# Daring Outlaw...A Too Powerful?



## satori01 (Apr 6, 2007)

So in Complete Scoundrel the book introduces some new feats that let a multi class character combine the levels of 2 specific class together to determine the effectiveness of a class ability.

Ok we have seen that before, but the powerup given by the Feats are almost no brainers.  The Monk/Pally or Pally/Bard type feats just help mitigate,(and often times not well), the wonkiness of multi classing certain classes.

Daring Outlaw lets a Swashbuckler/Rogue combine both class levels together in terms of Sneak Attack Damage/Grace/ and Reflex save.
Mmmm OK, I think I could do that.  If you were playing a Swashbuckler why not take the feat and 3 levels of Rogue.  Evasion + Sneak Attack versus losing out on the 20 level ability to do 2 points of Con dmg.  Con Dmg is big...but Sneak Attack across the life of a character is better.

The book has plenty of those feats:

Ascetic Stalker: add Monk/Ninja levels together to determine Unarmed Strike Damage, Ki uses for Ninja Class, and what the Unarmed strike effects.  Perfect for a dip into monk, to get Improved Grapple & Flurry.
Now your Ninja can Invisibly Flurry Shurikens for Sudden Strike and Grapple like a pro to get even more Sudden Strike... and you effectively loss nothing on the Ninja side.

Master Spellthief: Combine Spellthief/ Any Arcane Spell casting class to determine Caster Level & what level spells you can steal.  1 feat and one dip into Spellthief gives you +1d6 Sneak Attack and the ability to steal spells.  If I was playing a Beguiler, I would do it in a heart beat, the synergy is too good, plus it helps get you into Arcane Trickster and the like if you so want.

Swift Hunter: Scout & Ranger levels stack for Skirmish bonus and Rangers Favourite Enemy.  Again why not take a feat and 1 level of either class to get a nice class ability.  Scout and Ranger abilities overlap so much, ultimately you wind up about the same anyway.

Clearly the feats were intended to get little used classes more play, and I would love to use the feats as a player, but some of these are just too attractive.


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## Rhun (Apr 6, 2007)

I don't have the book in question, but I believe there was a thread based on Daring Outlaw not too long ago. The general consensus, if I remember correctly, was that the feat was good, but not overpowered.


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## hong (Apr 6, 2007)

Well, is 17 levels of swashbuckler really that great, even with the +10d6 sneak attack?


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 6, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Well, is 17 levels of swashbuckler really that great, even with the +10d6 sneak attack?




I think that would make it barely acceptable.

Now, 17 levels of rogue with three of swashbuckler would be much more pleasant.

Brad


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## Enforcer (Apr 6, 2007)

Yeah, Swashbuckler is still only a 3-level class, even with this feat.

A Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Rogue 16 on the other hand, would be molto awesome with Daring Outlaw. In fact I just did a character just like that in case I ever get to play rather than DM one of these days.


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## satori01 (Apr 7, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Well, is 17 levels of swashbuckler really that great, even with the +10d6 sneak attack?




D10 HD, Full BAB, Int Modifier added to damage, & SA to boot.  Not bad at all.  Int Mod + Str Mod + full SA is what gets me, a very, very potent combo.  Pick up proficiency w/ the Elven Courtblade, and Power Attack w/ Str + Int.

The Ranger/Scout feat is the one that gets me big time.  Again why would anyone that wanted to play a Ranger or a Scout not take this feat and the other class?


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## AnonymousOne (Apr 7, 2007)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> Yeah, Swashbuckler is still only a 3-level class, even with this feat.
> 
> A Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Rogue 16 on the other hand, would be molto awesome with Daring Outlaw. In fact I just did a character just like that in case I ever get to play rather than DM one of these days.



I would really like to see this build.  And as I'm not very familiar with the optimizing thing, I'd love to know what makes that level progression so nice.


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## wayne62682 (Apr 7, 2007)

Personally I find Daring Outlaw to be a great feat and a step in the right direction.  I applaud these new feats that help balance multi-classing characters out since they get screwed by the rules already.  I'd love to see the more generic ones become Core in the future, if for no other reason than I don't have to search for them and compile a list of them if I run a Core game.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 7, 2007)

They need feats that help un-gimp spellcasters that multiclass, something that helps with the loss of caster level.  Practiced Spellcaster is a step in the right direction, but I am thinking something like:



> Arcane Fighter
> *Prereq*: Able to cast 2nd level arcane spells, 2nd level Fighter or higher
> *Benefit*: Gain +1 level of exisiting arcane spellcasting class for every 2 levels of Fighter you have; Your levels in each arcane spellcasting class that you have count as Fighter levels when qualifying for feats which require specific Fighter levels (ie Weapon Specialization).




Ok, not perfect, I am sure there are holes or exploits to be found in the above, but I hope you get the gist   This would encourage the Fighter/Mage builds...


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## zoroaster100 (Apr 7, 2007)

I don't generally like prestige classes, at least not as mere bandaids for the shortfalls of multiclassing.  So I love the idea of feats which help fix the multi-classing problems.


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## Enforcer (Apr 7, 2007)

AnonymousOne said:
			
		

> I would really like to see this build.  And as I'm not very familiar with the optimizing thing, I'd love to know what makes that level progression so nice.



See the build (not 100% on it yet) in the stat block below.

[sblock]
Human Rogue 20/Swashbuckler 4

Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10 (32 pts., all stat bumps to Dex)

1st (Rogue 1): Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding; Dodge, Mobility

2nd (Swashbuckler 1): Weapon Finesse

3rd (Swashbuckler 2): Grace +1; Quick Draw

4th (Swashbuckler 3): Insightful Strike

5th (Fighter 1): Combat Expertise

6th (Rogue 2): Evasion, Dodge Bonus +1; Improved Feint

7th (Rogue 3): Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1

8th (Rogue 4): Uncanny Dodge

9th (Rogue 5): Sneak Attack +4d6; Daring Outlaw

10th (Rogue 6): Trap Sense +2, Sneak Attack +5d6

11th (Rogue 7): Dodge Bonus +2

12th (Rogue 8): Improved Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack +6d6, Grace +2; Improved Critical (dagger)

13th (Rogue 9): Trap Sense +3

14th (Rogue 10): Special Ability (Skill Mastery), Sneak Attack +7d6

15th (Rogue 11): Telling Blow

16th (Rogue 12): Trap Sense +4, Sneak Attack +8d6, Dodge Bonus +3

17th (Rogue 13: Special Ability (Defensive Roll)

18th (Rogue 14): Sneak Attack +9d6; Melee Evasion

19th (Rogue 15): Trap Sense +5

20th (Rogue 16): Special Ability (Elusive Target), Sneak Attack +10d6

Basically his shtick is a surprise knife to the kidney. He'll have the skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel to do that (also one reason for Quick Draw--the other being multiple thrown daggers). Improved Feint and Telling Blow are both alternative ways for him to do Sneak Attack damage. He also ends up with a +16 BAB, meaning four attacks if he wants them.

What I'm thinking about doing alternatively, is to change out some feats for the TWF chain.
[/sblock]


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## Particle_Man (Apr 8, 2007)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> Yeah, Swashbuckler is still only a 3-level class, even with this feat.
> 
> A Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Rogue 16 on the other hand, would be molto awesome with Daring Outlaw. In fact I just did a character just like that in case I ever get to play rather than DM one of these days.




I assume the Fighter level is there to get the BAB to 16 before you hit epic, thus ensuring that you get 4 iterative attacks per round (before adding in bells and whistles)?


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## Cheiromancer (Apr 8, 2007)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> I assume the Fighter level is there to get the BAB to 16 before you hit epic, thus ensuring that you get 4 iterative attacks per round (before adding in bells and whistles)?



I suppose the OP doesn't impose multiclassing restrictions.  Otherwise there is an XP penalty.  Two levels of fighter would get rid of that (and another bonus feat!), but then you don't get 10d6 sneak attack at 20th level.  The skills will really start to hurt, too.  

But I don't know how many games get to 20th level.  It's probably wisest to make the build strong at lower levels.


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## Enforcer (Apr 8, 2007)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I suppose the OP doesn't impose multiclassing restrictions.  Otherwise there is an XP penalty.  Two levels of fighter would get rid of that (and another bonus feat!), but then you don't get 10d6 sneak attack at 20th level.  The skills will really start to hurt, too.
> 
> But I don't know how many games get to 20th level.  It's probably wisest to make the build strong at lower levels.




Doh! It's true you get multiclass penalties, but BAB +16 is achieved by switching Fighter 1 for Swashbuckler 4. Shame to lose a bonus feat for a dead level though...

And to Particle_Man--four levels of full BAB classes are there precisely to get the +16 BAB. It's also nice to take them at low levels so you can get a higher attack bonus and your first iterative attack sooner than a pure Rogue build would let you.


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## monboesen (Apr 8, 2007)

Seems to me the feat is a much better deal for a character with many swashbuckler levels than one with many rogue levels.


The presented build gets a +3 dodge bonus, a +2 grace bonus to reflex saves, +1 bonus to base reflex save and +2d6 sneak attack.


A reverse build (Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16) gets +8d6 sneak attack, +1 dodge bonus, a +1 grace bonus to reflex saves and a +3 bonus to base reflex save.


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## Torx (Apr 8, 2007)

In my campaign right now, one of the players is playing a Changeling Rogue 5/Cleric 1/Swashbuckler 3 (I waived the XP penalty cuz cleric is for RP reasons and actually has hindered the character a bit).

When CS came out, it was right when he was leveling up to 6th (Rog 4/Clr 1) and he had to make the decision.  He knew he would have to take at least two levels of swashbuckler before he would be able to take the feat and have them stack.  That meant that his sneak stagnated at 2d6 until he was 9th level.  His character had always had a high Int since he was the group's skill-monkey, so the swashbuckler made a lot of sense for him.  6th and 7th levels were tough for his character as he lagged way behind in power level in every aspect save skills.

Since 8th and subsequently 9th level, he has been an excellent contributor in combat.  Having his sneak go back up to 4d6 as well as having the bonus damage from Int, Dex-wielding rapier-ness has made it so that he can enter combat and deal an average of 20 damage on a sneak.  That is a little more than half of what the fighter does on any given attack.

My view is that (for a RogX/Swsh3 at least) it's a tough feat to take.  Since you have to be Rog2/Swsh2 before you qualify for the feat, it seriously hamper development when the character is played through.  Most rogues will benefit from the free Weapon Finesse, but won't have too high a Intelligence, since they get 8 skill points/level anyway.  Grace is almost a non-factor.  My player has said the largest benefit for him was the d10 HD.  He was lucky and had an 8 or above for each of the three levels, and that has made him confident enough to enter melee.

I think the feat is fine where it's at.  Those two sub-optimal levels make it tough to get into, and rogues & swashbucklers get few enough feats as it is.  It's made my player's skill-monkey into someone who can contribute in a big fight if need be.  And that's made him happy and has done naught to upset any other members of the group (quite the contrary).


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## Bagpuss (Apr 8, 2007)

I wonder how a Daring Warrior & Daring Outlaw would stack up with Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 13

That's effectively 17 levels of Swashbuckler (BAB +19, +3 Dodge), 16 Rogue (+8d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion) and 17 Fighter (9 feats, Weapon Spec, Greater WF, GWS).

Probably be better to go Rogue 4, Fighter 4 and Swashbuckler 12.


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## AnonymousOne (Apr 8, 2007)

monboesen said:
			
		

> A reverse build (Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16) gets +8d6 sneak attack, +1 dodge bonus, a +1 grace bonus to reflex saves and a +3 bonus to base reflex save.




True, but if you want a skill character then you'll need all those skillpoints that he Rogue Gives you.  Ultimately, with the forst build you don't get to take advantage of the Swash's Last Dodge and Grace Bonuses, but you do get to take advantage of The Rogue Abilities (i.e. The Special abilities or Feats, the skill point jump, Things like Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, etc)
Attached is my build, I'm sure that there is at least one feat most DMs wouldn't allow(Mongoose Publishing's 'Improved Sneak Attack') , but oh well.


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## Cheiromancer (Apr 8, 2007)

What would you use, AnonymousOne, in place of Improved Sneak Attack and Quickstrike?  Well, I suppose it is one less feat if you replace the fighter level with a swashbuckler level (for BAB and hit points).  Or maybe you could take a flaw.

Are there any skill tricks you would pick up?


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## AnonymousOne (Apr 8, 2007)

That was a quick build.  If I had to go Swash 4/Rogue 16 I'd drop both Quickstrike and Improved Sneak, I'd probably pick up Quickdraw (add a nice Throwing Dagger aspect to the the character, Maybe spring for returning daggers...) OR Deft Strike (Study to ignore Armor, Shield, and Natural Armor bonuses to AC)

 I'd pick up some skill tricks:
Acrobatic Backstab, Group Fake out, Timely Misdirection, Never Outnumbered, Spot the Weak Point

I might pick up Corner Perch if running the Multi-Dagger idea.

The nice thing about those skill tricks is that some of them overlap with some of the feats like Spot the Weak Point and Deft Strike But that allows you to delay the feat until later and still get some of the benefits and once you have the feat, you can dump it and spend them on ranks in other skills or tricks...

i'm not too well versed in the flaws, so I wouldn't know what to pick up in that.


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## DM_Matt (Apr 8, 2007)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> I wonder how a Daring Warrior & Daring Outlaw would stack up with Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 13
> 
> That's effectively 17 levels of Swashbuckler (BAB +19, +3 Dodge), 16 Rogue (+8d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion) and 17 Fighter (9 feats, Weapon Spec, Greater WF, GWS).
> 
> Probably be better to go Rogue 4, Fighter 4 and Swashbuckler 12.




Daring Warrior does not give you fighter bonus feats.  It only gives you the ability to qualify for fighter-only feats.  The author intended it to give those feats, but in the end its not that way.  A feat should never grant you several more feats.  Its like wishing for more wishes.


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## Slaved (Apr 8, 2007)

In this case it is more like using wish to gain a few limited wishes, or an effect that would take several limited wishes to accomplish.


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## DM_Matt (Apr 9, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> In this case it is more like using wish to gain a few limited wishes, or an effect that would take several limited wishes to accomplish.




You can't do that either.


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## Slaved (Apr 9, 2007)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> You can't do that either.




You cannot get an effect with a wish that would take several castings of limited wish?

I disagree.

An easy example would be a mass spell versus its non mass version.


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## DM_Matt (Apr 9, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> You cannot get an effect with a wish that would take several castings of limited wish?
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> An easy example would be a mass spell versus its non mass version.




Very, very specialized case and only because the target-adding is done through different-named spells rather than metamagic.  Besides, the difference between wish and limited wish is far more significant than feats and fighter bonus feats for a character that fights.  

In many cases, its not a hinderance at all.  It is only a limitation if he would have wanted as many non-fighter feats as he has feats from levels, had he not taken this feat. He would have to want so many non-fighter feats that he would have filled every single one of his slots with them and could not spare the one feat to buy a ton of fighter feats.  How many Swashbuckler/Fighters can say that?


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## Slaved (Apr 9, 2007)

So now you are saying that it is not impossible. Progress!   

With the current case in mind though the character is spending a more versitile feat and multiclassing to gain the benefits of multiple feats from a smaller list. If sneak attack was gained through feats, and that the rogue at every level got a bonus sneak attack feat, we could make a similar direct comparison with trading one feat for several.

If we assume that fighter feats are class abilities, which seems like a safe assumption, then what is the difference between spending a general feat to get one set of class abilities versus another? As long as you limit it properly, which might be tricky but there are many feat examples that stack two classes levels in some way, it should be fine.

Being forced to take 4 levels of fighter plus other restrictions is a pretty big cost already.


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## DM_Matt (Apr 9, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> So now you are saying that it is not impossible. Progress!
> 
> With the current case in mind though the character is spending a more versitile feat and multiclassing to gain the benefits of multiple feats from a smaller list. If sneak attack was gained through feats, and that the rogue at every level got a bonus sneak attack feat, we could make a similar direct comparison with trading one feat for several.
> 
> ...




This is the inverse of the Foucaultian Lyricist (or whatver its real name is...this is what i choose to call it).  Instead of requiring a rediculously bad setup to finally catch up with some rediculously nice stuff, it requires you do do some  sensable stuff in order to get a big power boost thats amazing for anyone with the kind of character.  For a swordsman character, fighter levels, especially exactly four of them, is just not a major "cost," especially compared to the insane benefits he eventually gets.  Its not like he's a theurge taking non-stacking spellcasting clssses for several elvels.  While the feat gives you a number of slightly limited-selection feats, it is only not worth it for an enormously bizarre fighting character who needs so many non-fighter feats that its better to not take this one that gives them a whole bunch of fighter feats.  And that doesnt even incorporate the extra swashbuckler abilities.

Its not that every fighting character shouild take this feat, but that in almost every case it is crazy over the top good to do a Swash3/Fighter4/SwashX or whatever if this is the type of character you are going for.  

Daring Outlaw: Its Part of a Complete Munchkin With A Rapier!


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