# Redesigning and re-branding EN World



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2002)

EN World's been the same for about a year now, and I feel the need to freshen things up.  It's started to sprawl, get messy etc.  Well - it started doing that a long time ago. 

Anyway... I had that recent site redesign contest, but I wasn't really inspired by any of the (admittedly good) offerings.  I'm seriously considering redesigning the whole thing from scratch.

I'm also very seriously considering rebranding the site.  Problem, is, I don't know what to.  I hate exotic, flowery names - simple and functional is the way I like it.  

So, what we're possibly looking at here is, essentially, saying goodbye to EN World and creating something new and fresh from the ashes.  The content will all be the same, of course (I'm not planning on losing anything).

There's no rush to do this - certainly not before Gen Con.  I'd welcome any ideas, thoughts, comments etc. that you might have.  Be as radical or as conservative as you like with these thoughts - I'm interested in hearing them all!   The only caveat - don't suggest any big new complicated feature, because I won't have either the time or the know-how to do any programming or coding.  

Anyway, let me know what you think.  When I get back from Gen Con I'll be making changes for certain (maybe even some before Gen Con, time permitting).

-Morrus

[Edit - since this thread started, it has turned into more than a discussion on layout etc.  I recommend that you take the time to read the whole thread to get a good picture of what's going on.  I realise it's a lot to read - sorry!]


----------



## dreamthief (Jul 21, 2002)

Well one thing I'd like to see would be consolidating some of the forums. Some of them are, well, dead. I think judicious use of [ tags ] to denote a particular topic or subject would help.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 21, 2002)

Hm...maybe if you do some sort of "Newspapery" look, with big headlines and then stories found with a click of the link. It could let you sort the news stories by categories...WotC News, d20 Publishers News, etc. A big database of all the articles ENWorld has covered.

Maybe even start doing comic strips, "special pieces," etc....

Prolly a good chunk of work, but just a thought. Since this is basically "d20 News," it'd certainly fit.


----------



## ATO_DM (Jul 21, 2002)

I don't have any bright ideas on site design, but I do have some ideas related to content which may in part be related to the design of the site. I have followed this site since it was created and combined with the d20 reviews site. Basically, I agree that the content has kind of become a little less focused and the site needs to be freshened up a bit (no offense intended, if any is taken).

Anyway, I'd like to see the site break down like so:

-Community
-D20 News
-New Products
-Reviews of Products
-Player's Info Area
-DM resource and info area
-Archives (Black Pages)
-Links

Basically I think it would be a great boon to the site if the site itself had Resources, Visual Aides, etc. I really love knowing when products are coming out and what is happening news wise, but the resource area just seems like an extension of the Links page. I have also noticed that there are a lot of players on the boards that are fairly new to the Role-playing experience and I think that Player and DM info pages would be very helpful to them (and myself as well).

I hope at least some of what I had to say is helpful, and that your post was intended to be responded to in this manner. I'm excited to see a new style to the site after Gen Con.


----------



## hong (Jul 21, 2002)

"Morrusworld" springs to mind.


Hong "all rides at Morrusworld 20% off this weekend!" Ooi


----------



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2002)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> *Hm...maybe if you do some sort of "Newspapery" look, with big headlines and then stories found with a click of the link. It could let you sort the news stories by categories...WotC News, d20 Publishers News, etc. A big database of all the articles ENWorld has covered. *




I think that qualifies as a "big new complicated feature".


----------



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2002)

ATO_DM said:
			
		

> *Basically, I agree that the content has kind of become a little less focused and the site needs to be freshened up a bit (no offense intended, if any is taken).*




None taken!  I agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## reiella (Jul 21, 2002)

Personally would like to see it stay ENWorld, nostalgia and all.


----------



## GuardianLurker (Jul 21, 2002)

Morrus -

I wouldn't consider rebranding the site - the EN awards are still in their infancy, and you'd need to change the name to match, which would probably hurt their continued growth as a "serious" award.

That said, you could probably get by with changing the banner name to something like "3EN" for "3rd Edition News".

Personally, I like the look, but change is relatively good. From the sounds of it, your real problem with the current site seems to be its organization (or lack thereof). I can't help with the pretty graphics (no artist me), but as for organization...

Here are my suggestions :
1) Retain the daily news on the splash page.
2) Retain the "Product Sidebar", but reduce the graphics from all upcoming releases to a "d20 New Releases" (current week maybe?) and a randomly selected product from the various top 20 product lists. A kind of "Have you read?" reminder about good stuff people might miss. (You can see an example of this at http://www.nocturnis.net)
3) Consider adding a few more "levels" to your site's tree. Right now, you essentially only have two (maybe 3) levels. This will let you "group" things a little more broadly. As top level divisions, I'd recommend 

-"Community" (the boards and chat)
-"Products" (Upcoming releases, shop link, new products, reviews)
-"Industry Resources" (lists of publishers, adverting info for the site, etc. You already include this from the reviews link, but it's probably a good idea to make it more visible)
-"Fan Resources" (hosted sites, archives, player info, gm info, etc)
-"Site Admin" (you know what goes here. News archives as well, I'd say)

BTW, I'm glad to see the new server is working so well. It's really nice.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2002)

That's the sort of thing I'm looking for - thanks, Guardian.  Keep those ideas a'comin', folks!


----------



## Khan the Warlord (Jul 21, 2002)

I could never imagine a name change.

/me shudders at the thought of thinking that thought... er, you know.

But I do agree with Guardian -- awesome ideas.


----------



## Number47 (Jul 21, 2002)

Well, I didn't enter your site redesign contest, but now I think I may have to throw my hat into the ring. I will try to send you a link for a concept in the next week or two. Just a rough draft. Basically, I can show it better than I can explain it.

How do you like the name "20 Times"? Times as in a newspaper, 20 as in, well, you know.

It's either that, or Little Gnomeo's Funland.


----------



## Sulimo (Jul 21, 2002)

ATO_DM said:
			
		

> * Basically, I agree that the content has kind of become a little less focused and the site needs to be freshened up a bit (no offense intended, if any is taken). *




Personally, I like the content being a little less focused. But then, I am a gamer who whilst likes 3e, am one who's interest spread a bit wider and thus I'm happy or would like 'Morrusworld' to spread its focus a little wider - off course it always should mainly focus on 3E. A bit like the 'old' Dragon where whilst it was mainly a TSR focused 'zine did go into areas outside that scope at times.

The same with areas that whilst arent strictly roleplaying, are related areas - SF / fantasy TV, film & books for example. Again I dont want to see MorrusWorld loose its main focus of 3E roleplaying, but this kind of thing can complement this well.


----------



## Oracular Vision (Jul 21, 2002)

No name could be as good as 
"The Last Homely House"...

please DON'T create more sublayers, human interface-wise, it is best to have three layers exactly, and that's pretty much what you have. I think the "Upcoming releases" could be on their own page with a link, that's not something that changes even every week...

I agree that you could have about three message boards, general, rules, and everything else...

Three is the number of the counting!


----------



## mattcolville (Jul 21, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *So, what we're possibly looking at here is, essentially, saying goodbye to EN World and creating something new and fresh from the ashes. *




I was just thinking that you should do the exact same thing.

A: the community of ENworld has changed a lot since its inception, mostly due to the servers moving around and people having to 'start all over,' which—in my experience—people are only willing to do so many times. 

B: Eric Noah isn't the guy who runs this any more, unless I miss my guess. So the EN in ENworld doesn't make a lot of sense, and never did if you presume the site is a D&D3 site, as opposed to Eric's personal site. 

I think this is still the premire D&D site which, ipso facto, means it's the premiere RPG site. But I think it could be improved by A: changing the name to something that means "The premire D&D3 site," and B: consolidating the content on the front page. There's a shahitload of crap on there now and it's daunting to a new user. There are really three things the site provides. A: a community and messageboard, B: reviews and C: resources for D&D players. I'd try and stick with that. A front page that proivided new news and links to the reviews, resources, and messageboards.

Now, changing the name means alienating some prospective users who, looking for ENworld, won't be able to find it. But your old brand, ENworld, isn't strong. A new, strong brand will help you in the long run. The longer you wait, the more damaging it is to change your brand. Waiting this long, obviously, is bad but it's not as bad as waiting another year.


----------



## Harlock (Jul 21, 2002)

Mr. Morrus, Sir,

     Nostalgia being what it is to me, I'd prefer to keep the site name simple, or simply, the same.  Maybe you could devise a new meaning for the EN part of it as another poster suggested.  I have some marketing background and I know a wholesale name change dips severely into brand recognition as it were.  But, a simple change that stayed true to the original would not deter too many folks.  Also, if the URL can stay the same, and ENnies can be ENnies it helps you out, I should think.

     As far as changing formats on the news page I am torn.  I am used to how you have it set up.  I get headlines right away.  If it is about something I am not interested in I can simply choose to skim it or skip it, but most times, I devour it.  Next you list WotC updates.  Keeping with tradition, they started the 3e revolution and so many consider this the head newsmaker and I think most glance at it as a minimum.  In other words, I dig the splash page.  Headlines, then blow by blow what is going on all over the d20 world.  This is the main reason I began to use your site as my daily jump into the WWW.

     The reason I have continued to use your site on a daily basis is the community that is fostered here.  I am a #dnd3e on chat.psionics.net IRC junkie.  I consider most regular visitors friends and we talk a lot about our games and how to make them better.  These message boards are equally important to me in that regard.  I get more good information from these sources than from some of the books I have shelled out bucks for.  And, that's the main reason I donate to you when I can.  It's simply worth it for my games.  So, I would like to see a greater emphasis placed on community news.  I don't know how that translates in web design: bigger buttons, flashy colors, just more prominenet links?  No clue, as I am not web saavy.  

     So, please keep up the good work.  If at all possible, keep the name similar, even if you assign new meaning to it.  Some minor reformatting of the splash page may be beneficial, but it's not too bad now.  Please do something to impress upon people how important this community is, and that by getting bigger and more influential, we only make it stronger and a kind of place where publishers want to come and discuss with us our games.  Because they know where the people are is where their money is.  By doing this I think you can satisfy your own desire to freshen up and excercise a bit more control, continue to please your current fan base, and also, to hopefully encourage new and different people to become a part of this growing game and community.  Best of Luck to you, Mr. Morrus, and thank you for such a wonderful resource thus far.


----------



## Eternalknight (Jul 21, 2002)

I think changing the name would be a mistake.  I've never been a fan of the name "EN World", but it is well known, having appearances in Polyhedron and (I think...)Dragon.  Changing it would cause confusion.

However, should the name change occur, "D20 News" or something simple like that would be effective.


----------



## ForceUser@Home (Jul 21, 2002)

My first instinct is to leave the name as-is. It may not be Eric's site anymore, but he's the guy who started it all and I think it's appropriate to give credit where credit is due. That said, you've done an immense amount of work for this community, Morrus, so if you did decide to change things I'd support that. My suggestions:


Keep the color scheme. It's easy on the eyes.
Go hog wild with consolidating the front page. Yeah, it's getting large, and streamlined is preferred.
If you do change the name, I like short, flavorful titles, such as *Dungeonworld* or *Dragonrealm*.


----------



## Eternalknight (Jul 21, 2002)

By the way, shouldn't this be in Meta?


----------



## bing (Jul 21, 2002)

I’ve never had any problem with the layout or content of the site. What I do think needs to be changed is your marketing strategy. Looking at your site traffic, you could increase your revenues significantly by a few changes in how and where you display your banners. I have always thought that the number of clicks on banners was very low for the traffic you receive. 
Just my 2 cents


----------



## Harlock (Jul 21, 2002)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> *By the way, shouldn't this be in Meta?   *




Funny thing you should ask that. See, when you make the rules, you know any loopholes inherently, because they are your loopholes after all.  And, you don't have to share them with anyone.  I know Mr. Morrus has a good reason to post this here!

*cough*because-this-forum-gets-way-more-views-per-day-than-meta*cough*

Sorry, think I swallowed a bug!


----------



## hong (Jul 21, 2002)

Harlock said:
			
		

> *
> *cough*because-this-forum-gets-way-more-views-per-day-than-meta*cough*
> *




Oh, I don't know about that.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2002)

ForceUser@Home said:
			
		

> you do change the name, I like short, flavorful titles, such as *Dungeonworld* or *Dragonrealm*.




Goodness, no!  I hate that type of title!


----------



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2002)

Just to clarify something - I'm not viewing this as a "business strategy" or trying to attract new users.  I'm more worried about making it more useful to _existing_ users (who are the important ones) and scratching a personal aesthetic itch,


----------



## Moon_Goddess (Jul 21, 2002)

I'm VERY against a name change.       ENWorld has name regocnition whether you think that or not.     That's why PA joined forces with you for the awards.

While I agree the site may need some reorginization, or possibly even some thematic color changes (which I wouldn't agree with, I like the current colors but that's just personal opinion)

The one thing I woudl never do is change the name, as you said it would be like tearing down ENWorld and building something new in its place.    And that new things simply wouldn't be the same, you'ld lose part of what makes ENWorld what it is, history.

And really do you want to lose all the casual veiwers who have heard of ENworld but don't pay enough attention to understand the name change?


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Jul 21, 2002)

Salutations,

I vote for keeping the name as it is- I am easily confused. 

As I flip through my books, I think a great resource would be a listing of what book has which PrC/feat/spell. 

Of course, that kind of undertaking gives me a headache just thinking about it...

You know, this topic along with the recent topic on reporting on non-d20 rpg's has got me really curious about what you see developing at EN World.

Have we been losing regular visitors? I see a lot of new people on the message boards, so I have trouble seeing that as it.

FD


----------



## Shadowdancer (Jul 21, 2002)

I'm also against a name change. Mainly because I just bought an EN World T-shirt, and I don't want it to be outdated. 

One thing about this site that has always bugged me, and I guess it's just a personal preference thing, but on your main page, when you have a link to another site and you click on that link, it takes you there directly rather than open another window for that link (does that make sense?).

So that, after I investigate that link and want to return to EN World, I have to either hit the back button or go to my bookmarks again and click on the EN World link. If the link had opened another window, I could just close that window. Or jump back and forth between the two.

Almost all other websites I frequent use the new-windows-for-links method, and I daresay it's what most people are used to.


----------



## Zappo (Jul 21, 2002)

I, too, vote for keeping the name. It has valuable brand recognition.


----------



## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 21, 2002)

I vote for changing the name to 3EN World, which is still recognizably enough like the old name but makes more sense as an abbreviation for Third Edition News than Eric Noah World (seeing as how Eric doesn't run it anymore, and the name was never catchy to begin with, drawing confusing cries of "huh?" from people unfamiliar with the site from when Eric ran it). 

Third Edition News (3EN) sounds much more like a professional site than a fan site, IMO, which is what it has been turning into anyway, what with awards, an online catalog, celebrity guest chats, etc.

I think the abbreviation (3EN) would be pronounced "thren"!


----------



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *Have we been losing regular visitors? I see a lot of new people on the message boards, so I have trouble seeing that as it.
> 
> *




Quite the opposite.  The site gets more popular all the time.  As I mentioned, this is about aesthetics and organisation, not traffic.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 21, 2002)

I'll add a vote for 3eN World ("Three-En World"?), it sounds like a perfectly logical growth of the original sites (both Eric's Third Edition News and the original EN World).

As for look, have you considered the "book-look" of oh-so-many d20 book? Y'know, a jewel or two in the corner, a black/leather background... stuff... 

And that paves the way for the GenCon/3eN World Threenies!


----------



## Angelsboi (Jul 21, 2002)

i agree with alot of these (namely getting rid of dead forums and using tag notes [Plot Help], [OT], etc, etc to denote specific topics.

Also EN World is very nostaligic but since its being redone, name it something with a phoenix.  After all you said it.  Somethoing from out of the ashes ...


----------



## absurdum (Jul 21, 2002)

how about you just call the site d20reviews  
also for the new look for the webpage how about black on a white or other hig contrast colour(high contrast to black that is). Also try to elimanate the need for excesive scrolling on the page, somekind of nav bar somewhere, that has all pervious articles cataloged so you only see todays article when you goto the page. Would a flash site be out of the question, no animations, just for easy browsing and navigation and that clean look that it provides. Just some ideas.


----------



## mirzabah (Jul 21, 2002)

I'm neutral on the name change thing. EN World is familiar. On a side note, some people seem to think EN stands for Eric Noah - is that right? My understanding was that EN World was not at all related to Eric Noah's 3rd Edition News, but Eric did hand the baton on to Morrus when he decided to attempt to get his life back...

Anyway, I think redesigning the site is a good idea. I've never been fond of the black background thing. While it would require some development effort, I think taking a leaf from the gaming report's book and switching to a content management system (CMS) like slashdot or phpNuke could be a good idea. This would let you open up the front page articles to a band of "lieutenants", though I would advise against gifting post privileges to all and sundry (which many CMSs seem to prefer). phpNuke is a good, free PHP-based CMS which could be adapted with minimal effort. I've tinkered with it in the past, if you're interested I could set up a simple test site for people to play with. My time is a bit limited, but between us all I'm sure we could develop the necessary custom modules (reviews mainly). The forums would be best left as is (with maybe some cosmetic changes).


----------



## Aristotle (Jul 21, 2002)

I agree with what was said about the EN awards. If you change the name, you really need to consider names that keep "EN" in them so that the award name continues to make sense. I think this is the biggest issue with rebranding.

I like the sound of "Third Edition News", with a catchy "3EN" logo somewhere on the page.


----------



## Eternalknight (Jul 21, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *Salutations,
> 
> As I flip through my books, I think a great resource would be a listing of what book has which PrC/feat/spell.
> 
> ...




[shameless plug]Check out DM Buddy [/shameless plug]


----------



## Painfully (Jul 21, 2002)

I'm voting to keep the name EN World.  After all, GenCon started in Lake Geneva, WI and nobody would dare change the name of GenCon just because it was moved to Milwaukee, or is moving to Indiana next year.  The original fanbase and name recognition was far too important to risk losing any of it along with a name change!

Just like TSR no longer stood for whatever it stood for.  Tactical Simulations and Rules?  The brand recognition was there before anybody cared to analyze the name.  

People who don't know the name will learn to know what it stands for.  The real fans will come here regardless of the name but the loss of nostalgia if the name changes will be detrimental to the "brand" we've already grown into, and I think, become quite satisfied with.

Don't underestimate the people who have grown with ENWorld.  Eric Noah certainly deserves to have the name of ENWorld kept alive, if for nothing else, as a tribute for his contribution to the community he brought together.  In the long run the site name may become a curiosity to new members, but the people who come here know why they're here, and each time they say the name, they'll be saying thank you to the man who began it all even if they don't know it.


----------



## dema (Jul 21, 2002)

Morrus-

What is the major issues with the updating?  I saw one DnD fan site that used frames and menus very well.  I admit the work would be alot at first, but the interface was great.

each frameset had it's own menu on the left side, and on top. I'll try to find this site. damn can't find it.


Basically the main web items will be listed on the left side. and subtopics along the top.  The top menu will change when you click on a side link.  the big problem i see with this is adding more topics can be a pain.  

As someone kinda suggested why not just look to the NYtimes, or some other NEWS site for a lay out example?

As for EN world, name thing did I start that?  

I too like the current color scheme, and lay out, though I usually only read the front page, and nowadays the message boards.

-dem


----------



## Archangel (Jul 21, 2002)

*Keep the name*

I vote to keep the name EN World.

I was saddened the day 3rd Edition News closed and nervous when EN World took over.  It may have had the same content, but was not familiar.  I left the news for about 4 or 5 months.

Eventually, I tried out EN World again.  I have been visiting almost daily ever since.  I like the name, the banner, the logo, etc.

There are a lot of things in the world that may not be the most colorful, descriptive, or accurate.  Many of these are still very popular.  There are companies that continue under the name of the founder (not exactly the same in this case, but close) even though he may be dead and the family completely removed from the company (heck, at least Eric is still alive and involved).  I also do not know Eric personally, but he does not seem to be an egotistical, self-promoting, buffoon as are so many how attain name recognition.  I think we should the name in the spotlight (even if it is only in a small corner of the Interverse).

Other posters have already stated recognition, logo-bearing products, and nostalgia so I have nothing new to add.

Now, I am not a wrestling fan, but I have watched in the past.  When I heard that they had changed to WWE (from WWF, this happened somewhat recently I believe, but am always last to find things out anyway) I couldn't help but cringe a bit.  Now, admittingly, I am smart enough to realize it is still the same product but I can't help but look at it skeptically as an upstart new company.  

Change for the sake of change is not always good.  Since you have not stated that you dislike EN World, and you have stated that this is not a marketing strategy you have no real reason to change the name.  This is not being clamored for by the masses.  Seeing the sight promoted by a Dragon Magazine article only supports my opinion of EN World as the best d20 resource on the Net.

Feel free to change the layout if you must.  I am not a very organized person, so have not problems with the current layout as it seems very organized to me.  Also, any change will have the initial effect of causing me to relearn what was natural (not the same as learning something new, and only exceptable if the change is an improvement upon the original).

So, in closing, I will say thank you for coming to the community as a whole for reactions/opinions on your idea before making any changes.  I think that we all appreciate it (I know I do).

My 2 cents worth (whew, with inflation and all, I really should charge more)...


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 21, 2002)

Hey folks!

Some of this discussion sprang from a little chat Russ and I had last night.  I'm the one who proposed the name change idea, though I'm actually absolutely neutral on it (I'm pleased and flattered to have the site named after me, but I also think that if a name change is going to happen better sooner than later).  

As far as a site redesign, it's perfectly natural that as the site grows and evolves that the original design won't work as well.  I would like to lobby *against* frames -- I think they're icky.    Other than that, nothing special to add that hasn't already been thought of by our super-genius community.


----------



## UniversalMonster (Jul 21, 2002)

*Whatever you do,*

just don't sell the site to Hasbro. 

Hah!


----------



## Archangel (Jul 21, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *...I'm the one who proposed the name change idea...*




I new it, trying to escape the public spotlight.  Well, now that you are famous, you are also a rolemodel and your actions will impact millions of people for generations to come.  It's just like today's media darlings to try to evade their responsibilities.  What will I tell my gaming group?  What will I tell my children?  What will I tell my dog?  Please, think about the NPCs...the poor NPCs (sob)...how will they go on..choke...er..without you (I think I am ok now).


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 21, 2002)

Even with a name change for the site, the name of the awards wouldn't have to change. The ENnies has its own name recognition by now, I think, and I doubt anyone would get all confused about why they have that name. Take the Oscars for example - the name has nothing to do with the organization giving out the awards.


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: Whatever you do,*



			
				Peter said:
			
		

> *just don't sell the site to Hasbro.
> 
> Hah! *




HasbroWorld!  The awards could be called The Hassies!


----------



## alsih2o (Jul 21, 2002)

*name change?*

while i am not either for or against a name change, it seems to me that in a community as small and tight knit as the d20 one, any name change wil be rolled with and forgotten in 2-6 weeks.

 leomunds secure server?
 mordenkainens misc. ?
 bigbys grasp of d20?

 how about a suggestion- i know this is everyones favotrite site, but how about letting morrus and the "gang" know what other sites y'all like, thereby allowing him to view all the possibilities. after throwing out anything that reeks of hours of fancy code writing there would be a remaining pile of 'flavor' fromwhich to base his efforts.

 i, personally, think several large dice on the front page representing the various sections would be cool- a d20 takes you too reviews, a d6 goes to forums and a d10 for news....yada yada. maybe a cool "rolling dice" sound when you clicked on one.

 but lets face facts, poor design, bad graphics and all traffic buttons being labeled "i smell like camel feet" and this would still be THE site..... it's the mood, dude


----------



## Archangel (Jul 21, 2002)

I don't visit any other gaming related sites.  I only have time for this site, and a news/sports sight (usually cnn or espn).

Not much help here.


----------



## jollyninja (Jul 21, 2002)

this is the only gaming site i frequent. the only other site i go to regularly is theonion.com. other then that, i just share files with winmx and check my e-mail unless there is something specific i am looking for.

as long as i was told about the name change, i would probably still come here. as for a completley redesigned look, unless it was horribly irritating (text and background similar colours or some such gaffe) i'd still be here.


----------



## alsih2o (Jul 21, 2002)

to clarify, i meant other sites, not other gaming sites....but folks, i imagine mo-man needs only a short list (if he isn't groaning over this suggestion anyway) so, please, 1 each....be nice!


----------



## Darkness (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: Whatever you do,*



			
				EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> HasbroWorld!  The awards could be called The Hassies! *



Huskies?


----------



## Umbran (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Whatever you do,*



			
				Darkness said:
			
		

> *Huskies?  *




No, more likely the Hassles  

I think Morrus is quite within his rights to change the name if he wants, especially given Mr. Noah's blessing.  While I think having the history there and plain is a good thing, and the name recognition is valuable, I don't think a name change will kill anything in the long run.

Depending on what you're planning to change it to, you might consider some form of transition stage.  When big corporations change names, they tend to go through a period when they display both the new and the old names, to help transfer the name recognition.  

If you really do want a change the, "3rd Edition News/3EN" has the benefit of keeping some aspect of the current name, which is nice.


----------



## javadragon (Jul 21, 2002)

*Name Change?*

[p]I was visiting these boards when _"c'mon august"_ wasn't just a signature, it was a mindset  I stopped reregistering a few boards back, but this thread has convinced me to come out of lurker mode.[/p]
[p]First let me say that I think changing the name from EN World would be a mistake. However, I have no problem with changing what the EN stands for. How about "The *E*verything D20 *N*ews". As the name suggests I would like to see this site broaden (a little more) out to cover all things D20.[/p]
Edit: How do I do a paragraph on these boards? it's not [p][/p].


----------



## bondetamp (Jul 21, 2002)

mirzabah said:
			
		

> *phpNuke could be a good idea.*




Or vbPortal, which I believe is PHPNuke's new name (I might be wrong, but they _are_ almost identical).

It is about as difficult to use and modify as this forum, users can log in and change their personal layout, etc. It also looks rather similar (if you tilt your head just so and squint a little bit), so there shouldn't be _too_ many old users roaming the English countryside with torches and pitchforks.


----------



## CrazyMage (Jul 21, 2002)

Reorganize for all I care, but keep the name.  I side with the genius that brought up GenCon--who cares that it's not in Lake Geneva anymore?  The name keeps alive some of the history.  So what if Eric Noah no longer runs the ship; he is the Original Prime Mover--plus I like the potential for great obscurity centuries from now when people mind-link to the Net and ponder, "What was ENWorld?"
Though 3EN World isn't so bad...


----------



## Mark (Jul 21, 2002)

DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *I'm VERY against a name change.       ENWorld has name regocnition whether you think that or not.     That's why PA joined forces with you for the awards.
> 
> While I agree the site may need some reorginization, or possibly even some thematic color changes (which I wouldn't agree with, I like the current colors but that's just personal opinion)
> 
> ...






			
				Painfully said:
			
		

> *I'm voting to keep the name EN World.  After all, GenCon started in Lake Geneva, WI and nobody would dare change the name of GenCon just because it was moved to Milwaukee, or is moving to Indiana next year.  The original fanbase and name recognition was far too important to risk losing any of it along with a name change!
> 
> Just like TSR no longer stood for whatever it stood for.  Tactical Simulations and Rules?  The brand recognition was there before anybody cared to analyze the name.
> 
> ...




Darwin and Painfully sum up my opinion pretty damned well.

Please keep the name.  You will be losing a lot of name recognition if you don't.  The colors are fine and familiar, ain't broke don't fix those.  The news page could be less cluttered and the subsequent pages streamlined.  I imagine there are a lot of old links that no longer function.  You should start a two week link party.  Sticky a thread to the top of all forums and ask people to scour all of the site pages for bad links and report them in that thread.  Remove the bad links and names of other places that no longer exist.  That would go a long way to streamlining the site, I'd bet.

Good luck with whatever you decide and we'll all be along for the ride.


----------



## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 21, 2002)

OK, as a traditionalist, I like the name, but if Morrus wants to change it, great.  Sometimes, change is good.     And changing what the *EN* stands for does both, and doesn't make t-shirt obsolete immediately.  

My biggest concern is "layers" - please, *no more layers* in any re-design!  I absolutely can not stand having to click through several levels to get to the content.  Three levels or less--anything else is too annoying.

Whatever you decide, Morrus, thanks for keeping this site running.  It's invaluable, no matter what it's called!


----------



## Painfully (Jul 21, 2002)

So now I suppose we'll trade in our name for something more generic and tacky, like "D20 News."  Blah!


----------



## Darklance (Jul 21, 2002)

Keep the name. Its simple and easy to use in conversation. Also, its gaining some recognition so  people actually know what your talking about.


----------



## fimp (Jul 21, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Goodness, no!  I hate that type of title!  *




Hmm, then what dou you think about something like "Moradin" or "Moradins Hammer". 
It may scare of all others than dwarves, but...


----------



## fimp (Jul 21, 2002)

Oh, and advertise more for the EN World RPG Shop. I didnt know it existed untill recently, though i have been using EN World for ½ a year!


----------



## Trevalon Moonleirion (Jul 21, 2002)

I dunno...I really sort of like EN World as the title.  You can change aroudn the site as much as you want, but keep the title and the content.


----------



## reapersaurus (Jul 21, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *I'm more worried about making it more useful to existing users (who are the important ones) and scratching a personal aesthetic itch, *



Scratch your self on your own time, Morrus.  

Seriously, though:
Unless you are a qualified webmaster, than I really don't think your personal aesthetic opinion should be paramount here.

That might sound blunt, but think about it:

You're advocating changing the look of something, when any change would require someone else's efforts to pull off.

At the same time, you have repeatedly pointed out to us that you dislike any change that costs you administrative time.

Well, a change strictly for your personal "aesthetics" (I don't recall seeing anyone else mention a concern) WOULD cost you time.

LOTS of time.

As to a name change, I guess you're within your rights, but I'd personally vote against it. Your words on the ENWorld change to you are still vaguely in my mind (I beieve you said the site should without a doubt Stay the Same Name!).

The reorg of the News Page would be welcome.
I have NEVER liked the layout, and always found it cumbersome.

Morrus - if you have recently acquired webmaster of server admin skills, please disregard the first point of this post.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2002)

Thanks guys.

Could we move away from the title, though, and more towards redesign?  

I'm not keen on anything like PHP-Nuke (I think it's soulless).  I hear a few people saying that they'd like the site to be no more than 3 layers deep (and, conversely, others who have said that they'd like fewer options on the main page which would probaly lead to more layers).

Reorganisation is fairly important, because the site is quite a mess right now. It could be structured far better.  Of course, without losing any of the content, a fairly clever site map would be needed.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2002)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Scratch your self on your own time, Morrus.
> 
> Seriously, though:
> Unless you are a qualified webmaster, than I really don't think your personal aesthetic opinion should be paramount here.
> ...




This _is_ my time.   Why don't you leave the decisions on how I spend my time to me, eh?  As opposed to trying to tell me what I think.



> You're advocating changing the look of something, when any change would require someone else's efforts to pull off.




Really?  You obviously know more about it that I do!  Could you share the name of this kindly assistant of mine, so that I might start assigning him tasks?

Seriously, though - what _are_ you talking about?  The change will be implemented by me.  It won't involve any complex databases or anything (because that's beyond me) but why on earth does that preclude an html redesign?

Besides, with the great sprawling mess that the site has become, rearranging it will save me vast amounts of time in the long-run.


----------



## Archangel (Jul 21, 2002)

uh...uh...wow.  

I am afraid to offend now, but anyway...

I would like to say that 3 layers is probably a good guideline.  I know that some of the flexibility and options may be lost, but most people in the world these days are fairly busy and already bombarded by work, family, medie, hobbies, etc.  Too many layers or too much complexity and it will take a person longer to get to the content they want.  When that happens, hard decisions may have to be made and well a functional vehicle that everyone can use is probably more necessary than a luxury vehicle that only a few have the time or gumption to use.  More bells and whistles are not always better when only used by 10% of the community.

Another thing - Reapersaurus obviously thought that you had extra assistance with the site.  His opinions on this subject, while blunt and misinformed were asked for (as were the rest of ours).  I would feel bad enough had I made that mistake and been corrected in a polite way, let alone being told in the tone that was taken (the use of exclamation marks and the wording looked an awful like like you were offended and lashed out).  As Furn_Darkside is fond of saying (usually as an apology for a perceived harsh response) - tone is lost on the boards, but that still seemed somewhat harsh (I've seen worse).

I do not know how you are taking our opinions or if it is what you expected, but don't make us feel bad for giving them.

P.S. - I am not defending Reapersaurus (heck dinosaurs with scythes can probably defend themselves), but am instead defending myself and others who have made misinformed statements and feel bad enough without having to be scolded.


----------



## XCorvis (Jul 21, 2002)

Morrus,

IMO, the only way you're going to REDUCE the amount of maintanence on the site is if you use databases. Plain old HTML is more time consuming. If you can get a complex system setup (which you only have to do once) you can reduce the amount of work you need to do on a daily basis to just entering content. You wouldn't necessarily even have to format things, it could be done automatically. That would also make lieutennants a lot easier to handle.

Granted, this is not my forte and I understand resources are limited, but site maintenance code like slash (used on slashdot) is highly customizable. It might be worth looking in to a bit more.

My advice, however, is to figure out how you want the site to look and behave, then go looking for ways to implement it.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Jul 21, 2002)

First, I vote for keeping the name EN World.  But it's just a name, it's not what brings people here.  Do what you will.

I'm really not fond of the right hand navbar.  Everything on that bar can go on the left without too much of a change in design.  It has the added benefit of making the main part of the page (the news part) a little less cramped and a little more prominent.  On the same vein, you could probably remove the top navbar as well, and put that on the left if necessary, but I think it looks good where it is.

I like the colors of the site, it's not an eyesore, like black on white could be.  You should keep that, IMO.

Someone mentioned opening links in a new window.  Personally, I don't like this at all.  You can easily open links in a new window by right clicking and choosing the option.  If I wanted stuff in a new window, I could put it there.  I think it's completely unnecessary.

The site would be much easier to manage with something more than html (like the CMS system someone mentioned above), and if you have the resources I would strongly encourage considering that option, even if it means relying on someone else to do the coding.


----------



## Vaxalon (Jul 21, 2002)

> So, what we're possibly looking at here is, essentially, saying goodbye to EN World and creating something new and fresh from the ashes.




*NO*

Leave it ENWorld.

Redesign yes, but leave the name, goofy as it is.


----------



## GuardianLurker (Jul 21, 2002)

*Wow...*

Morrus -

despite Eric's reluctance (something I share), I have to admit that the *proper* use of frames (mainly as top level nav bars) works very well. The site still needs to be navigable without them, of course, but it can provide a great deal of unification. If you use the readily available Javascripts, you can even set up a faux menu system from the nav bar (like M$ and Sun do), though I'm not sure the site is complex enough to need it.

Another point in favor of a framed nav bar, is that it will promote some of the more "hidden" links; how many people actually visit the reviews page through the main page link at the top, compared to those who go directly to it? People gravitate towards the obvious.

As for the level issue, as I've been reading through this, I was struck that most of the reorganization probably won't involve "demoting" groups deeper into the tree, but "promoting" them upwards (probably to the second tier). 

However, I'll also point out to the nay-sayers that the "deepest" tree currently is the community boards, which is exactly three deep (four if you count going to the actual posts). Everything else is currently "shallower". A perfect example of where adding levels (making the tree "deeper") would make a huge difference is the Links page (http://www.d20reviews.com/dndlinks.htm); putting each of those link groupings in a separate page would make the whole much more digestible. (As an aside, you may want to consider a "web ring" especially for the fan sites you list.)

As for the "unifying graphics" concept, I think it works very well (having used it to great effect on my site), though I'm leery of Dice - especially spinning dice, and especially spinning dice with sound. The "gems" concept would work well, though, IMO.

One final point to consider - this is (obviously) a content site; not something people come to see lots of pretty graphics but to get information. As such, it's going to be *much* more static than your average site, in terms of look & feel/navigation. At least, once you get it setup right. If you've gotten it to the point where all you're doing is providing the content (which I'm guessing you have), congratulations! You've done more than many, many professional web mavens, who *dream* of sites that run themselves.


----------



## SHARK (Jul 21, 2002)

Greetings!

Well, Morrus, you are the boss, as it is your show here. Still, I would suggest that reorganization and such would be fine--but please, keep the name, and the color scheme. EN-World, though odd-sounding to the neophyte, has a history, and it means something. It pays tribute to Eric Noah, and is also a name that a great many of us have grown quite fond of. I like the color scheme--it is easy on the eyes, and good for reading a lot of. I've seen other sites, with other colours, and none of them have the best color scheme like here at EN-World!

Reorganization is Good.

Keep the name EN-World!

Keep the color-scheme!

Just some thoughts my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Protean Sifter (Jul 21, 2002)

*The Opinions of a Peon*

As I understand brandishing a new brand  would provide an oppurtunity to establish a new 'feel' to the masses of EN World. As one of the less vocal individuals on the board I have recently moved back in status, retreating to Those That Lurk. While friendlier than most online communities, I believe a change in atmosphere might provide the Community with a refreshed perspective. The rift between current EN Worlders and those looking to become part of the community bespeaks of stagnancy.
Giving up gaming altogether had been on the brain through a combination of this recent shift and the current lack of players in my small town. 
*Apology: Strong Opinions above were not meant to insult anyone in anyway. My opinions lack humbleness at times. * 
      Without further ado I now present some Selfish Suggestions . 
     SS #1 :Articles on the Art of DM'ing: As a novice Dungeon Master I advocate the needs of all others like me. A series of Articles from the more experienced members of our community would fill a real void in the masses of cyberspace. While there is plenty of advice out there Practical Advice is of exceeding rarity.  A semi-novice voice would also be of help.Support for Making Our Games Better  is all that I ask.
     SS #2 : Fewer forums: As mentioned before by some fellow patrons, portions of the message boards are dying out simply because of the amount of division present. I would like to advocate keeping division of a General,Rules, and Storyhour forums while allowing for a [tag] system. Anymore breakup may lead to either factions such as the case at  Monte Cook's boards with the seperate DM/Player boards or excessive foraging such as case with EN world's current boards.
      SS #3: A New Look: Simply to reclaim that sense of wonder I once had when I started visiting this site and these boards 2 years ago.
      SS #4: A Personal Copyeditor: I really need to learn subtlety. Until that day some poor sap to edit my posts may be necessary. Eric's Grandmother must have a file on me.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 21, 2002)

Archangel said:
			
		

> *uh...uh...wow.
> 
> I am afraid to offend now, but anyway...
> 
> ...




Well, reapersaurus has a lot of history with EN World, wherein he has often been something of a rabble-rouser. A veritable two-fisted, bare-knuckles-brawler of a poster. I like the guy - I mean, he and I share an interest in dinosaurs, as well as a number of other things - but given his history on the boards, Morrus's reply shouldn't be too surprising or off-putting to others, especially long-time board members. I doubt it even singed his scaly hide 

By the way, reaper, have you done anymore work on statting dinosaurs for d20?


----------



## Sir Osis of Liver (Jul 21, 2002)

The 3 layers deal doesn't sound all that bad and i would definatly prefure you stayed with a dark color scheme, as it's easier on the eyes. I think you could ditch the up coming WOTC product list on the front page, and maybe try a seperate page for upcomming d20 products from all or most companies(unless there is one and i've magaged to keep missing it). 

As to a name change, i think  3eN world would be alright, or if we keep expanding you could call it EN Universe.


----------



## Temprus (Jul 21, 2002)

I have a suggestion. Call it PA World and see if Peter will sponsor it!


----------



## Darraketh (Jul 21, 2002)

As far as the name goes I'd stay away from 3rd edition anything.  What happens when they put out 4th edition?  Don't say that is years away unless you make the decisions for WOTC.  Who knows what they are apt to do?

Now as far as design, I'll have to think a bit on that one.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 21, 2002)

If the name and look are to be changed, I think that D&D should be part of the name. Something that suggests a nice, comfortable, homey (as homey as you can get electronically) place for fans to come to. Something along the lines of "The D&D Crossroads Inn" or somesuch.


----------



## Sir Osis of Liver (Jul 21, 2002)

Actually i think i'd call it, Bob.


----------



## Warchild (Jul 21, 2002)

I think you should go away from the 3rd EDITION mantra. Thats TOO D&D-centric. I think you should change the name to something more akin to D20. I think D&D has turned into a facet of D20, rather than the way it began and your site should change with the times. Got to stay on top of things, i say! 

I also think you should go with a nice Red and Gold scheme! 

BTW, i hate frames myself and wouldn't vote for them if given the chance. Maybe you should post some polls on the subject, to better keep track of the membership opinions?


----------



## Archangel (Jul 21, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, reapersaurus has a lot of history with EN World, wherein he has often been something of a rabble-rouser. A veritable two-fisted, bare-knuckles-brawler of a poster. I like the guy - I mean, he and I share an interest in dinosaurs, as well as a number of other things - but given his history on the boards, Morrus's reply shouldn't be too surprising or off-putting to others, especially long-time board members. I doubt it even singed his scaly hide
> 
> By the way, reaper, have you done anymore work on statting dinosaurs for d20? *




Right, well I must admit that having three daughters constantly fighting, I really like the solace (hehe, Solace is also the name of my homebrew)  that these message boards provide.  Now, mind you, I do not dislike conflict (my wife thinks that Instigator is my PrC), but I try to be civil here.

Morrus, my apologies for lecturing.  I am not trying to ruffle any feathers and am not trying to become some sort of message-police, so I will leave my parenting for my house.  

Now, I hate not trying to provide a little bit to each post, so I will weigh in once again on the reorg idea - 

1. The current color scheme is good.
2. I agree with a previous poster that the right column items should be added to the left column and the right column removed (I am not much of a fan of three columns).
3. I think that frames would not be a bad thing, as it would keep menu links on the screen no matter how far down in the page you are.  (I usually read the news and then go to the messageboards, but I have to scroll back up - I know, now I am being picky).
4. Once again, keep it simple (the news layout is pretty good right now, so I do not think it needs much work).
5. I would echo another opinion to reduce the number of forums on the message board (it seems that General RPG Discussion gets a lot of OT threads as this is where everyone is).
6. Less graphics (product covers, especially), for the bandwidth challenged (before I went cable, my 56K would take forever to load the page).  I do not know if this is still a problem, I am just making a suggestion - since the word content is the most important aspect of the site, graphics could be limited to essential ones (new products), while non-essential/old graphics could be removed/re-positioned when no longer essential to page 1.

Now, one last parenting statement (/me slips on dad-hat) - see kids, this is why you should try and keep your nose out of other peoples business.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2002)

Sir Osis of Liver said:
			
		

> *maybe try a seperate page for upcomming d20 products from all or most companies(unless there is one and i've magaged to keep missing it).
> *




There is one.  Which goes to show that the site definitely needs rearranging.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 22, 2002)

An initial idea for the site map (none of this is new content - it's all already here).  I'm sure I've missed stuff out.

On the front page there would only be the following menu items:

COMMUNITY
INFO
ARCHIVE
RESOURCES
HOSTED SITES
SHOPPING
ENNIES

This would break down as follows:

Community
-Messageboards
-Chat Room
-Interviews

Info
-D20 Guide
---Publisher List
---Upcoming Products
---Top 20 Products
---Recent Reviews
-Guide to Free Adventures
-Electronic Aids
---e-Tools
---Neverwinter Nights
-D&D Links

Archive (Black Pages)

Resources
-Conversion Library
-Story Hour
-Competition Entries
-Other Resources

Hosted Sites
-The Creature Catalog
-Claudio Pozas Art & Design
-Realmscrafters  
-Roleplaying Master
-Crooked Staff Productions
-Daemonforge 
-Umbragia: Realms of Shadow 
-Dusk 
-The Cosmonomicon 
-Malls & Morons 
-Middle Earth 3E

Shopping
-EN World RPG Shop
-Natural 20 Press
---Asgard Magazine
-EN World Cafe-Press Store

ENnies
-ENnies 2001
-ENnies 2002


Other bits and bobs that need a home:

Contact details
Ad rates
Supporter pages
Logos done by people

And maybe other stuff I've missed (see, there's so much that I'm not even sure what's on the site these days! 

There are some vague areas - some pages form both a resource archive and an information pages (the Electronic Aids page, for example - lots of downloads, plus lots of links and info).


----------



## reapersaurus (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *Seriously, though - what are you talking about?  The change will be implemented by me.  It won't involve any complex databases or anything (because that's beyond me) but why on earth does that preclude an html redesign?*



Then I am confused about what exactly you are proposing being changed.

"Redesign" could mean lots of things.

Reading your posts, it may just be a re-arrangement of pages and links and presentation of material.

However, most of the posters in this thread commented about the colors, pictures, etc.

My understanding is that you are not a creator of images, animated menus, etc.
Therefore, my perception was you wanting a change in look, and someone else would be doing the images and color-scheme changes.

Hence my caveat at the end: If you do have those skills, than ignore what I said.

Archangel - I got no problem with Morrus' post. He didn't offend.
He seemed pretty straight-forward with me, and Colonel Hardisson is exactly right in his statements.
I agreed with his desire for a reorg... I'm just confused about what his "redesign" would mean.


----------



## bloodymage (Jul 22, 2002)

*Name change*

I'm not web saavy enough to suggest changes to the site. I'll join the chorus and say the color scheme _is_ easy on the eyes. The only thing I have a strong feeling about is a name change. I've seen some suggestions to rename 3EN or incorporate d20 or D&D into a new name. I came to ENWorld as a role-player. I've played in game systems other than D&D, I'm starting up a new additional campaign in 1e and I still think d% are the dice to roll in some situations. I am adamantly _against_ any new name which narrows the perceived focus of the site from a "site for gamers." A new name would be OK, but ENWorld is a fine name as it is.   

Just my 2 coppers


----------



## Morrus (Jul 22, 2002)

Sure, I'll try and clarify a little more.

There are two groups that I intend to benefit from this redesign:  myself (as the person who has to administrate everything) and the visitors (as the people who use everything).

Now, I know what will benefit me personally - and that's prretty much outlined above.  In addition, I'm just a little bored with the current way things are and would like to freshen the place up.

The second part - what would benefit the users - is more the purpose of this thread.  What benefits me may not be what benefits them.  Or the visitors could have a desire for a different structure that I could accomodate fairly easily.

So, this is an information gathering exercise.  I'm not saying that everything that gets suggests will get done (hell, I have to say that I hate that "3EN World" idea - no offence!).  Some of the suggestions may be too extravagant or beyond my capability, in which case they won't be done.  But other suggestions will be within the realms of possibility - or may start a line of thinking in a new direction.

Re. the comments on other people doing stuff.  The bulk of the work will, as always, fall on me.  And that's fine by me - it's my site, my responsibility.  Occasionally people do chip in with something small - a logo or graphic;and that's cool too - it's what makes this such a cool community because people care enough to do that.  But other than the occsional little thing, everything has to be within my capabilities.  General thematic or organisation redesign is well within my capabilities; massive database systems or interactive graphics are not.

Re. renaming.  That is less important to me than the redesign; however, I figured that if there was a time to do it, it should be at the same time as the redesign.  I'm never going to use flowery names like"RPG Dungeon".  The title of Eric's old site was to my taste (in a utility sense) although I personally considered it too long and clumsy.   But it served the function of telling you exactly what the site was, which is the approach I prefer with a site name.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 22, 2002)

There is another factor, too, which is harder to explain - but I'll try.

This is a _fan site_.  It's not Gaming Report (an industry media site).  It's a community of gamers who use it for their needs, whatever they may be (only a small percentage actually use the boards, so there are many others to take into account).

Now - I don't want to be "that news organisation that publishers send their press releases too".  That's just not what I'm interested in doing. Yeah, I post news.  Yeah, I'll continue to do so.  But my thoughts on "rebranding" encompass more than a name change - we're talking more of a "back to basics, Eric Noah style affair".  Something that's personal, warm and homely - I feel that these days the site is becoming more and more "official" and "organisation-like".  

I'm really not explaining this well.

It's like this.  The trend has been more and more for publishers, other sites etc. to send impersonal press releases etc.  Sometimes, it's more of a terse instruction.   But the side-effect of it is that I start to feel more and more like the PHP-Nuke powered sites that I don't like.  Except that in place of automated code, there's me.  I just feel like a piece of software, sometimes.  And I don't want to end up like that - if I do, well - I'll stop.  Not interested in running Gaming Report #2. 

So the rebranding (that's probably not even the right word) is partly to emphasise that this is a fan community, and a fan site, not a faceless news reporting agency.  

I still have the disquieting feeling that I've either not explained myself correctly here or that, even worse, I've put across the wrong impression.  If you're unclear, please ask - it's important to me that you guys know where I'm coming from. 

A couple of other things that factor into this - 

*One person brought up the recent thread on expanding into other RPG news.  They were correct that that thread was a sympton of the same issue, although in a tangential way.  Now, don't misunderstand me: I'm a full-on D&D/d20 fan.  I want to run a D&D site. But this, I think, was an attempt to spread my eggs into other baskets.

*I'm vaguely considering changing my approach to news reporting.  I haven't figured it out yet, but, as I said above, posting people's press releases is boring - and could be handled by automated code.  I'm fully against automated code  as I think it seems impersonal, and the main news will always be hand-written by me.  But I want to make it more interesting and to inject more of myself into it before I actually turn into a robot. 

I'm also a little fed up of "politics".  Although I'm not as involved in such stuff as some publishers are, I find myself feeling..umm...I dunno.  Let's just say, I'm going to start saying more what I think in public without worrying so much about keeping publishers happy.   That doesn't mean I'm going to start sayig nasty things about publishers - far from it!  It just means I'm going to be more "casual" (while still being equally as comprehensive!). Because the alternative is to just be an extension of publisher marketing departments (which is what I feel I am, right now), and I have no interest in that.  That's not running my personal fan site (which all you guys are very welcome guests at!).  I'm not anybody's PR department, although some seem to think otherwise. 

So, that's a closer look at what's going on in my head.  I hope it helps to clarify things. The change is as much about "shaking things up" as it is about making adminstrative tasks easier.

Getting more visitors isn't a goal.  Being happy with what I do is; and the people here being happy with what I do is equally important.  I'm here for the fans first and foremost - the publishers are in a distant second place.


----------



## GuardianLurker (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> There are some vague areas - some pages form both a resource archive and an information pages (the Electronic Aids page, for example - lots of downloads, plus lots of links and info). *



So? Put it in both; cross-link it. You don't have to keep the tree acyclic, after all. Though you should probably provide uplinks into the other categories.

Morrus, I like most of the new layout. I'm a little confused however, are the 3-dash entries the second or third tier? And what goes under "Other Resources"?

I've added my comments/suggestions to the map in italics.

*
COMMUNITY
INFO
ARCHIVE
RESOURCES
HOSTED SITES
SHOPPING
ENNIES
SITE ADMIN
(And the news splash, right?)

Community
-Messageboards
-Chat Room
-Interviews
-Fan Sites (cross-linked from the info page)?

Info
-D20 Guide
---Publisher List
---Upcoming Products
---Top 20 Products
---Recent Reviews
--- ENnies (cross-link)
-Guide to Free Adventures
--- (broken down by publisher? WotC has a TON)
-Electronic Aids
---e-Tools
---Neverwinter Nights
-D&D Links

Archive (Black Pages)

Resources
-Conversion Library
-Story Hour
-Competition Entries
-Open Gaming (SRD, OGL, etc)
-Other Resources

Hosted Sites
-The Creature Catalog
-Claudio Pozas Art & Design
-Realmscrafters  
-Roleplaying Master
-Crooked Staff Productions
-Daemonforge 
-Umbragia: Realms of Shadow 
-Dusk 
-The Cosmonomicon 
-Malls & Morons 
-Middle Earth 3E

Shopping
-EN World RPG Shop
-Natural 20 Press
---Asgard Magazine
--- (Other Nat 20 products [like Tourneys,...])
-EN World Cafe-Press Store
-Upcoming Products (cross-link from info)
-Top 20 Products (cross-link from info)
- Ennies (cross-link)

ENnies
-ENnies 2001
-ENnies 2002


Site Admin
-Contact details
-Ad rates
-Supporter pages
-Logos done by people
-Site FAQs (added)

*

Now I think I'll shut up before I get into trouble. 

[Edit: fixed hierarchy error.]


----------



## Morrus (Jul 22, 2002)

No, that's cool, Guardian. 

I'll try an explain that "tree" a little more.

Each of the 5 (was it 5?) primary links (COMMUNITY, RESOURCES etc.) goes to a page.  On that page itself is plenty of info.  The "three-dashes" are pages leading off that page.

So your design has the ENnies as a sub-page of the Cafe-Press store (which sells t-shirts!) 

An example - 

ELECTRONIC AIDS
---e-Tools
---NWN

This is already set up exactly like that: http://www.enworld.org/3eelectronic.htm

So, from the front page, you'd click on "Info" and you'd get something like this:

"Welcome to the info page.  This page has info on it.  Here's some info".  There would then be links on that page to D20 Guide, Guide to Free Adventures, D20 Guide and Links.


----------



## theeye3e (Jul 22, 2002)

*ENWorld Layout*

I agree with everyone about not changing the name. ENWorld is not only well known, but is also well respected, with that respect beginning with Eric and continuing with you.

I believe that the layout needs a little tweaking, and streamlining the site to be more user-friendly would be a big improvement. 

The color scheme is also a concern. Yes, the color scheme is easy on the eyes, but the size of the front page makes the colors seem drab (no offense). The human eyes respond to lighter, brighter colors more than darker colors.

As a Web Designer myself, I believe that simplicity is king.

Either way you decide to go with the site, I will always come back to get my D20/D&D news from ENWorld.


----------



## Archangel (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *...Getting more visitors isn't a goal.  Being happy with what I do is; and the people here being happy with what I do is equally important.  I'm here for the fans first and foremost - the publishers are in a distant second place... *




Now I feel silly for not asking, but thank you for the explanation.  As to your saying what you want to say, good.  I can always click the company's link if I want to hear (er..I mean read) what they have to say.  I want to hear your opinion, as you are privy to some stuff the rest of us aren't (maybe not as much as you would like, but more than most of us).  That is why I read the boards and that is why I enjoy Monte's and Sean's opinions.  In fact, I do not know if you want another news category, but editorial would be appropriate.  Whenever you have something to share, put it in the daily news under the heading of editorial.  People that are not interested will see the heading and be able to skip right past it, while those who are will see it right away.

All in all, I would support any change that makes your job easier, more satisfying, and still gives me this valuable resource (well, I will support it more after GenCon, when I can afford to purchase some EN World merchandise).

As to the name thing again, I think that EN World does a lot to say this is for the fans, for it was started at 3rd Edition News by Eric for the fans, and it was for the fans that you picked up the baton.  So, I guess I am still against a name change, but in the spirit of fair play how about these ideas:

*d20 Community*
*D&D Community*
*D&D Geeks* (I know, but look it could be catchy and begs for a cool logo)
*Where's Morrus* (you could hide a picture of you somewhere on the website each day and we could try to find it -  )
*d20 News* (kind of cries back to 3rd Edition News

I guess that is all I have.


----------



## Darraketh (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> **I'm vaguely considering changing my approach to news reporting...  ...But I want to make it more interesting and to inject more of myself into it before I actually turn into a robot.*




Morrus, that is actually a good idea.  However the site will be _all_ you.  

I *can* see an _almost_ daily column of your reporting on the industry happenings. No press releases! If a company can't take the time to address you personally, then they can just post their press releases on their own sites.

This will actually be more work for you.  You'll have to be proactive, which is a little difficult when you are thousands of miles from some of your sources.  You'll have to probe your sources to get the scoop behind the press releases. 

Without the generic news you'll need to offer something in a style that will keep people comimg back.  You may not be interested in growing the site but I dare say you wouldn't find running it much fun if everyone left.  

Personalizing the site by focusing on _your_ news reporting will put people in the position of having to decide if they like your style, opinions, effort, etc.  It will be all you baby. 

I say, go for it!  This is a small change as opposed to a name and another url change.

You may want to just get a toe wet first by doing an editorial.  Try doing a regular column on a weekly basis where you go after the news and bring it back.


----------



## XCorvis (Jul 22, 2002)

OK, here's my suggestions for a site redesign. I'm just gonna throw them all out.

Keep the name. Name recognition is important.

Change the color scheme. Warchild suggested red and gold, which could be very lively. Just moving away from the dominant black and grey scheme will make the whole site seem lighter and more friendly.

I like your news groupings and the layout of that, so keep that roughly the same.

The side bars are awful, IMO. The one on the left contains too many navigation links. It's virtually a sitemap.
The one on the right is way too long with too many pics. Move the WotC product schedule somewhere else, or at least shrink it - no images, no extra text.

Again, IMO, the sidebars should be static - nothing on them changes regularly. So contests, product schedules, anything that could be updated and is not considered a layout change should be bumped somewhere else. So a contest page and a product schedule page would be in order. You could, of course, still include links to them in prominent places.

The news page is particularly long today. You might want to limit it to "today" and "yesterday". I like the idea of daily/weekly archive pages, rather than monthly, but I don't usually go to the archives so it doesn't matter too much to me.

Put all the archive links on a separate page.

If you do all that, you should be down to one sidebar (use the left one, I think). You would be updating multiple pages, but each page should have less stuff to deal with, and most of the sub-pages would get updated less frequently. The page itself would be smaller and load faster, which should be good for everyone.

Comments on my comments are welcome.


----------



## DPGDarrin (Jul 22, 2002)

As a fan of this site first, and a publisher second, I have a few suggestions.

First of all I don't care about the name one way or another. You can make it more utilitarian (3EN), or keep it as an homage to the original creator of the commuity. That's your call. Personally, Eric always did right by me.

Second, I agree that this site has become a bit of an arm of most people's marketting departments, and as the marketting department for DPG, I would say that its definitely a valuable one. One I would be willing to PAY for. Yes, I think its fair that us publishers are making money from the service that you provide, so why not share in some of the expense as well? I'm not saying that it should be too expensive, or on a per announcement basis, but what if all of us just pitched in a mandatory $50 to $100 per anum to continue to use the main page as a means of passing important information on to the community? I do feel that covering publishing news was the original intent of Eric's site, so I would recommend not moving too far away from that. Its good for the publishers to get the word out about a new product, and its also good for the fans to have a firm grasp of what's new. I think that's one of the reasons you get so many visitors. Also, this is one of the few fan sites that the publishing industry takes seriously. That's quite a feat, and something you should be proud of.

Third, I like the way the site is organized now. Its easy to navigate, its easy on the eyes. I just can't see too many reasons to change.

So that's my $.02


----------



## bloodymage (Jul 22, 2002)

*???*



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> So the rebranding (that's probably not even the right word) is partly to emphasise that this is a fan community, and a fan site, not a faceless news reporting agency. *
> 
> _italics added_




Gamers EN Heaven?

Roleplayers EN Paradise?


----------



## Morrus (Jul 22, 2002)

Thanks, Darrin.

I'm not keen on your idea, though.  It's not a money issue at all (I could make more money easily by doing another job!).  Adopting that suggestion would move me in the opposite direction to the one I wish to move - one in which I am _more_ beholden to publishers, and _more_ required to act as an automaton - all the while less free to say what I think!  

I think that after 3 months of doing that, I'd close the site.  I just wouldn't get any pleasure from it.

I agree that bringing important news to the fans is important.  I need to figure out how I'm going to do that; all I know is that I'm not going to be posting press releases like a robot from now on.


----------



## DPGDarrin (Jul 22, 2002)

OK, another idea. Don't post the news unless you think its important to the fans. Maybe new product coverage can become the mention that its out as opposed to a several post game of "its at the printers" and then "we just looked at it and its great," and then "Oh its available on our website, and it should be out in the stores in a few more days," and then finally, "You can buy it now becuase your local store should have it. Lets tell you about our next one now," and so on.

I guess part of the problem is that this site has become too important for publishers and it could hurt some if that feature goes away. I agree its a tough call, but I understand where' you're coming from.


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 22, 2002)

That explanation, I think, is very helpful, Russ -- thanks.  

I'm gonna ramble a bit here, and I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know from experience.  Bear with me.  

I've never been big into "mission statements" but it never hurts to have something to look at and say "oh yeah, that's why I started doing this and why I continue to do it."  I'd love to see what you come up with.  

In some ways you are in a very unenviable position -- you've got lots and lots of people who want a piece of that valuable acreage called EN World's front page.  Some of those people are fans -- they want to be mentioned in the Community News if they've made updates to their websites or created a neat new adventure or aid of some sort.  I think that's a great use of the D20 News area.  

Some of those people are publishers.  And that's where it gets a little hairy.  When a publisher offers up a freebie, it's fun to be able to tell the fans about that.  When a publisher sends you a press release, though, they're not always all that relevant or useful to many viewers on your site.  I'm sure you, like I did, have often used your judgement to decide what is news and what isn't news.  I'd urge you to continue to be judicial about that.  Make the publishers do their own advertising.  You don't work for them.  

It's great to hear you reaffirm that the site is about the fans.  You are not here to serve the publishers.  You are not here to sell their products for them.  Now, sometimes helping the publishers communicate with the fans is important -- not because it helps the publishers, but because it helps the fans.  They'll want to know if there's some neat new product coming up, or a freebie or a rules correction, etc.  

Your site and my site are very different in some ways.  Because my site was pure "hobby" I could literally take it or leave it and it wouldn't force a major change in my life.  You, on the other hand, are attempting to make this a profitable business in some way, and as such that makes things even more difficult.  You will have a tough balancing act between wanting good relations with publishers and yet making sure your loyalty to your fans and to your own vision of the site stays true.  I don't envy you your position! 

Now, how does site redesign fall into all of this?  I'm not necessarily talking about what pages link to what, more about how the news area of that main page is presented.  Here are some thoughts...

First, I propose that you separate your D20 News "chunks" a bit more.  Press releases should be one category by itself, and it should get little fanfare.  Press releases are rarely news (rather they are advertisments disguised as news).  Give 'em a title, mention who they're from, and link to them on the message boards or wherever they have been posted so if people want more information they can get to it.  Or maybe even have one section of a sidebar called "This Week's Press Releases" with links.

Other D20 News categories could involve official freebies/previews/web enhancements; corrections/clarifications; industry news (who got hired, fired, merged, downsized, the good and the bad); stuff like that.  And you already do that to some degree; what I'm suggesting is more emphasis on the stuff gamers who aren't into "industry news" would like to see (free stuff) and less on press releases.  

I was about to suggest something radical -- not metioning every little update to WotC's site.  I mean, map-a-week, who needs to be reminded of that every other day.  But actually this is probably a really important role that EN World plays, so maybe gather more input on this.  

Another area that might need some rethinking is the D20 Reviews/Guide.  This section is a great idea in theory.  However, in practice the d20 guide part of it ends up spouting the company's line a bit more than maybe it has to.  A lot of that stuff really screams "I'm helping these companies sell their stuff" perhaps uninentionally, when maybe it should be screaming "I'm keeping the fans informed."  One not-so-simple fix to this is to not use the company's canned  info about the products, but to write a more neutral/factual description that leaves the hype out.  A very laborious task ahead of you there if you decide to go that route.  But for example, if a company describes their forthcoming book as "A huge book filled to the brim with feats, prestige classes, spells, magic systems, vehicle rules, and other crunchy bits to make your half-ghoul characters really come to life!" you simply write "half-ghoul sourcebook."  

Ok, some more ideas coming to mind, and kind of related to the above ... I get the feeling that some companies use your site (maybe the D20 Guide/Reviews section specifically) to subsitute for an accurate, up-to-date, informative company website.  My only advice there is to do your best to not let them get away with doing that.  

Finally, I do know, probably better than anyone here, that with this site comes a bit of politics.  Ick, hate it, I'm right there with you.  Publishers telling you what to do, how to do things, why this company shouldn't nominated for X in the ENnies or why company Y shouldn't even have been invited.  Maddening.  I want you to know that I support any changes you might want to make with the site -- in design, in content, in scope, or in mission.  Because ultimately the site has to be Russell Morrissey's site, and it has to please you first and foremost.  If you're doing with the site things *you* love to do, we will be here -- because you're making the site better for *us.*


----------



## alsih2o (Jul 22, 2002)

*art geek*

i am not computer savvy, but i am an art geek, and if i can do anything to help with the new design i am here for you free o' charge mr. morrus.

  good luck


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 22, 2002)

As a PS, I thought I'd throw out a list of the things I loved, tolerated, or hated re: my old site:

Loved:  

Rules Illustrated Pieces:  combat examples, AoO diagrams.  Anything that made the rules easier to understand or helped demonstrate something.

Putting the pieces together.  Detective work.  Anonymous scoops.   I wouldn't have been big on people posting whole lists of things from the Epic Level Handbook, for instance, but I myself wouldn't have minded posting a name of a feat here, or something now and then.  Perhaps that time has passed, but the pre-3E release days were the best for this stuff. 

Exclusive interviews:  coming up with an interview that you couldn't get anywhere else.  Russ, you've got the clout to do this more if you wanted to, I think.  

Sharing other people's resources with the world.  Loved being able to tell folks about Angrablahblahblah's reference sheets or Jamis Buck's generators.  


Tolerated:

updating my old D20 Guide.  Tolerated because I knew it was important to try to consolidate the huge mass of products in some way.  Didn't like so much because I often was working with old, outdated, inaccurate information.  Did my best to not let a company's entry in the guide substitute for having an actual website with correct release dates.

delivering bad news about the industry.  Very important role, but no fun most of the time.  

Added stuff to the Conversion library:  Again, important, but labor intensive.  Often put that task off until the last possible moment.  

Hated:

BS press releases that didn't really say anything or served no purpose.  Advertising disguised as news.  

Removing Skurge's stats!  

Dealing with message board problems (the VERY rare misbehaving miscreant)


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 22, 2002)

Count me as strongly against a new name.  You mention "rebranding" the site, so you must know something about marketing - keep in mind that the EN World "brand" is extremely valuable!

There is no other site that has the name recognition that EN World has, and other game sites would give their eye teeth for such a wondrous thing!  It would be like a major corporation changing their name - you just don't do it because you're tired of the name you have now.

You'd be potentially tossing a large percentage of your users out with the new name, since it would take so long to re-engage them.

I can't counsel strongly enough against a new name, in short.

And I agree that a marketing strategy is in order more than anything.


----------



## DPGDarrin (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Hated:
> BS press releases that didn't really say anything or served no purpose.  Advertising disguised as news.[/B]_



_

Eric is right - there is a lot of this that happens. We're as guilty of this as the next publisher. Our internal policy regaarding this since about 8 months ago is to only ask to be in the news if something important has occurred. Some have confused this as being quiet when in fact we had a lot going on in production. Other times we've made an FYI post on the message boards and watched it turn up in news. We weren't expecting it to show up there, and we weren't asking for it, but there it was. One example that immediately leaps to mind was when we posted some art to our site. Of course art is one of those things that Eric liked. Go figure.

The bottom line is that I support whatever decision you make in supporting either/both the fans and the industry. Like most other publishers, we're doing printed advertising for printed products, and I think they'll do pretty well with that type of support. We want to be part of this community as a friend and supporter; not as a detractor._


----------



## CRG (Jul 22, 2002)

To what Eric Noah just sayd "Here here!" 

What I'd like to see...

The front page to have more of a portal feel.  Keep the running list of news updates, press releases in one section (maybe on third).  Separate out the fan-events in another (contests some people are having, neat things on the message boards, etc.) and finally the third area I'd like to see be the community area (Natural 20, Creature Collection, etc.) - things that have taken a step beyond a discussion on the message boards and either archived, cataloged or stored as a developed product in one location.  Basic "whats new" for each of these 3 portal sections with some bigger buttons / hotspots to jump to the areas in question (go straight to natural 20 press, go straight to details about the July 20 WoTC press release on flying islands, go straight to more info about the MyGameCompany "Feats that should never be" contest", etc.).  Also have a few buttons that jump you to the message boards.

Revamp the message boad categories.  Not all get used.  Trash the ones that don't.  Add a section where DM's can build their own board for their home world (maybe collect a fee or donation via paypal?).

Almost finally, for the front page to remain black in color.  I think its important.

Finally, Eric is right about both the mission statement and the fact that this is YOUR site.  I think you need the mission statement, it will help you clarify your goals.  Hell, it may be the first step in incorporating or even getting some sort of not-for-profit status for your site....the biggest will be to help you set your scope.  

It is YOUR site, but I'm kind of a softy for history.  If you say "EN World" everyone knows what you mean...the name has brand identity.  Its up to you if you want to change it.  I'd like to think of EN World as the equivalent (at least in this subculture) as the equivalent of "Coke" or "Pepsi" in the soda world.  Personally, I wouldn't change the name.


----------



## Gargoyle (Jul 22, 2002)

I'll throw my 2 coppers in.  

Morrus, I think a site design is a good idea as long as it's something you are interested in doing.  You've got to get enjoyment out of running a fan site, because the worst thing that can happen is that updating the site starts to become a chore.   Even if your site is a business, it shouldn't be something that you don't look forward to.  I would humbly suggest making the site design simple, without much in the way of fancy graphics or animation, and heavy on content.  

As far as the name, I would resist the urge to change it.  If you get a great idea for a new name, sure, go for it.  The idea that you should rename it whenever you do the site design doesn't make sense to me.  You can rename it anytime.  Doing so during a major redesign might confuse new users even more.

Eric has some good points.  When it comes to relationships with publishers and fans, I'm glad to see that the fans are the priority.  Yeah, I'm a publisher (barely!), but I've been an RPG fan much longer.  Even if I manage to become a full time game publisher (sigh...some day)  I'll still be a fan.    ENWorld's news reports are valuable real estate for publishers because so many fans view them, and as long as the site caters to fans and keeps advertisements unobtrusive, it will continue to be so.  So publishers win from a focus on fans as well.  

Some random thoughts on improving the site:  (I'm sure some of these are impractical or just aren't what you want to do, just throwing stuff out for thought)

- Promote online play of D&D on the messageboards and chat rooms.  I'm not certain about the best way to do this, but I do know that there are a lot of players on the site without DM's and vice versa.  Nothing promotes a D&D fan site like getting people to play.  

- Keep up the updates at all costs.  Nothing kills a site like inactivity.  You may want to set up a script so that messageboard moderators can post news bits on the front page.  

- Post more links to interesting messageboard threads on the front page, not just celebrity posts.  This will get the people who just read the news into the messageboards.  You can do the opposite by posting announcements in the boards linking to news items.  I've noticed many people on the boards are unaware of the news because they've found it through a link from somewhere else.  Perhaps the messageboard moderators can be given the ability to post news as well for this purpose, or you can use a script or something to automatically post a popular thread in the margin.  

- Create an open content section where publishers and individuals can submit free OGC material.  If you can give publishers and fans accounts and let them upload materials themselves, all the better.  I've always thought ENWorld should be the one place where you could find all the free d20 material that exists.  I'm sure there are other websites that are attempting to do this, but since I don't have time to surf the web, like many of your other visitors, I haven't discovered one that I like.  

- Rename the website to "Morrus' 4th Edition D&D News" and post a press release from Peter Atkinson with info on the upcoming 4th edition of D&D.   

Ok, I'm past two coppers, and up to electrum pieces...I'll shut up now.


----------



## saersan (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus: Maybe you could set up a forum that d20 publishers could post their press releases on, or even a news forum.

As far as the design goes I think that it shouldn't have a black background, everyone uses black these days. It's too gloomy, maybe a nice shade of green, or pink even! 

Seriously though, if you're stuck for design ideas have a look through some of the design sites:

designiskinky.com
australianinfront.com.au

I like the sort of look that fantasyonline.net has, though from the sounds of it, it's exactly the type of layout you're trying to avoid.


----------



## GuardianLurker (Jul 22, 2002)

*Oops!...*



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *No, that's cool, Guardian.
> 
> I'll try an explain that "tree" a little more.
> So your design has the ENnies as a sub-page of the Cafe-Press store (which sells t-shirts!)
> *




GAH! Those were supposed to be directly under the shopping page, not the Cafe-Press thing...

The idea was to give people in the "Shopping" thing one last push towards the good stuff.

I'll go back and fix that...


----------



## Kraedin (Jul 22, 2002)

Change the colors.  Black text on a white background is so much easier to read.  Everytime I look at the Wizards.com forums or the 3rdedition.org forums I'm struck by how much easier on the eyes their colors are.


----------



## Horacio (Jul 22, 2002)

Change everything you want, Morrus, but NEITHER the name (as anyone in marketing bussines can tell you, the trademark is usually even more valuable than the product) NOR the community and news focus. Please


----------



## Eternalknight (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus, I'll tell you what I use your site for.  Maybe if we all do this, you will have a better idea of what we like and how to organize it for the fans.  

The first thing I do when I get home from work is check EN World's news page.  I browse the Wizards updates, just to see if there is anything worth checking over there.  I then usually skip straight down to community news.  This may be beacuse my site is often featured there, but it is also because I like free things.  Checking out what is happening within the community is more important to me than seeing what is coming out from a d20 publisher.  I usually have a quick look over d20 publishers news, but don't often find anything worth perusing (this is just my tastes.)

I then usually head over to the messageboards, to check what is happening there.  General, Rules, House Rules, and Software are the main forums I browse.

I don't look at the reviews pages all that often, but I do look at them when I am debating over my next purchase.

Finally, I'd just like to say this:  You are onto a good thing here.  Don't let d20 publishers (heck, even us in the community who send you updates on our sites!) push you into doing anything you don't want.  Ultimately, if we all want this site to continue, you need to be doing what you want to do .


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 22, 2002)

okay I've only read page 1 and page 4 but would like to add

Keep EnWorld as the Brand - yes En World not EN this way the name is divorced from Eric (no offense Eric) but still recognisably the Brand (yes I admit to being a pronounciation heretic)

3EnWord maybe good in theory but what happens when 4 edition comes out and 5th etc - having to keep updating links is as much a hassle as changing servers

I liked the NewsPaper Layout suggestion - which could probably be achieved with static frames on the front page acting as a portal to the other pages and content

Consolidate some of the Forums and have a drop down menu function

Use new windows for links

the rest I like...


----------



## Twinswords (Jul 22, 2002)

Hi Morrus,

Please keep the name EN World. It has history, is famous and easy to use in conversation.

I think the front page could be more flashy and colourfull but you should keep the coloursheme in the boards. It is easy on the eyes.

Twinswords


----------



## Graf (Jul 22, 2002)

*Morrisblog*

Basically it sounds like you want EnWorld to be your Blog. There have been days when its quite bloggy (run with it) and you express your own opinions and there are times when it isn't. You seem to have a keen understanding of your role as community leader (the important thing is mostly that you can express your opinion without deriding that held by others).

Move the press releases someplace (verbatium press releases help me practice mousewheel-skip-function). Maybe do a blurb about the interesting releases on the front page (canceling Chainmai, declairing Ryan D. lord of the earth, whatever). Having the front filled with stuff is fine. Streamlining means that some things people like a lot are going to be stuck somewhere irritating to get at.

I think the vast majority of people who come here are happy with the site as it is now. Its easy to get around and find what you're looking for and continous, good improvements happen (searchable reviews = excellent). Incremental improvements are definitely the way to go. If you want to post your own thoughts then just start doing it. Changing the whole websites layout isn't related. (OK its probably related on the pyschological need to express yourself and let out some creative energy but I don't see them as having any kind of nessessary relationship).

To be kinda blunt: people come here to get information and gaming material. Its easy to find right now (especially for the people who already know the place). Changing it won't really improve it much.... will basically shut the site down for a while (system upgrades are longer and more frustrating that it seems like they could be).

Frames are bad.


----------



## eris404 (Jul 22, 2002)

*a nice web site example*

I don't know if this helps, but one web site I thought was nicely designed is: http://www.hellboy.com/

The navigation is clean, the names of categories are meaningful and it's easy to find what you're looking for. Also, it uses the organizational look of frames without using frames themselves. Somthing similar to this might work for you.

---Betsy


----------



## ladyofdragons (Jul 22, 2002)

bondetamp said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Or vbPortal, which I believe is PHPNuke's new name (I might be wrong, but they are almost identical).
> 
> It is about as difficult to use and modify as this forum, users can log in and change their personal layout, etc. It also looks rather similar (if you tilt your head just so and squint a little bit), so there shouldn't be too many old users roaming the English countryside with torches and pitchforks.  *




I'd suggest postnuke, as a developer of the system I know that the new blocklayout design that's coming up the pipe in the .8 version is going to allow for templated design that will let a site NOT look just like every other darn CMS-generated site out there (like my site at the moment, but that'll change once blocklayout is stable).  But that's just MHO.

-Ladyofdragons
http://www.dndresources.com


----------



## provik (Jul 22, 2002)

*News Consolidation*

Perhaps if news was consolidated into messages on the message board (perhaps a non-postable message board with links to a response board).

Posting news would be no problem for site admins.

Moving all that off the front page would do a great deal for cleaning things up.  If you want, a consolidated "scream sheet" for the front page to show headlines, with people going to the "news and announcement" message board for specific information and articles.

As far as a name, EN doesn't really talk about what you support, which has always been the most difficult thing to track.  You can't call yourself "3E World", but that seems to be what you support, for the most part.

The front page will fall into place when you simplify the task of updating news and announcements and making space on the front page.  Although it seems sometimes an index by game world might be handy...

Just suggestions.  And even if the site never changed, I love it.   So whatever you do, it'll work for most of us.

Bob Bellamy


----------



## Painfully (Jul 22, 2002)

It might be important to poll and learn what screen resolutions are most popular.  This would effect the size of the front page I would want to use.

I'd like to keep my front page sizeable enough that I DO NOT have to scroll down.  The front page should be today's news only.  Artwise, I think a newspaper's frontpage sort of feel would be good, with bold headlines and a short- to medium-length brief for each major announcement.  Offering links to a full story or news release as appropriate (I'd almost prefer just linking to a companies own announcement page whenever possible).

A small sidebar with a calendar can offer links to yesterday's news page, or last week, etc.  Alternatively, you can just list in a sidebar all the headlines from yesterday, etc. for the last 3 days or so (in smaller print of course).  I'm thinking of the right-hand sidebar like the one used at http://slashdot.org where it says older stuff.

A more intuitive, graphical feel to the front page would be a nice touch.  I think the newspaper front-page image would create a good "get your news now!" kind of feel for today's stuff of interest.  At the bottom, perhaps add the title and link to the top 3 busiest message threads of the day, so people can see what the hot topics of the day are on the boards as part of their news.

Thats my idea for a front page.  I was thinking three large tabs along the top.  First tab NEWS, second tab, COMMUNITY (messageboards mainly), and third tab for yet to be determined stuff.  Possibly archive, or hosted sites, or member created articles, or reviews, or something.

When I say tabs, the closest thing I can think of is the top of http://www.rpgnow.com but with only three larger looking tabs.  Click the tab, see the other section, but still always have quick access to the other tabs (sections) on any page at any time.  Almost like frames, but without the frames.

I got more ideas too, but I'll see if this one gets a nibble.  

I think it would go a long way to get a graphic designer to be able to add a few graphical touches to some of the pages, but that will come later if at all.


----------



## ladyofdragons (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *I'm not keen on anything like PHP-Nuke (I think it's soulless).  I hear a few people saying that they'd like the site to be no more than 3 layers deep (and, conversely, others who have said that they'd like fewer options on the main page which would probaly lead to more layers).
> 
> Reorganisation is fairly important, because the site is quite a mess right now. It could be structured far better.  Of course, without losing any of the content, a fairly clever site map would be needed. *




I realize I'm probably not going to change anyone's mind, but a CMS (content management system) such as postnuke, phpnuke, or xoops or whatever doesn't need to be soulless (I don't think my site is soulless, maybe I'm just kidding myself though).  It's supposed to just take some of the backbreaking time-consuming work out of running a large, complex site (believe me, I know, even though I have less traffic and content than enworld).  I mean, I'm sure all your members/surfers would love something like an integrated search engine that would search news, downloads, reviews, etc., a categorization structure that would allow cross-searching of items, and these things are a big pain to program.

One of the things you want is control.  You can control your news by disallowing news postings.  just have news emailed to you as always, and create your own news postings.  you can have the front-page text of each news posting be the synopsis that you are currently emailing in the enworld newsletter, and the extended information be reached by a single click.  bang, less clutter on the front page.  That's really my main 'gripe' about enworld, that it's so cluttered.

Anyway, my comments are probably unwelcome, but are merely presented as food for thought from someone with a lot of experience in various CMS's.

-Ladyofdragons
http://www.dndresources.com


----------



## Eye Tyrant (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus, I say you should keep the name ENworld. Change the meaning if you like, but keep it EN. I have been here for the past 2 years or so (since Eric ran things) and I think that though all of us are going to stick with you regardless of the name, you may lose the newer audience. Also, you will be stuck with the "Prince Stigma" and forever known as "The Site Formerly Known as ENWorld"


----------



## Eye Tyrant (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus, I say you should keep the name ENworld. Change the meaning if you like, but keep it EN. I have been here for the past 2 years or so (since Eric ran things) and I think that though all of us are going to stick with you regardless of the name, you may lose the newer audience. Also, you will be stuck with the "Prince Stigma" and forever known as "The Site Formerly Known as ENWorld"


----------



## Peskara (Jul 22, 2002)

Since you asked for opinions I thought I'd throw mine out there:

Speaking as a graphic designer, I really appreciate the black/dark gray background with off-white text. It's much easier on the eyes than white on black or any other color combo I've seen. I work with black on white text all day on my computer (I don't have a choice about it), which in a reflective medium like print is fine, but for a transmissive medium like a computer screen is too many photons hitting my retinas or something.

If you want to move to a light background with dark text, I wouldn't make the background pure white. I would stick to muted colors for anything that you want people to actually read (the mesageboards where there are long posts for example). Brighter is fine for graphics, but for text it sucks.

Fewer layers are better. 3 layers is optimal. Speaking as someone that lives in an area where I can't get better than a 56k connection (and I get frequent disconnects if I don't want to pay long distance charges because the only local ISP isn't all that), I don't have a lot of patience for clicking through a bunch of stuff to get to what I'm looking for.

I vote for keeping the name. It does have good recognition (heck, I think the ENnies already have more recognition than the Origins Awards!) which it would take a lot of work to rebuild, and it's always good to remember your roots.

Also, thanks for all the work you've already done keeping the site alive and thriving. I hadn't been here since Eric Noah passed the torch but now I've started visiting every day again.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jul 22, 2002)

How bizarre! I added a post to this thread earlier this morning and it has completely vanished?!?

Assuming that it wasn't removed by a moderator (I can't think why it might have been) I'll repost what I can remember of it.

======

My opinions, for what the're worth:

I would like the name to remain ENWorld if possible - I like the sense of history which it gives, and when people turn into old duffers like me that becomes important. Mind you, they say that nostalgia isn't what it used to be... 

I'd love to see a colour change back to the black on pale yellow that was originally used for d20 reviews. I personally find that much more readable and attractive, I've never liked the black pages much.

I imagine that you could divine from the web server logs which are the most visited (and thus probably most important) bits of the site. Any future navigation scheme would benefit from including some of the most important and best-loved links at the top level and easy to find. I'd guess that the messageboards come into this category, and I'd not like to see them buried a level down under "Community" - it is the main link which I use off the home page, and that may be true for many others. Chat and Interviews are, I guess, much less popular (if only because there is a lower frequency of updates).

The main thing that I look for on ENWorld is the news - what's going on in other websites, what content is becoming available on the web. I do like the latest thing you have been doing of highlighting some particularly interesting messageboard threads too - good stuff.

I think you should keep having several days news on the front page and not just todays... those of us who don't access the site at the weekend might end up missing some vital news 

The part of the front page design which is of least use to me is the "coming attractions from WotC" with illustrations. I think that could probably sit on a subsidiary page very nicely. This could break the current page from its current layout with a narrow column on both sides, to just a column on the left side.

I don't know what you think of dynamic, javascript menus? They are improving tremendously in cross-browser compatibility now, and they can make a screen appear less cluttered while still providing plenty of links deeper into the site.

Something that would be good (if possible) is for the ENWorld home page to highlight the most recent 5 reviews in d20reviews, if that is possible... I often forget to go and check d20reviews, and a reminder on the ENworld front page would be great.


Anyhow, thanks for all the all the good work and initiatives you are doing here... from the point of this Fan you are doing me a tremendous favour, and I really appreciate it.

Cheers


----------



## Dextra (Jul 22, 2002)

I'm feeling a bit schizoid right here, because I'm posting not only as a relative newbie user of ENWorld, but also as a publisher.  My hubby's been coming here for ages, but it's only recently that I've been dropping by, and I'd like to share some thoughts.

Unless you're getting paid for that product placement on the right column, I'd lose it and find homes for the contests section and the ENWorld merch.  

As for the left-hand column, have you ever considered drop-down menus, or expanding menus (so that when you put your mouse over one of your headers, such as COMMUNITY, it expands to show Messageboards, Chat Room, Interviews)?  That way you don't have to add another level to the tree whilst reducing the amount of clutter on the front page.  Drop-downs are simple and easy to use, and available for free off of various DHTML sites.  We used one quite easily for our local municipality's site and I find it helps keep the site look clean, easy to navigate, and less cluttered. 

As a first timer, there was so mucking fuch on the front page it was overwhelming.  As a kindness to new visitors to your page, I'd like to suggest adding a "WELCOME" section that explains what's in each section, a link to a sitemap, something like that.  But then again, you've emphasized that you're more interested in making the site better for existing users.  I also like the suggestion of having a "SITE ADMIN" section, or SITE INFO.  The newbie welcome could fit in there quite nicely.  

When I visit your site, I love seeing the news.  There's a lot of really neat stuff going on out there, and it's my main reason for dropping by, to see who's doing what.  Personally, I don't like the amount of play WoTC gets.  I figure they've got enough of a PR department running and enough market saturation that listing their product schedule news isn't interesting.  I love the gossip-type stuff: who got fired, that sort of thing.  I really like the news, and I hope you can find a way to make it keep happening in a similar way. Heck, even a single-line headline-style piece of news with a link to the appropriate post on the boards or website would be good... but if doing so would still make you feel dirty, then I guess I'd sadly wave it goodbye.  You don't want to be a pimp for every scrap of free PR the publishers are trying to push, but you still want scoops and news.  It's a hard line to walk.

I agree with the observation that your site shouldn't be used instead of an informative web site.  If you enjoy trying to stay on top of every publisher's product release schedule, then hey, have fun.  I just have to know, have you actually been pressured by any publisher over this issue?  It seems to me in public they've been very silent on this front.

The name?  Keep it if ya want.  Lose it if you want.  I'd keep it- you've held onto it this long, why not hold it? It's a conversation piece.  But then again, if you're going to do a massive site redesign, totally changing the feel and delivery of the site, then maybe changing the name would be appropriate.  It's your site, do whatcha want with it.  If it's not fun for you, then do what it takes to make it fun again- just keep this awesome resource going, no matter what!


----------



## gordonknox (Jul 22, 2002)

*Just a thought...*

Morrus, 

I appreciate the opportunity to be heard regarding the revamp of my favorite site.  What I am thinking is more of a new feature rather than a change/update.

Just a thought...

Would it be possible to video broadcast over the net a “real” DnD game session run by board / industry experts?  

I for one would enjoy tremendously a means to “see how the pros do it.”  I read the tales in the campaign section and feel the magic within those stories.  I think this could be a great way to entertain but also, for me at least, educate, motivate fan interaction.  

I realize that DnD sessions can last several hours.  So, one could either tape the session and edit it for content and time, or, maybe you could broadcast the whole session, real time, but with a limit.  The limit could be constrained by time (one hour) or by event (battler with the behir.)    

For ideas on what to broadcast, board members could vote on which campaign or product they would like to see used in a real game time situation.  We could then chat about it real time or comment on it afterwards.   

Thanks and good luck, 

gordonknox


----------



## Harlock (Jul 22, 2002)

I've already responded to this thread once, and spoken to you about this in #dnd3e, Mr. Morrus, but I like Eternalknight's idea about letting you know HOW we use your site and then tossing out a couple of ideas. So, without further ado: Here is how Harlock uses ENWorld.

Okay, first part isn't about browsing at all.  I have Trillian load at start up on my computer and it logs me into every chatter known to man and I log into chat.psionics.net #dnd3e and #yb.  I see who is there, possibly say hello first or possibly bring up a browser.

Browser is set to home page of, you guessed it, www.enworld.org  I read the headlines and go straight down the page.  I honestly don't skim anything as I have found value in almost everything I have ever read on your site.  If any linkage catches my eye on the front page, I may click through to that site (and please, don't bother with having it open in a new window as this is easy enough to do by right-clicking a hypertext link) to check out the whole scoop.  Once I've read the news and checked out everything that interests me, I click the messageboards link on the top of the left sidebar and head straight for General RPG Discussion.  I check out the first page and click on the threads the interest me most.  After I've satisfied my Gen. RPG Disc. urge I head over to Fight Club to see who is kicking my butt this time.

Throughout the remainder of the day I have three browsers open.  One stuck on Gen. RPG Disc., one on Fight Club, and another that I use to do any other web surfing.  

Anything else I do, like browsing the RPG store, looking at the black pages, Browsing the Creature Catalog etc, I do off and on.  I mainly wait for the news page to let me know there is an update before I head to any other place.  

That's my boring life.  As you can see, it revolves around EN-stuff. I do manage to get time in with my family and actually play D&D every week and work on a couple of campaigns I run too, so don't feel too sorry for me.  I like the idea of trimming down the front page.  I understand you are feeling a bit like Corporate Bait as they pimp their press releases etc. and expect you to put it all over your site so they can get the views this community can generate.  I wish I could be more help, Mr. Morrus.  Anyway, I talk way too damn much.  Everyone have fun, Thanks Morrus, and happy gaming.


----------



## KB9JMQ (Jul 22, 2002)

By Daroketh (I think)
I







> I can see an almost daily column of your reporting on the industry happenings. No press releases! If a company can't take the time to address you personally, then they can just post their press releases on their own sites
> 
> This will actually be more work for you. You'll have to be proactive, which is a little difficult when you are thousands of miles from some of your sources. You'll have to probe your sources to get the scoop behind the press releases.




I agree with this.

Also - Keep the name. The recognition is very strong.
As for design, I read the news daily then click on the message boards link. I never read the left or right colums. (except for reading an occiasional review). I think the entire right column could go or be its own page.

Long time member - just not a poster


----------



## Henry (Jul 22, 2002)

My two cents:

OPINION: No name change - sense of history and recognition, and all that...

Second - I wholeheartedly agree with your direction as a "fan-first site". I too have noticed the paradigm shift of the main page of the site, and I rarely stay there anymore...

Third - If top-down menus _a la_ RPGShop.com are not an option, then nesting from a horizontal menu at both top and bottom would in my opinion be preferable.

Despite Eric's opinion (sorry, man!) Frames are much more functional if you fancy a multiple-resolution environment for a web page. Plus, you get similar benefits to pull-down menus. I myself find it more difficult to scroll all around a page with micro-print on it to find the section that contains the link I need, rather than using an in-place menu that contains the major links I need to get what I need.

I enjoy all the content you display, however - The conversion library is vital to me, and I hope it all gets converted soon. If I can assist with any conversions, please contact me. Also, the RPG resources page has proven its worth multiple times in the past week alone.

I hope that some of these opinions have helped, as I enjoy the site, and all it has to offer - ESPECIALLY since the server change for the forums!


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 22, 2002)

If it wasn't for ENworld I wouldn't even _be_ a d20 publisher. 

I appreciate ENworld as a marketing tool, sure, but I spend much more time browsing the Story Hour. I'll be here as a fan regardless of what you decide to do with the publisher/press-release issue.

My recommendation would be to stop posting them entirely. Just make it clear that you don't solicit press releases. You've already set up a forum for publishers, we can use that (and I do, on a regular basis). If you see something there that catches your eye or you have an opinion on, perhaps _then_ you can link it from the front page. The publishers are just going to have to come to grips with the fact that this is your site and you are entitled to your opinions. 

Finally, Morrus, I know you didn't name names, but I just want to say if I have ever come across as rude or demanding when I had my publisher's hat on, I apologize. 


Wulf


----------



## thg jim (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus,

Please don't change the name.

As far as publishers go, I think that it is real important that what is going on with us is presented to the fans.  I look for this every time I come on, just to see who is doing what.  Does this mean I want you to post all of our press releases?  Of course not.  The only reason I always sent you one was as a cc that was sent out to 30 or so different places.  We never really focused on you and I never asked you to post it on the front page.  Somehow, however, we all need to know what is being put out.  Maybe you could devote a day, like Friday, to news from the publishers, or something like that.  Just an idea.

Also, I think the reviews are very important.  I just don't think that new users can find them as easily as those of us who have been here for a while.  And the reviews should not be a regurgitation of a company press release.  I have only asked once or twice for someone to review our products, and all I ever said was that I wanted the truth.  Tell me what you think about it.  That is the best review, IMO.  The reviews are one of the most important part of this site.  If fans are looking for product, the company is not the place to go to look for and honest opinion.  The reviews page is the place to go.

I also sent you an email about the site design, which you may or may not want to look over and maybe share.  Again, just MO.

Thanks for doing such a great job.  I look at this site every day and I am sure that many others do the same.  I feel up to date after I have checked in with you.

Jim Govreau
Director of Thunderhead Games for MEG


----------



## rpghost (Jul 22, 2002)

Henry said:
			
		

> *Third - If top-down menus a la RPGShop.com are not an option, then nesting from a horizontal menu at both top and bottom would in my opinion be preferable.
> *




Funny you should mention that as I put together a quick prototype for Morrus during the design contest. I was just playing around (not trying to get any prize money) so it wasn't ever finished, but he has seen it. Check it out yourself and let him know some feedback (I think his main concern was that the drop down menu worked on all systems):

http://www.rpghost.com/ENWorld


James
RPG Host Networks


----------



## KDLadage (Jul 22, 2002)

*Hey Morrus! I might be shooting myself in the foot, but...*

Hey Morrus!

I can certainly understand the desire and need to get a "fresh" look, and to re-think the focus of the sight. There have been a lot of good ideas posted on these boards, in this thread, and I am sure that, in the end,the right choices will be made. You are a heck of aguy, and we all trust you. I think that is fair to say.

But, now to add my two copper's worth.
*The Name of the Site*: The bard has told us that a rose, by any other name, will still smell as sweet. But a web site that changes it's name too often will languish in the depths of internet hell. The name is recognizable, known and popular. I agree that perhaps a logo shift is in order (3EN for Third Edition News was good) -- but if for no other reason than to ensure that the title ENnies makes sense, I would keep the name.
*The Front Page*: One sidebar column is enough. Two is one too many. If teh stuff in the right sidebar is as important as you think, give it its own page.
*Settings*: Here is where I may be shooting myself. But in the interests of the site and some focus in it, it might be time to trime the settings off of teh site all together. Daemonforge could be give its own domain, I can certainly move Umbragia and Rich can move Aetasidus (not that he has much up there by way of that setting at the moment). I would not worry about the feelings of those who you are hosting right now -- but be polite: give them notice, let them understand why you are doing this and so on. Link to them in a "Free Settings" page perhaps, but hosting them might be too much.
*Do the things you like, not the things you think you need to do*: If ENWorld is a business, ignore this point. If it is a fan site, then heed its warning: you will go the way of the burned-out gamer if you do things because you think you have to. Do the things that make you smile, the things you enjoy and so on. Anything that is (as a friend over at Pyramid Online would say) HURTING WRONG FUN, drop it and don;t look back

That is my advice and thoughts on the matter. I wish you well on making the tough choices.


----------



## jakal (Jul 22, 2002)

Hey Russ, haven't spoken in a while, anyway here’s my feed back:

Name: Your call. Do what ever you want with it, ENworld isn't particularly meaningful, but we’re all used to it, and it’s out there.

Graphic Design: I say clean, sharp, simple. With games like d20 modern, farscape, spycraft and stuff around, going for an old school medieval theme would look lame.

Colours: Black on white is generally the easiest to read, if you are going to change them go that way, but the current ones are ok.

Navigation Design: I think that the consensus of 3 levels deep is about right (although I would go as deep as 4 for individual product reviews).

Back End: I would really automate all that through a unified database system. This makes updating, changing and customizing a lot better. Plus it means that users can customise the site for themselves.

Staffing: One thing you might want to consider is getting some more people on board to help with news and stuff. I know Eric helps with the guide sometimes but you really might want to consider some help for news and so on. Eric wasn’t good with getting help then he and had enough and burned out and it looks like you might be heading the same way. All the major games news site have more than one person helping out with the news and stuff.

Anyway that’s my major feedback. If you want any help with this stuff send me a mail. I’m pretty good with backend database stuff and I’ve always been a much better web designer than I am a graphic designer .

Jake


----------



## dema (Jul 22, 2002)

Wondering how to put all this.

Ok, Keep the name or change it, which ever. But people agree EN World is know, but the new name will catch quick too.


As for the goals of this site. It's for peeps like me who check the news, and see what's going on.  I know I only check out feebies myself and sometimes check out reviews of books recently released.  

The news nowadays is not that clerics get spontanous healing, and we think it works like this.  Or that the spell Haste gives you an extra partial action.  The news today is about the companies and what they are doing.  Perhaps if they leaked out game mechanics for a proposed naval or mass combat system, that would be news worthy like the old 3e news site. 



I'm sorry that the d20 publishers treat you like an automation.

With 3e here, we can not really have the feel 3e news had in 1999.  The what's coming stuff is really just more books, variant setting d20 stuff and such.  The mecanics and how things are going to work bit is not really a mystery.  Seems like the scope of this site should change alot.

It would be cool if the publishers can just post their own press releases (using that auto-code thing.)  And allow you to make biased and unbiased decisions on what should be new worthy for the front page.  You are after all the creative director and editor of sorts.  

My suggestion, like someone else said was to database the website, have someone set up a template.  


I still havn't found that framed site ( i can make an example if you'd like)  and the drop down menus are a good idea too, as well as the faux menus.  If you are worried about browser capabilities put a link for the newest browser and say you have to use this one (I'm sure most won't mind.) 

Morrus- you might want to consider cutting some sections out completely, or giving that task to another site?  there are plenty of automated review sites out there, you can just link to that. 

Just some thoughts, not really solutions.
-dem


----------



## Balsamic Dragon (Jul 22, 2002)

My suggestions:

Take everything that you receive that reads like: 

"This website has put up some new content this day/week that is substantially similar to the content that they put up every day/week" and trash it.

This includes both publishing sites (WOTC, etc.) as well as fan sites (Claudio P., etc.)

I think the worst example was a couple of days ago where it was news that some fan site put a new spell (one new spell!) up on their site.  Unless it is really big news, like a brand new feature of the page or something like info on the fantasy setting search, leave it out.

Also trash anything that goes:

"Company X announced that their new product will be released/has been released/has been spotted in stores."

Replace these two items with two new sub-pages, updated as necessary:

First, a (weekly?) feature on a single publisher or fan-run webpage.  What they have up, what is interesting, how often they update, why we might or might not want to go there.  You can do this yourself, or you can farm it out to other enworlders, who I am sure would be happy to volunteer.

Second, a list, updated as often as is possible, of upcoming products from various publishers.  This would be easier to update than adding press releases, as you could just change:

"Epic Level Handbook: due out in mm/yy"
to
"Epic Level Handbook: in stores now!"
or even perhaps
"Epic Level Handbook: in stores now, read reviews _here_."

Those two changes would drastically cut down on the minutia of keeping the page up-to-date.  The publishers information would be available, but not as an advertisement for their product.  Other websites, both fan and publisher, would have to rely on their own traffic to get updates to fans.  

As a side note, I'm sure that WOTC appreciates the fact that we can check your page to see what updates it has, but it might make them focus on keeping their page available 24/7 if we actually had to visit there often to check updates!

Balsamic Dragon


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 22, 2002)

Well, I haven't read this whole thing but I can give you some hints.

- Change the color scheme to something lighter. Dark and yellow was "cool" back in 1994. I prefer white, light gray, blue and orange. You CAN use dark background, but it is very tricky to get the professional feel with those colors. www.hardocp.com is a good example of a professional black site.
- I would suggest you to "sort of" integrate the main page with the forum, like www.asusboards.com .
- Keep the name. I like it.
- Merge some of the sections and put everything old in archives. Like "Magic", i don't care about the PHB stuff, i want to read about magic in new books.

More to come, dinner


----------



## Grazzt (Jul 22, 2002)

How about changing the name to "The Site formerly known as ENWorld"????


----------



## dbasinge (Jul 22, 2002)

Here are the changes I would suggest.

1. Lighten the site. I do like current site, but I think white backgrounds with some color (red, blue or green) look best.

2. Use a slashdot format for news,  you could train some moderator monkeys to approve news stories posted by user. This would allow Morrus to work on the more fun fan stuff. News stories could have sorted by topic and people could filter there news as wanted. Slashcode is free, and easy to setup.

3. The forum need work, but I have no idea what would be best to do to them.

Also, if you are a D20 publisher and not donating freely lots of money to this site then you basically suck. Almost all the D20 product I have purchased have been to news/review from this site.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 22, 2002)

rpghost said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Funny you should mention that as I put together a quick prototype for Morrus during the design contest. I was just playing around (not trying to get any prize money) so it wasn't ever finished, but he has seen it. Check it out yourself and let him know some feedback (I think his main concern was that the drop down menu worked on all systems):
> 
> ...




Do you have a license to use that menu?


----------



## KnowTheToe (Jul 22, 2002)

Morrus,

Greetings and congratulations.  I bet you have put a lot of thought into this.  Many of your comments on previos posts, your site redesign contest and now this point out the beginning signs of burnout.  Please, change the site to help foster a new direction, a direction that is closer to your personal vision and not the hybrid of the EN page and D20reviews.

I think a redesign can only help re-energize and focus the site.  Just read many of the threads in the general forum, they are little more than light hearted Polls and banter.  Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading and participate in many of them, but there are very few threads offering serious or useful help.  My suggestion is the same to many before me.

Streamline the community, too many segmented forums, clean and reorganize the site layout/tree and create something new.  We do not know what your vision is which makes it difficult for us to give clear inspiring solutions.  

Get rid of the press release section and any other part that is not in line with where you want to go.  We have faith in your judgement and are appreciative of all your hard work.   If you don't enjoy this neither will we.

thanks again.

Fro


----------



## widderslainte (Jul 22, 2002)

I felt the need to donate a few bucks before I spoke my mind.

- Name:  At least keep the address - that would be a pain for less fequent visitors.   Any of the 3EN ideas wouldnt' be bad but I don't think the name is a big deal as is.

- Colours:  As others have said, they are soothing.  My girlfriend wonders hows I can work on computers all day, then comes home and read your site for another hour or two.  I've seen a number of sites with different color schemes, tied to cookies or a login.  Maybe that would satisfy those who want a change.

- Reorgazation:  I think the front page could use a little tidying.  I concur with the 3 links-in perspective.  I do think some sort of databse back end could make you life a lot easier.  Let it manage the input of text and the output of formating.  Then you just run down the list and check of what to post or not.  Spend more time on picking good content rather than typing and formatting.  I think everyone is here for information, not style, and whatever allows for more of it is a good thing.

- Promotion/reviews:  Reviews are very good.  Keep them linked fromone page and go nuts.  A promotion forum could work out nicely, maybe with links to the top 3 or 5 threads on the font page down in a corner.  If you want a little revenue, take a small donation if they want to post covers or images.

- Forums: [tags} would be helpful, even if the structureis kept the same.  I see some overlap in the Rule & House Rules forums.  I wouldn't mind a big House Rules/Plots & Places/General Homebrew  forum to be prominent.  It might take some of the traffic out of the general discussion.


----------



## Krellic (Jul 22, 2002)

I've been logging on daily, or almost daily, to this site ever since I found it, back in the days when Eric was god.  It's help sell more D20 gear to me than anything but that's me I'm just weak-willed 

As a traditionalist I like ENWorld, though 3EN or 3ENWorld has possibilities.  Hey let's go straight for 4EN and start the speculation now!

I think along with the 'brand name' the look of the site is as important as anything and I like the colour scheme.  It seemed a bit weird when the esteemed morrus took over and we were all golden for a few weeks.

Yes the front page is far too busy and crowded and the links need organising, I'm no web-head so I believe on keeping things simple.  Simple to maintain yet doing the job.  Easier said than done.

There was a time when this site went out and made the news and it would be nice to see that kind of energy happening again.  There are a lot of d20 publishers and this is an important nexus for d20 but this does not mean to say morrus becomes a corporate shill   Link to press releases separately by all means.  There's never enough to read on the news page!

My main problem with the news page is its just too long, it goes on and on and so do the sidebars... 

I find the monthly releases colourful but not all that useful, except to make me wish some of the stuff got into the shops quicker.  That brings me back to spending too much money on d20 gear...


----------



## SixFootGnome (Jul 22, 2002)

[ramble]
Okay, so you finally got me, Morrus.  Old-time reader of Eric's site, and I'd gone all this way without making an account on the boards or really even reading them.  Curse You! *shakes fist at the heavens emotively*

Okay, so that out of the way, on to what baited me to make an account: the potential redesign of the site.

It seems to me, from your post on the main-page and from finally wading through the whole thread, that what you're especially interested in is distinguishing yourself from the marketing wing of the d20 industry.  I don't have any real easy advice there.  To a greater or lesser extent, all websites for someone who offers a good or service for sale are marketing, the only difference is how genuinely the website is offered independent of a desire to promote themselves.  Still, knowing that means that I'm not going to spend my breath on a lot of recommendations for look and feel.  If things have gotten overgrown around here, usually the layout has been fine by me.

That said, here's what I do and don't use ENworld for.  The number one most useful thing you do, in my books, is keep track of what community webpages have been updated.  You do them and me both a service, because I'd never have the patience to check back for months without an update, so I check here instead and can follow a link to the site that's been updated.

Slightly less useful is announcements of when a given product is actually available for sale.  I really don't care about any other product announcements other than when it is actually on sale.  If the publisher is working on it or sent it to the printers, it isn't worth my time to read 99 times out of 100.

I also appreciate links to reviews of products, particularly when they are from a reviewer I have some faith in.

I don't USE the boards here, but I recognize their value and wouldn't want them to go.  Your Message Board roundup is about the right level of involvement for me, and I appreciate it.

In short, I'm 100% in favor of getting rid of all or nearly all product awareness information for things that aren't out yet.  I understand that this would be a major paradigm shift from Eric's website which started it all, but I don't think that the community is any longer truly in the mode of eagerly anticipating a particular product (and certainly not every product out there) as it was for the initial release of 3E.  At the very least, this stuff can be de-emphasized.  As there is a day for message board roundups from the message board area, perhaps there would be a press releases and upcoming products section and a weekly update to the main page with items of particular interest.

Now on to the nearly irrelevant stuff that I said I'd leave alone, just because I can resist a 'me too' while I'm here:

Look and feel is generally good.  I like the nostalgic color scheme and all, although some minor changes wouldn't be offensive.  I'd like to add a 'me too' to a minor dislike for three columns, and also in favor of considering at least the judicial use of frames to provide an easy navigation tool.

As to names, I think that you aren't going to escape the name ENworld no matter what, and don't think that it is worth trying.  The name works.  If you wanted to change the logo a couple of things like that to freshen things up, a '3EN' logo could look cool and would be a nice pun/word play which would let Eric further hide his name... 
[/ramble]

And that's enough rambling and opinions from me for present.

SFG DM 12 LG (Lawful Gnomish)


----------



## Imnop (Jul 22, 2002)

Here's a list of some possible name/focus changes to consider, and then reject immediately in favor of keeping the name EN World. 

Classic 2nd Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons News - C2E AD&D News - It would not require as many daily updates.

Squirrel's d20 Nuts - Sd20 Nuts - You might have to merge with an existing site, but how could you go wrong with handing out “The Nutties” to award winners at GENCon.

Cow’s News & Notes - CN&N - Updates to the site would be done by a different person every single day.

Unofficial Charwomen Gene’s Pantheon World - UCGP World - Every message board member would also have the god like power to be a moderator.  All posted messages would be run through a translator program at least twice.  Think of the chaos.

Unofficial Son of a Preacher Man's Fire Pellet News - Unofficial SOAPMan's FP News - All fire pellet discussions, all the time.

The Official March 32nd d20 News & Reviews - TOM32 d20 News & Reviews - A new d20 April Fools Joke every day.

A Murder of d20 Updates/The Hidden RPG Land Shrine/The Third Edition Black Lodge - No comment can be made on these three name changes.


----------



## Dragongirl (Jul 22, 2002)

1) Rather the name was not changed though 3EN as has been suggested would be ok.  Anything else would just make the reputation the site has disappear as no one would know what it was.

2) I have been coming to this site every day since Eric Noah's site was closed.  The only thing I really do is read the news which I find very useful and will be disappointed if there is a big change there.  I like being able to come here and see what is being written out there as well as the latest antics of WOTC.

3) I agree with another poster about taking out some types of news you do.  The thing with having a news entry because some campaign site has a new spell is kinda silly.  I have 3 campaign worlds and can't imagine having a news line on your site every time I update something (almost every day).  In fact I have not even submitted 2 of the sites because I dont feel they are worthy of being looked at yet.

4) Besides the news I do use the D20 publisher guide to take a look around.  This is my first post on your message boards, since it takes absolutely forever to get pages to load on the boards.  Really can't stand that so never look anymore.


----------



## Dragongirl (Jul 22, 2002)

Oh ya, and please make your news links open in a new window.


----------



## lbcadden (Jul 22, 2002)

How I use site.

Main page.
-Site updates
-Product announcements
-Industry news

Forums


-----------------------------------

Suggestions

-No name change
-3 levels
-Be carefull with background and text colors
-Publishers post their press releases in special forum(or sent to you, this is where they go)
-Ditch righthand column
-Todays news only, put previous news in a special forum(sans graphics)
-When a new product is available at enworld rpg shop this goes on news page, at top, only exception to one day rule(no more than a week though)


2cents


----------



## Hawkmoon (Jul 22, 2002)

Hey Morrus.

I registered just to comment on this. I am all for making the site more personal and community based. Right now I basicly come just for the product news, but I agree that removing press releases from the main page is a great idea. This issue is not about redesigning the site, it is about your integrity. You may not put it this bluntly, but there is no reason for you to pimp yourself off for publishers, so make any changes you want. 

I like the idea of making publishers post their press releases in the forums. When there is a new press release just update the main page saying something like "Press Releases Updated in Publisher Forum" that provides a link to the form and thats it. No need to even identify the publisher. This also may create more traffic for the forums, and then fans of certain publishers will be more likely to reply to the press release, that will lead hopefully to more interaction between the publishers and the fans. Communications between fans and publishers is always a good thing. The will also de-businessfy the front page.

Remove the upcoming products from the front page altogether(instead just have a seperate link altogether). That will definately shift the tone of the main page. Instead of having an upcoming products page, try to find popular threads about products on the message boards and link them to the main page. This will let you know what products we are intrested in, and therefore what is newsworthy for the main page, plus more traffic for the boards means more interaction between fans and hence a better community.

Editorial - You should write some editorials (if that intrests you of course). Maybe once every two weeks on something that strikes you about either the Industry, Fan Community, or maybe just nifty spell that you found and how you used it in a campaign etc etc. Even take editorial submissions(an editorial on the whole forgotten rums thing would be cool)... maybe put up a fan editorial once every two weeks (hence you would switch off with a fan)... as a fan, I think it would be cool to see an article I wrote on the main page(if it was good enough of course)... This would hopefully inspire those not participating in the community(other than just reading the front page) to do so....

I never had an interest in the forums before, but the message board round up has me browsing the forums alot more often. That is way I suggest just puting stuff in the forum and linking it to the main page.

I like good meaty interviews with game designers.  Some interviews are fluff, but I remember liking some of the interviews that were on the site a while back (my memory fails me). Interviews that just pimp a product just suck. I thought Monte's Line of Sight was lost forever when he went two weeks with just having what seemed like scripted buy my stylish product interviews with Bruce and Sean, luckily his have gotten back to being more interesting.

Maybe once a month feature a homebrew campaign site that you found interesting. I've found a few that are quite detailed, are of professional quality, and better than some products out there. Along the same lines, once a week feature a fan created spell, item, monster, or story that you liked. Erics idea of removing company text from the D20 idea is really good also.

The D20 product reviews(when they are from a reliable source) are a great help, but these don't need to be on the main page.

I have a general distaste for the way the business game is played in america (especially corporate america) and wouldn't mind seeing a shift to a community site and less buy our product type PR.

Thanks for making a great site.

Hawkmoon


----------



## talien (Jul 22, 2002)

*My Suggestions for Redesign*

Hi Morrus!

Looking at the site from a design perspective, here's my advice:

Studies show that a reader's eyes, when browsing the web, focus from top left to top right in a straight line.  Then, depending on what the next element is, the reader's focus moves to that item (say, a flashy graphic) or alternately moves diagonally downward.  In that relatively small, one screenfull of space, you have to get your points across or you're losing readers.

As of right now, that 3E design sucks up bandwidth and is unpleasant looking.  It could just as easily be a black background -- it serves no purpose as it is not effectively branding the site since we can't see it hidden in the background.

So Step #1: Get a better logo.  The logo should probably tie in the 3rd edition part.  New viewers who look at this site have no idea what in the world the site has to do with the letter "N".  It needs to be more obvious, more flashy, and incorporate the Third-Edition News aspect.  I'd say run a contest for that before jumping to web site design.

Step #2: If you recall my comments at the beginning of this post, the eye starts in the top left corner of the screen.  The first impression is created there.  This is where you get my attention, ever so briefly, so you must use it wisely.  This is what I see now:

A) The logo.  Good, I should know where I'm at.  
B) The advertiser.  Not so good.  One second into the site and you're distracting with an advertisement.  Which is, in essence, encouraging me to go somewhere else.  Between the logo and the advertisement, there needs to be more content about the actual site.  And I say this knowing that I'm one of those advertisers. 

My eye scrolls back in zig-zag fashion to the far left again, and this is what I get:
C) Support EN World.  Whoa.  I don't even know what your site is about and the first thing you're conveying (at this point, third thing) is that you want me to support you?  It comes too early.
D) Contact Me.  Important info -- but contact you about what?  I haven't actually read the site yet.
E) Logos.  Logos for what?  Logos for who?  ENWorld logos?  Why do I care about this?
F) Advertising.  By this point my impression of this site is that it is a news agency.  Which is precisely what people see it as -- everything here is about 1) getting money for the site (advertising, supporting EnWorld) or contacting the site owner to help advertise the site (logos, advertising, contact me).  None of it has anything to do with the site's PRIMARY purpose.
G) Links.  Good, but again this is another incentive for me to leave the site.
H) Reviews/D20 Guide.  AH HA!  Here it is.  This is what I came for.  Why is it all the way at the far end of the navigation?  It should be first, way before Supporting EN World.

We're not even at the news yet. 

The next thing I notice is that big, gold medal.  Oooh, SHIIIIINNNNYYYY.  Except I can't read it (for some reason, it's cloaked in shadow).  This is the right place for such a medal to be -- it's the only graphic element on the page and it caught my eye.  But it really should incorporate the ENWorld logo into it (these are the ENnies after all).  Heck, it could temporarily replace the logo -- you'll recall, that's the #1 best spot to advertise what your site is. 

Then we have the STUFF.  And boy do we have a lot.  The stuff categories include Community, Guides, E.N.Zines, The Black Pages, Resources, Settings/d20 Games, ENnies, Email Updates, and Donations.  That's just the left side. 

On the right side: Current Contests, Online Store, Hosted Sites, WotC Product Schedule, and Future Rumors.

In the middle: News and Archived News.

Let me state up front the top three reasons I come to ENWorld: 
1) News
2) The Messageboards
3) ENWorld Guides to companies/publishers (because I freelance)

I think the top navigation has it right.  So why reproduce it?  Let's take the categories already created by the top navigation and lay them out a little better.

ADVERTISING:  Why not have a link under the advertising banner which says "if you'd like to advertise in this space, click here"?  Under this category F) which is how to advertise, and E) logos which is more advertising.  Community Supporters belong in this sub-page too.
SUPPORT EN WORLD: It's really obvious that EN World really really REALLY wants to be supported.  It's listed first in the top left navigation, then under Community, then in the bottom left.  This strikes me as unnecessary.  Once is fine.  
REVIEWS/D20 GUIDE:  The fact that this has a slash in it is a hint.  I do not associate Reviews with D20 Guide.  A guide is not a review, and a review is not a guide.  They are two separate things -- one presumably being more impartial than the other.  This distinction is preserved in the top navigation, but not the left, where the Guides category contains the D20 review information.  I suggest breaking this up into two categories: a guide for those interested in learning about companies and products, and a review section for those who are just interested in the reviews.
LINKS: To where?  This doesn't explain to me why I should go to those links.  Nix it.
COMMUNITY: Moving on to the left navigation, this is a good idea.  It's one of the main reasons I think many people visit ENWorld.  It deserves to be on that top bar navigation.  Get rid of Community Supporters and Support ENWorld.
E.N.ZINES:  What?  What are these?  Why should I read them?  Perhaps put a small graphic that represents the covers for the two zines.  Titles alone don't draw me.  What are they offering that ENWorld doesn't already?  Why should I go there?  
THE BLACK PAGES:  Okay, Black Pages to me means that you're boycotting something.  Remember that?  This doesn't mean anything to me.  It's content.  Looks like a guide to me.
RESOURCES: This is like the Links section.  Isn't everything a resource?  It looks like these are guides too.
SETTINGS/D20 GAMES: More content hopping off the front page.  
ENNIES:  Here we have the ENnies again -- the archive should be linked to that big gold medallion.  That's all you really need (and certainly, if they're important, they don't belong in the bottom left corner).
STORE: Of all the things on this page, the store is the most appropriately placed. I won't look at it every time since it's in the place I read least (the far right hand side), but it's got pretty graphics to draw me over there.  I would leave that. 
CONTESTS: The Contests, on the other hand, dont' belong there.  If they're urgent contests that fluctuate often, it should be on the left -- where my focus is.
HOSTED SITES: More links to other places.  
PRODUCT SCHEDULE: Like the store, this is ideally located on the right.  Not a lot of content, but lots of flash.
NEWS: Ahhhh, news.  Sweet news.  It's the number one thing we read.  So why is it cloaked in gold lettering on a black background, which is not easy to read?  Why do I have to scroll down to read the other days?  This is what I suggest:
NEWS ARCHIVE: Even better, a little calendar (that can easily be done in HTML) which links to each day for the past month would be great.  So if I want to see what happened last Thursday, I can just look at the calendar and click down.  This would fit on the left/right columns and would work well as a flashy item.

My short attention span has me focused on the big sea of gold text only for a few seconds.  Rather than make me work for what I'm looking for, how about summarizing the categories for each day.  Each short intro would be a link further down the page.

SITE NEWS: Site Redesign
NEW AT WOTC: Random Encounters, In the Works, & Olidammara's Dice...
D20 SYSTEM NEWS: Fantages Studio, Ral Partha Europe, & Fiery Dragon
COMMUNITY NEWS: Emerald Night, Call of the Horn, Netbook of NPCs, Tablesmith
REVIEWS: Blight Magic, Occult Lore, & Way of the Ninja.

You've just made my browsing a thousand times easier.  Better yet, I can now decide what I want to read about what happened on Monday in a flash.  I then click on any one of the above links and instantly scroll down to the anchors on the page.

You can do this for each day and then make better use of the space on the right or left by putting in the previous day's summary.  It's short, catchy, and most importantly useful.  It gets me the news I want right away.

Since the site scrolls a lot, the other links off the page (ENZines, D20 worlds, etc.) are best served by small icons identifying them and distinguishing them from each other -- almost as if they were products out of the WOTC catalog on the left.  That would definitely get my attention when I scrolled down.  Little is served by simply having a static link on the left-hand side.  That leaves more room for navigation.

To review.  Across the very top: ENWORLD LOGO | ADVERTISING
Second row: D20 GUIDE | REVIEWS | COMMUNITY | CONTACT
Left Column: NEWS CALENDAR | ENNIES | CONTESTS | ENZINES | D20 GAMES (each treated like a separate product with icons rather than a list)
Middle Column: NEWS SUMMARY | NEWS
Right Column: ONLINE STORE | WOTC PRODUCT SCHEDULE

Hope that's helpful!

Mike "Talien" Tresca
http://www.retromud.org/talien


----------



## Nail (Jul 22, 2002)

FWIW, I use ENWorld for:

 WotC gossip (that's distinct from "press release")
 other publisher gossip (again, not their press releases)
 Messageboards (Story Hour, Rules, General)
 Product reviews

Anything else can be stuffed into a box an' shoved under th' guest-bed.

....But seriously, bottom line is jus' do what interests *you*.  The rest o' us are jus' along fer th' ride.

"Stay good, Morrus! Stay good!"


----------



## Warchild (Jul 22, 2002)

The top ten reasons i come to ENWorld is News, Reviews, and messageboards. Repeat as necessary to fill out the rest of the top ten list! 

I took a look at those sample drop down menus and i have to say i think they are VERY nice. I have no idea how difficult or expensive they might be, though.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 22, 2002)

Talien, without realizing it, points out a decision that needs to be made - optimize the site for new users, or for older ones? 

Much of Talien's advice is very good - if the point is to grab and keep the attention of a new user.  But by Morrus' reports, the site is plenty "sticky" as it is.  Even with a sub-optimal design, the site sees more use as time goes on, rather than less.

Someone familiar with the site doesn't need a logo telling them more about where they are.  They don't mind, and probably even want, attractive, on-topic advertising near the top of the page.  They'll want the contact links easily accessible near the top to report scoops, and suchlike.

When redisigning, it helps to keep in my the purpose of that redesign.


----------



## snimmo (Jul 23, 2002)

Morrus,

Regarding your desire for EnWorld to be viewed a community site and not just a tool or resource.

Have you had a look at sites like http://slashdot.org/?
This allows a display of stories and allow any members to comment, they have moderation (by the users with "sufficient karma") so comments that are interesting, entertaining or useful stand out while chaff fades into the background.

There are plenty of websites that use their code (I believe the
SWRPG website is one). 
You can check more stuff out at:
http://slashdot.org/code.shtml

This might be the way you want to go. You have the audience to pull this off (unlike the hundreds trying to do it from scratch).

At least then you can spend more time being a fan rather than administrator and EnWorld can become the "home" of the d20 community while still being the news resource to the industry.

(gee: I am not the only one who registered an account just to reply to this. ;-) )


regards,
Scott


----------



## Conaill (Jul 23, 2002)

I'd have to second a lot of what Eric said. Most of the points he mentioned he loved about maintaining the old site are precisely the things I came to the site for!

*"Putting the pieces together. Detective work. Anonymous scoops."* This, I think, is the CORE of the news page. In Eric's time, the front page would be full of scoops. Today, I counted only 5 scoopers on the entire page. Make sure you acknowledge every single scooper that sends you something useful, there's no better way to nurture that community feeling!

On the other hand I would devote a lot less space to publisher info, new releases etc. You could integrate "New at WotC" as a single bulletin under "d20 System News". For example, today you would have:


New at WotC: Random Encounters: "Shopping, darling ..."; In the Works: D20 Modern; Olidammara's Dice web utlity.

Overall, I would prefer the front page to be much less focused on WotC. They're just one of many d20 publishers nowadays. So get rid of that entire tight hand column, and give the main center col;umn a little more "air" to breathe. (By the way, that yellow size="-2" text you used for the redisign discussion on the fron page is almost impossible to read!)

For new and upcoming releases, you could just have a single bullet with product names and dates (if that!)

*"Rules Illustrated Pieces"* These were GREAT. The AoO page is a classic, and could probably be updated a little. A couple of examples along the lines of Gamestoppers (but with less errors ) could come in handy as well.


Overall, I'd like to see more gossip and utilities, and less corporate...


----------



## broghammerj (Jul 23, 2002)

*Is money for the site still an issue*

I was just wondering since you don't like being a tool for the man so to speak (the man being the rpg companies),  how financially sound is the site?  Will that be an issue in the redesign.  Is maximizing advertising a prioity.  Just wondering?


----------



## dracos23 (Jul 23, 2002)

Morrus,

     I refused to register for these boards for a long time but this discussion has brought me out of the woodwork.  Whatever you need to do to make this site work for you, do.

     I hit this site as soon as I get home from work and read every piece of news posted.  Group the press releases in their own forum.  Comment only if it is something you feel is important to the community.  If you would want to, editorials would be great. 

Thanks for the great job you do in the community.


----------



## Soulmage (Jul 23, 2002)

*Site Redesign*

Morrus, don't be afraid to change the name.  You've got such a huge user base that within two weeks everybody will be using the new name like it was always the name of the site.  Might I suggest that if you're redesigning the site "from the ashes" you incorporate "Phoenix" into the name somehow?

While history is a good thing, things change (especially websites).  In fact, web sites HAVE to continue to evolve if they're going to stay vibrant and alive.  This is natural and good.

Remember all those nay sayers who loudly and vociferously exclaimed against 3E saying it wasn't needed, and it was just a ploy to scam gamers out of money?  We don't hear much from those folks these days.  New is a good thing.  Look at what "new" has done for our hobby. . . a veritable D&D rennaissance!


Just as you redesign the site please focus on readability and speed.  We don't come here for pretty pictures, just great content.

As somebody suggested, I'd love to see you write some editorials yourself.  I really enjoy reading Monte's fevered ravings  I'm sure I'd enjoy hearing what you have to say.  You have the power to become one of the biggest voices in the gaming industry.  Use it.  Carpe diem!

Keep up the great work!


----------



## ashockney (Jul 23, 2002)

*If it ain't broke...*

Break it!

Name:  As a fan, I say keep ENWorld for the nostalgia and relevance to all of us who've been here, as fans, and for all those we hope to pass this tradition on to.  It provides a sense of history.  I love to tell the story of the origin of the site to others.
I think that branding is a business concept, that has more to do with how to maximize the profitability of your site, and I don't think it belongs in this discussion.  

What do I LOVE about ENWorld (in order of importance):
*LOVE the dirt, the juice, the stuff, and the scoops. 
*Industry professionals: Monte, Sean, Ryan, Anthony and others
*Industry paragons: Gary, Dave, Peter, and all.
*Crunchy FREE DnD stuff - new spells, items, feats, prestige classes, etc. (regardless of publisher)  
* What has buzz and WHY - 3rd Ed PH, Epic, EQ RPG, NWN, etc.
* DM Tools - Creature Catalog, Generators, Character Sheets, etc.
* DM Advice - What do I do? Here's what I did! & Storyhours
* Messageboards - for all above plus min/max, Iron DM, etc.

By the way, there's no better place on the web to get all of the above IN SPADES.  Kudos.

What I like, and use sometimes (in order):
*Forgotten Realms updates (particularly WOTC)
*Info about new and upcoming WOTC and S&S stuff
*Watch for open calls and d20 contests and updates
*Categorized resources like Errata, Black Pages, Links
*Cool new non-dnd stuff like d20 supers or d20 modern

What I wouldn't miss (in no particular order, no offense):
*Chat Rooms
*Settings
*Reviews on the myriad of non-major d20 published stuff
*EN Zines
*Hosted Sites (wouldn't miss from main page)
*RPG Store
*WOTC Product Schedule
*Advertisements - a necessary evil, sometimes

What I drool for:
More from the industry icons -- Why were decisions made, what are the numbers behind it, where is the industry going, what's great that we can't miss...use your site as leverage for more interviews, deeper analysis and the biggest scoops.  

Reviews:  I agree with Monte Cook's statement that Reviews should be done only by those that have a vested stake in the success of the industry.  Therefore, if the review isn't by an icon of the industry, I really don't have any interest in reading through it.  I would be interested, however, in seeing Amazon.com style listings of reviews with information like top 10 sellers in retail and top 10 sellers online.  If you wanted to find out more info, you could jump into a messageboard/posting of all the comments from the many reviewers/purchasers.  I would ENCOURAGE the designers and writers to RESPOND on those same threads...let the buyer make the final decision.  Hot products will get many, many reviews, giving a better overall system for reviews.

Calendar:  I'd certainly love to see an all inclusive d20 publishing calendar of upcoming releases.  I love hype!  But I'd like to pick through it for myself, and leave it to scoops from yourself or others to get the "buzz" on what's HOT and WHY.  I love the idea of the "status" being listed for each product (on time, delayed, published) for each.  It would be cool if you could click on the link to go to a messageboard post with press releases and/or reviews of the product in question.  Let publishers pimp all they want but move it off the main "scoop" board and behind the d20 product catalog.

More FAN Community Stuff - Community gatherings, community bonding (ie, q&a or messageboards dedicated to finding out more about each other, interests hobbies, etc.), community gaming events, community cartoons (PvP is awesome, there must be others like it out there), community contests (Iron DM, best new module, min/max, BADD) 

What makes me cringe:
Regular Updates - I'd hate to see us end up with less scoops.  I'll take some crap mixed in with the scoops in order to get the most and best scoops!  I love being able to find something, ANYTHING, to read about DnD each day.

Pre-fab Press Releases Posted In Full Automatically - Hate 'em.  Don't do it.  I won't read through them.  There's too much crap, and this will take up too much space, lessening the liklihood that I'll have the time to visit regularly.

Politics - Sorry, but the ennies make me cringe.  As do reviews.  As do posts from my favorite administrator feeling like he's turning tricks and not getting paid.  I'm sure there are ways that you can make this work, but I neither understand or appreciate the ENies.  Contests that determine winners and losers IN THE INDUSTRY are political, period.  

Mission Statements - this is modern management crap at it's finest!   Doesn't it make you cringe to think about doing something like this?  I'm sure it makes everyone else cringe, too.  If I were a consultant or an advisor, however, I'd tell you that it's  a natural part of the process of DEFINING yourself (or your entity), and it should be done.  I would encourage you to overcome the willies, set aside the time, and do it.

Ok, having said all that, I'd like to close with the disclaimer that ALL OF THE ABOVE is directed towards making ENWorld the PREMIERE fan-based web site on the internet.  

If your mission is to become the most PROFITABLE COMMUNITY site on the internet, I've got completely different comments (because what I love, is only relevant in so far as it is MAKING YOU MONEY, and the rest is garbage that is COSTING YOU MONEY).  

Please note that these are MY opinions only, and are not intended in any way to offend the many fine publishers, freelancers, hosted sites, campaign worlds, and reviewers at ENWorld.


----------



## JDRay (Jul 23, 2002)

<pant, pant, pant>

Whew!  Eight pages of posts in a thread, and all of them with content.  I think that's a new record!  I'm worn out from reading them all.

But enough about me...

Well, almost enough.  I use ENWorld for the following:
-News on a daily basis.
-Press releases from publishers to see what the state of the game is.
-Messageboards (primarily House Rules).

The parts of the site that I would like to see moved down (in levels):
-WotC's product releases (and the rest of the right column).
-Yesterday's news.

As far as design goes, I like the idea of one navigation frame, either to the left or on top (my preference is for the left, but that's minor).

Using the tiers that Morrus described earlier, I think a DHTML or JavaScript type popup menu that lets you navigate directly to the spot you want to go with no additional page loading would be both easy to implement and useful for users.  Of course, "easy to implement" is a relative term.

I seem to be one of the few that appreciate the press releases that get posted.  I will say that I only appreciate the actual information there and not the advertising schlock that gets slipped in.  Too many adjectives do not make a good release.  That said, I would still like to see  press releases on the home page, though possibly separated in their own box at the bottom of the daily news.

Speaking of which, I'd like to see only today's news on the front page with quick links to previous days for this week across the top of the news section.

And, about today's news, I agree with those who say that WotC stuff should be relegated to a single entry in the D20 System News group.  Keep the Messageboard Roundup.  It gets me interested in other parts of the messageboards.

There have been several comments here about content management systems.  As an IT guy, I can't say enough about the value of source control.  I don't know anything about phpNuke or any of the rest that have been touted here, but being able to store content in a database and configure it differently for different uses (one way on the home page, another in a search list, a third in a sub-page) is invaluable.  One heretofore unavailable feature that this sort of thing would enable is the ability to get a history of a product that you're interested in.  Want to know about _The Giant Tome of Crunchy Bits_?  Go find it's listing under it's publisher and see everything that was reported about it on ENWorld.  CMSes shouldn't be difficult to manage, even for someone with less experience at web stuff than you, Morrus.

So long as people are pointing out site's that they like, I just looked at Ladyofdragons' site and have to say that I like it quite a bit from a visual perspective.  I can't say anything about the content, as I just skimmed the page.  Maybe refer to it for ideas, though.

Enough for now.  Whatever you do, keep it up.

Best regards,

JD


----------



## William Ronald (Jul 23, 2002)

Hello, Morrus:

Sometime back a poster said he thought that the difference between Eric Noah's site and the current EN World that Eric's site felt more like visiting a friend's house and your site felt more like sticking around a friendly hobby shop.  While I do not quite agree with this, sometimes it seems that the site has taken on an almost corporate feel.  I do agree with your sentiment that some publishers may think of your site as an extension of their marketing efforts.   I see EN World (or whatever you chose to name it) as a fan-based site with news, information, and very good discussions.  I have meet people on these boards whom I am proud to call friends.

I like the news, but perhaps all but the most important items can be put elsewhere on the site.   I understand what it is like to be deluged with press releases (I used to be a reporter, and sometimes the press releases were a little excessive.)  The suggestion to have a link for press releases would be a good idea.  Mind you, a press release about an important topic can be news.  However, one thing I like about this site is its ability to go beyond just the mere press releases.   This site has had many of the best people in the gaming industry as visitors and members.

When I was a reporter, I had to make sure to have more than one side of the story.  Occcassionally, I would have a source who just wanted a press release printed.  I explained that was not the nature of my job.  A press release can be a foundation for news, but in some cases you really need to go beyond them.   Hopefully, the publishers will talk with you.

Possibly a rumors page, as it exists now, would be a good idea.  It might encourage people to talk to you, rather than just let rumors pop up.

So, if there is something important, try to talk to someone.  I realize that your time is limited and this may not be practical.  However, I understand and respect your desire not to be a marketing arm of a company.  So, what level of news reporting that you do is your decision.  Perhaps all you need to do is to have rumors and just the most important stories on the front page.  Everything else could perhaps go in the publisher's forum.

I like the black background, but don's see much use for a logo that is usually invisible.  The color scheme is soothing for the eyes.  The right hand navigation bar is perhaps unnecessary with the change in focus.

Do keep the message boards, but perhaps reorganize them for ease of use.  I enjoy them immensely, and have had many meaningful discussions on them.  I also have meet people whom I respect and like as individuals.  The messageboards really help give me a sense of community.  Ultimately, this site has been successful because of its members and the team that works diligently to keep this site running.  

As for the name, EN World does have a certain value of being traditional.  However, if you can think of a good name that helps explain what this site is all about, use it.  I think someone suggested Everything New d20.  This could be done as EN d20, and seems a compromise between various positions.

Finally, I would like to thank you and all the people whose hard work makes this site possible.  Regardless of the changes, I plan to stick around.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: If it ain't broke...*



			
				ashockney said:
			
		

> *Ok, having said all that, I'd like to close with the disclaimer that ALL OF THE ABOVE is directed towards making ENWorld the PREMIERE fan-based web site on the internet.
> 
> If your mission is to become the most PROFITABLE COMMUNITY site on the internet, I've got completely different comments (because what I love, is only relevant in so far as it is MAKING YOU MONEY, and the rest is garbage that is COSTING YOU MONEY). *




It's not actually a binary choice.  The reality is that in order to achieve the former, an element of the latter is necessary.  With traffic like this, the site needs to raise a LOT of money every month to keep going.

It's one of those sad but true facts of life.  Server fees come from my pocket.  If I win the lottery, rest assured that you'll never see an ad, a shop, a request for donations or anything remotely commercial on this site again!


----------



## JDRay (Jul 23, 2002)

Oh, yeah...

The idea about Morrus doing reviews?  Stellar!  I've appreciated the posts that go something like, "I heard this about [publisher], and followed up with them on it.  They say [publisher's comments]."  Usually, though, they end there.  If you (Morrus) were to go into more depth about what you think about the issue (if there is one), it would be very welcome by many.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 23, 2002)

JDRay said:
			
		

> *Oh, yeah...
> 
> The idea about Morrus doing reviews?  Stellar!  I've appreciated the posts that go something like, "I heard this about [publisher], and followed up with them on it.  They say [publisher's comments]."  Usually, though, they end there.  If you (Morrus) were to go into more depth about what you think about the issue (if there is one), it would be very welcome by many. *




Do you have an example?  I think I understand what you're getting at (and I think I agree) but an example would make it clearer.


----------



## William Ronald (Jul 23, 2002)

Morrus,

A good example of an editorial would be about why there are so many books with a certain theme published.  Or why a company is introducing a new product that is a departure for it.

In addition to reviews, maybe a few editorials would be welcome.  For example, maybe an editorial on the state of the hobby.  Or an editorial on why companies are going through changes.

Also, more interviews would be welcome.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 23, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *
> Also, more interviews would be welcome. *




We have Peter Adkison in the chat room on Wednesday!


----------



## William Ronald (Jul 23, 2002)

I definitely have to mark that one on my calendar.

Morrus, do not let all the comments and headaches running the site get you down.  The site is my favorite place on the Internet.

Also, here is an idea.  Maybe every so often, have a moderator or a member do a guest column on something that is important to them or the readers.  For example, Piratecat or Nemmerle could give advice on how to get published.  Or you might want to ask someone to do an opinion piece on an issue related to the hobby.  (As an example, the rise of fantasy and science fiction movies in the popular culture.  Or perhaps ask Michael Stackpole to do one on how to combat misconceptions about gamers.)

Hang in there, Morrus.  And thanks for the heads up.


----------



## Kershek (Jul 23, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> I was about to suggest something radical -- not metioning every little update to WotC's site.  I mean, map-a-week, who needs to be reminded of that every other day.  But actually this is probably a really important role that EN World plays, so maybe gather more input on this.
> *




Personally, I'm very glad that he posts all the updates to WotC's site so I don't have to go visit them.  Heck, I'd forget anyway.  I visit the things that interest me and ignore the rest.

For Morrus:
As far as the site redesign, I believe ENWorld is comprised of three separate main entities:

Community (forums, chat, reviews, etc.)
News & Resources (dailies, conversions, archive, etc.)
Hosted sites (including shopping)

The way you currently run it, news gets top billing and everything else gets thrown into the sidebars and deeper into the site (exception: community and other items that are sprinkled into the news).  By rights, you could run three separate web sites for the above and still have more content then many other places out there.  I agree with you that the site needs a redesign for better access to all the crunchy bits it has to offer.

Notice I put the reviews in with the community.  I think this is important, since there's a reviewing community that is separated from the rest of the site and they probably shouldn't be.  Combining the reviews forum with the main forum would be a good move.

Anyways, your main home page could be a hub for all three areas, but separated evenly and in such a way that the viewer feels they are skimming the top of three very large areas.  Make sure that the newest and most important info is at the top hub site to still make it enticing to visit instead of directly bookmarking things in your second level.  Separate the areas on the home page as you like, but do it in a way that's easiest for you to maintain and gives the viewer an uncomplicated screen that is at most two or three screenfulls. 

For instance, a third of the home page would be designated "News & Resources," where the most recent stories (only 1 day old) reside, yet it has a link at the top of its section pointing to the main "News & Resources" page with all the non-time-critical goodies.  From there, you can get at all the info needed to keep the 3-levels-deep paradigm.

Another third of the home page, the Communities section, could be a listing of the most recent forum posts and reviews.  Clicking on the link at the top of its section would bring you to the normal forums top folder integrated with the reviews site.

The third section of the home page would list brief updates to your hosted sites and shopping specials.  Clicking the link on the top of its section would give an index and description of all hosted sites and the shopping area.

The important part would be to have all three sections at least partially visible without scrolling down.

If this sounds like more work than you do currently, keep thinking about automation.  You could find a way to make your front page a reference of information on your 3 main pages inside so it's rather automatic.  First of all, the communities page should be auto-updating so you don't touch it at all.  The news items could be going into the news page which is referenced to it's one-third section on the enworld.org page.  The same could be done for the hosted sites section.


Hopefully, you like at least a couple of ideas from this thought.  My original intention was only to reply to Eric's post and suddenly I had this idea I wanted to share 

I haven't read past Eric's post, which at this time is only half-way through all the posts, so I apologize if my comments are outdated.

I would love to hear opinions, Morrus.


----------



## Kershek (Jul 23, 2002)

One other thing I would like to mention is that I would love to see a feature that allows comments for each news item (like voodooextreme.com, slashdot, etc.).  Ok, so that flies in the face of my above idea of splitting community from news.  phthth


----------



## Hawkmoon (Jul 23, 2002)

I just want to make one more comment....

In regard to D20 Reviews, I need to clarify what I mean by wanting a reliable source. I don't agree with a previous poster that all reviews should be from some industry icon or other such nonsense. By reliable source is that I would like the reviews to be screened, so that we don't get PR people posing as reviewers. Limiting the reviews to industry people would severly limit the number of reviews(look at how often monte reviews something on his site as an example, and he is generally good at keeping his site updated), and then what would the criteria be? What if I published a PDF supplement in my spare time? Would that be enought to make a review, or would I need a certain amount of sales?  That just turns who can review into a popularity/politcal endevor. You shouldn't have to be a successfull industry [insert title here] in order to review a product.

Hawkmoon


----------



## DPGDarrin (Jul 23, 2002)

Morrus,

I totally think you should write editorials. I'll make no secret of the fact that I hit your page at least once a day. The first time I hit it, I just want to read the news. Is there anything new or surprising from the industry? Is there anything cool on the fan sites? Has someone said something that strikes people as interesting, funny, annoying, etc.? One piece of news I really look forward to is Monte Cook's line of site. I mean here's a bright guy who's a heck of a designer, and a well known and opinionated individual spouting off whatever strikes him as important. One thing I really like about that column is how he doesn't always stick to the industry. He comments on society, the X-files, and whatever else he wants to. Well Morrus, this is your site and your forums, so start telling us how you view the industry and the rest of the world. Other than this site, how is the world according to Morrus? What would possess someone who appears to be wholly sane to take on an insane job like this site? 

Another thing is that when Eric announced that he was closing down his site, you jumped in to fill his shoes. Within weeks your old site became his old site. The color scheme changed, the amount of news changed, and the traffic went through the roof. I believe you did it for the community's sake, and maybe a bit to see where you could take it, and possibility even for the recognition. In the process I think you lost a bit of where you were going before this happened.

Evolution is a natural process, and I agree with you that it may be time for this site and the community to evolve. Evolve into what, I don't know.  

Let me tell you a bit about what I have done for WotC. Before you nod off, and think this is a moralistic WotC is wonderful tale, let me say something: it isn't that animal. This haslittle to do with WotC as everyone here knows it. This is a story about how you love something and dream about something, and then once you get there it turns into as much of a chore as anything else. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

My job has basically changed to a different focus now, but for a very long time my main focus was supporting the Star Wars fan club. If there's anyone reading this that I've spoken to on the telephone or emailed about whatever, Hi! AnywayI watched Star Wars for the first time when I was 5 years old, and since then I've always loved it. Then I got the job supporting the fan club and I began to see the business side of things, and how it was my job to keep the fans completely oblivious to that (not that they should really know what goes on behind the scenes anyway). 

For me Star Wars had been that mythical galaxy far, far, away, where I would travel to let my imagination wander. And then when I got the job supporting this beast at WotC, I was so thrilled. I was thrilled to be talking to other fans about these movies that I loved so much. I've read the books, collected action figures and comics, watched the movies about a hundred times each. I was the guy that always won at Star Wars Trivial Pursuit. In fact most people stopped trying after I trounced them the first couple of times.

And then one day it happened. The one thing that should never happen to any true fan of anything. The inevitable let down. It started innocently enough. I answered a phone call and got the expected questions about what was coming out that was new, and do we know where they can find certain action figures, and then after answering in all honesty that we hadn't seen these things yet, the person had the audacity to suggest that I wasn't a real fan of Star Wars. Me! Mr. I knew about the Zahn books a year before they were released. Me, Mr. seeing all 4 movies (at that time) on the opening night (except for possibly the frst because I can't remember a lot of details of when I was 5). Me, Mr. George Lucas is one of my favorite movie makers of all time! So I hid my irritation with this person, and finished up the call. 

And then it hit me like a five ton weight landing square on my head. As much as I loved Star Wars, I had never called a phone line to try to probe for details that the person on the other end wasn't willing to tell me. I had never gone to a convention just to get Jeremy Bullochs autograph on a vintage Empire Strikes Back poster. I hadn't even gone to the Star Wars Celebration I. So was I a fan? I had always believed I was, but in comparison to a lot of the people I was dealing with day in and day out, I was little more than an observer! My level of dedication was really amateurish compared to some of these people. 

In my time there, I've talked to people that literally spend thousands of dollars on merchandise on a monthly basis. Why? I guess that its harmless enough if their rent or mortgage is paid. Then there's the behavior of many of the fans, which should make most people cringe, but I won't even go into that. In time my enthusiasm for Star Wars began to wane. I took something that I had never been ashamed of before in my life, and internalized it. On the outside it was blase, but there was still part of me that I made sure was well hidden, that delighted in parts of this whole phenomenon - like the new movie. I just made sure that this part of me was never visible to the fans, because they wanted to get to the rumor monger and the spoiler in me. Some of them wanted to see me as their adversary because I couldn't give them the information/ product/ gratification/ recognition that they wanted. I just couldn't do it. What was even worse was that I sat back and watched exactly the same thing happen to the people that I worked with.

So what does this have to do with you? If you're lucky, absolutely nothing. But from what I'm getting, the industry demands are becoming tedious, and the job of handling other publishers isn't as personal and fun as you would like. The difference between your situation and mine is that you can choose to be the eternal fan. You can rumormonger. You can provide whatever spoilers that you have, and no one can really tell you not to do it. There is a certain innocence that you have as a fan, which you can't have as an industry insider. Enjoy that freedom! Do it in any manner you choose, and make sure that this fan base remains fun.

One last comment, and I mean this very sincerely. Another aspect of my job was dealing with role playing game fans via the online store. Before you start to wonder, Yes - that one! Anyway, it was always a pleasure dealing with role players. It is so much easier to explain the way things work to them, and I found them to be downright pleasant, reasonable, and intelligent to talk to. Yes, I prefer that community, but as a publisher myself, I won't even go into when I started gaming, how large my bookshelf(s) of games are, or partake in any other measurement of fandom. Lets just say that I was around when the 1st edition books were still coming out and leave it at that. Morrus, Enworld is your world, so I recommend limiting yourself only by your imagination. And one last time, have fun!


----------



## Morrus (Jul 23, 2002)

Darrin, that was one of the coolest things I've ever heard anyone say.  Bravo!

You should write a column, dammit, not me!


----------



## Swiftbrook (Jul 23, 2002)

I have three ideas for EN World, in no particular order.

1) Keep the name. 

2) Everything that you have in the left column on your main page place as drop down menus at the top of every page.  So you would have a menu item called "Community" with Messageboards, etc. under it.

3) Drop your store.  Your store is a disservice to the community.  People who want discounted stuff are going to go else where.  People who want full service are going to go else where.  But my big beef is that it taints your news and information.  Case in point:  I didn't see any tidbits, links or news items about Buy.com's ridiculusly low price on Epic Level Handbook.  Not sharring this info was/is a disservice.

-Swiftbrook


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 23, 2002)

Swiftbrook said:
			
		

> *Your store is a disservice to the community.  *




Main Entry: over·state 
Pronunciation: -'stAt
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1803
: to state in too strong terms : EXAGGERATE
- over·state·ment  /-m&nt/ noun 

Seriously, though, a little annecdote for you.  Any time I pointed out some ridiculously low price on a product and linked people to it, I inevitably got e-mails from people saying what a disservice I'd done to local gaming shops.  

Eh, whatever.  

Russ's shop is for people who were going to buy online anyway AND want some of that money to go to Russ for the website.  No one's twisting anyone's arm.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Jul 23, 2002)

Irrelevant, Colonel Hardisson.  The Oscars are not named after the organization handing out the awards.  Now consider what would happen if the ESPies were given out by Sports Illustrated.  That would be bad.

Other than that, I think Eric needs to face up to the monster he created that he no longer has control over.



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Even with a name change for the site, the name of the awards wouldn't have to change. The ENnies has its own name recognition by now, I think, and I doubt anyone would get all confused about why they have that name. Take the Oscars for example - the name has nothing to do with the organization giving out the awards. *


----------



## ashockney (Jul 23, 2002)

*Followup...*

Hey Morrus!  

Thanks for responding to my post, this is a great thread.  If you use any of the ideas posted here, the site will evolve into something I'm excited to see!  

You responded that you must MAKE MONEY to maintain (from your pocket) the costs of being the PREMIERE fan site on the web.  I've understand and respect the costs involved (both maintenance and personnell) that require you to raise funds to support this public service.  All of my recommendations would still stand as I made them, however.  There is a big difference betweeen raising money to cover costs, and being the most PROFITABLE community (ie, making the most money for the least time/$$ spent).   There are MANY, MANY ways to raise money to cover your costs.  Auctions, fund drives, contests, donations (especially from the companies you support, you COULD accept their money if you didn't know from whom it came, or in what amount, and there are ways of making that happen).  Many of these methods would help to defer costs (especially the cost of YOUR TIME).  Check with other not-for-profit (NFP) businesses, websites, or books for more ideas on creative ways to do this.  If you want to MAKE MONEY, all of this changes in my opinion, including your relationship with the publishers.  I'm definitely not getting the idea that this is what you've set out to do.

In response to the post that questioned the sanity of my comments about using only industry professionals to conduct formal reviews, I encourage you to read Monte's excellent Line of Sight where he goes into detail about why one must be skeptical of reading reviews from non-professionals.  

I don't know how much of this is from Monte, but here's why it's relevant to me:  reviewers that aren't industry professionals weren't around during the mechanical development and statistical modeling, and don't have access to the tools, marketing, or playtest feedback that drove the decisions for 3rd Ed; they don't understand the business implications of certain decisions; and, finally they don't have the experience to recognize a particularly creative or innovative rule, encounter, scenario, creature, or spell because they have very limited experience doing it themselves. 

Good luck with your re-org and your re-launch Morrus.  Bottom line, we're all behind you 110%, regardless of what changes you make.


----------



## JadeLyon (Jul 23, 2002)

It is fairly rare that I really want to weigh in on a discussion like this.  It always seems like someone has already said what I want to say, and my time is valuable, so I just don't bother.

I really want you to know, Morrus, that since the inception of the World Wide Web, I have never frequented a site as much I frequent ENWorld, and Eric's site before.  I've played D&D since I was 9, and its one of the few things I'm willing to devote my time to.

That said, I just want to say what I use ENWorld for.  And what I love to see.

1.  The coolest news is when someone in an industry takes time to address the ENWorld patrons--directly.  I feel like we, as a community, have power.  They know everyone who loves d20 comes here, and they should feel like they need to address us directly, not as some press release.

2.  As a DM, I love your Electronic Aids section.  I'm always looking for that "kickass" app that makes my job easier, so I appreciate it when I hear about a new update to a product, or a new one thats out.  I'm passionate about giving a quality session to my players, and ENWorld has made me a better DM.  Its opened up resources for me, highlighted the ones that mattered, so that I can have a virtual buffet of cool stuff.  All a click away.  Without you, Morrus, I'd have to spend countless hours searching, searching, searching.  

3.  The Forums.  I don't post much.  Like I said, most of what I have to say has already been said by someone else.  What I'd like to see is an expansion here.  I love it when you bring a cool thread to the front page.  Again, I don't have a lot of time, so I enjoy being able to click on a link from the front page and go straight to a good, juicy thread.  -- In addition, I'd like to say that if you could perhaps get a forum just for posting requests for hooking up gamers... maybe break it down by states and major cities.  I bet there are 10,000 people in my area that'd love to find a few more people to play with  (Seattle area).

So... however you want to arrange it, whatever you want to do, just do whatever it takes to keep this place around.

One more thing, on the name change.  I know ya said not to focus on that, and I'm not.  Just want to say, I like ENWorld for the nostalgia just like a lot of people.  Its cool to know I was part of Eric Noah's community, and I was around when everything merged, and I was part of that amazing thing that happened when we all started to count the days, hours, and minutes 'til 3E his the shelves.

-josh (a.k.a Josef the Cat, a.k.a Jade Lyon)


----------



## JDRay (Jul 23, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Do you have an example?  I think I understand what you're getting at (and I think I agree) but an example would make it clearer. *




Okay, this is sort of a bad example, but, from the 24th of May:



> Quiklink have posted a preview of d20 Traveller (T20) - the Vargr alien race. Quiklink say that they will be posting new preview material at least once per week up until the release of T20. Also, scooper Hunter reports that "The main T20 book will be nothing but the rules system, no setting information. The Gateway Setting material will follow immediately after the core book."




Here you have a synergy of information from Quicklink (publisher) and Hunter (scooper).  Now, if you could add to this your analysis of what these two data elements mean, you'd have the start of an editorial of some sort.

Like I said, this is something of a bad example, but I think you can get my drift from here.


----------



## Eosin the Red (Jul 23, 2002)

Morrus,

Keep the name, many of us who have hung out here forever like it. Change causes stress. Look at how many comments about "I don't like where we are headed" occured after the Eric to Morrus switch. We don't see those anymore - they were a symptom of changed forced onto a large community.

Colors - I like them but I like others.

Layout - yup, it needs fixing. When I sent you the e-mail the other day I had to look for 30 min to find all of the links to my site.

I saw some stuff last night on inline frames, it migh help with the clutter. One of the web page guru may be able to help you out. I cant find a link to the site.

Fly-out menus (I hate them) may be the way to go.

Attiude - I like what you did with the KoK review a few months ago. It was much more personal.

Editorials - These sound really spiffy. Remember that you can have guest editorials. You have allot on you plate.

You might consider some helpers. Basically add yet another e-mail address. This one for scoops/front page info only! Then on some designated days other folks can check the e-mail and post the scoops for you. I know you have enough people around that you can trust not to monkey with stuff. That would free up some of your time and allow you to work on things you like.

Start the "COOL COMMUNITY NEWS" Do profiles on some story hours, talk to webmasters of other sites, several of us are having kids soon - make a "WHO IS MAKING NEW GAMERS" page. This gets you back to the community. 

Have a celeberity pick of the week - "Monte Cook of MHP is really looking foward to the new Dinotopia d20 rules." Just a blurp - nothing more. Enough to catch peoples attention and have them investigate a product they may not have thought about. 

These aren't things to create more work for you - while you may not feel like it, this sounds like burnout to me - these are things that might get you jazzed and into a FAN mode. 

Some of the ideas prior to my post are really good -

The whole professional reviewer thing is not. Not many people who are professional d20 publishers were involved in the decisions used to "certify" their credentials. Orcus was not sitting at that table, but we all know he is a professional.  PKitty probably had as much input as anyone not working for WotC, but he just recently attained freelancer status. That neither gives more or less weight to their opinions. Your reviews do a stellar job - I don't always agree with them but I understand their opinions. If you wanted to have reviews by Nitchick - I would love that. Most other professionals need to worry about bridges and future employment.

Always keep in mind that you have a stellar list of people you can bank on. Many will say they will step forward that will not, but time and time again I have seen ENworlders step up to the plate when it counted.


----------



## Hawkmoon (Jul 23, 2002)

Thats like saying only filmmakers can criticize other filmmakers. You can't tell me you have never told a friend that a movie sucked(either because of acting, music, direction etc), and they shouldn't see it. By your reasoning, you can never tell anyone what you thought of any movie or any product, unless you are a professional, because, well, your opinion doesn't count.

There is no problem with someone reviewing any product as long as they provide reasons why they felt a product was either usefull or useless. Now if someone writes a review saying just saying "This product sucked" and didn't provide reasons then that is another matter.

Basicly you are saying that any DM or player with X years experience can not decide for themselves what they find usefull and impart that knowledge to others. That is ludicicrous. Now if in a review all you are interested in is game balance, and are these mechanics sound, then yes, a professional designer may be able to offer insight that others can't. While mechanics are an important factor, the quality of the mechanics is only part of any product. The importance of said factor will vary from product to product; obviously depending on the aims of said product. What if the prestige classes in a product may be a bit over or underpowered, but their concepts are great, they have a great history layed out for them, and would that product be bad? That is total subjective. 

As for designers knowing why rule 'Y' was put in place, doesn't make the reason rule 'Y' exists a good reason for rule 'Y' to exist. There is nothing wrong with a non-designer challenging a rule, as long as they have reason to do so, and those reasons are explained. Thats part of the reason the D20 licsence is really neat, because the system can change. I know I have disagreed with Monte in the quality/usefullness of a product, and in the instance he laid out why he thought the way he did. I could see his points, and agreed with him for the most part, but I disagreed on how much those points detracted from the product.

Are you saying you don't think Monte listens to his customers when they let him know what they did/didn't like about his products, and that he doesn't change them within reason, to meet those expectations/suggestions, just because his customers may not be industry professionals? I think not.

Hell I could be wrong heh. 

Anyway I'm going to leave it at this, because this isn't what this discussion is about. Heh.


Hawkmoon


----------



## XCorvis (Jul 24, 2002)

Morrus, check out Ars Technica. It's a tech site, but the stories are heavily commented by the people who post them. Is this the kind of stuff you're looking to do?


----------



## Emiricol (Jul 24, 2002)

"rebranding" in this case (as in most cases) would be a mistake.  Everyone knows ENWorld by name.  Also, I think you should keep the news.  Yours is the single best site by far for keeping the community up to date.  The gaming community would come out poorer for it if you give this up.

One idea would be to a) streamline ENWorld, then b) launch a closely affiliated but separate spin-off site for  the community stuff you want to focus more on


----------



## Pelosan Emperor (Jul 24, 2002)

With regard to the site's name, my vote would be to keep EN World.  I agree with everyone who made the "name recognition" argument... and they all said it better that I would, so I'll shut up about that issue.

With regard to the site navigation issue:

Like several other folks who visit your site, I do web development professionally... for what ever that's worth    At any rate, it has been my experience that Frames are sometimes more trouble than they are worth.  If you end up using a complex frameset, site maintenance can become a whole new kind of headache.  I tend to prefer the so-called "fly-out" menus (also known as dynamic menus).  I found one some time ago that is (in my opinion) the best!  It's called the Ultimate Dropdown Menu.

http://www.brothercake.com/dropdown/index.html

The menu system is highly customizable, and VERY cross-browser compatible.  There is ample documentation and customization information on Brothercake's site.

The creator allows it to be used for free by personal and non-profit sites.  Commercial sites are asked to pay a $40.00 licensing fee.

(FYI, I am not associated with this site in any way -- other than being a satisfied customer!)

I agree with several of the others that the current main page is too busy.  Dropping the right column would help quite a bit.  Consolidating the main navigation links into 5 - 7 primary headings would also help.

I strongly agree that off-site links should open their own window.  80% - 90% of the time, I end up 'Back'ing up to get back to EN World.

The Message Boards are where I spend most of my time on the site. (lurking  )  I would ask that you keep this as one of the links in your main navigation element.

Well, back to lurking.

PE


----------



## thatdarncat (Jul 24, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *Also, more interviews would be welcome. *




Got someone you want to see interviewed?

Tell me about it and I'll do my best to get them booked 

thatdarncat@psionics.net



> _Originally posted by William Ronald _
> *We have Peter Adkison in the chat room on Wednesday!  *




And Mystic Eye/THG the week after... 
And EGG on September 4th... 

And lots of other people I can't go look up right now 

www.d20reviews.com/chat.htm


----------



## rpghost (Jul 24, 2002)

Pelosan Emperor said:
			
		

> *I strongly agree that off-site links should open their own window.  80% - 90% of the time, I end up 'Back'ing up to get back to EN World.*




Slightly off topic reply, but I'm surprised at how many people don't known this... When using IE just hold down the LEFT SHIFT key as you click a link and it will automatically open the link into a new window for you.

I never trust a site to program in target="_blank" (which will get you a new window), so I just get in the habit of always using Left-Shift-Click when I don't want to leave a site I'm still reading.

Hope that helps some of you. 

James
http://www.RPGHost.com

P.S. I never did make a statement about the name, but I too strongly believe that the name as is means something to those who have been around here long enough and it shouldn't be changed (Even though it doesn't mean crap to the new users).


----------



## Morrus (Jul 24, 2002)

Here's something I whipped up:

http://www.enworld.org/dropdown/

Needs a bit of work and rearranging, but you can get a general idea.  Let me know what you think.


----------



## William Ronald (Jul 24, 2002)

Morrus,

I like the look of the drop down page.  The page seems less congested than the current page.  Also, I like the current color scheme.

I realize it is a draft, but there was no link for community.  Possibly you could divide the links into community, news, and product information.  A drop down menu would be appropriate, and maybe a message board wrap up of hot topics on the main page. 

I also like the name.  Maybe you could make the name a link to a page that explains what the site is all about.  This would help new members.


----------



## Harlock (Jul 24, 2002)

Wow.  The page wasn't ten meters long.  I dunno if I prefer the links way up at the top like that or not, but I DO like the dropdown.  Maybe I'm just too used to going over to the left to click stuff.  Admittedly, I didn't dig too long, but will there be a permanent link for WotC releases?  It may be there, as I said I didn't dig too deep.  At any rate, I really like the drop down menu idea.  Very compact yet still completely usable.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 24, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *I realize it is a draft, but there was no link for community.  *




Yeah there is.  It's the very first one.  Top left of your screen.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 24, 2002)

Harlock said:
			
		

> * Admittedly, I didn't dig too long, but will there be a permanent link for WotC releases?  It may be there, as I said I didn't dig too deep.   *




Only insofar as there's the D20 Guide, and you can look up WotC.  I'm responding to the views expressed that WotC should be treated just like any other publisher - but if you think differently, speak up!


----------



## Warchild (Jul 24, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *Here's something I whipped up:
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/dropdown/
> 
> Needs a bit of work and rearranging, but you can get a general idea.  Let me know what you think. *




That looks nice!
.....now if only we could get the red and gold colors on your computer to work...............


----------



## Morrus (Jul 24, 2002)

Red?  Ughhh!!!


----------



## Warchild (Jul 24, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *Red?  Ughhh!!! *




......Black and Gold?? 
Anything!! Throw me a friggin bone, here!! (i hope you got that reference or i'm in trouble!)
If only on the test site?? Pretty please?


----------



## CRG (Jul 24, 2002)

Menu is nifty...cuts down on extraneous stuff.

It would be nice if it was weighted so that the things a fan site would care about were somehow more to the front (which I think is the kind of thing you're looking for).  Things like reviews, community, hosted sites, resources, etc.  

Also on the main page, I think keeping one day of news out there is a good thing, but maybe with links to the news from "today-x days" right out front.  I hate to admit it, I don't check every day.  I don't need to see 6 days of news at once...but to be able to view one day and then quickly link to an archive that showed me yesterday or the past few days would be niftiness.


----------



## William Ronald (Jul 24, 2002)

Morrus,

I somehow missed the menu on the top at the first look.  The menu helps. 

It looks a lot more manageable to me.  I think this could well be the way to go.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 24, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *Morrus,
> 
> I somehow missed the menu on the top at the first look.  The menu helps.
> *




The menu was all I was demonstrating.


----------



## Usurper (Jul 24, 2002)

Wow, I read through 10 pages to make sure I didn't repeat myself when I went to recommend Brothercake's dropdown menu, and you went ahead and got it already.  Excellent script.  Works on everything. 

It does seem to clip behind the ad when the ad uses an animated gif in mozilla though.  Does your ad script set a z-index on the ad or something?  At any rate, you can also configure that menu to be stacked vertically.  Putting it in the left column would keep it from conflicting with the ads.

My main organizational suggestion would be to go into "guides" and "resources" and "black pages" and whatnot and take all the OGC/free stuff and put it in one place.  I use your site for news, but rarely check the freebies because they're kind of buried.  Heck, the black pages really need to go in favor of a category that tells me exactly what it is.


----------



## Mistwell (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re-design of Board*

It blows.

I would suggest you look at some of the more well-known fan-based boards. For example, check out www.comicbookresources.com .


----------



## Morrus (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Re-design of Board*



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> *
> I would suggest you look at some of the more well-known fan-based boards. For example, check out www.comicbookresources.com . *




I find that particular layout cold and impersonal.  It's technically very good, though.


----------



## Khorod (Jul 24, 2002)

I don't like most top-menu-bars, most are very uncooperative.  This one seems ok.  But I don't like sites whose links are all buried at the top of the page- I find it requires more focused attention to navigate menus, and I particularly lose track of the page when I looked up instead of left.  Its enough of a bias that it has slowed my exploration of rpg host sites- the top bar is irritating, and their is no other access to its contents.

I suggest some of the key links- say to those pages visited most often, also be placed on the left side of the screen- messageboards, reviews, resources...  like, 8 links or less.


----------



## the Jester (Jul 24, 2002)

I like it... it's clean, and the main problem right now is that the site is cluttered (as I view it, anyway; no real problem with it at all!)  

Sorry Mistwell, the site you linked to blows in my opinion.    It's BORING, and it looks just like everything else out there.


----------



## tburdett (Jul 24, 2002)

*I like it.*

I like it.  It cuts down on clutter.  It also retains just enough of the old EN World to satisfy my sense of nostalgia.


----------



## Aaron L (Jul 24, 2002)

I like it.  As long as it's not glaringly ugly I'll like it, I'm not picky


----------



## Ricochet (Jul 24, 2002)

It's a definite improvement, although the drop-down needs to somehow be more visible to the eye..

Also, go back to the old orange-isch colors, that would be awesome... Maybe you could make some kind of option for users to choose different color schemes


----------



## Duncan Haldane (Jul 24, 2002)

*First Draft*

Hi Morrus,

I like your draft.  I believe 100% that drop down menus is the way to go.  

I have a 21" monitor, so the way I see the site (both current and draft) may be different to most.  But when I looked at the menus above the ad block, and they opened up into  the ad blocks space, they were *behind* the block.

I would recommend a minor change to fix this (if it can be done - I'm not a web guru):
First line should be the site logo and the ad.
The menu should be *under* that.

IMO this would be helpful.  I had to wait a while for the menu to load (damn 56k), and didn't notice it at first (I realise someone else also didn't see it).  It would also put the menu closer to the rest of the writing, thus making it more part of the site.  Then we can just ignore the ad, like I do on most sites ;-)

Also, one other suggestion - can you do sub menus?  For me it would be great if I could go to community, move the mouse over "Message boards" and then select the message board I want, rather than having to click on the message boards link, then wait for the list of forums to load, then select the forum I want.  A submenu would save me loading that list of forums each time.

Thanks, and good luck!

Duncan


----------



## Usurper (Jul 24, 2002)

Yeah, under the title would be good.  You should probably also put standard html links to the topmost category's pages underneath the dropdown menu for those who don't have jscript enabled.  You should be able to get the menu to cover up the links as soon as it loads.


----------



## fimp (Jul 24, 2002)

I think the EN World needs some new colors. Allthough, i dont know which it should be


----------



## jujutsunerd (Jul 24, 2002)

*Two concerns*

One is that it doesn't seem lynx-friendly at all. While this in itself is probably not a major concern to you (even if it is to me ;-) how lynx-friendly a page is is a pretty good indicator on how well it works for disabled users.

The second is that I don't like drop-down menues.

Of course, both of these problems can be solved by a good site-map page.

/Jonas


----------



## Siobharek (Jul 24, 2002)

I think it looks extremely nice, Morrus. Good work! Only thing is that on my Mac running IE5.0, teh drop down menus disappeared behind the banner ad.

Is that a common occurrence, or is it just me...?


----------



## Blacksad (Jul 24, 2002)

*I do not like it*

I do not think that WotC should be considered like any other publisher, and think that their upcoming release should be on the page (with direct link to preorder them from the ENstore).

The ENstores basicaly get two links on at the top, and one at the left, it feels like too much. The left coulum take one quarter of the screen on a 800*600, and it gives an asymmetrical look to the site (I miss something on the right side or nothing on the left side), plus it looks like an emphasing of ENstore presence and give me some kind of beggar impression, not warm and friendly.

Somehow, the date doesn't show on a single line, and the page reload itself with each resizing of the window.

Considering the emphasize on review, a direct link toward the d20 guide might be a god thing.

Perhaps the "this site is owned by Morrus" should be a bit more toward the top, and you could also put a "send me/to ENworld your d20 scoop" or something like that, to provide the community feeling.

Have you thought of putting the menu curently at the top to the left? curently it looks like WotC website in its navigation, I don't know which one I'll prefer, I'll probably need to see both.

I had a hard time figuring why it seemed strange: you should put the "EN World - Morrus' D20 System News & Reviews Site " in the same gray backround that the "latest press release" is, curently the ad look like an annoying gif lost in the black page (try this at home: put a cookie in a small plate and one in a big plate, the one in the small plate looks better doesn't it?)

Now the good side: you should have done the link toward the d20 publisher forum for a long time, it's great and allow to read all PR, though you might want to test a split of the d20 publisher forum: one for press release and one to discuus with publisher, I don't think it would be usefull, but the direct link toward the d20 publisher forum might provoke an increase in traffic and customer post, that might hide on the second page some one week old PR.


----------



## Cyronax (Jul 24, 2002)

This proposed layout was okay I suppose. Aesthetically speaking, I think that it would look a lot better if you kept the ENie Award Icon in the upper left part of the page (like you do for the real board). It just looks better.

Also the menu that graces the right side of the page would look better if it was on the left IMO.

But its your baby,
C.I.D.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: I do not like it*



			
				Blacksad said:
			
		

> *Have you thought of putting the menu curently at the top to the left? curently it looks like WotC website in its navigation, I don't know which one I'll prefer, I'll probably need to see both. *




OK, I've tried that here:

http://www.enworld.org/dropdown2/


----------



## Hand of Evil (Jul 24, 2002)

Overall it looks nice.  I know people don't like frames but if you placed the buttons in a frame the would stay on the top of the page (or the side if you put them there) as you scroll the page.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 24, 2002)

I like the layout.  I don't know if its the browser (IE5) on this computer or not, but the drop-downs appeared behind the banner, and I couldn't read the choices.


----------



## GralTok (Jul 24, 2002)

Put the collumn from the right to the left.... I just think that starting text directly from the left of the screen is a mistake of positionement ..(( Sorry I do not know the english term for what I exactly want to say.. as I study in french... ))


----------



## GralTok (Jul 24, 2002)

Just seen yous second take on redesign...

The button to the top is better me think ... and in a frame would be nice... If you put as no one really see it... I mean no need to show it is .. right?


----------



## machine (Jul 24, 2002)

Morrus,

Looks great.  Less clutter is always a good thing.

Keep it.  

machine.


----------



## Tetsubo (Jul 24, 2002)

I like it. Looks cleaner. Nice work.


----------



## Swiftbrook (Jul 24, 2002)

I like the menu on the sample site.

Font seems to be bigger, that's good.  Try not to reduce the font size on long quotes (my old eyes).  Try changing the color, boxing it off, or something else.

Keep up the great work!

-Swiftbrook


----------



## ShawnLStroud (Jul 24, 2002)

*New Style:  Gooooood*

Morrus;

Just thought I'd chime in with the positive comments on the first proposed re-design.  Nice work.  I like the idea of collecting most of the navigational apparatus into the strip across the top.  

I have to say that if you do decide to change the color scheme, please consider using colors that are as contrasty as the white & yellow on black.


----------



## Afton Radav (Jul 24, 2002)

I do not like the drop down menus. I like to see the sub-categories visible under the main heading so I can go straight to the reviews/publisher list/etc. I want. This also lets me see what else the site has to offer - If I don't see many links, I assume there is not much content, and this place has plenty to offer. Visible sub-categories are very good for folks who are new to the site.

Perhaps you can keep the headings and visible sub-categories on the left, but remove the new releases from the right and make them a sub-category or a text-link list on the left.


----------



## Mucknuggle (Jul 24, 2002)

*New Layout...Ugh*

Well Morrus, I have to say that I like the menu at the top, but everything under that stinks.

Maybe you should have two columns, one on each side to display important info, sort of what its like now, but without the clutter.

Try checking out www.gamespot.com and www.gamefaqs.com .
The later has a nice simple layout, whereas gamespot is probably a little complex.


----------



## Selganor (Jul 24, 2002)

The Dropdown menu from the first version is a real bother to my system, it slows down noticably and to see the ad impose itself over the text as I scroll down is a really bothersome sight.

The second version dropdown2 looks quite nice, but the whole left hand menu vanishes and you can't get into any subcategories...

Can this be changed somehow ?


----------



## Davelozzi (Jul 24, 2002)

I think it looks good and would be a great option as long as you can clear up the menus behind the ad banner issue, as others have mentioned.


----------



## Jeremy (Jul 24, 2002)

Just dropping my 2 cents in..

It looks ok but it feels like it's missing something.  Maybe on the left or maybe just some borders or something.  I don't know.  But it's definately a good start.


----------



## paqman (Jul 24, 2002)

*Excelent!*

Hi Morrus,

Excelent, the drop down menu is a must, it organizes everything and is much easier to  use than a buch of menus to the left and right.

About comic site, I  liked only one thing from that site. The news are writen in 2 columns at the place of a single one as you do. You see, when someone reads texts, it is always easier and more inviting to read if the columns are more narow. And it would make changes to the way the site look.

Ok, with my next comment I expect to be flamed but here goes : Lose the black background, get back to the yelllow one you had before, that was more easier on the eye. *OR*  .....

...Thinking about it....

IF it is possible, and IF you have access to a couple of web guys that could help you, I would (But I work 70 hours a week), make themes!! Just 2 or 3, One could be dark as it i right now, one could be the old yellow one and an other one to your liking... What do you think? You keep all the items positionned at the same place but the color patter could be changed.

My suggestions


----------



## Henry (Jul 24, 2002)

(Eric Cartman Voice)
Shweeet.

Kewl Website, Kyle... er, Stan... er, Morrus!
(Eric Cartman Voice Off)


I particularly liked the menus. Talk about a good-looking page!

Only one thing - how do you feel about taking the gray block on the right (where you put the upcoming products) and placing it on the left?

Otherwise, I love the look, and feel you are headed in the right direction.


----------



## nobodez (Jul 24, 2002)

*Great!*

Except for teh fact that the ad was above the menue on my computer. I t might jsut be becasue I'm a mac user, but you might want to look into that.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Jul 24, 2002)

I like it for the most part, it seems a lot less cramped.  I would suggest moving that bar on the right to the left side though.


----------



## shadoe (Jul 24, 2002)

I have to say that I like the one with the menu on top. I just like having more horizontal space. Though I also think that the information on the right hand column should be on the left side of the page.


----------



## Citizen Mane (Jul 24, 2002)

shadoe said:
			
		

> *I have to say that I like the one with the menu on top. I just like having more horizontal space. Though I also think that the information on the right hand column should be on the left side of the page. *




I'll second this.  All in all, I like the drop down menus.  It's very clean.  

Best,
tKL


----------



## Blacksad (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: I do not like it*



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> OK, I've tried that here:
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/dropdown2/ *




Thanks!

I prefer this one

edit: oops! you have changed the first one too. Well, I still prefer the second choice, though you might want to put something under the menu on the left side (perhaps the WotC release, or an editorial in small font, or current contest, I don't know) to fill it a bit.

But I'll be fine with both (if the "Tuesday the 23rd of July" could appear on only one line (I'm nitpicking)


----------



## Alaska Roberts (Jul 24, 2002)

I like the drop down menus on the left side, and I agree I think all the information on the right side should be on the left below the drop downs, makes for a cleaner page.

Alaska


----------



## Zaukrie (Jul 24, 2002)

Morrus, I work with some web designers every day.  The menu needs to be on the left to be most effective in getting people to see it and use it, at least that's what they tell me.  Also, they tell me content should never start way over on the left, people just aren't used to it.

The version with the menu on the left is much nicer in my personal opinion, and easier to use.

They also strongly suggest not putting navigation on the right, but that news or "blurbs" work well.  For some reason, putting navigation all around the content is confusing to most web users.

All that said, I don't have any major issues with the site as it is.


----------



## ashockney (Jul 24, 2002)

*LOVE IT!*

Looks great Morrus.  I love everything I see (second version, menu on the left).  

I definitely think upcoming d20 products guide deserves it's own link, that is a SWEET page.

I think the CBR is too busy, wouldn't recommend anything from it.

I also agree that the news seems a little more challenging to read because of the wider columns.  Could just be me though?

Great job.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 24, 2002)

I like both versions.

I'll note a small techical problem with dropdown2:  If you run your mouse pointer slowly along the dropdown menu list from top to bottom, you'd expect each menu to show up in succession, but that's not what happens.  

The menu get "jammed" - until your pointer drops below the level of the currently displayed drop-down choices, it won't show another menu.  That means a lot of mouse-wagging to switch from one drop-down to another.

As you run the pointer up, this isn't an issue, as the pointer is always above the dropdown menu.

I hope that made sense.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Jul 24, 2002)

I think it does look better, but I do think a few tweaks would help. I will agree with others the right side links need to move to the left, It just did not read quite right (so to speak). The other suggestion I would trow out is too move the top links to just under the title and ad banner. I think this helps define the page better. For an example of what I am talking about look at www.cdw.com Well thats my 2cp.


----------



## Undead Pete (Jul 24, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *Morrus,
> 
> I somehow missed the menu on the top at the first look.  The menu helps.
> 
> It looks a lot more manageable to me.  I think this could well be the way to go. *




I agree....  the drop down menu is nice, but I did miss it at first as well.  I think it needs to be a bit more prominent for us oblivious folks


----------



## Pelosan Emperor (Jul 24, 2002)

First things first: *I think you're doing a GREAT job!* 



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> *I'll note a small techical problem with dropdown2:  If you run your mouse pointer slowly along the dropdown menu list from top to bottom, you'd expect each menu to show up in succession, but that's not what happens.
> 
> The menu get "jammed" - until your pointer drops below the level of the currently displayed drop-down choices, it won't show another menu.  That means a lot of mouse-wagging to switch from one drop-down to another.
> 
> As you run the pointer up, this isn't an issue, as the pointer is always above the dropdown menu.*




I noticed this problem on dropdown2 as well.  I haven't used the "vertical" arrangement yet, but the examples on http://www.brothercake.com don't seen to have this problem.

Perhaps it has to do with the second-level menu appearing "below" the parent button.  Maybe if the "child" menu appears immediately to the right of the parent, it won't have this effect.

If you can solve this issue, I would vote for the dropdown2 configuration... with one suggestion:  it might look better if you move the right column contents under the navigation links on the left.

If you go with the horizontal menu configuration, I would suggest that you move the menu under the site logo and addvertisement.  That should keep the "layering" issue to a minimum.

I don't remember who, but someone else mentioned the non-JavaScript browsers having problems with this menu system.  One solution to this problem is to use images in a table as the "parent" links, then set the color and text properties of the "parent" menu to be transparent.  Brothercake has a tutorial on his site.

One last comment:  the direct quotes are a bit too small to read easily, particularly the longer ones.  I think indenting the quotes and changing the font color is sufficient to set them off from the surrounding text.

PE


----------



## Agnostic Paladin (Jul 24, 2002)

*Good points, bad points*

While I don't like such a wide text area, its probably better for people who are running at less than 1280, so I'm fine with dropping to a single navbar.

The colour scheme seems the same to me, or close enough to not be noticable. Which is fine, because I really like the current colours, including the barely visible 3e logo.

The ad banner's kind of in an odd spot, not centered and not right justified. (It's like that on the current page too, but its not as noticable since its at the very top.

The header box (with the date in it) should either run the entire width of the text, or sort of fade into the background.

And I really like the top navbar. Except that the menus for the Ennies and Misc drop down behind the banner. Also, are they built with scripts or xml? If they're XML, it'd be cool to have them stay at the top of the screen instead of scrolling up. (Maybe that's possible with whatever sort of scripting is being used. I don't know scpripts.)


----------



## NeuroZombie (Jul 24, 2002)

I agree with Brown Jenkin.  I like the top nav idea, but it may be more advantageous to put it under the banner and logo.  You may also want to find another script that does the same thing, however.  That script seems to bog down and not load as cleanly as it should.  It kinda skips on both my home computer (xp) and the win 2000 computers at school. 

As for the banner/navbar issue, the reason that the navbar is being hidden by the banner is probably because you put the banner in an iframe.  If it was just a part of the regular html, I don't believe it would do that.  Of course, using the iframe makes placement a lot easier, so there is a caveat.

Also, as mentioned by Zaukrie, placing nav items on the left CAN (but not always, depends on how it is done) cause confusion and is usually not reccomended.


----------



## dema (Jul 24, 2002)

DROP DOWN, DROP DOWN.  Yeah I like the drop down. But as for the top or left positioni don't know yet.  I don't like the text starting at the left. Put something there like the store thing or something else. Ohh and I'm sure you can fit where the drop down menu thing pops into, it's not aligned nice.  I use FireWorks for that sort of stuff, and I know moving things around shouldn't be hard.

I like the drop down, but also, for the submenus within the drop down list, put an arrow if a section like the Natural 20 Press has another option like the Asgard mag link.

My at a glance thoughts.

-dem


----------



## Swiftbrook (Jul 24, 2002)

Idea:
Use the vertical menu system across the top BUT
place the ENWorld logo above it on the left and teh D20 logo above it on the right.

-Swiftbrook


----------



## Mystic Eye (Jul 24, 2002)

Hey Russ. I like it and I know it is a test but I think it is now tooo dry and those menus seem to be working but I worry about the stability. I have seen other sites with these menu's and they often times are clunky.

If I may suggest to get in touch with Chris at Web studios one. He may be able to help you and really wants to be a part of the gaming community even though they are a main stream web design outfit.

I am, hopefully, going to be using them to redesign the MEG/TG site after the con period is over.

http://www.webstudio-1.com


----------



## Conaill (Jul 24, 2002)

*YUCK!*

I'm sorry, but I really dislike drop-down menus. Actually, I hate everything that requires javascript! 

Javascript is so riddled with security holes and gives such a poor tradeoff between added utility and annoyance (e.g. drop-down menus vs. having to deal with pop-ups) that I simply leave it turned off. If you want me to stop looking at ENWorld past the front page and bulletin boards, by all means, go ahead and use the drop-down menus. 

At the very least you would need to provide an alternative way to navigate your site. That means implementing (and updating) all the navigation TWICE, so more work for you.

That being said... I *did* turn on javascript to check out the drop-down menus, and I have to say they look rather bad on my machine (Linux box using Netscape). In both versions "D20 System" is split over two lines, making it fail to line up with the other menus. In the menu-on-top version, the highlighting when you move over the top menu items is offset from the menu item, overlapping it to the left and slightly up. In both version, the highlighting for sub-menus (especially with multi-line entries) is also off significantly. There errors seem to happen even on brothercake's own website.

For example: when I select "Hosted" on the menu-on-top page, a highlighted "Hosted" is displayed, overlapping almost half of the "Archive" menu item to the left of it. Then when I go down to "Crooked Staff Productions", the highlighting overlaps with the second line of the previous item (where it says "Design" in "Claudio Pozas Art & Design"). When I move to "Natural 20 Press", the submenu for "Asgard" comes up to the right of "Crooked Staff Productions", and I have to move my cursor quickly up and right to be able to "catch" that submenu before it disappears. Moving even further down, when my cursor is over "Malls & Morons", a highlighted "Malls & Morons" is displayed, partially overlapping the entry for "Dusk" several entries up! (I'll post some screenshots if people are interested.)

I have seen dropdown menu systems that worked fine under my configuration, but this is *definitely* not one of them!

OK, enough bitching...  time for some constructive suggestions. I think the best single thing you could do for the front page is to do away with the three column format. I was really struck by how much legible everything became on the menu-on-top page, simply because you got rid of that left hand column. Ignore the menus for a second, and compare the original page (wide left column) with the menu-on-left page (narrower left column with the menus) and the menu-on-top page (no left column). In the first one, I typically have to scroll down 2-3 pages just to read one day's news. The latter shows me almost an entire days' news on the very first page.

I would suggest (again) you do away with the entire rightmost column. Then we can restructure the current menus on the left a bit and presto: huge improvement in usability and looks.


----------



## Miho (Jul 24, 2002)

Ok, I'm very new to the EN World site so I'm really unfamiliar with the old layout. I also haven't read the ton of posts before this so I may repeat points but here's my thoughts on the front page:

1. I like the drop down menus across the top - it makes areas much easier to find straight away. (However if this is where it is going to be then you could do with a "top of page" link at the bottom of the page to travel back to it quickly after reading down the other information.)

2. I don't like the text reaching so far across the page. It makes it harder to read which ultimately could mean people won't read it - this would mean a waste of your time in putting all this hard work into it. Newspapers use narrow columns for a good reason, small blocks of text are easier on the eye. In this respect the old layout is better.

3. I think the links down the side are a good idea - but would be better on the left hand side, as this is where your text is justified against.

4. I'm not to keen on the current text background. This is probably a personal preference but behind large areas of text I prefer it to be a solid colour rather than any sort of picture/texture. Again it's because it makes it that tiny bit harder to read. If you really want to keep it I'd suggest changing the font you use over it to something a little bolder.

You obviously put a huge amount of time and effort into this site and that shows. For a first quck layout it has some good possibilities. I look forward to seeing what other ideas you have for the site!


----------



## The Kender (Jul 24, 2002)

I'm using a Windows computer at the moment, with the latest IE.  My concerne is that when I'm at home, I use Linux.  I don't think that Mozilla for Linux can use those.  I know that with a couple of sites I visit, they don't work.  And what about the people who use older versions of Netscape or IE?  Or the people that use Konquerer, Mozilla, or Linx.  I'm just giving you things to think about.  It wouldn't be as fancy, but you could use drop down menu's.  I've seen that done before.

At very least, could you make a site map?  It would really help.


----------



## rpghost (Jul 24, 2002)

Usurper said:
			
		

> *Yeah, under the title would be good.  You should probably also put standard html links to the topmost category's pages underneath the dropdown menu for those who don't have jscript enabled.  You should be able to get the menu to cover up the links as soon as it loads. *




If you put the menu under the logos it'll be even harder to find ... esp with the same color scheme. I do think that a seperate "best of" sort of links section could be on the right column or left (whichever colum you keep, but don't do two columns). 

James


----------



## XCorvis (Jul 24, 2002)

I like both of them, but the horizontal menu was much faster and the 2 sidebars kind of squish the page. Someone already suggested moving the right sidebar to the left.

The main thing I like about both of them is that there is a heck of a lot less clutter.

I'd like to know if the reduced html makes it easier to update the page now.

Keep it up, they're lookin' good.


----------



## XCorvis (Jul 24, 2002)

The Kender said:
			
		

> *I'm using a Windows computer at the moment, with the latest IE.  My concerne is that when I'm at home, I use Linux.  I don't think that Mozilla for Linux can use those.  I know that with a couple of sites I visit, they don't work.  And what about the people who use older versions of Netscape or IE?  Or the people that use Konquerer, Mozilla, or Linx.  I'm just giving you things to think about.  It wouldn't be as fancy, but you could use drop down menu's.  I've seen that done before.
> 
> At very least, could you make a site map?  It would really help. *



I'm using Mozilla 1.0 right now and it looks identical in both versions. 

Actually, it's loading slower in IE than it did in mozilla... Never mind, it's crashed IE 6.  

Anyway, it looks just fine in Mozilla 1.0.


----------



## rpghost (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: I do not like it*



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> OK, I've tried that here:
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/dropdown2/ *




Something is buggy with that menu system... when you get a sub-menu to show up, you have to slide your mouse to a menu option that is below the end of the sub menu just to get to see the other main menu options. Not sure if that made sense but run your mouse down the left menu slowly and you'll see some menus don't pop up.

If you look at http://www.RPGHost.com you'll se we use top and side menu pulldown/popups. The menu also stands out on the top from the rest of the site to make people notice it more.

James


----------



## GuardianLurker (Jul 24, 2002)

*Goodie!*

Morrus -

like the (updated) second version lots. Especially the "About the Site" link, which could prove very useful.

A few constructive comments :
1) I suggest a link to a full Site Map page directly under the drop downs.
2) While the tone was overly harsh, the gentleman with the vendetta against Javascript is not all that unusual. It probably would be a good idea to develop a site that works as well without Javascript, though the Site Map page will probably obviate most of that need.
3) As already suggested, it's probably a good idea to move the gray bar directly underneath the drop-down. You may also want to put a number of the "shortcut" links there as well.
4) Borders - I suggest one between the logos and the content, and another between the sidebar and the content.
5) The "About the Site" section (which I assume will contain FAQ-y info) should probably also appear under "Misc". In addition, there's nothing that tells me to go to "Misc" for the site admin info, and it should probably be more clearly called out.

But those are all minor quibbles. I like it.


----------



## bmcdaniel (Jul 24, 2002)

*Use narrow columns*

Morrus-

I think the menus are fine, but I much prefer a narrower column of text for the news. I'm pretty sure that usability experts have decided that it is much easier on the eyes to have narrow columns of text rather than a line that stretches out the width of a page. If I were you, I'd make a narrow column surrounded by whitespace (blackspace?) on both sides.

If you're looking for ideas, I'd suggest visiting some of the blogs, which serve essentially the same function as the front page of ENWorld. There are a vast number of them and many have given serious thought to website design (they tend to be run by web admins in their spare time). Here are some examples: http://Instapundit.com, http://www.corante.com/bottomline/, http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/, http://www.scottandrew.com/, http://xplane.com/xblog/


----------



## FreeXenon (Jul 24, 2002)

I like the menu's, but I miss the WOTC Product Schedule along the right and the black pages...and having an indicator that there is a menu to pull over to would be good.

Other than that - it works!


----------



## Harlock (Jul 24, 2002)

Morrus, first of all:  Don't work too hard on this!  Although, as a rabid ENWorld fan I certainly appreciate it.  That said I checked out the dropdown2 version this morning and read all the new posts.  Some of this is repetitive from previous posts, but I think that is kind of the idea.  You're trying to get a consensus, right? =)

I really prefer the left side dropdown menu over the one at the top of the site.  I think I am having the same problem everyone else is though, in that the menu seems kind of "buggy".  If I drag across slowly, my cursor just stays an arrow and never changes to a hand, thereby activating the menu.  Also, sometimes the menu opens but not directly to the right, but rather, a little below and to the right.  Minor gripe that one, for if I drag horizantally it alleviates the problem of the menu vanishing on me.  

I would move the links from the right colmun under the left one.  It just feels better, keeping navigation in one area.  I'm not sure how that will affect the text.  Well, those are my first imressions of dropdown2.  I hope that was constructive.  Oh one more thing. Very minor and totally subjective:  I'd like the datestamp box to extend across the entire page.  It just seems kind of abrupt or something the way it just floats there.  I guess it doen't feel anchored to anything.  Anyway, I wish you continued success as always, and please, keep up the wonderful work.


----------



## Acmite (Jul 24, 2002)

*Eh*

I don't really like the new draft.

I liked it when the news was centered on the page, bracketed by the menu and poll, etc.

I don't like the text left justified, I find that it's harder to read.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jul 24, 2002)

Hmm.  Not real fond of the potential new layout myself.  Don't get me wrong, it's not awful, and it certainly wouldn't turn me off the site (but then again, almost nothing would ).  I just don't think it's nearly as attractive as the current one.


----------



## JadeLyon (Jul 24, 2002)

hmmm....

I think because of what you are trying to do, putting the java dropdowns AND various links on the side column(s) just don't look very balanced... they don't "mix" well.

I'd go with the drop-downs on the top.  And CENTERED.

I think we all like a very pretty column with pretty section headers, and nice neat subpage links below it, but there is so much content, you just can't fit that on a single screen.  So... even though I LIKE that format better than buttons, the dropdown from the top is the most practical.

Thing is, this site is a practial site.  Pretty is only needed to get wandering souls to stop and gawk.  So, go with what is aesthetically balanced, and practical.

At least that's my vote.

-Josef the Cat


----------



## Anthraxus (Jul 24, 2002)

I think the test page looks pretty good, a lot less cluttered! 

The news seemed to load a lot faster than the usual page. The menus showed up a little later, but I do have a slow 33k connection..  

I am here for the news, foremost!


----------



## Conaill (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Goodie!*



			
				GuardianLurker said:
			
		

> *2) While the tone was overly harsh, the gentleman with the vendetta against Javascript is not all that unusual. It probably would be a good idea to develop a site that works as well without Javascript, though the Site Map page will probably obviate most of that need.*




Ok, I'll admit to being overly harsh in my previous post.  Mind you, I LOVE the site, and I appreciate all the great work Morrus is putting into it!

That being said, I have to second the recommendation to have a look at http://www.RPGHost.com : I'm not that fond of having menus on top _and_ on the side, but their drop-down code works perfectly, and there's a link to their site index if you don't have javascript. Much cleaner implementation. (I'm not suggesting you follow their layout though. )


----------



## saduff (Jul 24, 2002)

No that design isn't at all good. Looks flakey. Enworld just needs some new colors. Maybe some minor layout changes.


----------



## Dire_Groundhog (Jul 24, 2002)

I like it just fine.

I won't miss the WOTC upcoming product line up at all.  Isn't that what their web page is for?   If someone is interested in a product, they will know when it is coming out without needing to be reminded daily on the main news page.  I like the extra text space opened up by the changes.

As long as the page is easy to read and less cluttered, I am all for the change.   I do like the dropdowns.  Ease of navigation good, sometimes I forget where things are. 

Can you add a link directly to the storyhour board under community?   Well, if you are reluctant to do that, I understand.


----------



## lambdaZUG (Jul 24, 2002)

A couple of (non-menu) points I'd like to toss into the discussion of a site redesign:

Fonts (peeve): Please, please do _not_ change the font size of body text. If you (Morrus) think the text is too big, then change your _browser's_ font size. If I set my browser to display 32 point fonts (e.g.), then I expect web sites to have 32 point fonts. This is particularly crucial for people with poor eyesight.

Also, using white text would help, as would having a solid black background for body text.

Furthermore, the <font> tag is deprecated, outmoded, obsolete. Use stylesheets instead. In fact, you really don't even need tables to accomplish the layout.

A layout I like (provided you ignore the colors) is A List Apart.

It would be helpful to have a more obvious partitioning scheme for the day's news. As it is, it is a nearly solid lump of text. I'd suggest ditching the bulleted list, and instead use headings.



Slashcode, anyone?


----------



## Mistwell (Jul 24, 2002)

I just don't get it. The main problem with this site is that you scroll through a mess of crap. But almost nothing is done to fix that. We should not be seeing 100% of the news articles on the front page. We should see a very short synopisis, and should be able to click on particular items that interest us to see the entire news item. That is how you do news without cluttering the entire front page with reams of news items of varying length.  That's why I referred people to www.comicbookresources.com . It isn't my site, it's just an award winning site that handles news that way.  In addition, it uses branding to imprint the color scheme of the site throughout everything you see. However, the new redesign uses even less branding of colors than even the current site (making the right hand side all black, with no border). I'm not trying to bash the hard work that went into this stuff, I'm just saying "what is it you are trying to accomplish"? If it is to get rid of clutter, and to brand the site better, the new site doesn't accomplish either goal very well, with the exception of the new bar at the top (which is an improvement to the clutter).


----------



## Henry (Jul 24, 2002)

Perhaps the voices outweighed me whilst I was away, but I do not find the Pop-out menus being to the left side instead of at the top at all aesthetically pleasing, nor useful.

I preferred the top, a la RPGShop. I still love the pull-down menu concept, because they do not clutter the page, and provide a common reference point for all pages you are on, but having them to the side really throws me off.

Good luck!


----------



## Clint (Jul 24, 2002)

*Drop-down problems*

I'll second the drop-down menu problems. When on the top of the page, half of them popped up behind the ad, so I couldn't see what they said.

And when the menu is on the left (in your second iteration), I had to move the mouse in strange ways to cancel a menu dropdown, as detailed above.

I'm using IE5 on Win2000.

But then again, opening up a web redesign for general comments is insane. Just do what you like.


----------



## cybertalus (Jul 24, 2002)

This will probably only matter to about three people, but in Opera on the page with the menus at the top, every time the banner ad changes, the page reloads.  This makes the page unusable under Opera.

This doesn't happen with the side-menu version though.


----------



## Acmite (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: I do not like it*



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> OK, I've tried that here:
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/dropdown2/ *




I like the centered news in this version much better, and I like the idea of drop-down (or drop-out) menus, but I still prefer the current page.


----------



## jujutsunerd (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: I do not like it*



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> OK, I've tried that here:
> http://www.enworld.org/dropdown2/ *




I definitely prefer the menus to the left.

/Jonas


----------



## corvus (Jul 24, 2002)

*use tabs*

my opinions:

Drop down menus on web pages are horrible no matter where you put them. Keep sidebars on the left if you must use them so that text can freely flow with browser width. The page is too dark. Dark text on light backgrounds would be beter.

I suggest you use tabs, like amazon.com, or apple.com. They are simple and effective. That's why those places use them.

I suggest you read a book on web design. Try Steve Krug's _Don't Make Me Think_. See http://www.sensible.com/buythebook.html

I'll summarize this wonderful book: Use tabs.

Good luck with the redesign.


----------



## Trevalon Moonleirion (Jul 25, 2002)

Me likes the looks of the test, Morrus.  The drop-down or side menus are nice; you've kept the current color scheme which I like quite a bit, and it's not too radically different.  That comicbook resources website is an eyesore.  Techically very nice...but yeuch!

for the love of god, though... NO LIGHT BACKGROUND!!!  I absolutely hate reading things off of the computer, and the current colors are very easy on the eyes.


----------



## Shirt Guy John (Jul 25, 2002)

I reallt like the new setup.  It does look a lot less cramped, and much more asthetically apealing.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 25, 2002)

I prefer the menu-to-the-left version. When the menu is on top, the banner is in front of lots of menu items, simply disabling access the them.


----------



## Kershek (Jul 25, 2002)

I'd rather see dark text on light background as well.  It's also easier to print out.

And hopefully you won't use the design of that comicbookresources.com site.  Very impersonal and scrunched.  

Basically, you're going to hear all sorts of conflicting advice.  I don't envy you


----------



## OaxacanWarrior (Jul 25, 2002)

Morrus, I like the new look.  It's a lot simpler and more streamlined.  Good work!!


----------



## urDrakas (Jul 25, 2002)

First time posting to the forums, but I've been visitng this page and/or Eric's since 3ED came out.  As for the site redesign, very professional looking.  Easy to navigate, and not too cluttered.  I like it.

urDrakas


----------



## William Ronald (Jul 25, 2002)

Morrus,

I like the menus on the  left.   I doubt you will have everyone agree on everything.  So, use your best judgement.

A site map might be good for those people with older browsers.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 25, 2002)

I can't seem to fix either of the menu problems - the banner-in-the-way issue or the left-menu-freezing issue.   Don't know if that's because I did something wrong or because the script's shoddy.  If I can't fix that, though, I won't be using it.


----------



## sawyer0413 (Jul 25, 2002)

*Website Redesign*

Morrus,

While you may have seen this already referenced, I would strongly recommend Jakob Nielsen's excellent books (2) on website redesign. I think once you take a look at those (Designing Web Usability and Homepage Usability), you might come away with some different ideas.

Forgive me for being unspecific otherwise. I can not write a better treatise on your website than he has already done, and you would be much better served reading his books. I'd recommend Homepage Usability if you could only read one.

I wish you all the luck in the world. Your webpage (and Eric's before it), is part of my daily routine. I'll look forward to the changes as time goes on.

Feel free to contact me directly if you would like more specifics. I'd be glad to give my input. But I would not think this forum would be the proper place to continue that discussion.

Best Regards,
Bill Sawyer


----------



## SamSpectre (Jul 25, 2002)

*Interface*

I was unable to see any drop down menus with my browser (OmniWeb for Mac OS X).  I guess I'll have to grab Mozilla or something if I want to read ENWorld from now on.


----------



## thomkt (Jul 25, 2002)

*The drop down page*

My wife designs websites (no, not little piddley things, she's done work for Intel, Nike and The GAP, to name a few), and she likes the second one. It's less cluttered. 

It'll take a little while to get used to what's under which dropdown.

- Kyle


----------



## Gargoyle (Jul 25, 2002)

Thumbs up.  I like the less cluttered look.


----------



## Grraf (Jul 25, 2002)

*not another resizer...*

Hmm. A lot of people post without bothering to read (it's a bad habit of mine to from time to time. Of course if you're reading this then you probably already got that)

dropdown 2 looks very good.

I have a lower bandwith connection and thre thoughts/requests:
1. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T RESIZE. A number of sites have started either focing auto-reload periodically or reloading the whole page every single time you adjust the size of the window.
[it may be that this resizing is somehow nessessary but I've seen some pretty complex sites that do take a second to change themselves after you've changed the window size but without actually forcing a whole new reload.]
[also I'll sometimes click through to a banner after I'm done reading. I went to Oathbound that way, for example. If the ad keeps changing I think the odds of that are a bit less. Though I suppose you can tell advertisers that they'll be getting "more exposure" with the new enforced downloading thing.]

2. I think people should be able to get to what they want with a minimal amount of clicking. I would be thrilled if you remembered that 
a. downloading pure text (i.e. news bits) requires about no bandwith.
b. pictures (especially your banner ads) download slowly. forcing people to load them over and over again is kinda a pain in the butt.

3. Many readers don't check daily. You occasionally update a page twice in one day. Put the last five days of news up.
Forcing people to click through to get data (ala Mistwell) is pretty irritating and unessessary. You already seem to have a good sense of what's important enough that everybody see it (today's comments from Ryan D. for example) and what deserves a blurb and a link.

I've also seen the "jamming" issue on dropdown2's menus (mentioned above). I'm sure it can be corrected, maybe an enWorlder with some html could glance at the source?

Tabs are useful when (like hotmail or amazon) you have a limited number of choices. In the name of not having to navigate through lots and lots of pages to get what you want I think the current way is best. Plus enWorld servers don't have to feed you all that data and grafics you don't need.

Last comment: Put reviews somewhere with the world reviews. Calling it the D20 system guild is pretty confusing. I always putz around for a while before remembering that that's what its called. Especially since there are a WotC products in there. They aren't D20 products.... they're D&D as are certain other products like Kenzer and co.

cheers


----------



## EdD (Jul 25, 2002)

Bits of feedback...

1) The menus are nice, but I dont see the JavaScript menus adding much, usability wise.  To be honest, I prefer what you have right now - everything listed on the left.  This lets a visitor see what's available on the site immediately, without having to purposely inspect the menus.  But, if you do go with the menus, I thought the left-side option was nicer.  

2) I find light text on a black background to be *very* difficult on the eyes.  I have trouble using the site more than a few minutes at a time because of this.  I know not everyone agrees, but I'm sure a lot of people do.  

3) For the articles and news, I'd like to see shorter headlines that link to full articles.  Much the way online newspapers do it.  It'd be easier to survey what's new at a glance, and probably cut down on the overall bandwidth.


----------



## mindqwerk (Jul 25, 2002)

Morrus,

Great idea, applying a new menu system to clean up the link navigation (If those were the only two choices I would go with #2).

If you end up changing color schemes, or drastically change the look, lemme know and I'll update/redo the logo.


----------



## Mistwell (Jul 25, 2002)

*Reducing the news to links is good*

Morrus is not happy with the thought that his site is considered a "news" site.

However, when you go the site, 90% of the words on the front page are news.

Is it any surprise that people consider this a news site? It isn't to me. 

To solve this, all you have to do is give the same attention to the news as you do to all other content on this site.  All other content, other than news, is a short description with a link.  

It also isn't a coicidence that all sites I know of, that have won any awards, or that are from major content providers, also have a short description of news with a link to the full story.  That's how you do a news item without a lot of clutter.

In fact, go look at any news site. Check out cnn.com, cnbc.com, msnbc.com, foxnews.com, yahoo.com. You will find that they ALL give a short description and a link, NOT the full article, on the front page.

Go check out any well-known fan-site as well. Check out some sports sites, like http://www.nba.com/ , or http://msn.espn.go.com/main.html .  Check out the major comic book sites, or business sites, or even business-collapse sites like f*ckedcompany.com .  All of them give you a short description, with a link to the full story.

That's why this site looks so cluttered all the time.  I mean go look at the front page right now.  You have reams of news all over it.  Ryan Dancey's comment takes up an entire page of text by itself, yet many people may not care what Ryan has to say about Polite Use of the Open Gaming License.  But if you do care, why can't you just click on the news item to pull up the entire article with the entire message? 

If a change isn't made with the new site design, you will once again be dooming this site to a "industry news site" reputation.  When almost everything you see when you go to the site is a news item, your natural conclusion will be to think of this place as a news site.  However, if news were treated like all other content, with a short description and a link, then you would be portraying the actual content of the board in a more fair, representative manner.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 25, 2002)

Mistwell, i think that you misunderstood my feelings on how I want the site to be viewed.

The issue is not news/not news (OBVIOUSLY it's a news site), it's fan-site/faceless-organization.


----------



## Mistwell (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm sorry, I never thought of this as a news site. I always thought of this as a fan community site, with news as an element (though not a more important element than any of the other content). Now I am to learn this is an industry news site? Ah well, you learn something new every day.

However, even as a news site, you don't want the entire text of the news up on the front page, if you want it to look good.  As I cited above, even news sites put a synopsis of the news, with a link to the full article.


----------



## Kormac (Jul 25, 2002)

*Nice, but....*

The new site-design looks good. It's far less cluttered. However, there is one problem with the way it works now - browser compatibility. I only use Linux at home (as an increasing number of people do). The drop-downs work perfectly in the widespread open-source browser Mozilla (And so also in Netscape 6 and 7 I presume), but with Opera and Konqueror (Which are the ones I normally use) the animated ads are displayed on top of the drop-downs, hiding them. If this could be solved I'm sure more people than myself would be grateful.


----------



## The Kender (Jul 25, 2002)

Okay, here's my report for Linux users:

Mozilla:
     Layout 1: Laggy, menu's go under the ad
     Layout 2: Even more laggy then the first one
Konqueror:
     Layout 1: Works well, still has the ad problem
     Layout 2: Almost crashed Konqueror

Conclusion: Enworld is a lot easier to surf without the menu's.  I don't mean to sound rude, but I don't like to wait for the menu's to load up and then try to make them work.  Personally, I like Enworld how it is.  It looks nice, and it is fast.  Besides, I almost always keep javascripts off.


----------



## Warchild (Jul 25, 2002)

I like the first drop down, with the text starting at the left. It was a little wierd at first, but i grew to like it as i kept comparing the two samples. The first one spreads out the news so that you don't have to scroll down so much. I like that. The second exampale still looks too crowded.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 25, 2002)

I've seen Morrus treated like his site was basically just a repository for press releases by publishers. I've seen such publishers act rather arrogantly about it, like Morrus was there to be at their beck and call. This didn't begin with Morrus' tenure - I'm sure many of the long-time posters remember when WotC's message boards were gone for literally months, back when Eric was running the site. You saw WotC people posting here all the time, and the site used as a _de facto_ WotC site. Then, when WotC's boards were back, many of them vanished. There were some who stayed as regulars here, but if I had been Eric, I know I'd feel like I'd been used and not really acknowledged or compensated for it. I see evidence of this type of treatment being done to Morrus now. There are plenty of great and loyal board members who are also publishers, who treat Morrus and EN World with respect. But it only takes a relatively small number of les-than-polite folk to make the whole thing a drag for whoever is running the site.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 25, 2002)

Here you go.

http://psionicist.online.fr/enworld


----------



## Conaill (Jul 25, 2002)

Mistwell: I don't think Morrus wants to be in a position to write full-page news on a regular basis. If he were to do so, I agree he should just have headlines and highlights on the front page.

However, most of the news on the front page is _only_ headlines and highlights. A couple of rumors here, a new release there, some quotes from insiders, etc. Giving those all their own page would be silly, and I think the ENworld community much prefers the condensed, daily updates anyway.

In those few cases where there is a significant "chunk" of news, as in the case of Ryan Dancey's comments, or even in the case of Morrus's own annoucement of the redesign, I do think it would indeed be better just to mention some highlights and then refer to a URL to find out more (possibly posting the full comments on the bulletin boards). For example, here's my summary of Ryan's comments:

Ryan said there are very few restrictions on using Open Game Content, but for the sake of the OGC community, please be "polite" about it. So inform people when you're planning to use their OGC content in your work, and give back to the community by releasing as much of your own original contents under the OGL as well. The full text of Ryan's comments can be found here


----------



## Eosin the Red (Jul 25, 2002)

I like Psi's stuff.

The colors could use some tweaking but otherwise it looks great.


----------



## KnowTheToe (Jul 25, 2002)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> *Here you go.
> 
> http://psionicist.online.fr/enworld *




I really like the layout.  I like the color choice, but maybe the background could be a subtle grey or  light blue instead of white.  I definitely like the lack of black.  The current layout makes me feel like I am a mole reading something in a dark dingy basement with a single light bulb hanging on a cord from the ceiling swinging slightly over my head.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 25, 2002)

I will try some different colors to see how things look.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 25, 2002)

I like it, too Psionicist.  Now it's got me thinking about combinations of that, an includes file for the news, and 2-3 differnet index pages eith different colours.  Only problem is, I'd only be prepared to do the one page in different colours, not the whole site - duplicating every page 4 times would be a bit much!


----------



## CRG (Jul 25, 2002)

Again, I like black.  

Black is snazzy.  Difficulty reading is less driven by color than by brigthness / contrast.  And I'm a traditionalist.

If any of you are old enough to remember the days before MS Windows, WordPerfect and a number of companies did a few human-factors studies that (at least at the time) showed that (1) color themes are good (2) contrast and brigthness are more important than the base colors chosen.

They went with a blue background, because the white basically washes everything out over time.  White lettering on a dark blue  page was supposedly easier to read than black on white.  Then again, it was also easier to read than white on black as well.

Maybe I'm insane.

I still like black.

Have you tried one of the charcoal colors you use on the message board?  Either light-gray and black text, or dark grey and white text?  The advantage to the darker background is that obviously your color highlights will show better.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 25, 2002)

Here something completely different, almost 

http://psionicist.online.fr/enworld/index2.php

Morrus: I have built that thing so it's easy to maintain. There's one index which is the "core" no one have to care about, with the looks and code. Then we have the "menu", and different "submenus". The menu is one file, and every and each sub category has their own file.

This is the sub_misc.php file for one:

```
[color=#FFFFFF]<!-- Note to self: The title MUST be on row 2 of file
Miscellaneous
-->
- <a href="?submenu=sub_misc&sektion=contact.html">Contact</a><br>
- <a href="?submenu=sub_misc&sektion=advertising.html">Advertising</a><br>
- <a href="?submenu=sub_misc&sektion=logos.html">Logos</a><br>
- <a href="?submenu=sub_misc&sektion=supportenw.html">Support EN World</a><br>
- <a href="?submenu=sub_misc&sektion=aboutrus.html">About Russell</a>[/color]
```

Look at the &sektion=blah.html part (it is really spelled section, but the board will format & and sect to a paragraph sign, as per standard HTML, but without the ;... nevermind), when you click the link, that file will be included in the main box (that is you will always be at the index.php file, almost). You don't have to change anything except for maybe highlighted colors, as well as you have to remove the HTML, HEAD and BODY tags.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 25, 2002)

Very spiffy.

Hey, here's a thought, Psionicist.  

1) How complicated would it be to let users have different items appear depending on their preferences?  That could be a series of index pages (index1, index2 etc.) and they just bookmark their choice.  Some might have more stuff (e.g. latet review, an extra menu etc.) and others will have less.

2) I know nothing about stylesheets and stuff.  Would they be the thing I'd need to to let people chosoe thier colour scheme?


----------



## Harlock (Jul 25, 2002)

Psionicistesessss,

I like this one a lot better. I just despise white.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 25, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *Very spiffy.
> 
> Hey, here's a thought, Psionicist.
> 
> ...




That's easy to fix 

The index.php file does not contain ANY content, just the design and code that process information from other files. This means I can create an infinite ammount of different designs and layouts based on that one file if I keep the code that include files back and forth, because that's the ONLY file with the actual design. The files included are just plain text formatted with font tags and lists 

Try this: http://psionicist.online.fr/enworld/sec_news.php . 
and http://psionicist.online.fr/enworld/index.php?section=sec_news

The "section=" part includes the sec_news (the code adds an .php extension itself for security and design reasons) in the big content box. It's very nice and simple when you know how it works.


----------



## Harlock (Jul 25, 2002)

Psionicist

I dig the one that had the full news on it.  But what happened to the nice beige? That white is back!  Other than that, I prefer the version that was not full screen, oddly enough, considering I griped at you earlier in the irc channel because it wasted a third of my screen.  Go figure.


----------



## snimmo (Jul 25, 2002)

I like the layout Psionist, nice and clean.

This is sort of what I was talking about, though the strength in slashdot and similar sites is the integration of the comments with 
the articles.

I have a feeling they maybe technical hurdles though, not all hosting sites support PHP. 

regards,
Scott


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 25, 2002)

Okay, try this: http://psionicist.online.fr/enworld/index.php

You can choose three schemes now (but only one look nice.) It is saved in a cookie too.

Edit: The server is a bit slow right now but it will calm down in some hours.

Example of color scheme file:

```
[color=#FFFFFF]
<?
// dark color scheme

$bgcolor="#000000";
$boxbgcolor="#888888";
$boxbordercolor="#FFFFFF";
$textcolor="#FFFFCC;";
$linkcolor="#FFFFFF";
$visitedlinkcolor="#BBBBBB";
$activelinkcolor="#005500";
$hovercolor="#AA0000";

?>
[/color]
```


----------



## Morrus (Jul 25, 2002)

Wow - cool!  How does that work?


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 26, 2002)

PHP is a powerful language my friend 

Read part:
1) Before the actual site is loaded, the website looks if there's a cookie file on the computer. If it is, it loads one of the schemes with variables storing color values. If there is no cookie, it use the default scheme.

Save part:
1) You select a scheme and press the OK button.
2) Now the website transfers you to the saving spot. Here, the server looks at the data sent (the color scheme selected), and it saves that data in a cookie file that will delete itself in one year.

Various stuff.

Look at the above sample file: I have defined a color as $bgcolor instead of a normal value. So in the index.php file instead of writing bgcolor=#000000 i write 
bgcolor="<? echo $bgcolor; ?>"


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 26, 2002)

Here is the code. Just DON'T PANIC!

To run this code on your computer, you need a webserver installed, as PHP is a serverside language which means it runs on the server unlike HTML than runs on your own machine. If you want to play around with this I suggest you to install PHPTriad. It is VERY EASY to install (you click "ok" and it's done) 

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/phptriad/phptriadsetup2-11.exe?download

If you want to try playing with PHP I can send you the rest of the files. I recommend it, it's a fun language. Reference can be found here: www.php.net/manual/en

Right click then SAVE AS to download the code and view it correctly


----------



## Valdier (Jul 26, 2002)

As a note the drop downs do not work on the latest build of mozilla 1.1 beta.

A second comment, noting that you are currently using plain html for near everything, if you plan to make a language switch, I would go with java... it pretty much has taken over the server side market, and scales far better than php or perl (the only other real alternatives). Java is *the* server side language these days, if you want an example of how well it can work, and how easy:

www.valdier.com/backup/monsterFinder

I am planning to submit this link to your site as a community tool as soon as I get CR's < 1 working... but note that everything you see on that site is all done from the same web page... the url never changes because it literally is all one page doing a bunch of java stuff in the background and just showing what people want to see in the foreground.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 26, 2002)

Valdier said:
			
		

> *As a note the drop downs do not work on the latest build of mozilla 1.1 beta.
> 
> A second comment, noting that you are currently using plain html for near everything, if you plan to make a language switch, I would go with java... it pretty much has taken over the server side market, and scales far better than php or perl (the only other real alternatives). Java is *the* server side language these days, if you want an example of how well it can work, and how easy:
> 
> ...




Waaah!! Java is dang slow compared to PHP and Perl, and it has not "taken over the market". Is it even open source?


----------



## Morrus (Jul 26, 2002)

I don't really have time to learn anything major. 

Another problem occurs to me - the current news page is on a W2K server (because of the ASP elements of the ad banners, the reviews pageand other stuff).

The server this messageboard is on is LInux (as you can tell, because the boards use PHP).  So I have a problem with parts of the site needing W2K and other parts needing Linux.


----------



## Valdier (Jul 26, 2002)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Waaah!! Java is dang slow compared to PHP and Perl, and it has not "taken over the market". Is it even open source? *




This really doesn't need to get into a slashdot "mine is more open source than yours" discussion. Reality is, nobody cares if it is open source as long as it is free. The source code for all of java is available but it is not free as in GNU. As a second note, I would be willing to put money up against java outperforming php for serverside tasks. I would be willing to put money on java for outperforming many c++ operations. Because java is run time compiled it allows the compiler to optimize for the specific task, operations, and platform it is running on. The idea that java is slow is possibly the most antiquated thinking amongst uninformed programmers, primarily those that have never used the language. Java was slow in it's first release, it is an extremely fast language these days. 

Another point I made, PHP is known to not scale well, in comparison to Perl, sure... it does better, but compared to a real language, it is far from enterprise capable. If you would like documentation to go with these claims I made, I am always willing to offer them to backup my statements. If you can show me somehow that your claim of it being slow is true... I would love to see it. Forrester Research places java in well over 50% of the Global 3,500.


----------



## Valdier (Jul 26, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *I don't really have time to learn anything major.
> 
> Another problem occurs to me - the current news page is on a W2K server (because of the ASP elements of the ad banners, the reviews pageand other stuff).
> 
> The server this messageboard is on is LInux (as you can tell, because the boards use PHP).  So I have a problem with parts of the site needing W2K and other parts needing Linux. *




What web server specifically? IIS?

Java of course works on any platform/hardware, PHP works on most also.


----------



## Valdier (Jul 26, 2002)

As a note, the url I gave above was wrong... lets try again 

http://www.valdier.com/backup/monsterShopper

I had changed the name recently and forgotten 

(also, let me know your thoughts on it)


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 26, 2002)

Valdier said:
			
		

> *As a note, the url I gave above was wrong... lets try again
> 
> http://www.valdier.com/backup/monsterShopper
> 
> ...




Can you share the code so I can look at it?


----------



## Valdier (Jul 26, 2002)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Can you share the code so I can look at it? *




Sure, it isn't in the best of shape right now, I am waiting for permission from Sword and Sorcery to include their books, when they do, I plan to do a big rewrite of it to make it much easier to maintain and to remove 90% of the redundancy that is currently in the "include" jsp pages. So forgive me for the ugliness of the source, I never expected anyone else to see it and hadn't cleaned it up 

http://www.valdier.com/backup/monsterShopper/src.zip


----------



## Krug (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Reducing the news to links is good*



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> *Morrus is not happy with the thought that his site is considered a "news" site.
> *




I'd certainly like to see new reviews on a sidebar on the main page. To see if there are any I have to click on reviews first.


----------



## Mistwell (Jul 26, 2002)

*Conaill, good points*



			
				Conaill said:
			
		

> *Mistwell: I don't think Morrus wants to be in a position to write full-page news on a regular basis. If he were to do so, I agree he should just have headlines and highlights on the front page.
> 
> However, most of the news on the front page is only headlines and highlights. A couple of rumors here, a new release there, some quotes from insiders, etc. Giving those all their own page would be silly, and I think the ENworld community much prefers the condensed, daily updates anyway.
> 
> ...




Those are all good points.  I actually had not thought about those news items that are so short that they don't need a link, nor about the added work for Morrus to make it in the "cleaner" format.

Fair enough.


----------



## Valdier (Jul 26, 2002)

I got a bit bored last night so I went ahead and put together a mockup taking what I liked from both Morrus and Psionicist's work and put together a sorta "mix" version, I am adding a little more simple of a menu to the top, a non-javascript version(since it doesn't work in mozilla). If you check it and it isn't there give it a little bit and it will be 


www.valdier.com/backup/enworld


btw, psionicist, I refreshed that source code since last night, you might wan't to re-download it as some of the files I gave you were bad development files, not what is currently live.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 26, 2002)

Yay! We are making progress. We are now two happy geeks working for Morrus and EN World, for twice as good result. 

Regarding if you can use PHP, that is easy to fix. You can put the "core", a 5kb big php file on the messageboard server in say, an "enworld" folder, then we can put redirect from the w2k server and use that one for storing all the sections. This is good because you don't need to touch that particular file as there's only and only code in it.


----------



## Valdier (Jul 26, 2002)

Ok, so I put my menus up top, but as I was going through it, I thought to myself... I really like Psionicists sub-menus, but I am not sure they stand out enough(Draw enough attention to the fact there is now a sub-menu, the other problem being, bandwith usage goes way up, because you have to reload the page each time someone clicks a link...

So I put the menubar at the top of my page, I kinda prefer that one, but I would put Psionicists sub-menu on the bar to the left, but make it an IFRAME so that only the submenu ever has to load. Of course this does mean people will have to use a browser that was released in the last 3 years...


----------



## Morrus (Jul 26, 2002)

OK, that sounds cool.  So what would I need to do, exactly? (Remember - you're talking to an idiot here!)


----------



## Valdier (Jul 26, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *OK, that sounds cool.  So what would I need to do, exactly? (Remember - you're talking to an idiot here!) *




The easiest way would be to go with php on the message servers since your server already has it running, but you would have to talk to Psionicist about how his specific schema works for loading colors 

I used java for mine, so it would be a slightly larger change needed.

Actually now that I think about it... Psi, you aren't loading the colors from a file each time someone hits the page are you? That could potentially bring the sight to a crawl with how slow disk access is... does php have a persistant method of storing that in memory like javas servlets?


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 26, 2002)

Valdier said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The easiest way would be to go with php on the message servers since your server already has it running, but you would have to talk to Psionicist about how his specific schema works for loading colors
> 
> ...




Yes, they are stored in files, however (and note however) it only reads from the file once, and it's only some bytes to read. Conclusion: Not a problem


----------



## CRGreathouse (Jul 26, 2002)

Valdier - I wouldn't worry about the preference files slowing down performance - they're too small to make that large of a change.  To agree with Psi: Not a problem.


----------



## Valdier (Jul 27, 2002)

Okie cool, just wasn't sure how many hits a day the site was getting overall


----------



## JDRay (Jul 27, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *The server this messageboard is on is LInux (as you can tell, because the boards use PHP).  So I have a problem with parts of the site needing W2K and other parts needing Linux. *




There's a good set of instructions (short) for installing PHP on Windows.  It's at http://www.pcquest.com/content/networking/102020512.asp.  Of course, Java runs everywhere.  I think that either one (or both) could be very effectively used to enhance ENWorld.  The trick is to come up with some sort of form page that enables the author (that's you, Morrus) to "fill in the blank" to get the news out in a preset, standard format.  I don't know if you're currently editing HTML to do the front page each day, but you shouldn't have to.


----------



## Valdier (Jul 27, 2002)

I just wanted to give a quick update if anyone is using my monster tools at the moment... (apparently a *lot* of people are from my logs) but, I am bring the server down for a bit to upgrade the OS after several years of stalling... so hopefully it will be back up, and not too late this evening


----------



## ergeheilalt (Jul 27, 2002)

*Re: New Site*

Wow, it looks alot different. I like the pull down menu, but I nearly missed it cause it was right at the top on the window. Maybe you could put a buffer (or banner) up there. I like the larger space for the news, but without the menus on each side it seems it looks alot like the Black Pages and could be confusing for people just surfing in.

There is my 2 cents,

Ergeheilalt, wizard extraordinary


----------



## Darraketh (Jul 28, 2002)

Valdier said:
			
		

> *I got a bit bored last night so I went ahead and put together a mockup taking what I liked from both Morrus and Psionicist's work and put together a sorta "mix" version, I am adding a little more simple of a menu to the top, a non-javascript version(since it doesn't work in mozilla). If you check it and it isn't there give it a little bit and it will be
> 
> 
> www.valdier.com/backup/enworld
> ...




Hmmm...  the top menu does need to stand out more.  Perhaps a divider between the menu options.  And the cursor doesn't change to the hand.  

So with the dark gray hi-lighting on a black background and the pointer telling me it was just text and not a link I was saying; what menu?


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 28, 2002)

So... Morrus, can you organize this? I need to know if you are interested in my layout? You see for every day I'm not working on it the more tired I get of it...


----------



## Morrus (Jul 28, 2002)

I'm thinking it's a little too much for me.  Very cool, but I'd be more comfortable doing something like that if I was more of a techie.

Also - I won't be doing anything until after I get back from Gen Con anyway.  I'll be giving this a lot more thought then.


----------



## Phowett (Jul 28, 2002)

I actually like the layout and colors and all of the site as it is. I think the site can use a little more organized content, though.


----------



## Griswold (Jul 29, 2002)

There is only one thing I would change about EN World, and that is please open links in new windows....  It's a pain to have to keep going back to the main page.

Otherwise i love the site.

Griz.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 29, 2002)

Griswold said:
			
		

> *There is only one thing I would change about EN World, and that is please open links in new windows....  It's a pain to have to keep going back to the main page.
> *




I've done that in the past - you have no idea how many people complained!

The thing with having them open in a new windown or not, is that if they don't, the people who want them to can still do so by right clivking and selecting "open link in new window", whereas if they do open in a new window, the people who don't want them too have no way around it.

So, the best thing to do is to set them so they don't.  Then the people who want them to can just do so.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Jul 29, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *The thing with having them open in a new windown or not, is that if they don't, the people who want them to can still do so by right clivking and selecting "open link in new window", whereas if they do open in a new window, the people who don't want them too have no way around it.
> 
> So, the best thing to do is to set them so they don't.  Then the people who want them to can just do so. *




_CRGreathouse applauds._


----------



## Kershek (Jul 29, 2002)

Griswold said:
			
		

> *There is only one thing I would change about EN World, and that is please open links in new windows....  It's a pain to have to keep going back to the main page.
> 
> Otherwise i love the site.
> 
> Griz. *




The easiest way to do this is to hold down shift when clicking on a link and it will open in a new window.


----------



## Valdier (Jul 30, 2002)

Kershek said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The easiest way to do this is to hold down shift when clicking on a link and it will open in a new window. *




Nah the easiest way is to use Mozilla, middle click and open it in a new Tab. If you haven't tried tabbed browsing yet, you should, it is the best thing since browsers were released imo


----------



## NemesisPress (Jul 30, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *So, what we're possibly looking at here is, essentially, saying goodbye to EN World and creating something new and fresh from the ashes.  The content will all be the same, of course (I'm not planning on losing anything).*




Since you also mentioned something about not wanting to become primarily a forum for press releases, I'd suggest thinking about making the site bipartite (sort of a frontpage/backpage) idea along the lines of how a newspaper segregates sections). That would allow you to focus in on the content in different ways in each section - and you could even farm out the industry news to someone else if you wanted.


----------

