# Cleric of no deity and the War domain



## Knowledge Sinkhole (Aug 5, 2003)

So.. how's it work?  Is there an official ruling on the subject? Does the cleric just get to choose whatever weapon he/she so desires to get proficiency/focus with?  Does he/she not get the domain power?


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## AGGEMAM (Aug 5, 2003)

A cleric with no diety is an ex-cleric for all intent and purposes.


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## Knowledge Sinkhole (Aug 5, 2003)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> *A cleric with no diety is an ex-cleric for all intent and purposes. *




Well.. no.  To quote the SRD:



> *If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
> Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.*


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## Naar (Aug 5, 2003)

I don't see a problem with a cleric devoted to some general principle choosing any martial weapon, since I don't believe there are any restrictions. 

However, if you feel like being restricted, you could go with the weapon that is summoned by the _spiritual weapon_ spell for a cleric of no particular god:
Chaos - Battleaxe
Evil - Light Flail
Good - Warhammer
Law - Longsword


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## Camarath (Aug 5, 2003)

I would say just choose any one non-exotic weapon to use in place of your deities weapon.


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## AGGEMAM (Aug 5, 2003)

Knowledge Sinkhole said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well.. no.  To quote the SRD:
> 
> *




I forgot to include: IMC.

I don't think a patronless cleric could/should exist. Where would the character get their divine power from?


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## Knowledge Sinkhole (Aug 5, 2003)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I forgot to include: IMC.
> 
> I don't think a patronless cleric could/should exist. Where would the character get their divine power from? *




I think the intent was to allow there to be clerics for religions/spiritual beliefs that are not dependant on deities.


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## Wippit Guud (Aug 5, 2003)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> *
> I don't think a patronless cleric could/should exist. Where would the character get their divine power from? *




What if the campaing doesn't have gods, but rather just certain beliefs? (such as one game I'm in at the moment)


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## RingXero (Aug 5, 2003)

Not only does it allow for a cleric to just follow a non-diety centric religion/philosophy (if DM permits) it also allows for a cleric to worship a pantheon of dieties simultaneously.  Pray to the War god for War spells, pray to the god of Healing for those, god of the hunt, or hearth, or sky, or etc...



RX


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## Jhyrryl (Aug 5, 2003)

It's actually a fairly "common" plot twist for a given deity to answer the prayers of (grant spells to) someone in a guise other than their own.

For instance, while gnolls venerate the demon lord Yeenoghu (who is not a deity), any actual "clerics of Yeenoghu" have their spells granted to them by Erythnul.  Another example from FR is the Cult of the Sphere (or something like that), detailed in _Lords of Darkness_.

In my campaign, while there may be hundreds of religions, patron deities, local deities, etc., there is only 1 pantheon of 12 actual deities, none of whom are worshipped directly (and no, it's not anything like DragonStar).  Whenever one or more of those deities sees a mortal need for divine intervention that advances their cause, they take on the most appropriate guises to the situation and start intervening.

But back to the original question, I think the suggestion of using _spiritual weapon_ as a guide is good.  While there's nothing unbalancing with letting them pick any martial or simple weapon, the concept is that the weapon in question is the *deity's* favored weapon.  From that perspective I would choose the weapon for them.


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## Spatzimaus (Aug 5, 2003)

In response to the original question, I'd say follow the Spiritual Weapon list too.  Don't just let the player pick whatever weapon they want.  That'd be too unbalanced; 

That being said, we don't allow deityless Clerics IMC either.  Abstract concepts only give magical power when you're talking about arcane magic; divine magic is DIVINE, meaning it's given by a deity.

The classic way to handle divine magic is the "direct line".  You're a Cleric of Pelor.  You wake up, pray to Pelor, and he grants you whatever powers you need.  You pick two domains related to his specialties, but you only have maybe 5 to choose from.  If you do something that Pelor doesn't like, he stops giving you spells.
Contrast that to the "deityless" system that rule allows for.  You don't have to follow a specific code of conduct, since you don't have a deity whose approval you need to maintain.  You can pretty much pick any two domains you want, no matter how disconnected they seem.  (Side note: who exactly is answering your Communes, anyway?)
How can those be balanced?  In 3E, it just seems that having a specific deity is a drawback in every way, without any actual benefits.  As if Clerics needed ANOTHER boost in power...
If you want to be a deityless caster, try playing an arcane type and claiming to be a "priest".  It works just fine, especially if you can convince your DM to let you make a Sorcerer variant that picks known spells of the Cleric list instead.  Or, play a Druid; it seems a bit less tied to a specific god.


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## garyh (Aug 5, 2003)

Spatzimus - 

Assuming  the domains are balanced, as they're intended to be, what's the harm in picking any two?

Also, I recall the 2E Complete Priests' Handbook describing clerics of forces or beliefs, rather than gods.  If you strayed too far from the belief that grants your power, you lose your spells.  Same as a diety.

"Sorry, Bob, the cosmic force of law escapes Brother Paitr this morning.  Perhaps it is displeased with the way you helped Randolpho the Rogue escape the Town Guard yesterday."


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## Camarath (Aug 5, 2003)

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> *How can those be balanced?  In 3E, it just seems that having a specific deity is a drawback in every way, without any actual benefits.*



 You don't give your clerics very much church support do you?


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## Legildur (Aug 6, 2003)

To answer the original question, the Defenders of the Faith splatbook has an extensive list of favoured weapons based on a number of character parameters aside from their Deity.  IDHBIFOM now, but I recall that they had alignment specific favoured weapons.


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## garyh (Aug 6, 2003)

Legildur said:
			
		

> *To answer the original question...*




Oh, yeah, the original question.  

I don't see a problem with the cleric picking any martial weapon they want.  Even if they take one that can help with neat tricks, like a flail, they still need to take the feats to do the neat tricks.


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## Sejs (Aug 6, 2003)

There's actually precident for this - check out OA.  Shaman get access to domains, one of which is War, and commune with spirits rather than worship gods.

The entry for the Shaman's War domain in OA just says pick one martial weapon.


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## Knowledge Sinkhole (Aug 6, 2003)

Sejs said:
			
		

> *There's actually precident for this - check out OA.  Shaman get access to domains, one of which is War, and commune with spirits rather than worship gods.
> 
> The entry for the Shaman's War domain in OA just says pick one martial weapon. *




Thanks! Official comments about this were exactly what I was hoping for.


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