# (OT) Hmmm Star Wars II Seen it I have! Continued



## Piratecat (May 18, 2002)

Continued from the other thread!

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12955&perpage=30&pagenumber=1


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## Rashak Mani (May 18, 2002)

As for the Hitler comments one should notice how a countries Leader can lead a country into becoming an aggressive and expansionist country just manipulating basic feelings of patriotism and indignation.

   Many modern examples show how the population is taken along gradually for a ride into ever more tyrannical policies. When you notice it happening its too late.

   (Havent seen EpII... but the rise and fall of tyrants can be fast... or not )


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## Upper_Krust (May 18, 2002)

Hi all! 

Just got back from seeing Attack of the Clones; all I will say is...

Impressive...most impressive.


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## Nightfall (May 18, 2002)

So does that mean you're going to start cloning gods now Krusty mate?


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## Zappo (May 18, 2002)

Dahak, in the thread about the birth of Anakin, suggested that the midichlorians knew about the imbalance Palpatine was about to bring in the Force and created Anakin to restore the balance.

I think that at the beginning of episode 1, the force is already seriously imbalanced. It's leaning heavily to the light side. There are dozens of light jedis, who wield an enormous political power to boot, while the one or two sith have to stay in hiding. Therefore, Anakin is _supposed_ to become evil, because that's how he will fulfill the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force.


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## Creeping Death (May 18, 2002)

Zappo said:
			
		

> *Dahak, in the thread about the birth of Anakin, suggested that the midichlorians knew about the imbalance Palpatine was about to bring in the Force and created Anakin to restore the balance.
> 
> I think that at the beginning of episode 1, the force is already seriously imbalanced. It's leaning heavily to the light side. There are dozens of light jedis, who wield an enormous political power to boot, while the one or two sith have to stay in hiding. Therefore, Anakin is supposed to become evil, because that's how he will fulfill the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force. *




And Yoda and the rest of the Jedi council wasn't wise enough to figure this out?  Hmm.... Bring balance to the force?  Thousands of good Jedi and two evil Jedi.... forget balance, I'd have killed the boy right then and there, then smacked Quigon for bringing him in.

I did enjoy episode II very much.  I liked they way Anakin was portrayed.  The scenes of him finding his mother all they way til he confesses to Padme are my favorite so far.


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## Ristamar (May 18, 2002)

Commenting on some posts from the other thread...


> *Palaptine is a clone...Darth Sidious is manipulating him. Hence why the Council cannot detect the Drak Side when it is 3 feet from them.*



Certainly a possibility, though considering how powerful Sidious is, it wouldn't be hard to fathom that he has some way of masking his presence among the Jedi as long as he doesn't blatantly use the Force (especially Dark Side powers) while they are near.


> *Darth Sidious is Jedi Master Sipherdias (sp?), the one who supposedly died years and years ago but yet ordered the clone army from Kamino...*



That was my initial reaction, as well, but then I changed my mind.  I believe it might have been Dooku that placed the order under the guise of Master Sifo-Dyas, since Jango specifically mentioned a man named Tyranus hired him for the cloning job, not Master Sifo-Dyas (that's the spelling according to the scripts online *shrug*).  And at the end of the movie, we learn Dooku's Sith name is Darth Tyranus (or Lord Tyranus).

Of course, Dooku seems confused by how the Republic could've amassed such an army during the battle on Geonosis.  However, it's likely he was just acting ignorant in front of his supporters so he wouldn't be suspected of treachery.  It appears that starting the war was the primary goal of Sidious and Tyranus:

COUNT DOOKU -- _The Force is with us, my Master._

DARTH SIDIOUS -- _Welcome home, Lord Tyranus. You have done well._

COUNT DOOKU -- _I bring you good news, my Lord.  War has begun._

DARTH SIDIOUS -- _Excellent. (smiling) Everything is going as planned._


> *That business about Palpatine's lightning killing him - Luke withstood it for 30 seconds or more, and 7 seconds of it kills Anakin ... very fault machinery for Anakin? More likely very hard to believe.)*



Well, Vader had already been weakened by his fight with Luke.  Plus, he was probably still somewhat in shock since he just had his hand cut off.  Palapatine's Force Lighting was also hitting him in the face at point blank range.  There's also the fact that Vader was more machine than man.  Vader needed that suit to survive.  Perhaps the lightning destroyed his life support systems.  Oh, and I almost forgot...  there's a Force power that lets you basically absorb and dissipate energy, to a certain extent.  Luke was probably putting that to use as much as possible.


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## Darklance (May 18, 2002)

I can believe that the cloners could have had the army ready and that they might have provided them with the armor and blasters. But where did the army get a hold of/build tons of victory class star destroyers(were they victory class SDs?)/troop transports/laser batteries?


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## Ristamar (May 18, 2002)

Creeping Death said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And Yoda and the rest of the Jedi council wasn't wise enough to figure this out?  Hmm.... Bring balance to the force?  Thousands of good Jedi and two evil Jedi.... forget balance, I'd have killed the boy right then and there, then smacked Quigon for bringing him in.
> 
> I did enjoy episode II very much.  I liked they way Anakin was portrayed.  The scenes of him finding his mother all they way til he confesses to Padme are my favorite so far. *




Yeah, that would seem to be the obvious explanation, but I think it goes deeper than that.  There seemed to be some hints dropped in Episode II about the need to bring balance to the Force.  

After Obi-Wan informs Yoda and Master Windu that a clone army is being created, Yoda shakes his head and makes the "blind, we are" comment since they didn't know of the creation of said army.  Windu makes a suggestion to Yoda, saying they should inform the senate that the Jedi are losing their ability to use the Force.  Yoda dissuades him from this course of action, fearing it will only cause more people to lose faith in the Republic and subsequently break away.

All in all, perhaps their interpretation of the prophecy involves the Chosen One somehow being able stabilize the Jedi's ability to use the Force.


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## Wicht (May 18, 2002)

Just got back from seeing it for the first time.

All in all I am very impressed, I did not even mind the "love scenes" since they were not IMO too overbearing and provided a needed explanation for the birth of Luke and Leah.  I have to laugh... those that complain about having the scenes in there would complain equally if suddenly in the middle of episode III you find that Padme is pregnant and there had been no in story explanation for why she agreed to marry Anakin.

Actually, to me the most striking scene(s) in the whole movie did not involve fights or special effects but involved the relationship between the two Fetts.  In the arena when the boy is holding his fathers head to his own I must confess I felt myself moved and the two actors involved in my mind did a superb job of showing the closeness between father and son.


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## Dagger75 (May 18, 2002)

I have a nagging question about Anakina and Padme. Really what does she see in that arrogant punk.  I have a feeling Anakin is using the force even if he doesn't know it to make Padme fall in love with him. Just a thought.


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## Corinth (May 18, 2002)

I think it's the other way around.  I think that it is Padme who's using Anakin.


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## Wicht (May 18, 2002)

Corinth said:
			
		

> *I think it's the other way around.  I think that it is Padme who's using Anakin. *




Such cynics. 

I think it is exactly what it appears to be.  An innocent but tragic and misguided love.  

And I notice as well, that just as in Empire, the princess could not express what she felt until in danger of losing it, so too Padme cannot express it to Anakin until she is faced with loss.  Of course I think Empire conveyed that a bit better than Clones but the Mother and Daughter are following the same pattern story-wise.


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## Corinth (May 18, 2002)

Been in Anakin's position.  Got screwed over for my efforts.  Wish I had Force powers and a red lightsaber to compensate for losing five years of my life.


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## Wicht (May 18, 2002)

Corinth said:
			
		

> *Been in Anakin's position.  Got screwed over for my efforts.  Wish I had Force powers and a red lightsaber to compensate for losing five years of my life. *




You were seduced by a senator who bore your children and then ran away when you grew violent and anti-social!!!

That is some life you have led.  You should publish it.



Sorry... could not resist.  Do you think however you might be projecting just a tad?


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## Psion (May 19, 2002)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> *I have a nagging question about Anakina and Padme. Really what does she see in that arrogant punk.  I have a feeling Anakin is using the force even if he doesn't know it to make Padme fall in love with him. Just a thought. *




Quick... how many times have you said "what does she see in that jerk" in real life?


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## Lady Dragon (May 19, 2002)

I feel that Anakin and Padme's love story is going to be the most important part of the whole story not only because of the obvious birth of the twins but  rather because of how I think Anakin will react when she is killed in the 3rd episode.We seen forshadowing of this with the death of Shmi and how badly Anakin lost his temper and gave in to his anger.

Remenber what Yoda told Luke about anger and the dark side.Anakin will turn to the Dark side when he is again powerless to stop the death of a loved one mainly Padme.Prehaps this will also be the insident which makes him dependant on life-support.

As for the rest of episode 3 Obi-wan and Yoda will flee with the infants the other Jedi will die and Palpatine will openly admit he is the lord of the sith.No I don't believe Palpatine is a clone of Darth Sidious they are the same otherwise the Emporor would have used the name Sidius and not his real name Palpatine as emporor.

As for real names I think Anakin chooses to use Vader as his name not because he is hiding his identity but because he leaves that part of his life behind.


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## Wicht (May 19, 2002)

I am not sure I agree that Padme is going to die in the next movie.  In Return of the Jedi, when Luke asks Leia about her mother, Leia has memories of her.

Personally I think the 3rd movie will have Yoda, Obiwan and Padme all fleeing with Padme eventually going one way with the girl and Obi-wan going another way with the boy.

As for Vader's name change, each Sith Lord adopts a new name - haven't you noticed...  Dooku becomes Tyranous, Palpatine becomes Sidious, Anakin becomes Vader.  Maul, well, I don't know what his name was.  Each Sith name has an evil connotation (are they pure latin??? anyone know?)  Maul and Tyranous are fairly easy to see in regards to meaning.  Sidious is IMO a shortening of Insidious and Vader a shortening of Invader


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## Lady Dragon (May 19, 2002)

Leia may have been thinking of her adoptive mother or perhaps the twins are a bit older than infants maybe 2-3 when all of this happens but they made too big a deal out of Shmi's death and Anakin's reactions for it not to be a forshadowing of events to come.

Also If Padme didn't die where was she in the final three movies I don't believe she would allow herself to be separated from her son she is a proud noblewoman.


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## Gargoyle (May 19, 2002)

Saw it last night for the second time.

I'm a fan(atic), so I can't give an objective review, or at least the skeptics won't trust any review I give as "objective", but here goes anyway:

I really liked the plot, most of the acting, the new characters, and the action was incredibly good.  I really enjoyed Anakin's scene with his mother and what followed, Yoda in every scene he was in , and the sight of so many jedi fighting in the same place.   Another thing about Yoda:  the scene with the jedi children contrasted nicely with Yoda's big fight scene later, while complimenting it at the same time.  Very nicely done.   

As far as acting, I can't recall a scene that featured really bad acting , though I remember a few where I was disappointed that Lucas didn't get a better performance.  I was impressed by Anakin, Palpatine, Jango and Boba Fett, and especially Christopher Lee.  Anyone who can make me take a villain named "Count Dooku" seriously is an Actor with a capital A.

Some of my dislikes:  The banter between Anakin and Obi-Wan seemed a bit forced, especially at the beginning of the movie.  I think it could have been done better.  Overall, I liked their interactions, but there was room for improvement.

The business with C3PO toward the end would have been better without the lame one-liners.  I started to wonder if I was in a film with an Arnold Swarzenegger parody.   I do think the comic relief was necessary, and having threepio taken apart  is a tradition, .  

R2D2 can fly?  I wonder why he didn't do it in Episodes IV - VI?  That could have been left out.  R2 is impressive because of his courage and cleverness, not because of his gadgets.

My biggest complaint is the pacing.  The movie had too many scenes of the same nature back-to-back.  Love-scenes followed by three more love-scenes and several political scenes followed by several action scenes isn't good drama.  I agree with many others that the movie wasn't paced as well as it could have been. 

One problem that non-fans  (or perhaps casual fans) may have with it is that the plot is complex.  To really understand what's going on can be tough, and I have a feeling that when the average movie-goer sees a film they don't understand, no amount or quality of action, acting, romance or special effects is going to make them like it.

Overall, I loved it though.  I definitely liked it better than Episode I, or Episode VI.  It's not the best Star Wars movie, but it's certainly not the worst.   (Of course, I'll watch the worst Star Wars movie, Episode I IMO, and still enjoy it more than most movies.)  

As long as your expectations aren't unrealistic, (Let's face it, it's going to be tough to top the original trilogy folks!!)  I think most people will enjoy this film, and Star Wars fans will love it.


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## 333 Dave (May 19, 2002)

I think the problem of plot was the exact opposite of Episode I. The Phantom Menace had no plot, Attack of the Clones's plot was overly complex. But overly complex is good when it comes to political manuvering. And it was definatly meant to be more tied in with episode 3 than 1, like ESB was tied in more with RotJ than ANH.


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## Wicht (May 19, 2002)

Lady Dragon said:
			
		

> *Also If Padme didn't die where was she in the final three movies I don't believe she would allow herself to be separated from her son she is a proud noblewoman. *




Oh, I think she dies, I just think she will die between III and IV not in III but I could be wrong, I will admit it.

And as for what she will do, hard times dictate hard choices.


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## EricNoah (May 19, 2002)

*Ep III*

It makes sense to me that Padme dies at some point.  But what is a question mark for me is how -- and who ...  Does Anakin kill her purposely?  Does he kill her by accident?  Does Palpatine arrange it, or do it himself?  Does Obi-wan have something to do with it (maybe just in Anakin's mind)?  Clearly her death will be one of the most important things in the Anakin-to-Vader transformation, the other being whatever event causes the horrific damage to his body.  

I used to think that there might end up being an Obi-wan / Padme / Anakin love triangle but I think now that's unlikely.


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## 333 Dave (May 19, 2002)

"You... you could have stopped it! You were right there when she died! How could you let him kill her like that? HOW COULD YOU?!!"
Yeah, I can definatly see Anakin blaming Obi-Wan (or any Jedi for that matter) for Padme's death. Of course, I think in the end Anakin's anger will be directed more at Mace Windu than Obi-Wan, after all, Obi-Wan and Yoda are the last two surviving Jedi in A New Hope...


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## Wicht (May 19, 2002)

But Obi-Wan and Anakin have to have a climactic fight in which Anakin loses...

Vader alludes to this in Episode IV when he declares to Obi-wan that he is the master now.  

So Anakin, IMO, will at the end of III be entirely on the side of darkness, fighting Obi-wan.  Like I said, I personally think that Padme will still be alive.  I also think that the final scenes of III will show Vader donning his armor and Padme, Obi-wan and Yoda going seperate ways.


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## Eryx (May 19, 2002)

*IMO (Long with many quotes) *

Ok, heres my take on it.



> Dahak, in the thread about the birth of Anakin, suggested that the midichlorians knew about the imbalance Palpatine was about to bring in the Force and created Anakin to restore the balance.




The Midichlorians generate the force, in a sense  they are the force. There are hundreds of Jedi (Light side) in the universe and only a handful of Sith. The Light Side has been dominant too long and I think the Midichlorians "create" Anakin to be the force that tips the scales back to create balance.



> Palaptine is a clone...Darth Sidious is manipulating him. Hence why the Council cannot detect the Dark Side when it is 3 feet from them.




As Yoda and Mace discuss, the powers of the Light side are weakening, while the Dark side grows stronger in balance.
Palpatine isn't a clone, he just doesn't use his powers openly and anyway, politicans are verging on the Dark side with anger, hate, betrayal...etc. I don't think it's too big a leap of faith to assume that they can't sense any more to the senator than what he is masquerading as.



> Plus, he was probably still somewhat in shock since he just had his hand cut off.




Thats one thing I really do find clever with EP1 & 2, just how Anakin and Luke follow a similar destiny.

Anakin is instrumental in destroying the Federation control ship, and Luke does the same with the Death Star.
Anakin loses his mother, and Luke loses the only family he has ever known.
Both lose their hand (twice now in Anakin's case), their right hand, and have it replaced. The prophecy is already at work.



> But where did the army get a hold of/build tons of victory class star destroyers(were they victory class SDs?)/troop transports/laser batteries?




I imagine that even in peace time, the Republic has a small war machine, just in case. I also imagine that the scene at the end of the film with the transport ships (They seem a little small for Star Destroyers) is several months after the battle on Genosia.



> After Obi-Wan informs Yoda and Master Windu that a clone army is being created, Yoda shakes his head and makes the "blind, we are" comment since they didn't know of the creation of said army.




I think this is referring to the Jedi being too complacent. In EP1, they don't believe that the Sith could have returned. Yoda is only just realising that times have changed.



> Actually, to me the most striking scene(s) in the whole movie did not involve fights or special effects but involved the relationship between the two Fetts. In the arena when the boy is holding his fathers head to his own I must confess I felt myself moved and the two actors involved in my mind did a superb job of showing the closeness between father and son.




Indeed. I found Boba very creepy and malign. Good acting for a child I think.
Although when he picks his father's helmet up I did keep expecting a head to fall out. 



> As for the rest of episode 3 Obi-wan and Yoda will flee with the infants the other Jedi will die and Palpatine will openly admit he is the lord of the sith.




My thoughts:  Obi-Wan will realise that the twins are force sensitive, even powerful with the force. Due to Anakin's increasing arrogance and anger, Obi-Wan and Padme agree to hide the children. Anakin will kill Padme for this, much like he kills the Sand People for (in his eyes) killing his mother. This will be his final fall to the Dark side.
I don't think you will see Palpatine/Sidious claim the throne in EP3, that will happen off scene.



> the other being whatever event causes the horrific damage to his body.




In semi-official Star Wars canon, Anakin is almost killed and forced to need his life-support/armour as Vader because he and Obi-Wan have a fight atop a volcano (or similar) and Anakin is knocked into the lava.

Phew.... that took a while to go through.


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## Some guy from Ohio (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Ep III*



			
				EricNoah said:
			
		

> *It makes sense to me that Padme dies at some point.  But what is a question mark for me is how -- and who ...  Does Anakin kill her purposely?  Does he kill her by accident?  Does Palpatine arrange it, or do it himself?  Does Obi-wan have something to do with it (maybe just in Anakin's mind)?  Clearly her death will be one of the most important things in the Anakin-to-Vader transformation, the other being whatever event causes the horrific damage to his body.
> 
> I used to think that there might end up being an Obi-wan / Padme / Anakin love triangle but I think now that's unlikely. *




Leia states in EP VI that she remembers her mother as being "very sad".  The twins would have to be at least old enough to form memories so I don't believe we will see Padme die.  The children would also have to spirited away from Anakin before they are born or he would have known about the twins, information Vader did not realize until the battle with Luke in the Emporer's throneroom.  A simple solution would be to have her on Alderan when it was destroyed.


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## Ristamar (May 19, 2002)

> I think this is referring to the Jedi being too complacent. In EP1, they don't believe that the Sith could have returned. Yoda is only just realising that times have changed.



I had considered that, but Windu's blunt follow up statement concerning the Jedi's waning ability to use the Force seemed to imply more than mere complacency, IMO.  Yoda and Master Windu both knew the Sith had already returned in one form or another due to the events that transpired 10 years ago in Episode I.


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## Droogie (May 19, 2002)

A comment:

If Lucas plans on tweaking ep IV any further, I would hope he would redo the saber battle between Obi-Wan and Darth. I just caught ep IV recently on TV, and the fight was plain laughable.


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## Ristamar (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Ep III*



			
				Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> *A simple solution would be to have her on Alderan when it was destroyed. *




Wouldn't work.  According to what Leia told Luke in _Jedi_, her (their) mother died when she was very young.


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## Corinth (May 19, 2002)

Wicht said:
			
		

> *You were seduced by a senator who bore your children and then ran away when you grew violent and anti-social!!!*



Close.  I was seduced by a well-connected rich debutante who took me to bed, ran away and almost bore my children against my will.  As a result of this I became violent and anti-social.


> *That is some life you have led.  You should publish it.*



All in due time.  I'm working on something for _Dragon_ right now.


> *Sorry... could not resist.  Do you think however you might be projecting just a tad?  *



No offense taken, and I might be projecting just a tad.


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## Holy Bovine (May 19, 2002)

Creeping Death said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And Yoda and the rest of the Jedi council wasn't wise enough to figure this out?  Hmm.... Bring balance to the force?  Thousands of good Jedi and two evil Jedi.... forget balance, I'd have killed the boy right then and there, then smacked Quigon for bringing him in.
> 
> I did enjoy episode II very much.  I liked they way Anakin was portrayed.  The scenes of him finding his mother all they way til he confesses to Padme are my favorite so far. *




Perhaps that is why Yoda and the Jedi Council refused to train Anakin - they realized the danger he represented to their power.  It was Quijonn and later Obi Wan that screwed up by training Anakin.  The light sided Jedi were bound by their own rules not to just slay Anakin when he was found - that would hardly be in keeping with their own teachings.

This could also explain why Anakin is still only a Padwan at the beginning of Ep 2.  The Jedi Order were trying to keep him down and prevent him from realizing his full potential.

Further maybe this is why Yoda trains Luke in ESB, even though Luke is many years older than Anakin.  Yoda realized the terrible mistake he and the Jedi Council made and trains Luke to destroy Vader/Anakin.

Course I could just me talking out of my ***.


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## beta-ray (May 19, 2002)

Wicht said:


> As for Vader's name change, each Sith Lord adopts a new name - haven't you noticed... Dooku becomes Tyranous, Palpatine becomes Sidious, Anakin becomes Vader. Maul, well, I don't know what his name was.




It was "Poopsie"

[edit: oops, spelled "Wicht" wrong]


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## Mouseferatu (May 19, 2002)

Just for the record...

When Lucas talks about bringing "balance" back to the Force, he doesn't mean an equal amount of light and dark, good and evil.  He means bringing back the light side of the Force when the dark has almost conquered.  In other words, he's talking about Vader's killing of the Emperor at the end of RotJ.

I don't recall where he said this, but either he, or one of the other big-wigs in the Star Wars universe, said it in so many words.


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## Mouseferatu (May 19, 2002)

Oh, and Lucas claims he created the name "Darth Vader" because it sounded a bit like "Dark Father."  The notion of all Sith lords being Darth Whatsis came later.


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## hong (May 19, 2002)

beta-ray said:
			
		

> *
> It was "Poopsie"
> 
> [edit: oops, spelled "Wicht" wrong] *




That's not a very nice thing to say about Wicht.


Hong "Kontext-Away strikes... again!" Ooi


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## Dr Midnight (May 19, 2002)

Droogie said:
			
		

> *A comment:
> 
> If Lucas plans on tweaking ep IV any further, I would hope he would redo the saber battle between Obi-Wan and Darth. I just caught ep IV recently on TV, and the fight was plain laughable. *




I agree completely. The action scenes, most especially the saber battles, are outdated dinosaurs. I know a legion of fans would stomp and scream and protest, but I'd like to see a new special edition trilogy released wherein we have Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master, versus Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith- as it would be produced NOW. It would be thrilling and unbelievable. Every bit as much fun to watch as Yoda vs. Dooku, or Darth Maul vs. Pada-Wan Kenobi. 

Doesn't Obi-Wan fight with his hood up in EpIV? It wouldn't be hard to cut in some new shots of swordsmen fighting without visible facial features.


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## Lady Dragon (May 19, 2002)

Anakin obviously knew he was a father after all he is the one who told Luke who he was he may not of realized that leia was his daughter but that doesn't mean he didn't know he had fathered a daughter.

One thought I had about the prophecy that Anakin would even out the force is that prehaps that act was merely to father Luke and Leia after all without him they wouldn't have existed.

I just wish that Lucas would do a 7th movie with the now older stars of 4-6 as sort of a wrap up of all that came before.But I suppose we all wish that.


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## Fiery James (May 19, 2002)

What if Anakin/Vader didn't know that Padme was pregnant?  What if _that's_ the reason that they were able to hide Luke all these years?  Vader certainly didn't know that he had a daughter.... 

"A sister...?  Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me."

Since they were twins, it sort of figures that he didn't know about either of them.

I predict that Anakin will become Vader while Padme's very much alive - but she'll leave him and they'll have no contact for some time (at least 9 months, say!)  

But, she will be killed in Episode III - story-wise, that's just how it's got to go.

I also remember Lucas talking about the prequel-trilogy and the difficulty he had in devising the story so that the "I'm your father" bit in Empire would remain a powerful surprise to a new generation who would be able to watch Episodes I to VI in order for the first time.  If he's setting that bit up to still be a shocker, then maybe they don't EVER show Padme pregnant - or delivering twins.  Or, maybe the don't show Anakin becoming Vader - somehow they "convince" us that Anakin and Vader are not one in the same.

I don't know how he'll pull it off, but unless he throws some clever plot twist in Episode III, there will be a lot of first-time viewers in 3 years watching Star Wars for the first time shouting "Dude, Vader is your father!!" during the first attack on the Death Star.

- FJ


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## Mouseferatu (May 19, 2002)

According to the books/comics--which, as we all know, are only true until and unless the movies contradict them--Vader did _not_ know about Luke at first.  When he almost killed Luke at the first Death Star battle, you'll hear him say "The Force is strong with this one."  That was his first clue.  According to some relatively recent comics, between ANH and ESB, he went out and investigated and learned the name of the pilot was Luke Skywalker.  Only then did he realize who he was dealing with.


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## Fiery James (May 19, 2002)

Lady Dragon said:
			
		

> *Anakin obviously knew he was a father after all he is the one who told Luke who he was he may not of realized that leia was his daughter but that doesn't mean he didn't know he had fathered a daughter.
> 
> *




But, what if he didn't know?

What if, after Episode IV, Vader starts to find out about that pilot who was powerful in the Force and destroyed the Death Star.  He's from some desert planet in the outer rim... raised by Owen somebody...  last name is Skywalker...  and encountered just after Obi-Wan makes the ultimate sacrifice with his "I shall become more powerful..." bit.

What if Vader has one of those "twenty years ago" flashbacks to an intimate moment with Padme?  Slapping himself on the helmet - "I'm his dad!"


For the theorists, it's also interesting that the Emperor refers to Luke as the Son of Skywalker when talking to Vader, rather than "your son".  Could Lucas be readying the clone angle?

I don't really think so - I don't think Lucas actually has a master plan that keeps the continuity perfect.  I think he's just pulling stuff outta his a$$.  I don't think we'll ever get an explanation about the "Vader created C3PO but forgot about him" thing...


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## Fiery James (May 19, 2002)

mouseferatu said:
			
		

> *According to the books/comics--which, as we all know, are only true until and unless the movies contradict them--Vader did not know about Luke at first.  When he almost killed Luke at the first Death Star battle, you'll hear him say "The Force is strong with this one."  That was his first clue.  According to some relatively recent comics, between ANH and ESB, he went out and investigated and learned the name of the pilot was Luke Skywalker.  Only then did he realize who he was dealing with. *




You're a step ahead of me, brother!


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## Lady Dragon (May 19, 2002)

Yes it is possible that Anakin doesn't know about his children.Perhaps Anakin and Padme are seperated during the pregancy. But I strongly believe that they will be reunited just in time for Padme to get killed thus tipping Anakin over to the dark side.

I would also point outthat Leia is raised to believe she is senator Orgami daughter and the mother she remebers may be her adopted fathers wife and not Padme.


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## Mouseferatu (May 19, 2002)

> I would also point outthat Leia is raised to believe she is senator Orgami daughter and the mother she remebers may be her adopted fathers wife and not Padme.




Actually, no.  Leia knew she was adopted.

From RotJ:

Luke, to Leia: Do you remember your mother?  Your _real_ mother?

Leia: Just images, really.  Feelings.

Note that Leia _didn't_ say, "What do you mean, my 'real' mother?" which would, I think, have been her reaction if she didn't know she was adopted.


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## cbatt (May 19, 2002)

Just going to jump in here...

Saw the movie this afternoon and was pleasantly surprised.  Much better than Episode I.  The acting was not stellar, but I wasn't expecting anything but action adventure.  And while I thought that the action was... not as active as I would've liked, the plot was fantastic.   Lots of stuff to speculate over until the next movie is released.

I was really impressed by how well they maintained the visual continuity with the original trilogy.  Everything seemed to foreshadow what the Star Wars universe would eventually look like in episodes 4 through 6.  The clone trooper armour, the transport ships near the end that looked like small star destroyers, the trade federation ships that looked like embryonic Death Stars.  Really kick ass.

All in all, a decent movie.  I find that I'm actually looking forward to episode 3.


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## Lizard (May 19, 2002)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I agree completely. The action scenes, most especially the saber battles, are outdated dinosaurs. I know a legion of fans would stomp and scream and protest, but I'd like to see a new special edition trilogy released wherein we have Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master, versus Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith- as it would be produced NOW. *




A fight between an old man and a critically injured Sith Lord kept alive by machinery. Which is what we saw in Ep IV.

One thing Lucas has said is that we never saw REAL Jedi in the first three movies. We saw a cyborg (whose force powers were greatly diminished because of the loss of his humanity), a washed up old-man, an ancient shell almost destroyed by the Dark Side, and a barely trained punk kid. (Real Jedi start training as infants; Luke's training was dramatically foreshortened and grossly inferior) We do not see fully-trained, adult, healthy Jedi until TPM.


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## Mistwell (May 19, 2002)

All this speculation about who takes Leia away (is it Amidala? Is it Yoda? Obi-Wan?)...we already know who takes Leia away.  He is in Attack of the Clones.  It's Bail Organa, Leia's adopted father! He is right there talking to Amidala in the movie!

As for who takes Luke away, it seems logical it would be Obi-Wan, since he sets up his own house not too far from Luke, I assume to keep a close eye on him.


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## KnowTheToe (May 19, 2002)

I just wanted to say.  I saw the movie and loved it.  It caught all of the flavor of the first three and had special effects unmatched in any movie.  I know you may say that the guy who played Anakin could not act his way out of a wet sack, but niether could Luke.

I did get nervous in the opening scene.  It was some of the worst delivered lines in the trilogy.  I think this is the fault of Lucas, the first scene is supposed to be formal, you might say sort of military.  If you look at the first three movies, the worst delivery of lines were by Empire starfleet officers.  I don't think Lucas knows how to direct these type dialog scenes.

Anyway besides that the movie was great.  I enjoyed the political schemeing, the pace, the characters and Natalie Portman's body in those revealing outfits.  She even goes braless just like PL in ANH.   And, of corse, the action was awesome.


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## Dr Midnight (May 19, 2002)

Lizard said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A fight between an old man and a critically injured Sith Lord kept alive by machinery. Which is what we saw in Ep IV.
> 
> One thing Lucas has said is that we never saw REAL Jedi in the first three movies. We saw a cyborg (whose force powers were greatly diminished because of the loss of his humanity), a washed up old-man, an ancient shell almost destroyed by the Dark Side, and a barely trained punk kid. (Real Jedi start training as infants; Luke's training was dramatically foreshortened and grossly inferior) We do not see fully-trained, adult, healthy Jedi until TPM. *




I'm not buying that. I think Georgie was just covering his butt on that count because he'd have to explain WHY the fight in IV is so inferior. Sure, Darth Vader's a crippled cyborg in a walking life-support machine, and sure, Obi-Wan's an old man, but both are great warriors- and strong in the force. Tyrannus and Yoda both count as elderly. Yoda's even mildly crippled by age (I don't buy the idea that he's faking it). You saw them throw down. I think Obi-Wan vs. Vader should be a high point of the film- one of the best fight scenes in movies. I'd love to see it redone.


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## Simon Magalis (May 19, 2002)

Fiery James said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have always assumed that the Emperor refers to Anakin Skywalker in the third person to emphasize to Vader that there is NO going back to that life and he may as well think of that life as being led by another person. A similar sentiment is voiced by Obi-Wan in his explanation to Luke of why he misled him about Vader killing Anakin.


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## Cedric (May 19, 2002)

I'm thinking we are going to see a great battle between Obi Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader. 

In the 3rd movie...when Anakin Skywalker turns completely to the dark side and is becoming Darth Vader...I think he and Obi Wan will meet.

And you know what..Obi Wan is going to kick his ass.

How else do you think he winds up in the cyborg suit...more machine then man? I think we'll see Darth Vader...in the suit, by the end of that movie.

I also don't think the suit diminishes any of Darth Vader's force powers...

Cedric


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## Numion (May 19, 2002)

Do you have any opinions as to why Yoda decided to save the two Jedi (Ani and Obi) from underneath the crumbling pillar, instead of finishing Count Dooku? I found that odd, since the Jedi aren't supposed to have attachments. Surely defeating a Evil Mofo is worth the lives of couple of Jedi. 

And as a minor point, why didn't Dooku finish Yoda off when the little bugger stopped to save the two Jedis? 

In general I was pleased with the final fight. Dooku was just so cool when he finished two Jedis in a row... that was neat. And Yodas fight was well done.


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## Psion (May 19, 2002)

Fiery James said:
			
		

> *But, she will be killed in Episode III - story-wise, that's just how it's got to go.*




Not unless the movie pushes into the future enough that Luke & Leia are old enough to remember, as Leia states she has memories of her mother.


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## Eryx (May 19, 2002)

Numion said:
			
		

> *Do you have any opinions as to why Yoda decided to save the two Jedi (Ani and Obi) from underneath the crumbling pillar, instead of finishing Count Dooku? I found that odd, since the Jedi aren't supposed to have attachments. Surely defeating a Evil Mofo is worth the lives of couple of Jedi. *




Thats the difference being on the Light Side and being on the Dark Side.


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## Simon Magalis (May 19, 2002)

Only Leia has these memories... Luke says that he never knew her. My prediction is that Amidala will go to Alderan with Bail Organa taking Leia with her. She will die when Leia is two or three. For some reason, Obi-Wan takes Luke to the Lars at birth, or something else causes Luke to be taken there and Obi-Wan goes to watch. There is the implication that Vader knew about Luke because he gave Obi-Wan the lightsaber to give to him. Haven't heard much about that on the boards, but it may be interesting to see what happens there.


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## Droogie (May 19, 2002)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm not buying that. I think Georgie was just covering his butt on that count because he'd have to explain WHY the fight in IV is so inferior. Sure, Darth Vader's a crippled cyborg in a walking life-support machine, and sure, Obi-Wan's an old man, but both are great warriors- and strong in the force. Tyrannus and Yoda both count as elderly. Yoda's even mildly crippled by age (I don't buy the idea that he's faking it). You saw them throw down. I think Obi-Wan vs. Vader should be a high point of the film- one of the best fight scenes in movies. I'd love to see it redone. *





Agreed. Darth certainly didn't fight like a crippled cyborg in ESB. Its just because the fight choreography in Ep IV was so unrefined.

As you said, Midnight, you couldn't really see the faces of the combatants in Ep IV: Darth had his helmet, and Obi-wan had his hood up the whole time. I think redoing the scene would be relatively easy: easier than the fight between Anakin and Dooku. 

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but during some of the action of that fight, Chris Lee's face and head were actually digitally superimposed over what I assume is a stuntman. If digital effects and good editing can get an 80 year-old-actor to fight like Errol Flynn, I think they can get a dead actor wearing a hood to do the same.


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## Droogie (May 19, 2002)

Cedric said:
			
		

> *I'm thinking we are going to see a great battle between Obi Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader.
> 
> 
> And you know what..Obi Wan is going to kick his ass.
> ...





And that is gonna be hella-cool.


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## Desdichado (May 19, 2002)

How many Jedi are there, anyway, I wonder?  Windu says he will gather up "all the Jedi that remain" and go help Obiwan, and he shows up with, what 30-40 individuals?  What?!?  Can there really be that few Jedi?  And what does he mean by remain?  Have they been dying off since Episode I or something?

I wonder if he meant "all the Jedi that remain on Coruscant at the present time" and the actual numbers of the Jedi are healthier than they appear in this movie.


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## Droogie (May 19, 2002)

Fiery James said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I also remember Lucas talking about the prequel-trilogy and the difficulty he had in devising the story so that the "I'm your father" bit in Empire would remain a powerful surprise to a new generation who would be able to watch Episodes I to VI in order for the first time.  If he's setting that bit up to still be a shocker, then maybe they don't EVER show Padme pregnant - or delivering twins.  Or, maybe the don't show Anakin becoming Vader - somehow they "convince" us that Anakin and Vader are not one in the same.
> 
> ...




I don't think he'll be able to pull it off. No matter how you slice it, almost EVERYONE with any knowledge of American pop culture know that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader.

Besides--there's the dialog in Ep IV:
"A young Jedi named Darth Vader.....who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil..."
Anyone who sees EP 1-3 will know who Ben is talking about, since we don't see him train anyone else in the films.

"When I left you, I was but a learner...now I am the master."
same as above.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (May 19, 2002)

Hey! Why people are so impressed by Yoda, while that is Palpatine aka Darth Sidious, The Sith Supreme that posess the ultimate power- ability to manipulate the entire galaxy without anybody knowing about it! Man, I wish I had even 1% of his abilities in real life! Even this little green midget was nothing more than a pawn of Palpy, what about these lines: "Dark Side Clouds Everything" and "Our ability to use The Force has diminished", so, Mr Yoda, maybe Darkside IS stronger after all!

I really can`t wait to the moment when Palpatine reveals himself to Yoda, so he can understand the extent of his failure, that brought the end to The Jedi Order, he had a Sith Lord just under his nose and failed to reconginise him, to see through his brilliant Cloak Of Deception!

Go Palpy, Go, you are my idol, All Hail The Emperor, The Sith Supreme, Greatest of Villains, Lord Of Darkness, Evil Incarnated, The Ultimate Master of The Darkside!


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## Mouseferatu (May 19, 2002)

Simon Magalis said:
			
		

> *There is the implication that Vader knew about Luke because he gave Obi-Wan the lightsaber to give to him. *




I don't think he did.  I think that was another of Obi-wan's "partial truths."  I think he had the lightsaber, he wanted Luke to have it to inspire Luke to become the Jedi they knew he could be.

Sure, it's possible Anakin knew Amidala was pregnant, and he might have asked this as a favor of Obi-wan before he turned completely evil.  But we've seen that Obi is willing to bend the truth, so I don't think we can put too much faith in the "Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" line.


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## Rowenstin (May 19, 2002)

Anakin can´t be Vader. Vader´s a lot taller than Anakin.

Unless almost all of his body is cyber replaced, of course.


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## el-remmen (May 19, 2002)

My favorite light saber fight scene is STILL from EMPIRE. . . Sorry, but while Darth Maul was cool and Yoda was AMAZING. . . the drama and pathos of the Empire fight makes it far and above superior to all others. 

As for changing the Ep IV fight - well, um - that one is my second favorite - and I love it just th way it is -  I imagine Obi-Wan and Vader constantly trying to use the force on each other - but matching it other constantly - but Obi-Wan is obviously struggling more.  

That fight is fine and dramatic.  If it were changed it would break my heart.

In fact in AOTC - I was happy that the fighting style seemed to be an amalgam of the stuff from the first triliogy and the wildness of TPM.


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## Furn_Darkside (May 20, 2002)

Gargoyle said:
			
		

> One problem that non-fans  (or perhaps casual fans) may have with it is that the plot is complex.  To really understand what's going on can be tough, and I have a feeling that when the average movie-goer sees a film they don't understand, no amount or quality of action, acting, romance or special effects is going to make them like it.




uhh- yup. Us non-fans, we ain't too bright an all. Must be our po' learnin.

I mean, when I sat down in the thee-ae-ter this morn, I almost blew a gasket when the credits started to roll.. then one of you slick city-types told me that just how it starts. well.. gowwlee. I guess I should have learned my letters.

Err.. ok.. got that out of my system.

I personally did not like the movie, but I have yet to like any of the Star War movies.     And I understood the plot fine, thank you.

I thought the near-superhero stuff in the beginning was over the top: dropping hundred(s) of feat admist traffic and somehow surviving the impact on a high speed vehicle.

I thought the old and slow moving yoda suddenly fighting like a wild monkee was silly. 

I think the close connection between all the characters in these two movies- that will be close in the next three is contradictory to say the least (but that is going on in another thread).

The raised importance of the Fett's is a mistake, imo. Why him? (Ok, I know why- fanboys) Why not a jedi with the mitochondria stuff? Why not someone from a family who doesn't suffer embarresing deaths? (One beheaded after doing little impressive.. and the other eaten by an ant-lion.)

While I am on the subject of the Fett's- what was with the stupidity of Jango killing his own assassin before she spoke his name? If he is in the habit of watching his own assassins, then why did he not kill the senator after the explosion in the beginning? 

What was with Padme's reaction to Annie's admission to slaughtering children? Err.. umm.. *blank stare*

I disliked how there is this big link between all the main jedi characters.

Yoda- Dooku- QuiGon- ObiWon- Annie (the sun will come out.. tomorrow).

There were plenty of other jedi's, lucas. Use em, darn it. Some looked darn cool. 


Ok, what was cool:
The fights- the best part of Star Wars has always been the combats.  The massive combat in the end with all the Jedi is great. (Though, a bit contradictory to the early super hero nonsense- the people of Jar Jar were able to beat similar robots .. but the Jedi get slaughtered by them.) 

I like the look of many of the jedi. One was the same race as the dancing slave girl of Jabba. heh.

My favorite scene was where Count Dooku (ugh, does Lucas play d&d or just get his names from d&d players?) baits the captured ObiWon into revealing how much the Jedi Council knows about the Sith.. by outright telling him the truth.

I liked the look of the alien cloners- very elegant.

oh well. The geek in me was pleased for all the eye-candy. However, it was just another Star Wars movie in the end.

FD


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## Davelozzi (May 20, 2002)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *we already know who takes Leia away.  He is in Attack of the Clones.  It's Bail Organa, Leia's adopted father! He is right there talking to Amidala in the movie!*




Which one was Bail?  I missed it somehow.


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## Mistwell (May 20, 2002)

Davelozzi said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Which one was Bail?  I missed it somehow. *




I missed it at first too.  It's the character played by Jimmy Smits, formerly of the TV shows LA Law and NYPD Blue.  See http://www.starwars.com/bio/jimmysmits.html .

The whole story, and pictures from the movie of Bail Organa, are here: 

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/bailorgana/index.html

[Note, also from the starwars.com site: Bail Antilles is also an Alderaanian politician. When Chancellor Valorum was ousted from office by a vote of no confidence, three nominees lined up to take his place: Ainlee Teem from Malastare, Palpatine from Naboo, and Bail Antilles from Alderaan. Although the scene was ultimately left out of the finished film, the script to Episode I shows that these two men named Bail were conceived of as separate characters. Both are mentioned. Bail Organa seconds the vote of no confidence; Bail Antilles is nominated to succeed Valorum.  Also note that "Antilles" is sort of the Star Wars equivalent of "Jones," and "Smith." There have been numerous characters throughout the films, books, and expanded universe material named Antilles, but almost none of them are directly related. For instance, Corellian hotshot starfighter pilot Wedge Antilles is not related to Bail Antilles. Nor is he related to C-3PO and R2-D2's former master, Captain Antilles, the Rebel officer whom Vader chokes to death in the opening moments of A New Hope.]


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## Atticus_of_Amber (May 20, 2002)

*Theory for SW-III.*

Everybody expect the third film to end with Anakin strapping on the balck armour and helmet and becoming Darth Vader. I’ve heard a rumour to the contrary which would be So cool if it were true.

SW-III opens with the Jedi being very afraid. The Clone Wars have dangerously whittled their numbers and now there is a mysterious Sith Lord, wearing dark armour and a fearsome helmet (but no breathing sounds), calling himself “Darth Vader”, who, with the help of an armoured bounty hunter called Bobba Fett, is assassinating Jedi. Obi-wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker are assigned to investigate. Anakin has graduated to full Jedi Knight status and has been assigned as Palpatine’s personal bodyguard and liaison to the Jedi counsel. But Palaptine reluctantly releases him to join his old master to root out this evil “Darth Vader” person. The audience suddenly realises that Anakin has *already* turned and is leading a double life…


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## Corinth (May 20, 2002)

Yup, that would rock.


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## Some guy from Ohio (May 20, 2002)

*Re: Theory for SW-III.*



			
				Atticus_of_Amber said:
			
		

> *SW-III opens with the Jedi being very afraid. The Clone Wars have dangerously whittled their numbers and now there is a mysterious Sith Lord, wearing dark armour and a fearsome helmet (but no breathing sounds), calling himself “Darth Vader”, who, with the help of an armoured bounty hunter called Bobba Fett, is assassinating Jedi. Obi-wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker are assigned to investigate. Anakin has graduated to full Jedi Knight status and has been assigned as Palpatine’s personal bodyguard and liaison to the Jedi counsel. But Palaptine reluctantly releases him to join his old master to root out this evil “Darth Vader” person. The audience suddenly realises that Anakin has *already* turned and is leading a double life… *




    A few problems with this plot.  There are already two sith with Palpatine/Dooku and it is established that they only work in a single pair.

     Jango Fett would be well known after the battle of Geonosha, Obi-wan reported him to the jedi council, so it would not be difficult to figure out who Boba Fett is providing that about ten years have passed since AotC or else his father's armor would have to seriously downsized to fit a ten year old.  (I suppose none of this proves to be a problem, just a bit "plot clunky").

    Thus far, Anakin has proven to be a little less than subtle in his actions and it would be a great stretch to think that he could lead this much of a double life.  The character also still believes that he is doing good and he has no reason (yet!) to begin exterminating jedi.  One would think that this would have to be shown on screen and not already happened between movies.


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## Droogie (May 20, 2002)

Weeeeellll, I saw it a second time. 

And I must say, I liked it better.

I said that the acting, writing, and directing were abyssmal in the last thread. I guess I was being a bit harsh. It ain't THAT bad.

Even the romantic interludes were tolerable. Or maybe they slipped something into my popcorn. 

Really, if a movie is decent enough to make me want to see it again, then it will most likely wind up in my DVD collection.


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## Renshai (May 20, 2002)

Remember that not even Obi-Wan knew about Leia. IN Empire Strikes Back he makes the statement "That boy is our only hope". Yoda replies, "No. There is another."

We find out in Return of the Jedi that it is Leia. I think it is safe to say that Anakin/Vader did not know about his children, or he was keeping it secret from Palpatine (that last sliver of goodness in him perhaps?).

So Yoda and Bail Organna hide Leia and don't tell Obi-Wan about her, while Yoda sends Luke with Obi-Wan... makes sense to me.

Ren


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## Lady Dragon (May 20, 2002)

I still think Padme Amidala is going to get killed in episode 3 and that will trigger Anakin's final transition to Vader.

However it is possible that this event takes place after the children have been hidden or at least after Leia has been hidden with the Organa family.

I personally beleive that Anakin/ Vader knew about Luke all along
but allowed him to be hidden from the Emporer Palpatine. Vadar knows what will happen to Luke if the emporer get to him and I think like any father he doesn't want that for his son.After all Vader coveted the emporers throne for himself so he wasn't completely loyal so he may have hidden this from him.

As for the Light Saber gift that Obi-wan gives to Luke it may actually have belonged to Anakin at one time.One thing I find interesting is that if they were trying that hard to hide Luke from Vader why would they give him his own name and let him be raised by Anakin's stepbrother I would think he would be very easy to find.

To change to topic a bit.I found it interesting that Anakin favored dressing in the long black capes even before he becomes Vader.


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## Ristamar (May 20, 2002)

Renshai said:
			
		

> *Remember that not even Obi-Wan knew about Leia. IN Empire Strikes Back he makes the statement "That boy is our only hope". Yoda replies, "No. There is another."*




Hmmm.  Perhaps, though I had interpreted it as Obi-Wan not really considering Leia as a possibility since so much had already been invested in Luke (and the fact that Luke showed such incredible potential).  It seemed to be more of a comment along the lines of 'Man, I hope Luke doesn't blow this, or we're really screwed,' not a statement regarding the last potential Jedi.  There must certainly be others in the galaxy with the potential to use the Force, with proper training, even beyond Leia.

Anyway, I just got back from seeing _Clones_ again (3rd viewing), but this time in a digital projection theater.  If you're a Star Wars fan, or simply haven't seen the movie yet, I highly encourage you to find such a theater (but plan on seeing it), even if you have to drive an hour or two.  The crispness and clarity of the picture is phenomenal.  The unwashed beauty of the vistas and intricate details in the CGI/models that shine through are immediately noticable, making an already gorgeous movie look even better.  It reminded me of the first time I put a REAL graphics card in my computer, played some of the games I had, and thought to myself, 'Wow, I didn't realize it could look this good!'  I truly hope Lucas' push for digital theaters pays off.


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## Methinkus (May 20, 2002)

A friend of mine said something funny the other day, that the only way to get another good star wars film out of Lucas would be to take his budget away and force the man to be creative again 

Kidding aside though, I have seen it twice and I enjoyed it the first time, but loved it the second time.  Only a few things bothered me, which of course I am about to go into detail about but seeing Yoda throw down more than made up for all of it. The great warrior Yoda, yes indeed.

So anyway, here’s what bothered me; Hayden C – the guy who played Anakin – whom I had only seen in Life as a House before his appearance in Star Wars, but the thing is I watch him play Anakin and I feel like I’m watching the same character from Life as a House in a jedi suit.  A whiney, unlikable, arrogant, self destructive little punk who has issues with his father figure.  I thought the young Darth Vader should have been more confident and less whiney so we could take him more seriously rather than just say “oh look, Anakin is just another awkward teen”, but that’s just IMHO.  

On the other hand I thought Hayden did a great job in the “love scenes” where Portman seemed to be trying to take herself too seriously and held back a lot – it felt to me like she really didn’t care for Anakin at all, but then it looked like they got married(?) at the end so I could be wrong.

The other problem I had with this movie was that it could easily have been episode 1.  But then Episode 1 wouldn’t have happened and I wouldn’t have seen the greatness that was Darth Maul, who mauled people, or at least should have mauled people.

Overall I must say that I enjoyed this film immensely and will probably see it again fairly soon.


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## Aaron L (May 20, 2002)

I still find it interesting that the the two sides are being balanced through the acts of two pawns of the Force, Anakin Skywalker and Darth Sidious.  I can only assume that the Jedi thought that the "balancing of the Force" that Anakin was supposed to bring was something other than what it actually ended up being.


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## King_Stannis (May 20, 2002)

I found it a nice touch that they made Dooku Qui Gonn Jinn’s master. Both ended up showing flawed judgment. Dooku thought he could use both the light and the dark side to save the republic, but ended up being twisted by the dark side. Qui Gonn was blinded into thinking that Anakin could bring balance to the force, without heeding the advice of the council. I don’t think he ever realized what “balance” could mean. 

It’s easy to see where Qui Gonn may have learned his poor judgment from, now that we know Dooku was his master.


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## MuleAvatar (May 20, 2002)

All I can say is that it was a great movie, and just to state a few things

-- from the book, Mace said there were about 2000 Jedi knights but only 200 were available to go to Geonosys for the battle.  The rest were busy trying to keep peace throughout the galaxy.

--  Also from the book, Yoda also heard the voice of Qui-Gon while meditating and Anakin was killing the Tusken Raiders.  This is something Yoda found very peculiar and something that could not be.  I think this is where the Jedi find out that they can continue to teach from the dead, for example when Obi-Wan said if you strike me down I will become stronger than you could every imagine.

--  I liked the little touch about arrogance in the order even in the older members and then they show the librarian's arrogance.

--  Did anyone else notice that Obi-Wan told the droid to send the message to the 'old-man's room' while on the cloner's world.

--  Another Antilles from the movie is Wedge  from ESB and ANH.

Nice to be back

TG


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## Davelozzi (May 20, 2002)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *I missed it at first too.  It's the character played by Jimmy Smits, formerly of the TV shows LA Law and NYPD Blue.  See http://www.starwars.com/bio/jimmysmits.html .
> 
> The whole story, and pictures from the movie of Bail Organa, are here:
> 
> ...




Thanks for the answers an the addtional info!


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## Ristamar (May 20, 2002)

> *Did anyone else notice that Obi-Wan told the droid to send the message to the 'old-man's room' while on the cloner's world.*




Yeah, I thought it was kind of amusing, though some of my friends didn't pick up on the "care of the old folks home" line until their second viewing.


> *Another Antilles from the movie is Wedge from ESB and ANH.*




Wedge was actually in all 3 movies of the original trilogy.  He's also Ewan McGregor's uncle.


> *I still find it interesting that the the two sides are being balanced through the acts of two pawns of the Force, Anakin Skywalker and Darth Sidious. I can only assume that the Jedi thought that the "balancing of the Force" that Anakin was supposed to bring was something other than what it actually ended up being.*




I believe their view does eventually come to fruition, but not quite the way they had expected.  

It seems what the Jedi refer to as balance in the Force is similar to having a balanced, healthy body.  When your body is 'in balance' you're not somewhat well but also kinda sick (whether it be a physical or mental illness), but instead, you're very healthy.   So when they refer to a need to bring balance to the Force, they believe that Anakin will purge the growing presence of the Dark Side (akin to a growing sickness or spreading virus) that is compromising the Jedi abilities to use the Force to maintain peace and order.

Oddly enough, through this interpretation, Anakin does eventually fulfill the prophecy.  Anakin kills the Dark Lord of the Sith, Emperor Palpatine, in _Return of the Jedi_.  In the process, he becomes critically wounded and returns to the Light, so to speak, eliminating the Sith in one fatal blow.


----------



## Desdichado (May 20, 2002)

_



*MuleAvatar:*
All I can say is that it was a great movie, and just to state a few things 
-- from the book, Mace said there were about 2000 Jedi knights but only 200 were available to go to Geonosys for the battle. The rest were busy trying to keep peace throughout the galaxy. 
[...]
-- Did anyone else notice that Obi-Wan told the droid to send the message to the 'old-man's room' while on the cloner's world. 

Click to expand...


_
It didn't even look like there were 200 that showed up.  Still, if it said that in the book, it's likely there were supposed to have been about that many that actually went: we just didn't get a good shot of how many there were.  Either way, it doesn't like there was much more than 20 after the battle.

And yes, I did notice that, although is that really what he said?!?


----------



## jaldaen (May 20, 2002)

*Palpatine as Anakin's Father?*

I'm starting to get an eriee feeling that Palpatine is Anakin's real father... Now I don't have much to back it up except to say that it would fit and from what I've seen of the Prequels and their mirroring of Ep IV-VI... I think we might have another "I'm your father" scene...

As for reasons:

1) Shmi is pretty reluctant to reveal Anakin's father...
2) Palpatine's interest in Anakin...
3) Darth Tyrannus's facial experession after having to take off Anakin's hand... and the fact that he does not finish him off like he was going to do to Obi-Wan... (he just force pushes him away)
4) It would mirror later events in Episodes VI-VI...

Jaldaen

PS: This is just a gut feeling... and thus the less than concrete reasons...


----------



## 333 Dave (May 20, 2002)

*Re: Palpatine as Anakin's Father?*



			
				jaldaen said:
			
		

> *I'm starting to get an eriee feeling that Palpatine is Anakin's real father... Now I don't have much to back it up except to say that it would fit and from what I've seen of the Prequels and their mirroring of Ep IV-VI... I think we might have another "I'm your father" scene...
> 
> As for reasons:
> 
> ...




There are a few reasons that Dooku could have stayed his hand...
1) Express orders from Palpatine (for reason's other than fatherhood)
2) He sensed Yoda coming and wanted Obi and Ani in a place where he could get them both at once as a sort of time buyer...
3) He was just trying like hell to escape before Yoda showed up.
4) He was distracted by Yoda's approaching presence.


----------



## Psion (May 20, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *The raised importance of the Fett's is a mistake, imo.
> *




I agree. I used to think Fett was cool... when I was 12 or so.



> *
> I like the look of many of the jedi. One was the same race as the dancing slave girl of Jabba. heh.
> *




Twi'lek. Yeah, there was a pic of a female twi'lek jedi in the revised core rulebook. She's sort of cool.



> *
> I liked the look of the alien cloners- very elegant.*




It was cool, but they seemed a bit like pop-folklore grays to me.


----------



## Dagger75 (May 21, 2002)

*R2-D2 is a slacker*

Maybe Spoilers 
!
!
!
!
!
!

Did anyone else notice this in the movie.  Obi Wan sent the message from Geonosis to Tatooine. R2 was on the ship to recieve this. The next scene shows Anakin telling Padme he is going to rescue his mother--stuff happens-- He comes back buries his mom and then R2 comes and tells them they have a message from Obi Wan.

 Now did R2 wait a whole day to give the gang the info or was it the way the movie was edited. Cause R2 got the message it was light out, Anakin did his thing, it was night, he came back buried his mom and it day again, so did R2 wait the whole day?


----------



## Ragnar Rocker (May 21, 2002)

Yeah the message was recorded. R2 becomes the voice mail.


----------



## Corinth (May 21, 2002)

It was a nice parallel scene, what with C3PO uttering the same lines about messages from Obi-Wan that he does to Luke in Ep.4.


----------



## Simon Magalis (May 21, 2002)

> *
> 
> 
> 
> Oddly enough, through this interpretation, Anakin does eventually fulfill the prophecy.  Anakin kills the Dark Lord of the Sith, Emperor Palpatine, in Return of the Jedi.  In the process, he becomes critically wounded and returns to the Light, so to speak, eliminating the Sith in one fatal blow. *




Actually, Vader IS the Dark Lord of the Sith. The only time that title was ever mentioned before Ep. 1 was in reference to Vader. It was even on his toy label on the old Kenner cardstock.


----------



## Droogie (May 21, 2002)

I dunno, but I thought Dooku's facial expression was simple weariness, nothing more. Didn't really read anything into it. 

Guess I'll have to see it...AGAIN!


----------



## Ulrick (May 21, 2002)

I think Attack of the Clones is vastly superior to The Phantom Menace.  However, it still doesn't capture the spirit of the original movies.

One thing that I got a little tired of is all the CGI backgrounds.  I mean, yes, all the backgrounds were beautiful and wonderous, but it got old after awhile.  Just too much of a good thing, I guess.

And yes, the love story was a little lame.

The movie started with a bang (literally) and had my attention all the way through.  The battle scenes were spectacular and the plot was good.

Thumbs up.

...but I want Jar Jar dead.  I think it would be funny if the bounty hunters went after him instead.  heh heh

Ulrick


----------



## Mouseferatu (May 21, 2002)

Just for the record, we just went to see it again.

It's even better the second time.


----------



## Creamsteak (May 21, 2002)

I'll jump in with something easier to figure out...

What class star destroyer were produced before the Victory and Imperial were designed? I know there are at least 5 different class star destroyers... 

The smallest (shown in episode 2)
The Victory
The Imperial
The Star Destroyer in episode 6 (what class?)
and the Star Destroyer designed after the 2nd death star is destroyed... I know there was one... and it had at least one Ship-to-Ship super laser (but not planet destroying).

Also where were the clone fighter ships? Maybe those come after episode 6... but there are supposed to be some kind of small spheroid ships that mine minerals in mass and produce crappy tie fighters with squared "wings" out of raw materials...

And the Death Star prototype should have been in production by now... if the designs for the complete death star are done. The prototype was a shell of a ship with a weak super laser that could barely melt through a planets crust, but it was supposed to be fought over at some point... and then lost for like 100 years until two red neck space pirates got ahold of it and tried to attack some backwater planet...

Maybe I am getting ahead of myself, or maybe my information is wrong...


----------



## Joker (May 21, 2002)

Never gonna see that again.  The visual effects were fantastic but take away the CGI and what do u have?

A B-movie.

Well actually if u take away the CGI u have a bunch of green screens.  Oh well.

Tata.


----------



## CDX (May 21, 2002)

You sir, are... I dunno
I admit, the first half is slow, but I've seen the movie 3 times now, and every single time, the tusken slaughter/Anakin snapping scene gives me a chill. There aren't many movies that have ever done that for me.


----------



## Joker (May 21, 2002)

The thing I do want to see again is the Yoda fight scene.  I don't know if it was meant to be serious but when he started to get Crouching Jedi, Hidden Dark Side on Dooka's arse I just couldn't stop laughing.  Neither could the rest of the theater.

Oh well, I'm not much of a Star Wars fan anyway.

Tata.


----------



## Zarrock God of Evil (May 21, 2002)

creamsteak said:
			
		

> *I'll jump in with something easier to figure out...
> 
> What class star destroyer were produced before the Victory and Imperial were designed? I know there are at least 5 different class star destroyers...
> 
> ...




The Star Destroyer in Episode V and VI - the Executor - is a Super Star Destroyer. Only four of these massive warships were ever build and supposedly only one survived the destruction of the Empire. According to older SW material, the Victory Class Star Destroyer was the first ship to use the basic Star Destroyer design.
Also, the Imperial Interdictor Cruiser has the look of a Star Destroyer even though it's purpose is forming hyper-space blockades...

-Zarrock


----------



## Ristamar (May 21, 2002)

Simon Magalis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, Vader IS the Dark Lord of the Sith. The only time that title was ever mentioned before Ep. 1 was in reference to Vader. It was even on his toy label on the old Kenner cardstock. *




Yes, I know that, but in Episode II, Dooku refers to Sidious as the Dark Lord of the Sith.  And AFAIK, they never call Vader the Dark Lord of the Sith in Episode IV - VI (even though I do agree that Vader was given such a title before, just not in the movies themselves).


----------



## Upper_Krust (May 21, 2002)

Hi there! 



			
				creamsteak said:
			
		

> *I'll jump in with something easier to figure out...
> 
> What class star destroyer were produced before the Victory and Imperial were designed? I know there are at least 5 different class star destroyers...
> 
> ...




This might help...

http://frankg.dgne.com/swsv/kdy/index.html


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

What a surprise. I go on here to have a good talk about Star Wars and I see a vast majority of posts are by the fru fru coffee drinking [word edited out] who have to show the rest of us how much better they are by trashing the movie.

How pathetic.

------------------

_Mod's Note: I beleive the rules on these boards are very clear.  No profanity even if you "cleverly" (to use that word loosely) use an alternate spelling.  Please refrain from that_


----------



## Mark (May 21, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *What a surprise. I go on here to have a good talk about Star Wars and I see a vast majority of posts are by the fru fru coffee drinking a$$holes who have to show the rest of us how much better they are by trashing the movie.
> 
> How pathetic. *




Do you have something against coffee?!?!?


----------



## trentonjoe (May 21, 2002)

Forgive my SW ignorance but could someone explain who Darth Sidious and the Tyranisourus guy are/were?


----------



## Desdichado (May 21, 2002)

_



*creamsteak:*
I'll jump in with something easier to figure out... 

What class star destroyer were produced before the Victory and Imperial were designed? I know there are at least 5 different class star destroyers... 

The smallest (shown in episode 2) 
The Victory 
The Imperial 
The Star Destroyer in episode 6 (what class?) 
and the Star Destroyer designed after the 2nd death star is destroyed... I know there was one... and it had at least one Ship-to-Ship super laser (but not planet destroying). 

Click to expand...


_
Your "problem" is that you are elevating the status of comics and other "non-canonical" source material.  According to the movies, there were two types of star destroyers: star destroyers and super star destroyers.  That's it.
_




Also where were the clone fighter ships? Maybe those come after episode 6... but there are supposed to be some kind of small spheroid ships that mine minerals in mass and produce crappy tie fighters with squared "wings" out of raw materials... 


Click to expand...


_
No, there's not "supposed to be" any clone fighters at all.  _Attack of the Clones_ didn't feature any clone fighters because there was no space battle in the movie, but I don't know what you're talking about with the origin of TIE fighters.
_




And the Death Star prototype should have been in production by now... if the designs for the complete death star are done. The prototype was a shell of a ship with a weak super laser that could barely melt through a planets crust, but it was supposed to be fought over at some point... and then lost for like 100 years until two red neck space pirates got ahold of it and tried to attack some backwater planet... 


Click to expand...


_
There's another one that I don't know what you're talking about.  There's no "supposed to" story here.  Presumably this comes from some novel or comic that I'm not familiar with.  If you think that George Lucas is beholden to what's in those publications (or that he even reads them at all) I think you're very much mistaken.  George Lucas does what he wants with the movies.  He allows authors to do what they want with the books and comics to a certain extent.  Sure, a division of Lucasfilm manages "continuity" amongst the books, but I doubt George himself is much involved with that.
_



Maybe I am getting ahead of myself, or maybe my information is wrong...

Click to expand...


_
Probably.  Where did you get your information?


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

I wondered about that too. My guess is that 99% of the Jedi are roaming the galaxy going this or that and Mace basically gathered up the council and whatever Jedi happened to be at the Jedi Temple. So you had a group of 40 or so Jedi who were a mix of the very best (the council) and probably bunches who were no better trained than Anakin (padawans who dont travel alone).

That would explain how some of them were taken down so easily by rather small volleys of droid fire.




			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> *How many Jedi are there, anyway, I wonder?  Windu says he will gather up "all the Jedi that remain" and go help Obiwan, and he shows up with, what 30-40 individuals?  What?!?  Can there really be that few Jedi?  And what does he mean by remain?  Have they been dying off since Episode I or something?
> 
> I wonder if he meant "all the Jedi that remain on Coruscant at the present time" and the actual numbers of the Jedi are healthier than they appear in this movie. *


----------



## el-remmen (May 21, 2002)

Let's keep these discussions friendly please - no need for name calling or bad feelings. . .   We don't want to have to go down to three Star Wars threads from four because one got closed.

Thanks.


----------



## trentonjoe (May 21, 2002)

That would explain how some of them were taken down so easily by rather small volleys of droid fire.


 [/B][/QUOTE]


What about the one Daddy Fett killed?  Was that Jedi an apprentice or were Fett's skills so superior he could kill a Jedi that quickly?


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

A side note. The fight scene in EP4 does look a LOT better if you watch the wide screen version of the movie. If you watch the TV screen version they have to chop about 60% of the fight out cause Obi-wan and Vader were standing too far apart and the camera angle made it impossible to fit them onto the screen at the same time. That is why the EP4 fight looks so bad. Watch it in wide screen and it greatly improves. 

Also I once read a very good study of the fight scene in EP4 done by a kendo master. He described how Vader fought exactly like a rather limited mobility but supremely skilled swordsman would fight. Basically it can be summed up in you don't need to bounce around like a superball when you are that damn good. 




			
				nemmerle said:
			
		

> *My favorite light saber fight scene is STILL from EMPIRE. . . Sorry, but while Darth Maul was cool and Yoda was AMAZING. . . the drama and pathos of the Empire fight makes it far and above superior to all others.
> 
> As for changing the Ep IV fight - well, um - that one is my second favorite - and I love it just th way it is -  I imagine Obi-Wan and Vader constantly trying to use the force on each other - but matching it other constantly - but Obi-Wan is obviously struggling more.
> 
> ...


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

That sounds perfect. At the time Luke is born Vader probably can sense the great Jedi potential in him. Now I am betting Dooku bites it via Vader with a shocked look on his face when Palpatine lets Vader kill him.

This will let Vader know what could happen to him if Palpatine discovers Luke. Luke could and as we see in ROTJ be offered to kill Vader and replace him just as Vader will do to Dooku in EP3. So Vader plays a double game. He lets Obiwan hide Luke for two reasons.

1. Even Vader is not so cruel as to kill his own son.

2. If he plays his cards right Vader and Luke together can kill Palpatine and replace him as ruler of the Galaxy.

In fact part #2 does work perfectly except Luke makes a bad move throwing his saber and just like Anakin does in EP2 is foiled by Dark Lightning he did not know existed. So Vader weighs his options and in the end the part of him that is still good realises he loves his son and saves him at his own sacrifice.




			
				Lady Dragon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I personally beleive that Anakin/ Vader knew about Luke all along
> but allowed him to be hidden from the Emporer Palpatine. Vadar knows what will happen to Luke if the emporer get to him and I think like any father he doesn't want that for his son.After all Vader coveted the emporers throne for himself so he wasn't completely loyal so he may have hidden this from him.
> ...


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

My guess Is that Jagga Fett is that damn good. I mean thin k about it. He was chosen as the perfect starting point to breed an entire clone army. You don't pick a lousy schlepp as your template.

I think in EP3 you will see how badass even his son is when 20 some year old Boba Fett vapes Mace Windu big time.




			
				trentonjoe said:
			
		

> *That would explain how some of them were taken down so easily by rather small volleys of droid fire.
> 
> 
> *





What about the one Daddy Fett killed?  Was that Jedi an apprentice or were Fett's skills so superior he could kill a Jedi that quickly? [/B][/QUOTE]


----------



## trentonjoe (May 21, 2002)

In all the movies how many non-Jedi take out Jedi?  I was just suprised by Daddy Fett because I don't think I had seen it before.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

Several are taken down in the fight. Beyond that it is implied several times in 1 and 2 that Jedi are quite often killed in the line of duty.




			
				trentonjoe said:
			
		

> *In all the movies how many non-Jedi take out Jedi?  I was just suprised by Daddy Fett because I don't think I had seen it before. *


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

Am I the only one that sensed a look of fear/anticipation on Dooku's face when he heard the foot steps then saw Yoda walking into the room?

It was like Dooku wanted to face Yada because he wanted to believe he could best him but was still unsure of himself. It was great.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 21, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Am I the only one that sensed a look of fear/anticipation on Dooku's face when he heard the foot steps then saw Yoda walking into the room?
> 
> It was like Dooku wanted to face Yada because he wanted to believe he could best him but was still unsure of himself. It was great. *




good point. i sensed that too.

the one part i thought was cool, too, was when obi-wan told anakin in the troop transport "i can't take dooku alone. i need you!". i thought that was odd at the time, considering all along i thought anakin or obi wan was going to end up handling dooku with ease. it was not until after the movie was over that i realized the gravity of obi-wan's words.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

I figured Dooku would survive. It would have been too much like EP1 if another Sith Apprentice was killed.

Also I think Anakin will kill Dooku in EP3. It will probably be a shocking death for Dooku cause I bet Palpatine tells Anakin "kill Dooku and take your place at my side" in a virtual copy of the ROTJ scene with Luke.




			
				King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> good point. i sensed that too.
> 
> the one part i thought was cool, too, was when obi-wan told anakin in the troop transport "i can't take dooku alone. i need you!". i thought that was odd at the time, considering all along i thought anakin or obi wan was going to end up handling dooku with ease. it was not until after the movie was over that i realized the gravity of obi-wan's words. *


----------



## King_Stannis (May 21, 2002)

Joker said:
			
		

> *Never gonna see that again.  The visual effects were fantastic but take away the CGI and what do u have?
> 
> A B-movie...*





this argument always bring a chuckle to me. 

take away the zingers in "airplane", and what do you have? a boring movie about an airplane crashing.

take away the romance in "gone with the wind" and what do you have? a boring movie about the civil war?

i would submit that in a movie like star wars, the CGI is an integral part of the film. if it had been around in 1977, you better believe lucas would have used it to the max. and yes, you are correct - it is a "B" movie at heart. and so were the originals, IMHO. that's part of there charm. they're "B" movies on steroids!


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

Take away Jokers screen name and what do you get? A nameless troll. 




			
				King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> this argument always bring a chuckle to me.
> ...


----------



## KDLadage (May 21, 2002)

*Third time is a charm...*

I have seen this film three times in the theater now. It is quickly becoming my favorite of the movies... Not quite above ESB yet, but getting there.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 21, 2002)

*Re: Third time is a charm...*

Going to see it in digital this weekend. I saw it last night and the sound wasnt quite right. In fact when Fett was dropping those charges into the asteroid field the sound was actually cutting out completely for a split second when the explosion first happened.




			
				KDLadage said:
			
		

> *I have seen this film three times in the theater now. It is quickly becoming my favorite of the movies... Not quite above ESB yet, but getting there. *


----------



## trimeulose (May 21, 2002)

Ep.. 2 

ROCK!!!!

Take away the CGI and you don't have a B-movie. You have a movie with an awsome story line a moderate script.......and.....






Natalie Portman. Honestly. I don't know about you but my P just went.. huh?!?

Movie was superb. I am currently debating whether ESB or AotC was better. Right now I'm leaning on AotC. Why? See above statement. Costuming wasn't as blatant in EP1 and CGI took second place to story line. Yes I loved the story line. Not the surface story line, but the underlining story line. There is a lot more depth to the entire movie. I had to leave parts of myself in the theatre to take the whole movie with me (figuratively speaking).

I give it a 95 out of 97.


----------



## Henry (May 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: Third time is a charm...*



			
				DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *...In fact when Fett was dropping those charges into the asteroid field the sound was actually cutting out completely for a split second when the explosion first happened.
> *




Umm... I'm pretty sure that was supposed to happen. It happened at the viewing I went to, also.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 21, 2002)

*Re: Third time is a charm...*



			
				KDLadage said:
			
		

> *I have seen this film three times in the theater now. It is quickly becoming my favorite of the movies... Not quite above ESB yet, but getting there. *




i'm with ya.....i've seen it twice now, and for me it is approaching RotJ as my personal favorite.


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (May 21, 2002)

So, does anyone agree that Palpy is the best character in Star Wars Saga?


----------



## Carnifex (May 21, 2002)

The noise cut-out before the sonic mines detonated was indeed meant to occur.


----------



## Mouseferatu (May 21, 2002)

Numerous points, addressed from above:

The "sound cutting out" on the seismic charges was part of the sound effect, not an accident.  I've seen the movie twice now, in two different theaters, and everyone else who has seen it experienced the same thing.  I thought it was a really cool effect.

I don't think it'll be Boba Fett who kills Mace, since the next movie--as I undestand it--takes place only about a year, or even less, after this one.  Even Lucas with his fetish for overly skilled children wouldn't let a 10-year-old kill the second-greatest Jedi swordsman.  Right?  

And finally, the triangular ships we saw in AotC weren't Star Destroyers.  They were Acclimator-class troop carriers, with a design that was later carried over/borrowed for the first run of Star Destroyers.  Really, you'd think on a role-playing Forum, more people would've consulted the new revised Star Wars RPG for answers.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 21, 2002)

Melkor said:
			
		

> *So, does anyone agree that Palpy is the best character in Star Wars Saga? *




i agree. i also think that ian mcdiarmid has probably delivered the most consistent and superior performances of the series - from jedi to these last two.


----------



## Dr Midnight (May 21, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *i also think that ian mcdiarmid has probably delivered the most consistent and superior performances of the series - from jedi to these last two. *




I definitely agree with that. The guy gets overlooked constantly, but he really does perform well. I don't even think of him as an actor, most of the time... He's palpatine.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 22, 2002)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I definitely agree with that. The guy gets overlooked constantly, but he really does perform well. I don't even think of him as an actor, most of the time... He's palpatine. *




didn't you get the creeps when he was talking to padme and said something like "i just couldn't bear the loss if something were to happen to you". i sure as hell did.


----------



## Mouseferatu (May 25, 2002)

*Unobservant Droids*

*WARNING!!* 

What follows is potentially a spoiler for Episode III.  It's not much of a spoiler, because it's a very minor detail, and it's something we've all guessed already, but nevertheless, if you want to avoid it, don't scroll down.

*




*




*




*




*




Still here?  Okay.  The following is from E! News, courtesy of the Force.net website:



> Patrick Stinson: Anakin in Episode One created C3PO. In the original trilogy, C3PO doesn't recognize him as Darth Vader because...
> 
> George Lucas: Well, one, his brains have, his memory system has been erased and so has R2's. So, they don't remember anything from the first trilogy. I'm telling you something from Episode 3, but I shouldn't be telling you that, but I think most of the fans already know that.




There we have it, folks.  An answer straight from the man himself.  Thought you might like to know.


----------



## RangerWickett (May 25, 2002)

I firmly believe that the George Lucas we see before is not the real George Lucas, but a clone.


----------



## HellBlazer (May 25, 2002)

Finally got around to seeing 'Clones' last night...

If you take out ALL the scenes with Anakin in them, it's a pretty good movie...

I guess to become the cool Vader, he had to be the whining little twit..


----------



## Morrus (May 25, 2002)

Moved to Non-RPG Sci-Fi/Fantasy Discussion.


----------



## Corinth (May 25, 2002)

According to a recent Lucas interview--Time or EW?--Lucas said that Ep3 will be two years after Ep2, and ANH will be 20 years after Ep3.  If this pans out, then there will be no young Boba Fett getting his revenge upon Mace Windu.  Rather, it will probably be either Anakin or Dooku who does the deed.


----------



## Wolfspider (May 28, 2002)

Concerning Yoda's fighting style in Attack of the Clones, I think that this poster from Salon.com has a valid criticism:

"I can say that I never imagined Yoda would fight like a frenetic green housefly, crazily careening off of walls. I always imagined his saber flying around his body in a wild tempest of motion as he stood, calm and dignified, in the eye of the storm. His mini-kung-fu posing was just too much."

I agree that all of this Matrix posturing is a bit undignified for the greatest and wisest of the Jedi Masters.

Someone asked (in another thread that seems to have disappeared) "Well, Yoda is a Jedi Master...how else is he supposed to fight?"  Well, there's one possiblity up there--the telekinetic light saber whirlwind--and a really cool one I think.

Also, imagine if you would the scenes from _Akira_ in which the children battle telekinetically.  That's another cool possiblity.  

I wonder if Palpatine is going to bust a move in Episode III.  

I'm really rather disappointed that Lucus changed Yoda's fundamental personality so much in AotC by having him fight the way that he did.  As a currently running commercial loves to point out, Yoda is a "Great Warrior" now, kung fu master and kicker of ass. 

I can remember when the wizened old Jedi Master insisted that "Wars do not make one great."


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## Ristamar (May 28, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *Concerning Yoda's fighting style in Attack of the Clones, I think that this poster from Salon.com has a valid criticism:
> 
> "I can say that I never imagined Yoda would fight like a frenetic green housefly, crazily careening off of walls. I always imagined his saber flying around his body in a wild tempest of motion as he stood, calm and dignified, in the eye of the storm. His mini-kung-fu posing was just too much."
> 
> ...




I wouldn't call it a valid criticism.  I'd call it one person's opinion on the subject.  

The idea of a telekinetic saber battle is admittedly interesting, but I think it'd be ultimately boring on screen.  Why wouldn't all Jedi masters fight that way?  Why bother even touching the lightsaber at all?  Sounds a bit dull, or at the very least, it doesn't sound very _Star Wars_.

If you're looking for a more practical explanation (and let's be honest, we're talking Star Wars -- if you're searching for practicality and plausible science, you need to find some new movies), if a saber combatant ISN'T using the Force to wield his blade telekinetically, he can likely call upon other Force powers more easily and readily since he won't have to try to juggle two powers at once.

I don't think Star Wars fans ever doubted that Yoda could fight in some fashion (of course, it was shocking to see exactly how well he could lay the smack down, if need be).  All Jedi seem to be able handle themselves in a fight, so there's no reason to believe why the Little Green One would be an exception.  And while it's true that "wars do not make one great," it doesn't mean he shouldn't be able throw down when the **** hits the fan.

As for the kung fu-esque pose... *shrug* ...It certainly received a positive and audible response from the audience at each screening I've attended, though I can see why some may not find it amusing or appropriate.  To each his own.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 28, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *"I can say that I never imagined Yoda would fight like a frenetic green housefly, crazily careening off of walls. I always imagined his saber flying around his body in a wild tempest of motion as he stood, calm and dignified, in the eye of the storm. His mini-kung-fu posing was just too much."
> ....
> I can remember when the wizened old Jedi Master insisted that "Wars do not make one great." *




So Yoda is incapable of personal growth?  Besides, saying that "wars do not make one great" is wisdom that can only TRULY be gained after having been involved in war.  Role-playing stats aside, *true* wisdom comes from experience.  It is not a default state.  Also, it's not as if Yoda kicked open a door and started wailing on Dooku.  He knew what was going on, and it was obvious that a fight was the only way to end the threat of Dooku and save the younger Jedi.  Fighting when there is no other choice is, I think, an acceptable choice for the wise. 

Moving on to the technique issue... any way of wielding a lightsaber without actually handling it takes Yoda out of the hero role and makes him invincible and uninteresting from a narrative standpoint.  You're not a hero unless there's an element of risk, and telekinetically wielding a weapon effectively makes one invincible.  The only limitation on how one uses a weapon is the fact that you have to keep your body attached to it.  A telekinetically manipulated weapon would be unblockable, or more accurately, you could only block it once.  After that, it would simply spin around your weapon and you would be dead.  The fight would last about 3/10 of a second.

Besides, are Shaolin any less monks because they can fight?  Mental discipline and physical discipline are deeply connected.  An undisciplined body can taint even the most disciplined mind.  If we accept the theory that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi, his physical prowess should at least match his mental prowess.  I think it was appropriate to display this.

Ultimately, though, these complaints are just another version of the "Lucas didn't make MY movie" whining that made Episode 1 a "failure."  I think there's something inherently contradictory about the statement "This scene didn't play out the way _I_ always imagined it.  It's clear he's gone commercial and lost _his_ artistic vision."  Emphasis mine.


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## Black Omega (May 29, 2002)

Corinth said:
			
		

> *According to a recent Lucas interview--Time or EW?--Lucas said that Ep3 will be two years after Ep2, and ANH will be 20 years after Ep3.  If this pans out, then there will be no young Boba Fett getting his revenge upon Mace Windu.  Rather, it will probably be either Anakin or Dooku who does the deed. *



My assumption is that little Boba can be force grown like any other clone, so he can be a little more suitable age for getting revenge.  It might very well be someone else wounds Mace badly and Boba does the CDG.  But if Boba's not involved in Mace's dramatic death, there's little point to making a point of showing him holding his dad's helmut.  Why set up a classic revenge if you are just going to drop it next film?  At the very least Boba should take a shot and fail and Mace is simply unable to kill a kid wanting to avenge his dad.


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## Sulimo (May 29, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> * But if Boba's not involved in Mace's dramatic death, there's little point to making a point of showing him holding his dad's helmut.  Why set up a classic revenge if you are just going to drop it next film?  At the very least Boba should take a shot and fail and Mace is simply unable to kill a kid wanting to avenge his dad. *




It could just be Lucas hammering the point home that the kid does indeed grow up to be Boba Fett  - Bounty Hunter. Like Lucas hammers home several other points in Ep I & II to the point of overkill imo. 

Personally, I hoped Boba would get his revenge in Episode III. But if it is set 2 years after AOTC I doubt it will happen.


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## Fenros (May 29, 2002)

Canis wrote: 







> Ultimately, though, these complaints are just another version of the "Lucas didn't make MY movie" whining that made Episode 1 a "failure." I think there's something inherently contradictory about the statement "This scene didn't play out the way I always imagined it. It's clear he's gone commercial and lost his artistic vision." Emphasis mine.




I do agree there are A LOT of people that fall into this category, but I thought I'd drop in a few words here and make a reminder that not all of us think this way. 

Some plainly think Ep1 and/or Ep2 were poor films simply because they were made poorly. What I mean is that the art and craft of film making was poor. 

I for one fall into this category. I loved the Yoda fight at the end of Ep.2 and had nothing wrong to say about the decision to portray it the way Lucas did. My gripes stem from the poor (practically amateurish) directing and editing (storytelling) decisions made by Lucas.

I know Star Wars is his story, we're just kinda watching it unfold. We're not the creators, we don't have rights to make him change anything. 

But the only thing I want from Lucas is better directing. That's all. Heck, I'm willing to overlook Midicholorians if Ep1  was better directed. And although I rated Ep2 higher than Ep1, it still didn't score that high in my book. Again, directing and editing was poor.

But please don't lump me (and others like me) in with those that just complain because things weren't the way they imagined them.

Actually.........well, maybe I am like them. The thing I imagined that Lucas didn't give me was good directing.


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## Sulimo (May 29, 2002)

Fenros said:
			
		

> *Canis wrote:
> Actually.........well, maybe I am like them. The thing I imagined that Lucas didn't give me was good directing.  *




Well, you should have expected that after seeing the 'romance' trailer 

For me, most of my problems with the film stemmed from the direction (and some of the dialog - although with better direction perhaps the dialog issues I had may have been softened).

There were really only one or two cases where I felt things were done that I didnt like. The first was the puns of C3PO, that really had me squirming in my seat; and the other was the Yoda fight. The main problem I had with it was the appropriateness of it all. based on the reaction of the audience, it was treated as a big joke, where I really felt this scene should have been one of the more serious parts of the film. Actually the first thing I thought of after seeing it was the 'vorpal bunny scene in MP & the Holy Grail.

And then there was having C3PO showing up at the farm scenes with Lars & Beru - that whole thing threw me for a loop, pulling me out of the film while I tried to process how that fitted into the continuity of the SW films.


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## Wolfspider (May 29, 2002)

> Actually the first thing I thought of after seeing it was the 'vorpal bunny scene in MP & the Holy Grail.




LOL!  So true, so sadly true.  While many (if not most) people thought the Yoda fight was cool, I (obviously in the minority) thought that it was . . . embarrassing . . . undignified... like you said, a big joke.

And, despite what others may claim, I am allowed to have certain expectations based on previous artistic work.  The Yoda of Empire and Jedi clearly thought that "wars do not make one great."  Now he is "a great warrior" in Clones (a characterization that is focused upon in the current commercials).  This is not "personal growth."  It is sloppy characterization.  A writer or director cannot change the nature of his characters arbitrarily.  Like many critics have noted, Yoda has gone from Ghandi to Rambo.  Is that "personal growth"?  Or merely a way to get a cheap thrill out of the audience?


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## Rel (May 29, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> * And, despite what others may claim, I am allowed to have certain expectations based on previous artistic work.  The Yoda of Empire and Jedi clearly thought that "wars do not make one great."  Now he is "a great warrior" in Clones (a characterization that is focused upon in the current commercials).  This is not "personal growth."  It is sloppy characterization.  A writer or director cannot change the nature of his characters arbitrarily.  Like many critics have noted, Yoda has gone from Ghandi to Rambo.  Is that "personal growth"?  Or merely a way to get a cheap thrill out of the audience? *




I don't disagree with your right to have whatever expectations you want, Wolfspider.  But I thought it might be valid to point out that because these movies precede the original trilogy, Yoda has not gone from Ghandi to Rambo, he has gone from Rambo to Ghandi.  That is personal growth.

You may disagree, but I have an easy time imagining Yoda contemplating these very points during his "exile" on Dagobah in the years between Ep III and IV.  He sits around thinking, "What a fool I was.  I was caught up in the glory and excitement of leading an army and fighting a war that I thought was just.  I should have been paying attention to the fact that the Old Republic was going to hell in a handbasket."  Clearly he has learned that combat ability is not nearly as important as the ability to focus on your surroundings and find the correct path to follow.  I think that his training of Luke is a pretty good reflection of that.

YMMV

On a slightly different note, while I generally liked AOTC, I thought that the scene where Shmi died in Anakin's arms was unbelievably trite and cliche.  It would have been so easy to just have one of the Sand People kill her with a pot shot as Anakin tried to sneak away with her.  Same net effect but without the (IMHO) horribly overdone death scene that was in the movie.

And I also thought the the "head swapping" and cheesy one-liners for C-3PO in the final battle somehow managed to rob him of the dignity he had worked so hard to retain throughout the other movies up till now.

Anyhow, in short I'd say that where this movie was bad, it was very bad.  But where it was good, it was VERY good.


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## Wolfspider (May 29, 2002)

Rel said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't disagree with your right to have whatever expectations you want, Wolfspider.  But I thought it might be valid to point out that because these movies precede the original trilogy, Yoda has not gone from Ghandi to Rambo, he has gone from Rambo to Ghandi.  That is personal growth.
> 
> ...




This is actually a very good point.  Let's hope that Mr. Lucus actually runs with this idea.  It would make sense.  It just rankles me that they're focusing so much on Yoda being a "great warrior" in the commercials.  It seems rather hypocritical to me in some way I don't completely understand.  In fact, I haven't felt this upset about a commercial since one claimed that "before there were hobbits there was Willow"....


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## Ristamar (May 29, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *
> 
> LOL!  So true, so sadly true.  While many (if not most) people thought the Yoda fight was cool, I (obviously in the minority) thought that it was . . . embarrassing . . . undignified... like you said, a big joke.
> 
> And, despite what others may claim, I am allowed to have certain expectations based on previous artistic work.  The Yoda of Empire and Jedi clearly thought that "wars do not make one great."  Now he is "a great warrior" in Clones (a characterization that is focused upon in the current commercials).  This is not "personal growth."  It is sloppy characterization.  A writer or director cannot change the nature of his characters arbitrarily.  Like many critics have noted, Yoda has gone from Ghandi to Rambo.  Is that "personal growth"?  Or merely a way to get a cheap thrill out of the audience? *




I can understand that you might've thought the scene was silly, but I honestly think you're nitpicking with your claims of sloppy characterization.  The commercial tagline is obviously an anecdotal throwback to Yoda's little quip in _Empire_, not some grand declaration of hypocrisy.  I really don't see how this is an arbitrary character change considering how little we knew of Yoda before the prequels began to emerge, and I think the Ghandi to Rambo analogy is more than a slight exaggeration, as well (one 5 minute squabble through 4 movie appearances doesn't exactly qualify one as an action star, IMO).  

Admittedly, the fight scene may have clashed with one's personal connotations of Yoda, or perhaps it may have come off as a bit silly, but crying foul primarily because of two words in a 30 second TV spot is truly pulling at straws.  But, again, that's just my opinion.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 29, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *This is actually a very good point.  Let's hope that Mr. Lucus actually runs with this idea.  It would make sense.  It just rankles me that they're focusing so much on Yoda being a "great warrior" in the commercials.  It seems rather hypocritical to me in some way I don't completely understand.  In fact, I haven't felt this upset about a commercial since one claimed that "before there were hobbits there was Willow".... *




I *have* to assume that both of those commercials are the product of a marketing department and that Lucas is just being typically unplugged.

Of course, "wars do not make one great" does not necessarily mean that he's not a great warrior.  Just that being a great warrior does not make one a great person.  In fact, it might make it harder.  It certainly did for Anakin.


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## Rel (May 29, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *This is actually a very good point.  Let's hope that Mr. Lucus actually runs with this idea.  It would make sense.  It just rankles me that they're focusing so much on Yoda being a "great warrior" in the commercials.  *




Well, frankly I would be hard pressed to imagine that it can be overlooked.  In Episode III, there has got to be some point where Yoda (perhaps along with Obi-Wan) looks at the situation and says, "What have we allowed to happen?!" (Actually, knowing Yoda, he'll probably say, "Along the primrose path we have been led.")

Also, over the weekend, my wife and I watched both Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back just to sort of see how "backward compatible" they were.  One thing that I noticed was how much of a "crazy old man" vibe Yoda has when he first meets Luke (compared to how he is portrayed in TPM and AOTC).  I mean, he is eating Luke's rations, playing with his flashlight and banging on R-2 with a stick.  This from the guy who used to command the most powerful group of elite individuals in the galaxy and live in a luxury apartment building on Coruscant.

So it seems to me that living with the guilt of what happened on his watch has driven Yoda ever so slightly mad.  But once he falls back into his role of being a teacher, he is the zen little philosopher that we all know and love.  So, in a way, Luke helps Yoda at least as much as Yoda helps Luke.

Luke must represent to him a chance to redeem himself in his own eyes.  But he also represents the possibility of making a bad situation even worse (if Luke turns to the Dark Side).  So it is a huge gamble that he is taking and he is understandably reluctant to let Luke go to aid his friends.

This is also telling when you compare it to the events in AOTC.  Perhaps Yoda realizes that the rigid restraints placed on Anakin by the Jedi order were indirectly responsible for his turn to the Dark Side (No, Anakin, you can't go back to Tatooine to rescue your mother.  No, Anakin, you can't fall in love with a woman and get married.).  He doesn't want to make the same mistake with Luke so he lets him go to the aid of the people he loves.

When you get right down to it, it is no wonder that the Jedi order normally only takes in kids when they are very young.  If you let them get older, they will have formed emotional attachments to other people which will be stronger than their dedication to their Jedi training.  That leaves them wide open for emotional blackmail.  It happened to Luke when Vader used Leia and Han to bring him to Bespin.  And of course Vader learned that trick when Palpatine used Amidala to pull him toward the dark side.

Ugh.  Sorry for the disertation.


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## Fenros (May 30, 2002)

Rel wrote: 







> One thing that I noticed was how much of a "crazy old man" vibe Yoda has when he first meets Luke (compared to how he is portrayed in TPM and AOTC). I mean, he is eating Luke's rations, playing with his flashlight and banging on R-2 with a stick. This from the guy who used to command the most powerful group of elite individuals in the galaxy and live in a luxury apartment building on Coruscant.
> 
> So it seems to me that living with the guilt of what happened on his watch has driven Yoda ever so slightly mad. But once he falls back into his role of being a teacher, he is the zen little philosopher that we all know and love. So, in a way, Luke helps Yoda at least as much as Yoda helps Luke.




Whoa, I think you missed entirely what Yoda was doing there in Empire Strikes Back. He was acting silly on purpose. He knew Luke was coming. He was testing him. Checking him out. He was pretending to be some crazy little annoying guy to test Luke. To see what kind of patience he had. 

Luke failed, he (as well as the audience that saw this movie for the first time without prior knowledge) thought Yoda was some crazy swamp goblin side character. He treated Yoda like he was a nobody. Based off appearances. Something a Jedi shouldn't do. 

If someone that looked like Chow-Yun Fat's character from "Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon" walked out of the swamp, maybe Luke would've thought that he could be this great Jedi.......could be worthy of respect. Instead, he gets this little goblin thing who's overly curious but harmless. But Luke immediately thinks he's not worth reverence or respect. Luke respected him as much as one of us respects a street bum. Thus, he failed Yoda's test.

Oh, and as much as I thought AOTC failed in film directing/editing, I still thought the portrayal of Yoda was fine. He's very much like some old martial arts monk. He only resorts to the physical when he needs to. Count Dooku initiated a duel between them using sabers only. Yoda had enough honor and confidence to go along with that duel. Its clearly obvious afterward that Yoda is very unhappy about having to go the route of violence. But its something that was unavoidable. It just had to be done. Both the attack of the Clones and the duel with Dooku. If it were up to him, both would've never happened. I felt Yoda in Ep1 and Ep2 was still very much in line with Yoda in Ep5 and Ep6. I think a lot of people are reading too much into it or something weird.


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## Rel (May 30, 2002)

Of course you are right, Fenros.  As I said, I was watching the old movies to see how they fit together with the new ones so I'm admittedly reading too much into it.

But if what you say is true, and Luke did fail Yoda's test, then why did he train him anyway?  I think that what I said about the dangerous prospects of Luke going Dark Side is pretty much on the mark.  And Yoda already knows that "There is another."  So why not skip training Luke who clearly lacks the patience for it and go right to Leia?

I suppose I can sort of answer my own questions.  I guess the whole "bird in the hand" philosophy applies here.  Luke was already on Dagobah and Yoda had no way of knowing where Leia was (until Luke started having visions of Bespin).  Therefore, even though he failed the test, he was the best shot at the moment. (It occurs to me that this is precisely the kind of pragmatism that got him into trouble when he decided to grab the nearest clone army to help him out with his crisis in Ep II.)

I guess you could also argue that Yoda wasn't going to train Luke until Obi-Wan talked him into it.  One thing that bothered me about that exchange was that when Yoda asserted that Luke was too rash and impatient to begin the training, Obi-Wan replied with something along the lines of "Was I any different when you started training me?"  From what we've seen in Episode I and II, Obi-Wan was very much a "toe the line" kind of Jedi.  He attempted to be a moderating influence on both his master (Qui-Gon) and his apprentice when each tried to strain against the will of the Jedi Council.

Anyhow, let me just clarify one thing about my speculations in the post above:  I know that what Fenros says is correct.  Yoda in ESB was not "crazy from guilt".  He was a bit silly because it put him in the role of an unlikely hero and tossed the whole "never judge a book by its cover" moral into the story.  I understand the causality link that I'm proposing does not exist.

But still it is fun to speculate and I suppose that it directly stems from my roleplaying experience.  As a GM, I often throw disperate plots at the party early in a campaign.  Sometimes I like to go back and reexamine these plots and see if they somehow fit together in a way that suggests a larger story arc.  I've gotten pretty good at filling in the cracks between these plots and explaining away any inconsistencies.  So it is only natural that I'm trying to do the same thing with Star Wars.  All in all, a fairly fun, if useless exercise.


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## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

Yoda has certainly become the most interesting person in the movies in my opinion. The one thing you have to realise is that Yoda is not perfect. He makes mistakes in the first two movies and he even makes a mistake in Empires.

In EP1 Yoda makes the mistake of tradition. Jedi tradition seems to say a Jedi Master can take on any pupil he or she wants. When Obi Wan says he will take on Anakin there is nothing for Yoda to do. This puts a very difficult student in the hands of a brand new teacher. A better solution would have been to make Anakin the Padawan of either Yoda himself of Mace Windu both Jedi with much more experience in teaching.

In EP2 Yoda makes a further mistake of sending a very inexperienced and headstrong Anakin off on a mission alone with a female senator who is also equally well known to be headstrong. At the same time the entire Jedi order make a huge mistake in not altering its rules to fit Anakins uniqie position. Unlike every Jedi before him Anakin knows his mother. He has strong attachments to her. This makes her a continual distractionm. The smart move on the part of the Jedi would have been to send someone to purchase his mother and then relocated her to somewhere comfortable on say Naboo where Anakin could no longer worry about how her life was. The nightmares Anakin was getting were very strong and appeared to be rather unusual for a Jedi. It makes me wonder if they were natural of Sith enhanced.

Finally in Empires Yoda makes yet another mistake. He teaches Luke how to use the force to see and the result is he sees the danger to his friends on Bespin. Yoda makes the mistake even worse by trying to keep Luke from leaving. My guess is that Yoda saw Luke leaving to be the same as when Anakin ran off to Tatooine and started his path down the dark side by salughtering the Sand People. This is a mistake for Yoda because the two events are not the same. Anakin went for selfish reasons and even willingly let people down and put Padme at risk. She is still technically being hunted. Luke on the other hand was acting in a manner full of self sacrifice. I very much doubt that the dark side has much of a chance grabbing hold of someone who is willing to do so much selflessly. The Bespin scene in fact was not as big a failure as poeple would think. Sure Leia and Chewie were able to escape on their own and even had to save Luke. Luke though got to learn how powerful the Dark Side was and who his father was. These were valuable lessons that helped prepare Luke for his encounter with the Emperor. How do you think the final battle had turned out if Luke had learned who his father was in the thrown room? Odds are much worse, without that knowledge Luke would have never had a chance to feel that little bit of good that was in his father. That knowledge is what held back Lukes final strike on Vader while Vader was down. There is little doubt that Luke would have fully turned to the Dark Side if he had killed Vader in rage.

Finally there is the Leia, someone asked why Yoda did not skip Luke and train Leia instead.

Yeah like that would have ever happened. You have a choice between a young and impressionable youth who has lived on Tatooine all his life OR his sister the grizzled former Imperial Senator and life long politician.

I doubt Yoda would think it a very good idea to train Leia very much in the Jedi way. I doubt he has much faith in any sort of Politicians. Also I doubt Leia is all that gifted in the Force really. If she was then how did she spend all that time in the Imperial Senate without Darth Vader or the Emperor sensing it.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

I largely agree with you, Doc, but for a couple things:



			
				DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *At the same time the entire Jedi order make a huge mistake in not altering its rules to fit Anakins uniqie position. Unlike every Jedi before him Anakin knows his mother. He has strong attachments to her. This makes her a continual distractionm. The smart move on the part of the Jedi would have been to send someone to purchase his mother and then relocated her to somewhere comfortable on say Naboo where Anakin could no longer worry about how her life was. *




First, bending the rules for one individual (no matter how unique) is always a bad precedent in a group dependent upon rules and order.  It fosters resentment, for one thing.  And the beneficiary gets more and more full of himself as time goes by.  If anything, they already set Anakin apart too much.

Also, I don't think the Jedi can be blamed entirely for not picking up on what a potential problem Shmi was.  They've all been raised without attachments of that nature for generations.  Most of them probably don't fully understand the nature of those attachments.  Obi-Wan certainly didn't.  His "Dreams pass" line was evidence of that.  If anything, the error of the Jedi was in sequestering themselves so much from normal people.  They lock themselves up in literal ivory towers above Coruscant, going out as diplomats or to dispense justice rather than to help the people directly, and interacting more with the corrupt politicians they should be shunning than the average person who needs help.  It's an arrogant isolationism that sets them apart from the common people.  Yoda seems to recognize this to some extent, even taking a shot at Mace Windu (and the Jedi in general) for arrogance.  It's really this arrogance that sets up their fall.  IMO, Yoda will come to fully recognize this, and that's why he chooses such a humble place as Dagobah to hide.  It is a form of penance for himself, and it also serves to teach his last student, Luke Skywalker, that humility is an important trait in a Jedi.


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## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

I disagree, you breed more anger, resentment, and the same arrogance you saw so much of among the Jedi when you paint everything with the same broad brush no matter what the situation might be.

Also there is the other simple logic. Shmi bore the force super child as she said without ever getting pregnant. This alone sounds like reason for the Jedi to break their own rules and bring her back if nothing else then to carefully study her. 

If I was a Jedi I would be curious to find out if she was either:

1. Lying

2. Being used by someone with her knowing

3. Actually exactly what she said she was.

No matter which of the three above is right the Jedi have no way of knowing. They do not even know if it could happen again for her.

Simple logic says she is a special woman and special care of her would be prudent.





			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *I largely agree with you, Doc, but for a couple things:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *I disagree, you breed more anger, resentment, and the same arrogance you saw so much of among the Jedi when you paint everything with the same broad brush no matter what the situation might be.
> 
> Also there is the other simple logic. Shmi bore the force super child as she said without ever getting pregnant. This alone sounds like reason for the Jedi to break their own rules and bring her back if nothing else then to carefully study her.
> ...
> Simple logic says she is a special woman and special care of her would be prudent. *




Just another symptom of their arrogance.  She herself is not a Force-user.  Therefore, she is unimportant.  Also, their Prophecy would make mention of her if she was important (their logical error, not mine).

As for bending the rules... I've been in a few structured organizations, and my viewpoint is based on those.  When everyone is treated largely the same, people generally deal with it.  They may not like everything about how they are treated, but they have a hard time complaining because everyone else is being given the EXACT same treatment.  Once someone is given special treatment, resentment gets in: "Why does HE get that kind of attention when I don't?"  Using a broad brush may not make everybody happy, but in my experience, it keeps the peace.  Organizations vary almost as much as people, though, and there are those that thrive with a more personalized approach.  The Jedi just didn't strike me as one of those.  I got the impression that the only way to get perks was to earn them (i.e. Jedi Council members get to use electrum lightsabers if they want them as a mark of their long and impressive service, etc.) or by seniority, which I personally think is a good way of going about it.  Besides, in the case of the Jedi, they're not SUPPOSED to want things for themselves, and for most of them, there AREN'T any unusual situations.  They've all lived in the exact same environment for as long as they can remember.


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## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

This is part of the problem. You as well as the Jedi council treat their organisation as a military one.

Rules are more important than people.
Tradition more important than people.
Order more important than people.

When Anakin questions Obi-wan in front of other he pretty much gets his head bitten off and he is told that he WILL learn his place.

This is arrogance, this sounds more like some  officer in the military talking to a grunt. At no point in that conversation do you sense that a Teacher and Student are talking. Anakin is supposed to look up at Obi-wan like a teacher and a mentor and instead when he asks questions he gets slapped down like some back talking grunt.

That attitude fosters much of the anger and resentment that drives Anakin to dark side.


There is another item that comes to mind that makes this even worse. Remember when Padme and Anakin get to Naboo and they meet with the Queen and her advisors. At one point one of the advisors makes the mistake of callign Anakin a master Jedi. Padme immedialty laughs and says Anakin is not a jedi. She says "he is just a Padawan learner".

How is that for a slap in the face. Right there I realized what kind of a self centered b*tch she was. She might as well have come out and said he was spaceport scum off the bottom of her shoe.

I won't even go into what it must feel like for Anakin to be meeting people who continue to use a boyhood name like "Annie" when they talk to him. I can tell you how I would feel if people had called me Timmy when I was 20 and full of the idea that I was an adult in control of my life.





			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> As for bending the rules... I've been in a few structured organizations, and my viewpoint is based on those.   *


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *This is part of the problem. You as well as the Jedi council treat their organisation as a military one.
> 
> Rules are more important than people.
> Tradition more important than people.
> Order more important than people.*




I think they're more a strict order of monks than a military organization.  And I think you're attributing their error to me.  I don't necessarily agree with their way of handling these issues.  In fact, that's what my whole post about arrogance was getting at.  They ARE going about things the wrong way, and it's one of the things that will contribute to their downfall.  I don't think Palpatine will be able to completely get rid of the Jedi without at least the tacit approval of the public, which means he's going to have to discredit them, which they've made a LOT easier by isolating themselves from the public and putting rules ahead of people, both inside and outside the organization.

Personally, I thought Qui-Gon Jinn was the Jedi who really had things right.  He always put people ahead of the rules, which is why he was on the outs with the Council.  I have no doubt that he would have gone back for Shmi at some point, the will of the Council be damned.  His philosophy is superior IMO, but I do think it's much harder to practice with an entire organization.  In my experience, once everyone decides they deserve individual attention and treatment, the organization spends all its time and energy dealing with internal issues where individuals start putting ALL their concerns (both important and petty) ahead of the good of the group.  Trust me, I've seen it happen, and it isn't pretty.  It's possible the Jedi would be above that kind of selfishness, but I think their rules came from a desire to take away the sense of self in order to avoid selfishness.  Selfishness, after all, seems to be the hot track to the Dark Side.

I also agree with you about Obi-Wan and Padme's treatment of Anakin for the most part, though I imagine Obi-Wan simply had to deal with that kind of thing so often that he was simply losing patience.  Kind of an exasperated father thing, which makes his statement a little more understandable.  After all, Anakin DOES have his place.  The system exists to teach him, and if he's constantly jumping fences and ignoring his teacher, then I can see why Obi-Wan would be a little harsh with him.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

I get the impression that Obi-Wan was compensating for how Qui-Gon had taught him. Obi-Wan didnt agree with his masters style so more than anything he felt he was going to do things by the book.

Unfortuantely in a one on one situation of mentor and student you cannot act the way Obi-Wan did. On top of it you have to realize that coming down on Anakin the way Obi-Wan did and in front of the other people had to make the situation worse. It told everyone in the room that Anakin was a petulent child and Padme at the very least took that thought to heart in how she treated Anakin.




			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I also agree with you about Obi-Wan and Padme's treatment of Anakin for the most part, though I imagine Obi-Wan simply had to deal with that kind of thing so often that he was simply losing patience.  Kind of an exasperated father thing, which makes his statement a little more understandable.  After all, Anakin DOES have his place.  The system exists to teach him, and if he's constantly jumping fences and ignoring his teacher, then I can see why Obi-Wan would be a little harsh with him. *


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *I get the impression that Obi-Wan was compensating for how Qui-Gon had taught him. Obi-Wan didnt agree with his masters style so more than anything he felt he was going to do things by the book.
> 
> Unfortuantely in a one on one situation of mentor and student you cannot act the way Obi-Wan did. On top of it you have to realize that coming down on Anakin the way Obi-Wan did and in front of the other people had to make the situation worse. It told everyone in the room that Anakin was a petulent child and Padme at the very least took that thought to heart in how she treated Anakin. *



Agreed.  I'm not saying that it was the right time and place for censuring Anakin, just that I can understand why Obi-Wan did it.  We don't make our best decisions when we're exasperated with our children/students/etc.

Besides, WASN'T Anakin a petulant child?


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

Possibly, but I bet he would have been much less of one under say Qui-Gon as his mentor.

Anakin was also right in what he said. I am sure that The Chancellor selected them so that they would start looking into the attacks and track them back. He needed the clone army to be found by the Jedi.




			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> Agreed.  I'm not saying that it was the right time and place for censuring Anakin, just that I can understand why Obi-Wan did it.  We don't make our best decisions when we're exasperated with our children/students/etc.
> 
> Besides, WASN'T Anakin a petulant child?   *


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Possibly, but I bet he would have been much less of one under say Qui-Gon as his mentor.
> 
> Anakin was also right in what he said. I am sure that The Chancellor selected them so that they would start looking into the attacks and track them back. He needed the clone army to be found by the Jedi.*




Perhaps, but it's also an arrogant presumption that the Jedi are above such mundane activities as being her bodyguard.  THAT was a slap in the face for Padme's chief of security, AND it was a lot for an apprentice to be reading into his orders.

I have little doubt that Anakin would have become a better person under Qui-Gon's tutelage, but he would be just as much, if not more, of a maverick in the eyes of the Jedi.  Which could have led to his downfall anyway.  Just a bit differently.


----------



## Rel (May 30, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *Besides, WASN'T Anakin a petulant child?   *




I think there's a pretty good point here.  Consider that with the exception of Anakin (and later, Luke) that all the Jedi were taken from their families at a very young age.  The relationship between master and apprentice necessarily needs to be parental in nature.  In other words, the master will inevitably say to the padawan at some point, "Because I said so, that's why!"

The kind of rigid discipline the Jedi require is perfectly logical when you look at the damage a rogue Jedi can do, not just to other non-Jedi, but to the credibility of the entire organization.

Also on the matter of Anakin as a petulant child, consider that he has only had ten years of training.  By the time most Jedi have had that much training, they are only about half his age.  In other words, I think it is very plausable that Anakin is at that point in his Jedi career where he knows just enough to be dangerous.  Couple that with the fact that he has a ton of force potential and I can easily understand Obi-Wan keeping him on a short leash.

In hindsight, this is of course a bad idea because it is a contributory factor to Anakin going Dark Side later.  It also doesn't help that (unbeknownst to the Jedi) they have someone (Palpatine) actively acting to subvert the discipline they are attempting to instill.  But as has been amply pointed out, the Jedi are rather arrogant, and rightly so.  I mean, when you have a system that has worked well for the last *thousand generations* you tend to not want to change it.

Success breeds complacency.


----------



## Fenros (May 30, 2002)

Rel wrote:







> Anyhow, let me just clarify one thing about my speculations in the post above: I know that what Fenros says is correct. Yoda in ESB was not "crazy from guilt". He was a bit silly because it put him in the role of an unlikely hero and tossed the whole "never judge a book by its cover" moral into the story. I understand the causality link that I'm proposing does not exist.
> 
> But still it is fun to speculate and I suppose that it directly stems from my roleplaying experience. As a GM, I often throw disperate plots at the party early in a campaign. Sometimes I like to go back and reexamine these plots and see if they somehow fit together in a way that suggests a larger story arc. I've gotten pretty good at filling in the cracks between these plots and explaining away any inconsistencies. So it is only natural that I'm trying to do the same thing with Star Wars. All in all, a fairly fun, if useless exercise.




Naw, its not useless. Exercises like that make for sharpening skills a good writer should have.  Sorrry if I misunderstood your exercise.

Rel wrote: 







> One thing that bothered me about that exchange was that when Yoda asserted that Luke was too rash and impatient to begin the training, Obi-Wan replied with something along the lines of "Was I any different when you started training me?"




Actually I think it went like:

YODA: (to Luke) "You are reckless."
OBI-WAN: "Was I any different."

Suggesting that Obi-Wan was wreckless as a young Jedi or young Padawan. Maybe he was before the start of Ep1. But since it was mentioned in Empire you suspect it would've been shown more clearly in the first trilogy. *Shrug*

The only reckless thing I ever saw Obi-Wan do was jump through a window to grab a flying droid in Ep2. The one instance is hardly enough to portray his character as being reckless.

DocMoriartty wrote:







> The smart move on the part of the Jedi would have been to send someone to purchase his mother and then relocated her to somewhere comfortable on say Naboo where Anakin could no longer worry about how her life was.




Agreed.


Canis wrote:







> First, bending the rules for one individual (no matter how unique) is always a bad precedent in a group dependent upon rules and order. It fosters resentment, for one thing. And the beneficiary gets more and more full of himself as time goes by. If anything, they already set Anakin apart too much.




That's a good point too. However I don't think that line of thought should apply with the Jedi here.

Under optimum conditions, no exceptions should be made. I agree. Assuming that the theory poster here have that Jedi are taken at an early age to they only have mentors and not traditional parents. But the case of Anakin came to the Jedi under different circumstances. One that involved his mother too. 

I don't think making an exception here would have fostered any resentment from other Jedi. The others would've known that his case is different. If any Jedi had resentment, then perhaps they aren't the type that should be Jedi to begin with. 

Relocating his mother wouldn't have disrupted his training. If anything, it would've improved it. He wouldn't be tempted to break mission parameters to go rescue her or anything.

They already made an exception anyways by letting Anakin in at his age, its obvious that the Mother must come with that exception. I think its just more poor writing from Lucas.

DocMoriartty wrote:







> Anakin went for selfish reasons and even willingly let people down and put Padme at risk. She is still technically being hunted. Luke on the other hand was acting in a manner full of self sacrifice. I very much doubt that the dark side has much of a chance grabbing hold of someone who is willing to do so much selflessly




I don't think Yoda was trying to stop Luke from going to Bespin because he thought he was going for selfish reasons. Yoda didn't want him to go because he knew it must be some sort of trap. That more than likely its Vadar behind his friend's suffering. And that if he went he would encounter Vader. Yoda was afraid Vader would tempt Luke into the dark side. And he was right.

Vader tempted Luke to hatred and anger. But thank goodness Yoda's fears were avoided. Luke remained strong and survived the encounter. Yoda just didn't want Luke taking the risk, considering he still had much to learn.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

Maybe, or maybe not. Anakin has been a Jedi Padawan for 10 years. What if Obi-Wan and him in 10 years have never once been a bodyguard for someone. Its no longer arrogant assumption. It is now a statement of fact. If Jedi are never used as bodyguard then it does raise an eyebrow when they are suddenly used in that role.




			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Perhaps, but it's also an arrogant presumption that the Jedi are above such mundane activities as being her bodyguard.  THAT was a slap in the face for Padme's chief of security, AND it was a lot for an apprentice to be reading into his orders.
> 
> I have little doubt that Anakin would have become a better person under Qui-Gon's tutelage, but he would be just as much, if not more, of a maverick in the eyes of the Jedi.  Which could have led to his downfall anyway.  Just a bit differently. *


----------



## Mouseferatu (May 30, 2002)

> The only reckless thing I ever saw Obi-Wan do was jump through a window to grab a flying droid in Ep2. The one instance is hardly enough to portray his character as being reckless.




Really?

Attacking Darth Maul on his own after Qui-Gon was killed could qualify, since he had to know Maul was the better swordsman.

More importantly, though, being reckless doesn't have to involve _physical_ risk.  I think swearing to take Anakin as his apprentice, despite the fact that he was still a Padawan himself, and despite the fact that the Council--and he himself, for that matter--had doubts about the boy...  I think that qualifies.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

This does lead to the fact that through the force Yoda knew DArth Vader was on Bespin and did nothing to warn him. Luke may have changed his actions if Yoda had simply said:

"Go you should not, the slayer of all the Jedi is at Bespin. Against Darth Vader no chance you will have at this time."

Then again I still think Luke's going was the best thing that could hav happened. It gave him the training and outlook that made him strong enough to survive in ROTJ. 

It would though have been nice if at some point Yoda had warned Luke about Force Lightning.  The Skywalkers just don't have much good luck when it comes into play.




			
				Fenros said:
			
		

> I don't think Yoda was trying to stop Luke from going to Bespin because he thought he was going for selfish reasons. Yoda didn't want him to go because he knew it must be some sort of trap. That more than likely its Vadar behind his friend's suffering. And that if he went he would encounter Vader. Yoda was afraid Vader would tempt Luke into the dark side. And he was right.
> 
> Vader tempted Luke to hatred and anger. But thank goodness Yoda's fears were avoided. Luke remained strong and survived the encounter. Yoda just didn't want Luke taking the risk, considering he still had much to learn. [/B]


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Maybe, or maybe not. Anakin has been a Jedi Padawan for 10 years. What if Obi-Wan and him in 10 years have never once been a bodyguard for someone. Its no longer arrogant assumption. It is now a statement of fact. If Jedi are never used as bodyguard then it does raise an eyebrow when they are suddenly used in that role. *




That's the role they were in during most of TPM.  "We are here to protect you..." etc.  Even Qui-Gon, who was known for going beyond the mandate of the Council, held the line then.


----------



## Eosin the Red (May 30, 2002)

> Personally, I thought Qui-Gon Jinn was the Jedi who really had things right. He always put people ahead of the rules, which is why he was on the outs with the Council.




I think Qui-Gon was used to show us what Jedi should be - a foil if you will. I think he was the embodiment of Jedi ideals. Others followed the rules strait into the abyss.

At some level I believe that the Jedi we know well all serve to show us different aspects of the force.


Yoda - The wise master, made more so by his culpability for the fall of the Jedi.

Mace - The rightious warrior.

Obi-Wan -- The man who followed the rules, because nobody else was.

Qui-Gong - listens only to the force, more elemental. 


Another thought about the Jedi children. 1,000 generations ago several infants did not up and leave their parents so they could form the order. THe order was formed by adults who had studied the force. Somewhere along the lines people knew their parents and it did not destroy the order? Why change?

Possessive relationships are the bane of the Jedi especially marriage (which BTW is an institue dedicated to the orderly disburcement of property, not love). 

Tradition has clouded the minds and history of the jedi. Sure, love is dangerous but you can not face fear, anger, & hate with emptiness. It doesn't work. Vader was lost. His son who had FAITH in his father faced, the darkness alone. His HOPE that there was still goodness in the Sith Lord allowed him to confront his deepest fears. The LOVE of the last Jedi redeemed Vader. 



Several folks have made some excellent observation BTW.


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## Ristamar (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *This does lead to the fact that through the force Yoda knew DArth Vader was on Bespin and did nothing to warn him. Luke may have changed his actions if Yoda had simply said:
> 
> "Go you should not, the slayer of all the Jedi is at Bespin. Against Darth Vader no chance you will have at this time." *




No...  You're reaching here.  Both Luke and Yoda obviously knew it was a trap, one likely set by Vader.  Just before Luke left Dagobah, Obi-Wan clearly warned Luke that if he chose to face Vader, he'd have to do it alone, for he could not interfere.  A moment later, Yoda stated, "Strong is Vader, mind what you have learned!"  Seems to be a pretty blatant warning to me from both Yoda AND Obi-Wan.

As for faulting Obi-Wan for his admonishment of Anakin...  well, I disagree on that issue, as well.  Anakin was publically disobedient and disrespectful toward his Master.  At least Obi-Wan kept his criticisms of Qui-Gonn private after Qui-Gonn chose to go against the councel's wishes.  I'd elaborate further, but I have some things to attend to, so I'll bow out of the discussion for the time being.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

Not really. They were sent to discover the Sith. The Jedi were using Amidala as little better than bait. 



			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's the role they were in during most of TPM.  "We are here to protect you..." etc.  Even Qui-Gon, who was known for going beyond the mandate of the Council, held the line then. *


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

Really? We know that it was a trap just becuase Han says they never asked him any questions, they just tortured him. So it is obvious for us. How though could Luke have known this? Leia and Han are probably #1 and #2 on the most wanted list of the Empire. So catching them is quite a goal unto itself.

You are right about knowing that Vader was there. I forgot about the last minute message.

How was he disrepectful? Not enough bowing and scraping for you? He was asked a question (sort of) and gave a reasoned responce that using Jedi for this job was overkill. Obi-Wan did not really diasgree either since when he found out later that Anakin and Padme were using her as bait he did nothing to stop it.

You know Jedi are not too quick either. If either of them had been really smart they would have known the plan was intended to fail. If you can fly a droid right to the window and drop in to killer bugs then you could have just as easily loaded the droid with a bomb and blown Amidala up. Then it wouldnt matter if there were Jedi around or not.

The use of LIVING bugs to kill her made it a given that a Jedi would sense them and stop the attack. 





			
				Ristamar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No...  You're reaching here.  Both Luke and Yoda obviously knew it was a trap, one likely set by Vader.  Just before Luke left Dagobah, Obi-Wan clearly warned Luke that if he chose to face Vader, he'd have to do it alone, for he could not interfere.  A moment later, Yoda stated, "Strong is Vader, mind what you have learned!"  Seems to be a pretty blatant warning to me from both Yoda AND Obi-Wan.
> 
> As for faulting Obi-Wan for his admonishment of Anakin...  well, I disagree on that issue, as well.  Anakin was publically disobedient and disrespectful toward his Master.  At least Obi-Wan kept his criticisms of Qui-Gonn private after Qui-Gonn chose to go against the councel's wishes.  I'd elaborate further, but I have some things to attend to, so I'll bow out of the discussion for the time being. *


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> *Yoda - The wise master, made more so by his culpability for the fall of the Jedi.
> Mace - The rightious warrior.
> Obi-Wan -- The man who followed the rules, because nobody else was.
> Qui-Gon - listens only to the force, more elemental. *




I think that Mace will also come to embody the arrogance that helped lead to the downfall of the Jedi.  He is a great warrior, but unlike Yoda, it is not tempered by wisdom.  I think Yoda is already beginning to see where things are headed, but I think it will take Mace by surprise. 



> *Another thought about the Jedi children. 1,000 generations ago several infants did not up and leave their parents so they could form the order. THe order was formed by adults who had studied the force. Somewhere along the lines people knew their parents and it did not destroy the order? Why change?*




The Sith.  I imagine the Sith were the reason they changed it.  Lucas has said that the first Sith was a fallen Jedi.  I imagine he was a lot like Anakin: an idealist, somewhat naive, who lost what he loved the most.  Like Anakin, his life had been given meaning by the Force, so he embraced the same idea that Anakin did, "If I had been POWERFUL enough in the Force, I could have prevented this."  So, driven to seek personal power, this Sith would have corrupted others.  This led to the war between the Jedi and Sith that all the books talk about.  In the wake of that war, surveying the destruction caused, ultimately, by the selfishness of ONE Jedi, they would have begun to weed out causes of selfishness.  This would expand over time, to weeding out attachments, and even a sense of self.  A good idea carried perhaps a bit too far.  They divested themselves of passions and attachments, and in doing so, isolated themselves too much.



> *Possessive relationships are the bane of the Jedi especially marriage (which BTW is an institue dedicated to the orderly disburcement of property, not love). *




Originally, perhaps, but the troubadours changed that in Western culture.  And if you watched the romantic scenes in AotC, I think it's clear Lucas was proceeding from that tradition.



> *Tradition has clouded the minds and history of the jedi. Sure, love is dangerous but you can not face fear, anger, & hate with emptiness. It doesn't work. Vader was lost. His son who had FAITH in his father faced, the darkness alone. His HOPE that there was still goodness in the Sith Lord allowed him to confront his deepest fears. The LOVE of the last Jedi redeemed Vader. *




Agreed.  Ultimately, Anakin balanced the Force by creating one Jedi who was doing the right thing, his son.  Qui-Gon Jinn talked about the Will of the Force, and there's a great deal of talk throughout the series of Destiny, that those who can feel the Force have things they are MEANT to do.  I think the Will of the Force has a notion of how it SHOULD be used and that it created Anakin to bring the users of the Force back in line, not only by killing the last Sith Lord, but also by cleansing the Jedi.  The Sith are an abberation.  The Jedi are guided by the Force.  The Sith twist the Force to their purposes.  They must be removed to bring balance.  But the Jedi, too, are not truly following the Will of the Force.  They are more interested in their rules and codes than in trusting to the Force.  I think Yoda and Obi-Wan will come to realize that Qui-Gon was the one who had it right.  Remember when Obi-Wan was instructing Luke in ANH?  "You must let go your conscious self and trust your instincts."  "Stretch out with your _feelings_."  "Let go."  I have a hard time with the rules-conscious Obi-Wan of the first two movies being so able to let go of intellect.  Those sound more like things Qui-Gon would say.  Did say, in fact, to Anakin, "Feel.  Don't think.  Use your instincts."

And Anakin had it right when he said that compassion is essential to a Jedi.  What's so compassionate about locking yourself up in a Temple and acting as diplomats and political advisors?  The Jedi should be using their skills and powers for the benefit of all life, no matter the scale of the cause.

Sorry about the book... I get a little verbose sometimes...


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *How was he disrepectful? Not enough bowing and scraping for you? He was asked a question (sort of) and gave a reasoned responce that using Jedi for this job was overkill. Obi-Wan did not really diasgree either since when he found out later that Anakin and Padme were using her as bait he did nothing to stop it.*




Yes, but Anakin picked a really BAD time to contradict his Master.  He went over Obi-Wan's head in public, right after Obi-Wan had just stated their reasons for being there.  It would have been much more appropriate to wait until they were alone to argue the specifics of their mandate.  And when Obi-Wan told him to back down, he should have done it.  Pushing the issue made them BOTH look bad, and led to Obi-Wan's having to shut him up with the "You WILL learn your place" line, which, I agree was a bit much in public, but Anakin deserved it for jumping so far OUT of his place.


----------



## Ristamar (May 30, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *Yes, but Anakin picked a really BAD time to contradict his Master.  He went over Obi-Wan's head in public, right after Obi-Wan had just stated their reasons for being there.  It would have been much more appropriate to wait until they were alone to argue the specifics of their mandate.  And when Obi-Wan told him to back down, he should have done it.  Pushing the issue made them BOTH look bad, and led to Obi-Wan's having to shut him up with the "You WILL learn your place" line, which, I agree was a bit much in public, but Anakin deserved it for jumping so far OUT of his place. *




Exactly...  I completely agree.  There's also the tone which Anakin used.  He merely could've suggested or discussed it in a more civil manner.  Instead, he sounded arrogant and headstrong, having a 'I don't care what you say, I'm right, you're wrong, and I'll do what I want" air about him.  Hardly the tone a student should take up against his Master.



> _Originally posted by DocMoriartty_
> *Really? We know that it was a trap just becuase Han says they never asked him any questions, they just tortured him. So it is obvious for us. How though could Luke have known this? Leia and Han are probably #1 and #2 on the most wanted list of the Empire. So catching them is quite a goal unto itself.*





Fairly simple answer here...

BEN: _It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer._

LUKE: _And that is why I have to go._


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

As I said before though, Anakin was completely correct. To think that two Jedi (when there are very few to go around) are to be wasted as rent a cops just because it will make some bimbo Senator happy is just stupid.

In fact I think Yoda senses this when it happens. Mace Windu is the one that immediatly says yes to the Chancellors plan.

Furthermore as soon as the Jedi realize a bounty hunter is involved Mace goes ahead and changes thei orders anyway.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *As I said before though, Anakin was completely correct. To think that two Jedi (when there are very few to go around) are to be wasted as rent a cops just because it will make some bimbo Senator happy is just stupid.
> 
> In fact I think Yoda senses this when it happens. Mace Windu is the one that immediatly says yes to the Chancellors plan.
> 
> Furthermore as soon as the Jedi realize a bounty hunter is involved Mace goes ahead and changes thei orders anyway. *




I'm not trying to be snarky here, but it sounds like you're arguing that those who are correct get to ignore the rules.  Either that or Anakin is picking up on the intent of Palpatine more so than the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan, which isn't exactly a good thing, either.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

Naw, Im just arguing that he was right. On top of the fact that Obi-Wan had a horrible idea of what a teacher is supposed to be.




			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm not trying to be snarky here, but it sounds like you're arguing that those who are correct get to ignore the rules.  Either that or Anakin is picking up on the intent of Palpatine more so than the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan, which isn't exactly a good thing, either. *


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

I fully admit to being Chaotic Good though. Being right is much more important than the law.


----------



## Ristamar (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *As I said before though, Anakin was completely correct. To think that two Jedi (when there are very few to go around) are to be wasted as rent a cops just because it will make some bimbo Senator happy is just stupid.*




You're underestimating her importance.  Amidala was one of the opposition leaders against the Military Creation Act.  The debate over creating an army for the Republic was nearing a vote, and the council obviously did not want the Republic going to war, preferring a more peaceful way to stop the Republic from being split.  They knew war would only destabilize and weaken the existing system, so it was most certainly within their interests to protect her.  Her safety was their primary and immediate concern.  Just because Anakin and Obi-Wan were not ordered to begin an immediate investigation does not mean others were not attempting to uncover the assassins, or that the council or senate was not planning an investigation.

And technically....   it was only _one_ Jedi.  Even Amidala knew that.  *wink*


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *I fully admit to being Chaotic Good though. Being right is much more important than the law. *




But how do you define "right"?  Law aside, isn't it more right for Anakin to follow the lead of his more experienced elder than to get pushy, even if his intuition leads him somewhere else?


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

I guess I don't see it as being that pushy. He gave a good reason though his tone was a bit off. 

Pushy would be saying they were going to do something cause darn it he said so.




			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But how do you define "right"?  Law aside, isn't it more right for Anakin to follow the lead of his more experienced elder than to get pushy, even if his intuition leads him somewhere else? *


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

This is another point that should have made the Jedi wonder. The Chancellor should not really be that big on protecting her. They are on different sides of the issue.

Amidala is completely against creating an army and using force. This means that in the end she must be willing to let the planets leave if there is no other choice.

On the other hand the Chancellors stance the whole time is the opposite. No matter what he refuses to let the planets leave. 

Kind words and  the same home planet aside why would the Chancellor order a Jedi reassigned when there are so few of them to a person who he would actually benefit from the death of?

As I said, the Jedi ask far too few questions. I think as a whole they are too used to using the force for all their answers. The Jedi remind of of a 15th level DnD party who suddenly have all their divination spells yanked away from them. They don't know how to be good old fashioned detectives.





			
				Ristamar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You're underestimating her importance.  Amidala was one of the opposition leaders against the Military Creation Act.  The debate over creating an army for the Republic was nearing a vote, and the council obviously did not want the Republic going to war, preferring a more peaceful way to stop the Republic from being split.  They knew war would only destabilize and weaken the existing system, so it was most certainly within their interests to protect her.  Her safety was their primary and immediate concern.  Just because Anakin and Obi-Wan were not ordered to begin an immediate investigation does not mean others were not attempting to uncover the assassins, or that the council or senate was not planning an investigation.
> 
> And technically....   it was only one Jedi.  Even Amidala knew that.  *wink* *


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *This is another point that should have made the Jedi wonder. The Chancellor should not really be that big on protecting her. They are on different sides of the issue.
> 
> Amidala is completely against creating an army and using force. This means that in the end she must be willing to let the planets leave if there is no other choice.
> 
> ...




Actually, his platform is that his NEGOTIATIONS would not fail.  He insisted that war was the last thing he wanted until it became clear that the Separatists were not merely breaking away, but building an army.  He's probably made great issue of their working together for the last ten years.  After all, a good back up plan in case she does die in one of the assasination attempts is having evidence show up that the Separatists were behind it, and being shocked and dismayed by it.  He could then push the Senate towards war using his "friend and colleague, Padme Amidala" as a martyr.  That's actually a lot more straightforward than what he DID do.  It may even have been the original plan, with the chance to throw Anakin into it merely a bonus that appeared when she refused to die.

Are warrior-monks supposed to be detectives?  We've got these guys wearing a lot of hats, don't we?  Mystics, warriors, monks, teachers, diviners, advisors, sages, marshalls, diplomats, bodyguards, detectives, and military leaders.  Did I miss anything?


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

No. I am pretty sure the attacks were supposed to fail. 

1. The Chancellor would know she uses doubles. Why not just use  abig enough bomb to take the entire landing platform out?

2. Why use the bugs? Those are dumb and being living creatures are catchable by the Jedi. If I flying droid can get that close to the window then just load it with a big bomb and blow her to bits.




			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, his platform is that his NEGOTIATIONS would not fail.  He insisted that war was the last thing he wanted until it became clear that the Separatists were not merely breaking away, but building an army.  He's probably made great issue of their working together for the last ten years.  After all, a good back up plan in case she does die in one of the assasination attempts is having evidence show up that the Separatists were behind it, and being shocked and dismayed by it.  He could then push the Senate towards war using his "friend and colleague, Padme Amidala" as a martyr.  That's actually a lot more straightforward than what he DID do.  It may even have been the original plan, with the chance to throw Anakin into it merely a bonus that appeared when she refused to die.
> 
> Are warrior-monks supposed to be detectives?  We've got these guys wearing a lot of hats, don't we?  Mystics, warriors, monks, teachers, diviners, advisors, sages, marshalls, diplomats, bodyguards, detectives, and military leaders.  Did I miss anything? *


----------



## Ristamar (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *This is another point that should have made the Jedi wonder. The Chancellor should not really be that big on protecting her. They are on different sides of the issue.
> 
> Amidala is completely against creating an army and using force. This means that in the end she must be willing to let the planets leave if there is no other choice.
> 
> ...




I think you're missing the big picture.

First of all (as Canis pointed out), Palpatine did not say he would never let the systems leave, no matter what the cost (though I won't deny that he considered war an option).  In fact, quite a few systems had already left the Republic.  They were trying to prevent MORE systems from leaving...   the separatist movement was spreading like wildfire.  To keep the Republic intact, it was vital to assuage the fears of the edgy systems threatening to leave, as well as bring those that already left back into the fold.  Otherwise the Republic would collapse because everyone will have abandoned it.

Palpatine didn't want a civil war (at least, it was not conveyed through his non-Sith persona, though, of course, he REALLY did want it).  

  -- "I will not allow this Republic to be split in two.  My _negotiations_ will NOT fail."

As for why he would assign Jedi to protect Amidala...   Sidious can peer into the future, just as the Jedi can (in fact, in the d20 RPG, it states how he can read the future like a book, and speaks of how he's basically following it like how one might follow a set of instructions).  He knows certain steps must be taken to bring about a chain of events.  He obviously knew about Anakin's turmoil and instability and potential power, and he knew how to feed the young boy's ego and arrogance while gaining his trust.  He also knew Anakain was Obi-Wan's apprentice, which is why he probably suggested Obi-wan for the assignment.  He has likely forseen Anakin's fall to the Dark Side and his role in the extermination of the Jedi.

And all the while, to others it seems as if Palpatine is merely trying protect the dear senator (though, I agree, Yoda did seem to be suspicious of his underlying motivations).


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 30, 2002)

If Yoda was a normal person in that scene he would have listened to the Chancellor say he couldnt bear to see Amidala hurt. The Yoda would have looked right at him and said, "oh puuhhhleaaassseee!"





			
				Ristamar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> (though, I agree, Yoda did seem to be suspicious of his underlying motivations). *


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 30, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *No. I am pretty sure the attacks were supposed to fail.
> 
> 1. The Chancellor would know she uses doubles. Why not just use  abig enough bomb to take the entire landing platform out?
> *




I don't know about the bugs, other than that would be really boring for the purpose of the movie.  But you're attributing a great deal of micromanagement to Palpatine, aren't you?  Wouldn't it be more like, "Hey, Lord Tyranus, hire somebody to whack this Amidala chick."  Besides, when did she ever reveal to Palpatine that she uses doubles?  And it's not as if he hasn't underestimated her before...


----------



## Black Omega (May 31, 2002)

It's hardly a stretch to assume that by ten years after TPM some people know she uses doubles all the time.  She revealed it to the Gungans(sp) and they don't exactly seem good at keeping secrets.  And Palpatine is trusted and was the Senator was Naboo.  I'd be more surprised if he didn't know.

And let's give Palpy some props here.  I'm sure he had a plan either way.  If the assassinations fail, then the events from the movie get him what he wanted.  If Amidala gets killed, then the lethal threat of the separatists is revealed, the Jedi pursue the investigation, find the clone armor and the conspiracy that creates the droid army.  Palpy, in sorrowful memory of his dear friend Sen Amidala, creates the army of the republic after assuming emergency power.  Either way, it's all good for Darth Sidious.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 31, 2002)

Couple small problems. If the first bomb worked then there is little to zero chance of tracing anything back to the Cloner Planet. This means the clone army stays in the background which is a problem. Sidious needs the Jedi to find that planet and in effect claim the army.

If the bugs work there might be a chance of tracking them back. They are a rather exotic weapon to be sure. So maybe the bomb was supposed to fail and the bugs were a maybe weapon that would have started things down the right path.





			
				Black Omega said:
			
		

> *It's hardly a stretch to assume that by ten years after TPM some people know she uses doubles all the time.  She revealed it to the Gungans(sp) and they don't exactly seem good at keeping secrets.  And Palpatine is trusted and was the Senator was Naboo.  I'd be more surprised if he didn't know.
> 
> And let's give Palpy some props here.  I'm sure he had a plan either way.  If the assassinations fail, then the events from the movie get him what he wanted.  If Amidala gets killed, then the lethal threat of the separatists is revealed, the Jedi pursue the investigation, find the clone armor and the conspiracy that creates the droid army.  Palpy, in sorrowful memory of his dear friend Sen Amidala, creates the army of the republic after assuming emergency power.  Either way, it's all good for Darth Sidious. *


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 31, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Couple small problems. If the first bomb worked then there is little to zero chance of tracing anything back to the Cloner Planet. This means the clone army stays in the background which is a problem. Sidious needs the Jedi to find that planet and in effect claim the army. *




Of course, seeing as he had all that information already, he could have arranged a series of leaks that would have eventually led the right people to the right places.  And he would have had better control over the time frame.  

I really think Sidious is the type who plans for all contingencies.  He's got a solid framework, and he's poised to take advantage of the little accidents that occur here and there.  In a way, that's more impressive than assuming he had everything planned down to the molecule, AND it makes it easier to backtrack and cover his trail when he needs to (like in TPM.  He lost his apprentice and the trade federation, but 10 years later he's pulling the federation's strings again, just through a proxy)


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 31, 2002)

I still think he planned for the attacks to fail. They were just too poorly executed and designed.

Also why would Fett use a traceable dart to kill the changling. He could have used his rocket or his blaster and probably killed one or both Jedi at the same time he took the Changling out.

He was leading the Jedi along on a dog and pony show on purpose.




			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Of course, seeing as he had all that information already, he could have arranged a series of leaks that would have eventually led the right people to the right places.  And he would have had better control over the time frame.
> 
> I really think Sidious is the type who plans for all contingencies.  He's got a solid framework, and he's poised to take advantage of the little accidents that occur here and there.  In a way, that's more impressive than assuming he had everything planned down to the molecule, AND it makes it easier to backtrack and cover his trail when he needs to (like in TPM.  He lost his apprentice and the trade federation, but 10 years later he's pulling the federation's strings again, just through a proxy) *


----------



## Rel (May 31, 2002)

The following is pure speculation.

First, maybe Palpatine really wanted Amidala dead but not with the bomb at the landing platform.  That bomb would give him an excuse to assign some Jedis to protect her.  When she died later from the second attack (I think the bugs were simply done for purposes of making the movie more exciting.  But explosives were used in the first attack and therefore doing something different the second time was a good tactical move.) it would be a major blow to those opposed to the creation of an Army of the Republic.  Furthermore, it would discredit the Jedis who were protecting her and possibly hasten Anakin on his journey to the Dark Side.

I'll posit that if the Jedi never discovered the existence of the clone army that it would have been just fine with Palpatine.  When the droid army started attacking the Republic, two things would instantly happen.  First, the Jedi (being the only defense forces the Republic had) would rush to try and fend them off.  We already saw that they would have been on the losing end of that battle.

The second thing would be that the Senate would vote for Palpatine to defend the Republic by any means necessary.  Once most of the Jedi were dead trying to defend against the droid army, Palpatine could go and retrieve his clone army and rescue the Republic from its plight.  That is the kind of thing that gets one voted Emperor for life.

The best part of this whole scenario is that with Palpatine holding the strings on both armies, he can orchestrate the war for maximum dramatic effect.  He can have the droid army attack targets important to the Jedi in order to bring them to battle where they can be destroyed.  If too many systems start thinking that hope is lost and that they should surrender to the Seperatists, no problem.  Just stage a dramatic loss by the droid army.

Frankly, the whole plan seems pretty elegant and low risk.

Looked at from this perspective (and again, this is just brainstorming on my part), things didn't go great for Palpatine in Ep II.  Yeah, he got the clone army that he wanted.  But he didn't get to use the droid army as an anvil to smash the Jedi against.  Because Obi-Wan not only discovered his clone army, but also his droid army, the Jedi actually swiped the "clone card" from Palpatines hand and played it sooner than he would have liked.

Maybe I'm wrong about all of this.  But it would explain that Palpatine wasn't planning on sheer serendipity in order to eventually bring his clone army into play.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 31, 2002)

Interesting theory. I would mention though that the plan worked better in the movie than your plan did.

1. Lots of Jedi were actually killed including several off the council.

2. Your plan would still require Palpatine to explain where he suddenly got a clone army that took a decade to create.

By things going this way he got the Jedi to find the army and the cover of a long dead jedi ordering the army held up. so now when someone asks questions everyone gets to point at the Jedi.

This is another bonus. Now the average citizen might be a bit worried. Why are the Jedi ordering their own private army? Also where are they getting the money to order their own private army? Maybe we should do something about these elitest Jedi who spend our money like this and seem to have their own agenda. Maybe we are all better off if there are not so many Jedi around. All this trouble lately has Jedi right smack in the middle of it. 

Its enough to drive Joe Public on Coruscant crazy.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 31, 2002)

Rel said:
			
		

> *.....Maybe I'm wrong about all of this.  But it would explain that Palpatine wasn't planning on sheer serendipity in order to eventually bring his clone army into play. *




Exactly.  He just took advantage of the situation to move his plan forward a little early.  I think it's clear that not everthing had come together yet.  Dooku was still concluding negotiations with a number of groups and systems.  The Trade Federation, which is clearly necessary to the Separatists' cause, was still on the fence.  They, in fact, are what convinced me that the assasination was intended to work.



			
				DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *By things going this way he got the Jedi to find the army and the cover of a long dead jedi ordering the army held up. so now when someone asks questions everyone gets to point at the Jedi.
> 
> This is another bonus. Now the average citizen might be a bit worried. Why are the Jedi ordering their own private army? Also where are they getting the money to order their own private army? Maybe we should do something about these elitest Jedi who spend our money like this and seem to have their own agenda. Maybe we are all better off if there are not so many Jedi around. All this trouble lately has Jedi right smack in the middle of it.*




This would have worked just as well, and probably better, if Palpatine had been the one to discover the "treachery" of the Jedi.  He could have publicly discredited them himself, and then legally assumed control of "their" army in order to defend the Republic.  Then he would no longer have to work around the Jedi to use the clones.  If anything, the Jedi got a stay of execution, so to speak, by finding the clones themselves.


----------



## Rel (May 31, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Interesting theory. I would mention though that the plan worked better in the movie than your plan did.
> 
> 1. Lots of Jedi were actually killed including several off the council.*




Well, it depends on what you mean by "lots".  It looked to me like maybe 20-30 Jedi got killed at the most.  Imagine what would have happened if Yoda hadn't shown up with that clone army.



> *2. Your plan would still require Palpatine to explain where he suddenly got a clone army that took a decade to create.*




Well, that is true.  But if my pants were on fire and you ran into my office and doused it with a bucket of maple syrup, my first comment would not be, "Hey Doc, where'd you get that maple syrup?"  It would be, "Thanks!"

My point is that the people would be too busy being glad they had the army to be worried about where they got the army.  And besides, the crowd most likely to ask uncomfortable questions would be the Jedi.  And as I pointed out, by the time the clone army came into play, most of them would be dead and the rest would be scattered and disorganized.

At that point, if Palpatine wanted to whip out the "The Jedi placed the order for the army a while back" story, he could and with little opposition.  Also, considering that he has a strong likelyhood of being a repeat customer, he could get the Kaminoans to back him with whatever story he chose.

Again, people are willing to overlook quite a bit when they are fat and happy (as opposed to being conscripted to form an emergency Army of the Republic).




> *By things going this way he got the Jedi to find the army and the cover of a long dead jedi ordering the army held up. so now when someone asks questions everyone gets to point at the Jedi.
> 
> This is another bonus. Now the average citizen might be a bit worried. Why are the Jedi ordering their own private army? Also where are they getting the money to order their own private army? Maybe we should do something about these elitest Jedi who spend our money like this and seem to have their own agenda. Maybe we are all better off if there are not so many Jedi around. All this trouble lately has Jedi right smack in the middle of it.
> 
> Its enough to drive Joe Public on Coruscant crazy. *


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 31, 2002)

If that is the case then Palpatine really hired some incompetent assasins. They used poor methods that did not work and left easy to trace evidence back to find them.


----------



## Rel (May 31, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *If that is the case then Palpatine really hired some incompetent assasins. They used poor methods that did not work and left easy to trace evidence back to find them. *




Well, frankly, I'm willing to buy it rather easier than I could buy what lousy shots the Stormtroopers were in the OT.  And I buy it for the same reason:  If the bad guys were as competent as they perhaps could have been, there would be no movie.

I mean sure, it has an element of "You are about to die Mr. Bond, so I shall reveal my whole plan to you instead of simply shoot you in the head three times".  But so do a lot of movies that I like.  I'm willing to overlook it for the story.

And as far as their methods go, they are having to come up with these assassination plots in a hurry.  Maybe they couldn't use more explosives at the platform because obtaining more on short notice would have attracted attention.  Maybe they couldn't use more explosives because a larger quantity would have set off some kind of detectors.  I dunno.

With regards to the traceability issue, I totally agree that Zam Wessel should not have had the droid return to her.  But perhaps she had less experience with Jedi and figured that nobody was crazy enough to jump out a 300 story building and ride the droid back.  Once the droid was close enough to for her to see Obi-Wan aboard, she figured that she'd been spotted and had to deal with it.

The dart that Fett used to kill her was perhaps unwise but if Obi-Wan hadn't known the greasy spoon cook, they might never have traced the thing.  Especially since the Jedi archives had been tampered with.

Since I'm pretty sure that I've gone well beyond over analyzing this thing, I'll shut up now.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 31, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *If that is the case then Palpatine really hired some incompetent assasins. They used poor methods that did not work and left easy to trace evidence back to find them. *




Easy to trace?  I thought Obi-Wan actually got lucky.  He had to go to a well-traveled ex-prospector to figure out where the thing came from.

And the first assasination attempt killed the person they thought was the target.  And the worms would have succeeded against anything short of Jedi.  They walked in right under the sensors and the resourceful R2 completely missed them.  I doubt the bounty hunters were already aware that there were Jedi guarding her.  That info would have had to go from Palpatine to Dooku out in Geonosis and back to Jango in considerably less than a day.

I really think that Palpatine intended for her to die, but that he saw an opportunity to bring Anakin into the situation, maybe through Sith intuition (if the Jedi have it, why can't the Sith?)

And how about this...  She was the biggest opponent of the creation of an army.  If she dies while under the protection of the Jedi and then Palpatine's agents trace her killer back to Kamino, where the Jedi have apparently ordered production of an army without the approval of the Senate, that casts the Jedi in a VERY bad light.  They would be blamed for her death as well as the army, which would not have helped their public image any.  They would even appear to have a motive to kill her, as she's the leader of the group opposing the army.  With the leader of the Separatists being an "ex"- Jedi, it begins to look like the Jedi are the ones orchestrating the war.  Probably to increase their power over the government.

Palpy could also use this tactic to turn Anakin, as it would look like the Jedi betrayed Padme, which would turn Anakin inside out and backwards.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 31, 2002)

I call it easy to trace because it is physical evidence. A blaster bolt leaves no evidence behind and if you are a good enough shot to hit her in the neck with a dart then using your blaster should be a piece of cake.

As a side note, it was the Chancellor that put the Jedi there. As it stood Amidala did not want extra protection and only agreed when Obi-Wan was mentioned. So if he really wanted her dead he could have just given in to her wishes and not forced her to take extra security. She is very headstrong and no one would blame the Chancellor if she died because she refused more security.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 31, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *I call it easy to trace because it is physical evidence. A blaster bolt leaves no evidence behind and if you are a good enough shot to hit her in the neck with a dart then using your blaster should be a piece of cake.
> 
> As a side note, it was the Chancellor that put the Jedi there. As it stood Amidala did not want extra protection and only agreed when Obi-Wan was mentioned. So if he really wanted her dead he could have just given in to her wishes and not forced her to take extra security. She is very headstrong and no one would blame the Chancellor if she died because she refused more security. *




Yes, but if you follow my theory in my previous post, people would blame the Jedi.  AND it would give Palpy an excuse to "discover" the clone army, further discrediting the Jedi, and leaving him with this army in his hands that he could assume control of once the Separatists proved to be a threat.  Win-win for Palpatine.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 31, 2002)

All true, still makes the choice of the bugs as a assination weapon just plain stupid. As well as the returning droid.




			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yes, but if you follow my theory in my previous post, people would blame the Jedi.  AND it would give Palpy an excuse to "discover" the clone army, further discrediting the Jedi, and leaving him with this army in his hands that he could assume control of once the Separatists proved to be a threat.  Win-win for Palpatine. *


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 31, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *All true, still makes the choice of the bugs as a assination weapon just plain stupid. As well as the returning droid. *




Only if Zam and Jango KNEW Padme was under Jedi protection.

Plus, Zam is a bounty hunter, she would want to maximize profit, and that means reclaiming her (probably illegal and expensive) assasin droid if at all possible.


----------



## Rel (May 31, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *All true, still makes the choice of the bugs as a assination weapon just plain stupid.  *




Just plain stupid?  That particular assassination attempt failed by probably less than a second.  I'd be willing to agree that in hindsight, it might appear to be a sub-optimal choice given the circumstances.  But I can't call something that came so close to working "just plain stupid".

No offense, Doc, but has anybody ever told you that you come off as a bit contrarian?


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 31, 2002)

Remove the bugs and replace with a single thermal detonator. Boom one dead senator and it doesnt matter if the entire Jedi Council is in the next room.

In fact use the thermal detonator and there is a good chance that if the council is in the next room that they would be dead too.

As it stands two Jedi who were talking to each other were still able to sense the danger in enough time to stop it. In fact they sense the danger so clearly that Anakin and Obi-Wan didnt have to look for more bugs. They instantly knew that the two killed were the only two there.




			
				Rel said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Just plain stupid?  That particular assassination attempt failed by probably less than a second.  I'd be willing to agree that in hindsight, it might appear to be a sub-optimal choice given the circumstances.  But I can't call something that came so close to working "just plain stupid".
> 
> No offense, Doc, but has anybody ever told you that you come off as a bit contrarian?  *


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 31, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Remove the bugs and replace with a single thermal detonator. Boom one dead senator and it doesnt matter if the entire Jedi Council is in the next room.*




Personally, I think you're nit-picking.  The fact is the bugs came REALLY close, walking right by every part of the security except the senses of the Jedi.  This does not make them a bad weapon UNLESS the assasins knew that the Jedi were there AND knew EXACTLY how good their senses were, which I would guess is not necessarily common knowledge.

Besides, maybe Jango just likes to use unusual methods for taking people out.  "Thermal detonators and blasters are SO cliche.  Poisonous centipedes, however are totally IN this season."


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 31, 2002)

You don't get to be #1 by being cool unless you live in a Hong Kong action movie. You get to be #1 by doing what works in the most effective and straightforward method.

You also remain #1 by leaving behind as little evidence as possible.

Jango is supposed to be #1 yet breaks both rules. That does not make sense.




			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Personally, I think you're nit-picking.  The fact is the bugs came REALLY close, walking right by every part of the security except the senses of the Jedi.  This does not make them a bad weapon UNLESS the assasins knew that the Jedi were there AND knew EXACTLY how good their senses were, which I would guess is not necessarily common knowledge.
> 
> Besides, maybe Jango just likes to use unusual methods for taking people out.  "Thermal detonators and blasters are SO cliche.  Poisonous centipedes, however are totally IN this season." *


----------



## Rel (May 31, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Remove the bugs and replace with a single thermal detonator. Boom one dead senator and it doesnt matter if the entire Jedi Council is in the next room. *




Assuming that the assassin knew about the Jedi (as mentioned by Canis, word would have had to travel fast).  And assuming that a Senators apartment isn't protected against explosives by a force shield of some type.  And assuming that even if it wasn't before, a force shield might have been added since the earlier bombing attempt.  And assuming that explosives were not detectable by R-2 or some other sensing device.

Given that the assassin may not have known about the Jedi, perhaps the low-tech solution was thought to be the best solution.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 31, 2002)

If you are sure you can drop two bugs into the room the why not a thermal detonator. Whether or not the alarm goes off once the detonator is in the room it can go boom.

BTW, there was a force field in place. The flying droid neutralized it before it could cut the glass and let the bugs in.




			
				Rel said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Assuming that the assassin knew about the Jedi (as mentioned by Canis, word would have had to travel fast).  And assuming that a Senators apartment isn't protected against explosives by a force shield of some type.  And assuming that even if it wasn't before, a force shield might have been added since the earlier bombing attempt.  And assuming that explosives were not detectable by R-2 or some other sensing device.
> 
> Given that the assassin may not have known about the Jedi, perhaps the low-tech solution was thought to be the best solution. *


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 31, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *You don't get to be #1 by being cool unless you live in a Hong Kong action movie. You get to be #1 by doing what works in the most effective and straightforward method.
> 
> You also remain #1 by leaving behind as little evidence as possible.
> 
> Jango is supposed to be #1 yet breaks both rules. That does not make sense. *




As someone (Rel?) said before, "Success breeds complacency."

Maybe he always starts sword-fights with his left hand, too.


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## Eosin the Red (May 31, 2002)

*About the Bugs/Bombs*

I do not think it is too much of a leap to assume that the area around the senatorial compound would be frequently scanned by bomb seeking droids.  24-48 hours after someone attempted to bomb Padme, I bet if you had a bomb within 1,000 feet of her security would go bonkers.

We can do similar things today, why can't we assume that a second bomb couldn't get anywhere near her.

Zam/Jango may have been smarter than you give them credit for. I am also not sure that they knew she had Jedi guardian.


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## Lady Dragon (Jun 1, 2002)

I personally think its entirely possible that Palpatine couldn't care less weather Padme gets killed or not but they he needs the trade federation to enact his plan and that is their demand for their co-operation.


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## Lady Dragon (Jun 1, 2002)

An interesting topic I think is the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin. They had that mentor/student conversation in palpatines office.Also Anakin stated that he didn't trust politcians but that he thought that Palpatine was a good man. He told Padme that he thought One good wise man should run the republic.It wouldn't be that hard for Palpatine to convince the young man of that.

Personally I think that offscreen palpatine has been working to turn the boy for long time and that they had had many conversations like the one in his office.

Some people even think that Palpatine is his father,which may or may not be true but it certainly would explain the loyalty to that Vader had to the emporor.

It would also make the scene at the end of RoTJ where vader had to decide whether the emporor died or his son died he kept looking back and forth do I kill the emporor or doo I let him kill my son.what if it was really do I kill my father or let him kill my son.Quite a quandry


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## Black Omega (Jun 2, 2002)

Lady Dragon said:
			
		

> *An interesting topic I think is the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin. They had that mentor/student conversation in palpatines office.Also Anakin stated that he didn't trust politcians but that he thought that Palpatine was a good man. He told Padme that he thought One good wise man should run the republic.It wouldn't be that hard for Palpatine to convince the young man of that.*



In the novel more mention is made of how much of a mentor Anakin sees Palpatine as.  And Palpy certainly uses that to best advantage to influence Anakin in the wrong ways.  Bad choice on who to trust.


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## Atticus_of_Amber (Jun 2, 2002)

A couple of points:

1. Jango Fett is not necessarily the "Number One Assasin in the Galaxy". The Jedi (i.e. the Galactic Police) had never heard of him. He's clearly very good (he fought Obi-Wan to a standstill, though with some significant tactical advantages), but there's nothing to say he's the "best in the galaxy."

2. There are only a few thousand Jedi in the whole galaxy (the novelisation of AotC says 10,000 all up with only a few hundred in the Coruscant area). And the galaxy appears to be populated with thousands of industrialisied planets with, one supposes, Earth like populations or more. That's a galactic population of, say, at least  10 trillion (ten thousand million). Jedi are thus *very* rare. Most people have never encountered one. Most people dont know what they are capable of. The Jedi probably don't advertise their capabilities. In fact, their powers are probably so much a matter of shaddowy, contradictory legend  that many hard headed bounty hunter types may think it's all just PR.

3. The Jedi "danger sense" seems to be a little bit unreliable and also a little bit "ego-centric". The Force seems to warn *you* about dangers to *you* or someone you are emotionally commited to defending. An assasin entering the Senate building with a thermal detonator would wig out every Jedi in the area; but approaching with a knife to stab an anonymous senator in a crowded senate building might not register on even Yoda's Jedi "radar". Hence Obi-Wan and Anakin's inability to sense and stop the sabre dart that killed Zam. On the other hand, Obi-Wan and Anakin both had (different) reasons to care about Padme, thus they sensed the insectoids, though only at the last second...

4. If a bomb didn't work last time; dont try a bomb again, that's what security will be looking for. Something quiet and deadly and subtle is what you go for if the "Bid Bada Boom" approach has just failed. Moreover, in a crowded city a "messenger droid" is unlikley to trip security especially if all its containing is some primitive organisms or other smaller driods (depending on wheterh the centapedes were organis or mechanical)...


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## Holy Bovine (Jun 5, 2002)

Well, bot to beat a long dead and buried horse but I have to say that I finally saw AotC last night (my SO was in the dumps and we both decided that a movie was the answer - and AotC was the only thing we hadn't seen yet of the 'big' releases).

I loved it.

Let me repeat....

I *loved* it!! 



It was everything I could want in a Star Wars movie - I felt that giddy thrill I got when I first saw a Star Destroyer roll across the screen blasting at Liea's Rebel Cruiser.

Star Wars is back - in a huge way.

There were only two parts that I felt were weak (of course I have to point those out first  ).  The Padme-Anakin scene by the fireplace was way too heavy handed but the rest of their romance I found believable and just great diaolgue wise.

The other part I felt could have been punched up a bit was Padme's reaction to Anakin confessing to slaughtering all the Tuskens.  Way too unemotional IMO.

Other than that I was in awe.  Hayden C. did a great job with Anakin - he came across as a creepy, hot headed man who wanted what he wanted immediately.  It seems Obi Wan couldn't teach him patience.  The scene at the beinging when Obi Wan and Anakin enter the bar chasing Zam (sp?) and Obi Wan berates him repeatedly and all Anakin says is "Yes, master", and "I try master" really set the mood for me as to where Anakin's and Obi Wan's relationship stood.  Anakin's resentment and frustration was powerful and expertly put across in just those few simple words.

OF course I'm gushing way too much now but I am amazed that this movie was not better recieved - *this* is Star Wars in all its glory.

Welcome back George!


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