or show) it is as or even more important than what you say (or show).



Yeah, and there was the issue that characters and plot lines from the books were streamlined, which had downstream effects.

Still, the major highlights that are pretty clear in hindsight that the books are building towards seem to be what most irritated fans.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  I didn't like how the last book ended.  The second breaking was barely more than a few hills being leveled or raised, and I didn't care for what Rand did at the end.  It seemed like a cop-out.



The very end with Rand is, at the very least, odd: it seems to set him up fir the 4th age as the opposite of what Ismael was doing through 3rd age.

His actual final confrontation, with the metaphysical revelations? Magnificent. As good as the elaborate war game scenario Jordan spent two million words setting up.


----------



## Mort

Parmandur said:


> Yeah, and there was the issue that characters and plot lines from the books were streamlined, which had downstream effects.
> 
> Still, the major highlights that are pretty clear in hindsight that the books are building towards seem to be what most irritated fans.




Well, the benefit to Wheel of Time is that it's completed in addition to Sanderson being a producer.

Though, apparently he (Sanderson) wasn't always listened to. He objected to and tried to change the Perrin's wife angle in the first episode - but was ignored.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I clearly misremembered what happened.  Whoops!  Thanks for the correction.
> 
> I disagree about characters, though.  Sanderson does characters better than Jordan did, while perhaps not quite as well as Martin.  Sanderson is also getting better.  His characters in the Stormlight Archives have much more depth and are much more complete than the characters in his Mistborn novels.



Sanderson is more technically capable at writing character and dialog, but Jordan had a deeper knowledge of the dark corners of the human psyche. It was pretty apparent when Sanderson wrote a chapter with a Mat POV and it wasn't Jordan.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> The very end with Rand is, at the very least, odd: it seems to set him up fir the 4th age as the opposite of what Ismael was doing through 3rd age.
> 
> His actual final confrontation, with the metaphysical revelations? Magnificent. As good as the elaborate war game scenario Jordan spent two million words setting up.



Yeah.  Those revelations were good, but the second breaking was more of a minor warping, and again........what Rand did...


----------



## Zaukrie

are we spoiling things not in the show yet? I might have to leave the thread.....


----------



## Maxperson

Zaukrie said:


> are we spoiling things not in the show yet? I might have to leave the thread.....



Too vague to be spoiling.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Mort said:


> Well, the benefit to Wheel of Time is that it's completed in addition to Sanderson being a producer.
> 
> Though, apparently he (Sanderson) wasn't always listened to. He objected to and tried to change the Perrin's wife angle in the first episode - but was ignored.



I mean, Rafe isn't going slavishly bind himself to everything Sanderson suggests; they're coming at it as two different different individuals after all.

But, at least that's been the only real major point of contention (obviously there are minor differences of opinion, but nothing on the scale of this). Sanderson has seen all the scripts up to an indeterminate point in season 2, and says they're otherwise all good by him. Jordan's widow (and editor) has given her approval as well...


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Parmandur said:


> The very end with Rand is, at the very least, odd: it seems to set him up fir the 4th age as the opposite of what Ismael was doing through 3rd age.
> 
> His actual final confrontation, with the metaphysical revelations? Magnificent. As good as the elaborate war game scenario Jordan spent two million words setting up.



Not to mention Egwene’s final act, and her conversation with Rand. She saves the world as much as he does, paying off the entire series long dance of two mirroring foils that defines both characters.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Demetrios1453 said:


> I mean, Rafe isn't going slavishly bind himself to everything Sanderson suggests; they're coming at it as two different different individuals after all.
> 
> But, at least that's been the only real major point of contention (obviously there are minor differences of opinion, but nothing on the scale of this). Sanderson has seen all the scripts up to an indeterminate point in season 2, and says they're otherwise all good by him. Jordan's widow (and editor) has given her approval as well...



I still can’t believe they did that. It’s like a wild moment of fevered CW 3rd season finale level need to angst up a character very quickly.


----------



## Parmandur

doctorbadwolf said:


> I still can’t believe they did that. It’s like a wild moment of fevered CW 3rd season finale level need to angst up a character very quickly.



It's going to take a lot of work to make up for that.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Parmandur said:


> It's going to take a lot of work to make up for that.



Yeah.  

Also I don’t recall any hint of Matt’s parents being drunks?


----------



## TheSword

Mordhau said:


> He may have kept writing, and it may have actually gotten finished, but it suffered from a lot of the same problems Martin's attempt has.  The narrative got to big and he lost control of it.
> 
> There's a good reason there's so many people in these threads saying they read up to a certain point and no further.



That is their prerogative. There are lots of people who did read on.

Yes the work got big, Jordan got lost in book 8 picking apart the threads of his story. He had to transition from the climax of each book being the slaying or yet another forsaken and I don’t think he knew how to do that in book 8.

Luckily Jordan took back control of his work at the end of book 9 and book 10 where all of sudden everything leaps into action with some pretty massive events. World shaking stuff that reverberates through the series. Anybody who stopped because of books 7 and 8 really missed out.


----------



## Mercurius

^ That would be me. I started the series around the time the Great Hunt came out, and bought and devoured each book as they came out. And then Path of Daggers hit (book 8). I think the 50 page prologue that was a horse ride killed it for me. It was peak braid-tugging and brocade-describing. I could never find my way back in.


----------



## Parmandur

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Also I don’t recall any hint of Matt’s parents being drunks?



Mat's dad was a lot like him, but mature and settled down. They done him dirty.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> ^ That would be me. I started the series around the time the Great Hunt came out, and bought and devoured each book as they came out. And then Path of Daggers hit (book 8). I think the 50 page prologue that was a horse ride killed it for me. It was peak braid-tugging and brocade-describing. I could never find my way back in.



Books 6-8 are slower, but they lay a lot of groundwork for the end that pays off in spades.


----------



## payn

Mercurius said:


> Sort of. And of course that's one tale. I'm not saying that sexuality is totally absent, or that there aren't elements of gritty realism in parts of his overall work, just that those are de-emphasized, and including them more than in an implied and/or secondary way would seem gratuitous.
> 
> And the larger point: What is the spirit of Tolkien? It isn't Game of Thrones in Middle-earth. I doubt the new series will be _that, _but I wouldn't put it past them to try to bring in the GoT crowd by including such elements.



The GoT crowd was _everybody _so its an attractive crowd to target. Making a series isnt as easy as publishing a book, you cant focus on diehard cult fans and need to expand the material.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> The GoT crowd was _everybody _so its an attractive crowd to target. Making a series isnt as easy as publishing a book, you cant focus on diehard cult fans and need to expand the material.



The Wheel of Time books were a "four quadrant" hit, actually, so done well there is a lot of potential. Whether this show lives up to that I'd an open question.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Parmandur said:


> Mat's dad was a lot like him, but mature and settled down. They done him dirty.



Yeah it’s another example of CWing characters in order to make sure every main character has juicy drama to deal with right off the bat. The Perrin decision is more egregious, but the Matt thing is still needless and cheap.


----------



## Parmandur

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah it’s another example of CWing characters in order to make sure every main character has juicy drama to deal with right off the bat. The Perrin decision is more egregious, but the Matt thing is still needless and cheap.



Thing is, treating Abele like this has knock-on effects in later season, too, since he is a significant character in Two Rivers plotlines.


----------



## payn

Parmandur said:


> The Wheel of Time books were a "four quadrant" hit, actually, so done well there is a lot of potential. Whether this show lives up to that I'd an open question.



Books aint the same as film, they dont translate 1 for 1. GoT was able to transcend its genre, but I dont see WoT doing that. Guess we will see.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Parmandur said:


> Thing is, treating Abele like this has knock-on effects in later season, too, since he is a significant character in Two Rivers plotlines.



Yeah absolutely. 

 And Perrin is gonna come back and his dead wife is either going to matter (even if just being a thing he has to deal with emotionally), or be revealed as even more cheap than it seems now.


----------



## payn

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah it’s another example of CWing characters in order to make sure every main character has juicy drama to deal with right off the bat. The Perrin decision is more egregious, but the Matt thing is still needless and cheap.



It did feel like they were piling crap on the characters to make them more sympathetic.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Books aint the same as film, they dont translate 1 for 1. GoT was able to transcend its genre, but I dont see WoT doing that. Guess we will see.



I mean, Game of Thrones was big for cable, but let's not exaggerate it's audience, either.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> It did feel like they were piling crap on the characters to make them more sympathetic.



The book managed it with more subtlty: but then, POV writing offers more opportunities there.


----------



## TheSword

If you think about it. In the original books there was tension and angst in the books towards the Coplars and the Congins. They’ve just moved that over to main Matt’s family it seems.

I don’t really have a problem with it. They’ve clearly gone down the thief route with Matt and having a rough upbringing gives some justification for that.


----------



## payn

Parmandur said:


> I mean, Game of Thrones was big for cable, but let's not exaggerate it's audience, either.



Im not.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> If you think about it. In the original books there was tension and angst in the books towards the Coplars and the Congins. They’ve just moved that over to main Matt’s family it seems.
> 
> I don’t really have a problem with it. They’ve clearly gone down the thief route with Matt and having a rough upbringing gives some justification for that.



I think the showrunners, like Sanderson, may have had difficulty getting in Mat's head, unlike Jordan who fit right in.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Im not.



Exactly my point: now compare it to NCIS or Big Bang Theory.

I'm glad thst we live in an age where a significant niche gets serviced with content, much better than TV used to be.

As a point of comparison, there are something like 120 million TV watching households in the U.S. Game of Thrones was a definite success that crossed ino the mainstream, but it was not "everybody" by any means.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Exactly my point: now compare it to NCIS or Big Bang Theory.
> 
> I'm glad thst we live in an age where a significant niche gets serviced with content, much better than TV used to be.



NCIS averages 7-8 million.  GoT season 7 averaged 10 million.  Big Bang Theory, though, had like 17 million.  It averaged both of those other shows combined.


----------



## payn

NCIS is a police procedural and Big Bang is a sit com two of the most common and popular genres. They are _not _fantasy series. So, yeah, GoT was everybody as far as fantasy is concerned.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> NCIS is a police procedural and Big Bang is a sit com two of the most common and popular genres. They are _not _fantasy series. So, yeah, GoT was everybody as far as fantasy is concerned.



So, not everybody.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> So, not everybody.



The Superbowl gets 96 million, so none of those shows gets anywhere near everyone.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> The Superbowl gets 96 million, so none of those shows gets anywhere near everyone.



Exactly my point. 

Beyond that, even among people who like sci-fi and fantasy, I know a good number who never even gave GoT a shot due to a lack of interest or distaste, so the ceiling is higher for what a fantasy property can accomplish, frankly.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Exactly my point.
> 
> Beyond that, even among people who like sci-fi and fantasy, I know a good number who never even gave GoT a shot due to a lack of interest or distaste, so the ceiling is higher for what a fantasy property can accomplish, frankly.



Flip side of that, though, is that my wife and her girlfriends who don't get a rat's behind about fantasy and gaming all watched Game of Thrones.  It appealed to a wider audience, probably because there was less fantasy than Wheel of Time has, so is more relatable to those who are not into fantasy.


----------



## payn

Maxperson said:


> Flip side of that, though, is that my wife and her girlfriends who don't get a rat's behind about fantasy and gaming all watched Game of Thrones.  It appealed to a wider audience, probably because there was less fantasy than Wheel of Time has, so is more relatable to those who are not into fantasy.



Right, GoT was able to transcend genre. WoT isn't likely to do that.


----------



## Mercurius

payn said:


> The GoT crowd was _everybody _so its an attractive crowd to target. Making a series isnt as easy as publishing a book, you cant focus on diehard cult fans and need to expand the material.



Yeah, but the LotR was also "everybody," and they stuck true to the spirit of Tolkien (for the most part) and didn't add unecessary sexiness.

You don't need to sexy up Middle-earth to make it appealing to a large number of folks. In fact, GoT is an example of narrowing the market to a certain age, as it was rated R (and then some).

LotR added--or emphasized--romantic elements that were mostly just implied in the books, but did so tastefully and non-gratuitously (that is, not for cheap thrills). Sexifying Middle-earth, say with a Bree-town brothel or Rivendell orgy or Hobbiton key-party, would just be a cheap thrill that would intrude upon the mythic atmosphere that is so intrinsic to Tolkien's world.

I have nothing against sexuality - in its place. Otherwise it is like adding sugar to everything, which spikes your endorphins but is a cheap tactic.


----------



## Mercurius

Maxperson said:


> Flip side of that, though, is that my wife and her girlfriends who don't get a rat's behind about fantasy and gaming all watched Game of Thrones.  It appealed to a wider audience, probably because there was less fantasy than Wheel of Time has, so is more relatable to those who are not into fantasy.



Yes, true, although WoT can make up some of the difference with a younger demographic. I don't expect it to be a GoT level phenomena, but I don't think you have to copy all the GoT elements to equal that level.


----------



## Maxperson

Mercurius said:


> Yeah, but the LotR was also "everybody," and they stuck true to the spirit of Tolkien (for the most part) and didn't add unecessary sexiness.



Lord of the Rings was also a movie, not a T.V. show.  That makes a difference to viewership and quality.  Fellowship of the Ring sold 54 million tickets in the U.S. and Canada and included people who saw the movie multiple times, of which there were a lot.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> Lord of the Rings was also a movie, not a T.V. show.  That makes a difference to viewership and quality.  Fellowship of the Ring sold 54 million tickets in the U.S. and Canada and included people who saw the movie multiple times, of which there were a lot.



Even accounting for multiple viewings, LotR had a bigger pop culture impact than GoT, particularly in longevity.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Right, GoT was able to transcend genre. WoT isn't likely to do that.



Well, time will tell: I don't expect it to, the way it has been handled.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Even accounting for multiple viewings, LotR had a bigger pop culture impact than GoT, particularly in longevity.



Yeah, but it also had the advantage of being THE known fantasy series for a great many people who didn't do fantasy.  Many more people had heard of it before the movies came out.


----------



## payn

Parmandur said:


> Well, time will tell: I don't expect it to, the way it has been handled.



Now that is interesting. Is there a way it could be handled that could get it to GoT level and/or beyond? I haven't read the material, but what I have heard from people is that its unlikely. Im curious what elements are missed in the series?


----------



## Mercurius

Maxperson said:


> Lord of the Rings was also a movie, not a T.V. show.  That makes a difference to viewership and quality.  Fellowship of the Ring sold 54 million tickets in the U.S. and Canada and included people who saw the movie multiple times, of which there were a lot.



Yes, but that doesn't negate the point I was making, which is basically that while, yes, sex sells, selling doesn't require sex. I mean, do you think that LotR wouldn't have been wildly successful as a series?


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Now that is interesting. Is there a way it could be handled that could get it to GoT level and/or beyond? I haven't read the material, but what I have heard from people is that its unlikely. Im curious what elements are missed in the series?



Less CW shenanigans, IMO. We are talking about stories that had a big crossover appeal in book form including g from a large number of people who didn’t normally read fantasy (the sales on just the last book, that only people who read all the books would get, are enormous), so obviously the material can work for a broad audience if done well.

Some interesting prerelease metrics, st least:









						As Amazon Shifts to Big-Budget Bets, ‘The Wheel of Time’ Looks to Break Out Big
					

Amazon is beefing up its arsenal to fight in the streaming wars. First up: ‘The Wheel of Time.’




					observer.com


----------



## Mercurius

payn said:


> Now that is interesting. Is there a way it could be handled that could get it to GoT level and/or beyond? I haven't read the material, but what I have heard from people is that its unlikely. Im curious what elements are missed in the series?



Just interjecting here, one of the reasons that GoT was so popular was the quality of the acting and dialogue. I've only watched one episode of WoT so far, but clearly it is on a completely different (lower) level. That doesn't mean it can't or won't improve, just that GoT started at a much higher level.

Also, as others have said, GoT had "extra-genre" interest, because of its emphasis on political machinations and interesting characters, and the overall strengths of GRRM as a story-teller. Jordan had some strengths, but it as in areas that probably translate better to the page: world-building, epic storytelling, etc.

WoT _could _be a huge success--I mean, quality is hardly necessary for popularity, and it is certainly above the level of CW/Shannara--but I think it will take a bit of time, and it is far too soon to make a definitive statement (and iirc, GoT didn't really take off for a few seasons).


----------



## Demetrios1453

Parmandur said:


> Less CW shenanigans, IMO. We are talking about stories that had a big crossover appeal in book form including g from a large number of people who didn’t normally read fantasy (the sales on just the last book, that only people who read all the books would get, are enormous), so obviously the material can work for a broad audience if done well.
> 
> Some interesting prerelease metrics, st least:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Amazon Shifts to Big-Budget Bets, ‘The Wheel of Time’ Looks to Break Out Big
> 
> 
> Amazon is beefing up its arsenal to fight in the streaming wars. First up: ‘The Wheel of Time.’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> observer.com



The WoT subreddits are also reporting it was the most pirated show last week as per a website that tracks that sort of thing 

(This post does not condone pirating, just reporting on the facts)


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> Just interjecting here, one of the reasons that GoT was so popular was the quality of the acting and dialogue. I've only watched one episode of WoT so far, but clearly it is on a completely different (lower) level. That doesn't mean it can't or won't improve, just that GoT started at a much higher level.
> 
> Also, as others have said, GoT had "extra-genre" interest, because of its emphasis on political machinations and interesting characters, and the overall strengths of GRRM as a story-teller. Jordan had some strengths, but it as in areas that probably translate better to the page: world-building, epic storytelling, etc.
> 
> WoT _could _be a huge success--I mean, quality is hardly necessary for popularity, and it is certainly above the level of CW/Shannara--but I think it will take a bit of time, and it is far too soon to make a definitive statement (and iirc, GoT didn't really take off for a few seasons).



Robert Jordan had a certain gift for character, but worse for any adaptation his real gift was in depicting the interiority of the characters which really doesn't translate to the visual medium straightforwardly. The major change to Perrin's character with his wife and the axe is pretty obviously an attempt to exteriorize a purely interior and emotional struggle from the books.


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> The WoT subreddits are also reporting it was the most pirated show last week as per a website that tracks that sort of thing
> 
> (This post does not condone pirating, just reporting on the facts)



I mean, that's actually good for the show, insofar as pirated viewership tracks pretty proportionally with legit viewrship IIRC.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Parmandur said:


> I mean, that's actually good for the show, insofar as pirated viewership tracks pretty proportionally with legit viewrship IIRC.



Yep, that's exactly what I was getting at.


----------



## Parmandur

Some numbers here:









						The Wheel Of Time (Amazon Prime Video): United States daily TV audience insights for smarter content decisions - Parrot Analytics
					

The Wheel Of Time United States tv ratings and audience insights for Amazon Prime Video's Fantasy Drama series based on US demand data from Parrot Analytics for television executives. Includes audience growth rate, affinity and television ratings (market multiple) based on demand data.



					tv.parrotanalytics.com


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> Robert Jordan had a certain gift for character, but worse for any adaptation his real gift was in depicting the interiority of the characters which really doesn't translate to the visual medium straightforwardly. The majority change to Perrin's character with his wife and the axe is pretty obviously an attempt to exteriorize a purely interior and emotional struggle from the books.



It has been too long since I read one of his books (about 25 years) to agree or disagree on his characters, but I do remember being immersed and liking his characterization, for the most part. One of his well-known weaknesses was the saminess of his females, all sort of Polgara variants (and the infamous tugging of braids), but that is hardly unusual for male writers.

But I do think that GoT--both the books and show--had unusually good characters, and Martin had a rather potent cleverness with dialogue. It sets a pretty high bar, one I don't think WoT will meet, but nor does it need to, to be entertaining and successful.

Based upon just one episode, though, I'm reasonably confident that they won't make the mistake of trying to copy GoT, which also gives me hope for the Middle-earth series. One common writing advice I see is that as a writer, don't worry about current trends, or what is or is not popular. Write what you love, and do it as well as you can. I think this is true for TV series, not only because when you try to copy something, you'll almost always fall short and even look silly doing so, but also because fads are always changing.

Genres also don't tend to narrow, but expand. Meaning, any trend or popular sub-genre doesn't as much set the course of the genre, as it does expand it to include that avenue as a viable sub-genre. Twilight didn't kill horror or make it only about sexy vampires (at least not for more than a few years), and GoT didn't make fantasy focused only on grim-and-grittiness.


----------



## Maxperson

Mercurius said:


> It has been too long since I read one of his books (about 25 years) to agree or disagree on his characters, but I do remember being immersed and liking his characterization, for the most part. One of his well-known weaknesses was the saminess of his females, all sort of Polgara variants (and the infamous tugging of braids), but that is hardly unusual for male writers.



I don't agree with that.  Lanfear was different from Elaida who was different from Liandran, who was different from Moiraine who was different from Siuan. And so on. The braid tugging did get old, but the characters of the women were very different.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I don't agree with that.  Lanfear was different from Elaida who was different from Liandran, who was different from Moiraine who was different from Siuan. And so on. The braid tugging did get old, but the characters of the women were very different.



The braid tugging is down more to Jordan's interest in small details that a more pro writer, like Sanderson or Martin, might not dwell on. Jordan's stated influences were all 19th century authors, and sometimes it shows.


----------



## payn

Whats the braid pulling thing?


----------



## TheSword

I loved Game of Thrones but let’s be honest the show runners added gratuitous sex, and some pretty extreme language to what was already a pretty sexed up book. It was famous for having a lot of weiners. Genitalia in general to be fair. A lot of its appeal came from sex, grit, and shock violence.

… That ain’t Wheel of Time. I’m glad that approach hasn’t been applied. Wheel of Time can be shocking and it has adult themes but a lot of what it deals with is subtle. The fear of encroaching mental illness, thes psychological impact of slavery or imprisonment, the burden of responsibility, class struggle, the horror of war.

I just don’t see GOT dealing with this stuff. Not that it has to, to be a successful TV show. Just that a direct comparison isn’t very helpful.


----------



## Mercurius

payn said:


> Whats the braid pulling thing?



It was a bit of a joke among Jordan fans back in the day, because his female characters--especially Nynaeve, if I remember correctly--often tugged their braids when they were mad.


----------



## payn

IDK, the characters and conflict in WoT so far are not nearly as interesting as GoT. I know WoT has its fans, but GoT was more than just gratuitous nudity. Perhaps comparing them is unfair, but lots of folks are doing it so its getting the treatment.


----------



## Mercurius

Maxperson said:


> I don't agree with that.  Lanfear was different from Elaida who was different from Liandran, who was different from Moiraine who was different from Siuan. And so on. The braid tugging did get old, but the characters of the women were very different.



Maybe. It was my impression at the time, but I also had a girlfriend who was a radical feminist, underlying passages in Mary Daly books and writing my name next to them. Not sure how I'd feel today.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Whats the braid pulling thing?



At least one of the characters (Nyneave) has a nervous habit where she pulls her braid. And Jordan mentions this as an indicator of her mood in the text fairly often. It annoys some people.


----------



## Mercurius

The comparison between the two is inevitable, and quite understandable. Not only are they both big, epic fantasy stories, but they were compared back in the 90s. The Wheel of Time was a phenomena, at least in the fantasy world. In a way, it essentialized the epic fantasies of the 80s, and turned it up to 11. GoT came out in 1995--the heart of Jordanmania--and offered a very different approach to the traditional, epic fantasy. It also became very popular, although not as popular as Wheel of Time - at least not until the HBO series came out.


----------



## TheSword

payn said:


> Whats the braid pulling thing?



Nyneave has a temper, partly the result of being younger than people expect a village wisdom to be, so she feel second guessed and challenged more than others. Partly because she is a fierce protector of the Eamond’s Fielders. Partly because she has to leave behind a lot of the people she should protect to follow Moiraine, Egwene and the boys.

This temper often manifests itself as furiously tugging her extremely long braid. A bit like a stress toy. That anger is a big part of Nyneave’s character. Her mistrust of Aes Sedai has created a block that stops her being able to channel at will, even though she has the potential to be one of the most powerful channellers alive. She has to be angry to use the source, but when she is… particularly when she sees someone injured… she can work Magic that leaves even hardened Aes Sedai in open disbelief.

The point where she breaks this block and starts to accept the world and her circumstances, is a massive turning point for her character. Effectively a coming into power. Nyneave is a boss character and a favourite for many.

I always thought the criticism of the braid tugging was a bit snide.


----------



## payn

Wow, folks made a big deal of that?


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> IDK, the characters and conflict in WoT so far are not nearly as interesting as GoT. I know WoT has its fans, but GoT was more than just gratuitous nudity. Perhaps comparing them is unfair, but lots of folks are doing it so its getting the treatment.



To be honest, I haven't watched the show, only read the first four ASOIF books,  but the characters in Jordan have more going on down below, while Martin's have wittier dialogue.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Wow, folks made a big deal of that?



Yeah. On one hand, kind of a petty, on the other hand, it does come up more than you might think is reasonable. But I do think it's literally just a legitimate character trait, and the author uses it to show her having a bad poker face in narratively effective fashion at times.


----------



## payn

Mercurius said:


> The comparison between the two is inevitable, and quite understandable. Not only are they both big, epic fantasy stories, but they were compared back in the 90s. The Wheel of Time was a phenomena, at least in the fantasy world. In a way, it essentialized the epic fantasies of the 80s, and turned it up to 11. GoT came out in 1995--the heart of Jordanmania--and offered a very different approach to the traditional, epic fantasy. It also became very popular, although not as popular as Wheel of Time - at least not until the HBO series came out.



I have some litt fan friends and their taste is similar to mine. Most of them turn their nose at fantasy (I cant say I dont either) but one really liked fantasy. He told me, "WoT is a good fantasy read, but GoT is just good period." I was suspect and he gave me his copy years before the HBO series. Sat on my shelf until I finally read it. It was _really_ good. I'd give WoT a spin but way too many books to commit to. Especially, with all the mixed reviews on it. Not to say all of Martin's books in GoT series were great either (they weren't), just fewer to read.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> I have some litt fan friends and their taste is similar to mine. Most of them turn their nose at fantasy (I cant say I dont either) but one really liked fantasy. He told me, "WoT is a good fantasy read, but GoT is just good period." I was suspect and he gave me his copy years before the HBO series. Sat on my shelf until I finally read it. It was _really_ good. I'd give WoT a spin but way too many books to commit to. Especially, with all the mixed reviews on it. Not to say all of Martin's books in GoT series were great either (they weren't), just fewer to read.



The Eye of the World has a beginning, middle, and an end: my usual recommendation is to give the first book a try, because by the end you will either love or hate Jordan's prose style, and can either go all in or stop Sat a conve isn't point.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Wow, folks made a big deal of that?



Some people crunched the numbers, apparently:









						How Many Times Does Braid-Tugging and Skirt-Smoothing Happen in The Wheel of Time?
					

You’re a few books into Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time epic fantasy series and then you realize… the characters in this series tug their hair braids a lot. More than seems particul…




					www.tor.com


----------



## payn

Parmandur said:


> Some people crunched the numbers, apparently:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Many Times Does Braid-Tugging and Skirt-Smoothing Happen in The Wheel of Time?
> 
> 
> You’re a few books into Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time epic fantasy series and then you realize… the characters in this series tug their hair braids a lot. More than seems particul…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tor.com



Sounds like She was more into the Picard maneuver than the braid tug.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Sounds like She was more into the Picard maneuver than the braid tug.



Really what it is is that Jordan makes significsnt use of non-verbal communication throughout the books, which is admittedly not thst usual for writers to do most of the time.


----------



## payn

Parmandur said:


> Really what it is is that Jordan makes significsnt use of non-verbal communication throughout the books, which is admittedly not thst usual for writers to do most of the time.



Yeah, im guessing the shear number of books makes it feel like reading a meme too.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Yeah, im guessing the shear number of books makes it feel like reading a meme too.



It can, for sure: but that's how we actually are, as people, very often. Slipping into autosteretype and catchphrases.


----------



## Zaukrie

Parmandur said:


> The Eye of the World has a beginning, middle, and an end: my usual recommendation is to give the first book a try, because by the end you will either love or hate Jordan's prose style, and can either go all in or stop Sat a conve isn't point.



I liked the first book, but that wasn't enough to keep going. He, like Martin, needed an editor very badly. I stopped in book 4 or 5, as TO ME, it seemed nothing was happening at all. To me it was just the same scenes/story over and over. That said, I remember almost nothing from the books, so who knows, I could be wrong....

My point being, liking his prose wasn't enough for me, and for a lot of people that quit about where I did in the story.


----------



## Parmandur

In terms of comparing Game of Thrones and Wheel of time direct, I think they are far more obviously similar in books 4-6 of Wheel of Time, when stuff gets for REAL real.


----------



## Parmandur

Zaukrie said:


> I liked the first book, but that wasn't enough to keep going. He, like Martin, needed an editor very badly. I stopped in book 4 or 5, as TO ME, it seemed nothing was happening at all. To me it was just the same scenes/story over and over. That said, I remember almost nothing from the books, so who knows, I could be wrong....
> 
> My point being, liking his prose wasn't enough for me, and for a lot of people that quit about where I did in the story.



I can see that: however, most I know who tried either bounced off Eye of the World hard or went the distance.


----------



## Mercurius

It wasn't simply that Jordan needed an editor, its that he originally planned WoT to be five books and when it took off, his publisher said, "More, please." So I think it is a combination of both factors: The publisher asking for more (and him reaping the financial rewards) and his generally long-winded style and obsessive attention to detail and minutia.


----------



## Maxperson

payn said:


> Wow, folks made a big deal of that?



It was the frequency, more than the act itself.  We all have things we do when nervous or angry, but we don't do them any times.  Nynaeve did tug the braid almost any time, and it got to the point where it detracted a bit from her anger at the situation.  Especially when Jordan would add a qualifier to it like, "Naeneve tugged at her braid furiously." giving me the image her yanking on it repeatedly and hard, making her head move around.

Did it get annoying?  A little bit.  It wasn't a major deal, but it was noticeable.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> It wasn't simply that Jordan needed an editor, its that he originally planned WoT to be five books and when it took off, his publisher said, "More, please." So I think it is a combination of both factors: The publisher asking for more (and him reaping the financial rewards) and his generally long-winded style and obsessive attention to detail and minutia.



I heard him speak at a book signing once: he spoke exactly like he wrote, and his anecdotal sharing was structured exactly like his novels: slow and languid with an eye to detail, but with a strong punchline.

Having met t George R. R. Martin and Terry Pratchett under similar circumstances, I can say that those three writers all speak exactly the same way they write, and I strongly suspect this pattern would hold for most good writers.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> I heard him speak at a book signing once: he spoke exactly like he wrote, and his anecdotal sharing was structured exactly like his novels: slow and languid with an eye to detail, but with a strong punchline.
> 
> Having met t George R. R. Martin and Terry Pratchett under similar circumstances, I can say that those three writers all speak exactly the same way they write, and I strongly suspect this pattern would hold for most good writers.



I'm jealous!  Not about Martin.  His inability to finish a book in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time has completely turned me off to him.  I'm jealous about Pratchett.  If he talked how he wrote, he must have had a brilliant sense of humor.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> I heard him speak at a book signing once: he spoke exactly like he wrote, and his anecdotal sharing was structured exactly like his novels: slow and languid with an eye to detail, but with a strong punchline.
> 
> Having met t George R. R. Martin and Terry Pratchett under similar circumstances, I can say that those three writers all speak exactly the same way they write, and I strongly suspect this pattern would hold for most good writers.



Interesting. I also saw Jordan, back in the mid-90s at Powell's books in Portland, OR. I vaguely remember his cane and somewhat Victorian style.

I find it interesting just how much an author's writing reflects their personality. I think that's partially why I couldn't get through Name of the Wind. It isn't that I dislike Rothfuss as a person (I don't know him), but when I see him in author panels he completely dominates the conversation, even to the point of not giving the other authors a chance to talk without chiming in with his two cents. Rothfuss evidently really likes being a celebrity (or maybe love-hates).


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I'm jealous!  Not about Martin.  His inability to finish a book in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time has completely turned me off to him.  I'm jealous about Pratchett.  If he talked how he wrote, he must have had a brilliant sense of humor.



I mean, ironically it was a signing for A Feast of Crows, which was the shark jumping moment for me with the series and Martin as a writer. But still, it was interesting to me that he wrote the same way thst he spoke, precisely. Humorously enough, I was probably one of the first people to teach A Song of Ice & Fire in a classroom setting st the time as an undergraduate.

I got two books signed by Pratchett on different tours: "Thud" and I believe "Unseen Academicals". He was hilarious and brilliant in person.


----------



## payn

Parmandur said:


> I mean, ironically it was a signing for A Feast of Crows, which was the shark jumping moment for me with the series and Martin as a writer. But still, it was interesting to me that he wrote the same way thst he spoke, precisely. Humorously enough, I was probably one of the first people to teach A Song of Ice & Fire in a classroom setting st the time as an undergraduate.
> 
> I got two books signed by Pratchett on different tours: "Thid" and I believe "Unseen Academicals". He was hilarious and brilliant in person.



I was a little slow, it was A Dance with Dragons that jumped the shark for me. Thats a cool story tho.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> I was a little slow, it was A Dance with Dragons that jumped the shark for me. Thats a cool story tho.



Yeah, I think the act of teaching from the texts and discussing them with a bunch of other sharp undergraduates undermined the fun for me considerably as the analysis glasses went on.


----------



## Mort

Zaukrie said:


> I liked the first book, but that wasn't enough to keep going. He, like Martin, needed an editor very badly. I stopped in book 4 or 5, as TO ME, it seemed nothing was happening at all. To me it was just the same scenes/story over and over. That said, I remember almost nothing from the books, so who knows, I could be wrong....
> 
> My point being, liking his prose wasn't enough for me, and for a lot of people that quit about where I did in the story.




Jordan HAD an editor - his wife, and that was the problem. 

She was by all accounts an excellent editor (acknowledged as the top editor at a fairly prestigious publishing house) - but she was just to close and couldn't edit as objectively as with a "regular" client. 

Somewhere into the series she even acknowledged that while she was still the listed editor she basically let her husband do his own editing and while she might offer input she wouldn't force changes.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Mort said:


> Jordan HAD an editor - his wife, and that was the problem.
> 
> She was by all accounts an excellent editor (acknowledged as the top editor at a fairly prestigious publishing house) - but she was just to close and couldn't edit as objectively as with a "regular" client.
> 
> Somewhere into the series she even acknowledged that while she was still the listed editor she basically let her husband do his own editing and while she might offer input she wouldn't force changes.



And as a result, having to cut things for a televised version of the series is something of a silver lining at times, especially in some of the middle books wheres there's plenty of room for pruning excess material...


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Demetrios1453 said:


> And as a result, having to cut things for a televised version of the series is something of a silver lining at times, especially in some of the middle books wheres there's plenty of room for pruning excess material...



That's certainly something I'm looking forward to with the TV series -- some solid editing and streamlining (to be fair, ASOIAF really needs this in spades, especially post-ASOS).

I stalled out and crashed on the books about book 7 when long stretches of nothing happening but skirt smoothing, sniffing, and braid tugging happened. My wife and I eventually came back and listened to the entire series on audiobook on long trips, which made it more palatable,. I still think Brandon Sanderson was the best thing to happen to the series. Jordan set up the win, but he was not a closer -- Sanderson is a closer.


----------



## Parmandur

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> That's certainly something I'm looking forward to with the TV series -- some solid editing and streamlining (to be fair, ASOIAF really needs this in spades, especially post-ASOS).
> 
> I stalled out and crashed on the books about book 7 when long stretches of nothing happening but skirt smoothing, sniffing, and braid tugging happened. My wife and I eventually came back and listened to the entire series on audiobook on long trips, which made it more palatable,. I still think Brandon Sanderson was the best thing to happen to the series. Jordan set up the win, but he was not a closer -- Sanderson is a closer.



I think Jordan could have finished eventually...but it wouldn't have been as efficient.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> I think Jordan could have finished eventually...but it wouldn't have been as efficient.



And given Rand's personality as Jordan wrote it, I sincerely doubt Rand would have ended things the way that he did.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> And given Rand's personality as Jordan wrote it, I sincerely doubt Rand would have ended things the way that he did.



I dunno, I think that is how Jordan meant it to end (since IIRC that was 100% his text, no Sanderson), but he had some difficulty making the final connection.


----------



## TheSword

I don’t know why people think Jordan wouldn’t have finished. In Book 11 he moves the plot on extensively.

I really do think books 10-15 fly by.

Though I do agree with @Olgar Shiverstone that the audio books are a great way to enjoy the series.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> I don’t know why people think Jordan wouldn’t have finished. In Book 11 he moves the plot on extensively.
> 
> I really do think books 10-15 fly by.
> 
> Though I do agree with @Olgar Shiverstone that the audio books are a great way to enjoy the series.



Given how desperate he was to have one final book, yet how.packed 12-14 ended up being, it's unclear how he would have ended it in the final tally. I think he would have, but it may have taken more time.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Mercurius said:


> It has been too long since I read one of his books (about 25 years) to agree or disagree on his characters, but I do remember being immersed and liking his characterization, for the most part. One of his well-known weaknesses was the saminess of his females, all sort of Polgara variants (and the infamous tugging of braids), but that is hardly unusual for male writers.



None of them are even similar to any of the others, and frankly I'm not sure any are similar to Polgara.


Parmandur said:


> The braid tugging is down more to Jordan's interest in small details that a more pro writer, like Sanderson or Martin, might not dwell on. Jordan's stated influences were all 19th century authors, and sometimes it shows.



You might want to read up on James Oliver Rigney's other credits under other names and his other work under the pseudonym Robert Jordan, such as his many Conan works which are widely considered some of the best works by secondary authors, before calling either of those authors more "pro" than him. 

I like Sanderson, but he is absolutely in Jordan's shadow in nearly every respect, and Martin is...fine, but overrated, and his impact is nowhere near that of Jordan's, nor is his body of work. 

The small details are not a weakness, they're just a style of writing that you don't necessarily prefer.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Zaukrie said:


> He, like Martin, needed an editor very badly.



He had multiple editors, one of which was his wife. Luckily, they understood the work, and that not every work needs to be zippy and concise.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> We all have things we do when nervous or angry, but* we don't do them any times.*



Every single real life human I have ever met puts lie to this claim.


----------



## Parmandur

So, looks like the start is strong in terms of viewership:

“'We can firmly say that Wheel of Time was the most watched series premiere of the year and one of the Top 5 series launches of all time for Prime Video,' Amazon Studios head Jennifer Salke told Deadline about the debut, acknowledging that the company — like most streamers  — 'try to figure out how transparent we are going to be in the future' with ratings."

 "Prime Video is among the SVOD platforms that do not disclose viewership data but Salke revealed that “there were tens and tens of millions of streams” for The Wheel Of Time in the first three days of its release, with the US, India, Brazil, Canada, France, Germany as the top countries."










						‘The Wheel Of Time’ Makes Strong Debut As Amazon Prime Video Doubles Down On Genre With ‘Mass Effect’ Adaptation & Prepares To Usher In ‘LOTR’
					

EXCLUSIVE: Amazon Prime Video’s series adaptation of Robert Jordan’s best-selling The Wheel Of Time fantasy novels has come out of the gate strong. “We can firmly say that Wheel of Time…




					deadline.com


----------



## Parmandur

doctorbadwolf said:


> None of them are even similar to any of the others, and frankly I'm not sure any are similar to Polgara.
> 
> You might want to read up on James Oliver Rigney's other credits under other names and his other work under the pseudonym Robert Jordan, such as his many Conan works which are widely considered some of the best works by secondary authors, before calling either of those authors more "pro" than him.
> 
> I like Sanderson, but he is absolutely in Jordan's shadow in nearly every respect, and Martin is...fine, but overrated, and his impact is nowhere near that of Jordan's, nor is his body of work.
> 
> The small details are not a weakness, they're just a style of writing that you don't necessarily prefer.




On the contrary, I very much prefer Jordan's style in terms of personal taste: by "pro" I mean thst Sanderson and Martin were formed as professional writers, as their primary skill set. They are writers who learned the tricks of the trade in writers rooms and literature classrooms. Robert Jordan was not, and was a literate man who took up writing as a secondary or tertiary career after some long life experience. He does things that a Hollywood type like Martin or a M.F.A. like Sanderson wouldn't do, so it is not "professional." Not "professional" doesn't mean not good, and out if style isn't wrong (see also, J. R. R. Tolkien).

Beyond WoT, I've read the Conan Books, Warrior of the Altaii, and Cheyenne Raiders myself.


----------



## Parmandur

doctorbadwolf said:


> Every single real life human I have ever met puts lie to this claim.



Yeah, it's realistic, frankly. He had a deep knowledge of human nature.


----------



## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> Every single real life human I have ever met puts lie to this claim.



When I get mad sometimes I clench my fists.  Other times I clench my jaw.  Rarely I punch a pillow or something soft.  Sometimes yell.  Sometimes I speak very softly.  Sometimes I say nothing at all and just stare.  Sometimes I pace.  I don't do any of those anywhere near all the time.


----------



## Mordhau

Maxperson said:


> When I get mad sometimes I clench my fists.  Other times I clench my jaw.  Rarely I punch a pillow or something soft.  Sometimes yell.  Sometimes I speak very softly.  Sometimes I say nothing at all and just stare.  Sometimes I pace.  I don't do any of those anywhere near all the time.



It's not the fact of the mannerism that draws attention, it's the repetitive elaboration of descriptive detail.


----------



## Parmandur

Mordhau said:


> It's not the fact of the mannerism that draws attention, it's the repetitive elaboration of descriptive detail.



It's not all that repetitive, across hundreds of thousands of words.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Maxperson said:


> When I get mad sometimes I clench my fists.  Other times I clench my jaw.  Rarely I punch a pillow or something soft.  Sometimes yell.  Sometimes I speak very softly.  Sometimes I say nothing at all and just stare.  Sometimes I pace.  I don't do any of those anywhere near all the time.



I guarantee, without the least thread of doubt, that someone that has known you for years could describe a behavior, tick, etc, that you perform reliably under a given type circumstance.  

I am skeptical that an exception exists or has ever existed in all of human history.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Parmandur said:


> On the contrary, I very much prefer Jordan's style in terms of personal taste: by "pro" I mean thst Sanderson and Martin were formed as professional writers, as their primary skill set. They are writers who learned the tricks of the trade in writers rooms and literature classrooms. Robert Jordan was not, and was a literate man who took up writing as a secondary or tertiary career after some long life experience. He does things that a Hollywood type like Martin or a M.F.A. like Sanderson wouldn't do, so it is not "professional." Not "professional" doesn't mean not good, and out if style isn't wrong (see also, J. R. R. Tolkien).
> 
> Beyond WoT, I've read the Conan Books, Warrior of the Altaii, and Cheyenne Raiders myself.



Ah, I see. I disagree with the choice of terminology, but I won’t nitpick, knowing the intended meaning.


----------



## Parmandur

doctorbadwolf said:


> Ah, I see. I disagree with the choice of terminology, but I won’t nitpick, knowing the intended meaning.



I'd be open to a different way of saying it, but it seems the most efficient thst I can think of: "consensus mainstream style recommendations among late 20th century Anglo-American writers" might be more precise.


----------



## Mercurius

doctorbadwolf said:


> None of them are even similar to any of the others, and frankly I'm not sure any are similar to Polgara.



Well, that wasn't my impression 25 years ago, but again, it has been awhile. I remember thinking that--at the least--his female characters were more similar to each other than his males. It was a common view, iirc.



doctorbadwolf said:


> I like Sanderson, but he is absolutely in Jordan's shadow in nearly every respect, and Martin is...fine, but overrated, and his impact is nowhere near that of Jordan's, nor is his body of work.



What do you mean by "impact?" Impact on what? Fantasy literature? Culture? World events? Cosmic history?



doctorbadwolf said:


> The small details are not a weakness, they're just a style of writing that you don't necessarily prefer.



True. He is more Dickensian than Hemingwaysian (awkward). I think part of his appeal for many was how granular his descriptions were. But it is a stylistic preference, or a spectrum that he's on one end of and someone like Michael Moorcock is on the other (at least his earlier stuff, pre-Gloriana).


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> It's not all that repetitive, across hundreds of thousands of words.



But it isn't really across hundreds of thousands of words.  It's across the far fewer words that deal with Nynaeve, so are more readily remembered and repetitive.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> But it isn't really across hundreds of thousands of words.  It's across the far fewer words that deal with Nynaeve, so are more readily remembered and repetitive.



Fair point. It never felt repetitive to me, but then it also conveys actual narrative information in context and is not filler.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> Well, that wasn't my impression 25 years ago, but again, it has been awhile. I remember thinking that--at the least--his female characters were more similar to each other than his males. It was a common view, iirc.



It is a frequently stated view, but it never made sense to me: Jordan has quite distinctive female characters. Which becomes even more evident when the POV characters start coming from cultures beyond the Two Rivers (Aviendha on a boat might be one of the finest pieces of third person limited narration I've ever read, in a literary sense).


Mercurius said:


> What do you mean by "impact?" Impact on what? Fantasy literature? Culture? World events? Cosmic history?



I can't speak for @doctorbadwolf , but for myself: all of the above. Martin has some talent as a wordsmith and has had an hour of popularity, but his books are ultimately meaningless (very literally, the point is to negate the concept of meaning thematically).

Just in cultural terms, Wheel of Time is necessarily more influential, as part of it's influence is Martin writing his books.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> It is a frequently stated view, but it never made sense to me: Jordan has quite distinctive female characters. Which becomes even more evident when the POV characters start coming from cultures beyond the Two Rivers (Aviendha on a boat might be one of the finest pieces of third person limited narration I've ever read, in a literary sense).
> 
> I can't speak for @doctorbadwolf , but for myself: all of the above. Martin has some talent as a wordsmith and has had an hour of popularity, but his books are ultimately meaningless (very literally, the point is to negate the concept of meaning thematically).
> 
> Just in cultural terms, Wheel of Time is necessarily more influential, as part of it's influence is Martin writing his books.



I think that is debatable. Mind you, I say this as someone who preferred Wheel of Time to Game of Thrones, for a variety of reasons. But I think in terms of cultural impact, at least as of right now, GoT--via the tv series--inhabited a space in the public mind that WoT has not (yet) touched.

Now _within _fantasy literature is a different matter, although I still think isn't a clear-cut case.

As for your last sentence, I think that is a bit dubious, because then we can say that Tolkien trumps all, or even, Shakespeare or Homer or Gilgamesh trumps all. I think it is more meaningful to consider every book or story or author as a starting point of a "sphere of influence," and then specify a context.

So I think within the context of fantasy literature, it is debatable. Within the context of Western culture, GoT has been more impactful (so far).

In terms of cosmic history, neither is more or less impactful unless, of course, WoT inspires some mad scientist to create balefire, and then we're in trouble.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> I think that is debatable. Mind you, I say this as someone who preferred Wheel of Time to Game of Thrones, for a variety of reasons. But I think in terms of cultural impact, at least as of right now, GoT--via the tv series--inhabited a space in the public mind that WoT has not (yet) touched.
> 
> Now _within _fantasy literature is a different matter, although I still think isn't a clear-cut case.
> 
> As for your last sentence, I think that is a bit dubious, because then we can say that Tolkien trumps all, or even, Shakespeare or Homer or Gilgamesh trumps all. I think it is more meaningful to consider every book or story or author as a starting point of a "sphere of influence," and then specify a context.
> 
> So I think within the context of fantasy literature, it is debatable. Within the context of Western culture, GoT has been more impactful (so far).
> 
> In terms of cosmic history, neither is more or less impactful unless, of course, WoT inspires some mad scientist to create balefire, and then we're in trouble.



More than Tolkien even, the success of the Wheel of Time in the early 90's(and Memory, Sorrow, & Thorn but that's another story altogether) is what led to Game of Thrones being a going publishing concern: Martin saw what was being done in that space, and left his Hollywood gig to throw his hat in yhst ring.

And even aside from GoT, a lot of pop culture from the past 30 years has a clear trace of Wheel of Time DNA present (Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra being prime examples).


----------



## Zaukrie

Post what you want, but I wonder what a thread about the TV show would read like.....


----------



## Demetrios1453

Zaukrie said:


> Post what you want, but I wonder what a thread about the TV show would read like.....



How about the promo for Episode 4:


----------



## Parmandur

Zaukrie said:


> Post what you want, but I wonder what a thread about the TV show would read like.....



The show, the books...all form but parts of one Pattern.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Parmandur said:


> More than Tolkien even, the success of the Wheel of Time in the early 90's(and Memory, Sorrow, & Thorn but that's another story altogether) is what led to Game of Thrones being a going publishing concern: Martin saw what was being done in that space, and left his Hollywood gig to throw his hat in yhst ring.
> 
> And even aside from GoT, a lot of pop culture from the past 30 years has a clear trace of Wheel of Time DNA present (Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra being prime examples).



Also, the impact of GoT seems to have been quite brief and shallow. Other than people obnoxiously parroting the phrasing of “bend the knee”, and some actors having thier careers launched, I can’t think of any impact the show has had that lasted beyond the immediate period after the airing of the finale.  

I guess the books probably influenced a few writers, but I can’t recall anyone I’ve read citing Martin as an important influence. 

To be fair, I only read the first book, and couldn’t bring myself to bother with the rest of the series.


----------



## Parmandur

doctorbadwolf said:


> Also, the impact of GoT seems to have been quite brief and shallow. Other than people obnoxiously parroting the phrasing of “bend the knee”, and some actors having thier careers launched, I can’t think of any impact the show has had that lasted beyond the immediate period after the airing of the finale.
> 
> I guess the books probably influenced a few writers, but I can’t recall anyone I’ve read citing Martin as an important influence.
> 
> To be fair, I only read the first book, and couldn’t bring myself to bother with the rest of the series.



I read the first four, largely because of the Robert Jordan blurb on the first book: waiting for the fourth was excruciating, five years between books. That's bigger than any WoT publishing gap, and that was painful at the time, too. Then he didn't publish the next for six years, in which time I got over the style and moved on, while at the same time the show made the stories hip for 15 minutes (my only "I was into it before it was cool" moment in my entire life). My wife, when she tried them years later, hated the first book so much ("what the hell is this sick misogynistic and racist crap??") that she insisted that we sell them. We never sell books. She liked Martin's prose stylings, but hated the content and that he used his powers for evil rather than good.

The show really didn't seem to stick the landing, which from what I've read (because I am not spoiler averse) is in the DNA of the stories from the beginning, people just didn't pick up what Martin was laying down.

Wheel of Time, the books, stuck the landing with a flourish. We'll see about the show: at least they have the advantage of being able to map the entire story in detail from the word Go, unlike the GoT shennanigans.


----------



## TheSword

Mercurius said:


> Well, that wasn't my impression 25 years ago, but again, it has been awhile. I remember thinking that--at the least--his female characters were more similar to each other than his males. It was a common view, iirc.
> 
> What do you mean by "impact?" Impact on what? Fantasy literature? Culture? World events? Cosmic history?
> 
> True. He is more Dickensian than Hemingwaysian (awkward). I think part of his appeal for many was how granular his descriptions were. But it is a stylistic preference, or a spectrum that he's on one end of and someone like Michael Moorcock is on the other (at least his earlier stuff, pre-Gloriana).



I think for me granularity of descriptions isn’t really the main thing. Instead it’s down to:

Heroic characters that come into their own from zero to hero
meticulous and consistent world building, reinforced over and over again in hundreds of circumstances.
A strong compelling mythology of the world with clear links to the current story
More moments of awesome than three other book series combined.

The last for me is why Wheel of Time blows the socks of Game of Thrones. GOT has come cool bits in it (usually involving dragons), but most of the climaxes in GOT where the result of tragedy striking - Ned’s head, red wedding, purple wedding, Tyrion’s second trial etc.

Wheel of Time however takes the mythology, takes the characters, takes events up to that point and weaves them into spectacular achievements that are so epic they could be series climaxes in their own regards. The Eye of the World; Falme; The rings of Rhuidean; The breaking at Alcair Dal; Dumai’s Wells; The Cleansing; Egwene’s Election; Egwene v Elaida; The Raid of Tar Valon; Verin’s revelation; The Tower of Genji; The Last Battle… and many many many more encounters. Any of those are more powerful than events in GOT.


----------



## payn

As a reader who dislikes most fantasy, Martin had the right mix of political intrigue and characterization that's almost non-existent in fantasy writing. Tragedy has a way of sticking with people, I mean Shakespeare stuff still sells like hot cakes. Martin brought that element to fantasy genre. That was why I enjoyed it. My least favorite things were the white walkers and dragons, so I can see why fantasy fans might not have thought much of it.


----------



## TheSword

payn said:


> As a reader who dislikes most fantasy, Martin had the right mix of political intrigue and characterization that's almost non-existent in fantasy writing. Tragedy has a way of sticking with people, I mean Shakespeare stuff still sells like hot cakes. Martin brought that element to fantasy genre. That was why I enjoyed it. My least favorite things were the white walkers and dragons, so I can see why fantasy fans might not have thought much of it.



There’s plenty of characterization and political intrigue in WOT.

Though if you don’t like fantasy then you may not enjoy it. Because it is undeniable fantasy.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> As a reader who dislikes most fantasy, Martin had the right mix of political intrigue and characterization that's almost non-existent in fantasy writing. Tragedy has a way of sticking with people, I mean Shakespeare stuff still sells like hot cakes. Martin brought that element to fantasy genre. That was why I enjoyed it. My least favorite things were the white walkers and dragons, so I can see why fantasy fans might not have thought much of it.



Taken as a whole across all 14 books, Wheel of Time ends up having as much if not more political intrigue and definitely more characterization than a Song of Ice & Fire. Game of Thrones definitely starts at a higher speed than Eye of the World.


----------



## Demetrios1453

TheSword said:


> I think for me granularity of descriptions isn’t really the main thing. Instead it’s down to:
> 
> Heroic characters that come into their own from zero to hero
> meticulous and consistent world building, reinforced over and over again in hundreds of circumstances.
> A strong compelling mythology of the world with clear links to the current story
> More moments of awesome than three other book series combined.
> 
> The last for me is why Wheel of Time blows the socks of Game of Thrones. GOT has come cool bits in it (usually involving dragons), but most of the climaxes in GOT where the result of tragedy striking - Ned’s head, red wedding, purple wedding, Tyrion’s second trial etc.
> 
> Wheel of Time however takes the mythology, takes the characters, takes events up to that point and weaves them into spectacular achievements that are so epic they could be series climaxes in their own regards. The Eye of the World; Falme; The rings of Rhuidean; The breaking at Alcair Dal; Dumai’s Wells; The Cleansing; Egwene’s Election; Egwene v Elaida; The Raid of Tar Valon; Verin’s revelation; The Tower of Genji; The Last Battle… and many many many more encounters. Any of those are more powerful than events in GOT.



Verin's revelation was one of the most jaw-dropping moments I have ever seen/read in any media. Here's a character we've been following for decades, and we knew _something_ was up... but... wow. I would have never guessed _that_ was what was going on, even though it had been set up perfectly during the course of several novels. I really, really can't wait to see that scene play out onscreen, and the non-book fans' reaction to it...


----------



## Maxperson

Demetrios1453 said:


> Verin's revelation was one of the most jaw-dropping moments I have ever seen/read in any media. Here's a character we've been following for decades, and we knew _something_ was up... but... wow. I would have never guessed _that_ was what was going on, even though it had been set up perfectly during the course of several novels. I really, really can't wait to see that scene play out onscreen, and the non-book fans' reaction to it...



I think it will be more readily apparent on-screen.  There will have to be odd shifty looks and such to set up the revelation, like they did with Padan Fain in episode 1. It's easier to sneak by in print.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> I think it will be more readily apparent on-screen. There will have to be odd shifty looks and such to set up the revelation, like they did with Padan Fain in episode 1. It's easier to sneak by in print.



On the surface level, yes. Fans started getting suspicions early on. But what she had actually done on a secondary level, and the why and how... that's the truly awesome part, and something that will (hopefully) come as the true surprise.


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> Verin's revelation was one of the most jaw-dropping moments I have ever seen/read in any media. Here's a character we've been following for decades, and we knew _something_ was up... but... wow. I would have never guessed _that_ was what was going on, even though it had been set up perfectly during the course of several novels. I really, really can't wait to see that scene play out onscreen, and the non-book fans' reaction to it...



I mean, I spent too much time in speculation circles back in the day, but it was one of the primary guesses as to what she was up to. Actually a lot of the weirder stuff was guessed at some point by someone or other, which is why Jordan had to engage his poker face _HARD_ when dealing with fan questions. Martin was not so successful at his bluff checks back when people figured out Jon Snow's parentage in the 90's.


----------



## TheSword

I forgot the battle of the Two Rivers… love it so much.


----------



## Maxperson

Next episode is tomorrow.  I'll watch it before we head out to Thanksgiving.


----------



## Zardnaar

Seemes popular. 









						‘The Wheel Of Time’ Makes Strong Debut As Amazon Prime Video Doubles Down On Genre With ‘Mass Effect’ Adaptation & Prepares To Usher In ‘LOTR’
					

EXCLUSIVE: Amazon Prime Video’s series adaptation of Robert Jordan’s best-selling The Wheel Of Time fantasy novels has come out of the gate strong. “We can firmly say that Wheel of Time…




					deadline.com
				




 Looks like we'll have 3 good fantasy series all more or less concurrent.


----------



## Parmandur

Zardnaar said:


> Seemes popular.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘The Wheel Of Time’ Makes Strong Debut As Amazon Prime Video Doubles Down On Genre With ‘Mass Effect’ Adaptation & Prepares To Usher In ‘LOTR’
> 
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: Amazon Prime Video’s series adaptation of Robert Jordan’s best-selling The Wheel Of Time fantasy novels has come out of the gate strong. “We can firmly say that Wheel of Time…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> deadline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like we'll have 3 good fantasy series all more or less concurrent.



I mean, even three problematic but high budget fantasy series on air concurrently would have been an unthinkable paradise to me in 1999.


----------



## Zardnaar

Parmandur said:


> I mean, even three problematic but high budget fantasy series on air concurrently would have been an unthinkable paradise to me in 1999.




 None if them are as good as GoT when it was great. All are better than GoT after it went downhill.


----------



## Parmandur

Zardnaar said:


> None if them are as good as GoT when it was great. All are better than GoT after it went downhill.



All of them are better than the Beastmaster TV show. As a 90's kid, my bar for acceptable is looooooow.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

TheSword said:


> I think for me granularity of descriptions isn’t really the main thing. Instead it’s down to:
> 
> Heroic characters that come into their own from zero to hero
> meticulous and consistent world building, reinforced over and over again in hundreds of circumstances.
> A strong compelling mythology of the world with clear links to the current story
> More moments of awesome than three other book series combined.
> 
> The last for me is why Wheel of Time blows the socks of Game of Thrones. GOT has come cool bits in it (usually involving dragons), but most of the climaxes in GOT where the result of tragedy striking - Ned’s head, red wedding, purple wedding, Tyrion’s second trial etc.
> 
> Wheel of Time however takes the mythology, takes the characters, takes events up to that point and weaves them into spectacular achievements that are so epic they could be series climaxes in their own regards. The Eye of the World; Falme; The rings of Rhuidean; The breaking at Alcair Dal; Dumai’s Wells; The Cleansing; Egwene’s Election; Egwene v Elaida; The Raid of Tar Valon; Verin’s revelation; The Tower of Genji; The Last Battle… and many many many more encounters. Any of those are more powerful than events in GOT.



Egwene’s big thing in the last battle…I haven’t the words. Just incredible.  

Hell Rand coming back down Dragonmount was a beautiful moment.  

When they save Moraine.  

Lan’s ride to the last battle and Nynaeve’s whole thing.


----------



## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> Egwene’s big thing in the last battle…I haven’t the words. Just incredible.
> 
> Hell Rand coming back down Dragonmount was a beautiful moment.
> 
> When they save Moraine.
> 
> Lan’s ride to the last battle and Nynaeve’s whole thing.



I really, really liked all of Matt's and Tuon's interactions.  Especially when you could see inside of Tuon's head and know her thoughts.


----------



## Dioltach

Parmandur said:


> I mean, even three problematic but high budget fantasy series on air concurrently would have been an unthinkable paradise to me in 1999.



I remember the 80s, when _Willow _set the standard for fantasy movies.


----------



## Parmandur

Dioltach said:


> I remember the 80s, when _Willow _set the standard for fantasy movies.



There's a Willow show.coming to Disney+! A golden age is upon us!


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I really, really liked all of Matt's and Tuon's interactions.  Especially when you could see inside of Tuon's head and know her thoughts.



Say, Tuon, there's a different female character for you.

One part of character that Jordan was exceptionally good at was cultural difference. Tuon and Aviendha, for instance, had very diffeperspectives and that mattered when we saw their POV.


----------



## hawkeyefan

I think Jordan was actually good at portraying a variety of female characters. The main women are all pretty distinct…Egwene, Aviendha, Elayne, Min, Moiraine, Verin, Lanfear, Siuan, Moghedien….they’re all strong individuals. There’s some similarities for sure, but no more than the similarities among the men.

I think where it becomes a bit of an issue is simply the number of secondary female characters. There are so many entourages and groups of women who can channel that many start to blend together.


----------



## TheSword

hawkeyefan said:


> I think Jordan was actually good at portraying a variety of female characters. The main women are all pretty distinct…Egwene, Aviendha, Elayne, Min, Moiraine, Verin, Lanfear, Siuan, Moghedien….they’re all strong individuals. There’s some similarities for sure, but no more than the similarities among the men.
> 
> I think where it becomes a bit of an issue is simply the number of secondary female characters. There are so many entourages and groups of women who can channel that many start to blend together.



I agree. It’s a series with literally hundreds of female characters and yet if you showed me a picture or a few lines of text I bet I could tell the difference between Romalda, Anaiya and Sheriam.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Episode 4 is out, and it's followed the pattern of improving each episode. Really loved the Logain parts...


----------



## Argyle King

I have no knowledge of the books.

What are some of the changes from the books to the show?

I just finished episode 1, and I admittedly struggled with it.


----------



## Zardnaar

Dioltach said:


> I remember the 80s, when _Willow _set the standard for fantasy movies.




 Need to rewatch that. Think it's on Amazon? 

 That or Labyrinth.


----------



## Zardnaar

Demetrios1453 said:


> Episode 4 is out, and it's followed the pattern of improving each episode. Really loved the Logain parts...




 Yeah best episode of the season. 

 Prettybdamn good show overall. 9/10 that episode IMDb gave it 9.5.


----------



## Maxperson

Argyle King said:


> I have no knowledge of the books.
> 
> What are some of the changes from the books to the show?
> 
> I just finished episode 1, and I admittedly struggled with it.



From episode 1?  The big changes were that in the books Perrin wasn't even dating, let alone married.  And Matt's father was not a drunk or a cheat.  Oh, and in the books the Dragon Reborn was prophesized to be male.  It wasn't an unknown like the show portrays.


----------



## Maxperson

I liked episode 4.  It hit many of the points of the books, but in different ways that I found to be acceptable.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Argyle King said:


> I have no knowledge of the books.
> 
> What are some of the changes from the books to the show?
> 
> I just finished episode 1, and I admittedly struggled with it.



Pretty much everyone agrees that Episode 1 is uneven; the showrunner stated in a recent AMA on Reddit that he had hoped for a longer first episode but had to get everything needed into one with the normal running time. It's also pretty much agreed upon that each episode is better than the previous.


----------



## TheSword

just watched episode 4. Wow. Just wow.

Really liked the Way of the Leaf delivery and the lifestyle of the Travelling Folk. Let’s be honest it had some real punch for Perrin now after his wife. Whatever you think about that particular decision. The scene also set the spirituality of the wheel turning in a way that comforts and that people believe in deeply. All Ila’s lines are delivered with such sad, tranquility that she’s building up to some real pathos. Aram is also charismatic and likeable. 5 stars for their delivery and I think it’s setting up for some really impactful returns later on.

Matt and Rand have barely got to know Thom but I like him. The Owen story was delivered well and we’re getting repeated mentions now of men channelling, gentling and what happens afterwards. The fade scene was good, though I wish we could have enjoyed a little more fade. I think it’s quite clever how we are clearly meant to think Matt can channel and possibly be the Dragon Reborn. The sickness of Shador Lorgoth is maybe a bit more manifest than in the books but it’s creepy, powerful and has no love for the shadow… exactly as it should.

Lastly, Moiraine, Lan and Nyneave. I’m loving this. Sassy lines from Nyneave. Some subtle flirting between her and Lan. A window into the wider world of Aes Sedai, Warders, the Ajahs, shielding, linking and probably other things I can’t think of now. The warders bond shown through an Aes Sedai’s death. Finally what an amazing way of showing Nyneave’s power and lead us to think she has potential as the dragon reborn. There were some other clever drops ins. Moiraine struggling to keep Logain shielded, and then asking her if he is as strong as Egwene and Moiraine not being sure. That’s some elegannt and clever writing there to position Egwene.

Finally Logain. The icing on the cake. The Ghealdan siege scene was great. Moiraine’s conversation was tense and loaded. His break out dramatic and impressive - even his gentling was delivered exceptionally well. We even got a hint of the risk of burning out as Liandrin’s skin starts to glow from inside. This scene brought a lot of things that happened off screen in the books to the screen and I’m cool with that. They did a good job.

I think this episode shows how wrong anyone is who thought they spent the special effects budget in episode one!!!


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> just watched episode 4. Wow. Just wow.
> 
> Really liked the Way of the Leaf delivery and the lifestyle of the Travelling Folk. Let’s be honest it had some real punch for Perrin now after his wife. Whatever you think about that particular decision. The scene also set the spirituality of the wheel turning in a way that comforts and that people believe in deeply. All Ila’s lines are delivered with such sad, tranquility that she’s building up to some real pathos. Aram is also charismatic and likeable. 5 stars for their delivery and I think it’s setting up for some really impactful returns later on.
> 
> Matt and Rand have barely got to know Thom but I like him. The Owen story was delivered well and we’re getting repeated mentions now of men channelling, gentling and what happens afterwards. The fade scene was good, though I wish we could have enjoyed a little more fade. I think it’s quite clever how we are clearly meant to think Matt can channel and possibly be the Dragon Reborn. The sickness of Shador Lorgoth is maybe a bit more manifest than in the books but it’s creepy, powerful and has no love for the shadow… exactly as it should.
> 
> Lastly, Moiraine, Lan and Nyneave. I’m loving this. Sassy lines from Nyneave. Some subtle flirting between her and Lan. A window into the wider world of Aes Sedai, Warders, the Ajahs, shielding, linking and probably other things I can’t think of now. The warders bond shown through an Aes Sedai’s death. Finally what an amazing way of showing Nyneave’s power and lead us to think she has potential as the dragon reborn. There were some other clever drops ins. Moiraine struggling to keep Logain shielded, and then asking her if he is as strong as Egwene and Moiraine not being sure. That’s some elegannt and clever writing there to position Egwene.
> 
> Finally Logain. The icing on the cake. The Ghealdan siege scene was great. Moiraine’s conversation was tense and loaded. His break out dramatic and impressive - even his gentling was delivered exceptionally well. We even got a hint of the risk of burning out as Liandrin’s skin starts to glow from inside. This scene brought a lot of things that happened off screen in the books to the screen and I’m cool with that. They did a good job.
> 
> I think this episode shows how wrong anyone is who thought they spent the special effects budget in episode one!!!



I agree with all of that.  My only issue is that Logain in the books is nearly as strong as the Dragon Reborn, which makes him stronger than Nynaeve, not much weaker like Moiraine implies in her talk with him.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> just watched episode 4. Wow. Just wow.
> 
> Really liked the Way of the Leaf delivery and the lifestyle of the Travelling Folk. Let’s be honest it had some real punch for Perrin now after his wife. Whatever you think about that particular decision. The scene also set the spirituality of the wheel turning in a way that comforts and that people believe in deeply. All Ila’s lines are delivered with such sad, tranquility that she’s building up to some real pathos. Aram is also charismatic and likeable. 5 stars for their delivery and I think it’s setting up for some really impactful returns later on.
> 
> Matt and Rand have barely got to know Thom but I like him. The Owen story was delivered well and we’re getting repeated mentions now of men channelling, gentling and what happens afterwards. The fade scene was good, though I wish we could have enjoyed a little more fade. I think it’s quite clever how we are clearly meant to think Matt can channel and possibly be the Dragon Reborn. The sickness of Shador Lorgoth is maybe a bit more manifest than in the books but it’s creepy, powerful and has no love for the shadow… exactly as it should.
> 
> Lastly, Moiraine, Lan and Nyneave. I’m loving this. Sassy lines from Nyneave. Some subtle flirting between her and Lan. A window into the wider world of Aes Sedai, Warders, the Ajahs, shielding, linking and probably other things I can’t think of now. The warders bond shown through an Aes Sedai’s death. Finally what an amazing way of showing Nyneave’s power and lead us to think she has potential as the dragon reborn. There were some other clever drops ins. Moiraine struggling to keep Logain shielded, and then asking her if he is as strong as Egwene and Moiraine not being sure. That’s some elegannt and clever writing there to position Egwene.
> 
> Finally Logain. The icing on the cake. The Ghealdan siege scene was great. Moiraine’s conversation was tense and loaded. His break out dramatic and impressive - even his gentling was delivered exceptionally well. We even got a hint of the risk of burning out as Liandrin’s skin starts to glow from inside. This scene brought a lot of things that happened off screen in the books to the screen and I’m cool with that. They did a good job.
> 
> I think this episode shows how wrong anyone is who thought they spent the special effects budget in episode one!!!



I haven't watched any yet, waiting for some episodes to build up and an opportune time to watch. Buy I've  come to a good 0pace of seeing this show as it's own thing, and not worrying too much about book accuracy as long as it is a good show that uses the books as a overall guideline.


----------



## Zardnaar

The actor who plays Logain is the professor in the Money Heist on Netflix.

 The guy whose Aes Sedai got killed was in Vikings. Play spot that obscure actor.


----------



## HawaiiSteveO

Episode 4 best yet for sure. Cast is great, really enjoying all the different looks, accents etc it just works, gives it its own ‘feel’ in a great way .


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Good episode. Took a lot of key information and put it together in a scene that doesn't happen in the books, but left the series stronger for it.

Hope they keep this up.


----------



## Maxperson

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Good episode. Took a lot of key information and put it together in a scene that doesn't happen in the books, but left the series stronger for it.
> 
> Hope they keep this up.



Yeah.  The scene didn't happen, but all that information did.  They repurposed the info into a great way to shorten things for a series.  Kept the feel of the books.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Zardnaar said:


> The actor who plays Logain is the professor in the Money Heist on Netflix.
> 
> The guy whose Aes Sedai got killed was in Vikings. Play spot that obscure actor.



Getting Alvaro Morte to play Logain was a real casting coup. He slid into the role in an amazing way, to the point that I can't imagine anybody but him as Logain now.


----------



## Zardnaar

Demetrios1453 said:


> Getting Alvaro Morte to play Logain was a real casting coup. He slid into the role in an amazing way, to the point that I can't imagine anybody but him as Logain now.




 I'm so had with names. He's a good actor loved him in Money Heist even with dubbed over voices.


----------



## Maxperson

Demetrios1453 said:


> Getting Alvaro Morte to play Logain was a real casting coup. He slid into the role in an amazing way, to the point that I can't imagine anybody but him as Logain now.



I didn't care for the first scene with him when he was running from the Liandrin and the other reds.  I've since changed my mind about him.  He's doing a good job.


----------



## TheSword

Maxperson said:


> I didn't care for the first scene with him when he was running from the Liandrin and the other reds.  I've since changed my mind about him.  He's doing a good job.



That first scene wasn’t Logain, it was another male chaneler. That guy was the right age, whereas Lan remarks that Logain was too old. They also have different madnesses, and different clothes. Logain is wearing the same stuff he was in the opening to episode 4. The guy in the opening to episode one was wearing leathers.

Can I also say the madness is being handled really well!. A man hallucinating his dead brother and Logain hearing the voices of dead channellers giving him advice. They seem to go down the full blown schizophrenia route in different variations. We could see some very powerful stuff here as Rand starts channelling.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

TheSword said:


> Can I also say the madness is being handled really well!. A man hallucinating his dead brother and Logain hearing the voices of dead channellers giving him advice. They seem to go down the full blown schizophrenia route in different variations. We could see some very powerful stuff here as Rand starts channelling.



I'm looking forward to meeting Lews Therin.


----------



## MGibster

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> I'm looking forward to meeting Lews Therin.



I win again, Lews Therin.


----------



## Parmandur

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> I'm looking forward to meeting Lews Therin.



It is going to take some real art to handle that well.


----------



## Maxperson

I like how they are handling the taint in the one power.  We see the darkness mixed in with the light when men use it.  I'm also wondering if that light we see weaving about is only visible to other one power users of the same gender.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Maxperson said:


> I like how they are handling the taint in the one power.  We see the darkness mixed in with the light when men use it.  I'm also wondering if that light we see weaving about is only visible to other one power users of the same gender.



One of the characters in Ep 4 makes a comment about not being able to see the other gender's weaves.



MGibster said:


> I win again, Lews Therin.



Nyah, Shaitan, it was I, the Dragon, all along!


----------



## Maxperson

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> One of the characters in Ep 4 makes a comment about not being able to see the other gender's weaves.



Yeah.  I'm wondering, though, if that light we see is the weave or if it's a byproduct of the magic being done, and we aren't really seeing the weave.  Remember, the weaves were the various elements and spirit all woven together in specific ways, not simply streamers of light.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  I'm wondering, though, if that light we see is the weave or if it's a byproduct of the magic being done, and we aren't really seeing the weave.  Remember, the weaves were the various elements and spirit all woven together in specific ways, not simply streamers of light.



Dunno ... I've been assuming it's the weaves and we can't tell what elements they are yet (some color-coding for air, water, etc would be nice). Maybe we'll learn more as the female characters get to Tar Valon and become novices.


----------



## Zardnaar

Special effects are movie quality. GoT and Mandalorian looked good but they're not at this level. 

  Can't remember if they gestured in the books or not.


----------



## Maxperson

Zardnaar said:


> Special effects are movie quality. GoT and Mandalorian looked good but they're not at this level.
> 
> Can't remember if they gestured in the books or not.



Some did and some didn't.  If you learned a gesture as part of the weave, you had often couldn't unlearn it and used it forever.  So some women had to gesture as they "threw" balls of fire.  Others did not.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> Some did and some didn't.  If you learned a gesture as part of the weave, you had often couldn't unlearn it and used it forever.  So some women had to gesture as they "threw" balls of fire.  Others did not.



IIRC, the 3E Wheel of Time RPG that WotC put out based on D&D rules did a really good job with modeling the Channeling, adapting the rules to the Setting. They did interesting stuff with mechanics like Components and Spell Slots.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> IIRC, the 3E Wheel of Time RPG that WotC put out based on D&D rules did a really good job with modeling the Channeling, adapting the rules to the Setting. They did interesting stuff with mechanics like Components and Spell Slots.



I bought it!  Never played it, though.  My group isn't into the series like I am.


----------



## Zaukrie

Episode four was great television.


----------



## Zardnaar

Zaukrie said:


> Episode four was great television.




 It was. Show had me episode one. Bit more interesting than Foundation and anything's that's not The Mandalorian.


----------



## Zaukrie

Zardnaar said:


> It was. Show had me episode one. Bit more interesting than Foundation and anything's that's not The Mandalorian.



Foundation is disappointing.... But that's another thread


----------



## Zardnaar

Zaukrie said:


> Foundation is disappointing.... But that's another thread




 I didn't have any high expectations. Half of the show was good.


----------



## Zaukrie

Zardnaar said:


> I didn't have any high expectations. Half of the show was good.



The empire parts are great......


----------



## Zardnaar

Zaukrie said:


> The empire parts are great......




 Yup. I stand by my comment. 

WoT exceeded expectations. They weren't that high based on source material. Already have Amazon so it's only the time required to watch it.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I bought it!  Never played it, though.  My group isn't into the series like I am.



I have played it, back in College! Oddly enough, the Channeling ended up being more like latter 5E Neo-Vancian spellcasting, but with the number of Slots derived from Ability scores rather than Class.


----------



## RobJN

Not nearly enough arm-crossing. Or braid-tugging.


----------



## TheSword

RobJN said:


> Not nearly enough arm-crossing. Or braid-tugging.



Now the braids get tugged by the power of their own accord!

I think the actress playing Nyneave has it down to a tee. I wouldn’t cross her. There’s no doubt she’s a scrapper and happy to get stuck in. The budding relationship with Lan is also really convincing. They have chemistry. There’s also something about the way she speaks that brooks no nonsense. It reminds me of Lena Hedley (Cersei, from Game of Thrones)


----------



## RobJN

TheSword said:


> Now the braids get tugged by the power of their own accord!
> 
> I think the actress playing Nyneave has it down to a tee. I wouldn’t cross her. There’s no doubt she’s a scrapper and happy to get stuck in. The budding relationship with Lan is also really convincing. They have chemistry. There’s also something about the way she speaks that brooks no nonsense. It reminds me of Lena Hedley (Cersei, from Game of Thrones)



The scene between Moiraine and Nyneave at the pool, in the first episode was really well done. Lines drawn, and all that.


----------



## Dioltach

Just gave myself a pat on the back for recognising the castle at the start of the episode. (Segovia, in case anyone's interested. There's also a Roman aquaduct in the centre of the town, and it's at the foot of a mountain range that offers some of the most enjoyable hiking in Spain.)


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  I'm wondering, though, if that light we see is the weave or if it's a byproduct of the magic being done, and we aren't really seeing the weave.  Remember, the weaves were the various elements and spirit all woven together in specific ways, not simply streamers of light.



That much light only happened in Nyneave's case, and she's an untrained wilder who was presumably creating extraneous light by accident.


----------



## TheSword

Demetrios1453 said:


> That much light only happened in Nyneave's case, and she's an untrained wilder who was presumably creating extraneous light by accident.



Yeah, to be fair, if it was weaves or holding Saidar then Logain shouldn’t be able to see it. I suspect that might have been a case of the rule of cool!


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

RobJN said:


> Not nearly enough arm-crossing. Or braid-tugging.



Give it time; we don't have a critical mass of Aes Sedai yet.


----------



## wicked cool

enjoyed episode 4. Good to see one the vikings cast join the show.


----------



## TwoSix

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> I'm looking forward to meeting Lews Therin.



Logain talking about "hearing the voices of hundreds of Dragons who came before him" (or something to that effect) was good foreshadowing for this.



Maxperson said:


> I agree with all of that.  My only issue is that Logain in the books is nearly as strong as the Dragon Reborn, which makes him stronger than Nynaeve, not much weaker like Moiraine implies in her talk with him.



I'm pretty sure if there's anything that's not going to survive the transition, it's relative strength of characters in the One Power.  They're not going to have "Nynaeve is the strongest female channeler currently living, outside the Forsaken" and "Nynaeve is also outclassed by 10 other dudes you don't know or have a passing familiarity with".  There's just no way they're going to use some of the book tropes like "Men are generally stronger in the One Power, but women are better at cooperating and linking."  I mean, we're 4 episodes in and I don't think they've used the words saidar and saidin yet.


----------



## Maxperson

TwoSix said:


> Logain talking about "hearing the voices of hundreds of Dragons who came before him" (or something to that effect) was good foreshadowing for this.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure if there's anything that's not going to survive the transition, it's relative strength of characters in the One Power.  They're not going to have "Nynaeve is the strongest female channeler currently living, outside the Forsaken" and "Nynaeve is also outclassed by 10 other dudes you don't know or have a passing familiarity with".  There's just no way they're going to use some of the book tropes like "Men are generally stronger in the One Power, but women are better at cooperating and linking."  I mean, we're 4 episodes in and I don't think they've used the words saidar and saidin yet.



I don't care if they dial up the power of women to make things more equal in that regard.  Logain is still almost as strong as The Dragon Reborn and there was a reason for that.  It's his drop in power that I'm objecting to.


----------



## TwoSix

Maxperson said:


> I don't care if they dial up the power of women to make things more equal in that regard.  Logain is still almost as strong as The Dragon Reborn and there was a reason for that.  It's his drop in power that I'm objecting to.



Well, they do want to make Nynaeve look like a real contender for Dragon Reborn, so her outclassing Logain  (who is established as being much more powerful than the any of the other Aes Sedai present) makes sense with that narrative constraint in place.  

And I'm reasonably sure Logain's importance, like a ton of the secondary characters, is going to be truncated.  He's here to be an object lesson on the madness of male channeling, the horror of gentling/stilling, and the political upheaval a false Dragon can cause.  I don't think he's going to crop up to be an important character in Season 4 and 5 like how he kept being utilized in the latter books.


----------



## Parmandur

TwoSix said:


> I don't think he's going to crop up to be an important character in Season 4 and 5 like how he kept being utilized in the latter books.



On the contrary, I believe they enhanced his Season 1 presence precisely because he is going to be more of a consistently recurring character than in the books.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> On the contrary, I believe they enhanced his Season 1 presence precisely because he is going to be more of a consistently recurring character than in the books.



I can see it going in the direction of either one of those arguments.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I can see it going in the direction of either one of those arguments.



Time will tell! 

I know that Elayne was cut from this Season  (she's introduced in Season 2) because they didn't want to cast again cast memeber for a 7 minute cameo in the first season, so they are shifting things around a fair bit.


----------



## Zaukrie

Bye thread! That's the last thread I've tried to participate in without talking about stuff that hasn't happened in the show yet. I'll just stick to my friends.


----------



## TwoSix

Maxperson said:


> I can see it going in the direction of either one of those arguments.



Bold strategy, Cotton.


----------



## Lidgar

The foreshadowing Logain is giving with his army is important and relevant to what the real Dragon will face once he/she is proclaimed (trying to avoid too many spoilers here).


----------



## Maxperson

TwoSix said:


> Bold strategy, Cotton.



I can't help it!  Both are good, solid arguments.


----------



## TwoSix

Parmandur said:


> On the contrary, I believe they enhanced his Season 1 presence precisely because he is going to be more of a consistently recurring character than in the books.



Fair.  I mean, a lot of it will come down to casting and actor availability, too.  

I'm just expecting a good amount of the secondary roles to get compressed into a fewer, stronger characters.  Like Verin and Cadsuane in the "expository Aes Sedai" role.  Or Liandrin and Elaida in the "treacherous Red Ajah involved in politics" spot.


----------



## Parmandur

TwoSix said:


> Fair.  I mean, a lot of it will come down to casting and actor availability, too.
> 
> I'm just expecting a good amount of the secondary roles to get compressed into a fewer, stronger characters.  Like Verin and Cadsuane in the "expository Aes Sedai" role.  Or Liandrin and Elaida in the "treacherous Red Ajah involved in politics" spot.



Some compression is likely, but those pairings do not seem terribly plausible.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Some compression is likely, but those pairings do not seem terribly plausible.



I agree.  Verin and Cadsuane have very different roles, as do Elaida and Liandrin.  And beyond those roles, each of those pairs has a major difference that can't readily be reconciled.


----------



## Lidgar

Haven’t seen this mentioned yet. Any guesses on the shadows speaking to Logain in the first scene with the King? I’m assuming it’s two of the foresaken, but it’s been a while since I read the books. Was thinking Ishmael and the other other one that works from the shadows (forgot her name).


----------



## TwoSix

Maxperson said:


> I agree.  Verin and Cadsuane have very different roles, as do Elaida and Liandrin.  And beyond those roles, each of those pairs has a major difference that can't readily be reconciled.



Guess we'll see!  I imagine a lot of speculation among the non-book reading audience is going to be "Guess the Darkfriend."  

Personally, I think they'll have to cut down a lot of arcs to make the books fit into TV.  I'm not expecting to see the Seanchan make it to the show, for example.


----------



## Parmandur

Lidgar said:


> Haven’t seen this mentioned yet. Any guesses on the shadows speaking to Logain in the first scene with the King? I’m assuming it’s two of the foresaken, but it’s been a while since I read the books. Was thinking Ishmael and the other other one that works from the shadows (forgot her name).



Probably not that, since Logaine doesn't roll that way.


----------



## Maxperson

Lidgar said:


> Haven’t seen this mentioned yet. Any guesses on the shadows speaking to Logain in the first scene with the King? I’m assuming it’s two of the foresaken, but it’s been a while since I read the books. Was thinking Ishmael and the other other one that works from the shadows (forgot her name).



I just think it's the madness.


----------



## Parmandur

TwoSix said:


> Guess we'll see!  I imagine a lot of speculation among the non-book reading audience is going to be "Guess the Darkfriend."
> 
> Personally, I think they'll have to cut down a lot of arcs to make the books fit into TV.  I'm not expecting to see the Seanchan make it to the show, for example.



I expect quite a bit of truncation to fit 14 novels into 8 seasons, but I expect Season 2 to be largely about the Seanchan. They are too integral to the plot to cut out.


----------



## Maxperson

TwoSix said:


> Guess we'll see!  I imagine a lot of speculation among the non-book reading audience is going to be "Guess the Darkfriend."
> 
> Personally, I think they'll have to cut down a lot of arcs to make the books fit into TV.  I'm not expecting to see the Seanchan make it to the show, for example.



I think they will, but perhaps not in the same way, and not as quickly as they appeared in the books.  Matt's story is very dependent on them.


----------



## Parmandur

TwoSix said:


> Guess we'll see!  I imagine a lot of speculation among the non-book reading audience is going to be "Guess the Darkfriend."
> 
> Personally, I think they'll have to cut down a lot of arcs to make the books fit into TV.  I'm not expecting to see the Seanchan make it to the show, for example.



What I really expect to see truncated is the Shaido plotline.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> I think they will, but perhaps not in the same way, and not as quickly as they appeared in the books. Matt's story is very dependent on them.



The actor playing Perrin already accidentally leaked that we'll be seeing the Seanchan _this season_. Given that there's a "girl on western shore" in the cast list for Episode 8, everyone is assuming we'll see that character seeing the Seanchan fleet arriving as the season ending cliffhanger...


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> I agree. Verin and Cadsuane have very different roles, as do Elaida and Liandrin. And beyond those roles, each of those pairs has a major difference that can't readily be reconciled.



Liandrin would be much better merged with Galina, as the former's story is winding down when the latter appears.


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> The actor playing Perrin already accidentally leaked that we'll be seeing the Seanchan _this season_. Given that there's a "girl on western shore" in the cast list for Episode 8, everyone is assuming we'll see that character seeing the Seanchan fleet arriving as the season ending cliffhanger...



Nice.

Given what they get through in this season, getting through The Great Hunt and The Dragon Reborn in Season 2 is doable. Averaging 2-3 novels a Season seems achievable for much of the middle of the series.


----------



## Maxperson

Demetrios1453 said:


> The actor playing Perrin already accidentally leaked that we'll be seeing the Seanchan _this season_. Given that there's a "girl on western shore" in the cast list for Episode 8, everyone is assuming we'll see that character seeing the Seanchan fleet arriving as the season ending cliffhanger...



Well, okay then! I guess that's pretty strong evidence that they will be arriving soon.


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> Liandrin would be much better merged with Galina, as the former's story is winding down when the latter appears.



Now that would make sense.


----------



## TheSword

Zaukrie said:


> Bye thread! That's the last thread I've tried to participate in without talking about stuff that hasn't happened in the show yet. I'll just stick to my friends.



To be fair. The thread does state that it contains spoilers. There’s another thread for non-spoilerific content if you haven’t read the books and don’t want to discuss how the show relates to the source material.


----------



## TwoSix

Parmandur said:


> Nice.
> 
> Given what they get through in this season, getting through The Great Hunt and The Dragon Reborn in Season 2 is doable. Averaging 2-3 novels a Season seems achievable for much of the middle of the series.



And we can probably do books 7-10 in like 3 episodes.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> What I really expect to see truncated is the Shaido plotline.



I missed this earlier.  I agree that they will cut that short.  A whole lot of the shaido wandering around just plain doesn't need to happen.  They may just shorten it to the immediate troubles when the Dragon first goes to the Three-Fold land.


----------



## Maxperson

TwoSix said:


> And we can probably do books 7-10 in like 3 episodes.



A whole, whole, WHOLE lot of stuff happens in books 7-9 that is important, but really doesn't move the plot forward.  If they're doing 2 books a season, they could do those 3 in one season.  Two of those books are the exact same time period, but with different characters.  Those could be merged easily.


----------



## TwoSix

Maxperson said:


> A whole, whole, WHOLE lot of stuff happens in books 7-9 that is important, but really doesn't move the plot forward.  If they're doing 2 books a season, they could do those 3 in one season.  Two of those books are the exact same time period, but with different characters.  Those could be merged easily.



I'll take your word for it.  I never had the heart to re-read books 7-11, and it's been a long time.


----------



## TheSword

TwoSix said:


> I'll take your word for it.  I never had the heart to re-read books 7-11, and it's been a long time.



The end of 9 and 10 are flipping awesome. You’re missing out.


----------



## Maxperson

TwoSix said:


> I'll take your word for it.  I never had the heart to re-read books 7-11, and it's been a long time.



I'm pretty sure that it's in book 10 that the story really picks back up. If I'm wrong, then it happens in 11.  Books 7-9, though, are a slog to get through, but stuff does happen.


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> The end of 9 and 10 are flipping awesome. You’re missing out.



It's like one chapter or something at the end of 9.  It was really good, but not enough for me to change my mind about that book as a whole.


----------



## TheSword

Maxperson said:


> It's like one chapter or something at the end of 9.  It was really good, but not enough for me to change my mind about that book as a whole.



I don’t know, I liked the whole section in Far Madding as well and Matt trying to escape Ebou Dar with Tuon.

Though I’ve realized I must have a high tolerance because I was never really affected by the middle books the way some people are


----------



## TwoSix

TheSword said:


> The end of 9 and 10 are flipping awesome. You’re missing out.



The end of 9 (the cleansing) I agree is really good.  It's my favorite part of that portion of the series, but on the whole I find most of the back half of the series to be kind of frustrating, with a few exceptions.  Knife of Dreams is on the whole much better than books 7-10, and The Gathering Storm is one of my favorite books in the series.


----------



## Parmandur

TwoSix said:


> And we can probably do books 7-10 in like 3 episodes.



Well, Crossroads of Twighlight can probably be one episode.  A lot does happen in those books, but those events are ripe for condensing and rearranging artfully.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I missed this earlier.  I agree that they will cut that short.  A whole lot of the shaido wandering around just plain doesn't need to happen.  They may just shorten it to the immediate troubles when the Dragon first goes to the Three-Fold land.



Yeah, that's what I'd do.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Parmandur said:


> Nice.
> 
> Given what they get through in this season, getting through The Great Hunt and The Dragon Reborn in Season 2 is doable. Averaging 2-3 novels a Season seems achievable for much of the middle of the series.



I'm re-reading TGH right now (having re-read TEotW on the run up to the premiere), and I'm pretty much at the halfway point, and the story has only just now gotten to Cairhien. Given that a lot if the Aes Sedai stuff there will be moved to Season 1, it could easily be done in 1 or 1.5 epsodes. The only real thing of importance is meeting up with a certain Forsaken in that time...


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> I don’t know, I liked the whole section in Far Madding as well and Matt trying to escape Ebou Dar with Tuon.
> 
> Though I’ve realized I must have a high tolerance because I was never really affected by the middle books the way some people are



It wasn't that it was bad writing.  It's that it was multiple thousands of pages in which the plot went almost nowhere.  I still re-read those books when I reread the series, so it's not like they're so bad as to make them unreadable to me.  I'd just have preferred more plot movement.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I'm pretty sure that it's in book 10 that the story really picks back up. If I'm wrong, then it happens in 11.  Books 7-9, though, are a slog to get through, but stuff does happen.



Plot slows down in 6 (Lord of Chaos) and picks up in 11 (Knife of Dreams). 10 is entirely a reaction to the climax of 9, like seriously the 24 hours afterwards.

I still like it all, but it can be condensed in adaptation without doing violence to the story.


----------



## Maxperson

TwoSix said:


> The end of 9 (the cleansing) I agree is really good.  It's my favorite part of that portion of the series, but on the whole I find most of the back half of the series to be kind of frustrating, with a few exceptions.  Knife of Dreams is on the whole much better than books 7-10, and The Gathering Storm is one of my favorite books in the series.



I personally really enjoyed all of the books from 10 on.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> I don’t know, I liked the whole section in Far Madding as well and Matt trying to escape Ebou Dar with Tuon.
> 
> Though I’ve realized I must have a high tolerance because I was never really affected by the middle books the way some people are



Yeah, I know that I have a high tolerance because I just enjoy reading Jordan's writing, plot be damned. But there are organizations izational issues that the show can tighten up and leave things intact.


----------



## Mordhau

Just cut most of the Aes Sedai politics.  There's about 4 books worth of content right there.


----------



## TwoSix

Maxperson said:


> I personally really enjoyed all of the books from 10 on.



Personally, I found 10 to be the nadir of the series.  I thought 11 picked up quite a bit, and I liked the three Sanderson books.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Mordhau said:


> Just cut most of the Aes Sedai politics. There's about 4 books worth of content right there.



No way that will happen. They're setting up Tower politics _early_ after all! Plus the showrunner states his favorite part of the books involves Tower politics (concerning Egwene in the Tower in the later books to be precise)...


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> No way that will happen. They're setting up Tower politics _early_ after all! Plus the showrunner states his favorite part of the books involves Tower politics (concerning Egwene in the Tower in the later books to be precise)...



Yeah, that's also one of the best parts of the series, very well drawn out.

However, I think the plot lines there could be expedited without major sacrifices.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Parmandur said:


> Yeah, that's also one of the best parts of the series, very well drawn out.
> 
> However, I think the plot lines there could be expedited without major sacrifices.



Also cut down Elayne's struggles to hold the throne of Andor. No need to cut it entirely, just cut it down a lot lol. And massively shorten the whole Faile kidnapping plotline.


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> Also cut down Elayne's struggles to hold the throne of Andor. No need to cut it entirely, just cut it down a lot lol. And massively shorten the whole Faile kidnapping plotline.



Honestly, most of the cutting wouldn't even need to be plot elements: cutting down description and travelog elements, and truncating meetings, would go a long way.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Mordhau said:


> Just cut most of the Aes Sedai politics.  There's about 4 books worth of content right there.



Oh but think of the lost opportunities for skirt smoothing, braid tugging, and sniffing contemptuously!


----------



## Mordhau

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Oh but think of the lost opportunities for skirt smoothing, braid tugging, and sniffing contemptuously!



Not to mention endless drinking of mint tea and spanking.


----------



## hawkeyefan

The weather and the bowl of winds. They could ditch that entirely and take the few cool parts and move them to other storylines.


----------



## Parmandur

hawkeyefan said:


> The weather and the bowl of winds. They could ditch that entirely and take the few cool parts and move them to other storylines.



I thought of that: bringing in the Windfinders and the Kin probably needs to happen sometime, but that plot can be truncated fairly heavily for the show, I would agree.


----------



## Maxperson

hawkeyefan said:


> The weather and the bowl of winds. They could ditch that entirely and take the few cool parts and move them to other storylines.



I don't think that they should ditch those.  They should just greatly shorten the acquisition and use of the bowl.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I don't think that they should ditch those.  They should just greatly shorten the acquisition and use of the bowl.



That's how I feel about it: seems like it could be an episode plot, rather than what we got in A Crown of Swords (though I personally like the slow and Byzantine octopus of a plot, it isn't really binging material?).


----------



## hawkeyefan

Maxperson said:


> I don't think that they should ditch those.  They should just greatly shorten the acquisition and use of the bowl.




They definitely have to shorten it, at the very least.

I mention it mostly because it’s one of the few long storylines that takes a significant amount of space but which isn’t “necessary”.

I use quotes because they could alter just about anything to make it less required for later events. But that one doesn’t even really need to be altered all that much. It can just be removed, and all the bits with the girls and Moghedien and all that can just take place as part of other storylines.

It’s just (to my mind) a significant amount of time that can be removed without much impact, and it’d save space for more vital things that ai don’t want to see shortened.


----------



## Maxperson

hawkeyefan said:


> They definitely have to shorten it, at the very least.
> 
> I mention it mostly because it’s one of the few long storylines that takes a significant amount of space but which isn’t “necessary”.
> 
> I use quotes because they could alter just about anything to make it less required for later events. But that one doesn’t even really need to be altered all that much. It can just be removed, and all the bits with the girls and Moghedien and all that can just take place as part of other storylines.
> 
> It’s just (to my mind) a significant amount of time that can be removed without much impact, and it’d save space for more vital things that ai don’t want to see shortened.



Yeah.  My feeling is that it's important to show the Dark One's influence growing stronger(the weather) and then that he isn't all powerful and can be overcome(use of the bowl).  I think those are important plot points, but as @Parmandur said, it could be reduced to a single episode, or multiple episodes of the weather growing worse in the background of those episode stories and a single episode of learning about, finding and using the bowl.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  My feeling is that it's important to show the Dark One's influence growing stronger(the weather) and then that he isn't all powerful and can be overcome(use of the bowl).  I think those are important plot points, but as @Parmandur said, it could be reduced to a single episode, or multiple episodes of the weather growing worse in the background of those episode stories and a single episode of learning about, finding and using the bowl.



I have a lot of confidence that books 6-10 can be shortened considerably without sacrificing anything super-important to the overall arce of the series, even though I enjoyed them considerably.


----------



## hawkeyefan

I remember the use of the bowl and the cleansing to be somewhat similar. Am I misremembering?


----------



## Parmandur

hawkeyefan said:


> I remember the use of the bowl and the cleansing to be somewhat similar. Am I misremembering?



If by "similar" you mean the direct inspiration for Nyneave's plan for the Cleansing? Then sure.


----------



## Parmandur

My perspective is that there aren't many expendable _plot points_, but the _plot lines_ between them can easily be made more direct.


----------



## hawkeyefan

Parmandur said:


> If by "similar" you mean the direct inspiration for Nyneave's plan for the Cleansing? Then sure.




Partially, yes. But like redundant to an extent. That they're similar enough events to be a bit repetitive. Some of the climaxes in the books suffer from that a bit.


----------



## Parmandur

hawkeyefan said:


> Partially, yes. But like redundant to an extent. That they're similar enough events to be a bit repetitive. Some of the climaxes in the books suffer from that a bit.



Not that similar, no: I think that it can be truncated, but elimination would be more difficult.


----------



## Zaukrie

TheSword said:


> To be fair. The thread does state that it contains spoilers. There’s another thread for non-spoilerific content if you haven’t read the books and don’t want to discuss how the show relates to the source material.



Spoilers about the show, what's been in the show, is totally different. But. Whatever. I'm out. I'd like to discuss the show.


----------



## Parmandur

Zaukrie said:


> Spoilers about the show, what's been in the show, is totally different. But. Whatever. I'm out. I'd like to discuss the show.



Yeah, sorry about, that genie got out of the bottle pretty early on. Maybe the thread title should be adjusted to "book spoilers"?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

I have seen Agatha Christie adaptations where they have changed the murderer, just to keep people who know the book guessing. Maybe they will do that here?


----------



## Demetrios1453

Paul Farquhar said:


> I have seen Agatha Christie adaptations where they have changed the murderer, just to keep people who know the book guessing. Maybe they will do that here?



The showrunner has already said that book readers would already know who the Dragon Reborn will be in the series. The show is just presenting more possibilities for the uninitiated...


----------



## FrogReaver

Maxperson said:


> The second episode is better than the first and the third better than the second.  I'm going to keep going, but I was definitely not happy with the first half of episode 1.



I liked episode 1 the best.


----------



## Maxperson

FrogReaver said:


> I liked episode 1 the best.



So far I've found each episode better than the last.  Which is a good thing.


----------



## Parmandur

Paul Farquhar said:


> I have seen Agatha Christie adaptations where they have changed the murderer, just to keep people who know the book guessing. Maybe they will do that here?



Not likely, no, though the non-book fan "Power Rangers Theory" of the Dragon Reborn isn't without merit even going by the books.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> So far I've found each episode better than the last.  Which is a good thing.



Hard to ask for more from a TV show, honestly.


----------



## Herschel

The most recent episode was the best yet. The first was okay, didn't care for the second, the third was pretty good and this one was probably the hook.


----------



## Zardnaar

I kinda liked it from the get go. First episodes are hard so yeah allow for that.


----------



## Maxperson

I really liked the latest episode, but I have to say that those graves at the beginning were pretty darn shallow.


----------



## Zardnaar

Maxperson said:


> I really liked the latest episode, but I have to say that those graves at the beginning were pretty darn shallow.




Realistic frozen ground.


----------



## Maxperson

Zardnaar said:


> Realistic frozen ground.



Sure, but they have the one power, which explains how they were dug to even that depths AND in such perfect rectangles AND in such a perfect pattern.  They could have dug them deeper with the power.


----------



## Zardnaar

Maxperson said:


> Sure, but they have the one power, which explains how they were dug to even that depths AND in such perfect rectangles AND in such a perfect pattern.  They could have dug them deeper with the power.




 Didn't think of that. Possible but not required though.


----------



## Maxperson

Zardnaar said:


> Didn't think of that. Possible but not required though.



Not required, but far more likely than not.  They were trying to get Logain to the tower as quickly as possible, and Logain's followers were still in the area.  They wouldn't spend the many hours necessary to dig those shallow graves in frozen ground when they have the one power to do it very quickly.


----------



## TheSword

I thought they placed stones on people to cover the grave, like a cairn? At least it looked that way when Matt was burying the Aiel in episode 3. Maybe they do that for all graves.

I found this one a bit slow. The bits with Perrin and Egwene were powerful but the white tower stuff seemed to drag. A lot of angst about a warder. Not sure I like the change from suicidal anger to just suicide… doesn’t feel very warder like.

The change to Tar Valon makes sense I guess. Loial and Matt’s illness was good.


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> I thought they placed stones on people to cover the grave, like a cairn? At least it looked that way when Matt was burying the Aiel in episode 3. Maybe they do that for all graves.
> 
> I found this one a bit slow. The bits with Perrin and Egwene were powerful but the white tower stuff seemed to drag. A lot of angst about a warder. Not sure I like the change from suicidal anger to just suicide… doesn’t feel very warder like.
> 
> The change to Tar Valon makes sense I guess. Loial and Matt’s illness was good.



When they pulled back the camera, we saw them all still lying there covered in blankets/sheets and nobody around.


----------



## HawaiiSteveO

Great episode (5), characters/actors are gelling nicely. Didn't notice until now that reds don't have warders.
Liandrin & Nynnaeve scene... wow sharp writing and performances:
"Because you hate men."
"Is that a question or a statement? Some of my red sisters perhaps. Women hold the one power, but men still control much of this world, and they are rarely kind to little girls who show a spark of being greater than they are."


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> II found this one a bit slow. The bits with Perrin and Egwene were powerful but the white tower stuff seemed to drag. A lot of angst about a warder. Not sure I like the change from suicidal anger to just suicide… doesn’t feel very warder like.



The suicidal anger was the warders throwing themselves into battle after their Aes Sedai die, which this warder did. He just survived.  Absent an enemy to throw himself against, moving on to just suicide seems like a natural progression.  Remember, this was a supernatural effect that caused him to basically swallow her death and hold it inside of him.  Even a warder could/would give in to that.


----------



## TheSword

Maxperson said:


> The suicidal anger was the warders throwing themselves into battle after their Aes Sedai die, which this warder did. He just survived.  Absent an enemy to throw himself against, moving on to just suicide seems like a natural progression.  Remember, this was a supernatural effect that caused him to basically swallow her death and hold it inside of him.  Even a warder could/would give in to that.



I understand. I’m just not sure what it added, rather than him just throw himself into battle. The writers instead chose a protracted, drawn out conclusion to it. Not sure when clearly dozens of people died based on the graves at the start Steppans funeral led to such an exaggerated outpouring of grief. It added very little to my mind.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Anyone else have fun pausing when they showed the Forsaken figurines and try to figure out which was which?


----------



## Demetrios1453

TheSword said:


> I understand. I’m just not sure what it added, rather than him just throw himself into battle. The writers instead chose a protracted, drawn out conclusion to it. Not sure when clearly dozens of people died based on the graves at the start Steppans funeral led to such an exaggerated outpouring of grief. It added very little to my mind.



I mean, I can see that they are setting up and foreshadowing certain future events for Lan and Moiraine, but, yes, I agree it went on a bit too much. They should have at least shortened it up enough to actually give us the scene of Loial meeting Nynaeve in the Tower gardens.


----------



## Ovinomancer

payn said:


> For y'all book reading folks, was the barmaid some type of darkling shapeshifter? Or was she just a regular person that worships the dark ones in secret and gets visions and stuff?



Darkfriends are an interesting lot in the books.  For a long time, they were a secret cabal devoted to the Dark One (who they call the Great Lord of the Dark but who is a Satan stand-in) and organized into a cross between a cult and a gang.  As the events of the book begin to unfold, however, the prison that has held the Dark One away from the world is weakening, and some of his very powerful lieutenants have gotten out or are able to reach into the world again (the Dark One and his Forsaken (the lieutenants) were sealed away by the last Dragon).  The darkfriends in the books are routinely people who thought they were getting in with a club of people to get ahead in the world but are finding out that their oaths have serious teeth now that the Forsaken are loose again.  In the books, the darkfriends after Rand and Co are directed by their own leaders and the Myrdraal, not driven by dreams.  However, as more Forsaken are loosed, many have abilities to affect the dreams and even utilize an entire dreamworld and this becomes more common.  It appears they smashed this into the earlier episodes.

Personally, I found the darkfriend to be pretty terrible, especially the part where she ran after them through the streets waving a sword and no a single person said boo.  That the darkfriend just happened to be skilled with the sword Rand brought was a bit far for me.   I stopped at episode 3, which apparently I felt was atrocious and others seem to like.  It was plodding, the character development was weirdly paced and not clean, and the horror show they turned the Tinkers into was just a bridge too far.  I mean, why?  Why naughty word with the Tinkers?  It strongly undercuts a large section of story for the Aiel and just makes them look pathetic.  And, honestly, in story terms, if you're looking for things to cut I struggle with including the Tinkers in that form but cutting Elias for Perrin's story development.


----------



## payn

Whats up with the white cloak way of light faction? I mean, its clear they dont like the magic using women, at all. Though, where does their territory exist? I mean, the tower is where the mage women live right? The white cloaks can just camp outside the city?


----------



## Ovinomancer

payn said:


> Whats up with the white cloak way of light faction? I mean, its clear they dont like the magic using women, at all. Though, where does their territory exist? I mean, the tower is where the mage women live right? The white cloaks can just camp outside the city?



According to the books, Whitecloaks are based in the kingdom of Amadicia, where they rule in all but name. The Children, however, come from everywhere and are sent everywhere.  In the books, when the Whitecloaks are camped outside of Tar Valon at this point in the story, they're not breaking any laws and are just, in general, being nuisances.  The way they operate is to encourage others to name people darkfriend so the Children have cause to hang/burn/kill them.  There's little protection under law for citizens in any country, and being a darkfriend is a capital offense everywhere, so the Children are able to operate as essentially mostly-legal vigilantes.  Plus, they're capable soliders, well drilled, trained, and equipped.  So, as long as they're staying within the lines, most countries will not deal with the problems of evicting the Children.  Of course, if the Children think they can get away with it, they'd gladly kill some more Tar Valon witches and hide the bodies.

What's missed in the moustache twirling villainy of the show Children is that many normal people have a positive view of the Children.  They root out dangerous criminals, and preach a good line.  Its why they have so many numbers because they can recruit well anywhere they go.  So there would be substantial political capital spent in evicting or barring the Children.  Plus, doing so means that the Children are almost guaranteed to name that ruler darkfriend or say that they are aiding darkfriends.  Why else turn from the Children of the Light?  This increases the double-edged sword for most rulers.  That and the Children, being a militant organization, can actually cause significant problems if a force is massed and sent back into the country to root out that corruption.  They are an army.

Tar Valon has the additional problem of everyone hating them for the most part.  Aes Sedai are not well liked by most.  The Children do a lot of encouraging the negative stereotypes but it's not just them and the Aes Sedai themselves have earned a decent bit of the reputation honestly.  If Tar Valon tries to exile the Children for anything less than an obvious bad act, then it would give the Children enough cover with the other nations to mount a full on siege of the Tower.  

Not sure how much of this translates to the show, though.  I stopped on ep 3.  The depiction of the Children and the general level of storytelling (mostly Tell don't Show and treating the audience as if they're largely incapable of understanding nuance or complicated concepts) would lead me to believe they don't at all and it's pretty hard to reconcile how the moustache twirlers could possibly be allowed to camp inside such a powerful nation as Tar Valon.


----------



## Mercurius

After episode 5, some similar thoughts to others. The warder bit was overdone. I don't feel like we had chance enough to bond with him to give much emotional impact. It just seemed like they were dedicating the bulk of a whole episode to a tertiary character...if it is about foreshadowing, they could have done it more effectively with much less.

I also was scratching my head at a Whitecloak hanging outside Tar Valon, chopping off Aes Sedai hands. I mean, if they can just roam around and execute Aes Sedai wherever they want, what's to stop the Aes Sedai from balefiring their camp? Why is there not all-out war between the two?

Overall still very much enjoying it, but this episode stopped the curve of each episode improving and felt like a step back.

On a different note, this is the first episode where I noticed a significant divergence from the book. It has been 30 years, bud didn't Rand and Mat go to Caemlyn first, meeting Elayne there? Not a big deal, but it does imply that they're going to be shifting things around from the books.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

As a non-book reader I felt that a chunk of Rand and Mat's storyline got cut. It's almost like the episode focused on dull stuff whist the interesting stuff happened off-screen.

It's not helped that the actor playing Rand is a terrible mumbler and I have a hard time telling what he is saying. He can go in the box with Salvor Hardin as characters that should be written out of their shows.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Mercurius said:


> After episode 5, some similar thoughts to others. The warder bit was overdone. I don't feel like we had chance enough to bond with him to give much emotional impact. It just seemed like they were dedicating the bulk of a whole episode to a tertiary character...if it is about foreshadowing, they could have done it more effectively with much less.
> 
> I also was scratching my head at a Whitecloak hanging outside Tar Valon, chopping off Aes Sedai hands. I mean, if they can just roam around and execute Aes Sedai wherever they want, what's to stop the Aes Sedai from balefiring their camp? Why is there not all-out war between the two?
> 
> Overall still very much enjoying it, but this episode stopped the curve of each episode improving and felt like a step back.
> 
> On a different note, this is the first episode where I noticed a significant divergence from the book. It has been 30 years, bud didn't Rand and Mat go to Caemlyn first, meeting Elayne there? Not a big deal, but it does imply that they're going to be shifting things around from the books.



Yes, they went to Caemlyn in book 1. In fact they didn't go to Tar Valon until book 2, and even then, it was just the women. They're re-arranging things to get the Aes Sedai politics off to a running start, as well as not having to create another whole major city and introduce (and pay for) several major characters who would only appear in a single 5 - 10 minute scene and then not be shown again until the next season. They did say the Amerlyn was returning from Caemlyn, so I wouldn't be surprised if we get Elayne, Elaida, and so on name-dropped when she returns. We know Elayne has been cast for Season 2, and there's a woman who has been cast for Season 2 as well who the heaving betting is on being Elaida.

Also, the Whitecloaks _do_ set up camp right outside of Tar Valon in the books. They follow Elayne's escort from Caemlyn to Tar Valon, and just stay there. It causes some situations in Book 3.


----------



## Demetrios1453

payn said:


> Whats up with the white cloak way of light faction? I mean, its clear they dont like the magic using women, at all. Though, where does their territory exist? I mean, the tower is where the mage women live right? The white cloaks can just camp outside the city?



They technically don't have a territory. They're sort of like the medieval monastic orders like the Knights Templar, with chapter houses all over, but not actually owning a sovereign state. They basically do run one country through a puppet king, but they, again, technically do not rule that country, but just have heavy influence in it.


----------



## TheSword

Don’t forget an Aes Sedai can only use the power to kill in defense of their own life. So an Aes Sedai has to physically put herself in danger to be able to attack the Children with the power. Which is probably not on their high priority.

I seem to remember the children more being nuisances and demagogues rather than being particularly effective at killing Aes Sedai. Lurking around the edges and picking on the weak. It’s strongly implied in the books that if Children ever had to face a real Aes Sedai they would be in a lot of trouble. There’s a great scene in the book where they try to stop Moiraine outside Baerlon and she uses illusions to grow to the size of a giant and send them running.

That said they would pose a threat to someone like Egwene… associated with the power but not trained to use it.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

At first I was annoyed by skipping Camelyn and moving everything to Tar Valon, but after considering what moves in the plot as a result I can see the change making sense. I don't recall the Inquisitor in the book being quite as mustache-twisting evil nor having killed Aes Sedai, but I guess they really wanted to set up the conflict with Perrin.

They've only got three episodes left to get to the Eye of the World and complete the first novel, so things need to move a bit briskly.

I was amused by how thick the Tales of Jeyne Farstrider book was, for some reason.


----------



## Ovinomancer

Mercurius said:


> After episode 5, some similar thoughts to others. The warder bit was overdone. I don't feel like we had chance enough to bond with him to give much emotional impact. It just seemed like they were dedicating the bulk of a whole episode to a tertiary character...if it is about foreshadowing, they could have done it more effectively with much less.
> 
> I also was scratching my head at a Whitecloak hanging outside Tar Valon, chopping off Aes Sedai hands. I mean, if they can just roam around and execute Aes Sedai wherever they want, what's to stop the Aes Sedai from balefiring their camp? Why is there not all-out war between the two?



The three oaths, for one, and the fact that Tar Valon does not have a standing army and probably wouldn't be permitted one by the other nations.  The Aes Sedai operate politically, not militarily.  Having an army would be seen as trying to sidestep the Oaths and force compliance on others.  The trust in the oaths is already weak, and most commoners don't even know about them and think Aes Sedai can channel at the all they want.  The Children of the Light, however, are keenly aware of the Oaths.


Mercurius said:


> Overall still very much enjoying it, but this episode stopped the curve of each episode improving and felt like a step back.
> 
> On a different note, this is the first episode where I noticed a significant divergence from the book. It has been 30 years, bud didn't Rand and Mat go to Caemlyn first, meeting Elayne there? Not a big deal, but it does imply that they're going to be shifting things around from the books.



Elayne is cast for season 2.


----------



## Ovinomancer

TheSword said:


> Don’t forget an Aes Sedai can only use the power to kill in defense of their own life. So an Aes Sedai has to physically put herself in danger to be able to attack the Children with the power. Which is probably not on their high priority.
> 
> I seem to remember the children more being nuisances and demagogues rather than being particularly effective at killing Aes Sedai. Lurking around the edges and picking on the weak. It’s strongly implied in the books that if Children ever had to face a real Aes Sedai they would be in a lot of trouble. There’s a great scene in the book where they try to stop Moiraine outside Baerlon and she uses illusions to grow to the size of a giant and send them running.
> 
> That said they would pose a threat to someone like Egwene… associated with the power but not trained to use it.



Actually, in the books there are often cautions to Aes Sedai and the women to be very careful of the Children because they are very good at laying ambushes and a single arrow from hiding is all it takes, Aes Sedai or no.  Morraine tries hard to avoid them, and every interaction with Children, even by Elayne and Nynaeve when they can channel well and are not bound by the Oaths is fraught because even a woman channeling is not immune.  Against an channeler, you can bet that the Children will scatter and start firing arrows from as many directions as they can and you can't block an arrow you never see, even with the power.  It doesn't provide increased awareness so that you can just feel arrows coming at you.

Now, a well trained channeler like one of the Forsaken might indeed be more than a match, but current Aes Sedai are a pale shadow of what they once were.


----------



## TheSword

Ovinomancer said:


> Actually, in the books there are often cautions to Aes Sedai and the women to be very careful of the Children because they are very good at laying ambushes and a single arrow from hiding is all it takes, Aes Sedai or no.  Morraine tries hard to avoid them, and every interaction with Children, even by Elayne and Nynaeve when they can channel well and are not bound by the Oaths is fraught because even a woman channeling is not immune.  Against an channeler, you can bet that the Children will scatter and start firing arrows from as many directions as they can and you can't block an arrow you never see, even with the power.  It doesn't provide increased awareness so that you can just feel arrows coming at you.
> 
> Now, a well trained channeler like one of the Forsaken might indeed be more than a match, but current Aes Sedai are a pale shadow of what they once were.



I’m pretty sure that there isn’t a single example of the Whitecloaks killing/burning an Aes Sedai in the books. Let alone one having a collection of Aes Sedai rings. As I said it seems excessive.


----------



## hawkeyefan

TheSword said:


> I’m pretty sure that there isn’t a single example of the Whitecloaks killing/burning an Aes Sedai in the books. Let alone one having a collection of Aes Sedai rings. As I said it seems excessive.




Actually, there was an Amyrlin Seat who was killed and hanged by Whitecloaks a couple hundred years before the novels take place.

You’re right that Eamon Valda having a collection of rings doesn’t really map to the books. But I don’t think that’s really a problem. It’s a visual indicator that he is a threat, and that even Aes Sedai are in danger from the Whitecloaks.

That ring collection is a picture that does the equivalent of many pages of text.


----------



## Maxperson

Mercurius said:


> I also was scratching my head at a Whitecloak hanging outside Tar Valon, chopping off Aes Sedai hands. I mean, if they can just roam around and execute Aes Sedai wherever they want, what's to stop the Aes Sedai from balefiring their camp?



The oaths forbidding it and the fact that at this point balefire is a lost weave prevent it. 


Mercurius said:


> Why is there not all-out war between the two?



In the books there eventually was.  The Whitecloaks besieged Tar Valon.


----------



## TheSword

hawkeyefan said:


> Actually, there was an Amyrlin Seat who was killed and hanged by Whitecloaks a couple hundred years before the novels take place.
> 
> You’re right that Eamon Valda having a collection of rings doesn’t really map to the books. But I don’t think that’s really a problem. It’s a visual indicator that he is a threat, and that even Aes Sedai are in danger from the Whitecloaks.
> 
> That ring collection is a picture that does the equivalent of many pages of text.



“Serenia Latar being raised on the scaffold, the only Amyrlin the Children had ever managed to hang. She had been dead already, of course, live witches being somewhat hard to hang, but that was beside the point. Six hundred and ninety-three years ago, justice had been done according to the law.”

The exception that proves the rule. The only example in the books over 600 years before and she was murdered not beaten in battle. While she was mediating a dispute I believe.


----------



## hawkeyefan

TheSword said:


> “Serenia Latar being raised on the scaffold, the only Amyrlin the Children had ever managed to hang. She had been dead already, of course, live witches being somewhat hard to hang, but that was beside the point. Six hundred and ninety-three years ago, justice had been done according to the law.”
> 
> The exception that proves the rule. The only example in the books over 600 years before and she was murdered not beaten in battle. While she was mediating a dispute I believe.




Well, she was an Amyrlin, so all the example really does is show that even an Amyrlin Seat is not beyond their reach. It doesnmt do anything to say how likely or not Or how frequently Whitecloaks may have killed other sisters.

But that’s all really beside the point as far as the show goes. In the world of the show, clearly the Whitecloaks are a tangible threat to Aes Sedai. Valda’s killed at least a few.


----------



## Ovinomancer

TheSword said:


> I’m pretty sure that there isn’t a single example of the Whitecloaks killing/burning an Aes Sedai in the books. Let alone one having a collection of Aes Sedai rings. As I said it seems excessive.



Not on screen, no.


----------



## Parmandur

payn said:


> Whats up with the white cloak way of light faction? I mean, its clear they dont like the magic using women, at all. Though, where does their territory exist? I mean, the tower is where the mage women live right? The white cloaks can just camp outside the city?



They have a nation state in the southwest of the continent. Their society is basically built on the premise that using the One Power is playing God, and what caused the apocalypse. Sort if a mash of the Knights Templar with Pueitan New England.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> On a different note, this is the first episode where I noticed a significant divergence from the book. It has been 30 years, bud didn't Rand and Mat go to Caemlyn first, meeting Elayne there? Not a big deal, but it does imply that they're going to be shifting things around from the books.



They've announced Elayne's casting for Season 2, they didn't feel it was appropriate to cast a main cast member fir a cameo in this Season.


----------



## Parmandur

Paul Farquhar said:


> As a non-book reader I felt that a chunk of Rand and Mat's storyline got cut. It's almost like the episode focused on dull stuff whist the interesting stuff happened off-screen.
> 
> It's not helped that the actor playing Rand is a terrible mumbler and I have a hard time telling what he is saying. He can go in the box with Salvor Hardin as characters that should be written out of their shows.



You are spectacularly correct in your assessment. Jordan has basically no time jumps for them, so there was a lot of travelog material,  and some significant episodes.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> You are spectacularly correct in your assessment. Jordan has basically no time jumps for them, so there was a lot of travelogs material,  and some significant episodes.



The whole boat ride and the beginning of Matt's luck.


----------



## Mordhau

Maxperson said:


> The whole boat ride and the beginning of Matt's luck.



I don't remember any of that.  All I remember was:

Thom meeting them at Whitebridge fighting the Fade
Sleeping in some barn, a darkfriend woman and the side of a barn blown out.
Vague memories of description of the road to Caemlyn.

It feels to me like if they cut the stuff I don't remember after 20 years, they've probably made the right decisions.


----------



## Parmandur

Mordhau said:


> I don't remember any of that.  All I remember was:
> 
> Thom meeting them at Whitebridge fighting the Fade
> Sleeping in some barn, a darkfriend woman and the side of a barn blown out.
> Vague memories of description of the road to Caemlyn.
> 
> It feels to me like if they cut the stuff I don't remember after 20 years, they've probably made the right decisions.



Rand & Mat in Caemalyn and meeting Elayne, Gawyn, and Galad for the first time is pretty central to the entire series, but a lot of what was cut was picturesque detail.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> The whole boat ride and the beginning of Matt's luck.



They cut some amazing prose, IMHO, but I can appreciate their decision here to move the story forward. Methinks Mat's luck will come up.


----------



## Mordhau

Parmandur said:


> Rand & Mat in Caemalyn and meeting Elayne, Gawyn, and Galad for the first time is pretty central to the entire series, but a lot of what was cut was picturesque detail.



Yeah.  I remember that, but to a large degree that hasn't been so much cut as replaced.


Parmandur said:


> They cut some amazing prose, IMHO, but I can appreciate their decision here to move the story forward. Methinks Mat's luck will come up.



To my memory, Matt's luck didn't really come up until book 3 (not saying it didn't come up earlier - I just didn't really note it).  I don't remember Matt making much impression on me at all until he wakes up in the tower after the whole business with the dagger.  I think that might have been the first time we got things from his point of view.


----------



## Parmandur

Mordhau said:


> Yeah.  I remember that, but to a large degree that hasn't been so much cut as replaced.
> 
> To my memory, Matt's luck didn't really come up until book 3 (not saying it didn't come up earlier - I just didn't really note it).  I don't remember Matt making much impression on me at all until he wakes up in the tower after the whole business with the dagger.  I think that might have been the first time we got things from his point of view.



Indeed, that is where the very first Mat POV chapter begins in book 3.


----------



## Maxperson

Mordhau said:


> To my memory, Matt's luck didn't really come up until book 3 (not saying it didn't come up earlier - I just didn't really note it).  I don't remember Matt making much impression on me at all until he wakes up in the tower after the whole business with the dagger.  I think that might have been the first time we got things from his point of view.



His luck begins after finding the dagger and ending up on the boat to Whitebridge with Thom and Rand.  In book 3 after the dagger, it's magnified to a much greater degree.  I think Jordan wanted to set it up as a gift of his that was magnified by what happened, rather than a gift that came about because of what happened.


----------



## Herschel

Mercurius said:


> The warder bit was overdone. I don't feel like we had chance enough to bond with him to give much emotional impact. It just seemed like they were dedicating the bulk of a whole episode to a tertiary character...if it is about foreshadowing, they could have done it more effectively with much less.




I rather enjoyed it. It gave us background on the warders and wasn't just a myopic slog of main character focus for the short of attention span. The four main kids are probably the weakest (common) actors in the show (and the one who plays Mat has already been recast for season 2) and this showcased some chops among the rest of the cast while the four grow into their roles.


----------



## Maxperson

Herschel said:


> I rather enjoyed it. It gave us background on the warders and wasn't just a myopic slog of main character focus for the short of attention span. The four main kids are probably the weakest (common) actors in the show (and the one who plays Mat has already been recast for season 2) and this showcased some chops among the rest of the cast while the four grow into their roles.



Doh!  Matt was my favorite of the guys.  Rand is growing on me a bit, but Perrin I'm just okay with at this point.

Why did they recast him?


----------



## Mort

Maxperson said:


> Doh!  Matt was my favorite of the guys.  Rand is growing on me a bit, but Perrin I'm just okay with at this point.
> 
> Why did they recast him?




Amazon hasn't provided any details. And a Google search hasn't revealed any (at least for me).


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> Doh! Matt was my favorite of the guys. Rand is growing on me a bit, but Perrin I'm just okay with at this point.
> 
> Why did they recast him?



No one knows.  It was apparently amicable, though, as there have been no rumblings of any friction between him and the cast or production. The actor probably didn't want a long term commitment, or there was some health or family issue.


----------



## MarkB

As someone who hasn't read the books, while the bereaved Warder's ultimate fate seemed obvious (when he melted down the ring I was expecting him to just head straight on off the balcony), his arc did serve to illustrate the strong sense of family within the Warders. We also saw two different funeral rites from the same organisation, which was some good worldbuilding.

It did feel like there were some missing scenes in the episode. Jumping straight from Nynaeve tiptoeing around the Tower to her having been found by an ogre and brought back to Rand and Mat's hotel room was a bit jarring.


----------



## Bolares

So, I was reading the first pages, and I think my take on Perrin's wife would be interesting, as someone that never read the books. (This is all IMHO obviously) The series did a good job to show Perrin and his wife having a loving relationship, and him being an overall straight up nice guy. Me and my wife are watching this together, and she audibly gasped when perrin killed his wife. I think it was well done and had effects in the later episodes, with Perrin discussing the uses of violence and self-defense with the leaf people, his sadness, and asking to die in Egwene's place with the white cloaks. I have no idea how this was done in the book, but right now (episode 5) Perrin is the character we care about the most of the 5.


----------



## Maxperson

MarkB said:


> It did feel like there were some missing scenes in the episode. Jumping straight from Nynaeve tiptoeing around the Tower to her having been found by an ogre and brought back to Rand and Mat's hotel room was a bit jarring.



Yeah.  It felt like that may have been a scene that didn't make the cut for some reason.  When they came walking in together, I was like, "How the hell did he find her?"


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> So, I was reading the first pages, and I think my take on Perrin's wife would be interesting, as someone that never read the books. (This is all IMHO obviously) The series did a good job to show Perrin and his wife having a loving relationship, and him being an overall straight up nice guy. Me and my wife are watching this together, and she audibly gasped when perrin killed his wife. I think it was well done and had effects in the later episodes, with Perrin discussing the uses of violence and self-defense with the leaf people, his sadness, and asking to die in Egwene's place with the white cloaks. I have no idea how this was done in the book, but right now (episode 5) Perrin is the character we care about the most of the 5.



In the book, establishing Perrin as a likeable and extremely thoughtful guy is done through the revalution of his interior life through intimate third person limited narration. One of the main reasons I view this change with some leariness is that is replacing what was in yhebook very good writing and subtle characterization by inventing awife and having her die.

Book Perrin got the same energy without any fridging, which in hindsight was pretty impressive.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> So, I was reading the first pages, and I think my take on Perrin's wife would be interesting, as someone that never read the books. (This is all IMHO obviously) The series did a good job to show Perrin and his wife having a loving relationship, and him being an overall straight up nice guy. Me and my wife are watching this together, and she audibly gasped when perrin killed his wife. I think it was well done and had effects in the later episodes, with Perrin discussing the uses of violence and self-defense with the leaf people, his sadness, and asking to die in Egwene's place with the white cloaks. I have no idea how this was done in the book, but right now (episode 5) Perrin is the character we care about the most of the 5.



That being said, I do have to give it to the show writers that the tensions in Perrin's personality introduced by this change match up well with the tensions in the latter books, though this changes the tenor of his eventual epic love story in super odd ways.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> In the book, establishing Perrin as a likeable and extremely thoughtful guy is done through the revalution of his interior life through intimate third person limited narration. One of the main reasons I view this change with some leariness is that is replacing what was in yhebook very good writing and subtle characterization by inventing awife and having her die.
> 
> Book Perrin got the same energy without any fridging, which in hindsight was pretty impressive.



I get you, I just don't know how they could have translated that in to the series. They needed to make him a character faster. A book has time to do it subtly, but an 8 episode series with 5 main protagonists (I assume they are all protagonists)? It probably could have been done better, but in my unique (at least in this forum) perspective, I think they got the job done of making him a multidimensional caring character, and I'm invested in him.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> though this changes the tenor of his eventual epic love story in super odd ways.



Didn't know he is supposed to have a love story latter, that's cool. Hope they can give him an arch with enough healing and self forgiveness that he can be a part of an epic love story.


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> In the books he was absolutely prophesized to be male.  I don't mind if in the show she doesn't know if the Dragon will be male or female, so long as it ultimately ends up being Rand.  If any of the others ends up being the Dragon, I'm done with the show.



Well, Rand has "protagonist vibes" from the start. But I wasn't certain of it until reading this thread. I think they are doing something interesting by making it seem it will be Nyneave in the show for now. For us non book readers, it keeps us guessing.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> Didn't know he is supposed to have a love story latter, that's cool. Hope they can give him an arch with enough healing and self forgiveness that he can be a part of an epic love story.



Qell, not to get into too much detail, but self loathing and self doubt are his constant struggles in the book, being repulsed by violence and authority but constantly forced into positions of needing commit violence and lead others, all of which is a barrier for his relationship with his future love: so, totally, the feelings this introduces fit, but...weirdly. Thinking on it, the showrunners  pita lot of work into how this fits into his overall arc.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> being repulsed by violence and authority but constantly forced into positions of needing commit violence and lead others



oooh, that's my kind of character! Hope they keep doing him justice. I really liked his talks with the tinkers, and how even being traumatized by violence, he can't wrap his head around not using it when needed.


----------



## Zaukrie

Mercurius said:


> After episode 5, some similar thoughts to others. The warder bit was overdone. I don't feel like we had chance enough to bond with him to give much emotional impact. It just seemed like they were dedicating the bulk of a whole episode to a tertiary character...if it is about foreshadowing, they could have done it more effectively with much less.
> 
> I also was scratching my head at a Whitecloak hanging outside Tar Valon, chopping off Aes Sedai hands. I mean, if they can just roam around and execute Aes Sedai wherever they want, what's to stop the Aes Sedai from balefiring their camp? Why is there not all-out war between the two?
> 
> Overall still very much enjoying it, but this episode stopped the curve of each episode improving and felt like a step back.
> 
> On a different note, this is the first episode where I noticed a significant divergence from the book. It has been 30 years, bud didn't Rand and Mat go to Caemlyn first, meeting Elayne there? Not a big deal, but it does imply that they're going to be shifting things around from the books.



I disagree. My wife and I were commenting on how much we care about him, compared to even 1 character in Foundation. Night and day.

I think this show, like GoT, is a good mix of close up dialogue in rooms, and action. 

Other than people nitpicking the differences between the show and books, I can't see how any fantasy fan isn't liking this show.


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> oooh, that's my kind of character! Hope they keep doing him justice. I really liked his talks with the tinkers, and how even being traumatized by violence, he can't wrap his head around not using it when needed.



Yeah.  In the books he had no wife and took the axe with him when he left.  During that period when it was just him an Egwene traveling together, they took shelter.  While resting they were attacked by whitecloaks and he had to kill some with the axe in order for them to get away.  The wolves came at that point and help by attacking the whitecloaks.  His first killing of humans with the axe really got to him and that's when he started to hate it and the violence that he had to do.  When they met the tinkers there was a similar discussion about violence and the need for it, but his doubt stemmed from killing the whitecloaks and not his wife.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> Well, Rand has "protagonist vibes" from the start. But I wasn't certain of it until reading this thread. I think they are doing something interesting by making it seem it will be Nyneave in the show for now. For us non book readers, it keeps us guessing.



The showrunner has been pretty open in book ran circles about this: it's a narrative device to get new viewers invested in all five characters, since they are all super important in the long run of the story, a d they need to set up all8 seasons.

There are two big changes from the book: in the book, Moraine is way more obtuse and secretive about her mission, and the villagers know more about the Dragon.

In the 51 chapter book, Rand is the viewpoint character for 44 Chapters (Perrin has 8 chapters, Nyneave has 3, and Egwene and Morraine each get 1), so most readers figure it out before anybody in the story does.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  In the books he had no wife and took the axe with him when he left.  During that period when it was just him an Egwene traveling together, they took shelter.  While resting they were attacked by whitecloaks and he had to kill some with the axe in order for them to get away.  The wolves came at that point and help by attacking the whitecloaks.  His first killing of humans with the axe really got to him and that's when he started to hate it and the violence that he had to do.  When they met the tinkers there was a similar discussion about violence and the need for it, but his doubt stemmed from killing the whitecloaks and not his wife.



Which better reflects Robert Jordan's own struggles with having killed toyal strangers in a pointless conflict.


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  In the books he had no wife and took the axe with him when he left.  During that period when it was just him an Egwene traveling together, they took shelter.  While resting they were attacked by whitecloaks and he had to kill some with the axe in order for them to get away.  The wolves came at that point and help by attacking the whitecloaks.  His first killing of humans with the axe really got to him and that's when he started to hate it and the violence that he had to do.  When they met the tinkers there was a similar discussion about violence and the need for it, but his doubt stemmed from killing the whitecloaks and not his wife.



Reading this it makes me think they told the same general story in different ways. I get why they couldn't wait for episode 3-4 to start developing perrin...


----------



## Bolares

I gotta say, it's nice to be on this side of the conversation for once. Normally I'm on team book readers on this stuff...


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> Reading this it makes me think they told the same general story in different ways. I get why they couldn't wait for episode 3-4 to start developing perrin...



Yeah, in the book Perrin only starts getting big time development once the party splits. Mat doesn't get major development until the third novel. The Wheel of Time is definitely a slow burn.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I gotta say, it's nice to be on this side of the conversation for once. Normally I'm on team book readers on this stuff...



You know, the book community is pretty positive about the series at this point. Perrin's wife has been the only "whoa, wait, what?" moment and that's been handled well so far...


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> Yeah, in the book Perrin only starts getting big time development once the party splits. Mat doesn't get major development until the third novel. The Wheel of Time is definitely a slow burn.



Matt deffinatelly seems rushed. He went from charming guy that loves his sisters but is not very responsible with his own life choices, to a lazy as**ole to basically frodo when he got hurt by the Nazgul... I really liked him in the first episode, but it went downhill from there for me. Rand is fine, a little whiny at first, but within reason...


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> Reading this it makes me think they told the same general story in different ways. I get why they couldn't wait for episode 3-4 to start developing perrin...



That seems to be the case with a lot of the series.  They've changed metric craptons of what happened in the book, but retained the same basic feel and reasons for what they've changed.  They're doing a very good job with that.


----------



## Bolares

About things being rushed... The way they brought Rand Frod... Mat and Nyneave back toghether was SO JARRING to me... I get that they didn't need to show her going to the garden and talking with big fella, but wow, that felt fast.


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> Matt deffinatelly seems rushed. He went from charming guy that loves his sisters but is not very responsible with his own life choices, *to a lazy as**ole to basically frodo when he got hurt by the Nazgul.*.. I really liked him in the first episode, but it went downhill from there for me. Rand is fine, a little whiny at first, but within reason...



There's a reason for that.  It happens slightly slower in the books, but it looks like things are moving faster in the series due to some of those changes that are happening.


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> There's a reason for that.  It happens slightly slower in the books, but it looks like things are moving faster in the series due to some of those changes that are happening.



I was hopping that was the case. I just feel I didn't have time to digest each fase of his personalitty yet. I'm curious to where his story is going, I just don't care as much for him right now as I felt in episode one.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> Matt deffinatelly seems rushed. He went from charming guy that loves his sisters but is not very responsible with his own life choices, to a lazy as**ole to basically frodo when he got hurt by the Nazgul... I really liked him in the first episode, but it went downhill from there for me. Rand is fine, a little whiny at first, but within reason...



That is all very much in keeping with the books, actually. Once we start getting Mat POV chapters in book 3, however, he usually becomes people's favorite characters in the series and maybe one of the most compelling protagonists in fantasy literature. Beyond even wanting to not get too spoilers, I have a hard time summarizing how bizarre Mat's life ends up being...

Actually, for my money, taking the total journey and the destination into account, all five villagers might be among my favorite protagonists in all of fantasy literature. These kids go places and do things, hope the show gets that across while it runs.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> Actually, for my money, taking the total journey and the destination into account, all five villagers might be among my favorite protagonists in all of fantasy literature. These kids go places and do things, hope the show gets that across while it runs.



I really like this idea of having 5 protagonists from the same place that will grow to fill different roles. This has been one of the biggest ups for the series for me this far. I still like Mat (even more if we can go back to episode one Mat at some point), but the other 4 right now are much more interesting to me.


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> I was hopping that was the case. I just feel I didn't have time to digest each fase of his personalitty yet. I'm curious to where his story is going, I just don't care as much for him right now as I felt in episode one.



In the books Matt is my favorite character, just barely eclipsing Rand.  The darkness phase is probably my least favorite portion of his story, but they seem to be moving it at an accelerated pace given the changes being made for the show.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's done with in the next episode or two.


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> In the books Matt is my favorite character, just barely eclipsing Rand.  The darkness phase is probably my least favorite portion of his story, but they seem to be moving it at an accelerated pace given the changes being made for the show.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's done with in the next episode or two.



I like how they are contrasting this fase of his with the false dragon and the madness. Makes you question if that's where he is going...


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> I like how they are contrasting this fase of his with the false dragon and the madness. Makes you question if that's where he is going...



Right.  For the non-book readers it places more doubt on who the Dragon is.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I really like this idea of having 5 protagonists from the same place that will grow to fill different roles. This has been one of the biggest ups for the series for me this far. I still like Mat (even more if we can go back to episode one Mat at some point), but the other 4 right now are much more interesting to me.



The books in great detail, because thst is the only way Robert Jordan knew how to do things, lampshade the absurdity that five such wildly different and globally important people came from one small random village within a few years of each other and tie it into the broader themes of destiny and providence at the heart of the story.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> The books in great detail, because thst is the only way Robert Jordan knew how to do things, lampshade the absurdity that five such wildly different and globally important people came from one small random village within a few years of each other and tie it into the broader themes of destiny and providence at the heart of the story.



Right.  @Bolares you've heard Moiraine mention that the protagonists are Ta'veren, but she didn't explain what that meant.  You've also heard mention of the wheel and maybe the pattern.  In the books we get a much better explanation of those things.  The wheel is something like sewing wheel and the pattern is the reality that is woven by it.  Each person, object and creature in existence is a thread.  

If you take a shirt and the threads in it, sometimes a thread can move around or even be plucked out and next to nothing will happen to the shirt.  Other threads are critical and if you remove them you lose a button or a sleeve falls off.  Ta'veren are those critically important threads.

For purposes of the story, the minor threads have more latitude to alter their lives and change their circumstances.  The Ta'veren, through, are much more tightly woven into the pattern.  Their importance actually swirls the threads of others around them and creates great alterations to the pattern, but while the destines of others get changed, the destines of the Ta'veren are pretty set in stone.  It's an interesting contrast that Jordan set up.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> Right.  @Bolares you've heard Moiraine mention that the protagonists are Ta'veren, but she didn't explain what that meant.  You've also heard mention of the wheel and maybe the pattern.  In the books we get a much better explanation of those things.  The wheel is something like sewing wheel and the pattern is the reality that is woven by it.  Each person, object and creature in existence is a thread.
> 
> If you take a shirt and the threads in it, sometimes a thread can move around or even be plucked out and next to nothing will happen to the shirt.  Other threads are critical and if you remove them you lose a button or a sleeve falls off.  Ta'veren are those critically important threads.
> 
> For purposes of the story, the minor threads have more latitude to alter their lives and change their circumstances.  The Ta'veren, through, are much more tightly woven into the pattern.  Their importance actually swirls the threads of others around them and creates great alterations to the pattern, but while the destines of others get changed, the destines of the Ta'veren are pretty set in stone.  It's an interesting contrast that Jordan set up.



I wonder how they plan to handle Mat's memory issues: the only thing that I can imagine that would work might be flashbacks...?


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> I wonder how they plan to handle Mat's memory issues: the only thing that I can imagine that would work might be flashbacks...?



That's how it worked in the books.  I don't see why they wouldn't do that in the show.  Some flashbacks(because too many would be costly), and then once established he can just say he remembers something and apply it.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> That's how it worked in the books.  I don't see why they wouldn't do that in the show.  Some flashbacks(because too many would be costly), and then once established he can just say he remembers something and apply it.



Yeah, easier to do in the book: I'm just curious to see how they weave it into cinematic language.


----------



## Parmandur

Come to think of it, just breaking out in speaking in tongues periodically will probably be more effective on screen than on the page.


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> Right.  @Bolares you've heard Moiraine mention that the protagonists are Ta'veren, but she didn't explain what that meant.  You've also heard mention of the wheel and maybe the pattern.  In the books we get a much better explanation of those things.  The wheel is something like sewing wheel and the pattern is the reality that is woven by it.  Each person, object and creature in existence is a thread.
> 
> If you take a shirt and the threads in it, sometimes a thread can move around or even be plucked out and next to nothing will happen to the shirt.  Other threads are critical and if you remove them you lose a button or a sleeve falls off.  Ta'veren are those critically important threads.
> 
> For purposes of the story, the minor threads have more latitude to alter their lives and change their circumstances.  The Ta'veren, through, are much more tightly woven into the pattern.  Their importance actually swirls the threads of others around them and creates great alterations to the pattern, but while the destines of others get changed, the destines of the Ta'veren are pretty set in stone.  It's an interesting contrast that Jordan set up.



I got some of that... but wow, that sounds GREAT. I may get book 1 on kindle after I finish the first season. I really want to try and get my first impressions of the story through the series first this time.

About them all being important, they give clear signs that Rand is the Dragon, but they are mostly meta signs. He fits the bill of the usual protagonist. In the story, until now he is the least likelly to be the dragon, as he has nothing "special" going for him. I think this is really cool, and drives the interest in the story of the other four a lot. I got the feeling they were all gonna be important to this world and were all really special from the start, even if only one of them is the Dragon.


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> I got some of that... but wow, that sounds GREAT. I may get book 1 on kindle after I finish the first season. I really want to try and get my first impressions of the story through the series first this time.
> 
> About them all being important, they give clear signs that Rand is the Dragon, but they are mostly meta signs. He fits the bill of the usual protagonist. In the story, until now he is the least likelly to be the dragon, as he has nothing "special" going for him. I think this is really cool, and drives the interest in the story of the other four a lot. I got the feeling they were all gonna be important to this world and were all really special from the start, even if only one of them is the Dragon.



Yeah.  In the books only Matt, Perrin and Rand were Ta'veren, but Egwene and Nynaeve did things every bit as great and world affecting as the guys did, so I never really understood why they weren't Ta'veren as well.


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  In the books only Matt, Perrin and Rand were Ta'veren, but Egwene and Nynaeve did things every bit as great and world affecting as the guys did, so I never really understood why they weren't Ta'veren as well.



well... they are dudes written by a dude.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I got some of that... but wow, that sounds GREAT. I may get book 1 on kindle after I finish the first season. I really want to try and get my first impressions of the story through the series first this time.
> 
> About them all being important, they give clear signs that Rand is the Dragon, but they are mostly meta signs. He fits the bill of the usual protagonist. In the story, until now he is the least likelly to be the dragon, as he has nothing "special" going for him. I think this is really cool, and drives the interest in the story of the other four a lot. I got the feeling they were all gonna be important to this world and were all really special from the start, even if only one of them is the Dragon.



I've said this upthread, but trying book 1 and seeing if the style suits you is definitely worth the time. The series gets a bit sluggish, or maybe languid is a better word, but gosh does it get somewhere in the end.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  In the books only Matt, Perrin and Rand were Ta'veren, but Egwene and Nynaeve did things every bit as great and world affecting as the guys did, so I never really understood why they weren't Ta'veren as well.



It probably has to do with the three guys being united in a triad (Tyr-Odin-Thor, according to Jordan), tied across lifetimes.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> well... they are dudes written by a dude.



Well, Nyneave and Egwene end up as totally awesome and mythic figures, they just don't get called out as being notably kinks in the Pattern: Egwene especially, given what she does, that seems an odd omission still.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> It probably has to do with the three guys being united in a triad (Tyr-Odin-Thor, according to Jordan), tied across lifetimes.



Ta'veren are rare, but they aren't that rare.  As Siuan says...

_"I saw the boy, you know, in the courtyard during the Welcome. It is one of my Talents, seeing ta'veren. [...] he blazed like the sun. I've seldom been afraid of my life, but the sight of him made me afraid right down to my toes. I wanted to cower, to howl."_

She had to have seen others during her lifetime to know that it was one of her talents.  The two women being Ta'veren, even if not as strongly as the men, would have made sense.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> I've said this upthread, but trying book 1 and seeing if the style suits you is definitely worth the time. The series gets a bit sluggish, or maybe languid is a better word, but gosh does it get somewhere in the end.



Well, I'm not in a hurry. And I was looking for a long ass series to put me to sleep at night


----------



## Parmandur

*ROBERT JORDAN -* For ben, of course women can be _ta'veren_. None of the major female characters in the books is ta'veren, though. The Wheel doesn't cast ta'veren around indiscriminately. There has to be a specific reason or need. (I tossed in the "major" just to leave you something to argue about.)

*BRANDON SANDERSON -* People seem to wonder why all three boys, and not a single one of the girls, are _ta'veren_. I've assumed this was to confuse the Shadow.

non-Ta'veren can still do big things...but some characthers, such as Logaine or Siuan Sanche, can actually see Ta'veren being different when they look at them.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> Well, Nyneave and Egwene end up as totally awesome and mythic figures, they just don't get called out as being notably kinks in the Pattern: Egwene especially, given what she does, that seems an odd omission still.



I'm not trying to call Jordan out or anything like that, but that is something that happens sometimes when dudes write about dudes.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> Well, I'm not in a hurry. And I was looking for a long ass series to put me to sleep at night



It fits the bill, though occasionally I can attest that it can wreck your sleep when the going gets good.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Well, Nyneave and Egwene end up as totally awesome and mythic figures, they just don't get called out as being notably kinks in the Pattern: Egwene especially, given what she does, that seems an odd omission still.



I'd argue that Nynaeve does as much or more than Egwene does with her re-discoveries of lost weaves(healing and such), the bowl and her ride.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I'd argue that Nynaeve does as much or more than Egwene does with her re-discoveries of lost weaves(healing and such), the bowl and her ride.



Nyneave accomplishes more in the cosmic or metaphysical realm, Egwene accomplishes ridiculous political and military feats that feel like definitive Ta'veren shenanigans.


----------



## Bolares

TheSword said:


> I understand. I’m just not sure what it added, rather than him just throw himself into battle. The writers instead chose a protracted, drawn out conclusion to it. Not sure when clearly dozens of people died based on the graves at the start Steppans funeral led to such an exaggerated outpouring of grief. It added very little to my mind.



To me it added a lot. It really showed how deep the bond goes. It's the classic show don't tell. It also sowed seeds of Mordaine feering for Lan's well being if something happens to her. It showed me that the bond goes beyond natural love. It's a magical effect;


----------



## Parmandur

They are gearing up the cast for Great Hubt characters in the next season still, it'sbeen so long since I even remembered Ingtar Shimowa was even a character,  so much depth and breadth in this series:



> Roberts plays Uno Nomeshta, a gruff one-eyed soldier and tracker who serves Lord Agelmar.
> 
> Fedaravicius plays Mesema, a quiet and intense warrior who serves Lord Agelmar.
> 
> Chillingirian portrays Ingtar Shinowa, a lord and soldier from war-ravaged lands.
> 
> Thomas Chaanhing (Marco Polo) also guest stars in Season 1 as Lord Agelmar, and Sandra Yi Sencindiver (The Bridge 4) guest stars as Lady Amalisa.












						‘The Wheel Of Time’ Rounds Out Season 2 Recurring Cast With Guy Roberts,  Arnas Fedaravicius & Gregg Chillingirian
					

EXCLUSIVE: Amazon is expanding its cast for the second season of The Wheel of Time. Guy Roberts, Arnas Fedaravicius and Gregg Chillingirian are set for recurring roles in the fantasy series adaptat…




					deadline.com


----------



## Demetrios1453

Ingtar was actually cast for season 1, but his actor in the meantime got cast for a major role elsewhere, so they've renamed the character for this season and re-cast for season 2.

Every other word out of Uno's mouth better be "flaming" lol...

I wish they would put some actors and roles together from other casting announcements. There were several actors cast in unnamed roles, and several roles that the showrunner has said have been cast (Verin, Aviendha). People have been guessing who might be playing who (especially Verin), but it would be nice to have some confirmation. It would be good to know if one of the actresses is indeed playing Eliada, just to put those (baseless, IMHO) rumors that the role is being combined with Liandrin...


----------



## Ovinomancer

On Ta'veren:

@Maxperson is somewhat wrong in their explanation.  A normal person has little to say about how the wheel weaves them -- it is hard for them to move their thread.  Meanwhile, Ta'veren alter the weave as they move through it -- they make the weave respond to them.  There are some places for everyone where the wheel holds you tight, but where that isn't happening it's the Ta'veren that alter things to their use while normal people find it much harder to alter their destiny (not impossible, but difficult).  It's not predestination so much as what it's names -- a pattern.  Ta'veren change the pattern easily, normal people do not, but may with great effort.

So, with that correction, the girls are even MORE impressive for what they did without being Ta'veren.  They did it the hard way, and earned every last step, having to fight for it.  In my opinion, the changing of Egwene to Ta'veren does a huge disservice to the character, because it take away from what she did by making it more about magical people than hard work and grit.


----------



## TheSword

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,
born of a maiden wedded to no man.
He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.
When the winds of Tarmon Gai'don scour the earth,
he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.
- _The Kareathon Cycle_

“He is born again. I feel him. The Dragon has taken his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount. He is coming. *He Is Coming*”
- _Gitara Moroso, Keeper. 978 NE_

Really can’t wait for that flashback!


----------



## MarkB

Bolares said:


> About things being rushed... The way they brought Rand Frod... Mat and Nyneave back toghether was SO JARRING to me... I get that they didn't need to show her going to the garden and talking with big fella, but wow, that felt fast.



Given how many scenes wound up taking place in that one corridor junction with the statues, I did wonder if maybe they didn't actually have many sets for the Tower. Maybe they'd planned a bridging scene in either the garden or library, but decided it wasn't worth building a set just for that one scene.


----------



## Parmandur

MarkB said:


> Given how many scenes wound up taking place in that one corridor junction with the statues, I did wonder if maybe they didn't actually have many sets for the Tower. Maybe they'd planned a bridging scene in either the garden or library, but decided it wasn't worth building a set just for that one scene.



The show has a very high budget, but that's definitely the sort of area where I could see them consolidating costs for efficiencies sake.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

I do hope they'll do Mat justice -- he's my favorite character of the series. So far ... not.

And I forget ... in what book did they 



Spoiler



first visit the Tower of Ghengji?


 That location and its inhabitants is once of my favorites -- to the point I wrote rules for the game of Snakes and Foxes (assuming we'll eventually meet Olver).

Finally, on Ta'veren. I get it they're a thing ... I always thought it was a weak point. Why does everyone have to be destined? Why can't they make choices rather than have everyone swirled in their wake? Delete the concept (would take a lot of editing) and the books might have been better for it.


----------



## Parmandur

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> That location and its inhabitants is once of my favorites -- to the point I wrote rules for the game of Snakes and Foxes (assuming we'll eventually meet Olver).



That shows up as a background thing in Eye pf the World, prior to the events of Episode 5 considerably so I doubt it will show up this Season in any capacity (Bayle Doman might e cut from the series completely, or only show up later), but doesn't pay off until Towers of Midnight.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> That shows up as a background thing in Eye pf the World, prior to the events of Episode 5 considerably so I doubt it will show up this Season in any capacity (Bayle Doman might e cut from the series completely, or only show up later), but doesn't pay off until Towers of Midnight.



He might be referring to the archways as well.  It and the inhabitants kinda show up during those instances.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> He might be referring to the archways as well.  It and the inhabitants kinda show up during those instances.



Yeah, those do come up a bit: very curious to see how that plays out in the show.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> He might be referring to the archways as well. It and the inhabitants kinda show up during those instances.



The first archway shows up at the start of TSR in Tear.

Meanwhile, the actor cast as Uno had this to say:

"How the Wheel Weaves, I first read The Eye of the World back in 1990. You goat-kissing sons of flaming trollocs ain’t seen nothing yet!"


----------



## Mercurius

After finishing episode 5, I asked my girlfriend who she thought the Dragon Reborn was. I gave her three choices. She picked: 1. Egwene, 2. Mat, 3. Nynaeve.

I was surprised, but I guess this means the showrunners are doing a good job.


----------



## Mercurius

On a different note, here's something fun for y'all. A speculative map of the Second Age:


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> After finishing episode 5, I asked my girlfriend who she thought the Dragon Reborn was. I gave her three choices. She picked: 1. Egwene, 2. Mat, 3. Nynaeve.
> 
> I was surprised, but I guess this means the showrunners are doing a good job.



I mean, it's hard to argue with results.


----------



## Maxperson

Mercurius said:


> After finishing episode 5, I asked my girlfriend who she thought the Dragon Reborn was. I gave her three choices. She picked: 1. Egwene, 2. Mat, 3. Nynaeve.
> 
> I was surprised, but I guess this means the showrunners are doing a good job.



Nynaeve displayed a huge amount of power and Matt had Thom talk to Rand about Matt channeling, so I can easily see where she got those two from.  I'm curious why Egwene over Rand or Perrin, though.


----------



## Campbell

It feels like the writers are basically purposefully pointing the viewers away from Rand in a way that will still feel like there were hints. The "Matt might be a channeler" bit feels like Fight Club level misdirection.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Mercurius said:


> On a different note, here's something fun for y'all. A speculative map of the Second Age:



How does sea rise simultaneously flood low-lying areas (central North America, Amazon basin) and elevate low lying areas above sea level (Bering Strait land bridge)?


----------



## Bolares

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> How does sea rise simultaneously flood low-lying areas (central North America, Amazon basin) and elevate low lying areas above sea level (Bering Strait land bridge)?



Nuclear and magical catastrofies altering stuff is my best guess


----------



## Maxperson

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> How does sea rise simultaneously flood low-lying areas (central North America, Amazon basin) and elevate low lying areas above sea level (Bering Strait land bridge)?



The breaking wasn't a simple sea rise.  The men went mad raising some areas and destroying others.


----------



## Mordhau

Maxperson said:


> The breaking wasn't a simple sea rise.  The men went mad raising some areas and destroying others.



This map implies a breaking before the breaking (which in WOT terms wouldn't really be surprising).

The way history is constructed in the Wheel of Time implies a catastrophist view of history, which was an alternative series of theories from the 18th and 19th centuries (and clearly inspired the Hyborian age of Conan).


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Mordhau said:


> This map implies a breaking before the breaking (which in WOT terms wouldn't really be surprising).
> 
> The way history is constructed in the Wheel of Time implies a catastrophist view of history, which was an alternative series of theories from the 18th and 19th centuries (and clearly inspired the Hyborian age of Conan).



Right -- there's a major (assumed nuclear) war at the end of the first age that ends the Age of Myth (our age). The Breaking at the end of the second Age, the Age of Legend, the One Power alters the landscape ... but nukes and climate change aren't raising land in the first one.


----------



## Maxperson

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Right -- there's a major (assumed nuclear) war at the end of the first age that ends the Age of Myth (our age). The Breaking at the end of the second Age, the Age of Legend, the One Power alters the landscape ... but nukes and climate change aren't raising land in the first one.



The first age is not our world.  The portal stones come from the first age, so the one power was known and used during that period, making it an alternate reality of ours.  That means that the landscape doesn't have to be identical.  Nor does there even have to be climate change.


----------



## Mercurius

Maxperson said:


> The first age is not our world.  The portal stones come from the first age, so the one power was known and used during that period, making it an alternate reality of ours.  That means that the landscape doesn't have to be identical.  Nor does there even have to be climate change.




This is debatable. The first age--or rather, the age before the Age of Legends, may or may not be our current age which, I'll remind you, is not over. 

I decided to re-read Eye of the World and came across a few tidbits from Thom Merrillin in the early chapter, "The Gleeman," in which he mentions various personages from our era such as "Mosk the Giant" (Moscow) and "Materese the Healer" (Mother Theresa). They're summarized on this page about real-world references. I had to chuckle at "Anla the Wise Counselor" (Ann Landers).

Thom says, "Old stories, those...Stories from the Age before the Age of Legends, some say. Perhaps even older."

Meaning, all we know is that they are from before the Age of Legends, but it isn't clear to Thom--and thus perhaps to Robert Jordan himself--whether the first age is our age, or whether our age is from an earlier cycle of seven ages.

But what _is _clear is that it is our world, and in our future. That said, Jordan seems to emphasize the cyclical nature of time, so that past and future are not strictly linear. This is resonates with the Hindu view of time (the yugas, etc), and other variations on Eternal Return, from Eliade's study of myth to Nietszche's rather scary view of Eternal Recurrence, that we live the same life, over and over again.

Jordan says the same basic seven ages are repeated, but while the underlying patterns and nature of each age are the same, the details are different.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> This is debatable. The first age--or rather, the age before the Age of Legends, may or may not be our current age which, I'll remind you, is not over.
> 
> I decided to re-read Eye of the World and came across a few tidbits from Thom Merrillin in the early chapter, "The Gleeman," in which he mentions various personages from our era such as "Mosk the Giant" (Moscow) and "Materese the Healer" (Mother Theresa). They're summarized on this page about real-world references. I had to chuckle at "Anla the Wise Counselor" (Ann Landers).
> 
> Thom says, "Old stories, those...Stories from the Age before the Age of Legends, some say. Perhaps even older."
> 
> Meaning, all we know is that they are from before the Age of Legends, but it isn't clear to Thom--and thus perhaps to Robert Jordan himself--whether the first age is our age, or whether our age is from an earlier cycle of seven ages.
> 
> But what _is _clear is that it is our world, and in our future. That said, Jordan seems to emphasize the cyclical nature of time, so that past and future are not strictly linear. This is resonates with the Hindu view of time (the yugas, etc), and other variations on Eternal Return, from Eliade's study of myth to Nietszche's rather scary view of Eternal Recurrence, that we live the same life, over and over again.
> 
> Jordan says the same basic seven ages are repeated, but while the underlying patterns and nature of each age are the same, the details are different.



It's best not to get too caught up in the metaphysics as understood by the inhabitants of the book world since 



Spoiler: MAJOR SPOILERS, DO NOT READ



one of the main points of the climax is that a lot of it is Dark One propaganda and misdirection.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> It's best not to get too caught up in the metaphysics as understood by the inhabitants of the book world since
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: MAJOR SPOILERS, DO NOT READ
> 
> 
> 
> one of the main points of the climax is that a lot of it is Dark One propaganda and misdirection.



OH C'MON! That huge spoiler tag just makes me curious.


----------



## Mort

Bolares said:


> OH C'MON! That huge spoiler tag just makes me curious.



It's really Terry Pratchett's Discworld a few millennia later!

No, not really. Would be fun though.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> OH C'MON! That huge spoiler tag just makes me curious.



It's really sort of a metaphysical spoiler and not detailed, go for it if you want and don't mind thematic spoilerage (science shows spoilers actually enhance enjoyment of stories, bit I find people don't usually like being told that).


----------



## Mordhau

Mort said:


> It's really Terry Pratchett's Discworld a few millennia later!



During his last incarnation the Dragon was called 'Rincewind'.


----------



## Dioltach

Mordhau said:


> During his last incarnation the Dragon was called 'Rincewind'.



He took out the Dark One with half a brick stuffed in a sock.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> It's best not to get too caught up in the metaphysics as understood by the inhabitants of the book world since
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: MAJOR SPOILERS, DO NOT READ
> 
> 
> 
> one of the main points of the climax is that a lot of it is Dark One propaganda and misdirection.



Sure, but that doesn't mean it is all propaganda. And "Materese" clearly refers to Mother Theresa...although, I suppose with an open-ended cosmology, we could play with the idea that maybe the Dark One is a mega-billionaire from our world who traveled to another world, bringing a few humans with them, and tried to rule over them. 

(And of course you don't need to use spoilers tags, this being a spoiler-friendly thread)


----------



## Mort

Dioltach said:


> He took out the Dark One with half a brick stuffed in a sock.



Well that or the luggage at him (the dark one) no one knows for sure.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> Sure, but that doesn't mean it is all propaganda. And "Materese" clearly refers to Mother Theresa...although, I suppose with an open-ended cosmology, we could play with the idea that maybe the Dark One is a mega-billionaire from our world who traveled to another world, bringing a few humans with them, and tried to rule over them.
> 
> (And of course you don't need to use spoilers tags, this being a spoiler-friendly thread)



Well, I figured giving away one of the central theses of the series might be a bit far even for the plot spoiler friendly reader.

Those Easter Eggs are definitely real...but for Jordan are a bit besides the point, which is why they stay Easter Eggs in the text.


----------



## Dioltach

Mort said:


> Well that or the luggage at him (the dark one) no one knows for sure.



If the Luggage had eaten the Dark One, it would have taken more than one Age for him to return.


----------



## Mort

Dioltach said:


> If the Luggage had eaten the Dark One, it would have taken more than one Age for him to return.



It did, you just fell for the propaganda!


----------



## Mordhau

Mercurius said:


> Sure, but that doesn't mean it is all propaganda. And "Materese" clearly refers to Mother Theresa...although, I suppose with an open-ended cosmology, we could play with the idea that maybe the Dark One is a mega-billionaire from our world who traveled to another world, bringing a few humans with them, and tried to rule over them.
> 
> (And of course you don't need to use spoilers tags, this being a spoiler-friendly thread)



The cosmology leaves open the idea that the age before the age of legends was not our age, but a version of our age in a different spinning of the wheel.

So it might be that Materese was really called Materese in the time that is actually being remembered, but Materese is also a variation on Mother Therese from an earlier or later spinning of the wheel.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> Well, I figured giving away one of the central theses of the series might be a bit far even for the plot spoiler friendly reader.
> 
> Those Easter Eggs are definitely real...but for Jordan are a bit besides the point, which is why they stay Easter Eggs in the text.



Yeah, I hear you, although I think "the point" is whatever pleasure the reader gets from it, regardless of what Jordan says the point is.



Mordhau said:


> The cosmology leaves open the idea that the age before the age of legends was not our age, but a version of our age in a different spinning of the wheel.
> 
> So it might be that Materese was really called Materese in the time that is actually being remembered, but Materese is also a variation on Mother Therese from an earlier or later spinning of the wheel.



Yes, true, which aligns with what I said about different variations in the cycles of ages.

I tend to think, though, that Materese _is _Mother Theresa - the similarity is too close. I suppose Artur Paendrag is very close to Arthur Pendragon, and they're clearly not the same but the isomorphic, so maybe Materese is the same. But...


----------



## Maxperson

Dioltach said:


> If the Luggage had eaten the Dark One, it would have taken more than one Age for him to return.



The Luggage is stronger than the seals.


----------



## Maxperson

So after watching the new episode, it went a bit more wild with the changes than any other episode since the first.  That said, the only real disappointment I had was when Moiraine opened the waygate.  Loial was there and he was the one who should have opened it with the trefoil leaf.  I didn't see any reason why it should have been her and not him.

Edit: Also, am I misremembering or did Mat not go to the Eye of the World with the others in the book?


----------



## wicked cool

solid episode-still a little confusing for those who havent read the books why the factions are acting the way they are


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> So after watching the new episode, it went a bit more wild with the changes than any other episode since the first.  That said, the only real disappointment I had was when Moiraine opened the waygate.  Loial was there and he was the one who should have opened it with the trefoil leaf.  I didn't see any reason why it should have been her and not him.
> 
> Edit: Also, am I misremembering or did Mat not go to the Eye of the World with the others in the book?



Mat went with the others to Fal Dara.


----------



## wicked cool

just found out a major character actor left the show after season 1. Might explain the ending? its 2 bad as that person seemed to be one of the better actors on the show


----------



## Bolares

wicked cool said:


> just found out a major character actor left the show after season 1. Might explain the ending? its 2 bad as that person seemed to be one of the better actors on the show



They have already been recast for season 2


----------



## Mort

wicked cool said:


> just found out a major character actor left the show after season 1. Might explain the ending? its 2 bad as that person seemed to be one of the better actors on the show



Other than the actor playing Mat?


----------



## wicked cool

Mort said:


> Other than the actor playing Mat?



its Mat


----------



## Maxperson

I wonder if they are going to have Mat head south towards Falme, or they'll simply meet back up with him in Tar Valon later.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I wonder if they are going to have Mat head south towards Falme, or they'll simply meet back up with him in Tar Valon later.



I think the second season may see some major structural reworking, since Aviendha has already been cast: that suggests to me thst Great Hunt and the Dragon Reborn might be combined there.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> I wonder if they are going to have Mat head south towards Falme, or they'll simply meet back up with him in Tar Valon later.



That's a really good question. Of course,they do spend a month or two in Fal Dara, so he might catch up with them there. While I'm pretty sure we won't have the Amerlyn going there as in the books, she might still send some Aes Sedai (presumably Liandrin, Alanna, and potentially Verin) to report on what happened, and Mat might go with them.

Now, that Blue sister who said she was going to investigate the ships disappearing in the west... well, I'm guessing next time we'll see her she's going to be a good damene...


----------



## Mordhau

Maxperson said:


> So after watching the new episode, it went a bit more wild with the changes than any other episode since the first.  That said, the only real disappointment I had was when Moiraine opened the waygate.  Loial was there and he was the one who should have opened it with the trefoil leaf.  I didn't see any reason why it should have been her and not him.



It was her because the whole episode was about her, the choices she made and the the sacrifices she had to make,  It would have been strange to thrust Loial, (who the audience barely know) into the centre at that point.


Maxperson said:


> Edit: Also, am I misremembering or did Mat not go to the Eye of the World with the others in the book?



Probably something to do with whatever reason the actor has to leave.


----------



## Maxperson

Mordhau said:


> It was her because the whole episode was about her, the choices she made and the the sacrifices she had to make,  It would have been strange to thrust Loial, (who the audience barely know) into the centre at that point.



I don't agree.  A few lines about the Ogier, the creation of the ways and their ability to use them would have not only been sufficient to make him the center of that moment, but would also have given him a purpose for being there other than bring the others.


Mordhau said:


> Probably something to do with whatever reason the actor has to leave.



That could be.  Was production not completed before the news of his leaving came out?


----------



## Mordhau

Maxperson said:


> I don't agree.  A few lines about the Ogier, the creation of the ways and their ability to use them would have not only been sufficient to make him the center of that moment, but would also have given him a purpose for being there other than bring the others.



They could have but what would be the dramatic point?


----------



## Maxperson

Mordhau said:


> They could have but what would be the dramatic point?



To set him up as a companion with something to offer and teach the audience about the Ogier.  Moiraine still could have said something dramatic about the ways being deadly if you wanted more drama.


----------



## Mordhau

Maxperson said:


> To set him up as a companion with something to offer and teach the audience about the Ogier.  Moiraine still could have said something dramatic about the ways being deadly if you wanted more drama.



Would have disrupted the unity of the episode and could easily be done a different way at a different time.


----------



## Maxperson

Mordhau said:


> Would have disrupted the unity of the episode and could easily be done a different way at a different time.



We'll have to agree to disagree.  It wouldn't have been disruptive.


----------



## Mordhau

Maxperson said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree.  It wouldn't have been disruptive.



You did ask why they did it.  That's the reason.  You might have done it differently, but I'm pretty sure that's why they did it.


----------



## Maxperson

Mordhau said:


> You did ask why they did it.  That's the reason.



Well, no.  That MIGHT be the reason.  Or it might not.


----------



## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> So after watching the new episode, it went a bit more wild with the changes than any other episode since the first.  That said, the only real disappointment I had was when Moiraine opened the waygate.  Loial was there and he was the one who should have opened it with the trefoil leaf.  I didn't see any reason why it should have been her and not him.
> 
> Edit: Also, am I misremembering or did Mat not go to the Eye of the World with the others in the book?



Maybe they want it to be possible for human channelers to use these Ways, so that one of the protagonists can do so at need later.


----------



## Parmandur

MarkB said:


> Maybe they want it to be possible for human channelers to use these Ways, so that one of the protagonists can do so at need later.



Probably not, actually: the Ways don't get much traffic in the books.


----------



## MarkB

Parmandur said:


> Probably not, actually: the Ways don't get much traffic in the books.



Which doesn't mean they won't in the series.


----------



## Parmandur

MarkB said:


> Which doesn't mean they won't in the series.



I doubt that they will add much new  material.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> That could be. Was production not completed before the news of his leaving came out?




Set reports stated he wasn't seen during the last block of filming, which would cover the last two episodes. But the official news didn't come out until later - they wisely kept that under wraps until they hired his replacement...


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> Set reports started he wasn't seen during the last block of filming, which would cover the last two episodes. But the official news didn't come out until later - they wisely kept that under wraps until they hired his replacement...



Yeah, just have to wonder what happened there...


----------



## Bolares

I really liked this episode. Nice to see Moiraine more vulnerable, and great acting in the banishing scene


----------



## TheSword

It was full of good decisions as far as I was concerned. Not sure that Moiraine needed to be gay. That said it does correct the rather outdated notion that being gay is a phase that people grow out of, as it is implied in the books.

Siuan Sanche was awesome. Really well done by Sophie Okenedo. From the flashback to the banishment. Their twin Terangreal was cool too. I liked that.

Liandrin keeps being a great foil. She’s a delight.

loved the politics. My partner hasn’t read the books and he thought it was the best episode so far!


----------



## Bolares

TheSword said:


> Not sure that Moiraine needed to be gay.



As a gay (actually bi) I can say I loved it


----------



## MarkB

Parmandur said:


> I doubt that they will add much new  material.



I wasn't thinking in terms of "much". Just, like, one scene where they really need to get somewhere and there isn't a tall dude with a leaf around.


----------



## Bolares

TheSword said:


> Liandrin keeps being a great foil. She’s a delight.



Her face when Moiraine threatened to expose her was priceless.


----------



## MarkB

Bolares said:


> I really liked this episode. Nice to see Moiraine more vulnerable, and great acting in the banishing scene



I liked that the oath of banishment was also a statement of dedication. It was practically a marriage vow, hidden in plain sight.


----------



## Bolares

MarkB said:


> I liked that the oath of banishment was also a statement of dedication. It was practically a marriage vow, hidden in plain sight.



The faintest of finger touches means so much!


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> It was full of good decisions as far as I was concerned. Not sure that Moiraine needed to be gay. That said it does correct the rather outdated notion that being gay is a phase that people grow out of, as it is implied in the books.



That wasn't the impression I got from the books.  The impression I got was that the tower was basically like an intense all girls school and a lot of experimentation went on, not that they were temporarily lesbian and grew out of it.


----------



## Maxperson

MarkB said:


> I wasn't thinking in terms of "much". Just, like, one scene where they really need to get somewhere and there isn't a tall dude with a leaf around.



Speaking of getting somewhere, Moiraine basically travelled to get to where Suian was when they met in secret.  She was one place, invoked the One Power and then was instantly somewhere else.  That bugged me a bit as it's a lost art that gets rediscovered during the series and the rediscovery has a lot of impact on things.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

You know what really grinds my gears right now? It's just a little thing ...

Unstring your freaking bow, Rand! A Two Rivers longbowman should know better.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> Speaking of getting somewhere, Moiraine basically travelled to get to where Suian was when they met in secret. She was one place, invoked the One Power and then was instantly somewhere else. That bugged me a bit as it's a lost art that gets rediscovered during the series and the rediscovery has a lot of impact on things.



The extras state the pictures are ter'angreal. It's unclear whether the place they met actually exists, or is in the dream world, or is a pocket dimension.


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> The extras state the pictures are ter'angreal. It's unclear whether the place they met actually exists, or is in the dream world, or is a pocket dimension.



I'm pretty sure they used that in the book.


----------



## Parmandur

Thinking on the changes so far...I'm actually really impressed with how they are grounded in the books, rather than some "Producer gone rogue" situation: Perrin's wife is taken from the name of a character Perrin mentions in the book as someone he probably would have married, Siuane and Morraine's relationship is just slightly more explicit than the text (which already made it clear enough, though usually sex and sexuality are offscreen matters in the books). Definitely the work of fans who want to be true to the book, but willing to take creative risks and give it their own spin.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Am I the only one who expected the last episode to end with a disembodied voice saying "you must gather your party before venturing forth"?


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> Speaking of getting somewhere, Moiraine basically travelled to get to where Suian was when they met in secret.  She was one place, invoked the One Power and then was instantly somewhere else.  That bugged me a bit as it's a lost art that gets rediscovered during the series and the rediscovery has a lot of impact on things.



I was under the impression it was a pocket dimension of sorts. Connected to the art piece they both had in their rooms, not actually teleportation.


----------



## TheSword

Maxperson said:


> Speaking of getting somewhere, Moiraine basically travelled to get to where Suian was when they met in secret.  She was one place, invoked the One Power and then was instantly somewhere else.  That bugged me a bit as it's a lost art that gets rediscovered during the series and the rediscovery has a lot of impact on things.



It was a terangreal. The twin locked paintings. Siuan had one on her wall too. I presumed it took them to a place in the world of dreams as her clothing was different there. A secret they shared. There are a few times in the previous episode you see Moiraine looking at it.


----------



## TheSword

Maxperson said:


> That wasn't the impression I got from the books.  The impression I got was that the tower was basically like an intense all girls school and a lot of experimentation went on, not that they were temporarily lesbian and grew out of it.



“Novices and Accepted commonly enjoy these relationships as comfort during the hardships of White Tower training, but are viewed as a thing of girlhood[1] and are almost universally abandoned upon gaining the shawl. Some attempt to continue the relationships even as Aes Sedai though.”

This was the summary from the Wiki. Though I could check the source. I remember several quotes where Aes Sedai comment that pillow friends is something for novices.

I think it’s a good thing that they have addressed this. As currently Elaida and Galina where two of the few known gay characters… before Brandon Sanderson came along. We definitely didn’t want the gay-characters-are-evil trope coming along.


----------



## TheSword

What did come across really well is Siuan’s arrogance towards the hall. That eventually causes her such catastrophic proportions. That kinda came out of the blue on the books (no pun intended).


----------



## Bolares

TheSword said:


> What did come across really well is Siuan’s arrogance towards the hall. That eventually causes her such catastrophic proportions. That kinda came out of the blue on the books (no pun intended).



For me it was hard to differentiate what was a front put to hide her relationship with moiraine and what was her real arrogance


----------



## TheSword

Bolares said:


> For me it was hard to differentiate what was a front put to hide her relationship with moiraine and what was her real arrogance



Precisely. The other Aes Sedai aren’t going to know the difference.


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> “Novices and Accepted commonly enjoy these relationships as comfort during the hardships of White Tower training, but are viewed as a thing of girlhood[1] and are almost universally abandoned upon gaining the shawl. Some attempt to continue the relationships even as Aes Sedai though.”
> 
> This was the summary from the Wiki. Though I could check the source. I remember several quotes where Aes Sedai comment that pillow friends is something for novices.
> 
> I think it’s a good thing that they have addressed this. As currently Elaida and Galina where two of the few known gay characters… before Brandon Sanderson came along. We definitely didn’t want the gay-characters-are-evil trope coming along.



That doesn't contradict what I said, though.  A lot of high school kids experiment and then stop as they figure out who they are.  They aren't growing out of being gay, lesbian or bi.  They're just moving out of the phase of figuring out who they are.


----------



## CTPhipps

This seems to be a much more serious relationship in the show as the oaths are almost like marriage vows.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I was under the impression it was a pocket dimension of sorts. Connected to the art piece they both had in their rooms, not actually teleportation.



Nailed it: there are a lot of Magic items in the books that do some pretty gnarly stuff.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> For me it was hard to differentiate what was a front put to hide her relationship with moiraine and what was her real arrogance



That's a prettygoid summary of the character's entire life.


----------



## Parmandur

CTPhipps said:


> This seems to be a much more serious relationship in the show as the oaths are almost like marriage vows.



It is a development, but a grounded one.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> “Novices and Accepted commonly enjoy these relationships as comfort during the hardships of White Tower training, but are viewed as a thing of girlhood[1] and are almost universally abandoned upon gaining the shawl. Some attempt to continue the relationships even as Aes Sedai though.”
> 
> This was the summary from the Wiki. Though I could check the source. I remember several quotes where Aes Sedai comment that pillow friends is something for novices.
> 
> I think it’s a good thing that they have addressed this. As currently Elaida and Galina where two of the few known gay characters… before Brandon Sanderson came along. We definitely didn’t want the gay-characters-are-evil trope coming along.



Well, this is something I think you need to get metacommentary from the author on, because in-universe sources such as the one cited are unreliable narrators a lot of the time. I'm not sure entirely what to make of the below, but for the record:



> ROBERT JORDAN
> 
> Oh, I wanted to add something here because of gender stereotypes and so forth. Somebody asked me why didn't I have any, in another question and answer session, asked me why didn't I have any gay characters in the books. I do, but that's not my bag to bring out the question of gender stereotypes and the whole nine yards. And they're just running around doing the things that they do and you can figure out who some of them are. If you want to help them, I don't care. It's not the point if they're gay or not gay, okay?






> ROBERT JORDAN
> 
> For jofraz, I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven't been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course. Remember, Cadsuane is surprised that Shalon and Ailil were so hot to hide that they had been sharing a bed even knowing how prim and proper Cairhienin are on the surface. Well, for many it is just on the surface.








__





						Theoryland of the Wheel of Time (Robert Jordan)  : Wheel of Time Interview Search Results
					






					www.theoryland.com


----------



## Demetrios1453

There's been an accidental leak of a few very short clips from Episodes 7 and 8. Amazon has been really good at catching them and getting them taken down, but they are out there if you search for them. Most notably we see Ishamael seemingly tempting Rand with a normal life back in the Two Rivers with Egwene, and Rand doing _a lot_ of channeling. There are a couple of clips from what is obviously Tarwin's Gap, and the trollocs are getting absolutely _nuked._ And that is pretty much a literal, not metaphorical, description of the amount of power Rand is using; the amount of power Nynaeve used is truly a candle compared to Rand's sun. He apparently also gets the lead in a circle with at least Egwene and Nynaeve (and two others who are hard to make out, although one appears to be in blue, so probably Moiraine), and things get even crazier...


----------



## Aeson

I'll say this; if nothing else, the show should win some awards for costumes and set design.


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> There's been an accidental leak of a few very short clips from Episodes 7 and 8. Amazon has been really good at catching them and getting them taken down, but they are out there if you search for them. Most notably we see Ishamael seemingly tempting Rand with a normal life back in the Two Rivers with Egwene, and Rand doing _a lot_ of channeling. There are a couple of clips from what is obviously Tarwin's Gap, and the trollocs are getting absolutely _nuked._ And that is pretty much a literal, not metaphorical, description of the amount of power Rand is using; the amount of power Nynaeve used is truly a candle compared to Rand's sun. He apparently also gets the lead in a circle with at least Egwene and Nynaeve (and two others who are hard to make out, although one appears to be in blue, so probably Moiraine), and things get even crazier...



So many years on, it's easy for me to forget how gobsmacking the climax to book one really was.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Nailed it: there are a lot of Magic items in the books that do some pretty gnarly stuff.



I don't remember that Ter'angreal, though.  Still, it's a cool one.  I always felt the one place Jordan fell short was in the number of different kinds of Ter'angreal.


----------



## Zardnaar

Watching Money Heist now the latest episodes. I see the Professor but think of Logain lol.


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> Watching Money Heist now the latest episodes. I see the Professor but think of Logain lol.



Whereas when I hear "Loghain" I think of the villainous noble from Dragon Age: Origins.


----------



## Zardnaar

MarkB said:


> Whereas when I hear "Loghain" I think of the villainous noble from Dragon Age: Origins.




 Didn't play it.


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> Didn't play it.



You've missed a good RPG.


----------



## Zardnaar

MarkB said:


> You've missed a good RPG.




 We own it just never got around to playing it. Wife like Dragons Age I went with Mass Effect. 

 And gotvaddicted to other games eg Europa Unversalis/Crusader Kings/Stellaris.


----------



## Bolares

hey guys let’s just remember there are some people here that haven’t read the books (ME, I MEAN ME! ) and are trying to interact here, let’s be careful eith spoilers please


----------



## Mercurius

Bolares said:


> hey guys let’s just remember there are some people here that haven’t read the books (ME, I MEAN ME! ) and are trying to interact here, let’s be careful eith spoilers please



The title of the thread says "with book spoilers," so I don't know why spoiler warnings are necessary.


----------



## Bolares

Mercurius said:


> The title of the thread says "with book spoilers," so I don't know why spoiler warnings are necessary.



I’m just asking for them so I can keep interacting without spoiling the end of the last two episodes of the season, but I guess I shouldn’t be here then


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I’m just asking for them so I can keep interacting without spoiling the end of the last two episodes of the season, but I guess I shouldn’t be here then



I mean, probably not at that rate: there is another non-spoiler thread?


----------



## MarkB

Parmandur said:


> I mean, probably not at that rate: there is another non-spoiler thread?



So basically, we can live with book spoilers, or we can talk about the show without posting any spoilers including for current episodes, or we can start yet a third thread just for people who haven't read the books. Yeah, that's going to go well.


----------



## Parmandur

MarkB said:


> So basically, we can live with book spoilers, or we can talk about the show without posting any spoilers including for current episodes, or we can start yet a third thread just for people who haven't read the books. Yeah, that's going to go well.



Option 3 seems the most viable.


----------



## Bolares

I was just asking for a warning for the spoilers of the last two episodes, not that people stop talking about it


----------



## Bolares

A cool interview with Rosamund Pike about Moiraine's relationship with Siuan. Apparently, the "on your knees" line in the bedroom was improved by the both of them.









						'The Wheel of Time's Rosamund Pike On Show's Historic Queer Romance
					

The star of the Amazon Prime Video series discusses a surprising revelation.




					www.out.com


----------



## Demetrios1453

Bolares said:


> I was just asking for a warning for the spoilers of the last two episodes, not that people stop talking about it



Huh, I hid that info under spoilers on that post on my PC, but looking at it on my phone, it's out in the open. Sorry about that.


----------



## Bolares

Demetrios1453 said:


> Huh, I hid that info under spoilers on that post on my PC, but looking at it on my phone, it's out in the open. Sorry about that.



No worries, thanks!


----------



## MarkB

Demetrios1453 said:


> Huh, I hid that info under spoilers on that post on my PC, but looking at it on my phone, it's out in the open. Sorry about that.



I think inline spoilers (the one that blurs the text) don't work on mobile browsers. The [ SPOILER ] tag, that puts things in a separate box, does work, I think.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Funniest thing I've learned about the show this week: apparently the Swedish subtitles for the Amyrlin's title "Watcher of the Seals" didn't translate "seals" as "things that seal something away" but as... the sea mammal. So apparently she sits there and stares at seals cavorting in the water all day. And that sheds a whole new light on "breaking the Seals"...


----------



## Mercurius

I'm almost halfway through a re-read of _Eye of the World. _Some observations from the comparison:

- The overall tone of the book is younger - not quite young adult, but without the "adults only" elements that the show slips in. It was clearly written with a broader age-range in mind.

Some elements in the book that aren't present in the series:

Two Rivers: Rand talks to and kills a Trolloc in the book; Tam is more capable with the sword. Watch Hill presumably doesn't exist in the series. And of course Thom shows up in Two Rivers and travels with them from the beginning.
Baerlon is completely absent. Min (yet); Rand's encounter with the Whitecloaks; Moiraine using illusion to become giant.
Shadar Logoth: Mordeth. The mashadar is depicted as black fungus rather than mist.
Wilderness: Rand, Mat and Thom on the riverboat (including Rand's first apparent channeling*). Elyas Manchera and the wolves.

And of course, so far in the book, Logain has only been mentioned - he hasn't shown up in the actual book yet.

That's where I'm at - they're not quite at Caemlyn. Anyhow, I can see why they excised those parts and folded the essential elements into other aspects of the story. I suppose if they had done a 10-12 episode season, they could have done a full episode on Baerlon. I'm wondering if and how they might include Min. My guess is she will be written out, although who knows.

In general, to some extent, reading the book has really illustrated how the tv series feels like a summation of the books. I think they're doing a good job of it, but reading the books, I really feel the lack of depth and breadth in the series--about the world and Jordan's characteristic slow, and thus immersive, pace. Some of the confusion non-book readers experience might have been alleviated with a longer season. I think 12 would have been ideal, and I hope future seasons are longer (I'm guessing they'll be 10 episodes).
*


----------



## Mercurius

Demetrios1453 said:


> Funniest thing I've learned about the show this week: apparently the Swedish subtitles for the Amyrlin's title "Watcher of the Seals" didn't translate "seals" as "things that seal something away" but as... the sea mammal. So apparently she sits there and stares at seals cavorting in the water all day. And that sheds a whole new light on "breaking the Seals"...



She is from Tear, after all.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> I'm wondering if and how they might include Min. My guess is she will be written out, although who knows.



Kae Alexander is playing Min.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Mercurius said:


> I'm almost halfway through a re-read of _Eye of the World. _Some observations from the comparison:
> 
> - The overall tone of the book is younger - not quite young adult, but without the "adults only" elements that the show slips in. It was clearly written with a broader age-range in mind.
> 
> Some elements in the book that aren't present in the series:
> 
> Two Rivers: Rand talks to and kills a Trolloc in the book; Tam is more capable with the sword. Watch Hill presumably doesn't exist in the series. And of course Thom shows up in Two Rivers and travels with them from the beginning.
> Baerlon is completely absent. Min (yet); Rand's encounter with the Whitecloaks; Moiraine using illusion to become giant.
> Shadar Logoth: Mordeth. The mashadar is depicted as black fungus rather than mist.
> Wilderness: Rand, Mat and Thom on the riverboat (including Rand's first apparent channeling*). Elyas Manchera and the wolves.
> 
> And of course, so far in the book, Logain has only been mentioned - he hasn't shown up in the actual book yet.
> 
> That's where I'm at - they're not quite at Caemlyn. Anyhow, I can see why they excised those parts and folded the essential elements into other aspects of the story. I suppose if they had done a 10-12 episode season, they could have done a full episode on Baerlon. I'm wondering if and how they might include Min. My guess is she will be written out, although who knows.
> 
> In general, to some extent, reading the book has really illustrated how the tv series feels like a summation of the books. I think they're doing a good job of it, but reading the books, I really feel the lack of depth and breadth in the series--about the world and Jordan's characteristic slow, and thus immersive, pace. Some of the confusion non-book readers experience might have been alleviated with a longer season. I think 12 would have been ideal, and I hope future seasons are longer (I'm guessing they'll be 10 episodes).
> *



Min has been cast for Season 1, so she's showing up soon.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> I'm wondering if and how they might include Min. My guess is she will be written out, although who knows.



I double checked: Alexander is on the cast list for thr two remaining episodes as Min Farshaw: so she is probably in Fal Dara, and will be involved with using her prophetic gift for leading into the climax.


----------



## Mordhau

Mercurius said:


> I'm almost halfway through a re-read of _Eye of the World. _Some observations from the comparison:
> 
> - The overall tone of the book is younger - not quite young adult, but without the "adults only" elements that the show slips in. It was clearly written with a broader age-range in mind.
> 
> Some elements in the book that aren't present in the series:
> 
> Two Rivers: Rand talks to and kills a Trolloc in the book; Tam is more capable with the sword. Watch Hill presumably doesn't exist in the series. And of course Thom shows up in Two Rivers and travels with them from the beginning.
> Baerlon is completely absent. Min (yet); Rand's encounter with the Whitecloaks; Moiraine using illusion to become giant.
> Shadar Logoth: Mordeth. The mashadar is depicted as black fungus rather than mist.
> Wilderness: Rand, Mat and Thom on the riverboat (including Rand's first apparent channeling*). Elyas Manchera and the wolves.
> 
> And of course, so far in the book, Logain has only been mentioned - he hasn't shown up in the actual book yet.
> 
> That's where I'm at - they're not quite at Caemlyn. Anyhow, I can see why they excised those parts and folded the essential elements into other aspects of the story. I suppose if they had done a 10-12 episode season, they could have done a full episode on Baerlon. I'm wondering if and how they might include Min. My guess is she will be written out, although who knows.
> 
> In general, to some extent, reading the book has really illustrated how the tv series feels like a summation of the books. I think they're doing a good job of it, but reading the books, I really feel the lack of depth and breadth in the series--about the world and Jordan's characteristic slow, and thus immersive, pace. Some of the confusion non-book readers experience might have been alleviated with a longer season. I think 12 would have been ideal, and I hope future seasons are longer (I'm guessing they'll be 10 episodes).
> *



It was a thing at the time for almost all Fantasy Epics to be Bildungsromans (Coming of Age stories).  The whole chosen one cliche is a part of that*.  Think of the Belgarian, or Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, or even A Song of Ice and FIre with it's five Stark childen.

* The chosen one is much misunderstood.  It's basically a metaphor for the growing individual coming to realise they have adult responsibilities and that living up to them is a part of growing up.  It's not really meant to be taken literally.  (Of course, once fantasy epics started to increasingly sprawl into ensemble rather than individual character focused stories, then that whole metaphor gets muddied anyway).


----------



## Parmandur

Mordhau said:


> It was a thing at the time for almost all Fantasy Epics to be Bildungsromans (Coming of Age stories).  The whole chosen one cliche is a part of that*.  Think of the Belgarian, or Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, or even A Song of Ice and FIre with it's five Stark childen.
> 
> * The chosen one is much misunderstood.  It's basically a metaphor for the growing individual coming to realise they have adult responsibilities and that living up to them is a part of growing up.  It's not really meant to be taken literally.  (Of course, once fantasy epics started to increasingly sprawl into ensemble rather than individual character focused stories, then that whole metaphor gets muddied anyway).



Originally, the three guys were going to be one character, who was middle aged. Jordan came to feel that his plan for the character was too much trauma and event for one person, and that younger characters might sell better.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> Originally, the three guys were going to be one character, who was middle aged. Jordan came to feel that his plan for the character was too much trauma and event for one person, and that younger characters might sell better.



Interesting tidbit - didn't know that.


----------



## Maxperson

Mercurius said:


> Moiraine using illusion to become giant.



I could have sworn I saw her do that in the show.


----------



## Mercurius

Mordhau said:


> It was a thing at the time for almost all Fantasy Epics to be Bildungsromans (Coming of Age stories).  The whole chosen one cliche is a part of that*.  Think of the Belgarian, or Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, or even A Song of Ice and FIre with it's five Stark childen.
> 
> * The chosen one is much misunderstood.  It's basically a metaphor for the growing individual coming to realise they have adult responsibilities and that living up to them is a part of growing up.  It's not really meant to be taken literally.  (Of course, once fantasy epics started to increasingly sprawl into ensemble rather than individual character focused stories, then that whole metaphor gets muddied anyway).



Yeah, I know, and while I agree that it is metaphorical, I think there are different approaches to this idea that go beyond simply "growing up with adult responsibilities," which has somewhat mundane connotations -- like paying taxes and stopping at a red light.  

Jung would say it has to do with individuation, which is a process whereby the person becomes truly whole, a "full human" (my words, not his) through integrating the conscious and the subconscious. Campbell's hero's journey links this to world mythologies, holding that all--or at least most--myths describe the same basic underlying process. Humanistic and transpersonal psychologies elaborated and varied these themes. For instance, Abraham Maslow discussed "self-actualization" and James Hillman described it as "acorn theory," whereby our seed of potential ("acorn") desires to actualize (as the "oak").

Intrinsic to the idea of the chosen one is a unique destiny of some kind, and a quest to actualize that destiny. There are basic patterns by which this occurs--thus Campbell's framework--but the details of how it unfolds are different for all of us. But my point is that--at least in the framings of Jung, humanistic, and transpersonal psychology--it goes beyond mere psychological maturation. The "child" is not an actual child, but humanity in its pre-actualized form, even larval stage. Thus what we call "adulthood" is merely the basis from which a further, deeper path can unfold, or the "quest for the Grail." Meaning, the Chosen One motif uses the framework of a child becoming an adult as a symbol for the process of self-actualization. Meaning, we're all "chosen" to fulfill our on uniqueness, something that no one else can do, and this process only starts once we leave the home of childhood, be it the Shire or Two Rivers.

I don't think most fantasy authors who employ this motif are consciously using it in that way, but that the mythic archetype points towards this "higher path." Or to put it another way, the "outward journey" of the Chosen One is symbolic of an "inward journey" of self-actualization and/or enlightenment that is not a child becoming an adult, but an adult becoming fully human.


----------



## Mordhau

Mercurius said:


> Yeah, I know, and while I agree that it is metaphorical, I think there are different approaches to this idea that go beyond simply "growing up with adult responsibilities," which has somewhat mundane connotations -- like paying taxes and stopping at a red light.
> 
> Jung would say it has to do with individuation, which is a process whereby the person becomes truly whole, a "full human" (my words, not his) through integrating the conscious and the subconscious. Campbell's hero's journey links this to world mythologies, holding that all--or at least most--myths describe the same basic underlying process. Humanistic and transpersonal psychologies elaborated and varied these themes. For instance, Abraham Maslow discussed "self-actualization" and James Hillman described it as "acorn theory," whereby our seed of potential ("acorn") desires to actualize (as the "oak").
> 
> Intrinsic to the idea of the chosen one is a unique destiny of some kind, and a quest to actualize that destiny. There are basic patterns by which this occurs--thus Campbell's framework--but the details of how it unfolds are different for all of us. But my point is that--at least in the framings of Jung, humanistic, and transpersonal psychology--it goes beyond mere psychological maturation. The "child" is not an actual child, but humanity in its pre-actualized form, even larval stage. Thus what we call "adulthood" is merely the basis from which a further, deeper path can unfold, or the "quest for the Grail." Meaning, the Chosen One motif uses the framework of a child becoming an adult as a symbol for the process of self-actualization. Meaning, we're all "chosen" to fulfill our on uniqueness, something that no one else can do, and this process only starts once we leave the home of childhood, be it the Shire or Two Rivers.
> 
> I don't think most fantasy authors who employ this motif are consciously using it in that way, but that the mythic archetype points towards this "higher path." Or to put it another way, the "outward journey" of the Chosen One is symbolic of an "inward journey" of self-actualization and/or enlightenment that is not a child becoming an adult, but an adult becoming fully human.



I'm very sceptical of anything Jungian and think most of what's going on is happening on a simpler and more straightforward structural level.

At it's most basic level the chosen one is''chosen' because they, and no one else are the protagonist of the story.  It's basically a technique for taking the fundamental focus of the story and blowing it up.

In epic fantasy (and in Star Wars) the fundamental end point of the protagonist is to choose between good and evil.  By making the protagonist's choice one that has cosmic consequences the story can be blown up to the 'epic' level rather than taking place at an individual level*.  Growing up is frequently used to encapsulate this, because it moves from the potential to choose to the necessity to choose.**

* The danger of this is the choice can end up being extremely vacuous, between evil in the abstract and good in the abstract.  Epic fantasy works best when it can focus on the individual as a metonym (the part that stands for the whole) of the larger cosmic struggle (Luke's struggle to redeem his father, Frodo's decision to be kind to Smeagol).

** Obviously a lot of this is highly influenced by Tolkien, but it is not actually how it works in Tolkien where the narrative is both more complex and more catholic.  LOTR also is not a coming of age story.


----------



## HawaiiSteveO

Sorry if duplicate post, noticed this today . . . Rosamund Pike reading the book on audible   

https://www.audible.ca/pd/The-Eye-o...08c-7cb2190a487c&pf_rd_r=3Y51QVDNYYAZG7708HC8


----------



## Parmandur

HawaiiSteveO said:


> Sorry if duplicate post, noticed this today . . . Rosamund Pike reading the book on audible
> 
> https://www.audible.ca/pd/The-Eye-o...08c-7cb2190a487c&pf_rd_r=3Y51QVDNYYAZG7708HC8



Wow, she does a great performance there: the sample is a pretty good case for Jordan's prose as good, readable text, and a good example of why it took him several hundred pages per major plot point.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> Wow, she does a great performance there: the sample is a pretty good case for Jordan's prose as good, readable text, and a good example of why it took him several hundred pages per major plot point.



I'm tempted to get it, it would make reading the book faster AND help me keep up with my english listening skills (if you don't practice it all goes away).


----------



## HawaiiSteveO

Bolares said:


> I'm tempted to get it, it would make reading the book faster AND help me keep up with my english listening skills (if you don't practice it all goes away).



I used my credit on it, agree on sample sounds great!


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I'm tempted to get it, it would make reading the book faster AND help me keep up with my english listening skills (if you don't practice it all goes away).



There is also a 14 part audio book series that covers the entire line of books that is one of the best reviewed and bestselling audio books of the past 30 years: they are such consistent sellers for Audiible, that I believed they partly inspired Amazon to pursue the TV project.


----------



## Demetrios1453

OK, now _that_ was an excellent episode. Other than the momentary love-triangle thing that was over in about 3 minutes (and was probably an after-effect of Machin Shin messing with all their minds), that was packed with lots of good, good WoT stuff...


----------



## Bolares

That was one bad ass pregnant lady


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> That was one bad ass pregnant lady



That was my favorite scene of the episode(loved the rest of it as well).  I also loved how they made a point to have her remove her helmet(significant for those of us who have read the book).


----------



## Demetrios1453

Bolares said:


> That was one bad ass pregnant lady



That's the Aiel for you. Can't wait until they show the ones that aren't 9 months pregnant and in labor fighting!


----------



## Zardnaar

Demetrios1453 said:


> OK, now _that_ was an excellent episode. Other than the momentary love-triangle thing that was over in about 3 minutes (and was probably an after-effect of Machin Shin messing with all their minds), that was packed with lots of good, good WoT stuff...




 This. Pretty damn good episode. 

 And Witcher season 2 went up while watching. That can wait until tomorrow.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Zardnaar said:


> This. Pretty damn good episode.
> 
> And Witcher season 2 went up while watching. That can wait until tomorrow.



The funny thing is over on Reddit, while most people have liked the episode, there are still those who are screaming "Worst episode yet! An Aiel killing while not veiled?" And, no, this isn't satirical, there are actually posts saying this (as well as saying the same over equally nit-picky things). You know, maybe cut a bit of slack for a woman in labor and being ambushed?


----------



## Mordhau

Demetrios1453 said:


> The funny thing is over on Reddit, while most people have liked the episode, there are still those who are screaming "Worst episode yet! An Aiel killing while not veiled?" And, no, this isn't satirical, there are actually posts saying this (as well as saying the same over equally nit-picky things). You know, maybe cut a bit of slack for a woman in labor and being ambushed?



They're loving it!  For the diehard fan, finding other diehard fans to complain with about lack of adherence to canon is the very reason for being.


----------



## Bolares

Zardnaar said:


> This. Pretty damn good episode.
> 
> And Witcher season 2 went up while watching. That can wait until tomorrow.



Was going to watch the witcher today, but got tickets to see spiderman today sooo.....


----------



## TheSword

Yeah it was a great episode. Tam’s confession revealed in flashback was great to see. Tam finding Tigraine in the snow and the fight before was very cool.

I can’t help feeling the series is doing a very clever job in showing book readers things they never got to see in the books but that happened in the story … capture of Logain, Rand’s birth etc. I watch it and find myself wondering what’s going to happen which is no mean feat!

Loved the ways, very eerie. Loved Rand’s reveal with the door and the trollock. Like Lan’s backstory reveal. It was all done very very well.

very excited about the last episode and whether we will see the forsaken. Beyond Baalzamon.


----------



## Bolares




----------



## TheSword

Bolares said:


> View attachment 148489



Ha ha


----------



## TheSword

My prediction is that the next episode will start with the original prologue. Introducing the original Dragon and Ishmael. Alternatively it might be saved for the start of season 2.

I’m really looking forward to watching the series through in full after Xmas day


----------



## eyeheartawk

Not sure I really get making Min so much older than Rand if they plan on shipping them. Like, that'd be weird, right? 

That anticlimactic Dragon reveal.

Where's Loial? Why is he even on this trip? If they didn't need him to open to the ways why is he along?

The forced romantic triangle between Egwene, Rand and Perrin. Not only was it completely unnecessary it showed up and ceased to exist within the span of a single scene, really strange. 

All that aside, I quite like the episode and considering they had to pick up the pieces with Mat's actor not coming back from the COVID pause and are only working with 8 episodes to adapt the entire first book I think it's going reasonably well.


----------



## eyeheartawk

TheSword said:


> very excited about the last episode and whether we will see the forsaken. Beyond Baalzamon.



Good question, we've only seen him so far. It looks like they are keeping the thing where they all think he's the dark one for awhile. That aside I wouldn't be surprised if they cut out Aginor and/or Balthamel from the show. Which Forsaken are which is hard enough to keep track of in the books (much less with the reincarnations and name/gender changes that happen later on). If I were running the show I would really cut the number of Forsaken in half if not more.


----------



## TheSword

Interestingly the reason the forsaken had impact at the end of book 1 was that they had been built up like a catechism by all the characters. “_The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time”._

There was one brief mention of this in an earlier episode iirc but little else. I don’t think the forsaken will have the impact at this point. Unless they give a lot of exposition at the start of the next episode I can’t see them using them.


----------



## Bolares

So, the shifty merchant guy that is following them, he's giving me sooo many creepy vibes.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> So, the shifty merchant guy that is following them, he's giving me sooo many creepy vibes.



As well he ought. His POV chapters are massively disturbing.


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> Was going to watch the witcher today, but got tickets to see spiderman today sooo.....



Don't do it!  9 out of 10 people who go to that movie can't get home.


----------



## Maxperson

eyeheartawk said:


> Not sure I really get making Min so much older than Rand if they plan on shipping them. Like, that'd be weird, right?



I thought Min just said that Tam was the first vision she saw.  She started young, so should could have been 6 or 7, making her not that much older than Rand.


eyeheartawk said:


> Where's Loial? Why is he even on this trip? If they didn't need him to open to the ways why is he along?



That's what I was wondering.  He should have been the one to open the ways.


eyeheartawk said:


> The forced romantic triangle between Egwene, Rand and Perrin. Not only was it completely unnecessary it showed up and ceased to exist within the span of a single scene, really strange.



More than one scene technically.  In the ways when Machin Shin was talking to the group before they got out, Perrin hears the voice telling him that he loved another more than his wife.  It's not much, but I'm pretty sure that was connected to that scene.


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> Interestingly the reason the forsaken had impact at the end of book 1 was that they had been built up like a catechism by all the characters. “_The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time”._



And that the forsaken were still used even after all this time as bedtime stories to scare children into behaving.  "You'd better not do that again or Lanfear will come and get you!


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> And that the forsaken were still used even after all this time as bedtime stories to scare children into behaving.  "You'd better not do that again or Lanfear will come and get you!



Maybe they are trying to make the main characters a but none of viewer surrogates than they were in the books, to justify exposition? The novels can digress into lengthy interior monologs exposition, the show not so much.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Maxperson said:


> And that the forsaken were still used even after all this time as bedtime stories to scare children into behaving.  "You'd better not do that again or Lanfear will come and get you!



Which is why I was really taken aback by that one scene where Sad Warder Man was praying at a shrine he made to idols of all the Forsaken. In the books people even dreaded saying their names. The fact that somebody would do this was really weird to me. They're not really selling that aspect of how dread and fear of the Forsaken have inundated the culture. At least, the more or less folklore versions of them, anyway.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Maybe they are trying to make the main characters a but none of viewer surrogates than they were in the books, to justify exposition?



I don't understand this sentence.  Could you clarify?


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I don't understand this sentence.  Could you clarify?



They seem to have made the Two Rivers brigade more ignorant of the wider world and history than they were in the books. Perhaps this is to allow thebshowrunners to have other characters explain things in dialogue, thst the book could handle in third person narration?


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> They seem to have made the Two Rivers brigade more ignorant of the wider world and history than they were in the books. Perhaps this is to allow thebshowrunners to have other characters explain things in dialogue, thst the book could handle in third person narration?



Gotcha.  That's clearer!


----------



## Zardnaar

Demetrios1453 said:


> The funny thing is over on Reddit, while most people have liked the episode, there are still those who are screaming "Worst episode yet! An Aiel killing while not veiled?" And, no, this isn't satirical, there are actually posts saying this (as well as saying the same over equally nit-picky things). You know, maybe cut a bit of slack for a woman in labor and being ambushed?




 Well they haven't told us what an Aiel is yet. I had my suspicion but it's been 21 years since I read the book.


----------



## Maxperson

Zardnaar said:


> Well they haven't told us what an Aiel is yet. I had my suspicion but it's been 21 years since I read the book.



We know that they have red hair.


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> We know that they have red hair.



And they are bad ass fighters


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> And they are bad ass fighters



Oh, boy howdy. They've already cast a major Aiel character for the next season (top ten in number of POVs in the books), so we will start to see more soon.


----------



## Demetrios1453

eyeheartawk said:


> Not sure I really get making Min so much older than Rand if they plan on shipping them. Like, that'd be weird, right?
> 
> That anticlimactic Dragon reveal.
> 
> Where's Loial? Why is he even on this trip? If they didn't need him to open to the ways why is he along?
> 
> The forced romantic triangle between Egwene, Rand and Perrin. Not only was it completely unnecessary it showed up and ceased to exist within the span of a single scene, really strange.
> 
> All that aside, I quite like the episode and considering they had to pick up the pieces with Mat's actor not coming back from the COVID pause and are only working with 8 episodes to adapt the entire first book I think it's going reasonably well.



Loial was needed to read the Guidings. I assume he wandered off to Fal Dara's library during the later part of the episode.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Zardnaar said:


> Well they haven't told us what an Aiel is yet. I had my suspicion but it's been 21 years since I read the book.



Thom specifically mentioned the veiling when they buried the dead Aiel a few episodes ago. So it's been mentioned, but for some reason some people aren't cutting this episode's Aiel any slack for, you know, being in the middle of childbirth...


----------



## eyeheartawk

Demetrios1453 said:


> Loial was needed to read the Guidings. I assume he wandered off to Fal Dara's library during the later part of the episode.



Yeah, that's true.

The whole thing is just kind of _off_. If channeling is required to use the ways, how were the Ogiers in the way back using them regularly? How was Padain Fain literally using it in the same episode, and he, presumably (we don't know for sure in the show, I guess, technically), cannot channel. 

If you were just going to invent the need to have Moraine open the ways, she's a learned Aes Sedai, they could just as easily say she can read the guidings too then. 

If I had to guess, I would say that this was something they had to add to explain why they couldn't just re-open the way entrance to go get Mat after whatever happened off-screen happened.


----------



## Demetrios1453

eyeheartawk said:


> Yeah, that's true.
> 
> The whole thing is just kind of _off_. If channeling is required to use the ways, how were the Ogiers in the way back using them regularly? How was Padain Fain literally using it in the same episode, and he, presumably (we don't know for sure in the show, I guess, technically), cannot channel.
> 
> If you were just going to invent the need to have Moraine open the ways, she's a learned Aes Sedai, they could just as easily say she can read the guidings too then.
> 
> If I had to guess, I would say that this was something they had to add to explain why they couldn't just re-open the way entrance to go get Mat after whatever happened off-screen happened.



There's a picture in the extras showing Fain at the Waygate holding a leaf-shaped key. Like with the picture of Rand and Tam escaping the trollocs that was released with the Episode 1 extras, this will presumably be shown in flashback. Presumably Loial didn't have one since the Ogier no longer use the Ways.


----------



## Bolares

eyeheartawk said:


> The whole thing is just kind of _off_. If channeling is required to use the ways, how were the Ogiers in the way back using them regularly?



Seing the bonus content, Padain is holding some kind of leaf thingy (?) I've heard that there is something with ways and leafs.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Bolares said:


> Seing the bonus content, Padain is holding some kind of leaf thingy (?) I've heard that there is something with ways and leafs.



Oh, there absolutely is. 

But then we'd be working backwards to explain how the ways would be used, in the normal way, wouldn't we? 

I think the whole thing feels so janky and off is because it is. If they used the leaf to open the door initially, they could just use again to open the door again and not have to worry about Machin Shin. 

They're now going to have to explain how Padain Fain has knowledge of a method to use the ways that Loial, the Ogier, whose people created them, does not know.


----------



## TheSword

eyeheartawk said:


> Oh, there absolutely is.
> 
> But then we'd be working backwards to explain how the ways would be used, in the normal way, wouldn't we?
> 
> I think the whole thing feels so janky and off is because it is. If they used the leaf to open the door initially, they could just use again to open the door again and not have to worry about Machin Shin.
> 
> They're now going to have to explain how Padain Fain has knowledge of a method to use the ways that Loial, the Ogier, whose people created them, does not know.



Loial might know the method, and just not have a key?

Padan Fain clearly does know how because he’s a tool of Ishmael. Just as he knew in the books.

Morraine having way to open them with channelling (as she does in the books, albeit destructively) doesn’t preclude there being a non-channelling way.

With the ways being so in the open and dramatic in this version kinda means the idea of a simple and obvious key less likely. It stands to reason that you would take the key with you if you were a selfish bastard and therefore keep your own use of the ways while inhibiting others.


----------



## Demetrios1453

eyeheartawk said:


> Oh, there absolutely is.
> 
> But then we'd be working backwards to explain how the ways would be used, in the normal way, wouldn't we?
> 
> I think the whole thing feels so janky and off is because it is. If they used the leaf to open the door initially, they could just use again to open the door again and not have to worry about Machin Shin.
> 
> They're now going to have to explain how Padain Fain has knowledge of a method to use the ways that Loial, the Ogier, whose people created them, does not know.



Presumably the keys were all removed by the Ogier, and Loial, being young and basically a runaway, doesn't have one. I would imagine the Ogier keep them locked up tight due to the condition the Ways are in right now (although in situations like this, some always escape). Like several other things so far, the series seems to be setting up a mystery, and explaining it later.


----------



## Bolares

TheSword said:


> Padan Fain clearly does know how because he’s a tool of Ishmael.



I KNEW HE WAS A TOOL!!


----------



## Bolares

I liked how ruthless Moiraine was in pursuing her goal in this episode. She sees darkness in Mat, she can't have Mat with her in the eye of the world, so she puts the red ajah after him. A dick move? sure. better then risking the Dragon Reborn turning to the Dark One. (I assume this is all different from the books because the actor bailed)


----------



## eyeheartawk

Bolares said:


> I liked how ruthless Moiraine was in pursuing her goal in this episode. She sees darkness in Mat, she can't have Mat with her in the eye of the world, so she puts the red ajah after him. A dick move? sure. better then risking the Dragon Reborn turning to the Dark One. (I assume this is all different from the books because the actor bailed)



Yes.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Ah, I've seen someone point out that Loial wouldn't have been around later in the episode since he would have gone back to the Waygate to help the soldiers make sure it was closed.


----------



## TheSword

Bolares said:


> I liked how ruthless Moiraine was in pursuing her goal in this episode. She sees darkness in Mat, she can't have Mat with her in the eye of the world, so she puts the red ajah after him. A dick move? sure. better then risking the Dragon Reborn turning to the Dark One. (I assume this is all different from the books because the actor bailed)



Yes it is, but also Matt serves no purpose being there in the books. So I totally understand the decision.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I liked how ruthless Moiraine was in pursuing her goal in this episode. She sees darkness in Mat, she can't have Mat with her in the eye of the world, so she puts the red ajah after him. A dick move? sure. better then risking the Dragon Reborn turning to the Dark One. (I assume this is all different from the books because the actor bailed)



They seem to have pushed up some events from the third book for Mat, which is fine by me because that's when his arc started moving.


----------



## Zardnaar

Demetrios1453 said:


> Thom specifically mentioned the veiling when they buried the dead Aiel a few episodes ago. So it's been mentioned, but for some reason some people aren't cutting this episode's Aiel any slack for, you know, being in the middle of childbirth...




 Yeah but they haven't been explained as such nor did they identify the lady as Aiel onscreen. 

 At the start of the show I realized it was a flashback.

 3 good fantasy shows on atm. Gonna watch Witcher season 2 tonight.


----------



## Bolares

Zardnaar said:


> Yeah but they haven't been explained as such nor did they identify the lady as Aiel onscreen.
> 
> At the start of the show I realized it was a flashback.
> 
> 3 good fantasy shows on atm. Gonna watch Witcher season 2 tonight.



As a non book reader here’s what I got from them:
-red hair
-good fighters
-rare in this part of the world.

So when I saw pregnant lady, I assumed she was an Aiel


----------



## Zardnaar

Bolares said:


> As a non book reader here’s what I got from them:
> -red hair
> -good fighters
> -rare in this part of the world.
> 
> So when I saw pregnant lady, I assumed she was an Aiel




 I assumed that as well. But I've read parts of the wiki and the first few bookslong time ago. 

 It's not actually that relevant atm anyway. I guessed it was Rand's mother. 

 Wife didn't pick up on that until later in the show as she is unfamiliar be with the source material.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> As a non book reader here’s what I got from them:
> -red hair
> -good fighters
> -rare in this part of the world.
> 
> So when I saw pregnant lady, I assumed she was an Aiel



Moraine holds her cards really close to her chest in the book...but she was in hindsight extremely suspicious of the 6'6" 20 year old who looked like an Aiel in a community of people who looked nothing like the Aiel, given what she did know of the circumstances of the Dragon's birth.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Good episode. It's really rocketing along.

They haven't explained the heron-marked blade yet. Am I misremembering, or by this point in the story hadn't that gotten Rand into trouble a couple of times already? It makes his father's backstory very interesting and deep -- might have made the reveal in this episode stronger.


----------



## Parmandur

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Good episode. It's really rocketing along.
> 
> They haven't explained the heron-marked blade yet. Am I misremembering, or by this point in the story hadn't that gotten Rand into trouble a couple of times already? It makes his father's backstory very interesting and deep -- might have made the reveal in this episode stronger.



Yhat really kicks into gear with book 2, I believe, when he actually knows how to use it enough to get into trouble.


----------



## MarkB

eyeheartawk said:


> Where's Loial? Why is he even on this trip? If they didn't need him to open to the ways why is he along?



I'm starting to think that maybe they had a logistical problem during production, like maybe Loial's actor wasn't available during some of the shooting schedule. We had what felt like a missing scene a couple of episodes ago, where we should have seen him meet Nynaeve in the Tower before bringing her to see Rand and Mat, and now in this episode he's prominent in the whole Ways sequence and then absent for almost the entire time they're inside the city.


----------



## Mordhau

Demetrios1453 said:


> Thom specifically mentioned the veiling when they buried the dead Aiel a few episodes ago. So it's been mentioned, but for some reason some people aren't cutting this episode's Aiel any slack for, you know, being in the middle of childbirth...



It didn't really bother me but it seemed odd that they interpreted the veil as being something like a mask that stops you breathing properly and therefore she takes it off.

The problem with this is that a group of badass warriors who wear masks that inhibit their breathing is silly.

Mind you, I'm not sure, if it's really possible to have the veil and not have it inhibit breath, so maybe it's the basic concept that is flawed (but if so it's probably not the best idea to draw attention to it).


----------



## Parmandur

Mordhau said:


> It didn't really bother me but it seemed odd that they interpreted the veil as being something like a mask that stops you breathing properly and therefore she takes it off.
> 
> The problem with this is that a group of badass warriors who wear masks that inhibit their breathing is silly.
> 
> Mind you, I'm not sure, if it's really possible to have the veil and not have it inhibit breath, so maybe it's the basic concept that is flawed (but if so it's probably not the best idea to draw attention to it).



I mean, childbirth is extenuating circumstances, and the environment of Tar Valon is very different from the Wastes.


----------



## Mordhau

Parmandur said:


> I mean, childbirth is extenuating circumstances, and the environment of Tar Valon is very different from the Wastes.



And fighting for your life generally would not be?

Medieval Knights had helmets that inhibited their breathing, but they at least got massive protection from it (and even then they may have often fought with their visors open).

A custom that makes it harder to breathe would not last very long for a culture of warriors.


----------



## Parmandur

Mordhau said:


> And fighting for your life generally would not be?
> 
> Medieval Knights had helmets that inhibited their breathing, but they at least got massive protection from it (and even then they may have often fought with their visors open).
> 
> A custom that makes it harder to breathe would not last very long for a culture of warriors.



It's a custom that preserves body moisture and protects from sunburn.


----------



## Mordhau

Parmandur said:


> It's a custom that preserves body moisture and protects from sunburn.



But the series suggests inhibits breathing.  

So you take if _off_ when you start fighting.  Rather than the opposite.


----------



## Parmandur

So, I'm about 7 hours into the Rosamund Pike audio book now, which brings me up to about episode 2 in terms of the shows plot.

There is an incredible amount of information in these early chapters that sets up events from 13 books latter very intentionally. This is one of the greatest fests of literary planning, except for the pacing (the original outline called for a trilogy, and the first planned book actually was supposed to end with what became the the climax of book 3...).

I am also struck that, perhaps more than ever Tolkien, this would be unfilmable in q strict one to one fashion: almost everything written is Rand's internal POV cut with information that he misses due to his cognitive biases.


----------



## Parmandur

Mordhau said:


> But the series suggests inhibits breathing.
> 
> So you take if _off_ when you start fighting.  Rather than the opposite.



A true badass will fight with one hand tied behind their back. Another point is to minimize broadcasting information to an opponent.


----------



## Zardnaar

Parmandur said:


> A true badass will fight with one hand tied behind their back. Another point is to minimize broadcasting information to an opponent.




 It looked badass on camera. 
 That's all you need.


----------



## Mordhau

Parmandur said:


> A true badass will fight with one hand tied behind their back. Another point is to minimize broadcasting information to an opponent.



You cannot see my face as I am wearing a veil, but if you could you would see that I am smiling.
Why is that?
You see I am not one-armed.


----------



## Parmandur

Zardnaar said:


> It looked badass on camera.
> That's all you need.



For sure. As long as they can keep up that quality, they are golden.


----------



## Zardnaar

Parmandur said:


> For sure. As long as they can keep up that quality, they are golden.




 Series overall been pretty good. 

 Might be better than GoT comparing season 1 to season 1.


----------



## Maxperson

Demetrios1453 said:


> There's a picture in the extras showing Fain at the Waygate holding a leaf-shaped key. Like with the picture of Rand and Tam escaping the trollocs that was released with the Episode 1 extras, this will presumably be shown in flashback. Presumably Loial didn't have one since the Ogier no longer use the Ways.



They leaves(keys) were left on the waygates themselves.  Both inside and out.


----------



## Maxperson

eyeheartawk said:


> I think the whole thing feels so janky and off is because it is. If they used the leaf to open the door initially, they could just use again to open the door again and not have to worry about Machin Shin.



They could have just done what they did in the books and have a dramatic narrow escape through the Faldara waygate and have the wind talking to them through it, but unable to get them.


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> I liked how ruthless Moiraine was in pursuing her goal in this episode. She sees darkness in Mat, she can't have Mat with her in the eye of the world, so she puts the red ajah after him. A dick move? sure. better then risking the Dragon Reborn turning to the Dark One. (I assume this is all different from the books because the actor bailed)



It also sets him up to be in the tower to meet and spar with Galad and Gawyn.


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> As a non book reader here’s what I got from them:
> -red hair
> -good fighters
> -rare in this part of the world.
> 
> So when I saw pregnant lady, I assumed she was an Aiel



She didn't have red hair, though.


----------



## Maxperson

Mordhau said:


> But the series suggests inhibits breathing.
> 
> So you take if _off_ when you start fighting.  Rather than the opposite.



That wasn't the impression I got.  The impression I got was that she was in labor and breathing very heavily because of that, and just wanted her face clear.  Not that she couldn't breathe in it.


----------



## Bolares

If she keeps the veil you can’t see her acting. Her acting made the scene


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> She didn't have red hair, though.



Didn’t she?


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> Didn’t she?



Nope.  She's blond.


----------



## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> She didn't have red hair, though.



Redder than Rand's. Her, I immediately associated with the earlier description of red-haired warriors. Rand, I didn't even consider until Loial basically stated it outright.


----------



## TheSword

Mordhau said:


> It didn't really bother me but it seemed odd that they interpreted the veil as being something like a mask that stops you breathing properly and therefore she takes it off.
> 
> The problem with this is that a group of badass warriors who wear masks that inhibit their breathing is silly.
> 
> Mind you, I'm not sure, if it's really possible to have the veil and not have it inhibit breath, so maybe it's the basic concept that is flawed (but if so it's probably not the best idea to draw attention to it).



People have drawn breath while wearing veils for a long time. Veils do exist… they’re particularly sensible in sandy dry climates.

Don’t forget that Tigraine isn’t actually an Aiel


----------



## Maxperson

MarkB said:


> Redder than Rand's. Her, I immediately associated with the earlier description of red-haired warriors. Rand, I didn't even consider until Loial basically stated it outright.



Watch when she takes off the helm(or whatever it is) and leans back against the rock.  It's blond.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> It also sets him up to be in the tower to meet and spar with Galad and Gawyn.



Decent way to introduce the Trakand family.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> Don’t forget that Tigraine isn’t actually an Aiel



She has _Ji_


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Good episode. It's really rocketing along.
> 
> They haven't explained the heron-marked blade yet. Am I misremembering, or by this point in the story hadn't that gotten Rand into trouble a couple of times already? It makes his father's backstory very interesting and deep -- might have made the reveal in this episode stronger.



For it to achieve it's full power it has to eat a pond full of goldfish.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Well, there was a leak of Episode 8 images, showing the Seanchan, before it was taken back down in haste. There were a few shots of some Seanchan on their ships, with damene and sul'dam at the front, using the Power to propel the ships through the waves. The bracelets and collars are there, but due to the angle, it's hard to tell if they have leashes connecting the two. And the Seanchan troops have suitably weird insectoid armor...


----------



## Mordhau

Demetrios1453 said:


> Well, there was a leak of Episode 8 images, showing the Seanchan, before it was taken back down in haste. There were a few shots of some Seanchan on their ships, with damene and sul'dam at the front, using the Power to propel the ships through the waves. The bracelets and collars are there, but due to the angle, it's hard to tell if they have leashes connecting the two. And the Seanchan troops have suitably weird insectoid armor...



Yech!  I think I'd mostly blocked out that particular aspect of the books.


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> Well, there was a leak of Episode 8 images, showing the Seanchan, before it was taken back down in haste. There were a few shots of some Seanchan on their ships, with damene and sul'dam at the front, using the Power to propel the ships through the waves. The bracelets and collars are there, but due to the angle, it's hard to tell if they have leashes connecting the two. And the Seanchan troops have suitably weird insectoid armor...



Season 2 is going to be lit.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Parmandur said:


> Season 2 is going to be lit.



I'm just wondering how much this episode is going to mess with show-only fans. I'm assuming we'll cold open with the Age of Legends, meaning suddenly everything is sci-fi, which will definitely throw them off. Then, we'll presumably end with a Seanchan cliffhanger, which, again will leave them wondering just what the heck is going on, and that they'll have to wait until next season to find out. Then again, that's pretty much how book readers react when the Seanchan appear...


----------



## wicked cool

what is going on with Nynaeve? One minute shes angry (shes almost always angry), taps into powers that nobody really blinks at and then stalks Lan. Was all of this in the book?

What is Loial? is his power the ability to navigate the portals?


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> I'm just wondering how much this episode is going to mess with show-only fans. I'm assuming we'll cold open with the Age of Legends, meaning suddenly everything is sci-fi, which will definitely throw them off. Then, we'll presumably end with a Seanchan cliffhanger, which, again will leave them wondering just what the heck is going on, and that they'll have to wait until next season to find out. Then again, that's pretty much how book readers react when the Seanchan appear...



The Return is pretty shocking, I'd say that was about when it became apparent this story was going to get weird.


wicked cool said:


> what is going on with Nynaeve? One minute shes angry (shes almost always angry), taps into powers that nobody really blinks at and then stalks Lan. Was all of this in the book?
> 
> What is Loial? is his power the ability to navigate the portals?



She has several anger management issues: indeed, her issue with Channeling is that she can only do it when she is angry, so she has to work herself up when she wants to accomplish anything. The novels make the Lan/Nyneave relationship a little slower and subtle, though it moves into high romance.

She's my favorite.

Loial is an Ogier. Think if you combined Elves and Dwarves.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Demetrios1453 said:


> I'm just wondering how much this episode is going to mess with show-only fans. I'm assuming we'll cold open with the Age of Legends, meaning suddenly everything is sci-fi, which will definitely throw them off. Then, we'll presumably end with a Seanchan cliffhanger, which, again will leave them wondering just what the heck is going on, and that they'll have to wait until next season to find out. Then again, that's pretty much how book readers react when the Seanchan appear...



Heh. Weirdly I'm looking forward to hearing how they do the lisping noble Seanchan accents. If they do them that way that is.


----------



## TheSword

I think the Seanchan represent the series’ other great existential threat to balance the ‘ultimate evil’ of the Dark One/Forsaken/Trollocks. It helps that several Seanchan characters are really likeable. While at the same time the Seanchan do things that are absolutely abhorrent. I’ve always found Egwene’s Seanchan scenes to be both extremely emotional and horrific. “I will not be caged again!”

I’m fascinated to see how they approach them in series 2.


----------



## TheSword

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Heh. Weirdly I'm looking forward to hearing how they do the lisping noble Seanchan accents. If they do them that way that is.



I suspect they won’t. Culture and costume will differentiate them I suspect.


----------



## Parmandur

So, finished Chapter 37 of Eye of the World as read by Rosamund Pike, a bit over 20 hours of reading in: just about caught up to Episode 4 of the show, though I'm in the part of the narrative that basically got glossed over entirely so a bit hard to say.

I am really convinced on this go through that a faithful cinematic adaptation is not strictly impossible, but is highly impractical and motivated likely to ever happen (yhe best approach, probably, would be long form animation). Gives me amlot of peace looming at the show as it's own thing seperate from the tremendously detailed and intricate books.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Well, Episode 8 was pretty good, especially Rand's and Ishy's psychological battle at the Eye. Fain was in fine form. A few changes are eyebrow raising, but we'll have to see how they play out in Season 2. The Seanchan cliffhanger was suitably intimidating, although they really needed to show more people being the victim of that attack...

And I really need to stay away from Reddit immediately after each episodes. I've never seen so many people miss the point of certain things, as well as hysterically over-reacting to something they _thought_ happened, but obviously hadn't. And book purists with their massive bullet point lists of each and every change and how each and every one ruins everything forever can go rot in the pits of Shayol Ghul....


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> Well, Episode 8 was pretty good, especially Rand's and Ishy's psychological battle at the Eye. Fain was in fine form. A few changes are eyebrow raising, but we'll have to see how they play out in Season 2. The Seanchan cliffhanger was suitably intimidating, although they really needed to show more people being the victim of that attack...
> 
> And I really need to stay away from Reddit immediately after each episodes. I've never seen so many people miss the point of certain things, as well as hysterically over-reacting to something they _thought_ happened, but obviously hadn't. And book purists with their massive bullet point lists of each and every change and how each and every one ruins everything forever can go rot in the pits of Shayol Ghul....



Yeah, the Reddit discourse is more toxic than normal.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Parmandur said:


> Yeah, the Reddit discourse is more toxic than normal.



Yeah, I know that from long experience there. But after several weeks of the same thing immediately after each episode's release, I needed to vent lol.

On the other hand, reading the non-book reader threads there, I was 100% spot on with my predictions that the sci-fi opening and the Seanchan cliffhanger would completely blow their minds.


----------



## Maxperson

This episode was both great and jarring, like episode 1.  Some of the changes weren't as smooth or in my mind necessary like they have been in episodes 2-7.  Also, the beginning scene where Lew Therin is talking to the Amyrlin Seat has a minor error in it which really doesn't take away from how good that scene was.  At the end she calls him the Dragon Reborn, instead of just the Dragon.  Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

What I really liked.

1. The opening scene.
2. Showing us a circle of female channelers.
3. Tarwin's Gap battle.
4. Rand's psychological battle.
5. The Seanchan's entrance.
6. Padan Fain's part in the show.

What I really didn't like.

1. Where the Horn of Valere was found.
2. That Rand's psychological battle was really the one Egwene went through in the books.  They should have given him one of his own.
3. Moiraine being stilled at the Eye of the World.  

What I'm unsure about.

1. The part where it looked like Loial was killed.
2. The change to channelers burning themselves out where it kills instead of stills.


----------



## Zaukrie

If five women can do that.... What could the Aes Sadai do? And, why not do that on the other side of the gate?


----------



## Demetrios1453

Zaukrie said:


> If five women can do that.... What could the Aes Sadai do? And, why not do that on the other side of the gate?



Nynaeve and Egwene are _significantly _above all Aes Sedai in power. As for their positioning? Well, chaos of battle? That is one of the things I had raised eyebrows about...


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> This episode was both great and jarring, like episode 1.  Some of the changes weren't as smooth or in my mind necessary like they have been in episodes 2-7.  Also, the beginning scene where Lew Therin is talking to the Amyrlin Seat has a minor error in it which really doesn't take away from how good that scene was.  At the end she calls him the Dragon Reborn, instead of just the Dragon.  Rand is the Dragon Reborn.
> 
> What I really liked.
> 
> 1. The opening scene.
> 2. Showing us a circle of female channelers.
> 3. Tarwin's Gap battle.
> 4. Rand's psychological battle.
> 5. The Seanchan's entrance.
> 6. Padan Fain's part in the show.
> 
> What I really didn't like.
> 
> 1. Where the Horn of Valere was found.
> 2. That Rand's psychological battle was really the one Egwene went through in the books.  They should have given him one of his own.
> 3. Moiraine being stilled at the Eye of the World.
> 
> What I'm unsure about.
> 
> 1. The part where it looked like Loial was killed.
> 2. The change to channelers burning themselves out where it kills instead of stills.




What happened to Moiraine looked more like a tied-off shield rather than stilling. Also, it didn't break the warder bond.


----------



## Parmandur

Zaukrie said:


> If five women can do that.... What could the Aes Sadai do? And, why not do that on the other side of the gate?



It's about getting enough Aes Sedai in the right place, at the right time: the Blight is a couple thousand miles long. And when push comes to shove, the Dark One has Channelers on the other side. Indeed, thw entire first 1e and a half books are a setup for a wargame scenario, essentially, that takes place in the final book to provide background and context while Jordan moves the pieces around the board (that part he finished writing).


----------



## Zaukrie

Parmandur said:


> It's about getting enough Aes Sedai in the right place, at the right time: the Blight is a couple thousand miles long. And when push comes to shove, the Dark One has Channelers on the other side. Indeed, thw entire first 1e and a half books are a setup for a wargame scenario, essentially, that takes place in the final book to provide background and context while Jordan moves the pieces around the board (that part he finished writing).



None of which is in the show. But thanks for telling me what's coming.


----------



## Mordhau

Zaukrie said:


> None of which is in the show. But thanks for telling me what's coming.



The thread does say 'with book spoilers".


----------



## Parmandur

Zaukrie said:


> None of which is in the show. But thanks for telling me what's coming.



Just providing some context: "the Last Battle is coming" is barely a spoiler, to be honest.

Not conveying the scale of the world and giving some logistical context seems to be a flaw of the show shortening the cross country travel and detailed descriptions.


----------



## Zaukrie

Mordhau said:


> The thread does say 'with book spoilers".



Yup. I skipped pages, and should not have come back.


----------



## Maxperson

Zaukrie said:


> None of which is in the show. But thanks for telling me what's coming.



All of that was in the show.  The blight was in the show.  The dark one having a channeler was in this last episode.  And moving towards the last battle with this being the first step was in this last episode.  The only thing that post revealed was that the show's scope is smaller, which can't be helped due to the medium involved.  The show just can't encompass it all, so it's not really a spoiler to say it was larger in the books.  The show isn't going to be like that.


----------



## Mordhau

One thing I just noticed - if they're going with the books interpretation of the three oaths and Moirane has been stilled, then she can now lie, and was in fact lying to Rand when she said she couldn't.


----------



## TheSword

I agree 100% with @Maxperson about the episodes likes and dislikes.

However there are a couple of things that really trouble me, and make me think the series may not get very far past series two.


The characters all take themselves very very seriously. There is almost no humor, and when someone does tell a joke it’s usually very bleak, or slightly off. Like a joke that they won’t have to worry about something if they’re all dead. Comfortable humor is essential in making characters human and likeable. It doesn’t have to be all the time, but there should be some. Look at the difference this makes between Thor 2 and Thor 3.


The series flits around and doesn’t explain stuff. There’s not even any concept of space or location because of the jumping around. It makes it very hard to understand what’s going on. The mumbling diction of a lot of the characters means explanations are often one liners tossed into conversations that get missed. Maybe individually there would be far too much to ever explain thoroughly, but in which case either slow down or don’t put it in.


Several characters still aren’t very likeable. This is kinda linked to my first point. Too many are either surly like Lord Agelmar, or in the still in the ‘Luke Skywalker before Obi-wan dies’ phase. Complaining and whining about things. I find that gets tired fast. I’m worried that people who don’t know the story won’t care about characters.

I hope I’m wrong, but I think these are the three main reasons why it’s getting three stars and not four or five.

NB. I really hate that if Nyneave burnt herself out that she could be healed by Egwene. That really rankled probably more so than anything else. It also seemed that the destruction of the trollocs at the end was far too powerful.


----------



## MarkB

TheSword said:


> NB. I really hate that if Nyneave burnt herself out that she could be healed by Egwene.



I'm not entirely sure that she was. Visually, it didn't really seem like the power was originating from Egwene, so much as she was triggering Nynaeve to heal herself. Which I know we're told earlier that Aes Sedai can't do, but then again it's Nynaeve.


----------



## Ryujin

My one gripe is that someone who wasn't strong enough to become an Aes Sedai was channeling the power of at least two women who were more than powerful enough, on their own, to make that rank. I don't use 24 gauge wire to carry 220 volt, 3 phase.


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> NB. I really hate that if Nyneave burnt herself out that she could be healed by Egwene. That really rankled probably more so than anything else.



They changed it to damage and death, not stilling, which means healing the damage is all it takes to get better.


TheSword said:


> It also seemed that the destruction of the trollocs at the end was far too powerful.



It was supposed to be Rand that did it all by himself and the book describes it even more powerfully I believe.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> It was supposed to be Rand that did it all by himself and the book describes it even more powerfully I believe.



Yeah, nobody else does much more than go "holy smokes, the Dragon!" while goes full nuclear. It's kind of bewildering and confusing g un the book, to be honest


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Yeah, nobody else does much more than go "holy smokes, the Dragon!" while goes full nuclear. It's kind of bewildering and confusing g un the book, to be honest



I don't remember it being confusing.


----------



## TheSword

Maxperson said:


> I don't remember it being confusing.



I remember it being very straightforward. Rand fights Aginor for the raw power in the Eye of the World then confronts Baalzamon. He then uses that power to destroy the trollocs at Tarwins Gap. Earning the loyalty of the Shienarans (and the border landers) for the Dragon reborn.

…or in this case the Dragon Reborn reborn.


----------



## TheSword

Parmandur said:


> Yeah, nobody else does much more than go "holy smokes, the Dragon!" while goes full nuclear. It's kind of bewildering and confusing g un the book, to be honest



I think many people think it’s the creator made flesh too.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> So, finished Chapter 37 of Eye of the World as read by Rosamund Pike, a bit over 20 hours of reading in: just about caught up to Episode 4 of the show, though I'm in the part of the narrative that basically got glossed over entirely so a bit hard to say.
> 
> I am really convinced on this go through that a faithful cinematic adaptation is not strictly impossible, but is highly impractical and motivated likely to ever happen (yhe best approach, probably, would be long form animation). Gives me amlot of peace looming at the show as it's own thing seperate from the tremendously detailed and intricate books.



I don't have the book on me, but Rand and Mat just arrived in Four Kings, so I think in the same general region.

Anyhow, while I agree with the gist of what you say in the second paragraph, I think it is possible to have a "faithful cinematic adaptation" while still simplifying it for the screen. Meaning, cutting out Baerlon is OK, so too Mordeth. But I tend to take more issue with removing elements that bring the world and story to life, like the non-existence of the White Bridge in the show. It isn't necessary for the story, but brings the world to life a bit.

I also don't like little changes like Loial not opening the Ways, or no mention of the word "ta'veren" (although that may still be coming).


Maxperson said:


> This episode was both great and jarring, like episode 1.  Some of the changes weren't as smooth or in my mind necessary like they have been in episodes 2-7.  Also, the beginning scene where Lew Therin is talking to the Amyrlin Seat has a minor error in it which really doesn't take away from how good that scene was.  At the end she calls him the Dragon Reborn, instead of just the Dragon.  Rand is the Dragon Reborn.



One could argue that, given the cyclical nature of tie, Lews Therin was _also _a Dragon Reborn, but that the "Dragon" is reborn at the end of each Age.


----------



## Maxperson

Mercurius said:


> I also don't like little changes like Loial not opening the Ways, or no mention of the word "ta'veren" (although that may still be coming).



They've mentioned Ta'veren several times in the show, starting in episode 1.  


Mercurius said:


> One could argue that, given the cyclical nature of tie, Lews Therin was _also _a Dragon Reborn, but that the "Dragon" is reborn at the end of each Age.



They didn't know that, though.  In the age of legends, nobody remembered any prior Dragon, so Lews Therin was the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn.


----------



## Mercurius

One element of the series that I find a bit awkward from a world-building sense, is the hodge-podge multiculturalism. I have no issue with the showrunners making it (far) more multicultural than in the books, but as a world-builder, the lack of any internal consistency is annoying. 

The only vaguely consistent element that I've seen is that Borderlanders seem to be Asian. This could be developed in an interesting way, if it was implied that they migrated from Shara at some point in the past. But starting at the beginning, the Two Rivers looked more like contemporary Brooklyn than it did an isolated mountain region set in any part of the world. Meaning, it isn't that it didn't look like Scotland; it didn't look like the Andes or Papua New Guinea, either. 

I mean, I _suppose _one could argue that in the future that is Randland, all ethnicities would have mixed (just as some say, eventually we'll all look like Brazilians...which isn't a bad thing). But even so, I would think homogeneity would make more sense, so maybe everyone looks like Aram (if not everyone being that annoyingly handsome).

And before you get into a tither about what may seem--on a shallow reading--me complaining about the prevalence of POC, that is not _at all _what I am saying, so please don't go there. I am talking about world-building aesthetics and integrity, and the rather important tenets of verisimilitude and internal consistency. In that regard, Wheel of Time is an absolute mess.

What I think they _should _have done is decide on different regions of the continent having more specific ethnic characteristics, modeling them after real-world types, if only for the sake of drawing upon pools of actors. They could still have Nynaeve be played by the same actress given her origin as coming from somewhere other than the Two Rivers, although Egwene and Perrin would make less sense, or at least require a bit of alteration to their backstories. Again, they only really did this with the Borderlands, and maybe Siuan Sanche and the folks of the south (Tear, I believe).

And don't get me started on Rand's mom looking like a Scotswoman....a pale-skinned desert people? Hmm...


----------



## Mercurius

Maxperson said:


> They've mentioned Ta'veren several times in the show, starting in episode 1.



Oh, I missed that.


Maxperson said:


> They didn't know that, though.  In the age of legends, nobody remembered any prior Dragon, so Lews Therin was the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn.



Yeah, but it is implied in their knowledge of time. Everyone seems to know that people are reborn, again and again, so why wouldn't the Dragon be reborn again and again?

Meaning, I think it is an easy adjustment or clarification to the lore.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> And don't get me started on Rand's mom looking like a Scotswoman....a pale-skinned desert people? Hmm...



That, at least is straight from the book.

The fact of the matter is that ethnographic accuracy is not really a thing for TV and movies.


----------



## Maxperson

Mercurius said:


> And don't get me started on Rand's mom looking like a Scotswoman....a pale-skinned desert people? Hmm...



There's a good reason for her to look like that.


----------



## Maxperson

Mercurius said:


> Oh, I missed that.



No worries.  We all miss things.


Mercurius said:


> Yeah, but it is implied in their knowledge of time. Everyone seems to know that people are reborn, again and again, so why wouldn't the Dragon be reborn again and again?



Yes, but they don't name their kids, "Lew Therin Telamon Reborn" or "Mierin Reborn."  I mean, everyone is reborn, so it literally goes without saying. 

Lews Therin Telamon earned the appellation Dragon at some point during the War of Power. He wasn't born with it, so they wouldn't have added "reborn" to that in any case.


----------



## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> No worries.  We all miss things.
> 
> Yes, but they don't name their kids, "Lew Therin Telamon Reborn" or "Mierin Reborn."  I mean, everyone is reborn, so it literally goes without saying.
> 
> Lews Therin Telamon earned the appellation Dragon at some point during the War of Power. He wasn't born with it, so they wouldn't have added "reborn" to that in any case.



As a non-book-reader, calling him the Dragon Reborn did a better job of tying in that scene and character with what Rand was going through.

The one thing that didn't really work for me was the sudden introduction of the little statuette McGuffin-thing that Rand would have to channel through in order to win. It serves an okay purpose in clueing Moiraine in to his true intentions at the end, but for viewers it basically comes out of nowhere, to the extent that I half-expected it to be some kind of trick to misdirect Rand's power, perhaps let Moiraine capture it for her own use.


----------



## Maxperson

MarkB said:


> As a non-book-reader, calling him the Dragon Reborn did a better job of tying in that scene and character with what Rand was going through.



If I hadn't read the books, I don't think I would have had difficulty tying in a scene naming the man who is going to fight the Dark One, Dragon, to the future Dragon Reborn.  Especially since he was going to be doing in a way that would corrupt the One Power, clearly indicating this was a scene set in the past.  They've talked over and over again about people being reborn.


MarkB said:


> The one thing that didn't really work for me was the sudden introduction of the little statuette McGuffin-thing that Rand would have to channel through in order to win. It serves an okay purpose in clueing Moiraine in to his true intentions at the end, but for viewers it basically comes out of nowhere, to the extent that I half-expected it to be some kind of trick to misdirect Rand's power, perhaps let Moiraine capture it for her own use.



Yeah.  Add that to the list of things that I didn't like.  Rand gets that little statue in a different way and it represents(in the books at least) more than just what Moiraine told him. He didn't get it until after the Eye of the World encounter.


----------



## Mercurius

Maxperson said:


> There's a good reason for her to look like that.



Well, I don't remember if the Aiel were pale in the books - it has been 25 years since I ready any of them other than Eye. It doesn't make sense, though, from a purely anatomical sense, unless she was from the northern wastes.


----------



## Mercurius

Maxperson said:


> No worries.  We all miss things.
> 
> Yes, but they don't name their kids, "Lew Therin Telamon Reborn" or "Mierin Reborn."  I mean, everyone is reborn, so it literally goes without saying.
> 
> Lews Therin Telamon earned the appellation Dragon at some point during the War of Power. He wasn't born with it, so they wouldn't have added "reborn" to that in any case.



Yeah, I still think it makes sense - especially coming from the Amyrlin Seat. It is acknowledging that he's not the "first Dragon," with the assumption being that a singular soul is reborn every age to fulfill a certain role.


----------



## Digital M@

So far I have really enjoyed the show. with 8 episodes a season and maybe 7 seasons, the whole story needs to be condensed to no more than 56 hours. For reference the first book is a 24 hour audio book and there are 14 books. I didn't mind having Perrin married, and Matt have family issues. those changes make the 3 males have distinctly different backgrounds and motivations/challenges even though they are all the same age and come from the same small village.

I like how in episode 7 we learn about the conversation between Rand and Tam with the fever ranting.  It shows that information that readers thought glossed over or emitted can come back when the characters are ready to share with the audience. 

The sets are solid and costumes have been good and the special effects for the weaves match the theme.  Moiraine has been very well adapted to screen, keeping her strength and sense of authority mixed with her compassion.  Nynaeve is better than the books.  She seems less evil and childish than she does in the book.  In the book this young 20 something girls knows better about everything than every other person on the planet.  She threatens and belittles everyone who disagrees with her and she never grows. I hated her character in the book.  In main introduction in the book talks about the switch she carries to hit people that act in ways she does not approve of and then she threatens Tom with the switch if he doesn't leave the inn for a woman's circle meeting or some such.

I am trying to just enjoy what they create.  The story as read is 280+ hours of reading and I have not tried to storyboard it down to 56 hours so I am not going to nit pick each decision.  My wife has not read the books and has enjoyed the show (minus the white cloak scenes as they are pretty disturbing). 

GoT first season was spectacular as was the first book.  It was the best of all of the seasons and books.  I think this show will be more consistent through its seasons than GoT as the story will have more focus. 

The story would benefit by adding more humor and light moments to keep the tension not feeling forced.  The traveling people should have been more friendly in their introduction and down time scenes should be mixed with laughter or warmth.

​​


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> Well, I don't remember if the Aiel were pale in the books - it has been 25 years since I ready any of them other than Eye. It doesn't make sense, though, from a purely anatomical sense, unless she was from the northern wastes.



Extremely pale, red hair and light colors all around. Already as of  hapter 37, Rand has been called out as looking like an Aiel due to his light coloring and height.

It's a founder effect, anyways: the entire population that set up in the Wastes after the Breaking were pale.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> Extremely pale, red hair and light colors all around. Already as of  hapter 37, Rand has been called out as looking like an Aiel due to his light coloring and height.
> 
> It's a founder effect, anyways: the entire population that set up in the Wastes after the Breaking were pale.



In my re-read, I thought he was called out for looking like the Aiel due to his height and hair, not his skin tone. But I'll take your word for it.


----------



## Mercurius

Digital M@ said:


> So far I have really enjoyed the show. with 8 episodes a season and maybe 7 seasons, the whole story needs to be condensed to no more than 56 hours. For reference the first book is a 24 hour audio book and there are 14 books. I didn't mind having Perrin married, and Matt have family issues. those changes make the 3 males have distinctly different backgrounds and motivations/challenges even though they are all the same age and come from the same small village.
> 
> I like how in episode 7 we learn about the conversation between Rand and Tam with the fever ranting.  It shows that information that readers thought glossed over or emitted can come back when the characters are ready to share with the audience.
> 
> I am trying to just enjoy what they create.  The story as read is 280+ hours of reading and I have not tried to storyboard it down to 56 hours so I am not going to nit pick each decision.



While I appreciate your optimism and agree with your general approach of enjoying it for what it is and feeling they are doing an overall good job of it, I'm a bit more concerned than you are that--by the time they wrap up the series, say after 6-8 seasons, they're going to have cut away so much of it that it will have greatly damaged the overall story. 

I've been wondering how they're going to adequately tell the full story, but was coming at it from a different angle. I was thinking that if they're taking the one season per book approach, there's no way they're going to run through 14 seasons. I thought maybe they would extend the seasons to 10 or 12 episodes, but evidently season 2 is also only 8 episodes. 

I think that's a big mistake: short seasons. I don't know why they're only doing 8 episodes, when 10 seems like the bare minimum and 12 would be better. I mean, from a viewing standpoint, I feel disappointed that the season is already over. It felt like it was just getting going.

On the other hand, Jordan is infamous for his over-writing, and certainly they don't have to try to cover anywhere close to every sub-plot. As I was discussing with someone in PMs, from what I've heard, he really could have condensed books 8-10 to one book. Maybe condense books 1-7 to 4, 8-10 to 1, and 11-14 to 2 and you've got 7 seasons. Still, that doesn't feel like enough, especially in only 56 episodes.

The danger is that it could end up feeling like a Cliff Notes version of the "real" story. Game of Thrones did a good job of avoiding that feeling, as did the LotR films (which were far more close to the books in terms of translating the majority of the books to film). I was already starting to feel that by the 2nd episode of Wheel of Time.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Maxperson said:


> I don't remember it being confusing.



It's hugely confusing on the first read. I just re-read it (on my 3rd or 4th re-read) and only this time figured out that Rand didn't do anything to Agenor, but that the latter simply and idiotically burned himself out by using too much power from the Eye. The teleporting was without previous precident, as was Rand using those steps to reach Ishy's domain (which was weird even by later lore; it's presumably a variation on Skimming). And what happened when Rand cut Ishy's cord was also unclear on first reading. It's a mess of an ending that only works because it's got some epic bits as Rand wrecks the Shadowspawn army.


----------



## John R Davis

Haven't read the books. 
Just about followed it and enjoyed the TV series. Episode 8 was very good ( and enjoyed it more than Witcher 2.8)


----------



## pming

Hiya!


Mercurius said:


> One element of the series that I find a bit awkward from a world-building sense, is the hodge-podge multiculturalism. I have no issue with the showrunners making it (far) more multicultural than in the books, but as a world-builder, the lack of any internal consistency is annoying.



I was _just_ going to post my thoughts about this myself. 
I binge watched the season on the 23rd/24th. I also was expecting to see a wide variety of human-types (in every way), and was looking forward to seeing how the producers saw various people. But when watching it...I was honestly confused and couldn't keep track of who was who, who was from where, who was who's wife/husband or mother/father. Quite distracting, taxing and really REALLY pulled me out of the suspension of disbelief.

This continued for a good 4 or 5 episodes (about half the season) until I at least had a grasp of who the 6 or 7 main characters were.



Mercurius said:


> The only vaguely consistent element that I've seen is that Borderlanders seem to be Asian.



Agreed! That threw me for a loop. I had trained my brain at that point to accept that there was no "actual people/cultures with shared characteristics"...then BLAM! "Well, except for the Asians. They all look alike...mostly..." LOL! As someone with the last name Ming, I found that amusing (even though I don't really look Asian; my dad does when he laughs; my grandpa, great grandpa, etc...yup...definitely Chinese). Probably wasn't supposed to be though... I have a bit of a dry/dark sense of humour I guess. 



Mercurius said:


> This could be developed in an interesting way, if it was implied that they migrated from Shara at some point in the past. But starting at the beginning, the Two Rivers looked more like contemporary Brooklyn than it did an isolated mountain region set in any part of the world. Meaning, it isn't that it didn't look like Scotland; it didn't look like the Andes or Papua New Guinea, either.



Yup. Confusing and jumbled. More like a haphazard conglomeration of survivors from a world-apocalypse forced to live together than a tight-nit community with a shared history. I just didn't buy it I guess.



Mercurius said:


> What I think they _should _have done is decide on different regions of the continent having more specific ethnic characteristics, modeling them after real-world types, if only for the sake of drawing upon pools of actors. They could still have Nynaeve be played by the same actress given her origin as coming from somewhere other than the Two Rivers, although Egwene and Perrin would make less sense, or at least require a bit of alteration to their backstories. Again, they only really did this with the Borderlands, and maybe Siuan Sanche and the folks of the south (Tear, I believe).
> 
> And don't get me started on Rand's mom looking like a Scotswoman....a pale-skinned desert people? Hmm...



Again, I concur. As I stated above... "not a location of people with a history....more like a rag-tag fugitive fleet of people forced to settle in some area".

Maybe they could have done some explaining as to why Two Rivers was so 'multicultural'. Maybe we'll get something like that later. They had an opportunity when they did the 'flashback' to the last Dragon (Ep 8 ), with a thriving city with flying vehicles and everything.

That said... I did enjoy it overall. I don't think anything stood out to me as "...ugh... why...?". Then again, nothing stood out to me as "...ooohh... cool...!" either. Probably because everyone seemed to be haphazardly tossed together, mixed up, then thrown randomly to the winds...then the DM just rolled some random dice and looked on a "human races" table for each character, regardless of any consistency. So...hmmm...

I give it a solid 6 / 10. Entertaining, some neat stuff, but nothing very memorable or surprising. I mean, Nynaeve dies...but that's ok, she gets better 2 minutes later.  They had a chance to make it at least memorable...but they chickened out.

^_^

Paul L. Ming


----------



## wicked cool

Was this close to the ending  of book 1. Would I be completely lost if I picked up book 2


----------



## Parmandur

wicked cool said:


> Was this close to the ending  of book 1. Would I be completely lost if I picked up book 2



I mean...yes, you would be lost. I don't think it's an unfair adaptation, per se, but there is a lot of material from the first book that didn't make it in that if you want to check out the books, you'll want to go for book 1. Whole characters and subots were cut.


----------



## Maxperson

pming said:


> give it a solid 6 / 10. Entertaining, some neat stuff, but nothing very memorable or surprising. I mean, Nynaeve dies...but that's ok, she gets better 2 minutes later.  They had a chance to make it at least memorable...but they chickened out.



She didn't die.  Her eyes never burned out all the way.  She was dying and then Egwene healed her by accident.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> I mean...yes, you would be lost. I don't think it's an unfair adaptation, per se, but there is a lot of material from the first book that didn't make it in that if you want to check out the books, you'll want to go for book 1. *Whole characters and subots were cut.*



And some were changed pretty drastically.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> And some were changed pretty drastically.



Enough where the plot moving forward will be altered. I am glad that they have a writer whose main job is to work out the longterm implications of every change, so I have some faith that the story they are telling will work out on it's own two feet.

But going for the books, starting at the beginning is the way to go, and treat it as a separate story. Going through the audio book really hits home to me how unadaptable, in any realistic sense, the story is by the book: too much interiority to work the same on film, it is too literary to work straight across mediums.


----------



## Mercurius

pming said:


> Yup. Confusing and jumbled. More like a haphazard conglomeration of survivors from a world-apocalypse forced to live together than a tight-nit community with a shared history. I just didn't buy it I guess.



Yep. This would have made sense if the apocalypse occurred a few hundred years before, but it actually occurred several thousand years before.


----------



## Mercurius

wicked cool said:


> Was this close to the ending  of book 1. Would I be completely lost if I picked up book 2



I partially agree with Parmandur, but think you could also find a good plot summary of book 1, and then start reading with book 2.

But you may find just reading book 1 enjoyable - it has a lot more depth than the show.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Good final season episode, but it left me pretty confused as a book reader. I'll admit it's been quite a while since Eye of the World and the Great Hunt, but as I recall ...


Morainne wasn't stilled at the end, right? And weren't all the kids with her?
Rand does wander off, I think? I'm forgetting.
The Horn was not in Fal Dara (I don't recall where it was, just that it eventually turns up and my favorite character eventually blows it)
Wasn't the broken seal in a box with the Dragon's regalia? And the Eye was a giant pool of saidin?

I don't mind the changes ... just wondering how the Great Hunt becomes the Great Hunt.

The Forerunners arriving was awesome though.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Mercurius said:


> Yep. This would have made sense if the apocalypse occurred a few hundred years before, but it actually occurred several thousand years before.



There were two semi-apocalypses since then, each about 1000 years apart, the Trolloc Wars and Artur Hawkwing's conquests. Each wrecked nations and sent populations all over.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Good final season episode, but it left me pretty confused as a book reader. I'll admit it's been quite a while since Eye of the World and the Great Hunt, but as I recall ...
> 
> 
> Morainne wasn't stilled at the end, right? And weren't all the kids with her?
> Rand does wander off, I think? I'm forgetting.
> The Horn was not in Fal Dara (I don't recall where it was, just that it eventually turns up and my favorite character eventually blows it)
> Wasn't the broken seal in a box with the Dragon's regalia? And the Eye was a giant pool of saidin?
> 
> I don't mind the changes ... just wondering how the Great Hunt becomes the Great Hunt.
> 
> The Forerunners arriving was awesome though.




Moiraine appears to have been shielded and not stilled from the way the weaves looks. In the books neither happened, and, yes everyone went to the Eye, but besides Rand, no one did anything important there (everyone else either ran or were taken out by the Forsaken within seconds).

The Horn was at the Eye. Moving it to Fal Dara is no big difference...

Rand went off on his own in _The Dragon Reborn_. He may just meet up with everyone hunting the Horn, or they may just have him do his TDR plot and have him go straight to Tear (via Cairhien, as Cairhien characters have been cast).


----------



## Maxperson

Demetrios1453 said:


> The Horn was at the Eye. Moving it to Fal Dara is no big difference...



Other than completely diminishing the mystery of the horn and where it was.  I think it was a bad move to remove it from the Eye of the World.


----------



## Mercurius

Demetrios1453 said:


> There were two semi-apocalypses since then, each about 1000 years apart, the Trolloc Wars and Artur Hawkwing's conquests. Each wrecked nations and sent populations all over.



And? 1000 or 3000 years ago doesn't make that much of a difference. Either way, a population in a small mountain community would be more homogenous.


----------



## TheSword

Mercurius said:


> And? 1000 or 3000 years ago doesn't make that much of a difference. Either way, a population in a small mountain community would be more homogenous.



Of all the things I find jarring about this series, skin colour of the cast definitely isn’t on the list. Everyone mixed because they got over their racism 3000 years before. People aren’t going to start segregating again.

The fact that there is almost no foreshadowing, probably because of a desperate need to avoid exposition. Means there’s no build up to the Horn of the Hunt.


----------



## TheSword

pming said:


> Agreed! That threw me for a loop. I had trained my brain at that point to accept that there was no "actual people/cultures with shared characteristics"...then BLAM! "Well, except for the Asians. They all look alike...mostly..." LOL! As someone with the last name Ming, I found that amusing (even though I don't really look Asian; my dad does when he laughs; my grandpa, great grandpa, etc...yup...definitely Chinese). Probably wasn't supposed to be though... I have a bit of a dry/dark sense of humour I guess.



I think Lord Agelmar and his sister are both east Asian because, well they are brother and sister. The rest of the borderlanders are a mix like everywhere else. Look at the other borderlanders Uno, Masema and Lord Ingtar.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Another confusion point: is Loial dead?


----------



## MarkB

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Another confusion point: is Loial dead?



He was pretty thoroughly stabbed. Do we have any reason to think he isn't?


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

MarkB said:


> He was pretty thoroughly stabbed. Do we have any reason to think he isn't?



He has a lot of play in the book series, though I'm not sure how much is 100% critical.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Another confusion point: is Loial dead?



Maybe when one of the clerics gets back from outside he will be healed?

I think the ambiguity was deliberate.


----------



## Parmandur

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Another confusion point: is Loial dead?



The ahowrunner clarified that he lived.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> The fact that there is almost no foreshadowing, probably because of a desperate need to avoid exposition. Means there’s no build up to the Horn of the Hunt.



Yeah, that's a problem compared to the books.

 Going back, Eye of the World has foreshadowing for the entire 14 book series: Jordan wasn't joking when he claimed to have the major events all worked out from the start, even if he had some problems executing the points efficiently. it is both choked with foreshadowing, but it mostly doesn't feel that way because it is weaved in subtly. Hard to do that amount of information in 8 episodes of a visual medium.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Parmandur said:


> The ahowrunner clarified that he lived.



Beyond that, his actor has been in Season 2 filming, as has Uno's. The ersatz Ingtar who was stabbed, and whose actor has left for a lead role another series and been replaced (and the character re-named for Season 1), is probably dead...


----------



## Mercurius

TheSword said:


> Of all the things I find jarring about this series, skin colour of the cast definitely isn’t on the list. Everyone mixed because they got over their racism 3000 years before. People aren’t going to start segregating again.



I really dislike this sort of nasty implication. I'm talking about world-building, not race relations. I don't care about the skin color of the cast, just how it clearly ignores any pretense to well-considered world-building for the sake of pandering. From a world-building perspective, the ethnic diversity of the Two Rivers and the world in general doesn't make sense. It _could _make sense, but they haven't bothered to make it do so. 

And just to be clear, it isn't a huge deal, just noticeable and one of the facts that points to sloppy world-building.

Plus, what you say just doesn't make sense. If they "got over their racism 3000 years before" then they'd be more homogenous.


----------



## Mercurius

As for the Horn, I vaguely remember being somewhat disappointed with how Jordan handled it years ago. There really wasn't a proper Hunt, which I thought was a fun idea that he didn't really explore - except the idea that there were all these Hunters wandering around, looking for something that had already been found. 

I haven't watched episode 8 yet, but my guess is that we're going to start seeing a greatly reduced plot - even more so than the first season. They have 13 more books to cover and they really can't be planning for 13 seasons. They can't simply combine two books into one season, especially with 8 episodes, so we're probably going to see huge swathes of the books just written out of the show, perhaps including a lot of the GH. Hopefully that isn't too extreme, as it was one of the better books, but they're obviously doing things a bit differently.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> I really dislike this sort of nasty implication. I'm talking about world-building, not race relations. I don't care about the skin color of the cast, just how it clearly ignores any pretense to well-considered world-building for the sake of pandering. From a world-building perspective, the ethnic diversity of the Two Rivers and the world in general doesn't make sense. It _could _make sense, but they haven't bothered to make it do so.
> 
> And just to be clear, it isn't a huge deal, just noticeable and one of the facts that points to sloppy world-building.
> 
> Plus, what you say just doesn't make sense. If they "got over their racism 3000 years before" then they'd be more homogenous.



It's the same situation as Denzel Washington playing Macbeth recently, Lin Manuel Miranda playing Alexander Hamilton: film and stage productions aren't about "ethnographic accuracy," it's just not in the nature of the medium. Similarly with old plays having all male casts.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> As for the Horn, I vaguely remember being somewhat disappointed with how Jordan handled it years ago. There really wasn't a proper Hunt, which I thought was a fun idea that he didn't really explore - except the idea that there were all these Hunters wandering around, looking for something that had already been found.
> 
> I haven't watched episode 8 yet, but my guess is that we're going to start seeing a greatly reduced plot - even more so than the first season. They have 13 more books to cover and they really can't be planning for 13 seasons. They can't simply combine two books into one season, especially with 8 episodes, so we're probably going to see huge swathes of the books just written out of the show, perhaps including a lot of the GH. Hopefully that isn't too extreme, as it was one of the better books, but they're obviously doing things a bit differently.



They have an 8 Season outline, and apparently Amazon is hardliners about 8 episode Seasons. So, we are looking at the whole story being condensed into about 64 episodes, though I hope the Last Battle gets a feature length treatment.

The showrunner said recently that Mat is skipping straight to his Book 3 plot for Season 2, and they have cast characters from Book 3 fornSeason 2, so a mix of Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn seems likely, and 2 books a season moving forward.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> It's the same situation as Denzel Washington playing Macbeth recently, Lin Manuel Miranda playing Alexander Hamilton: film and stage productions aren't about "ethnographic accuracy," it's just not in the nature of the medium. Similarly with old plays having all male casts.



I think because I love fantasy so much, and really care about world-building, it bothers me a bit. And from a world-building perspective, such things matter. Again, not the diversity of the cast, but the lack of any kind of rationale for it. So I don't think it is quite the same thing as the examples you gave. For one, Hamilton was a deliberate subversion - that was kind of the point of the play. And, quite frankly, Denzel can play whoever he wants.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> I think because I love fantasy so much, and really care about world-building, it bothers me a bit. And from a world-building perspective, such things matter. Again, not the diversity of the cast, but the lack of any kind of rationale for it. So I don't think it is quite the same thing as the examples you gave. For one, Hamilton was a deliberate subversion - that was kind of the point of the play. And, quite frankly, Denzel can play whoever he wants.



From a dramatic point of view, however, they don't really matter. The showrunners wanted to find people who could bring the right energy, whatever they look like.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> From a dramatic point of view, however, they don't really matter. The showrunners wanted to find people who could bring the right energy, whatever they look like.



See, I wouldn't separate world-building out as unnecessary - for fantasy, it _does _matter. And I don't think your second sentence is true. It is almost certainly deliberate pandering.

Again, I have no issues with a diverse cast. What I take issue with is sloppy world-building. This isn't the only such issue - there are several things, all mostly minor, but that leave some cracks around the edges that, in total, slightly lessen the overall impact, at least for me. For instance, everything is a bit too clean. The clothes look machine-made and freshly washed (or even, never washed because they just came from some factory). Some of the props also look machine made. Compare this to Game of Thrones, where they took great pains to make everything look like it could have been made by Medieval crafts folk.

My overall feel for the show is still good: I'm enjoying it. I just don't think it is as finely crafted as GoT. But I'm definitely enjoying it more than the Witcher, and it is miles ahead of Shannara.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> It is almost certainly deliberate pandering.
> 
> Again, I have no issues with a diverse cast.



Hmm.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> Hmm.



Oh, please. Are you implying that I'm lying? Me saying that they're pandering doesn't mean I take issues with the cast being diverse. Please don't make the wrong assumption that those two mean the same thing - they don't. I really wish that such remarks could be made without certain ugly implications and assumptions being made. Again, I am simply critiquing their world-building. As I said, a diverse Two Rivers _could _make sense, if they put a bit of thought and effort into why that's the case.

If I'm making an error, it is being too picky and granular. But hey, I'm a world-building connoisseur and just pointing out where I see fuzzy bits around the edges.

Anyhow, I'm going to stop this line on inquiry, because what I'm saying will almost certainly be misconstrued. I think I explained my perspective re: world-building. Please stick with that, and don't assume anything more than that, just because I question the intentions behind the showrunners.


----------



## hawkeyefan

All in all, I really liked the first season. I think they did a great job with most ofthe material and in establishing just enough to keep folks interested and engaged without just expo-dumping all over the place. 

I think it helps that I’m watching with my wife who has no knowledge of the books at all, so I kind of get a fresh view through her. Based on the things she’s asked about, and what she notices versus what she’s missed, I think they’re actually doing a very good job.




Mercurius said:


> Again, not the diversity of the cast, but the lack of any kind of rationale for it.




What rationale do you need that the content of the show does not allow?


----------



## Mercurius

hawkeyefan said:


> What rationale do you need that the content of the show does not allow?




When you say "allow for," sure, the show allows for any number of explanations. But I think greater clarity about how different nations differ in terms of demographics, and different characters--where they are from, what their lineage is, etc--would strengthen the integrity of the world-building.

The Two Rivers is an isolated mountain community, with little contact with the outside world except for peddlers and the occasional stray gleeman or traveler. I think it would bring greater verisimilitude for there to be an in-world reason for why it has such a diversity of ethnicities. One explanation could be that it is a bit of a haven for people from all over the world. But that isn't suggested. 

Again, I admit to probably being a bit too picky/granular in terms of world-building, though I think there are numerous instances of sloppiness that add up, as I said above, that somewhat mar my suspension of disbelief. But none of the instances are so large that it significantly lessens my enjoyment of the show. Meaning, I'm not saying the show's world-building is bad, I'm just suggesting how I think it could be _better._


----------



## TheSword

Mercurius said:


> I really dislike this sort of nasty implication. I'm talking about world-building, not race relations. I don't care about the skin color of the cast, just how it clearly ignores any pretense to well-considered world-building for the sake of pandering. From a world-building perspective, the ethnic diversity of the Two Rivers and the world in general doesn't make sense. It _could _make sense, but they haven't bothered to make it do so.
> 
> And just to be clear, it isn't a huge deal, just noticeable and one of the facts that points to sloppy world-building.
> 
> Plus, what you say just doesn't make sense. If they "got over their racism 3000 years before" then they'd be more homogenous.



I’m sorry, that’s not a dig at you. It was a reference to the fact that in the age of legends people were beyond racism and didn’t segregate. I just don’t understand what is sloppy about genetic makeup being mixed across lands, following an enlightened time like this.

If the genetic make up in the mountain town is mixed to start with… then it isn’t going to resemble any one particular group in 500 years time. Also don’t forget that the Edmonds Fielders are descents of a massive city. It’s like if something indiscriminately wiped out 99.5% of Londoners and the survivors started again.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> Oh, please. Are you implying that I'm lying? Me saying that they're pandering doesn't mean I take issues with the cast being diverse. Please don't make the wrong assumption that those two mean the same thing - they don't. I really wish that such remarks could be made without certain ugly implications and assumptions being made. Again, I am simply critiquing their world-building. As I said, a diverse Two Rivers _could _make sense, if they put a bit of thought and effort into why that's the case.
> 
> If I'm making an error, it is being too picky and granular. But hey, I'm a world-building connoisseur and just pointing out where I see fuzzy bits around the edges.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm going to stop this line on inquiry, because what I'm saying will almost certainly be misconstrued. I think I explained my perspective re: world-building. Please stick with that, and don't assume anything more than that, just because I question the intentions behind the showrunners.



I'm not saying thst you are lying at all, but those two sentences are in some form of conflict.


----------



## TheSword

Mercurius said:


> See, I wouldn't separate world-building out as unnecessary - for fantasy, it _does _matter. And I don't think your second sentence is true. It is almost certainly deliberate pandering.
> 
> Again, I have no issues with a diverse cast. What I take issue with is sloppy world-building. This isn't the only such issue - there are several things, all mostly minor, but that leave some cracks around the edges that, in total, slightly lessen the overall impact, at least for me. For instance, everything is a bit too clean. The clothes look machine-made and freshly washed (or even, never washed because they just came from some factory). Some of the props also look machine made. Compare this to Game of Thrones, where they took great pains to make everything look like it could have been made by Medieval crafts folk.
> 
> My overall feel for the show is still good: I'm enjoying it. I just don't think it is as finely crafted as GoT. But I'm definitely enjoying it more than the Witcher, and it is miles ahead of Shannara.



Well everyone in Westeros was white weren’t they? Except a couple of people from Dorne. It takes a lot of care to make worldbuilding that detailed does it?


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> Well everyone in Westeros was white weren’t they? Except a couple of people from Dorne. It takes a lot of care to make worldbuilding that detailed does it?



The Wheel of Time books, to be fair, have a detailed and diverse ethnography, in terms of phenotypes and material culture...but that was never going to be translated to a film medium.


----------



## Mallus

Mercurius said:


> I think because I love fantasy so much, and really care about world-building, it bothers me a bit.



I care a lot out world-building, too -- let me tell you about my latest D&D setting... kidding! -- and I really liked the casting. For two reasons, mainly.

Reason #1, intradiegetic - the setting for Wheel of Time is post-apocalyptic. We see this in the first episode with the panning shots over ruins that suspiciously look like some type of skyscraper, and it's confirmed in the final episode with Lews Therin living in a vaguely TNG-era Trek looking utopia city, complete with flying cars. It's the aftermath of an advanced global society.

Reason #,  extradiegetic - it's a 21st century TV series. Naturally it's going to reflect the cultural milieu it was made in. That's not bad world-building. That's good art. Or at least honest art, which may or may not be synonymous with 'good'. We might call it 'world-building', but what's really being built is a _stage_ -- and all the elves and ogiers and whatever are merely players.

It's not by accident Tolkien's Shire was so Little England. What else are artists going to build their worlds out of besides their lived experiences (and who are they building things for?).


----------



## Mercurius

TheSword said:


> I’m sorry, that’s not a dig at you. It was a reference to the fact that in the age of legends people were beyond racism and didn’t segregate. I just don’t understand what is sloppy about genetic makeup being mixed across lands, following an enlightened time like this.
> 
> If the genetic make up in the mountain town is mixed to start with… then it isn’t going to resemble any one particular group in 500 years time. Also don’t forget that the Edmonds Fielders are descents of a massive city. It’s like if something indiscriminately wiped out 99.5% of Londoners and the survivors started again.



My apologies for misinterpreting. As for your point, you may be right. My admittedly limited knowledge of genetics makes me think that it would be more homogenous, but I could be wrong - especially after 1800 years (Manetheren was destroyed in 1200 AB).


Parmandur said:


> I'm not saying thst you are lying at all, but those two sentences are in some form of conflict.



I don't think so, as I tried to explain. As I see it, having issues with a diverse cast implies either a kind of purism to the books, which I haven't said anything about, and/or other more nefarious inclinations, which I don't think I've given any reason to think I'm implying. My "issue"--such as it is--is solely on the basis of world-building verisimilitude. Really, it should be broadened beyond this one issue - as I said in my previous post to hawkeyefan. Again, they're all just minor quibbles, but they add up to a bit of a "hmm, ok."

I probably shouldn't have suggested that the showrunners are pandering, because I honestly don't know. But...



TheSword said:


> Well everyone in Westeros was white weren’t they? Except a couple of people from Dorne. It takes a lot of care to make worldbuilding that detailed does it?



I'm not sure what you're saying here. GoT had distinct ethnicities for the various peoples, in a realistic way. But it was a very different world: Medieval fantasy vs. post-apocalyptic fantasy. 



Parmandur said:


> The Wheel of Time books, to be fair, have a detailed and diverse ethnography, in terms of phenotypes and material culture...but that was never going to be translated to a film medium.



I can't remember, but did Jordan depict the different nations as distinctly different?


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> My apologies for misinterpreting. As for your point, you may be right. My admittedly limited knowledge of genetics makes me think that it would be more homogenous, but I could be wrong - especially after 1800 years (Manetheren was destroyed in 1200 AB).
> 
> I don't think so, as I tried to explain. As I see it, having issues with a diverse cast implies either a kind of purism to the books, which I haven't said anything about, and/or other more nefarious inclinations, which I don't think I've given any reason to think I'm implying. My "issue"--such as it is--is solely on the basis of world-building verisimilitude. Really, it should be broadened beyond this one issue - as I said in my previous post to hawkeyefan. Again, they're all just minor quibbles, but they add up to a bit of a "hmm, ok."
> 
> I probably shouldn't have suggested that the showrunners are pandering, because I honestly don't know. But...
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you're saying here. GoT had distinct ethnicities for the various peoples, in a realistic way. But it was a very different world: Medieval fantasy vs. post-apocalyptic fantasy.
> 
> 
> I can't remember, but did Jordan depict the different nations as distinctly different?



Yes, very much so: in appearance, clothing, accent, customs, etc. People could see someone as looking like a Saldean or Tarabiner, but there was overlap and variety to be found. The Two Rivers folk, for example, were all black haired and brown-eyed with tan skin...and Rand got remarks for not looking like he was from the Two Rivers because he was so pale and so tall. 

But that's not a realistic restriction for a stage or film adaptation, as they want to find actors who fit the particular terms of attitude and delivery.


----------



## Mercurius

Mallus said:


> I care a lot out world-building, too -- let me tell you about my latest D&D setting... kidding! -- and I really liked the casting. For two reasons, mainly.
> 
> Reason #1, intradiegetic - the setting for Wheel of Time is post-apocalyptic. We see this in the first episode with the panning shots over ruins that suspiciously look like some type of skyscraper, and it's confirmed in the final episode with Lews Therin living in a vaguely TNG-era Trek looking utopia city, complete with flying cars. It's the ruins of an advanced global society.
> 
> Reason #,  extradiegetic - it's a 21st century TV series. Naturally it's going to reflect the cultural milieu it was made in. That's not bad world-building. That's good art. Or at least honest art, which may or may not be synonymous with 'good'. We might call it 'world-building', but what's really being build is a _stage_ -- and all the elves and ogiers and whatever are merely players.
> 
> It's not by accident Tolkien's Shire was so Little England. What else are artists going to build their worlds out of besides their lived experiences (and who are they building things for?).



All of which I agree with as far as the world as a whole, but still think my "critique" of the Two Rivers stands. As I said, it is an isolated mountain community with little contact with the outside world - for centuries, if not millennia. That is, at least, wobbly world-building that would be stronger with some kind of rationale.

As for the casting, I like it for the most part. I even like some of the changes from Jordan's depiction. Some of the younger actors aren't great at their craft, but none are terrible.

As a general note, though, I'd put some limits on the idea of a 21st century TV series reflecting the cultural milieu - it really depends on the series and the work it draws from. I think it is also important to try to reflect the nature of the art itself. For instance, I'll be a bit more of a stickler to staying true to the source material for the upcoming LotR series, and am already a bit worried about rumors that the actors were told they need to be willing to get naked. This isn't out of any puritanism on my part, but more adherence to staying true to the "spirit of Tolkien" (just as I think it would be silly to make a rated G version of Game of Thrones). But we'll see...just a bit worried they're going to try too hard to appeal to the "Game of Thrones" crowd, when LotR is a _very _different work.


----------



## Parmandur

As a counter example...it isn't necessarily "good worldbuilding" that three cousins from a small rural community have as wildly different accents as Pippen, Merry and Frodo do in the movies (a Scotsman, an Irishman, and an American all walk into a bar pretending to be English gentry...), but approximately nobody cares.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> Yes, very much so: in appearance, clothing, accent, customs, etc. People could see someone as looking like a Saldean or Tarabiner, but there was overlap and variety to be found. The Two Rivers folk, for example, were all black haired and brown-eyed with tan skin...and Rand got remarks for not looking like he was from the Two Rivers because he was so pale and so tall.
> 
> But that's not a realistic restriction for a stage or film adaptation, as they want to find actors who fit the particular terms of attitude and delivery.



OK, fair enough. My memory--again, 25+ years old--is that Andor was basically England, and everything outside of it various shades of Europe. Sort of. I also mis-remembered the Aiel as darker, when someone clarified that they were light-skinned in the books, and that Rand's mom was...



Spoiler: something



not Aiel, but from Andor.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> As a counter example...it isn't necessarily "good worldbuilding" that three cousins from a small rural community have as wildly different accents as Pippen, Merry and Frodo do in the movies (a Scotsman, an Irishman, and an American all walk into a bar pretending to be English gentry...), but approximately nobody cares.



This is why I said I was admittedly being picky - it comes down to what you notice, based upon your knowledge base. I notice when some actors have British accents and others American, but not so much whether it is, say, Scottish vs. Irish. That's probably true of most Americans. Actually, my Scottish-American girlfriend is hard-pressed!


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> OK, fair enough. My memory--again, 25+ years old--is that Andor was basically England, and everything outside of it various shades of Europe. Sort of. I also mis-remembered the Aiel as darker, when someone clarified that they were light-skinned in the books.



Oh, goodness, no. The Borderlands are Steppe and East Asian, culturally,  the southwest is Middle Eastern, etc. Andorra is pretty "English-y," but the Westlands are pretty diverse and broad: before the Seanchan, Aiel or Sharans enter the picture, just about every sort of human phenotype is represented in the Westlands, and a wide range of non-European cultures.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> Oh, goodness, no. The Borderlands are Steppe and East Asian, culturally,  the southwest is Middle Eastern, etc. Andorra is pretty "English-y," but the Westlands are pretty diverse and broad: before the Seanchan, Aiel or Sharans enter the picture, just about every sort of human phenotype is represented in the Westlands, and a wide range of non-European cultures.



I remember the Seanchan being quasi-Asian, but not the Borderlanders. I thought that was new to the show. It has been awhile...


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> I remember the Seanchan being quasi-Asian, but not the Borderlanders. I thought that was new to the show. It has been awhile...



The Seanchan government is modeled after dynastic China or ancient Persia as a huge bureaucratic autocratic imperial state, but the Seanchan are diverse phenotypically themselves, with blonde hair and blue eyed soldiers next to black nobles, or vice versa. The Borderlanders have generally Asian cultural elements and looks, but don't have large imperial structures as they fight for survival on the frontier.


----------



## Mercurius

Alright, I finally watched the last episode. My impression, the short version: Disappointment. I was hoping that this episode would draw together the various threads and tonal qualities of the season, but it actually accentuated my overall problems with the series.

For one, it felt really rushed, like it should have been several episodes but was crammed into one. I know they're dealing with an impossible task: reducing 14 huge books to (probably) 8 seasons with a total of 64 episodes. That means about 4.5 episodes per book on average, which is just absurd. But, this is the task they've set themselves with, and I feel like they're both trying to do too much and doing too little, and the end result is still entertaining, but overall it feels much less than it could be if they had committed to a slower burn.

Connected to that is an ongoing problem I have with the writing and direction, which is a feeling that it is trying to be more dramatic than it actually is. It is almost a variation of "telling" rather than "showing": Rather than showing us stuff that evokes emotion, it feels like they're outright saying, "This is really dramatic - feel emotion now." It just isn't quite working, imo.

A couple other things. The Seanchan just seemed random. I've read the books, so I understand their backstory, but it just felt like a random plot element thrown in, with no context - or at least that's how I imagine a non-book reader would feel.

Finally, as I heard elsewhere, the editing and effects are just uneven, and I can't shake the feeling that it is a low budget show, even though I know its not. he Trollocs looked very video gamey, and some of the scenes looked unfinished. Who knows, maybe Amazon is throwing their bucks into LotR. Or maybe they're rushing it? I don't know. But it isn't as high quality as it should be.

Don't get me wrong: I still like the show. But a lot of that is not because I think it is really well done, but because I like the story and it is, at least, visually appealing (for the most part). But I can't say, at this point at least--things might change once we get into season 2--that they're doing a good job of adapting the books, certainly nowhere nearly as good as Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings. I think it is a middling job at best, and in some ways not good at all. And I also can't say that it is a well done show. It is impossible not to compare it to Game of Thrones, and it just looks rather bad, comparatively (and I say this as someone who preferred the Jordan books to the one Martin book I read).

p.s. I will say something good about the episode. I loved the glimpse into the Age of Legends - a very cool set piece, with the towers, flying craft, etc.


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> I’m sorry, that’s not a dig at you. It was a reference to the fact that in the age of legends people were beyond racism and didn’t segregate. I just don’t understand what is sloppy about genetic makeup being mixed across lands, following an enlightened time like this.
> 
> If the genetic make up in the mountain town is mixed to start with… then it isn’t going to resemble any one particular group in 500 years time. Also don’t forget that the Edmonds Fielders are descents of a massive city. It’s like if something indiscriminately wiped out 99.5% of Londoners and the survivors started again.



They also aren't as isolated as you guys are making it out to be.  They get news and hear about wars.  Hell, Tam went to the Aiel war to fight and then came back.  It's not beyond reason for some of them to move away and some people to move there to get away from larger cities.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> As a counter example...it isn't necessarily "good worldbuilding" that three cousins from a small rural community have as wildly different accents as Pippen, Merry and Frodo do in the movies (a Scotsman, an Irishman, and an American all walk into a bar pretending to be English gentry...), but approximately nobody cares.



No true Scotsman is that short.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> They also aren't as isolated as you guys are making it out to be.  They get news and hear about wars.  Hell, Tam went to the Aiel war to fight and then came back.  It's not beyond reason for some of them to move away and some people to move there to get away from larger cities.



Yeah, they aren’t visited often by the tax authority due to a lack of much to give, but they aren’t a completely isolated community.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Yeah, they aren’t visited often by the tax authority due to a lack of much to give, but they aren’t a completely isolated community.



I thought it was because they were so distant and Caemlyn's arm only stretched so far.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I thought it was because they were so distant and Caemlyn's arm only stretched so far.



It's a return on investment situation; it would cost the government in Caemlyn more to try to tax the Two Rivers than they would get, so as long as they aren't declaring independence they are content to just let their wool trickle out in trade slowly. The geographic barriers to the South, West and East mean that there is no national security concern for Andor, as any other nation would have to go through the rest of Andor to get to the Two Rivers, so there is no reason to have fortifications or military present.


----------



## Maxperson

Mercurius said:


> A couple other things. The Seanchan just seemed random. I've read the books, so I understand their backstory, but it just felt like a random plot element thrown in, with no context - or at least that's how I imagine a non-book reader would feel.



I imagine that they saw it as a cliffhanger new development, rather than just a random plot element.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I imagine that they saw it as a cliffhanger new development, rather than just a random plot element.



TBH, it would be more random if they were introduced like they were in the books.


----------



## Bolares

Mercurius said:


> One element of the series that I find a bit awkward from a world-building sense, is the hodge-podge multiculturalism. I have no issue with the showrunners making it (far) more multicultural than in the books, but as a world-builder, the lack of any internal consistency is annoying.
> 
> The only vaguely consistent element that I've seen is that Borderlanders seem to be Asian.



Isn't this story set on the future of our world? It'd only be logical for the world to get more and more multicultural antil the big apocalypses happen. And then the world would rebuild, but people who lived in multicultural places would still be very diverse. I think it would be unrealistic for people to segregate again after the world blew up...


----------



## Bolares

Maxperson said:


> Other than completely diminishing the mystery of the horn and where it was.



I thought it was very misterious, and made it a good reason for the trolloc army to be attacking fal dara and not trying to find rand and moiraine.


----------



## Bolares

Mercurius said:


> The Two Rivers is an isolated mountain community, with little contact with the outside world except for peddlers and the occasional stray gleeman or traveler.



Isn't the two rivers the remnant of a great and proud city state? that traveled very far on the trolloc wars (or another war, I can't be sure)? So, no, it's not an analogue of an isolated community with little contact with the outside world from our context. It's the descendants of something huge, that could easilly be very diverse and multicultural. So, there is worldbuilding here, justifying a diverse casting.


----------



## hawkeyefan

A couple of points based on a discussion with my wife, who has no knowledge of the books.

The Seanchan at the end did exactly what I would expect the showrunners hoped….it introduced a new threat that is mysterious and dangerous but not yet understood. My wife was like “WTF who are these guys?”

Regarding the Horn of Valere….she had no idea that’s what was in the box, nor what it is. They mention it once, and then there’s a line of dialogue explaining what it is according to legend. But given the scene and the focus on Fain and Perrin, she totally missed that. All she knows is that it’s something important. And honestly, that’s enough. The show can expand on the horn next season pretty easily.


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> Isn't this story set on the future of our world? It'd only be logical for the world to get more and more multicultural antil the big apocalypses happen. And then the world would rebuild, but people who lived in multicultural places would still be very diverse. I think it would be unrealistic for people to segregate again after the world blew up...



People aren't going to move from far away pockets or other continents to one place to live, though.  You'd still have segregated pockets of people that grow in numbers until you have countries.


----------



## Maxperson

Bolares said:


> I thought it was very misterious, and made it a good reason for the trolloc army to be attacking fal dara and not trying to find rand and moiraine.



If it had been known, though, you'd have had them being attacked by the countries to the south as well.  That horn is very powerful.  Plus the trollocs and the dark one don't really need a reason to want to attack southward and kill people.


----------



## Mercurius

Bolares said:


> Isn't the two rivers the remnant of a great and proud city state? that traveled very far on the trolloc wars (or another war, I can't be sure)? So, no, it's not an analogue of an isolated community with little contact with the outside world from our context. It's the descendants of something huge, that could easilly be very diverse and multicultural. So, there is worldbuilding here, justifying a diverse casting.



I don't think this is correct. Manetheren fell 1800 years ago. Two Rivers has presumably been mostly isolated for that time, with only sparse contact with the outside world. Or at least that's the norm we start with at the beginning of the story, and there's no implication that it was once a thriving cosmopolitan center anytime in the recent past.

An isolated community tends to get pretty homogenous over 1800 years.


----------



## hawkeyefan

Mercurius said:


> I don't think this is correct. Manetheren fell 1800 years ago. Two Rivers has presumably been mostly isolated for that time, with only sparse contact with the outside world. Or at least that's the norm we start with at the beginning of the story, and there's no implication that it was once a thriving cosmopolitan center anytime in the recent past.
> 
> An isolated community tends to get pretty homogenous over 1800 years.




But does the show imply this as strongly as the books do?

I didn’t really get that impression. Is it a remote place? Yes. Is it so remote that there is little to no contact with the outside world? We don’t know enough from the show to say so. 

Have they even said in the show what country the Two Rivers is from? Or made many comments about how rare strangers are? I don’t think that the show has made any strong attempts to do so, where as in the books this is all very specifically stated.


----------



## Mercurius

hawkeyefan said:


> But does the show imply this as strongly as the books do?
> 
> I didn’t really get that impression. Is it a remote place? Yes. Is it so remote that there is little to no contact with the outside world? We don’t know enough from the show to say so.
> 
> Have they even said in the show what country the Two Rivers is from? Or made many comments about how rare strangers are? I don’t think that the show has made any strong attempts to do so, where as in the books this is all very specifically stated.



I do think they say it is part of Andor. Don't they mention tax collectors not coming because it is so far from civilization, or was that only the book?

And in the show, they do look upon the arrival of Padan Fain and Thom Merrilin as rare. I think it is strongly implied that Two Rivers is very isolated. I mean, the five had never been to Baerlon, the closest large town.


----------



## Maxperson

hawkeyefan said:


> Have they even said in the show what country the Two Rivers is from? Or made many comments about how rare strangers are? I don’t think that the show has made any strong attempts to do so, where as in the books this is all very specifically stated.



Yes.  Moiraine goes on at some length about Manetheren and how the Two Rivers folk are from there.  I think she even says the old blood runs true in the Two Rivers.  Further, they make a point to talk about when the peddler Padan Fain comes, excited to be getting a visitor.  The strong implication is that they do get visitors, but that they aren't that common.


----------



## Bolares

I think if Two Rivers was THAT isolated and homogenous, Rand being adopted couldn't be a surprise for him... He is clearlly different from the people he grew up with and neither him or anyone else questioned that until Moiraine came around?


----------



## Demetrios1453

Parmandur said:


> They have an 8 Season outline, and apparently Amazon is hardliners about 8 episode Seasons. So, we are looking at the whole story being condensed into about 64 episodes, though I hope the Last Battle gets a feature length treatment.
> 
> The showrunner said recently that Mat is skipping straight to his Book 3 plot for Season 2, and they have cast characters from Book 3 fornSeason 2, so a mix of Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn seems likely, and 2 books a season moving forward.



Mat doesn't do anything exciting in Book 2 other than blowing the Horn. Other than that he's a jerk who is wasting away....


----------



## Demetrios1453

TheSword said:


> I’m sorry, that’s not a dig at you. It was a reference to the fact that in the age of legends people were beyond racism and didn’t segregate. I just don’t understand what is sloppy about genetic makeup being mixed across lands, following an enlightened time like this.
> 
> If the genetic make up in the mountain town is mixed to start with… then it isn’t going to resemble any one particular group in 500 years time. Also don’t forget that the Edmonds Fielders are descents of a massive city. It’s like if something indiscriminately wiped out 99.5% of Londoners and the survivors started again.



So magic can alter physics, but not biology?


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I think if Two Rivers was THAT isolated and homogenous, Rand being adopted couldn't be a surprise for him... He is clearlly different from the people he grew up with and neither him or anyone else questioned that until Moiraine came around?



Tam Al'Thor's wife was a redhead from outside the Two Rivers, so there was some plausible deniability. Basically everyone questions Rand's ethnicity once they leave the tight-knit community where people mind there own business, though.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> Tam Althouse wife was a redhead from outside the Two Rivers, so there was some plausible deniability. Basically everyone questions Rand's ethnicity once they leave the tight-knit community where people mind there own business, though.



Yeah, but that goes in direct contradiction with the statement that two rivers is completelly isolated and has no outside influence. Those two statements seem pretty contradictory to me. (I know you are not making this argument)


----------



## Bolares

And from what I've read (they are just now getting on their horses to leave two rivers) the Emond's Field folk are VERY MUCH in each other's business    (mainly those damned Coplins!)


----------



## Mezuka

Never finished the books. I'm okay with the series. The last episode was a bit underwhelming.

So they are five. Two will side with the light, two will side with the darkness. Rand will vacillate between the two until he chooses the light and wins the day. The End.


----------



## Bolares

I think the episode was kind of anticlimatic. It seems it does a good job of being half of the first arch of the series as a whole, but a bad endpoint for the season by itself.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I think the episode was kind of anticlimatic. It seems it does a good job of being half of the first arch of the series as a whole, but a bad endpoint for the season by itself.



The books ending is fairly abrupt and awkward: the original story outline, for a trilogy _snort_, had the first book end where the third book climaxes, and in retrospect that "opening trilogy" does feel like a tight unit.

Basically, the series ended needing nearly 5 books for every book Jordan thought he would need. Brevity was not his strong suit.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> Yeah, but that goes in direct contradiction with the statement that two rivers is completelly isolated and has no outside influence. Those two statements seem pretty contradictory to me. (I know you are not making this argument)



Yeah, it's not _that_ isolated.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> The books ending is fairly abrupt and awkward: the original story outline, for a trilogy _snort_, had the first book end where the third book climaxes, and in retrospect that "opening trilogy" does feel like a tight unit.
> 
> Basically, the series ended needing nearly 5 books for every book Jordan thought he would need. Brevity was not his strong suit.



There is also Covid messing everything up. I'd bet A LOT of the finale had to be changed because of covid and the Mat actor leaving...


----------



## Parmandur

Pretty cool post-mortem for the Season here:

"Mainly what we have to focus on is compression, and then reacting to those compressions. Like, we can't go to Caemlyn because we can't afford it and we don't have time, so that is a great compression, but it has ripple effects. All of those things have ripple effects, so we have to take the stories and tie them back together. We have a big round-up point at the end of season 2 that reconnects everything and pushes us off in a new direction where we've completed all the stories we need to get through, albeit in a slightly different order so we can compress them. We only add new stories when we need to. In season 1, we really needed to emotionally explain mythological things about Aes Sedai and Warders, so we had to add story there. We'll obviously have to add story for Moiraine and Lan (Daniel Henney) because they're basically sidelined for a couple books, but we're not going to put Rosamund Pike on the bench. We have to add some story while we're compressing, so it's still a tense battle to fit every season into those eight episodes."









						'The Wheel of Time' showrunner answers our burning questions about the season 1 finale
					

Rafe Judkins tells EW about revisions to Perrin's backstory, compression as part of adaptation, and what to expect from season 2.




					ew.com


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Well, Moraine gets sidelined for an important story reason, though I guess they could compress that into an episode or two. I don't recall Lan being sidelined all that long in story time (given that a relatively short time gets stretched into three plus novels).


----------



## Demetrios1453

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Well, Moraine gets sidelined for an important story reason, though I guess they could compress that into an episode or two. I don't recall Lan being sidelined all that long in story time (given that a relatively short time gets stretched into three plus novels).



Lan and Moiraine are almost completely absent in Book 2. They're there at the start, end, and a single chapter in the middle.


----------



## Parmandur

Demetrios1453 said:


> Lan and Moiraine are almost completely absent in Book 2. They're there at the start, end, and a single chapter in the middle.



Big difference between doing that in a book with a practically infinite cast with no acting budget, versus series stars...


----------



## Bolares

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Well, Moraine gets sidelined for an important story reason, though I guess they could compress that into an episode or two. I don't recall Lan being sidelined all that long in story time (given that a relatively short time gets stretched into three plus novels).



The showrunner already said they will compress her sidelining because they can't/shouldn't put Rosamund Pike on the shelf for that long.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

You have to take the high level mentor off the board so the PCs can shine.

Once they catch up levels the mentor can re-join the party.


----------



## Bolares

Paul Farquhar said:


> You have to take the high level mentor off the board so the PCs can shine.



I think her being stilled acomplishes that...


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Bolares said:


> I think her being stilled acomplishes that...



Yeah, depowering means you can still have her around, rather than have her temporarily killed by the balrog/Darth Vader/Morgan-le-Fey.

If it was 1st edition, she could have an unfortunate run-in with a vampire...


----------



## Bolares

Paul Farquhar said:


> Yeah, depowering means you can still have her around, rather than have her temporarily killed by the balrog/Darth Vader/Morgan-le-Fey.
> 
> If it was 1st edition, she could have an unfortunate run-in with a vampire...



Yeah, and in a pratical sense... Rosamund Pike carries this show in an acting sense. She does almost all the heavy lifting, you can't loose her in season two without having other cast members rise to her standards... and that's really hard to do.


----------



## TheSword

Glad to see that Matt is being replaced with someone funny. Matt is supposed to do a lot of the comedy heavy lifting in the books. The S1 actor was just moody.


----------



## Demetrios1453

TheSword said:


> Glad to see that Matt is being replaced with someone funny. Matt is supposed to do a lot of the comedy heavy lifting in the books. The S1 actor was just moody.



In book 1, after the first quarter or so, Mat was just moody because of the dagger. Everyone seems to forget we only get Mat as we remember him in Book 3.


----------



## Mercurius

Even my 13-year old daughter found the final episode rather disappointing. We were laughing at how bad the Trollocs looked, especially that dark shot with them coming out of the valley, which looked like a ten-year old video game on pause.

I can live with the "compression" effect -- cutting stuff is unavoidable. Although I wish they would have kept stuff like the White Bridge, as it brings flavor to the world.

I can even live with the sometimes mediocre acting, because no one stands out as truly bad and it is partially made up by some good performances.

I'm also OK with world-building incongruences, as they have benefits (e.g. a more diverse, interesting cast).

I don't even mind the tinges of GoT gratuity, because it isn't over-the-top, just a bit more than the books. As long as Mat doesn't become the Littlefinger of Tar Valon...(actually, that would be kind of fun).

But the two things that linger as significant issues for me are:

1) The effects. It is just a head-scratcher, given the supposed big budget for this series. Either they rushed it or it isn't as high budget as it seemed, which is odd considering how much weight the Amazon marketing has given it. Given its popularity, maybe we'll see improvement in season two, but for now it looks a bit too much like a SyFy show from 2005.

2) The writing/directing. Some of it is just bad. The forced drama that I mentioned up-thread. You've got to earn that. Or a bit that really annoyed me: the arc of the Fal Dara king. I mean, they tried to make it so his death would be impactful, but it just wasn't. He shot a few bolts and then was speared. Who cares.


----------



## Bolares

Mercurius said:


> 1) The effects. It is just a head-scratcher, given the supposed big budget for this series. Either they rushed it or it isn't as high budget as it seemed, which is odd considering how much weight the Amazon marketing has given it. Given its popularity, maybe we'll see improvement in season two, but for now it looks a bit too much like a SyFy show from 2005.



The budget for this episode apparently was *severelly *eaten by COVID filming restrictions. Lews Therin's scene was supposed to be done in two days of shooting. It took a month. Testing, every three days, safety equipment for the whole crew, locations shoots cancelled, longer time to shoot anything, working on CGI from home.... all that is said to have contributed to th problems with the CGI.

Brandon Sanderson described episodes 7 and 8 as "crisis mode" for the production. That they could make 7 so good was a feat of it's own.


----------



## payn

TheSword said:


> Glad to see that Matt is being replaced with someone funny. Matt is supposed to do a lot of the comedy heavy lifting in the books. The S1 actor was just moody.



Are you implying the actor gets to make that call?


----------



## Demetrios1453

Mercurius said:


> Even my 13-year old daughter found the final episode rather disappointing. We were laughing at how bad the Trollocs looked, especially that dark shot with them coming out of the valley, which looked like a ten-year old video game on pause.
> 
> I can live with the "compression" effect -- cutting stuff is unavoidable. Although I wish they would have kept stuff like the White Bridge, as it brings flavor to the world.
> 
> I can even live with the sometimes mediocre acting, because no one stands out as truly bad and it is partially made up by some good performances.
> 
> I'm also OK with world-building incongruences, as they have benefits (e.g. a more diverse, interesting cast).
> 
> I don't even mind the tinges of GoT gratuity, because it isn't over-the-top, just a bit more than the books. As long as Mat doesn't become the Littlefinger of Tar Valon...(actually, that would be kind of fun).
> 
> But the two things that linger as significant issues for me are:
> 
> 1) The effects. It is just a head-scratcher, given the supposed big budget for this series. Either they rushed it or it isn't as high budget as it seemed, which is odd considering how much weight the Amazon marketing has given it. Given its popularity, maybe we'll see improvement in season two, but for now it looks a bit too much like a SyFy show from 2005.
> 
> 2) The writing/directing. Some of it is just bad. The forced drama that I mentioned up-thread. You've got to earn that. Or a bit that really annoyed me: the arc of the Fal Dara king. I mean, they tried to make it so his death would be impactful, but it just wasn't. He shot a few bolts and then was speared. Who cares.



From what's come out, Episodes 7 and 8 were a nightmare coming back from the Covid break, with restrictions and Mat's actor gone. They had an actual location scouted out for the Blight they could no longer use. They had dozens of extras, mainly Trollocs, who had already been practicing the final battle, who could no longer be used and had to be hastily replaced with CGI. Mat's actor leaving resulted in massive last-minute re-writes. Luckily Episode 7 came out ok, but you can see how it all effected Episode 8...


----------



## TheSword

payn said:


> Are you implying the actor gets to make that call?



Nah. Just that it’s a fortuitous event as the actor couldn’t or wouldn’t carry the humor.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Well, finished season 1 today. I haven't read the books, but on its own terms the series works for me. I still think the most egregious misstep was the weirdly rushed voice over at the beginning of episode 1, which explained nothing that was not explained better later on in the episode. It's less than one minute of running time, but it makes a very weak first impression that left me starting episode one concerned if the series creators knew what they were doing. I suspect they didn't want a now standard "Galadriel narrates what happened in olden times" fantasy opening, but that late in production they got feedback that people would be confused what was going on and slapped that thing together.



Mercurius said:


> I really dislike this sort of nasty implication. I'm talking about world-building, not race relations. I don't care about the skin color of the cast, just how it clearly ignores any pretense to well-considered world-building for the sake of pandering. From a world-building perspective, the ethnic diversity of the Two Rivers and the world in general doesn't make sense. It _could _make sense, but they haven't bothered to make it do so.




I will say that I spent the first four or five episodes wondering if it was just inclusive casting decisions with no worldbuilding consistency or if the rules of their fantasy world were actually different and involved children having random physiognomy unrelated to their parents, because I was baffled that Two Rivers seemed to be an ethnic melting pot where, even after many generations, no melting happened and that, in fact, there was not a nondiverse community in the entire world so far as we've seen. I genuinely thought maybe it was just supposed to be a world where (what are to us) racial features are determined by the star you are born under or some other fantasy conceit.

I'm all for a diverse cast, I was just a little disappointed that they didn't take advantage of the genre being fantasy to do some worldbuilding that actually explained why an insular community didn't all look like not-so-distant cousins after a few generations.


----------



## Zardnaar

Bolares said:


> The budget for this episode apparently was *severelly *eaten by COVID filming restrictions. Lews Therin's scene was supposed to be done in two days of shooting. It took a month. Testing, every three days, safety equipment for the whole crew, locations shoots cancelled, longer time to shoot anything, working on CGI from home.... all that is said to have contributed to th problems with the CGI.
> 
> Brandon Sanderson described episodes 7 and 8 as "crisis mode" for the production. That they could make 7 so good was a feat of it's own.




Fair enough. Episode 4 and 7 were the best iirc.


----------



## Mercurius

Thanks for the "inside info," @Bolares and @Demetrios1453. That is actually kind of relieving and makes me have faith that S2 will be a significant improvement.


----------



## Parmandur

Mercurius said:


> The effects. It is just a head-scratcher, given the supposed big budget for this series. Either they rushed it or it isn't as high budget as it seemed, which is odd considering how much weight the Amazon marketing has given it. Given its popularity, maybe we'll see improvement in season two, but for now it looks a bit too much like a SyFy show from 2005.



A point to consider: while yes, this is a very high budget TV show, it's still less than $10 million per hour: the full ~9 hours city around $80 million, which is a fraction of the budget for, say, Avengers: Endgame for much more screen time.

I'm pretty convinced that the only way to do the visuals of the novel full justice would be as animation, where the budget is more flat and the goal more artistic than "realistic."


----------



## Zardnaar

Parmandur said:


> A point to consider: while yes, this is a very high budget TV show, it's still less than $10 million per hour: the full ~9 hours city around $80 million, which is a fraction of the budget for, say, Avengers: Endgame for much more screen time.
> 
> I'm pretty convinced that the only way to do the visuals of the novel full justice would be as animation, where the budget is more flat and the goal more artistic than "realistic."




 This. The show and Mandalorian/Foundation probably redefining special effects by TV show standards. 

 Don't expect MCU/Star Wars movie levels of effects.


----------



## Mercurius

Parmandur said:


> A point to consider: while yes, this is a very high budget TV show, it's still less than $10 million per hour: the full ~9 hours city around $80 million, which is a fraction of the budget for, say, Avengers: Endgame for much more screen time.
> 
> I'm pretty convinced that the only way to do the visuals of the novel full justice would be as animation, where the budget is more flat and the goal more artistic than "realistic."



Yeah, but you don't need an MCU budget to do better than they did. I mean, some of it was just bad, worse than it should have been.

But I think Bolares and Demetrios explained it: they were rushed, and thus did a sub-par job. This is really illustrated by the unevenness of it. If it was really just a matter of budget, then I think it would have been more consistently solid, but instead we have a wide range of great to awful, in terms of effects.

(The image that stood out to me in particular is at 30:34-35...and I think that exact same bit was repeated once or twice)


----------



## Bolares

Mercurius said:


> Yeah, but you don't need an MCU budget to do better than they did. I mean, some of it was just bad, worse than it should have been.
> 
> But I think Bolares and Demetrios explained it: they were rushed, and thus did a sub-par job. This is really illustrated by the unevenness of it. If it was really just a matter of budget, then I think it would have been more consistently solid, but instead we have a wide range of great to awful, in terms of effects.
> 
> (The image that stood out to me in particular is at 30:34-35...and I think that exact same bit was repeated once or twice)



I think the issues should be just that, an explanation. But not an excuse or justification. The correct thing to do was to delay the show to make the last episode better, and that responsability falls with the studio.


----------



## Ryujin

Bolares said:


> I think the issues should be just that, an explanation. But not an excuse or justification. The correct thing to do was to delay the show to make the last episode better, and that responsability falls with the studio.



Production companies are going out of business, while they wait for this mess to end. It's either deliver what you _can_ make, or don't deliver anything.


----------



## Bolares

Ryujin said:


> Production companies are going out of business, while they wait for this mess to end. It's either deliver what you _can_ make, or don't deliver anything.



That's why I said the responsability was with the studio. They have the power and money to push things to a latter date to ensure a quality material is delivered. Amazon had every reason to  delay this show a bit...


----------



## Ryujin

Bolares said:


> That's why I said the responsability was with the studio. They have the power and money to push things to a latter date to ensure a quality material is delivered. Amazon had every reason to  delay this show a bit...



Quite the contrary. With all of  the major competition that was being released around the same time, they had every reason to rush it.


----------



## Mordhau

Ryujin said:


> Quite the contrary. With all of  the major competition that was being released around the same time, they had every reason to rush it.



That will all depend on how many people come back for season 2.


----------



## Bolares

Mordhau said:


> That will all depend on how many people come back for season 2.



Basing it on the success of season 1… a lot


----------



## TheSword

I think people will come back. Certainly anyone who was a fan of the books is still going to want to come back and see how they handle series 2.

That’s not really going to be the measure of success though. With average 3 star reviews and 67% audience score on rotten tomatoes are they going to greenlight series 3-7, when they could instead greenlight the next equivalent to Power with its 4 star reviews and 87% audience score. Or Queens Gambit with its 5 stars and 94% audience score. Remember WOT isn’t in competition with Shanara or Game of Thrones. It’s in competition with the other proposals Amazon are receiving.

For me, series 1 had promise and some great elements, but dropped the ball a little too much for my liking. In particular the last episode was a bit of a damp squib. Of course I’ll keep watching, but that won’t be because the series made me want to… but rather that the books make me want to see how it turns out. If you haven’t read the books I’m not sure that impetus would be there.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> Basing it on the success of season 1… a lot



I mean, yeah, the reception has seemed mostly positive.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> That’s not really going to be the measure of success though.



I mean, that literally is the measure of success for Amazon, though. Critical ratings don't matter, viewing numbers do. Driving book and audio book sales, to boot.


----------



## Ryujin

TheSword said:


> I think people will come back. Certainly anyone who was a fan of the books is still going to want to come back and see how they handle series 2.
> 
> That’s not really going to be the measure of success though. With average 3 star reviews and 67% audience score on rotten tomatoes are they going to greenlight series 3-7, when they could instead greenlight the next equivalent to Power with its 4 star reviews and 87% audience score. Or Queens Gambit with its 5 stars and 94% audience score. Remember WOT isn’t in competition with Shanara or Game of Thrones. It’s in competition with the other proposals Amazon are receiving.
> 
> For me, series 1 had promise and some great elements, but dropped the ball a little too much for my liking. In particular the last episode was a bit of a damp squib. Of course I’ll keep watching, but that won’t be because the series made me want to… but rather that the books make me want to see how it turns out. If you haven’t read the books I’m not sure that impetus would be there.



"Eyes On" is the only measure that really matters, for Amazon. If the ratings are good enough, regardless of the audience scores, more will get made. No, Amazon isn't in competition with Shanara (it was cancelled) or Game of Thrones. They're in competition for subscriptions. If their aggregate programming is enough to keep building viewership, then they'll keep going with it. If a property doesn't meet those viewership goals, which typically will involve growth rather than retention, then it'll get the axe.


----------



## TheSword

Parmandur said:


> I mean, that literally is the measure of success for Amazon, though. Critical ratings don't matter, viewing numbers do. Driving book and audio book sales, to boot.






Ryujin said:


> "Eyes On" is the only measure that really matters, for Amazon. If the ratings are good enough, regardless of the audience scores, more will get made. No, Amazon isn't in competition with Shanara (it was cancelled) or Game of Thrones. They're in competition for subscriptions. If their aggregate programming is enough to keep building viewership, then they'll keep going with it. If a property doesn't meet those viewership goals, which typically will involve growth rather than retention, then it'll get the axe.



Sure. My point is that if eyes on will be better with an alternative then that $80 million isn’t gonna get spent on season 3 etc.

I wouldn’t underestimate audience opinions. Good marketing and faith in the platform, cast,  show runner etc can launch a product. Keeping it going is a different matter. Audience score is a measure of satisfaction, which is  for long run seasons.

Game of Thrones didn’t start off the massive hit it ended up being. It grew that way because of net promotion and audiences saying it was a must watch… are you telling your friends WOT is a much watch? Would you buy it if it was £15 a season? Or are people just watching it because it’s free with Prime. There are lots of things to watch on streaming. There are at least seven or eight shows competing for my time right now. At least two or three won’t get watched/finished.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> Sure. My point is that if eyes on will be better with an alternative then that $80 million isn’t gonna get spent on season 3 etc.
> 
> I wouldn’t underestimate audience opinions. Good marketing and faith in the platform, cast,  show runner etc can launch a product. Keeping it going is a different matter. Audience score is a measure of satisfaction, which is  for long run seasons.
> 
> Game of Thrones didn’t start off the massive hit it ended up being. It grew that way because of net promotion and audiences saying it was a must watch… are you telling your friends WOT is a much watch? Would you buy it if it was £15 a season? Or are people just watching it because it’s free with Prime. There are lots of things to watch on streaming. There are at least seven or eight shows competing for my time right now. At least two or three won’t get watched/finished.



To be honest, I haven't watched it yet, just finished my listen to the audio book in preparation. The chatter, however, is positive, and people saw it through it seems. The review numbers are suspect, due to the review bomb garbage people engage in. Essentially worthless for any sort of analysis.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> I mean, that literally is the measure of success for Amazon, though. Critical ratings don't matter, viewing numbers do. Driving book and audio book sales, to boot.



This.  I discovered that I had somehow lost book 1 shortly after the series started and went to a used book store that in the past had many copies of the books.  There were literally no copies of any of Jordan's books on the shelves.  The owners told me that they flew off the shelf as soon as the series started and that as soon as they got a copy, it sold.


----------



## Maxperson

TheSword said:


> Sure. My point is that if eyes on will be better with an alternative then that $80 million isn’t gonna get spent on season 3 etc.



It's not "will be better."  It's "might be better" and you don't typically axe a show with good viewership on a "maybe the next show will be better."


TheSword said:


> Game of Thrones didn’t start off the massive hit it ended up being. It grew that way because of net promotion and audiences saying it was a must watch… are you telling your friends WOT is a much watch?



Yes.  Despite my issues with some of the changes, I have been recommending it to my friends.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> This.  I discovered that I had somehow lost book 1 shortly after the series started and went to a used book store that in the past had many copies of the books.  There were literally no copies of any of Jordan's books on the shelves.  The owners told me that they flew off the shelf as soon as the series started and that as soon as they got a copy, it sold.



Even if I end up really turned off by the show, I'll love it's existence  simply for raising the profile of these great books back into the limelight.


----------



## Ryujin

TheSword said:


> Sure. My point is that if eyes on will be better with an alternative then that $80 million isn’t gonna get spent on season 3 etc.
> 
> I wouldn’t underestimate audience opinions. Good marketing and faith in the platform, cast,  show runner etc can launch a product. Keeping it going is a different matter. Audience score is a measure of satisfaction, which is  for long run seasons.
> 
> Game of Thrones didn’t start off the massive hit it ended up being. It grew that way because of net promotion and audiences saying it was a must watch… are you telling your friends WOT is a much watch? Would you buy it if it was £15 a season? Or are people just watching it because it’s free with Prime. There are lots of things to watch on streaming. There are at least seven or eight shows competing for my time right now. At least two or three won’t get watched/finished.



You discount "hate watching", which seems to be a rather significant component these days. Amazon knows instantly who is and isn't watching a show, when they're watching it, if they stop and start it multiple times... They don't need "ratings" to figure out if a show is worth running or not.


----------



## Parmandur

Ryujin said:


> You discount "hate watching", which seems to be a rather significant component these days. Amazon knows instantly who is and isn't watching a show, when they're watching it, it they stop and start it multiple times... They don't need "ratings" to figure out if a show is worth running or not.



A major advantage that streaming has over older broadcasting models.


----------



## Zardnaar

TheSword said:


> I think people will come back. Certainly anyone who was a fan of the books is still going to want to come back and see how they handle series 2.
> 
> That’s not really going to be the measure of success though. With average 3 star reviews and 67% audience score on rotten tomatoes are they going to greenlight series 3-7, when they could instead greenlight the next equivalent to Power with its 4 star reviews and 87% audience score. Or Queens Gambit with its 5 stars and 94% audience score. Remember WOT isn’t in competition with Shanara or Game of Thrones. It’s in competition with the other proposals Amazon are receiving.
> 
> For me, series 1 had promise and some great elements, but dropped the ball a little too much for my liking. In particular the last episode was a bit of a damp squib. Of course I’ll keep watching, but that won’t be because the series made me want to… but rather that the books make me want to see how it turns out. If you haven’t read the books I’m not sure that impetus would be there.




 Rotten Tomatoes is irrelevant. Companies care about two things. 

1. Money. Espicially with movies it's the box office. 

2. Amount of people watching. With streaming services at least. 

 It's better than it's 67% RT score although the worst episodes would rate about that.


----------



## Maxperson

I just peeked at rotten tomatoes and I found it interesting that the aggregate rating of all critics was 82%, but if you just looked at the top critics it was 54%.


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> I just peeked at rotten tomatoes and I found it interesting that the aggregate rating of all critics was 82%, but if you just looked at the top critics it was 54%.



It seems to me that among critics, the series was not well received by critics who wanted another Game of Thtones, but well received by critics who approached the show as it's own thing.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> It seems to me that among critics, the series was not well received by critics who wanted another Game of Thtones, but well received by critics who approached the show as it's own thing.



I've never in my life been swayed by critics.  I discovered in my teens that my tastes often disagreed with the "professionals" and I thoroughly enjoyed movies that they didn't.  The only critics I ever really respected were Siskel and Ebert, because their tastes and mine mostly matched up.  So they weren't guiding me so much as validating my opinion.


----------



## TheSword

I’m also not bothered by critics rating. I don’t watch TV because I’m expecting an artistic epiphany or an original piece of art. As we discussed in the Tyranny of Novelty thread I think originality is over rated!

On the other hand I do take notice of audience scores when something has been out for a while and has several thousand scores. Particularly with TV and films where there is so much to choose from.

Low audience scores are going to give me low expectations and given two things that have caught my eye and one has a noticeably lower audience score I’ll usually go with the other one. Same with Amazon products, hotel stays, restaurants and god knows what else.

Maybe these things don’t make a difference to you folks but believe me, companies don’t add review information because it’s an irrelevant icing on the cake… it influences buying decisions.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> I’m also not bothered by critics rating. I don’t watch TV because I’m expecting an artistic epiphany or an original piece of art. As we discussed in the Tyranny of Novelty thread I think originality is over rated!
> 
> On the other hand I do take notice of audience scores when something has been out for a while and has several thousand scores. Particularly with TV and films where there is so much to choose from.
> 
> Low audience scores are going to give me low expectations and given two things that have caught my eye and one has a noticeably lower audience score I’ll usually go with the other one. Same with Amazon products, hotel stays, restaurants and god knows what else.
> 
> Maybe these things don’t make a difference to you folks but believe me, companies don’t add review information because it’s an irrelevant icing on the cake… it influences buying decisions.



I trust critics more than "user scores" as poisoned as they are by bot entries and bombers.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Ryujin said:


> "Eyes On" is the only measure that really matters, for Amazon. If the ratings are good enough, regardless of the audience scores, more will get made. No, Amazon isn't in competition with Shanara (it was cancelled) or Game of Thrones. They're in competition for subscriptions. If their aggregate programming is enough to keep building viewership, then they'll keep going with it. If a property doesn't meet those viewership goals, which typically will involve growth rather than retention, then it'll get the axe.



Indeed, fundamentally with any streaming service it's not about whether people love or enjoy a particular series, it's about whether the streaming provider believes that gaining or maintaining access to that series made a substantial number of people subscribe and/or maintain their subscriptions. Unfortunately for streaming services they don't have access to very good data on what weight a given piece of content had on their subscribership. While the stated reactions of audiences, or positive buzz, may be factors in renewing a show, fundamentally how viewed it was, how often, by how many people is the best indicator they've got.

Viewership is an even bigger factor with Amazon than most streaming services, because on  Amazon people's subscription is (theoretically) an annual subscription and tied to a lot of other services, so while, say, Netflix can see some of its users subscribing, watching a particular show, and dropping the subscription until the next season of that show comes out or other patterns of subscription behavior, subscription behavior is generally a lot more static and hard to interpret with Amazon.

There are also other synergies to take into account for Amazon. Anytime a book gets a high profile adaptation by anyone Amazon captures much of the profits made from renewed interest in that book, especially if people read it on a Kindle. More importantly, it is no accident that their most expensive series coincided with the holiday shopping season. If they think it inspired a meaningful number of people to give prime a try and then take advantage of their prime membership to do a lot of their Christmas shopping on Amazon, it's going to keep getting renewed as long as that pattern holds.


----------



## Maxperson

Benjamin Olson said:


> Viewership is an even bigger factor with Amazon than most streaming services, because on  Amazon people's subscription is (theoretically) an annual subscription and tied to a lot of other services,



It comes with Prime memberships for free, though, so it may be less important than you think.  A whole lot of people buy prime memberships for the free shipping.


----------



## Ryujin

Maxperson said:


> It comes with Prime memberships for free, though, so it may be less important than you think.  A whole lot of people buy prime memberships for the free shipping.



Bought it for the free shipping. Stayed for the videos.


----------



## Maxperson

Ryujin said:


> Bought it for the free shipping. Stayed for the videos.



Either way, viewership is impacted by prime numbers.  I guess they could look to see how many more than normal new memberships happen, but total viewership is probably not the metric.


----------



## Parmandur

Some interesting general info:



> Amazon has an interesting approach to measure the success of their (myriad) TV shows.
> 
> The metric is called “cost per first stream“.
> 
> Reuters revealed the detail behind its meaning and implementation. In short, the cost per first stream is the price (cost) to “hook” a customer on Prime (which requires a paid yearly membership to access).
> 
> Per the article, “Amazon divides a show’s production and marketing expenses by the number of people who stream that program first after signing up.” The lower the number, the better the rating — and the better the likelihood the who would get renewed for another season.












						Amazon creates "cost per first stream" metric to measure success of TV shows
					

Based on Amazon's internal ratings system, seasons 1 of 'The Grand Tour', 'The Man in the High Castle', and 'Bosch' are all doing their part to draw new Prime members.




					www.starkinsider.com


----------



## Zardnaar

Parmandur said:


> I trust critics more than "user scores" as poisoned as they are by bot entries and bombers.




 They skew towards highbrow stuff. They're useless at more lowbrow stuff. 

 Sometimes you get things like 23% critic score and 90%+ audience. 

 IMDB is better anyway.


----------



## Zardnaar

Corn fritters, egg, avocado salad.




 Very different cheese roll. Still nice. Some sort of dark bread. 



And my view having brunch.


----------



## Demetrios1453

Ryujin said:


> Bought it for the free shipping. Stayed for the videos.



That was me. When the series was announced, I was like, "Awesome, I already have this!"


----------



## Zardnaar

Demetrios1453 said:


> That was me. When the series was announced, I was like, "Awesome, I already have this!"




 You haven't watched anything else?


----------



## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> It comes with Prime memberships for free, though, so it may be less important than you think.  A whole lot of people buy prime memberships for the free shipping.



Yeah, Amazon's in the weird position of gaining a big potential audience almost incidentally. For that matter, the show started in the run-up to Christmas, when presumably they'd be getting a spike in subscribers anyway purely for Christmas shopping, so they've no really reliable way of tracking how many people signed up because of WoT versus for other reasons.

For Amazon I'd expect Audience Appreciation figures to be the big metric for whether a show is good for them. That does a better job of telling them whether a show is going to retain subscribers for them.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Parmandur said:


> I trust critics more than "user scores" as poisoned as they are by bot entries and bombers.



I trust EN World's Geek Media forum more than critics or user scores. The inmates residents here are much more likely to be a good judge of what I want to see.


Ryujin said:


> Bought it for the free shipping. Stayed for the videos.



Same. The occasional good show -- and with Expanse, WoT, etc they've been more than just occasional -- is a bonus.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Been busy over holiday break so catching up on this thread now. 

I found the end of episode 8 to be clunky and kind of confusing, which, if you've read the books is to be expected as the end of the book is also clunky and kind of confusing concerning what happens at the Eye of the World. 

I thought the Seanchan looked cool.

I have high hopes Season 2, since that's when things really start happening. And we'll see things like (hopefully) Rand becoming an actual interesting character, as without an internal monologue, he doesn't have much going on in the show right now. 

I also hope they sort of get Mat on track and make him more like the book version, who is fun and interesting, as opposed to the show version, even before he got the dagger.


----------



## Ryujin

eyeheartawk said:


> I also hope they sort of get Mat on track and make him more like the book version, who is fun and interesting, as opposed to the show version, even before he got the dagger.



The most interesting thing will likely be that he's got a completely new face.


----------



## Demetrios1453

eyeheartawk said:


> Been busy over holiday break so catching up on this thread now.
> 
> I found the end of episode 8 to be clunky and kind of confusing, which, if you've read the books is to be expected as the end of the book is also clunky and kind of confusing concerning what happens at the Eye of the World.
> 
> I thought the Seanchan looked cool.
> 
> I have high hopes Season 2, since that's when things really start happening. And we'll see things like (hopefully) Rand becoming an actual interesting character, as without an internal monologue, he doesn't have much going on in the show right now.
> 
> I also hope they sort of get Mat on track and make him more like the book version, who is fun and interesting, as opposed to the show version, even before he got the dagger.



Everyone forgets, that, other than the few chapters before Shadar Logoth, book Mat was a paranoid jerk before he got fully healed in Book 3.


----------



## MarkB

Demetrios1453 said:


> Everyone forgets, that, other than the few chapters before Shadar Logoth, book Mat was a paranoid jerk before he got fully healed in Book 3.



Of all the things to stay faithful to from the books, keeping one of your main cast unlikeable for two seasons doesn't seem like the best choice.


----------



## Bolares

MarkB said:


> Of all the things to stay faithful to from the books, keeping one of your main cast unlikeable for two seasons doesn't seem like the best choice.



I'd bet he would get a lot better after being partially cured by moiraine... It just coincided with the actor leaving the production.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Parmandur said:


> Nyneave accomplishes more in the cosmic or metaphysical realm, Egwene accomplishes ridiculous political and military feats that feel like definitive Ta'veren shenanigans.



Egwene bends people to her will when they want not to be bent. Her ascension, capture, and asserting of command, in the latter books, is at least on par with Perrin.


----------



## Demetrios1453

MarkB said:


> Of all the things to stay faithful to from the books, keeping one of your main cast unlikeable for two seasons doesn't seem like the best choice.



Well, that's just character growth (and having a curse removed lol)


----------



## MarkB

Demetrios1453 said:


> Well, that's just character growth



And audience shrinkage.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

MarkB said:


> Of all the things to stay faithful to from the books, keeping one of your main cast unlikeable for two seasons doesn't seem like the best choice.



They need to make a better effort at showing that he is cursed/sick or whatever is that is actually going on. Because if you know he's dealing with some kind of influence (and maybe trying to resist even) it means there is something to root for.

I thought the scenes in the Two Rivers with him and his siblings made him pretty likeable, but he stopped that very quickly..

I am not a book reader, so I don't know how well my ideas would fit the original story. But I strongly suspect there would be some ways to portray him more likeable while he's still more grim, dur and and contrarian...


----------



## eyeheartawk

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am not a book reader, so I don't know how well my ideas would fit the original story. But I strongly suspect there would be some ways to portray him more likeable while he's still more grim, dur and and contrarian...



There is. It was done in the books. My concern is that if he isn't a likeable character he doesn't have anything interesting happen to his character plot wise until the very end of the second book (that's incidental, really). He _really_ only becomes plot relevant after a certain event happens in book 4. So that's a long way to stick with a character if he isn't interesting or fun to just watch hang around.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

eyeheartawk said:


> Been busy over holiday break so catching up on this thread now.




Just finished this show as well.

So ... things I like:

1. The scenery. Given that I was trapped in quarantine, seeing those landscapes was awesome. As a travel show, it's great. I'd go there! (On a sad note, in the Before Times, I was planning a trip to the wilds of Croatia and Slovenia ... which got cancelled. You suck, COVID!).

2. I really like Rosamund Pike and Danniel Henney and their characters.

3. I liked the actor and job done playing Mat. Okay, it was a little annoying at the end, and then he disappeared. 

Things I don't like:

A. The special effects. C'mon. Sure, it's not all bad, but sometimes it looks like something I might have seen in the 90s on a UHF channel.

B. The pacing. It was six episode of slow burn (sometimes VERY SLOW) and then two episodes of OHMYGODHEREISALLTHEPLOTANDWAITAMINUTEITSALLOVERNOW. I cannot recall watching a show that was more poorly plotted.

C. Almost all the characters. Yeah ... this is rough, but if a show is premised around five characters that might be the dragon, and I don't care about any of the five, that's not good? As far as I could tell, their defining characteristics seemed to be who would be more stupid.

D. The pacing, again. Seriously, that last episode was just insane- but not in a good way. Having a big battle like that doesn't matter if the viewer doesn't care about the stakes, at all. And I didn't.

So, yeah. It wasn't a complete waste of time, but it wasn't good.


----------



## Bolares

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Just finished this show as well.
> 
> So ... things I like:
> 
> 1. The scenery. Given that I was trapped in quarantine, seeing those landscapes was awesome. As a travel show, it's great. I'd go there! (On a sad note, in the Before Times, I was planning a trip to the wilds of Croatia and Slovenia ... which got cancelled. You suck, COVID!).
> 
> 2. I really like Rosamund Pike and Danniel Henney and their characters.
> 
> 3. I liked the actor and job done playing Mat. Okay, it was a little annoying at the end, and then he disappeared.
> 
> Things I don't like:
> 
> A. The special effects. C'mon. Sure, it's not all bad, but sometimes it looks like something I might have seen in the 90s on a UHF channel.
> 
> B. The pacing. It was six episode of slow burn (sometimes VERY SLOW) and then two episodes of OHMYGODHEREISALLTHEPLOTANDWAITAMINUTEITSALLOVERNOW. I cannot recall watching a show that was more poorly plotted.
> 
> C. Almost all the characters. Yeah ... this is rough, but if a show is premised around five characters that might be the dragon, and I don't care about any of the five, that's not good? As far as I could tell, their defining characteristics seemed to be who would be more stupid.
> 
> D. The pacing, again. Seriously, that last episode was just insane- but not in a good way. Having a big battle like that doesn't matter if the viewer doesn't care about the stakes, at all. And I didn't.
> 
> So, yeah. It wasn't a complete waste of time, but it wasn't good.



I thought you'd rate higher a show where they cut the bard to only one episode. Tom is with them for a lot more in the book.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Bolares said:


> I thought you'd rate higher a show where they cut the bard to only one episode. Tom is with them for a lot more in the book.




On the one hand, less bard.

On the other hand ... THERE IS A BARD.


----------



## Maxperson

Snarf Zagyg said:


> On the one hand, less bard.
> 
> On the other hand ... THERE IS A BARD.



They did make the Paladins bad guys, though.


----------



## Bolares

Snarf Zagyg said:


> On the one hand, less bard.
> 
> On the other hand ... THERE IS A BARD.



You can't cut a bard if there is no bard... now you have to choose what is best for you.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Bolares said:


> You can't cut a bard if there is no bard... now you have to choose what is best for you.




Oh, no. You're trying to employ some Joker-level logic on me, aren't you.

"C'mon Bats. Without me, you wouldn't exist. You complete me!"

Nope. Not falling for it. Bards are bad.


----------



## Bolares

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Oh, no. You're trying to employ some Joker-level logic on me, aren't you.
> 
> "C'mon Bats. Without me, you wouldn't exist. You complete me!"
> 
> Nope. Not falling for it. Bards are bad.



You have to admit... that was a close one.


----------



## MarkB

Bolares said:


> You can't cut a bard if there is no bard... now you have to choose what is best for you.



You can cut them further, though.

Mat: "Hey Rand, I met this musician guy while you were chopping wood, he gave me all this cool exposition."

Rand: "Sounds like a nice guy. Can I meet him?"

Mat: "No, unfortunately he tripped and impaled himself on his own lute. Tragic, really."


----------



## Zardnaar

Not as good as season 2 of Witcher but I liked it still.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Snarf Zagyg said:


> On the one hand, less bard.
> 
> On the other hand ... THERE IS A BARD.



He's no mere bard. He's graduated to gleeman. Respect the cloak.


----------



## Bolares

Benjamin Olson said:


> He's no mere bard. He's graduated to gleeman. Respect the cloak.



Oh sure, he's a super bard. Good luck trying to convince Snarf that this is a good thing.


----------



## Parmandur

Technically,  he's a Rogue with the Entertainer Background.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Bolares said:


> Oh sure, he's a super bard. Good luck trying to convince Snarf that this is a good thing.



I would never imagine there being the shadow of a chance of convincing Snarf to have a positive view of anything bard adjacent. This isn't my first day around here.


----------



## Zardnaar

Death to bards!!


----------



## eyeheartawk

I agree about the pacing. This show could have used a 10 episode season. Next season will also be 8 episodes. I'm hoping season 3 and beyond are 10 episodes. 

Another thing about the limited time is that they also didn't use all the time they were given efficiently. Why did we spend an so much time on Sad Warder Man when his character and the background color he adds, aren't really important enough to warrant jettisoning world building in the first season of a big fantasy show or at the expense of character bits for characters who desperately needed them like Perrin.


----------



## Mannahnin

eyeheartawk said:


> I agree about the pacing. This show could have used a 10 episode season. Next season will also be 8 episodes. I'm hoping season 3 and beyond are 10 episodes.
> 
> Another thing about the limited time is that they also didn't use all the time they were given efficiently. Why did we spend an so much time on Sad Warder Man when his character and the background color he adds, aren't really important enough to warrant jettisoning world building in the first season of a big fantasy show or at the expense of character bits for characters who desperately needed them like Perrin.



I think the intent WAS worldbuilding, in terms of the Warder/Aes Sedai bond.  In addition to just being dramatic television, it gives us more stakes/understanding of Lan/Moraine's dynamic, and that of other Warders and AS.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Mannahnin said:


> I think the intent WAS worldbuilding, in terms of the Warder/Aes Sedai bond.  In addition to just being dramatic television, it gives us more stakes/understanding of Lan/Moraine's dynamic, and that of other Warders and AS.



Without a doubt, that was the intent. And I'm not saying it serves _no_ purpose. I'm just saying there were more important things they could have spent that time on.


----------



## Maxperson

Parmandur said:


> Technically,  he's a Rogue with the Entertainer Background.



There's a word for that.


----------



## Maxperson

Zardnaar said:


> Death to bards!!



Hmm.  That actually works the other way as well.

Bards, to death!


----------



## Ryujin

Maxperson said:


> Hmm.  That actually works the other way as well.
> 
> Bards, to death!











						Lord Of The Rings For Frodo GIF - Lord Of The Rings For Frodo Running - Discover & Share GIFs
					

Click to view the GIF




					tenor.com


----------



## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> Hmm.  That actually works the other way as well.
> 
> Bards, to death!



To bards, death!


----------



## Parmandur

Maxperson said:


> There's a word for that.



Nah, he doesn't have any musical magic powers. Just a Rogue, probably an Assassin, actually.


----------



## Mannahnin

eyeheartawk said:


> Without a doubt, that was the intent. And I'm not saying it serves _no_ purpose. I'm just saying there were more important things they could have spent that time on.



Possibly true.  I haven't read the books, but by all indications, 8 episodes a season is darn short to try to cover the events.  This setup may pay storytelling dividends later, though.


----------



## Parmandur

Mannahnin said:


> Possibly true.  I haven't read the books, but by all indications, 8 episodes a season is darn short to try to cover the events.  This setup may pay storytelling dividends later, though.



They literally skip over most of the book. At least they have a whole series plan in place, to make it their own thing.


----------



## Bolares

I'm listenning to the book... Jordan sure does take his time to make anything happen  .Baerlon was a good cut from the series, nothing really happened that could only happen there. The shad Rand encounter was pointless...


----------



## Ryujin

Parmandur said:


> Nah, he doesn't have any musical magic powers. Just a Rogue, probably an Assassin, actually.



Judging by his season 2 intro, he's the audio version of a Shadow Dancer. Immediately started assassinating Geralt's character.


----------



## Maxperson

According to my WotC Wheel of Time RPG Gleemen have a sort of magical power and their songs do magical things.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I'm listenning to the book... Jordan sure does take his time to make anything happen  .Baerlon as a good cut from the series, nothing really happened that could only happen there. The shad Rand encounter was pointless...



He takes his time.

There are several important things that happen in Baerlon specifically: Rand's Channeling sickness, meeting Min Farshaw (who ends up being the #7 viewpoint character by word count in the series, the most of anyone other than the Villagers and Moraine), the initiation of a feud with the Borneholds.

The Shade scene is amazing just for the sense of atmosphere in the prose and the milk spit double take that Rand does. The encounters with dark forces in this book are a drip drip form of torture driving the characters to desperation and near insanity by the end. The show moves a bit too fast to get that across, it seems.

The main thing that Baerlon specifically provides over the course of the book is a sense of scale. It's about 50-60 miles from Edmond's Field, and is bout the extent of the distance the youths can even imagine geographically, but us just the start of this journey, which gets detailed out very carefully. No flash forwards here.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> He takes his time.
> 
> There are several important things that happen in Baerlon specifically: Rand's Channeling sickness, meeting Min Farshaw (who ends up being the #7 viewpoint character by word count in the series, the most of anyone other than the Villagers and Moraine), the initiation of a feud with the Borneholds.
> 
> The Shade scene is amazing just for the sense of atmosphere in the prose and the milk spit double take that Rand does. The encounters with dark forces in this book are a drip drip form of torture driving the characters to desperation and near insanity by the end. The show moves a bit too fast to get that across, it seems.
> 
> The main thing that Baerlon specifically provides over the course of the book is a sense of scale. It's about 50-60 miles from Edmond's Field, and is bout the extent of the distance the youths can even imagine geographically, but us just the start of this journey, which gets detailed out very carefully. No flash forwards here.



I know a lot happens there. I said nothing really happened *that could only happen there.  *

About the shade... I don't know, it made a shade feel really mundane to me. I was under the impression a shade was a really dangerous being, but nothing really happens to rand (besides him being terrified) when a shade gets that close to him.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I know a lot happens there. I said nothing really happened *that could only happen there.  *
> 
> About the shade... I don't know, it made a shade feel really mundane to me. I was under the impression a shade was a really dangerous being, but nothing really happens to rand (besides him being terrified) when a shade gets that close to him.



Fair point: I think the showrunners are perfectly right to condense, combine and streamline the story for screen. As written, it is unfilmable, due to it's literary density.

For Jordan, the little details like the personalities of village innkeepers and the set up of different taverns is almost as important as the entire story. Not conducive to the pacing, but rich for worldbuilding.

Shades are nasty, but not impossible to handle. They suffer pretty quickly from power inflation on the part of the protagonists.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> Fair point: I think the showrunners are perfectly right to condense, combine and streamline the story for screen. As written, it is unfilmable, due to it's literary density.
> 
> For Jordan, the little details like the personalities of village innkeepers and the set up of different taverns is almost as important as the entire story. Not conducive to the pacing, but rich for worldbuilding.
> 
> Shades are nasty, but not impossible to handle. They suffer pretty quickly from power inflation on the part of the protagonists.



I was mostly joking about Jordan. He is kind of a slow burn, but I find his writing pleasant to read, when I'm not in a hurry. The shade scene, I'd be ok with if the shade had an obstacle between it and rand for that whole time. I can't see a reason why the shade didn't just take rand out of there immediately.


----------



## Parmandur

Bolares said:


> I was mostly joking about Jordan. He is kind of a slow burn, but I find his writing pleasant to read, when I'm not in a hurry. The shade scene, I'd be ok with if the shade had an obstacle between it and rand for that whole time. I can't see a reason why the shade didn't just take rand out of there immediately.



When push comes to shove, it's a coward, and wasn't about to be caught in a pincer maneuver in a hallway that could lead to it's death. And it is under orders to not take out the boys, and is there as a scout.


----------



## Bolares

Parmandur said:


> When push comes to shove, it's a coward, and wasn't about to be caught in a pincer maneuver in a hallway that could lead to it's death. And it is under orders to not take out the boys, and is there as a scout.



Hence my impression of it being very mundane


----------



## eyeheartawk

Mannahnin said:


> Possibly true.  I haven't read the books, but by all indications, 8 episodes a season is darn short to try to cover the events.  This setup may pay storytelling dividends later, though.



I hope so too, though I'm cautious. The next season of eight episodes will combine events from books 2 and 3, instead of one book. And those two are some of the easier books to plan a show on. As the book series goes on, the climax of the books stops seeing all the characters at the same place and time.


----------



## Thunderfoot

Well, while I haven't gotten to see the show, my step-brother gave me this advice.  If you are a fan of the books, don't expect a faithful telling.  

Think of it more as a re-boot and go from there.  Judge it on it's own and not against the book, the ahow's runners said it's more of a guideline.

So, there you go.  If something doesn't quite line-up, it's probably meant to be that way.  Also, I would expect large parts to just be skipped: Loial, The War as a whole(back drop), The Mannetherin Rising, etc.  Only because a 22 year program is unfeasible.   lol


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Thunderfoot said:


> Well, while I haven't gotten to see the show, my step-brother gave me this advice.  If you are a fan of the books, don't expect a faithful telling.
> 
> Think of it more as a re-boot and go from there.  Judge it on it's own and not against the book, the ahow's runners said it's more of a guideline.
> 
> So, there you go.  If something doesn't quite line-up, it's probably meant to be that way.  Also, I would expect large parts to just be skipped: Loial, The War as a whole(back drop), The Mannetherin Rising, etc.  Only because a 22 year program is unfeasible.   lol



I enjoyed it well enough as someone who hadn't read the books. But that involved me giving it a lot of benefit of the doubt that the reasons for the weaker aspects had to do with the necessities of editing it down or flaws with the source material. As a work of cheesy television fantasy its fine.

My feelings now as someone who just read the first book is that as a "reboot" it's a pretty mediocre one. Changing things was necessary, sure. The original work was not some perfect, unimpeachable masterpiece, sure. But every change they made caused something else in this intricately thought out fantasy world to unravel, and whatever consortium of overworked, on-a-deadline television writers were in charge of the adapting collectively just allowed this to leave lots of plot-holes, world-building inconsistencies, and frustratingly annoying character traits. They had lots of solid ideas for ways to simplify, streamline, or bring in line with contemporary tastes, but they also had poor, messy execution of those ideas.  As they veer further from the source material later in the season it works a little bit better on its own terms, but has more inconsistencies, has more frustrating characters, and fills in a lot of gaps with generic, budget television fantasy cliché. If you have read and actually remember book 1 of the series I think it's a dissatisfying show to watch, even trying to appreciate it on its own terms. If you have investment in the series it lets you down.

There are also lots of things that happen just because the show doesn't trust its audience to pay very close attention, be very patient, or understand things that are not made incredibly obvious, making it just not the type of show that fits well for someone who has the sort of patience, recall, and passion for the genre the books seem to require. So whether or not someone has actually read the books, if you are the _type_ of person who would actually enjoy a fantasy series with literal thousands of named characters the show isn't really optimized for your enjoyment.


----------



## Mordhau

I don't know.  You might also give someone the advice that "even if you've read the books, don't necessarily dismiss the show".


----------



## TheSword

It’s very much season 7 of Game of Thrones in my opinion. Liked for nostalgia, likeable actors and for novelty factor. But slightly disappointing with some pretty stupendous plot holes, and a lot of unnecessary changes.


----------



## Parmandur

TheSword said:


> It’s very much season 7 of Game of Thrones in my opinion. Liked for nostalgia, likeable actors and for novelty factor. But slightly disappointing with some pretty stupendous plot holes, and a lot of unnecessary changes.



Which, to be honest, is better than I ever expected from a Wheel of time adaptation. Going over the books again, they really are unfilmable, from a practical point of view.


----------

