# Battle Royale of the Gawds continuation



## Dinkeldog (Feb 17, 2003)

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31151


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## Saepiroth (Feb 17, 2003)

SMELLS LIKE CONTINUITY

(ps: vraketh sux)


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## reapersaurus (Feb 17, 2003)

usually, nothing kills off (decreases activity) a gaming thread like starting a continuation thread. 

Let's make this one the exception.


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## Saepiroth (Feb 17, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *usually, nothing kills off (decreases activity) a gaming thread like starting a continuation thread.
> 
> Let's make this one the exception. *



 to insure this, i shall dance the night away.


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## Terraism (Feb 17, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> * to insure this, i shall dance the night away. *



Aye, brave Saepiroth, and I shall play Don Henley for you to dance to!


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## reapersaurus (Feb 17, 2003)

http://members.aol.com/essobmcc/brakbook/dancin/

get 'a down, get 'a funky, seap.

just a few friends to accompany you....


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## Victim (Feb 17, 2003)

KILL IT OFF!!  KILL IT OFF!!

Err, wait wrong target.


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## Dinkeldog (Feb 17, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *usually, nothing kills off (decreases activity) a gaming thread like starting a continuation thread.
> 
> Let's make this one the exception. *




Except perhaps the board crashing because a thread gets too long.


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## Hammerhead (Feb 17, 2003)

I don't think this thread was getting as long as Wulf's Story Hour.

Man, either no one's posting or some people are just sissies.


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## Saepiroth (Feb 17, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *http://members.aol.com/essobmcc/brakbook/dancin/
> 
> get 'a down, get 'a funky, seap.
> 
> just a few friends to accompany you.... *



 i have mk.mid and a great sea of monocle animations to accompany me.

a sample:


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 17, 2003)

yeah norman missed the deadline. I'm not letting the game slide, but RL issues are popping up, especially on long weekends.


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## Vychtorya (Feb 17, 2003)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> *Except perhaps the board crashing because a thread gets too long.  *



(this is reapersaurus)
I hadn't heard that the length of threads was an issue anymore?
Ever since the board's move, I don't remember it mentioned, but then again, I only rarely venture into Meta since the Hivemind sprang from its loins...


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## Saepiroth (Feb 17, 2003)

long threads are a problem everywhere. it's an inherent part of the tastic nature of vB. vBulletin may be the best solution around for forums, but that doesn't mean it's all that good.

heck, even with all the modifications loaded into the code over there, even the SA forums fall victim to long threads. just two weeks ago, some damnfool IK decided it would be the funniest thing ever to merge the entirety of a single forum into one thread that ended up with over 40,000 posts.

if you know much about how vB reads it's indexes, that should make you _cry_.


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## Number47 (Feb 17, 2003)

My connection at home is down, but I'm still here and still eagerly following the game.

BTW, Comcast sucks!


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 17, 2003)

One big note: Map02 is very old, as a few things aren't reflected yet:

1. Maturak picked up the wine glass on the bridge so he's over there

2. The obscuring mist has blown away thus no longer granting concealment to Jade


I'll reflect those changes next time somebody acts on map2


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## Saepiroth (Feb 17, 2003)

jesus, don't tell me that fingolfin/bhaal have dropped off, too!


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## Terraism (Feb 17, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> *jesus, don't tell me that fingolfin/bhaal have dropped off, too! *



I hope not.  I'll try to get ahold of him and see if he's still playing.


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## JDragon (Feb 17, 2003)

Well, I'm still here and ready to go. 

Just been at DunDraCon all weekend so I didn't respond to the interest level ? sooner.

JDragon

PS. DD can you put a link to this thread in the old one, so everyone following it via email will be able to get attached to this one?


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 18, 2003)

No, Fingolfin sent me a turn, I just went out fencing so it was me who was late.


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## Number47 (Feb 18, 2003)

Fencing? Clockworkjoe is a cat burglar!


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## Victim (Feb 18, 2003)

That might also explain where Norman Witherspoon is too.  From his hiding place, he Planeshifted here and is giving the DM fencing lessons in exchange for information on his foes.


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 18, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *That might also explain where Norman Witherspoon is too.  From his hiding place, he Planeshifted here and is giving the DM fencing lessons in exchange for information on his foes. *




Actually, I take lessons from the guy who wrote this book 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...104-6688578-3707916?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


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## Saepiroth (Feb 18, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, I take lessons from the guy who wrote this book
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...104-6688578-3707916?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 *



 plz don't stab me 2 ded kthxbye


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## reapersaurus (Feb 19, 2003)

just to confirm : clockwork, you got my move by email yesterday, and my ICQ today, right?

And that book was a good read, for the first part that was sampled on Amazon.


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 20, 2003)

About Jade's turn:

First and foremost, don't forget Jade has a -8 penalty on her diplomacy check due to energy drain. 

Zeus and the other gawds are not in the business of simply protecting one fighter over another. Thus asking for healing or other boons that only benefit a single character aren't going to happen most likely. That's boring and unfair to the other fighters.

Zeus thinks that Jade and Martok are moral equals in their fighting tactics. Martok's tricks are powerful but have countermeasures that players can be expected to get such as true seeing (whch you have) and a good reflex save (for the trees) while Jade uses powerful tricks with few if any countermeasures (Quest and horn of blasting). Furthermore, Zeus admires bravery in the face of difficulty and not someone begging him for help. If Zeus truly cared about Jade or Therron's well being, he wouldn't have teleported them into the Arena in the first place. 

If you wanted the gawds to give you special boons you should have taken the My gawd likes me advantage instead of the stand by me advantage. You will NOT have the benefits of two boons. 

If you're wondering about what type of boon the gods may grant to someone without the my gawd likes me advantage, here are some good examples:

"Teleport all the fighters on map1 or map2 to the other half and then destroy that half of the map so we may slaughter each other more quickly."

"Have the rain turn into acid rain"

"Turn the lake into molten magma."

"Open a gate to hell so I can throw my enemies into it."

Essentially, the gods are most likely to grant boons that screw everyone over equally or make the battle more dangerous and exciting.


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 20, 2003)

Also, I don't see why you're this angry about your turn.  I just didn't give you something no one else would get without using up their special advantage. I'm not even bothering with trying to figure out if you can actually fly or not with that all extra encumbrance.  Zeus didn't give you a restoration. that's it.


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## Victim (Feb 20, 2003)

Maturak's AMF is too wide on the y axis.  It should stick out 2 squares from his instead of 3.

Would asking for Jade to be stricken mute, except for the verbal components of her spells be okay?  Does she ever shut up?  She's been in the arena an entire *42 seconds*.  In that time, she's babbled hundreds words.  She's hasted, so I'm saying she can't talk that fast.  But imagine how annoying it would be to hear, especially without haste speeding your perceptions.


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## Terraism (Feb 20, 2003)

Just for reference, folks, I (Ancryx) sent in my move about 1:30 last night/this morning.  Just for those who're keeping tabs on who's still involved.


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## Saepiroth (Feb 20, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Would asking for Jade to be stricken mute, except for the verbal components of her spells be okay?  Does she ever shut up?  She's been in the arena an entire 42 seconds.  In that time, she's babbled hundreds words.  She's hasted, so I'm saying she can't talk that fast.  But imagine how annoying it would be to hear, especially without haste speeding your perceptions. *



 I think you might have something that you would want to ask the gods about on your next turn


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## reapersaurus (Feb 20, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *Also, I don't see why you're this angry about your turn.
> 
> Zeus didn't give you a restoration. that's it. *



You asked, so I'll answer as succintly as I can.

I'm angry because you are abusing your position, clockwork.
You are using the supposedly unbiased Gawds who you say are representatives of their alignments as instruments to get across your personal vendettas and biases.

That makes you look petty, and completely undercuts any facade of fairness you attempt to put up.
But that's been known for awhile, I guess.  
But before, you stopped at simply being biased in House Rulings.

Now you've gone too far - actually having "Zeus" ridicule Jade, in character?!
For simply trying to survive? Hell, the only reason I had he ask for a boon is because you yourself said that we could do so awhile back.
But it's not good enough for him to just say "No", he's got to make himself look dumb by misinterpreting what Quest can do, and punishing her _again_ for it.
Remember, he already nerfed Quest, causing her to be crippled right after. Now, he also uses something he *didn't allow* as the reasoning to not help her?

For you (it's obviously not any attempt at portraying "Zeus") to compare Jade to Martok is frankly disgusting.
Berk is freakishly obsessed with killing Jade.
Jade is simply trying to survive.
How you can't see the difference there is kind of strange.

I will thank you, though, for not cussing or being personally insulting in your responses on this thread.
And I think that's it's good that you now clarified what kinds of boons might have a likelihood of being granted.

But please stop saying that "Zeus thinks that Jade and Martok are moral equals."
That's YOU, clockwork, and everyone knows it.
I understand that you don't like my style of play, or me, and you made that quite clear to me before the Game even started when you stripped so many things from my character build and insulted me.

But that's cool, I understand - 
just stop trying to sugarcoat things, please.
Don't say it's Zeus when it's you, and please don't have Zeus make mistakes about how Quest works and use that as a reason to have him act against my characters.

And he not only didn't give Jade a Restoration (which would have been fine - I wasn't really expecting it, in hindsight) : "he" said "she" was begging, etc, and also prevented any other Gawds from having a problem with Martok's despicable actions (from other alignments' viewpoints).
You've already had other Gawd's help out some players.
You just had Zeus prevent the other Gawds from ever helping out Jade (not that I expected that to happen).

She did not get a 1 on the Diplomacy check, so he shouldn't have gotten a worse attitude towards her.
You also haven't punished Martok for being hated by the audience OR for violating Zeus' decree from the Quest (which by the rules he cannot ignore).
I did hope that you would be using your own guidelines for this Game to apply (that involving the crowd well would provide player benefits), but I guess those just won't apply when I do it successfully....   

Anyway - no hard feelings, and just use your own voice if you want to say things about the game. Don't put your personal words into Zeus' mouth. We're adults (I think) and should be able to tell the difference between players and characters.

Don't blame me if you read this far - I'm just replying to your direct question. I don't twist a knife and force anyone to read my posts. 
Please - if you don't like me talking about the Game, just ignore it.


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## reapersaurus (Feb 20, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Does she ever shut up? *



I guess I was suckered in by clockwork's offer that we could ask for boons earlier.

I won't make that mistake again, and so I probably won't be talking in character any more (unless it's really funny, or appropriate).

I'll try not to roleplay, and use the suggestions of the "DM" in the game.
I'll just post my actions, and not try to add any flavor to the Game.

I'll try to continue to send in my actions early, so that the Game is not slowed down by _my_ actions.
I request that everyone try to do that last part.


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## Victim (Feb 21, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *I guess I was suckered in by clockwork's offer that we could ask for boons earlier.
> 
> I won't make that mistake again, and so I probably won't be talking in character any more (unless it's really funny, or appropriate).
> 
> ...





I'm saying that you shouldn't roleplay.  I'm asking you to think about how much stuff your character is trying say.  A couple sentences is fine, even if it does stretch believability a bit.  However, it's stupid to spout entire paragraphs in 6 seconds.  Think about stuff like Sending and Suggestion and try to keep things down to around 25 or 30 words.  

Similarly, I think Diplomacy and such generally shouldn't be a option allowed in combat because it takes too long.  d20 Modern has Diplomacy as AT LEAST a full round action.  In spycraft, I think it takes 10 minutes.  It doesn't happen instantly.

Berk seems to be more about methodically killing Jade than obsessively killing her.  Reducing her saves by 8 is good start for any killing type magics.  And why stop now since he's halfway done?  Also, she's one of the few combatants with True Seeing up, and thus one of the most dangerous to him.  Of course, I think Berk is focusing on you because you said earlier that he didn't like.  So what?  

If Jade is simply trying to survive, then she should forfeit and ask for a Planeshift out.  It seems rather more likely that she's trying to buy time until Therron can show up and, with a little luck, shield bash Martok into bash.  

So far, the people helped by the gods seem to have been characters with that advantage.  You picked the cohort advantage.  Therefore, I'd say that it isn't very reasonable to expect to get advantages for just yourself.  Divine Intervention that affects all characters equally (or largely so) seems to the only thing characters without that advantage can receive.  Maybe you could ask for resources expended or lost in the battle so far be returned.  That'd be interesting.  Of course, I doubt it would happen, since the gods seem to be about increasing the speed of the battle, rather than making things take longer by healing everyone up.


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## Saepiroth (Feb 21, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *I'm angry because you are abusing your position, clockwork.
> You are using the supposedly unbiased Gawds who you say are representatives of their alignments as instruments to get across your personal vendettas and biases. *



 actually, he's being reasonably fair. hell, he's given you some concessions, too. even if he has some sort of "vendetta" against you (which i still doubt he has at all), you caused it by whining and bitching about almost every little thing.

in fact, i bet that if he took a poll of the players right now, to see if you should be removed from the game for (x) reason, he would get well in excess of a majority supporting. but you know what? he's NOT GOING TO DO THAT. because, no matter how much you whine and moan, he's still trying to be fair to you.

stop with the persecution complex.



edit; i just managed to force myself through all that stuff that you wrote, and i realized that that wasn't your point at all. so, i guess, the lesson here is that you should stop being so verbose and i should read more. but still, you are the _epitome_ of "too long; didn't read".


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 21, 2003)

While the Gods are paragons of their alignment, they are also big fat jerks.


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## Saepiroth (Feb 21, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *While the Gods are paragons of their alignment, they are also big fat jerks. *



 the gods are


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## reapersaurus (Feb 21, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *While the Gods are paragons of their alignment, they are also big fat jerks. *



tell me somethin' i don't know only too well....    

and saep - thanks for actually reading, if you're going to comment on what I write.
I'll keep.. posts.. short .. for you.
UGH. UGH


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## Saepiroth (Feb 21, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *tell me somethin' i don't know only too well....
> 
> and saep - thanks for actually reading, if you're going to comment on what I write.
> I'll keep.. posts.. short .. for you.
> UGH. UGH   *



 tldr


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## Terraism (Feb 21, 2003)

Ok, what the heck happened over there with Icitrik?


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## Number47 (Feb 21, 2003)

Yeah, I missed that, too.


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## reapersaurus (Feb 21, 2003)

I missed that, too.


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 21, 2003)

Terraism said:
			
		

> *Ok, what the heck happened over there with Icitrik? *




I'm not sure exactly but last night Icitrik ICQed me saying he wanted to change his turn if he couldn't destroy the weapon using his christmas natural 20 and while normally I don't allow take backs, I mislead him before since I didn't tell him of the rule that states magic weapons can only be damaged by weapons of equal or higher enchantment (I didn't know that was a rule). 

However, I was in the middle of a warcraft 3 game and didn't want to stop to icq him for however long it took to get his new turn. I told him that this turn was turning into a pain in the ass (not because of him, but because I kept having to go back to it trying to figure out what to do) and to just email me his new turn and I would figure all of this out after I was done playing warcraft 3.

I think he interpreted this as meaning that I told him to go screw himself or something like that which is NOT what I intended. 

I'll give him 24 hours to send me a new turn otherwise I'll go by my second ruling (Weapon damaged, knocked out of jarrod's hands) and process ancryx's turn (which I already have but i want to sort through this first)

Again, I'm sorry If I insulted you or pissed you off. I was angry when I icqed icitirk, not at him, but at warcraft 3 (level 8 undead campaign) and just wanted to finish that off.


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## Saepiroth (Feb 21, 2003)

oh, is THAT the problem? what about the Monk's Ki Strike: that gives him +x to his unarmed attacks for purposes of piercing DR, and presumably would carry over to damaging magic items. with the tattoo, he should be dealing damage effectively as a +3 weapon, shouldn't he? 

unless Jarrod went all pluses with no special effects, doesn't that affect him?


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 21, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> *oh, is THAT the problem? what about the Monk's Ki Strike: that gives him +x to his unarmed attacks for purposes of piercing DR, and presumably would carry over to damaging magic items. with the tattoo, he should be dealing damage effectively as a +3 weapon, shouldn't he?
> 
> unless Jarrod went all pluses with no special effects, doesn't that affect him? *




you're forgetting the possibility of a greater magic weapon spell cast at level 15 (+5 bonus)


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## Saepiroth (Feb 22, 2003)

damn.


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## Twinswords (Feb 22, 2003)

I`m sorry if i made any problems.

I saw the action of icitrik (briljant action btw.) And since i wasn`t very familar with the rules of striking a weapon, i studied a bit up on them and looked also for some counteractions as mending and such. I then noticed the rule and since normally monks count as +2/+3 weapon. I simply asked if that was correct. 

I try to learn from this game so i can use good actions/ideas later in my own game. (the trea of death is one trick i won`t be using)

I hope that other players also look up special actions so they can learn from it. If any notices a mistake i make or so please say so and i will look it up. and if correct ask clockwork to reverse it.

Twinswords, 
Jarrod


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## Number47 (Feb 22, 2003)

The case could be made, although I don't think it's a very strong one, that only the permanent enchantment of the weapon counts for when determining if it can be damaged or not. Note on page 136 of the PHB the text that refers to magic weapons and shields. It could be argued that the only enhancements that count are those that are permanent.

Personally, the damaging magical weapons part of the rules is one I hope they overhaul for 3.5. It smacks of 1E/2E, where a magic weapon either did full or no damage to creatures. It didn't work for creatures, it doesn't work for weapon damage.


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## Saepiroth (Feb 22, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *The case could be made, although I don't think it's a very strong one, that only the permanent enchantment of the weapon counts for when determining if it can be damaged or not. Note on page 136 of the PHB the text that refers to magic weapons and shields. It could be argued that the only enhancements that count are those that are permanent.*



 i'll make that case. besides, you have a backup weapon, don't you, Twinswords? admittedly, my little axe is primarily for defense purposes, but it's there...


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## Terraism (Feb 22, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> * i'll make that case. besides, you have a backup weapon, don't you, Twinswords? admittedly, my little axe is primarily for defense purposes, but it's there... *



I'd argue for it, too, but mainly because I think that GMW is a bit overpowered and I like the idea of a "true" magic weapon to be in some way superior.


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 22, 2003)

I was thinking along the same lines as Terrasim which is why I opted to damage it and knock it out of Jarrod's hand. It is still a significant setback for Jarrod but I want to be fair to both players.


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## reapersaurus (Feb 22, 2003)

[devil's advocate]
why don't we just re-evaluate ALL the 3E rules for this Game?
Don't like something? No prob - just change it on the fly.
Of course, only do that after the player has used the 3E rule for character-building, and strategy, and deciding posted actions. [/Devil's Advocate]

Seriously though, clockwork - if you have issues with more and more 3E rules, and are going to change them from the ones in the books, than could you maybe write them down, or list them ahead of time if they are going to impact players?

I'm not asking this question because of my Game experience - I'm asking because of what I'm seeing happen to others in the Game.

I know it would be very hard to list them all, but for instance - this Greater Magic Weapon thing you've known about for a long time.
Why change it this late in the Game?

Maybe all of us could list here some common problems, or things that you don't like about 3E Rules that may be changed before the Game is done?

I'll start a couple:
Is grappling going to work differently?
Is Invisibility in combat going to be changed at all?
Are any other spells that are on character sheets going to be changed?
Will any weapon effects be changed when they are used?
Will any magic items be tweaked when they are used?

Those are some of the areas that come to my mind that may be problematic if changed mid-Game, as they come up.
Can anyone think of any other things that maybe some proactive discussion now may stop surprises and ruffled feathers (like Icitrik) later?


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## Saepiroth (Feb 22, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *I know it would be very hard to list them all, but for instance - this Greater Magic Weapon thing you've known about for a long time.
> Why change it this late in the Game? *



 he hasn't changed anything. as he said, he DID NOT KNOW about the "plus superiority" rule for sundering weapons. he only knew about it when Twinswords pointed it out for him.

stop this stuff, reaper.


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## reapersaurus (Feb 22, 2003)

maybe you took this wrong, Saep - I'm just talking, trying to avoid misunderstandings or potential problems later.

I'm not meaning to say anything about clockwork, or anything like that.


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## Berk (Feb 23, 2003)

> Maybe all of us could list here some common problems, or things that you don't like about 3E Rules that may be changed before the Game is done?




I have one problem. The 3E rules allow you to play. I vote and petition that they change this in 3.5. So that the rules clearly state that reaper can't ever play in any game what so ever, UNLESS he stops b*#(hing and moaning about everything under the sun day after day after day after day. 

I could give TONS of examples but I'm sure I would just belittle you in every one of them because it would be just way to freakin easy and I'll prolly go and get myself banned or something.


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## Victim (Feb 24, 2003)

My move is now in.  I even sent it out before told it was my turn.  


I'd rather not see house rules on clearly defined issues in the middle of the game.  Sure, Greater Magic Weapon is probably overpowered.  But everyone had a chance to use it, and a character going into the game counting on his +5 GMW to protect against breakage shouldn't be screwed because the rules are changed in the middle.  Should he be allowed to change his weapon because he made his decision with poor information?  How can that be fairly ruled?  



BTW, shouldn't characters with evasion take no damage on a save?


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## Terraism (Feb 24, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *I'd rather not see house rules on clearly defined issues in the middle of the game.  Sure, Greater Magic Weapon is probably overpowered.  But everyone had a chance to use it, and a character going into the game counting on his +5 GMW to protect against breakage shouldn't be screwed because the rules are changed in the middle.  Should he be allowed to change his weapon because he made his decision with poor information?  How can that be fairly ruled?*



You've got a point, Victim, but, on the other hand, he even said that he didn't realize that was the case as far as sundering weapons, so it wasn't really according to plan.  Either way, I'm not really sure where I'd come down on this one.  Probably just as Clockwork did - weapon's not destroyed, but at least knocked out of his hand.  Seems fair enough to me.  After all, even for a magic weapon, getting hit that hard - some fifty points of damage - should at least send it flying.


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 24, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *My move is now in.  I even sent it out before told it was my turn.
> 
> 
> I'd rather not see house rules on clearly defined issues in the middle of the game.  Sure, Greater Magic Weapon is probably overpowered.  But everyone had a chance to use it, and a character going into the game counting on his +5 GMW to protect against breakage shouldn't be screwed because the rules are changed in the middle.  Should he be allowed to change his weapon because he made his decision with poor information?  How can that be fairly ruled?
> ...




several characters did take no damage like yasumoto


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 24, 2003)

Oops, forgot that other classes besides rogue have evasion.


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## Number47 (Feb 24, 2003)

Heck, you don't even need a class. You can buy it in a ring.


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## Number47 (Feb 24, 2003)

Is it correct that Ancryx is affected inside the force bubble?

Do constructs and animals take damage?


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 25, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Is it correct that Ancryx is affected inside the force bubble?
> 
> Do constructs and animals take damage? *




Yes, it is and constructs and animals aren't affected because I'm lazy. 

Also, anyone who took damage, made their save and had evasion just email me and I will update the status page acocrdinaglylaeqwe. 

Also: dust of choking/sneezing/whatever it is called is houseruled so that a save means only 1d4 rounds of choking and all that.


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 25, 2003)

Since Martok is now in the AMF, does the stunning power of the horn of blasting stop working? (magical effect etc etc)


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## Victim (Feb 25, 2003)

Err, did I mess up?  I wanted to be on the north side of the force cage.

In theory, effects with a duration would be suppressed, and then resume once out of the AMF.  But that might be a bit weird if someone could act, and then was stunned again when they started moving.  Oh well.


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## clockworkjoe (Feb 25, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Err, did I mess up?  I wanted to be on the north side of the force cage.
> 
> In theory, effects with a duration would be suppressed, and then resume once out of the AMF.  But that might be a bit weird if someone could act, and then was stunned again when they started moving.  Oh well. *




Send me your turn again. Maybe something got screwed up along the way.


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## reapersaurus (Feb 25, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *In theory, effects with a duration would be suppressed, and then resume once out of the AMF.  But that might be a bit weird if someone could act, and then was stunned again when they started moving.*



You can't act when it's not your turn.

For the time Martok is in the AMF, both the flying and the stun effect might be negated.
However, by the time he starts to fall, Maturak would probably have flown past him, and he'd have flight again, and be stunned again.

So whether he'd have dropped 5' or so would be a judgement call I'd guess.

Kinda weird, but we've had much weirder already.


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## Number47 (Feb 25, 2003)

Stunned is a condition that was acquired through a magical effect, but is not itself magical. So Martok is still stunned, just as AMF doesn't bring back damage lost from a fireball.


----------



## JDragon (Feb 25, 2003)

Clockwork - Did you get my move for round 8? I emailed it on Sunday night to your rpd485s address.

JDragon


----------



## clockworkjoe (Feb 25, 2003)

JDragon said:
			
		

> *Clockwork - Did you get my move for round 8? I emailed it on Sunday night to your rpd485s address.
> 
> JDragon *




have I at some point mentioned me being lazy or something? I'll do it today.


----------



## Vychtorya (Feb 25, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *have I at some point mentioned me being lazy or something? I'll do it today. *



(reapersaurus)
clockwork - what do you mean by this post?

I don't want to assume something, or misread it, but it seems like you're saying something I'm not sure you intend to...


----------



## JDragon (Feb 25, 2003)

Thats cool, just wanted to make sure it was there, not trying to rush you.

JDragon


----------



## Saepiroth (Feb 25, 2003)

Vychtorya said:
			
		

> *(reapersaurus)
> clockwork - what do you mean by this post?
> 
> I don't want to assume something, or misread it, but it seems like you're saying something I'm not sure you intend to... *



 someone inform me. is this Reaper for some reason posting under another name, or is Vychtorya making a disturbingly accurate impersonation of reaper's particular style of whining?


----------



## Berk (Feb 25, 2003)

> someone inform me. is this Reaper for some reason posting under another name, or is Vychtorya making a disturbingly accurate impersonation of reaper's particular style of whining?




Very close call on this one. I personally don't know because if it isn't reaper damn, someone give that person an oscar!!


----------



## Victim (Feb 25, 2003)

I thought reaper used that account earlier too.  So it shoud be him.


----------



## Saepiroth (Feb 25, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *I thought reaper used that account earlier too.  So it shoud be him. *



 then why isn't he using his normal account?

[gestapo]_*THESE QUESTIONS NEED ANSWERS!*_[/gestapo]


----------



## clockworkjoe (Feb 26, 2003)

Soon, everyone's perceptions are going to be changed as the purple hawk flies at midnight. New rules, new settings, and a new patch to sort everything out.


----------



## Hammerhead (Feb 26, 2003)

Huh?


----------



## Saepiroth (Feb 26, 2003)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> *Huh? *



 i think myself or Icitrik should know, but damned if i didn't miss my cue somewhere.

edit; i checked the site. clockwork is . for the lazy...


> Martok is stunned...by FOX's great Tuesday night lineup! From American Idol to 24, FOX has it all! Be sure to watch FOX...OR DIE
> 
> (This message brought to you by the Office of Homeland Security. Not watching FOX is grounds for treason.)


----------



## reapersaurus (Feb 26, 2003)

I'm really beginning to wonder if English is a shared language in this Game...


----------



## clockworkjoe (Feb 26, 2003)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> *Huh? *




just wanted to screw with Reaper's mind. 

Also:



> someone inform me. is this Reaper for some reason posting under another name, or is Vychtorya making a disturbingly accurate impersonation of reaper's particular style of whining?




[quote-rawr]


----------



## Number47 (Feb 26, 2003)

Well, Dabbil's turn is in. Soon as Yasumoto slices up Harsel.


----------



## JDragon (Feb 26, 2003)

Thanks for the vote of confidence.  

I may not be the most dangerous person out here, but I hope to hold my own for another round or two.  And hay at least I got a kill, and wasn't the first to die.  Not a bad showing for my first G.o D.

JDragon

AKA Harsel

BTW Clockwork, I just sent you an email regarding my and Yasumoto's combat. (just a heads up)


----------



## Saepiroth (Feb 27, 2003)

hay guys

whats goin on in this mortal tangle of death and the gods


----------



## Victim (Feb 27, 2003)

I'm thinking I shouldn't have said anything Blur until after Yasumoto's turn.  Then we might have seen the fearsome rogue yet again confront a foe immune to sneak attacks.  Oops.


----------



## JDragon (Feb 28, 2003)

Yeah that would have been fun, but I didn't want to make Clockwork's life any harder buy bringing it up after he had railed in to me.

JDragon


----------



## DM with a vengence (Feb 28, 2003)

Yasumoto here.

You don't think I'd be stupid enough to attack someone who I know is immune to my primary form of damage.  There was nothing in Norman's character description that stated he'd be immune to sneak attacks, and I figured even if he had uncanny dodge, I had to have more level in rogue then someone wielding two rapiers.

Remember, a flexible sense of 'honorable' can get you out of a lot of sticky spots.


----------



## Victim (Feb 28, 2003)

Yeah.  I assumed you knew about the rule, but after a number of people seemed surprised . . .


----------



## Saepiroth (Feb 28, 2003)

Jarrod's morning star just went suborbital.


----------



## Berk (Feb 28, 2003)

That's gotta hurt the foot!! =op


----------



## Number47 (Feb 28, 2003)

We already got 3 dead guys on map 1. What are you guys doing over there on map 2?


----------



## Terraism (Feb 28, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *We already got 3 dead guys on map 1. What are you guys doing over there on map 2? *



They were just playing games over there.  So I teleported over to Map 1... and got stuck.  [Grumble.]  

I liked Saep's move, by the way.


----------



## Berk (Feb 28, 2003)

> We already got 3 dead guys on map 1. What are you guys doing over there on map 2?




I'm busy being stunned and not being able to act. =o)


----------



## Victim (Feb 28, 2003)

Terraism said:
			
		

> *
> They were just playing games over there.  So I teleported over to Map 1... and got stuck.  [Grumble.]
> 
> I liked Saep's move, by the way.   *




Then teleport back over here.  I attacked you pretty early, but you ran away.  Clockworkjoe disagreed with my interpretation of a feat, so the method I was planning on using to neutralize your escape didn't work.  

Also, I don't want to attack Hawkeye anymore, since he saved himself when everyone seemed ready to write him off.

Half the people on map 2 left to attack people on Map 1.  Icitric, Ancryx, and Yasumoto all started on Map 2.  All the easy targets must be on the other side of the baord.

Macallan is under the map, hiding.  Hopefully he'll pop out and attack someone this round.

The offensive component of reaper's team has been absent, and Martok has been ruthlessly attacking Jade.  It's amazing she's still alive.

Sorry Number47, but not everyone is as helpless as Zalilad or as suicidal as Tobia.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Feb 28, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Sorry Number47, but not everyone is as helpless as Zalilad or as suicidal as Tobia. *




Acutally, Zalilad was suicidal and Tobias was helpless. Zalilad didn't even try to survive really, and Tobias's character just wasn't up to snuff. If only he stocked up and spammed disint. or prismatic spray spells he might have had a chance


----------



## Number47 (Feb 28, 2003)

Zalilad was never as helpless as I would've liked. I resent the implication that I beat up on a helpless victim. Note that the time he was Dominated and the protection from law was suppressed by the minor globe of invulnerability, I did not attack him. It would be unsporting to attack someone you have Dominated. When he was a stinker about not wanting to be Dominated, I had to, uh, punish him. But he was never once helpless. Just outmatched.


----------



## Victim (Feb 28, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Acutally, Zalilad was suicidal and Tobias was helpless. Zalilad didn't even try to survive really, and Tobias's character just wasn't up to snuff. If only he stocked up and spammed disint. or prismatic spray spells he might have had a chance  *




Close enough.  The results are very similar.

I'm not saying the Dabbil was dishonorable and killed Zalilad with cheap shots, but since he never attacked effectively you can't consider him the toughest target around.


----------



## Berk (Feb 28, 2003)

> The offensive component of reaper's team has been absent, and Martok has been ruthlessly attacking Jade. It's amazing she's still alive.




I like to play with my food before I enjoy it. =o)


----------



## Terraism (Feb 28, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Then teleport back over here.  I attacked you pretty early, but you ran away.  Clockworkjoe disagreed with my interpretation of a feat, so the method I was planning on using to neutralize your escape didn't work.  *



Oh, yeah, that makes a _lot_ of sense.    I'm going to willingly enter an antimagic field?  Hmm... you know, I'm surprised I even survived being _in_ it, let alone could have done something useful in there...


----------



## Jeremy (Feb 28, 2003)

I'm sorry, I got the part about kicking the morning star..  But then the message changed and added this line "he chops his free arm and weapon through the air".  What does that mean?

He kicked the weapon up to his hand and threw it?  He kicked it up and chopped through it?  What happened just then?  Is it no longer just 3 squares north?


----------



## Saepiroth (Feb 28, 2003)

Terraism said:
			
		

> *
> Oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.    I'm going to willingly enter an antimagic field?  Hmm... you know, I'm surprised I even survived being in it, let alone could have done something useful in there... *



 well, unless your Phylactery was exposed, nothing should happen. which brings us to a potentially powerful mystery...

where _is_ Ancryx's Phylactery?  we know that Clockwork had something particularly insidious planned, since he gave Liches such a low ECL...


----------



## Saepiroth (Feb 28, 2003)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> *I'm sorry, I got the part about kicking the morning star..  But then the message changed and added this line "he chops his free arm and weapon through the air".  What does that mean? *




"aaand... it's good!" :the ref chops his arms upwards:


----------



## Terraism (Feb 28, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> *where is Ancryx's Phylactery?  we know that Clockwork had something particularly insidious planned, since he gave Liches such a low ECL... *



I know that, in character, if I die in the arena, I'm gone for good.  That's about it...


----------



## Jeremy (Feb 28, 2003)

Ah.  Now I understand.  Thanks.


----------



## reapersaurus (Feb 28, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *We already got 3 dead guys on map 1. What are you guys doing over there on map 2? *



wow.
discussion about the Game.
Whooda thunk?

I find it strange that you'd jeer Map 2's fatality count, yet ignore a partial cause : Martok Maze-ing Therron.
If not for that move (which was a smart move by Martok, since he was so close to Therron, he probably would have been a prime target even before he attacked), I personally guarantee there would have already been 3 or 4 kills on this side of the Map.


----------



## Hammerhead (Feb 28, 2003)

Oh, okay reaper. Sure there would be...everyone would just lie down and you could show how much damage your character can do in one round.

Yeah, I don't think Ancryx should have been able to escape, because clockwork's rules interpretation is so open to holes it's not funny. 

Yeah, it's not Map2's fault they don't have any weak losers like Tobias, Zaliad, or Landerin to smack around. Notice how Map2's so tough, people move into Map1 to find people to kill. How pathetic is that?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Feb 28, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Zalilad was never as helpless as I would've liked. I resent the implication that I beat up on a helpless victim. Note that the time he was Dominated and the protection from law was suppressed by the minor globe of invulnerability, I did not attack him. It would be unsporting to attack someone you have Dominated. When he was a stinker about not wanting to be Dominated, I had to, uh, punish him. But he was never once helpless. Just outmatched. *




I'm not impugning your kill but Zalilad's player was a bit off. His first turn, he wanted to take out a 10 foot pole, some silk rope, and go fishing  



> Yeah, I don't think Ancryx should have been able to escape, because clockwork's rules interpretation is so open to holes it's not funny.




Is this sarcasm or not? I don't see how me ruling that large and in charge can't be used to trap people is open to holes. If I allowed that, then why would anyone want to grapple?


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 1, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> * His first turn, he wanted to take out a 10 foot pole, some silk rope, and go fishing  *



 AHAHAHAHAHAHAH



....



AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

who was he/where was he from? i know you said that there was some third site besides SA and ENworld that you invited people from... was he from there? or was he a fifth Goon?

also, i'm pretty sure that Hammerhead was being sarcastic. it sounds like he's continuing a nice, satisfying regimen of mocking reaper. best pastime there is!


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 1, 2003)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> *Oh, okay reaper. Sure there would be...everyone would just lie down and you could show how much damage your character can do in one round.*



You know it, bay-bee.  
Hell, Therron would have smashed everyone in the Game already if it wasn't for that pesky kid, Martok...  
That's what I'm talkin' about...


----------



## Hammerhead (Mar 1, 2003)

Well, no I wasn't being sarcastic. Your ruling on Large and In Charge (which I didn't want to mention because I didn't want to divulge information) ruled that it only worked on people coming towards you. However, what constitutes coming towards someone? What if someone moves by you?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 1, 2003)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> *Well, no I wasn't being sarcastic. Your ruling on Large and In Charge (which I didn't want to mention because I didn't want to divulge information) ruled that it only worked on people coming towards you. However, what constitutes coming towards someone? What if someone moves by you? *




I would rule that on a case by case basis but generally, anyone who ended up being closer to the person than he started would be considered moving towards you


----------



## Victim (Mar 1, 2003)

The LaiC ruling isn't that big of a deal now, because I know how it's going to work and can plan accordingly.  

But that one round (3?), I was really counting on it to keep Ancryx stuck in the AMF.  Originally, I was going to use my AoO to trip him so he'd be knocked down.  Since he already spent one move action provoking the AoO, he'd need to spend his other one to get up and thus couldn't escape.  Or something like that.  

But at the last minute, I'm like "Hey, I have Large and in Charge.  I can hit him for damage and still keep the lich from getting away."  So I changed my AoO choice at the last minute.  

Next time, lich boy, next time.


If Therron had been running around for the past 5, 6 rounds, I'd probably expect Hawkeye to be dead.  Maturak probably wouldn't have attacked Ancryx, because that would have placed him at risk from a charge.  Ancryx, because he could use constructs to block charge paths, would have done better.  Martok would have been much more quick to dodge out of true seeing range, and could have unleashed some other nastiness by using a different action.  After watching Therron charge someone, one player probably would have used one of the wishes to attempt to attack him.

Zalilad's actions . . . err . . . seem really weird.  Maybe Dabbil isn't such a force to be reckoned with.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 1, 2003)

I don't consider myself so much a force to be reckoned with, as a character to wonder (maybe even worry) about. However, just because I don't consider myself a force to be reckoned with doesn't mean my character isn't well-rounded enough to win with skill, strategy and luck. Not to mention I have the advantage of loot, now. Looting is good.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 1, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *The LaiC ruling isn't that big of a deal now, because I know how it's going to work and can plan accordingly.
> 
> But that one round (3?), I was really counting on it to keep Ancryx stuck in the AMF.  Originally, I was going to use my AoO to trip him so he'd be knocked down.  Since he already spent one move action provoking the AoO, he'd need to spend his other one to get up and thus couldn't escape.  Or something like that.
> 
> ...




Ahh, you should have specified what you were thinking about when you sent that turn in. Generally, it helps me and the player when the player describes his purpose behind his action, especially if it is a bit exotic. 
live and learn.

Edit, also I think Zalilad just gave up and decided that he would lose on purpose because he couldn't win, or he just didn't care that much


----------



## Victim (Mar 1, 2003)

It wasn't part of my normal turn, otherwise I would have probably described it.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 1, 2003)

that's probably a lesson, then... explain your general strategy to him when you send in your turn, and that way you'll be able to clarify things. he sent back to me a couple times to correct something, when i screwed up or misjudged something about his rulings like that.


----------



## Terraism (Mar 1, 2003)

Hey, Saep - while you're on.  Could I get a link to the webpage?  Windows died on me last night, and I had to reformat... so now I'm without lots of stuff.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 1, 2003)

http://www.slangdesign.com/battle/

anything else you need?


----------



## Terraism (Mar 1, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> *http://www.slangdesign.com/battle/
> 
> anything else you need? *



Thanks.  Nothing else, really - now I've just got to spend the next few days on a slow reconstruction of as much as possible. I lost a _lot_ of stuff last night.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 1, 2003)

that's why you use two hard drives and install Windows on a separate partiton. that way you won't lose everything if windows bursts like an overripe cyst.

i have partitions like this...

hard drive 1; 1 forty gig partition. it's full of crap, but i've moved everything important off of it. this currently contains windows, but it's really just sitting there waiting to die. i just don't have the necessary will to format it myself.

hard drive 2; two partitions.

partition 1; 70 gigs of crap storage. installs, movies, music, and etc.

partition 2; pristine ten gigs of free, empty space. all ready for a windows install when the old windows install or the old hard drive burst.


----------



## Terraism (Mar 1, 2003)

Yeah, I've got things partioned up, which meant I got to keep a lot of things, but that still left a lot on the Windows partition.  My e-mail information (years of e-mails; I have some backed up, but...) all my custom settings, etc.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 1, 2003)

i guess that's why you relocate "documents and settings" off of the windows partition.


happy horrribly-painful-and-tedious-reconstruction trails!


----------



## Berk (Mar 1, 2003)

Nah, that's why you run linux or os/x =o)


----------



## Terraism (Mar 1, 2003)

Berk said:
			
		

> *Nah, that's why you run linux or os/x =o) *



And give up my Photoshop?  Never!


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 1, 2003)

linux is for people who hate windows

MacOS is for people who love proprietary software

o snap


----------



## Berk (Mar 1, 2003)

> linux is for people who hate windows




Not always, it's also for people who don't feel like shelling out major bucks to buy subpar software. It's also great for companies, small and big. =o)

And bah photoshop. Doesn't mac have photoshop or something that is like even better anyway? =op


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 1, 2003)

Macs also require proprietary hardware constructed in-house and sold at jacked up prices. i can understand using Linux if you just don't like windows that much, but i can never see a reason to use MacOS.


----------



## Berk (Mar 1, 2003)

> Macs also require proprietary hardware constructed in-house and sold at jacked up prices. i can understand using Linux if you just don't like windows that much, but i can never see a reason to use MacOS.




Cuz it's better then windows. Plus jaguar is nice. =o)


----------



## Number47 (Mar 1, 2003)

Macs are not overpriced, not even a little. Haven't been in years. A mac may cost a bit more than a base PC, but that is because there is no such thing as a gutted mac. If you look in the long-term, macs cost far less over time because you replace them after about twice the time period you would replace a PC. Also, not only is Photoshop on the mac, but it is designed for the mac environment, really. It works so much better because macs are graphically oriented machines, I should know.

The really cool thing you can do is get a new mac, install Virtual PC on it with your flavor of Windows and you have the reliability, power and graphics of a mac and you don't have to buy new software. Your PC version of Photoshop still won't work as good as the mac version, though.


----------



## Terraism (Mar 1, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Macs are not overpriced, not even a little. Haven't been in years. A mac may cost a bit more than a base PC, but that is because there is no such thing as a gutted mac. If you look in the long-term, macs cost far less over time because you replace them after about twice the time period you would replace a PC. Also, not only is Photoshop on the mac, but it is designed for the mac environment, really. It works so much better because macs are graphically oriented machines, I should know.
> 
> The really cool thing you can do is get a new mac, install Virtual PC on it with your flavor of Windows and you have the reliability, power and graphics of a mac and you don't have to buy new software. Your PC version of Photoshop still won't work as good as the mac version, though. *



Actually, as far as losing Photoshop, I was referring to Linux.  I know it runs on Macs, but I [apparently was mistaken] didn't even mention them, because for a computer geek like me, using a Mac is just out of the question by default.    I mean, c'mon - they only have one button!


----------



## Berk (Mar 2, 2003)

> Actually, as far as losing Photoshop, I was referring to Linux. I know it runs on Macs, but I [apparently was mistaken] didn't even mention them, because for a computer geek like me, using a Mac is just out of the question by default.  I mean, c'mon - they only have one button!




You can get two buttons.

And as far as linux for graphical stuff, yeah it's a bit on the low end considering this but if you know someone that is good programming or whatever they can make a good one I'm sure. I mean look at the final fantasy movie and so many other animated movies, especially ones done by disney and pixar, that was all done on linux. =o)

Anyways, this has gotten far off topic. Bring on the bloodshed!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 2, 2003)

Berk said:
			
		

> * Anyways, this has gotten far off topic. Bring on the bloodshed!!!!!!!!!!! *



Speaking of which....  who's next in order?
Are we not using the 24-hour rule anymore for actions?
I thought it was in agreement to keep that up, or the game stalls...?


----------



## seasong (Mar 2, 2003)

Just caught up on reading this competition, and had two questions that I couldn't find the answers to...

1) What scale is that map? It seems like it's 5' per square, but I couldn't find a definitive statement to that effect.

2) Clockworkjoe, this is great! Are you going to run another? Can I play? Please?


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 2, 2003)

seasong said:
			
		

> *1) What scale is that map? It seems like it's 5' per square, but I couldn't find a definitive statement to that effect. *



 it is.


----------



## Terraism (Mar 2, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Speaking of which....  who's next in order?
> Are we not using the 24-hour rule anymore for actions?
> I thought it was in agreement to keep that up, or the game stalls...? *



It'd be nice, but I don't think that that has every really been enforced all that much...


----------



## Single Malt (Mar 3, 2003)

Just to clarify, I sent in my move before the weekend and have not received any mails saying it's invalid or anything so I guess it's just that pesky "life" thing everyone keeps talking about that has been interfering again. Anyone know what that stuff is? I'm sure glad I don't have one, seems to be a real pain....


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 3, 2003)

Single Malt said:
			
		

> *Just to clarify, I sent in my move before the weekend and have not received any mails saying it's invalid or anything so I guess it's just that pesky "life" thing everyone keeps talking about that has been interfering again. Anyone know what that stuff is? I'm sure glad I don't have one, seems to be a real pain.... *



 i wondered who was playing Macallan....


----------



## Number47 (Mar 3, 2003)

I wonder if clockworkjoe has a computer or connection problem. It's happened before. Normally, even if he's being "lazy" and not processing turns, he still comes by and comments.


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 3, 2003)

"lazy"?
so has he been serious in claiming that? I just assumed it was some SA slang for not doing something wrong and not blowing us off.
How is that OK?  <-- i don't know any other way to ask this...  

edit: I just noticed he's on ICQ, so I passed the question on to him...


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 3, 2003)

he's not dedicating his life to the game. i find no fault in this. it's not _THAT_ important, it's just fun. if it falls apart, then just say "well , let's try again".


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 3, 2003)

well, since I've already mentioned it, I might as well finish my thought, since you all already hate me anyway....

Saep - I wouldn't say the Game's falling apart, but I think we can all agree that it would be more fun if it went faster.
I don't think clockwork should dedicate his life to the Game, but isn't there a hope that the Game won't be continually slowed down by the _DM_?
It sounds like we players have been doing our part to scurry the Game along at a good clip - clockwork, I understand if you have RL issues that unexpectedly get in the way, but things like Warcraft 3 don't exactly impress me as being a reason to cause multiple players to wait for their enjoyment of a Game.

cw - it couldn't take THAT long to just post a player's action once it arrives, could it? A couple minutes a day?
Is there something that makes it difficult for you to keep up with the duties of the Game?
I'd imagine the mapping to be the hardest part - what IS the hardest part for you? (other than dealing with me and my big mouth, of course)


----------



## Number47 (Mar 3, 2003)

Just post for thought. I have been mulling over running a Game of Death maybe this summer. It's still a long way off, but I wanted to get some feedback. I was thinking of inviting players to play a Game of Death using my homebrew races, gods and clerical domains. Classes would be the same. Everything else would be core-only (because that is what I own). Would anyone be interested in a game like that?


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 3, 2003)

i'd be interested, definetly.


----------



## seasong (Mar 4, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> I was thinking of inviting players to play a Game of Death using my homebrew races, gods and clerical domains. Classes would be the same. Everything else would be core-only (because that is what I own). Would anyone be interested in a game like that?



As long as there are core humans, I'd probably be interested. I have a human fighter 15 that I think would do rather well in this .


----------



## Number47 (Mar 4, 2003)

Well, I haven't decided on level yet. Humans are there and unchanged. The other races are Gnome, with forest, hill and river varieties; Hobbit, with rural and urban varieties; Dwarf with undermountain, hill and gully varieties (although gully dwarves aren't really a PC race); Elf, with fey, feral and sealy varieties; Half-elf with minor difference for with type elf they are half of; Human, unchanged from book; I am toying with removing Half-Orc from the standard PC race line-up. They don't fit well with my game, and someone can still run one if they really, really want. I also have one more race called Eldar, but am toying with dropping them from the PC list, since nobody has shown much interest in them anyways. The race varieties you see are pretty well changed in a game-mechanics view from what is in the book.


----------



## seasong (Mar 4, 2003)

I could probably keep him reasonably twinked for a Game of Death as low as 6th level. But 15th is where he hits his "sweet spot".


----------



## Victim (Mar 4, 2003)

I'd be interested in that game, Number47.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 4, 2003)

Hi,

About the long delay. I'm a jerk and an ass. Sorry. A pet, a toad I had for 13 years, died Friday night and I was only conscious at home for about an hour Saturday and about 4 hours sunday and I couldn't get around to it until just now. 

I do try to do at least 1 post a day but I tend to do things on the weekend that screw up my schedule. 

Also, thanks for the complement seasong  47, If you want any advice help or a link on my site when you set it up just let me know. I personally hope a lot of people take this up as a sub-subculture in 3e d&d because I find this to be more engaging than any computer game based PvP contest. 

Also, the hardest/most time consuming part of this battle is trying to keep all the rules in mind when someone does anything  Whenever anyone does anything remotely different, I have to check the books to make sure it's legal. 

For example, when someone attacks someone else, I have to figure out their AC (buff spells, defensive fighting etc), special offensive/defensive effects like displacement, class effects, etc. 

Updating the map is very easy. I pull it up in dreamweaver 4 and move the icons around, save it and upload it via ftp. The maps are very simple to make, it's just that they are very large (390k per map).

edit to say, I *will* follow this through, unless I get shot or something. I hate not following through with something and I must make up for the shame of screwing my attempted dungeon game of death. 

Also, I will run another online game after this, but it will be a different type of battle royale...


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 4, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *For example, when someone attacks someone else, I have to figure out their AC (buff spells, defensive fighting etc), special offensive/defensive effects like displacement, class effects, etc. *



Don't people total that up for you?
I've been trying to include all relevant stats with my actions - wouldn't it be easier for you if people did that as the norm?
We know our character more than you should have to know them...


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 4, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Don't people total that up for you?
> I've been trying to include all relevant stats with my actions - wouldn't it be easier for you if people did that as the norm?
> We know our character more than you should have to know them... *



 i think he said that in the original rules, too... i know that i've been trying to include all relevant numbers when i send in a move, and to break it down into action types.


----------



## Berk (Mar 4, 2003)

> Just post for thought. I have been mulling over running a Game of Death maybe this summer. It's still a long way off, but I wanted to get some feedback. I was thinking of inviting players to play a Game of Death using my homebrew races, gods and clerical domains. Classes would be the same. Everything else would be core-only (because that is what I own). Would anyone be interested in a game like that?




I am interested in anything DND.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 4, 2003)

Well, maybe he just has to check over our numbers. Maturak will always screw with other peoples numbers, also.


----------



## Victim (Mar 4, 2003)

Good god yes.  My character sheet is mess.  Just about every stat has a slash or parenthesis seperating normal and AMF values.  Now I've also got temporary mods.  For characters without AMF stats calculated, doing anything in the field must be a chore.

But just because people are totaling things up, doesn't mean that they do it correctly.  I'd rather have someone be double checking all the moves to prevent errors, even my own.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 4, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Good god yes.  My character sheet is mess.  Just about every stat has a slash or parenthesis seperating normal and AMF values.  Now I've also got temporary mods.  For characters without AMF stats calculated, doing anything in the field must be a chore.
> 
> But just because people are totaling things up, doesn't mean that they do it correctly.  I'd rather have someone be double checking all the moves to prevent errors, even my own. *




Exactly. I have to doublecheck all figures especially because a lot of figures are affected by the spells and powers of the other person like protection vs X spells for example. I know that at least one or two melee attacks have hit or missed because of a protection spell.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 5, 2003)

You know, no one's linking to the site. If any of you want to see more of these kind of events, you should show them around to give other people an idea and hopefully inspire more games like this


----------



## blargney (Mar 5, 2003)

Berk said:
			
		

> And as far as linux for graphical stuff, yeah it's a bit on the low end considering this but if you know someone that is good programming or whatever they can make a good one I'm sure.




It's called the GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program).  There is also a version compiled for Windows as well as one for the Mac.

I don't even bother with Photoshop anymore.
-blarg

ps - I've been reading the game for the last couple of weeks.. it's fun!  It'd be even more fun if they were in about a tenth the space... *wink*


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 5, 2003)

i tried using the Gimp for quite a while... in my opinion, The Gimp is too gimped to be of all that much use.


----------



## seasong (Mar 5, 2003)

The only people I know of who recommend The Gimp over Photoshop are people who were not power users of Photoshop and other software of its calibre in the first place, OR who are diehard advocates of open software regardless of qualitative differences.

Uh... back on topic (sort of)... clockworkjoe, how easy was it to learn Movable Type and to set it up for your GoD?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 6, 2003)

seasong said:
			
		

> *The only people I know of who recommend The Gimp over Photoshop are people who were not power users of Photoshop and other software of its calibre in the first place, OR who are diehard advocates of open software regardless of qualitative differences.
> 
> Uh... back on topic (sort of)... clockworkjoe, how easy was it to learn Movable Type and to set it up for your GoD? *




Using movable type  is very easy to pick up, and doesn't require much in the way of HTML unless you want to change the appearance of the site. 

Installing it should be easy but I was too busy to figure it out so I just paid the people at movabletype $20 and they installed it for me. 

The movabletype forums are very helpful and answer questions pretty quickly. 

And for the record, gimp is nowhere near photoshop unless you just want to make images for the web and real basic image manip stuff.


----------



## Terraism (Mar 6, 2003)

Hey, Clockwork - while you're around.  I've asked in each of my last few e-mails if there's any way for my character to know how long that force region around me is going to last.  I figure it probably gets forgotten about, 'specially since you have to work on the god's actions directly after mine, but if you could let me know one way or the other, it'd be great.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 6, 2003)

Terraism said:
			
		

> *Hey, Clockwork - while you're around.  I've asked in each of my last few e-mails if there's any way for my character to know how long that force region around me is going to last.  I figure it probably gets forgotten about, 'specially since you have to work on the god's actions directly after mine, but if you could let me know one way or the other, it'd be great.  *




Nope except it is 3d6 minutes


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 6, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Nope except it is 3d6 minutes  *



 aka, "under our current rate of play, it fades 'sometime in july'"


----------



## Terraism (Mar 6, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> * aka, "under our current rate of play, it fades 'sometime in july'"
> 
> *



Ah, well.  I don't mind asking this here, 'cause it's pretty general, and I'm wicked tired, so I'm not digging through books to find out... someone know if one can teleport/dimension door/other-movement-form out of that thing?  Or am I almost as stuck as Reaper?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 6, 2003)

Terraism said:
			
		

> *
> Ah, well.  I don't mind asking this here, 'cause it's pretty general, and I'm wicked tired, so I'm not digging through books to find out... someone know if one can teleport/dimension door/other-movement-form out of that thing?  Or am I almost as stuck as Reaper?   *




it is a forcecage basically. You can teleport, dim door, or disnitgieriate it.


----------



## Terraism (Mar 6, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *it is a forcecage basically. You can teleport, dim door, or disnitgieriate it. *



Thanks.  My books are kinda a pain to get to right now, 'cause I've been cleaning, reorganizing, whatever, and it's been a long day, so I didn't want to dig 'em out.


----------



## seasong (Mar 7, 2003)

Number47, do you still plan to run a tournament?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 7, 2003)

12#!@*$!@#&$ !@*#!@P $UR@#Qrtf

Who is the @*#@(# MORON who converted the entire 3E SRD from HTML to RTF?

It was so easy to look things up and search, especially with web search engines like google...but now*(@#$*@Q#$@#$R()@W*#$*@%(& @W#$*@W#TW (*$_PW#@$@W%#$%*@( $U!@#$R*@Q$&@# @&%&* WEYT*WU#R$@#Q$@U#$@#&@#(*(#(#(#(#(#(#*$@#&$&@#$&@#$*@#*$@*#$%*@$(!!!!!!!!!@!@!!@@$!@!!!!!!!

I WILL KI


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 7, 2003)




----------



## AEtherfyre (Mar 7, 2003)

If you open up the file, ctrl-f find works, somewhat. Does that help?


----------



## Number47 (Mar 7, 2003)

Well, yeah, like I said I am leaning in that direction. I won't say definitely. But even if I do, it won't be until summer, I think.


----------



## seasong (Mar 7, 2003)

*Regarding the HTML versions of the SRD*

Boy, no kidding!

However, they had a good reason - the OGL site now has the fully updated SRD, whereas the HTML files were out of date, inaccurate, and no longer covered by the gentleman's agreement.

They didn't convert them so much as replace them. Hopefully now they will convert the RTFs to HTML. But if not, try this:

Google Search: SRD site: opengamingfoundation.org

You can tack on a rules reference to the end of that (like cleave or "attack +of opportunity") to grab the specific document. Use the CACHE link if Google has not finished updating to the RTF version, or use the VIEW AS HTML link if Google has finished.


----------



## seasong (Mar 7, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> Well, yeah, like I said I am leaning in that direction. I won't say definitely. But even if I do, it won't be until summer, I think.



Darn. And me being impatient...

Hey, clockworkjoe, what if I agreed to reduce my hit points to half, and my cohort's hit points to 1/4th? Could I get in? 

(only half joking )

Uh, don't take that seriously, by the way. I'm content to watch from the sidelines. I'll get to play eventually, now that I know to watch for one starting up.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 7, 2003)

seasong said:
			
		

> *Regarding the HTML versions of the SRD
> 
> Boy, no kidding!
> 
> ...




Bah. Annoying. And I don't want to open another program just to read some text. It's not big, just annoying. That and warcraft 3 battle.net. WHEE I LOVE LOSING 80 BAZILLION TIMES IN A ROW 

oh well i'm


----------



## Victim (Mar 7, 2003)

I went like 4-12 on my first two days on B-net.  But I was closing in on 50% recently, until my mouse started acting up.  I had to quit because it sucked to have the mouse freeze in the middle of a game.  It just takes some getting used to.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 7, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *I went like 4-12 on my first two days on B-net.  But I was closing in on 50% recently, until my mouse started acting up.  I had to quit because it sucked to have the mouse freeze in the middle of a game.  It just takes some getting used to. *




I'm 0-15 in 2 nights of playing. Bleh. I've read every strategy thing on the net and watched a lot of my replays but I can't manage building, creeping, and attacking the enemy all at the same time.


----------



## Victim (Mar 7, 2003)

Are you doing 1v1 or 2v2?  I usually like to have someone covering my back, even if sometimes my partner is moron and causes my defeat.  Also, you can share control of units, which helps sometimes.

Also, I usually think it's best to focus on 2 out of the 3.


----------



## seasong (Mar 7, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> Bah. Annoying. And I don't want to open another program just to read some text. It's not big, just annoying.



No, that's what I'm saying. Google converts to HTML on the fly. You just use Google as the index instead of the actual website's index page.

Here's a direct link


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 7, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Are you doing 1v1 or 2v2?  I usually like to have someone covering my back, even if sometimes my partner is moron and causes my defeat.  Also, you can share control of units, which helps sometimes.
> 
> Also, I usually think it's best to focus on 2 out of the 3.   *




Mostly 1v1, as in the few games I've played 2v2 or 3v3 I get nailed even faster and I don't know how to coordinate with teammates very well yet. 

I just have to learn this from the ground up. wHEE so much fun.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 8, 2003)

I find the discussion on Jade's dispel very interesting, moreso because no one's figured out how she manged it.

whee!


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 8, 2003)

so it wasn't just that Martok used an item with a low caster level to create those two effects?

ENLIGHTEN ME PLZ REAPER PLZ


----------



## Hammerhead (Mar 8, 2003)

Easy. Jade's a cleric; she used a Bead of Karma.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 8, 2003)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> *Easy. Jade's a cleric; she used a Bead of Karma. *



 ah.

then what's with all the dancing and singing?


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 8, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *I find the discussion on Jade's dispel very interesting, moreso because no one's figured out how she managed it.*



Yeah, I was wondering how long that "mystery" could last - especially around this rules-insightful of group, I'm surprised it wasn't immediately thought of (AFAIK it's the most famous way of increasing caster level.)
Since it sounds like people are curious about the intimate details of Jade's actions and results (Saep), the Bead of Karma is actually on a *Belly Necklace* of Prayer Beads. 
I thought that would match Jade better.

And she invoked it the 1st round : "She concentrates inwardly, flourishing to the Diety-Box while moving and cartwheeling East"


			
				Saepiroth said:
			
		

> *then what's with all the dancing and singing? *



Don't you know?
It's a PAAARRRRRR-TAAAYYY!!

Actually, as for the singing and lame dancing with 1 STR (there's no requirement that she has to dance WELL)... well, that's NOYB.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 8, 2003)

well, i was still on "bard" mode, even right up to the end. the lack of music playing should have fixed me for that, though.


----------



## Victim (Mar 8, 2003)

Shield Other, and not from a scroll, is a give-away that Jade has cleric levels.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 9, 2003)

well, i'm stupid


----------



## Hammerhead (Mar 9, 2003)

If I had to make a guess, and I think it's a pretty good guess, I'd say Jade is a Virtuoso with Cleric levels.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 9, 2003)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> *If I had to make a guess, and I think it's a pretty good guess, I'd say Jade is a Virtuoso with Cleric levels. *



 since Virtuoso has a +1 caster level ability and requires arcane spell casting ability, wouldn't that actually be unlikely since she isn't using any arcane spells?

not to mention, most of those abilities seem to be kind of worthless unless you're enhancing a crowd...





...though, what she did earlier on the crowd could easily have been a _Greater Calumny_.


----------



## Victim (Mar 9, 2003)

Reapersaurus SAID it was greater calumny.

If Virtuoso doesn't place a restriction on the +1 caster levels, they could be used for cleric casting even though the class requires arcane casting.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 9, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Reapersaurus SAID it was greater calumny.
> 
> If Virtuoso doesn't place a restriction on the +1 caster levels, they could be used for cleric casting even though the class requires arcane casting. *




I ruled that it didn't.


----------



## Vychtorya (Mar 9, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> * ...though, what she did earlier on the crowd could easily have been a Greater Calumny. *



(this is reapersaurus)
ROFL!
Your powers of deduction are stupifying, Dr. Watson.  

The current GoD version of Jade is a quite straight-forward build (and very sub-optimal) - I'm surprised just from a spell or 2, and her actions (Greater Calumny), it's not obvious. Certainly not worth this much discussion, but ya'll are welcome to, if you'd like.
Hell, I'll tell you what she is if you want - I thought by stating Greater Calumny, I already had.

Who I'm interested in (class levels) is Macallan (why would a Shifter use his Advantage for a Shapechange spell?), Martok (HOW HIGH are his spell DC's and saves?), and Jarrod (psionic abilities now?).


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 9, 2003)

why do you keep using a different name like that?


----------



## Number47 (Mar 9, 2003)

I don't think Jarrod has psionic abilities. I think they are being manifested on him by his god, Athena. Grr. I don't like Athena favoring anyone other than me.

I got the impression that Macallan was a shifter, bonus unknown. I don't have the books, so I can't really say. I also don't know if he might have a feat, ability or magic item that can increase his shapeshifting possibilities.


----------



## Victim (Mar 9, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> *why do you keep using a different name like that? *




Because someone else on that computer uses these boards and has a different account.


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## Berk (Mar 9, 2003)

My spell DC are at the same time decently high and pretty low. Nowhere near maximized though, I coulda eeked out an extra 6+ onto all of the DC's if I wanted to but it just didn't fit everything I wanted to do.


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 10, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *I also don't know if he might have a feat, ability or magic item that can increase his shapeshifting possibilities. *



I don't know of any thing that will get around the HD-cap on shapeshifting other than a scroll of Shapechange.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 10, 2003)

_*WOW!*_

things just took an interesting turn...


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 10, 2003)

A few extra notes about mercenaries:

1. Psionic characters who can manifest level 3 and 4 powers cost double, same as magic users.

2. The gawds added the mercs to give people additional offensive options and not as aids to hide and survive. The gawds want to see more bloodshed


----------



## Number47 (Mar 10, 2003)

Questions:

1) Can you hire more than one merc?

2) Can you hire more than one merc with a single sold item?

3) Does the merc(s) you hire have the items you sell?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 10, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Questions:
> 
> 1) Can you hire more than one merc?
> 
> ...




1. Yes.

2. Yes. 

3. No.


----------



## Victim (Mar 10, 2003)

Since someone asked about the giths':

PsiHB versions:

Githyanki:

+2 DEX, CON; -2 WIS
Telekinesis, Clairaudience/voyance, Dimensional Slide (short range teleport, must have line of sight) at will
Planeshift 1/day at 8th level
SR 5+level
They also have psionic combat modes
default feat is Weapon Focus: Greatsword

Githzerai:

+6 DEX, +2 WIS, -2 INT
SR 5+level
Combat Prescience (+2 insight to attacks), Far punch (1 point hit), and featherfall at will
Planeshift 1/day at 8th level
They also have psionic combat modes
Default feat: Inertial Armor (constant Mage Armor)


----------



## Victim (Mar 10, 2003)

Does the level max for the Gith-people include their ECL?  For instance, you could have a level 6 Githzerai for 16k or a level 6 elf for 12k.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 10, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Does the level max for the Gith-people include their ECL?  For instance, you could have a level 6 Githzerai for 16k or a level 6 elf for 12k. *




Sure does.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 11, 2003)

What languages do the giths speak, according to the book?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 11, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *What languages do the giths speak, according to the book? *




They both have their own language, common, and Githyanki speak draconic as well.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 11, 2003)

So, if I'm not mistaken, the most dear cost for a mercenary would be a 6th level Ogre Wizard (or cleric, druid sorceror)? 11th level equivalent, double cost for spellcaster, 44,000 gp. I wonder if it would be worth it? I would be half tempted to, myself, just for fun. I cannot hire the evil beasts, though.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 11, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *So, if I'm not mistaken, the most dear cost for a mercenary would be a 6th level Ogre Wizard (or cleric, druid sorceror)? 11th level equivalent, double cost for spellcaster, 44,000 gp. I wonder if it would be worth it? I would be half tempted to, myself, just for fun. I cannot hire the evil beasts, though. *




If you the lone good aligned ogre wizard or sorcerer(boy is he misunderstood), I'll let you make him up to 8th level (level 13 =52,000 gp total) in the entire universe, then yes you can  The idea of a good aligned ogre wizard is quite amusing to the gods. No special ogre cleric or druid though, just wizard sorcerer or bard.


----------



## Victim (Mar 11, 2003)

Dang it.  Only the bad giths speak draconic.

I think I got bad targeting data.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 11, 2003)

I am really frickin tempted. That's a lotta moola, but wow, 8th level Ogre Sorceror, gotta love it.


----------



## Victim (Mar 11, 2003)

Well, since you got tons of stuff from Zalilad, you can cash those items in for the money.  Throw in stuff you haven't even identified to sweeten the deal.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 11, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Dang it.  Only the bad giths speak draconic.
> 
> I think I got bad targeting data.   *




That's my fault, I gave reaper wrong coordinates. I'm sorry about that and if victim wants to readjust his character's position because of that, that's fine with me.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 11, 2003)

I see that you updated the map, but where is Martok's icon?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 12, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *I see that you updated the map, but where is Martok's icon? *




Maturak moved to make Martok visible so the archers could shoot then moved back to cover Jade with the AMF.


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 12, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *Maturak moved to make Martok visible so the archers could shoot then moved back to cover Jade with the AMF. *



Couldn't Maturak have covered both Jade and Martok's positions within his AMF?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 12, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Couldn't Maturak have covered both Jade and Martok's positions within his AMF? *




No, his position is 1 square west of what I originally told you. I'm sorry, I screwed that up.


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 12, 2003)

So Martok is still within range, right?
I don't get it.
You moved Martok so he wouldn't be in range?
Just move Jade 5' to compensate...


----------



## Victim (Mar 12, 2003)

You'd have to move down two squares, not one.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 12, 2003)

Can I suggest a new page on the site, Current status of NPCs? It can include these mercs, and maybe animals and constructs.


----------



## cool hand luke (Mar 12, 2003)

*is this still open*

is this open to new players?  It looks like a blast!


----------



## seasong (Mar 12, 2003)

That's what I'M sayin... but there's no love for us, I'm afraid.


----------



## Terraism (Mar 12, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Can I suggest a new page on the site, Current status of NPCs? It can include these mercs, and maybe animals and constructs. *



I think if you hover on the icons for the NPCs, it shows you their current HP status, if that helps.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 12, 2003)

You know, if anyone wants to play, they could stand in for the mercs. However, the player hiring the mercs would have to approve of the person running the merc. But if anyone has a problem with that, I'll throw that option out.

Also, if someone makes a new status page for the mercs, animals constructs and other NPCs, I will give them +5 victory points. +5 points if you make better icons for the constructs. Use the same status page format for them as well. 

Zaknum and Rakh have chain shirts, Fiss and Hist both have plate mail, Thik and Toz have leather armor and Zarth has robes and is hasted and has mage armor.


----------



## Victim (Mar 12, 2003)

Right now, I don't have access to my mercenaries' character sheets.  Other people (presumeably) don't as well.  If people from these boards were playing the mercs, then it would be easy to exchange information and one could also give the characters more exact directions (use X potion, move to square Y, etc).  That might not be bad, per say, but it probably would increase the importance of mercenaries in the game.


----------



## cool hand luke (Mar 12, 2003)

I'd be willing to step in as a mercenary, especially if it lead to me being a full fledged player later.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 12, 2003)

cool hand luke said:
			
		

> *I'd be willing to step in as a mercenary, especially if it lead to me being a full fledged player later. *



 i think you'll probably have to wait for the next one. the security issues of having the mercs be player-run make me antsy.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 12, 2003)

I agree that having people run the mercs is bad. I will make that status page for you later tonight, if that's okay with everyone.

Are there only two kinds of construct, size Large and size Medium?


----------



## seasong (Mar 12, 2003)

As much as I'd like to take a mid-level mercenary and help take down high-level monsters... er, characters...

I think it's probably a bad idea, both from a logistics standpoint (clockworkjoe now has even more emails and actions to process) and a game play standpoint (the game isn't about how effective the kobolds, gawds, mercenaries, et al, can be at trouncing the PCs).

And besides... when it comes down to it, I want to play MY twinked out character and see how he/she does, not someone else's  .


----------



## cool hand luke (Mar 12, 2003)

ok, that's cool, when will the next round of slashing and bashing be starting up?  does this have a definite ending date?


----------



## Berk (Mar 12, 2003)

> ok, that's cool, when will the next round of slashing and bashing be starting up? does this have a definite ending date?




When I'm the last one left standing. =o)

Actually till there is one left, prolly not me but hey, I can hope can't I? =op


----------



## cool hand luke (Mar 12, 2003)

where's the website for this thing?


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 12, 2003)

cool hand luke said:
			
		

> *where's the website for this thing? *



http://www.slangdesign.com/battle/

i posted it earlier in the thread.


----------



## Terraism (Mar 12, 2003)

Ok - I put together a sidekick page, but I'm not sure what the exact hitpoints for all the animals and my constructs are, so I've just got a "?" for that right now.  You can get to it at http://www.clarkson.edu/~barnetja/sidekicks.html.  Clockwork, go ahead and snatch it if it's what you're looking for.

Also, I put together a selection of icons for characters and stuff - from a bunch of sources.  I didn't feel like spending any real time on the webpage, so it doesn't look great, but a gallery of 'em is available here.  http://www.clarkson.edu/~barnetja/god_icons.htm


----------



## Number47 (Mar 12, 2003)

Gah. Why is it taking so long to get Martok's turn? He's still stunned, isn't he? Or does that wear off on his init?


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## reapersaurus (Mar 13, 2003)

Looks great, Terraism.
Good job.


> Victim opined:
> That might not be bad, per say, but it probably would increase the importance of mercenaries in the game.



And this would be a Bad Thing, in my eyes.
Anything that increases the importance of the mercenary influence is Bad, in general, if the emphasis is on the "Heroes".

I'm taking bets as to how many mercs will be on the page by the time my turn rolls' round....  25?

And 47 - 
Martok was freed from the stun on Jade's turn, so he's free to act.
I was SO tempted to stun-lock him, but that's not in the spirit of the Game....


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## Victim (Mar 13, 2003)

Probably not 25.  I'd think that Harsel and Maturak are in somewhat unique positions, along with Dabbil and Icitrik.  I'm using AMF, but had a number of items for emergencies like getting attacked before I got to move.  I could sacrifice some of these items for little loss.  Harsel, Dabbil, and Icitrik have looted fallen character's bodies and thus have more stuff than usual.  

Most other characters probably don't have as much second rate stuff, and so will be less willing to sacrifice valuable magic for mercs of unknown value.


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## Berk (Mar 13, 2003)

> Gah. Why is it taking so long to get Martok's turn? He's still stunned, isn't he? Or does that wear off on his init?




Nod, as reaper said i was no longer stunned as of his turn last round. And as for my turn taking so long to get in I can only assume that clockwork is still trying to figure out what I meant by my long winded e-mail or is just doing stuff associated with my turn that would take awhile.


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## clockworkjoe (Mar 13, 2003)

As for the value of selling entire bodies and items and the value of mercenaries in general

It is presumed that all fighters realize that they are all very close to each other in terms of power, experience, and wealth as the gods get a bigger kick out of close battles, not one sided slaughters. 

Mundane equipment is sellable. The game balance factor being sacrificing useful items for mercs. I just don't want players using gold pieces to buy them since there is no sacrifice on the part of the player. 

The Gods allowed the mercenaries in because of the additional carnage potential and also to allow some characters a chance to try desperate gambits in battle weighing their hard earned wealth and powerful items versus the possibilities of a hired hand. 

Don't forget these are *mercenaries*. Even the good aligned mercs are not above changing sides or abandoning their employers.


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## Saepiroth (Mar 13, 2003)

either way, this western section of map is soon going to become a _very_ embattled place.

armies upon armies upon armies!

and a dragon!


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## Altin (Mar 13, 2003)

regarding Martok's turn ...

Can anybody else say OVERKILL? 

Meanwhile, what was the point of having the mages cast invisibility and *then* having the archers attack? Assuming it isn't imp invis... 

Yours,
Altin


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## Number47 (Mar 13, 2003)

Perhaps the archers were rogues? Martok must have sold damn near everything he owned to get these guys, unless they are pretty low level. I figure the archers must've been at least sixth level fighters and the wizards at least third level. Five gith sixth level fighters is 40,000. Five gith third level wizards is 25,000. They were probably higher level than that. What amazes me is that he hired githzerai. Is that right? Martok is not chaotic, not evil?


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## Number47 (Mar 13, 2003)

Further clarified. The archers Martok hired certainly were rogues. If you look at the damage, it's pretty clear the first hit was sneak attack damage. They each fired three times, so they have to have a +6 base attack bonus and rapid shot. So the Gith archers are 8th level rogues, cost of 50,000 gp total. Probably very likely that the gith wizards are not capable of casting third and fourth level spells, or they would've cast improved invisibility. I am still going with them being 3rd or 4th level, cost of 50,000 or 60,000. The new ones, after Jade's death, not sure. A 14th level NPC has gear valued at 45,000gp. She lost a 12,000gp Ioun Stone, and used at least one scroll. So the new guys can't be worth more than 33,000, unless Jade was extra equipped by Therron.


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## clockworkjoe (Mar 13, 2003)

On Harsel's turn: The morning star did less damage. The arrow had sufficient magic to override Sepiroth's protection. 

Please also note that Martok violated the exact terms of the quest (protect Jade's body) by selling it and thus will suffer the penalties for it. Zeus probably ain't going to be happy about Martok violating the quest either. 

I didn't update the maps and so forth last night because a thunderstorm was going through my area and I didn't want to risk my equipment from a power surge. 

Yasumoto can send me his turn if he wants to.


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## Number47 (Mar 13, 2003)

This is probably going to be slow, now. I can't send in a turn until I see Yasumoto's. He's just too close to me and I have no idea what he's going to do.

Martok actually sold the body itself? Gross. I assumed they just took all the stuff off of it. I wonder how much for bodies these days?


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## Saepiroth (Mar 13, 2003)

ah, so the fighters are the weak ones... time to go stab the rogue a couple times, i guess.

and get rid of some of the more worthless crap i stupidly took.


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## clockworkjoe (Mar 13, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Martok actually sold the body itself? Gross. I assumed they just took all the stuff off of it. I wonder how much for bodies these days? *




As did Harsel. They just sold the body with all its gear as one item instead of stripping the body and selectively selling loot worthless to them.


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## reapersaurus (Mar 14, 2003)

clockwork - 
is this the results you wanted for this Game of Death?
Death by NPC's?
To have the outcome of a 3 month battle between players determined by your flawed gimmick?

What a surprise - you allow 50 levels of rogues and 25 levels of magic users to be summoned, and there's a kill.
What do you have against us players deciding the outcomes of the battles ourselves?

Couldn't it have been enough to just keep cycling Planes?


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## reapersaurus (Mar 14, 2003)

BTW - Martok should be visible, in the square he stopped to pick up Jade's body in.
He's in the AMF.


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## Berk (Mar 14, 2003)

> BTW - Martok should be visible, in the square he stopped to pick up Jade's body in.
> He's in the AMF.




I moved out of the field.

And it's good to see that dying gets you back to your whining mode reaper. Hate to see what happens if Therron dies. Anyways, as for me, it's back to moving again so will only be able to hopefully relay messages to clockwork in time for my moves.


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## Number47 (Mar 14, 2003)

Is this what you wanted, clockworkjoe? To have an interesting, suprising and fun game? I suppose you think it's alright to not just let reaper kill us all while we stand helpless? You tell me, what fun is that for reaper, the one who really counts here? I hope you're happy.


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## Saepiroth (Mar 14, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Is this what you wanted, clockworkjoe? To have an interesting, suprising and fun game? I suppose you think it's alright to not just let reaper kill us all while we stand helpless? You tell me, what fun is that for reaper, the one who really counts here? I hope you're happy. *



  for serious.


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## seasong (Mar 14, 2003)

Regarding the death and sale of Jade:

Reapersaurus, I honestly wouldn't worry about it. Martok wasted a lot of his personal magic items to kill a _cohort_, and then wasted the effort by immediately giving himself geas penalties and a possible enmity with Zeus. That's a darned expensive kill, and one I think he'll regret in the coming rounds of this endurance match.

If I was to pick between losing a cohort who cost me a single feat, and losing a bunch of magic items + gaining geas penalties, I know which side I'd rather be on. _Especially_ since your character is still safe and unhurt in the maze.

I know you just don't _feel_ right if you haven't complained for a round or two, but really, in this case, you're in good shape.


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## reapersaurus (Mar 14, 2003)

*sigh*

I wish that you respondants could just reply to what I write, not focus on who is asking it.

It's _not all about me, guys._
Get over it - I'm asking valid questions here, and to portray it as me "whining" or "complaining" is old already.

If you're going to reply at all, please respond to the questions.
Seasong - thanks for the rational post, but that's not what I brought up.
I didn't complain or even mention how I feel about losing Jade.

Trust me, I'd like to comment, but I know how it would be taken by you guys.
That post was repeatedly edited, to make sure I was directing it to Game issues, not issues about me and my character(s).


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## Number47 (Mar 14, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *clockwork -
> is this the results you wanted for this Game of Death?
> Death by NPC's?
> To have the outcome of a 3 month battle between players determined by your flawed gimmick?
> ...




You're saying that this *isn't* whining and complaining? So the sentence ending "...determined by your flawed gimmick?" is what you consider a rational, valid question?

Your little charade isn't fooling anyone, reaper.


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## seasong (Mar 14, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> Seasong - thanks for the rational post, but that's not what I brought up.



You are welcome. And for what it's worth, I agree with the real point: the mercenaries don't seem like much fun.

If you'd said that, and only that, I would have been on your side. But you said a lot more than just that:
"is this the results you wanted"
"your flawed gimmick"
"what a surprise"
"what do you have against us players"

That's taken out of context, because I wanted to show you your _word choice_. Like I said: I agree with the point you concealed among those words, that the mercenaries don't seem like much fun, but those words covered the point like road kill on a diamond.

Further, the situation you described with your post applied to ONLY ONE CHARACTER. Jade. You may not have mentioned her by name, but who else are we supposed to think you were talking about?

One other point, about why your real point was hidden:







> I wish that you respondants could just reply to what I write, not focus on who is asking it.



_Who_ says a thing is often as important as _what_ they say. If a boy cries wolf, you have to ask yourself, "Is he for real this time, or is he just trying to get us all to come play his game again?"

At some point, no matter how valid the complaint, people stop listening to a habitual whiner. That is a fact of life. If you want people to listen to your _valid complaints_, save your complaining for the real ones... and if you come back and tell me that every complaint you've had so far is valid, I will come back and advise you to drop the game - if you've had that many valid complaints, the game is rotten.

Not necessarily rotten for everyone (one man's rot is another man's fertilizer), but definitely rotten for you.


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## seasong (Mar 14, 2003)

A quick note on boys crying wolf: personally, I think that some things are dangerous enough that you _have_ to listen to warnings, even if you don't trust the individual to be for real. This game is not that dangerous.

I also believe that a boy who cries wolf (or fire in a theatre) without just cause should be beaten until they don't play the prank again.

_Not that I am advocating beating reapersaurus_ - like I said, this isn't a dangerous situation, and while I may not _enjoy_ listening to him every round of the game, it certainly isn't putting me in jeopardy like crying wolf would.


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## Number47 (Mar 14, 2003)

And don't run with scissors! And don't shove nickels up your nose!


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## seasong (Mar 14, 2003)

But nickels smell so gooooood!


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## Number47 (Mar 14, 2003)

Speaking of which, I was wondering when we could get the base stats of Landerin and maybe Vraketh? Jade if cohorts are included? Just curious about them.


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## Number47 (Mar 14, 2003)

I can't believe it's taking so long for Yasumoto.


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## Saepiroth (Mar 14, 2003)

i guess corpse-selling is a nogo.

oh, while we're posting character stats, you might want to throw Jinx's "tobias" up too. unless you already did?  

i'm so confused!


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## Number47 (Mar 14, 2003)

I think we did see Tobias, didn't we?


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## clockworkjoe (Mar 14, 2003)

Martok couldn't sell the corpse because of the quest. Other players are free to sell any corpse they can get their hands on. 

Also, the mercs were added to give players a fighting chance against a strategy they couldn't otherwise fight against, like a mage vs a fighter in a AMF. While a few characters are clearly more powerful than others, I wanted to add some unpredictability (and fun) to the match. Otherwise, the top 3-5 players would just grind the others into dust via attrition if nothing else. 

Note that there were several similar events on the chart that won't happen now because the mercs showed up. I always intended to give some players a chance to increase their power in midgame via hired help at the cost of their magic items/other sacrifices. 

Some of other potential 'hired help' events included

*vampires asking for energy levels in exchange for aid

*Demons/devils asking for souls (player becomes affected by holy items as evil outsider)

*kobold antibuff squad asking for ioun stones

*celestials helping all good aligned players in exchange for pledges not to kill anyone (must render unconscious or immobilize)

and a few more. But once one hired help event happened, all others were precluded.


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## Jeremy (Mar 14, 2003)

Whoah, archer batteries.  Shouldn't some of those NPC's be pincushioning each other since they are all so crammed together trying to shoot through each other?  I mean, damn, it was a funny image thinking of 1 Str Jade getting absolutely plastered by arrows, but there is the cover from the people, concealment from shooting between people, cover from the force cage bars, etc.

Throw some clay pidgeons out there.  "Pull!"


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## clockworkjoe (Mar 14, 2003)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> *Whoah, archer batteries.  Shouldn't some of those NPC's be pincushioning each other since they are all so crammed together trying to shoot through each other?  I mean, damn, it was a funny image thinking of 1 Str Jade getting absolutely plastered by arrows, but there is the cover from the people, concealment from shooting between people, cover from the force cage bars, etc.
> 
> Throw some clay pidgeons out there.  "Pull!" *




In jade's case, she had a very low AC from her encumbrance, no magical protection (she was in the AMF) and the closeness of the archers. 3 shots did miss however.


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## Saepiroth (Mar 14, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *I think we did see Tobias, didn't we? *



 yeah, i guess it was in the other thread. wasn't it? 

...yeah, Jinx posted it himself. i don't know what the hell is wrong with me.




I just want to see Zalilad's sheet. there must've been some hillariously crazy stuff on there!


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## Number47 (Mar 14, 2003)

Zalilad was posted, but of course it was only raw stats. The fun stuff would be everything we won't find out about until after the whole thing is over.


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## seasong (Mar 14, 2003)

I'm a little scared to post this . I'm thinking about starting a Game of Death by the end of this month.

The reasons are manifold, but essentially boil down to, "I wanna play, too, and I'll referee if that's what it takes". And... maybe if I referee one, it will inspire someone else to run another one soon, that I can play my twinky fighter in .

(Yeah, I know Number47 may run one at some unspecified time in the future - but I'd like to play now, and that doesn't preclude playing later)

Anyway, I'm soliciting comments and statements of interest. If I need to start a new thread I will, of course!


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## cool hand luke (Mar 14, 2003)

*very interested*

I am very very interested in a new game o death, especially if it's as interesting as this one.


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## Jeremy (Mar 14, 2003)

[hijack]Just lemme know where the thread is, I'm interested.[/hijack]


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## clockworkjoe (Mar 14, 2003)

You know, I think I'll start working on a generic 3E game of death community website, to explain what a game of death is, how to play and run one, and tips that I've learned from running this one. Plus links to any other GoDs running of course


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## JDragon (Mar 14, 2003)

I'll jump in anotherone if theirs room.  

This one has been a fun learing experience, so lets see if I can use some of the things I've learned.

JDragon


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## reapersaurus (Mar 14, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *You know, I think I'll start working on a generic 3E game of death community website, to explain what ... tips that I've learned from running this one.*



I'm curious - 
in hindsight (with 20/20 True Seeing vision), what have you learned from running this one?

Other than not to include me, of course.  

Seriously - most of my issues with the way you've run it have been due to my opinions of some of the things you've included which have interfered with the 'sanctity' of a battle between players.

I admit that I had a different idea of how this Game was going to be run - I believed it to be a gathering of Heroes and Villians who would battle mano y mano to the death, relying on their preparation, wits, tactics, & strategy alone (throw in some lucky rolls).

I still disagree with the amount of interferance by DM actions and biased house rulings that have hopelessly skewed the results of this GoD. That was in fact the point of my last post's questions referring to cw's "flawed gimmick."

My hopes were that pointing these problems out (as many have) would lead to better Games of Death in the long run.

I wholeheartedly endorse people putting these Games on, wherever they are run, and salute any one who decides to take up the torch and run one.


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## Number47 (Mar 14, 2003)

I will absolutely partcipate in any Game of Death, if you'll have me. I don't always check the general forum, so post a link in this thread if you start a new one.

I just want to weigh in that I think a Game of Death is more fun when the DM has surprises for the characters. It also means that well-rounded characters do better, and that is a better thing overall, in my opinion. My only negative comment on this game of death is that, while all the godly interference things have been cool, occuring every round has probably been too often.


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## Saepiroth (Mar 14, 2003)

actually, i think that it's actually an extrordinarily COOL idea that all this stuff has happened in just around 54 seconds. furioso!

also, I think I REALLY prefer this sort of game. it makes 90% of the gimmick-based "SMACKDOWN!" characters unviable, and throws the field more to those who can react best with varied and imaginative tactics. for example, Hawkeye's attempt to explode Macallan's head with a tree. 

i hope someone does another one like this, but maybe set underground, or in a tunnel system,  or in a field like this but with a cave network under the ground. volcanic sections, maybe...


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## Number47 (Mar 14, 2003)

clockworkjoe's dungeon game of death held a lot of promise as an idea, but he never should've allowed followers. It bogged the system down way too much, I think.


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## Victim (Mar 15, 2003)

I think that the changing situations actually encourage more tactical play.  A broad range of character abilities and contigency plans are very valuable.  A one trick pony just isn't going to be able to deal with everything.

However, 1 or more events per round is probably too much.


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## DM with a vengence (Mar 15, 2003)

Yasumoto here.

i'd just like to say that I sent in my move a couple of days ago, and I have resent just minutes ago.  My move is in, and if clockwork doesn't post it, I blame the crappy mail server.


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## reapersaurus (Mar 15, 2003)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> *I mean, damn, it was a funny image thinking of 1 Str Jade getting absolutely plastered by arrows, but there is the cover from the people, concealment from shooting between people, cover from the force cage bars, etc.
> 
> Throw some clay pidgeons out there.  "Pull!" *



Actually, even with the absurd amounts of attacks, they barely finished her.

By my count, if it wasn't for the illegal move of Martok casting Disintigrate on Jade (6d6 damage), she would still be standing.

Damn, that little minx was hard to kill. (With Maturak's help) 
Funny that Berk was boasting about Martok's ability to dominate, and he had to rely on 75+ levels of NPC's to do his job.
 !ROFL !


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## DM with a vengence (Mar 15, 2003)

For those looking for simpler, faster, one on one games, the DnD 3E Crossroads Arena over at www.rpol.net is where I go for my daily dose of Death & Destruction.  It's not as complex as the Game of Death, but if you just want to see high level characters beat the holy living crap out of each other, it's a good place.

I go by Manos de Empuje, so if you show up, drop me a PM.


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## cool hand luke (Mar 15, 2003)

can you link directly to that game?  I can't find it over there.


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## DM with a vengence (Mar 15, 2003)

Of course.

Crossroads Arena 

Although at this time of night there's really not much going on, and I can't speak for The Void's ability to get you access right now, but keep checking.


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## reapersaurus (Mar 15, 2003)

Now that I'm not busting my hump at work, I got to look at what happened.

clockwork - Please respond point by point (anyone's welcome to give their impressions):

1) How could Martok have hired the Mercs?
5 Level 8 gith archers (effective level 10) x 2000 x 50% discount = 50,000 gp.
5 Wizards x 5 Levels x 2000 x double = 100,000 gp's.
Don't tell me he spent 150,000 gp's just to kill Jade. 

2) Jade didn't have an AC penalty from encumbrance.
The enhancement penalty to STR is nullified in the AMF. 
Does that make anyone else miss?

3) IS the effect of True Seeing (120 ft radius Sight) nullified only within the AMF, or is it still in effect outside the 10' radius of the AMF? (I kinda doubt it).

4) At least 2 archers are blocked by another archer. (BTW - which icons on the map are the archers?)
What does that do to targeting? (There's no line of sight, right?)
Does that provide cover?
Does that provide concealment?
Does any of that nullify sneak attacks? (I know concealment does)

5) The wizards had to touch the rogues for both Invisibility and Cat's Grace.
How could they move to get next to the rogues, cast the spell, then also move away to their current positions?
Shouldn't they also be in the way of the attacks?

6) A Githzerai archer has STR 10, DEX 16.
They have no STR bonus to use for Mighty Bows.
Even with point blank shot, I don't see how they are averaging so much damage from just a 1d8+1 attack (1d8+1+4d6 when Sneak Attacking, avg of 19 - they got rolls of 28, 34, 23, and 30)

Thanks for any numbered responses to these questions.


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## clockworkjoe (Mar 15, 2003)

I got Yasumoto's turn, I just haven't had time to process it. I'll do it sometime today.

Martok had enough gold to hire them. You're forgetting some things and making some bad assumptions. 

I used Jade's base AC for the attacks. (the base on her character sheet) True seeing is nullifed when you're in the AMF. 

Archers can fire two rows deep. I figured that trained archers who knew how to work with each other could avoid shooting themselves. Or that one row of archers shot, then moved so the other row could move forward and shoot. 

The first batch of wizards cast their spells then moved into the AMF, then the next batch of wizards moved into their places and then cast, and one wizard started in the spot in front of jade and then moved. 

And actually reaper, Jade had fewer hitpoints than you think. Don't forget since she was in an AMF she didn't have any hp boosting magic spells or items. 

Finally, happy St. Pat's day!


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## Saepiroth (Mar 15, 2003)

actually, i think you're supposed to apply 1/10'th to 1/4'th cover when firing past a front rank not actively engaged in melee.

not sure where i got that, but it might be something to check if they fight in ranks again. of course, it wouldn't have made a difference here. 179 is overkill for half the characters on the map. even if one or two of the shots missed, with that many second iteration hits those first big hits would still have knocked off well over 100.


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## clockworkjoe (Mar 15, 2003)

As for the damage, I used random.org to generate the numbers.  It spat those numbers out. A statistical oddity, but it happens. Notice out of 15 shots, there was not a single natural 20 or 1.  Weird things happen. Besides, one shot did 10 damage.


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## reapersaurus (Mar 15, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> Martok had enough gold to hire them. You're forgetting some things and making some bad assumptions.



I'm not the only one coming to those guesses (and yes, they are guesses, but SOMETHING has to explain the sheer # of levels hired, and high damage, invisibility, and 3 attacks - Rogues explains it pretty well)
Are you saying that they are not effective-level 10 rogues and level 5 spellcasters?
You WILL detail later exactly how they didn't cost him that much, I trust... 







> I used Jade's base AC for the attacks.



I don't mind if you tell everyone : WHAT AC did you use for Jade?
I'll tell anyone who wants what her AC is in the AMF, I'm sure everyone knows it's not too high.







> The first batch of wizards cast their spells then moved into the AMF, then the next batch of wizards moved into their places and then cast, and one wizard started in the spot in front of jade and then moved.



I still don't see how it exactly works for all the wizards, IF you forced them to come in all at once, and be placed in 5' squares as I thought you were doing.
There are only 9 square in the Forcecage that aren't in the AMF to start, and I don't think every NPC could have gotten to the spots they are placed currently and also done what they were allowed to do, but that's just small questions.







> And actually reaper, Jade had fewer hitpoints than you think. Don't forget since she was in an AMF she didn't have any hp boosting magic spells or items.



I'm aware of this, and it's good that you're keeping it all totalled up right.

Seap - 179 was not overkill in this case.

clockwork - I still don't get the damage.
Without sneak attack, they can only have 1d8+1 from PBS, right?
The mercs don't come with hand-chosen gear applicable to their level, do they?

P.S. Doesn't ANY amount of cover negate a sneak attack?


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## clockworkjoe (Mar 15, 2003)

> The rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with *concealment* or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.




concealment != cover. At most the back row archers had to hit an AC 1-3 points higher than normal. Not significant enough to change events. 

I used AC 20 for Jade. 

As for the wizards moving around for the AMF and that crap, I just said it was fine, because I didn't want to spend 2 hours carefully plotting out each merc's movement and so forth. It sounded reasonable so I allowed it.


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## Number47 (Mar 15, 2003)

Characters not in melee can effectively move through each other. I see no real problem in the wizards milling around.

Reaper, look at how I detailed what Martok must have bought. I thought I laid it down pretty clear and I don't have DM-knowledge to worry about saying anything. The upshot is that those wizards were level 4 max, probably level 3. That changes the figures significantly.


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## seasong (Mar 15, 2003)

Here's the thread for my potential game of death.

Clockworkjoe, if there is ANY advice you want to give me right now, other than run away screaming, I'm all ears.


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## seasong (Mar 15, 2003)

*Re: very interested*

cool hand luke: Check out the other thread. I've got you down for a statement of interest. You'll be the first in line if I go through with this.

Jeremy: Same for you.

clockworkjoe: A generic site for D&D3e games of death would be most awesome of you. I tried Movable Type and decided against it, however - more technical than I have time to learn right now. I'll probably be running it here.

JDragon: As per my comments to cool hand luke. Your experienced wisdom will be interesting to see in action .

reapersaurus: "Other than not to include me, of course" - if you want to play, we (you and I) will need some ground rules about what is and is not acceptable levels of complaining. You may not be comfortable with them, but I have a low tolerance, and I'd rather work that out in advance than have to kick you out midway through. Note: Yes, any rules we work out between us will also apply to others - I'm a fair Bastard Dictator .

Number47: I've linked where I'm thinking about it. I'd appreciate any comments you have there, and I will try to make sure you get in if I run it .


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## Saepiroth (Mar 15, 2003)

reaper; the mercs do come with _some_ sort of magical gear. the archer rogues pierced my DR, even if the fighters didn't.


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## Number47 (Mar 15, 2003)

I cannot believe how long I am waiting here! The suspense is killing me. I have been checking in about every half hour for two and a half days!

Clockworkjoe, are you going to incorporate Terraisms very nice NPC page?


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## Sir Hawkeye (Mar 16, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Finally, happy St. Pat's day! *




"On behalf of the people of the United States, I thank you for this bowl of shamrocks."
-George W. Bush


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## clockworkjoe (Mar 16, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *I cannot believe how long I am waiting here! The suspense is killing me. I have been checking in about every half hour for two and a half days!
> 
> Clockworkjoe, are you going to incorporate Terraisms very nice NPC page? *




I'll incorporate it at the end of this turn after everyone's had a chance to buy mercs.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 16, 2003)

What was that beast?

Well, we now know Yasumoto is evil, if we hadn't before.


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 16, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Reaper, look at how I detailed what Martok must have bought. I thought I laid it down pretty clear and I don't have DM-knowledge to worry about saying anything. The upshot is that those wizards were level 4 max, probably level 3. That changes the figures significantly. *



Yeah, I thought your analysis sounded right, and was basing my estimates off them.

The estimate of 100,000 gp is straight-out:
Gith NPC cast Cat's Grace and Invisibility.
Therefore, they HAD to be at least 3rd level, and the Gith cost 2 levels more... total of at least 5 levels in a spellcasting merc.

Cost:
5 levels x 2000 per level x 5 mercs x (double cost for spellcasters) = 100,000 gp's.

Can anyone point out the error in this guess/conclusion?
Please do - I wouldn't want wrong figures to perpetuate.


----------



## Taren Seeker (Mar 16, 2003)

IIRC, the cost for spellcasters is only doubled if they can cast 3rd and 4th lvl spells.

Also, I'd love to know how ~170 damage is not overkill to a 14th lvl PC in an AMF who's not a barb or fighter type. Judging by the AC 20 figure she's already got good dex considering she's only wearing a chain shirt. (It's mithral, right?)


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 16, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *What was that beast?
> 
> Well, we now know Yasumoto is evil, if we hadn't before. *




half red dragon lion with a few minor changes.

170 hp damage is not overkill when it barely kills the person.


----------



## reapersaurus (Mar 16, 2003)

ahh...  that's what I was missing - thanks for pointing that out, Taren.
And you'll see about the hp's when you see Jade's sheet.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 16, 2003)

hooray!


I'm buggered!


----------



## Number47 (Mar 16, 2003)

Just to let you all know, it isn't my fault my turn is taking this long. I sent in most of my action right after Yasumoto's was posted. Still waiting for a reply.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 17, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Just to let you all know, it isn't my fault my turn is taking this long. I sent in most of my action right after Yasumoto's was posted. Still waiting for a reply. *




Now it is your fault. I emailed you last night and still need the answer to finish your turn and post it.

Also, I was out most of sunday because it was really nice outside. That's why I didn't get around to the game until last night.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 17, 2003)

I still don't have that e-mail. I wonder if there's something wrong with my account? You aren't the first person to say they sent me e-mail but I didn't receive it this last week or so.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 17, 2003)

Replied to e-mail


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 17, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Replied to e-mail *




don't have it, send it again to both rdp485s@smsu.edu and contact@slangdesign.com


----------



## Number47 (Mar 17, 2003)

Sent again, and if you still don't have it, I will simply post what changes from previously sent here in the thread.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 17, 2003)

I just got a delayed email notification about the first message I sent to you. Weird.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 18, 2003)

But you have gotten my turn, right?


----------



## Jeremy (Mar 18, 2003)

*channel surfs, waiting for the show to come back on*

"Where's all the gory action?"


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 18, 2003)

real life concerns are popping up again, and will clear up on thursday. Horray for work and other crap.


----------



## seasong (Mar 18, 2003)

Jeremy: It's in bullet time, right now, frozen to near-complete stillness .


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 21, 2003)

Ok I'll have dabbil's turn up shortly. Sorry about the delay.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 21, 2003)

Both Glorg and Zed should've gotten another spell off. 1 = Free action from Astral. 2 = Standard action. 3 = Haste extra action.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 21, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Both Glorg and Zed should've gotten another spell off. 1 = Free action from Astral. 2 = Standard action. 3 = Haste extra action. *




Fixed and also I forgot to mention: mercs have rolled hitpoints, not maximum.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 21, 2003)

I figured they probably had rolled or half. Thanks, CWJ!


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 21, 2003)

move sent.

SENT TO IT'S _DOOM!_


----------



## Number47 (Mar 21, 2003)

Clockworkjoe, I'm not sure but I think you might have to review Saepiroth's turn. I think that you cannot get a cleave for tripping or for knockdown. Read the comments on his turn.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 21, 2003)

if that's the case, then i'm going to do something else rather than beat on the mercs.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 22, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Clockworkjoe, I'm not sure but I think you might have to review Saepiroth's turn. I think that you cannot get a cleave for tripping or for knockdown. Read the comments on his turn. *




Yeah, I see that now. I guess Saepiroth should just send me his turn again.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 22, 2003)

new (and wholly different) move submitted. should be quick to adjucate, though.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 23, 2003)

Saireptritgyherg 's turn updated.


----------



## seasong (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by clockworkjoe in another thread_
> somewhat unrelated, but I've decided the next game o' death that I run will be epic level but with a twist: only the player's followers (no cohorts) and recruited monsters can fight, the players and their cohorts just watch from the stands.



Hey, I want to play in your next GoD. Any chance you could part with a few details on that, like: what level of epic (or what leadership score on the Epic Leadership table), can we spend gold on our followers' equipment, and can we cast spells on the followers?

What? Why are you looking at me like that? 'M just askin', s'all...


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 24, 2003)

seasong said:
			
		

> *Hey, I want to play in your next GoD. Any chance you could part with a few details on that, like: what level of epic (or what leadership score on the Epic Leadership table), can we spend gold on our followers' equipment, and can we cast spells on the followers?
> 
> What? Why are you looking at me like that? 'M just askin', s'all... *




Probably I would create a system like Shadowrun like this:

Order the following categories in terms of highest value to lowest value. The highest value category gets the highest bonus while the lowest value gets the worst score. 

Categories: bonus to PC Level, bonus to leadership value, bonus wealth, special advantage

The caveat being that all PCs start out with a base level of 25 or so and then each PC would figure out whats more important, PC level, followers, wealth, or unique advantages (used to get special prestige classes and weird crap like that)

What kind of followers you get depends on your character and so forth. 

Obviously the PCs could equip their followers and cast spells on them. They can do anything they want other than directly influenece the fight in the arena.


----------



## seasong (Mar 24, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> Categories: bonus to PC Level, bonus to leadership value, bonus wealth, special advantage



Cool 


> The caveat being that all PCs start out with a base level of 25 or so and then each PC would figure out whats more important, PC level, followers, wealth, or unique advantages (used to get special prestige classes and weird crap like that)



Heck, that's easy: wealth, then followers. Everything else will be secondary . 







> What kind of followers you get depends on your character and so forth.
> 
> Obviously the PCs could equip their followers and cast spells on them. They can do anything they want other than directly influenece the fight in the arena.



So we would not be building the followers ourselves?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 24, 2003)

you build the followers, but for example, only orcs could easily recruit hundreds of orc warriors. Or an epic necromancer could create and control hordes of undead foes.


----------



## seasong (Mar 24, 2003)

Heh. I have tons more questions, but I'll stop hijacking your thread now .

On with the killing!


----------



## Number47 (Mar 25, 2003)

So, does Rale Hawkeye get a real turn finally? I hope he doesn't miss it.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 25, 2003)

On my next turn, I intend to succeed where Hawkeye failed.


----------



## Sir Hawkeye (Mar 25, 2003)

Kliing Macallan, or moving?

BTW,Does anyone know if Martok's merc are inside or outside the forcecage?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 26, 2003)

Sir Hawkeye said:
			
		

> *Kliing Macallan, or moving?
> 
> BTW,Does anyone know if Martok's merc are inside or outside the forcecage? *




Err, they're pretty much all inside the cage. They're all visible too. 

The only 2 mercs outside the cage on your side of the map are Maturaks


----------



## Victim (Mar 26, 2003)

I'd run away to avoid the pin cushion effect.  Mass archers are bad.


----------



## Tory Adore (Mar 26, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Mass archers are bad. *



Massed archers are just an easy target...
(crud - reapersaurus again, wife's ID)


----------



## Victim (Mar 26, 2003)

Tory Adore said:
			
		

> *Massed archers are just an easy target...
> (crud - reapersaurus again, wife's ID) *




Yeah, except I can't use my area attacks in the AMF.  Also, I think it'd be a bit rude rude to ask my mercs to attack other githzerai.  Besides, if they're rogues, they might evade an area attack and if they're fighters, they've probably got enough HP to take it.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 26, 2003)

The get sneak attack damage. They are almost definitely level 8 rogues. If I were you guys, I would attack then take shelter on top of the forcecage.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 27, 2003)

Things is heating up. hee-hee.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 27, 2003)

Jarrod moved while he was invisible, I just didn't post it because, he's well invisible.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 27, 2003)

I was just inferring his location from where his mercenary appeared.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 27, 2003)

The mercenary moved after appearing. Maybe a double move, judging by the fact that she didn't attack.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 28, 2003)

ok, cool.

uh... that really _isn't_ Icitrik is it, right? i mean, he really sickens me now, after what he did... There's not much I would put past him doing, just for the sake of bothering others.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 28, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> *ok, cool.
> 
> uh... that really isn't Icitrik is it, right? i mean, he really sickens me now, after what he did... There's not much I would put past him doing, just for the sake of bothering others. *




huh?


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 28, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *huh? *



 i don't like theives. 






...I'll shut up.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 28, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> * i don't like theives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Don't take it out on him in the game and he won't do the same.


----------



## Saepiroth (Mar 28, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Don't take it out on him in the game and he won't do the same. *



 I don't intend to, though it is important to note that our alliance has been dissoluted. He's already broken off contact with me, though I can't say I miss it.


----------



## Number47 (Mar 30, 2003)

What's the holdup?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Mar 31, 2003)

Reaper's wanted a lot of clarifications regarding the mercs and I gave him a little extra time to figure out what he wanted to do. Icitirik also had a lot of questions and his turn is now done, so I'll do them back to back. 

Of course considering how complicated both of their turns are, it'll take a while to process them


----------



## Number47 (Mar 31, 2003)

I wonder if this means that Therron is out of the Maze? That would be cool.


----------



## Number47 (Apr 1, 2003)

There's a spell that can bring someone back to life with a casting time of only one action?! WTF? What level is this spell?


----------



## Victim (Apr 1, 2003)

The spell only lasts for 1 minute per level.  It's not exactly the number one way to raise people from the dead.


----------



## seasong (Apr 1, 2003)

...unless you're in a Game of Death. Then it rawks.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 1, 2003)

The spell is revenance from magic of faerun, 4th level cleric spell. It can be dispelled or suppressed in a AMF.

Note that the mercs attacked Maturak because he isn't officially allied to Therron and Jade and his AMF prevented additional mercs from teleporting into the forcecage so as far as they know, Maturak is an enemy.


----------



## reapersaurus (Apr 1, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *The spell is revenance from magic of faerun, 4th level cleric spell. It can be dispelled or suppressed in a AMF.*



I feared you might be looking at it that way (since you stopped the druid from getting her out of there, she's dependant on the AMF now).

What do you guys think?
The way I read Revenance, it is a limited duration effect, very similar to how we talked about the Horn of Blasting being an effect that is not suppressed in an AMF.

The text specifically states that the target is not dead anymore. They are alive, not undead, for the duration of the spell.
So it wouldn't make sense to have them be dead in an AMF, then come back to life out of the AMF.

In fact, rules-wise, since there's a loss of spells when the spell occurs, there's no way that the effect could be reapplied.

Does anyone that has read Revenance agree?
What do you think of this approach, clockwork?


----------



## Number47 (Apr 1, 2003)

Any spell with a duration is dispellable and suppressed by AMF, unless specifically mentioned otherwise in the spell description. My argument for the Horn of Blasting was that, if it were a spell, it's duration would be _instantaneous_ and would cause a condition that might persist, just like a fireball instantly damages you and the damage persists.

If this spell lists a duration, you are in tough luck. In regards to that, clockworkjoe also made the correct ruling on forcecage. It does cover the floor.


----------



## Saepiroth (Apr 1, 2003)

what book is Revenance from? I'd like to look it up for myself.


----------



## duder (Apr 2, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *The spell is revenance from magic of faerun, 4th level cleric spell. It can be dispelled or suppressed in a AMF. *






> _Originally posted by reapersarus_
> *Originally posted by clockworkjoe
> The spell is revenance from magic of faerun, 4th level cleric spell. It can be dispelled or suppressed in a AMF.*




im guessing it's in magic of faerun


----------



## Saepiroth (Apr 2, 2003)

duder said:
			
		

> *im guessing it's in magic of faerun *



 i dunno it's kind of ambiguous


----------



## Number47 (Apr 2, 2003)

Comment on Icitrik's turn...

True strike is personal only. It cannot be cast on another.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 2, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Comment on Icitrik's turn...
> 
> True strike is personal only. It cannot be cast on another. *




well, it didn't really matter since they pretty much needed a natural 20 to hit with or without the true strike. meh. tired. spent 3 hours on that turn alone.


----------



## Jeremy (Apr 2, 2003)

That's because you have to create so many NPC's every turn and because now you have 40 characters to adjucate instead of 10.

I thought the leadership armies game was next GoD?  

Someone needs to enlarged blade barrier that entire area or horrid wilting it or something so we can get back to the combatants fighting instead of the armies of gith.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 2, 2003)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> *That's because you have to create so many NPC's every turn and because now you have 40 characters to adjucate instead of 10.
> 
> I thought the leadership armies game was next GoD?
> 
> Someone needs to enlarged blade barrier that entire area or horrid wilting it or something so we can get back to the combatants fighting instead of the armies of gith. *




Actually making the NPCs didn't take so long. It was figuring out all the weird rules and processing the dispel magics on Jarrod.


----------



## Jeremy (Apr 2, 2003)

Do hirelings *poof* when their PC dies?  So if Icitrik were to die the 28 mercs he just summoned would go away?


----------



## reapersaurus (Apr 3, 2003)

I just realized how crushing it is that clockwork decided that my mercs couldn't teleport into the Forcecage that's choked with Berk's mercs.

Since there's only one merc, and if he's ruling that AMF suppresses the effect of Revenance (which would make Jade "die" again, from what I don't know), than there's nothing I can do, since he also doesn't allow delays or readied actions in his Game.

I need to be able to have my turn happen the same turn as Maturak's, OR have Maturak (if he wants) to delay until after Martok's turn, or this combination of rulings will render Jade unable to move (even though she's alive now).

clockwork - can I delay my initiative, as least?
Not get multiple actions in a turn, as was the fear before - just refocus and change the initiative order?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 3, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *I just realized how crushing it is that clockwork decided that my mercs couldn't teleport into the Forcecage that's choked with Berk's mercs.
> 
> Since there's only one merc, and if he's ruling that AMF suppresses the effect of Revenance (which would make Jade "die" again, from what I don't know), than there's nothing I can do, since he also doesn't allow delays or readied actions in his Game.
> 
> ...





I told you that there was only 1 space in the forcecage and you could see it for yourself anyway. I don't know what you were thinking. But this is not my fault. 

Furthermore, you could have come up with a better plan. I'm honestly surprised you didn't hire a single fighter merc to grab Jade, a wizard nearby to touch them and dim door/teleport out of the forcecage, then sell some of jade's stuff to buy a cleric to cast revenance from the scroll. That's just one example. But you had many different possibilities to explore to get jade out and bring her back. What happened is because you created the plan. I didn't just sabotage you. 

I'm going by the rules in regards to revenance. I am not house ruling it just to screw you over and don't try to make it sound like I am.  

As for delaying your init, I don't see what's wrong with that now, but you won't have that option until it gets to your turn. However, since I already ruled that I'm not going to allow delaying/readying actions, I'm not sure. I'll let the other players decide if I should change my ruling on that because  changing that rule could drastically alter some players strategies, and I don't want to be unfair to everyone. 

Finally, I'm going to redo Icitirik's turn to some degree. I forgot true strike was personal range only. Also, the kobolds could cast it three times each because they were hasted by the orcs mass haste and had the astral quickened spell.

edit: mercs disappear when their employers do. Easier for me.


----------



## Number47 (Apr 3, 2003)

I am for allowing initiative change. Without it, you cannot ready an attack to disrupt a caster, or counterspell.

Also, please try not to redo Icitrik's turn too much. He gained a lot of information about would and would not work against Jarrod. Maybe just change the spells to some other kind of buff or attack?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 3, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *I am for allowing initiative change. Without it, you cannot ready an attack to disrupt a caster, or counterspell.
> 
> Also, please try not to redo Icitrik's turn too much. He gained a lot of information about would and would not work against Jarrod. Maybe just change the spells to some other kind of buff or attack? *




that's what i;m doing. he's not getting another shot. just a revision of his current turn to make it kosher.


----------



## reapersaurus (Apr 3, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *I told you that there was only 1 space in the forcecage and you could see it for yourself anyway. *



I'm not intimating that you sabotaged me purposefully.

You could have told me (told all of us from the get-go) that you wouldn't allow mercs to teleport into the same square.
That would have affected my strategy quite a bit.

Unless I missed it (I read your posts regarding mercs at least 10 times over the week prior to my turn), you never said that.

All I could surmise from your posts was that they couldn't be summoned outside of the Forcecage.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 4, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *I'm not intimating that you sabotaged me purposefully.
> 
> You could have told me (told all of us from the get-go) that you wouldn't allow mercs to teleport into the same square.
> That would have affected my strategy quite a bit.
> ...




I sent you this 3-29 



> As for your action, you can't teleport into a square occupied by someone
> else (no flying mercs neither) so there is only 1 apparent valid square open
> in the forcecage, 102,73. Mercs teleport in at the same time as well. The
> first merc you hire will teleport there, then the others will appear right
> ...


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 5, 2003)

Finally updated ICitirks and Therron's turn. As soon as I get Ancryx's turn we'll be back on track. Sorry about the long delay. This week has been busy.


----------



## Berk (Apr 6, 2003)

I personally am all for delayed actions and such but that is just because I have a strategy that relies on it. But whatever makes it easier for you clockwork is fine with me personally. 



> There's a spell that can bring someone back to life with a casting time of only one action?! WTF? What level is this spell?




It's 1 round casting time actually.

Still think it's funny that Jade will drop dead everytime she gets into the AMF.


----------



## reapersaurus (Apr 8, 2003)

There should be an Obscuring Mist covering up the area.
Map isn't updated.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 10, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *There should be an Obscuring Mist covering up the area.
> Map isn't updated. *




Waiting for Maturak to send me his turn so I can figure out how much of it will be blocked by the AMF.


----------



## Number47 (Apr 11, 2003)

Are you planning on integrating the Merc page done by Terraism?


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 11, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Are you planning on integrating the Merc page done by Terraism? *




if he updates it. I'm spending enough time on the game as it is.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 12, 2003)

UH-OH 

somebody dieded on us.


----------



## reapersaurus (Apr 13, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *There should be an Obscuring Mist covering up the area.
> Map isn't updated. *



There should be a Silence in the Forcecage, also.


----------



## Saepiroth (Apr 13, 2003)

I'm very  because i had a great trick for insuring my survival all ready.


----------



## Berk (Apr 13, 2003)

> There should be a Silence in the Forcecage, also.




Didn't that dink off the cage and land outside inside the AMF?


----------



## reapersaurus (Apr 13, 2003)

Berk said:
			
		

> *Didn't that dink off the cage and land outside inside the AMF? *



clockwork had it do that because he didn't know that it could be cast in an area.
He said he'd look it up - my turn took him a lot of time (2 weeks ago), and he just hasn't updated it yet, I'm sure.


----------



## Berk (Apr 13, 2003)

> clockwork had it do that because he didn't know that it could be cast in an area.




ahhhhh.


----------



## Number47 (Apr 15, 2003)

Well, I can't post a turn until after Yasumoto. Just to help quicken things along, though, I will point out that Yasumoto cannot hide this turn if he is still raging. He can stop raging, but then has to suffer the penalties. See the description of rage under barbarian in the PHB.


----------



## Number47 (Apr 17, 2003)

How's Yasumoto's turn coming? I would really like to send in my own before I leave for vacation for tomorrow.


----------



## Number47 (Apr 17, 2003)

Thanks for posting that right away! Two quick things. Was the damage reduced by stoneskin, and can you adjust hit points lost with consideration of the seven temporary hit points going first?

I will have a turn e-mailed to you sometime today or tonight.

*EDIT:* Does Glorg get an AoO on Yasumoto? He does have reach and True Strike cancels concealment penalties.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 17, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *Thanks for posting that right away! Two quick things. Was the damage reduced by stoneskin, and can you adjust hit points lost with consideration of the seven temporary hit points going first?
> 
> I will have a turn e-mailed to you sometime today or tonight.
> 
> EDIT: Does Glorg get an AoO on Yasumoto? He does have reach and True Strike cancels concealment penalties. *




I took stoneskin and Glorg into account.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 18, 2003)

Wait, I forgot, does blinking mean that yasumoto can sneak attack no matter what?


----------



## DM with a vengence (Apr 18, 2003)

That's the way Yasumoto was set up, sneak attack 24/7, which was particularly why I wanted to drop Dabbil's Displacement.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 18, 2003)

DM with a vengence said:
			
		

> *That's the way Yasumoto was set up, sneak attack 24/7, which was particularly why I wanted to drop Dabbil's Displacement. *




ok, going to redo damage


----------



## DM with a vengence (Apr 18, 2003)

Thanks, that damage seemed a little low.

That's a lot better.


----------



## Number47 (Apr 18, 2003)

Wow. Yasumoto must have moved over 150 feet to get to me and still full attack. That's some move rate! Of course, I guess it really isn't that hard to get if you're a monk.


----------



## Number47 (Apr 18, 2003)

I knew there was something I was forgetting about. My animated tower shield is facing due south, giving me 50% cover from Yasumoto and negating the sneak attacks after all. Possibly not hitting me? I pointed is south in round 2, never moved it afterwards. In round 6 or 7, there was some flavor text that I pointed it into the wind, but that is only flavor because we never knew which direction the wind came from (and I didn't include that action in the "rules version" of my e-mail). Unfortunately, it also means that I didn't get my AoO on Yasumoto.

I have to leave for my vacation real soon here. Clockwork, if the sneak attack damage is negated, I want to orient my shield NW after my turn. If the sneak attack damage stays somehow, I orient it SE (100% cover from Yasumoto). That is a free action. Other than that, my turn remains as I e-mailed it.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Apr 19, 2003)

can't update until i pay my hosting bill or something. does anyone know someone who works for nomonthlyfees.com ? I forgot to pay my annual bill and they didn't send any reminders so it may be a while before the game can continue. I just hope they didn't delete any data


----------



## Jeremy (Apr 21, 2003)

Damn. Messy.  Another one bites the dust....


----------



## Victim (Apr 22, 2003)

When will we see Saepiroth's and Yasumoto's stats?


----------



## DM with a vengence (Apr 22, 2003)

*Yasumoto Bayushi*

Here he is, the feasome Yasumoto Bayushi.  If I were to do this again with a similar character I would.  
A) Trade out Luck of Heroes for Expert Tactictican
B) Get a better AC and Con
C) Get True Seeing
D) go with an archery or thrown weapon route.  IIRC, all the benefits of blink apply at range, so I could've pinged people without having to get close
E) Potions, potions, potions.  This guy isn't going to last beyond 20 rounds at the extreme end, so take single shots over expensive use/day.

Yasumoto Bayushi
Human Male Rog 13/ Rgr 1/ Brb 1
CE, Ares

Str	14+4	=18 +4
Dex	18+2+6	=26 +8
Con	15+1+4	=20 +5
Int	10	=10
Wis	10	=10
Cha	10	=10

Hit Points 175=13*6+10+12+5*15 (205 raging)
Armor Class 24=10  +5  +8  +1
	   (base)(armor)(dex)(deflection)

Fortitude	19=8+5+5+1
Reflex		22=8+8+5+1
Will		12=4+0+5+3

BAB +11/6/1

Initiative +12

Speed 30*.75=22 (land) or 90*.75=67 (fly)

Miss Chance: 50%, 20% for Ghost Touch or See Invisible, 0% for both.

Attacks
Sword of Subtly (Main Hand): +21 or +25 (sneak attack), +19/14/9 or +23/18/13 (sneak attack).  1d6+5 (1d6+9+7d6 sneak attack) +2 raging, 17-20/2x crit.  20% miss chance.
Sword of Subtly (Off Hand): +19/14 or +23/18 (sneak attack). 1d6+3 (1d6+7+7d6 sneak attack) +1 raging, 17-20/2x crit.  20% miss chance.

Skills			
Disguise			26=16+0+10
Hide			38=17+8+15-2
Intimidate		18=18+0
Listen			18=18+0
Move Silently		33=17+8+10-2 
Spot			17=17+0
Swim			16=17+4(6)-5
Tumble			22=16+8-2
Use Magic Device	16=16+0

Feats:
1 Rog	Improved Initiative
1 Rog	Luck of Heroes
2 Rgr	TWF
2 Rgr	Ambidexterity
2 Rgr	Track
3 Brb	Weapon Finesse: Shortsword
6 Rog	Weapon Focus: Shortsword
9 Rog	Iron Will
12 Rog	Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15 Rog	Improved Critical: Shortsword

Special Abilities
Sneak Attack +7d6
Improved Evasion
Slippery Mind
Uncanny Dodge (dex to AC)
Uncanny Dodge (can’t be flanked)
Uncanny Dodge (+2 against traps)
Favored Enemy: Humans
Rage 1/day

Items
Ring of Blinking				30000
2x Sword of Subtly			30620
Celestial Armor				25300
Robe of Blending				10000
Gloves of Dexterity +6			36000
Belt of Giants Strength +4			16000
Amulet of Health +4			16000
Cloak of Resistance +5			25000
Ring of Protection +1			  1000

Potion of Sneaking			    150
2x Potions of Cure Serious Wounds		  1500

Merc: Kobold Druid 4

Total				            199570


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## Victim (Apr 22, 2003)

I don't think we were supposed to post items, since people can loot bodies.


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## clockworkjoe (Apr 22, 2003)

too late. Oh well. i'll post speiewroweth tomorrow.


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## DM with a vengence (Apr 22, 2003)

D'oh!

Well, nothing that Dabbil wouldn't have pleanty of time to find out later, what with being the only person in that corner of the map.


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## Number47 (Apr 24, 2003)

Who are we waiting on?


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## clockworkjoe (Apr 25, 2003)

was waiting on my schedule to clear up but now things have changed . Now time for Macallan to act.


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## Number47 (Apr 25, 2003)

Very amusing turn for Ancryx. That kobold spellcaster, Scholar, is in deep ****.


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## clockworkjoe (Apr 25, 2003)

oh yeah, if i haven't answered your questions about something post them here or email me again.


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## reapersaurus (Apr 28, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *was waiting on my schedule to clear up but now things have changed . Now time for Macallan to act. *



Are we still waiting on Macallan?

(aaaaaand a bump.

can't believe we need to bump this...)


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## Saepiroth (Apr 28, 2003)

Oh yeah, I forgot to post mine.

Here's mine with the items gone.



> Name; Saepiroth
> Player; David Lee
> Class; Fighter
> Level; 15
> ...


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## Number47 (Apr 30, 2003)

clockworkjoe, for Macallan's turn, you posted three hits, but only listed two sets of damage. Should Harsel take a little more damage?


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## clockworkjoe (May 1, 2003)

Oops, forgot that. I'll fix it later. 

Also, Battle Royale the novel is out http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...103-3656858-7734207?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Go get it. It is good, although not as good as the movie.


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## Saepiroth (May 2, 2003)

There's a sequel in the works now, did you hear?


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## clockworkjoe (May 2, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> *There's a sequel in the works now, did you hear? *




yes


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## Number47 (May 3, 2003)

ggggaaaammmmeeee

mmmmoooovvvvviiiinnnngggg

ssssoooo

sssslllloooowwwwllllyyyy

....


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## Sir Hawkeye (May 4, 2003)

Ack! I exist! I exist! 

I've moved my e-mail to doctorfunk@attbi.com about the same time I forgot to check the game for a while. Why don't I at least have a "does nothing" snippet? 

Damn my incompetent hide!


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## clockworkjoe (May 4, 2003)

Sir Hawkeye said:
			
		

> *Ack! I exist! I exist!
> 
> I've moved my e-mail to doctorfunk@attbi.com about the same time I forgot to check the game for a while. Why don't I at least have a "does nothing" snippet?
> 
> Damn my incompetent hide! *




email me with turn ASAP. 

also, this warrior would so kick all of your asses if he were in the battle

http://www.mediocreminds.com/files/Star_Wars_Kid.wmv

http://www.mediocreminds.com/files/Star_Wars_Kid_Remix.wmv

(From SA Forums)


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## Saepiroth (May 4, 2003)

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> *http://www.mediocreminds.com/files/Star_Wars_Kid.wmv
> 
> http://www.mediocreminds.com/files/Star_Wars_Kid_Remix.wmv *



 IT'S DARTH HAM!










...Wait, he looks a hell of a lot like me.


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## clockworkjoe (May 4, 2003)

Saepiroth said:
			
		

> * IT'S DARTH HAM!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




we also would have accepted Dork Maul, Darth Girth and Darth HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH


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## Number47 (May 6, 2003)

Please remember to revisit the damage from Macallan's turn.


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## clockworkjoe (May 6, 2003)

This is pretty much finals time for me (last one is on may 15). So, I'll keep updating but don't be too surprised if it takes a while. I'll do macallan's damage and everything tonight.

In case you can't tell, when you run a game like this, it takes a back seat to a lot of real life concerns.


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## Number47 (May 6, 2003)

Don't forget to also square everything away with seasong in the other GoD.


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## clockworkjoe (May 16, 2003)

SORRY SORRY SORRY SORRY SORRRY 

game is updated


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## Number47 (May 16, 2003)

Wonderful. Glad to be back to the bloodshed.


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## reapersaurus (May 17, 2003)

who's turn is it?
did you catch up with email questions to players?


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## clockworkjoe (May 17, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *who's turn is it?
> did you catch up with email questions to players? *




Norman's turn i believe and I think I have but i could be wrong.


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## Number47 (May 20, 2003)

I feel bad that Norman missed his turn. It pretty much spells his death, I think.


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## Berk (May 22, 2003)

*bump*

lalalalalalala, waiting for page to load


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## reapersaurus (May 22, 2003)

In case you didn't get my couple of emails asking questions about my move this round, clockwork, could yous check your email and let me know?

Is it Therron's turn yet, BTW?
And are you emailing people when it is their turn anymore? (I haven't checked my home mail today yet...)


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## clockworkjoe (May 24, 2003)

i am emailing people for their turn but sometimes people don't get then. Also, I just answered your quesions Reaper.


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## reapersaurus (May 28, 2003)

I'm just waiting for clockwork's response to Therron's first action request, so I can finalize his actions this round (finally! It's been kinda strange actually pondering a 'move' with Therron after 6 months...)


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## reapersaurus (May 30, 2003)

umm....    clockwork?


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## JDragon (May 30, 2003)

I'm wondering if Clockwork and Seasong have run off to do a game without the rest of us. 

JDragon


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## Saepiroth (May 31, 2003)

He's still postin' on SA... I think he just dreads the sheer amount of paperwork he has to look forward to when he gets back here.


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## Number47 (Jun 2, 2003)

Just wanted to post a link to a discussion for my homebrew game of death. No promises so far, but discuss.

Number47 GoD


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 3, 2003)

Well, I've found out that having a full time job just doesn't give me enough time to run this game.  

So I've decided to give the game some sense of closure at least. It's not the best solution, but I can't devote enough time to it. 

Here is a zip file of my notes and stuff on the game. It is a 681k zip file. right click and save as to get it. 

http://www.slangdesign.com/gawdgame.zip


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## Victim (Jun 3, 2003)

Here's my character.  I don't think the spell duration and HP totals were completely up to date.

-----------------------------------------------

Maturak Thundersworn

human male 1/2 dragon

AL NG
Patron: Zeus

Ex Monk 2, Fighter 2, Sorcerer 1, Dragon Disciple (T&B) 10

STR 26 +8
DEX 16 +3 
CON 18 +4 (22+6)
INT 12 +1
WIS 12 +1
CHA 12 +1

Spd 30, fly 30 (good)
Initiative: +12 (+7 AMF)

Attack +10/+5 base
melee +17/+12
Spiked chain +22/+17 (+18/+13 AMF)
Adamatine Greatsword +19/+14 (both)

ranged  (+12/+7 AMF)
"Thunderbolt" javelin +17 (?)

Dmg: chain 2d6+17 (+12 AMF)
     javelin 1d8+13 +1d6 electrical, +1d6 sonic (+8 AMF)
     Greatsword 2d6+10 (both)

AC 23(21) touch 13(13) flat footed 20(18) -1 size, +4 natural, +7/5 armor, +3 dex
HP 124+ [90 (+60 AMF)]

F +13 (+19/+17)
R +6 (+11)
W +12 (+13)

Feats:

Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon: spiked chain, Quickdraw, 
Improved Initiative, Fly-by Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Large and in Charge (S&F)
Improved Flight (MotW)

Concentration 13 +19 
Spellcraft 8 +9
Knowledge: aracana 8 +9
           heroes and villains 2 +3
Listen 12 +13
Tumble 8 +12
Spot 8 +9
Speak Language: Draconic

Stunning attack
Imp. Unarmed Strike
Deflect Arrows
Simple, Martial, all armor, and shield proficiency
Breath Weapon 1/day 6d6 lightning DC 18, 5x5x60 ft line

Special Perk: Gnome Artificer contact

Sorcerer Spells:
Per day
0: 5
1: 11

Known:
0: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
1: Shield, True Strike

Stuff:

2k Heward's Handy Haversack
29.35k Mithral Breastplate +2 of Moderate Fort (75%)
.325k MW Huge Spiked chain
3.5k Dust of Disappearence
7.2k 3 uses of Dust of Sneezing and Choking
8k 2 rings of counterspells: Greater Dispelling, Dispel Magic
50k "Thunderbolt" +1 returning, distance, shocking, screaming javelin
4.4k Gloves of Storing (for each glove)
16k Amulet of Health +4
.9k 1 potions of heroism
9.3k Adamantine +2 Lg Greatsword
1.5k 2 potions of haste
36k 3 Vibrant purple ioun stones of spell storing (Antimagic Field x1, Heal, 1 empty)
2k? Skittish Boots +5 initiative - Kaupaer's Skittish Nerves (MaoF)
.5k 10 Tanglefoot bags
1k 20 healing salves (T&B)

22k Cyber-Dragon megahyperultimate pnuematic augmentation exoframe Mk VII
  Bull's Str, 49 charges, level 3
  Cat's Grace, 50 Charges, level 3
  Expeditious Retreat, 49 charges, 1
  Obscuring Mist, 50 charges, 1
  Spaces used: Belt, Bracers, Cloak, Vest

NPC spellcasting fees:

1.98k = 3 x 10 x 11 x 6 for the Heal, and 2 AMFs in the ioun stones
1.6k = 2 x 10 x 20 x 4 for two level 20 good clerical Greater Magic Weapons placed on 
the javelin and spiked chain - which were then placed in the gloves of storing to freeze the durations
.8k = 10 x 3 x 5 for dispel magic + 10 x 6 x 11 for the Greater Dispelling in the ring of counter spells
1k = 10 x 6 x 12 for Contingency + 10 x 4 x7 for Solid Contingency



145 GP for rope, rations, sacks, etc - standard gear
200 gp

Effects running:

Contingency that produces Solid Fog, "when I'm caught off guard in a dangerous battle.

Game updates:

HP: -66 (118 or 148 outside AMF)
Expeditious Retreat: 6 rounds
Bull's Strength 3 hours (1800 rounds)
    STR 26 +8 (29 +9)  
	Melee: +18/+13
	Spiked Chain +23/+18 or +19/+14 (2d6+18 or +13)
	Greatsword +20/+15 (2d6 +11)
Javelin damage goes to +14 or +9 plus other effects.

Antimagic Field about 110 minutes so 1096 rounds


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## Number47 (Jun 4, 2003)

Well, you've done it to me twice now. This is two games of death you started and abandoned now, clockworkjoe, even after your many promises that you would see this one out.


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 4, 2003)

n/m


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## reapersaurus (Jun 4, 2003)

Number47: I applaud you on calling clockwork on his *hit.

It would be easy to be apathetic and accepting of failure, and irresponsibility, and selfishness, but you guys might guess : I'm not one of those guys that accepts being blown off and having a game destroyed by one person.

clockwork gave promises. He gave assurances, and criticised me and others when we pointed out some warning signs.
He freely admitted that he was indulging his own gaming, therefore his selfishness and laziness caused6 months of work by over 15 people to be dashed.

man, what a piece of work, to be that inconsiderate.

_I_ want to know who he personally knew before the game - he promised that he'd reveal that once OUR opportunity to be prejudiced had passed.
What a joke.

clockwork, you've lost ALL credibility.

Don't tell me that it takes very much time to run the Game once it's running - it was YOUR mistake to put the mercs in, which I TOLD YOU would destroy the game.

Hell, I'd ask Number47 (or anyone else) if they want to pick up from clockwork, clean up his mess, and actually run some gaming for people on the boards.
They couldn't do a worse job.
I'd detail all the things that clockwork did, including rulings mistakes (not House Rules - _mistakes_) that hosed any true competition going on, but it's not worth it, and noone wants to hear it.

Noone wants to hear THIS either, I'm sure, but after 6 months of getting !ucked, I have the right to say a piece of my mind after he quits right as my character gets to start playing.


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## Number47 (Jun 4, 2003)

Please don't use those almost-swear words on this board. I find it offensive when people try to bypass the Eric's grandmother rule.


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## JDragon (Jun 4, 2003)

I agree with Reaper on this one.

This just sucks. 

Sounds like Seasong's game is going to get started finally thou, and I think I have my first target, assuming he shows up.  

JDragon


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## Number47 (Jun 4, 2003)

The damn thing is, I think I had a pretty good chance for winning. Maturak and Macallan might have been tough for my particular character, but I had no fear of anyone else.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 4, 2003)

47: Would you prefer I use "stuff" and "screwed"?
If so, just imagine I used them.

And after looking at your character, I really don't see how you'd survive one round vs. Therron.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 4, 2003)

JDragon said:
			
		

> *Sounds like Seasong's game is going to get started finally thou, and I think I have my first target, assuming he shows up. *



How could clockwork in all good concscience play in Seasong's GoD, if he said he doesn't have enough time with his RL job (and his online gaming, and his online forum-time, etc)?


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## Number47 (Jun 4, 2003)

30 foot reach, trip attack, dispels, domination


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## reapersaurus (Jun 4, 2003)

You're welcome to try all of them....


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## Saepiroth (Jun 5, 2003)

Ah, well. I suppose I could see him getting ready to flake off as the paperwork built up.

That's a lesson for me; minimize paperwork to 20 minutes of dice rolling and some typing. Too much kills the game. I just bet those mercenaries are what did it...


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## JDragon (Jun 5, 2003)

"I just bet those mercenaries are what did it..."  Saepiroth

I agree, but he did to him self, he didn't have to introduce them in the first place.

JDragon


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## reapersaurus (Jun 5, 2003)

clockwork wasn't running this GoD for us - he was running it for himself.
once he got his lollies out, messing with the combatants and nullifying strategy (switching the Wishes, etc), then actually creating mercs as NPC's with 36 point buy, he left us high and dry.

the last thing clockwork wanted was the players actually being in control of what their character's end result was.

once he satiated his manipulative instincts, there was nothing in the game for HIM, so he started slacking, big time.
It was just a matter of time till he punked out competely, utterly losing credibility.


----------



## reapersaurus (Jun 5, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *30 foot reach*



shouldn't that be 20' reach?
Can you trip somebody who's flying?
Therron can Rage for 1 more STR than Dabbil, Dabbil has 3 BAB on Therron, both are Large.... 

if we ignore what Jade can do, and ignore the Horn, and ignore the fact that Dabbil would crap his pants when Therron Great Ki Shout's (runs away, dropping his weapon 50% chance), than Dabbil might have a chance.

Damn, it'd be fun to see how it plays out, though.
Game of Deaths are the only way to see for sure how character builds stack up.

I like the work you did with Dabbil, BTW.
The bard's a nice touch.
Too bad he's not immune to fear.


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## Number47 (Jun 5, 2003)

I didn't get my Righteous Might out yet. Size Huge, 30 foot reach, higher strength. Therron would've crapped his pants after getting hit with transmute metal to wood and repel wood.


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## Jeremy (Jun 5, 2003)

I don't suppose we can get a Dabbil on Theron match over on the Fight Club boards using your guys existing inits and current statuses but removing everyone else but you two from the map?

Shouldn't need too much of a moderator for that much.  Just play it straight with what you've got left and see what happens?


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## reapersaurus (Jun 5, 2003)

cool.

I still don't see how that would help against Therron, though....
a wave 10 ft high isn't too hard to get over.

Jeremy - that's a fantastic idea - 47, would you like to try?
Personally, I'm itching to get SOME fun out of the character I made.
I think many of us had some interesting characters, it's really too bad to see all that work go to waste.

Who would want to continue combatting in some fashion?


----------



## Victim (Jun 5, 2003)

I'm rather disappointed with the ending thus far as well.  It'd be nice to continue it.  Of course, since we're now looking at each other's character sheets, there might be a problem.

I still think Maturak would have done fairly well.  For example, it looks like Therron would attack starting at +13 (+15 charging)inside an AMF and would have a 13 AC, though rage and ki frenzy would have an effect.

BTW, Ki shout and Greater Ki shout would probably be ineffective because of the level restriction.

The mercenaries seemed to come out of a random generator, too.  My guys have a seemingly random collection of feats and weapons, though I asked for archers.


----------



## clockworkjoe (Jun 5, 2003)

the most important thing I think to remember is that I NEVER thought it would take this long to finish. I thought level 15 characters would pop each other off rather quickly and thought it would end by march at the latest. *If I had thought it would last this long I never would have started it.*

Truth be told, I technically have enough time to run this game, but I just can't muster the energy anymore. Passively surfing th net during breaks at work and slow times is far different from wrestling with 3E rules and the only time I ever get to work at this game was after I was done working. I'm too tired mentally and emotionally to deal with the rules, the players, and the errors. I just can not sit down, look at a turn, and process it now because I know no matter what I do, I will screw a ruling up, I will probably piss some player off and it would take several more months to finish it. Also, I'm tired of being accused of being an evil person for trying to run a free online game. Fatigue got to me. I just looked at a turn and dreaded it because it got to be painful to process it. 

As for the specifics, the mercs didn't take much time to run once they were generated, although in hindsight, I just should have generated a dozen specific high level mercs that players could have hired and then they acted independently but that's a minor detail. What takes a lot of time is to figure out what each munchkined out character can do to one another. Let's take Therron's last turn as an example

*Therron will reappear in square x100,y73 (the square below Gw).

This is his plan:
To use Blindsight spell to locate Martok, then kill him.  
Seriously, though, he has to know what square Martok is in to send a
specific action, complete with square coordinates and all.
There may be Reach issues, or Charge distance, etc.
What exact squares are not in Silence (or what characters are not currently
in Silence)? By my calcs below, it should be just the 4 corners, but you
earlier figured what squares would be free when Martok cast a spell in the
Forcecage, I'm sure, so whatever you decided is fine

I'll detail his current attacks and defenses:
AC 46 if charging (with +3 from Barkskin and +7 from Shield spell)
5 attacks (3 from BAB, 2 from TWF/ITWF) at +37/+37/+32/+32/+27
Damage is 2d6+47 (offhand damage is 2d6+43 on 2 attacks). 3 of these attacks
are by his Lion's Shield, which is an Energy Draining shield (DotF), which
also causes an Enervation effect with each hit. Also, Therron will cause the
Lion's Shield to attack on its own 3 times at any target within Reach
(probably on any mages or archer that are still standing).
Damage is multiplied by 3 when used in a charge attack, and Therron can
perform a full round attack at the end of a charge.
Finally, I am planning on him using a Great Ki Shout (save DC=33) as a free
action at the end of the attack, IF there are any targets that would be
affected (i.e. any survivors left standing that aren't in a Silenced zone. I
think it does penetrate an AMF, since it's an EX attack, if memory serves,
but I can check on that if you want, or are interested).

If this is enough info to post Therron's action, than do so, but I'd prefer
if you replied with Martok's coordinates, then I can choose any potential
targets in addition to Martok that get hit, and also he can has a partial
action from haste that I need to decide what to do with (I'm hoping to be
able to have Therron cast Teleport on himself and touch Jade's body).
He also has a partial action that he COULD get from using one of the
Doomwarding charges, but I need to know the success or failure of his
intended actions before deciding to use it.

There are 4 icons that seem to be my NPC's : that matches my tally: as I
read it, Thornwhisper (the Druid with Land's Womb) is alive, as is Cleft
(cleric that cast Restoration), and Dotta (cleric that cast Lesser
Restoration), and Dorto (level 1 merc).

And I finally got time to calculate it, so I wanna write down before I
forget, that a 20 foot cube has a 34.64 ' diagonal at its longest.

Let me know what your thoughts are before posting. I will be here tomorrow
and can reply quickly, I'd wager.

reaper*

Therron has several different attacks and powers, that act differently according to several different criteria, including active spells, the terrain, the target's defenses and so forth. His plan also branched off depending on how certain initial acts performed. So calculating all of this, especially looking at how each player's magic items and spells would defend and interact with the other's attacks, double checking the relevant books, and rolling the dice, adding it up, and writing it down for the entry will take well over an hour and this assumes by the time I get to it  I am clearheaded and alert, and don't make any mistakes in the rules, overlook something, or misread something. And I can look forward to this many more times. 

I'm sorry it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to, but this will be the last time I run a game like this. I really don't have the time to spend on something that ultimately no one benefited from (or at least it seems that way) and probably could have been better spent writing or on something else. This is a game on the internet, not something vitally important. Don't take it so personally, because I don't. I just thought it would be neat to try out. 

And in my defense, my game has lasted longer than pretty much any other GoD and has had more turns, more action, more spells, magic, feats, books and rules allowed, NPCs, and everything else going than any other GoD ever. So could you cut me some slack? It's not like I posted the rules, accepted characters, and then did nothing else.


----------



## reapersaurus (Jun 5, 2003)

clockwork, that was the most communicative, clear, and best writing I have read from you this whole Game.
If you took one-tenth as much clarity and time in explaining your words during the Game as you did there, than that would have gone far.

Your posting of my last email is a great example:
You never replied to my requests for Martok's position, so I had to post a conditional action, that attempted to make you aware of all the things my character could do that would be coming into play in the action. I thought I detailed it rather well, and would help you to know the relevant abilities (something I took great pains to do to make it easier on you the whole Game thru).

All Therron's action would have initially taken from you would have been a quick glance-thru to see if you were going to house rule any of my proposed powers, and then tell me what square Martok was in. Then I would have described exactly what Therron's path of attack was, and total up all the relevant powers and modifiers  FOR YOU!.
It's not like I sprung Therron's (DM-weakened) abilities on you - you had 6 months to get exposed to them, and I always detailed them when used.
And one complication stemmed from your not detailing the Silence zone, like I requested for over a month.

Finally, it was made clear during the Game that you don't know 3E rules to the extent that is required to run a GoD.
This contributed to a huge number of problems, and combined with your desire to inexplicably House-Rule, probably was the main source of problems in the Game.

In your defense, the Game DID see some memorable play, and some people got to exercise their characters. That is always nice to see. On a personal note, I wish I could have joined in the fun in that regard, but since you plopped Martok so close to Therron/Jade, we never got to see Therron take out multiple people quickly, which I told you from the very beginning was my intent - quick kills, which is ironic that you say now that you wanted.

clockwork - WHO did you know IRL beofre the Game started?


----------



## reapersaurus (Jun 6, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *I'm rather disappointed with the ending thus far as well.  It'd be nice to continue it.  Of course, since we're now looking at each other's character sheets, there might be a problem.
> 
> I still think Maturak would have done fairly well.
> 
> BTW, Ki shout and Greater Ki shout would probably be ineffective because of the level restriction.*



So would anyone else like to continue the fight from here, knowing the inherent problem with everyone knowing what each other can do?

I agree that Maturak might be a tough kill, but I think that his lack of healing is a killer.

Therron loses much of his bonuses when he enters the AMF, but Maturak is pretty easy to hit (AC 23?). I think Therron would hit a lot. He does double damage, and the knockback still applies. Unless Maturak can keep tripping him, Therron should be able to chip him to death.

But I'd LOVE to see it, win or lose - that's the idea of a Game of Death, right?


----------



## Number47 (Jun 6, 2003)

Unfortunately, my character was designed with a lot of subterfuge. Why else have a hat of disguise. Having everyone look at his character sheet really ruins it. Not to mention, I am really done with this. I am so tired of hearing about how gawd-awful powerful Therron thinks he is. I never want to hear that name again.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 6, 2003)

than you are a wuss, number47.

you've been punking me this entire "Game", and now that it comes to an offer to put your money where your loud mouth is, you cop out with "you know what my character is".

I don't need your character sheet to battle - if you want initiative, i'll give it to you.
Just give me Jade and Therron, and he'll beat you, I wager.

I have expressed how powerful I THINK Therron is, but as you all know, I haven't had the opportunity to use him and prove that.

If any of you would like to try your hand against my GoD character, and prove my assumptions wrong, than you are more than welcome to.

If you are afraid to challenge me because you think (or know) Therron would win, than you are welcome not to.

But don't use an excuse to dodge a proper challenge - stand up like a man and admit if you think Therron would beat you - I'd do the same if I lost to you, or if I punked out cause I didn't want to have everyone see you beat me.


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## Number47 (Jun 7, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *...put your money where your loud mouth is...*




My loud mouth? I have been very civil this entire time, unlike some others.

I really have no intent on spending more "quality time" with you. Print out all the characters and play around with them at home, then come back and crow all you want about how you defeated Odin by running a game against yourself.


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## Darkness (Jun 7, 2003)

Take it easy please, reapersaurus & everyone else.

Thanks!


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## Victim (Jun 7, 2003)

I'd like to pit Maturak against Therron.  He's one of those ideas that seems really good on paper.  But in play I was (somewhat unjustifiably, as it turns out from the sheets) afraid of him getting shredded when I moved to attack.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 7, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *My loud mouth? I have been very civil this entire time, unlike some others.*



You're right - you were civil, unlike others : on the boards.

In email, you were not.  

After thinking more about it, I'm pretty convinced that my characters would have won this Game of Death.
On paper, it seems rather convincing (to me) that Therron and Jade would take the crown this time.
And since 47 is unwilling to prove that his character can compete, than the challenge is open for anyone that would like to join in and prove what we can only surmise from paper.

I made a thread in the Fight Club Forum, and it is for anyone that would like to continue the Game from here.

We could pick up with Round 11 (after Therron's, and Icitrix's moves (if he's playing)), or we could pick a square and join Battle anew.

We can just run it a gentlemanly agreement game, but in reality we would need someone to send our proposed moves to, so we could have a record of what was actually done vs. what we post.

I nominate for the Arbitrator's role to be played by Jeremy.
It was your great suggestion, and I really don't see how it would take that much time (if that's an issue with your schedule)- just someone to say "Yes, he told me that's what the actions he did were."
I think the participants can mutually agree to any rules adjudications that _might_ crop up - I don't see any game-breakers, though I very easily could be missing some.


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## Saepiroth (Jun 8, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *After thinking more about it, I'm pretty convinced that my characters would have won this Game of Death.
> On paper, it seems rather convincing (to me) that Therron and Jade would take the crown this time. *









I was going to win, and you know it!


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 10, 2003)

oh and I met Martok about a few months before I started the GoD, as he joined my real life gaming group. I didn't give him any favors in the game, as he ran a game where he killed all the PCs off and the rest of the time we played together under a different DM. I didn't pass along any secret information or anything like that, and I certainly didn't give him any tips on how to make/play his character. He did what he did because he was close by and because he didn't like what he read on the boards. He moved a few months ago and I haven't talked to him since. 

Also, in hindsight, I would advise anyone else against running one of these games, because you're probably going to waste a lot of time and piss a lot of people off and that's about it.


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## Number47 (Jun 10, 2003)

The game seemed to still be going well. I don't have access to what people were emailing you, but it seemed like everyone was doing well, except for certain very vocal people. If anything, the lesson I draw from this is not that one shouldn't run a Game of Death, but that one should be very discriminating about who plays and who doesn't.


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 10, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *The game seemed to still be going well. I don't have access to what people were emailing you, but it seemed like everyone was doing well, except for certain very vocal people. If anything, the lesson I draw from this is not that one shouldn't run a Game of Death, but that one should be very discriminating about who plays and who doesn't. *




a lot of people had lost interest in the game.


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## JDragon (Jun 10, 2003)

I was still checking on a daily basis.   

But I guess that means I just have to much free time on my hands.  

JDragon


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## reapersaurus (Jun 11, 2003)

*In conclusion*

47: actually, the game was progressing somewhat, if you remember, even having had all the rules problems that clockwork caused with multiple characters (not just me).

When it took a week to have one move go off, when clockwork had the email in advance, it shouldn't be a surprise that some players lost interest.
And who cares if a player drops? A Game of Death has only one REQUIRED participant, and that's the "DM".

clockwork called off the Game - there's no mystery what killed it.

And I'd like to point out for the record that exactly what i said from the beginning (and got such crap over) turned out to be true: that clockwork gave preferential treatment (remember the dropping tree incident? gee, i wonder how Martok got placed right next to Therron & Jade?) to Berk, and that my hunch was right.
If that doesn't clear things up right there, than I don't know what would.

Unless someone wants to see a long list which details clockwork's abuses (which he ironically admits on the concluding post), I wouldn't contest my incrimination of clockwork's bias during this 'Game'. There's plenty of 'evidence'.
I'm assuming noone wants to hear it, so please don't argue what was made clear over the months.

I'm also assuming that all players but Victim concede the loss, since they are unwilling to prove their character's superiority in an unmoderated, sportsmanlike Gladiator Fight.

It's too bad - there looked to be some fun characters that you guys made, and at least some of them got exercise.

I salute all Gladitorial Games, and all efforts towards a fair contest pitting a player's rules-knowledge and character-generation prowess.
There was some good play, and good kills in even this game.
I continually enjoyed 47's in-character phrasing, and even Dr. Midnight's (Norman's). Yasumoto and Maturak continually entertained, even while battling.

Like the last Game of Death, there were some high points, unfortunately, neither was completed.
Ah well, maybe seasong's will finish (or start  )


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## Victim (Jun 11, 2003)

I wouldn't say that anyone is conceding defeat.  Some character concepts are more suitable in a melee struggle than in a one on one match.  If you contain Therron long enough to kill several other characters so you win on points even if Therron squashes them.  Or a character could let attrition wear down a more powerful combatant.  Besides, it'd be confusing to have more than one match going at the same time, so when I volunteered, some may have opted out.  

Even with some of the problems that appeared, like arguements and rules errors, I had a good time.  Some of the characters really surprised me.  I never thought that Doctor Midnight's character was a nimblewright, for instance.  That was a cool idea.  

And, err, "I'm the one you'll fight!"


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## green slime (Jun 11, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> *The game seemed to still be going well. I don't have access to what people were emailing you, but it seemed like everyone was doing well, except for certain very vocal people. If anything, the lesson I draw from this is not that one shouldn't run a Game of Death, but that one should be very discriminating about who plays and who doesn't. *




hear hear.


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## green slime (Jun 11, 2003)

Clockworkjoe:

I am aware how much time and effort you had to put into the organisation and running of your game.

I for one appreciate the effort.

However for me the fun was spoiled by calls of DM partiality. Having people unjustly accuse the poor overloaded DM at every move, is just ludicrous. That combined with some really snotty attitudes from certain players that I interacted with during the early stages of the game killed all enjoyment of the game for me.

As a player, everyone feels hard done by sooner or later. But as a player, in this type of game, you have to have the maturity to just suck it up. Sure, it sucks, sure, you wonder "how in the hell did he know this?" Most probably they didn't. They just got lucky.

In Love, War and GoDs, some people get lucky breaks. In a game of this character, it is the ability to exploit lucky breaks that make a winner. Not just a twinked out bucket of cheese. You loose by making a mistake, not by your clever strategy. Having a clever strategy just means you are more likely to be in a position to utilize those lucky breaks

It is a game. And in EVERY GoD, the DM has made unfortunate mistakes. They (the DMs) are ONLY human. Ranting and raving about DM manipulation and scheming is just not fair to the DM.

When I had applications out for my abortive GoD, you have no idea the amount of work just to get the majority of the potential players to follow the rules as declared. 

Some such as Dr Midnight, and Number47, did send in characters that abided by those guidelines as laid down by the DM, or only required minor tweaking. Gaming with these fellows is a) always fun b)always a challenge c)always civilized. Hats off to you two!

Others just disappeared, never answered multiple emails to correct their characters, others kept on trying to add on magical items that were strictly off limits, miscalculated stat generation (never too low), granted themselves more feats than permitted, tried to squeeze in PrC's, classes and races which were off limits and spent more money on equipment than was given.

It really is a real *censored* being a DM for some people around here. Just some simple rules to follow, and they can't manage. No thanks, no appreciation of the actual work load, nor any realistic expectations on character survival. Just some inane belief that nothing bad should befall their character(s).

I knew the GoD at character level 15 was going to take a Humungous amount of time; the ability for these high level characters to avoid almost certain death with some special ability/feat/item is incredible.


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 11, 2003)

I did screw up on some rulings. However, I was not partial to Martok . If I was, then I would have advised/altered his character to be able to kill Therron and Jade in the first 3 rounds. But Martok's main advantage over Therron came from 2 spells, Maze and Forcecage, both of which are commonly used high level spells. Martok's placement was random as was everyone else's. I still think the tree was a valid ruling, as I gave most players a lot of leeway in rulings, like Dr. Midnight's Nimblewright, and I gave Macallan the more favorable interpretation of the shifter rules allowing to shift into a dragon. In most cases, I gave the player the benefit of the doubt, so I don't see how the tree gave Martok a huge advantage. 

You see the thing was that I wanted to experiment a lot in this game as you can tell. I wanted to try new things, and new situations. I'm never satisifed without some experimentation in a game. So, I came trying new things every round, which turned out to be a bad idea in the end. 

I apologize to all the good players who were left out in the end, and if there is some way I can make it up to you guys, just let me know.


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## Number47 (Jun 11, 2003)

Well, you can continue to participate and have fun in other Games of Death. I really hope you can use Seasong's to revitalize your interest and wash away these bad experiences.

I just really wish the players who didn't want you to be a DM hadn't bothered playing. I thought you had made it very clear that you were more than a judge, but an actual Dungeon Master. This what killed the fun, you fighting with players over what your role was. I, at least, came into the game knowing that you were not Mr. Ruleslawyer. I knew that there would be rules mistakes. It happens.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 11, 2003)

great, now green slime is portraying cw as the oppressed DM, who spent his efforts solely to provide us players with a Game that unfortunately had players that wrecked it.

fine.
however you want to spin it is inevitable, i guess.

What I'm wondering, is that if anybody has any questions or curiousities about some elements of characters?

The two off the top of my head are: 
1) how did Doc Midnight get to play a Nimblewright (CR 7), and add 5 HD, then add 5 fighter levels? So a 15 HD nasty (cool) construct is now an ECL of 10? Shouldn't he have had to use DM Advantage #9 : special background to play a creature?
2) How did Macallan get around the limitation of Wildshape that limits the forms to those of his HD and lower?


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## Number47 (Jun 11, 2003)

I wondered a lot of things about every character, myself. I don't have or know all the rules, so I simply trusted the DM.

Unless I miss my guess, the Nimblewright had little chance of winning. With no con, it had fairly low hit points and it couldn't recover those at all.


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 11, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *great, now green slime is portraying cw as the oppressed DM, who spent his efforts solely to provide us players with a Game that unfortunately had players that wrecked it.
> 
> fine.
> however you want to spin it is inevitable, i guess.
> ...




1. It was his special advantage if I remember correctly, and the +5 HD is balanced out by the fact he had no CON to boost his hitpoints. Furthermore, I gave him only 50k gold as opposed to 200k, which I felt balanced it out.

2. Macallan made a good case that the rules could be interpreted differently and like I said I gave most players the benefit of the doubt. 

A lot of you didn't know when I made the tree ruling and other rulings that seemed to favor one player over the other is that I made allowances for a lot of people. I tried being generous to as many people as I could without going overboard. 

Another problem I've thought about running a GoD is that 3E rules are made for players next to each other not PBEM. The DM running it needs to make a lot of house rules to streamline the game.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 11, 2003)

this is quite tragically funny.

Norman's Advantage was Fandom. In other words, he didn't even pay for the creature. And the DM didn't even bother to check his own created rules, and some of the vocal players shrug and go "Meh - no big deal."
And no effort was spent trying to estimate the ECL, as stated by clockwork that it would be. In Dragon 293, a 15 HD Shield Guardian with 48 less attribute points and no feats and weaker abilities is rated by WotC at 23 ECL (!). 
You don't use it's CON as a justification for not making the player pay for a 5 HD advancement - that's taken into account with the ECL estimation. 

"Macallan gave a good case?"
It's AFAIK straight-forward in the D&D Rules - Wildshaping is limited by HD.

I guess green slime's & number47's approach was different than mine:
I expected a fair combat, with some attempts at following rules, while they expected a slam-bang pageant that simply played lip-service to the rules and fair play, instead concentrating on the fantastical effects and stylized Arena and roller-coaster actions of the Gawds.

Actually, remembering back, clockwork even told me that he wasn't checking the entries of the other players - he singled me out for rules-checking, and even started denying me by-the-book rules after he said he hated my character concept.

So I guess the major question that should be clarified in any Game of Death from the beginning is whether or not the focus is on impartiality and correct rules, or on the spectacular.


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## Number47 (Jun 11, 2003)

This comes from a player who also got a lot of special, not-paid-for, perks. Nobody else was allowed to use Oriental Adventures, but you "made a good case for it."


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## reapersaurus (Jun 11, 2003)

no, 47: I asked form the very get-go for one PrC, and it was approved.
That wasn't an *advantage*;
just a small addition to the large host of sources of material that were included (I shouldn't need to detail the over-powered things that other players were allowed).

Everyone knew from the outset about my PrC, everyone could have used it, and it actually is quite the disadvantage having people know what class you are entering in a GoD, but I purposely wanted to be above-board and in-front about my character so there would be no statements exactly like yours which doesn't apply.

[rhetorical] Why do you bother posting a post if it's as blatantly incorrect as that? [/rhetorical]


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## Number47 (Jun 11, 2003)

You were one of the last to have a character in, thus those of us with characters already in actually couldn't use it. From your character sheet, there is obviously more than one thing from OA in it. If you want to be open about your special perks, that's your business. Others chose not to.

So you asked from the get-go to have one PrC, and it was approved. Dr. Midnight asked from the get-go to play a construct, and it was approved. Single Malt asked from the get-go to be able to shift into dragons, and it was approved.

Oh, but I guess that's somehow different.

By the way, you clearly _*did not*_ want an even match. You have hollered all over about how nobody could ever touch Therron because you used a broken OA prestige class that nobody else had access to when they made their characters.


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## green slime (Jun 11, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> * "Macallan gave a good case?"
> It's AFAIK straight-forward in the D&D Rules - Wildshaping is limited by HD. *




This coming from the player who managed to bend the rules to get in characters that were not expressly allowed to the other participants, thus gaining an advantage over other players, in BOTH GoD in which he has participated..

Having seen how much the rules would/could be bent, you then have the obnoxiousness to complain when other players gain cool abilities?



			
				reapersaurus said:
			
		

> * I guess green slime's & number47's approach was different than mine:
> I expected a fair combat, with some attempts at following rules, while they expected a slam-bang pageant that simply played lip-service to the rules and fair play, instead concentrating on the fantastical effects and stylized Arena and roller-coaster actions of the Gawds. *




You have NO IDEA about my approach, or my feelings on the subject. However one thing is perfectly clear to me. You haven’t the foggiest clue as to how much effort is required to get a GoD up and running. Ask those that have done this, and they’ll tell you.

All you as a player have to do is these few things:
1) Create a character following the guidelines declared by the DM. 
2) Check your email once daily to see if the DM has anything he wants you to answer
3) Reply to the DM’s email promptly, clearly and concisely.
And that is it.
You have many days to consider your own actions, and reactions. And you don’t even need to check the rule books to post your actions: You can always complain at the DM should he screw up your intent!

A DM has to:
1) Coordinate all the player’s characters. Checking to see if any exceed the limits as set by the guidelines. This requires answering the emails and requests of ten or more different players, in different time zones, with various jobs and study cycles.
2) At the same time as the above, set up an interesting arena for the combat to take place in. Admittedly this could be done ahead of time, but most people sort of spring this DM-ing a GoD upon themselves without much forethought, and NO IDEA of the work load. 
3) Once the game gets started they have to adequately interpret the declared actions from ten + people’s posts, not all of whom are native English speakers. This often requires answering multiple rules questions ranging from the very obscure, to the blatantly obvious. Often on the same day.
4) Check on every rule before publishing an action on the web, trying to remember each and every character’s special abilities. Explain why certain rulings were made, and admitting mistakes, preferably correcting them before someone posts actions/reactions
5) So many people have different interpretations of the rules, that accusations of “house rules” are inevitable. Spells such as _blade barrier_ come to mind. Or Tree tokens.
6) Update and maintain the website DAILY. Often requiring several hours attention each day, updating the map, writing comments to the action, publishing, making certain that it turns out the way expected. Answering the inevitable questions about; “But I have this ability…” “Did you take this into consideration….” “But in my email of the 5th I stated…”

Sure there were things in the game I, as a player had difficulty accepting. Such as the arena shifting every round. However, over time and in general, I believed these effects would have affected all players equally, or maybe some would get some unlucky breaks. Your 15th level character can’t survive an unlucky break? Complaining about this is like a losing team at the superbowl complaining about the rain. What, wasn’t it raining on the other side of the field?

Furthermore, as a player, I find the Min/max extremism rather boring to be quite frank. Instead I prefer a game of strategy. 

However to come out and accuse Clockwork of simply paying lip-service to the rules is a real unjust, ugly, and despicable thing. Think you can do better? Start up a game for 10+ people at 15th level! I dare you, reapersaurus!

So you didn’t get fair combat? What a load of horse radish! Clockworkjoe I believe did his best to follow the rules. You think you can do better. Prove it. Or else you’re just a lot of hot air!

You have moaned and groaned about how badly you have been treated in EVERY GoD you have been in. As soon as I saw your name on the players list, I knew there was going to be strife. I just wish you would either cease from participating as every DM is obviously out to kill just your character(s), or show us just how a just and fair DM should run one of these events.



			
				reapersaurus said:
			
		

> * Actually, remembering back, clockwork even told me that he wasn't checking the entries of the other players - he singled me out for rules-checking, and even started denying me by-the-book rules after he said he hated my character concept. *




Probably because it started so BLATANTLY beyond what he had expressed was the boundries of HIS GoD. If you go so far beyond the limits of the guidelines, you can hardly complain about coming under rigorous scrutiny.

Then certain rules are so blatantly stupid, that no sane DM in any game would allow them. You have to respect a DM for that. You can always console yourself with the thought that no other characters will be using that particular bucket of cheese. So it doesn’t suit your character concept? Get another! The rest of us managed to! Some of us managed to stay well within the guidelines, so if anyone should complain, it is the ones who didn’t utilize clockworkjoe’s soft spot and wheddle extra abilities out of him.



			
				reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *So I guess the major question that should be clarified in any Game of Death from the beginning is whether or not the focus is on impartiality and correct rules, or on the spectacular. *




Or whether one can terrorize the DM enough so he quits and you can then claim to have won by walkover…

Personally I believe clockworkjoe did as good a job on impartiality as he could. Correct rules: well, there is always going to be debate and the odd bad rule call. At high level, the frequency of these are liable to be greater, as the rules get more complex. The idea then, is to point out the mistake in a calm and logical manner, rather than stand around screaming “Foul!” “Unfair!”, “The DM is cheating!” However, IMO your statements are less than credible given your previous GoD behaviour of pouting and lashing out at the slightest misfortune that affects your character. Which is a shame, because if you expressed them with a greater sense of proportion, then you would actually have more people listening to your opinions.


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## Number47 (Jun 11, 2003)

Ever watch John McEnroe play tennis? A lot of calls against him were bad, but nobody ever bothered to listen to him because he was such a whiny brat.

What amazes me is that somebody who is so _obviously_ being walked all over and cheated against bothers playing. I mean, we aren't your real-life friends. If you think it is that bad, why bother? I have these horrible imaginings of how bad reapersaurus's life must be that he _goes out of his way to find abuse on the internet._ If that's the case, man, I'm sorry for saying anything mean towards you. Really, you have my complete sympathy.


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## seasong (Jun 12, 2003)

A quick comment.

Some of the people commenting here are in my GoD. I don't want spillover from here - I will not tolerate this kind of personal invective in a game I intend to be fun for all involved except the ones who get their tails kicked in.

I understand that there is a lot of bitterness about how the game ended, and I understand that contests of the intellect tend to cause otherwise sane, intelligent people to behave like a steroid-pumped jock who just watched "his" cheerleader visit a restaurant with the opponent's Mascot... but I will continue to insist on sportsmanship in my game.

-seasong


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## Number47 (Jun 12, 2003)

I, as a player, will continue to remain courteous and sportsmanlike in Seasong's game of death.

My characters, however, will backstab, cheat, taunt and kick people while they're down.


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## seasong (Jun 12, 2003)

Number47 said:
			
		

> My characters, however, will backstab, cheat, taunt and kick people while they're down.



I would expect no less. You're just lucky I'm not playing .


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## Number47 (Jun 12, 2003)

What do you mean by that?


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## seasong (Jun 12, 2003)

Well, if I was _playing_, I would be _winning_.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 12, 2003)

well, since a couple people who actively dislike me have been blatantly obtuse, and incorrect, I'll list out what a couple people obviously missed, and explain how off your assumptions are, when i get a chance (I'm working now).

green slime - there have only been 2 DM's for GoD's : 
Doc Midnight and clockwork.
That's hardly a representative sample from which to come to conclusions about MY 'inabilities to deal with a DM'.
If you would just stop your harping, going back to years ago with Doc Midnight's GoD, and let it go, than perhaps you would open up your eyes and read what I'll type, and you too may see what I will prove to any onbiased observer.

Here's a preview:
green slime is incorrect about the timing - I posted my request for using the Singh Rager (powerful, but not a broken PrC in most people's eyes) well before the cutoff for characters.
Any OA you see in my build was forced upon me as a weak substitute for the core classes, which clockwork decided to deny me.
Don't you dare blame ME for including any OA stuff and getting a benefit from it - having to substitute the weak Shaman class for a cleric for no fair reason (roleplaying reasons? Give me a break) is NOT an advantage for me, so I'd appreciate you get your facts straight before ranting about me and my abilities to make clockwork drop the game against his will.


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## Number47 (Jun 12, 2003)

Macbrea ran a game of death, which I played in. I don't remember if reaper was in it or not. Funny thing is, I was the one who was accused of going over the top. It was, in fact, the very reason that nobody allows higher-level scrolls. I learned from that game how to be a better participant, and not even needing to weaken a character to do so.

By the way, reaper, if the Singh Ranger is comparable to other PrCs, why did you need to have it so badly? It was clearly outside the rules. Couldn't you have chosen another concept, one that was actually allowed under the rules? If you were so hobbled by clockworkjoe who was mean to you, why play? That is what I still cannot understand, so I still just pity you.


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 12, 2003)

*



			but most people sort of spring this DM-ing a GoD upon themselves without much forethought, and NO IDEA of the work load.
		
Click to expand...


*

Quoted for emphasis and the truth. Although now that I think about it, probably a GoD could be feasible if the only fighting happened between level 1-3 characters, like if the fighters were the followers of epic level characters duelling for their masters honor.


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## green slime (Jun 12, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *green slime - there have only been 2 DM's for GoD's :
> Doc Midnight and clockwork.*




Incorrect. Macbrea ran a GoD, which you didn't participate in. Macbrea too suffered DM burnout. It IS tough DM-ing one of these.



			
				reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *That's hardly a representative sample from which to come to conclusions about MY 'inabilities to deal with a DM'.*




I wasn't talking about your inabilities to deal with a DM, I was talking about how you somehow seem to feel you are the only one singled out unfairly. 



			
				reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *If you would just stop your harping, going back to years ago with Doc Midnight's GoD, and let it go, than perhaps you would open up your eyes and read what I'll type, and you too may see what I will prove to any onbiased observer.*




My "eyes" are open. You may have a point or two buried in some of your harsh statements about the DM. HE himself admitted he made mistakes. EVERYONE makes mistakes. You just have to try and get on with it anyway. However, vitriolically attacking the DM will not attract more DMs willing to stick their necks out, to provide you and us with the entertainment we seek. Nor does it create sympathy for your cause, whether it is just or not.



			
				reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Here's a preview:
> green slime is incorrect about the timing - I posted my request for using the Singh Rager (powerful, but not a broken PrC in most people's eyes) well before the cutoff for characters.
> Any OA you see in my build was forced upon me as a weak substitute for the core classes, which clockwork decided to deny me.*




The thing is, as I see it, the DM has a responsibility to see to it that players all enter the gaming field at a somewhat similar level. If you find a loop hole in the rules, and create a character that will obviously win by default, or is so obviously more powerful than the others, it is well within the role of the DM to say "Congratulations!  But not in my game! Please change this or that."

To do otherwise would seriously detract from the fun of all the other players. Which is one reason why _Wish_ has never been allowed.

I admit, I know absolutely nothing about the timing of the creation of your characters in clockworkjoe's game. Which is as it should be. However I do know you feel hard done by. Another reason for holding all the players strictly to the creation guidelines, with *final approval* by the DM. 



			
				reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Don't you dare blame ME for including any OA stuff and getting a benefit from it - having to substitute the weak Shaman class for a cleric for no fair reason (roleplaying reasons? Give me a break) is NOT an advantage for me, so I'd appreciate you get your facts straight before ranting about me and my abilities to make clockwork drop the game against his will. *




I didn't BLAME you for including OA stuff, I find it funny that you include OA stuff, and then complain about some of the other player's abilities which they were allowed in with. It all comes down to judgement calls on the side of the DM. I can *guarantee* you that *every* player feels hard done by in a GoD. "Why did this happen?" "Why this ruling?" "Why me?" "How?" are thoughts every player has. 

I do not "actively dislike you", I dislike the way in which you repeatedly show complete disrespect for the DM, who is not in this for his own benefit, but to provide US ALL with some entertainment, as best as he can. This attitude towards someone who has spent *hours* every day of their valuable free time only to be repeatedly insulted, really, really, gets my rile up. 

As for calling people obtuse when they disagree with your opinion... sheesh.

Finally; When can we see you DMing a GoD?


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## reapersaurus (Jun 12, 2003)

green slime said:
			
		

> *a bunch of horrendously-inaccurate stuff*



Let me prove how wrong you are in this post, green slime:

originally posted by clockwork on Nov 22nd, 6 full days and 5 pages of posts before the game started:







> That's true, I'm not that worried about balance. I just don't want to get overwhelmed looking up obscure feat/spell/item X in 20 bazillion books over and over.
> 
> And I looked over the rager. He's basically a lawful barbarian with some extra goodies. Not that interesting.
> 
> If you REALLY want to use him, type every rule about the class(including the Ki shout feat) that I would need to run him without having to look at OA in your sheet. I don't want to refer to that book everytime you do something.



I did exactly as he asked, going out of my way to detail everything, so as to save clockwork the voluminous amounts of time that are obviously required to run a GoD.

green slime, you pointed out all the effort that goes into a GoD, then ranted about unless I run a GoD, than apparently I'm unqualified to state my opinion about how another GoD was run. 

I respectfully disagree.

I have explained previously about how much time clockwork cost me with his actions during my character build time, and nobody's been concerned about my time invested, and why's that? Because I chose to play - nobody forced me to want to have fun in a fair contest to the death.
Similarly, why should I be giving clcokwork unqualified thanks for jerking our chains for 6 months?
He chose to run the Game, nobody forced him to, he took that upon himself as something he wanted to do.

Once he got what he wanted out of it, he dropped us all.

Now, you're right in that I could offer to run a GoD.
However, I'm not a DM nor a graphics person, so the map and story aspect would not be my strong suit.
My strong suit is knowledge of the rules, and that's what I THOUGHT a GoD was about (it's not exactly roleplaying, guys).

Apparently, that's not what other people approach a GoD like.
And that's fine -we SHOULD be able to have different approaches. However, when I get my opinion across, I've been personally attacked numerous times. Why am I expected to respond thoughtfully, or else I'm a difficult player, but other people viciously attack me with impunity?
Do you think it was easy to continue to respond maturely to the crap thrown my direction for months?
It wasn't, let me assure you, but I chose to be the better man and state facts and quote what has actually been said, etc. 

Why would I bother if it's so much work, 47?
That's a good question.
Because the prospect of a FAIR, properly-arbitrated game of death that pits the skills of PLAYER VS PLAYER is so appealing to me, that I will go to great lengths to attempt to find any semblance of one.

I firmly believe that seasong's GoD IS such a thing, and I hold great trust based on his communications during character creation that he is an honest, and critically-thinking, impartial DM who most importantly has the right approach in mind: that the GoD is not about him, and how much fun he can have, but it's something that he wants to do for  the players, and gaming in general. 

About running one : I actually don't think that a online-based GoD is very viable for this kind of endeavor, however.
If I was to run one, it would be a scheduled event, in a chat room with private channels where all participants would show up at an appointed hour, and then play would happen rapidly, and be done in about an hour.
In addition, there;s no way I'd allow mages - characters that can cast spells cause 80% (my estimation) of rules problems and complexity.
It would also be low level, since the impact of magic at higher levels is so absurd as to minimize the effect that a well-constructed character has on the outcome : it becomes what magic items you have, not about the character.
I've said that a 4th level contest between melee-based characters, run in a chat room (preferrably in-person, at a table) would be complete-able.

It's funny that clockwork's last post comes to about that same conclusion - I posted that opinion over 2 years ago.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 12, 2003)

green slime said:
			
		

> *The thing is, as I see it, the DM has a responsibility to see to it that players all enter the gaming field at a somewhat similar level. If you find a loop hole in the rules, and create a character that will obviously win by default, or is so obviously more powerful than the others, it is well within the role of the DM to say "Congratulations!  But not in my game! Please change this or that."
> 
> To do otherwise would seriously detract from the fun of all the other players. *



Funny you mention this point, slime.

I'll quote my email to clockwork after he said NO to my inclusion of MoF's Spelldancer, even after he approved it multiple times up till then:
a snip from his email:







> So prove me and the others wrong. And don't whine about how I should have told you earlier that I wasn't going to allow this or that.  I have over 1,000 pages of rules to look at. I can't consider every nightmarish possible. So give me a break and stop testing my patience and good humor.



a portion of my reply, proving my compliance with his demands:







> 1st off, and most important, I don't need all the by-the-book rules stuff I included to have a satisfying Game.
> If you don't want something I put in, than throw it out. If you think it will undermine your game, or make the game less fun, than by all means, throw it out - I'll make do with what you allow.
> I think I've been pretty clear that if you don't feel comfortable about a rule from the sources you allowed, than say so, and I'll remove it.
> 
> ...



 So you see, I did exactly what you are saying I should have.

However, for your information, the Singh Rager is not a loophole, or abusing anything.
As I quoted last post, everyone knew that clockwork approved the Rager, and that I was interested in it.

47: I needed the Rager cause I was planning on a shield-charging paladin-type. 
And it wasn't "outside of the rules", as I showed.

There is a big difference between clockwork approving one more PrC for everybody to use, and him allowing Midnight to get a ECL 23+ creature for 10 levels, and no Advantage cost.
There's likewaise a big difference to allow Macallan to disregard the restriction on Wildshaping which keeps it balanced. (Hell, that one ability alone is far more powerful than anything the broken Spelldancer could provide as a benefit, yet you don't see a disparity or a problem with it?)
If you don't see the differences, than I don't know what else to do to make it clear.

green slime - you seem to attribute some altruistic motives to clockwork's efforts in the game, and further attribute his mistakes as just that: Mistakes.
I do not share your opinion, based on personal experience (which if I get the urge, I will detail).
We will have to agree to disagree on that.


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## green slime (Jun 12, 2003)

Thanks for posting so eloquently reapersaursu, I knew you have a heart and brain somewhere under that rough exterior! 

However, I do not feel that I was "ranting" about you running a Game. Sorry if it came across like that.  Like I said earlier, most DM's will tell you: It requires more effort than they had considered. Once in, they really, really don't want to let it go and disappoint the players. Clockworkjoe pointed out, he had made an incorrect judegement call as to how long his GoD would last. He assumed 15th level characters would leave each other in dead piles after the first few rounds. He had no idea it would be a 6 month burden on his time.

Yes, it is obvious you have a very strong grip on the rules. However, you must be aware that there isn't exactly a long queue of people wanting to DM a GoD, and of those that do, MOST of them, will not have the same grasp off the rules as you seem to.

Should this preclude them from running a game? Should we scare other potential DMs off by going on about how unfairly we have been treated? Or should we point out the mistakes coolly, and move on? Made suggestions as to how things could be improved rather than demands? Not that you ever DEMANDED, but you get the idea.

I agree, we should be able to enter a game with the different approaches, and we should all start on a level playing field. These games and the mistakes that occur in them are themselves part of the learning process. Each game has made mistakes (the first was to allow partially charged items, the second allowed scrolls of a level far beyond the capabilities of the other players) Both of these mistakes COULD have been foreseen, and in fact were, but the DM made the call. And like it or not, in the end, if you want in the game, you have to swallow it down, get on with the game, and, after the smoke clears, post clear, rational, and concise opinions on what worked and what didn't. So we can together discuss and improve the guidelines for future games, and as an assistance to future DMs.

Part of my personal reason for GoD involvement is to discover all the little rules loopholes, and overpowered abilities, and create rules that reign them in, so that in the end, no character built using the guidelines will be obviously more powerful than another, and that it comes down to more strategy and tactics on the playing field, rather than in character design. (Character design being part of the strategy, of course).


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## green slime (Jun 12, 2003)

Reapersaurus: 

I really can't comment on the clippings from emails. It isn't like I can go back and personaly confirm what has taken place. Your email correspondence with clockworkjoe really is none of my business.

Secondly, short of reading the entire collection of your correspondence, I couldn't be in a position to comment on who said what when. It isn't like I have access to these files, nor do I want to.

However, when any argument spills over from email onto the message board, and affects those trying to enjoy the game, well, you see my point? It also affects those reading about the game, and affects their decision to participate in one, either as a DM or as a player.

Whether the Singh Rager is a WotC rule loophole (lawful raging) or not when core barbarians are required to be chaotic is besides the point. The point being, it was outside the original guidelines set up before characters were sent in. Thus some people sent in characters with no knowledge that OA was allowed in at all. So those that plea bargained got a better deal, than those that just read the guidelines and posted a character in.

During the character creation process, one cannot have a sliding standard as to what should be allowed in. The guidelines for character creation as set out prior to receiving characters MUST be maintained, and may be curtailed, should obvious errors/oversights be found.

So, what I have been saying all along is:

1) Give the DM some slack for mistakes. We all make mistakes. 
2) Treat each other civilly, both in emails and on the message board, preferably with the same courtesy you would a business correspondance (And heavens knows I'm not God's best child in this respect, so no marks for dredging up old sins)

Accusing the DM of partiality is not conducive to a good game, whether real or not. Suffice it to say, IF I felt so strongly and I was being mistreated by a DM, I would have left the game. Now I DID leave the game, but it wasn't due to clockworkjoe, but due to some rather rude emails I received from certain players. I tried to continue, but I really have no satisfaction playing with people I dislike. 

I should also point out here that you Reapersaurus was NOT one of those who sent me rude emails. I just feel you could be more diplomatic in some of your postings to the board.


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## green slime (Jun 12, 2003)

"horribly inaccurate stuff" 

What a laugh!


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## reapersaurus (Jun 12, 2003)

green slime said:
			
		

> *These games and the mistakes that occur in them are themselves part of the learning process. Each game has made mistakes (the first was to allow partially charged items, the second allowed scrolls of a level far beyond the capabilities of the other players) Both of these mistakes COULD have been foreseen, and in fact were, but the DM made the call. *



you are exactly right with much of this post.
I'm particularly impressed that you pointed out exactly the issue with the first GoD's.

I'll take this time to point out my mistake from the first GoD:
I was upset at being knocked out due to the combination of 3 factors:
1) the inclusion of a partially-charged wand that completely wrecked the power-levels of the characters, 2) my incorrect calculation of my characters hp's, that would have left him alive, and 3) an above-average set of damage rolls
and posted a couple uncalled-for posts after that.
I regret that, and got too excited about the danger and surprises that a GoD stores.

From this GoD, you can add in fickle Gawds' actions, player-targetted unstoppable kobolds, swapping Wishes, mercenaries, crushing Trees, etc.
Maybe the DM's could listen to the players when we offer the feedback that their idea might not work?

________________________________

I don't believe that players CAN start on a even level (as you mentioned), since some people simply make stronger characters to bring to a GoD than others.

I believe that if there's a DM that fits the requirements to run a GoD, than he will come forth, knowing the difficulties and tribulations and effort involved in running one - in my experience, if you have to cajole a DM to participate, it is just a matter of time until the muse leaves him, and the Game will die.
Seasong offered to run one, knwing full well the dangers, and with his solid grasp of the rules (an absolute necessity, IMO, to running a GoD), he seems fit for the task at hand.
Now, if he could just get some time to free up IRL, we could start and wonderful carnage could ensue.

BTW: why would players have sent you rude emails?


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## green slime (Jun 12, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *you are exactly right with much of this post.
> I'm particularly impressed that you pointed out exactly the issue with the first GoD's.
> 
> I'll take this time to point out my mistake from the first GoD:
> ...




I agree that we can never have an exactly level playing field. But we can greatly reduce the amplitude, and thus create a more satisfying experience for everyone.

I would agree with you on the inapropriateness of some of the elements introduced into the game, but I do think it was a brave and interesting attempt to introduce some volatility into the game, which can get static.

Noone actually cajoled DMs to run the game. But it is a bigger undertaking than most realise. So they bite off more than they can chew, and get burnt out. 

I tried to start one but got so frustrated with some of Players who signed up, who were so slow to respond to requests to update their characters, or even send one in! It shouldn't take an entire month to write up and equip a character given some simple instructions. After six weeks of chasing people, I gave up. 

A year later, I'm ready to try again. Look soon for an opportunity to enter green slime's gladiatorial competition (3.5E CORE RULES only). 

As to WHY I got sent those emails, I have no idea at all. The real shame of it was that they were emailing from a New Zealand server, and I would never have expected that from my fellow countrymen, a place which prides itself on fairplay and sportsmanship.  

Needless to say, they will NOT be participating in any game I run.


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## green slime (Jun 12, 2003)

Oh yeah, one thing, that annoys me when I'm playing a GoD, is the fact that so much information is made public about my character.

I realise this is just to ease the burden of the DM to keep a list of spell/power effects in place, but given that a large number of participants can't see or hear me, and if those that do don't have spellcraft or the like, how do the characters know I'm a psion?

Sort of blew my cover as well. Part of the idea of running around in full plate with long sword and shield: disinformation.

We really should try to deal with that, imo.


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 12, 2003)

Actually, if you look at Therron's first character sheet, he included more than just the singh rager from OA (such as the sohei class and the iajitsu skill) and I didn't really understand the implications of the spelldancer class when I first looked at it. 

And I have apologized repeatedly for not reviewing his character more in depth at first to let him know about it. I don't know what else to say about that. I don't really remember the entire exchange between us back in november and I really don't want to re-read all those emails again. Also, he could have exercised a little more self restraint in his character creation if he didn't want to spend all that time remaking it.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 12, 2003)

you make a very good point of order:
that publicizing the ffects that are on a character does completely change the strategies involved.

I actually think it reduces the fun factor, in that it's less scary to attack someone when you know exactly what effects are on.

I don't know about you, but even when I'm pretty sure I have the upper hand (say, with Therron on full buff and in position), if I don't know what effects or powers a opponent has, it's awfully scary to just up and attack someone. You never know what a player might have up their sleeve.

That's one of the reasons why I wanted a Shield-Charger this Game, so there could be some quick kills early on. I was going to start attacking the second round, and keep going till I was dead.
That's what made it even more unfortunate when of all people, Therron was Mazed. This in a GoD that people always say takes too long, and has people buffing when they should be fighting.  

One of the tough questions to answer for any GoD (I would think) is How much metagaming is acceptable?
Unless we see a custom map, that only shows us what our character would see and hear (which would be impossible), than we will know more than our characters do.


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## Number47 (Jun 12, 2003)

I don't think there is one best way to run a Game of Death. The DM simply has to make clear how _he_ is running it, and people who find that appealing play in it.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 12, 2003)

clockwork - you're right in most of that last post, and those are some valid points (except Sohei is not a critical part of the build, and I'm positive you OK'd it, and Iajutsu is part of the Singh PrC and you never apologized, nor was I looking for one), but we should probably just drop that...

I could have exercised more self-restraint, yes.
When I take up a challenge, though, I do it the best I can, and I consider it my responsibility to satisfy the requirements of the role I take up.
My role as a player was to compete effectively, try to kill people spectacularly, try to make entertaining posts, and have my actions ready when it's my turn, and provide feedback to the DM and spur on discussion from other players to share opinions and heighten involvement, so as to not have the Game flounder.

Just for edification's sake, I'll list what I believe to be the DM's role/responsibilities:
Don't dominate the game play: It's your responsibility to arbitrate as fairly as possible, and know or research the rules that are involved, so as to allow for an epic battle between min-maxed opponents.
The combatants should be the ones that dictate whether their characters live or die, not the vagaracies of DM guesses.
It is paramount that whatever happens, the game goes on. Have a reasonable turn-around time, whatever is reeasonable for that particular Game, but make sure there are no extended, repeated lapses. If a player does not respond in time for his turn, move on quickly. 

One question:
Could someone explain to me this repeated opinion of GoD's that people have mentioned - "You have to keep things volatile, or it gets boring."
I don't underatand that, because the GoD's that I've experienced were not boring in any way shape or form. As long as my character is alive, there's tons of danger and things he can do.
Just because there were some stalemate-positions late in a Game or 2 doesn't mean that that's the default behavior of a GoD.
I think that if you affect the early-to-mid rounds with volatileness that is intended to stop late-round situations, you are improperly influencing the competition that is raging early.


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 12, 2003)

I apologized in a thread at some point over the amount of time you had to spend on revisions, i would find it if I could search but i don't have that ability.


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## Number47 (Jun 12, 2003)

I can't believe my wife had to be the one to remind me! I ran a Game of Death, too! Admittedly, it was a little forgettable. Does anyone still remember commoner vs. cat?

I think there might be a perception that people are getting bored because the discussion stops. I personally checked the game four or five times a day. I think we all just ran out of things to say, is all. Just because we are hanging back quietly and waiting for our turn doesn't mean that we aren't watching avidly.


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## green slime (Jun 12, 2003)

> *reapersaurus posted
> Unless we see a custom map, that only shows us what our character would see and hear (which would be impossible), than we will know more than our characters do.*




Believe it or not, that was my intention with my game of death, the one were I got feed up waiting for certain "players" to respond.

Agladan could confirm that, as I had discussed certain aspects of how I feel a game should be run with him.


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## green slime (Jun 12, 2003)

> reapersaurus stated
> *Could someone explain to me this repeated opinion of GoD's that people have mentioned - "You have to keep things volatile, or it gets boring."
> I don't underatand that, because the GoD's that I've experienced were not boring in any way shape or form. As long as my character is alive, there's tons of danger and things he can do.
> Just because there were some stalemate-positions late in a Game or 2 doesn't mean that that's the default behavior of a GoD.
> I think that if you affect the early-to-mid rounds with volatileness that is intended to stop late-round situations, you are improperly influencing the competition that is raging early.*




There has been a tendency for staleness right towards the end, this is probably due to many factors:

The DM wants to get it over and done with (understandable, after 6 months intensive "work") Perhaps DMs should work in teams? They'd have to located geographically together, and would perhaps even have to share an email address. This would speed up certain aspects. In the last game, seperate DMs could have handled the seperate map areas, and it is always good to have someone to discuss a ruling with. It would also make meshing in with real life much easier. But Where are these two dream DMs?

Many are actually slow to start the slaying, due to overcautious behaviour during round one and two (which, because of the number of participants and the medium can take like a month or two). I fall into this category. For me, survivability is premium. Should this strategy be shunned?

During the latter part, there can be a tendancy/desire to wait until a certain spell effect wears off, before tackling the last opponent on the field. While understandable, it makes for slow moving end game. This could probably be speeded up by requiring each of the participants to send in actions more frequently (daily, twice daily?) 

But you are correct in your basic assumption that during the early to mid rounds, that there is little need to interfere with the tension. Someone usually has a nerfarious plot up their sleeve.

As a player there is far more tension, and guesswork going on than could possible be understood from an outside observer. (As soon as I saw the nimblewright illo, I thought: There's Norman!)

Some people see the GoD for its spectator value. I know Agladan feels this way. Perhaps I can convince him to post here. He likes the spectaculor changes and unpredicatable events.

BTW number47, when will we be seeing your GoD? You sort of suggested yourself as DM for one during this summer. Nearly summer now you know...


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## reapersaurus (Jun 12, 2003)

green slime said:
			
		

> * For me, survivability is premium. Should this strategy be shunned? *



Very good post.

Actually, yes, for me that strategy should be shunned, for the good of the Games.
I made it quite clear multiple times to clockwork that the only thing I wanted to do in this Game was clock ONE PERSON right away with a Smackdown-Charge, thus creating a memorable GoD play for all involved.
I didn't care if I won, I wanted to speed up the carnage and fun factor.
Then the only guy in the Game with Maze memorized 'randomly' popped up right next to clockwork's least favorite character.  

But that was my approach with this particular GoD - 
I totally understand someone wanting to come out on top.
I think my character(s) in seasong's GoD have a good chance at winning it all, unless someone does something unexpected (which is almost guaranteed).

47 : I agree that just because there's not much talking, it doesn't guarantee that there's a lack of interest in the Game, but it is a pretty good barometer IMO as to the player's intererst level.
It has held up in every GoD I've seen so far: when there are many posts, the Game is healthy and not in danger of stopping, when there are few posts, it indicates a problem.

And I certainly noticed your continual pushing of the Game, and was glad that you never gave up, repeatedly bumping the Game and doing what you could.
I was glad you bumped as much as you did, saving me from having to look even pushier (there must have been 5 different occasions I was going to bump, or ask what was up, but when I pulled up the thread, you'd already done so).


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## green slime (Jun 12, 2003)

Actually I disagree, as that would totally nerf the spellcasters: they NEED to get their short term buffs up to even stand a chance to survive.

The previous one hosted by Macbrea proved that the idea of poor, weak fighters being helpless targets for wizards was ludrious at best. (and that bards shouldn't be allowed to own scrolls  to no.47)

Forcing people into narrow strategic options is only going to reinforce certain character types (most dominantely, the fighter types, of which a buffed Cleric should be included, except even the cleric character falls by the wayside according to your reasoning).

I believe we should try to embrace as many different character concepts as possible in order to have a varied and interesting battles, as opposed to battles between similar builds. Would you really like to play in a game where 50% of the participants were Forsakers and the rest multiclassed Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/Barbarian types or shield bashing paladins?

This includes making an effort to keep the spellcasters in as well, classes which require more forethought in strategy (but not necessarily requiring more expert handling), as they are less likely to recover from a mistake or miscalculation, their resources are more limited.

As a fighter, surely nothing can possibly give more satisfaction than watching the smug grin on the arcane spellcasters face turn to horror as you split is spinal column with a single well-placed blow?


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## Victim (Jun 14, 2003)

While magic items and spells account for a large amount of the complexity in the game, I think they also add much of the strategy.  Going off class abilities, most melee characters have very few options, or at least few effective options. While magic items can sometimes overshadow innate abilities, they essentially are part of the character, especially in a GoD where you won't be caught without your items.  

I'd imagine that part of Therron's problem was that you sometimes seemed to purposely antagonize other players.  If you say that your character is an unstoppable death machine, then don't be too surprised when people try to stop you or slow you up with their best spells or abilities.  It's not in most other character's best interests if Therron goes on a killing spree, after all.  Each character you kill depletes everyone else's potential score.  If Maturak had started near Therron, I'd want to contain Therron as well.

Even though your character was approved, reapersaurus, I still think asking for an exception to the normal rules awas bad sportmanship or something.  Imagine if everyone had asked for, and was granted, an additional book they could use.  It's not as if Singh Rager is necessary to deliver a nasty shield charge attack.  Looking at your current build, the single attack from a normal charge would deal about 150 points of damage after multipliers.  That's enough to severely hurt most characters.  Since Therron would be hasted of course, he'd probably have additional actions to finish off the opponent.  In that round.  God forbid that you need 2 or GASP! more rounds to kill someone.  Of course, one round kills are pretty ideal.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 14, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Of course, one round kills are pretty ideal. *



And that, my respected opponent, was the point of the exercise.  

To cause spectacular mayhem until someone could find a way to take him out.
Remember, I only talked about how I FELT Therron was strong *after* he was taken out of the combat.
Ironic memory: I estimated how long he'd be taken out with the Maze, and I was criticised for estimating so long, when it actually took at least 2 months longer.

Oh - other people did get stuff approved, also.
My question was not about people adding things - it was about Macallan breaking the HD barrier on Wildshape, and Midnight playing an ECL 20+ creature for 10.
How did my problem with those 2 things somehow get equated to me asking, and receiving for all to see, one PrC from one source to be included?
There was an entire web page about multiple psionic creatures and powers that was added. Plus, he got an at least ECL 2 template for free, if memory serves.
That's way more benefit than I got, and anyone couldv'e taken the Rager, so it wasn't a special benefit only for me.

Just because I made a strong character with the levels I got doesn't mean I abused anything. Don't playa-hate!  LOL


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 14, 2003)

I wonder if Neverwinter Nights could be used to create something like this. A computer mediated game would probably be better than this as it would vastly speed these things up.


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## Victim (Jun 14, 2003)

I never said you abused anything.  Actually, I expected more powerful characters like Therron.  Many characters had neither exceptional offense, defense, or trickness.  I don't mean to be rude, but I'd be worried that a character like Tobias would be a liability in a normal 15th level group.  In death match against powerful characters, well too bad. 

Well, since I knew Therron was using different constraints during the game, when it actually mattered, and didn't find out about a Nimblewright or bad wildshaping until after the fact,use of Oriental Adventures stuck out.  But, considering Norman's current design, and other things Dr. Midnight has posted (in his story hour, for example), it might be fair to consider his extra ECL a handicap.  Even with several "extra levels," I still don't poor Norm would stand much of chance against Therron, Dabbil, and other top characters in a 1 v 1 battle.  Finally, for fighting type characters, equipment seems to have a bigger impact after a certain point than additional levels.  For example, after a certain point, the benefits of being a half dragon outweigh the loss of levels for a melee character.  Often at high levels, it seems that penalizing equipment is a better balancing method than penalizing levels.  What does equipment give a fighter?  Stat bonuses, better AC, magic weapons, special defenses, movement, and magical attacks.  What does a half celestial give a character: stat bonuses, movement, better AC, special defenses, and some magical abilities.  The template's abilities are more comparable to an array of items than to class levels.  So the loss of 150k GP may be worth several extra character levels.

While fun, NWN wouldn't really work for running a THIRD EDITION game.  It makes a number of rules changes that have a huge impact on the game.  Casters can't use the cast defensively option.  Trip and Disarm work differently.  Fine tuned tactical movement is almost impossible.  Characters often incure AoOs for no real reason.  The stacking rules don't work.  Also, changing your action after a certain point seems to kill the rest of your round as well.  It just doesn't seem very tactical.  

Finally, I think an optimized one round kill character is unfun for GoD.  Just as you didn't seem to have much fun after Therron was Mazed before you could do anything, a player whose character took a 500 point shield bash attack before doing anything probably wouldn't have much fun either.  If you're killing someone slowly, then they can keep playing and decide use other strategies, run away, etc.  In the end, they could still die, but they get to play the game while dying.  Of course, good strategies are hard to argue with.


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## clockworkjoe (Jun 15, 2003)

too bad about NWN. what would be really ideal would be something like fallout tactics, turn based, with the 3E (3.5) ruleset.


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## Number47 (Jun 16, 2003)

By the way, I should comment on the things that had people wondering about my character. I started the game already polymorphed, thus 8 feet tall. I had a hat of disguise, so I made myself look like me at 8 feet tall and also gave myself some nice full plate to throw off suspicion. Even though I said I was a paladin, and I really did have 1 level of paladin, most of my crunch came from 13 levels of ex-bard.


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## Twinswords (Jun 16, 2003)

Well i would like to see if jarrod could have survived a shieldbash when he was at his top. Before i got hit with three dispels.

Reaper i have his old stats lying around. Do you want to try?

Twinswords


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## reapersaurus (Jun 17, 2003)

I'd love to.
Do I get Jade along with Therron, or just have you withstand a buffed Shield-Charge?
I'd really like to see if anything can survive it (I believe Maturak has a solid chance, and we're going to find out).

Check out the thread in Fight Club, post your stats, and I'll run a sample round if you'd like : http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52719

Or you can just post the request, and I'll list what Therron & Jade would do to Jarrod - you could come to your own conclusion...


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## Victim (Jun 17, 2003)

With his current spells, I'd bet against Jarrod if he was facing Therron.  Even if he charged first, preventing the 3x damage combo attack, Therron's attacks and damage would quickly kill Jarrod, whose offense would probably wouldn't be up to the task of killing fast enough.  While Therron might have difficulty hitting sometimes between an AC around 50 and Displacement, even one lucky hit on a charge would be dangerous.

On the other hand, if Jarrod is running with an Antimagic Field or Anti-life Field, then the odds change.  Bringing up ALF and readying to counter dispel attempts would buy time to use ranged spells and let Therron's buffs run out.

Anti Life Field was another spell I'm surprised that no one used.  It prevents most melee attacks, and a couple of Enlarges will even take care of characters like Maturak or Dabbil.  I was thinking of making a Cleric archer that used the spell.  As an advantage, he'd have a ranger/fighter Deepwood Sniper with wands of Hunter's Mercy in the stands for double sniping action.  But I figured that the character would be vulnerable to super DC casters and cheap tricks like Horns of Blasting, Dust of Sneezing and Choking, etc.  

Interestingly, I think Maturak probably has good chances in 1v1 battles against any of the characters, but might have had trouble in the mass battle because his healing is inefficient or risky, he kills relatively slowly, and because any position he takes will be a compromise.


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## Number47 (Jun 17, 2003)

Kind of the opposite of Dabbil. Dabbil isn't likely to win a one-on-one against anyone, but is has a good chance overall because there is little he _can't_ do, if needed. Being able to heal is key.


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## green slime (Jun 17, 2003)

GoD isn't about one-on-one.

Its about strategy and surviving so you are in a far better position for the home stretch. All that occurs before that is just useless bravado by the doomed.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 17, 2003)

actually, green slime - that's what a GoD is about if your prime purpose is to win it.


If you just want to interject something unique to the game, or expand the milleui of GoD characters, than your intentions and approach would be different, naturally.

[/poking fun] Like maybe Tobias wanted to show incompetent a GoD character could be.[/poking fun]


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## Victim (Jun 17, 2003)

My strategy was to force things into 1v1 fights when possible.  Because my AMF protects against many things, Maturak could safely attack characters like Ancryx or Macallan.  Characters intending on interupting me would still have to get around lots of constructs, or run the risk of Maturak bailing for moment and leaving them to face a too big dragon's full attack.  Or I could mooch kills by attacking injured characters.  Once on the score board, I'd have time to retreat then heal.

Remember, based on the scoring structure of this game, being the last man standing is worth 120 (well 100, but you probably have to kill the 2nd to last guy).  That's 6 player kills.  An aggresive, quick killing character, someone who unloads AoE into a big cluster of mercenaries, or both could conceivably get enough points to win even if they are killed in the end.  And since characters didn't score points for being alive each round, a passive character that survives till the very end might be in a position that even if he wins, he loses.  Or worse, if loses, he's in last place.


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## green slime (Jun 17, 2003)

Yeah, AMF is huge. The enormous duration adds to the problem.

There are workarounds, but none of them very attractive. Too many rely on DM-whim.


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