# Is the RPG hobby dying? [RPG Blog Carnival]



## theactionpoint (Jul 14, 2010)

The question posed in this month's RPG  Blog Carnival, hosted by Mad Brew Labs, bears some serious  consideration by our community. 

Here's my answer. 
Turning Hard-Bitten  Soldiers Into Dice-Rolling Fiends!

Enjoy. Discuss. As a community, we're really good at that.


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## Hussar (Jul 14, 2010)

Excellent question.

I think that more companies should take a page from the Expeditions program that WOTC is using.  Paizo has got it's Pathfinder living campaign (I'm sorry, I'm blanking on the name right now) and that's a fantastic step in the right direction.  Other RPG companies need to do this.

Small con's and meet-ups.  This is a more grass-roots sort of thing that local gaming communities can organize.  Find a space - community center, whatever - and run small, one day conventions or meet-ups.  Get organized with local gaming stores and have a few door prizes, that sort of thing.  Do entry level one shots of a variety of games.  Not just RPG's, but board games and cards.  Be as inclusive of the community as possible.

Evangalize the hobby.  Don't be afraid to tell people what you did Sunday night.  Don't do it in a negative way - always, always be positive.  THIS is what's great about what I did.  THIS is why I'm excited.  I had such a fantastic time.  Hey, you want to come too?

Every game needs quick start rules.  Always.  You should have a five or ten page (tops) pdf that people can print out and hand off for new gamers for any game on the market.  

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Jul 14, 2010)

*How would you like to see the hobby grow?*
Through gameplay and the activities around it.  GMs running games for full tables.  People telling their friends.  People blogging or writing about their games, sharing ideas, self-publishing, creating fanzines, et cetera.

*How can the community or publishers help grow the hobby?*
By focusing on game-play.  The hobby of RPGs is the foundation that supports the business of RPGs.  Not the other way around.

*What are you doing to advance the hobby?*
Playing the games I enjoy.  Introducing them to new players (I recently started running an AD&D game for my 15-year-old nephew and a group of his buddies from school.) Writing about the game.  Submitting articles to fanzines.  Buying stuff I like.
*What is hindering the growth of the hobby?*
For me, personally, it's lack of time.  RPGs require a time investment, especially on the part of the GM.  However, that's just the way it is.  If RPGs have value, are fun, and people like them, then the hobby will expand or shrink to whatever level it "should" be at, based on demand.
*Is technology a key component of growing the hobby?*
It's made it a hell of a lot easier, by making communication easier.  My main OD&D group is made up of guys who came together through message boards and said "hey, we're all on the same page, gaming-wise, and we're all pretty close.  Let's start meeting face-to-face and get a game going."  It's also easier for anyone in the hobby to publish and distribute, or even just to put up a campaign log or a blog.

*Is the hobby fine the way it is?*
Yes.
*What are some pitfalls in trying to grow the hobby?*
Falling into the trap of thinking the hobby *must* grow or *should* grow (or *must not* shrink).  Also falling into the trap of thinking the hobby lives or dies based on the success or failure of the biggest company or the biggest brand.


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## mkill (Jul 14, 2010)

As a gamer, there is one basic anti-pattern to avoid: Don't be a jerk.

* When in a group or at a convention, be nice to people, shower, socialize, listen when other people talk at the table, don't try to steal the spotlight, don't argue with the DM, if you criticize something be positive.

* Remember that gaming is one hobby and gamers are one community. Just because someone plays "the wrong edition" or doesn't like your favorite product doesn't mean he is an enemy. Also, gamers are gamers regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, or number of tentacles.

* Tolerate if someone is _not_ interested. Don't bore people with stories of your 15th level Paladin if they obviously don't care.


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## BrokeAndDrive (Jul 14, 2010)

mkill said:
			
		

> Tolerate if someone is _not_ interested. Don't bore people with stories of your 15th level Paladin if they obviously don't care.



I wish this rule of yours could be shoved in everyone's face.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to endure a friend raving about Magic the Gathering, or how much someone else loves Kurt Cobain, or a random stranger going on about how much he loves football, because to tell them "Sorry, not interested." would _make *me* the antisocial bastard_.  Because you're not at fault for boring everyone to tears about your high score in Halo (I honestly cannot be bothered to go learn whether or not Halo is any different than Space Invaders or Double Dragon).

On-Topic: The game industry is dying... huh.  Where have I heard this before.  When WotC bought TSR? When 3e was released?  When 4e was released?

Sounds exactly the same as [president] did [scandal] therefore America and freedom will die very soon.  Y2K... anyone remember that?  Me neither.  What about the LHC?  Nope, doesn't ring a bell.  Interesting how the extinction of humanity at the hands of swine flu was wholly averted by *everyone suddenly not caring*.  2012 _oh em gee mayan calandurz!_  *peers three years into the future* Can you believe that everyone freaked out over that 2012 crap? "What, Hanna Montana going into rehab?" Heh...


Relax.  _Chill_.  Gaming isn't any more in its death throes than the music industry dying with the advent of CD burning, the movie industry dying because of the VHS, and book-writing becoming obsolete thanks to the printing press.  This alarmist junk is older than dirt, and history will repeat itself until the end of time because *everyone loves a good doomsday fantasy*.

How else can you explain the popularity of grimdark or the horror genre?


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## amerigoV (Jul 14, 2010)

BrokeAndDrive said:


> Gaming isn't any more in its death throes than the music industry dying with the advent of CD burning, the movie industry dying because of the VHS, and book-writing becoming obsolete thanks to the printing press.




What I find interesting is how these various industries are trying to cope with the rapid pace of technology. The music industry is not dead, but their have been many casualties as more music is distributed electronically. Newpapers struggle with drops in subscriptions but no one is willing to pay for on-line access to their news. Why have cable when I can stream the shows I like and use Netflix for the movies?

The gaming industry seems to be on a fence of do they engage the electronic world or just use it as a form of awareness of their product. I am torn on this myself as a long-time gamer. I use Maptools and Skype in my groups to keep wayward gamers connected. On the other hand, there is nothing quite like having everyone at the table just playing without all the gizmos. Wizards has experimented with more electronic tools (DDI) with interesting results. The DDI tools seem good enough that they could liberalize the GSL without feeling like they are losing sales (whats the point of a 3rd party making "yet another fighter" if you will not have access to it in DDI?).

The most important thing is to keep the pipeline open to new, younger gamers. My generation (I am 41) has supported gaming for a long time - from teens begging for money for a gaming book to spending the disposable of an adult. 4e seems to be a push to attract younger gamers* (more CCG and anime  features vs. older editions). Although some may grumble, if it attracts more to the hobby, then it is good.

* Pure piece of irony. I went to a D&D Meetup for the first time. There was a 3.5 game, a 4e game, and a Traveler game. The 4e game pretty much had the 20-somethings and above. The 3.5 game had a few older players and a bunch of kids (10-14 year olds) - and from the screams they were having a blast. Traveler, of course, had no players - as from anything I have ever seen, people only roll up PCs and never actually play Traveler.


So, I do not think the industry is dying, but I am not really sure what it will evolve into.


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## Pig Champion (Jul 14, 2010)

mkill said:


> As a gamer, there is one basic anti-pattern to avoid: Don't be a jerk.




This pretty much sums it up. New gamers could care less about age old arguments like edition wars or badwrongfun and it's this kind of thing that drives them away in the end.


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## Leatherhead (Jul 14, 2010)

When did "geek" become synonymous with "nerd?"

I've just recently noticed this trend and it is bugging me.


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## Hand of Evil (Jul 14, 2010)

Yes and no - If you look at sales, it looks like it but sales everywhere are down, bad times and they have been for years.  Yet, if you look at figures for GenCon, you see figures that are constant or some growth.  

What is happening here?  We have a hobby that has a core cost that can be spread out over years.  Once you buy the books, you do not need much more to play.  We create our own adventures.  We do not need to buy new stuff.  

So, what do you see as active players?


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## Hand of Evil (Jul 14, 2010)

Leatherhead said:


> When did "geek" become synonymous with "nerd?"
> 
> I've just recently noticed this trend and it is bugging me.




It was a sad, rainy day, with the feeling that something had changed, something was off, think it was August 2007, I was there...It was an event like when pulp was split into fantasy and sci-fi...just happened over a cup of coffee and no one seemed to notice.  They tried to add dork also but felt that was just too much at the time, it was quite and took place in the back room of game store, between the comic section and the gaming area.  Path were cross and worlds collided.


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 14, 2010)

Leatherhead said:


> When did "geek" become synonymous with "nerd?"
> 
> I've just recently noticed this trend and it is bugging me.





> The definition of geek has changed considerably over time, and there is no longer a definitive meaning. The terms nerd, gimp, dweeb, dork, and spod have similar meanings as geek, but many choose to identify different connotations amongst these terms, although the differences are disputed.



Wikipedia article - Geek

I always thought geeks were worse than nerds, cause of the bighting heads off chickens thing. To me a nerd is brainy and probably not very physically active. A geek is into the same things as a nerd but is an unsocialized freak. He might be brainy but it's hard to spot amidst all the facial tics and shrieking.


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## Insight (Jul 14, 2010)

If you have to remind someone that they need to _shower_, they probably won't do it.


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## pawsplay (Jul 14, 2010)

Leatherhead said:


> When did "geek" become synonymous with "nerd?"
> 
> I've just recently noticed this trend and it is bugging me.




Nerd originally meant "loser."

"Geek" originally meant the guy who bites the heads off chickens at a carnival, in other words, a visibly freaky and uninhibited person that disturbs and fascinates the ordinary person. 

Neither one had much to do with playing MUDs, D&D, or LARPs until fairly recently.


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## Pbartender (Jul 14, 2010)

_(an arrow whizzes through the air and embeds itself in Role Playing Games)_

*Role Playing Games:* _(his dying words)_ Message for you, sir. _(he falls) _

*Internet Forums:* Role Playing Games! _(spying the arrow)_ A note!  "To whomever finds this note. Help. I am being held prisoner by my dungeon master who wishes me to play World of Warcraft against my will! Please, please, please, please rescue me. I am in the basement of my mother's house."  A quest! A gamer in distress! Oh, Role Playing Games, noble Role Playing Games, you shall not have died in vain! _(starts to draw sword)_

*Role Playing Games:* I'm not quite dead yet, sir!

*Internet Forums:* _(a bit put off)_ Well... you shall not have been... mortally wounded in vain! _(draws sword)_

*Role Playing Games:* I think I could pull through, sir.

*Internet Forums:* _(a bit more put off)_ Role Playing Games, maybe you'd better stay here and rest a bit, eh?

*Role Playing Games:* Oh, I think I could come with you, sir... 

*Internet Forums:* No, no, Role Playing Games, brave soul, you shall stay here, and I... I shall undertake a perilous quest to win freedom for a gamer and eternal fame for myself. Farewell, Role Playing Games! _(runs off, leaving Role Playing Games looking after him perplexedly)_


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## Bagpuss (Jul 14, 2010)

Philotomy Jurament said:


> *Is technology a key component of growing the hobby?*
> It's made it a hell of a lot easier, by making communication easier.  My main OD&D group is made up of guys who came together through message boards and said "hey, we're all on the same page, gaming-wise, and we're all pretty close.  Let's start meeting face-to-face and get a game going."




That's not growing the hobby that's just treading water. Bringing existing gamers together stops losses, doesn't really grow the hobby though.


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## IronWolf (Jul 14, 2010)

Hussar said:


> I think that more companies should take a page from the Expeditions program that WOTC is using.  Paizo has got it's Pathfinder living campaign (I'm sorry, I'm blanking on the name right now) and that's a fantastic step in the right direction.  Other RPG companies need to do this.




Pathfinder Society Organized Play.  It is a great thing and allows people to get involved with games at cons, online play or local gaming stores without committing to a weekly campaign.

I would like to see Paizo do something similar to WotC here though and lower the bar just a bit more with something similar to the Encounters sessions.  Short, two-hour-ish drop in games with pre-gens to allow one to get rolling very quickly and with minimal time investment.



Philotomy Jurament said:


> *What are some pitfalls in trying to grow the hobby?*
> Falling into the trap of thinking the hobby *must* grow or *should* grow (or *must not* shrink).  Also falling into the trap of thinking the hobby lives or dies based on the success or failure of the biggest company or the biggest brand.




So true.  I think the trap falls into the *must* grow mindset.  Growth is good, but growth with no bounds can be harmful as well.


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## ExploderWizard (Jul 14, 2010)

The hobby will not die if there are people engaged in it and teaching others. The industry that supports rpgs might experience huge ups and downs based on popularity trends and economic factors but overall the hobby itself will survive. 

One might think that improved quality in technology based entertainment might be the end of pen and paper games but I don't see that ever happening. The desire for interactive entertainment with real people will be around as long as there are still people around. 

The roleplaying hobby is resilient and the fans have enough energy to keep things going even without a supporting industry. Thanks to the internet and the ease of desktop publishing, there would continue to be a wealth of new roleplaying material always available. Look at some of the fansites and all of the hard work put into material for no monetary gain by die hard fans who just want to share their creations with others. 

I like having shiny new products to buy as much as everyone else, but if the worst did come to pass and the rpg industry couldn't sustain itself I still wouldn't worry about the survival of the hobby. 

Dave and Gary gave us a great deal more than a simple game. They provided the spark that lit the fire that can never be put out.


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## DaveMage (Jul 14, 2010)

Based on the (almost rediculous) large volume of various RPG materials available, I'd say the hobby is doing just fine, thank you very much.

Individual companies may see things differently, but as a consumer, it's a very rich environment, IMO.


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## Festivus (Jul 14, 2010)

Holy cats, where to begin...

Bringing in not only younger players (e.g. 12 and ups), but also bring back older (lapsed?) players.  I think products like Red Box will get the latter, but I think also gaming companies could take a page from Apple.  Give the product away to libraries, schools, summer camp programs, etc.  There is tons of these camps every summer, and it could even be as simple as take any excess products from your worldwide games days and distribute it to those camps.

What are you doing to advance the hobby?  I run a monthly meetup, I DM several times per month, and that is with a wife and kids at home.  I make sure that my games are fun, that is most important.  I make sure our meetup has at least one table per time slot that is aimed at bringing new players into the game.  IF everyone who ran a game store event would do this we would see some growth.  IF your FLGS doesn't have a regularly scheduled game day and they have space, why not suggest organizing a meetup for your store.  For very little money, the game store could see a lot of increased traffic (if done right)

Is technology a key component of growing the hobby?  No, but I do see technology as an enabler for those who may have been intimidated before e.g. character creation with the Character Builder has been a boon for 4E I feel, it's never been easier to make a character for any edition of the game.

Is the hobby fine the way it is?  I think it is aging out.  I mentioned before in another thread that the vast majority of players at my meetup are 21-40 age range.  Those guys need to get married, have kids and teach their kids to play.

What are some pitfalls in trying to grow the hobby?  The edition wars are not helping to grow the hobby.  Agreeing to disagree and move on would probably be a good thing, particularly given it's been two years since 4E came out.  Most have done this by now, but there are some holdouts, anytime WoTC posts on Facebook it's not long before someone says something related to the edition wars.


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## MadBrewLabs (Jul 14, 2010)

First, I'd like to thank The Action Point for firing up this thread and everyone else for discussing it.

I don't think the hobby is dying, or will ever completely go away. The possibility of the death of the hobby wasn't even under consideration when I wrote the article that spawned this thread.

It's more of a "Where would you like the hobby to go from here?" and "How can we get there?" or even "Do we really care where it goes?"

Here's my original list of questions:


How would you like to see the hobby grow?
How can the community or publishers help grow the hobby?
What are you doing to advance the hobby?
What is hindering the growth of the hobby?
Is technology a key component of growing the hobby?
Is the hobby fine the way it is?
What are some pitfalls in trying to grow the hobby?

I'm actually happy with the hobby as it is now, but I'm always interested in discussing how it could be improved. Growing the hobby doesn't necessarily mean obtaining tons of new players to me.

For me, just making things more accessible and developing a friendly image/atmosphere is what I would like to see. Whittle away at that social stigma that seems to be attached with the hobby.

Anyways, that my initial thoughts, I'll post a link back to this thread at the end of the month when I do my wrap-up of the carnival.

Thanks!


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## ExploderWizard (Jul 14, 2010)

Festivus said:


> Is technology a key component of growing the hobby? No, but I do see technology as an enabler for those who may have been intimidated before e.g. character creation with the Character Builder has been a boon for 4E I feel, it's never been easier to make a character for any edition of the game.




Really? The CB is a handy tool but character creation is still a lot more involved than it once was. The staggering number of options (especially for a brand new player) can lead to "analysis paralysis" or decisions made in ignorance that might be discovered as poor once play begins. 

I think the new red box builds are a step towards reducing this factor for inexperienced players. 

New builds or not, it cannot compare to the ease of rolling up an old basic D&D fighter.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 14, 2010)

Overall I am pretty satisfied with the state of the hobby.  I think there are great opportunities to continue to integrate technology into TTRPGs and I do think they are important if the industry wants to remain relevant with younger gamers.  

Something interesting: the place where my kids go for swordfighting and fencing classes recently ran a D&D game night.  They had tables set up for the younger kids and seperate tables for older kids and adults.  I wasn't able to go that evening, but they said the response was so good they are going to make it monthly event and add additional tables. 

I have seen quite a few of the kids carrying around 4e books when I bring my to class.


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## Wik (Jul 14, 2010)

I love when this question pops up, every six months or so.  It always makes me realize that I honestly don't care if RPGs live or die.

RPGs are not a cult, despite what some fundamental christians in the 1980s fervently believed - ironically, with cult-like fervor.  There is no "eternal reward" for those who spread the message, nor should there be.  

If I'm not playing RPGs in twenty years, well... odds are, I'll have found something else more enjoyable.  And I'm cool with that.  If RPGs follow the route of wargames... meh.  Because if I want to game, I'll be able to find someone to game with - whether the books are easy to find or not.  

We don't need to proselytize.  We just need to play our individual games, have fun, and leave it at that.      

My two cents, at least.


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## DaveMage (Jul 14, 2010)

Wik said:


> If I'm not playing RPGs in twenty years, well... odds are, I'll have found something else more enjoyable.  And I'm cool with that.  If RPGs follow the route of wargames... meh.  Because if I want to game, I'll be able to find someone to game with - whether the books are easy to find or not.
> 
> We don't need to proselytize.  We just need to play our individual games, have fun, and leave it at that.




Agreed!


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## Umbran (Jul 14, 2010)

Wik said:


> If I'm not playing RPGs in twenty years, well... odds are, I'll have found something else more enjoyable.  And I'm cool with that.  If RPGs follow the route of wargames... meh.  Because if I want to game, I'll be able to find someone to game with - whether the books are easy to find or not.




There is a realm between the cultist and "I don't give a damn".  It's called being a fan.

I've been playing RPGs for decades now.  And I havent' stuck with just one.  I've had strings of years where my major game has changed - D&D, Marvel Superheroes, Shadowrun, back to D&D, White Wolf, back to D&D, Deadlands...

If the hobby goes the way of wargames, when it is time for me to play some other game, it may be very difficult for me to find a good game to play.  And, despite your assertion, finding good people to play with can also become difficult even today, and that'll only get more difficult if the games drop in popularity.  It isn't like the world'll be lost, but gosh darn it, I might not have as much fun.  What's so wrong with putting in a little effort to raise the chances of having fun in the future?

So, it isn't like a cultist, but more like someone who really enjoys a particular TV show, and doesn't want to see it go off the air.


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## DaveMage (Jul 14, 2010)

Umbran said:


> If the hobby goes the way of wargames, when it is time for me to play some other game, it may be very difficult for me to find a good game to play.  And, despite your assertion, finding good people to play with can also become difficult even today, and that'll only get more difficult if the games drop in popularity.  It isn't like the world'll be lost, but gosh darn it, I might not have as much fun.  What's so wrong with putting in a little effort to raise the chances of having fun in the future?




This is kind of a chicken-and-egg thing, though, isn't it?

If the hobby goes the way of wargames/drops in populartity, it's because interest has already waned.  Interest wanes for many reasons, but in this case, it would likely be that some other similar form of entertainment - perhaps providing a superior experience - has taken its place.

I think the best way to keep a hobby alive is simply to participate in it.


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## Wik (Jul 14, 2010)

Umbran said:


> There is a realm between the cultist and "I don't give a damn".  It's called being a fan.
> 
> I've been playing RPGs for decades now.  And I havent' stuck with just one.  I've had strings of years where my major game has changed - D&D, Marvel Superheroes, Shadowrun, back to D&D, White Wolf, back to D&D, Deadlands...
> 
> ...




Ha.  I was only making the "Cult" comparison for comedic sake.  But when these threads pop up, I'm always reminded of some fringe religions that go out of their way to "convert" others - and it's not behaviour I see as being necessary.

Davemage has hit the nail square on the head - if RPGs are going the route of wargames, that means they're no longer fulfilling a meaningful place in the public's needs.  

I'm not saying that you should never attempt to introduce the game to new people;  I've done it quite a few times, myself.  What I am saying is that you should introduce people to the game that you want to play with, for the sake of playign the game... not for the sake of "growth of the hobby".

And I don't know about you, but I've never had a problem finding people to play with.  Sometimes they've heard of D&D, sometimes they have not.  Chalk it up to differing experiences, but I have absolutely no worries there.


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## MortonStromgal (Jul 14, 2010)

Well if the amount of PMs I have been getting about my WFRP 3 videos on youtube are any indication. There are more new groups out there forming up who have never played a pnp rpg before than I would have thought.


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## UngainlyTitan (Jul 14, 2010)

DaveMage said:


> This is kind of a chicken-and-egg thing, though, isn't it?
> 
> If the hobby goes the way of wargames/drops in populartity, it's because interest has already waned.  Interest wanes for many reasons, but in this case, it would likely be that some other similar form of entertainment - perhaps providing a superior experience - has taken its place.
> 
> I think the best way to keep a hobby alive is simply to participate in it.



I dispute that interest faded and that caused the death of wargames, wargames are still played but the type of game is different and designed to be played in a shorter timeframe. That said i still want to play World in Flames but I do not have the time.

Now I could see a situatio where in the near future technology could enable to play WiF again with out taking up 10 sq. meters of my house with maps a counters for 2 months.


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## nedjer (Jul 15, 2010)

ardoughter said:


> I dispute that interest faded and that caused the death of wargames, wargames are still played but the type of game is different and designed to be played in a shorter timeframe.




Yeah, a lot of them tired of arithmetic, got Agricola and Catan, and never came back.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 15, 2010)

> So true. I think the trap falls into the *must* grow mindset. Growth is good, but growth with no bounds can be harmful as well.




Welcome to capitalism, where the only successful business models look a little bit like a tumor, but with money. 

Part of me wonders if _sustainability_ can be as strong a business concept as it is an ecological concept, but given the typical MBA's frantic pursuit of cancerous wealth, I doubt they have the language.

Anyway, the hobby isn't dying. Maybe it will someday. I kind of hope not, but if it does, it will be because there isn't a demand.

I think there is a demand, still, for this type of thing. But RPGs need to undergo a generational change to embrace it, rather than an incremental change. Which is harder to do.


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## Hussar (Jul 15, 2010)

I honestly don't understand the idea that "The hobby is just fine in its current size."  Well, ok, I do kinda understand - people have stable groups and don't really care otherwise.  Fair enough I suppose.

But, the benefits of massive growth, in my mind anyway, outweight any downsides.  Current estimates of gamers is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 5 million (might be more or less, I'm picking 5 cos it's an easy number.)  Imagine for a second that we lived in a world where that jumped up to 50 million regular gamers worldwide.  Increase the current gamer population by ten times.

Where's the downside?  Gaming becomes a totally socially acceptable past time, same as baseball or Euchre.  Instead of one company and a bunch of little ones supporting your hobby, you get hundreds of companies all competing for your dollar.

Imagine opening up an RPG book with gaming fiction written by Stephen King, including a CD with a sountrack by Santana and artwork by fifteen different top of the line artists and an editing staff of dozens.

All you have to do is look at the difference in video games to see what going truly mainstream does.  Compare any video game of the 80's to one of today.  Never mind the differences in technology, but also the writing, voice acting from leading actors, you name it.

I mean, Halo gets Greg Bear to write fiction for it.  We're talking one of the top talents in SF writing game fiction.

Is most of the stuff produced going to be crap?  Oh of course.  Sturgeon's Law always applies.  But, the fact that there's a thousand times more stuff out there to take advantage of means that that remaining 10% is going to be freaking GOLD.

So, at the end of the day, I have no idea why people would want gaming to stay where it is.  I want the gaming population to be 50% female.  I want gaming to grow out of the suburbs and into every area.  I want to turn on the TV and see Magic the Gathering tournaments being played.  (Ok, that I wouldn't watch, but, I'd still LOVE to see it)


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 15, 2010)

> Imagine for a second that we lived in a world where that jumped up to 50 million regular gamers worldwide. Increase the current gamer population by ten times.




Crazy Awesome!

But...I have serious doubts as to whether there are 50 million people in the world that have the particular mental mindset required to sit in a room and pretend to be an elf for four hours.

Since that is really the foundational experience of D&D, I do wonder exactly how big that could get.

Still, I support grabbing *every single person* who might be inclined to do this. 

There might only be 5 million people who do it, though. 

This is all rampant conjecture, of course, I don't have any hard-and-fast numbers to back it up, but I can't imagine the potential audience for D&D is really very big at all. 

It would be AWESOME if I was wrong.


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## Hussar (Jul 15, 2010)

Oh, totally, totally agree.  It might be that we've basically hit the wall and the hobby just can't really grow any more.  This is it and it's as good as it gets.  

But, man, I'd LOVE to be wrong.


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## Dire Bare (Jul 15, 2010)

Hussar said:


> I want to turn on the TV and see Magic the Gathering tournaments being played.  (Ok, that I wouldn't watch, but, I'd still LOVE to see it)




Actually, this has already happened.  For a short while at least, Magic tournaments were aired on ESPN.  I saw it!  But, it was as exciting as watching golf on tv, IMO.  And I love Magic!

While your wish for 10x the gaming population probably will never happen (as you knew, of course), I do think the hobby has the potential to grow much larger and become more accepted by mainstream than it is today, which means more money for WotC and more gaming for us.  There would be downsides, but the upsides would certainly outweigh them.  I also don't really grok the grognard mindset of, "Harumph!  The hobby was just fine until WotC started messing with it!" (insert TSR for WotC also, of course).  IMO, it's kinda selfish.  Not picking on anybody in this thread, in fact I haven't read the entire thread (I know, I hate that too).


----------



## MerricB (Jul 15, 2010)

Umbran said:


> There is a realm between the cultist and "I don't give a damn".  It's called being a fan.




*looks up from sacrificing a chicken*

Oh, wait? There's a realm between? Ahem. Let me put this knife away. Sorry about the blood.



> If the hobby goes the way of wargames...




*looks to status at left*
Oh dear, I'm involved in *another* dead hobby? Why does no-one tell me these things?

Cheers!


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## UngainlyTitan (Jul 15, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Welcome to capitalism, where the only successful business models look a little bit like a tumor, but with money.
> 
> Part of me wonders if _sustainability_ can be as strong a business concept as it is an ecological concept, but given the typical MBA's frantic pursuit of cancerous wealth, I doubt they have the language.
> 
> ...



Sustainability is a matter of accounting. Once governments decide how it should be handled in the accountancy rules then it gets slotted in to the business model. This requires quite a few things of course like poltical will and international consensus and stuff like that.
Capitalism is about making legal money and that is defined by accountancy frameworks.


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## UngainlyTitan (Jul 15, 2010)

Hussar said:


> Oh, totally, totally agree.  It might be that we've basically hit the wall and the hobby just can't really grow any more.  This is it and it's as good as it gets.
> 
> But, man, I'd LOVE to be wrong.



I would love if your were wrong also but I think that it simply is too hard as currently constituted. To be a player one is expected to know a lot of rules and this puts people off. 
Betrayal at House on the Hill has elements that remind me of rpgs and the old choose your own adventures but seems to be popular with people that do not do rpgs or more complex boardgames.
RPG require a fair bit of system mastery and I think will not expand much while that requirement remains.


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## Umbran (Jul 15, 2010)

Hussar said:


> All you have to do is look at the difference in video games to see what going truly mainstream does.  Compare any video game of the 80's to one of today.  Never mind the differences in technology, but also the writing, voice acting from leading actors, you name it.




Higher production values, sure.  But homogenization of gameplay and style seems to come with it.


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 15, 2010)

Hussar said:


> Where's the downside?



A lot of gamers don't want Joe Sixpack playing. Keep the hoi polloi out of my elite gaming club! It's only for people who can speak elvish.

Check out the thread about Lovecraft. That's elitism right there. You have to have read Lovecraft/Vance/Tolkien/Howard to properly appreciate D&D. Get out of here with your anime and your videogames.

Perhaps there's a fear that the game would be 'dumbed down' if it became more popular. Maybe you wouldn't have to read 1000 pages of rules and create your own secondary world in order to run it. That would be terrible.


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## Desdichado (Jul 15, 2010)

That's kind of a bait and switch thread title, since the RPG Carnival guy says right up front that he isn't talking about the RPG hobby dying and doesn't think that it is, and that's not even the topic anyway.

That said, I guess I don't really care about "the hobby."  I don't feel any sense of responsibility to "the hobby" and I don't consider myself an ambassador of the hobby or anything like that either.

Gaming is something that I do with my friends, and then I also enjoy talking about it on the internet.  That's it.  Full stop.

The hobby doesn't owe me anything, and I don't owe it anything.  I don't care about growing it, except in the sense that I want to have a personal group of my own that I enjoy gaming with (I already do, but in case I move or something.  You never know.)


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## Filcher (Jul 16, 2010)

I think that the internet has lowered the "survivability" bar for niche hobbies, so much so that our old perception of how many participants are necessary to sustain a hobby is skewed. Levels of interest that would previously render a hobby unsustainable are the new robust. 

To wit, without a gaming group, I've spent an hour or more thinking about gaming by virtue of being on Enworld. Sometimes that causes me to spend money on the same. Whereas 20 years ago I'd only think about gaming if I was planning the next session or actually playing. 

I have no doubt that wargamming (to say nothing of roleplaying) will survive well past my lifetime, simply by virtue of the ease in which geographically separated fans can easily hang out over the net. There might be only 500 people on earth interested in playing "pre-Alexandrian naval games set in the Crimean Sea", but these days they'll be able to find each other and sustain one another's interest. Some garage publisher will be able to sell 500 copies of a PDF to them every 2 months or so. And 500 PDF copies isn't so shabby (or so I am told).


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## Hussar (Jul 16, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Higher production values, sure.  But homogenization of gameplay and style seems to come with it.




Oh sure.  I can see that.  Mainstream being what it is.  But, even with mainstream, you still get fringe.  While everyone else might listen to Brittany Spears, you can still listen to Abney Park.  

Personally, I think the biggest shot in the arm to the gaming population has to come from attracting female gamers.  I have no idea how to do that, but, you could double the gaming population overnight if you could equalize the sexes.


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## Umbran (Jul 16, 2010)

Hussar said:


> Oh sure.  I can see that.  Mainstream being what it is.  But, even with mainstream, you still get fringe.  While everyone else might listen to Brittany Spears, you can still listen to Abney Park.




But I'm already getting games I like.  Growth for the sake of growth is not a virtue.  Bigger is not necessarily better.

One of my favorite gaming conventions has historically been small.  For several years it has been driven by "bigger is better", and the con has grown dramatically.  We will have more games, more people...

But it also means we've outgrown our old hotel, and moved to a new venue.  We have lost a fantastic lounge and con suite area, and the possibility of economically providing meals to the con-goers.  

So, we are now bigger, but providing fewer amenities and cool space for out-of-game social interaction.  

Morals of the story:  Growth has consequences.  Be careful what you wish for.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 16, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> A lot of gamers don't want Joe Sixpack playing. Keep the hoi polloi out of my elite gaming club! It's only for people who can speak elvish.
> 
> Check out the thread about Lovecraft. That's elitism right there. You have to have read Lovecraft/Vance/Tolkien/Howard to properly appreciate D&D. Get out of here with your anime and your videogames.
> 
> Perhaps there's a fear that the game would be 'dumbed down' if it became more popular. Maybe you wouldn't have to read 1000 pages of rules and create your own secondary world in order to run it. That would be terrible.




That's a serious (and unfair) misreading IMHO.

JRRT uses a lot of Shakespeare in LotR; if you recognize the references you will get more out of LotR than if you do not.

Western literature uses a lot of allusions to Shakespeare and the Bible; if you understand these allusions, you will get more out of the works that use them.

D&D uses a lot of allusions to early Weird Fiction and S&S; if you understand these allusions, you will get more out of D&D.

If one makes the argument that a version of D&D makes use of anime tropes, it follows that a person understanding anime tropes will get more out of that version of D&D.

I would call this extremely obvious, and it has nothing to do with elitism.  



RC


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## Wicht (Jul 16, 2010)

Wait?  

Back up a minute.  What is this about Wargames and RPGs following the same route?  Did something happen to wargames in the few weeks since I was at Origins? This is horrible. My twelve year old son spent good money on a wraith army for Song of Blades and Heroes at Origins and we were going to paint them here soon. I'm not quite sure how to break this news to him.


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## Wicht (Jul 16, 2010)

My kids have been preparing themselves for a gnome adventure. My oldest daughter (age 11) has been prepping to run it, using Paizo's _Into the Haunted Forest_ and the other three (14, 12, 10) have been excitedly making gnome characters using the _Gnomes of Golarion _as their inspiration. They were going to start last night but I twisted their arms and made them play our Legacy of Fire campaign instead (_with a supper break that involved watching MST3K: Warrior of the Lost World_) while their mother was away for a 'Mom's Night Out' with our homeschooling group.

So this morning when I got out of bed about 7:30 a.m., I notice they are all awake,  in the living room, white board on the floor, dice scattered around character sheets, and they are playing through the first encounter. Warmed my heart to see them having fun. 

Of course, when their mother saw them, she grounded them from playing for the rest of the morning because they hadn't done their chores first.  

Anyway, just thought I would share that. It seemed apropos somehow.


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## Umbran (Jul 16, 2010)

Wicht said:


> Wait?
> 
> Back up a minute.  What is this about Wargames and RPGs following the same route?  Did something happen to wargames in the few weeks since I was at Origins?




No.  It happened since the 1970s and 1980s.  There was a time when wargames were far more popular than they are today.


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## UngainlyTitan (Jul 16, 2010)

Umbran said:


> No.  It happened since the 1970s and 1980s.  There was a time when wargames were far more popular than they are today.



Do you have numbers for this? and are you just talking about the board (hex) wargame or wargames in general (i.e. including minis)?
I have seen some analysis (possibly at BoardgameGeek or possibly Grognard.com that the board wargame market has recovered a good bit since they started concentrating on designs that can be played in 10 hours or less (mostly in the 3 to 5 hour bracket). I'm not a regular on those sites, the stuff was send on to me.
Also from what I can tell from friends in the minis scene that seems to have trundled on through the eighties largely unaffected by the collapse of SPI, Avalon Hill, GDW et. al.
If you include the Sci-Fi and fantasy minis that group may even have expanded since Games Workshop seems to have been pretty successful and have even expanded in to historical rulessets also.


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## Umbran (Jul 16, 2010)

ardoughter said:


> Do you have numbers for this?




Me?  No.  I'm going off what I've been told by my wargamer and shop-owner friends.  Talking about wargames broadly - both chit-based and mini-based together.

If you prefer, change it to being about where wargames went, for a while - a land where there weren't too many options, and finding folks to play was difficult for many years.


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## UngainlyTitan (Jul 16, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Me?  No.  I'm going off what I've been told by my wargamer and shop-owner friends.  Talking about wargames broadly - both chit-based and mini-based together.
> 
> If you prefer, change it to being about where wargames went, for a while - a land where there weren't too many options, and finding folks to play was difficult for many years.



Fair enough, I was pretty much a chit based wargame but I do think that the games went in a direction that was unsustainable, World in Flames 100 hours play time as compared to say Europe Engulfed 12 hours or so.
WiF was considered playable (played several games of it) as distinct to say Europa which was more something you would collect and drool over


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## MichaelSomething (Jul 18, 2010)

Hussar said:


> Personally, I think the biggest shot in the arm to the gaming population has to come from attracting female gamers.  I have no idea how to do that, but, you could double the gaming population overnight if you could equalize the sexes.




Twilight, the RPG.

And your welcome.


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## Hussar (Jul 19, 2010)

MichaelSomething said:


> Twilight, the RPG.
> 
> And your welcome.




And, really, why not?  If it brings in millions of gamers into the hobby, I couldn't care less what it is.  It will not affect my group one whit.  But, it will mean that I can talk about gaming without worrying who's walking around.  It will mean that in addition to having one mid sized company and a bunch of small companies catering to my tiny niche hobby, I'd have several large companies solely devoted to catering to what I want.

Fantastic.  

I totally disagree with Umbran in that there are significant downsides to growing the hobby by leaps and bounds.  Does that mean that your small, cozy community might change?  Sure.  Does it mean that it has to go away?  Only if you let it.

Here's a thought.  Vampire managed to bring in lots of female gamers.  Anecdotaly it appears that they came in through LARP and Minds Eye Theater.  Ok, so, howzabout a Minds Eye Theater and Camarilla (or however you spell that) type organization for a Fantasy LARP.  

Not Boffer Larping, but, straight up LARP.  Given the huge number of women I see at the average Ren Faire, I'd said that this sort of thing might have some serious legs.

So, let's fast forward a couple of years.  Our Fantasy LARP takes off hugely.  The local games stores start catering to the cosplay/costuming crowds to make money off of this new demographic.  Going into a games store, you start seeing sewing machines and costuming demo's.

Does that mean that your game suddenly vanishes?  I don't think so.  It just means that the market expands and you get new kinds of cross pollination between the various niche's.  

Great AFAIC.


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## Beginning of the End (Jul 19, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> Yes and no - If you look at sales, it looks like it but sales everywhere are down, bad times and they have been for years.




The problem is that there's no meaningful data.

(1) The former metrics for measuring total market size have been rendered obsolete. They measure sales through hobby stores, and reputedly large portions of the industry no longer go through hobby stores.

(2) Individual publishers reporting lower per-book sales mean nothing in terms of total industry size. There are simply more publishers producing more material today than there was 10 or 20 or 30 years ago. Even if everyone is seeing lower sales, that doesn't necessarily mean that the market is shrinking.

(3) What might be a meaningful indicator of industry health would be total  D&D sales over time. But only WotC has that, and they're not sharing. And because of the market division created by OGL and 4th Edition, I'm not even sure that a raw number there would be particularly informative.

In terms of growing the hobby (which would be good regardless of what it's current health is), the solution is pretty easy at a conceptual level:

(1) Produce games accessible to new players ("easy rules" are a trap);
(2) Featuring methods of play which encourage pick-up play

In other words, produce an RPG that's as easy for newbies to start playing at Monopoly. And doesn't require any greater commitment than an evening with a bunch of your friends.

D&D Encounters is a step in the right direction, but not quite. The serialized format carries with it an expectation that you'll be back next week for the next installment. What I'm looking for is a format that's accessible to newbies for casual, one-shot play. If the game's any fun, the deeper, long-term commitment will take care of itself.

Honestly, the old megadungeon espoused in 1974's D&D manuals fits the bill. Not much else has done so since then.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 19, 2010)

> Vampire managed to bring in lots of female gamers.




Theoretically, the tiefling warlock shadar-kai stuff plays to the Darker And Edgier swooning sparkles eternal love demo.

Of course, this dude...




...compared to this dude...



...is going to get fewer hormonal teens interested. 

Not that the WotC art committee shouldn't be sticking brooding badasses with potential hearts of gold into their books wherever possible. It would balance out the chainmail bikini cheesecake nicely.


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## Umbran (Jul 19, 2010)

Hussar said:


> I totally disagree with Umbran in that there are significant downsides to growing the hobby by leaps and bounds.  Does that mean that your small, cozy community might change?  Sure.  Does it mean that it has to go away?  Only if you let it.




Well, I was reacting to someone suggesting explosive growth - like by an order of magnitude, 10x.  Explosive growth does not happen to anything without repercussions.

For example, the cozy community thing - my own personal gaming group wouldn't have to change much, true.  However, if there were suddenly 10 times more people posting to EN World, yes, as a "cozy community", it would cease to be.  The moderation form we've got, that maintains teh current feel of the site, simply will not scale to a forum with that kind of traffic, especially not in short order. 




> Here's a thought.  Vampire managed to bring in lots of female gamers.




Yes, but as I understand it (and, of course, our understanding is anecdotal), that growth really wasn't massive.  Didn't even double the size of the hobby.  Not an issue, in that sense.


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 19, 2010)

Beginning of the End said:


> Honestly, the old megadungeon espoused in 1974's D&D manuals fits the bill. Not much else has done so since then.



OD&D recommends prepping six dungeon levels (as a minimum) before play begins. Much more than Gary started with, incidentally. He only had one level of Greyhawk ready before he set Ernie and Elise loose on it. I think 4e's 'points of light' approach is better. Only prep what you need for one adventure at a time.



> The most extensive requirement is time. The campaign referee will have to have sufficient time to meet the demands of his players, he will have to devote a number of hours to laying out the maps of his "dungeons" and upper terrain before the affair begins.






> First, the referee must draw out a minimum of half a dozen maps of the levels of his "underworld", people them with monsters of various horrid aspect, distribute treasures accordingly, and note the location of the latter two on keys, each corresponding to the appropriate level.






> Before it is possible to conduct a campaign of adventures in the mazey dungeons, it is necessary for the referee to sit down with pencil in hand and draw these labyrinths on graph paper. Unquestionably this will require a great deal of time and effort and imagination.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 19, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> OD&D recommends prepping six dungeon levels (as a minimum) before play begins. Much more than Gary started with, incidentally. He only had one level of Greyhawk ready before he set Ernie and Elise loose on it. I think 4e's 'points of light' approach is better. Only prep what you need for one adventure at a time.




Yes.  His playtest demonstrated that having more ready was better than having less.  That is rather the point behind playtesting.

And prepping only what you need for one adventure at a time results in having only one possible adventure.  Some folks might consider that a cost, rather than a benefit.


RC


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## Ulrick (Jul 19, 2010)

Somebody should make an RPG titled "RPGs: The End Times Are Here" set in a grim near future where the RPG industry is backrupt because of emerging virtual reality/holodeck technology. Characters are all grognards and must figure out what to do with their time as players leave campaign after campaign to get lost in VR. Not even boardgames are immune to this tread. 

What will they do? Band together for one last ditch effort at a D&D campaign? Or will they start their own gaming company to fight the rising tide?


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## ggroy (Jul 19, 2010)

Ulrick said:


> Somebody should make an RPG titled "RPGs: The End Times Are Here" set in a grim near future where the RPG industry is backrupt because of emerging virtual reality/holodeck technology. Characters are all grognards and must figure out what to do with their time as players leave campaign after campaign to get lost in VR. Not even boardgames are immune to this tread.
> 
> What will they do? Band together for one last ditch effort at a D&D campaign? Or will they start their own gaming company to fight the rising tide?




Sounds very similar in spirit to the video game xBill.  

xBill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 19, 2010)

Ulrick said:


> Somebody should make an RPG titled "RPGs: The End Times Are Here" set in a grim near future where the RPG industry is backrupt because of emerging virtual reality/holodeck technology. Characters are all grognards and must figure out what to do with their time as players leave campaign after campaign to get lost in VR. Not even boardgames are immune to this tread.
> 
> What will they do? Band together for one last ditch effort at a D&D campaign? Or will they start their own gaming company to fight the rising tide?



Rise up from the steam tunnels and fight!  Destroy the server farms enslaving the minds of the young!  Replace the textbooks with core rulebooks!  Replace Mondays (they're pretty useless anyway) with RoleDay where everyone must play the part of somebody they are not in real life.  Rise up and together we can save the world of gaming!


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## Beginning of the End (Jul 19, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> OD&D recommends prepping six dungeon levels (as a minimum) before play begins.




Sure. But once you have that in hand you can bring in new players on-the-fly and run dozens of sessions with little or no additional prep.

My point is that you need to get away from the concept of putting together a group of 5-6 players who are expected to all get together on a regular basis for a dozen or two dozen or an indefinite number of sessions.

There's nothing wrong with those types of campaigns existing. But that level of commitment is obviously off-putting to new players.

I'm speaking from immediate experience here. I've been playing in a campaign run by a guy using the _Caverns of Thracia_ as a megadungeon. There's been a persistent continuity across a couple dozen sessions, but because each session is a separate excursion into the dungeon there's no need for the same group of people to re-assemble at every session.

Juggling schedules? Not a problem at all. The DM posts a date on Facebook, invites a dozen-plus people, and whoever can show up for that session shows up and we play.

Inviting new players? Incredibly easy. They're not making a commitment beyond a single night of playing games with friends; and we're not left hanging if they decide it's not for them. We've introduced lots of new players to RPGs since we've started playing, and quite a few of them have stuck around for second helpings.

DM's prep time? Apparently he read the module in about 3 hours and started running it. Minimal or no prep between sessions. Certainly designing a complex like the _Caverns of Thracia_ would take some time, but that's why a good introductory game would include a ready-to-play scenario.

Imagine if _Monopoly_ expected or required you to get together a group of 6 players who would need to meet regularly on a weekly or bi-weekly schedule for 20+ sessions. I can virtually guarantee you that _Monopoly_ would be a much less popular game.

I'm looking around to find similar easy-to-organize, easy-to-invite formats for other games. _Shadowrun_ looks tempting: Although it would require a lot more prep (since it lacks OD&D's procedural methods of content renewal), if the player body were all understood to belong to a single organization of 'runners that got contracts which just happened to be fulfilled by whoever showed up that evening to play, you'd get some of the same social network effects.


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## Umbran (Jul 20, 2010)

Beginning of the End said:


> I'm looking around to find similar easy-to-organize, easy-to-invite formats for other games. _Shadowrun_ looks tempting: Although it would require a lot more prep (since it lacks OD&D's procedural methods of content renewal), if the player body were all understood to belong to a single organization of 'runners that got contracts which just happened to be fulfilled by whoever showed up that evening to play, you'd get some of the same social network effects.




Shadowrun is dirt easy for this - you don't need them to be in an organization.  "Fixer" contacts, in large part, play the role of temp recruiters.  The corp needs a team to run the shadows - they call fixers, fixers find bodies.

The one problem you'll have in Shadowrun is that it is not reasonable for companies to like changing the team mid-stream.  Certain kinds of intrigue plots common to good shadowruns usually take a couple of sessions to play through, and they can be a challenge if you're going to notably change the group composition from one session to another.


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## eyebeams (Jul 28, 2010)

I assume we have now done the following in this thread:

1) Taken the idea of a hobby in decline to its most exaggerated, strawmanish extent so that we can claim that it will never die, even though there is a set of outcomes greater than 0 gamers and 0 games that is still awful.

2) Something-something THERE'S NO INDUSTRY HOBBIE SUMPREM!!!111!!

3) Made promotional statements for some clique in the hobby under a thin pretense of addressing the issue.

Let's get past this. First, tabletop RPGs as we know them will never go completely extinct, but may reach a minimum level that makes it extremely difficult for hobbyists to find each other or maintain a creative culture. 

Second, the tabletop RPG hobby is permeated with commercialism and consumerist values at all levels. Hobbyists have internalized the language and values of social marketing to a stronger degree than many, many other communities. This is *because* the merchants are small scale. Elements like IP licensing, which were previously ignored in favour of fair use, can be seen in the smallest scale of fan endeavours. 

Third, if any particular clique was capable of reversing trends in the hobby it would have happened. The "indie" community has had a decade to establish a breakout hit, and has largely found its successes in games that emulate much of the commercial and play systems of "mainstream" games. The part of the OSR that cares is selling a solution that would have worked even earlier, since  that brand of D&D is decades old.

To sum up: We are not an immortal grassroots counterculture already possessed of the will to reignite our hobby, but bereft of the sense to pay attention to some brilliant scheme.

We *are* a branch of a greater roleplaying hobby that extends into computer games and self-started online social networks, that can use tools and lessons from them to experiment, and hovers above an important threshold, below which many enthusiasts may lose what they value. We *do* have complex relationships with an industry so that it's difficult to say where the noncommercial ends and the commercial begins. 

We should stop seeking comfort in familiar patter, and before we dismiss new ideas out of hand, we should seriously examine how they might support or threaten the things we love about tabletop RPGs. I think there's good stuff in this thread about how people use technologies to get things done. That's an excellent start. We need more on technology to organize games and make play smoother, and I have to admit that I for one have dropped the ball on talking about it in the now -- I love to speculate.

But I think the biggest threat comes from ourselves. Beyond particular behaviours, I've noticed one awful thing: The default assumption about RPG play is that without expert advice, a special theory or even a particular product, it's a failure mode. To put it more simply: Lots of people now talk like the basic way of playing RPGs is badly, and not amatuer theatre bad (which is fun), but find out your sitting next to a Nazi on the bus bad (which isn't!).

We should start assuming that gaming leads to good times. People like that. We should start thinking of setbacks with more cheerfulness, and of play as something robust enough to survive differences of opinions or various social and technical blunders. 

People like good times, even when it comes from screwing up.


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## UniversalMonster (Jul 28, 2010)

Agreeing with everything eyebeams just said there. 

I guess as a side note, I game now more than I ever did in my entire life, possibly because I've figured out that online fandom has so little to do with gaming.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 28, 2010)

Decline =/= dying.

Lots of things suffer losses and returns of public interest.  3e brought interest in D&D back.  5e may do it for the "Official D&D" again.  Or not.  (Shrug)

Supporting WotC =/= supporting the RPG hobby.

Interest in "Official D&D" may be waning, but interest in other games is increasing, AFAICT, IME, and IMHO.  Morrus has said that EN World traffic is increasing.  I have no trouble whatsoever finding players.  YMMV.

Would it be nice if D&D was doing really well?  Sure it would.  But if interest in D&D is ebbing, then the market has spoken.  Go back to what worked.  If interest in D&D is stable, or increasing, then what's the problem?



RC


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## TarionzCousin (Jul 28, 2010)

Wik said:


> RPGs are not a cult....






MerricB said:


> *looks up from sacrificing a chicken*



But... I want to be in a cult. What am I going to do with these dark robes and weird squiggly dagger now?


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## DragonLancer (Jul 28, 2010)

I don't think the hobby is dying but it is suffering. It is suffering from a lack of new blood. Gone are the days where roleplaying would find a new audience among high school and university students. Now, they are more interested in online gaming whether it be XBox Live or an MMORPG like WoW rather than sitting at a table in a social situation.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 28, 2010)

DragonLancer said:


> I don't think the hobby is dying but it is suffering. It is suffering from a lack of new blood. Gone are the days where roleplaying would find a new audience among high school and university students. Now, they are more interested in online gaming whether it be XBox Live or an MMORPG like WoW rather than sitting at a table in a social situation.




The majority of the RCFG playtesters are university students, and includes one high school student.  All have played 3e, some have played 4e.  That sector is still stronger than you might think.


RC


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## Hussar (Jul 28, 2010)

DragonLancer said:


> I don't think the hobby is dying but it is suffering. It is suffering from a lack of new blood. Gone are the days where roleplaying would find a new audience among high school and university students. Now, they are more interested in online gaming whether it be XBox Live or an MMORPG like WoW rather than sitting at a table in a social situation.




Yeah, I gotta go with RC on this one.  Of the gamers that I see in Maptool or OpenRPG, the overwhelming majority are late teens, early 20's.

My current lineup is actually surprisingly old with three (and possibly four, I'm not sure how old one is) over thirty and two under 25.  My Sunday group was all early 20's and high school.  My group that went through the World's Largest Dungeon was all under 25 - of the twenty or so people who sat at the table - other than me.

I realize this is anecdotal and all, but, I've seen a LOT of gamers over the past five or six years with online games, and they've all been hovering around the 17-25 range.

I should dig out the last print Dragon I've got where Paizo polled its readership.  I know that in about 2006 or so (Not quite sure of the exact date) their readership was about 22 years old.  Which was actually younger from when they did a similar poll a few years previously.  

I'm really not convinced that there is this huge greying of the gaming population.  What I do believe, in my gut anyway, is that those of us who started back in the 80's, and have stuck with the hobby, are fairly numerous and very visible because of the numbers.

In other words, it's not that the average age of gamers is going up, it's just that the high end of the bell curve has a lot more people in it.


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## DragonLancer (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm not refering to the ages of players, just that these days with online gaming being so much easier (and by online gaming I refer to MMORPG's and XBox's...etc) that there is a probable decline in new blood picking up a tabletop roleplaying game.


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## ggroy (Jul 28, 2010)

Hussar said:


> In other words, it's not that the average age of gamers is going up, it's just that the high end of the bell curve has a lot more people in it.




Is it even still a bell curve today?  

For that matter, was it even a bell curve to being with?


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## Hussar (Jul 28, 2010)

DragonLancer said:


> I'm not refering to the ages of players, just that these days with online gaming being so much easier (and by online gaming I refer to MMORPG's and XBox's...etc) that there is a probable decline in new blood picking up a tabletop roleplaying game.




But, again, we haven't really seen that.  What we have seen is either a fairly stable population, or perhaps even a bit of growth in the gaming population over the past ten or fifteen years.  3e brought in a lot of new players, but, even then, the numbers have not apparently dropped significantly.

Those new players have to be coming from somewhere.  And I don't think there's been a huge shift in the age of new players.  They're still high school and college age apparently.

Granted this is all speculative.  But, if there was a decline in new blood starting gaming, why has the gaming population continued to grow?  It's not like MMO's are new.  Everquest has been around for what, ten years now?  WOW's been out since late '04, it's coming up on six years.  

This is more than long enough to see a decline in gamer population.

I wonder if people come into the hobby by way of MMO's.  I could see players being disillusioned with the limitations of MMO's and hearing through the community about the TTRPG things.  

I would think that enough time has passed since MMO's came out that we could say that it hasn't had an enormous impact on the numbers of gamers.


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## thedungeondelver (Jul 28, 2010)

> How would you like to see the hobby grow?



I'd like to see more brick and mortar shops dedicated to tabletop gaming, brick and mortar shops that embrace the fact that while they cannot compete with a guy working out of his garage, offering 30% discounts on books, they _can_ offer so much more - a clean, well-lit, friendly gaming environment, for example.  There are very few places like that any more, and I'd like to see the hobby grow in that direction.



> How can the community or publishers help grow the hobby?



We need more independent publications - and I don't just mean niche fanzines - out there in people's hands.  More stuff that hearkens back to *THE SPACE GAMER* and what *WHITE DWARF* used to be.



> What are you doing to advance the hobby?



I have plans, but they're niche at best.  A 'zine, a gameday/con, taking my massive dwarven forge *OD&D/AD&D* extravaganza on the road (to local hobby shops).



> What is hindering the growth of the hobby?



Corporate infighting, the idea that THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!  It needs to stop.  We should all hang together or we will all surely hang separately.



> Is technology a key component of growing the hobby?



This is too vague a question.  "Technology" is a lot of things.  The dice, paper, and pencils themselves are "technology".  If the question means "iPads and DDI mandatory at the table" then GOOD GOD NO.  There are things that can be done to streamline and unify; *THE DRAGON* and *THE SPACE GAMER* both featured type-in computer programs nearly thirty years ago.  There's room for technology.  The key is to not rely on it to the point that you're racing to the bottom (see "pitfalls" below)



> Is the hobby fine the way it is?



Probably; or at the very worst it's not as bad as some would suggest.  There's a danger of having a Cassandra Complex about the whole thing but _everything_ is cyclical.  Everything.  Books, movies, all hobbies.  RPGs are still an order of magnitude bigger than they were in say 1977.  It's easy to forget that when you see the mountain of dross created by the d20 licensing system, and witness the number of game shops closed (in no small part by that very mountain) between 2000 and now.



> What are some pitfalls in trying to grow the hobby?



Becoming convinced that you _must_ compete with computer games or computer experiences to be successful.  That you must ignore the "greying market" and _only_ try to grab the attention of (and I apologize for the get-off-my-lawn seeming term, but there we are) kids to be successful.  Remember, D&D was an adult-aimed hobby game.  Really, until *BASIC D&D* (not Holmes' *D&D*!) hit, can we even consider that *D&D* was aimed at anyone _but_ adults, the *AVALON HILL* game players, the sandbox wargamers...

Trying to convince someone to play a pen and paper RPG versus buying a new video card, *STARCRAFT II* or wasting a day on *TWITTER* by trying to make your pen and paper game like, or interface with, those things is a death spiral, in aviation terms.  When an inexperienced pilot enters IFR conditions, and begins to heel over, they ignore their instruments and go with what they "feel".  They see the altitude drop, so they pull back on the stick.  G-forces push them back in the seat, convincing them that they are going _up_ against gravity rather than being subjected to ever increasing centrifugal forces.  They ignore all of their instruments, except the altimeter, which is winding down.  They pull _harder_ on the stick, feel _more_ Gee, and the altimeter winds down faster still.  They ignore their instruments, and pull harder on the stick until at last they hit the ground or the water.

This is what the hobby _must not do_.  Don't enter that death spiral of trying to keep altitude by applying pressure on computer games and applications!  This hobby _came_ from the table top!  Unless the leaders want to just _give up_ and say "We're only making a computer game called *D&D* (or *EXALTED* or *ATOMIC HIGHWAY* or *CASTLES & CRUSADES* etc. ad infinitum)," don't do it at all.

Stay true to what makes the games great: adventure participation, facetime, friendship, imagination.

Abandon those things and you've lost the plot, and then the hobby _is_ doomed.


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## nedjer (Jul 28, 2010)

Question is, if companies are determined to go down one route (e.g. make themselves as like MMORPGs as possible), where does that leave most TRPG players? Simply playing MMORPGs?


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## UngainlyTitan (Jul 28, 2010)

nedjer said:


> Question is, if companies are determined to go down one route (e.g. make themselves as like MMORPGs as possible), where does that leave most TRPG players? Simply playing MMORPGs?



What companies? I know this accusation was leveled at WoTC but who else?

Anyway I do not buy it. However, I would like to make a point.
We do not know the current state of the hobby, not really we do not have access to the data. Like the Blind men of Hindustan we only know the bits we touch.
In the wider world there are some interesting social phenomena in action right now and I, for one is not sure of all the ramifications but I think they will have a profound effect on how people work and play. I am refereing to social media, widespread use of moblie phones, smart phones and cheap computing.

I do not think that the numbers playing rpg face to face on tables will grow by much. I think that VTT use could increase the numbers if the VTTs are easy enough to use and it would help of modules were published in formats that allowed them to be "installed" in to a VTT by running a simple script.
But that will not grow the hobby by much.

I think that the boardgames (Ravenloft etc) are a good idea and also WoTC should be thinking of leverging the brand IP is some other types of games. An Ebberon RTS or Sharn facebook game. This creates an awareness that there is another kind of game at the back of this and some people will be curious enough to find out more. 
If when they look for the RPG behind those games they find tools that allow them to connect with players from the get go that would grow it faster.


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## deinol (Jul 28, 2010)

*RPGs are Thriving*

Now is a great time to be a gamer. Seriously, there are tons of great games being produced. If you haven't tried something new in the last 6 months, you need to expand your horizons. During the peak of the "Everything must be d20" I used to lament about the lack of alternative games. Back in the late 80's early 90's there were a ton of games to try out there. Now most of them have come back. New ones have arrived.

Here are some games I like that are still in production:
Traveller
Earthdawn
Eclipse Phase
Warhammer (Ok, I'm not sold on 3E yet, but still)
Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader (Totally sold on this!)
Call of Cthulhu
Cthulhutech
Shadowrun
Pathfinder
Mouse Guard
Exalted
Savage Worlds
Gurps
Doctor Who
Dragon Age
Song of Fire and Ice
Mutants and Masterminds (Now with DC Adventures!)

Not to mention more independent games like:
Houses of the Blooded
Dogs in the Vineyard

Those are just the games I know I like off the top of my head. Role-playing is far from dead. The hobby may be diversifying, but there is a lot of great stuff going on. D&D may be in a decline, but overall RPGs are heading up.


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## nedjer (Jul 29, 2010)

ardoughter said:


> What companies? I know this accusation was leveled at WoTC but who else?
> 
> Anyway I do not buy it. However, I would like to make a point.
> We do not know the current state of the hobby, not really we do not have access to the data. Like the Blind men of Hindustan we only know the bits we touch.
> ...




'Slay and shop' may be your accusation but it's only my example - and, perhaps, an observation which could be put to any RPG where gameplay is focused on shopping and slaying. Please exclude me from the whole WotC realpolitik


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## UngainlyTitan (Jul 29, 2010)

nedjer said:


> 'Slay and shop' may be your accusation but it's only my example - and, perhaps, an observation which could be put to any RPG where gameplay is focused on shopping and slaying. Please exclude me from the whole WotC realpolitik



Huh! I simply am lost here, not that I was entirely sure I understood you last post either.


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## nedjer (Jul 29, 2010)

ardoughter said:


> Huh! I simply am lost here, not that I was entirely sure I understood you last post either.




Me too. Happens a lot


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## MadBrewLabs (Aug 10, 2010)

*Growing the Hobby RPG Carnival Wrap-up*

It might interest everyone who commented on this thread that I've written an article with my observations of growing the industry/hobby along with a list of participating blogs that also weighed in the on the matter.

Growing the Hobby Wrap-Up


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 11, 2010)

The industry may be suffering but the hobby doesn't seem to be. Are you counted as part of the hobby if you're like B/X Blackrazor and joethelaywer heaping scorn upon WoTC but enjoying the older games and still playing and getting other people to play? Certainly.

the hobby != the industry

and note I say the industry may be suffering because with the use of computers, we have dozens if not hundreds of publishers that would not have existed twenty years ago like 0one Games and others like Fiery Dragon whose counters would be much diminished iwthout outline selling.


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 11, 2010)

Insight said:


> If you have to remind someone that they need to _shower_, they probably won't do it.




That reminds me of something that I've got to go and do right now.

Nothing to see, move along!


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## Henry (Aug 11, 2010)

I swear, this hobby has "died" more times than a Time Lord. Fortunately, the article is more about growing the hobby, which is not a bad thing to me - I know quite a few people who I think might like the hobby if they gaveit a chance, but they just don't see the benefit in putting much time into their off-time, due to other hobbies, family, or job. It's hard to convince someone that role-playing is a cool activity if they're not willing to give it more than 30 minutes to an hour.


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## joethelawyer (Aug 11, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> The industry may be suffering but the hobby doesn't seem to be. Are you counted as part of the hobby if you're like B/X Blackrazor and joethelaywer heaping scorn upon WoTC but enjoying the older games and still playing and getting other people to play? Certainly.
> 
> .




Thanks for the acknowledgment.  Regardless of how I feel about WOTC and certain boards I rarely post on anymore, I do love the hobby and want to see it grow.  I do what I can, and run older games at events wherever I can.  In fact, I got 2 more players into it over the past 2 weeks---my 5 and 6 yr old nephews.  We're having a blast!


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 11, 2010)

Henry said:


> I swear, this hobby has "died" more times than a Time Lord. Fortunately, the article is more about growing the hobby, which is not a bad thing to me - I know quite a few people who I think might like the hobby if they gaveit a chance, but they just don't see the benefit in putting much time into their off-time, due to other hobbies, family, or job. It's hard to convince someone that role-playing is a cool activity if they're not willing to give it more than 30 minutes to an hour.




And... the dreaded And, can schedule it with four other people.


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