# Find the Anime Challenge



## Hussar

Ok, since I cannot give donuts, I have a new reward.

To anyone who can find three examples of anime art from any WOTC Dungeons and Dragons book, I will add the following to my sig for a year:

____________ is the greatest god(dess) of gaming and has proven me to be the biggest schmuck of the internet.  They have defeated my anime challenge and I hereby declare that 3e art is fully inspired by anime.

How's that?

So, to anyone, please, let's see it.  

If, however, after one month, no one can find three examples, then all who take the challenge shall SHUT THE **** UP about anime in 3e art forevermore.

So, are you hard enough?


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## Lonely Tylenol

Hussar said:
			
		

> Ok, since I cannot give donuts, I have a new reward.
> 
> To anyone who can find three examples of anime art from any WOTC Dungeons and Dragons book, I will add the following to my sig for a year:
> 
> ____________ is the greatest god(dess) of gaming and has proven me to be the biggest schmuck of the internet.  They have defeated my anime challenge and I hereby declare that 3e art is fully inspired by anime.
> 
> How's that?
> 
> So, to anyone, please, let's see it.
> 
> If, however, after one month, no one can find three examples, then all who take the challenge shall SHUT THE **** UP about anime in 3e art forevermore.
> 
> So, are you hard enough?



Also, those who declined to take the challenge have forfeited their right to talk about this subject ever again.


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## Scholar & Brutalman

You really need an impartial judge.

(Not taking the challenge since I don't see much anime influence in 3e art, especially compared with american comic book influence.)


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## kiznit

Hussar said:
			
		

> So, are you hard enough?



I dunno. Got any pictures of cursed swords?


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## Hussar

I'm sure that if my judgement is too partial, then I'll be properly taken to task for it.  



			
				kiznit said:
			
		

> I dunno. Got any pictures of cursed swords?




EW EW EW EW EW!


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## Kunimatyu

Let's get this party started!

From the Eberron Campaign Setting:
















From Magic of Incarnum:






From Magic of Eberron:


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## gothmaugCC

Get the party started? I think you just won the contest!


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## Matthan

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Let's get this party started!
> 
> From the Eberron Campaign Setting:




I don't know if anyone would accept me as a judge, but those pictures certainly seem anime inspired to me, especially the first one.



			
				Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> From Magic of Incarnum:




This isn't as clear cut to me.  It strikes me as being more western comic influenced.  It looks like a modern adaptation of the 90's "Image" style. 



			
				Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> From Magic of Eberron:




I think this has some anime or manga influence, but it has enough other elements to make it a unique style.  

Personally, I think the first three images are enough to win the challenge by the original poster's rules though.


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## Exen Trik

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Let's get this party started!
> (snip pics)



Sorry, but all I see for influence is american comic books. :\


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## Lonely Tylenol

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Let's get this party started!
> 
> From the Eberron Campaign Setting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Magic of Incarnum:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Magic of Eberron:



Looks more like American superhero comic book art, to me.


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## Hussar

And our first contestant:



			
				Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Let's get this party started!
> 
> From the Eberron Campaign Setting:




No face faults, body proportions are regular (if comic bookish), colors are pretty standard.  What anime am I supposed to see here?



>




Another Eberron pic, which does have its own aestetic.  We got a giant? some sort of monster in the desert fighting an orc.  (sorry, not up on my Eberron Lore)  Orc is pretty much standard orc.  Again, no face faults, bodies are proportioned, if very muscular.  No different than what I would see in a Franzetta or Vajello picture twenty or thirty years ago.  Ok, not Vajello, no mostly naked chick.  



>




Another Eberron.  Xendrik dark elf if I'm not mistaken.  How is this anime?  Because his hair is kinda spikey?  Still no face faults and body proportions are dead on.  Still not seeing it.



> From Magic of Incarnum:




Dungeonpunk I might give you due to the buckles and spikes.  But anime?  He looks more like Wolverine than Inayusha.



> From Magic of Eberron:




Ok, you're going to have to help me out on this one.  Why would you consider this to be anime inspired?


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## Lonely Tylenol

Matthan said:
			
		

> I don't know if anyone would accept me as a judge, but those pictures certainly seem anime inspired to me, especially the first one.



Replace the gnome with Psylocke.  Fails.



> This isn't as clear cut to me.  It strikes me as being more western comic influenced.  It looks like a modern adaptation of the 90's "Image" style.
> 
> I think this has some anime or manga influence, but it has enough other elements to make it a unique style.
> 
> Personally, I think the first three images are enough to win the challenge by the original poster's rules though.



Describe exactly what about the pictures you think make them "anime" and why we should believe that these features do in fact make them anime.

This contest isn't going to be won without some argument to back up opinions.  You say it's anime, I say it isn't.  _How will we ever decide?_


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## WayneLigon

Hmm. Should we talk about, then, what is and is not 'anime-inspired'? There is no _direct _ anime art in any WoTC book I have ever seen, but are we talking 'influence' here or direct 'swipes'? If it's 'influence', I think you could put down almost any three 'sword wider than my thigh' pic and make a pretty good claim that that is directly inspired by japanese aesthetics; anime and Japanese video games feed off each other back and forth pretty much constantly. So, perhaps not, but if so, then what counts? Thin-line art style? Spikey hair? CLAMP-like thin males? Genre-melding, or incongrous/anachronistic elements (IE, doe a cleric with big glasses count?)

Is it in action poses? The way they hold their hips? Literal 'big eyes small mouth'?


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## Hussar

Note, I've got no problems with comic book art.  Hey, I'll agree with anyone who says that 3e is inspired by comics.  But, anime art has some pretty specific connotations - face faults, strange proportions, overly feminine male figures, just to name a few.  None of the above images have any of those qualities.

Or is my definition of anime too far off?


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## Rechan

I think the best way to approach solving the all-ready-started "That's anime" "No it's not!" subjective argument is for those who intend to judge (including the OP) to provide pictures that _they_ consider "Anime art".

Judges, go scower the net and slap down something that you consider "Anime Style". This way, we have a baseline to operate with.


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## Lonely Tylenol

Hussar said:
			
		

> And our first contestant:
> 
> No face faults, body proportions are regular (if comic bookish), colors are pretty standard.  What anime am I supposed to see here?



Didn't you hear?  Comic books are anime now.



> Another Eberron.  Xendrik dark elf if I'm not mistaken.  How is this anime?  Because his hair is kinda spikey?  Still no face faults and body proportions are dead on.  Still not seeing it.



Kyle Hunter's Downer has hair that's kind of spikey too.  Guess he's anime.



> Dungeonpunk I might give you due to the buckles and spikes.  But anime?  He looks more like Wolverine than Inayusha.



Maybe, but don't forget, powers = anime.  He obviously has powers.  Therefore, anime.


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## Xyl

In case some of you are confused, this is anime (well, most of it):






This is not anime:






Thank you.


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## Monkey Boy

Edit - ok I see what anime is now. Great, DnD art is not the same as the anime art you posted. You win.


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## Hussar

Well, the Wiki entry on Anime has some pretty darn good examples.  That should suffice for a start I think.


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## Lonely Tylenol

Hussar said:
			
		

> Note, I've got no problems with comic book art.  Hey, I'll agree with anyone who says that 3e is inspired by comics.  But, anime art has some pretty specific connotations - face faults, strange proportions, overly feminine male figures, just to name a few.  None of the above images have any of those qualities.
> 
> Or is my definition of anime too far off?



I think your definition of anime style is probably pretty narrow, but I also don't think that any of these pictures even touch my own definitions.  There's a pretty clear line between anime and other styles, even within japanese visual arts.  Look at the difference between Samurai Champloo and Lone Wolf and Cub (I'm referring here to the trade paperbacks).  The latter doesn't count as "anime" for me.  It's a completely different style of art despite being set in a similar historical period and also focusing on the lives of samurai.  Likewise, anime and American comic books are doing two different things, only there isn't even the assumed shared cultural background between them.

If someone wants to say that fantasy art is anime-influenced, they're going to have to work pretty hard to explain how what they're describing doesn't fit in as well or better with American comic book aesthetics.


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## Hussar

Monkey Boy - Looking through google at images from Record of Lodoss War, I would ask that you provide specific examples of comparison if you would because I'm not seeing it.  

Here is a pic showing the main characters.  

Again, no face faults in the original pic pretty much nixes the whole anime angle right off the bat.  Also, the body proportions are accurate(ish).  Why do you see this as an example of anime?


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## Rechan

If I was a smartass, I'd post a picture of Warforged, and then a picture of the character from Full Metal Alchemist.

What's a "face fault"?


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## Matthan

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Replace the gnome with Psylocke.  Fails.
> 
> 
> Describe exactly what about the pictures you think make them "anime" and why we should believe that these features do in fact make them anime.
> 
> This contest isn't going to be won without some argument to back up opinions.  You say it's anime, I say it isn't.  _How will we ever decide?_




Well, I'm reading anime as including manga.  Now I'm not an expert, and honestly, I don't care about art direction in 3E or 4E for that matter as long as I enjoy it and I have pretty broad tastes.  My observation on the first three images isn't that western superhero comics haven't done similar images, but that the origins of some of those tropes are manga specifically the first image with the overwhelmingly large and spiky energy attack.  That strikes me as more manga than western superhero.

As for why we should believe this or that or why this even matters, I'm not sure I can give a satisfying answer.  Art has become so cross pollenated with influences particularly in the west, that artists rarely fall into one neat category anymore.  I believe that those pieces have been clearly influenced through manga from panel breaks to layouts to figure work and poses, but they don't rise above influence.  In every case the artist has his own style at work.  So I guess the question is what constitutes "anime art"?  Is influence enough or does it have to be done by an artist who has actually worked in anime or manga?


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## Branduil

None of this art can be anime because none of it is animated.


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## Xyl

Rechan said:
			
		

> If I was a smartass, I'd post a picture of Warforged, and then a picture of the character from Full Metal Alchemist.
> 
> What's a "face fault"?




Here, I'll do it for you.










Of course, there are only so many ways to draw what's essentially a metal man, and mechanical objects in anime tend to be less stylized than humans. Still, there are quite noticable differences in texture and detail.


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## Lonely Tylenol

Hussar said:
			
		

> Monkey Boy - Looking through google at images from Record of Lodoss War, I would ask that you provide specific examples of comparison if you would because I'm not seeing it.
> 
> Here is a pic showing the main characters.
> 
> Again, no face faults in the original pic pretty much nixes the whole anime angle right off the bat.  Also, the body proportions are accurate(ish).  Why do you see this as an example of anime?



Well, to be fair, it's because it's anime.  However, it's anime that's attempting to look like Western fantasy art.  It's specifically trying to do Dungeons and Dragons.  It still manages to come off looking more like Bubblegum Crisis, Robotech, or any of the older generation of anime series than it does any modern D&D art.  The flip-side of that is the modern D&D art looks more like Western comic book art than it looks like Record of Lodoss War.  So, yes, Record of Lodoss War is anime, and derivitive of the D&D aesthetic (filtered through RPG video game art, btw).  No, D&D is not derivative of it.


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## Exen Trik

Hussar said:
			
		

> Or is my definition of anime too far off?



Well, it's not an undeserved definition, but there's far more to the genre than that, if you can even call anime a genre.

The facial proportions are a major thing, although the degree of it varies widely. You have the typically seen cartoonish style of things like dragonball or inuyasha, the sillier or even super deformed styles with more childish or humorous things, and the almost but not quite realistic styles of serious or dramatic works.

I've thought on this a while, and I figure part of the reason for the style is it kind of plays on instinct. The same way the big eyed cherubic face (either with anime style or traditional cartoon) resembles the appearance of children and plays on paternal instincts, the angled eyes and pointed chins of anime resembles a face seen from very close, and plays on an intimacy instinct.

Theres certainly a lot more to it than that though, but this point is something I think a lot of people miss. I think the ability to enjoy having those instinctive buttons pushed has everything to do with strong positive or negative opinions on the style and genre.


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## Glyfair

Exen Trik said:
			
		

> Sorry, but all I see for influence is american comic books. :\




I 100% agree with the first 3.  They seem like American comic books to me.


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## Lonely Tylenol

Xyl said:
			
		

> Here, I'll do it for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, there are only so many ways to draw what's essentially a metal man, and mechanical objects in anime tend to be less stylized than humans. Still, there are quite noticable differences in texture and detail.



Well, the texture is completely different, and the level of detail on the warforged is much higher than on the other one.  They also have significantly different designs on their outer shells, which is worth noting since they're both basically just humanoid things in armour plating.  The only real similarities between the two are the glowy eyes and hinged jaws, aside from the "I'm a robot" thing, which as you point out is pretty generic.


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## Kunimatyu

Hussar said:
			
		

> And our first contestant:
> 
> 
> 
> No face faults, body proportions are regular (if comic bookish), colors are pretty standard.  What anime am I supposed to see here?
> 
> 
> 
> Another Eberron pic, which does have its own aestetic.  We got a giant? some sort of monster in the desert fighting an orc.  (sorry, not up on my Eberron Lore)  Orc is pretty much standard orc.  Again, no face faults, bodies are proportioned, if very muscular.  No different than what I would see in a Franzetta or Vajello picture twenty or thirty years ago.  Ok, not Vajello, no mostly naked chick.
> 
> 
> 
> Another Eberron.  Xendrik dark elf if I'm not mistaken.  How is this anime?  Because his hair is kinda spikey?  Still no face faults and body proportions are dead on.  Still not seeing it.
> 
> 
> 
> Dungeonpunk I might give you due to the buckles and spikes.  But anime?  He looks more like Wolverine than Inayusha.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, you're going to have to help me out on this one.  Why would you consider this to be anime inspired?




Whenever I see a figure strike an action pose - preferably with some pattern of light behind them instead of a picture - anime comes to mind. Ditto with shots that feature a very "before-and-after" combat, where you have the poses of the combatants going into combat, and then one of them dies in the next panel, with no actual combat being shown.

However, I honestly don't much care one way or the other, because I personally don't think anime is a major D&D art influence. It IS an influence, just like it's influencing Western comic books right now (Runaways comes to mind), but I'd hardly call it a major one...except in the case of certain pieces of Eberron artwork.


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## Lonely Tylenol

Matthan said:
			
		

> Well, I'm reading anime as including manga.  Now I'm not an expert, and honestly, I don't care about art direction in 3E or 4E for that matter as long as I enjoy it and I have pretty broad tastes.  My observation on the first three images isn't that western superhero comics haven't done similar images, but that the origins of some of those tropes are manga specifically the first image with the overwhelmingly large and spiky energy attack.  That strikes me as more manga than western superhero.



If I recall correctly, Spawn was pretty fond of spiky things.




> As for why we should believe this or that or why this even matters, I'm not sure I can give a satisfying answer.  Art has become so cross pollenated with influences particularly in the west, that artists rarely fall into one neat category anymore.  I believe that those pieces have been clearly influenced through manga from panel breaks to layouts to figure work and poses, but they don't rise above influence.  In every case the artist has his own style at work.  So I guess the question is what constitutes "anime art"?  Is influence enough or does it have to be done by an artist who has actually worked in anime or manga?



You know, I'd really love it if D&D art looked more like the work of Shinichiro Watanabe, Hayao Miyazaki, or a few other anime and manga artists and directors.  But it doesn't.  And because it doesn't, it bothers me to hear people saying that it looks like anime.  If it looked like anime, that would be a pretty good thing.  Of course, I also like the art from Eberron that looks like the work of Mike Mignola, which is a Western comic book style unlike the typical superhero style.  I'd love to see more in that vein as well.

But all I ever see is the same weirdo dungeonpunk thing that looks nothing like anime and only passingly like American comic book art.  And every time it starts to look even vaguely like either, people cry bloody murder and they claw back the art style to toe the line.

FWIW, the series called Avatar that runs on Nickelodeon is anime.  It is made by Americans.  So, no, you don't have to be Japanese or have worked in the Japanese film or comic book industry to produce anime-style art.  You just have to produce anime-style art, and WotC doesn't produce anime-style art.


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## HeinorNY

Xyl said:
			
		

> In case some of you are confused, this is anime (well, most of it):



MY EYES!!!! THEY ARE MELTING!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHSSSSHHHHHHHNNNNSHHHHHHHHBBBBBLLUURRRGGCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHH......................


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## Rechan

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> FWIW, the series called Avatar that runs on Nickelodeon is anime.  It is made by Americans.  So, no, you don't have to be Japanese or have worked in the Japanese film or comic book industry to produce anime-style art.  You just have to produce anime-style art, and WotC doesn't produce anime-style art.



As was Samurai Jack, which was produced by Americans.


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## Mad Mac

The collage posted earlier is a good start. It would probably help to post fantasy anime pics though, just so we're roughly matching genres. Let me see if I can dig anything up...

Lodoss War (old but classic)

http://the.animearchive.org/lodoss/1/deidlet.jpg
http://the.animearchive.org/lodoss/5/lodoss10b.jpg
http://the.animearchive.org/lodoss/5/lodoss09b.jpg
http://the.animearchive.org/lodoss/1/av0292a.jpg

Rune Soldier (same world as Lodoss, but newer and more comedic)
http://animepa.csusm.edu/galleries/K-L/Louie/lg/louieall.jpg
http://animepa.csusm.edu/galleries/K-L/Louie/lg/battle300.jpg
http://animepa.csusm.edu/galleries/K-L/Louie/lg/louieheal300.jpg

Slayers
http://slayers.vstars.net/images3/lina018.jpg
http://slayers.vstars.net/images3/lina019.jpg
http://slayers.vstars.net/images3/gourry012.jpg
http://slayers.vstars.net/images3/amelia018.jpg
http://slayers.vstars.net/images3/zelgadis036.jpg

Scrapped Princess
http://www.myrrhlynn.net/raquel/scan1.jpg
http://www.myrrhlynn.net/raquel/screen4.jpg
http://www.myrrhlynn.net/raquel/screen6.jpg

Not the best pics, but I wasn't being picky. Hopefully it's enough to get a good idea of what actual anime fantasy art looks like though, as opposed to American Comic book art.


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## Xyl

ainatan said:
			
		

> MY EYES!!!! THEY ARE MELTING!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHSSSSHHHHHHHNNNNSHHHHHHHHBBBBBLLUURRRGGCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHH......................




My job here is done.


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## Hussar

Rechan said:
			
		

> As was Samurai Jack, which was produced by Americans.




Hey, Genndy Tartarofski (or however you spell his name) is a god.  I love his stuff.  The Clone Wars bit he did was fan-bloody-tastic.

Then again, he did Powerpuff Girls as well.


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## Matthan

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, Spawn was pretty fond of spiky things.




And just to be difficult, manga and anime were around before Spawn and in sufficient quantity to inspire his work.  I don't know if McFarlane or Capullo ever admitted to anime/manga influence.  I know Erik Larsen has talked about it before.  

On reflection though, I think that I'm the only one considering manga in the equation here.  There are many manga which have very detailed linework and character designs.  Anime (and animation) by its nature and budget has to simplify designs to work within its medium.  Static images can have more detail because you don't have to redraw the same thing hundreds of times to provide movement.  

Abandoning that line of thought though, I think I have a way to solve the debate.  Someone should track down the artist's who made the work and ask them to describe it.  They'll probably wisely avoid it, but if anyone knows their influences, it's the artists right?


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## Hussar

Rechan said:
			
		

> If I was a smartass, I'd post a picture of Warforged, and then a picture of the character from Full Metal Alchemist.
> 
> What's a "face fault"?




This question got lost in the scrum.

A face fault is when you draw a face with very large eyes and almost no mouth or nose.  Very prominent in many anime or manga pictures.  In other words, its that "anime face" that you see in shows like Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball Z.  Or many (but not all) anime.


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## Kunimatyu

Hussar said:
			
		

> Then again, he did Powerpuff Girls as well.




I *hope* you won't sully this thread by dissing on the Powerpuff Girls. Damn fine show.


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## Woas

Thats all I got. Not that I really even believe in the anime-influence hype. I just wanna win the prize!


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## Xyl

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> I *hope* you won't sully this thread by dissing on the Powerpuff Girls. Damn fine show.



Ok, my job isn't _quite_ done.

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[/sblock]
Now it's done.


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## Sound of Azure

Hussar said:
			
		

> Hey, Genndy Tartarofski (or however you spell his name) is a god.  I love his stuff.  The Clone Wars bit he did was fan-bloody-tastic.
> 
> Then again, he did Powerpuff Girls as well.




Have to agree there. PPG is very popular in this country, especially in Townsville.


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## Lackhand

Hussar: A face fault is also used to describe any of the props that anime/manga use to show emotion: big teardrops, angry-throbbing-vein-Xs, and so forth.

So it's not just the style of drawing the face, but the style of drawing a face more abstractly than usual, with a stand-in to represent emotions.


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## Lonely Tylenol

Hussar said:
			
		

> This question got lost in the scrum.
> 
> A face fault is when you draw a face with very large eyes and almost no mouth or nose.  Very prominent in many anime or manga pictures.  In other words, its that "anime face" that you see in shows like Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball Z.  Or many (but not all) anime.



Actually, it's closer in meaning to what American animators mean by a "wild take."  It's an overblown expression, usually of surprise or shock.  Anime uses a different set of these expressions than American cartoons do, and they're mainly found in comedy anime, just as wild takes are usually found in comedy animation.

Where Wile E Coyote's eyes might jump out of his head while his jaw literally hits the floor, an anime character's eyes might turn into black holes while a lightning bolt flashes behind his head.  Different set of tools for the same job.


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## Lackhand

Anyone notice how nearly all the art (but not actually all, just nearly) is from Eberron? Weird, man, almost like it might have been part of that setting's art bible.

It might have been, really


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## Branduil

Woas said:
			
		

>




This is the only one of those images I would consider to have something like a Japanese aesthetic, with its emphasis on lines and large flat swathes of color.

Of course it's still not anime since it isn't animated.


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## Hairfoot

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> are we talking 'influence' here or direct 'swipes'? If it's 'influence', I think you could put down almost any three 'sword wider than my thigh' pics and make a pretty good claim that that is directly inspired by japanese aesthetics



Exactly.  The anime _theme _ has always been the issue, not the art.

While I'm not an aficionado, I enjoy anime and manga when I encounter it, but I don't want a D&D standard that includes hugely oversized weapons and ninja furries leaping between mountaintops.


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## Mad Mac

> This is the only one of those images I would consider to have something like a Japanese aesthetic, with its emphasis on lines and large flat swathes of color.
> 
> Of course it's still not anime since it isn't animated.




 That is one ugly pic. It still isn't very anime-ish though. The colors I can see, but the details and armor are very different. 

  Honestly, most fantasy characters in anime don't even have armor. If they do wear armor, than it's almost always this unobtrusive chest protector thing with pauldrons that makes me think of football gear. Also, just about everyone has to have a cape.



> While I'm not an aficionado, I enjoy anime and manga when I encounter it, but I don't want a D&D standard that includes hugely oversized weapons and ninja furries leaping between mountaintops.




I can understand that. These elements are hardly standard though, even in anime. On any given show, you might see _one guy_ who uses an oversized weapon, and I can't even think of any "furry" characters who aren't villians, off-hand. It's not like there's any anime show out there that has a bunch of dog ninjas leaping mountains and dueling with oversized battleaxes. 

Having a big weapon is usually just a gimick to have some mook look tough for 5 minutes before he gets thrashed. It's the girly-looking guys you have to look out for. I haven't seen anyone break out their big sword pics for the contest yet, either.


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## Xyl

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> It's not like there's any anime show out there that has a bunch of dog ninjas leaping mountains and dueling with oversized battleaxes.




Except, you know, Inu-Yasha.

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## TwinBahamut

Hairfoot said:
			
		

> ...and ninja furries leaping between mountaintops.



The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are an American invention, not anime.

Honestly, I see far more influence from american comics in the various images shown, rather than any kind of anime influence. Any anime influence that exists seems to be already filtered through the lens of american comics, so it isn't really an anime influence anymore.

So, I claim that there isn't a distinct anime influence in any of the art shown. Which is a shame, really, since I think D&D could stand to borrow some of the good points of anime/manga character design and the like.


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## Mad Mac

> Except, you know, Inu-Yasha.




 Heh. Close. Inu-yasha is more Wolverine than ninja, though. It's been a while since I've watched that show, but his preferred fighting style always seemed to be to get his doggy behind stomped into the ground until his opponent was too tired to keep impaling him, and then bouncing back for the big finish. 

  Most of his enemies are demons though, so no oversized sword dueling. There is that girl with the huge boomerang ...but I love that weapon.


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## Branduil

I would hope that most artists would not borrow from something so mediocre as Inuyasha.


----------



## Mad Mac

> I would hope that most artists would not borrow from something so mediocre as Inuyasha.




  Can't imagine it happening to any meaningful degree. Rumiko Takahashi has a distinct style, but most of her characters look the same. I don't see anyone ripping off her designs.


----------



## Paraxis

If you want to see an RPG with alot of Anime style art work check this out.

http://www.animarpg.com/

The wallpapers and the links to the artist web pages are amazing.
I look forward to this game about as much as 4E.


----------



## Rechan

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Actually, it's closer in meaning to what American animators mean by a "wild take."  It's an overblown expression, usually of surprise or shock.  Anime uses a different set of these expressions than American cartoons do, and *they're mainly found in comedy anime, just as wild takes are usually found in comedy animation.*



Emphasis mine.

I just want to toss this out there because I think this is wrong.

It feels like practically ALL anime that is not _very very serious_ has these. 

I can only think of four anime I've seen before that does not have these:

Cowboy Bebop.
Helsing.
Berzerk. 
Ghost in the Shell.

I make this point because I _hate_ the face faults. I always find them when I sit down to something I think is going to be some nice story/fight show. The only cartoon I actually gave a pass on this was Teen Titans.


----------



## Rechan

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> Can't imagine it happening to any meaningful degree. Rumiko Takahashi has a distinct style, but most of her characters look the same. I don't see anyone ripping off her designs.



As long as the artists don't rip off her writing.


----------



## Rechan

Hairfoot said:
			
		

> While I'm not an aficionado, I enjoy anime and manga when I encounter it, but I don't want a D&D standard that includes hugely oversized weapons



Y'mean like Greatswords?


> Having a big weapon is usually just a gimick to have some mook look tough for 5 minutes before he gets thrashed. It's the girly-looking guys you have to look out for. I haven't seen anyone break out their big sword pics for the contest yet, either.



The best example of "dude wielding huge sword" I can think of is Berzerk, or what pictures I've seen of Bleach. 

Berzerk, I think, is the quintessential "I't sa greatsword!" though.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

Rechan said:
			
		

> Emphasis mine.
> 
> I just want to toss this out there because I think this is wrong.
> 
> It feels like practically ALL anime that is not _very very serious_ has these.
> 
> I can only think of four anime I've seen before that does not have these:
> 
> Cowboy Bebop.
> Helsing.
> Berzerk.
> Ghost in the Shell.
> 
> I make this point because I _hate_ the face faults. I always find them when I sit down to something I think is going to be some nice story/fight show. The only cartoon I actually gave a pass on this was Teen Titans.




Their are alot of anime without face faults. The ones you have listed are just the more well known ones.


----------



## Branduil

Paraxis said:
			
		

> If you want to see an RPG with alot of Anime style art work check this out.
> 
> http://www.animarpg.com/
> 
> The wallpapers and the links to the artist web pages are amazing.
> I look forward to this game about as much as 4E.




Well, they hired actual Japanese artists, so naturally that art is actually manga-style.


----------



## frankthedm




----------



## Simia Saturnalia

A lot of that Eberron art reminds me of _Battle Chasers_ more than it does any anime I can think of.


----------



## babomb

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> Having a big weapon is usually just a gimick to have some mook look tough for 5 minutes before he gets thrashed. It's the girly-looking guys you have to look out for. I haven't seen anyone break out their big sword pics for the contest yet, either.




Dude, big sword guys are often main characters. E.g., Bleach, Berserk, Final Fantasy VII.



			
				Rechan said:
			
		

> I just want to toss this out there because I think this is wrong.
> 
> It feels like practically ALL anime that is not _very very serious_ has these.
> 
> I can only think of four anime I've seen before that does not have these:
> 
> Cowboy Bebop.
> Helsing.
> Berzerk.
> Ghost in the Shell.
> 
> I make this point because I _hate_ the face faults. I always find them when I sit down to something I think is going to be some nice story/fight show. The only cartoon I actually gave a pass on this was Teen Titans.




To be frank, you just haven't seen the right anime. I'll grant that it's in a lot of anime, probably even the majority, but not nearly as common as you say. Plus, a number of anime that use them don't use them than the ridiculous extent that other anime does. They don't bother me when not over-done. 

Here are a few examples off the top of my head that either don't use them (or use them so little I don't remember):
Studio Ghibli movies
Lupin the Third
Monster
Gundam
Voltron
Astroboy
Gigantor
Kimba the White Lion
Lain
Future Boy Conan

Also, I'd like to point out that the big eye trait originally comes from *Western* animation, such as Bambi. They were co-opted by Osamu Tezuka (he of Astroboy fame), from whom they were widely copied by other mangaka.



			
				Mad Mac said:
			
		

> Heh. Close. Inu-yasha is more Wolverine than ninja, though.




Much as I hate to admit I know this much about InuYasha, there is also a pack of Demon wolf-people in it, not to mention cats, foxes, and probably other animals I've (mercifully) forgotten.


----------



## Klaus

Woas said:
			
		

> Thats all I got. Not that I really even believe in the anime-influence hype. I just wanna win the prize!




I think Woas is right. The overly large shoulderpads and the general style of Kalman Andrazofsky's picture is very mangaesque. Remember, not all manga/anime is Inuyasha or DBZ. You also have more realistic ones, like Crying Freeman and Akira.


----------



## Danzauker

Anime influence in D&D art?

Well, crap, go back to the Spelljammer Monstrous Supplement in 2e.

The "Bionoid" or "Bioman" "or  whatever it was, is 100% ripped off "The Guyver", name, art and race concept...


----------



## heirodule

Go look at the Confessions of a Part-time Sorceress book. LOADS Of anime-style art. 

A WOTC book, about D&D.

I wins


----------



## Doug McCrae

This thread owns. It absolutely rocks. Great to see some examples of actual anime presented alongside D&D art. 5/5.

And I learned what a 'face fault' is.


----------



## Mad Mac

> Dude, big sword guys are often main characters. E.g., Bleach, Berserk, Final Fantasy VII.




  Quite true. They're still usually the only ones with big swords, though.


----------



## D.Shaffer

babomb said:
			
		

> To be frank, you just haven't seen the right anime.
> 
> I'll grant that it's in a lot of anime, probably even the majority, but not nearly as common as you say. Plus, a number of anime that use them don't use them than the ridiculous extent that other anime does. They don't bother me when not over-done.
> 
> Astroboy



...Astroboy is currently playing on Adult Swim.  It is FILLED with wild takes and face faults. It's probably the best example I can think of to show the American influence on early anime. it IS more American style wild take then face fault, but it's not the best example I'd pick as an example of 'no face faults'


----------



## Anti-Sean

Easiest. Contest. Evar.

The anime influence in 3.x has been there since the very beginning; they've even plastered it all over the book covers, like this one:






And it continued throughout the edition, up to and including these later 3.5 releases:











Frankly, I don't care for it one bit. As far as Complete Scoundrel goes, I still wish they should have gone with their original idea:






So, what do I win?


----------



## Wormwood

Anti-Sean said:
			
		

> So, what do I win?




The thread.


----------



## WayneLigon

Anime or Not?


----------



## RangerWickett

And when in doubt, Wikipedia:

Face Fault

I've watched a lot of anime. I've played BESM. D&D art does not have an anime aesthetic in my eyes. It has its own aesthetic, which like everything else in the world is influenced by things enjoyed by its creators.

True, 3e didn't have much art like this:






This style of art is evocative. It can make you wonder, "What's going on here? This looks like a great story."

Compare to art like this:






This style makes you think, "Damn, that looks cool. I want my character to be cool like that."

I think perhaps the aesthetic change is that 3e caters more to what the players want than what the GM wants. Or perhaps it's just a change from an adventure game to an action-combat game. Perhaps the people complaining are unhappy because the style of gameplay has changed, which naturally would lead to a change in the art.

Consider what an 'action scene' in the 2nd edition style looked like:






To what action is today:






Different, sure. They call out to different styles of play, different intensities. Maybe it's just that some gamers don't like video games and prefer to spend an hour and a half resolving 6 seconds worth of combat. Or maybe modern gamers are impatient, looking more for quick thrills than involving, epic tales.

Either way, I would like to see a slight change in how D&D presented itself in the core 4e books. D&D certainly is not becoming this:






But I would love it if it had a few more pictures like this:


----------



## RangerWickett

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Anime or Not?




Paizo, not WotC, but that's certainly the closest I've seen in this thread. Still, it's more like someone mixed two styles together, instead of just drawing anime.


----------



## GreatLemur

Rechan said:
			
		

> It feels like practically ALL anime that is not _very very serious_ has these.
> 
> I can only think of four anime I've seen before that does not have these:
> 
> Cowboy Bebop.
> Helsing.
> Berzerk.
> Ghost in the Shell.
> 
> I make this point because I _hate_ the face faults. I always find them when I sit down to something I think is going to be some nice story/fight show.



Christ, so true.  One of the big reasons I can't tolerate much anime is the obnoxious silliness that frequently invades otherwise serious shows.  Full Metal Alchemist, for example, looked like a pretty really worthwhile show, but I just could not tolerate the regular reminders that the damn thing's for 13-year-olds.

As others have pointed out, there's certainly more anime out there that doesn't descend to such things, but not nearly enough.  Last show I actually liked was Paranoia Agent, and that was three years ago.  (Not that I've really been bothering to look for new stuff, lately.  No time.)



			
				Danzauker said:
			
		

> Well, crap, go back to the Spelljammer Monstrous Supplement in 2e.
> 
> The "Bionoid" or "Bioman" "or  whatever it was, is 100% ripped off "The Guyver", name, art and race concept...



Yep, I recognized that even back then.  I freaking loved that monster suppliment.  That was the same one that had the giant undead insects driven like mecha by elves.  (...Which I guess coulda been a reference to this thing, now that I think about it.)



			
				WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Anime or Not?



Anime as hell.


----------



## heirodule

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> ...




This post rocks. The disappearance of the 2e art style you illustrate is what leaves the taste of "dungeonpunk", even if its not wholly accurate


----------



## Jedi_Solo

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Paizo, not WotC, but that's certainly the closest I've seen in this thread. Still, it's more like someone mixed two styles together, instead of just drawing anime.






			
				GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Anime as hell.




So, in two posts we have two different (if not necessarily opposet) opinions on the same image.  So I ask both posters (and anyone who wants to reply) "Why is it anime/manga style or why is it not anime/manga style?"  And yes; just so everyone is sure we are all on the same page (HA!) and not speculating (then where is all the fun?) cover the obvious stuff.

As for my opinion on it?  I can see where the similarities in that example with the massive ears and the spikey-ish hair.  The eyes may be a little large but I'm not an artist and against the massive ears and poofy hair it's hard to tell.  

I'm not sure if they are trying to be anime or if the artist is even aware that manga influences seem to be getting through but I'd be willing to put that in the win column (depending on where it came from, is that Paizo?).  However, if that is the best example I think we're safe.


----------



## Nifft

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Anime or Not?



 Ears and hair: kinda anime.

Face: not so much.

I'd give it half credit.

Cheers, -- N

PS: I'm so glad I read this thread.


----------



## DandD

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Anti-Sean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, what do I win?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thread.
Click to expand...


No, the Internet. 

Awesome (and freakish cute) as hell!


----------



## Mad Mac

> As for my opinion on it? I can see where the similarities in that example with the massive ears and the spikey-ish hair. The eyes may be a little large but I'm not an artist and against the massive ears and poofy hair it's hard to tell.




  It's definately anime influenced, with the spiky hair and floppy ears, however the execution is more american style, if that makes any sense. Like an attempt to take an anime character and draw them more realistically. Compare to this pic of an anime elf:

http://the.animearchive.org/lodoss/1/deidlet.jpg

Or this pic for spikey hair

http://www.myrrhlynn.net/raquel/screen4.jpg

  Anime style is much simpler and softer, and the overall effect is different.


----------



## AllisterH

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Christ, so true.  One of the big reasons I can't tolerate much anime is the obnoxious silliness that frequently invades otherwise serious shows.  Full Metal Alchemist, for example, looked like a pretty really worthwhile show, but I just could not tolerate the regular reminders that the damn thing's for 13-year-olds.
> 
> .




Dude....FMA?

What episode did you watch up to? I think the japanese tend to insert humour even in "serious" shows to break up the drama. 

That said, FRANKTHEDM's picture is the closest I've seen to anime. American comic books even to this day don't seem to understand the fact that "Speed kills". (ex: The flash has been shown able to evacuate an entire city in under 6 seconds, yet at the same time, he's supposed to be in danger when facing a guy with a cold gun and another normal guy who throws boomerangs)


----------



## GreatLemur

Jedi_Solo said:
			
		

> So, in two posts we have two different (if not necessarily opposet) opinions on the same image.  So I ask both posters (and anyone who wants to reply) "Why is it anime/manga style or why is it not anime/manga style?"  And yes; just so everyone is sure we are all on the same page (HA!) and not speculating (then where is all the fun?) cover the obvious stuff.



  Ears, hair, and eyes are all very anime.  She hasn't got the really over-the-top glistening dinner plate eyes, but they're definitely within the range of styles I'd call "anime".  The non-anime elements would be the fact that the character actually has a nose and lips (not entirely unheard of in anime, yeah, but arguably points against the designation), and the chunky lines and texture.  This image might look out of place in an anime magazine, but not in an Exalted book.  The artist is most definitely anime-influenced.


----------



## Celebrim

IMO, RangerWickett wins the debate.  Big sworded, big haired, violent, tentacled horror?  Check.  D&D 3e art may not be exactly in the anime style, but its alot more in that style than the obviously American style of 2e.

If I had the time, I could go on and on in the theme he opens up.  Just because no one has really got it yet, doesn't mean it isn't there.  I think people are going the wrong way about it.  Although some of the paintings have it, the strongest evidence of manga influence is in black and white line art in 3e compared to manga and not to anime.  Texture details in painted stills versus anime have more to do with the fact that one isn't intended to be animated and the other is than they have to do with general style.


----------



## GreatLemur

AllisterH said:
			
		

> Dude....FMA?
> 
> What episode did you watch up to? I think the japanese tend to insert humour even in "serious" shows to break up the drama.



Definitely, but for me it's got the effect of completely invalidating anything cool that just happened, and keeping me from taking the characters seriously.  Or being interested in the show at all.

I think I make it to about the fourth episode or so.  I know anime series often have this structure of goofier episodes in the beginning and high drama / dark themes towards the end, but I don't really have the time to soldier through a show that annoys me to get to the good stuff.


----------



## Woas

So do I win?

You guys are really doing your best to refute some of these claims. I'm no anime expert by any means but theres a lot of them out there and they all don't look the same.
The new Pathfinder series is rife with that "style" of artwork which supposedly is only "half-anime"... whatever that is.
And I believe this is kind of getting blown out of proportion. I'm sure there are some posts around here where people idly mention how "newfangled D&D art is like them Annie-Mays!" but really I think the deal is that people are complaining about the INFLUENCE of anime. They aren't complaining that Goku is in the PHB as the new monk iconic. It's just the influence.


----------



## Arnwyn

Woas said:
			
		

> And I believe this is kind of getting blown out of proportion. I'm sure there are some posts around here where people idly mention how "newfangled D&D art is like them Annie-Mays!" but really I think the deal is that people are complaining about the INFLUENCE of anime. They aren't complaining that Goku is in the PHB as the new monk iconic. It's just the influence.



I absolutely agree with this. I think when people complain about "anime" in new D&D products, they're complaining about the _influence_ of anime, not that it's anime itself.


----------



## Mad Mac

> I absolutely agree with this. I think when people complain about "anime" in new D&D products, they're complaining about the influence of anime, not that it's anime itself.




  You still have to provide evidence of influence to make this claim, though. If you can't point to a picture and explain what the influence is, and how it's not something just as easily derived from american comic book art and animation, it's hard to move the argument past the "Uh-huh!" "Nuh-Uh!" stage.

  No one is arguing that 3rd edition art is the same as 2nd edition art. But I for one don't see an overt anime influence in the new art. (The Paizo Pic comes closest, but that isn't a Wotc source)


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

ranger wickett, that's an absolutely awesome WAR picture!! Where's it from?

And this thread rocks.


----------



## Branduil

Anti-Sean said:
			
		

> Easiest. Contest. Evar.
> 
> The anime influence in 3.x has been there since the very beginning; they've even plastered it all over the book covers, like this one:



Druids, Barbarians, and Rangers? Shouldn't they be Wizards and Knights?


----------



## Anti-Sean

Branduil said:
			
		

> Druids, Barbarians, and Rangers? Shouldn't they be Wizards and Knights?



I have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## GreatLemur

Celebrim said:
			
		

> Big sworded, big haired, violent, tentacled horror?  Check.  D&D 3e art may not be exactly in the anime style, but its alot more in that style than the obviously American style of 2e.



So on various spectrums--such as weapon size, sense of action, and character design flamboyance--3e's art is generally closer to the bands that various anime and manga inhabit than 2e's art was.  I can certainly buy that.

But it doesn't really make is sound any less absurd when someone points to a Wayne Reynolds painting and says "anime".  There are just a hell of a lot of things his art--and 3e art in general--looks a lot _more_ like than that.  You'd get a lot more traction calling it "comic book" or even "over-the-top", or maybe just "modern".  Frankly, at this point, I think 4e's art would look a lot stranger for trying to _avoid_ the various elements which people will call "anime-influenced", as the definition is apparently so broad as to include dynamic art with interesting characters.


----------



## Arnwyn

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> You still have to provide evidence of influence to make this claim, though. If you can't point to a picture and explain what the influence is, and how it's not something just as easily derived from american comic book art and animation, it's hard to move the argument past the "Uh-huh!" "Nuh-Uh!" stage.



I also agree with this. I also think that it's very difficult for an 'art layman' to articulate their position to the satisfaction of the naysayers (and vice versa).

"I know it when I see it" is often the best you can get from a layman - and in the end it's a legitimate position (though completely unhelpful to any detailed discussion, of course). And with a person who disagrees with the complaint being the sole arbiter of what's anime or not, this thread is doomed to just go around in circles (especially, if I read a previous post correctly - and I sure hope I'm wrong - the OP tried to suggest that Record of the Lodoss War _wasn't_ anime. WTF?).



> No one is arguing that 3rd edition art is the same as 2nd edition art. But I for one don't see an overt anime influence in the new art. (The Paizo Pic comes closest, but that isn't a Wotc source)



I have yet to say either way, myself. However, don't be pedantic - Paizo is unquestionably close enough to WotC (and influential enough to D&D consumers) to be considered the same when people complain about "anime" in D&D art. That's not unreasonable at all when people make an _overall general complaint_ about anime and D&D (which is what people are doing when they make such complaints).

[Aside: For the record, I see very little to no anime influence in D&D, except for the UDON-specific art found in Paizo's stuff - which _is_, unquestionably, anime-influenced (it's UDON!). But that's only in the rare Dungeon or Paizo module issue, and no where near enough to dictate a trend or even make a general statement remotely valid.]


----------



## king_ghidorah

But such claims seem to assume a direct influence, when what I see is a similarity to current comic book art, which takes some influence from anime in layout and composition, and in a few design elements.

Across the board, I still see influences that come from comics from the 80s through the present that take some Japanese elements, a heck of a lot of European influence (Simon Bisley, Metal Hurlant, 2000AD), and some ideosyncratice American elements and put them together into something both derivative and uniquely gaming-centered.




			
				Woas said:
			
		

> So do I win?
> 
> You guys are really doing your best to refute some of these claims. I'm no anime expert by any means but theres a lot of them out there and they all don't look the same.
> The new Pathfinder series is rife with that "style" of artwork which supposedly is only "half-anime"... whatever that is.
> And I believe this is kind of getting blown out of proportion. I'm sure there are some posts around here where people idly mention how "newfangled D&D art is like them Annie-Mays!" but really I think the deal is that people are complaining about the INFLUENCE of anime. They aren't complaining that Goku is in the PHB as the new monk iconic. It's just the influence.


----------



## Stone Dog

AllisterH said:
			
		

> What episode did you watch up to? I think the japanese tend to insert humour even in "serious" shows to break up the drama.



This is true, but it is even more than that.  It is cute and cute is a very big deal in japan.  Reference the wikipedia on "kawaii."  That is where I've noticed most disconnect.  A lot of things in Japan seem more childish and silly than they really are because of it.  Like the FMA thing.  I can't stand FMA either, but that is because I don't like Edward.  I want to smack him and yell "PICK A KIND OF SPAZ AND STICK WITH IT!"  Jeez.


----------



## pawsplay

I think Kunimatyu's first pic is spot on: hyper-dynamic, angled perspective, simplified facial features, something about the color on the armor, etc. It's a killer pic for this contest. 

Unfortunately, I cannot qualify any of the others in the same way. The last one, in particular, looks like it came out of a Legacy of the Force comic, not manga.


----------



## AllisterH

re: Big swords

This is kind of a rarity in the ACTUAL anime that it appears as well. I mean, people in the Berserk world comment about Guts sword in disbelief, you don't see the other AVALANCHE soldiers wielding Buster swords and Ichigo's Unsealed sword _IS_ bigger than average compared to other Shinigami.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Lackhand said:
			
		

> So it's not just the style of drawing the face, but the style of drawing a face more abstractly than usual, with a stand-in to represent emotions.




So South Park is anime?


----------



## pawsplay

Here's my foray:


----------



## Celebrim

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> So on various spectrums--such as weapon size, sense of action, and character design flamboyance--3e's art is generally closer to the bands that various anime and manga inhabit than 2e's art was.  I can certainly buy that.




Good, because that's all I've been saying.



> You'd get a lot more traction calling it "comic book" or even "over-the-top", or maybe just "modern".




I've been calling the art more 'comic book' for a long time.  I don't consider it to be the 'high fantasy art' typical of late 1st edition and 2 edition at its best.  I certainly don't think that the art is more 'modern' unless you mean by that more stylized.



> as the definition is apparently so broad as to include dynamic art with interesting characters.




No, they don't mean that at all.  Thanks for the strawman.  They mean that the art has become more stylized and less realistic, that the character design is more overtop (buckles belts and useless decoration), that the dynamic action is rendered in an highly exaggerated way, that weapon sizes have gotten larger, facial features have gotten more promenate, armor has gotten spikier with exagerated shoulder pads, muscles have gotten more exagerrated, hair has gotten spikier, surfaces tend to be rendered in more monochromatic ways, capes have become longer and more flowing, and so forth.  I'm not the artistic expert needed to definitively say which attributes are manga inspired and which are from Western comics, especially given the cross pollenation between the two, but I think the increased influence of comic book, cartoonish, anime/manga stylings is so pervasive as to be obvious to even people who aren't experts even if they can't point out or articulate exactly what they are looking at.

I think RW did an excellent job of showing rather than telling what people are saying that they usually can't articulate.  I think there are even more dramatic examples - alot of the ink art from the first round of class splatbooks ('Tome and Blood', 'Song and Silence',...) comes immediately to mind.


----------



## Clavis

The biggest influence I see on the art of 3.X edition is actually modern American comic book style. Now modern American comic-book style has been influenced by Japanese manga, but is certainly not identical with it. The other influence I see is 80s-90s British fantasy illustration, as exemplified by Games Workshop miniatures. Incidentally, that GW style first showed itself in D&D with the 1E Fiend Folio, back in the early eighties. If you want to see some impractical armor and weapons, along with deliberately distorted bodies, look at the art in the original Fiend Folio (if you have access to one).

So I would say, that while 3.x editions art is NOT anime or manga style, it is influenced by styles that were themselves influenced by anime and manga.

Incidentally, with the new "points of light" thing that WOTC is talking about, I would expect to see more explicitly GW Warhammer-style art.

Oh, and I while I loved the old Fiend Folio, I tend to dislike the 3.X edition art. But NOT because its anime or manga style.


----------



## The_Gneech

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Here's my foray:




This one "looks anime" to me, I have to agree. But of the ones you posted, it's the only one.

-The Gneech


----------



## AllisterH

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Here's my foray:




This is the only one and that's because I tend to associate "speed fights in a blink of an eye" with anime even though when younger, I used to read and collect Flash comics.

I think Rangerwicket is on to something though. Take for example this picture from PH2,





and I betcha many believe this is true D&D art. Looking at it though, Rangerwicket is right. I want to be there, I want to know the stories behind the caves etc."

However, in previous editions, I never got the sense of "I want to be THAT guy" as much as I do in say WAR's art like below and the other action shots we have in 3.x


----------



## Nifft

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> So South Park is anime?



 If so, then so are the recent Star Wars cartoons.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## pawsplay




----------



## Mythmere1

When I complain about the 3e art being "anime," I mean that the weapons are too big and silly, that the action poses are too extreme, and that body proportions are way out of the human norm.  The argument that the action poses in American comics are also too extreme, and that this is therefore not technically an influence of "anime" leaves me with eyes rolled slightly heavenward ... although I understand and sympathize with what's being said.

My real objection, properly phrased, is that the art derives from comic book styles, some inherent to all superhero comic books, some a recent development in comic books.  That's definitely a broader category than anime, but I haven't seen a shorthand description for "any exaggerated superhero pose," "morphology of more than, say 1:8 head-to-body ratio," "more than a certain number of weapons with wild, spiny flanges, grooves and holes," "any weapons too large/heavy to be used by the critter/person using it if such person had human muscle cell structure - with a little wiggle room for some monsters, but not much," "people almost as wide as they are tall," etc. It's easier to say "anime" than to trot out all that - even though I realize it's unfair to the anime genre.


----------



## Nifft

Mythmere1 said:
			
		

> My real objection, properly phrased, is that the art derives from comic book styles, some inherent to all superhero comic books, some a recent development in comic books.  That's definitely a broader category than anime [...] It's easier to say "anime" than to trot out all that - even though I realize it's unfair to the anime genre.



 I agree with your underlying point -- art has changed, and the more recent artwork is stylized differently than older editions. However, there has always been 'comic-book' art in D&D. The fact that you remember seeing less may be because there was less, or it may be because you skimmed and forgot the art you didn't like. 











Cheers, -- N


----------



## AllisterH

Mythmere1 said:
			
		

> When I complain about the 3e art being "anime," I mean that the weapons are too big and silly, that the action poses are too extreme, and that body proportions are way out of the human norm.  The argument that the action poses in American comics are also too extreme, and that this is therefore not technically an influence of "anime" leaves me with eyes rolled slightly heavenward ... although I understand and sympathize with what's being said.
> 
> .



This is the Warhammer look IMO.

While one can find oversized weapons in anime, you are also more likely to find normal weapons, guys wearing "regular" armour.

Its GW where one finds "heavily decorated armour"/"stunted humans wielding oversized weapons" and that's been true since the 80s.

The Judge Dredd look.


----------



## Geron Raveneye

Nifft said:
			
		

> I agree with your underlying point -- art has changed, and the more recent artwork is stylized differently than older editions. However, there has always been 'comic-book' art in D&D. The fact that you remember seeing less may be because there was less, or it may be because you skimmed and forgot the art you didn't like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Is this the place to vote for Nodwick one-liners in the new Core Rulebooks?


----------



## Xyl

Woas said:
			
		

>








Judges?


----------



## Raven Crowking

Hussar said:
			
		

> Ok, since I cannot give donuts, I have a new reward.
> 
> To anyone who can find three examples of anime art from any WOTC Dungeons and Dragons book, I will add the following to my sig for a year:





Who is the impartial judge of what is or is not "anime" art?

Because, if there is no impartial judge, we might as well have _*diaglo*_ making the same "challenge" related to improvements to the game since OD&D.


RC


----------



## Raven Crowking

deleted


----------



## Raven Crowking

Hussar said:
			
		

> No face faults, body proportions are regular (if comic bookish), colors are pretty standard.  What anime am I supposed to see here?




Define the qualities that would make you agree that something _*is*_ anime inspired, O Most Biased of Judges.

See?  This is why an impartial judge is needed.  Hussar still hasn't changed his sig!


----------



## RangerWickett

Jedi_Solo said:
			
		

> So, in two posts we have two different (if not necessarily opposet) opinions on the same image.  So I ask both posters (and anyone who wants to reply) "Why is it anime/manga style or why is it not anime/manga style?"  And yes; just so everyone is sure we are all on the same page (HA!) and not speculating (then where is all the fun?) cover the obvious stuff.




There's a difference between anime-influenced and anime. Here's a quick demonstration, courtesy of Adobe brand Photoshop. 

*Anime or not?*





Anime style has a much lower level of detail, since it's designed for animation. Putting all that detail into every cell of animation would take for frikkin-ever. Mind you, actual anime style would be even more simplified than the version I have here.

I wish I was more talented as an illustrator, in which case I could just draw the difference. Now, I fully admit that this particular illustration has exaggerated physical features which are similar to what anime character designs look like. But the whole language of storytelling in anime is completely missing from D&D art. The previously discussed face-faults, recycling cells of animation, and long moments of stillness with just pans or zooms are things that don't crop up in D&D.

Really, though, that's not what people are complaining about when they say D&D art is becoming too much like anime. They're either complaining that illustrations show action instead of full scenes, or that artists are being hired who have their own personal styles.

In 2nd edition, I almost always preferred the work of Tony DiTerlizzi to that of Jeff Easley or Larry Elmore, because Tony D had _style_. His work was distinctive.


----------



## Beckett

Anti-Sean said:
			
		

> So, what do I win?




My sincere admiration. It's not often I have to choke back a laugh at work.  Well done.


----------



## pawsplay

I'm miffed no one is impressed with my finding a super-longeared elf dude with deformedly large arms firing several arrows in less than a second. C'mon, I deserve some props for that.


----------



## Mythmere1

Nifft said:
			
		

> I agree with your underlying point -- art has changed, and the more recent artwork is stylized differently than older editions. However, there has always been 'comic-book' art in D&D. The fact that you remember seeing less may be because there was less, or it may be because you skimmed and forgot the art you didn't like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, -- N




We're in agreement about stylization: I do remember both the art I didn't like and I definitely agree that there's comic book influence in early editions.  When I said: "My real objection, properly phrased, is that the art derives from comic book styles, some inherent to all superhero comic books, some a recent development in comic books." I meant (and didn't write well) that the art I don't like derives from some comic book styles inherent to all superhero comics, and from some comic book styles that are recent developments.  I didn't mean to say that I object to all comic book influence - I was trying to specify which comic book influences I objected to and which I didn't.

So, stylization isn't what I'm objecting to (in fact, I think EO is a genius, and his work is more stylized than most comic books).  I'm objecting to some recent forms of stylization PLUS some (like wild poses) that aren't recent but are from comic books.

The two cartoons you posted aren't things I've forgotten or disliked, but I don't think they're relevant one way or the other because they're cartoons.  If the one of the guys with mouse ears had been in there without the caption, I'd have hated it in the old days, too.  If there was a cartoon in a new book, I wouldn't subject it to the same kind of evaluation I do with the serious art.  If you want an example of something I don't like from the old books, it's the PH picture of the powerful magic user superimposed over a cartoon apprentice.  Hate that, because it uses cartoony art in a real illustration.


----------



## Geron Raveneye

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> In 2nd edition, I almost always preferred the work of Tony DiTerlizzi to that of Jeff Easley or Larry Elmore, because Tony D had _style_. His work was distinctive.




Well, from where I stand, Caldwell, Easley and Elmore had their own distinctive styles, too. But there's no accounting for taste.


----------



## RangerWickett

Xyl said:
			
		

> Judges?




Actually, it looks vaguely Japanese, but the color is too dark for anime. More like this:






It does have simple lines, which is a major component of the anime style. It might fly as a manga, but it's certainly not mainstream. Remember:






This is what we're shooting for here!


----------



## hazel monday

Both sides in this argument have a point.
No, there isn't necesarily a lot of actual anime art in 3.5 D&D books.
Yes, there is a lot of Anime influence in 3.5 D&D books.
But that same anime influence can be seen in modern american videogames, comic books, fashion etc...
WOTC is just going with the currnt fad.
Even though I personally don't like it, I really can't fault them for that.


----------



## Xyl

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Actually, it looks vaguely Japanese, but the color is too dark for anime.




Sorry, there was supposed to be a second image there. Fixed.


----------



## Raven Crowking

If I could find an anime program rare enough that you didn't know it, and claimed the images taken from it were from a D&D book you didn't have, I have the strong impression I would be told that the pictures were American Comic Book Style......or anything other than anime.

This contest is rigged.


RC


----------



## AllisterH

Xyl said:
			
		

> Sorry, there was supposed to be a second image there. Fixed.




That second image definitely looks like something from a French animation company. I can't point out what exactly but I know animation from France when I see it.


----------



## RangerWickett

Xyl said:
			
		

> Sorry, there was supposed to be a second image there. Fixed.




What's it from?


----------



## RangerWickett

AllisterH said:
			
		

> That second image definitely looks like something from a French animation company. I can't point out what exactly but I know animation from France when I see it.




Nah, I could imagine it being something from Hellsing or a similar horror anime.


----------



## BryonD

You know, there is a big difference between anime influence and "damn that looks so dead on exactly like XYZ anime title that it clearly is beyond any question an example of anime".

I've never been one to claim that D&D art is being overtaken by anime.  But there certainly has been, in my view, a clear influence is some cases.  And I find that to be a bad thing in regard to my personal taste.  And there are examples within this thread that meet that criteria.

A bunch a bs poser "I know anime and you don't" snobbery doesn't really change it.  To the contrary, I'd suggest that in a zeal to point out your superior mastery of a topic that the other side feels zero shame for being uneducated in, you pretty well rule out any chance that you may understand the point they are making.

Why is this in the 4E forum?


----------



## Anti-Sean

Beckett said:
			
		

> My sincere admiration.









Do you realize how difficult it is to pay for ale and whores with 'sincere admiration'?!


----------



## Gundark

One could argue that american comics of the mid to late 90s were influnced by anime. Several top artists were anime influnced (Joe Madureira, J. Scott campbell, to name the obvious ones). Back then comics were drawn more "cartoony". The current trend in American comics is a darker more realistic style.

Anime isn't just the big eyes and small mouth, it's also how they protray the action and the environment.

Eberron and the book of the 9 swords does have a more cartoony look

Anyhow this art done by Joe Madureira of a female shifter, done for Races of Eberron is the closest thing I could find. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/roe_gallery/88265.jpg


----------



## Doug McCrae

Mythmere1 said:
			
		

> It's easier to say "anime" than to trot out all that - even though I realize it's unfair to the anime genre.



Looks like we need a new word or phrase to describe the modern art style. Anime ain't cutting it.

The two major features of anime, imo, are big eyes/small mouth and lack of detail. Neither of which is to be found in the art in question. Rather it's blacklined, dynamic, non-historical armour, oversized weaponry and muscles, superpowers, non-human subjects. Comic booky, superheroy, Games Workshopy or Bisleyesque would be better terms. Even Frazetta-esque would be better though then you'd get the problem that everyone would think it was a compliment.   

Dungeonpunk seems to refer more to the tats, piercings and bare midriffs on women. Though also to the spiked armour. And supposedly to spikey hair though in fact there is none in the 3e PHB. The cover of the Warhammer 1e rules is actually a better example of dungeonpunk than D&D.

In the 80s GW used to mock their own style as 'chaos spikey death bits' referring to the unrealistic spiked armour and weaponry.


----------



## Xyl

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> What's it from?



Red Garden.


----------



## Cadfan

For crying out loud.

D&D art isn't "anime" (people really mean Japanese) influenced in any more than the most minor aspects, only visible to the trained and highly critical eye.

If you want to see art which is a fusion of western comic/fantasy art with anime and manga, there are plenty of RPGs and games in which you can view it.  Consider Anima, or Infinity.

This whole debate is extra bizarre due to the fact that meaningfully anime influenced art is easily available for review.


----------



## blargney the second

Woas said:
			
		

>



This one is a particularly interesting case.  As others have said, anime is an animated media, which has consequences on the style.  Animations tend to have significantly lower quality than static art.

In conclusion, what this image has in common with anime is that it's freaking awful.
-blarg

ps  - I like anime, and some of them even look nice.


----------



## schporto

Cheating a little...
Do any of these minis count?
Fire Giant War Priest  (nice hair!)
http://cgi.ebay.com/D-D-Miniatures-...QcategoryZ2545QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

Slaughter stone eviserator
http://cgi.ebay.com/D-D-Miniatures-...QcategoryZ2545QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

Ponitfex
http://www.miniaturetrading.com/img/miniatures/Dungeons&Dragons/847/big/6.jpg

Or from Psionics
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80448.jpg

I mean he's got that really big honking sword.
-cpd


----------



## Doug McCrae

BryonD said:
			
		

> A bunch a bs poser "I know anime and you don't" snobbery doesn't really change it.  To the contrary, I'd suggest that in a zeal to point out your superior mastery of a topic that the other side feels zero shame for being uneducated in, you pretty well rule out any chance that you may understand the point they are making.



If we don't have respect for knowledge then we're lost.


----------



## Branduil

Please stop comparing still images to anime. 

The Japanese term for comic books is manga. If any of the art in this thread is comparable to Japanese art it would be comparable to manga, not anime.


----------



## Dm_from_Brazil

*It´s from Brazil, but it´s Anime...*

Well, here in Brazil we have a D20 Scenario called "Holy Avenger" - it´s a very typical fantays scenario, but that´s 100% certified Anime art - damn, the pencilers name is Erika *Awano*...

See below some of the art of Holy Avenger:


----------



## Arnwyn

Branduil said:
			
		

> Please stop comparing still images to anime.
> 
> The Japanese term for comic books is manga. If any of the art in this thread is comparable to Japanese art it would be comparable to manga, not anime.



We've seen your (multiple) posts on this.

We're ignoring your pedantry.


----------



## WizarDru

It would be disingenuous to suggest anime has not had an influence on western comic book artists in the last 20 years.  Folks like Frank Miller were doing manga-inspired work over by the time he did Ronin, for example.  Eastman and Laird have made a decades-long career out of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles which, originally, was a direct parody/homage to some of the same material that inspired Miller.

Folks also need to remember that anime is informed by Western culture just as much.  Bubble Gum Crisis stole very heavily and blatantly from Blade Runner, for example.  Much early anime and manga was inspired by American animators and European comics.  That those influences are coming back around should hardly be surprising.  Anime and manga artists were drawing their inspiration not just from Osamu Tezuka and Shotaro Ishinomori, but also from folks like Jack Kirby, Moebius, Richard Corben and Enki Bilal.

More recent artists may or may not be directly influenced by manga and anime, but the youngest generation of Western artists certainly is informed by any and all of these sources.  The problem with this sort of discussion is that apparently no one can even agree what anime IS, let alone the scope of its influence.  The Seven Samurai was influenced John Ford westerns and kabuki theater.  The Magnificent Seven was, in turn, a copy of that.  The Dark Tower, by Stephen King, takes inspiration from BOTH of them.  And to bring us back to Japan, a story arc in the second Fist of the Northstar series (aka Hokuto no Ken 2) featured characters called the "Wasteland Seven", which was the film's title in Japan and are modeled after the cowboys.

My point is that you can't ask to remove the influence (especially with some folks saying applying the same definition to anime that they do to pornography...making it a total personal and subjective label), so much as select the art that you like.  Much of the illustrations shown here don't feature anime tropes or even specifically anime-inspired layouts.  American and European comics have featured many of these techniques since the late 60s and early 70s.  And each group can influence the other, sometimes in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

The Paizo artwork, for example, is clearly by some artists who very consciously are influenced and possibly even are attempting to emulate the anime style (I forget their names...the Kim brothers?  Memory fails me).  On the other hand, some of the art presented here as 'anime' doesn't really have any obvious point-at elements of anime you can name.  Dynamic layouts certainly aren't an anime or manga exclusive thing.  A lot of what I see above was the kind of stuff Kirby was doing in the early 1960s, before manga OR anime really existed in any sort of quantity.






And one final thing to consider:  When Osamu Tezuka pretty much invented what we now consider MANGA and ANIME, his style of art was considered WESTERN.


----------



## blargney the second

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> We've seen your (multiple) posts on this.
> 
> We're ignoring your pedantry.



1) That's rude.
2) Speak for yourself.
3) It's not pedantry; it's accurate and completely cogent to the discussion at hand.


----------



## Nifft

Look at those eyes. Case closed, right?






Cheers, -- N


----------



## Anti-Sean

Nifft said:
			
		

> Look at those eyes. Case closed, right?



That's big eyes, *big* mouth - we're looking for big eyes, *small* mouth.


----------



## Arnwyn

blargney the second said:
			
		

> 1) That's rude.



I do apologize for that. It looks more curt/abrupt than I intended.



> 2) Speak for yourself.



I don't see you using the separate terms, nor do I see anyone else bothering.



> 3) It's not pedantry; it's accurate and completely cogent to the discussion at hand.



It certainly is not. Turning around and now saying "manga-influenced" (or cutting & pasting every instance of "anime" with "manga") will change nothing in this thread, and simply confuse a few more. In the context of this thread, it's pedantry.


----------



## Nifft

Anti-Sean said:
			
		

> That's big eyes, *big* mouth - we're looking for big eyes, *small* mouth.



 That makes things a lot harder. In D&D, most things have big mouths so they can eat PCs...








But this one may be the clincher. Look at that eye!






"Big eyes, small beak?"

Cheers, -- N


----------



## blargney the second

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> I do apologize for that. It looks more curt/abrupt than I intended.
> I don't see you using the separate terms, nor do I see anyone else bothering.
> It certainly is not. Turning around and now saying "manga-influenced" (or cutting & pasting every instance of "anime" with "manga") will change nothing in this thread, and simply confuse a few more. In the context of this thread, it's pedantry.



Arnwyn, no worries. 

In a discussion where we're comparing and contrasting art styles, it's helpful to have useful and meaningful terms.  Anime, manga, and japanese art are distinct styles.  Branduil's assertions are on the mark.
-blarg


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

Could someone please link to those amazing WAR pictures? I can't find them on his galleries. What WotC books are they from (thought I'd seen all WAR WotC art.

Thanks


----------



## ehren37

Celebrim said:
			
		

> They mean that the art has become more stylized and less realistic, that the character design is more overtop (buckles belts and useless decoration), that the dynamic action is rendered in an highly exaggerated way




Wow, you're right. Thank god we can always fall back to the hyper realistic era of 1st edition art.






And just look at the style and attention to anatomy displayed here!







PS... Diaperman


----------



## JohnSnow

AllisterH said:
			
		

> I think Rangerwicket is on to something though. Take for example this picture from PH2,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I betcha many believe this is true D&D art. Looking at it though, Rangerwicket is right. I want to be there, I want to know the stories behind the caves etc."




I actually regard that image as a VERY good sign. I love WAR's art and my only real complaint is that it often gets shoved inside the cover. Leave it out in the open. That said, it looks like 4e is going for much more interest flavor in book covers than 3e (thank god!)

For example, the PHB:






the DMG:






And finally, the monster manual:






I personally have my fingers crossed. 4e's art looks pretty good so far.

Of course, I'm probably weird. I've been playing for over 25 years and I LIKE the changes they're making to the game's flavor.


----------



## Stone Dog

I don't think it is a bad picture, but I really really think that PH1 cover could stand a different piece.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

I think the PHB1 cover will be different. Notice how there seems to be a third figure on the far right. Hardly a picture made espcially as the cover art. More likely some illustrayion used as placeholder.


----------



## Merlin the Tuna

Stone Dog said:
			
		

> I don't think it is a bad picture, but I really really think that PH1 cover could stand a different piece.



There was an edit floating around a little while ago in which the woman was wearing armor that wasn't ridiculous.  It did a lot for the picture.


----------



## Hawkshere

*D&D is a series of tubes...*

Waaay back when I was working my first post-high school job at Camelot Music (mall-job, woot!), I remember getting a quiet chuckle when an elderly customer told her pre-teen grandson that could pick out anything except "that acid rock stuff".

 

Now, we certainly had some genuine acid-rock in the store, if you knew what to look for, but I'm pretty sure little Timmy was not in there for a copy of _Surrealistic Pillow_. Rather, being the Summer of _Pyromania_ (also sometimes known as 1983), grandma most likely intended her admonition to mean *heavy metal*, a clueless-but-common misnomer of the time. This was all instantly clear in the moment, but I would never have corrected the customer, because it was also clear that the distinction was totally meaningless to her. She knew what she meant, I knew what she meant, and most importantly, her grandson knew what she meant (even if he'd never heard of "acid rock" before, which I doubt he had).

I'm not intending this as a threadcrap; this is a fun thread. However, I think the notion that you can "correct" willfull ignorance is entirely mistaken. It's fun and educational to argue about the merits of such mischaracterizations; just don't ever expect to convince the hairshirts that they don't know what the hell they're talking about.


----------



## Gundark

This is some art that was done by Joe Madureira. This is from the Races of Eberron book
Definitely Maga influences there





While Joe Mad is an american comic artist, he has cited several times that Japanese style of art has been a major influence on his work


----------



## Celebrim

ehren37 said:
			
		

> Wow, you're right. Thank god we can always fall back to the hyper realistic era of 1st edition art.




I think I was pretty careful to separate early 1st edition art with its comparitively low production values and lack of clear artistic direction from late 1st edition and 2nd edition art.  I'm not sure what you think you are proving.  That 1st edition had several stylistic periods has been pretty much universally accepted.


----------



## Keldryn

None of the art show here depicts characters that look inspired by anime.

If one of these character did look inspired by anime, then

1) His head would be shaped like a little bean.

2) He'd have a tiny mouth when closed, RIDICULOUSLY huge when open.

3) His boots would be a whole lot cooler.  Like, robot boots.  *THUNK*

4) He'd have blue hair.  You gotta have blue hair.


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

... and then he'd fly around in space, making cool poses 'n' stuff.


----------



## Klaus

You guys need to expand your concept of "anime" and "manga":

Crying Freeman





Lone Wolf & Cub





Here's a page on several different styles of manga/anime:
http://www.sailorenergy.net/HowToDraw/HOWTODiagramRealAnime.html


----------



## Mad Mac

That Manga link is really cool, thanks. 

  I know manga art is often a bit more detailed than anime art, for obvious reasons, but it's hard to link Manga Art...I mean, if you've got full page scans up, you're basically stealing the product. 

  I wouldn't call Wolf and Cub Art typical of the genre though...it's out there, but much harder to find at your local bookstore than the more anime looking stuff.


----------



## FireLance

This, to me, is the most anime-influenced piece of artwork I've found so far - Gnome Alchemist from Races of Stone:


----------



## Hairfoot

Klaus said:
			
		

> You guys need to expand your concept of "anime" and "manga"



Again, I don't think that's the issue.  If D&D began leaning toward the artistic and thematic style of more "serious" anime/manga, it simply wouldn't be noticed, because some of it fits perfectly.

What inspires threads like this is the "killer kawaii" style that leans toward Dragonball Z, or even Vampire Hunter D.

In fact, D is a perfect example of where I would like the line drawn between anime and D&D.  The style and themes are excellent, but it's still about Matrix-like wall-running and huge pastel hairstyles.  While that type of aesthetic and theme should be _viable _ with D&D, I wouldn't like it to be the goal.


----------



## Jackelope King

FireLance said:
			
		

> This, to me, is the most anime-influenced piece of artwork I've found so far - Gnome Alchemist from Races of Stone:



Also by far one of my favorites from 3.Xe or any edition, really.


----------



## Philotomy Jurament

Anti-Sean said:
			
		

> That's big eyes, *big* mouth - we're looking for big eyes, *small* mouth.



He has a small mouth.  You just caught him in the middle of a face-fault...


----------



## TwinBahamut

FireLance said:
			
		

> This, to me, is the most anime-influenced piece of artwork I've found so far - Gnome Alchemist from Races of Stone:



Wow, this would be the first piece of art posted in this thread I would actually agree is anime-inspired. Of course, there are all kinds of influence from other sources (art from children's books, maybe?), but it is fairly anime-styled.


----------



## mhacdebhandia

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> Wow, this would be the first piece of art posted in this thread I would actually agree is anime-inspired. Of course, there are all kinds of influence from other sources (art from children's books, maybe?), but it is fairly anime-styled.



Nope, the use of colour is completely different.


----------



## Celebrim

FireLance said:
			
		

> This, to me, is the most anime-influenced piece of artwork I've found so far - Gnome Alchemist from Races of Stone:




Hmmm... Big widely spaced eyes?  Check.  The smaller the character, the bigger it's eyes?  Check.  Hair appears to be supernaturally animated?  Check.

Yeah, I'd say that qualifies.  There is a lot of finishing details and textures you wouldn't find in an anime cell, and probably not even in a manga (mainly because you wouldn't take the time to draw them in every cell).  But, it's clearly feeling the influence.


----------



## Keldryn

So, does this mean that Elfquest would be a "bad" influence on D&D?  





















(In the BECM D&D GAZ5 The Elves of Alfheim, the three pictured leaders of the Longrunner clan look almost exactly like Cutter, Leetah, and Skywise).


----------



## GreatLemur

Celebrim said:
			
		

> No, they don't mean that at all.  Thanks for the strawman.  They mean that the art has become more stylized and less realistic, that the character design is more overtop (buckles belts and useless decoration), that the dynamic action is rendered in an highly exaggerated way, that weapon sizes have gotten larger, facial features have gotten more promenate, armor has gotten spikier with exagerated shoulder pads, muscles have gotten more exagerrated, hair has gotten spikier, surfaces tend to be rendered in more monochromatic ways, capes have become longer and more flowing, and so forth.



Po_tay_to, po_tah_to.  That wasn't a strawman; it was a personal opinion.

Fifteen years ago, I thought Elmore and Easley's work was the best RPG art I could imagine.  Today, it doesn't really interest me.


----------



## Celebrim

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Po_tay_to, po_tah_to.  That wasn't a strawman; it was a personal opinion.




I would accept it as a personal opinion of you were speaking about yourself, not labeling others.  For example, if you said, "I find the objectional pictures interesting and dynamic.", that isn't a strawman, because its about you.  The reason I called it a strawman is because you were characterizing other people's arguments in ways that they would not themselves use: "the definition is apparently so broad as to include dynamic art with interesting characters"  How could anyone support people that are opposed to "dynamic art with interesting characters"?  Strawman.  You might as well have said that anyone who doesn't like what you like doesn't like things that are interesting and dynamic.

Quite obviously, people _aren't_ opposed to dynamic art with interesting characters.  They differ on what is interesting.  It may well be wrong to be opposed to the things that they are opposed to, but it isn't 'interesting' or 'dynamic' which is being opposed.  It may be that the things that they are opposed to are in your opinion 'interesting' and 'dynamic', but it isn't true that the things you like are the only things that are interesting and dynamic.  The positive experession of your opinion is to try to demonstrate that the things people are in oposition to are interesting and dynamic.

What you said though was just a back handed ad hominem.


----------



## GreatLemur

Celebrim said:
			
		

> I would accept it as a personal opinion of you were speaking about yourself, not labeling others.  For example, if you said, "I find the objectional pictures interesting and dynamic.", that isn't a strawman, because its about you.  The reason I called it a strawman is because you were characterizing other people's arguments in ways that they would not themselves use: "the definition is apparently so broad as to include dynamic art with interesting characters"  How could anyone support people that are opposed to "dynamic art with interesting characters"?  Strawman.  You might as well have said that anyone who doesn't like what you like doesn't like things that are interesting and dynamic.



Yes, I realize the nature of your misunderstanding.  As you yourself point out, it wouldn't make very much sense for me to accuse someone of disliking art on the grounds that _they themselves consider it interesting and dynamic_, so I didn't expect it was really necessary to wallow in this specific semantic mire.


----------



## GreatLemur

Keldryn said:
			
		

> So, does this mean that Elfquest would be a "bad" influence on D&D?



Elfquest is a bad influence on the paper it's printed on.


----------



## TwinBahamut

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> Nope, the use of colour is completely different.



Huh?

Can't say that I think it is important... There are a huge variety of ways things get colored in anime, and manga is black and white, so I don't really agree that anime-style vs. not-anime style is well defined by use of color.


----------



## Hussar

FireLance said:
			
		

> This, to me, is the most anime-influenced piece of artwork I've found so far - Gnome Alchemist from Races of Stone:




Yeah, I gotta agree with Firelance on this one too.  I can see that one.  

The other ones, like the guy in armor way back when could be... but not really.  If you have to kinda squint and turn your head sideways to see it, I'm not gonna count it.  Unfair?  Too bad.

For years we've seen people screaming up and down how 3e art is so heavily influenced by anime.  Is there an anime influence beyond what you'd see in pretty much any comic book out there?  Not really.  Anime (or more properly manga, I've been using the terms interchangeably, my bad) has a relationship with western art, of course.  Both feed off of each other and inspire the other.

Pretty much all of the "manga art" inspired stuff that's been posted would not look out of place in an X-Men comic.  Certainly not out of place in a Dark Horse comic.  Is that because western comics have been influenced by manga?  Probably.  That's fair enough, we've influenced their forms quite a lot as well.

But, as far as seeing clear cut examples of "manga art" in WOTC (and NO, Paizo does not count) books, we're 5 pages in and have exactly one example that might pass.

As to why this is in the 4e forums, meh, bump it to 3e if it bothers you.  We're already seeing the "Oh NOES!  4e art will be BESM" crap making the rounds, so, I figured to nip it in the bud right here and now.

Looking at the recent Dragon article on the Ecology of the Death Knight, I'm certainly not seeing a whole lot of Anime/Manga inspiration.


----------



## Hussar

Oh, and something else that occurred to me.  I'm seeing some proxy edition war art discussion going on.  What art occurred in earlier editions is beyond the scope of this thread.  It doesn't matter if Di Terlizzi is your personal god, if it doesn't appear in a 3e book, it's not up for discussion.

Please stop crapping in my thread.


----------



## Chris_Nightwing

I really miss 2nd edition art - I loved some of the pieces from the old Tome of Magic. It's just a matter of taste though, and I prefer the old character on a detailed backdrop to detailed characters on an exploding backdrop. The new PHB cover isn't my favourite :s


----------



## Geron Raveneye

Hussar said:
			
		

> As to why this is in the 4e forums, meh, bump it to 3e if it bothers you.  We're already seeing the "Oh NOES!  4e art will be BESM" crap making the rounds, so, I figured to nip it in the bud right here and now.




So basically you're setting yourself up as the foremost expert and authority on what others are supposed to think about 3E/4E art in D&D, hmm? You really think it'll change anything if you point to every picture posted here, claiming "NOT ANIME" or "NOT VALID" or "COULD BE IN A COMIC BOOK"? Just curious, because I can't take it at all serious...and I'm not one of those "D&D is teh animeh!" boogeymen. People use the expression to short-hand their dislikes about certain artwork, and this here won't budge anybody to do differently.

And to be honest, trying to find "100% anime" in D&D is completely beside the point of those who use the word in context with D&D. It has already been mentioned that "anime" is meant to describe a lot of factors that the respective person percieves as being derived from anime/manga, not that the picture in question could serve as a cell in Inu Yasha. Narrowing the whole thing doen to "killer kawaii" style only helps to try and ridicule the opinions of those who actually try to discuss anime/manga influences on D&D art seriously, and isn't helping either. And the whole argument chain about "western comics have been influenced by manga/anime, so most pics would feel right at home in X-Men" is a hilarious cop-out, seeing how the discussion of "mangafication" is going through the comics fandom just as much, if not more. Going "It's not Inu Yasha, so you're wrong!" isn't really helpful...trying to make it look like a "serious contest" doesn't make it better either. Basically, what you're doing is trying to set your opinion of what looks like it was inspired by anime rather than e.g. Frazetta up as the primary one, and yourself as final arbiter of it.

If you want to deny that there is an influence of anime/manga styles in D&D artwork, or fantasy artwork as a whole, that's your personal shtick (to crib from hong), but trying to make yourself the final authority on it and trying to suppress the opinions of others by setting your opinion up as the "only right" one is bollocks.


----------



## The_Gneech

Honestly, if I had my choice, the "Caves of Chaos" picture WOULD be the PHB cover. WAR is rapidly losing my interest. :\ 

-The Gneech


----------



## Raven Crowking

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> If you want to deny that there is an influence of anime/manga styles in D&D artwork, or fantasy artwork as a whole, that's your personal shtick (to crib from hong), but trying to make yourself the final authority on it and trying to suppress the opinions of others by setting your opinion up as the "only right" one is bollocks.





Quoted for Truth.


----------



## Arnwyn

Hussar said:
			
		

> For years we've seen people screaming up and down how 3e art is so heavily influenced by anime.
> /snip/
> But, as far as seeing clear cut examples of "manga art" in WOTC (and NO, Paizo does not count)



Why not?



			
				Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> So basically you're setting yourself up as the foremost expert and authority on what others are supposed to think about 3E/4E art in D&D, hmm? You really think it'll change anything if you point to every picture posted here, claiming "NOT ANIME" or "NOT VALID" or "COULD BE IN A COMIC BOOK"? Just curious, because I can't take it at all serious...and I'm not one of those "D&D is teh animeh!" boogeymen. People use the expression to short-hand their dislikes about certain artwork, and this here won't budge anybody to do differently.



QFT.


----------



## WizarDru

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> And to be honest, trying to find "100% anime" in D&D is completely beside the point of those who use the word in context with D&D. It has already been mentioned that "anime" is meant to describe a lot of factors that the respective person percieves as being derived from anime/manga, not that the picture in question could serve as a cell in Inu Yasha.




I'm not disagreeing with that point, but it is awfully frustrating to try and argue that D&D is not overly influenced by anime when the definition of anime appears to be indicated as both incredibly broad AND incredibly narrow at the same time.  In a previous thread, some folks said that it was ridiculous to try and refute what anime was because people more familiar with anime could always find exceptions to whatever rule was offered (for example: all anime has people with dish-sized eyes and ridiculous sized weapons).  But at the same time, many of those same people then returned to the discussion by saying that anime was a broad set of qualities that applied equally to anime, comic books and several other visual mediums.  In other words, we return to the 'anime as pornography' argument of "I know it when I see it".  That makes any discussion of it problematic.  By making anime so subjective and personal, it's virtually impossible to refute the scope of it's influence, artistically.

Put another way: Is Jethro Tull a Heavy Metal band?


----------



## Raven Crowking

WizarDru, I guess "anime" is like "sense of wonder"......

.......And Hussar just found his own personal version of the "sense of wonder" thread!


----------



## ehren37

Hussar said:
			
		

> Oh, and something else that occurred to me.  I'm seeing some proxy edition war art discussion going on.  What art occurred in earlier editions is beyond the scope of this thread.  It doesn't matter if Di Terlizzi is your personal god, if it doesn't appear in a 3e book, it's not up for discussion.
> 
> Please stop crapping in my thread.




I think it bears a certain relevance, particularly when people talk about art growing less realistic throughout the editions. There were quite a large number of spandex heroes in 1st edition. 






Take this guy... I'd say he's clearly derivative of your typical anime villain, white hair, uber cool sword, impractical armor and all. Were it in a 3rd edition product, you knwo someone would have posted it by now.






You're going to have edition war stuff crop up in the thread, since its based on a grognard complaint about new editions.


----------



## WayneLigon

Hussar said:
			
		

> Yeah, I gotta agree with Firelance on [Gnome Alchemist illustration] too.  I can see that one.




See, I _don't _ consider that one very anime-like. It seems more Hildebrant-like with the 'small races' given human-child-like proportions (which include a larger head and eyes) rather than the 'normal' 3E human-adult-proportions that at least halflings have.


----------



## AllisterH

I still think Rangerwickett's post was the best one for this thread.

Looking at Easley, Elmore and Caldwell, I don't know of any good action shots a la WAR. Personally, when I look at a 2E picture, I don't think "I want to be that guy/gal/whatever". I just want to find out about the story behind the picture.

With WAR, I want to be that buttkicker.


----------



## Desdichado

blargney the second said:
			
		

> 1) That's rude.
> 2) Speak for yourself.
> 3) It's not pedantry; it's accurate and completely cogent to the discussion at hand.



1) No moreso than the continued "say manga, not anime, dammit!" posts have been.
2) He also speaks for me, as it turns out.
3) No, it's pedantic.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Branduil said:
			
		

> Please stop comparing still images to anime.
> 
> The Japanese term for comic books is manga. If any of the art in this thread is comparable to Japanese art it would be comparable to manga, not anime.



You do realize that the art style in manga and anime is similar, if not identical, don't you?  In many cases, an anime is emulating the style of the artist of the manga the anime is based on, or a manga is written as a "novelization" of an anime, and emulates the anime's style.

The distinction is therefore more or less vacuous.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Gundark said:
			
		

> This is some art that was done by Joe Madureira. This is from the Races of Eberron book
> Definitely Maga influences there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While Joe Mad is an american comic artist, he has cited several times that Japanese style of art has been a major influence on his work



Sweet baby Jesus!  I don't play Eberron, but that image alone makes me want to buy the book.  I hope WotC keeps Mad there on call for 4E.  That's a seriously sweet picture; beautifully composed, dynamic, with excellent use of colour and perspective, and it certainly gets across the artist's concept of what shifters are like.  Thumbs up!


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> There was an edit floating around a little while ago in which the woman was wearing armor that wasn't ridiculous.  It did a lot for the picture.



If by "did a lot" you mean "removed some of the depth, colour, and compositional balance, and made the picture look like a messy photoshop," I agree with you.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Consider what an 'action scene' in the 2nd edition style looked like:
> 
> *snip*
> 
> To what action is today:
> 
> *snip*




It seems to me that the main difference between the former and the latter is the addition of action.  Raistlin there looks like he's about to fall asleep, while his opponent looks less like he's summoning up some devastating effect to destroy his mortal enemy, and more like he's pulling taffy.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Nifft said:
			
		

> Look at those eyes. Case closed, right?
> 
> *snip*
> 
> Cheers, -- N



Oh yeah?  Check out these eyes.  Totally anime.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

*Still waiting for a merge function.*



			
				Mad Mac said:
			
		

> That Manga link is really cool, thanks.
> 
> I know manga art is often a bit more detailed than anime art, for obvious reasons, but it's hard to link Manga Art...I mean, if you've got full page scans up, you're basically stealing the product.
> 
> I wouldn't call Wolf and Cub Art typical of the genre though...it's out there, but much harder to find at your local bookstore than the more anime looking stuff.



That's a recent development.  It's published by Dark Horse, and is still easy to find in most comic book stores I've been to.  I think it's still being reprinted, even.  Of course, the manga section at the local bookstore is flooded with stuff by TokyoPop and Viz, so they might not even put LWaC in with that stuff.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Oh yeah?  Check out these eyes.  Totally anime.





You are aware, I hope, that the early anime style was directly influenced by exactly the characters you are showing here?

Read _The Anime Encyclopedia_ if you doubt!  

RC


----------



## Anti-Sean

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> You are aware, I hope, that the early anime style was directly influenced by exactly the characters you are showing here?



Now that's just Goofy.


----------



## DandD

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> If by "did a lot" you mean "removed some of the depth, colour, and compositional balance, and made the picture look like a messy photoshop," I agree with you.



It was a messy photoshop, which the editor admitted fully, and without shame. It still let the female warrior look a little bit less silly than it already is.


----------



## Nifft

DandD said:
			
		

> It was a messy photoshop, which the editor admitted fully, and without shame. It still let the female warrior look a little bit less silly than it already is.



 Compared to how her male companion is dressed, I find the female warrior a portrait of modesty.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Hussar

For those of you complaining that I'm being sole judge here, well, tell you what, pony up your sig and we'll let you judge too.  Don't like it?  Don't play.  Too easy.

I'm willing to be convinced, but, that's the point, you have to convince me.  There's no more anime influence in most of these images than what you would find in DC or Marvel comics for the past fifteen years.  So, whining about the "anime influence" is just that.  Whining.  

Paizo does not count because it's not WOTC.  Seems pretty straight forward to me.  Until the digital version of Dragon this week, I can't recall Marc Sasso gracing the pages of WOTC books.  UDON does not do WOTC.  Chuck Lucacs does not do WOTC (as far as I can remember).  Paizo has its own stable of artists and its own art director.  Thus, it's not WOTC.  Paizo is no larger than say, Mongoose or Green Ronin, and I'm not including them either.  This is about WOTC.

The challenge is out there boys and girls.  It's on the table.  I had the intestinal fortitude to pony up, and whining about the game isn't going to change the rules.  Either piddle or get off the pot.

As a side note, I've got no problems with saying you don't like the art.  Personally, I dislike WAR.  I find his overly detailed characters distracting.  Then again, I didn't like Todd McFarlane's Spider Man for exactly the same reason.  Too busy for my tastes.  But, that's the point.  I'm saying that I don't like it and that's fine. I'm not saying, "Oh, I don't like this, therefore it's bad and should never appear in a book".

And that's the difference.  For those who cry and bitch about the "anime influence" in the artwork, for the most part, they're trying to say that the art is bad and shouldn't be there.  It couldn't possibly be that their tastes are just different and that's why they don't like the images.  No, of course not.  Their discriminating tastes should dictate to the rest of us what the art of the game should look like and "anime" is the easy shortcut buzzword they use.

The problem is, the easy shortcut buzzword isn't very accurate.  For the most part, it's flat out wrong.  There is very, very little evidence to support the idea of anime influence in 3e art, and now 4e art as well.  This thread pretty much shows that.  5 pages in, nearly 200 posts and we still have yet to see a single clear cut example.  NOT ONE.


----------



## Hussar

Hey, I just noticed, Hildebrant's hobbits have pointy ears.  They're SO anime.  






I see the point about the "wee folk" shapes.  Is it anime or is it Hildebrant?  The above pic is from the 70's, so, not much anime influence there.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> You are aware, I hope, that the early anime style was directly influenced by exactly the characters you are showing here?
> 
> Read _The Anime Encyclopedia_ if you doubt!
> 
> RC



Perhaps my humour is too subtle...


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Hussar said:
			
		

> Hey, I just noticed, Hildebrant's hobbits have pointy ears.  They're SO anime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see the point about the "wee folk" shapes.  Is it anime or is it Hildebrant?  The above pic is from the 70's, so, not much anime influence there.



That female hobbit's got more "big eyes/small mouth" going on than the Races of Stone gnome that everyone was so on about earlier in the thread.


----------



## DandD

Nifft said:
			
		

> Compared to how her male companion is dressed, I find the female warrior a portrait of modesty.



The "male companion" has horns and is probably a freakish wizard/sorceror/warlock/whateverevilspawn. They always dress silly. That doesn't mean that the female warrior has to be as silly as the horned guy.


----------



## Nifft

DandD said:
			
		

> The "male companion" has horns and is probably a freakish wizard/sorceror/warlock/whateverevilspawn. They always dress silly. That doesn't mean that the female warrior has to be as silly as the horned guy.



 Sure, but she's showing six square inches (none of which are indecent), while he's showing about two square feet.

His hornyness isn't the issue. 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## DandD

He's the horned freak with appearently obvious spellcasting powers, and D&D casters always dress silly. And he doesn't even have the excuse to be female. 
And to be somehow ontopic, Slain of "Record of Lodoss War" had the decency to wear a complete robe. Therefore, the horned freak-guy isn't anime/manga/whatever.


----------



## Hussar

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> WizarDru, I guess "anime" is like "sense of wonder"......
> 
> .......And Hussar just found his own personal version of the "sense of wonder" thread!




There's a difference though.  I'm not actually claiming anything.  I'm asking those who claim the anime influence on 3e and 4e art to actually back up their claim.  As to whether or not I personally like the art is irrelavent.  I'm not claiming any sort of authority.  I just want those who've for the past seven years or so, been flapping their gums, to actually show some evidence.

Those who see the anime influence seem to take it for granted that it's somehow self evident.  That somehow, everyone sees what they see.  This thread, and many before, show that this isn't true.  For years, the conversation has gone thus:

3e Anime Critic:  Look at 3e art.  It's so anime.

Me:  What specifically do you mean?  Which art?

3e AC:  Well, no one piece, just an overall feel...

Me:  Well, ok.  When you say anime then, what are you referring to?  Do you mean body proportions?

3e AC:  No... body proportions are usually ok.

Me:  Do you mean face faults and "anime" ish facial features?

3e AC:  No, you don't see that in the art.

Me:  Do you mean the compositions then?  I mean, the action?

3e AC:  Well, no.  Most of that you can see in any Marvel or DC comic for the past twenty years.

Me:  So, what is it?

3e AC:  It's the art!  It's so obviously anime inspired!

Me:  *bangs head against wall repeatedly*

About the only reasonable criticism in this thread has been weapon sizes.  Then again, oversized weapons are hardly limited to anime.  Marvel and DC have been guilty of this for years.  As have lots of other artists like Vajello and Franzetta.  Having a big freaking sword is cool, regardless of what your ethnic background apparently.


----------



## Mad Mac

> It seems to me that the main difference between the former and the latter is the addition of action. Raistlin there looks like he's about to fall asleep, while his opponent looks less like he's summoning up some devastating effect to destroy his mortal enemy, and more like he's pulling taffy.




  Come to think of it, I don't recall many "action" shots in 2nd edition. Lots of pre/post battle posing, or just generally scoping out the background, but not a lot of pictures of characters springing into action.


----------



## AllisterH

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> Come to think of it, I don't recall many "action" shots in 2nd edition. Lots of pre/post battle posing, or just generally scoping out the background, but not a lot of pictures of characters springing into action.




Did Caldwell, Elmore, Easley or Parkinson do action shots a la WAR in 2E? Seriously, ask people the 10 greatest art pieces in 2E, I wouldn't be surprised if that list is heavily slanted to "environment pictures or "after the fact"


----------



## mhacdebhandia

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> Huh?
> 
> Can't say that I think it is important... There are a huge variety of ways things get colored in anime



Nope. Animation requires hard lines between areas of different colour, especially when it comes to shadows, nothing like the smooth gradation evident in that picture.

The face also has nothing in common with anime or manga faces, apart from large eyes - are Gelflings "anime"?


----------



## mhacdebhandia

Hell, the Gelflings' noses make them look more like anime characters in 3D, though it's offset by their larger and more-detailed mouths.


----------



## schporto

Part of me feels the opposite challenge would be met with similar silliness.  Find me an image that has NO anime influence what so ever in any 3e product.  I think just about every image could be argued has _some_ anime influence.  Even some tiny part.  The sword is too big, the armor spikes, something.
And as I'd be the judge, I'll be right.
-cpd


----------



## Dinkeldog

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Let's get this party started!
> 
> From the Eberron Campaign Setting:
> 
> From Magic of Incarnum:




I would call that American comic book art inspired, actually.  I'm not seeing the usual disproportion between body parts.


----------



## Geron Raveneye

AllisterH said:
			
		

> Did Caldwell, Elmore, Easley or Parkinson do action shots a la WAR in 2E? Seriously, ask people the 10 greatest art pieces in 2E, I wouldn't be surprised if that list is heavily slanted to "environment pictures or "after the fact"




I'm not a 100% sure about the chronology of some of them, but there you go...































Of course, they are not quite as "in your face" as the Reynolds action shots, and they are a bit lighter on screaming and shouting faces, and of course they did enough "stills" as well...but there was more than enough action in earlier editions, too.


----------



## Klaus

You've posted 6 pictures and managed to find 3 of my all-time favorites (dracolich, white dragon vs. iceboats and sword vs. staff... specially the last one).


----------



## Mad Mac

> I'm not a 100% sure about the chronology of some of them, but there you go...




  Oi, that brings me back...shows how much times have changed, though. Looking at the Fighter and Wizard designs in the first two pics, for instance...you saw designs like that all the time in the 80's and early 90's, but you just don't get as many Gandalf clones or horned helmets these days. Not to mention all the skin and impractical armor on that fighter.   

  Really I'm starting to think it's more a matter of art in general changing over the decades, anime influence or not. The last two pics are the best of the bunch, I think.


----------



## Klaus

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> Oi, that brings me back...shows how much times have changed, though. Looking at the Fighter and Wizard designs in the first two pics, for instance...you saw designs like that all the time in the 80's and early 90's, but you just don't get as many Gandalf clones or horned helmets these days. Not to mention all the skin and impractical armor on that fighter.
> 
> Really I'm starting to think it's more a matter of art in general changing over the decades, anime influence or not. The last two pics are the best of the bunch, I think.



 Gandalf-clone aside, the first picture has an amazing outfit for that female magic-user, the dracolich is superb, the fighter is in a very good plate mail and the overall composition is top-notch.


----------



## Cadfan

I asked a friend of mine who is into both comic books and anime to take a look at this thread.  I didn't tell her my opinions.

She is of the opinion that none of Wayne Reynold's art seems anime.  She labeled it comic book styled.

She couldn't give a crap about anime influences in D&D, or even D&D itself, and has no preference between the anime and western art.  I consider her objective.


----------



## Mad Mac

> Gandalf-clone aside, the first picture has an amazing outfit for that female magic-user, the dracolich is superb, the fighter is in a very good plate mail and the overall composition is top-notch.




  True. I do like the Dracolich and the Female Magic-User a lot. The Fighter is a little bland, but not bad, with nicely realistic armor. There's a lot of nice details in the background as well.  It's the old Wizard and to a lesser extent, the thief (with goofy expressions to boot) that throw off the image.


----------



## pawsplay

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Oh yeah?  Check out these eyes.  Totally anime.




This is not a fair contest, as Dr. Awkward isn't well armed to know if he has been defeated.


----------



## pawsplay

Hussar said:
			
		

> There's a difference though.  I'm not actually claiming anything.  I'm asking those who claim the anime influence on 3e and 4e art to actually back up their claim.




People have posted what they felt are good examples. You have stated they are not. But, as you say, people see what they want to say. What is the burden here? Solid evidence? Or persuading you to personally admit you were wrong?


----------



## pawsplay

Hussar said:
			
		

> As a side note, I've got no problems with saying you don't like the art.  Personally, I dislike WAR.  I find his overly detailed characters distracting.  Then again, I didn't like Todd McFarlane's Spider Man for exactly the same reason.  Too busy for my tastes.  But, that's the point.  I'm saying that I don't like it and that's fine. I'm not saying, "Oh, I don't like this, therefore it's bad and should never appear in a book".




I like anime. I do not believe 3e art has been overwhelmed by anime influences. However, I believe anyone who denies that anime and manga style art isn't an influence is simply mistaken.

Alll this "the lighting's too dark" or "that's the wrong color style" is quibbling. Was the original post to the effect of "D&D 3e art _is_ anime?" Because I don't think anyone is going to champion that argument. 

I think there is virtually no question that anime, manga, and media influence by manga and anime, have had a distinct effect on scene composition, anatomy, color, weapon size, subjects, and choice of subjects presented, particularly types of action scenes. Virtually all categories of american cartoon art have been so influenced.


----------



## pawsplay

Cadfan said:
			
		

> I asked a friend of mine who is into both comic books and anime to take a look at this thread.  I didn't tell her my opinions.
> 
> She is of the opinion that none of Wayne Reynold's art seems anime.  She labeled it comic book styled.
> 
> She couldn't give a crap about anime influences in D&D, or even D&D itself, and has no preference between the anime and western art.  I consider her objective.




I don't know her. I do know that someone who is equally intereted in western art and anime type art is not necessarily objective; just as people cannot hear their own accents, someone would be at a disadvantage in naming differences in the style when they consciously and unconsciously appreciate the similarities. In other words, I think they be more inclined to group a given piece into one or the other category based on personal criteria.


----------



## TwinBahamut

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> Nope. Animation requires hard lines between areas of different colour, especially when it comes to shadows, nothing like the smooth gradation evident in that picture.



I think you are being excessively picky about what is allowed to be called anime-style here... Certainly, in an actual anime, they don't have time to do that kind of gradiation of color. However, saying something can't be anime-style because it has that gradiation is ridiculous.

At the very least, I have seen _many_ pieces of art (concept art and character designs, especially) that are unquestionably anime-style, but have complex gradiation of color. Also, in older eras of anime (before modern computer-assisted anime production), they ofen used static images of scenes that featured complex color gradiation. Opening sequences, eye-catches, and backgrounds often featured this kind of thing.

Besides, my agreement that the gnome seemed anime influences stems more from the character archetype (young, quirky magical girl genius) than from anything else. It is a rare character type in D&D, but rather common in anime/manga.

I never claimed the face was anime style.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> I'm not a 100% sure about the chronology of some of them, but there you go...
> 
> Of course, they are not quite as "in your face" as the Reynolds action shots, and they are a bit lighter on screaming and shouting faces, and of course they did enough "stills" as well...but there was more than enough action in earlier editions, too.



These are a lot better than 99% of pre-3E D&D art I have seen, but there are so many things that are just wrong with them... The characters all seem like they are posing for a camera rather than actually fighting. Many characters are looking towards the viewer rather than what they are fighting, and very few people are actually looking where they should. In the dracolich image, everyone other than the wizard seems to be staring in horror at something outside of the image to the left, ignoring the dracolich completly (did the Tarrasque show up or something?). In the second picture, the wierd-looking horned-helmet guy is looking in the opposite direction of the guy swinging an axe at him. It's just strange...


----------



## frankthedm

Count me as a vote to make "Caves of Chaos" the new 4E PHB cover!


----------



## Geron Raveneye

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> These are a lot better than 99% of pre-3E D&D art I have seen, but there are so many things that are just wrong with them... The characters all seem like they are posing for a camera rather than actually fighting. Many characters are looking towards the viewer rather than what they are fighting, and very few people are actually looking where they should. In the dracolich image, everyone other than the wizard seems to be staring in horror at something outside of the image to the left, ignoring the dracolich completly (did the Tarrasque show up or something?). In the second picture, the wierd-looking horned-helmet guy is looking in the opposite direction of the guy swinging an axe at him. It's just strange...





I'm not sure where your impression about the "posing" comes from...the lack of "movement lines"? Those are paintings, not computer-colored and enhanced drawings, so they do have different components in their make-up.  The companions in the first picture (the Gandalf-clone is Elminster, if I got that correctly) are staring at the first-ever mentioned Spellfire wielder slugging the dracolich with eldritch fire. The "horned fighter" (I think that's supposed to be a young Sturm Brightblade) seems to be staring at the axe of his opponent, at least that's how it looks to me. And the only one who's looking at the viewer is Goldmoon in the "White Dragon attack" picture, probably because the viewer is supposed to feel like he's part of the action, not an outside viewer...like, you know, being a character in the adventure this scene is taken from.  

Just my opinion, of course...with artwork, that's always so difficult to agree on.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> Come to think of it, I don't recall many "action" shots in 2nd edition. Lots of pre/post battle posing, or just generally scoping out the background, but not a lot of pictures of characters springing into action.



Interesting that the 1st edition pic above (Palace of the Silver Princess?  I can't remember), is so action-packed that the figures look like they're about to pop their joints in several places.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

schporto said:
			
		

> Part of me feels the opposite challenge would be met with similar silliness.  Find me an image that has NO anime influence what so ever in any 3e product.  I think just about every image could be argued has _some_ anime influence.  Even some tiny part.  The sword is too big, the armor spikes, something.
> And as I'd be the judge, I'll be right.
> -cpd



Only, the burden of proof would still be on you, because you're the one making the positive claim.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> I'm not sure where your impression about the "posing" comes from...the lack of "movement lines"? Those are paintings, not computer-colored and enhanced drawings, so they do have different components in their make-up.  The companions in the first picture (the Gandalf-clone is Elminster, if I got that correctly) are staring at the first-ever mentioned Spellfire wielder slugging the dracolich with eldritch fire. The "horned fighter" (I think that's supposed to be a young Sturm Brightblade) seems to be staring at the axe of his opponent, at least that's how it looks to me. And the only one who's looking at the viewer is Goldmoon in the "White Dragon attack" picture, probably because the viewer is supposed to feel like he's part of the action, not an outside viewer...like, you know, being a character in the adventure this scene is taken from.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course...with artwork, that's always so difficult to agree on.



What I mean is that the guy in the horned helmet looks like he is in a wide-armed dancing pose (my brother compared it to a broadway musical pose), as if the bard in the background had cast _Otto's Irresistable Dance_ upon him, and he is looking of to the side, begging the unseen party mage to dispell it before the big guy's axe hit its mark. Either that, or he can't decide whether he want's to block or attack, and instead just kinda prepares to do both while letting the axe guy get a free hit in.

The dracolich picture has the fighter staring off to the left, making a "cool stance" pose, in a way which seems completely unrelated to the battle against the dracolich. He is neither helping his allies, nor interacting with the dragon. He is behind the wizard, just standing in the center of the image trying to look cool. Don't get me started on how much I hate that overdone wierd "double pointy finger" spellcasting pose...

Half the people in the ice dragon image look like they are just going to fall flat on their faces in the next few seconds.

The "minotaurs and magic spears" image has all kinds of oddities, and certainly doesn't seem like the character is fighting, but is instead just standing there.

The "sword vs. staff" just has two people in poses which are slightly off, so much so that I can't figure out what is going on between them. The intention is that it looks lik their weapons are clashing, but in reality they are just kinda posing with their weapons touching, with no indication that either one is putting any force into thier weapons.

The oriental image is particularly problematic, because it is a "ride by attack" image in which neither character is actually beginning an attack at the other. The samurai is in a classic ready posture, not actually attacking, and he isn't even geared to attack the side the ninja is on. It looks like the two are content to pose at each other while the samurai just rides by.

As a whole, the artist seems to rely too much on photographs of static poses as his models for his paintings, and merely splices together an action sequence out of a bunch of unrelated static poses. There is no real attempt to actually study or portray the motion or collision of people in actual conflict. That is pretty sloppy and lazy, which is a shame, since otherwise the artist's technical aptitude is pretty good.


----------



## Geron Raveneye

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> What I mean is that the guy in the horned helmet looks like he is in a wide-armed dancing pose (my brother compared it to a broadway musical pose), as if the bard in the background had cast _Otto's Irresistable Dance_ upon him, and he is looking of to the side, begging the unseen party mage to dispell it before the big guy's axe hit its mark. Either that, or he can't decide whether he want's to block or attack, and instead just kinda prepares to do both while letting the axe guy get a free hit in.
> 
> The dracolich picture has the fighter staring off to the left, making a "cool stance" pose, in a way which seems completely unrelated to the battle against the dracolich. He is neither helping his allies, nor interacting with the dragon. He is behind the wizard, just standing in the center of the image trying to look cool. Don't get me started on how much I hate that overdone wierd "double pointy finger" spellcasting pose...
> 
> Half the people in the ice dragon image look like they are just going to fall flat on their faces in the next few seconds.
> 
> The "minotaurs and magic spears" image has all kinds of oddities, and certainly doesn't seem like the character is fighting, but is instead just standing there.
> 
> The "sword vs. staff" just has two people in poses which are slightly off, so much so that I can't figure out what is going on between them. The intention is that it looks lik their weapons are clashing, but in reality they are just kinda posing with their weapons touching, with no indication that either one is putting any force into thier weapons.
> 
> The oriental image is particularly problematic, because it is a "ride by attack" image in which neither character is actually beginning an attack at the other. The samurai is in a classic ready posture, not actually attacking, and he isn't even geared to attack the side the ninja is on. It looks like the two are content to pose at each other while the samurai just rides by.
> 
> As a whole, the artist seems to rely too much on photographs of static poses as his models for his paintings, and merely splices together an action sequence out of a bunch of unrelated static poses. There is no real attempt to actually study or portray the motion or collision of people in actual conflict. That is pretty sloppy and lazy, which is a shame, since otherwise the artist's technical aptitude is pretty good.




Heh...you just broadhandedly rolled three different artists into one, and called them all sloppy and lazy.  Funny...I'm curious now, did, or did you not, recognize you're dealing with three different artistic styles there?

*I'm afraid I was hijacking Hussar's thread, so I apologize and stop continuing this topic here. Sorry if I derailed it too much.*


----------



## TwinBahamut

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> Heh...you just broadhandedly rolled three different artists into one, and called them all sloppy and lazy.  Funny...I'm curious now, did, or did you not, recognize you're dealing with three different artistic styles there?
> 
> *I'm afraid I was hijacking Hussar's thread, so I apologize and stop continuing this topic here. Sorry if I derailed it too much.*



Well, yes, I had assumed they were all from the same artist. They seemed similar enough in style. I am not familiar with those artists, and those pieces of art came from earlier versions of D&D than what I played.

My criticisms still stand. I guess it is just a complaint about a more widespread problem than just the flaws of a single artist's style, then. Poor choice of models/references and flawed combination of poses is an easy trap to fall prey to as an artist, after all. I've seen better artists make worse choices.

I'm also sorry for the derail. I guess I just needed a brief outlet for talking about D&D art other than the endless anime-influence debate...


----------



## Rangoric

Just something I noticed.

Just because its cell shaded does not make it anime.  I saw a few pictures above called definitly anime that are only called so because they are (sometimes partially) cell shaded.


----------



## Aus_Snow

I've yet to see any undeniable evidence of an anime influence in 3e art.

And, for the record, I am neither a fan of anime (*at all*) nor a devoted fan of 3e art (generally). I'm not so keen on the Reynolds stuff, usually. There are certain artists whose work I loath. And so on.

So, sure, it would've been kinda neat if there was evidence like that, from which I could launch/join some fully justified crusade. But no. I'm **** outta luck. Ah well.


----------



## Maggan

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> Of course, they are not quite as "in your face" as the Reynolds action shots




What brought me to D&D in the first place was Larry Elmore's classic from the Red Basic Set.

It was the "in your face attitude" of the piece that made me get all excited about D&D, and I rank it higher than any other D&D piece of art.

http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/setscans/basic12th.html

/M


----------



## Geron Raveneye

Maggan said:
			
		

> What brought me to D&D in the first place was Larry Elmore's classic from the Red Basic Set.
> 
> It was the "in your face attitude" of the piece that made me get all excited about D&D, and I rank it higher than any other D&D piece of art.
> 
> http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/setscans/basic12th.html
> 
> /M




Incidentally, I wonder if one could make a case for the gold dragon design to be influenced by anime.  

But I'm with you there on that cover...even though I don't really feel it's so much in MY face and rather in the fighter's face. In "my face" is something like this...







...where I don't feel like I'm supposed to be the hero in the picture, but rather the victim.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> ...where I don't feel like I'm supposed to be the hero in the picture, but rather the victim.




Unless that rogue rolled high initiative, chances are he'll fall to his death before he can make a point blank shot.


----------



## Klaus

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> What I mean is that the guy in the horned helmet looks like he is in a wide-armed dancing pose (my brother compared it to a broadway musical pose), as if the bard in the background had cast _Otto's Irresistable Dance_ upon him, and he is looking of to the side, begging the unseen party mage to dispell it before the big guy's axe hit its mark. Either that, or he can't decide whether he want's to block or attack, and instead just kinda prepares to do both while letting the axe guy get a free hit in.
> 
> The dracolich picture has the fighter staring off to the left, making a "cool stance" pose, in a way which seems completely unrelated to the battle against the dracolich. He is neither helping his allies, nor interacting with the dragon. He is behind the wizard, just standing in the center of the image trying to look cool. Don't get me started on how much I hate that overdone wierd "double pointy finger" spellcasting pose...
> 
> Half the people in the ice dragon image look like they are just going to fall flat on their faces in the next few seconds.
> 
> The "minotaurs and magic spears" image has all kinds of oddities, and certainly doesn't seem like the character is fighting, but is instead just standing there.
> 
> The "sword vs. staff" just has two people in poses which are slightly off, so much so that I can't figure out what is going on between them. The intention is that it looks lik their weapons are clashing, but in reality they are just kinda posing with their weapons touching, with no indication that either one is putting any force into thier weapons.
> 
> The oriental image is particularly problematic, because it is a "ride by attack" image in which neither character is actually beginning an attack at the other. The samurai is in a classic ready posture, not actually attacking, and he isn't even geared to attack the side the ninja is on. It looks like the two are content to pose at each other while the samurai just rides by.
> 
> As a whole, the artist seems to rely too much on photographs of static poses as his models for his paintings, and merely splices together an action sequence out of a bunch of unrelated static poses. There is no real attempt to actually study or portray the motion or collision of people in actual conflict. That is pretty sloppy and lazy, which is a shame, since otherwise the artist's technical aptitude is pretty good.



 Your criticisms would be valid if they weren't SO wrong.

The fighter in the first image is turned a bit more than sideways, and his eyeballs indicate that he's looking at the elf magic-user. He is "behind the wizard"? You can judge by the wizard's reaction that everyone (except the elf) were surprised by the dracolich, so the fighter was actually at the front of the party. And "overdone wierd "double pointy finger" spellcasting pose"? You do realize we have somatic components to represent exactly this kind of thing, right?

In the "ice dragon image", you do realize the people "about to fall" are on a boat skimming over ice at high speed, and that said boat was just hit by a gargantuan white dragon. The "about to fall" poses are reactions to the impact.

The "minotaurs and magic spears" (actually, a staff): standing there? Can't you see the lines of magic energy surging up from the staff and crashing down on the front minotaur's shield like a wave? And the back minotaur is warily (and angrily) circling the wizard to find an opening.

In "sword vs. staff", the snow and hair of the fighter are indicative of his movement. If you take a picture of two people clashing their weapons, you'd end up with a picture of two people with their weapons touching. It's not an animated gif.


----------



## Hussar

pawsplay said:
			
		

> People have posted what they felt are good examples. You have stated they are not. But, as you say, people see what they want to say. What is the burden here? Solid evidence? Or persuading you to personally admit you were wrong?




I would say the burden is on solid evidence.  Just posting something and saying, "Hey, this is anime inspired" without a single shred of explanation isn't evidence.  Presented with images that are convincing, such as the young gnome, will certainly get me to revise my opinion.  Simply dropping pictures and assuming that the influence is self evident is sloppy in the extreme.

I point back to the imaginary conversation I posted last page.  

Oh, and as far as finding images with no anime influence?  Not a problem:

What anime influence is there in this image from the Spell Compendium?






Or this one from Tome of Magic:


----------



## schporto

Hussar said:
			
		

> Oh, and as far as finding images with no anime influence?  Not a problem:
> 
> What anime influence is there in this image from the Spell Compendium?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this one from Tome of Magic:



First let me say that I don't care if there is or isn't anime influence.  In fact I think it's a silly argument as of course there are influences, just like there are comic book influence,s 1e influences, heck there's probably even Picaso influences...
As for those two images...
The first one the feathered head looks like the deer creature from Princess Mononoke which I consider anime so therefore is.
The second one the creature looks like it belongs in Spiritied Away or Final Fantasy.  While the artisitc style isn't, I think there's clearly influence.

And I'm sure you disagree.  And that's my point.  You are arguing about art in a way that is highly subjective.  I think your definition of anime influence (face faults, eyes too big, etc), is  different then other folks (posing, action scenes that obscure background, etc).  And because this entire discourse is so subjective I don't think there will ever be an agreement.
-cpd


----------



## wedgeski

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> As a whole, the artist seems to rely too much on photographs of static poses as his models for his paintings, and merely splices together an action sequence out of a bunch of unrelated static poses. There is no real attempt to actually study or portray the motion or collision of people in actual conflict. That is pretty sloppy and lazy, which is a shame, since otherwise the artist's technical aptitude is pretty good.



I could not be more in disagreement with you. Easley in particular is still pretty much unsurpassed when it comes to full-page fantasy action, and while I don't normally like Elmore, that Dragonlance cover remains one of his best works IMO. I remember just staring at that dracolich picture, drinking in every detail. 2ed PHB if I recall?

Edit: sorry for the hijack Hussar.


----------



## Cadfan

Can we just declare this contest over?  The conclusions are obvious.

1) D&D art isn't anime influenced in anything more than trace amounts.  It has been influenced by comic art, which has some cross pollination with japan, but that's an anime influence several times removed at best, and diluted by so many other influences that its pointless to mention.
2) Still, D&D art has changed over the years.
3) It is now more character oriented.
4) And more action oriented.
5) And scenery shots tend to be just scenery, without characters in them.
6) Some (usually older) players don't like this change.
7) So they complain about it.
8) Because they're old players, they slur the changes by calling them "anime."  This is the gamer equivalent of an old man proclaiming that "music this days isn't music, its just noise!"
9) Even though they choose to verbalize their complaints through comments that reveal them as completely out of touch, their preferences are legitimate and should be balanced against the preferences of other players.


----------



## Nifft

schporto said:
			
		

> The second one the creature looks like it belongs in Spiritied Away or Final Fantasy.  While the artisitc style isn't, I think there's clearly influence.



 Since that particular creature has a history, we don't need to disagree about influences. We can just look them up.

In this case, the critter hails from classical European mythology.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Nifft said:
			
		

> Since that particular creature has a history, we don't need to disagree about influences. We can just look them up.
> 
> In this case, the critter hails from classical European mythology.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



So, does this put the "it looks like anime to me, therefore it's anime" theory to rest?  I mean, if a creature from 16th Century European mythology makes people think it's been influenced by anime, then all definitions of what is or is not anime, based on personal opinion, are automatically trivial.  Literally anything can remind someone of anime.  My avatar becomes anime.  The board emoticons are anime.  The letter K is anime.  To steal from another thread, "If everything is anime, then nothing is."


----------



## Nifft

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> So, does this put the "it looks like anime to me, therefore it's anime" theory to rest?  I mean, if a creature from 16th Century European mythology makes people think it's been influenced by anime



 Nah. That particular case was just general ignorance regarding sources.

*schporto* is partly correct -- the creature does appear in Final Fantasy, as noted in its Wikipedia entry. However, he's incorrect in assuming that Final Fantasy was its source. Final Fantasy took this critter from European mythology -- it's a case of "anime" being influenced by Western art and history.

All this one proves is that kids need more Art History! 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Nifft said:
			
		

> Nah. That particular case was just general ignorance regarding sources.
> 
> *schporto* is partly correct -- the creature does appear in Final Fantasy, as noted in its Wikipedia entry. However, he's incorrect in assuming that Final Fantasy was its source. Final Fantasy took this critter from European mythology -- it's a case of "anime" being influenced by Western art and history.
> 
> All this one proves is that kids need more Art History!
> 
> Cheers, -- N



zOMG!  You mean that artistic influence isn't a one-way street?  This whole anime business isn't some South Park-esque Japanese plot to control the minds of our impressionable offspring?  The Japanese borrow from Western fantasy just as much if not more than Western fantasy artists borrow from anime?  Zounds!  Who would have thought such a thing could be true?!


----------



## schporto

Nifft said:
			
		

> Nah. That particular case was just general ignorance regarding sources.
> 
> *schporto* is partly correct -- the creature does appear in Final Fantasy, as noted in its Wikipedia entry. However, he's incorrect in assuming that Final Fantasy was its source. Final Fantasy took this critter from European mythology -- it's a case of "anime" being influenced by Western art and history.
> 
> All this one proves is that kids need more Art History!
> 
> Cheers, -- N




And just cuz...
1.  I did take art history.  (well 10 years ago I did.)
2.  Knew some of the image's history.  I did know it was from European myth.  Didn't know it actually did appear in Final Fantasy.
3.  It proves my point, things are interconnected.  Proving something has or doesn't have influence from X (anime, comics, movies, pop culture etc) is awkward at best.  If I've seen something then chances are it has influenced what I do.  (Unless the artist is intentionally trying to avoid such influence.)
=cpd


----------



## Nifft

schporto said:
			
		

> And just cuz...
> 1.  I did take art history.  (well 10 years ago I did.)



  Okay, if that's the case, then I don't feel bad at all taking you to task for claiming that a basic vegetile stylization somehow originated with Princess Mononoke.



			
				schporto said:
			
		

> 3.  It proves my point, things are interconnected.



 If that's the entirety of your point, I don't think you can be proven wrong.

But it has nothing to do with D&D turning into anime, or rather, no more than it has to do with anime turning into D&D.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## ehren37

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> So, does this put the "it looks like anime to me, therefore it's anime" theory to rest?  I mean, if a creature from 16th Century European mythology makes people think it's been influenced by anime, then all definitions of what is or is not anime, based on personal opinion, are automatically trivial.  Literally anything can remind someone of anime.  My avatar becomes anime.  The board emoticons are anime.  The letter K is anime.  To steal from another thread, "If everything is anime, then nothing is."





I dunno... clearly Hiro traveled back in time and polluted western art with anime influence before anime was invented!


----------



## WizarDru

schporto said:
			
		

> The first one the feathered head looks like the deer creature from Princess Mononoke which I consider anime so therefore is.




Funny, I would attributed it more to looking like the Green Man.










I'm not really seeing the resemblance to Daidarabocci (the nature god with the body of a deer and face of a baboon), myself:


----------



## Scribble

Others have said it already, but I think there aren't any "direct" anime (or manga) illustrations in the game. Influenced maybe, but not direct. 

Artists draw (no pun intended) upon the works of other artists. They learn from, emulate, and modify other styles to form their own. Most artists (whether it be painting, drawing, writing, filming, photography, etc...) start by emulatijg if not directly copying their favorites until they find a style of their own.

It (in my opinion at least) would be silly to say that it isn't influenced at least in part by the techniques. Just like it would be silly to say it's not influenced by the techniques of traditional comic illustration. 

Just like you can see influences of German Expressionism in a film that isn't German Expressionism, or  Noir in a  film that isn't really Noir, you can see the influences in the current artwork.

Those who like manga/anime will say it's more american comic booky and those who don't like anime/manga will say it's too animey... It's just that it's its own style (influenced as all art is), blended by the artist.


That said, I agree with the poster  (forgive me for forgetting the name) who said the issue is that it's not evocative enough anymore. That's MY issue with it at least. I'm not going to say the art is bad. It's not. It's well done. It's just not usually my cup of tea. 

I prefer realistic art to cartoon style. I also prefer scenes as opposed to illustrations. Maybe it's for the same reason I tend to like the book better then the movie version. What I see in my own head far outdoes what I'm shown by someone else. (Not that they're bad, just that I agree with my own ideas more then theirs...)

When I see an illustration I tend to think "Eh... That's not how I see it."

When I see a scene, I tend to start imagining a story behind that scene, and it makes me want to tell that story. 

Maybe that's why I tend to like DMing better then being a player? 

I wonder what would happen if they kept the comic illustrations in the players books, but filled the DM's guide with "realistic" scenes?


----------



## AllisterH

Scribble said:
			
		

> II wonder what would happen if they kept the comic illustrations in the players books, but filled the DM's guide with "realistic" scenes?




You know, that's a really interesting idea. If the evocative scene shots are in the DM, they wouldn't lose their appeal since you would as a player only see them when the DM shows them to you.

Everyone wins that way...


----------



## D.Shaffer

What amuses me is that we get the exact same sort of comment on the Battletech forums.  Any time a new mech design shows up that a critic doesnt like, the phrase 'It looks to much like a Gundam' inevitably pops up.  Never mind they look nothing like any Gundam or mobile suit, and very often dont even share many of the common traits of anime mecha to begin with, something that they'll usually admit when you press them on that.  When someone says a mech looks 'Too Gundam-ish', or art looks to 'Anime', it now automatically translates into "I dont like it, but rather then leave it at that, I'll try to rationalise it"

To anyone who reads Japanese boards...do Japanese artists ever get complaints that their work is 'too American'?


----------



## Scribble

D.Shaffer said:
			
		

> What amuses me is that we get the exact same sort of comment on the Battletech forums.  Any time a new mech design shows up that a critic doesnt like, the phrase 'It looks to much like a Gundam' inevitably pops up.  Never mind they look nothing like any Gundam or mobile suit, and very often dont even share many of the common traits of anime mecha to begin with, something that they'll usually admit when you press them on that.  When someone says a mech looks 'Too Gundam-ish', or art looks to 'Anime', it now automatically translates into "I dont like it, but rather then leave it at that, I'll try to rationalise it"
> 
> To anyone who reads Japanese boards...do Japanese artists ever get complaints that their work is 'too American'?




Battletech still exists?


----------



## Woas

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Daidarabocci (the nature god with the body of a deer and face of a baboon), myself:










ANIME!!!!


----------



## D.Shaffer

Scribble said:
			
		

> Battletech still exists?



Yuppers.  Its even got new stuff being published and everything.  
www.classicbattletech.com

To make this not COMPLETELY off topic, they just had their own version of '4th edition' released last year in the form of a new, combined (and rewritten), rulebook. If I ever get the chance, I should show some of the similar concepts that received before it showed up.  (Nevermind the MWA commentary)


----------



## Guild Goodknife

While i love Wayne Reynolds action scenes and monster illustrations, i second the motion that it would be totally awesome to have a something like the "Caves of Chaos" for the 4th Ed. Cover! 





A few high quality pieces can do so much for setting tone and atmosphere. Having something like this on the cover of one of the core books would rock!


----------



## Faraer

Scribble said:
			
		

> It (in my opinion at least) would be silly to say that it isn't influenced at least in part by the techniques. Just like it would be silly to say it's not influenced by the techniques of traditional comic illustration.



I agree. It's just a fact that Western and Eastern comic art and book illustration have influenced each other through the last 60 years.


----------



## jasin

I was browsing the Paizo website and found this picture:

http://paizo.com/image/content/GameMasteryModules/7.-DariusFinch.jpg

A Google Image Search for "paizo" includes this on the first page:

http://www.eva-widermann.de/i/151.jpg

I've yet to see anything connected with 4th edition that looks to me as strongly influenced by anime as these two. I think this is particularly interesting since there seem to be a number of people who hope for Paizo to become a sort of rallying point of "old school D&D" (for values of "old school D&D" equal to "3.x D&D" I suppose).

Now, this is in no way a dig at Paizo or the two images. I love 'em (both Paizo and the images).  It's just that I wonder if the people bothered about anime influences in 4E are really bothered by anime influences, or if that's just an expression of a more general and undefinable dislike for 4E.


----------



## Klaus

wedgeski said:
			
		

> I could not be more in disagreement with you. Easley in particular is still pretty much unsurpassed when it comes to full-page fantasy action, and while I don't normally like Elmore, that Dragonlance cover remains one of his best works IMO. I remember just staring at that dracolich picture, drinking in every detail. 2ed PHB if I recall?
> 
> Edit: sorry for the hijack Hussar.



 The Dracolich was included as one of the binder separators in the 2e Monstrous Manual.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Cadfan said:
			
		

> Can we just declare this contest over?  The conclusions are obvious.
> 
> 1) D&D art isn't anime influenced in anything more than trace amounts.  It has been influenced by comic art, which has some cross pollination with japan, but that's an anime influence several times removed at best, and diluted by so many other influences that its pointless to mention.
> 2) Still, D&D art has changed over the years.
> 3) It is now more character oriented.
> 4) And more action oriented.
> 5) And scenery shots tend to be just scenery, without characters in them.
> 6) Some (usually older) players don't like this change.
> 7) So they complain about it.
> 8) Because they're old players, they slur the changes by calling them "anime."  This is the gamer equivalent of an old man proclaiming that "music this days isn't music, its just noise!"
> 9) Even though they choose to verbalize their complaints through comments that reveal them as completely out of touch, their preferences are legitimate and should be balanced against the preferences of other players.



Yep, I agree completely.

Certainly, D&D art has changed a lot over the years. I never even played 2E, yet I can tell pre-2E art from 3E art. There is certainly a difference. Many people don't like that change.

Not liking the change, or not liking D&D art, is perfectly fine. I certainly don't like 3E art, and all my arguing that 3E art is not anime-influenced is _never_ intended to be a defense of bad 3E art. Actually, I think I have said before that I would like to see _more_ anime influence in D&D art.

The problem here is that people who don't understand anime are saying "anime=bad", and using it as an insult against something which has no clear anime influence. And that is making anime fans like me angry.

We have no problem with people making all the valid complaints about 3E art. We just don't want people to improperly use the word "anime" in the process.


----------



## Faraer

wedgeski said:
			
		

> I remember just staring at that dracolich picture, drinking in every detail. 2ed PHB if I recall?



It's the cover to Ed Greenwood's first novel _Spellfire_, showing Rauglothgor's lair in the Thunder Peaks, with (foreground, left to right) Shandril Shessair, Florin Falconhand, Narm Tamaraith, and Elminster of Shadowdale.


----------



## Dragonbait

I agree with *TwinBahamut * and *Cadfan*



			
				TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> The problem here is that people who don't understand anime are saying "anime=bad", and using it as an insult against something which has no clear anime influence. And that is making anime fans like me angry.
> 
> We have no problem with people making all the valid complaints about 3E art. We just don't want people to improperly use the word "anime" in the process.




I was going to say something very similar to this.

Hm.. Since according to this thread, anime=bad then the interior art in the 1st ed AD&D PH, MM1, and DMG and the crayon-like drawings in the revised 2ed PH and DMG were anime influenced!


----------



## Seeten

I have a strong dislike of anime art, and a real love for Wayne A Reynolds art.

So there.?


----------



## Numion

Very interesting thread. 

I should make a similar thread on the popular 3E detractors claim that if you fiddle with / houserule 3E rules, it all comes apart (balancewise, that is). Both this anime claim and that one always seem to stop short of actual proof being presented.


----------



## Klaus

Faraer said:
			
		

> It's the cover to Ed Greenwood's first novel _Spellfire_, showing Rauglothgor's lair in the Thunder Peaks, with (foreground, left to right) Shandril Shessair, Florin Falconhand, Narm Tamaraith, and Elminster of Shadowdale.



 What type of dragon was the dracolich, originally?

That question bugged me for about 20 years!


----------



## Faraer

Male red great wyrm.


----------



## Dacileva

Slightly off-topic, but: all I ask is that they never again give D&D art assignments involving non-humans to one of the artists incapable of *drawing* non-humans.  Elves aren't just humans with pointy ears.  Halflings aren't just humans with other stuff around them drawn to a larger scale.  Easley and Elmore are both, regardless of their other technical talents, guilty of this.


----------



## hong

Conclusion: the people who say that things in D&D remind them of anime have clearly been watching too much anime.


----------



## SlagMortar

I don't actually care that much about the actual direction of the art of D&D, but I did enjoy reading this thread.  Thanks for the constructive art history comments from many posters.

I'm compiling three pictures where there was at least some agreement on anime (or manga since Hussar said he uses the terms interchangably) influences:
In this post, Hussar agrees that this is in fact anime influenced.

This had several other posters agree it was manga influenced in their opinion.  Also, Gundark claims to have evidence that the artist himself claims Japanese art influence.

This had several other posters comment that it was anime influenced in their opinion.  My argument:  If I had drawn this picture and then said to you, "Look at my cool picture!  I've been drawing a lot of anime and wanted to do something different that was not in any way influenced by anime," would you say I had accomplished that?

Special thanks to frankthedm, firelance, and Gundark.


----------



## Lackhand

> If I had drawn this picture and then said to you, "Look at my cool picture! I've been drawing a lot of anime and wanted to do something different that was not in any way influenced by anime," would you say I had accomplished that?




I wouldn't. But I also wouldn't claim that it *was* influenced by anime; I'm not sure that I see anime as a taint, one drop of which sullies a picture forevermore. There can be a middle ground where, sure, it reminds one of anime...
... or a wizard with Mirror Image up.

YMMV


----------



## Hussar

The problem is, the first one is probably closer to Hildebrant than anime.  I did think it might have possibilities, but, I was corrected later.

The third one, I just don't see it.  Why do you say this one looks anime inspired.  I know it got posted a couple of times, but, I just don't see it.  I've seen shots of Wolverine that look pretty much exactly like that.  Is it because of the multiple images?  Is that even a common element in anime?


----------



## AllisterH

Hussar said:
			
		

> The third one, I just don't see it.  Why do you say this one looks anime inspired.  I know it got posted a couple of times, but, I just don't see it.  I've seen shots of Wolverine that look pretty much exactly like that.  Is it because of the multiple images?  Is that even a common element in anime?




The after-image effect?

In any shounen fight anime/manga, yeah, I'd say it is more common in manga to show this "speed kills" type of image. Dragonball made this image somewhat of a "staple" in that type of anime.

That said, the first time I ever saw an image like that was pre-Dragonball and was actually in the FLASH comic. It's just that in N.America, more people have read/seen a fight manga/anime like Dragonball than an American comic that uses this (Spiderman uses this a lot as well).

That's definitely what I'd call a 3E image as that type of move would be considered "Too cartoony/superhero" in 1E/2E.


----------



## Fobok

SlagMortar said:
			
		

> This had several other posters comment that it was anime influenced in their opinion.




Anybody who's read a Flash (or related) comic would think differently, I think. 

For example, the cover of Impulse #81:


----------



## wedgeski

Klaus said:
			
		

> The Dracolich was included as one of the binder separators in the 2e Monstrous Manual.



Ah-ha! Yes, that was it. One of the many reasons why I seem to rate that product higher than most other people.


----------



## Klaus

SlagMortar said:
			
		

> I don't actually care that much about the actual direction of the art of D&D, but I did enjoy reading this thread.  Thanks for the constructive art history comments from many posters.
> 
> I'm compiling three pictures where there was at least some agreement on anime (or manga since Hussar said he uses the terms interchangably) influences:
> In this post, Hussar agrees that this is in fact anime influenced.
> 
> This had several other posters agree it was manga influenced in their opinion.  Also, Gundark claims to have evidence that the artist himself claims Japanese art influence.
> 
> This had several other posters comment that it was anime influenced in their opinion.  My argument:  If I had drawn this picture and then said to you, "Look at my cool picture!  I've been drawing a lot of anime and wanted to do something different that was not in any way influenced by anime," would you say I had accomplished that?
> 
> Special thanks to frankthedm, firelance, and Gundark.



 The "several images in a single panel" technique was actually invented by Carmine Infantino to represent the superspeed of WWII superhero Johnny Quick: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Quick_(Johnny_Chambers)


----------



## Gwathlas

Hussar said:
			
		

> Ok, since I cannot give donuts, I have a new reward.
> 
> To anyone who can find three examples of anime art from any WOTC Dungeons and Dragons book, I will add the following to my sig for a year:
> 
> ____________ is the greatest god(dess) of gaming and has proven me to be the biggest schmuck of the internet.  They have defeated my anime challenge and I hereby declare that 3e art is fully inspired by anime.
> 
> How's that?
> 
> So, to anyone, please, let's see it.
> 
> If, however, after one month, no one can find three examples, then all who take the challenge shall SHUT THE **** UP about anime in 3e art forevermore.
> 
> So, are you hard enough?




Some of the art posted after your thread look very anime. But it the art is not anime enough it sounds like the new rules will japanime-naruto-ki-jitsu-the force/starwars and does not fit my ideas of Sword and Sorcery.  All this talk of powers and book of nine sword being a preview says it all.  Fighters will make flaming swords based on some martial power/stance.  It just doesn't work for me.  I started off with Conan and LOTR and enjoy my Fighter being a heroic sword swinger.  Save your stances and powers for anime/orintal flavored games. Too bad they didn't put in an alternate combat section for those of us that perfer western mythos.  Hey you greedy buggers at wotc there's an idea publish one set of rules for the anime-bubblegum set and and a second set of rules for those who perfer a western style S&S.   Is this game D&D? Even less so they T&T or RuneQuest.


----------



## Guild Goodknife

ehren37 said:
			
		

>




Actually, the creatures with the wierd hair remind me of some 70's/80's manga characters.   Can't find any pics at the moment, but does someone see what i mean?


----------



## Benben

Fobok said:
			
		

> Anybody who's read a Flash (or related) comic would think differently, I think.
> 
> For example, the cover of Impulse #81:




Yes for a very high powered super hero.  The multiple hits at once is a more common visual technique for lower powered characters in Asian storytelling.  Chinese martial arts comics do this a lot.

However Nightcrawler from the X-Men did that sort of thing all the time during the 80s.


----------



## Gentlegamer

ehren37 said:
			
		

> Take this guy... I'd say he's clearly derivative of your typical anime villain, white hair, uber cool sword, impractical armor and all. Were it in a 3rd edition product, you knwo someone would have posted it by now.



That artist is an actual comic book artist.


----------



## darkseraphim

Well, I believe the contest to be impossible to win, due to the predisposition and inherent bias of the OP.

That being said, this is one of the best discussions of the topic I’ve seen.

For me personally however the “anime” feel in 3E+ is not just about the art, but also the dynamics of the action.  It goes beyond morphology and directly into play mechanics.

I would give the following as some examples in the change of flavor:
* The naming of special non-spell powers
* Super-heroic combat effects, such as hitting multiple opponents with the same blow
* The move away from anthropomorphic characters that have a folklore precedent
* The limitation of character death, the inclusion of balanced encounters vs. player estimation of danger
* The focus on high-level play (and, as such, “superpowers”) over the traditional sweet spot of levels 4-9
* The rapidity of leveling (akin to an RPG videogame)
* Character customization moving the focus to the “uniquely stylized dramatic loner,”  rather than the archetype

On the art, it’s a mixed bag.  There are some examples that are, IMO, inarguably, absolutely anime-inspired.  But I’m old enough to remember the progress of Japanese influence on Western fantasy.  In the 70s, it was Godzilla and Shogun Warriors creeping into the comics; today, it’s much more widespread.

I feel I must qualify this by saying that a lot of 1E art just did not agree with me.  I feel that Trampier was the best at capturing the feel of 1E for me personally, with his plausibly armed and equipped characters facing mortal danger, and consistently under-stylized monsters.  For BECMI, I felt the more heroic and “clean” approach was exemplified by Elmore.

All of this just goes to show that it’s strictly a matter of opinion; it’s fine to agree with others’ insight or to get angry at their insistent dissent, but to think that you can change anyone’s mind with your own personal experience … that’s when things tend to tricky.  Interesting, yes, but tricky and sometimes uncivil.


----------



## WizarDru

darkseraphim said:
			
		

> * The naming of special non-spell powers
> * Super-heroic combat effects, such as hitting multiple opponents with the same blow
> * The move away from anthropomorphic characters that have a folklore precedent
> * The limitation of character death, the inclusion of balanced encounters vs. player estimation of danger
> * The focus on high-level play (and, as such, “superpowers”) over the traditional sweet spot of levels 4-9
> * The rapidity of leveling (akin to an RPG videogame)
> * Character customization moving the focus to the “uniquely stylized dramatic loner,”  rather than the archetype




I'm not sure I follow you, here.  GURPS and HERO had most of these things by 1986.  Even AD&D had NWPs, skills and lots of special abilities with fanciful names.  The introduction of feats certainly has stripped that out, but 3e absorbed a lot of this from influences that have little to do with anime.  The issue of character death and balance has been debated almost as long as the game has been in play, as has the 'sweet spot' discussion.  In fact, WotC's research showed that most people never played the higher levels because they never managed to reach them before a game broke up...it was a very conscious decision to speed up the leveling mechanic to make that material more accessible to larger swaths of people.  Anime really had no influence at all with it.  The only shift I see away from a 'folklore precedent' is the move away from obvious cribbing of published works of fantasy, particularly Tolkien (remember when the ranger had the ability to use scrying devices?).

As to the video game idea...well, read my .sig.  Video games GOT the idea of level advancement FROM D&D, not the other way around. 



			
				darkseraphim said:
			
		

> But I’m old enough to remember the progress of Japanese influence on Western fantasy.  In the 70s, it was Godzilla and Shogun Warriors creeping into the comics; today, it’s much more widespread.




Yeah, I remember those comics, too.  They ran from 1979-1980 for 20 issues in support of Mattel's toy line.  They were a toy license (a fun one), but if you look at them, they were VERY western comics.  They looked very different from the original material from which they were cribbed.  I mean, the Shogun Warriors fought alongside the Avengers and Fantastic Four, and Godzilla fought a supervillian called Dr. Demonicus.  
Compare THIS with  THIS.  Like the Marvel Transformers comics that would follow a few years later, they were almost a rejection of the anime style.  That would change later, of course....but Godzilla and Shogun Warriors are two really great examples of anime NOT influencing American comics and art.  Shogun Warriors had no more influence on American comic art than Rom: Spaceknight.


----------



## Nifft

Gwathlas said:
			
		

> Some of the art posted after your thread look very anime. But it the art is not anime enough it sounds like the new rules will japanime-naruto-ki-jitsu-the force/starwars and does not fit my ideas of Sword and Sorcery.



 Parse error.

Aborting, -- N


----------



## Deekin

I founded teh Anime?! What do I winz?

(This is the closest thing I've seen to manga in a D&D book)


----------



## Nifft

Deekin said:
			
		

> I founded teh Anime?! What do I winz?
> 
> (This is the closest thing I've seen to manga in a D&D book)



 How is this teh anime?
- Eyes look normal
- It has a nose
- No visible "face faults"
- Head in proportion to body

Seriously, what stylistic elements are you talking about?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## darkseraphim

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I follow you, here.  (snip)




Sure, I’ll try to clarify and keep it anime-related if I can.  Keeping in mind of course that anime is a highly kinetic style and it’s as much about action as it is about art.  

I do recall playing GURPS (and Man vs. Man?) ~1985-1987, and seeing how everything was individually quantified; I actually found it quite entertaining for Autoduel and Horror.  But that was a highly tactical play style that I didn’t associate with D&D.  In fact by that time I was already clarifying what “fit” in a pulp/classic RPG and what didn’t; GURPS IMO didn’t fit.  HERO seemed like a lot of fun but again, better for running high-powered campaigns.

I don’t recall Non-Weapon Proficiencies being put in the game until 1986ish with the Dungeoneer’s Survival Guide and Oriental Adventures.  More specifically, however, I was referring to epic feats and such that remind me less of D&D and more of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

I’m familiar with the leveling speed issue, as I got stuck in some of the ~1999 debates on the issue.  I still feel that leveling should be slowed, to encourage careful play, increase in player skill (familiarity with party synergy and class growth over time) and the sense of danger.  I personally feel that this could be best facilitated by encouraging campaign start-ups at various levels (1, 5, 10, 15) as opposed to hyper 1-20, but that’s another discussion.

On the races, I feel that folklore-based races create a subconscious baseline of what is fantastical and what is not in the mind of a new player.  I can see exotic races (warforged, half-fiend, what-have-you) appealing to player choice, but also diminishing the sense of wonder associated with coming into contact with the uncommon.

On to the art, as opposed to the style:

My reference to Godzilla and Shogun was actually in line with yours, in that I was saying that in the 70s, Western art tended to assimilate Japanese influence and make it a workable integrated component.  It’s mostly in the post-FFVII / Ghost in the Shell age that we’re finding that lots of Western art is seeking not to assimilate Japanese style, but rather to emulate it.

But a very good post and I’m appreciative that even if you didn’t follow my intent, you knew what I was referring to.


----------



## Klaus

Nifft said:
			
		

> How is this teh anime?
> - Eyes look normal
> - It has a nose
> - No visible "face faults"
> - Head in proportion to body
> 
> Seriously, what stylistic elements are you talking about?
> 
> Cheers, -- N



 - The eyes are too slanted, too wide and too close to each other to be considered "normal". Those are stylized eyes. Not every manga/anime character has the same Sakura Card Captor eyes.

- Not every manga/anime character is noseless. And it's barely an indication of a very small nose.

- Face Faults? Saint Seya, Battleship Yamato and others doesn't use Face Faults. Is it nor anime?

- Yes... if the normal proportion is 10 heads tall. Plus the head is shaped like an upside-down teardrop, with a rounded top and a pointy chin, which is a very common technique in manga/anime.

- The weapon is straight out of an anime someone posted a while ago. And I do mean "straight out".

- Heavily stylized posing is also very common in anime/manga. All that is missing is the enemy in the background standing still for a moment before falling to the ground, dead. And that specific pose, with one foot up, is very martial-arts.


----------



## Nifft

Klaus said:
			
		

> - The eyes are too slanted, too wide and too close to each other to be considered "normal". Those are stylized eyes. Not every manga/anime character has the same Sakura Card Captor eyes.



 I'll defer to you on the eyes, since you draw way more of them. 



			
				Klaus said:
			
		

> - Not every manga/anime character is noseless. And it's barely an indication of a very small nose.
> 
> - Face Faults? Saint Seya, Battleship Yamato and others doesn't use Face Faults. Is it nor anime?



 Aww, c'mon. Don't make me hit your false binary straw man with my +4 bat of graded set membership category theory.

I'm asking what specifically calls out "anime", and listing some criteria. Face faults would be sufficient IMHO, but they are not necessary.



			
				Klaus said:
			
		

> - Yes... if the normal proportion is 10 heads tall. Plus the head is shaped like an upside-down teardrop, with a rounded top and a pointy chin, which is a very common technique in manga/anime.



 I can't see a chin in that picture. I don't know how you're able to tell the exact vertical extent of the head. Is it really out of proportion?



			
				Klaus said:
			
		

> - The weapon is straight out of an anime someone posted a while ago. And I do mean "straight out".
> 
> - Heavily stylized posing is also very common in anime/manga. All that is missing is the enemy in the background standing still for a moment before falling to the ground, dead. And that specific pose, with one foot up, is very martial-arts.



 The weapon is very silly indeed. Do you have a link to the anime picture?

Martial arts? Yes. Agree 100% it's very much a martial arts pose. But that's Asian, rather than Anime, right?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Zamkaizer

Klaus said:
			
		

> - The eyes are too slanted, too wide and too close to each other to be considered "normal". Those are stylized eyes. Not every manga/anime character has the same Sakura Card Captor eyes.
> 
> - The weapon is straight out of an anime someone posted a while ago. And I do mean "straight out".




I could potentially counter both of these points by saying that the image depicts a Valenar Elf from Eberron. So, the eyes are explainable by it's race, and the double scimitar is explained by it's nationality.

EDIT: However, I agree that it does resemble anime.

Anyway, I love Vinod Rams' work, but many of his illustrations show clear Japanese influence.






"Tieflings" from Races of Faerun


----------



## Sabathius42

Nifft said:
			
		

> How is this teh anime?
> - Eyes look normal
> - It has a nose
> - No visible "face faults"
> - Head in proportion to body
> 
> Seriously, what stylistic elements are you talking about?
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Would you say this is anime?  It has all 4 features you just quoted as indicating its NOT anime.  Yet I took it from an anime series website.

DS


----------



## Nifft

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> Would you say this is anime?  It has all 4 features you just quoted as indicating its NOT anime.  Yet I took it from an anime series website.



 The eyes in your picture are clearly bigger than the mouth. Maybe that's it -- if I could see the mouth in the martial artist picture, it might look "anime".

With your picture, the flat coloring is also an indicator, IMHO.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Sabathius42

Nifft said:
			
		

> The eyes in your picture are clearly bigger than the mouth. Maybe that's it -- if I could see the mouth in the martial artist picture, it might look "anime".
> 
> With your picture, the flat coloring is also an indicator, IMHO.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




My picture is an animation cell, not a fully colored illustration.  If you find any animation cell coloring jobs in a WoTC book thats a sign the art department is running low on budget.

INRE eyes:  The eyes on the WoTC drawing are so large they are wrapping around to what SHOULD be the side of the characters head.  I'd say its fairly certain thats not "normal proportion".

DS


----------



## Scribble

Nifft said:
			
		

> I can't see a chin in that picture. I don't know how you're able to tell the exact vertical extent of the head. Is it really out of proportion?




You can see the shape of the head through the clothing. Just because you can't see it 100% doesn't mean you can't get the idea of the shape. Otherwise the artist failed to do clothing properly... 

Also I think he meant proportion of the body. It's 10 heads high. Artists tend to measure body length in "heads." Your body should be x times the length of th head.

Manga and Anime tend to use a higher head to body ratio... So taller lankier looking dudes and dudettes.



> Martial arts? Yes. Agree 100% it's very much a martial arts pose. But that's Asian, rather than Anime, right?




I think it's more in the heavily stylized pose. The ones that look like they're in this super crazy movement pose that seems to slightly defy gravity and physics, serving to emphasize the awesome of the character.

To me, you can also add to that the sharpness of the character's body. Anime (at least to my admitedly untrained eye) eems to emphasize sharpness and angles rather then curves. (especially with the men.)

Again, though, I wouldn't call anything in D&D secifically Anime. Just that the artists are influnced by it. (as well as western comic art.)


----------



## Nifft

Scribble said:
			
		

> You can see the shape of the head through the clothing. Just because you can't see it 100% doesn't mean you can't get the idea of the shape. Otherwise the artist failed to do clothing properly...



 I can see an indication of a chin, but I can't see the shape of the chin. Its pointyness in particular.



			
				Scribble said:
			
		

> Also I think he meant proportion of the body. It's 10 heads high. Artists tend to measure body length in "heads." Your body should be x times the length of th head.
> 
> Manga and Anime tend to use a higher head to body ratio... So taller lankier looking dudes and dudettes.



 Wait, really? I thought the classic anime head was disproportionately large relative to the body.

So how many heads is a normal body length?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Scribble

Nifft said:
			
		

> I can see an indication of a chin, but I can't see the shape of the chin. Its pointyness in particular.
> 
> Wait, really? I thought the classic anime head was disproportionately large relative to the body.
> 
> So how many heads is a normal body length?
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Depends on what you're going for really. Having a longer character isn't Strichtly Manga... They just tend to emphasize it, specially in the legs. Which I think is why they always tend to have very pronounced "stances."

*incidentally I haven't actually measured that pic myself to see the proportions... I'm just going at his word that it is 10 heads.

Also to actually answer your question  anything from 7-8ish is generally advised? But then again it changes depejnding on what you want your dude to look like...


----------



## Raven Crowking

Nifft said:
			
		

> Wait, really? I thought the classic anime head was disproportionately large relative to the body.





Depends on the character.  Anime uses both long & lanky and short & childlike.  Occasionally, it even uses normal proportions.


RC


----------



## Gundark

Zamkaizer said:
			
		

> "Tieflings" from Races of Faerun



Definetly manga influence there...especially the guy on the left.


----------



## TwinBahamut

darkseraphim said:
			
		

> I would give the following as some examples in the change of flavor:
> * The naming of special non-spell powers



So, it is okay to name spells, but not to name non-spells? Either way, the big "culprit" here is martial arts, which is hardly exclusive to anime, and is probably far more important in Hong Kong kung fu movies...


> * Super-heroic combat effects, such as hitting multiple opponents with the same blow



Huh? Where is this in 4E? Nothing confirmed yet... Besdies, look above to "Hong Kong kung fu flick".


> * The move away from anthropomorphic characters that have a folklore precedent



Wait, what? Either this is a gnome complaint, or a completley self-contradictory statement. Anime has more emphasis on anthropomorphic creatures taken from folklore than D&D does (look up the literary/mythical origins of Son Goku, Kitsune, and Nekomata if you disbelieve me). Besides, all signs point towards a greater influence of follore on 4E D&D. Also, folklore tends to have more of the "fighters are powerful" stuff you complain about above than even anime, so what is the source of your complaint?


> * The limitation of character death, the inclusion of balanced encounters vs. player estimation of danger



I think you actually forgot you were supposed to be talking about anime here... How on earth does this relate to anime?


> * The focus on high-level play (and, as such, “superpowers”) over the traditional sweet spot of levels 4-9



Also, how on earth does this relate at all to anime?


> * The rapidity of leveling (akin to an RPG videogame)



Again, how does this relate to anime? And how does rapidity of levelling equte to videogames anyway? It is comparing appels to oranges, since a level means completely different things in D&D and the average videogame RPG.


> * Character customization moving the focus to the “uniquely stylized dramatic loner,”  rather than the archetype



Prove it. I don't buy this claim at all. If anything, the new class roles push it towards teamwork and archetypes even further. Besides, "dramatic loners" are about as common in anime as they are anywhere else (certainly no more common than in old westerns), and most anime is fueled by excessive doses of "the power of love and friendship!!!" anyways.

At this point, I have to conclude that your idea of "anime" means "differences between 3E and 4E that I don't like". I can't say that this is a remotely useful definition. At least, it is a definition that I can't agree with or relate to.

Ok, on to the pictures.

I don't think the Valenar elf picture is very anime inspired. The artist is the same comic-group that has shown up earlier in this thread, and I say it is not an anime style. The weapon is official Eberron, and the character and pose is a classic asian martial artist depiction, which is the deliberate image the artist is striving for. The eyes and face don't lean one way or the other. If you ask me, it is like saying Ember from the PHB is too anime because she is a monk... Depiction of an asian themed character is not the same thing as anime.

On the other hand, I really see the influence of anime in the Vinod Rams tiefling picture. Especially in the crazy guy. The particular manic look in his eyes, the way his eyes are seen through the hair falling over his face, his pose, and his silver hair all scream out "anime" to me. The other guy also has a classic anime look to him. I like this picture.


----------



## Klaus

Nifft said:
			
		

> I can see an indication of a chin, but I can't see the shape of the chin. Its pointyness in particular.
> 
> Wait, really? I thought the classic anime head was disproportionately large relative to the body.
> 
> So how many heads is a normal body length?
> 
> Cheers, -- N



 Real-world human adults tend to be about 6-heads tall. Comic book characters often have heroic proportions, which boost them to about 8 heads in height.

I can't find the double scimitar thread now. It was in General, and I posted a Full Metal Alchemist picture there as well.

EDIT: A-HA!!!! Here it is! It was in the "Double weapons in 4e" thread here in the 4e forum. Straight out of Chrono Cross:


----------



## Nifft

Klaus said:
			
		

> EDIT: A-HA!!!! Here it is! It was in the "Double weapons in 4e" thread here in the 4e forum. Straight out of Chrono Cross:



 Shows my ignorance. I thought that was a video game. 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## TwinBahamut

Like Nifft said, Chrono Cross is a videogame, not an anime. Videogames have a certain tradition of really wierd weapons, which is completely independant of anime influences (since it shows up in games that have no anime influence at all). Chrono Cross's art style is influenced by anime, but that doesn't mean Serge's Swallow is common in anime. Rather, it is the only double-sword outide of D&D or the LotR movies that I have ever seen.


----------



## FireLance

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> Rather, it is the only double-sword outide of D&D or the LotR movies that I have ever seen.



So, you're one of those people who believe that there are only three Star Wars movies, right?


----------



## Numion

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> it is the only double-sword outide of D&D or the LotR movies that I have ever seen.




Double-sword in LotR movies? Where?


----------



## Klaus

Nifft said:
			
		

> Shows my ignorance. I thought that was a video game.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



 I wouldn't know, but the art direction of Chrono Cross is anime.


----------



## Baby Samurai

Numion said:
			
		

> Double-sword in LotR movies? Where?




I think maybe the elf warriors at the beginning of the first film (fight against Sauron).

But I go by the book, so no, I really can't recall any double weapons in LotR.


----------



## Psion

Exen Trik said:
			
		

> Sorry, but all I see for influence is american comic books. :\




I think the pose in the second panel of fist pic is a bit anime. But the rest... yeah.


----------



## Numion

Baby Samurai said:
			
		

> I think maybe the elf warriors at the beginning of the first film (fight against Sauron).




That's what I thought when I first saw it. However, by pausing the movie it's clear that they are just one-bladed swords. The long hilts and the way they strike makes it seem like a double-sword, or that's my recollection when I looked into it.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

jasin said:
			
		

> I was browsing the Paizo website and found this picture:
> 
> http://paizo.com/image/content/GameMasteryModules/7.-DariusFinch.jpg



Hey, it's Guybrush Threepwood!


----------



## Klaus

Numion said:
			
		

> That's what I thought when I first saw it. However, by pausing the movie it's clear that they are just one-bladed swords. The long hilts and the way they strike makes it seem like a double-sword, or that's my recollection when I looked into it.



 Having seen the most excelent action figures for the elf prologue warriors, I can tell you that those aren't two-bladed weapons, but rather one-bladed swords with very long handles. They're actually closer to glaives than swords.


----------



## Baby Samurai

Numion said:
			
		

> That's what I thought when I first saw it. However, by pausing the movie it's clear that they are just one-bladed swords. The long hilts and the way they strike makes it seem like a double-sword, or that's my recollection when I looked into it.




Right on - thanks.


----------



## Nebulous

Guild Goodknife said:
			
		

> While i love Wayne Reynolds action scenes and monster illustrations, i
> A few high quality pieces can do so much for setting tone and atmosphere. Having something like this on the cover of one of the core books would rock!





Indeed.  I'm disappointed that we wont' see something like this on the cover.


----------



## Baby Samurai

Klaus said:
			
		

> Having seen the most excelent action figures for the elf prologue warriors, I can tell you that those aren't two-bladed weapons, but rather one-bladed swords with very long handles. They're actually closer to glaives than swords.




Cool - thanks.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

darkseraphim said:
			
		

> I would give the following as some examples in the change of flavor:
> * The naming of special non-spell powers



You mean like "flight," "heat vision," and "super-hearing"?  Superman is so anime.


> * Super-heroic combat effects, such as hitting multiple opponents with the same blow



Sauron is so anime.


> * The move away from anthropomorphic characters that have a folklore precedent



Star Wars is so anime.


> * The limitation of character death, the inclusion of balanced encounters vs. player estimation of danger



Being fair to the players is so anime.


> * The focus on high-level play (and, as such, “superpowers”) over the traditional sweet spot of levels 4-9



Mutants and Masterminds is so anime.


> * The rapidity of leveling (akin to an RPG videogame)



I think you read cause and effect in the wrong direction here.  Also, at what point do we hit the "no longer 'normal' D&D, now it's a video game" threshold?  I'm going to hazard a guess that it's slightly higher than the levelling rate that you happen to favour.


> * Character customization moving the focus to the “uniquely stylized dramatic loner,”  rather than the archetype



Is "unique dramatic loner" not an archetype?  Clint Eastwood in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly is so anime.



> On the art, it’s a mixed bag.  There are some examples that are, IMO, inarguably, absolutely anime-inspired.



Inarguably?  We haven't seen them then.  Lots of arguing in this thread.


----------



## Hussar

Ok, I think we have a winner in the Tiefling pic.  That one has everyone in agreement of the anime influence.  Sweet, we have one.

On the eyes of our Valenor, well, considering he's not human, that pretty much chucks out most of the proportions bits.  How tall are Valenor elves though?  I have no idea.  Standard elf height?  I'm going to call that one questionable since there seems to be some disagreement.

Everyone keeps bitching that I'm biased.  Maybe so.  However, I would point out that this is the second time I've been convinced, although the first was more of a false positive.  

I would ask though, unless the image is REALLY obvious, that you state where you see the anime influences when you post a pic.  BTW, where is that Valenor elf pic from?


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Nifft said:
			
		

> Don't make me hit your false binary straw man with my +4 bat of graded set membership category theory.



Best sentence in the thread.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Zamkaizer said:
			
		

> I could potentially counter both of these points by saying that the image depicts a Valenar Elf from Eberron. So, the eyes are explainable by it's race, and the double scimitar is explained by it's nationality.
> 
> EDIT: However, I agree that it does resemble anime.
> 
> Anyway, I love Vinod Rams' work, but many of his illustrations show clear Japanese influence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Tieflings" from Races of Faerun



I was wondering if someone would post this.  This is an example of something I would agree is intended to emulate an anime/manga style.  When I picked up Races of Faerun, I took a look at this guy's art and thought, MOAR!

But I didn't get moar.  This is the high water mark for anime/manga art style in WotC books.


----------



## Maggan

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> MOAR!




Had to look that word up. Another useless thing to know ...   

/M


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Hussar said:
			
		

> I would ask though, unless the image is REALLY obvious, that you state where you see the anime influences when you post a pic.



But...but then someone on the internet would have to _justify_ beliefs!  Blasphemy!


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Maggan said:
			
		

> Had to look that word up. Another useless thing to know ...
> 
> /M



Internet English is often good for lulz.


----------



## Maggan

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Internet English is often good for lulz.




I'm not falling for that one!

/M


----------



## Anti-Sean

Hussar said:
			
		

> BTW, where is that Valenor elf pic from?



It's the illustration for the Revenant Blade PrC from the Player's Guide to Eberron, by the same artist(s) whose comic-book style illustrations were accused of having 'teh animu' eariler in the thread. Like someone else stated earlier, the Mike Mignola-inspired illustrations in the ECS were far, far superior.


----------



## WizarDru

darkseraphim said:
			
		

> But a very good post and I’m appreciative that even if you didn’t follow my intent, you knew what I was referring to.




That's a very polite way of saying we're OLD, isn't it? 

I certainly understand your views on the core game...my point was just that I don't think anime had so much to do with it.  My point of mentioning Hero and GURPS and their various predecessors was simply that there was definitely a market for those changes well in advance of anime catching fire as a cultural standpoint in the US.  In the early 1980s, I remember going to conventions when anime was an obscure sideline for the occasional comic dealer and imports were rare and wondrous things.  But the ebb and flow of game systems for stuff like D&D was very much the talk of the day and many of those changes were pre-saged by other systems.  Now whether or not those changes are good or not is a completely different topic.  As I said, I'm just trying to point out that many of them were on the table as alternate D&D systems back when people looked at me cross-eyed for watching a show in a language I didn't understand, often without subtitles.


----------



## Puggins

I humbly submit an example of westerrn-style "anime" that has nothing to do with 3e.

http://studiofoglio.com/Merchant2/m...Product_Code=STF204&Category_Code=Girl_Genius

Hmm, that does seem familiar, though doesn't it?  Let's seeee.....

http://studiofoglio.com/Merchant2/m...&Product_Code=STF030&Category_Code=Phil_Dixie

Oh wait, you said *3e*, not 1e, right?

Never mind then.


----------



## Scribble

Hussar said:
			
		

> On the eyes of our Valenor, well, considering he's not human, that pretty much chucks out most of the proportions bits.




Not really. Even if you're not human, proportions are still important. If you don't get the proportions right, things start to look "wrong."

That said, like all "rules" in art, they can be broken. You just need to know how and why you're breaking it. If you do know why and how, you can really use it to great effect. Anime/Manga seems to use this idea a lot.

Eyes that are too large, legs that are slightly long, bodies that are on the thin side, poses that are almost impossible (if not impractical) muscles that are more angular then curved... Again, I'm no expert in Manga art, but these are all things Manga artists tend to use to make their images "pop."  

As someone pointed out, those eyes proportioned to the head, should be bending around the side, but they aren't. As an effect they sort of stand out more, and cause you to focus on them a bit. (linger might be a better word...) Like meeting the eyes of the enemy.




> How tall are Valenor elves though?  I have no idea.  Standard elf height?  I'm going to call that one questionable since there seems to be some disagreement.




It doesn't matter how tall the elves are supposed to be. You have the take the image and proportions as a whole. It's not just heads tall, but also how many heads down the shoulders fall, the stomach, how many wide the shoulders are, the fingers... everything basically. If you mess with it, you've either just effed up, or you're going for a certain effect.

Western art uses the techniques as well, but Anime/Manga tends to lean towards the use more often then not, and in effect drawling attention to it. It's a highly stylized art form.

That's where I see the influence in the D&D stuff. Again, I'm not saying that any one of the artists purposefully set out to draw an Anime picture. Art is just incestuous. It feeds off of itself. No artist says "This will be my style." They just grow into it. They unconsciously merge different styles and ideas into one that is their own.


----------



## DonTadow

I don't think you're going to find any. The question is akin to saying find me a piece of art in a wotc book that is inspired by Leonardo Divinci or Salvador Dali.  I've seen a billion different art styles in anime films. I've seen many that look very western in nature.  However, despite all the examples of art, none of them is "anime".


----------



## TwinBahamut

FireLance said:
			
		

> So, you're one of those people who believe that there are only three Star Wars movies, right?



Heh, I totally forgot about Darth Maul. It has been forever since I saw that movie (I saw it once on its opening weekend, and havn't seen it since), so I guess I just failed to recall that one. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan (though I do like the original trilogy).

Also, thanks for correcting me on the LotR opening sequence thing. They do look like double-blades if you arn't paying careful attention...

So I guess in total I lose one example and gain one? I'm fine with that.


----------



## Numion

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> So I guess in total I lose one example and gain one? I'm fine with that.




You're _Even Steven_


----------



## Klaus

Scribble said:
			
		

> Not really. Even if you're not human, proportions are still important. If you don't get the proportions right, things start to look "wrong."
> 
> That said, like all "rules" in art, they can be broken. You just need to know how and why you're breaking it. If you do know why and how, you can really use it to great effect. Anime/Manga seems to use this idea a lot.
> 
> Eyes that are too large, legs that are slightly long, bodies that are on the thin side, poses that are almost impossible (if not impractical) muscles that are more angular then curved... Again, I'm no expert in Manga art, but these are all things Manga artists tend to use to make their images "pop."
> 
> As someone pointed out, those eyes proportioned to the head, should be bending around the side, but they aren't. As an effect they sort of stand out more, and cause you to focus on them a bit. (linger might be a better word...) Like meeting the eyes of the enemy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter how tall the elves are supposed to be. You have the take the image and proportions as a whole. It's not just heads tall, but also how many heads down the shoulders fall, the stomach, how many wide the shoulders are, the fingers... everything basically. If you mess with it, you've either just effed up, or you're going for a certain effect.
> 
> Western art uses the techniques as well, but Anime/Manga tends to lean towards the use more often then not, and in effect drawling attention to it. It's a highly stylized art form.
> 
> That's where I see the influence in the D&D stuff. Again, I'm not saying that any one of the artists purposefully set out to draw an Anime picture. Art is just incestuous. It feeds off of itself. No artist says "This will be my style." They just grow into it. They unconsciously merge different styles and ideas into one that is their own.



 Well said!


----------



## Branduil

Zamkaizer said:
			
		

> I could potentially counter both of these points by saying that the image depicts a Valenar Elf from Eberron. So, the eyes are explainable by it's race, and the double scimitar is explained by it's nationality.
> 
> EDIT: However, I agree that it does resemble anime.
> 
> Anyway, I love Vinod Rams' work, but many of his illustrations show clear Japanese influence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Tieflings" from Races of Faerun




Okay, this is the first one where I can agree there's a clear manga influence. 

And it's pretty good.


----------



## Hussar

Disclaimer:  I'm not trying to weasel out of anything, this just occurred to me.

Every "anime inspired" bit we've seen so far comes from Eberron artwork AFAIK.  Is it fair to say that Eberron, with it specific styles, may have anime influences that are more pronounced than the rest of the game?

After all, it wouldn't be fair to judge all 2e art based on Planescape, or all 1e art based on Dragonlance.  Is this a case of a subset of the game having a particular look?


----------



## Mad Mac

> Every "anime inspired" bit we've seen so far comes from Eberron artwork AFAIK. Is it fair to say that Eberron, with it specific styles, may have anime influences that are more pronounced than the rest of the game?




  I'd say they were shooting more for comic book than anime, but yeah, it's no coincidence that just about every example pic posted was from Eberron. Eberron definately has it's own thing going in terms of art direction and will probably continue to look different in 4e. Which is a good thing in my book.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Hussar said:
			
		

> Disclaimer:  I'm not trying to weasel out of anything, this just occurred to me.




I think that the examples given already demonstrate that the contest has been won.  Therefore, I ask you sir, will you alter you sig, or should I consider you forsworn?    


RC


----------



## Anti-Sean

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> *I'd say they were shooting more for comic book than anime*, but yeah, it's no coincidence that just about every example pic posted was from Eberron. Eberron definately has it's own thing going in terms of art direction and will probably continue to look different in 4e. Which is a good thing in my book.



I'd agree with this, but I'd narrow the field a bit more and state that most of the comic book style they were shooting for was limited to the chapter headers, and most of the examples of comic book/anime influence posted were by the same artist(s) - Draxhall entertainment/studios/whatever. They seemed to use them a bit more in some of the subsequent setting books; most, if not all, of the other comic book style chapter headers  (and other art used in the setting) were much better.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> I think that the examples given already demonstrate that the contest has been won.  Therefore, I ask you sir, will you alter you sig, or should I consider you forsworn?
> 
> 
> RC



We had one good example.  If you're not going to let Hussar judge the posts in his thread based on his own criteria, then the only other option we have is consensus.  We've had one example that produced consensus.  Give us two more, and you've got a claim on his sig.


----------



## Hussar

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> I think that the examples given already demonstrate that the contest has been won.  Therefore, I ask you sir, will you alter you sig, or should I consider you forsworn?
> 
> 
> RC




What the Doctor said.  

One decent example.  Only one.  Out of all the art to choose from.


----------



## Klaus

Hussar said:
			
		

> Disclaimer:  I'm not trying to weasel out of anything, this just occurred to me.
> 
> Every "anime inspired" bit we've seen so far comes from Eberron artwork AFAIK.  Is it fair to say that Eberron, with it specific styles, may have anime influences that are more pronounced than the rest of the game?
> 
> After all, it wouldn't be fair to judge all 2e art based on Planescape, or all 1e art based on Dragonlance.  Is this a case of a subset of the game having a particular look?



 Not really. The "tieflings" image posted comes from Races of Faerun.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Hussar said:
			
		

> What the Doctor said.
> 
> One decent example.  Only one.  Out of all the art to choose from.




Actually, as I recall, you thought another one had anime characteristics.  Long ago, I suggested that you need an impartial judge.  Specific impartial judges might gain a consensus.  Consensus from everyone, though?  Unlikely on anything.   This is the Interweb.  If I said the sky was blue, I'd have an argument on my hands.

We've seen Warforged + original anime art Warforged look was designed from.

We've seen BESM gnome on stool, which you (if you are the judge) said qualified.  And, before you say "but others didn't agree", I must say, "then why did others not agreeing matter when you said something was _not_ anime-ish?"

We've seen Manga Tiefling.  Which you (if you are the judge) said qualified.

We've seen many other images in which there has been consensus (if not absolute concensus).

I certainly agree that I am not an impartial judge, but I suggest again that you appoint one or more.....and not simply on the basis that they are anime naysayers.  The mods here on EN World do a wonderful job of being impartial (IMHO).  Why not get Piratecat to judge?

BTW, how can you say

Every "anime inspired" bit we've seen so far comes from Eberron artwork AFAIK. Is it fair to say that Eberron, with it specific styles, may have anime influences that are more pronounced than the rest of the game?​
if you believe that there was only one bit of "anime inspired" art and it was from FR?  What are the Eberron pieces that qualify then?

RC


----------



## Anti-Sean

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> We've seen Warforged + original anime art Warforged look was designed from.



Actually, we've seen warforged + similar looking anime. On what basis are you claiming that warforged were designed from that particular piece of anime?


----------



## Klaus

Anti-Sean said:
			
		

> Actually, we've seen warforged + similar looking anime. On what basis are you claiming that warforged were designed from that particular ppiece of anime?



 IMHO, the look of the warforged is far too similar to that of Full Metal Alchemist to be dismissed.

And let's not forget the Revenant Blade elf posted a couple of pages back.

If I may give my opinion as an artist, both images show strong anime influence. Noy that it's a bad thing, mind you.


----------



## Mad Mac

> Not really. The "tieflings" image posted comes from Races of Faerun.




 Heh. Missed that completly. I'm not sure on the Full Metal Alchemist thing, though. The primary simularity is in the glowing eyes and the hinge jaw, and I'm not sure how many other ways there are to do these features on a Fantasy metal man. (One that looks cool, mind you)


----------



## Anti-Sean

Klaus said:
			
		

> IMHO, the look of the warforged is far too similar to that of Full Metal Alchemist to be dismissed.



On the contrary, I think it's easily dismissed; there's more to each figure than just the jaw. One could claim that Trap Jaw from He-Man was a design source, and it would have just about as much validity.


----------



## Aus_Snow

Branduil said:
			
		

> Okay, this is the first one where I can agree there's a clear manga influence.



Agree.



> And it's pretty good.



Disagree, naturally.


But yes, that would be the first and only one, as things stand. IMO.


----------



## Hussar

Sorry, thought the tiefling image was from Eberron.  My bad.  

As far as the elf goes, is it anime to draw a character as its described?  Klaus mentioned about the angular features and the like.  But, elves HAVE angular features.  They are specifically described as such.  Is that an anime influence or just drawing what's supposed to be there?

I can't find the image, but the line drawing of the elf face portrait in the PHB shows elves to be pretty angular with huge eyes.

The Full Metal Alchemist image isn't really all that similar to the warforged image.  Other than the fact that they have very similar subjects, I'm not seeing the influence.  The FMA robot is huge, the WF is fairly humanoid in shape, there's no spikey bits on the WF, and the WF has all sorts of non metal bits on him.


As far as the BESM gnome goes, sorry, not going to happen.  While at initial blush, I thought it might qualify, further exploration leads it to be pretty close to Hildebrant.  Unless, of course, you want to start calling Hildebrant anime.


----------



## Raven Crowking

I say again, if you think that you are in the right appoint a neutral judge or judges, or I consider you forsworn.

I've started the process of enlisting neutral judges:  http://messageboard.tokyopop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10725

After a week, unless these people decide against you, I'll post the next three pictures.


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> or I consider you forsworn.




Oh, heavens no!


----------



## Raven Crowking

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Oh, heavens no!




Just consider it a classier way of saying, "I thought you were full of it when you started this thread, and now we're just seeing if I was right."

RC


----------



## Cadfan

I asked a friend of mine to look at the thread a while back.  It was several pages ago, in post 210.  She's into comic books, and anime, both.  Quite a large collection of both.  I asked her whether the art in this thread was comic book or anime styled.  I didn't tell her my opinions on the matter.

She said that it was comic book art, mostly.  Some generic fantasy art.  No anime.

Immediately someone told me she wasn't objective.  Their reasoning was that she likes both comic books and anime.  I don't know why that reasoning makes sense, but that's what they told me.

If she wasn't acceptable to the "OH NOES THE ANIME" crowd, I don't know who would be.


----------



## Zoatebix

Elongated limbs?

El Greco is so anime?


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Actually, as I recall, you thought another one had anime characteristics.  Long ago, I suggested that you need an impartial judge.  Specific impartial judges might gain a consensus.  Consensus from everyone, though?  Unlikely on anything.   This is the Interweb.  If I said the sky was blue, I'd have an argument on my hands.
> 
> We've seen Warforged + original anime art Warforged look was designed from.



Already debunked by a couple of us.  _edit: even more of us since you posted about this again_



> We've seen BESM gnome on stool, which you (if you are the judge) said qualified.  And, before you say "but others didn't agree", I must say, "then why did others not agreeing matter when you said something was _not_ anime-ish?"



He was proven wrong by someone posting the Hildebrandt pic.  He wasn't proven wrong for the other ones he decided on.



> We've seen Manga Tiefling.  Which you (if you are the judge) said qualified.



And no one's arguing against that one.



> We've seen many other images in which there has been consensus (if not absolute concensus).



Actually, no.  All the other ones are controversial.



> BTW, how can you say
> 
> Every "anime inspired" bit we've seen so far comes from Eberron artwork AFAIK. Is it fair to say that Eberron, with it specific styles, may have anime influences that are more pronounced than the rest of the game?​
> if you believe that there was only one bit of "anime inspired" art and it was from FR?  What are the Eberron pieces that qualify then?
> 
> RC



To answer that for him, it's because the majority of the early submissions to the thread were from Eberron, the Valenar elf engendered a lot of discussion, and Eberron is a newer setting and therefore more likely to have deliberately appropriated anime aesthetics.  Obviously, someone thinks Eberron is full of anime, so he's investigating the reasons why.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> I say again, if you think that you are in the right appoint a neutral judge or judges, or I consider you forsworn.
> 
> I've started the process of enlisting neutral judges:  http://messageboard.tokyopop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10725
> 
> After a week, unless these people decide against you, I'll post the next three pictures.



Nuh uh!  I appoint myself to be the official Hussar forswornitude judge!  I called it first, so tough cookies.  I also declare myself king of the moon and rightful owner of all left-handed hammers.

My authority to do so is exactly as well-grounded as your authority to declare Hussar forsworn.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Cadfan said:
			
		

> I asked a friend of mine to look at the thread a while back.  It was several pages ago, in post 210.  She's into comic books, and anime, both.  Quite a large collection of both.  I asked her whether the art in this thread was comic book or anime styled.  I didn't tell her my opinions on the matter.
> 
> She said that it was comic book art, mostly.  Some generic fantasy art.  No anime.
> 
> Immediately someone told me she wasn't objective.  Their reasoning was that she likes both comic books and anime.  I don't know why that reasoning makes sense, but that's what they told me.
> 
> If she wasn't acceptable to the "OH NOES THE ANIME" crowd, I don't know who would be.



Someone who sees anime in WotC art with the fervour of Joe McCarthy spotting communists in the social service...which is why consensus is really our only option.


----------



## The Merciful

Celebrim said:
			
		

> Hmmm... Big widely spaced eyes?  Check.  The smaller the character, the bigger it's eyes?  Check.



I'd say smaller characters having bigger eyes in proportion to their bodies and head, as well having bigger heads in proportion to their bodies is just basic anatomy. One problem I have had with the current D&D art is that you can't tell a halfling from a human if there's isn't something in the image to compare the sizes. Gives a "bad movies special effect" feel to an image when there is such size reference points, too.


----------



## AllisterH

Klaus said:
			
		

> IMHO, the look of the warforged is far too similar to that of Full Metal Alchemist to be dismissed.
> 
> And let's not forget the Revenant Blade elf posted a couple of pages back.
> 
> If I may give my opinion as an artist, both images show strong anime influence. Noy that it's a bad thing, mind you.




Wait? Are you talking about Alphonse's metal body?

Isn't that simple a medieval suit of armour, something you would find straight out of the 1E PHB as compared to the 3E PHB?


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

The Merciful said:
			
		

> I'd say smaller characters having bigger eyes in proportion to their bodies and head, as well having bigger heads in proportion to their bodies is just basic anatomy.




Well, yeah.  The size of the orbit is proportional to visual acuity.  That's why ostriches have eyes the size of plums, but moles have eyes the size of sesame seeds.  If you need good vision, you need more surface to pack the visual cells on, and if halflings are supposed to have eyesight that is about as good as a human's, they need eyes that are about the same size.  Cranium size is important too.  Big brains are necessary to be about as smart as a human, and so a halfling's head should be large enough to carry a fairly large brain.  So you get big heads and big eyes in proportion to the size of their bodies, for exactly the same reasons that human children have proportionally big heads and big eyes.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

*Still waiting for a merge function*



			
				AllisterH said:
			
		

> Wait? Are you talking about Alphonse's metal body?
> 
> Isn't that simple a medieval suit of armour, something you would find straight out of the 1E PHB as compared to the 3E PHB?



Well, see, the helmet has a jaw, so it's anime.  Jaws are so anime.


----------



## Jedi_Solo

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Jaws are so anime.




[hijack]

We're anti-sharks now?  When did this happen?

[/byejack]


----------



## AllisterH

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Well, see, the helmet has a jaw, so it's anime.  Jaws are so anime.




Kinda weird to use FMA as an example. That anime is HEAVILY influenced in look and feel of Europe pre-Industrial revolution. The japanese have no history/mthology about Alchemy/Philosopher's Stone/Seven Deadly Sins.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Already debunked by a couple of us.  _edit: even more of us since you posted about this again_




Um...saying "No it isn't" isn't the same as debunking.

If you look at first respondant to the poll I posted on the Anime Messageboard, you'll note that the respondent joined apparently just to answer that poll, but has no knowledge of this thread.  Hmmm.  It reminds me a bit of a recent Savage Love column, when Dan Savage talked about the kind of details that he uses to preclude fake letters.  Clearly, someone on this discussion has no desire to see an unbiased judgement, and attempts to tell the other potential respondents what is being seen.

I smell a rat.

(But I absolutely, unequivocably, believe that that rat _*is not the OP, who I have faith would not do this sort of thing*_.)

When someone tries to avoid an impartial judge, there is always a reason for it!


RC


----------



## Raven Crowking

Jedi_Solo said:
			
		

> [hijack]
> 
> We're anti-sharks now?  When did this happen?
> 
> [/byejack]





When WotC jumped the shark.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Nuh uh!  I appoint myself to be the official Hussar forswornitude judge!  I called it first, so tough cookies.  I also declare myself king of the moon and rightful owner of all left-handed hammers.
> 
> My authority to do so is exactly as well-grounded as your authority to declare Hussar forsworn.




My ability to declare that _*I consider*_ a person forsworn is absolute.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Cadfan said:
			
		

> I asked a friend of mine to look at the thread a while back.  It was several pages ago, in post 210.  She's into comic books, and anime, both.  Quite a large collection of both.  I asked her whether the art in this thread was comic book or anime styled.  I didn't tell her my opinions on the matter.
> 
> She said that it was comic book art, mostly.  Some generic fantasy art.  No anime.




So far, two actual Tokyopop messageboard members agree with her.



> Immediately someone told me she wasn't objective.  Their reasoning was that she likes both comic books and anime.  I don't know why that reasoning makes sense, but that's what they told me.




Why would liking both disqualify someone?  I think it would probably make someone more qualified.  Are you sure that your post wasn't accepted because there's no way of checking the source?  For example, say I claim that I have a friend who is very knowledgable about anime, and who likes comics, and who claims that at least three of these pictures are anime-inspired.  Would that be enough for you?  Of course not.  Nor should it be.



> If she wasn't acceptable to the "OH NOES THE ANIME" crowd, I don't know who would be.




Claiming that anime influence is in WotC artwork =/= "OH NOES THE ANIME".  Obviously.

I'm thinking that if I can talk a Tokyopop Mod into looking at this thread, and then rendering a verdict on the Tokyopop site, that this should be acceptable as a judge who is both impartial and knowledgeable.  Of course, I don't know if I can do that, but I'd like to try.

What do you say, Hussar?  Does that sound agreeable to you?


RC

SWEETEN THE POT:  If Hussar agrees to abide by the decision, and I can get a Tokyopop Mod to do this, and they decide that Hussar is right, I'll put the following in my sig for a year:

Hussar is the greatest god of gaming and has proven me to be the biggest schmuck of the internet. He won his anime challenge and I hereby declare that 3e art is not at all inspired by anime.


----------



## The Merciful

Hussar said:
			
		

> One decent example.  Only one.  Out of all the art to choose from.



Well, not to walk over you, but in your original post you wrote: _"To anyone who can find three examples of *anime* art from any WOTC Dungeons and Dragons book."_ I do agree the thiefling picture has clear manga/anime influence in it, but I would look funny at anyone trying to tell me it *is* anime/manga.


----------



## TwinBahamut

AllisterH said:
			
		

> Wait? Are you talking about Alphonse's metal body?
> 
> Isn't that simple a medieval suit of armour, something you would find straight out of the 1E PHB as compared to the 3E PHB?



I found that amusing too... Alphonse from FMA is not a robot. He is a hollow suit of ordinary armor being animated by a bound human soul. He is nothing like a warforged. I don't even see a reasonable similarity in appearance.


----------



## Scribble

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> I found that amusing too... Alphonse from FMA is not a robot. He is a hollow suit of ordinary armor being animated by a bound human soul. He is nothing like a warforged. I don't even see a reasonable similarity in appearance.




Possibly. It's not, however, the character story you're comparing, but the artistic rendering.


----------



## Merlin the Tuna

This just in!  4E art revealed, and it's totally anime!

[sblock]






[/sblock]

You may now carry on with your lives.


----------



## blargney the second

Lmao


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Um...saying "No it isn't" isn't the same as debunking.




We didn't say "no it isn't."  We gave reasons.  You can agree or disagree with them, but the art simply does not look very similar, and the comparison is undermined by people pointing out that there are only so many ways you can draw a walking, talking suit of armour.  Due to the latter point, the likelihood of any resemblance being coincidental is high enough that someone would need to demonstrate that the warforged is actually inspired by FMA to make a solid connection.



> If you look at first respondant to the poll I posted on the Anime Messageboard, you'll note that the respondent joined apparently just to answer that poll, but has no knowledge of this thread.  Hmmm.  It reminds me a bit of a recent Savage Love column, when Dan Savage talked about the kind of details that he uses to preclude fake letters.  Clearly, someone on this discussion has no desire to see an unbiased judgement, and attempts to tell the other potential respondents what is being seen.
> 
> I smell a rat.
> 
> (But I absolutely, unequivocably, believe that that rat _*is not the OP, who I have faith would not do this sort of thing*_.)




So, you're saying it's the OP?



> When someone tries to avoid an impartial judge, there is always a reason for it!
> 
> 
> RC



I have reason to believe that there are no impartial judges around here that would satisfy either side, given the testimonial by Cadfan.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> My ability to declare that _*I consider*_ a person forsworn is absolute.



True, but that doesn't give you any claim to Hussar's sig.


----------



## Wormwood

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> You may now carry on with your lives.




And you sir, may enjoy the Internet that you just won.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> I'm thinking that if I can talk a Tokyopop Mod into looking at this thread, and then rendering a verdict on the Tokyopop site, that this should be acceptable as a judge who is both impartial and knowledgeable.  Of course, I don't know if I can do that, but I'd like to try.
> 
> What do you say, Hussar?  Does that sound agreeable to you?



I can't speak for Hussar, but that sounds fair to me.  Of course, it's his sig.  I'd like to see how you explain the contest to her, though.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> So, you're saying it's the OP?




Not at all.  I am saying that, while I believe it is someone in this thread, that I'd accept that 4e would be flawless sight unseen before I thought it would be Hussar.  That isn't sarcasm.  I believe Hussar would be partial in judging this contest - very partial - but I do not remotely believe he would try to interfere with an impartial judge.  I was trying to make certain that, when I said I smelled a rat, that the reader would know that I do not in any way, shape, or form, believe that rat to be Hussar, and will defend him against any claim that it is so.

Clear?



> I have reason to believe that there are no impartial judges around here that would satisfy either side, given the testimonial by Cadfan.




Are you sure that Cadfan's testimonial wasn't accepted because there's no way of checking the source? For example, say I claim that I have a friend who is very knowledgable about anime, and who likes comics, and who claims that at least three of these pictures are anime-inspired. Would that be enough for you? Of course not. Nor should it be.

I never claimed I had claim to Hussar's sig; I just claimed that I believe the contest has been won, and that Hussar should do as he claimed.  _*But*_ I also accept that there are far more competent judges (and far more impartial) than myself, which is why I suggested trying to get the Tokyopop mod.

If Hussar responds to my suggestion, I'll work on getting a Tokyopop mod tomorrow.

RC


----------



## Klaus

AllisterH said:
			
		

> Wait? Are you talking about Alphonse's metal body?
> 
> Isn't that simple a medieval suit of armour, something you would find straight out of the 1E PHB as compared to the 3E PHB?



 Disclaimer: I love Eberron, and I like anime. Hell, there's even a Rurouni Kenshin picture on my website, and I used to watch InuYasha daily with my wife before my son was born.

Anyone who can't see the similarities between the FMA character and the warforged race is just trying to be contrary. I had never heard of FMA before seeing the image here in EN World, and I was surprised by the similarities.

It doesn't matter if he's a suit of armor animated by a soul, while the warforged are bodies of metal, stone and wood animated by possibly a soul. I'm talking about appearances. The jaw is the LEAST similar part.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> I'd like to see how you explain the contest to her, though.




I am thinking:

There's a thread on EN World where folks are trying to determine if several pictures are or are not inspired by anime/manga.  We feel that you would be a knowledgeable and impartial judge.  If you are willing, can you tell us which pictures on this thread (link inserted) are inspired by anime/manga (if any).

Anything on that thread you could enlighten us on, regarding misconceptions about anime that you read, would also be appreciated.  

Thank you very much.​
Then I would ask the respondent on EN World to confirm screen name here on Tokyopop, so that no one here (myself, for instance) could pretend to be a mod there and say whatever that person likes here.

(That last sentence sort of got away from me......)

RC


----------



## WizarDru

Klaus said:
			
		

> Anyone who can't see the similarities between the FMA character and the warforged race is just trying to be contrary. I had never heard of FMA before seeing the image here in EN World, and I was surprised by the similarities.




As an artist, I don't see why you would be.  One is a suit of fanciful European armor enchanted to be animate by a magic in an anime series.  The other is a partially wooden golem covered in armor plating.  How different do you think the representations were going to be?

I mean, is either one of those that different from these:

















Certainly there are similarities...that hardly indicates casuality or connection.  Especially as they appeared at roughly the same time.


----------



## Nifft

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> I've started the process of enlisting neutral judges:  http://messageboard.tokyopop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10725
> 
> After a week, unless these people decide against you, I'll post the next three pictures.



 There's only three votes.

Is that a really slow board or something? (What board is the "EN World" of anime?)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Merlin the Tuna

Klaus said:
			
		

> Anyone who can't see the similarities between the FMA character and the warforged race is just trying to be contrary.



Well, I mean, they look similar in that they're made of metal.  All but the first Warforged image look a lot more like Robocop than Alphonse, and the first one pretty much just looks like a fancy suit of full plate with some LEDs in the helm.


----------



## Cadfan

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Are you sure that Cadfan's testimonial wasn't accepted because there's no way of checking the source? For example, say I claim that I have a friend who is very knowledgable about anime, and who likes comics, and who claims that at least three of these pictures are anime-inspired. Would that be enough for you? Of course not. Nor should it be.




One person objected, and gave reasons.  Your inferences weren't the reasons they gave.  No one else seemed to care.  And as for a way of checking the source, if you figure out how to do that over the internet, please let me know.

In any case, enlisting anime fans from an anime board doesn't seem to ME to be the best way to get neutral judges, anymore than enlisting comic book fans from a comic book board would be a neutral choice.  I mean, if we're trying to be all scientific about it now.


----------



## Klaus

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> Well, I mean, they look similar in that they're made of metal.  All but the first Warforged image look a lot more like Robocop than Alphonse, and the first one pretty much just looks like a fancy suit of full plate with some LEDs in the helm.



 If you can't see the similarities in the head shape, head size, eye depiction, shoulder plates, knees, gauntlets and posture, then I guess continuing with this argument is moot.


----------



## IanB

Klaus said:
			
		

> If you can't see the similarities in the head shape, head size, eye depiction, shoulder plates, knees, gauntlets and posture, then I guess continuing with this argument is moot.




But... the posture is different in every warforged picture you posted! I really don't see the connection here. If anything they're both just modeled on a regular old suit of armor. Of course they'll be similar.


----------



## Nifft

Klaus said:
			
		

> If you can't see the similarities in the head shape, head size, eye depiction, shoulder plates, knees, gauntlets and posture, then I guess continuing with this argument is moot.



 I'm with IanB.

They all look similar... to any suit of armor.

You mention the knees. The top picture has ball-joint knees, with the ball interior to the leg segments, while all the others have simple hinge knees and a plate covering that extends over the hinge. They really couldn't be much more different!

The neck and chest on the top picture are totally different from the faux-muscle plates on the Warforged.

The heads... have glowing red eyes?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## TwinBahamut

Alphonse's armor is bulky, with many large , squarish plates that are bent at sharp angles and have large, sweeping curves. Many pieces of the armor are solid pieces of metal, and there is little riveting visible. The armor has a loincloth, and is held together by leather straps. The armor does not match the proportions of a normal human at all (very apparent if you watch the anime).

Warforged tend to have minimal armor, which mostly consist of many small, gently curved plates, each of which is individually and visibly bolted onto the core body of the warforged. The majority of a warforged's body is made of wood, and they distinctly lack any leather straps or loincloths. For the most part, the armor and wood of a warforged are pretty close to the shape of a very muscular human.

Overall, I can see a strong similarity between the warforged and previous art for golems in 3E D&D. The warforged strongly resemble Iron Golems and Shield Guardians from the 3E Monster Manual. Since the 3E Monster Manual predates Fulmetal Alchemist by a few years, I don't see any reason to claim Alphonse had any influence on the Warforged.

I don't see how I am "just being contrary" by making this argument...


----------



## Scribble

IanB said:
			
		

> But... the posture is different in every warforged picture you posted! I really don't see the connection here. If anything they're both just modeled on a regular old suit of armor. Of course they'll be similar.




I understand what he's saying. (I think at least.)

Both are modeled on sets of armor- true. Both are also modeled on some sort of "sentience" in the armor itself. 

These aren't just guys in armor. They are metalic life forms. How does one make that come across in a picture?

Thats a tricky thing for an artist to do.  You can see the difference (provided you're not just ignoring it) between say the first Warforged pic, and the first one posted in Wizardru's post.


The Warforged definitely feels more organic. It's definitely not just a guy wearing armor, it IS a creature made of metal. The same is true for the FMA character. 

If you look at the first piece in Wizardru's post you can see a set of armor.

But if you look at either the FMA pic, or the Warforged, even if you knew nothing about either thing, you can still tell the idea is that the armor itself is alive.

I'd say the techniques used by both the FMA artists and Franz Vohwinkle to accomplish that organicness are similar.

Is that saying he set out to draw the FMA guy? 

I doubt it, but I'd be willing to bet his "teachers" contain a few manga artists.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Nifft said:
			
		

> There's only three votes.
> 
> Is that a really slow board or something? (What board is the "EN World" of anime?)
> 
> Cheers, -- N




No idea.  I just googled "anime messageboard"

RC


----------



## Raven Crowking

Cadfan said:
			
		

> In any case, enlisting anime fans from an anime board doesn't seem to ME to be the best way to get neutral judges, anymore than enlisting comic book fans from a comic book board would be a neutral choice.  I mean, if we're trying to be all scientific about it now.





Why not?

Do we expect them to have a vested interest in whether or not anime influences exist in D&D?

Do we expect them to have a vested interest in Hussar's sig?

Do we expect them to NOT be knowledgeable about anime?

RC


----------



## Klaus

IanB said:
			
		

> But... the posture is different in every warforged picture you posted! I really don't see the connection here. If anything they're both just modeled on a regular old suit of armor. Of course they'll be similar.



 Posture, not pose.

Alphonse and all the other warforged, are squattish, with a very similar ratio between torso, arms, shoulders and legs. No human being could wear the armor that is Alphonse's body and still have human-like proportions. The proportions are quite similar in the warforged, who are also portrayed as squattish. Specially when the 'forged in question has Adamantine Body.

It's been asked "how could they be different". In more ways than they could be similar.  From the Cylons to C3PO, from Battle Chaser's Calibretto to Iron Kingdom's war golems, there are litterally countless ways that a "sentient suit of armor" could be made different from the 'forged or Alphonse.

Just to reinterate: I'm not saying that the 'forged are a copy of Alphonse, or that the 'forged are "anime". What I am saying is that the designs are so close to each other that the notion of one serving as the other's inspiration isn't unlikely.

With that cleared, back to the Anime Challenge.


----------



## Nifft

Klaus said:
			
		

> It's been asked "how could they be different". In more ways than they could be similar.  From the Cylons to C3PO, from Battle Chaser's Calibretto to Iron Kingdom's war golems, there are litterally countless ways that a "sentient suit of armor" could be made different from the 'forged or Alphonse.



 In that sentence, "they" referred to the knees, which you had made a point of being specifically similar.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Klaus said:
			
		

> Disclaimer: I love Eberron, and I like anime. Hell, there's even a Rurouni Kenshin picture on my website, and I used to watch InuYasha daily with my wife before my son was born.
> 
> Anyone who can't see the similarities between the FMA character and the warforged race is just trying to be contrary. I had never heard of FMA before seeing the image here in EN World, and I was surprised by the similarities.
> 
> It doesn't matter if he's a suit of armor animated by a soul, while the warforged are bodies of metal, stone and wood animated by possibly a soul. I'm talking about appearances. The jaw is the LEAST similar part.



Say what, now?  The latter four images are obviously part of an internally consistent design plan, while the first one looks about as different from the other four as you can get, considering the restriction that it has to look like a suit of armour.  It's actually quite remarkable that they managed to make warforged look as differentiated from animated armour or iron golems as they did, while still maintaining the "armoured humanoid thing" image.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Klaus said:
			
		

> If you can't see the similarities in the head shape, head size, eye depiction, shoulder plates, knees, gauntlets and posture, then I guess continuing with this argument is moot.



I can see that they have heads, eyes, shoulders, knees, gauntlets, and posture, but similarity?  Maybe if I put them on the other side of the room and squinted my eyes a bit...


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Scribble said:
			
		

> If you look at the first piece in Wizardru's post you can see a set of armor.
> 
> But if you look at either the FMA pic, or the Warforged, even if you knew nothing about either thing, you can still tell the idea is that the armor itself is alive.



For the warforged, yes.  For the FMA guy?  No.  It looks like a guy wearing armour.  Perhaps even an empty suit put together on a stand.  The warforged are usually very clearly made of solid stuff, with no room for a human to fit inside (scale issues aside).  They also tend to have very expressive heads and bodies, which helps to carry the impression that they're alive.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

*Still waiting for a merge function*



			
				Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Why not?
> 
> Do we expect them to have a vested interest in whether or not anime influences exist in D&D?




Maybe.  If you look for something, you tend to find it.


> Do we expect them to have a vested interest in Hussar's sig?



Nope.



> Do we expect them to NOT be knowledgeable about anime?



Nope.

Two out of three ain't bad.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Klaus said:
			
		

> Posture, not pose.
> 
> Alphonse and all the other warforged, are squattish, with a very similar ratio between torso, arms, shoulders and legs. No human being could wear the armor that is Alphonse's body and still have human-like proportions. The proportions are quite similar in the warforged, who are also portrayed as squattish. Specially when the 'forged in question has Adamantine Body.
> 
> It's been asked "how could they be different". In more ways than they could be similar.  From the Cylons to C3PO, from Battle Chaser's Calibretto to Iron Kingdom's war golems, there are litterally countless ways that a "sentient suit of armor" could be made different from the 'forged or Alphonse.



Now that you mention it, the regular warforged look much more like C3PO than they do like that FMA guy.


----------



## Nifft

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Maybe.  If you look for something, you tend to find it.



 From now on I'm doomed to find evidence for this, aren't I?

Meme'd, -- N


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Nifft said:
			
		

> From now on I'm doomed to find evidence for this, aren't I?



Very good, Grasshopper.  You get a cookie.


----------



## Lackhand

Fnord.


----------



## Hussar

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Now that you mention it, the regular warforged look much more like C3PO than they do like that FMA guy.




I'm glad someone else said this.  I thought of that last night and figured I'd post it here.

/edit - did a bit of extra work.







Between the three pics, the warforged is IMO, far closer to 3PO than to FMA.  If 3PO had a slightly smaller head and was a bit more buff, he'd be the warforged almost exactly.


----------



## epochrpg

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> I found that amusing too... Alphonse from FMA is not a robot. He is a hollow suit of ordinary armor being animated by a bound human soul. He is nothing like a warforged. I don't even see a reasonable similarity in appearance.




Yeah, i know, these comparisons between Full Metal Alchemist and warforged are ridiculous. If you zoom in to an image, you will see Alphonse's jaw is attached by square rivets, whereas the rivets of a warforged are clearly round.  Also, Alphonse has a feather/plume/ribbon thing coming out of his head-- and I don't see ANY warforged artwork where they put on any such decoration.

As for me, I am tempted to start a thread called "*Don't *find the anime challenge".  If people win, I will tattoo the pictures onto my forehead.  All they have to do is get me to admit that any three images they post are anime.  Of course, since I am the one who gets to decide if it is anime or not, it is unlikely that I will be needing to visit the tatoo parlor anytime soon...


----------



## Geron Raveneye

I don't know about the rest, but that warforged could easily appear in a Studio Ghibli movie the way it is done.


----------



## The Merciful

Klaus said:
			
		

> If you can't see the similarities in the head shape, head size, eye depiction, shoulder plates, knees, gauntlets and posture, then I guess continuing with this argument is moot.



When a manga tries to represent a real world item like a Sukhoi fighter jet, its shape is the shape of a real Sukhoi, yet I'll likely know it is manga due *how* it is draw. It is not the content of the images that matters, but the style of the art that is used to represent the content. The warforged images you posted represent the warforged in very un-manga style in my eyes.


----------



## Simia Saturnalia

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Yeah, i know, these comparisons between Full Metal Alchemist and warforged are ridiculous. If you zoom in to an image, you will see Alphonse's jaw is attached by square rivets, whereas the rivets of a warforged are clearly round.  Also, Alphonse has a feather/plume/ribbon thing coming out of his head-- and I don't see ANY warforged artwork where they put on any such decoration.
> 
> As for me, I am tempted to start a thread called "*Don't *find the anime challenge".  If people win, I will tattoo the pictures onto my forehead.  All they have to do is get me to admit that any three images they post are anime.  Of course, since I am the one who gets to decide if it is anime or not, it is unlikely that I will be needing to visit the tatoo parlor anytime soon...



I see what you did there.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Two out of three ain't bad.




Much better than the "three out of three" we have now, eh?    

(I'm talking both sides here.)


RC


(I am still waiting for Hussar's reply to my proposition, which is the only important reply.  Perhaps he's waiting for more Tokyopop votes before he commits one way or the other?   )


----------



## Dacileva

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> (I am still waiting for Hussar's reply to my proposition, which is the only important reply.  Perhaps he's waiting for more Tokyopop votes before he commits one way or the other?   )



I might note that that Tokyopop poll is open, and of the five "not anime influenced" votes, one might have joined particularly to vote "no", but the other four are members of that board (a 10K post mod, a 36-post newbie (from August, so not from ENWorld), a just-sub-1K poster, and a 12K poster).  I'd say the impartial judges have weighed in already.


----------



## Mad Mac

I'd say the Tokyo-Pop poll is decidely one-sided against. As far as this question:



> (What board is the "EN World" of anime?)




  Biggest Anime boards I've noticed would be ANN. 

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/


----------



## Raven Crowking

Dacileva said:
			
		

> I might note that that Tokyopop poll is open, and of the five "not anime influenced" votes, one might have joined particularly to vote "no", but the other four are members of that board (a 10K post mod, a 36-post newbie (from August, so not from ENWorld), a just-sub-1K poster, and a 12K poster).  I'd say the impartial judges have weighed in already.




On the first three, I would be willing to agree.  I wonder why Hussar hasn't agreed to "officially" allow the same method of judgement for all of the pictures?

RC


----------



## TwinBahamut

Edit: Nevermind...


----------



## Numion

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> On the first three, I would be willing to agree.  I wonder why Hussar hasn't agreed to "officially" allow the same method of judgement for all of the pictures?
> 
> RC




Since you organized it? I mean, you've been voicing your opinions on pokemon influences of D&D quite strongly for some time now, so I think you'd view him losing this as some kind of victory. 

That combined with your sig bet means you have vested interest in this thing - so, just maybe he's suspicious of any poll you organized for 'victory'. Who knows how much you're pals with tokyopop forums?


----------



## Hussar

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Much better than the "three out of three" we have now, eh?
> 
> (I'm talking both sides here.)
> 
> 
> RC
> 
> 
> (I am still waiting for Hussar's reply to my proposition, which is the only important reply.  Perhaps he's waiting for more Tokyopop votes before he commits one way or the other?   )




I find it very, very funny that someone who has so vehemently defended a DM's right to run the game that he wants to run would bitch and whine so constantly about someone's game.  

In other words, I've already shown that I'm more than willing to be convinced by solid arguments.  Either put up or shut up.  It's my ball, my game, and I'll be the judge thankyouverymuch.  Don't like it?  Fine, don't play.  No skin off my nose.  But, if you think that your arguments are simply too weak to stand any scrutiny, then that's your problem, not mine.  

As I've said, I'm willing to be swayed here.  I've proven that I have a pretty open mind and am willing to be convinced.  We've already got one solid contender and everything that I've disqualified I've put forth pretty solid arguments as to why and no one has questioned that.

So, RC, since you're the only one right now whining about how the game is rigged, since you have yet to weigh in with examples, how would you like to either piss or get off the pot?

Stop thread crapping please.


----------



## Nifft

Hussar said:
			
		

> As I've said, I'm willing to be swayed here.  I've proven that I have a pretty open mind and am willing to be convinced.  We've already got one solid contender and everything that I've disqualified I've put forth pretty solid arguments as to why and no one has questioned that.



 So the score stands at 1 out of a necessary 3 right now? (It was the Faerun Tieflings, right?)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Hussar

Yup.


----------



## Imaro

What about these...


----------



## Zamkaizer

The first one really isn't fair, since it's the same artist as the piece that's previously been established as having anime/manga influences. I, for one, don't think that it doesn't particularly display those same influences either.

The second one doesn't seem particularly special either, except for the dynamic pose. Also, done by first artists wife, for what it's worth.

Third one looks more like something by Mike Mingola or Kev Walker than any Japanese artist.


----------



## Mad Mac

I don't follow comic book artists, so I had to look up the names. Interesting contrast, to be sure. 

Mike Mignola:

http://images.google.com/images?q=m...1I7RNWN&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title

Kev Walker:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kev_Walker

  Honestly, the more I look at comic book art, the more it looks like the best description for 3rd edition D&D art.


----------



## Nifft

Imaro said:
			
		

> What about these...



 What about them?

Could you point out what you're seeing which makes you think they're anime?

Thanks, -- N


----------



## TwinBahamut

I wouldn't say any of these three are definitively anime-influenced.

Nothing about the woman in black and red seems distinctly anime to me. Comic-book perhaps, but I wouldn't say it is anime.

The second is goofy.  There is a lot of energy, but nothing anime-styled. The distinct, round, and reddish nose reminds me of the Santa Claus you see on Coca-Cola cans.

Both of the first two have too much mis-matched gear and randomly assorted equipment to look much like an anime character.

We have seen quite a lot of art from the same artist as the third image already. I still say there are similarities in coloration, but nothing clearly anime-influenced.


----------



## Hussar

I've said this a few times already.  Could people please explain where they see the influences along with posting pictures.  It helps to establish a line of communication.  Also, please post the source of the images as well.

Just a question though as well.  With that first pic Imaro, what is that thing?  

I asked this before and no one answered me, so I'll ask again.  If the thing being described fits a certain artistic style by virtue of its description, can we say that art based on that description is anime inspired?  For example, elves are described as having pointy chins, look effeminate and have overly large eyes.  They've been described this way for 30 years in D&D.  Does that make every pic of elves anime inspired since the features actually resemble anime features?

I'm not trying to be snarky at all, I'm really curious.


----------



## The Merciful

Imaro said:
			
		

>



This one looks very European comics style to me. Wouldn't look out place in Heavy Metal either (well, you would need more boobs maybe).


----------



## Geron Raveneye

Got to admit, sometimes I wonder what kind of verdict something like this






would get from the assembled folks.


----------



## Zamkaizer

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> Got to admit, sometimes I wonder what kind of verdict something like this
> 
> ...
> 
> would get from the assembled folks.




...I see what you did there...

Yoshitaka Amano's style really isn't that far removed from those of Rebbecca Guay or Terese Nielsen. It would be amazing if he illustrated for Dungeons & Dragons. The Final Fantasy series lost something when he stopped concepting them.


----------



## Geron Raveneye

Yeah, but is it...*gasp*...anime?


----------



## Nifft

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> Yeah, but is it...*gasp*...anime?



 Irrelevant to whether it *looks* anime. And that's the big irony of this discussion.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Teemu

I don't have the time to read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been posted already, but this picture of Kelemvor - look at his face. That's an anime/manga face.


----------



## Geron Raveneye

Nifft said:
			
		

> Irrelevant to whether it *looks* anime. And that's the big irony of this discussion.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Yep, that's the big funny part of this whole thing.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Zamkaizer said:
			
		

> ...I see what you did there...
> 
> Yoshitaka Amano's style really isn't that far removed from those of Rebbecca Guay or Terese Nielsen. It would be amazing if he illustrated for Dungeons & Dragons. The Final Fantasy series lost something when he stopped concepting them.



Amano is a fantastic Japanese artist. However, he is also the best example I can think of why Japanese artist != anime style. Amano's artwork is very thoroughly rooted in traditional forms of Japanese art, not the modern style of anime art. He is not what anyone is talking about when they talk about "anime-influence".

But who is that guy in that picture? He looks like he is wearing Vampire Hunter D's hat, but otherwise looks pretty different...

As for the other picture, I think it might be hard to call. The face isn't typical anime-style, but it is nonetheless the kind of face you might see once and a while in an anime. At the same time, everything else about the picture seems more western to me. The pose seems to resemble something you might see in a renaissance painting, rather than an anime. I can't make a definitive call.

Aside from the anime discussion though, what is up with the armor in that last picture? Everyone around him is wearing plate, but the heroic-looking guy is in out-of-date chainmail? The woman is wearing plate (the annoying "female" breastplate type of armor, too), but is wearing leather boots rather than metal greaves? How wierd... It is so close, but not quite right.


----------



## BryonD

I am thinking of a number.  It is between 1 and 5 (inclusive).
I will send a check for $100 to the first person to guess the right number.
If it is Hussar I will send $500.
Only the first four guesses count.

I also reserve the right to reject any answers that don't comply with my other rules for this game.


----------



## Nifft

BryonD said:
			
		

> I am thinking of a number.  It is between 1 and 5 (inclusive).



 Integers, reals, rationals or complex?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Sabathius42

1st edition Mind Flayer







2nd edition Mind Flayer






3rd edition Mind Flayer






3.5 edition Mind Flayer






Things that make this "anime influenced"
1. Mid-karate-kick pose
2. "Exploding" background
3. Mindflayer with twin katanas and bow, ala a samurai
4. Mindflayer with impossible to use polearm weapon that has an energy aura
5. Ninja toe-boots 

Do I get a point for that?
DS


----------



## Nifft

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> 4. Mindflayer with impossible to use polearm weapon that has an energy aura



 Polearm? Are you sure that's not a hat rack?

Hmmm, -- N


----------



## TwinBahamut

BryonD said:
			
		

> I am thinking of a number.  It is between 1 and 5 (inclusive).
> I will send a check for $100 to the first person to guess the right number.
> If it is Hussar I will send $500.
> Only the first four guesses count.
> 
> I also reserve the right to reject any answers that don't comply with my other rules for this game.



Before anyone else does, I guess pi. Just because pi is awesome. Though the natural number e also is in that range, and is also awesome... Tough choice...

But what is your point?

As for the Mind Flayer... All those points made certainly prove that the Mind Flayer got turned into a ninja, but I question whether getting turned into a ninja is the same thing as anime influence. I mean, he looks like he would be right at home in an episode of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. In fact, the surprising lack of Ninja Toe Boots and double-swords in ninja anime, and thier prevalence in Western ninja comics, makes me say that the influence is just ninja popularity and western comics, not anime.

Also, I don't really agree about the exploding background bit. It looks more like a basic neutral color or clpud background to me. It reminds me of what they put behind me in my high-school yearbook portrait. If it were a moving lines background, I would concede the point, but it isn't.


----------



## BryonD

Nifft said:
			
		

> Integers, reals, rationals or complex?
> 
> Cheers, -- N



Integers.


----------



## BryonD

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> But what is your point?



That it is easy to set up a rigged game that can't be won.


----------



## Nifft

BryonD said:
			
		

> That it is easy to set up a rigged game that can't be won.



 I thought you were going somewhere humorous with this, but it's looking more and more like a simple insinuation of bad faith. Let's not go there? It's hard enough to have a productive discussion about what are essentially matters of taste.

Thanks, -- N


----------



## BryonD

Nifft said:
			
		

> I thought you were going somewhere humorous with this, but it's looking more and more like a simple insinuation of bad faith. Let's not go there? It's hard enough to have a productive discussion about what are essentially matters of taste.
> 
> Thanks, -- N



But that is my point.  Matters of taste are not being allowed in so far as the supposed contest is concerned.  The implication has clearly become that if someone sees an influence then they are simply ignorant.  Unless one can "prove" the completely subjective idea of art not being simply influenced but fully representative of anime in Hussar's mind then they are wrong to suggest that any influence is present at all.  That is a rigged game.

If you want to have a productive discussion on matters of taste then starting from "go" with a game that only permits one view is a bad approach.


----------



## Nifft

BryonD said:
			
		

> Unless one can "prove" the completely subjective idea of art not being simply influenced but fully representative of anime in Hussar's mind then they are wrong to suggest that any influence is present at all.  That is a rigged game.



 Well, he's already accepted one, so that's at least an indication of good faith.

Other than that, all I can say is that he's not going to make any money off me by being right, so it costs me very little to assume he's doing this free of bad intent...

Well, one last thing: it's been an enjoyable discussion, and even though I have an opinion on the matter, I've learned a bunch about D&D art, comic books, and what people think of as anime.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## BryonD

Nifft said:
			
		

> Well, he's already accepted one, so that's at least an indication of good faith.
> 
> Other than that, all I can say is that he's not going to make any money off me by being right, so it costs me very little to assume he's doing this free of bad intent...
> 
> Well, one last thing: it's been an enjoyable discussion, and even though I have an opinion on the matter, I've learned a bunch about D&D art, comic books, and what people think of as anime.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



I could say pick the three numbers between 1 and 10 that I'm think of.  Accepting one as right wouldn't get anyone a tiny bit closer to getting a check.
I'm fine with whatever Hussar's opinion is.  I don't care.  
But if the claim is that no one meeting his challenge establishes the least little bit of a point, then it is completely false.

I'm sure there is plenty to be learned in the many posts here.  I'm just pointing out that the supposed "contest" has not a little meaning, but none whatsoever.


----------



## BryonD

Let me clarify:

Hussar can be completely honest in that HE doesn't accept the idea of anime influence.  I'm quite willing to accept that.  But the way the contest is being presented any other view need not apply.  So it becomes a self-fulfilling deal.


----------



## Nifft

BryonD said:
			
		

> I'm sure there is plenty to be learned in the many posts here.  I'm just pointing out that the supposed "contest" has not a little meaning, but none whatsoever.



 I disagree, because Hussar isn't the only one in the thread whose judgment counts.

Even if it's a rigged contest, that's mostly irrelevant to me -- I don't care if Hussar accepts the arguments, I want to see them so *I* can decide if *I* accept them or not. And I'm pretty sure everyone else following the thread will be making up his or her own mind, too.

So you're not really helping us "free our minds". You're just stopping a discussion (which might have been over anyway, I dunno). :\

Oh well, -- N


----------



## Nifft

BryonD said:
			
		

> Let me clarify:
> 
> Hussar can be completely honest in that HE doesn't accept the idea of anime influence.  I'm quite willing to accept that.  But the way the contest is being presented any other view need not apply.  So it becomes a self-fulfilling deal.



 Feel free to keep your own score. It can't hurt the discussion, and might add something.

How many images did you see as anime-influenced so far?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## TwinBahamut

BryonD said:
			
		

> That it is easy to set up a rigged game that can't be won.



Then ignore the "game" completely, and just focus on the discussion of the relevant images. In the end, this is just a thread about people making arguments about the influence of anime on D&D art. All Hussar's game is doing is forcing people to post images in this discussion, rather than make arbitrary statements about the "obviousness" of anime influence without any proof. It is just an average "anime influence" thread where people are actually posting D&D art and discussing it.

I have been posting in this thread as much as anyone else, but I really don't care whether or not Hussar evers posts something in his sig, or whether some kind of conclusion is made or not. I'm here because it is fun to analyze images and discuss things in this kind of detail.

Still, I wouldn't phrase this discussion as a "matter of taste". Whether or not someone likes anime influence or not is a matter of taste. I happen to like anime influenced art, and I would be happier if people could find anime-influenced images among D&D art. However, the question of whether or not something is anime-influenced or not is _not_ subject to indivudual taste, it is merely a question of an actual property of the art itself, and can be arrived at through detailed analysis. The only subjective questions are the definition of "anime", and the extent of influence required to make the claim that there is a clear anime influence.

Maybe I should start posting pieces of art I think are _not_ anime influenced at all, and see if arguments could be made that they have anime influence, just to promote some more discussion.


----------



## Hussar

Y'know what, I could have an entire panel of judges and people would still bitch that it's rigged.  You don't like the judging process, TOO BAD.  Not my problem.  I've had enough of trying to defend my little game here.  My ball, my rules.  Don't like it?  There's the door.  That this thread has been starred means that at least some people figure that there's value in this discussion, regardless of my own tastes.

EVERY pic that I've disqualified, I've done so with some pretty rigorous proofs.  No one has challenged them, so I guess I did a pretty good job.  When people talked about the warforged being inspired by Full Metal Alchemist, I stepped up and showed why, IMO, the warforged is closer to C3PO than that character.  You want to provide actual reasons for what you see beyond "My gut says this is anime", then fine, do so.  Otherwise:

STOP PISSING IN THE POOL!

Thank you.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion.


----------



## Hussar

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> *snip*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things that make this "anime influenced"
> 1. Mid-karate-kick pose
> 2. "Exploding" background
> 3. Mindflayer with twin katanas and bow, ala a samurai
> 4. Mindflayer with impossible to use polearm weapon that has an energy aura
> 5. Ninja toe-boots
> 
> Do I get a point for that?
> DS




Again, I ask the same question:  if the image is depicting a character as described, and that written description is similar to anime tropes, is it inspired by anime?  Our Mindflayer here is a ninja.  So, it makes sense that he's going to be dressed LIKE a ninja.  Also, he's traveling the Plane of Shadow, so, the background is... well... shadowy.  The pose is stock martial arts and can be found in pretty much any comic book.  The energy aura makes sense for a creature that carries a magic weapon with some sort of energy attack (I don't have this book, but, I'll guess that the mind flayer comes with a stock cold weapon of some sort).  As far as the impossible polearm, well, I've seen some collections of polearms in museums that actually look very similar to this.  Granted, the museum was in Korea, so, certainly an Asian flavour to the weapon, but, Asian =/= Anime.

/edit - as far as the pose goes, I just happened to watch 300 last night.  Compare the pose of our Mind Flayer with the young Leonidas pose as he defends himself from the wolf in the beginning of the movie.



Anyone have the MMV so we can compare the image to the actual stats of the creature?


----------



## Scribble

Hussar said:
			
		

> I asked this before and no one answered me, so I'll ask again.  If the thing being described fits a certain artistic style by virtue of its description, can we say that art based on that description is anime inspired?  For example, elves are described as having pointy chins, look effeminate and have overly large eyes.  They've been described this way for 30 years in D&D.  Does that make every pic of elves anime inspired since the features actually resemble anime features?
> 
> I'm not trying to be snarky at all, I'm really curious.




I thought people already did explain this?

The answer to your question is no. Elves have been drawn all through those 30 years of description and not all of them have had what appears to be Anime/Manga influence.

The answer lies within the proportions, and perspective of the subjects in the image.

Again, illustration like all art forms follows a set of rules. Rules that are basically concpets gathered by artists throughout time, and studied, so that the artform can be manipulated, and made to do what the artist wants. (Kind of like magic in D&D. )

If you break the rules you've either messed up the drawing, or you're attempting to use the broken rule to highlight something in your piece. Anime/Manga seems to be almost an embrace of the latter. Stylizing the image with slightly skewed proportions, and perspective in order to highlight features of the character or artwork.


These two "rules" are kind of in bed together. Messing with one can mess with the other as well.

Ever see the old medieval paintings where they didn't know about perspective? Everything looks 2d, and as a result people look either HUGE or super small. 

Now, as for the elves. 

Ever see a person with a pointy chin in RL?

Ever see an effeminate man?

They people exist without being Anime characters come to life. You could also paint them without them appearing to turn into an anime character. The mere idea of pointy chin, big eyes, or overly effeminate men does not indicate Manga. 

It's HOW the proportions are used to depict those features. 

It's when a chin is stylistically TOO sharp. Or the eyes are so big they COULD NOT effectively exist within the perspective of the character. Stylisticaly breaking rules in order to emphasize certain elements.

THAT again is the anime influence in the D&D artwork. The stylistic use of overly sharp features. Of overly large eyes, of overly dramatic poses, and "movements."

Again, I'll state that I don't think any of the artists can be called an ANIME artist. It's just that they styles used in ANime are being used here as well.
It's no wonder either. Anime as an art form has been popular for a while now. Artists feed off of each other for inspiration and training. It's why we have certain "periods" of art.


----------



## Hussar

Now, Scribble, I can totally agree with you on this.  If the "3e art=anime" crowd stopped where you do, I'd have zero problem.  Like you say, art styles feed eachother and crossover is inevitable.  If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the level of anime influence in D&D art is about the same as its influence anywhere else.  That I could agree with.

Unfortunately, most people don't seem to be that reasonable.  For many critics, it seems that anything they don't like = anime and therefore it's bad.

This thread has shown, IMO, that the art isn't *particularly* (and I emphasise that word) influenced by anime.  Yes, there might be a bit here or there, mostly if you tilt your head and squint in a lot of cases.  What I object to is the blanket characterizations we tend to get that 3e art is all anime all the time.  It used to be Dungeonpunk was the word of choice.  Now, Anime is the buzzword.  

For example, the Kelemvor picture above.  I just don't see it.  That's stock comic book.  You can see a face like that in pretty much any Marvel or DC comic book for years.  The proportions look okay to me.  About the only thing that looks possibly anime is the fact that he's somewhat effeminate and looks angsty.

I guess it's a case of people seeing what they want to see.  Myself included.


----------



## Scribble

Hussar said:
			
		

> Now, Scribble, I can totally agree with you on this.  If the "3e art=anime" crowd stopped where you do, I'd have zero problem.  Like you say, art styles feed eachother and crossover is inevitable.  If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the level of anime influence in D&D art is about the same as its influence anywhere else.  That I could agree with.




Not nessisarily. D&D by it's very nature tends to draw on more "pop" type art, comics and such. So in the realm of that, yes, the inspirations and influence I'd say are pretty standard. (Along the level you get with other "pop" stuff like you'd find in hot topic, or similar things aimed at the "younger" crowd... 



> Unfortunately, most people don't seem to be that reasonable.  For many critics, it seems that anything they don't like = anime and therefore it's bad.




I think thats a case that you see in a lot of arguments. I don't get it really... I mean I'm not the worlds biggest fan of anime, but that doesn't make it "bad." Just a style I don't really always favor.

I think part of the problem in this thread is that it's almost submiting to the anime = bad crowd... They say it's anime influenced so it's bad, and you're saying nuh uh... It' almost as if the fans of anime are afraid of admitting there's influences for fear that it can be used against them somehow... (hrmmm a weird parallel to how D&D was can be sort of found there... ) 

I think it's just time for the Anime fans to stand up and say that an Anime influence is a good thing. 



> This thread has shown, IMO, that the art isn't *particularly* (and I emphasise that word) influenced by anime.  Yes, there might be a bit here or there, mostly if you tilt your head and squint in a lot of cases.  What I object to is the blanket characterizations we tend to get that 3e art is all anime all the time.  It used to be Dungeonpunk was the word of choice.  Now, Anime is the buzzword.




Shrug. I don't think you really need to tilt your head and squint really. I agree with you that D&D art isn't Anime. It's not. It's it's own thing really. The artists have their own styles. It's just that they tend to be drawling a lot from the techniques used in Manga. Maybe the current art directors feel that this highlights the "fantasy" nature of D&D? Who knows.  

I think I'd lean towards D&D art leans more towards comic art... (And by that I mean both Western and Eastern comic art forms.) 

It just seems the basic premise of the thread was kind of a loaded argument although I can understand what you were going for.



> For example, the Kelemvor picture above.  I just don't see it.  That's stock comic book.  You can see a face like that in pretty much any Marvel or DC comic book for years.  The proportions look okay to me.  About the only thing that looks possibly anime is the fact that he's somewhat effeminate and looks angsty.




I think I'd have to agree on that one... I mean the case could be made, but I'd say the techinques are definitely way more in line with claassic art.  (and again even western artists break the "rules." It just tends to be more the norm in Manga...

Not sure if he looks angsty, more sad. 



> I guess it's a case of people seeing what they want to see.  Myself included.




Thats why art is so awesome. It can be many different things to many people, and often what the artist sets out to depict isn't what he/she ends up with. 

Anyway, now that I've once again typed way too much...


----------



## Hussar

Hey, no worries Scribble.  This has to be one of the more earnest discussions about D&D art that I've seen in a while.  I freely admit to my ignorance on the topic.  I'm not an artist, nor did I study art history.  I'm just a fan.


----------



## Wolfspider

Teemu said:
			
		

> I don't have the time to read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been posted already, but this picture of Kelemvor - look at his face. That's an anime/manga face.




Not at all.


----------



## Nifft

So. These are all pictures of girls named "Alice". Some are from Western media, some are from Anime.





Just to refresh ourselves on what Anime looks like vs. what Western stuff looks like.

I know 1951 is Western and 2007 is Anime. Anyone care to guess the ones in between?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Cadfan

Scribble said:
			
		

> I think part of the problem in this thread is that it's almost submiting to the anime = bad crowd... They say it's anime influenced so it's bad, and you're saying nuh uh... It' almost as if the fans of anime are afraid of admitting there's influences for fear that it can be used against them somehow... (hrmmm a weird parallel to how D&D was can be sort of found there... )
> 
> I think it's just time for the Anime fans to stand up and say that an Anime influence is a good thing.




I'm willing to do that.  I like anime, I like anime art.  I'd be happy for it to influence D&D art.  I'm all for a big tent art style.

But what I hear a lot of from... lets just say certain people, and certain types of gamers, is a whining "D&D is so _anime_ now!  I hate it!"  These people invariably then point to something that isn't anime.

This indicates to me that what's going on is a certain... its not nerd rage, its more nerd prejudice.  There's a certain mean natured prejudice in calling everything you don't like "anime," and especially in then attempting to insinuate that anyone who likes the things you don't like is a munchkin 12 year old hooked on dragon ball z.

I don't mind seeing people who say that sort of thing called out on the fact that they don't even know what anime art looks like, and are confusing long standing tropes of western fantasy art with art from Japan.  This undercuts their position by revealing that what's really going on is just a knee jerk reaction against new things.


----------



## Hussar

Just as another point, odd proportions doesn't automatically mean anime.  Sometimes, it just means bad.  A case in point is this image by Chris Dien:






There's some really weird proportions going on there.  The image in the book really makes it obvious.  His forearms and hands are just bizarre and his head is weird.  But, it's not a case of anime influence, just, well, poor talent IMO.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Scribble said:
			
		

> I think it's just time for the Anime fans to stand up and say that an Anime influence is a good thing.



I know that I at least have been doing so since the beginning of all of this.


----------



## Raven Crowking

BryonD said:
			
		

> I am thinking of a number.  It is between 1 and 5 (inclusive).
> I will send a check for $100 to the first person to guess the right number.
> If it is Hussar I will send $500.
> Only the first four guesses count.
> 
> I also reserve the right to reject any answers that don't comply with my other rules for this game.




Yeah, obviously I'm the only person who thinks this contest is rigged......


----------



## Raven Crowking

Hussar said:
			
		

> Y'know what, I could have an entire panel of judges and people would still bitch that it's rigged. You don't like the judging process, TOO BAD. Not my problem. I've had enough of trying to defend my little game here. My ball, my rules. Don't like it? There's the door. That this thread has been starred means that at least some people figure that there's value in this discussion, regardless of my own tastes.




I am willing to accept, as I said, even one unbiased judge.  An EN World mod.  A mod from an anime/manga board.  You pick the board if you want; you contact the mod.  If you had one or more unbiased judges, certainly some might claim that the contest is rigged, but at least there would be something to respond to such a claim other than "My ball, my rules".

The problem with telling folks not to piss in the pool is that, from where I (and others) stand, the water was pretty murky from post one.



> EVERY pic that I've disqualified, I've done so with some pretty rigorous proofs. No one has challenged them, so I guess I did a pretty good job.




Of course, this might be the root of the problem.

From where I sit, you haven't supplied even moderately rigorous proofs, and I question how well you've read anyone else's posts in this thread if you are unaware that your "proofs" have been challenged.

While I am more than willing to say that a DM can play any game he wants, if he thinks that his game is "proving" something, I am certainly allowed to dispute that claim.

RC


----------



## Raven Crowking

Hussar said:
			
		

> I'm sure that if my judgement is too partial, then I'll be properly taken to task for it.




Isn't this what you are now complaining about?


----------



## Maggan

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Isn't this what you are now complaining about?




I have a polite request.

Could you take the complaints about the "competition" to a seperate thread? Maybe in meta?

I quite like reading the discussion about art, and looking at the examples and forming my own opinion about what the level of anime influence is in 3e D&D art.

The cries of foul and rigged competition or whatnot has been duly noted. Several times. And again a few more times.

Now please let the discussion go on.

/M


----------



## AllisterH

The belief that 3E art is animeified might also because there aren't as many painted pictures as before. That might be a factor we're not considering.

EDIT: Didn't Caldwell, Easley, Elmore and Parkinson all work in paints?


----------



## Jedi_Solo

Maggan said:
			
		

> I have a polite request.
> 
> Could you take the complaints about the "competition" to a seperate thread? Maybe in meta?
> 
> I quite like reading the discussion about art, and looking at the examples and forming my own opinion about what the level of anime influence is in 3e D&D art.
> 
> The cries of foul and rigged competition or whatnot has been duly noted. Several times. And again a few more times.
> 
> Now please let the discussion go on.




I second the motion on the floor.

I'm reading the thread for the discussion on the supplied pictures, not the discussion of the sig that is up for grabs.


----------



## Mad Mac

> I know 1951 is Western and 2007 is Anime. Anyone care to guess the ones in between?




  The bottom 3 are all classical anime styles. The only one that makes me hesitate is the 1983 pic...


----------



## Scribble

AllisterH said:
			
		

> The belief that 3E art is animeified might also because there aren't as many painted pictures as before. That might be a factor we're not considering.
> 
> EDIT: Didn't Caldwell, Easley, Elmore and Parkinson all work in paints?




Yes, I know Elmore for one used paint mainly. I know there are a few (at least) 3e artists who also use paint as a medium.


----------



## AllisterH

Scribble said:
			
		

> Yes, I know Elmore for one used paint mainly. I know there are a few (at least) 3e artists who also use paint as a medium.




Only one I know of in 3E that isn't a holdover from previous editions is Michael Cormack (sp?) the guy who drew the Caves of Chaos picture in the PHB2.


----------



## Scribble

AllisterH said:
			
		

> Only one I know of in 3E that isn't a holdover from previous editions is Michael Cormack (sp?) the guy who drew the Caves of Chaos picture in the PHB2.




Wayne Reynolds uses Acrylics.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> The bottom 3 are all classical anime styles. The only one that makes me hesitate is the 1983 pic...



I'm going to make a guess and say that the 1983 pic is from the anime "World Masterpiece Theater" series, the decades long project about making anime adaptations of various books from around the world. I am pretty sure Hayao Miyazaki worked a lot in that in his early years before Studio Ghibli.

At the very least, the art style in the 1983 pic is similar to the World Masterpiece Theater style.

But that guess is a stab in the dark.

Edit:Okay, a short investigation later, and it turns out my guess was wrong, but was close. The 1983 anime "Alice in Wonderland" was not part of World Masterpiece Theater, but shared creative staff with that series.


----------



## Geron Raveneye

Yeah, I was about to say that the 1983 version of Alice definitely was drawn by japanese, simply because there was a big influx of japanese adaptions of children stories into german TV back then...Pinoccio, Maja the Bee, Alice in Wonderland, and a whole slew of others were shown here along with Captain Future.


----------



## Hussar

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> *snip*
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, this might be the root of the problem.
> 
> From where I sit, you haven't supplied even moderately rigorous proofs, and I question how well you've read anyone else's posts in this thread if you are unaware that your "proofs" have been challenged.
> 
> While I am more than willing to say that a DM can play any game he wants, if he thinks that his game is "proving" something, I am certainly allowed to dispute that claim.
> 
> RC




Well, passive/agressive snark regarding my reading skills aside, if you have a specific issue you'd like to discuss, then, by all means do so.  Otherwise, simply making vague allusions to things that are apparently not self-evident isn't all that constructive don't you think?

Look other than a couple of posters, most people don't seem to have a problem here.  My suggestion is that if you have a problem, please ignore the thread and leave it for another time.  Or, better yet, start your own thread.  If you have anything constructive to add, please do so.


----------



## Hussar

Just as a clarification, in case it wasn't obvious.

The challenge isn't to convince someone else.  The challenge is not to convince Pirate Cat or some unknown mod or even you (whoever you are reading this).  No, the challenge is, can you make a strong enough argument to convince ME.  That's what makes me your sig slave.  Am I an unbiased judge?  Dunno.  Don't care.  Not my problem.  The challenge is to make an argument that is strong enough to convince ME.

There's no universality to this.  I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm just showing, quite well IMO, that those who claim the strong anime influences in D&D art don't really know what they're talking about.  Is there an anime influence?  Quite probably.  But, no more so than the influence of anime on any other pop media.

Yet, we never hear people make that complaint.  "D&D art is SO Marvel Comics"  "D&D art looks too much like Frank Miller" are just things that so called critics never say.  No, it's "D&D art is anime crap".  Even when it's not.


----------



## Maggan

Hussar said:
			
		

> But, no more so than the influence of anime on any other pop media.




To me, D&D art is sooooo Andy Warhol!   

Great thread, btw!

/M


----------



## jasin

How about this?

Look at her oversized eyes, sharp little nose, spikey hair...


----------



## Branduil

Nifft said:
			
		

> So. These are all pictures of girls named "Alice". Some are from Western media, some are from Anime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to refresh ourselves on what Anime looks like vs. what Western stuff looks like.
> 
> I know 1951 is Western and 2007 is Anime. Anyone care to guess the ones in between?
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Objection! None of the 2002 girls are Alice, at least not yet.


----------



## Sir Sebastian Hardin

Teemu said:
			
		

> I don't have the time to read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been posted already, but this picture of Kelemvor - look at his face. That's an anime/manga face.




This is the clearest anime-style example. It doesn't have huge eyes, but in most anime-styles, mature men are drawn with small, serious eyes, like this one's.

This, and the horrible tieflings from page 9 are the most anime-ish of all the images posted.


----------



## Maggan

Sir Sebastian Hardin said:
			
		

> This is the clearest anime-style example.




Wow. That just shows how little I know of anime. I would never have called that picture anime. All I think of is Artesia (http://www.artesiaonline.com).

Indeed, looking at the Artesia site, it's the same artist. Never knew that qualified as anime. Live and learn, I guess.

/M


----------



## Raven Crowking

Hussar said:
			
		

> Am I an unbiased judge?  Dunno.  Don't care.  Not my problem.  The challenge is to make an argument that is strong enough to convince ME.




and



> I'm not trying to prove anything.




directly contradict



> I'm just showing, quite well IMO, that those who claim the strong anime influences in D&D art don't really know what they're talking about.




So, the answer is, I don't believe that any argument is strong enough to convince you.   That does not mean that I agree that "those who claim the strong anime influences in D&D art don't really know what they're talking about".  

Certainly, if you were honest about your challenge, the opinion of an unbiased and knowledgeable judge _*ought to be sufficient*_ to sway your opinion as to whether "those who claim the strong anime influences in D&D art don't really know what they're talking about" or not.  I know it would sway my opinion.

In conclusion, you are certainly in your rights to keep your contest however you like.  So long as you maintain that you're "showing...that those who claim the strong anime influences in D&D art don't really know what they're talking about", though, I'm going to continue pointing out that your biased demonstration does nothing of the kind.

RC


----------



## Sir Sebastian Hardin

Maggan said:
			
		

> Wow. That just shows how little I know of anime. I would never have called that picture anime. All I think of is Artesia (http://www.artesiaonline.com).
> 
> Indeed, looking at the Artesia site, it's the same artist. Never knew that qualified as anime. Live and learn, I guess.
> 
> /M




Well... it does look consistent with his other work... I guess it just looked anime-ish.


----------



## Nifft

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Certainly, if you were honest about your challenge, the opinion of an unbiased and knowledgeable judge _*ought to be sufficient*_ to sway your opinion as to whether "those who claim the strong anime influences in D&D art don't really know what they're talking about" or not.  I know it would sway my opinion.



 How's your poll thing doing? Did your board buy the anime influence argument? How long is left?

 -- N


----------



## Mad Mac

The poll is currently 9 to 1 against the pictures posted looking like anime. Almost all opinions posted on the thread say the pictures look like something taken from an American or European comic book.


----------



## WizarDru

Sir Sebastian Hardin said:
			
		

> Well... it does look consistent with his other work... I guess it just looked anime-ish.



 I've always seen Smylie's Artesia as being heavily influencd by Milo Manara's artwork.
Manara from the 1970s/80s:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Smylie from the 1990s/2000s:


----------



## Raven Crowking

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> The poll is currently 9 to 1 against the pictures posted looking like anime. Almost all opinions posted on the thread say the pictures look like something taken from an American or European comic book.




Yup.

I would personally like a larger number of voters, but I would have to say, based on the Tokyopop forum, that the first three pictures are not anime-ish enough to qualify.  Tokyopop's forum validates Hussar on those.

I would be quite willing to agree, too, that if this thread doesn't contain it yet, it probably isn't going to found.

The only exception is the ravid, which looks a lot like an anime creature to me.  I am specifically thinking of the dragon in _Spirited Away_.


----------



## Nifft

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> The only exception is the ravid, which looks a lot like an anime creature to me.  I am specifically thinking of the dragon in _Spirited Away_.



 Aw hell, if all Asian dragons count as anime, you don't have to look farther than the Gold Dragon.

He's even got a fu-manchu.

 -- N


----------



## Klaus

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I've always seen Smylie's Artesia as being heavily influencd by Milo Manara's artwork.
> Manara from the 1970s/80s:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smylie from the 1990s/2000s:



 And Milo Manara is always a Good Thing (tm).


----------



## AllisterH

Nifft said:
			
		

> Aw hell, if all Asian dragons count as anime, you don't have to look farther than the Gold Dragon.
> 
> He's even got a fu-manchu.
> 
> -- N




Welll that's kind of weird though given that the gold dragon at least in the 2E MM was noted as appearing wingless. I think in the 1E MM as well, it was noted that the Gold Dragon could appear wingless and had the Fu-Manchu look.

Dragons in anime actually have two stylizations.

1. Western Dragon a la the dragons from Slayers/Record of Lodoss Wars. Basically, anything set in a setting more akin to medieval fantasy Europe with knights/kings/plate mail is going to look like the typical Red Dragon you see in the MM.

2. Eastern Dragons a la the Dragons from Dragonball (Z) and Inuyasha. If set in a fantastic Asia, the dragon will look closer to a Ravvid/Linnorm/Gold Dragon.

Anime/Manga writers tend to keep the two separate.


----------



## Nifft

My point was: does "anime" encompass all Asian mythology and history, or is it restricted to stylizations typical of Asian cartoons within the last ... I dunno, 20 years? 30 years?

If "anime" is allowed to mean "historical Asian dragons", then the Ravid is in, as is the Gold Dragon dating back to 1e.

In either case IMHO the influence for the Ravid (and Gold Dragon) can be traced to Asian mythology and artwork much older than anime. Lethe-boy from Spirited Away can trace his character design back to the same source.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Danzauker

Nifft said:
			
		

> So. These are all pictures of girls named "Alice". Some are from Western media, some are from Anime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to refresh ourselves on what Anime looks like vs. what Western stuff looks like.
> 
> I know 1951 is Western and 2007 is Anime. Anyone care to guess the ones in between?
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Well, from 1983 (Fushigi No Kuni No Alice - The Wonderful World Of Alice), all pictures seem obviously anime.

1951 is Disney, everybody knows that. 1966 Western

All earlier, well, it's hard to define something "anime" when animation as we know it didn't exist yet.

Frankly, it seems to me a big 80% or more in this forum is almost completely unknowing of what anime or manga is...


----------



## Hussar

jasin said:
			
		

> How about this?
> 
> Look at her oversized eyes, sharp little nose, spikey hair...




Nice picture.  Where's it from?  And, is that cropped from a larger picture?  I think I'd like to see the original before making any sort of judgement.

RC - Spirited Away was released in July 2001 in Japan (I assume later in the States) and the original 3.0 Monster Manual, where you pic comes from, came out in October 2000.  That would make the chance for a Miyazaki inspiration somewhat problematic.  

*Agrees with Klaus that Manara is a very good thing.*


----------



## Raven Crowking

Nifft said:
			
		

> In either case IMHO the influence for the Ravid (and Gold Dragon) can be traced to Asian mythology and artwork much older than anime. Lethe-boy from Spirited Away can trace his character design back to the same source.




Yes, but many things in anime have influences that can be traced farther back than the advent of "anime" as an artistic genre.  I agree that it then becomes difficult to determine if the things is influenced by the historical antecedent (as I believe the 1e gold dragon was) or by the current pop culture reference (as I believe the ravid was).

There was a Dragon Magazine article in the lead-up to 3e, where the artistic design for 3e was discussed.  Does anyone remember the issue number?  I don't know if that article would shed light on this discussion or not, but I'd like to check.  

RC


----------



## Nifft

Danzauker said:
			
		

> Frankly, it seems to me a big 80% or more in this forum is almost completely unknowing of what anime or manga is...



 (Psst... that's why it's such a great insult!)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Raven Crowking

Hussar said:
			
		

> RC - Spirited Away was released in July 2001 in Japan (I assume later in the States) and the original 3.0 Monster Manual, where you pic comes from, came out in October 2000.  That would make the chance for a Miyazaki inspiration somewhat problematic.




Good catch.  I didn't know the Japanese release date.

But Spirited Away isn't the only anime to use that sort of design, either.


----------



## Umbran

Danzauker said:
			
		

> Frankly, it seems to me a big 80% or more in this forum is almost completely unknowing of what anime or manga is...




Okay, here's the something that I think RC is trying to get at (but is doing so poorly) that you really ought to be wary of.

One of the top ways to try to win an argument is to dismiss its author, rather than to address the content.  One of the top ways to be dismissive of another person's opinion is to claim they are ignorant.  It is the fast and easy way to try to win an argument - "You don't know what you are talking about, so shut up!"  Needless to say, in a forum dedicated to exchange of ideas, this is not something we like to see. 

Likewise, badgering folks about a topic is also something we don't like to see.

So, let's make a deal (okay, not so much a deal, as an order) - one side can stop calling others ignorant, and the other can back off on demands of rigor and burden of proof.


----------



## AllisterH

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Good catch.  I didn't know the Japanese release date.
> 
> But Spirited Away isn't the only anime to use that sort of design, either.




True, but even there, it depends on the type of anime.

Like I said before, if the anime is set in a medieval/fantasy Europe, then the dragons (if any) will look more like the dragons we in the West are used to. See for example the dragons in both Record of Lodoss Wars and Slayers, two anime that use European mythology/fantasy.

Compare this with Inuyasha and Fushi Yugi, both of these anime are set in a Feudal mythological/fantasy japan and china respectively, and the dragons there tend to be wingless AND have the fu-manchu moustache to boot.


----------



## Danzauker

Umbran said:
			
		

> Okay, here's the something that I think RC is trying to get at (but is doing so poorly) that you really ought to be wary of.
> 
> One of the top ways to try to win an argument is to dismiss its author, rather than to address the content.  One of the top ways to be dismissive of another person's opinion is to claim they are ignorant.  It is the fast and easy way to try to win an argument - "You don't know what you are talking about, so shut up!"  Needless to say, in a forum dedicated to exchange of ideas, this is not something we like to see.
> 
> Likewise, badgering folks about a topic is also something we don't like to see.
> 
> So, let's make a deal (okay, not so much a deal, as an order) - one side can stop calling others ignorant, and the other can back off on demands of rigor and burden of proof.




Well, actually, I don't think ignorant is an offence.

We are ALL born ignorant, Me, you, everybody else. And we learn along the way.

To be ignorant simply means that "you don't know".

Everybody has his or her field of knowledge. Someone can be the greatest mathematician of the world, and still don't know everything about cooking.

I have been watching anime and reading comics for 30 years, give or take, and I quite think I have a good grasp of anime as a style and of it's evolution.

There are lots of people here that are quite competent in RPGs, and I bet lots that are also competent in their work and other fields.

But since reading the WHOLE thread I noticed a lot of "OMG this elf has ears 10% longer than Elmore's, it MUST be anime!" posts, I came to the conclusion that few people are competent in japanese animation and comicdom.

That was my point... sorry it offended you.


----------



## Geron Raveneye

Well, for what it's worth (and because I did post critical posts here earlier concerning the whole motivation for the thread), I agree with Hussar that, while there may be some influences from anime and manga found in D&D artwork from the last 10 years, there most likely isn't any picture that qualifies as "pure anime" when taken into context with stuff like Inu Yasha, Lodoss war, Slayers, or even most Ghibli movies.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Danzauker said:
			
		

> But since reading the WHOLE thread I noticed a lot of "OMG this elf has ears 10% longer than Elmore's, it MUST be anime!" posts, I came to the conclusion that few people are competent in japanese animation and comicdom.
> 
> That was my point... sorry it offended you.




It didn't offend me.  One of the things I learned on this thread, thanks to the Tokyopop poll, was that none of the 1st three pictures posted has enough anime influence to be considered so by the people there.

I _know_ that I am far from an authority on the subject!

RC


----------



## Klaus

Hussar said:
			
		

> Nice picture.  Where's it from?  And, is that cropped from a larger picture?  I think I'd like to see the original before making any sort of judgement.
> 
> RC - Spirited Away was released in July 2001 in Japan (I assume later in the States) and the original 3.0 Monster Manual, where you pic comes from, came out in October 2000.  That would make the chance for a Miyazaki inspiration somewhat problematic.
> 
> *Agrees with Klaus that Manara is a very good thing.*



 If I had to guess, that picture comes from a larger WAR cover to an Eberron book. Either that or Pathfinder.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Umbran said:
			
		

> So, let's make a deal (okay, not so much a deal, as an order) - one side can stop calling others ignorant, and the other can back off on demands of rigor and burden of proof.




I am not sure which side is which here, though, so perhaps it would be best if both sides stopped calling others ignorant, and backed off on demands of rigor and burden of proof?

RC


----------



## epochrpg

Hussar said:
			
		

> There's no universality to this.  I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm just showing, quite well IMO, that those who claim the strong anime influences in D&D art don't really know what they're talking about.  Is there an anime influence?  Quite probably.  But, no more so than the influence of anime on any other pop media.
> 
> Yet, we never hear people make that complaint.  "D&D art is SO Marvel Comics"  "D&D art looks too much like Frank Miller" are just things that so called critics never say.  No, it's "D&D art is anime crap".  Even when it's not.




I never heard the argument that anime influenced D&D art until I saw this thread!  Btw, hilarious thread.


----------



## WayneLigon

Hussar said:
			
		

> One decent example.  Only one.  Out of all the art to choose from.




Indeed. I think you might be the first person to hands-down win an internet arguement  I mean, I think I've seen more than anyone's fair share of anime art and I'd even be hard-pressed to consider _that _ one specifically anime-styled. _Perhaps_, 'influenced'.


----------



## Raven Crowking

How about this, from the Rules Compendium?


----------



## Raven Crowking

Big Eyes, Small Mouth?


----------



## Raven Crowking

DBZ-style hair?






(Water effect, I know, but I couldn't help commenting....)


----------



## Raven Crowking

Some very strange body proportions:


----------



## AllisterH

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Some very strange body proportions:




This looks like someone trying to ape Brom and I agree, that body is damn elongated...Still that doesn't seem "anime" to me as such weird body length seems more like one artist's style.

That said, the first picture with the ice demon (?) in the ice caves is to me, has a clear manga influence.


----------



## areola

This is a very good thread. Now as an Asian, I actually hate Anime based drawings. I feel its too overrated. I prefer good old western style fantasy art. Going through the pages of this thread made me realize how many anime-influenced art are actually around in DnD. Damn. 2nd ed art was the best in my opinion. 

And whats with Mialee? Is she meant to be an Ugly hero? Even with charisma 8, which is pretty average for a commoner, her pics are really horrid. Aren't there suppose to be no ugly elves?


----------



## blargney the second

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

>



That's got nothing to do with anime and everything to do with badly aging transvestite elf dudes.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> Then ignore the "game" completely, and just focus on the discussion of the relevant images. In the end, this is just a thread about people making arguments about the influence of anime on D&D art. All Hussar's game is doing is forcing people to post images in this discussion, rather than make arbitrary statements about the "obviousness" of anime influence without any proof. It is just an average "anime influence" thread where people are actually posting D&D art and discussing it.




The thread has indeed done what it set out to do, which is demonstrate that so-called "obvious" anime influences are anything but.  We can't even get consensus on three pictures, so how can we generalize about the entire body of WotC artwork?


----------



## Nifft

blargney the second said:
			
		

> That's got nothing to do with anime and everything to do with badly aging transvestite elf dudes.



 I can't un-see it. 

Darn you to heck, -- N


----------



## Scribble

blargney the second said:
			
		

> That's got nothing to do with anime and everything to do with badly aging transvestite elf dudes.




Don't forget the weird fish love going on in that pic...


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Scribble said:
			
		

> I think part of the problem in this thread is that it's almost submiting to the anime = bad crowd... They say it's anime influenced so it's bad, and you're saying nuh uh... It' almost as if the fans of anime are afraid of admitting there's influences for fear that it can be used against them somehow... (hrmmm a weird parallel to how D&D was can be sort of found there... )
> 
> I think it's just time for the Anime fans to stand up and say that an Anime influence is a good thing.




If you look, you'll see that I state early in the thread that I have a positive opinion of anime-style artwork, and would like to see more anime influence in WotC art, but am generally disappointed in that respect.  I'd be the first to celebrate a move toward anime-styled artwork, as I did back when Races of Faerun gave me a taste of something they didn't follow up on, but there is no indication that they want to take the art in that direction.


----------



## Anti-Sean

Scribble said:
			
		

> Don't forget the weird fish love going on in that pic...


----------



## Raven Crowking

areola said:
			
		

> Going through the pages of this thread made me realize how many anime-influenced art are actually around in DnD.




Welcome to the boards!

I don't mean to be rude, but could you give us specific examples of where you see anime influence?  Without specifics, your opinion is no better than that of anyone else on this thread, and I am especially leery of accepting the opinion of what might be an Alt of someone else in this discussion at face value.  Especially given the appearance of such an Alt on the Tokyopop boards.

Thank you.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> The thread has indeed done what it set out to do, which is demonstrate that so-called "obvious" anime influences are anything but.  We can't even get consensus on three pictures, so how can we generalize about the entire body of WotC artwork?




If lack of consensus proved that _anything_ wasn't "obvious", then the Interweb itself would prove that nothing is "obvious" (including that nothing is obvious, obviously).    

Nice try, though!    

Cheers!

RC


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Maggan said:
			
		

> Wow. That just shows how little I know of anime. I would never have called that picture anime. All I think of is Artesia (http://www.artesiaonline.com).
> 
> Indeed, looking at the Artesia site, it's the same artist. Never knew that qualified as anime. Live and learn, I guess.
> 
> /M



Someone had better let Mark Smylie know.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Anti-Sean said:
			
		

>




+Rep.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Yup.
> 
> I would personally like a larger number of voters, but I would have to say, based on the Tokyopop forum, that the first three pictures are not anime-ish enough to qualify.  Tokyopop's forum validates Hussar on those.
> 
> I would be quite willing to agree, too, that if this thread doesn't contain it yet, it probably isn't going to found.
> 
> The only exception is the ravid, which looks a lot like an anime creature to me.  I am specifically thinking of the dragon in _Spirited Away_.



Two points:
1. The ravid predates that movie by a year
2. It reminds me of a chinese dragon, which is probably the reason it reminds you of the chinese dragon from Spirited Away.


----------



## blargney the second

Nifft said:
			
		

> I can't un-see it.
> 
> Darn you to heck, -- N



My work here is done.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> If lack of consensus proved that _anything_ wasn't "obvious", then the Interweb itself would prove that nothing is "obvious" (including that nothing is obvious, obviously).
> 
> Nice try, though!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> RC



Actually, I'm of the opinion that very little is obvious, which explains the social sciences, natural sciences, and art and literary criticism.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm of the opinion that very little is obvious, which explains the social sciences, natural sciences, and art and literary criticism.




And game design!


----------



## Geron Raveneye

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> How about this, from the Rules Compendium?




At first glance I thought "Yep, could be in some manga or anime with mediocre artists". Then I recalled the heaps of bad comic books I read way before manga made its way to Europe, and I have to admit it could just as well be from one of the thousands of mediocre wanna-be superhero books that flooded the comicscape 25 years back.


----------



## blargney the second

Yeah, that one says comic book to me as well.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> At first glance I thought "Yep, could be in some manga or anime with mediocre artists". Then I recalled the heaps of bad comic books I read way before manga made its way to Europe, and I have to admit it could just as well be from one of the thousands of mediocre wanna-be superhero books that flooded the comicscape 25 years back.



I'm thinking it's more BD than anime.  There are some elements of the character design on the elf that might be loosely construed as anime (mostly her eyebrows), but overall it makes me think of BD.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Comic book or anime?


----------



## Nifft

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> How about this, from the Rules Compendium?



 You're violating the rules by not telling us what you see, but whatever. I'll take a stab.

- There's an anime / manga trope that powerful effects cause rocks to slowly rise, and here we see small globules of ... something ... slowly rising.

- Cleverly incorporated "movement lines" -- the movement lines themselves aren't particularly manga, but their magnitude may be. That left-hand slash is occupying the whole width of the panel, and implies a bunch of off-panel movement.

- The ice critter's inking seems manga-esque. The bold black patches seem atypical of Western comic book art.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Raven Crowking

Comic book or anime?


----------



## Nifft

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

>




I'm 100% certain this one is anime.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## blargney the second

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Comic book or anime?



Looks like it ought to be in Heavy Metal, so I'm going to have to go with comic book on that one.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Yes, but many things in anime have influences that can be traced farther back than the advent of "anime" as an artistic genre.  I agree that it then becomes difficult to determine if the things is influenced by the historical antecedent (as I believe the 1e gold dragon was) or by the current pop culture reference (as I believe the ravid was).
> 
> There was a Dragon Magazine article in the lead-up to 3e, where the artistic design for 3e was discussed.  Does anyone remember the issue number?  I don't know if that article would shed light on this discussion or not, but I'd like to check.
> 
> RC



For the sake of this discussion, the only reasonable thing to do is completely seperate _Anime_ from Asian. If you assume that _anything_ of Asian influence is an anime influence, then _of course_ you will find anime influence. But that is about as useful as saying that anyone using New York as the setting for a novel was possibly influenced by Spiderman comics. It is impossible to sort through, and not necessarily true.

The only useful thing to do would be focus on the well-defined history of anime itself. Anime is an art form which started in the mid 1960s with the work of Osamu Tezuka and his contemporaries. His manga, and the first TV series based on his manga, are the origin point of all midern manga and anime. If we are going to say anything useful about anime at all, we need to limit our discussion to the particular set of Japanese animated shows that hail from that tradition.

After all, if you start talking about _asian_ influences, it leaves me perfectly free to counter with "Hong Kong kung-fu films" and you _can't_ counter that. If you claim that something is anime-influenced, and I provide an alternative source of influence, it weakens your argument. If you talk about something specific to anime, then I don't have such an easy way to counter your argument.

So anyways, other than vague similarities to traditional asian mythological creatures, there is nothing "anime" about the ravid. Not anime.

The Ice Creature in that one picture reminds me of the ice creature in Disney's Hercules movie. Other than that I say the pose is not anime-influenced, and I can't really say concerning the elf girl. I guess she might be more of an anime elf... Not a bad picture, even though I can't figure out what is supposed to be going on.

I don't see what is supposed to be anime-influenced in the sunset picture.

Mialee is the anti-existence to anime elves. Further, I demand that you atone for the crime of inflicting one of the _ugliest_ Mialee images upon us. That kind of art makes me wish for greater anime influence even more.


----------



## Cadfan

I was going to guess,

1) Indeterminate but probably comic book.
2) Anime
3) Anime
4) Anime
5) Comic book

But then I noticed that you can right click on your images and get the answer, and now no one will believe my answers represent an honest opinion.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Nifft said:
			
		

> I'm 100% certain this one is anime.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




You're right.

Of course, the challenge on the others is to not check the image tags!    

My point is that, if you cannot be 100% certain looking at something that it is one or the other, that one could be the other shouldn't invalidate it.  There is a serious amount of crossover between the two in modern comics, especially as computer colorization causes comics artists to render with fewer lines (more akin to the way cells are drawn for animation).

RC


----------



## Raven Crowking

Cadfan said:
			
		

> But then I noticed that you can right click on your images and get the answer, and now no one will believe my answers represent an honest opinion.





Sure they will.  #2 is a Marvel comic.

RC


----------



## Nifft

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Of course, the challenge on the others is to not check the image tags!



 I knew before hitting "reply".

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Raven Crowking

Nifft said:
			
		

> I knew before hitting "reply".




That's why I said "the others"!    

Honestly, I imagine that the VHD picture would have been better recieved in the PHB than some of what is in there.

RC


----------



## TwinBahamut

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> You're right.
> 
> Of course, the challenge on the others is to not check the image tags!
> 
> My point is that, if you cannot be 100% certain looking at something that it is one or the other, that one could be the other shouldn't invalidate it.  There is a serious amount of crossover between the two in modern comics, especially as computer colorization causes comics artists to render with fewer lines (more akin to the way cells are drawn for animation).
> 
> RC



Actually, you totally failed to make your point.
1)Not anime.
2) Kinda looks like Witchblade, which is both, interestingly enough. More anime than comic book though,
3)Stop stealing bandwidth.
4)Anime
5)Comic book

And no, I didn't check tags. It is apparent.

As for the picture with the birds... It looks _heavily_ influenced by traditional Japanese art (is it an image from an adaptation of the weaver's story?). Traditional Japanese art is completely different from anime. So, to answer "comic book or anime", I say neither.


----------



## Nifft

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> That's why I said "the others"!



 Ah, I read that as "the other PEOPLE".

Anyway. Post why you think those things are anime.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Raven Crowking

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> If you claim that something is anime-influenced, and I provide an alternative source of influence, it weakens your argument.




But it doesn't invalidate my argument.



> If you talk about something specific to anime, then I don't have such an easy way to counter your argument.




For example, the "slowly rising something" Nifft mentions in this post:  http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3834523&postcount=508 ?

It would help if we could first decide what was "specific to anime" and not to, say, comics?



> I don't see what is supposed to be anime-influenced in the sunset picture.




Do you see what is supposed to be anime-influenced in _any_ of the pictures?



> Further, I demand that you atone for the crime of inflicting one of the _ugliest_ Mialee images upon us.




(Shudder)

You've got me dead to rights on that one.


----------



## Raven Crowking

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> As for the picture with the birds... It looks _heavily_ influenced by traditional Japanese art (is it an image from an adaptation of the weaver's story?). Traditional Japanese art is completely different from anime. So, to answer "comic book or anime", I say neither.




Comic book.

RC


----------



## blargney the second

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> (Shudder)
> 
> You've got me dead to rights on that one.



Less shuddering, more atoning.   (The boob shirt in offering #2 was a good start.)


----------



## Kafen

Kunimatyu nailed Bishoujo anime style with his first pic. 

Wow, so many options. Anyways, I would look to the Complete Divine for anime style artwork. Page 165 has a pretty solid anime image that I recall offhand. Page 155..or was it 156..has another good example. The artists in that one tend to a lot of anime style images. All you need to do is locate the artists and pick through books with their work in it. Wayne Reynolds has a strong anime flare to his work, and he provides lots of images as an example of such artists.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Comic book.
> 
> RC



Err, so what? I never professed to be an expert of any kind about western comic books. I don't read them at all. I only ever see them when I go to a local comic shop to buy manga. The important points of my argument, that it looks inspired by traditional Japanese art, and it doesn't have any anime influence, still stand.

Right now, what are you trying to prove? Either you are trying to deny there is any difference between comic book art and anime, or you are trying to claim that none of the people on the "denying anime influence" side know what they are talking about. Regardless, you are not being clear about your point _at all_, and it is getting annoying.

This is a discussion about anime influence on _D&D_ art, not comic book art. Either post images from D&D, and discuss thier possible anime influence, or post examples from anime or comic books in conjunction with an explicit discussion of how they relate to the topic at hand. Anything else isn't useful or interesting.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Cadfan said:
			
		

> I was going to guess,
> 
> 1) Indeterminate but probably comic book.
> 2) Anime
> 3) Anime
> 4) Anime
> 5) Comic book
> 
> But then I noticed that you can right click on your images and get the answer, and now no one will believe my answers represent an honest opinion.



I thought the same, except for the 3rd with the "server" thing, which I couldn't identify clearly. (Unless you say that a server name containing anime is anime inspired artwork)

Damn, Murphy's Law destroyed any credibility to our answers.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Kafen said:
			
		

> Kunimatyu nailed Bishoujo anime style with his first pic.
> 
> Wow, so many options. Anyways, I would look to the Complete Divine for anime style artwork. Page 165 has a pretty solid anime image that I recall offhand. Page 155..or was it 156..has another good example. The artists in that one tend to a lot of anime style images. All you need to do is locate the artists and pick through books with their work in it. Wayne Reynolds has a strong anime flare to his work, and he provides lots of images as an example of such artists.



Can someone find links to these pictures? My Complete Divine is ~60 km away...


----------



## Moon-Lancer

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> How about this, from the Rules Compendium?




something about this look very korean.


----------



## WhatGravitas

To be fair, that's not a WotC art piece, but one commisioned by Paizo. It's from Dragon #324 (Oct 04), pg. 58 in the article "Chilled to the Bone" and the beastie is a "Black Ice Golem".

EDIT: It's by Udon Crew, Paizo commissioned them very often. WotC just re-used it.

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Doug McCrae

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> #2 is a Marvel comic.



The Marvel Mangaverse Black Cat.

"The series depicts an alternate Marvel universe in which the characters are drawn and portrayed in a *Manga-like* style."


----------



## Kafen

To be fair, WOTC used it, Lord Tirian. You can not change the qualifiers to exclude a legit piece without voiding the contest.


----------



## darkseraphim

A few more of possible interest.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

darkseraphim said:
			
		

> A few more of possible interest.




This artiest is already tagged as an anime style (so far the only one i think) so why are you re using the artiest work and calling it anime when its already acknowledge?


----------



## Moon-Lancer

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> To be fair, that's not a WotC art piece, but one commisioned by Paizo. It's from Dragon #324 (Oct 04), pg. 58 in the article "Chilled to the Bone" and the beastie is a "Black Ice Golem".
> 
> EDIT: It's by Udon Crew, Paizo commissioned them very often. WotC just re-used it.
> 
> Cheers, LT.




to be fair, i would like to see more work like this in d&d books. ROLW-FTW


----------



## darkseraphim

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> This artiest is already tagged as an anime style (so far the only one i think) so why are you re using the artiest work and calling it anime when its already acknowledge?




Because I believe the challenge calls for 3 examples of anime art, not 3 examples of anime artists.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

darkseraphim said:
			
		

> Because I believe the challenge calls for 3 examples of anime art, not 3 examples of anime artists.




I don't see it that way. if your pegging the art, your pegging the artiest as well. they are all the same example


----------



## TwinBahamut

Of the most recent three, I can see the anime influence in the first two, but not as much in the third. At the very least, the facial expression on the flame guy is a pretty classic manga "really angree/frustrated" expression. Of course, there is a heavy influence on the guy's work from traditional D&D art, but I will acknolede the anime influence in these two pictures. Of course, this is the same artist who gave us the crazy anime tiefling, so I suppose it isn't a big surprise. Amusingly, I think the person to the right of the flame guy is supposed to be a girl, but is drawn like a "feminine" guy would be drawn in an anime, down to the pose and expression.

Also, the Ice Monster and Elf picture was made by the Udon Crew? I guess that tips the balance pretty squarely into the "anime-influenced" category. Making comic books based on Japanese anime and videogame properties is their main gimmick. It isn't pure anime-style by a long shot, but it is _heavily_ influenced.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

so quick question. is my artwork anime? would you call my artwork anime if it was in a d&d book? (yeah i know, plugging my art... lame)


----------



## TwinBahamut

Your art looks like the good stuff to come out of Disney.

Since disney style and anime style share the same roots, I guess you cna say it looks like anime. You do pretty good work.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> The Marvel Mangaverse Black Cat.
> 
> "The series depicts an alternate Marvel universe in which the characters are drawn and portrayed in a *Manga-like* style."




Yup.  And my point is that there is quite a bit of cross-over.

Most of the comics pictures were done for Crossgen Comics, which was itself an attempt to mimic the success of Manga.  Much of the art of certain series (Meridian, Mystic) was intentionally anime-esque.


----------



## Klaus

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> so quick question. is my artwork anime? would you call my artwork anime if it was in a d&d book? (yeah i know, plugging my art... lame)



 I'd peg it as more Charles Vess (The Raven Banner, Stardust, all manner of awesomeness) more than anything.

Great work!


----------



## AllisterH

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> something about this look very korean.




That Ice-demon picture was made by UDON studios. I thought UDON was made up of Korean-American artists?

UDON studios basically is the first choice for American companies that want a mangaesque style.


----------



## Kafen

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> Of the most recent three, I can see the anime influence in the first two, but not as much in the third. At the very least, the facial expression on the flame guy is a pretty classic manga "really angree/frustrated" expression. Of course, there is a heavy influence on the guy's work from traditional D&D art, but I will acknolede the anime influence in these two pictures. Of course, this is the same artist who gave us the crazy anime tiefling, so I suppose it isn't a big surprise. Amusingly, I think the person to the right of the flame guy is supposed to be a girl, but is drawn like a "feminine" guy would be drawn in an anime, down to the pose and expression.
> 
> Also, the Ice Monster and Elf picture was made by the Udon Crew? I guess that tips the balance pretty squarely into the "anime-influenced" category. Making comic books based on Japanese anime and videogame properties is their main gimmick. It isn't pure anime-style by a long shot, but it is _heavily_ influenced.




Pretty much, I would say the contest is over outside of the people that do not want to admit the anime influence. Sure, people could apply qualifier after qualifier to avoid "losing", but the multiple examples speak for themselves.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

Klaus said:
			
		

> I'd peg it as more Charles Vess (The Raven Banner, Stardust, all manner of awesomeness) more than anything.
> 
> Great work!




thank you very much for your kind words. it means alot coming from you. 

So I in this argument i guess I'm in the center on this debate. I don't care of d&d art uses anime influenced artwork in its books. What i do care about is people using the misconception that anime is inherently bad.

all I care about is that the d&d artwork is good. That its visually stimulating and gets me in the mood to play d&d. This could be through hyper realism, this could be through extreme anime fantasy, or this could be through boob armer. its all good in my opinion. I think the d&d artwork should have a strong identity and I think this identity should be expressive about what d&d is. I think whatever path d&ds art chooses to be, it should excel. If it becomes too mixed it could loose its self identity like i feel 3.0 and 3.5 did. 

thats it really.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

AllisterH said:
			
		

> That Ice-demon picture was made by UDON studios. I thought UDON was made up of Korean-American artists?
> 
> UDON studios basically is the first choice for American companies that want a mangaesque style.




is UDON Korean? i don't know, I just guessed. It looked Korean to me.


----------



## AllisterH

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> is UDON Korean? i don't know, I just guessed. It looked Korean to me.




Well, what do you know...I thought UDON was an American company but apparently it isn't that far from where I live. Richmond Hill, Ontario is relatively local for me.

Yeah, basically, if the piece is an UDON piece then yeah, we're definitely taljking manga influence.


----------



## Pale

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> I don't see it that way. if your pegging the art, your pegging the artiest as well. they are all the same example




Not really, many artists change their style frequently depending on what the customer asks for. And the original post asked for three examples of art. Not three artists. Whether you think art = artist or not is irrelevant.

As an aside, I like the piece of art that you posted but it's not in my tastes for a D&D book, it looks very cell-shaded, more like a still from a film than a sketch or painting (which is what I like). As, say, a poster: way cool. My only gripe is that his left arm looks like it's hyper-extended at the shoulder for some reason.

But like I could do any better. *laugh* My brother sucked up all the artistic talent in my family... the bastich.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Kafen said:
			
		

> Pretty much, I would say the contest is over outside of the people that do not want to admit the anime influence. Sure, people could apply qualifier after qualifier to avoid "losing", but the multiple examples speak for themselves.



Hah, hardly.

Even if Hussar calls the contest (which he might, since we _finally_ found three examples), I am still going to hold that D&D does not have a distinct anime influence. We found 3-6 or so images with anime influence, with 3 of those all being from the same artist, out of _how many_ unconvincing pieces of art? The lack of examples is what speaks for itself.

If Hussar does call the contest, I am just going to start my own thread, and approach this whole thing from a perspective which is nowhere near as a favorable to the pro-anime influence perspective, because, face-it, just finding three examples of something amidst the huge amount of 3E D&D art is pretty easy to do, as far as contests like this go. Anything easier to find would be over in a matter of hours.

So, basically, no one has convinced me in the slightest that there is a huge anime influence on D&D. Admitably, I didn't realize there was _any_ anime influence on D&D, and learned there was in this thread. I am glad. I hope there is a lot more in the future. I also learned that a lot of people making the claim don't seem to have a clear idea of what anime art is actually like.

At this rate, I forsee this debate lasting until 4E is released. Maybe until 5E is released, and all western art is completley subsumed under the anime style.


----------



## Sabathius42

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> I also learned that a lot of people making the claim don't seem to have a clear idea of what anime art is actually like.




Speed Racer is anime.  Ninja Scroll is anime.  Speed Racer and Ninja Scroll are not very similar to each other.  Anime isn't something you can sum up in few rules.  Saying anime influenced can mean "People have rediculously large eyes and small mouths" as well as it can mean "The artwork is more fluid and less static" or "Sword slashes are never animated, you only show an after-swing shot with a movement arc indicating where the sword slashed".  

The art style label "Anime" really means about as much as the music genre label "Alternative".  Is Nirvana an "Alternative" band, or is it "Grunge", or is it "Rock"?  It could be all three and neither depending on the listeners definition.

My own personal defintion of Anime clearly says that the 3.5 Mind Flayer pic I posted earlier has many influences.  Others see none at all.  Neither is right and neither is wrong, since both are just offering their opinion.

DS


----------



## Zamkaizer

darkseraphim said:
			
		

>



I'm going to go ahead and say that these two shouldn't count, simply because in the Races of Faerun art gallery on wizards - the source of these images - they're right next to the Tiefling illustration posted earlier. I mean, it's one thing to post stuff by the same artist, but at least find material from a different book, yeah?

As for moon-lancer's illustration, it doesn't resemble anime or manga at all. Consider:

- The facial features are more or less normal, and though I'm terrible at this sort of thing, the proportions look normal as well.
- The coloring is too complex for animation, and unlike most colored manga illustrations, isn't done with watercolors or markers.
- The linework is too simple for manga, and too complex for animation.
- Finally, he doesn't look ridiculous - though he might be a bit of a bishi...


----------



## TwinBahamut

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> Speed Racer is anime.  Ninja Scroll is anime.  Speed Racer and Ninja Scroll are not very similar to each other.  Anime isn't something you can sum up in few rules.  Saying anime influenced can mean "People have rediculously large eyes and small mouths" as well as it can mean "The artwork is more fluid and less static" or "Sword slashes are never animated, you only show an after-swing shot with a movement arc indicating where the sword slashed".
> 
> The art style label "Anime" really means about as much as the music genre label "Alternative".  Is Nirvana an "Alternative" band, or is it "Grunge", or is it "Rock"?  It could be all three and neither depending on the listeners definition.
> 
> My own personal defintion of Anime clearly says that the 3.5 Mind Flayer pic I posted earlier has many influences.  Others see none at all.  Neither is right and neither is wrong, since both are just offering their opinion.
> 
> DS



I can't say that I like the idea that the difference between anime and not-anime is _just opinion_. If there are reasons for an opinion that are tied to the relevent pieces of art, then there is something absolute that can be discussed.

I hope you don't mind if I ignore the music analogy, since I don't listen to much music (other than videogame/anime remixes and classical stuff). I don't have a clue what "Alternative" or "Grunge" music are supposed to sound like.

Also, I am not claiming that anime is perfectly uniform and can be figured out with 100% reliability using an easy checklist. Of course Ninja Scroll and Speed Racer are not the same (even if you ignore the historical drift in anime styles), but they were both created in the same enviroment of self-sustaining art styles (the Japanese anime industry). Because of that common origin, where many artists influenced each other and shared the same inspiration, there are similarities. These similarities are worth mentioning.

To use some examples I am more familiar with, early middle-ages Norman churces and late middle-ages gothic cathedrals are tremendously different in every detail, but they both come from an ancient tradition of church design, so they are virtually identical in many fundamental and important ways, and they are completly different from temples built in different parts of the world for different religions.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

Zamkaizer said:
			
		

> - Finally, he doesn't look ridiculous - though he might be a bit of a bishi...




ah, you caught me... the jig is up


----------



## Hussar

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> To be fair, that's not a WotC art piece, but one commisioned by Paizo. It's from Dragon #324 (Oct 04), pg. 58 in the article "Chilled to the Bone" and the beastie is a "Black Ice Golem".
> 
> EDIT: It's by Udon Crew, Paizo commissioned them very often. WotC just re-used it.
> 
> Cheers, LT.




I thought I'd seen that before.  I was unaware that they had recycled the art.  However, Paizo art was previously disqualified, so, I'm going to stand by that.  However, I was unaware that WOTC was borrowing Paizo art since they had never done so before.  Considering the Rules Compendium is one of the last 3e WOTC books, I'm going to say that it's not really in the running.

And, yes, I know that's lame.  :\  

Now, the three tiefling pics.  Well, again, is it anime when you actually draw the creature as described?  I mean, I could point to Di Terlizzi art of tieflings that look very close to those.  But, yeah, I'll buy that artist has some pretty heavy anime leanings.  Tell you what, gimme some more time with those and I'll get back to you.  I'm going to put them in a "strong possible" category if that's ok.


----------



## Kafen

So, you change the rules when people meet the challenge. :O Interesting...

TwinBahamut, It is like I said. People that want to look down on anime will use qualifier after qualifier to disregard proofs - be it either changing the rules of the contest AFTER proofs are in submission or blatant disregard of evidence. So, yeah - really... There is no hardly about it. The proof is there when y'all decide to admit the loss.


----------



## Maggan

Kafen said:
			
		

> So, yeah - really... There is no hardly about it. The proof is there when y'all decide to admit the loss.




The proof of what? That there are some art pieces that are inspired by anime? I don't think anyone is contesting that.

That D&D 3e art in general is styled after anime? I've seen no proof of that. What Hussar does and does not accept, is up to him.   

/M


----------



## Kafen

Sure, it is up to Hussar. But, he issued a challenge and listed requirements that are currently met. He can hardly claim to be serious about the challenge if he changes the rules AFTER people provide legit examples, though. 



			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> Ok, since I cannot give donuts, I have a new reward.
> 
> To anyone who can find three examples of anime art from any WOTC Dungeons and Dragons book, I will add the following to my sig for a year:
> 
> ____________ is the greatest god(dess) of gaming and has proven me to be the biggest schmuck of the internet.  They have defeated my anime challenge and I hereby declare that 3e art is fully inspired by anime.
> 
> How's that?
> 
> So, to anyone, please, let's see it.
> 
> If, however, after one month, no one can find three examples, then all who take the challenge shall SHUT THE **** UP about anime in 3e art forevermore.
> 
> So, are you hard enough?




Proof of what? Proofs that meet the challenge of the OP...unless there are "more rules" and qualifiers you care to apply in order to "not lose". Keep in mind, there is a huge difference between debating anime art and this contest.


----------



## Maggan

Kafen said:
			
		

> there is a huge difference between debating anime art and this contest.




So I've gathered. I think this thread should be split into two threads; one for discussing the "rules for the competition" and one discussing the actual "submissions to the competition".

I find one fun and interesting, and the other not so.

/M


----------



## Kafen

I enjoy talking about anime, myself. The debate about what makes anime is pretty clear when you define anime by its roots. Anime is basically animations stemming from Japan that date back to the 1920s or so. You have people that say it goes back further than the 20s, but I have never seen the pics for it. Exact dates aside, it is Japanese artists copying western animation methods. It is a clear cut definition of anime. 

When you limit the debate in this thread to a simple definition of anime without the angst of bias, it is a great example of wishful thinking to claim that modern character art does not include anime throughout the range of books under the WOTC label. Check out the gallery of Wayne Reynolds - a previous example - on the web for example. It shows lots of anime style art. Gallery two has several images which fit the OPs criteria for this contest.


----------



## Wolfspider

Those three just posted don't seem anime to me.  If anything, the proponderence of pouches in the last two makes me think of Rob Liefeld.  Ugh.

In any case, I think that the OP has made his point quite nicely.


----------



## JediSoth

I've enjoyed reading this thread so far (and certainly, the art discussions are more entertaining than anything I was subjected to in college). It kills me how seriously some people are taking the "competition" to get into Hussar's sig. It's a freakin' Internet message board sig, not the Louvre galleries.

JediSoth -- with nothing constructive to add to the discussion


----------



## Nifft

Maggan said:
			
		

> So I've gathered. I think this thread should be split into two threads; one for discussing the "rules for the competition" and one discussing the actual "submissions to the competition".



Threads about threads have a warm, friendly home.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Raven Crowking

Hussar said:
			
		

> Ok, since I cannot give donuts, I have a new reward.
> 
> To anyone who can find three examples of anime art from any WOTC Dungeons and Dragons book, I will add the following to my sig for a year:
> 
> ____________ is the greatest god(dess) of gaming and has proven me to be the biggest schmuck of the internet.  They have defeated my anime challenge and I hereby declare that 3e art is fully inspired by anime.
> 
> How's that?
> 
> So, to anyone, please, let's see it.
> 
> If, however, after one month, no one can find three examples, then all who take the challenge shall SHUT THE **** UP about anime in 3e art forevermore.
> 
> So, are you hard enough?




Just so we are clear what the original rules were.  The contest was "three examples of anime art from any WOTC Dungeons and Dragons book", the time limit was a month, and now both have been accomplished, regardless of whether or not Hussar later moved the bar.

The only question now is, will he keep his word?


----------



## Cadfan

What were the three, Raven Crowking?

I have to admit though, that he's come out of this thread looking a lot prettier than those who went into it proclaiming that D&D was turning anime.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Cadfan said:
			
		

> What were the three, Raven Crowking?
> 
> I have to admit though, that he's come out of this thread looking a lot prettier than those who went into it proclaiming that D&D was turning anime.




(1)  Tiefling image,
(2)  Image by UDON Studios, (meets original conditions, which state nothing about the art being reused from Paizo, and nothing about when the 3e book came out) (Hussar on his "disqualification" of image:  "I know that's lame.")
(3)  Multiple pieces by same artist as tiefling image.  (Hussar:  "I'll buy that artist has some pretty heavy anime leanings."  Yet he needs "more time with those" and he'll "get back to you.")

That's more than three by my count.

I am curious, though, exactly who went into this contest "proclaiming that D&D was turning anime"?  I must have missed that post.


----------



## Arnwyn

Cadfan said:
			
		

> I have to admit though, that he's come out of this thread looking a lot prettier than those who went into it proclaiming that D&D was turning anime.



Which was nobody, since the OP couldn't even substantiate _that_ (though I'm curious to see 3 examples of such claims... oh, *ahem*).

This thread is one giant strawman.

Let's just be _very_ clear here:
1) Some people think there is an anime influence in "D&D" or "3e" (_never_ "WotC", incidentally - suggesting otherwise is flat-out dishonest).
2) We've seen examples of anime influence in "D&D" and "3e" in this very thread. Paizo, by the way, is - by definition - considered "D&D" and "3e" (again: no one will ever find a complaint that says something along the lines of "WotC is too anime!"). In any case, the use/re-use of UDON in even one WotC product seals it.
3) Anime-influenced artwork seems to be extremely rare, as somewhat reasonably shown by this thread over the period of time this thread has existed.
4) Some people consider that what anime-influenced artwork there is, is already too much _for them_, and thus they make their complaint.

The only thing that can be up for debate is #4: whether those who make the complaint are being reasonable... and trying to debate someone's personal preferences (even if it is a rather creepy pasttime here at ENWorld) won't get anyone very far (Hussar's completely nonsensical "challenge" notwithstanding [don't feel like you need to respond and beat your dead horse, Hussar - you can ignore me just as well as anyone, thanks]).



(But I'll comment just for fun anyways, since it's slow at the office today: I _do_ think that any complaints about anime in D&D are completely unreasonable! There is simply too little to be material in any way [even if there were triple or quadruple etc examples in this thread] and thus complaining about such a tiny number probably means one is too difficult to please overall.)


----------



## Rel

Raven Crowking, your .sig is uncalled for.  Change it immediately and don't post any more in this thread.  This is not a request.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Kafen said:
			
		

> So, you change the rules when people meet the challenge. :O Interesting...
> 
> TwinBahamut, It is like I said. People that want to look down on anime will use qualifier after qualifier to disregard proofs - be it either changing the rules of the contest AFTER proofs are in submission or blatant disregard of evidence. So, yeah - really... There is no hardly about it. The proof is there when y'all decide to admit the loss.



Wait, what? Are you labelling me as "someone who looks down on anime"? Err... You seem to be totally misunderstanding my purpose in this thread.

I am claiming that there is currently no significant anime influence on D&D art. I am mostly doing so in the vain hope that some of the people who complain about the "ugly anime influence ruining D&D" would leave one of my hobbies alone for a while. I really like anime art, and would love to have more D&D art be more anime-style. However, I don't think it is anime-style currently, and thus the word "anime" should not be applied to the many problems of bad 3E art.

I am pretty sure a lot of us here are all of that same opinion.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> 4) Some people consider that what anime-influenced artwork there is, is already too much _for them_, and thus they make their complaint.
> 
> The only thing that can be up for debate is #4: whether those who make the complaint are being reasonable... and trying to debate someone's personal preferences (even if it is a rather creepy pasttime here at ENWorld) won't get anyone very far (Hussar's completely nonsensical "challenge" notwithstanding [don't feel like you need to respond and beat your dead horse, Hussar - you can ignore me just as well as anyone, thanks]).
> 
> 
> 
> (But I'll comment just for fun anyways, since it's slow at the office today: I _do_ think that any complaints about anime in D&D are completely unreasonable! There is simply too little to be material in any way [even if there were triple or quadruple etc examples in this thread] and thus complaining about such a tiny number probably means one is too difficult to please overall.)



I think the problem is not that people are complaining about the anime that is actually in D&D art. Instead, the problem is that people are complaining about the anime art which _does not in fact exist_. Namely, people claiming that inconics like Krusk or Hennet are anime, and using them to denounce the "anime influence". Since Krusk and Hennet are demonstratably _not_-anime in style, that is a problem.

The few pieces of art in D&D that are obviously anime influenced have not been mentioned on an anime thread on EN World _ever_. This thread is the first time even I have seen them.


----------



## Kafen

TwinBahamut, nah.. The topic is a challenge. It is not a fair challenge if the OP raises the standards everytime people meet his reqs. Other than that, I am not trying to imply anything about your intent, no offense intended. 

"ugly anime influence ruining D&D"

Woah, where did that train come from? :O  As an artist, I have to say there is no way to ruin something by creating new art. On a personal level, I have to say that one of my first posts on this forum was an anime image along with a map way back in the day. I got all kinds of feedback on it. Did anime influence my art? Yup..  Did anime ruin my art? Nope... 

Here is a question to ask yourself and anybody that thinks anime art is ruining your day.  Has any of the poorest drawings ever printed in books stopped people from buying books? If the answer is yes, I humbly submit that the problem is not with the art. It is one thing if the book contains hundreds of typos, but a couple of BESM images have no bearing on literary content at the end of the day in my opinion.


----------



## Maggan

Kafen said:
			
		

> Woah, where did that train come from? :O




You seem to have missed many of the "3e D&D art is anime and the game sucks because of it" posts that litter the internet.

Count yourself lucky.   

/M


----------



## Nifft

Maggan said:
			
		

> You seem to have missed many of the "3e D&D art is anime and the game sucks because of it" posts that litter the internet.



 On this site, that idea was pretty rampant until this very thread.

So thanks, Hussar.

(Incidentally, it's nice if the "too anime" thing were really able to be curtailed by this sort of examination -- the "too videogame" thing that happened last edition stuck around forever.)

Cheers -- N


----------



## Kafen

Ah, I see... I was mostly AFK in regards to the site for a while as you can see from my registration date. The last time I posted, the site was doing its first donation drive, and I shelled out some cash. *hides*  Err - onto the art topic, I suppose there will always be people that dislike anime. I defer to the wisdom of the forum regulars as to the particulars.


----------



## WizarDru

Kafen said:
			
		

> Ah, I see... I was mostly AFK in regards to the site for a while as you can see from my registration date. The last time I posted, the site was doing its first donation drive, and I shelled out some cash. *hides*  Err - onto the art topic, I suppose there will always be people that dislike anime. I defer to the wisdom of the forum regulars as to the particulars.




That would explain much.  For the last year, in particular, there has been more than a little vocal debate not just about anime art, but that anime's style (and as Nifft points out 'videogames') have strongly influenced D&D...and never for the better.

I've been an anime fan since 1978.  Because of that, I think I have a pretty good perspective of what kind of influences anime has wrought and has had wrought upon it.  It would ridiculous to say that a lot of current comic book and fantasy art has not felt the influence of anime and manga.  We saw American comic book artists (Frank Miller being the first very visible example) being heavily influenced by Japanese influences (note Miller's covers for the US versions of Lone Wolf & Cub, for example).

I can certainly understand that many people find most or all anime unappealing, in the same way some folks find the Brothers Hildebrant or WAR's work unappealing.  What I take objection to is the intimation that somehow D&D has internalized, both in art and rules design, some nebulous concept of what the derogatory commenter considers to be 'anime'...and when called on it hedges, hems and haws.  I don't like all anime universally, any more than some folks approve of every fantasy author or science fiction movie.  In fact, as anime's visibility and availability have risen (and as I have grown older), I find there are many series that I really don't like AT ALL.  But no one ever claims that D&D became to 'Star Warsy', 'Star Treky' or too 'Peter Jacksony', despite many people not liking those particular things.  No one even claims that D&D became too 'GURPSy' or 'Science Fictiony', for that matter.  But 'anime' or 'videogamey'?  Apparently that's easy.  However, many of the rules and ideas that are put forth as examples of an 'anime' influence have their direct antecedents in other game systems, stretching back for over 20 years, well predating the rise in popularity of anime in the US.

The point being is that whenever these terms are flung around in this manner, it's often short-hand for 'something that I don't like', instead of being an accurate representation of the material at hand.  When many people say that don't like D&D 3.x because it's become so influenced by anime, what they really mean is '_I remember seeing an episode of Dragonball Z or Naruto and it was ridiculous with all those super-powers and so forth and didn't like it all and all this stuff like feats and prestige classes and other assorted rules are just as bad_'.  No one appears to be claiming that D&D is becoming like Death Note, Gantz, Love Hina, Monster, BlackJack, Cowboy Bebop, Haruhi Suzumiya's Melancholy, Claymore or a hundred other shows.  'D&D as anime' critics often try to act as though these are rare exceptions, despite the fact that they are phenomenally popular.

What's more ironic is that more than a few anime shows list D&D as their roots, not the other way around.  Record of Lodoss War (in all it's incarnations) is based on a series of novels that are themselves based on a series of house-ruled D&D games.  Shows like Slayers and Those Who Hunt Elves are more D&D parodies, but they clearly shows their roots.  Shows like Beserk and Claymore fit right in to the D&D genre (although Claymore is more like True20/fantasy M&M) and again take direct inspiration _from_ D&D.  Certainly the whole idea of western-style fantasy didn't really take off with any sort of volume in anime until AFTER D&D was a national craze in the US.

The point being that some it's OK for folks to not like anime, it's OK for folks not like an edition of D&D...heck it's even OK to claim that anime has changed D&D.  But don't be surprised when some folks who are familiar with both are going to question that assertion and refute it.


----------



## Prince of Happiness

Vincent Van Gogh is clearly anime influenced, so he sucks. Don't tell me that it's _ukiyo-e_ or something...it's clearly furrin' so it's Wrongbadart.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

WizarDru said:
			
		

> That would explain much.  For the last year, in particular, there has been more than a little vocal debate not just about anime art, but that anime's style (and as Nifft points out 'videogames') have strongly influenced D&D...and never for the better.
> 
> *snip*
> 
> The point being that some it's OK for folks to not like anime, it's OK for folks not like an edition of D&D...heck it's even OK to claim that anime has changed D&D.  But don't be surprised when some folks who are familiar with both are going to question that assertion and refute it.



[/thread]


----------



## Hussar

Kafen said:
			
		

> Ah, I see... I was mostly AFK in regards to the site for a while as you can see from my registration date. The last time I posted, the site was doing its first donation drive, and I shelled out some cash. *hides*  Err - onto the art topic, I suppose there will always be people that dislike anime. I defer to the wisdom of the forum regulars as to the particulars.




Heh, AFK in THIS account anyway.

*wink and throws a root.*

Guys, look, sorry, I'm not backing out.  Just got INSANELY busy around here and will be so for a while long.  I'm NOT reneging.  I just don't have time right now.  When I've got a bit of free time I'll get back to this.

As far as moving the bar goes, I haven't made ANY decision, one way or another, so, please, feel free to continue posting examples, add anything constructive, but, please, leave the discussion of the actual final decision alone for the moment.  As I say, I'm not backing out, and I'm not finished yet.  Just REALLY, REALLY busy.

Sorry for the delay :\


----------



## Kafen

I only have this account on En World. 4e research for my tabletop group is the only reason I came back. 

Eh, I wish you luck with this one, Hussar. Some people are going to disagree regardless of your take on it, methinks.


----------



## Singing Smurf

WizarDru said:
			
		

> That would explain much.  For the last year, in particular, there has been more than a little vocal debate not just about anime art, but that anime's style (and as Nifft points out 'videogames') have strongly influenced D&D...and never for the better.
> 
> <snipped much quality verbiage>
> 
> The point being that some it's OK for folks to not like anime, it's OK for folks not like an edition of D&D...heck it's even OK to claim that anime has changed D&D.  But don't be surprised when some folks who are familiar with both are going to question that assertion and refute it.




This summarizes my feelings on the matter much better than I could have.  Thanks!

(maybe this should be Hussar's new .sig)


----------



## MoogleEmpMog

Sadly, I really think the terms of Hussar's challenge HAVE been met by any fair standard.

If it had been FIVE pieces of art, it would be a tough call.  TEN (out of the multiple hundreds produced for 3.5) would have been out of the question.

But three?  This thread HAS managed to dig up three with significant anime influence, including the UDON one that would be at home in a (really high quality, admittedly) actual manga.

Hussar, I would suggest you put the promised line in your .sig, but frame it in such a way that it can clearly be seen as sarcastic hyperbole, with a link to the findings in this thread.  That would follow both the letter (find three pieces of anime-influenced art) and the spirit (actually demonstrate significant anime influence) of the competition, no?


----------



## Zamkaizer

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Gantz




Oh god, I would hope D&D isn't being influenced by that trash. I thoroughly enjoyed your post though, sir.


----------



## Hussar

Phew.  Sorry about the delay folks.  I've been busier than all get out the last little while.  Honestly, this is the first chance I've had to sit down and finish this off.  Again, apologies for the delay.

Let us recap shall we?  To start things off, this was the original challenge:



> To anyone who can find three examples of anime art from any WOTC Dungeons and Dragons book, I will add the following to my sig for a year:
> 
> ____________ is the greatest god(dess) of gaming and has proven me to be the biggest schmuck of the internet. They have defeated my anime challenge and I hereby declare that 3e art is fully inspired by anime.




So, we had to find three images that were not just sort of anime looking, but, really anime looking (or manga looking if you prefer).  There were many entries and some close shaves.  In the end, it was the following images that seemed to have generated the most consensus:

In no particular order:

1.  An image of a tiefling from Races of Faerun.  Definitely on board with this one.  Dark Seraphim scores one.  There were two other posted with this image, but, the first was straight up comic book and the third lacked any real anime styling.






2.  We have another by the same artist from Races of Faerun.  While it's a bit wonky, it's a fair cop.  Props to Zamkaizer for spotting this one.






3.  This one got kind of buried way back, but, I think it deserves to be considered a positive.  Its from the Player's Guide to Eberron.  Props to Deekin for this find.






We had a couple of close calls that were later disqualified.


1.  A reprint from Paizo, which WOTC had never done before and I suspect was done because of the ending of 3e.  The fact that this image was released after I started this is also something of a strike against it.  Obviously, I could not comment on anything released in the future, only in the past.  So, sorry, this one, while definitely showing anime influence, is disqualified.  






2.  A gnome alchemist from Races of Stone - was later shown to be pretty much standard short arse proportions as seen in artists like Hildebrant.






There are probably other images, but, I've spent enough time looking around.

Ok, so, the challenge was answered.  There were definitely three examples found.  However, I can't really declare any single winner since the challenge was to find 3 examples, not find one at a time.  And, I know that people are going to scream bloody murder about this, but, no one poster actually answered the challenge.  So, I will amend my sig, but, not quite in the way that the challenge specified.  

I did learn a fair bit from this thread though.  For one, people tend to see anime where it really isn't.  Also, I think it's pretty safe to say that D&D art is about as anime influenced as any other pop art form.  At the end of the day, I think it's safe to say:

*Myth Busted*


----------



## The Merciful

Hussar for the win!


----------



## ptolemy18

Hussar said:
			
		

> If, however, after one month, no one can find three examples, then all who take the challenge shall SHUT THE **** UP about anime in 3e art forevermore.




I wish there was *more* anime/JRPG-influenced art in D&D products. Not the perky kiddy dopey Yugioh/Dragon Quest/Slayers type, or the too-derivative-of-D&D Record of Lodoss War type, but the painterly illustrator-ly Yoshitaka Amano/Secret of Mana/Final Fantasy/Tales of Phantasia style.

You can all throw rotten fruits and vegetables at me now, since D&D fandom seems to have almost no overlap with anime/manga fandom, as evinced by this thread.  But actually, I think that core D&D has managed to remain remarkably free of manga and anime influence, for better or worse. Is this partially because tabletop RPGers resent the success of Japanese console RPGs? I dunno. Personally, if I was at Wizards and I thought I could turn more of those people into tabletop RPGers by copping a more anime/manga/JRPG style, I'd jump all over that. (But realistically, there is certainly more to it than art style.)

Actually, the guy who's doing the 4E core rulebooks, what'shisname, looks very modern-American-comics-influenced to me. All those yelling faces and dramatic poses and sharp angles and a general "YAAAARGGGHH!!" attitude. Whereas in the more high-end Japanese console RPG products, you often get this very baroque, classical, stately "and now the saga begins" artwork (at least on the boxes). Hmm.


----------



## ptolemy18

WizarDru said:
			
		

> But no one ever claims that D&D became to 'Star Warsy', 'Star Treky' or too 'Peter Jacksony', despite many people not liking those particular things




I will now fulfill the prophecy by saying that D&D4E is, IMHO, possibly going to be "too Star Warsy" (influenced by Star Wars Saga edition, emphasis on heroic fantasy over other, less heroic types of fantasy...)


----------



## Arcturion

Last time I checked, anime was simply a medium with a whole slew of sub-genres (ranging from the ultra slick realism to the cutesy super deformed, with everything in between from serious drama to silly comedy). You might as well call D&D as television, or D&D as motion picture. And as a medium, anime is just Japanese made (a relative term since most in-betweening animation is done overseas in Korea anyway, both Japanese and American) or Japanese-inspired animation, and as animation, is just used to tell a story as any other medium like CGI or live action.

If anything, the examples used are either inspired more by video games (most of which are made in Japan coincidentally) and/or comic books; I'd say those two have more an influence on the more recent D&D art than anime or manga.

The first picture is of a fire and water gensai, as I recall, not tieflings. The fire gensai looks a bit like Akuma/Gouki from the Street Fighter games, if anything, but how much different can one draw a creature based on fiery elemental and/or fiendish progenitor? There's also a bit of Joe Madueira thrown in there (the Western artist of Battlechasers, Spawn, Spiderman, etc.), particularly with the oversized and exaggerated hands, and again, this is more comic book than anime.

I don't see anything too distinctive anime-wise in the second picture with the tieflings, except maybe the dynamic poses, but this isn't an anime-only theme. The third is definitely has more in common with Western style comic book art than anime/manga art. The subject simply has Asian-themed clothing and a martial artist type stance to it, which do not automatically make it anime/manga, as someone already pointed out.

The fourth picture seems more comic bookish to me, while the last one appears to be generic interior D&D art and nothing more.

So unless WotC starts hiring well known (published) manga artists to start doing D&D art, I don't think anime is an issue at all in the artwork. As far as the rules are concerned, that's a whole other ball game (and having nothing to do with anime but rather D&D's strategic war game roots). The new direction with the new 4e classes (predefined niches and party roles and such) seems more video game-ish to me (ex. World of Warcraft), and again, is not necessarily tied with anime.

I think people simply just see what they want to see.


----------



## Hussar

I've learned a couple of things from this thread.  One is that people, and I include myself in here sometimes, conflate subject with style.  There were a few pics posted, a ninja illithid and a ravid, which people pointed to as being anime styled.  The problem is, simply creating a picture that is based on Asian ideas doesn't make a picture anime any more than creating a picture of a Roman legionnaire precludes anime styling.  Just because something has ninja boots on doesn't mean that it's anime.  Heck, I WORE ninja boots last week in a local festival.  

Another thing I learned is that some people really have a tough time articulating why they feel a given example is anime styled or not.  I think the idea of anime has invaded gamer culture to the point where people simply reactionarily term something they don't like as "anime".  It doesn't really matter to them if they are using the term correctly or not, it's just a word that means, "something I don't like."  As such, it's mostly meaningless, like "dungeonpunk" and "video gamey".  

The third thing I learned is that when running a game online, people are REALLY REALLY bitchy about the rules.


----------



## Geron Raveneye

And just to contrast with some artwork that can be found on japanese rolelplaying books, in order to round out the thread...
The cover of the japanese _Call of Cthulhu_ book.





Got to say, this one reminds me a lot of Silent Hill...Harry Mason and his daughter fighting the Great Old Ones? Sounds like a great story.  

The cover of the Arianrhod RPG





And for some more, simply go here

I think we can definitely say that THAT kind of anime hasn't touched D&D yet...although the CoC cover would look plenty cool, and not like anime at all.


----------



## hazel monday

Hussar said:
			
		

> I've learned a couple of things from this thread.  One is that people, and I include myself in here sometimes, conflate subject with style.  There were a few pics posted, a ninja illithid and a ravid, which people pointed to as being anime styled.  The problem is, simply creating a picture that is based on Asian ideas doesn't make a picture anime any more than creating a picture of a Roman legionnaire precludes anime styling.  Just because something has ninja boots on doesn't mean that it's anime.  Heck, I WORE ninja boots last week in a local festival.
> 
> Another thing I learned is that some people really have a tough time articulating why they feel a given example is anime styled or not.  I think the idea of anime has invaded gamer culture to the point where people simply reactionarily term something they don't like as "anime".  It doesn't really matter to them if they are using the term correctly or not, it's just a word that means, "something I don't like."  As such, it's mostly meaningless, like "dungeonpunk" and "video gamey".





What I've learned from this thread, is that  on the internet,even when presented with evidence to the contrary, people will declare their argument to be unassailably correct.  I've learned that people will discount the opinions and positions of others without a second thought, and then blithely go on to belittle those who don't agree with them.

Oh wait, I already knew that. Nope, I didn't actually learn anything from this thread.


----------



## Zogmo

Phew.  Sorry about the delay folks.  I've been busier than all get out the last little while.  Honestly, this is the first chance I've had to sit down and finish this off.  Again, apologies for the delay.

Let us recap shall we?  To start things off, this was the original challenge:




			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> So, we had to find three images that were not just sort of anime looking, but, really anime looking (or manga looking if you prefer).  There were many entries and some close shaves.  In the end, it was the following images that seemed to have generated the most consensus:
> 
> In no particular order:
> 
> 1.  An image of a tiefling from Races of Faerun.  Definitely on board with this one.  Dark Seraphim scores one.  There were two other posted with this image, but, the first was straight up comic book and the third lacked any real anime styling.
> 
> 
> 2.  We have another by the same artist from Races of Faerun.  While it's a bit wonky, it's a fair cop.  Props to Zamkaizer for spotting this one.
> 
> 
> 3.  This one got kind of buried way back, but, I think it deserves to be considered a positive.  Its from the Player's Guide to Eberron.  Props to Deekin for this find.
> 
> 
> We had a couple of close calls that were later disqualified.
> 
> 
> 1.  A reprint from Paizo, which WOTC had never done before and I suspect was done because of the ending of 3e.  The fact that this image was released after I started this is also something of a strike against it.  Obviously, I could not comment on anything released in the future, only in the past.  So, sorry, this one, while definitely showing anime influence, is disqualified.
> 
> 
> 
> 2.  A gnome alchemist from Races of Stone - was later shown to be pretty much standard short arse proportions as seen in artists like Hildebrant.
> 
> 
> There are probably other images, but, I've spent enough time looking around.
> 
> Ok, so, the challenge was answered.  There were definitely three examples found.  However, I can't really declare any single winner since the challenge was to find 3 examples, not find one at a time.  And, I know that people are going to scream bloody murder about this, but, no one poster actually answered the challenge.  So, I will amend my sig, but, not quite in the way that the challenge specified.
> 
> I did learn a fair bit from this thread though.  For one, people tend to see anime where it really isn't.  Also, I think it's pretty safe to say that D&D art is about as anime influenced as any other pop art form.  At the end of the day, I think it's safe to say:
> 
> *Myth Busted*




With the exception of the reprint I don't see the others at all as Anime/Manga.  There are influences all over WotC books but if this is the closest then it's still pretty far off.  

Hussar is right.


----------



## Wolfspider

hazel monday said:
			
		

> What I've learned from this thread, is that  on the internet,even when presented with evidence to the contrary, people will declare their argument to be unassailably correct.  I've learned that people will discount the opinions and positions of others without a second thought, and then blithely go on to belittle those who don't agree with them.
> 
> Oh wait, I already knew that. Nope, I didn't actually learn anything from this thread.




Oh, the delicious irony.  Yum!


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hussar said:
			
		

> Heck, I WORE ninja boots last week in a local festival.




You're so anime. [/hong]


----------



## gizmo33

Hussar said:
			
		

> As such, it's mostly meaningless, like "dungeonpunk" and "video gamey".




Words like "hot" and "cold" are also meaningless AFAICT by this criteria because people use them inconsistently for all sorts of things.  They represent a basic idea though.  Whether or not any individuals opinion about hot/cold matches yours is a different issue.  If opinions that are different than mine are "meaningless", that's mostly a matter of my ability to understand things I don't agree with and less about anything universal IMO.  

If you're seeing some kind of statement over and over again from people (for example "DnD art is too anime" or whatever) then I would suspect that there's something going on there and that it's not a figment of a bunch of people's imagination.  That's not to say that all the words they are using to describe it are being used with some sort of scientific rigour.


----------



## Hussar

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> Words like "hot" and "cold" are also meaningless AFAICT by this criteria because people use them inconsistently for all sorts of things.  They represent a basic idea though.  Whether or not any individuals opinion about hot/cold matches yours is a different issue.  If opinions that are different than mine are "meaningless", that's mostly a matter of my ability to understand things I don't agree with and less about anything universal IMO.
> 
> If you're seeing some kind of statement over and over again from people (for example "DnD art is too anime" or whatever) then I would suspect that there's something going on there and that it's not a figment of a bunch of people's imagination.  That's not to say that all the words they are using to describe it are being used with some sort of scientific rigour.




That's a very nice strawman.

Hot and cold do, in fact, have pretty definable meanings.  And, any reasonable test of them would do.  -20 is not hot by any reasonable standard.  15 isn't really either.  (or, I guess about 60 for you guys on the other system.)  Not too many people are going to start bitching about the heat when it's 75 outside.  If a group of people do start complaining at 75, then perhaps, they misunderstand the definition of hot rather than assume that their definition is somehow valid simply because they happen to hold it.

The same goes for a large number of the buzzwords you see on internet forums.  "Videogamey" is a beauty.  It is completely meaningless.  Or rather, you can twist it to mean just about anything, so long as its bad.  Never mind that video games encompass a huge range of subjects and styles and that under even a minimum of scrutiny, the comparison falls apart.  That's not the important part.  The important part is to get in that shot of "It's so VIDEOGAMEY!"

Replace Videogamey in the above paragraph with pretty much any buzzword you like and it holds.  

I've shown rather nicely that anime has very little influence in 3e art.  Yes, it has some.  That's fine.  But, we're talking about the same level of influence that you see in pretty much any pop art.  Yet, time after time, we see posts of "3e art is so anime!".  No, it's not SO anime.  It's a little tiny bit anime.  It's a minuscule part of the collection.  The vast majority of the art shows about as much anime influence as X-Men or Batman.

Yet, I NEVER, EVER, hear that "3e art is so MARVEL".  Or, "3e art is so DC".  Why is that?

Oh right.  Go back up a couple of paragraphs.  If someone can't make the cheap, uninformed shot, what's the point?  And, yup, I call it uninformed.  This thread has shown how uninformed it is.  Heck, I'm not even a fan of anime, yet, I can tell that most of the stuff posted isn't anime in the slightest.  

So, when people insist on using a term that isn't applicable, apparently we should change the definition of the term rather than actually insist that the terms be used correctly?  I don't think that's terribly constructive.


----------



## Cadfan

> If you're seeing some kind of statement over and over again from people (for example "DnD art is too anime" or whatever) then I would suspect that there's something going on there and that it's not a figment of a bunch of people's imagination. That's not to say that all the words they are using to describe it are being used with some sort of scientific rigour.




There's something going on, alright, but it has nothing to do with anime.  It has to do with a hierarchy of geekiness, in which one geek community looks down on things another geek community likes, and insults them.  This leads the first community to start using the things the other geeks like as a sort of epithet.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Hussar said:
			
		

> That's a very nice strawman.
> 
> Hot and cold do, in fact, have pretty definable meanings.  And, any reasonable test of them would do.  -20 is not hot by any reasonable standard.  15 isn't really either.  (or, I guess about 60 for you guys on the other system.)  Not too many people are going to start bitching about the heat when it's 75 outside.  If a group of people do start complaining at 75, then perhaps, they misunderstand the definition of hot rather than assume that their definition is somehow valid simply because they happen to hold it.
> 
> The same goes for a large number of the buzzwords you see on internet forums.  "Videogamey" is a beauty.  It is completely meaningless.  Or rather, you can twist it to mean just about anything, so long as its bad.  Never mind that video games encompass a huge range of subjects and styles and that under even a minimum of scrutiny, the comparison falls apart.  That's not the important part.  The important part is to get in that shot of "It's so VIDEOGAMEY!"
> 
> Replace Videogamey in the above paragraph with pretty much any buzzword you like and it holds.



Hence Remathalis's sig.


----------



## gizmo33

Hussar said:
			
		

> That's a very nice strawman.




Strawman, as I've been saying for a while, means something specific.  If you don't agree with the analogy then I suppose the details of why would be relevant.  The hot/cold analogy was not a proxy argument.



			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> Hot and cold do, in fact, have pretty definable meanings.  And, any reasonable test of them would do.  -20 is not hot by any reasonable standard.




Yes, it probably is hot by planetary standards.  



			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> 15 isn't really either.  (or, I guess about 60 for you guys on the other system.)  Not too many people are going to start bitching about the heat when it's 75 outside.




Food served at an air temperature that people would call "hot" would actually be called cold.  You're way oversimplyfing this, and coincidentally I think that's what's going on in the anime debate.  The fact is that things are legitimately much more a matter of perspective than you are recognizing.



			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> "Videogamey" is a beauty.  It is completely meaningless.  Or rather, you can twist it to mean just about anything, so long as its bad.  Never mind that video games encompass a huge range of subjects and styles and that under even a minimum of scrutiny, the comparison falls apart.




I don't agree.  The core technologies that video games are built on share the same characteristics and have a similar set of limitations.  I was just reading a Sun white-paper on their Darkstar game platform, which actually contradicts what you're saying here from a technical perspective.  

Again, I really feel like it's a matter of you objecting to the negativity, but I think "meaningless" is just overstated and overly dismissive.



			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> "Yet, I NEVER, EVER, hear that "3e art is so MARVEL".  Or, "3e art is so DC".  Why is that?




That's probably a good question.  Seems regretful that it's not an open question to you.



			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> So, when people insist on using a term that isn't applicable, apparently we should change the definition of the term rather than actually insist that the terms be used correctly?  I don't think that's terribly constructive.




Well, I'd say no.  But then again you don't really seem interested in what they're actually talking about, so the intent is not to aid them in being constructive but instead call the points "meaningless" so they can be dismissed.  

For example, I think your use of the overly used internet buzzword "strawman" was inappropriate here, but I don't think it's worth it to stonewall the conversation.  Instead I think it's better to assume that you have some point and the rest is just about clarifying our vocabulary.


----------



## Doug McCrae

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> If you're seeing some kind of statement over and over again from people (for example "DnD art is too anime" or whatever) then I would suspect that there's something going on there and that it's not a figment of a bunch of people's imagination.  That's not to say that all the words they are using to describe it are being used with some sort of scientific rigour.



As it's used on ENWorld the word does have a fairly specific meaning imo, referring to oversized weapons, non-historical armour, spikey hair, lack of backgrounds, black line, figures in motion, superhuman powers and general lack of 'realism'.

The problem is the word is poorly chosen. What it describes doesn't bear much resemblance to the distinctive features of anime. Oversized weapons and weird armour can be found all over the place in fantasy art and really stem from 2000AD and Games Workshop and, ultimately Frank Frazetta, I believe.

Dungeonpunk is a good word though. It refers to the style of art in the 3e PHB. Simple. Though there are a lot fewer piercings than people think there. And no spikey hair at all.

Videogamey is almost completely meaningless though as there are so many different video games. The one thing it might mean is that death is relatively unimportant/easy to come back from, cause that's true of all of them. Unless you're playing in Iron Man, no save mode. Damn!


----------



## Cadfan

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Videogamey is almost completely meaningless though as there are so many different video games. The one thing it might mean is that death is relatively unimportant/easy to come back from, cause that's true of all of them. Unless you're playing in Iron Man, no save mode. Damn!




But people almost always use "videogamey" to refer to new playstyles.  Die/resurrect is old school.

I think that the die/resurrect cycle is the one most "videogamey" thing in D&D, but its also the one I've never, ever heard someone call videogamey.  Uh, except me right now.


----------



## Lackhand

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> I don't agree.  The core technologies that video games are built on share the same characteristics and have a similar set of limitations.  I was just reading a Sun white-paper on their Darkstar game platform, which actually contradicts what you're saying here from a technical perspective.
> 
> Again, I really feel like it's a matter of you objecting to the negativity, but I think "meaningless" is just overstated and overly dismissive.




While I disagree with your position and broader point, I am totally digging the white paper. Thanks for pointing out its existence!


----------



## WizarDru

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Videogamey is almost completely meaningless though as there are so many different video games. The one thing it might mean is that death is relatively unimportant/easy to come back from, cause that's true of all of them.




Which, when you consider that most video games got a lot of their ideas FROM D&D (see the .sig) kind of turns that argument back upon itself, even in that context.  Raise Dead wasn't an invention of 3e and the only pen-and-paper RPG I've ever played where characters got 'multiple lives' like many 'old school' video games was Paranoia, which was itself an element of satire.



			
				gizmo33 said:
			
		

> The core technologies that video games are built on share the same characteristics and have a similar set of limitations. I was just reading a Sun white-paper on their Darkstar game platform, which actually contradicts what you're saying here from a technical perspective.




I'm not sure I quite follow what you're saying, here.  Are you talking from a technical standpoint or from a games-theory standpoint or something else?  I'm not sure what Sun's as-yet-unfinished engine for an MMO has to do with the discussion at hand.  Darkstar may or may not be a nice solid platform upon which to build an MMO or scaling network game application...but that hardly has anything to do with Tony Hawk's Proving Ground, Indigo Prophecy or Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass.  Two of which feature online or wifi multiplayer options, all of which don't give multiple 'lives' and all of which share features in common with D&D (skill point system, quests, hit points, item collection, exploration, etc.)

Like 'anime' in this context 'videogamey' is another nebulous concept that generally never gets backed up with specific details.  Trying to say that Halo 1 somehow influenced D&D seems disingenuous...and as with 'anime', whenever the discussion turns to it, specific examples are found which largely predate 3e (which diffuses the video-game on 3e influence, as far as it goes).  So many video games took their core ideas from D&D and internalized them...and many 'gamist' ideas within D&D were hardly new when they were applied there.  Let's not forget that D&D itself is heir to a long line of board game ideas originating with H.G. Wells' "Little Wars", viewed through the lens of popular fantasy literature.  As a game, it shares common characteristics with ALL games.  Commonality is hardly causality.

Yes, terms like 'hot' and 'cold' are, to some degree (HA!) relative...but only in fine-tunings and personal acclimation.  That a commonality of people decided that 20 degrees Fahrenheit isn't that cold to go swimming doesn't mean that they're right...unless their bodies have completely different physiologies, we can still gauge that, as far as their biology is concerned, it IS cold.  Someone from Florida coming to Pennsylvania and telling me that 60 degrees is cold is as factual as not, due to his sensitivity from living in a higher temperature zone, and vice versa.  But someone from three doors down coming by and telling me that 20 degrees isn't cold because he and his friends decided it wasn't doesn't change the fact that he'll be suffering from hypothermia if he stays out in the cold without protection or hyperthermia in the other direction.

I agree that if twenty people all identify something as 'anime' that even if correct, it's possible they've analyzed some sort of identifiable trend.  But that's not what's happened here.  Claims have been made by some that anime is essentially pornography...they can't describe it, but they know it when they see it.  Further, much of the discussion has rotated around the fact that people can't even agree on individual examples.  Twenty people aren't pointing and saying 'The Brothers Hildebrandt were _clearly_ anime.'  Five people are, and five others are saying 'Dude, Brom is _clearly_ anime' and ten more are pointing at a host of other sources and saying _that_ is anime.  And some of it clearly is, and a lot of doesn't appear to be (depending on your perspective) and some of it clearly isn't.


A large part of the changes that D&D has experienced in the last three decades has come from player feedback and the changing tastes of gamers.  What I enjoyed or considered acceptable in 1982 doesn't cut it, now.  Hell, what I considered acceptable in 1997 doesn't cut it now.  Game design has moved on.  Popular art has moved on.  Many of the artists who are working on D&D now weren't even BORN when I started playing.  Undoubtedly many are seeing the influence of anime/manga and other sources.  But an equal amount are not and D&D is not, by any means, dominated by anime content.  And quite frankly, I'm GLAD.  I've been watching anime for 30 years now, and while I love some of it, I'd hate for D&D to be more than slightly kissed by it.  And so far, I don't see any signs that D&D has more than had a hint of anime influnece within WotC's pages.


----------



## gizmo33

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Videogamey is almost completely meaningless though as there are so many different video games. The one thing it might mean is that death is relatively unimportant/easy to come back from, cause that's true of all of them. Unless you're playing in Iron Man, no save mode. Damn!




Ok, so we have a poorly chosen word (anime), a word (Dungeonpunk) that you think is appropriate, and a word (Videogamy) that you think is meaningless.  What I'm saying is that I think "meaningless" has connotations of universality whereas when I dig through the logic I find more often than not that it's really just that the person using the word doesn't understand how the word is being used.  Now perhaps that's because it's been chosen improperly.  But ironically, I find concentrating on the language to be an actual strawman, and not very constructive.  There *are* concepts at the root of people's complaints, whether or not one agrees with them, and I think it's more constructive to understand those concepts (and continue to disagree) or perhaps suggest some alternate/correct terminology.  

And basically, it seems to make no sense to me logically for one to complain, on one hand, that such-and-such a term is overused and on the other hand that it's meaningless.  Clearly if it's being overused (however improperly) there is some concept at the root of the word that has meaning.  (I'm not saying that I always understand those meanings though.)


----------



## gizmo33

Lackhand said:
			
		

> While I disagree with your position and broader point, I am totally digging the white paper. Thanks for pointing out its existence!




Cool     How can you disagree though?     At least in terms of videogames the paper paints a pretty clear picture of something I would have thought all MMORPG players would know anyway, which is the technology and it's limitations creates a certain kind of playstyle and feel to a game.  Whether or not such a thing can apply to a given RPG is debateable, but something being debateable, or even erroneous, is not the same thing as "meaningless".


----------



## Jedi_Solo

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> it seems to make no sense to me logically for one to complain, on one hand, that such-and-such a term is overused and on the other hand that it's meaningless.  Clearly if it's being overused (however improperly) there is some concept at the root of the word that has meaning.  (I'm not saying that I always understand those meanings though.)




Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong... but what I think is meant that if 100 people use a term and there seem to be 100 different meanings behind the term whith no apparent common ground, that the term itself is not useful in the discussion.

(I say "apparent" common ground in the way people 1 through 5 use the term might have similar meanings (though not exactly the same) and people 95 through 100 have similar meanings but the usage of those two groups as a whole has no apparent commonality.)

I agree that the word 'meaningless' is likely a bad choice.  It obviously means something to the person who used it (even if it just means 'a hot button word that will enflame other posters').   What about the term 'useless'?  If 100 people people use a term and the meanings seem to be all over the place, when person 101 uses ithe term it can't really help  in the discussion.  I would bet that the useage from person 101 would be lost in the noise and ignored - or worse (and more likely) that everyone will see it and assume they are taking the stance that it diametrically opposed to their own position.

I will state that (for the most part) I feel the terms "anime" and "videogamey" (as far as D&D is concerned) are now 'useless'... except to start flame wars - they are very useful for that.  They have been used to describe so many different things that no one knows exactly what anyone is talking about anymore.  Any constructive usage of the words are gone.


----------



## gizmo33

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I quite follow what you're saying, here.  Are you talking from a technical standpoint or from a games-theory standpoint or something else?




The "game play" and "feel of a game".  The technology limits what you can do within a game.  There are also limitations (and often a broader categories of "things that are a pain to do") in any system, computer or dice-driven.  What I'm saying is that the existence of a general set of conditions for MMORPGs and the way they play was recognized implicitly in the paper.  The issue of whether or not Darkstar was finished isn't relevant, the analysis contained a recognition of the issue that was being called "meaningless".  IMO the word "meaningless" is being overused on this board for things that it doesn't apply to.



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> Like 'anime' in this context 'videogamey' is another nebulous concept that generally never gets backed up with specific details.  Trying to say that Halo 1 somehow influenced D&D seems disingenuous...




Well, for one thing, specific instances of people using the word "cold" in some sort of insane rant is neither here nor there.  Perhaps it's relevant for those of you that are reacting to specific, but unstated experiences but for a casual reader like me reading over these posts, there's nothing in terms of universal logic that suggests that all uses of the word 'anime' in the context of DnD art are meaningless.  And again, "nebulous" might be more of a indication of a lack of understanding and/or poor communication rather than something that's logically unsound about the persons thought process.

On the topic of weather or not Halo 1 influenced 3E DnD,  I would think that would be more complicated by the fact that two things can share characteristics because they're design goals, values, technology, or whatever were shared by both.  I don't think it's completely unreasonable that the Bioware people, for example, came back to the RPG designers and said "hey, this would be a lot easier to program if you got rid of some of these idiosyncracies".  



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> Yes, terms like 'hot' and 'cold' are, to some degree (HA!) relative...but only in fine-tunings and personal acclimation.




Yea, and we're essentially talking about something very simple in a situation were we all share basically the same biology.  But the problem with terminology for art is that it's highly subjective, and especially when you have non-technical people, or those that know nothing about anime (like me) using words that the "true believers" use much more precisely.  Probably all words have some very specific technical meaning in some field, but, as I've said, saying someone's statement is "meaningless" simply because their words/definitions don't jibe with their own IMO is not constructive.



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> I agree that if twenty people all identify something as 'anime' that even if correct, it's possible they've analyzed some sort of identifiable trend.  But that's not what's happened here.




Yea, but what has appeared to have happened at this time (this a big thread) is "that's meaningless, next!"  



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> A large part of the changes that D&D has experienced in the last three decades has come from player feedback and the changing tastes of gamers.




Are sure?  Take Spell Spheres for clerics for example (in 2E).  To me, that was an idea with some potential but poor implementation and design.  Had anyone anyone actually playtested it and given feedback on it, I would not have expected it to take the final form that it did.  

The problem is that IME design by consensus is very difficult, and "design by player feedback" is orders of magnitude more difficult than that.  People know what they like but they often IME just grasp for straws when it's time to present a solution.  I would think designers use feedback to look for general areas that need their attention, but that the specific solutions the present are more a combination of a shot in the dark with their own experiences.



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> What I enjoyed or considered acceptable in 1982 doesn't cut it, now.  Hell, what I considered acceptable in 1997 doesn't cut it now.  Game design has moved on.  Popular art has moved on.




Well, it's different.  "Moved on" I think has connotations that are overly presumptuous IMO.  Especially in terms of art.  I find much of the later stuff in 3E to be "childish" IMO, overly reliant on cheap computer effects and cartoonish muscles and not as interesting as alot of the landscape-oriented stuff.  Is that an over-generalization based on my overly limited experience with what I've seen?  Perhaps, but it's not "meaningless" just because I can't find the right words to describe abstract concepts.


----------



## Nifft

Jedi_Solo said:
			
		

> I agree that the word 'meaningless' is likely a bad choice.  It obviously means something to the person who used it (even if it just means 'a hot button word that will enflame other posters').   What about the term 'useless'?



 Any reason we're ignoring the obvious choice ("*ambiguous*", more specifically "too ambiguous")?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Jedi_Solo

Nifft said:
			
		

> Any reason we're ignoring the obvious choice ("*ambiguous*", more specifically "too ambiguous")?




Yes, there is a specific reason.  If my last post wasn't proof enough - Eye kan't spel wel.

Ambiguous would require me to look up the spelling or at least require a spellchecker.  I'm lazy so I went with the word that I could look at and say - Yup, that looks right.

Seriously - I thought of "ambiguous" and decided against it for spelling reasons.


----------



## gizmo33

Jedi_Solo said:
			
		

> Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong... but what I think is meant that if 100 people use a term and there seem to be 100 different meanings behind the term whith no apparent common ground, that the term itself is not useful in the discussion.




(Hmmm.  The logic is strong in this one...)  Seriously though, thanks, I think your addressing the issue I have with this.  I would like to find a way to talk about DnD art on some sort of common ground that does not quickly devolve into arguments over terminology.  I'm not sure that everyone that has some measure of dislike for 3E art in general would all agree on the reasons anyway.  I often find myself recognizing the spirit of what's written though, even if I don't recognize the particular terminology that they're using, so the word "meaningless", which was one of my main points, IMO went too far, which is something I think we both agree on.


----------



## Cadfan

Nifft said:
			
		

> Any reason we're ignoring the obvious choice ("*ambiguous*", more specifically "too ambiguous")?
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Yes.  The goal here is to whitewash the use of the phrase, "D&D is too anime!!!"  The problem here is that D&D isn't noticeably anime, making that sentence false.  So its being cunningly suggested that the popular use of the phrase "D&D is too anime!!!" means that the word "anime" must have some meaning for which that sentence is true.


----------



## gizmo33

Cadfan said:
			
		

> So its being cunningly suggested that the popular use of the phrase "D&D is too anime!!!" means that the word "anime" must have some meaning for which that sentence is true.




I don't find it all that cunning, but thanks     The suggestion is simply based on the fact that many folks appear to be paradoxically dismissing a term as being overused but then simultaneously suggesting that there's no meaning at the root of it's use.  That's it's uniformly used, but somehow used incorrectly/with no meaning.  To me it seems somewhat logical, and not all that cunning that the person making the statement is either insane (which is highly improbable), dishonest (a strange conclusion and no discernable motivation) or just not using the word the way other people use it (IMO the most likely possibility).  

I'm happy with the "ambiguous" idea put forth, but then it begs the question IMO as to what all of these people using the term were trying to describe.


----------



## Nifft

Jedi_Solo said:
			
		

> Seriously - I thought of "ambiguous" and decided against it for spelling reasons.



 FireFox, amigo! It's got a built-in spellchecker -- for example, it's right now warning me that "spellchecker" isn't a word.

Luckily, I've got the balls to ignore it upon occasion. 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Hussar

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> I don't find it all that cunning, but thanks     The suggestion is simply based on the fact that many folks appear to be paradoxically dismissing a term as being overused but then simultaneously suggesting that there's no meaning at the root of it's use.  That's it's uniformly used, but somehow used incorrectly/with no meaning.  To me it seems somewhat logical, and not all that cunning that the person making the statement is either insane (which is highly improbable), dishonest (a strange conclusion and no discernable motivation) or just not using the word the way other people use it (IMO the most likely possibility).
> 
> I'm happy with the "ambiguous" idea put forth, but then it begs the question IMO as to what all of these people using the term were trying to describe.




The problem with ambiguous is that, as Cadfan points out, it means that the term being used does have some applicable meaning, just that the meaning is unclear.  

But, as we've shown, anime in this context has almost nothing to do with the art being discussed.  It just doesn't apply.  I could start saying that D&D art is Pointillist, but, I'd be wrong.  ((I think, since I don't actually know what pointillist art is, I'm just making a point here.  ))  Saying that D&D art is anime is wrong.  It's not.  Except for a very, very small set of examples, D&D art has almost nothing in common with anime.  Or, at least nothing more in common with anime than any other pop art form.

So, yes, I do believe that using anime as a descriptor is meaningless.  Or useless.  Whichever makes you happier.  It's not ambiguous, because, I pretty much know what the poster means.  "This art is crap.  Anime is crap.  Thus this art is anime" seems to be the common refrain.  The problem is, the art isn't really related to anime in more than an oblique fashion.

In the Hot/Cold example, you changed the original point.  Your point was that hot and cold, because they can have multiple meanings, are similar to anime.  Hot on Pluto is different than hot on Earth.  The problem is, in context, the meaning is pretty clear.  However, no definition of the styles of anime actually look like the art in the WOTC galleries.  Yes, anime has lots of different meanings, but, none of them apply here.  

So, if you use a term that actually doesn't apply, should we change the meaning of the word to suit you or ask that you use a different term?


----------



## WizarDru

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> IMO the word "meaningless" is being overused on this board for things that it doesn't apply to.




I never used the term "meaningless".  In fact I think I said something to effect of exactly opposite that.  I don't recall it being used in this thread up until the last page or so.  So I don't disagree.  It sounds like you're mostly concerned with a issue of sophistry, which I don't know really reflects on the topic that much.



			
				gizmo33 said:
			
		

> Yea, but what has appeared to have happened at this time (this a big thread) is "that's meaningless, next!"




Have you followed the entire thread?  Because while some folks have said that, I think it would be a gross-mis-characterization to state that this was the only reaction.  By later pages of the thread, after the same issues were raised and similarly put down, perhaps...but more detailed dissections happened in the first several pages.  I think you're taking one comment from the end of the discussion and painting with something of a broad brush, here.





			
				gizmo33 said:
			
		

> Are sure?  Take Spell Spheres for clerics for example (in 2E).  To me, that was an idea with some potential but poor implementation and design.  Had anyone anyone actually playtested it and given feedback on it, I would not have expected it to take the final form that it did.




Yes, I am sure.  I'm not talking every single specific feature, but in general trends.  Skills were not in OD&D, but progressively they became added as players and designers recognized the evolution of the game, from Non-Weapon Proficiencies on to the eventual Skill System in 3e, 3.5e and next 4e.  GURPS featured a much more complicated skill system back in the mid-80s, as did Hero.  Eventually these influenced D&D's designers.  Not having played 2e, I can't comment on the success or lack thereof of Spell Spheres...though if it's what I think it is, then the whole concept of Domains evolved from them, which is exactly what I was driving at.



			
				gizmo33 said:
			
		

> "Moved on" I think has connotations that are overly presumptuous IMO.  Especially in terms of art.  I find much of the later stuff in 3E to be "childish" IMO, overly reliant on cheap computer effects and cartoonish muscles and not as interesting as alot of the landscape-oriented stuff.




Since I wasn't referring to art here, but rules systems, I'm not sure what you consider presumptuous about it.  In reference to the phrase 'meaningless', which I didn't use, I can only say that we aren't dealing with 'abstracts' here, as you seem to be saying.  There most clearly are specific pictorial elements which can be ascribed to anime.  Part of the point of this thread was to discuss and describe them.  While the actual specific words of art vary (such as 'face faults', for example), it is very clear that the common usage of the word 'anime' is often ascribed to a particular style or related styles.  If you change the word 'anime' to 'cubism', does that makes the idea more salient?


----------



## gizmo33

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I never used the term "meaningless".  In fact I think I said something to effect of exactly opposite that.  I don't recall it being used in this thread up until the last page or so.  So I don't disagree.  It sounds like you're mostly concerned with a issue of sophistry, which I don't know really reflects on the topic that much.




Maybe that is what I'm concerned about.  I've wanted to talk about art in the past on this board but the responses I've gotten have often been really aggressive and fixated on the vocabulary and other details that I thought were a distraction from the points I was trying to make.  In any case I'm not sure how applicable my comments are to the thread as a whole but I didn't think my post would prevent further discussion on the other facets of the issue.  Also - I'm sorry if you took the proximity of my comments to be implying that you personally said something about "meaningless".


----------



## gizmo33

Hussar said:
			
		

> It's not ambiguous, because, I pretty much know what the poster means.  "This art is crap.  Anime is crap.  Thus this art is anime" seems to be the common refrain.  The problem is, the art isn't really related to anime in more than an oblique fashion.




Well then I suppose you do know what a poster means by "anime" then     I agree, in the example you've given it's not all that ambiguous.  I can't answer for every use of the word anime, but the "hot/cold" answer I think was relevant just to illustrate that context was an issue.  "Hot/cold" could also be the beginning of a long rant about the use of words, popular definitions, slang, etc. since those words frequently come up in all sorts of contexts not having to do with temperature.  But I think you can anticipate my points on this.  Whether or not you'd want to fix these definitions for all time I guess is an open question (clearly, "yes" in your case).  Then again, I'm realizing that the comments you're thinking of are not very constructive ("DnD art is crap") so I would expect my encouragement to be constructive about people's questionable use of terms like anime would not be welcome advise and probably not appropriate in those cases.


----------



## gizmo33

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Since I wasn't referring to art here, but rules systems, I'm not sure what you consider presumptuous about it.




Here's the quote:



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> What I enjoyed or considered acceptable in 1982 doesn't cut it, now. Hell, what I considered acceptable in 1997 doesn't cut it now. Game design has moved on. Popular art has moved on.




You were referring to art in what I responded to.  I guess there's some sort of miscommunication here.  But it seems pretty clear to me that you were equating rules with art in a way to show by analogy that in the way that rules have improved (a little more solid ground in terms of objectivity) so has art.


----------



## Hussar

The problem is, your hot/cold analogy isn't really applicable.  Hot and cold are relative terms.  Always.  Anime is not.  It's a genre term.  And, as such, it exists outside of any other considerations.  Anime is a descriptor for a specific set of styles and themes, just like any other genre word.  

Yes, there is all sorts of fuzziness at the outskirts of the genre, but, that doesn't make it relative, it just means that there is overlap between different genres and certain works are more difficult to place within one or the other.  It's not about fixing the definition for all time.  It's about using a word in the way it's meant to be used.  

Again, should we change the definition of a word to satisfy people who use the term incorrectly?

An absolutely beautiful example of what we're talking about just cropped up in another thread:



			
				rounser said:
			
		

> A lot of people play D&D as a sort of Sim S&S Fantasy World game, and by pushing your brand as a specific, non-generic entity with a specific, extremely quirky implied setting you may find that aspect of D&D's ability to deliver on that suffering. Thus far it's hewed fairly closely to Tolkien, who stuck to mythology, which was okay (everyone knows what a dwarf is)...




In the same paragraph, he's equating Sword and Sorcery fantasy with Tolkien.  Yet, S&S fantasy as a genre is pretty much the complete opposite of Tolkien and was, in fact, coined as a term as a reaction to Tolkien's High Fantasy works.  In other words, Rounser here is dead wrong in his use of the term.  He's used the wrong term to make his point.  It doesn't mean what he thinks it means.

So, should we simply ignore this and guess what his point is or should we challenge it and ask for clarification?  Me, I've been challenging people on this anime thing for years.  Dozens to times I've asked people to provide examples whenever I've seen the whole "3e art is anime" thing pop up.  And, until this thread, I never ever got an answer.

So, no, it is not acceptable IMO, to simply let sloppy thinking slide.  If you want to make a point, make it.  Using the wrong words doesn't get your point across.  It's not about fixing a definition in stone, it's about being able to better communicate.  Again, I could say that 3e art is Surrealist.  I'd be wrong.  I'm sure I could probably point to some Surrealist influences somewhere in some book, but, 3e art is by no means Surrealist.  

So, should I never be challenged if I state that 3e art is Surrealist?  Should it just be ignored and people should instead guess what I'm trying to say?  I don't think so.  

I've got zero problems with someone not liking the art.  Heck, there's lots of art that I don't like.  My beef is when people are using the wrong words to make their point and then acting like it should be self evident what they mean.  Say what you mean or don't bother.


----------



## Wolfspider

Hussar said:
			
		

> In the same paragraph, he's equating Sword and Sorcery fantasy with Tolkien.  Yet, S&S fantasy as a genre is pretty much the complete opposite of Tolkien and was, in fact, coined as a term as a reaction to Tolkien's High Fantasy works.  In other words, Rounser here is dead wrong in his use of the term.  He's used the wrong term to make his point.  It doesn't mean what he thinks it means.




You are right in pointing out that S&S and the kind of high fantasy present in much of Tolkien's work are very different.  I just wanted to mention that much of what is considered classic S&S (the works of Howard, for example) predates Tolkien's LotR trilogy and the Silmarilion.


----------



## Nifft

Hussar said:
			
		

> My beef is when people are using the wrong words to make their point and then acting like it should be self evident what they mean.  Say what you mean or don't bother.



 Clap clap clap!



			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> Again, I could say that 3e art is Surrealist.



 Not the art so much as the game in itself. Marvelous Pigments, for one example. _"Ceci n'est pas --- zut alor! C'est une pipe!"_ The ability to bodily visit the Plane of Dreams. The spell _detect thoughts_.

But there's also a few bits of obvious art like this:






Anyway, good point, good thread, let's retire the anime mud slinging.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## MoogleEmpMog

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> You are right in pointing out that S&S and the kind of high fantasy present in much of Tolkien's work are very different.  I just wanted to mention that much of what is considered classic S&S (the works of Howard, for example) predates Tolkien's LotR trilogy and the Silmarilion.




I don't believe Hussar is saying otherwise; he's saying the TERM Sword and Sorcery, as opposed to just 'fantasy,' came about to distinguish the two types.

I'm not sure if that's CORRECT, mind, but that's what he's saying.   I had the same thought as you the first time I read his comment, but figured it out when I went to quote it and say the same thing you did.


----------



## gizmo33

Hussar said:
			
		

> In the same paragraph, he's equating Sword and Sorcery fantasy with Tolkien.




But his point doesn't rely on the similarity or difference between S&S and Tolkien and I think it's somewhat of a distraction to debate the meaning when Rounser's core issue (from what I can tell by by the quote) is that some prior edition of DnD was generic fantasy, whereas some other version (4E I guess, or whatever) is not.  

If the difference between S&S and Tolkien is significant to the discussion, then IMO it's just easiest to say that in specific ways that avoids relying on the definition.  I'd say something like "Conan, an example of S&S, doesn't have dwarves.  Furthermore, the literature in that genre is distinct in many significant ways from Tolkien.  So saying that DnD stays close to Tolkien would then suggest that DnD has strayed far from Conan".  Or something like that - I'm not really sure of the context of the conversation.  But this way you avoid having to debate something that ultimately doesn't support your conclusion AFAICT.  Or at least your point is just as easily established - and in a way that implicitly defines your terms.

The bottom line for me with this thread (or this section of it) and in other places where this is discussed is that I think everyone knows what everyone else is really trying to say.  It's possible that the vocabulary thing is causing a conflation of ideas or other problems that need to be cleared up.  But AFAICT the folks calling "shennanigans" on the use of the term anime are too general IMO in their objections for me to make much use of them in understanding their ideas that are pertinent to the subject.  Sort of a "you're wrong, now say everything again" kind of response that IMO is not constructive.


----------



## Nifft

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> But his point doesn't rely on the similarity or difference between S&S and Tolkien and I think it's somewhat of a distraction to debate the meaning when Rounser's core issue (from what I can tell by by the quote) is that some prior edition of DnD was generic fantasy, whereas some other version (4E I guess, or whatever) is not.



 What?

Hussar's point has nothing to do with Rounser's point being valid or invalid.

It has to do with Rounser's *misuse of genre terminology*. It's an analogy to how people were misusing the *genre* of anime.

This thread is about a mis-used genre term. The thread where Rounser was posting is not.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## gizmo33

Nifft said:
			
		

> What?




I'll speak up.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> Hussar's point has nothing to do with Rounser's point being valid or invalid.




Yes, that's my point too.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> It has to do with Rounser's *misuse of genre terminology*. It's an analogy to how people were misusing the *genre* of anime.




Ok, I think that relationship is clear.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> This thread is about a mis-used genre term.




Well then my comments should just be taken as the non-sequitur that you're claiming here.  Feel free to return to the topic at hand as it appears that what I'm saying is irrelevant.


----------



## Cadfan

Nifft said:
			
		

> Clap clap clap!
> 
> Not the art so much as the game in itself. Marvelous Pigments, for one example. _"Ceci n'est pas --- zut alor! C'est une pipe!"_ The ability to bodily visit the Plane of Dreams. The spell _detect thoughts_.
> 
> But there's also a few bits of obvious art like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, good point, good thread, let's retire the anime mud slinging.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Does an accurate portrait depiction of a person who happens to be melting in (imaginary) real life count as surrealist?  Would it be more surrealist to draw them NOT melting?

Call the philosophers!


----------



## Nifft

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> Well then my comments should just be taken as the non-sequitur that you're claiming here.  Feel free to return to the topic at hand as it appears that what I'm saying is irrelevant.



 No worries.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## WizarDru

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> You were referring to art in what I responded to.  I guess there's some sort of miscommunication here.  But it seems pretty clear to me that you were equating rules with art in a way to show by analogy that in the way that rules have improved (a little more solid ground in terms of objectivity) so has art.




I should have been more clear.  I was referring to popular art in the genre, there, but that should have been a separate thought.  There are two points there, not one.  The first point is that gamers have come to expect more from a game than they did previously.  For an example, I started this poll.  Clearly, the greater majority considered a skill system in D&D to be a necessity.  At this count, 61 of 79 respondents would like a skill system in D&D.  

Popular art in the game genre HAS moved on...or, since you seem to find that particular phrase loaded in some way, has continued to evolve.  My point in the sentence that followed your quote was that most of the current batch of D&D artists grew up with D&D and a much different cultural mix than those artists back in the 70s and early 80s.  Frank Frazetta's influence filters down to Brom, but Brom certainly isn't Frank Frazetta.  Moebius's work directly influenced Geoff Darrow, but again, they aren't the same.  Frank Miller was directly influence by Kazuo Koike, but not solely by him...and Miller in turn influenced many modern artists.  Genre art, like all art, is not static.  

It was not my intention to infer that art 'moving on' meant that it was somehow intrinsically better, though it was my intention to say that about the rules.  Not properly separating those two points was a failing on my part.  Clearly, Jackson Pollack doesn't invalidate Leanardo Da Vinci, any more than WAR's work has dampened people's love for Dave Trampier's work.  But the kind of artwork that is being produced HAS changed, and what fans expect to see in a fantasy work has changed, as well.  Whether it's changed for good or ill is a matter of opinion, but clearly works move on.  Compare the coves of most SF novels from the 50s, 60s and 70s, for example.  Note the moves from the abstract to the representative.    

Compare the covers for this book, an old favorite, called "Hospital Station", by James White (first in the Sector General collections).













This is an example of what I meant.


----------



## Nifft

Cadfan said:
			
		

> a person who happens to be melting in (imaginary) real life



 I'd just like to quote this out of context. It's starting to look like the whole game is pretty darn surreal!

Actually, I wonder if the explicit externalization of Alignment could be painted as pertaining to the surrealist's discursive manifesto. But that's horribly off-topic. Sorry.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## gizmo33

WizarDru said:
			
		

> This is an example of what I meant.




Wow.  That was a really cool post.  Thanks.


----------



## Hussar

Gizmo33 - at the end of the day, you are arguing in favour of people being able to use whatever term they want, regardless of the actual meaning of that term.  In addition, the reader should simply ignore or move past that misuse and try to parse meaning from their statements.

I've never been a big fan of assuming my readers are mind readers.  If I misuse a term (as I did above with straw man), I expect to be called on it because I'm wrong.  Why should we ignore things that are wrong?


----------



## Bullgrit

D&D used to be so snurrivel. Now days, it's all hossenrile.

Bullgrit
Total Bullgrit


----------



## moritheil

Matthan said:
			
		

> This isn't as clear cut to me.  It strikes me as being more western comic influenced.  It looks like a modern adaptation of the 90's "Image" style.




Which has been called out by critics as influenced by anime/manga.  I mean, if you want to ignore that, that's fine, but then anything can be discounted by reference to some anime-inspired American work.


----------



## moritheil

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> I don't see it that way. if your pegging the art, your pegging the artiest as well. they are all the same example




The artist is more than one example of his art.

And sometimes, the art does things that the artist doesn't normally do.

It's possible to have an artist that does mostly anime-inspired works who does some art that is not.  It's possible to have an artist that does mostly non-anime-inspired works who does one or two works that are anime-inspired.


----------



## AllisterH

Kind of glad this thread has returned.

Did anyone read about the art direction from "Worlds & Monsters"? They talked about how 4E was moving from the 3E's "Character-focused in action" shot to more scenery/locale shots a la 1E.

I really noticed this in Worlds & Monsters. There were more scenery shots in W&M than I think in the entirety of the FRCS hardback...


----------



## Hussar

Now that would be cool.

I agree that 3e art was entirely too focused on characters outside of context.  Even going back to something like the pics in PHB2 with the return to the Caves of Chaos image, for example, you saw a very large reaction from fans asking for more pics like that.

Now that I can definitely get behind.


----------



## Wolv0rine

babomb said:
			
		

> Studio Ghibli movies



Which is, of course, the single best anime in existance.



			
				babomb said:
			
		

> Kimba the White Lion



I just wanted to kiss you for mentioning Kimba.  I loved Kimba when I was a kid.


----------



## Wolv0rine

jasin said:
			
		

> A Google Image Search for "paizo" includes this on the first page:
> 
> http://www.eva-widermann.de/i/151.jpg



Holy hell, Paizo are using Mord Sith?!?


----------



## Wolv0rine

(Note: I don't believe I replied to a thread this old without checking the post dates, I feel like a schmuck. )


----------



## HeinorNY

Where is the post with the winner image?


----------



## Hussar

Ack, there were three winning images.  But, since no single poster actually managed to find all three, no one actually won.  You'll have to swim upthread a few pages to find them.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn

Just like to point out the three UDON images in Dungeon 153
Pair of Giants
http://udoncrew.deviantart.com/art/Lady-In-The-Bottle-77273683
Acerak
http://udoncrew.deviantart.com/art/Acererak-75386090
Ambush
http://udoncrew.deviantart.com/art/Ambush-77273415

Images won't show in thread so I've got to link.


----------



## Zamkaizer

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> Just like to point out the three UDON images in Dungeon 153.



Nothing particularly anime-inspired about them, especially considering who they're by and where you found them. Compare, for instance, the Death Giant illustration to Wayne Reynolds' original.

I would say though, that if you wanted to make a case as to why Dungeons & Dragons should be free of anime influence, you could do worse than point to the vacuous comments those images elicited from the Deviantart community.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn

Zamkaizer said:
			
		

> Nothing particularly anime-inspired about them, especially considering who they're by and where you found them. Compare, for instance, the Death Giant illustration to Wayne Reynolds' original.



Further back, I think on page 7 or 8 Hussar had made the point that you didn't see UDON used by WoTC only some by Piazo and when I saw the WoTC Dragon material I thought it was noteworthy.



			
				Zamkaizar said:
			
		

> I would say though, that if you wanted to make a case as to why Dungeons & Dragons should be free of anime influence, you could do worse than point to the vacuous comments those images elicited from the Deviantart community.



I did notice that but it's not really any different from what you see anywhere on DeviantArt, or to an extent the WoTC boards either.  Mainly just posted to give counterpoint to the issue of their not being used by WoTC way back in the thread.  Now I do think there has been influence of varying degree by the anime art styles and techniques.  But for the most part it's tolerable influence.  If I started seeing Exalted style pieces I'd turn me off on the art, that's not what I play D&D for, but I don't think that's going to happen.


----------



## Zamkaizer

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> Further back, I think on page 7 or 8 Hussar had made the point that you didn't see UDON used by WoTC only some by Piazo and when I saw the WoTC Dragon material I thought it was noteworthy.



I think the Udon illustrations, along with adventures in which they appear, were salvaged by Wizard's when they assumed control of _Dungeon_ and _Dragon_. Nothing empirical to support this, but it seems reasonable enough.


----------



## Hussar

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> Further back, I think on page 7 or 8 Hussar had made the point that you didn't see UDON used by WoTC only some by Piazo and when I saw the WoTC Dragon material I thought it was noteworthy.
> 
> 
> /snip




If you take a look at the dates, AT THE TIME that I posted that, UDON was a Dungeon/Dragon artist.  I specifically pointed to only WOTC art since that's what the bulk of gamers see.  

If you look at some of the later pieces, yes, you see some UDON pieces creep into WOTC art, usually as reprints of previous art.  

Heck, if I wanted to open things up to anything D&D, take a look at Living Imaginations Pirates book.  There's all sorts of anime art in there.  BESM style characters.  

But, the original challenge was specifically about WOTC books, not outside sources.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn

And I was merely pointed out that with the new Dungeon 153 images (now while it a WoTC production) it appears we may be seeing a change in trends nothing more or less.  

Notice below I posted this about my view on the entire anime/manga issue


			
				HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> Now I do think there has been influence of varying degree by the anime art styles and techniques. But for the most part it's tolerable influence. If I started seeing Exalted style pieces I'd turn me off on the art, that's not what I play D&D for, but I don't think that's going to happen.




No reason to jump all over a post doing nothing more than noting an interesting change in a small subset of WoTC produced D&D art that may or may not have any further impact.


----------



## Hussar

Sorry, wasn't jumping up and down, just making sure my point wasn't being obscured.

And, I doubt this is really a trend shift.  I think it's more simply using art that was likely already commissioned.


----------



## Doug McCrae

I found some anime.







It's from 1967.


----------



## The Little Raven

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> I found some anime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's from 1967.




MICHAEL MOORCOCK MUST BE STOPPED!


----------



## TwinBahamut

I seem to recall it being mentioned once that one of Micheal Moorcock's book covers was drawn by Yoshitaka Amano... Amano does not really use the anime style at all (I seem more traditional Japanese art influence in his work), but it is an interesting thing to observe none the less.

But I am not seeing anime in that one image... A weird hat and a face I can't make out, plus a sword that seems to be toned down from what I have heard about the sword Stormbringer, but nothing much that is anime styled... Am I missing sarcasm, or something? I really don't know much about Moorcock's Elric stories, so I am not sure.


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## Hussar

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> I seem to recall it being mentioned once that one of Micheal Moorcock's book covers was drawn by Yoshitaka Amano... Amano does not really use the anime style at all (I seem more traditional Japanese art influence in his work), but it is an interesting thing to observe none the less.
> 
> But I am not seeing anime in that one image... A weird hat and a face I can't make out, plus a sword that seems to be toned down from what I have heard about the sword Stormbringer, but nothing much that is anime styled... Am I missing sarcasm, or something? I really don't know much about Moorcock's Elric stories, so I am not sure.




What are you talking about man?  He's got a big sword!  And it's all black and stuff.  Plus, he's kinda androgynous looking.  It's totally anime.  In the 1960's.  

 

*disclaimer*  The above is very much satire and meant to be funny.  If you don't think it's funny, well, it's still meant as such.


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## Doug McCrae

Yeah, it's the big sword. I found the picture very interesting because I was wondering about the history of the oversized weapon in fantasy art. Did it start with Games Workshop/2000AD in the 80s or are there earlier precedents? I thought I saw some signs of it in Frazetta's axes but I wasn't sure.

The cover of the D&D Companion Set also has a BBB - Big Black Blade.


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## Hussar

One thing I did learn from this thread is that you can find evidence to support just about any opinion you like.  When we found that Hildebrandt pictures had anime'ish proportions, I think it's pretty hard to point to any single source of inspiration.


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## Geron Raveneye

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> The cover of the D&D Companion Set also has a BBB - Big Black Blade.




Huh? Where?






Looks like a magical two-handed sword to me, with the aura of the sword making it look bigger than it is. Granted, it still could skewer the dragon from tummy to back with the right angle.


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## Gizmoduck5000

Gundark said:
			
		

> This is some art that was done by Joe Madureira. This is from the Races of Eberron book
> Definitely Maga influences there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While Joe Mad is an american comic artist, he has cited several times that Japanese style of art has been a major influence on his work




Wow...I didn't realize that Joe Madureira did illustrations for D&D.

He was one of my favorite comic book artists from back in the day. (I also love Barry Windsor Smith, Alan Davis, Travis Charest, Chris Bachalo, Dave Gibbons...I have well rounded tastes)


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