# OOC Kingdom of Ashes IV - Who's yo' daddy?



## The_Universe (Oct 22, 2004)

Starting a new thread.  We're at 500 on the old one.


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## Xath (Oct 22, 2004)

Whoooooooooooo!


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## Archon (Oct 22, 2004)

*gathering a force(Strengthening the Arm of the Phoenix)*

Archon's wishlist has changed dramatically. i figure he has enough magic items for now. what we really need is more soldiers or at least better equiped ones. So, with that in mind, most of Archon's share will go towards training, recruiting and supplying the Army of the Phoenix.
mik


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## The_Universe (Oct 22, 2004)

So no permanencied stuff?

Are you going to hire mercs with your extra cash, then?  Or just buy equipment for the ones you got?  What's your plan, man!?  Elaborate!


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## taitzu52 (Oct 22, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> MD-DC-VA Gaming Day: October 2, 2004




Totally off subject:  Hey Xath, where can a MD boy find out about next season's shindig?

TZ


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 23, 2004)

taitzu52 said:
			
		

> Totally off subject:  Hey Xath, where can a MD boy find out about next season's shindig?
> 
> TZ



 You may want to post a thread about this in the General Discussion Forum.


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## The_Universe (Oct 23, 2004)

*The Nobles' Council*

The following Great Houses make up the voting members of the Nobles' Council of the Falcon Kingdom. The primary race of each Great House is noted with the name, although it is certainly possible that any of the half- or mid-races might find themselves as members of one of the "pure" Houses. Where I have it figured out, I have also noted the reigning patriarch or matriarch of the House.

*Human* 
House of Araesi 
House of Rhynn - Martin Rhynn (the Elder)
House of Filmore (no longer a Great House) - Alric Filmore
House of Hawkson - Tain Hawkson
House of Bishop - Julian Bishop
House of Morrigath - Elaine Morrigath
House of Hansberry - 

*True Alder*
House of Woodshadow (Honorary)
House of Greyclaw - Duke Varis Greyclaw, Lord Oceanus
House of Silverbow
House of Darkwater

*High Alder*
House of Woodshadow
House of Goldenblade
House of Lightstaff
House of Farseer

*Mid-Elf*
House of Amastacia
House of Reuter
House of Lairen
House of Surrell

*Dwarves*
Clan Leadbender
Clan Bloodaxe
Clan Thunderheart
Clan Stonecarver
Clan Deepcutter

*Ogrun*
House of Ralix

*Orcs*
Tribe of Gorak
Tribe of Targ
Tribe of Lugrin
Tribe of Charn

*Little Folk*
House of Cheebles
House of Dittymus
House of Ryllink


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## The_Universe (Oct 24, 2004)

Also, as I bask in my post-game good mood, I thought I would reiterate how much of a pleasure it is to hang out with you guys and play. Sorry we didn't get more done, and I hope what we _did _get done was to your liking. Congrats to everyone for surviving. The assassination attempt has failed. Now - the question of where you'll go (and what you'll do) next remains! 

Experience is as follows: 

If you're level 13: 4680
If you're level 14: 3360
If you're level 15: 2700

I will also roll up treasure later, and post when it has been completed.


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## Laurel (Oct 24, 2004)

Wahoooo! L'Aurel has reached 14th level


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## Xath (Oct 24, 2004)

Whoooooooooooooo! Congrats!


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## The_Universe (Oct 24, 2004)

A quick review of what you know so far (for planning purposes):

1) Caer Albion is under attack by a Draconid force of unknown size.  The Army of Prydein is (as you already know) in the North, presumably attacking the Bluestar.  AB has hinted that he now controls the Army of Prydein, as well as the Army of the Watch.  The Mithral Walls of the Shining City still stand, but the now-dead Redmage has hinted that there have already been inursions inside the walls.  Apparently defended only by Talons who remain inside the walls, and by militia, Caer Albion could fall at any time.  You don't have a lot of info here, but the Redmage seemed to be telling the truth.  Someone seems to have considered his information important enough to send assassins after him/you to keep it from spreading.  Tain, so far as you know, is still in Thanesport.   

2) A large number of Draconids have left Oceanus, presumably to acquire the 2 spiritblades from the Isle of Mourning.  You've managed to do some damage to their fleet, and probably managed to kill some of the invading troops.  You don't know if they'll actually find the blades, but as long as they're on the Isle, there's a chance they can get them, and take them to Tain.  

3) As a result of their invasion of the Isle of Mourning, Oceanus itself is weakened.  It's fleets now lie at the bottom of the sea, or ferry troops back and forth between the Isle and Oceanus.  If Randall was right, almost half of the army left in Oceanus has travelled or is travelling to the Isle - that leaves about a quarter of the total invasion force (or about half of what you fought in the Battle for the Alder's Forest) inside Oceanus's walls.  

4) Across the sea, a few hundred miles south of Thanesport, in a little village known as One Oak, a scattered few Amastacian Monks and almost 3000 refugees from a far off land are gathered, marshaling for war on your behalf.  Their emperor and his shogun have declared their allegience to the Queen, and it is now only a matter of getting them from where they are, to where they need to be.  

5) A group in the North is in open Rebellion to the Bluestar, and you have an arrangement to meet with them, probably _very_ shortly.  The original arrangement was for 2 weeks, which have passed.  Sometime in the next couple of days, or so.  If you need to push it back, you probably need to talk to Jansten.  The success of the Rebellion depends at least partially on Archonus Bluestar, although I don't think it's been made clear exactly how.  Secondarily, they believe that destroying Mansblade is a necessary part of defeating the Deathlord.

6)  The Bluestar's forces, under the command of AB, have conquered Sylvannus, although no blood has apparently been spilled.  AB is here, and so you're not sure who's in charge in Sylvannus.   


That's the important stuff as I see it - do with it what you will.  You have several very valid paths, and the sooner you choose one (or choose several, and make a plan to make them all happen) the better.  I'd like to be able to prepare a little more for the next time we play.  These are hardly the only things going on at the moment, and I know there are other things you've talked about - like going to the Jade Forest Academy - that you may wish to pursue, as well.  Good luck, and happy hunting.  


PS - PLEASE DECIDE QUICKLY.


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## The_Universe (Oct 24, 2004)

1000 bonus Roleplaying XP for the Redmages and all of the other stuff we did yesterday.

I forgot to reward you for that.  Way to go!


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## Xath (Oct 24, 2004)

> 1) Caer Albion is under attack by a Draconid force of unknown size.  The Army of Prydein is (as you already know) in the North, presumably attacking the Bluestar.  AB has hinted that he now controls the Army of Prydein, as well as the Army of the Watch.  The Mithral Walls of the Shining City still stand, but the now-dead Redmage has hinted that there have already been inursions inside the walls.  Apparently defended only by Talons who remain inside the walls, and by militia, Caer Albion could fall at any time.  You don't have a lot of info here, but the Redmage seemed to be telling the truth.  Someone seems to have considered his information important enough to send assassins after him/you to keep it from spreading.  Tain, so far as you know, is still in Thanesport.




Well, there are 2 blades and thousands of innocent people here.  If we somehow managed to pull off a rescue, we'd have the aid of the capitol behind us.  The only problem is, how?  The 6 of us probably can't make that huge of a difference, and by the time we got a signifigant number of forces there, the city will have already been taken.  We could try to pull another Oceanus here and lead as many innocents out of the city as possible before it is taken.  Have some NPC's lead the exodus, while we frantically search for the spirit blades before the city is overrun.  



> 2) A large number of Draconids have left Oceanus, presumably to acquire the 2 spiritblades from the Isle of Mourning.  You've managed to do some damage to their fleet, and probably managed to kill some of the invading troops.  You don't know if they'll actually find the blades, but as long as they're on the Isle, there's a chance they can get them, and take them to Tain.




Well, this is a quandry, if they've just sent low level minions, the island will probably take care of them. However, the draconids have proven that they are not stupid, so I doubt this is the case.  We have certainly slowed them down, and the island is much more defendable than Caer Albion.  But can we leave them to their own devices?  Probably not.  Is this the highest priority?  Probably not.



> 3) As a result of their invasion of the Isle of Mourning, Oceanus itself is weakened.  It's fleets now lie at the bottom of the sea, or ferry troops back and forth between the Isle and Oceanus.  If Randall was right, almost half of the army left in Oceanus has travelled or is travelling to the Isle - that leaves about a quarter of the total invasion force (or about half of what you fought in the Battle for the Alder's Forest) inside Oceanus's walls.




Well, this would be the perfect time to take Oceanus back, and from there we would have a good anchor to stop the forays to the Isle of Mourning.  And we have promised all of these people that we will win Oceanus back.  However, in this situation none of the spirit blades are at stake, and no more people are at risk.  It would be a good time to take out Blackadder if she is still in the city, and if she is not, it makes the city that much easier to take.  



> 4) Across the sea, a few hundred miles south of Thanesport, in a little village known as One Oak, a scattered few Amastacian Monks and almost 3000 refugees from a far off land are gathered, marshaling for war on your behalf.  Their emperor and his shogun have declared their allegience to the Queen, and it is now only a matter of getting them from where they are, to where they need to be.




Well, the mages are already at work in bringing them to Hyrwl, correct?  From there, it would be in our best interests to use these skilled warriors to either take back Oceanus, or defend Caer Albion. However, Caer Albion is a bit further away.



> 5) A group in the North is in open Rebellion to the Bluestar, and you have an arrangement to meet with them, probably _very_ shortly.  The original arrangement was for 2 weeks, which have passed.  Sometime in the next couple of days, or so.  If you need to push it back, you probably need to talk to Jansten.  The success of the Rebellion depends at least partially on Archonus Bluestar, although I don't think it's been made clear exactly how.  Secondarily, they believe that destroying Mansblade is a necessary part of defeating the Deathlord.




We'll need an extention on this one.  They seem to be holding their own well for now, and the lives of many innocents are at stake elsewhere.  If we could get their aid below the wall, it would certainly be useful.  But is now really the time?  Four more spirit blades are in immediate danger.




> 6)  The Bluestar's forces, under the command of AB, have conquered Sylvannus, although no blood has apparently been spilled.  AB is here, and so you're not sure who's in charge in Sylvannus.




Well, we could ask him...


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## Laurel (Oct 24, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Now - the question of where you'll go (and what you'll do) next remains!



Say forget this- pick a small island for about 1,000 people and start our one island Queendom.


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## Laurel (Oct 24, 2004)

Are Ryoko's people (the warrior's) ready for battle now?  Can they be sent to meet us directly in Oceanus or Caer Albion, instead of sending them to New Oceanus/Hywrl first?

Going to Caer Albion would be going into something completely blind- the messenger is dead, and all we know is the few sentences he was able to say.  We don't know the size of the force, how far they are, the layout of the city, possible exit or entry routes-- this is not just teleport in there with an army option. but taking the time to get there over land will make us too late.

The six of us can go in with that small group of elite fighter we have, taking a ring gate with us?  Jaine, Preston, Dorn, Randell, Caweys, and messengers are all right there with the other ring gate, so we can instantly get things rolling as we learn/find them out.  If we just to start teleporting people out have the mages start if we need to start hearding them out start that.

Showing up and helping in the fight would give us all those allies... what few we save.  Any mages that survive will know we were right, and all the others will start down the path the truth as well.

There are also two blades there.  Tain may not be attacking more then simply it is a major city, but so far he has been craftier then that.  If we get there we have to go for the blades and get them out of there.

About how long would it take to fly to Caer Albion?  No riders, no equipment, regular easy fly speed 80 ft. per round.


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## Laurel (Oct 24, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> 6) The Bluestar's forces, under the command of AB, have conquered Sylvannus, although no blood has apparently been spilled. AB is here, and so you're not sure who's in charge in Sylvannus.



I would guess Filmore, but since that is just a strange random named pulled out the sky we should ask AB.... if we can get an answer from him that is


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## Laurel (Oct 24, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> A 5) A group in the North is in open Rebellion to the Bluestar, and you have an arrangement to meet with them, probably _very_ shortly. The original arrangement was for 2 weeks, which have passed. Sometime in the next couple of days, or so. If you need to push it back, you probably need to talk to Jansten. The success of the Rebellion depends at least partially on Archonus Bluestar, although I don't think it's been made clear exactly how. Secondarily, they believe that destroying Mansblade is a necessary part of defeating the Deathlord.



Well, if AB, Jaine and Janesten could all forget about it and not ask about the meeting or have a meeting prior to it saying it's all set up ready.... I think this will have to wait.  They have been wait a long time yet, and as Gertie said four spirit blades or trying to find out if a group north of the wall can help us.... spirit blades win for now I'd say....


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## Laurel (Oct 24, 2004)

Just to make sure everyone can get access to it, attached is a word doc. of the blades and thier info.  sorry if anything is spelled incorrectly.  If any of the info is wrong let me know so I can change it.


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## The_Universe (Oct 24, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Well, there are 2 blades and thousands of innocent people here. If we somehow managed to pull off a rescue, we'd have the aid of the capitol behind us. The only problem is, how? The 6 of us probably can't make that huge of a difference, and by the time we got a signifigant number of forces there, the city will have already been taken.



While it's true that you probably can't defeat the gathered hordes of Draconids in a stand up fight with only the 5 or 6 of you, you might be able to make a difference if you think creatively.  You're rebels, and you need to think as such.    You're probably not successfully going to be able to march out onto the field of battle and challenge the whole army.  But that's not the only way to fight...

I have two words, that even the most lawful good characters could do in a time like this: _Fight_. _Dirty_.  Betrayal, trickery, and unpredictability are your best weapons at this point.  As long as you're fighting a war and not a rebellion, you're going to be at a severe disadvantage. 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I see no way that you can win this war on even terms.  You need to stop fighting as if the terms will ever be even.  Whether you use the Rebel Alliance in Star Wars as a template, or even something real like the American, Russian or - God forbid - the French Revolutions for a template, something like that is really what you need to do (In my opinion - as always, its possible you could outsmart me). 

Just a thought...   




			
				Xath said:
			
		

> Well, this is a quandry, if they've just sent low level minions, the island will probably take care of them. However, the draconids have proven that they are not stupid, so I doubt this is the case. We have certainly slowed them down, and the island is much more defendable than Caer Albion. But can we leave them to their own devices? Probably not. Is this the highest priority? Probably not.



 You've probably got some time with this.  But don't slumber, either...



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> Well, the mages are already at work in bringing them to Hyrwl, correct? From there, it would be in our best interests to use these skilled warriors to either take back Oceanus, or defend Caer Albion. However, Caer Albion is a bit further away.



 Whatever (if anything) you decide to use them for, I'd suggest you have a plan, and not depend on even these well-trained warriors to defeat the Serpentblood on the open field. 



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> We'll need an extention on this one. They seem to be holding their own well for now, and the lives of many innocents are at stake elsewhere. If we could get their aid below the wall, it would certainly be useful. But is now really the time? Four more spirit blades are in immediate danger.



How are you going get an extension?  You're already late for your travels, and spurning the Northern rebellion, even with good reason, will probably not leave them in a real good mood.  



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> Well, we could ask him...



Yes you could.


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## The_Universe (Oct 24, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Are Ryoko's people (the warrior's) ready for battle now? Can they be sent to meet us directly in Oceanus or Caer Albion, instead of sending them to New Oceanus/Hywrl first?



 Yes.  You could.  Although not all 3000 are warriors.  I'd say about 1000 are warriors, although they are probably better trained than most of what you currently have.  



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> Going to Caer Albion would be going into something completely blind- the messenger is dead, and all we know is the few sentences he was able to say. We don't know the size of the force, how far they are, the layout of the city, possible exit or entry routes-- this is not just teleport in there with an army option. but taking the time to get there over land will make us too late.



You'd probably have to scout it out before you brought any sizable force to bear on the city.  



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> The six of us can go in with that small group of elite fighter we have, taking a ring gate with us? Jaine, Preston, Dorn, Randell, Caweys, and messengers are all right there with the other ring gate, so we can instantly get things rolling as we learn/find them out. If we just to start teleporting people out have the mages start if we need to start hearding them out start that.



 Abandoning Caer Albion is probably not an option.  They have more mages than you do, so if evacuation is the only way, they can do that themselves.  They're still fighting because they feel the city needs to be held (and it probably does).  Although under the influence of the King already, it will be lost _completely_ as soon as it falls to the Serpentblood.  You can offer to accept refugees, but if that's all you plan to do, don't risk your lives to tell them in person.   



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> About how long would it take to fly to Caer Albion? No riders, no equipment, regular easy fly speed 80 ft. per round.



 Day and a half? Maybe 2?  Something like that.  That's just a guess.


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## The_Universe (Oct 24, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Just to make sure everyone can get access to it, attached is a word doc. of the blades and thier info.  sorry if anything is spelled incorrectly.  If any of the info is wrong let me know so I can change it.



 Thanks!  

Gertie - can you upload the most current resources list to the thread?  That way, everyone can access it, and use it to start their own creative juices flowing...?


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## The_Universe (Oct 24, 2004)

The treasure is: 

17000 GP
22 Gems - 10,310 GP
+3 Defending, Shock, Flaming Burst, Ghost Touch Quarterstaff.  
Ring of Evasion
Wand of Bull's Strength (30 Charges)


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 25, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Going to Caer Albion would be going into something completely blind- the messenger is dead, and all we know is the few sentences he was able to say.  We don't know the size of the force, how far they are, the layout of the city, possible exit or entry routes-- this is not just teleport in there with an army option. but taking the time to get there over land will make us too late.




We can, if we want to take the time, cast Speak With Dead on the messenger and see if we can get some answers that way.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 25, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> How are you going get an extension?  You're already late for your travels, and spurning the Northern rebellion, even with good reason, will probably not leave them in a real good mood.




Not only are those working with the rebellion in the North going to be upset-- all those people that are waiting to get their homes back have to be getting angry.  We promised them that they would have their city back-- now is the perfect time to take it back.


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

The people who would be angry that they haven't gotten their homes back have seen, first hand, the capabilities of the enemy.  They have stood next to you on hastily constructed dirt walls, risking their lives for the chance that their loved ones might survive.  They have watched all of you risk your lives for no better reason than that you feel it is the right thing to do.  

Though the population hasn't changed all that much in actual physical makeup, you nonetheless have a very different people in Hyrwl and New Oceanus than what you left Oceanus with.  People who were once dockworkers and merchants, blacksmiths and cobblers are now hardened battle veterans.  They have watched their brothers and friends fall to protect their _new_ homes, and have bled and died no less than any of you.  

Oceanus is a _memory_, albeit a partly-pleasant one.  You have promised to win back Oceanus, but I don't know how many people would truly wish to return to a city that has already been made over in the image of their enemy....The Oceanus that is is hardly the Oceanus that you hoped to return to these people.  No one understands better than they that there is more at stake than an already-lost city.  I applaud your dedication, and winning Oceanus back is a good idea for more reasons than your promise -- but these people have gone too far to abandon their cause.  

*cue swelling theme music* They have been forged in death, tested in battle.  Out of the ashes of Oceanus has come a true _*Army of the Phoenix*_.  

Just a thought.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 25, 2004)

The first step of making a plan is to decide what we want to do...

So, we need to decide if it is possible to take up Caer Albion as our responsibility while, at the same time, fulfilling our other responsibilities to the people in the North.  Moreover, we need to decide if we want to give up the blades at the Isle of Mourning without so much as trying to fight for them...

No matter how creative we get, I don't think it is possible to do all of it... at least, not all at once...

So, what do we think???  If your characters were making a list of "Main Objectives" what would they be and what are their importance?


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

Also, while you may not be able to achieve everything currently on the table yourselves (which I am not sure is true - I think it's possible that you could) do remember that Archonus Bluestar has offered you an army, as well...

While you pursue one thing, he pursues another?


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## Xath (Oct 25, 2004)

The army of the bluestar fighting the "army of the bluestar?"


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

Well yes - that's right.  That will be one hell of a confusing battlefield, won't it?   

If it were me, I'd have him and his forces (if you can convince him) running interference on the Isle of Mourning.  No matter what happens, you probably don't want the _real_ army of the Bluestar _or_ the fake army of the Bluestar holding Caer Albion.  That's bad in all six ways from sunday.


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

If AB goes to fight on the island can we get him to agree to bring the blades back to us or to Jaine first before sending them off to old blue?

Do we have a plan for if we do get 1 or 2 or 4 blades what we are doing with them?
-hiding them
-giving them to the bluestar
-run around with them
-dig a really deep hole and hope they are forgotten
-forge dublicates of the actual spirit blades (hide one set run around with the others let them thing we are that stupid and egotistical) or just forge 'em then plant them.  If dorn and/or preston can describe the 2 blades on the island at all we could even just switch those.....


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> The army of the bluestar fighting the "army of the bluestar?"



 Also, as I mentioned above, could you post the resource list for common consumption?


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> If AB goes to fight on the island can we get him to agree to bring the blades back to us or to Jaine first before sending them off to old blue?



 You'd have to ask him, but based on the previous blade discussion, that's not likely. That's not to say he can't be convinved in one way or another, but he probably won't be real fond of the idea, initially. 



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> Do we have a plan for if we do get 1 or 2 or 4 blades what we are doing with them?
> -hiding them
> -giving them to the bluestar
> -run around with them
> ...



The fake blades idea is an interesting one, but it would at best be a short term con. With so many spells/items/abilities capable of positively and definitely identifying the blades, and the fact that they seem to react to each other, it would take some creative lying to pass off an otherwise mundane blade as a spiritblade, no matter how much it physically resembled it... But as they say in movies: it might just be crazy enough to work.


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## Xath (Oct 25, 2004)

*Resources*

Here's the list.  Check it twice.


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> The treasure is:
> 17000 GP
> 22 Gems - 10,310 GP
> +3 Defending, Shock, Flaming Burst, Ghost Touch Quarterstaff.
> ...



_now_ we get that ring 

The Quarterstaff is a monk special weapon, so Kareth can use it without all the normal penalties.  And it would give him another weapon, though his mighty fists are doing awesome! 
So to Kareth?


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## Xath (Oct 25, 2004)

There have also been arguements as to giving the quarterstaff to Jansten or Archonus.  

It also is worth 257200gp.  (sell value = 154320)

Anyone making claims on the ring of evasion?  If not, Xath'll use it, but I'll give others first dibs.


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## Xath (Oct 25, 2004)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104748

Also, check out this thread.  Contribute.


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> There have also been arguements as to giving the quarterstaff to Jansten or Archonus.
> It also is worth 257200gp. (sell value = 154320)
> Anyone making claims on the ring of evasion? If not, Xath'll use it, but I'll give others first dibs.



ring away Xath!  L'aurel has already paid for this, a few days ago..... great timing huh 

Arguements?.... Jansten you could ask, but I'm not sure 1) if he would anything other then his sword and 2) if he has the TWF


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

Okay so with L'Aurel out healing arrows and I assume reserving spells for other things can we get another wand o' healin'?  Or is/are people carrying any?  Just didn't see 'em in the inventory.


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## AIM-54 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Planning?  Never...*

Okay, I'm going to present a case for why we need to go to Caer Albion, ASAP for the purposes of the rebellion.  The reasons are relatively simple:

We show the flag, as it were.  A quick response shows that we're plugged in and we know what's going on around the continent and are interested in it, beyond our little corner and furthermore, are willing and able to respond.  The presence of two spiritblades is an added bonus, but by no means should be our only or necessarily primary objective (in terms of what will have the maximum positive affect for the rebellion;  as I understand it, the blades are ultimately a small, though important aspect of it.  It's also likely that it comes down to some sort of Tain/Bluestar Spiritblade showdown once all of them have been collected by the various sides).

If we go after the blades on the Isle of Mourning, we remain (or appear as) a local factor, something that Tain can contain in the Oceanus region (or Prydein, which is the name of the island, IIRC) and therefore no real threat to the draconids and not much use to anyone else interested in standing up to the Forces of Darkness tm. 

Appearing in and having an effect on events in Tain's capital city also shows that we are not powerless.  Whatever we do (given some element of success, of course) can be seen as weakness on our opponent's part, as he cannot even keep a pesky band of rebels from acting in his own capital.  Whether we get one or both spiritblades or not, a visible action by us doing something (defending the city, killing bad guys, evacuating people, whatever) will be more important than the substance.  Remember, we don't have to win a military action to achieve success.  Recall the North Vietnamese Tet Offensive...a complete military defeat, but ultimately an important step on their road to victory.

As for the meeting with the Janstenites...well, we have a rebellion to run and that needs to be our first priority, especially with events moving as they have.  We have an opportunity in Caer Albion and missing that boat could hurt us more than any negative effects on negotiations with that faction.  Indeed, success in our Caer Albion endeavor might put us on better ground for negotiations.

Anyway, just a few thoughts.


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## AIM-54 (Oct 25, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104748
> 
> Also, check out this thread.  Contribute.




Should that spell come into being, I think it needs the world specific title of "Archon's Cop Out"


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

heheh - No matter what happens, you should dedicate your battle to the fallen St. Arfin Kegsplitter, founder of the Arfinian Order.  

On a more serious note, offering Caer Albion help with evacuation is probably not going to be worth a whole lot.  They have a ton of mages, and can teleport/gate/whatever with the best of them.  If they were going to abandon the city to the Draconids, they could have quickly and efficiently done so as soon as the serpentblood started knocking on their door.  They came to ask for your help in _holding _the city.  

That being said, you could just be bastards about it and just sweep in and steal the spiritblades, and then ditch them to let them stew in their own juices for a while.  It wouldn't break alignments to do something like that, since you have your own perfectly legitimate problems to deal with, although it's about 30 miles shy of exalted.  

But, in all, JC lays out a good case for heading north - is there a way to have your cake (the Isle of Mourning) and eat it (Caer Albion) too?

The most important point he lays out is this one: you don't have to win, you just have to screw with him.  Sometimes all it takes are mosquitos to make you leave the proverbial barbecue.


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> Should that spell come into being, I think it needs the world specific title of "Archon's Cop Out"



 Or "Escaping the Queen's Predicament"


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: The little prince*

Options so far:

1) have someone take the baby before Jaine really begins to show (as per New spell) --Gertie, is Xath offering taking the kid or just finding out options?

2) Have Arhconus Arrendor marry Jaine making the kid legit.

3) Somehow force AB to marry Jaine (kill the bluestar and free him?)

4) Kill Jaine and/or Kill the baby

5) Have Kareth marry Jaine

6) Find someone quickly who loves Jaine and is okay with being the step-dad of her unborn kid 



?7?) L'aurel was going to offer to take the kid after it's born (this was before the spell was even mentioned) don't think Jaine would go for it anyways, but it is an option she would gladly accept.



This isn't the best option, but so far it would go as:

L'Aurel uses ring of chameleon to appear to be pregnant.  Not many know of bringing people back from the dead and Selura could have been pregnant before.  With little time delay between Selura's death and L'Aurel's rebirth the child was kept alive.  L'Aurel has read the stories of the Amastatia and she was able to fight while pregnant.  To have a good place for the child to grow up in L'Aurel must continued to fight even through the pregnancy for if the war is lost the child will grow up in a horrible world that no mother would want to see her child in.  Though she's really not pregnant, but in case someone asks.

Shortly before delivery Jaine's pregnancy goes into trouble spot, she ends up loosing the baby.  L'Aurel has 'baby' few days later no complications.  If the child has the mark there a possibility of making a bracelet that's sole purpose would be to hide the mark.  Think of it like a medical bracelet.  If anything were to happen and Jaine wanted/need/wished for the child back L'Aurel would return it to it's rightful mother.

Also, I was assuming Xath would be the one offering taking the kid if the spell happened, but if she's not again L'aurel could using the same theory from above.

I know there are wholes to the last option.... but....


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 25, 2004)

As has been said, Caer Albion can escape... they do not want to.

Do we want to try to Speak with Dead with the mage that is dead in Hyrwl?

I'm all for sending the Blue Stars forces to fight one of the fights... having them go to Caer Albion would put a major damper on the kings "the blue star is doing it" crap... but, at the same time, making us look bad...

Right now, the best of all possible situations, I think, looks like this:
Send Big Blue's forces to fight for the blades on the Isle of Mourning-- under the agreement that the blades are not taken North but given to AB until we have decided what the best way to destroy them is.

At the same time, we--as a small force-- attempt to bring down the forces in Caer Albion... however, I am still at a loss as to how to fight that fight... it will take A LOT of brilliant planning...

What do you guys think??


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 25, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Or "Escaping the Queen's Predicament"



 Justice is not in favor of the switching of the wombs carrying the baby... this option seems much more shameful to Jaine than simply a mistaken pregnancy.


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Justice is not in favor of the switching of the wombs carrying the baby... this option seems much more shameful to Jaine than simply a mistaken pregnancy.



 Well, to Jaine personally it may be shameful, but since precious few people would know that she was pregnant at all, as of yet, it would shame the Throne a great deal _less.  _It either needs a father, or it needs to seem to _not exist_. Does that make sense?


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Justice is not in favor of the switching of the wombs carrying the baby... this option seems much more shameful to Jaine than simply a mistaken pregnancy.



It's all about what she feels is the most important at this point- can she have the baby and try to keep all those involved quiet.  Possibly spending the time on the throne constantly wondering when some one will talk about it.  Or having it switch in the womb when few people know of it and the people involved ar ebound to her and each other.
Also she may not even want to give it up....


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> As has been said, Caer Albion can escape... they do not want to.
> Do we want to try to Speak with Dead with the mage that is dead in Hyrwl?



Yes to Speak with dead- he can tell us more of where the mages are, and what secrets are there they are hidding.  We know Morded's skull at least is hidden there, so it goes that there are more secrets a foot.  We don;t need exact anything, but the more we know before we do anythign the better.  I know time is an issue, but a few minutes of getting good info could save our very lives. 
We do know that more then just this one mage tried to reach us, he seemed surprised that he was the only and the first to arrive in Hwyrl.  That should hopefully mean that other red mages still in Caer Albion will know us when we arrive, and a transition of us lending aid will go smoothly. 



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Right now, the best of all possible situations, I think, looks like this: Send Big Blue's forces to fight for the blades on the Isle of Mourning-- under the agreement that the blades are not taken North but given to AB until we have decided what the best way to destroy them is.
> 
> At the same time, we--as a small force-- attempt to bring down the forces in Caer Albion... however, I am still at a loss as to how to fight that fight... it will take A LOT of brilliant planning...
> 
> What do you guys think??



Seding AB with force to Island good, it has to be agreed that he carries them or what not but grandpappy doesn't get them right away.

The six of us go in to Caer Albion take over what little fight they have as generals and do what we do fight.  We may not win, but just coming to thier call for help will win us points (as the JC has stated).
We can use what we learned in Oceanus.  by taking a ring gate we are connected with Hywrl to get help/assistance.


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Do we want to try to Speak with Dead with the mage that is dead in Hyrwl?



I think that's a good idea. It certainly can't hurt.



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I'm all for sending the Blue Stars forces to fight one of the fights... having them go to Caer Albion would put a major damper on the kings "the blue star is doing it" crap... but, at the same time, making us look bad...



Might you send them to the Isle of Mourning instead, then? The worst that can happen there is that you won't get the blades, and the Bluestar will have them instead of Tain. 



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Right now, the best of all possible situations, I think, looks like this:
> Send Big Blue's forces to fight for the blades on the Isle of Mourning-- under the agreement that the blades are not taken North but given to AB until we have decided what the best way to destroy them is.



 Well, you may have trouble getting AB to agree to do that. If he says no, then what? Regardless - this might be a way to have your cake and eat it, too... 



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> At the same time, we--as a small force-- attempt to bring down the forces in Caer Albion... however, I am still at a loss as to how to fight that fight... it will take A LOT of brilliant planning...



Watch _the dirty dozen_, _rio bravo_, _Ocean's Eleven_, _Sneakers_, _Mission: Impossible_, several episodes of the A-team, _Return of the Jedi_, the last 25 minutes of _the Princess Bride_, and the last hour of Indiana _Jones and the Last Crusade_ and call me in the morning.  None of those are EXACTLY applicable, but they do have the kind of things you need to think about. There are books I can recommend, as well.  Aaron Allston's _Wraith Squadron _is a good start.

EDIT:  JC's suggestions: _The Seven Samurai, The Magnificent Seven._


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## AIM-54 (Oct 25, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> At the same time, we--as a small force-- attempt to bring down the forces in Caer Albion... however, I am still at a loss as to how to fight that fight... it will take A LOT of brilliant planning...




We don't have to bring down the forces in Caer Albion.  This is key.  We just have to show up, deal some damage and escape with everyone else.  If it comes to that.  Going in with the mindset that "we're going to bring down the forces in Caer Albion" is only going to get us killed.  We need to go in, wave the flag, kill some bad guys and get out.  Not to say that we're only there for an hour or whatever, by any means, just that our objective is not to save Caer Albion.

What would be ideal is if we could get in, liaise with whoever's directing the defense, help out at some weak spots and when the city is fallen, get everyone back to base (including any recruits we can pick up).  We don't need any extraordinarily brilliant planning, because we're not planning to win the war here.  We need a solid plan that's flexible enough to allow for the inevitable changing circumstances of warfare.  Keep it simple and straightforward and we'll all live long enough to win the whole enchilada.  It took North Vietnam 25+ years to unify their country;  impatience is our enemy.

The idea is a guerrilla action.  Hit hard, run away and live to fight another day.  We also need to get the people on our side as much as possible and showing up to defend the capital will certainly help out on that front.  (I'm trying to remember Mao's metaphor, but it ain't coming).


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Seding AB with force to Island good, it has to be agreed that he carries them or what not but grandpappy doesn't get them right away.



Just so it's not later said that I didn't warn you, AB probably won't jump on this bandwagon without significant prompting.  If he wins the blades, he'll want to be able to do what he pleases with them.  He fundamentally believes in your cause, but he still has to sell this war at home.  Nobody wants to fight and die (or re-die) if there's no potential reward.  Heck, even when there is a potential reward, people don't usually want to do that.  So prepare to be diplomatic, and prepare to duel the Universe with words!  That's right...your next encounter may be with....*drum roll* *The Devil's Advocate! **cymbal crash!* But not that stupid movie....


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 25, 2004)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> We don't have to bring down the forces in Caer Albion.  This is key.  We just have to show up, deal some damage and escape with everyone else.




And, here is where our problem is.  Going, fighting, and leaving is easy enough.  But, from the limited knowledge we got from the Mage from Caer Albion, they are not willing to retreat.  That is why they have asked us for help.

They can escape on their own-- saving hundreds of lives without our help.  If we do not go, the blood of innocents is not on our hands.

If we go, simply planning to fight until retreat is inevitable, we encourage them to fight, die, and--when all is lost--flee.  If we are going to take up Caer Albion as one of our responsibilities we must do more than that.

I believe it is better for us to try to convince them to retreat NOW and save as many lives as possible than to simply resign ourselves to fighting until there is no fight left... our options are to "think creatively" and come up with some way to do more than simply fight and flee or to convince the people of Caer Albion to leave now and continue this fight at some other (more prepared) time.


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

If Xath ends up wishing to/wanting to/getting to use the Greater Transfer Pregnancy spell.... that would just be weird.  Well the spell is anyways, but she would be having Archonus Arrendor's child, and it would be hers too... but not through an act they did.... 
For some reason this seems like the worst 'where do babies come from? Was that what happened with me?' Question from the five year old kid....


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

*For Caer Albion*

So we have to find out what secrets they are protecting? Can we move them, get them out, destroy them?

It seems, lending them a hand until they decide they must flee is still better then not going at all.  They have said they will stay.  They are showing they will stay and die to the last.  We can go and give them a least a little strength maybe saving at least one mage maybe not, but we will also be deflating the enemy even if just by a few.

If 'the blood of innocents is not on our hands' anyways, then helping them fight may give give them hope, but that means they will fight that much better before they die. Grim out look yes, but....


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Just so it's not later said that I didn't warn you, AB probably won't jump on this bandwagon without significant prompting. If he wins the blades, he'll want to be able to do what he pleases with them. He fundamentally believes in your cause, but he still has to sell this war at home. Nobody wants to fight and die (or re-die) if there's no potential reward. Heck, even when there is a potential reward, people don't usually want to do that. So prepare to be diplomatic, and prepare to duel the Universe with words! That's right...your next encounter may be with....*drum roll* *The Devil's Advocate! **cymbal crash!* But not that stupid movie....



He doesn't jump on any band wagon except the broody one 

Then diplom. away- that's supposedly why we have these good speakers with rediculously high bonus to back them up.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 25, 2004)

Looking at this from Jaine's perspective: the transfer pregnancy idea should be the last resort... she is already shamed by having a child out of wedlock-- not only have a child out of wedlock... but, having the father of that child simply desert her to be with another woman mere days after their encounter.  She is embarassed as all get out...

I think, we should explore the options of pulling a Queen Amidala: get a body double for Jaine... teleport the real Jaine and her nurses out of Hyrwl to someplace protected and safe (yet to be determined) where she can have the child.

After which, the child can be raised without any knowledge of his noble heritage.

It is not a whole lot better for Jaine... but, at least she gets to have her child without being propositioned by the woman that stole her husband-to-be... and, if she truly desires, she may be able to bring her son forward someday without have it be *weird*... 

Picture this 18 years from now... well, yes, this is my son... but, I magically put him in this other chicks uterus... ya see, times were hard...

However, picture this 18 years from now... in midst of war and instability, I opted to give my child up for adoption... now that I am the queen of a stable county, I would like to bring him forward as a legitimate heir to my throne after my death.

Not totally thought out... but, something to think about, that's for sure... magic doesn't need to be the answer to everything... more importantly, there is a PrC designed specifically for the "Royal Body Double" thing... that in combination with a circlet of persuasion and a bitchin' cloak of cha. could make a pretty convincing Jaine.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 25, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> So we have to find out what secrets they are protecting? Can we move them, get them out, destroy them?
> 
> It seems, lending them a hand until they decide they must flee is still better then not going at all.  They have said they will stay.  They are showing they will stay and die to the last.  We can go and give them a least a little strength maybe saving at least one mage maybe not, but we will also be deflating the enemy even if just by a few.
> 
> If 'the blood of innocents is not on our hands' anyways, then helping them fight may give give them hope, but that means they will fight that much better before they die. Grim out look yes, but....



 I'm not saying we shouldn't go-- far from it.  I do not think we should go with the "fight until there's nothing left" mentality.  The end goal cannot be retreat.  If that's the case, skip the fighting and possibly dying and get right to the retreating before too many mages are dead to make it a possibility.


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

Girls have Cooties, and Xath has someone else's baby...?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 25, 2004)

I agree there is value is slowing down some of the heavy hitters... but, we need to keep in mind that they WANT to stay... so, it seems that helping them fight only delays the inevitable.

If they are going to run away, we should try to convince them to do that before we fight on their behalf.  If we can convince them to come with us, we will save SO many more lives than if we fight until we can't fight anymore.

If we get them out ASAP, we would have the resources of Talon HQ on our side.


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## Xath (Oct 25, 2004)

Just for note, Xath is not saying that she wants to have Jaine and Archon's baby.  I (Gertie) put that spell up there so that we would know all of the options.  Xath would not suggest this, nor would she fight for it.  However, if Jaine and Archon decide this to be the best course of action, Xath may be persuaded to do it.  

And hey, the only reason I thought of it was because Jaine mentioned it in a convo that i have not yet had the chance to write up prettily.  Not that she actually meant it.  It just gave me the idea.  So don't think that my posting of the thread reflects Xath's intentions in any way.


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## Laurel (Oct 25, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Looking at this from Jaine's perspective: the transfer pregnancy idea should be the last resort... she is already shamed by having a child out of wedlock-- not only have a child out of wedlock... but, having the father of that child simply desert her to be with another woman mere days after their encounter. She is embarassed as all get out...
> I think, we should explore the options of pulling a Queen Amidala: get a body double for Jaine... teleport the real Jaine and her nurses out of Hyrwl to someplace protected and safe (yet to be determined) where she can have the child.
> After which, the child can be raised without any knowledge of his noble heritage.
> It is not a whole lot better for Jaine... but, at least she gets to have her child without being propositioned by the woman that stole her husband-to-be... and, if she truly desires, she may be able to bring her son forward someday without have it be *weird*...
> ...



Even if she just gives up the child at all 18 years from now she may be trying to tell someone or a whole kigdom of her shame and how times were hard. One way she transfers the baby so from pregnancy there is a link between mother and child or after, but the kid is still being given up. Only way stop those possibly futures is for her to keep the baby and publicly proclaim the out-of-wedlock kid.

In order to do the above plan option we need a safe place to send her and the maids to...?
Is there anyone she trusts that she could give the child to mark or not and be okay that the dirty laudry won't show up in 18 years or that she will not be blackmailed by a greedy person? Who would she give it to so it seems plausible for that person to have gotten the child? Do we wait and see if it bears the mark, and if it does have ring made and given to adopted mother?

Edit: Using the spell is on just someone- if there would be anyone Jaine could/would do this with.  I think Xath would be the hardest choice for Jaine, but the easiest to answer questions.  Overall though, and Jaine would have to agree it would solve her problem.  She looses the baby, and only a very few know it has been transferred. No pesky questions, but it means with this route she does loose the child until or if she ever needs to/is willing to admit to the child.

But now we can add other idea to the list of Jaine's options, since she ultimately gets to decide and choose.

So
8) Royal double and adoption


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## The_Universe (Oct 25, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Looking at this from Jaine's perspective: the transfer pregnancy idea should be the last resort... she is already shamed by having a child out of wedlock-- not only have a child out of wedlock... but, having the father of that child simply desert her to be with another woman mere days after their encounter. She is embarassed as all get out...
> 
> I think, we should explore the options of pulling a Queen Amidala: get a body double for Jaine... teleport the real Jaine and her nurses out of Hyrwl to someplace protected and safe (yet to be determined) where she can have the child.
> 
> ...



Transferring the baby is no more shameful than a modern woman having an abortion in real life. Less so, in fact, since the child does not die. Getting rid of the child in a way that allows it to have a happy life may be what she chooses to do. Real mothers give up babies for adoption every day...this might be no more than a VERY EARLY adoption. 

It's really not a matter, in a pragmatic sense, of personal shame. Its a matter of succession. Think about it in those terms. Jaine will have to be convinced no matter what - but _all_ of her options suck right now, so try to remember that the line between right and wrong is not all that clear in this case.


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## The_Universe (Oct 26, 2004)

A general note: as soon as Jaine seems to become not-pregnant, the child cannot be brought back in as a legitimate heir.  

If this child ever wants to legally sit upon the Phoenix Throne, it must be born to Jaine, legitimately or otherwise.  I was going to say publicly, but that's not precisely what I meant...she's not going to have the kid in the town square.    But, people have to know that it is her child in order to make it a legitimate heir.


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## The_Universe (Oct 26, 2004)

*Direction, albeit not yet a plan....*

On another note.... 

Am I right in saying that the msot important plan, as of the moment, is this: 

1) The Circle of the Phoenix is going to travel to Caer Albion, to scout, and perhaps to plan some daring-doings

2) AB will be enlisted to use the Bluestar's forces to run interference on the Isle of Mourning. You hope to negotiate so that, should be find the blades, you can at least get a crack at them before they end up with ol' Blue - Eye. 

3) Some sort of action will be taken, post-plan, in Caer Albion. Mik/Archon may be able to hire some mercenaries to help out. You also have Dwarves, Black Orcs, Ninjas, and the actual Army of the Phoenix to bring to bear, should you choose to. 

Secondarily, you hope to: 

1) Find out more about AB's oath, and why he's always gotta be such a ragin' bitch all the time. 

2) Assuming he doesn't tell you, find out from an associate, maybe even Blue Eye himself. 

3) Through whatever means necessary, break him from his oath

4) Make him marry Jaine and legitimize the child, obviating the need for a fetus-teleport spell, at sword-point if necessary. 

5) Force them to live happily ever after, under pain of torture. (this will likely be achieved by removing all of AB's brooding equipment, and installing floodlamps to minimize shadows. 

Tertiarily, you plan to: 

This part is still fuzzy. But can you at least tell me if the primary and secondary are correct....?


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## The_Universe (Oct 26, 2004)

While speculation has me in its wild and unyielding grip, might this be a good time to speak with dead with the fallen redmage, as Liz has sugggested, and perhaps to engage in a second round of _Communism!?!?!?!?!_

Come up with your questions and ask away.


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## AIM-54 (Oct 26, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> The end goal cannot be retreat.




I'm picking out this phrase in particular as it is emblematic of your (and perhaps everyone else's) confusion/misunderstanding of the basic tenets of guerrilla warfare.  The end goal can absolutely be retreat and in fact must be retreat, AFTER having achieved some objective.  It does not have to be a big objective.  You don't win a guerrilla war in big engagements.  Indeed, those can only weaken us.  We still need to consolidate the forces we have and expand them where we can (I believe Jaine and Co. are supposed to be in charge of recruiting, IIRC).

What we can do is SHOW THE FLAG.  This is the most important thing we can do, in terms of the REBELLION.  The reasons for this I have already gone over and won't go over again, unless someone has a specific question.

I'm not saying we don't go with the intent to encourage people to get out and live to fight another day.  That would probably be the best thing we could do, we need the recruits.  At the same time, we need to show that we are genuinely powerful and take out some bad guys.

Of course, if we're not fighting a guerrilla war, this is all irrelevant.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 26, 2004)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> I'm not saying we don't go with the intent to encourage people to get out and live to fight another day.  That would probably be the best thing we could do, we need the recruits.  At the same time, we need to show that we are genuinely powerful and take out some bad guys.




Based on the work that Mik did last night, we may be able to pull off something similar to a victory in Caer Albion... but, I don't know that I like that plan, either.  Sacrifices too many of our troops... but, that's for another post...

Like I said, I do see the value in knocking out the heavy hitters and generals at Caer Albion... 

The more people that survive Caer Albion, the more people we have on our side... and, based on the importance of some of those people, the more legitimacy we grant our rebellion.

All of my speculation is based on very little information.  We must go and scout.  Caer Albion is very different than Oceanus... being made of Mithril and all... so, it is a fight that is win-able... not by numbers... but, our end goal does not HAVE to be retreat... when I have more time, I'll post some of my ideas to knock out huge numbers of the draconic forces.

Convincing the people of Caer Albion to leave now and come back to fight when our force is larger and more in-charge...r seems, right now, to be the best option and the first avenue we should travel... but, if that does not work, we need to resort to something that will make us seems very powerful... not like a thorn in the side of the draconid forces.


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## The_Universe (Oct 26, 2004)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> I'm picking out this phrase in particular as it is emblematic of your (and perhaps everyone else's) confusion/misunderstanding of the basic tenets of guerrilla warfare. The end goal can absolutely be retreat and in fact must be retreat, AFTER having achieved some objective. It does not have to be a big objective. You don't win a guerrilla war in big engagements. Indeed, those can only weaken us. We still need to consolidate the forces we have and expand them where we can (I believe Jaine and Co. are supposed to be in charge of recruiting, IIRC).
> 
> What we can do is SHOW THE FLAG. This is the most important thing we can do, in terms of the REBELLION. The reasons for this I have already gone over and won't go over again, unless someone has a specific question.
> 
> ...



I think what Liz is referring to is the fact that, if the people defending Caer Albion wished to retreat, they could do so at any time, unless the mage that appeared on your doorstep is _not _emblematic of the type of power they have at their disposal. But, based on what your PCs know, he probably is. The long and short of it is that Caer Albion can probably be evacuated at any given second. 

_That's _why she's been saying that retreat in Caer Albion can't be your goal - it'd be like selling ice to an eskimo, if you get my meaning. 

The people defending it don't want to abandon it, and unlike Oceanus, these guys aren't going to fold after a 45 minute invasion. 

That being said, If you go up, do some damage, make some efficient plays, and it becomes apparent that they HAVE to abandon the city, your having been there might make sure that they evacuate to a place of your choosing and benefit, rather than a place to Tain's.

I hope that makes sense.  I didn't think the essential parts of your messages were getting to each other, Liz and JC, so I thought I might be able to facilitate, a bit.  

But the plan is proceeding apace - you know you're going to Caer Albion, and that makes me a happy panda!


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 26, 2004)

WHOOOO!  I'm on the front page of Enworld!  Huzzah!


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 26, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> WHOOOO!  I'm on the front page of Enworld!  Huzzah!



 Yay for your successful spotting on the d20 Past cover!!  

You're the winner! And famous!


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 26, 2004)

So-- scouting out Caer Albion...

DM: are we doing this during the next session?  Or over the boards/email?


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 26, 2004)

Either way works for me.   

I would suggest you take care of the speak with dead/commune stuff electronically, though.


----------



## Laurel (Oct 26, 2004)

*Playing catch-up at lunch *



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> While speculation has me in its wild and unyielding grip, might this be a good time to speak with dead with the fallen redmage, as Liz has sugggested, and perhaps to engage in a second round of _Communism!?!?!?!?!_
> 
> Come up with your questions and ask away.



Some suggestions:
Who is charge? Who was in chrage when you left Caer Albion?
What talons remain?  
What is the central point of the city?
What secrets hold them there?

-If we are limited to yes and no?-
Has all non-military left the city?
Where any able to get out?
Had the wall been breached?
Was there deciet from within the city?
Did they attack from direction only?
Do you hold the secret of Mordred's tomb?
Does Caer Albion hold knowledge of Mordred or his tomb?


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## The_Universe (Oct 26, 2004)

I might reserve Commune for some of the larger questions, while using Speak with Dead for some of the tactical level stuff.


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## The_Universe (Oct 26, 2004)

2x post!


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## The_Universe (Oct 26, 2004)

*Force Planning*

Not including mages of varying shapes, sizes, and flavors, the Army of the Phoenix is: 

Black Orcs (standard)............1400
Black Orc Cutters...................180
Black Orc Crushers....................8
Elven Rangers.........................23
Palden's Legion......................800
Palden's Officers......................10
New Oceanus Militia..............1177
Dwarven Warriors.................1000
Dwarven Defenders................480
Ryoko's Ninja/ Samurai...........1000
Shadows of the Phoenix............50
Justice's Paladins...................110
*TOTAL...............................6238*

For the spellcasting populace of the Hyrwl/New Oceanus Metropoliton area, the numbers are: 

Bluemages.............................500
Red mages............................250
White Mages...........................93
Xath's Bards..........................110
*TOTAL.................................953*

If you're interested in the relative levels of all of the troops, let me know, and I can provide them. They are widely disparate, so I decided not to post them here.


----------



## Xath (Oct 27, 2004)

I apologize on behalf of my character for inflicting 110 new bards onto the kingdom.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Actually, only about 20 could be bards.  The rest are probably adepts, at the moment.


----------



## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

*Yet another dumb question*



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> Bluemages.............................500
> Red mages............................250
> White Mages...........................93



Blue Mages = Wizards
Red Mages = Sorc.
White Mages = ?


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Clerics.  There are more people who are "clerics" in the encampment, but only 93 are SPELLCASTERS!


----------



## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

*I could be crazy but.....*



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> On another note....
> Am I right in saying that the msot important plan, as of the moment, is this:
> 1) The Circle of the Phoenix is going to travel to Caer Albion, to scout, and perhaps to plan some daring-doings
> 2) AB will be enlisted to use the Bluestar's forces to run interference on the Isle of Mourning. You hope to negotiate so that, should be find the blades, you can at least get a crack at them before they end up with ol' Blue - Eye.
> 3) Some sort of action will be taken, post-plan, in Caer Albion. Mik/Archon may be able to hire some mercenaries to help out. You also have Dwarves, Black Orcs, Ninjas, and the actual Army of the Phoenix to bring to bear, should you choose to.



I'd say number one in some fashion has been agreed upon by all- We have to go to Caer Albion and the six of us must be part of (or the whole of the group) that goes to help.

Number two in the same way has been agreed- we must do something to slow down the forces on the island or get the blades off before the draconids find them. AB is about all we have that could lead and succeed in such a mission. 
?Would he be calling upon the forces of the bluestar to help him or would he be taking our troops? I thought it was Bluestar forces, but want to ask..... 
And I think we realize that unless we can convince him otherwise, the blades will go North. Leaving us with only possibly being able to keep any, if we obtain them, from Caer Albion.

Number three I am not sure on.... what mercenaries? Is this another Arhconus runs off and makes a deal for everyone  
Only after we get to Caer Albion will we know what or if anything more can be done. All the other forces need to be ready to be called, of course. Then with the minute man approach we can use those forces as needed- strategically


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

As of yet, you have attracted no Green mages (druids) that you are aware of - at least in part because there aren't a lot of Green mages out there.  L'Aurel's probably the only one any of you have met, with the possible exception of Link's daughter....


----------



## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> As of yet, you have attracted no Green mages (druids) that you are aware of - at least in part because there aren't a lot of Green mages out there. L'Aurel's probably the only one any of you have met, with the possible exception of Link's daughter....



Except the regent or former regent of Hywrl... or did he die?


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> I'd say number one in some fashion has been agreed upon by all- We have to go to Caer Albion and the six of must be part of or at first the whole of the group that goes to help.



Some sort of scouting by the circle should be done, regardless of whether you're ultimately going to bring some of your forces to bear in Caer Albion.  The type of aid you offer should ultimately be decided by that.  



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> Number two in the same way has been agreed- we must do something to slow down the forces on the island or get the blades off before the draconids find them. AB is about all we have that could lead and succeed in such a mission.
> ?Would he be calling upon the forces of the bluestar to help him or would he be taking our troops? I thought it was Bluestar forces, but that will just ensure that the bluestar gets the blades after the fighting.



 I _thought_ the idea was that he would use his own troops, freeing yours up for use elsewhere (like Caer Albion). You are unware of the numbers/types of troops he has, as of so far.  



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> And I think we realize that unless we can convince him otherwise, the blades will go North. Leaving us with only possibly being able to keep any, if we obtain them, from Caer Albion.



Right.  That's the way it stands in the status quo - since he's risking his people's collective butt, he wants to be able to reap the reward (which he has assured you is to your benefit, anyway).  



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> Number three I am not sure on.... what mercenaries? Only after we get to Caer Albion will we know what or if anything more can be done. All the other forces need to be ready to be called, of course. Then with the minute man approach use those forces as we can- strategically



 There are mercenary troops out there, generally operating on or around the Wall.  Mik has proposed (but has not posted) hiring between 1000-2000 mercs using his share of the treasure, for a period of approximately 60 days.  This would take them off of the wall, which could be dangerous, but as Oceanus has proven, the Bluestar seems capable of getting his troops across it, at least, with impugnity.  So, mercs off the wall is probably not all that big of a loss.  

After the 60 days is up, he's hoping to have acquired enough adventuring funds to renew their contract, or barring that, offer the merc leaders lands and titles in the Phoenix Kingdom, should it ever come to pass.  

I'm speaking for Mik from memory, so I could have it all wrong.  But that's what I *think* his idea was.


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## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Secondarily, you hope to:
> 1) Find out more about AB's oath, and why he's always gotta be such a ragin' bitch all the time.
> 2) Assuming he doesn't tell you, find out from an associate, maybe even Blue Eye himself.
> 3) Through whatever means necessary, break him from his oath
> ...



L'aurel's been able to figure out some things she_ thinks _are right about AB:
1) Even if old blue unbound him, he wouldn't see it that way- there is only a very specific way he- yes he- would relinquish the oath.
2) He made the oath to save lives, many lives, lives of those he cared about, our lives.
3) He will lead you to a conclusion, but then will not tell you if you are right or not... so asking him will not get us far. Broody- it's problem if we knew we would just feel bad, so he can't tell us for our own sake.

For the baby:
1) AB can't be forced into it, or else why not force someone else.
2) Jaine won't have the baby as pawn of Bluestar, so once oath is broken he better know how to reassure her it won't happen again.
3) He likes her but with his oath won't be or get close to anyone.... afraid good ol' blue will use and twist it or them.
4) Find out if Jaine even still loves Archonus... if she could/does have feelings for AB...

Taking away the broody equipment and installing floodlamps are a good idea no matter what


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> As of yet, you have attracted no Green mages (druids) that you are aware of - at least in part because there aren't a lot of Green mages out there.  L'Aurel's probably the only one any of you have met, with the possible exception of Link's daughter....



 Dorn has to be a Druid-- he raised Xath...

So, there's at least two that we know of.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Except the regent or former regent of Hywrl... or did he die?



 He's still alive, I just forgot about him.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Dorn has to be a Druid-- he raised Xath...
> 
> So, there's at least two that we know of.



 You've also seen Dorn turn undead and use a straight sword. He's obviously a special case.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

So-- we get a body double that is "Jaine's sister" (but, it's really Jaine... so, the body double is actually pretending to be the real Jaine while the real Jaine is pretending to be her own sister)... and "Jaine's sister" is pregnant... but, 7 months from now "Jaine's sister" "dies" in child birth and Jaine adopts the child as her own.


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## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Dorn has to be a Druid-- he raised Xath...
> So, there's at least two that we know of.



I'm confused.... but nothin' new there.


----------



## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> So-- we get a body double that is "Jaine's sister" (but, it's really Jaine... so, the body double is actually pretending to be the real Jaine while the real Jaine is pretending to be her own sister)... and "Jaine's sister" is pregnant... but, 7 months from now "Jaine's sister" "dies" in child birth and Jaine adopts the child as her own.



It would make the blood tie stronger so passing the crown on shouldn't be as big an issue... unless Jaine has other kids in which case she just has more dumpy choices.
We just have to hope no one in the Rhynn Family knows or will fight the whole 'sister' thing... long lost sister appearing and all....


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## Xath (Oct 27, 2004)

Except that all of Jaine's immediate family was killed by Tain *cough* i mean, assassins.....

Any legitimate family of Jaine's would be known of by the Noble's council.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

Then I want the spells HE has!

Is the a domain that grants you the Reincarnation ability if you are not a druid? hmmm...


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> I'm confused.... but nothin' new there.



 Druids are the only class with access to reincarnate.


----------



## Xath (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Then I want the spells HE has!
> 
> Is the a domain that grants you the ressurection ability if you are not a druid? hmmm...




I thought it was an "I'm crazy so I'm tapping into forbidden magic" ability.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Except that all of Jaine's immediate family was killed by Tain *cough* i mean, assassins.....
> 
> Any legitimate family of Jaine's would be known of by the Noble's council.



 It was really a serious suggestion... a ridiculous idea brought on by too much work and too little sleep...

But, I suppose, at this point it's as plausible as any other plan.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> So-- we get a body double that is "Jaine's sister" (but, it's really Jaine... so, the body double is actually pretending to be the real Jaine while the real Jaine is pretending to be her own sister)... and "Jaine's sister" is pregnant... but, 7 months from now "Jaine's sister" "dies" in child birth and Jaine adopts the child as her own.



 WOW that's complicated.  Jaine doesn't have any immediate family, though...the closest were her cousins the Rhynns, in Thanesport - remember?  I think the AB plan is still the best, if you can convince him.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

Or a "I'm the DM and I can make my NPCs do anything they want because I never actually write them up" ability...

... I wish MY characters could have THAT ability.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> WOW that's complicated.  Jaine doesn't have any immediate family, though...the closest were her cousins the Rhynns, in Thanesport - remember?  I think the AB plan is still the best, if you can convince him.



 Maybe the more complicated things are the less likely anyone else is going to catch on...  Maybe that has always been our goal... we operate under a clever mask of ineptititude (is that spelled right... is that even a world?) when really... it is us being overly complicated to throw the enemy off!  HAHA!


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> I'm confused.... but nothin' new there.



 Dorn cast "Reincarnate" which appears only on the Druid spell list, not the cleric list.  Reincarnate is the lowest-level "bring you back to life" spell, and is considered the least powerful because you 1) don't come back in your own body and 2) still lose a level.  

L'Aurel had "Resurrection" cast on her, which is a higher-level version of Raise Dead.  Both of those are Cleric, not Druid Spells.  She just came back in Selura's body...because.  Mostly because we thought it would be cool.  So, the spells were essentially different, but I let you use the effect of a lower-level version, since it was ultimately really cool.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> WOW that's complicated.  Jaine doesn't have any immediate family, though...the closest were her cousins the Rhynns, in Thanesport - remember?  I think the AB plan is still the best, if you can convince him.



 It's her TWIN SISTER that is exactly like her in every way... except even more broody... 

...

I'm not just pulling this stuff out of thin air, you see.  I'm pulling it from Justice's experiences... 

If people believe in the two Archons...they should belive in the two Jaines.


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## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

HAHAHAHAAHA!  Okay so I read raised and thought no fair elves raised her then sent her off to be with dwarves..... :? 

He's a multiclasser, but emphasis on cleric.

And ressurection is cleric, reincarnate is druid....


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Except that all of Jaine's immediate family was killed by Tain *cough* i mean, assassins.....
> 
> Any legitimate family of Jaine's would be known of by the Noble's council.



Right. Jaine has no living immediate family as far as the Noble's Council goes. But, to be fair, she was officially "dead," as well, until she started popping up a few years before you guys came back on the scene. So, you could make the plan work, if she ever had a sister. 

What Jaine DOESN'T have, is a sister, at all. She's an only child, which is why she was the Rhynn candidate for Queen.

EDIT: None of this is to say you couldn't gin something up....it's just VERY complicated.  I think it's an interesting idea. The most reliable (probably) solution apart from AB...

As for the Validity of AA/AB, remember that AB isn't claiming to be related to (or the same guy) as AA.  HE says he's an evil doppelganger, undeserving of happiness, sunshine, and cookies.  HE says he's a twisted servant of the Bluestar, even if Preston and Dorn say that's not the case.  Two Jaine's wouldn't be the same thing, at all....


----------



## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

*Took out the REALLY retarded ones*

Solutions we have for The Baby:
1) Get AB to Marry Jaine
2) Find someone who loves Jaine, and is okay to take her unborn kid as 'his'
3) Jaine's 'sister' is pregnant, has kid, dies, Jaine adopts kid
4) L'aurel takes it -however-
5) Jaine double (Hwyrl), Jaine has baby elsewhere, gives kid up for adoption
6) As per spell have someone take Jaine's baby for her
7) AA Marries Jaine


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

I think it would appear to be the same thing through the eyes of peasants-- we know there is a difference... but, I think most commoners just think 'Oh, two Archons... they must be brothers.'


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Or a "I'm the DM and I can make my NPCs do anything they want because I never actually write them up" ability...
> 
> ... I wish MY characters could have THAT ability.



 Well, Dorn is ACTUALLY a little bit of the "I'm the DM and can do what I want" and a little bit of "I'm Crazy and tapping into forbidden magics"  

He really DOESN'T have stats, as of so far, but I did pick the druid spell on purpose, knowing it would be incongruous with what you all expected.  

I could explain it by multiclassing, but I'll probably go with something more exotic, if it ever becomes necessary.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I think it would appear to be the same thing through the eyes of peasants-- we know there is a difference... but, I think most commoners just think 'Oh, two Archons... they must be brothers.'



 That's plausible.  But remember that this little ruse (whatever it is) it not necessarily set up to decieve YOUR commoners.  It's being set up to decieve the OTHER commoners/nobles, because they're the ones you need to convince to join you.  It may work like a dream on commoners, but it's not going to fool nobles unless you can come up with a good story as to where the sister came from...?


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Solutions we have for The Baby:
> 1) Get AB to Marry Jaine
> 2) Find someone who loves Jaine, and is okay to take her unborn kid as 'his'
> 3) Jaine's 'sister' is pregnant, has kid, dies, Jaine adopts kid
> ...




(1) It could work-- but, it could also put the whole kingdom on the line if we don't find a way to break the magical oath that the Lord of Undead placed on AB... for some reason, his dominion over undead makes me question whether or not killing him would release him from the oath at all... so, really, I may not like this idea at all.

(2) Also insert "and that Jaine loves and wouldn't mind spending the rest of her life with"

(3) A little complicated... but it could work.

(4) I would have no objections to L'Aurel adopting the kid after it's born... but, at least one of the transfer pregnancy spells would alter the DNA... might not want to do that with L'aurels... ya know.. scales.

(5)  I think it would work just as well as transfering the pregnancy.

(6) See (5)

(7) Really, I think this is the best idea.  It is AA's child and, as such, AA's responsibility.  It's not like Jaine is a super slut out having sex with a bunch of men-- she gave herself to Archonus out of love.  Having AB marry her seems selfish of AA.  If it were me, I would own up to the obligations and marry Jaine.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

Wait a second...

What happened to Filmore?  I know their marriage was a ruse... but-- wasn't it an actual marriage?  Couldn't he fess up to Archonus' dirty deed?

And... How does divorce work in KoA?


----------



## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> (1) It could work-- but, it could also put the whole kingdom on the line if we don't find a way to break the magical oath that the Lord of Undead placed on AB... for some reason, his dominion over undead makes me question whether or not killing him would release him from the oath at all... so, really, I may not like this idea at all.
> 
> (2) Also insert "and that Jaine loves and wouldn't mind spending the rest of her life with"
> 
> ...



Agreement on almost everything-
1) maybe complex but if it can be worked out on the front end it has the least problems on the tail end.  Though getting rid of the oath within the next few days may prove to be a serious issue/problem.

4) the lesser of the spells doesn't change DNA, and really this would only be good for knowing the person with the kid will keep 100% quiet about it from that point on- no future blackmailing, no future oops told the world.

7) Agreed, except now it would not be a happy life for them... he should have started with owning up to his mistake or telling Xath something sooner before he knew Jaine was pregnant.  Instead he waited till everything else had happened, thus having three people's lives royally messed up.  But it seems every so slowly he is learning


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Wait a second...
> 
> What happened to Filmore?  I know their marriage was a ruse... but-- wasn't it an actual marriage?  Couldn't he fess up to Archonus' dirty deed?
> 
> And... How does divorce work in KoA?



 It was not an actual marriage.  The whole thing was a ruse to strengthen their claim to the throne, and it could have been legitimated had they been successful in their bid.  Since they weren't, over time, their affections faded.  

In the words of Dr. Evil, "Things got weird, didn't they?"


----------



## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Wait a second...What happened to Filmore? I know their marriage was a ruse... but-- wasn't it an actual marriage? Couldn't he fess up to Archonus' dirty deed?  And... How does divorce work in KoA?



not sure about the marriage aspect, (Kennon knows for sure) but I thought it was just a ruse as in they just said they were married.  They never spoke the vows and never consumated it.  It was just something to tell possible allies.  Two possible heirs to the throne joining together is better then one is all equal.

There is NO trusting Filmore from L'Aurel's stand point!  AB is more trustworthy then Filmore at this point.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> 7) Agreed, except now it would not be a happy life for them... he should have started with owning up to his mistake or telling Xath something sooner before he knew Jaine was pregnant.  Instead he waited till everything else had happened, thus having three people's lives royally messed up.  But it seems every so slowly he is learning




Indeed, it sucks BIG TIME... but, if he goes back now and the wed, the lives that are screwed up number 3... if he doesn't, it could seriously endanger not only our entire rebellion, but the entire kingdom.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> (7) Really, I think this is the best idea. It is AA's child and, as such, AA's responsibility. It's not like Jaine is a super slut out having sex with a bunch of men-- she gave herself to Archonus out of love. Having AB marry her seems selfish of AA. If it were me, I would own up to the obligations and marry Jaine.



This could have worked BEFORE the Archon Xath thing, but is unlikely to work, now.  This train has left the station.  If Jaine wanted this to happen, she would have suggested it, already.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

The fact remains that Jaine is not going to want to marry Archonus Arendorr in the status quo.  He'd have to somehow convince Jaine that he in fact still loved her for her to even consider it.  She might have to marry someone out of duty to the kingdom, but because of the way she was treated, it will _not_ be Archonus Arendorr, unless he can effectively pretend that he never really loved Xath, and was mind-controlled or something.  

Jaine understands duty, but she's a person, too.  AA is EXTRAORDINARILY unlikely to be an acceptable choice.


----------



## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

*#7 is far at the bottom it should be taken off the list*

So What about "2) Find someone who loves Jaine, and is okay to take her unborn kid as his."

Is there anyone she has been looking at? Leaning on more then others? Is there anyone who has been looking at her in the lovey-dovey way? Making sure to be in her presence at all possible times? NPC's?

Even if it's not an earth shattering love that binds the two, if her future husband is one that has loved her from a far kind of thing and she at least likes him. It looks to be a good solid and possibly content and happy marriage.

Not a bad outcome..... anyone?


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> So what about "2) Find someone who loves Jaine, and is okay to take her unborn kid as 'his'"
> 
> Is there anyone she has been looking at? leaning on more then others? Is there anyone who has been looking at her in the lovey-dovey way?  Making sure to be in her presence at all possible moments if possible? NPC's?
> 
> ...



 This would be alright, but there really isn't anybody.  Since she arrived here in Hyrwl/New Oceanus, she was close to Archonus, and then she got burned and pregnant, and so she hasn't really been _close_ to anybody since then.  

She has servants and advisors, but no one that she confides in, save you.  In short - Jaine's life sucks.


----------



## Xath (Oct 27, 2004)

Jaine's Options (in order of what's best for the kingdom)

1.  Archon Arendorr marries's Jaine.  It make her claim for the throne stronger because the Arendorr line also has strong ties.  Their child, legitimized would have more claim to the falcon kingdom than any other noble family.  It also doesn't involve us making up rediculously complicated lies and deceiving the people who's trust we want.

2.  Jaine is no longer pregnant.  Whether she gives the baby to another person or takes another alternative, this option gives the rebellion a strong leader.  If Jaine's no longer pregnant, she can be cured.  If she is cured, she can resume her full duties.  It gives the falcon kingdom a strong ruling figure, and does not open any legitimacy/skank issues.

3.  Jaine marries someone else.  Preferably human, or a derivative therof.  This gives the child some legitimacy, unless of course, the child is born with the mark.  Even if she marries AB, don't forget, we're not the only people with access to spells like Commune.  If Commune can reveal the truth about Tain to us, it can reveal Jaine's deceptions to the Noble's Council.  The less we lie to people the better.


----------



## Xath (Oct 27, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> This would be alright, but there really isn't anybody.  Since she arrived here in Hyrwl/New Oceanus, she was close to Archonus, and then she got burned and pregnant, and so she hasn't really been _close_ to anybody since then.
> 
> She has servants and advisors, but no one that she confides in, save you.  In short - Jaine's life sucks.





No matter how much of an (buthole) Archonus has been, some of the blame for this still falls on Jaine.  I mean, the woman put out on the first date, without taking any precautions.  And it wasn't really a date.  Sheesh.  Did she expect him to propose to her after one day?  Youth is no excuse for stupidity, especially if said youth is entrusted with leading a rebellion.

She should take responsibility for her actions and accept the concequences.  

Not to say that Archon didn't handle the situation poorly.


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## Xath (Oct 27, 2004)

The more complicated the lie, the easier it is to trip ourselves up in it.  And we don't want a nation based on deceit.  That's what we're fighting against.


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## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

This is a good list, and seems pretty accurate based on what's best for the kingdom.  However, remember that something CRAZY would have to happen to convince her that 1. was right for HER.


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## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

Blame lies on many parties for the events to get to this point.... but moving blame doesn't shift events.

So moving towards a solution... getting closer... and closer..... I'm likin' the discussion by the way


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## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

*Unless we find someone FAST three is out....*

From Gertie's list 2 looks like the compromise of what's best for the kingdom and  for Jaine.... but has Jaine said or mentioned to anyone being okay with giving up the kid? For adoption? For whatever?


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## Xath (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> From Gertie's list 2 looks like the compromise of what's best for the kingdom and  for Jaine.... but has Jaine said or mentioned to anyone being okay with giving up the kid? For adoption? For whatever?




Option 2 would have to be sooner than "adoption."  She can't continue to grow larger without perpetuating the problem.  You're probably looking at transfering a pregnancy here.  And I for one say that anyone in the circle is automatically disqualified from taking the child, unless specifically asked to do so by Jaine.  It's risky to drag a pregnant circle member around for 6 months, and we can't take that time off.  

So essentially what we need is a nobody, preferably a nobody who already has children.  And most likely someone outside of the Hyrule/New Oceanus region.  A clean break would probably be better than having Jaine watch someone grow with her child more and more every day, and then watch that child. Also, the fewer people who know who the intended parent, the better.


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## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

We should offer up Kareth's mom and then do the unwilling transfer.... 

Oh! what you don't like that?  Okay then....

I agree that using anyone of the circle is bad, but if Justice didn't have the ring and got pregnant would she stop fighting?  No we can't just sit it out for a few months, and we wouldn't have to.  Liz had a good thread (that I am trying to find again) about adventuring while pregnant.  Still very possible all the way through, and from a PC knowledge point the Amastatia (one of those heroes from the last great war) travelled and faught while pregnant.

I'm not saying we should be pushing for this, or put this forward first.... but as stated if Jaine where to request/ask/hint at it, it can and should remain an open option.


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## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Option 2 would have to be sooner than "adoption." She can't continue to grow larger without perpetuating the problem. You're probably looking at transfering a pregnancy here. And I for one say that anyone in the circle is automatically disqualified from taking the child, unless specifically asked to do so by Jaine. It's risky to drag a pregnant circle member around for 6 months, and we can't take that time off.
> 
> So essentially what we need is a nobody, preferably a nobody who already has children. And most likely someone outside of the Hyrule/New Oceanus region. A clean break would probably be better than having Jaine watch someone grow with her child more and more every day, and then watch that child. Also, the fewer people who know who the intended parent, the better.




Assuming that Jaine is seriously willing to give up her child, which she may not be.


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## Xath (Oct 27, 2004)

Well then, what does she want?  She can't just have everything her way when she won't point out any options.  And despite the fact that stupidity got her into this mess, she has to realize that leaving things as they are is dangerous in a physical and political sense to her, her child, and the rebellion.  So something has to be done.  Is this the circle's business?  Not really, any more than we are some of her political advisors.  This is something that should be worked out between Jaine and Archon, but something has to be done, and it has to be done soon.

She has to stop moping and do something about this or she could jeopardize any claims of legitamacy with the noble's council.


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## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

*Good question!*

So we came up with a list of options... since she wasn't a part of the discussion, someone needs to take her the options we have. It should be Archonus.

Until then we can't go any further, but once she decides what she is willing to do then we go from there. If she decides she can't agree to anything we have put forth then there is only so far we can help her.

What she tells us though I guess is the only way we can move past the purly well she would say, she might say, he did say, they would say stages.

If we still need to hammer out the options more then go to it... but the responces seem to be heading into all the what if's. We need her input before we can go further..... 

Thoughts?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

A Moment to Defend Jaine:

Xath may feel like Jaine is the her man's "baby momma"-- but, when she and Archonus had sex, she was under the impression that he loved her.  Moreover, when in love with an adventurer, you do what you must-- and you do it quickly.  

Archonus could be killed at any moment.  If you were in her shoes, what would you have done?  It was not stupidity that got her into this mess-- it was Archonus' lie.  To mislead her and have her believe that he loved her is what started this whole mess and now we want HER to give up the baby?

That's a little ridiculous on all our parts.


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## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

yes things happen fast no matter if for adventurer ofr not times are that people don't live really long lives and with a price on her head and Archconus' she may have rushed things.... but he never said I love you.  Whatever impression she got it was only that an impression.  One that I must say others helped along-remembering some questions Jaine asked someone on how Arhconus felt.... 

but it doesn't matter who's at fault or by how much.  What's done is done for better or in the case for far worse.  It sucks all around, and we can argue over who it sucks more for, but again that still won't solve the issue.  It effects far more then three people or even just the circle-  it effects the new kingdom.
Many things have and did go wrong, but the point is to now to fix it as best as possible.

We have a list of options, it is Jaine's turn to pick from those or start suggestings others.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

Additionally, everyone assumes that Jaine prefers her role as queen to the role of mother...  Maybe she will simply choose to step down and choose her child over the throne.

If it were me in her shoes, that would be my choice.


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## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> So we came up with a list of options... since she wasn't a part of the discussion, someone needs to take her the options we have. It should be Archonus.



 I will agree, under the assumption that this is a discussion that Xath, L'aurel, and Justice are having IN CHARACTER.  I don't want Archon to take her the options, and then have Xath mad because he suggested one of the things on the list she made.   It's gotten silly enough, already.  



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> Thoughts?



I also think you need to find out more from/about AB before you proceed.  If you can de-broodify him, a bit, he may be the solution to almost all of these problems.  But you need to know more about his oath, and he ain't telling.  Remember that it's like dealing with the REAL Archon, but even more broody.  Tailor your tactics as such.


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## Xath (Oct 27, 2004)

> Xath may feel like Jaine is the her man's "baby momma"-- but, when she and Archonus had sex, she was under the impression that he loved her.  Moreover, when in love with an adventurer, you do what you must-- and you do it quickly.




No.  When you're the leader of a rebellion you contemplate the concequences of all of your actions.  Haste is no excuse for stupidity or irresponsibility.  So what if she thought he loved her?  They had known each other for at most, a few weeks.  I have my doubts as to Jaine's authority on the meaning of love; this is the second time she thought she was, and it turned out to be nothing.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  



> Archonus could be killed at any moment.  If you were in her shoes, what would you have done?




Not touching this with a stick.



> It was not stupidity that got her into this mess-- it was Archonus' lie.




Oh, I think I can make a pretty good arguement for this being stupidity, albiet on both their parts.  Jaine is not the pure innocent here; sure Archon was a complete jerk afterwards, but this situation is partially her fault and she can't escape that.  Archonus told her he loved her, which may or may not have been true at the time.  So what?  Someone says that, and so you throw caution to the wind and decide to jeopardize everything you've been working for for the past 6 years for one night of fun?  That is stupid; no ifs ands or buts about it. 



> To mislead her and have her believe that he loved her is what started this whole mess and now we want HER to give up the baby?




Uh...I believe the inital situation had mutual consent, if a bit reluctant on one side.  I'm not saying she _ has_ to give up the baby.  I'm saying she has to do something.  




> Additionally, everyone assumes that Jaine prefers her role as queen to the role of mother... Maybe she will simply choose to step down and choose her child over the throne.




If those are her priorities, she has no business being queen.  The lives of thousands of people can not be put at risk for the life of one, no matter how close that one is.  That is one of the burdens of rulership.  That burden is what got her into this mess into the first place, I believe it was..."I just want to be a _woman_ for once" or something like that.


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## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Well then, what does she want?  She can't just have everything her way when she won't point out any options.  And despite the fact that stupidity got her into this mess, she has to realize that leaving things as they are is dangerous in a physical and political sense to her, her child, and the rebellion.  So something has to be done.  Is this the circle's business?  Not really, any more than we are some of her political advisors.  This is something that should be worked out between Jaine and Archon, but something has to be done, and it has to be done soon.
> 
> She has to stop moping and do something about this or she could jeopardize any claims of legitamacy with the noble's council.



 Maybe you should ask her? Maybe all of you should ask her, rather than sending the worst communicator in the group in after her?


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## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

Yes we need to ask her all of the above.

Sending in Arhconus may not the best, no... but all of us? That would go well, "So we have all been talking about you and the kingdom and such and here are some options we came up with for you." 
Maybe sending in the girls? or Justice and L'Aurel if Xath doesn't want to go, but that's a group choice/discussion.

Also, before we actually do anything IC as you, Kennon, pointed out we do need to know what options people are truly willing to see happen. Would Arhconus marry Jaine? WOuld Xath be okay with this? What is Arhconus' thought on the possible options now?  Justice? Kareth?

Do we go try and speak with AB as a group? Maybe in mass form we can get something out of him that individually we could not?  Even if does not solve the baby issue it may solve some unanswered questions of what his deal is!


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## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> but he never said I love you.



 For public record, I would like to submit, since I am *ahem* Jaine *ahem* that while he did not say, "I love you," there was an exchange of: 

"But can you...do you love me?" she asked.

"I...there are so many things..." he started to respond, then stopped, instead drawing her closer as she shivered in the dark.  

"Am I so unworthy of love to have lost even you, Archonus?"

"No, my Que...Jaine," he answered.

And then they kissed, and it faded to black, and the rest is history. 



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> What's done is done for better or in the case for far worse. It sucks all around, and we can argue over who it sucks more for, but again that still won't solve the issue. It effects far more then three people or even just the circle- it effects the new kingdom.
> Many things have and did go wrong, but the point is to now to fix it as best as possible.



 This is exactly right.  The future is all you can change, now.


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## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Additionally, everyone assumes that Jaine prefers her role as queen to the role of mother...  Maybe she will simply choose to step down and choose her child over the throne.
> 
> If it were me in her shoes, that would be my choice.



 That's possible.  It might be a good idea to get a plan B going for who's going to take the throne if that happens.


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## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Oh, I think I can make a pretty good arguement for this being stupidity, albiet on both their parts. Jaine is not the pure innocent here; sure Archon was a complete jerk afterwards, but this situation is partially her fault and she can't escape that. Archonus told her he loved her, which may or may not have been true at the time. So what? Someone says that, and so you throw caution to the wind and decide to jeopardize everything you've been working for for the past 6 years for one night of fun? That is stupid; no ifs ands or buts about it.



Do remember that she hasn't been fighting for this for the past seven years - she was thrust into it by circumstance, marooned alone after Tain had her father assassinated.  After that, she was forced to run for no better reason than her blood, putting up resistence where she could, but mostly just running.  She didn't have a lot of choice in the matter - it's either be queen, or be dead.  





			
				Xath said:
			
		

> Uh...I believe the inital situation had mutual consent, if a bit reluctant on one side. I'm not saying she _has_ to give up the baby. I'm saying she has to do something.



Give her the option, and find out what she thinks.  Its a good policy, and it leaves the decision in the hands of the Queen, as opposed to only her advisors.  



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> "I just want to be a _woman_ for once" or something like that.



It was something like that, yes.


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## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Sending in Arhconus may not the best, no... but all of us? That would go well, "So we have all been talking about you and the kingdom and such and here are some options we came up with for you."
> Maybe sending in the girls? or Justice and L'Aurel if Xath doesn't want to go, but that's a group choice/discussion.



 When I said all of you, I meant the girls.  Jansten wouldn't make any sense, Archon keeps screwing it up, and Kaereth would just be his normal shiny happy self.   



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> Do we go try and speak with AB as a group? Maybe in mass form we can get something out of him that individually we could not? Even if does not solve the baby issue it may solve some unanswered questions of what his deal is!



That's good.  Alternatively (or additionally), you may have to ask _*someone else*_ who knows.  AB isn't much of a talker.  He's better at speeches than AA, but he's also even more cryptic.  The only way to get the whole story may be to ask ol' Blue, or one of his more powerful minions.  

Furthermore, you could always ask Cawys, who might have some insight into deals/oaths with the Bluestar.


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## Laurel (Oct 27, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> When I said all of you, I meant the girls. Jansten wouldn't make any sense, Archon keeps screwing it up, and Kaereth would just be his normal shiny happy self.
> 
> That's good. Alternatively (or additionally), you may have to ask _*someone else*_ who knows. AB isn't much of a talker. He's better at speeches than AA, but he's also even more cryptic. The only way to get the whole story may be to ask ol' Blue, or one of his more powerful minions.
> 
> Furthermore, you could always ask Cawys, who might have some insight into deals/oaths with the Bluestar.



So let's go chat with granny blue  oh, wait first we have to know about her... as more then just a legend, but as someone still alive and doing fine with hubby bluestar.
Cawys... why not let's go! 
Ol' blue is kind of a last resort as we don't want to have to explain the why's involved....
Let's commune with the heavens about it!


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## Xath (Oct 27, 2004)

I *heart* Cawys convos!


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## The_Universe (Oct 27, 2004)

Cawys and Communing are both good ideas....but you're going to have to speak with Ol' Blue before too long, regardless.  You do have to finalize whatever arrangements you're going to make with AB, at some point....


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## Archon (Oct 27, 2004)

*Wwad*

Archonus will marry Jaine if she can be talked into it. Forget AB, if he wanted to trully help he would have by now. Jaine will just have to suck it up and marry the man she hates.
We need to go to Caer Albion as soon as possible and try and defend it for as long as possible. we should not work with the Bluestar at all. 
Also, Archonus is going north to recruit mercenaries (it shouldn't take too long).
and just remember, when in doubt blame Archonus. He makes an easy, willing target.
quick answers to long questions.
mik


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 27, 2004)

I know that we are not *making* Jaine do anything.  And, in the end, whatever she does is her decision...

But, regardless, she is going to fess up to her mistakes and take the brunt of the negativity caused by the single night of fun.  Archonus, on the other hand, is simply brushing his hands and walking away... with his new girlfriend.

Something doesn't seem fair.  But, alas, that is life.


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## Xath (Oct 28, 2004)

Out of curiosity, couldn't you transfer the pregnancy out of Jaine, heal her, and then transfer it back?


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## The_Universe (Oct 28, 2004)

Assuming that everything went well, yes.  Just remember that every time the baby moves, there's a chance of it dying.


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## Laurel (Oct 28, 2004)

*Hehe Another good one Gertie*

The spell if I read it correctly is instantaneous, so it would mean it has to be 'housed' for a while in another body still while hers gets healed (with magic should take just a little bit)

Remember also even if Jaine is healed and has the baby we just have a healthy pregnant, unmarried Queen.  Though for any case where she keeps the kid it's not a bad idea, since it lessens the risk to her --though as stated before with all the transfers and the actual birth to go through the baby has more chances of problems--

But definitely something worth bringing up.


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## The_Universe (Oct 28, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> The spell if I read it correctly is instantaneous, so it would mean it has to be 'housed' for a while in another body still while hers gets healed (with magic should take just a little bit)
> 
> Remember also even if Jaine is healed and has the baby we just have a healthy pregnant, unmarried Queen.  Though for any case where she keeps the kid it's not a bad idea, since it lessens the risk to her --though as stated before with all the transfers and the actual birth to go through the baby has more chances of problems--
> 
> But definitely something worth bringing up.



 That's right - you can't just keep it in the "transport buffer."  It's got to go inside someone else, and then come back out again.  All in all, its dangerous to everyone, since failure could result in death for the child and some serious Con damage to the mom.


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## The_Universe (Oct 28, 2004)

_stupid accidental post_​


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## Xath (Oct 28, 2004)

Con damage can be healed with Lesser Restoration.  Fortitude saves can be buffed with spells/items.

It's risky to the child, but then, having her unable to push in labor is also risky to the child.  If she's healthy, she won't need as many doctors/nurses around her, making it much easier to hide the pregnancy.


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## The_Universe (Oct 28, 2004)

Might it be that the fact that she hasn't been healed already hint fairly obviously at her condition...?


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## Xath (Oct 28, 2004)

To anyone who is particularly knowledgable about how divine spells like that work.  But how common is such knowledge?


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## Laurel (Oct 28, 2004)

*Is there any way to guage this?*

Who do we know know's already:
Jaine
The Circle + Farathier
Preston

Cawys? Dorn? Healers?  How many already have a suspicion?


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## The_Universe (Oct 28, 2004)

All of Jaine's closest advisors know, out of necessity.  Preston, Dorn, Randall, Duke Greyclaw, Arin Inelliron, You guys, Frarathir.  

Cawys can probably guess, as can most of Jaine's maids and servants.  Any one of the 93 white mages that's thought about it can probably guess, as can some of the non-talented clerics out there.  

If any of those 93 have family that wouldn't know in the first place, then they also suspect, at least.  So, you're looking at an ever-increasing rumor mill starting with about 150-200 people, and growing from there.  

Nobody's deserted as of yet, though, so your people probably don't care all that much, apart from feeling sympathetic.  

There's also a couple of palace guards who know the father is, but that's not as common knowledge as the fact that she's a little bit preggers.


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## Xath (Oct 28, 2004)

The boards...is there some sort of quiet rule today?


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## Laurel (Oct 28, 2004)

*There's an update to the main story hour.....*

SHHHHhhhhhh! I'm reading!


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## Laurel (Oct 28, 2004)

*I know I'm forgetting something.....*

Well, we are at the point where:
The girls need to go to Jaine. (Is this happening pre-day whatever the last battle was?)
The group needs to go to AB (to find out about oath and to get him to head to island) and if not successful through him then on to ol' blue (about the oath).
Archonus needs to run off to the North alone to get mercenaries, and let us know how it was
Rally troop in Hywrl/NewOceanus just in case needed on either front.
Get to Caer Albion -kill some things, maybe save somethings, maybe get a blade or two-


Still to do:
Something more then just teleport to Caer Albion, so Communing & speak with dead.... questions?


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## The_Universe (Oct 28, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Well, we are at the point where:
> The girls need to go to Jaine. (Is this happening pre-day whatever the last battle was?)
> The group needs to go to AB (to find out about oath and to get him to head to island) and if not successful through him then on to ol' blue (about the oath).
> Archonus needs to run off to the North alone to get mercenaries, and let us know how it was
> ...



 Girls do need to talk to Jaine, and the group needs to talk to AB about a couple of things.  Do we want to take care of that in-session, or electronically?  If you're leery of going all the way to the Bluestar, Cawys may be another source of information on the subject in general, if not the oath in particular.

I'm waiting for a unified set of speak with dead and commune questions.


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## Xath (Oct 28, 2004)

Some Commune question ideas (not final)

Commune grants 1 question/level, so I'm assuming we will have 15 questions.

In no particular order...

1. Is the unborn child of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr a boy?
2. Will the unborn child of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr bear the mark of the Bluestar?
3. Will killing Archonus Bluestar and bringing him back to life free him from his oath to the Bluestar?
4. Is Ahrianna Blackadder in Oceanus?
5. Is Ahrianna Blackadder on the Isle of Mourning?
6. Are the ___ and the ___ spirit blades still on the Isle of Mourning? (can't remember which ones)
7. Are the ___ and the ___ spirit blades still in Caer Albion?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 28, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Some Commune question ideas (not final)
> 
> Commune grants 1 question/level, so I'm assuming we will have 15 questions.
> 
> ...




Yes-- Preston is a 15th level caster so, we have 15 questions.

The questions look great-- I have no objections... however, many of them depend on the question previously asked... so, I think we need to ask them individually and not in a big list...

Additions/corrections:

Correction to #3: we may want to ask: "Does Archonus Bluestar's oath require him to give his children into the Bluestar's service?" and, if it does, follow up with question about killing him.

Really, we may want to begin with a simple, "Does the marriage of Archonus Bluestar and Jaine place Jaines unborn child in danger?"

Also ask: "Is Jaine's life in inevitalbe danger if she delivers the child herself?"


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## The_Universe (Oct 28, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Some suggestions:
> Who is charge? Who was in chrage when you left Caer Albion?
> What talons remain?
> What is the central point of the city?
> ...



 Here are Kat's suggestions.  Duplicates?  

Also, how many questions is speak with dead?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 28, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Some Commune question ideas




When we're doing this, it is important to go from broad to more specific questions.  We can't make any assumptions... if there is something that we aren't sure of, we need to ask in order to be sure before moving on to the very specific stuff.  So, for this particular session, I would suggest sticking with one topic-- Jaine's pregnancy-- and only resorting to the other questions (ie, the blades) if we have gotten all we want and have some questions left. 

Additionally, the spell itself only lasts 1 min/level and it costs Preston 100xp every time it is cast...


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 28, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Also, how many questions is speak with dead?




If Justice casts it, we have 4 questions... (1 question/2 levels).


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 28, 2004)

Has all non-military left the city?
Where any able to get out?
Had the wall been breached?
Was there deciet from within the city?
Did they attack from direction only?
Do you hold the secret of Mordred's tomb?
Does Caer Albion hold knowledge of Mordred or his tomb?

Most of these questions (posed by Kat) are questions that can be answered through scrying... The last one obviously can't... but-- Speak with Dead in combination with a trip to Caer Albion to speak with their leadership can probably fill us in on that particular subject (as well as most of the other questions).

The military hasn't left the city.  

We know that they have the means to get out if they absolutely need to... but, they don't want to.

We know that the wall has not been breeched-- it is a very different situation than Oceanus.  They have walls made of big strong metal and forces to fend off the attacks... they can't do it forever.  But, for now, we can assume we have at least a day-probably more-before the situation becomes so dire that the walls are going to be breeched.


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## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

To Universe:
Can we say that the pregnacy questions/scrying/convo. is before the current battle?  I don't think any of us woudl say time out we need to do this first... it was kind of an on-going thing that during game time was unsure if had been resolved or if AA/Mik was just going to take care of it later.....

If these two events are happening in the now-now then we have 15 questions to get as much about AB/Island/Caer Albion.  Those are the priorities.  Jaine's pregancy even if we found answers can nto be delt with in the day 15 (?) time frame.


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## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

On scrying- I thought is was on a person, since we had messed up with Oceanus Universe declared we could for that one spot, but that from that time forward it had to be person directed.... reason we couldn't scry on Caer Mylen (Sp?), Arutha's Forge, One Oak and other such places.

When we did the Stealing boat mission, we had to have them scry AA for the okay signal.
When we went to find Jaine in the woods we scry'd on the messenger as he left.

SO in essence unless we have someone there we can scry on to my understanding we can't scry on Caer Albion in mass.


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## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Has all non-military left the city?
> Where any able to get out?
> Had the wall been breached?
> Was there deciet from within the city?
> ...



My questions were combo. scry and speak with dead as I didn't know what or how much we could get/ask from either option. They were ment as a starting point not an end point.

And for the record I know the military hasn't abandoned the city, but we do know some mages left to find us (Well AA does), and there were masses of non-mage and non-talons there in the city. We had to deal with lots of innocent rescue attemps spur as surprises becuase so many were not able to escape Oceanus. 
Also, the getting out question again not in final form just a possibility of somethign we may want to know, but was in referrence to the non-military mage people. The mages might have known they needed as much magic as possible to fight off the army and thus just told people to run. Or they could have wasted some valuable teleports and gotten a huge chunk out quickly.... somethings we don't know, and if we want a good idea before going in should think about asking.

The mordred questions, we may find out once there, but if that's part of the secret that keeps them there the more we know the better. At this point I think we should just be making up a complete list of questions and unanswered and assumtions- Then rank them. Before we limit or start knocking things off we should complie a complete list... basically.



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> We know that the wall has not been breeched-- it is a very different situation than Oceanus. They have walls made of big strong metal and forces to fend off the attacks... they can't do it forever. But, for now, we can assume we have at least a day-probably more-before the situation becomes so dire that the walls are going to be breeched



Actually we can't know this for sure, so as you stated we can't make assumtions.  THe draconid army has dragons and t-rexs and cannons and who knows what else.  It is possible that they have not, and it is possible that they have breached the walls.  At this point we don't even know if the attack was hours ago, or minutes.  That could have been one of the last mages sent when we didn't answer the first five mages that tried to reach us hours ago.....


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Actually we can't know this for sure, so as you stated we can't make assumtions.




We can't make assumptions when asking questions when Communing.  However, it has been solidly confirmed by The Universe that, indeed, we have time before the walls of Caer Albion are breeched.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> To Universe:
> Can we say that the pregnacy questions/scrying/convo. is before the current battle?  I don't think any of us woudl say time out we need to do this first... it was kind of an on-going thing that during game time was unsure if had been resolved or if AA/Mik was just going to take care of it later.....
> 
> If these two events are happening in the now-now then we have 15 questions to get as much about AB/Island/Caer Albion.  Those are the priorities.  Jaine's pregancy even if we found answers can nto be delt with in the day 15 (?) time frame.



 I would prefer you go ahead in time, but I won't mandate it.  If you want to do this "in the past" I'll let you.  If necessary, you might have to take a couple of extra hours in Oceanus on AD+16 or something to get all of your questions answered.  As Liz said, the walls aren't going to fall, instantly.  But, as always, the sooner you get there, the less bad things will be.  


I'm just encouraging people to go forward in time so that we don't have 16 days of furious activity, and then NOTHING, later.  You guys really pack it in on various days, and we need to have time for off-camera things to happen in a way that makes sense.  So, up to you.  I promise that the 15 minutes it takes to cast _commune_ won't be the difference between the walls of Caer Albion being up or down.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> On scrying- I thought is was on a person, since we had messed up with Oceanus Universe declared we could for that one spot, but that from that time forward it had to be person directed.... reason we couldn't scry on Caer Mylen (Sp?), Arutha's Forge, One Oak and other such places.
> 
> When we did the Stealing boat mission, we had to have them scry AA for the okay signal.
> When we went to find Jaine in the woods we scry'd on the messenger as he left.
> ...



 Right - you have to scry on a person. Know anybody who'd be up there? I bet AA does! He trained there for five years!


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> We can't make assumptions when asking questions when Communing. However, it has been solidly confirmed by The Universe that, indeed, we have time before the walls of Caer Albion are breeched.



Sorry the Universe's confirmation was not universal... so it was still a concern I had and thought was valid to be worried about.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Also, the getting out question again not in final form just a possibility of somethign we may want to know, but was in referrence to the non-military mage people. The mages might have known they needed as much magic as possible to fight off the army and thus just told people to run. Or they could have wasted some valuable teleports and gotten a huge chunk out quickly.... somethings we don't know, and if we want a good idea before going in should think about asking.



Those are all good ideas, and brainstormign should have as expansive a list, as possible.  Remember (all of you) that these questions are as much for speak with dead as they are for Commune, so what you don't want to waste a commune question on, you could ask the corpse.



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> The mordred questions, we may find out once there, but if that's part of the secret that keeps them there the more we know the better. At this point I think we should just be making up a complete list of questions and unanswered and assumtions- Then rank them. Before we limit or start knocking things off we should complie a complete list... basically.



Agreed.



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> Actually we can't know this for sure, so as you stated we can't make assumtions. THe draconid army has dragons and t-rexs and cannons and who knows what else. It is possible that they have not, and it is possible that they have breached the walls. At this point we don't even know if the attack was hours ago, or minutes. That could have been one of the last mages sent when we didn't answer the first five mages that tried to reach us hours ago.....



You don't know anything, but you do have a metagame assurance that the walls aren't in the process of falling, now.  Since you're all capable warriors, you can guess that a well-fortified city could hold out against the draconids for days.  You all held them off in New Oceanus and Hyrwl for almost 24 hours, and all you had was dirt and wood walls - so, speed _is _of the essence, but you should have enough time to organize, a bit.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Sorry the Universe's confirmation was not universal... so it was still a concern I had and thought was valid to be worried about.



 My bad. Ultimately, its irrelevent when you scry/commune/whatever.  However, you can't really seek information on Caer Albion until after the mage shows up, and dies, after relaying his short message.  Somebody remind me - AD+16 or +18?  I forget.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

On a totally different note: When are we planning on playing again? Under the assumption that this weekend is toast, I have planned nothing.  I figure we could play _next_ saturday, maybe around 7?

...or is there something else I have to do....? 

Seriously though - Kat, when are you guys back in town and ready to play, so we can get that weekend set in stone, ASAP...?


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> My bad. Ultimately, its irrelevent when you scry/commune/whatever. However, you can't really seek information on Caer Albion until after the mage shows up, and dies, after relaying his short message. Somebody remind me - AD+16 or +18? I forget.



I have the timetable from Saturday as:
AD+0-Arfin dies by assassin's
AD +1-meeting morning w/Jaine, Jansten, AB--afternoon candle being made
AD +2-Talk with mages (4 stay)
AD +3-Justice gets engauged
AD +4
AD +5
AD+6
AD+7
AD+8
AD+9
AD+10-Justice and Duke Wedding
AD+11
AD+12
AD+13-Trip to One Oak
AD+14
AD+15-Temple Finished/Arfin's Funeral
AD+16-Ship's from Oceanus to Isle of Mourning/Night attack from Caer Albion


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> On a totally different note: When are we planning on playing again? Under the assumption that this weekend is toast, I have planned nothing. I figure we could play _next_ saturday, maybe around 7?
> 
> ...or is there something else I have to do....?
> 
> Seriously though - Kat, when are you guys back in town and ready to play, so we can get that weekend set in stone, ASAP...?



I wanna play tomorrow- 6pm.  Come on you don't need more then a few hours to prepare!   
And next week sounds even better... start at 1pm go till midnight.  WE can eat at applebee's... oh wait two players are getting married and the rest are supposedly showing up  

Okay future weekends for Kat and Greg:
Oct. 30/31- out
Nov. 6/7- out (Wedding)
Nov. 13/14- out (Just getting back into town Sunday)
Nov. 20/21- open? so far as I can tell it's open and we are in town


----------



## Xath (Oct 29, 2004)

Commune only lasts 1 round per level, and you can ask 1 question per round.  It's a very fast paced spell.  You don't get a specific amount of questions, you get a time.  So we can't pause to flip through the questions while the spell is being cast.  

So instead of a list, why don't we make a tree?  Prioritize the questions and then lay them out so that if question one is yes, we ask such and such question; if it's no, we ask other such and such question.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Commune only lasts 1 round per level, and you can ask 1 question per round.  It's a very fast paced spell.  You don't get a specific amount of questions, you get a time.  So we can't pause to flip through the questions while the spell is being cast.
> 
> So instead of a list, why don't we make a tree?  Prioritize the questions and then lay them out so that if question one is yes, we ask such and such question; if it's no, we ask other such and such question.



 That is exactly what I was getting at by the whole we need to focus thing.

Questions trees are the way to go.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Commune only lasts 1 round per level, and you can ask 1 question per round.  It's a very fast paced spell.  You don't get a specific amount of questions, you get a time.




It is both time _and_ question based: you have 1 round/level to ask the questions and 1 question/caster level.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

*Commune, from the SRD*

Commune
Divination

Level: Clr 5

Components: V, S, M, DF, XP

Casting Time: 10 minutes

Range: Personal

Target: You

Duration: 1 round/level

You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. (A cleric of no particular deity contacts a philosophically allied deity.) You are allowed one such question per caster level. The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. “Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity’s interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.

The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes. If you lag, discuss the answers, or go off to do anything else, the spell ends.

Material Component: Holy (or unholy) water and incense.

XP Cost: 100 XP.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Commune only lasts 1 round per level, and you can ask 1 question per round.  It's a very fast paced spell.  You don't get a specific amount of questions, you get a time.  So we can't pause to flip through the questions while the spell is being cast.
> 
> So instead of a list, why don't we make a tree?  Prioritize the questions and then lay them out so that if question one is yes, we ask such and such question; if it's no, we ask other such and such question.



 Question trees are awesome.  But, I would encourage you to ask these questions electronically so as to allow the DM to be properly cryptic with his five word answers.  As soon as you have the first question decided upon, let me know.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> I wanna play tomorrow- 6pm. Come on you don't need more then a few hours to prepare!
> And next week sounds even better... start at 1pm go till midnight. WE can eat at applebee's... oh wait two players are getting married and the rest are supposedly showing up
> 
> Okay future weekends for Kat and Greg:
> ...



You're not serious, are you (about tonight)?


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> You're not serious, are you (about tonight)?



No it was a joke... 

So my computer at work hates the menu bar (w/ smiles, bold, script, etc.) GRRRR!


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

*Tree very good idea Gertie!*

So the three main branches:
Jaine's Pregnancy

Caer Albion

Island of Mourning

At day AD+16 we should concentrate on the last two branches, but it doesn't hurt to start thinking of ones for Jaine's Pregnancy if they pop into our heads.


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Girls do need to talk to Jaine, and the group needs to talk to AB about a couple of things. Do we want to take care of that in-session, or electronically? If you're leery of going all the way to the Bluestar, Cawys may be another source of information on the subject in general, if not the oath in particular.
> 
> I'm waiting for a unified set of speak with dead and commune questions.



For the girls trying to talk with Jaine-- I would guess this could be done electronically.  But Liz? Gertie?
I am taking next Monday off from life, so will have access to MSN during the day... not sure about work schedules or classes or what not though, since that seems to be the preferred way at times and for group chats.
E-mail always works for me though 

Group things unless someone (not me) gets a definite no or I don't care we have to wait for Jansten/Greg... unless Jansten just isn't a part of it....


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> For the girls trying to talk with Jaine-- I would guess this could be done electronically.  But Liz? Gertie?
> I am taking next Monday off from life, so will have access to MSN during the day... not sure about work schedules or classes or what not though, since that seems to be the preferred way at times and for group chats.
> E-mail always works for me though
> 
> Group things unless someone (not me) gets a definite no or I don't care we have to wait for Jansten/Greg... unless Jansten just isn't a part of it....



 So far as doing things electronically... Mondays and Thursday don't work unless they are after 6.00pm.  I am in class literally all day... so, if that's the means we prefer, has to be after I get home.  That also kind of rules out email for me...

So, if we're going to do it electronically, we should probably try to do it over email on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Friday.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Question trees are awesome.  But, I would encourage you to ask these questions electronically so as to allow the DM to be properly cryptic with his five word answers.  As soon as you have the first question decided upon, let me know.



 Keep in mind that if the deity has the knowledge to provide a yes or no answer, they do... unless the yes or no answer would be contrary to the deity's interest... and, at that point, the deity gives the cryptic 5 word answers.

From the SRD:

The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. “Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity’s interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> So far as doing things electronically... Mondays and Thursday don't work unless they are after 6.00pm. I am in class literally all day... so, if that's the means we prefer, has to be after I get home. That also kind of rules out email for me...
> 
> So, if we're going to do it electronically, we should probably try to do it over email on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Friday.



Actually can we shoot for evening on Monday... Gertie, Kennon?
Tuesday I start to have family in town, so I will have no idea if or when I could have access to anything but my cell till November 15th.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Actually can we shoot for evening on Monday... Gertie, Kennon?
> Tuesday I start to have family in town, so I will have no idea if or when I could have access to anything but my cell till November 15th.



 I'm flexible.  I don't anticipate it taking very long, so whenever is fine with me.  If you want to go with more static questions, you can just do it here at any time, and then pay to cast it again for follow up questions. But, if you do it that way, you need to come up with a static list.  Apart from that, I can set aside an hour or whatever on monday night.


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

Very, Very basic: not in any particular order, but for the if n(if no) or if y(if yes).... just put in what I think we had already posted as possible questions. Three headings, but that doesn't mean all have to be explored nor should on this go around. If we have left over questions though rather then wasting anything might as well have other options lined up, and get a handle on what else we are trying to figure out.

*Caer Albion*-How large is the draconid army around and in Caer Albion?
_-_Who is in charge of Caer Albion now?
-Was there deceit from within the city?
--if y-Do the traitors still pretend to be on our side?
-What secrets hold them there?
--Does Caer Albion hold the secret of Tiamat?
--Does Caer Albion hold knowledge of Mordred or his tomb?
-Does the draconid army seek any spirit blades in Caer Albion?
-Are Dark Senders Blade and Drake’s Blade spirit blades still in Caer Albion?
--if y-Is Dark Senders Blade still in the armoury?
--if y-Is Drake’s Blade still with Mordred’s scull in Caer Albion? 
--if n-Who holds Drake’s Blade now?
--if n-Who holds Dark Sender’s Blade now?
-Is Ahrianna Blackadder in Oceanus?
--if n-Is Ahrianna Blackadder in Caer Albion?
--if n-Is Ahrianna Blackadder on or around the Isle of Mourning?
*What is the central point of the city? (AA should know layout of city)
*Has the wall been breached? (Universe says we don’t have to worry about this one)

*Jaine’s Pregnancy*
-Is the unborn child of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr a boy?
-Will the unborn child of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr bear the mark of the Bluestar?

*Island of Mourning*
-Are Forest Blade and Saints Blade spirit blades still on the Isle of Mourning?
--If y-Is forest blade still at the Amastatia’s tomb?
--If y-Is Saint’s blade still at the Apecto’s tomb?
--If n-Who holds Forest Blade now?
--If n-Who holds Saint’s Blade now?
-Is there any knowledge on the island that would bring down Tain? 

*Archonus Bluestar & Oath*
-Will killing Archonus Bluestar and bringing him back to life free him from his oath to the Bluestar?
-Would he willingly give up his oath?
-Does he give his allegiance first to the circle and Jaine or to the Bluestar?


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

Jaine's Pregnancy Questions:

We need to start more broad...

Is Jaine in immediate danger if she chooses to deliver the child herself?

And, the AB/AA questions are, I think, part of the same tree of questioning.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

Am I correct in assuming that we will be doing the Commune revolving around Jaine and the kingdom at a previous time?

Do we want to have another Commune session after we hear from the Red Mage? If so, will Preston be willing?


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

I think a lot of the questions out there could be determined by scrying - can someone post the scry description from the srd?  I'm curious if we can think of a more efficient way to do some of this...


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

Asked about when in time for Jaine questions and here is the answer I got:


			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> I would prefer you go ahead in time, but I won't mandate it. If you want to do this "in the past" I'll let you. If necessary, you might have to take a couple of extra hours in Oceanus on AD+16 or something to get all of your questions answered. As Liz said, the walls aren't going to fall, instantly. But, as always, the sooner you get there, the less bad things will be.
> 
> 
> I'm just encouraging people to go forward in time so that we don't have 16 days of furious activity, and then NOTHING, later. You guys really pack it in on various days, and we need to have time for off-camera things to happen in a way that makes sense. So, up to you. I promise that the 15 minutes it takes to cast _commune_ won't be the difference between the walls of Caer Albion being up or down.


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

On Scrying and Greater Scrying:  Could Dorn do one not sure what he has druid wise.  If there are just a few short questions dealing with Jaine can Justice do those?


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Scrying......._Divination (Scrying)_
> *Level*: Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4
> *Components*: V, S, M/DF, F
> *Casting Time*: 1 hour
> ...


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Asked about when in time for Jaine questions and here is the answer I got:



 Right - do it whenever. It doesn't really matter all that much.  You guys pick.   Just let me know.  Sorry I wasn't clear before - I'd prefer Day 16 or whatever, but I really don't care.


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> If Justice casts it, we have 4 questions... (1 question/2 levels).



Is this from Justice's PrC?  She casts cleric spells?


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Is this from Justice's PrC?  She casts cleric spells?



 Justice is a 8th level cleric... Indeed, she casts cleric spells.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Right - do it whenever. It doesn't really matter all that much.  You guys pick.   Just let me know.  Sorry I wasn't clear before - I'd prefer Day 16 or whatever, but I really don't care.



 The day can be determined when we actually do the Communing on Monday, I think.  But, whatever day is fine with me.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Justice is a 8th level cleric... Indeed, she casts cleric spells.



I took a couple levels of straight Cleric and my PrC is based on the Radiant Servant of Pelor (the PrC The Apecto took)... my spell casting abilities and turning abilities advance as a Cleric, but with emphasis on special abilities that make me able to turn extremely well.


----------



## Xath (Oct 29, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Jaine's Pregnancy Questions:
> 
> We need to start more broad...
> 
> ...




Why ask questions we already know the answer to.  Of course she'll be in danger; for one every woman who delivers a child is in danger and this is compounded by the fact that she can't push. 

Will Jaine or her unborn child die if she attempts the delivery in her current paralyzed condition?


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

8th level.... so on top of the lay on hands Justice needs to get with the healin' spells  She has access to everything from minor to critical curing


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Why ask questions we already know the answer to.  Of course she'll be in danger; for one every woman who delivers a child is in danger and this is compounded by the fact that she can't push.
> 
> Will Jaine or her unborn child die if she attempts the delivery in her current paralyzed condition?



 Exactly what I was getting at-- just starting very broad... and then moving down to the "will they die" questions.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> 8th level.... so on top of the lay on hands Justice needs to get with the healin' spells  She has access to everything from minor to critical curing



 She has access, yes.  And, she uses them if the wand isn't good enough...  But, not really her *thing*  They are handy when in a pinch and no one can get to their wands but, Justice is more the undead fighting machine than the healing cleric...


----------



## Laurel (Oct 29, 2004)

There were lots of days or nothingness for the past two weeks in game. So monday we can just assign a day, shouldn't really matter anyways. 

So far for the Jaine tree of questions I have:
*Jaine’s Pregnancy*
*1)*Is Jaine in _immediate_ danger if she chooses to carry the child to term?
--if n-Will Jaine or the child die if she is still paralyzed during labor?
--if y-Will Jaine’s current unborn child’s birth go without problems should she be in perfect health?
*2)*Is the unborn child of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr a boy?
*3)*Will the unborn child of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr bear the mark of the Bluestar?
--If y-Will the mark hold special magical power?
--If n- continue with other questions
*4)*Would he willingly give up his oath?
--If n- Will killing Archonus Bluestar and bringing him back to life free him from his oath to the Bluestar?
--If y- he would have already done it, new tactic
*5)*Does he give his allegiance first to the circle and Jaine or to the Bluestar?
*6)*Would Archonus Bluestar give the child of Arhconus Arrendor and Jaine Rhynn to the Bluestar’s service?


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 29, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> On Scrying and Greater Scrying:  Could Dorn do one not sure what he has druid wise.  If there are just a few short questions dealing with Jaine can Justice do those?



 Yeah- nevermind. Scry doesn't see far enough. Only 10 feet around the person, right?  Any other divinations that do something similar? Remote viewing? Something...?


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 29, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Yeah- nevermind. Scry doesn't see far enough. Only 10 feet around the person, right?  Any other divinations that do something similar? Remote viewing? Something...?



 Though that is kind of sucky news for our current situation... it is good news for the group as a whole... it means that maybe the bad guys can't see as much as I assumed they can.


----------



## The_Universe (Oct 30, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Though that is kind of sucky news for our current situation... it is good news for the group as a whole... it means that maybe the bad guys can't see as much as I assumed they can.



 Yes - both good and bad.  At least it's not all bad, though.  

So, do I have a set of questions I can start answering? Any set I should start with?


----------



## Laurel (Oct 31, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Though that is kind of sucky news for our current situation... it is good news for the group as a whole... it means that maybe the bad guys can't see as much as I assumed they can.



We also haven't been asked to make random rolls  
And Currently most info the bluestar can just ask about (Cawys, AB, who know who else).  We may not be telling them everything, but they are in the know.
It may be harder for Tain's side, but we have seen his net work of spies.....


----------



## Laurel (Oct 31, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> So, do I have a set of questions I can start answering? Any set I should start with?



Since hopefully the questions would be asked prior to us going to Jaine, maybe get those set and answered by Monday.... but I don't think they are finished yet... some we may not want to bother with others?

What does everyone else think?


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 1, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Since hopefully the questions would be asked prior to us going to Jaine, maybe get those set and answered by Monday.... but I don't think they are finished yet... some we may not want to bother with others?
> 
> What does everyone else think?



 All questions shall wait for tomorrow, when all three of the "communists" will be online. After it's done, the info can be posted here.


----------



## Xath (Nov 1, 2004)

I won't really be around today after 11, until 5ish.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 1, 2004)

Now, is there anything else we need to talk about? Any plans that can be made pre-communing?


----------



## Archon (Nov 1, 2004)

*soldier's of fortune*

There is Archon's trip north to recruit mercanaries for our cause....


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## The_Universe (Nov 1, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> There is Archon's trip north to recruit mercanaries for our cause....



OK - when is he going to do that? Has he talked to the rest of the group about it? I'm not averse to running that little jaunt during the larger down time (especially since or next session of KoA appears to be somewhere around Nov. 21) but I don't want to have Archonus stepping out of line with the rest of the circle. 

The preliminaries might be something he can take care of here or on the IC thread (or over messenger or e-mail). If he gets the go ahead to pursue his plan with a less-than-whole group, we might be able to take care of it as a side-session.


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## Archon (Nov 1, 2004)

*those against....*

does anyone have any problems with Archon going north to raise an army? i don't even care if i get xp for it, it's just something that needs to get done.
mik


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 1, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> does anyone have any problems with Archon going north to raise an army? i don't even care if i get xp for it, it's just something that needs to get done.
> mik



 He needs to talk to all of us about it.  Moreover, Justice would not want him going alone.  If he is going to "raise an army" he needs a diplomat there with him... if only to help negotiate the price.

I think we can all agree it is something that needs to be done.  However, I wonder if it is Archon, specifically, that needs to do it.


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## The_Universe (Nov 1, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> He needs to talk to all of us about it. Moreover, Justice would not want him going alone. If he is going to "raise an army" he needs a diplomat there with him... if only to help negotiate the price.
> 
> I think we can all agree it is something that needs to be done. However, I wonder if it is Archon, specifically, that needs to do it.



I recommend the small team approach. Archon should go - it's his idea and his money. But a moderating influence of some sort may be helpful, as would someone who has more weapons in their diplomatic arsenal than "threaten to kill them or their loved ones."


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## AIM-54 (Nov 1, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> does anyone have any problems with Archon going north to raise an army? i don't even care if i get xp for it, it's just something that needs to get done.
> mik




Knowing Archon and his leap before his mind registers the idea of looking or otherwise thinking before choosing a course of action, hell yes I have a problem with Archon "going north to raise an army".

What is Archon's plan?  Who is he going to get in touch with?  What kinds of forces is he looking for and planning to hire?  What if they're not available?  Does he have backup plans?  What if it costs more than his initial estimate?  There's all kinds of things that need to be thought about here before we undertake this particular task.  I understand the value of it;  more troops are always a good thing, but let's do this properly.  This is a business deal, as I understand it (hiring mercs) and Archon is not someone I'd put in charge of important business negotiations.

Finally, I point to my sig, which should be a guide for this action (at the very least!):  A goal is not a plan.  

You've got a goal, tell me the plan.


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## Xath (Nov 1, 2004)

Xath would be willing to go with him as a "diplomat."  But I too, would like to know what you have planned for this excursion.  Ditto Jeremiah's questions.


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## Archon (Nov 1, 2004)

*Army of One (Archon)*



			
				AIM-54 said:
			
		

> Knowing Archon and his leap before his mind registers the idea of looking or otherwise thinking before choosing a course of action, hell yes I have a problem with Archon "going north to raise an army".
> 
> What is Archon's plan?  Who is he going to get in touch with?  What kinds of forces is he looking for and planning to hire?  What if they're not available?  Does he have backup plans?  What if it costs more than his initial estimate?  There's all kinds of things that need to be thought about here before we undertake this particular task.  I understand the value of it;  more troops are always a good thing, but let's do this properly.  This is a business deal, as I understand it (hiring mercs) and Archon is not someone I'd put in charge of important business negotiations.
> 
> ...




a goal is not a plan you're right JC. And while Archon is basically just saying, "I'm heading north to raise an army," mik has thought about it a bit more.
my plan is to have Archon & Co check out the merc camps after first gathering Intel on each camp; their specialties, their rivals, their past exploits, their ruthlessness, their traditions, etc. 
Archon is looking for the strongest, bravest most ruthless warriors. Experience is a must as well as good gear. so mostly experienced hvy Foot soldiers/calvary. but he is also looking for light infantry as fodder/wall sentries.
all in all, Archon is looking for strong blades that won't flee at the first sign of weakness/trouble.
mik aka "General Michols"


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## The_Universe (Nov 1, 2004)

*"Common Knowledge"*



			
				AIM-54 said:
			
		

> Who is he going to get in touch with? What kinds of forces is he looking for and planning to hire?



Since there is an inevitable gap between what you know as characters and what you know as players, allow me to provide you with what would be a good share of "common knowledge" that your characters probably know, already.  

Most of the mercenaries in the kingdom operate in and around Quarion's wall.  There have been precious few internal conflicts since the founding of the Falcon Kigndom some 900 years ago, and as a result, mercenaries have rarely been useful in large numbers in the main part of the kingdom.  Without wars for them to fight in, the business of being a mercenary does not exactly fluorish in the South.  

There are a few small companies that operate along major trade routes, and merchants have been known to hire mercenary marines to guard important cargos on the seas before the King's navy and the Shiplord Talon wiped out piracy a hundred years ago.  Thus, most mercenaries operating in the civilized world are loners, operating in groups only when hired as such. At the end of a contract, any association is more than likely ended, and the lone mercenary seeks further work elsewhere.  

If one needs a small number of mercenaries, one could more than likely form a small impromptu company (at most 100-200 men in a city of 100,000) in any number of the larger cities of the realm, probably by found in the seedy bars that "adventurers" like yourselves frequent.  That being said, any such company would not be used to working together, and would probably have widely disparate skills, equipment, and capabilites.


In the North, it's an entirely different matter.  It is here that larger mercenary companies have found their most consistent employment in the realm.  The army of the Watch is powerful, but there are a great many miles of the wall that must be patrolled, and any foray into the realm of the Bluestar himself left the walls unmanned.  Thus, mercenaries are often used to achieve the more sensitive missions of the kingdom in the Deathlands.  

Here can be found companies of all shapes, sizes, and capabilities.  There are mercenary naval units that patrol the long stretches of the deathward along the sea.  There are units of heavy cavalry, light infantry, and everything in between.  Practically the only unit not found in the North are riflemen, and other steeldrake dependent units.  The stringest laws of the kingdom prevent their use even above the walls, although it is whispered that some units to emply steeldrakes when sufficiently far from the wall.  

These larger units can be found along the wall itself, generally along either side.  The ward acts to prevent anything without a soul from passing in or out of the North, so small cities have grown up on both sides of the wall, as Mercenaries maintain their equipment and supplies for operation both above and below the walls.  Since, for example, one cannot pass with a sword and leather armor, living cattle must be driven through the great gates, and there slaughtered to become armor.  Iron must be mined, smelted, and refined in the North if it is to be used there. Hence, the cities on both sides of the wall.     

Truly wretched hives of scum and villainy, these places are a haven for every vice known to the sentient beings of the Falcon Kingdom, a place where laws are at best a mere suggestion, and the only loyalty that matters is ones loyalty to his company.  

When not fulfilling a contract, most large companies will travel further south, usually to spend their earnings while they await contracts.  Some remain along the walls in their lawless cities, while others seek temporary havens from the cold and bitter north in cities like Sylvanus, Ceridrawn, and Anakim. Few companies of any size travel further south than Talisinna, Sylvanus, or Aesirin, unless called there by business.  

As for who...by their nature, there aren't really any famous mercenary bands, at least not in the circles that you have been travelling in.  A couple of names that stick out are Gerritt Jenkins (a man reputed to lead the Band of the Red Banner) and One-eyed Tim (a man reputed to lead the Screaming Blades).  Both are reputed for their cunning and survivability.  Both have spent some time in Sylvanus, which is why the group might know of them.


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## Laurel (Nov 2, 2004)

posting communing about Jaine's pregnancy and AB's oath to IC thread


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## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

*Copy, Paste*

Jacked over from the IC thread for OOC discussion: (Thanks to Kat for the initial compilation)

1) Will Jaine or the unborn child die if she gives birth in her current paralyzed condition? "Three are.  Two shall live." 

2)Is Jaine Rhynn currently pregnant with twins? "Two grow within her womb."

3)Will one or both of the unborn children of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr be born with the mark of the Bluestar? "One marred by ancestry's curse"

4)Will Jaine Rhynn die while giving birth to the twins she now carries? "Shadow will fall over Queen"

5)Will one of the unborn children of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr die in the process of being born? "Two children shall see Light" (in common colloquialism, this would mean they'll literally see light...the light of ths sun, whatever. 

6)Are one or both of the unborn children of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr male? "Yes."

7)Are both of the unborn children of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr male? "One sister, one brother, born."

8)Will the male unborn child of Jaine Rhynn and Archonus Arendorr bear the mark of the Bluestar? "A son untouched by darkness."

9)Can Archonus Bluestar's oath to the Bluestar be removed by killing him and bringing him back to life? "Deathlord's Oath passes beyond death." 

10)Would a marriage between Archonus Bluestar and Jaine Rhynn put Jaine Rhynn's line under the influence of the Bluestar? "King's line under Northern Shadow."

11)Does Archonus Bluestar's oath to the Bluestar pass on to his children? "Yes."

12)Would Archonus Bluestar's oath to the Bluestar pass on to the twins Jaine Rhynn carries if Archonus Bluestar and Jaine Rhynn were married? "Oath is bound by blood." 

13)Are the children of Archonus Arendorr subject to Archonus Bluestar's oath to the Bluestar? "Twin's unsullied by Time's bargain." 

14)Will Jaine Rhynn die in the process of birthing the twins she now carries? "Stilled Queen shall briefly reign." 

15)If Jaine Rhynn were not paralyzed at the time of the birthing of her unborn twin children, would all three survive? "Two _must_ live, three _may_."


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## AIM-54 (Nov 2, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> a goal is not a plan you're right JC. And while Archon is basically just saying, "I'm heading north to raise an army," mik has thought about it a bit more.
> my plan is to have Archon & Co check out the merc camps after first gathering Intel on each camp; their specialties, their rivals, their past exploits, their ruthlessness, their traditions, etc.
> Archon is looking for the strongest, bravest most ruthless warriors. Experience is a must as well as good gear. so mostly experienced hvy Foot soldiers/calvary. but he is also looking for light infantry as fodder/wall sentries.
> all in all, Archon is looking for strong blades that won't flee at the first sign of weakness/trouble.
> mik aka "General Michols"




Okay, this sounds like you're going to go up and cherry pick from the mercenary companies.  This is a good plan if you're intending to get killed.  As I understand from Kennon's post, the mercs in the north operate in companies, not loners as in the south.  This means they've operated together, probably for some time, and therefore commanders are not going to appreciate you stealing away their finest/most experienced troops.  Indeed, knowing mercs, they'd kill you.  Fast.  And maybe a few who were going to go with you, just to set an example.  

If you are going to get mercs from the north, you're going to have to hire whole companies (by which I mean coherent groups, not a specific number of troops).  You are first going to need to understand their current contracts.  Mercs are first and foremost businessman.  It's bad business to simply hop out on a contract.  And they're not going to bank on your assurances that Tain is going to be defeated.  Again, that's not good business, unless you can hire them for the duration of the rebellion and pay them well.  Mercs ain't going to leave a steady, reliable paycheck for the unknown, unless it's really worth their while.  That's just the way it is.

Before we go up looking for mercs, we need to understand what this entails.  And clearly it's more than either Archon or Mik have considered.  It may be an unsuccessful venture.  We may need more funds than Mik has available.  These are the realities.  I may be way off here, I'm not totally up on how Kennon runs mercs, but I have too many games based off the mercenary paradigm not to know a thing or two about the basics.

And Mik, you're going to have to show a better grasp of these things if you want to call yourself "general" without me laughing at you hysterically.


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## Archon (Nov 2, 2004)

*Bad Press For The Masked King*

I feel that Archonus has not been getting his props.
Lately nothing but the negative has been reinforced when talking about Archon. Whenever he is mentioned, "what a jerk", "what a fool", or "what a retard" usually follow. And while it really hasn't bugged me because it's just game and he's just a character, it's starting to get to me because he's _my _ character. It just seems like everyone thinks of him as a terd whose only use is keeping him in a box until a HP sponge is needed. It just seems like things have gotten exagerated. Whenever the subject comes up, "Archon might be king", people laugh and "say my god, i hope not, he sucks." 
The fact is he might not be the best choice but he certainly is not the worst as you would make him out to be. for starters, he is good. a genuinely good person who puts other peoples needs first. second of all he's legitimate. so even if Jaine doesn't marry Archon, if she dies he becomes king anyway. Third of all, he's already a noble. Born and raised in the courts of Sylvanus, Archon knows a thing or too about ruling. He also has a formal education as well as an awesome selection of advisors he'd like to think of as close friends. Fourth of all, as a former Justice, Archon has a firm grasp of the kingdoms laws and how to go about adjucating such laws. Fifth of all Archon is hard to kill. Assassins are going to have a hell of a time trying to kill a guy who can hide just about anywhere, who can change his appearance at will, who can defend himself even with out the assistance of weapons and most importantly is almost completely resistant to magic.
What i'm trying to get at guys is that Archon has made some poor choices, yes, but he's still a good person with strengths and weaknesses. Human just like everyone else. i just feel, like Liz felt with Justice and Gertie feels with Xath, that you guys are basing your view on Archon on just a couple of events. Of course i guess it could just be poor roleplaying on my part, but i don't think so. i feel i've stayed true to the character despite certain compromises. But if it is poor roleplaying let me know.
Anyway, i'm not mad or anything, i just feel a little bent about the whole thing.
your buddy,
mik


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 2, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> I feel that Archonus has not been getting his props.
> Lately nothing but the negative has been reinforced when talking about Archon. Whenever he is mentioned, "what a jerk", "what a fool", or "what a retard" usually follow. And while it really hasn't bugged me because it's just game and he's just a character, it's starting to get to me because he's _my _ character. It just seems like everyone thinks of him as a terd whose only use is keeping him in a box until a HP sponge is needed. It just seems like things have gotten exagerated. Whenever the subject comes up, "Archon might be king", people laugh and "say my god, i hope not, he sucks."
> The fact is he might not be the best choice but he certainly is not the worst as you would make him out to be. for starters, he is good. a genuinely good person who puts other peoples needs first. second of all he's legitimate. so even if Jaine doesn't marry Archon, if she dies he becomes king anyway. Third of all, he's already a noble. Born and raised in the courts of Sylvanus, Archon knows a thing or too about ruling. He also has a formal education as well as an awesome selection of advisors he'd like to think of as close friends. Fourth of all, as a former Justice, Archon has a firm grasp of the kingdoms laws and how to go about adjucating such laws. Fifth of all Archon is hard to kill. Assassins are going to have a hell of a time trying to kill a guy who can hide just about anywhere, who can change his appearance at will, who can defend himself even with out the assistance of weapons and most importantly is almost completely resistant to magic.
> What i'm trying to get at guys is that Archon has made some poor choices, yes, but he's still a good person with strengths and weaknesses. Human just like everyone else. i just feel, like Liz felt with Justice and Gertie feels with Xath, that you guys are basing your view on Archon on just a couple of events. Of course i guess it could just be poor roleplaying on my part, but i don't think so. i feel i've stayed true to the character despite certain compromises. But if it is poor roleplaying let me know.
> ...




I know how all this feels-- all too well.

The things that you do in game that get the most attention always seem to be the things that suck.  Little attention seems to be paid to the really good things that characters do.

I know what it feels like to have your character characterized in a fashion that is contrary to the way you see them--hell, I still can't live down the evil ninja thing and that was over a year ago out of game... and, I'm doing the same thing to do that I was upset about mere weeks ago... so, I apologize.

Liz may laugh and call Archonus a jerk... but, generally, it is because we are talking about the Jaine situation... and, on that front, the title is true.
However, she completely supports him as king if indeed that is what happens.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 2, 2004)

RE: Communing...

It would seem that our queen is pregnant with twins and that she will die during birth.  This is, by no means, an absolute.  But, based on the questions we asked and the answers we recieved, it seems pretty solid.

The twins will be a boy and a girl.  The girl will carry the mark of the Bluestar.

So, the ladies will go speak with Jaine to see what she wants to do about the situation... Once again, I make an assumption: Jaine will choose to have her children live and her to die--rather than chancing the death of each of her children in the transfer birth stuff...

And so, we need to see if she would be willing to come back to life... with Xath at her side, she should be able to bring her back in mere seconds of death... or we need to find some way to magically super-boost her fort. saves to ensure she lives through the birthing process... or find a way to cure her before she has the children...

Gertie/Xath-- Bardic Knowledge to determine who would have such vast healing knowledge?  If it could be found anywhere?


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## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

*A pep talk, but also a cautionary note...*



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> I feel that Archonus has not been getting his props.
> Lately nothing but the negative has been reinforced when talking about Archon. Whenever he is mentioned, "what a jerk", "what a fool", or "what a retard" usually follow. And while it really hasn't bugged me because it's just game and he's just a character, it's starting to get to me because he's _my _character.



That's fair, and to a degree it shouldn't be happening.  So, I'll begin by saying what I, as a relatively objective participant in the game, think is great about Archonus.  

Archonus can be noble, and merciful (the wounded goblin...).  He can be scrupled, careful, and cautious (The initial invasion of Oceanus, early negotiations with the leaders).  Archonus is brave, and certainly not above self-sacrifice for what he believes is RIGHT (take the pain, "I'll go first," etc.).  Archonus is strong, tough, and capable of using his former position with the kingdom to everyone's benefit (the occaisonal use of his Talon status for diplomacy/intimidation), and has the capability of exercising restraint when he feels it proper (not killing Cawys just because you don't like him).  He has been fiercely loyal, and even when acting brashly followed a path that seemed to be perfect (swearing fealty to the Queen early on, thus far being the only one to have done so).  When presented with a shade of a lost love (Dara), he chose not to delude her, but instead helped save the lives and souls of many of the mages now in your service (Tower of the Red).  Those are the things that make Archonus a hero, and those are the things that I, Kennon, love in any character.  They are, for the most part, the things the whole group shares, but they were the specific traits that really made Archon stand out.  That, and the brooding.  

Now, just for the sake of argument, let's examine how Archon has been lately, say, since you left Oceanus the first time.  Noble? Merciful? Scrupled?  Cautious? Yes, we can give him cautious as long as we limit it to combat situations. Bravery? Can't argue that. Self Sacrifice is also a given, so long as we limit to combat. Get into his personal life, and suddenly the idea that he might not get what he wants can only be answered by murder.  Strong? Sure. Tough? Definitely. Restrained? _Barely, _and even then only sporadically. Using the Talon? Not really.  You've been treading the merry edge of breaking it for a while, now, as Archon flies off into his uncharacteristic rages.  Loyal? Sort of.  No need to go into the specifics, but Archon's been loyal in name to the circle, and to Jaine, but has enumerated several times his willingness to "break the oath(s)" thus parading disloyalty around as if it were a desirable quality.  Lastly, the shining moment of diplomacy that Archon once reached to win the Tower of the Red has been long forgotten, and never returned to.  He hasn't even put in the effort.           



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> It just seems like everyone thinks of him as a terd whose only use is keeping him in a box until a HP sponge is needed. It just seems like things have gotten exagerated. Whenever the subject comes up, "Archon might be king", people laugh and say "my god, i hope not, he sucks."



I agree that Archon shouldn't be put in a box, if you contrast the Archon I talked about when I listed all the things that make him a great, three dimensional character have not really been put on display for the past few months of game.  The Archon that left Thanesport could have been a great King. Even the Archon that helped refugees from Oceanus.  But the Archon of the moment? He is - at least sort of - a jerk, and a dangerous man to put on the throne.  Sure, Archon's not perfect.  No character has to be.  But he's falling a bit short of his name, at least, and WAY short of the way he's been best played.    



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> The fact is he might not be the best choice but he certainly is not the worst as you would make him out to be. for starters, he is good. a genuinely good person who puts other peoples needs first. second of all he's legitimate. so even if Jaine doesn't marry Archon, if she dies he becomes king anyway. Third of all, he's already a noble. Born and raised in the courts of Sylvanus, Archon knows a thing or too about ruling. He also has a formal education as well as an awesome selection of advisors he'd like to think of as close friends. Fourth of all, as a former Justice, Archon has a firm grasp of the kingdoms laws and how to go about adjucating such laws. Fifth of all Archon is hard to kill. Assassins are going to have a hell of a time trying to kill a guy who can hide just about anywhere, who can change his appearance at will, who can defend himself even with out the assistance of weapons and most importantly is almost completely resistant to magic.



You'll get no argument that Archon has the pedigree and the experience to be a decent ruler.  But is he using any of it?  I don't think anyone has seen much of it since Oceanus fell.  His mercy has been forgotten, his nobility lost in furious death threats and the persecution of important allies.  All of that can be gotten back, but not by a sullen Archon who consistently lashes out at those around him.  



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> What i'm trying to get at guys is that Archon has made some poor choices, yes, but he's still a good person with strengths and weaknesses. Human just like everyone else. i just feel, like Liz felt with Justice and Gertie feels with Xath, that you guys are basing your view on Archon on just a couple of events. Of course i guess it could just be poor roleplaying on my part, but i don't think so. i feel i've stayed true to the character despite certain compromises. But if it is poor roleplaying let me know.
> Anyway, i'm not mad or anything, i just feel a little bent about the whole thing.
> your buddy,
> mik



None of this is to say it's _poor_ role playing, but you have to see how it might strain the bonds of credulity to say it's the _same_ _character_.  There's a big difference between dark and mysterious, and sullen and broody.  Somewhere, that line was crossed. Can you get back on the other side?  I've certainly tried to offer chances for the limited redemption Archonus needs...but I can only fish for so long if nothing bites.  I'm willing to compromise for fun's sake. Can Archon compromise for the story's?


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## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> Okay, this sounds like you're going to go up and cherry pick from the mercenary companies.  This is a good plan if you're intending to get killed.  As I understand from Kennon's post, the mercs in the north operate in companies, not loners as in the south.  This means they've operated together, probably for some time, and therefore commanders are not going to appreciate you stealing away their finest/most experienced troops.  Indeed, knowing mercs, they'd kill you.  Fast.  And maybe a few who were going to go with you, just to set an example.
> 
> If you are going to get mercs from the north, you're going to have to hire whole companies (by which I mean coherent groups, not a specific number of troops).  You are first going to need to understand their current contracts.  Mercs are first and foremost businessman.  It's bad business to simply hop out on a contract.  And they're not going to bank on your assurances that Tain is going to be defeated.  Again, that's not good business, unless you can hire them for the duration of the rebellion and pay them well.  Mercs ain't going to leave a steady, reliable paycheck for the unknown, unless it's really worth their while.  That's just the way it is.
> 
> ...



 Lots of good comments that I don't have time to answer right now.  Do we want to flesh out "what you know" about Mercs on this thread, start another, or do it over e-mail?  

Mik and JC - just let me know, and I will happily oblige.  Preliminarily, I will say that JC is mostly right in his characterization of how mercenaries operate, but that Mik should still be able to get much (and perhaps all) of what he wants...if he plays his cards right. 

Let me know where to detail this!


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## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> we need to see if she would be willing to come back to life... with Xath at her side, she should be able to bring her back in mere seconds of death... or we need to find some way to magically super-boost her fort. saves to ensure she lives through the birthing process... or find a way to cure her before she has the children...
> 
> Gertie/Xath-- Bardic Knowledge to determine who would have such vast healing knowledge? If it could be found anywhere?



As far as I know, healing her paralysis magically is impossible so long as she is pregnant.  If you can find a spell/item/series of spells that would work differently, I'll entertain the idea, but still may choose not to approve it (it's a lot more likely if it's in the core rules).  This is a role playing challenge, not a combat to be won or lost.

Super boosting her fortitude saves may have a side effect of making things more dangerous, since they effect the children, as well.  Added to that is the very real possibility that the girl child will have a magical mark, and she could absorb all of the magic, and potentially eye-blast her way out of mom if you're not careful.  So, be cautious with the magic.

Besides, you don't want Archon to have mutant magic freakbabies, do you?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 2, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> As far as I know, healing her paralysis magically is impossible so long as she is pregnant.  If you can find a spell/item/series of spells that would work differently, I'll entertain the idea, but still may choose not to approve it (it's a lot more likely if it's in the core rules).  This is a role playing challenge, not a combat to be won or lost.




This was more a question about *where* to find information about healing than if I spell actually exists.  Looking for a place to research or a person to consult...

... I guess we could ask Big Blue... I bet his knowledge arcana is ridiculous.


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## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> This was more a question about *where* to find information about healing than if I spell actually exists.  Looking for a place to research or a person to consult...
> 
> ... I guess we could ask Big Blue... I bet his knowledge arcana is ridiculous.



 As far as in-game locations, you could try the Caer Melyn library, again.  Perhaps citadel refuge?  There are also libraries in Caer Albion...

However, that being said, let it be known that it's probably a wild goose chase.  No in-game library is going to turn something up that doesn't exist, as far as the Universe knows.  Does that make sense?  Research all you want, but until you the players show me something that might work, there won't be anything for your characters to find.


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## Archon (Nov 2, 2004)

*sinking in the mud*

I appreciate your understanding of my situation. And in Archon's defense i offer that his shift toward the dark side can be credited to a couple events.
1. Our current alliance with the Bluestar. One of the darkest forces on Ares.
2. The appearance of a bigger badder Archon.
3. The loss of his homeland to the Bluestar's forces.
4. The possibility of losing his childern or his queen in a child birth that is his fault.
5. The fact that the queen's despondency is directly his fault.
6. The fact that all of the good things he thought he had in life are slowly being taken away(his home, his children.....Xath).
7. L'Aurel's death and failed _true _ rebirth.
8.Arfin's death
9. And one last step away from the light was the black orc alliance that he was party to, and thus responsible for.

The appearance of his sister will do much to hold him from drifting too far but Archonus is not optimistic and he'll need a good victory or a lucky break if he is going to shrug off his growing weight of darkness.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

*"Election Scenarios"*

Since I'm all in the mood for determining national leaders, today, I thought I would provide some background (for discussion's sake) on the varying scenarios for the Phoenix Kingdom: 

1) Jaine dies, doesn't marry anybody, both children live. 
There are two subpossibilities in this case that must be examined, as well. 
a) she gins up a decree that legitimates her fatherless children or
b) both children are questionably legitimate, since their father is unknown (or at least unclaimed).  

In 1a, the male child would be the next in line for the throne.  Being a bit too young to effectively lead the rebellion, the throne would fall to either a regency council (probably made largely of the Circle), a specific regent (this could be a lot of people), or to the next best claimant to the throne.  Since in this scenario the kid would technically be a bastard, his claim would be about as good as Archons.  Since Archon is of ruling age already, the throne would more than likely fall to him.  So, PROBABLY, *1A = Archon*.  

In 1b, the aforementioned regent or regency councils would be more likely, but you'd probably lose potential support from outsiders, since a decree of legitimacy without a father isn't going to fly terribly well with the rest of the nobles in the kingdom.  You're in for a tougher fight for support, but Archon's son would still end up with the throne, since succession goes to male children first, _and _the daughter is likely to be marked.  In both 1a and b, she'll probably have to be hidden to make the succession work.  Thus, *1B = Archon Jr*., but with a larger chance of broad defeat. 

2) Jaine marries AA, dies, both kids live. 
In this scenario, Jaine marrying AA would make him King, and her Queen.  She'd probably be the ruler and he the consort until she died, but at that point, he'd become _ruling_ King, and his children would remain rightful heirs.  Upon AA's death, the son becomes king. *2 = Archon*, pretty good all around, as long as Archon can act kingly.  Support for the rebellion remains prety much as it is.  
(as a secondary note, after Jaine died, Archon would be free to pursue other lovers/wives after a suitable period of mourning).  

3) Jaine marries AB, dies, both kids live. 
In this scenario, AB becomes king, just like AA would have.  This would solidify an alliance with the Bluestar, which would certainly increase your chances of victory over Tain, although it could decrease support among the nobles. Once Jaine dies, AB is King.  However, once _he's_ dead, the throne goes to Jaine's children, son first. *3 = Archonus Bluestar*, and then a normal succession.  

4) Jaine marries AB, lives, both kids live.
In this scenario, the throne will pass from Jaine to her son, even though AB would be King. The alliance remains strong, but broad support from the nobility will probably never happen, at least for a human generation or two.  Both kids will be kept, and will seem to be AB's, even if they are AA's.  Presumably, they will be free of whatever oath binds AB.  Nonetheless, any additional children born of the union would be bound, unless the Bluestar is gone.  *4 = Jaine, then Archon Jr*., but with a pall because of his assumed (if incorrect) parentage.    

5) Jaine marries Joe Somebody, dies, both kids live
In this scenario, Jaine marries some guy, so that the kids have a presumptive father.  The marked daughter has to be hidden in order to make the _real_ parentage less obvious.  Joe can't become king because he is not a noble, and thus will only be the Royal Consort.  At this point, the solution is identical to 1, but there are at least a few more valid choices as to how it could be handled.  In later generations, Jaine's line will probably lose the throne, since Joe Somebody won't have strengthened Jaine's descendents claim on the throne, and will (in fact) have lessened it. *5 = Archon or Regency, then Archon Jr.*

6) Jaine marries AA, lives, both kids live
In this scenario, AA never becomes king.  Jaine's throne passes to her son, both children can be raised together, just like with AB.  The alliance with the Bluestar is not strengthened, but assuming that AA can be all kingly, the relationship with the nobility is better.  Since Jaine lives, Archon would _not_ be free to pursue other lovers/wives.  *6 =* *Jaine, then Archon Jr*. 

There are more scenarios possible, but those seem to be the likely ones.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 2, 2004)

Then-- we need to know whether or not she would choose to come back if she dies during labor...

So-- the ladies of KoA have to have their little chat with Jaine.  We can do that on the IC thread, email or over MSN... 

Is there are time when you ladies can do that?


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

*Sinking in the granite :/*



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> I appreciate your understanding of my situation. And in Archon's defense i offer that his shift toward the dark side can be credited to a couple events.
> 1. Our current alliance with the Bluestar. One of the darkest forces on Aeres.



At current, you have _no alliance_ with the Bluestar. Archonus Bluestar has been waiting for a chance to negotiate such a thing, but has not yet been granted audience in order to do so. All you did was trade swords, and agree to let him come here. So far, he hasn't been any harm, and has in fact acted to protect your interests on several occaisons. Furthermore, this runs precisely contrary to one of your oft-stated aims for the character. "I want the Bluestar to be redeemed," you say. And yet, when he offers to help you do something that is an absolute necessity for your success at NO COST to yourselves, you're angry about it? Was his redemption just not sacrificial enough, for you? 



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> 2. The appearance of a bigger badder Archon.



I don't think AB is any bigger, but he is certainly badder. Badder, not in the Michael Jackson sense, but in the "I'm willing to do the amoral thing" kind of way. Why, in the face of that, Archonus Arendorr would start to slip _in the same direction _is mindboggling, at least from a story perspective. "How can I distinguish myself from my dark doppelganger?" he must have asked himself. "I know! I'll become darker!"  



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> 3. The loss of his homeland to the Bluestar's forces.



Now that might be pretty depressing, I'll grant. But, according to AB, none of the Bluestar's undead forces have tread inside the city. So, it may have fallen, but the Bluestar's forces are showing remarkable restraint, thus far (as far as you know). 



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> 4. The possibility of losing his childern or his queen in a child birth that is his fault.



 It's perfectly sensible for the character to be scared about that, but none of his actions seemed to be seeking a solution. They're just making the problem(s) worse. It's no less Jaine's fault than Archons. If they were still together, she wouldn't be any less paralyzed or any more pregnant. None of the current situation, _except for Archon unwittingly antagonizing her_, is really making it better OR worse. 



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> 5. The fact that the queen's despondency is directly his fault.



Part of it is your fault, sure. But you didn't paralyze her. If Archon really feels bad about it, what's he doing to make it better? This would make perfect sense if he was doing something to help, but his method of soothing this deep inner pain seems to be to walk in and stir his despondent queen to near apoplectic fury.  



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> 6. The fact that all of the good things he thought he had in life are slowly being taken away(his home, his children.....Xath).



How is Xath being taken away? Or his children? He's got to have a pretty good idea that they're going to live, at least. Even in the worst of the Queen's fury, she offered to let him be a father, even if not a husband to her. He wasn't losing his kids at any point in the equation, until he refused to listen and _pushed too hard_. 



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> 7. L'Aurel's death and failed _true _rebirth.



Now that's just silly. Are you really telling me that he's upset because she wasn't _brought back to life _in the _right way!? _That's absurd! She wasn't resurrected _enough_ for you? 



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> 8.Arfin's death



No argument here. You get 10 free minutes of darkness. 



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> 9. And one last step away from the light was the black orc alliance that he was party to, and thus responsible for.



HOO BOY that worked out badly. Archon really is to blame for helping save the city, and inadvertantly reuniting Kaereth with his father. _What. a. jerk_. I don't even know why we keep him around. It's a good thing those black orcs aren't encamped around the walls waiting for orders, and are instead rampaging through the surrounding wildernes....oh wait! It's the opposite of that! 



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> The appearance of his sister will do much to hold him from drifting too far but Archonus is not optimistic and he'll need a good victory or a lucky break if he is going to shrug off his growing weight of darkness.



You've had victory after victory, and even triumphing over death itself isn't enough for Archon. I'm not saying that _everything_ is coming up roses, here, but Archon seems determined to interpret everything in as self-destructive a way as is possible. And, I'm saying, from the outside looking in, _it doesn't make sense_. 

I like Archon. I think I like him better than you do, since none of the stuff _I _can think of to throw at him is even half as bad as the stuff he either 1) does to himself or 2) imagines is out there, arrayed against him, despite all evidence and experience to the contrary. 

I think he's been and can be a _great_ character. I think you - Mik - are a great roleplayer*. But this is getting ridiculous. None of these are unreasonable set backs, and none of them are greater than the challenges the other characters have had to surmount, some of whom have passed beyond the gates of death themselves, and _still_ managed to emerge with a more realistic (and brighter) outlook than Archon's. 

He has love, he has friends, and he is fighting for the right cause. What more can a hero ask for? I am honestly at a loss as to how I could provide MORE chances for redemption. I'm trying to help you dig your character out of the rut, man, but at some point you've got to help me. I've compromised a great deal, only to have you turn momentously good occaisons into SOMETHING ELSE for Archon to be sad about. What do I need to do? Lay it out! PLEEEEEEASE tell me. 

Thanks for listening and reading. 


*I also think the rest of you are great, but this relates to Archon/Mik, in particular.


----------



## AIM-54 (Nov 2, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Lots of good comments that I don't have time to answer right now.  Do we want to flesh out "what you know" about Mercs on this thread, start another, or do it over e-mail?
> 
> Mik and JC - just let me know, and I will happily oblige.  Preliminarily, I will say that JC is mostly right in his characterization of how mercenaries operate, but that Mik should still be able to get much (and perhaps all) of what he wants...if he plays his cards right.
> 
> Let me know where to detail this!





Wherever's best for you.  I'll watch my email, this thread, any indications of a new thread.  If other's don't want it to clutter up this thread, that's cool, too.

I'm incredibly unhelpful, I know.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 2, 2004)

When it comes down to it-- our actions in game are what we make of them.  So, if Archonus wants us to recognize the good stuff-- he has to play it up.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> Wherever's best for you.  I'll watch my email, this thread, any indications of a new thread.  If other's don't want it to clutter up this thread, that's cool, too.
> 
> I'm incredibly unhelpful, I know.



 Yeah, I noticed.   Maybe if you and Mik are both coming over to watch election results, tonight, we can hammer it out, then?


----------



## AIM-54 (Nov 2, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Yeah, I noticed.   Maybe if you and Mik are both coming over to watch election results, tonight, we can hammer it out, then?





Works for me.


----------



## Archon (Nov 2, 2004)

*"whateva, you do what you want!! it's yo beautiful boty!"*

i'm not going to waste anymore space on the thread with my gripes about my character. I'm not a very good debater and i just wanted to let you guys know what was bugging instead of clamming up and brooding about it.   
Anyway, as far as the Succession Scenarios i only have a couple words..
1. Jaine won't marry AA.
2. I know it conflicts with earlier statements but after some thought i've decided that a marriage to AB is a bad idea. yes, let's ally ourselves even closer to darkness, sign me up.   
3. Any other choice short of Jaine marrying either Archon will weaken the strength of our claim. so unless we want to say, "screw it, let's enstate a rebellion", she needs to marry one of us and i'm uncomfortable with The Prince of the Deathlands being so close to rulership of our cause. Plus unless we can break his oath what is to stop the Bluestar from pulling our strings or worse.
anyway, my two cents. peice.


----------



## Xath (Nov 2, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> This was more a question about *where* to find information about healing than if I spell actually exists.  Looking for a place to research or a person to consult...
> 
> ... I guess we could ask Big Blue... I bet his knowledge arcana is ridiculous.




Just FYI, for those of you who don't know/remember, Xath has more knowledges available to her than just Bardic.  She's got max ranks in Knowledge Arcana and Knowledge History, with a few ranks in Knowledge Nobility & Royalty.  Impulsive, she may be.  Stupid she is not.

So, for any of you who want to "ask Xath a question" (actually asking Kennon because I don't know what Xath knows), the modifiers are:

Knowledge Arcana = +22
Knowledge History = +22
Knowledge Nobility & Royalty = +9
Bardic Knowledge = +21


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> Works for me.



 Mik?


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 2, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Just FYI, for those of you who don't know/remember, Xath has more knowledges available to her than just Bardic.  She's got max ranks in Knowledge Arcana and Knowledge History, with a few ranks in Knowledge Nobility & Royalty.  Impulsive, she may be.  Stupid she is not.
> 
> So, for any of you who want to "ask Xath a question" (actually asking Kennon because I don't know what Xath knows), the modifiers are:
> 
> ...



 I'm well aware of Xath's knowledges... just figured for the info I was trying to hunt, Bardic would be the best option.


----------



## Archon (Nov 2, 2004)

*re:*



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> Mik?




works for me as well. as soon as i can i'm gettin't the hell outta dodge.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> i'm not going to waste anymore space on the thread with my gripes about my character. I'm not a very good debater and i just wanted to let you guys know what was bugging instead of clamming up and brooding about it.



In case it's not apparent above, I (for one) am appreciative of the heads up at least.  I'm not necessarily trying to debate you, but my request for information on how to get Archon out of the "jerk" rut was sincere.  PLEASE help me - as I said, I've offered several olive branches, and have had all of them thrown back at me, twisted and broken.  Tell me what needs to be done, and I'll see what I can do.  This is as good a forum for it as any.  



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> Anyway, as far as the Succession Scenarios i only have a couple words..
> 1. Jaine won't marry AA.



Not in the current situation, no.  When Archon presented it to her, he did nothing to make it seem attractive to her, and when she turned away from the idea, he became threatening.  A lot of stuff would have to happen IC to make this a possibility, most of which would require Archon to use a "social" skill other than _intimidate.  _Also, he'd have to work something out _that makes sense _with his current beau, to whom he has semi-publicly proclaimed his love.  



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> 2. I know it conflicts with earlier statements but after some thought i've decided that a marriage to AB is a bad idea. yes, let's ally ourselves even closer to darkness, sign me up.



I'm not saying you've got to jump for joy with the possibility of an alliance with the Bluestar, but you can and should recognize that the two evils are not emanating from the same source, and are of disparate goals and means.  Furthermore, you should be able to distinguish a lesser evil from a greater one.  Lastly, you *still* don't know what the Bluestar's interest in all of this is, since _no_ _one will investigate_.  It's probably got a nefarious angle, at least, but you're just grasping in the dark, willfully remaining ignorant in case you find out things aren't as bad as you think they may be.  :/



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> 3. Any other choice short of Jaine marrying either Archon will weaken the strength of our claim. so unless we want to say, "screw it, let's enstate a rebellion", she needs to marry one of us and i'm uncomfortable with The Prince of the Deathlands being so close to rulership of our cause. Plus unless we can break his oath what is to stop the Bluestar from pulling our strings or worse.



Just because the other options present a weaker claim, doesn't mean you need to abandon trying to make one.  Weaker and nonexistent are not the same thing.  Furthermore, you've already said, "screw it, let's have a rebellion" because the current framework is dominated by a tainted King.  The only way to pursue your claim in a non-rebellious manner would be to just wait for Tain to die, and hope that Jaine's still alive to press her claim, then. 

In addition, since you don't know what the terms of AB's oath are, you really can't know how his proximity to the throne will affect you.  I could accept a lot of this if you had made an attempt to learn about the oath...but no one has.  That's not just Archon's fault, and I don't want to make it sound liek it is.  Regardless of whether he marries Jaine, you hope to use his troops at the Isle of Mourning, right? You're going to HAVE to try to learn what the bounds of his oath are...and now is as good a time as any.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> works for me as well. as soon as i can i'm gettin't the hell outta dodge.



 Cool - just as a heads up, Liz is at the apt. if you need/want to head over that way.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 2, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Lastly, you *still* don't know what the Bluestar's interest in all of this is, since _no_ _one will investigate_.  It's probably got a nefarious angle, at least, but you're just grasping in the dark, willfully remaining ignorant in case you find out things aren't as bad as you think they may be.  :/




Hey, I resent that comment.  

First, talking with the Bluestar has been on Justice's list of "Things we need to do" since AB entered the picture... I have spent quite a bit of time trying to convince Mik/Archonus that it is a good idea... You know, Kennon, you were there.

There is at least one person willing to investigate... but, she can't do it alone.  So, don't make it sound like all of us are overlooking a huge opportunity to get a bunch of unknown information when.

Second, there really isn't a good time to do the.  I wanted to do it when we were having our dead time.  But, you pushed us forward in the game and so, now, we can't go back and do stuff like this during "dead time"... and now, we're a little to occupied to do anything outside of the planning for Caer Albion.  Though it would be nice to stop for tea and a chat with ol' Blue Eye while we're gathering mercs, I don't know that we have time.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

*Not really to Liz, in particular...*



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Hey, I resent that comment.
> 
> First, talking with the Bluestar has been on Justice's list of "Things we need to do" since AB entered the picture... I have spent quite a bit of time trying to convince Mik/Archonus that it is a good idea... You know, Kennon, you were there.



I know it's been talked about, but no one has made mention of it in a group-wide forum.  It's not a criticism for any one person.  



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> There is at least one person willing to investigate... but, she can't do it alone. So, don't make it sound like all of us are overlooking a huge opportunity to get a bunch of unknown information when.



I won't argue that you've been trying to get people motivated, but I thought I'd mention here, where everyone can read it, that for all any one person's efforts, _nothing_ has happened.  You can talk to AB, you can talk to Cawys, you can even talk to Ol' Blue himself.  You can commune, you can scry, you can do whatever you want...but it has not happened.   



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Second, there really isn't a good time to do the. I wanted to do it when we were having our dead time. But, you pushed us forward in the game and so, now, we can't go back and do stuff like this during "dead time"... and now, we're a little to occupied to do anything outside of the planning for Caer Albion.



It's up to you if you're too occupied.  I think it's worth looking into, no matter what else is going on.  And I didn't mandate you move forward, I just _encouraged_ it.  I'm sorry I did, as it's apparently a huge sore spot.  But after having been criticized about goign back and forth during the last "break" I thought I'd make sure that things were more consistent, this time.  Time moves only forward, and I want the timeline to _go.  _Is that so wrong?  If you want to do this in the past, fine.  But you can't base ANY questions on information you didn't have until after things happened.  During the last session I *repeatedly* asked if there were things you wanted done on the days in question.  Nobody said anything. So nothing was done. The timeline moves forward, and you're really not at _any _disadvantage.  You never have time, you make time.  If it's important now, _make_ _time_.   



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Though it would be nice to stop for tea and a chat with ol' Blue Eye while we're gathering mercs, I don't know that we have time.



Why don't you check with any of the numerous other sources of information, first? "Asking" the Bluestar is NOT easy, and would be an adventure in and of itself. Stopping for tea isn't going to cut it.  It's a good idea to talk to him, but you need to set up that meeting, something that was apparently not important enough to do the first time we went through this set of days.   I honestly do not understand why I'm being unfair to hold you to the original series of events.  

But if you want to go back, fine.  Just remember that I am holding people to the rules of _sequence_.


----------



## AIM-54 (Nov 2, 2004)

Whee!  Look at the sparks fly! 

Anyway, I think at this point it might be a good idea to sit down and come up with a list of the major things we want to do, prioritize them and then go about planning/undertaking them.  All in the move forward state of mind, as I agree with Kennon's point about sequencing and whatnot.  Missed opportunities are missed opportunities, let's go from where we are right now in the timeline.  JMO.

Some of this stuff has been sorta bandied about, but mostly in an ad hoc manner.  We've had stuff going on about Caer Albion, Jaine, the Bluestar, mercenaries and more (probably, my memory is kinda fuzzy), but we've sort of jumped from topic to topic as new things get thrown out, without ever really resolving what we were previously concerned about.

By laying out a comprehensive plan of sorts going on what we know and are concerned with right now, I think we'll be able to much more effectively tackle those tasks that need to be tackled.  As events warrant we can make changes to our plan;  priorities certainly can change based on events, but with this plan as a foundation, I think we'll have much less dead-time because we can't remember everything on game day or we're still fighting out what our priorities should be.

To begin, stuff that's kicking around that needs to be taken care of:

Caer Albion
Mercenaries
Bluestar
Jaine Succession/pregnancy etc.
Isle of Mourning

I'm sure there are more, but my memory sucks, so I'm going to stop there.  None of those are in any priority order, I'm simply making an initial list from which we can begin to prioritize.  Let's just get ideas out first before we begin prioritizing too, just to keep things organized and flowing in a sequential manner.

If I'm way off, feel free to ignore me.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

A general note on IC discussions: 

1) I know there are several completed IC discussions that have not reached the IC thread.  Get them there, please.  ALL of them.  In-character, you can have secrets.  Out of character, they're just annoying.  Disclose!  Post them for public consumption.  

2) The one-on-one discussions between PCs and NPCs have gone a little too far.  Please, try to visit NPCs in small groups, at least, or at least offer to include others in the discussion(s).  The easy solution is to _use gmail threads (reply-all, etc.)_, and allow people to pop in and out as they please, and as their schedules allow.  Alternately, there's the IC thread, which I would also encourage.  It also cuts down on secrets and information doubling, which is cool.  

3) Whenever possible, I'd like RP to happen in the session.  E-mail and msn are fun, but are poor subsititutes for real life interactions, even if based on fake stuff.  I also realize it's not the most fun to watch if you're not involved in the discussion.  So, I'll also ask that in-character discussions, ESPECIALLY in session, include _as many people as possible_.  So, rather than having Xath talk to AB, Archonus talk to Cawys, Justice talk to Jaine, and L'Aurel talk to Dorn, take the whole Circle to talk to each of them.  PLEASE.  There are, of course, exceptions (like much of Jansten's stuff).  But I'd like one-on-one conversations to _be_ an exception, not the rule. 

 * * * * * * * 

It's far too late in the game to keep playing conversational chess.  You all need to get on the same page, and stay there!  Please!   

If you're looking for clarification, I'm happy to provide.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

*1 of 4*

Just for the record, this was not intentional.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

*2 of 4*

Even though I was joking about accidently triple posting last night.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

*This was actually the 3rd freakin' copy*

I blame TSA's network.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 2, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> A general note on IC discussions:




I completely agree with all of that.

Everything that I have done that is postable has been posted. Do we want to set up a place or a way to post the MSN conversations that never got turned into "stories"?


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

*But what I wanted to say was....*



			
				AIM-54 said:
			
		

> Whee! Look at the sparks fly!
> 
> Anyway, I think at this point it might be a good idea to sit down and come up with a list of the major things we want to do, prioritize them and then go about planning/undertaking them. All in the move forward state of mind, as I agree with Kennon's point about sequencing and whatnot. Missed opportunities are missed opportunities, let's go from where we are right now in the timeline. JMO.
> 
> ...



Look's great. I think, IC, the current priority chain is: 

1.) Caer Albion
--a. Mercenaries
2.) Isle of Mourning
--a. Bluestar
3.) Jaine's succession/pregnancy etc.
--a. Bluestar

The above groups the major problems, hopefully showing how the group seems to think they relate to one another. Am I close?


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 2, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I completely agree with all of that.
> 
> Everything that I have done that is postable has been posted. Do we want to set up a place or a way to post the MSN conversations that never got turned into "stories"?



In fact, I would suggest that Msn conversations that are not stories get posted in the following format: 

Cut out the extraneous discussion, and just have it be 

Kaereth: Blah blah blah
Ol' Blue: Blah blah blah
Kaereth: blee blee blee
Your mom: wah wah wah

etc. It's not as pretty, but it gets the job done. Expediency is the key, here.


----------



## Xath (Nov 3, 2004)

That'll make it alot easier.  Putting stuff into story form has been holding me up quite a bit.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 3, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> That'll make it alot easier.  Putting stuff into story form has been holding me up quite a bit.



 Cool beans.   I saw the posts on the IC thread. That should help.  

EVERYBODY: Now, let's get to some planning, again.  JC has provided an excellent framework for initial discussion, on pretty much all the issues.  I tried to group them, above.  Any thoughts on whether I grouped them well?


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 3, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> 1.) Caer Albion
> --a. Mercenaries




Think the following needs to be added:

1.) Caer Albion
--b. Scouting to determine the current situation
--c. Talking with leaders inside the city


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## The_Universe (Nov 3, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Think the following needs to be added:
> 
> 1.) Caer Albion
> --b. Scouting to determine the current situation
> --c. Talking with leaders inside the city



 Those are excellent parts of a plan for Caer Albion, but I think JC was just trying to identify the major _issues_ that the Circle cares about, and I was trying to link them up as they connected to each other.  Is that right, JC?  

Regardless, those are things to keep in mind as you develop a plan to take care of your issues.  Make sure they're not forgotten.  Are we ready to start planning for those issues, or are there more issues that require immediate attention?


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## The_Universe (Nov 3, 2004)

Secondarily, was my priority list accurate?  Is Caer Albion the most important, followed by the Isle of Mourning, followed by Jaine correct?  Have I misidentified sub-issues?  If the order I gave accurately reflects what you're thinking, then we should be moving on toward the ubiquitous and rarified _plan. _


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## Archon (Nov 3, 2004)

*Scouting*

our first priority is to seek out the leaders in Caer Albion and make ourselves useful. They can fill us in on what is attacking them and possibly what is leading the draconic assault. whatever we can't find out from them we'll have to find ou tourselves.
one good way is to Scry Archonus(aka "The Big Sneaky") as he sneaks around the enemy lines. we could also commune with the light as to the nature of the assault and possibly who leads it.
anyway, these are two possibilities. 
mik


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## AIM-54 (Nov 3, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Those are excellent parts of a plan for Caer Albion, but I think JC was just trying to identify the major _issues_ that the Circle cares about, and I was trying to link them up as they connected to each other.  Is that right, JC?




Exactly right.  My thought is that given the long hiatus between now and our next session, we don't need to rush things.  We can take the time to list current issues, prioritize them and then plan them.  Right now, we're in the prioritize phase, because everyone seems to agree on the list I formulated earlier.  Once we get the priorities down, then we can start planning how to go about accomplishing our objectives.

That said, I think our top priority is Caer Albion, but I welcome further discussion on that, as well as where we need to rank everything else.

But I guess I can't stop people from jumping ahead and starting to plan things anyway.  I was just trying to bring order to what sometimes appears to be a chaotic flow of conversation/ideas on the boards.


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## The_Universe (Nov 3, 2004)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> Exactly right.  My thought is that given the long hiatus between now and our next session, we don't need to rush things.  We can take the time to list current issues, prioritize them and then plan them.  Right now, we're in the prioritize phase, because everyone seems to agree on the list I formulated earlier.  Once we get the priorities down, then we can start planning how to go about accomplishing our objectives.
> 
> That said, I think our top priority is Caer Albion, but I welcome further discussion on that, as well as where we need to rank everything else.
> 
> But I guess I can't stop people from jumping ahead and starting to plan things anyway.  I was just trying to bring order to what sometimes appears to be a chaotic flow of conversation/ideas on the boards.



 I think it's a good idea to get the problems as listed firmly ranked. 

I also think that time (in real life) may allow you to develop a plan extensive enough to take care of several (or all) of the issues. Although no plan will probably let you take care of them all at once, you may be able to create a domino effect for some of the issues.  

For instance, what and how you decide to deal with the Bluestar will most assuredly effect how both Jaine and the Isle of Mourning play out, and effect who and what you can take (should you choose) to Caer Albion.


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## Xath (Nov 4, 2004)

If we can get a large number of mercenaries, we could cover our bases at both Caer Albion and the Isle of Mourning...and not just mercenaries.  If we could get Jansten's people from the north to help us below the wall, in return for an undisclosed (as of yet) something...

Perhaps we could arrange to temporarily remove the rebels from the Bluestar's hair in exchange for the freedom of Archonus Bluestar and Gyan Thunderheart.  We make an agreement with Jansten's people to help them once the 13 blades are destroyed to help us below the wall.  Then we hire up mercs as well...

Xath has 50000 of her gold alotted to the stronghold, but it can be shifted to the war effort if need be.


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## The_Universe (Nov 4, 2004)

And with that, JC, I think our ranks can be considered correct. Let's move on from there.


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## The_Universe (Nov 4, 2004)

*I suck*

double post


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## The_Universe (Nov 4, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> If we can get a large number of mercenaries, we could cover our bases at both Caer Albion and the Isle of Mourning...



 As a general note, I would advise against using mercenenaries in a place where you are not directly engaged. You'll want to make sure you're getting your money's worth, and most merc bands are not known for their valor. Cunning? Yes. Bravery? Not terribly. This is a good general idea, as I will say further below, but you still know too little about the mercs themselves to much further forward. However, I am happy to answer questions relating to them, so it can be remedied, at least.



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> and not just mercenaries. If we could get Jansten's people from the north to help us below the wall, in return for an undisclosed (as of yet) something...



But what it could it be? Jansten came seeking AB's aid in a rebellion, and failing that, your help. Is there anything you can think of that you could offer his rebellion that they'd consider an equal trade? 



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> Perhaps we could arrange to temporarily remove the rebels from the Bluestar's hair in exchange for the freedom of Archonus Bluestar and Gyan Thunderheart. We make an agreement with Jansten's people to help them once the 13 blades are destroyed to help us below the wall. Then we hire up mercs as well...



This is an interesting idea, but requires a great deal of subterfuge on your parts. Remember, Jansten's rebellion is based on overthrowing the Bluestar. The Bluestar's not likely to grant the freedom of AB and Gyan Thunderheart to you for the privilege of having you fight against him in the future. You'd have to be VERY careful to not reveal that you plan to aid the rebels in the future. He's not going to give you a gift so that he can have the privilege of fighting you later. At the very least, he won't do so on such open and obvious terms. 

Lastly, the rebels are clearly not much of a problem in the North, at least of yet, because AB's leading a major army south of the wall, rather than using them to defend Grampa. That either means that the rebellion has so far gone unnoticed as such, or that the Bluestar is so confident in his grasp on power that he's willing to risk an uprising as his troops march south...



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> Xath has 50000 of her gold alotted to the stronghold, but it can be shifted to the war effort if need be.



It all depends on what you _plan. _If a plan requires a stronghold, you'll need the money there. If what you come up with requires troops or specialized equipment...an extra 50,000 GP won't hurt.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 4, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> It all depends on what you _plan. _If a plan requires a stronghold, you'll need the money there. If what you come up with requires troops or specialized equipment...an extra 50,000 GP won't hurt.




The stronghold is a cool thing... but-- at this point-- I think it needs to be placed on the backburner... Justice really wants a fancy bedroom with room to house all the pretty dresses she wishes she owned... but, right now, we probably need to focus on the bad guys.


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## Xath (Nov 4, 2004)

I saw the stronghold as more of a defensable place to hide the blades, than as a luxurious palace.  Of course, we could have our cake and eat it too.  That way we wouldn't be stuck giving the blades to old blue.


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## Archon (Nov 4, 2004)

*Sellswords*

Can we get a listing of the Mercenaries by company.
We also need each company's numbers, specialty, past exploits, past employers and general experience level (how many battles they have been in as a unit).


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 5, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> I saw the stronghold as more of a defensable place to hide the blades, than as a luxurious palace.  Of course, we could have our cake and eat it too.  That way we wouldn't be stuck giving the blades to old blue.



 If our goal is to have a place to hide and defend the blades, trying to build it ourself right now is probably not going to work... we simply do not have the time, because if all goes according to plan, we will have at least one--probably more--blades in the next few days.

Instead, we need to be thinking of a place where they will be safe until we have time to do something better.

Any ideas?


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## Xath (Nov 5, 2004)

How about the room with the sigil of anti-magic?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 5, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> How about the room with the sigil of anti-magic?



 That could work... but, we might want to move the room to someplace else... maybe bury it someplace... or something... not quite sure... but-- that's a starting point...

We need to stop it from being found with Locate Object spells... is that possible?


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## Xath (Nov 5, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> That could work... but, we might want to move the room to someplace else... maybe bury it someplace... or something... not quite sure... but-- that's a starting point...
> 
> We need to stop it from being found with Locate Object spells... is that possible?




The sigil should stop it from being located with locate object, scry, augury(sp?) etc.


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## Archon (Nov 5, 2004)

*Now that the ward is up...*

we could always hold them at Caer Meylyn....


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 5, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> we could always hold them at Caer Meylyn....



 If we're going to use it for a diplomatic meeting place, I don't know if I like having them there...


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## Xath (Nov 5, 2004)

And we don't really _have _ Caer Melyn.


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## The_Universe (Nov 5, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> we could always hold them at Caer Meylyn....



 The ward only prevents the use of spells and spell-like abilities, not the use of magic items.  Furthermore, it does nothing to prevent theft of the mundane variety.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 5, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> And we don't really _have _ Caer Melyn.



 Don't think that anyone was saying that we did... in fact, I was calling it a neutral zone...

And, I just don't really like the idea of keeping them there... I'll do some thinking tomorrow and see what I come up with.


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## The_Universe (Nov 5, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> The sigil should stop it from being located with locate object, scry, augury(sp?) etc.



 Yes, it would.  But it cannot prevent spells like Commune, I believe (but I could be wrong. Anybody want to answer that question?), nor does it - once more - prevent theft of the common "sneak in and sneak out" variety.

That being said, before you invest too much thought and energy into finding a place to put them, you really ought to consider what you're ultimately going to do with them, and if being concerned about them is something you can currently afford, what with the problems_ that JC went to the trouble of enumerating,_ and I ranking a couple of pages back.  I am sure, at the very least, he'd appreciate a thumbs up for his attempt.  After all, there's no sense hiding them if you're going to give them to old Blue, anyway, or if your real focus is going to be the war itself, and not the blades.  

On the other hand, it's possible that _it all fits together somehow_....


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## The_Universe (Nov 5, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> And we don't really _have _ Caer Melyn.



 No, you don't.  And, considering the way you left it, what with your heresy and everything, may not have left it entirely _neutral_, either.  At least it's not garrisoned, as of yet...


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## The_Universe (Nov 5, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> Can we get a listing of the Mercenaries by company.
> We also need each company's numbers, specialty, past exploits, past employers and general experience level (how many battles they have been in as a unit).



 That's a big question. I'll answer as extensively as I can, as time permits. Stay on the lookout.


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## Archon (Nov 5, 2004)

*Caer Melyn*

we have Caer Melyn if we take it. i think it's the safest place to hide them. we take Caer Melyn, drop the swords in the bowels of the temple, summon some creatures to protect it, post some guards with an "Eye of Aregonn" or two and leave it little more then a well guarded garrison.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 5, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> we have Caer Melyn if we take it. i think it's the safest place to hide them. we take Caer Melyn, drop the swords in the bowels of the temple, summon some creatures to protect it, post some guards with an "Eye of Aregonn" or two and leave it little more then a well guarded garrison.



 I think it's too obvious.  News that Caer Melyn has been taken will inevitably travel... and summoning creatures to protect/having a small garrison there to serve as guards doesn't do any more to conceal the location of the blades.

I think that Caer Melyn will serve as a very good tool later, as a neutral place to hold negotiations and the like much later... with the ward up, we could even have tea with Big Blue there without worrying too much about our safety.


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## Archon (Nov 5, 2004)

*misdirection*

then how bout this...
same plan, no blades. we make a big fuss about how we're putting the blades there for protection and then we just hide them under a big rock er something.


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## The_Universe (Nov 5, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> then how bout this...
> same plan, no blades. we make a big fuss about how we're putting the blades there for protection and then we just hide them under a big rock er something.



 That might work.


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## Xath (Nov 5, 2004)

So far as I know, and history accounts for, the only magical item that detects the Spirit Blades is the Queen's Amulet.  Which we have.


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## The_Universe (Nov 5, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I think that Caer Melyn will serve as a very good tool later, as a neutral place to hold negotiations and the like much later... with the ward up, we could even have tea with Big Blue there without worrying too much about our safety.



That's a good idea, but in order to make it happen, you'd have to arrange it so that he could get south of the Wall...


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 5, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> That's a good idea, but in order to make it happen, you'd have to arrange it so that he could get south of the Wall...



 Don't think it could happen right now-- but SOMEDAY.


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## The_Universe (Nov 5, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> So far as I know, and history accounts for, the only magical item that detects the Spirit Blades is the Queen's Amulet.  Which we have.



 Actually, the serpentblood located greyclaw by using specialized locate object scrolls, if you recall.


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## The_Universe (Nov 8, 2004)

*10 Mercenary Bands (more coming)*

This information comes from Cawys, who's the only person in your immediate association that has had enough experience to be able to comment on the relative strengths and weaknesses of any of the mercenary bands that operate in the North. As such, any information you can get is colored by his experience and opinion. 

*Jenkin's Company*
Jenkin's company is renowned south of the wall for their cunning, and ability to ensure that almost any mission is accomplished, if not always within the contractually allotted time. Jenkins himself keeps his men disciplined when on a mission, but encourages less-than-savory behaviors when they're not. The captain is, at best, marginally sane, but he commands great loyalty from his troops, who are always paid on time. 
Leader: Captain Gerritt Jenkins
Organization: Military
Contract: Task-based
Approximate Number: 250
Troop types: 
Foot Skirmishers: 0
Mounted Skirmishers: 0
Light Foot: 50
Medium Foot: 50
Heavy Foot: 25
Light Mounted: 50
Medium Mounted: 50
Heavy Mounted: 25
Exotic: 0

*Timm's Blades*
Timm's Blades are a ravening horde of cruel swordsman. As a result, Timm is usually forced to billet his forces above the Wall, even when not on contract. Timm's men can often be found south of the wall in small groups, the only way in which they're not considered a danger to innocent citizenry. One-eyed Timm is careful, cunning, and brave - a set of characteristics not generally found in mercenary leaders. He treats his men fairly, but is not overly kind to them. Strife from one of his chief lieutenants led to the once bi-orbed leader earning his current nickname. How a relatively honorable man ended up leading so may ruffians is an enduring mystery in the North. 
Leader: One-Eyed Timm
Organization: Horde
Contract: Time 
Approximate Number: 300
Troop types: 
Foot Skirmishers: 0
Mounted Skirmishers: 0
Light Foot: 0
Medium Foot: 200
Heavy Foot: 75 
Light Mounted: 
Medium Mounted: 
Heavy Mounted: 
Exotic: 25*
*Ogrun Bladesmen

*The Steelhelms*
The Steelhelms are a group of disgraced former military officers, gathered around a former Army Captain named Alexander Steelhelm. Steelhelm himself is a certified genius, and can accomplish with his 50 men and women what other bands could not do with a thousand. But you get what you pay for. The Steelhelms are expensive, and Alexander is very choosy about jobs. 
Leader: Commander Alexander Steelhelm
Organization: Military
Contract:Task
Approximate Number: 50
Troop types: 
Foot Skirmishers: 0
Mounted Skirmishers: 0
Light Foot: 0
Medium Foot: 0
Heavy Foot: 0
Light Mounted: 0
Medium Mounted: 0
Heavy Mounted: 0
Exotic: 50*
*Assorted classed characters of questionable morals. 

*The Greyshield Battalion*
The Greyshield Battalion can be identified by the slate-grey shields that nearly all of its members carry, an emblem that is also emblazoned across the unit's banners. Its members are noted for their discipline, and for refusing to leave any of their fallen on a battlefield, no matter the cost. At the same time, deserters from the Greyshields are mercilessly hunted and killed, assuming they ever make it out of camp. 
Leader: Major Maximus Fennig
Organization: Military
Contract: Time
Approximate Number: 500
Troop types: 
Foot Skirmishers: 100
Mounted Skirmishers: 0
Light Foot: 150
Medium Foot: 150
Heavy Foot: 100
Light Mounted: 0
Medium Mounted: 0
Heavy Mounted: 0
Exotic: 0

*The Band of the Red Leaf*
A group of High Alder both inspired and shamed by the actions of their race in the last great war, the Band of the Red Leaf is made up primarily of elves who feel that serving in the Royal Army is too small a payment for their races shame. The band purposely seeks out dangerous missions, hoping to restore their races lost glory one battle at a time. Although not bound by tight discipline, many of the members of the band are veterans, and thus the band has largely conformed to the same organization as the army. 
Leader: Commander Nehran Oakbow
Organization: Military
Contract: Time
Approximate Number: 500
Troop types: 
Foot Skirmishers: 
Mounted Skirmishers: 0
Light Foot: 400*
Medium Foot: 0
Heavy Foot: 0
Light Mounted: 100**
Medium Mounted: 0
Heavy Mounted: 0
Exotic: 0
*Armed with longbows
**Armed with shortbows

*The Jade Company*
All graduates of the Jade Forest Academy, these highly-trained mercenaries are often in high-demand in the North. Although not all graduates of the Academy join this prestigious company, many of the best do. The company operates primarily in the North, while a sister organization, the Jade Hunters, operates in the South. Discipline is rarely necessary in the company, as its members were practically born into the military life. 
Leader: Captain Tarin Bless
Organization: Military
Contract: Task
Approximate Number: 250
Troop types: 
Foot Skirmishers: 0
Mounted Skirmishers: 0
Light Foot: 0
Medium Foot: 150
Heavy Foot: 0
Light Mounted: 0
Medium Mounted: 0
Heavy Mounted: 100
Exotic: 0


*The Mountain Legion*
The Mountain Legion is a unit of Ogrun. About half are from the South, while the remaining half were born in the Deathlands, and have sought refuge with their better-treated brethren. Named for the mountains that their people often call home, the Mountain Legion pursues its objectives with a single-minded dedication, at least until its contract runs out. Their terms are often simple, and its leadership easy to work with, the only reason that the Legion is not always used is because it costs so much to feed Ogrun. 
Leader: Warleader Krug
Organization: Horde
Contract: Time
Approximate Number: 1000
Troop types: 
Foot Skirmishers: 0
Mounted Skirmishers: 0
Light Foot: 0
Medium Foot: 0
Heavy Foot: 0
Light Mounted: 0
Medium Mounted: 0
Heavy Mounted: 0
Exotic: 1000*
*Ogres

*The Brotherhood of Ceridrawn*
The Brotherhood is named for the city in which they first gathered. Remnants of hundreds of broken mercenary bands, they came together in partnership to seek contracts and to survive. Since its founding, the Brotherhood has become increasingly dominated by the more savage races of the Great Ring, although anyone can seek a partnership in the Brotherhood. The Brotherhood's leaders are elected, and its members share equally in any profits from its exploits. 
Leader: General Drynn 
Organization: Horde
Contract: Time
Approximate Number: 2000
Troop types: 
Foot Skirmishers: 0
Mounted Skirmishers: 0
Light Foot: 250 
Medium Foot: 250
Heavy Foot: 250
Light Mounted: 0
Medium Mounted: 250
Heavy Mounted: 0
Exotic: 1000*
*Hobgoblins

*The Hammer of Moradin*
Named after a mythical hammer of one of the patriarchs of the dwarven race, this group of mostly dwarven troops has a reputation for efficiency, and brutality. It's leader, the self-styled General Grut Bonegrinder is primarily responsible for the unit's record on brutality, and his troops responsible for efficiency. Although not a terribly good leader, Grut rules his men with an iron fist, and at least ensures that they are paid on time and often. 
Leader: General Grut Bonegrinder
Organization: Military
Contract: Time
Approximate Number: 250
Troop types: 
Foot Skirmishers: 0
Mounted Skirmishers: 0
Light Foot: 0
Medium Foot: 0
Heavy Foot: 250
Light Mounted: 0
Medium Mounted: 0
Heavy Mounted: 0
Exotic: 0

*The Bloodborn*
The Bloodborn are a relatively old unit, started by the younger sons of a group of Aesirin nobles shortly after the War of the Damned. Still a haven for spoiled nobility, they nonetheless have a fairly successful record.
Leader: Colonel Reshathir Thorasen
Organization: Military
Contract: Time
Approximate Number: 720
Troop types: 
Foot Skirmishers: 0
Mounted Skirmishers: 120
Light Foot: 0
Medium Foot: 0
Heavy Foot: 0
Light Mounted: 200
Medium Mounted: 200
Heavy Mounted: 200
Exotic: 0


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 8, 2004)

There are now 10 bands listed, with 10 still to come.


----------



## Xath (Nov 8, 2004)

Very nice.  Looks like we may be hooking up with some interesting people, to say the least.  So what's the plan?  Can someone sumup what we have agreed upon so far?


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 8, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Very nice.  Looks like we may be hooking up with some interesting people, to say the least.  So what's the plan?  Can someone sumup what we have agreed upon so far?



 I can't say that anything has been agreed... 

We know we need to do something about:
1.) Caer Albion 
2.) The Isle of Mourning

What, exactly, we're going to do is yet to be determined... 

1.) We know we need to scout and scry in Caer Albion... and talk with the leaders there...
2.) There's talk of utilizing Big Blue's forces to do something about the Isle of Mourning... but, we need to strike up a deal that allows us to keep the blades.

Lots and lots of questions... we can get some of the answers... but, I don't think we should move too far ahead until Kat and Greg get back.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 9, 2004)

Whoops. Nevermind.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 9, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I wouldn't wait that long.  You can choose not to finalize anything until they return, but I HIGHLY recommend that those of you who are here and participating hammer out a Plan A, and a Plan B, at least.  When Kat and Greg return, you can present the options to them, but it's just going to be 8 hours of _pure frustration_ if you decide nothing until then.



 I'm not saying nothing should be done-- we can make options... but, I do think we should hold to the "if two or more are out" we don't play standard.  And, that is what I was getting at.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 9, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I'm not saying nothing should be done-- we can make options... but, I do think we should hold to the "if two or more are out" we don't play standard.  And, that is what I was getting at.



 I never suggested that you should get together and play without Kat and Greg.  On the other hand, I do think it's become pretty clear that most of the group finds a session of pure role playing more than a little boring and frustrating.  

As such, I cautioned against waiting to make the plan until then, since, based on the current trend, I can't imagine a planning session being fun for anyone but Jeremiah and myself.  

On the other hand, I could be wrong.  I don't want to push Kat or Greg out of the process, but I do want to have fun when we play, and this kind of stuff is precisely what the boards are best for.  So, I encourage you to seek information and Mik and JC have done with the mercenaries, and keep developing a plan of action.  

Unless you'd prefer to do it in-session.   

Just let me know.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 9, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> On the other hand, I do think it's become pretty clear that most of the group finds a session of pure role playing more than a little boring and frustrating.
> 
> Unless you'd prefer to do it in-session.
> 
> Just let me know.




I think that, for this particular portion of planning, we need to have the whole group together in order to make the necessary decisions.  This is big, big stuff.  Things that we need everyone's opinions in order to move on.

We can make lists of options and possibilities... but, I don't think that the game can really move forward on any fronts until we have the full group back here... if it were just one person-- it wouldn't be a big deal.  But, it is two and I think it is unfair to cut them out of this decision making process.

I think the Jaine thing can be moved on-- I don't think it is all important to have the discussion with her IC... we are just going to tell her what her options are and she's going to make a decision.

So far as the rebellion in the North goes, we need Greg here to make those decisions.  Even if he was here, we'd need to do it in session b/c he doesn't participate in email or message board conversations.

However actual scouting and negotiations with Big Blue are something that everyone should be a part of, I think.  Now, if I am wrong and no one else agrees-- fine we can move on.  But, I think at this point, aside from simple information gathering through scrying, we should wait for the love-birds to return home.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 9, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Very nice. Looks like we may be hooking up with some interesting people, to say the least. So what's the plan? Can someone sumup what we have agreed upon so far?



(Pretend, for a moment, that I am a PC) 

As Liz has noted, there isn't a lot that you have agreed upon, in total. 

As it stands, you have a bunch of related problems, all tied up in a knot. If you pull the right cord, it might start to unravel, but knowing which cord to pull is, of course, tough. But that's what makes it a good story. 

Your problems: 

The Queen is pregnant, and her actions in the next few weeks will do nothing less than shape the very foundations of any kingdom that survives her. The status of her heirs hangs in the balance. 

A representative of the Bluestar who happens to be identical to Archonus Arendorr has offered you the Lichlord's aid, assuming that an agreement between his lord and your Queen can be reached. The terms are as of yet unexplored. 

A representative of a rebellion _against _the Bluestar has appeared in Court, seeking aid from Archonus Bluestar, and failing that, from you. 

A large portion of the army currently holding Oceanus has debarked for the Isle of Mourning, seeking two of the thirteen spiritblades that are somehow essential to Tain's plan. 

Caer Albion is under siege, and on top of everything else, the people within have asked for your aid. 

I've already noted how they're all linked together in an earlier post. 

THE DEATHLANDS

As for a solution, I'd start with elimination of issues that cannot be dealt with simultaneously. The easiest pair of isses to focus on are the Bluestar/Rebellion angle. At face value, you're not going to be able to have your cake and eat it, too. You're probably going to have to pick one (although you might surprise me). 

What can each side offer you? 

The Bluestar can offer you the destruction of the Blades Tain needs, as well as a place to hide and protect the blades you do have in the mean time. He can offer you the use of at least one army you'll need to battle the forces directly and indirectly under his control, and he can presumably shed some light upon (and perhaps lift) the oath that prevents AB from helping you take care of another one of your problems - Jaine's pregnancy. But, even without the convenient husband angle, the Bluestar has a lot to offer you. 

The rebellion can offer you troops, although not in numbers strong enough to take care of the Bluestar, let alone the hundreds of thousands currently arrayed against you. They *might* be able to hide the blades, and they *might* be able to destroy them. However, you have no evidence save hope of either. 

As I see it, the only way to help the rebellion _and_ get what you probably need most is to perform a double-blind con of extraordinary magnitude. It has been suggested elsewhere that part of a deal with the Bluestar would be offering to "take care" of his rebellion, by bringing them into your service. In fact, the best plan would be exactly the opposite. If what Jansten says is true, you'd be better off offering to take the Bluestar out of the Rebellion's path, at least for now. 

Any of the Bluestar's forces working for you cannot be protecting the Bluestar or his interests. The more of his troops you can employ (and potentially expend) the better chances any rebellion in the North will have. In fact, while bringing down the ward would seem immediately disadvantageous to you, it probably couldn't hurt much, and would be more likely to result in the Bluestar's ultimate downfall than leaving him up there. In his realm, he is nearly a god. In yours, he is a powerful magician arrayed against forces you can hardly imagine. In a worst case scenario, you end up with one bad instead of two as he and Tain do battle. In a best case scenario, you end up with no bads, and a little clean up work. In all likelihood, the answer will be somewhere between, because regardless of the ultimate result, getting the Bluestar off of his power base will allow any rebellion a chance to solidify their hold on whatever they can gain before he returns (if he returns, at all). 

But, if we have to pick one, pick the Bluestar, since he might be able to save us from annihilation.  There's no way the Rebellion, no matter how powerful, can do that.

JAINE

If it were me, I'd make it brutally clear to Jaine that she's not likely to live through the birth of her children. A marriage to AB would probably cement an alliance with his faction, but that could have uncomfortable lasting consequences if the rebellion or Tain don't manage to eliminate Ol' Blue in the fighting. In all reality, her most realistic choices seem to be one of the two Archons, and despite the pricky political situation, she seems more likely to choose AB over AA, if only because she has been treated somewhat poorly. It's possible she could be returned to life after her children's birth, thus making the issue of which Archon she marries less problematic in a political sense, but more problematic in a personal one. 

I see two decent options: Have her marry AA, and hope she stays dead. Or, Have her marry AB, but create a fictional (if believable) relationship between him and the real Archonus. The first option requires cooperation from no one but the fates. The second requires AB's duplicity, which requires you to deal with the Bluestar anyway, as in the idea for the North. In option 2, AB is King, Jaine is Queen, and AA is still the Marquis of Sylvanus, an important political bargaining chip in any post-war world. Either way will fit, but they result in very different political landscapes. This decision is not purely yours, but you can certainly support one or the other. Whatever happens, Jaine's marital status is an important bargainign tool, and any action taken should strengthen your relationship with AB, because....

THE ISLE OF MOURNING

Any force on the Isle will be dealing with at least 2 hostile factions. The Draconids will be in a race to find and capture the blades, while the Guardians will be fighting against your forces and the draconids to protect them. You cannot commit large numbers of your own troops without leaving Hyrwl and New Oceanus very vulnerable, so you must seek help from elsewhere. 

The Bluestar's agreement and aid must be sought, for it is here that you hope to expend the lives and unlives of whatever troops he already has south of the Wall. With some of the Bluestar's troops this far south, you have given Jansten's rebellion a chance of success, at least for a time. Even if you do not succeed in getting the blades yourselves, opposing the actions of the serpentblood here can by you some much needed time, so that you can try to take care of....

CAER ALBION

Currently attack, the denizens of the capital have asked for your aid. This is a uniquely beneficial opportunity since it may allow you to acquire 2 spiritblades, as well as hold the Royal Capital under the phoneix banner. Committing at least _some_ of your own troop is probably unavoidable, but acquiring mercenaries to aid in holding the city is probably an excellent idea. After determining how many will be needed for whatever plan you do develop to aid Caer Albion in particular, they need to be quickly hired, briefed, and magicked into the walls of the Capital. You have some spells at your disposal that might help, but since you should have acquired the Bluestar's agreements before moving on to this point, his mastery of the arcane might be able to help you move troops more quickly. 

...

As you can see, all of the problems are tied together, and I just picked a place to start and started unravelling. This is far from the only way, and is probably not be the right way. 

But, I thought it might help to see somebody walk through the process of prioritization and selection and see what we came up with. Almost all of the above are goals, with plans required to achieve them - but they are a _unified_ set of goals, and that's the step you need to get to now.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 9, 2004)

The first of my replies--  I'll get to everything eventually...

But, so far as Jaine goes... I think we can simply say that we have made it brutally clear that she will die in childbirth and explain to her the options she has.  We will do what we can to bring her back-- if she chooses to come back with the "make out and bring her back to life" spell... 

but, at this point, it is no longer something the PCs can control-- it is up to her... and, as such, up to the DM.  (Unless AA does something incredible).


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## The_Universe (Nov 9, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> The first of my replies--  I'll get to everything eventually...
> 
> But, so far as Jaine goes... I think we can simply say that we have made it brutally clear that she will die in childbirth and explain to her the options she has.  We will do what we can to bring her back-- if she chooses to come back with the "make out and bring her back to life" spell...
> 
> but, at this point, it is no longer something the PCs can control-- it is up to her... and, as such, up to the DM.  (Unless AA does something incredible).



 That's fine.  One of the things I do want to know, however, is which Jaine solution the group prefers?  Assume she asked about what the Circle thinks the best path is...


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 9, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> That's fine.  One of the things I do want to know, however, is which Jaine solution the group prefers?  Assume she asked about what the Circle thinks the best path is...



 The best solution is to have her marry AA or AB (under the correct terms, anyway) and hope with all hope that she makes it through the birthing process or that she can come back...

At least, that's what I think.


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## Xath (Nov 9, 2004)

And really, she should only marry AB if he's free of his oath to the bluestar.  After all, if Jaine dies and doesn't come back, we don't want to lead a rebellion that is under the thumb of the lichlord.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 9, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> And really, she should only marry AB if he's free of his oath to the bluestar.  After all, if Jaine dies and doesn't come back, we don't want to lead a rebellion that is under the thumb of the lichlord.



 I agree... (see my original post).

We need to have the "terms" of that marraige be free of Big Blue's control.... which is why, in a perfect work, AA would marry her... but, that's probably a lost cause.  It would take an act of God to get her to marry him, now.

Maybe we just need to ask AB what happens if he breaks his oath.


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## The_Universe (Nov 9, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> we don't want to lead a rebellion that is under the thumb of the lichlord.



Just curious - what's the worst case scenario if AB does become king, and is still bound to the Bluestar.  A best case?  

What about the same for if he's released from his oath?  

If the worst case is livable, it might be a a good option, regardless...

AB's loyalties only matter if you win the war in the first place.


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## The_Universe (Nov 9, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I agree... (see my original post).
> 
> We need to have the "terms" of that marraige be free of Big Blue's control.... which is why, in a perfect work, AA would marry her... but, that's probably a lost cause.  It would take an act of God to get her to marry him, now.
> 
> Maybe we just need to ask AB what happens if he breaks his oath.



 He won't break his Oath, because he understands the value of promises.  

Also, because he is LN.  But story-wise, it's the above.


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## Xath (Nov 9, 2004)

We'd need to arrange for his freedom in some terms of negotiation with Big B.


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## Archon (Nov 9, 2004)

*Comming to a conclusion*

i would like the simplest of solutions. Jaine to marry Archon. we know where his loyaties lie and it doesn't take dealing with the evil Lord of Death to make it happen. we want an awful lot from the Bluestar. what are we willing to give him? he'll want something for his assistence. and the more we ask for the more we'll have to give. maybe not now, maybe not tommorrow, but eventually. 
Archonus just wants his children to be happy and for the kingdom to be strong. the queen is being very stuborn, but hey, it's her kingdom. he'd rather The Prince of the North not be wed to a Queen on her death bed, but if everyone else wants it and the DM wants it then i guess it will happen. 
anyway, we need a final answer. which means we need everyone to cast their vote. mine is not not entirely without bias i understand but cast my vote for "Jaine sucks it up and marries AA."
mik


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## Archon (Nov 9, 2004)

*Comming to a conclusion*

i would like the simplest of solutions. Jaine to marry Archon. we know where his loyaties lie and it doesn't take dealing with the evil Lord of Death to make it happen. we want an awful lot from the Bluestar. what are we willing to give him? he'll want something for his assistence. and the more we ask for the more we'll have to give. maybe not now, maybe not tommorrow, but eventually. 
Archonus just wants his children to be happy and for the kingdom to be strong. the queen is being very stuborn, but hey, it's her kingdom. he'd rather The Prince of the North not be wed to a Queen on her death bed, but if everyone else wants it and the DM wants it then i guess it will happen. 
anyway, we need a final answer. which means we need everyone to cast their vote. mine is not not entirely without bias i understand but cast my vote for "Jaine sucks it up and marries AA."
mik


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 9, 2004)

I don't think Jaine is being stubborn.  If I were her, I wouldn't ever want to see AA again... let alone be forced to marry him.


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## Xath (Nov 10, 2004)

*It's like Star Wars all over again...*

Here's what I think we should do in any case.  I think that we should split the twins up, regardless of who Jaine marries.  I think the son should stay with Jaine, and the daughter should go with AA.  

How do we explain Archon's sudden child?  Well, we know he's...potent.  So he had a baby, but the mother died in childbirth.  (which, coincedently is most likely actually going to happen)  Who's the mother?  That can be handled separately; ie. someone from out of town.  The woman won't really matter, because the child will obviously be Archon's because she'll have the mark.

This way Jaine, as far as anyone currently knows, has only one child.  Together, she's a marked heir, and competition with her brother for the throne.  Apart, she's an immediate valid heir to the Sylvanus March.  The mark actually helps us here because it solidifies Archon's claim to paternity.  This also puts her in line for the throne in a much clearer way than if she had been the daughter of the Queen.  Jaine has an uncontested heir, unmarked, and Archon has a daughter in a place where her mark won't matter so much.  

If Jaine dies, and AB proves a less than ideal monarch, the child can still become Queen, and she's safely away from her fake father.  So she's insurance on several levels.  

Now obviously, Archon wouldn't start adventuring with a papoose.  Since he happens to have a child who is so "coincedently" the same age as Queen Rhynn's son, well, aren't they just the perfect playmates!  We just need to insure that they don't get married some day...ew...

Also, the birth of a daughter to the Rhynn/Arendorr adds another "last daughter of Oberon" to the prophecy relating to the downfall of the Bluestar.  That gives us 4: Jaine, Jaine Jr., Andere, and Archon's sister.

EDIT:  Also, for the time being, since AA is currently in the service of Jaine, both children would be housed in Hyrwl, giving both AA and Jaine the ability to spend time with them both.


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## Xath (Nov 10, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Just curious - what's the worst case scenario if AB does become king, and is still bound to the Bluestar.  A best case?
> 
> What about the same for if he's released from his oath?
> 
> ...





Well, the worst case scenario if AB was king and bound to the bluestar would be the Bluestar's legal claim to having the falcon kingdom in his pocket.  True, this possibility may bring him over to our side with more support, but I don't think we're freeing this kingdom from one evil just to put it under the dominion of another.

The best case scenario if AB is still under Big B's control is...if the Bluestar decides he doesn't want to be evil anymore and goes on a permanent second honeymoon on another plane leaving us to mind our own business.  I'm not saying AB would make a bad king of his own volition, I'm just saying having him under the control of the bluestar makes our mission seem a bit hypocritical.

Best case if he's released from his oath?  Jaine comes back to life, they fall in love and live happily ever after.  We win the war, no issue.  Everyone's happy, and...the streets are made of chocolate.  Seriously?  If AB is freed from Big Blue, he's got as much claim as anybody and he seems qualified.  

Worst case if he's released from his oath?  It's found by the noble's council that he's not the real Archon or that the boy child isn't his.  Then we have a legitimacy problem all over again.  (see previous post and alternate legitimacies aka.  this is when we bring the girl in)


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Here's what I think we should do in any case.  I think that we should split the twins up, regardless of who Jaine marries.  I think the son should stay with Jaine, and the daughter should go with AA.




It could work... however, I don't know that it's a con I would like to mess with, though... we may just want to have her raised someplace far away and not have to worry about lying to a whole bunch of people... 

However, I hear the Jade Forest Acad. does an excellent job of raising young girls.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> i would like the simplest of solutions. Jaine to marry Archon. we know where his loyaties lie and it doesn't take dealing with the evil Lord of Death to make it happen. we want an awful lot from the Bluestar. what are we willing to give him? he'll want something for his assistence. and the more we ask for the more we'll have to give. maybe not now, maybe not tommorrow, but eventually.
> Archonus just wants his children to be happy and for the kingdom to be strong. the queen is being very stuborn, but hey, it's her kingdom. he'd rather The Prince of the North not be wed to a Queen on her death bed, but if everyone else wants it and the DM wants it then i guess it will happen.
> anyway, we need a final answer. which means we need everyone to cast their vote. mine is not not entirely without bias i understand but cast my vote for "Jaine sucks it up and marries AA."



Heh - Mik's first double post (as far as I know). Congrats. 

As a matter of fact, they're both being stubborn. The Queen's not willing to marry AA in the current situation, and as far as I know, Archon has made no offer or effort to alter that situation to make it less loathsome. 

And you're going to have to deal with the Bluestar, anyway, unless you're giving up completely on the Isle of Mourning (or if you rise to heretofore unimagined heights of planning prowess).  It's not like he'll just go away if AB doesn't marry Jaine. 

As for the various marriage proposals from Archon, please remember that it's not really compromise if one party doesn't have to give anything up.   Nothing is impossible, but some things are VERY unlikely.  

"Would you like to eat this bucket of worms?"
"No."
"Okay...but what if I gave you a bucket of worms?"
"No."
"But...it's a bucket! Of worms!"
"No."
(continue ad infinitum)


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> EDIT: Also, for the time being, since AA is currently in the service of Jaine, both children would be housed in Hyrwl, giving both AA and Jaine the ability to spend time with them both.



Seperating the twins is, in general, a great idea.  I wish I had thought of it.   

Nonetheless, Keeping Jaine and her daughter in the same place seems like it would make them both an easy target, particularly for those aware of the prophecy involving Oberon's last daughter.  

Archon adventuring with a papoose is hardly ideal...but it might be necessary in order to keep her out from under the potentially (although not necessarily) dangerous influence of AB. It's not like an infant in the company of the Circle would be lacking for mommies.  

Hey - you could even buy Kaereth the same toys you buy her!   

Alternatively...



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> However, I hear the Jade Forest Acad. does an excellent job of raising young girls.



Yes it does, although it is officially a royal institution, and thus could be dangerous on that front, since the child is obviously the daughter of a fugitive of the King's justice.  Furthermore, as I had previously characterized the place, they don't take infants...she probably has to be at least kindergarten age before they'd let her in.  

Nevertheless, it's as good a place to hide her as any, assuming it becomes necessary.  It might be a safer place than leaving her in Hyrwl, if her mark can be hidden or explained, anyway.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Yes it does, although it is officially a royal institution, and thus could be dangerous on that front, since the child is obviously the daughter of a fugitive of the King's justice.  Furthermore, as I had previously characterized the place, they don't take infants...she probably has to be at least kindergarten age before they'd let her in.
> 
> Nevertheless, it's as good a place to hide her as any, assuming it becomes necessary.  It might be a safer place than leaving her in Hyrwl, if her mark can be hidden or explained, anyway.




When Justice was taken in, she was younger than kindegarten age... as Kennon has said before, Justice was taken in at a *very* young age... so young that she has no memories of being anywhere but there.

DM says "Justice was a special case"... and, I'd say Baby Girl Rhynn is a special case, too.  Justice is more than willing to try to pull some favors and see if she can find a way to have the baby raised there... she may be young... but, there are people there that know Justice well and she will do all she can to be sure the baby is kept safe... 

I think it's a much better option than sending her to some wetnurse in Hyrwl or hauling her around with us as we adventure... unless Archonus is planning on giving up his career as an adventurer... at which point, they should just move far, far away.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Queen Doppelpopolis said:
			
		

> I think it's a much better option than sending her to some wetnurse in Hyrwl or hauling her around with us as we adventure... unless Archonus is planning on giving up his career as an adventurer... at which point, they should just move far, far away.



 For the record, totally OOC, I think the best option would be taking the infant adventuring. The scenes the rush through my head when I think about it are _awesome. _I mean, picture Archon fighting with a baby in one hand! How cool is that!?

However, IC, I realize its dangerous. The only IC argument for that that I can think of is that there's essentially no safer place on Aeres than with the Circle - they're among the most powerful warriors in the world, and they seem to have a pretty good survival rate, all things considered. 

But that's all I can think of. I wish I had a better reason, but I don't. 

EDIT: Liz just reminded me that as long as Archon stays lawful, he can take his child's pain, thus rendering the infant effectively invincible!


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> For the record, totally OOC, I think the best option would be taking the infant adventuring.  The scenes the rush through my head when I think about it are _awesome. _I mean, picture Archon fighting with a baby in one hand!  How cool is that!?




No. No. No.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> No. No. No.



 If you think Justice's breast plate is going to make hiding hard... just wait until there is a BABY.

BAD IDEA.  (see my sig... yeah.  It's the truth).


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## Archon (Nov 10, 2004)

*Obi Wan Arendorr?*



			
				 I think it's a much better option than sending her to some wetnurse in Hyrwl or hauling her around with us as we adventure... unless Archonus is planning on giving up his career as an adventurer... at which point said:
			
		

> huh. interesting idea. although probably not likely at this point.
> mik


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> EDIT: Liz just reminded me that as long as Archon stays lawful, he can take his child's pain, thus rendering the infant effectively invincible!




And let Xath die in a single round of combat?!  Not a good idea!!!


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

> Obi Wan Arendorr?



 I actually think it would be more like Bail Organa...but the idea is essentially the same.  



> And let Xath die in a single round of combat?! Not a good idea!!!



She would have to get better at staying out of melee range, yes.  



> If you think Justice's breast plate is going to make hiding hard... just wait until there is a BABY.
> 
> BAD IDEA. (see my sig... yeah. It's the truth).



Anyway, I'm not saying that baby-adventuring is PRACTICAL, I'm just saying it would be _interesting_, and would allow of you to show a side of your characters that have heretofore gone unseen.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Anyway, I'm not saying that baby-adventuring is PRACTICAL, I'm just saying it would be _interesting_, and would allow of you to show a side of your characters that have heretofore gone unseen.




A side of Justice that she wants to go unseen.  She is motherly enough without having a baby around.


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## Xath (Nov 10, 2004)

I think adventuring with a baby would be good for KoA the sitcom.  In normal circumstances though...


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

*Step 2, everybody join in!*



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> Well, the worst case scenario if AB was king and bound to the bluestar would be the Bluestar's legal claim to having the falcon kingdom in his pocket. True, this possibility may bring him over to our side with more support, but I don't think we're freeing this kingdom from one evil just to put it under the dominion of another.



I agree.  The salient question then becomes: is one these evils greater or lesser than the other?  If they are not exactly equivalent, you'd be better off choosing whichever will do the least damage, assuming damage is unavoidable.  What _does _Tain want? What does the Bluestar?    



> The best case scenario if AB is still under Big B's control is...if the Bluestar decides he doesn't want to be evil anymore and goes on a permanent second honeymoon on another plane leaving us to mind our own business. I'm not saying AB would make a bad king of his own volition, I'm just saying having him under the control of the bluestar makes our mission seem a bit hypocritical.



A bit, but it may be unavoidable.  That's why you have to ask these questions, and come up with answers.  In the absence of desirable circumstance, you are left to choose the only the _least undesirable_.  

Since none of the oath-releasing stuff is really bad, at all, I won't comment.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> I think adventuring with a baby would be good for KoA the sitcom. In normal circumstances though...



Just think Willow, but less retarded....(Yes, I am grasping at straws)



			
				Queen_Doppelpopolis said:
			
		

> A side of Justice that she wants to go unseen. She is motherly enough without having a baby around.



With a kid, all that motherliness would be justified! Think of it! :\


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## Xath (Nov 10, 2004)

While, if our goal was simply to defend the child, there would be no safer place than the circle, I agree.  But the circle willingly throws themselves into reckless situations time after time.  Adding a baby to the mix gives us one more thing to worry about in the middle of a combat situation.  Can Archon grapple with a baby on his back?  That's got to be dangerous.  Not to mention the attacks that take the pain doesn't work against.  I can't imagine that infants have super high fort saves.  Also, even if the mark is magical, the baby won't have a high enough con to absorb that many spell levels without leaking out fire.  

....leaking out fire....what are the stat's on using a baby as a ranged ray weapon?


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> ....leaking out fire....what are the stat's on using a baby as a ranged ray weapon?



Well, using the baby as a ranged weapon would be just like using any thrown weapon with which you are not proficient. 

You'd roll a normal ranged attack with a -4 penalty since a baby must be considered an exotic weapon (at least).  Babies are _tiny _which means they'd probably only do 1d3 or 1d4 + str mod. for damage.  On critical hits, I suppose the baby might splatter, thus dealing "splash damage" to adjacent targets.     

As for the Spellfire ray, such a thing can only be activated by the child, or automatically "bled off" when the child has absorbed too many spell levels. Since the baby will have less than 1 hit die, every spell she tries to absorb will automatically be shot off in a random direction. Targets standing in the path of her ray are treated as normal combatants, and are thus subject to a ranged attack at the child's bonus. 

Unfortunately, you can't "shoot" the baby like a gun, which is what I think you initially intended.


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## Archon (Nov 10, 2004)

*baby ray*

you can if you build a vice grip, harness thingy that holds the kids head pointing in one direction. that way you could cast into the kid and point her head towards the enemy.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

You mean like a harness and...druthers...?


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## Xath (Nov 10, 2004)

I thought spellfire was based off of Con score and not HD.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> I thought spellfire was based off of Con score and not HD.



 I think you're right.  Sorry.  My bad. 

Either way, it will be low for the infant!

All joking aside, though...I think the twins should be seperated, and I think a couple of ways to do that should be seriously examined.  Secondarily, I think we need to continue looking at the questions in Post #328, and come to a conclusion.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

*RE: Post #328*

*WORST CASE:*

So, if we beat Tain and the kingdom in is Big Blue's Pocket, so to speak, we fight that battle when it comes.  If we are the winners in our currently rebellion, we will have to fight with the Lichlord eventually... I think that that is unavoidable.

From what we learned with communing: If AB has no children the kingdom is not subject to the Bluestar's dominion.  Jaine and AA's children are not subject to the oath that AB has sworn.  And so, it comes down to whether or not we trust AB with the kingdom for the length of his reign.

If we can find a way to break the oath, that's all the better.  But, if we can't, what can Big Blue accomplish through AB during his reign as king?  (will need to ask him about that).

--------------------

*BEST CASE:* 

I'd like to think that everyone can be "saved" from the Dark Side... however, I think that Blue Eye is probably past that point.  If we are to use the Bluestar to do anything to our advantage, I think we need to bank on his Lawful side and make deals that can be manipulated later... the same with AB as king.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> So, if we beat Tain and the kingdom in is Big Blue's Pocket, so to speak, we fight that battle when it comes. If we are the winners in our currently rebellion, we will have to fight with the Lichlord eventually... I think that that is unavoidable.



Well, if at the end of the war the Bluestar is still imprisoned, you probably can avoid war with him, at least in any sense more drastic than the border skirmishes that happen already. If, however, he is released from his prison and nothing drastic changes, you'll want to fight him. 



> From what we learned with communing: If AB has no children the kingdom is not subject to the Bluestar's dominion. Jaine and AA's children are not subject to the oath that AB has sworn. And so, it comes down to whether or not we trust AB with the kingdom for the length of his reign.



What would make you think you can trust him? What makes you think you can't? What's the most likely, based on the evidence? Is there anyone you can ask that might have more information?



> If we can find a way to break the oath, that's all the better. But, if we can't, what can Big Blue accomplish through AB during his reign as king? (will need to ask him about that).



 What do you think he could accomplish? How different is it if the Bluestar is free? If he is still imprisoned? 



> I'd like to think that everyone can be "saved" from the Dark Side... however, I think that Blue Eye is probably past that point. If we are to use the Bluestar to do anything to our advantage, I think we need to bank on his Lawful side and make deals that can be manipulated later... the same with AB as king.



Just remember that some of you are lawful, too, which means any deal you make must be a deal you're willing to uphold...for at least as long as the Bluestar does. So, start thinking about things the Bluestar wants, and things that _you _want, so that you'll be ready to negotiate when the time comes. What are you willing to give? What aren't you? 

This is coming along very well.  Keep the questions and answers flowing, and eventually a plan will arise...


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## Xath (Nov 10, 2004)

> What would make you think you can trust him? What makes you think you can't? What's the most likely, based on the evidence? Is there anyone you can ask that might have more information?




I think we can trust AB to tell us the truth, if cryptically.  As far as I know, the questions he has answered have all been answered truthfully.  It's just getting him to answer the questions.  Also, Cawys may have some idea as to what an oath to the Bluestar entails.  He seems to not be bound by his anymore.  We should ask why/how.



> What do you think he could accomplish? How different is it if the Bluestar is free? If he is still imprisoned?




Well, AB has to follow any orders that the Bluestar gives him.  So effectively, the Bluestar would gain control of the kingdom.  If the bluestar is free, he can take direct action with his undead minions to control the ringed continent and Prydein.  If he's still imprisoned, his influence is limited to AB and whatever living minions he controls.


I think one of the things we need to determine is WHY AB is serving the Bluestar.  It might give us some insight as to what his oath entails.  He seems to be rather closed mouthed about this, so why not ask the next best thing; the other half of the doppleganger.  Let's ask AA what could possibly drive him to swear an oath to the Bluestar and what he would be willing to sacrifice.  Once we have narrowed down our base, we can focus on key questions, and perhaps unlock some of the mystery that is AB.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> I think we can trust AB to tell us the truth, if cryptically.  As far as I know, the questions he has answered have all been answered truthfully.  It's just getting him to answer the questions.  Also, Cawys may have some idea as to what an oath to the Bluestar entails.  He seems to not be bound by his anymore.  We should ask why/how.




Was Cawys ever bound to Big Blue by an oath?  Or was he just distributing the goods produced by him? 



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> Well, AB has to follow any orders that the Bluestar gives him.  So effectively, the Bluestar would gain control of the kingdom.  If the bluestar is free, he can take direct action with his undead minions to control the ringed continent and Prydein.  If he's still imprisoned, his influence is limited to AB and whatever living minions he controls.




AB may have an oath... but, he's not dumb.  If the orders Big Blue gives him are contrary to his alignment or his moral code, I do not think that he would follow them.  And so, I do not think that the entire kingdom would be under his controll... moreover, if he is made king, he will have another oath that would, possibly, contradict the oath to the Bluestar.

Additionally, he may be king, but he still has checks.  If he does a bunch of evil bad things, he ends up with a rebellion on his hands... he can't realistically simply listen to the orders of grandpop.

By the way, does AB still have his Talon tatoo?



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> I think one of the things we need to determine is WHY AB is serving the Bluestar.  It might give us some insight as to what his oath entails.  He seems to be rather closed mouthed about this, so why not ask the next best thing; the other half of the doppleganger.  Let's ask AA what could possibly drive him to swear an oath to the Bluestar and what he would be willing to sacrifice.  Once we have narrowed down our base, we can focus on key questions, and perhaps unlock some of the mystery that is AB.




Or we could all confront AB together... let him how know important it is for him to fill us in... the fate of the kingdom may rest upon it... I don't know if that depth has ever been expressed to him... it seems that when people talk to him it's all "you can't keep it all inside" or "stop being so freakin' broody"... we need to let him know just how important it is that he tells us everything and get it from him... 

(meta) if the potential destruction of the world rested on his *making* the oath, it should be enough to have him fill us in on the details OF that oath.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Well, if at the end of the war the Bluestar is still imprisoned, you probably can avoid war with him, at least in any sense more drastic than the border skirmishes that happen already. If, however, he is released from his prison and nothing drastic changes, you'll want to fight him.




Objective #1 when dealing with the Bluestar: Do not give him freedom.



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> What would make you think you can trust him? What makes you think you can't? What's the most likely, based on the evidence? Is there anyone you can ask that might have more information?




I think it is abundently clear that AB keeps his word.  He is probably the most trustworthy person in the whole universe... sure, he's made a deal with the devil... but, that deal has not broken his ability to keep the promises that he makes.



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> What do you think he could accomplish? How different is it if the Bluestar is free? If he is still imprisoned?




If, somehow, the Bluestar were to get out, we need to be sure that he's not feeding on the souls of the living.  He's a guy that likes order and stability... he just has no regard for the life of humanity... and, really, why place value on what you have overcome?  In many ways, I can understand his twisted logic... he beat death.

... so, I really don't know what Big Blue would do if he got out... Would have to ask him.



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> Just remember that some of you are lawful, too, which means any deal you make must be a deal you're willing to uphold...for at least as long as the Bluestar does. So, start thinking about things the Bluestar wants, and things that _you _want, so that you'll be ready to negotiate when the time comes. What are you willing to give? What aren't you?
> 
> This is coming along very well.  Keep the questions and answers flowing, and eventually a plan will arise...




What do we want?
(1) Troops
(2) Big Blue to NOT control the kingdom
(3) The secrets of how to destroy the blades
(4) A safe place to keep the blades until they can be destroyed

What does he want?
(1) Freedom?
(2) The open practice of wizardry?
(3) I just don't know... I left my evil hat in my other pants...


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## Xath (Nov 10, 2004)

Things that would be nice to have:
1) AB's freedom from his oath
2) Gyan Thunderheart's freedom.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Things that would be nice to have:
> 1) AB's freedom from his oath
> 2) Gyan Thunderheart's freedom.



 Next time we see Gyan, I'll just send him to heaven with my holy light... and, if the ol' Blue says anything... I just say... I turned it on accidentally... "Tee, hee.  It slipped"  *looks innocent*


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Was Cawys ever bound to Big Blue by an oath? Or was he just distributing the goods produced by him?



A little bit of both.  Cawys was bound by an oath, _and _profiting from the relationship.  



> AB may have an oath... but, he's not dumb. If the orders Big Blue gives him are contrary to his alignment or his moral code, I do not think that he would follow them. And so, I do not think that the entire kingdom would be under his controll... moreover, if he is made king, he will have another oath that would, possibly, contradict the oath to the Bluestar.



Not all oaths are magically binding, and no matter one's alignment, those kinds of oaths tend to have more staying power.  As has apparently been the case already, if orders are given that contradict one's moral code, it's just as likely that the moral code will change to fit the order, at least to a degree.  



> Additionally, he may be king, but he still has checks. If he does a bunch of evil bad things, he ends up with a rebellion on his hands... he can't realistically simply listen to the orders of grandpop.



 That's true.  If things are too bad, you can just depose him.  However, you can expect the Bluestar to be a little more subtle. 



> By the way, does AB still have his Talon tatoo?



 Yes.



> Or we could all confront AB together... let him how know important it is for him to fill us in... the fate of the kingdom may rest upon it... I don't know if that depth has ever been expressed to him... it seems that when people talk to him it's all "you can't keep it all inside" or "stop being so freakin' broody"... we need to let him know just how important it is that he tells us everything and get it from him...



 That could work, although he may be aware of the implications of his actions/inactions already.  



> (meta) if the potential destruction of the world rested on his *making* the oath, it should be enough to have him fill us in on the details OF that oath.



That's true.  But he's a character, not just a plot device, so he may have somewhat complicated (and occaisonally conflicting) desires.  He obviously finds the subject somewhat painful on a personal level, and dangerous in a larger sense, or else you'd already know.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Objective #1 when dealing with the Bluestar: Do not give him freedom.



Before you decide to firmly hold to that, remember that keeping him trapped in the north limits what he can do _for _you as well as what he can do _against _you.  You can bet that he'll be nothing but flowers and candy until the war against Tain is won, and perhaps even after that.  But you're rebellion is hardly his first concern.  His initial offer seems to imply that he hates Tain as much (if not more) than you do.   



> I think it is abundently clear that AB keeps his word. He is probably the most trustworthy person in the whole universe... sure, he's made a deal with the devil... but, that deal has not broken his ability to keep the promises that he makes.



That would seem to be the case, yes. He still seems to be bonded to Jaine, which means as of so far, the two oaths have not conflicted.   



> If, somehow, the Bluestar were to get out, we need to be sure that he's not feeding on the souls of the living. He's a guy that likes order and stability... he just has no regard for the life of humanity... and, really, why place value on what you have overcome? In many ways, I can understand his twisted logic... he beat death.



 Anyone who's been in the North for any length of time should be able to tell you if he's feeding on the souls of the living, or not.  That kind of thing ought to be obvious to anyone that's observed the state of life and unlife in the North.   



> What do we want?
> (1) Troops



How many?  What kinds?  Are you willing to use undead?  Monsters?  He seems sure to offer you at least some, but he won't be picky as to what he sends you if you leave it up to him, probably.  



> (2) Big Blue to NOT control the kingdom



 That's a good holding point, but if you have to choose between Big Blue and Tain, which would you choose?  Which one is worse?



> (3) The secrets of how to destroy the blades



 Do you need the secret, if he'll destroy them?  Is a better idea to simply ensure that they will be destroyed?  



> 4) A safe place to keep the blades until they can be destroyed



 He has already offered that, albeit for the one blade you've "traded" him.   



> What does he want?
> (1) Freedom?



Almost certainly.  Expect him to ask for this, and be prepared to have an alternative that he'll accept on the table.  



> (2) The open practice of wizardry?



 Almost certainly.  When he was alive, he fought for the right of people born without arcane power to study magic.  He brought a brief renaissance of thought to the kingdom, spoiled by his own fall to darkness, and the fact that he took so many of his students with him when he fell.  

Great set of analysis.  Keep it coming.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Things that would be nice to have:
> 1) AB's freedom from his oath
> 2) Gyan Thunderheart's freedom.



 If you really want to get these things, you must be prepared to give something in order to get them.  What do you have that you're willing to "pay" for these things?  

Remember also that you do not really know what binds Gyan - You know a lot more about AB's oath than whatever it is that keeps Gyan alive.  He's not a zombie, a ghoul, or a lich...he must be something else...but what?

Regardless, freeing him will almost certainly end in nothing more than his permanent death.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Well, AB has to follow any orders that the Bluestar gives him. So effectively, the Bluestar would gain control of the kingdom. If the bluestar is free, he can take direct action with his undead minions to control the ringed continent and Prydein. If he's still imprisoned, his influence is limited to AB and whatever living minions he controls.



What do you suppose he would do with whatever degree of control he might have?  If he has a lot?  A little?  




> I think one of the things we need to determine is WHY AB is serving the Bluestar. It might give us some insight as to what his oath entails. He seems to be rather closed mouthed about this, so why not ask the next best thing; the other half of the doppleganger. Let's ask AA what could possibly drive him to swear an oath to the Bluestar and what he would be willing to sacrifice. Once we have narrowed down our base, we can focus on key questions, and perhaps unlock some of the mystery that is AB.



Could be.  Good idea about asking AA.  But remember that part of his oath may be that he cannot speak of its details.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

Would the Bluestar accept a conditional, temporary alliance?  Would he agree to a "we are allies until our enemy is defeated" deal?


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Would the Bluestar accept a conditional, temporary alliance? Would he agree to a "we are allies until our enemy is defeated" deal?



He might, but I would not suspect it to be terribly likely.  As someone who is effectively immortal, he's more likely to push for something with increased permanence.  He's got all the time in the world, and even if Tain wins *your* war, The Bluestar still has his kingdom.  He's probably not motivated by mere concern for the sanctity of the throne.  

The closest I would expect would be a period where he might agree not to work against you.  Something along the lines of, "After we win, I promise I won't act against the Phoenix Throne for five human generations, and they cannot act against me until then, either" or something like that _might_ be possible, and is a great deal more likely than him agreeing to aid you for the privilege of having you turn against him immediately.  The kind of short term alliance you propose appears to benefit him in no way, shape, or form.  

It's back to the bucket of worms thing.  What's he going to get out of the deal? 

"How about you give us candy, and we give you a bucket of worms."
"No."
"Okay...how about we give YOU a bucket of worms, and you give US some candy?"
"No."
"Wait...I have a better idea...You'll TAKE this bucket of worms, and then we'll TAKE the candy...?"


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## Archon (Nov 10, 2004)

*Charmed by the Devil*

Dealing with the Bluestar in any fashion should be limited to absoulte necessity. We have troops and soon we'll have some mercenaries. Yes, our forces are weak when compared to Tain's but are we willing to unleash an undead horde against living soldiers just doing their job (eventually we will have to face Tain's human troops). 
We walk a dangerous path as allies of the Bluestar. Any deal we make will be a costly one.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> Dealing with the Bluestar in any fashion should be limited to absoulte necessity. We have troops and soon we'll have some mercenaries. Yes, our forces are weak when compared to Tain's but are we willing to unleash an undead horde against living soldiers just doing their job (eventually we will have to face Tain's human troops).
> We walk a dangerous path as allies of the Bluestar. Any deal we make will be a costly one.



 This is true, Mik... we know that.  However, cryptic bits of wisdom aren't going to help us at this point... we're much much beyond that.

What would you suggest instead?  How would you complete all the objectives that are listed on this thread without making a deal with him of some sort?  

The cost will be high... but, in many ways, I think the benefit will be higher.
Through an alliance with him of some sort, we not only attain our goal of winning THIS war but weaken the Bluestar's forces for a war that will, if we beat tain, inevitable come.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> Dealing with the Bluestar in any fashion should be limited to absoulte necessity. We have troops and soon we'll have some mercenaries. Yes, our forces are weak when compared to Tain's but are we willing to unleash an undead horde against living soldiers just doing their job (eventually we will have to face Tain's human troops).
> We walk a dangerous path as allies of the Bluestar. Any deal we make will be a costly one.



 Are all of the Bluestar's troops the walking dead?

Furthermore, no matter who you emply as troops, soldiers "just doing their jobs" are going to end up dead.  On both sides.  

Yes, it sucks.  No, it's not possible to avoid it in the current situation (so far as I can see, anyway).  Even the draconids, twisted and evil though they are, are just doing their jobs, if you think about it.  

It's good to recognize that your forces are weak, but recongizing _how_ _weak_ they are should be a priority, as well.  Can you win the war with what you have?  Can you imagine a circumstance in which that is possible?  If so, what is it?  How can you make that circumstance a reality?  It would be great if you could do this without the Bluestar, and if you can come up with a way to do it, I think you should pursue it.  

But can you?  I know you can _fight_ the war without him, but can you _*win*_ the war without the Bluestar's help?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

We can attempt to pick the types of troops we are willing to use when dealing with Big Blue-- he has living servants, undead, and monsters.

And, to quote Kennon... we need to _fight dirty_ if we expect to win this war... if we've no problem with killing the forces that are "just doing their job" then why is it any different if its a monster?

I don't like the idea of using undead to fight our fights... but, we're between a rock and a hard place.  The mercs might be enough to win Caer Albion... but they are not enough to win the war... not by any stretch of the imagination.

We need to decide what we are willing to give-- and what we are willing to take from Big Blue... at this point, I think a deal with him is a necessity if we expect to win.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

Also-- if the Bluestar's forces start to fight the invading Lizardfolk forces, the king's cover is blown... he can no longer claim to "fight the good fight" because the Bluestar came to the "rescue" not the king's men.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> This is true, Mik... we know that.  However, cryptic bits of wisdom aren't going to help us at this point... we're much much beyond that.
> 
> What would you suggest instead?  How would you complete all the objectives that are listed on this thread without making a deal with him of some sort?
> 
> ...



 Liz says it as well as I would.  

This is precisely why I have asked you to really consider which of two evils is _worse_.  I am sure the world will appreciate your efforts no matter what happens, but if you lose this war, your unwillingness to partner with evil will not have mattered one whit.  There'll be no one left to remember your principaled stand.  

Is the answer to wallow in evil?  Absolutely not.  But can you choose to use a lesser evil against a greater one?  _*Absolutely*_.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Is the answer to wallow in evil?  Absolutely not.  But can you choose to use
> a lesser evil against a greater one?  _*Absolutely*_.




Exactly.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Also-- if the Bluestar's forces start to fight the invading Lizardfolk forces, the king's cover is blown... he can no longer claim to "fight the good fight" because the Bluestar came to the "rescue" not the king's men.



 That's true.  This war is also one of propaganda, and that might help you, at least a bit.


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## Archon (Nov 10, 2004)

We have what about 4,000 fighting men and with mercenaries we might be able to double this number. If we can persuade the noble council, the fair elves, Sylvanus, and Jansten's leaders to join us we could get more troops. If we can save Caer Albion that would be not only a sizeable force but an excellent defensive position. 
From there we pick our battles. Oceanus, Thanesport, wherever we go we keep the momentum and stay on the offensive.
The Bluestar's forces would be helpful, but i'm confident that we can fight and win this war without leaving our children a war to fight at the cost of our victory.
Instead of going with the easy solution let's see what we have and what we can get.
let's start off with what we have. Kennon can we get a complete list of all our fighting capabilities; troops, mages, beasts, siege weapons, number of fighting able but not yet trained men. A list of everything we can bring to bear on Tain.
Then let's see where we can get some more troops.
Jansten
Sylvanus
Mercs
The Fair Elves
The Nobles Populace and guard
Caer Albion
anything else?
Let's explore our other options instead of just going with the first thing offered to us. The Bluestar isn't going anywhere. Let's leave him as a back up. 
mik


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## Xath (Nov 10, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Also-- if the Bluestar's forces start to fight the invading Lizardfolk forces, the king's cover is blown... he can no longer claim to "fight the good fight" because the Bluestar came to the "rescue" not the king's men.





Let's just make sure this doesn't backfire on us.  If the bluestar's forces start fighting the Lizardfolk, the masses who havn't been affected by the war might think that the lizardfolk are the "good guys".  After all, everyone knows that the bluestar is a (not nice person).  Tain could then use that to gain open support for the lizardmen, giving them free access to different areas.  

Even if the lizardmen continue to invade, if they take over areas efficiently enough, neighbors won't know about it until it's too late.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 10, 2004)

From what I've heard, we've done what we can to convince the Nobles Council... (what's left of it, anyway)... and, it's not classical medieval.  The Nobels do not have armies or forces of their own.  So, I don't think we're getting any help there.

We've sent out a call for the elves... 

We have rounded up the troops we can, Mik.  That's what Jaine has been doing... and what we did in sending out the call for the elves and wizards... and by getting the Black Orcs.

For the most part, we are maxed out and all the mercs in the world aren't going to win this war for us...

(and, the more mercs we take away from the wall, the more likely it is that Big Blue can present us with a problem... and that's exactly what we need... the Bluestar to sneak up behind us while the king's forces are ahead of us.)


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## Archon (Nov 10, 2004)

*We Have Options*

i know we can get more troops. we just need to be more pro-active about. we need to make it a high priority. we sent out a call to the elves, ok, let's go beg them for help, if we can't convince someone we beg. I will agree that times are dire but i will not agree that we need to or should ally ourselves with the Bluestar. At least not yet. I know he can help but let's get as much help elsewhere first and if that's not enough then maybe we consider freeing the Bluestar to help us. 
we are very diplomatic (sans Archon), let's use it.


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## Xath (Nov 10, 2004)

If the bluestar gains any leeway on the wall, I think it's pretty obvious that he'll eliminate Tain's forces before he comes after us.


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## The_Universe (Nov 10, 2004)

*More Force Planning, or Why You Probably Need the Bluestar*



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> We have what about 4,000 fighting men and with mercenaries we might be able to double this number.



That's about right. I don't have the exact numbers with me. 



> If we can persuade the noble council, the fair elves, Sylvanus, and Jansten's leaders to join us we could get more troops.



The Noble's council doesn't really have any troops to offer, because Nobles no longer maintain their own personal armies. Their contributions to the defenses of the kingdom come in the form of taxes and the like, rather than in providing Knights for the King's service, as might have been true in an earlier age.

Sylvanus is a large city, with around 28,000 residents. About 80% of those are adults, but even with that many people, you're only talking about a full Company (240-250) of Guardsman, with about 1200 more trained militia. You might be able to add another 2000 able-bodied males without families to support. 

Any fair elves that you hope to bring to your cause that will be of any use, apart from the ones already there, would probably have to come from the Royal Army, or Mercenary forces upon which you already depend. At best, I think you can hope for some insubordination from within the King's ranks if they're forced to fight against you. You might get more, but that's all you can realistically expect. 

Jansten's rebellion can't be all _that_ numerous, since there just aren't that many living people in the North at all. But, let's be optimistic, and say we can get another 2000 troops from the north, and that some of them are mages.

That means that, in total, assuming you can hire 4000 mercenaries, you could bring your total forces up around 13-15000 men. That's a decent number of soldiers. However, even with those high and hopeful aims, it's still probably not enough to effectively oppose Tain, even if you're carefully choosing your battles. 

Here's why: Even with the King's Army of the Watch and the Army of Prydein having been sent above the wall to fight the Bluestar (and probably to have been defeated) the king controls the Army of the West and the Army of the East, each totaling approximately 76860 trained and armed men. That's right around 153,720 armed and armored soldiers, up against your (at MOST) 15,000 soldiers. Furthermore, that does not include the King's Navy or Marines, of which you have no comparable force. Still more, it does not include any of the Draconid forces, which are extremely numerous. In addition to being more powerful on an soldier-by-soldier basis, the draconids are not small in number. 

Oceanus alone saw an initial force of around 6000 troops of varying types. You know that a force of at least that size attacked Atur and Arutha's Forge, at least, and now another besets Caer Albion. That's AT LEAST another 24000 powerful troops that must be opposed. That brings the king's numbers to in excess of 175,000, while your unassisted forces remain at 15,000 - all of whom are outclassed and outpowered by the competition. And remember that that is only the forces that you KNOW of. 

Additionally, the draconids are able to convert captured civilians into troops quickly and easily, which means their number grow (rather than fall) with every victory, no matter how costly. The ShadowPath means you cannot win by numbers without assistance. 



> If we can save Caer Albion that would be not only a sizeable force but an excellent defensive position.



 Caer Albion does not have a large_ number_ of defenders (since the Army of Prydein was sent North) but those it does have are relatively powerful. It would be a boon, regardless. 



> From there we pick our battles. Oceanus, Thanesport, wherever we go we keep the momentum and stay on the offensive.



 Good idea, although with each battle, even the ones you win, you're losing troops and they're gaining them. 



> The Bluestar's forces would be helpful, but i'm confident that we can fight and win this war without leaving our children a war to fight at the cost of our victory.



 If you can make all of it happening without bringing down the ward, you won't have to fight the Bluestar, at all. But you'd still have to partner with him to win, I think. 



> Instead of going with the easy solution let's see what we have and what we can get.
> let's start off with what we have. Kennon can we get a complete list of all our fighting capabilities; troops, mages, beasts, siege weapons, number of fighting able but not yet trained men. A list of everything we can bring to bear on Tain.



I took care of most of this above, but....

You have 3 beasts (Ohtar, Yoshi, and Thane). 

You have about 300 mages, I think. I'll check when I get home. 

You have 4 steeldrake cannons, and no other siege weaponry. 

All of your fighting able men are either dead or hardened veterans. You'll need to wait a generation before you can get more, without getting men from other geographic areas. 



> Let's explore our other options instead of just going with the first thing offered to us. The Bluestar isn't going anywhere. Let's leave him as a back up.



 I think that's a mischaracterization of what the Bluestar has, but so be it. I've tried to answer as accurately as possible. At the very least, it should make things clearer.  

--Kennon


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## The_Universe (Nov 11, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> If the bluestar gains any leeway on the wall, I think it's pretty obvious that he'll eliminate Tain's forces before he comes after us.



 Yeah - Tain's a threat, at least sort of.  You're not.


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## The_Universe (Nov 11, 2004)

*Some clarification for a good idea*



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> i know we can get more troops. we just need to be more pro-active about. we need to make it a high priority. we sent out a call to the elves, ok, let's go beg them for help, if we can't convince someone we beg. I will agree that times are dire but i will not agree that we need to or should ally ourselves with the Bluestar. At least not yet. I know he can help but let's get as much help elsewhere first and if that's not enough then maybe we consider freeing the Bluestar to help us.
> we are very diplomatic (sans Archon), let's use it.



It's a very good idea to be more proactive on this stuff. But, bear in mind that you can't go talk to "the elves" any more than you can go talk to "the humans" or "the half-orcs." They are geographically disparate, and largely subsumed into the rest of the population of the falcon kingdom.

It's been over 4000 years since the great ring was first unified under one crown, so there's been a lot of time for populations to meld.


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## The_Universe (Nov 11, 2004)

Dwarves, on the other hand, do generally keep to their own company, if only because their preferred terrain is largely inhospitable to the other human and demihuman races.  They're really the only "good" sentient race that lives primarily underground, and so with the exception of councilors and traders, they have not been assimilated fully into the aggregate population.  

So, you probably _could_ talk to a significant portion of "the dwarves" if you knew where to look.  Khaz Modan was and is a good example.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 11, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Dwarves, on the other hand, do generally keep to their own company, if only because their preferred terrain is largely inhospitable to the other human and demihuman races.  They're really the only "good" sentient race that lives primarily underground, and so with the exception of councilors and traders, they have not been assimilated fully into the aggregate population.
> 
> So, you probably _could_ talk to a significant portion of "the dwarves" if you knew where to look.  Khaz Modan was and is a good example.




We already have a treaty with Khaz Modan, though...

DM, what does that treaty consist of?


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## The_Universe (Nov 11, 2004)

Troops, supplies, and steeldrakes (both for your rebellion and keeping it from Tain).  

There's a mutual protection clause in the treaty that says if Khaz Modan is attacked, The Queen will pledge all available resources to help them.  

Additionally, the dwarves recieve an extra seat on any Nobles' Council that arises from the rebellion, and Khaz Modan will become its own duchy, situated below whatever the Southern Hills (where the black orcs were) becomes.  

If the war is one, the kingdom will also have to build the dwarves a private harbor so that they can trade more of their good across the kingdom.  

Also, it's not explicit, but it is strongly hinted in the treaty that the Black Orcs won't be returning to their previous homes.


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## The_Universe (Nov 11, 2004)

*Mage count*



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> You have about 300 mages, I think. I'll check when I get home.



I just checked.  

You have 92 white mages of varying power levels, about 300 adepts (all level 1), about 100 red mages, and approximately 225 Blue mages.

That's 617 total, if I did the math right in my head, bringing your maximum total forces to about 15,617, which still leaves you outnumbered in excess of 10-1, and assumes that you can convince Jansten's rebellion to totally abandon their own cause in favor of your own.     

The calculations above for the king's forces do not include any of the following:

The Royal Navy
The Royal Marines
The Talons
The Apectan Order (largely loyal to the throne, as it is a _national_ church)
Any Draconid Forces not currently engaged
Any Draconid Forces engaged in places from which you are not recieving reliable intelligence.  

Hopefully, these additional numbers will help your planning in whatever form it may take.


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## The_Universe (Nov 12, 2004)

What? No comments or questions?  I thought the JC would be interested, at least!


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## Archon (Nov 13, 2004)

*Our rebellion needs more rebels*

If we can save Caer Albion we might be able to persuade the Talons, the Apectan church AND some of the kings generals (and thus their soldiers) to our side.
That would not only weaken the kings forces but bolster our own.
mik


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## Xath (Nov 13, 2004)

You're assuming that the leaders of these organizations are not corrupt.


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## Xath (Nov 13, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> You're assuming that the leaders of these organizations are not corrupt.



even if they are corrupt, we can be very....persuasive. Especially Archon when it comes to people of ill morals.


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## Archon (Nov 13, 2004)

sorry folks that last post from "Xath" was actually from me.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 13, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> even if they are corrupt, we can be very....persuasive. Especially Archon when it comes to people of ill morals.



 By then, it will be too late to save the blades on the Isle of Mourning... so, the benefits we recieve if we win Caer Albion are great... that has been long established... but, if we do not strike up a deal with the Bluestar the Isle of Mourning is, for the most part, out of the question


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## The_Universe (Nov 13, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> By then, it will be too late to save the blades on the Isle of Mourning... so, the benefits we recieve if we win Caer Albion are great... that has been long established... but, if we do not strike up a deal with the Bluestar the Isle of Mourning is, for the most part, out of the question



 Right - there's only one way to have your cake and eat it, too.  If you don't go with ol' Blue, you're giving up at least one sure thing for a mountain of maybes.


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## The_Universe (Nov 14, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> even if they are corrupt, we can be very....persuasive. Especially Archon when it comes to people of ill morals.



And remember that threats of bodily harm only function for a limited time after people leave your sight. Diplomacy, on the other hand, can be _forever_. Sad as it may seem, unless you're only dealign with people for a matter of hours, you're better off _dealing_ with the corrupt and evil, rather than threatening them so long as they have something you want or need.


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## The_Universe (Nov 14, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> If we can save Caer Albion we might be able to persuade the Talons, the Apectan church AND some of the kings generals (and thus their soldiers) to our side.
> That would not only weaken the kings forces but bolster our own.
> mik



That's true. But this has already been decided pages and pages ago - you're going to try to help Caer Albion. The relevent question has now become 1) How can you do it, and 2) How can you simultaneously achieve all of the myriad other things you need to do?


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

Firstly hello all-
Secondly tried to play some catch-up this morning 
Thirdly hope ya'll had fun a week ago


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

I think JC was rigth on with the whole make sure our goals are lined up first, and bravo to the leadership push 
I am in agreement with the list as those are our three major points and Kennon's ordering of them.
That being said::
We may not have time to sit down at a formal month long conference, but we do have time IC to at least start something with AB, Blue, and Jansten.

Just a possiblity, but ::We go North::
If we go North we can talk to the mercs, talk to Janesten people and talk to the blue guy.  Yes it will be dangerous, yes we probably shouldn't do it, but we can kill three birds with one trip and hopefully not kill ourselves.

We don't necessaryily have to go North of the wall, but do have to get near the wall.  Blue can't go south of it, but he can on his side get near the wall as well.  We pick a place along the wall and meet him there.  Some trust is required on both sides here- we agree to the six(?) of us and he can bring only five people with him... attempt to see things as even?


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

I believe that we'll be playing this weekend, as the Rollins will have returned from their glorious honeymoon!  

That being said, we'll be down one JC, which is, of course, _disappointing_.  

Is that right, gang?

Anyway, assuming we are playing this weekend, you guys should have at least a basic plan shaped up and ready, so we can have that perfect mix of plotline and action that means fun for everyone!  

The last few pages have had some great stuff, and some relevent dissent on Mik's part.  Regardless, assuming we play on saturday, you have *five days* to 1) come to consensus on goals 2) come to consensus on methods and 3) prepare to pursue them and 4) Go for it!

I know we all have different opinions on what to do, but consensus and _*unity*_ is absolutely key, here.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Firstly hello all-
> Secondly tried to play some catch-up this morning
> Thirdly hope ya'll had fun a week ago



 WELCOME BACK!!!!


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

I think we have to go North to:

#1-talk with Big Blue... we have a lot to ask him.

#2-Get the mercs.

#3-Talk with the people in the rebellion (but, before we do this, we need to decide what exactly we want from them).


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> I think JC was rigth on with the whole make sure our goals are lined up first, and bravo to the leadership push
> I am in agreement with the list as those are our three major points and Kennon's ordering of them.
> That being said::



Good to have some more confirmation.  Thanks!  



> We may not have time to sit down at a formal month long conference, but we do have time IC to at least start something with AB, Blue, and Jansten.



 OK - group - how do you want to start these things?  Some of them might be able to be taken care of electronically, and all will require at least some preparations/arrangements on your parts, as well as the leave of your Queen, for whom you'll be negotiating any and all of these things.

Secondarily, as I think has been noted above (but maybe not clearly), you need to decide what you're _*REALLY*_ willing to give and take before you get to the negotiating table.  What do you _need_ to make your plans work?  What do you _want_, but don't necessarily need?  Those questions have to be answered and agreed upon before you can start negotiating if you don't want to be taken advantage of.   



> Just a possiblity, but ::We go North::
> If we go North we can talk to the mercs, talk to Jansten people and talk to the blue guy. Yes it will be dangerous, yes we probably shouldn't do it, but we can kill three birds with one trip and hopefully not kill ourselves.



At least some of your negotiations will have to take place in the North, somewhere, even if not above the Wall.  I'd say that dangerous though it is, it's where your potential allies are, and so you're going to have to tough it out.    



> We don't necessaryily have to go North of the wall, but do have to get near the wall. Blue can't go south of it, but he can on his side get near the wall as well. We pick a place along the wall and meet him there. Some trust is required on both sides here- we agree to the six(?) of us and he can bring only five people with him... attempt to see things as even?



That might be a good idea - how are you going to start preparations, and where will you propose meeting?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

Right now we need to be doing 2 things:

-Convincing Mik/Archonus that a deal with Big Blue is the only way... which, I think it is.

-Determining what we have that Big Blue wants (that we are willing to give up.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I think we have to go North to:
> 
> #1-talk with Big Blue... we have a lot to ask him.
> 
> ...



 As usual, someone else says it better (and more succinctly) than I would or could.  

The only addition is that you really need to decide what you want from all of them.  Once you know that, it'll be easier to decide what order you need to meet with them in, etc.


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

*Places to meet- some ideas*

For Big Blue: If his castle and keep lie in the North west we meet in the North east part of the wall- we are taveling far from our place of safety and though not the same he should have to travel some as well- we are not going into his keep.
I would suggest away from civilazation so we have a convo with just us and his little group, and hopefully no easy possibility for eavesdropping.

For Mercs: ah.. along the wall? Or can we send out a call to those main groups, so if they can send a group to act and agree on thier usits behalf, to discuss a possible profitable arangement?  If this second option we think could work, we set it up as Mid North wall point perhaps?

For Janstens group: Set up to meet where they feel comfortable, which is in the North.  Set a meeting close to where we meet with the bluestar maybe, so we aren't traveling round his domain and possbly have to answer for that.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Right now we need to be doing 2 things:
> 
> -Convincing Mik/Archonus that a deal with Big Blue is the only way... which, I think it is.
> 
> -Determining what we have that Big Blue wants (that we are willing to give up.



Great! Get to it! 

*Mik:* lest you think the group is intolerant of ideas, just remember that the flipside of Liz's first task is to convince the group that a deal with the Bluestar is _not _the only way. Just remember that it's gotta be more than reminding us that dealing with ol' blue is bad.  

Commence with the arguments/consensus - we have a plan to make!


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> At least some of your negotiations will have to take place in the North, somewhere, even if not above the Wall. I'd say that dangerous though it is, it's where your potential allies are, and so you're going to have to tough it out.



I realize... and I was saying it may not be the absolute best solution but is a needed risk... the good it can do it is more the the possible bad.  It gets multiple things done at once.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> I realize... and I was saying it may not be the absolute best solution but is a needed risk... the good it can do it is more the the possible bad.  It gets multiple things done at once.



 Totally agreed.    I was just adding my voice to the chorus of agreement!


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> For Big Blue: If his castle and keep lie in the North west we meet in the North east part of the wall- we are taveling far from our place of safety and though not the same he should have to travel some as well- we are not going into his keep.
> I would suggest away from civilazation so we have a convo with just us and his little group, and hopefully no easy possibility for eavesdropping.



His keep is essentially in the center of the Deathlands, so both the west and eastern walls are equidistant from the homiest of his home turf.  



> For Mercs: ah.. along the wall? Or can we send out a call to those main groups, so if they can send a group to act and agree on thier units behalf, to discuss a possible profitable arangement? If this second option we think could work, we set it up as Mid North wall point perhaps?



Either would probably work, as far as you know.  They'd probably be willing to send envoys to meet with you anywhere, although the closer you meet to where they are right now, the faster they can get their envoys there.   



> For Janstens group: Set up to meet where they feel comfortable, which is in the North. Set a meeting close to where we meet with the bluestar maybe, so we aren't traveling round his domain and possbly have to answer for that.



That's certainly a matter of convenience for you, but no rebels are likely to meet with you in the same spot you plan to meet with the Bluestar (or where you have already met with the Bluestar) - they'd be trying to avoid him as if he were the plague, at least until they were ready to kill him.  I think you're going to want to have these two meetings as far from eachother as is possible.


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

1) Convincing Mik/Archonus that a deal with Big Blue is the only way... which, I think it is.
a) He hasn't given any counters that could work  but we all would love ta hear em 
b) The bluestar as all people can be redeemed- there is hope.  He was a great hero and honored friend of loyal, lawful, good other heroes.... OOC- Darth Vader perhaps to continue our SW parallel for things. 
c) We don't have to agree to side with him forever, but for now why not use him
d) if he is an ally we might be able to keep a better eye on what he is doing, what he knows, and better access to all those supplies he has.
e) We can possibly save all those suffering souls in the North but this alliance --more a stretch. If they come down to fight they can possible actually die instead of just being undead for centuries upon centuries serving him.  Those who are not undead can come out from under rule and possibly be able to choose if they go back.....
f) I know there's more...


2) Determining what we have that Big Blue wants:
a) To practice his craft freely, 
b) To let others practice it freely?
c) To get all the blades
d) To see Tain defeated
e) I know there's more


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> For Janstens group: Set up to meet where they feel comfortable, which is in the North.  Set a meeting close to where we meet with the bluestar maybe, so we aren't traveling round his domain and possbly have to answer for that.




I think a meeting with them should be far away from the meeting with the Bluestar... they are a small rebellion... if they draw too much attention, they will be crushed.

And, at this point, if one thing is to be sacrificed, I think the meeting with the rebellion is it.. they are important... but, right now, we need the Bluestar too much to chance violating an agreement with him by dealing with them.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

Big Blue wants freedom.  Are we willing to give it to him?


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

So possible places to meet (again) after Kennon's stuff:
The Bluestar- East side of Wall, away from Sylvanus
The Mercs- Whatever side/place is closest to them as stated above so they can get thier faster and easier. Is this West side? Not actually along the wall?
Jansten- We go to whatever place they have deemed the safest spot to speak/talk.  It sounded like it was in the North somewhere.


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I think a meeting with them should be far away from the meeting with the Bluestar... they are a small rebellion... if they draw too much attention, they will be crushed.
> 
> And, at this point, if one thing is to be sacrificed, I think the meeting with the rebellion is it.. they are important... but, right now, we need the Bluestar too much to chance violating an agreement with him by dealing with them.



IMO I don't think anything should talked about sacrificing or giving up on yet.  We need to at least talk to them.  Nothing may come from it, but we can't just not see them, just not say anything to them, just not help them!  They have asked we must try at the very least.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Big Blue wants freedom. Are we willing to give it to him?



*GREAT* question. Easily the most important to answer.

EDIT:I'm going to lunch.  I'll respond to whatever's here when I get back as time allows.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> IMO I don't think anything should talked about sacrificing or giving up on yet.  We need to at least talk to them.  Nothing may come from it, but we can't just not see them, just not say anything to them, just not help them!  They have asked we must try at the very least.



 We have limited time to deal with things in the North.  Jansten's rebellion can remain on the schedule.  But, if time is cut short, I don't think it is a necessity, right now.  

They want resources from us... we don't have anything we can give at the moment... though I think they are important, I do not want to risk screwing up the mission to the Isle by meeting up with the rebellion on Big Blues turf... he's a smart guy.  He knows what's going on in his frozen kingdom.


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

*Feed back?*

2) Determining what we have that Big Blue wants:
a) To practice his craft freely 
b) To let others practice it freely?
We have already agreed to this, honestly if he wants we can give him the same offer serve us for one year and we will let him practice and then grant him amnesty (I doubt he would take it) He would have the option of using his magics for good or for learning and studying purposes only. Once he broke the laws and rules we are then free to try and kill him.... I know there are lots of negatives to this, but as stated don't think he would take it anyways. He has too much to lose.

c) To get all the blades
We already gave him one blade, and though we sort of have another blade, it does have a soul and still isn't really 'ours'. Until something changes all the same reason's we came up with and agreed on fro igoshi (sp?) going to him will stand for all the other blades that we get control of. That something that could change is we build a maze, traps, house to hide a blade or any of the other options out there. Only with some way to hold it resonably well can we even think about holding any blade we rescue.

d) To see Tain defeated
Um yes we like this goal.

e) To be freed from the North
Going back to something Kennon said earlier... does he really want this? Right now he is the God of the North, the absolute ruler there. He very well may want this and I think we should consider it a very high possibility, but hey there is a chance he won't  
Personally, I don't see how freeing him would give us anything. He can command and pull strings from his Northern seat.  If the only way he will help is to be free? Then we start pushing time tables.  See below as to why, but for the current time I would have to say NO.

Also, remember that at some point we may be freeing him anyways. We have to destroy all the blades that includes the one in the wall. It may not bring down the magic, but hedging a very good assumtion it will. I'm not agreeing to, nor promoting that we agree to free him now, but just reminding us that it will happen eventually no matter what.

f) There's more....


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

*IC convos*

Sorry! I have been one of those slackers about getting things to the boards.  Put up a few, and will post any others I find that I haven't already


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## Archon (Nov 15, 2004)

*the other ways to skin a cat*

I understand everyone is eager to negotiate with the Bluestar and i do realize the benefits of an alliance with him, what i'm saying is "the ends never justify the means", and if we do make this alliance we are leaving our children a war to fight.
I belive that the blades on the Isle of Mourning can be sacrificed, and i also belive that we can convince some, if not all, of Tain's general's to defect. When all of humanity is threatend by the shadow of Tiamat, it should lend to a more unified resistence. We just need to spread the word to the right people. Therefore, we should focus on Caer Albion and not the North. 
Saving Caer Albion should be our number one priority because...
1.) Innocent lives are at stake.
2.) A victory there makes us National heroes and brings The Banner of the Phoenix into the Light.
3.)The Talons are based there and would make powerful allies
4.)There might be information there about destroying the Spirit Blades
5.)Once victory is established, convincing Tain's general's to defect should become easier
6.)Caer Albion provides an excellent defensive base of operations
7.)They asked for our help.
Now, i agree we need to go north and talk with Jansten's rebels and the mercs, but i think we should 'port to Caer Albion first and let them know help is on the way. We could take Fraerithier with us and while we are negotiating in the north Fraerithier could be conversing with Caer Albion's generals, gathering info and plotting our forces best tactical deployment.
We also need a method of transporting thousands of men from the north to Caer Albion do we have access to this kind of power?
-mik


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## Archon (Nov 15, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Big Blue wants freedom.  Are we willing to give it to him?




No.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> e) To be freed from the North
> Going back to something Kennon said earlier... does he really want this? Right now he is the God of the North, the absolute ruler there. He very well may want this and I think we should consider it a very high possibility, but hey there is a chance he won't
> Personally, I don't see how freeing him would give us anything. He can command and pull strings from his Northern seat.  If the only way he will help is to be free? Then we start pushing time tables.  See below as to why, but for the current time I would have to say NO.




I don't think it would "give" us anything directly... however, we have to take into consideration that it is something he wants.  It is a very important bargaining chip that we have on our side... we may be able to have *him* give us something in return for his freedom... and we have to figure out how we are going to get around it if the answer is "No."

I'm not saying it's a good idea... but, for the most part, we've already said that wizards can practice their craft... so, he has that... Tain is on his way to defeat... and we are going to be working for that regardless of Big Blue's participation...

So, outside of his freedom... what do we have to give him?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> what i'm saying is "the ends never justify the means"




This is a rather shocking statement for someone who left the queen alone and pregnant thereby sacrificing the legitimacy of our entire rebellion.

An alliance with the Bluestar weakens him... regardless of what happens right now, it looks like we will be fighting him when the current rebellion is done.  However, we can either choose to do it after his forces have been sacrificed on our behalf... or after he has spent an additional X years strengthening his forces while watching us kill ourselves off.

If we do not strike up a deal with him now, our children will be fighting an even stronger Bluestar...


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

More importantly, we can achieve all of the goals in Caer Albion while saving the blades at the Isle through an alliance with the Bluestar... 

All the while sacrificing the lives of monsters and undead--without sacrificing the lives of *our* own warriors.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> I belive that the blades on the Isle of Mourning can be sacrificed, and i also belive that we can convince some, if not all, of Tain's general's to defect.




How do you plan to get them to defect?  We couldn't get anymore than 4 of the Talon Redmages to defect and the king's generals are much more dedicated to him than the Redmages.


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

*Just throwing something out there.*



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> So, outside of his freedom... what do we have to give him?



A few stalwart soldiers who know the locations of the blades. 
He stays behind the wall commanding his army, we get the blades for him. We first get those not found and then steal back the others. We are the only ones truly in trade or agreement with him...?..... The one in the wall is the last to go.
Blue's forces go to the isle of mourning-- there are two blades there and it's in his interest to fight there and get those blades.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> IMO I don't think anything should talked about sacrificing or giving up on yet.  We need to at least talk to them.  Nothing may come from it, but we can't just not see them, just not say anything to them, just not help them!  They have asked we must try at the very least.



 Do you want to meet with them before or after you meet with Old Blue?  I'd suggest after, if only because what you agree to do with Old Blue may alter what you can offer them.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> 1) Convincing Mik/Archonus that a deal with Big Blue is the only way... which, I think it is.
> a) He hasn't given any counters that could work  but we all would love ta hear em
> b) The bluestar as all people can be redeemed- there is hope. He was a great hero and honored friend of loyal, lawful, good other heroes.... OOC- Darth Vader perhaps to continue our SW parallel for things.
> c) We don't have to agree to side with him forever, but for now why not use him
> ...



Excellent. I agree with all of the above. 




> 2) Determining what we have that Big Blue wants:
> a) To practice his craft freely,
> b) To let others practice it freely?
> c) To get all the blades
> ...



a)Almost certainly
b)Almost certainly
c)Definitely
d)Almost certainly.
e)Freedom, as has been mentioned, has got to be on that list. He may not actually want it, but then - he might.  You have to be ready to deal with it.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

L'Aurel said:
			
		

> So possible places to meet (again) after Kennon's stuff:
> The Bluestar- East side of Wall, away from Sylvanus
> The Mercs- Whatever side/place is closest to them as stated above so they can get thier faster and easier. Is this West side? Not actually along the wall?
> Jansten- We go to whatever place they have deemed the safest spot to speak/talk. It sounded like it was in the North somewhere.



My advice is to pick a region, and confine all of your meetings to that _area_, even if you don't have them all in the same _place_. Otherwise, you'll be expending bunches of magic and time travelling that you could be using to achieve your goals. As a result, I would suggest you pick one of the cities along the wall (Sylvannus or Ceridrawn) and do most of your meetings AROUND there. 



			
				L'Aurel said:
			
		

> IMO I don't think anything should talked about sacrificing or giving up on yet. We need to at least talk to them. Nothing may come from it, but we can't just not see them, just not say anything to them, just not help them! They have asked we must try at the very least.



 I don't think you should abandon them, but bear in mind that your rebellion, from your perspective at least, is more important than theirs. They've asked you for help, but if they win and you lose, you're still dead. At the very least, if you're going to help them, you're going to have to find a very roundabout way to do it.



			
				Queen_Doppelpopolis said:
			
		

> We have limited time to deal with things in the North. Jansten's rebellion can remain on the schedule. But, if time is cut short, I don't think it is a necessity, right now.
> 
> They want resources from us... we don't have anything we can give at the moment... though I think they are important, I do not want to risk screwing up the mission to the Isle by meeting up with the rebellion on Big Blues turf... he's a smart guy. He knows what's going on in his frozen kingdom.



 I think you're second paragraph really hits it on the head - you lack both the time and resources to really help them directly. If you're going to help them at all, it has to be _indirect, and *subtle*. _The comment about the Isle merely further illustrates the importance of meeting with the Bluestar before you meet with Jansten's rebel leaders. If you end up with no deal with the Bluestar, at least you have another chance, here. They'll still take you. If you meet with the rebels first, deal or not, you'll have jeopardized your chances with the Bluestar.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> 2) Determining what we have that Big Blue wants:
> a) To practice his craft freely
> b) To let others practice it freely?
> We have already agreed to this, honestly if he wants we can give him the same offer serve us for one year and we will let him practice and then grant him amnesty (I doubt he would take it) He would have the option of using his magics for good or for learning and studying purposes only. Once he broke the laws and rules we are then free to try and kill him.... I know there are lots of negatives to this, but as stated don't think he would take it anyways. He has too much to lose.



That's cool, and not a bad idea. He might take it, he might not, but it's not any more or less improper than anything you've already done...the only problem is that you're at best dubiously able to restrain him if he decides to break the rules. 



> c) To get all the blades
> We already gave him one blade, and though we sort of have another blade, it does have a soul and still isn't really 'ours'. Until something changes all the same reason's we came up with and agreed on for igosha going to him will stand for all the other blades that we get control of. That something that could change is we build a maze, traps, house to hide a blade or any of the other options out there. Only with some way to hold it resonably well can we even think about holding any blade we rescue.



Even if you can secure your blades, you still have to figure out what you're going to _do_ with them. The Bluestar has relayed a message through AB that they need to be _destroyed_. Can you do the same without him? 



> d) To see Tain defeated
> Um yes we like this goal.



At least you agree with him about _something.  _



> e) To be freed from the North
> Going back to something Kennon said earlier... does he really want this? Right now he is the God of the North, the absolute ruler there. He very well may want this and I think we should consider it a very high possibility, but hey there is a chance he won't
> Personally, I don't see how freeing him would give us anything. He can command and pull strings from his Northern seat. If the only way he will help is to be free? Then we start pushing time tables. See below as to why, but for the current time I would have to say NO.
> 
> Also, remember that at some point we may be freeing him anyways. We have to destroy all the blades that includes the one in the wall. It may not bring down the magic, but hedging a very good assumtion it will. I'm not agreeing to, nor promoting that we agree to free him now, but just reminding us that it will happen eventually no matter what.



He probably wants to be freed. If you're going to refuse, just remember that you have to have something equivalent to put on the table to gain his aid. What's that going to be?

If you decide you're actually willing to let him out (or assume that it's unavoidable) is there a better time to do it than now? Are you going to be the little Japanese army, shooting at Godzilla, or are you going to go ahead and let Godzilla and Mecha-ghidra fight it out? I know it's a silly example, but I think it get's the point across...


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

*But do the means justify the ends?*



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> I understand everyone is eager to negotiate with the Bluestar and i do realize the benefits of an alliance with him, what i'm saying is "the ends never justify the means",



I don't think it's any easier to negotiate with the Bluestar than it is to negotiate with Tain's generals, or anyone else for that matter.  The ends may not justify the means (although I would contend that they sometimes do), _but nor can the means justify the ends_.  If you don't ally and somehow _lose_, you'll have no children or grandchildren who can pat themselves on the backs for there forefathers and foremothers moral rectitude.  The road to hell is not paved with evil intention.  

Of course, if you manage to win without the help of the Bluestar, it will be cake and pinatas all around.  The question remains - is that _likely_?  _Possible_, even?   


> and if we do make this alliance we are leaving our children a war to fight.



While possible, this is not necessarily true.  You'll only leave your children with another war to fight if your terms are so stringent that they cannot allow for peace.  Furthermore, you must ask yourself if even if you win this war without the Bluestar, will there be no battles left to fight?  The lands of the Lord Miagi and Master Ryoko's people has been lost to the same thing that now plagues you. What of them?  Where have these draconids come from?  If you defeat them here and now, will they disappear?  

I could contend that the issue is not whether you leave your children to fight a war, but rather _what war _you leave them to fight, if your children have the luxury of living at all.  

In a place far from Aeres, the United States allied with the USSR, only to turn against its former ally and fight a war on a hundred battlefields that lasted over _30 years_.  Although Yosef Stalin was hardly an undead sorcerer, he was a bad dude.  There was (and is) a moral high ground.  The question you must ask is if it's _really_ worth walking.



> I belive that the blades on the Isle of Mourning can be sacrificed,



 Why?  What do you gain by sacrificing them? What do you lose? Does this serve your cause?  Does it serve _any_ cause?   



> and i also belive that we can convince some, if not all, of Tain's general's to defect. When all of humanity is threatend by the shadow of Tiamat, it should lend to a more unified resistence. We just need to spread the word to the right people.



 A noble goal - how are you going to do it?  Where _are _Tain's generals?  His soldiers?  They're apparently not defending Caer Albion...

It should be fairly obvious that the people of Caer Albion asked the King for help before they asked you.  So, simply showing up and saying, "bad things are happening" is unlikely to be enough.  I think I spoke of it above, but the best you can EX_P_ECT from the King's forces is that they won't follow orders if asked to fight you.  You might _get_ more, but it would be insane to depend on it.  



> Therefore, we should focus on Caer Albion and not the North.



 I think everyone agrees that Caer Albion is your number one priority.  All of the negotiations and growing plans mentioned above all revolve around making the preservation of Caer Albion _possible_.  You _can't _do it with what you have, without leaving your current home wide open for attack.  You _need _help.



> Saving Caer Albion should be our number one priority because...
> 1.) Innocent lives are at stake.



Agreed - no one's arguing that this needs to be done.  The arguments are about _HOW_.   


> 2.) A victory there makes us National heroes and brings The Banner of the Phoenix into the Light.



 It would help, yes.


> 3.)The Talons are based there and would make powerful allies



 Yes they would, although you can likely only expect aid and succor from the Talons you deal with directly, and even then only those who are stationed inside Caer Albion.  


> 4.)There might be information there about destroying the Spirit Blades



 No argument there.  You can probably get this, regardless of if you help.  


> 5.)Once victory is established, convincing Tain's general's to defect should become easier



 Why will this make it easier?  You've already pushed back a draconic army, and they haven't come calling.  How does this change the case you already have?  Furthermore, I'm not sure you know if Tain's generals are there.  The army of Prydein and its general is usually based in Caer Albion, but they were sent North months ago to fight the Bluestar. If they've not been slaughtered whoselale, they're probably up near or above the Wall.   


> 6.)Caer Albion provides an excellent defensive base of operations



 It sure does, but you can't simultaneously defend Caer Albion and Hyrwl/New Oceanus with what you have, as far as I know.  You need help.  Mercenaries are a start - where are the rest?


> 7.)They asked for our help.



 Yes they did.  And you're _going _to help them.  


> Now, i agree we need to go north and talk with Jansten's rebels and the mercs, but i think we should 'port to Caer Albion first and let them know help is on the way.



Not a bad idea.   







> We could take Fraerithier with us and while we are negotiating in the north Fraerithier could be conversing with Caer Albion's generals, gathering info and plotting our forces best tactical deployment.



 Frarathir's not going to make a plan for you.  Think of him as a guy who'll pass along orders and do some to the dirty work for you, but no more.  He's also not much of a diplomat, which you should recall from before.  He believes in the Archonus school of persuasion, and that alone (Freckles, anyone?).  



> We also need a method of transporting thousands of men from the north to Caer Albion do we have access to this kind of power?
> -mik



You have some portal stones, as well as access to spells like _Lesser Gate_.  That's what I can think of. 

You've done an admirable job of reminding us why Caer Albion is important, but I don't think that's ever been in question.  The thing that still has to be answered is this: 

*If you're not going to use the Bluestar, what and who are you going to use, and how are you going to get them?*


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Queen_Doppelpopolis said:
			
		

> So, outside of his freedom... what do we have to give him?



 Another million dollar question. 



> An alliance with the Bluestar weakens him... regardless of what happens right now, it looks like we will be fighting him when the current rebellion is done. However, we can either choose to do it after his forces have been sacrificed on our behalf... or after he has spent an additional X years strengthening his forces while watching us kill ourselves off.
> 
> If we do not strike up a deal with him now, our children will be fighting an even stronger Bluestar...



And you will be even weaker, having expended your resources alone to fight the serpentblood.  It's a double whammy. 

If you truly believe that war with the North is inevitable, then you're better off loosing his forces completely now, so that you can have a chance to defeat him later.   



> More importantly, we can achieve all of the goals in Caer Albion while saving the blades at the Isle through an alliance with the Bluestar...
> 
> All the while sacrificing the lives of monsters and undead--without sacrificing the lives of *our* own warriors.



 That's how I see it, anyway.  But I let the story goes where it goes, and the dice fall where they may. 



			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> A few stalwart soldiers who know the locations of the blades.
> He stays behind the wall commanding his army, we get the blades for him. We first get those not found and then steal back the others. We are the only ones truly in trade or agreement with him...?..... The one in the wall is the last to go.
> Blue's forces go to the isle of mourning-- there are two blades there and it's in his interest to fight there and get those blades.



 The blades are a good start, but may not be equivalent to his freedom.  Expect him to frame it in seemingly (at least) beneficial terms - he can only bring some of his resources south to help you so long as he is imprisoned.  Weapons and his less-than-alive servants (even constructs) cannot pass south of the wall in any number, so he can give you armies, but no equipment....unless, of course, the wall (and the ward) comes down...


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> The blades are a good start, but may not be equivalent to his freedom.




So, here's my fear: giving him the blades somehow gives him a way to get past the wall.

However, we may be able to have that fear taken care of in another round of Communism?


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Lastly, do we want to set up another commune time?  A way to talk to Jaine about the current situation electronically?


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> So, here's my fear: giving him the blades somehow gives him a way to get past the wall.
> 
> However, we may be able to have that fear taken care of in another round of Communism?



 That's possible, but you don't know how likely.  Communing certainly can't hurt.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Lastly, do we want to set up another commune time?  A way to talk to Jaine about the current situation electronically?



 I think we can assume that Xath, Justice, and L'Aurel explained the situation to Jaine.  We need to be moving forward... and, that's something we can check off of our list.

Leave the decision in her hands.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

I'm all for Communing to discover some answers, though.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I think we can assume that Xath, Justice, and L'Aurel explained the situation to Jaine. We need to be moving forward... and, that's something we can check off of our list.
> 
> Leave the decision in her hands.



Not just about her predicament - the other stuff, as well. She's the Queen, she needs to know what you're thinking/planning.

EDIT: If I set up a convo in the IC thread or over Gmail, and declare that "everyone" is in the room, can we start hammering this stuff out? The pregnancy thing remains an issue, but it won't be/shouldn't be the sole focus.  

Is that agreeable?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Not just about her predicament - the other stuff, as well. She's the Queen, she needs to know what you're thinking/planning.
> 
> EDIT: If I set up a convo in the IC thread or over Gmail, and declare that "everyone" is in the room, can we start hammering this stuff out? The pregnancy thing remains an issue, but it won't be/shouldn't be the sole focus.
> 
> Is that agreeable?



 That'll work... I'm leaving right now... so, it would be best for me if we started it tomorrow.

**Let's just get the pregnancy thing figured out as soon as possible.  It's been on the table for far, far too long and there's so little *we* can do about it... it's really your decision, now Kennon.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

*Hint Hint*



			
				Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> **Let's just get the pregnancy thing figured out as soon as possible. It's been on the table for far, far too long and there's so little *we* can do about it... it's really your decision, now Kennon.



As I have said before, everything is connected. She believes in her kingdom, but she does not want to marry Archonus Arendorr, unless something big changes there. She *might* be willing to marry Archonus Bluestar so long as she had a reasonable guarantee that at least one of her children would be out of his influence, and might be *more* fond of the idea if she was getting something more than a fake father and real husband out of the deal. 

Essentially, she recognizes what might be asked of her to finalize any deal with the Bluestar (or with Jansten's rebels), and doesn't want to decide anything out of hand that will conflict with that. 

You can get into more details IC, if you'd like. I'd prefer, for story reasons, to have it out (at least partially) that way. It might come up because it's all connected, but it won't be the focus.


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## Laurel (Nov 15, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> **Let's just get the pregnancy thing figured out as soon as possible. It's been on the table for far, far too long and there's so little *we* can do about it... it's really your decision, now Kennon.



Yes there are other things we need to chat with Jaine about, but we found answers to the communing and have a list of options for Jaine- it's up to her now. We aren't going to force her into any one of the options, and though we have ones individually we feel are better or worse- she has to make the decision and we have agreed that we will help as much as possible whatever way she decides... but is her (or the dices) turn to to choose. 
Kennon, do you want this formally done in IC?

Orginially we just had the females talking to Jaine, which though having everyone there is cool.... I don't know about just throwing in the baby chat with here's all our others plans and thoughts what do you think.... we have been trying to do this the right way....

So however, wherever just let me know. Eagles play tonight versus Dallas!!!

just read Kennon's post so update partially:
So we tell her the options all around. giver time the think those through while we go chat with the bluestar and all those other northern people then come back tell her what's up there- then she has to make her decision, or we just kill her and both kids and be done with it. 
If time is such an issue, I'm glad she's been asking and pushing to talk to anyone about it even those who I thought she concidered her close circle of advisors and such....... anyways.


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Yes there are other things we need to chat with Jaine about, but we found answers to the communing and have a list of options for Jaine- it's up to her now. We aren't going to force her into any one of the options, and though we have ones individually we feel are better or worse- she has to make the decision and we have agreed that we will help as much as possible whatever way she decides... but is her (or the dices) turn to to choose.
> Kennon, do you want this formally done in IC?



It doesn't matter to me if you have the "what to do with the babies discussion" IC or not.   Whatever sounds like the most fun for you.   



> Orginially we just had the females talking to Jaine, which though having everyone there is cool.... I don't know about just throwing in the baby chat with here's all our others plans and thoughts what do you think.... we have been trying to do this the right way....



 I think everyone would _prefer _to have the baby discussion be discreet, but it may not be possible.  Her marital status (and her kids) are of necessity part and parcel of what comes next.  



> So however, wherever just let me know. Eagles play tonight versus Dallas!!!



 Since I should not hope to break up so new a marriage, I wish them both luck!   



> just read Kennon's post so update partially:
> So we tell her the options all around. giver time the think those through while we go chat with the bluestar and all those other northern people then come back tell her what's up there- then she has to make her decision, or we just kill her and both kids and be done with it.



 Killing her might be a little extreme.   

I want to have an IC discussion where you hash out what you all think needs to be done, and then she weighs in on it.  She'll give you the ultimate power of negotiation on her behalf since it's unlikely that she'll go personally, but getting her opinions (after your careful research) can't hurt.  



> If time is such an issue, I'm glad she's been asking and pushing to talk to anyone about it even those who I thought she concidered her close circle of advisors and such....... anyways.



She has been pushing, pulling, and prodding.  Assume that a lot of what I post OOC has come from her.  IC, it may not have seemed that way, because I want the impetus for the major plotlines to come from you guys.  It's _your story, _not Jaines.  

That being said, she wants your input, even Archon's.  Real life gets in the way sometimes, and for obvious reasons she hasn't been able to seek advice IC from you for a while, now.


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## Xath (Nov 15, 2004)

*Something the Bluestar Wants...*

So...I've figured out something else the bluestar wants.  It's not something we're going to want to give him, but it may be of equal weight to the "freedom" thing.  Prophecy tells us that the Bluestar's downfall will come from Oberon's last daughter.   I don't remember which prophecy this is from...but...let's assume he knows about it, because I'm sure he does.  So who are Oberon's last daughters?

1) Andere Bluestar- Well, he already has her, and she's not ours to bargain with, so...no.

2) Jaine Rhynn- The queen of our rebellion, the bluestar may not want her directly, but he may want to arrange some sort of deal where he has a modicum of influence over her...like a marriage...to someone he already controls.  Or if she dies in childbirth, he's the lord of the dead, so he'd have her anyway.  However, I don't think she's relevant to the prophecy if she's dead.

3) Jaine Rhynn Jr. - If AA has problems with us dealing with the Bluestar in the first place, I'm sure he won't want us giving his daughter to the lichlord.

4) L'Aurel Woodshadow - I'm not sure if L'Aurel is still considered to be a daughter of Oberon in her new form.

5) Ara Arendorr - I don't think AA wants to give his sister to the Bluestar either.

6) Link's daughter, "Whatsherface" - Under Tain's control, so not really our concern.

Can anyone think of any more? Anyway, it's highly likely, in my opinion, that this issue will come up on the table.  Certainly we don't want to hand any of these people over...but it may be a viable alternative to giving the Bluestar freedom.


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## Archon (Nov 15, 2004)

*Back into the fold*

i still respectfully disagree that we should/need to ally with the Bluestar but I am clearly outnumbered so i concede to the group.
i still think that the best option for everybody, even Jaine, is for her to marry AA but i am clearly outnumbered so i concede to the group.
i'm sorry i couldn't explain myself better. i'm not sorry for offering a different opinion though. i hope that everything works out and we get to win D&D   
no more dissent from the michols. we're all unified now.    let's kick some butt...
so, who is making the PLAN?
mik


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> i'm not sorry for offering a different opinion though. i hope that everything works out and we get to win D&D



Nor should you be.  I enjoy the debate, at the very least.  I usually come up with the best stuff listening to what you guys are afraid of, and/or trying to defend what I think is a good idea.  



			
				Archon said:
			
		

> no more dissent from the michols. we're all unified now.  let's kick some butt...
> so, who is making the PLAN?
> mik



We're _all_ making a plan (by which I mean we're all using our brains to make one plan, rather than all making seperate plans) I posted a rough outline a couple of pages back for what I thought would be a good start, but would like to add Gertie's idea of separating the twins, once born. I'll see if I can dig it up - if I can, I'll post it as a decent starting point?


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## The_Universe (Nov 15, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> So...I've figured out something else the bluestar wants.  It's not something we're going to want to give him, but it may be of equal weight to the "freedom" thing.  Prophecy tells us that the Bluestar's downfall will come from Oberon's last daughter.   I don't remember which prophecy this is from...but...let's assume he knows about it, because I'm sure he does.  So who are Oberon's last daughters?
> 
> 1) Andere Bluestar- Well, he already has her, and she's not ours to bargain with, so...no.
> 
> ...



 I think you'd rather have him free and wreaking havoc (and possibly defeatable), than imprisoned and invincible (as far as prophecy is concerned) for all of eternity - especially since he might get out, anyway.   

But yeah - I'd agree that those things are probably equivalent.  He'd probably jump at the chance to get his skeletal hands on all of them, just in case. >


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 15, 2004)

We should ask during Commune who, exactly, Oberron's Last Daughter is... because, if it's Mrs. Big Blue, he could be unbeatable right now.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2004)

I think we should try to send Jaine's daughter to the Jade Forest Acad.


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## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I think we should try to send Jaine's daughter to the Jade Forest Acad.



That may be dangerous, as has been discussed above. The Academy may turn a blind eye to fatherless daughters, but they may have more trouble with rearing an infant daughter of either a treasonous rebel Queen or a murderer in the service of that same rebellion. 

Also, remember that the daughter will be marked. 

Honestly, though, the person you have to convince is Archon - if Jaine can be convinced to split up her children, at least one will likely end in the care of her _father_.  What does _he_ think?


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## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> We should ask during Commune who, exactly, Oberron's Last Daughter is... because, if it's Mrs. Big Blue, he could be unbeatable right now.



Good idea.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> That may be dangerous, as has been discussed above.  The Academy may turn a blind eye to fatherless daughters, but they may have more trouble with rearing an infant daughter of either a treasonous rebel Queen or a murderer in the service of that same rebellion.
> 
> Also, remember that the daughter will be marked.
> 
> Honestly, though, the person you have to convince is Archon - if Jaine can be convinced to split up her children, at least one will likely end in the care of her _father_.



 She can't come adventuring with us... so, she's got to somewhere that isn't Hyrwl...

Justice is more than willing to do everything she can to convince the Acad. to take her... and, if they won't, someone in the rebellion needs to take her far, far away to raise her.

So, unless we want to send her North to live with Grandpa, I'm not sure what other options we have.


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## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> She can't come adventuring with us... so, she's got to somewhere that isn't Hyrwl...
> 
> Justice is more than willing to do everything she can to convince the Acad. to take her... and, if they won't, someone in the rebellion needs to take her far, far away to raise her.
> 
> So, unless we want to send her North to live with Grandpa, I'm not sure what other options we have.



 Those are all valid points, and certainly ideas worth pursuit - but remember that it is Archonus and Jaine who must _decide_, even if the rest of the circle can _suggest_.

I would contend, on the suggestion end, that the world is a dangerous place, and that she will be _safe_ nowhere. Further, if she is not publicly raised as Archonus's daughter, she forfeits any claim she has on an eventual throne.  Those difficulties are not insurmountable, but they do exist.


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## Xath (Nov 16, 2004)

I think sending her to the Jade Forest Academy is a bad idea, for several reasons.

1) As stated above, if she is not raised publicly as AA's daughter, she loses legitimacy as heir to the March of Sylvannus, as well as the other beneifits I listed in my previous post about splitting up the twins.
2) We don't have any strong connections to the Jade Forest Academy.  Justice is a graduate, to be sure, but from what I gathered from the prologue, she was not well liked enough to curry any particular favors, especially of this magnitude.  I could be wrong. 
3) The Jade Forest Academy is a fighter training school.  Many of the graduates go off to be mercenaries, some join the king's talon, some join us.  Asking them to raise a child that is a valuable commodity to us, and a target of the King and the Bluestar is not a good idea.  
4) We don't have control of the academy.  They could do anything with her and we wouldn't be able to influence it.  

I acknowledge that it is a bad idea to drag her around with us in a papoose.  However, as stated above, she is conveniently of the right age to be an ideal playmate for Jaine's son, as long as we make sure they don't marry each other.  Ew...

This way, Jaine could be mother and Archon could be father to both of their children without jeopardizing their claims to legitimacy.  They are as safe in Hyrwl as they are anywhere, perhaps safer.  And there we can be sure to have influence on their upbringing.  

But after all is said and done, it's up to AA and Jaine.


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## Xath (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> She can't come adventuring with us... so, she's got to somewhere that isn't Hyrwl...





Even if we "split up" the twins, we don't actually have to split up the twins.  The split doesn't necessarily refer to a physical seperation so much as a differentiation between their parentage and claims to legitimacy amongst the kingdom.  There's no reason why both can't remain in Hyrwl, and as long as that remains the base of operations for both Archon and Jaine, it makes perfect sense to have them both there.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> I think sending her to the Jade Forest Academy is a bad idea, for several reasons.
> 
> 1) As stated above, if she is not raised publicly as AA's daughter, she loses legitimacy as heir to the March of Sylvannus, as well as the other beneifits I listed in my previous post about splitting up the twins.
> 2) We don't have any strong connections to the Jade Forest Academy.  Justice is a graduate, to be sure, but from what I gathered from the prologue, she was not well liked enough to curry any particular favors, especially of this magnitude.  I could be wrong.
> ...



 I agree with most of this, save the idea that the child will ultimately be safe in Hyrwl.  One misplaced spell and both heirs to the throne, and the throne itself are toasty and dead.  

I agree with Liz - you gotta get one of them out of Hyrwl (at least most of the time) while still making it clear that she belongs to AA, not AB, and not anybody else.  It's a toughy - fortunately, you have a few months before you need to figure _this_ part out.  But it's good to be thinking about it.  



> Even if we "split up" the twins, we don't actually have to split up the twins. The split doesn't necessarily refer to a physical seperation so much as a differentiation between their parentage and claims to legitimacy amongst the kingdom. There's no reason why both can't remain in Hyrwl, and as long as that remains the base of operations for both Archon and Jaine, it makes perfect sense to have them both there.



 While differentiation of their parentage and claims is very important, keeping both of the potential heirs to your fragile kingdom in one place is dangerous.  While _politically _beneficial to only seperate their parental claims, it's a security nightmare.  

There's a reason the king's of france were usually reared in Spain or Austria (and not just because France, as a general rule, sucks).


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> I think sending her to the Jade Forest Academy is a bad idea, for several reasons.




I never said it was a good idea... however, it was *an* idea... and, realistically, it's the only place that Justice knows... and, if you're going to grow up without a parent... she knows from experience it's a good place to do it.  And so, I spoke on behalf of Justice.

However, I do think she needs to be raised elsewhere... so, where do y'all think would work?

It is much easier to send her away than it is to lie to everyone who asks about where that baby comes from... especially if she happens to look A LOT like Jaine.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> It is much easier to send her away than it is to lie to everyone who asks about where that baby comes from... especially if she happens to look A LOT like Jaine.



As is often the case in real life, the fact that she has an enormous blue birthmark will distract a great deal from the rest of her facial features.  

But yeah - assuming Jaine lives, the fewer times they're seen standing in the same room for long periods of time, the better.


----------



## Laurel (Nov 16, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> So...I've figured out something else the bluestar wants. It's not something we're going to want to give him, but it may be of equal weight to the "freedom" thing. Prophecy tells us that the Bluestar's downfall will come from Oberon's last daughter. I don't remember which prophecy this is from...but...let's assume he knows about it, because I'm sure he does. So who are Oberon's last daughters?



With all the prophesies out there I could be wrong, but I thought it was a specific one not from our campaign but the last one that said the woodshadow's blood or daughter would eliminate/kill the bluestar?.....Reason the bluestar specifically went after the Amastatia while the second child was still unborn.

But, in either case I don't think L'aurel counts anymore unless Selura has some strange conection in this ever growing family or unless being Oberon's Daughter is a spirit link and not blood.

PS- good list and link there!


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## Laurel (Nov 16, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> As is often the case in real life, the fact that she has an enormous blue birthmark will distract a great deal from the rest of her facial features.



Instead of a silver spoon she is born with a silver mask


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

On another note - I started an IC character conversation with everybody over Gmail.  It may be a horrific disaster (and if it is, we'll ignore it) but I thought that getting some of that stuff out of the way might be beneficial to the fun quotient on Saturday.  

Everybody's still free saturday, right?


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> With all the prophesies out there I could be wrong, but I thought it was a specific one not from our campaign but the last one that said the woodshadow's blood or daughter would eliminate/kill the bluestar?.....Reason the bluestar specifically went after the Amastatia while the second child was still unborn.



 Gertie's right on the money, regardless of where you heard the prophecy - The phrase used was "Oberon's last daughter."  As Gertie has so carefully enumerated above, that could be any number of people - although probably not L'Aurel, any more.


----------



## Laurel (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> However, I do think she needs to be raised elsewhere... so, where do y'all think would work?



Can we use some of that 50,000 to build a small play room in another plane and have Auntie AA's Sister look after her till such time as AA can?
Otherwise why not at least have AA's sister on nanny duty if she would agree to it?

If we send her away- not saying these are the only nor the best ideas-before any of these though Archonus publically claims/accepts her as his blood child.  Then even by her going somewhere else she has been established for possible later ruling wherever.

A) Jade Forest Academy
B) Lots of people have used big open forest areas to hide in
C) Build a bigger little hut type place in an extra planer space
D) Up North with grandpa
E) In Sylvanus- under Bluestar's eye and Archonus' rule.  This could set her up early for her position and the whole link with A and Bluestar is already known and established.  It would be a place that the bluestar could protect her if he so chose or if we could get him to agree to it.
F) Give her to Mr. Miagi and A's sister to be raised in One Oak.
G) Send her off with a pack of wolves to be raised (new name Mogli)
H) AB becomes her nanny and thus has to figure out how to keep her safe without taking her North.
I) Forget sending her off let's see how she does in battle 
J) I know there are more and better ideas out there......


----------



## Laurel (Nov 16, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> On another note - I started an IC character conversation with everybody over Gmail. It may be a horrific disaster (and if it is, we'll ignore it) but I thought that getting some of that stuff out of the way might be beneficial to the fun quotient on Saturday.
> 
> Everybody's still free saturday, right?



What we were supposed to keep Saturday free? J/K Yep Greg and I are still free for some KOA  

Let the chatting begin  And I'm going to use the gmail account, so it should be easier then my normal cut/paste/change format/add to bottom style


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> On another note - I started an IC character conversation with everybody over Gmail.  It may be a horrific disaster (and if it is, we'll ignore it) but I thought that getting some of that stuff out of the way might be beneficial to the fun quotient on Saturday.
> 
> Everybody's still free saturday, right?



 You did not add me to the list.  Could someone please send it to me.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> What we were supposed to keep Saturday free? J/K Yep Greg and I are still free for some KOA
> 
> Let the chatting begin  And I'm going to use the gmail account, so it should be easier then my normal cut/paste/change format/add to bottom style



Awesome. 



> Otherwise why not at least have AA's sister on nanny duty if she would agree to it?



 That might be a possibility, although she may not be much of a warrior, and she's not very old. Then again, neither are any of you. Couldn't hurt to consider it. 



> Jade Forest Academy



 A possibility, but dangerous unless her identity is completely unknown. 


> Lots of people have used big open forest areas to hide in



 And there are lots of forest possibilities - who would you put with her? 


> C) Build a bigger little hut type place in an extra planer space



 Might work for emergencies, but probably dangerous to her long term pyshological health. 


> D) Up North with grandpa



 If he ever figured out who her mother was, he'd probably kill her. Also, while he'd undoubtedly educate her well in the practices of realpolitik and necromancy, there are probably better role models.  


> E) In Sylvanus- under Bluestar's eye and Archonus' rule. This could set her up early for her position and the whole link with A and Bluestar is already known and established. It would be a place that the bluestar could protect her if he so chose or if we could get him to agree to it.



 He might offer protection, but he hasn't been overly protective of his other descendents, so there'd have to be something special (or something good in return) for this one. 


> F) Give her to Mr. Miagi and A's sister to be raised in One Oak.



 That's interesting. Lord Miagi and Master Ryoko both might be good choices for this...


> G) Send her off with a pack of wolves to be raised (new name Mogli)



 Great idea! Now where did I put those talking wolves...


> H) AB becomes her nanny and thus has to figure out how to keep her safe without taking her North.



 I think part of the idea of splitting up the kids is to make sure that at least one of them stays clear of the influence of Archonus Bluestar, since there seems to be some worry over his intentions and loyalties. Since she looks like AA, she'll also look like AB, which may confuse the issue of parentage and make it more obvious that the little prince and she are brother and sister, and not just cousins of a remarkably similar age. 


> I) Forget sending her off let's see how she does in battle



 Hell yes. I still think this is the best idea. 


> J) I know there are more and better ideas out there......



 Have the black orcs raise her as one of their own!


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> You did not add me to the list.  Could someone please send it to me.



 Got it, now!


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## Archon (Nov 16, 2004)

*Aunt Ara Arendorr*

i'm not on the G-mail chat either. I don't know if i'm part of the convo, but if the fate of Archon's children is to be decided during it, i'd appreciate if he was let in.
Anyway, if we are in fact splitting up the kids while Jaine...does whatever, Archon wants to raise his daughter directly and if he has to have someone watch her, he'll ask his sister which, by the way, is a redmage.
mik


----------



## Laurel (Nov 16, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> i'm not on the G-mail chat either. I don't know if i'm part of the convo, but if the fate of Archon's children is to be decided during it, i'd appreciate if he was let in.
> Anyway, if we are in fact splitting up the kids while Jaine...does whatever, Archon wants to raise his daughter directly and if he has to have someone watch her, he'll ask his sister which, by the way, is a redmage.
> mik



The circle is there in it's entirety.... Archonus as father to kids and as possible option and as part of the circle is kind of a necessary part to the convo, so yes you are there.  
hmmmm.... You are listed in all the replies.... It's being sent to: *Mik Nichols michols@gmail.com*


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## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> i'm not on the G-mail chat either. I don't know if i'm part of the convo, but if the fate of Archon's children is to be decided during it, i'd appreciate if he was let in.
> Anyway, if we are in fact splitting up the kids while Jaine...does whatever, Archon wants to raise his daughter directly and if he has to have someone watch her, he'll ask his sister which, by the way, is a redmage.
> mik



 Another possibility would be to have Preston or Dorn watch over her?  Preston, at least, has proven able to watch over young girls whose lives are often threatened...although his experience with infants is definitely limited.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> i'm not on the G-mail chat either. I don't know if i'm part of the convo, but if the fate of Archon's children is to be decided during it, i'd appreciate if he was let in.
> Anyway, if we are in fact splitting up the kids while Jaine...does whatever, Archon wants to raise his daughter directly and if he has to have someone watch her, he'll ask his sister which, by the way, is a redmage.
> mik



 Also, what does Archon think about splitting them up, at all?  I don't think we've heard a lot of commentary on that end.


----------



## Laurel (Nov 16, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Another possibility would be to have Preston or Dorn watch over her? Preston, at least, has proven able to watch over young girls whose lives are often threatened...although his experience with infants is definitely limited.



Preston, Auntie Arrendor, and a few shadows?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Preston, Auntie Arrendor, and a few shadows?



 Justice would support that idea.

If Archonus wants to raise her directly, does he plan to quit his adventuring career in 7 months?


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Justice would support that idea.
> 
> If Archonus wants to raise her directly, does he plan to quit his adventuring career in 7 months?



 People have adventured with children before - and for the most part, it's turned out OK.  It's not a normal childhood, but let's not pretend like it's impossible in the realm of science fiction and fantasy literature/tv/movies/games/etc.  

Archon, like it or not, has a dual obligation here.  Choosing to fulfill both at the same time may be difficult, but hardly impossible.


----------



## Laurel (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Justice would support that idea.
> 
> If Archonus wants to raise her directly, does he plan to quit his adventuring career in 7 months?



Obviously he makes the choice, but he could let them care for the child and he visits for the first year.  Then it may have a little bit better grasp of the whole mark thing and with his take the pain away they go into every combat possible.   If the war is over before then (hey this is fanasy) he can get to her sooner.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Obviously he makes the choice, but he could let them care for the child and he visits for the first year.  Then it may have a little bit better grasp of the whole mark thing and with his take the pain away they go into every combat possible.   If the war is over before then (hey this is fanasy) he can get to her sooner.



 It is a touchy subject for Justice... sort of makes her feel... bad.

If we can adventure with Archonus' child... why couldn't her mother have taken her?

So, expect Justice to fight the choice to have the child there with them... if, for no better reason, than she would be jealous.


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## Laurel (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> It is a touchy subject for Justice... sort of makes her feel... bad.
> If we can adventure with Archonus' child... why couldn't her mother have taken her?
> So, expect Justice to fight the choice to have the child there with them... if, for no better reason, than she would be jealous.



insteresting thought process......
Solution, Justice should get pregnant and then tote her kid around too!


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> insteresting thought process......
> Solution, Justice should get pregnant and then tote her kid around too!



 She's doing everything she can to avoid the Queens Predicament.


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## Laurel (Nov 16, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> She's doing everything she can to avoid the Queens Predicament.



Except Justice is married and her husband wants her around and she's not paralyzed.....


----------



## Archon (Nov 16, 2004)

*Let's see what kind of father an archon makes*



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> Also, what does Archon think about splitting them up, at all?  I don't think we've heard a lot of commentary on that end.




he would rather love and care for them both while never having to lie to them, but that is probably not going to happen. If we have to split up the children Archon is not going to leave his child for someone else to raise. He might leave her in Hyrwl every now and then to be babysitted but never for an extended period of time.
If the split occurs the daughter will be raised by Archon. Period.
mik


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> Except Justice is married and her husband wants her around and she's not paralyzed.....



 I suppose that's true...

Gee, Varis is a nice guy.  

So, Archonus... does that mean you will be bringing Baby Girl Arrendor along adventuring?


----------



## Archon (Nov 16, 2004)

*Marcus and Ara...?*

If in seven months the war is still being faught, yes. Depending on the length's and make up of the mission though there may be times when i leave her at home for a day, maybe two, with Aunt Ara and the Shadows.
mik


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## Laurel (Nov 17, 2004)

Is anyone else having problems with g-mail?


----------



## Archon (Nov 17, 2004)

no. what's the problem Kat?


----------



## Laurel (Nov 17, 2004)

When I try to open messages it gives me an oops error.  I tried g-mail's solution under trouble shooting, but that did nothin'.  I sent in a request of what the issue was..... lets see if they get it  and fix it 

just wanted make sure it was just me before becoming too much a annoyance to them


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## Archon (Nov 17, 2004)

i'm pretty sure it's just you at this point. do you want me to forward you the messages or pause the convo or something? i don't want you to miss anything good. 
mik


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## Laurel (Nov 17, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> i'm pretty sure it's just you at this point. do you want me to forward you the messages or pause the convo or something? i don't want you to miss anything good.
> mik



If it's easy I'd love for a forward or what I have missed so far  also, next time you send one out can you see if or add me on to the list with this add:

Thanks!!!!!


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## The_Universe (Nov 18, 2004)

I posted the wedding and the funeral IC.    All in one merry post. 

Have a look.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 18, 2004)

*Caer Albion*

(Up is north)

Attached is a map of Caer Albion (crude, but serviceable).

Key - 

1) The Royal Palace

2) The Noble's Council

3) Talon HQ

4) The Tower of Rings (AKA Aregonn's Tower)

5) Surrell's Keep (HQ for the King's Army, Navy, and Marines)

6) The Temple of the Risen Amastacia

7) The Grand Basilica of the Apectan Order

8) The Walls of Caer Albion (not pictured)


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## The_Universe (Nov 18, 2004)

In the above, all of the empty "blocks" are in fact also filled with buildings and stuff - I just got lazy.  

Just thought I'd let you know.  If you want to know where stuff not pictured (or at least not labelled) is, just let me know and I'll try to get it marked.


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## Laurel (Nov 18, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> In the above, all of the empty "blocks" are in fact also filled with buildings and stuff - I just got lazy.
> 
> Just thought I'd let you know. If you want to know where stuff not pictured (or at least not labelled) is, just let me know and I'll try to get it marked.



Where is every member of the attacking army and every red talon and regular talon and innocent located?

Obviously I'm just being a smarta**!


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## Laurel (Nov 18, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I posted the wedding and the funeral IC.  All in one merry post.
> 
> Have a look.



Great another NPC who knows too much- kill!  Just kidding it was cool reading 

So now Justice and Duke are rulers of Caer Mylen and Oceanus... now to just go and truly lay claim to them for the Queendom!  Also after the cool imagery in the story, I wonder what thier kids will look like.....?


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## The_Universe (Nov 18, 2004)

> Great another NPC who knows too much- kill! Just kidding it was cool reading



 10 points to the first person who guesses who that mysterious NPC was/is!


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## Xath (Nov 18, 2004)

That sounded like... Oberon.


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## The_Universe (Nov 18, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> That sounded like... Oberon.



 I shouldn't have toyed with you.  I'm not going to tell you if you were right or wrong.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


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## Laurel (Nov 18, 2004)

*opppps gave the sword to the wrong guy- it's Jaine's true love!*



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> That sounded like... Oberon.



I would love to see this!
Though it would make me wonder that a jolly green giant was wondering around and no one was questioning it.  But he could be in another body.... too much of that already!


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 19, 2004)

Hey gang - if you're going to introduce a heretofore unconsidered option to a the plan, I suggest you hash it out here, not over e-mail.


----------



## Archon (Nov 19, 2004)

*A different Plan*

First we go to Caer Albion and let them know that we are here to help and that a sizeable force will be here soon to break the seige. And we ask them to make us a list of their defensive capabilities while we head north.
So, we go north and hire as many mercenaries as we can get our hands on.
Then we talk to Jansten's people and work up a deal with them. We provide them extra men (mercs) and Cawys as a leader if they keep the Bluestar busy while we fight Tain.
After that we use "Lesser Gate" to port our close to 3000 mercs (maybe more if you guys can pitch in) to Caer Albion. Then the fun starts, we, the Circle, take out the Draconid's key leadership while the troops clen up the mess. 
After we take Caer Albion we proclaim that the King did not come to save you, we did and that he is in fact not himself and in league with the Draconids, falsifying the Bluestar's involvment so he could send troops north for the slaughter and thus leave his cities unprotected from draconid invaders.
After that we march unto Thanesport to kill the King. Our men don't actually have to fight Thanesports defenders they just need to sit around the walls and thus provide a nice distraction for...
The Circle to sneak in and kill the King. Now assuming he is just a puppet of the draconids killing him will still serve a purpose, it would deprive the Falcon Kingdom of a king thus leaving us the chance to negotiate our own leadership. If we can instill the Queen and thus our nation in his place then that would bring peace between our factions and let us focus on battling Draonids and not each other.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 19, 2004)

> That's the important stuff as I see it - do with it what you will. You have several very valid paths, and the sooner you choose one (or choose several, and make a plan to make them all happen) the better. I'd like to be able to prepare a little more for the next time we play. These are hardly the only things going on at the moment, and I know there are other things you've talked about - like going to the Jade Forest Academy - that you may wish to pursue, as well. Good luck, and happy hunting.
> 
> 
> PS - PLEASE DECIDE QUICKLY.



 I said this almost 4 weeks ago.  I appreciate the sudden flurry of options, but remember that part of a my job as the DM is to prepare.  There are always a certain number of things that cannot be planned for - when that happens, I get to react as best I can, trying to create something that, at least, makes sense (even if it's usually not as good as the stuff I DO prepare).  

But there are limits.  We're 27 _hours_ from playing, and I asked for at least a rudimentary decision 27 _days_ ago.  I have a responsibility to try to make the game fun for you all - I do my best.  But part of what makes the game fun for _me _is to not spend every session rocked back upon my heels as you push against every natural opportunity in the game.  

Even then, I can deal with that, as long as I have _time_.  

I thought we had the beginnings of a plan going.  I guess we don't.  But I am BEGGING you to decide what you're going to do soon, or there's _no way_ I can provide a decent game session tomorrow.

So that's my request - and a reminder of part of what makes the game fun for me.


----------



## Archon (Nov 19, 2004)

*reasons*

i don't mean to ruin your fun kennon   and i'm sorry it took this long to come up with a "player-made" plan. Everyone knows i've been pushing for a different plan and i have offered different ideas and now i offer a different plan. But like all thing in the game it should be decided by the group. Kennon has offered his plan and i have offered mine. Now i know he has planned for his plan already ("planned for his plan", i hope that's right   ) and that's fine but my plan isn't too terrible different and shouldn't effect tommorrow's game because i doubt we'll get past saving Caer Albion which we we're planning on doing anyway.
But hey, like i said, i'm just trying to offer different options and i'm sorry it took me so long to come up with anything even resembling a plan and your either for it or your not. I just tried to come up with a viable military solution which did not involve siding with evil. This was no easy task, but i thank everyone for asking the questions of me and forcing me to think (can you smell the wood burning  ). 
Part of the fun for me is getting to decide my characters fate so making this plan and hopefully getting to implement it, will be fun_ for me_.
anyway, peice out my hommies,
mik


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 19, 2004)

> Part of the fun for me is getting to decide my characters fate so making this plan and hopefully getting to implement it, will be fun_ for me_.



 At this risk of sounding angry, I find this statement blatantly insulting to both my skill and effort. Skill, I recognize, may be inflated in my own imagination. But effort? Read over the thread, and tell me exactly where I decided your character's fate. I have tried and tried and tried and tried to get you guys to take initiative and consider all of the factors to make a plan. When you did not, I suggested the beginnings of a plan. I only "decided your fate" after you refused to decide your own. 

27 days - 27. I've now got 27 hours to react, and on top of that, being told that it was unfair to have encouraged you to make a decision before now. 

Meh. 

Anyway, with that off my chest, I'm all smiles and giggles. Just wanted to share my dissatisfaction with how this is all suddenly being characterized. 

EDIT - 24.5 hours.


----------



## Archon (Nov 19, 2004)

No insult intended, but when we didn't have a plan you made one for us. And that seemed fine by everyone but me, so i tried to come up with something else. That's it no malice just preferance.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 19, 2004)

Archon said:
			
		

> No insult intended, but when we didn't have a plan you made one for us. And that seemed fine by everyone but me, so i tried to come up with something else. That's it no malice just preferance.



 EDIT: Thanks for the no-malice notification. 

Hash this out IC ASAP.  I've got a lot of writing to do if you go your way.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 19, 2004)

I think Archonus' plan is great... in addition to our own.

However, there are somethings that will need to be done if it is going to work out...

(1) Secret diplomatic missions: this serves as an opportunity for us to get support on the streets of Thanesport.  Teleporting in and soapboxing our message.

(2) Extend those diplomatic missions to the men and women serving as Thanesport's defense: we DO NOT want to attack the city and wage war on a bunch of Lawful Good individuals that are simply defending their king.  We know he's evil.  They don't.  They are not actively fighting against our cause so we need to do everything we can do avoid killing them.

(3) Plant our people in the defenses of Thanesport: get guys that support us into the ranks that way, when we do attack, we can have individuals there to attempt to convince people not already on our side to run, run away!

(4) DO NOT attack with the Bluestar's forces: Tain already tells everybody that we are cronies of Big Blue.  Don't want to further THAT implication anymore than we have to.


----------



## The_Universe (Nov 21, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> (1) Secret diplomatic missions: this serves as an opportunity for us to get support on the streets of Thanesport. Teleporting in and soapboxing our message.



 Good idea. Thanesport should definitely be a priority, but it couldn't hurt to do this in more locations. 



> (2) Extend those diplomatic missions to the men and women serving as Thanesport's defense: we DO NOT want to attack the city and wage war on a bunch of Lawful Good individuals that are simply defending their king. We know he's evil. They don't. They are not actively fighting against our cause so we need to do everything we can do avoid killing them.



 You'll probably have to depend on the above-mentioned soapbox missions getting these people the right messages, as they're not exactly a discrete populace.  However, good people dying for one cause or the other is essentially unavoidable.  



> (3) Plant our people in the defenses of Thanesport: get guys that support us into the ranks that way, when we do attack, we can have individuals there to attempt to convince people not already on our side to run, run away!



 That's interesting.  Lots of bluffing.  Would probably work better as a short term con, rather than a long term one.  In the confusion of battle, people might not look as closely at those that are "reinforcing" them.  



> (4) DO NOT attack with the Bluestar's forces: Tain already tells everybody that we are cronies of Big Blue. Don't want to further THAT implication anymore than we have to.



This might be unavoidable.  However, since the army of Prydein and the Army of the Watch are currently counted among the Bluestar's forces...


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## Xath (Nov 21, 2004)

*We can guess what he wants, so what do we want?*

Ok.  We have hashed out what we think the Bluestar wants.  But now we need to know exactly what we want from him.  We can't just go in with the generic idea of "troops" and "support" or we'll have our behinds handed to us on a platter.  What kinds of troops do we want?  Where do we want them?  And how are we going to get them there?

Here are a few suggestions of my on:

The joint Armies of Prydein and the Watch which have come under control of the Bluestar, will be given to the jurisdiction of the Phoenix throne.  This has several advantages.  

1) The souls of all of those people would no longer belong to the Bluestar. (yes, Xath has some vested character interest in this fact)
2) The army is already armed, equipped, and south of the wall.

I picture that we would give them the option of serving the Army of the Phoenix for a year, or remaining with the Bluestar.  Because of the circumstances in which they were sent over the wall, they would be more open to our accusations of the king's evil-ness, because they already know he's a dink.  Can you imagine the reaction of Caer Albion, if the Army of Prydein and the Army of the Watch came to their rescue flying the banner of the Phoenix?  Tell me that is not cool...go on...try...I dare you.  

We will also want the ability to transport the troops about the kingdom, so some scrolls of Teleportation Circle should also be included in the deal.  

I also think I have figured out a way for the Bluestar to travel south of the wall without us having to take down the wall.  If this were to work, we could trade information of such a plan for what we want.  This way, he can move about the kingdom, but his undead legions would still be trapped behind the barrier.  More to come on this when I've worked out the kinks.


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## The_Universe (Nov 22, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> 1) The souls of all of those people would no longer belong to the Bluestar. (yes, Xath has some vested character interest in this fact)
> 2) The army is already armed, equipped, and south of the wall.



He probably likes having control of their souls, and you can guess he won't be likely to just give them up.  However, you can be almost certain that any deal would result in them being used to further your own cause, at least for now.  They are, after all, on the correct side of the wall, and ready to fight.    



> I picture that we would give them the option of serving the Army of the Phoenix for a year, or remaining with the Bluestar. Because of the circumstances in which they were sent over the wall, they would be more open to our accusations of the king's evil-ness, because they already know he's a dink. Can you imagine the reaction of Caer Albion, if the Army of Prydein and the Army of the Watch came to their rescue flying the banner of the Phoenix? Tell me that is not cool...go on...try...I dare you.



 Just bear in mind that they may not have that option without the forebearance of their current master.  By all appearances, AB orchestrated a situation in which the vast majority of them were not simply slain and enslaved...but the price of their continued lives was, at least my implication, not proverbial pocket change.   



> We will also want the ability to transport the troops about the kingdom, so some scrolls of Teleportation Circle should also be included in the deal.



 And perhaps some more magic users who can cast the spell?



> I also think I have figured out a way for the Bluestar to travel south of the wall without us having to take down the wall. If this were to work, we could trade information of such a plan for what we want.



 Now that's very intriguing.  Post it, and I'll let you know if you're on the right track, at least.  If I'm in the right mood, I might even tell you if it will work.  



> This way, he can move about the kingdom, but his undead legions would still be trapped behind the barrier. More to come on this when I've worked out the kinks.



 Just bear in mind that the Bluestar, given the ability to operate south of the wall, will keep trying to allow his hordes of undead into the South.


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## Laurel (Nov 22, 2004)

Getting the soldiers released may be something we can ask for- but as with AB's it may not be as simple as old blue saying you are released and it may be an oath that goes beyond anythign that can be undone.

Plus as stated above, that is his force south of the wall.  Until he can get more there.


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## The_Universe (Nov 22, 2004)

*This need not be more than a jumping off point*



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> Ok. We have hashed out what we think the Bluestar wants. But now we need to know exactly what we want from him. We can't just go in with the generic idea of "troops" and "support" or we'll have our behinds handed to us on a platter. What kinds of troops do we want? Where do we want them?



 Rather than go back to the IC thread, which is probably long enough, I'll give you the summary of Jaine's _intitial _opnion of what she wants from the Bluestar. That opinion can be changed, but as for a baseline, her desires and reasoning are as follows: 

Even if the Armies of the Watch and Prydein are forever lost to the King, his conventional forces still outnumber ours by a factor of at least ten to one, and probably more. Further, even his losses end with a net increase in his troop strengths, since the fallen, if not immediately destroyed, can be raised and pressed back into usefulness as undead thralls. 

As such, we need to acquire as much as we can from the Bluestar. Tain is not fighting a limited war, and we cannot afford to fight one, either. He has loosed a force upon a citizenry that he is charged to protect that not only consumes, but _transforms _his people into something unnatural. 

The Bluestar has equipment, and the ability to produce steeldrakes and other siege weaponry in foundries that the king does not control and probably cannot observe. Some of his troops are the walking dead, and some are not. The more troops we refuse to use, the less likely Jansten's rebellion is to succeed, so we want as many of the Bluestar's troops south of the wall as he is willing to share, _including undead_. 

Though we will accept such troops, they must be employed carefully. If a force of undead troops can be gotten south of the wall, they should be used first at the _Isle of Mourning_, where we need not worry about corrupting those who could be our allies. That being said, any force used on the Isle requires intelligence, since part of their mission would be a search for the blades - a balance must be struck, something that can more than likely be taken care of after a basic agreement is reached. 

A Hierarchy of Command must be established. We cannot expect the Bluestar to swear fealty to Jaine, and politically they are essentially equals. That being said, One of the two of them must be considered superior. Jane hopes that it can be agreed that the Phoenix king or queen can be considered the High Ruler, but expects that a deal would not allow it. If it does go down that way, She (and her rightful descendents) will be Sovereign in the lands that she rules, and He (and his descendents) in the land that he rules. Close advisors and nobles will likewise change position depending on where they are. 

In contested lands (essentially anything currently controlled by Tain) the issue of command becomes more complicated. Each group must have immediate sovereignty over their own troops, but should a commander become incapacitated, a ranking member of the other "army" may take command. Since there's essentially no way to balance this systemically, ultimate command will have to be taken on a case-by-case basis. 

In order to minimize potential command conflicts, the direction of the war (and when it "ends") must be clearly established by both sovereigns (and, of course, their advisors). Jaine's initial stance is that the surrender or elimination of the draconids, as well as the surrender and/or elimination of Tain would signal the end of the war. The Bluestar might have other ideas, but that's her initial stand. 

As for specific forces and tasks, Jaine wants: 

1) A force to help relieve/capture Caer Albion. 
2) A force to slow the retrieval of the blades on the Isle of Mourning, or retrieve the Blades themselves. 
3) Reinforcements/equipment for the force protecting Hyrwl and New Oceanus
4) At least one other expeditionary force, to be used for other important targets that may arise. 
These tasks might include...
---Retaking Oceanus
---Capturing important places like Caer Melyn
---Reacting to other Draconid invasions
---Others?
5) She also wants a naval force of some sort, but the Bluestar is unlikely to be able to provide one. For that, she may have to turn to mercenaries, privateering, or some combination thereof. 

That's the stuff that she/I can come up with off the top of the head. She is, however, listening carefully to what you have to say, so none of these are set in stone. 

EDIT: She also wants forces to find the remaining spiritblades, as well as information as to why they are important.


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## Xath (Nov 22, 2004)

There are two forces south of the wall.  There is the bluestar's force which occupies sylvannus, and there is the Army of Prydein camped outside.

As for the oath, if it's to the Bluestar, he can release them.  We just have to give him something for it.


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## The_Universe (Nov 22, 2004)

There are in fact at least three forces south of the Wall. The Army of Prydein, the Army of the Watch, and whatever of the Bluestar's original forces Archonus Bluestar brought with him (Blue elves and giants, at least).  

I would say, as of the moment, while they are each discretely _organized_, they _all _comprise "the Bluestar's forces."  The former armies of the Falcon kingdom are flying the Bluestar's banner, and AB is, by all appearances, completely in command.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 22, 2004)

Also, I think we should ask Big Blue for a never-ending supply of cake.  Magic cake.  Mmmmm.


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## The_Universe (Nov 22, 2004)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Also, I think we should ask Big Blue for a never-ending supply of cake.  Magic cake.  Mmmmm.



 DONE! Cake and dragon jerky for all!


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## Laurel (Nov 22, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> DONE! Cake and dragon jerky for all!



No we don't need his dragon jerky... that's we keep Kareth and his fist's of dragon killing around


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## The_Universe (Nov 22, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> There is the bluestar's force which occupies sylvannus, and there is the Army of Prydein camped outside.



 The meaning of this statement just registered, and deserves some clarification.  

There is no significant occupying force _in_ Sylvanus.  Members of the Bluestar's forces are in the city, and there are a few cases where they're performing basic security stuff - like checking the docks and guarding sites that are important to AB. However, in most cases, they're just walking around, not clamped down on the city as an occupier would be.  

That being said, they are encamped in sight of the walls, so they could occupy the city with extarordinarily short notice.  But they have not - any of the Bluestar's troops that you see are walking in one's and two's with weapons sheathed - they look more like they're visiting, or something. 

My error on the description, and I am sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Laurel (Nov 22, 2004)

two quick things

1) did AA tell the others about the closet?  -Jansten was there and Xath most likely asked him what was found since she was around-

2) sorry for the super long post on IC thread about the gmail convo. and sorry if it gets off and isn't quite finished..... tried to get it all as IC as possible  Once more the scribe has failed


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## The_Universe (Nov 22, 2004)

Laurel said:
			
		

> two quick things
> 
> 1) did AA tell the others about the closet?  -Jansten was there and Xath most likely asked him what was found since she was around-
> 
> 2) sorry for the super long post on IC thread about the gmail convo. and sorry if it gets off and isn't quite finished..... tried to get it all as IC as possible  Once more the scribe has failed



 I don't know if AA told everyone or not - Mik can tell us.  

As for number 2, the convo is great - more than we expected.  Thank you!


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## The_Universe (Nov 22, 2004)

When we hit 500...

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1869637#post1869637


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