# Converting monsters from the second edition Monstrous Compendiums



## BOZ (Nov 20, 2003)

This thread continues my idea of “cooperative conversions” started in this thread, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that appeared in various Monstrous Compendiums and Annuals.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

The following is a list of monsters from Monstrous Compendiums that haven’t yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog.  You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when.  If I’m missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.

I left out most of the creatures from the original Monstrous Compendiums, as these would fit better in threads for specific-world monsters.  In fact, many of the monsters from the Annuals would also fit better in other threads, but I will deal with that on a case by case basis.

MC14 - Fiend Folio, 2nd Edition
Flawder
Ruve
Scathe (Scathe, Larvae)
Thunder Children
Zygraat

*MCA1 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One, 1994*

Al-Jahar ("Dazzle")
Bird, Talking
Cat, Winged (Greater, Lesser)
Crypt Servant
Dog, Saluqi
Dragon, Linnorm, Forest (DR182)
Dragon, Linnorm, Land (DR182)
Dragon, Linnorm, Rain (DR183)
Elemental Vermin (Air/"Duster", Earth/"Crawler", Fire/"Flameling", Water/"Spitter")
Genie, Tasked, Administrator
Genie, Tasked, Deceiver
Genie, Tasked, Harim Servant
Genie, Tasked, Messenger
Genie, Tasked, Miner
Genie, Tasked, Oathbinder
Gnasher (Normal, Winged) (DrMn)
Golem, Hammer (DR193)
Golem, Metagolem (DR159)
Greelox
Jarbo (DN35)
Lich, Psionic (RLMC3)
Lycanthrope, Loup du Noir
Lycanthrope, Werejaguar (RR7)
Nautilus, Giant (DR193)
Noran (DrMn)
Parasite (Bloodring, Wizard Lice, Vilirij)
Pasari-Niml
Rautym (DrMn)
Shadeling
Snake, Giant Cobra
Snake, Stone (DrMn)
Spectral Wizard
Spider, Brain (DrMn)
Suwyze (DrMn)
Tatalla
Tick, Heart
Tree, Singing
Troll, Snow
Undead Dwarf (DrMn)
Undead Lake Monster (CsFrl as "Aggie")
Wolf, Zombie (RLMC3)



MCA2 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two, 1995

EoE - Elves of Evermeet (FR accessory)
RoU2 - Ruins of Undermountain II (FR boxed set)
Spbd - Spellbound (FR boxed set)
CoS - City of Splendors (FR boxed set)
NtB - Night Below (AD&D boxed set)

Addazahr
Amiq Rasol
Arch-Shadow (also Demi-Shade) (Secret of Spiderhaunt, Return of Randal Morn)
Automaton, Trobriand's (Ferragam, Silversann, Thanatar) (RoU2)
Bi-Nou (Bi-Nou, Rockworm, Rocklord) (RoU2)
Cat, Great - Cath Shee (EoE)
Cat, Crypt (Normal, Large)
Centaur-Kin, Dorvesh (PL95)
Centaur-Kin, Gnoat (PL95)
Centaur-Kin, Ha'pony (PL95)
Centaur-Kin, Zebranaur (PL95)
Chronolily (9294 Dragon's Rest)
Dragon, Brine
Dragon-kin, Sea Wyrm
Ekimmu (DR210)
Elemental, Nature (RoZK)
Fish, Subterranean (Wattley, Lemon Fish, Irridescent Plecoe) (RoU2)
Flareater (RoU2)
Ghost, Casura (DR210)
Ghost, Ker (DR210)
Ghul-Kin (Soultaker, Witherer)
Golem, Burning Man (DR209)
Golem, Phantom Flyer (DR209)
Human, Dragon Slayer
Human, Vistana
Kalin
Kholiathra (EoE)
Leucrotta, Greater (CoS)
Lurker, Shadow (RoU2)
Lycanthrope, Werepanther
Marl
Mold (Deep Mold, Gray Mold, Death Mold) (RoU2)
Mummy, Creature (Animal, Monster)
Palimpest (CoS)
Peltast (HoHK, CoS)
Plant, Dangerous (Firethorn)
Pudding, Subterranean (Stone, Gray, Dense) (RoU2)
Snake, Serpent (Herald, Teak)
Snake, Serpent Vine (RoU2)
Sprite, Seelie Faerie (Spbd as seelie sprite)
Sprite, Unseelie Faerie (Spbd as unseelie sprite)
Turtle, Giant (Giant Sea, Giant Snapping)
Vizier's Turban



MCA3 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three, 1996

RoZK - Ruins of Zhentil Keep (FR boxed set)
PoCh - Planes of Chaos (PS boxed set)
PoL - Planes of Law (PS boxed set)
PoCo - Planes of Conflict (PS boxed set)
Chron - Chronomancer (AD&D suppelement)
PFtM - Pages From the Mages (FR supplement)
Neth - Netheri: Empire of Magic (FR boxed set)

Beetle (Stink)
Bvanen
Cat, Great, Snow Tiger (Spbd)
Chronovoid (Chron)
Dog, Temporal (Chron)
Dragon, Cerilian
Dream Spawn, Greater - Ennui
Dream Spawn, Lesser - Morph
Dreamweaver
Elemental Fire-Kin - Tome Guardian (PFtM)
Ethyk (PoCo)
Gargoyle (Archer, Spouter, Stone Lion) (DR223)
Giant, Cerilian (Forest, Ice)
Goblin, Cerilian
Golem, Magic (RoZK)
Head, Arcane
Human, Cerliian (Anurien/Knight, Brecht/Tradesman, Khinasi/Soldier, Rjurik/Berserker, Vos/Mercenary)
Imp, Chaos (PoCh)
Life-Shaped Creations: Guardians (Climbdog, Darkstrike, Protector, Shieldbug, Watcher)
Life-Shaped Creations: Transport (Ber-ethern, Yihn-eflan, Gon-evauth, Dhev-sahr)
Lycanthrope, Werespider
Magedoom (RoZK)
Manotaur
Mist, Scarlet Dancer (RoZK)
Orc, Neo-Orog (Red, Black) (Spbd)
Owlbear (Arctic, Winged) (DR214)
Reggelid
Snake, Messenger (RoZK)
Spirit, Forest - Wood Man (Spbd)
Tembo
Temporal Glider (Chron)
Temporal Stalker (Chron)
Tether Beast (Chron)
Time Dimensional (Common, Noble, Royal) (MM2 as time elemental, Chron);
Undead Dragon Slayer (DR205)
Vortex Spider (Chron)



MCA4 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four, 1998

R7P - Rod of Seven Parts
GFP - Gates of Firestorm Peak
DRAn# - Dragon Annual #
T:tM - Taladas: the Minotaurs (DL boxed set)
MLoLS - Mind Lords of the Last Sea (DS)
Req - Requiem (RL)

Anemone, Giant Sea (DR116)
Bainligor (DR227)
Carapace (DR227)
Children of the Sea (Child of the Sea, Accantus) (T:tM)
Clam, Giant (Giant Clam/Oyster, Carnivorous Scallop) (DR116)
Clockwork Swordsman (Red Steel Online MC)
Coral (Brain Coral, Coral Worm) (Brain-DR116, Worm-LNA2 Newhon)
Darklore (Hellbound: The Bloodwar)
Dolphin - Athasian (MLoLS)
Dragon, Neutral - Moonstone Dragon
Dragon, Prismatic (DN51)
Dragon-Kin, Albino Wyrm (DR227)
Dream Stalker (Req)
Fish, Athasian (Kreel, Puddingfish, Athasian Shark, Skyfish) (MLoLS)
Fish, Deep Ocean (Angler Fish, Death Minnow, Gulper, Viperfish (DR235)
Fish, Tropical (Giant Grouper, Morena, Porcupine Fish, Electric Ray) (DR116)
Fraal (Alternity Player's Handbook)
Giant - Crag Giant, Fhoimorien (Crag-MLoLS, Fhoim-Warlock of the Stonecrowns)
Gibberling, Brood (Far Realm) (GFP)
Hound of Law (R7P)
Human, Amazon (PL22)
Human, Pygmy (DN56)
Mercurial (Doors to the Unknown - PS accessory)
Mold, Chromatic (DR227)
Mummy, Bog (DR238, Req)
Octopus, Octo-jelly (Octo-jelly, Octo-Hide) (DRAn1)
Sea Demon (DR48)
Sea Hermit (Red Steel Online MC)
Sea Serpent ("Sea Glutton") (Red Steel Online MC)
Sea Worm ("Echyan") (Red Steel Online MC)
Shadowrath (RoMD, CoS)
Siren, Ravenloft (Req)
Skeleton, Variant (Dust, Spike, Obsidian) (DR234)
Snake - Mahogany Constrictor (The Sword of Roele)
Spectral Scion (Highlands of Rjurik)
Squid, Shark (MLoLS)
Starfish, Giant - Giant Sunstar (RA2-Ship of Horror)
Troll Mutate (Far Realm) (GFP)
Vampire, Cerebral (Bleak House)
Varkha (DRAn1)
Wizshade (MC7, also Volo's Guide to All Things Magical)
Worm, Lukhorn (DRAn1)
Zombie, Mud (Death Ascendent)


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2003)

Linnorms, definitely.   And don't forget the gacholoth.


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## BOZ (Nov 20, 2003)

how could I forget?  

first up on the firing squad – the gacholoth from MCA4!  


Yugoloth, Lesser - Gacholoth 

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Lower planes 
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Carnivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11- 12) 
TREASURE: Nil 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil 

NO. APPEARING: 1-3 
ARMOR CLASS: -1 
MOVEMENT: 24 
HIT DICE: 9+9 
THAC0: 11 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws or 1 bite 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d6/2d6 or 1d10 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Acid touch, shock 
SPECIAL DEFENCES: +1 or better weapon to hit 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40% 
SIZE: L (8' tall) 
MORALE: Elite (13-14) 
XP VALUE: 18,000 

Gacholoths are the infiltrators and terrorists of the Blood War.  They use their abilities to cause havoc and spread panic behind enemy lines.  They also might spend months, years, even centuries, serving in the army of a temporary master with unquestioned loyalty, while secretly waiting for the best moment to reveal their true allegiance and begin a reign of slaughter and terror. 

Gacholoths have a roughly humanoid appearance.  Their bodies are an ebony black, and they have four long and powerful legs, each tipped with three sharp claws to aid in climbing. Their well-muscled torsos have two arms, each ending in a hand with four fingers that are tipped with savage, retractable claws. Gacholoth skulls are bony, their ears are triangular and flare back; it thick shock of dark hair flows back from a receding hairline. Sharp fangs thrust forward prominently, while the sunken eyes are cold and inhuman. Something about their skull structure suggests sahuagin. 

Gacholoths communicate using telepathy. 

Combat: Gacholoths can see 90 feet in normal darkness.  Their four powerful legs enable them to move with blinding speed on any surface, climbing walls and ceilings without hindrance. They can fight from any angle without disorientation, even hanging upside down. 

As a consequence of their speed and maneuverability, gacholoths have a +5 bonus to their initiative in the first round of combat (initiative in subsequent rounds is determined normally). Gacholoths often strike swiftly and savagely before their opponents can react, then immediately withdraw from combat until another opening presents itself. 

Their sudden attack has another effect. Anyone attacked by a gacholoth for the first time (whether hit or not) must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or go into shock. This shock is a fear attack that induces irrational terror; the victim drops all hand-held items and is rooted to the spot for 1d6 rounds. Regardless of whether or not the victim makes his saving throw, no subsequent attack by the same gacholoth will cause this shock effect. 

Gacholoths do not carry weapons, magical or otherwise, preferring to rely on the speed and ferocity of their natural weapons. The gacholoth either strikes with both claws (70% of the time) or bites (30% of the time). A bite inflicts 1d10 points of damage, while the claws inflict 2d6 points of damage.  The claws also secrete a stinging, acidic venom. Any creature hit by a claw attack must make a successful saving throw vs. poison or take an additional 1d6 points of acid damage. 

As with other yugoloths the gacholoth has the following spell-like abilities: alter self, animate dead, cause disease, charm person, improved phantasmal force, produce flame, and gate (50% chance for one gacholoth, 1/day). In addition, gacholoths have the following powers, at 5th-level spell use, usable once per round, at will: darkness 15' radius, feather fall, magic missile, and mirror image. 

Gacholoths are unaffected by acid, poison and charm spells. They take half damage from gas attacks, including poison gases, but double damage from cold-based attacks. 

Habitat/Society: The gacholoths' fondness for deceit and terror make them favored troops in yugoloth conflicts, and many have risen to minor positions of power as a result. 

Gacholoths have a particular interest in the workings of the Prime Material plane and will take an opportunity to enter that plane and indulge in a reign of bloodletting. They often use their shock ability to play with their victims, paralyzing them and making a leisurely job of it. 

Gacholoths consider themselves to be the great betrayers and terrorists of the Outer Planes and will not allow others of similar skill to outdo them. For example, they have an intense hatred of succubi and erinyes, taking pleasure in torturing to death any of these they capture. Gacholoths often clash with cambions, and nearly always become their bitter rivals. 

Ecology: The origin of the gacholoths is unknown. All of them appear to be male; no distinctly female versions have ever been sighted. The faint resemblance to sahuagin suggests some long-lost connection between these creatures and the "devil men of the deep," but hard evidence has yet to be discovered. 

- From DUNGEON Magazine #49 



here are some preliminary stats for the gacholoth:

*Yugoloth, Gacholoth*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Yugoloth)
Hit Dice: 9d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+X
Attack: Claw +X melee (2d6+X)
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (2d6+X) or bite +X melee (1d10+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Acid touch (venom from claws), shock (fear/frightful presence?), spell-like abilities, summon yugoloth, (+5 initiative bonus in 1st round)
Special Qualities: Damage reduction X/X, darkvision 90 ft, immunity to acid and poison, (immune to charms), resistance to fire 10 and electricity 10, spell resistance 19, telepathy, (spider climb-like ability), (double damage from cold), (half damage from gas)
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con X Int 12 Wis X Cha X
Skills: (Climb bonus?) 108 total ranks
Feats: 4

Environment: Grey Waste of Hades
Organization: Solitary or (1-3)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 11-18 HD (Medium); 19-27 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +X



COMBAT



Originally found in Dungeon Magazine #49 (“The Dark Place”, September/October 1994, Lee Shepherd), and Monstrous Compendium Annual Four (1998).


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## Krishnath (Nov 20, 2003)

SR equal to 8+CR, DR 10/good?


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> As a consequence of their speed and maneuverability, gacholoths have a +5 bonus to their initiative in the first round of combat (initiative in subsequent rounds is determined normally). Gacholoths often strike swiftly and savagely before their opponents can react, then immediately withdraw from combat until another opening presents itself.




This screams out Improved Initiative and Spring Attack.  Whether we want to go up the Dodge tree or just make Spring Attack a bonus feat would be worth debating.   I'd prefer making it a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2003)

Some random thoughts...

I'd change "double damage from cold" to the vulnerability to cold quality.

This suggests a climb speed equal to its land speed:  "Their four powerful legs enable them to move with blinding speed on any surface, climbing walls and ceilings without hindrance."  And this suggests a spider climb ability:  "They can fight from any angle without disorientation, even hanging upside down."

Did all 2E yugoloths have the "half damage from gas" trait?  If so, I'd follow the others with simply poison immunity.

For stats, it seems like it would have a high Cha for its infiltration role.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—deeper darkness, feather fall, magic missle, mirror image; x/day—alter self, animate dead, charm person, contagion, produce flame. Caster level 5th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Is there a 3E equivalent to improved phantasmal force? 

Summon Yugoloth (Sp): Once per day, a gacholoth can attempt to summon another gacholoth with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a ?-level spell.


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## BOZ (Nov 20, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Is there a 3E equivalent to improved phantasmal force?




i do beleive Minor Image does that now.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i do beleive Minor Image does that now.




Cool.  I know very little about the Illusion school...its always the school that gets dumped for my specialist wizards (after Enchantment).


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

how's this for ability scores?

Str 19 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 16


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how's this for ability scores?
> 
> Str 19 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 16




That looks about right.   Savage and charismatic.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

you need a good charisma for fear effects to work right.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

here's where i'm at so far:

*Yugoloth, Gacholoth*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Yugoloth)
Hit Dice: 9d8+27 (67 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (+2 Dex, +9 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+13
Attack: Claw +13 melee (2d6+4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (2d6+4) or bite +13 melee (1d10+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Acid touch (venom from claws), shock (fear/frightful presence?), spell-like abilities, summon yugoloth, (+5 initiative bonus in 1st round)
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 90 ft, immunity to acid and poison, (immune to charms), resistance to fire 10 and electricity 10, spell resistance 19, telepathy 100 ft, vulnerability to cold, (spider climb-like ability)
Saves: Fort +9 Ref +8 Will +8
Abilities: Str 19 Dex 14 Con 17 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 16
Skills: (Climb bonus?) 108 total ranks
Feats: 4 (Improved Initiative and Spring Attack?)

Environment: Grey Waste of Hades
Organization: Solitary or (1-3)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 11-18 HD (Medium); 19-27 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +X



COMBAT

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – deeper darkness, feather fall, magic missile, minor image, mirror image; x/day – alter self, animate dead, charm person, contagion, produce flame. Caster level 5th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Summon Yugoloth (Sp): Once per day, a gacholoth can attempt to summon another gacholoth with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a ?-level spell.

Originally found in Dungeon Magazine #49 (“The Dark Place”, September/October 1994, Lee Shepherd), and Monstrous Compendium Annual Four (1998).


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## BOZ (Nov 23, 2003)

looked at the PSMC1 today.  all yugoloths received alter self, animate dead, cause disease (reverse of cure disease), charm person, improved phantasmal force, produce flame, and teleport without error (which would be greater teleport now?).  so really, i'd say that all the spell-like abilities listed above should be at will.

and as for the caster level for the summoning, do we have any other yugoloths to compare to?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> looked at the PSMC1 today.  all yugoloths received alter self, animate dead, cause disease (reverse of cure disease), charm person, improved phantasmal force, produce flame, and teleport without error (which would be greater teleport now?).  so really, i'd say that all the spell-like abilities listed above should be at will.
> 
> and as for the caster level for the summoning, do we have any other yugoloths to compare to?




I looked at all the current yugoloths, and they don't appear to have any spell-like abilities in common anymore.  Most don't have any of the abilities listed above.   So should the gacholoth should have these abilities at all?

The caster level of the summon ability appears to be based on the summon monster spell level needed to summon the creature(s) called by this ability.   So we need to determine what current yugoloth (or other fiend) the gacholoth would be comparable to in order to determine the caster level of the ability.


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2003)

Some more thoughts on this critter...

Feats:  Dodge, Mobility, Improved Initiative, Spring Attack

Skill Ranks:  Bluff 12, Diplomacy 12, Gather Information 12, Hide 12, Intimidate 12, Listen 6, Move Silently 12, Sense Motive 12, Spot 6, Tumble 12     (108 total ranks).  I was also considering Knowledge (the planes) and Disguise.  What do you think?

Skills:   Gacholoths have a +4 racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.   They have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

Shock:  This sounds alot like frighful presence.   Here's an attempt at the entry.   

Frightful Presence (Ex): When a gacholoth attacks an opponent for the first time, the foe must attempt a DC X Will save. On a failure, a creature with 4 or fewer HD becomes panicked for 1d6 rounds, and one with 5 or more HD becomes shaken for 1d6 rounds. A successful save leaves that opponent immune to that gacholoth's frightful presence for 24 hours. Yugoloths ignore the frightful presence of a gacholoth.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Acid (Ex):  A gacholoth's claws secrete acid at all times. This acid deals 1d6 points of extra acid damage whenever it hits with a claw attack and when grappling, during each round when it maintains a hold

And borrowed from our living web...    

Wallcrawling (Ex): The gacholoth need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it.

Thoughts?


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## Krishnath (Nov 26, 2003)

Sounds good to me.


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2003)

excellent call on the wallcrawling!    what should his climb speed be do you think?  make it 60 feet or slower?



> The claws also secrete a stinging, acidic venom. Any creature hit by a claw attack must make a successful saving throw vs. poison or take an additional 1d6 points of acid damage.




should the acid attack retain a saving throw?


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> excellent call on the wallcrawling!    what should his climb speed be do you think?  make it 60 feet or slower?




I'd go with 60 ft. since "Their four powerful legs enable them to move with blinding speed on any surface, climbing walls and ceilings without hindrance."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> should the acid attack retain a saving throw?




I wouldn't bother.   1d6 isn't much extra damage, and most monsters that do an additional 1d6 energy damage don't allow a save.  Besides, it saves those poor players some rolling.


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2003)

posted, check it out!


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2003)

comments?


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## Krishnath (Nov 30, 2003)

Looking good


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

It is coming along nicely.   Here's a few suggestions for what's left.

Organization:  Solitary, pair, or squad (3-4)

I think that Improved Initiative and high Dex should cover the +5 
initiative bonus in 1st round.

Save DCS:  frightful presence (DC 17), minor image (DC 15), charm person (DC 14), contagion (DC 17).  

I'd suggest 3/day for the additional spell-like abilities.

Since the gacholoth seems around the same power as a piscoloth, but not as challenging as a yagnoloth (which can do energy drain, among other things), I'd place it at CR 9.  Since a piscoloth can be summoned using summon monster VII, I'd suggest the same for the gacholoth.  If we go with this, the gacholoth's summon yugoloth ability is the equivalent of a 7th-level spell.

I'd also suggest we add the following line in the Combat section of the description:  "A gacholoth can be summoned using a summon monster VII spell."


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Save DCS:  frightful presence (DC 17), minor image (DC 15), charm person (DC 14), contagion (DC 17).
> 
> I'd suggest 3/day for the additional spell-like abilities.




i beleive the question came up as to whether or not to keep all of these spell-like abilities.  the list given in the creature's original description is as such:



> As with other yugoloths the gacholoth has the following spell-like abilities: alter self, animate dead, cause disease, charm person, improved phantasmal force, produce flame, and gate (50% chance for one gacholoth, 1/day). In addition, gacholoths have the following powers, at 5th-level spell use, usable once per round, at will: darkness 15' radius, feather fall, magic missile, and mirror image.




the first set given there is what all 2E yugoloths had.  the second set is what the gacholoth had beyond that.  are we keeping everything?


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

Of those that all yugoloths had in 2E (alter self, animate dead, cause disease, charm person, improved phantasmal force, produce flame, and gate), I'd say that the gacholoth should have at the least alter self and charm person (since it is the infiltrator), and cause disease (now contagion) seems a good fit.   Gate is covered by the summon yugoloth ability now, it would seem.  I'd ditch animate dead.   I could go either way on produce flame and improved phantasmal force.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

here's what i'll use:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – alter self, charm person (DC 14), contagion (DC 17), deeper darkness, feather fall, magic missile, minor image (DC 15), mirror image. Caster level 5th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.



> Gacholoths are unaffected by acid, poison and charm spells.




ok, the immunity to acid and poison is an easy one.  how about "unaffected by... charm spells"?


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## Krishnath (Dec 1, 2003)

Not needed to change, Deep dragons have Charm immunity. There is nothing ambigious (sp?) about it.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

hmm yeah, but with no explanation.  how about this:

Charm Immunity (Ex): A gacholoth is immune to charm monster and mass charm monster spells.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm yeah, but with no explanation.  how about this:
> 
> Charm Immunity (Ex): A gacholoth is immune to charm monster and mass charm monster spells.




That would work, but if you want to go 3.5, you'll have to say Immunity to Charm.  It's all backwards in 3.5.    

You could also do it like the Asura in BOED...

Immunities: Asuras are immune to fire, petrification, charms, and compulsions.

but just shorten it to...

Immunities: Gacholoths are immune to charms.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

ok, updated and with flavor text!  how ya like me now?


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

I'd say he's ready to ruin many an adventurer's day.    

How about 600 pounds  (more than a vrock, less than a hezrou, all 8 feet tall)?


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

hmm... if he's 8 feet tall, why did i decide to make him only medium?


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## the Jester (Dec 2, 2003)

High end medium... (looks other way, whistles innocently)

I just wanted to suggest the dharculus next.  It's my favorite monster of all.

Also, Boz, do you ever write up advanced versions with the basics?  I was thinking, given the neh-thalggu (brain collector) in the ELH, it seems like maybe all we see in the original source is the baby dharculus.   

I have to admit, I like the idea meself...

By the way, check out the neh-thalggu in MCA4 and compare it to the one in the ELH.  Quite a difference.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

the Jester said:
			
		

> High end medium... (looks other way, whistles innocently)




Actually, that is a reasonable answer.    

Do we want to keep it Medium or bump it up to large?

The dharculus is an excellent suggestion, btw.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

hmm, far realm... never quite got that.    well, i can always pull it out and see what happens.  

are we done with this fellow here then?


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

Ship him off to the Blood War, he's ready.


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## Krishnath (Dec 2, 2003)

He is definetly ready.

Shade: I suggest we keep it medium.

btw, what's a Dharculus?


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

They’re like ethereal eels that can feed on material plane victims.


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## Krishnath (Dec 2, 2003)

In other words, they're food for Etheral Dragons... 

But more ethereal monsters are always nice to have.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

Anything with ties to the Far Realm is fine with me (from a DM standpoint, that is.)


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

ok, ok, i'll start that one up in a day or two.    let's get to finishing up what we have going on already...


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## the Jester (Dec 2, 2003)

To answer the question above, I'd say keep him medium.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

the consensus reigns.


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## the Jester (Dec 3, 2003)

"On _my_ home plane, medium goes up to eleven."


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## BOZ (Dec 5, 2003)

you asked for it, you got it!  


Dharculus (Far Realm)

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Special
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY/CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral

NO, APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 6 or 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4x6 (tentacles) or 2d 10 (ma w)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Ethereal attack
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (30' long)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The dharculi are swimmers of the Border Ethereal, inserting, their mawed tentacles into the Prime Material Mane to feed. Their tentacles appear as a swarm of blind eel-like creatures sliding through the air in a deadly school. To those who can see into the Ethereal Plane, the eels are revealed to be protruding tentacle tips, some ending in small maws.  The much longer tentacles are joined in the Ethereal Plane, in a fused worm-like braid that forms the main body of the creature. The posterior end of the cylindrical body
loops back toward the front like a question mark. This end has a huge, drooling maw filled with razor-sharp teeth. The dharculus has five tentacles that end in eyes instead of maws, which the entity keeps safely tucked into the Ethereal Plane to search through the mists for its next victim.

Combat: Dharculi feed by dipping their tentacles into the Prime Material Plane and drawing prey into the Ethereal. Each of their half dozen mawed tentacles attacks individually, inflicting 1d4 points of damage and attaching to the prey. An attached tentacle causes no further damage, but a successful Strength check at a penalty of -2 removes an attached tentacle, causing 1d4 points of damage as the teeth tear free (use a saving throw vs. paralysis for creatures with no Strength rating). If a dharculus attaches three or more tentacles to a single victim, only a successful saving throw vs. death prevents the victim from being drawn into the Ethereal Plane at the beginning of the next round. Here, the dharculus can bring its horrible primary maw to bear on the victim for 2d10 points of damage. The saving throw must be made each round that opens with three tentacles attached to the victim,

Each individual tentacle possesses the following statistics: AC 3; MV Fl 9; HD 2; hp 8 each; THAC0 11 (as the dharculus's HD); #AT 1; Dmg 1d4; SZ S (2'-10' long); ML As dharculus. Tentacles that have taken 8 points of damage in full, and the last strike from an edged weapon, are severed. They fall to the ground, looking like dead eels out of water (the dharculus regenerates damaged tentacles at the rate of 2 points per tentacle for each 12 hours on the Ethereal Plane). A hit with a magical weapon has a 20% chance per magical plus to knock the appendage fully back into the Ethereal Plane, where it takes the dharculus four rounds to insert it back through the veil to the Prime Material Plane.

A victim drawn into the Ethereal Plane can fight the whole creature as the beast attacks with its devastating primary bite. Killing the dharculus leaves the victim drifting in the Border Ethereal, able to see his companions through the gray mist, but unable to contact them. A marooned individual without extraordinary resources is lost; however, a single chance still remains: The dharculus's tentacles that inserted into the Prime Material plane offer a brief lifeline before they recede into the ethereal deeps (up to four rounds). It is possible to use a flaccid tentacle as a rope, and physically pull oneself back into the Prime Material Plane. A successful Strength check indicates success.

Habitat/Society: Dharculi are creatures from an alternate reality far from the Prime Material Plane and perhaps beyond the planar cosmology as well. So far, these creatures have congregated near the point of their entry into this reality. 'This may be because they are somehow dependent upon some element of their own Far Realm, or it may just be coincidence, in which case it seems inevitable that more will arrive, hunting the beaches of the Prime Material Plane in relative safety from the shallow sea of the Border Ethereal.

These creatures have an utterly alien psychology, but their underlying need seems to be to feed. A dharculus never passes up an easy meal. In fact, the creature is not above dragging creatures across the ethereal veil just to save it for later snacking. They boldly hunt other creatures that cross their paths without regard to rank or hierarchy.

Ecology- It is not known whether these creatures mate, or merely asexually bud or fission. It the latter is true, even a single creature could rapidly populate an area Their current rarity and tendency to gather near their point of entry into this reality may be because they are somehow dependent on some particular element of their own Far Realm and need to stay near the point when the cross-dimensional leakage of this influence occurs. If this is true, only creatures near the point of entry are in peril. However, if the zone of influence is slowly expanding into the Prime Material Plane itself, then the situation would be most dangerous.

-From Gates of Firestorm Peak, #9533



some preliminary stats for the dharculus:

*Dharculus*
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 10d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (-2 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+X
Attack: Tentacle +X melee (1d4+X)
Full Attack: 6 tentacles +X melee (1d4+X) or bite +X melee (2d10+X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: (attach/improved grab)
Special Qualities: All-around vision, (ethereal jaunt?)
Saves: Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +7 (base)
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con X Int 12 Wis X Cha X
Skills: 117 ranks – Search, Spot
Feats: 4

Environment: (Far Realm?)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge); 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: +X

COMBAT 

Originally found in Gates of Firestorm Peak (?) and Monstrous Compendium Annual Four (1998).


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## the Jester (Dec 5, 2003)

Good start!    As I said, this is my favorite monster EVAR.  

I think on the ethereal it can attack with its tentacles _and bite_- the description states that it can attack with its 'whole body.'

For some starter suggestions on stats:

Str 29, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 11?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2003)

Here's an update of BOZ's stat block using Jester's suggested stats and some of my thoughts.   I extrapolated the tentacle severing info from the kraken, the etheral snare from the maulgoth, and the "attach" from the mind flayer.

*Dharculus*
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 10d8+50 (95 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+27
Attack: Tentacle +17 melee (1d4+9)
Full Attack: 6 tentacles +17 melee (1d4+9) or bite +12 melee (2d10+4)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft (20 ft. with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: All-around vision, (ethereal jaunt?)
Saves: Fort +12 Ref +8 Will +9 
Abilities:Str 29, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 11
Skills: Hide -7 (-8 for size),  117 ranks – Search, Spot
Feats: 4

Environment: (Far Realm or Ethereal Plane?)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge); 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: +X

COMBAT 

An opponent can make sunder attempts against a dharculus' tentacles as if they were weapons. A dharculus' tentacles have 8 hit points. If a dharculus is currently grappling a target with one tentacle, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a dharculus’ tentacle deals damage to the dharculus equal to half the tentacle’s full normal hit points. A dharculus usually withdraws from combat if it loses more than X tentacles. A dharculus regrows severed tentacles in X days.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dharculus must hit a creature with a tentacle attack. It can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and attaches the tentacle to the opponent. 

If a dharculus begins its turn with at least one tentacle attached, it can try to attach two additional tentacles with a single grapple check. The opponent can escape with a single successful grapple check or Escape Artist check, but the dharculus gets a +2 circumstance bonus for every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of the opponent's turn.

Ethereal Snare (Ex): A dharculus that begins its turn with three or more tentacles attached and that makes a successful grapple check can attempt to force an opponent onto the Ethereal Plane. The victim must make a X saving throw (DC X) to avoid being forced onto the Ethereal Plane.

Originally found in Gates of Firestorm Peak (?) and Monstrous Compendium Annual Four (1998).[/QUOTE]


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2003)

looking good so far...


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2003)

worked up some flavor text:

_This massive creature looks something like a huge, floating worm.  One end of its cylindrical body loops backward, and features a horrible, drooling maw filled with razor-sharp teeth.  Attached to the other end is a sort of fused braid of several mawed tentacles, which resemble a swarm of blind eels.  Some of these tentacles are tipped with lidded eyes instead, which constantly scan the area around them._

The dharculus is a bizarre monster that spends most of its time “swimming” in the border Ethereal Plane hunting creatures on the Material Plane.  These utterly alien creatures come from a reality far removed from the Material Plane, and perhaps the planes as we know them.  Thus far, the dharculi have congregated only near their point of entry into our reality in the border Ethereal from their own Far Realm.  Perhaps they are dependent somehow on their homeworld and do not want to stray too far from it, but this is unknown.

The physiology of the dharculus is alien and perhaps incomprehensible.  It is known that they feed at every opportunity, regardless of the power or status of its intended victims.  It is not known how they reproduce, but there may be significant danger if they are able to reproduce while on the Ethereal Plane.  Thus far, no dharculus has been able to enter the Material Plane, but the day may come when such an alarming event might occur.

A dharculus is 30 feet long, and its tentacles can be anywhere from 2-10 feet long.

COMBAT
To hunt creatures on the Material Plane, the dharculus inserts its mawed tentacles into minute holes in the Ethereal Plane.  It may send any or all of its six tentacles through.  The dharculus uses its five eye tentacles to search the mists of the Ethereal Plane for its next victim, and does not send them to the Material Plane.  Those on the Material Plane might mistake the tentacles as a school of blind, flying eel creatures.  Each of these tentacles can attack independently, and the dharculus attempts to attach these tentacles to victims, that it may drag victims onto the Ethereal Plane.  The dharculus can be fully engaged on the Ethereal plane, as it can use its bite attack and creatures can attack the main body.

An opponent can make sunder attempts against a dharculus' tentacles as if they were weapons. A dharculus' tentacles have 8 hit points. If a dharculus is currently grappling a target with one tentacle, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a dharculus’ tentacle deals damage to the dharculus equal to half the tentacle’s full normal hit points. A dharculus usually withdraws from combat if it loses more than X tentacles. A dharculus regrows severed tentacles in 2 days, but only while it is fully on the Ethereal plane.

If the dharculus is killed, its victims are stranded on the border Ethereal, unable to return to the Material Plane unless they have the means to do so.  However, characters may grasp any tentacles that the dharculus had inserted onto the Material Plane at the time of its death.  A successful (Use Rope?) check allows a character to pull himself pack onto the Material Plane.  These tentacles only remain 1d4 rounds each before receding back into the deeper Ethereal with the main body.



and some questions:

Should we give them blindsense so that their tentacles know where to attack?  Or can they physically see victims on the Material from the Ethereal?



> An attached tentacle causes no further damage, but a successful Strength check at a penalty of -2 removes an attached tentacle, causing 1d4 points of damage as the teeth tear free (use a saving throw vs. paralysis for creatures with no Strength rating).




should we keep that 1d4 damage?



> A hit with a magical weapon has a 20% chance per magical plus to knock the appendage [tentacle] fully back into the Ethereal Plane, where it takes the dharculus four rounds to insert it back through the veil to the Prime Material Plane.




keep or no?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2003)

Excellent description.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Should we give them blindsense so that their tentacles know where to attack?  Or can they physically see victims on the Material from the Ethereal?




I don't think we'll need any special vision.  Per the SRD:  "An ethereal creature can see and hear into the Material Plane in a 60-foot radius, though material objects still block sight and sound. (An ethereal creature can’t see through a material wall, for instance.) An ethereal creature inside an object on the Material Plane cannot see. Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct, and ghostly."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> should we keep that 1d4 damage?




I'm thinking we should just add to the Improved Grab ability that the dharculus continues to do tentacle damage every round that the hold is maintained.  Whaddya think?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> keep or no?




I'd lose it.  The mechanic is too clunky.


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm thinking we should just add to the Improved Grab ability that the dharculus continues to do tentacle damage every round that the hold is maintained.  Whaddya think?




i'd say no.  that 1d4 damage only comes into play when a tentacle is forcibly removed.  isn' there a precedent for such a thing?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'd say no.  that 1d4 damage only comes into play when a tentacle is forcibly removed.  isn' there a precedent for such a thing?




None that I'm aware of short of the harpoon (deals damage equal to the initial damage the harpoon caused).

The reason I'd advocate the tentacle damage each round is that the dharculus already does significantly less damage with its tentacles than a Huge creature (1d4 is normal tentacle damage for Medium creatures).   Most creatures with tentacles either do continuous damage while grappling or have the constrict ability.  The wyste, a "similar" creature originally from the Far Realms, continues to do tentacle damage while drawing the victim to its mouth for the bite attack.

Just my 2 coppers.


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2003)

hmm... allright, but if we do it that way it shouldn't be more than 1d4 damage per round.


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## the Jester (Dec 11, 2003)

Lookin' good so far!

I'd keep the 1d4 damage upon removing the tentacle and get rid of the 20%/plus thing- very, very clunky! 

For the ethereal snare, I'd say a Will save (DC 15 if cha-based or 24 if str-based).  Whatcha think?


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2003)

the Jester said:
			
		

> For the ethereal snare, I'd say a Will save (DC 15 if cha-based or 24 if str-based).  Whatcha think?




I agree with the Will save and would go with Cha-based, since this is similar to forcing a plane shift upon a target, not using physical strength to pull them through.


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## the Jester (Dec 11, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> I agree with the Will save and would go with Cha-based, since this is similar to forcing a plane shift upon a target, not using physical strength to pull them through.




Keeping in mind that this is how it gets its food, I'd say we should boost its Cha to around 16 then.


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## BOZ (Dec 11, 2003)

cha boost it is.


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## BOZ (Dec 11, 2003)

and, posting here: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66577


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2003)

That'll work.  Ability Focus wouldn't hurt, either.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2003)

Some thoughts after reviewing it in Homebrews...

SA:  Ethereal snare, improved grab

Suggested Skills:  Escape Artist 13, Hide 13, Knowledge (the planes) 13, Listen 13, Move Silently 13, Search 13, Spot 13, Survival 13, Swim 13

Suggested Feats: Ability Focus (ethereal snare), Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (tentacle)

It should probably require a Climb check rather than Use Rope to pull oneself back to the Material Plane.  Of course, the synergy bonus (if you have 5 or more ranks in Use Rope, you get a +2 bonus on Climb checks made to climb a rope) will come in handy.  Perhaps DC 20?  (15 for climbing an unknotted rope, +5 for it being slippery).

Add: 

All-Around Vision (Ex): A dharculus can see in all directions at once. Because of this, it has a +4 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks, and it cannot be flanked.

Finally, we need to figure out how to do word its ability to send its tentacle into the Material Plane.   Etheral jaunt would bring the whole creature, and manifestation would imply that the tentacles are ethereal.  I am almost certain there is a precedence for this, but haven't found the creature that has it yet.


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## BOZ (Dec 11, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Finally, we need to figure out how to do word its ability to send its tentacle into the Material Plane.   Etheral jaunt would bring the whole creature, and manifestation would imply that the tentacles are ethereal.  I am almost certain there is a precedence for this, but haven't found the creature that has it yet.




yep, and that is a tricky one indeed!  i'd say we have just about everything else figured out...  i think it might ethereal jaunt from the far realm into the ethereal plane, but thus far we have no evidence that it can jaunt into the material plane.  anyone got a clue?


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2003)

I just remembered a place I saw something similar...your very own lock lurker conversion!    

Here's what you gave it:

Partial Etherealness (Su): The stinger of the lock lurker exists wholly on the Ethereal plane. It can be materialized on the Material plane as a free action once per round, and returns to the Ethereal at the end of that round. Only creatures on the Material plane can attack the stinger, and only after the lock lurker has used a sting attack in a particular round. If the lock lurker is encountered on the Ethereal Plane, the entire creature will be visible and can be attacked. The stinger can always attack creatures on the Ethereal plane no matter where the lock lurker is. 

Venom and food eaten are held in expandable body sacs on the Ethereal plane and brought to the Material plane as needed, in the same manner as the stinger.


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2003)

(speaking of lock lurker, guess what's next in the overhaul thread).    weird... i was thinking of the lock lurker as having a similar aspect...

guess all we have to do is modify that a bit for the dharcy's anatomy.


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## Psychotic Jim (Dec 14, 2003)

If it helps at all, I did a conversion of the dharculus for 3.0E
Dharculus
Huge Outsider (Chaotic)
Hit Dice: 10d8+50 (95 hp)
Initiative: +0 
Speed: Fly 20 ft (Average), Swim 20 ft
AC: 20 (-2 size, +10 natural)
Attacks: 6 tentacle rakes +18 melee, bite +13 melee
Damage: Tentacle rakes 1d6+10, Bite 2d8+5
Face/Reach: 10 ft by 20 ft/10 ft (15 feet with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Tentacle Attachment, Improved Grab
Special Qualities: Partial ethereal jaunt, immunities
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +8
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Escape Artist +13, Hide +2, Intuit Direction +14, Listen +14, Move Silently +10, Search +13, Spot +14
Feats:  Alertness, Flyby Attack 
Climate/Terrain: Any land, aquatic or underground (With exposure to the Far Realms)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Chaotic Neutral
Advancement: 11-16 HD (Huge), 17-30 HD (Gargantuan)
	Dharculi are strange dwellers of the Ethereal Plane that are thought to have originated from the Far Realm.  When viewed on the Ethereal Plane, a dharculus as a cylindrical beast with a mass of tentacles, 5 with mouths filled with razor sharp teeth and 5 with leering eyes, on one end and a huge cavernous maw on the other end.  A dharculus can extend its tentacles into the Material Plane to catch prey and drag them into the Ethereal Plane, thus a victim is unlikely to see the whole beast until it is too late.
Combat
	A dharculus never fully manifests into the Material Plane.  It sneaks up on potential victims and manifests its tentacles and tries to grab a tasty morsel and drag it into the Ethereal Plane, where the dharculus can use its bite attack against the opponent.
	Tentacle Attachment (Ex):  A tentacle that hits a foe automatically attaches to the opponent.  Tentacles can be removed with a successful grapple check from the defender or a third party, or a tentacle can be cut off by dealing 8 points of damage to the tentacle with the final blow with a slashing weapon.
	Improved Grab:  To use this ability, a dharculus must attach three tentacles to an opponent of up to Large size.  If it gets a hold, it can use its Partial Ethereal Jaunt ability to drag its opponent into the Ethereal Plane.
	Partial Ethereal Jaunt (Su):  The main body of the Dharculus is always on the Ethereal Plane.  A dharculus can shift any and all of its tentacles into the Material Plane as a free action, and shift them back again as a move equivalent action, bringing along any opponent caught in its Improved Grab attack.  If a foe is brought into the Ethereal Plane, he or she has four rounds to “climb” the tentacles back into the Material Plane (with a successful grapple check after breaking out of the dharculus’ pin). This ability is otherwise identical with ethereal jaunt cast by a 15th level sorcerer.
	Immunites (Ex):  Immunity to all mind-influencing effects (including charms, compulsions, phantasms, and morale effects.).


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## BOZ (Dec 15, 2003)

ooh thanks, i'll compare that with what we've got so far.


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## BOZ (Dec 15, 2003)

updating the homebrew version...


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2003)

I'd say we've just about go it.  

CR 9 seems appropriate.

How about 3 tentacles lost causes it to withdraw?


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2003)

sounds good, looks like we're done here.

no LA?  and i forgot the bonuses from all-around vision.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds good, looks like we're done here.
> 
> no LA?  and i forgot the bonuses from all-around vision.




LA is not my strong suit.   I can't imagine anyone playing one of these things anyway, but you never know.    

Good catch on the all-around vision bonuses.


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## Krishnath (Dec 19, 2003)

LA should be around +10 as it is boosted somewhat by the Partial ethereal jaunt ability and it's high number of attacks.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2003)

i'll take your word on that.


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## Krishnath (Dec 19, 2003)

You might wan't to get a second opinion from Leo...


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2003)

he posted a bunch of LAs in various threads and i asked him to gather them up so i could add them on to the conversions but i haven't heard back from him... guess that's more work for me.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2003)

Found the original stats for our buddy, from Gates of Firestorm Peak.  (Note that this appears to be written with the Player’s Option rules from late 2E in mind.)  I haven’t had a good look at this yet, but see if there’s anything we should use from this version over what we have done already.  If you’re reading this after I have posted the dharculus to the CC, don’t worry; I can always edit it later.  

Dharculus

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Special
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 6 or 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: ld4 + adhesion (tentacles) or 2d10 (primary maw)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Adhesion
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Ethereal
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (30-foot long)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The dharculus is a creature native to the Far Realm. The Vast Gate has provided access to the Prime Material Plane for these dread entities, and some few now hunt in the environs of Firestorm Peak. These particularly deadly creatures hunt all other creatures that cross their paths without regard to rank or hierarchy. They possess little fear, being well protected from its prey.
The dharculus are swimmers of the Border Ethereal; however, they have a singular ability to insert their mawed tentacle ends into the Prime Material Plane. These tentacles appear as a swarm of blind eel-like creatures sliding through the very air in a deadly school. To those who can see into the Ethereal, the "eels" are merely the protruding tentacle tips of the dharculus. Following the multiple tentacles back, one would see that they come together $I a fused braid, a thick and ridged wormlike tube forming the main body of the creature. The posterior end of the cylindrical body loops back towards the front like a quetion mark, ending in an huge, drooling maw filled with razor-sharp teeth. Five of the dharculus' tentacles end irt eyes instead of manipulator maws; the entity keeps the& safely tucked into the Ethereal Plane ter search through the mists for its next victim.

Combat: A dharculus feeds DY dipping its mawed tentacle ends into the Prime Material Plane to attack and draw prey into reach of the horrible maw on the Ethereal, much as a bear scoops trout out of their normal watery environment into the alien realm (to the fish) of air. In addition to the ld4 points of damage each tentacle tip inflicts upon a successful attack, each maw also attaches itself to the prey where it hit. It takes a successful Strength/Muscle check (with a -2 penalty to the roll) to rip the tentacle off, causing another 1d4 points of damage as the teeth tear free. If a dharculus can fasten three or more tentacles onto a single victim, he or she must make a successful saving throw vs. death magic or be drawn into the Ethereal Plane in the very fast phase of the next round. Here the dharculus car bring its horrible primary maw to bear on the victim for 2d10 points of damage.  While the dharculus continues to have hold of a victim with at least three tentacles, it will continue attempting to draw the reluctant prey into the Ethereal once per round, possibly necessitating multiple saves.
A dharculus normally hunts with all six of its mawed tentacles inserted into the Prime Material Plane.  Each tentacle tip attacks as a 10-HD creature with the following stats: AC 3; MV fly 9; HD 2, hp 8; THAC0 11; #AT 1, Dmg 1d4; SA adhesion; SZ S (2-foot long).  Tentacles which take the full 8 hp of damage are severed and fall upon the floor, looking for all the world like a dead eel-creature.  On the Ethereal Plane a dharculus regenerates a damaged or severed tentacle at the rate of 2 hp every 12 hours; it will never insert an only partially regrown tentacle into the Prime Material.  A hit with a magical weapon has a 20% chance per magical plus to knock the appendage fully back into the Ethereal plane, where it takes the dharculus 4 rounds to “insert” it back through the veil to our plane of existence.
A dharculus will attack individuals or groups of creatures with its mawed tentacles, attempting to draw its chosen meal into the Ethereal Plane where it can snack in safety.  A victim who is drawn through the veil has an opportunity to attack the dharculus as it attempts to quickly kill the prey with its devastating bite.  A PC may get lucky by defeating the dharculus in its home ground; however this then leaves the PC drifting in the Border Ethereal, able to see his or her companions through the gray mist but unable to contact them.  Unless the PC has extraordinary resources, he or she is faces with being marooned, but a quick-thinking PC has a single chance: the mawed tentacles which are still inserted into the Prime Material plane.  The tentacles of a freshly killed dharculus slowly recede into the Ethereal, but a character has 4 rounds to grab one of the tentacles like a lifeline and physically pull himself or herself back into the Prime Material, as a man pulling himself free of sucking quicksand.  A successful Strength/Muscle check with a  +2 bonus on the PC’s roll indicates that the PC has successfully emerged fully into the Prime Material Plane.

Habitat/Society: These creatures have an utterly alien psychology.  Their intentions and motivations have been forged in the Far Realm, where human minds are at peril in attempting to understand.  However, regardless of other considerations, the basic motivator which drives these creatures is easily understood by beings of the Prime Material: hunger.  Dharculus never pass up an easy meal.  In fact, the creature is not above dragging creatures across the Ethereal veil just to save for later snacking.
Only one or perhaps two of these creatures are even known to have crossed over into our reality, and these exist only within Firestorm Peak.  That is not to say that more do not exist within the Far Realm.  As time passes, it seems inevitable that more will arrive, hunting the beaches of the Prime Material in relative safety from the shallow sea of the Border Ethereal.

Ecology:  It is not known if these creatures mate or merely asexually bud or fission.  If the latter of these options is true, even a single such creature could rapidly populate a new area.  However, these creatures seem to congregate near the point of their entry into this reality.  This may be because they are somehow dependent upon some particular element of their own Far Realm and need to stay near the point where leakage of this influence occurs.  If this is true, only creatures near the point of entry are in peril.  However, in the case of Firestorm Peak, this zone of influence is slowly expanding further into the Prime Material Plane.


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2004)

I think your posted version still holds up with this additional information in mind.


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## BOZ (Jan 2, 2004)

sounds good, then.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2004)

What's next?


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## BOZ (Jan 16, 2004)

i have an idea; you'll see soon.


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## BOZ (Jan 18, 2004)

Been wanting to get to these for a long, long time!  


Spanner

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 10-15
THAC0: 11 (at 10 HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 0
SPECIAL ATTACKS. See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (100'-200' long, 10'-30' wide)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 5000 (10 HD) + 1000 per HD above 10

Spanners, also called living bridges, were originally created to help guard a certain wizard's rower, but have since escaped into the wilderness.

As implied by their name, these creatures appear as large, single-span stone arch bridges, complete with rails, posts and so forth. The type of stone, stains, vine covering, and other details will be appropriate for the local environment (see below). These creatures are extremely difficult to differentiate from true bridges. Only dwarves, or persons with engineering or stonemason talents, may be able to ascertain the identity of a spanner. In this instance, a successful Intelligence or appropriate nonweapon proficiency check at a -6 penalty is required before the true nature of the bridge may be seen.

Combat: Spanners prefer not to attack, if at all possible. They are benign, even friendly, preferring to gossip and gather information rather than attack, Being curious and intelligent creatures, they will tolerate a fair amount of abuse as long as the creatures around them are talking. However, if irked, or crossed without permission, spanners are malicious and have no mercy. It the victim is near the edge of the creature (within five feet of a rail), the spanner will attempt to pitch him/her off the side; otherwise, the spanner opens a hole through itself and under the victim. In either instance, a Dexterity check at -4 is necessary to avoid being removed from the bridge. The damage from this attack will depend on the distance from the bridge to the land or water below (1d6 damage per 10' of failing, up 20d6 maximum, with additional potential for drowning if the creature is spanning a waterway). These creatures locate potential enemies by detecting their weight on its surface, or by feeling their vibrations in the ground up to 150' away.

The spanner is intelligent enough to recognize that wildlife may seek to cross the bridge, and that a talking bridge may scare the creatures away. The spanner allows itself to be used in this manner without attacking. It will not tolerate unnecessary hunting in its vicinity, if at all possible. Creatures who hunt for sport and try to cross the spanner are automatically attacked.

Spanners are made of stone, and thus, have an exceptional AC of 0. Furthermore, they suffer only half damage from pointed or edged weapons, while blunt weapons do full damage.

Spanners are also capable of using a stoneskin spell-like ability once per day, which protects them from 8 attacks.

Their Hit Dice are proportional to their length: 10 HD at 100' long, with one additional HD per 20' length, up to a maximum of 200' (15 HD). When killed, they simply cease to move, and become normal, inanimate stone bridges.

The creatures do not value treasure as we know it. Any treasure their vicinity is from the bridge's victims. Such treasure often has suffered damage as a result of a fall from the bridge, or may have been swept away by recent flooding of a river which flows under the bridge.

Habitat/Society: Spanners are curious about anything and everything. It is often possible to negotiate passage across a spanner by simply talking to it and providing gossip, news, trivia, and so forth, However, they tend to be insufferable gossips and liars.

To fit in with the local scenery, spanners, will color themselves with stains, add plant growth, assume the color of local stone, or otherwise camouflage themselves.

No one is sure how spanners were introduced to the wild. It is believed that they were originally created by a wizard's experiments with mimics, in an effort to create a creature to guard the moats and chasms outside of his tower. The spanners learned much from visitors who traveled through to see the wizard, including how to move themselves around. They form pseudopods which slowly (4 rounds) form into crude feet, which allow ponderously sluggish movement at a rate of 3. They tend to remain in one place for years, but will move if they feel the local people have found them out, or will no longer talk to them.

Spanners are constructed of stone and thus do not need to eat.  Spanners do not reproduce, and seem to have no natural limit to their lifespans.

Ecology: Spanners generally are a boon to the surrounding natural community, as they demand nothing from it and punish those who abuse it.




some preliminary stats for the spanner:

*Spanner*
Colossal Construct
Hit Dice: 10d10+80 (135 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-8 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+X
Attack: ?
Full Attack: (touch to initiate grapple?)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/20 ft ?
Special Attacks: throw, freeze (like gargoyles?)
Special Qualities: tremorsense, construct traits, damage reduction (10 or 15)/bludgeoning, stoneskin
Saves: Fort +3 Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex (low but not incredibly low), Con ---, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 26 Listen, Climb
Feats: 4

Environment: Any land 
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: ?
Alignment: Always (usually?) neutral
Advancement: 11-30 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: ---

Most spanners are 100-200 feet long and 10-30 feet wide, and can weigh more than X tons.

COMBAT

Originally found in Monstrous Compendium MC14 - Fiend Folio Appendix (1992, Tim Beach).


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2004)

First off, I'd up the HD to at least 24.  According to the Making Monsters chapter in the MM, the minimum HD for a Colossal creature is 24.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As implied by their name, these creatures appear as large, single-span stone arch bridges, complete with rails, posts and so forth. The type of stone, stains, vine covering, and other details will be appropriate for the local environment (see below). These creatures are extremely difficult to differentiate from true bridges. Only dwarves, or persons with engineering or stonemason talents, may be able to ascertain the identity of a spanner. In this instance, a successful Intelligence or appropriate nonweapon proficiency check at a -6 penalty is required before the true nature of the bridge may be seen.




How about:

Camouflage (Ex):  A creature must make a successful Knowledge (architecture or engineering) check (DC X) to notice that a spanner is anything other than a true bridge.   Dwarves may add their stonecunning bonus to this check.  An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Combat: Spanners prefer not to attack, if at all possible. They are benign, even friendly, preferring to gossip and gather information rather than attack,




Skill ranks in Diplomacy and Gather Information?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Being curious and intelligent creatures, they will tolerate a fair amount of abuse as long as the creatures around them are talking. However, if irked, or crossed without permission, spanners are malicious and have no mercy. It the victim is near the edge of the creature (within five feet of a rail), the spanner will attempt to pitch him/her off the side;




The Awesome Blow feat could account for this.  Or, borrowed from the xerfilstyx...

Toss (Ex): After a successful attack, a spanner gets a free trip attempt. If the spanner wins the opposed Strength check during the trip attempt, instead of simply knocking the opponent prone, it tosses the opponent into the air, dropping the opponent prone into any square it threatens.  This toss deals falling damage as normal for the height in addition to the damage that was done with the initital attack. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> otherwise, the spanner opens a hole through itself and under the victim. In either instance, a Dexterity check at -4 is necessary to avoid being removed from the bridge. The damage from this attack will depend on the distance from the bridge to the land or water below (1d6 damage per 10' of failing, up 20d6 maximum, with additional potential for drowning if the creature is spanning a waterway).




How's this?

Open Hole (Su):  As a standard action, a spanner may open a hole in itself, up to 20 ft by 20 ft.   Any creature in this area must succeed at a DC X Reflex save or fall, suffering falling damage as normal for the height.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> These creatures locate potential enemies by detecting their weight on its surface, or by feeling their vibrations in the ground up to 150' away.




Tremorsense 150 ft.?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Spanners are also capable of using a stoneskin spell-like ability once per day, which protects them from 8 attacks.




Stoneskin (Sp):  Once per day, a spanner can use stoneskin (caster level 8th).


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## BOZ (Jan 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> First off, I'd up the HD to at least 24.  According to the Making Monsters chapter in the MM, the minimum HD for a Colossal creature is 24.




minimum shminimum.    how often do we follow that chart?  I’d consider making it more than 10, but not higher than 20.



> Camouflage (Ex):  A creature must make a successful Knowledge (architecture or engineering) check (DC X) to notice that a spanner is anything other than a true bridge.   Dwarves may add their stonecunning bonus to this check.  An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check.




nice.  



> Skill ranks in Diplomacy and Gather Information?




ok.  No bonuses though.



> The Awesome Blow feat could account for this.  Or, borrowed from the xerfilstyx...
> 
> Toss (Ex): After a successful attack, a spanner gets a free trip attempt. If the spanner wins the opposed Strength check during the trip attempt, instead of simply knocking the opponent prone, it tosses the opponent into the air, dropping the opponent prone into any square it threatens.  This toss deals falling damage as normal for the height in addition to the damage that was done with the initital attack.




I see where you’re coming from, but the problem is that the spanner never actually strikes an opponent.  I made the suggestion above of a touch attack to initiate a grapple; a successful hold would allow a toss attack.  This may not be the best way to do it, but I’m sure we can find one.  



> Open Hole (Su):  As a standard action, a spanner may open a hole in itself, up to 20 ft by 20 ft.   Any creature in this area must succeed at a DC X Reflex save or fall, suffering falling damage as normal for the height.
> 
> Tremorsense 150 ft.?
> 
> Stoneskin (Sp):  Once per day, a spanner can use stoneskin (caster level 8th).




Cool on all that.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> minimum shminimum.    how often do we follow that chart?  I’d consider making it more than 10, but not higher than 20.




Go 20.  A stone golem is only size Large and has 14 HD.  This is a whole freakin' bridge after all.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I see where you’re coming from, but the problem is that the spanner never actually strikes an opponent.  I made the suggestion above of a touch attack to initiate a grapple; a successful hold would allow a toss attack.  This may not be the best way to do it, but I’m sure we can find one.




OK...hmmm...we'll come up with something.

Also, we probably need to add to the open hole ability that the hole cannot be created along an edge of the creature, otherwise the thorw ability is pointless.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

I'd also suggest giving them a climb speed (5 or 10 feet), simply to explain how they get into position.


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## BOZ (Jan 22, 2004)

nah, climb skill should do it (they're going to be pretty damn strong)


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

As long as it has a way to get into "bridge position", I'm happy.    

What did you think of the HD suggestion?


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## BOZ (Jan 22, 2004)

20?  yeah, i'm going to go with that.   but despite its size and need for hit points, i don't want to make it epic.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

Gathering what we've got so far...

*Spanner*
Colossal Construct
Hit Dice: 20d10+80 (190 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-8 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+31+Str bonus
Attack: ?
Full Attack: (touch to initiate grapple?)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/20 ft ?
Special Attacks: Freeze (like gargoyles?), open hole, throw
Special Qualities: Camouflage, construct traits, damage reduction (10 or 15)/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, _stoneskin_, tremorsense 150 ft.
Saves: Fort +6 Ref +6 Will +6
Abilities: Str X, Dex (low but not incredibly low), Con ---, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 46 Climb +X, Diplomacy +X, Gather Information +X, Hide -16 (for size), Listen +X
Feats: 7

Environment: Any land 
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: ?
Alignment: Always (usually?) neutral
Advancement: 21-60 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: ---

_Ahead lies a large, single-span stone arch bridge, over 100 feet long and 20 feet wide.  It is decorated with rails and posts. Many stains and a thick covering of vines seem to indicated that this bridge is quite old._

Most spanners are 100-200 feet long and 10-30 feet wide, and can weigh more than X tons.

Spanners speak Common and ?.

COMBAT

Open Hole (Su): As a standard action, a spanner may open a hole in itself, up to 20 ft by 20 ft. Any creature in this area must succeed at a DC X Reflex save or fall, suffering falling damage as normal for the height.  A hole may not be opened in a space at the edge of the creature; it must have at least a 5 ft. square on every side.  Creatures near the edge are subject to its throw ability, however.

Throw (?):  ?.

Camouflage (Ex): A creature must make a successful Knowledge (architecture or engineering) check (DC X) to notice that a spanner is anything other than a true bridge. Dwarves may add their stonecunning bonus to this check. An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. 

Stoneskin (Sp): Once per day, a spanner can use stoneskin (caster level 8th).

Originally found in Monstrous Compendium MC14 - Fiend Folio Appendix (1992, Tim Beach).


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

i'm not going to call that "open hole".  

and i don't think it should have any visual senses - just listen and tremorsense.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm not going to call that "open hole".




That's probably a good idea.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> and i don't think it should have any visual senses - just listen and tremorsense.




That's fine.  I was just listing the construct standards as part of the "working copy".


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

To simulate the –6 Intelligence check penalty, perhaps we should give the spanner a Disguise and/or Hide skill and add maybe add the bonus to the DC for Camouflage?

I have no idea if this is well-written or not…

Throw (Ex): A spanner that grapples an opponent can attempt to throw it over the edge. If the spanner wins the opposed Strength check, it tosses the opponent into the air, dropping the opponent prone into any square it threatens. This toss deals falling damage as normal for the height, and if the opponent falls into water it may be at risk of drowning.

and:

Create Opening (Su): As a standard action, a spanner may open a hole in itself, up to a 10-foot square. Any creature in this area must succeed at a DC X Reflex save or fall through the hole, suffering falling damage as normal for the height. A hole may not be opened in a space at the edge of the creature; it must have at least a 5-foot square on every side. The hole seals itself up automatically at the end of a round, if there is nothing obstructing the opening.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> To simulate the –6 Intelligence check penalty, perhaps we should give the spanner a Disguise and/or Hide skill and add maybe add the bonus to the DC for Camouflage?




It'll need a heck of alot of ranks of Hide to overcome its -16 size penalty and low Dex.   The Disguise check could work.  In fact, here's the way the mimic does something similar:

Mimic Shape (Ex): A mimic can assume the general shape of any object that fills roughly 150 cubic feet (5 feet by 5 feet by 6 feet), such as a massive chest, a stout bed, or a wide door frame. The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though. A mimic’s body is hard and has a rough texture, no matter what appearance it might present. Anyone who examines the mimic can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the mimic’s Disguise check. Of course, by this time it is generally far too late.

Skills: A mimic has a +8 racial bonus on Disguise checks.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Throw (Ex): A spanner that grapples an opponent can attempt to throw it over the edge. If the spanner wins the opposed Strength check, it tosses the opponent into the air, dropping the opponent prone into any square it threatens. This toss deals falling damage as normal for the height, and if the opponent falls into water it may be at risk of drowning.




With what will it grapple?   Are you going to give it a slam attack?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Create Opening (Su): As a standard action, a spanner may open a hole in itself, up to a 10-foot square. Any creature in this area must succeed at a DC X Reflex save or fall through the hole, suffering falling damage as normal for the height. A hole may not be opened in a space at the edge of the creature; it must have at least a 5-foot square on every side. The hole seals itself up automatically at the end of a round, if there is nothing obstructing the opening.




Nice wording.  I like that you added it sealing itself up.


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

no, slam attack doesn't sound right.  note the original description.  it did have the spanner using an attack roll to throw opponents, and its damage/attack is 0.  therefore, i think it should be a touch attack which works the same way.  maybe instead of grapple then, if it succeeds on a touch attack you roll a reflex save or get thrown?  (and it will almost always succeed on a touch attack...)


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> It'll need a heck of alot of ranks of Hide to overcome its -16 size penalty and low Dex.   The Disguise check could work.  In fact, here's the way the mimic does something similar:
> 
> Mimic Shape (Ex): A mimic can assume the general shape of any object that fills roughly 150 cubic feet (5 feet by 5 feet by 6 feet), such as a massive chest, a stout bed, or a wide door frame. The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though. A mimic’s body is hard and has a rough texture, no matter what appearance it might present. Anyone who examines the mimic can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the mimic’s Disguise check. Of course, by this time it is generally far too late.
> 
> Skills: A mimic has a +8 racial bonus on Disguise checks.




you're right; i don't know what i was thinking with Hide.  maybe just the Disguise bonus (+6? +8?  depends on its Cha score i guess) with the current Camouflage description will suffice, modified with a bit from the mimic power.

Edit:  i know, instead of "untrained Knowledge check" we can say "Spot vs. Disguise."


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

That sounds like a good plan.


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## Krishnath (Jan 28, 2004)

I have a question, that may, or may not sound stupid. How in hades do they reproduce? I can't for the life of me imagine any sane spellcaster creating more of these...


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## BOZ (Jan 28, 2004)

they don't.    "Spanners do not reproduce, and seem to have no natural limit to their lifespans."  all the ones in existence were built.


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## BOZ (Jan 28, 2004)

so like this?

Camouflage (Ex): A creature must make a successful Knowledge (architecture or engineering) check (DC X) to notice that a spanner is anything other than a true bridge. Dwarves may add their stonecunning bonus to this check. Anyone who examines the spanner can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the spanner’s Disguise check.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

I like it.


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## BOZ (Jan 28, 2004)

good.    now how about the Knowledge check DC, what would we base that on?  methinks it should be easier than the spot vs. disguise DC, since you're talking about someone who is specialized in identifying masonry.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

Here are some factors for comparison:

Knowledge Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

Weakened Ceilings:  A weakened ceiling can be spotted by a successful Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check (DC 20). A dwarf can make such a check if he simply passes within 10 feet of a weakened ceiling.

So, I'd say DC 15 or 20 seems the most appropriate.


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## Krishnath (Jan 28, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> they don't.    "Spanners do not reproduce, and seem to have no natural limit to their lifespans."  all the ones in existence were built.




In other words, they're a dying breed.... 

They are interresting though.


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## BOZ (Jan 28, 2004)

good ol' 15 will probably work here, as it should be more easily identifiable by someone who knows what to look for.


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

Good ol' 15, ever-reliable.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

Gave some thought to ability scores last night.  How about these:

Str 35-40, Dex 6-7, Con ---, Int 10, Wis 10-14, Cha 13-17


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

Looking at some comparable (stone-like constructs) creatures: 

Stone Colossus (Colossal):  Str 70, Dex 5, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Stone Golem, Greater (Large):  Str 37, Dex 7, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Juggernaut (Huge):  Str 31, Dex 3, Con --, Int --, Wis 15, Cha 16
Death Hurler (Huge; from Dragon 309):  Str 26, Dex 18, Con --, Int --, Wis 12, Cha 1

I'd say that Strength should be more in the 50-60 range, and Dexterity 3-7.  Considering its a bridge, I'd vote for the low end of the Dex range.  I think your mental stats are good.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

i don't think it needs to be that strong.  it's not going to hit anything, after all.  maybe i'm wrong.


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

Yeah, but it does have to hold itself in bridge position for long periods of time.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

maybe so, but given how many tons it is likely to weigh, that might just put it out of the ratings altogehter.  

let's look at it this way.  a creature would have to have a 40 Str to carry 1 ton as a light load, based on the carrying capacity chart in the PHB.  and that's just one ton.  adding multiples of 10 results in that number quadrupling, so roughly: 50 Str = 4 tons, 60 Str = 16 tons, 70 Str = 64 tons, and so on.

so, how many tons do you think a 100-ft long stone bridge would weigh?


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so, how many tons do you think a 100-ft long stone bridge would weigh?




Lots?    

OK, it'll definitely take supernatural forces to keep it in place.  I still think it should be at least 10 points higher than a Large stone golem.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

also, i'm going with 5 for Dex.  check out the PHB in the front, where it gives examples of what would have each ability score.  "Colossal animated object" gets a 4-5 Dex.


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

Since when do you follow the examples?    

5 sounds fine, though.

You know, lesser variants of the spanner would be cool.  I know that it is beyond the scope of conversions, but I'm thinking that a wood bridge (possibly covered) and a rope bridge variant would be fun.   Imagine Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom's bridge scene...now imagine if the bridge were sentient.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> OK, it'll definitely take supernatural forces to keep it in place.  I still think it should be at least 10 points higher than a Large stone golem.




which would be 39, and in the range of what i was thinking.    i made Wis 14 and Cha 17.  are those too high?


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since when do you follow the examples?




when they make sense to what i was thinking, and when they sound like they would work with what i want to do.  



> You know, lesser variants of the spanner would be cool.  I know that it is beyond the scope of conversions, but I'm thinking that a wood bridge (possibly covered) and a rope bridge variant would be fun.   Imagine Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom's bridge scene...now imagine if the bridge were sentient.




totally cool.


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

Maybe I'll whip 'em up in Homebrews when we finish this guy up.

Cheap plug:  While you're here, check out the H'calos thread.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

no problem.    posting in homebrews now...


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

Here is a potentially relevant link for determing its weight:

http://www.cei.org/gencon/025,01355.cfm  (36,000 tons)

For Create Opening, it would seem the save DC should be Dexterity-based.  ("Movement, movement restrictions, hitting with a missile, entanglement. Example: entangle.")   However, since its Dex sucks, we might want to go with something else.    

I think "Usually neutral" would work best for its alignment.


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## BOZ (Jan 30, 2004)

that's why i think Cha might be best.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2004)

I was using my circular thinking ability.    

Circular Thinking (Ex):   As a full-round action, Shade can arrive at the same conclusion BOZ arrived at previously in the encounter.


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## BOZ (Jan 30, 2004)

Lol!


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## BOZ (Jan 30, 2004)

i have the same skill as a matter of fact.


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## BOZ (Jan 30, 2004)

The issue I keep coming back to is, how do we initiate the throw attack?  Grapple/improved grab is probably out, since it has no real appendages.  I would say that it can touch (any maybe more than one opponent in a round, if all are near the same edge) an opponent.  This attack would be almost always effective, since it would be able to touch anything not heavily magically effected.  I think it would require a saving throw (Reflex?), which would likely have a very high Strength-based DC.

Other than that, I can just copy some of the text on how to operate the throw attack from what shade posted above.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2004)

Here's something that might help.   The death hurler, from Dragon #309, is basically a giant siege tower.   It has no melee attacks (or appendages).  However, if anyone tries to climb it, they have to make an opposed grapple check or be thrown off.   So there is precedent for a creature with no melee attacks making opposed grapple checks.

So, the spanner could make a touch attack (almost guaranteed success) to initiate a grapple.  If it succeeds, it could make throw the creature off.  Perhaps a Reflex save, with failure resulting in going over the edge, and success indicating the character is prone in its square on the spanner?   I'd also state that because it lacks appendages, the spanner cannot maintain a grapple.


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## BOZ (Jan 30, 2004)

hey!  see, i was right the first time.


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

updating in homebrews.


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## BOZ (Feb 2, 2004)

about feats.  because of the spanner's physical limitations, there are really only so many feats it can take.  how about these (or at least some of them): Alertness, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Investigator, Iron Will, Negotiator, Persuasive


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## Orius (Feb 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> about feats.  because of the spanner's physical limitations, there are really only so many feats it can take.  how about these (or at least some of them): Alertness, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Investigator, Iron Will, Negotiator, Persuasive




Well, it's basically a big bridge, right?  I'd say no to Improved Init, because to my mind it seems like something very big and ponderous.  Some big like that would probobly be kind of slow, and Improved Init doesn't really seem to fit it.   Alertness, Endurance and Iron Will sound good.  It seems like something big and really tough, so how about Great Fortitude and/or Toughness?


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

Actually, it is not uncommon for large, cumbersome creatures to take Improved Initiative.  In fact, it is suggested to give monsters Improved Initiative to account for being very alert and not easily surprised.   Therefore, I think it is appropriate for the spanner.

As for Toughness, I'd never give this to a high level creature.  3 hp are a drop in the bucket for a 20 HD creature.  

I do like Great Fortitude and the other saving throw feats.   The spanner has relatively poor saves for its HD, so I'd vote we give it Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will as well.

I like Negotiator better than the other "+2 to two skills" feats, since it would seem to use Diplomacy and Sense Motive much more frequently than Search or Intimidate.

So to summarize, I'd recommend Alertness, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Negotiator.   If one of its abilities ends up with a low DC, I'd swap Ability Focus for one of the saving throw boost feats.


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## BOZ (Feb 2, 2004)

would great fortitude be appropriate for something without a Con score?


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

Yes, there is precedence.  Both the hunefer (ELH) and ulgurstasta (FF) are undead and have the Great Fortitude feat.

I see the "+2 to X save" feats as being most appropriate for the critters lacking in those areas.   Lightning Reflexes seems to be a way to explain the "very alert, ponderous creature".  Iron Will explains the "so dumb they are hard to mind control" creatures, and Great Fortitude explains the "lacks health, but is unnaturally hardy" creatures.  Obviously, they can benefit any creature, though.


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## BOZ (Feb 4, 2004)

well i'll be.  

i'm going with this set for feats then: Ability Focus (either create opening or throw), Alertness, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Negotiator.

for skill ranks, how about: Bluff 5, Climb 2, Diplomacy 6, Disguise 6, Gather Information 5, Handle Animal 4, Knowledge (any two) 4, Listen 4, Sense Motive 5


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> for skill ranks, how about: Bluff 5, Climb 2, Diplomacy 6, Disguise 6, Gather Information 5, Handle Animal 4, Knowledge (any two) 4, Listen 4, Sense Motive 5




I think you are short 1 skill rank.  I'd recommend adding it to Sense Motive.

Based on these ranks and its ability scores, feats, synergy and racial bonuses, its skills line would look like...

Bluff +8, Climb +16, Diplomacy +11, Disguise +15 (+17 acting), Gather Information +8, Handle Animal +8, Hide -19, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (any two) +4, Listen +6, Sense Motive +10, Spot +4

Upon further review, I'd remove Endurance from the feat list.   Since its a construct, its immune to everything the Endurance feat provides bonuses against (nonlethal damage, suffocation, etc.)   So I suppose add Persuasive back in, or give it Ability Focus in both abilities.


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

sounds cool; updating.  

CR 17?


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

17 sounds about right.


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

updating in homebrews again.


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

DR: 10 or 15/bludgeoning

Space Reach: 30 ft/20 ft – BUT would it even have a reach?  And wouldn’t it simply take up a space on the map equal to its size?

Touch attack as both Attack and Full attack?  Would that be: Touch +29 melee touch (grapple)?

Treasure: None?  Or standard for incidental?

Alignment: Always or Usually neutral?

Did we ever figure out how to best determine its tonnage?

Create opening and Throw attacks would have Charisma-based for save DC?

Throw: victims get a Reflex save or other?  How many squares away could the victim get tossed?


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> DR: 10 or 15/bludgeoning




I think 10 will work.  The greater stone golem (CR 16) has a 10 before the slash.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Space Reach: 30 ft/20 ft – BUT would it even have a reach?  And wouldn’t it simply take up a space on the map equal to its size?




The problem is, if you don't give it reach, it draws an attack of opportunity every time it makes an attack.  Maybe give it 5 ft. reach?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Touch attack as both Attack and Full attack?  Would that be: Touch +29 melee touch (grapple)?




+15 BAB + 14 Str -8 size = +21 melee touch.   I'd use the same for both Attack and Full attack.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Treasure: None?  Or standard for incidental?




I'd give it incidental.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Alignment: Always or Usually neutral?




I vote "usually".  I like the idea of an evil bridge from time to time.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Did we ever figure out how to best determine its tonnage?




Not really.  The closest I came up with was one link above.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Create opening and Throw attacks would have Charisma-based for save DC?




Yes.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Throw: victims get a Reflex save or other?  How many squares away could the victim get tossed?




I like Reflex.  One square should be sufficient to throw them over the edge, right?


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

Ok, I’ll give it a 5’ reach then.  But what about space?  100??

Forgot the size penalty to attacks – duh!  Would I list a “damage” in parenthesis, or just say Touch +21 melee touch

I’ll figure out the tonnage when I get a sec to look at it.


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Ok, I’ll give it a 5’ reach then.  But what about space?  100??




Yeah, I can't really see any way around 100' space.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Forgot the size penalty to attacks – duh!  Would I list a “damage” in parenthesis, or just say Touch +21 melee touch.




Hmm...maybe touch +21 melee touch (0) or touch +21 melee touch (attempt grapple)?   The roper does no damage with its strand, and lists its attack as:   Strand +11 ranged touch (drag).


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

i put (grab).


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

Perfect.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

how many touch attacks should we allow per round?  i say more than one might be good, but it may not be absolutely necessary.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here is a potentially relevant link for determing its weight:
> 
> http://www.cei.org/gencon/025,01355.cfm  (36,000 tons)




looks like the bridge they're discussing there is a lot bigger than a spanner, though.  that bridge is 72 million pounds.  

how about this.  "A greater stone golem is 18 feet tall and weights around 32,000 pounds."  so... if a greater stone golem was 100 feet tall it would weigh 177,777 pounds?


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how about this. "A greater stone golem is 18 feet tall and weights around 32,000 pounds." so... if a greater stone golem was 100 feet tall it would weigh 177,777 pounds?



Well, round it to 180,000.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

That'll work.   I'd round it like Wippit said, or round it down to 175,000.

Another thing I was thinking about last night...what happens when a spanner dies?   Does it become an inanimate bridge, or does it fall?  This might be worth addressing in the flavor text, as it could have an impact on characters standing upon it at the time of its demise.


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## Mortis (Feb 6, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Another thing I was thinking about last night...what happens when a spanner dies? Does it become an inanimate bridge, or does it fall? This might be worth addressing in the flavor text, as it could have an impact on characters standing upon it at the time of its demise.



How about something along the lines of

"...the bridge begins shake/convulse? and fall/crumble? apart..." and give it a d6? rounds before it breaks up completely.

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

Mortis said:
			
		

> How about something along the lines of
> 
> "...the bridge begins shake/convulse? and fall/crumble? apart..." and give it a d6? rounds before it breaks up completely.
> 
> ...




I like it.   Give the characters a chance to run, but make 'em attempt Balance checks.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

well, the original text did say "When killed, they simply cease to move, and become normal, inanimate stone bridges." but if you really, really like it to be destroyed instead, i guess we can work that out.  

also, it’s not necessary to list “Hide –19” is it?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

Oops...I missed that in the original text.    I'd leave it as is, since they did account for that.   Individual DMs might want to make it fall apart instead.

As for Hide, many of the large monsters list their negative Hide skills, probably just to remind DMs that they have a penalty.  You could probably leave it out if you want.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

i think i will.    what could possibly be a good reason for it to hide anyway?  it wants to be seen and interacted with!  

ok, updating!  we done with another one?


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how many touch attacks should we allow per round?  i say more than one might be good, but it may not be absolutely necessary.




duh, forgot about this too


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

I'd limit it to one touch attack.   Since it only grapples to throw an opponent, and cannot maintain a hold, and throw is a standard action, it has no use for additional attacks, right?   Unless it somehow misses, and I seriously doubt it would miss on a touch attack very often with a +20 attack bonus!


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

so we done then?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

You forgot the "Spanners as Characters" section.  (Just kidding!)

I think he's done.


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## Krishnath (Feb 7, 2004)

It is done, what is next?


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## BOZ (Feb 7, 2004)

nothing is lined up... how about taking a look at page 1 and then make some requests.


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 7, 2004)

How about the Spirits?

Spirit, Forest - Uthraki (Spbd)
Spirit, Forest - Wood Man (Spbd)
Spirit, Ice - Orglash (Spbd)
Spirit, Rock - Thomil (Spbd)


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## BOZ (Feb 8, 2004)

hmm... weren't some of them in Unapproachable East?


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## Shade (Feb 8, 2004)

Linnorms.  Definitely linnorms.    

And yes, most of those spirits were in UE.  All but the Wood Man.


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

nah, linnorms are dragons and you know how much my lazy-@$$ likes to do dragons.    but, if krishnath doesn't have the stats for them, i can furnish them for him...


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## Orius (Feb 9, 2004)

If you're interested, I know I converted some of the monsters from the Annuals to 3.0.  I don't remember how many, I'll have to go check.  But it could make a good starting point for some conversions.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2004)

Ahh...but linnorms don't have age categories (at least not in 3E), so we should be able to do 'em and you can post 'em with no difficulty.


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## Krishnath (Feb 9, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> nah, linnorms are dragons and you know how much my lazy-@$$ likes to do dragons.    but, if krishnath doesn't have the stats for them, i can furnish them for him...



Gimme, gimme, gimme!  And add the amber, brine, jacint, jade, and pearl dragons as well 

As for requests:

Genie, Tasked, Administrator*
Genie, Tasked, Deceiver
Genie, Tasked, Harim Servant
Genie, Tasked, Messenger
Genie, Tasked, Miner
Genie, Tasked, Oathbinder

* I actually have a conversion I made of the tasked administrator, if you are interrested?


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> If you're interested, I know I converted some of the monsters from the Annuals to 3.0.  I don't remember how many, I'll have to go check.  But it could make a good starting point for some conversions.




Sure!  If they’re posted somewhere, give us a link.  If not, just list what you’ve done – or make a new thread in the Homebrews forum and post them there.


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Ahh...but linnorms don't have age categories (at least not in 3E), so we should be able to do 'em and you can post 'em with no difficulty.




Well, golly!  They sure don’t have age categories in 3E.  strange, because the 2E linnorms (at least the ones in MC annual 1) do!  Well, I would not be averse to converting the remaining linnorms into 3E without age categories, if that’s what you want to see.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Well, golly!  They sure don’t have age categories in 3E.  strange, because the 2E linnorms (at least the ones in MC annual 1) do!  Well, I would not be averse to converting the remaining linnorms into 3E without age categories, if that’s what you want to see.




YES!  YES!  and, um...YES!


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

okay!   i'll make it happen ASAP, most likely sometime this week.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2004)

Sweetrock n' roll.


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

before we get started actually converting them, some Linnorm observations:

The 3 linnorms in the MM2 had the same HD as a base linnorm from MCA1.  therefore, to make things easy on us, we may as well make the remaining linnorms with their base-HD as well.

The only real exception we might want to consider would be the Midgard linnorm.  It is probably the offspring of the Midgard Serpent, and we might want to consider it an epic creature.  Corpse Tearer was originally a unique dragon as well, but he was changed into a type of linnorm instead in the MM2.  The Midgard Linnorm had 25 HD, but was 500 feet (!) long.

The remaining 6 linnorms would be as follows:

Flame – 20 HD, Gargantuan
Forest – 11 HD, Huge
Frost – 15 HD, Gargantuan
Land – 13 HD, Gargantuan
Rain – 10 HD, Huge
Sea – 13 HD, Gargantuan


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2004)

Check out the swamp linnorm for inspiration as well:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030822a

Regarding the Midgard linnorm, perhaps we could convert the Midgard Serpent as well, and then tie them together?   I think you had it up for conversion in the Epic thread.  Maybe after the titans?


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2004)

i could check it out if i wasn't at work.


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## Krishnath (Feb 10, 2004)

Damn, no comments to my other post... (feels rejected).


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2004)

hmm, check out the post i'm about to make in the "thanks guys" thread...


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2004)

As promised, I posted a rope spanner in homebrews.


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

cool.  i'll start really having a look at the linnorms tomorrow.


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## Krishnath (Feb 13, 2004)

Heh, lots of conversions over these next couple of days then, eh?

(Btw, I would still like the 2E stats for the amber, brine, jacint, jade, and pearl dragons, so I can add them to my to do list.)


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

will see what i can do krish.  shouldn't be a problem though.

which linnorms would you all like to see done first?


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2004)

Either the rain, flame, or frost.  Unless the midgard is up for grabs, then I'd vote for that one first.


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

not sure yet how to proceed with the midgard, but if you prefer we can make that our first part of the project.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2004)

It sounds challenging, so let's give it a try.


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

found some linnorm conversions (and mist wolf, and other monsters) here:  http://members.tripod.com/~theguild/DandD3emonsters.html


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## Krishnath (Feb 15, 2004)

I suggest we wait with the Midgard Linnorm until we have converted the Midgard Serpent. As for which linnorm to do first, Flame, Frost, or Rain would do nicely, but any are good.


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## Orius (Feb 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Sure!  If they’re posted somewhere, give us a link.  If not, just list what you’ve done – or make a new thread in the Homebrews forum and post them there.




Posted?  Not with my laziness.  

i'm missing a couple of them, but I have my write up for the gnasher and jacinth dragon from MCA1 here.   It's pretty much just the raw stats, no descriptive text or anything like that, but it should be a good start.


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## BOZ (Feb 16, 2004)

ok, we'll hold off on midgy until we get his poppa done.  

will start the other ones soon...


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

Fair enough.


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## BOZ (Feb 28, 2004)

took m'sweet time, but here it is!  we'll start with the biggest baddest one...

Dragon #183:

Linnorm, Flame
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1

ARMOR CLASS: -4 (base)
MOVEMENT: 24, Fl 40 (B)
HIT DICE: 20 (base)
THAC0: 4 (at 20 HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws/1 bite + special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 3d6/3d6/3d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable
SIZE: G (40’ at base)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: Variable

Flame linnorms are the most beautiful of the Norse dragons and perhaps the most rare. They live to bend others to their will and to accumulate wealth. Adept at magic, even the youngest of the flame linnorms can master spells.
Upon hatching, the scales of a flame linnorm are as black as unused coals. By the time a linnorm reaches the juvenile stage, the scales have faded to a soft, dull gray, the shade of ash. At this stage the linnorm is sometimes confused with gray linnorms. However, when the linnorm reaches adulthood, its scales become vibrant, starting with a glowing orange in the young adult stage and reaching a pulsing scarlet by the time it is a wyrm. Adult and older linnorms appear as a mass of fire when they walk, their scales shifting, seeming like flames lapping over the creature’s body. Great wyrms are said to look like living fireballs.
Flame linnorms speak their own language and can communicate with all other Norse dragons. In addition, a very young linnorm has a 20% chance to pick up human tongues. The percentage chance to gain this ability increases 10% per age category of the linnorm until the wyrm stage, when it is certain to possess this skill.

Combat: Flame linnorms attack nonintelligent creatures only for food, These great dragons reserve their full fury for Viking ships, castles, and bands of adventurers laden down with chests and bundles. In combat, a flame linnorm prefers to attack from above where it has a good vantage point and a better chance to escape a dangerous situation. It almost always attacks first with its spells, hoping to take down its targets without damaging any valuables. If, however, its adversaries prove too staunch, the linnorm continues with its breath weapon and magical fire abilities. It fights with its claws and bite only if it has no choice, as the linnorm fears close combat could harm its beautiful scales.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: A flame linnorm has two breath weapons that cause equal damage. One is a cloud of hot ashes 90’ long, 70’ wide, and 40’ deep. The second is a stream of flame 5’ wide at the linnorm’s mouth and 110’ long. The flame linnorm casts spells and uses magical abilities at 9th level, plus any combat modifier. From birth, a flame linnorm is immune to nonmagical fire. As the linnorm ages, it gains other abilities: very young—immune to magical fire-based attacks, plus heat metal (three times a day); juvenile— pyrotechnics and produce fire (three times each a day); adult—fireball (at will every three rounds); old— fire charm and fire trap (three times each a day); venerable— flame strike and wall of fire (twice each a day); great wyrm— fire seeds and firestorm (once each a day).

Habitat/Society: Flame linnorms are loners, making their homes as deep within the earth as possible in caverns that can accommodate their huge forms and even larger piles of treasure. The linnorms do not hate other flame linnorms or other breeds of linnorms. However, they choose to isolate themselves, not wanting to risk the chance that other linnorms might steal their wealth. The linnorms frequently inventory their treasure to make sure every piece is accounted for. Magical treasures are especially prized, and the linnorms will spend long hours trying to discover what those treasures do. Flame linnorms that master the use of magical items use those items in battle or to charm or enslave humans and demihumans. These captives help the linnorm acquire more treasure.
Flame linnorms memorize every inch of their territory and guard it zealously. There is a 25% chance for a flame linnorm that has attained venerable age or greater to have 1-4 fire elementals guarding its lair. Sages are uncertain whether the elementals are summoned by magic the linnorms have acquired or whether they willingly serve the linnorm in exchange for treasure.
Flame linnorms mate every 30 years, then separate. The female is left to lay its eggs on its own, and she abandons them as soon as the young linnorms hatch.

Ecology: Flame linnorms have been known to eat herd animals, trees, and the very earth. However, their favorite food is in the form of any object on fire. These linnorms sometimes set sections of a forest ablaze just to dine.


MCA1:

Dragon, Linnorm, Flame

CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Any land
FREQUENCY:	Very rare
ORGANIZATION:	Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil

NO. APPEARING:	1
ARMOR CLASS: -4 (base)
MOVEMENT: 24, Fl 39(B)
HIT DICE: 20 (base)
THAC0: 1 (base)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 plus special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3d6(x2)/3d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: G (40' base length)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: See below

Flame linnorms, the most beautiful of the Norse dragons and perhaps the most rare, live to bend others to their will and to accumulate wealth.

The scales of a hatchling are black, but they fade to a soft, dull gray by the juvenile stage (when the flame is often confused with gray linnorms.) The scales become vibrant, glowing orange in the young adult, and pure scarlet in the wyrm. Adult and older linnorms appear as masses of fire when they walk, and great wyrms are said to look like fireballs.

Flames speak their own language and can communicate with all other Norse dragons. Very young linnorms have a 20% chance to pick up human tongues, and the percentage chance increases 10% per age category.

Combat: In combat a flame linnorm prefers to attack from above, almost always striking first with spells, hoping to take down its targets without damaging any valuables. It continues if necessary with its breath weapons and magical fire abilities, fighting with claws and bite only if it has no other choice.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: A flame linnorm has two breath weapons, inflicting equal damage. One is a cloud of hot ashes 90 feet long, 70 feet wide, and 40 feet deep. The other is a 5-foot-wide, 110-foot-long stream of flame. The linnorm wields magic abilities at 9th level plus its combat modifier.

All flames are immune to nonmagical fire. As they age, they gain other abilities: very young-immunity to magical fire, plus heat metal (three times per day); juvenile - pyrotechnics and produce fire (each three times per day); adult - fireball (every three rounds); old - fire charm and fire trap (each three times per day); venerable - flame strike and wall of fire (each twice per day); great wyrm - fire seeds and firestorm (each once per day).

Habitat/Society: Flame linnorms attack nonintelligent creatures only for food.  They are loners, making their homes in deep caverns that accommodate their huge forms and even larger piles of treasure. They don't hate other linnorms, but they choose to isolate themselves, not wanting to risk the theft of their cherished wealth. They regularly inventory their hoard, and magical treasures are especially prized – they spend long hours trying to discover what those items do. Flame linnorms use their magical items in battle or to enslave humans and demihumans, who help the linnorm acquire yet more treasure. Flames memorize every inch of their territory and guard it zealously.  Also, there's a 25% chance for a flame linnorm of venerable or greater age to have 1d4 fire elementals guarding its lair. Sages are uncertain whether the elementals are summoned by magic or whether they willingly serve the linnorm in exchange for treasure.

Flame linnorms mate every 30 years, then separate. The female is left to lay eggs on her own, and she abandons the young as soon as they hatch.

Ecology: Flame linnorms eat herd animals, trees, and the very earth. However, their favorite food is any object on fire. These creatures sometimes set sections of forest ablaze just to dine.



some preliminary stats for the flame linnorm:

*Linnorm, Flame Linnorm*
Gargantuan Dragon (Fire)
Hit Dice: 20d12+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares), fly 100 ft (good)
Armor Class: X (-4 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d4+X)
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (3d6+X) and bite +X melee (3d10+X) and tail slap +X melee (X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapons, crush X, spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: blindsight 120 ft, DR X/X, immunities, keen senses, SR X
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 17, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 207
Feats: 7

Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Always? neutral evil
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X


A flame linnorm is 40 feet long and weighs

A flame linnorm can speak Dragon

COMBAT



Originally found in Dragon Magazine #183 (“The Vikings’ Dragons,” July 1992, Jean Rabe), and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).


just for reference purposes, this image contains the ageing tables (slightly different) from both sources.


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## Krishnath (Feb 28, 2004)

first off, increase the HD by 1. It may seem trivial, but all the greater dragons got a slight HD bump between 2nd and 3rd edition (I know, cause I checked ).

It's natural armor bonus should be 20 (or 19 if you decide against the HD bump).

As for the abilities, going by the table in MM2, it should have:

Str 35, Dex 10, and Con 25.

As it allready has Int 17, I suggest we give it Wis 24, and Cha 23, making it on par with other types of linnorms.


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2004)

Does the standard 3E linnorm appear to have all the powers of a great wyrm 2E linnorm?


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Spell resistance equals 11 + CR for all the other linnorms.​​ 
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Linnorms appear to have blindsense rather than blindsight now.[/font]​ 
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Breath Weapon (Su):* A flame linnorm has two breath weapons, a X-foot line of flame and a X-foot cone of hot ashes. It may use either breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds. Both attacks deal XdX points of fire damage, half on a successful Reflex save (DC X). The save DC is Constitution-based. [/font]​ 
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Crush (Ex):* A flying flame linnorm can land on opponents three or more sizes smaller than itself as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the flame linnorm's body. Each creature in the affected area must succeed at a Reflex save (DC X) or be pinned, automatically taking X points of bludgeoning damage. The save DC is Constitution-based. Thereafter, if the flame linnorm chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. While pinned, the opponent takes crush damage each round.[/font]​ 
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Tail Sweep (Ex):* A flame linnorm can sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects creatures four or more size categories smaller than the linnorm within a 20-foot-radius half-circle centered on the linnorm's rear. Each affected creature that fails a Reflex save (DC X half) takes X points of damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.[/font]​ 
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Keen Senses (Ex):* A flame linnorm sees four times as well as a human in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision with a range of 120 feet.[/font]​ 
[/font]


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2004)

I think I’ll keep the HD the same.  The standard 3E linnorm has the same HD as an age 4 (i.e., base) from 2E.  whether or not it has the same powers, I have not studied that far.

I went with krish’s ability scores, giving us this updated statblock:

*Linnorm, Flame Linnorm*
Gargantuan Dragon (Fire)
Hit Dice: 20d12+140 (270 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares), fly 100 ft (good)
Armor Class: 25 (-4 size, +19 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+44
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d4+X)
Full Attack: 2 claws +28 melee (3d6+12) and bite +23 melee (3d10+6) and tail slap +23 melee (X+6)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/15 ft ?
Special Attacks: Breath weapons, crush X, spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: blindsense 120 ft, DR X/X, immunities, keen senses, SR X
Saves: Fort +19 Ref +12 Will +19
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 17, Wis 24, Cha 23
Skills: 207
Feats: 7


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## Krishnath (Mar 1, 2004)

DR 20/epic?

I just realised something, this is Glaurung with wings!


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

Here's the DR of the existing 3E linnorms (post-3.5 conversion guide) for comparison:

Corpse Tearer (28 HD):  20/magic
Dread (20 HD):  15/magic
Gray (13 HD):  10/magic
Swamp (22 HD):  10/cold iron

Personally, I like epic or cold iron DR much better for these mighty creatures than lame ol' magic.   So I'm onboard for either 10/cold iron or maybe 10/epic.  20/epic seems a bit too good, considering the relative power level (20 HD).

And good call...it is Glaurung with wings.


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2004)

i looked it up in the conversion booklet:  the linnorms under 3.5 should have DR 15 or 20/magic.


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

True, but the swamp linnorm is the first linnorm created completely 3.5.   So we should have a little "wiggle room" on the DR issue...at least, cold iron should be an option.


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2004)

you posted while i was posting.    how about "DR 20/magic or cold iron" ?


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

Hmmm...that still translates to "I hit it with my +1 plain ol' steel weapon every time".   

I'll see your DR 20/magic or cold iron and raise you one DR 10/cold iron or DR/5 magic _and _cold iron.


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2004)

i take that bet and raise it to DR 10/ magic and cold iron.


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

I call.   

[Monster conversion poker is fun.]


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## Krishnath (Mar 2, 2004)

Well, as it has the same nymber of HD as the Dread, but will be more powerful overall, I say go with 15/magic and cold iron in this case, 20/epic was a little over the top anyway


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## BOZ (Mar 2, 2004)

You’re bluffing, I hold all the cards.   

Heheh, DR 10/ magic and cold iron isn’t unreasonable is it?    what of krish’s suggestion to go with 15?


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2004)

I'd stick with 10/magic and cold iron.   15 would be much better than the swamp linnorm, which is a more powerful linnorm.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

Here's some basic linnorm information that may help us with conversions of the remaining linnorms.

All linnorms have:

Spell Resistance = CR + 11.
Blindsense 60 ft.
Spells and spell-like abilities.
Fly and swim speeds.
Advancement ranges only within the same size category.
Speak Draconic and Abyssal.
Ability scores of existing linnorms:
Corpse Tearer: Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
Dread: Str 40, Dex 8, Con 31, Int 15, Wis 22, Cha 21
Gray: Str 24, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 17
Swamp: Str 32, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 15, Wis 20, Cha 18


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

I belive we currently have its Wis and Cha set a bit high.   A Wis of 20 and a Cha of 18-20 would be more in line with the other linnorms of its Intelligence.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

Any thoughts on all of this?   It's starting to become embarrassing talking to myself.   Now excuse me...I'm gonna give myself a piece of my mind.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

these guys were next on my list to work on today, after the phanaton.    uno momento...


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

i agree, Wis and Cha look a bit too high.  should we really lower them that much though?


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

OK, I’m assuming that we’re working under the assumption of converting this fellow as an age category 4, or juvenile dragon?  Therefore, we would be giving it the same categories as a 2E juvenile flame linnorm.

This means, it is immune to fire (automatic with the subtype, of course).  Also, it has heat metal, pyrotechnics, and produce fire (all 3/day).  If we wanted to give it more than that (judge accordingly by 3E linnorm standards) we also have: fireball (1/3 rounds) as adult, fire charm and fire trap (3/day) as old, flame strike and wall of fire (2/day) as venerable, and fire seeds and firestorm (1/day) as great wyrm.

Additionally, they would cast spells probably as a 9th-level sorcerer.

For the breath weapons, they would be 8d8+4 or nearest equivalent fire damage.  The line of fire is 110-feet long in 2E, and the cloud/cone of ash is 90’ long, 70’ wide, and 40’ deep.  Standard dimensions are 120 for line and 60 for cone, which of course are just as good.

From the MM, page 69, Crush damage would be 4d6+12 (or +18 for 1 ½?) and tail sweep 2d6+12 (or +18?).  Suggested damage for the other attacks (we can always use the old values instead) would be: bite 4d6+12, claws 2d8+6, tail slap 2d8+6.  if these values seem odd compared to the other linnorms, we can alter as need be.

Note that although standard dragons get blindsense 60, FF linnorms get blindsight 120.  did the blindsense replace blindsight for standard dragons or is this a thing we can keep?


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

One thing I did note.  Gray, dread, and corpse tearer linnorms all had Swim speeds in 2E, but not all of the other linnorms did.  Therefore, I’m not assuming the flame would have a Swim speed.

Did some work on the flavor text:

_This dragon is wingless, and has ashy, dull gray scales with just the barest hint of an orange shade.  Several scaly spines (wrong word) protrude from the tip of its head, casting a slight scarlet glow that resembles a flame._

Flame linnorms are often considered the most beautiful and rare of linnorms.  These malicious creatures take great joy in bending others to their will, and amassing treasure.  Flame linnorms are loners, and lair in caverns deep within the earth, patrolling their territory zealously.  They do not hate other linnorms, but isolate themselves to minimize the risk of theft.  Flames keep a constant inventory of their wealth, and especially prize their beloved magic items.  They have been known to charm or enslave other creatures just to help them acquire more treasure.

A flame linnorm can eat just about anything, from animals, to trees, or even the very earth they walk on.  The most palatable food to a flame linnorm is anything on fire, and this creature has been known to set forest fires just to have a quick snack.  A flame linnorm only attacks non-intelligent creatures for food.

COMBAT
A flame linnorm will prefer to attack from above, providing it with a good vantage point and an excellent chance to escape.  A flame linnorm will usually attack with spells first, with a focus on defeating its foes without damaging their valuables.  It only uses its breath weapons if this tactic fails.  The vain flame linnorm prefers not to fight in close combat, as it has no wish to damage its beautiful scales.  A flame linnorm’s favorite targets are ships, castles, and bands of adventures as these normally provide it with the best treasure.


And here is the picture from MCA1:


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i agree, Wis and Cha look a bit too high. should we really lower them that much though?



To keep it in line with the others, yes.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, I’m assuming that we’re working under the assumption of converting this fellow as an age category 4, or juvenile dragon? Therefore, we would be giving it the same categories as a 2E juvenile flame linnorm.



If this is the way the other linnorms appear to have been converted, then yes.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> This means, it is immune to fire (automatic with the subtype, of course). Also, it has heat metal, pyrotechnics, and produce fire (all 3/day). If we wanted to give it more than that (judge accordingly by 3E linnorm standards) we also have: fireball (1/3 rounds) as adult, fire charm and fire trap (3/day) as old, flame strike and wall of fire (2/day) as venerable, and fire seeds and firestorm (1/day) as great wyrm.



With the exception of firestorm, none of those spell-likes seems more powerful than what the other 3E linnorms have.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Additionally, they would cast spells probably as a 9th-level sorcerer.



This seems really low.  The 13-HD gray linnorm casts as a 17th-level cleric.  The others cast at a minimum of 17th level.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For the breath weapons, they would be 8d8+4 or nearest equivalent fire damage. The line of fire is 110-feet long in 2E, and the cloud/cone of ash is 90’ long, 70’ wide, and 40’ deep. Standard dimensions are 120 for line and 60 for cone, which of course are just as good.



8d8 would be about right compared to the other linnorms.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> From the MM, page 69, Crush damage would be 4d6+12 (or +18 for 1 ½?) and tail sweep 2d6+12 (or +18?). Suggested damage for the other attacks (we can always use the old values instead) would be: bite 4d6+12, claws 2d8+6, tail slap 2d8+6. if these values seem odd compared to the other linnorms, we can alter as need be.



These values seem fine (compare to Corpse Tearer, another Gargantuan linnorm).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Note that although standard dragons get blindsense 60, FF linnorms get blindsight 120. did the blindsense replace blindsight for standard dragons or is this a thing we can keep?



All dragons have blindsense now, unfortunately.  :\ 

The 3.5 Conversion Guide gave the linnorms blindsense instead as well.  (BTW, they're in the MM2   ).

Here's the conversion info for ease of reference:

Linnorm, Corpse Tearer: Dragon; 20 ft./15 ft.; 20/magic; Bluff +35,
Concentration +39, Diplomacy +8, Hide +18, Intimidate +6, Knowledge
(arcana) +34, Listen +38, Search +34, Sense Motive +36, Spellcraft +36,
Spot +38, Swim +21; Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Enlarge Spell,
Flyby Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken
Spell-Like Ability, Snatch; LA —; Change blindsight to blindsense.

Linnorm, Dread: Dragon; 30 ft./15 ft.; 15/magic; Bluff +28,
Concentration +33, Diplomacy +18, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (arcana)
+25, Listen +31, Search +25, Spellcraft +27, Spot +31, Swim +23;
Alertness, Cleave, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken
Spell-Like Ability, Snatch; LA —; Change blindsight to blindsense.

Linnorm, Gray: Dragon; 15 ft./10 ft.; 15/magic; Bluff +19,
Concentration +21, Diplomacy +7, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (arcana)
+18, Listen +22, Search +18, Sense Motive +20, Spellcraft +20, Spot
+22, Swim +15; Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Power Attack,
Snatch; LA —; Change blindsight to blindsense.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

Looking it over, and the other linnorms seem to have been given all the spell-likes regardless of age categories.  We may not do this for some of the lower-HD types though.  This would mean a flame has:

Spell-Like Abilities: (once every three rounds?) – fireball; 3/day –fire trap, heat metal, pyrotechnics, produce flame; 2/day – flame strike, wall of fire; 1/day – fire seeds, fire storm.

What level of sorc do you think they should be casting at?

Breath Weapon: 8d8 straight, or any bonus damage?


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Looking it over, and the other linnorms seem to have been given all the spell-likes regardless of age categories. We may not do this for some of the lower-HD types though. This would mean a flame has:
> 
> Spell-Like Abilities: (once every three rounds?) – fireball; 3/day –fire trap, heat metal, pyrotechnics, produce flame; 2/day – flame strike, wall of fire; 1/day – fire seeds, fire storm.



I noticed that all the 3E ones have _fly_ at will.   Fireball should probably be 3/day as well.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> What level of sorc do you think they should be casting at?



18th.  That's what the dread has, its closest (20 HD) comparable linnorm.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon: 8d8 straight, or any bonus damage?



Straight, just like the other linnorms that have damaging breath weapons.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

this is also how i want to work spells for crius:

Spells: A flame linnorm can cast arcane spells as an 18th-level sorcerer (6/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/5/3; save DC 15 + spell level). A flame linnorm typically has access to the following spells: 
0 – 9; 
1st – 5;
2nd – 5; 
3rd – 4;
4th – 4; 
5th – 4; 
6th – 3; 
7th – 3;
8th – 2;
9th – 1.
The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

Here are my suggestions, based on the fact that they "take great joy in bending others to their will", and that they "have been known to charm or enslave other creatures just to help them acquire more treasure", and of course their association with fire.

0 – arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, light, read magic, touch of fatigue; 
1st – burning hands, charm person, expeditious retreat, magic missle, shield;
2nd – hypnotic pattern, pyrotechnics, resist energy, scorching ray, shatter; 
3rd – dispel magic, displacement, fireball, protection from energy;
4th – charm person, confusion, fire shield, wall of fire; 
5th – dominate person, feeblemind, hold monster, prying eyes; 
6th – disintegrate, eyebite, true seeing; 
7th – delayed blast fireball, greater teleport, prismatic spray;
8th – incendiary cloud, sunburst;
9th – meteor swarm.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

did you mean to include spells that are already on the spell-likes list?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

Yep, it was intentional.  Since none of those were "at will", I figured being able to cast more wouldn't hurt.   Plus, this way it could metamagic some if we give it metamagic feats.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

sure then, your list will do.  DMs can alter it at will, of course.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

But of course.  I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

not that you could help it if someone wanted to, anyway.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

For skills, these are common to linnorms in MM2: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

And common feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch (plus gray and corpse tearer had Power Attack and Quicken Spell-Like Ability, and corpse tearer also had Cleave and Enlarge Spell.)

That’s a starting point.  

Also, the Revision booklet gave corpse tearer Awesome Blow (I should watch how I phrase that) and Improved Bull Rush and added some of the above mentioned ones to other linnorms.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> For skills, these are common to linnorms in MM2: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim
> 
> And common feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch (plus gray and corpse tearer had Power Attack and Quicken Spell-Like Ability, and corpse tearer also had Cleave and Enlarge Spell.)
> 
> ...



And swamp linnorm's got all the above skills and Knowledge (nature).  Its feats are Ability Focus (breath weapon), Alertness, Cleave, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (poison), and Snatch.

So I'm pulling for:  Ability Focus (breath weapon), Cleave, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (either flame strike, wall of fire, or fireball), and Snatch.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

Oh yeah, and skill ranks:  Bluff 23, Concentration 23, Diplomacy 0, Hide 23, Intimidate 23, Knowledge (arcana) 23, Listen 23, Search 23, Sense Motive 23, Spellcraft 23, Spot 23, Swim 0.  (The Diplomacy and Intimidate skill modifiers for the other linnorms that have it seem to come mostly from Cha bonus and synergy; Swim is mostly Str bonus and +8 for having a Swim speed.)

Corpse tearer appears to have maxxed out Hide, considering his heinous size modifier and Dex penalty, he's still got +18.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

you want to give this one a hide skill?  and keep in mind, i'm not giving it a swim speed, so if you want a swim skill we should give it some ranks.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> One thing I did note.  Gray, dread, and corpse tearer linnorms all had Swim speeds in 2E, but not all of the other linnorms did.  Therefore, I’m not assuming the flame would have a Swim speed.




what i said.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

Swim speed?  Nah, I don't think flame-boy would wanna go for a swim.   

As for Hide, we could ditch it in favor of something else.   Maybe, since flamey likes to bend others to his will, we should throw those ranks into Intimidate.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

posting in homebrews.  

CR... well, a lot less hp than the dread, so between 20 and 25?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm thinking CR 23.  Not only does the dread have more hps, its breath weapon does more damage, it has more physical attacks, and it deals energy drain.  I think all that makes a 2 CR difference.

Breath weapon DC = 39.
Tail sweep and Crush DCs = 37.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – fly; 3/day –fire trap (DC 19), fireball (DC 18), heat metal (DC 17), pyrotechnics  (DC 17), produce flame; 2/day – flame strike (DC 20), wall of fire; 1/day – fire seeds  (DC 21), fire storm  (DC 23). Caster level Xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

For the breath weapon, should we use the standard dimension values or the values from 2E?

For spell-like ability caster level, maybe 18 or 20?

Treasure, should we go with double since they are extra greedy?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

Standard, 18th, and double.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

updating...


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

The linnorm standard for Attack line is bite.

Always neutral evil?  Yes.

Draconic and Abyssal seems to be the standard for linnorms.

Weight?  I dunno.  None of the linnorms or Draconomicon creatures have it listed.   The closest (and I use the term loosely) critter I could find is the purple worm, which weighs 40,000 lbs.

Otherwise, I think she's about finished.


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## BOZ (Mar 11, 2004)

are lengths given for any dragons?  if not, then we can skip the size and weight altogether.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2004)

As far as I can tell, wyverns are the only dragon with a weight listed.   

I'd say skip it.


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## BOZ (Mar 11, 2004)

updating - how's that?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2004)

Perfecto!


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## thom99 (Mar 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> updating - how's that?



 Okay...can we *pretty please* do the whipsting next?? <sg>

thomas


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## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

You’ll have to fight shade for that – he’s been waiting for these linnorms for a long time.    I don’t mind doing either the whipsting or continuing the linnorms.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2004)

Continue the linnorms...we're on a roll!   

Besides, I already conceded to thom99 in the Modules thread.


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## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

LOL  see, it's a fight.


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## thom99 (Mar 13, 2004)

LOL!  No, Shade's right - he *did* graciously concede on the vampiric mist, so I will stand aside here on the linnorms!

thom


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## Krishnath (Mar 13, 2004)

I assume that the Frost is next?


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

yeah, we can do the frosty.    just let me find some free time at home to get to it…


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## BOZ (Mar 21, 2004)

Dragon 182

Linnorm, Frost
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any arctic or subarctic
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Family
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil

NO. APPEARING: l-8
ARMOR CLASS: -4 (base)
MOVEMENT: 12, Sw 18
HIT DICE: 15 (base)
THAC0: 5 (at 15 HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite/l tail slap + special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 3d10/14dl0
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable
SIZE: G (48? base)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: Variable

Frost linnorms are perhaps the most territorial of all Norse dragons, never resting until all other intelligent creatures within their domains are destroyed. They are greedy, covetous, and consider all life?besides others of their own kind?beneath them.
At birth, frost linnorms appear to have fur rather than scales, but by the time they have passed through the hatchling stage, small, white, pearl-like scales appear. As the linnorms age, the scales become thicker (although not larger) and sharp like jagged ice. The scales are ever-shifting in color, changing from white to pale blue to transparent to blend in with the frigid environment. Unlike many other linnorms, frost linnorms have small forelegs with manipulative claws, though the forelegs are too weak to be used for combat.
All frost linnorms speak their own language and the languages of other Norse dragons. In addition, hatchling frost linnorms have a 25% chance to magically communicate with any intelligent creature. The chance to possess this ability increases 15% per age category. By the time frost linnorms have reached the age category of adult, they can communicate with any creature with an intelligence of 2 or better.

Combat: More intelligent than most other linnorms, the frost linnorms spend months scheming and plotting against human settlements they discover, playing out the battles in their minds until all the strategies are worked out. Then the linnorms attack in the winter when the weather is on their side. Unless somehow taken by surprise, frost linnorms will avoid fighting without such plans. DMs should take such planning into account and should work out details of an attack to make it as efficient and deadly as possible.
Frost linnorms play upon their victims? weaknesses, and always use breath weapons, runes, and magical abilities before physically fighting. Further, they will employ any magical items they can use from their lairs against their chosen foes. Frost linnorms prefer to attack from any location that will put their foes at a disadvantage. They also attempt to keep their foes fighting on ice, increasing their chances of keeping the opponents off-balance. Frost linnorms are themselves incapable of losing their balance, timing, or orientation due to slippery terrain.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: The frost linnorm?s breath weapon is a cloud of ice particles 80? long, 60? wide, and 40? high. All creatures caught in this cloud must save vs. breath weapon for half damage. 
Frost linnorms are immune to all forms of natural and magical cold. In addition, they gain the following abilities as they age, each usable at will three times a day: young adult?audible glamer, meld into ice; adult?phantasmal force, ice shape; mature adult? improved phantasmal force, control temperature 40? radius; old? spectral force, transmute rock to ice; very old? heal; venerable? advanced illusion, transport via ice; wyrm? transmute wood to ice; great wyrm? programmed illusion, transmute metal to ice. The frost linnorms? special abilities approximate similarly named spells from the Player?s Handbook. Frost linnorms use their spells and magical abilities at a level equal to seven plus their combat modifier. They are always successful in casting rune spells.

Habitat/Society: Frost linnorms are found in frigid climes, moving south in the winter months to devastate and plunder small human settlements. The older linnorms use their magical abilities to transform their territory into ice and shape it into elaborate, strikingly beautiful lairs. Walls and floors within the lairs contain large sections of mirrorlike ice that the linnorms often sit in front of so they can admire themselves. Frost linnorms are familial, and the larger a family, the larger the lair will be. Frost linnorms are perhaps the only Norse dragons that cherish the company of their own kind, valuing offspring and keeping them close until the offspring are adults. All offspring are included in the elaborate battle plans the eldest in the family develops.
The smaller the number of frost linnorms encountered, the older they will be. Single linnorms encountered will always be of the venerable category or older, as only the oldest of linnorms are without family?their mates dead and their offspring long since left to start their own families.
Frost linnorms bury their treasure within their lairs, usually beneath sheets of ice that would be difficult for trespassers to locate or move. They value gems, jewelry, and coins. However, they especially prize works of art. Some objects they consider too beautiful to hide with their treasure hoard, and these they place carefully about their lair so they can be admired.

Ecology: Frost linnorms require little sustenance and do not eat the creatures they kill. Sages believe these linnorms gain nourishment from inhaling frigid winds. They seem especially fond of early morning snow falls, lying on their backs with their mouths open to catch the most succulent flakes.



MCA1: 

Dragon, Linnorm, Frost

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arctic or subarctic land
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Family
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Any
DIET:	Special
INTELLIGENCE: 	Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil

NO. APPEARING: 1d8
ARMOR CLASS: -4 (base)
MOVEMENT: 12, Sw 18
HIT DICE: 15 (base)
THACO: 5 (base)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 plus special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3d10/4d10/special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: G (48' base length)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: See below

Frost linnorms are perhaps the most territorial of all Norse dragons, never resting until all other intelligent creatures within their domains are destroyed.

At birth, frosts appear to have fur, but small pearly scales appear by the time they pass the hatchling stage. Eventually the scales become thicker and sharp like jagged ice, ever shifting in hue from white to pale blue to transparent, blending with the environment. Frosts have small forelegs with manipulative claws, though they are too weak for combat.

These creatures speak their own language and those of other Norse dragons. Hatchlings have a 25% chance to magically communicate with any creature with an Intelligence of 2 or higher, and that chance increases by 15% per age category.

Combat: Frosts spend months plotting against enemies, playing out battles in their minds until all strategies are worked out.  They like to attack in the winter and play upon victims' weaknesses, always using breath weapons, runes (see the Viking Campaign Sourcebook, TSR stock #9322), and magical items and abilities before, fighting with a bite and tail slap. They often attempt to confront their foes, on ice, as they never lose their balance, timing, or orientation on slippery terrain.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: The frost's breath weapon is a cloud of ice particles 80 feet long, 60 feet wide, and 40 feet high (save for half damage). They are immune to natural and magical cold, and gain the following abilities as they age, each usable at will, three times a day: young adult ? audible glamer, meld into ice; adult - phantasmal force, ice shape; mature adult - improved phantasmal force, control temperature 40' radius; old - spectral force, transmute rock to ice; very old - heal; venerable ? advanced illusion, transport via ice; wyrm - transmute wood to ice; great wyrm - programmed illusion, transmute metal to ice. (Ice spells are variants of those found in the PHB.) All magic is wielded it a level equal to 7 plus the dragon's combat modifier. They are always successful casting rune spells.

Habitat/Society: Frost linnorms are found in frigid climes, ranging from the poles in winter months to devastate and plunder human settlements. Older linnorms use their magical abilities to transform their territories into ice and shape them into elaborate, reflective lairs.

Frosts are familial and keep their young close until they reach adulthood. Offspring are frequently included in the complex battle plans conceived by the eldest dragon. The smaller the number of frost linnorms encountered, the older they will tend to be; solitary frosts are always venerable or older, their mates dead and their offspring long gone.

Frost linnorms bury treasure within their lairs, usually beneath sheets of ice. They value gems, jewelry, coins, and especially art. Some objects are considered so beautiful that they place them about the lair where they can be admired.

Ecology: Frost linnorms require little sustenance and don't eat creatures they kill. Sages believe they gain nourishment from inhaling frigid winds.


Originally found in Dragon Magazine #182 (?The Vikings? Dragons,? June 1992, Jean Rabe), and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).

for the hell of it, here are the aging tables:


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

It looks like these guys should be Gargantuan.

Ability scores of existing linnorms:

Corpse Tearer: Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
Dread: Str 40, Dex 8, Con 31, Int 15, Wis 22, Cha 21
Gray: Str 24, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 17
Swamp: Str 32, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 15, Wis 20, Cha 18
Flame:  Str 35, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 20

I'd suggest Str 32-36, Dex 10, Con 26-27, Int 18-19, Wis 20, Cha 19-20.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2004)

Breath Weapon (Su): A frost linnorm may use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds. This weapon manifests as a 60-foot cone of ice particles. This attack deals X points of cold damage, half on a successful Reflex save (DC X). The save DC is Constitution-based. 

Crush (Ex): A flying frost linnorm can land on opponents three or more sizes smaller than itself as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the frost linnorm's body. Each creature in the affected area must succeed at a Reflex save (DC X) or be pinned, automatically taking X+X points of bludgeoning damage. The save DC is Constitution-based. Thereafter, if the frost linnorm chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. While pinned, the opponent takes crush damage each round. 

Tail Sweep (Ex): A frost linnorm can sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects creatures four or more size categories smaller than the linnorm within a 30-foot-radius half-circle centered on the linnorm's rear. Each affected creature that fails a Reflex save (DC X half) takes X+X points of damage. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

Keen Senses (Ex): A frost linnorm sees four times as well as a human in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision with a range of 120 feet.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2004)

> These creatures speak their own language and those of other Norse dragons. Hatchlings have a 25% chance to magically communicate with any creature with an Intelligence of 2 or higher, and that chance increases by 15% per age category.



Give 'em telepathy?



> They often attempt to confront their foes, on ice, as they never lose their balance, timing, or orientation on slippery terrain.





> They also attempt to keep their foes fighting on ice, increasing their chances of keeping the opponents off-balance. Frost linnorms are themselves incapable of losing their balance, timing, or orientation due to slippery terrain.



One of these abilities, or something else?

Icewalking (Ex): This ability works like the _spider climb_ spell, but the surfaces the linnorm climbs must be icy. It is always in effect.

Cold Adaptation (Ex): Frost linnorms suffer no ill effects (such as penalties on Spot checks) from snow or sleet and can walk across icy surfaces without needing to make a Balance check.


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## BOZ (Mar 24, 2004)

Will respond soon – I’m being “watched” so I’ll have to do most of my reading/thinking later in the afternoon.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2004)

The spell-like abilities are gonna be tough.   Here's what they get, and my best guess on what current spells are similar:

meld into ice (as meld into stone)
phantasmal force - ? 
ice shape (as stone shape) 
improved phantasmal force - ? 
control temperature 40' radius - ? 
spectral force - ? 
transmute rock to ice (as transmute rock to mud) 
heal - duh 
advanced illusion - major image? 
transport via ice - (as transport via plants) 
transmute wood to ice - (as transmute metal to wood, reversed?) 
programmed illusion -  ?
transmute metal to ice - (as transmute metal to wood)


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

bout time i posted something in this thread...

*Linnorm, Frost Linnorm*
Gargantuan Dragon (Cold)
Hit Dice: 15d12+120 (217 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares), swim 50 ft
Armor Class: 24 (+4 size, +18 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+38
Attack: 
Full Attack: Bite?? +X melee (2d8+X), tail slap
Space/Reach: 20 ft/15 ft (20 with bite)
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, crush, spell-like abilities, spells, tail sweep
Special Qualities: Blindsense 60 ft, damage reduction 10?/magic?, keen senses, spell resistance X, telepathy?
Saves: Fort +17 Ref +9 Will +14
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 19
Skills: 180
Feats: 6

Environment: Any cold land
Organization: Solitary or family (2-8)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double Standard?
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 16-45 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

Excellent.  She's a cold mistress to keep waiting.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

The standard full attack for linnorms is bite and 2 claws and tail slap.  Attack is just bite.


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

this one didn't have claw attacks before, wonder why?


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

Here's why:



> frost linnorms have small forelegs with manipulative claws, though the forelegs are too weak to be used for combat.



I should read that earlier.  So I guess we dump claw attacks for them, and just go bite or tail slap?


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

cool, with bite for the attack line.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

Any thoughts on the proposed abilities so far?


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

will give you some thoughts soon.


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## BOZ (Apr 9, 2004)

Well, ok, the crush, tail sweep, and keen senses are fairly standard abilities and don’t change much from dragon to dragon, so they are fine as-is (with a few values plugged in as needed).  If the save DC is 10 + ½ HD (7) + Con mod (8), then we have DC 25.  one thing I noticed comparing to the flame linn; either I’m wrong there, or the flame’s have some extra high DCs?

The breath weapon was fairly simple, so that’s looking good.  (original had a range of 80 feet, so we lose a bit there).  For damage, we can go with the juvenile breath weapon damage, as I think we did with the flame.  I posted those old tables somewhere around here didn’t I?  Well, I see it had 7d10+4 once upon a time.  What shall we call that now?  

As for adaption to the environment, might as well keep it simple and stick with the white dragon’s icewalking ability.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Well, ok, the crush, tail sweep, and keen senses are fairly standard abilities and don’t change much from dragon to dragon, so they are fine as-is (with a few values plugged in as needed). If the save DC is 10 + ½ HD (7) + Con mod (8), then we have DC 25. one thing I noticed comparing to the flame linn; either I’m wrong there, or the flame’s have some extra high DCs?



You've got the formula right, so I suppose flamey's wrong.  :\ 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The breath weapon was fairly simple, so that’s looking good. (original had a range of 80 feet, so we lose a bit there). For damage, we can go with the juvenile breath weapon damage, as I think we did with the flame. I posted those old tables somewhere around here didn’t I? Well, I see it had 7d10+4 once upon a time. What shall we call that now?



A 15-HD white dragon does 5d6.  A 16-HD silver does 8d8.  So maybe 7d6?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As for adaption to the environment, might as well keep it simple and stick with the white dragon’s icewalking ability.



Sounds good.


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## BOZ (Apr 12, 2004)

sounds good to me too.    i'll have to remind myself to fix the flame...


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## BOZ (Apr 13, 2004)

and so i have.    posting in homebrews for a look-see.

did i bring this one up before?



			
				Dragon 182 said:
			
		

> In addition, hatchling frost linnorms have a 25% chance to magically communicate with any intelligent creature. The chance to possess this ability increases 15% per age category. By the time frost linnorms have reached the age category of adult, they can communicate with any creature with an intelligence of 2 or better.





			
				MCA1 said:
			
		

> Hatchlings have a 25% chance to magically communicate with any creature with an Intelligence of 2 or higher, and that chance increases by 15% per age category.




or this?


			
				Dragon 182 said:
			
		

> The scales are ever-shifting in color, changing from white to pale blue to transparent to blend in with the frigid environment.





			
				MCA1 said:
			
		

> Eventually the scales become thicker and sharp like jagged ice, ever shifting in hue from white to pale blue to transparent, blending with the environment.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2004)

For simplicity's sake, and the fact that they no longer gain age categories, I'd just give them standard telepathy.  (100 feet?)

The coloration bonus can be borrowed from the tundra landwyrm:

Skills:  *Tundra landwyrms have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in cold desert or plains environments. This bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 when the landwyrm is immobile.


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## Filby (Apr 16, 2004)

Er, I believe that all dragons in 2E have a chance of being able to communicate with any living creature. All of the chromatic, metallic, and gem dragons in the 2E _Monstrous Manual_ had it, for instance. I think that power can be safely left out, since it hasn't carried over to any of the 3E dragons.


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## BOZ (Apr 16, 2004)

Shade, that all sounds good… now to figure out the spell-like abilities!

Filby, really?  I did not know that.    and now dragons have nothing like that?


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## Filby (Apr 17, 2004)

Yep. Here's a hypertext version of the 2E MM, you can scroll down and see them.

EDIT: I've checked some of the non-chromatic/gem/metallic dragons and not all of them have it. Still, it's a generally outdated thing.


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> The spell-like abilities are gonna be tough.   Here's what they get, and my best guess on what current spells are similar:
> 
> meld into ice (as meld into stone)
> phantasmal force - ?
> ...




according to the 3.0 conversion book:
phantasmal force – silent image
improved phantasmal force – minor image
spectral force – major image
advanced illusion – not listed, I’ll get a description of it up soon for comparison
programmed illusion – programmed image

control temperature 40' radius – didn’t we do some work on this for the shatjan or am I mistaken?

As for the “icy” spell-like abilities, rather than reinvent the wheel… I’m thinking of listing them with a *, and explaining with a blurb that “these spells replace the commonly-used element with ice” or something to that effect.  Skip transmute wood to metal, as this is no longer a used spell (but keep metal to wood, as it is!)


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2004)

I forgot that the 3.0 coversion guide mentioned the spell changes.  Woo-hoo!

I think we did do something like that with the shatjan.

Good call on the handling of the "icy" abilities.


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

we should write up the control temperatures as a separate ability, the way we did with the shatjan.

does this one sound anything like a current spell?  sounds like a dirivative of spectral force/major image.

Advanced Illusion 
(Illusion/Phantasm)

Range: 60 yds. + 10 yds./level	
Duration: 1 rd./level	
Area of Effect: One 40-ft. cube + one 10-ft. cube/level
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 rd.
Saving Throw: Special

	This spell is essentially a spectral force spell that operates through a program (similar to a programmed illusion spell) determined by the caster. It is thus unnecessary for the wizard to concentrate on the spell for longer than the round of casting it, as the program has then started and will continue without supervision. The illusion has visual, audio, olfactory, and thermal components. If any viewer actively attempts to disbelieve the spell, he gains a saving throw vs. spell. If any viewer successfully disbelieves and communicates this fact to other viewers, each such viewer gains a saving throw vs. spell with a +4 bonus.
	The material components are a bit of fleece and several grains of sand.


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

keeping that in mind, voila... 

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day - heal, major image, meld into stone*, minor image, programmed image, silent image, stone shape*, transmute metal to wood*, transmute rock to mud*, transport via plants*.  Caster level Xth.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*A frost linnorm is able to replace the element commonly used as the focus for these spells with ice.  As such, these spells effectively become meld into ice, ice shape, transmute metal to ice, transmute rock to ice, and transport via ice when used by a frost linnorm.

i'm thinking maybe some of them should be at will instead of all 3/day - but only a few of them.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2004)

I think _advanced illusion_ is essentially_ persistent image_.

Of those abilities, I'd vote for meld into ice and ice shape as "at will" abilities.


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

only those two?


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2004)

You said only a few.   

I could also see minor image and maybe one of the other illusion spells as "at wills" as well.


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## BOZ (Apr 22, 2004)

Standard linnorm skills (180 ranks):
Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Standard linnorm feats (frosty gets 6):
Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch
Other feats: Ability Focus, Cleave, Power Attack, metamagic feats


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2004)

I'd recommend skill ranks of:  Bluff 18, Concentration 18, Diplomacy 18, Intimidate 18, Knowledge (arcana) 18, Listen 18, Search 18, Sense Motive 18, Spellcraft 18, Spot 18, Swim 0

For Feats:  Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch, and either Ability Focus (breath weapon) or Quicken Spell-Like Ability (ice shape).


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## BOZ (Apr 22, 2004)

Treasure: Standard?  (I ask, because the 20-HD Dread and 13-HD Gray have standard rather than double)

CR… 20-22?  (therefore SR is CR +11?)

Damage reduction 10/magic and cold iron?


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2004)

Standard...yes.

CR 21/SR 32.

Yes to suggested DR.

Man the boards are loading _slowwwww_ today.


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## BOZ (Apr 22, 2004)

don't think i haven't noticed...

updating in homebrews - how's it looking?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2004)

The only thing that seems left is a caster level for spell-like abilities, and adding in the save DCs.   I suggest caster level 17th.   I noticed that most linnorms have caster levels lower than their HD, but the gray has higher.  Since the frost lacks spellcasting like the other linnorms, I'd go with the higher caster level.


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## BOZ (Apr 23, 2004)

That’s fine.  How about this:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - meld into stone*, minor image (DC 16), silent image (DC 15), stone shape*; 3/day - heal (DC 20), major image (DC 17), persistent image (DC 19), programmed image (DC 20), transmute metal to wood*, transmute rock to mud* (DC 19), transport via plants*.  Caster level 17th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2004)

That looks correct.


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## BOZ (Apr 23, 2004)

Updating…  done then?  If so, I promised to interject the whipsting before the next linnorm.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2004)

I think so.  The whipsting should be a nice diversion from Norse draconic might.


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## BOZ (Apr 23, 2004)

And so you shall have it.    with returning to linnorms following that…


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## thom99 (Apr 25, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> And so you shall have it.    with returning to linnorms following that…




Oh thank you, thank you, thank you!    I don't know much about linnorms so I didn't have anything useful to contribute.

thom


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## BOZ (Apr 26, 2004)

No problem, just as soon as I can get some time on my scanner…


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## BOZ (May 3, 2004)

and the day has come!  

the first issue we should resolve would be what size category this thing is...

Dragon Magazine #197 ("The Dragon's Bestiary," September 1993, Ed Greenwood).

Whipsting
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: All/Rocky, subterranean
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or small packs
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Carnivore, scavenger
INTELLIGENCE: Varies (1-12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-6 (d6)
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 8, Fl 9 gliding (D)
HIT DICE: 1+4
THAC0: 20 (16 when springing)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2 (bite)/1 x 2 (stings)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Venom
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Jump
SIZE: S to L (tentacles 5’ to 20’ long)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 120

The whipsting is a vicious predator found on rocky ledge caverns, and among ruins all across the Forgotten Realms. It is named for its lashing attack, in which it tries to drive an envenomed sting into an opponent. The strike of an attacking whipsting makes a loud, whiplike crack audible up to 70’ away. Whipstings have wrinkled, spherical bodies 6”-12” in diameter. From opposing sides of a whipsting’s ball-like form protrude two dexterous, tapering tentacles. These are usually about 5’ long, but some whipstings fought by adventurers have had tentacles up to 20’ long. Both tentacles end in sticky tips that aid the whipsting in grasping and climbing, each tip having a fixed, bony sting protruding at an angle just beside the leathery tentacle tip. Amid the “wrinkles” (skin flaps) of the muddy-gray body of a whipsting are many eyes. A whipsting has both normal vision and infravision effective to 120’.

On the underside of a whipsting is a sucking mouth dominated by three shark-like teeth set in a triangle. The teeth can move independently of one another and are capable of gnawing through armor plate. When they close together, they meet to completely seal the whipsting’s mouth. A whipsting eats any meat it, can, living or dead, gorging itself tirelessly. Its elastic body can expand to contain meals of up to 10 times its own size.

Combat: A whipsting usually waits for prey with one tentacle curled underneath itself to form a natural spring. If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick. Otherwise, its initial attack consists of suddenly straightening this tentacle to propel itself from its ledge or fissure in a wild spring that ends in a lashing whip of the whipsting’s body, which drives its envenomed sting deep into the opponent ( +4 to hit). The whipsting then tries to constrict, smother, or strangle prey by remaining attached to it, slapping with its tentacles to drive home its two stings. A whipsting’s sting strikes for 1 hp damage. A strike also injects its venom into or onto its prey (the poison is effective both internally and by skin contact).

The prey must save versus poison at -2 to avoid the venom effects. If the save fails, the prey shudders uncontrollably on the round following the sting-strike. Nausea and weakness ruin all attacks and spellcasting attempted by the victim on that round, and cause the automatic dropping of all wielded or carried objects. Tasks requiring high manual dexterity, such as picking a lock or writing a message, are impossible. The victim also suffers a one-round armor-class penalty of 1. On subsequent rounds, the victim can move normally but is still weak; attacks are at a -3 penalty to attack and damage rolls initially, -2 on the round following,-1 on the next round, and normal thereafter. Each successful whipsting strike results in another round of shuddering (as described above) unless saved against. Every successful whipsting attack must be saved against even if the target creature has previously escaped venom effects by a successful saving throw.

Habitat/Society: Little is known about these predators. They are believed to be hermaphroditic and to vary widely in intelligence. Whipstings lay eggs (large and rubbery like turtle eggs, often green-white or dun in color) in caves or dark crevices. These eggs are edible but have no market value. Whipstings are more often found in groups than alone, and they peacefully co-exist with each other. They are thought to live many years.

Ecology: Some whipstings have been domesticated as pets or guards; others are used as unwilling guardians. In Amn and Tethyr, whipstings are often imprisoned in small coffers atop treasure as a deterrent to thievery. This custom is rarer elsewhere but not unknown, and it is a special favorite of caravan merchants. Intelligent monsters often use whipstings to guard their lairs. Perytons and griffons are known to eat whipstings, biting off the stings with their first attacks to avoid the venom. Whipstings are themselves immune to the effects of all whipsting venom. Whipsting venom is an ingredient in the making of rings of weakness and nausea-inducing medicines.

Stingwings: Approximately 10% of all encountered whipstings have gauzy, fragile wings that allow them to glide down from heights without damage or jump farther than wingless whipstings, up to 60’ horizontally. Such wings can be regenerated in 1-3 days if damaged. The wings cannot be targeted in combat, but a captured “stingwing” could have its wings cut off (wings have AC 10 and 1 hp), and they will automatically be destroyed by any sort of area-effect flame spell.



Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994):

Whipsting
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Rocky, subterranean
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or small pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore, scavenger
INTELLIGENCE: Varies (1 - 12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1d6
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 91, Fl 9 (D)
HIT DICE: 1+4
THACO: 19 (15 if springing)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	 (1-2) /1 (x 2)
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Venom
SPECIAL DEFENSES:	Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: S-L (tentacles 5'-20' long)
MORALE: Steady (11- 12)
XP VALUE: 175

The whipsting is a vicious predator found on rocky ledges, in caverns, and among ruins. The strike of a whipsting makes a loud, whiplike crack audible up to 70 feet away. Whipstings have wrinkled, spherical bodies 6 to 12 inches in diameter. From opposing sides of a whipsting's ball-like form protrude two dexterous, tapering tentacles from 5 to 20 feet long. Both tentacles end in sticky tips that aid the whipsting in grasping and climbing, and each has a fixed, bony stinger protruding at an angle just beside the leathery tentacle tip. Amid the “wrinkles” (skin flaps) of the muddy-gray body are many eyes. A whipsting has both normal and infravision, effective to 120 feet.

On the underside of a whipsting is a sucking mouth dominated by three sharklike teeth, set in a triangle. The teeth can move independently of one another and are capable of gnawing through armor plate. When they close together, they meet to completely seal the whipsting's mouth.

Combat: A whipsting usually waits for prey with one tentacle curled underneath itself to form a natural spring. If facing a large foe, it avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about like a pogo stick. Otherwise, its initial attack consists of suddenly straightening this tentacle to propel itself in a wild spring that ends in a lashing whip of the body, driving its envenomed stinger deep into an opponent (+4 attack, bonus). The whipsting then tries to constrict, smother, or strangle prey by remaining attached to it, slapping with its tentacles to drive home its two stings. A whipsting's stinger strikes for 1 point of damage and also injects venom into or onto its prey. The prey must successfully save vs. poison with a -2 penalty to avoid the venom's effects. If the save fails, the prey shudders uncontrollably on the round following the sting. Nausea and weakness ruin all attacks by the victim in that round, and cause the automatic dropping of all wielded or carried objects; tasks requiring high dexterity are impossible. The victim also suffers a one-round Armor Class penalty of 1. On subsequent rounds, the victim can move normally, but remains weak - attack and damage rolls suffer -3 penalties in that round, then -2 penalties the following round, -1 penalties on the next round, and return to normal thereafter. Every successful sting results in another round of shuddering (barring a successful Save).

Habitat/Society: Little is known about these predators. They are believed to be hermaphroditic and to vary widely in intelligence. They lay eggs (large and rubbery, like turtle eggs, often green-white or dun in color) in caves or dark crevices. These eggs are edible, but have no market value. Whipstings are more often found in groups than alone, and they peacefully coexist with each other, They are thought to live many years.

Ecology: A whipsting eats any meat it can find, living or dead, gorging itself tirelessly. Its elastic body can expand to contain meals of up to 10 times its own size.

Whipstings have been occasionally domesticated as pets or guards. Perytons and griffons are known to eat whipstings, biting off the stings with their first attacks to avoid the venom. Whipstings are themselves immune to the effects of their own venom, which is an ingredient in the making of rings of weakness and nausea-inducing medicines.

Stingwings
Approximately 10% of whipstings have gauzy, fragile wings that allow them to glide down from heights or jump farther than wingless whipstings - up to 60 feet horizontally. Such wings regenerate in 1d3 days if damaged. The wings cannot be targeted in combat, but a captured stingwing could have its wings cut off (AC 10, 1 hp), and they will automatically be destroyed by any sort of area-effect fire spell.


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## BOZ (May 3, 2004)

Any input for the size?  “Whipstings have wrinkled, spherical bodies 6 to 12 inches in diameter. From opposing sides of a whipsting's ball-like form protrude two dexterous, tapering tentacles from 5 to 20 feet long.”  

So, what does that tell us.  Well, if you took one at maximum size and stretched it out, that one would be 40 feet long.  But I don’t think Gargantuan is very appropriate.  If you one at minimum size and stretched it out, you’d have one that would be 10 ½ feet long – Large size.  The body itself is ½ to 1 foot long, which is Diminutive, but the size of the tentacles alone definitely push it past the dimensions of Diminutive.

I’d say an appropriate size, with advancement, would be either Medium to Large, or maybe Large to Medium.  I could also see arguments for Small to Medium or even Large to Huge, but I want to see what you all have to say first.

some preliminary stats for a whipsting:

*Whipsting*
X Aberration
Hit Dice: 1d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares), fly 30 feet (poor)
Armor Class: 13? (+X size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: X (bite and two tentacles?)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: poison (jumping +4 to hit?), improved grab, constrict?
Special Qualities: X
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X (jump bonus, climb)
Feats: X (X)

Environment: Any hills, mountains, and underground?
Organization: Solitary or pack (1-6)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: X


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## thom99 (May 4, 2004)

Hmmm...size is a tough call.  I'm inclined to go with small to medium (even though I HATE keeping track of the size modifier :\ ), but I could live with medium to large...

Just out of curiosity why'd you go with aberration vs plant?

I'm gonna look at various creatures in the Manuals to see if I can find anything similar...Say didn't the *gambado*  get redone recently?  It has a spring/jump attack as well I think - might be worth checking it out.

Thanks for gettin' all this started, Boz!  

thom


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## BOZ (May 4, 2004)

thom99 said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity why'd you go with aberration vs plant?




I didn't see any evidence that suggested they are supposed to be plants.   :\


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## Shade (May 4, 2004)

I'd make it size Small, and give it 20-foot reach with its tentacles.


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## BOZ (May 4, 2004)

Well, the crowd says small to medium…  

I guess having the +1 size modifier to attacks and AC will help it, but that will really hinder its grapple checks (which it seems it will need, BTW)

I could see the smallest of them being Small in size when curled up like a spring, so I guess that works.


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## Shade (May 5, 2004)

You can always give them Improved Grapple as a bonus feat (+4 bonus on grapple checks), or give them a racial bonus on grapple checks like the stirge.


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## BOZ (May 5, 2004)

or both; we'll see.    we could give them an Attach attack like the stirge.

ideas for ability scores?  don't short change them on Str, but it looks like their physical attacks don't do much damage.  some things to think about regarding ability scores:

INTELLIGENCE: Varies (1-12)
"From opposing sides of a whipsting’s ball-like form protrude two dexterous, tapering tentacles."
"A whipsting usually waits for prey with one tentacle curled underneath itself to form a natural spring. If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick. Otherwise, its initial attack consists of suddenly straightening this tentacle to propel itself from its ledge or fissure in a wild spring that ends in a lashing whip of the whipsting’s body, which drives its envenomed sting deep into the opponent ( +4 to hit)."
"The prey must save versus poison at -2 to avoid the venom effects."  (higher Con or Ability Focus?)
"Little is known about these predators. They are believed to be hermaphroditic and to vary widely in intelligence."


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## Shade (May 5, 2004)

Heh.  These guys probably should go in the "Send in the Clowns" thread.   What a goofy creature!   

I definitely don't seem them as being any smarter than a griffon (Int 5).   Personally, I'd recommend int 3.

Since their damage was so low, I'd give them no more than 10 Str.   Let the other bonuses we mentioned cover the grapple issue.


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## BOZ (May 5, 2004)

i'll go with Str 10 as you suggested, and keep the Int a bit higher at 5.  they go all the way up to 12, so no need to keep em towards the bottom.

as for the rest, how about...
Dex 18-22
Con 14-19 (keep in mind, the HD was "1+4" which suggests they should have more hp than average for a 1 HD creature)
Wis and Cha maybe 10?

also, i hadn't posted their picture yet, had i!


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## Shade (May 5, 2004)

Sounds good.  Dex 21, Con 18?


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## BOZ (May 6, 2004)

Seems to me we need an updated stat block:

*Whipsting*
Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 1d8+4 (8 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares), fly 30 feet (poor)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 size, +5 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d3) and 2 tentacles/stingers +X melee (1d2 and poison)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft (X ft with tentacles)
Special Attacks: poison (jumping +4 to hit?), improved grab, constrict?
Special Qualities: darkvision 120 ft
Saves: Fort +4 Ref +5 Will +2
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con 18, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: 4 (jump bonus, climb)
Feats: 1 (improved grapple, maybe weapon finesse and/or Multiattack?)


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## Krishnath (Jun 18, 2004)

Give it 15' reach with the tentacles. As for the feat, just go with Weapon Finesse.


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## BOZ (Jun 18, 2004)

15’ reach indeed, but I’m still thinking about the feat.  It’ll probably get one feat as bonus.



			
				thom99 said:
			
		

> Say didn't the *gambado* get redone recently? It has a spring/jump attack as well I think - might be worth checking it out.




the Tome of Horrors version does spring to attack, but there is no special ability written up for this.  Same thing with the older  Creature Catalog version.


For reference, here is the stirge’s attach attack, which I mentioned above:

Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent’s body.  An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey.  The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity.  Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself.  To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.


breaking down some sections from Dragon #197:

“It is named for its lashing attack, in which it tries to drive an envenomed sting into an opponent. The strike of an attacking whipsting makes a loud, whiplike crack audible up to 70’ away.”

“A whipsting usually waits for prey with one tentacle curled underneath itself to form a natural spring. If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick. Otherwise, its initial attack consists of suddenly straightening this tentacle to propel itself from its ledge or fissure in a wild spring that ends in a lashing whip of the whipsting’s body, which drives its envenomed sting deep into the opponent ( +4 to hit).”

Flavor text?  Or should the “spring attack” with a +4 bonus be some sort of Ex ability?

“The whipsting then tries to constrict, smother, or strangle prey by remaining attached to it, slapping with its tentacles to drive home its two stings. A whipsting’s sting strikes for 1 hp damage.”

And this would form the basis of the Attach or Improved Grab or whatnot?  Or that could just be more flavor text.

 “A strike also injects its venom into or onto its prey (the poison is effective both internally and by skin contact).”

“The prey must save versus poison at -2 to avoid the venom effects. If the save fails, the prey shudders uncontrollably on the round following the sting-strike. Nausea and weakness ruin all attacks and spellcasting attempted by the victim on that round, and cause the automatic dropping of all wielded or carried objects. Tasks requiring high manual dexterity, such as picking a lock or writing a message, are impossible. The victim also suffers a one-round armor-class penalty of 1. On subsequent rounds, the victim can move normally but is still weak; attacks are at a -3 penalty to attack and damage rolls initially, -2 on the round following,-1 on the next round, and normal thereafter. Each successful whipsting strike results in another round of shuddering (as described above) unless saved against. Every successful whipsting attack must be saved against even if the target creature has previously escaped venom effects by a successful saving throw.”

“Whipstings are themselves immune to the effects of all whipsting venom.”

And here is the poison.  Sounds like some nausea, perhaps some Str and Dex damage as well.  We can make this a non-standard sort of venom attack, or try to fit it into the standard sort of poison listing. 

I see Ability Focus in there, but we are already loading this 1-HD monster up with feats.  I’ll tell you one thing I saw quite a bit of (that I never really noticed before) while I was working on my project for XRP is racial bonuses to save DC’s.  go ahead, they’re in there; check out the rust monster, monstrous spider, roper, and a few others I can’t recall at the moment.  I think we should use that when we have something with a lower DC than we should expect.


Also, the text provides a variant:

“Stingwings: Approximately 10% of all encountered whipstings have gauzy, fragile wings that allow them to glide down from heights without damage or jump farther than wingless whipstings, up to 60’ horizontally. Such wings can be regenerated in 1-3 days if damaged. The wings cannot be targeted in combat, but a captured “stingwing” could have its wings cut off (wings have AC 10 and 1 hp), and they will automatically be destroyed by any sort of area-effect flame spell.”

Which I rewrote as:

About one tenth of all whipstings are called stingwings, and have a set of tiny, flimsy, transparent wings.  These wings provide a stingwing with a fly speed of 30 feet per round (average maneuverability) and a +X racial bonus on Jump checks.  These wings can be easily cut off with a slashing weapon if a stingwing is held down or helpless, and are automatically destroyed if a stingwing suffers any fire damage.  Severing or destroying a stingwing’s wings does no damage to the creature.  A stingwing fully regrows its wings in 1d3 days.


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## thom99 (Jun 21, 2004)

Hey Boz!  Thanks for keeping this thread goin!  

Hmmm...with all these 'difficulties' I'm beginning to agree with Shade that the whipsting *is* a weird one! 




> Flavor text? Or should the “spring attack” with a +4 bonus be some sort of Ex ability?




I wouldn't mind the +4 bonus for the first (i.e. spring) attack.
And I *definitely* agree we need a *lot* of racial bonuses to avoid too many feats!



> The whipsting then tries to constrict, smother, or strangle prey by remaining attached to it, slapping with its tentacles to drive home its two stings. A whipsting’s sting strikes for 1 hp damage.





I'm OK with this being flavor text, except for the 1 hp damage. And the variant verbiage sounds fine!

Thanks again for all the hard work Boz!

thom


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> breaking down some sections from Dragon #197:
> 
> “It is named for its lashing attack, in which it tries to drive an envenomed sting into an opponent. The strike of an attacking whipsting makes a loud, whiplike crack audible up to 70’ away.”



Should this have any combat implications (the sound, that is)?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “A whipsting usually waits for prey with one tentacle curled underneath itself to form a natural spring. If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick. Otherwise, its initial attack consists of suddenly straightening this tentacle to propel itself from its ledge or fissure in a wild spring that ends in a lashing whip of the whipsting’s body, which drives its envenomed sting deep into the opponent ( +4 to hit).”
> 
> Flavor text? Or should the “spring attack” with a +4 bonus be some sort of Ex ability?



Probably Ex ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “The whipsting then tries to constrict, smother, or strangle prey by remaining attached to it, slapping with its tentacles to drive home its two stings. A whipsting’s sting strikes for 1 hp damage.”
> 
> And this would form the basis of the Attach or Improved Grab or whatnot? Or that could just be more flavor text.



Basis.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “A strike also injects its venom into or onto its prey (the poison is effective both internally and by skin contact).”
> 
> “The prey must save versus poison at -2 to avoid the venom effects. If the save fails, the prey shudders uncontrollably on the round following the sting-strike. Nausea and weakness ruin all attacks and spellcasting attempted by the victim on that round, and cause the automatic dropping of all wielded or carried objects. Tasks requiring high manual dexterity, such as picking a lock or writing a message, are impossible. The victim also suffers a one-round armor-class penalty of 1. On subsequent rounds, the victim can move normally but is still weak; attacks are at a -3 penalty to attack and damage rolls initially, -2 on the round following,-1 on the next round, and normal thereafter. Each successful whipsting strike results in another round of shuddering (as described above) unless saved against. Every successful whipsting attack must be saved against even if the target creature has previously escaped venom effects by a successful saving throw.”
> 
> ...



I'd simplify it to nausea, Str and Dex damage.  The rest seems to fall into a reduction of Str and Dex.   I like the racial bonus to save DC better than Ability Focus, as this weak little critter shouldn't have too many feats. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, the text provides a variant:
> 
> “Stingwings: Approximately 10% of all encountered whipstings have gauzy, fragile wings that allow them to glide down from heights without damage or jump farther than wingless whipstings, up to 60’ horizontally. Such wings can be regenerated in 1-3 days if damaged. The wings cannot be targeted in combat, but a captured “stingwing” could have its wings cut off (wings have AC 10 and 1 hp), and they will automatically be destroyed by any sort of area-effect flame spell.”
> 
> ...



Good rewrite!


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## BOZ (Jun 21, 2004)

thom99 said:
			
		

> Hey Boz! Thanks for keeping this thread goin!
> 
> Hmmm...with all these 'difficulties' I'm beginning to agree with Shade that the whipsting is a weird one!




weird, well yes it is.  But difficulties were meant to be overcome!  



			
				thom99 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't mind the +4 bonus for the first (i.e. spring) attack.
> And I *definitely* agree we need a *lot* of racial bonuses to avoid too many feats!




I don’t know about a _lot_… we’ll do what needs doing though.  

Let me give this a try:

“Spring” Attack (Ex): When a whipsting jumps at an opponent from a coiled position, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll for the first round of combat.

Should we make use of this somehow?  AC dodge bonus?  Add it to the spring action above?

“If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick.”



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should this have any combat implications (the sound, that is)?




no, I don’t think so.  Other than everyone in the area can hear it.  The text doesn’t say anything about deafening opponents.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Basis.




OK…   so does attach make more sense, or improved grab?  Or should we write up some sort of hybrid ability?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd simplify it to nausea, Str and Dex damage. The rest seems to fall into a reduction of Str and Dex. I like the racial bonus to save DC better than Ability Focus, as this weak little critter shouldn't have too many feats.




cool.  I’m thinking this will have to be written up as a “Venom (Ex)” sort of ability rather than a standard poison.  More on this later.


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## BOZ (Jun 22, 2004)

And here’s what I came up with.  You know I don’t like to deviate too far from the original text, but let’s face it – there’s no easy way I could have written that up.  

Venom (Ex): A whipsting’s stinger injects the creature’s venom into its prey.  This venom is also effective through skin contact.  A victim must make a successful DC X Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Strength damage and 1d6 points of Dexterity damage, and be nauseated for 1d3 rounds.  The save is Constitution-based and includes a +X racial bonus.  A whipsting is immune to the effects of all whipsting venom.

Also, here is the attach attack, reworked a bit to accommodate the whipsting (this will probably require some work):

Attach (Ex): If a whipsting hits with a tentacle attack, it latches onto the opponent’s body and drives its envenomed stinger deep into the opponent.  This deals 1 point of damage per tentacle, and injects the whipsting’s venom into the opponent.  A whipsting may continue to make tentacle attacks each round that it remains attached.  An attached whipsting is effectively grappling its prey.  The whipsting loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of X, but holds on with great tenacity.  Whipstings have a +X racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached whipsting can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself.  To remove an attached whipsting through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the whipsting.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2004)

Although it would seem obvious, should we mention that creatures immune to poison are immune to the effects of the venom?


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## BOZ (Jun 22, 2004)

good point, i'll add that in.  

otherwise how do the attach and venom attacks look?  do they make sense?  too complicated or just fine?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Let me give this a try:
> 
> “Spring” Attack (Ex): When a whipsting jumps at an opponent from a coiled position, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll for the first round of combat.
> 
> ...


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2004)

I think you are on the right track.  You might want to check out the spine springer in the Mind's Eye:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20040521e

IIRC, you can't follow urls at work, so here's the relevant abilities that you might be able to mine for ideas.

Body Slam (Ex): A spine springer that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe can make a charge attack and can use its entire body to strike a target. The springer's attack bonus is +8 (+6 for the slam, +2 for charging). The body slam deals 2d6+4 points of damage.

Pounce (Ex): If a spine springer makes a charge, it can make a full attack plus a body slam.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “Spring” Attack (Ex): When a whipsting jumps at an opponent from a coiled position, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll for the first round of combat.
> 
> 
> Should we make use of this somehow? AC dodge bonus? Add it to the spring action above?
> “If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick.”



How about a +4 circumstance bonus to attack rolls?


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## BOZ (Jul 27, 2004)

I’m back!  

You know, oddly enough, I can actually access that link!  Sometimes I can link to the WotC site from work, and sometimes I can’t… this time I could!  (this does give a possible explanation why thom99 thought the whipsting should be a plant, if he was thinking of the spine springer at the time.   )

Let me see, how well does it work like this:
Spring Slam (Ex): A whipsting that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe from a coiled position can make a charge attack and attack with both of its stingers.  The whipsting gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll, making its attack bonus +X (which includes +X for the stinger and +2 for charging).

Not sure if I want to keep the pounce though…


Let me repost the other SA’s we’ve written up so far, to better keep track of things and see how it looks as a whole.  Also, I wrote the combat text:

A whipsting will usually wait for prey to approach while in a coiled position; it curls one tentacle underneath itself to form a sort of natural spring.  It leaps far in this position by suddenly straightening itself out to propel itself in a wild spring.  In this way, it surprises its foes and lands on it, making the loud, lashing whip crack for which it is known as it drives its envenomed stinger into its opponent.  It then attaches to its prey, which it continues to slap with its tentacles to drive him its stings while it tries to constrict, smother, or strangle the prey.

A whipsting facing a large or powerful foe will avoid attacking, and if necessary seeks to flee altogether by springing away.  It can use its curled tentacle to leap about like a pogo stick, in a constant pattern of bobbing and bouncing.

Attach (Ex): If a whipsting hits with a tentacle attack, it latches onto the opponent’s body and drives its stinger deep into the opponent.  This deals 1 point of damage per tentacle, and injects the whipsting’s venom into the opponent.  A whipsting may continue to make tentacle attacks each round that it remains attached.  An attached whipsting is effectively grappling its prey.  The whipsting loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of X, but holds on with great tenacity.  Whipstings have a +X racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached whipsting can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself.  To remove an attached whipsting through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the whipsting.

Venom (Ex): A whipsting’s stinger injects the creature’s venom into its prey.  This venom is also effective through skin contact.  For every successful attack with the stinger, a victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take 1d2 points of Strength damage and 1d3 points of Dexterity damage, and be stunned for 1 round.  The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +(2?) racial bonus.  A whipsting is immune to the effects of all whipsting venom, as are any creatures that are immune to poison.

- I lowered the venom damage a bit, since it is effective on every hit.  Also, the effect is better described by “stunned” than “nauseated” – and stunned is more severe than nauseated and covers everything that nausea covers, so I changed that as well.


For the whipsting’s feat, I’m starting to agree with Krishnath on just Weapon Finesse.  I was originally considering Improved Grapple, but we can give it a big enough racial bonus for Attach that that feat won’t be necessary at all.  I was also considering Multiattack, but that might also be unnecessary.  With Weapon Finesse, it would be +6 to hit with bite, and +1 to hit with stingers.  The spring jump attack bumps that up to +7 though, which it would use at every available opportunity.




> “If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick.”




Should we make use of this somehow?  AC dodge bonus?  Add it to the spring action above?



> A whipsting eats any meat it, can, living or dead, gorging itself tirelessly. Its elastic body can expand to contain meals of up to 10 times its own size.




don’t remember if I asked this before or not, but would this be a useful ability in any way or should we limit that to flavor text?


----------



## BOZ (Jul 28, 2004)

...and posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2004)

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, the following creatures from _Serpent Kingdoms_ have abilities that are similar to the whipsting's:

*Coil Slam (Ex):* A whipsnake can whip its body against an opponent (+5 melee), dealing 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit. In addition, the target must make a DC 12 Reflex save to escape the coils. Failure means the opponent lands prone in its square, and the whipsnake automatically establishes a hold on it and can constrict as if it had made a successful grapple check.

*Spring (Ex):* A tree python can gather its coils and then launch itself in a jump. The jump DCs for both long jumps and high jumps are halved, and no running start is required. Furthermore, when jumping down, the tree python takes damage as if it had dropped 90 fewer feet than it actually did.


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## BOZ (Jul 29, 2004)

why you little...   i'll give this some thought tomorrow.  in the meantime, any comments on the other stuff i posted?


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2004)

Here's comments on some of it.   You know, it's surprising how much _Serpent Kingdoms_ can help with this critter! 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A whipsting will usually wait for prey to approach while in a coiled position; it curls one tentacle underneath itself to form a sort of natural spring. It leaps far in this position by suddenly straightening itself out to propel itself in a wild spring. In this way, it surprises its foes and lands on it, making the loud, lashing whip crack for which it is known as it drives its envenomed stinger into its opponent. It then attaches to its prey, which it continues to slap with its tentacles to drive him its stings while it tries to constrict, smother, or strangle the prey.



A modified form of the coil slam ability I posted should work for this.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A whipsting facing a large or powerful foe will avoid attacking, and if necessary seeks to flee altogether by springing away. It can use its curled tentacle to leap about like a pogo stick, in a constant pattern of bobbing and bouncing.



Flavor text?  The amphisbaena and a few other creatures in SK have an unusual form of locomotion mentioned in flavor text.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Attach (Ex): If a whipsting hits with a tentacle attack, it latches onto the opponent’s body and drives its stinger deep into the opponent. This deals 1 point of damage per tentacle, and injects the whipsting’s venom into the opponent. A whipsting may continue to make tentacle attacks each round that it remains attached. An attached whipsting is effectively grappling its prey. The whipsting loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of X, but holds on with great tenacity. Whipstings have a +X racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).
> 
> An attached whipsting can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached whipsting through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the whipsting.



Lookin' good.  You might want to mention how long it remains attached, like most other creatures of this ability do.  (i.e., when it is sated, and so on).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Venom (Ex): A whipsting’s stinger injects the creature’s venom into its prey. This venom is also effective through skin contact. For every successful attack with the stinger, a victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take 1d2 points of Strength damage and 1d3 points of Dexterity damage, and be stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +(2?) racial bonus. A whipsting is immune to the effects of all whipsting venom, as are any creatures that are immune to poison.
> 
> - I lowered the venom damage a bit, since it is effective on every hit. Also, the effect is better described by “stunned” than “nauseated” – and stunned is more severe than nauseated and covers everything that nausea covers, so I changed that as well.



This one is coming along well, too.  You might want to simplify 3.5 style to thus:

*Poison (Ex):* Sting, injury or contact, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 1d2 Str, 1d3 Dex, stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +(2?) racial bonus. A whipsting is immune to the effects of all whipsting venom, as are any creatures that are immune to poison. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For the whipsting’s feat, I’m starting to agree with Krishnath on just Weapon Finesse. I was originally considering Improved Grapple, but we can give it a big enough racial bonus for Attach that that feat won’t be necessary at all. I was also considering Multiattack, but that might also be unnecessary. With Weapon Finesse, it would be +6 to hit with bite, and +1 to hit with stingers. The spring jump attack bumps that up to +7 though, which it would use at every available opportunity.



Yeah, go with Weapon Finesse.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Should we make use of this somehow? AC dodge bonus? Add it to the spring action above?
> 
> Flavor text.
> 
> ...


----------



## BOZ (Jul 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here's comments on some of it. You know, it's surprising how much Serpent Kingdoms can help with this critter!
> 
> A modified form of the coil slam ability I posted should work for this.




So, if I took this:
Spring Slam (Ex): A whipsting that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe from a coiled position can make a charge attack and attack with both of its stingers. The whipsting gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll, making its attack bonus +X (which includes +X for the stinger and +2 for charging).

And mixed it with these:
Coil Slam (Ex): A whipsnake can whip its body against an opponent (+5 melee), dealing 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit. In addition, the target must make a DC 12 Reflex save to escape the coils. Failure means the opponent lands prone in its square, and the whipsnake automatically establishes a hold on it and can constrict as if it had made a successful grapple check.

Spring (Ex): A tree python can gather its coils and then launch itself in a jump. The jump DCs for both long jumps and high jumps are halved, and no running start is required. Furthermore, when jumping down, the tree python takes damage as if it had dropped 90 fewer feet than it actually did.

I might get something a little more like this:
Spring Slam (Ex): A whipsting in a coiled position can launch itself in a jump. The jump DCs for both long jumps and high jumps are halved, and no running start is required.  A whipsting that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe this way can make a charge attack and attack with both of its stingers. The whipsting gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll, making its attack bonus +7 (which includes +1 for the stinger and +2 for charging).

Now mind you, I think it definitely needs some sort of racial bonus to Jump, to offset the mediocre Strength and the speed penalty.  



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by BOZA whipsting facing a large or powerful foe will avoid attacking, and if necessary seeks to flee altogether by springing away. It can use its curled tentacle to leap about like a pogo stick, in a constant pattern of bobbing and bouncing.
> 
> Flavor text? The amphisbaena and a few other creatures in SK have an unusual form of locomotion mentioned in flavor text.




I think the point of that passage was not mere locomotion, but a defense mechanism.  This is why I’ve been asking if this movement should provide any sort of defensive bonus.  If it’s best suited to flavor text, then I want to give it the Dodge feat anyway as a bonus.



> Lookin' good. You might want to mention how long it remains attached, like most other creatures of this ability do. (i.e., when it is sated, and so on).




true, but unlike a stirge this fella doesn’t drain anything from its opponent.  I don’t know how long it would want to remain attached.  The text doesn’t say anything about duration – maybe until prey falls prone from ability drain?



> This one is coming along well, too. You might want to simplify 3.5 style to thus:
> 
> Poison (Ex): Sting, injury or contact, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 1d2 Str, 1d3 Dex, stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +(2?) racial bonus. A whipsting is immune to the effects of all whipsting venom, as are any creatures that are immune to poison.




I don’t know about that – having all of that as initial and secondary damage for two stings per round will be pretty devastating.  MAYBE I would consider doing it this with the stunning as initial and the ability damage as secondary… I’ll think about that.



> Yeah, go with Weapon Finesse.




done and done.


----------



## Shade (Jul 30, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> So, if I took this:
> Spring Slam (Ex): A whipsting that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe from a coiled position can make a charge attack and attack with both of its stingers. The whipsting gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll, making its attack bonus +X (which includes +X for the stinger and +2 for charging).
> 
> And mixed it with these:
> ...



Yes, that seems quite good!   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Now mind you, I think it definitely needs some sort of racial bonus to Jump, to offset the mediocre Strength and the speed penalty.



Why not say that it uses its Dex modifier for Jump checks?   I believe there is a precedent, although I can't locate it at the moment.   I do know that most of the snakes in SK use their Dex mod for Climb checks, and that the muckdweller uses its Dex mod for Swim checks, so Jump doesn't seem too much of a stretch since it is the only other Str-based skill.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I think the point of that passage was not mere locomotion, but a defense mechanism. This is why I’ve been asking if this movement should provide any sort of defensive bonus. If it’s best suited to flavor text, then I want to give it the Dodge feat anyway as a bonus.



I think the Dodge feat (and possibly even Mobility) as a bonus feat would work best in this case.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> true, but unlike a stirge this fella doesn’t drain anything from its opponent. I don’t know how long it would want to remain attached. The text doesn’t say anything about duration – maybe until prey falls prone from ability drain?



Good point.   Yeah, either go with your "falls prone" text or ignore it.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I don’t know about that – having all of that as initial and secondary damage for two stings per round will be pretty devastating. MAYBE I would consider doing it this with the stunning as initial and the ability damage as secondary… I’ll think about that.



I agree.  I was just trying to reformat what you had so far.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 30, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Why not say that it uses its Dex modifier for Jump checks? I believe there is a precedent, although I can't locate it at the moment. I do know that most of the snakes in SK use their Dex mod for Climb checks, and that the muckdweller uses its Dex mod for Swim checks, so Jump doesn't seem too much of a stretch since it is the only other Str-based skill.




yes, there is definitely a precedent for such a thing, and I will definitely use it here.  That would make Jump +5 for Dex, -4 for speed, plus whatever ranks it would get (not many).  I’m thinking of giving it something additional to offset that speed penalty.  Paraphrased from the entry for the common housecat:
Skills: Whipstings have a +X racial bonus on Jump checks.  Whipstings use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks.



> I think the Dodge feat (and possibly even Mobility) as a bonus feat would work best in this case.




I agree on Mobility, but I worry that it might be a bit much.



> Good point. Yeah, either go with your "falls prone" text or ignore it.




I just went with this for combat flavor text: “It will usually remain attached until that prey becomes helpless from ability damage, or until attacked successfully by another opponent.”  If it survives the first hit, it will be heavily damaged right?



> I agree. I was just trying to reformat what you had so far.




I think I’ll keep my Venom writeup the same then.


----------



## Shade (Jul 30, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yes, there is definitely a precedent for such a thing, and I will definitely use it here. That would make Jump +5 for Dex, -4 for speed, plus whatever ranks it would get (not many). I’m thinking of giving it something additional to offset that speed penalty. Paraphrased from the entry for the common housecat:
> Skills: Whipstings have a +X racial bonus on Jump checks. Whipstings use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks.



They definitely warrant a racial bonus.  I'd suggest +8 or more, since it is very important to the creature's concept. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I agree on Mobility, but I worry that it might be a bit much.



Fair enough. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I just went with this for combat flavor text: “It will usually remain attached until that prey becomes helpless from ability damage, or until attacked successfully by another opponent.” If it survives the first hit, it will be heavily damaged right?



Sounds good. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I think I’ll keep my Venom writeup the same then.



You're the boss.  (or is that BOZZ)?


----------



## BOZ (Jul 31, 2004)

Items remaining:

It has 4 skill ranks.  I’m thinking these should be given to Listen and Spot.  Jump might be just fine as-is.  That would give it:
Skills: Climb +5, Jump +9, Listen +2, Spot +2
Skills: Whipstings have a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks.  Whipstings use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks.

Also, we need to figure out what racial bonus attach gives it to grapple.  Keep in mind that it currently has a –4 modifier due to size, and +0 each from BAB and Str.  Stirges have a +1 modifier due to their +12 bonus from attach – size penalty and Str penalty impact this one a lot.  A +12 bonus to the whipsting would give it a +8 grapple bonus overall – this may or may not be too much.  A +8 bonus might be just fine, but I wouldn’t want it to be any less than a +6 bonus.

It needs a CR – we could give it ½ like the stirge, though it we decide the whipsting’s a little tougher, we could make that higher.


----------



## thom99 (Aug 1, 2004)

WHEW!  Just read thru the last 4 pages - you guys *rock*!!   

I personally don't have a problem with the whipsting being a CR1 or so critter, it's got a lot of neat abilities and feats; and if that makes you feel more willing to keep the (net) +8 grapple bonus - so be it!  

THANKS to both of you (especially Shade - who didn't particularly care for this guy) for all the hard work!

thomas cooper


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Items remaining:
> 
> It has 4 skill ranks. I’m thinking these should be given to Listen and Spot. Jump might be just fine as-is. That would give it:
> Skills: Climb +5, Jump +9, Listen +2, Spot +2
> Skills: Whipstings have a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks. Whipstings use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks.



That sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, we need to figure out what racial bonus attach gives it to grapple. Keep in mind that it currently has a –4 modifier due to size, and +0 each from BAB and Str. Stirges have a +1 modifier due to their +12 bonus from attach – size penalty and Str penalty impact this one a lot. A +12 bonus to the whipsting would give it a +8 grapple bonus overall – this may or may not be too much. A +8 bonus might be just fine, but I wouldn’t want it to be any less than a +6 bonus.
> 
> It needs a CR – we could give it ½ like the stirge, though it we decide the whipsting’s a little tougher, we could make that higher.



+8 seems awfully high for a CR 1 creature.  A good 1st-level fighter type is going to have around a +5 grapple bonus (+1 BAB, +4 Str).   Combined with its venom, I'd say that would warrant a further CR boost.  To keep it at CR 1, I'd vote for +6.


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## BOZ (Aug 2, 2004)

No problem thom – glad to be of service.  

Shade, keep in mind that a stirge, with less than 1 CR has a +12 racial bonus due to its attach ability.  If I give the whipsting a +6 racial bonus, it will have a total grapple bonus of only +2.


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2004)

Oops!  What I meant to say was a _total_ grapple bonus of +6 (which would be a +10 racial bonus).


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## BOZ (Aug 2, 2004)

MUCH better.    now that i like.  updating in homebrews, with that being the case...


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2004)

I picture them as closer to 40 pounds than 70.

Venom should be Con-based, giving it a save DC of 10 + 1/2 HD + 4 Con + 2 racial.  I can never remember...does 1/2 of 1 for save DCs equal 0 or 1?  Also, doesn't a DC of 16 or 17 for poison that powerful seem a bit rough for CR 1?   I'd recommend ditching the racial bonus, or upping the CR.

For stingwings, how about an additional +8 racial bonus to Jump checks?


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2004)

I forget where I got that weight range (of course, it’s been awhile), but keep in mind; the tentacles are huge and probably weigh a lot more than the tiny body.

As far as determining DCs, ½ of 1 = 0 as far as I’ve seen.  “round down” remember?    that would make the venom DC 16.  you really think that’s too powerful?  “The prey must successfully save vs. poison with a -2 penalty to avoid the venom's effects.” indicates a tougher than normal poison, which was probably meant to really sock it to victims.  Of course, we do have it with a high Con anyway, and multiple hits with this venom can be really devastating considering it can strike twice with it in the same round…


----------



## Shade (Aug 3, 2004)

...and the characters with the best Fort saves at 1st-level are gonna have a bonus of around +7 (assuming fighter with 18 Con) is only gonna make that save around 60% of the time, while the majority of characters will fail around 70-80% of the time.  Ouch!

A random sampling of CR 1 critter's save DCs:  
Medium viper - DC 11
Medium monstrous scorpion - DC 13
Medium monstrous spider- DC 12
Quasit (CR 2) - DC 13


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2004)

allright, fair enough.    i'm updating it in homebrews; is this one done?


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2004)

I think it is finished.   Now can we resume the linnorms (when this thread is picked up again, of course)?


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## BOZ (Aug 4, 2004)

I promise nothing.    but I do like to finish what I start, so just maybe.


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## thom99 (Aug 5, 2004)

*Yes!*  I bow to Shade who has with great patience put up with this "weird critter" for so long!  Thank you both for all the hard work; now I'm looking forward to ambushing my party with one of these suckers!

thom


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## BOZ (Aug 5, 2004)

Thank you for your patience!  I hope everything goes as planned.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2004)

thom99 said:
			
		

> *Yes!* I bow to Shade who has with great patience put up with this "weird critter" for so long! Thank you both for all the hard work; now I'm looking forward to ambushing my party with one of these suckers!
> 
> thom



No problem.  It was a nice diversion.  And it is one "weird critter"!

Have fun ambushing your party.  Let us know how it goes.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 14, 2004)

anyone know if the dune stalker from MC14 has been converted yet?


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2004)

Yep.  MM2.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 14, 2004)

dang.  durn.  

instead, then maybe i'll do the fire falcon from the same book.


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2004)

I don't think that one's been done yet.


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2004)

then it's all ours.    this one should be pretty simple.  this would be excellent as a familiar.

Falcon, Fire
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any desert, mountain or tundra
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Family
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Q
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 2-6
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 3, Fl 36 (C)
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3/1-2/1-2/1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Fire
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to fire-based attacks
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (2'6" wingspan, 8" body)
MORALE: Steady (11), Fanatic (18) when guarding young
XP VALUE: 270

The fire falcon is a small russet-colored raptor, found in areas well away from those settled by man. It seeks only to be left in peace by large creatures, including man.

Combat: Fire falcons determine their tactics in combat depending on the size of their opponent. Normal prey, such as rabbits and small birds, are simply grabbed in their talons and attacked with the beak. Larger creatures, like men or horses, are generally attacked first at long range, in an attempt to drive them off. The ranged attack of a fire falcon is to discharge two highly flammable spheres from its wingtips in the general area of the intruder. They explode on contact with anything, doing 1-6 points of damage (no save, but magical fire resistance halves the damage) to all in a 10' radius. Thus, it is not necessary for the fire falcon to make a successful attack roll in order to damage a party. Each fire falcon can make this attack four times per day. If the sphere actually hits an adventurer, or their mount, the burning substance sticks to them, doing an additional 1-6 points of damage in the next round, and 1-3 the round after that, before going out.

Only if it cannot drive off the intruders will the fire falcon attack physically. Even then, it will only attack if there are young in the nest and the intruders are approaching. If it must use physical means, it will attack first with the talons, which rake for 1-3 points of damage each, This is followed by a beak attack, for 1-2 point, of damage, and buffeting from the creature's wings, which causes a further 1-2 points of damage per wing. In addition, any mounted opponent which is buffeted must make a Dexterity check with a -4 penalty or fall from his/her mount, This can be fatal it the mount is airborne. The fire falcon's talon attacks will be directed at the face or hair of its target, so armor will not help unless a full face helmet is being worn. Mounted targets get no Dexterity bonus to their Armor Class during these attacks. The fire falcon will pick a target with long, flowing hair in preference to one fully clad in metal. Fire falcons cannot he harmed by any form of fire, magical or otherwise. They are also immune to magic missile.

Habitat/Society: Fire falcons tend to form small flocks of 3 or 4 families. They build their nests high up on mountains if possible, or else, welt hidden among tufts of tundra grass. When encountered in deserts, they will always have their nest in a nearby mesa. Fire falcons like to line their nests with shiny objects, and that is where any treasure they have will be found, The normal food for a fire falcon is small rodents, and they consume about half their body weight each clay in mice, rabbits, shrews, and other such creatures. The normal flight range of a fire falcon is tip to forty miles in a single day. Fire falcons, can soar on thermals for hours without moving their wings, and can see a field mouse moving from 4 miles away.

While their normal flying speed is around 12 miles per hour, fire falcons can reach speeds in excess of 130 miles per hour in a dive on their prey.

The normal lifespan of a fire falcon is 28 years. For the first six months of its life, it will remain in the nest, being fed by its parents. After this time, it is taught to fly and to hunt, and to become a contributing member of the flock.

Fire falcons only lay one, or rarely two, eggs in a season. They are only able to breed from the age of 3 years until 27 years. All the birds in a flock will protect the young, whether their own or another pair's.

Fire falcons mote for life, To avoid inbreeding, females will leave the nest at two years of age to seek out a mate in another area. Males will stay in the area where they were hatched, waiting for females to come from another eyrie.

Ecology: The fire falcon is a raptor, with no natural enemy, save mankind. Hatchlings can be trained by falconers, and a few wizards have been known to have fire falcons as familiars. They can prove useful in keeping unwanted rodent populations at manageable levels.


some preliminary stats for the fire falcon:

*Fire Falcon*
Diminutive Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 1d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 0 ft
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (1d4-X) and bite +X melee (1d3-X) and 2 wings +X melee (1d3-X)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft/2 1/2 ft
Special Attacks: diving attack, fire spheres, wing buffet
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft, immunity to fire, immunity to magic missile, low-light vision, (morale bonus when guarding young?)
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 2, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 4
Feats: 1

Environment: Any desert and mountains
Organization: Family (2-6) or flock (6-24)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: (Q?)
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Diminutive)
Level Adjustment: +X (cohort)

I was thinking of giving them the fire subtype, but the text made no mention of them being vulnerable to cold ? in fact, it suggested they often live in tundra.


----------



## Shade (Dec 20, 2004)

I agree...I think the Fire subtype would be detrimental in this case.   

I think its feat should be Flyby Attack.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 20, 2004)

not Multiattack?


----------



## Shade (Dec 20, 2004)

Thank goodness for bonus feats.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Thank goodness for bonus feats.




indeed!


----------



## Shade (Dec 20, 2004)

Here are the stats for a hawk:  Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6.  It's size Tiny, so fire falcon should have higher Dex and lower Str.

Like so?  Str 4, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 21, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here are the stats for a hawk: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6. It's size Tiny, so fire falcon should have higher Dex and lower Str.
> 
> Like so? Str 4, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6.




yes, they are smaller, so that works just fine.  Here is the rest of its abilities:

MORALE: Steady (11), Fanatic (18) when guarding young

The ranged attack of a fire falcon is to discharge two highly flammable spheres from its wingtips in the general area of the intruder. They explode on contact with anything, doing 1-6 points of damage (no save, but magical fire resistance halves the damage) to all in a 10' radius. Thus, it is not necessary for the fire falcon to make a successful attack roll in order to damage a party. Each fire falcon can make this attack four times per day. If the sphere actually hits an adventurer, or their mount, the burning substance sticks to them, doing an additional 1-6 points of damage in the next round, and 1-3 the round after that, before going out.

If it must use physical means, it will attack first with the talons, which rake for 1-3 points of damage each, This is followed by a beak attack, for 1-2 point, of damage, and buffeting from the creature's wings, which causes a further 1-2 points of damage per wing. In addition, any mounted opponent which is buffeted must make a Dexterity check with a -4 penalty or fall from his/her mount, This can be fatal it the mount is airborne. The fire falcon's talon attacks will be directed at the face or hair of its target, so armor will not help unless a full face helmet is being worn. Mounted targets get no Dexterity bonus to their Armor Class during these attacks. The fire falcon will pick a target with long, flowing hair in preference to one fully clad in metal. 

They are also immune to magic missile.

The normal flight range of a fire falcon is tip to forty miles in a single day. Fire falcons, can soar on thermals for hours without moving their wings, and can see a field mouse moving from 4 miles away.

While their normal flying speed is around 12 miles per hour, fire falcons can reach speeds in excess of 130 miles per hour in a dive on their prey.

Hatchlings can be trained by falconers, and a few wizards have been known to have fire falcons as familiars.


----------



## Shade (Dec 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> MORALE: Steady (11), Fanatic (18) when guarding young



Hmmm...perhaps a morale bonus to saves and attack rolls when its young are threatened?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The ranged attack of a fire falcon is to discharge two highly flammable spheres from its wingtips in the general area of the intruder. They explode on contact with anything, doing 1-6 points of damage (no save, but magical fire resistance halves the damage) to all in a 10' radius. Thus, it is not necessary for the fire falcon to make a successful attack roll in order to damage a party. Each fire falcon can make this attack four times per day. If the sphere actually hits an adventurer, or their mount, the burning substance sticks to them, doing an additional 1-6 points of damage in the next round, and 1-3 the round after that, before going out.



Flammable Spheres (Su):  Four times per day, a fire falcon can discharge two highly flammable spheres from its wingtips.  These spheres explode in a 10-foot-radius, and deal 1d6 points of fire damage. On the round following a burst, the targets takes an additional 1d6 points of damage, and an additional 1d3 points of damage on the round thereafter. If desired, the targets can use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this additional damage. Extinguishing the flames requires a DC 15 Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target a +2 bonus on the save. Leaping into a lake or magically extinguishing the flames automatically smothers the fire.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> If it must use physical means, it will attack first with the talons, which rake for 1-3 points of damage each, This is followed by a beak attack, for 1-2 point, of damage, and buffeting from the creature's wings, which causes a further 1-2 points of damage per wing. In addition, any mounted opponent which is buffeted must make a Dexterity check with a -4 penalty or fall from his/her mount, This can be fatal it the mount is airborne. The fire falcon's talon attacks will be directed at the face or hair of its target, so armor will not help unless a full face helmet is being worn. Mounted targets get no Dexterity bonus to their Armor Class during these attacks. The fire falcon will pick a target with long, flowing hair in preference to one fully clad in metal.



Hmmm...perhaps some special ability, similar to rend, where if both wing buffet attacks hit, the victim loses its Dex bonus to AC and takes a penalty on Ride checks?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> They are also immune to magic missile.



Immunity/resistance to force effects?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The normal flight range of a fire falcon is tip to forty miles in a single day. Fire falcons, can soar on thermals for hours without moving their wings, and can see a field mouse moving from 4 miles away.



I'm not sure if the overland flight range matters, unless it is significantly higher than what it should have for its speed.

Skills: Fire falcons have a +X racial bonus on Spot checks.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> While their normal flying speed is around 12 miles per hour, fire falcons can reach speeds in excess of 130 miles per hour in a dive on their prey.



Modifying the cheetah's sprint ability:

Dive (Ex): Once per hour, a fire falcon can move ten times its normal speed (X feet) when it makes a flying charge attack from a higher altitude than its target.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Hatchlings can be trained by falconers, and a few wizards have been known to have fire falcons as familiars.



A fire falcon can be acquired as a familiar by a Xth-level arcane spellcaster with the Improved Familiar feat. 

Training A Fire Falcon 

Training a fire falcon requires X weeks of work and a DC X Handle Animal check. 

Fire falcon eggs are worth X gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth X gp each. Professional trainers charge X gp to rear or train a fire falcon.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 21, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...perhaps a morale bonus to saves and attack rolls when its young are threatened?




Easy enough…

“Fierce Defender” (Ex): A fire falcon that is guarding its young gains a +6 morale bonus to Will saves and attack rolls when its young are threatened.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Flammable Spheres (Su): Four times per day, a fire falcon can discharge two highly flammable spheres from its wingtips. These spheres explode in a 10-foot-radius, and deal 1d6 points of fire damage. On the round following a burst, the targets takes an additional 1d6 points of damage, and an additional 1d3 points of damage on the round thereafter. If desired, the targets can use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this additional damage. Extinguishing the flames requires a DC 15 Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target a +2 bonus on the save. Leaping into a lake or magically extinguishing the flames automatically smothers the fire.




Cool – where did you get some of that?  From the PHB/SRD?  Altering it just slightly for clarity (and to point out when the spheres explode):

Flame Spheres (Su): Four times per day, a fire falcon can discharge two highly flammable spheres, one from each of its wingtips. When they hit anything, these spheres explode in a 10-foot-radius, and deal 1d6 points of fire damage. On the round following a burst, the targets take an additional 1d6 points of damage, and an additional 1d3 points of damage on the next round. If desired, the targets can use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this additional damage. Extinguishing the flames requires a DC 15 Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target a +2 bonus on the save. Leaping into a lake or magically extinguishing the flames automatically smothers the fire.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...perhaps some special ability, similar to rend, where if both wing buffet attacks hit, the victim loses its Dex bonus to AC and takes a penalty on Ride checks?




Not really similar to rend, but I see where you are coming from.

Buffet (Ex): If a fire falcon hits with both wing attacks, it slaps its target in the face, causing the target to lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, even if it normally cannot lose the bonus.  If the target is mounted, it also loses its Dex bonus to Ride checks, and must make a DC 15? Ride check to stay mounted.  The DC for the check increases by +2 for every additional fire falcon that is buffeting the target.  If the target is blind, or wearing a full face helmed, it is immune to the buffet.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Immunity/resistance to force effects?




maybe… but I’m not sure I want to give them that much.  Imagine it is wearing a brooch of shielding.    we can reverse the will o’ wisp’s vulnerability.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if the overland flight range matters, unless it is significantly higher than what it should have for its speed.




I really don’t know.  how do we determine whether a Dimunitive creature with a fly speed of 90 can fly 40 miles in a single day?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Skills: Fire falcons have a +X racial bonus on Spot checks.




Does that cover the ability to see up to 4 miles away?  Maybe more like an eagle with its +8 bonus?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Modifying the cheetah's sprint ability:
> 
> Dive (Ex): Once per hour, a fire falcon can move ten times its normal speed (X feet) when it makes a flying charge attack from a higher altitude than its target.




that’s cool.  10 times would be 900 then wouldn’t it?


----------



## Shade (Dec 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Easy enough…
> 
> “Fierce Defender” (Ex): A fire falcon that is guarding its young gains a +6 morale bonus to Will saves and attack rolls when its young are threatened.



Excellent.  I was thinking "Parental Guardian", but yours is much better.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Cool – where did you get some of that? From the PHB/SRD? Altering it just slightly for clarity (and to point out when the spheres explode):
> 
> Flame Spheres (Su): Four times per day, a fire falcon can discharge two highly flammable spheres, one from each of its wingtips. When they hit anything, these spheres explode in a 10-foot-radius, and deal 1d6 points of fire damage. On the round following a burst, the targets take an additional 1d6 points of damage, and an additional 1d3 points of damage on the next round. If desired, the targets can use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this additional damage. Extinguishing the flames requires a DC 15 Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target a +2 bonus on the save. Leaping into a lake or magically extinguishing the flames automatically smothers the fire.



I got it from alchemist's fire.  

We should probably mention a range on it.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Not really similar to rend, but I see where you are coming from.



Buffet (Ex): If a fire falcon hits with both wing attacks, it slaps its target in the face, causing the target to lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, even if it normally cannot lose the bonus. If the target is mounted, it also loses its Dex bonus to Ride checks, and must make a DC 15? Ride check to stay mounted. The DC for the check increases by +2 for every additional fire falcon that is buffeting the target. If the target is blind, or wearing a full face helmed, it is immune to the buffet.[/QUOTE] 
Lookin' good.  The normal DC to "stay in the saddle" is DC 5, so we could just state that they take a -10 penalty instead, for the same net result. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> maybe… but I’m not sure I want to give them that much. Imagine it is wearing a brooch of shielding.  we can reverse the will o’ wisp’s vulnerability.



That's cool.  I've never understood how something could resist magic missles, but not other force effects, but c'est la vie.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I really don’t know. how do we determine whether a Dimunitive creature with a fly speed of 90 can fly 40 miles in a single day?



African or European?   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Does that cover the ability to see up to 4 miles away? Maybe more like an eagle with its +8 bonus?



That's all the other birds of prey have, even though they can see great distances, so I think it should suffice.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that’s cool. 10 times would be 900 then wouldn’t it?



That's 180 squares for you minatures-using folks.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 23, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Excellent. I was thinking "Parental Guardian", but yours is much better.




you know what’s even better? Fierce Guardian.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I got it from alchemist's fire.
> 
> We should probably mention a range on it.




good choice – much like alchemist’s fire, we have a sticky burning substance.  As for a range, there is none given in the text, so maybe 60 feet or 100 feet?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Lookin' good. The normal DC to "stay in the saddle" is DC 5, so we could just state that they take a -10 penalty instead, for the same net result.




Like so?  “If the target is mounted, it also loses its Dex bonus to Ride checks, and must make a Ride check with a –10 penalty to stay mounted.”



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That's cool. I've never understood how something could resist magic missles, but not other force effects, but c'est la vie.




well, here’s the thing… I don’t want it to be “immune to force effects” since this makes it sound like it could run through a wall of force, for example.  Let’s try this on for size:

Immune to Force Damage (Ex): A fire falcon takes no damage from force effects, such as a magic missile generated by a spell or spell-like ability.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> African or European?




so its maximum flight range is about that important?  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That's all the other birds of prey have, even though they can see great distances, so I think it should suffice.




fair enough.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That's 180 squares for you minatures-using folks.




good thing most people have maps that big.


----------



## Shade (Dec 27, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> you know what’s even better? Fierce Guardian.



Yeah! 




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> good choice – much like alchemist’s fire, we have a sticky burning substance. As for a range, there is none given in the text, so maybe 60 feet or 100 feet?



60 should suffice.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Like so? “If the target is mounted, it also loses its Dex bonus to Ride checks, and must make a Ride check with a –10 penalty to stay mounted.”



Indeed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> well, here’s the thing… I don’t want it to be “immune to force effects” since this makes it sound like it could run through a wall of force, for example. Let’s try this on for size:
> 
> Immune to Force Damage (Ex): A fire falcon takes no damage from force effects, such as a magic missile generated by a spell or spell-like ability.



Good point.  That should cover it.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> so its maximum flight range is about that important?



Methinks.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 28, 2004)

Good deal.  Posting in homebrews... really just need to work on the flavor text.


----------



## Shade (Dec 28, 2004)

Attack:  Claw +2 melee (1d4-3)

Skills:  (assuming 4 ranks of spot):  Hide +16, Jump -15, Spot +14

LA:  +2 (cohort)?

Familar:  5th-level wizard (as Small elementals) or 7th-level (as mephits)?  I'm thinking its closer to a mephit.

CR 1?  The critter is physically weak, but it has nice mobility and the fire attack is potent.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Familar: 5th-level wizard (as Small elementals) or 7th-level (as mephits)? I'm thinking its closer to a mephit.




I'm thinking it's a bit closer to the small elemental than to a mephit. i basically agree with the rest of that though.


----------



## Shade (Dec 29, 2004)

Fair enough.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 2, 2005)

Flavor text:

_This is a small, russet-colored raptor.  It appears to be a normal bird of prey, otherwise._

The fire falcon is a small carnivorous bird that lives in distant, unsettled areas.  It prefers to be left in peace by larger creatures, including humanoids.  Fire falcons tend to form small flocks of 3 or 4 families, and all the birds in a flock will protect the young of any other falcon. They build their nest high up on mountains if possible, or will hidden among tufts of tundra grass or in a desert mesa.  They like to line their nests with shiny objects, which fascinate them.

A fire falcon is 8 inches in length, with a wingspan of 2 ½ feet, (and weighs about X pounds).

COMBAT
Fire falcons prey on small creatures such as rabbits, rodents, and other smaller birds, which can be dispatched with their normal attacks.  These raptors are not aggressive, but will always attack to drive off larger intruders. Anything bigger than a fire falcon is attacked with their flame spheres at first.

If this tactic proves unsuccessful, the falcon will attack, providing the intruders continue approaching while there are young in the nest.  If necessary, the fire falcon will rake with its talons and use its bite and wing attacks.  It directs these attacks at the opponent's face and hair, preferring targets with long, flowing hair over those fully clad in metal.


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2005)

I'd drop the ", otherwise" from the italicized description.  The rest of the flavor text looks good.

I found that a peregrine falcon ranges from 15-18 inches with a wing span of 37-43 inches. The 
male peregrine falcon weighs 20-26 ounces, and the female weighs 30-45 ounces.

Since this fella is shorter with a smaller wingspan, I'd imagine it would weigh only about a pound.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 3, 2005)

Cool.    updating in homebrews.  How do we calculate the training times and such?


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Cool.  updating in homebrews. How do we calculate the training times and such?



According to the Handle Animal skill, but the DC is 5 higher.  Otherwise, it looks like the training times are the same.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 3, 2005)

so, the DC would be 20?  where does it say how many weeks it takes to train a creature like this?

any guess as to the price of eggs and young and such?  would giant owls and other trainable avian creatures provide a good example?


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so, the DC would be 20? where does it say how many weeks it takes to train a creature like this?



It depends on the purpose.  For example, guarding is DC 25 and takes four weeks, while hunting is DC 25 and takes six weeks.  Training it for performance is DC 20 and takes five weeks.  (These include the +5 to the DC for being a non-animal with animal intelligence).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> any guess as to the price of eggs and young and such? would giant owls and other trainable avian creatures provide a good example?



That's probably a good place to start, although the fire falcon should be much cheaper than a giant owl due to its small size.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 4, 2005)

Here is the relevant text from the giant owl (giant eagle has identical values):

Training a giant owl requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. 

Giant owl eggs are worth 2,500 gp apiece on the open market, while chicks are worth 4,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a giant owl.

Griffons and hippogriffs have the same training text, but griffons have increased values for the price of young and hippogriffs have decreased prices for young.  Spider eaters also have similar information. I didn’t notice any other creatures with training information.

Perhaps we can set the fire falcon’s young prices… 10% of a giant owl?  50%?


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Here is the relevant text from the giant owl (giant eagle has identical values):
> 
> Training a giant owl requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check.



Note that this is to train the giant owl/eagle for combat riding, which the Handle Animal skill says takes six weeks and a DC 20 (plus an additional +5 for these being magical beasts) Handle Animal check.   Since the fire falcon can't bear a rider (unless it's a really wee one), we'll have a different DC and training time.

Here are the roles I can see the fire falcon being trained for:

Fighting (DC 20): An animal trained to engage in combat knows the tricks attack, down, and stay. Training an animal for fighting takes three weeks.

Guarding (DC 20): An animal trained to guard knows the tricks attack, defend, down, and guard. Training an animal for guarding takes four weeks.

Hunting (DC 20): An animal trained for hunting knows the tricks attack, down, fetch, heel, seek, and track. Training an animal for hunting takes six weeks.

Performance (DC 15): An animal trained for performance knows the tricks come, fetch, heel, perform, and stay. Training an animal for performance takes five weeks.






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Giant owl eggs are worth 2,500 gp apiece on the open market, while chicks are worth 4,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a giant owl.
> 
> Griffons and hippogriffs have the same training text, but griffons have increased values for the price of young and hippogriffs have decreased prices for young. Spider eaters also have similar information. I didn’t notice any other creatures with training information.
> 
> Perhaps we can set the fire falcon’s young prices… 10% of a giant owl? 50%?



I thought I'd found a pattern, that the price of young equals HD x 1,000 gp and 1,000 gp to rear or train a magical beast.  But the pegasus and spider eater break this rule.  Also, I can't find a pattern on the price of eggs.   Here are a bunch of magical beasts from the MM...see if  you can figure out the pattern.

Griffon eggs are worth 3,500 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 7,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,500 gp to rear or train a griffon. (7 HD, Int 5)

Hippogriff eggs are worth 2,000 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 3,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a hippogriff.  (3 HD, Int 2)

Giant eagle eggs are worth 2,500 gp apiece on the open market, while chicks are worth 4,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a giant eagle.  (4 HD, Int 10)

Giant owl eggs are worth 2,500 gp apiece on the open market, while chicks are worth 4,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a giant owl.  (4 HD, Int 10)

Pegasus eggs are worth 2,000 gp each on the open market, while young are worth 3,000 gp per head. Pegasi mature at the same rate as horses. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a pegasus, which serves a good or neutral master with absolute faithfulness for life.  (4 HD, Int 10)

Spider eater eggs are worth 2,000 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 3,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 3,000 gp to rear or train a spider eater.  (4 HD, Int 2)


----------



## BOZ (Jan 4, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Note that this is to train the giant owl/eagle for combat riding, which the Handle Animal skill says takes six weeks and a DC 20 (plus an additional +5 for these being magical beasts) Handle Animal check. Since the fire falcon can't bear a rider (unless it's a really wee one), we'll have a different DC and training time.




ah… it pays to read entire paragraphs instead of just one sentence.    well, that being the case, have you seen any other instances of note that provide information on training creatures or selling young aside from these potential steed creatures?  Anything that gives info on just having a creature as a trained pet?

If we decide to provide some information here in ways that it hasn’t been listed before, I’d say hunting training would be the most valuable, especially since it is mentioned in the original flavor text.  Also, I could see training as a guard could be useful.  Fighting would be limited, since the bird isn’t big on melee fighting, and performance would be OK at best since raptors are often trained for this sort of thing.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I thought I'd found a pattern, that the price of young equals HD x 1,000 gp and 1,000 gp to rear or train a magical beast. But the pegasus and spider eater break this rule. Also, I can't find a pattern on the price of eggs. Here are a bunch of magical beasts from the MM...see if you can figure out the pattern.




Well then, we could just ignore the pegasus and spider eater since they are less avian than the other critters.   how about:

Fire falcon eggs are worth 750 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 1,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a fire falcon.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ah… it pays to read entire paragraphs instead of just one sentence.  well, that being the case, have you seen any other instances of note that provide information on training creatures or selling young aside from these potential steed creatures? Anything that gives info on just having a creature as a trained pet?
> 
> If we decide to provide some information here in ways that it hasn’t been listed before, I’d say hunting training would be the most valuable, especially since it is mentioned in the original flavor text. Also, I could see training as a guard could be useful. Fighting would be limited, since the bird isn’t big on melee fighting, and performance would be OK at best since raptors are often trained for this sort of thing.



Here's one:

Training a thudhunter as a hunting or guard beast requires a successful Handle Animal check (DC 22 young, DC 29 adult). Thudhunter young are worth 200 gp on the open market. Professional trainers charge 500 gp to rear or train a thudhunter.

...and another...

A deep hound serves readily as a mount or guard animal, but it requires training. Training a deep hound requires a different amount of time depending on the specific training it undergoes. See the Handle Animal skill description for more information on training and handling animals and magical beasts. Riding a deep hound requires an exotic saddle. 




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Well then, we could just ignore the pegasus and spider eater since they are less avian than the other critters.  how about_:
> 
> Fire falcon eggs are worth 750 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 1,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a fire falcon.



Works for me!


----------



## BOZ (Jan 4, 2005)

where are those two creatures from?


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2005)

Thudhunter is from _Arms and Equipment Guide_, and the deephound is from _Races of Stone_.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 4, 2005)

No foolin!    in that case, since the deep hound entry is more recent and seems better suited to the fire falcon…

A fire falcon serves readily as a hunting or guard animal, but it requires training. Training a fire falcon requires a different amount of time depending on the specific training it undergoes. See the Handle Animal skill description for more information on training and handling animals and magical beasts.


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2005)

Works for me!


----------



## BOZ (Jan 5, 2005)

Good deal!    updating again…


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2005)

Throw Jump -15 on skills line, and I think we can call it a day.


----------



## Shade (Feb 28, 2005)

Hereby requesting that we get back to finishing up the remaining linnorms when the next opportunity arises.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 28, 2005)

i suppose i can't put that one off forever...


----------



## Shade (Feb 28, 2005)

Your past has a way of catching up to you...


----------



## BOZ (Mar 11, 2005)

inserting this one first, because i said so - muhahahahaha!  

Faux Faerie
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate/Forest
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 100% (see below)
SIZE: T (1-2' tall)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 2,000

The faux faerie has a mission and goal to its life: to misdirect and he to as many creatures, as possible. It is quite happy in its life's work, and delights in finding new and novel ways to lie and mislead others. It has almost no powers of its own, but its special form of magic resistance makes it seem as if it has great magical powers.

Because it is essentially a magic-based creature, the faux faerie can appear to those who view it as one of almost any number of fairy-like creatures, such as sprites, brownies, pixies, leprechauns, or woodland fairies. It will generally take the form of whichever type of fairy-creature is most common to the locale in which it is currently travelling. The faux faerie is an excellent mimic, conversant in all of the languages of the creatures it portrays, and is virtually impossible to detect as an imposter, except that it does not possess the innate magical powers and natural abilities of the creatures it poses as. Thus, for example, it can appear and sound like a leprechaun, but cannot play the magical tricks that come so easily to such creatures.

The faux faerie spends its day changing trail markers and sign posts, creating false and circling trails, and giving inaccurate directions and information to passersby. It will even create trails to areas in which such natural dangers as quicksand, rockslides, and dangerous pits abound. It is a congenital liar, but crafty in mixing lies, half-truths, and partial truths, so as to misdirect and confuse without its lies being noticeable or obvious. Once having led someone astray, the faux faerie will often follow behind them at a distance to laugh at their plight, sometimes changing form to encounter them yet again.

Combat: The lies and deceit of the faux faerie are one of its most potent weapons, and more than one adventuring party has been misdirected to its death by these pernicious little creatures. But the most unusual feature of combat with these strange creatures is their complete and special magic resistance, which gives them total protection from all forms of magical spell attack. An invisible aura of absorbent and reactive magic surrounds them so that when a spell is cast upon them, the spell is itself absorbed into their aura, where it joins dozens of other spells, circling the faux faerie in a magical frenzy. It the aura is "full" at the time a spell is cast upon the faux faerie, the spell is still absorbed, but a random spell captured earlier is expelled from the aura back toward the caster of the spell upon the faux faerie. This can happen multiple times in the same round and cannot be disrupted by any physical attack. Thus, without components or motions of casting, a faux faerie may appear to have great innate magical abilities, as it will cast out in any round the same number of spells which may be cast upon it that round, without suffering spell disruption by any means.

It a faux faerie is burnt in its dormant state (see Habitat/Society below), the results can be disastrous, as the aura is disrupted and all of the stored spells are released at the rate of six per round until the aura is fully emptied or the burning of the faux faerie is put out.

The number of spells which can be held by the aura of a faux faerie ranges front 24 to 48, and does not change over the life of the faux faerie. Until the aura fills, spells are merely captured by it, and no spells are expelled in return. Once full, the aura captures and randomly expels spells on a one-for-one basis. The spells absorbed and expelled may be either magical or clerical in nature and are not limited by school or discipline. The spells which a faux faerie has stored in its aura would normally include a variety of spells which might have been cast upon it (by both friendly and unfriendly parties), including such spells as know alignment, charm, magic missile, lightning bolt, etc.

Habitat/Society: During daylight hours, the faux faerie goes about its novel business, snacking on berries and nuts. An hour before dusk, the faux faerie will seek out a suitable fallen branch or log, three or four feet long at most, into which it melds itself for its night's rest, and becomes a part of the wood itself - much as a dryad will meld into her host tree for rest and replenishment. The faux faerie remains in the wood until an hour after dawn. When infused with a faux faerie, the wood of the branch or log will take on an extremely fault blue glow front the dweomer of the magical aura of the faux faerie. This glow, which is indistinguishable from the blue fox fire glow which sometimes occurs in naturally decomposing wood, cannot be seen at all if it is still light or dusk or if there is a light source (e.g., torch, lamp, lantern, or continual light gem) in use when the wood is viewed. Thus, gathering wood for a fire at dusk can be a risky proposition if a faux faerie is about. If the wood infused with a dormant faux faerie is burnt, the faux faerie will take normal damage from the fire, and its aura is explosively disrupted as described above.

If, however, the wood containing the faux faerie is chopped or cut (and not burnt), only six random spells will be discharged. Two faux faeries will emerge from the pieces of wood that morning, each with half the hit points and half the stored spells of the original faux faerie. They will remain in this immature stage for two weeks, after which their hit points and spell capacities will double. This is the only known means of procreation for the faux faerie.

Ecology. A faux faerie can be a formidable storage battery for high-level protective and healing spells, or ever for offensive spells. If captured before its aura is full, the faux faerie can be "fed" whichever spells are desired. For example, a cleric could cast several high-level cures on the faux faerie until its aura was filled or nearly filled with such spells. This would allow any spellcaster to receive such a cure during battle by casting a low-level spell on the creature, receiving the expelled spell in return. Obviously, there are many risks involved. First, the hazards of trying to determine whether or not a faux faerie's aura is "full" should be obvious, as well as the effort involved in capturing the creature. Second, as low-level spells are cast upon it to discharge the stored spells, the odds increase that one will not receive the hoped-for spell in return. And finally, faux faeries are not at all fond of being treated like storage batteries, and will do their utmost to escape from any such situation.



some preliminary stats for the faux faerie:

*Faux Faerie*
Tiny Fey
Hit Dice: 4d6+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: X
Space/Reach: 1 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: aura
Special Qualities: change shape, low-light vision, meld with branch, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X 
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 42 (racial bonus to Bluff!!)
Feats: 2

Environment: Temperate forest
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Tiny)
Level Adjustment: +X?

COMBAT


Originally found in Monstrous Compendium MC14 – Fiend Folio Appendix (1992, Tim Beach).


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2005)

Oooh, you wicked trickster!   I saw the thread and wondered which linnorm was up next!  You should've waited until April 1st to pull this.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 11, 2005)

LOL  i'm impatient.    ok, i promise, after this crazy little bastard i will go back to linnorms.


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2005)

Alright....faux now.    

For ability scores, looking at other 1 to 2 feet tall fey:
Grig:  Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14
Petal (MM3):  Str 3, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 18
Pixie (actually a half foot bigger):  Str 7, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16

So...it looks like Str 3-5, Dex 18-20, Con 11-15.  They are all smarter than faux, so I'd give him Wis 10, Cha 10-12.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 11, 2005)

Str 4, Dex 19, Con 13?


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2005)

That'll work.


----------



## Shade (Mar 14, 2005)

Updating based on physical ability scores:

Faux Faerie
Tiny Fey
Hit Dice: 4d6+4 (18 hp) 
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-9
Attack: X
Full Attack: X
Space/Reach: 1 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: aura
Special Qualities: change shape, low-light vision, meld with branch, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +2 Ref +8 Will +X (4+Wis mod)
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 10, Wis X, Cha 18
Skills: 42 (racial bonus to Bluff!!)
Feats: 2

On second thought, I think it's Cha should be higher, since it will rely heavily on Bluff.  Maybe 16-18?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 14, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> On second thought, I think it's Cha should be higher, since it will rely heavily on Bluff. Maybe 16-18?




I’ll bump that up to 18.

Are you sure the grapple check should be –11 and not –9?  BAB +2, size –8, Str –3.

Your HP are a bit low as well: 4 * 3.5 (14) +4 = 18


----------



## Shade (Mar 14, 2005)

Uhh...forgotten BAB and Con modifiers aside...  

Cha 18 sounds good.   How about Wis 14, so it is good at Sense Motive as well?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 14, 2005)

that's fine, it'll bump up the mods by +1.


----------



## Shade (Mar 14, 2005)

Were you waiting on me?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 15, 2005)

no sir, not at all.    i'm just busy... today i spent some time researching for the desert monsters so i didn't have much time to work on CC business.  as always, if you have comments and questions to post while i seem to be doing nothing, go right ahead.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 16, 2005)

MC14 said:
			
		

> Because it is essentially a magic-based creature, the faux faerie can appear to those who view it as one of almost any number of fairy-like creatures, such as sprites, brownies, pixies, leprechauns, or woodland fairies. It will generally take the form of whichever type of fairy-creature is most common to the locale in which it is currently travelling. The faux faerie is an excellent mimic, conversant in all of the languages of the creatures it portrays, and is virtually impossible to detect as an imposter, except that it does not possess the innate magical powers and natural abilities of the creatures it poses as. Thus, for example, it can appear and sound like a leprechaun, but cannot play the magical tricks that come so easily to such creatures.




some form of change shape, I would say.



			
				MC14 said:
			
		

> But the most unusual feature of combat with these strange creatures is their complete and special magic resistance, which gives them total protection from all forms of magical spell attack. An invisible aura of absorbent and reactive magic surrounds them so that when a spell is cast upon them, the spell is itself absorbed into their aura, where it joins dozens of other spells, circling the faux faerie in a magical frenzy. It the aura is "full" at the time a spell is cast upon the faux faerie, the spell is still absorbed, but a random spell captured earlier is expelled from the aura back toward the caster of the spell upon the faux faerie. This can happen multiple times in the same round and cannot be disrupted by any physical attack. Thus, without components or motions of casting, a faux faerie may appear to have great innate magical abilities, as it will cast out in any round the same number of spells which may be cast upon it that round, without suffering spell disruption by any means.




the basis for its aura power...



			
				MC14 said:
			
		

> It a faux faerie is burnt in its dormant state (see Habitat/Society below), the results can be disastrous, as the aura is disrupted and all of the stored spells are released at the rate of six per round until the aura is fully emptied or the burning of the faux faerie is put out.




not sure if this should be part of the aura, part of the "meld with wood" or something else altogether.



			
				MC14 said:
			
		

> The number of spells which can be held by the aura of a faux faerie ranges front 24 to 48, and does not change over the life of the faux faerie. Until the aura fills, spells are merely captured by it, and no spells are expelled in return. Once full, the aura captures and randomly expels spells on a one-for-one basis. The spells absorbed and expelled may be either magical or clerical in nature and are not limited by school or discipline. The spells which a faux faerie has stored in its aura would normally include a variety of spells which might have been cast upon it (by both friendly and unfriendly parties), including such spells as know alignment, charm, magic missile, lightning bolt, etc.




add to the aura power, as above.



			
				MC14 said:
			
		

> An hour before dusk, the faux faerie will seek out a suitable fallen branch or log, three or four feet long at most, into which it melds itself for its night's rest, and becomes a part of the wood itself - much as a dryad will meld into her host tree for rest and replenishment. The faux faerie remains in the wood until an hour after dawn. When infused with a faux faerie, the wood of the branch or log will take on an extremely fault blue glow front the dweomer of the magical aura of the faux faerie. This glow, which is indistinguishable from the blue fox fire glow which sometimes occurs in naturally decomposing wood, cannot be seen at all if it is still light or dusk or if there is a light source (e.g., torch, lamp, lantern, or continual light gem) in use when the wood is viewed. Thus, gathering wood for a fire at dusk can be a risky proposition if a faux faerie is about. If the wood infused with a dormant faux faerie is burnt, the faux faerie will take normal damage from the fire, and its aura is explosively disrupted as described above.




the meld power...



			
				MC14 said:
			
		

> If, however, the wood containing the faux faerie is chopped or cut (and not burnt), only six random spells will be discharged. Two faux faeries will emerge from the pieces of wood that morning, each with half the hit points and half the stored spells of the original faux faerie. They will remain in this immature stage for two weeks, after which their hit points and spell capacities will double. This is the only known means of procreation for the faux faerie.




maybe another separate power?



			
				MC14 said:
			
		

> A faux faerie can be a formidable storage battery for high-level protective and healing spells, or even for offensive spells. If captured before its aura is full, the faux faerie can be "fed" whichever spells are desired. For example, a cleric could cast several high-level cures on the faux faerie until its aura was filled or nearly filled with such spells. This would allow any spellcaster to receive such a cure during battle by casting a low-level spell on the creature, receiving the expelled spell in return. Obviously, there are many risks involved. First, the hazards of trying to determine whether or not a faux faerie's aura is "full" should be obvious, as well as the effort involved in capturing the creature. Second, as low-level spells are cast upon it to discharge the stored spells, the odds increase that one will not receive the hoped-for spell in return. And finally, faux faeries are not at all fond of being treated like storage batteries, and will do their utmost to escape from any such situation.




possibly incorporate some of this into flavor text.


----------



## Shade (Mar 16, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> some form of change shape, I would say.




Like such?

Change Shape (Su): A faux faerie can assume the shape of any fey creature up to Small(?) size. A faux faerie can remain in its fey form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a faux faerie reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the basis for its aura power...




Here's an initial attempt at this tough ability:

Reactive Absorptive Aura (Su):   A faux faerie is contiually surrounded by an invisible magical aura which absorbs spells and releases them at random.  Any time a spell targets a faux faerie, it is immediately absorbed by the aura.  The aura can store up to X spell levels before it becomes full.   If a spell targets the faux faerie once its aura is full, the spell is aborbed, and a random stored spell is released and targeted at the caster.  The spell uses the caster level of the target(?).   

We'll need to add a "typical spells stored" list or something to randomly determine what spells are already stored.

More to come...


----------



## BOZ (Mar 16, 2005)

ok then.  

the change shape is good, and i'll withhold commentary on the aura for now.


----------



## Shade (Mar 16, 2005)

Commenting on the rest...



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure if this should be part of the aura, part of the "meld with wood" or something else altogether.




We should probably add it to the aura.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> add to the aura power, as above.




Already have done so, somewhat at least.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the meld power...




Attempt #1:

Wood Meld (Su):  An hour before dusk, the faux faerie will seek out a suitable fallen branch or log, three or four feet long at most, into which it melds itself for its night's rest, and becomes a part of the wood itself. The faux faerie remains in the wood until an hour after dawn. When infused with a faux faerie, the wood of the branch or log will take on an extremely faint blue glow front the dweomer of the magical aura of the faux faerie. This glow, which is indistinguishable from the blue fox fire glow which sometimes occurs in naturally decomposing wood, cannot be seen at all if any light source (mundane or magical) is present. If the wood infused with a dormant faux faerie is burnt, the faux faerie will take normal damage from the fire, and its aura is explosively disrupted (see other power).




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> maybe another separate power?




Probably should be.   We could mine this ability for ideas:

Split (Su): When damaged, a protean scourge splits into two identical versions of itself. This ability is not an illusion; each new protean scourge is fully capable of dealing real damage and poses a real threat. Each version of the protean scourge has all the current statistics and access to all the current abilities of a single creature, including any remaining uncast spells. However, any spells cast by either split protean scourge come from the total pool of remaining available spells. So, the two versions share access to remaining spells; each does not get its own spell list or spells per day. Neither half of the protean scourge can change shape as long as the creature remains split.

Each version has the protean scourge's current hit point total (they do not split remaining hit points), and both versions of the protean scourge must be slain to kill the creature.

The split protean scourges can recombine into a single creature in a process that lasts 1 minute. While it recombines, the protean scourge is helpless.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> possibly incorporate some of this into flavor text.




Good idea.


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## Rapida (Mar 20, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here's an initial attempt at this tough ability:
> Reactive Absorptive Aura (Su): A faux faerie is contiually surrounded by an invisible magical aura which absorbs spells and releases them at random. Any time a spell targets a faux faerie, it is immediately absorbed by the aura. The aura can store up to X spell levels before it becomes full. If a spell targets the faux faerie once its aura is full, the spell is aborbed, and a random stored spell is released and targeted at the caster. The spell uses the caster level of the target(?).
> 
> We'll need to add a "typical spells stored" list or something to randomly determine what spells are already stored.
> ...



Hello, sorry to interrupt you two but for the typical spells stored you could roll for a scroll in the DM's guide.  If you all don't mind I would enjoy trying to help convert some of these creatures.


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## BOZ (Mar 20, 2005)

hey, i don't mind at all.    i'm always saying i wish we had more people volunteering around here.

in the meantime, sorry for being so quiet, but i had some personal things to finish up for the last few days.


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## BOZ (Mar 23, 2005)

Your original name for the aura is kind of clunky, though not inaccurate.  Here's an attempt at a rename and some reworking:

Absorbing Aura (Su): A faux faerie is continually surrounded by an invisible magical aura that absorbs spells and releases them at random. Any time a spell targets a faux faerie, the spell is immediately absorbed by the aura. The spell is not discharged and remains stored in the aura indefinitely. Anyone able to detect magical auras sees a frenzy of magical energy circling the faerie.

Each faux faerie's aura can hold 4d6+20 spells; this is a static number and does not change over the course of the faerie's life.  If a spell targets the faux faerie when its aura is full, the new spell is absorbed, and a random stored spell is released and targeted at the caster. The spell uses the caster level of the spellcaster who cast it. Releasing a spell is not a conscious act by the faux faeries and does not provoke an attack of opportunity or require concentration, and thus cannot be disrupted.  Multiple spells can be released in a single round: one for each spell cast at the faux faerie.

While a faux faerie is in its dormant state, its aura can be disrupted by damaging the wood it has melded with.  If the wood is burnt, its stored spells are released at a rate of six spells per round, targeting random targets within X feet.  This happens every round until all spells are released, or the wood is no longer burning.  If the wood is cut instead of burnt, six spells are released randomly in this way, but only in the first round the wood is chopped.

Feel free to disagree with anything presented above.   

Should we allow this to work on spell-like abilities as well?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We'll need to add a "typical spells stored" list or something to randomly determine what spells are already stored.




It's a good idea.    the example in the text suggests "its aura would normally include a variety of spells which might have been cast upon it (by both friendly and unfriendly parties), including such spells as know alignment, charm, magic missile, lightning bolt, etc."  some spells, like the suggested know alignment (or its modern "detect" counterparts) might be completely harmless.  Naturally, lightning bolt is out now since that is an area rather than target spell.  Our list should feature spells that target creatures that are likely to be cast on other creatures (not spells that are likely to target only the caster).



> Attempt #1:
> 
> Wood Meld (Su): An hour before dusk, the faux faerie will seek out a suitable fallen branch or log, three or four feet long at most, into which it melds itself for its night's rest, and becomes a part of the wood itself. The faux faerie remains in the wood until an hour after dawn. When infused with a faux faerie, the wood of the branch or log will take on an extremely faint blue glow front the dweomer of the magical aura of the faux faerie. This glow, which is indistinguishable from the blue fox fire glow which sometimes occurs in naturally decomposing wood, cannot be seen at all if any light source (mundane or magical) is present. If the wood infused with a dormant faux faerie is burnt, the faux faerie will take normal damage from the fire, and its aura is explosively disrupted (see other power).




I'm going to take a bit of that text out for flavor text, since power descriptions don't (usually) go into details about why and how they're used so much as what happens when they are:

An hour before dusk, the faux faerie will seek out a suitable fallen branch or log, three or four feet long at most. The faerie melds itself into the wood for its night's rest, and remains in the wood until an hour after dawn.

Wood Meld (Su): A faux faerie can meld its body and possessions into a single piece of wood that is large enough to accommodate its body in all three dimensions.  The wood must not be a part of a living plant. The effect of this ability is otherwise similar to the meld with stone spell.  

A piece of wood infused with a faux faerie takes on an extremely faint blue glow from the dweomer of the faux faerie's magical aura. This glow is indistinguishable from the blue fox fire glow that sometimes occurs in naturally decomposing wood, and cannot be seen at all if any light source (mundane or magical) is present. If the wood infused with a dormant faux faerie is burnt, the faux faerie will take normal damage from the fire, and its aura is explosively disrupted (see "other power").



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Probably should be. We could mine this ability for ideas:
> 
> Split (Su): When damaged, a protean scourge splits into two identical versions of itself. This ability is not an illusion; each new protean scourge is fully capable of dealing real damage and poses a real threat. Each version of the protean scourge has all the current statistics and access to all the current abilities of a single creature, including any remaining uncast spells. However, any spells cast by either split protean scourge come from the total pool of remaining available spells. So, the two versions share access to remaining spells; each does not get its own spell list or spells per day. Neither half of the protean scourge can change shape as long as the creature remains split.
> 
> ...




how's this then?

Split (Su): When the wood containing a faux faerie is chopped or cut into two or more pieces, the faux faerie splits into two identical versions of itself, which emerge from the two largest pieces of wood that next morning.  Each version has half the faux faerie's current hit point total, but otherwise each one has the same stats as the original.  This split is permanent; the two faux faeries are separate creatures and cannot recombine.

Each version of the faux faerie has access to all the current abilities of a single creature. However, any spells stored in the original faux faerie's aura are split evenly and randomly between the two new ones.


----------



## Dire_dungeonmaster (Mar 24, 2005)

*2 ed con Virus*

I need the virus, from monstruos compendium   A  #3   pgs 113-115   converted please help














    Ghostwolf0022charter.net no spam thaxs


----------



## Shade (Mar 24, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Your original name for the aura is kind of clunky, though not inaccurate.  Here's an attempt at a rename and some reworking:
> 
> Absorbing Aura (Su): A faux faerie is continually surrounded by an invisible magical aura that absorbs spells and releases them at random. Any time a spell targets a faux faerie, the spell is immediately absorbed by the aura. The spell is not discharged and remains stored in the aura indefinitely. Anyone able to detect magical auras sees a frenzy of magical energy circling the faerie.
> 
> ...




Should we change the number of spells to number of spell levels, like most absorption/reflection effects?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Should we allow this to work on spell-like abilities as well?




Absolutely.  Good idea.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> It's a good idea.    the example in the text suggests "its aura would normally include a variety of spells which might have been cast upon it (by both friendly and unfriendly parties), including such spells as know alignment, charm, magic missile, lightning bolt, etc."  some spells, like the suggested know alignment (or its modern "detect" counterparts) might be completely harmless.  Naturally, lightning bolt is out now since that is an area rather than target spell.  Our list should feature spells that target creatures that are likely to be cast on other creatures (not spells that are likely to target only the caster).




True. And spells that would effect a fey.  (Charm person is probably out).

I wonder if we could incorporate Rapida's suggestion of using the scrolls list?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I'm going to take a bit of that text out for flavor text, since power descriptions don't (usually) go into details about why and how they're used so much as what happens when they are:
> 
> An hour before dusk, the faux faerie will seek out a suitable fallen branch or log, three or four feet long at most. The faerie melds itself into the wood for its night's rest, and remains in the wood until an hour after dawn.
> 
> ...




Looks good.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how's this then?
> 
> Split (Su): When the wood containing a faux faerie is chopped or cut into two or more pieces, the faux faerie splits into two identical versions of itself, which emerge from the two largest pieces of wood that next morning.  Each version has half the faux faerie's current hit point total, but otherwise each one has the same stats as the original.  This split is permanent; the two faux faeries are separate creatures and cannot recombine.
> 
> Each version of the faux faerie has access to all the current abilities of a single creature. However, any spells stored in the original faux faerie's aura are split evenly and randomly between the two new ones.




Lookin' good.  Do we need to define how the spells are randomly split, or leave that up to the DM?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 24, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Should we change the number of spells to number of spell levels, like most absorption/reflection effects?




if we do that, the number should be pretty high. If you think about it, with a maximum of 48 spells, they could all be 9th level, meaning 432 spell levels.    now, you might not want to go that high, but assuming a median of 36 4th-level spells, that still gives us an average of 144 spell levels to absorb and that might require quite a bit more calculation that just going straight-up spells.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> True. And spells that would effect a fey. (Charm person is probably out).
> 
> I wonder if we could incorporate Rapida's suggestion of using the scrolls list?




the only problem with that is that the scrolls list has a lot of spells on it that wouldn’t make sense for being part of the aura.  But still, it’s a tought.

I came up with a rather long list while gaming last night, flipping through the PHB for spells that target creatures.  I removed a lot of the ones that wouldn’t make sense, and kept a few helpful spells in case someone felt sorry for the critter or tried to use it as a power battery or something.  When we construct a “common” list, maybe we should limit the number of high level spells, since it’s unlikely that a faux faerie would survive an encounter with a high level party.    see what we can cut this list down to (should be cut to about 1/3, or maybe even less than that):

analyze dweomer, baleful polymorph, barkskin, bear’s endurance (and mass), bestow curse, binding, blindness/deafness, bull’s strength (and mass), cat’s grace (and mass), cause fear, chain lightning, charm monster, chill touch, cloak of chaos, command (and greater), lesser confusion, contagion, cure (all spells), daze monster, demand, destruction, discern lies, dispel magic (and greater), displacement, dominate monster, doom, eagle’s splendor (and mass), endure elements, enthrall, eyebite, feather fall, feeblemind, finger of death, flesh to stone, fox’s cunning (and mass), freedom of movement, gaseous form, geas/quest (and lesser geas), harm, haste, heal, hold monster, horrid wilting, implosion, imprisonment, inflict (all spells), insanity, invisibility (and greater), mage armor, magic jar, magic missile, mark of justice (this spell may be the most appropriate one on the list!  LOL), maze, modify memory, Otto’s irresistible dance, owl’s wisdom (and mass), phantasmal killer, plane shift, poison, power word (all spells), protection (all spells), rage, resist energy, sanctuary, scare, shocking grasp, slay living, slow, spider climb, statue, stoneskin, suggestion, Tasha’s hideous laughter, temporal stasis, touch of fatigue, touch of idiocy, trap the soul, vampire touch, virtue, weird



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Lookin' good. Do we need to define how the spells are randomly split, or leave that up to the DM?




I’d leave that one up to the DM.  And if we go with spell levels, that will be even more for the poor soul to figure out later.


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 24, 2005)

Nice. Only thing I have to add is that I think it should have the Shapechanger subtype...


----------



## Rapida (Mar 24, 2005)

I think we should limit the level of spells this thing can have in its aura, I mean if its a CR 4 and casts wierd everyone is dead.

Also I think we still could include fireball and lightning bolt since the description sees the spell is cast at the one that just hit it with a spell. So it just shoots a fireball or something there way, not necassarily hitting them or anything. (that would depend on the range and all that)


----------



## Shade (Mar 25, 2005)

Dire_dungeonmaster said:
			
		

> I need the virus, from monstruos compendium   A  #3   pgs 113-115   converted please help




BOZ, since this thread keeps getting requests, how about rolling out the linnorms into a separate thread?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 25, 2005)

perhaps.    in the meantime, got anything on the last few posts?


----------



## Shade (Mar 26, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if we do that, the number should be pretty high. If you think about it, with a maximum of 48 spells, they could all be 9th level, meaning 432 spell levels.    now, you might not want to go that high, but assuming a median of 36 4th-level spells, that still gives us an average of 144 spell levels to absorb and that might require quite a bit more calculation that just going straight-up spells.




Yeah, that's probably too much work.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the only problem with that is that the scrolls list has a lot of spells on it that wouldn’t make sense for being part of the aura.  But still, it’s a tought.
> 
> I came up with a rather long list while gaming last night, flipping through the PHB for spells that target creatures.  I removed a lot of the ones that wouldn’t make sense, and kept a few helpful spells in case someone felt sorry for the critter or tried to use it as a power battery or something.  When we construct a “common” list, maybe we should limit the number of high level spells, since it’s unlikely that a faux faerie would survive an encounter with a high level party.    see what we can cut this list down to (should be cut to about 1/3, or maybe even less than that):
> 
> analyze dweomer, baleful polymorph, barkskin, bear’s endurance (and mass), bestow curse, binding, blindness/deafness, bull’s strength (and mass), cat’s grace (and mass), cause fear, chain lightning, charm monster, chill touch, cloak of chaos, command (and greater), lesser confusion, contagion, cure (all spells), daze monster, demand, destruction, discern lies, dispel magic (and greater), displacement, dominate monster, doom, eagle’s splendor (and mass), endure elements, enthrall, eyebite, feather fall, feeblemind, finger of death, flesh to stone, fox’s cunning (and mass), freedom of movement, gaseous form, geas/quest (and lesser geas), harm, haste, heal, hold monster, horrid wilting, implosion, imprisonment, inflict (all spells), insanity, invisibility (and greater), mage armor, magic jar, magic missile, mark of justice (this spell may be the most appropriate one on the list!  LOL), maze, modify memory, Otto’s irresistible dance, owl’s wisdom (and mass), phantasmal killer, plane shift, poison, power word (all spells), protection (all spells), rage, resist energy, sanctuary, scare, shocking grasp, slay living, slow, spider climb, statue, stoneskin, suggestion, Tasha’s hideous laughter, temporal stasis, touch of fatigue, touch of idiocy, trap the soul, vampire touch, virtue, weird




I'd do something like the following:

01-10 magic missile
11-20 daze monster 
21-30 charm monster
31-40 chill touch
41-50 shocking grasp
51-60 inflict light wounds
61-67 inflict moderate wounds
68-74 vampiric touch
75-79 inflict serious wounds
80-83 dispel magic
84-87 slow
88-90 hold monster
91-92 inflict critical wounds
93-94 mark of justice
95-96 greater dispel magic
97 chain lightning
98 baleful polymorph
99 harm
100 slay living



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’d leave that one up to the DM.  And if we go with spell levels, that will be even more for the poor soul to figure out later.




Cool.


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## BOZ (Mar 27, 2005)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> Nice. Only thing I have to add is that I think it should have the Shapechanger subtype...




duh!  Absolutely right, thanks.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's probably too much work.




I think, unless a DM is out to get his party, a faux faerie would never have a full spate of 9th-level spells or something ridiculous like that.  First of all, you'd have to assume that a high level party is going to cast a bunch of powerful spells at some faerie they met in the woods that did nothing really except play tricks on them.  Then, you'd have to assume, that when the spells did not appear to affect the fey, and that if a halfway intelligent and observant caster noticed that every time he cast a spell, the faerie cast one right back, then the spellcaster would be ignorant enough to keep on casting spells at it.  And then, on top of that, you'd have to assume that this same high level party would either give up on it and leave it alone, or that it would somehow fail to kill it (perhaps falling victim to some of the same spells they cast on it) and all of this is assuming a hell of a lot of stupidity from characters who should know better.  

I like your table idea.  

However, that list assumes that every spell cast at the faerie would be intended to harm it somehow.  There are two reasons why I don't think that should be.  One would be the reckless spellcaster who decides to use one of them as a spell battery - it should have a few useful spells fed into it that the caster imprisoning it would want it to cast back on him later (though we can assume that, unless it is part of the encounter, this is not the most likely scenario). The other reason would be that not everything it encounters would be an enemy.  Perhaps another fey was a friend of this faerie, and used some spell like abilities to heal or enhance it before realizing that was ineffective.  Or perhaps some kindly (or foolish) spellcaster came upon one, and cast some beneficial spells before he realized what he was doing.  I'd say the list should be roughly 75% harmful spells, and 25% beneficial spells.  That certainly makes it more random, if nothing else.  

There are too many inflict wounds on there, for one thing, there shouldn't be more than two versions.  Spells that should definitely stay:  the first three on the list, dispel magic, and mark of justice.  The rest can be shuffled as needed.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I think, unless a DM is out to get his party, a faux faerie would never have a full spate of 9th-level spells or something ridiculous like that.  First of all, you'd have to assume that a high level party is going to cast a bunch of powerful spells at some faerie they met in the woods that did nothing really except play tricks on them.  Then, you'd have to assume, that when the spells did not appear to affect the fey, and that if a halfway intelligent and observant caster noticed that every time he cast a spell, the faerie cast one right back, then the spellcaster would be ignorant enough to keep on casting spells at it.  And then, on top of that, you'd have to assume that this same high level party would either give up on it and leave it alone, or that it would somehow fail to kill it (perhaps falling victim to some of the same spells they cast on it) and all of this is assuming a hell of a lot of stupidity from characters who should know better.




No arguments here.  I think the highest-level spell I had on the table was 6th, and only with a 1% chance.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I like your table idea.




Thanks.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> However, that list assumes that every spell cast at the faerie would be intended to harm it somehow.  There are two reasons why I don't think that should be.  One would be the reckless spellcaster who decides to use one of them as a spell battery - it should have a few useful spells fed into it that the caster imprisoning it would want it to cast back on him later (though we can assume that, unless it is part of the encounter, this is not the most likely scenario). The other reason would be that not everything it encounters would be an enemy.  Perhaps another fey was a friend of this faerie, and used some spell like abilities to heal or enhance it before realizing that was ineffective.  Or perhaps some kindly (or foolish) spellcaster came upon one, and cast some beneficial spells before he realized what he was doing.  I'd say the list should be roughly 75% harmful spells, and 25% beneficial spells.  That certainly makes it more random, if nothing else.




OK, having reread the original description, I see that it may be the recipient of the occasional friendly spell.  However, it seems that a faux faerie that was imprisoned and escaped would be the rare exception, not the rule, so probably doesn't need to be heavily represented on the table.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> There are too many inflict wounds on there, for one thing, there shouldn't be more than two versions.  Spells that should definitely stay:  the first three on the list, dispel magic, and mark of justice.  The rest can be shuffled as needed.




That's fine.  I just added the different levels to represent the different levels of casters it may have encountered.  A higher-level cleric would probably open with an inflict critical wounds, while a 1st-level caster would only drop an inflict light wounds.


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## BOZ (Mar 28, 2005)

here is the aura power once more.  i put in a few beneficial spells, as well as a few spells likely to be cast at them by other fey.  

Absorbing Aura (Su): A faux faerie is continually surrounded by an invisible magical aura that absorbs spells and releases them at random. Any time a spell or spell-like ability targets a faux faerie, the spell is immediately absorbed by the aura. The spell is not discharged and remains stored in the aura indefinitely. Anyone able to detect magical auras sees a frenzy of magical energy circling the faerie.

Each faux faerie's aura can hold 4d6+20 spells; this is a static number and does not change over the course of the faerie?s life.  If a spell targets the faux faerie when its aura is full, the new spell is absorbed, and a random stored spell is released as a free action and targeted at the caster. The released spell uses the caster level of the spellcaster that cast it initially, though the faux faerie becomes the caster for all other effects related to the caster. Releasing a spell is not a conscious act by the faux faerie and does not provoke an attack of opportunity or require concentration, and thus cannot be disrupted.

While a faux faerie is in its dormant state (see wood meld, below), its aura can be disrupted by damaging the wood it has melded with.  If the wood is burnt, its stored spells are released at a rate of six spells per round, targeting random targets within X feet.  This happens every round until all spells are released, or the wood is no longer burning.  If the wood is cut instead of burnt, six spells are released randomly in this way, but only in the first round the wood is chopped.

The spells currently stored in a faux faerie's aura should be determined randomly.  This table shows some of the spells most commonly stored by a faux faerie:

01-10 magic missile
11-20 daze monster 
21-30 charm monster
31-40 lesser confusion
41-50 shocking grasp
51-60 inflict light wounds
61-67 cure light wounds
68-74 heal
75-79 suggestion
80-83 dispel magic
84-87 slow
88-90 hold monster
91-92 inflict critical wounds
93-94 mark of justice
95-96 greater dispel magic
97 chain lightning
98 baleful polymorph
99 harm
100 slay living


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2005)

Looks good.


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## BOZ (Mar 28, 2005)

posting this one in homebrews for a look-see.


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## LegacyKing (Mar 28, 2005)

*Awesome site*

I have a request (looks like you're done with the previous conversion).

Kercpa (I have an NPC one I made but I have a player joining that wants to try it out. I'd like to nail down the extras before handing it over)

Need the as a character too.
Basics of what I did based upon the manual I just added +2 dex & +2 Wis. They are supposed to be nimble and they have shamans. Although they should probably have a higher dex. Looking at what is seen they are excellent archers and use tiny swords (Picture looks like a "two-handed" sword. My reasoning for not having a neg str penalty is all their weapons based upon size do 1d3 damage. 

Per the manual they have a dex of 19 and can dodge missiles.

Excellent job on the site and I applaud your efforts to convert all the 2e to 3e.

I look forward to what you come up with, thanks 

-LegacyKing (BTW My first Post here!)

One extra thought though. Are you converting to 3e standards or 3.5e?


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2005)

Since most sprites wield a shortsword and longbow, and the faux faerie likes to imitate them, I'd go with those weapons.

Suggested Skill Ranks:  Bluff 7, Disguise 7, Escape Artist 7, Hide 7, Listen 2, Move Silently 7, Sleight of Hand 3, Spot 2

+8 racial bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks?

Suggested Feats:  Persuasive, Stealthy

LegacyKing-- Welcome to the CC Forums!   We strive for 3.5 in all current conversions, and are currently overhauling previous 3.0 conversions to 3.5.   I'll let BOZ answer the rest.


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## BOZ (Mar 28, 2005)

LegacyKing said:
			
		

> I have a request (looks like you're done with the previous conversion).
> 
> Kercpa (I have an NPC one I made but I have a player joining that wants to try it out. I'd like to nail down the extras before handing it over)




the requests are stacking up.    right now there is a queue forming:

1.) Shade gets a linnorm of his choice (we'll come back to those later)

2.) The viruses from one of the MC Annuals were reqeusted

3.) The kerpca (these are surprisingly popular).

we're not quite done with the one we're working on either, but it's close.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> 1.) Shade gets a linnorm of his choice (we'll come back to those later)




I choose Midgard linnorm, while Jormy is still fresh in our minds.


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## BOZ (Mar 28, 2005)

good choice.    would you be happier doing him in the Epic thread though, so we can proceed with the other requests here?


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2005)

That works for me.  In fact, it will be easier to scroll up and reference Jormy that way.


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## BOZ (Mar 28, 2005)

true dat!


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2005)

will work on faux faerie flavor text soon.



			
				Dire_dungeonmaster said:
			
		

> I need the virus, from monstruos compendium   A  #3   pgs 113-115   converted please help




you know, i tried looking for this but could not find it.  what are you looking for again?


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## LegacyKing (Mar 29, 2005)

*Can we add Faery Dragon to the list?*

Title pretty much says it all. But can we add Faery Dragon to the queue?

Email me when you get to the Kercpa please (I've got a decent working model I'm using, of course a general approval and guidance from the experienced converters is always welcome) I will patiently wait my turn.


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## Krishnath (Mar 29, 2005)

LegacyKing said:
			
		

> Title pretty much says it all. But can we add Faery Dragon to the queue?



No, the faerie dragon is in the Draconomicon.


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## Filby (Mar 29, 2005)

Requests, eh? Hmm... I'd like to put in a word for the rockseer elf from the MCA3.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2005)

Rockseer, also from Night Below, will go next in the queue then. 

Faerie Dragons, yes, are indeed in the Draconomicon, and also the Tome of Horrors.


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2005)

worked up the text for the faux faerie, and updated in homebrews.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2005)

Text is quite flavorful, almost savory.    

Weight:  1 to 3 pounds?  (A grig weighs 1 pound at 1-1/2 feet tall).


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2005)

hmm, let's see, what remains...

should the SR be fine at 21?  the original text gave them 100% MR, which essentially made them immune to all magic.  i want to make sure this is compatable with the aura too.

CR?  LA?


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## LegacyKing (Apr 1, 2005)

Magic Resistance of 100%?
Per the conversion manual you Divide the Magic Resistance by 5 and add the result to 11.

100 / 5 = 20 + 11 = 31

So the SR should equal 31

Hope that helps <img>


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2005)

d'oh, right, that would be 31 then.    but my previous question still stands...


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## LegacyKing (Apr 1, 2005)

LA are the trickiest because it is based upon GM judgement.

I'd have to call the creature "Multiple Threat" (3/4 of HD to +2 HD). So HD is 4 +2 would be a 6 CR. Using a sample creature "Ogre Mage" they have a LA of 1 less than the CR.

Forgive me if my calcs are off, I'm new at this...

I'd say an effective LA should be 6 or 7 (This assumes that the creature in a campaign setting would fall under the "Very Hard" category of getting him/her in).

HD 4
SR 31 (+2?)  Drow has SR 11+1 each Level and has a base LA of +2
Spell Caster/Special Abilities +1

Does that makes sense?

So I'd say a +6 or +7 is reasonable based upon the above. What do you think?


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

Using the Savage Species method...

+1 for unbalanced ability scores
-1 for size
+1 for spell-like abilities
+1 for "spellcasting ability" beyond its level

So, +3 LA.

You were on the right track for ECL of +6 to +7, LegacyKing.   Note that LA doesn't account for Hit Dice, but ECL does (LA + HD).


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2005)

Just about done with this guy now.  

What I was wonder is, since it had a 100% MR in 2E, should we account for that with more than just the standard sort of spell resistance (even if bumped up a lot)?  Maybe something like what golems have?


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

SR 31 is probably good enough.  A 20th-level caster (which is probably never going to encounter a creature this weak) only has a 50% chance of beating its spell resistance.

However, the golem's immunity to magic is also a valid option.


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2005)

actually, your assurance above is good enough for me.  

updating in homebrews...


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

I'm thinking CR 6 might be too high.  The creature cannot actually do much harm intentionally, so I think it is more around the CR 4-5 range.   While it can stand up to spellcasters, melee types will slice it to ribbons without breaking a sweat.

Speaking of that...should it have DR 5/cold iron?


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

yes.  

CR 4 then?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

Yeah, I'd go with 4.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

ok, updating in homebrews for one final look.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

She looks good.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

good deal.    since i couldn't find those viruses (virii?) i'm going to move on to the kercpa, probably sometime next week.


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## LegacyKing (Apr 7, 2005)

YAY! Of course next week I'm going out to the Gulf of Mexico and won't be back for a month... Arg, timing is everything.

Did you want me to post the version I've come up with and am using or did you just want to go from scratch?


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2005)

from scratch, but if you like you may post yours in homebrews, add a link here, and we will compare/contrast to make a better hybrid.    i do that all the time.


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## BOZ (Apr 26, 2005)

as promised...

these guys have a hell of a lot of flavor text.  i'm going to have to reduce that a lot.  

Monstrous Humanoid?


The Dragon's Bestiary

Add these little guys to your campaign's elven forests
by Norman Abrahamsen
Artwork by Terry Dykstra

The Kercpa
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate forests
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to High (8-14)
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
ALIGNMENT Neutral to Chaotic Good
NO. APPEARING: 3-12
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT. 9, Cl 15
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise, +4 on attacks with bows
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised only on 1, dodge missiles, saves as 7 HD creature
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1'~1½')
MORALE: Steady (12); with elves, Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 65
2 HD Defender: 120
3 HD Defender: 175
4 HD Defender: 270
Shaman, level 1-4: 175
Shaman, level 5: 270
Wizard: + 1 HD

The Kercpa (both singular and plural) are a reclusive race inhabiting dense forests, far from civilization. Shy of most races other than elves, and exceptionally skilled at remaining undetected, they are rarely seen even when their dwellings are nearby.
Seldom exceeding 1½' in height, kercpa appear as bipedal red squirrels, complete with bushy tails to assist in keeping their balance. Eyes are usually green or hazel, although blue is not known. They favor garb similar to that of the elves who usually reside near to, colored so as to enable them to blend in more easily into their surroundings. Hands and feet are never covered, however, as that would impede their ability to climb. Among the trees they are as nimble and acrobatic as normal squirrels, running and leaping from branch to branch and tree to tree with astonishing ease and grace.
Kercpa speak their own language. In addition, many have learned one or more languages of other forest-dwelling races such as sylvan or wild elves, treants, pixies, and sprites. About one in ten will have picked up at least a smattering of the Common tongue.

Combat: Kercpa are peaceful by nature and always avoid combat when possible. However, should it become necessary, they are quite capable of defending themselves, their homes, and those of their elven allies with an efficiency that belies their diminutive size and rather harmless appearance. The squirrel-folk move with great stealth through the woodland, imposing a -5 penalty on others' surprise rolls. Due to their keen senses, they are themselves surprised only on a roll of 1. Hiding motionlessly in any forest terrain, kercpa are 90% unlikely to be seen. They make all saving throws as 7 Hit Dice creatures, adjusted, where applicable, as if possessing a Dexterity score of 19. Although they never wear armor of any kind, their size and phenomenal agility combine to give them an excellent armor class. A kercpa, furthermore, may attempt to dodge any missile directed at it, provided that it is in a position to see the attack launched. A successful saving throw versus death magic (modified by Dexterity, as above) the kercpa successfully dodged the attack, regardless of whether the attack would normally have hit. Up to two missiles may be dodged per round by each kercpa. 
If forced into melee, kercpa wield tiny swords or spears that inflict 1d3 points of damage. However, well aware of the disadvantage they suffer against most foes, they strive to avoid hand-to-hand combat. The preferred weapon of any kercpa is a bow. Although the seemingly toy-like kercpa bow has but half the range and damage causing potential of a normal short bow, an innate skill honed by intense training make them formidable weapons in the squirrel-folk's hands nonetheless. Some kercpa routinely best their elven allies in short-range archery contests.
A kercpa may fire up to three arrows per round, with each such attack at +4 to hit. a typical kercpa strategy is to take to the trees, surround the enemy, and while darting in and out of concealment, rain down a relentless barrage of stinging projectiles from all sides. It is not uncommon for a band of orcs, gnolls, or other forest marauders thus assaulted to believe themselves under attack by scores of the creatures, when in reality they are faced with only a dozen or so. Certainly the kercpa do their best to encourage this mistaken impression.
Should their opponents be too numerous to drive away or destroy in this manner, the kercpa shift tactics and attempt to lead them out of their territory, goading them to the chase with taunts and jeers if the squirrel-folks' enemies prove reluctant to pursue them. By this the kercpa hope to fragment a larger band, get them hopelessly separated and lost in the woods, and then deal with the more manageably sized groups one at a time. Some tribes, especially those dwelling in or near enemy-infested lands, will attempt to lead pursuers through an area of forest that, in preparation for such a contingency, the kercpa had rigged with concealed pits, snares, deadfalls, and other traps. When such tactics fail, the kercpa send runners off through the trees to alert the elven settlements the squirrel-folk seldom live far from.
Kercpa are able to communicate over distances of up to 100 yards by utilizing a simple language of whistles and bird calls. While limited in its range of expression, this method of communication is sufficient for them to coordinate or alter tactics without the need to regroup, an invaluable advantage in combat relying on cunning, stealth, subterfuge, and deception. Throughout the kercpa territory will be stashed caches of arrows and other supplies (in hollow branches, etc.), eliminating the need to return to the village to restock. All adults are intimately familiar with the areas in which they live and, except in certain unusual instances (such as quarry empowered with flight or utilizing a pass without trace spell) can track intruders as a ranger throughout.
Those kercpa with spell-casting ability (see below) employ magic in combat to complement and enhance the squirrel-folks combat tactics. Favorites include ventriloquism, taunt, wall of fog, and mirror image.

Habitat/Society: A typical kercpa tribe consists of 100-300 adult squirrel-folk, with an additional number of young equal to roughly 20% of the population. Male and female kercpa are equally skilled fighters, while the young are noncombatants. One in every 20 kercpa will be an individual with 2 Hit Dice. For every 100 in a community, there will be an additional leader with 3 or 4 Hit Dice. As the most skilled warriors in the village, these exceptional individuals (or "defenders" as they are known) are primarily responsible for its safe-keeping from malevolent outside forces. Their duties include the organizing of patrols, the maintenance the village's defenses, and leading the tribe in attack, retreat, and, it necessary, evacuation. Kercpa defenders take this role very seriously and will not hesitate to sacrifice themselves for the tribe if the situation warrants. A defender's THAC0 and saving throws are proportionately superior to others of their kind. A 3 HD kercpa, for example, would have a base THAC0 of 18 (14 with a bow) and make saving throws as a 9 Hit Die creature. Through trade with elves and sprites, kercpa sometimes manage to acquire a limited supply of their sleep-inducing arrows; any defender has a 25% chance to carry ld4 of them in his quiver. These precious arrows will not be wasted on opponents the squirrel-folk believe can be overcome by other means.
All kercpa tribes will be led by a shaman of the 4th or 5th level of ability. For every 50 kercpa in the tribe, there will be an additional 1d2 lesser shamans of 1st through 3rd level. Shamans receive an additional 1d4 hit points for each level they possess beyond the first, and for every two levels fight as if having one additional Hit Die. They may cast spells from the following spheres: All, Animal, Creation, Divination, Healing, Plant, Sun, and Weather. In addition, kercpa shamans are skilled herbalists with the ability to concoct effect remedies to numerous ailments and afflictions. Among these is a minor variety of healing potion that restores 1d4+1 hit points to the imbiber. Any kercpa venturing outside the village is 75% likely to have such a potion in her possession. Kercpa shamans are responsible for preserving the tribe's health, providing advice and spiritual guidance, and presiding over ceremonies. In theory, the shamans also are responsible for governing all internal matters within the tribe, but in actuality there is little need. Kercpa seem to be by nature cooperative, working together for the common good of the forest community. Internal or inter-tribal strife among them is unknown.
The role of the defenders usually falls to the male kercpa, while the females comprise the majority of the shamans. This tendency is by no means a rule, however, and exceptions either way are not uncommon. The sexes in kercpa society are in all ways equal (as well as being difficult for outsiders to tell apart). They marry for life and mates are fiercely protective of their young and of each other.
Perhaps due to their close relationship with elves, some kercpa dabble in magic; any adult has a 5% chance of being able to cast spells as a wizard of the 1st to 4th level. Kercpa rarely learn spells of an offensive nature, and never those involving fire.
Kercpa villages consist of numerous small buildings situated high among the branches, and are usually spread out among several trees. An elaborate highway of vine ladders and bridges connect the various buildings. The village is difficult to see from the ground; even observant outsiders have but a 5% chance of noticing it. Actively scanning the trees increases the chance to 10%. Villages set among deciduous trees are more easily spied in the winter-time, increasing the probabilities to 15% and 50% respectively. Under normal circumstances, the kercpa's vigilant scout patrols and sentries make it impossible for an intruder to come within a mile of one of their dwellings without their knowledge.
The squirrel-folk live by foraging. Dozens of small bands strike out daily from early spring to late fall to gather food, water, and other necessities. Surplus is stored away for the winter. Unlike true squirrels, kercpa do not hibernate. They do, however, tend to be less active during the winter months, and often sleep for much greater lengths of time. At least a third of the tribe will remain active at all times in the event of a threat. Kercpa are strictly vegetarian so, despite considerable archery skill, their bows are not used for hunting. Foraging expeditions rarely take them more than 10 miles from the village. If a tribe becomes too large to be supported by the immediate area a group consisting mainly of younger couples breaks off to found a new village elsewhere. Tribes within the same region often converge on an annual basis (usually on the summer solstice) for a great festival. These celebrations, sometimes lasting several days, serve as an opportunity for various tribes to renew familial ties, hold council on matters of mutual concern, introduce young adults to possible mates, and to exchange goods and information. Music, song, dance, story-telling, friendly contests of archery, tumbling and speed, as well as an over-abundance of food and blackberry wine round out the festive nature of the gathering.
The simple kercpa religion pays homage to a single deity, a nameless earth goddess who, while said to be able to take any form in nature, is usually depicted as a vast oak tree. Religious ceremonies are few compared to those of most other races, and pious obligations are fulfilled simply by living in harmonious accord with nature. Faced with an ethical dilemma, kercpa seek a precedent in the fables of Rititisk the Clever-the mythical patriarch of the race-and try to emulate his example. In addition to being entertaining stories of adventure in their own right-tales of Rititisk thwarting monstrous evil spiders, outwitting oafish giants (humans), questing to the ends of the earth for enchanted ever-striking arrows and the like-the fables are believed by the kercpa to contain lessons to guide them through all aspects of life. They are essential to every young kercpa's education.
Strangers traveling through kercpa lands will be trailed and their actions scrutinized (ideally without the kercpa revealing their presence) but will be allowed to pass unhindered if they do not cause harm to the forest. This remains the case even with obviously evil creatures such as orcs and goblins. The only exceptions to the kercpa's reclusiveness include certain sylvan neighbors who share an interest in preserving the woodland. With elves, sprites, and treants do the kercpa have ties of friendship and alliance. To the elves the kercpa are indispensable, as the squirrel-folk convey messages back and forth between camps, run errands for them, and keep them up to date on the latest happenings of the greater forest. In exchange, elves serve at times as guardians and mentors for the squirrel-folk's children. Young kercpa delight in the company of these elegant, graceful beings, running amok through their homes and pestering their long-lived friends with endless questions and requests for tales of "olden times." Most elves seem to genuinely enjoy the kercpa's company as well.
On infrequent occasions, some human rangers and druids have made contact with and befriended (and were befriended by) the kercpa. A few bolder members of the species have even been known to befriend parties of good-aligned adventurers (especially those containing elves), acting as guides for them and otherwise assisting them with their knowledge of the wilderness. It must be noted, however, that such examples of eccentric behavior are not common.

Ecology: Kercpa make negligible impact on their ecosystem; forests inhabited for twenty generations appear even to careful scrutiny as virgin woodland. As the desire to accumulate wealth and the very concept of money are unknown to them, the kercpa have produced and amassed little that others are interested in acquiring. This has not prevented evil creatures from hunting them out of sheer malice, however. In addition, giant spiders of all kinds, ettercaps, stirges, and even some raptors (such as large owls) are frequent threats to them.  Kercpa are usually born singularly, although twins and triplets are more common than with humans. They become mature at about age 15 and usually marry soon thereafter. Kercpa have an average life expectancy of 60 years.




Monstrous Compendium Annual #4 (1998)

Kercpa

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate forest
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to High (8-14)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral to Chaotic good

NO. APPEARING: 3-12
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 9, Cl 15
HIT DICE: 1
THACO: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 weapon or 3 bow
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise (-5), +4 with bows
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised only on 1, save as 7 HD (Dex 19 bonus); dodge missiles
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1'-1½' tall)
MORALE: Steady (12); with elves Elite (14)
XP VALVE: 1 HD: 65
2 HD: 120
3 HD: 175
4 HD: 270
Shaman 1-4: 175 
Shaman 5th: 270 
Wizard: +1 HD

The kercpas, a reclusive race of intelligent squirrel-folk, inhabit dense forests far from human civilization. Shy of most races except elves, and skilled at remaining undetected, these small archers are rarely seen, even when their homes are nearby.

Only a foot to eighteen inches tall, kercpas took like large red squirrels (sciuridae tamiasciurus), complete with bushy tails that help them keep their balance as they move along slender tree branches. Their eyes are brightly intelligent and green or hazel, though blue is not unknown. Their garb is similar to that of wood elves - green, russet, tan, and dark brown - enabling them to blend in with their surroundings. They do not cover their hands or feet, for this would impede their climbing. In the trees, they are as nimble and acrobatic as normal squirrels, running and leaping from branch to branch astonishing grace and ease.

Kercpas speak their own chattering language, and many speak the languages of other forest races: sylvan or wild elvish, treant, pixie, and so on. About one in ten know at least a little of the common tongue. Among themselves, kercpas can signal (using system of whistles and bird calls) to 100 yards distance.

Combat: Kercpas are peaceful by nature. However, they are quite able to defend themselves, their homes, and their elven allies, with a skill that belies their small size and rather harmless appearance. If motionless in forest terrain, they are 90% likely to remain unseen. Their great stealth in woodlands imposes a -5 penalty on others' surprise rolls, Their own keen senses mean they are surprised only on a roll of 1.

Though they never wear armor, their size and phenomenal agility combine to give kercpas an excellent Armor Class of 3. They make all saving throws as 7 Hit Die creatures - adjusted, when applicable, as if by a Dexterity of 19 (-4). Further, a kercpa can try to dodge any missile directed at it, provided that it could see the attack launched. A successful saving throw vs. death magic (modified by Dexterity) means the kercpa successfully dodged the attack, regardless of the attack roll. A kercpa can dodge up to two missiles per round in this way.

If forced into melee, kercpas wield tiny swords and spears that inflict only 1d3 points of damage. Aware of the disadvantage they suffer in hand-to-hand combat against most foes, kercpas prefer to use their tiny, toy like bows. Though these have only half the range and damage potential of a short bow (range: 25/50/75 yards; damage: 1d3), kercpa skill honed by intense training makes them formidable weapons; a kercpa can fire three times per round, with an attack bonus of +4.

A typical kercpa strategy is to take to the trees, surround the enemy and, darting in and out of concealment, rain a relentless barrage of stinging missiles from all sides. They usually are content to wound, discourage, and drive off intruders who do not press them. It is not uncommon for a band of orcs, gnolls or other forest marauders thus assaulted to believe themselves under attack by scores of the creatures when they are faced by only a dozen or so. The kercpas do their best to encourage this mistaken impression.

Should their opponents be too numerous to drive away, the kercpas try to lead the intruders out of their territory, goading them to the chase with taunts and jeers. The kercpa hope to fragment a larger band, get them hopelessly separated and lost in the woods, and then deal with the smaller groups one at a time. Some tribes, particularly those dwelling in or near enemy-infested lands, will lead pursuers into a n area of the forest rigged with concealed pits, deadfalls, and other traps. If this fails, the kercpas send runners to alert the nearest elves.

Kercpas coordinate and their tactics with a simple signaling system of whistles and bird calls (range: 100 yards). While limited in its range of expression, this system is an invaluable advantage in combat relying on cunning, stealth, subterfuge, and deception.

Throughout kercpa territory, the squirrel-folk stash caches of arrows and other supplies (in hollow branches, etc.), eliminating the need to return to the village to restock. All adults are intimately familiar with their home areas. Except in unusual cases - a quarry able to fly, pass without trace, or dimension door, for example - kercpas can track enemies in their home area like rangers. Kercpas with spellcasting ability use magic to support these tactics. Favorites include ventriloquism, taunt, wall of fog, and mirror image.

Habitat/Society: A typical kercpa tribe consists of adults, and a number of young equal to 20% of this number. Male and female kercpas are equally skilled fighters, while the young are noncombatants. The two key elements of kercpa society are the defenders and the shamans.

Defenders: One in every 20 kercpas is an exceptional individual with 2 Hit Dice, For every 100 in a community, one is a leader of 3 or 4 Hit Dice. As the most skilled fighters, the defenders organize patrols, maintain the village's defenses, and lead the tribe in attack, retreat and, if necessary, evacuation. They take their duties, seriously and will not hesitate to sacrifice themselves for the tribe if the situation warrants.

The base THAC0s, and base saving throws of defenders increase with their Hit Dice; for example, a 3 HD defender has a THAC0 of 17 and the base saving throw of a 9 HD creature.

Through trade with pixies, any defender is 25% likely to have 1d4 sleep arrows (save vs. poison or sleep 1d6 hours). These will not be wasted on enemies that can be defeated by other means.

Shamans: All kercpa tribes are led by a shaman of 4th or 5th level. For every 50 kercpas in the tribe, there will be 1d2 lesser shamans of 1st to 3rd level. Shamans receive an additional 1d4 hit points for every level they possess beyond the first, and fight as if having an additional Hit Die for every two levels they possess. They can cast spells from the following spheres; all, animal, creation, divination, healing, plant, sun, and weather. Kercpa shamans are skilled herbalists and can treat numerous, ailments. A typical kercpa healing potion restores 1d4+1 hit points, any kercpa traveling far outside the village is 75% likely to have one.

Kercpa shamans are responsible for preserving the tribe's health, providing advice and spiritual guidance, and presiding over ceremonies. In theory, the shamans govern all internal tribal matters, but in actuality kercpas are by nature cooperative, working together for the common good of the forest community. Internal and intertribal strife is unknown.

Most of the tribe's defenders are male, while most of the shamans are female. This is by no means the rule, and exceptions are not uncommon. The genders are in all ways equal (and difficult for outsiders to tell apart). Kercpas marry for life, and mates are fiercely protective of their young and of each other.

Some adult kercpas, as many as 5% dabble in magic, perhaps due to their close relationship with elves. These cast spells as wizards (if up to 4th level. They rarely learn spells of an offensive nature, and never those involving fire.

Kercpa villages consist of many small buildings located high among the branches, usually spread out among several trees. An elaborate highway of vine ladders and bridges connect their buildings. A village is difficult to see from the ground; even observant outsiders have but a 5% chance to notice it. Actively scanning high into the trees increases the chance to 10%. Villages in deciduous trees are more easily spotted in winter; the base chances are 15% and 50% respectively. In practice, the kercpas' vigilant scouts make it impossible for an intruder to come within a mile of one without their knowledge.

The squirrel-folk live by foraging. Dozens of small bands strike out daily from early spring to late fall to gather food, water, and other necessities. Surplus is stored away for the winter. Unlike true squirrels, kercpas do not hibernate, They are less active in the winter, and often sleep for much greater lengths of time. At least a third of the tribe remains active at all times in the event of a threat. Kercpas are strictly vegetarian; despite their archery skill, they do not hunt. Foraging expeditions rarely take them more than 10 miles from the village. If a tribe becomes too large for the immediate area, a group, mainly younger couples, breaks off to found a new village. Tribes in the same region meet on an annual basis (usually summer solstice) for a great festival. These celebrations last several days. The tribes renew familial ties, hold council on matters of mutual concern, introduce young adults to possible mates, and exchange goods and information. Music, song, dace, story -telling, friendly contests of archery, tumbling and speed, as well as an overabundance of food and blackberry wine round out the festive nature of the gathering.

The simple kercpa religion pays homage to a single deity, an earth goddess. The goddess, while said to be able to take any form in nature, is usually depicted as a vast oak tree. Religious ceremonies are few compared to those of most other races, and pious obligations are fulfilled simply by living in harmonious accord with nature.

Faced with ethical dilemma, kercpas seek precedent in the fables of Rititisk the Clever - the mythical patriarch of the race and try to emulate his example. Besides being entertaining stories of adventure in their own right - tales of Rititisk thwarting monstrous evil spiders, outwitting oafish giants (humans), questing to the ends of the earth for enchanted ever-striking arrows arid the like - the fables contain lessons to guide the kercpas through all aspects of fife. They are essential to every young kercpa's education.

Strangers traveling through kercpa lands will be trailed and their actions scrutinized (ideally without the kercpas revealing their presence) and allowed to pass unhindered if they do not cause harm to the forest. This remains the case even with obviously evil creatures such as orcs and goblins. The only exceptions to the kercpas' reclusiveness include certain sylvan neighbors who share an interest in preserving the woodland. Kercpas have ties of friendship and alliance to elves, sprites, and treants. They are indispensable to their elven neighbors, as they convey messages between camps, run errands, and keep them up to date on the latest happenings of the greater forest. In exchange, the elves serve at times as guardians and mentors for the squirrel-folk's children. Young kercpa delight in the company of these elegant, graceful beings, running amok through their homes and pestering their elven friends with endless questions and requests for tales of "olden times," Most elves seem to genuinely enjoy the kercpas' company as well.

On infrequent occasions, some human rangers and druids have made contact with and befriended (and been befriended by) the kercpas. A few bolder kercpas have been known to befriend parties of good-aligned adventurers, especially those containing elves, acting as guides and otherwise helping with their knowledge of the wilderness. Such examples of eccentric behavior are uncommon.

Ecology: The presence of kercpas is virtually unnoticeable; forests inhabited for twenty generations appear as virgin woodland even to careful scrutiny As even the concept of money is unknown to kercpas, they have produced and amassed little that others are interested in acquiring, This has not prevented evil creatures from hunting them out of sheer malice, however.

Frequent threats to the kercpas include giant spiders of all types, ettercaps, stirges, and even some raptors (such as giant owls). Kercpas are usually born singularly, though twins arid triplets are more common than with humans. They become mature at 15 and usually marry soon thereafter. Kercpas have an average life expectancy of 60 years.

-From DRAGON Magazine #214


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## Krishnath (Apr 26, 2005)

That is a nutkin if I ever saw one.

Monstrous Humanoid would be fine.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2005)

These little fellas are begging to be submitted to Winning Races.

And ditto for monstrous humanoid.

It sounds like they should either get the camouflage ability of the ranger and a big bonus to Hide checks in forest terrain.


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## BOZ (Apr 26, 2005)

definitely the Hide bonus in forest.

some preliminary stats for the kercpa:

*Kercpa*
Tiny Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 1d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), climb 40 ft
Armor Class: 17 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +1 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+X
Attack: Longsword +X melee (1d4/19-20) or spear +X melee (1d4/x3) or longbow +X ranged (1d4/x3)
Full Attack: Longsword +X melee (1d4/19-20) or spear +X melee (1d4/x3) or longbow +X ranged (1d4/x3)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: x
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex 19, Con X, Int 11, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X (Hide bonus, Listen & Spot bonus)
Feats: X (Alertness, Dodge Arrows?)

Environment: Temperate forest
Organization: Band (3-12) or tribe (100-300 plus 20% young) (plus…)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Often chaotic good?
Advancement: By character class?
Level Adjustment: +X


COMBAT

A kercpa is 1 – 1 ½ feet tall, and weighs only X pounds.

A kercpa can speak Sylvan, Elf, and Treant.  About one in ten kercpas also speak Common.  Kercpas can signal each other with a system of whistles and bird calls at a range of 300 feet.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2005)

Should that be a 1st-level warrior?  (I think so).

Assuming we approach them in this manner, would it be better to determine their stats first, then derive their racial ability score modifiers "as characters" later, or to determine the modifiers first, then apply them to the standard array?  (I'd go with the latter)


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## BOZ (Apr 27, 2005)

are Monstrous Humanoids statted as 1st-level warriors?  or are there just very few (none) 1-HD?


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## Filby (Apr 27, 2005)

WotC is kind of inconsistent about 1-HD non-humanoids. In the MM it says that only 1-HD humanoids exchange their first humanoid Hit Die for their first class level, and yet all the 1-HD non-humanoids they publish (lupins and t'kels from some recent issues of Dragon, for instance, the uldras from _Frostburn_, the elan from the _Expanded Psionics Handbook_) don't say anything about racial hit dice.

That said, I think any complication or confusion can be avoided with a note like the following, from the MM entry for pixies:

"A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level, so a 1st-level pixie sorcerer has a d4 Hit Die, a +0 base attack bonus, the base save bonuses of a sorcerer, and the sorcerer's skill points and class skills."


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## Shade (Apr 27, 2005)

Filby, that is a great idea!


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## BOZ (Apr 27, 2005)

yeah, that works.    well, in fact.


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## BOZ (May 2, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> It sounds like they should either get the camouflage ability of the ranger




damn my lack of having my books available...  (I left them in the hospital with my wife, hoping to make use of them if I found myself with nothing to do - which, I didn't.  )  what is this ability again?



> They make all saving throws as 7 Hit Die creatures - adjusted, when applicable




is there a way to apply this, and should we anyway?



> Further, a kercpa can try to dodge any missile directed at it, provided that it could see the attack launched. A successful saving throw vs. death magic (modified by Dexterity) means the kercpa successfully dodged the attack, regardless of the attack roll. A kercpa can dodge up to two missiles per round in this way.




would the feats in the PHB be able to cover this or should we stat up an ability?



> MORALE: Steady (12); with elves, Elite (14)




should we make use of this?



> A kercpa may fire up to three arrows per round




and this?



> Except in unusual cases - a quarry able to fly, pass without trace, or dimension door, for example - kercpas can track enemies in their home area like rangers.




Track as a bonus feat then?



> The squirrel-folk move with great stealth through the woodland, imposing a -5 penalty on others' surprise rolls. Due to their keen senses, they are themselves surprised only on a roll of 1.




sounds like a stationary bonus to Listen and Spot, and a conditional bonus to Hide and Move Silently.

Other than that stuff, they are basically all just flavor text beyond that.    lots of flavor text... I will have to summarize in a lot of places.


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## Shade (May 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> damn my lack of having my books available...  (I left them in the hospital with my wife, hoping to make use of them if I found myself with nothing to do - which, I didn't.  )  what is this ability again?




Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> is there a way to apply this, and should we anyway?




We could probably just give them a flat +1 racial bonus to all saves, like the halfling.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> would the feats in the PHB be able to cover this or should we stat up an ability?




We could give them Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat, and then add a Feats entry that states that they can use their Deflect Arrows feat twice per round.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> should we make use of this?




+1 or +2 morale bonus on attack rolls when adjacent to an allied elf?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> and this?




We could give them Rapid Shot or Manyshot as a bonus feat.  Three arrows is probably a bit excessive.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Track as a bonus feat then?




Yup.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds like a stationary bonus to Listen and Spot, and a conditional bonus to Hide and Move Silently.




I'd give 'em the same racial bonus to Spot and Listen as elves, and a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Other than that stuff, they are basically all just flavor text beyond that.    lots of flavor text... I will have to summarize in a lot of places.




So true!


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## BOZ (May 2, 2005)

some good ideas there, i'll look over them more when i have the time.  i think hide in plain sight might be a but much though.


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## Shade (May 2, 2005)

Yeah, HIPS would probably be excessive for its HD.


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## BOZ (May 9, 2005)

agreed.  i'll take a look at the rest of this soon.


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## BOZ (May 12, 2005)

posting this one in homebrews...


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## Shade (May 12, 2005)

The closest creature I can find for comparable ability scores is the grig, which is the exact same height.

Its physical scores are:  Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13.

Also, the grig weighs 1 pound, so the kercpa probably can as well.

I picture the kercpa as slightly sronger and heartier than the grig, so maybe Str 6, Con 14?

For the mental stats, I see good Wis and below average Cha.  Maybe Wis 12-13, Cha 8-9.

Or, to look at it a different way:

Str -6, Dex +8, Con +2, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha -2


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## BOZ (May 12, 2005)

Abilities: Str 6, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 9


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## Shade (May 12, 2005)

Brilliant!


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## BOZ (May 12, 2005)

LOL  it shows off my creativity...


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## LegacyKing (May 19, 2005)

Looks great, the one thing I'd change is straight from the conversion manual regarding Movement rate. By my calc, the Movement 9 should translate to Movement 30' using the conversion manual. 9 x 2.5 = 22.5 round up to the nearest multiple of 10 is 30'.

Sidenote: Glad to be home and see the conversion... Gonna head over to the "homebrew" section to see the final results.


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## BOZ (May 19, 2005)

it's more like 70% done - still need to add some flavor text and fix a few other things.


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## BOZ (May 23, 2005)

I will note that the difference between “saving as a 1-HD monster” and “saving as a 7-HD monster” in 3E is roughly the difference of +2 to the save (except for outsiders and dragons, which would be +3).  So, I will give them a +2 bonus on all saving throws.


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## Shade (May 23, 2005)

That's genius.  Pure genius!


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## BOZ (May 23, 2005)

LOL  as if...


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## BOZ (May 24, 2005)

what would be a good way to re-represent this text?



			
				MCA4 said:
			
		

> The two key elements of kercpa society are the defenders and the shamans.
> 
> Defenders: One in every 20 kercpas is an exceptional individual with 2 Hit Dice, For every 100 in a community, one is a leader of 3 or 4 Hit Dice. As the most skilled fighters, the defenders organize patrols, maintain the village's defenses, and lead the tribe in attack, retreat and, if necessary, evacuation. They take their duties, seriously and will not hesitate to sacrifice themselves for the tribe if the situation warrants.
> 
> ...


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## Shade (May 24, 2005)

I'd just state that defenders are xth-level rangers, while shamans are xth-level adepts or clerics.   They don't seem to have any really special abilities beyond those classes.


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## BOZ (May 24, 2005)

how about this line then?

Organization: Band (3-12) or tribe (100-300 plus 20% young, plus 1 2nd-level warrior? per 20 kercpas, 1 3rd-level ranger per 100 kercpas, 1 2nd-level adept per 50 kercpas, and 1 4th-level adept)

updated in homebrews...


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## Shade (May 24, 2005)

That looks good.  Warrior is probably fine for the standard folk.


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## BOZ (May 24, 2005)

updating in homebrews once again for good measure...


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## Shade (May 24, 2005)

OK, it looks like here's what's left:

Skills
Feats
CR
LA
Spot DC for village
Racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks
The rest of the "as characters section"
What to do with +2 racial bonus on all saving throws and +1 or +2 morale bonus on attack rolls when adjacent to an allied elf

Suggested Skill Ranks:  Hide 2, Listen 1, Move Silently 2, Spot 1, Survival 2

For feats, either Rapid Shot or Manyshot would require Point Blank Shot, so why not make PBS its normal feat, and make one of the other two another bonus feat?

Here's something that might help simulate its multiple shots better than Manyshot at this level.  It's from the targeteer specialist fighter variant in a past Dragon:

Arrow Swarm: By taking a -5 penalty to all attack rolls for a round, the targetteer may make two additional ranged attacks at his highest attack bonus. The targetteer must have the Rapid Shot feat to take this ability and must be making a full attack to make use of Arrow Swarm.


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## BOZ (May 25, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks




+4?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The rest of the "as characters section"
> What to do with +2 racial bonus on all saving throws and +1 or +2 morale bonus on attack rolls when adjacent to an allied elf




we could probably kill both of those birds with a single stone.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For feats, either Rapid Shot or Manyshot would require Point Blank Shot, so why not make PBS its normal feat, and make one of the other two another bonus feat?
> 
> Here's something that might help simulate its multiple shots better than Manyshot at this level.  It's from the targeteer specialist fighter variant in a past Dragon:
> 
> Arrow Swarm: By taking a -5 penalty to all attack rolls for a round, the targetteer may make two additional ranged attacks at his highest attack bonus. The targetteer must have the Rapid Shot feat to take this ability and must be making a full attack to make use of Arrow Swarm.




i like that last part.    we could keep just Deflect Arrows as the bonus feat, and make Track as the normal feat.  how's this:

Arrow Swarm (Ex): By taking a -5 penalty to all attack rolls for a round, a kercpa may make two additional ranged attacks at its highest attack bonus, as a full attack.


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## Shade (May 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> +4?




That sounds about right.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> we could probably kill both of those birds with a single stone.




True.  Those birds had it coming.    




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i like that last part.    we could keep just Deflect Arrows as the bonus feat, and make Track as the normal feat.  how's this:
> 
> Arrow Swarm (Ex): By taking a -5 penalty to all attack rolls for a round, a kercpa may make two additional ranged attacks at its highest attack bonus, as a full attack.




I think that'll work!


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## BOZ (May 25, 2005)

CR... 1/2 maybe, but could even be as high as 1?

updating in homebrews again... care to venture the "as characters" section?


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## Shade (May 25, 2005)

I think the arrow swarm ability alone warrants CR 1.    

Kercpa Characters

A kercpa character exchanges its 1 HD of monstrous humanoid for its first class level, so a 1st-level kercpa rogue has a d6 Hit Die, a +0 base attack bonus, the base save bonuses of a rogue, and the rogue's skill points and class skills.

Kercpa have the following racial traits.


-4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. 
Tiny size. +2 size bonus to Armor Class, +2 size bonus on attack rolls, +8 size bonus on Hide checks, -8 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits are ? of those of Medium characters. 
Monstrous Humanoid: As monstrous humanoids, kercpas are proficient with all simple weapons, but they have no proficiency with any armor or shield. 
A kercpa's base land speed is 20 feet.  A kercpa has a climb speed of 40 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet. 
Special Attacks (see above):  Arrow swarm.
Special Qualities (see above):  Camouflage.
+2 racial bonus on all saving throws
+1 or +2 morale bonus on attack rolls when adjacent to an allied elf?
Racial Skills:  Kercpas have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A kercpa can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A kercpa uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its Strength modifier for Climb checks.  A kercpa has a +4 bonus on Listen and Spot checks.  *A kercpa has a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks when in forested areas.
Racial Feats: A kercpa receives Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat and can use its Deflect Arrows feat twice per round.
Automatic Languages: Elven, Kercpa, Sylvan, and Treant. Bonus Languages: Common, (others?).
Favored Class: Ranger (?). 
Level Adjustment: +3.

LA Breakdown:
-1 for size
+1 for climb speed
+1 for natural armor
+1 for three or more racial bonuses on skill checks
+1 for unbalanced ability scores


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## BOZ (May 25, 2005)

that all sounds pretty good.    updating in homebrews for another look... check to see how everything fits in together.


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## Shade (May 25, 2005)

We still need to resolve this:



> +1 or +2 morale bonus on attack rolls when adjacent to an allied elf?




How about this:

Sylvan Bond (Ex):  Kercpas have long fought alongside elves, and train in special tactics with them from a young age.  A kercpa gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls when adjacent to an allied elf.

Add the +2 racial bonus on all saving throws to the stat block.


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## BOZ (May 25, 2005)

that works for me.


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## BOZ (May 26, 2005)

i went with 20 for the Spot check to notice a village.  not too high is that?  i wouldn't have a problem lowering it to 15 but any lower than that is no challenge.

updating in homebrews yet again...


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## Shade (May 26, 2005)

20 might be a little high for something as big as a village (albeit a village of Tiny beings).  I'd drop it to 15.

After looking through the Homebrews writeup again, I think they're finished.


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## GrayLinnorm (May 26, 2005)

If you're finished with these guys, I would love to see the sea hermit (from Monstrous Compendium Annual 4) converted.  Please?


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## LegacyKing (May 26, 2005)

Wow, that looks great. LA+3  Whoa...

Only minor correction - Unless the conversions changed from 3e to 3.5e - is the land speed should be 30. MM4 MV9 Climb 15 translates to 30 & 40 (9x2.5 =22.5 per conversion round up to nearest 10 is 30).

I would disagree about the spot DC, those villages are supposed to be difficult to find according to the original write-up. DC 15 translates to a 25% success rate in an untrained observer.

Once again great job guys!!!


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## Shade (May 26, 2005)

I think BOZ still owes someone the viruses from one of the MCs first.


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## BOZ (May 26, 2005)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> If you're finished with these guys, I would love to see the sea hermit (from Monstrous Compendium Annual 4) converted.  Please?




those are the things with a mobile fortress on their backs aren't they?



			
				LegacyKing said:
			
		

> Wow, that looks great. LA+3  Whoa...




they do have a lot of neat abilities... and a high level kercpa could get pretty scary!    



			
				LegacyKing said:
			
		

> Only minor correction - Unless the conversions changed from 3e to 3.5e - is the land speed should be 30. MM4 MV9 Climb 15 translates to 30 & 40 (9x2.5 =22.5 per conversion round up to nearest 10 is 30).




the guidelines are great, but weren't meant to be followed religously.  



			
				LegacyKing said:
			
		

> I would disagree about the spot DC, those villages are supposed to be difficult to find according to the original write-up. DC 15 translates to a 25% success rate in an untrained observer.
> 
> i'm going to have to go with my instinct and agree with you there.  higher than DC 15 seems logical.  back to 20?
> 
> ...


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## LegacyKing (May 26, 2005)

Cool, just wanted to make sure the movement figure had been accounted for and I wasn't missing something. Speedy little devils!

Yeah, I would love a copy of the LA adjustment factors, that thing does help.

Scary High Level Kercpa... Agreed.  

*ADDED: Low level though the three arrows only do 1 pt of damage per arrow, which granted could take down a goblin or orc in a round or two...

DC:20 seems right, those orcs and other have about a 1 in 20 being an untrained observer.*

I think the LA should be +2 though. Looking at the LA+1 for three or more racial bonuses on skill checks isn't that redundant because they gain the Racial Climb bonus from the fact they have a Climb movement? Or is that because of a circumstantial bonus when in the Forest (Hide & Move Silent). We are already tacking on LA+1 for the Climb Speed. (Is that any climb speed or higher than 30?) 

Wow, just about finished. Thanks Boz and Shade.


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## Shade (May 26, 2005)

LegacyKing said:
			
		

> I think the LA should be +2 though. Looking at the LA+1 for three or more racial bonuses on skill checks isn't that redundant because they gain the Racial Climb bonus from the fact they have a Climb movement? Or is that because of a circumstantial bonus when in the Forest (Hide & Move Silent). We are already tacking on LA+1 for the Climb Speed. (Is that any climb speed or higher than 30?)
> 
> Wow, just about finished. Thanks Boz and Shade.




According to the Savage Species method, just having a climb speed is an instant +1.  I figured the 3 or more bonuses to be Listen, Spot, and the situational bonus in their favored environment.  I wouldn't recommend going any lower than +3, because that arrow swarm is very potent.  

Thanks for the feedback!


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## LegacyKing (May 26, 2005)

No, thank you. You're the ones doing the hard part, I'm just the armchair quarterback.

I'm just looking to learn how to convert in case anything else I find in the old books looks interesting.


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## Shade (May 26, 2005)

Converting is largely practice and having the right resources.   Some good sources of conversion information are the Monster Manual, the old 2E to 3E conversion guide from WOTC, the 3.5 conversion guide, Savage Species, and these forums.

Keep the feedback coming...it keeps us honest.


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

agreed!


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## LegacyKing (May 27, 2005)

Hey no problem, I appreciate the timely responses I am getting today.

Shade: That arrow swarm is a nifty ability and I agree it should warrant a CR of 1, but the ability to cause 3 hp of damage in one round isn't really all that big, at least in the grand scheme of things. Give that ability to a 1st level human fighter and then we'd see some serious damage, 3d8 or so... Or heavy Xbow 3d10. But a Kercpa would need some serious magic boost to make the Arrow Swarm more significant. That is why I think the LA+2 is a better deal. Especially at the trade offs. 

Size makes their physical attacks null, they get no AoO and provoke one if they engage in meele, their damage is low and their movement is the same as a small creature, so LA-1 sounds good; 
They get to climb, ok LA+1 (Does that also apply to creatures able to fly?)
They have those Racial skills that make them harder to be found and operate better in their home turf LA+1, compared to an Elf (no LA at all) who have three Racial Skills and have immunity to magic sleep and a +2 bonus against enchantment school spells, well I find the comparison very telling. So I'd drop the LA+1 for that, since a standard elf is LA+0 for the racial skills, not to mention the fact they have some innate resistance.
Kercpa get a +2 save bonus which compared to the elf or a halfling or dwarf isn't bad at all.
LA+1 for Unbalanced Ability Scores, Yes, I agree that seems very appropriate.
LA+1 for Natural Armor? Wow, 1 whole point... Kercpa should be avoiding battle, so does that really matter? Ok, ok they can get the Natural Armor feat to increase it by one, I cannot see a Kercpa wearing armor.

Now, if we have a Kercpa Rogue then, maybe then I might agree that the Arrow Swarm could be huge. Sneak Attack 1+1d6 or 1+2d6, those three extra attacks would cool, but a human rogue could get the same feat and still do more damage. So again a moot point. Kercpa are more guerilla tactics, combat commandos. 

LA+3 range are Gnome, svirfneblin; Kuo-toa; natural Lycanthrope.
LA+2 range are Drow, Centaur, Githyanki, Githzerai, Ogre, Minotaur, Trolodyte, Afflicted Lycanthrope.

So, what makes the Kercpa equal to a Natural Lycanthrope and better than a drow?

Sorry got into a kinda rant mode, but I feel better now. As Boz said, we don't need to follow the guidelines religiously. 
All: Should the Kercpa get auto prof. with the weapons listed? ie. Long Sword, Spear & Long Bow.

Obviously those that become Fighters, Warriors and Rangers would get the Martial Feat Automatically, but what about Clerics, Druids & the Shamans?

Arrow Swarm sounds like bows, not a crossbow... But I re-wrote this cause I re-read it and it did say any ranged attack. Just can't see Kercpa toting a crossbow...

I only ask cause the Kercpa I have in my game is the party cleric. He's more effective with spells than physical combat. Ping! Ouch 1 hp of damage! vs. Knifespray 1d6+4...

Thanks guys.


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## Shade (May 27, 2005)

Technically, they work out to be a +4 LA, so I already cut them some slack.    

I think you hit the nail on the head for arrow swarm, in that its real effectiveness lies not in straight damage, but sneak attacks, delivering energy burst arrow enhancements, and so forth.   Anything that grants extra attack is especially deadly.

The drow have great spell resistance and superior darkvision.  Past that, they aren't any more impressive than a +0 race.

Lycanthropes should, by their own rules, have a higher LA than +3.   Damage reduction, natural armor, really unbalanced ability scores, and extra feats should bump them up much higher.  A better comparison for +3 in this case would be the grig.  The grig doesn't appear any more powerful than the kercpa, does it?

Monstrous humanoids are proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in their entries, so it would gain auto proficiency with longsword, longbow, and spear. 

Another thought:  Should kercpa be allowed to enter the arcane archer class, due to their affinity with elves?  The reason I say that is this passage from Races of Faerun:

"Prestige Classes: Centaurs can become arcane archers, members of a prestige class normally reserved for elves and half-elves. They do not have any special prestige classes of their own."

It would seem that kercpa spend far more time fighting with elves than centaurs, and it would add a nice bit of flavor to them.


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Another thought:  Should kercpa be allowed to enter the arcane archer class, due to their affinity with elves?  The reason I say that is this passage from Races of Faerun:
> 
> "Prestige Classes: Centaurs can become arcane archers, members of a prestige class normally reserved for elves and half-elves. They do not have any special prestige classes of their own."
> 
> It would seem that kercpa spend far more time fighting with elves than centaurs, and it would add a nice bit of flavor to them.




that might be a pretty cool idea.


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## LegacyKing (May 27, 2005)

Ok, I just took a glance at the Grig and I was blown away. In a head-to-head combat the grig wins. No challenge, period.

Grig has: Damage Reduction 5/cold iron (I'm a tough bugger); Spell Resistance 17 (I'm resistant to your spells); Spell like abilities cast at 9th level (I'm good with me spells) with the DC being charisma (+1 DC) - Those spells are Disguise Self, Entangle, Invisibilty, Pyrotechnics & Ventriloquism. All can be used 3/day. Add the Fiddle (Su) with Otto's irresistible dance for a duration as long as the fiddler plays (Oh I feel an all nighter coming boys!)... +8 Racial bonus to jump; in the forest a +5 to Move Silently. Hide is also 16 naturally (I hide better than that overgrown squirrel).
They also begin with one bonus feat and standard feat. 
Comparitively the Stats are the same as being unbalanced. I can understand the LA+3 

Kercpa has: Arrow Swarm (Gain ability to add additional two shots with all three at -5 to hit); Camouflage (I can Hide anywhere natural) , Sylvan Bond (+1 to hit when adjacent to elf)
Same two feat set-up (1 bonus and one normal)

Now please, tell me how a Kercpa even compares to the grig except for being the same size... 

The Arrow Swarm can be deadly in anybodies hands. I'm assuming that the description mean arrow swarm only requires that you first have PSB and it's open to anyone, correct? So I take a 1st level human rogue and those same feats are available, or an Elf Fighter. So again, that Arrow Swarm is handy but not exclusive. The write-up also indicates Kercpa prefer peaceful means over combat (Shucks, they let evil creatures wander around the area without molestation, UNLESS they are causing mischief).
So, the LA seems a bit overblown. All the abilities I see give them a better ability to hide and ensure they can drive off their enemies. The Sylvan bond bestows a +1 when Adjacent, which means el Kercpa needs to get near an elf (Essentially a free bless spell). 

Grig - Spell Resistance & spells as 9th level makes it the same as a drow. Add the Damage Reduction and now we have LA+3 

Kercpa - "I can hide and shoot my bow three times" 

Arcane Archer - Sounds awesome, good idea Shade!


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## Shade (May 27, 2005)

Ok, maybe the grig wasn't such a good example.    

You are obviously passionate about the +2, and since I've never met anyone so passionate about an LA before, I'm tempted to give in.  If BOZ is OK with the +2, I can live with it.


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## LegacyKing (May 27, 2005)

Just trying to apply a little logic to a fantasy world  Besides, it allows more ideas to come forth and give a fair shake at what we are trying to do...

The trend I see in the Monster Manuals is:
LA+3 have better combat abilities and can take a beating or they have superior magical abilities
LA+2 have a couple of unbalancing things whether combat or magic or superior skills
LA+1 has an ability above the norm like an Aasimars Resistance to three forms of energy

My point is for all the bells and whistles the little guys aren't heavy in any of the three categories. Their biggest thing is hiding. Combat they don't have, Magic they don't have, Superior ability to hide they do have, which in D&D isn't a big thing, unless you are trying to avoid things. (Typical party wouldn't do that)

I'm passionate about keeping things balanced... Like you both said, it keeps you honest. I actually enjoy the debate. Comparing Fey to Monstrous Humanoid is a bit lopsided agreed.

I'd even say LA+1 would be reasonable. On the comparison chart of LAs in my mind they aren't on par with Drow or Afflicted Lycanthropes or Ogres. Drow have increasing SR w/ innate spells; Afflicted Lycanthropes have DR and superior feats and Ogres have superior combat ability. In that arena of creatures I just can't see the kercpa as being all that. Even their Archery at -5 gives them a +2 to hit with the Arrow Swarm...

LA+1 - Superior Skills (hiding), above average racial saves (+2) and ability to do Arrow Swarm. They don't have innate resistances, they don't have innate magical abilities and they don't have any Damage Reduction.

Seriously, if you were a player given the choice of LA+2 creatures which do you think would be chosen the least? 

On another note: Is climb strictly up/down or can it be side-to-side?

Thanks guys (Boz & Shade)...


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## Shade (May 27, 2005)

I definitely wouldn't go lower than +2.  They are actually much stronger in combat than is immediately apparent:


Arrow Swarm:  While they don't do much damage now, they have many ways to increase it.  The LA has to cover not just entry-level.  If one of these fellas takes Rapid Shot, it can get anywhere from 4 to 7 attacks per round.  Archers are extremely lethal with just Rapid Shot alone, and in my experiences, hitting isn't usually too much of a problem, as they usually focus heavily on Dex, and many feats (such as Point Blank Shot) increase the attack modifiers.
Speaking of Dex, they get a +8 racial bonus to it!  This is huge, considering it will most likely be their prime stat, as their favored class is ranger and they focus on archery.
Not only do they get Deflect Arrows (a nice feat) as a bonus feat, but they can use it better than other characters (twice per round).

If I were playing a ranger, or archer-style fighter, or rogue, I'd almost always pick these guys over a drow.  Sure, the drow has rockin' spell resistance, but its ability score modifiers and spell-like abilities don't really benefit this ability.  

In almost all situations, I think most people would pick the kercpa over the githyanki or githzerai as well, which both have poor spell resistance, far worse ability score adjustments, but a few decent spell-like abilities.

I'm glad you like the arcane archer bit.  One of my players will almost certainly wish he could trade his current elven arcane archer for a kercpa one.


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

LegacyKing said:
			
		

> Just trying to apply a little logic to a fantasy world




don't do that, you'll hurt your brain!


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

you can hash out the LA however you like - it's one stat i usually don't care much about.  

i can see why LegacyKing has a keen interest in the LA for this creature, since he intends to make one or more characters with levels.    LA is a wonderful thing for balance, but it sucks to have to "dumb your character down" to fit in with other creatuers of his level. 

one question - since it has that "trades the first HD for 1 level of X class" then is a 1st-level kercpa with LA +3 an ECL 3 or ECL 4?  that makes a big difference you know...


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## LegacyKing (May 28, 2005)

Boz: Logic is very perverse in fantasy... LOL. I try to use it in the absence of other rules. Yeah, I already have a player who has a Kercpa Cleric. His current strength lies in his mobility and spells.

Shade: Yeah, at higher levels things get pretty nasty, but so does any other character/creature. Our Kercpa needs to take PBS and then Rapid Shot. Which I would contend would equal out for any other high level character. Wow, I didn't realize the 7 shot factor...

So let's do a quick comparison between a 1st level human (I chose human for the extra Feat) and 1st level kercpa (both fighters):
Human takes PBS, Arrow Swarm and Rapid Shot. His Dex would be 18 (+4) and Str 15 (+2 damage) BAB+1 +4 Dex +0 Size Total=+5 Damage 1d8+2 Average Damage 5.5 per hit
7x5 =38 (Average chance of hitting)

Kercpa would trade out Track for PBS and Take Rapid Shot (He already has Arrow Swarm & Deflect Arrows) His Dex would be 26 (+8) and Str 11.
BAB+1 +8 Dex +2 Size = 11 to hit Damage 1d4 average 2.5 per hit
7x2 =17 (Higher chance of hitting)

I forgot to factor in PBS but since both have it I figure it cancels out...

So yeah the Kercpa has better to hit (+6 after the minuses so he'll hit more often but the damage is still low). I can see both LA+1 AND +2 it just depends on how you view the numbers. 
Good points though. I try to not factor in what added classes will give since all characters and monsters get essentially the same benefits from class levels. Each recieved a feat every three levels and BAB increases, and stat increase every 4 levels.

Also, depending on how mean a GM is, magic tiny arrows aren't something you come across. So where normal archers can find magic arrows a Kercpa needs to commission those magic arrows. I think the cost would be approx. the same since the levels needed to enchant don't factor in size. I guess the real question is how much is that +11 (+6) to hit really worth vs. the increased damage for the lack of the hit bonus? Also many spells that affect projectiles only affect a limited amount, so the 7 attacks may not all get the benefit.

I guess in my mind we are walking a high LA+1 to Low LA+2. After all the abilities given to the kercpa remain the same except for level gains. They can climb naturally (Which nobody has answered the Climb Question and I'll add a few more along those lines) Can a Natural climber scale a wall and while holding on Attack or Cast? Is the Climb movement limited to up and down or can they go from side to side (Thereby overcoming their "walk" movement rate).

LA+1 Unbalanced Stats (Yes) Kercpa Strength
LA-1 Size (Yes)
LA+1 Climb (??? Not sure if I would agree) How does this dramatically affect the game? 
LA+1 Racial Bonuses exceeding two (Yeah, I can agree) Course looking at a Weasel or Dog (if they could be a PC) would mean they automatically incur a LA+1

A Weasel would be a LA+2 by those rules (Size-1;Climb+1;Racial+1;Unbalaced Stats+1), course weasels are a very lousy comparison cause they don't shoot bows... But that is my fantasy logic for you...

Boz: LA adds to the current level. 1HD or 1st level are both considered 1+LA=ECL. So if you use the example of LA+3 then ECL would be 4. Drow begins play as a 3rd level character with the LA+2

Another overlooked thing is the character essentially begins play at the ECL with the appropriate amount of funds and experience.

I think there are many valid points for LA+1 just as there are many valid points for LA+2. I will be satisfied with LA+2 as you are the monster conversion specialists. Granted sometimes the WotC don't seem to follow their own rules for LA, but as Boz says it's the least number he is concerned with... 

Yeah, I don't know to much about the Arcane Archer, but I figure it sounds cool. Elves get  the cool stuff. 

Thanks Shade - You are a great debater... Always a pleasure to get a well versed expert's knowledge of the rules and how they affect gameplay.


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## BOZ (May 28, 2005)

you have all weekend to debate it.  after this post, i won't be around the CC forums until at least sunday.


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## Flynn01 (May 28, 2005)

*Further Kercpa - will the chittering pine-scented madness ever end?*

Hi all,

I play the kercpa cleric in LegacyKing's campaign. I'm not a rogue, I'm not a ranger-archer. I've not found any magical *tiny* weapons, cloaks, rings, much less arrows.

I've been playtesting your kercpa suggestions through many iterations now. So a kercpa has the same LA as ogre and minotaur, drow and afflicted lycanthrope? That makes it fair when a first level kercpa cleric is partying with 3rd level characters? I have to say, it doesn't playtest that way.

One thing not mentioned in the conversion is the question of armor. Can kercpa wear armor? Are they limited to a Light? Do they suffer penalties in Heavy (Other than the ones heavy normally conveys)? One Kercpa decription said something to the effect that they don't wear armor. If they have armor restrictions and you give them a narural armor not even comparable to leather, then suggest (as was stated previously), that deserves LA+1 right there, that's pretty harsh.

Dont get me wrong, I enjoy my character. I like getting into Squirrel-like mischeif. 

Nor am I trying to jockey for a 'break' or 'extras' in my campaign. I've never converted a race to 3.5 and I don't claim to know as much about the rules as *any* of you. I just wanted to share my observastions from a *beta* playtesting standpoint.


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## BOZ (May 31, 2005)

thanks for the response!    we can keep this conversion open for awhile; i don't mind.

if you haven't found any items sized for your PC, then bug your DM.    cloaks, rings, and other wearable items are technically supposed to size themselves for your character regardless of your size unless your DM rules otherwise.  weapons and armor, on the other hand, you're stuck with them as they are.

one thing to keep in mind: ogres and minotaurs for example have a higher ECL than a kerpca would, because ECL = LA + HD.  don't know about drow off the top of my head.  ECL should be what your character's level is based on, not LA alone.

as for armor... i didn't think of that.    they *can* wear armor, but they generally don't.  it interferes with their climbing and mobility, so anything with a penalty of -1 or worse would be something a normal kercpa wouldn't even consider wearing.



> Nor am I trying to jockey for a 'break' or 'extras' in my campaign. I've never converted a race to 3.5 and I don't claim to know as much about the rules as *any* of you. I just wanted to share my observastions from a *beta* playtesting standpoint.




we don't get enough of that, and we appreciate it.    i'm going to let Shade field the rest of your concerns.


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## BOZ (May 31, 2005)

one other thing... i added that +1 natural armor only to make their AC comparable to the 2E stats.  if it's more trouble than it's worth (and i'm beginning to suspect that it is), i have no problem with getting rid of it.


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## Shade (May 31, 2005)

Sorry, I was gone all 3-day weekend, so I wasn't able to debate.    

BOZ - I do agree that the natural armor should probably go away.

Flynn01, LegacyKing -  Thanks for the continuing feedback.  This is great.

I've looked 'em over again, and honestly, there is no way these guys can be +1 LA.  Look at all the other +1 LA races, and none have stat modifiers so huge.  

I realize that the kercpa does not make an optimal cleric.  But neither does a half-orc, or a goliath, for that matter.  Now look at a kercpa ranger, and compare it to other races:

3rd-level elven ranger:  Dex +2, +3 ranger BAB.  That's a total of +5 on ranged attack rolls.

3rd-level halfling ranger:  Dex +2, +1 size, +3 ranger BAB.  Total +6 ranged attack bonus.

1st-level kercpa ranger:  Dex +8, +2 attack bonus for Tiny size, +1 ranger BAB.  That's a +11 on ranged attacks rolls at 3rd-level equivalency!   Using its arrow swarm ability, it can make three ranged attacks at +6 attack bonus.  That is two more attacks that are as likely to hit as the halfling and more likely to hit than the elf.   

So although the damage is slightly less than the halfling and far less than the elf, the frequency of hits should offset this.   The WOTC designers have stated many times that attack bonus is far more important than damage bonus.

Now, it is unfortunate that LAs don't change based on class, as I will agree that the stats aren't quite as useful for a typical cleric.  However, the +2 to Wis and +4 to Con are a definite benefit to any cleric.

BOZ - We should add typical domains for kercpa.  I assume they'll worship elven deities, which would really benefit kercpa clerics as many of the elven deities have longbow as a favored weapon.  A few even have the war domain which gives free Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with the favored weapon.

Oh, and for the Climb question earlier:



			
				Monster Types and Abilities said:
			
		

> Climb: A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb it moves at double the given climb speed (or its base land speed, whichever is lower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Creatures cannot run while climbing. A creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature.






			
				Climb Skill Description said:
			
		

> Check: With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, a wall, or some other steep incline (or even a ceiling with handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.
> 
> You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You also can’t use a shield while climbing.




So, essentially, a kercpa must use both hands to climb, but it can stop at any point and hang on and use one hand for something else.  In most cases, the kercpa would want to climb to a ledge where it can snipe with its bow, since the bow can't be used one-handed.  A hand crossbow would work, though, as would a light crossbow (with a small penalty).  It can move side-to-side as well as up-and-down.

I hope all this helps clarify things for you guys.


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## BOZ (May 31, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> BOZ - I do agree that the natural armor should probably go away.




it shall be done.  

i think the tail is a climbing aid, so maybe it can be used as an extra limb for such purposes?


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## Shade (May 31, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i think the tail is a climbing aid, so maybe it can be used as an extra limb for such purposes?




Here's what we gave the phanaton:

Prehensile Tail (Ex): A phanaton’s tail allows it to use its tail to manipulate objects. The tail can be used as an extra hand for Multiweapon Fighting and grants a phanaton a +2 competence bonus on grapple checks and Climb checks. 

I just checked the monkey, and a few other critters I thought had prehensile tails.  Unfortunately, none are described as being able to use the tail as an extra limb.  The Climb skill description doesn't really allow for it either.  As a DM, I'd allow it, but I'm not sure if we should include it in the conversion.


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## BOZ (May 31, 2005)

the tail isn't really for handling objects, just to help make climbing easier.


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## Shade (May 31, 2005)

Gotcha.  What do you propose, then?


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## BOZ (May 31, 2005)

hmm, maybe nothing after all.


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## LegacyKing (Jun 2, 2005)

Hope you guys had a great memorial day weekend...

I agree with the LA for class specific - Too bad. Yeah, after that comparison I'd agree the little guys should be LA+2. 

Natural Armor -
I think if we agree LA+2 is reasonable then there is no reason to remove the natural armor AC bonus of 1. When I did my own conversion I didn't include natural armor because the write up only had Dex and size (which seemed to make sense to me). WIth NA they can get an extra 1 AC if they take Improved NA. But it doesn't make much difference to me... Keep or remove.

Arrow swarm: Hmm, in the old 2nd edition archers were able to make 2 attacks a round (at first level), so the kercpa making the extra '3rd' attack wasn't all that bad. In the new edition the rules make all weapons one attack to start with... So if we base our details on what the rules of the older version gave then in essence the kercpa were given an extra attack over other comparable archers. I think if you became a specialist (going off memory which is quite hazy) you gained a third shot. So If we made the Arrow Swarm a "lesser version" and only allowed one extra attack that would put it back in the perspective. What do you guys think. Is there a feat that does just an extra attack? Also, would that make much of a difference in the LA situation? Just a thought.

Tail? Yeah, I don't think they need the tail deal as it makes no mention of it in the original write up.

Pantheons: Yeah, I just followed the write up and used the 'Earth Goddess', they have a write up about the kercpa and their deity. Although I can't find anything comparable to use so maybe opening it up to the elven pantheon would be good.

Climb - Yeah, I read that but it does not mention if the movement is restricted to up/down or in any direction. Good to know about the no run speed for climb.

I apologize as I've been out of the loop. Glad to see some debate still going on...


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## BOZ (Jun 3, 2005)

LegacyKing said:
			
		

> Tail? Yeah, I don't think they need the tail deal as it makes no mention of it in the original write up.




i thought i saw something, but when i went back and looked i realized i was wrong.


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## LegacyKing (Jun 12, 2005)

Any replies to my last post? Anyone? Shade, Boz? Bueller... Bueller.

Recap - Should we make the Arrow Swarm just an extra shot, instead of three to bring balance to the original write-up? (See original post for explanation)

Natural armor - Keep or lose, the NA is only to get the original AC of the 2nd ed write-up. (I don't think it unbalances the character either way)


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2005)

Sorry for the slow response.  I've been busy up to my eyeballs in other things.

Arrow Swarm:  I think it is fine to keep it at two additional attacks.  It gives them an interesting racial "edge" to their niche.   It could be reduced to one additional attack, but then it is really just a worse version of rapid shot.  It wouldn't reduce the LA, though.  The only way to get that LA down to 1 would be to seriously nerf the ability score bonuses, and I dont' think that's a good idea. 

Natural armor: It makes no difference to me whether it keeps it or not.  However, it doesn't make much sense that it would have unusally thick fur.  Comparing to other animals, cats and monkeys don't have natural armor, dogs and badgers do.  I think squirrels are closer to the first group, but I'm not opposed to the +1 natural armor.

I read the following as indicating side-to-side movement is allowed:



			
				Originally Posted by Climb Skill Description said:
			
		

> Check: With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, *or across * a slope, a wall, or some other steep incline (or even a ceiling with handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.


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## BOZ (Jun 13, 2005)

i'm in favor of keep arrow swarm and remove natural armor.


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## Krishnath (Jun 13, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm in favor of keep arrow swarm and remove natural armor.



I agree with Boz on that one. (Hi everbody! *waves*)

Also, a note on the LA, as it is obviously needed before you make a huge mistake.

The LA needs to be +3, trust me on this one.

Two bonus attacks with their bow (sure it won't deal a lot of damage due to their size, but when you start factoring in some of the things that can be done with arrows, such as poison or fire, nasty) for one is enough to increase their LA by one, then when you factor in the other stuff like the incredibly unbalanced ability scores. On the other hand, the climb speed should not increase the LA as it is a movement type that is not gamebreaking, unlike flying.

Anyway:

-1 for size.
+1 for Arrow Swarm.
+1 for unbalanced ability scores.
+1 for skill bonuses.
+1 for the +2 bonus on all saves.

It's really the last one of thos listed that boosts it to LA +3.

Just saying, that's all.


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## LegacyKing (Jun 13, 2005)

*Waves back at Krish* Hey long time no see, welcome to the 'Great Debate' (C)

LA+1 for the saves? Hmm, I was under the impression the saves were akin to the Halfling save of +1. Does the saves really make them that much tougher to GM? I suppose we could knocked it down to +1 across the board if it is really that big a deal.

I agree, the climb speed isn't all that. Flyers can cause more difficulty than a climber.

Wow, I should do "Bueller" more often, it seems to get results.

Ok, keep the "devasting" Arrow Swarm for a cool racial edge (love the phrase Shade), drop the Natural Armor (Yeah, really thick fur) *chuckle*.

Consensus people - LA +2 or LA +3?  I think LA+2 is right for the power level. Super archers they are, I think starting ECL of 3 is good as is. Shade, Boz?  I vote LA+2 (Shucks the werewolf is a bigger headache to GM than a Kercpa, trust me on that.)

Phew, other than the LA debate I think the Kercpa is done... Unless there is something I missed.

What is next on the Menu? *Grabs fork and knife*


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2005)

I still stand by my original assessment of +3, but I won't curl up into a fetal position and cry myself to sleep if the consesus is +2.


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## BOZ (Jun 14, 2005)

either is fine by me.  legacy - if the LA winds up being too high for your campaign, you can always remove some of the bonuses and that will bring the LA down to a more manageable level for you.


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## LegacyKing (Jun 14, 2005)

Boz: I'll keep it at LA+2 for my campaign. (The power of the GM is strong).

My vote is LA+2 but the group wisdom of converters seems to go for LA+3. Personally I'm using the variant rules from UA for buying down Level Adjustment at certain levels. Of all the numbers, LA seems to be the most 'subjective'

Great Job everybody.


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## Krishnath (Jun 14, 2005)

LegacyKing said:
			
		

> *Waves back at Krish* Hey long time no see, welcome to the 'Great Debate' (C)
> 
> LA+1 for the saves? Hmm, I was under the impression the saves were akin to the Halfling save of +1. Does the saves really make them that much tougher to GM? I suppose we could knocked it down to +1 across the board if it is really that big a deal.




The halfling gets the save bonus as compensation for their small size, can't have a LA -1 race now, can we? 

Same reason the Gnome gets its magical abilities.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2005)

LegacyKing said:
			
		

> My vote is LA+2 but the group wisdom of converters seems to go for LA+3. Personally I'm using the variant rules from UA for buying down Level Adjustment at certain levels. Of all the numbers, LA seems to be the most 'subjective'




We're using these too.  I think this is one of the best ideas ever.  Now players aren't so bummed about being aasimars at epic-levels, being a level behind and regretting that they weren't just humans in the first place.


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## BOZ (Jun 14, 2005)

so... LA +3 then?


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## LegacyKing (Jun 15, 2005)

I guess so. 

What's next?


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## BOZ (Jun 15, 2005)

i beleive there was a request awhile back...  



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> If you're finished with these guys, I would love to see the sea hermit (from Monstrous Compendium Annual 4) converted.  Please?


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## Beyond the Grave (Jun 15, 2005)

was looking at the list of yet-to-be-converted, and noticed this little tidbit....
I believe that the Troll Mutate from Gates of Firestorm Peak has been translated already in the form of the "Psuedonatural Troll" featured in the Epic Level handbook, but i could be wrong.....

and when the sea hermit is finished, could the Bloodsipper and/or Gibberling, Brood (also of Gates of Firestorm Peak) be translated? Please? 

Much 'bliged.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i beleive there was a request awhile back...




Quite awhile back.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 26, 2005)

I think the bloodsipper would fit in with a "Plants of the Far Realm" article.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2005)

Yeah it would...good call!


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## Beyond the Grave (Nov 3, 2005)

I've actually converted the Bloodsipper myself.... as well as the Silver Tongue from the original Gates of Firestorm peak module which never actually made it into any monstrous compendium, for some reason. Also gave the Acidic Broadleaf plant from the module a full stat write-up.... 

and a plants of the Far Realm article would be just awesome....


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

sea hermit... *casts "remind self"* - will try to get to this Monday or Tuesday.  

appeared in MC Annual #4 and Red Steel MC online - is this MC still available online and if so anyone have a link to the sea hermit therein?


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

I'll do you one better:

Hermit, Sea
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Any coastal
FREQUENCY:	Very rare
ORGANIZATION:	Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Any
DIET:	Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE:	Genius (17–18)
TREASURE:	H
ALIGNMENT:	Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING:	1
ARMOR CLASS:	0 (3)
MOVEMENT:	6, Sw 12
HIT DICE:	10+5
THAC0:	9
NO. OF ATTACKS:	2
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	2d8/2d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES:	Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	15%
SIZE:	G (40' long)
MORALE:	Champion (15–16)
XP VALUE:	8,000

The sea hermit poses a very significant danger to the unwary. This creature appears to be nothing more than a lonely, benevolent person living in a huge shell on a deserted beach. It can appear as a human, tortle, lupin, etc., acting the role of a recluse happy to have visitors. It will offer travelers shelter within its shell-home. Surprisingly, the shell is indeed large enough, a majestic form spiraling upward into a small tower roughly 20 feet in diameter at the base and rising 30 feet high. This shell is usually white with deep blue and red markings.

   This large shell is truly the creature's natural home. The sea hermit is actually a creature of the deep—a powerful being from an underwater kingdom who is studying the surface world. It is also a shapechanger. 

   Its natural form is very similar to that of a giant hermit crab. In this natural state, it is 10 feet wide and almost 40 feet long. Large arms ending in huge pincers extend from its body near the front. Its large, black eyes are on stalks, which can be pulled into armored niches for protection, and its two pairs of large feelers can sense heat, motion, and sound. The creature's body is naturally armored in a dark red shell, and it has six skinny legs that extend out of the secondary shell to help pull it along the sea bottom and actually allow it to swim, dragging the majestic shell along behind it.

   The sea hermit can speak several of the Savage Coast languages. It can also communicate with most intelligent, sea-dwelling creatures.

The Red Curse: Sea hermits never gain Legacies, so they do not require cinnabryl.


Combat: The sea hermit rarely attacks while in humanoid form. Occasionally, if it has lured people into its shell, it might attack while they sleep. Normally it prefers to capture specimens live. While in humanoid form, the sea hermit possesses the natural AC of that form. If attacked, the creature will shapechange back to its natural state during the first round of combat.

   In its crab form, the sea hermit fights with two devastating pincer attacks. If the sea hermit makes a natural attack roll of 19 or 20, the victim must make a successful saving throw vs. death magic or lose a limb (determined randomly). In this form, the creature's Armor Class drops to 0 in the front and 3 for the softer shell at its rear. If the creature is in its majestic shell with only the front poking out, it is always AC 0; the shell is too thick and well armored to break through during the fast-paced action of combat. People trapped within the shell thinking to strike at the softer armor toward the creature's back will find themselves suddenly dealing with several hundred gallons of water as the creature dives under the sea, allowing the seals to break long enough to flood the lower spiral of its shell.

Special Abilities: A sea hermit has a 20% chance of being able to use the spells and skills of its previous prey. If so, the number and levels of any spells do not increase as with other spellcasters. Roll 4d10 for the actual number of spells learned previously, then determine each by rolling 1d8 for the level of spell, and then choose a spell randomly from the list. A sea hermit is considered a 16th-level mage, so 9th-level spells are beyond its capabilities. For skills, roll 2d10 and determine randomly. 

   The sea hermit's big advantage is its shapechanging ability. This ability functions like the 9th-level wizard spell shapechange, except that it is a natural ability. The sea hermit can imitate only intelligent creatures which it has studied.(The few sages who know of the sea hermit and araneas have tried to find a link between their abilities. This has been unsuccessful because the sea hermit's ability is far more advanced, as it can quickly assume the form of any intelligent creature, not just a single humanoid.) It requires one round to change shape, after which the creature possesses full natural, nonmagical abilities.

Habitat/Society: Sea hermits are sages of deep, undersea kingdoms who seek to trap the unwary in order to study their memories. Through arcane processes, these memories are extracted to teach the sea hermits new skills, spells, and other information about the people who dwell on the surface. They have no qualms about the deception they employ or the fatal methods of memory extraction. To them, the situation is no different from collecting and dissecting insects to learn about them. These are simply the methods that are available. 

The creature captures its prey alive when possible, taking it back down to the undersea kingdom where it can better perform its work. This sometimes requires that the sea hermit keep up its guise for hours, lulling its victims into a false sense of security.

A sea hermit will never wander far from its shell-home while in humanoid form for fear of losing it. Finding a new, unoccupied shell requires a long and dangerous undersea quest, with the sea hermit lacking its strongest form of protection. The creature will take any steps necessary to protect its home. This is one of the creature's few weaknesses.

Ecology: The sea hermit usually lives outside the Savage Coast, including its coastal waters. This deep sea creature only comes up to collect samples. Except for those it kidnaps, its actual, overall effect on the land is minimal. Sea hermits do not view themselves or their undersea life as superior or inferior, just different. They exploit those on land for knowledge and skills to provide themselves with greater power back in their own kingdoms.

   The sea hermits hold a special animosity for jorries, some of which can see through their guise. Jorries will often watch a sea hermit and try to warn any potential victims of the creature. A sea hermit will sometimes go out of its way to run off any nearby dens of jorries before setting up its trap.

   Some parts of a sea hermit's natural form can be used in magical preparations that deal with water breathing and shapeshifting. It has even been rumored that a tortle wizard had one of these majestic shells enchanted to act like daern's instant fortress.

Lair: This majestic structure is a squat, conical shell. It is approximately 20 feet across at its base (60 feet in circumference) and spirals upward 30 feet to a final room only 10 feet in diameter. In some areas, the overlapping spirals bend a portion of the ceiling below it, making the overall architecture lack the hard edges and corners that most races are accustomed to. In areas of sharp upward slope, the sea hermit has formed a polished stairway from the shell's glossy mother-of-pearl interior. The effect is quite beautiful.

   The first 40 feet of the shell, as it wraps around the first curve, is where the sea hermit in its natural form fits. When posing as a humanoid, this portion is cluttered with driftwood and minor implements, suggesting a craft workshop or junk storage area. Past this, the shell has been reshaped to form archways, stairs, and rooms, including a laboratory and cells for prisoners. A few secret doors were installed, some ending in traps for over-curious guests; these often involve spring-loaded tridents tipped with the poison of an exotic fish (THAC0 of 13, inflicts 1d10+4d8 points of damage; successful saving throw vs. poison reduces damage to 1d10+2d8 points).


----------



## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

and that was from the Red Steel online MC?


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

Yup.  Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium (TSR 2524), to be precise.


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

ah, ok, those were the same thing?


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

As far as I can tell.


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## BOZ (Nov 12, 2005)

finally got some time at the scanner today...

Sea Hermit

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any coastal
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: Nil (H)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0/3
MOVEMENT: 6, Sw 12
HIT DICE: 10+5
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d8/2d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 15%
SIZE: G (40' long)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 8,000

The legendary sea hermit poses a significant danger to the unwary. When first encountered, this creature appears to he nothing more than a lonely, benevolent person living in a huge shell on a deserted beach. It can appear as a human, demihuman, or humanoid, acting the role of a recluse happy to have visitors, and offering travelers shelter within its shell-home. Surprisingly, the shell is indeed large enough, a majestic form spiraling upward into a small tower roughly 20 feet in diameter at the base and rising 30 feet high. The shell is usually white with deep blue and red markings.

This large shell is the creature's natural home. The sea hermit is actuality a creature of the deep - a powerful being from an underwater kingdom who is studying the surface world.

Its natural form is very similar to that of a giant hermit crab. In this natural state, it is 10 feet wide and almost 40 feet long. Large arms ending in huge pincers extend from its body near the front. Its large, black eyes are on stalks, which can be pulled into armored niches for protection, and its two pairs of large feelers can sense heat, motion, and sound. The creature's body is naturally armored in a dark red carapace, and it has six skinny legs that help pull it along the sea bottom and allow it to swim clumsily, dragging the majestic shell along behind it.

The sea hermit can speak several languages, including the common tongue. It can also communicate with most intelligent sea-dwelling creatures.

Combat: The sea hermit rarely attacks while in humanoid form. Occasionally, if it has lured people into its shell, it might attack while they sleep. Normally it prefers to capture specimens live. While in humanoid form, the sea hermit possesses the natural Armor Class of that form. If attacked, the creature will shapechange back to its natural crab form during the first round of combat.

In its crab form, the sea hermit fights with two devastating pincer attacks, each inflicting 2d8 points of damage, Further, if the sea hermit makes a natural attack roll of 19 or 20, the victim must make a successful saving throw vs. death magic or lose a limb (determined randomly). The creature's horny carapace is Armor Class 0 in the front and AC 3 for the softer shell at its rear. If the creature is in its majestic shell with only its front carapace exposed, it is AC 0; the shell is too thick and well armored to break through during the fast-paced action of combat. People trapped within the shell, thinking to strike at the softer armor toward the creature's back, will often find themselves suddenly dealing with several hundred gallons of water as the creature dives under the sea, allowing the seals to break long enough to flood the lower spiral of its shell.

Special Abilities: A sea hermit has a 20% chance to have the use of spells and skills of its previous prey. If so, the number and levels of any spells do not increase as with other spellcasters. Roll 4d10 for the actual number of spells learned previously, then determine each by first rolling 1d8 for the spell level of spell, then choosing a spell randomly from the list. A sea hermit is considered a 16th-level mage; 9th-level spells are beyond its capabilities. For skills, roll 2d10 for the number available and determine the exact skill randomly. Alternately, the DM can assign skills, including racial and class abilities according to the humanoid forms adopted by the sea hermit.

The sea hermit's big advantage is its shapechanging ability. This ability functions like the 9th-level wizard spell shapechange, except that it is a natural ability. The sea hermit can imitate only intelligent creatures that it has studied. It requires one round to change shape, after which the sea hermit possesses full the natural, nonmagical abilities of the form assumed.

Habitat/Society: Sea hermits are sages of deep, undersea kingdoms who seek to trap the unwary in order to study their memories. Through arcane processes, these memories are extracted to teach the sea hermit new skills, spells, and reveal other information about the people who dwell on the surface. Sea hermits have no qualms about the deception they employ or the fatal methods of memory extraction. To them, the situation is no different from collecting and dissecting insects to learn about them. These are simply the methods that are available.

The sea hermit captures its specimens alive when possible, taking them back down to the undersea kingdom where it can better perform its work. This sometimes requires that the
hermit keep up its guise for hours, lulling its victims into a false sense of security. Sea hermits do not view themselves or their undersea life as superior or inferior, just different. They exploit those on land for knowledge and skills to provide themselves with greater power in their own undersea kingdoms.

Ecology: The sea hermit is a deep sea creature. Its true lair is far from coastal waters; it only comes to shore to collect samples. A sea hermit never wanders far from its shell-home while in humanoid form for fear of losing it. Finding a new, unoccupied shell requires a long and dangerous undersea quest, with the sea hermit lacking its strongest form of protection. The creature takes any steps necessary to protect its home, and this is one of the creature's few weaknesses. 

Some parts of a sea hermit's natural form can be used in magical preparations that deal with water breathing and shapeshifting. A rumor persists that a wizard has one of these great shells enchanted to act like Daern's instant fortress.

Lair: This majestic structure is it squat, conical shell. It is approximately 20 feet across at its base (60 feet in circumference) and spirals upward 30 feet to a final room only 10 feet in diameter. In some areas, the overlapping spirals bend some of the ceilings, making the overall architecture lack the hard edges and corners to which most races are accustomed. In areas of sharp upward slope, the sea hermit has formed a polished stairway from the shell's glossy mother-of-pearl interior. The effect is quite beautiful.

	The first 40 feet of the shell, as it wraps around the first curve, is where the sea hermit in its natural form fits. When posing as a humanoid, this portion is cluttered with driftwood and minor implements, suggesting a craft workshop or junk storage area. Past this, the shell has been reshaped to form archways, stairs, and rooms, including a laboratory and cells for prisoners. A few secret door, may tie installed, perhaps some ending in traps for overcurious guests; those often involve spring-loaded tridents tipped with the poison of an exotic fish (THAC0 11, inflicting 1d10+4d8 points of damage; a successful saving throw vs. poison reduces damage to 1d10+2d8 points). 

Savage Coast Lore
The sea hermits hold a special animosity for jorries, a mischievous otter-like mammal, some of which can see through their guise. Jorries will often watch a sea hermit and try to warn any potential victims of the creature. A sea hermit will sometimes out of its way to run off any nearby dens of jorries before setting tip its trap.

The few sages who know of the sea hermit and araneas have tried to find a link between their abilities. This has been unsuccessful; the sea hermit's ability is far more advanced, as it can quickly assume the form of any intelligent creature, not just a single humanoid.

-From RED STEEL MC Online, #2524


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## BOZ (Nov 12, 2005)

some preliminary stats for the sea hermit:

*Sea Hermit*
Gargantuan (Magical Beast?) (Aquatic, maybe Shapechanger?)
Hit Dice: 10dX+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), swim 30 ft
Armor Class: 20 (-4 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+X
Attack: Pincer +X melee (2d8+X)
Full Attack: 2 pincers +X melee (2d8+X)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: spells
Special Qualities: alternate form/change shape, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 18, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 78 Swim +X
Feats: 4

Environment: (Any aquatic?)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Gargantuan); 21-30 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: ---

A sea hermit can speak Aquan, Common...

A sea hermit is 10 feet wide and almost 40 feet long without its shell, and weighs X pounds.


COMBAT


Originally found in Red Steel Monstrous Compendium Online (X) and MCA 4


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2005)

So...it looks like the Red Steel Monstrous Compendium Online and Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium are indeed the same, as they have the same ID # (2524).    

I like Magical Beast (Aquatic, Shapechanger).

Ability scores of comparable creatures:
Monstrous Crab, Gargantuan:  Str 33, Dex 11, Con 14, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
Siege Crab: Str 30, Dex 6, Con 21, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 2

Both have constrict, improved grab, amphibious; Monstrous Crab also has scent.

A siege crab is almost 20 feet in diameter, stands 15 feet tall, and weighs over 30 tons.   No height/weigh is given for Monstrous Crab.


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## BOZ (Nov 13, 2005)

forgot this, BTW


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## BOZ (Nov 13, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> So...it looks like the Red Steel Monstrous Compendium Online and Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium are indeed the same, as they have the same ID # (2524).




good to know.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Ability scores of comparable creatures:
> Monstrous Crab, Gargantuan:  Str 33, Dex 11, Con 14, Int ?, Wis 11, Cha 2
> Siege Crab: Str 30, Dex 6, Con 21, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 2




toss out the mental stats entirely, since our boy is tres smart.    the other stats are debatable.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Both have constrict, improved grab, amphibious; Monstrous Crab also has scent.
> 
> A siege crab is almost 20 feet in diameter, stands 15 feet tall, and weighs over 30 tons.   No height/weigh is given for Monstrous Crab.




is the siege crab Gargantuan?  i definitely agree on Amphibious.  scent, i am ambivalent.  improved grab/constrict is not mentioned in the source text, but i don't have a problem with adding them if you want.  we can worry about the weight later, but i'm sure it is in the tons.  

i think we should write up the shell as a separate item since it is not a part of the hermit's body (see my previous post).


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 14, 2005)

I'm sorry I'm late to the party; I was out for the weekend.  Some comments:

Treasure: Why None? The Red Steel Monstrous Compendium gave it treasure type H.  This is the same treasure type dragons used to get, so I'd give it double standard.

Spells: I think the easiest way to handle its spell ability is to just give the the spellcasting ability of a 16th level sorceror, in which case it should have a minimum Charisma of 18.

You forgot about its claws.  Here's an early start:
Claws of Sharpness (Ex): On a successful critical hit with a claw attack, the sea hermit will sever a random limb.  A successful Reflex saving throw (DC 10+damage inflicted) negates the severing effect. 
3e needs more limb severing effects; otherwise what's the point of regenerate?

Alternate Form (Su): As a (free? standard?) action, a sea hermit can assume the form of any living creature it has studied.  This works like a shapechange spell cast by a 16th level sorceror.

It should probably have the amphibious special quality.

As you can see, I've been mulling this guy in my head for a while.  Did anyone else notice this is the second crablike creature we've converted in as many months?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> toss out the mental stats entirely, since our boy is tres smart.    the other stats are debatable.




Absolutely.  I just included as part of cut n' paste simplicity.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> is the siege crab Gargantuan?  i definitely agree on Amphibious.  scent, i am ambivalent.  improved grab/constrict is not mentioned in the source text, but i don't have a problem with adding them if you want.  we can worry about the weight later, but i'm sure it is in the tons.




Yes, its Gargantuan.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i think we should write up the shell as a separate item since it is not a part of the hermit's body (see my previous post).




Sounds good.



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Treasure: Why None? The Red Steel Monstrous Compendium gave it treasure type H.  This is the same treasure type dragons used to get, so I'd give it double standard.




Good call.



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Spells: I think the easiest way to handle its spell ability is to just give the the spellcasting ability of a 16th level sorceror, in which case it should have a minimum Charisma of 18.




Agreed.



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> You forgot about its claws.  Here's an early start:
> Claws of Sharpness (Ex): On a successful critical hit with a claw attack, the sea hermit will sever a random limb.  A successful Reflex saving throw (DC 10+damage inflicted) negates the severing effect.
> 3e needs more limb severing effects; otherwise what's the point of regenerate?




While I agree with you on the need and am a huge fan of the sharpness quality, I think we should stick with the WOTC precedent and go with augmented critical and/or vorpal claws.  See what they did to the iron tusker when they made it the razor boar in MM2.



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> As you can see, I've been mulling this guy in my head for a while.  Did anyone else notice this is the second crablike creature we've converted in as many months?




I hadn't noticed, and I've already forgotten...what was the other one?


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 14, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Absolutely.  I just included as part of cut n' paste simplicity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The necroton.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> The necroton.




LOL!  how quickly we forget.  

and my bad on the treasure.  i was looking at the MCA4 line, which had the H in parenthesis.  probably, on reflection, this was a note that the sea hermit keeps its treasure in its shell, not on its person.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Wow...that was some quick forgettin'.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

so, what were we thinking about its ability scores?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Str 30-33, Dex 6-11, Con 14-21, Int 18, Wis 17-19, Cha 18-19.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

Abilities: Str 32, Dex 9, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 18 ?

i expect the physical stats will change when in humanoid form.

"It can appear as a human, tortle, lupin, etc., acting the role of a recluse happy to have visitors."

"While in humanoid form, the sea hermit possesses the natural AC of that form. If attacked, the creature will shapechange back to its natural state during the first round of combat."

"The sea hermit's big advantage is its shapechanging ability. This ability functions like the 9th-level wizard spell shapechange, except that it is a natural ability. The sea hermit can imitate only intelligent creatures which it has studied.(The few sages who know of the sea hermit and araneas have tried to find a link between their abilities. This has been unsuccessful because the sea hermit's ability is far more advanced, as it can quickly assume the form of any intelligent creature, not just a single humanoid.) It requires one round to change shape, after which the creature possesses full natural, nonmagical abilities."

MCA4:
"The sea hermit's big advantage is its shapechanging ability. This ability functions like the 9th-level wizard spell shapechange, except that it is a natural ability. The sea hermit can imitate only intelligent creatures that it has studied. It requires one round to change shape, after which the sea hermit possesses full the natural, nonmagical abilities of the form assumed."


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

The scores look good to me.

The ability sounds like change shape.  Here's how the doppelganger's looks...

Change Shape (Su): A doppelganger can assume the shape of any Small or Medium humanoid. In humanoid form, the doppelganger loses its natural attacks. A doppelganger can remain in its humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.

Do we want to limit it to humanoids, or expand it out to include other creatures?


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

it seems to be just humanoids and maybe monstrous humanoids (tortle and lupin?).  i wouldn't put any size restrictions on it; after all, it is coming down from Gargantuan in the first place.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Like so?

Change Shape (Su): A sea hermit can assume the shape of any humanoid or monstrous humanoid. In humanoid or monstrous humanoid form, the sea hermit loses its natural attacks. A sea hermit can remain in its humanoid or monstrous humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a sea hermit reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

given that the original text states that its AC changes to match the new form, and that i feel its ability scores should change, i'm wondering if Alternate Form might not be the better choice.


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 14, 2005)

The description says "any intelligent creature", not any humanoid.  It says that the sea hermit's shapechanging ability is far more advanced than that of an aranea, which can only take humanoid form.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

I don't think alternate form would work (emphasis mine):

Alternate Form (Su): A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume *one or more specific alternate forms*. This ability works much like the polymorph spell, except that the creature is limited to the forms specified, and does not regain any hit points for changing its form. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature.

However, we could use the third option from the aranea, modified as necessary to account for the information GrayLinnorm posted:

Change Form (Su): An aranea's natural form is that of a Medium monstrous spider. It can assume two other forms. The first is a unique Small or Medium humanoid; an aranea in its humanoid form always assumes the same appearance and traits much as a lycanthrope would. In humanoid form, an aranea cannot use its bite attack, webs, or poison.

The second form is a Medium spider-humanoid hybrid. In hybrid form, an aranea looks like a Medium humanoid at first glance, but a DC 18 Spot check reveals the creature's fangs and spinnerets. The aranea retains its bite attack, webs, and poison in this form, and can also wield weapons or wear armor. When in hybrid form, an aranea's speed is 30 feet (6 squares).

An aranea remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does an aranea revert to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell, however, reveals its natural form if it is in humanoid or hybrid form.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

"The few sages who know of the sea hermit and araneas have tried to find a link between their abilities. This has been unsuccessful because the sea hermit's ability is far more advanced, as it can quickly assume the form of any intelligent creature, not just a single humanoid."

quite right!  this also supports my previous post further.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

That's still sounding like change shape to me, albeit with the ability score caveat.  Perhaps it is time for a whole new ability?


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

check out the MM glossary.  alternate form and change shape are spelled out in detail; the change in natural armor and ability scores is one of the few differences between the two.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Maybe I'm getting overly caught up on the "one or more specific alternate forms" part of the alternate form description.  I dunno.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

Change Shape also says "specific creature or type of creature".  what creatures do we have out there that can change into basically anything?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

I found one...

Alternate Form (Su): A phasm can assume any form of Large size or smaller as a standard action. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself (caster level 15th), except that the phasm does not regain hit points for changing form. A phasm can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.

...and I hereby concede any argument against using alternate form in this manner.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

good deal.

now, back to the limb severing issue.  i would love to keep that, except that as you point out there is no limb severing mechanic in 3.5...   i don't know that i would want to go with vorpal to replace that though.

definitely, we need improved critical at least, and possibly augmented criticals.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Augmented Critical (Ex): The sea hermit's claws threaten a critical hit on a natural attack roll of X–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

good enough for me.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2005)

Spells: A sea hermit casts spells as a 16th-level sorcerer.

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (6/7/7/7/7/6/6/5/3; save DC 14 + spell level): 0—9; 1st—5; 2nd—5; 3rd—4; 4th—4; 5th—4; 6th—3; 7th—2; 8th—1.


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2005)

except that i think the "spells known" list should be negotiable.

"A sea hermit has a 20% chance of being able to use the spells and skills of its previous prey. If so, the number and levels of any spells do not increase as with other spellcasters. Roll 4d10 for the actual number of spells learned previously, then determine each by rolling 1d8 for the level of spell, and then choose a spell randomly from the list."

it could know 2 1st level spells, 5 3rd, 7 4th, 1 6th, and 14 8th level spells, perhaps.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2005)

That could be cool, but we'll need a separate ability for learning spells.  Maybe this would work easier for the poor DM?

Spell Memory (Su):  A sea hermit does not possess a typical spells known list like most sorcerers.  Instead, it can attempt to use a spell possessed by its previous victims.  It may attempt to cast any spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (up to the maximum level it can cast).  To do so, it must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC equals 15 + spell level).  Failure indicates that it cannot remember that spell.  If successful, it may cast the spell as if it were on its spells known list.


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2005)

that's got some promise...


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## Mortis (Nov 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Spell Memory (Su):  A sea hermit does not possess a typical spells known list like most sorcerers.  Instead, it can attempt to use a spell possessed by its previous victims.  It may attempt to cast any spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (up to the maximum level it can cast).  To do so, it must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC equals 15 + spell level).  Failure indicates that it cannot remember that spell.  If successful, it may cast the spell as if it were on its spells known list.




I like this, but why are we limited to the sorcerer/wizard spell list? We could give it access to any spell possessed by previous victims, so bard spells, cleric spells...  

Even actually especially spontaneous casters must have all the spells they know somewhere in mind!

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2005)

So more like this?

Spell Memory (Su): A sea hermit does not possess a typical spells known list like most sorcerers. Instead, it can attempt to use a spell possessed by its previous victims. It may attempt to cast any spell from any spell list (up to the maximum level it can cast). To do so, it must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC equals 15 + spell level). Failure indicates that it cannot remember that spell. If successful, it may cast the spell as if it were on its spells known list.  All spells cast in this manner are treated as arcane spells.


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## Mortis (Nov 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> So more like this?
> 
> Spell Memory (Su): A sea hermit does not possess a typical spells known list like most sorcerers. Instead, it can attempt to use a spell possessed by its previous victims. It may attempt to cast any spell from any spell list (up to the maximum level it can cast). To do so, it must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC equals 15 + spell level). Failure indicates that it cannot remember that spell. If successful, it may cast the spell as if it were on its spells known list.  All spells cast in this manner are treated as arcane spells.




That's more like it! 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

shouldn't there be a caveat in there about having access only to spells that its victims knew?   or are we just leaving it up to the DM to say, "yeah, i guess he killed something with whatever spell it is i want to use right now" every time it casts a spell?


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## Mortis (Nov 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> shouldn't there be a caveat in there about having access only to spells that its victims knew?   or are we just leaving it up to the DM to say, "yeah, i guess he killed something with whatever spell it is i want to use right now" every time it casts a spell?



There probably should. You either have a spellbook/spells known approach or give the sea hermit a percentage chance of knowing any one spell (perhaps 100% for any 0 level spell and dropping 10% per spell level, so 90% for level 1 spells, 80% for level 2 spells etc.)

[edit] Actually I've just read Shade's write-up of the ability and it covers your concern. Yes the DM can want the sea hermit to have a certain spell but it still needs to make the spellcraft roll to remember it.

On a related note, does the sea hermit require all the normal components for each spell?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

I figured it would be best to leave it up to the DM, as in most cases we wouldn't know anything about its previous victims.  

As for the components, we could give it Eschew Material Components as one of its feats.  It shouldn't have any problem with verbal and somatic, right?


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

i only meant sticking something like "spells that it has stolen from another creature" in there and leaving it at that, for the DM to determine.  naturally, unless the DM went and decided what victims the hermit has had previously and what spells those victims had, it should work essentially the way shade posted above.  if, however, the DM has decided that maybe it only had one or two victims before, and those were both mages, he would have to restrict it to the wizard list.  

is Eschew in a core book?  if not, we could always just toss the text from the feat into one of its abilities.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

I see where you're coming from now...either way is fine with me.

Eschew is <thankfully> core in 3.5.


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 17, 2005)

Most monsters that cast spells don't use material components.  Why would the sea hermit be any different?


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

They don't?  Where's it say that?



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 17, 2005)

Sorry, I didn't see that part, and I just noticed that nagas have Eschew Material Component.  Feel free to ignore my comments.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

No problem.  I was afraid I'd missed something, that's all.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

There's a difference between creatures that have spell-like abilities (which is most magic-using monsters), and those that actually cast spells (which is just a few of them).


I think I figured out the problem I was having.  Really, before any encounter, the DM should have prepared what spells are available to this guy - the brilliant thing about this creature is that there is no real limit to how many spells of a given level it can know.  However, I think this list of spells known should be picked out before a combat, both for ease of reference for the DM, and just to be more "fair and legal" to the players.  I think the suggested random rolls from the original text were an easy way to set up such a list for the DM.

Really, we don't need a mechanic to determine what spells it can "try to remember" during a combat.  If it remembers the spell once, it always will, and can always use it if it has the daily spell slots left to do so.  So those spells on the known list are static, and what we really need is a mechanic to add more.  What Shade has should be very well adaptable to this idea.  Not sure that it needs to be a separate power either; this should work equally well as a paragraph under Spells.

" Sea hermits are sages of deep, undersea kingdoms who seek to trap the unwary in order to study their memories. Through arcane processes, these memories are extracted to teach the sea hermit new skills, spells, and reveal other information about the people who dwell on the surface. Sea hermits have no qualms about the deception they employ or the fatal methods of memory extraction."

Spell Memory (Su): A sea hermit does not possess a typical list of spells known like most sorcerers, nor does it gain new known spells automatically. A sea hermit learns new spells by taking them from the minds of its victims.  A sea hermit learns a new spell from any spell list possessed by a victim (up to the maximum level it can cast) by making a successful Spellcraft check (DC equals 15 + spell level). Failure indicates that it cannot remember that spell. If successful, the sea hermit adds the spell to its list of spells known. All spells cast in this manner are treated as arcane spells.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2005)

If you want to go this route, I'd suggest we give it a sample spells known list assuming at least combining sor/wiz, cleric, and maybe even a ranger or druid spell or two to show its potential.  We could then say, "DMs should modify this list as they see fit" or somesuch.


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2005)

First of all, do you like this change?  Does it make sense to do it this way instead, according to my explanation?

And yes, I agree that no matter how we handle it, it should have an example spell list.    culled, most likely from the sort of people you could imagine walking along the beach and either helping out a drifter or just hanging out with him.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2005)

The change does make sense.  The way I had it was more of a "may attempt to cast any spell on any spell list at any time", which is probably better suited for some epic magic-master monster.


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2005)

OK, so I'm going to fold that into his Spells description to avoid confusion (unless that would do the opposite).  How does this look?  The numbers of known spells can be ignored; let's brainstorm for likely spells.  I'd say don't exceed 10 spells for any level, just to keep the list manageable.    the original text said they would have 4d10 spells; since a normal 16th-level sorcerer would have 41 spells known anyway, let's not give it more than that (again, to keep the list from being mammoth, not to say that a sea hermit could not have 100 spells in its repertoire!

Spells: A sea hermit casts spells as a 16th-level sorcerer.  A sea hermit does not possess a typical list of spells known like most sorcerers, nor does it gain new known spells automatically. A sea hermit learns new spells by taking them from the minds of its victims.  A sea hermit learns a new spell from any spell list possessed by a victim (up to the maximum level it can cast) by making a successful Spellcraft check (DC equals 15 + spell level). Failure indicates that it cannot remember that spell. If successful, the sea hermit adds the spell to its list of spells known. All spells cast in this manner are treated as arcane spells.

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (6/7/7/7/7/6/6/5/3; save DC 14 + spell level): 
0—9; 
1st—5; 
2nd—5; 
3rd—4; 
4th—4; 
5th—4; 
6th—3; 
7th—2; 
8th—1.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

Here's a start:

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (6/7/7/7/7/6/6/5/3; save DC 14 + spell level): 
0—create water, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, ghost sound, guidance, inflict minor wounds, lullaby, mage hand, resistance, virtue; 
1st—bane, cure light wounds, endure elements, entangle, longstrider, mage armor, magic missle, obscuring mist, shield; 
2nd—bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, eagle's splendor, fog cloud, gust of wind, mirror image, misdirection, shatter, undetectable alignment, warp wood, whispering wind; 
3rd—cure serious wounds, diminish plants, dispel magic, fly, glibness, haste, lightning bolt, protection from energy, plant growth, slow, water breathing, water walk, wind wall; 
4th—black tentacles, divine power, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, ice storm, rusting grasp, scrying, wall of ice; 
5th—cloudkill, cone of cold, flame strike, hold monster, mirage arcana, song of discord, spell resistance, transmute rock to mud; 
6th—blade barrier, call lightning storm, freezing sphere, heal, greater dispel magic, greater shout (as bard), ironwood, true seeing; 
7th—animate plants, control weather, destruction, forcecage, greater teleport, prismatic spray, waves of exhaustion;
8th—control plants, horrid wilting, polar ray, unholy aura.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

id scale that down a bit, maybe to half.  some older/more successful sea hermits will have as many as you list or more, while some younger/less successful sea hermits will have a dozen spells or fewer.  i'd prefer a middle of the road example.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

Agreed. I figured I'd throw a bunch out there and let the rest of the fellows whittle it down.    

I pulled from the bard, druid, cleric, and sor/wiz list for variety.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

oh right, no problem.  i'll take a look at that when i have the chance.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

Just started hacking and slashing... removed spells that I wasn't sure how useful it would find, then I just picked and chose more or less at random.  

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (6/7/7/7/7/6/6/5/3; save DC 14 + spell level): 
0—dancing lights, daze, detect magic, ghost sound, guidance, inflict minor wounds, lullaby, mage hand, resistance, virtue; 
1st—bane, endure elements, entangle, longstrider, mage armor, magic missile, obscuring mist, shield; 
2nd—bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, eagle's splendor, fog cloud, gust of wind, mirror image, misdirection, shatter, undetectable alignment, warp wood, whispering wind; 
3rd—cure serious wounds, diminish plants, dispel magic, fly, glibness, haste, lightning bolt, protection from energy, plant growth, slow, water walk, wind wall; 
4th—divine power, greater invisibility, ice storm, rusting grasp, scrying, wall of ice; 
5th—cloudkill, cone of cold, flame strike, hold monster, mirage arcana, song of discord, spell resistance, transmute rock to mud; 
6th—blade barrier, call lightning storm, freezing sphere, heal, greater dispel magic, greater shout (as bard), ironwood, true seeing; 
7th—animate plants, control weather, destruction, forcecage, greater teleport, prismatic spray, waves of exhaustion;
8th—control plants, horrid wilting, polar ray, unholy aura.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

It still looks like a good mix of various victims.    

Did you want to whittle it more, or are you satisfied?


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

i am satisfied with that list, and if you are too then i will use it.  


some bits i rediscovered while working on the flavor text...

"its two pairs of large feelers can sense heat, motion, and sound." 

"A sea hermit has a 20% chance to have the use of spells and skills of its previous prey... For skills, roll 2d10 for the number available and determine the exact skill randomly. Alternately, the DM can assign skills, including racial and class abilities according to the humanoid forms adopted by the sea hermit."


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i am satisfied with that list, and if you are too then i will use it.




I am satisfied.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "its two pairs of large feelers can sense heat, motion, and sound."




Tremorsense and/or blindsight/blindsense?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "A sea hermit has a 20% chance to have the use of spells and skills of its previous prey... For skills, roll 2d10 for the number available and determine the exact skill randomly. Alternately, the DM can assign skills, including racial and class abilities according to the humanoid forms adopted by the sea hermit."




This might help (or might not):

Acquire Skills (Ex):
At 1st level, an illithid savant can acquire one skill known by a creature whose brain he has consumed, chosen at the time of consumption. He permanently gains all of the creatures ranks in that skill (but not racial or ability score bonuses to the skill modifier) even if his new total is more ranks than the illithid savant's current character level would normally allow. This skill becomes a class skill for the illithid savant, and he may buy more ranks in the skill if the new ranks do not cause him to exceed the maximum ranks in the skill.

At 4th, 6th, and 8th level, the illithid savant can acquire and use one additional skill from a brain.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Tremorsense and/or blindsight/blindsense?




tremorsense yes, and the weaker of the other two, since it's got enough good stuff already with tremorsense.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> This might help (or might not):
> 
> Acquire Skills (Ex):
> At 1st level, an illithid savant can acquire one skill known by a creature whose brain he has consumed, chosen at the time of consumption. He permanently gains all of the creatures ranks in that skill (but not racial or ability score bonuses to the skill modifier) even if his new total is more ranks than the illithid savant's current character level would normally allow. This skill becomes a class skill for the illithid savant, and he may buy more ranks in the skill if the new ranks do not cause him to exceed the maximum ranks in the skill.
> ...




didn't we already adapt this for the Eater of Knowledge?


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

Blindsense, and yes.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

60 feet on both senses?


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

That works for me.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

here is what we had.  how much of this do you want to keep, and should we do something about stealing class features as well?

Acquire Feats (Ex): An eater of knowledge permanently acquires two of the feats of a consumed creature as bonus feats, provided it meets the feats' prerequisites.

Acquire Skills (Ex): An eater of knowledge can acquire one skill known by a creature whose brain it has consumed, chosen at the time of consumption. It permanently gains all of the creature’s ranks in that skill (but not racial or ability score bonuses to the skill modifier) even if its new total is more ranks than the eater's Hit Dice would normally allow. This skill becomes a class skill for the eater of knowledge, and it may buy more ranks in the skill if the new ranks do not cause it to exceed the maximum ranks in the skill.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

I'd rather limit it to just skills and spells.  The spellcasting theft is already a quite impressive ability.  If we do allow feats, I'd limit it to metamagic and spell-related feats.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

OK, just keeping the skills part.  let me tone it down a bit, too:

Acquire Skills (Ex): A sea hermit can acquire one skill known by a creature. It permanently gains all of the creature’s ranks in that skill (but not racial or ability score bonuses to the skill modifier) though it cannot exceed the maximum ranks that the sea hermit's Hit Dice would normally allow. This skill becomes a class skill for the sea hermit, and it may buy more ranks in the skill if the new ranks do not cause it to exceed the maximum ranks in the skill.

for this and the gaining of spells, we should add a caveat that the creature can be recently dead (how recent?), and how long it should take (1 hour, 1 day?) to probe the mind.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

Cool.  How about 1 week dead and 8 hours of study?


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

8 hours to gain one skill or one spell?  that does make sense with the flavor text too.    (why it needs to drag a person to the depths to extract its info rather than just doing it on the surface - it is not likely to be disturbed underwater).  

how about since it prefers to take its victims alive, if we give it an incentive for doing so.  how about a shorter duration to steal from living creatures?  (we could make dead creatures take 8 hours and living ones 4 hours, or dead take 16 and living take 8, or whatever makes sense).

and should we force it to make a check to learn a skill, as it does with spells?


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2005)

Yeah, I like that idea.   How about 8 hours for a living creature, and 1 day for dead (same as copying a spell from another caster's spellbook)?   And I think it should have the usual limits on strenuous activity like crafting items, etc.

What would be the appropriate check and DC to learn a skill?  Intelligence seems likely, and the DC would probably be static.  Or...opposed Int checks if creature is living?


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## Mortis (Nov 22, 2005)

Just a thought...

When it acquires a skill/spell from a living being, does (or perhaps should) that being lose the skill/spell?

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 22, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, I like that idea.   How about 8 hours for a living creature, and 1 day for dead (same as copying a spell from another caster's spellbook)?   And I think it should have the usual limits on strenuous activity like crafting items, etc.
> 
> What would be the appropriate check and DC to learn a skill?  Intelligence seems likely, and the DC would probably be static.  Or...opposed Int checks if creature is living?




maybe a Will save instead of opposed Int checks, maybe a penalty for dead creatures (or not).  how shall we state the usual limits on strenuous activity and such?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Just a thought...
> 
> When it acquires a skill/spell from a living being, does (or perhaps should) that being lose the skill/spell?




i don't know about that - i mean, the victim is usually dead (or will be killed), so that may not matter much.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2005)

While acquiring a skill, the sea hermit must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time needed to acquire a skill.

So, a Will save for the victim to resist?   We could also use an Intimidate check to extract the information.


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## BOZ (Nov 22, 2005)

not sure how - it's not like the hermit is forcing the victim to tell him what he knows; this stuff is coming straight from one mind to another.  kind of like how you learn skills in the Matrix movies.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2005)

Let's just make it automatic, then.  Learning a skill is generally easier than a spell, anyway.  I mean, all you need for skills is a skill point, whereas a spell requires a specific caster level, ability score, etc.


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## BOZ (Nov 22, 2005)

here is what i have on that currently:

Acquire Skills (Ex): A sea hermit can acquire skills known by a creature it has studied. A victim must be alive, or dead for no more than 1 week for a sea hermit to be able to extract what it needs.  For every 8 hours spent studying a victim (or 24 hours for a dead victim), a sea hermit permanently gains all of the creature's ranks in a single skill (but not racial or ability score bonuses to the skill modifier) though it cannot exceed the maximum ranks that the sea hermit's Hit Dice would normally allow. This skill becomes a class skill for the sea hermit, and it may buy more ranks in the skill if the new ranks do not cause it to exceed the maximum ranks in the skill. While acquiring a skill, the sea hermit must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time needed to acquire a skill.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2005)

I like it.


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## BOZ (Nov 22, 2005)

OK, i think we need to come up with a sort of "non-magical item" type description for the shell.  after all, if the sea hermit is killed, it makes an excellent (if not exactly portable) shelter.  here are some bits we can use to write that up:


Surprisingly, the shell is indeed large enough, a majestic form spiraling upward into a small tower roughly 20 feet in diameter at the base and rising 30 feet high. The shell is usually white with deep blue and red markings.

"the shell is too thick and well armored to break through during the fast-paced action of combat." 

"A rumor persists that a wizard has one of these great shells enchanted to act like Daern's instant fortress."

"This majestic structure is it squat, conical shell. It is approximately 20 feet across at its base (60 feet in circumference) and spirals upward 30 feet to a final room only 10 feet in diameter. In some areas, the overlapping spirals bend some of the ceilings, making the overall architecture lack the hard edges and corners to which most races are accustomed. In areas of sharp upward slope, the sea hermit has formed a polished stairway from the shell's glossy mother-of-pearl interior. The effect is quite beautiful.

	The first 40 feet of the shell, as it wraps around the first curve, is where the sea hermit in its natural form fits. When posing as a humanoid, this portion is cluttered with driftwood and minor implements, suggesting a craft workshop or junk storage area. Past this, the shell has been reshaped to form archways, stairs, and rooms, including a laboratory and cells for prisoners. A few secret door, may tie installed, perhaps some ending in traps for overcurious guests; those often involve spring-loaded tridents tipped with the poison of an exotic fish (THAC0 11, inflicting 1d10+4d8 points of damage; a successful saving throw vs. poison reduces damage to 1d10+2d8 points)."


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Hmmm...couldn't we just make it a section called "Sea Hermit Lair" and just leave it as mostly flavor text?  It seems just a tad too big to really write it up as an item.  I suppose it most closely resembles a ship if it were an actual item.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

well, it is unique.  sure, it could be mostly flavor text, but it has a few uses that we wouldn't want to dismiss out of hand.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 23, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...couldn't we just make it a section called "Sea Hermit Lair" and just leave it as mostly flavor text?  It seems just a tad too big to really write it up as an item.  I suppose it most closely resembles a ship if it were an actual item.



I'm with Shade on this, leave it as flavor text. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A few secret door, may *tie* installed,



Scan corpse?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

yep.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 23, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't know about that - i mean, the victim is usually dead (or will be killed), so that may not matter much.



Unless the victim is a PC. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

We should at least assign it harndess and hit points.

Here are other walls:

Material/Hardness/HP
Masonry 8 90 hp 
Superior masonry 8 90 hp 
Reinforced masonry 8 180 hp 
Hewn stone 8 540 hp 
Unworked stone 8 900 hp 
Iron 10 90 hp 
Paper - 1 hp 
Wood 6 in. 5 60 hp 

So maybe hardness 6 75 hp?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

shade,

is that per inch of thickness or whatnot?  because i'm sure the shell is going to be thick.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Unless the victim is a PC.




yeah, but if the PC has gotten himself in that situation (where he's going to be incapacitated for hours, or even days), he's going to be stripped of his knowledge and then killed.  

i wouldn't worry about it - i leave that one to DM call.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

It is for the "default" thickness.  1 foot for masonry, 3 inches for iron, 6 inches for wood, etc.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

"the shell is too thick and well armored to break through during the fast-paced action of combat." 

too thick - tiny shells you find on the beach are rather thin.  however, just imagine a shell 200 times bigger than that, and 200 times thicker?


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Wanna go with a foot or more, then?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

sure.  at that thickness, it's probably going to be like stone.  it needs that thickness at least at the bottom to support its own weight anyway.

how do crustaceans get shells like that anyway, do their bodies make it?


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

From Wikipedia:

"The shell is usually made of nacre, an organic mixture of outer layers of horny conchiolin (a scleroprotein), followed by an intermediate layer of calcite or aragonite, and then a layer of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) in the form of platy crystals.

Nacre is secreted by the ectodermic cells of the mantle tissue of certain species of mollusk. Mollusk blood is rich in a liquid form of calcium. In these mollusks the calcium is concentrated out from the blood where it can crystallize as calcium carbonate. The individual crystals of each layer differ in shape and orientation. Nacre is continually deposited onto the inner surface of the animal's shell (the iridescent nacreous layer, also known as mother of pearl), both as a means to smoothen the shell itself and as a defense against parasitic organisms and damaging detritus.

Seashell on a beachWhen a mollusk is invaded by a parasite or is irritated by a foreign object that the animal cannot eject, a process known as encystation entombs the offending entity in successive, concentric layers of nacre. This process eventually forms what we call pearls and continues for as long as the mollusk lives.

Shells are very durable and outlast the otherwise soft-bodied animals that produce them by a very long time. Large amounts of shells may form sediment and become compressed into limestone. Shells that wash up on beaches are called seashells, and are collected by some enthusiasts."


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

i was curious.    i don't know whether the hermit makes its own shell or not, but i suspect that it does.  how bout this:

SEA HERMIT LAIR
A sea hermit's home is its gigantic, majestic shell.  This squat, conical structure is roughly 20 feet in diameter at its base (60 feet in circumference), and rises up in a spiral 30 feet high.  The exterior of the shell is usually white with deep blue and red markings.  The shell is one foot thick, with a hardness of 6? and 75 hp per foot of thickness.

The interior is no less impressive.  The first 40 feet of the shell, as it wraps around the first curve, is where the sea hermit in its natural form fits.  Past this, the shell has been reshaped to form archways, stairs, and rooms, including a laboratory and cells for prisoners.  A few secret doors may be installed, perhaps some ending in traps for overcurious guests; those often involve spring-loaded tridents tipped with the poison of an exotic fish. In some areas, the overlapping spirals bend some of the ceilings, making the overall architecture lack the hard edges and corners to which most races are accustomed. In areas of sharp upward slope, the sea hermit has formed a polished stairway from the shell's glossy mother-of-pearl interior. The effect is quite beautiful.

When posing as a humanoid, a sea hermit will decorate the lower portion of its shell to add to the camouflage.  It clutters the area with driftwoods and minor implements, to suggest a craft workshop or junk storage area and avoid suspicion.

If a sea hermit is killed, its shell can make an excellent shelter and even a small base of operations.  One persistent rumor even suggests that a wizard has transformed one of these great shells into something like a _Daern's instant fortress_.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

I like it.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

OK, about time i posted it to homebrews.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Let's go 18-20 on the augmented critical.

Suggested Feats:  Empower Spell, Eschew Material Components, Maximize Spell, Weapon Focus (pincer)

Suggested Skills:  Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Spellcraft, Spot

Skills: A sea hermit has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

updating.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Any aquatic sounds good.

Add threat range and crit multiplier to attack lines.

30 tons like the siege crab?

CR 12?

Spell resistance 23?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

updating!


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

A sea hermit can speak Aquan, Common... ("The sea hermit can speak several languages, including the common tongue. It can also communicate with most intelligent sea-dwelling creatures.")

Aquan and Common should cover it.  It can always steal languages via the Speak Languages skill, too.

"Alternate Form (Su): A sea hermit can assume any form of (Large size or smaller?) as a standard action"

I can't remember why we limited it to Large...I'm fine with it, though.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

so that it could always fit inside the shell and move around?

updating for one last push!


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Ahh...that makes sense.

Do you want to give it any already-stolen skills?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

....nahhh.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Then methinks it's finito.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

woohoo!  that's another 10 done.    time to take a BREAK.    will start some more conversions probably in an hour or two.  

(although, i have one ready for this thread that i can post right now if you like...)


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Go ahead and post it...I'm bored.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

as you wish.    this one is one of my choices, from MC14 Fiend Folio:

Fyrefly

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any Tropical, Sub-tropical, or Temperate
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Herbivore/Scavenger
INTELLIGENCE: Average (9)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1 (but see below)
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: Fl 18 (A)
HIT DICE: 1 hp (Attacks as 5 HD)
THAC0: 20 (15)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Starts Fire
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune To Fire Attacks
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1")
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 175

The fyrefly is a large, slow-moving black insect with red wings and reddish eyes. It is normally a benign insect which flits from plant to plant, eating leaves and rotting vegetation. For most of its life, it causes no harm to anyone. It is during the creature's reproductive cycle when it becomes dangerous to other creatures.

Combat: When a fyrefly is doused with water or hit with a cold-based spell, it falls into dormancy. It appears dead, but will awaken in 24 hours and begin its feeding process again.

When a fyrefly comes in contact with a flammable object, there is a chance it will burst into flame. To determine this chance, first determine the flammability of the object in question. On an average fighter, for example, perhaps only 10% of his/her attire would be flammable, while on a wizard almost 90% would be. On any hit, roll percentile dice to see if the fyrefly hit a flammable object. Any flammable object hit by a fyrefly, adult or larval, must save vs. normal fire or be set ablaze. Persons in burning clothing suffer 1-6 hit points of damage per round until the fire is extinguished. Hits that do not strike burnable objects are assumed to hit flesh, causing 1 hit point damage.

The fyrefly will only attack living creatures while it is in its larval stage, immediately after it has reproduced (see below.) At this time, it becomes frenzied, and will seek to set fire to any living creature. When the fyrefly is in this agitated state, it becomes extremely aggressive, and attacks as a 5 HD monster (THACO 15). Because of its extreme quickness, it becomes much more difficult to hit, with an effective Armor Class of 5. (If, for some reason, a larval fyrefly is resting, its Armor Class falls to 9.) During its aggressive phase, it flies at anything that moves, believing itself to be invincible.

When in its larval state, the fyrefly is immune to fire and fire-based attacks, but cold-based attacks will immediately cause the creature to fall dormant. Water splashed on a larval fyrefly will also cause dormancy if the insect fails a saving throw vs. paralysis.

Larval fyreflies will swarm, and area of effect spells will have a reasonable chance to take out most of the creatures, but 10% of the creatures will always survive such an attack. Remember that larval fyreflies; usually swarm around a creature, and an area of effect spell will undoubtedly affect that creature, also.

Habitat/Society: The adult fyrefly is a solitary insect, which lives in forested areas. Fyreflies spend most of their time gathering food and sleeping, waiting until the day they are to reproduce. Fyreflies voluntarily avoid others of their species, moving off into their own separate feeding areas. They sleep during the day, and feed constantly at night, pausing only to move to another leaf.

A swarm of larval fyreflies are born from one fyrefly which has fed constantly for two months. The fyrefly will seek out a fire to fly into in order to reproduce. The 'fly is not killed by the fire, but rather reverts to its larval state to reproduce. It metamorphoses into a small, insect-shaped mote of extremely hot fire. This may be noticed by a much brighter area inside the fire into which the fyrefly has flown. At this time, it begins a process of division, which, if left unchecked, will produce dozens of tiny balls of flame. If the fire is quenched while the parent fyrefly waits to split, the fly will be unable to reproduce, and will bum out in 10 minutes. If the fyrefly is undisturbed, it will produce two larval fyreflies after 10 minutes in the fire. The original 'fly dies, but its two offspring remain in the fire. For each succeeding round, each will generate two offspring, after which they leave the flame. So, two rounds after the first split, 2 fyrefly larva leave the main fire, 4 the following round, then 8, then 16, then 32, and finally 64. The final 64 fyreflies are incapable of producing any more offspring at this time. After a larval fyrefly leaves the fire, it burns until it is killed or sent into dormancy, or until 10 rounds have elapsed, when it falls dormant on its own and begins its transition to adulthood. This transition takes 9 days.

Ecology: Fyreflies are the creation of the mad wizard Grebdews, who accidentally allowed his "pets" to escape into the world.

Fyreflies would pose no problem to mankind were it not for their peculiar breeding habits. They are prized for use in many fire-based potions.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Magical beast or vermin?



			
				MC14 Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> Combat: When a fyrefly is doused with water or hit with a cold-based spell, it falls into dormancy. It appears dead, but will awaken in 24 hours and begin its feeding process again.




Merging a modified froghemoth ability and the comatose effects of the eyebite spell..

Partial Immunity to Cold (Ex): The fyrefly is partially immune to cold damage. Each time it would normally take damage from a cold attack, it takes no damage but is instead falls into a catatonic coma for 24 hours. During this time, it cannot be awakened by any means . This is not a sleep effect.



			
				MC14 Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> When a fyrefly comes in contact with a flammable object, there is a chance it will burst into flame. To determine this chance, first determine the flammability of the object in question. On an average fighter, for example, perhaps only 10% of his/her attire would be flammable, while on a wizard almost 90% would be. On any hit, roll percentile dice to see if the fyrefly hit a flammable object. Any flammable object hit by a fyrefly, adult or larval, must save vs. normal fire or be set ablaze. Persons in burning clothing suffer 1-6 hit points of damage per round until the fire is extinguished. Hits that do not strike burnable objects are assumed to hit flesh, causing 1 hit point damage.




How about this from the magmin?

Combustion (Ex): Anyone a magmin touches must succeed on a DC 12 Reflex save or take an extra 1d8 points of fire damage as clothes ignite or armor becomes searing hot. The damage continues for another 1d4+2 rounds after the magmin’s last successful attack. Magmins can also ignite flammable materials with a touch. The save DC is Constitution-based.




			
				MC14 Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> The fyrefly will only attack living creatures while it is in its larval stage, immediately after it has reproduced (see below.) At this time, it becomes frenzied, and will seek to set fire to any living creature. When the fyrefly is in this agitated state, it becomes extremely aggressive, and attacks as a 5 HD monster (THACO 15). Because of its extreme quickness, it becomes much more difficult to hit, with an effective Armor Class of 5. (If, for some reason, a larval fyrefly is resting, its Armor Class falls to 9.) During its aggressive phase, it flies at anything that moves, believing itself to be invincible.




Modified rage with an AC bonus?



			
				MC14 Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> When in its larval state, the fyrefly is immune to fire and fire-based attacks, but cold-based attacks will immediately cause the creature to fall dormant. Water splashed on a larval fyrefly will also cause dormancy if the insect fails a saving throw vs. paralysis.




Vulnerability to Water (Ex):  Contact with water or a spell with the water descriptor has the same effect as its partial immunity to cold, except the fyrefly is allowed a DC X Fortitude save to negate the effect.



			
				MC14 Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> Larval fyreflies will swarm, and area of effect spells will have a reasonable chance to take out most of the creatures, but 10% of the creatures will always survive such an attack. Remember that larval fyreflies; usually swarm around a creature, and an area of effect spell will undoubtedly affect that creature, also.




Swarm subtype?



			
				MC14 Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> Habitat/Society: The adult fyrefly is a solitary insect, which lives in forested areas. Fyreflies spend most of their time gathering food and sleeping, waiting until the day they are to reproduce. Fyreflies voluntarily avoid others of their species, moving off into their own separate feeding areas. They sleep during the day, and feed constantly at night, pausing only to move to another leaf.




Environment:  Warm or temperate forests?



			
				MC14 Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> A swarm of larval fyreflies are born from one fyrefly which has fed constantly for two months. The fyrefly will seek out a fire to fly into in order to reproduce. The 'fly is not killed by the fire, but rather reverts to its larval state to reproduce. It metamorphoses into a small, insect-shaped mote of extremely hot fire. This may be noticed by a much brighter area inside the fire into which the fyrefly has flown. At this time, it begins a process of division, which, if left unchecked, will produce dozens of tiny balls of flame. If the fire is quenched while the parent fyrefly waits to split, the fly will be unable to reproduce, and will bum out in 10 minutes. If the fyrefly is undisturbed, it will produce two larval fyreflies after 10 minutes in the fire. The original 'fly dies, but its two offspring remain in the fire. For each succeeding round, each will generate two offspring, after which they leave the flame. So, two rounds after the first split, 2 fyrefly larva leave the main fire, 4 the following round, then 8, then 16, then 32, and finally 64. The final 64 fyreflies are incapable of producing any more offspring at this time. After a larval fyrefly leaves the fire, it burns until it is killed or sent into dormancy, or until 10 rounds have elapsed, when it falls dormant on its own and begins its transition to adulthood. This transition takes 9 days.




Modify the modified split ability we gave the dhour?



			
				MC14 Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> Ecology: Fyreflies are the creation of the mad wizard Grebdews, who accidentally allowed his "pets" to escape into the world.




Supports magical beast, does it not?



			
				MC14 Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> Fyreflies would pose no problem to mankind were it not for their peculiar breeding habits. They are prized for use in many fire-based potions.




Flavor text only, or an actual game effect?  Maybe potions that deal fire damage deal an additional point, while potions that resist fire add 1 to the resistance?


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## BOZ (Nov 23, 2005)

i think Mag Beast should work.  more comments when i am not holding a baby and typing one-handed.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Merging a modified froghemoth ability and the comatose effects of the eyebite spell..
> 
> Partial Immunity to Cold (Ex): The fyrefly is partially immune to cold damage. Each time it would normally take damage from a cold attack, it takes no damage but is instead falls into a catatonic coma for 24 hours. During this time, it cannot be awakened by any means. This is not a sleep effect.




not sure about the taking no damage, but then again let's face it; if it has 1 hp, and it takes any damage from anything at all it dies.  So, maybe the no damage is just fine.   



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Modified rage with an AC bonus?




actually, I was thinking Dex 18+ with Weapon Finesse would take care of that.  I don't know about dealing with the larval stage.  If we do use the rage ability, it will have to be heavily modified.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Swarm subtype?




only if we do the larva as a separate stat block.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Modify the modified split ability we gave the dhour?




naah, mostly flavor text.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Supports magical beast, does it not?




I agree!  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Flavor text only, or an actual game effect? Maybe potions that deal fire damage deal an additional point, while potions that resist fire add 1 to the resistance?




flavor text, or both.


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure about the taking no damage, but then again let's face it; if it has 1 hp, and it takes any damage from anything at all it dies.  So, maybe the no damage is just fine.




My thoughts exactly.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> actually, I was thinking Dex 18+ with Weapon Finesse would take care of that.  I don't know about dealing with the larval stage.  If we do use the rage ability, it will have to be heavily modified.




I'll ponder this further...




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> only if we do the larva as a separate stat block.




That might not be a bad idea.    




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> naah, mostly flavor text.




Works for me.


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## BOZ (Nov 25, 2005)

we can do a separate stat block for the larva, sure, but let's do an adult first.


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2005)

Get her started.


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2005)

some preliminary stats for the fyrefly:

*Fyrefly*
Fine Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 1/4 d10 (1 hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: Fly 50 ft (perfect) (10 squares)
Armor Class: X (+8 size, +X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d2-X plus 1 fire plus combustion)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d2-X plus 1 fire plus combustion)
Space/Reach: 1 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: combustion
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft, immunity to fire, low-light vision, partial immunity to cold, vulnerability to water
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex 18+, Con 10?, Int 9, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 4
Feats: 1

Environment: Warm and temperate forest
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

A fyrefly is one inch long

COMBAT

Combustion (Ex): Anyone a fyrefly touches must succeed on a DC 10 Reflex save or take an extra 1d6 points of fire damage as clothes ignite or armor becomes searing hot. The damage continues for another X rounds after the fyrefly's last successful attack. Fyreflies can also ignite flammable materials with a touch. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Partial Immunity to Cold (Ex): The fyrefly is partially immune to cold damage. Each time it would normally take damage from a cold attack, it takes no damage but is instead falls into a catatonic coma for 24 hours. During this time, it cannot be awakened by any means. This is not a sleep effect.

Vulnerability to Water (Ex): Contact with water or a spell with the water descriptor has the same effect as its partial immunity to cold, except the fyrefly is allowed a DC X Fortitude save to negate the effect.

Originally found in Monstrous Compendium MC14 - Fiend Folio Appendix (1992, Tim Beach).


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2005)

The Giant Firefly in A&EG has the following scores: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int -, Wis 12, Cha 13

Reducing from Large to Fine would result in -18 Str, +10 Dex, -6 Con, so how about:

Str 1, Dex 25, Con 8, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 13?


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## BOZ (Nov 27, 2005)

actually... that's not bad!


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## Shade (Nov 27, 2005)

It always helps when there is somthing to reverse engineer.


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

wrote the flavor text and posted in homebrews.    let's finish up the adult stats, and then write the larval swarm stat block.


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

Feat:  Ability Focus (combustion)?  This will help offset its Con penalty.

Skills:  Move Silently 2, Spot 1, Listen 1?  It already gets a massive Hide bonus for size.

DC 10 save for water vulnerability, and maybe + spell level if it comes from a spell effect?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

i like Ability Focus more for the larvae - remember, the adult is non-agressive.


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

Then either Alertness or Stealthy?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

Alertness is needed more.


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

Cr 1/8?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

sounds about right.  they are no real threat, unless you're a mummy or something.


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

Heh.  Imagining a kindling golem...


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

heheh.    sucks to be that guy.

OK, updating in homebrews.  what else needs a-fixin for the adults?


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

Probably just its weight.  I'd say either "less than a pound" or maybe 1 ounce.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

combustion duration?


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

1d3 rounds?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

that's fine; it should probably be less than the magmin anyway.  

updating again!


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

Lookin' good.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

OK, how about the swarm?  should be fairly dangerous by comparison - not as tough as a hellwasp swarm, but definitely worse than the ones based on ordinary creatures.  CR 5-6?


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

A fire elementite swarm (swarm of tiny fire elementals) is CR 4, so I don't think I'd go higher than that.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

that's fine.  HD?


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

The other magical beast swarms at that CR have 5 HD, so that might work.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

okie dokie!  

ability scores?


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

We probably only need to change Dex and Con...maybe 19 and 10?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

that works.  i'm fixing up the stat block, and will post it momentarily...


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

...and done!


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

I think we should increase the fire damage to 1d6 fire (the fire elementite swarm at the same CR does 2d6 fire).

It should only get 2 feats, right?  Suggested Feats:  Ability Focus (combustion), Alertness.

Skill ranks:  Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Spot 2?

Don't forget the distraction writeup:

Distraction (Ex): Any living creature vulnerable to a swarm's damage that begins its turn with a larval fyrefly swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think we should increase the fire damage to 1d6 fire (the fire elementite swarm at the same CR does 2d6 fire).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Yeah, the fire damage on the attack lines, not in the combustion entry.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

any increase to the combustion damage then, or duration, or are we fine as-is?


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

I think so...how about 2d6 damage, 1d6 rounds?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

that's fine.  with so many on you, it's more than likely that the heat they generate would be far more intense.    they probably start forest fires every time they reproduce!

updating...


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

I think that finishes 'em up.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

groovy!  next up will be the giant nautilus.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2005)

and here it is!

Magical Beast or Outsider, or something else?


Dragon 193, May 93

The Dragon's Bestiary

They came from the Outer Planes!
by Randy Maxwell

Giant nautilus
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any aquatic
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -3 (shell)/3 (body)
MOVEMENT: Sw 18
HIT DICE: 14
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 21
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d8x20/5d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See text
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: G (50'+ diameter)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 19,000

The giant nautilus is a native of the plane of elemental Water. It has also been encountered on Thalasia, the great sea that occupies a layer of Elysium; the ocean Lunia, in the first layer of the Seven Heavens; and on Olympus, in the depths of Poseidon's realm. On the Prime Material plane, it wanders the depths of the deepest oceans. In appearance, the giant nautilus seems but a gigantic version of its diminutive cousin. In the case of the giant version, the spirally coiled shell is AC -3 and 50'-60' in diameter. The creature is often called the "druid of the deep" because of its absolute neutral alignment and insistence on maintaining the balance of the underwater world. The giant nautilus considers a sunken ship a terrible eyesore and actively helps in its removal (such help is usually in the form of protecting those removing the ship from the fearsome predators of the depths). The creature is totally uninterested in treasure of any kind, but it is not completely naive. It has a basic understanding of avarice and greed. Therefore, the nautilus demands that sunken vessels carrying more mundane cargo be removed before it allows the removal of a sunken treasure ship. It also demands the removal of the entire ship, not just the cargo.
Combat: Twenty strong tentacles (AC 3) encircle the creature's mouth. It can grab and constrict opponents with these tentacles for 1d8 hp damage each, while bringing the unfortunate victim into its huge mouth. The mouth is large enough to swallow a man-sized creature whole on a natural roll of 18 or better. The mouth can also bite a victim for 5d4 hp damage.
Depending on the attacker's size, the nautilus can bring all 20 tentacles to bear on a single opponent, or it may elect to attack 20 separate targets. It generally uses only three tentacles per man-sized target. Any character constricted by a tentacle may have one arm (01-50%, DM?s choice left or right), neither arm (51-75%), or both arms (76-100%) pinned and unusable. A constricted character cannot cast any spells but can attack the constricting tentacle with a weapon at -3 (one arm free) or -1 (both arms free). Each rubbery tentacle cannot be broken by force and requires 15 hp of damage from a sharp or edged weapon before being severed (severed tentacles regenerate in about one week).
Luckily, the giant nautilus has seldom been known to attack humans or any of the intelligent ocean-dwelling races, except in self-defense. The giant nautilus has a form of telepathy that allows it to communicate with any intelligent creature, regardless of language barriers. It is generally on good terms with most of the underwater races, including the sahuagin and ixitxachitl. In fact, the giant nautilus is often used by the tritons, mermen, and locathah as an impartial judge to mediate disputes among themselves and other races. For all its peaceful intent, the giant nautilus puts a stop to anyone overfishing a particular location or polluting areas of the sea by dumping garbage. It attempts to negotiate a settlement at first. If negotiation fails to work, it then warns the offenders. If the warnings are not heeded, the giant nautilus forcibly puts a stop to the offending action. It can drag a ship of small size below the water?s surface, and it can stop the movement of a larger one after one turn of winding its arms around the ship and dragging. After six or more tentacles have squeezed a ship?s hull for three consecutive rounds, the vessel suffers damage as if it had been rammed, and it begins to sink.
The giant nautilus can use the following spell-like powers, one per round, at will (consult the article "Undersea Priests" in DRAGON® issue #165 for priest spells not listed in the AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook): charm person or mammal; conjure fish; conjure water elemental (3 times per day); control temperature, 10' radius; detect evil/good; detect magic; fish summoning I, II, and III; know alignment (always active); locate fish or plants; lower water; part water; wall of coral.

Habitat/Society: The giant nautilus is a solitary wanderer of the depths and maintains no lair or permanent abode. The creature is long lived and has a natural life span of 3,000-4,000 years. Sages speculate the creature uses magic to return at times to the plane of Water, there to mate and reproduce. Where or how this takes place is unknown. An encounter with a young giant nautilus has never been recorded.

Ecology: The giant nautilus is a carnivore, and it preys on huge crustaceans such as giant crabs and giant lobsters. It has no natural enemies but is sometimes in conflict with the kraken (see "Squid, Giant" in the Monstrous Compendium). The kraken's grandiose schemes of underwater empire are often at the expense of the environment; in such cases, the nautilus is forced to intervene. The shell of the giant nautilus is a great prize. It can be converted into a roomy, virtually crush-proof submarine for exploring the depths of the ocean - a project that many tinker gnomes of Krynn would gladly undertake.



MCA1:

Nautilus, Giant

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any sea
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -3 (shell) or 3 (body)
MOVEMENT: Sw 18
HIT DICE: 14
THACO: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 21
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8 (x20)/5d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: G (50'+ diameter)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 15,000

The giant nautilus is a native of the Elemental Plane of Water. It has also been encountered on Thalasia, a layer of Elysium; the ocean Lunia, on the first laver of Mount Celestia; and on Arborea, in the depths of Poseidon's realm. On the Prime Material Plane it wanders the depths of the deepest oceans.

In appearance the giant nautilus seems to be but a gigantic version of its diminutive cousin. The creature is often called the "druid of the deep" because of its neutral alignment and insistence upon maintaining balance in the underwater world. The giant nautilus considers a sunken ship a terrible eyesore and actively helps in its removal, usually by protecting those removing the ship from the fearsome predators of the depths. The creature is uninterested in treasure of any kind, but it is not completely naive; it has a basic understanding of avarice and greed. Therefore, the nautilus demands that sunken vessels carrying more mundane cargo be removed before it allows the removal of a sunken treasure ship. It also demands the removal of the entire ship, not just the cargo.

The giant nautilus has a form of telepathy that allows it to communicate with any intelligent creature, regardless of language barriers.

Combat: Twenty strong tentacles encircle the creature's mouth. It can grab and constrict opponents with those tentacles while bringing the unfortunate victims into its huge mouth. The mouth is large enough to swallow a man-sized creature whole on a natural attack roll of 18 or better. The mouth can also bite for 5d4 points of damage.

Depending on the attacker's size, the nautilus can bring all 20 tentacles to bear on a single opponent or it may elect to attack 20 separate targets. It generally uses three tentacles per man-sized target. Any character constricted by a tentacle may have one arm (01-50%), neither arm (51-75%), or both arms (76-100%) pinned down, A constricted character cannot cast any spells, but can strike the constricting tentacle with a ?3 attack penalty (one arm free) or a -1 penalty (both arms free). Each rubbery tentacle cannot be broken by force and requires 15 points of damage from a sharp or edged weapon before severing. (Severed tentacles regenerate in about one week.)

The nautilus call drag a small ship below the water and can stop the movement of a larger one after one turn of winding its tentacles around the ship and dragging. If six or more tentacles squeeze a hull for three consecutive rounds, the vessel suffers damage as if it had been rammed and begins to sink.

This creature uses the following spell-like powers, one per round, at will: charm person or mammal; conjure water elemental (3 times per day); control temperature, 10' radius; detect evil/good; detect magic; know alignment (always active); locate fish or plants; lower water; monster summoning I, II, and III; part water; wall of coral (stone).

Habitat/Society: The giant nautilus is a solitary wanderer of the depths and maintains no lair. It has a natural life span of 3,000-4,000 years. Sages speculate the creature uses magic to return at times to the plane of Water, to reproduce.

The nautilus is on good terms with most of the underwater races, including the sahuagin and ixitxachitl. In fact, the giant nautilus is often used by the tritons, mermen, and locathah as art impartial judge to mediate disputes. For all its peaceful intent, the giant nautilus puts a stop to anyone overfishing a particular location or polluting the sea, first through negotiation, then by warning, and finally through force.

Ecology: The giant nautilus preys on huge crustacea such as giant crabs and lobsters. It has no natural enemies, but is sometimes in conflict with the kraken (see the MONSTROUS MANUAL tome). The shell of the giant nautilus is a great prize. It can be converted into a roomy, virtually crush-proof submarine.


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 2, 2005)

IMy vote is for Magical Beast.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

Magical Beast (Extraplanar) with either Aquatic or Water subtype.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2005)

interesting.  i wonder if the response would have been different if i mentioned Outsider first.    i'm just fine with Magical Beast though.

maybe Water subtype since it is from that plane?


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

Nah...I'll always pick outsider over other types if I can make it fit.  But in this case, it reminded me of a kraken, which is magical beast. 

I was thinking Water for that same reason.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2005)

and, they are enemies of the kraken, sort of like the opposite number.


some preliminary stats for the giant nautilus:

*Giant Nautilus*
Gargantuan Magical Beast (Extraplanar, Water)
Hit Dice: 14d10+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: Swim 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (-4 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+X
Attack: tentacle
Full Attack: 20 tentacles +X melee (1d8+X) and bite +X melee (5d4+X)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: Constrict, improved grab, spell-like abilities, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, spell resistance 13, telepathy X ft
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 18, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 102
Feats: 5

Environment: Elemental Plane of Water
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 15-28 HD (Gargantuan); 29-42 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: ---


COMBAT
(tentacle severing)


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

Dragon 193 said:
			
		

> The giant nautilus can use the following spell-like powers, one per round, at will (consult the article "Undersea Priests" in DRAGON® issue #165 for priest spells not listed in the AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook): charm person or mammal; conjure fish; conjure water elemental (3 times per day); control temperature, 10' radius; detect evil/good; detect magic; fish summoning I, II, and III; know alignment (always active); locate fish or plants; lower water; part water; wall of coral.




Time to bust out Dragon #165!


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2005)

i don't have the archive with me, but if you do, feel free to post locate fish or plants, wall of coral, and fish summoning.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

Locate fish or plants replaces locate animals or plants in the sea-priest's spell repertoire. The spell enables the caster to find any fish or sea plant using the same guidelines on the general frequency of a subject as given for locate animals or plants. The spell enables the caster to find only fish, not sea mammals or fantastic creatures.

Fish summoning I replaces animal summoning I on Table 1. By means of this spell, the caster calls up to eight fish that have four hit dice or less, of whatever sort the caster names when the summoning is made. The caster may try three times to summon three different
types of fish. The caster may only summon normal or giant-sized fish, such as sharks, swordfish, barracudas, etc. The spell fails to summon sea mammals or fantastic creatures. Spell range, creature actions, and chance of a creature type being within range are the same as animal summoning I.

Fish summoning II is much the same as fish summoning I, only the spell allows the summoning of either more fish or fish with a greater number of hit dice. The spell summons six fish of eight hit dice or less, or 12 fish of four hit dice or less, if such are within range. As with fish summoning I, the caster may try three times to summon three different types of fish, and only normal or giant-sized fish can be summoned. Spell range, creature actions,
and chance of a creature type being within range are the same as animal summoning II.

Fish summoning III is much the same as fish summoning I and II, except this spell allows the summoning of up to four fish of no more than 16 hit dice, eight fish of no more than eight hit dice, or 16 fish of no more than four hit dice each. As with fish summoning I, the caster
may try three times to summon three different types of fish, and only normal or giant-sized fish can be summoned. Spell range, creature actions, and the chance of a creature type being within range are the same as for animal summoning III.

The sea-priest creates a wall of coral instead of a wall of thorns. The wall of coral spell creates a barrier of hard, rough coral with many razor-sharp edges. The dimensions of, damage inflicted by, and duration of a wall of coral are the same as wall of thorns. A passage can be battered through the wall of coral in four turns.


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 2, 2005)

You could probably just use the appropriate summon nature's ally spells for fish summoning.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2005)

yep, and just add some appropriate notes to mention the minor changes.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

Yeah, the original author did most of the work for us.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2005)

do we have anything to compare it to for ability scores?  i say high Wis, since it is druid-like in how it behaves and thinks.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

The kraken might be a good place to start:

Str 34, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 21, Wis 20, Cha 20


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2005)

That's as good enough a place to start as any.  since I'm going with only 18 Int, I'll raise the Wis and leave the Cha the same.

The creatures are in the same size category, though the nautilus' body is much larger, but the kraken has much more HD.  The kraken has 8 limbs, but the nautilus has 20!  Does any of that give clues on whether we should go up or down with the Str, Dex, and Con?


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2005)

Not really.  Personally, I'd think the increased mass could account for higher Con and lower Dex.

Or, to look at it another way, if we were to increase from Gargantuan to Colossal, it would get +8 Str, no change to Dex, and +4 Con.  So I suppose you could equate a slightly higher Str and Con for a slightly larger size within the same category.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

we could go Str 38, Dex 9, Con 31 then.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

Let's do so, then.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

my evil plan is working.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

*Giant Nautilus*
Gargantuan Magical Beast (Extraplanar, Water)
Hit Dice: 14d10+140 (217 hp) 
Initiative: -1
Speed: Swim 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +18 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+40
Attack: tentacle
Full Attack: 20 tentacles +24 melee (1d8+14) and bite +19 melee (5d4+7)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: Constrict, improved grab, spell-like abilities, squeeze hull, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, spell resistance 13, telepathy X ft
Saves: Fort +19, Ref +8, Will +10
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 9, Con 31, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 20
Skills: 102
Feats: 5

Environment: Elemental Plane of Water
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 15-28 HD (Gargantuan); 29-42 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: ---


COMBAT

An opponent can attack a giant nautilus's tentacles with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A giant nautilus's tentacles have 15 hit points each. If a giant nautilus is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a giant nautilus's tentacles deals 7 points of damage to the creature.  A giant nautilus usually withdraws from combat if it loses (10? 12?) tentacles.  The creature regrows severed limbs in (7) days.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

Constrict (Ex): A giant nautilus deals automatic tentacle damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the giant nautilus must hit with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will--charm animal, charm person, control water, detect evil, detect good, locate creature (aquatic animals or plants only), summon nature's ally III (aquatic creatures only), wall of coral (as wall of thorns); 3/day—summon monster X (water elementals only). Caster level Xth. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Skills: A giant nautilus has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

conjure elemental was a 5th-level spell that summoned 8-HD elementals.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

Summon monster VI gets 8-HD Large elementals.  Did conjure elementals allow summoning more than one?  If so, we'd need summon monster VII (1d3) or VIII (1d4+1).  Or we could give it an actual summon ability instead.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

should have posted this in the first place:

Conjure Elemental 
(Conjuration/Summoning)

Range: 60 yds.	Components: V, S, M
Duration: 1 turn/level	Casting Time: 1 turn
Area of Effect: Special	Saving Throw: None

	There are actually four spells in the conjure elemental spell. The wizard is able to conjure an air, earth, fire, or water elemental with this spell--assuming he has the material component for the particular elemental. (A considerable fire source must be in range to conjure a fire elemental; a large amount of water must be available to conjure a water elemental.) Conjured elementals have 8 Hit Dice.
	It is possible to conjure successive elementals of different types if the spellcaster has memorized two or more of these spells. The type of elemental to be conjured must be decided upon before memorizing the spell. Each type of elemental can be conjured only once per day.
	The conjured elemental must be controlled by the wizard--the spellcaster must concentrate on the elemental doing his commands--or it turns on the wizard and attacks. The elemental will not break off a combat to do so, but it will avoid creatures while seeking its conjurer. If the wizard is wounded or grappled, his concentration is broken. There is always a 5% chance that the elemental turns on its conjurer regardless of concentration. This check is made at the end of the second and each succeeding round. An elemental that breaks free of its control can be dispelled by the caster, but the chance of success is only 50%. The elemental can be controlled up to 30 yards away per level of the spellcaster. The elemental remains until its form on this plane is destroyed due to damage or until the spell's duration expires. Note that water elementals are destroyed if they are ever more than 60 yards from a large body of water.
	The material component of the spell (besides the quantity of the element at hand) is a small amount of one of the following:

	Air Elemental--burning incense
	Earth Elemental--soft clay
	Fire Elemental--sulphur and phosphorus
	Water Elemental--water and sand

	Special protection from uncontrolled elementals is available by means of a protection from evil spell.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

So, summon monster VI should suffice.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

Dragon 193 said:
			
		

> The giant nautilus can use the following spell-like powers, one per round, at will (consult the article "Undersea Priests" in DRAGON® issue #165 for priest spells not listed in the AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook): charm person or mammal; conjure fish; conjure water elemental (3 times per day); control temperature, 10' radius; detect evil/good; detect magic; fish summoning I, II, and III; know alignment (always active); locate fish or plants; lower water; part water; wall of coral.




since it could detect evil and good, and since it had know alignment (always active), how about combining the ideas?  

skipping detect magic on purpose?


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> since it could detect evil and good, and since it had know alignment (always active), how about combining the ideas?




Sounds good.  I know there's something like know alignment somewhere in 3E, but I always have trouble finding it.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> skipping detect magic on purpose?




Nope.  Purely accidental.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

there may be, but i don't want to bother with it.    we could just give it detect good and detect evil always active.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

Some more to strike from the list:

*MCA1 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One, 1994*

Cat, Winged (Greater, Lesser) - do these differ from the tressym?
Laraken (FR16) - in Shining South
Spectral Wizard - does this differ from spectral mage in Magic of Faerun?
Tree, Death's Head (RLMC3) - Appears in Dragon #292
Tuyewara - already in CC

MCA2 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two, 1995

Elf, Winged ("Avariel") (DR51 as winged folk, CBE as avariel) - in Races of Faerun
Giant, Half-giant (Athasian) (DR173) - in Dragon #319
Hakeashar (FRE1, FR10, CoS); - in Lost Empires of Faerun (within nishruu)
Leucrotta, Greater (CoS) - does this differ from changesteed leucrotta in Waterdeep?

MCA3 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three, 1996

Belgoi - in Dungeon #111
Hag, Bheur (Spbd) - in Unapproachable East
Ixitxachitl, Ixzan (NtB) - in Lost Empires of Faerun
Spirit, Forest - Uthraki (Spbd) - in Unapproachable East 
Spirit, Ice - Orglash (Spbd) - in Unapproachable East
Spirit, Rock - Thomil (Spbd) - in Unapproachable East

MCA4 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four, 1998

Mummy, Bog (DR238, Req) - WOTC's site
Snake - Sewerm - Serpent Kingdoms


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> *MCA1 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One, 1994*
> 
> Cat, Winged (Greater, Lesser) - do these differ from the tressym?
> Spectral Wizard - does this differ from spectral mage in Magic of Faerun?




no idea.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> MCA2 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two, 1995
> 
> Elf, Winged ("Avariel") (DR51 as winged folk, CBE as avariel) - in Races of Faerun




there's no monster stats though, are there?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Giant, Half-giant (Athasian) (DR173) - in Dragon #319




is that the Athasian half-giant though?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Leucrotta, Greater (CoS) - does this differ from changesteed leucrotta in Waterdeep?




no idea.  




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> MCA4 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four, 1998
> 
> Mummy, Bog (DR238, Req) - WOTC's site




is that the same bog mummy from Ravenloft?


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> there's no monster stats though, are there?




Does that matter?  There's more than enough racial statistics to construct a typical 1st-level warrior stat block.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> is that the Athasian half-giant though?




Indeed.  All the races in that article are called Athasian X.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> is that the same bog mummy from Ravenloft?




Dunno.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

works for me.  back to the nautilus!


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

Swallow Whole (Ex): A giant nautilus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes X+X points of crushing damage plus X points of acid damage per round from the nautilus's stomach/gizzard/interior. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal X points of damage to the stomach/gizzard/interior (AC X). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Gargantuan giant nautilus's interior can hold (1 Huge, 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents?).


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

here's a good question - should a character be able to cut its way out, because of the shell?  it should be trapped in a stomach or whatever a clam has.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

Oooh...new mechanic needed?    

They should be able to get out _somehow_...maybe the usual "cut your way out of soft interior", followed by sunder attempt against the shell?


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

do we have anything else with a shell or unusuall hard exterior that swallows?  should we just not worry about it?


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

Nothing comes to mind.


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

we can just up the damage it takes to break out then.  the AC would be 19 as it is.


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 7, 2005)

The winged cats are different from the tressym, although the tressym is included with the winged cats.  The spectral wizard is the same as the spectral mage in Magic of Faerun and the greater leucrotta and changesteed are the same creature.


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## BOZ (Dec 7, 2005)

i suspected those things but didn't have the sources on hand to look up; thanks for confirming.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> we can just up the damage it takes to break out then.  the AC would be 19 as it is.




That works for me.


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## BOZ (Dec 7, 2005)

"It can drag a ship of small size below the water’s surface, and it can stop the movement of a larger one after one turn of winding its arms around the ship and dragging. After six or more tentacles have squeezed a ship’s hull for three consecutive rounds, the vessel suffers damage as if it had been rammed, and it begins to sink."


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2005)

The sea drake's got us covered:

Constrict Ship (Ex): Instead of crushing a ship with its tail, a sea drake can wrap its serpentine body around all but the largest ships and crush them or drag them below the waves automatically. This can be done to a rowboath (1 round), keelboats (3 rounds), longships (5 rounds), and sailing ships (10 rounds). Warships and galleys are too large for a sea drake to affect in this way.


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## BOZ (Dec 7, 2005)

cool - shall we keep the same effects for the same ship dimensions?  or would that be off a little?


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2005)

Both are Gargantuan creatures, so the numbers should work.

We should also give it a special attack that emulates its ability to constrict ships to deal the equivalent of ramming damage.  Here's how the ramming attack usually looks:    

Ramming (Ex): As a standard action during its turn each round, an ocean strider can swim at up to quadruple speed (240 feet) and ram a waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature). To ram, the ocean strider must end its movement in the target's space. This attack deals 2d8+6 points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC 29 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the ocean strider can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC 15). Success means the creature takes 1d10 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 8, 2005)

for starters, we could kill most of the first paragraph, and probably the last couple of sentences from the second.


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2005)

How's this?

Constrict Ship (Ex): A giant nautilus can wrap six or more of its tentacles around all but the largest ships and crush them or drag them below the waves automatically. This can be done to rowboats (1 round), keelboats (3 rounds), longships (5 rounds), and sailing ships (10 rounds). Warships and galleys are too large for a giant nautilus to affect in this way.

Alternatively, a giant nautilus can attempt to crush a ship of any size in its tentacles.  It must make a Strength check to breach the ship's hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 8, 2005)

yay!


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2005)

Can we get a Homebrews?


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2005)

sure, why not.


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2005)

Skills: Concentration +10, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (nature) +15, Knowledge (the planes) +17, Listen +15, Sense Motive +5, Spot +15, Use Magic Device +15
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Iron Will


----------



## BOZ (Dec 8, 2005)

that should work.


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Taking these feats and skills into consideration...

Initiative: +3
Attack: Tentacle +24 melee (1d8+14/19-20) 
Full Attack: 20 tentacles +24 melee (1d8+14/19-20) and bite +19 melee (3d4+7)
Saves: Fort +19, Ref +8, Will +12
Skills: Concentration +20, Diplomacy +7, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (nature) +19, Knowledge (the planes) +21, Listen +23, Sense Motive +11, Spot +23, Survival +6 (+8 aboveground, +8 on other planes), Swim +22, Use Magic Device +20
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Iron Will

I think it needs longer reach with its tentacles.  Here's what the kraken has:
20 ft./15 ft. (60 ft. with tentacle)

Caster level = HD (14th) for SLAs?


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

i agree that it needs longer reach with the tentacles.  judging from the picture in MCA1, i'd say that its tentacles are a lot shorter than a kraken's, though.


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

How about 40 ft. then?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 9, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about 40 ft. then?



I was thinking 30 ft., but I suppose 40 ft. would work too.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm fine with 30 ft., too.

Of course, they are supposed to be able to wrap around some pretty large ships.


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

the tentacles probably don't have to wrap all the way around to crush or pull down a ship - they just need enough to get a grip.


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Then 30 or 40 feet should suffice.


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

excellent.  shall we discuss swallow whole next?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Here's the usual ability...

Swallow Whole (Ex): A giant nautilus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes X+X points of crushing damage plus X points of acid damage per round from the nautilus's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal X points of damage to the gizzard (AC X). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Gargantuan nautilus's interior can hold X Large, X Medium, X Small, X Tiny, or X Diminutive or smaller opponents.


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

the AC should be 19, and we discussed that it should have a higher than normal amount of damage that needs to be done to escape to account for getting through the shell.

got anything to compare to for the crushing and acid damage?


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Some other "swallowers":

Purple worm (G):  2d8+12 and 8 points of acid 
Nightcrawler (G):  2d8+12 and 12 points of acid 
Scyllan (H):  2d8+16 and 2d6 points of acid 
Battletintan (H):  2d8+12 and 12 points of acid


----------



## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

well, 2d8 base crushing damage seems common enough then.  is the + from Str, or is it more or less random?

as for the acid damage, that seems random enough.    want a set value or a die roll?


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Of the four, only the purple worm's Str bonus matches its plus.

Hmmm...I wonder if it was based off the size bonus to grapple, with the ability to fluctuate up or down on the chart one or two sizes like other attacks based on size?

I like the static acid damage.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

shall we mimic the nightcrawler then?  

how much damage should it take to break out of the gizzard and shell?


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Sounds good.

The nightcrawler takes 35 points.  Maybe double it to 70?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

yikes!  well, maybe.  what do the others do?  it's not expected to come from a single hit, is it?


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

25, 25, and 30.  The tarrasque is 50.  Maybe we should go with 50...we don't want to embarrass the big T.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

yes, 50 should be high enough.  that doesn't have to come from a single attack does it?


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Nope.



			
				Monster Types and Abilities said:
			
		

> Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

good.    updating in homebrews...


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Attack:  Tentacle +24 melee (1d8+14/19-20)

telepathy 100 feet?

DCs for SLAs:  charm animal (16), charm person (16)


----------



## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

does it currently have a method to get to other planes?


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Nope.  I'd recommend just adding plane shift as a spell-like ability.  3/day?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

i say 1/day - it wouldn't need to move around very often.


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Sounds good.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 10, 2005)

> Depending on the attacker's size, the nautilus can bring all 20 tentacles to bear on a single opponent, or it may elect to attack 20 separate targets. It generally uses only three tentacles per man-sized target. Any character constricted by a tentacle may have one arm (01-50%, DM?s choice left or right), neither arm (51-75%), or both arms (76-100%) pinned and unusable. A constricted character cannot cast any spells but can attack the constricting tentacle with a weapon at -3 (one arm free) or -1 (both arms free).




can we, or better yet, should we use any of this?



> control temperature, 10' radius




we don't have anything for this, do we?



> The nautilus can drag a small ship below the water and can stop the movement of a larger one after one turn of winding its tentacles around the ship and dragging.




do you figure we should say anything about stopping the movement?


----------



## Shade (Dec 11, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> can we, or better yet, should we use any of this?




No, and better yet, no.    




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> we don't have anything for this, do we?




Nope.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> do you figure we should say anything about stopping the movement?




No.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

what, if anything, would be a good replacement for control temperature?  if nothing, we can just skip it because it's not overly important.


----------



## Filby (Dec 12, 2005)

_Control temperature_ appears as a spell in _Frostburn_, but I don't think that helps much.

Doesn't the shatjan in the CC have an ability like that?

EDIT: Here it is.

Lower Temperature (Su): As a free action, once per round, the shatjan can lower the temperature by 10 degrees in a 10-foot radius centered on the shatjan. All normal effects for cold weather apply. When the shatjan chooses to end this effect, the temperature returns to normal at a rate of 10 degrees per round. If the shatjan uses this ability again, the effects stack.


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

Nice catch, Filby.  We do so many of these that I frequently forget what we did!

I'll add this to the Monster Conversion Notes thread so we can find it in the future.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

i think it was a little more important and integral to the shatjan than it is to the nautilus, so i'll skip it.

go check 'em out in Homebrews!


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

At 20 HD, a kraken is only CR 12.  These fellas have 6 less HD, but 12 more attacks and a few more abilities, so CR 12 may work here as well.

SR 13 is probably pointless.  I'd say either ditch it or bump it up to at least 20.

We can skip the weight since it is a purely aquatic creature.

For limb regrowth, a kraken is 1d10+10 days.  We could use that or 1d6+6 days.

Wall of coral was supposedly equivalent to wall of thorns, not wall of stone.

The swallow whole size numbers look good.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

but, in MCA1...

This creature uses the following spell-like powers, one per round, at will: charm person or mammal; conjure water elemental (3 times per day); control temperature, 10' radius; detect evil/good; detect magic; know alignment (always active); locate fish or plants; lower water; monster summoning I, II, and III; part water; wall of coral (stone).

which sounds more appropriate?


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

In all honesty, stone is much easier to adjudicate, so I'd say that's fine.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

okely dokely!  updating again.


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

I'd say it withdraws after losing 12 tentacles.  

What's left other than deciding on spell resistance?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

A Gargantuan giant nautilus's interior can hold (1 Huge, 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents?).

as for SR, what is the best formula to use here?  CR+8, CR +11, something else?


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

Swallow business looks good.

It originally had MR 20%.  That equates to CR +5 (CR + 11 equals 50%, and every 5% less or more equals +1 or -1).  So SR 17?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 12, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Swallow business looks good.



I agree



> It originally had MR 20%.  That equates to CR +5 (CR + 11 equals 50%, and every 5% less or more equals +1 or -1).  So SR 17?



Works for me.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 13, 2005)

updating for one last look.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 13, 2005)

Looks done to me.   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 13, 2005)

if we're ready to move on, i've got something ready for this thread.


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## Shade (Dec 13, 2005)

I'm ready...unless its another humanoid or monstrous humanoid!


----------



## BOZ (Dec 13, 2005)

definitely not!


City by the Silt Sea (1994, Shane Lacy Hensley):

Dragon Beetle
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Giustenal under-region
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Nest
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-16
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Venom
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1 foot long)
MORALE: Unsteady (6-7)
XP VALUE: 65

Dragon beetles are dark crimson in color with black-trimmed shells. They have three horns, spiked shells, and vicious-looking stingers. Dragon beetles grow to a size of one foot long. When threatened, they produce a raspy, hissing sound.

Unlike other types of beetles, dragon beetles do not have wings. They are basically unintelligent, and do not see or hear very well. They rely on taste and touch to interact with the world around them. While most other types of beetles are not social creatures, dragon beetles live together in units called nests. The nest is the most important location for a dragon beetle, and it will defend the nest from all intruders.

Dragon beetles seem to communicate among themselves by touch and a small variety of sounds, but they have no capacity for understanding or communicating with intelligent creatures.

Combat: Dragon beetles have two attack forms they can use. The primary attack is a bite that delivers 1d4 points of damage via strong mandibles. The second attack form is a stinger that delivers a dose of venom on a successful hit. The stinger's physical damage is negligible, and the poison only affects drakes, dragons, and dray. To others, the sting is only slightly more bothersome than a normal insect bite. It hurts a little at first, then itches, but produces no other harmful effects.

Dragon beetles produce venom that doesn't harm humans or demihumans. If a drake, dragon, or dray is hit by a dragon beetle's stinger, it must make a saving throw versus poison. A successful save inflicts 1d10 points of damage. A failed save causes 2d10 points of damage and mark the area around the insertion point with a burning red scar.

Lone dragon beetles are not typically aggressive. When confronted, a lone dragon beetle flees unless there is no escape route. Even then, it will not attack. Instead, it lies perfectly still and hisses, refusing to fight even if attacks are launched against it. In groups of two or more, however, dragon beetles become very aggressive. Any creature that comes within 10 feet of a group of beetles suffers from bite and stinger attacks. If intruders approach a dragon beetle hive, all present beetles swarm to attack, gaining a +1 attack roll bonus and a +1 damage bonus to all successful bites.

Habitat/Society: Dragon beetles can be found throughout the under-region beneath Giustenal. The Groaning City, Kragmorta, and even New Giustenal are infested with the creatures. They live in groups of up to 16 beetles. They establish nests in the underground ruins, in cramped caves, and even in thick clumps of underground vegetation. At least half of the nest ranges out to hunt every day, seeking recently killed creatures or prey that a group of beetles can easily take down.

The dray of New Giustenal, for example, must constantly watch for signs of dragon beetle activity in the fanner fields. Small fanners are often targeted by packs of prowling dragon beetles. The fact that the venom of a dragon beetle is toxic to a dray makes the creatures especially dangerous, and fanner field guard duty is not a particularly sought after assignment.

Nests are always led by larger, stronger dragon beetles. A nest leader is always 3 HD, with a stronger shell that provides AC 5. The bite of a nest leader causes 1d6 points of damage. Its venom inflicts 1d12 points of damage on dray and other draconic species (2d12 if a successful save is rolled).

Ecology: Dragon beetles eat carrion, though they have been known to bring down small creatures when they attack in sufficient numbers. The dray of Kragmorta and New Giustenal are particularly susceptible to the poison of dragon beetles, and sometimes find themselves as meals for a nest of the creatures. When a sufficient supply of meat is found (either carrion or prey killed by the dragon beetles), the dragon beetles work together to haul the body back to the nest. In the nest, the body is used not only as a food source (a medium-sized creature can last for as long as two months) but as a depository for eggs. The females of the nest lay their eggs within the carcass. When the eggs hatch (in about one month's time), the newborn beetles feast upon the remaining flesh until they are strong enough to emerge and join the rest of the nest. Adventurers who come across a dragon beetle nest can sometimes find treasure on these egg-infested carcasses (especially on the body of a dead dray).

It is possible to extract dragon beetle venom and coat weapons with it, causing great harm to dray opponents. Each beetle can produce 1-4 doses or coatings, and each dose is good for a single effect. On a naked blade, the poison remains potent for one day. In a glass or ceramic container, the venom keeps for a week. Both first and second generation dray have used poison-coated weapons against each other, but the danger inherent in gathering the venom doesn't make its use practical or common.

The first generation dray of Lagmorta sometimes use dragon beetles as part of their tests of adulthood. Young dray are sometimes sent to locate a dragon beetle nest and return with a few of the small creatures. In sufficient numbers, the chitinous shells of the dragon beetles can be used to fashion armor and shields. Creating armor from dragon beetle shells is a painstaking process, and only a few older dray know how to build useful items from the stuff.


Monstrous Compendium Annual Two (1995)

Beetle, Dragon
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Desert, subterranean
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Nest
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil (B)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 2-16
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1' long)
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7)
XP VALUE: 65

Measuring about 1 foot long, dragon beetles are dark crimson in color with black-trimmed shells. They have three horns, spiked shells, and vicious-looking stingers. 

Unlike other types of beetles, dragon beetles do not have wings. They are basically unintelligent, and do not see or hear very well. They rely on taste and touch to interact with the world around them.

Dragon beetles seem to communicate among themselves by touch and a small variety of sounds, but they have no capacity for understanding or communicating with intelligent creatures.  When threatened, they produce a raspy, hissing sound.

Combat: Dragon beetles have two attack forms. The primary attack is a bite that delivers 1d4 points of damage via strong mandibles. The second attack is a stinger that delivers a dose of venom on a successful hit. The stinger's physical damage is negligible, and the poison only affects dragons and dragon-kin such as drakes, pseudodragons, and wyverns. To others, the sting is only slightly more bothersome than a normal insect bite. It hurts a little at first, then itches, but produces no other harmful effects.

Dragon beetles produce venom that doesn't harm humans or demihumans. If a dragon or dragon-kin is hit by a dragon beetle's stinger, it must make a saving throw versus poison. A successful save inflicts 1d10 points of damage. A failed save causes 2d10 points of damage and marks the area around the insertion point with a burning red scar.

Lone dragon beetles are not typically aggressive. When confronted, a lone dragon beetle flees unless there is no escape route. Even then, it will not attack. Instead, it lies perfectly still and hisses, refusing to fight even if attacks are launched against it. In groups of two or more, however, dragon beetles become very aggressive. Any creature that comes within 10 feet of a group of beetles will be attacked. If intruders approach a dragon beetle nest, all present beetles swarm to attack, gaining a +1 attack roll bonus and a +1 damage bonus to all successful bites.

Habitat/Society: While most other types of beetles are not social creatures, dragon beetles live together in groups called nests.  The nest is the most important location for a dragon beetles, and it will defend the nest from all intruders. Nests of up to 16 beetles can be found in underground ruins, in cramped caves, and even in thick clumps of underground vegetation. At least half of the nest ranges out to hunt every day, seeking recently killed creatures or prey that a group of beetles can easily take down.

Nests are always occupied by larger, stronger dragon beetles. A nest leader is always 3 HD, with a stronger shell that provides AC 5. The bite of a nest leader causes 1d6 points of damage. Its venom inflicts 2d12 points of damage on draconic species (1d12 if a saving throw is successful).

Ecology: Dragon beetles eat carrion, though they have been known to bring down small creatures when they attack in sufficient numbers. When enough meat is found (either carrion or prey), the beetles work together to haul the body back to the nest. 

In the nest, the body is used not only as a food source - a man-sized creature can last for as long as two months - but as a depository for eggs. The females lay their eggs in the carcass. When the eggs hatch (in about one month's time), the newborn beetles feast upon the remaining flesh until they are strong enough to emerge and join the rest of the nest. Adventurers locating a dragon beetle nest can sometimes find treasure on these egg-infested carcasses.

It is possible to extract dragon beetle venom and coat weapons with it, causing great harm to dray opponents. Each beetle can produce 1-4 doses or coatings, and each dose is good for a single effect. On a naked blade, the poison remains potent for one day. In a glass or ceramic container, the venom keeps for a week. Crude armor and shields can be fashioned from the chitinous shells of dragon beetles, though this is a painstaking process, and requires proper knowledge of crafting techniques.


----------



## Shade (Dec 13, 2005)

Woo-hoo!

So...magical beast or vermin?   It isn't all that out of the ordinary, so I could see vermin.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 13, 2005)

Yes I would go for Vermin too. There's really nothing unusual about it other than its venom. How should we handle that - it only affects the creatures listed? Or it affects all creatures with the Dragon type or something else?

Size would be Tiny.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 13, 2005)

I think vs. the dragon type would be a good solution.

Also, I think we'll need to stat out the nest leader as a separate creature, as its poison deals more damage.  Simply having an advancement range won't cut it. (See knell beetles in MMIII for a similar situation).


----------



## Shade (Dec 13, 2005)

So, assuming Tiny vermin, we have:

For ability scores, Giant Fire Beetle (size Small) has Str 10, Dex 11, Con 11, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 7.

Reversing the size increase from Tiny to Small gives -4 Str, +2 Dex.

So...Str 6, Dex 13, Con 11, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 7?

Organization:  Nest (2-16)?
Environment:  Warm deserts and underground?
Advancement:  2 HD (Tiny)?



> Lone dragon beetles are not typically aggressive. When confronted, a lone dragon beetle flees unless there is no escape route. Even then, it will not attack. Instead, it lies perfectly still and hisses, refusing to fight even if attacks are launched against it. In groups of two or more, however, dragon beetles become very aggressive. Any creature that comes within 10 feet of a group of beetles will be attacked. If intruders approach a dragon beetle nest, all present beetles swarm to attack, gaining a +1 attack roll bonus and a +1 damage bonus to all successful bites.




Swarmfighting like we gave the illithocytes?

Swarmfighting (Ex): Illithocytes can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. An illithocyte can occupy the same 5-foot square in combat with any other illithocyte at no penalty. When an illithocyte engages a Medium or larger creature in melee, and at least one other illithocyte threatens the target, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional illithocyte beyond the first that threatens the same target.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 13, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> So...Str 6, Dex 13, Con 11, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 7?



Works for me.


> Organization:  Nest (2-16)?



plus nest leader?


> Environment:  Warm deserts and underground?
> Advancement:  2 HD (Tiny)?



That's fine



> Swarmfighting like we gave the illithocytes?
> 
> Swarmfighting (Ex): Illithocytes can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. An illithocyte can occupy the same 5-foot square in combat with any other illithocyte at no penalty. When an illithocyte engages a Medium or larger creature in melee, and at least one other illithocyte threatens the target, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional illithocyte beyond the first that threatens the same target.



Again, that's fine with me. 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Dec 15, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think vs. the dragon type would be a good solution.




absolutely.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Also, I think we'll need to stat out the nest leader as a separate creature, as its poison deals more damage.  Simply having an advancement range won't cut it. (See knell beetles in MMIII for a similar situation).




interesting idea!  i'll support it.    as with the fyrefly swarm, let's do that after statting out the main critter.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> So, assuming Tiny vermin, we have:
> 
> For ability scores, Giant Fire Beetle (size Small) has Str 10, Dex 11, Con 11, Int ?, Wis 10, Cha 7.
> 
> ...




Str 6 seems like it might be a bit high for a one-foot long creature...  otherwise looks fine.  there is also a discrepancy to consider:



			
				City by the Silt Sea said:
			
		

> INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)





			
				Monstrous Compendium Annual Two said:
			
		

> INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)




barely intelligent as originally intended, or not at all as revised?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Swarmfighting like we gave the illithocytes?




excellent call!    will that ability change given that we are using it for a Tiny creature?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 15, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Str 6 seems like it might be a bit high for a one-foot long creature...  otherwise looks fine.  there is also a discrepancy to consider:



4 or 5 then?


> barely intelligent as originally intended, or not at all as revised?



Well, if we stick the Vermin type (which I see no problems with) then it won't have an Intelligence score. 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Dec 15, 2005)

not at all true.  Vermin are no longer required to not have an Intelligence score (not that they ever truly were).


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2005)

I'd say go with mindless.


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## Mortis (Dec 15, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> not at all true.  Vermin are no longer required to not have an Intelligence score (not that they ever truly were).



Sorry BOZ

I was just going by the SRD entry (emphasis mine).  
Of course WotC may have changed their minds one way or the other. 



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Vermin Type: This type includes insects, arachnids, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates.
> Features: Vermin have the following features.
> —8-sided Hit Dice.
> —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).
> ...




Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 16, 2005)

dig a little deeper:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> ?Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.




but i'll go with shade, simply because it's easier in this case to just go with mindless.    Str 4 should work, and puts it on par with a Tiny owl.

speaking of Tiny, does that size affect its Swarmfighting ability?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 16, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> dig a little deeper



Ah! hidden in the Skill Points line.   

Actually thinking about it having no Intelligence score and being Mindless is probably better than having a Int of 1. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> speaking of Tiny, does that size affect its Swarmfighting ability?




Yes...good point.   The problem areas are in bold:

Swarmfighting (Ex): Illithocytes can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. *An illithocyte can occupy the same 5-foot square in combat with any other illithocyte at no penalty*. When an illithocyte engages a Medium or larger creature in melee, *and at least one other illithocyte threatens the target*, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional illithocyte beyond the first that threatens the same target.

From the SRD:

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. *A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square*. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. *Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.*

So, perhaps rewriting like so?

Swarmfighting (Ex): Dragon beetles can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. Any number of dragon beetles can occupy the same 5-foot square in combat with any other dragon beetles at no penalty. When a dragon beetle engages a Small or larger creature in melee, and at least one other dragon beetle occupies the target's space, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional dragon beetle beyond the first that threatens the same target.


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## Mortis (Dec 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Swarmfighting (Ex): Dragon beetles can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. *Any number* of dragon beetles can occupy the same 5-foot square in combat with any other dragon beetles at no penalty. When a dragon beetle engages a Small or larger creature in melee, and at least one other dragon beetle occupies the target's space, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional dragon beetle beyond the first that threatens the same target.



I'm not sure about 'Any number'. I think that we should limit it to X number of  dragon beetles, but go on to mention the 'swarmed' creature's size so more dragon beetles could swarmfight against a Large creature, more still against a Hugh creature etc. That could actually make them more useful against larger creatures. 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Dec 17, 2005)

that is a good point - i don't think we should expect to be seeing thousands of foot-long beetles in a 5-foot square.    i figure we could be just fine using the normal limits, but i wouldn't mind doubling them.

i don't know if it's necessary to mention the creature's size, if you apply a little logic.  Four tiny creatures normally fit into a 5-foot square, so then couldn't 4 Tiny creatures attack a Medium opponent?  By the same logic, a Colossal creature has a 30-foot space, so since it takes up a total of 36 5-foot squares, could not then 144 Tiny creatures attack it at once?  That would be one hell of an attack bonus - damn near any creature would be dead in a round or two (unless it has DR; then it would be fine).


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## Mortis (Dec 19, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> By the same logic, a Colossal creature has a 30-foot space, so since it takes up a total of 36 5-foot squares, could not then 144 Tiny creatures attack it at once?



Obviously, to complicate matters, some of those squares would be inside the Colossal creature's body and not subject to the swarming. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

We can stick with the usual limit of four...a +4 bonus is pretty sweet for a low-CR critter.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

OK, so just the perimeter squares?  that's still 80 Tiny creatures.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Nope...just inside the target's space...creatures this size don't threaten from adjacent squares.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

aaaaiieeee  

so just remove that one line then?

 Swarmfighting (Ex): Dragon beetles can coordinate melee attacks against a single target and are adept at fighting side by side in close quarters. When a dragon beetle engages a Small or larger creature in melee, and at least one other dragon beetle occupies the target's space, it gains a +1 morale bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for each additional dragon beetle beyond the first that threatens the same target.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

I think we'll need to change "threatens the same target" to "occupies the same space", since they never threaten.


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## Mortis (Dec 19, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think we'll need to change "threatens the same target" to "occupies the same space", since they never threaten.



Agreed.   

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

OK, but i think "occupies the same space" is not quite right either.  it needs to encompass all creatures that can attack the target.  if say 2 dragon beetles are in one space, 3 are in another, 1 in another, and 4 in still another against a Large or larger target, they all should benefit from swarmfighting.

how about "occupies the target's space" as used elsewhere in the ability?


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## Mortis (Dec 19, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, but i think "occupies the same space" is not quite right either.  it needs to encompass all creatures that can attack the target.  if say 2 dragon beetles are in one space, 3 are in another, 1 in another, and 4 in still another against a Large or larger target, they all should benefit from swarmfighting.



That's why, I think, Shade says "space" and not "square" - two different things a creature's space may consist of more than one space. Of course I could be completely wrong.   



> how about "occupies the target's space" as used elsewhere in the ability?



That would work as well. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

Yes, occupies the target's space is what I intended.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

good deal.  let's work on the venom.



			
				City by the Silt Sea said:
			
		

> The second attack form is a stinger that delivers a dose of venom on a successful hit. The stinger's physical damage is negligible, and the poison only affects drakes, dragons, and dray. To others, the sting is only slightly more bothersome than a normal insect bite. It hurts a little at first, then itches, but produces no other harmful effects.
> 
> Dragon beetles produce venom that doesn't harm humans or demihumans. If a drake, dragon, or dray is hit by a dragon beetle's stinger, it must make a saving throw versus poison. A successful save inflicts 1d10 points of damage. A failed save causes 2d10 points of damage and mark the area around the insertion point with a burning red scar.






			
				Monstrous Compendium Annual Two said:
			
		

> The second attack is a stinger that delivers a dose of venom on a successful hit. The stinger's physical damage is negligible, and the poison only affects dragons and dragon-kin such as drakes, pseudodragons, and wyverns. To others, the sting is only slightly more bothersome than a normal insect bite. It hurts a little at first, then itches, but produces no other harmful effects.
> 
> Dragon beetles produce venom that doesn't harm humans or demihumans. If a dragon or dragon-kin is hit by a dragon beetle's stinger, it must make a saving throw versus poison. A successful save inflicts 1d10 points of damage. A failed save causes 2d10 points of damage and marks the area around the insertion point with a burning red scar.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

How's this?

Dragonbane Venom (Ex):  Dragon beetles secrete a venom that is only harmful to creatures of the dragon type.  Sting, Fortitude DC X, initial damage 1d10 hp, secondary damage 2d10 hp. The save DC is Constitution-based.

If you want, we could have its itchiness impose a -1 penalty on Dex-based skill and ability checks to non-dragons.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

naahhh... i don't think that's necessary.

you want to go straight damage for the venom or ability damage?  i'm actually fine with either.

i'm thinking +4 racial bonus to raise the DC up from 10.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

I think straight ability damage is probably better in this case.  With a high-HD dragon that somehow failed its save, it could lose some serious hps due to Con loss, even a point or two here or there.  

+4 racial bonus sounds great.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

posting what i have so far in homebrews.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2005)

I think it needs Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.


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## BOZ (Dec 19, 2005)

i agree!


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

are the stats basically ready?  am i missing anything besides flavor text (which i plan to write up later today)?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

I think flavor text is all that remains (other than nest leader stats).


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

well then, flavor text you have.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

Looks good.

CR 1/2?

Weighs "less than a pound"?


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

it might be big enough to weigh a pound.  stirges are.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

That's fine with me.


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

good deal!


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

was there anything else left to fix?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

Nope.  Ready for the nest leader?


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

yep.  was he bigger or just did more damage?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

> Nests are always led by larger, stronger dragon beetles. A nest leader is always 3 HD, with a stronger shell that provides AC 5. The bite of a nest leader causes 1d6 points of damage. Its venom inflicts 1d12 points of damage on dray and other draconic species (2d12 if a successful save is rolled).




Bigger, better AC, more damage.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

advance to Small, and give whatever else it needs?  of course, that may affect the swarmfighting ability...


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

Yep, good point.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

so is keeping it Tiny wiser, or shall we press on to Small?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

Tiny is probably wiser, but less daring.   It's your call.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

might as well play it safe and stick with Tiny.    what adjustments need to be made then?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp) 
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-11
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6-3) or stinger +3 melee (1d2-3 plus dragonbane venom)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6-3) or stinger +3 melee (1d2-3 plus dragonbane venom)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Dragonbane venom, swarmfighting
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 13, Con 11, Int ---, Wis 10, Cha 7
Skills: ---
Feats: Weapon Finesse (b)

Environment: Warm desert and underground
Organization: Nest (nest leader plus 2-16 dragon beetles)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: --
Level Adjustment: ---

A nest leader is x long, and weighs x pounds.

Dragonbane Venom (Ex): A dragon beetle secretes a venom from its stinger that is harmful only to creatures of the dragon type. To other creatures, it causes only a mild skin irritation and a burning red scar.

Injury, Fortitude DC 15, initial damage 1d12 hp, secondary damage 2d12 hp. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

might as well go 1 - 1/2 feet long.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

Sounds good.  CR 1?


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

probably, yeah.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

would a slight Con increase be in order for the nest leader?  it should definitely get a Str increase, as the text says they are stronger.  the base bite damage doesn't have to increase if the Str does.

here is the flavor text (got anything to add to that?):
Every dragon beetle nest is occupied by at least one larger, stronger dragon beetle.  This nest leader has a stronger shell, and its venom is more potent.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

Sure, a Con boost would be fine.

I can't think of anything else to say regarding flavor text.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

it's not super important.    how much of an increase to Str and Con would be appropriate?  +2?  +3?  +4?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

I think +2 is probably sufficient...they're still Tiny, after all.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

*Dragon Beetle, Nest Leader*
Tiny Vermin
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp) 
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-9
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6-2) or stinger +4 melee (1d2-2 plus dragonbane venom)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6-2) or stinger +4 melee (1d2-2 plus dragonbane venom)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Dragonbane venom, swarmfighting
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 13, Con 13, Int ---, Wis 10, Cha 7
Skills: ---
Feats: Weapon Finesse (b)

Environment: Warm desert and underground
Organization: Nest (1 plus 2-16 dragon beetles)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

Every dragon beetle nest is occupied by at least one larger, stronger dragon beetle.  This nest leader has a stronger shell, and its venom is more potent.

A nest leader is 1 1/2 feet long, and weighs 1 pound?.

Dragonbane Venom (Ex): A dragon beetle secretes a venom from its stinger that is harmful only to creatures of the dragon type. To other creatures, it causes only a mild skin irritation and a burning red scar.

Injury, Fortitude DC 15, initial damage 1d12 hp, secondary damage 2d12 hp. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

That about does it.  Not much to it, really.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

updating again - any issues remaining?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

Unless you want to change the weight, I believe we're finished.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

probably a weight change is fine - 1 1/2, or 2 pounds?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

Let's go 2...really thick carapace.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

heh... updating again one more time...


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

Looks good.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

great!


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## BOZ (Jun 30, 2006)

OK, time to restart another one!  

Ruins of Zhentil Keep

Ondonti

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Lawful good

NO. APPEARING: 10-60
ARMOR CLASS: 10 (6 with barkskin)
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 1 (clerics to 7th level)
THACO: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (see below)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Sanctuary, barkskin, free, immune to charm, + 1 save vs. poison (priest spells)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP	VALUE: 120
	Cleric, 1st	175
	Cleric, 2nd	270
	Cleric, 3rd	420
	Cleric, 4th	650
	Cleric, 5th	975
	Cleric, 6th	1,400
	Cleric, 7th	2,000

North of The Ride, in a secluded part of the Tortured Lands, dwells a race known as the ondonti, a close cousin of the orc. This race lives as peaceful farmers and gatherers, taking only what they need from the land to survive. In outward appearances, ondontis resemble orcs.

Scattered tribes of ondontis lived peaceful lives until a scouting party from Zhentil Keep stumbled across them in 1340 DR. Because ondontis live by a peaceful and collaborative philosophy, they were not prepared for treachery, and shortly after the initial meeting between Zhents and ondontis, the majority of the ondonti population, with the exception of one isolated tribe, was betrayed by the Zhents and kidnapped into slavery. Very few ondontis have since then escaped further raids. The greedy lords of Zhentil Keep view ondontis as superior slaves because their strength and nonviolent attitude make them superbly suited to lightly supervised manual labor.

Combat: Traditional ondonti culture is peaceful and contemplative. Most would sooner die than take another sentient creature's life, and they kill other creatures only as needed for food (or if the creatures are deemed insane or incurably diseased). However, the Zhentarim have brought up several young ondontis in an orcish environment, training them to be skilled killers (alignment LN to LE). These ondontis are still not as violent or abusive as orcs, but a few generations of violently indoctrinated ondontis could bring into being a deadly race of humanoids under the influence of the Zhentarim.

All ondontis can use the following spell-like abilities: sanctuary (on themselves) three times a day, barkskin once a day, purify   food & drink three times a day, and tree once a week. Ondontis also gain a + 1 bonus to their saving throws vs. poison and are immune to charm-type spells and spell-like abilities.

Adult ondontis (male and female) have Strength scores ranging from 17 to 19 and Constitution scores from 16 to 18. Ondontis, trained by the Zhentilar usually fight with either a bastard or two-handed sword, and can easily fight with either weapon and a shield. They dislike metal armor and don leather or studded leather when not using their natural barkskin ability. Since the first group of ondonti warriors is still learning its craft, it is uncertain how far they will progress as fighters.

Especially wise ondontis can become clerics of up to 7th level. Spells memorized by ondonti clerics are almost always curative and defensive in nature, as harmful spells are taboo. Priest ondontis have a minimum Wisdom of 16.

Habitat/Society: Ondontis revere Eldath, the Goddess of Peace and Quiet Places, and their culture attempts to embody the pacifist teachings of Eldath. Ondonti oral history recounts that "the Founders" brought 30 young ondontis to the lands they still consider theirs long ago, and laid down the teachings that provide the foundations of ondonti society in a cycle of tales called Tarek-Passar (the Way of Peace). One sage has theorized that the original ondontis were in fact infant orc orphans, brought from their lands and taught by a reclusive group of priests of Eldath.

Ondontis are nearly the opposite of ores: peaceful, land, and dependable. To the ondontis, peace, harmony with one's environment, and a full family life are what is important in life. Ondonti priests are revered and their guidance is followed because of their majestic wisdom and close relationship to Eldath.

Fourteen of the 15 ondonti tribes have been captured by raiding Zhentilar and taken to the Citadel of the Raven for use as slave labor and as breeding stock for an army of superior humanoids. The remaining ondonti tribe lives in extreme seclusion, employing the spells of several ondonti clerics to hide its members from further enslavement. It is rumored that a extraplanar servant sent by Eldath herself guards over her remaining children, while another seeks to free those who have been wrongly seized from their homeland.

Ecology. Ondontis reproduce at the same rate as orcs, but have attained a longer lifespan than orcs (60 years) as a result of internal cultural harmony and applied curative priestly magic. The mortality rate of infant ondontis is nearly nonexistent, due to close monitoring of pregnant ondontis and infants by the priesthood.


MCA3

Orc, Ondonti

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil (Ox5)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful good

NO. APPEARING: 10-60
ARMOR CLASS: 10 (6 with barkskin)
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 1 (clerics to 7th level)
THACO: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (see below)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Sanctuary, barkskin, tree, immune to charm, +1 save vs. poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP	VALUE: 120
	Cleric, 1st	175
	Cleric, 2nd	270
	Cleric, 3rd	420
	Cleric, 4th	650
	Cleric, 5th	975
	Cleric, 6th	975
	Cleric, 7th	2,000

The members of the race known as the ondonti are close cousins to the orcs. However, the ondontis live as peaceful farmers and gatherers, taking only what they need from the land to survive. In outward appearance, they resemble orcs, but they speak the common tongue and knowledge of the orc language is rare among them.

Combat: Traditional ondonti culture is peaceful and contemplative. Most would sooner die than take another sentient creature's life, and they kill other creatures only as needed for food (or if the creatures are deemed insane or incurably diseased).

All adult ondontis can use the following spell-like abilities: sanctuary (on themselves) three times a day, barkskin once a day, purify food & drink three times a day, and tree once a week. Ondontis also gain a +1 bonus to their saving throws vs. poison and are immune to charm-type spells and spell-like abilities.

Adult ondontis (male and female) have Strength scores ranging from 17 to 19 and Constitution scores from 16 to 18. Ondontis trained by the Zhentilar usually fight with either a bastard or two-handed sword, and can easily fight with either weapon and a shield. They dislike metal armor and don leather or studded leather when not using their natural barkskin ability.

Habitat/Society: Ondontis are nearly the opposite of orcs: peaceful, kind, and dependable. To the ondontis, peace, harmony with one's environment, and a full family life are what is important in life. Ondonti priests are revered and their guidance is followed because of their majestic wisdom and close relationship to their deity.

Especially wise ondontis can become clerics of up to 7th level. Spells memorized by ondonti clerics are almost always curative and defensive in nature, as harmful spells are taboo. Priest ondontis have a minimum Wisdom of 16.

In the world of Toril, ondontis dwell north of The Ride, in a secluded part of the Tortured Lands. They revere Eldath, the Goddess of Peace and Quiet Places, and their culture attempts to embody the pacifist teachings of that deity. Ondonti oral history recounts that "the Founders" brought 30 young ondontis to the lands they still consider theirs long ago, and laid down the teachings that provide the foundations of ondonti society in a cycle of tales called Tarek-Passar (the Way of Peace). One sage has theorized that the original ondontis were in fact infant orc orphans, brought from their   lands and taught by a reclusive group of priests of Eldath.

Fourteen of the 15 ondonti tribes have been captured by raiding Zhentilar and taken to the Citadel of the Raven for use as slave labor and as breeding stock for an army of superior humanoids. The remaining ondonti tribe lives in extreme seclusion, employing the spells of several ondonti clerics to hide its members from further enslavement. It is rumored that a extraplanar servant sent by Eldath herself guards over her remaining children, while another seeks to free those who have been wrongly seized from their homeland.

In the meantime, the Zhentarim have brought up several young ondontis in an orcish environment, training them to be skilled killers (alignment LN to LE). These ondontis are still not as violent or abusive as orcs, but a few generations of violently indoctrinated ondontis could bring into being a deadly race of humanoids under the influence of the Zhentarim. Since the first group of ondonti warriors is still learning its craft, it is uncertain how far they will progress as fighters.

Ecology: Ondontis reproduce at the same rate as orcs, but have attained a longer lifespan (60 years) as a result of internal cultural harmony and applied curative priestly magic. The mortality rate of infant ondontis is nearly nonexistent, due to close monitoring of mother ondontis and infants by the priesthood.

Scattered tribes of ondontis lived peaceful lives until a scouting party from Zhentil Keep stumbled across them in 1340 DR. Because ondontis live by a peaceful and collaborative philosophy, they were not prepared for treachery, and shortly after the initial meeting between Zhents and ondontis, the majority of the ondonti population, with the exception of one isolated tribe, was betrayed by the Zhents and kidnapped into slavery. Very few ondontis have since then escaped further raids. The greedy lords of Zhentil Keep view ondontis as superior slaves because their strength and nonviolent attitude make them superbly suited to lightly supervised manual labor.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 30, 2006)

as far as i can tell, this is the last thread which i had actually printed out, so the discussion is preserved.  after this one, we're starting from scratch. 



			
				Kwitchit 01-08-06 06:49 AM said:
			
		

> Maybe give them a favoured class of Cleric, with Domains of Healing and Community. Ondonti Clerics might be variants: Poor BAB and proficiency only with simple weapons, in return for the Plant domain as an extra domain.






			
				Shade 01-09-06 10:11 AM said:
			
		

> What of the following should we retain?
> Orc Traits (Ex) : Orcs possess the following racial traits.
> 
> +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
> ...






			
				GrayLinnorm 01-09-06 02:29 PM said:
			
		

> If the ondonti's favored class is cleric, obviously not -2 Wisdom.






			
				Shade 01-09-06 02:36 PM said:
			
		

> True. In fact, 1 can see a +2 Wisdom for them.






			
				GrayLinnorm 01-09-06 02:38 PM said:
			
		

> Since they're pacifists, the ondonti probably shouldn't get as much Strength as regular orcs (if we drop the Wisdom penalty, it should balance out). We can probably keep -2 Intelligence; they aren't any smarter than standard orcs.






			
				BOZ  01-09-06 06:07 PM said:
			
		

> not so sure about that.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Adult ondontis (male and female) have Strength scores ranging from 1 7 to 1 9 and Constitution scores from 16 to 18.






			
				Shade 01-09-06 06:12 PM said:
			
		

> I compared this to what orcs had in the 2E Monstrous Compendium, and ondontis are actually stronger than most orcs!






			
				BOZ 01-09-06 06:19 PM said:
			
		

> so let it be written; so let it be done.






			
				Shade 01-09-06 06:22 PM said:
			
		

> And its OK if their ability scores end up unbalanced...they'll already have at least a +1 level adjustment due to those spell-like abilities.






			
				BOZ 01-09-06 06:24 PM said:
			
		

> yep. backspin and sanctuary are pretty sweet, even if the times per day is limited!






			
				Shade 01-11-06 10:19 PM said:
			
		

> If our standard ondonti is to be a let-level warrior, it should be the Zhent variety, wearing studded leather and wielding a bastard sword. If we go with the peaceful ondonti, the standard ondonti should be a let-level cleric, with no armor and wielding something with non-warlike purposes, like a staff or sickle.






			
				BOZ 01-l3-06 12:33 AM said:
			
		

> if they are using any weapons at all, i could definitely see farm tools as appropriate...






			
				BOZ 01-14-06 11:39 AM said:
			
		

> Kwitchit said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				Shade 01-17-06 11:08 AM said:
			
		

> BOZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				BOZ 01-17-06 07:23 PM said:
			
		

> perhaps not.  but then, this is a pacifistic people so what do you expect?






			
				Shade 01-19-06 10:23 AM said:
			
		

> So....
> 
> Ondonti, 1st-Level Warrior
> Medium Humanoid (Orc)
> ...


----------



## Shade (Jun 30, 2006)

Let's give 'em a scythe, if for no other reason than that they are rarely used.    

Suggested Skills:  Concentration 1, Diplomacy 1, Escape Artist 1, Hide 1, Knowledge (religion) 1, Profession (farmer) 2, Sense Motive 1.

Suggested Feats:   Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Negotiator, or Stealthy


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 30, 2006)

and, well, scythes are wicked badass with that x4 crit multiplier.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 30, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> and, well, scythes are wicked badass with that x4 crit multiplier.



Too true, shame the 'maiming' magical enhancement is not in the SRD.   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jun 30, 2006)

taking it OT for a second... would you beleive that one character in our group actually had a maiming scythe?  good god, that thing was ridiculous.


----------



## Shade (Jun 30, 2006)

I'm embarassed to ask, but where's the maiming property found?


----------



## Shade (Jun 30, 2006)

Nevermind, I remember it now.  That's the "roll a die to randomly determine your crit multiplier" property from Miniatures Handbook.   Don't x4 weapons roll a d8?   Sheesh!


----------



## dhaga (Jun 30, 2006)

That IS ridiculous.  Whack, crit, 8!, dead.

Anyhow, I agree with giving these orcs scythes, for all the reasons listed above (minus maiming, of course  ).  Maybe we could add pitchforks as a secondary weapon (add an "or" line to the attack line); seems odd that *all* of them would have scythes, unless the only thing they harvest is wheat and grasses; and even then, a useful tool for picking up small bales: pitchfork.


----------



## dhaga (Jun 30, 2006)

Suggested Ability Scores: Str 19, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11

Strong and hearty, wise (mystical), personable and kind (but not a forceful presence).

I can't see anything wrong with Shade's Skills and Feats suggestion.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 30, 2006)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Maybe we could add pitchforks as a secondary weapon (add an "or" line to the attack line); seems odd that *all* of them would have scythes, unless the only thing they harvest is wheat and grasses; and even then, a useful tool for picking up small bales: pitchfork.




a note on pitchforks and other farming equipment can go in the flavor text, since they are generally not used as actual weapons for the most part.  

your ability score suggestions seem OK to me - anyone else?


----------



## Shade (Jun 30, 2006)

The scores look good to me as well.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 5, 2006)

well then, there we go.  



			
				Ruins of Zhentil Keep said:
			
		

> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Sanctuary, barkskin, free, immune to charm, + 1 save vs. poison (priest spells)
> 
> All ondontis can use the following spell-like abilities: sanctuary (on themselves) three times a day, barkskin once a day, purify food & drink three times a day, and tree once a week. Ondontis also gain a + 1 bonus to their saving throws vs. poison and are immune to charm-type spells and spell-like abilities.


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2006)

So...are we going with immunity to just charm spells, or immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities?   Or maybe just a bonus on saves?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 5, 2006)

is there anything that's immune to just charm spells?


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> is there anything that's immune to just charm spells?




Not that I can think of off the top of my head, but it's definitely feasible, since it is a specific subschool.  We could also go with immunity to enchantment spells and effects, which would add compulsions as well, but still leave 'em open to other mind-affecting abilities.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 5, 2006)

i definitely wouldn't want them immune to all mind-affecting effects; that's way too powerful for a 1-HD creature.  immune to all enchanment effects might still be a bit much.  we could look to elves; they are immune to sleep and have a +2 bonus against all enchantment magic.  perhaps we could give them immunity to charm subschool spells, and a +2 bonus vs. all enchanment magic, which would be similar but a bit better than elves?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 5, 2006)

also, do we want the bonus save vs. poisons to be +1?


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i definitely wouldn't want them immune to all mind-affecting effects; that's way too powerful for a 1-HD creature.




Agreed wholeheartedly.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> immune to all enchanment effects might still be a bit much.  we could look to elves; they are immune to sleep and have a +2 bonus against all enchantment magic.  perhaps we could give them immunity to charm subschool spells, and a +2 bonus vs. all enchanment magic, which would be similar but a bit better than elves?




Yeah, I like that!



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> also, do we want the bonus save vs. poisons to be +1?




I'd go +2, like dwarves.


----------



## Knight Otu (Jul 5, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> is there anything that's immune to just charm spells?



Either the half-fey or the feytouched from the Fiend Folio, can't remember which.


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2006)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Either the half-fey or the feytouched from the Fiend Folio, can't remember which.




I just looked 'em up:

Half-fey are immune to enchantment spells and effects. 

A feytouched is immune to all spells and effects with the mind-affecting descriptor.


----------



## Knight Otu (Jul 5, 2006)

Oh. Then ignore that post.


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2006)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Oh. Then ignore that post.




Well, at least it offers us several examples of degrees of immunity to such effects.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 5, 2006)

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day - purify food and drink, sanctuary (self only, DC X); 1/day - barkskin; 1/week - tree shape.  Caster level Xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2006)

Caster level = character level?  That's my vote.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 5, 2006)

sure; it won't affect much.    how would that be written?


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2006)

Here's how others do it:

Effective caster level equals the githyanki's class levels. 
Caster level equals the drow’s class levels.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 6, 2006)

works for me.    how about an "ondonti as characters" section?

i'll work on some flavor text today as i get the opportunity.

i'm thinking that maybe they should not start out with any weapon proficiencies, since they are pacifistic by nature (i.e., not even simple weapons).


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> works for me.    how about an "ondonti as characters" section?




How about a Homebrews first?    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm thinking that maybe they should not start out with any weapon proficiencies, since they are pacifistic by nature (i.e., not even simple weapons).




They wouldn't anyway, right, as it is granted by whatever class they take?   If they take commoner (which would probably be the most common as farmers), they'd only get proficiency with one simple weapon.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 6, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about a Homebrews first?




beat you to it!  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> They wouldn't anyway, right, as it is granted by whatever class they take?   If they take commoner (which would probably be the most common as farmers), they'd only get proficiency with one simple weapon.




good point!  that's fine.  and they can always weild something they are not proficient with clumsily (and i'm sure they would).


----------



## Mortis (Jul 6, 2006)

Isn't a creature automatically proficient with any weapon mentioned in its write-up?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jul 6, 2006)

it's not a problem if it is.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 6, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Isn't a creature automatically proficient with any weapon mentioned in its write-up?





			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it's not a problem if it is.



Sorry! That's a Monstrous Humanoid ability not a Humanoid one.   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 6, 2006)

you still there shade?


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2006)

I just stepped back in.   I am working on an "as characters" section.


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2006)

Ondonti As Characters
Ondonti leaders tend to be clerics (?). Ondonti clerics worship Eldath. An ondonti cleric has access to two of the following domains: Family, Good, Plant, Protection, and Water (favored weapon: net). 

 Ondonti possess the following racial traits.

+6(?) Strength, ? Dexterity, ? Constitution, ? Intelligence, +2(?) Wisdom,  ? Charisma. 
An ondonti's base land speed is 30 feet. 
Darkvision out to 60 feet. 
Special Qualities (see above): immunity to charm, poison resistance, spell-like abilities
Immunity to enchantment spells and effects, +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects, +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. (Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.) 
Automatic Languages: Common, Orc (?). Bonus Languages: ? (Orcs have Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon). 
Favored Class: Cleric.
Level Adjustment:  +X

The ondonti warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2006)

Did we ever determine ability score modifiers, rather than just scores?  Our current scores don't play well with the standard array.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 7, 2006)

i don't believe we had done anything regarding ability score modifiers vs. straight ability scores.


----------



## Shade (Jul 7, 2006)

Here's what we discussed:

Originally Posted by Shade 01-09-06 10:11 AM
What of the following should we retain? 
Orc Traits (Ex) : Orcs possess the following racial traits.

+4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayLinnorm 01-09-06 02:29 PM
If the ondonti's favored class is cleric, obviously not -2 Wisdom. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade 01-09-06 02:36 PM
True. In fact, 1 can see a +2 Wisdom for them. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayLinnorm 01-09-06 02:38 PM
Since they're pacifists, the ondonti probably shouldn't get as much Strength as regular orcs (if we drop the Wisdom penalty, it should balance out). We can probably keep -2 Intelligence; they aren't any smarter than standard orcs. 


Quote:
Originally Posted by BOZ 01-09-06 06:07 PM
not so sure about that.
Quote:

Quote:
Adult ondontis (male and female) have Strength scores ranging from 1 7 to 1 9 and Constitution scores from 16 to 18.  


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade 01-09-06 06:12 PM
I compared this to what orcs had in the 2E Monstrous Compendium, and ondontis are actually stronger than most orcs!  


Quote:
Originally Posted by BOZ 01-09-06 06:19 PM
so let it be written; so let it be done.   

So how about...

+6 Strength, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma?


----------



## dhaga (Jul 7, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> +6 Strength, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma?




Looks good to me.  Stronger than most Orcs, and wiser


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 7, 2006)

oddly enough, we have a Dex of 9, but get penalties to Int and Cha instead?


----------



## Shade (Jul 7, 2006)

Yeah, I'm not sure how we got those stats.  Nothing in the old entries indicates they have poorer than average Dexterity.  Nor does it suggest that they are smarter or more charismatic than regular orcs.   Definitely stronger, though, and probably wiser.


----------



## dhaga (Jul 7, 2006)

How's this?

For stats:
Str 19, Dex <same as orc>, Con 16, Int <same as orc>, Wis 14, Cha <same as orc>

Racial modifiers when needed:
+6 Strength, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2006)

Since it is a 1st-level warrior, we'll apply our racial modifiers to the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8).

So, we could go with:

Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
+6 Strength, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma

Giving us:
Str 19, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 6

Alternatively:
Str 13, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 8
+6 Strength, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma

Giving us:
Str 19, Dex 9, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 6


----------



## Mortis (Jul 10, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Alternatively:
> Str 13, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 8
> +6 Strength, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
> 
> ...




Surely that should be:
Str 19, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 6 

However, I slightly prefer option 1.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 10, 2006)

They may not work perfectly with the standard array.  The flavor text did say that adults have Con scores of 16-18.  their Int was from 8-10, so if we need to take a penalty there (I would make Int no lower than 9), we can do that.  I think we wanted to avoid a Cha penalty since they are Clerics by preference, which probably has something to do with where the Dex penalty came in.  I'm fine with say Cha 9 and Dex 10 or so.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Surely that should be:
> Str 19, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 6




Wouldn't that be Str 19, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 6?    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> They may not work perfectly with the standard array. The flavor text did say that adults have Con scores of 16-18. their Int was from 8-10, so if we need to take a penalty there (I would make Int no lower than 9), we can do that. I think we wanted to avoid a Cha penalty since they are Clerics by preference, which probably has something to do with where the Dex penalty came in. I'm fine with say Cha 9 and Dex 10 or so.




I just looked at the orc entry in the 2E MM.  I'm thinking that since they had no Con modifier listed or implied, the ondonti may need one to explain their suggested high Con scores.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 10, 2006)

well, we could keep them with (say) a Con of 12 (not a Cha of 6, please!) and give them a super bonus vs. disease, poison, and the like.  i think 2E dwarves used to get something like that.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2006)

Or, since we are already dealing with unbalanced stats, how about a +2 (or even +4) to Con?

How about this?

Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
+6 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom

Giving us:
Str 19, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8

Keep in mind this is just the stat block for a sample 1st-level warrior.   A cleric would obviously rearrange the array to better serve Wis and Cha.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 10, 2006)

well, i guess i could live with that, then.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2006)

LA +2 (unbalanced ability scores and SLAs beyond normal spellcasting of that level)?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 11, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that be Str 19, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 6?



       


> Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
> +6 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom



I'm fine with those (and the LA).

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 11, 2006)

mostly done with the stat blocks, and will update in homebrews when i get the chance.

Special Qualities: (darkvision or low-light vision?), spell-like abilities
Skills: 4
Suggested Skills: Concentration 1, Diplomacy 1, Escape Artist 1, Hide 1, Knowledge (religion) 1, Profession (farmer) 2, Sense Motive 1. (other skills to consider, perhaps: Craft, Handle Animal, Listen, Spot, Use Rope)
Feats: 1
Suggested Feats: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Negotiator, Skill Focus (Profession [farmer]), or Stealthy


----------



## Shade (Jul 11, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Special Qualities: (darkvision or low-light vision?), spell-like abilities
> Skills: 4
> Suggested Skills: Concentration 1, Diplomacy 1, Escape Artist 1, Hide 1, Knowledge (religion) 1, Profession (farmer) 2, Sense Motive 1. (other skills to consider, perhaps: Craft, Handle Animal, Listen, Spot, Use Rope)
> Feats: 1
> Suggested Feats: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Negotiator, Skill Focus (Profession [farmer]), or Stealthy




Low-light vision seems to make more sense for their lifestyle.

I think I like Iron Will the best for the feats...they seem stubbornly determined to be pacifists.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 11, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> ...they seem stubbornly determined to be pacifists.



We could always give them the noncombatant flaw. 
Which would give them another feat   

Assuming we can use the variant rules from Unearthed Arcana   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 11, 2006)

i don't know - would that be necessary?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 11, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't know - would that be necessary?



No, its not necessary, its more a PC thing to get extra feats - but as you can give creatures bonus feats... 

It just seemed appropriate, as a mechanical way to reinforce the flavor texts statement of them being extremely pacifist.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 11, 2006)

i'm fine with making a note of it, but i wouldn't want to impose such a thing on them.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 11, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm fine with making a note of it, but i wouldn't want to impose such a thing on them.



I wasn't really suggesting it - just thinking out loud. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jul 12, 2006)

updated!


----------



## Shade (Jul 12, 2006)

CR 1/2.

Sanctuary DC 10.

Updating the Ondonti as Characters section:

ONDONTI AS CHARACTERS
Ondonti leaders tend to be clerics. Ondonti clerics worship Eldath. An ondonti cleric has access to two of the following domains: Family, Good, Plant, Protection, and Water (favored weapon: net). 

Ondonti possess the following racial traits.
- +6 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. 
- An ondonti's base land speed is 30 feet. 
- Low-light vision. 
- Special Qualities (see above): spell-like abilities
- Immunity to charm spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. (*Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.)
- +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease and poison. (*Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.) 
- Automatic Languages: Common, Orc (?). Bonus Languages: ? (Orcs have Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon). 
- Favored Class: Cleric.
- Level Adjustment: +2

The ondonti warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

So, for bonus languages, should we stick with orc standards, or swap out Gnoll and Goblin for friendlier races like Elf, Halfling, or Gnome?

What should we do with Organization?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 12, 2006)

i think they should definitely have a language list separate from orcs.  in fact, it's debatable if they should even speak Orc.


----------



## Shade (Jul 12, 2006)

Any suggestions, then?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 12, 2006)

well, they're kind of reclusive.  the flavor text almost suggests that they would know Common as their native language.  Orc could be a bonus language, as perhaps would Dwarf and Halfling, and maybe also Sylvan and Celestial.


----------



## Shade (Jul 12, 2006)

Sounds good.  Sylvan and Celestial go well with the Eldath connection.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 13, 2006)

d'oh!  that's why i post every source i can find.  often enough, one contains information that the other doesn't.  



			
				MCA3 said:
			
		

> In outward appearance, they resemble orcs, but they speak the common tongue and knowledge of the orc language is rare among them.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 14, 2006)

that said... 

updated in homebrews!

how does it look now?


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2006)

Looks good.  All that seems to be missing is weight.  Since nothing seems to indicate that they aren't physically similar to orcs, and the fact that they are stronger, I'd make them at least 210 pounds like an orc.   Maybe a little more for increased muscle mass?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 14, 2006)

225 will do.  

i bet you're itching to get on to giving the Zhent-ondonti a stat block now, eh?


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> 225 will do.
> 
> i bet you're itching to get on to giving the Zhent-ondonti a stat block now, eh?




<weeps uncontrollably>

Please, for the love of all that is holy, unholy, and rilmani, NO MORE HUMANOIDS FOR AWHILE.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 14, 2006)

no no no...  just the stat block.  just a few alterations to the one we have.    unless it would just be sufficient to say that they are armed with bastard swords or whatnot.


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> no no no...  just the stat block.  just a few alterations to the one we have.    unless it would just be sufficient to say that they are armed with bastard swords or whatnot.




I think that would be sufficient.   I don't think they'd be different enough to warrant a separate statblock.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 14, 2006)

i had another look, and i think this is about the extent of relevant text: 
"Ondontis, trained by the Zhentilar usually fight with either a bastard or two-handed sword, and can easily fight with either weapon and a shield. They dislike metal armor and don leather or studded leather when not using their natural barkskin ability."


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2006)

My attempt at a rewrite:

Zhentilar-trained ondontis wield bastard swords or greatswords, often taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency in place of Iron Will in order to wield bastard swords in one hand and benefit from a shield in the other.   When not relying on their barkskin spell-like abilitiy, these ondontis don monstly non-metal armors such as leather or studded leather.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 14, 2006)

that will do nicely.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 17, 2006)

it has been updated.  you like?


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2006)

I like.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 17, 2006)

excellent!


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

Paring down the list...

MC14 - Fiend Folio, 2nd Edition
Mephit (Mist) - completed

*MCA1 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One, 1994*

Carrionette (RLMC3) - in Dragon #339
Dragon, Neutral, Jacinth (DR158) - moved to true dragons thread
Dragon, Neutral, Jade (DR158) - moved to true dragons thread
Dragon, Neutral, Pearl (DR158) - moved to true dragons thread
Plant, Vampire Moss - done for Dragon query

MCA2 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two, 1995
Beetle, Dragon - done
Dragon, Brine - moved to true dragons thread
Dragon-kin, Sea Wyrm
Leucrotta, Greater (CoS) - in 3E Waterdeep
Lich, Suel - Dragon #339
Mummy, Creature (Animal, Monster) - covered with mummified creature template

MCA3 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three, 1996
Dragon, Cerilian - moved to true dragons thread
Dragon, Neutral - Amber - done
Elf, Rockseer (NtB) - done
Orc, Ondonti (RoZK) - done

MCA4 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four, 1998
Dragon, Neutral - Moonstone Dragon - moved to true dragons thread
Dragon, Prismatic (DN51) - moved to true dragons thread
Golem, Maggot (Req) - Dragon #339
Mummy, Bog (DR238, Req) - various 3E sources


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2006)

i'm starting to update these threads now.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 16, 2006)

surprise!  


Gates of Firestorm Peak:

_Almost all the available floor space in this 20-foot by 30-foot room is filled by a tangled growth of thin yellow vines which slowly pulse like the revealed bloodways of a living creature. An odor of copper hangs in the moist, humid air. The veinlike tangle seems to be anchored in the stone floors and walls of the chamber. Fiery red pods grow upon the vines, most of them fist-sized; however a few have grown to the far larger dimensions of 5-fool-tall and 4-foot-wide. The only other item of note in this vein-choked room is the stone door on the far eastern wall._

The alien growth in this chamber has been dubbed a “blood sipper” by Madreus. The growth shares both animal and plant characteristics. If any of the blood sipper’s vines are stepped upon by the PCs attempting to navigate the room to access the far door (it is impossible not to do so, due to the density of the growth), the creature will react with deadly intent.

Three of the pods upon the creature are mature (all the others hold vestigial forms) and disgorge their contents in an attack upon intruders. The contents of the pod resemble huge, blind tadpoles whose mouths are lined with hundreds of needle-sharp teeth. The body of the “tadpole” gradually thins into a long, muscular tether which anchors each head to its own pod. Each of these hungry appendages also contains four clawed arms, equally spaced around the gnashing mouth. During an attack, the blood sipper disgorges its three mature appendages in a swift attack at the nearest PC(s). Successful attacks indicate that a head has anchored itself successfully with the help of its four clawed arms into a fleshy portion of its target. The biting mouth immediately begins to suck the blood of the target at the prodigious rate of 4 hp a round. The blood sucked is visibly transferred down the tether-like body of the creature to the pod. Attacks directed against the tether can sever it if a total of 10 points of damage are delivered; however, each head can act independently and continues to attack PCs in the vicinity. It is necessary to kill each head individually in order to end the threat, as the heads are able to propel themselves by their arms alone if they become separated from their pods. This is actually a method of propagation which the blood sipper relies upon to spread its progeny. Once all the heads are destroyed, the remaining veinlike vines and immature pods represent no further threat.

• PLAYER’S OPTION Considerations: The tethered heads of the blood sipper threaten 20 feet (4 squares) with their reach. The initial attack by a head springing from a pod delivers a d10 knockdown die with the force of its disgorgement from the pod. All attacks by the heads occur in the last phase of the combat round.

Blood sipper AC 1; MV 0 (vine) or 15 (pods); HD 20 (vine) or 4 (pod); hp 120 (vine) or 29 each (pod); THAC0 17 (pod); #AT 3 (one per pod); Dmg 1d8 (bite); SA suck blood (4 hp per round): SD damage to pods does not harm vine & vice versa, severing tether does not harm pods; SW salt; SZ G (600+ sq. ft.); ML fearless (20); Int non- (0); AL N; XP 175 (pod) or 1,000 (vine).


Monstrous Compendium Annual 4:

Bloodsipper (Far Realm) 
CLIMATEFTERRAIN: Special
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Plant
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 
ARMOR CLASS: 1 (2—12 pod denizens)
MOVEMENT: 0 vine (pod denizen: 15)
HIT DICE: 20 vine (pod denizen: 4)
THACO: Nil (pod denizen: 17)
NO. OF ATFACKS: 2—12 (1 attack per mature pod)
DAMAGE/AflEACK: 1d8 + blood drain
SPECIAL ATfACKS: Blood drain, pod denizens
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Vulnerable to salt (2d4/handful)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (600+ sq. IL) vine, S pod
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 1,000 (vine) 
175 (pod denizen)

The bloodsipper’s presence is marked from afar—up to 100 feet under still conditions—by a lingering scent of copper in air. A bloodsipper is an expansive, tangled growth of thin yellow vines that resemble arteries, slowly pulsing with a languid, blood-like fluid. Along the vines, fiery red pods sprout profusely like sickly fruit. Most pods are fist-sized; however, a few have grown to the menacing dimensions of four or more feet in diameter; all have a leathery texture. 

Combat: The small growths represent immature pods, and grow along the periphery of the vine’s domain. Cutting a small pod open releases a gagging stench (save vs. paralyzation or suffer a —4 penalty to all actions, checks, and saves for one turn due to nausea), and reveals what appears to he some sort of vestigial organ secured to the interior base of the pod by a coiled organic cord. Those who have not encountered the larger pods may not guess that the vestigial organ is really an immature form of the _pod denizen_, although a small mouth filled with needle-like teeth can be discovered by anyone tenacious enough to dig around the revealed gooey mass with a dagger point or similar tool. 

If any vine of the bloodsipper is stepped on by those attempting to navigate its sprawls (the density of the vine growth makes this a certainty for those moving normally), the mature pods at the center of the growth react with deadly instinct (usually between 2 and 12 pods). These large pods disgorge their contents with a wet pop. The content of a pod resembles a huge. blind tadpole whose mouth is lined with hundreds of needle- sharp teeth. The head of the “tadpole” gradually thins into a long, muscular tether that anchors each striking head to its own pod. Each head has four clawed arms, equally spaced around the gnashing mouth. A pod denizen can attack within a 20-foot radius of its pod.

A successful attack means that a head has anchored itself into a fleshy part of its target with the help of its four clawed arms. The biting mouth immediately begins to drain blood from the target at the prodigious rate of 4 points of damage per round. The blood is visibly transferred down the tether-like body of the creature to the pod. Attacks directed against the tether can sever it if a total of 10 points of damage is delivered to the tether, however, each head can act independently, and continues to attack foes even after the tether has been cut. Each head must be individually killed to end its threat, as the heads propel themselves by their arms alone if separated from their pods. Once all the heads are destroyed, the remaining artery-like vines and immature pods represent no further threat, and can he dealt with or navigated safely. Salt in quantity makes a vine or head pull away convulsively; a handful inflicting 2d4 points of damage (much as holy water affects undead). 

Habitat/Society: The yellow vine of a bloodsipper is always anchored in stone floors and walls with tough rootlets, making it difficult to dislodge. These overactive growths were dubbed “bloodsippers” by the wizard who encountered the first specimen. It seems likely that bloodsippers did not evolve from precursor organisms naturally. Substantial evidence supports the contention that these growths spring from once-natural plant life that has grown too long within the influence of portals leading to the Far Realm, a strange dimension where reality is subjective and madness is the rule. This realm has been dubbed the Far Realm by those few who’ve become aware of it and profess to study it. Suffice it to say that bloodsippers and similar creatures are truly alien to the Prime Material plane. 

Ecology: Bloodsippers share both animal and plant characteristics. Like plants, they grow from a “seed,” spreading vines in all directions so as to cover as much surface area as possible. Unlike plants, a bloodsipper has no need for sunlight. Instead, its pods have specialized to “harvest” the blood of living organisms that come too near.  Blood seems sufficient to nourish bloodsippers indefinitely. 

Bloodsippers propagate by intentionally severing the tether of one of its mature pods, which crawls off under its own power as far as it can before it digs into the earth to germinate, the seed of another bloodsipper growth. This is usually a matter of a few hundred yards.

—From Gates of Firestorm Peak, #9533


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2006)

some preliminary stats for the bloodsipper:

*Bloodsipper*
Colossal Plant (Extraplanar?)
Hit Dice: 20d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 0 ft
Armor Class: X (-8 size, +42 natural), touch X, flat- footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X +X melee (X+X)
Full Attack: X +X melee (X+X)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft
Special Attacks: blood drain, pod denizens
Special Qualities: low-light vision, plant traits, vulnerability to salt
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex ---?, Con X, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: ---


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

Woo-hoo!

Hmmm...they don't seem to be truly extraplanar, since they were native plants warped by the Far Realm.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2006)

fair enough.


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

Gates of Firestorm Peak said:
			
		

> PLAYER’S OPTION Considerations: The tethered heads of the blood sipper threaten 20 feet (4 squares) with their reach. The initial attack by a head springing from a pod delivers a d10 knockdown die with the force of its disgorgement from the pod. All attacks by the heads occur in the last phase of the combat round.




Free bull rush or trip attempt with initial disgorgement?



			
				Monstrous Compendium Annual 4 said:
			
		

> The small growths represent immature pods, and grow along the periphery of the vine’s domain. Cutting a small pod open releases a gagging stench (save vs. paralyzation or suffer a —4 penalty to all actions, checks, and saves for one turn due to nausea), and reveals what appears to he some sort of vestigial organ secured to the interior base of the pod by a coiled organic cord. Those who have not encountered the larger pods may not guess that the vestigial organ is really an immature form of the _pod denizen_, although a small mouth filled with needle-like teeth can be discovered by anyone tenacious enough to dig around the revealed gooey mass with a dagger point or similar tool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Free bull rush or trip attempt with initial disgorgement?




sure, if by "free" you mean no AoO.    hey, if you've looked at the Player's Option rules, did you notice how many 3E things were introduced experimentally?  for example, "20 feet (4 squares) with their reach" sounds a lot more like 3E than 2E.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Tremorsense and 20-foot reach?




sure.    note my comment above regarding 20-foot reach...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Attach and blood drain?




that's what i was thinking!  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Follow the giant squid and kraken rules for severing parts?




like that, or like the hydra, yeah.


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> sure, if by "free" you mean no AoO.    hey, if you've looked at the Player's Option rules, did you notice how many 3E things were introduced experimentally?  for example, "20 feet (4 squares) with their reach" sounds a lot more like 3E than 2E.




Indeed!  And yes, that's an experimental system.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sure.    note my comment above regarding 20-foot reach...




Oh yeah...



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that's what i was thinking!




Great minds and whatnot.    




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> like that, or like the hydra, yeah.




Yeah, there's another.


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2006)

Attach (Ex): If a bloodsipper hits with a bite attack, it uses the four clawed arms that surround the maw to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached bloodsipper is effectively grappling its prey. The bloodsipper loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of X, but holds on with great tenacity. 

An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.

Blood Drain (Ex): A bloodsipper drains blood, dealing 1d4(?) points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. _Once it has dealt X points of Constitution damage, the pod denizen detaches to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the bloodsipper's appetite has been sated, the bloodsipper detaches and seeks a new target._

(We might not need the italicized parts for this creature).


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## BOZ (Dec 29, 2006)

now i'm not so sure that the bloodsipper loses its Dexterity bonus to AC when attached, since that's just a tiny part of the creature.

and you're right; i'll have to read it again, but i don't doubt that the bloodsipper keeps on sippin.


----------



## Shade (Dec 29, 2006)

Yeah, it probably shouldn't lose its Dex bonus in this case.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 4, 2007)

do you also figure that the sipper should get temporary hp from blood drain?


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2007)

Probably.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 10, 2007)

OK, here’s a few examples of how others have converted the bloodsipper previously:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6508592&postcount=11
http://209.221.178.225/showpost.php?p=5625667&postcount=423
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77416

One thing we need to determine is whether or not the pod denizens should have separate stats from the bloodsipper itself.  I’m far less set on the idea of separate stats than I was with the gray philosopher.     I can see reasons for going either way.  (Notice that Psychotic Jim’s conversion above figures separate stats for the pod denizen, while the two conversions from the WotC boards do not.)


Here are the pertinent combat stats from MCA4, which we need to figure out how to use and in what way:

MOVEMENT: 0 vine (pod denizen: 15)
HIT DICE: 20 vine (pod denizen: 4)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2—12 (1 attack per mature pod)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8 + blood drain
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Blood drain, pod denizens
SIZE: S pod

The small growths represent immature pods, and grow along the periphery of the vine’s domain. Cutting a small pod open releases a gagging stench (save vs. paralyzation or suffer a —4 penalty to all actions, checks, and saves for one turn due to nausea), and reveals what appears to he some sort of vestigial organ secured to the interior base of the pod by a coiled organic cord. Those who have not encountered the larger pods may not guess that the vestigial organ is really an immature form of the _pod denizen_, although a small mouth filled with needle-like teeth can be discovered by anyone tenacious enough to dig around the revealed gooey mass with a dagger point or similar tool. 

If any vine of the bloodsipper is stepped on by those attempting to navigate its sprawls (the density of the vine growth makes this a certainty for those moving normally), the mature pods at the center of the growth react with deadly instinct (usually between 2 and 12 pods). These large pods disgorge their contents with a wet pop. The content of a pod resembles a huge, blind tadpole whose mouth is lined with hundreds of needle- sharp teeth. The head of the “tadpole” gradually thins into a long, muscular tether that anchors each striking head to its own pod. Each head has four clawed arms, equally spaced around the gnashing mouth. A pod denizen can attack within a 20-foot radius of its pod.

A successful attack means that a head has anchored itself into a fleshy part of its target with the help of its four clawed arms. The biting mouth immediately begins to drain blood from the target at the prodigious rate of 4 points of damage per round. The blood is visibly transferred down the tether-like body of the creature to the pod. Attacks directed against the tether can sever it if a total of 10 points of damage is delivered to the tether, however, each head can act independently, and continues to attack foes even after the tether has been cut. Each head must be individually killed to end its threat, as the heads propel themselves by their arms alone if separated from their pods. Once all the heads are destroyed, the remaining artery-like vines and immature pods represent no further threat, and can he dealt with or navigated safely. 

Salt in quantity makes a vine or head pull away convulsively; a handful inflicting 2d4 points of damage (much as holy water affects undead). 

The yellow vine of a bloodsipper is always anchored in stone floors and walls with tough rootlets, making it difficult to dislodge.


----------



## Shade (Jan 10, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> One thing we need to determine is whether or not the pod denizens should have separate stats from the bloodsipper itself.  I’m far less set on the idea of separate stats than I was with the gray philosopher.     I can see reasons for going either way.  (Notice that Psychotic Jim’s conversion above figures separate stats for the pod denizen, while the two conversions from the WotC boards do not.)




I'm strongly opposed to making them separate creatures.  It's a clunky mechanic, and one that I think we should only use if we have absolutely no other option.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 10, 2007)

this thing is a bit clunky all around.    OK, i'm fine with going with the pod denizen as just an extension of the main plant.  however, some things to keep in mind.  first of all, in 2E the pod denizen was previously given its own HD (4).  also, the pod denizen is really just an immature bloodsipper, which (when the tether is severed), will grow up to become an adult.  the text does state that the heads continue to attack when severed.

so, there are some ways we can go with this.  avoiding Psychotic Jim's approach for now, i look at the two conversions from the WotC boards and each person handled it differently.  in "The Slayer of Heroes"'s version, the pod denizen is relegated entirely into flavor text, with its stats assumed fully into the plant, and suggestions given on how to deal with the denizen should its pod become severed.  for the Seraph of Babel's version (this is the one who was donig conversions for Planewalker.com, BTW), the denizen is handled in a similar manner, although there is a special attack given to explain how a severed denizen functions.

of course, we could always do something entirely different from those, instead. 

here is a pic of the pod denizen (don't really have a full pic of the plant itself):


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> for the Seraph of Babel's version (this is the one who was donig conversions for Planewalker.com, BTW), the denizen is handled in a similar manner, although there is a special attack given to explain how a severed denizen functions.




I'm leaning towards this approach.


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## BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

OK then, so it should have an Attack line something like this:

Attack: Bite +X melee (1d8+X plus attach)
Full Attack: 2-12 bites +X melee (1d8+X plus attach)

And while I’d certainly like to say something in the combat text, especially about severing the tether, we can also start with this:

Pod Denizen (Ex): A bloodsipper makes bite attacks using its pod denizens, and can make up to one bite attack per round for every pod denizen it currently has.  Once all of its pod denizens are detached, however, a bloodsipper cannot attack. A pod denizen can detach a mature pod as a move action.

A detached pod denizen uses the same statistics as the base plant, except that it has (HD, Str, Dex, etc whatever).



I want to start getting back into various features of this creature, but it’s getting late so I’ll catch up with the rest later.  

OK, Shade mentioned early on that these plants are probably not extraplanar, as it seems they are natural plants mutated by Far Realms energy.



			
				GoFP said:
			
		

> If any of the blood sipper’s vines are stepped upon by the PCs attempting to navigate the room to access the far door (it is impossible not to do so, due to the density of the growth), the creature will react with deadly intent.






			
				MCA4 said:
			
		

> If any vine of the bloodsipper is stepped on by those attempting to navigate its sprawls (the density of the vine growth makes this a certainty for those moving normally), the mature pods at the center of the growth react with deadly instinct (usually between 2 and 12 pods).




Note that while this initially sounds like tremorsense, it really isn’t.  This ability to notice anything moving in the room is kind of more like blindsense mixed with tremorsense, except that this is due physical contact – and anything moving in a bloodsipper’s area is automatically detected because it’s touching the bloodsipper’s vines.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Note that while this initially sounds like tremorsense, it really isn’t.  This ability to notice anything moving in the room is kind of more like blindsense mixed with tremorsense, except that this is due physical contact – and anything moving in a bloodsipper’s area is automatically detected because it’s touching the bloodsipper’s vines.




We can modify those abilities to come up with something.  How's this for a start?

Sensory Vines (Ex):  A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with one of its sprawling vines.   A creature that succeeds on a DC X Spot (?) check can attempt to avoid the vines, but must move at half (?) speed.


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## BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

that seems like a good start - might want to define contact with the vines as "being within the bloodsipper's space".    plus, state that creatures can move around in its space freely, but as something similar to the entangle spell...?  keep in mind that it's 600 sq ft.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Probably good ideas for all that.

Alternatively to the entangle spell, just state that it functions as either light or heavy undergrowth:

Undergrowth: Vines, roots, and short bushes cover much of the ground in a forest. A space covered with light undergrowth costs 2 squares of movement to move into, and it provides concealment. Undergrowth increases the DC of Tumble and Move Silently checks by 2 because the leaves and branches get in the way. Heavy undergrowth costs 4 squares of movement to move into, and it provides concealment with a 30% miss chance (instead of the usual 20%). It increases the DC of Tumble and Move Silently checks by 5. Heavy undergrowth is easy to hide in, granting a +5 circumstance bonus on Hide checks. Running and charging are impossible. Squares with undergrowth are often clustered together. Undergrowth and trees aren’t mutually exclusive; it’s common for a 5-foot square to have both a tree and undergrowth.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

light undergrowth is probably sufficient, though we should add that it does not grant concealment against the bloodsipper - in fact, it can see victims even better.  

so, how about this modification:

Sensory Vines (Ex): A bloodsipper's vines fill its space.  A creature can move through a bloodsipper's space freely, although its vines act as light undergrowth, with the exception that creatures in the bloodsipper's space do not gain concealment against the bloodsipper.  A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space, although a creature that succeeds on a DC X Spot (?) check can attempt to avoid contact with the vines, but must move at half (?) speed.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Lookin' good.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK then, so it should have an Attack line something like this:
> 
> Attack: Bite +X melee (1d8+X plus attach)
> Full Attack: 2-12 bites +X melee (1d8+X plus attach)
> ...




how about that part?


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> how about that part?




I think it's a good start.   I'm not sure about the "2-12 bites" on the attack lines, though.  It might be better to assume the max, and let the pod denizen ability handle the loss of them.  "2-12" makes it sound like "roll 2d6" for the number of bite attacks.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

fair enough.  how's this blurb for combat text:

A typical bloodsipper can start an encounter with as many as 12 pod denizens.  It can only attack as many foes as are within reach of its pod denizens.

here's what im imagining - let's say that if a bloodsipper is 600 square feet, its dimensions could be somewhere between 24 x 24 and 25 x 25 correct?  it might just be easier to figure that a bloodsipper would be oridinary Colossal and therefore 30 x 30.  so, it fills up a 30' square room.  maybe every, i don't know, 4 or 5 squares or so is a new pod.  that way a bloodsipper could attack every target in the room (since pods have 20' reach) but the plant could only attack with so many pods.  if they weren't well-spaced, say they were more clustered together, it could get more attacks on some targets and fewer attacks on others.

i think we need to figure out how to get all of info into the text somehow.  the pod denizens are stationary until the tethers are severed - of course, once a tether is severed the denizen becomes independent and needs to find a place to try to grow a new plant.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

That sounds like a good approach to help simplify things.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 27, 2007)

OK, here is how our combat section is beginning to shape up at the moment.  let me know what you think of that.

COMBAT
A typical bloodsipper can start an encounter with as many as 12 pod denizens.  Each pod denizen is Medium sized with a reach of 20 feet, and the pod denizens are found roughly evenly throughout a bloodsipper’s space.  A bloodsipper can only attack as many foes as are within reach of its pod denizens.  While tethered to a bloodsipper, pod denizens are stationary and cannot move independently of the plant; once a tether is severed, that pod denizen is permanently separated from its bloodsipper and becomes a separate creature.

An opponent can attack a bloodsipper’s pod denizen tethers with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A bloodsipper’s tethers have 10 hit points each. If a pod denizen currently grappling a target is attached to a bloodsipper with the tether that is being attacked, another pod denizen usually makes the bloodsipper's attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a bloodsipper’s tethers deals (X) points of damage to the creature.  The creature regrows severed tethers in (X) days.

Attach (Ex): If a bloodsipper hits with a bite attack, it uses the four clawed arms that surround the maw to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached bloodsipper is effectively grappling its prey.

An attached bloodsipper can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached bloodsipper through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the bloodsipper.

Blood Drain (Ex): A bloodsipper drains blood, dealing 1d4(?) points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim.  On each successful attack, the bloodsipper gains 5 temporary hit points(?).

Pod Denizen (Ex): A bloodsipper makes bite attacks using its pod denizens, and can make up to one bite attack per round for every pod denizen it currently has. Once all of its pod denizens are separated from it, however, a bloodsipper cannot attack. A pod denizen can sever the tether of a mature pod as a move action.

A detached pod denizen uses the same statistics as the base plant, except that it has (4 HD, Str, Dex, etc whatever, speed 40 feet).

Sensory Vines (Ex): A bloodsipper's vines fill its space. A creature can move through a bloodsipper's space freely—although. its vines act as light undergrowth, with the exception that creatures in the bloodsipper's space do not gain concealment against the bloodsipper. A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space, although a creature that succeeds on a DC X Spot (?) check can attempt to avoid contact with the vines, but must move at half (?) speed.


OK, here's some additional stuff about the creature to consider:



			
				Gates of Firestorm Peak said:
			
		

> The initial attack by a head springing from a pod delivers a d10 knockdown die with the force of its disgorgement from the pod. All attacks by the heads occur in the last phase of the combat round.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Free bull rush or trip attempt with initial disgorgement?






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sure, if by "free" you mean no AoO.




we'll see how we can fit that in there.    it would only apply to the first attack by any given pod in an encounter.



			
				Gates of Firestorm Peak said:
			
		

> SD damage to pods does not harm vine & vice versa, severing tether does not harm pods




good point, can't forget to mention those...



			
				MCA4 said:
			
		

> Cutting a small pod open releases a gagging stench (save vs. paralyzation or suffer a —4 penalty to all actions, checks, and saves for one turn due to nausea)




OK, so the immature pods have a stankiness to them, but the text doesn't seem to say anything about whether the mature attacking pods have this feature.



			
				MCA4 said:
			
		

> Salt in quantity makes a vine or head pull away convulsively; a handful inflicting 2d4 points of damage (much as holy water affects undead).




definitely need to work this one in!  



			
				MCA4 said:
			
		

> The yellow vine of a bloodsipper is always anchored in stone floors and walls with tough rootlets, making it difficult to dislodge.




probably ought to give the bloodsipper immunity to being tripped, knocked down, etc.  i know we gave this ability to the draknor, but i could swear i've seen it somewhere else recently as well.


----------



## Shade (Feb 27, 2007)

Anything I didn't directly comment on I agree with.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> An opponent can attack a bloodsipper’s pod denizen tethers with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A bloodsipper’s tethers have 10 hit points each. If a pod denizen currently grappling a target is attached to a bloodsipper with the tether that is being attacked, another pod denizen usually makes the bloodsipper's attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a bloodsipper’s tethers deals (X) points of damage to the creature.  The creature regrows severed tethers in (X) days.




10 points of damage from severing?

Both krakens and squids regrow severed bits in 1d10+10 days.  I think that could work here as well.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Blood Drain (Ex): A bloodsipper drains blood, dealing 1d4(?) points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim.  On each successful attack, the bloodsipper gains 5 temporary hit points(?).




1d4 Con/5 temp hps sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Sensory Vines (Ex): A bloodsipper's vines fill its space. A creature can move through a bloodsipper's space freely—although. its vines act as light undergrowth, with the exception that creatures in the bloodsipper's space do not gain concealment against the bloodsipper. A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space, although a creature that succeeds on a DC X Spot (?) check can attempt to avoid contact with the vines, but must move at half (?) speed.




Treating as light undergrowth and moving at half speed are redundant.  We could either drop the slower speed to avoid, or increase it to equivalent to heavy undergrowth (4 squares of movement per space, more difficult Move Silently and Tumble checks).  DC 15 for the check?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, so the immature pods have a stankiness to them, but the text doesn't seem to say anything about whether the mature attacking pods have this feature.




We could retcon them to give it to the mature pods, or otherwise just mention it in the flavor text, as it wouldn't have a combat effect.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> definitely need to work this one in!




We could modify this ability from the 3E abishai...

Vulnerability to Holy Water (Ex): Abishai take 2d4 damage from a flask of holy water, or 1 point of damage from a splash of holy water.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> probably ought to give the bloodsipper immunity to being tripped, knocked down, etc.  i know we gave this ability to the draknor, but i could swear i've seen it somewhere else recently as well.




Here's one from MMIII...

Can't Be Tripped (Ex): A seryulin's body shape makes it impossible for a foe to trip the creature. Any trip attempts against the seryulin automatically fail, as if the opponent had failed to win the opposed Strength check.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 28, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Anything I didn't directly comment on I agree with.




understood. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> 10 points of damage from severing?
> 
> Both krakens and squids regrow severed bits in 1d10+10 days.  I think that could work here as well.




OK, the GoFP writup mentions that severing the tether does not harm the _pod_, but i don't think it said anything about whether it harms the bloodsipper or not.  i'd say that yes, it does harm the main plant.  10 damage seems like a lot, even if the plant should have more than enough hp to take it.  yes, no?

regrowth speed sounds fine.

maybe we should also add a line somewhere that says any attacks on the pod itself deals no damage to the main plant?  any predecent for that?  also, killing the main plant would just set any living mature pods free, since they are just about ready to go anyway.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Treating as light undergrowth and moving at half speed are redundant.  We could either drop the slower speed to avoid, or increase it to equivalent to heavy undergrowth (4 squares of movement per space, more difficult Move Silently and Tumble checks).  DC 15 for the check?




i'm not entirely sure there should be a check for avoiding the plant's notice, but i could see why it's only fair to include one.  DC 15 seems small, especially given what the CR is likely to be.  if it is small like that, it would absolutely have to be a per-round per-character check.  i'd say make it half-half (1/4) speed to avoid notice, or make the check higher (20?) to make it more of a challenge to sneak past.

i thought light undergrowth was fine, but heavy might be better.  what do you think?

also, for the knockdown on initial attack, how can we implement that?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We could retcon them to give it to the mature pods, or otherwise just mention it in the flavor text, as it wouldn't have a combat effect.




i'm thinking of favoring that as flavor text.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We could modify this ability from the 3E abishai...
> 
> Vulnerability to Holy Water (Ex): Abishai take 2d4 damage from a flask of holy water, or 1 point of damage from a splash of holy water.




do we have a precedent for using grainy stuff like salt as a splash weapon?  if not, would it be enough to say that a handful of salt can be throw and that works like throwing a flask?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Here's one from MMIII...
> 
> Can't Be Tripped (Ex): A seryulin's body shape makes it impossible for a foe to trip the creature. Any trip attempts against the seryulin automatically fail, as if the opponent had failed to win the opposed Strength check.




here's what we gave the draknor:
Immoveable (Ex): A draknor anchors itself to the walls of its lair using 12 rock-hard extensions.  This renders a draknor immune to bull rush and trip attacks.

i think we should combine the two ideas; the bloodsipper's immovability probably has more to do with anchoring itself than its body shape (though that does play a part), but some of the seryulin's language is better.


----------



## Shade (Feb 28, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, the GoFP writup mentions that severing the tether does not harm the _pod_, but i don't think it said anything about whether it harms the bloodsipper or not.  i'd say that yes, it does harm the main plant.  10 damage seems like a lot, even if the plant should have more than enough hp to take it.  yes, no?




I borrowed that amount from the kraken, which has similiar HD.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> maybe we should also add a line somewhere that says any attacks on the pod itself deals no damage to the main plant?  any predecent for that?  also, killing the main plant would just set any living mature pods free, since they are just about ready to go anyway.




We could do that.  We could modify this from the roper:

"A strand has 10 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking a roper’s strand does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the strand is currently attached to a target, the roper takes a –4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing a strand deals no damage to a roper."



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm not entirely sure there should be a check for avoiding the plant's notice, but i could see why it's only fair to include one.  DC 15 seems small, especially given what the CR is likely to be.  if it is small like that, it would absolutely have to be a per-round per-character check.  i'd say make it half-half (1/4) speed to avoid notice, or make the check higher (20?) to make it more of a challenge to sneak past.




DC 20 sounds fine, and simpler.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i thought light undergrowth was fine, but heavy might be better.  what do you think?




I think light is fine in general; I was suggesting that someone intenionally avoiding the tendrils (and thus detection) must treat it as heavy undergrowth.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> also, for the knockdown on initial attack, how can we implement that?




How's this?

Startling Strike (Ex):  If a bloodsipper catches an opponent flat-footed with its first attack in a given encounter, it may make a free bull rush attempt against the foe.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> do we have a precedent for using grainy stuff like salt as a splash weapon?  if not, would it be enough to say that a handful of salt can be throw and that works like throwing a flask?




Yes.  Feather powder in BoVD and sleep powder in a 3.5 Dragon mag are both splash weapons.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> here's what we gave the draknor:
> Immoveable (Ex): A draknor anchors itself to the walls of its lair using 12 rock-hard extensions.  This renders a draknor immune to bull rush and trip attacks.
> 
> i think we should combine the two ideas; the bloodsipper's immovability probably has more to do with anchoring itself than its body shape (though that does play a part), but some of the seryulin's language is better.




How's this?

Immoveable  (Ex): A bloodsipper anchors itself to the ground using its numerous roots.  This makes it impossible for a foe to bull rush or trip the creature. Any bull rush or trip attempts against the bloodsipper automatically fail, as if the opponent had failed to win the opposed Strength check.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 28, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I borrowed that amount from the kraken, which has similiar HD.




Ok, but keep in mind that a kraken's appendages are probably more a part of the creature than a bloodsipper's tethers would be - plus, if you sever all potential 12 of a bloodsipper's tethers, 10 points from each might be enough to kill the plant on its own.    i think 5 points should cover it.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We could do that.  We could modify this from the roper:
> 
> "A strand has 10 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking a roper’s strand does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the strand is currently attached to a target, the roper takes a –4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing a strand deals no damage to a roper."




i was thinking more of attacks on a pod (from foes who don't recognize that the pod denizen is tethered to the bloodsipper, attacking it as a separate creature), rather than sunder attempts.  how should we handle that, when a denizen is still tethered?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> DC 20 sounds fine, and simpler.




how does this sound?  that sentence probably needs to be broken up a bit.

A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space, although a creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but must make a new check each round.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I think light is fine in general; I was suggesting that someone intenionally avoiding the tendrils (and thus detection) must treat it as heavy undergrowth.




if you can figure out a way to work that into the above bit, then OK.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> Startling Strike (Ex):  If a bloodsipper catches an opponent flat-footed with its first attack in a given encounter, it may make a free bull rush attempt against the foe.




great - i'll take it.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yes.  Feather powder in BoVD and sleep powder in a 3.5 Dragon mag are both splash weapons.




thanks, i'll look a those to see how i want to deal with it.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> Immoveable  (Ex): A bloodsipper anchors itself to the ground using its numerous roots.  This makes it impossible for a foe to bull rush or trip the creature. Any bull rush or trip attempts against the bloodsipper automatically fail, as if the opponent had failed to win the opposed Strength check.




also great!


----------



## Kafkonia (Feb 28, 2007)

> A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space, although a creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but must make a new check each round.




Two variants:

A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space. A creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but must make a new check each round.

_or_

A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space, although a creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines. A new spot check must be made each round.

I prefer my first revision.


----------



## Shade (Feb 28, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Ok, but keep in mind that a kraken's appendages are probably more a part of the creature than a bloodsipper's tethers would be - plus, if you sever all potential 12 of a bloodsipper's tethers, 10 points from each might be enough to kill the plant on its own.    i think 5 points should cover it.




5 works for me.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i was thinking more of attacks on a pod (from foes who don't recognize that the pod denizen is tethered to the bloodsipper, attacking it as a separate creature), rather than sunder attempts.  how should we handle that, when a denizen is still tethered?




Maybe it woudl be easiest to simply follow the lead of the hydra?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how does this sound?  that sentence probably needs to be broken up a bit.
> 
> A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space, although a creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but must make a new check each round.




I like Kafkonia's first revision in the above post.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> if you can figure out a way to work that into the above bit, then OK.




Taking everything into consideration, how's this?

Sensory Vines (Ex): A bloodsipper's vines fill its space. A creature can move through a bloodsipper's space, but treat its space as light undergrowth for the purposes of movement and skill penalties, but concealment does not apply. A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space. A creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but must make a new check each round.  A creature that avoids contacts with the vine treats the bloodsipper's space as heavy undergrowth for purposes of movement and skill penalties.


----------



## Kafkonia (Mar 1, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sensory Vines (Ex): A bloodsipper's vines fill its space. A creature can move through a bloodsipper's space, but treat its space as light undergrowth for the purposes of movement and skill penalties, *but concealment does not apply.* A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space. A creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but must make a new check each round.  A creature that avoids contacts with the vine treats the bloodsipper's space as heavy undergrowth for purposes of movement and skill penalties.




I find the bolded bit confusing. Does concealment not apply against anything, or only between the bloodsipper and the creature in its space?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 1, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> 5 works for me.




good.    5 x 12 = 60, which would be fewer hp than a 20-HD creature would have, even with a 10 Con.    just want to make sure the plant wouldn't be killed just from severing the tethers...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe it woudl be easiest to simply follow the lead of the hydra?




i'll have to look that up again - isn't it essentially that any damage not specifically intended for sundering goes straight to the body?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I like Kafkonia's first revision in the above post.
> 
> Taking everything into consideration, how's this?
> 
> Sensory Vines (Ex): A bloodsipper's vines fill its space. A creature can move through a bloodsipper's space, but treat its space as light undergrowth for the purposes of movement and skill penalties, but concealment does not apply. A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space. A creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but must make a new check each round.  A creature that avoids contacts with the vine treats the bloodsipper's space as heavy undergrowth for purposes of movement and skill penalties.






			
				Kafkonia said:
			
		

> I find the bolded bit confusing. Does concealment not apply against anything, or only between the bloodsipper and the creature in its space?




we had originally written that part as "creatures in the bloodsipper's space do not gain concealment against the bloodsipper" because, the bloodsipper's vines would help, rather than hinder, in a bloodsipper noticing a creature.    i do think that a creature inside a bloodsipper's vines would have concealment against creatures other than the bloodsipper.  (say, for example, an orc chases a human into a bloodsipper's chamber.  the orc and human would have concealment from each other, but the bloodsipper would have no problem spotting either of them.)

how's this?

Sensory Vines (Ex): A bloodsipper's body is composed of a mass of vines spread throughout its space. A creature can move through a bloodsipper's space, but treats its space as light undergrowth for the purposes of movement and skill penalties, and concealment does not apply to the bloodsipper (need to word that properly). A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space; a creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but must make a new check each round.  A creature that successfully avoids contact with the vines treats the bloodsipper's space as heavy undergrowth for purposes of movement and skill penalties.


----------



## Kafkonia (Mar 1, 2007)

How about this?

*Sensory Vines (Ex):* A bloodsipper's body is composed of a mass of vines spread throughout its space; creatures can move through a bloodsipper's space, but treat its space as light undergrowth. A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space, and ignores any concealment penalties imposed by the light undergrowth. A creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but treats the space as heavy undergrowth rather than light, and must make a new check each round.


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'll have to look that up again - isn't it essentially that any damage not specifically intended for sundering goes straight to the body?




I'm not sure what we can do with this, but here it is:

A hydra can be killed either by severing all its heads or by slaying its body. To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a hydra’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because the hydra’s head writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him.

Each of a hydra’s heads has hit points equal to the creature's full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the body equal to half the head’s full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the neck shut to prevent further blood loss. A hydra can no longer attack with a severed head but takes no other penalties.

Each time a head is severed, two new heads spring from the stump in 1d4 rounds. A hydra can never have more than twice its original number of heads at any one time, and any extra heads it gains beyond its original number wither and die within a day. To prevent a severed head from growing back into two heads, at least 5 points of fire or acid damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before the new heads appear. A flaming weapon (or similar effect) deals its energy damage to the stump in the same blow in which a head is severed. Fire or acid damage from an area effect may burn multiple stumps in addition to dealing damage to the hydra’s body. A hydra does not die from losing its heads until all its heads have been cut off and the stumps seared by fire or acid.

A hydra’s body can be slain just like any other creature’s, but hydras possess fast healing (see below) and are difficult to defeat in this fashion. Any attack that is not (or cannot be) an attempt to sunder a head affects the body. For example, area effects deal damage to a hydra's body, not to its heads.

Targeted magical effects cannot sever a hydra’s heads (and thus must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts.




			
				Kafkonia said:
			
		

> How about this?
> 
> *Sensory Vines (Ex):* A bloodsipper's body is composed of a mass of vines spread throughout its space; creatures can move through a bloodsipper's space, but treat its space as light undergrowth. A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space, and ignores any concealment penalties imposed by the light undergrowth. A creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but treats the space as heavy undergrowth rather than light, and must make a new check each round.




I like it!


----------



## Kafkonia (Mar 1, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'll have to look that up again - isn't it essentially that any damage not specifically intended for sundering goes straight to the body?




If you have _Tome of Horrors III_, the abyssal harvester has a similar design wrt appendages vs. main body -- you might be able to port that over easily.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 1, 2007)

Kafkonia said:
			
		

> How about this?
> 
> *Sensory Vines (Ex):* A bloodsipper's body is composed of a mass of vines spread throughout its space; creatures can move through a bloodsipper's space, but treat its space as light undergrowth. A bloodsipper can automatically pinpoint the location of anything within its space, and ignores any concealment penalties imposed by the light undergrowth. A creature that succeeds on a DC 20 Spot check can avoid contact with the vines, but treats the space as heavy undergrowth rather than light, and must make a new check each round.




great!    the only change i would make is to say "ignores any concealment penalties imposed by the vines" instead, as that would cover creatures who treat it as heavy undergrowth (because, anything trying to move without being detected will treat it as heavy undergrowth, whether it makes the Spot check or not).



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what we can do with this, but here it is:
> 
> A hydra can be killed either by severing all its heads or by slaying its body. To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a hydra’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because the hydra’s head writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him.
> 
> ...




Well, we can really use that only under one condition.  We can say that pod denizens cannot be harmed until severed from their tether (essentially, normal attacks on them harm the bloodsipper instead).  If you think that sounds like a good idea, I’m willing to go that route.



			
				Kafkonia said:
			
		

> If you have _Tome of Horrors III_, the abyssal harvester has a similar design wrt appendages vs. main body -- you might be able to port that over easily.




no, i never did get #3...


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> great!    the only change i would make is to say "ignores any concealment penalties imposed by the vines" instead, as that would cover creatures who treat it as heavy undergrowth (because, anything trying to move without being detected will treat it as heavy undergrowth, whether it makes the Spot check or not).




Sounds good.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Well, we can really use that only under one condition.  We can say that pod denizens cannot be harmed until severed from their tether (essentially, normal attacks on them harm the bloodsipper instead).  If you think that sounds like a good idea, I’m willing to go that route.




Yeah, let's go that route.


----------



## Kafkonia (Mar 1, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> great!    the only change i would make is to say "ignores any concealment penalties imposed by the vines" instead, as that would cover creatures who treat it as heavy undergrowth (because, anything trying to move without being detected will treat it as heavy undergrowth, whether it makes the Spot check or not).




Good call.




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> no, i never did get #3...




My book's at home. I'll type it up if I feel up to logging on tonight.

It only sprung to mind because I happened to be browsing it this morning.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 1, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, let's go that route.




OK, you asked for it.  


To sever a bloodsipper’s pod denizen tether, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a bloodsipper’s tether when its pod denizen bites at him.

A bloodsipper’s tethers have 10 hit points each. If a pod denizen currently grappling a target is attached to a bloodsipper with the tether that is being attacked, another pod denizen usually makes the bloodsipper's attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a bloodsipper’s tethers deals 5 points of damage to the creature.  The creature regrows severed tethers and pods in 1d10+10 days.

A bloodsipper’s body can be slain just like any other creature’s. Any attack that is not (or cannot be) an attempt to sunder a tether affects the body. For example, area effects deal damage to a bloodsipper's body, not to its tether.  A pod denizen cannot be harmed so long as it remains tethered.  Killing the bloodsipper automatically severs the tethers of all remaining pod denizens.

Targeted magical effects cannot sever a bloodsipper’s tethers (and thus must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts.


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2007)

That looks pretty good.   My brain is firing on all cylinders this morning, so I can't really offer any expansion on it.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 2, 2007)

i'm going to go back and proofread that, just to be on the safe side.  if i get a chance today, i'll work on some flavor text and see what else needs to be done for this guy.

forgot about this:


			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> do we have a precedent for using grainy stuff like salt as a splash weapon? if not, would it be enough to say that a handful of salt can be throw and that works like throwing a flask?






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yes. Feather powder in BoVD and sleep powder in a 3.5 Dragon mag are both splash weapons.




don't know what dragon mag i'd look in, but the other one was easy enough to find.  note that this too comes in a vial rather than thrown as a handful of powder, but we could probably still take inspiration from it:



			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> Feather Powder: Originally designed as a weapon against devas and lammasus, this dark red alchemical powder comes in a small glass vial thrown as a grenadelike weapon. Anyone struck or splashed by the powder must succeed at a Fortitude saveing throw (DC 15) or take a -1 circumstance penalty on attack and damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for 1 minute due to irritation and itching. Creatures with feathers are particularly susceptible, taking a -2 penalty on the Fortitude save against feather powder and suffering double the effect (-2 penalty) if they fail the save.


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2007)

Here ya go:

Sneezing Powder: When thrown as a grenade-like weapon, a direct hit causes the target to suffer a -2 circumstance penalty to all rolls for 1d4 rounds unless they make a successful fortitude save (DC 15). Creatures immune to gases or poisons and those with no olfactory sense are immune to sneezing powder.
Source: Dragon Magazine #280, p. 52.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 2, 2007)

That’s actually much more useful!  



			
				MCA4 said:
			
		

> Salt in quantity makes a vine or head pull away convulsively; a handful inflicting 2d4 points of damage (much as holy water affects undead).






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Vulnerability to Holy Water (Ex): Abishai take 2d4 damage from a flask of holy water, or 1 point of damage from a splash of holy water.




Let’s give that a shot:

Vulnerability to Salt (Ex): A bloodsipper or pod denizen is affected by a quantity of salt, and will pull away from salt convulsively.  If an opponent throws a handful or flask of salt as a grenade-like weapon, a direct hit deals 2d4 points of damage to a bloodsipper or pod denizen.

Do we want to add something about splash damage?


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2007)

I'd say it should do one point of splash damage.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 2, 2007)

cool.     any opinions on ability scores?  it's a non-intelligent plant, first off.  since the main plant doesn't move, we were considering no Dex score.  the Con, IMO, should be hefty, so at least 20 and possibly quite a bit higher.  the Str may not be a major factor, so it should be less than the Con - just enough to give the bite some extra punch to make sure it does its job; the grapple bonus from size should ensure that a pod denizen remains attached and then the rest of the damage is blood drain.


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> cool.     any opinions on ability scores?  it's a non-intelligent plant, first off.  since the main plant doesn't move, we were considering no Dex score.  the Con, IMO, should be hefty, so at least 20 and possibly quite a bit higher.  the Str may not be a major factor, so it should be less than the Con - just enough to give the bite some extra punch to make sure it does its job; the grapple bonus from size should ensure that a pod denizen remains attached and then the rest of the damage is blood drain.




I think it should have a Dex score (at least for the pod denizens).  Actually, I wouldn't mind giving the whole thing a movement of 5 ft. like the assassin vine (or 10 ft. like greenvise).

Here are the stats of other big plants:

Assassin Vine (L): Str 20, Dex 10, Con 16, Int —, Wis 13, Cha 9
Shambling Mound (L): Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 9
Tendriculos (H): Str 28, Dex 9, Con 22, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3
Vine Horror (M): Str 18, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 10
Octopus Tree (H): Str 30, Dex 3, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 15
Greenvise (H): Str 29, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 6
Red Sundew (H): Str 29, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 2, 2007)

i can't see the plant moving around, being that it's firmly rooted and always described as immobile, but severed pod denizens would be able to get around until they too take root.  i could see giving the 'sipper a Dex score, but no more than 10 if we do.

i'll consider the rest of those scores later, and welcome input from anyone else reading the thread in the meantime.


----------



## Tzeentch (Mar 3, 2007)

The text is unclear exactly how many denizens it has on an encounter ("up to 12"). Just standardize on 12 for the writeup perhaps, it simplifies matters.

It strikes me that it might be simpler to say that it has a number of tendril attacks equal to the number of denizens and that destroying a tendril causes one to detach from the tree as an independent creature - removing any wording about denizens from the main combat text involving the tendrils (Which is convoluted enough). Since you're treating the denizens as part of the main body until special conditions are reached it is just confusing to keep referring to them as independent entities. Really, anything that cleans up the very clunky tendril/denizen wording is a big improvement. You could thus probably ditch the stuff about them being Medium size and such except in a section where you describe them as independent actors (sort of like how the Orcwort in MM2 works). So maybe something like:

BLOODSIPPER
Full Attack: 12 tethers +X melee (1d8+X and blood drain)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Blood Drain, Improved Grab, Release Denizen

COMBAT
XX
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a bloodsipper must hit a creature at least one size smaller than itself with its tether attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to blood drain the opponent in the following round.

A tether has 10 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking a bloodsipper’s tether provokes an attack of opportunity. Severing a tether deals 5 damage to the bloodsipper and releases a pod denizen (see below). The creature regrows severed tethers and pods in 1d10+10 days.

Release Denizen (Ex): As a move action the bloodsipper can sacrifice a tether to automatically release a pod denizen. Once all of its tethers are separated or destroyed the bloodsipper can no longer attack.

(Similar to the roper wording but harder to sunder when attached and attacking them provokes an AoO). Simplified like this does it really need all that text about AOEs and special sunder stuff?)

(Hmm, wonder if ranged touch would be appropriate for the tethers ....)

As for stats, the following seem like good comparisons as far as attack modes and size/capabilities:
Greenvise (Huge): Str 29, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 6
Orcwort (Colossal): Str 39, Dex 7, Con 29 Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Tendriculos (Huge): Str 28, Dex 9, Con 22, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3

Since its not noted as being intelligent in any way perhaps:
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 9, Con 35, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 3
(I note the other conversions give the pods low ST and that may be appropriate here as well, ST 19 would be plenty appropriate I think since the tethers originate from smaller "sub monsters" so to speak).

I don't mean to step on toes, I'm just worried about the seemingly excessive rules given to handle the pods and sundering the tethers. The pods are just a special effect of killing tethers or plant action so thats how I suggested it here, stealing liberally from the Roper wording with modifications based on the comments here.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 5, 2007)

Tzeentch said:
			
		

> The text is unclear exactly how many denizens it has on an encounter ("up to 12"). Just standardize on 12 for the writeup perhaps, it simplifies matters.




yeah, that's what i'm going to do.  hopefully the text will be pretty clear that it can have less than 12 though.



			
				Tzeentch said:
			
		

> It strikes me that it might be simpler to say that it has a number of tendril attacks equal to the number of denizens and that destroying a tendril causes one to detach from the tree as an independent creature - removing any wording about denizens from the main combat text involving the tendrils (Which is convoluted enough). Since you're treating the denizens as part of the main body until special conditions are reached it is just confusing to keep referring to them as independent entities. Really, anything that cleans up the very clunky tendril/denizen wording is a big improvement. You could thus probably ditch the stuff about them being Medium size and such except in a section where you describe them as independent actors (sort of like how the Orcwort in MM2 works). So maybe something like:




one problem with the orcwort comparison is that the orcwort doesn't _use_ its wortlings before they separate from the main plant, unlike the bloodsipper and its pod denizens.  i'll grant you that the combat text is a bit convoluted though, and i want to fix it, so i'll take your suggestions into consideration.  i wouldn't want to change it to a tendril/tether attack, since it is very much a bite attack, with the accompanying blood drain.  oh, shade?



			
				Tzeentch said:
			
		

> As for stats, the following seem like good comparisons as far as attack modes and size/capabilities:
> Greenvise (Huge): Str 29, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 6
> Orcwort (Colossal): Str 39, Dex 7, Con 29 Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
> Tendriculos (Huge): Str 28, Dex 9, Con 22, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3
> ...




like i was suggesting above, despite being a Colossal creature, this one is hardly a brute, so a Str lower than the Con is what i was thinking.  giving it 19 Str probably works better in this case than 30.  otherwise, i'm fine with your ability score suggestions.  oh, shade?  



			
				Tzeentch said:
			
		

> I don't mean to step on toes, I'm just worried about the seemingly excessive rules given to handle the pods and sundering the tethers. The pods are just a special effect of killing tethers or plant action so thats how I suggested it here, stealing liberally from the Roper wording with modifications based on the comments here.




like i said, we're far from done, so suggestions are helpful.  i'll try to clear my mind and think it through some more.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 5, 2007)

oh, also, for the attach/blood drain sequence, i was thinking these guys might work mechanically something along the lines of the anguillian from Stormwrack - since there's a precedent, and it works, i'd like to keep that part as is.    it really seems to be more like that anyway, than an actual grapple - the differences may be subtle, but they are important.


----------



## Shade (Mar 5, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, that's what i'm going to do.  hopefully the text will be pretty clear that it can have less than 12 though.




That's the way to go.  Just like an octopus has eight arms by default, but could have lost a few and not regrown them.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> one problem with the orcwort comparison is that the orcwort doesn't _use_ its wortlings before they separate from the main plant, unlike the bloodsipper and its pod denizens.  i'll grant you that the combat text is a bit convoluted though, and i want to fix it, so i'll take your suggestions into consideration.  i wouldn't want to change it to a tendril/tether attack, since it is very much a bite attack, with the accompanying blood drain.  oh, shade?




I agree that it needs to remain a bite attack.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> like i was suggesting above, despite being a Colossal creature, this one is hardly a brute, so a Str lower than the Con is what i was thinking.  giving it 19 Str probably works better in this case than 30.  otherwise, i'm fine with your ability score suggestions.  oh, shade?




Sure, I can get onboard with Str 19, Dex 9, Con 35, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 3.  Its Str is lower than most Colossal beings because the extremities aren't attacking with the full force of a creature of that size, rather with tinier mouths.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> oh, also, for the attach/blood drain sequence, i was thinking these guys might work mechanically something along the lines of the anguillian from Stormwrack - since there's a precedent, and it works, i'd like to keep that part as is.  it really seems to be more like that anyway, than an actual grapple - the differences may be subtle, but they are important.




That should work.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sure, I can get onboard with Str 19, Dex 9, Con 35, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 3.  Its Str is lower than most Colossal beings because the extremities aren't attacking with the full force of a creature of that size, rather with tinier mouths.




exactly.  i'd be willing to go a bit higher than 19 (it's only got a +11 attack bonus, but it's grapple check is +35) if you like, but not more than 30 i think.  i'm fine with leaving it as-is though, so either way.

with a Dex of 9, and its size mod, that brings us down to AC 1.  to get even the rough equivalent of what it had in 2E, it would need a minimum of +18 natural armor.

the main plant has 330 hp - so i wouldn't mind raising the damage to the bloodsipper for severing a tether back up to 10...  it can take it.  


i'm going to examine the combat text when i get a chance (who knows when that will be!) to see if there is a good way to simplify it that i like.  in the meantime, feel free to continue discussion.


----------



## Shade (Mar 5, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> exactly.  i'd be willing to go a bit higher than 19 (it's only got a +11 attack bonus, but it's grapple check is +35) if you like, but not more than 30 i think.  i'm fine with leaving it as-is though, so either way.




I'm fine either way as well. 



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> with a Dex of 9, and its size mod, that brings us down to AC 1.  to get even the rough equivalent of what it had in 2E, it would need a minimum of +18 natural armor.




The ironmaw has a +18 bonus, and the octopus tree has an even higher bonus, so I don't see that as problematic.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> the main plant has 330 hp - so i wouldn't mind raising the damage to the bloodsipper for severing a tether back up to 10...  it can take it.




Cool.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 5, 2007)

Excellent.  

I do think it’s important to retain the concept that the pod denizens are Medium-size with 20-foot reach.  First of all, that puts them in the way to a point where you can’t move through their space (since you can move through the rest of the bloodsipper’s space, after all).  Secondly, since they’re stationary while tethered, the DM would need to place them in the bloodsipper’s space for the best strategic advantage.  A bloodsipper could only attack very big creatures with all twelve, and it couldn’t attack Medium creatures with all 12 even if they were clustered together (and clustering them together would reduce their general effectiveness anyway).  Actually, very big creatures would probably not be able to move around in a bloodsipper’s space unless it’s able to squeeze between the pods.

There’s another advantage of the Attach ability – it is not restricted by size, unlike improved grab.  It can bite and attach to creatures of any size, even big ones having a hard time navigating the bloodsipper’s space.

Let’s assume a “half-strength” bloodsipper.  See the diagram below:  each colored box represents a pod denizen, and the line of the same color is its reach.  Some squares can be hit by two or even three bites, while some (mostly those adjacent to the denizens) can only be hit by one.  Now that’s a hell of an obstacle course – imagine if there were 12 to deal with!


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 5, 2007)

even better, imagine this, with 12 mature pods, how much of a terror this one would be - every square could get hit with at least two pods:


----------



## Shade (Mar 5, 2007)

Ooh, visual aids!    

Yeah, I think it would make for a fun encounter.  It reminds me of a scenario in one of the old Gold Box computer games.  One of the rooms was overrun by dangerous vegetation, and the layout was similar.


----------



## Tzeentch (Mar 6, 2007)

I'm still a bit worried about mechanical complexity of these denizens, but the illustrations helped a lot in explaining your intent.

My initial suggestion is to have the two entities separate (the writeup didn't give me that impression but the visual aid and comments do):

* Main plant: This thing has the sensor vine network and attachments for the denizens, plus extra pods it can "hatch" in its area ("reinforcements confirmed" <splrchh>). This thing has no attacks of its own but can augment the denizens and acts as a coordinator.
* Denizens: These are individual creatures that can be located anywhere in the space of the main plant. These have the lash attack, AoO enemies that get close if they are not latched on someone, etc. Either keep the current rule where severing the lash kills the denizen and transfers some damage to the main plant, or they are truly separate and the sundered lash doesnt necessarily kill the denizen and damage is only transfered if the denizen body is killed. (Extrapolating this idea is that the main plant can transfer hp to a denizen and heal it, at max health it regens the lash perhaps - like a video game boss)

I know this really isn't much different from what's being proposed, but there seems to be a lot of extra rules trying to keep the entire critter as one main statblock even with all these "sub-monsters" attached. As a main plant + denizen critters it's still a centerpiece battle (boss with its minions included as a package) and it seems to be a little less reliant on special rules (I'm very leery of the ability regarding aoe not being able to directly target the denizens for example). But then again, I'm biased towards fairly simple monster abilities   

Also, isn't the reason the anguillinian so hard to remove after its attached, is that its entire body is latched on you? I stole the roper mechanics because I thought they weren't quite that tenacious.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 6, 2007)

i decided to take a break from the mechanics for a bit and so i wrote up the flavor text.    i promise that simplifying the attack mechanics is a priority though - in fact, i figured maybe working some of that info into the flavor text would save me some trouble trying to fit it into the combat text.  

here we go:

_This area is covered with an expansive, tangled growth of thin yellow vines emanating a coppery scent in the humid air.  The enormous plant’s vines resemble arteries, slowly pulsing with a blood-like fluid.  Along these vines, fiery red pods of sickly fruit sprout profusely along the vine’s periphery; while most of these leathery pods are fist-sized, a few have grown to four or more feet in diameter._

The bloodsipper is an enormous vine corrupted by the alien energies of the Far Realm.  It shares characteristics of both animals and plants, and exists only to feed and propagate.  Both functions are enabled by the pods which grow all over the plant.  Smaller pods are numerous, vestigial and immature.  Cutting open one of these small pods releases a gagging stench in a 5-foot-radius? (Fort save X or nauseated for X rounds) and destroys the pod.

The larger pods are mature and ready for germination.  A bloodsipper usually retains a number of these mature pods for defense and feeding, but never has more than twelve at once.  Each of these pods contains a “pod denizen,” which resembles a huge, blind tadpole with a mouth full of needle-sharp teeth.  A denizen’s head gradually thins into a long, muscular tether, a coiled organic cord that anchors it to the interior base of the pod.  Each head has four clawed arms, equally spaced around its gnashing mouth.  When its tether is severed, a pod denizen becomes permanently separated from its bloodsipper and begins its existence a separate creature.  Once freed, and with no living targets nearby, a pod denizen crawls off as far as it can before it digs into the earth, becoming the seed for a new bloodsipper.

This alien growth was dubbed a “bloodsipper” by the wizard Madreus, who encountered the first known specimen and survived. From studying available specimens, it seems likely that these plants did not evolve naturally, and originated from normal plants mutated by close proximity to portals to the Far Realm.

A bloodsipper is over 600 square feet in size, and weighs X pounds.

COMBAT
A bloodsipper instinctively attacks anything moving within its vines, hoping to feed on the blood of living creatures.  When it attacks, the bloodsipper disgorges a pod denizen from its pod with a loud wet “pop” in a swift attack at the nearest opponent.  When a head anchors itself into a fleshy portion of a target, it sucks blood which is visibly transferred down the tether into the pod. A bloodsipper can only make a bite attack with a pod denizen at any foe within its reach. A typical bloodsipper can start an encounter with as many as 12 pod denizens.  Each pod denizen is Medium sized with a reach of 20 feet, and the pod denizens are found roughly evenly placed throughout a bloodsipper’s space.  While tethered to a bloodsipper, pod denizens are stationary and cannot move or act independently of the main plant.

To sever a bloodsipper’s pod denizen tether, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon...  (i'll try to get back into that part tomorrow)


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2007)

Tzeentch said:
			
		

> I know this really isn't much different from what's being proposed, but there seems to be a lot of extra rules trying to keep the entire critter as one main statblock even with all these "sub-monsters" attached. As a main plant + denizen critters it's still a centerpiece battle (boss with its minions included as a package) and it seems to be a little less reliant on special rules (I'm very leery of the ability regarding aoe not being able to directly target the denizens for example). But then again, I'm biased towards fairly simple monster abilities




I'd prefer to keep it a single creature, but I'll go along with the majority.



			
				Tzeentch said:
			
		

> Also, isn't the reason the anguillinian so hard to remove after its attached, is that its entire body is latched on you? I stole the roper mechanics because I thought they weren't quite that tenacious.




Nope, just because of its lamprey-like mouth.


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> The bloodsipper is an enormous vine corrupted by the alien energies of the Far Realm.  It shares characteristics of both animals and plants, and exists only to feed and propagate.  Both functions are enabled by the pods which grow all over the plant.  Smaller pods are numerous, vestigial and immature.  Cutting open one of these small pods releases a gagging stench in a 5-foot-radius? (Fort save X or nauseated for X rounds) and destroys the pod.




5-foot-radius sounds fine, or even simply affecting adjacent creatures.  I think a simple DC 15 Fort save should do the trick.   Nauseated for 1d4 rounds?



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> A bloodsipper is over 600 square feet in size, and weighs X pounds.




For something like this, I don't think the weight is necessary.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd prefer to keep it a single creature, but I'll go along with the majority.




i really don't feel that they _are_ separate creatures until separated from the main plant.  while tethered, i think they are little more than appendages that do what the plant needs them to do.  at the moment of separation they are totally independent, but not until then.  ever seen John Carpenter's "The Thing"?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Nope, just because of its lamprey-like mouth.




ah, right, too true - forgot about that.  for the same reason, i think with more and more certainty that attach is the way to go.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> 5-foot-radius sounds fine, or even simply affecting adjacent creatures.  I think a simple DC 15 Fort save should do the trick.   Nauseated for 1d4 rounds?




works for me!



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For something like this, I don't think the weight is necessary.




good point - since it is firmly rooted, it's not like anyone is going to lift it.    how about this instead:

"A bloodsipper is at least 600 square feet in size, and often much bigger than that."


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> good point - since it is firmly rooted, it's not like anyone is going to lift it.    how about this instead:
> 
> "A bloodsipper is at least 600 square feet in size, and often much bigger than that."




Rewording slightly:

"A bloodsipper is at least 600 square feet in size, but often grow much larger."[/QUOTE]


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## Kafkonia (Mar 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Rewording slightly:
> 
> "A bloodsipper is at least 600 square feet in size, but often grow much larger."



[/QUOTE]

Subject-verb agreement requires either "Bloodsippers are... grow" or "A bloodsipper... often grows." My preference is for the former, as:

"Bloodsippers are at least 600 square feet in size, but often grow much larger."


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 6, 2007)

Kafkonia said:
			
		

> A bloodsipper... often grows




i like that better, actually.  


OK, i'm going to try to find the time to look at the combat text and see how i can simplify that...


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 6, 2007)

OK, here is the text we currently have for severing a tether.  I absolutely agree that as it stands, this is a bit convoluted and needs some simplification.  However, I also feel that most of it should be kept:



> To sever a bloodsipper’s pod denizen tether, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a bloodsipper’s tether when its pod denizen bites at him.
> 
> A bloodsipper’s tethers have 10 hit points each. If a pod denizen currently grappling a target is attached to a bloodsipper by the tether that is being attacked, another pod denizen usually makes the bloodsipper's attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a bloodsipper’s tethers deals 10 points of damage to the bloodsipper.  The creature regrows severed tethers and pods in 1d10+10 days.
> 
> ...




Here is the text from the hydra that we modeled that after:



			
				Monster Manual said:
			
		

> A hydra can be killed either by severing all its heads or by slaying its body. To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a hydra’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because the hydra’s head writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him.
> 
> Each of a hydra’s heads has hit points equal to the creature's full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the body equal to half the head’s full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the neck shut to prevent further blood loss. A hydra can no longer attack with a severed head but takes no other penalties.
> 
> ...




Most creatures have a much simpler mechanic, as such:


> An opponent can attack a MONSTER’s PART with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A MONSTER’s (tentacles) have (X) hit points each. If a MONSTER is currently grappling a target with the (tentacle) that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a MONSTER’s PART deals (X) points of damage to the creature.  A MONSTER usually withdraws from combat if it loses (X) PARTs.  The creature regrows severed limbs in (X) days.




Or if there is more than one part that can be severed:


> An opponent can make sunder attempts against a MONSTER’s PARTS1 or PARTS2 as if they were weapons. A MONSTER’s PARTS1 have (X) hit points, and its PARTS2 have (X) hit points. If a MONSTER is currently grappling a target with one PART1 or PART2, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a MONSTER’s PART1 or PART2 deals damage to the MONSTER equal to half the limb’s full normal hit points.  A MONSTER usually withdraws from combat if it loses (X) PARTS1 or (X) PARTS2.  A MONSTER regrows severed limbs in (X) days.




A roper’s text is even simpler still, and probably too simple to be used as-is for the bloodsipper:


			
				Monster Manual said:
			
		

> A strand has 10 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking a roper’s strand does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the strand is currently attached to a target, the roper takes a -4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing a strand deals no damage to a roper.




One change I definitely want to make is to make it clear that the pod denizen and tether are not separate items that can be attacked separately.  A sunder attempt is done against the tether, and this cuts the pod from the plant.  It’s referred to elsewhere in the 2E text as a “head,” so maybe calling it that will help.  In fact, I may want to change all references so that "tethered pod denizen” becomes head, and the term “pod denizen” is used only to refer to one that becomes a separate creature. I want to get the idea across that sundering the head cuts the tether and cuts the pod denizen loose.


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2007)

Hmmm...I'm not really seeing anything that should be cut.   It isn't any more complicated than a hydra, which was good enough for the Monster Manual, right?

I'm fine with replacing "pod denizen" with head.


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## Tzeentch (Mar 6, 2007)

I would argue the hydra is a difficult monster to track for the DM as well, so it's hardly the gold standard in good monster design. Five paragraphs to cover just how the heads work is annoying    The whole pod denizen/tether interaction just gives me a headache 

I apologize for going on about this stupid thing   

Maybe:

_An opponent armed with a slashing weapon can attack a bloodsipper tether with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. Bloodsipper tethers have 10 hit points each. If a bloodsipper is currently grappling a target with the tether that is being attacked, it usually uses another tether to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing a tether deals 10 points of damage to the creature. The bloodsipper regrows severed tethers in 1d10+10 days. 

Targeted magical effects cannot sever a bloodsipper’s tethers (and thus must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts. Any attack that is not (or cannot be) an attempt to sunder a tether affects the body. For example, area effects deal damage to a bloodsipper's body, not to its tethers. _

* The written rules already cover the provoked AoO and Improved Sunder for sunder attempts.
* The last bit seems to compress the other rules.


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2007)

That rewrite looks fine to me.  I agree that the AoO for sunder attempts is repetitive since it is clearly covered in the core rules.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

OK, altered it slightly and stuck it in.    posting this one in the homebrews forum - have a look!


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## Tzeentch (Mar 7, 2007)

Bloodsipper
Initiative: -9
* Shouldn't that be just -1 from Dex, or is size modifier applied as a special effect?

Environment: X (Far Realm?)
* Underground or Warm Forests maybe ("humid air")?


* A possible version that cuts down some verbiage, tries to clarify biting heads vs. pod denizens, moves some sentences around, and adds a statblock for the denizens themselves is below.
* I liked the automatic bite damage, it makes a lot of sense to me. I left the attach quality on the pod denizens as well.

_A bloodsipper instinctively attacks anything moving within its vines, hoping to feed on the blood of living creatures. When it attacks, the nearest mature pods open with a loud wet "pop" and the pod denizen's biting heads coiled within whip out to burrow themselves into the soft flesh of their victims. A bloodsipper makes bite attacks using these tethered heads, and can attack any foe within its reach, once per round with each head that remains attached.

A biting head is merely an appendage of the bloodsipper until its tether is severed or destroyed. An opponent armed with a slashing weapon can attack a bloodsipper’s tether with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. Each bloodsipper’s tether has 10 hit points. If the tether being attacked is currently attached to a target, the bloodsipper usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing a tether deals 10 points of damage to the bloodsipper.

Any attack that is not (or cannot be) an attempt to sunder a tether affects the body. For example, area effects deal damage to a bloodsipper's body, not to its tether or head. Targeted magical effects cannot sever a bloodsipper’s tethers (and thus must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts. Killing a bloodsipper automatically sunders the tethers of all remaining pod denizens.

Attach (Ex): If a bloodsipper hits with a bite attack, it uses the four clawed arms that surround the maw to latch onto the opponent’s body, automatically dealing bite damage each round it remains attached. Attached biting heads can be removed by grappling it and achieving a pin.

Pod Denizens (Ex): Biting heads separated from the bloodsipper turn into independent pod denizens (see below) on the following round. A bloodsipper can sever the tether of a biting head to free a pod denizen as a move action. Severed pod denizens and tethers are replaced in 1d10+10 days.

*Pod Denizen:* CR -; Small plant; HD 4d8; hp 18; Init -1; Spd 40 ft.; AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 12; Base Atk +3; Grp +3; Atk or Full Atk: bite +8 melee (1d8+4); Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft; SA attach; SQ low-light vision, plant qualities, vulnerability to salt; AL Chaotic Neutral; SV Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +0; Str 19, Dex 9, Con 10, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 3.

<maybe briefly describe what denizens do here: probably fight and run when main plant is low health?>

.. etc as you had it
_

Rest looks awesome!


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## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

Tzeentch said:
			
		

> Bloodsipper
> Initiative: -9
> * Shouldn't that be just -1 from Dex, or is size modifier applied as a special effect?




 brainfahrt?



			
				Tzeentch said:
			
		

> Environment: X (Far Realm?)
> * Underground or Warm Forests maybe ("humid air")?




they probably don't need to be limited exclusively to forested areas, as they don't really fit in with any other vegetation (except as possible camouflage) - does "Warm land and underground" sound decent?



			
				Tzeentch said:
			
		

> * A possible version that cuts down some verbiage, tries to clarify biting heads vs. pod denizens, moves some sentences around, and adds a statblock for the denizens themselves is below.
> * I liked the automatic bite damage, it makes a lot of sense to me. I left the attach quality on the pod denizens as well.




good call - and they probably don't need the blood drain either, since they probably lack the ability to process it.

i'll incorporate some of your changes and eventually update the other post.  



			
				Tzeentch said:
			
		

> *Pod Denizen:* CR -; Small plant; HD 4d8; hp 18; Init -1; Spd 40 ft.; AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 12; Base Atk +3; Grp +3; Atk or Full Atk: bite +8 melee (1d8+4); Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft; SA attach; SQ low-light vision, plant qualities, vulnerability to salt; AL Chaotic Neutral; SV Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +0; Str 19, Dex 9, Con 10, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 3.
> 
> <maybe briefly describe what denizens do here: probably fight and run when main plant is low health?>




cool, thanks, that's exactly the sort of thing i was looking for.    i could see it having a lower Str without the tether to back it up, maybe 15-ish?


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> they probably don't need to be limited exclusively to forested areas, as they don't really fit in with any other vegetation (except as possible camouflage) - does "Warm land and underground" sound decent?




I think that should suffice.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> cool, thanks, that's exactly the sort of thing i was looking for.    i could see it having a lower Str without the tether to back it up, maybe 15-ish?




Nah...no sense complicating it further, eh?    

Looking good, otherwise.

I love those saving throws.  Achilles heel, anyone?    

For advancement, might as well go with 21+ (Colossal).  Should we allow it to gain an additional bite attack for every X HD gained?

Treasure is probably present, since it is immobile and nothing seems to indicate that it digests anything other than blood.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Nah...no sense complicating it further, eh?
> 
> Looking good, otherwise.




you'd leave the denizen's Str at 19 then?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I love those saving throws.  Achilles heel, anyone?




more like Achilles' whole body.    Will save won't be too big of a deal since it's a plant, but give 'em enough fireballs and you'll kill the 'sipper.  of course, maybe that's part of the point, because then you'll free up as many as a dozen fully-charged pod denizens who are at that point mobile and will swarm the mage.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For advancement, might as well go with 21+ (Colossal).  Should we allow it to gain an additional bite attack for every X HD gained?




only if we put some kind of provision in there about gaining size per HD - at 30x30, 12 pods is already pretty crowded!



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Treasure is probably present, since it is immobile and nothing seems to indicate that it digests anything other than blood.




good point - i wonder if a bunch of corpses lying around would be a good tip-off that this plant is dangerous?    Standard, or less?  i'm thinking less.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> you'd leave the denizen's Str at 19 then?




Yep.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> more like Achilles' whole body.    Will save won't be too big of a deal since it's a plant, but give 'em enough fireballs and you'll kill the 'sipper.  of course, maybe that's part of the point, because then you'll free up as many as a dozen fully-charged pod denizens who are at that point mobile and will swarm the mage.




Ouch.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> only if we put some kind of provision in there about gaining size per HD - at 30x30, 12 pods is already pretty crowded!




Agreed.  We could add 10 feet of space for every bite gained.  Or, if this is too complicated, just leave it off entirely.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> good point - i wonder if a bunch of corpses lying around would be a good tip-off that this plant is dangerous?    Standard, or less?  i'm thinking less.




I'd say!   Standard is probably fine.  I've seen plenty of monsters with incidental treasure have standard.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Agreed. We could add 10 feet of space for every bite gained. Or, if this is too complicated, just leave it off entirely.




we might not want to make a complex mechanic out of it.  is there a rule anywhere that specifically deals with creatures over 30x30?


updating - how's it look now?  

maybe time for a CR - it's not going to be *very* tough for its HD since it can be killed pretty easily (see my note on fireball bombardment above), though its attacks can be pretty tough if they get through.

maybe we also want to have a separate CR for pod denizens (which, one must assume, since you can't kill them since they're severed, you're going to have to fit them separately anyway) or maybe just factor their presence into the bloodsipper's CR and leave it at that?  or should they have separte CR's that just affect the ECL?


----------



## Shade (Mar 7, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> we might not want to make a complex mechanic out of it.  is there a rule anywhere that specifically deals with creatures over 30x30?




Not that I can think of.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> updating - how's it look now?




I'll give it a good look-through momentarily.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> maybe time for a CR - it's not going to be *very* tough for its HD since it can be killed pretty easily (see my note on fireball bombardment above), though its attacks can be pretty tough if they get through.




OK, it's definitely not CR 20...the ancient night twist at CR 20 has 25 HD and is more deadly.  Also at CR 20, the orcwort has 32 HD, but is less deadly.  The bloodsipper is far more dangerous than the red sundew and ironmaw at CR 13.  Compared to the plague brush at CR 17, it has less HD (31 for the brush), but is about as deadly.  So I'm thinking CR 15-17.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> maybe we also want to have a separate CR for pod denizens (which, one must assume, since you can't kill them since they're severed, you're going to have to fit them separately anyway) or maybe just factor their presence into the bloodsipper's CR and leave it at that?  or should they have separte CR's that just affect the ECL?




Nah, they're really part of the original encounter.  I don't see them as much different than a summoned monster, which also doesn't have its own CR for XP rewards.


----------



## Shade (Mar 7, 2007)

I looked it over, and other than the issues above, I think we're close to finishing.


----------



## Tzeentch (Mar 7, 2007)

This ended up being a cool monster I think  Mechanically interesting and cool flavor text make a good package. 

15-17 CR sounds about right, the wild card is actually the denizens since players could possibly kill the plant and still have 12+ 4hd denizens swarming over them (heck, give them Swarmfighting as a bonus feet if the GM feels evil)


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Not that I can think of.




if you can think of a way to match a size increase to an HD increase (every 4-HD?) which would give it additional heads, we'll use that.  otherwise, i'd rather not mess with it.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> OK, it's definitely not CR 20...the ancient night twist at CR 20 has 25 HD and is more deadly.  Also at CR 20, the orcwort has 32 HD, but is less deadly.  The bloodsipper is far more dangerous than the red sundew and ironmaw at CR 13.  Compared to the plague brush at CR 17, it has less HD (31 for the brush), but is about as deadly.  So I'm thinking CR 15-17.
> 
> Nah, they're really part of the original encounter.  I don't see them as much different than a summoned monster, which also doesn't have its own CR for XP rewards.




sounds good.  to make things simple let's assume for CR and other purposes that a bloodsipper has 12 heads, and i'll add the following bit to the text: "the above statistics assume the bloodsipper has 12"


some other things i thought of while looking over the conversion:

Question.  Should we include something about the coppery scent in the combat section or anywhere?  the original text does say that it can be smelled up to 100 feet away.

Also, would you think that if you severed a head while it was attached to someone, would it remain attached or would it “fall off” and have to attach to a victim again?

I noted that in GoFP, a pod denizen was listed with 29 hp each.  Raising the Con to 16 would give them 30 hp each.  Yes, no, maybe so?  I’m also thinking a higher Dex score should be in order, since they’re mobile (unlike the big plant).


----------



## Shade (Mar 7, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if you can think of a way to match a size increase to an HD increase (every 4-HD?) which would give it additional heads, we'll use that.  otherwise, i'd rather not mess with it.




Tying it in with every 4 HD would work well, as that would boost the CR by 1 at the same intervals.  So maybe for every 4 HD gained, the bloodsipper gains another head and increases its space by the same size as the additional pod denizen?




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds good.  to make things simple let's assume for CR and other purposes that a bloodsipper has 12 heads, and i'll add the following bit to the text: "the above statistics assume the bloodsipper has 12"




That'll work.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Question.  Should we include something about the coppery scent in the combat section or anywhere?  the original text does say that it can be smelled up to 100 feet away.




Sure.  From the scent ability:

"A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges."

Maybe we can simply state that the coppery smell is treated as overpowering scent?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, would you think that if you severed a head while it was attached to someone, would it remain attached or would it “fall off” and have to attach to a victim again?




I'd say it would remain attached for simplicity's sake.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I noted that in GoFP, a pod denizen was listed with 29 hp each.  Raising the Con to 16 would give them 30 hp each.  Yes, no, maybe so?  I’m also thinking a higher Dex score should be in order, since they’re mobile (unlike the big plant).




I'm fine with the slight Con boost and perhaps a Dex boost of 4?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Tying it in with every 4 HD would work well, as that would boost the CR by 1 at the same intervals.  So maybe for every 4 HD gained, the bloodsipper gains another head and increases its space by the same size as the additional pod denizen?




i don't quite follow.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Sure.  From the scent ability:
> 
> "A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges."
> 
> Maybe we can simply state that the coppery smell is treated as overpowering scent?




sounds good - would that be a SQ or just flavor text?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm fine with the slight Con boost and perhaps a Dex boost of 4?




good deal.


----------



## Tzeentch (Mar 7, 2007)

Re: Smell
Probably just flavor text, a lot of critters have smells so bad they are (Ex) abilities but nothing special noted about detection (and Spot doesn't really cover smell). Something like "Creatures with the scent ability can detect the strong metallic stench of a bloodsipper at three times their normal range." or something?

Re: Denizens
Here's a statblock with the buffed stats.

*Pod Denizen:* CR -; Small plant; HD 4d8; hp 30; Init +1; Spd 40 ft.; AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 13; Base Atk +3; Grp +3; Atk or Full Atk: bite +8 melee (1d8+4); Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft; SA attach; SQ low-light vision, plant qualities, vulnerability to salt; AL Chaotic Neutral; SV Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +0; Str 19, Dex 13, Con 16, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 3.
_Skills and Feats:_ Hide +5.

The hide is just their DX and size modifier but might still be handy to list.


----------



## Shade (Mar 7, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't quite follow.




Plants advance at a rate of +1 CR per 4 HD added.  I figured we could tie in an additional head with each CR increase, and add 5 ft. to the bloodsipper's space (to account for the 5 ft. space of a pod denizen).  Thus, a 24-HD bloodsipper would have 24 HD, 13 heads, and a space/reach of 35 ft./0 ft.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds good - would that be a SQ or just flavor text?




It's probably fine as flavor.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

OK, i get you now.  maybe we could do this:

A bloodsipper is at least 600 square feet in size, but often grows much larger.  For every 4-HD a bloodsipper advances, its space increases by 5 feet, and it gains an additional pod.


OK, updating once again.  what CR should we put this puppy at?  is 15 good enough, or do we want to go higher?


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, i get you now.  maybe we could do this:
> 
> A bloodsipper is at least 600 square feet in size, but often grows much larger.  For every 4-HD a bloodsipper advances, its space increases by 5 feet, and it gains an additional pod.




That'll work.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, updating once again.  what CR should we put this puppy at?  is 15 good enough, or do we want to go higher?




My gut is telling me CR 16.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

great!    let me get this one together to post again, because i think we're done...

one last question - do you know if Gates of Firestorm Peak was published in 1996 or 1999?  i'm not sure.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

It looks like both.  Perhaps the 1999 was a second printing?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

i'll go with 96 then.  if i'm wrong, then someone can just sue me.  

updating in homebrews - we done yet?


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

I think so.


----------



## Kafkonia (Mar 8, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'll go with 96 then.  if i'm wrong, then someone can just sue me.
> 
> updating in homebrews - we done yet?




Pen-paper.net's database says 99, so you may want to page Perry Mason.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

OK then, '99 it is.


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

At long last the remaining linnorms shall get their due.    

From MCA1:

Dragon, Linnorm, Rain
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:  Any land
FREQUENCY:  Very rare
ORGANIZATION:  Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE:  Any
DIET:  Special
INTELLIGENCE:  Average (8-10)
TREASURE:  See below
ALIGNMENT:  Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING:  1
ARMOR CLASS: 3 (base)
MOVEMENT: 18, Fl 39 (B), SW 9
HIT DICE: 10 (base)
THAC0: 11 (base)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 plus special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d12 (x2)/3d10/see below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: H-G (20' base length)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: See below

Rain linnorms are quite vain, to the point of demanding credit for their atrocities.  The more heinous the act, the more powerful the rain linnorm feels.  Rain linnorms desire more treasure than other dragons could possibly accumulate.

Hatchling rain linnorms' teardrop-shaped scales are shiny and white.  As they age, the scales grow larger and thicker, and turn gray, blue, green, or white at the creature's whim.

Rains speak their own language and can communicate with all other Norse dragons, though they rarely lower themselves to do so. A hatchling has a 5% chance of being able to communicate with all other animals, and that chance increases 5% per age category.

Combat: Young and juvenile rains are quick to rush into battle for treasure, attacking first with breath weapons and magical abilities.  (A favorite strategem of juveniles is to call lightning.)  However, if a target appears nonthreatening, the linnorm fights with claws and bite, hoping to leave valuables intact.  Adult and older ones hate to sully their claws, so they always attack first with spells, then assault their targets with breath weapons.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: The rain linnorm's breath is a stream of boiling water 3 feet wide and 90 feet long (saving throw for half damage applies). A rain linnorm casts spells at a level equal to 8 plus the dragon's combat modifier. 

Rain linnorms are born invulnerable to electrical attacks, and they gain abilities as they age: very young - create food and water (twice per day); young - plant growth and entangle (three times per day each); juvenile - call lightning (twice per day); young adult - lightning bolt (twice per day) and water breathing (at will); adult - control winds (twice per day); mature adult - moonbeam and rainbow (each three times per day); old - immune to missile weapons and transmute dust to water (three times per day); very old - immune to nonmagical blunt weapons, weather summoning (twice per day); venerable - immune to nonmagical edged weapons, conjure water elemental (twice per day); wyrm - regenerate 10 hp/round, control weather (once per day); great wyrm - regenerate 20 hp/round, wind walk (once per day).

Habitat/Society: Rain linnorms live on hills where they can be comfortably buffeted by wind and rain. Their lairs within the hills have treasure hidden inside many chambers. A rain stays in its lair only when the weather is pleasant.  Wyrms and great wyrms have been known to control the weather when the land has been too long without inclement weather.

Rain linnorms consider all others beneath them, and therefore improper company. Indeed, the only time more than one is encountered is when a pair has mated--they separate when the eggs hatch, abandoning the young.

Rains attempt to kill all intelligent creatures that come too near their lairs. If a linnorm believes the location of its lair is known, it will painstakingly move its treasure to a new lair.

Ecology: Rain linnorms are able to subsist on almost anything, but their favorite sustenance is lightning bolts. They have no known predators except adventurers.



From Dragon #183 (1992):

Linnorm, Rain
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:  Any
FREQUENCY:  Very rare
ORGANIZATION:  Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE:  Any
DIET:  Special
INTELLIGENCE:  Average (8-10)
TREASURE:  Special
ALIGNMENT:  Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING:  1 (5% of 1-6)
ARMOR CLASS: 3 (base)
MOVEMENT: 18, Fl 40 (B), SW 9
HIT DICE: 10 (base)
THAC0: 11 (at 10 HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws/1 bite + special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d12/1d12/3d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable
SIZE: H (20’ at base)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: Variable

Rain linnorms are the most vain of the Norse dragons, and will go out of their way to destroy communities and harm the land in the area of other dragons. However, unlike gray linnorms, the rain linnorms do not attempt to place the blame for the attacks elsewhere. The rain linnorms demand credit for their atrocities. The more heinous the act, the more powerful the rain linnorm considers itself. Further, the rain linnorms seek to gain vast amounts of treasure, more than they believe other dragons could possibly accumulate.

When rain linnorms hatch, their teardrop-shaped scales appear shiny and white. As the linnorm ages, the scales retain their shape, but they become larger, thicker, and are able to become gray, blue, green, or white at the creature's whim.

Linnorms speak their own language and can communicate with all other Norse dragons, although they rarely lower themselves to do so. In addition, a hatchling linnorm has a 5% chance of being able to communicate with all animals. The chance to possess this ability increases 5% per age category of the linnorm.

Combat: Young and juvenile rain linnorms are quick to rush into battles that will net them treasure. This includes attacking traveling merchants, wandering adventurers, and small communities. The linnorms attack first with their breath weapon and any magical abilities they possess.

A favorite strategy of juvenile rain linnorms is to call lightning on a target, then breathe on anything left standing. However, if the target appears small and nonthreatening, the linnorm will combat the victim with its claws and bite in an effort to keep any valuables intact. As  the linnorm ages, its tactics change. Adult and older rain linnorms hate to sully their claws with physical combat. The older linnorms always attack first with their weather-related spells, to show their superiority even over the elements. Then they assault their targets with their breath weapons.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: A rain linnorm's breath is a stream of boiling water 3' wide at the linnorm's mouth and 90' long.  Creatures struck must save vs. breath for half damage. A rain linnorm casts spells at 8th level, adjusted by combat modifiers. 

Rain linnorms are born invulnerable to electrical attacks. As they age, they gain additional abilities: very young - create food and water (twice a day); young - plant growth and entangle (each three times a day); juvenile - call lightning (twice a day); young adult - lightning bolt (twice a day), water breathing (at will); adult - control winds (twice a day); mature adult - moonbeam and rainbow (each three times a day); old - immune to missile weapons and transmute dust to water (three times a day); very old - immune to nonmagical blunt weapons, weather summoning (twice a day); venerable - immune to nonmagical edged weapons, conjure water elemental (twice a day); wyrm - regenerate 10 hp/round, control weather (once a day); great wyrm - regenerate 20 hp/round, wind walk (once a day).

Habitat/Society: Rain linnorms live on hills where they can be comfortably buffeted by the winds and rain. Their lairs are usually deep within the hills, and their treasure hidden inside the many chambers. A linnorm usually stays in its lair only when the weather is pleasant.
Wyrms and great wyrms have been known to control weather around their domains when the land has been too long without inclement weather.

Rain linnorms consider all others-including other rain linnorms-to be beneath them, and therefore improper company. The only time more than one rain linnorm will be encountered is when a pair has mated.  The pair separate when the eggs hatch, abandoning the baby linnorms to their own devices.

Rain linnorms attempt to kill all intelligent creatures that come too near their lairs. If a linnorm believes the location of its lair is known, it will painstakingly move every piece of treasure to a new lair.

Ecology: Rain linnorms are able to subsist on almost anything. However, their favorite sustenance is lightning bolts, which they attempt to catch in evening storms. They have no known predators except human adventurers.


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

Note these guidelines  before proceeding.


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

Rain Linnorm
Huge Dragon
Hit Dice: 10d12+x (x hp)
Initiative: +x
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 100 ft. (good), swim 30 ft.
AC: x (-2 size, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+x
Attack: Bite +x melee (2d6+x)
Full Attack: Bite +x melee (2d6+x) and 2 claws +x melee (2d8+x) and tail slap +x melee (2d6+x)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, crush 2d8+x, spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: Blindsense 60 ft., damage reduction x, immunity to disease, paralysis, and sleep, keen senses, spell resistance CR+11
Saves: Fort +x, Ref +x, Will +x
Abilities: Str x, Dex x, Con x, Int x, Wis x, Cha x
Skills: x
Feats: 4 (Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch, 1 more?)
Environment: Any (non-arid?) land
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: Standard?
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge); 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

Rain linnorms speak Draconic and Abyssal.


----------



## Stereofm (Jun 29, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> This thread continues my idea of “cooperative conversions” started in this thread, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that )




Woah ! Thank you man ! Much appreciated. nothing like a good monster to cheer you up after the death of a DRAGON...


----------



## BOZ (Jul 3, 2007)

no problem, of course.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 4, 2007)

Talking of linnorms, looks like the stygian linnorm is in Dungeon 149.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

MCA1 said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: The rain linnorm's breath is a stream of boiling water 3 feet wide and 90 feet long (saving throw for half damage applies). A rain linnorm casts spells at a level equal to 8 plus the dragon's combat modifier.






			
				Dragon 183 said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: A rain linnorm's breath is a stream of boiling water 3' wide at the linnorm's mouth and 90' long.  Creatures struck must save vs. breath for half damage. A rain linnorm casts spells at 8th level, adjusted by combat modifiers.




90 foot line and fire damage?



			
				MCA1 said:
			
		

> Rain linnorms are born invulnerable to electrical attacks, and they gain abilities as they age: very young - create food and water (twice per day); young - plant growth and entangle (three times per day each); juvenile - call lightning (twice per day); young adult - lightning bolt (twice per day) and water breathing (at will); adult - control winds (twice per day); mature adult - moonbeam and rainbow (each three times per day); old - immune to missile weapons and transmute dust to water (three times per day); very old - immune to nonmagical blunt weapons, weather summoning (twice per day); venerable - immune to nonmagical edged weapons, conjure water elemental (twice per day); wyrm - regenerate 10 hp/round, control weather (once per day); great wyrm - regenerate 20 hp/round, wind walk (once per day).






			
				Dragon 183 said:
			
		

> Rain linnorms are born invulnerable to electrical attacks. As they age, they gain additional abilities: very young - create food and water (twice a day); young - plant growth and entangle (each three times a day); juvenile - call lightning (twice a day); young adult - lightning bolt (twice a day), water breathing (at will); adult - control winds (twice a day); mature adult - moonbeam and rainbow (each three times a day); old - immune to missile weapons and transmute dust to water (three times a day); very old - immune to nonmagical blunt weapons, weather summoning (twice a day); venerable - immune to nonmagical edged weapons, conjure water elemental (twice a day); wyrm - regenerate 10 hp/round, control weather (once a day); great wyrm - regenerate 20 hp/round, wind walk (once a day).




Immunity to electricity seems a no-brainer.   DR/magic and bludgeoning or slashing?

None of the other linnorms have regeneration or fast healing.  Should we keep that?

At will -- control winds, water breathing (or just the water breathing special ability?)
3/day -- entangle, plant growth
2/day -- call lightning, create food and water, lightning bolt, 
1/day -- control weather, wind walk

Moonbeam, rainbow, transmute dust to water, weather summoning, and conjure water elemental will all need replacements (or be dropped)


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jul 6, 2007)

None of the other linnorms had regeneration in 2e either.  Keep it.

As for conjure water elemental, give it a summon monster/nature's ally spell of appropriate power and just say it can only summon water elementals.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> 90 foot line and fire damage?



Or acid? I'm sort of thinking acid rain 

Either would work though.



> Immunity to electricity seems a no-brainer.



Indeed   



> DR/magic and bludgeoning or slashing?



Well at different age categories it gains immunity to blunt and edged weapons so maybe it should be DR/magic and piercing?



> None of the other linnorms have regeneration or fast healing.  Should we keep that?



Of course 



> or just the water breathing special ability?



Yes



> Moonbeam, rainbow, transmute dust to water, weather summoning, and conjure water elemental will all need replacements (or be dropped)



Quench seems a reasonable replacement.
What did rainbow do? There is a rainbow spell is Dragon 321 (322?) or perhaps rainbow pattern?
There's also a moonbeam spell in the FRCS book which we could possibly refer to.

I agree with GrayLinnorm about summoning water elementals.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> None of the other linnorms had regeneration in 2e either.  Keep it.




Good point.  Will do!



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> As for conjure water elemental, give it a summon monster/nature's ally spell of appropriate power and just say it can only summon water elementals.




Fair enough.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Or acid? I'm sort of thinking acid rain




We could do half acid/half fire as well.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Well at different age categories it gains immunity to blunt and edged weapons so maybe it should be DR/magic and piercing?




Ah, but look again...it gets immunity to nonmagical blunt and edged weapons (thus, DR/magic), but gains immunity to all missile weapons (which usually translates to DR/bludgeoning or slashing).    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Quench seems a reasonable replacement.
> What did rainbow do? There is a rainbow spell is Dragon 321 (322?) or perhaps rainbow pattern?
> There's also a moonbeam spell in the FRCS book which we could possibly refer to.




Quench seems reasonable.

The rainbow spell in Dragon creates an actual bow that can be fired.  Not really useful for a linnorm.  Maybe go with rainbow pattern?

I think we can drop moonbeam.  It's really only useful against lycanthropes.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Ah, but look again...it gets immunity to nonmagical blunt and edged weapons (thus, DR/magic), but gains immunity to all missile weapons (which usually translates to DR/bludgeoning or slashing).



For missile weapons give it a permanent protection from normal missiles. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> For missile weapons give it a permanent protection from normal missiles.




But nowadays, all that gets you is damage reduction 10/magic against ranged weapons.  Might as well just simplify to DR/magic across the board (like the other linnorms), eh?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Might as well just simplify to DR/magic across the board (like the other linnorms), eh?



Yeah 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

It's time to talk ability scores...

Ability scores of existing linnorms:
Corpse Tearer (G): Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
Dread (C): Str 40, Dex 8, Con 31, Int 15, Wis 22, Cha 21
Gray (H): Str 24, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 17
Sea (G): Str 38, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 21
Swamp (G): Str 32, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 15, Wis 20, Cha 18
Flame (G): Str 35, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 20
Frost (G): Str 32, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 19


----------



## Mortis (Jul 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Ability scores of existing linnorms:
> Corpse Tearer (G): Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
> Dread (C): Str 40, Dex 8, Con 31, Int 15, Wis 22, Cha 21
> Gray (H): Str 24, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 17
> ...



Well Gray's the closest in size so how about...

Str 28, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 17

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

Those look good.  Updated with these scores.

Thoughts on regeneration amount?  

How about caster level?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Thoughts on regeneration amount?



Regeneration 10



> How about caster level?



Caster Level 15th

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

Spellcasting or not?

Here's how the other linnorms break down...

Corpse Tearer - As 17th-level cleric (Destruction and Evil domains)
Dread - As 18th-level sorcerer
Gray - As 17th-level cleric (Destruction and Evil domains)
Sea - none
Stygian - none
Swamp - As 17th-level druid
Flame - As 18th-level sorcerer
Frost - None


----------



## Mortis (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Spellcasting or not?



I'd say so and, given that they are fond of weather spells, give them druid spells. As a 14th level druid?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

Sounds good.  Modeling after the swamp linnorm's ability...

Spells: A rain linnorm can cast arcane spells as a 14th-level druid. They cannot swap out prepared spells to cast summon nature's ally spells.

Typical Druid Spells Prepared (6/6/6/5/4/3/3/2; save DC 13 + spell level): 0 -- x; 1 -- x; 2 -- x; 3 -- x; 4 -- x; 5 -- x; 6 -- x; 7 -- x.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jul 18, 2007)

Druids don't cast arcane spells


----------



## Mortis (Jul 18, 2007)

That darn cut 'n' paste 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> That darn cut 'n' paste




Indeed.  I lifted it directly from the swamp linnorm.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 23, 2007)

Skills: 108 points

Standard linnorm skills are :- Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

If we add one more skill (survival?) that works out to 9 skill ranks in each. Does that work?

Feats: Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch

plus Quicken spell-like ability (summon monster XX)?

What range do we have for Natural Armor amongst the other linnorms?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Skills: 108 points
> 
> Standard linnorm skills are :- Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim
> 
> If we add one more skill (survival?) that works out to 9 skill ranks in each. Does that work?




Spot-checking some of the others, it looks like Bluff, Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot often get max ranks.

Intimidate and Spellcraft sometimes get varying ranks, sometimes only synergy. 

Search and Swim get decent ranks, but not max.

Diplomacy only gets synergy.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Feats: Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch
> 
> plus Quicken spell-like ability (summon monster XX)?




Those look good, but I'd rather go with lightning bolt for the quickened SLA.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> What range do we have for Natural Armor amongst the other linnorms?




+19 to +36.


----------



## Mortis (Aug 1, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Spot-checking some of the others, it looks like Bluff, Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot often get max ranks.
> 
> Intimidate and Spellcraft sometimes get varying ranks, sometimes only synergy.
> 
> ...



OK, then Bluff, Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot get 13 ranks each for a total of 78.

This leaves us with 30 ranks to spend, so...

Search and Swim 10 ranks each?
Intimidate and Spell craft 5 ranks each?




> but I'd rather go with lightning bolt for the quickened SLA.



That works too.



> +19 to +36.



+26?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

Fill in the blanks...

Spells: A rain linnorm can cast divine spells as a 14th-level druid. They cannot swap out prepared spells to cast summon nature's ally spells.

Typical Druid Spells Prepared (6/6/6/5/4/3/3/2; save DC 13 + spell level): 0 -- x; 1 -- x; 2 -- x; 3 -- x; 4 -- x; 5 -- x; 6 -- x; 7 -- x.


----------



## Mortis (Aug 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Typical Druid Spells Prepared



How about these?

0: Create Water, Detect Magic, Flare, Know Direction, Purify Food and Drink, Resistance
1: Endure Elements, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Longstrider, Obscuring Mist, Pass without Trace
2: Barkskin, Bull's Strength, Chill Metal, Flaming Sphere, Fog Cloud, Lesser Restoration, 
3: Call Lightning, Greater Magic Fang, Poison, Protection from Energy, Sleet Storm
4: Blight, Control Water, Flame Strike, Ice Storm, 
5: Death Ward, Insect Plague, Stoneskin
6: Greater Dispel Magic, Find the Path, Summon Nature's Ally VI
7: Creeping Doom, Heal

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 22, 2007)

Sounds good.  I'll add 'em to Homebrews when I get a chance.


----------



## Mortis (Aug 23, 2007)

Looks like we just need CR and flavour text.

CR 12?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2007)

Updated.

Here's what still needs to be addressed....

damage reduction x/magic

Environment: Any (non-arid?) land

Breath Weapon...

summon monster xx (water elementals only);


----------



## Mortis (Aug 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> damage reduction x/magic



10



> Environment: Any (non-arid?) land



non-arid looks good



> summon monster xx (water elementals only);



Summon Monster V

As for the breath weapon it needs to be of a weathery/watery nature - something like hail? 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2007)

I bumped the CR to 14 due to their caster level.

I updated Homebrews with flavor text.

For the breath weapon, it looks like we decided upthread on a 90-foot cone of half acid/half fire damage.  

According to the MCA table, a juvenile's breath would have done 9d6 damage.  Does that sound good?  The CR 16 stygian linnorm deals 12d6 damage.


----------



## Mortis (Aug 24, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I bumped the CR to 14 due to their caster level.



Probably for the best. 



> I updated Homebrews with flavor text.



Yay!!! 



> For the breath weapon, it looks like we decided upthread on a 90-foot cone of half acid/half fire damage.



That's right - it's been awhile - acid rain if I remember rightly.



> According to the MCA table, a juvenile's breath would have done 9d6 damage.  Does that sound good?  The CR 16 stygian linnorm deals 12d6 damage.



9d6 looks good.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 24, 2007)

Oops I said "cone" instead of "line".

Thus...

Breath Weapon (Su): 90-foot line of caustic boiling water, once every 1d4 rounds; damage 9d6, half of which is acid and the other fire, Reflex DC X half. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## Mortis (Aug 29, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Oops I said "cone" instead of "line".



Well it was a while back 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Aug 29, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.   Anything left?


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

Is this one finished?


----------



## Mortis (Sep 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Is this one finished?



Looks like it is. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

Great!  I'll get the next one going soon.


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2007)

From MCA1:

*Linnorm, Forest*
Climate/Terrain:  Any nonarctic forest
Freq: Very rare
Org:  Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet:  Special
Intelligence:  Average (8-10)
Treasure:  See below
Alignment:  Chaotic evil
# App:  1
AC:  1 (base)
Movement:  24, Sw 12
HD:  11 (base)
THAC0:  9 (base)
# Attacks:  1 + special
Dmg/Attk:  2d8/special
SA:  Spells, breath weapon, surprise
SD:  Spells
Magic resistance:  See below
Size H-G (21' base length)
Morale Champion (15-16)
XP Value:  See below

A forest linnorm resembles a huge, grotesque snake more than a dragon.  Its body is a mottled green and brown that masks its form in forest undergrowth.  This linnorm possesses a great ego, a natural cunning, and unending cruelty.  It considers no creature above it and hates all beings possessing more than animal intelligence, especially "beautiful" creatures.

At birth, a forest linnorm could be easily confused with a large green lizard, as it has four legs and a thin, whiplike tail.  As the creature matures, its legs atrophy, disappearing by young adulthood.  Brown splotches appear on its body, its scales become larger and thicker, and its head widens.

Forest linnorms speak the languages of all animals in addition to their own, but can't converse with humans.

Combat:  Forest linnorms trap prey by mimicking the sounds of injured animals (imposing a +2 bonus upon surprise rolls), and older specimens use illusisons to further deceive.  Their prized targets are humans, as they find those people beautiful and therefore objects to be injured, punished, and slain.  Forests use their breath weapons to weaken victims before physically attacking.  They tend to fight to the death, viewing no opponent as too strong or dangerous.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities:  This breath weapon is a 1-foot-wide gout of heavy, acidic liquid extending in a straight line 6 feet per age category.  The liquid inflicts damage and acts as a wither spell upon a randomly selected limb (no save).

Forest linnorms caset spells and use their magical abiliteis at a level of ability equal to 5 plus their combat modifier.  They are limited to learning only illusion/phantasm spells.

Forest linnorms are born with a constant invisibility to animals power.  At the young stage they can warp wood, at young adulthood, they can cause plant growth, at mature adulthood they can use spike growth, at very old stage they can use sticks to snakes, and wyrms can pass plant.  Except for invisibility to animals, each ability is usuable three times per day.

Habitat/Society:  Forest linnorms jealously maintain a 100-square-mile territory, tolerating others only when they mate.  When offspring are born, the male returns to its own territory, and the mother forces the young to leave her territory when they pass from the hatchling stage.

These monsters make their lairs in densely overgrown forests, wrapping their bodies about trees and brushes, becoming virtually undistinguishable from roots and trunks.  They prefer temperate weather, but can stand great extremes.

Forests usually store their treasure in hollow tree trunks.  They prize gems and jewelry, but only so they can break them later.  It's rare to find intact objects in a forest linnorm's cache, although there is usually plenty of gold and silver.

Ecology:  While forest linnorms are omnivorous, they prefer the flesh of what they consider attractive creatures such as stags, eagles, swans, humans, and demihumans.  The linnorms' natural enemies are giants, who hunt them for food and their hides.  Human heroes are also the bane of forest linnorms.

Body length ranges from 1-4 (wyrmling) to 81-88 (great wyrm)
tail length ranges from 4-14 (wyrmling) to 167-180(great wyrm)
Breath weapon is 1d4+1/age category
Magic resistance begins at 15% at age 5 and increases by 5%/age category thereafter

Wizard spell progression:
Age 1-3 Nil
Age 4 = 1
Age 5 = 2
Age 6 = 3
Age 7 = 4
Age 8 = 4/1
Age 9 = 4/2
Age 10 = 4/3
Age 11 = 4/4
Age 12 = 4/4/1



From Dragon #182:

*Forest Linnorm*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any non-arctic forest
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 (5% of 2)
ARMOR CLASS: 1 (base)
MOVEMENT: 24, SW 12
HIT DICE: 11 (base)
THAC0: 9 (at 11 HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite + special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon, surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable
SIZE: H (21' base)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: Variable

A forest linnorm is repugnant, more resembling a huge, grotesque snake than a dragon. Its slender, serpentine body is a mottled green and brown that masks its form amid the undergrowth and fallen trees of the forest. This linnorm, though not as smart as other Norse dragons, possesses a great ego, a natural cunning, and an unending cruelty. It considers
no creature above it and hates all creatures possessing above an animal intelligence, especially beautiful creatures. 

At birth, a forest linnorm could be easily confused with a large green lizard, as it has four legs and a thin, whiplike tail. As the creature matures, the weak legs atrophy, disappearing by the time the linnorm has reached the young adult stage. Brown splotches begin to appear on its now snakelike body. Its scales become larger and thicker, offering it greater protection, and its head widens. Forest linnorms speak the language of all animals in addition to their own language, but they are not able to converse with humans and demihumans.

Combat: Forest linnorms usually trap their victims, mimicking the sounds of injured animals to draw humans and demihumans close to their hiding places (they hide well enough to gain a +2 bonus to surprise rolls). Older specimens use illusions to further deceive their victims,
springing when the victims draw near. Their prized targets are humans, as they view humans as beautiful--and therefore objects to be injured, punished, and slain. Forest linnorms often choose to use their breath weapon to weaken powerful opponents before physically attacking or using additional illusions. They tend to fight to the death, viewing no opponents as too strong and no threat as too dangerous. 

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: A forest linnorm's breath weapon is a 1'-wide gout of heavy liquid that extends in a straight line 6' for each age category the dragon has attained. For example, a juvenile's breath weapon extends 24'. The liquid is very acidic in nature, causing
damage and acting as a wither spell to a randomly selected limb of a victim (the victim is not allowed a saving throw). Forest linnorms cast level of ability equal to five plus their combat modifier. They are limited to learning only illusion/phantasm spells.

Forest linnorms are born with a constant invisibility to animals power.  At the young stage, they are able to warp wood, and at the young adult stage, they can cause plant growth. Upon reaching the mature adult stage they are able to cause spikegrowth, and at the very old stage, they can use sticks to snakes. Wyrms and great wyrms are able to pass plant.
Except for invisibility to animals, each of these abilities is usable three times a day.

Habitat/Society: Forest linnorms are found in wooded areas throughout the Norse lands. No more than one such linnorm will be discovered within a 100-square-mile area, as they are territorial and will not willingly permit another of their kind within their designated home. The only exception to this is when these linnorms mate.  

Forest linnorms are poor parents. When offspring are born, the male returns to its own territory. The mother forces the young dragons to leave her territory when they pass from the hatchling stage.

These monsters make their lairs in densely overgrown sections of forest, wrapping their serpentine bodies about the bases of trees and bushes to become virtually undistinguishable from the roots and trunks.  They prefer temperate weather but are able to stand great extremes of heat and cold. They usually store their treasure in hollow tree trunks.  These linnorms prize gems and jewelry, but only so they can break them later. It is rare to find intact objects in a linnorm's cache, although there is usually plenty of gold and silver.

Ecology: While forest linnorms are omnivorous, they prefer the flesh of what they consider attractive creatures, such as stags, eagles, swans, humans, and demihumans.

Forest linnorms' natural enemies are thursir and kalevanpojat, giants who live in the wilderness and hunt the dragons for food and for their hides. Human heroes are also the bane of forest linnorms, out of the need to preserve civilization from the dragons' ravages.


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2007)

Started it up in Homebrews.

Remember the following while determining some of the statistics:

Ability scores of existing linnorms:
Corpse Tearer (G): Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
Dread (C): Str 40, Dex 8, Con 31, Int 15, Wis 22, Cha 21
Gray (H): Str 24, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 17
Sea (G): Str 38, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 21
Swamp (G): Str 32, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 15, Wis 20, Cha 18
Flame (G): Str 35, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 20
Frost (G): Str 32, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 19
Rain (H):  Str 28, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 17

Standard linnorm skills:
Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Standard linnorm feats:
Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch
Other feats: Ability Focus, Cleave, Power Attack, metamagic feats

Treasure: Standard or double standard (the 20-HD Dread and 13-HD Gray have standard rather than double)

Advancement: Advancement ranges only within the same size category (exception: sea linnorm). 

All linnorms speak (at least) Draconic and Abyssal.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 12, 2007)

> It is rare to find intact objects in a linnorm's cache, although there is usually plenty of gold and silver.




Treasure: Double coins, 50% goods, 50% items

It doesn't appear that these dragons can fly.

When using spells, is limited to school of Illusion.

Breath weapon: line of acid
We should see about the "withering" ability, as well.

Low Int, but cunning, with large egos.
Proposed abilities: Str 28, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18



> Forest linnorms are born with a constant invisibility to animals power. At the young stage, they are able to warp wood, and at the young adult stage, they can cause plant growth. Upon reaching the mature adult stage they are able to cause spikegrowth, and at the very old stage, they can use sticks to snakes. Wyrms and great wyrms are able to pass plant.



Looks like special abilities will be druidic in nature. (no pun intended)



> They tend to fight to the death, viewing no opponents as too strong and no threat as too dangerous.



Endurance and Diehard as feats?


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

I updated Homebrews  with the suggested ability scores.

I'm not sure about Endurance and Diehard.  They offer a rather limited benefit, and it can still be ferocious and fight to the death without them.   If you'd like to go that route, though, we might consider the ferocity ability of the dire boar (and others) instead:

Ferocity (Ex): A dire boar is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying.

+17 natural armor?  The similarly-sized rain has +16, and the gray has +19.  It sits between the two in HD, but is closer to the rain.

Here's the relevant info from the wither limb spell that we can incorporate into the breath weapon...



> Fortitude negates
> 
> You choose to wither either the arms or the legs of a humanoid. Withered legs force a subject to fall prone while at the same time reducing the subject's land speed to 5 feet. Withered arms make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components.
> 
> A withered limb can be restored to normal by a successful dispel magic from a spellcaster of a level higher than the level of the wither limb caster.




For the spell-like abilities, we can extrapolate the following:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will -- hide from animals; 3/day -- plant growth, spike growth, warp wood. Caster level xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

We'll need a replacement for pass plant (I'd recommend tree stride).  Sticks to snakes is a non-core, Dragon magazine spell in 3e.  We can either drop it or extrapolate it into a separate spell-like ability.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Ferocity (Ex): A dire boar is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying.




Let's grant it Ferocity.  That's better than using up the Feat slots.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> +17 natural armor?  The similarly-sized rain has +16, and the gray has +19.  It sits between the two in HD, but is closer to the rain.




+17 sounds good to me.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For the spell-like abilities, we can extrapolate the following:
> 
> Spell-Like Abilities: At will -- hide from animals; 3/day -- plant growth, spike growth, warp wood. Caster level xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
> 
> We'll need a replacement for pass plant (I'd recommend tree stride).  Sticks to snakes is a non-core, Dragon magazine spell in 3e.  We can either drop it or extrapolate it into a separate spell-like ability.




I was also thinking of Tree Stride, so let's use that.  Sticks to Snakes is a fun spell; we'll see what SLA we can make out of it 

The text for the Wither Limb spell can be attached to the breath weapon, as an additional effect (nasty).  Can the creature choose what withers, or should we say equal, random chance of either arms or legs?


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Let's grant it Ferocity.  That's better than using up the Feat slots.




Great!



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> +17 sounds good to me.




I'll make it so.



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> I was also thinking of Tree Stride, so let's use that.  Sticks to Snakes is a fun spell; we'll see what SLA we can make out of it




Assuming a caster level equal to Hit Dice, it would look like this:

Sticks to Snakes (Sp):  A forest linnorm can turn up to two dead branches or other long slender pieces of wood (arrow shafts, sticks, staffs, and so on) into Huge vipers.  The object is entitled to a DC 17 Will save to avoid transformation.  Any snakes created by this spell do not attempt to harm the linnorm, and the linnorm can control their actions telepathically as a free action. Left to their own devices, the snakes attack whomever or whatever is near them, but while the linnorm controls them they can perform any stunt or action they are physically capable of doing. When reduced to 0 hit points or less, the snakes revert to their original, undamaged form.



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> The text for the Wither Limb spell can be attached to the breath weapon, as an additional effect (nasty).  Can the creature choose what withers, or should we say equal, random chance of either arms or legs?




I think random makes the most sense here.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sticks to Snakes (Sp): A forest linnorm can turn up to two dead branches or other long slender pieces of wood (arrow shafts, sticks, staffs, and so on) into Huge vipers. The object is entitled to a DC 17 Will save to avoid transformation. Any snakes created by this spell do not attempt to harm the linnorm, and the linnorm can control their actions telepathically as a free action. Left to their own devices, the snakes attack whomever or whatever is near them, but while the linnorm controls them they can perform any stunt or action they are physically capable of doing. When reduced to 0 hit points or less, the snakes revert to their original, undamaged form.




Looks pretty complete to me.  Let's add it!

Random on the withering is my vote, as well.

The description doesn't say anything about them flying, so I would say remove the fly speed and Crush ability.


----------



## freyar (Oct 18, 2007)

Don't all linnorms fly magically?


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Don't all linnorms fly magically?




Yes.  At least in 3e they do.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

How's this?

Breath Weapon (Su): 90-foot line of caustic liquid, once every 1d4 rounds; damage 12d4 acid, Reflex DC 21 half. Additionally, a creature damaged by the breath weapon must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or a random limb is withered. Withered legs force a subject to fall prone while at the same time reducing the subject's land speed to 5 feet. Withered arms make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components.  A withered limb can be restored to normal by a successful dispel magic or similar effect, with a dispe check DC equal to the linnorm's breath weapon DC. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yes. At least in 3e they do.



Well hey, now I know.  1/2 the battle, right? 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon (Su): 90-foot line of caustic liquid, once every 1d4 rounds; damage 12d4 acid, Reflex DC 21 half. Additionally, a creature damaged by the breath weapon must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or a random limb is withered. Withered legs force a subject to fall prone while at the same time reducing the subject's land speed to 5 feet. Withered arms make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components. A withered limb can be restored to normal by a successful dispel magic or similar effect, with a dispe check DC equal to the linnorm's breath weapon DC. The save DC is Constitution-based.




Looks good to me.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Well hey, now I know.  1/2 the battle, right?




Yo Joe!    

Actually, almost all of 'em have it.   The recent sea linnorm does not.

Those that do have it simply list fly as an at will spell-like ability, but also denote the flight on the speed line.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Those that do have it simply list fly as an at will spell-like ability, but also denote the flight on the speed line.



That would explain why I didn't see it in the original description 

Caster Level 12th for the SLAs?


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Caster Level 12th for the SLAs?




Sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Skills: 84
Feats: 4

Standard linnorm skills:
Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Standard linnorm feats:
Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch
Other feats: Ability Focus, Cleave, Power Attack, metamagic feats



> Forest linnorms caset spells and use their magical abiliteis at a level of ability equal to 5 plus their combat modifier. They are limited to learning only illusion/phantasm spells.




Spells: A forest linnorm can cast arcane spells as a 12th-level sorcerer, preferring spells of the illusion school.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Well, Multiattack is out 

How about for feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Flyby Attack, and either Snatch or a Metamagic feat?


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> How about for feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Flyby Attack, and either Snatch or a Metamagic feat?




Sounds good.  I prefer Snatch.    

Does the suggested spellcasting look OK?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sounds good.  I prefer Snatch.
> 
> Does the suggested spellcasting look OK?




Snatch it is, then.
Spellcasting text looks good.

Skills: we can do 6 at max rank (14 ranks)
I propose: Bluff, Concentration, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Listen, and Spot

Still need CR, and that will give us our SR.


----------



## Shade (Oct 23, 2007)

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known 
0 (6/day) -- ghost sound, 8 more
1st (7/day) -- color spray, disguise self, silent imate, ventriloquism, 1 more
2nd (7/day) -- blur, invisibility, mirror image, misdirection, 1 more
3rd (7/day) -- displacement, major image, 2 more
4th (7/day) -- greater invisibility, phantasmal killer, rainbow pattern 
5th (5/day) -- mirage arcana, persistent image
6th (3/day) -- permanent image


----------



## dhaga (Oct 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Typical Sorcerer Spells Known
> 0 (6/day) -- ghost sound, 8 more
> 1st (7/day) -- color spray, disguise self, silent imate, ventriloquism, 1 more
> 2nd (7/day) -- blur, invisibility, mirror image, misdirection, 1 more
> ...




1st level - additional spell -- Charm Person or Animate Rope (could use with dead vines to entangle foes)

2nd level - additional spell - Minor Image or See Invisibility

3rd level - additional spells - I'm not really sure on these.  Wind Wall and Deep Slumber, maybe?


----------



## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

Added cantrips and updated Homebrews.

We still need CR which will give us SR.

The rain linnorm is CR 14 with 2 less HD, but a caster level of 14.

The CR 16 Stygian linnorm has 18 HD.

I'm thinking this fella is in the CR 13-14 range.  Even though it has more HD than the rain, it has a lower damage output due to its single natural attack, and it has lower spellcaster level and less potent spell-like abilities.  Its withering breath and ferocity might offset it enough to keep it at CR 14.  Thoughts?


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

A few more things:



			
				MCA1 said:
			
		

> A forest linnorm resembles a huge, grotesque snake more than a dragon.  Its body is a mottled green and brown that masks its form in forest undergrowth.






			
				MCA1 said:
			
		

> These monsters make their lairs in densely overgrown forests, wrapping their bodies about trees and brushes, becoming virtually undistinguishable from roots and trunks.  They prefer temperate weather, but can stand great extremes.




Modified from the forest landwyrm...

Skills:  *They have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in forest environments. This bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 when the linnorm is immobile.




			
				MCA1 said:
			
		

> Forest linnorms trap prey by mimicking the sounds of injured animals (imposing a +2 bonus upon surprise rolls), and older specimens use illusisons to further deceive.




Modified from the blue dragon ability...

Sound Imitation (Ex): A forest linnorm can mimic the sound of injured animals, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a DC 19 Will save to detect the ruse.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## dhaga (Oct 24, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Skills:  *They have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in forest environments. This bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 when the linnorm is immobile.



Looks good.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Sound Imitation (Ex): A forest linnorm can mimic the sound of injured animals, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a DC 19 Will save to detect the ruse.  The save DC is Charisma-based.



Also good.

I vote for CR 13.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

Updated.   Are we finished?


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## dhaga (Oct 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated.   Are we finished?




Yes, this one looks done


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

Great!  Only one unconverted linnorm remains.


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## dhaga (Oct 26, 2007)

And that is...(drum roll, please)...


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

From Dragon #182:

*Linnorm, Land*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any non-arctic land
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 (5% of 2)
ARMOR CLASS: -1 (base)
MOVEMENT: 18, SW 12, Br 12
HIT DICE: 13 (base)
THAC0: 7 (at 13 HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws/1 bite/1 tail strike + special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d10/1d10/3d10/2d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Variable
SIZE: G (48' base)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: Variable

Land linnorms are driven solely by greed, and they enjoy twisting both humans and the land to their own corrupt desires.

Unlike many other linnorms, land linnorms have four legs, the forelimbs being useful for combat. The scales of hatchling land linnorms are small, green, and glisten like gems. As the linnorms age, the scales enlarge, lose their luster, and begin to change at the individual linnorm's whim from various shades of greens to browns to grays.

Land linnorms speak their own tongue as well as the languages of all Norse dragons. Land linnorms learn languages quickly. There is a 10% chance that a hatchling will be able to magically speak with all intelligent creatures. The chance to possess this ability increases 10% per age category of the linnorm.

Combat: Land linnorms are cautious, sizing up their intended victims before engaging them in combat. Land linnorms will sometimes follow a target for days-in a human or animal form if the linnorm is old enough to polymorph--before feeling it knows all the target's strengths and weaknesses and is ready to attack. Land linnorms carefully plot their every move before striking, usually beginning an assault with breath and spells before closing to attack with claws and bite. Land linnorms use their physical attacks only if they are certain they can best their victims. They opt to abandon targets that seem too dangerous. These linnorms prefer to attack small groups of humans and demihumans, avoiding large groups that might pose a threat. 

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: A land linnorm's breath weapon is a blast of heat 120' long, 5' wide at the lirmorm's mouth, and 40' wide at the base. All those caught within the cone must save vs. breath weapon for half damage. The searing heat instantly fatigues all those struck by it, whether or not they successfully save. Fatigued beings have their strength scores reduced by half (round down). Land linnorms' runes, selected at random or by the DM from the VCS, are always successfully cast.

Land linnorms are born able to cast transmute rock to mud and mud to rock each once a day. In addition, they gain other powers as they age, each usable three times a day: young--invisibility; young adult--dig; mature adult--polymorph self; very old--stone shape; wyrm--conjure earth elemental; great wyrm--earthquake.

Habitat/Society: Land linnorms are found in any non-arctic terrain, although they prefer hills near human communities. High perches allow them to watch the humans, noting any wealth leaving or entering the community. They make their lairs in caves; older linnorms use their stone shape ability to fashion their own homes, complete with traps and obstacles to kill trespassers.

Land linnorms typically join with others of their kind only to mate, the pair separating after the offspring have passed beyond the hatchling stage. The abandoned young linnorms are preyed upon by human and demihuman adventurers, giants, and other monsters of the land.

However, some land linnorms have been reported to join forces with others of their kind to attack a strong human or demihuman establishment or a group of humans too large for a single linnorm to consider taking on. Such alliances are usually brief, ending after the division of the spoils.

Land linnorms loathe humans and demihumans and go out of their way to kill them, as the linnorms are intensely jealous of the lesser creatures' ability to garner wealth. However, a few linnorms have been known to set aside their hatred, capturing humans with magical skills and forcing them to instruct the linnorms in new magic runes or to reveal treasures. In a few such cases, the linnorms have formed long-term partnerships with humans, with the linnorms receiving magical knowledge and material wealth while the humans are allowed to live as long as they serve their masters. Land linnorms are fond of wealth of any kind-gold, silver, gems, and especially magic.

Ecology: While land linnorms are capable of eating virtually anything, including stones, they prefer the flesh of maahisets and dverge. Land linnorms have no natural enemies.

Body length ranges from 1-12 (wyrmling) to 174-183 (great wyrm)
tail length ranges from 3-12 (wyrmling) to 162-171 (great wyrm)
Breath weapon is 1d12+1 plus 2d12+1/age category thereafter (max 23d12+12)
Magic resistance begins at 10% at age 1 and increases by 5%/age category thereafter

Land linnorms gain 1 rune at age 2 plus 1 rune thereafter (max 11)

The MC version is essentially identical, so I'm not going to retype it here.

Note that rune magic apparently comes from Viking Campaign Sourcebook.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Note that rune magic apparently comes from Viking Campaign Sourcebook.



Which I'm assumming VCS stands for. There was also a runic magic system in the Northern Reaches gazetteer for Mystara. Very nasty everytime you learnt a new rune you lost a permanent point of Con.

Anyway back to the conversion.

Breath Weapon that fatigues opponents even if they save for half damage - nasty. Although I assume that evasion would negate it.

Regards
Mortis


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## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon that fatigues opponents even if they save for half damage - nasty. Although I assume that evasion would negate it.




Agreed on the nasty, and evasion.  So rogues will be springy and feeling fine...and we'll have droopy fighters and wizards about.  Huff, puff...


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

13 HD, Gargantuan

Ability scores of similarly-sized linnorms:
Corpse Tearer (G): Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
Sea (G): Str 38, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 21
Swamp (G): Str 32, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 15, Wis 20, Cha 18
Flame (G): Str 35, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 20
Frost (G): Str 32, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 19


----------



## Mortis (Nov 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> 13 HD, Gargantuan
> 
> Ability scores of similarly-sized linnorms:
> Corpse Tearer (G): Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
> ...




Str 34, Dex 10, Con 28, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 19

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Looks good.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

Int 16 gives it 144 skill points.

Standard linnorms skills are?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Standard linnorm skills:
Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Standard linnorm feats:
Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch
Other feats: Ability Focus, Cleave, Power Attack, metamagic feats


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

For the runes, I wonder how closely the FRCS rune magic approximates the stuff from the VCS?

(Note:  I don't have the VCS, so I have no idea.    )


----------



## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Note:  I don't have the VCS, so I have no idea.    )



Neither do I 

I do have the Northern Reaches Gaz which has rune magic in, but its a my club and I wont get access to it until the weekend   

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

> Land linnorms are born able to cast transmute rock to mud and mud to rock each once a day. In addition, they gain other powers as they age, each usable three times a day: young--invisibility; young adult--dig; mature adult--polymorph self; very old--stone shape; wyrm--conjure earth elemental; great wyrm--earthquake.




Spell-Like Abilities:  At will--fly; 3/day--earthquake, invisibility, move earth, stone shape, summon monster ? (earth elementals only); 1/day--transmute mud to rock, transmute rock to mud.  Caster level Xth.

Note that linnorms lost their polymorph-related SLAs in the polymorph errata.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

Do those SLAs look OK?


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Anyone?  Bueller?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 3, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Do those SLAs look OK?



Yup

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Natural armor bonus?

Damage reduction X

Skills: 144
Standard linnorm skills:
Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Feats: 5 
Standard linnorm feats:
Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch
Other feats: Ability Focus, Cleave, Power Attack, metamagic feats

Breath Weapon (Su): 60-foot line of searing heat, once every 1d4 rounds; damage *xd12 * fire, Reflex DC 25 half. Additionally, a creature damaged by the breath weapon is fatigued. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Caster level for SLAs?


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## Mortis (Dec 3, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Natural armor bonus?



+24


> Damage reduction X



10/magic



> Skills: 144
> Standard linnorm skills:
> Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim



We can have 9 of them at max rank (16)



> Feats: 5
> Standard linnorm feats:
> Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch
> Other feats: Ability Focus, Cleave, Power Attack, metamagic feats



I'm tempted to make this a melee machine, so as well as the three standard feats - Cleave and Power Attack?



> Breath Weapon (Su): 60-foot line of searing heat, once every 1d4 rounds; damage *xd12 * fire, Reflex DC 25 half. Additionally, a creature damaged by the breath weapon is fatigued. The save DC is Constitution-based.



6d12 or maybe up it to 8d12?



> Caster level for SLAs?



15th

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Looks good.  I went with max ranks in all but Swim, since it gets +8 from swim speed and +12 from Str.

Updated Homebrews.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

We're back to the runes.

We could use the FRCS rune magic, as well as the runecaster prestige class, for inspiration.

Essentially, runes can contain any divine spell the caster knows and are triggered by touch.  An erase spell, targeted dispel magic, or a rogue with Disable Device can attempt to disarm a rune.

Runecasters gain additional powers, such as making their runes activated when read or passed.   They gain +1 divine spellcasting level per runecaster level.

So maybe....

Runes (Su):  A land linnorm does not gain spells like most other linnorms.  Instead, it may select up to 12 spells per day to inscribe as runes.  These spells must be selected from the cleric spell list and the X domains.   Inscribing a rune is a full-round action.  Once inscribed, a rune is activated by touch.   The save DCs for runes are equal to 10 + spell level + land linnorm's Wisdom modifier (15 + spell level for a typical land linnorm).  Caster level 17th?

An erase spell (DC 15 + linnorm's caster level) or a targeted dispel magic spell can disable a rune.  A rogue with Disable Device can attempt to disarm a rune as if it were a magic trap (DC 25 + spell level).

In all other respects, runes function as divine spells.


----------



## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Any thoughts on the runes?


----------



## freyar (Dec 11, 2007)

I haven't been doing much with the linnorms, but the runes sound right (even if that's not what the Vikings did. )


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Nice timing, I just dropped in.    

Destruction and Evil domains like the Gray and Corpse Tearer?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

Sure, why not?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

CR 19?  It is slightly less powerful than a gray due to the more limited spellcasting.


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## Mortis (Dec 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> CR 19?  It is slightly less powerful than a gray due to the more limited spellcasting.



It's about what I was thinking, I was thinking somewhere in the region of 18-19.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

Finished?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Finished?





			
				Homebrews said:
			
		

> Full Attack: Bite +21 melee (4d6+12) and 2 claws +19 melee (*claw* 2d8+6) and tail slap +19 melee (2d8+18)




Just remove 'claw' and its finished.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Just remove 'claw' and its finished.




How'd that get in there?


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2008)

*Centaur-Kin, Zebranaur*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate plains
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivorous
[NTELLIGENCE:  Average (8-10)
TREASURE: M, Q (I, Mx10)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-16 (50-80)
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 3+4
THACO: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 to 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: ld4/ld4 and weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: +1 with bow
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (6' and taller)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE:
Normal: 175
Chief 270
Shaman: 420

Zebranaurs have the upper body of a human and the lower body of a zebra. A zebranaur's upper body is normally brown, without the characteristic black-on-white stripes that cover its lower body. Many have a short mane of coarse black bristles running from the middle of the lower back up to the nape of the neck. Most favor a spiky hairstyle, but others prefer  the traditional styles of the local humans.

Zebranaurs usually wear an individually embroidered square of supple leather that covers the chest and is tied around the waist and neck with leather thongs. They adorn themselves with jewelry made of wood and bone, using feathers and bright seeds to color their designs. Zebranaurs prize brass and copper jewelry and will trade well-made fringed garments or feathered spears for these items. 

Zebranaurs speak the common tongue and may know one or more other spoken languagees, but few learn to read or write.

Combat: Because of rneir long-standing tradition of bow hunting, all zebranaurs gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with all bows except crossbows. Not all zebranaurs use bows, however.  When a band is encountered, 30% use spears, 20% scimitar and spear, and 30% scimitar and bow. Even if unarmed, zebranaurs can attack with their front hooves for ld4 points of damage each. Zebranaurs never wear armor. 

Zebranaur society does not discriminate against its female members, and females will make up 30% of any encountered band. In a group of more than 10 zebranaurs, there is a 50%chance that the group includes a chief and a shaman. 

Habitat/Society: Zebranaurs are nomadic by nature, and their temporary camps are well guarded by 8 to 12 zebranaurs armed with scimitars and bows. They are tribal creatures who remain close to nature and are most at home in the wild, much like the humans who live nearest them. Zebranaurs tribes are led by a chief of 4+4 HD and AC 6.

An average tribe numbers 50 to 80 members, including 20% children and 30% females.  Males are equally responsible for raising the young, preparing meals, teaching, and performing other traditionally domestic duties.

A tribe usually has one shaman of 4th or 5th level and three or four shamans of 1st to 3rd level.  These are most often armed with quarterstaves.

Zebranaurs have an almost photographic memory for abstract designs and shapes.  They cannot normally read or write Common, but they paint intricately whorled patterns on tanned leather to record their history.  The oldest shaman keeps these records safe and passes on the knowledge to the next generation.

Most zebranaurs paint their upper bodies with dark stripes or patterns, using vegetable dyes to enhance the effect of their camouflaged lower bodies.  New markings are added yearly to commemmorate achievements, battles, or loves.  Some tribes engage in ritual tattooing when foals come of age.  One southern tribe has developed this tattooing to a fine art.

Ecology:  Zebranaurs hunt most types of small game, supplementing this diet with roots and berries.  They are more pacifistic than wemics, with whom they do not get along very well.  If a tribe of wemics moves into their territory, zebranaurs will often move out.

The typical zebranaur life span is 50-60 years.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995).


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Compare to 2e standard centaur stats...

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate forest 
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivorous 
INTELLIGENCE: Low to average (5-10) 
TREASURE: M, Q (D, I, T) 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral or chaotic good 
NO. APPEARING: 1-8 
ARMOR CLASS: 5 (4) 
MOVEMENT: 18 
HIT DICE: 4 
THAC0: 17 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6 and weapon 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: L(8'-9' tall) 
MORALE: Elite (13-14) 
XP VALUE: 175 
Centaur leader 270 
Centaur priest 420


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2008)

So maybe start with centaur stats, drop one HD, make them a little stronger (to account for THAC0 being the same), and a little less natural armor?

That gives us

Size/Type: Large Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 3d8+X (26 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +X Dex, +2? natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: 	+3/+X
Attack:	Scimitar +X melee () or composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) +5 ranged (2d6+4/×3) or spear ...
Full Attack: ...
Space/Reach: 	10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: 	—
Special Qualities: 	Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: 	Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: 	Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11 ???
Skills: 	Listen +3, Move Silently +4, Spot +3, Survival +2 ??
Feats: 	Dodge, Weapon Focus (hoof)
Environment: 	Temperate forests
Organization: 	Solitary, company (5-8), troop (8-18 plus 1 leader of 2nd-5th level), or tribe (20-150 plus 30% noncombatants plus 10 3rd-level sergeants, 5 5th-level lieutenants, and 1 leader of 5th-9th level) ??
Challenge Rating: 	X
Treasure: 	Standard
Alignment: 	Usually neutral
Advancement: 	By character class
Level Adjustment: 	+X


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

They are also 2 feet shorter, smarter on average, and their hooves deal less damage.

Let's increase the Int to 10, and stick with 1d4 for the hooves.

Alternatively, let's look at the centaur's racial modifiers:
+8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. 

I'm not sure I like the zebranaur being even stronger (despite the same THAC0), especially since they're smaller.  What if we increased Dex instead and went the Weapon Finesse route?

+6 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Wisdom?


----------



## freyar (Jan 10, 2008)

Sounds good to me.  1d4 for hoof attacks sounds fine.  Weapon finesse as a bonus feat, or a regular feat?


----------



## Shade (Jan 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Jan 10, 2008)

I'd say let's go with Ride-by Attack as a bonus feat and Weapon Finesse and Point Blank Shot as the other two.  What do you think?


----------



## Shade (Jan 14, 2008)

Hmmm...I'm not sure they really need a bonus feat.  Also, Ride-By Attack is more for riders.  

The other two feats look good, though Weapon Finesse would only apply to its hooves as scimitars aren't finessable.


----------



## freyar (Jan 15, 2008)

Points taken.  I guess I was thinking of doing something like we did for the manotaur w/Ride-by Atk.  Maybe weapon focus (scimitar) is better than weapon finesse.


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2008)

Yeah, we gave the manotaur a special ability to allow it to take "rider feats".  But it is quite a bit more powerful than these fellas, and I wouldn't want the centaur variants to completely outshine the originals.

Weapon Focus would work fine, but what if we played up their role as hunters and gave them Track?

For skills, how about:

Hide 1, Listen 2, Move Silently 2, Spot 2, Survival 5?


----------



## freyar (Jan 15, 2008)

Track sounds great.  The skills look good, too.


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2008)

CR 2?  (Centaurs are 4HD and CR 3)

A zebranaur is about 6 feet tall and weighs about X pounds.  (Centaurs are 7 feet tall and weigh about 2,100 pounds)

Zebranaurs speak Common and xx (Halfling)?  (Original text mentioned Common; centaurs speak Sylvan and Elven)

A zebranaur's favored class is ranger (?). Zebranaur clerics worship Skerrit(?) and can choose any two of the following domains: Animal, Good, or Plant (assuming Skerrit).

Automatic Languages: Common, XX. Bonus Languages: XX.  (Centaur has Automatic Languages: Sylvan, Elven. Bonus Languages: Common, Gnome, Halfling.)


----------



## freyar (Jan 18, 2008)

CR2, 1800lb, Halfling, ranger, Skerrit all sound good.

So automatic languages should be Common & Halfling with Gnome, Sylvan, and Elven as bonus languages.  That puts them a little more in the plains than the forests, I think.


----------



## Shade (Jan 18, 2008)

Updated.

Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Jan 18, 2008)

Don't see anything obvious missing.  Next!


----------



## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

*Centaur-Kin, Dorvesh*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate hill or mountians
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivorous
[NTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: M, Q (B)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-12 (80-120)
ARMOR CLASS: 4 (7)
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4
THACO: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 hoof or 1 weapon
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6/1d6 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +4 save vs. spell and poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (5' and taller)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE:
Normal: 270
Chief 420

Dorvesh have the upper body of a dwarf and the lower body of a donkey. Their donkey hindquarters are covered with coarse hair which varies from light brown to black.  The dwarfen upper half is usually well-muscled and earthy brown.  They retain the full beards of their dwarven cousins.

Dorvesh clans are distrustful of outsiders, but they are not overly aggressive.  They will fight only to defend themselves or their homesteads.  When not expecting combat, dorvesh wear simple tunics of tough leather or hide; otherwise, they wear chain mail vests and carry shields.  They wear their hair long and braided to keep it out of the way when they work in the mines. 

Since dorvesh avoid contact with other races as much as possible, they speak only their own dialect of dwarvish.  Anyone who speaks dwarvish has a 75% chance to understand the dorvesh dialect.

Combat: Dorvesh do not use magic of any kind, and only rarely to they use magical items.  Dorvesh have an inherited resistance of spells and poison, and they can detect the slop of a passageway (1-3 on 1d6) and new tunnel construction (1-4 on 1d6).  They have 30-foot infravision.

Although not warlike, dorvesh are well-organized and disciplined when forced to fight.  They aer intuitive strategists.  They wear chain mail vests and tough leather barding, and they carry shields. 

Dorvesh wield a variety of weapons: hammers (35%), swords (50%), and light crossbows (15%).  If unarmed, dorvesh attack with their front hooves, inflicting 1d6 damage with each. 

In a group of more than eight dorvesh, there is a 60% chance that the clan chief will be with the group.  The chief has 5 HD and AC 4.

Habitat/Society: An average dorvesh clan numbers 80 to 120 members, 20% of them children and 20% females. Dorvesh females are skilled fighters who will fight beside the males if the homestead is being attacked.

Dorvesh live in towns constructed aroudn their mine entrances.  Since dorvesh do not construct deep mines, they sometimes have to move to a new site.  Though their settlements are well constructed, they are not permanent.  Abandoned dorvesh settlements may occasionally be found in remote valleys, often inhabited by goblins or kobolds.

Dorvesh produce all their own metalwork.  These items are sturdy and reliable, but htey are less likely to be engraved or decorated than similar dwarven items.  Dorvesh prefer the classic lines of a plain hammer, chisel, or axe.  They hoard precious metals and gems, gold being particularly prized.

Dorvesh are a stubborn and tenacious people, often considered deliberately obtuse by outsiders.  Unlike their dwarf counterparts, the dorvesh do not wage war against orcs, goblins, giants, or drow, preferring to remain detached from the other races.

Ecology: Though dorvesh are skilled miners and metal-workers, they rarely sell the goods they produce.  Thus limited in commerce, they hunt their own food and cultivate mushrooms and tubers to support their diets.

Dorvesh usually live from 150 to 200 years.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995).


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

First zebranaur and now these.  I think there is an excess of centaur-kin! 

Monstrous humanoid, then, and Large.  Put Int at 8 like centaurs?  Should we just apply dwarven racial ability bonuses/penalties to the centaur?  That would give Str 18, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 9.

I think we should use the dwarven +2 racial bonus vs poison and spells/spell-like effects.  That seems clear from the original.  

Regarding "they can detect the slop of a passageway (1-3 on 1d6) and new tunnel construction (1-4 on 1d6)," should we give them stonecutting?  

Also, it seems clear that these should not get attack bonuses against giants, goblins, etc.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> First zebranaur and now these.  I think there is an excess of centaur-kin!




Oh, most certainly.  In fact, 2 more are waiting in the queue.

Most of the rest you mentioned makes sense.  Here are the dwarf traits, minus those you suggested we exclude:

+2 Constitution, –2 Charisma. 
A dwarf ’s base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. 
Darkvision out to to 60 feet. 
Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Dwarves have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes. 
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. 
Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf has a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). 
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here. 
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here. 
+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. 
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. 
Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, Undercommon. 
Favored Class: Fighter. 

Centaur's racial modifiers:
+8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. 

Applying the dwarf's +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma yields:
+8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma. 

Which yields the same results as your suggested stat modification above.  

About the only other thing I'd change is to drop stability.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> About the only other thing I'd change is to drop stability.




Right, I forgot about that.  I also think we might want to drop the weapon familiarity, since these guys are supposed to be pretty peaceful (and there's no mention of exotic weaponry).


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Right, I forgot about that.  I also think we might want to drop the weapon familiarity, since these guys are supposed to be pretty peaceful (and there's no mention of exotic weaponry).




Good point.


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

Looking pretty good.  Does it need anything besides flavor and tactics?


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looking pretty good.  Does it need anything besides flavor and tactics?




Added that now.  I think all that's lacking is weight.  A centaur is about 7 feet tall and weighs about 2,100 pounds.  A dorvesh is only 5 feet tall, and donkeys weigh considerably less than horses.  Any ideas?


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

Do you just want to scale it down to 1500lb?  Or make it a little heavier because dwarves are stocky?  I'd just say go with 1500 because it's easy, though.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

1,500 sounds fine.

We should change the feats and skills, as they're just copied directly from the centaur.

Skills: Listen +3, Move Silently +4, Spot +3, Survival +2 
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Focus (hoof)

Dwarves have...

Skills: Appraise +2, Craft (blacksmithing) +2, Craft (stonemasonry) +2, Listen +2, Spot +2
Feats: Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe)

Maybe...

Skills: Appraise 1, Craft (blacksmithing) 2, Listen 1, Profession (miner) 2, Spot 1
Feats: Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (longsword)


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

I like that.  Do you think Prof(mining) goes along as well with stonecutting as Craft (stonemasonry) does?


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I like that.  Do you think Prof(mining) goes along as well with stonecutting as Craft (stonemasonry) does?




Probably not, although the text really focused on mining and crafting metal over dealing with stone.  We could always do one rank in each.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

I think mining works well enough.  You need to understand a lot about how stone and earth works to keep the mine stable...


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## Shade (Jan 31, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2008)

Think so!


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## Shade (Feb 1, 2008)

*Centaur-Kin, Gnoat*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate or tropical hill or mountians
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivorous
[NTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: M, Q (I)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 3-12 (100-300)
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 3+1
THACO: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6 (by weapon)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Rear kick (1d6)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +4 save vs. spell and poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5' and taller)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE:
Normal: 270
Chief 420
Illusionist: 420

A gnoat has the upper body of a gnome and the lower body of a large mountain goat. Gnoats usually have brown skin, varying in shade from tan to a deep chestnut.  The shaggy coat on the goat hindquarters als varies in color, being brown, black, or gray with a white or cream underside.  Hair is the same color as the coat and is usually worn short by both males and females.  Hooves are usually black or very dark brown.

Male gnoats have beards which match the color of the goat hindquarters.  Beards are kept fairly short and often are trimmed to form elaborate designs.  Most gnoats have blue eyes, ranging from light, cool shades to deep cobalt blue, but a few individuals have brown or green eyes.

Clothing usually consists of shirts and jackets of cotton or leather, and hats of various design.  Gnoats tend to avoid very bright colors, but they do wear clothes of many differing shades.  A favorite garment among gnoats is a patchwork jacket, with swatches of many different colors and materials.  These jackets are very strongly constructed and act as padded armor.  Jewelry, when worn, consists of carved wooden pendants and bracelets. 

Gnoats speak gnomish and common.  Many gnoats can communicate with burrowing mammals, but a few clans have lost this ability.

Combat: On the whole, gnoats are peaceful, although they are wary of strangers until they prove themselves worthy.  Gnoats will defend themselves if attacked, and the majority of males are proficient with weapons.  Females rarely fight unless directly threatened.

Gnoats usually arm themselves with spears or clubs, and at least half of any group carries short bows.  If unarmed, gnoats will kick with their rear hooves.  This single attack causes 1d6 points of damage. 

Like gnomes, gnoats are resistant to spells and poison, receiving a +4 bonus to their saving throws. 

Any group encountered may be the entourage fo the clan chief and a 3rd-level illusionist (15% chance).  If so, 2-8 additional gnoats accompany the group.  The chief wears an elaborately decorated matching jacket and hat, and he carries a shield bearing the clan emblem.  Typical emblems are horns, mountains, trees, or tools.  The clan illusionist normally wears a plain black tunic and black leather skull cap.

Habitat/Society: For most of the year, gnoat clans inhabit cave systems in the lower foothills of high mountain ranges.  They spend their time hunting and farming in order to produce enough food for the winter.  During the winter months, gnoats usually keep to caverns deep within the mountains, where they have stockpiles of grain, cured meat, and honey.  Gnoat clans have 100 to 300 members, of which 40% are females and 10% children.  Each clan is led by a chief (5+1 HD, AC 5, THAC0 15) and advised by 1 to 4 illuisionists of levels 1-3.

Ecology: Gnoats are excellent wood-carvers and sculptors of stone.  During the winter months, they develop their arts and produce many wonderful pieces ranging from delicately carved wooden animals and fruits small enough to fit in the palm of one's hand, to bold stone statues larger than a full-sized goat.

Gnoats leave their warm caverns in spring and attempt to trade some of their sculptures for pottery, metalwork, and fabrics.  They do not stray far from their homesteads but wait for traveling merchants to cross the passes in their mountain homes.  The gnoats approach merchants cautiously at first, but gradually build firm friendships. Some traders keep the gnoats' whereabouts secret in return for a ready supply of beautiful carvings each spring.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995).


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## Shroomy (Feb 2, 2008)

Geez, how many centaur-kin did 2e produce?

Well, I would start with a 3HD, Medium monstrous humanoid.  I would give it the gnome's speak to burrowing animals ability, keep the +4 bonus to saves versus poison and spells (as well as SLAs), give it Craft (stoncutting) and Craft (woodworking) as racial skills, keep the rear kick, and finally give it a favored class of wizard (illusionist), or going with 3.5e gnomes, bard.

Also, while its not mentioned in the description, its mountain goat half should give it some sort of mobility in hilly or mountainous terrain.


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Geez, how many centaur-kin did 2e produce?




I'm waiting for the halfling-St. Bernard version.  

The rest looks like quite a good start!


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'm waiting for the halfling-St. Bernard version.




Nah, the halfling's combined with a pony.  Maybe you can combine an orc with the dog.    



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> The rest looks like quite a good start!




Agreed.  

Shall we apply the gnome's racial modifiers (-2 Str, +2 Cha) to the traditional centaur, and downsize it to Medium?

That would give us:  Str 8, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11

Shall we drop stonecunning and go with some of the gnome's 3e traits?

Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons. 

+2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. 

Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects, such as the Spell Focus feat. 

+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears). 

+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants). 

+2 racial bonus on Listen checks. 

+2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2008)

Hmm, aren't ponies too big for the halfling version?  Must be those oversized 4e halflings! 

The rest sounds like the way to go.


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Favored class wizard (illusionist)?



> Clothing usually consists of shirts and jackets of cotton or leather, and hats of various design. Gnoats tend to avoid very bright colors, but they do wear clothes of many differing shades. A favorite garment among gnoats is a patchwork jacket, with swatches of many different colors and materials. These jackets are very strongly constructed and act as padded armor. Jewelry, when worn, consists of carved wooden pendants and bracelets.






> They spend their time hunting and farming in order to produce enough food for the winter.






> Gnoats are excellent wood-carvers and sculptors of stone. During the winter months, they develop their arts and produce many wonderful pieces ranging from delicately carved wooden animals and fruits small enough to fit in the palm of one's hand, to bold stone statues larger than a full-sized goat.






> Gnoats leave their warm caverns in spring and attempt to trade some of their sculptures for pottery, metalwork, and fabrics. They do not stray far from their homesteads but wait for traveling merchants to cross the passes in their mountain homes. The gnoats approach merchants cautiously at first, but gradually build firm friendships. Some traders keep the gnoats' whereabouts secret in return for a ready supply of beautiful carvings each spring.




Craft (woodworking), Diplomacy, Profession (weaver), Sense Motive, and Survival as class skills?

Change gnome racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) to Craft (woodworking)?


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 5, 2008)

If you're going to make illusionist favored class, then it doesn't make sense to give a penalty to Intelligence.


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> If you're going to make illusionist favored class, then it doesn't make sense to give a penalty to Intelligence.




Good point.  I don't really see a need for the Int penalty. It was simply ported over from the centaur's scores.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2008)

So let's drop the Int penalty...

Should we bump the AC to account for the patchwork jacket acting as padded armor?  Or drop the natural armor?

Let's also add Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft as a class skill and give one rank to each of the suggested ones.

I'm fine with switching the racial bonus to woodworking.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> So let's drop the Int penalty...




Done.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Should we bump the AC to account for the patchwork jacket acting as padded armor?  Or drop the natural armor?




Let's just bump it by 1.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Let's also add Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft as a class skill and give one rank to each of the suggested ones.




Added Spellcraft, and assigned two ranks to each since skills doubled after dropping the Int penalty.

Updated.


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

Have we dropped the gnome SLAs, like speak with burrowing animals, or are we keeping them?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Have we dropped the gnome SLAs, like speak with burrowing animals, or are we keeping them?




Oops!  I had no intention of dropping them, but apparenlty lost them in cut n' paste.  I've added them back.


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

Ok, then feats: Negotiator and maybe Dodge or Athletic?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

Updated.

I went with Dodge and Negotiator.

CR 2?

Some research shows that an adult mountain goat weighs an average of 150-300 pounds.  Gnomes weigh 40 to 45 pounds.

So maybe 350 pounds?


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

I could almost see CR 1, but I guess CR 2 is better.  Why don't we say 250-350 lb?  And then done, I guess.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

The last of the centaur-kin!

*Centaur-Kin, Ha'pony*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any temperate 
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Community
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivorous
[NTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: M, (I)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
NO. APPEARING: 2-8 (80-150)
ARMOR CLASS: 7 or 6
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 2+2
THACO: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: +3 with bows and slings
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 save vs. spell and poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (4 1/2-5' tall)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE:
Normal: 175
Mayor 270

Ha'poines have the upper body of a halfling combined with the lower body of a pony. Their pony hindquarters are varying shades of brown and chestnut, with some grays.  In some tribes, the mayor has a piebald coat.  Ha'poines wear brightly colored shirts and tunics, and the majority braid their hair and tails with many-colored ribbons.  Their complexions are weather-beaten, with hair varying from sandy to dark brown.

Ha'ponies speak halfling and common.

Combat: Ha'ponies are peace-loving creatures, but will fight ferociously in defense of their homes and families.  Like halflings, they are skilled with the sling and shortbow, receing a +3 bonus to attack rolls with those weapons.  Ha'ponies gain a +2 bonus on their saving throws vs. spell and poison due to the natural resistance shared with their halfling cousins.

Ha'ponies do not normally wear armor, but each village usually has a militia with 20 to 30 members who wear studded leather armor (jerkins and barding; AC 6).  In their villages, ha'ponies do not normally carry weapons, except for the militia.  These stalwarts are usually armed with short swords and slings, or short swords and short bows. 

When outside the village, ha'ponies are usually armed with short swords or spears.  In addition, 50% of the group is armed with slings or short bows.  There is a 30% chance that a group encountered outside a village will be militia on patrol. 

The mayor very rarely (5%) leaves the village, but if so he or she will wear a chain mail vest and carry a short sword and short bow.  The mayor has 4+2 HD, AC 5, and THAC0 17.

Habitat/Society: Ha'pony villages usually number between 80 and 150 individuals.  Of this number, 15% are young and 30% are females.  Ha'pony females do not normally fight, but if the village is threatened they will defend their homes and children with slings and daggers.

The village has a mayor, but most important decisions are made by a council of elders known as "The Circle of Oak."  In extreme cases, the Circle cna remove a mayor from office and exile the unfortunate ha'pony.

Ha'ponies are a cheerful people who are briefly wary of outsiders.  They take pleasure in simple crafts and in nature, but they do not have the great love of food which characterizes their hafling cousins.

Ecology: The main fare of a ha'pony is fruit, supplemented by cereals.  They make up to 20 different varieites of bread, each community having its own specialty.  Ha'ponies occasionally hunt game birds such as pheasants and partridges.

Ha'ponies have a life span of approximately 120 years.  They live in small family clusters within the village community.  They don't breed often, but once a child is born it is lovingly cared for and spoiled by all its relatives.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995).


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

Ok, I could excuse gnoat as a name, but ha'pony?  And I still say ponies are too big! 

Apply halfling ability modifiers to the centaur as before?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Ok, I could excuse gnoat as a name, but ha'pony?  And I still say ponies are too big!




It makes me think of Nelson from the Simpsons..."Ha ha!  Pony!"



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Apply halfling ability modifiers to the centaur as before?




Yep, and downsizing to Medium again yields...

Str 8, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11

Here are 3.5 halfling traits...

+2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks. 
+1 racial bonus on all saving throws. 
+2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear. This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general. 
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings. 
+2 racial bonus on Listen checks. 
Automatic Languages: Common, Halfling. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc. 
Favored Class: Rogue.


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2008)

Sounds good.  Not much else to do on this one.  Should we make the example one of the militia with studded leather, short sword, and sling or short bow?  No natural armor?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I bumped Con to 13 to account for the 2*+2* HD.

Let's drop natural armor and go with studded leather in the stats.  

Extend bonus on thrown weapons to shortbow as well?

Point Blank Shot for the feat?

Jump 1, Listen 1, Move Silently 1, Spot 1, Survival 1?


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Extend bonus on thrown weapons to shortbow as well?




Yes, and I like the rest.  Weight?  A little less than the gnoat?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Yes, and I like the rest.  Weight?  A little less than the gnoat?




Actually, probably more as I'd assume a pony weighs more than a mountain goat.   I found a site that said the average weight of a pony is 600-750 pounds.  Add that to a halfling's weight and we get 630-785 pounds.  Sound reasonable?

CR 1?

Treasure M (I)...

I:
3-18 100s of platinum pieces: 30%
2-20 gems: 55%
1-12 jewelry: 50%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 1: 15%

M:
2-8 gold pieces per individual

Since I believe the parentheses indicates "in lair", we can probably just go with standard and note in the flavor text that most only carry their gear and a few gold pieces.  Sound OK?


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2008)

Let's keep the weight on the low end, since halflings are supposed to be small, darn it!    630-700 lb?

CR 1 and Standard treasure are good.


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

Updated


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2008)

I think these are done.  I think I'll go find some good bread now.


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

Sweet!  I believe that leaves only one centaur to convert, and it belongs in a different thread (the sea centaur from Dragon Magazine).


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

*Gibberling, Brood (Far Realm)*
Climate/Terrain:  Special
Freq:  Very rare
Org:  Clan
Activity cycle:  Night
Diet: Carnivorous
Int:  Very (11-12)
Treasure: Nil (E)
Alignment:  Chaotic neutral
# App:  1-4
AC: 8
Movement: 12
HD:  4+2
THAC0: 16
# Att:  1 + special
Dmg/At:  1d4+4 (bite)
SA: Gibbering
SD: nil
MR: nil
Size: M (3' tall)
Morale: Elite (13)
XP: 950

Gibberlings (described in the Monstrous Manual) gibber.  They also jabber, scream, howl, and chitter.  It is now believed that they are the unholy remnants of unfortunate humanoids who have been altered by insane agencies not of this world; they are the progeny of the brood gibberlings.

Brood gibberlings are pale, deformed, and twisted humanoids, possessing slavering maws like pits, manes of filthy black hair like evil halos, and eyes filled with a malignant cunning.  Most disturbing is the way that a brood gibberling's flesh visible moves as small creatures, called gibberslugs, skitter beneath its skin.  Behind these "skinpets", a sickening trail of slowly receding flesh protrusions leaves no uncertainty as to a brood gibberling's infested state.

Combat:  In combat, brood gibberlings deliver a vicious bite that stands a 50% chance of injecting a gibberslug into the fresh wound.  Failing direct injection, a brood gibberling can, once every 4 rounds, spit a burrowing gibberslug at a melee target (treat range as a dagger) in addition to any normal action and before the resolution of normal actions.  When gibberslugs are seen, they resemble bloated leeches, the pulsing pink color of newborn hairless mice, complete with a nasty maw ideal for penetrating skin or soft tissue.

A successful attack (bite or spit) indicates that victims who fail a save vs. death are unable to brush away or shake off the gibberslug before it easily penetrates skin or hide.  Flame applied to the gibberslug's point of entry within one round automatically kills the slug (and the victim takes 1d4 points of damage). Ingestion of a specialized mushrom called darkscape (which grows only in regions twisted by the influence of an extra-dimensional region known as the Far Realm) immediately kills a burrowing gibberslug.

Infected victims suffer 1d4 damage each round as the slug bores its way through the soft tissues toward the brain, its ultimate goal.  The slug reaches gray matter in 1d6+5 combat rounds, at which time it melds itself to the victim's brain stem.  The victim immediately drops into a deep sleep from which none can awaken him, as nightmares of ghoulish intensity begin to ravage his mind; at this point, the victim is unrecoverable by any means save a wish.  The nightmares are a side effect of the gestating slug, which quickly digests the host's brain, then body, from within.

When the process is complete (in 1d20+4 hours), a fully grown gibberling emerges from the husk of skin left behind by the victim.  The newborn gibberling possesses no memory of its former life (but does slightly resemble the victim).  It immediately rushes to attack the nearest living creature not of its own kind, or fless to seek its own kind if exposed to bright light.

Habitat/Society:  The origins of the brood gibberlings lie in a realm that some believe to be beyond planar cosmology as it is currently understood.  Only thorugh incautious exploration of magical gates have these creatures arrived from the other side; however, most of those transplanted here can survive only so long as they remain close to an area under the influence of their home Realm.  Their gibbering progeny, however, seem to have no such restrictions, and bedevil civilization far and wide.

Within the secluded burrows where brood gibberlings live, ragged husks like discarded about the floor, the remnants of gibberling birthing.  A brood gibberling can mentally control any gibberlings which it has personally created, giving rise to various clans of gibberlings, each controlled by one brood gibberling.  Clans sometimes cooperate and sometimes war, depending upon the whims of their progenitors.  Brood gibberlings often seek to "convert" gibberlings of other clans to its own.

Ecology:  Brood gibberlings are tied to the miles-wide field of corruption that accompanies and surrounds gates keyed to the Far Realm, and cannotlive for long beyond its influence.  What form a brood gibberling takes in its home realm is difficult to say.  It is probable that form does not bear much in common with their physiology as described hear.

Originally appeared in Gates of Firestorm Peak (1999) and later in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four (1998).


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

Monstrous Humanoid (Extraplanar)?

Gibberlings are monstrous humanoids in the Players Guide To Faerûn Monster Update.


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2008)

I'd agree with that type.  These actually make me want to use gibberlings for a low-level adventure; I've been sick of those guys since they seem awfully annoying in Baldur's Gate. 

Looking through the stats, I guess Int 12, Con 12.  If we do Str+1/2 for the bite, that would be Str 16-17, as well.  It looks like we should adapt the gibberling's gibber ability, since these have it in the SA line (if not in the main text).  Cha should be ok for that, I guess, maybe 14-15?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

That all sounds good.

Here's the gibber ability:

Gibber (Ex): Gibberlings' continual insane muttering and shrieking can unnerve creatures with fewer than 2 HD, requiring them to make a Will save (DC 10) or be shaken. Creatures with 2 or more HD do not have to make a Will save, but all Concentration checks by creatures who can hear gibberlings within 200 feet suffer a -2 penalty. Note that in most circumstances, gibberlings' gibbering prevents them from achieving surprise.

Should we increase te max HD affected, say to 4?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2008)

4HD max sounds about right.  Still need Dex and Wis; want to go with 10 or use whatever standard gibberlings have?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

Gibberlings have Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 5, Wis 7, Cha 2.

Let's go with Dex 10, Wis 12, since the brood has higher Int and could just as easily have higher Wis.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2008)

Next up I guess are the gibberslugs.  Do we want to make the bites deliver them automatically or only 50% of the time?  Maybe just say that the ranged attack or direct injection by bite can occur every 1d4 rounds as part of the attack action.  Would that simplify it a little?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

Honestly, I think the 50% chance on every attack is simpler.    

Maybe just allow a save on every attack, and successes mean no gibberslugs enter?

Added to Homebrews.

Note that they are size M (3' tall).   We need to either shrink them to Small  or increase their height.  I'd rather go with the former.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2008)

I get the feeling that these are physically supposed to be sort of like regular gibberlings, which are Small.  So let's make them Small.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

Updated to Small size.

It,s time to look for creatures with similar gibberslug-style abilities for inspiration...

burrowing progeny 

Implant (Ex): A red slaad that hits with a claw attack can inject an egg pellet into the opponent's body. The affected creature must succeed on a DC 16 Fortitude save to avoid implantation. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Often the slaad implants an unconscious or otherwise helpless creature (which gets no saving throw). The egg gestates for one week before hatching into a blue slaad that eats its way out, killing the host. Twenty-four hours before the egg fully matures, the victim falls extremely ill (-10 to all ability scores, to a minimum of 1). A remove disease spell rids a victim of the pellet, as does a DC 25 Heal check. If the check fails, the healer can try again, but each attempt (successful or not) deals 1d4 points of damage to the patient.

If the host is an arcane spellcaster, the egg pellet instead hatches into a green slaad.


I know I've seen other creatures recently with similar abilities.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2008)

How's this?

Gibberslug (Ex):  On a successful bite attack, a brood gibberling may attempt to insert a gibberslug into the victim.  The victim must succeed on a DC X Reflex(?) save.  If the save fails, each round thereafter the target takes 1d4 points of damage as the slug bores its way toward the brain. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

A gibberslug will reach a creature's brain in 1d6+5 rounds, at which point the host automatically falls into a coma, subject to alien nightmares which ravage its mind.  After 1d20+4 hours, the gibberslug completely digests the hosts brain and body from within, and a fully grown gibberling emerges from the husk.  Although the gibberling slightly resembles the victim, it retains no memory of its former life and immediately attacks any non-gibberlings it finds.

In the round following entry, fire can be applied to the gibberslug's point of entry to kill the gibberslug, but this also deals 1d4 points of fire damage to the host.  Before it reaches the brain, a gibberslug can be destroyed with a remove disease, heal, or similar effect, or by ingesting a special form of mushroom called Darkscape that grows in regions tainted by the Far Realm.  Once the gibberslug has reached the brain, no form of ressurection will work on the body, although a wish or a miracle spell can restore the victim to life and its original form, destroying the gibberslug. 

Spit Gibberslug (Ex):  Once ever 1d4 rounds, a brood gibberling can spit a gibberslug at a target.  This requires a ranged attack and has a range increment of 10 feet.  On a successful hit, the victim must make a saving throw as normal for the gibberslug ability (see above).


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

I like this.  Do we want to put in the 50% chance of gibberslugging on a bite attack or just give the save?  I do think the initial save should be a Ref save, but I could see an argument for a Fort save at some point when the slug is in the body, especially if we don't go with the 50% chance.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

I think the 50% chance just unnecessarily complicates the matter.   Good point about the Fort save.  How's this?

Gibberslug (Ex): On a successful bite attack, a brood gibberling may attempt to insert a gibberslug into the victim. The victim must succeed on a DC X Reflex save. Success indicates that the gibberslug falls off the victim and quickly perishes.  If the save fails, the slug enters the wound.  Each round thereafter the target takes 1d4 points of damage as the slug bores its way toward the brain (Fort DC X halves the damage). The save DC is Constitution-based. 

A gibberslug will reach a creature's brain in 1d6+5 rounds, at which point the host automatically falls into a coma, subject to alien nightmares which ravage its mind. After 1d20+4 hours, the gibberslug completely digests the hosts brain and body from within, and a fully grown gibberling emerges from the husk. Although the gibberling slightly resembles the victim, it retains no memory of its former life and immediately attacks any non-gibberlings it finds.

In the round following entry, fire can be applied to the gibberslug's point of entry to kill the gibberslug, but this also deals 1d4 points of fire damage to the host. Before it reaches the brain, a gibberslug can be destroyed with a remove disease, heal, or similar effect, or by ingesting a special form of mushroom called Darkscape that grows in regions tainted by the Far Realm. Once the gibberslug has reached the brain, no form of ressurection will work on the body, although a wish or a miracle spell can restore the victim to life and its original form, destroying the gibberslug. 

Spit Gibberslug (Ex): Once ever 1d4 rounds, a brood gibberling can spit a gibberslug at a target. This requires a ranged attack and has a range increment of 10 feet. On a successful hit, the victim must make a saving throw as normal for the gibberslug ability (see above).


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Hmm, I actually meant a fort save to kill the gibberslug, but I think this is ok.

Feats: Maybe Iron Will and Ability Focus (gibber)?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

> A brood gibberling can mentally control any gibberlings which it has personally created, giving rise to various clans of gibberlings, each controlled by one brood gibberling. Clans sometimes cooperate and sometimes war, depending upon the whims of their progenitors. Brood gibberlings often seek to "convert" gibberlings of other clans to its own.




Gibberling Command (Su):  A brood gibberling can communicate telepathically with any gibberling it has created within (1 mile?).  Gibberlings created by the brood gibberling will follow its mental commands to the best of their ability.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Looks good, but should we put in something about "converting" other gibberlings?  Maybe add something like: "A gibberslug that attacks a gibberling merely converts it to the control of a new brood gibberling."

No treasure?

Skills: Listen, Spot, Tumble or Climb? at 7 ranks each?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Hmmm...I get the impression that gibberslugs only work on humanoids (need to add that to ability, eh?) not already gibberlings.  Maybe just use Bluff or Intimidate to convert others?

Its treasure was "nil (E)".

Treasure type E in 2e was:
1,000-6,000 copper (5%)
1,000-10,000 silver (25%)
1,000-4,000 gold (25%)
300-1,800 platinum or electrum (25%)
1-12 gems (15%)
1-6 art objects (10%)
Magic Items:  Any 3 + 1 scroll (25%)

I'll take those skills and pilfer a few points for Intimidate and Knowledge (the planes).


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Sounds good.  What does nil (E) mean?  Type E treasure in its lair or something?  So either None or say Standard in its lair?  The changes to the skills are good.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Yep, in lair.

Organization: Solitary, x (1-4), or clan (1 brood gibberling plus x gibberlings)
[Gibberlings are Solitary, horde (20-100), or wave (101-500)]

CR 3?

A brood gibberling is about 3 feet tall and weighs x pounds. (None listed for gibberlings)

Brood gibberlings speak x. (None listed for gibberlings)


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

What about 
Organization: Solitary, slug (1-4), or clan (1 brood gibberling plus 20-100 gibberlings)?

CR3 is ok, and maybe halfling weight 30-35 lb?  As for language, I would say that brood gibberlings speak no recognizable language.


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2008)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2008)

I'd say so.  These would be great for a low-level adventure in a Far Realms aberrant type campaign.


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2008)

And with that, this 1,000+ post thread will be closed, and another shall rise from its ashes.


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2008)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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