# Gestalt 13th Level "Terror and Blasphemy"



## Creamsteak (Feb 29, 2004)

This game will run through the module "Terror and Blasphemy" that was created by a bunch of us EN Worlders. After the module, there is no guarantee that the game will continue. We will act as a set of playtesters of both the Gestalt rules presented in Undearthed Arcanna, and the adventure itself. Obviously I have to ask that you not be a contributor to "Terror and Blasphemy," and that you avoid reading it until after the adventure is completed. If you contributed to CD-2 or plan to contribute to CD-3, that is fine. However, CD-1 "Terror and Blasphemy" is off limits to the players for obvious reasons.

Characters will be created using Point Buy 32, the Core Rules, Complete Warrior, the Minis Handbook, Book of Exalted Deeds, Draconomicon, and the Gestalt variant presented in Unearthed Arcanna. Characters begin play at 13th level. All that will be needed by a player is a DMG and PHB.

As Gestalt is an OGL concept, I present it to you:

*Gestalt Characters*
In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each. The process is similar to multiclassing, except that characters gain the full benefits of each class at each level. If the two classes have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all apsects that don't overlap.

The gestalt character variant is particularly effective if you have three or fewer players in your D&D group, or if your players enjoy multiclassing and want characters with truly prodigious powers. This variant works only if every PC in the campaign uses it, and it results in complicated characters who may overwhelm newer D&D players with an abundance of options.

*Building a Gestalt Character*
Top make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two standard D&D classes. (You can also choose any of the variant classes in this book, though youcan't combine two versions of the same class.) Build your character according to the followign guidelines.
*Hit Dice:* Choose the larger Hit Die. A monk/sorcerer would use d8 as her Hit Die and have 8 hit points (plus Constitution modifier) at 1st level, for example.
*Base Attack Bonus:* Choose the better progression from the two classes.
*Base Saving Throw Bonuses:* For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2--taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.
*Class Skills:* Take the number of skill points gained per level from whichever class grants more skill points, and consider any skill on either class list as a class skill for the gestalt character. For example, a gestalt barbarian/bard would gain skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and have four times thsi amoutn at 1st level), and can purchase skills from both the barbariand and bard lists as class skills.
*Class Features:* A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class-and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid's prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gaisn a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate fo the faster class.
Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day seperately.
A gestalt character can't combine two prestige-classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations--such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-- should be prohibited if you're using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what's already a high-powered variant. Because it's possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the DM is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it's available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 29, 2004)

This looks like it could be fun.  I'd like to try a barbarian/bard, both because the skald is a fun archetype, and to see whether it breaks the system or not (it is, after all, a playtest).

Rough draft:

Aemon al'Relan, human Bbn/Brd 13

Str 21   [6 points, 3 level raises, +4 Girdle]
Dex 18  [6 points, +4 Gloves]  
Con 18  [6 points, +4 Amulet]
Int 14   [6 points]
Wis 10  [2 points]
Cha 16  [6 points, +2 Cloak]

Hit Dice: 13d12+52 (142)
BAB= +13
Fort +12 (base +8, Con +4)
R +12 (base +8, Dex +4)
W +8 (base +8)

AC: 25 (+10 armor, +1 deflection, +4 Dex)  touch 15, flatfooted 21
Attacks: +20/+15/+10 melee, 2d4+7 15-20/x2 falchion
+18/+13/+8, 1d8+5 20/x3, longbow

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, Arcane Strike

Skills:
Climb +21 [16 ranks, +5 Str]
Concentration +20 [16 ranks, +4 Con]
Hide +19 [16 ranks, +4 Dex, -1 armor]
Listen +16 [16 ranks]
Move Silently +19 [16 ranks, +4 Dex, -1 armor]
Perform (sing) +19 [16 ranks, +3 Cha]
Spellcraft +18 [16 ranks, +2 Int]
Tumble +19 [16 ranks, +4 Dex, -1 armor]
Use Magic Device +19 [16 ranks, +3 Cha]

Class abilities: DR 3/-, Greater Rage 4/day, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +4, Fast Movement, Bardic Knowledge (+15), Bardic Music (_inspire courage, countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, suggestion, inspire greatness, song of freedom)_ 

Spells: 3/4/4/4/2  Save DC 13+ spell level
0th: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Resistance
1st: Charm Person, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, Hideous Laughter 
2nd: Blur, Mirror Image, Shatter, Silence
3rd: Dispel Magic, Haste, Major Image, See Invisibility
4th: Cure Critical Wounds, Greater Invisibility, Hold Monster, Shout

EQ: Cloak of Charisma +2, Girdle of Giant Strength +4, Amulet of Health +4, Gloves of Dexterity +4, Ring of Sustenance, Ring of Protection +1, +5 Mithral Breastplate, +2 Keen Falchion, +1 Mighty [+4] composite longbow, 40 cold iron arrows, 40 alchemical silver arrows, 3 wands of Cure Light Wounds, wand of True Strike, 115 gold.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 29, 2004)

funny I was just talking to PA about this the other day... 

To quote a famous man, "If its not broke your not trying."

I'm uncertain what I will play maybe a fighter/rogue.


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## Hammerhead (Feb 29, 2004)

Sounds really cool! I'd love to play, particularily a Rogue/Cleric!


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## Kalanyr (Feb 29, 2004)

If there's a slot left I'm in. Fighter/Wizard.


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## Dalamar (Feb 29, 2004)

I think I'll take a go at a hexblade/sorcerer, just to see how that turns out. Can I use the UA variant of changing my sorcerer familiar for an animal companion while keeping my hexblade familiar?


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## Serpenteye (Feb 29, 2004)

Hello Creamsteak, my old advesary , what's up?

I've never played a gestalt game before, it looks promising. I'm considering a Sorcerer/Paladin... Is the Paladin's ability to cast spells without penalty in armour a class-feature that would apply to the sorcerer's arcane spellcasting? Is the sorcerer's lack of alignment restrictions and ethos a feature that would apply to the paladin half of the character, without penalties?

--
edit: 3 posts in 1 minute, all with a similar idea. Great minds think alike, huh?


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## DM_Matt (Feb 29, 2004)

Me too!  Gotta find a char though...


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## Creamsteak (Feb 29, 2004)

That was fast. 7 Players. I'll take one more player and run the adventure twice over. That will give me twice as much knowledge, while still keeping the average 4 person group.

So, you guys can figure out how to divide yourselves into two seperate parties of 4, and we will wait for one more person.

And as another general statement, you won't be allowed to view another group's thread just so we don't have any accidental spoilers. Both adventures will start on the same day.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 29, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Hello Creamsteak, my old advesary , what's up?
> 
> I've never played a gestalt game before, it looks promising. I'm considering a Sorcerer/Paladin... Is the Paladin's ability to cast spells without penalty in armour a class-feature that would apply to the sorcerer's arcane spellcasting? Is




No it won't...  That's the difference between divine and arcane spells.  It's labeled arcane spell failure not just spell failure.

Creamsteak, I suggest breaking the rogues up so theirs one a group.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 29, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> I think I'll take a go at a hexblade/sorcerer, just to see how that turns out. Can I use the UA variant of changing my sorcerer familiar for an animal companion while keeping my hexblade familiar?




Erm... sorcerer familiar for animal companion? What page is it on?



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Hello Creamsteak, my old advesary , what's up?
> 
> I've never played a gestalt game before, it looks promising. I'm considering a Sorcerer/Paladin... Is the Paladin's ability to cast spells without penalty in armour a class-feature that would apply to the sorcerer's arcane spellcasting? Is the sorcerer's lack of alignment restrictions and ethos a feature that would apply to the paladin half of the character, without penalties?
> 
> ...




The Paladin casts spells as divine, but a Sorcerer casts spells arcanely. So the Paladin's ability is completely seperate, and you would suffer arcane spell failure for the sorcerer. However, there is at least two classes in Complete Warrior that would help by reducing Arcane Spell Failure. The sorcerer's alignment lacking a restriction does not affect the Paladin's alignment restriction and code. Any Paladin would retain a code and must still be lawful good.


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## Dalamar (Feb 29, 2004)

The change from familiar to animal companion is on page 58 (the very last thing, continues to page 59).


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 29, 2004)

If we're splitting into groups of four, I might suggest using those players who have played together in the past as one group; Dalamar, Brother Shatterstone, Serpenteye, and myself.


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## Serpenteye (Feb 29, 2004)

What range of alignments do we have to choose from? (all players in general, not specifically paladins)


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## Creamsteak (Feb 29, 2004)

Dalamar, I'll allow the animal companion/familiar switch I guess.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> What range of alignments do we have to choose from? (all players in general, not specifically paladins)




Whatever you like. The adventure doesn't care. However, if we have really opposite alignments (paladin vs. blackguard) scenerios, we'll simplify things and slide them into seperate groups.


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## Uriel (Feb 29, 2004)

Me, Me!!


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## Creamsteak (Feb 29, 2004)

Hey Uriel, look under your name real quick. Did you notice that yet?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 29, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Hey Uriel, look under your name real quick. Did you notice that yet?



speaking of which...  Look under yours. 

What's UMC?  

We have always call it MU back home (KCMO) or if you’re going national Mizzu but I've never seen it listed as UMC.


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## Uriel (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm either going to recreate the character that made me love Gnomes way back in 1st Ed*:Gnome Fighter or Ranger /Wizard combo.


or a Fighter/Rogue-Master Thrower.


(when I played a Gnome on a dare, since they supossedly sucked, having -1 Comliness as their only stat mod and all...Showed those guys!)

, are we allowed to take Prestige Classes? The gnome Giant Killer was pretty much what he was anyways...


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## Uriel (Feb 29, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Hey Uriel, look under your name real quick. Did you notice that yet?




Er...Gosh, just when I was about to step down, too...

Maybe you meant the Yahoo Messenger Icon.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 29, 2004)

I went over why I hate my college at Nutkinland a while back. I don't like "MU," but University of Missouri-Columbia I'm alright with. Perhaps I should remove the Columbia at the end. Interesting to know your from the same "area" (200 mile difference) as me. I'm more from St. Louis area, but I'm not FROM St. Louis.

Prestige classes are fine by me. Just meet the requisites and move into it. You cannot take a prestige class before your 5th full level is finished, however. I'm ruling that instead of going through and editing the prestige class requirements. So you can have as many as 8 levels with a PrC.

Nah, I was referring to the name. If you really want to go back to "Registered User" just inform me. And if your going to step down, your welcome to. You've been a big hand in the whole project, whether we really get it up to speed or if it folds in on us we'll know soon enough.


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## Kalanyr (Feb 29, 2004)

Hmm, so so far it looks like groups are:

Group 1
Dalamar (Hexblade/Sorceror), Brother Shatterstone (Fighter/Rogue), Serpenteye (Paladin/Sorcerer), and Paxus (Barbarian/Bard)  .

Group 2
Kalanyr (Fighter/Wizard) , Uriel (Fighter/Wizard), DM Matt (?) and Hammerhead (Rogue/Cleric)

(Looks okay to me though if DM Matt makes a Cleric/Something might want to swap him with Paxus or Shatterstone so that Group 1 has a full blown healer.)


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 29, 2004)

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Hmm, so so far it looks like groups are:
> 
> Group 1
> Dalamar (Hexblade/Sorceror), Brother Shatterstone (Fighter/Rogue), Serpenteye (Paladin/Sorcerer), and Paxus (Barbarian/Bard)  .
> ...




Between Serpenteye's laying on of hands, and my wand usage, we should be alright.


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## Uriel (Feb 29, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Nah, I was referring to the name. If you really want to go back to "Registered User" just inform me. And if your going to step down, your welcome to. You've been a big hand in the whole project, whether we really get it up to speed or if it folds in on us we'll know soon enough.





Psst:I was joking...




Thanks for the name change (puts on 'airs'...), sitting a little taller, rolling his dice a little more, shall we say _refined_.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 29, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Between Serpenteye's laying on of hands, and my wand usage, we should be alright.



Indeed we should be.   Except for my characters' habit of rolling bad...  Oh no! I have no divine grace to save me!


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## Uriel (Feb 29, 2004)

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Hmm, so so far it looks like groups are:
> 
> Group 2
> Kalanyr (Fighter/Wizard) , Uriel (Fighter/Wizard), DM Matt (?) and Hammerhead (Rogue/Cleric)





If Kalanyr is a F/W, then I'll go the Fighter/Rogue cum Master Thrower route.


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## Kalanyr (Feb 29, 2004)

I've decided on the following, haven't worked out my feat selection yet.

I think I'll do the following.
Barbarian 5/Wizard 5
Barbarian 1/Dragonslayer 1
Champion of Gwynharwyf 7/Wizard 7

Just a question if I take VoP can I retain my spellbook as long as I scribe no spells except those that come from levelling up ? (Just want to make sure the concept is viable).


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 1, 2004)

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> I've decided on the following, haven't worked out my feat selection yet.
> 
> I think I'll do the following.
> Barbarian 5/Wizard 5
> ...




You did note that the Champion of Gwyharwyf's ability to cast while raging only applies to Champion spells?


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## Creamsteak (Mar 1, 2004)

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Just a question if I take VoP can I retain my spellbook as long as I scribe no spells except those that come from levelling up ? (Just want to make sure the concept is viable).




Huh... semi-difficult sounding question. You don't mind if I throw it over to the rules lawyers for a little while first, do you?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 1, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Huh... semi-difficult sounding question. You don't mind if I throw it over to the rules lawyers for a little while first, do you?



It does specifically allow for non-costly material components to be owned; it seems that a spellbook would similarly be permitted.  Alternately, you can have him write the spells in a different fashion, such as tattoos.


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## DM_Matt (Mar 1, 2004)

I plan on being a mostly non-caster...some sort of multi-fighter.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 1, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> It does specifically allow for non-costly material components to be owned; it seems that a spellbook would similarly be permitted.  Alternately, you can have him write the spells in a different fashion, such as tattoos.



 I agree, but I just want to get some confirmation down on the subject. And I will expect anyone playing with exalted feats to play their character in a completely exalted fashion. Vow of Poverty is more than just giving up material wealth, it's giving up material wealth as a part of your belief in the highest of good ideals.


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## Kalanyr (Mar 1, 2004)

Sure throw it to the rules lawyers. I have an alternative concept involving Fighter/Spellsword if the VoP thing is a no go.

Yes I'm fully aware the Gwynharwyf, Rage Casting applies only to that list.


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## Hammerhead (Mar 1, 2004)

Go Missouri! Go St. Louis! (From St. Louis, going to school in Minnesota) I'll make my character by tomorrow.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 1, 2004)

I applied to Uni-Minneapolis. I didn't get enough aid to even remotely afford to go there though.

Edit: 5k post.


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## Kalanyr (Mar 1, 2004)

What do we do for HD after first level max? half ? roll ?


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## Creamsteak (Mar 1, 2004)

Ah, forgot about that.

Max first hit dice, halfs from then on. 2.5 on 4s, 3.5 on 6s, 4.5s on 8s, 5.5s on 10s, 6.5s on 12s.

Starting gold for PCs of 13th level. No single item can be worth more than half your wealth.


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## Kalanyr (Mar 1, 2004)

Avand Thelsi
Human [Wizard/Barbarian] 6/[Wizard/Champion of Gwynharwyf] 7
Medium Humanoid (Human)
HD: 13d12 (91)  + 26 (117 hp)
Init: +1
Speed: 40 ft
AC: 22 (+1 Dex, +8 Exalted, +2 Deflection,+1 Natural) Touch: 13 Flatfooted: 22 Flatfooted Touch: 12 Brilliant Energy: 22 
BAB/Grapple: +13/+15 
Attack:  Melee: +15 Touch: +15 Ranged Touch: +14  
Attacks: +17 Quarterstaff: 1d6+5  
Full Attack: +17/+12/+7 (Quarterstaff 1d6+5)
SA: Smite Evil (+2/+7) 2/day, Fearsome Fury, Greater Rage 4/day, Exalted Strike +2 (Magic,Good)
SQ: Detect Evil,  Divine Grace , Fuirous Casting, DR 3/- , DR5/Magic, Immune to Charm And Compulsion, Fast Movement, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +2, Energy Resistance 5 (All), Endure Elements, Greater Sustenance (No need to eat,drink or breathe), Mindshielding
Stats: Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 14 Cha 14
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Skills: 
Concentration: 16 + 2 (Con) = +18
Decipher Script: 16 +5 (Int) = +21: 
Intimidate: 16 + 2 (Cha) +2 (Circumstance) = +20
Knowledge (Arcana): 16 + 5 (Int) = +21
Knowledge (Nature): 16  + 5 (Int) +2 (Synergy) = +23
Knowledge (The Planes): 1 + 5 (Int) = +6
Listen: 16 + 2 (Wis) = +18
Spellcraft: 16 + 5 (Int) + 2 (Skill Focus) +2 (Synergy) = +25
Survival: 16 + 2 (Wis) = +18 (+20 Aboveground Natural Environments)
Swim: 16 + 2 (Str) = +18
Feats:
Level 1- Sacred Vow
Level 1- Human: Vow Of Poverty
Level 1 - Exalted:  Nymph's Kiss
Level 1- Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
Level 2 - Exalted: Knight of Stars
Level 3-  Righteous Wrath (DC 18)
Level 4 - Exalted:  Nimbus of Light
Level 5 - Wizard 5:  Empower Spell
Level 6-  Spell Focus (Evocation)
Level 6 - Exalted:  Stigmata  
Level 8 - Exalted:  Exalted Smite
Level 9 -  Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Level 10 - Exalted:  Gift of Grace
Level 10 - Wizard 10: Purify Spell
Level 12 - Exalted:  Gift of Faith 
Level 12 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
Saves: Fort: +17 (+2 Con, +2 Res +11 Base +2 Grace)  Ref: +9 (+1 Dex,+2 Res, +4 Base +2 Grace) Will: +15  (+2 Will, +2 Res, +9 Base +2 Grace) (Fort +18 Ref +10 Will +16 vs Spells and Spell-like Abilities) (Will + 19 vs Fear/Despair and similar mind-affecting effects)

Original Stats: Str 14 (6) Dex 12 (4) Con 14 (6) Int 15 (8) Wis 12 (4) Cha 12 (4)
+1 Stat at Level 4 Int
+1 Stat at Level 8 Wis
+1 Stat at Level 12 Wis
Enhancement (+4 Intelligence, +2 Charisma)

Spells Per Day

Wizard (DC 15 + Spell Level, DC 16 + Spell Level if Abjuration or Evocation,  DC 17  + Spell Level if Good, DC 18 + Spell Level if Good Evocation or Abjuration. )
0 - 4| 1 - 4 +2 | 2 - 4 + 1 | 3 - 4+1 | 4 - 4+1 | 5 - 3+1 | 6-  2 | 7 - 1 |
1st - Alarm, Shield , Magic Missile , Enlarge Person, Shocking Grasp*, Protection from Law* 
2nd- Knock,Darkvision, Detects Thoughts, See Invisibility, Purified Shocking Grasp*+
3rd- Empowered Magic Missile, Fireball*, Magic Weapon,Greater, Haste, Fly
4th- Greater Invisibility, Fire Shield*, Dimensional Anchor, Wall of Fire*, Purified Fireball*+
5th-  Touch of Adamantine, Arc of Lightning, Fireburst Greater*,Break Enchantment
6th-  Greater Dispel Magic, Heroism, Greater
7th- Prismatic Spray*
*Evocation or Abjuration
+Good

Champion of Gwynharwyf ( DC 12 + Spell Level, DC 13 + Spell Level if Abjuration or Evocation, DC 15 + Spell Level if Good, DC 16 + Spell Level if Good Abjuration or Evocation. ) (Can Cast While Raging)
1 - 2+1 | 2 - 1+1 | 3 - 1 | 4 - 0
1- Protection From Evil+*, Bless  Weapon, Lesser Restoration
2- Shield Other, Bull's Strength 
3- Remove Curse

Wizard
Spells Known 
0th  - All 
1st (7) -    Alarm, Protection From Law, Shield , Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon
2nd (4)-  Knock,Darkvision, Detects Thoughts, See Invisibility
3rd (4) -  Fireball, Magic Weapon,Greater, Haste, Fly
4th (4) -   Greater Invisibility, Fire Shield, Dimensional Anchor, Wall of Fire
5th (4) - Touch of Adamantine, Arc of Lightning, Fireburst Greater*, Break Enchantment
6th (4) - Heroism, Greater, Dispel Magic, Greater, Chain Lightning, Globe of Invulnerability
7th (2) -   Limited Wish , Prismatic Spray

Possessions:
Spellbook
Quarterstaff


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## Serpenteye (Mar 1, 2004)

I think I may go with a Ghost Rogue/Sorcerer instead. It's a bit weak, but will hopefully be a more interesting character to play. 
Does Ecl count against one of the classes in a gestalt character, or against both of them?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 1, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I think I may go with a Ghost Rogue/Sorcerer instead. It's a bit weak, but will hopefully be a more interesting character to play.
> Does Ecl count against one of the classes in a gestalt character, or against both of them?



Ghostwalk has a PC friendly version of a ghost...  it would be interesting as a gestalt character as you would never lose your "ghostness" by having more ghost levels than regular class levels...

Anyhow I got my other projects done yesterday, for the most part, so I'll worked on my fighter rouge tonight.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 1, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I think I may go with a Ghost Rogue/Sorcerer instead. It's a bit weak, but will hopefully be a more interesting character to play.
> Does Ecl count against one of the classes in a gestalt character, or against both of them?



You mean does the level adjustment allow you to take another classes benefits with it? I'd say no. Monsters might gain levels as Gestalt classes, but they still are just monsters at base. In other words, a troll is still a troll, not a troll/fighter for this particular dungeon.

It is a weird question to ask though...


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## Kalanyr (Mar 1, 2004)

I think Serpenteye wants to play a Ghost, so he wants to know if he can use the LA levels from ghost as gestalt levels eg Ghost/Fighter.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 1, 2004)

Right, and I answered the question (albeit awkwardly).

I don't think you can be a ghost/fighter, ghost/sorcerer, or any such benefit at a given level. That would mean that I'd have to Marilith/Fighter every creature in the dungeon too, and I don't think that's right.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 1, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Right, and I answered the question (albeit awkwardly).



What about the ghost class from ghostwalk?


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## Creamsteak (Mar 2, 2004)

I don't have ghostwalk, nor am I really a fan of it...

Edit: But if you'll provide the info I'll probably be OK with it.


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## Hammerhead (Mar 2, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Right, and I answered the question (albeit awkwardly).
> 
> I don't think you can be a ghost/fighter, ghost/sorcerer, or any such benefit at a given level. That would mean that I'd have to Marilith/Fighter every creature in the dungeon too, and I don't think that's right.




Uh, I don't think that's right either.  I heard that CD1 was difficult enough as it is, and we certainly don't need gestalt Marilith dervishes running around to complete the slaughter.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> I don't have ghostwalk, nor am I really a fan of it...
> 
> Edit: But if you'll provide the info I'll probably be OK with it.



I can do that if serpenteye wants to be a ghost but to be honest the information is not well organized and would be a potential nightmare for a DM without said book.


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## Keia (Mar 2, 2004)

Officially applying as an alternate, if needed or wanted.

Keia


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Note done but I figured I should show what I have now...  SKills and papper work is all that is really left. 

*Character Name : *
*Character Race : * 
*Character Class(es) :* Fighter 12/ Rogue 13/ Exotic Weapons Master 1
*Alignment :* 

*Gender :* Male
*Age :* 
*Height :* 
*Weight :* 
*Eyes :* 
*Hair :* 

*Character Level :* 13th level Gestalt
*Known Languages :* 

-------------------------------------------------------

*Strength :* 16 (8 points, 8th level ability)
*Dexterity :* 16 (8 points, 12th level ability)
*Constitution :* 14 (6 points, 4th level ability)
*Intelligence :* 14 (6 points)
*Wisdom :* 13 (4 points)
*Charisma :* 8 (0 points)


-------------------------------------------------------

*Armor Class :* XX [ BASE (10) + ARMOR (5) + SHIELD(0) + DEX (x)]

*Flatfooted Armor Class :* xx
*AC Penalty: * -1
*Maximum DEX bonus: * + 5
*Armor Type & Weight: * Medium 
.+1 Breastplate [30 lbs] (1350 GP) [+6 Total Armor Bonus] 
.+1 Ring of Protection (2000 GP) [+1 Reflection Bonus]

*Armor weight : * lbs.
*Hit Points :* 

-------------------------------------------------------

*Save vs. Fortitude :* x [BASE(x) + CON MOD (x)]
*Save vs. Reflex :* x [BASE(x) + DEX MOD (x)]
*Save vs. Will :* x [BASE(x) + WIS MOD (x)]

*Special Save Notes :* 

-------------------------------------------------------

*Initiative Modifier :* +x 
*Base Attack Bonus :* +13/+8/+3

*Melee Attack Bonus :* +x/+x
*Ranged Attack Bonus :* +x/+x

-------------------------------------------------------

*Weapons : *

*Lightblade, Elven */ 1d8 damage (Bonus) / x2 (15-20) / damage type / x lbs. (cost)

*.weapon */ 1dx damage (Bonus) / X critical (20) / damage type / x lbs. (cost)

*Weapon weight : * x lbs.
-------------------------------------------------------

*Skills : *

Name/Total Mod (Ability) ** # Ranks taken

* Armor Check Penalty Applies
[CC] Cross Class Skill
-------------------------------------------------------

*Feats: *
Exotic Weapon Feat: Lightblade, Elven (1st Level)
Combat Expertise  (Human)
Two Weapon Fighting (Fighter 1)
Weapon Focus: Lightblade, Elven (Fighter 2)
Sense Weakness (3rd Level)
Weapon Specialization: Lightblade, Elven (Fighter 4)
Improved Bucker Defense (Fighter 6)
Greater Weapon Focus: Lightblade, Elven (Fighter  8)
Improved Critical: Lightblade, Elven (9th Level)
Improved Combat Expert (Fighter 10)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Lightblade, Elven (12th Level)
Deft Strike (Fighter 12) 

*Special Abilities: *
Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting (Exotic Weapon Master 1st level)
Sneak Attack +7d6 (Rogue)
Trap Sense +3 (Rogue)
Evasion (Rogue)
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Rogue)
Crippling Strike (Rogue)
Opportunist (Rogue)

-------------------------------------------------------

*Equipment & Gear:* 
Lightblade, Elven +4
Lightblade, Elven +4
Buckler +5 (16,165)
Mithral Breastplate +5 (29,000)

64,100


*EQUIPMENT WEIGHT: *34.5 lbs.
*ARMOR WEIGHT: *30 lbs.
*WEAPON WEIGHT: *10 lbs.
*TOTAL WEIGHT: *74.5 lbs.

*Carrying Capacity* 16 STR *Light: *up to 76 lb. *Medium: *77-153 lb. *Heavy: *154-230 lb.


-------------------------------------------------------

*Money:* 
PP: 
GP: 735
SP: 
CP: 
-------------------------------------------------------

*Base Speed:* 30 feet

*Background:*


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Small edit: I found two feats I still hadn't swapped.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 2, 2004)

Elf, Ghost, Gestalt Rogue/Sorcerer 10. (ecl 13)

Str: 2 / -4 (8 -6(venerable age))
Dex: 18/+4 (17 +2(elf)+5(item) -6(venerable age))
Con: --/-- (8 -2(elf) -6(venerable age))
Int: 14/+2 (11 +3(venerable age))
Wis: 14/+2 (11 +3(venerable age))
Cha: 32/+11 (17 +3(venerable age) +4(ghost) +2(level) +6(item)

Init: +4
Speed: 30 ft (perfect flight, incorporeal)
Age: 780 years
Height: 6'1"
Weight: ----

HP: 66 (12 + 12*0,5*9)
AC: 31 (10 +4(dex) +11(cha) +6(bracers) (50% miss chance for attacks from corporeal sources)
Bab: 7
Attack: +12, Touch attack
Full Attack: +10/+10/+5/+5 (two weapon fighting) Touch attack
Damage: 1d6+1 +1d4 ability damage +5d6 Sneak attack
Fort: +3 (+3+0)
Refl: +11 (+7+4) (50% miss chance for spells from corporeal sources)
Will: +9 (+7+2)
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse (touch attack), Eschew Materials, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

Skillpoints: 130:.....total (ranks+abilities+elf+ghost+synergies)
Bluff (Cha):..............24 (13+11)
Diplomacy (Cha):......28 (13+11+0+0+2+2)
Disguise (Cha):.........23 (10+11+0+0+2)
Hide (Dex):..............25 (13+4+0+8)
Intimidate (Cha):......26 (13+11+0+0+2)
Listen (Wis):............22 (10+2+2+8)
Move Silently (Dex):..A manifested ghost always moves silently.
Search (Int):...........19 ( 7+2+2+8)
Sense Motive (Wis):..13 (12+1)
Spot (Wis):..............25 (13+2+2+8)
Concentration:.........13 (13+0+0+0)
Spellcraft (Int):........15 (13+2+0+0)
Speak language: Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, Dwarven, Giant: 10 sp.

Languages: Common, Elven, Draconic, Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, Dwarven, Giant. 

Spells by level:
0:6.....Arcane Mark, Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic.
1:9.... Charm Person, Chill Touch, Magic Missile, Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement.
2:9.... Command Undead, Glitterdust, Web, Pyrotechnics.
3:9.... Slow, Haste, Major Image.
4:7.... Dimension Door, Enervation.
5:5.... Wall of Force.

DC: +11

Rogue Features:
Trapfinding, Evasion, Uncanny dodge, Trap sense +3, Sneak attack +5d6, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Improved Evasion.

Elf Features:
* +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution.
* Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
* Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
* Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
* +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
* Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.

Ghost Special Qualities:
* Undead type.
* Ghosts have a fly speed of 30 feet, with perfect maneuverability. 
* Turn Resistance +4 (Ex)
* Abilities: No Constitution score, and its Charisma score increases by +4. 
* Skills: Ghosts have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
* Armor Class: When the ghost manifests, its natural armor bonus is +0, but it gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier or +1, whichever is higher.
* Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it's difficult to destroy a ghost through simple combat: The "destroyed" spirit will often restore itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. A ghost that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + ghost's HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ghost for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.

* Manifestation (Su): A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane.
A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon.
A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost's incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.
A ghost has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.

Ghost Special Attacks:
* Corrupting Touch (Su): A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack deals 1d6 points of damage. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only.
* Draining Touch (Su): A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack drains 1d4 points from any one ability score it selects. On each such successful attack, the ghost heals 5 points of damage to itself. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack rolls only. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only.
* Malevolence (Su): Once per round, an ethereal ghost can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the ghost's Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the ghost must be manifested and it must try move into the target's space; moving into the target's space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15 + ghost's Cha modifier). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same ghost's malevolence for 24 hours, and the ghost cannot enter the target's space. If the save fails, the ghost vanishes into the target's body.


Ghostly equipment: 
Gloves of Dex +5, 25000 gp
Cloak of Cha +6, 36000 gp
Bracers of armor +6, 36,000 gp
Noble's Outfit, 100 gp
Hand of the Mage, 900 gp
Handy Haversack, 2000 gp
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, 6,000 gp


Grave:
A coffin of lead hidden 15 feet beneath the floor of a sub-basement beneath a ruined shrine of a dead deity in an ancient monster-infested elven city. (value 4,000 gp)


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## Hammerhead (Mar 2, 2004)

*Tammarian the Silver*
*Chaotic Neutral Human Cleric/Rogue 13 of Ollidamra*
*Hit Dice:* 13d8+13 (75 hp)
*Initiative:* +9 (Dex, Improved Initiative)
*Speed:* 30 ft. (*Light Load:* 22 lb./33 lb.)
*AC:* 24 (+5 dex, +6 armor, +2 shield, +1 natural)
*Full Attacks:* +1 small shocking shortswords  +13/+13/+8/+8 (1d6+1+1d6), or +1 small composite shortbow +15/+10 (1d6+1) 
*Attacks:* +1 small shocking shortsword +15 (1d6+1+1d6), or +1 small composite shortbow +15 (1d6+1) 
*Racial Traits:* Extra skills, bonus feat
*Class Features:* Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +4, Sneak Attack +7d6, Crippling Strike, Turn Undead 3/day, Spontaneous Healing
*Saves:* Fort +11, Ref +15, Will +16
*Abilities:* Str 10, Dex 16 (20), Con 12, Int 14, Wis 18 (22), Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11 [4 ranks], Bluff +16 [16 ranks], Concentration +17 [16 ranks], Disguise +24 [12 ranks], Disable Device +20 [16 ranks], Gather Information +8 [8 ranks], Listen +14 [8 ranks], Hide +18 [8 ranks], Knowledge: Religion +10 [8 ranks], Move Silently +18 [8 ranks], Open Lock +15 [8 ranks], Search +18 [16 ranks], Sense Motive +16 [8 ranks], Sleight of Hand +19 [12 ranks], Spot +14 [8 ranks], Spellcraft +18 [16 ranks], Tumble +13 [8 ranks]
*Feats:*Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Defense, Quick Draw 
*Languages:* Auran, Common, Terran

* Spells* 
*1st (7+d) DC 17* - _
*Equipment* (108,560/110,000 gp)

Mithral Chain Shirt +2  (5,250 gp) [12 lb.]
Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16,000 gp)   
Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16,000 gp)   
Belt of Hardening +1 (4,000 gp)
Vest of Resistance +2    (4,000 gp)   [1 lb.]
Strand of Prayer Beads: Healing, Karma (9,000 gp)
Hat of Disguise (1,800 gp)
Shocking Short Sword +1 (8,310 gp)   [2 lb.]  
Shocking Short Sword +1 (8,310 gp)   [2 lb.]
Boots of the Silent Spider (9,800 gp)   [1 lb.]
Composite Shortbow +1 (2,375 gp)  [2 lb.]
Cloak of Elvenkind (2,500 gp)  [1 lb.]
Bracers of Speed (12,000 gp) [1 lb.]
Pearl of Power II (4,000 gp)
Wand of Cure Light Wounds, 1st  (750 gp)
Potion of Fly, 5th (750 gp)
Scroll of Dimensional Anchor, 7th (700 gp)
Scroll of Summon Monster VII, 13th (2,275 gp)
Scroll of Divine Power, 7th (700 gp)_


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Serpenteye, interesting character...   I'm curious to see how it will play though I'm slightly confused at how you will use all of your equipment.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, interesting character...   I'm curious to see how it will play though I'm slightly confused at how you will use all of your equipment.






			
				SRD 3 said:
			
		

> Ghostly Equipment
> When a ghost forms, all its equipment and carried items usually become ethereal along with it. In addition, the ghost retains 2d4 items that it particularly valued in life (provided they are not in another creature’s possession). The equipment works normally on the Ethereal Plane but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures when the ghost manifests, but any such attack has a 50% chance to fail unless the weapon is a ghost touch weapon (just as magic weapons can fail to harm the ghost).
> The original material items remain behind, just as the ghost’s physical remains do. If another creature seizes the original, the ethereal copy fades away. This loss invariably angers the ghost, who stops at nothing to return the item to its original resting place.





He can clearly use the items he weilded in life, in particular those he died with. With a little generous interpretation one could also assume that all items that he is buried with become usable to him in his undead state. It seems reasonable that he would be able to use any item that is placed with him in his tomb even if it is done at a later time, though that would obviously be a DM call. He would still be a relatively weak character, in the current company. The Ecl hurts more for a gestalt character.

--

Btw, Brother, Do you know of any nice spells that would suit the flavour of the character as well as give it a bit more power and survivability?


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## Dalamar (Mar 2, 2004)

Okies, here's my char for the nuts and bolts. Now if I could only come up with a name and brief history, along with how he looks, everything would be good.

Male human Gestalt Hexblade/Sorcerer 13th
Chaotic Neutral

*Str* 18(+4) *Dex* 10(+-) *Con* 16(+3) *Int* 12(+1) *Wis* 10(+-) *Cha* 25(+7)
Level raises in Str, and x2 Cha

*HP* 138
*Armor Class* 18 (+4 Armor, +2 Deflection), _Flat-footed_ 16, _Touch_ 12
*Saves F/R/W:* +11/+7/+11 (+7 to saves against spells and spell-like abilities)

*Skills (ranks):* 64 skill points, Listen and Spot include Alertness bonus from familiar being within arm's reach
Bluff +15(8), Concentration +13(10), Diplomacy +14(5), Jump +11(5), Listen +5(0), Spellcraft +11(10), Spot +6(4), Tumble +8(6), Use Magic Device +10(3)
*Feats:* 5 regular, 1 human bonus, 2 hexblade bonus
Arcane Strike, Cleave, Combat Casting, Enlarge Spell, Improved Toughness, Power Attack, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
*Class features:*
Animal Companion, Arcane Resistance, Aura of Unluck 1/day, Familiar, Greater Hexblade's curse (DC 23) 4/day, Mettle

*Single Attack:*
Greatsword +19 melee (2d6+7, 19-20/x2)
Melee touch +17 melee (by spell)
Ranged touch +13 ranged (by spell)
*Full attack:*
Greatsword +19/+14/+9 melee (2d6+7, 19-20/x2)

*Hexblade spells* 3/3/3 per day, DC 17+level
Spells known:
_1st (4):_ Entropic Shield, Phantom Threat, Protection from Evil, Undetectable Alignment
_2nd (4):_ Invisibility, False Life, Mirror Image, Summon Swarm
_3rd (3):_ Hound of Doom, Poison, Protection from Energy

*Sorcerer spells* 6/8/8/8/7/7/5 per day, DC 17+level
Spells known:
_Cantrips (9):_ Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Light, Prestidigitation, Touch of Fatigue
_1st (5):_ Enlarge Person, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Truestrike
_2nd (5):_ Augment Familiar, Blindness/Deafness, Cat's Grace, See Invisibility, Spider Climb
_3rd (4):_ Dispel Magic, Fly, Haste, Hold Person
_4th (4):_ Bestow Curse, Dimension Door, Fireshield, Stoneskin
_5th (3):_ Break Enchantment, Telekinesis, Waves of Fatigue
_6th (2):_ Disintegrate, Greater Heroism

*EQUIPMENT*
Amulet of Health +4
Belt of Natural Armor +2 (Different body slot)
Bracers of Armor +4
Cloak of Charisma +6
_Costly spell components:_ 6x diamond dust for Stoneskin, 
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
10 Potions of Cure Light Wounds
4 Potions of Cure Moderate Wounds
4 potions of Lesser Restoration
Ring of Counterspells (Disintegration stored)
Ring of Protection +2
2 Silversheens
+1 Spellstoring Greatsword (Hold Person stored)
Vest of Resistance +3 (different body slot)
_Leftover cash:_ 1000gp

*Familiar and Animal Companion*
*Tron the Bat*: CR--; Diminutive Magical Beast; HD 13dS; HP 69; Init +2; Spd 5ft, Fly 40ft(perfect); AC 21, Touch 16, Flat-footed 19; Base Atk +13; Grp -4; Atk +15 melee touch (spell); Full Atk --; Space/Reach 1ft/0ft; SA Deliver Touch Spells; SQ Alertness, Blindsense 20ft, Empathic Link, Improved Evasion, Low-light Vision, Share Spells, Speak with Bats, Speak with Master; AL N; SV Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +10; Str 1, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 4
_Skills and Feats:_ Bluff +5, Concentration +10, Diplomacy +2, Hide +14, Jump +2, Listen +8, Move Silently +6, Spellcraft +10, Spot +10, Tumble +10; Alertness

*Smoke the Wolf*: CR--; Medium Magical Beast; HD 6d8; HP 42; Init +3; Spd 50ft; AC AC 19, Touch 13, Flat-footed 16; Base Atk +4; Grapple +6; Atk Bite +7 melee (d6+2); Full Atk --; Space/Reach 5ft/5ft; SA Trip; SQ Devotion, Evasion, Link, Low-light Vision, Scent, Share Spells; AL N; SV Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3; Str 15, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
_Skills and Feats:_ Hide +3, Listen +3, Move Silently +4, Spot +3, Survival +5(+9 when tracking by scent)


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

SE, Hey, that works for me just make sure not to show my character where your grave is. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> The Ecl hurts more for a gestalt character.[/qoute]
> 
> Indeed, it really does one would have to consider the ECL reduction rules that are also in the book.
> 
> ...


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 2, 2004)

The ring of protection doesn't stack with ghost deflection bonuses, if I recall correctly, but I doubt it'll be too much of a problem.  Between your AC of 33, the fifty percent miss chance, and your ability to de-manifest, nothing that can't reach the Ethereal is going to threaten you, except for a cleric, and even then, a command or destroy result is unlikely.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 2, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The ring of protection doesn't stack with ghost deflection bonuses, if I recall correctly, but I doubt it'll be too much of a problem.  Between your AC of 33, the fifty percent miss chance, and your ability to de-manifest, nothing that can't reach the Ethereal is going to threaten you, except for a cleric, and even then, a command or destroy result is unlikely.




Ah, I thought that it would stack since it came from different sources, the way it works with natural armour and an amulet of natural armour. One source is innate, the other from an item... But you're probably right. Thanks for pointing it out. 

--

Dalamar, you might need some transportation spells. Teleport, or something similar.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Ah, I thought that it would stack since it came from different sources, the way it works with natural armour and an amulet of natural armour. One source is innate, the other from an item... But you're probably right. Thanks for pointing it out.




Ah, they played with the terminology to make that work.  An amulet of natural armor doesn't provide a natural armor bonus, any more than the +1 of a suit of armor is an armor bonus.  The amulet provides an enhancement bonus to your natural armor bonus, which for most humanoids is +0 (not the same as having no natural armor).


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

What's up with all the rogues?   almost half the characters done so far have rogue levels.


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## Victim (Mar 3, 2004)

Hammerhead has wanted to play a cleric/rogue for a long time, but has been unable to come up with a build that doesn't completely suck.  Hence, he leaped at the chance for a gestalt game so his cleric rogue guy can work.

Also, mechanically, using a rogue class in a gestalt character isn't a bad idea.  Tons of skill points, evasion, sneak attack, and more.  The low HP and Bab mean nothing for most fighter types under the gestalt set up.  And a caster type gains evasion, some moderate combat ability, and a much nicer skill set.  If you can't think of a good secondary class, rogue isn't a bad choice.

Odd idea about a gestalt character: take a spellcasting class and something else.  Later, take a spellcasting class and your favorite PrC that gives +1 caster level.  It seems like you'd end up with a caster level higher than character level.  Of course, the character will probably suffer on Bab, HP, and saves, since spellcaster PrCs usually aren't much better than the base class.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 3, 2004)

Victim said:
			
		

> Odd idea about a gestalt character: take a spellcasting class and something else.  Later, take a spellcasting class and your favorite PrC that gives +1 caster level.  It seems like you'd end up with a caster level higher than character level.  Of course, the character will probably suffer on Bab, HP, and saves, since spellcaster PrCs usually aren't much better than the base class.



Well if you took a spellcasting class and a PrC that granted a +1 to the caster level you would only gain one of the two...  As you take the best but if there is a tie you only take one. 

Example: a Fighter's and a paladin’s hit points.

As for all the rogue's yeah I think it’s a great class I've never ran a pure one but a few class levels are invaluable.  I'm just shocked we haven't seen a fighter/paladin or a Barbarian/Fighter.  To be honest taking a fighter as a class isn't a bad pick either.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 3, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well if you took a spellcasting class and a PrC that granted a +1 to the caster level you would only gain one of the two...  As you take the best but if there is a tie you only take one.
> 
> Example: a Fighter's and a paladin’s hit points.
> 
> As for all the rogue's yeah I think it’s a great class I've never ran a pure one but a few class levels are invaluable.  I'm just shocked we haven't seen a fighter/paladin or a Barbarian/Fighter.  To be honest taking a fighter as a class isn't a bad pick either.




There are two things to look for in a gestalt:  Covering the other class's weaknesses, and reinforcing the other class's strengths.  Rogue is great for covering weakness, with skill points and damage-avoidance abilities.  Likewise, the barbarian's full BAB and d12 hit die compensate for melee weaknesses.  I went for the barbarian/bard because it seemed to offer the best of both worlds; all strong saves, d12 hit die, full BAB, and six skill points per level is only matched by dragons, and the rage and song abilities are the best instant buffs in the game.


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## Hammerhead (Mar 3, 2004)

Serpenteye, you could try getting the really powerful Ray of Enfeeblement as one of your 1st level spells. No save, and it does 1d6+5 points of enhancement penalty to Str. My character would collapse under the weight of his armor if hit by that one.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 3, 2004)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, you could try getting the really powerful Ray of Enfeeblement as one of your 1st level spells. No save, and it does 1d6+5 points of enhancement penalty to Str. My character would collapse under the weight of his armor if hit by that one.



Indeed a good spell and it would compliment my rogue's STR damage he does on his sneak attacks.

Hey Hammerhead, How did you end up with all the feats?  (I imagine you took feats instead of rogue special abilities (10th and 13th.) but I still don't see how you ended up with improved two-weapon fighting as your sheet only says 16 Dex.   Did you forget add an ability bonus to your sheet maybe?


----------



## Hammerhead (Mar 3, 2004)

I only took a bonus feat for one of my rogue abilities. With the other one I got Crippling Strike.

I use Gloves of Dexterity to increase my Dex score so I can qualify for those feats.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 3, 2004)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> II use Gloves of Dexterity to increase my Dex score so I can qualify for those feats.



Hmmm I've never heard of that before...  Seems rather risky but if your without your gloves your probably in so much trouble it matters not.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Mar 3, 2004)

Hmm.  Purely as an exercise in blind hope (since I doubt anyone's going to let the chance to play in this game slip by!), I'd like to jump in as an alternate.  And lament the fact that OA isn't 3.5 (Shaman/Monk/Blade singer... mmm).

Out of curosity, how the devil does one calculate CR's with gestalt characters?


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## Creamsteak (Mar 3, 2004)

I'll allow Keia and Thomas Hobbes as 5ths for each group...

But that's absolutely it.

Also, I want everyone to put their characters in monster manual stat-block form. It's my favorite form, and probably among the fastest to just read.

it looks like this:

*Zasorthane, exiled of house Izridas Zigân*
*Lawful Evil Drow Hexblade 4*
*Hit Dice:* 4d10+4 (37 hp)
*Initiative:* +3 (Dex)
*Speed:* 30 ft. (*Light Load:* 48.5 lb./58.0 lb.)
*AC:* 18 (+3 dex, +5 armor)
*Full Attacks:* +1 large adamantine greatsword +6 melee (3d6+4/19-20x2 slashing), masterwork alchemically silvered shortsword  +7 melee (1d6+1/19-20x2 piercing)
*Attacks:* +1 large adamantine greatsword +6 melee (3d6+3/19-20x2 slashing), masterwork alchemically silvered shortsword +7 melee (1d6+1/18-20x2 piercing)
*Racial Traits (ECL +2):* Darkvision (120 ft.), drow racial traits, drow weapon proficiencies, elf sense, favored class (wizard), immunity to magic sleep effects, light blindness, spell-like abilities, spell resistance 15
*Class Features:* Arcane resistance, hexblade's curse 1/day, hexblade spells, light armor proficiency, martial weapon proficiency (all), mettle, simple weapon proficiency (all), summon familiar
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +4; +2 bonus vs. enchantment spells or effects, +7 bonus vs. all Spells and spell-like effects
*Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 19 (21)
*Skills:* Bluff +12 [7 ranks], Concentration +5 [4 ranks], Diplomacy +7 [2 ranks], Intimidate +7 [2 ranks], Knowledge (arcana) +4 [3 ranks], Spellcraft +4 [3 ranks]; +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, +2  Alertness bonus to Listen and Spot when familiar is within arms reach, +3 familiar bonus to Bluff when familiar is within 1 mile, +4 Combat Casting bonus to concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability while on the defensive or while grappling or pinned
*Feats:* [Combat Casting], Monkey Grip, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
*Languages:* Common, Draconic, Elven, Underdark

*Spell-like abilities:* Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: _dancing lights_ (DC 15), _darkness_ (DC 17), _faerie fire_ (DC 16). Caster level equals the drow’s class levels.

*Familiar* 
*Tiny Viper* - *HD:* 1d8 (hp 14); *Initiative:* +3; *Speed:* 15 ft., climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.; *AC:* 18 (+2 size, +3 dex, +3 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-11; *Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1 plus poison); *Full Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1 plus poison); *Space/Reach:* 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Poison; *Special Qualities:* Alertness, empathic link, improved evasion, scent, share spells; *Saves:* Fort +2, Reflex +5, Will +5; *Abilities:* Str 4, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 2;*Skills:* Balance +11, Bluff +3, Climb +11, Diplomacy -2, Intimidate -2, Hide +15, Listen +6, Spellcraft +4, Spot +6, Swim +5; *Feats:* Weapon finesse

*Hexblade Spells* (Caster Level 2)
*1st (2/day) DC 16* - _Expeditious Retreat_, _Undetectable Alignment_

*Equipment* (12,837/13,000 gp)
+1 Chain shirt (1,250 gp) [25 lb.]
+1 Large adamantine greatsword (5,400 gp) [16 lb.]
Masterwork cold iron shortsword (320 gp) [2 lb.]
Masterwork hand Crossbow (250 gp) [2 lb.]
Alchemically silvered bolts x20 (42 gp) [2 lb.]
Flask of cure light wounds, 8 doses) (400 gp) [0.8 lb.]
Bull’s strength potion x2 (600 gp) [0.2 lb.]
Barkskin +2 potion (300 gp) [0.1 lb.]
Shield of faith +2 potion x3 (150 gp) [0.2 lb.]
Scroll of identify (125 gp) [0.1 lb.]
Cloak of charisma +2 (4,000 gp)
Snake familiar (100 gp)


----------



## Creamsteak (Mar 3, 2004)

Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Out of curosity, how the devil does one calculate CR's with gestalt characters?




They give you about a page worth of description. The just of it is that CRs are reduced by 1 or 2. Encounters need to be engineered to be made more challenging, which I think this dungeon does pretty well to begin with. With the -now- 5 characters, I worry a bit that I might skew the dungeon... but I don't mind.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 3, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Also, I want everyone to put their characters in monster manual stat-block form. It's my favorite form, and probably among the fastest to just read.



Ahh I prefer my method much better and I really have issues trying to read that yet alone get it into that format...  Are you sure on this ruling?

BTW: You have some non-OGL content in that post. (Hexblade abilities)


----------



## Keia (Mar 3, 2004)

Thanks for the invite!!  I'm thinking of a fighter 6/sorceror 13/Arcane Archer 7, though if anyone has any others ideas, I'm willing to listen.  Also, depending on the group I'm with - I'll try and cover any weaknesses we may have in the group.

Keia


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Mar 3, 2004)

Wow.  Thanks lots, Creamsteak.

As might be expected, I've got lots of ideas, but I think I'll wait and see, like Keia, what gaps need filling in my party....

Edit: What I'll play if I get the chance is some (un)Holy union of Paladin, Ranger, Kensai and Knight of the Chalice.  Since I could have up to a +8 weapon (or +7 if the XP expenditure comes to that) but 13th (or 12th) level....  +4 holy evil outsider bane sounds good.  Plus favored enemy.  Plus Fiendslaying.

Jeez.  Gestalt characters are sick, sick sick.  I'm going to enjoy this.


----------



## Uriel (Mar 3, 2004)

Question about Favored Class...

One, are we adhering closely to Favored Classes, and...


Two, does each progression have a seperate favored class 'choice' (for Human, for example.

If each half of the class progression is considered seperately, then I'm fine (as a human or a half elf).

1   Fighter/Rogue
2   Swashbuckler/Rogue
3   Fighter/Rogue
4   Swashbuckler/Rogue
5   Fighter/Rogue
6   Swashbuckler/Master of Throws
7   Fighter/Skullclan Hunter
8   Master of Throws/Rogue
9   Skullclan Hunter/Rogue
10 Master of Throws/Rogue 
11 Fighter/Skullclan Hunter
12 Fighter/Master of Throws
13 Master of Throws/Rogue

Edit:Figuring out the Saves (and/or the best way to advance, should it matter for them) is giving me a headache.

I think that it is Fighter+Swashbuckler -or- Rogue Saves + Best of Prestige bonuses? Or...(See, my headache is back...).


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## Uriel (Mar 3, 2004)

MMM...

Palm Strike+Rapid Shot+Improved 2 Weapon Fighting+Greater Two-Weapon Fighting+Weak Strike+ Base of +13/8/3 means 14 possible daggers per round. Combined with Sneaks...

That's  672 HP damage if I roll max on all sneaks, and crits (sneaks not multiplied). Without magic bonuses.
D4+2specialization X2crit=12+36 +sneak=48X12 hits. And they are touch attacks...

That requires being able to go first, or invisible etc...and it works on Undead. Ahh....Divine Strike.


----------



## Creamsteak (Mar 4, 2004)

BS, your stat block is just too spread out for me. If you can crunch it down some, that would be much appreciated.


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## Dalamar (Mar 4, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Dalamar, you might need some transportation spells. Teleport, or something similar.



Missed this earlier.

Why do you think so? Not that I have anything against picking up Teleport or maybe Dimension Door, but curious as to the reason.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 4, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Missed this earlier.
> 
> Why do you think so? Not that I have anything against picking up Teleport or maybe Dimension Door, but curious as to the reason.




I've never seen a Sorcerer above level 10 who didn't have either Teleport or Dimension Door, or something like that. Those spells can save you (us) weeks of walking around in the wilderness, they will place the world wide open at your feet. And they are really useful if you ever need to escape a superior enemy... There's really no reason not to take one of those spells.


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## Dalamar (Mar 4, 2004)

I just noticed that I hadn't spent my human skill points (and I had forgotten to pay for some skills as cross class) or human bonus feat. So now I have 3 ranks in UMD for a total bonus of +10, and the Enlarge Spell feat, which coupled with the now acquired DDoor makes my total travel distance by spells to 28,520ft per day.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> BS, your stat block is just too spread out for me. If you can crunch it down some, that would be much appreciated.



No need, I'll finish up on mine tonight, and then start to convert it to yours.


----------



## Creamsteak (Mar 5, 2004)

Rogues Gallery is up.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak- What's the word on whether the 1000 xp I expend via Kensai to improve my weapon costs me my 13th level or not?


----------



## Creamsteak (Mar 5, 2004)

Hrm... roll d% and multiply the percentage by the amount of experience you need to level up. You currently need 13,000 xp. This will apply to everyone.

100% = 000% so that nobody can "quite" level up.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Mar 5, 2004)

OK.  Good way to handle it, incidentally.


----------



## Creamsteak (Mar 5, 2004)

Serpenteeyes, it looks like you have aging benefits, but not aging penalties acrued...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Serpenteeyes, it looks like you have aging benefits, but not aging penalties acrued...



I honestly would be shocked if a ghost did take a negative for aging.


----------



## Creamsteak (Mar 5, 2004)

They also don't gain a benefit though. So he either gained the aging benefits before becoming a ghost (along with the penalties), or he became a ghost first and maintained his stats.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> They also don't gain a benefit though. So he either gained the aging benefits before becoming a ghost (along with the penalties), or he became a ghost first and maintained his stats.



You know now that I opened my mouth I can even find a reference in the MM 3.5 that says they don’t age.  Undead speaks nothing of immunity but I think it’s pretty much implied. 

I can find a few things that do gain the bonus and none of the negatives from it.  (Then again they usually still have a normal lifespan.)  Anyhow it doesn’t really matter. 

Anyhow I’m curious how does one handle the Saving Throws?  Is it by level or is it simply the best one overall?

An example would be a 3rd level fighter/wizard.  What would be its Will Save?


----------



## Creamsteak (Mar 5, 2004)

Well, a 3rd level fighter/wizard is +3/+0/+3.

The problem isn't with those though, it's with the (Barbarian/Bard 3)/(Rogue/Cleric 3)

That's where the stats get weird, because technically it would be +6 to all saves, I think.

Basically, you get the full benefit of being a Barbarian/Bard (Good Saves in all 3), and a Rogue/Cleric (Good saves in all 3).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> The problem isn't with those though, it's with the (Barbarian/Bard 3)/(Rogue/Cleric 3)




Indeed.   



			
				Creamsteak said:
			
		

> That's where the stats get weird, because technically it would be +6 to all saves, I think.



A line by line of transfer would be a +4 as you only take the best at each level and when I mean the best I mean the best *gain*.

Level One
Fort: 2 (Cleric)
Ref: 2 (Rogue)
Will: 2 (Cleric)

Level 2, the cleric gains a +1 in Fort and Will while the rogue gets a +1 in Ref.
Fort: 3 (Cleric)
Ref: 3 (Rogue)
Will: 3 (Cleric)

Level 3, there roles reverse the cleric gets a +1 Ref while the rogue gets a +1 will and +1 fort.
Fort: 4 (Rogue)
Ref: 4 (Cleric)
Will: 4 (Rogue)

Level 4, the cleric gains a +1 in Fort and Will while the rogue gets a +1 in Ref.
Fort: 5 (Cleric)
Ref: 5 (Rogue)
Will: 5 (Cleric)

Level 5, no gain!
Fort: 5 (None)
Ref: 5 (None)
Will: 5 (None)

Level 6, Both classes have all their saves up one.  No stacking.
Fort: 6 (Either)
Ref: 6 (Either)
Will: 6 (Either)

Level 7, No gain!
Fort: 6 (None)
Ref: 6 (None)
Will: 6 (None)


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## Creamsteak (Mar 5, 2004)

You don't make a comparison at each level, just for each admixture. You don't look at level 4, for instance, and gain a +1 bonus to saves from having a bad saving throw in a particular spot. To give some sense to this, look at a monk. Good saves to all, but if you followed your pattern, they would gain more from having a second class that gave a bad bonus to all saves (commoner).

Edit: But your above point is a pretty interesting comparison...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> You don't make a comparison at each level, just for each admixture.




Are you sure, you do the same for BAB, and Skills.  Also if you don't do the above how do you handle PrCs?  Or do you just not gain saving throws for PrC and you simply take which ever is better at your highest level based upon your two starting classes?

Like my character would have:
Fort: +8
Ref: +8
Wil +4


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## Creamsteak (Mar 5, 2004)

Hrm... it's really weird looking now. What about when you partial class multiple times? 

Monk/Fighter +2 all
Monk/Wizard +1 fort/+2 ref and will
Monk/Fighter +1 fort
Monk/Ranger +1 fort/+2 ref and will
Monk/Rogue +2 ref

... This is seriously making me consider the partial save progressions...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Hrm... it's really weird looking now. What about when you partial class multiple times?




It gets ugly I imagine... And I'm with you we need to do partial saves as I don't think a Wizard/Fighter should have a higher will save then a straight wizard or a wizard/sorcerer.


----------



## Creamsteak (Mar 5, 2004)

Alright, I hate to do this really really late in the character creation process (I appologise), but I'd like to convert saving throws and BAB to the partial form. Here's the breakdown without the half page description UA gives us:

Each level in a class grants you these benefits based on their save/attack progression:

Good Saves +1/2
Poor Saves +1/3

Good Attack +1
Mid Attack +3/4
Poor Attack +1/2

At 1st level a good save (such as all of the monks) grants a flat +2 to saves. This only is accrued at 1st level. Thereafter, the character does not gain that flat +2 bonus from multiclassing of any kind. You simply gain the "best" save bonus from either of the classes that are part of your Gestalt.

Make sense?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> ... This is seriously making me consider the partial save progressions...




It going to make peoples head hurt but the cleric/rogue is easy.

Cleric/Rogue
level 13
Fort:8 1/2
Ref: 8 1/2
Will: 8 1/2

Fighter/Rogue
Fort: 8 1/2
Ref: 8 1/2
Will: 4 1/3


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Make sense?




Does to me:

Fighter 12/ Exotic Weapon Master 1/ Rogue 13

Fort: 8 1/2
Ref: 8 1/2
Will: 4 1/3

right?


----------



## nameless (Mar 5, 2004)

I skimmed over the thread and wasn't clear on if you had an eighth player for the game. If you don't, I'd love to be it. My first idea is a Lycanthrope (Were-Dire Bat) Rogue/Fighter.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 5, 2004)

We've already got 10 players. And I'd rather lose people than take more on at this point.

Also, please list your classes as thier progression. Not Fighterx/roguex/monkx. Fighter/Monk and Rogue/Monk and Prestige/Monk. I just want to know that info.


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## Uriel (Mar 5, 2004)

OK, the saves are giving me a headache...I figured them out, as per the Gestalt description, which _does_ say to do it level by level, and mine ended up as +13F/+16R/+9Will

I'll give CS's version a go tomorrow, I guess, unless someone wants to have a look and say 'It's X,X and X, Uriel...

Here are my Classes as I had them developed.

Fighter 6
Rogue 9
Swashbuckler 3
*********************
Master Thrower 5
Skullclan Hunter 3
                                                        F/R/W   Skills
1 Fighter/Rogue                                2/2/0    Rogue 44
2 Swashbuckler/Rogue                     2/1/0    Rogue 11
3 Fighter/Rogue                                1/3/1    Rogue 11
4 Swashbuckler/Rogue                     1/1/0    Rogue 11   
5 Fighter/Rogue                                0/1/1    Rogue 11
6 Swashbuckler/Master Thrower      1/2/0    Swash   7
7 Fighter/Skullclan Hunter                1/2/2    SKH     9  
8 Master Thrower/Rogue                 1/1/1     Rogue 11     
9 Skullclan Hunter/Rogue                 0/1/1     Rogue 11  
10 Master Thrower/Rogue              1/1/1       Rogue 11              
11 Fighter/Skullclan Hunter              1/0/0      SKH     9
12 Fighter/Master Thrower              1/1/1       MT      7    
13 Master Thrower/Rogue               1/0/1       Rogue 11
Totals:                                        +13/+16/+9      164

Oh, by the way, I mentioned a total damage of 700-something HPs with max crits,sneaks etc...

It's actually 960HP...and they are _Touch_ attacks. SWEET!!!!!!!

16 Daggers at 24HP+36Sneak=60X16 daggers


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## Creamsteak (Mar 5, 2004)

> Base Saving Throw Bonuses: For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2--taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.




That's all it says one the subject. Is there another example in the rest of the text?


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> They also don't gain a benefit though. So he either gained the aging benefits before becoming a ghost (along with the penalties), or he became a ghost first and maintained his stats.




Really? I thought they continued to mature and learn even after they bacame undead. That is what the increase in the mental ability scores represents. Their bodies are immune to the ravages of time, but their minds are not affected. If anything their mental stats should increase more because they do not suffer from the senility so common in venerable mortals...



			
				SRD 3 said:
			
		

> Undead Type:
> .....
> —Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.




This seems to support my interpretation. Undead are immune to damage to their physical ability scores, and thus do not weaken as they age. Their is nothing in the entry about their mental abilities, so I assume that they advance at the same rate as their original race.


----------



## Hammerhead (Mar 5, 2004)

But aren't Ghosts unable to move on from this world? That might suggest they don't accrue aging benefits. Also, Ghosts don't really have age categories, and aging decreases to ability scores aren't "ability damage." You cannot restore them via magic, for example.

And I think you'll find far more sane mortals, despite their age, than sane ghosts.


----------



## Dalamar (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> That's all it says one the subject. Is there another example in the rest of the text?



 Boy, am I glad that both of my classes have the same save progression. Not having to worry about stuff like this. 

Of course, my saves aren't really that great except against spells and spell-like abilities.

Also, I'll convert my char to you format, CS, not just yet. I was almost done with that, but my baby sister hit the Reset button on my comp


----------



## Uriel (Mar 5, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> That's all it says one the subject. Is there another example in the rest of the text?




"A Gestalt character follows a similar procedure when you attain second and subsequent levels.Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics.A few caveats apply,however.

Blah Blah Class abilities...

Blah Blah spell casting abilities...

Blah Blah Prestige Classes... "

_Take the best aspects of each..._that would seem to imply that you did get the bonuses when they occurred from differing classes.

Here's what I did:

Started with F/R etc...once I got Swashbuckler, I continued as above,checking each class, F/R/S, to make sure that I only added a save bonus when that class would have got one in the area.In other words, only when a _new_ bonus applied in the class/es.
Prestige Classes (since they do directly add on), were a bit different, but followed a similar formula within themselves as far as tiering bonuses.

I ended up with +13/+16/+9 and I think that I did it the right way.
CS, have a look (headache for you!!!) and see if you disagree.

BTW, did I mention the 960 HP of damage? 
I would _so_ never allow this guy in my game ( wondering if I would want to run a Gestalt Campaign at all, after looking at them now...)


----------



## Hammerhead (Mar 5, 2004)

Are you sure it's the Gestalt campaign that's the problem, or the broken combination of feats/prestige classes that I've never even heard of that lets you do that amount of damage.

How the heck DID you make a character capable of doing 960 points?


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Mar 5, 2004)

To be fair, 960 points is with all maximum damage with all weapons hitting: the best- case scenario.  The actual average is half that multiplied by some messy equation involving each attack's to-hit.  It's vulnerable to DR, requires lots of weapons of returning or recovering lots of weapons....

I wondered what would happen if you combined two classes that gave sneak attack.  Now we know.   This ought to be interesting.


----------



## Uriel (Mar 5, 2004)

Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> To be fair, 960 points is with all maximum damage with all weapons hitting: the best- case scenario.  The actual average is half that multiplied by some messy equation involving each attack's to-hit.  It's vulnerable to DR, requires lots of weapons of returning or recovering lots of weapons....
> 
> I wondered what would happen if you combined two classes that gave sneak attack.  Now we know.   This ought to be interesting.




Firstly, It is as follows, for hammerhead;

Thrown Dagger is 1D4+5 Int bonus for Insightful Strike (Swashbuckler)+1 for being a +1 dagger,+2 for Specialization (within 30'). 1D4+8, critted=24 +6D6 Sneak (36)= 60 HP max damage per dagger.

Next, I have 2 weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting and rapid shot and Haste. That's 8 attacks a round. 
Next, Palm Throw allows each attacks to be 2 daggers (each with the chance of critting and getting the sneak damage. Unlike Manyshot, nothing in any text precludes this).

60 damage X16 daggers =960 points of possible damage.

Yes, it is vulnerable to DR, or someone who can negate my 9th level Sneak ability (high level barbarian etc...),Fortification armor,etc... but they are Ranged Touch attacks.
Unlike a magic bow, which gives all of it's bonus to it's arows, no matter how many it fires, I have to buy a *%^#load of daggers.

Currently (not finalized), I have 16 +1 daggers (36,832 of my 110,000GP), as well as a bunch of normal ones, iron,silver etc...in a Haversack/bag of holiding.

I only gained 1D6 of Sneak from the Skullclan Hunter, and that wasn't my intention(I could have gone assassin or something and done even more damage).
You see, the Skullclan hunter allows my Sneaks to be used against Undead...

The Classes are all Core, or from the Complete Warrior/Miniatures HB, within the realm of CS's book selection.

The class is hardly broken, since I will never, under any circumstances, actually do that much damage (mathmeticians,please feel free to get to work on probabilities of 32D4 and 96D6 rolling max...,after hitting 16 times and critting 16 times, that is.). I have vulnerabilities in the lack of a huge huge bonus weapon (I'm sure you melee types will hav a staggering amount of damage/special things as well).Protection against missiles would hurt my effectieness (although I'm still attacking 7 times a round in melee at that point).
I did a Quick non-Gestalt version, and he still could do around 396 HP of damage in a round at max...

Ah, the knife-thrower has arrived.

PS:My attack line looks like this:
+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10/+10...
1D4+8 Crit 17-20/X2 Ranged touch attacks.


----------



## Kalanyr (Mar 6, 2004)

The key thing in support of undead not gaining ability increases from ageging is if you look at any of the official NPCs like Szass Tam in the FRCS, if you assume he does have ageing bonuses he was really stupid as a young wizard. (Int 17 assuming he put absolutely none of his level up bonuses in Int, which seems unlikely. More probably Int 12. With all ability increases in Int. Most of the other immortal formerly human NPCs likewise get fairly abysmal base scores assuming aging.   )


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 6, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> Next, Palm Throw allows each attacks to be 2 daggers (each with the chance of critting and getting the sneak damage. Unlike Manyshot, nothing in any text precludes this).




Except that, for all such circumstances where multiple attacks are made, only one can gain sneak attack or other precision damage.  That's a general rule that was restated specifically for Manyshot, not a specific rule for the one feat.


----------



## Keia (Mar 6, 2004)

If Ghost is a problem, you may want to look at Risen Martyr in the exalted deeds book.  It has many of the similar traits (having no Con score, etc.), but no intangibility or other 'ghostly' powers (and no Ghost ECL).  Along with Gestalt, might be rather powerful.

Keia


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 6, 2004)

Keia said:
			
		

> If Ghost is a problem, you may want to look at Risen Martyr in the exalted deeds book.  It has many of the similar traits (having no Con score, etc.), but no intangibility or other 'ghostly' powers (and no Ghost ECL).  Along with Gestalt, might be rather powerful.
> 
> Keia




The problem is that I only own the core rules, and therefore can't create a character that is viable compared to some of the others in this game. If I play him conventionally he's soon going to be nothing more than ectoplasmic goo dissipating in the ethereal... It might be an interesting challenge, to say the least.

Cream; any chance to get a reduction of the ecl? It was obviously not determined with gestalt characters in mind.


----------



## Keia (Mar 6, 2004)

CS,

Are we starting with the minimum xps for 13th.  I'm asking to see if we have any extra xps for item creation, permanency spells, etc.

If not I won't bother with taking any item creation feats and the like.

Thanks!
Keia


----------



## Uriel (Mar 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Except that, for all such circumstances where multiple attacks are made, only one can gain sneak attack or other precision damage.  That's a general rule that was restated specifically for Manyshot, not a specific rule for the one feat.




If you hadn't all guessed yet, I am a bit disgusted with the amount of possible damage myself.
However...
Please point me in the right direction (as in page X of Core Book X), so that I, too, can read this rule.


----------



## Keia (Mar 6, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> If you hadn't all guessed yet, I am a bit disgusted with the amount of possible damage myself.
> However...
> Please point me in the right direction (as in page X of Core Book X), so that I, too, can read this rule.




You have quickdraw, too, right?  Otherwise, drawing all of those daggers might be difficult.

I've read that multiple hits from a single attack roll, only one can have the crit chance and sneak damage, but I haven't found it in writing in the core (books are too darn confusing).  The multiple hit rule comes from manyshot, and from spells such as Scorching ray and the like . . . or so I thought.

Keia


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 6, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> If you hadn't all guessed yet, I am a bit disgusted with the amount of possible damage myself.
> However...
> Please point me in the right direction (as in page X of Core Book X), so that I, too, can read this rule.




Sage Advice after Sage Advice.  I don't recall it anywhere in the SRD besides Manyshot.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Sage Advice after Sage Advice.  I don't recall it anywhere in the SRD besides Manyshot.



With an issue number I can post the advice upon this.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

I have bad news...  I honestly do not think I can give this game the time it deserves.  I've had another game, long delayed, start this week and I have a Midnight game starting sometime soon and to choose between it and this simply isn't fair, as I've been waiting half a year for a midnight game.

Sorry for all the trouble.

I do have an active intrest in seeing how these rules work out so I'll be around to help in anyway that I can.


----------



## Uriel (Mar 7, 2004)

Keia said:
			
		

> You have quickdraw, too, right?  Otherwise, drawing all of those daggers might be difficult.
> 
> I've read that multiple hits from a single attack roll, only one can have the crit chance and sneak damage, but I haven't found it in writing in the core (books are too darn confusing).  The multiple hit rule comes from manyshot, and from spells such as Scorching ray and the like . . . or so I thought.
> 
> Keia




Of course I have Quickdraw.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Mar 7, 2004)

Keia said:
			
		

> CS,
> 
> Are we starting with the minimum xps for 13th.  I'm asking to see if we have any extra xps for item creation, permanency spells, etc.
> 
> ...






			
				Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Hrm... roll d% and multiply the percentage by the amount of experience you need to level up. You currently need 13,000 xp. This will apply to everyone.
> 
> 100% = 000% so that nobody can "quite" level up.




Hep.


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## Keia (Mar 7, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> Of course I have Quickdraw.




I knew that 

By the way . . . still workin on my Gestalt Wizard/Fighter 5, Wizard/Order of the Bow 1, Wizard/Arcane Archer 7.

Keia


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## Uriel (Mar 7, 2004)

*The Song that inspired my character...cheesy, I know.*

_The Sentinel_ {Judas Priest}


Along deserted avenues
Steam begins to rise
The figures primed and ready
Prepared for quick surprise
He's watching for a sign
His life is on the line
Dogs whine in the alleys
Smoke is on the wind
From deep inside its empty shell
A cathedral bell begins
Ringing out its toll
A storm beings to grow
Amidst the upturned burned-out cars
The challengers await
And in their fists clutch iron bars
With which to seal his fate
Across his chest in scabbards rest
The rows of throwing knives
Whose razor points in challenged tests
Have finished many lives
Now facing as another
The stand-off eats at time
Then all at once a silence falls
As the bell ceases its chime
Upon this sing the challengers
With shrieks and cries rush forth
The knives fly out like bullets
Upon their deadly course
Screams of pain and agony
Rent the silent air
Amidst the dying bodies
Blood runs everywhere
The figure stands expressionless
Impassive and alone
Unmoved by this victory
And the seeds of death he's sown
Sworn to avenge condemn to hell
Tempt not the blade all fear the Sentinel


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## Keia (Mar 7, 2004)

Thomas Hobbes said:
			
		

> Hep.




Missed that, but a question on it . . . are we rolling the d100 or are you CS?

Keia


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## Creamsteak (Mar 8, 2004)

Players roll the D100.

Right now I'm a comp with some severe registry issues. I'll inform when I'm done fixing them. Till then, don't expect me to post. It shouldn't take more than a day, I hope.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 9, 2004)

Serpenteyes said:
			
		

> Cream; any chance to get a reduction of the ecl? It was obviously not determined with gestalt characters in mind.




My only concern with reducing the ECL is that, as a ghost, your nearly immune to death. Of course, at 13th level it is quite possible for a cleric to cast a raise-dead spell to revive characters in the field (10 minutes to cast, right?) A ghost is eliminated for days at a time, so perhaps the 5 level adjustment is a bit much...

I might be ameniable to a LA of +3. Though a ghost's abilities are very unusual and most are not available to a PC normally...

Anyone have any comments on the subject? I'm a bit weary to reduce a template adjustment.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Mar 9, 2004)

I don't think +3 sounds terribly unreasonable.  In a Gestalt game, each level lost is _almost_ like losing two, so _almost_ halving the LA seems OK.  That's just my (admittedly not terribly confident) two cents.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 10, 2004)

Is anyone still around, or did I lose half my players here?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 10, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Is anyone still around, or did I lose half my players here?




I'm still here.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Mar 10, 2004)

Still present, with chracter statted out in terms of levels, feats, and magic items.  I just need to run the calculations (total attack bonuses, etc.) and post him.


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## Hammerhead (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm still here, and ready to go.


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## Uriel (Mar 10, 2004)

Here.
About 90% done. 
Do we have a start date/time? I can finish him in an hour if need be.


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## Keia (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm here. Got stuck working out of town.  Can post character probably within the day.

Small change.  Moved from Arcane archer to Order of the bow.  Just not as important to be an Arcane Archer with greater magic weapon available.

Keia


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## Creamsteak (Mar 10, 2004)

Not even the 4 levels or whatever it is to imbue spells into arrows? I always liked the "arrow delivered fireballs" myself...


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## Keia (Mar 10, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Not even the 4 levels or whatever it is to imbue spells into arrows? I always liked the "arrow delivered fireballs" myself...




not with the range of a 13th lvl caster.  Really didn't matter much, when 4d8 additional damage on every arrow from Order o the Bow comes into play (within range limits of course).


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## Dalamar (Mar 10, 2004)

Still here. It just seems wierd when you seem to have _less_ time when you don't have to go to school.


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## Kalanyr (Mar 11, 2004)

Yeah I'm here. And I sympathise with you on that Dalamar, it seems no matter what the change is your free time decreases.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 11, 2004)

I'm here. An LA of +3 sounds just about right, thanks Creamsteak (and TH)  
I'll have the character done and formatted today. I'm a bit concerned that my stat block is going to be a bit hard to read in the recommended format because the special abilities will require a lot of space and make the stat block very blockish. I obviously prefer the format I'm already using, since it's easier for me to reference, but it's no big deal.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 11, 2004)

Well, since the adventure is pretty simple to run for me (since it's a pdf module and all), I'll just wait for a group to finish characters and then start it up.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 12, 2004)

Character finished.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 14, 2004)

Bump.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 14, 2004)

We've got three characters done; do we want to start as soon as a fourth is ready?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 14, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> We've got three characters done; do we want to start as soon as a fourth is ready?



Well, to be honest I still have a vested interest in this concept, maybe more so.  I still have my paperwork for my fighter/rogue and all I truly need to do is spend my money.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 14, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well, to be honest I still have a vested interest in this concept, maybe more so.  I still have my paperwork for my fighter/rogue and all I truly need to do is spend my money.




Then, by all means, spend away!


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 14, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Then, by all means, spend away!



Hmmm Did CS give my spot away?  I was still subscribed but I wasn't reading every post.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 14, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Hmmm Did CS give my spot away?  I was still subscribed but I wasn't reading every post.



No spots have been given away, as far as I know.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 14, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> No spots have been given away, as far as I know.



Rog, I'll start to work on it tonight then.


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## Kalanyr (Mar 14, 2004)

Hey Serpenteye I was just browing through the rogues Gallery and noticed your ghost has Constitution of 0, indicating a death by ability loss to age is that supposed to be like that ?

On and you've also cheated yourself out of a few hitpoints CS uses half as 6.5 of a d12 so you'd have 70.5 hp rounded of to 70 not 66.


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## Keia (Mar 14, 2004)

*Garrick Stormarrow, *
*Neutral Good Wizard/Fighter 5, Fighter/SpellSword 1, Wizard/Order of the Bow 7*
*Hit Dice:* 10 + 5d10 + 7d8 + 26 (123 hp)
*Initiative:* +10 (Dex +6, Improved Initiative +4)
*Speed:* 30 ft. (*Light Load:* 37.0 lb./266.0 lb.)
*AC:* 33 (10 Base +6 dex, +8 armor, +6 shield, +2 deflection, +2 natural) Flat: 27, Touch: 18
*Full Attacks:* +1 (Mighty +5) Composite Longbow (GMW’ed to +4) +26/+26/+21/+16 missile (1d8+11 (+2d6 holy, +2d6 Evil Outsider)/19-20x3 piercing), +1 hit and damage within 30’, +4d8 precision within 30’ 
*Attacks:* +1 (Mighty +5) Composite Longbow (GMW’ed to +4) +20 missile (3d8+33 (+2d6 holy, +2d6 Evil Outsider)/19-20x3 piercing), +1 hit and damage within 30’ +4d8 precision within 30’ 
*Racial Traits (ECL +0):* Bonus feat, Bonus skill point per level, favored class (highest),
*Class Features:* Ignore Spell Failure (10%), Ranged Precision (+4d8), Close Combat Shot, Greater Weapon Focus, Sharp shooting, light armor proficiency, medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, martial weapon proficiency (all), mettle, simple weapon proficiency (all), summon familiar
*Saves:* Fort +14.33, Ref +18, Will +16; (+3 Cloak, +2 Reflex from Familiar, both included)
*Abilities:* Str 14 (20), Dex 16 (22), Con 14, Int 16 (20), Wis 14, Cha 8
*Skills:* Climb +5 [2 ranks], Concentration +18 [16 ranks], Craft (armor) +6 [1 rank], Craft (blacksmith) +6 [1 rank], Craft (weapon) +6 [1 rank], Decipher Script +21 [16 ranks], Handle Animal +1 [2 ranks], Intimidate +1 [2 ranks], Jump +7 [2 ranks], Knowledge (arcana) +21 [16 ranks], Knowledge (history) +9 [4 ranks], Knowledge (nature) +9 [4 ranks], Knowledge (planes) +21 [16 ranks], Knowledge (religion) +6 [1 rank], Knowledge (war) +7 [2 ranks], Spellcraft +21 [16 ranks], Spot +15 [8 CC ranks, +5 circumstance], Swim +7 [2 ranks]; +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, +2  Alertness bonus to Listen and Spot when familiar is within arms reach, 
*Feats:* Improved Initiative (human), Point Blank Shot (1st), Precise Shot (Ftr 1), Weapon Focus (Longbow) (Ftr 2), Rapid Shot (3rd), Weapon Specialization (Ftr 4th), Craft Wondrous (Wiz 5th), Many shot (6th), Improved Rapid Shot (Ftr 6th), Improved Critical (9th), Craft Arms and Armor (Wiz 10th), Improved Precise Shot (12th), [Scribe Scroll], [Greater Weapon Focus], [Sharp Shooting]
*Languages:* Common, Draconic, Elven, + 1 other

*Ranged Precision +4d8(Ex):* As a standard action, the Initiate can make single aimed attack with a ranged weapon deals additional damage (+4d8).  Attack must be within 30 feet and damage does not apply to creatures immune to criticals.  May only be taken on a wespon with which the initiate has weapon focus.

*Close Combat Shot (Ex):*  An initiate can attack with a ranged weapon while in a threatened square and not provoke an attack of opportunity.  

*Spell-like abilities:* See Invisibility (permanent effect).

*Familiar* 
*Weasel (Tiny Animal)* - *HD:* 13d8 (hp 61); *Initiative:* +2; *Speed:* 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; *AC:* 21 (+2 size, +2 dex, +7 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 19; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +13/+1; *Attack:* Bite +17 melee (+13 Base +2 Size +2 Dex) (1d3-4); *Full Attack:* Bite +17 melee (+13 Base +2 Size +2 Dex) (1d3-4); *Space/Reach:* 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Attach; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent, alertness, empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, deliver touch spell, speak with master, speak with animals, spell resistance (18), Scry on Familiar; *Saves:* Fort +9.33, Reflex +9, Will +12; *Abilities:* Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 5;*Skills:* Balance +10, Concentration +16, Climb +10, Craft (various) +2, Decipher Script  +17, Handle Animal -1, Intimidate -1, Hide +11, Jump -1, Knowledge (Arcane) +17, Knowledge (History) +5, Knowledge (Nature) +5,  Knowledge (Planes) +16,  Knowledge (Religion) +2, Knowledge (War) +3, Move Silently +8, Spellcraft +17, Spot +9, Swim -1; *Feats:* Weapon finesse

*Wizard Spells* (Caster Level 13)
*0th (4/day) DC 15* - _Detect Magic (x2)_, _Prestidigitation_, _Read Magic_
*1st (6/day) DC 16* - _Identify_, _Magic Missile (x3)_, _Shield__True Strike _
*2nd (5/day) DC 17* - _Knock_, _Mirror Image (x2)_, _Protection from Arrows_, _Scorching Ray_
*3rd (5/day) DC 18* - _Dispel Magic_, _Haste (x2)_, _Greater Magic Weapon (x2)_
*4th (5/day) DC 19* - _Enervation (x2)_, _Greater Invisibility_, _Polymorph_
*5th (4/day) DC 20* - _Cone of Cold_, _Hold Monster_, _Teleport_, _Wall of Force_
*6th (2/day) DC 21* - _Disintegrate_, _Greater Heroism_
*7th (1/day) DC 22* - _Spell Turning_

*Equipment* (108,170/110,000 gp)
+4 Mithral Chain shirt (9,100 gp, 1,280 xp) [12.5 lb.]
+4 Mithral Buckler (9,100 gp, 1,280 xp) [2.5 lb.]
+1 (Mighty +5) Composite Longbow of Holy and Bane (Evil Outsiders) (16,900 gp, 1,440xp) [3 lb.]
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (4,000 gp, 320 xp)
Eyes of the Eagle (1,250 gp, 100 xp)
Bracers of Archery, Lesser (2,500 gp, 200 xp) [1 lb.]
Alchemically silvered arrows x20 (41 gp) [3 lb.]
Cold Iron arrows x20 (2 gp) [3 lb.]
Adamantine arrows x10 (600 gp) [3 lb.]
Ring of Protection +2 (8,000 gp)
Headband of Intellect  +4 (8,000 gp, 640 xp) 
Gloves of Dexterity  +6 (18,000 gp, 1,440 xp) 
Belt of Strength  +6 (18,000 gp, 1,440 xp) [1 lb.]
Cloak of Resistance +3 (4,500 gp, 360 xp) [1 lb.]
Efficient Quiver (900 gp, 72 xp) [2 lb.]
Blessed Book (6,250 gp, 500 xp) [1 lb.]
Pearls for Identify [10] (1,000 gp)
Warhammer (12 gp) [5 lb.]
Weasel familiar (100 gp)


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 14, 2004)

We do have a Rogue's Gallery.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 14, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> We do have a Rogue's Gallery.



Of course here’s thelink.


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## Keia (Mar 15, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> We do have a Rogue's Gallery.




Sorry 'bout that.  I had already posted it here,then realized that 'here' wasn't the rogue's gallery and there was one.  Hadn't bookmarked it.  I fixed it by adding it to the Rogue's gallery almost immediately thereafter.  I can remove it from this thread if its preferred. 

Keia


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 15, 2004)

Keia said:
			
		

> Sorry 'bout that.  I had already posted it here,then realized that 'here' wasn't the rogue's gallery and there was one.  Hadn't bookmarked it.  I fixed it by adding it to the Rogue's gallery almost immediately thereafter.  I can remove it from this thread if its preferred.
> 
> Keia




I don't mind myself; just wanted to make sure that it ended up where it needed to be.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 15, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I don't mind myself; just wanted to make sure that it ended up where it needed to be.



And here I thought you where legitimate lost.. 


again.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 15, 2004)

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Hey Serpenteye I was just browing through the rogues Gallery and noticed your ghost has Constitution of 0, indicating a death by ability loss to age is that supposed to be like that ?




Hmm, yes it is... A horrible filthy death from the desease of ageing, from which there is no cure and no return. A death filled with sorrow and anguish over a life not fully lived and an eternity deprived, the certainty that the afterlife would be painful beyond imagining. He spent his long and horrible death fighting against unbeing with all the power of his will, and when he finally died he found that he had saved himself. Some might call that a happy ending, but in fact it was only the beginning. 



			
				Kalanyr said:
			
		

> On and you've also cheated yourself out of a few hitpoints CS uses half as 6.5 of a d12 so you'd have 70.5 hp rounded of to 70 not 66.




Thanks. I've got a feeling I'm going to need every point.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 17, 2004)

We've got 4,5 finished characters. So why not let the game begin?


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## Creamsteak (Mar 17, 2004)

I'm on spring break in 48 hours. At which point, you won't be seeing me for a week. I'll start up this game when I get back, but I won't have any decent internet access until then. I will be starting up this game and my LEW game, and continuing my other LEW game then. All three are at big turning points, and I'd hate to start that up and then cliffhang for a week.


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## Keia (Mar 17, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> I'm on spring break in 48 hours.




Enjoy the break, CS . . . you lucky dog. 

Keia


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## Creamsteak (Mar 29, 2004)

I'm back. Who is ready?


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## Serpenteye (Mar 29, 2004)

I am.


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## Keia (Mar 29, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> I'm back. Who is ready?




I'm still here.  How was break?

Keia


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## Creamsteak (Mar 29, 2004)

Well enough. I came back to school to find certain things were confiscated as evidence against my roomate though, including my F-ing Pillows. I have no pillows, and I don't know why they took them!


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## Keia (Mar 29, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Well enough. I came back to school to find certain things were confiscated as evidence against my roomate though, including my F-ing Pillows. I have no pillows, and I don't know why they took them!




That's Harsh!!  

Keia

_ps. hate to see the claim on that one . . "Yeah, the school took my pillows, where do I get a receipt for them at."_


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 29, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> I'm back. Who is ready?




Ready to rock and roll.  Or hit things.  Or both at once.


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## Hammerhead (Mar 29, 2004)

HH is ready.

 HH is also referring to himself in the third person, which is more than a little weird.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 29, 2004)

I've got two things that will fill my time tonight, but we will start tomorrow.


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## Kalanyr (Mar 30, 2004)

I'll get my final character posted in the next hour I hope.


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## Creamsteak (Apr 1, 2004)

I've got the thread up, but it'll be a nother couple hours before I post the introduction. If you get a chance, tell me what alignment you think the party is.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 2, 2004)

CS, hey you can remove my character from the RG.  I've never finished him and I just don't have the time for this game.  Sorry.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 2, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> I've got the thread up, but it'll be a nother couple hours before I post the introduction. If you get a chance, tell me what alignment you think the party is.




Mostly neutral, with one good and one evil (I). Our motivation would probably be self-interest, either a mercenary arrangement, general opportunism, or a fight in defence of our selves. Perhaps a combination of the above.
 I haven't really decided the personality of my character yet. The powers of a Ghost would be somewhat wasted on a non-evil character, but I'll adapt to the rest of the party.


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## Creamsteak (Apr 3, 2004)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82571

The thread is ready.


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## Uriel (Apr 3, 2004)

I think I might need to drop out as well. I haven't finished my character fully and folks are itching to play. My spot stands open.


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## Creamsteak (Apr 3, 2004)

I'm suspecting that this will be a one party affair, which is entirely acceptable to me.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Apr 3, 2004)

I'm in much the same position as Uriel, although I'm still willing to write my character up.  I'm not sure if there's room for him, but I'll do it anyways.  My apologies for being slackerly in this respect.


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## nameless (Apr 10, 2004)

I think I posted way back at the beginning of this affair to see if there was still space, and there apparenty wasn't. I'd still love to jump in on this, though. I could probably roll something up today if things move that quickly (and assuming your list of alternates isn't already established).


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## Creamsteak (Apr 10, 2004)

Since we have already began, and this is a harcore dungeon crawl, you have to ask the other players that are already involved. It is entirely up to them (meaning, I'm fine with the idea, but I wouldn't force another character into the group).


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## nameless (Apr 10, 2004)

No problem. I'm in the middle of rolling up a Sorceror 13/Paladin 5-Hunter of the Dead 8 with a Vow of Poverty. What do you think, guys?

EDIT: Finished him up. Go ahead and take a look.


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## Creamsteak (Apr 10, 2004)

Vow of Poverty, only clause I have is that we use my interpretation of the potion bit.

The Vow states you cannot ever use a magic item, own a magic item, or possess a magic item. The Vow states that another character can use a magic item (such as a wand or scroll) on a character. Included in the examples of items that another character can use on the Vow of Poverty character is a potion of cure light wounds. My interpretation is, the one I believe is correct, is that the only way a potion of cure light wounds can be used by another character on the Vow character is by applying the potion to a downed character as a full-round action.

If there are any questions on that, or if I didn't explain it very well, just ask.


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## nameless (Apr 10, 2004)

That's okay with me. I think it gives the potion exception because it's a bit silly when you're *conscious* to make your friend pour it in your mouth instead of just grabbing it yourself. I don't mind that interpretation, though, it sounds fair enough to me.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 11, 2004)

nameless said:
			
		

> No problem. I'm in the middle of rolling up a Sorceror 13/Paladin 5-Hunter of the Dead 8 with a Vow of Poverty. What do you think, guys?
> 
> EDIT: Finished him up. Go ahead and take a look.




As long as he won't immediately go berzerk and try to kill my character for no good reason I don't have a problem with it. Welcome to the party.


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## nameless (Apr 11, 2004)

No immediate berzerking. From what's happened so far, your character doesn't seem to be the nicest or most scrupulous person, which could be a point of contention (IC). The Hunter of the Dead is willing to say that not all undead are bad, but the Paladin still has to be a Paladin. =]

Should I just jump into the IC thread, or do you want to introduce me somewhere, Creamsteak?


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## Hammerhead (Apr 12, 2004)

Of course, I would hardly consider attacking someone because he's a twisted and disturbing undead ghost who dominates human slaves to be "no good reason." 

Your character looks cool.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 12, 2004)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> Of course, I would hardly consider attacking someone because he's a twisted and disturbing undead ghost who dominates human slaves to be "no good reason."




That might be a good reason if the twisted and disturbing ghost wasn't your companion on a quest to "save the world", fighting a much more agressive and dangerous evil enemy.  
If the Paladin's code of honour is interpreted strictly he might have a hard time keeping his paladinhood while associating with an evil companion. That's obviously up to Creamsteak to decide, but I would advise against entering a game where you will be more or less forced to execute a senior player's character. 
Your character looks very cool, though, and I'm sure he could be a nice addition to the group.


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## Creamsteak (Apr 12, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> That might be a good reason if the twisted and disturbing ghost wasn't your companion on a quest to "save the world", fighting a much more agressive and dangerous evil enemy.
> If the Paladin's code of honour is interpreted strictly he might have a hard time keeping his paladinhood while associating with an evil companion. That's obviously up to Creamsteak to decide, but I would advise against entering a game where you will be more or less forced to execute a senior player's character.
> Your character looks very cool, though, and I'm sure he could be a nice addition to the group.



 Depends on your take. Exalted feats have the requirement that a character be played in an exalted manner. One of the many many many layers of examples they make in the book is that an Exalted character loses the feats for taking an evil action for the greater good. Even though "stabbing the paladin" (evil) is going to eliminate all demons for all of eternity (good, very good), it would cause the character to lose access to exalted feats. Even more directly, the book gives an example of a character sacrificing themselves for a higher good can end up being considered an evil action and result in them nolonger being considered exalted.

I'm possibly a bit lax on the latter, but I would understand it if a player running an exalted character would feel that the presence of a powerful undead that took steps to dominate people was an evil in need of destruction.



On another subject, I wanted to turn back to VoP and try and persuede my opinion onto everyone.

The text I'm referring to I'll quote:



> To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, ***Omitted example***, wear simple clothes ***Omitted example***, with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. *You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf*...




What follows are examples of "magic items you recieve the benefit of, used on your behalf."



> 1)You can drink a potion of cure serious wounds *a friend gives you*
> 2) recieve a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff or ride your companion's ebony fly




Note the bold. What is the only way that you can drink a cure serious wounds potion that A) a friend gives you, B) is used on your behalf, C) You did not use (activate). I think the only example in the Player's handbook is the example of a character applying a potion to another character as a full-round-action.

Also, at the end there are notes such as (Paraphrased) "you may not, however, borrow any magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you cast a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff).


----------



## Creamsteak (Apr 12, 2004)

So, what's going to happen? You guys need to tell me (preferrably today or tomorrow).

I'll continue the game another post here in a few hours (after dinner and homework).


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 13, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> So, what's going to happen? You guys need to tell me (preferrably today or tomorrow).




I'm moving trough the door to the south.


----------



## Creamsteak (Apr 13, 2004)

I meant about the new player. Although I know that it seems everyone is fine with it, I want to confirm that if things heat up (and it sounds like they might) everyone is ok with that.


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## Keia (Apr 13, 2004)

It really doesn't matter to me either way.  Always interested in add'l players (especially for a dungeon crawl), but I also understand the issues for the group dynamic as well.

Keia


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## nameless (Apr 13, 2004)

[Grrr, I typed a couple of paragraphs reply and my browser crashed]

I'm planning to play as more of a compassionate paladin than a righteous one. He holds himself to higher standards than everyone else (though he still doesn't tolerate evil to go unpunished. Not all punishments are violent, however). I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on what my character's code is (and I could write a sort of mission statement if you like), but feel free to smack me OOC if you think I inadvertently propose something inappropriate IC.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 13, 2004)

I've no qualms against adding him in.


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## nameless (Apr 17, 2004)

Am I playing, then? And should I just jump IC as if I know the group and am lagging behind?


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## Creamsteak (Apr 17, 2004)

nameless said:
			
		

> Am I playing, then? And should I just jump IC as if I know the group and am lagging behind?



Introduce yourself however you feel best fits your character. Your in.


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## Kalanyr (May 1, 2004)

Sorry about the late notice, but I'm going to official drop outa this school has kept me busy and its way to late to come in now.


----------

