# [PHB II]Sorcerer Metamagic Specialist - Too Much?



## Psion (May 16, 2006)

As some may know by now, the sorcerer variant in PHBII is the metamagic specialist. Long story short, a limited number of times per day, you can ignore the time restriction on metamagic (in exchange for giving up the familiar). Yes, sorcerers can actually quicken spells with this...

This seems a little scary to me. And yet, I have often felt the sorcerer is a bit weak. Is this variant enough to bring them into their own?

Anyone had any play time with this one yet?


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## bpkri (May 16, 2006)

Hmm, I might agree on the Sorcerer being a bit weak or boring, because it is very hard for him to reach PrCs and this become really different. (It's not impossible, but very difficult and you often have to sacrifice variability and even usefullness for the group to reach the goal).

Mostly a Sorcerer only goes up in levels. You pick up spells. You pick what few skills you have and every now and then you can actually gain a feat. But that's it.

I'd think twice about giving up the familiar. Ofcourse being able to cast metamagic even better would be a great improvement though IMHO it adresses the wrong problem. And it can be damn powerful. So you might get a very pwoerful character (maybe! unbalancingly powerful) who still can't properly evolve into something else.

I don't know if anyone here knows the Warhammer Fantasy RP, but I am slowly beginning to see the advantages of their career-system...


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## SidusLupus (May 16, 2006)

When I looked over this it seemed too good.

Why wouldnt every sorc in the world give up a familiar to get use metamagic feats on the fly without increasing the casting time? However, if it's limited per day uses then it might not be so horrible. 

If there is a limiter can you post what it is please?


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## MarkB (May 16, 2006)

SidusLupus said:
			
		

> When I looked over this it seemed too good.
> 
> Why wouldnt every sorc in the world give up a familiar to get use metamagic feats on the fly without increasing the casting time? However, if it's limited per day uses then it might not be so horrible.
> 
> If there is a limiter can you post what it is please?



3 + INT modifier. So another effect of this option is to give sorcerers a bit of Multiple Attribute Dependency.


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## Thanee (May 16, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> This seems a little scary to me.




While I havn't tried it yet, I know of others who used something like this (most importantly the spontaneous usability of Quicken Spell) *as a standard (house) rule* without any cost or limit attached, and had no problems (tho, I would suspect that this is a bit much, really).

The big thing is only Quicken Spell and the ability to use it spontaneously, the rest is just being able to move and cast, something all other casters can do already.

To compare with existing stuff... is this much better than Arcane Preparation (cost is about the same... one feat (using Obtain Familiar as a point of comparison))? I don't think it is much of a difference. The spontaneous use is good, but the daily limit puts a damper on this ability, so you cannot overuse it and will have to decide in every situation, whether it is now a good time to use it, much like with the few prepared spells you have prepared with Arcane Preparation; most often you know what spells you want to use with what metamagic, anyways. Having a few slots prepared beforehand is not such a big deal for a sorcerer. It's probably slightly better, but not that much.

And then there are the psionic users, which also can apply their metamagic equivalent spontaneous with no daily limit (but the Psionic Focus limitation instead). Might very well be one reason why we now have this ability. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Kerrick (May 16, 2006)

> While I havn't tried it yet, I know of others who used something like this (most importantly the spontaneous usability of Quicken Spell) *as a standard (house) rule* without any cost or limit attached, and had no problems (tho, I would suspect that this is a bit much, really).




Our group does... sorcerers suffer no increased casting time for metamagic. Course, we also play a high-power, high-magic campaign... But, this doesn't make sorcerers significantly stronger.



> Why wouldnt every sorc in the world give up a familiar to get use metamagic feats on the fly without increasing the casting time?




Hmm... because otherwise they'd still suck? I mean seriously... familiars are pretty well useless, and getting to cast even a few metamagicked spells per day is a big deal. I don't think it's too much.


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## KarinsDad (May 16, 2006)

The time for a Sorcerer to cast a metamagic spell is not a one round spell. It is a full round action. In other words, he uses up a full round action to cast the metamagic spell and it goes off immediately. He can even 5' step with it.


PHB II also had a statement in it on how to run Sorcerers that implied that they suck at metamagic cause it takes too long to cast. This implies that the author thought that Sorcerer metamagic spells are like Summon Monster spells in that they take a one round spell.


Casting metamagic on the fly is VERY powerful and all you give up for it is a move action. To me, this makes core rule Sorcerers much stronger than core rule Wizards. Sorcerers are only wimpier than Wizards (IMO) if they do not take a lot of metamagic feats.

So, maybe the authors thought that Sorcerers were giving up a semi-useful Familiar in order to gain non-one round casting metamagic.

But in reality, they are giving up the familiar to gain a move action on rounds they metamagic cast. This is not typically that big of a deal.


I do think that allowing Sorcerers to Quicken on the fly is too powerful and I do not think this varient Sorcerer actually gains this (unless the text explicitly states that he does).



> Special: This feat can’t be applied to *any spell cast spontaneously* (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.




Regardless of whether the Variant Sorcerer could cast metamagic on the fly as a standard action, the casting time can be considered irrelevant. The casting is still spontaneous, hence, Quicken Spell cannot be applied to the spell. Granted, the reason for this restriction is also listed here, but it does not state that if the reason no longer applies for spontaneous spells, then the restriction no longer applies. A given DM could rule that way though.


A Sorcerer (variant or normal) could prepare a Quicken spell ahead of time if he took both the Arcane Preparation and the Quicken Spell feat, but that still limits the Quicken to a number of times per day and the actual spells for which he prepared them. He could not do this on the fly.


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## Caliban (May 16, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> I do think that allowing Sorcerers to Quicken on the fly is too powerful and I do not think this varient Sorcerer actually gains this (unless the text explicitly states that he does).




The text explicitly states that Quickened spells are possible with this variant.


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## KarinsDad (May 16, 2006)

Caliban said:
			
		

> The text explicitly states that Quickened spells are possible with this variant.




In that case, I consider the variant class too potent.

Spontaneous Quicken means two spells per round on probably about a half dozen or more rounds at high and epic levels (if someone took the variant class, they would probably make sure they at least had a +6 Headband of Intellect at high levels).

Other spell casters can rarely do this since they are limited to Prepared Quickened spells. And, other spell casters could not spontaneously change which spell they have Quickened. The Alternate Sorcerer would only be limited by the number of 5th and higher level spell slots and the number per day he could do this for.

This is why Arcane Preparation is not too potent. It takes up a feat (the variant class does not, it gives up the Familiar, big deal) and it still limits Quicken spells to prepared spells (both in number and in which spell is prepared as Quickened).


The high level Sorcerer could save his 6 or so standard action metamagic castings for when he really needs them and he could still cast two spontaneous metamagicked spells in a single round up to 6+ times per day (the full round casting of the second spell is not a big deal).

Additionally, he could take Arcane Preparation and cast even more Metamagicked Quickened spells per day. Granted, a normal Sorcerer (or spell caster) could do this as well, but the Variant Sorcerer has the flexibility to only prepare Metamagicked Quickened spells he knows he will need and then can still spontaneously cast others.

Throw some Incantrix levels into the mix and he has a boatload of metamagic feats to choose from.


The variant class is fine trading the familiar for the move action a limited number of times per day.

But, no class should get Spontaneous Quickened Metamagic casting. IMO. It's game breaking for similar reasons as to why Haste was game breaking in 3E. If someone wants to Spontaneously cast two metamagic spells in a single round, they should get themself a Sorcerer or Favored Soul cohort that the DM can blow up.


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## Derren (May 16, 2006)

You know that there is Accelerate Metamagic which removes the 1 full action limitation of the metamagic feat you choose (of course quicken).
Ok, its dragonblood only but have you seen how good spellscales are for sorcerers anway? With that in mind (and the existence of quicken metamagic rods), no the sorcerer variant is not too strong. Even if the full round limitation gets removed complelty the sorcerer would still be fine thanks to his slower spell level advancment.


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## Aust Diamondew (May 16, 2006)

Sorcerers (all spontaneous casters) in my games could always use metamagic with no restrictions so I don't think it is too much of a big deal.
It just makes sorcerers more fun to play (full round spell casting sucks).


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## Mistwell (May 16, 2006)

I do not feel this is overpowered in any way.

In fact, I don't see it as a big deal.  Heck, I think it was already a common house rule.

So what if sorcerors can now actually use quicken spell...good for them! I always thought it was rather unfair that book-learners could use that feat but spontaneous casters could not.  And given the extremely limited number of spells a spontaneous caster has compared to the book-caster, I already thought it was balanced with those factors alone.

I do not think familiars are nearly as bad as most people seem to think they are, by the way.


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## ThirdWizard (May 16, 2006)

I think its fine. I also lower Quicken to be +3 instead of +4 and have allowed sorcerers to Quicken already, so YMMV.


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## Savage Wombat (May 16, 2006)

Not to mention that a sorcerer can't throw that many spells as quickened, since he he has fewer high-level spell slots than he does lower-level ones.  Throw that quickened Fireball and you lose the ability to throw an empowered Cone of Cold later.


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## Stalker0 (May 16, 2006)

I agree, I use this ruling as a standard houserule, with no problems withsoever.

Sorcs get very few spells known and they get high level spells slower than a wizard. Combine the fact that wizards can use things like wands and pearls of power to bump up the times they can use certain spells, and sorcs don't really get that much more than wizards.

I don't think this ruling makes sorcs too powerful, I think this ruling should have been given to sorcs in the first place.


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## Caliban (May 16, 2006)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> I think its fine. I also lower Quicken to be +3 instead of +4 and have allowed sorcerers to Quicken already, so YMMV.




Madness!  Heresy!


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## KarinsDad (May 16, 2006)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> So what if sorcerors can now actually use quicken spell...good for them! I always thought it was rather unfair that book-learners could use that feat but spontaneous casters could not.




So do you also think it is unfair that Sorcerers can Spontaneously Metamagic, but book-learners cannot?


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## Stalker0 (May 16, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> So do you also think it is unfair that Sorcerers can Spontaneously Metamagic, but book-learners cannot?




Sponteanous magic is what the sorc does!! That's the reason you play sorcs!! Book learners get higher level magics faster, and they get a butt load more variety in the spells they can cast. But they pay for it by having to prepare ahead of time.

Sponteanity is what the sorc does, I say let him do it well.


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## KarinsDad (May 16, 2006)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Sponteanous magic is what the sorc does!! That's the reason you play sorcs!! Book learners get higher level magics faster, and they get a butt load more variety in the spells they can cast. But they pay for it by having to prepare ahead of time.
> 
> Sponteanity is what the sorc does, I say let him do it well.




The point of my question was:

Why is the rules as written fair for Wizards, but not fair for Sorcerers?


I too have no problem with Sorcerers getting good Spontaneous Metamagic, as long as they cannot Spontaneously Quicken which allows them to cast two spells per round most rounds at high levels. It is not only fair that they cannot do this, it is the rule.


Mistwell was indicating that it is unfair that Sorcerers cannot Quicken a spell. There's nothing unfair about that at all (especially considering that they can take Arcane Preparation to use Quicken Spell), just like there is nothing unfair that Wizards cannot Metamagic on the Fly. Each class has strengths and weaknesses.


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## Stalker0 (May 16, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> I too have no problem with Sorcerers getting good Spontaneous Metamagic, as long as they cannot Spontaneously Quicken which allows them to cast two spells per round most rounds at high levels. It is not only fair that they cannot do this, it is the rule.




Thing is, Wizards can do the same thing, they just have to be a little craftier at it. A wizard can prepare quickened fireballs and scorching rays and the like, and cast 2 spells a round just like a sorc could if you allow quicken to work for them. Sorcs have the advantage in that they can quicken any spell they want, when they want. Wizards have the advantage in that they can quicken higher level spells, and they have more types of spells they can quicken. Each has an advantage in its own way.


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## Seeten (May 16, 2006)

I like RAW for Wizards, and not for Sorcs because Sorcs blow and Wizards are ungodly potent. So, I loosen restrictions for Sorcs, so that they dont blow and approach more of the power level of wizards, whom they are supposed to rival.


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> So do you also think it is unfair that Sorcerers can Spontaneously Metamagic, but book-learners cannot?




I am not against the concept of a feat or ability that lets wizards spontaneously apply metamagic feats to prepared spells.  In fact I think I have said as much in debates with you.


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## ThirdWizard (May 17, 2006)

Caliban said:
			
		

> Madness!  Heresy!




Two things I live for.


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## Li Shenron (May 17, 2006)

I believe that the Familiar is worth more than a feat, so this alternative ability to having a familiar seems appropriately powerful.

Plus, Sorcerers were indeed weakened by 3.5, so no problem to give them a boost.


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## Thanee (May 17, 2006)

Does Metamagic Specialist apply to metamagic rods, i.e. does it allow the sorcerer to use metamagic rods with no increase in casting time (using up one daily charge for the ability, of course)?

Bye
Thanee


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## Imruphel (May 17, 2006)

Sorcerers IMC can spontaneously metamagic spells without an increase in casting time and have a wider skill list (all of the Cha-based skills, including Use Magic Device) and four skill points per level. Rather than making them overpowered, it makes them nearly as effective as wizards. Oh, and they also get bonus metamagic feats every five or so levels.

The big killer from a player's point of view is that they lag a level behind wizards in getting new spells. While that often doesn't matter in a "one-shot", it can make an enormous difference in a campaign.


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## KarinsDad (May 17, 2006)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Thing is, Wizards can do the same thing, they just have to be a little craftier at it. A wizard can prepare quickened fireballs and scorching rays and the like, and cast 2 spells a round just like a sorc could if you allow quicken to work for them. Sorcs have the advantage in that they can quicken any spell they want, when they want. Wizards have the advantage in that they can quicken higher level spells, and they have more types of spells they can quicken. Each has an advantage in its own way.




Thing is, Sorcerers can do the same thing, they just have to be a little craftier at it. A Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation can prepare quickened fireballs and scorching rays and the like, and cast 2 spells a round just like a Wizard could. Sorcs have the advantage in that they can put other metamagic on any quickened spell they want, when they want. Wizards have the advantage in that they can quicken higher level spells (every other level), and they have more types of spells they can quicken. Each has an advantage in its own way.


Seriously here, what is good for the goose is good for the gander and vice versa. No real reason to change the rules.

The problem is not with Quicken. The problem is not with Spontaneous Metamagic.

The problem is with Spontaneous Quicken where the only limit is the number of higher level spell slots. Two spells per round on the fly until you run out of higher level spells is not balanced. Hence, the reason they nerfed Haste for 3.5.

Even with this Variant Sorcerer where they gave up the Familiar, the Sorcerer still is limited to 3+Int times per day. Even WotC recognized that this is potent and should be limited in some fashion. For a normal Sorcerer, it is limited in that he must take Arcane Preparation to do it and he is limited in what he prepares ahead of time.

However, the Variant Sorcerer would be smart to take Arcane Preparation and Incantrix and really kick butt with metamagic and Quicken spells.


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## Kunimatyu (May 17, 2006)

Well, Incantrix is scary broken, just in going by the number of times it pops up in Character Optimization on the WotC forums.

But, if you take a look at mid-high-level Living Greyhawk play, where people squeeze every last ounce of effectiveness out of their characteres, Sorcerors pale in comparison to Wizards. Spontaneous casting is nice, but when you know all the spells inside and out, having a precise list augmented by pearls of power is far, far, far nastier.

I've got no problems with the alternate Sorceror ability. IMC, I also allow Sorcerors a bonus Heritage feat at first level(usually Draconic) and a bonus heritage or metamagic feat every 5 levels thereafter. Has it been a problem? Nope. I've also considered allowing the two dragonblood sorceror feats (reduce all metamagic level increases by 1, minimum 1 and use metamagic freely without a casting increase) available to sorcerors in general.


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## Derren (May 17, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> The problem is with Spontaneous Quicken where the only limit is the number of higher level spell slots. Two spells per round on the fly until you run out of higher level spells is not balanced. Hence, the reason they nerfed Haste for 3.5.





So? And what would you think would happen if a wizard pepares half of his spells as quickened? You have the same result.


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## Kerrick (May 17, 2006)

> Sorcerers IMC can spontaneously metamagic spells without an increase in casting time and have a wider skill list (all of the Cha-based skills, including Use Magic Device) and four skill points per level. Rather than making them overpowered, it makes them nearly as effective as wizards. Oh, and they also get bonus metamagic feats every five or so levels.




Same here. Do you give them a d6 HD too?



> The problem is with Spontaneous Quicken where the only limit is the number of higher level spell slots. Two spells per round on the fly until you run out of higher level spells is not balanced. Hence, the reason they nerfed Haste for 3.5.




I've got a simple solution for that - just rule that you can't cast two spells in a round. Personally, I think casting multiple spells a round (at non-epic levels) is a bit powerful, and I play in a high-magic, high-power campaign.


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2006)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Well, Incantrix is scary broken, just in going by the number of times it pops up in Character Optimization on the WotC forums.




I think it's unfair for you to condemn the entire class merely based on the number of times it appears on the CO board.

Almost all mentions of that class on that board (which is spelled Incantatrix by the way) also mentioned Persistant Spell for the prestige class.  If you don't have that feat however, in my opnion it's a much more reasonable prestige class.

I play an Incantatar, and I find it to be no more or less powerful than a standard wizard.  They are much more focused on metamagic, however they tend to be less flexible and have fewer spell slots at any given time.  If you are a relatively non-abusive player, I think the class is quite balanced and fun to play.

For the record, the overwhelming majority of my uses of the abilities of the Incantatrix prestige class is to extend 1/hr/lev spells to be 2/hr/lev spells.  Nor do I think that is particularly atypical, since most uses of the prestige class only apply to EXISTING spell effects and not instantaneous ones.  It's not a class about throwing quickened empowered maximized fireballs around, if that's what you thought it did.  It's a lot more subtle in it's abilities for most of the levels of that prestige class.


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## KarinsDad (May 17, 2006)

Derren said:
			
		

> So? And what would you think would happen if a wizard pepares half of his spells as quickened? You have the same result.




No, you would have a different result since he cannot Spontaneously Quicken his spells. He has to prepare ahead of time, hence, is limited. If he prepares the wrong spells to Quicken, he's hosed. Additionally, the Wizard can already do this in the game with one feat and the Sorcerer can already do this in the game with two feats.

Also, if the Wizard Quickens half of his prepared spells, it means that he has used up slots that could have had more utility, situation depending, even if he does not need a Quickened spell all day.


Again, it is not Quicken which is the problem. It is the flexibility of Spontaneous Quicken. If you can Spontaneously Quicken and need half of your high level slots Quickened, you can do it on the fly. If you need none of them Quickened, you can do that too. If you need all of them Quickened, you can do that too.

This is a totally different and much more flexible and potent set of functionality than selecting some spells to Quicken at the beginning of the day.


Note: There have been massive debates on the metamagic rods in the past. However, the one aspect of them that nobody seems to argue about is that the Quickened Metamagic rods are extremely expensive:

35,000 gp (lesser), 75,500 gp (normal), 170,000 gp (greater)

Spontaneously Quickening is a *very* potent ability. The Variant Sorcerer effectively gets the equivalent of lesser (and eventually normal) Quickened Metamagic Rod (of the appropriate power) with the exception that the level of the spell does get increased (a Con), he can typically do this more times per day than the Rod (a Pro), and he can do it as an ability, so he cannot lose the ability like he could lose the Rod (another Pro).

This is still like trading the familiar and a single feat (Quicken Spell) for 10s of thousands of GP worth of ability. It's practically like giving the very potent Quicken Metamagic Rod to the Variant Sorcerer. Sorry, but that's both unfair to other PCs and broken. The Quicken Spell feat was not intended to be that powerful.


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## dagger (May 17, 2006)

I don't think its that big a deal because they will have so few higher level spell slots anyway.


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## Victim (May 17, 2006)

Yeah, except the whole point of the rod is that it does not use a higher level slot, thus characters with them can Quicken their highest levels spells.  

Wizards do things with preparation, Sorcerers casts their spells spontaneously.  I hardly see how applying this paradigm to quickened spells are problematic.  Sure, multiple spells per round is really good.  However, using quicken, even for a sorcerer, comes with its own rather steep costs.  There's really not much point to sorcerers having tons of spells per day if they never get to use them.


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## Warmage-in-Onley (May 17, 2006)

Let's check out a potential use of the new Quicken for sorcerers.  Let's take a 15th level Sorc and do the following:  Quickened Hailstones (uses 7th level slot) for 51 avg damage (assuming you can make 3 ranged touch attacks with your base +7 to hit) and no save, followed by Empowered Moonbow (uses 7th level slot) for 126 avg damage (again assuming you can make 3 ranged touch attacks with your base +7 to hit) and no save.  Assuming a touch AC of 12 you will fail to hit with 20% of your rta's, your misses will cost you an average of 35 damage in a round.  Net damage from this tactic = 142 pts of damage/round, and the Sorc can do this twice before he's all outta 7th level slots.  2 rounds and 284 points of damage.  Simply using Empowered Moonbow with the same miss chances you could do 101 points of damage/round for 4 rounds.  Using this example (which is situational) you can see how much damage you give up by Quickening to max attack.  The Sorc can do this on the fly, I think you'd really have to plan the Wizard's attack to match this (even with that 8th level spell).  Whew, I need a break.


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## KarinsDad (May 17, 2006)

Victim said:
			
		

> Yeah, except the whole point of the rod is that it does not use a higher level slot, thus characters with them can Quicken their highest levels spells.




I do not think that this is the whole point of the rod at all. It is a feature of the rod, but not the intent.

That was a rule that was most likely applied to the rods due to game mechanic problems with the concept if the designers did not make it that way. If they did not add a simple rule like this, they instead would have had to add a rule such as preparation casters have to give up the low level spell (e.g. 2nd level Mirror Image) plus the high level spell (e.g. 6th level Chain Lightning) in order to cast the Quicken lower level spell (e.g. Quicken Mirror Image). Or possibly, preparation casters have to have the low level spell (e.g. 2nd level Mirror Image) available plus cast the high level spell (e.g. 6th level Chain Lightning) in order to cast the Quicken lower level spell (e.g. Quicken Mirror Image). Additionally, if they did not add the rule they did, then the 170K GP Rod probably would not exist.

I suspect that they needed a simple rule and hence, metamagic rods do not increase the spell slot of the base spell. Otherwise, they would have had to write down paragraphs of explanation and examples on how to use the rod.


The whole point of the rod is to give the feat to a caster who does not have the feat. The not increasing the spell level is a secondary (although potent) effect.

But, I doubt the designers sat down and said "Hey, let's make an item to give metamagic to casters who do not have it at a cheaper cost!". I suspect they said "Hey, let's make an item to give metamagic to casters who do not have it!" and the cheaper cost was a result of the difficulties of just effectively giving the feat to casters who prepare spells.


Granted, the 170K Greater Quicken Metamagic Rod does give abilities beyond what the feat alone can do. This is Epic Spell casting level of magic, but not really relevant as to whether Spontaneous Quicken is too potent or not to give to a character with a single feat (e.g. Quicken Spell).


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## KarinsDad (May 17, 2006)

Warmage-in-Onley said:
			
		

> Let's check out a potential use of the new Quicken for sorcerers.  Let's take a 15th level Sorc and do the following:  Quickened Hailstones ...




Quickening an attack spell is a poor example of why a Sorcerer would want to use Quicken.

A Sorcerer would typically use quicken for a low level defensive spell or miscellaneous spell, not an attack spell.

For example:

Round one: Quicken Improved Invisibility, cast an offensive spell, move
Round two: Quicken Fly, cast an offensive spell, fly up and away
Round three: Quicken Protection From Evil so the summoned creature that can see you cannot touch you, cast an offensive spell, fly away

Etc.

This is the power of Spontaneous Quicken.

Sure, you could use it for back to back offensive spells, but it works much better for low level defensive and miscellaneous spells. It also works well for getting multiple defensive spells up in a short period of time. A regular caster can get one defensive spell up and one offensive spell in the first two rounds (shy of immediate spells). A Spontaneous Quicken caster can get up 3 defensive spells and an offensive spell in the same amount of time.

In DND, number of actions is critical to success.

Quicken False Life, Quicken True Strike followed by a 95% chance to hit with the touch spell on the same round, Quicken Bear's Endurance, Quicken Dispel Magic, etc. These are the real potent uses of Quicken and for a Spontaneous Quicken caster, you do not have to prepare these. You can cast whichever ones you want whenever you want. A prepared caster might have Quicken True Strike prepared, but his Empowered Scorching Ray might not do anything against a fire immune creature, so both of these spells are worthless for this encounter (and possibly for the entire day).


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## Ditch (May 17, 2006)

Sorc's get Arcane Preparation to mem spells and Wizards get Spell Mastery + Signature Spell to channel spells.    

For the record, couldn't a Sorc use a _Pearl of Power (7th)_ to get back a quickened fireball that they prepared with arcane preparation?


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## Derren (May 17, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> This is the power of Spontaneous Quicken.





And a wizard can do exactly the same. Oh sure he has to prepare them quickened and the sorcerer can quicken them spontaneously but this is simply the advantage sorcerers have.

Or are you saying that the sorcerer is overpowered because he can spontaneoulsy cast spells and a wizard has to prepare them? Thats exactly the same situation. Quickening just increases the level. You would probably better off disallowing the sorcerer alltogether as you have such a big problem with a caster having the right spells for the right situation.


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## Staffan (May 17, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> The point of my question was:
> 
> Why is the rules as written fair for Wizards, but not fair for Sorcerers?



Because when Tweet, Cook, and Williams wrote 3e, they didn't want the sorcerer to overshadow the wizard. Thus, they made sure to keep on the conservative side with the sorcerer's power level. Six years of actual playing by millions of people, however, shows that they were probably too conservative, which is why we're seeing things like the Warmage and the ability to spontaneously add metamagic without increasing casting time.


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## Victim (May 17, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> The whole point of the rod is to give the feat to a caster who does not have the feat. The not increasing the spell level is a secondary (although potent) effect.




I don't believe you.  

The so called secondary effect determines the entire price structure of the rod.  I wouldn't say that the feat Quicken Spell is really that much better than Empower, and it's definitely not twice as good.  It shouldn't be too difficult to design something that grants the feat, only on so many spells each day, but it would be little like the existing metamagic rods.  To avoid the double spell slot cost for prepared casters, the item would probably have to be used at prep.  

It's worthwhile for a character with a given metamagic to take a rod of the same feat, because of the instant use and lack of increased spell level.  Even with the high price of metamagic rods.  There are very few other ways to break the normal limits on the max level spell a character can cast; the Candle of Invocation and Incense of Meditation are the only core abilities that come to mind.

Basically, the main effect of a metamagic rod is to act as bonus spell levels that can only be applied in a certain way.  The pricing mechanics seem to support this assertion.  

-------------------------------------------------

As nice as your example sounds, the caster is still using tons of high level slots for possibly little effect. If, by 15th level (min level for quickened II), people haven't figured out how to fight flying invisible guys, they deserve what's coming to them - those low level effects are still low level.  Instead of a quickened fly, the caster could have spent only a 5th level slot and started the battle with Overland Flight running.  You don't need to blow tons of resources on quicken if you can front load your actions with long duration spells.


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## KarinsDad (May 18, 2006)

Derren said:
			
		

> And a wizard can do exactly the same. Oh sure he has to prepare them quickened and the sorcerer can quicken them spontaneously but this is simply the advantage sorcerers have.
> 
> Or are you saying that the sorcerer is overpowered because he can spontaneoulsy cast spells and a wizard has to prepare them? Thats exactly the same situation. Quickening just increases the level. You would probably better off disallowing the sorcerer alltogether as you have such a big problem with a caster having the right spells for the right situation.




I said it several times in this thread, I will say it again:

Quicken spells are not a problem.
Spontaneous spells are not a problem.

Quicken Spontaneous spells are a real serious problem. It is the synergy of the two combined that makes it so potent.

Do you really think that WotC added the Quicken Spell rule:



> Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.




because they really thought that spontaneous metamagic should always be a full round action? They could have just as easily allowed it and said it was an exception to the full round rule. The likely reason they did not do this is because they knew how potent Spontaneous Quicken spells are.

Or does it make more sense that they repeatedly limited Spontaneous Quicken Spell to a set number of times per day because it is just too darn useful and powerful?

Consider the fact that the Quicken Spell Metamagic Rod is limited to 3 times per day and the rod is a lot more expensive than the other metamagic rods. Also, Sudden Quicken is not only limited to once per day, but it has a plethora of (6 specific) metamagic feats as prerequisites.

Too bad the author of the Variant Sorcerer did not actually read the other Spontaneous Quicken possibilities and realize what a boon he was giving to players in exchange for the low utility Familiar.

Except for not increasing the level of the spell, a weaker version of the once per day Sudden Quicken was given 3+ times with only a single metamagic feat prerequisite: Quicken Spell. That's nearly giving a high level end of chain feat 3+ times to a class with that class only having to qualify for one of the feats (instead of all 6). 3+ times per day has got to be nearly equal in power to Sudden Quickness, even if the spell level is 4 higher. The utility of being able to do it 3+ times per day makes up (or nearly makes up) in utility what the 4 extra levels does in spell levels.

On top of that, the "Can cast a spontaneous metamagic feat spell as a standard action" adds even more utility outside of just Spontaneous Quicken to the class.

The two of these combined are not very balanced when compared to a Familiar.


Quite frankly, just giving the Variant Sorcerer the "Can cast a spontaneous metamagic feat spell as a standard action" 3+Int times per day in exchange for the Familiar and not allowing Spontaneous Quicken would have been balanced.


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## KarinsDad (May 18, 2006)

Victim said:
			
		

> I don't believe you.
> 
> The so called secondary effect determines the entire price structure of the rod.  I wouldn't say that the feat Quicken Spell is really that much better than Empower, and it's definitely not twice as good.




You do not have to believe me, but it's true. I suspect most knowledgeable players would rather have Quicken than Empower.

In practice, anything that gives more actions per round to one side or the other wins battles. And if it does this as a magic item, WotC was going to up the ante with regard to cost (do not get me wrong, the "does not increase spell level" also increases the cost, but it is not the only factor).

Slow (and Heightened Slow), Black Tentacles, or any other spell that controls the battlefield and limits the number of actions for opponents (or gives more actions to allies like Haste) are huge spells. Fortunately for most DMs, most players do not realize it.

WotC realized this by making Summon Monster spells one round spells. Otherwise, it would have been the spell du jour for nearly all spell casters. Outnumber your opponents as quickly as possible. WotC knew this and limited these spells both in power and in casting time.

They also realized this by nerfing the 3E version of Haste.


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## Stalker0 (May 18, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Quicken Spontaneous spells are a real serious problem. It is the synergy of the two combined that makes it so potent.




I think what I and other posters are saying is that experience has shown this is in fact not the case. Many people have houseruled that quicken works just fine for sorcs, and I'm not hearing about any balance problems.

A lot of people feel the sorc doesn't stand up to the wizard, so while I think WOTC's initial caution was well deserved (the ability to quicken any spell any time does sound very scary) I think long years of routine playing has shown this caution is no longer needed.


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## Thanee (May 18, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Quicken Spontaneous spells are a real serious problem. It is the synergy of the two combined that makes it so potent.




Potent, definitely. Too strong, I don't really know, although I'm somewhat with you there. 

BTW, there is another WotC product, which allows spontaneous quicken in a similar, even less limited fashion (XPH).

The limiting factor for Metamagic Specialist seems quite alright to me. Unlimited access seems be a bit much, but 3+Int is a fair compromise probably.

Bye
Thanee


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## KarinsDad (May 18, 2006)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> A lot of people feel the sorc doesn't stand up to the wizard, so while I think WOTC's initial caution was well deserved (the ability to quicken any spell any time does sound very scary) I think long years of routine playing has shown this caution is no longer needed.




Has it? Do you really think that most games with PC Sorcerers actually have a house rule that Quicken Spell is allowed, or that most games with PC Sorcerers have the Sorcerer taking the 7 feat Sudden Quicken, or that most DMs in most games hand out expensive Rods of Quicken Metamagic to their Sorcerer PCs? I doubt "routine playing" has really illustrated anything of the sort since I suspect that Spontaneous Quicken is not something that routinely shows up in most games since it typically takes significant effort to acquire it.


I also suspect that many people who play Sorcerers do not play them anywhere near their potential. Sorcerers are more powerful than Wizards as is. The issue of why some people think Wizards are better is one of versatility (and number of feats), but not actual power, even with Wizards getting a higher level spell every other level.

1) Spontaneous Metamagic is one of the nicest features of the game, even without Spontaneous Quicken. I have seen a lot of Sorcerers played that did not take many or even any metamagic feats. It's gimping the Sorcerer to do that. Ask Thanee what is possible with a Sorcerer.

2) Wizards spend much of their gold adding spells to their books and possibly adding scrolls or other charged items, just to acquire the "spells per day" of a Sorcerer. To offset this, they have more feats. But, Sorcerers tend to have more magical items (because they have more gold) unless the Wizard focuses on Item Creation. 

3) Except at the lowest levels, I have never seen a well designed Sorcerer run out of good spells. I have seen Wizards run out of good spells. By the time the divine spell casters are mostly out of healing, the Sorcerer still has power to spare. The Wizard may or may not be capable of much more unless he digs into charged items. By about 6th level or so, I never see a Sorcerer out of spells at all. The same cannot be said of Wizards until about 10th level, at least in our games which sometimes (usually in "dungeon settings") have 4 or more significant combats in a single day.

4) With their number of spells, having the ability to Quicken or cast Instantaneous spells for a Sorcerer is not a drain at all, especially at medium to high levels.


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## Stalker0 (May 18, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Has it? Do you really think that most games with PC Sorcerers actually have a house rule that Quicken Spell is allowed, or that most games with PC Sorcerers have the Sorcerer taking the 7 feat Sudden Quicken, or that most DMs in most games hand out expensive Rods of Quicken Metamagic to their Sorcerer PCs?




I do not think the majority of games with sorcs use houserules that allow sorcs to quicken spells. What I'm saying is I believe the vast majority of people who have houseruled the sorc haven't had a problem with it. I've seen lots of threads on this board about people houseruling the sorc, including the quicken rule. I have seen very little feedback of people taking away the houserule because they felt it made the sorc too powerful.

I've played sorcs a few times, and I agree they can be powerful. Sponteanous metamagic is powerful. But I don't think spontaneous quicken is really that much more powerful. It still costs +4 spell levels.


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## Thanee (May 18, 2006)

My only actual gaming experience with the Sorcerer and Quicken Spell is my 17th-level Sorceress/Incantatrix, which has the Quicken Spell feat and the Instant Metamagic (2/day) ability.

Can't say, that this made her that much more powerful, really. More powerful for sure, and sometimes it is really handy, but it's not game-breakingly powerful. Even without Quicken there is still Twin Spell, which is not quite as good, but also somewhat similar, and there is _Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability_.

It would probably be a bit too much, if it didn't have a rather strict daily limit (3+Int is not that much), but with the limit, I think it's alright. And you give up the familiar, which can be _very_ useful (or have to pick the Obtain Familiar feat).

Bye
Thanee


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