# Insider: Character Visualizer canceled?



## NMcCoy (Feb 17, 2009)

Seems there's been a recent change to the Insider page, and now there's no mention of the visualizer. Is this, in combination with the recent survey suggesting a refocusing of priorities, a sign that the visualizer's been canned?


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## Quien (Feb 17, 2009)

The game table is no longer mentioned as well.


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## GMforPowergamers (Feb 17, 2009)

so are you just guessing here then...


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## Umbran (Feb 17, 2009)

The survey still seems to be open - if you're going to pay for research, you'd normally wait until your data was in, and then allow for analysis, before you changed your priorities.  And you normally don't start changing your message until you know the new set of priorities.

Not proof of anything, of course...


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## tylerthehobo (Feb 17, 2009)

That's a drag...  Wonder how long until they convert the remaining stuff to two magazines, one geared towards players and one geared towards DMs, and sell them in book stores and gaming shops and...oh...right...


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## MerricB (Feb 17, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> so are you just guessing here then...




Digital Insider #20



> After that… well, we’re working on that. We had grand plans and we were overly ambitious in what could actually be accomplished in the time we had. We don’t want to overextend or overpromise anymore. We’re going to finish the D&D Character Builder, then take stock of where we are and what we can and should concentrate on next. Things are in the works, and I look forward to the day when the whole grand plan comes together. But we’ll be more realistic in our goals and timelines moving forward. I’ll talk more about this in the weeks and months ahead, both here and in Digital Insider.




Also in Ampersand.

Cheers!


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## Ashrem Bayle (Feb 17, 2009)

I REALLY hope they don't ditch the Game Table. The Visualizer sounded cool, but I really only cared about it as far as having a custom mini for the Virtual Game Table.

I'd be really surprised to hear that the Game Table is getting scrapped based on the feedback. From what I've seen, the Game Table was easily the most anticipated product after the Character Builder.

Dear WOTC,
Please don't let the Game Table die. 
-Ash


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## Mark (Feb 17, 2009)

iCon 2009 is coming again in April - Four Ugly Monsters.  VTTs can be tried out there.


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## Shemeska (Feb 17, 2009)

Well, as I recall they were planning on a redesign of the website. If they've taken down all mention of the Visualizer and Game Table (which had already been somewhat marginalized) then it's probably fairly indicative of the direction that WotC is going.

*shakes the Magic 8-Ball*

Signs point to WotC cancelling them both, or at the very least removing mention of them for a future cancellation.


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## Dire Bare (Feb 17, 2009)

NMcCoy said:


> Seems there's been a recent change to the Insider page, and now there's no mention of the visualizer. Is this, in combination with the recent survey suggesting a refocusing of priorities, a sign that the visualizer's been canned?




The Visualizer is kinda useless without the Gametable.  I doubt, however, that the Visualizer and Gametable have been cancelled.  A lot of work has gone into both and they are close to being beta-ready, as people have played around with workable versions at various cons.

I think what the website changes and vague references in the various news columns mean is that WotC is going to take their time and try to get things right.  I'm sure we'll see these apps eventually, hopefully by the end of this year.  But WotC doesn't want people getting angsty about why the "Gametable" button on the website has led to a placeholder for so long.

Of course, who knows?  If WotC decides to cancel the applications, they probably won't tell us at all . . . other than perhaps some friendly WotC employee on the boards might let it slip.  If they still plan on delivering these apps, we won't know for sure until not only have their plans solidified, but the apps are much closer to beta . . . whenever that is.


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## malraux (Feb 17, 2009)

Dire Bare said:


> The Visualizer is kinda useless without the Gametable.  I doubt, however, that the Visualizer and Gametable have been cancelled.  A lot of work has gone into both and they are close to being beta-ready, as people have played around with workable versions at various cons.




I've heard that, but also heard that all of that code had to be scrapped for some reason relating to poor handling of DRM.


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## GMforPowergamers (Feb 17, 2009)

malraux said:


> I've heard that, but also heard that all of that code had to be scrapped for some reason relating to poor handling of DRM.




source please...




> Things are in the works, and I look forward to the day when the whole grand plan comes together.




this tells me there is no change yet...


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## malraux (Feb 17, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> source please...




Obviously this is roughly eighty-second hand, so it could be complete bunk, but source.


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## Herremann the Wise (Feb 17, 2009)

malraux said:


> Obviously this is roughly eighty-second hand, so it could be complete bunk, but source.



So far this source has been on the money so I'd guess: not canned, but they're going to take their time to get it right.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## wedgeski (Feb 17, 2009)

I can see the visualiser still being useful without the game table (import image of your PC onto your Character Builder sheet, for example). What we've seen of it suggested it was pretty far along, but if the game table is in doubt then a decision may have been made that the need to constantly add new art assets to the program as more and more splat books were released is just not worth the money.

I hope neither have been cancelled, and that the web site has been purged only because two constantly greyed-out boxes on the DDI page was becoming something of an embarrasment.


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## avin (Feb 17, 2009)

It would be perfect if game table uses Temple of Elemental Evil graphic engine, IMO...


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Feb 17, 2009)

It's nice to see WoTC being a bit more realistic about their abilities in the software area.  

In the meantime, it seems like they could do worse than supporting MapTools.

Ken


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## Festivus (Feb 17, 2009)

Haffrung Helleyes said:


> It's nice to see WoTC being a bit more realistic about their abilities in the software area.
> 
> In the meantime, it seems like they could do worse than supporting MapTools.
> 
> Ken




I like that maptools is free.  However, I'd be willing to fork over a small amount of money per month if it was tightly integrated with DDI tools.  I agree, it would be done way quicker if they could make a deal with the maptool folks (who seem to have a lot of experience with the game table realm)


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## Scribble (Feb 17, 2009)

Why bother putting an ad for soemthing you don't have a specific timeline for? (I think they learned their lesson.)

Leavig the "comming soon" on the info page seems like it would just invite more screams of "Wizards promised us Game table in the comming soon, and I signed upa nd it's still not here! They lied to us!!!"

This way they're flat out stating- "This is what you get when you subscribe."


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## Xyxox (Feb 17, 2009)

Holy deja vu!



> Wizards of the Coast, Inc. to Release Dungeons & Dragons E-Tools: Character and Monster Generator
> 
> May 21, 2002 (Renton, Wash) -- Wizards of the Coast Inc., a developer and publisher of game-based entertainment products, and a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. (NYSE:HAS), today announced plans to release the Dungeons & Dragons E-Tools: Character and Monster Generator (D&D E-Tools) in July of 2002. D&D E-Tools will give Dungeon Masters and game enthusiasts more control over their own campaigns with the ability to track multiple players and create characters, monsters and treasures in accordance with D&D rules.
> The D&D E-Tools CD-ROM, originally announced as D&D Master Tools, is an essential tool for Dungeon Masters to generate characters, monsters, treasures, and encounters which can be cataloged for easy and quick reference. This software accessory will offer Dungeon Masters and gamers an extensive database and the chance to prepare multiple stats for characters and nonplayer characters (NPC). D&D E-Tools will have an advanced and comprehensive character and monster generator and valuable other options, such as a treasure generator but will not incorporate the mapper function that was to be included in the Master Tools software suite.
> “The mapper function originally slated for this product was removed because we felt it was not as useful for a paper-based roleplaying game as originally thought,” said Peter Kim, associate business manager for roleplaying games at Wizards of the Coast. “We were able to create a very practical software tool for Dungeon Masters and gamers alike that will enhance their roleplaying experiences.”


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## Hawke (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm looking forward to visualizer.... it was originally the "first out" so I assumed they had it all ready to go. Wasn't a demo running at one of the conventions last year?


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## SlyFlourish (Feb 18, 2009)

I always thought the Visualizer was a waste of time. Most players I know spend very little time dealing with their character's appearance - not nearly enough to warrant some sort of mini-MMO style character creation thing. I'm interested in just about everything Wizards produces for D&D but I had no interest in this at all. 

I was all about the character builder. With it out, I'd prefer they work on new templates or open it up to the community to create more templates. Get these fans working for you, Wizards!


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## Aristotle (Feb 18, 2009)

The visualizer was only so cool as it worked with the VTT, but then again... I've gotten over the 3D game table and really wish they'd just officially license (or buy) fantasy grounds with some additional rules integration as I think it better recreates the tabletop feel and allows for different levels of game automation without feeling like the game is being played for you.

Really... I'd much rather see the man hours for things like 3D game tables and character visualizers spent on something more immediately useful like a more robust template engine for the character sheets in the Character Designer, or working up a more fully fleshed out Encounter Generator that allows for the application of templates/items, printing out of modified stat blocks for whole encounters, and more.

I want a lot, and a lot of what I want is *so* doable. If only I had a say.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Feb 18, 2009)

As a side note, regarding what I said before.  I believe I got the information from a couple of different places.

One is a blog post made by someone(can't remember who) who went to PAX last year and wrote about his experiences with the Game Table and Visualizer as well as the answers he received.

One is the speech given to us by WOTC at DDXP in 2008.  They discussed their plans for the tools and some of the changes they had made from their original plans.

And the rest is pretty much reading the articles on DDI and some posts from the designers.  Oh, and guessing wildly.  But I like to think of it as "informed guessing wildly".  

As for the tools.  I, personally, got to play with the Visualizer at GenCon last year for a while.  It seemed to work fine and just appeared to be missing some art to be complete.  I was honestly expecting its release at the same time at the Character Builder.

It's probably worth noting that there is a button in the final version of the CB to launch the Visualizer.  I think it's still coming.  Probably soon.  I'm in agreement with the people who said they just didn't want to draw attention to the things they were late doing.


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## Plissken (Feb 18, 2009)

> The Visualizer is kinda useless without the Gametable. I doubt, however, that the Visualizer and Gametable have been cancelled. A lot of work has gone into both and they are close to being beta-ready, as people have played around with workable versions at various cons.



No.

I was at PAX. At the WoTC booth I asked one of the reps to demo it for me. After a few minutes the program crashed. The game table looks great but...the state that I saw it in, I could see that it was far from being finished.

Concerning software aesthetics, the game table is one of the worst programs I've seen. Tiny text, small buttons, ugly in-game character sheet, etc.

The character visualizer however looked it was in a near polished state. I got to play around with it. Cool, but I just don't like the waxy character look. However, as has been said, without the game table it is pretty useless.


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## Mercule (Feb 18, 2009)

mshea said:


> I always thought the Visualizer was a waste of time. Most players I know spend very little time dealing with their character's appearance - not nearly enough to warrant some sort of mini-MMO style character creation thing. I'm interested in just about everything Wizards produces for D&D but I had no interest in this at all.



I said this in another thread, but it's more topical here:

My biggest concern/issue with the value of the CV is that the output will look computer generated.  Anyone capable of doing photo-realistic (or even paint/sketch quality), customizable artwork on a computer would be much better employed at ILM or the like.  IMO, if you can tell it came from a computer, it's a total mood-killer for fantasy gaming and I'd rather not have a picture at all.  For as great as they are, even Pixar doesn't produce images of a quality that I'd want on my character sheet -- granted, they're supposed to be cartoony.  Most of the CG in the Star Wars films (think Yoda) would be fine, but then we're back to why aren't the artists working at ILM.

That, of course, is just my opinion.  I'm sure there are some people who think Pink is great background music for D&D, too, but I just don't see it.


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## tylerthehobo (Feb 18, 2009)

Myself, I still prefer stick figures with beards like I used to draw on my character sheets in high school...


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## Fenes (Feb 18, 2009)

I do my character pictures with Daz Studio, and a CV that doesn't equal those options is of no use to me.


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## Verys Arkon (Feb 18, 2009)

I can't draw.  Period.  

I used Neverwinter Nights 2 to create characters and then take screen captures of them for my character portraits.  But I'd rather have the Visualizer.  If it is as close to being finished as people are saying it is, then I'd rather they finish it up and release it.  

As a counter point to some of those above, the Visualizer is the DDI piece some of my players are looking forward to the most, and couldn't care less about the VTT.  I guess the relative value of different components of DDI depends if you are already playing in a face-to-face game or not.


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## Zaruthustran (Feb 18, 2009)

I wonder why no one's made a mod based on an existing, finished full-featured character visualizer, such as that which can be found in Oblivion or Mount & Blade. Seems like you can simply add a screen-cap & print utility, and you'd be done.


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## exile (Feb 19, 2009)

I bought an art student from the local community college to do my character sketches...but I'd love to see the CV up an drunning, as it's probably more reliable than she is.

Chad


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## FireLance (Feb 19, 2009)

exile said:


> I bought an art student from the local community college to do my character sketches...but I'd love to see the CV up an drunning, as it's probably more reliable than she is.



So many jokes ... none of them appropriate.


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## armorclass10 (Feb 19, 2009)

I could care less about the CV myself. But the Game Table was something I was into when I upgraded. I DM a regular group but was hoping to play online at my leisure, I know nothing is definite but broken promises would be rather disappointing to me now. I know I can get FG VTT but I would love to see  VTT done by the owners of D&D. It's really just getting the right people to make it IMO.


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## Hawke (Feb 19, 2009)

People mention the fact that the Visualizer is worthless without the GameTable. Well... I've used MapTool for weekly games for the last two years and I'd love to see something I could quickly and easily generate some great looking characters for. Especially if I can rotate the camera top-down and utilize a top down token combined with the portraits in maptool. 

As neat as GT might sound, I'm not sure I can get my current group to ALL sign up for DDI at a higher price. As it stands many still enjoy doing their characters by hand. Until DDI is stable, fully featured, and provides enough content to be a major contender, I doubt I'll switch away from MapTool. Until then... Character Visualizer will be a great help. 

I absolutely understand my opinion will likely be different than many others. I accept that. I'm okay that many don't really want the CV. It's just that I do


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## keterys (Feb 19, 2009)

Especially as a pay service, I think it makes sense for them to remove mention of things that do not exist and might not exist for some time.

I'll admit that I did expect the Visualizer sooner rather than later, myself... and Game Table... I hoped end of year, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Maptool is pretty darn awesome in the meantime.


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## Dire Bare (Feb 19, 2009)

exile said:


> I bought an art student from the local community college to do my character sketches...but I'd love to see the CV up an drunning, as it's probably more reliable than she is.
> 
> Chad




You bought an art student?  Is that even legal?  How much do they go for?


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## Fallen Seraph (Feb 19, 2009)

While I can draw fairly well, for myself I would still like the CV. It would be useful for when I cannot illustrate properly what is in my mind and thus having a image constructed to use as a base can help get past this.

For those that are wary of it because of its appearance. While not a perfect fit, try taking the image into something like Photoshop it is fairly easy to change the style of a image to emulate a different medium.

What I am wondering is if/when it comes out how will they keep up with new options? It isn't as simple as putting in data like the CB or Compendium, so how would they handle new weapons, new races, etc.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Feb 20, 2009)

Eh, has the _Game Table_ *really *been cancelled? Bloody well hope not!


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## elawai (Feb 20, 2009)

*Could Updating be the Issue?*

Could one of the reasons for the supposed cancellation of the CV and Game Table be the updating of art as new supplements come out?  When the Character Builder is updated, it is mostly pure data being entered.  If the CV and GT needed updating, you would have to add more art resources - new forms for races, new types of terrain, etc.   Adding new art resources sounds very time intensive.


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## Kain Darkwind (Jan 18, 2011)

So ah....

How do these products look today?


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## pukunui (Jan 18, 2011)

Kain Darkwind said:


> So ah....
> 
> How do these products look today?



I think the visualizer got canned some time ago, but they're now doing a closed beta of the VTT ... in a vastly reduced form (it's now a basic 2D sort of thing with tokens rather than a fancy 3D table with virtual minis). See here


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## Keefe the Thief (Jan 18, 2011)

Youp, me and many others are in the VTT beta. The visualizer is in ugly-software-stuff-heaven, or perhaps in i-hate-poser-purgatory, where it belongs.


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## Sorrowdusk (Jan 18, 2011)

wedgeski said:


> I can see the visualiser still being useful without the game table (import image of your PC onto your Character Builder sheet, for example). What we've seen of it suggested it was pretty far along, but if the game table is in doubt then a decision may have been made that the need to constantly add new art assets to the program as more and more splat books were released is just not worth the money.
> 
> I hope neither have been cancelled, and that the web site has been purged only because two constantly greyed-out boxes on the DDI page was becoming something of an embarrasment.




And it looked so promising

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfSYJDge4Fs]YouTube - D&D Insider Character Visualizer[/ame]


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## Aberzanzorax (Jan 18, 2011)

I think it's sad.

4e was in development for 3 years (if I recall correctly). They announced VTT would be out with 4e's release.


Now, I remember, they got screwed. 

They had contracted a software firm to make it, and the firm failed to deliver. That sucks that such a thing happened.



BUT it's now been 2.5 years since the books for 4e were released (with ads for VTT in the back, no less). WotC has had nearly the same amount of time (or more, who knows?) to create a VTT...and _it's still not done_.

...and was delayed AGAIN today.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/299880-dungeons-dragons-insider-1-18-update-delayed.html

Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

Sad.


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## shadzar (Jan 18, 2011)

pukunui said:


> I think the visualizer got canned some time ago, but they're now doing a closed beta of the VTT ... in a vastly reduced form (it's now a basic 2D sort of thing with tokens rather than a fancy 3D table with virtual minis). See here



fixed your link for you. And it looks pretty pathetic, to take so long to get to that point. It is the same as every other VTT, except it does D&D 4th edition?


Sorrowdusk said:


> And it looked so promising
> 
> YouTube - D&D Insider Character Visualizer




Just your standard gaming character designer video games have had for years.

These are the directions they both should have taken from the beginning. A simple program to make a character image for your character sheet, or you could play with to make a character, and a top-down game surface just like a tabletop, that you can play on.

All that camera angle junk and isometric view was silly and a waste of time if you are not making a fully developed game like NWN.

If the VTT doesn't handle rules, then it would be pointless to have behind the paywall of DDi, since it offers nothing over any of the free ones out there, except for proprietary graphics, such as Dungeon Tiles.


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## Argyle King (Jan 18, 2011)

mshea said:


> I always thought the Visualizer was a waste of time. Most players I know spend very little time dealing with their character's appearance - not nearly enough to warrant some sort of mini-MMO style character creation thing. I'm interested in just about everything Wizards produces for D&D but I had no interest in this at all.
> 
> I was all about the character builder. With it out, I'd prefer they work on new templates or open it up to the community to create more templates. Get these fans working for you, Wizards!





Odd; most of the people I game with would probably say the exact opposite.  Most of them have an easier time putting together the crunch aspects of their characters than they do drawing their characters.  



Zaruthustran said:


> I wonder why no one's made a mod based on an existing, finished full-featured character visualizer, such as that which can be found in Oblivion or Mount & Blade. Seems like you can simply add a screen-cap & print utility, and you'd be done.




I've asked a similar question elsewhere.  A lot of games have amazing character creation tools.  Even console games do; the create a wrestler utility for the WWE games is amazing.  A friend of mine has created Elmo, Superman, and Beavis & Butthead as wrestlers, and they look very accurate.  Somewhere on youtube is a video showing a guy who created all of the Street Fighter characters.

My knowledge of programming is virtually zero; however, it seems as though it would be possible to look at how those utilities work and model something on the same concepts.  Without needing the rest of the game they are attached to, you could -in theory- I think use the extra space to include more options such as swords, armor, races, etc.


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## pukunui (Jan 19, 2011)

shadzar said:


> fixed your link for you.



Thanks. I was missing the last " in the URL tag.



> And it looks pretty pathetic, to take so long to get to that point. It is the same as every other VTT, except it does D&D 4th edition?



I know. I really liked the look of the original VTT ... it looked like an actual computer game, with "fog of war" and stuff like that. 



> All that camera angle junk and isometric view was silly and a waste of time if you are not making a fully developed game like NWN.



When 4e first came out, I used the character visualizer from NWN 2 to "visualize" some of my initial characters. I don't see why WotC couldn't just take the NWN software and use that?


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## shadzar (Jan 19, 2011)

pukunui said:


> Thanks. I was missing the last " in the URL tag.
> 
> I know. I really liked the look of the original VTT ... it looked like an actual computer game, with "fog of war" and stuff like that.
> 
> When 4e first came out, I used the character visualizer from NWN 2 to "visualize" some of my initial characters. I don't see why WotC couldn't just take the NWN software and use that?




We would have to have that Danny(something) that is a lawyer to give thoughts, but AFAIK, WotC owns NWN as well as D&D, but Atari or Infogrammes, or whoever, owns the code to the game. So even when the rights revert back to WotC/HASBRO, the code for that/those visualizers form the NWN games, will belong to Atari. They may not be able to use that code again even with different images, or might not even be allowed to since it was used in a licensed title.

Also since Atari owns the rights to video games for D&D (until 2017? 2015?), WotC might not be allowed to make things that look like a video game and be confused as one, so might have caused problems for them going forward with any of the plans had for the VC or VTT. Which is funny, if they didnt attack fans for fan made things like character sheets, or tools, then maybe they would have gotten fan support enough to let WotC make its VTT and VC resemble a video game more, so that Atari wasnt made to look like a bad guy from fans with signed affadavids stating that the VTT and VC are not confusable with an actual video game. But you know...bite the hand that feeds you and you have to deal with the wound until it heals.


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## Hussar (Jan 19, 2011)

Just a couple of points about the WOTC VTT.  There are currenlty a few bells and whistles that existing VTT's don't have - the primary being built in VOiP.  No more fiddling around with Skype or Vent or what have you to chat with your fellow gamers.  Plus it does come with "voice skins" for the DM to use to change his/her voice.  Which is nice.

Other than that, it's pretty much stock standard for VTT's.  Nothing paricularly earth shattering.  Now, if they can integrate it with the character builder and the monster builder, then I'd be all over it.  Not having to stat up tokens and having token that automatically come with macros would drop prep time to almost zero.  Pull up a map, drag and drop monsters on it and you just made a dungeon.  That would be very nice.


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## shadzar (Jan 19, 2011)

Hussar said:


> Just a couple of points about the WOTC VTT.  There are currenlty a few bells and whistles that existing VTT's don't have - the primary being built in VOiP.  No more fiddling around with Skype or Vent or what have you to chat with your fellow gamers.  Plus it does come with "voice skins" for the DM to use to change his/her voice.  Which is nice.




The silliness of a voice changer aside, which most other places find an annoyance, rather than a benefit; does it have a language lobby?

Granted you could end up in a game where everyone is typing in a language you don't understand, but if the routine things were done for you, attacks calculated, etc it wouldn't matter "much" as you could squeak through it. But if you are required to hear the DM and they aren't speaking a language you speak, it could be a lot of trouble entering a game and leaving.

So what kind of lobby exists and does it have that choice to set the language as ability to communicate is a high requirement for these types of games?


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## Sorrowdusk (Jan 19, 2011)

You know to be honest, I never even thought about playing with people who speak other languages, but I guess that would be a possibility. I can certainly play with other people who dont speak english very well, or sometimes not at al in DDO. There's a french guild I've rolled with a few times, and other than ther GL, none of them speak english.


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## Dausuul (Jan 19, 2011)

Aberzanzorax said:


> BUT it's now been 2.5 years since the books for 4e were released (with ads for VTT in the back, no less). WotC has had nearly the same amount of time (or more, who knows?) to create a VTT...and _it's still not done_.
> 
> ...and was delayed AGAIN today.




As I understand it, the whole Gleemax thing was a complete fiasco, and WotC bears a large part of the blame for providing inadequate and inconsistent direction to their contractors--there's a reason the phrase "garbage in, garbage out" was invented in the software biz, and it applies to development teams as much as to actual computers. A ludicrous amount of money was wasted on it, to the point that Hasbro descended from on high in wrath. I suspect that WotC's electronic division got put on a very tight leash and a lean budget after that.


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## Hussar (Jan 19, 2011)

shadzar said:


> The silliness of a voice changer aside, which most other places find an annoyance, rather than a benefit; does it have a language lobby?
> 
> Granted you could end up in a game where everyone is typing in a language you don't understand, but if the routine things were done for you, attacks calculated, etc it wouldn't matter "much" as you could squeak through it. But if you are required to hear the DM and they aren't speaking a language you speak, it could be a lot of trouble entering a game and leaving.
> 
> So what kind of lobby exists and does it have that choice to set the language as ability to communicate is a high requirement for these types of games?




I honestly don't know.  I've never used the program, so I can't answer that. 

Would be a great idea.  Usually in any VTT program lobby I've seen, people tend to have passwords on their rooms and then invite people from various parts of the internet - forums, that sort of thing.  So, I imagine that it's fairly self policing.  I'm pretty sure that the WOTC system is the same - so it's unlikely you can just walk into a game without some sort of introduction first.

People do leave the door open when they're recruiting, but, it's typically pretty rare for rooms to be open when the actual game is going on.  At least in my experience.


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## shadzar (Jan 19, 2011)

Thanks Hussar, thought you had used it. Guess it will be where people have to wait until the beta is open to see if such problems or concerns arise, then they have to go back and develop something for language arbitration to "match" players.



Sorrowdusk said:


> You know to be honest, I never even thought about playing with people who speak other languages, but I guess that would be a possibility. I can certainly play with other people who dont speak english very well, or sometimes not at al in DDO. There's a french guild I've rolled with a few times, and other than ther GL, none of them speak english.




It can easily be done with an MMO because most times you dont need to say anything and can just button mash. Even MtG you could play an online game without even talking and the game takes care of all the things for you.

If the VTT does nothing for you though and since D&D you have to pay attention to the DM, unless playing scripted adventures where the DM can send players a pop-up of the descriptions where the system can give you the proper language, then there could easily be problems with language barriers. That is why many places have, at least, a drop-down list to select your language form so others can see, but it doesnt prevent people from lying and wasting other peopels time, unless they will use VOiP to have you say something like a sentence to force set your language so you cant choose it, but can still play in other games if you want to, so people don't lie about their language.

If not having non-english speaker acoed for, then what is the point of website that anyone in the world can use, and why mis the ability for those non-english speaker to become involved and lose their money, I they banking bit has even been figured out where people outside the US can even subscribe to DDi?


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## Shemeska (Jan 19, 2011)

Dausuul said:


> As I understand it, the whole Gleemax thing was a complete fiasco, and WotC bears a large part of the blame for providing inadequate and inconsistent direction to their contractors--there's a reason the phrase "garbage in, garbage out" was invented in the software biz, and it applies to development teams as much as to actual computers. A ludicrous amount of money was wasted on it, to the point that Hasbro descended from on high in wrath. I suspect that WotC's electronic division got put on a very tight leash and a lean budget after that.




Absolutely this.


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## Hussar (Jan 19, 2011)

But, Shadzar, non-English speaking gamers would do the exact same thing as English speaking gamers - go to forums in their own language and look for games.

Think of it like a massive, ongoing convention.  At a con, sure there are pick up games where you can sit down and play, but, most games require you to register beforehand.  This is no different.  It's not like an MMO where, if you're like me, your schedule forces you to play on the Japanese servers where no one speaks English.

I don't think most people log onto the VTT as their primary source for finding games.  They're likely going to go to the website dedicated to games using that VTT (or any VTT for that matter) and then look for games.  And, really, it's not going to be a big surprise when someone sits down and doesn't speak the language - they're going to know in about 10 seconds.  Heck, the room title often gives it away.  If your room title is in Chinese characters, and everyone is typing in Hiragana, it's probably not a Native English speaking room.  

Considering how social D&D is, I couldn't imagine trying to play it with people who can't understand me.  I have enough trouble being understood in my own language.


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## shadzar (Jan 20, 2011)

Hussar said:


> But, Shadzar, non-English speaking gamers would do the exact same thing as English speaking gamers - go to forums in their own language and look for games.
> 
> Think of it like a massive, ongoing convention.  At a con, sure there are pick up games where you can sit down and play, but, most games require you to register beforehand.  This is no different.  It's not like an MMO where, if you're like me, your schedule forces you to play on the Japanese servers where no one speaks English.
> 
> ...




 Why am I going to a forum to find players? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing on a VTT where you can find pick-up games? What is the point to being housed online, if it cannot have a way to connect like a lobby to find gamers. MtGO has a lobby with actual tables you click on.

So if everyone is typing in Katakana, then they are Native English speakers? 

Now I must seriously ask you this question, before I can respond to other parts of your post. How much of a multiplayer computer gamer are you?

OpenRPG, MapTools, I think even that pay one KludgeWorks offers a sort of lobby, as do most things to connect people to play, so why wouldn't there be a place to meet new people within the software itself.

If you have to jump to the WotC forums to find a game that is just silly, even NWN used the WON Network I think where you connected to a server and were presented with a list of games, PWs, etc to join; and MtGO has a lobby to just play with however, but granted it is a different type of game requiring only 2 people and lasting les time than D&D would.

Many people NOT knowing anyone to play with is where the VTTs shine if they can provide the ability to meet new people and play that have the same type of schedule as them, because they met them at 2am Tuesday night, odds are they have that time free to game, so scheduling conflicts would be few and far between, and that is a big obtsacle for TTRPGs, that VTTRPGs would easily overcome.


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## Hussar (Jan 20, 2011)

shadzar said:


> Why am I going to a forum to find players? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing on a VTT where you can find pick-up games? What is the point to being housed online, if it cannot have a way to connect like a lobby to find gamers. MtGO has a lobby with actual tables you click on.
> 
> So if everyone is typing in Katakana, then they are Native English speakers?
> 
> ...




Sure, you can go into the lobby to find games.  However, most games have closed doors since they aren't specifically looking for new players.  As I said, some people recruit directly from the lobby, but, most people recruit from a forum.

Comparisons to MMO's really break down here.  Playing on a VTT has very little in common with an MMO.  Unless a DM is actively recruiting or running a one shot, why would he leave the door open for new players.  If he is running a one shot, people come in, he gets enough people to play and then closes the door to stop interruptions.  

It would be very strange to come in in the middle of play and sit down.  Which you can do with an MMO but, would be the same as walking into your FLGS, plunking yourself down at the table with an ongoing game in progress and expecting to play.

It's far more likely someone would go to the WOTC site, go to the forums and see what's being advertised.  A quick search usually will turn up posts with the appropriate time slot.

Playing in a VTT game is not really all that different from playing in a regular face to face game.  You have to build the group, get everyone bought into the system and the game, all the good stuff that happens around your kitchen table (or where ever you play).


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## shadzar (Jan 20, 2011)

Hussar said:


> Sure, you can go into the lobby to find games.  However, most games have closed doors since they aren't specifically looking for new players.  As I said, some people recruit directly from the lobby, but, most people recruit from a forum.
> 
> Comparisons to MMO's really break down here.  Playing on a VTT has very little in common with an MMO.  Unless a DM is actively recruiting or running a one shot, why would he leave the door open for new players.  If he is running a one shot, people come in, he gets enough people to play and then closes the door to stop interruptions.
> 
> ...




Sure many may meet elsewhere and decide to game at Time X, but there are probably people that will just appear.

Having a spectator option would let people see if they want to use the VTT, or if they want to join a game by being able to see how the group plays.



> Playing in a VTT game is not really all that different from playing in a regular face to face game.  You have to build the group, get everyone bought into the system and the game, all the good stuff that happens around your kitchen table (or where ever you play).



We all wish it was that simple, but since this is the internet, and being able to game with anyone, the building a group first, sort of defeats the purpose of the VTT, where you can find people to play with. You need to be able to meet with new people to play since oyu might not have a group to begin with. Also one of the big advantages to a VTT that you don't always have to have a planned group.

While the size may be that of a convention, there is more of a game store feel to it, where you don't really get to choose your entire group beforehand, but can find tables with an empty seat and sit down to play, much as you can any online poker game.

You have the DMs game descriptions so can join if those interest you and start working things out, or come with a character for the DM to approve if they have any restrictions, and start playing with the random group of people, much like a games day.

Well you had to register for them, but players weren't assigned to tables first, but more like a MtG tournament, after everyone was ready people were randomly seated.

There needs to be that option to play with random strangers for the VTT to fully achieve its potential.

Some might use it so they dont have to drive to play at one person's kitchen table, but others will love the ability to grab a one-shot with random people, when they don't have a game, but have that gaming itch, much like most online games where you join a group of people and play, Halo, CoD, whatever.


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## Hussar (Jan 20, 2011)

Shadzar - your comparisons all fail to take into account the realities of actually playing an RPG.  In a poker event, you might have to wait until the current hand is finished to join a game - by and large a matter of minutes and each hand is a distinct event.  Even MtG tournaments don't really work, since you aren't playing a single MtG game for four hours.

Imagine trying to fit in someone who sits at your table, a complete stranger, two hours into the fifteenth session of your ongoing game.  It's just not going to happen.  Heck, even in a one shot, you're not going to add a player two hours in.  You gather the group first, get your requisite number of players and off you go to play.

Would work nicely for Living events I think.  Living DM steps into the lobby says, "I need five players with Living characters level X to do Adventure Y".  But, after he's got those five players, he's not likely to accept any more.

Spectators are fine, so long as they can't post to the chat.  In OpenRPG and Maptool you can't really prevent a user from posting to chat once they're inside, so, perhaps some sort of control there would be groovy.  But, then again, I'm not sure how many people want to silently spectate on a game.  Depends who's playing I suppose.

Sure, the DM can put a game description on his room in the lobby, including restrictions, but, once he's got his X players, that room is going to be full and most likely closes.

The best anology I can think of is honestly convention play.  You sign up for the convention (get a DDI account) take a look at the list of games on offer before the con (go to the forum(s) and find a group) and then show up on the pre-arranged day and start playing.

You're talking about one shot pick up games which I'm sure people will do.  But, for an ongoing campaign, you're likely going to need at the very least a thread on a forum somewhere to keep track of things.  Better still, create a forum (proboards is good for this as are the various wiki resources) and you have your own little corner of the internet to work from.

I think the idea that you boot up the DDI, just like you would a FPS like Halo, join a server and start playing is not how VTT play is ever going to work.


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## shadzar (Jan 20, 2011)

Ignoring all the rest, you are saying there is no record you can copy and paste or save from the games text chat, so you have to go to a forum to actually be able to talk unless using VOiP??

Seems this VTT is deficient on so many levels, what benefit could it really offer anyone?


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## Keefe the Thief (Jan 20, 2011)

It's a pretty cool VTT for playing D&D online with friends? I mean, it also seems effective at making you pretty agitated, but i doubt this is a planned design feature.


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## Hussar (Jan 20, 2011)

shadzar said:


> Ignoring all the rest, you are saying there is no record you can copy and paste or save from the games text chat, so you have to go to a forum to actually be able to talk unless using VOiP??
> 
> Seems this VTT is deficient on so many levels, what benefit could it really offer anyone?




Huh?

I'm not sure about the WOTC VTT, but, Maptools and Open both automatically save the text chat.  So, we post our transcripts after each session.  But, those transcripts are housed on our own forums.  I'm not sure how you'd go about making that available to people who are not in the chat room.  It would be like being able to eavesdrop on an MSN chat conversation.  I have no idea how you'd do that.  Nor would I want to really.  

I'm not sure what you're looking for.  You want to be able to spectate on games?  I suppose that's possible.  Not sure why though.  What's the problem with going on the WOTC boards to look for a gaming group?

Are you thinking that a VTT is an actual game?


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## Kafen (Jan 20, 2011)

Hussar said:


> You're talking about one shot pick up games which I'm sure people will do.  But, for an ongoing campaign, you're likely going to need at the very least a thread on a forum somewhere to keep track of things.  Better still, create a forum (proboards is good for this as are the various wiki resources) and you have your own little corner of the internet to work from.




Good point... For campaigns, it is virtually required to have a place where both  players and the GM are able to compare notes, chat, and work out the long term details in posting format. It is true of games dating all the way back to the Conan snail mail games - logistics.  The forums serve as a third party that stores your data which takes the stress of storing your game data for many online players.

Mind you, I advocate frequent backups with modern media. Dropbox is an awesome backup if you have the log files. 

===============================

Another benefit to forums in conjunction with VTT is community integrity. As long as the forum community chats, blogs, bickers, and has fun with each other in the forum, the VTT community is going to be an extension of the forum community which offers a solid core of users to both services. 

Also, it serves as a backup meeting place for people to meet if the VTT lobby or network is not working - a common issue. With Windows 7, the 'home' and secure networks hosting issue appears quite a bit. It takes some tech work and link trading to get some people on the same VTT.

Forums offer all of these services to the VTT community. It's the virtual world as we know it, today. Heck, even most VoiP hang out groups use forums as a secondary system in case the chat line goes down.

...and as a sidenote, usenet functions in much the same way for people that hate forums. There are many aging gamers all over the world that still use usenet to talk DND. VoiP, VTT, bloggers, twitter posters, and forum gamers miss out on quite a bit.


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## shadzar (Jan 20, 2011)

Hussar said:


> Huh?
> 
> I'm not sure about the WOTC VTT, but, Maptools and Open both automatically save the text chat.  So, we post our transcripts after each session.  But, those transcripts are housed on our own forums.  I'm not sure how you'd go about making that available to people who are not in the chat room.  It would be like being able to eavesdrop on an MSN chat conversation.  I have no idea how you'd do that.  Nor would I want to really.
> 
> ...



You said that you had to use forums to schedule a game, I said once you find a group to play with, that could be done in the VTT, and you could copy and paste into a text file to look at later. No need for forums, so that people could just meet and play with new people.

I was asking if the WotC VTT somehow didn't let you copy/paste the text chat or didn't have a text chat because of VOiP that would allow this.

I am thinking the D&D VTT is a joke, but that is beside the point.

I know what MapTools and OpenRPG both do, and they have the same failings for running a D&D game that NWN has where you have to script stuff out in some convoluted method.

I also wasn't talking about eavesdropping, but like the poker example you missed the point of, people could come in to a game that was running a sesion, but looking for players and watch rather than rely on the description to see if the game AND the players oof it meet their tastes to join and actually play as opposed to jsut watching.

Sure like the poker games you may have to wait until the proper time to actually join, but also like them you don't like the way the table is running, you don't join that table. Everyone going All-in all the time, and people just cracking "yo momma" jokes; you don't have to join that game, but can watch a little before joining to find out.

That is why the function of the spectator view was added to many games where people join others to watch.


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## Hussar (Jan 21, 2011)

Ah, now I understand.  I'm just not sure how you expect to find the group over the VTT?  I suppose some hopefuls might hang out in the lobby asking for players but, ew yuck.  No thanks.  I have a rather lengthy chat sessions and emails back and forth for a while before allowing new players into an ongoing game.  I've had way too many bad experiences to just have open casting calls anymore.

Not sure if the WOTC VTT allows you to save the chat log.  I imagine, at worst, you could cut and paste it.  Don't see why you couldn't.  In our VTT games, we actually record our speach as well - so nothing really gets lost.  I don't think the WOTC VTT has this option currently and since the chat program is built into the table, I have no idea how hard that would be to add.  There are numerous programs that will record from your speaker inputs though, so, I can't imagine you couldn't work around it.

As far as scripting stuff out goes.  Well, there is some of that.  Mostly it's similar to writing out stat blocks for your monsters in a tabletop game.  I would point out that you certainly don't have to do it.  You can just die roll and type as you go.  It just makes the game run a whole lot smoother if you do the work beforehand.

And, of course, the maps look a lot prettier if you put the effort in.  

I have pretty much zero scripting skills.  I just use the tools given.  I would assume that somewhere down the line, WOTC will integrate the tools so that you will be able to drag and drop monsters from the monster builder to the VTT, which will be a HUGE bonus.  I'd be very surprised if we don't see that before the beta is wrapped up.

My big question with the WOTC VTT is whether or not it will remain behind the paywall.  I hope that it doesn't.  That you'll be able to use the basic VTT - no rules inclusions - for free and then when you join the DDI you get access to the integrated tools.  We'll have to see on that one.


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## shadzar (Jan 21, 2011)

Hussar said:


> Ah, now I understand.  I'm just not sure how you expect to find the group over the VTT?  I suppose some hopefuls might hang out in the lobby asking for players but, ew yuck.  No thanks.  I have a rather lengthy chat sessions and emails back and forth for a while before allowing new players into an ongoing game.  I've had way too many bad experiences to just have open casting calls anymore.




As dumb as they are, they will likely place it behind the paywall, so you have to have a DDi to use it for all cases. Which would defeat the purpose of people with books, but nobody to play with, so why would someone buy the books or look in 4th editions direction, if they have no chance to play it.

NWN installs, and then you can play the crappy CRPG adventure, but also you can play with other people. To find those people you go into a lobby, and read some info on the game, see what language it is, how many people are allowed into it, etc.

NWN should have MUCH more procesor overhead for it with its 3D visualization, but could run with MANY more players than you should a TTRPG.

Like that is how you would find a group.

Say you can only be on during certain hours of the day to play due to working 2nd shift. Well odds are right away you will be on and see others on that may have similar schedules to yours and similar playing times available. BIGGEST obstacle to playing TTRPGs already taken care of. You can find people with the same schedule and more access to more people, but you don't have to drive for hours to play.

That is ALSO the biggest advantage to a VTT that a normal tabletop. So if not offering the ability to meet new people that have time to play when you do, what real point is it to use D&D VTT, as opposed to any of the others, if you have to meet them somewhere else? Especially if you have to be a DDi subscriber to use it.

World Opponent Network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia this is basically the type of thing that these lobbies serve as.


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## Sorrowdusk (Jan 21, 2011)

shadzar said:


> Why am I going to a forum to find players? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing on a VTT where you can find pick-up games? What is the point to being housed online, if it cannot have a way to connect like a lobby to find gamers. MtGO has a lobby with actual tables you click on.
> 
> So if everyone is typing in Katakana, then they are Native English speakers?
> 
> ...




Think of it this way-I'm in two games right now in IRC. IRC was the medium for me to _play _the game, but not to _find_ it.


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## shadzar (Jan 21, 2011)

Sorrowdusk said:


> Think of it this way-I'm in two games right now in IRC. IRC was the medium for me to _play _the game, but not to _find_ it.




Wrong way to think about it. You may have had IRC before, or may have gotten it to play with.

D&D VTT wil be there on DDi. Like an MMO, you install the software and use it to connect to other people. DDi may have a LOT less to install, but same thing. Now for ease of use, most do away with making you learn your IP and trying to connect via direct IP connection, but WANT you to use their servers to connect. This will allow VTT behind a paywall, as well nothing to download but running from the java applet, to be controlled by the company, as well a give people a bigger chance to connect with people without having to know their IP, someone else's IP, where to use that, etc. Like IRC you need to know which server to go to, MMOs do that too, but unlike IRC, there isn't a need for different servers to ahve a lobby.

I am really surprised some people don't get this. Maybe you aren't from the video game area and never really delved into it. Playstation, Microsoft, Nintendo (i think haven't used a Wii) all have some sort of player lobby for their games, whether it is subscription based like XBOX Live, or something free from the company that makes the game.

In order to capture the biggest portion of video gamers that might come over to D&D with the aid of this VTT, there needs to be something that resembles what they know to allow them to get into a game.

WotC forums are pretty much crap, so that is out.

Aside from persistent worlds, one of the big things when NWN first came out was that you could use it as a somewhat automated virtual table top, and it even did the dice rolling via the 3d fighting. With the exception of not having the feel of direct TTRPG, and of course not using 4th edition rules, but 3rd (I think), it is still the best VTT for D&D that would draw in video game players to compete with WoW, but actually play a more traditional PnP RPG. You can be there as a DM with a small party and run closed games, or have open ones.

The key thing is the lobby that lets you connect to people and have the ability to join games with people you don't know.

Anyone can use forums, or telephone or whatever to start, but MANY will jump right in to find people, and that lobby is a key component that will be needed. Even OpenRPG has/had a lobby where you could see servers running. You didn't ned to go to a website, when the software wa running it let you find games to join.

If D&D VTT can't offer that, then people might as well use OpenRPG with Skype for VOIP.


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## Hussar (Jan 23, 2011)

The problem Shadzar, is all of the examples you give don't exactly map to actual RPG play.  For most of the MMO games, everyone who gets on is playing exactly the same game.  If I'm playing WOW, for example, what's on the box is what I'm playing.

But, if I go into a VTT lobby, I might be playing D&D, or Pathfinder, or Savage Worlds, or some Indie game that has ten players worldwide.  

Sure, it will likely have some sort of chat lobby.  See OpenRPG for a good example of that.  Maptool actually lacks this and it probably should have one.  But, having played online for a long time, I can honestly say that bringing in players "off the street" so to speak without weeding out the jerks is a very, very bad idea.

When you jump on a video game lobby, you're likely only going to play with this group of people once and never again.  You might not, you might form a guild and whatnot, but, likely, it's a one off.

RPG's generally don't play that way.  

Now, the Living campaigns I can see absolutely thriving in this sort of set up.  This is tailor made for getting living campaigns off and running.  Imagine a permanent gaming con where you have DM's showing up regularly to run Living games.  All you'd need is a fairly small number of DM's (about 200 or so) and you'd have a game starting every hour of every day of the week.  Critical mass.

But, for a regular home game?  A VTT lobby is one place to form a group, but, honestly, seeing how it works now for existing VTT's - some of which have user bases in the small thousands, so they make good case studies - I don't think the majority of users will work that way.


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## shadzar (Jan 23, 2011)

You are missing the point and trying to think too much about MMOs and how they "play" and not listening, so I am done trying to explain it.


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## Umbran (Jan 23, 2011)

shadzar said:


> In order to capture the biggest portion of video gamers that might come over to D&D with the aid of this VTT, there needs to be something that resembles what they know to allow them to get into a game.




Unless, of course, the idea isn't to get the videogamers.  Given that playing D&D by the VTT is and will not be much like playing a videogame, it doesn't seem like a good market to aim at.

I am not expecting the VTT's primary use to be for "pick up" games between people ho don't know each other.  I expect it will be more for semi-organized groups who have other communication channels, and something like a set play schedules - they will have already set up a schedule by e-mail or the like, and not be worried about wandering around to find folks to play with in a lobby.


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## Hussar (Jan 24, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Unless, of course, the idea isn't to get the videogamers.  Given that playing D&D by the VTT is and will not be much like playing a videogame, it doesn't seem like a good market to aim at.
> 
> I am not expecting the VTT's primary use to be for "pick up" games between people ho don't know each other.  I expect it will be more for semi-organized groups who have other communication channels, and something like a set play schedules - they will have already set up a schedule by e-mail or the like, and not be worried about wandering around to find folks to play with in a lobby.




What Umbran just outlined is exactly how VTT's work now.  Sure, there are some pick up games, but, mostly, it's pre-scheduled events with the scheduling being done at another site.

For example, Shadzar, you mention that people might as well just use OpenRPG and Skype - but, again, people on OpenRPG don't find each other through OpenRPG, by and large.  Most groups are built on the OpenRPG forums (or other forums like Myth Weavers and the like) and use OpenRPG to play.

I'm really not sure why that would dramatically shift just because WOTC has a VTT.


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## shadzar (Jan 24, 2011)

Umbran said:


> I am not expecting the VTT's *primary* use to be for "pick up" games between people ho don't know each other.




Then there is your problem the same as many others. Injected words into things where they never existed to add your own meaning.

I never once said it would be the primary use, I am not trying to talk about which will be used greater. I just said, it is a needed function for people to be able to find other players form within the game. People still rambling on about crap they don't know about and I have explained over and over and pretty tired of it. Go spend a few thousand dollars on various types of online games and see just what they offer in terms of connecting you to other players.

Unless for some reason you are going to try to weasel out like the previous person did and try to claim there wouldn't be a lobby and somehow you magically connect to the other players in your game?

*There needs to be the ability of people joining games with people they do not know.* End of discussion, you can twist my words anyway you like to say I am saying something else, or try to discus something else, but it has nothing to do with that statement.

Again go look at NWN, it has a lobby, you can search the games list and find your predetermined game, or you can join one that has an open spot.

Such as it is in game stores, but the people looking for more players in a VTT are already online and waiting as opposed to reading a bulletin board, calling the DM etc and trying to find time to meet with them. They are online, there and waiting and would love to have you in the game NOW. It would be stupid for someone to deny that option from the VTT.

YOU and the other person may not need it, but to deny it to others, would be ignorant in design, loss of revenue, etc form those people without people to play with that may want to jsut sit down and play to get back into it. I think many people here have used forums too much that they rely on them to heavily as well their silly blogs/twitters/etc.

So when/if someone wants to actually discus what I am talking about as opposed to "but X doesn't have something like this", when X isnt the same as the VTT...better yet forget it. I am tired of explaining something to people that jsut refuse to listen and go off on their own tangents and not pay attention to what is being said.


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## Hussar (Jan 24, 2011)

... again, Shadzar, not sure where to go with this.

Does the WOTC VTT have a lobby function?  Dunno actually, you'd need to ask someone who's used it.  Should it have one?  Yeah, I'd agree with that.

Is there any other point you'd like to make?  Because, AFAIK, we agreed that there needed to be a lobby, like three pages ago.


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## shadzar (Jan 24, 2011)

Hussar said:


> ... again, Shadzar, not sure where to go with this.
> 
> Does the WOTC VTT have a lobby function?  Dunno actually, you'd need to ask someone who's used it.  Should it have one?  Yeah, I'd agree with that.
> 
> Is there any other point you'd like to make?  Because, AFAIK, we agreed that there needed to be a lobby, like three pages ago.




Well I am only on page 2 of this thread so....

My point was those people claiming that most groups are formed before the VTT is used as dismissing a great deal of players and potential the VTT could offer.

The best explanation I could give was about NWN, but people keep going on about it as a video game instead of JUST looking at the lobby functions.

You don't have a group to play with you CAN, sometimes with difficulty because of the games design, play a TTRPG D&D game on it. People DID use it as a VTT if they weren't interested in playing someones homemade video game via a persistent world.

I just tired of the comparing to a video game, while I am talking about the lobby aspect of how video games work. HOW you actually meet people you don't know to play games with.

The fact MANY people may wish to play, and IF the rules can be turned off, it only offers MORE potential to have the lobby able to allow new people to meet, rather than having only a system whereby already formed groups of people use it. IE: the pick up/one shot games, as well as stemming from them possibly making new groups.

This function could be BIG for those not having time to make a regularly scheduled game as they may not have regular schedules and be able to find people to play with when they have time, so they CAN play D&D, or play it again, if real life has caused them problems with being able to play.

It would be a disservice to the VTT, WotC, and players if it didn't have that ability.

We are just going in circles, as some think that people would not want to meet for the first time using a lobby, or seem to imply that I am saying that should be its primary function and use.


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## wedgeski (Jan 24, 2011)

I agree the VTT should have a lobby/chat room where people can converse and form ad-hoc groups. It's fundamental to the notion of online gaming in any form. There's no real reason why there shouldn't be a "Looking For Group" channel as well.

I'm also duly warned by those amongst who have experience running virtual games that pick-up players can be a nightmare. This is true of any co-operative online game though.


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