# Best Tank build



## Keifer113

I'd like to build a Tank for my party. I'm thinking High AC and High HP with good saves. 

Does a Dwarf Paladin/Crusader sound good? What are the best builds. 

Only the main rulebooks can be used, but I think most of the stuff in the Complete books are allowed.

It also needs to be simple, because when I'm away from the game other people may run the character.

Thanks for any advice.

Oh...and whats better..a Tank who can wade in and cause alot of damage or one who can take the hits? Ive always been of the mind that high hit points are the way to go because DM's find ways around AC and being attacked....


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## SteelDraco

If you can use the Crusader, go with that. It's really, really tough. Take the defensive-oriented stances and maneuvers, and go nuts with them. I can see taking paladin for Divine Grace if you've got the points to dump into Charisma; otherwise I'm not sure I would bother.

If your goal is to live through ANYTHING, I'd recommend a dwarven psychic warrior. With some of the defensive powers, you can survive almost any fight. Vigor alone lets you ignore a solid two or three hits from comparable threats, since you can get 5 temporary hit points per level. Get the best armor and shield you can, or take the Force Screen power for a +4 shield bonus to AC for one minute per level.

If hit points are your goal, you could go with a dwarven fighter/barbarian. Take heavy armor anyway; losing the speed bonus will stink, but whoever expected a tank to be fast, anyway? Full plate and a shield will get you a good AC, and a barbarian's d12 hit dice and extra rage hit points will give you mass of damage you can take.


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## GramercyRiff

I think you'll get varying opinions about what makes the best Tank.  Whatever people think is most important regarding AC, HP, saves, and damage is kinda trivial to me.  To be a good Tank you have to have the enemy focus on you as the main threat.  And you have to be able to survive those threats and eliminate/neutralize them as fast as possible.  Excel at these two and you'll do great as a Tank.

Now it may not be the best, but I like the Hammer of Moradin.  The Hammer exemplifies everything a Tank should be.  While not complicated, it does have a lot of abilities that range from situational to great.  It gives good fort and will saves and some pretty good abilities that boost damage and AC, not to mention the pretty good to awesome battlefield control abilities it's got, with DR/6 as the icing on the cake (and you're not a tree!).  I recommend it because you're thinking of going Paladin Dwarf.  Straight Paladin will qualify for it, as would Fighter/Cleric.  You have to be able to cast 2nd level divine spells to qualify as well as have Iron Will and Weapon Focus Warhammer.  It's pretty versatile in the options it allows with all the good abilities you get.  The Hammer of Moradin is in Player's Guide to Faerun.  And since it's based off of Moradin, it's not FR exclusive.  If you're in Faerun, or Gold Dwarf is allowed, I'd use that Dwarf race as you get -2 DEX instead of -2 CHA if you go the Paladin route.

There are some other PrC like Battlesmith and Deepwarden that can make you even more effective, but would complicate the build to be sure.


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## icedrake

Paladin/Crusader would be very tough, but the cha pentalty from dorfs is a bit of a pain.

You might want to consider a knight/crusader so you can pick up the challenge abilities and devoted spirit manuevers. You don't even really need to mutliclass much, just those to classes alone would be great things to work with. Throw in some fighter levels if you feel a bit straned for feats or a couple levels of a PrC for some extra boost, but I'd stick to those two classes. I'd try to keep a high IL level for your manuvers, there are a lot of higher level ones you'd want to have to maxiaize the pain from the crusader side.

You might even want not pick up one or two warblade levels for Iron Heart or Diamond Mind manvuers, you don't lose any ILs and its worth the small dip.


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## blargney the second

I was going to recommend crusader as well.  There are maneuvers and stances that really force enemies to pay attention to you, like Iron Guard's Glare.  A little multiclassing into knight is probably not a bad option for the Will saves alone.  I think a fun race would be dragonborn: extra Con gives boatloads of hps, and the breath weapon is just plain fun for someone who won't have loads of speed due to armour.


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## Wish

In part, what makes a good tank depends on what you're tanking for.  Not at the basic level (figure out how to take a hit and dish it out), but at a secondary level.

If you're tanking for a group that has a lot of high damage ranged options, you're going to need a little less offense, but some battlefield control might be in order (improved trip, for example).  If you're tanking for a group that includes a melee oriented rogue, you need some manueverability or tactical flexibility to help set up your buddy, but you also need to hit pretty hard, or they'll just ignore you and squish the rogue.  If you've got a group with a lot of folks who do secondary melee with solid defense (monks, combat clerics, and so forth) you can take a balanced approach since your party is also combat effective.


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## Iku Rex

Keifer113 said:
			
		

> I'd like to build a Tank for my party. I'm thinking High AC and High HP with good saves.
> 
> Does a Dwarf Paladin/Crusader sound good? What are the best builds.



What level? 



			
				Keifer113 said:
			
		

> Only the main rulebooks can be used, but I think most of the stuff in the Complete books are allowed.



Huh? That doesn't make any sense. You claim that "only the core rulebooks" can be used (PHB, MM, DMG), then you claim that "most of the stuff in the Complete books are allowed" and yet you've suggested a class form Book of Nine Swords (not core, not "Complete").


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## baudbard

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> Huh? That doesn't make any sense. You claim that "only the core rulebooks" can be used (PHB, MM, DMG), then you claim that "most of the stuff in the Complete books are allowed" and yet you've suggested a class form Book of Nine Swords (not core, not "Complete").




I believe the OP thinks WOTC material = Core


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## Endur

Best Tank Builds.  I agree with most of the comments above.

Dwarven Paladin/Dwarven Defender is very tough defensively, but has limited movement and offensive bonuses.

Dwarven Paladin/Hammer of Moradin has some very nice abilities.  Not quite as powerful on defense, but almost as good. And has offensive abliities.

Dwarven Fighter levels are also useful for extra feats, or racial substitution levels for fighter (levels 1, 2, & 8) have other useful abilities.


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## Felix

I like Dwarf Fighter/Pious Templar/Dwarven Defender

Combat Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Tower Shield
Uncanny Dodge
Mettle
Big-honking Will save


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## hanniball

If you're playing a Dwarven tank and have access to the Races of Stone sourcebook, I can hardly see passing up the Deepwarden class.  It's second level ability is golden for any high-con, melee build.  The "typical" entry is Ranger 3/Fighter 2.  However, you can easily pull off a Ranger 3/Paladin 2 prefix.  Of course, if you're not allowed to use RoS, than this is a rather moot point.

Thematically, I strongly prefer the Goad feat.  It is the quintessential "tank" feat, IMO, allowing you to control who the opposition targets, keeping them away from your more frail companions.  It's unfortunate that it hasn't worked well in my experience.  The save is typically easy to make, unless you're playing a Charisma focused build.

Either way...just my 2 cp


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## Votan

hanniball said:
			
		

> If you're playing a Dwarven tank and have access to the Races of Stone sourcebook, I can hardly see passing up the Deepwarden class.  It's second level ability is golden for any high-con, melee build.




Was it ever settled as to whether or not the armor's max DEX bonus applies to the deepwarden's CON substitution?  Because, if not, then it is by far the best tank (with all sorts of other great extras).


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## Presto2112

If you're going to stick with dwarf, I'd highly recommend taking levels in Dwarven Defender!

Two words.  Dee. Twelve.


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## Darklone

Play a halfling paladin. Noone expects the spirited charge of doom from a small dude who just ate more hits than a barbarian could take 

Get a high con and you'll have many hitpoints, your saves will rawk and your mount will keep you mobile (especially if you get a flying one later). Always carry a necklace of fireballs with you in case you get eaten.

Think about multiclassing with Rogue for a few levels.


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## Rackhir

Warforged Juggernaught is pretty good. You have some problems with healing (only repair construct spells work), but you get a boat load of immunities (to pretty much everything), d12 hd, and a bunch of cool charge/bull rush abilities.


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## hanniball

Votan said:
			
		

> Was it ever settled as to whether or not the armor's max DEX bonus applies to the deepwarden's CON substitution?  Because, if not, then it is by far the best tank (with all sorts of other great extras).




Custserve email response:


> Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast!
> 
> The Constitution modifier to AC is not subject to the max Dex modifier
> trait of any given armor. Good gaming!
> 
> *Please quote this email in any reply.*
> **************************************** ***
> Chris
> Customer Service Department
> Wizards of the Coast
> 1-800-324-6496
> **************************************** ***




Remember, it's CustServe, so grain of salt and all that.


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## Legildur

hanniball said:
			
		

> Custserve email response:
> 
> <some outrageous repy from Custserve>
> 
> Remember, it's CustServe, so grain of salt and all that.



LOL! Talk about broken! The new tank/AC build will no doubt include 2 levels of Deepwarden.....


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## Iku Rex

Hmm. CON to AC isn't restricted by maximum DEX to AC? What could they _possibly_ have been thinking? OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!


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## shilsen

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> Hmm. CON to AC isn't restricted by maximum DEX to AC? What could they _possibly_ have been thinking? OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!



 No, no - CustServe said that it isn't restricted. 

That, by all the laws of the universe, means that it absolutely and uncontrovertibly is restricted. 

Such are the mysterious ways of CustServe.


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## Magesmiley

I'd go with a dwarven fighter and aim for dwarven defender. 

To me, when playing a tank HP and AC are the most important things. The dwarven fighter by its very nature has a disgustingly high Fort save. Most reflex saves are only hp damage, which should be one of your fortes, so you can usually eat it on a bad reflex save. Will saves tend to be the achille's heel for tanks IMO. That and falling in a hole or water (I recommend boots of levitation for the latter).

However, sink most of your money, feats, and skills (remember that a dwarf in heavy armor can tumble, which ups your fighting defensive AC bonus) into improving AC primarily and HP as a seconadry focus. The two armor optimization feats, the 8th-level dwarven fighter substitution level, and battle plate from Races of Stone are worth 4 more AC. Take a tower shield. The cover can be handy at times.

I tend to favor a high intelligence tank which can use combat expertise (and improved) over a high dex one myself. I find at later levels the combat expertise bonus is worth more than the couple of points of AC you can get from DEX by using mithral armor. 

Just my take.


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## Quartz

Ftr 2 / Pal 4 / Kt 4 / DD 10 = much nastiness. 124 HP base at L20: 204 with Con 18, 224 Defending. Add 100 HP for CON 28 (+4 in increases, +6 item).  Good stats (in order) are Con, Str, and Cha.


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## IanB

I've been kicking around the idea of a knight/dwarven defender combination of some sort, but I haven't worked out a build.


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## RigaMortus2

I would like to vote for the Crusader as well.  Also, try to get some Damage Reduction, it will help 

Hmmm, Warforged (w/ Admantine Body) Crusader...  Can they effectively heal themselves with their maneuvers?  I think the limit on warforge healing is limited to the Conjuration (healing) sub school...


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## Particle_Man

Crusader has an edge in toughness, but Knight has that "save or you must attack me, not my friends" ability which helps mitigate one of the major defects of most tank builds: That the bad guy simply ignores/avoids/goes around/over/under the tank and attacks the tank's squishier allies.


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## blargney the second

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Crusader has an edge in toughness, but Knight has that "save or you must attack me, not my friends" ability which helps mitigate one of the major defects of most tank builds: That the bad guy simply ignores/avoids/goes around/over/under the tank and attacks the tank's squishier allies.



Crusaders have plenty of maneuvers that correspond to that ability: ie Iron Guard's Glare is a 1st level stance that imposes a -4 penalty to attacking your allies.  Between Devoted Spirit and White Raven, there's lots of stuff that give your enemies strong incentives to pay attention to the crusader rather than your chew-toy buddies.


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## Raspen

like the idea of a knight with goad, imp combat exp, allied defence from ShS

with good gear you can just bout never be hit

add resistence cloak and a spell strike weopen (waterdeep book) and you could get your saves up so you dont have to worry bout that eather


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