# CMG DMing Chat session archival thread



## Mark

What is the topic for the next CMG DMing Chat Session?

The topic we will explore Mon, Jan 13th 7pm central US will be *Magic Item Creation: Striking a Balance*

You can scroll down to see the topics from past sessions and check out the transcripts from those shows.

What are the CMG DMing Chat Sessions?

We, as a group, will be discussing many subjects having to do with preparing and running a game of D&D.  We get started around 7pm (central USA time) every other Monday night and will run all as long as the discussion is flowing.  They will be loosely moderated, open discussions and it always helps to have your rules books on hand.  These sessions are developed so that we all can learn from one another, share our experience and tackle issues as a group.  Please, join us no matter if you are new to DMing or a veteran.

How do you get there?

If you use an IRC client-

server: chat.psionics.net 
port: 6667 
channel: #CMG 

Alternately...

Psionics.net provides a java chat page for those without an IRC client:

http://www.psionics.net/chat/java/chat1.html 

Just replace 'guest' with your desired nickname and use the dropdown menu to select the #dnd3e channel (that's the EN World chat channel for those who might not know).

Once inside, type-

/join #CMG

_Should be a lot of interesting discussion by veteran DMs and those new to the experience.  Come join the fun!_

Here are the links to the DMing Chat Session transcripts housed in this thread.

Mon Oct 21, 2002 (Part One)
_In part one we were looking at some specific problems that DMs are handling and round table discussion of solutions._

Mon Oct 21, 2002 (Part Two)
_In part two, we took the time to fashion a short adventure as a group._

Mon Nov 4, 2002
_A discussion about introducing new material into an ongoing campaign._

Mon Nov 18, 2002
*Plot Hooks: Approaches Both Obvious and Subtle*
_A round table discussion about how to approach setting up plot hooks and how to adjust them for various groups._

Mon Dec 2, 2002
*Plots Beyond the Hooks: How Much to Prepare?*
_A round table discussion about how to prepare in advance of the session and some suggestions on links and ways to prepare for your games._

Mon, Dec 16, 2002
*DM Tools: Player Campaign Input*
_An inside look at the beginnings of a campaign being played online with DM Jonathan Brock (AKA Enrious)._


Here are the links to the CyberCon Seminar transcripts housed in this thread.

Fri Oct 25, 2002
_*NPCs: From the Inside, Out* - An examination of the inner motivations of fantasy/medieval NPCs; How to build them with plausible interests and plans._

Sat Oct 26, 2002
_*When PCs aren't the Center of the Universe* - A fantasy/medieval d20 game doesn't need to revolve completely around the PCs. In fact, your world can be more compelling if the PCs need to work their way into the world to have an impact!_

Sun Oct 27, 2002
_*Operation Left Turn: Plot Twists on the Fly* - Despite all planning, the players often find a way to move beyond your preparations. This is an examination of how to avoid strictly funneling the players to only what you have set up in advance._


What topics will be discussed in future CMG DMing Chat Sessions?

That's up to you!  Feel free to use this thread to suggest topics for discussion.  We'll collect them here and announce the topic(s) prior to the chat session (most often on that Monday.)  Sometimes when we have a special guest, we'll announce that in advance of the chat session to give people a bit more time to make arrangements to be present.


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## alsih2o

remind everyone what day


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## Mark

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *remind everyone what day  *




Added to the subject line.  Thanks!


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## Crothian

This sounds great Mark.  And yes a reminder posting or bump of this thread about an hour prior to the chat would be great.


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## Trevalon Moonleirion

Keep these discussions going for at least a month!  I can't make it until after this crazy fall play is over (November 3 is our last performance of The Curious Savage).  

Speaking of which... it's time for the shameless plug!  If anyone lives in the SW chicago 'burbs and is looking for some entertainment the first weekend of November, come on down to lovely Bolingbrook High School and watch our performances of _The Curious Savage_ a play about a jolly bunch of misfits in a sanitarium.  

/end shameless plug


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## Umbran

Okay, so we now know when the chat will be.  Perhaps we should have a slightly more narrowed focus of discussion?  Topics, anyone?


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## Buddha the DM

Any topics that you guys would like to discuss can be posted to the thread here. I will collect them and then pass them on to Mark.


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## Mark

Thanks, Buddha the DM!

For those who may not know, Buddha the DM (AKA Nichar from the chat channels) is one of the official moderators of CMG channel along with alsih2o!


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## alsih2o

can i assume this is a byob event?


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## Ralts Bloodthorne

*Topic Suggestion*

My suggestion is the discussion on using other forms of architechture and society than the same old Western European Middle Ages stuff we has seen done to death.
How to mix and match it, and make it seem reasonable and believable.


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## Buddha the DM

Sounds like a good idea. Consider it logged.


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## Crothian

I'd like to suggest talking about running a low magic campaign.


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## Buddha the DM

Another good idea.


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## Piratecat

I should be there! Sounds like fun.


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## Mark

Looking forward to having you there and hearing some of your insights on things, PC. 

Adventure hooks always seem to be tricky to handle.  I think we'll deal with that subject, too.


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## Wolf72

*EEK!*

be warned, Mark likes to put ya work ... 

not that it's a bad thing, but some of us can be a wee bit rusty or slow ... or manage to get themselves kicked out of the chat by flooding it  

next one is ...  4-11-02; 2000hrs eastern


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## Crothian

How was yesterday's session?  Anyone keep a log of it?  With the boards out I totally forgot about it and I'm kicking myself because I really wanted to be there.  Argh, I can't believe I forgot it.


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## Buttercup

I can't believe I forgot about this!  And to think I wasted the evening playing Diablo II.  Ah, well.  I should be able to come to the next one.


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## Fast Learner

It was good fun, and we put together a fun little encounter at the end. Not sure if there was a log.


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## Mark

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> *It was good fun, and we put together a fun little encounter at the end. Not sure if there was a log. *




Glad everyone had a good time.  I'm cleaning up the chat log, for brevity and clarity, but it is a huge task.  I should have it done later in the week (sometime) and will post it in this continuing thread. 

I'm also putting together the encounter(s) that were devised and hope to have those before the next session.


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## Mark

(Here's the first half of the CMing Chat Session transcript from Monday Night!)

Mon Oct 21 22:20:37 2002
(#CMG) Creative Mountain Games - Visit the CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/ 
CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!

(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)

Participating:
alsih2o
Baastet
chatdemon
CMG_Nichar
deBhaal
FastLearner
Hildulf
Mark_CMG
Piratecat
Umbran
Wolf72


Mark_CMG Welcome, everyone! Does everyone here run D&D games (at least sometimes)?

Wolf72 Been a while, grad school is in the way ... but, yes.

deBhaal On occasion ... I'm working on being a better DM.

Baastet I have once. Does that count? Or am I just here to be the token female? (winks)

deBhaal (laughs) Token female... (winks)

Hildulf Unfortunately, I run games almost exclusively.

(Baastet chuckles)

deBhaal I co-ran one the other day.

alsih2o My group rotates the DM.

Piratecat Yup.

Baastet I do co-run lot though.

deBhaal That was more of a power game thing though.

Wolf72 Ick, I'm jealous already.

deBhaal Fun, nonetheless.

Hildulf Me, too.

(FastLearner joins)

Mark_CMG Howdy, FastLearner. First on the agenda is a run down of what we will be doing tonight.

(CMG_Nichar joins)

Mark_CMG Welcome back, Nichar.

Baastet Hi, Nichar.

deBhaal Hello, Nich.

CMG_Nichar Hi...decided to try and give it a shot. (Not feeling well)

Mark_CMG We'll try to accomplish a few things.  Firstly, we'll make a list of troublesome DM topics.  We'll look at some specific problems that some of us are dealing with (allowing the group to feed us solutions) then we'll look at fashioning a short adventure.

Piratecat Works for me.

deBhaal OK.

CMG_Nichar Me, too.

Baastet Sounds interesting. (smiles)

FastLearner Great!

deBhaal Fun at least. (smiles)

Wolf72 OK.

Mark_CMG If I could ask alsih2o2o to cut and paste some of the topic ideas we come up with, please?

Wolf72 I got one. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Wolf?

alsih2o Sure, Mark.

Mark_CMG Wolf, please, go right ahead.  Thanks, alsih2o2o.

Wolf72 Um, it's kinda whiny, but ... dealing with players who also DM ... and forget they aren't DMing at the time.

Mark_CMG OK.  That's a real good one.

deBhaal (chuckles) I've got one of those ...

Piratecat And I'm guilty as charged. (frowns)

Mark_CMG Anyone else?  Just throw them out and we'll get a (longer) list (of topics) together.

deBhaal ...but he's new to 3E.

Baastet That is part of the reason I don't like to DM my group, Wolf. (winks)

deBhaal Overdoing XP is one ...

Wolf72 Well, giving ideas (to the DM) is okay, but direct challenges because of style is another thing.  (Then to Baas) Agreed, I only play if those guys are in the game now.

Mark_CMG XP, yes.  Tough to find the right formula for a group early on, eh?

Piratecat I'm having trouble getting my group into a dungeon crawl, as they're used to political games.

Wolf72 Oops.  Sorry, Mark, we'll discuss topics later (after finishing the list).

deBhaal Yeah ... especially an overpowered one ...

Mark_CMG No problem, Wolf.  PC, Yup.  Switching gears in a campaign from one style of gaming to another.

(deBhaal prefers dungeon crawls, but that's just a personal preference.

alsih2o So, changing gears?

Mark_CMG Perfect, alsih2o2o.

Hildulf I had a player that was DMing the game before I started DMing 3e... He is a DM, and a Rules Lawyer.  His challenges ended with, "Get in, sit down, hang on, and shut up". (smiles)

Wolf72 Would "Leveling fast" ... part of overdoing XP?

Mark_CMG I hear ya, Hildulf.  (to FastLearner) Any potential topics?

(Umbran joins)

Wolf72 Rules lawyer v. rules aide?

Baastet Does anyone else have trouble running a "3-D combat" like involving Air or water or inside gelatinous cubes battles?

deBhaal Items ... and right levels to give what powers at ...

(Wolf72 like's deBhaal's topic)

deBhaal (smiles)

FastLearner A sub-issue with players who are DMs is those players insisting their house rules should apply since they make the most sense.

deBhaal I'm a beginning DM, so I haven't figured this stuff out yet.

Mark_CMG House rules promoted by players?  Yup, good topic.

Baastet (to deBhaal)  So am I (winks).  I have 3 whole game sessions under my belt.

deBhaal Haven't had that problem yet, FastLearner ... in my group anyway. (laughs) (then to Baastet) That's more than me.

Mark_CMG Items, to give?  Yupper.

deBhaal Also, other powers. Gaining them and such.

Umbran How to choose what Prestige classes to use in a campaign.

alsih2o More specifically, deBhaal?

Mark_CMG Has everyone thrown an idea out there? (Everyone who has one in mind?)

Wolf72 High power and low power gaming, ideas for each?

FastLearner Matching challenges to a party's actual capabilities instead of a CR?

deBhaal A friend of mine has a mage at level 38 that can cast MM at will.

Mark_CMG Ah yes, PrCs, which to include?

deBhaal Gaining spell-like abilities, I guess is what I mean.

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner)  Yup.  Balancing for the players, and not so much the characters and their levels, right?

FastLearner Right.

Baastet Scaling adventures gives me problems.....

Mark_CMG I understand, deBhaal.

deBhaal Yeah.

Wolf72 Adding to Baastet's idea: scaling old 1E/2E adventures ...

Mark_CMG Scaling, tough to do, especially when you DM infrequently.

Baastet Yes, Mark. (chuckles)  Especially when you are not quite sure about CR's anyway.

deBhaal DMing people who don't know 3E rules ...but know 2E.

Piratecat I'm good at scaling.

Mark_CMG Baas, Yup. (laughs) (Then to deBhaal) That's a tough one, too.

deBhaal Sometimes.

(Wolf72 would add something to deBhaal's comment, but it's just me whining.) (smiles)

Mark_CMG OK.  Let's use the list that we have as a start, eh?

deBhaal At least he's a fast learner (the 2E player) .. and we have a complete newbie in the group, too.

Mark_CMG I think we have about a dozen topics.  Allow me give alsih2o2o a second to organize them, then let's tackle the first one.  "Players who also DM (and direct challenges to the DM)."  Wolf, this was your topic.  Give us an example of the problem, please.

deBhaal (chuckles)

Wolf72 Probably back to deBhaal's ...

deBhaal Wolf?

Wolf72 They don't want to listen, just do it they way they would have ... and instead of questioning it's challenging.

Mark_CMG Well, we mentioned "rules lawyer-ing vs. just giving some aid," right?

Wolf72 Si, senor.

Mark_CMG Is there a specific time that this happened where it really messed up a night's session?

Wolf72 Hoo boy ... 

Piratecat The best thing you can do when someone is challenging your authority as DM is to take them aside privately; challenging them in front of the other players just sets up a bad scene.

Wolf72 First 3e DMing experience ...

Mark_CMG One rule that just couldn't be agreed upon?

Piratecat I've found that asking them nicely to let you run the game usually works wonders.

FastLearner In our group of 6, five of us take turns DMing. When a couple of the DMs were new we certainly had a problem with them succumbing to players' rules interpretations, but this tends to happen with all new DMs.

Wolf72 No, I was right ... had almost to force them to look it up rather than rely on memory.

Baastet Pkitty, (chuckles), unless you're married to them ... (smiles)

Mark_CMG True, PC, that can work among good friends (and sometimes even at conventions, eh?).

Piratecat Nah, Baastet, my wife slaps me down all the time.  (smiles)

FastLearner I've not played much at cons... I'd guess it's a bigger problem there?

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) True, also (regarding the first thing you said about newer DMs).

Wolf72 I would ask, "We'll look it up?" ... response: "NO, I KNOW I'm right!"

Mark_CMG I think at conventions a DM has a little more pull, if he knows the rules at least fairly well.

Umbran (to Wolf72) Which backfires if you're not correct...

Piratecat We have a loosely enforced house rule: if you plan to cast a spell or use an obscure rule, have the book open when it's your turn.  Saves lots of time.

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) Ever have many problems with players questioning your calls (at conventions)?

Wolf72 True, but I don't mind giving in if the rules say otherwise ... my players would complain more (if I didn't give in).

Piratecat Very seldom, Mark. I had a rules lawyer at GenCon in one game....

Mark_CMG Do tell... (smiles)

Piratecat I had to thank him and remind him that I do know the rules.  He backed right down.  For some folks, it's a dominance battle.

Wolf72 Yup.  (Regarding "Attacking over creature of the same size" (a player) refused to believe that someone 5'5" provided cover in front of someone over 6'5".  I tried to explain, in 3E Medium-sized is Medium-sized (the situation had to do with reach weapon).

Piratecat I have only had to really deal with this maybe three times in 300+ convention games.  Lucky.

alsih2o Sounds lucky, indeed.

Mark_CMG I had a similar problem just last GenCon.

Wolf72 (In response, I) would get back: "Well in *my* game"...

Mark_CMG An entire group signed up for one of my sessions (as a team) and the DM of their home group gave me a bit of trouble over whether or not an intelligent NPC should be able to figure out that while he was invisible, there was someone tying off the end of a rope.  (I had to put my foot down.)  I had been running the game so that everyone could still stay at the table even if they  weren't together, provided that they kept player and character knowledge separate.  But when this one fellow decided to argue every rule, even though I had been giving the group that leeway, I asked him to come to another table.  I kept them separate for about fifteen minutes, and it seemed to do the trick.

Piratecat Part of it is actually knowing the rules. If I'm not sure, I have someone look it up for me.  Wolf, house rules don't travel. Period.  (smiles)

Wolf72 PC, I do that but I kept getting, "I know the rule."  Gotta 'member that one. (smiles)

Piratecat You know what might work?...

Wolf72 I guess my "prove it" statement was a bit harsh though

Piratecat Say, "Yes, you do, but as DM I need to see it myself in order to remember it."  Place the onus on you, and they'll likely respond.

Mark_CMG That's a good way to do it.

Wolf72 I think after the 3rd or 4th challenge though, I begin to fail my diplomacy checks. (frowns)

Piratecat KidCthulhu tells me that when I get rules lawyer-y.  It settles me back down.  (grins)

deBhaal I don't have any rules lawyer-ing but that maybe because I'm the most fluent with the 3E rules in my games ..

Wolf72 It just seemed like for most of my players it was a challenge to try to beat the DM (me) rather than play the game

Piratecat The truth is, the DM is in charge, and if folks want to play they should be polite and follow house rules. If a house rule is "show me the rule in the rulebook", they will hopefully get used to it.

(Wolf72 thinks of another problem, "when players don't travel with the DM and don't let the DM know if they're  going to show up")

Piratecat And remember!  Reward good behavior. Subtly discourage bad behavior.  Thank people who do it properly.

FastLearner I'm fortunate to have players (who are DMs) who don't see it as player vs. DM right now. In previous years I've worked to point out that the challenge is *inside* the game world, not *outside*.

Baastet (to Piratecat) What do you do to discourage bad behavior?

Wolf72 (to Piratecat) I don't mean to be the nay sayer but it reminds of my students.  ("How come they get all the *good stuff*?", "Why are you always yelling at me?"...)

Mark_CMG What about the new player, new to your game but not to the rules, that wants to introduce House Rules from other games to your table?

Piratecat Tone of voice, mostly.  Subtle stuff.  (to Mark) I'd deal with that away from the table.

FastLearner Yup, tone of voice, body language, and attention paying seem to work best.

Piratecat That discussion happens over lunch, not during the game.

Mark_CMG I see, "Ask then to hold off until between sessions."

Wolf72 Good one. (Wolf72 is liking this session.)

Mark_CMG But even if it is away from the table, how do you handle requests that may seem odd or unreasonable to you?

Piratecat I'd say, "No," but I'd try to keep an open mind.

Umbran Depends.  Is it a request, or a demand?

alsih2o It seems that recalling what belongs in-session and who is the DM. are both important.

Mark_CMG Usually a request. (smiles)

Piratecat 3E needs so few house rules, it'd have to be something fairly spectacular.

CMG_Nichar Oh?

Umbran Requests can be dealt with via reason - inform the player of why you'd prefer not to use the rule.  Demands are a bit more sticky.

deBhaal What about homemade PrCs and such?

Mark_CMG I think it is a good idea to let them know just why it would maybe upset the balance of your particular game.  (to UMB) Yup. (smiles) (the to deBhaal) Has that come up for you?

deBhaal ...or even redo's of present PrCs?

FastLearner One tricky thing about DMing in general is that lots and lots of "rules" aren't found in any books, even with 3e. Just as in Monopoly it doesn't say that you can't postpone your turn for 3 days but we all know that there's an implicit rule that you must take your turn in a reasonable time.  So, too, are there a bunch of rules in RPGing that you sometimes have to actually *teach* with certain players.

Wolf72 I had a player that asked my advice ... and he came up with a darn good PrC, I was just helping edit

Mark_CMG Can you give us an example?

deBhaal Not quite, but might soon.

Piratecat (to deBhaal) I'd have to dissect it with a critical eye, and would only allow it with the understanding that we may tweak it if problems arise.

Baastet (to deBhaal) Well you always have the final say in homemade PrC's .. but I would make sure it is balanced.. Which is my chant with all things .. (winks) "Is it balanced .. Is it fair...? "

deBhaal Well, I altered the Paladin class a bit for a friend, because that was the closest to his character concept, but he wasn't the Lawful Good type guy.

Piratecat I allow occasional redo of PCs after new source books come out.

FastLearner Including the most important implicit rule: The DM is trying to make the game fun for everyone, so you need to play along.  This applies to PrCs and everything else, I believe.

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) True.

deBhaal Yes.

Mark_CMG (to deBhall) How did you alter it?

Wolf72 Me? ... I did that for someone who was thinking of a duelist type ... got far, then the dragon mag came out.

alsih2o It can also help to point out that "this" campaign may not be the best to playtest a new concept.

deBhaal Dropped some of the special abilities, removed Heavy armor proficiency, and altered the spell list.

Mark_CMG (to alsih2o2o) Yup, that can be a reasonable way to handle it.

deBhaal Gave him a +(bonus) against undead.

Wolf72 (laughs) ...or 'remember when I said low power, and low magic?'  I kinda want to stay with it, but let's start work on another campaign with those ideas?

Mark_CMG So you wanted to help him gear the PC as an Undead hunter of sorts?

deBhaal Allowed him to be Neutral Good.  (to Mark_CMG)  Yes.

FastLearner Indeed, and while RPGing is certainly shared storytelling, the DM must still decide the "reality" of this campaign.  If a particular PrC simply doesn't exist in your world, the player simply can't get the training or follow the path.

Baastet (to deBhaal) One of the best things with one of my old GM's was that he worked with me to advance my character, allowing me to multiclass my monk into a Paladin.  It took a lot of work through roleplaying but I could see a tangible reward for all the great roleplaying we had done over the 8 months and it stuck with me.

FastLearner (to Baas) Good point.

deBhaal Yeah. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Baastet)  Excellent.  (to deBhaal) Did the idea of an Undead hunter fit your game, or did you have to adjust the game to fit what the player wanted to play?

deBhaal Just the class.

Mark_CMG How's that?  (Can you elaborate?)

deBhaal I'm kinda doing published adventures, and adding in, or taking away what I don't like.

Mark_CMG I see.

deBhaal I meant the class fit in the game, I didn't need to alter the game.

Mark_CMG So the game you run is fairly flexible for that sort of thing?

deBhaal Yep.  I don't like "rigid" much.

Mark_CMG That's a good thing to avoid.  Let's move on to a related topic.

(deBhaal chuckles)

Wolf72 Okay. (smiles)

Mark_CMG The XP awards - How do you decide if they need adjusting for your personal concept of the game?

Piratecat (chuckles) My group levels once every 10-12 sessions.

Wolf72 Wow, PC .. tell more? 

deBhaal Hmmm, I know I give too much XP.

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) Which is kinda slow by some standards, eh?

(chatdemon joins)

Mark_CMG Howdy Rich (chatdemon).

deBhaal Or did.

Baastet Hi, chatdemon.

chatdemon Yo.

Piratecat I decided early on that I wanted a long-term campaign - 11 years, now. We found it made for very rich PCs.

Mark_CMG (to Rich) CMG_Nichar will PM (private message) you with where in the discussion we are currently. (smiles)

Piratecat Rich as in character and personality, not cash.  (smiles)

Mark_CMG Nice.

Piratecat In 3E, with the faster advancement, we saw no reason to change things.

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) I see.  So with a focus on character depth, a slower progression serves you well?

Piratecat Very much so.  In Sagiro's campaign as well.

Umbran Okay, so PC, how frequently do you have combats?

Wolf72 Do you cut down on the amount of XP awards? (the .5 example?)

Mark_CMG How does it feel from the other side of the table?  Ever want it to move a bit faster?

Piratecat But we have stable players. In college, with people coming and leaving, it wouldn't work as well.

Mark_CMG Umbran, had a particularly good question there.  "How frequently do you have combats?"

Wolf72 Ah ... my example from above was a college experience ... (same with other problem) 

deBhaal I give way too much compared to PC. (chuckles)  Well, would be (too much) in his game.

chatdemon I cut XP awards by 10 myself

Piratecat Wolf, it's confession time. I usually just toss encounters at the group, then figure out standard XP... and adjust it so that people level when they "should."  Heretical!

Wolf72 I like that!

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) (chuckles)

Wolf72 ... but now we have to stone you, sorry! (winks)

Piratecat Cutting it by 10 would have about the same effect, although we have a combat-light game usually.

Umbran Not Heretical, just not for all groups.

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) To 10% of normal?

alsih2o Does everyone keep the same XP reward rate throughout the campaign or do you find some levels feel better played slower?

chatdemon Yeah, 10% of suggested.

Mark_CMG I see.

deBhaal Hmmm...

Mark_CMG (to alsih2o)  Good question.

Wolf72 I don't mind taking a few sessions to level.  It lets me get a feel for my character's new abilities!

FastLearner I try to have at least one combat, one puzzle/strategy issue, and one solid roleplaying session every game, so XP goes pretty fast but not nearly as fast as if I'd focused on combat

Piratecat (to Umbran)  We have maybe one big fight every other game.

Umbran I've occasionally seen folks want to take levels 1-3 slower than the rest, because as is they whip by pretty darned fast.

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner)  That's a good balance.

FastLearner On the player side, I like about 5-7 or so sessions per level.

deBhaal I like fast leveling.

Mark_CMG (to Umbran)  Does that help you to build the characters with more detail?

Piratecat If I was starting a new game with new players, I'd probably have them level every 5 sessions or so.

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat)  So you would change the old formula you use?  Why the speedier game? 

Wolf72 I'd like that ... I feel cheated if I don't have a chance to ever experiment with my skills or new feat.

Umbran The players find it often does.  If you're treating a 1st level character as "a babe in the woods", slowing down early advancement helps them deal with certain things... like the fact they've never "killed" anything before...

Piratecat For brand new players, Mark, a speedier leveling process isn't a bad thing.

alsih2o I agree.

Mark_CMG There is a risk of over-indulging with characters, if you move too slow, and thereby becoming so attached that it makes character death a big loss, or the possibility of boredom creeping over some players.

deBhaal I'll probably slow down XP a bit.

alsih2o People new to the game like the feeling of advancement.

Piratecat When people start to chafe about XP, it's usually time to award it.  (smiles)

deBhaal (chuckles)

Mark_CMG (smiles)

chatdemon The trick is finding other rewards besides XP.

Mark_CMG Anything more to say on this topic at this point?

deBhaal Not really.

Piratecat I don't announce XP awards until someone is leveling, or a story arc finishes.

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) Very good point.

Piratecat Yes, chatdemon is correct.

Baastet Well, as a player, I like to see some reward if there has been lotsa good combat/roleplaying/ideas etc.

Mark_CMG Let's use that to springboard into the other items and rewards for PCs and how best to dole them out?

CMG_Nichar I should be finally getting back to the gaming table as a player this Wednesday.. With Sir-Gish-Makai as my DM.... I have no idea how he handles level advancements.

Baastet As you said chat rewards other than XP are always nice.

deBhaal ...such as weapons, scrolls, money, friends...

chatdemon In my opinion, cutting down XP and cutting down cash flow should go hand in hand.

Mark_CMG deBhaal brought up "items for the right level"

deBhaal Enemies (ongoing NPCs) can be a good thing ... for DMs anyway.

Piratecat I like in-game awards. Notoriety, fame, privileges, etc.

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon)  True.  Let's talk a bit about lower levels perks.

chatdemon ...then money can be used as a reward, and the characters actually have to work for the cool new items they want which can give them a sense of accomplishment.

alsih2o Yes, a stable game world where the effects of the PCs actions can be seen.

Piratecat Regarding "items for the right level" - the wealth guidelines can act as a check and balance.

Wolf72 (to Piratecat)  Good quotable.

Baastet And not to mention romances or general things for character developement, like being able to freely multi between 2 normally restriced classes.....

FastLearner I find one of the best and least-unbalancing non-xp awards is simply giving a player a chance to shine.

Wolf72 ... what's right for "x"-level?

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner)  That's very important.

FastLearner Like creating an encouter that let's a particular player's or character's skills stand out.

Wolf72 (to FastLearner)  Yup-Yup! 

alsih2o FastLearner is right.  Make them feel like the characters are important and you have them hooked.

Mark_CMG And to use a roleplaying encounter, such as one that Baastet suggests, is a good way to do that.

Wolf72 ...or that their skills do matter.

chatdemon I'm not sure what you mean by lower level perks.

deBhaal Reasons for people to like low levels or enjoy low levels a bit more.

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon)  Things that appeal to the lower level characters that are important to introduce to the game at those levels.  Such as dealing with some of the background ideas  of the players

Wolf72 Ooh, muy bien ... especially with experienced players who think that 1st lvl is just a beginner level with nothing interesting.

deBhaal Enemies!

Mark_CMG Including some familial encounters.

chatdemon Fame or infamy is a good perk, in my opinion.

Hildulf Dang.... I'm back....

Piratecat One thing to remember: a character ability that never gets used (paladin's mount, anybody?) is not actually a benefit.  When my player's cleric got regenerate, I spent sessions trying to chop off a limb, just so he could use it. 

deBhaal Yeah, my friend's character ... his family was killed by undead.

Mark_CMG Perhaps explaining the reasoning as to why someone would even adventure in the first place.

chatdemon If the NPCs start to actually recognize the characters' deeds.

Wolf72 (laughs) Piratecat!

deBhaal (laughs)

Piratecat Thus, use ranger's species enemies, and undead, and set up circumstances that play to the PCs' strengths.

Baastet I find that some of my "non combat" magic items were the most appreciated by my low level players.  They had things like a insect repellent cube, and an iron that heated and dried items when rubbed over it.  They were very small, totally non-combat, but they gave the PCs something useful even at a very low level.

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon)  Do you use a lot of player's background to set up early sessions?

alsih2o Low levels are your chance to make the world real.

Piratecat Well said.

Wolf72 Agreed ... and it can seem like a curse ... "Man!  Everywhere I go it's undead!" (ala Buffy)

Mark_CMG (to Baastet)  Yupperoo!

chatdemon Not really, I dont like the "custom made for you adventure" types.

Piratecat Neat idea, Baastet.

Mark_CMG (to alsih2o)  Very true.

chatdemon I prefer to see PCs as ordinary Joes who stumble upon an adventure.

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon)  How do you introduce them into the game?

(deBhaal has an agent type person that sent the characters on their first adventure.)

Wolf72 (to chatdemon) ... at least an opportunity here and there?

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal)  That's always good.

deBhaal Yeah.

Mark_CMG Any other ideas on that?

chatdemon I'll use the backgrounds to get the party together, then present the adventure to them.

Wolf72 Introduce into game?  Eek!  (Confession - very weak point for me.)

Mark_CMG OK, just to bring them together, but allow them to find adventure as a group, eh?

Wolf72 Yup.

chatdemon I make each player come up with 3 distinct goals, and try and tie the adventure to what the players want, not where their PC came from.

deBhaal (to Mark_CMG)  Something like that.

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) I see.  That is an excellent way to do it.  Who else uses character goals as a springboard?

Baastet We use backgrounds as sub-plots and tie-ins to major plots.  It gives the players something "personal" to deal with.

deBhaal An adventure I'm in with another group online started as a mercenary group...

Wolf72 Goals vs background ... I like that.

deBhaal ...more like a babysitting job though.

chatdemon So if the bard's goals include wanting to find the songs of some famous bard, I'll toss a hint about that bard into the adventure hook.  For example...

FastLearner I use goals, indeed. The only problem I have with them is trying to remember to include them often enough. (smiles)

deBhaal (chuckles)

Wolf72 Index cards work well.

Mark_CMG Very important to make notes.

Piratecat I build them into big plot points.

(Baastet is woefully un-organized)

Wolf72 Although some players do make dming feel more like a chore than fun.  (smiles)   Wolf72 is guilty, too.  Sorry Paul! (-Wolf72's big brother-)

deBhaal (to Baastet) Me, too.  I scratch out basics of the ememes right before a fight.  (frowns)

Mark_CMG While chatdemon is typing his example, let's throw out some organizational ideas too help Baastet.

chatdemon Once a goal is completed, I ask them to create a new one, so there are always 3 goals per PC, and I ask them to be realistic.

Mark_CMG Index cards was mentioned...

Wolf72 5x8, even.

Piratecat Interesting idea, chatdemon.

Baastet I have my own DM-sprial notebook. 

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon)  So goals accomplished always lead to bigger goals?

Wolf72 Punch holes ... get some rings and viola!

chatdemon Realistic goals I mean, ruling the world isn't a realistic goal for a level 1 fighter, owning a masterwork sword is.

deBhaal (laughs)

Hildulf DM spiral notebook is always a good plan... 

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon)  True.

deBhaal (to chatdemon)  Sure it is ... just a really long term goal and three others to be used now.

chatdemon Yeah, the goals get bigger and more grandiose as they level up.

Baastet (to Mark_CMG) I think part of it is needing a bigger GM-area.  (winks)  I feel squished behind the gm screen.

alsih2o I actually keep index cards on a keychain with notes on all the PCs, and most of the NPCs.

deBhaal I'd end up losing it.

alsih2o (smiles)

Mark_CMG Does anyone like to DM without a DM screen?

Piratecat Me.

chatdemon I never use a screen.

alsih2o Me, too.

chatdemon Never have...

CMG_Nichar Me... when I used to DM.

Piratecat I often do anyways, but I don't especially like it.

deBhaal i just like the nice art work on it.

Hildulf I DM without a DM screen all the time.

chatdemon If I fudge a roll, they'll know I fudged a roll.  (smiles)

Wolf72 Yes ... some of my players won't stare, others would constantly try to second guess or get an up by looking at my notes.

Mark_CMG How many actually use the charts on the DM screens in game?

chatdemon ...and I'll explain why...

FastLearner I don't like the separation, but I do like the ability to keep things private.

Wolf72 (raises hand) I use mine as a dice shield mostly.

Baastet (chuckles) My players would read my notes if I didn't use one.

Hildulf Correction... I roll dice ON the DM screen (I lay it flat). Because I do use the charts...

Mark_CMG Ah... I see... (smiles and winks)

deBhaal I use 'em, when I need them.

Wolf72 So.  Umm... It's got charts and stuff too? (winks)

chatdemon A lot of times, we dont even sit around the dinner table, we just pull up a seat on a couch or on the floor in the living room, so the screen becomes a moot point.

Mark_CMG (to Hildulf) Best of both worlds, eh?

chatdemon I obviously don't use minis most of the time.

Piratecat I don't use the charts; I use it as a notes screen. I DM from the middle of the table, not the end, so screening the notes becomes important.

FastLearner I'm working on my own LARGE TYPE tables for use with that slip-in DM screen I bought because the little tables with poor light (inside the screened area) make it too difficult to use them.

deBhaal I need minis.

Hildulf Yup... I like rolls in the open.

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon)  More comfortable setting that way?

Baastet Ahh, to use minis or not to use minis..... How many do?

chatdemon Our sessions can run 8 to 10 houirs on a good weekend, sitting at the table gets uncomfortable.

Wolf72 I've had players ask me not to roll in the open, I somehow roll better (for the NPCs) in the open.

Mark_CMG So most use some sort of "hidden area" for their notes, at least? ...and their dice?

Hildulf I would use minis if I had them....

FastLearner We all use minis since 3E.  I love the combination of role playing and tactical boardgaming.

Hildulf But nobody makes a Winged Minotaur mini...

Wolf72 "How long should your session be?" ... new question?*

deBhaal I would, too .. i just use paper.  My sessions are till we get bored, and then we do somethign else.

FastLearner Yup, mostly to shield my notes and rolls.

Mark_CMG OK, let's get back to one of PCs suggested problem areas - "shifting gears" as from a political game to a dungeon crawl.

chatdemon (to deBhaal)  That's how we do it usually, we go until everyone is bored or asleep.

Baastet (to Hildulf) (chuckles) Winged minotaur is easy enough to convert.  Yes we use minis ... mmmmmm minis.

Piratecat Regarding - "shifting gears" --

Hildulf Session lasts until the first person starts drooling and snoring on their character sheet.

Baastet Hmm...  Well, since I have rarely been in a politcal game (to my great constrenation and frustration), I can't say... (frowns)

Piratecat Last game, my PCs were in a "dungeon" (a treasure vault) for the first time in ages. They're all about 16th level.  No one thought to search.

Mark_CMG (to Baastet)  Even from town to dungeon and such?

Piratecat They just kept looking at me, waiting for interaction. It was disquieting.

alsih2o (laughs)

deBhaal (laughs)

Wolf72 (laughs)

Piratecat I have to think I did something wrong on the transition.

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat)  ...and how did you prompt them?

Wolf72 I need to work on goals of dungeon delving ...

Baastet Well, I had a hard time shifting my PCs from a city to sewers beneath (chuckles) but eventually I used a sub-plot to tantalize them into expolring it.

(Wolf72 thanks chatdemon) (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Baastet)  Tell us more about that, please?

Piratecat Well, I dropped a half dozen obvious hints that everyone ignored, so they left the room that had stuff they needed and continued on.  (smiles)

deBhaal I was DMing my brother once, and he wanted to walk by the chasm that he was supposed to go down... (laughs)

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat)  So they wound up missing some treasure?

chatdemon (to deBhaal)  So have him fall.  (smiles)

Mark_CMG (laughs)

Hildulf Ah ha! "To railroad, or not to railroad... THAT is the question."

Piratecat Later, I mentioned some of the typical things they might have done - and people said, "Oh, yeah! Whoops."

deBhaal (to chatdemon)  No, I just told him he saw a greater Blue dragon Flying towards him ... he was level 4

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat)  So a lesson learned. (smiles)

alsih2o I think this has quickly evolved into a "player guidance without railroading" sub-discussion. (smiles)

Wolf72 Railroad! ... I mean um, because I said so .. wait no ... 

Piratecat  Not treasure, essential clues on how to get further into the vault. Now they'll have to figure it out the hard way.

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat)  So this is ongoing?

chatdemon (to Piratecat)  Though thats probably a bit annoying for the DM, it's actually somewhat realistic behavoir from the party, they're out of practice.

Piratecat Yes. They're half-way in.

Wolf72 Do they get frustrated PC?  Or do they accept that they may have missed clues?

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon)  True.

Piratecat Probably true, Rich.

Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Well, I had them already involved in a plot with a missing merchant, since they had to go through the sewers to find him to get the infomation to continue along the "main" storyline. I decided to use the missing merchant as a springboard and made a full blown aub-plot of people missing throughout the city (they learned this as they were exploring the city.)

Piratecat They'll accept it. What bugs me is that at least one player seemed frustrated in game. I don't like that.

Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Eventually they found out it was a secret socitey that was doing experiements on people and turning them into new types of undead....

Piratecat I wish I had found a way to get him drawn in more effectively; maybe a "pep talk" from a knowledgeable no problem?

chatdemon What I try to keep everyone's mind on is the fact they are adventurers, though they may spend some time in throne room politics or on the battlefield with the army, they are always looking for the trap doors, or the ambush.

Hildulf Political Ambush....

Wolf72 ... I'd like it if they would accept that setbacks can be fun, too.

deBhaal Innuendo...

Mark_CMG Yes, chatdemon.  (to Piratecat)  Were you describing things in a different way, to remind them that they were in a different environment?

Piratecat A fine thing. I worry they may be turning into one trick ponies. The paladin's idea of searching was to constantly detect evil, and that's it.

FastLearner Ooh, indeed, Wolf. Setbacks just make victories that much sweeter, but it's really hard to see from a player perspective.

deBhaal The rogue wasn't searching?

Piratecat Describing things in a different way, how??

Piratecat No rogue.

deBhaal Oh...

chatdemon I've seen that, usually from the rogues though 'I check for traps, I pick the lock, I open the door, next'

Wolf72 Agreed, but getting the snot kicked out of my PC can be fun, too.

FastLearner Amen!

Baastet The trial and tribulations of a PC can be very rewarding when they finally succeed.

deBhaal Hmmm...(deBhaal is hungry...)

(CMG_Nichar Quit)

chatdemon That goes back to the low level perks thing, have an NPC beat the crap out of the party a few times, and they feel really good when they finally beat him.

Baastet Especially if it is involving them specifically like from soMe background thing.

Mark_CMG In such a way as to remind them that they were not in a court room/town/typical environment for their usual behavior patterns?

Piratecat Probably true, Baastet. I just worry that this mini-adventure will feel more like a chore than fun if I don't change something. (to Mark_CMG) Example?

Baastet (to Piratecat) That is always a problem...

Hildulf What's the most difficult formula for you (as a DM) to remember, which is NOT on the DM screen?

Piratecat The lack of a rogue is probably the key to the problem, now that I think of it.

Mark_CMG Well, depends on the setting, but for instance, making sure to mention how alone they are in the dungeon, how things echo because of its size and emptiness.

Hildulf For ME, it is the Cleric "Turn Undead" formula...

alsih2o I am sure a party of appropriate level looks at nearly everything differently, searching thru drawers for 10 gp is boring when you have a +3 frostbrand as a backup sword.

Piratecat Yup. Got that.  (smiles)

Wolf72 I tried to write a short story after each significant session ... to lighten it up and let the PCs see what I was thinking.

chatdemon What about introducing a 'rival' party that is also exploring the dungeon, so they can interact with those NPCs, and there is a sense of urgency and competition?

Baastet (to Hildulf) Grappleing & Tripping .. always causes alot of debate.

Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) Good idea.

Hildulf Grappling and tripping... another difficult one...

Piratecat That's the other weird thing, alsih2o.  They see a room full of gold, and say, "Eh. We don't need gold."  (grins)

deBhaal Well, most parts of combat I have no problem with.

alsih2o NPCs also allow you to question the characters and get their perspective. (to Piratecat)  Yes, the jaded party syndrome. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) That's a whole different problem... (winks)

Wolf72 (to Piratecat) Oh, you should meet one of my friends/dm ... everything COSTS ... (smiles)

alsih2o (to Mark_CMG)  I disagree.

Piratecat A fine idea, Rich, but not applicable here - I think. I'll think on it. (to Mark_CMG) They're in the underdark.  No stores!

Mark_CMG (grins)

alsih2o (to Mark_CMG) I think part of the reason the party may have not stopped to search is that after a while nothing worth having is small enough to hide. (smiles)

Piratecat Anyways, enough of my dilemma. You folks gave me some good ideas.  Thank you.

Mark_CMG How do they deal with the mundane tasks of living down there?

FastLearner Diamonds and rings are pretty small... (smiles)

Baastet (to Piratecat) How often do things of thiers get destroyed?

Mark_CMG Let me take a moment to address this a little further, if I may?

alsih2o (to FastLearner)  That is why it is a MISconception.  (smiles)

Piratecat (to Mark_CMG) A Mordenkainen's MAgnificent Mansion provides all the food.  (then to Baastet) Last game a dragon tried to eat all their weapons.  Improved disarm -> swallow.

Mark_CMG Beyond just dealing with food and shelter, there are any number of things that are far easier to handle while in a civilized area than in a hostile environment.

Baastet Sleep...  Well, the safety of sleeping. (chuckles)

Mark_CMG The shelter works while they are resting, but just moving through such a place has a tendancy to make people dirty.  And, not to be indiscreet, there are the simple things like stopping to sit for a moment, and relieving oneself, that while it isn't necessary to go into detail, can be mentioned just to drive home how uncomfortable the environment is.

Piratecat True. Interesting color text.

chatdemon Not that a medieval castle is much more comfortable.

Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Not to mention fresh foods ... dried rations get old after eating them for 3 times a day for a week.

Mark_CMG Even wiping sweat from the forehead should leave a trail of dirt over their face.

alsih2o A good reminder of the comparable discomfort of adventuring goes a long way.

Piratecat They'll run out of clean cantrips.... (chuckles).

Mark_CMG Small pebbles in their shoes, broken straps on their packs...

deBhaal (chuckles)

Baastet Wear and tear on clothing and equipment...

Piratecat Jermalaine!

Mark_CMG Things that wouldn't be a big problem in civilization.

Wolf72 101 mundane nuisances for adventures. (smiles)

(chatdemon left)

Baastet (laughs) Pkitty, my players hate Jermalaine, pixies and mephits.

Piratecat I can imagine.

Mark_CMG Little noises down side hallways that cause them to waste a light spell, etc.

Piratecat Mark, we can move on if you want - I now have some good ideas!

Mark_CMG OK.

Piratecat Thank you again.

Mark_CMG I think the last topic we have is 3 dimensional combat?

alsih2o pretty much

Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Was that your topic?

Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Yah.  It all stems from a 25' pit trap and a gelatinous cube.

Mark_CMG How to deal with flying (or swimming) encounters, etc.

Piratecat 3d combat: use the clear plastic boxes that come with your dice to place flying figures on.

Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Ah, just a land enounter with three dimensions.  I see.

Wolf72 Hey, swim and fly ... according to sage/301 ... fly works underwater.

deBhaal I dont have clear plastic things ...

Mark_CMG It's a good idea to have a tape measure, for one. (smiles)

Wolf72 Or decent sized d6's.

deBhaal (to Wolf72) Err ... how does it (fly spell) work underwater?

Mark_CMG And using anything handy, to give you some levels, is good.

Wolf72 (yahtzee)

Mark_CMG I'll bet most of you have a bookshelf full of paperbacks in the house, eh?

Wolf72 (to deBhaal) ... just lets use your flying speed ... 

FastLearner Yeah, too many discussions about a-squared plus b-squared = c-squared without the tape measure.

Baastet But what if, like in a gelatinous cube, they are engulfed?

Mark_CMG I used to use poker chips to denote who was five feet, ten feet high, etc.

Baastet swore if she had another gelatinouscube/pit trap she is making a jello jiggler for stuffing minis in....)

FastLearner Good idea, Mark!

deBhaal I have some of those ...

alsih2o I DO like the poker chip deal!

Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Good idea!

Mark_CMG (to Baastet) That might be the best way to deal with it. (laughs)

Mark_CMG Barring the poker chips, tearing up a piece of paper and writing the height on the edges can be useful (or colored paper if it is available).

deBhaal Hmmm, kind of an off-tangent, what kind of music do you listen to while playing?

Mark_CMG Some people just use their larger six siders.

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) No tangents, please. (smiles)

Baastet Well, we use a megamat so we write the distances along side the characters for aerial combat.

alsih2o We have often used a piece of graph paper on the wall to denote height in combat.  So, we are seeing combat from above and the side.

Mark_CMG I like to also "split the mat"

Baastet (to alsih2o) Good idea.

Wolf72 Anyone have the old game "Chopper Strike"? ... it had two levels, one for jeeps, the others for huey's (helicopters).

FastLearner (to alsih2o) Another great idea!

Mark_CMG Putting some books under half of the mat if the distance in height in far enough works well.

(Hildulf left)

Wolf72 Of course ... someone is bound to bump it and send everything 'flying' for real.

deBhaal (laughs)

Mark_CMG (laughs)

alsih2o So, mark, time left to create an encounter or adventure?

Mark_CMG Absolutely!  But one more quick topic... "Music" (grins)

deBhaal (grins)

Mark_CMG Throw out your suggestions rapid fire!

Wolf72 Enya!

Mark_CMG Conan soundtrack.

deBhaal Hmmm, don't have any Enya.

Mark_CMG Wagner.

Wolf72 Conan vote 2

Baastet I have a bunch of soundtracks I have hunted down... I am usually in charge of music even when I am not running.

Mark_CMG Heavy Metal of most kinds.

alsih2o Anything by anyone from Western Europe who has been dead for more than 50 years.

Mark_CMG Jethro Tull.

Wolf72 Hunt for Red October.

deBhaal Drownning Pool, Bodies is a good one for combat. (winks)

Baastet RPG game soundtracks like Baldur's gate and Icewind Dale.

Mark_CMG Genesis.

Wolf72 Soundtrack to Heavy Metal. (animated movie)

Mark_CMG Irish Folk music.

Wolf72 Babylon 5.

deBhaal Hmmm...

Baastet Bram Stoker's Dracula for good, spooky feel.

Wolf72 Irish: The Pogues.

Wolf72 AC/DC

Piratecat I'm going to excuse myself; my laptop battery is petering out, and I need food.  Thank you, everyone; this has been fun!

Mark_CMG Thanks, Piratecat.

Wolf72 Ciao, Piratecat!

Baastet Excalibur: The Movie.

Mark_CMG Adios.

alsih2o Have a good night, Pkitty.

deBhaal Bye.

Baastet Bye, Pkitty.

Piratecat You, too!  Definitiely an hour, or so, well spent. Night, all!

FastLearner I'm finishing up an application that lets you play mp3s, and other sounds, by type.  You can classify certain songs as, say, "travel," "eerie," "combat," "tavern," etc., and the application will play through the list you specify (randomly without repeating).  You just click on a type and the previous song fades out and the new one comes up.  G'night, Pcat.

(Piratecat Quit)

Baastet Ooooooo, FastLearner. I want that.  (winks)

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Good idea.

Wolf72 Star Trek 6: Undiscovered Country.

deBhaal (to FastLearner) I could use one of those.

FastLearner I'll post a link to it on the EN World software forum when it's complete.

deBhaal (grins)

Mark_CMG There's a company called Toxic Bag productions that sells sound effects.

Wolf72 Holst: the Planets.

FastLearner I've seen those, Mark. Do you know if they're any good?

Mark_CMG I have The Game Masters Collection and it has a lot of useful sound effects.

Baastet Ring of the Neiberlung (orchestral version).

Wolf72 S'okay, Baastet.  It's hard to type with paws.  (smiles)

deBhaal (laughs)

deBhaal You should know. (winks)

Baastet DND the movie soundtrack, Harry Potter & LotR soundrack, anything by John Williams..... (winks and chuckles)

Wolf72 You ain't just whistlin dixie! ... and I'm not reccomending that. (winks)

Baastet (to Wolf72) It's typo gremlins, I tell yah... 

Wolf72 Yup, John Williams is all good. (smiles)

Baastet Stargate has a great soundtrack.

Mark_CMG Okie doke.  Let's move on to our second half agenda tonight.  Let's collectively develop a short scenario...

(I'll be posting the second half in the comings days, including the pieces that were brain-stormed to develop the scenario.  Hopefully, before the next session on Monday November 4th at 7pm, I'll have a revised copy of the scenario that can be used by anyone who wishes to use it. - MAC CMG)


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## Trevalon Moonleirion

OOooOOOH!  wow, this looked like a helluva lot of good stuff got talked about!  So the next chat is November 4?  I think I'm going to have to try to make it to at least part of it!


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## alsih2o

i enjoyed the chat enormously, lots of useful stuff, and some really good input from everyone.

 i look forward to the next one.


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## Mark

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *i enjoyed the chat enormously, lots of useful stuff, and some really good input from everyone.
> 
> I look forward to the next one. *




I'm glad that you enjoyed it.  I'll be running a few DMing seminars at Cyber Con for those who will be attending-

http://www.cybercon.rpghost.com/

Let me know if you can make it!


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## Mark

Mon Oct 21 22:20:37 2002 (Part Two)


(#CMG) Creative Mountain Games - Visit the CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/ 
CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!

(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)

Participating:
alsih2o
Baastet
chatdemon
CMG_Nichar
deBhaal
FastLearner
Hildulf
Mark_CMG
Piratecat
Umbran
Wolf72


(Beginning of second section)

Mark_CMG Okie doke.  Let's move on to our second half agenda tonight.  Let's collectively develop a short scenario...

Wolf72 OK.

Mark_CMG How about if we design an encounter, (for starters and maybe add some layers to it)?

deBhaal What level?

Mark_CMG Everyone throw out a level for our design and we'll take the one that can service the most of them.

Baastet 5

deBhaal 6

FastLearner 8

alsih2o 6

Baastet 7

Wolf72 7

deBhaal (chuckles)

deBhaal 6

alsih2o Wow, what a grouping!

deBhaal Definitely.

Mark_CMG OK, let's make it for 7 and scalable to 5, 6 or 8?

FastLearner Perfect.

deBhaal OK.

Mark_CMG So it needs to be multiple creatures or NPCs.

alsih2o (sarcasm) Scalable, one feature of Whispering Woodwind, by CMG!(/sarcasm)

Mark_CMG Can everyone grab their DMGs?

Wolf72 Yup

alsih2o I can.

FastLearner Can't get to mine from here.

deBhaal Err ... Where did I put it ...

Mark_CMG Turn to page 101, please.

FastLearner (It's down in the car.)

deBhaal Never can find it after a session ..

(Baastet sneaks into get the DMG)

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner)  You'll have to fake it. (smiles)

(FastLearner fakes it)

Mark_CMG (Or go get it!) (smiles)

deBhaal Can find all my books but the DMG...

Wolf72 Ick!  Wolf72 no like this table! 

Baastet Have it.

Wolf72 Guess now is good as time as any to get more familiar with it.

Baastet Ah the Enounter # table... My old nemesis...

Mark_CMG Let's use a fourth level creature type, so we can have three but can use two, one, or four to scale the encounter if need be, ok?  So who has their MM handy?

alsih2o A choice that leaves more scalability than the mixed pair... (then to Mark_CMG) Me!

Wolf72 Oy... I kinda do, too (smiles)

(Baastet has MM2 handy)

(deBhaal has both)

deBhaal Just no DMG. (frowns)

Mark_CMG We'll stick with MM1 so most of us can play. (winks)

FastLearner Just grabbed my books.

Baastet Drat! I would have to go get that one, too.

Mark_CMG Last page of the MM has the creatures by level...

Wolf72 So... We're looking at 3 level 4 creatures?

alsih2o Yes, like 3 owlbears, or polar bears, or brown bears...  Lots of bears at this level.

Mark_CMG To handle 3 dimensional encounters, let's have a Harpy and two Gargoyles in a cavern, eh?

FastLearner Or 3 Gargoyles, Griffons, or Harpies. (then to Mark_CMG) Sounds good.

Mark_CMG Let's mix it up.

alsih2o Good choice.

deBhaal No, dont want Griffons... Grr....

Wolf72 Harpy with beetles?

Baastet A 3rd level ninja flumph?

Mark_CMG How about we design two (or more) encounters? 

Baastet (winks)

deBhaal (laughs)

Wolf72 Not funny deBhaal! (winks)

Mark_CMG In one area, a Harpy and two Gargoyles.

Wolf72 Vampy spawn for the next?

deBhaal (smiles)

Mark_CMG In another area a Griffon ridden by a fourth level fighter?

deBhaal That could be nasty...

Baastet I like the Griffon idea.

Wolf72 ...with a repeating crossbow?

deBhaal Really nasty...

alsih2o Agreed, a group and a "single" encounter of fighter and mount.

Mark_CMG OK, deBhaal, your task is to go to the NPC generator and get us a 4th level fighter Stat Block.

Wolf72 We need golem (a dice roller)!  "!rollstats" (smiles)

FastLearner How about a desert area with spires for the Harpy and Gargoyles?

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Sounds good.

deBhaal Hmmm...

Mark_CMG Let's make the fighter the rival NPC (for the group that explores the area).

Wolf72 Lots of spires?  Almost forest-like?

Baastet ...and a lookout post/plateau for the Griffon?

Mark_CMG ...and the Harpy and Gargoyles the guardians of something?

deBhaal I only have the pre-making of E-tools.

Mark_CMG Who can generate a fairly quick map and post it somewhere?

FastLearner But sparse enough for some movement... at least 10' between each, probably more like 20', or flying between them becomes impossible.

Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Not me.

Wolf72 20-30' sounds good ... like a german forest then (smiles)

Mark_CMG Even if it is just a bitmap made in paint with circles and squares? (to Wolf72) That might be too small I think.  Oh, I see.  In between the spires?

FastLearner I can probably put together a map quickly enough.

Wolf72 ... 50' or so? (hard to get perspective)

Mark_CMG In between the spires?

Wolf72 oh Yup ... in between.

Mark_CMG Sorry.  I understand.

Wolf72 No problem.

Mark_CMG 20 - 30' sounds good.

deBhaal Dwarven fighter work? (smiles)

Mark_CMG Anyone want to tackle a simple map?

(deBhaal has played too much warcraft)

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) Dwarven Fighter sounds OK.

deBhaal (chuckles)

FastLearner Low resolution map OK?

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) That's good.  (to all)  OK.  I need someone to throw together a Harpy Stat Block.

Baastet I can.

Mark_CMG OK.

Baastet  Basic Harpy?

Mark_CMG Wolf, how about you do the Griffon Stat Block?

deBhaal Alignment?

Wolf72 Would that include the Harpy's treasure ... she might be able to use some of it?

Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Yes, please.

Wolf72 OK.  Barding?

deBhaal Sure.

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72)  Yeah, deck him out.

deBhaal It's a dwarf riding it.

Baastet Treasure for Harpy?

Mark_CMG Yup.

deBhaal Alignment? NE work?

Mark_CMG NE is fine.

deBhaal (smiles)

Mark_CMG Who's got the Gargoyles?

alsih2o (to FastLearner) Check out http://triestemia.com/caves/giganteen.htm

Mark_CMG (to alsih2o) No cheating... (grins)

alsih2o Just a helpful map of a real cave. (smiles)

Mark_CMG We want this to be original, though a good idea from anywhere is a good idea. (grins)

FastLearner Awesome.  I'm working on something that's more like the desert southwest where I live.

alsih2o I like checking out maps spelunkers have made.

Mark_CMG Who's got the Gargoyles? How about you, alsih2o?

alsih2o Sure...

Mark_CMG Okie-doke.

alsih2o Doing what to them?

Mark_CMG Putting together some quick Stat Blocks?

alsih2o OK.

Mark_CMG ...and treasure?

Wolf72 Pardon the ignorance but is basic MM info the standard Stat Block with short notes?

Mark_CMG Ah, Stat Blocks...

alsih2o Can someone remind me where the treasure table is?

Mark_CMG One second.

alsih2o By CR?  Ah, nevermind...

Mark_CMG http://www.d20statblock.org/standard/d20standard.html

Baastet Grrr...  I can't find my MM.

Mark_CMG Uh oh... (smiles) (then to Baastet) And you've got the Harpy, right?

FastLearner Still working on it (the map), hurrying, I promise.

Mark_CMG No problem.  There's no hurry.

Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Yes Harpy ...

Harpy: CR 4; Medium-Size Monstrous Humanoid; HD 7d8; hp #; Init +2 (Dex); Spd 20 ft., fly 80 ft. (average); AC 13 (+2 Dex, +1 natural); Atk Club +7/+2 melee (1d4),  or 2 claws +2 melee (1d3); SA Captivating song; AL CE; SV Fort +2, Ref +7, Will +5; Str 10, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 15. 

Skills and Feats: Bluff +8, Listen +7, Perform (buffoonery, chant, epic, limericks, melody, ode, storytelling) +9, Spot +6; Dodge, flyby Attack.

Wolf72 If I had the MM2 I'd make it a warbeast ... but that'd up the CR and EL.

Mark_CMG (grins)

Baastet Thanks.

Gargoyle: CR 4; Medium-Size Magical Beast (Earth); HD 4d10+16; hp #; Init +2 (Dex); Spd 45 ft., fly 75 ft. (average); AC 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural); Atk 2 claws +6 melee (1d4),  bite +4 melee (1d6),  gore +4 melee (1d6); SQ Damage reduction 15/+1, freeze; AL CE; SV Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +1; Str 11, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 7. 

Skills and Feats: Hide +9*, Listen +4, Spot +4; Multiattack, Weapon Finesse (claw, bite, gore).

deBhaal Bah, I need E-tools!

Mark_CMG (grins) Does everyone know how to send and receive a file in IRC?

Baastet OK.  Maybe I sound like a newb but what more do we need that this Harpy statblock and the treasure she has?

Baastet Yes

FastLearner I don't, not how to send or receive one.

alsih2o No.

Griffon Mount: HD 7d10+21 (65 hp),  Init +2, speed 30 (fly 80),  AC 21 (-1 sz, +2 dx, +6 NA, +4 darkwood chain shirt barding),  attks: bite +8 (2d6+4) 2 claws +3 (1d4+2),  Spec Attks: Pounce (see MM2 for new description), rake 1d6+2, Spec Qual: Scent,  Ft: +8, Rf: +7, Wl: +3, S: 18 (+4), D: 15 (+2), C: 16 (+3), I: 5, W: 13, CH 8, Jump +8, Listen +6, Spot +11 (+15 in daylight)

Mark_CMG Did everyone have a box pop up?

alsih2o I did.

FastLearner Yup.

Wolf72 Umm... That'd be a 'no idea' on recieve file for IRC.

Baastet Yep.

Mark_CMG deBhaal?

Wolf72 ...but I think I just did. (smiles) Yup regarding the box.

Mark_CMG That file is from a site ( http://www.xenomind.com/ana/ ), I'll add the link into the chat session log later, and it has the Stat Blocks for all of the MM creatures.

Wolf72 Agreed to it ... now in my mirc\download folder.

deBhaal Hmmm...

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) See a box pop up?

deBhaal Who has CharGen? (to Mark_CMG) Yeah, I did, accepted and it said failed.

alsih2o Shall we post our treasure amounts and such, Mark_CMG?

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) I'll try again.

deBhaal OK.

Wolf72 By the way, keep that Dwarf and equipment under 287.5 lbs. (winks)

deBhaal It's sending now.

Mark_CMG Okie doke.

deBhaal Hmmm.. I'll have to check him.

Mark_CMG Did you already finish the character, deBhaal?

deBhaal Pretty much but it won't let me put his battleaxe on him, but the rest is done.

Mark_CMG (grins) A dwarf without a battleaxe?!?!?

alsih2o Is that allowed?

deBhaal (laughs)

Wolf72 Note: darkwood is a basically a weaker form of mithral 1/2 weight, +1 mxdx, -2 ACP

Mark_CMG Give him a sword, we'll fix it in the mix.

deBhaal He just has fullplate.

Wolf72 Don't forget the repeating crossbow and rapid shot! (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72) Add that into the Stat Block. (grins)

Baastet Anyone know what the treasure types are in the Harpy?  Look in MM for me please?

deBhaal I got that, not rapid shot though.

Wolf72 (frowns)

alsih2o Standard for Harpy.

deBhaal No, he has a +1 battleaxze, CharGen won't put magic on the characters.

Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Standard.

Baastet Danke (thanks).

Mark_CMG Ah... (smiles)

deBhaal So... Who can I send it to?  ...or anyone know how I can get the Stat Block for it?

alsih2o For what deBhaal?

deBhaal The dwarf.

Wolf72 How about far shot?

deBhaal I don't know how to get it off of CharGen.  (then to Wolf72) Nope...

alsih2o Do we post our info here, Mark_CMG?

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) You might have to take a regular Stat Block and adjust it.

deBhaal ...focus, spec, exotic prof, mounted combat, mounty archery...

Wolf72 Sorry. (winks) ... guess I was thinking of a apache gunship.

deBhaal (laughs)

Mark_CMG http://www.d20statblock.org/standard/d20standard.html (to deBhaal) If you could each make a txt file with your info.

Wolf72 Doh! Lo siento, deBhaal ... forgot mounted archery!

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Except for the map, of course (regarding txt files).

Wolf72 Umm, yeah ... hold on.

alsih2o (to Mark_CMG) Like in notepad?

FastLearner Should I just label a few of the spires with numbers, and we'll only reference some of them, or what?

deBhaal I can't make a txt file with it ... it wont let me save it as such. (frowns) ...or specify what to save it as either

Umbran Can you copy-paste the text to something?

FastLearner Any thoughts?

deBhaal Not with CharGen, I could write it, then type it up ... but thats a lot of writing... I need E-tools.

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Add a bunch of numbers. (smiles)

Wolf72 OK... I have it in word now what?

FastLearner (to Mark_CMG) OK, (it's a done) deal.

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72)  Change it to a txt file, please.

deBhaal Notepad?

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal)  I hear ya. Yup, Notepad.

Wolf72 Done...

Mark_CMG Did you check out that link I gave you, deBhaal? http://www.d20statblock.org/standard/d20standard.html

deBhaal Yeah.

Mark_CMG Grab a Stat Block from there, and make a few adjustments to it.  We've got time.

deBhaal OK.. can do that.

Wolf72 Can I attach in here?

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72) Send it my way by right clicking on my name scrolling down to DCC and then send (finding the file on your computer).

deBhaal Which form? ...compact, standard, or expanded?

Mark_CMG How about standard; split the difference, deBhaal.

Wolf72 That work?

deBhaal OK..

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) Use that Dwarf one (fourth one in standard).  That should make it easier

Wolf72 My girl friend says I should name the Griffon Geoffery 

Mark_CMG (grins) OK.  That's a good name for a Griffon steed. (grins)

FastLearner Saving out the map now.

Wolf72 Good grief!  Don't encourage her! 

Wolf72 Will the dwarf's name be Mutt?

alsih2o Whoops!  I just saw the standard part. (smiles)

Wolf72 Eek ... standard too late for me?  Do I need to resend?

Mark_CMG (laughs) (to Wolf72) That'll be OK.

Wolf72 OK.  I don't have the MM2 with the new and improved pounce rules.

Baastet Average HP or do you roll?

Mark_CMG (chuckles at Wolf72's statement)

Wolf72 Umm... I upped mine a wee bit from avg by 6pts.

Mark_CMG Average is OK.  Upped is good, too.

(Wolf72's brother usually gives monsters max HP)

Mark_CMG Ouch! (grins) (to Wolf72) I didn't get it yet, did I?

Wolf72 I will try again.

Mark_CMG They can also be emailed to - mark@CreativeMountainGames.com

Wolf72 (to alsih2o) I've got it. (smiles) It says 'awaiting reply'.

alsih2o OK.  I've emailed it to you, Mark_CMG.

Wolf72 Is that mine, alsih2o?

alsih2o I have gotten 3 from you, Wolf72.

Wolf72 Oops!

Umbran Okay, pardon my ignorance, but I lost the buffer when I had to reconnect - this is essentially a "create an encounter in parallel" thing going on? (smiles)

(Hildulf joins)

alsih2o (to Umbran) A confusing one. (smiles)

Hildulf We still going?

alsih2o Yes, creating an encounter, Hildulf.

Hildulf Level?

Wolf72 7...

Mark_CMG Hmm... Try that one more time, please.

FastLearner Is a 49k Jpeg OK?

Hildulf Cool.

Baastet  Trying to send, Mark_CMG.

FastLearner OK.

alsih2o Did you get my Email, Mark_CMG?

Mark_CMG Got Wolf72's Email.

Wolf72 Okay... I will email again anyway.

Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Waiting for DCC authorization.

deBhaal Me, too.  There it is. (chuckles)

Mark_CMG I've got deBhaal's dwarf?

deBhaal Yes!  Oskar (the Dwarf).

(Baastet sighs)

Mark_CMG Hmmm... (then to FastLearner) Try again and Baastet, try again, too.

deBhaal Hmmm...

FastLearner OK.

Baastet I'm trying again...

Mark_CMG Ah, Baastet, make it a txt file.  Doc files don't work for sending to me.

Baastet OK.

FastLearner Should I zip it if jpg won't work?

Mark_CMG Sure, email it, please.

deBhaal Hmmm...

Mark_CMG mark@creativeMountainGames.com

(deBhaal thinks about going and reading abit before bed)

FastLearner OK, emailing now.

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) We aren't done yet. (smiles)

deBhaal I know.

alsih2o But, debhaal, we are so close.

deBhaal That's why I'm just thinking about it now.  (smiles)

alsih2o OK. (smiles)

alsih2o Thanks for hanging.

deBhaal Am I hanging by a new rope? (smiles)

Mark_CMG We've got a few steps left. (smiles)

alsih2o You think you are that special (to be getting a *new* rope)? (smiles)

deBhaal Well, you have my fighter.  Yes, I do. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Baastet) All good.

deBhaal (laughs)

Baastet Yay!

Mark_CMG (grins)

deBhaal The Harpys?

Baastet Singluar Harpy.

deBhaal Ahh...

Baastet ...and she is named thank you.  (winks)

deBhaal My stereo is possessed... (laughs)

alsih2o My Gargoyles are unnamed grunts. (smiles)

deBhaal Volume fluctuates based on the song. (frowns)

Wolf72 Rock 1 and rock 2?

deBhaal (laughs)

alsih2o Redshirt 1 and 2. (smiles)

Baastet (laughs)

deBhaal Works (for me).

Wolf72 Give 'em max HP ... strong grunts. (smiles)

Baastet Well, if redshirts 1 & 2 fail to protect her she has an eversmoking bottle.... So she can make a fast get away.

deBhaal I'd have liked to give my character max HP ... but he got 40hp when I rolled, and when the CharGen rolled...so thought it was a good idea to give him 40...and his AC is kinda low for 4th level  though .. he only has a 19 (winks)

Wolf72 Eek, I had a thought about MM errata? ... Griffon Int is no longer a 5 is it?

Baastet The Harpy only has a 13 AC. 

Mark_CMG http://www.creativemountaingames.com/Desert_Spires.jpg  Here's the map.

Baastet Yay map!

deBhaal (chuckles)

deBhaal Wolf, oh well. (winks)

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72) Can you go to Wizard's site and check the errata?

alsih2o Good map!

Wolf72 Give the Harpy padded or Masterwork studded leather. (then to Mark_CMG) I've got it, just completely forgot. (frowns)

Mark_CMG OK.

Umbran Nice map.

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72) How different is it (from what you've sent to me)?

FastLearner Good deal, hope it will work out.  Happy to make any changes, they'll be quick.

Baastet But then I figure the Harpy will sit back and use her song and such to her advantage and let redshirts beat on people.

Griffon: CR 4; Large Beast; HD 7d10+21; hp #; Init +2 (Dex); Spd 30 ft., fly 80 ft. (average); AC 17 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +6 -natural); Atk Bite +8 melee (2d6+4),  2 claws +3 melee (1d4+2); Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 10 ft./5 ft.; SA Pounce, rake 1d6+2; SQ Scent; AL N; SV Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3; Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 8. 

Skills and Feats: Jump +8, Listen +6, Spot +11*.

deBhaal Pretty good map, made with what?

Mark_CMG Very nice map!

FastLearner Photoshop. Thanks, all.

deBhaal Cool. (smiles)

alsih2o Wow, love to see what you do when not pressured. (smiles)

Wolf72 That looks awesome, Mark_CMG!

FastLearner If you want different numbers or anything, it's a quick change.

deBhaal Hey, I need a few maps. (winks)

FastLearner (laughs), Thanks, alsif2o... You'll see a bunch of them when I launch my Encounters website late  this year.

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72) You mean "That looks awesome, FastLearner!"

Wolf72 Umm... Yyeah, that!

deBhaal (chuckles)

Mark_CMG I'm working on a similar idea, FastLearner.  We'll talk later, eh? (grins)

deBhaal If you have some leftover ones, I'll take'em. (smiles)

FastLearner Sounds great, Mark.

Wolf72 Sorry.  My girlfriend is distracting me on IM... wants to play a pixie and unicorn and have everyone get along *rollseyes.*

Mark_CMG OK.  Now look at the numbers on the map, OK?

deBhaal (laughs) Yep.

FastLearner Please, do. I labeled a few towers and one spot on the ground, but can easily add or remove as needed (very quick).

deBhaal Can't see much wrong long as the two 2's are identical.

Mark_CMG I suggest that number four be where the Dawrf on the Griffon is camped while seeking the same shrine that the party is seeking, OK?

FastLearner The 2s were intended to be, as homes for the Gargoyles.

deBhaal Ahh... That works. (then to Mark_CMG) Sounds fine to me.

Mark_CMG Let's have the Gargoyles each on a 2 (as suggested), OK?

Baastet (to FastLearner) (chuckles) Cool.  What self respecting Harpy would live with 2 Gargoyles anyways?  (winks)

Mark_CMG ...and maybe have three (indtead of one) of the Harpies on the 1?

FastLearner I figured they couldn't live *too* close to the Harpy... competing for the same food too much.

deBhaal Wouldn't mind making everything the dwarf has magical though. (frowns)

Mark_CMG Ah, and we need to use the number 3 as the shrine entrance, OK?

deBhaal Hmmm...  Sounds good.  What's in the shrine?

FastLearner Makes sense.

alsih2o The Gargoyles need no food.

Mark_CMG And....we'll need some sort of trap for the shrine entrance....maybe a CR 7?

FastLearner Ah, good point.

alsih2o MM, pg 94.

Baastet 3 Harpies for #1?

FastLearner Well, still, the Harpy would shriek at them a lot. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Sure, we'll split them off from the Gargoyles.

FastLearner I'm happy to label others, as desired.

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner)  Yes. lots of shrieking. (grins)

FastLearner Sandstone-colored Gargoyles, eh?

deBhaal Circumstance bonus to hide...

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Sounds good.

alsih2o Beautiful.

deBhaal Now if only my spelling were beautiful, too. (winks)

alsih2o Conglomerate/accretion magical beings.

Mark_CMG OK.  Now we need an opening description for each area that describes what someone would see when approaching those different numbers.  Who wants to write a brief paragraph on the harpies?

alsih2o Something that makes the strong sense of the vertical more obvious.

Mark_CMG ...and on the Gargoyles. (FastLearner? Since you said they were sandstone) (grins)

FastLearner Indeed, sandstone-colored... sure, I'll write something up.

Mark_CMG And a brief description of what the Dwarf will do when someone comes down the road?

Wolf72 Not much of a fluff person ... but there needs to be horse bones around ... possibly one that had the previous darkwood barding.

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72) You develop the trap, please.

deBhaal Well... He (the dwarf) is NE, so he is likely to parly a bit, too.  See if he can get something of an advantage.

(CMG_Nichar joins)

deBhaal ...and if not, the dwarf can fly up.

Mark_CMG OK, deBhaal.  Open a notepad and jot down a brief description of how the Dwarf guards the road, OK?

Wolf72 Eek!  To the shrine?

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72) Sure.

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72)  Got your DMG?

Wolf72 Yup.

(CMG_Nichar has all his books)

Mark_CMG Make something original but use the DMG as a guide for the CR, OK?

Wolf72 Got it.

Mark_CMG Welcome back, CMG_Nichar.

Mark_CMG OK, alsih2o, I need a brief paragraph that describes the whole area, OK?

alsih2o Good 'nuff.

Mark_CMG Kinda the whole valley thing. (to Baastet)  What do we have you doing?

Wolf72 CR 7 for trap, too?

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72) Or 8, if you like?

Wolf72 OK.

Mark_CMG (grins)

CMG_Nichar Dragons Forever!

Mark_CMG (to CMG_Nichar) Can I get you to stat a desert dragon of some kind for a level 7 encounter?

CMG_Nichar Desert suggests Blue Dragon...  Are we keeping this open content or no?

Wolf72 Thinking portuclas trap (to keep them in, and anyone aiding out) ... so far CR 2.

Baastet (to Mark_CMG) I was finishing the other 2 Harpies.

Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Ah, no problem.  Thanks.  I figured on just using the one Stat Block for all three. (grins) I'm like that. (winks)

(CMG_Nichar has noticed that)

Baastet (chuckles) Well, I made 2 regular but then one slightly tougher...

Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Can I get you to write a brief description of what someone will see if they encounter the Harpies at their location?

FastLearner Here http://www.danheller.com/mon-val-buttes.html is a page with the spires of Monument Valley, along the lines of what I was thinking, but obviously feel free to describe whatever.  Hmm, maybe I should have put some brush on the map

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Did you write something?

FastLearner Still writing, almost done.

Mark_CMG Okie doke. (smiles)

FastLearner No, that link is just pictures of desert spires.

deBhaal (to Mark_CMG) What did you think?

Mark_CMG I haven't read anything, I'm just facilitating the pieces, and I'll put them together in a PDF for our final piece when we're all done. (smiles)

deBhaal Ahh...

Mark_CMG That way we'll have something we can all use later.

deBhaal Yeah.

(Baastet is still writting)

Mark_CMG No problem.  We have time.

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) Need something to do?

deBhaal (chuckles)

Mark_CMG Wanna take a short break?

deBhaal Possbily.  Depends on what you have in mind.

Mark_CMG Go get a soda? (grins) Or... Maybe...  We still need to decide on what exactly is the reason for the shrine to be there.  But we should all do that together I think.

deBhaal Probably.

(CMG_Nichar has Juvenile Blue, Brass, and Copper Dragons)

Wolf72 Dunno but I was thinking of the spell trap to summon a bunch of axiomatic warriors to defend it ... after the port drops (smiles)

deBhaal I don't even know what's in the shrine. (smiles and laughs)

Mark_CMG Me either! (grins and laughs) But we know it is in a desert

deBhaal (laughs)

Mark_CMG And maybe old...

CMG_Nichar Argh!  Drop the copper... CR 8 for that one.

deBhaal ...and its a shrine!

Mark_CMG I know! (laughs)

deBhaal Maybe dedicated to some forgotten goddess?

Mark_CMG And we need an evil one (dragon), I think, CMG_Nichar.

CMG_Nichar Juvenile blue dragon: CR 7; Large Dragon (Earth); HD 15d12+45; hp 142; Init +0; Spd 40 ft, fly 150 ft (poor), burrow 20 ft; AC 23 (-1 size, +14 natural); Melee bite +18 (2d6+4), 2 claws +13 (1d8+2), 2 wings +13 (1d6+2), tail slap +13 (1d8+6); SA breath weapon; SQ sound imitation, immunities, blindsight, keen senses; Face/Reach 5 ft by 10 ft / 5 ft; AL LE; SV Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +11; Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14.

Mark_CMG (to CMG_Nichar) Could you make a txt file and DCC send it to me?

CMG_Nichar Sure.

Mark_CMG That's our big bad! (grins)

deBhaal Exactly! (grins)

Mark_CMG But what is he guarding...?

deBhaal It's got to be something enticing ... to keep the dragon there.

alsih2o A vein of rare blue copper?

deBhaal Maybe the dragon can't get to it...

Mark_CMG Excellent.

deBhaal That's why the dragon is there.  It's looking for someone to get it out for him then kill 'em and take it.

CMG_Nichar (to Mark_CMG) There are 2 dragons in that file.

Mark_CMG Ah, OK.

FastLearner Is this the kind of description you mean, or is it too flowery and such? Small chunks of rock seem to have fallen off the top of the nearby spires, tumbling down the sides, but as they plummet you see them suddenly sprout some kind of wings, diving towards you. The two rock-COLORed creatures are roughly man-sized, but sport long cruel horns, wicked claws, vicious fangs, and deep, red, glowing eyes. A Wilderness Lore or Knowledge (Nature) DC 20 check will reveal them to be some form of desert-adapted Gargoyles.

Mark_CMG (to CMG_Nichar) Two sevens make a ninth level encounter. (to FastLearner) Change to a txt file and send, please. (smiles)

FastLearner Gotcha.

deBhaal Would work for the scale-up.

CMG_Nichar (to Mark_CMG) One is Blue, the other is Brass.

Mark_CMG Brass, eh?  Cool.

deBhaal Brass is CG ain't it?

CMG_Nichar (smiles) Yes.

deBhaal (smiles)] I know my rogue could probably sneak up on the dwarf... Probably not the Griffon though.

FastLearner Sorry, folks, I've got to run and make dinner for the family.  It's been fun, and I look forward to future chats.  Let me know where I can get the finished product, if you would.

Baastet Is that what you want, Mark_CMG?

alsih2o Thanks for coming, FastLearner.

(Hildulf left)

(FastLearner Quit)

(Umbran Quit)

Mark_CMG Got it, Baastet.

Baastet Cool.

Mark_CMG They're dropping like flies! (grins)

Baastet Can you look at it and see if that is what you were looking for?

(CMG_Nichar wishes that he had felt better so that he could've stayed longer)

Mark_CMG I'm sure it will be fine, Baastet. (smiles) (then to CMG_Nichar) No problem.

(Wolf72 still working)

Mark_CMG We'll do this again in the future.  (to CMG_Nichar)  Here's the map link - http://www.creativemountaingames.com/Desert_Spires.jpg

CMG_Nichar OK.

Baastet Okies then I am off for some quality snoozes.  (It's 5 am here.)

Mark_CMG OK.  We need a reason why there is a shrine, a reason why the Blue dragon is guarding it, and why it is in the desert.

(Baastet waves sleepily)

deBhaal (laughs) Night.

Mark_CMG Nite, Baastet and thanks!

alsih2o A rare vein of blue copper... Peace, Baastet.

Baastet No problem.   My pleasure....

deBhaal That would be why the dragon is guarding it.

Mark_CMG Ah, yes, the Blue copper.

Baastet Be good to my Harpy ladies. (winks)

deBhaal ...but why is the shrine there?

alsih2o See you soon, Baastet.

deBhaal ...because of the copper?

Mark_CMG What is the use for the Blue copper (in ancient times?)

deBhaal Bye, Baastet.

(Baastet left)

alsih2o It is a shrine to a dwarven god, where the mine was before the dwarves left to keep the copper secret.

deBhaal I don't think its any different than normal but a dragon would want it because its rare.

Mark_CMG Oh yes, an ancient Dwarven God.  That's why the Dwarf is coming there, eh?

deBhaal (grins)

alsih2o Like russian salt mines, they had an underground shrine.

deBhaal Well..  The dwarf would be coming to take the copper...

Mark_CMG And maybe the Dwarves of old drove out the Blue Dragon's ancestors?

alsih2o ...but the dwarves were removed to keep the blue copper more secret, of course (smiles)

Mark_CMG That sounds good.

deBhaal Yep.

deBhaal My creativity is shot tonight... At coming up with something anyway...

alsih2o The Gargoyles and the Harpy are ignorant, and just searching for food and fun.

Mark_CMG Shall I work with what we have and throw something together before the next chat session?

alsih2o Yes, do.

Mark_CMG (to Wolf72)  How you doing there?

deBhaal The Gargoyles could have been guards.  They don't age do they?

Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) Good point.

Wolf72 Okie dokie...  Here's the trap...  Needs some fleshing out though...

Mark_CMG Maybe the Gargoyles are cursed Dwarves?

deBhaal (chuckles)

alsih2o Oooh, slumbering gaurds awakened and controlled by the Harpy. (smiles)

deBhaal ...or the Dragon.

alsih2o Oh, yeah!

Mark_CMG ...or mindlessly cursed?

Wolf72 EL 8, 9 CR 2 baddies (well 8, plus one CR 2 trap)  Thats the type of thing the dragon would do.

alsih2o 3 good options. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Convert to a txt file and send, Wolf72?

deBhaal (smiles)

Wolf72 On the way. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Thanks.  OK, everyone.

Wolf72 Hope I helped!

Mark_CMG I think I have all of the basic components I need to put this together before the next session. (in two weeks)

CMG_Nichar (to Wolf72) Why did I get that?

alsih2o Cool.

deBhaal (smiles)

Wolf72 Good grief!!! 

Mark_CMG I'll be sure to drop people a line when I have the rough draft.

deBhaal (laughs) Works for me.

Wolf72 Tired here... (smiles) ... hold on mark ... going to you now. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (chuckles)

deBhaal It was the '@' (winks) Confused the poor guy. (winks)

CMG_Nichar OK.

Wolf72 That make it to you?

Mark_CMG Some traps! (smiles)  They went right for CMG_Nichar?!?!  Got em now. (grins)

CMG_Nichar (smiles)

deBhaal (laughs)

Wolf72 He should'a searched!

alsih2o Eek! Duck CMG_Nichar!

Mark_CMG (laughs)

(CMG_Nichar sneezes)

deBhaal (laughs) That works, too.

Wolf72 Look out there's 8 summoned warriors drawing their swords! ... who'll come out on top?

Mark_CMG I'll send you all an email and we can hash it out further in the thread on EN Boards. (when the boards come back)

CMG_Nichar Me.

Wolf72 (smiles)

alsih2o Thanks for hosting, Mark_CMG.

Mark_CMG Thanks, to everyone, for participating.

deBhaal Got my email, Mark_CMG?

CMG_Nichar OK. (smiles)

deBhaal Addy, I mean?

Mark_CMG It's been a good first session, I think.

alsih2o Agreed.

deBhaal Yeah, I think so, too.

Wolf72 If the boards not up, Email?

alsih2o Almost lost focus, but I pulled it back.

Mark_CMG deBhaal, Email me once at mark@creativemountaingames.com

deBhaal OK.  Just too get my addy?

Mark_CMG Yup. (grins)

alsih2o Prize!  We forgot the bumper stickers. (smiles) 

Mark_CMG We'll get everyone's addresses later that helped build this.

alsih2o Sure.

deBhaal Sent. (smiles)

Mark_CMG And alsih2o will send you each an "i r.p.g." bumper sticker.  OK?

deBhaal (laughs)

Wolf72 I'd love that!

CMG_Nichar Cool.

Mark_CMG That work for you alsih2o?

alsih2o Sure.

Mark_CMG Excellent.

alsih2o Just get me a list of addresses.

deBhaal OK.

Mark_CMG Thanks again, to everyone, and we'll catch you on the boards later this week.

deBhaal OK.

alsih2o Peace, all!

deBhaal What section of the boards?

Mark_CMG I'll bump the chat thread.  (grins)

deBhaal Hmmm...

Mark_CMG So bookmark that later when you get the chance (General Boards).

deBhaal I normally only visit the first three forums.

deBhaal OK.

Mark_CMG I'll email the link.

deBhaal (smiles)

(chatdemon joins)

deBhaal Welcome back.

Wolf72 General forum works (on EN Boards).

chatdemon Yo.

deBhaal Missed it all!! (smiles)

Mark_CMG Howdy Rich.  Just shutting down.  Sorry.  (frowns)

chatdemon No problem.

Mark_CMG Two weeks from today, we do it again. (grins)

Wolf72 Monday?

Mark_CMG Yup.

chatdemon Cool, I'll try and make it.

deBhaal Works for me.

Wolf72 Ooooh ... (smiles)

Mark_CMG Excellent!

Wolf72 I can do that.

Mark_CMG Every two weeks we should be doing this unless there is something big that comes up, like a server problem or something (then we'd reschedule).

deBhaal November 4th.

Wolf72 I'll as much as I can, even if to just watch. (smiles)

deBhaal Yeah, something like that.

Mark_CMG OK.

Wolf72 November 4th it is then.

deBhaal (smiles)

Mark_CMG Thanks again everyone!

deBhaal No problem.

(chatdemon left)

Wolf72 Hasta la bye-bye!

Mark_CMG Night.

(Wolf72 left)

alsih2o Peace!

End of #CMG buffer    Mon Oct 21 22:20:37 2002[/COLOR]


----------



## Crothian

So, what topics are being brought up for this upcoming chat?


----------



## Mark

Crothian said:
			
		

> *So, what topics are being brought up for this upcoming chat? *




We can throw around some potential topics for the chat in this thread and I'll finalize it based on what is suggested and who will be attending. 

I'll also add the transcripts from the three seminars that I hosted at cybercon last weekend.  The topics round-tabled in those three sessions were-

NPCs: From the Inside Out

When PCs aren't the Center of the Universe

and

Operation Left Turn: Plot Twists on the Fly

Keep an eye on this thread (and bookmark it) for more on those!


----------



## alsih2o

friendly reminder! this monday!


----------



## Buddha the DM

Monday you all say... Yes this monday is the next chat!!


----------



## Shadeus

How about implementing prestige classes into a campaign.


----------



## Mark

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *friendly reminder! this monday! *




_Thank you very much._ 



			
				Buddha the DM said:
			
		

> *Monday you all say... Yes this monday is the next chat!! *




Howdy!  I hope you're feeling better. 



			
				Shadeus said:
			
		

> *How about implementing prestige classes into a campaign. *




Oooohhh...  I like that.  Maybe we should broaden the topic to introducing new (homespun and third party) material in general?


----------



## Wolf72

If we come can we just watch? just kidding!


----------



## Buddha the DM

Yeah I am much better now thank you. I should be able to hang around longer this monday. That is if the real world doesn't intrude on the chat.


----------



## Mark

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> *If we come can we just watch? just kidding! *




_Like you could keep your fingers from the keyboard for that long..._ 



			
				Buddha the DM said:
			
		

> *Yeah I am much better now thank you. I should be able to hang around longer this monday. That is if the real world doesn't intrude on the chat. *




Glad to hear you're much better!  Just be sure to take the phone off the hook, put the cat outside, and hit the pause button on your remote control of the planet!


----------



## Buddha the DM

Why do I have to pause my control of the planet?


----------



## Mark

Buddha the DM said:
			
		

> *Why do I have to pause my control of the planet? *




OK.  It really isn't fair of me to ask you to give up that control.  I take it back.  Please, continue to allow the earth to turn on its axis throughout the entirety of Monday night's DMing Chat session.


----------



## Piratecat

If I'm not out, I'll see you there!


----------



## Buddha the DM

K.. I'll try to be there.. I'd better or you'll have my head.. huh Mark.


----------



## Mark

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *If I'm not out, I'll see you there! *




Should be a blast.  Your insights on the topics are always very helpful to everyone!


----------



## Mark

Buddha the DM said:
			
		

> *K.. I'll try to be there.. I'd better or you'll have my head.. huh Mark.  *




_See you there, BtDM!_


----------



## the Jester

tonight! one night only (not really) 

mark makes a rare appearance(well, he is acyually around a lot) 

to answer all you questions(well, those involving d.m.ing) 

for only $39.95!(it's actually free )


----------



## Fast Learner

Ah, so it's tonight at 7pm Central, eh? That would be:

5pm Pacific
6pm Mountain
7pm Central
8pm Eastern
1am GMT

(A public service, not a bump!)


----------



## alsih2o

the above post by jester is actually be me, for some reason, ever since he visited my computer prefers to log in as him occasionally


----------



## Fast Learner

Gah! I bump it and then I miss it! Hope it was good! Any luck on the completed encounter from two weeks ago?


----------



## Mark

This chat session was much more of a round table event.  Lots of interesting conversation regarding DMing and adding new material beyond the Core Rules.  I'll have a transcript added to this thread sometime in the near future, of course.  Thanks to everyone who attended and the next session will be Monday November 18th at 7pm central.  Feel free to add some topic suggestions to this thread.


----------



## alsih2o

this one was a lot less structured, but definetely as useful.

 i am hoping the trend continues towards treating each subject more in depth....makes it all easier to absorb don't you know

 it was nice to know my gaming group and i aren't alone in a lot of our habits, and to se how we were different 

 thanks again to mark


----------



## Crothian

Okay, I'm zero for two on these things.  One of these days I'm going to remember or En World will be operational and I'll be able to read the thread and remind myself.  So, when't the next on?


----------



## Buddha the DM

Nov 18


----------



## Crothian

Buddha the DM said:
			
		

> *Nov 18 *




Thanks, I think I'll tattoo it to my forehead so I don't miss it this time.


----------



## Mark

Depending on the topics that need to be covered, and the size of the turnout for the particular chat, we'll continue to oscilate between formally moderated chat sessions, informal question and answer periods and full-fledged round-table events.  I think they will all serve to help us as DMs.


----------



## johnsemlak

What's the word on whether Dave Arneson can take part in this chat session?


----------



## Mark

I haven't heard anything just yet.  I'm sure if the dates and times I've suggested just won't mesh with their schedules, something can be arranged through EN World to facilitate a chat session with Dave Arneson and Zeitgeist Games.  We'll wait and see.


----------



## johnsemlak

I hope it works out.  Keep us posted.


----------



## alsih2o

maybe next time you could give us all a little input on npc's? maybe a little help from the your system of determining npc personality and traits?


----------



## Mark

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *maybe next time you could give us all a little input on npc's? maybe a little help from the your system of determining npc personality and traits? *




That may be possible.  Let's see how the offer to Zeitgeist goes.  I'm hoping to have a firm answer decently before the session they choose (if Monday night even fits their schedule) so that we can get the word out properly.  Nonetheless, that topic you suggest will absolutely be the focus of an entire session at some point.


----------



## alsih2o

well, if monday night doesn't work for them i am sure you could move it somewhat....there seems to be a growing audience..

 i would also appreciate a session or part of one on "the hook"


----------



## Mark

alsih2o said:
			
		

> * well, if monday night doesn't work for them i am sure you could move it somewhat....there seems to be a growing audience..*




I'd like to keep it on the Monday night track.  I think that the Wednesday night EN World chats might start up again before too long and, of course, the Mortality Radio shows are every other Friday.  Weekends are out, I believe.  With Monday, we never have to worry that it would be a two nights in a row thing (even if it needs to skip a week due to some scheduling conflict.)



			
				alsih2o said:
			
		

> *i would also appreciate a session or part of one on "the hook"  *




That's a damned good topic and one that we will definitely have to explore.


----------



## alsih2o

for you folks seperated from the net all weekend...it is this monday, come one come all, it has been a real barrell of monkeys so far


----------



## Crothian

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *for you folks seperated from the net all weekend...it is this monday, come one come all, it has been a real barrell of monkeys so far  *




So far I'm 0 for 2 in remembering.  So, I'm writing myself a note this time.  

Proffesion Potter 11 ranks, funny stuff.


----------



## Mark

Mon Nov 04 21:09:07 2002
(#CMG) Creative Mountain Games - Visit the CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/ 
CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!

(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)

Participating:

alsih2o
ascendence
Asmo
Cold_Beer
CMG_Nichar
deBhaal
Hildulf
Mark_CMG
Nightfall
Painfully
Piratecat
Shadeus
thalmin
Wolf72

Mark_CMG Howdy all! Let's get started. Tonight's topic - How to introduce new (homespun/third-party) material to your game. How many people here use additional material beyond the Core Rules?

Piratecat I do.

Hildulf I use plenty.

alsih2o I do.

Wolf72 Not much, haven't had many chances to, other than WotC supplements.

CMG_Nichar Me, too.

Painfully I've got new players with only core rules, but I use other stuff to DM.

thalmin I play my own game based on 3E.

Mark_CMG Let's go around the group, here, and talk about any problems that may have arisen from adding that new material. (to alsih2o) How about if you go first?

deBhaal I'm thinking about using Oathbound.

alsih2o Well, the normal balance arguments come out when anything new is brought into the game.

Mark_CMG (to alsih2o) What material have you added?

alsih2o Tome and Blood, Defenders of the Faith, Masters of the Wild, mostly WotC stuff. But whatever it is, the balance argument comes in.

Asmo I´m DMing for the first time, using core books only.

Wolf72 I've used the monster books, mostly players kept trying to second guess the monster with meta-game thinking.

Mark_CMG (to alsih2o) Why not all five class books?

alsih2o That's all we have purchased (so far).

Mark_CMG We'll get to everyone else in a bit.

CMG_Nichar I have tons of d20 books.

Mark_CMG (to alsih2o) Do you find that the other classes have as many options still?

alsih2o Well, we vote as a group what to accept.  We rotate DMing, which makes material acceptance an issue.

Mark_CMG That's a good policy (voting).  If you are comfortable with the group and do not wish it to remain purely a DM decision.

alsih2o We have been together for 17 years. (smiles)

Mark_CMG ...or rotating as you do (smiles)

alsih2o We're pretty comfortable.

Mark_CMG OK, let's check in with someone else.  How about CMG_Nichar?

CMG_Nichar Don't have a group (currently). I wish I did.

Mark_CMG Let's ask Piratecat then... (smiles)

Piratecat I pick and choose from most WotC and 3rd party splatbooks and hardbounds, taking the balanced and the best. The biggest problem is eliminating unbalanced material from otherwise decent works like Relics & Rituals. Adding monsters is no problem. Feats, spells & PrCs are. I generally add material only when a player asks, or when I need it for DMing.

Mark_CMG What are your parameters for determining balance?

Piratecat "Would I want to take this ("X"), or is it a hard choice?"

Mark_CMG Perhaps give us an example of each (balanced and not)? (smiles)

Piratecat I'm not near my books. All of the core PHB feats are balanced, and only a few spells bother me. But if you look at other supplements, you need to use a discerming eye. Example:...

Wolf72 IE: Some of the feats from the Rokugan source book (armor feats).

Piratecat ...from R&R1, a 1st lvl spell named "Salamar's Quiet Contemplation."

Mark_CMG We'll get to you soon, Wolf72. (smiles)

Piratecat A cool spell that makes someone non-violent... but it is 1st level, and the effect is PERMANENT.  Yikes!  You get the idea.  Adjusting material to the "feel" of your game is another issue.

Mark_CMG Okie doke.  (to ascendence) What's your take on determining what you will add to your game or not? (I'm going right down the list, so please be ready when I get to you. (smiles) )

ascendence I add to the game things that I like.  I add things that seem like good game design that fit.

Mark_CMG Any other parameters? What is your determination of "good"?

ascendence I know good game design when I see it.  Its like art, or music.

Mark_CMG Give me an example, then, please.

ascendence It has to be parsimonious and simple (easy to implement), yet capture the spirit of whatever its trying to convey.  Whirlwind Attack, for example.

Mark_CMG OK.  How about you, Asmo?

Asmo I´m DMing for the first time (long time player though), using core books only and the WotC splatbooks.  I´m adding some stuff from R&R 1 though. I´m running Sunless Citadel and it´s working out pretty well, I guess.  It´s fun and I want to improve as a DM.

Mark_CMG Did you find any difficulties in adding R&R stuff?

Asmo I don´t know if it´s going to be unbalancing.  I´m adding a bloodstone.

Mark_CMG Anything in particular that you think might be suspect?

Piratecat Yes.  It's not always easy to eyeball.

ascendence And I don't like having too many books.

Wolf72 I don't want too many books.  (Agreed)

Asmo ...but I felt that I wanted to give the players something (additional) for the good work (they've done).

ascendence I do have sort of a checklist... or a rubric (chuckles) for grading character classes, though.

Piratecat You've seen Ken Hood's material?

Mark_CMG okie doke.  How about you, Cold_Beer?

Cold_Beer uh....

Piratecat We're talking about adding 3rd party material into a campaign.

Mark_CMG We'll get back to you. (smiles) (to deBhaal) You have some thoughts, I'm sure. (smiles)

deBhaal I just put things in that I happen to like and can't see anything wrong with when I put it in.

Mark_CMG Like what in particular?

deBhaal Well, I'm thinking about adding Oathbound. It's not quite implementing but it is a change.  Normally I put anything in from the books I have, unless I see something about it I just don't like.

Mark_CMG What is it that you might have not put in, then?

deBhaal I'm trying to think...  I'm pretty easy about things that get in but there does seem to be a lack of monks in any of my games.

Mark_CMG Okie doke.  (to Hildulf) Any thoughts on this?

Hildulf I add most anything I see that's not obviously overpowering but a great many things are added from multiple sources.

Mark_CMG What do you feel is "obviously overpowering"?

Hildulf For instance, DragonLords of Melnibone...

Wolf72 Oooh! I have that one. (smiles)

ascendence Dragonlords is just badly designed.

Cold_Beer Believe it or not, I actually play in a trimmed down setting with less than the core rules in place...

ascendence "Obviously overpowering" is kinda relative.

Wolf72 When it requires some editing/tweaking.

Mark_CMG Let's let Hildulf have the floor, folks. (smiles)

Hildulf I bought this book with the idea of adding it in...  After reading, however, there was just no way.  I am, on the other hand, adding "Aerial Adventures" by Goodman Games.  This one is probably the easiest I've seen to implement with no major changes (aside from DragonStar.)

Mark_CMG What is it about Aerial Adventures that caught your eye?

Hildulf I love the flying cities and the capacity to have solid clouds on which certain critters nest.

Mark_CMG Cool.  (to Nightfall) How about you?

Nightfall Do you mind if I wait for P-Kitty to answer?

Mark_CMG Piratecat has answered.  We'll get back to you, Nightfall. (smiles) (to Painfully) How about you?

Painfully Well I got a relatively new group that has played 1st and 2nd editions.

Mark_CMG So all of 3E is new, eh?

Painfully They are about 5th level now and I am showing them the splat books from WotC.  They are about right for prestige classes now.

Mark_CMG Are you setting any guidelines on what can be used from the class books?

Painfully I am going to allow them to modify characters a bit to fit any PrC they might want.

Mark_CMG Retro-fit?

Painfully Yesterday we were discussing mercurial weapons.  I think they're just filler for the books more than a practical weapon.

Mark_CMG Many would agree.

Painfully We haven't had too many arguments but I am allowing most anything.

Mark_CMG OK.  (to thalmin) How about you?

thalmin I don't want to add anything that will be too difficult for me to challenge my players.  I try to not add anything that is more powerful than the core stuff.  Big problem is even I _(as a game store owner)_ can't keep up with all the stuff coming out to evaluate it.

Mark_CMG Do you have a guide of your own to determine if something is more powerful than Core stuff?

thalmin I just wing it, really.

Mark_CMG OK.

thalmin So far I've really only added Badaxe's stuff, plus a few home growns. (Or is that home groans?)

Mark_CMG (chuckles) Wolf72 must be champing at the bit to answer.  (to Wolf72)  What do you say? (smiles)

Wolf72 Umm... (smiles)

Mark_CMG Any thoughts from your perspective?

Wolf72 Actually, my rule of thumb is if it's to hard to use/implement, I don't use it.

Mark_CMG How do you know before trying?

Piratecat Good rule.

Wolf72 If I read it twice and am still confused, it's to much. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Ok, that works. (smiles)

alsih2o No AoO's (attack of opportunities)? (smiles)

Wolf72 There's lots I like but just don't use.  If they are too wordy or use too many rules.

Mark_CMG Has anyone not added in their initial thoughts on the subject?

CMG_Nichar If I could I'd use everything, and then roll with any problems that cropped up.  Provided I wasn't too confused on if it'd work together in the first place...  I have yet to figure out how to mix 3E and Star Wars

Hildulf 3e And Star Wars were some of the simplest...

Nightfall I like my present campaign online, even though it's not convetional.

Wolf72 My last DM used the vp/wp...  It was a lot of fun.

Piratecat Nightfall, how do you handle unbalanced Scarred Lands material?

Nightfall If you mean Salamar's Quiet Comtemplation, I don't.  Meaning I don't use it.

Piratecat Do you add other 3rd party stuff into your SL game?

Nightfall Sometimes.  I have used WotC substitution stuff but not their handbooks.  I didn't care for them.

Piratecat Substitution stuff?

Nightfall Manual of the Planes, Deities and Demi-gods, and most recently, the Book of Vile Darkness.  That stuff.

deBhaal Epic Level Handbook?

Nightfall No, I don't have that.

Piratecat Right.  Thanks!

Mark_CMG Let's open up the floor to talk openly about various specific cases where new material was introduced easily or with difficulty.

deBhaal I dont know I'm pretty sure my players will like Oathbound though.

alsih2o Well, my group thinks only two of the three core books are necessary, so it is always a struggle.

Cold_Beer Believe it or not, I actually play in a trimmed down setting with less than the core rules in place...

Mark_CMG How so?

Cold_Beer ...few new rules have been introduced but more have been taken away.  Less classes, spells, etc...

thalmin What did you take away?

Cold_Beer Bard, Mage, Monk, Cleric...

Piratecat No wizard?

Mark_CMG No clerics?

Cold_Beer Yup.

CMG_Nichar HERESY!

Wolf72 No religion?

Cold_Beer No religion.

Mark_CMG Perhaps, for us to get a better handle on your methods, Cold_Beer, you could give us a run down of your setting and ideas?

Cold_Beer Well, like I said, it's not my game, I just play in it...

thalmin I was thinking about something similar, maybe I'll try Swashbucklers. (ARRRR)

Mark_CMG As a player (who also DMs), how do you feel about it?

Cold_Beer The game takes place in a prehistoric continent...

thalmin He is at a disadvantage without magic...

Painfully My players don't have any clerics or wizards and at 5th level they are starting to feel it.

Mark_CMG (to Painfully)  What is the make up of your group?

Painfully Dwarf ranger, dwarf barb/rogue, and halfling thief, plus an NPC dwarf cleric.

Cold_Beer (continuing) Ah, not exactly prehistoric, either...  It's a nonstandard world like Empire of the Petal Throne...  As for 3rd party products, I usually get what I need for a situation...

Mark_CMG How does everyone, in general, deal with bringing in new monsters to their games?

Painfully (chuckles)  That's easy.  You see a _____ staring at you from the dark.

CMG_Nichar I just toss one in and watch the PC's scramble for cover.

Hildulf "You see -description-.... Now what?"

deBhaal I just bring them in since nobody knows every monster in the world.

Painfully I must say I don't like meta-gaming, though I hate it when the players second guess the monsters stats or abilities.   It happens in one of my other games.

Wolf72 After it bites a PC they usually realize it's a monster. (smiles)

Hildulf A certain amount of Meta-game thinking is to be expected...

Cold_Beer That depends...

Wolf72 ...but it seems that it takes up half the encounter.  "Let's play guess the monster!"

Asmo How long have you people DMed?

thalmin I tell them what they know from the Monster Manual is only rumor.

Hildulf It's rather difficult to completely divorce your personal knowledge from Character Knowledge.  (to Asmo) 23 years.

Wolf72 (to thalmin) I like that.

Cold_Beer I've been DMing for 15 years off and on...

Wolf72 Off and on, about 15 years as well.

thalmin I've been DMing 24 years.

deBhaal A couple of months...

Hildulf Unfortunately, for me, it's almost exclusively "ON".

Asmo I've been doing this stuff since August. (smiles)

Piratecat I've been DMing since... hmm... 1982 or so.

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) How do you deal with bringing in new monsters to your games?

Piratecat Piece of cake.  If there is no need for an established ecosystem, then I just plop 'em in.  Otherwise, I build up rumors of such things, or hints about them.  I also make sure they won't screw up an ecosystem.  But the world is big, and mysterious, and many odd things live in the dark places.

Hildulf A lot of times I'll add them in by putting them into the local arena.

Piratecat I have a sneaky method of avoiding meta-gaming.

Mark_CMG Yes?

Piratecat I take a monster, use the exact same stats (with maybe minor changes), and totally change the appearance.

Mark_CMG Such as...?

Painfully ...a sheep in wolf's clothing...

Piratecat Last game I had coin golems, made from old gold pieces.

alsih2o I like that.

Painfully Coin golems... Yummy.

Mark_CMG Using an Iron golem?

Piratecat They were just iron golems with cosmetic changes, but they freaked out the PCs.

Mark_CMG Very nice.

thalmin ALL monsters have to fit where they are, not just new ones.  No wild things right next to cities.

Piratecat Swapped the poison gas for a wounding breath weapon of sharpened coins, if I recall correctly.

Mark_CMG How many people use the DMG and MM to make new monsters (or even the PH and DMG to make new races)?

Hildulf Coin golem.... XP and GP in one sweet little package.

Piratecat Well, I bought that 3rd party races book.

CMG_Nichar I've made some new monsters.

Asmo I don´t.

Piratecat Haven't used it.

alsih2o I have tnkered with it.

Piratecat I make new monsters all the time.  Mostly, I just do it in my head and don't stat them out.

Painfully I like the Monsternomicon and have wanted to add some gunpowder to my game.  I was considering a gun-using-golem for a while but it just didnt fit in my campaign.

Piratecat For instance, the necropede in my story hour was originally an undead purple worm with some last minute special effects.  "Faking" monsters is easy, because the players never see the stats.

alsih2o We tend to have what we sarcstically refer to as "finch monsters"

Piratecat What are those?

alsih2o Like finches, the traits change every 60 miles.

deBhaal I just throw relevent things on a piece of paper, I'm the only one that can make sense of it.

alsih2o Lots of "subspecies"

Asmo It was great to introduce the Twig Blight from Sunless Citadel for veteran players.  They hate when they don´t know what they are up aginst.

alsih2o ...slightly different abilities, or alignments...

deBhaal Asmo, yeah, those were cool. (grins)

thalmin Most of my monsters are either new or have been modified.

deBhaal I'm the only one (in my group) with a 3E Monster Manual.

Piratecat Handy.

deBhaal One player just knows the monsters from 2E.

Mark_CMG (to thalmin) Do you have an example?

Hildulf I'm a huge fan of tacking templates onto existing critters.

CMG_Nichar That works.

Asmo "What?  A fortitude save?  We are only lvl 1?!?!" (smiles)

Piratecat My players are mostly experienced, so it's tricky to avoid meta-gaming.  I try to avoid too many templates, though; they can get silly.

deBhaal Well, one of my players has been playing since 6 years old and the other is new to the game.

Hildulf I don't mean multiple templates on the same critter. (smiles)

Piratecat Oh, right!  I think new monsters are the easiest thing to introduce.

alsih2o I agree.

Shadeus I know the DMG and PH like the back of my hand but I have never even read the MM.

Painfully Shame on you, Shadeus.

Shadeus I find as a player it ruins the disbelief.

Painfully But the MM is a core book. (smiles)

thalmin I just tweak anything so it isn't exactly as in the MM.

Piratecat Not for players it isn't.

deBhaal So is the DMG but players aren't supposed to read it.

Shadeus I own it of course (smiles) but I think about what was great for me about 1st-edition and it was not knowing that shrieker did no damage or that skeletons take half damage from edged weapons.

ascendence I know the PH and DMG pretty well, too.

Piratecat (to Shadeus) Indeed.

Shadeus (to thalmin) That works for groups who know the MM inside and out but it can lead to problems.

Mark_CMG Does anyone have questions for the room about adding new material, generally or specifically?

Shadeus Well, prestige classes specifically.  They are very campaign specific in my opinion...

Piratecat Trying to create new PrCs or judge new ones is really tough for me.

ascendence I don't think PrCs have to be necessarily campaign specific.

ascendence I find it's hard to create new PrCs, but I find its really easy to judge new ones.  I have a number criteria.

Shadeus (to Piratecat)  Especially since I feel some of the published material isn't all that balanced.

ascendence The number one being, "Would I ever care to play it?"

Shadeus (to ascendence)  Exactly.

ascendence "If I want to play it, is it just because its unbalanced, or does it genuinely add something to my character?"

Piratecat Oh, I can judge weenie ones; judging whether or not they're too powerful is tougher.

ascendence And "How does it compare to any other classes that are like it?"  I mean, there's a zillion archer and cavalry classes.

deBhaal That's how I do it...  "Can I imagine a character that would take it because it made sense, not for the benifits?"

Piratecat 4 archers, at least.

ascendence Since the vast majority of people play dungeon games, cavalry characters are a waste.

Shadeus (to Piratecat)  Do you add any new PrCs to your campaigns ever?

ascendence Though I'd consider playing a halfling cavalryman now. (smiles)

Piratecat (to Shadeus) Sure, all the time.

Shadeus How does it fit into the continuity of the story?

Piratecat We have a diviner/alienist/planeshifter, as a matter of fast.

ascendence I tend to think short-term rather than long.

deBhaal I think long term.

Shadeus Suddenly there is a force of dwarven fighters that are icons of law and defense...

Piratecat I try to create new PRCs that fit the feel of the campaign, and I disallow any that run against the feel.

ascendence My character is leaning towards Fighter/Bbn because I don't think the campaign will last long enough for me to make use of my PrC.

deBhaal I dont like Dwarven Defenders ... I play chaotic dwarves.

Shadeus I'm playing one now...they are great. (smiles)

Piratecat I have Dwarven Defenders playing a key campaign role.

thalmin PrC's should add color, not power.

deBhaal I'm sure they are ... but I don't play lawful well.

Painfully I agree with thalmin.

Piratecat Agreed; but they exist to let you do things that you couldn't do with multi-classing and feats.

Shadeus See?  That's just it, Piratecat.  How can a new PrC hold such a pivotal role in the campaign world?   That's the problem I see.

Piratecat Simple.  Plot is defined by the people and their positions, not by their classes.

Painfully I think the separation is whether you would allow those PrCs class benefits as feats or not... If it is really exclusive then it should be a PrC, otherwise let anybody take it as a feat.

Shadeus So basically if you have an NPC that fits the bill...

Piratecat Who knows whether that odd noble is a classed or unclassed or a Prestige classed NPC?  No one!  And no one will know if I add a new PrC to him.

Shadeus You just have then have levels of that PrC?  I see...

Piratecat I feel no guilt about changing NPC abilities around, as long as the PCs don't know much about them and haven't fought them before.  For instance, a bad guy in my game just became an elemental savant, because I finally read the PrC and said 'that fits!'  All the PCs know is that he's a 'fire mage'.

Shadeus Mark, will you put implementing any PrCs in your upcoming material?

Mark_CMG I believe that there are plenty of them available as is, but you never know.

Piratecat So true.

Mark_CMG What do you think isn't yet covered?

ascendence What's not covered?

Piratecat I haven't read most of the Mongoose books, but I want more psionic PrC's.

Mark_CMG If the class books are handled in the SRD, I may use some of that.

ascendence Good Bbn and Bard PrCs.

Piratecat Yes.  We need more bard PrC's.

Shadeus FFG's Path of Magic is fairly good for bards.

Piratecat I hear someone wrote a module that uses it. (smiles)

deBhaal We need some more really good rogue PrCs.

ascendence I should write up a mad piper PrC.  The Song and Silence PrCs were mostly a write off.

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) I have a signed copy of that module that I bought from Talon comics. (smiles)

deBhaal (to ascendence) Most of them, and I really like rogues.

ascendence The Path of Magic didn't have many PrCs that appealed to me.

Shadeus The alternate bard singing abilities, I thought, were brilliant.

Piratecat In Paths of Magic?

Shadeus Yes.

Piratecat I'll have to check it out.

Shadeus Basically, instead of singing, you could get chanting, dancing, or playing an instrument.

Painfully You'd would think bard powers would become stronger in groups...  It makes sense to me anyway.

Piratecat With Monte's alt.bard, they do. (then to everyone) One last question from me: anyone use alt.classes, such as a alt.ranger?

ascendence No.

Mark_CMG Good question

deBhaal I dont have any ... so not unless I make the alt.

Shadeus Yes.  We use Monte's ranger and have dabbled with his bard.

Piratecat Shadeus, too powerful or about right?

alsih2o ...and what about the netbook of classes?

Painfully I like the WoT forester, but my player uses the PHB ranger.

Shadeus (to Piratecat)  Well, I think the feat progression is a bit too much.  I would say 1/4 levels.  Instead I like the additional spells and he offers a feat called 'favored enemy strike' which adds the d6 to damage and makes favored enemy not suck so much.

ascendence Rangers really are very beneficial for their two-weapon fighting abilities.

Shadeus (to ascendence) Which I hate...

ascendence Which, by the way, I think are most beneficial to rogues or other people with sneak attacks.

Shadeus ...all the rogues who take 1 level of ranger.

thalmin I like the Woodsman from Wheel of Time.

Painfully I agree.

deBhaal I've never played a rogue that took a level of ranger...

Shadeus (to thalmin)  No spells for woodsman?

thalmin Correct.

Shadeus See?  I really think the spells make the ranger useful.  Somehow being able to cast 1 entangle is cool to me. (smiles)

ascendence Ranger/Rogue is the quintessential bounty hunter.

thalmin I've played a rogue who passed himself off a ranger

ascendence Especially if you allow urban rangers.  In which case it becomes even MORE of a no-brainer for Rogues to take a level of ranger.

Piratecat Too darn front-loaded.

Shadeus (to Piratecat) I agree... Even with Monte's ranger.

deBhaal That's why I dont play rangers...  They get nothing later on.

Shadeus ...the spells...

deBhaal ...or next to nothing.

Shadeus ...polymorph self... ...at level 16, is granted. (smiles)

deBhaal Yeah, but by that time you just get it cast on you, or have an item of it.

Shadeus Yeah, you are right.  I have no argument there.

Piratecat I was actually gaming with Monte when they had the discussion about how to make high lvl barbarians not suck.

Shadeus ...and?

CMG_Nichar (to Piratecat)  That had to be cool.

Piratecat I had been visiting friends at WotC for the day, and they were thrashing it out.

deBhaal ...but I'm not going to play somethign that only get spells at high levels unless your going to be able to cast effectively.

ascendence (to Piratecat) What did he say?  I like Barbarians, but my current Bbn is going to end up as a Bbn 2/Ftr N.

deBhaal somethign else I don't like is 'favored class'.  I understand it but that doesn't change the fact that I don't like it.

Piratecat What I remember most was when someone cast 'Identify'.  "That's not how it works," Monte said. "Yes. As of this morning," someone answered.  "Well, that isn't how it's going to work tomorrow!" he answered.  (grins)

Shadeus (laughs)

Piratecat Pretty funny.

ascendence Seriously though, what Bbn fixes did he propose?  New magic items are the most easy to insert.

Piratecat Don't remember - it was years ago.

Mark_CMG Let's talk about adding in new magic items?  Who has something they introduced and wished thay hadn't?

ascendence New magic items are the most easy to insert.

deBhaal Items are pretty easy ...

alsih2o We had a crystal ball problem.

Mark_CMG Or just a particularly useful new magic item either made up or gotten from a new source?

Painfully I got a cloud giant in my game...i didnt think he was tall enough so I made him 60' tall. (chuckles)

Mark_CMG (to alsih2o)  Do tell...

alsih2o Well, one person, while DMing, introduced a crystal ball and it got severly overused.

Piratecat I wonder if my PCs have too many or not enough items for their level.  I should check it.

deBhaal I like the whip in Bastion of Broken Souls...

CMG_Nichar (to alsih2o)  Started to use it as a phone?

thalmin I like to add magic items with no obvious combat use to see how imaginative my players can be.

ascendence Your villains should start taking countermeasures against crystal balls.

alsih2o ...so he eventually had the overuse attract its original owner.

Painfully I don't believe in random items...ever.  It needs to make sense for the NPC or monster where it is found.

alsih2o ...the original owner let us know he wanted it back, and was too much to argue with.

Shadeus We had an intelligent sword once that was deluded into believing it was the Sword of Kas. (smiles) It was a short sword I believe... (sword: "But I _AM_ the Sword of Kas...")

Piratecat (to Shadeus)  That's really funny.

Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) Any new items you have introduced to your game lately?

Piratecat I'm about to introduce a whole bunch.

Mark_CMG Such as...?

Piratecat The PCs have been shorted for loot recently, so they'll get a haul from where they are right now.

Mark_CMG Anything you can discuss that will be in the transcript without creating a problem for your game?

Piratecat Nope. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (chuckles) How about from days gone by?

Piratecat Let's see.  A sword with minor spell turning when drawn - very fun.

Mark_CMG How did that go over?

deBhaal I wouldnt mind having one of them but it could be almost abused.

Piratecat A cursed girdle of giant strength that makes you taller and dumber.  A crystal hypnosis ball that suckered the PCs into freeing an archdemon.

Painfully I like items that make you pay a price for their benefits. (smiles)

Piratecat I agree, Painfully.  The paladin's sword is intelligent and has a forceful personality.  I like that idea.  Once, an undead-slaying sword would force nearly unconscious PCs into combat against mummies.

Mark_CMG How about items and their histories?

Piratecat History is essential, especially when a PC is a bard.  I make stuff up, then tie it into plot later.

Mark_CMG Origins of items, like who made them and for whom they were made?

Piratecat More like who has used them, or where they're from.  You never know who might come looking for it later...

Shadeus I actually had a 2nd-edition intelligent flametongue in one of my games once.  It had a different personality for each "plus"

Piratecat And recognizeable items with unique features make for more interesting play.  (then to Shadeus)  Cool idea!

Shadeus (if you remember it was +1/+2 for avians/+3 reptiles, etc.  TSR didn't like the advneture though. (smiles)   I can't remember its name...maybe splinter.  Anyway, each personality had a different alignment  The base was neutral.  The most powerful (the +4) was neutral evil and that was against undead.  It caused some grief in the party especially when the sword tried to convince them that the lich was their friend.

Piratecat Beautiful. I once had an intelligent sword fall in love with a PC.

Mark_CMG Those are great ideas. (smiles)

Piratecat It got jealous of her other weapons.

Painfully I could see some inconsistency problems with that sword though.  Nobody would want to own it and contend with a multiple personality like that.  They might eventually "figure it out" though.

Shadeus Exactly right.  It did cause lots of internal problems in the party.

Painfully Once they figure it out it should be much better though.

Piratecat I also made a "magical" staff that was psionic.  Very effective at confounding the player.  It was imperious, and demanded it be polished before its powers would be used.  They knew it could do lots of cool things, but it would usually refuse.

Mark_CMG It's tough to resist the temptation of the power sometimes. (smiles)

alsih2o ...always... (smiles)

Shadeus I really think intelligent items are a great addition to a game, but they can really ruin a game as well.

Piratecat How so?

Shadeus If you look at Vault of the Drow, the PCs that came with it, their characters had several intelligent items.  Well, there always seems to be jealousy issues, at least in my group, with the one with the intelligent weapon getting all the attention (both good and bad, of course.)  I never claimed to be a great DM. (smiles)

Piratecat I never had that problem.

Piratecat On that note, I'm off!  Night, all, and thank you so much.  These chats are great, Mark.

Mark_CMG Thanks for participating, Piratecat. This is probably a good place to wind it down for all of us. (smiles)

alsih2o Well, thanks lots, Mark.

Shadeus Yeah, thanks, Mark,

CMG_Nichar This was fun listening to everything.

alsih2o Cool.

thalmin Thanks, Mark, see you Saturday.

Mark_CMG Thanks to everyone for participating.

Shadeus Bye.

CMG_Nichar Bye.

alsih2o Peace, Shadeus.

Mark_CMG See some of you at the Gameday! (grins)

alsih2o Peace, Mark. (smiles)

thalmin G'night all.

Painfully I'll see you there, then. (smiles)  Cheers!

Mark_CMG I hope to see all of you in two weeks at the next CMG DMing Chat Session! (smiles)  Good night!


End of #CMG buffer    Mon Nov 04 21:09:07 2002


----------



## Mark

CyberCon Seminar - "NPCs: From the Inside, Out"
Friday Oct 25 2002 8pm (central US time)
Mark Clover (Mark_CMG) of Creative Mountain Games - Visit the CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/ 
(CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!)

(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)

Participating:

Adam_F
BloodKnight
Dramen
LordVenger
Mark_CMG
Palcadon
Spiritual


Mark_CMG Hello to everyone and welcome to "NPCs: From the Inside, Out"  Although we'll discuss mechanics and how they play a part in NPC development, our main focus in this seminar will be how to deepen the personality of an NPC.

Spiritual Great!

Mark_CMG Just to tell you a little about myself, I am (as of yesterday) officially a "Greybeard" having just turned forty (winks)

Spiritual Ouch!

Mark_CMG (smiles) My love of RPGing began back in late 1974 when D&D first came on the scene.  I began as a player but was DMing games soon after that.  I've DMed for many groups, being in a large metropolitain area (Chicago) and have also run games at many conventions (GenCon as the biggest) and have run some online games both message board and IRC.  Just so I can tailor some of this seminar to each of you specifcally, can everyone give me an idea of their own experience, how long you've been playing, and also DMing, as well as what mediums you have used to run games?  Just go right ahead and type away folks! (smiles)

BloodKnight I have been on and off about DMing lately. I went to Basic DnD, passed the first two editions of ADnD, Storytelling with some White Wolf games, and back to DnD with third edition.  I am currently doing a campaign based on my own Tech Fantasy setting.

Adam_F I've been playing for about 13-14 years, and DMing for at least a decade. I've played in person in groups and at cons, online in irc or muds, and on openrpg/webrpg.. And e-mail games, too. (smiles)

Spiritual Playing since the late 80's DM and now game design. Mostly tabletop and have thought about online chat gaming but have not seen it done yet.

BloodKnight I use OpenRPG most of the time because I find it much easier and relaxing to DM then in front of a table.  There is also way more roleplaying in terms of internet RPGing compared to tabletop.

Dramen Well, I've been in and out of RPGs since High School, now 30, I rediscovered gaming about 4 years ago, first with Shadowrun and now I play AD&D 3rd Edition on the Scarred Lands theme with a small group every Sunday.  I've gamed Table Top, IRC and MUSH environments.  I've done some minor DMing in the past, mostly online, but I'm more of a player than a DM.

Mark_CMG It appears we have a real cross section of gamers here, along with varied mediums having been used.  To jump right into things, I'd like to know what sources people use other than their RPG books to build their NPCs?

Spiritual Movies, stories, etc...

Mark_CMG Personally, I find that short biographies of actual people are very useful, as well as using a simple thesaurus.

Dramen Asside the core books, I've used custom CharGen engines in MUSH environements, would PCGen be considered an outside source?  As it is a collection of many published materials, such as Dragon Magazine articiles...

BloodKnight To be honest, I don't use other sources.  Most of the stuff I just came up in my mind.

Adam_F Fiction books, combining elements of other different characters is the only thing that comes to mind. (smiles)

Mark_CMG This will, by the way, be a very interactive seminar, so feel free (since we have a small turn out) to jump right in with things as you wish. (smiles) (then to Dranem) Yup, all useful sources.

Spiritual Cool.

Dramen Since embarking in my current D&D group, I've had to get a subscription to Dragon Magasine, just so that I'd have time outside our RP sessions to read it. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Something I've always done, and also include in the releases I produce for Creativee Mountain Games is called the CMG PROSE System.  It breaks down the character in five areas and also includes several adjectives or adverbs to describe a chaarcter.  The name "PROSE", itself, is an acronym that stands for Politics, Religion, Others, Self and Economics.  I give each of these areas a number fom one to ten.  The various areas can all be high, low or anything in between, but it allows me to place a personal priorty for each NPC on each area.  For instance, if someone has a high value in Politics, but perhaps average in all others, they can be motivated by political means.  This does not mean they have to be a politician, just that politics is foremost in their thoughts.  I think most of us are familiar with the bartender who always has some take on politics, right?  Or even a shopkeeper who blames his business failures on oppressive taxation

Dramen Or at least the local events...

BloodKnight (to Mark_CMG) Where can I find information on this CMG PROSE System?

Mark_CMG (to Dramen) True.

BloodKnight Or has competition with other merchants. (winks)

Mark_CMG (to BloodKnight) It is in the CMG products, but I'll give you a good run down of it here (for those who don't wish to buy products from me). (grins)

Dramen Then there's the General Store merchant who knows all the juicy town gossip...

Mark_CMG I'm not here to sell you things, but I certainly wouldn't discourage it either.  (winks)  If someone has a higher value set on the Religion aspect, then they tend to have a spiritual nature.  And again, I want to emphasize that none of these high values have to force an NPC into a particular calling or job.  A very religious person can just as easily be a beggar as a priest.

Dramen Or could be that bum that roams around fortelling the doom of the land... (winks)

Mark_CMG Others is an aspect that helps determine how much value an NPC places on what other people are thinking, and how much they wish to allow that to guide their lives. (to Dranem) Very true, also.  (Continuing)  If someone has a high aspect rating for Others, they can tend to be quite selfless, always looking out for "the other guy" or society at large  Further, in the CMG PROSE system the "S" stands for self, and is all about looking out for number one.  The greedy merchant, while possibly having a high rating in Economics, would also have a high rating in Self  All of the aspects can be utilized with one another to show the motivations of any NPC as well as to allow for a DM to do it quickly, at a glance, as it were.  It's very simple to just jot down the five letters of PROSE and add a number from one to ten, along with the usual stats, physical description and other details, but it is also far easier during play to be able to simply glance at those ratings on the fly.  The second part of the system that I use includes "three key words."  Once you've introduced an NPC by giving a physical description, it helps a lot to cement that person in player's minds by describing their manner.  Any three adjectives or adverbs will do, and when you have created the NPC ahead of time, it is very easy to jump into that NPC's character during play when you have those key words handy.  If you like to create things while playing, just thumbing through a thesaurus can allow you to come up with such a manner on the fly.  There are also lists of such words that can be found online using any search engine with the field "lists of adjectives or adverbs" or "list of traits."  A lot of the sites that you will find in that way will be geared toward personality classifications and such.  Do most of you use Google as a search engine?

Dramen You know that's the second time that's come up tonight... 

Mark_CMG (smiles)  It's a very useful tool, no doubt.

Dramen I've ocasionally used Google, but obviously not in the way others do.... (smiles)

Mark_CMG Can I ask a couple of you to open a second window and do a quick Google search right now?  Search by "personality traits" please...  Whether it was a relative of a player character, a tavern keeper, just some fella on the street that was asked for directions.  Anything at all.

BloodKnight (Regarding one of his NPCs) He is very picky when it comes to food, arrogant, and has this cocky attitude

Dramen Well, I don't know about an important role, but on one Star Wars MUSH I had an R2 Droid that had quite an interesting personality.

BloodKnight But his knowledge about the wilderness is above normal and something that makes druids hate him in fact and he is slow to temper

Mark_CMG So, BloodKnight, you had a strong background that helped set up the ranger's motivations and included a flaw that led to some nice story hooks, eh?

BloodKnight in my tech fantasy campaign, he takes a job as a guide for both nobles and adventurers alike

Mark_CMG Dranem, what in particular made the droid "interesting?"

BloodKnight is prices are usually steep but he always seems to be working with someone else because of his high prestige

Mark_CMG Blood, so he is also useful to further the game and not just as a side player

BloodKnight at one time, he admitted to the PC Party that he was working with one of the PC's parents.  He is useful as both (winks)

Mark_CMG (smiles) I think it is important at this point to mention something that BloodKnight has brought up.  That is the importance of having a "character flaw"  Something very important to creating a compelling situation for the players is to find ways to introduce conflict.  Even if it is inherent in the NPC's background.

Dramen Introduce a Chaotic Neutral Thief to a party, and you have a good amount of conflict to keep the game on its toes... (smiles)

Mark_CMG It creates a sense that something is always happening, and it keeps the players interested in things.

Adam_F I've found systems like GURPS and Hero work well for giving your characters flaws to be roleplayed, and since you get points back it encourages PCs to take them as well.

Mark_CMG You never really know what in particular the players will pick up on and decide to follow, so leaving as many options as possible allows them a great game

BloodKnight To be honest Adam, a character isn't realistic if they don't have a flaw.  (to Mark_CMG)  I don't see why a system would be needed

Mark_CMG Well, Blood, someone can be perfect...to a fault. (winks)

Adam_F Its just handy to encourage it. There are way to many perfect unflawed dnd characters. But very few GURPS (smiles)

Dramen Shadowrun has a great system for Flaws... 

Adam_F Its also nice to have a good list of quirks and mental and physical limitations you can pick and choose from in a hurry

Dramen Actually encourages you to pick up Flaws for your character to give you bonus building points.

BloodKnight Adam - I don't mean just on a character sheet.  I mean personality and such.

Adam_F Dranem: Yeah Shadowrun is another one like that. There have been many. Ars Magica comes to mind too

Mark_CMG Rather then get into a system vs system debate, shall we build something together?

BloodKnight The character becomes a cardboard cutout if he doesn't have a flaw.  (to Mark_CMG) Be my guest...

Adam_F Bloodknight: GURPS has mental disadvantages like prejudices, phobias, bloodlust, etc. (to Mark_CMG) Sure! (smiles)

Mark_CMG Blood, please use the dice roller to roll a ten sided die to determine the Political rating for an NPC.  Adam, do the same for the Religion rating, please.

( Adam_F rolls 1d10 => 1 ) 

( BloodKnight rolls 1d10 => 4 ) 

Mark_CMG and Dranem, please roll one for the Others rating...

Adam_F Religion? What's that? (chuckles)

BloodKnight ha, beat cha (winks)

Mark_CMG Blood roll again for the Self rating

Dramen Not very Religious and the NPC doesn't care much about Politics...  Sounds like me (smiles)

( BloodKnight rolls 1d10 => 7 ) 

Mark_CMG Dranem? Did you roll for Others?

BloodKnight He didn't...

( Dranem rolls 1d10 => 2 ) 

Dramen Sorry, didn't know you wanted me to....

Mark_CMG And Adam again for Economics, please

( Adam_F rolls 1d10 => 8 ) 

Mark_CMG P=4 R=1 O=2 S=7 E=8

Adam_F There we go, high Economics and Self.  (smiles)

Mark_CMG So we have an NPC who is strong toward Self but very high in Economics, eh?  I need three adjectives or adverbs for this fellow

Dramen So he's a greed Self Centered guy with some leaning on politics...

Mark_CMG How about one from each of you.

Adam_F Weasly.

Mark_CMG I like that. _Weasily..._

Adam_F Yeah there is an I in there.. Weasily..

Dramen Self-Centered

Mark_CMG Okie doke.  Weasily, Self-Centered, and...?  Who has a dictionary handy? DMs without Dictionaries?

Dramen So he's a Selfish Self-Centred Weasel that hates Religion. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Dranem, Adam, Blood, do any of you have a dictionary?

BloodKnight I can't think of one... (winks)

Dramen It's around here somewhere... Open up word and check the Thesaurus. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Best to grab a regular dictionary, please. (smiles)

Dramen That went to school with my kids...  They don't bring it home often.

Adam_F  I usually use dictionary.com, but hae a thesaurus handy.

Mark_CMG hmmm... Well, tell you what.  Someone give me a descriptive word that begins with the letter "D" please.

Dramen Drunk?

Adam_F Daring

Mark_CMG Okie doke, let's go with daring.  Drunk might be over-used, eh?  And we'll need one more.

Adam_F Impotent

Mark_CMG OK. (chuckles)

Dramen (laughs)

Mark_CMG That'll work and, please, one more time.

Adam_F Sentimental.

Mark_CMG Very good.  So let's take Daring, Impotent, and Sentimental as our three "key words"  To recap, we have P=4 R=1 O=2 S=7 E=8  Since not everyone here has played all of the same systems as everyone else, but all of you have used a fantasy/medieval setting at some point, let's place our NPC there.

Dramen Our Selfish Self-Centered Weasel is quite at odds with himself... (smiles)

Mark_CMG My first instinct is to toss out the first three words that come to mind because they often don't add to the NPC, but rather just reinforce what is already in my mind from the ratings.  To add to the dimensions of the NPC, I like to choose random adjectives and adverbs

Adam_F Makes sense.

Mark_CMG It keeps me from falling into a rut when creating them.

Dramen I see your point.

Mark_CMG ...and often helps me to come up with combinations I wouldn't have.  So let's have some ideas for a profession in this setting.  Give me a profession that begins with the letter "L"

Adam_F Herbalist.

Dramen Well with the S=7 and E=8 I would put him as a merchant of sorts.

Mark_CMG Let's ignore the ratings for now and not let them influence the profession.

Adam_F Librarian.

Mark_CMG I like Librarian.

Palcadon (to Mark_CMG) Just stopping in to watch...

Mark_CMG Someone roll a d100 to give him an age...

( Dranem rolls 1d100 => 57 ) 

Mark_CMG Howdy Palcy! (smiles)

Adam_F Old librarian. (smiles)

Dramen If he's human...

Mark_CMG Someone roll a d6 1-3 male 4-6 female

( Dranem rolls 1d6 => 2 ) 

Dramen male

Mark_CMG OK. He's a 57 year old, male librarian, daring, impotent (and that's not necessarily to do with the sexual conotation) sentimental but also rather selfish and economically driven.

Dramen Not to mention a mild interest in Politics...

Mark_CMG (to Dramen) True.  (Continuing) Can you see how easy it would be to have this NPC answer any questions posed by a player during a game?

Adam_F I get the impression with the impotent and high economic and slightly high politics, he probably wishes he was running the library and making more money but is stuck shelving books. (smiles)

Mark_CMG That would work very nicely.  How would you allow the daring part to manifest itself?  Perhaps he purposefully mis-shelves books to get back at his superiors?

Adam_F Perhaps thats why he never advanced is he always took risks and got in trouble.

Mark_CMG (smiles) I like that even better.  OK, let's take him for a spin.  Who wants to try and play him first?

Dramen In most medeival settings, the Librarian runs the show....

Mark_CMG Anyone want to volunteer?  There's no right or wrong way to do it.

LordVenger I wish I had joined this discussion earlier.  It looks interesting...

Dramen I will take on the role of a Mage looking for some archane lore.

Mark_CMG OK.  Someone roll a d6 (1-2 Adam 3-4 Blood 5-6 Dranem)

( Adam_F rolls 1d6 => 2 ) 

( LordVenger rolls 1d6 => 5 ) 

Adam_F Doh!

( BloodKnight rolls 1d6 => 6 ) 

Adam_F I like Venger's roll better.

LordVenger (laughs)

Dramen (chuckles)

LordVenger That depends... (laughs)

Dramen Ok, Dranem the Mage is looking for books on old lore.

Mark_CMG (to Adam) OK.  You are the Librarian, try to play him with his motivations in mind.  Dranem, you play the mage looking for the lore and LordVenger, how about you be a cleric?  Remember, we're just playing through some verbal interaction, not trashing the library. (winks)

Adam_F Okay, got it.

LordVenger Ok Ill try (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Palcadon) How about if you be the fighter, please.

BloodKnight I have to go but nice seminar!

Dramen Aww... I wanted to trash the library. (winks)

Mark_CMG DM With a Vengeance, feel like jumping in as a Rogue of some sort? (to BloodKnight) Thanks for participating! (smiles)

Dramen The Mage looks around thinking 'You know one fireball in the right spot would make a good bonfire in here... ' (smiles)

Mark_CMG Okie doke.  You're all in the library and Adam is the only one available to help you.

Adam_F looks up from his work shelving books, "Is there something I can help you with?"

Dranem clears his throat to get the Librarians attention.

Palcadon I would, Mark, but I can't stay to long

Mark_CMG No problem, Palcadon. (smiles)

Dramen "Yes. I'm looking for a book on some regional Lore..."

Mark_CMG (Let's go with that regional part and make the reason so that you can determine the symbols on a map you have found...)

Dramen "Something that happened say, 150 years ago in the mountains to the West of town."

LordVenger *browsing* I am new to this Library and looking on topics of Area Interest

Adam_F We have many books on regional lore, but I have much work to do, unless you are looking to hire a part-time researcher

Mark_CMG (nice way to work in the Economics factor)

Dramen "I could possibly toss in a few gold what some information you know now.. I have no time for long term research assistants."

LordVenger What is the fee for Temple reseach in this area.

Dramen (Playing a Chaotic Good player, just if your wondering.)

Adam_F You can find the regional history books over there, and the books on regional cultures over in those stacks.  If you go digging around in the stacks, try to put things back exactly where you found them.

LordVenger *glance over* Thank you.

Adam_F My expertise can be purchased for 5g per half-day.  I have a book about an event that happened say 150 years ago, in the mountains to the West of town. I have an interesting document, and some knowledge of that time might help me sort it out."

Mark_CMG (adam> 1d6 please, 1-3 means the book you seek isn't in the stacks where it should be)

( Adam_F rolls 1d6 => 2 ) 

Mark_CMG (chuckles)

Adam_F Ahh, I think I know the book you need but it wasn't put back where it should be again. *sighs*

Mark_CMG (And it was a favorite book of yours - sentimental attachment to it)

Dramen <<Thank you oh so generous DM >> (winks)

Adam_F I swear I would quit this job if I hadn't been working here for so long.

Mark_CMG But you remember most of it's contents and might dare to join the party if they will have you)

Dramen "I'm sure that you have proven your worth much here over the years."

Mark_CMG - (winks)

Palcadon I have to be going. For those who don't know... Mark has an awesome site at <http://www.creativemountaingames.com/index.asp.> Just stopped by to say hi. Talk to you soon Mark and all. 

Adam_F I do recall a great deal of that particular volume. Perhaps you would be interested in hiring an expert to join you? At my usual fee of course.

Mark_CMG Thx Palcy adios for now

LordVenger Then you should... Perhaps you would be better suited as a man of the cloth. (grins) Yes. (checks gold) If I have the fee I will pay you. *gives gold to Adam*

Mark_CMG (Let's say that you have it...)

Dramen (Looks over to LordVenger for approval.) "Well the path we follow could prove quite dangerous.. Is a man of your standing prepared to take the challenge?"

Adam_F A vacation would be good, perhaps we can smite some evil and do some good.  And perhaps we will make a tidey profit besides.

LordVenger *looks at Dra smilin* I am ever seeking what is over the next hill

Mark_CMG Okie doke, we're short on time so let's end our interactive portion at that point, but I think you can see how much easier it is to present a particular NPC with simple guidelines as such.

Dramen "Well as it seems, my companion here is in agreeance. I hope you can hold your own, as I don't know if we can protect you..."

Mark_CMG Let's take a few minutes to "post-mortem" that interactive though.

Dramen (grins) "Darn, I was just getting into it as well. (smiles)

LordVenger (listens)

Mark_CMG (to Adam) What parts do you think you might have added a bit to put more of what we all had created into the NPC from the page to the scene, as it were?

Adam_F I think you're asking what did I do differently based on the 3 words and the PROSE scores?

Mark_CMG Sure.

Adam_F Money and self-gain became a higher priority for him, the daring and impotent made him dislike his grunt job and want to do bigger things.

Mark_CMG Yup, very good.

Dramen And have a lack of self-preservation... (winks)

Mark_CMG Can anyone else throw out some suggestions how Adam might have added anything else to bring out those ratings and key words?

Adam_F Sentimental will probably make him miss his dusty tomes after he leaves though. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Obviously, in a quick thing like this, Adam didn't have much time to bring it completely to life, but did a very good job under the circumstances, of course. (smiles)

LordVenger I am late in coming and don't know all the variables...

Adam_F PROSE Politics, Religion, Others, Self, and Economics.. scores of 4/1/2/7/8.. 

Mark_CMG We had the libraian be keen on himself and Economics, but also sentimental, impotent and daring.

Dramen Well, I can tell you one thing... Most 57 year old human Librarians wouldn't be so gung-ho to go adventuring and putting their necks on the line... unless of course they were adventurers in an earlier time.

Mark_CMG OK. Maybe it could have been played up that it was a last grasp at life, perhaps?

Adam_F Or they make decisions without fully considering their consequences IE "Daring" (chuckles)

Mark_CMG Also true...

LordVenger Well being Impotenet he might not be daring at all...

Mark_CMG Ah, but somehow he is both and that's one key to making him a unique NPC.

Adam_F There in lies the conflict. (smiles) He is powerless, but willing to take risks to gain wealth.

Dramen Well, being impotent would probably lower his need of self preservation...

LordVenger Or "Pretend" to take risks...

Mark_CMG He has an internal conflict, in that way, and bringing that conflict into his decision making process makes him an interesting NPC to utilize.

Dramen (nods)

Mark_CMG Well, it looks like we are running out of time for this seminar, but I think we've managed to accomplish a few things.  I hope that everyone has enjoyed it!

Adam_F Thanks, Mark!

LordVenger Well I would be intersted in seeing the entire System. Like I said I missed the beginning, but thanks.

Mark_CMG Let me just close by saying that I have a couple more seminars this weekend, please check the schedule, and I also run a DMing chat every other week which is announced on the EN World site (and I'll also announce it elsewhere.  The next one is on ****)

Adam_F Mark has the system in some of his books I believe?

LordVenger Thank you.

Mark_CMG You'll find the CMG PROSE System briefly explained in each CMG product where it is needed.  Thank you all for coming and participating.

(End of Seminar)


----------



## alsih2o

remember folks, it has been great so far, and it is better when more of us show 


 we have had some great material sof ar, and the format seems to work for everyone. plus, you never know what enworld celebraities might show


----------



## Mark

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *...you never know what enworld celebrities might show  *




True, indeed!  I can't wait to see who shows tomorrow night... 



			
				alsih2o said:
			
		

> *i would also appreciate a session or part of one on "the hook"  *




I think that we can officially make the call and use this for our topic.  I've adjusted the first post in this thread to accomodate a lot of information but I think I will add a section right at the top of it to keep track of the most current topic. 



			
				alsih2o said:
			
		

> *maybe next time you could give us all a little input on npc's? maybe a little help from the your system of determining npc personality and traits? *




Actually, I have just added the transcript from the NPC seminar I ran for Cybercon at the end of October.  I think this will be useful to people and we can explore this topic further down the road.  Perhaps we can do it as a workshop and create a bunch of NPCs?



			
				johnsemlak said:
			
		

> *What's the word on whether Dave Arneson can take part in this chat session? *




I ran into Zeitgeist Dustin at the Mortality Radio show and we discussed the possibility further.  It won't happen tomorrow night but I think we can get some of them to join us at some point in the future.  To be honest, I think for Dave's first interview with his new comapany and efforts, a show like Mortality Radio would serve him better (and I suggested as much) but I did leave the door open to them and they only need to let me know when.  We'll certainly go to school if they have the time to join us but I think a more spcific DMing topic would be a good idea given the limited time frame and format we use.  I'll keep everyone posted as I receive further developments. 



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> *Thanks, I think I'll tattoo it to my forehead so I don't miss it this time. *




We will need a photo of this for our files... 



			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> *Ah, so it's tonight at 7pm Central, eh? That would be:
> 
> 5pm Pacific
> 6pm Mountain
> 7pm Central
> 8pm Eastern
> 1am GMT
> 
> (A public service, not a bump!) *




And an excellent public service it is!   I hope to see you at the chat tomorrrow night.


----------



## Mark

CyberCon Seminar - "When PCs aren't the Center of the Universe"
Saturday Oct 26 2002 10am (central US time)
Mark Clover (Mark_CMG) of Creative Mountain Games - Visit the CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/ 
(CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!)

(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)

Participating:

Adam_F
dhoward
Dargon
DM-with-a-vengence
Dramen
GolgothaGames
KhantheWarlord
LordVenger
Mark_CMG
Tron


Mark_CMG Good morning to everyone and welcome to "When PCs aren't the Center of the Universe"  We'll take a look at how to round out a campaign.  The seminar name is "When PCs aren't the Center of the Universe"  I'll also be having regular chat sessions every other Monday night.  They're announced on EN World and on my message boards at < http://www.creativemountaingames.com >  Shall we dive right in (knowing that anyone still getting coffee can easily catch up when they return)?

KhantheWarlord Sure.

Mark_CMG Some of you know from previous chats a little bit about me, but for those who don't, let me give you some of my background.

GolgothaGames Sure.

Mark_CMG I'm an old wargamer/boardgamer who first got involved with D&D back in 1974 as a player and jumped into DMing soon after that.  Some of the non-gaming experience I have that I think has helped extensively with my gaming includes majoring in Speech and Performing Arts in college, as well as working on stage in Chicago (where I live) as an actor, director and playwright.  As part of this chat we're going to examine how to present a deeper world to your players by developing plots that do not necessarily revolve around the players themselves.

GolgothaGames Very good.

Dramen Now, why would you wanna do that? (smiles)

Mark_CMG (smiles) We'll look at giving NPCs their own stories so that they do not appear to merely being sitting around waiting for PCs to give their sorry lives some meaning. (winks)  It has a number of benefits which include allowing you to layer your games with plots that are not so easily discovered right from the beginning of the session.  This helps to keep the players interested in the game and naturally leads to a lot more fun.

GolgothaGames Cool.

Mark_CMG I like to be very inclusive in these seminars, so if I could ask each of you (and somme of you have done this before, I know) to give me a quick run down on how long you have been gaming.  Let me know about your DMing experience, whether online, tabletop or otherwise.

Adam_F 13-14 years gaming experience, over a decade as a GM.. have played online and tabletop. (smiles)

GolgothaGames 15 or so years tabletop...

KhantheWarlord 17+ years, online and table-top play, primarily DM -- freelance author and editor.

dhoward 12 years (tabletop) then quit for 10 years then 2 years (OpenRPG)

Tron I've been gaming 21 years, wargames, rpg, I've gamed online and face-to-face.

Dramen I've been gaming on and off since High School 15 years ago. I seriously got into gaming about 4 years ago with Shadowrun - both online and table top. This lead to MUSH based Star Wars RPGS, and now I play D&D live with a weekely group based on the Scarred Lands Theme.

Mark_CMG I will warn you that I mainly deal with D&D so my examples will tend to be in that genre but a lot of what we discuss will be easily used in any type of RPG setting.  So we have a very high amount of collective experience in this channel today.  To begin to look at things more closely, let's round table a few examples of the types of plots that each of you have tossed into your games. If you could each throw out one short example please?  Just a basic run down of the main plot from a recent game.

GolgothaGames Evil lord dies and raises back from the dead with legion of whatever to take over the world is one I like to use.

Mark_CMG I'm a big fan of keeping these chats/seminars interactive so if I ask a question, jump right in.

Adam_F The PCs are seeking a cure to a plague spreading through the poorer parts of town. They have to track down 2 possible gangs that sell an illegal narcotic, one of which is lacing the drug with a plague causing agent. The PC' s then have to track back through the gang leader to find the evil druid creating the plague causing agent.

dhoward The (lawful good) party allies itself with a higher level lawful evil party to put down a chaotic evil alliance.

Mark_CMG (to GolgothaGames) Good one. (smiles)

GolgothaGames I have my group as of late rescuing a 4 year old boy that was kidnapped by a dragon that they let through a portal.

Mark_CMG (to Adam_F) Nice detail. (to dhoward) Good twist in that one.

Dramen In our current campaign, laying siege to a temple we've had at least 4 'off side quests' from people we've encountered en route asking our party for a 'favor.'

KhantheWarlord Unique and powerful NPCs and PCs from all over the multiverse get pulled into a great, near-apocolyptic realm as the unwilling pawn of a grand gladiatorial deathmatch to sate the desires of a bored deity of uncalcuable proportions. Kinda high level. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Dramen) That's good layering. (to KhantheWarlord) Got the Epic thing going there, eh?

KhantheWarlord Yeppers... they wanted their old Main Guns brought out of retirement (smiles) and I couldn't let them be center-stage.

Mark_CMG OK.  Can each of you also tell me if you have a current sub-plot riding along with the main one?

Tron Mine's basically a "treasure hunt" PCs find a map and follow it to an "abandoned tower"...however the master necromancer's assistant still resides there (lots of undead fun.)

Mark_CMG Something possibly ongoing that deals with one particular character, perhaps?

Dramen It's probably extended our campaign by about 4 months, but the group seems to have fun with the side ventures... the problem now, after all the side treks, is getting focused back on our primary goal. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Tron) That works well.

Adam_F In the plague plot, there's some subplots revolving around saving some of the plague victims and some sub quests involving plague victim's families.

Mark_CMG (to Dramen) It's good to be busy. (to Adam_f) I see...

dhoward The leader of the higher level lawful evil party strives to raise his social status.

KhantheWarlord Yes... the party is continuing their efforts into convincing one of the members that they are still alive and not an undead being that was brought back from death due to an irresponsible party member (illusions, glamors, mind warping all being used.)

GolgothaGames Little do the adventurers know but they have let hundreds of draconic princes loose and they are about to figure that out when they rescue the boy.  It is actually the main plot but they have no clue right now.

KhantheWarlord He keeps getting subtle hints with every passing game.

Mark_CMG These are just the sort of thing we'll be discussing further.

Tron My original PCs first adventure, was again an anti-undead mini-scenario in a tomb...however there just happened to be an altar to his god there as well...he will undoubtedly think there is some type of underlying theme to the whole thing.

Mark_CMG Let me also ask how many of you have a further situation that is ongoing dealing with either one of the PC's families or perhaps a old friend from the PC's background?

Tron Not in mine. (Not yet, anyway.)

KhantheWarlord Due to their enhanced life span, all of their families and old friends are no more.

Mark_CMG OK. And what level is the campaign, Tron?

DM-with-a-vengence My PCs don't have background...

KhantheWarlord But I used to incorporate them when they were still living. (winks)

Mark_CMG (to KhantheWarlord) (chuckles)

DM-with-a-vengence Maybe next week...

Tron Actually a fuzion campaign...but roughly 2nd or 3rd level in D&D terms.

dhoward I do.  One PC struggles with an angry family who feels rejected by his leaving to become an adventurer.

GolgothaGames I love to develop families and friends for the PCs and I usually take one character and focus on him/her. Right now I am going to start focusing on the oriental charatcer in the group and introduce his rival brother, or not. But something like that!

Mark_CMG (to dhoward) That's a strong sub-plot.  There's a danger that when you introduce a sub-plot (or moreso the main plot) that revolves around one particular PC the game can feel one-sided to the rest of the players.  But a way I have found to avoid that is to actually have the plot just revolve around someone who that one particular PC knows.  Keep the focus on the NPC, rather than the PC, and it can feel more as if the whole party is as involved as that single PC.

GolgothaGames When I have done this I usually take a few sessions to focus on one then move to another PC and they all get a balance diet of attention and there characters are developed with directness.

KhantheWarlord (to GolgothaGames) But then the adventure seems fixed.

Mark_CMG (to GolgothaGames) That's a good plan.  (then to KhantheWarlord) There is that danger.

KhantheWarlord "It's my scheduled turn to have special attention."

GolgothaGames Oh.  I see where you are going, bravo!

Mark_CMG It really comes down to how seamlessly you can introduce plot points.

GolgothaGames If you have the right group then it works great.

Mark_CMG And even better if you can have one plot blend into the next or have them overlap.  But more importantly for the purposes of this chat/seminar is how to introduce plots that do not focus on the PCs or even what they might do to interact with the plot and, to introduce enough potential plots that the PCs have a wide choice of directions in which to go.

Dramen My DM tends to make a generalist plot, and maybe involve a different player in particular from one session to the next to allow us to build some depth to each member of the party.

GolgothaGames (to Mark_CMG) Very good, tell me more!

Mark_CMG Say, for instance, that you have the PCs begin in some sort of urban environment.  It is always a good idea to give the PCs some idea of what is happening in the world around them.  Within the urban center, nearby that urban center and further afield (perhaps in the next town but also in the next kingdom.)  I use an old comedy rule to help me set things up called "the rule of three."  Have you ever noticed how a lot of jokes are built using the number three?  "Three guys walk into a...(etc.)" (smiles)

KhantheWarlord Yep, and whole campaign settings. (Planescape)

GolgothaGames OK.

Mark_CMG Or noticed how a lot of jokes have three parts?  Such that "a guy does this, he does that, then he does the last thing (that leads to the punchline)"?  There is a reason for this, and that is that the human mind seems to be able to juggle three concepts quite easily.  Also, with only two, the mind has a tendancy to simply compare and contrast the two concepts directly against one another (placing a definite importance on one over another.)  But with three, it spins all of them into a potentially equal balance, and makes it more difficult to easily prioritize without close examination.  It is that closer examination that you want to promote as the DM because, quite frankly, you do not care where the PCs go, only that they go "somewhere"  I take this to a higher level in my own games.

GolgothaGames Very good!

Mark_CMG I try to use that number three in an exponential or more complex way.  So, for instance, when I mentioned that there were things to do in the town, I mention three, but I also mention three things just outside of town and three ever further from town (next town or kingdom.)  Now, none of these things needs to have anything to do directly with the PCs.  In fact, it is much more compelling to the PCs if they are not directly involved from the start.

GolgothaGames Example?

Mark_CMG It's like at a crime scene, if you ask someone what happened, they will tell you little, but if you tell someone what you saw, they will correct you with details they might not have had at the first.  It's human nature to want to be involved at your own behest, but to resist doing something prompted by another.  It is more satisfying to follow through on one of your own ideas than to do a task suggested by someone else.  This is why, although a lot of plots revolve around being hired by someone, they tend to get a bad rap as being cliche.  Laying out the multiple potential plots, and letting the players decide what they want to do is ultimately a bigger juicier carrot to dangle in front of them.  It is, in fact, a whole bunch of carrots. (smiles) The next step to layering this, and that also helps to present an ongoing campaign, is to tie a number of the plots together.  So let us say that we have three plot hooks in town (A,B, and C), three just outside (D, E,and F) and three further away (G, H, and I).  Tying A to I, B to D and E & F to H helps you to drop clues to deepen the knowledge of the world around the PCs while they are exploring their own individual interests.  I hasten to add that it is important to present some conclusions to the individual plots as they are unraveled or culminated..

Dramen Introducing a Deck of Fate will do that for you. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Without tiering, it can be very frustrating and you want the plots to have conclusions so there is a sense of accomplishment. (to Dranem) Expound a bit on that idea, though I have some thoughts also on that.

dhoward How do you minimize the amount of work? How do you avoid putting effort into unexplored plots?

Dramen Deck of Fate, or Deck of Many Things...

GolgothaGames what is a Deck of Fate?

Adam_F (to dhoward) Good question.

Mark_CMG (to dhoward) There is a trick I use, and I will get back to that in just a few moments. (smiles)

Dramen The box compels the characters to choose a number of cards, each character is doing so on his own, but the over all affects the party.

Adam_F (Deck of Fate or Deck of Many Things is a collection of random 'events' that can occur to a PC, usually when drawing a card from a tarot-like deck)

Mark_CMG Let me go on a bit here because I am afraid that I disagree with the idea of a Deck of Fate (if not used only in unique situations.)  I've always felt that when you "quest" PCs or put them in situations where they are compelled by outside forces to react, rather then to simply act on their own, they have less control and thus less fun.  Granted, doing that occasionally is one thing, and can be fun provided they have chosen to draw the cards, but I caution people to avoid this for the most part.

Adam_F I agree. Deck of Fate is fun once, but gets old quickly and can be frustrating if a lot of bad rolls are made.

Mark_CMG To explore the work load factor that dhoward brought up...  This might be hard to explain without mentioning a particular system, but let me try.   All games are really a series of challenges.  Even in a game that does not focus on character levels, there are levels of play (levels of experience, at least for the players themselves if not the characters.)  It's always a good idea to look over as many of the options you have at the level of the players, even if you are not going to develop them specifically for a game session.  Many game system books include some sort of break down of the types of challenges that are good for beginning players, intermediate players and experienced players.  Most break them down even further.  Taking the time to at least glance over as many options as you can will make it much easier to throw something together on the fly if necessary but...

Dramen OK.  I get it.  Like a long term campaign where the monsters/side adventures get harder as the characters progress ...

Mark_CMG (to Dramen) Yup. (and continuing) A very good way to do things is to make sure you add some sort of qualifying statement in with the plots that you present.  Be sure to take those nine ideas presented above (the three, three, and three) and qualify their difficulty so that you are somewhat guiding the Players to make the sensible choice, from what will still be a handful of choices.  PCs never make their decisions in a vacumn.  They do plan things.

Dramen Or at least we think we're planing. 

Mark_CMG While they may sometmies do this in secret, they often ask around for advice from NPCs or simply make their plans in ear shot of NPCs.

GolgothaGames (laughs)

Mark_CMG (chuckles) Be sure to have most (not all) NPCs give fair advice.  And even if you have an NPC give bad advice, be sure that there is the possibility of that NPC being shown as the bad advice giver that they are. (smiles) Having a couple of NPCs together while adviece is being given allows you to have the NPCs make comparisons and debate their own advice, giving the PCs a better grasp of the dpeth of a situation.  And, also important, is to have the NPCs speak from their own experience, rarely as an "If I were you..." type of conversation.  This accomplishes two things.  It resists the notion that you are telling the players what they should be doing and it also shows that there is more to the world than just what the PCs will or will not do.  An NPC may not even care whether the PCs get involved, but he sure will have an opinion of his own involvement, or need to avoid such involvement.  NPCs, just like everyone you know, have opinions on almost everything.  And given that there are a lot less ways for them as beings to express themselves beyond their usual circle of peers, they can tend to be vocal when someone new to them (like a PC) is taking an interest in their opinion.  Well, I prefer a little more interaction in these seminars and it seems I've been going on for quite a while here. Are there some questions about things so far?

dhoward How do you strike a balance between the PCs being the center of attention and the PCs feeling insignificant?

Mark_CMG The main way to keep them from feeling insignificant is to make sure their actual accomplishments are highlighted.

Dramen By making the PCs work for their reputation?

Mark_CMG Just like in real life, if I start a new job.  I go in with no one knowing me, for the most part, and having done nothing.  But...

Adam_F I think the rule of 3's helps a lot with that, gives the PCs a sense of significance in that they decided on what they're doing.  I've definately played games where I felt I was caught up in the DM's plot and had little choice of what to do.

Mark_CMG ...as soon as someone begins to interact with the environment, they affect it in some way, whether through success or failure.  (to Adam_F) Also true (about their choosing.)  They will get twice the satisfaction from something they have chosen as something they are relegated to do.  It's important to highlight their involvement, and it can be as simple as someone saying "I'm so glad you showed up here!"

GolgothaGames ...and you have two other optional plots for later...

Mark_CMG Has anyone taken a new job only to have a co-worker say "It's good they hired someone, I was doing two jobs up til now"  It goes a long way to making you feel like you are doing something worthwhile.  And, yes, Dranem, it is a good thing to have the PCs work for their reputation.  Sometimes having to overcome a failure or overcome a bad reputation is good also.  More questions?  (Provided that helps answer what you asked, dhoward?)

dhoward Anything more that a GM can do? 

Mark_CMG Perhaps you can ask more specifically?

dhoward Some people may not want to hang around, building a rep.

Mark_CMG Is there a potential stumbling block that you are foreseeing?  Meaning that there are some players who really do need to be given a single clear path of they won't make a move on their own?

dhoward I don't know. It just sounds like having a rep is the fun part. Building a rep is just waiting until that time. (Or so some players may think.)

Mark_CMG In cases such as that I have been known to have a family member kidnapped, or some such plot that directly involves the PCs, but over the course of that first adventure, I make sure to do the same presentation of options so that they can begin to see how much there is to potentially do, and get them started on being self-motivators.

dhoward Seems reasonable.  I'm satisfied. No more questions for me.

Mark_CMG Nothing wrong with starting off with something of a rep, maybe as your hometown bully, or hero, but giving too much away in the beginning leaves you no real place to go and is ultimately unsatisfying as a game.  There needs to be some building, or being on top means nothing but I understand the dilema.  How about some other questions?

KhantheWarlord What of how to handle the players that get innately jealous of another character's rep?

Dramen Or as the town's most wanted thief...

Mark_CMG (winks)

Mark_CMG (to Khanthe Warlord) Good question but it is important to keep a deliniation between player's problems and character problems.

Dramen Well, if players have that weak of an ego that they find they need to one up their fellows, then that makes an interesting bit of conflict that could work in the party's favour if tended properly.

Mark_CMG Best to deal with player problems away from the table.  OK.  Let me go through these questions as asked before e have any more. (smiles)

KhantheWarlord No, I'm meaning how to handle the situation in-game, without bringing attention to the player or taking them in private.

Mark_CMG (to KhantheWarlord)  Sorry, but if it is a player problem, I think that handling it in-game is not the way to go.  It creates additional problems rather than solving the one you have at the start. It need not be brought up that session, but can be brought up in-between and privately.

Dramen If there's personal conflicts those need to be addressed.  The goal is for everyone to have fun.  If your players are that attached to their characters, then perhaps you need to give them something else to focus on, like keeping their character alive.

Mark_CMG It's very important to separate the type of problems and only have in-game problems handled in-game.

Dargon Rivalries between characters can be fun, if the players are getting along and just having fun with the 'jealousy.'

Mark_CMG (to Dargon) True but only if it is truly between the characters and not the actual players.

Dargon (nods) Exactly.

Mark_CMG Let me backtrack.  Dranem mentioned the "most wanted thief".  Was that a question or a comment on the whole reputation thing?  (to Adam_F) How the plots relate to one another?  Question or comment?

Dramen That was a comment... in our campaign, I was a wanted theif, finding the adventuring group and getting out of town allowed my character to grow from a 'thug' mentality and develop himself... maybe prove that he's more.

Mark_CMG (to Dramen) I see.  That's a good way to use that motivation. (smiles)

Adam_F I was just wondering if you had any tips on avoiding player confusion when you have 9 ongoing plots that inter-relate and have NPCs in common, etc.

Mark_CMG OK.  I am not seeing other questions. Khan, do you want to take another stab at what we were discussing to try and help me understand the question better?  (to Adam_F) OK.  I see.  The way to keep them separated is to emphasize that a plot is not really ongoing until the players choose to become involved.  It isn't really all that different from giving background info, so to speak.  Say, for instance, that you have a lush campaign setting.  You could give years and years of info, but it's the ones that the players ask more about that should be detailed.  Try to keep the plot hooks simple.  One sentence or maybe just one name involved (one NPC). One place for each hook until they move in that direction.  Then reveal as much as you like or is warranted by their exploration.  I do feel it is important to have at least a full paragraph for yourself on each hook, but sum it up in one sentance for the players and use adjectives to define the nouns in each hook.  Make it short but rich.

Adam_F I'm just thinking with the plots relating to each other, like in your example A and I are linked, etc. it could get confusing unless you hand out plothook notecards. (chuckles)

Mark_CMG (chuckles) I see.  I try to build in some sort of mnemonic device.  Some way of connecting them with a imagined visual cue, perhaps, like having the one series of interated plots have some reference to colors, while another might be related with a phonetic sound.  (too Adam_F) Does that make sense?

Adam_F That's a good tip, Mark.  Thanks.

Mark_CMG To use a example, say that the first hook in town has to do somehow with recovering a flag.

Tron I have a similiar question...

Mark_CMG Then perhaps the hook in the next kingdom has to do with heraldry in some way.  So you tie it together with symbols.  Then maybe another of the town hooks is about Darden the Blacksmith.  And the hook from nearby town has to do with a mine.  So metal is a through line.  And find a way to metion that cleverly.  It'll be picked up sub-consciously, or if not, make the relationship stronger.  (to Tron) Question?

Tron Have you run into a situation with 9 potential plot lines in whcih the players become indecisive?

Mark_CMG We'll make this the last one since we are running short on time.

Tron Just touching on the plots lines and jumping between them without real direcction?

Mark_CMG Well, it really comes down to what clues you plant along the way to unobtrusively steer them in a logical direction.  Once they have chosen a particular one, others should just make sense to follow.  If I deal with the blacksmith, and part of the finale is that he can no longer get a certain type of metal, seeking the recently infested mine seems like a natural.  Make sure to reinforce interest in a particular plot if you have developed it more fully.  If they wish to go in another direction...well, you should come to the chat tomorrow to discuss "Operation Left Turn: Plot Twists on the Fly"  How's that for a closing statement?  (winks)

Tron ...cliffhanger... (smiles)

Mark_CMG As to being indecisive, like I mentioned above, hand-feed them if you must but be sure to plant the seeds of decision-making along the way so that they can begin to move on their own when they are ready.  I'd like to thank everyone for participating today.

Tron ...but i think what you are saying is, even in an open-ended format the gm must do some leading.

Adam_F Thanks again for the chat Mark!

Tron Thanks.

Mark_CMG (to Tron) That depends on the players, ultimately, but sometimes you do have to lead them.  (Closing) I hope you've enjoyed our chat and be sure to look for the transcript here later.  Also, please do visit my own site at <http://www.creativemountaingames.com>

(End of Seminar)


----------



## Mark

CyberCon Seminar - "Operation Left Turn: Plot Twists on the Fly"
Saturday Oct 27 2002 2pm (central US time)
Mark Clover (Mark_CMG) of Creative Mountain Games - Visit the CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/ 
(CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!)

(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)

Participating:

Enrious
Mark_CMG
Ostler
salustra
Tron
TRS_Veander


Mark_CMG Welcome to "Operation Left Turn: Plot Twists on the Fly."  This is a seminar dealing with a subject even veteran DMs find some difficulty handling.  I'm familiar with each of you, somewhat, but just for the transcript can I ask each of you to give some idea of your experience gaming? How long have you been playing? DMing? What mediums (i.e. tabletop, message board, chatrooms, etc)? (I'll do the same.)  My own experince starts back in the early/mid 70's as a player and a DM soon after that.  Mostly tabletop, but I've run some long-time message board games and many IRC games, as well.

Tron I've been playing (PC & GM) 21 years, wargaming & all types of RPG, tabletop, chat, and message boards

Enrious I've been playing wargames since the early 80's, role-playing games since 87 or so and moved on through a variety of systems as player and GM. All had been tabletop, although I am starting an IRC campaign in 2 weeks

Mark_CMG Being from Chicago, it's not as tough to find groups to play (both one shots at clubs, and home games) but I've managed to run a lot of games at conventions as small as a dozen tables, and as large as GenCon)

Ostler Anyway player/dm ever since DnD 3E came out..Played lots of RPG games on computer before that...  My wife got me started on DnD. (smiles)

Mark_CMG How many here have had the experience of preparing a great deal of material for a session only to have the group decide to gio in a direction that made all of that work unusable for that night?

Ostler I've been on both side of that. Had a DM make everybody mad because of how he handled a situation like that.

Enrious I've had that happen enough that I tend to avoid overplanning

Mark_CMG (to Ostler) Tell us a bit of how that made the group mad, so we can examine better ways of handling things, please

Ostler He had planned on a bad guy running upstairs leading the party into an ambush...  The bad guy got killed before he could run up the stairs...  So he had the fighter's sword break, and ended the session.

Mark_CMG That sounds a little final. (winks)

Ostler That was one of the times...

Mark_CMG Argh, so this is something that particular DM has mishabdled a couple of times, eh?

Ostler He no longer runs a game.  Nobody wanted to play anymore.

Mark_CMG Does he still play at other people's tables?

Ostler Yes, he still plays.

Mark_CMG Well, I think we can all agree that not only is "players taking left turns" a difficult situation, but also that we want to handle it in a way that still allows everyone to have fun (or we likely wouldn't be here.)  There are any number of ways, but the most importnat thing is to make sure it is still fun for the group, specifically, you can try to cobble together a "bridge" to bring them back to the main (planned) encounters.  You can create "road blocks" for them in an effort to sterr them back toward the planned encounters.  Or you can go with them and try to work on the fly to present something just as interesting as what was originally planned.  Before we get to working on the fly, let's discuss the other options for a short bit.  The "bridge" is really an abbreviated form of "working on the fly"  It requires some ingenuity, but no where near as completely improving the remainder of the session (improvising, that is.)  It is a very good idea to provide some form of back up plan that allows for an easy "bridge" since this is probably the most preferred soluation.  When prepping your series of encounters for a given sessions, it is always a good idea to create a couple of side encounters that include clues that will bring people back to the main session encounters.  It only takes a few moments of prep and will rarely seem as disruptive as completely improvising.  A simpler solution is to flag a few monsters in your books that are on par with the level of play of the group.  When doing this, make a few notes of why those encounters might happen and how they would help to lead back to the primary goals.  In this way you only have to jot down a few sentences, but still will have easy access to a useful "bridge."  Alternately...  Having a stockpile of NPCs to nudge the group back to their mission is also useful.  These NPCs can be ones with which the group is familiar, or completely cursory to the plot.  They have to be used situationally, but at least you will have a tool to utilize.  To take a quick look at the "road block"...  I really don't advise this, but there are times where nothing else will work.

Enrious I have a quick question about one of your points.  When you're talking about having "alternate" encounters, you mean role-playing as well as combat, right?  For example creating a few npc encounters that would lead the story back on track?

Mark_CMG If you absolutely feel that the payoff of getting the group back to the planned encounters is big enough to justify it, and cannot figure out any way to steer them gently back to those encounters with a "bridge", then by all means do not completely rule out using a "road block."

Enrious And a followup question...

Mark_CMG Actually, it doesn't matter whether it is a role-playing encounter, a combat encounter, or something in between.  Whatever works best with your group is what to use.

Enrious In your experience, have you encountered more plot twists as a result of a combat situation or role-playing situation?

Mark_CMG An important part of it is to use what the group feels most comfortable.  I've seen plenty of both and try to roll with how the group is going.  I'm a big fan of going off the written page and have no problem with it.  I only steer a group back to planned encounters if they are foundering with their own plans.  But to speak just a bit more about "road blocks."  It is usually best to throw these in in such a way as to suggest that they are also planned.  Dead end hallways or alleys with nothing to show for any searches are useful and do not give the impression that you are simply railroading.  And, at the least, they send a strong signal that the players have gone off course.  For the most part groups are looking to follow through on their goals and if they have gone off course inadvertantly, then I do suggest tryi9ng to use a "bridge" or a "road block" to get them back to the planned encounters.  It isn't railroading in these cases, just giving extra clues or info to help the to achieve their goals.  But sometimes the group has figured out (more or less) that the original mission is no longer a good idea for them, or doesn't hold interest to them any longer.  In this case, working on the fly is almost the only way to go and still keep the game fun for them.  Before we move on to that aspect, does anyone else have any questions about using a "bridge" or a "road block"?

Ostler How do you feel about using a "mole"?

Mark_CMG Ah, good question.  I have used them but only very very rarely.

Enrious How do you help prevent your bridge from becoming a railroad?

Mark_CMG You can really strain the trust of a group if you use a mole.  Moles can have the effect of making the group distrust all NPCs.

TRS_Veander Yes, that was what I was going to say, Mark.

Mark_CMG To use one, you really need to lay the groundwork of having plenty of NPCs.

TRS_Veander Or mistrusting you in general.

Ostler What if your "mole" is a PC that is the party leader?

Mark_CMG ...and it can even be good to have a Mole kill off another NPC so that you have a situation where they are defending one that they like, while chasing the one that they don't.

Ostler Or if the group knows that person is there to help keep things on track?

Mark_CMG It reinforces the idea that not all NPCs are bad news.  PCs are not Moles.  They either have their own agenda separate from the group, or work with the group, but they should never be working for the DM.  If they choose to work for a group of NPCs, then they are still making their own choice, but I highly recommend avoiding any situation where the DM is dictating the motivations of any PC.  And I also do not recommend having a long-term NPC that is always guiding the group.  NPCs in small doses (giving guidance) is not a problem but if a group needs so much guidance that they need a regular NPC around, then I think you need to just give them more information so they can make decisions on their own.  Or, at the least, have many more than just one NPC giving the guidance.  Teach the group to fish, so to speak.  (to Enrious) Regarding preventing the bridge from becoming a railroad...  It's only railroading if you are pushing the group in a direction that they do not wish to go.  A bridge is actually sterring them to their goal when they wish to go in that direction. If it needs to be used to often, then it is likely you need to give more information so they can stay on target on their own.  Most of the time, this is the case, (that using too many bridges is an indication that you aren't being forthcoming enough with info so that they PCs can act on their own and stay on target).

TRS_Veander (raises hand) I have a question. (whenever appropriate)

Mark_CMG It happens more often when a DM has a new group and isn't quite in tune with what prompts them, what piques their interest, or when the DM hasn't yet figured out just how subtle he can be and get away with it. (smiles) (to Veander) Question?  (to Enrious) Make sense? Or is there more?

TRS_Veander Well, I just wanted to ask about the pushing a group where they don't want to go.  I find I use that a lot.  Now I don't do it uncomfortably, but I do it to really add a bit of realism.  To what degree do you mean?

Mark_CMG (to Ostler) Does that answer your question, also?

Enrious Mark that answered it and clarified the difference. 

Mark_CMG The trick is to present choices, rather than leave only a single option.

Ostler Yep.

TRS_Veander Oh, OK.  Sure.

Mark_CMG There is always more than one way to achieve a goal, and presenting them with choices really only needs to be done when they cannot see a solution on their own.  If the group is stuck, try to give them more than one option so they do not feel they are being puished in a single direction.

TRS_Veander Ok, I was thinking you meant in general.  I understand, thanks.

Mark_CMG Ultimately, most groups (and most of the time) the group wants to see what you have prepared.

Enrious ...but ideally those options will eventually lead to the same point?

Mark_CMG (to Enrious) Absolutely, unless the group knows where that leads and have actually chosen not to go to that goal.  In this case, it may be that the DM has misread the group and prepared something that is no longer useful, then it is time to "work on the fly."

Enrious ...because if you lead the paths where they don't want to go, it's railroading?

Mark_CMG So, let's hear a few examples of times that each of you, as a DM, has had to "work on the fly", please? (then to Enrious) Yup.

salustra I have had to work on the fly when the party chose to follow an obscure tavern rumor rather than the two or three adventure paths I had set up.

Mark_CMG (to Salustra) Yup.  (chuckles)  There is a danger in throwing out too many rumors, eh? (smiles)

Ostler My player were trying to get an NPC hostage back from the group that kidnapped him.  I expected them to meet with the kidnappers at the time and place set by the kidnappers.  Instead they scried the kidnappers and attacked them at their home base.  So I had to come up with a building, people, etc.

Enrious Running a game of Twilight 2000, the party (NATO) is supposed to be scouting for an enemy force and report back without getting into a fight.  They get into a fight and are captured (when this encounter was just supposed to be informational to advance the plot.)

salustra Yes...though it led eventually to a really interesting adventure.

Mark_CMG So, important point here is to not give any information that you as a DM are not ready to follow up.  (then to Ostler) Another not so unusual situation, when the group develops a plan that you yourself did not perceive.  So point number two, let's say, is to have a number of "components" available to handle odd situations (we'll get back to that.)  (to Enrious) (chuckles) The party getting in over their head is also something that can happen very often.  Let's call point numner three "prepping with the PCs' level in mind, regardless of encounter level."

Enrious Especially in some game systems where that can happen before you or they realize it. 

Mark_CMG (to Enrious) (laughs) Very true. (to Veander) Any examples to add? (continuing) Let's look at the first point more closely then.  Be ready to follow up on any info you give as a DM.  It takes very little time to set up false rumors, but what if the group follows them up?  My own solution is to take it in a direction that allows it to be explored but still brings the group back to the "real" rumors.  In all of what we discuss, the most important thing to keep in mind is that even when you come to a resolution of something that is fruitless, it still must have some resolution to be satisfying.

TRS_Veander Well, in my opinion (and that of the group members I have had) is that sometimes things just HAPPEN to you.  Reality bites when it comes to scenarios.  So while I don't like pushing people to DO things, I like pushing scenarios on them.

Mark_CMG It's like the difference between reading a novel, a short story, or simply telling a anecdote.  (to Veander) Throwing them into situations is fine, provided there are ways to get to some sort of resolution.

TRS_Veander Like "Ok, the captain is telling you to get off his ship NOW! You are surrounded by men."  This would be predicated by the PCs making either bad or wrong decisions.  But I find people enjoy that type of railraoding.

Mark_CMG Bad things may happen, but the player need to always know they have choices.

salustra In my case it happened to me because I like there to be a background reality that happens whether or not the players are involved.  They just took an interest in something I didn't expect them to.

TRS_Veander I guess I have been blessed with groups full of guys that never need my prodding for their own ideas.  They have too many and often don't agree.

Mark_CMG And in your example, they have the choice to leave the ship, or to fight, or perhaps to try and continue to negotiate.

TRS_Veander Right, I agree that railroading THEIR decisions is wrong, but I just don't know how I would do that really. 

Mark_CMG (to salustra) That can be tricky, but you have to take a moment in those situations to try and mentally identify what it is the players are looking to accomplish.  Sometimes, with a handy NPC, you can simply ask the PCs what it is they are trying to do.

TRS_Veander Right, yeah, keeping the big picture in mind. 

Mark_CMG Another way to handle it is to simply tell the players to take a moment and discuss their plans, this can give you the chance to brainstorm some ways of making those plans into a plot.

Enrious Are you a fan of trying to take some sort of inventory of what kind of gamer the players are?

TRS_Veander One of the most enjoyable experiences as a DM in the past 2 years is presenting moral dilemmas to a group. Wow, it's so interesting to see people actually role-play without knowing they are.

Mark_CMG I'm a big fan of keeping the books open and absently flipping pages most of the time.  It makes sure that the group isn't aware of when you are grabbing something new or when you are just double checking a rule.  And I do not mean with your head down while ignoring the group.  I mean as you continue to run the game.  It's important to also make sure that the players are discussing things among themselves as much as interacting with you as the DM.  (to Enrious) If that works for the group, or helps you to prepare for games, yes.  But for the most part I think every player has varying degrees of what some people call "player types."  I do not think that there are full-blown munchkins or straight up role-players, just degrees of each in all gamers.  (to Veander) That's a fun situation and well worth exploring. Can you tell us more about that "moral dilemma?"  (continuing) ...and to not lose any time while Veander is typing, I'll also be getting ready to move on and talk about preplanned generic components that can be trotted out in other situations to "fill gaps."  Ostler mentioned having to come up with a building and bad guys on the fly.  This is something that can be easily done, on the fly, if you just want to draw a simple square building and divide up the indside into a few rooms, then populate it with a handful of warriors at a given level.  But this goes a much longer way with players if you have something prepared in advance, even if it something that isn't specifically prepared but requires some simple adjustments.  Especially true in 3E because it takes very little to mix it up a bit.  Just having a few different level NPCs, with some variety of skills and feats, can make a random encounter (or one that stems from a left turn) into a memorable and intersting challenge.  Important point - Be prepared to use varying tactics in combat and different approaches in interaction, so that it never becomes a matter of just rolling the dice often enough to get to the conclusion.

TRS_Veander Moral situation was this: PCs were to take out an Evil Cult Temple.  Did so but while they did they found a book with the names of all the people in the nearby town who were part of it (but not currently there).  Got back to town, regarded as heroes, of course.  The town was a frontier town very dedicated to Pelor and highly offended and disgusted by this Cult.  The head priest takes the list and while the characters are thinking all is well at the tavern that night, he is having officers of the town militia get all the woman, men, and children.  Next morning the cultists are brought to the center of town and executed.  Even the kids and woman.  The PCs did not know this, but the Cult HAD fully corrupted these people.  So the PCs all split up in opinion as to what to do about this.

Mark_CMG I can't stress enough how important it is for a DM to understand how combat wotrks, and to be very familiar with all of the skills, feats and spells.  These are even more important for NPCs than they are for PCs.  (to Veander) Let's look at your situation more closely and let's round table it.  Everyone feel free to chime in with constructive comments on Veander's example.

Enrious I would have tried to have some way of the PC's getting some inclination that night or early morning that this was going on.  It would make the dilemma more important I think and more urgent.

salustra Yes...if they had to decide whether or not to do anything about it.

Enrious Also serves as a timing issue...just when they thought hey could relax...

TRS_Veander I honestly think that would have ruined their fun in the situation.  I predicated group unity and discussion.

Mark_CMG So, in essense, Veander put the PC at odds with one another rather than in a position to do something about the situation prior to it happening

TRS_Veander ...though not everyone agreed of course.

Enrious I think it's also a case where the DM had to make a situation based on his read of his players.

Mark_CMG They had to determine what sort of *reaction*, rather than what *action* to take in this situation.

TRS_Veander They weren't meant to stop it.

Mark_CMG I understand.  But...

TRS_Veander And they did get clues at night.  They ignored them because "Dude let's get some chics now that we are heroes"

Mark_CMG It should be noted that when a DM sets up a group to have to react, instead of act, the DM is limiting the options of the group.  Not necessarily a bad thing, but one that should probably only be done by a DM who is fairly familiar with his/her group.

TRS_Veander Under presure a group finds itself I find. 

Enrious (to Veander)  Then it kinda falls in to my player's problem of missing clues and doing (or not doing) something and having to live with the results of that.

Mark_CMG That can be true, but always remember that the opposite is also possible.  Don't just assume that there is only the possibility that the group will come together, it can also drive them apart.  Be prepared for either reaction.

TRS_Veander I just let it happen as it was prepared, and I had no clue what they would do.

Mark_CMG Can you tell us how this group *did* in fact react, please?

TRS_Veander They didn't stop it but they did go to the next town, spoke with the Pelor higher-up and got the frontier town in some trouble.  Well, you initially had the look of "Oh jeez" and then the paladin only stood at the head of the executions and asked.  No demanded it be stopped.  The other characters were very much selfish and did nothing until the Paladin was being harrassed by city folk.

Mark_CMG (chuckles) Bringing it to the light of day, eh? (continuing) OK.  Well, we are running down on time and there is one last area I would like to address, so are there any other comments before moving on?

Enrious None here.

TRS_Veander Go ahead.

Mark_CMG OK.  I'd like to share something that I learned in some early acting/improv classes that has actually crossed over and served me well as a DM.  It's basically three guidelines that help you in any situation whetehr working on the fly or adjusting to a group that is approaching something that you have prepared but in an unexpected way.  The first is "Never say 'No'" (don't jump all over this because I will elaborate.) (smiles)  The second is to not "lay on" anything.  Dealing with the first...  While there are times when the PCs will attempt to try things they are not capable of doing, it is important to make the distinction between the fact that they aren't capable and what they are trying isn't simply being disallowed.  Qualify your stopping something from happening with some reasoning that doesn't leave the players feeling you simply aren't allowing something or simply aren't prepared for them to try it.  Allow them to try things and fail rather than simply saying "no" and be sure to point out how difficult it is or what it is that they are lacking.  Make sure that it is their character that has reasoned it out and figured what it is that they will need before accomplishing a difficult task.  To address the second point, a "lay on" in improv is when one person dictates or limits another persons options.  For example, if I am on stage with someone and I turn to them and say "It's a real shame you lost your legs", it can be a bit limiting to the scene. (smiles) The same holds true for the game.  While it can be fun to challenge a group, make sure not to do it in such a way as to seem that you are not leaving them any options (and we've discussed this above quite a bit already.)  The last point that I am going to make is an old saying in improv, and it is also true for the game...  "Let's go somewhere, anywhere, together"  Be prepared to allow the game to flow and be ready to go with it when need be.  Keep an open mind and know that anything you have prepared in advance can always be used at some other time.  Enjoy where the players are going and use it as a chance to explore different facets of the game.  Are there any last questions?  (And let me take a second to say thank you to everyone who is here today.  I've enjoyed the interaction and I hope that everyone has had a good time.)

Enrious I have as well, thanks for the tips.

Mark_CMG Thanks for joining us. Enrious.  Any other questions from anyone?

Ostler Shameless plug: Download Locus - Jalston it's great. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Thanks, Ostler.  (smiles) Everyone feel free to visit my site for some free downloads (including the Locus - Jalston) at <http://www.creativemountaingames.com>

Enrious Aren't you doing more DMing seminars?

Ostler Just trying to help. (winks)

salustra Great seminar...I really enjoyed it!

Mark_CMG I'll be doing my regualr DMing chat sessions which will be announced on EN World.  They take place every other Monday evening at 7pm central with the next one on *****.  Thanks again and good gaming!


(End of Seminar)


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## Buddha the DM

Hey Mark, thanks for collecting all the chat information in the first post of this thread!


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## alsih2o

just a little over 8 hours away, and this will be the first dm chat mark has hosted where the boards were up the day of the chat, so i expect a good crowd


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## Buddha the DM

I'm expecting a crowd as well.


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## Mark

Very good crowd last night and much more of a round table than usual.  I hardly had to chime in except to keep things on topic a couple of times.  Excellent input and the transcript, which I will add to this thread soon, should be quite an interesting read for everyone.  Thanks to all how participated.


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## Mark

Mon Nov 18 21:56:14 2002
Topic is "Plot Hooks: Approaches Both Obvious and Subtle"
(#CMG) Creative Mountain Games - Visit the CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/ 
CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!

(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)

Participating:
alsih2o
CMG_Nichar
FastLearner
Kerrick
Lexan
Mark_CMG
Napftor
Ostler
Painfully
Rasyr
Sutekh
Vaxalon

Mark_CMG Let's get started.  Tonight we're discussing "Plot Hooks: Approachs Both Obvious and Subtle."   Let's just go around the room and make mention of our various levels of DMing experience, please. (smiles)

alsih2o I have rotated in and out for almost 20 years...

CMG_Nichar 10 or so years on and off...

Ostler Year and a half or so...

Vaxalon I've been a DM for over twenty years.  I've run DnD in every version since basic, skipping 2e.  I've run WW games, GURPS games, Amber diceless, and a whole host of others too numerous to name.

Lexan None. (smiles)

Painfully Since '79...

Mark_CMG So everyone has at least some, except Lexan, which makes me curious.  (to Lexan) Is DMing something you are planning to try in the near future?

Sutekh Let me see... I first DMed when I was 12 and that was a very weird first of Dungeons and Dragons with the adventure straight out of the book.

Lexan I'd like to. I've only played D&D a few times when I was younger. I want to get back into the gaming scene, but I'd love to DM once I got deeper into it.

Sutekh ...to a friend who I could find who wanted to play.

Mark_CMG Cool.

Sutekh After that I DMed off an on... One campaign ran for about a year using Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying System.  Although I must admit I havnt DMed since the arrival of 3rd edition.  Although I did run a game just prior to the release of 3rd ed in #dnd3e at the old chat server. I cobbled together 2nd and 3rd ed rules from what they were releasing.

Mark_CMG The topic of plot hooks is not at all restricted to D&D though we'll mainly use that as our frame of reference.  The main difficulty in creating them is usually making them plausible without making the players feel as if they are being trapped in a situation.  By their very nature, plot hooks have to be contrived, but they somehow can't appear to be so.  Tricky business, that. (smiles)

Lexan One quick question from the new kid.  When referring to D&D, does this include DragonStar, Dominion, and other rules?  Or is Dragonstar a subset of D&D, while Dominion is a ruleset all on it's own.  Sorry for the interruption. (frowns)

Sutekh I don't know.  I've played under GMs who do no forward planning at all.  They make it up every second as they go and I don't think even they know where the games is going.

Vaxalon (to Lexan) D&D is its own thing.  D20 is a broader classification that includes Dragonstar.

Mark_CMG Can I ask each person in the room to toss in a one sentence plot hook that they have used (or in the case of those who haven't DMed, a plot hook that has hooked them)? (winks)

Vaxalon (to Sutekh) I can't do that.

Mark_CMG We'll try to be broad enough to cover most d20 genres.

alsih2o A manor continually appears and disappears in the woods.

Vaxalon The city council has sent two teams of ratcatchers and a squad of the city guard into the poverty-stricken neighborhood known as "The Butchery" and none of them have come out.

Mark_CMG Good ones so far... 

Sutekh Plot hook: Party are attack by a group of children on the way to attend a festival.  The kids are tierd, hungry... and very dead.  Their own parents turned on them and killed them to summon a fell creature and now the children are doomed to ambush people along the road for they cannot be killed until the party agrees to help them get justice.

Mark_CMG Ostler, Painfully, Nichar?

Painfully My plots are very NPC intensive, but here goes.  A dwarven prophecy foretells the coming of a comet that will gift the land with meteorites a simple chase/action plot.  Insert vI'llains and competition]

Sutekh ( I tend to run a much colder version of Fantasy. Not the Thank you.pical dancing with the faeries)

CMG_Nichar What I have to come up something?

Mark_CMG Yup. (smiles) Something you've used in the past?

Lexan The only plot hook I remember (I think it's a plot hook) was an adventure I was in where the adventure before had just killed off a dragon, we thought we were moving on to a new adventure but about halfway through we find out this dragon they defeated earlier was merely a drifting evil spirit infesting things. The dragon was just something it infested, and we had to track it down and finish it off.

CMG_Nichar Cool.

Painfully There are lots of books on writing good plot in any bookstore.  It is some of the best money you can spend if you are a DM looking for more stuff.  I've got one right here. (smiles)

Lexan It was pretty scary not knowing if the shop keeper you were talking to was actually the evil spirit, or and old man giving you directions was sending you to your doom or not.

CMG_Nichar I've tried to do a time shifting FR campaign.. taking characters from several hundred years in the past and putting them in the current time periods, and then making them find a way home.

Ostler Um...

Mark_CMG An example of a plot hook that you've used?

Lexan (to Nichar) Sounds fun, what was the source of time travel?

CMG_Nichar (to Lexan) A destabilized dimension door.

Ostler It's been a while since I've used one.  Right now the party is working for the king.  He gave them their current mission.

alsih2o (to Ostler) That counts. (smiles)

Mark_CMG OK.

CMG_Nichar I like to do that, too.

Mark_CMG Now on their face they all seem like very good set-ups for a game, but they can be perceived very differently depending on the frame of mind of the group that is playing.

alsih2o Agreed.

Sutekh Although I've come to a point in gaming where I get this strong sense of Deja Vu every time I'm playing.

Vaxalon I do LOTS of preparation.  It really helps the game move quickly, especially combat.  3e has SO many combinations of monsters, levels, templates, etc. that if you're not pre-generating them, you're missing out on 90% of the possibilities.

Sutekh (to Vaxalon) What about random encounters though? They aren't exactly random if you are waiting while the DM is busy rolling on table 22-A, crossreferencing and rolling on 24D and so on. So 10 minutes later on a walk that might take 5 minutes you are fighting 3 dire rats.

Mark_CMG How, in the case of the plot hooks throw in here, were they received by the groups?

Vaxalon I pre-roll random encounters, Sutekh.  If I know the PC's are going to be trekking overland, I make up a week or so worth of encounters and pre-generate.

Sutekh Lots of DMs don't.  I won't use Random encounters.

alsih2o My group climbed all over the manor, and sprang thru its gate when they breifly opened, very cooperative...

Ostler My group likes it.  The paladin of the party has good ties with the king.  If they don't feel like deciding where to head next, they ask the paladin.

Mark_CMG But let's focus on the group _as players_...

CMG_Nichar The group I had didn't realize the change in time until it was too late.

Vaxalon (to Sutekh) I don't always use them either.  I put them in when the PCs are crossing really dangerous territory.

Painfully Well, I think the safe assumption is that when you offer your players [i.e., the PCs] an adventure, they generally take the bait.  The key thing is to build a reasonable motivation for the PCs.

Mark_CMG (continuing) Not on what they did in game, but how they reacted when presented with the plot hooks. (smiles)

Sutekh Any more questions for us?

alsih2o Well, the characters were helped along by a cry for help..supposedly from a dying pregnant woman.

Painfully In my case (with the comet), they were greeted and revealed the prophecy by a dwarven cleric with premonitions about the possible landing area of a meteorite, and since all the PCs were dwarves (except one greedy halfling) it worked out well.

CMG_Nichar They found the portal in a cave and decided to see what was on the other side...

Sutekh (laughs) ...prophecies... do they ever work?

Painfully It's good to use ONCE a campaign.

Sutekh IVe yet to see a game where a campaign spanning prophecy has worked because for the most part the key character has moved state mid-game. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (chuckles)  That's awkward when a player moves away.

Vaxalon (to Sutekh) I don't generally use them, unless the prophesy comes from a less reputable source.  And I don't use personal prophesies, generally.  I have the prophets tell what will happen if SOMEONE doesn't stop the coming evil.

Mark_CMG One of the main problems with prophecies is that in a game where you don't really know what is supposed to happen, you can't really predict the future unless you have things that are not affected by the players.

Ostler I have a war going on between to kingdoms in my campaign.  Prophesies have said the winner of the war will take over the entire world.

alsih2o ...and that gets rough on the players.

Lexan (to Sutekh) How do you use prophecies if you campaign is not planned out before hand?

Vaxalon (to Mark_CMG) Except that you ALWAYS have things that aren't controlled by the players.

Painfully My plot was actually an action plot, where different groups of power competed to grab the meteor.  The divination/prophecy only let them know where to go to find the landing site.

Vaxalon Good example, Painfully.

Painfully Only a few select evil bosses knew how to divine it being a comet, I had it visit the world every 700 years.

Mark_CMG (to Vaxalon) But having things that the players can't affect in some way takes away a large element of what makes it a game, doesn't it?

Sutekh (to Lexan) I plan my games.  I was talking earlier about DMs I used to play with...

Lexan (to Sutekh) Ah, sorry, misunderstood. (smiles)

Vaxalon (to Mark_CMG) Not at all.  Things should always be happening "off screen" that the PCs can't affect.

Mark_CMG (to Vaxalon) I agree that things need to happen off screen, but once the players are involved, they need to be able to effect things in some way.

Sutekh Otherwise it's not a game.  It's a story.

Ostler I like to think things should happen "off screen" that the player "could" change but may not be able or intersted in changing.

Mark_CMG If a prophesy involves the players, well, like Sutkh says, it's a story and no longer a game.

Vaxalon (to Ostler) Certainly.  "Not able" is a REALLY REALLY big list.

Sutekh That's why I avoid Prophecies like the Plague.  The loss of a few players can blow them outta the water.

Vaxalon (to Sutekh) Not if you make them impersonal prophesies.

Painfully Rather than calling it a prophecy, its probably better to tell it as a "legend" and not include particular "heroes" in that legend.

Sutekh "Oh whoops.. The Golden child moved to a town 400 kms away..."

Vaxalon "The Black Rock of Rogoland will come and destroy the city of Bookend unless someone can climb onto it and steer it away" is a prophesy.

Mark_CMG Vax is getting to my next point.  Prophesies work if they either have no outcome dictated by them or they are vague enough to apply no matter the outcome.

Sutekh Impersonal prophecies defeat the purpose of having prophecies though.  You want them specific.

Painfully But you can avoid a lot of problems by avoiding particular persons or earth-shattering events in your prophecies.

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) I disagree.  They must enhance the game, or then they defeat the purpose.

Painfully Imagine it both ways.

Sutekh 'The Golden haired Small child (halfling Rogue) will save the queen from her dream (Queen being attacked by a Feyr.)

Painfully Whether your PCs were involved, and another where they are totally uninvolved.

alsih2o Yeah.  Prophecies can become apersonal.

Painfully You need to accept both possibilities.

Mark_CMG Actually, you really don't want to throw anything into a game that forces an outcome.

alsih2o Rght.

Sutekh ...and trust me, you would have players in the group who struggle against the prophecy to the point where they will go out of their way to break the prophecy and prevent it.

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) The trouble in your last example is (if you mean the halfling to be a PC) that the PC may die or the group may fail to save the queen.

Vaxalon (to Mark_CMG) Why is the group failing to save the queen a trouble?   The queen gets killed, the game goes on.

Sutekh (to Mark_CMG) Which is why I don't use a Prophecy at all.

Mark_CMG But if the prophesy states that "Only a Golden Haired boy can save the Queen" then you aren't stuck with an outcome dictated by the prophesy.

Painfully If you get too specific, the golden-haired child example above, it will force you down a particular path.  It is railroading for the golden-haired child.

Mark_CMG Painfully, a clever group might use a polymorph to make one of the PCs a golden haired boy. (smiles)

Sutekh Exactly.  That's my point.

Mark_CMG Which is one solution and fine.

Painfully It shouldn't be so restrictive that only a golden haired child can do X Y or Z.

Sutekh The group is either gonna go out of its way to fulfill the prophecy or is gonna do everything in its power to make sure it dosnt happen.

alsih2o Isn't that the point?

Mark_CMG But, Sutekh, saying "will save" instead of "is the only one who can save" makes a world of difference.

Painfully Never tread on player character choices...its bad form for a DM.

Mark_CMG (to Painfully) True.

Painfully So prophecies that include PCs, or even some NPCs are a bad thing, in my opinion.  You need to let them happen with or without PC input and be willing to accept either outcome.

Sutekh I think it also comes down to what the players want. Ive seen players drop from games when the Gm picks a favorite .. makes them leader and centres a Prophecy around them and his loyal band defeating a great danger

Mark_CMG (to Painfully) They can still be made vague but important, which is OK. (to Sutekh) That's out next point, so let's move into it

Sutekh Sweet.

Lexan (to Sutekh) Would prophecies involving the entire party keep that from happeneing though?

Mark_CMG When it comes to hooks, it's important to be inclusive of the entire group.

Napftor Making a party member leader should, IMO, only be done once in a great while.

Sutekh I only answer questions from Mark_CMG. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Lexan) Yup. (grins)

alsih2o (laughs)

Mark_CMG Anyone is welcome to ask questions in here of anyone else. (smiles)

Lexan From my little bit of knowledge of D&D I take it as a game for an entire party to work as a team to accomplish goals. Choosing a leader limits that parties ability to work together, by giving one person more power physically. I think player's should have a natural leader based on who is best equipped to handle the situation at hand. Therefore, the leader will change trhoughout the adventure, depending on who can handle it better.

Mark_CMG So let's discuss inclusiveness in plot hooks a bit...

alsih2o Sometimes it is hard to gather in a character because of a limited player.

Mark_CMG Meaning a player who isn't always at the games?

alsih2o Well, I actually meant a more timid player, but the other is true, too.

Painfully I think group leaders are chosen by the group rather than the DM, or they should be.

Mark_CMG (to Lexan) The "Floating Leader" is a good thing for groups, if it can be accomplished.

alsih2o Lexan made a strong point...

FastLearner Leaders most often arise naturally.  I've found that if their position isn't specifically acknowledged by the DM (as "Party Leader"), it usually all works out quite well.

Painfully My group actually doesn't have a leader at the moment.

alsih2o My group rallies behind the bard...

Mark_CMG So, looking back on the plot hooks that everyone gave above, how might they be changed to avoid forcing an outcome and to also make sure they are inclusive of an entire group?  Any of those need to be changed a little?

alsih2o ...he has an 18 cha, and in real life is the smartest. (smiles)

FastLearner Inclusive hooks are somewhat difficult, I find, if the players all have fleshed out backgrounds and goals. It's sometimes impossible to find common goals.

alsih2o Well, my group all had different motivations.

Mark_CMG (to Napftor and FastLearner) Feel free to give us all a recent hook you used and then make any adjustments to it as we go. (smiles)

Painfully Well, my dwarf party (+1 halfing) included themselves for the reward they would get from the dwarven clan, and the debt the clan would owe them if they succeeded.

Sutekh Then again, you also have players that expect their character to be the leader and will actively work against the leader in roleplaying situations.

Painfully It's one thing to receive monetary awards, it's another to receive the gratitude of an entire clan.

FastLearner "An innocent is in trouble," I say. "Let's rescue him," says the paladin. "Who cares?" asks the neutral druid. "Screw that," says the rogue.

Painfully So a bit of both worked well for my players...

Sutekh Gratitude doesn't mean much if...

Lexan The hook we had (drifting evil spirit) let the floating leader happen naturally. When we came across a situation that only one player, or a few players could tackle we would gatehr behind them and trust them to lead us through it.

Sutekh ...A) You never go back to the place you got gratitude from. B) You aren't of the racial type to be accepted there anyway.  (As a reward, "Gratitude" is pretty stingy...)

Painfully You have to make your rewards fit your players.  You need to know what they want and what motivates them.  My reward was quite well suited to my group and it implies a relationship with the clan, not just a, "thank you, have a nice day." attitude.

alsih2o In many ways, in most D&D games, the reward IS the hook.

CMG_Nichar True.

Napftor Amen.

Sutekh Yeah.  Well "Gratitude" from a clan means less than nothing if they are an insular dwarven clan who never leave and thus you will never be able to redeem that gratitude because you will never come back this way or see one in a random city.

alsih2o XP is nice, and everyone likes to roleplay, but bootie is what it is all about.

CMG_Nichar D&D games are a viscious circle...

Lexan There was no reward that I recall in my game, other than just trying to find this evil spirit and get rid of it.  The reward was succesfully completing our adventure and building our characters up.

Mark_CMG It might not hurt to have an occasional roving band from that clan who might be able to help out in some later adventure.

Sutekh I've got DMs that NEVER give out booty... Ever.

Painfully I think a lot of people miss the character side of the story.  You need to learn how to reward your players.  I see a lot of "video game" style of play where the reward is the next magic item or loot.

FastLearner Have the hooks discussed so far assume heroic players?

Napftor You could reuse the dwarven gratitude scenario later on by placing friends of that clan in the players vicinity.

Sutekh If the clan has friends...

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Possibly, but we're discussing things fairly generally...

Sutekh Dwarves normally have no friends.

Napftor As the DM, use your creative control.

Sutekh In fact a friendly Dwarf is one so drunk he is letting you pay his tab and letting you help him home... maybe.

Napftor And it depends on the setting your in as well.  And where you're going with your uber plot

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) Try not to assume that the game in which you play is the only way that anyone will play. (smiles)

Sutekh I'm not assuming it.  Ive been gaming since I was 9.

Mark_CMG Some DMs may have much more gregarious Dwarf clans...

Sutekh Albeit to an Australian gamer community not an American one.

Painfully Your dwarves may have their own flavor...but it's unsafe to assume everyone keeps their dwarves in the same mold.

Sutekh Americans seem to actually have to pay for gaming, which strikes me as very strange.

Napftor Well that explains it...Australian dwarves!  (winks)

alsih2o Pay?

FastLearner Pay for gaming?  Which Americans?

CMG_Nichar (laughs)

Mark_CMG Makes no difference.  Everyone has different ways of playing and some DMs may run dwarves (and other things) in ways that you may be unfamiliar.

Sutekh The ones that play in the 'Living' Campaigns.  They pay for game days, RPGA-based etc.  Whereas I'd never do that.

Napftor The important thing is not to undermine the characteristics of races that your players take for granted.

FastLearner Ah.  Definitely not most Americans then.

Mark_CMG I've done both and been gaming since 74, so I think you can trust me on that one. (winks)

Sutekh (chuckles) I was born 3 years later...

Painfully OK.  Let's move on.  Where were we?

CMG_Nichar (to Mark_CMG) You've been gaming longer than I've been alive...

Sutekh Damn.

Napftor Inclusive plot hooks?

Sutekh Someone here is very ancient. (smiles)

alsih2o Careful there..

Mark_CMG In any event, let's discuss "Heroic" hooks, since that was brought up, eh?

alsih2o OK.

Sutekh Sure.

Mark_CMG What makes a hook "Heroic" to each of you?

Sutekh I'd say most Heroic games normally involve at least 1 Paladin.

Mark_CMG OK.

Lexan I'm not even sure what a Heroic hook would be considered.

Mark_CMG Let's find out from our attendees. (smiles) Anyone else?

alsih2o Goals over reward, and a "good" theme.

Napftor I suppose any hook in which the end result is a particularly "good" act.

Mark_CMG (to Lexan) What makes you think of Heros in general and what would involve them?

Painfully Good over evil...the great mission to defeat the great evil "thing."

FastLearner Something that aids another without concern for reward.

Lexan Players not taking their own sake into consideration, but doing things for the sake of the party and completing the task at hand.  I would say.

Ostler I agree: goals over reward.

Mark_CMG OK, can we all agree on "Good over Evil" and "Goals over Reward"?

Napftor Sure.

CMG_Nichar Yes.

Mark_CMG ...and maybe including a paladin? (winks)

alsih2o Well, I can.

CMG_Nichar Oh, alright... (mutters - darned goody two shoes paladins....)

Mark_CMG Sutekh?

FastLearner I'm a little unsure on "Goals over reward," since accomplishing a goal is, generally, a reward.

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Let's say over monetary reward?

alsih2o Well, I meant to seperate reward as "goodies."

Napftor Only if there's no reward offered.

alsih2o (smiles)

Lexan I agree, FastLearner.  Most games I played the only reward you got was to complete the goal and the XP your characters gained in doing so.

Sutekh Sorry?

Mark_CMG OK, can we all agree on "Good over Evil" and "Goals over Reward"?

Painfully Yep.

alsih2o Yeppers.

Lexan Yep.

CMG_Nichar Yes.

Napftor Make it so...

Sutekh Don't look at me, I rarely play in an Heroic game. (smiles)

Painfully The mission...

FastLearner Don't let me slow y'all down, but I still disagree on goals.

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) Well, can you agree for our purposes here?

Lexan (laughs)

FastLearner An evil dictator's goal is to gain power.  Doesn't make him heroic.

Sutekh Sure.

Mark_CMG Thanks. (grins)

FastLearner Let's move on... Yes.

Sutekh I'll agree to anything.

Painfully But the heroic goal is to put down the dictator and save the people from his rulership.

Mark_CMG Let's each of us throw in a plot hook that fits those two parameters. ...as Painfully just did (winks)

alsih2o Save a pregnant sati...

FastLearner A village is threatened by a racing wildfire and needs help evacuating.  The hook is the desire to help the helpless.

Mark_CMG Good ones so far...

Painfully Rescuing the princess from the dragon...

Napftor When one of the character's relatives goes missing, he implores the other party members for assistance but will go it alone if need be.

FastLearner Non-heroically the hook is to loot the village while it's in turmoil. (smiles)

Sutekh Hook: Temple to Waukeen is split. 2 rival groups vie for control. One being priests of a good alignment. The other group decidedly nastier in their actions. will the players attempt to keep the peace, imprison the 'evil' clerics.. despite what this might do to the faith or kill them all.  (Oops.. take away the kill them all.)

Ostler Find and assemble to pieces of a soul shattered god and retore the god.  Insert "good" in there where appropriate (smiles)

FastLearner (true for a good-aligned God)

Sutekh Unfortunetly most of the evil gods are the ones who end up soul shattered. (smiles)

Mark_CMG I wondere how the "kill them all" got in there (smiles)

Sutekh (chuckles)

Lexan I think he removed it due to the Good nature of the GOod vs. Evil

Sutekh I'm a tad angry at religon in general. (smiles)

Mark_CMG We won't be going there...

Sutekh Then again... in the end a Good Paladin is killing Evil priests.  It's still death.  It's just done in the name of good.

Mark_CMG Nonetheless, that's a topic for another time... (smiles)

Sutekh Exactly. (smiles)

Lexan (smiles)

Sutekh ...and religon always makes for a good plot hook.

FastLearner A mysterious disease is killing only dwarven children, and Remove Disease has no effect. The party is to find the cure or find the source.

Mark_CMG Let's look at a couple of the above examples.  Painfully's is simple and time honored -  rescuing the princess from the dragon.  But some might find it cliche. So how do we dress it up and give it a new face?

Ostler Dracolich? (smiles)

CMG_Nichar Demon Princess?

Sutekh Make the princess an ugly goblin princess.

FastLearner The princess is from an ancient bloodline whose presence is required to activate a gate.

Sutekh Something you wouldnt expect.  Hell.. even a Troll bride.

Mark_CMG I like all of those. (smiles)

Lexan The princess is from your family's born enemies, the right thing is to save her, but your family and her family have been at war for years.

Painfully Make her a good sorceress, a protector of her people, and she got swiped by a dragon that needed a wife.

FastLearner The dragon has an obsession with the princess and has failed at wooing her in his human form.

Mark_CMG Perhaps we can even take that as is, and adjust the setting to make it unusual?

Sutekh The Dragon wants something in return... possibly an item, maybe even the answer to a question so simple that nobody can answer it.

Ostler Wight dragon not the rumored White Dragon...

alsih2o (laughs)

FastLearner The dragon has actually rescued the princess, not kidnapped her.

Mark_CMG (chuckles)

Painfully It's just window dressing...the idea is the same...something evil has captured and contained something good.

Mark_CMG OK.  At it's root...

Painfully The heroes need to go in and release the good from its cage.

Lexan You must rescue the baby dragon that the princess took as a pet.

Sutekh ...or maybe the Princess is the baby dragon.

Mark_CMG What about this one from FL? -  "A village is threatened by a racing wildfire and needs help evacuating.  The hook is the desire to help the helpless."

Sutekh ...but she dosnt know it.

FastLearner The princess is a powerful sorceress and has imprisoned the dragon, siphoning his power for her evil aims, but has disguised the situation.

Painfully or else the evil thing might now grow into something unstoppable

Mark_CMG Anymore or shall we look at that next one?

Sutekh Did you want a variation on that Mark or just some feedback?

Ostler Helping the helpless is easy if there is a paladin...

Lexan The village mayor actually set the fire for the insurance check.

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) Both. (smiles)

alsih2o Add a population more at risk.  Fey possibly?

FastLearner Some of the elders refuse to leave their homes.

CMG_Nichar I'd say someone lost control of a Fire Elemental.

Mark_CMG Good suff.

Sutekh Well.. personally I've never actually been involved in a plot where a Village has been on fire.  So I'd run with it as is.  You may want the first to be cause by an impresson mephit or efreet who has awakened inside somebodies lamp etc.

Lexan The village is overtaken with disease, the governement has burned it down to control the disease.  But, some people without the disease will die in the fire.

Ostler Not to rehash but what if there is a prophesy that one of the villagers will bring peace to the world?

Sutekh (laughs)

FastLearner The fire is led by a gang of fire elementals, attempting to take down a temple to a goddess of water.

Mark_CMG (laughs)

alsih2o ...or a more immobile risk- the fire threatens a town with a great library, and the populace left the books.

Sutekh Lexan brought up a good one with a very good ... good/evil dilemma.

Lexan Thank you, Sutekh.

Mark_CMG Yup.  Very good twist with that dilemma.

Sutekh Would you try to save everyone or save the ones that you could without exposing yourself to greater risk?  Now... Risk leads to Heroism

FastLearner Rescuing the village means not rescuing those in the abbey that will be hit by the fire first. There are only two dozen people in the abbey, and over 200 in the village. The abbey is devoted to one of the PC's gods.

alsih2o oooooh

Mark_CMG Nice.

alsih2o Very nice.

Sutekh See now thats very easy to resolve.  A heroic game/character will save the people.  Whereas an non-heroic might save the people or the temple people.

Mark_CMG Or maybe allow that both can be done, if the proper skills are applied in the right place and the party is split in an advantageous way?

Sutekh Especially if there is a reward for doing so.  God of Wealth/God of Trade etc.

Napftor The abbey would have more money, so non-heroic types would save it.

Sutekh (to Mark_CMG) Again splitting up might be the heroic thing to do.

FastLearner Allowing for both is a good possibility.  Perhaps there are some in the abbey who could Create Water or something, reducing the risk for all.

Sutekh You see the evil eyes DMs give you when the party is split up though?

Napftor I keep a spare set of eyes for just that ocassion, Sutek.

Lexan (laughs)

FastLearner I really dislike splitting up the party.  Hmm, maybe that hook's not so great.

Sutekh Players groan, "don't go off by yourself man, you will just die."  The DM has that cold glare and suggest that the task could be better accomplished if you stayed together even if that wouldn't be the logical choice.

Napftor That hook is good but the DM should include something hidden well that would aid in saving both areas.

Mark_CMG If the adventure is designed in a way that holds no real danger in spliting the party, it might be OK.

Sutekh Yeah..  It's dangerous territory though. DM wrath.  I tend to avoid it.

Lexan What if the floor within the temple was weak and only one party member at a time could enter...

Mark_CMG Most adventures (these days) are designed with the group staying together, so splitting can be a big problem.  Shall we look at another one? (to Lexan) Good one.  "A mysterious disease is killing only dwarven children, and Remove Disease has no effect.  The party is to find the cure or find the source."

Sutekh That shouldn't matter though.  The best Heroes are the ones that work alone, so a Paladin might shine trying to save a burning building by himself with the rest of the party looting.  I mean saving the Abbey.

Napftor Wouldn't one have to identify the source first?

Lexan The dwarven children are constantly destroying town shops with their games, are nothing but a pack of thugs, who defy authority.

Ostler no dwarves in party = no interest ?

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) Let us say, rather, that the best heroes *can be* the ones that work alone. (winks)

Sutekh Yeah.

FastLearner Dwarven lore hints at a cure that involves lifting a curse.

Sutekh Superman works best by himself. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Superman is not the only hero that ever was or ever will be. (winks)

Lexan Spiderman...

Napftor Half-way through the adventure, the dwarves recover, only to succumb to something else hours later.

Sutekh Sorry...  Let's get back to the new topic.  Let me see...

Mark_CMG Yup.

Sutekh Maybe the Dwarves have been cursed?

Mark_CMG Try to be inclusive.

Sutekh So their children die...

alsih2o The disease is released when the duregar, who drink from the same water source filter it out, have been destroyed by the dwarf clan and must be restored.

FastLearner The dwarven children have been found playing in an underground field of spores not seen before. (to alsih2o) Ooh, nice one, alsih2o!

alsih2o Thanks.

Lexan Town rumor says the children are not sick, but are robbing all those that try to help.

Sutekh I tend to look at it different. Dwarves get all that natural near immunity to poison and disease and because 3rd ed opened them up to magic a lot more.  I'd work on it more from that angle. A Galeb Duhr has cursed the dwarves because of their continual  push into his mountains.  They have killed some of his friends and he wants justice.

Mark_CMG Nice.

Sutekh So, again, it provides the party with a dilemma.  Who is right?

FastLearner The children have been playing with a doll they found.  Only the ones who have played with the doll for an extended time have become ill.

Sutekh If they cure the Dwarven children, the parents will just go back to raping the mines in the mountain.

Lexan The children sickness is a curse from the gods for their parents sins.

FastLearner I like that kind of dilemma, Sutekh.

Sutekh If they do nothing the kids die and the dwarves die out.

Lexan Very good, Sutekh.

Sutekh (I've run this one, by the way) (smiles)

Lexan (laughs)

FastLearner One thing I've found, though, is that if every adventure is gray most players become dissatisfied that they can "never be right".

Sutekh ...and I've liked Galeb Duhrs ever since I played Menzobberanzan.

CMG_Nichar Cool.

Sutekh (to FastLearner) It may not be grey though.

Napftor Yeah.  It might be gray.

Sutekh A dwarf or 2 in the party will make it very black and white.

Lexan True, FastLearner.  If you never know if what you are doing is right, it almost makes you scared t omake the next move because you wonder what effect it will have on the rest of the area, world, what have you.

Sutekh 'They kill my family, they die!' and you can always replace the dwarves with halflings and Gnomes or even humans.  Not elves though.  Elven miners are pretty rare. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Perhaps "rare"... (smiles)

Sutekh (chuckles)

Mark_CMG (grins)

Sutekh When you see an Elven Miner tell me. (smiles)

Napftor Like elven lumberjacks...

FastLearner I had an ongoing campaign where the PCs where helping some revolutionaries, but it was never really clear if the revolutionaries would be better or worse for the kingdom.  Eventually the players didn't want to help anyone.

Mark_CMG That's interesting.

Sutekh (to FastLearner) That's where you seed tales of the Revolutionaries using Blood magic or demon assasins.

Lexan Just curios, FastLearner.  What direction did you move the game after you noticed they didn't want to help them out.

Mark_CMG What factors went into their ambivalence?  What made them finally step away?

FastLearner I eventually capitulated and demonstrated that, while the revolutionaries were certainly selfish in a lot of ways, the existing kingdom was clearly evil. The party and the revolutionaries eventually took down the kingdom but...

Sutekh (to FastLearner) Was there a Paladin in the party?

FastLearner ...the PCs ensured that certain laws were in place to help ensure that the party was treated fairly.

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) (smiles)

FastLearner I mean the people were treated fairly.  No paladin, this was EarthDawn, actually.

Sutekh Paladins tend to drive a game sometimes.  In that situation, I've seen Paladins spend days detecting evil on people.  So in your setting the party might of taken sides a lot quicker.

FastLearner The ambivalence came from the revolutionaries being willing to strong arm the commoners in order to eat, arm themselves, etc.

Sutekh (to FastLearner) When its hard to see who is good or evil, Heroes flounder. (smiles)

Rasyr Topic of plot hooks, huh?

Lexan Yes.

FastLearner Aye, Sutekh.

Rasyr Has anybody ever tried to get plot hooks from the backgrounds of the PCs?

Napftor Oh, yes.

Sutekh That's the first place I check!  Assuming of course they bother with a background.

Mark_CMG OK.  Shall we move on to that new question?

Sutekh Shoot.

Rasyr When I GM, I require some sort of background... especially if they have any sort of package deals.  I also normally get the players to write up a list of goals for their characters, so that I can use these as plot hooks as well, thus the characters' own goals drive the plots.

Lexan (to Rasyr) How early before the game do you get that info?  How long do you plan the plot hooks?

Mark_CMG OK, let's move along and bring in that exact topic: "Player's backgrounds for plot hooks"...

FastLearner OK, cool.

Rasyr yippee!!

Mark_CMG (to Rasyr) Please, go right ahead answer that question and we'll just roll along from there.

Rasyr OK, what I do is to get them to write a list of goals when we start the game...

FastLearner The big question I have about it is avoiding the problems you guys were talking about regarding prophecies: making one player the focus of the whole game for too long.

Rasyr ...then I have them update the list whenever one of their goals changes...

Sutekh Totally dependant on how much the DM takes interest in the actualy characters as opposed to what is happening around them plot wise. If he is willing to build plots from scratch or use their religon, race, gender, morality as a plot hook to itself.

Rasyr I am a very flexible GM, and can wing it wit ease, so this works for me.

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) I think we've almost all agreed it's a bad idea to focus too much of the game on a single player (if that's the question?)

Lexan I think it can help out a lot in deciding good hooks that will catch a players attention, as long as you get the info in time to do enough planning. While focusing on one player's goals as the hook, make sure you have things that the other player's have to accomplish to keep them involved.

FastLearner Sorry, no, the question is: If you base your hook on a character's background, how do you keep everyone involved?

Sutekh For starters I think the first thing you do is look for compatability and incompatability.

Rasyr ...with prophecies, you should make them as vague as possible, or actually have several characters that it could apply to, if you can.

FastLearner Gotcha.

Rasyr You base hooks around all the players...

Lexan Yeah, some goals just won't be possible within the adventure, but could be considered for future adventures.

Sutekh I.E. Which character wont get along with another?  Will the priest of X get along with the follower of Y?  Why are people travelling around with a Drow or Dueregar in the party?

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Thanks for clarifying.  I see what you mean now.

Rasyr You present opportunities for the characters to accomplish goals.

Napftor The last backrgound hook I developed involved a brother the PC didn't know he had...this evil brother was the leader of a group the party fought in a particular adventure.  There's total party involvement.

Rasyr The fun starts when two more PCs can complete a goal, but have to decide whose to complete, cause the others will be lost for the time being.

Mark_CMG But what about when, as happens in the real world, someone moves away, or can't make it for a handful of sessions, etc?

Sutekh I've always found that to be the most odd, especially in ECL games.  You have one to two players who decide to play something strange like a Drow.  So you have a party of 2 elves, a Human a Dwarf and a Drow.

Lexan Have feats that only a specific character can accomplish, or feats that take the entire party to do, all working toward one of the party member's goals - while not making this obvious to that party member.

Mark_CMG Lex)Careful not to use the word "feat" as interchangable with "task" as it does mean something specific in d20.

Lexan Ah, thank you.

Mark_CMG No problem. (smiles)

Sutekh (to Mark_CMG) What I've seen happen is the DM collect character sheets and npc the character or let another player NPC it.

Ostler I have character goals that can be accompished in a "short" amount of time but are not time sensitive ie. must be done within a time limit.

Mark_CMG I find that as problematic...

Napftor If we're in a city, then the missing player's PC simply wanders off on "personal business."

Rasyr That is how I have done it... but instead of collecting sheets, I usually keep a PC summary sheet with the most important info available to me.

Mark_CMG ...as much as not having the player there.

Sutekh Well, you can't stop the game just because 1 player isn't showing.

Lexan Probably not the best method, but we always found a way to get rid of that party member.  They're sister was having a wedding so they needed to go back to the town of X to attend and will meet back with the party here on this date.

Sutekh That isn't fair on everyone else.

Rasyr This also allows me to request rolls, without asking for them to add in a skill (as I already have it.)

Mark_CMG Let's assume that solution needs to be found in the set up, not in whether or not the characters can be played in absence of the player, OK?

Rasyr OK.

Mark_CMG Just for the sake of debate, so to speak...

Sutekh (chuckles)

Lexan I don't understand. (frowns)

Rasyr For setup, I would suggest creating a summary sheet, which has the most important info for the character (most common skills, Attack bonus, defenses, spells, etc...)

Sutekh Having characters related can be very cool.  If they can pull it off.

FastLearner Family: member in trouble, member is foe, member will award party for task.

Mark_CMG Well, let's say you're moving along with a plot based around one particular character, and in RL they come up with some reason they cannot be there for an indefiniite number of sessions.  How do you switch tracks?

Sutekh They decide they have to leave the group to pursue the task... alone.

alsih2o You have to find an appropriate "subplot."

Sutekh Or maybe go on a vision-quest etc so they can see how to defeat the problem.

Rasyr That one is tougher... I try not to have any single plot so dependant upon one character as to make that situation come up...

Ostler An enemy abducts them leaving few if any clues.

FastLearner Nationality: home in trouble, current location hates PC's nationality.

Kerrick Make a it a red herring.. it was really about someone else in the party all along.

Lexan I like FastLearner's suggestion, and remove that player from the party by actually making them a spy, a foe. Of course, they can't return as that character in that adventure, but if need be have them return later from an NPC they meet on the way.

Mark_CMG (to Kerrick) Interesting idea.

FastLearner (credit to someone else)

Rasyr I normally do not lead the party at all, but let them make all decisions, just providing clues to goals to the group as a whole.

Napftor That character is hit by an incredibly strong poison that puts him under.  The module is then spent finding a cure instead of pursuing that PC's plot.

Lexan I agree with Rasyr, and a hook that is dependant upon one character that much doesn't seem well planned.

Sutekh The major problem I find with games nowadays is that its becoming a real problem with people being non-regular games. You might have 3 people one week, full team the next, 2 the next week and 4 the week after. The priority people put on actually getting to the game is bad.

Kerrick We have that problem, too - and some of the gamers live across the street!

CMG_Nichar Yikes.

Napftor That's true, Sutekh, I only can game once a month because of conflicitng schedules.

Rasyr With that type of attendance, the group might do better playing Champions or something.

Lexan I can't find any gamer in Tallahassee!

Rasyr Where you can have something episodic....

Sutekh You see what I mean though.  It's because people put such a low priority on gaming... if something comes up the day before a lot will drop the gaming to go to x other thing.

Napftor That's poor form.

Sutekh I think thats the major threat to roleplaying nowadays.

Kerrick Yeah.

Rasyr There are always XP penalties.  I.E the ones there get extra XP, while those missing get none.  Thus those who bother to show up advance faster.

Sutekh But it could also point to the GM though.  The players aren't showing cause they think the game is crap.

Lexan Setup a predetermined agreement that missing one session will cause your character to be destroyed by an act of the gods.  Of course, this can lead to parties only being 2 or even 1 player large...

Sutekh (chuckles) No thanks.

Mark_CMG (laughs)

Sutekh 2 player games suck.

Lexan (laughs) Yeah.

Mark_CMG Might be a bit of a cop out, too. (winks)

Lexan Start with 20 memeber parties. (laughs)

Napftor I think 2 player games might be....cozy.

Rasyr What is worse, is the gamer who just doesn't show, and when you ask about it, says "I just didn't feel like playing yesterday" and they never even called to whatever.

Sutekh You may as well play magic if there are 2 players.

Kerrick We have those, Rasyr.

Mark_CMG Let's get back around to Plot Hooks, though. (smiles)

Sutekh (to Mark_CMG) Feed us a new hook then. (smiles)

Lexan I could see how some hooks could work better with only 2 players though.

Mark_CMG How about if we discuss small group plot hooks and how they might need to be different than for larger parties?

Rasyr In one game I ran, I had a player who missed 8 sessions in a row, due to work and would never tell me he was scheduled to work until the day before.

Napftor Define "larger parties"

Rasyr I finally got fed up and told him that his character was being dropped from the party until he could show up more regularly, and that if he could not, then don't bother coming back...

Sutekh Small groups tend to die a lot more.  Normally there is so allotment for luck rolls.  (I.E. The goblin attacking and rolling 20 twice killing a level oner instantly.)

Lexan I think small party hooks have to have a much more common theme.  It's not believable that two people would go out hunting for a dragon but if two brothers went out looking for an orc that killed their father - believable.

Sutekh You have a larger player pool so that dosnt matter as much.

Mark_CMG Let's call "larger" four or more.

Napftor OK.

Painfully I started with two players once.  I used a city adventure to give a lot of interactions with NPCs.  They got to know certain NPCs, who to avoid, who can help them, etc.

Sutekh Smaller groups aren't really suited for epic length games either.  If it's a club environment, those 2-3 players might be waiting for a better game to open up then they leave.

Rasyr OK.  In asking players for backgrounds, I feel the GM should always ask them to include a reason why they would be adventuring with a group, any group...

Lexan Short find the treasure hooks would suit small parties more.

Napftor I think hooks for larger groups should be a bit more epic (not read as ELH) in scope to gather in the many different personalities.

Sutekh (to Rasyr) Ask the people playing Drow. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (smiles)

Sutekh 'Oh, I heard of the legend of Drizzt Do'urden and went to the surface to do good things' *bzzzz*

Rasyr No drow in my games.  I run good characters (general good, not alignment good.)

Sutekh Died in Childbirth..

Rasyr Actually don't even use drow in my settings... (I like kobolds too much..)

Sutekh You would think.  Drow society.  Lots of priestesses.  Paranoia.  Detect Good/Evil on Children.  Child death.

Napftor Go figure.

Sutekh Assuming of course that the core of every Drow is evil.

Rasyr Kobolds are some of the most under-rated bad guys around!!

Napftor Which baits the question: Is alignment determined at birth, or a product of environment?

Rasyr Environment.... then again, I don't use alignment either. (chuckles)

Kerrick No offense.. but what has this to do with plot hooks?

Sutekh Both.  A Red Dragon will always be CE.  It's as much a genetic thing (like high blood pressure, Obesity ) as it is environment.

Mark_CMG Let's list some hooks based on alignments, please?

Kerrick OK.

Sutekh OK.

alsih2o The sati hook was alignment based...

Kerrick The paladin who's out to rid the world of evil (cliche, I know...)

Mark_CMG Expand it, alsih2o, please. (smiles)

Rasyr LG hooks ----- asked to help local church escort a pilgrim to a distant shrine said pilgrim happens to be a converted monster like an ogre.... who happens to now be a pacifist.

alsih2o Well, the sati (bride thrown on a funeral pyre) wished to be kept alive until her child was born...and our chaotic party wanted to back her up against her lawful family who wnated her burned with the coprpse immediately.

Kerrick LE - a member of  a criminal organization, like the Mafia, who is sent on missions by his superiors?

Sutekh Hook: Party to traveling to a festival put on by the temple of Selune. Upon arrival they witness a mystical event, the birth of a Silver Dragon. The dragon though attacks the high priest.. killing him while the Adult mother looks on alarmed. What does the party do to this noble and supposedly good 'child'?

Napftor LN hook--A necromancer is gathering parts of an artifact that would raise all dead within many miles.  Since this would unbalance the status quo, the LN'ers would fight the necromancer.

Rasyr (to Napftor) That works for true N as well.

Napftor Sure.

Painfully I don't know if I build any plot hooks by alignment, but I do have a group of devoted guardians that protect the artifact of a LG god, who have in turn become LN through their methods.

FastLearner Chaotic Anything: the local laws are so strict and the bureaucracy so intense that it nearly impossible to do anything. It's enforced by peer pressure more than anything else.

Sutekh (to Napftor) Which could also be slightly modified if the Kingdom is actually based upon the tenements of Undeath. ie soldiers are Zombies, Skeletons are used as slaves, etc.

Rasyr One thing to always remember in crafting plot hooks, is to be extremely flexible, do not make anything you cannot drop if the players go another direction...

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) Try to revise that one of yours to remove the setting specific info and bring up the alignment issue more, please. (smiles)

Kerrick Tenets, not tenements. (laughs)

Mark_CMG (chuckles)

FastLearner Though I hear the rent is cheap in the tenements of the Undeath.

Mark_CMG (laughs)

FastLearner First month's rent free, even.

Sutekh Good Hook: Party to traveling to a festival put on by the temple of Moon.  Upon arrival they witness a mystical event, the birth of a Silver Dragon.  The dragon though attacks the high priest.. killing him while the Adult mother looks on alarmed.  What does the party do to this noble and supposedly good 'child'?

Napftor Gives him a napkin?

Mark_CMG Is the temple of the moon, itself, good?

Sutekh Yes.  Which is why I used Selune...

Rasyr Why is baby dragon being born in a temple?

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) not everyone knows Selune

Kerrick (laughs)

Rasyr Perhaps it is an evil dragon in disguise, looking for an easy meal for baby?

alsih2o ...and how powerful is a high priest that can't stand up to a baby dragon?

Sutekh (to Rasyr) So it can know humanity and also its a privledge to the Temple.  Silver Dragons after all have a great like for Humanity as a whole.

Rasyr (to Sutekh) That is only if you are playing D&D, but not always true for other systems.

Mark_CMG Perhaps...

FastLearner What if baby dragons have similar looks.  That is, it's hard to tell a baby white from a baby silver, a baby red from a baby brass, or a baby green from a baby bronze.

Rasyr like for humanity? as snacks?

Sutekh So the question remains: Is the child 'bad'?  Did it detect that there was something wrong with the high priest?

Kerrick So that would beg the quesstion of 1) what color is it really, and 2) how did the father mate with the mother?

Sutekh Silver Dragons in D&D like humanity.  They live amongst humans.

Napftor Maybe it wasn't a dragon in the egg?

Kerrick Ah - good point, Sutekh.  Maybe the "priest" wasn't really a preist...

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) Try not to speak in absolutes.  The system is meant to be flexible.

Sutekh (to Napftor) Maybe the egg was switched.  There are many options and hooks available.

CMG_Nichar Demonic Possession of the Wyrmling.

Rasyr Draconic possession?

CMG_Nichar Dragons can be possessed... just really hard to do so.

FastLearner The forces of law and chaos are at war in the kingdom, and the mostly neutrally-aligned PCs want to bring peace.

alsih2o (to Sutekh) In the monster manual it says they live on secluded mountaintops.

Kerrick Again, you're speaking in absolutes, alsih2o.

Rasyr The egg floats, and the top half of its shell does a 360, and then spews pea soup....

Napftor That's so they can get a better look at humanity, alsih2o.

Mark_CMG (laughs)

Kerrick They can live wherever the DM wants them to, really.

Sutekh I think you do need some absolutes in gaming though.

CMG_Nichar (to Rasyr) Lose the Exorcist references, please. (smiles)

FastLearner I love conflicts between two good groups with a good party.

Mark_CMG Kerrick is correct, of course.

Rasyr (to CMG_Nichar) Spoil sport... (chuckles)

Mark_CMG (laughs) Why don't we move on to location specific hooks?  (try to use generic locations, please)

CMG_Nichar That's OK.  At least I caught it! (smiles)

Rasyr OK..... secluded lake........

Sutekh (to Mark_CMG) Try to be specific by being generic? (laughs)

Sutekh (chuckles)

Rasyr Undead monster lurking around lake, which is the resort location for a nearby city.

CMG_Nichar Volcano with a Red Dragon clan.

Mark_CMG (laughs)

Kerrick Desert - an unnatural sandstorm occurs, and when it dies down, a lot of bodies (or maybe ruins) are uncovered...

CMG_Nichar What?

Mark_CMG Shall we say Location based hooks? (smiles)

CMG_Nichar A volcano is a location....

Sutekh Great Whale body (cobbled ribcage lying in a desert) used as lair for tribe of Cannibal Halflings.

CMG_Nichar So is a deep sea trench.

Rasyr Kobolds - ambushed a trade train on a forest road, one survivor found, he says that they must rescue Roscoe. (Roscoe is his familiarand the survivor is a wizard traveling incognito...)

Napftor ...I thought next was Boss Hogg...

Rasyr He passes out and cannot be awakened anytime soon.

CMG_Nichar (laughs)

Rasyr Roscoe, btw, is a pig. (smiles)

Kerrick (laughs)

alsih2o A slowly flooding rift valley.

Rasyr (to alsih2o) With the character caught at the end where there are sheer cliffs...

Napftor Snowy, drifting mountain pass.

FastLearner Desert spires with harpies and... oh, wait, we did that a month ago. (smiles)

alsih2o Or, trying to find a fabled undiscovered resource hidden within.

Mark_CMG (grins)

alsih2o ...with a limited time (laughs), desert spires!

CMG_Nichar Ancient Ruins with a Forgotten Arcane Tome.

Painfully I like the waterfall with the cave behind it (smiles) but I saw on TV a show where they have the worlds tallest waterfall...now THAT was a cool placen I'd definitely put a dragon there.

alsih2o We had a waterfall feeding a lake, but twice the water leaving the lake as was entering thru it...

Kerrick A mountaintop castle ruled over by an insane storm giant.

alsih2o We found an additional underground river.

Sutekh (laughs)

Rasyr Cave with underwater entrace? for band of lizardmen who are attacking nearby town?

Sutekh Those Storm giants are always insane.

Kerrick A bard brings the tale to civilization.  His entire group was slaughtered, but he was let free.

Sutekh ...or Angry

Kerrick (laughs)

Sutekh Or Angry and Insane Although Cloud Giants are always power hungry. (smiles)  Absolutely. (smiles)

Painfully Another one is a valley, think of grand canyon, perpetually filled with a fog, and inhabited by giants.

FastLearner If you had a stomach the size of a VW bug, you'd be power(ful) hungry, too.

Kerrick (laughs)

alsih2o A geyser field.

Napftor The giant is well-fed due to his golden egg-laying goose.

alsih2o ...or a tar pit...

Mark_CMG Are we still doing location based hooks?

Rasyr Oh, here is a good location hook - party beats some monster in small town - brags about it in bar - bard over hears, and makes song, exagerating tale - next town party gets to, hears songs, and hears of "gun-slingers out to try themselves against heroes of the song - a little later party realizes that they ARE the heroes of the song.

Mark_CMG Ah, there we go. (smiles)

Rasyr Can happen in any town...

Kerrick Nice.

Rasyr Rumors are fantastic plot hooks... 

Sutekh There was a cool game we played in where Storm Giants had been imprisoned within a valley. I don't know the exact limitations of the valley but the guy who had put them in put strange rocks around the place.  The energy given off by the storm giants was conducted through the rocks to power some arcane device.

Rasyr Especially if the party does not keep quiet...

Kerrick A good example of the party's actions biting them in the ass.

Rasyr I like to do that a lot to parties... 

FastLearner I saw an awesome show on PBS, Nova I think, with caves that are full of flowing acid, the air full of acidic gas, with actual creatures living inside that not only survive but actually produce the acid themselves.  I think it would make an awesome location.

Rasyr It shows that their actions have an effect on the world, and it teaches them to be careful....

Kerrick Oh, neat.

Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Good one.

Sutekh (to FastLearner) They think once that some sort of life existed in the clouds of venus.  It sounds very similar to what you said.

Mark_CMG (to Sutekh) I like that one.

Napftor A cave home to a hydra is cleaned out by the party.  But weeks later that same area is menaced by hordes of trolls.  Seems the hydra's presence kept the trolls secure in deeper caves.  Whoops!

Kerrick (laughs)

FastLearner These caves, btw, actually exist on Earth right now.  There are tons of them.

Sutekh We, of course, got fried by the Storm Giants but we learned that much before we died.

Mark_CMG Oops! (smiles) OK.  How about if we examine some "item" based plots?  (smiles)

Kerrick Volcanos, yeah.

Sutekh Item based plots? Do we need to look beyond the item that is the Rod of 7 parts? (smiles)

Kerrick A skull that was created to serve as the keystone to a portal....

Mark_CMG One of the things we try to do in these sessions, though, is to present new ideas rather than ones we have played before.

alsih2o Maybe an expensive flute.... (winks)

Napftor A crystal containing a minute portion of a god's essense imbed itself into a commonor.  The man is driven into an insane killing frenzy.  But when the PCs are called upon to stop him, it is an old NPC they know and like.

Sutekh Well, it is new to you guys. (smiles)

Kerrick It's intelligent, and aware, and can grant someone who opens the portal control over creatures summoned through it.

Rasyr Another player bring their own doom plot-hook - after a successful adventure, the players return to a largish town laden with loot, a big-wig crime boss has a city official invite them to formal reception (hard to refuse, and minimal items worn). While at the reception the crime boss cleans them out, and gets the loot out of town (and broken into component parts as well - to avoid scrying) as fast as possible.

alsih2o What about an intelligent device as an item?

Rasyr More like a lack of item plot hook, I guess....

Kerrick (laughs)

Napftor A ring of stones inscribed with strange runes is uncovered.  When the writing is translated and read aloud, the PC's minds are swapped with one another's!

Mark_CMG (to Napftor) That's a nice one.

Napftor Everyone gets to swap character sheets.

Rasyr Character discover that they each have an item (family heirloom, gift from stranger, etc..) that is identical, or matched to items held by other characters

Kerrick Ouch!

alsih2o An amorphous semisentient being that make the smithing of mithral possible is stolen!

Napftor That's good, Rasyr.

Rasyr The plot is then to discover where they actually came from (the items that is), as the item producce odd effects at random when near each other (within 50')

alsih2o Some say to free it from slavery, some say to imprison it.

Kerrick Here's one we used: an intelligent flame tongue sword in Ravenloft.  We find out about it, but the sword has a soul - a gem that must be inserted into the hilt to enact the powers. Dark forces are after the sword to destroy the soul, which was separated from the sword some time ago.  Turned into a huge campaign  - six months real time.

Rasyr Item plot: super demon is shape changed to human, and most of his powers are stored in device while in human form - device is stolen, demon hires character to find device.. and upon its return, he turns into demon again and goes on rampage... can be a huge campaign, if done right...

CMG_Nichar (to Rasyr) Interesting idea.

Rasyr Especially if device is stolen by other evil group, hoping to use it for other evil purpose...

Kerrick The old soul jar from 1E...

Rasyr Like the religious artifact for an evil religion....

Napftor Random PC's are thrown forward an hour in time.  Throughout the adventure, hints are seen by these displaced PC's that allow them to survive encounters.  The last jump reveals an item that the bad guy is using.  From the PC's destroying it, the time jumps have occured.

Rasyr Not quite a sould jar... but more of a power tap, so that the demon can be in human form, as his power would show normally without using it.

Napftor Hmmm...cut mine.  That was not explained well.

Rasyr Another good source of plot hooks are PC talents (special feats.)  For instance, PC has a special feat that allows the use of a lightning bolt x times a day, this character (say a monk) learned it as an ancient martial secret - plot is others who try to coerce PC into sharing secret (after being sworn not to reveal source by superiors.)

Napftor That sort of brings us back to PC background hooks.

Rasyr This follows a premise that I often use - anything good a PC has can often be turned against them story-wise, to advance the storyline in a new direction....

Mark_CMG I think our next session will be more along those lines (plots beyond the hooks.)  How's that sound?

Rasyr It could be from an item, or a talent, etc...  The whole point being that a creative GM can use almost anything as a plot hook for hte PCs, turning it around and twisting it for hours of fun.... (chuckles)

alsih2o Like a plan ...

Kerrick Sounds good.

Rasyr Sounds good.

Napftor OK.

Mark_CMG Perhaps we should wind down by allowing anyone to throw in any Plot hook questions they have and we'll just answer them as we can, eh?

FastLearner Woohoo!

Painfully I think people often ignore the character side of things.

Rasyr (to Painfully) Not me.  I normally depend on the character side as a major source for plots.

Painfully You cant just take a bunch of people and throw them a plot hook.

FastLearner I'm running one now where the town government is led by a corrupt and slightly evil mayor, but... he's actually an unwitting pawn of another, considerably more evil group, and, through incompetence, is effectively protecting the townspeople.  The players, however, are intent on taking out the mayor.  The hook, of course, is protecting the town.

Mark_CMG But let's open the floor up to any questions on hooks that anyone might have. (smiles)

FastLearner But it will make things much worse if they don't uncover the real plot soon.  More of a plot than a hook, I guess.

CMG_Nichar So what else is new?

Mark_CMG No more questions then?

FastLearner I guess not.

Napftor I think the tongues are all wagged out.

alsih2o I am good.

Mark_CMG OK.  Well let's close it out then by me saying thanks to everyone for coming.  Please, try to plan and be back here again.

FastLearner Thanks again, Mark, for hosting these chats.  Very enjoyable.

alsih2o Thanks for hosting, Mark_CMG!

Mark_CMG Two weeks from tonight for the next one!

Napftor Thanks Mark.  This was enjoyable.

Mark_CMG Be sure to check the chat session thread.  Make sure to post so more people will know about it and join us. (smiles)

Kerrick (laughs)

FastLearner I'll be sure to check the transcript for the first hour I missed.

Rasyr Same here...  Where are you going to post the transcript, Mark_CMG?

Mark_CMG And everyone have some great games between now and then! (smiles)

Napftor Goodnite all.

Rasyr I wish!! I am currently in gaming purgatory.

alsih2o http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28055

Painfully It's off to paint some minis for me.  'Night, all!

FastLearner BTW, I really appreciate the way you clean up the chats, mark. They help a ton and make them readable.

alsih2o Have a good night, all.

Mark_CMG Good night everyone. (smiles)

FastLearner Goodnight.

Rasyr Night.


(End of Chat Session  Mon Nov 18 21:56:14 2002)


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## Geist

Another usefull session and more information to use as always ^_^  keep em coming


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## Mark

Geist said:
			
		

> *Another usefull session and more information to use as always ^_^  keep em coming  *




Oh, yes.  Lots of gems in there and the process of brainstorming in the sessions leads to some real eye-openers.  More to come!


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## enrious

Drats, I missed the earlier chats but I'll definately make future ones.


As my campaign just kicked off, I'm always eager to hear ideas.


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## Buddha the DM

must have more....

















chats that is...


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## Buddha the DM

Why is it that people are so hung up on plot hooks?

I mean c'mon what good are plot hooks unless they are done right?


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## Mark

enrious said:
			
		

> *Drats, I missed the earlier chats but I'll definately make future ones.
> 
> As my campaign just kicked off, I'm always eager to hear ideas. *




With that new campaign that you're starting, I'm looking forward to your input.  



			
				Buddha the DM said:
			
		

> *Why is it that people are so hung up on plot hooks?
> 
> I mean c'mon what good are plot hooks unless they are done right? *




It does seem to be a subject on which people vary by degrees.  Between the last chat, and the transcript from the cybercon seminar on the topic, there should be plenty of food for thought in this thread upon which hungry DMs can feast...


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## Buddha the DM

_secretly plots to take over the thread through creative bumps within a post..._


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## Mark

Should be a fun chat session tomorrow.  Especially after the long holiday weekend (USA) and the boards being skiddish.


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## Buddha the DM

Thanks for the reminder of when the chat day & time, Mark.


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## alsih2o

see you folks tonight!!


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## Fast Learner

Starting in about 20 minutes, as of this post!

See y'all there.


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## RangerWickett

What did I miss after I left?


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## Mark

Mon Dec 02 19:00:22 2002
Topic is "Plots Beyond the Hooks: How Much to Prepare?"
(#CMG) Creative Mountain Games - Visit the CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/ 
CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!

(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)

Participating:
alsih2o
Buttercup
Cassander
CMG_Nichar
FastLearner
Mark_CMG
RangerWickett
Wulf_Ratbane


Mark_CMG Let's get started.  Tonight we're discussing "Plots Beyond the Hooks: How Much to Prepare?" (smiles) I think it is safe to say that in 3E you need less prepared, event-wise, but more prepared in detailed encounters and stats, or you wind up having to scramble.

CMG_Nichar (to Mark_CMG) Exactly.

RangerWickett I find when I overprepare, I usually do better, just because I have more ideas in my head.  I still don't come up with badguy stats for grunts, but the more time I spend thinking about an encounter, the cooler it turns out.  I tend to work the opposite way--I prepare a lot story-wise, and just skimp on stats and such.

alsih2o I get heavy into a locale and location and see what arises from it.

FastLearner Same here, but to my detriment.

Wulf_Ratbane I am with RangerWickett on that... so many fast ways to get statblocks, maps, everything you need in a pinch, it's plot that you need to keep on top of.

RangerWickett I just give out XP as I want too, so stats don't matter as much to me.  My general rule is that the main bad guy of an encounter doesn't go down until a) the PCs stop having fun trying to fight him, or b) a PC does something really cool to finish him off.

Mark_CMG I've found that if I do not prepare stats, a lot of the combat can start to seem similar (since I can fall back on the same old feats, skills, spells, etc.)

alsih2o (to RangerWickett) "B" certainly encourages heroics... (smiles)

FastLearner Yeah, same here, Mark.

Cassander(to RangerWickett) You mean you don't dont even bother writing stats down at all and just have em in your head?

FastLearner That or I have lots of pauses while I figure out how to best use the critter/NPC.

Mark_CMG And getting them in a pinch can still mean time away from the table (focus-wise.)

RangerWickett Most of the time, yeah.  A normal mook needs to take 2 hits from most characters to go down, or 1 hit from a fighter type.  Bigger mooks I guestimate how many hp they have, but just wing it.

Mark_CMG Plus, there are so many little cool things that can easily be overlooked without haveing the stats handy from the start.

Wulf_Ratbane That is a good style, RangerWickett, especially for the light fantasy stuff that you have done (that I am familiar with anyways)... comic book/modern.

Cassander(to RangerWickett) Hmm.. Why bother using a system at all?  That's sounding an awful lot like freeform.. why bother with any d20 stuff whatsoever if you wanna go that route?

RangerWickett I actually wrote a poem about that.  

FastLearner (smiles)

Mark_CMG Is it a long poem? (winks)

RangerWickett The players like to think they're playing a game, not taking part in a story.  I usually just work to tell a good story, and use the game as an aid, not a straightjacket.

Wulf_Ratbane (to Cassander) I don't want to speak for RangerWickett but I would say the trick is in hiding that fact from the players... at least, that is how I do it.

RangerWickett (to Mark_CMG) Yes.  But I posted it on the boards a while back.  I can find a link.  (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to RangerWickett) Sure drop it in here so we'll have a link for the transcript. (smiles)

RangerWickett Also, rules let the PCs know what their characters can do, and it helps me think of cool stuff for NPCs to do.  For instance, if the PC is a Drd 5, he knows what he can do, and we don't have to argue as much on.  "Yes I can," "No you can't!" and so on.  But actual stats and stuff . . . eh, I ain't so picky with them.  Only when the players are really into the rules will I go rules lawyer-y on them.  Like for a major duel with an NPC that a PC hates, then yeah, I'd play by the rules to make it fair.  But in a bigger, cinematic fight, I'm more flexible.

Mark_CMG (to RangerWickett) There's a danger there in having two-dimesional NPCs.

Cassander (to Ranger Wickett) Hmm... Never thought of doing it that way in a rules-heavy system like d20. Why d20 over a rules-lite system, though?

RangerWickett D&D _is_ rules-light.  (Poem attachment - it's a .doc - http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=465572 )

Mark_CMG Some of the most interesting encounters can be with NPCs that are "abnormal" so to speak.

Wulf_Ratbane "Why d20?" can be a topic for an entire evening!

alsih2o (grins)

Mark_CMG Do I sense a topic mutiny?

Wulf_Ratbane No, not at all... trying to avoid it actually.

FastLearner Not necessarily.  How about we discuss different parts of preparation?

RangerWickett Well, one thing I really advocate, especially in stuff I write, is that as complex as the rules are, they should be flavor-neutral.  Use the rules for the purpose of stats and stuff, but encourage players and GMs to make up their own flavor.

Mark_CMG Let's get back to where I was going, if I may... (smiles)

RangerWickett Yep, sorry.

FastLearner Of course. (smiles)

Cassander Sorry about that. (smiles) I guess it may have been my fault.

Mark_CMG There's a potential flaw in not preparing, and just "winging it."  As fun as it is to simply say that every second hit will killl a N-Level bad guy, it can get very predictable.  It doesn't allow for the permutations of cross-class skills (as they don't tend to spring into people's minds on the fly.)  It also doesn't make for many surprises in unlikely feat combinations.

Wulf_Ratbane Do you mean as evidenced in the players, or the bad guys?

RangerWickett *nods*  But even without winging it, usually every second hit _will still_ kill that bad guy.  I don't want to sound like I'm starting an argument, but for most fights, you don't need accurate skill points.  And outside fights, stats aren't very important.

Mark_CMG It's unfortunate, but very few people can come up with odd combinations and make they play to their full potential on the fly. (to Wulf_Ratbane) I mean for NPCs  (to RangerWickett) Stats, beyond their use in combat, also account for what is in the mind of the NPC, it is the shorthand of their life experience.

FastLearner I find Spot, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently to be important outside of combat (for NPCs.)

Mark_CMG Stats are even more important outside of combat, unless all of the stats are geared strictly for combat, but that would be a boring game, indeed.

Wulf_Ratbane I think this is a difference in campaign style... if RangerWickett is telling a cinematic game, the emphasis is on the story.  Joe Mook will have exactly enough Spot to spot the PC if he needs to, at the dramatically appropriate moment.

FastLearner I agree with stats as a reflection of the NPCs' backgrounds.

RangerWickett But my players don't usually care about what their stats are, and the players are the focus of the game.  I _do_ make stats for important NPCs, and it definitely does add flavor to them, but when the NPC is really just there for 2 or 3 rounds of combat. . . . it's not worth the effort.

Mark_CMG (to Wulf_Ratbane) Let's call him something other than Joe Mook... (winks)

FastLearner Yes, agreed Wulf_Ratbane.  Definitely differences in style.

Mark_CMG Give him an actual name and he has the potential to become more based on the players' direction.

RangerWickett But he doesn't need a name until the PCs interact with him as a person, as opposed to a target.

Mark_CMG Even in cinematic story telling, no one should be Joe Mook. (smiles) The trouble is... and I cannot emphasize this enough...  If from the start you consider everyone that is not part of your "set" story "Joe Mook", the players do not have the chance to go their own direction.

Cassander (to Mark_CMG) How about kobold #5?  In true cinema, there's almost always plenty of extras and minions who are just there to go down.

Mark_CMG (to Cassander) Why play if you only have the one story to tell?  It is the players who need to be able to determine the route.

Wulf_Ratbane James Bond attacks your average moon base, believe me, there are a lot of Joe Mook name tags... But Mark I agree with that last point... the more freeform the DM is, the more it will actually lead to railroading the PCs, intentionally or not.

Mark_CMG (to Wulf_Ratbane) ...and the players aren't James Bond, unless they choose in the moment to be so.

RangerWickett All minor NPCs are 'minor' because the PCs aren't interacting with them.  If they do start interacting with them, it is none too hard to turn that minor NPC into a more prominent one by coming up with a quick personality.

Mark_CMG And in cinematic story telling there are no "average" moon bases... (winks)

RangerWickett Semantics...  Anyway, I try not to railroad, but I also don't go to more effort than is needed.  I took your advice from an earlier chat to heart, and I make sure to give them different ways to go.

Mark_CMG An NPC never need only be minor.  If the players make a decision that draws an NPC to the foreground, they are no longer "Joe Mook."

Wulf_Ratbane Agreed.

FastLearner But I can see RangerWickett's point that until that point, they are.

RangerWickett 9 different things are always good.  3 by 3.  And the more options there are, the less time I feel I should devote to people who, 95% of the time, will just be window dressing.

Cassander If you put too much stuff for every little minor character, then the play will get bogged down and confused.. the PCs need to be able to tell which guy in the army is the villain.

Mark_CMG I have a little trick I use.

FastLearner (...or can be...)

Mark_CMG I try to always have a fact or two about each NPC.

CMG_Nichar Sound idea there...

Mark_CMG A daughter's name, a favorite color, a broken shoe lace...

Wulf_Ratbane Many a broken shoelace has been the downfall of Joe Mook. (smiles)

FastLearner I can see that in the material you write.  Someone's son just joined the watch, etc.

Mark_CMG (to Cassander) It only gets bogged down if the players do not have options.

Cassander Keep a list of them like a list of names and use it when the PCs need to know it on the fly?

alsih2o Everyone needs one of 2 things...

Mark_CMG (to Cassander) That can help. (smiles)

alsih2o A hard luck story or a secret to their success...

RangerWickett That's fine when you have only a few NPCs.  But it's unreasonable when there are 40 guards at a dark Elf base.  Come up with, say, 3 personality traits, and if the players ask about a particular character, then that character acquires one of those traits.

FastLearner That certainly makes sense to me.

Mark_CMG That broken shoe lace is the difference between Joe Mook "getting hit and dying" or "stumbling foward onto your blade as you have it poised for the kill."

FastLearner (But take good notes, since if you don't the players will remember later and you won't!)

RangerWickett If you're in a bar, though, and the PCs aren't likely to fight, and are more likely to talk, then yes, make up a personality, but then stats are really not important.

Cassander Options are always good.. and probably one of the key things that separates pen and paper rpgs from crpgs, but why create info the PCs will never use? I can see creating a list of ideas for characteristics and such if the PCs start interacting with a stock PC, but why flesh out stock characters if theyre never gonna get to shine?

Mark_CMG (to Cassander) Anything you do not use right away, can always be used later.  I do not believe in "stock" NPCs...

Cassander Which is why I think having a list of possible ideas would be good, rather than just sticking it to a specific character.

RangerWickett You walk into a bar, you see a small crowd of tavern-goers.  The bartender is serving a slender halfling woman on a stool behind the bar, while a few tables over, you notice a pair of skinny, weasely looking guys playing cards while exchanging shots of liquor.  The rest of the room is mostly farmers relaxing from a hard day's work.

Mark_CMG Once you build up a list, applying the list makes things much more interesting and DM-directed.

Wulf_Ratbane That is little consolation to the stock NPC who dies unfulfilled on the PC's backswing...

Mark_CMG (to Wulf_Ratbane) Never allow for remorse when losing an NPC. (winks)

FastLearner "If only I'd had a limp!"

Wulf_Ratbane (laughs)

FastLearner "Or some other identifying mark!"

Mark_CMG Besides, that limp can be used later...

Wulf_Ratbane (laughs)

RangerWickett If the PCs are there to find out about a kidnapping, I know that one of the card players has some info, and I have an idea of who is for when I roleplay him.  He sings to himself and ignores their questions.  But if they decide to talk to a lot of farmers, and ignore the card players, then one of the farmers ends up singing to himself and avoiding their questions.

alsih2o So you decide ahead of time what info your PCs will get?  All the time?

Mark_CMG (to RangerWickett) Adjusting the plot can be tricky, but it is one way to do it.

RangerWickett Vaguely.  I know what's up, and what they'll be able to get, but of course I dont' just spoonfeed them.  They have to work for the info.  

alsih2o Does that leave any room for, say, "Gather information" as a skill?

Wulf_Ratbane But there is a certain amount of predestination there...

RangerWickett I loathe Gather Information as a skill.  It's only good when the information is not very pivotal to the plot.

Mark_CMG They shouldn't "have" to work for the info.  If they come up with a clever plan, or even if serendipity takes them down the right road, sometimes things should come easily

alsih2o Well, to carry out the course...  Do you also determine what will be spotted?  Or heard?

FastLearner For me it depends on the particular plot point. If it's just finding info, I'll be very flexible. If it's rooting out the priest gone bad, for example, the priest has motivation and plans, and his personality won't hop to another NPC.

RangerWickett Like if they want to find out what a bad guy's favorite food is, then Gather Information works for that. But if they want to find out where the hostages are, they have to actively roleplay that.

alsih2o Do you also determine what will be spotted, or what locks will be picked?

Mark_CMG (to RangerWickett) Let me ask...

RangerWickett (to alsih2o) I'll admit that I'm pretty flexible with spot and listen checks and such.  I prefer to have PCs roleplay their searchs, but if they're having a hard time, I'll call for a spot check, and then drop them a clue regardless of the result.

Cassander You can always have the PC make a Gather Information check and if the results good, then you can let that character get the info easier.. by having the NPCs be more likely to give it out, based on the characters' skill at talking and such.

alsih2o Do your players know you do this when creating their characters?

Mark_CMG Wouldn't it serve the plot and game just as well to have the farmer happen to have info that the PCs should talk to the card player, rather than have the farmer become the person that the card player was?

Wulf_Ratbane (to alsih2o) In my experience, although I use much the same system as RangerWickett, I would not. I love the roll of the dice. So I know what the info is and where it is, but sometimes it never works its way to the players. I have had entire plotlines delayed for weeks that way. C'est la guerre.

alsih2o I love the roll for the outcome too.  I like how it helps to determine highlights and hazards.

RangerWickett (to Mark_CMG)  That works too, yes.  But again, it's having to balance mild railroading with letting the players do what they want.  I don't want to say, "Oh, no, you HAVE to talk to the card player," though usually they would.

Wulf_Ratbane Where I would deviate from RangerWickett is that, although I might decide that the farmer has the info, once the die is cast, I won't change on the fly.

Mark_CMG Why would the farmer say thay "have" to talk to the card player?  Maybe the farmer need only mention that the card player is acting oddly?

RangerWickett The way I usually run a game, in the broad sense, is to come up with a couple scenes that I think would be cool for the players.  I usually have the primary scenes I want the most, and secondary ones that work if the PCs don't go that way.

FastLearner I prefer to leave the clues (shifty card players) and let the players do the work, but I do give it away if they're stuck.

RangerWickett Then, I let them roleplay through scenes one by one, and depending on how they act, I decide how best to get them to the next scene.

Wulf_Ratbane Too much railroading there for me. I would much rather you said, depending on how they act, you decide what scene plays next.

RangerWickett That's what I mean.

Mark_CMG Makes sense... (smiles)

alsih2o So, what about deaths?  PC deaths I mean?

Wulf_Ratbane (I am guessing he is lenient)

RangerWickett They know that someone has kidnapped a friend, and they know something is up with a strange storm out to sea.  They heard some rumors about a thieves' guild, so they go to this bar that the guild frequents, and I roleplay from there.  However, if they'd taken some of the other clues and went to a library for research, I had ideas for what happens there too. (As for) PC deaths?  I've had, perhaps, 2 of those in the past 3 years.  One was because it fit the character's hubris (he wanted to play a frenzied berserker, so it's his bad that he charged solo into the guard post of the badguys).  The other was because the player decided that the best way to save the rest of the group was to sacrifice himself.  I usually don't kill off characters for bad rolls.

CMG_Nichar OK.

Mark_CMG See that is why I have found that little preparation usually equals linear plots.

RangerWickett You think that PC death is required for plot flexibility?  (winks)

Wulf_Ratbane Well, yeah.

RangerWickett (grins)  You would, Wulf_Ratbane.

Mark_CMG It requires the DM to bring the players back to the ideas that have been fleshed out, rather than keeping the DM free to improvise.

Wulf_Ratbane Ranks right up at the top of "The Unexpected" list.

RangerWickett No, I come up with nodular adventures.  The nodes that I expect them to go to get the most detail.  But if they decide to go another way, I can do that too.  I don't have raise dead spells in my games, so PC deaths are a much more serious thing.  Like killing off major bad guys, I try to only do that when there's a good narrative reason for doing so.

CMG_Nichar Cool.

Mark_CMG Bottom line is that you do wind up needing to prepare stuff, either at the table or in advance, on the fly or ahead of time.

Wulf_Ratbane But they are serious only IN THEORY; the players know that they won't be felled by a random shot from our hero, Joe Mook.

Mark_CMG The depth of what is prepared can be much richer if it is done in advance.

RangerWickett For me, overpreparing leads to railroading.  I spend so much time thinking of a particular plot line, and so I'd end up subconsciously directing them toward it.

alsih2o Preparation is much more than just plotline.

Mark_CMG (to RangerWickett) Not now that you are conscious of it... (grins)

CMG_Nichar (chuckles)

Wulf_Ratbane I think at both ends of the spectrum, there is railroading.  Too much or too little is gong to lead you down the same path.

Mark_CMG Railroading is a separate issue from being prepared or not, in my opinion.

Wulf_Ratbane The trick is to be prepared just enough to be flexible.

Mark_CMG I'd say further...

RangerWickett (to Wulf_Ratbane)  A 'mook' can take down a PC if he puts himself in the right situation.  Like running into a swarm of them.  But even if the PC is low on hit points, I'd rather have a more major villain come in and deal a killing blow, than letting him fall to a mook.

Wulf_Ratbane I don't agree, I think a lot of DMs... A LOT... will railroad the PCs specifically because they have invested so much prep time along one course.

Mark_CMG The trick is not requiring yourself to use all that you have prepared material, just for the sake of using it.

Wulf_Ratbane Exactly, yes.

RangerWickett Yeah, that is a good point.  It's just so sad, though.  *sniff* My PCs never investigated the tomb I made. (smiles) But like people always say, you can use it elsewhere later.

Mark_CMG That tomb will always be there. (smiles) So one of my own rules is "Be prepared to improvise."

RangerWickett That almost goes without saying.  Except you said it.

Mark_CMG Ah, but you don't.

RangerWickett Eh?

FastLearner Yeah, I have a whole huge haunted ancient university the players never finished exploring.

Mark_CMG When I say that, I mean to have tons of info (or as much as you can) fleshed out so that you can improvise without having to create stuff on the fly unless a "severe" left turn is taken.

RangerWickett Anyway, yes, coming up with lots of stuff in advance is good.  It helps to come up with personalities in advance.  I prefer the big important person, and lots of mooks.  Makes the big guys seem more cool.

Buttercup That's what I try to do.  I"ve got about 200 NPCs in a notebook, sorted by class and level, each w/ a plot hook or some interesting tidbit.  But I need to do more prep of other sorts.

Mark_CMG (to Buttercup) That's a good way to keep things going during a game.

Wulf_Ratbane I have an early flight tomorrow.  Take care all!  And, err, my parting advice is, if you HAVE to railroad the PCs, at least make sure you're railroading them into an early grave.

FastLearner I'll add mine. I like to prepare what I call 3 x 3.  That's 3 different directions (plot lines), and for each I prepare one good fight, one good roleplaying opportunity, and one good puzzle/mystery.  It's a TON of work, unfortunately, but I always have something for everyone, whichever way they end up going.  Of course, I reuse the unused ones whenever I can.

Buttercup That's a great idea.

Mark_CMG I like that

CMG_Nichar Same here.

Buttercup I reuse unused locations, like shops n such.

FastLearner I think it leaves too much prep work on the table, though.

alsih2o Consider it practice. (smiles)

FastLearner Aye. (smiles)

alsih2o (smiles)

Mark_CMG (chuckles)  True...

Buttercup So have you guys found that you can run with less prep as you become more experienced?

alsih2o I find as I get more experienced the more in depth my prep gets.

FastLearner Absolutely. (Though I stopped running games for about 7 years and it took a while to come up to speed.)

Mark_CMG I run with more and more as each year goes by.  In my opinion, the more you've done in advance, the better the game ultimately is.  And, of course, you build up a nice stockpile of material.

Buttercup I sometimes wish I were independently wealthy so I would have enough time to prep to my satisfaction.

Mark_CMG You and me both. (grins)

alsih2o Me, three. (smiles)  I have no boss, and that helps.

Mark_CMG Let's talk about easy ways to prep, eh?

Buttercup So how many plots do you have stored up, on average?

Mark_CMG Can everyone here grab a link or two from their bookmarks for online sources that help you to prepare, please?

CMG_Nichar (chuckles)

Buttercup http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bay/2535/polti.html

CMG_Nichar http://harineldermage.tripod.com/d20/index.html

alsih2o http://www.mediamonitors.net/edna7.html

Buttercup That's a link to '36 dramatic situations'.  I use it for plotting when I'm stuck.

Mark_CMG (to Buttercup) Unless I am running a one shot adventure, I try not to think of things in regard to plots.  Campaign-wise, I try to allow the players to create their own plot from the decisions.  (Not that plots are a bad thing.  But for one-shots, I have a couple of hundred individual plots/situations built up for use.

alsih2o Yessir, stacks o' many...

FastLearner The Big List of RPG Plots: http://www.io.com/~sjohn/plots.htm

Mark_CMG And perhaps each of you could give a little story of a time you used the particular bookmark you've added here, for good or ill? (winks)

FastLearner I've yet to use the Big List of RPG Plots.  It just looks useful.

alsih2o http://grid.let.rug.nl/~welling/maps/blaeu.html I get a lot of ideas from maps, they describe patterns of movement which somehow always get me stirring.

Buttercup I've got that site bookmarked too, Clay.  I love those old maps.

alsih2o The one about basboos, well culturally based short stories always set me off too.

Mark_CMG I think that next DMing chat session we should probably have the first in our series of sessions on "Mapping"

FastLearner Sounds like fun.

Mark_CMG But that may have to be the one after next.  We might have another topic depending on what a certain someone says when I talk to them in the next week... (winks)

alsih2o (grins)

FastLearner The rumored special guest for the last month or so?

Mark_CMG Nope, a different individual that had a new way of starting a campaign that they might be able to share with us. (smiles)

FastLearner Ah, sounds good.

Mark_CMG Can't say more until I chat with them again. (winks)

alsih2o I, personally, am all atwitter... (smiles)

Mark_CMG (chuckles)

Buttercup I have soooo many issues about mapping.  Time, ability, ideas, tools, being the most urgent.

Mark_CMG I'll be adding "gasps" from each of you to the transcript... (winks)

FastLearner For preparing NPCs, I highly recommend John Four's "NPC Essentials".  Great stuff.

alsih2o (to Buttercup) Buy pen nibs, they inspire great lines. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (to Buttercup) I think a lot of people wish they could make better maps.  Does anyone have anything to add about the link they they have dropped on us?

alsih2o (calligraphy type tips)  The variance in line does a lot for mood.

CMG_Nichar My link was my page

Buttercup I know I just got here, but it's time to walk the dog and then go to bed.  So nighty-night.  I'll try to show up on time next time!

Mark_CMG Well, I am thinking that this will just be a shorter chat session, tonight.

alsih2o Peace!

CMG_Nichar Night!

Mark_CMG Thanks all!  Next time will be Dec 16th Monday.  We'll get the topic straightened out for the session by next week'

(End of chat)


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## alsih2o

now would be a real good time to join us!


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## Buddha the DM

please join us!!!


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## Mark

Another good chat with lots of ideas from all of the participants.  I'll post the transcript in the coming week...


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## Maldur

Unfortunately You do this at, for me, unholy hours. So Ill have to do with reading the transcriptions.


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## alsih2o

maldur, when the next topic is decided you can leave any questions you might have here, or email mark or myself and we will make sure they get asked


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## Maldur

Thanks that will be great!

Aren't you in surgery though?
( or is that tomorrow?)


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## alsih2o

tomorrow, and i will probably be here typing one-handed soon after


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## Mark

The topic we will explore Mon, Dec 30th 7pm central US will be *Magic Item Creation: Striking a Balance*

If you do not think that you will be able to attend, please feel free to post questions here.  We will try to address them in the round table discussion during the session.  Attendance is always best, since you may have follow up questions that spring from the answers. 

If you have suggestions for future topics that you would like to see addressed, please also post those in this thread.  Some of the future topics will include *DM Tools: Making Effective Maps*, *DM Tools: Using Counters and Miniatures* and *Running an Online Game via Chat Channels*

I hope to see you there!


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## Buddha the DM

Coolness that is definitely a topic that I need more help on.


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## alsih2o

do something productive before the year ends, spend a night chatting with us!

 magic item goodness in store....


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## Maldur

Ill see if I can show up, but I doubt it (as I have to work tuesday)

Cant think of any questions though?


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## Mark

With any luck will have a nice little announcement to include, and perhaps some *prizes* to give away.  If things work out, be sure to be ready to crunch some numbers, by way of setting market values for magic items.  I think that'll be a good way to have some fun, eh?  Perhaps for some PDF copies, maybe some "Davis Originals"...


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## Buddha the DM

So everyone should show up so they can hear the news that Mark has.


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## Maldur

I would love to show up, but my alarm clock is set on 5:30 if I need to go to work, so I cant really sit through a chat at 2:30.

And I cant sleep before that as my brother Bday is monday (party)

Its a shame Im getting more curious as to what the announcement is


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## alsih2o

happy birthday maldur!

 how decrepit, er, i mean old are you?


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## Maldur

Im 31, but My brother becomes 34 (I think, Im terrible at remembering stuff like that)


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## alsih2o

Maldur said:
			
		

> *Im 31, but My brother becomes 34 (I think, Im terrible at remembering stuff like that) *




 lol, i totally misread your post....


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## alsih2o

i will be there... and i assume you will be there? possible announcements...possible free stuff, definite talk about magic items.


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## Buddha the DM

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *i will be there... and i assume you will be there? possible announcements...possible free stuff, definite talk about magic items. *




What more could you ask for!


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## Maldur

Sleep im afraid 

7 central US, thats about 12 central europian? right?


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## alsih2o

just-a-little-over-an-hour-bump


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## Buddha the DM

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *just-a-little-over-an-hour-bump *




_falls over from alsih2o's bump.....

stands back up and brushes himself off....._

Warn me next time would you.


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## Buddha the DM

Chat's on people. Come on over and talk with us!


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## Maldur

So what was Mark's big announcement?
When can I read the transcription?


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## alsih2o

i don't know that there will be a transcript for tonight, lots of games and some giveaways.
as for the announcement......watch this for further news


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## Maldur

Its unfair. For us people who cant be online a full 24 hours a day. all the fun stuff is done in the depth of night


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## Mark

Mon Dec 16 21:01:48 2002
Topic is "DM Tools: Player Input"
(#Mark_CMG) Creative Mountain Games - Visit the Mark_CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/ 
Mark_CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!

(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)

Participating:
alsih2o
Alustriel
Buttercup
CMG_Nichar
Enrious
Mark_CMG
NiTessine
VagabondDM


Mark_CMG Tonight's topic is "DM Tools: Player Input"  We have a guest to help us tonight, in the form of CMG Team Member Jonathan Brock AKA Enrious.  The reason Enrious is with us on this particular topic is because he's started a new campaign just recently.  His set up, and the way he has chosen to develop it, involves a great deal of player input.  How about if I let Enrious give everyone a basic idea of what he had planned to try and do with his new campaign.

Enrious You mean in a thousand words or less?

Mark_CMG How about a one sentence campaign summary to start? (smiles)  Then let's look at the planned logistics in summary (I.E. level, classes, etc.)  So before we even look at player input, Enrious started with a campaign idea, correct?

Enrious To begin with, I hadn't planned on having my players take much of a creative role in my campaign at first.  However, when the tone and scope of the campaign became apparent to me, I realized that I had 5 very talented and creative people who could work on bits and pieces of the campaign (especially those areas that their characters would know) and leave me with a reduced workload.  I am running a large campaign world (Forgotten Realms) which is taxing on a DM's creativity to begin with.  Then I'm including the armies and races from Warhammer.  That's a lot of conversion work.  Then the campaign focus is a mercenary campaign, which requires a lot of detail to be fun and believable.   Lot of creativity and work required for one poor little DM.  I discovered that by parcelling out bits and pieces of the creative process to my players, I eased my workload while at the same time made my players more involved in the setting.

Mark_CMG Why a mercenary campaign, in particular?  Just a whim?

Enrious I decided on a mercenary campaign for 3 main reasons:  1) I was about to be involved in a GURPS mercenary campaign before I moved, so my juices were flowing for a merc setting.  2) Many people are familiar with the Black Company (although I've never read the books) so I thought I could interest players.  3) I have studied mercenaries throughout history so I thought I could come up with a realistic merc campaign.

Mark_CMG And, to be clear, this is an online campaign, correct?

Enrious Correct.

alsih2o (to Enrious) Have you found the players to be one-sided, or realistic in their building? (...and...) Were the players interested in balance in what they created, or did the lean towards character benefit?

Buttercup Following up on alshi20's question, were the players tempted to metagame?

Enrious My players tended to be very balanced.  It helps that they are experienced gamers, but I think they would have tried to be balanced anyway, because I don't think they're powergamers per se.  I would ask them to come up with something, with some guidelines and retained final veto on it, but haven't really had to alter any major portions.  In some cases, they were assigned the task because they were more knowledgeable than me, so I decided that I wanted to have my players create the mercenary company, with the exception of a few important NPCs.

Mark_CMG What sort of level and meta-game parameters did you decide upon, or were decided upon by the group?

alsih2o "My character is from a town full of charitable alchemists"

Mark_CMG (laughs)

Buttercup (to alsih2o) Yeah, exactly.

alsih2o (smiles)

Mark_CMG Good ole "Potion Pete" (grins)

alsih2o Right, without including the high rate of lead poisoning from the local well.

Mark_CMG (chuckles)

Enrious I'll give an example of one of the tasks.

alsih2o Nice advantage.  Experienced, reasonable players, _please..._ (smiles)

Mark_CMG So they built their characters...and their own "retainers" so to speak?

Enrious Not quite.  I decided to make them a small scout section, to help explain why they didn't adventure often with the main company.

Mark_CMG How many in the scout group? Just the PCs?

Enrious So they form a small detatchment of 5 PCs that is often away from the main group.

Mark_CMG (to Enrious) I see.

Enrious I tasked the players to come up with a company organization, along with names of major NPCs (excluding the commander and his second).   Aside from a few questions, such as "how many cannons can we have?", I left the organization in place. The player thad came up with the organization made names, ranks, and a brief description or quirk about the depicted NPC.

Mark_CMG Ah, so they helped build parts of the campaign, flavor-wise, that they had no real control over once the campaign began, eh? So, back tracking, are there any questions asked that haven't yet been answered?

alsih2o Starting at 1st level?

Enrious I started them at 3rd level.  They did a lot of the ground work in creating the mercenary company, again so they would have a greater attachment and OK. nowledge of it than they perhaps would have if they didn't, but now that it's started they have no real creative control of it.  However, I do have them working on behind the scenes creations.

Mark_CMG Any class or race restrictions?

Enrious I wrote out a list of restrictions and created a webpage for them to frequent.

Buttercup So generally, you think this has been a successful experiment?

Enrious I think it has.  I have an almost fully detailed mercenary group in which the players have vested an interest in.  I think time will show that because of that, they feel a bond with it that their characters would feel.  Currently it's one page; I'm planning on breaking it down into multiple pages in the next few weeks.

Buttercup Would you mind posting the url?

Mark_CMG Why don't you add links to individual pages of the campaign web site, and comment on each one as we go.  We'll also try to give you some questions about each page as we go,. OK?

( http://enrious.dnsalias.com/rsc )

Enrious I could go on and on about the use of electronic tools as a campaign aide, but won't. (smiles) The company is still a work in progress, but that's mostly so I could still have some wiggle room to mould it.

Mark_CMG I think we should revisit that topic later tonight, if we have time, or as a separate chat. (electronic tools/campaign websites)

Enrious Other parts are still in progress and likely will as the campaign goes on.  As an example, one of my players is creating the stats for various "typical" members of the company and a few of the other NPC groups.

Alustriel Did your players get into competition with one another in any way?

Enrious Not that I'm aware of, Alustreil.  For the most part they already knew each other and they were given very different tasks to accomplish even if they were competitive about it.  I did find that often they would communicate with each other so as to make their work mesh with the other sections.

Mark_CMG On the home page you have the rules for the session/game that you are running.

alsih2o (I like your stabilization rule.)

Enrious The metagame rules are ongoing and often reflect discussions with my players.  I was lucky in that 3 of the players were familiar with the Forgotten Realms and 3 familiar with the Warhammer world, so many of my players could explain various campaign elements to each other without me risking revealing too much information. (then to alish2o) That stabalization rule was mentioned in a EN World thread.

Mark_CMG Let's discuss the "Session Rules" please.

Enrious I have one player writing the story hour, based on the game logs.  When I get them, I will be creating a session summary for the players to reference.  I've found that having summaries help focus the players when the game begins.  If you can give them a few minutes to read them or email them just before the game, they can shake off the cobwebs and get back into the story.

alsih2o Interesting party make-up...Fighter, rogue, ranger, wizard, and sorcerer...

CMG_Nichar What?  No cleric or paladin?

Enrious As for the party makeup, I make no influences as to the classes they chose with regard to one another.  The only suggestion I made was to try to see how the character would fit into the lead scout section of a mercenary company.  I also told the players that because it was a mercenary themed campaign, one of them would be ranked above the rest and act as the party leader but before the game began they could decide who that would be.

Mark_CMG Did you allow Warhammer races (even though the players didn't choose them)? (then to VagabondDM) I'm 40.

Enrious Oh yes.  In my campaign, Drow and Dark Elves are two seperate races for example.  The only thing I said if someone was going to be one of the "evil" Warhammer races was to make a believable background that would explaining them being in the party.

CMG_Nichar (chuckles)

Alustriel I like that idea Enrious, considering that the drow I play is of CG alignment.

Mark_CMG (to Enrious) Tell us how you set up sessions, please? (smiles)

Enrious Can you clarify that?

Mark_CMG Each game session that you play, are they individual, ongoing, do they have goals for each, plus long term goals, etc?

Enrious Yes. (smiles)

Mark_CMG (grins) Tell us how it all began, with the first session.  And how many sessions have there been so far?

Enrious I have a massive story arc that should end around levels 10-12, depending on what they do (and assuming the stay with the arc).  So I have some planned events that will further it along, but also a number of "one-shot" ideas. There have been 2 sessions so far, with 1 scheduled each week.   We spent about a month of prep time (for them to create the company and for me to get everything written down. The first session for me as a DM is always a "flavor" session, designed to introduce the players to the campaign.  Thus it served to set the situation and the broad goal of the party/company. NiTessine is one of my players, who's helped me with the campaign setting.

Mark_CMG Excellent.

Enrious The first session also ended with a specific mission being assigned, that if successfully completed could get the company closer to accomplishing the goal.

Alustriel A mini-adventure within the campaign?

alsih2o Did the players have any input on that first mission?

Enrious The second session was the party actually leaving the base camp and working on the mission.

Mark_CMG And what was that mission? (grins)  Perhaps we can get the player's perspective?

NiTessine We're supposed to find out who butchered a bunch of our cavalry on their way to Longsaddle.

Mark_CMG Merely investigatory, or is there the idea that you will avenge them?

Enrious Longsaddle is a town located about 10 days travel from Nesmè, where the mercenary company is currently housed.

NiTessine More investigatory, and we're also supposed to deliver the message they were delivering... I think. It's been so long since the last game...

Mark_CMG How did it go?

Enrious Which is why the game summaries will come in handy.

NiTessine However, if the game works out like games usually work out, we will end up avenging them, anyway.

Mark_CMG (smiles)

NiTessine Haven't finished it yet.  Found one of the corpses, figured out they had been killed with firearms, and slaughtered a bunch of generic Small Humanoids.

Enrious Those were determined to be mammilian kobolds. (For E.G.Gygax)

Mark_CMG (chuckles) Nice touch...

CMG_Nichar Mammalian kobolds?

NiTessine As opposed to the 3E reptilian ones...

Mark_CMG Older DM's should appreciate that.

Enrious Not often you can lend an air of mystery around kobolds.

alsih2o Kobolds used to be doglike...

CMG_Nichar I see.

NiTessine Well... They sounded like kobolds, fought like kobolds, and I got my racial +1 bonus against kobolds...

Mark_CMG (chuckles) That always helps. (smiles)

Enrious I would like to point out that NiTessine is the person responsible for most of the structure of the mercenary company, coming up with the names, descriptions, and composition of the soldiers.

CMG_Nichar OK.. but why mammilian kobolds?

Mark_CMG Ranking also?

CMG_Nichar Sorry if I seem fixed on that...

Enrious In part because I like mammilian kobolds...in part because I had to explain why kobolds were found in the frozen tundra.

CMG_Nichar I see.

Mark_CMG Yup.  You don't see many reptiles in the frozen tundra...that aren't popcicles, eh? (Or white dragons....)

NiTessine Enrious tinkered a bit with the ranks after I sent them... Veander wrote the company's history, I think.

Enrious He came up the structure (who was in charge, but I lowered the actual ranks).  In retrospect, I should have been a little clearer about the rank names.

Enrious To be honest, he wrote way more of the history than I would have. (smiles)

NiTessine I also included an obnoxious Bretonnian, as homage to Monty Python... *Grin*

Mark_CMG It's nice to have that kind of enthusiasm from people.

Enrious The nice thing is that it introduces numerous adventure seeds without any influence from me.

Mark_CMG May I also ask how many players joined the creation process?

Enrious So far, I've made use of 3 players.  I try to ask for help in a rotation to keep everyone involved.

alsih2o Which players go to which assignments?

Enrious Harlock is currently working on stats for the generic NPCs of the mercenary company and a few other NPC groups.

Mark_CMG That can be a lot of work, and not always the most exciting of the jobs.

Enrious (to alsih2o) At first I just detailed what needed to be done and let them figure it out amongst themselves. NiTessine is a crack Warhammer player, so making a mercenary company was something he could do with his eyes closed in the middle of a final exam.

Mark_CMG Just *going* to war isn't enough, eh? (grins)

Enrious My first three players were participants in another campaign, and the other two had expressed an interest at various times.

Mark_CMG Looks like a very strong group of players.

Enrious NiTessine and Harlock had helped me place the strongholds of the various Warhammer entities, for example. Early on I got help from zdanboy, a Mortality.net regular from Poland, and Nitessine when I was first exploring the possibility of putting the Warhammer armies in the 'Realms. Over time, Harlock started helping out with ideas and trying to be an advocate for having the Lizardmen be a "good" race.  Seemed a shame to have him miss the Lizardmen Hord....uh, nevermind. (smiles)

alsih2o Do you plan on the party still being attached to their unit as they gain levels?

Enrious Well, part of the reason I have them as a scout detachment is so that they can be away from the main company without stretching things too much.  Who knows, down the road they may stage a bloody coup and take over the company.

NiTessine (to Enrious) Thanks for the idea, I'll start the preparations immediately...

Enrious I'm sure you will. (smiles)

alsih2o When these guys pack on a few levels they will be more than a match for their compatriots. (smiles)

Alustriel (to Enrious) Do you think the campaign would be going as well as it is, if you hadn't had the players take a hand in the creation?

Enrious No I don't.  I would still likely be struggling with names (because players object to NPC1, NPC2, and so forth), the history wouldn't be nearly detailed, I'd be using generic NPC statblocks, and I don't think the players would be as familiar with *my* mercenary company.  In an odd twist, for example, the player who created the history is running the sergeant of the party, so if there's a time for a motivational speech using the history of the company, there he is.  That wouldn't be possible if he were reading the history I created.

VagabondDM (to Enrious) Allowing the players a hand in creating the world is a good bet...it helped my original AD&D campaign to surive through 6 groups and 18 years.

Alustriel (to Enrious) Do you think that the players are more likely to stick with the campaign, as opposed to trail off an get bored with it...since they've helped develop it?

VagabondDM gives them a reason to hang onto the world beyond the simple....let's play a game attitude most take.

Enrious My last DMing experience was back in college, about 7 years ago.  We did a rotational DM thing where DMing was rotated among the players.  We helped create a very vibrant world, something I think can be best accomplished by the average DM (me) if you get your players involved. (to Alustreil)  Right now it's really too soon to tell.  Hopefully it will help make them less likely to give up the campaign in lieu of watching TV...but that's down the road.

Alustriel Give me gaming any day... (winks)

CMG_Nichar (chuckles)

Enrious Right now I'm simply grateful to be able to look at a list someone else created and find the name of a lieutenant for a specific plot point.

Alustriel (to Enrious) Did your players evolve the mythology or theology any?

Enrious (to Alustreil) Not that much really.  Had someone played a cleric or paladin or other religious character, they would have have license to bend, fold, or mutilate it a bit.

alsih2o What about spindling?

Mark_CMG (laughs)

alsih2o (grins)

Enrious The only real extent is detailing the addition of some Warhammer powers and incorporating some material from The Book of the Righteous.

Alustriel The reason I asked that, Enri, was because when making my cleric for a game I found myself at a loss. The gameworld had no listing of the gods that didn't have a "major bearing" on their ideas. Tough to create the cleric of a sungod, when the world won't even give you that god's name.

Enrious I'm also glad that I can mine the company history for plot points.

Mark_CMG Let's open it up a bit and hear about some other experiences with this, if vagabondDM would please elaborate?

Alustriel (to VagabondDM) In Caermythe, how did the mythology come about? the players?

VagabondDM OK. I think the main reason that I decided to allow the players a hand in creating the campaign world was that in all honesty I was slightly unsure what route I wanted to take. So I had the players help guide the initial flavour of the world they lived in, after that it just became the campaigns trademark. I ran several other games over the years none lasting very long...because I have the attention span of a gnat.  By allowing my players creative control of the campaign I had effectively locked myself into continuing it.

Alustriel ...and you're still continuing with Caermythe, right?

VagabondDM Right....clearing the slate so to speak...may keep some of the older material based on player say so.

Enrious I'm fortunate (or cursed, depending on your viewpoint) from being able to use deity information from published Wizards books, going back to the original FR boxed set.  In addition, I have a fairly extensive game library, so I can pull material from a number of sources. I'm afraid I tend to be a critic rather than a creator, so the more material available, the better for me.

VagabondDM Creating your own isn't to bad... I just reserved final say so on any material..something akin to the president's veto power.

Alustriel (to Enrious) With your setting being the Forgotten Realms, how much did the players flesh out the previously srawny settings? ...and someone else can jump in and ask questions here (laughs))

VagabondDM Ouch....previously scrawny settings? ...and you've never even played in Glorantha...

Alustriel (laughs)

Enrious So far they haven't fleshed out any of the locales or main NPCs.  Often, however they will come up with an idea that I hadn't thought of before.  I'll write it down and they forget about it, so I can claim it as my own. (smiles)

Alustriel I've read some of the Forgotten Realm books, but they lack continuity and throw out conflicting descriptions sometimes.. so it's intriguing how this was handled. (Plus remember I'm wanting to run War of the Lance, and a demon vs Angel game soooo settings are interesting to me)

Enrious As an example, NiTessine asked me how I was going to handle many of the Warhammer dieties, in consideration of the vast number of 'Realms deities.  I was planning on converting them over, when he came up witth the much simpler explanation that the Warhammer dieties were just other names for the existing Realms powers.  That cut a lot of work out. (smiles)

Alustriel (to Enrious) Much like Greek vs Roman mythology?  Same powers and positions, but different names?

Enrious Exactly, Alustreil.

Alustriel It's getting late. (laughs) Even the wee one in my tummy is starting to let me know that...

Mark_CMG Pregnant?

Alustriel (to Mark_CMG) 5 months come this Saturday. (smiles)

Mark_CMG Congrats to both of you. (smiles)

Enrious That was something I hadn't actually considered, but it makes a lot more sense than my idea.

Alustriel Thanks.

alsih2o Congrats!

Alustriel (to Enrious)  Sounds like it makes it simpler for both GM and player and avoids re-writing a lot of information. To be honest, I think that's what I like about VagabondDM's world.

Mark_CMG Well, shall we see if there are any other topical questions and then, perhaps, wrap this up for tonight?

VagabondDM Which one?

Alustriel Caermythe.. it has an almost fully evolved Mythology of it's own... Hrmmmm... I can't think of any more (winks)

VagabondDM Blame my players for that.

Mark_CMG Any other questions or statements about "Player Input" as a DM tool?

alsih2o (to Enrious) I appreciate the info. (smiles)

Alustriel I think it's a useful tool.  I wasn't around for Vaga's Caermythe creation and I've not had a GM otherwise who would do that.

Enrious I found in my own experience playing a divine character, that you often think much more about the church than the DM.  I figure that to be true of most players in general. It's more personal to them than it is to the DM.

Alustriel Which means that I've never really had a *reason* to try and understand why someone acts the way they do.. or why a culture in a place is a certain way

Enrious And that applies no matter the class or race of the character.

Alustriel It's always felt more.. detatched.

VagabondDM Enrious, more than the church...my players went crazy!

Enrious From our college campaign, with the rotating DMs, I remember playing a sheriff type character, with someone else playing a rogue, and someone else playing a cleric.  Our characters founded a city, so we each detailed various aspects of it.  My character created the watch and jail, so I the player wrote those details down.  By the end of the summer we  have a very real city in which we knew every street an alley.  It's an experience.

Mark_CMG (chuckles) Well, thanks to Enrious for having come up with this great topic and information, and thanks to everyone for participating in tonight's chat session. The next session will be two weeks from tonight on Monday the 30th of December.

CMG_Nichar OK. 

alsih2o Then that's it for the year, right?

Alustriel Hmmm... I should be around then. (smiles)

alsih2o (smiles)

Mark_CMG Be sure to watch the DMing Chat Session thread for information on a future topic and make suggestions there.  I think we might look closer at "Mapping" in a not too distant session.

Alustriel (to Mark_CMG) I will make SURE I am here then.

Mark_CMG As that has come up as a good topic idea.

CMG_Nichar Mapping would be good...

Alustriel Mapping would be very good... since I suck at it.  VagabondDM doesnt though. (smiles)

CMG_Nichar Same here...

Mark_CMG I think everyone always feels they can be better at making cool maps...

Enrious I'll just make my players do it. (smiles)

alsih2o (laughs)

CMG_Nichar (laughs)

Mark_CMG (laughs) Good one, Enrious!

alsih2o That's a wrap line if I have ever heard one!

Mark_CMG Well, thanks again, everyone and good night to you all!


(End of Chat Session  Mon Dec 16 21:01:48 2002)


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## RangerWickett

Are you still doing these?  When do they occur?  I enjoy this sort of stuff.


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