# Farscape (No Spoilers)



## Crothian (Jun 2, 2005)

I just startyed watching this borrowed froma friend.  I am on epsiode 8 of first season as I write this.  I image I'll watch these fast as I tend to do that.  They are good so far but I'm not seeing what causes the fanticism that so many people have for the series.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 2, 2005)

For me, its all about the characters. I just grew to love them the more things went on. It especially helped back last year when Sci-Fi Channel showed all the episodes in order.

Since you're still pretty early into it, give it time and that fanticism may grow.


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## Crothian (Jun 2, 2005)

I'm not giving up.  I borrowed the first two seasons and imagine I'll go through them quickly, especially once the weekend hits.


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## Hand of Evil (Jun 2, 2005)

Characters and story, there is more going on than meets the eye, first season you are just getting to know everyone...


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## takyris (Jun 2, 2005)

I remember watching the premiere and not being wowed. In fact, I didn't tape it again. I didn't watch the show again until later in the first season, when SciFi aired a mini-marathon of Farscape when I was stuck home and trapped in a conference call in which I didn't have to speak. I watched two and a half episodes on mute with the captions on, and after that I opted to tape it again.

I think it really hits its stride in the last few episodes of the first season, keeps going strong in the second, meanders a bit in the third but ends extremely strongly, and is hit-or-miss for what  I remember of the fourth (although the good episodes were very, very good).

The first season is pretty much getting the reader used to the rules. It gets much better later on -- or at least, I thought so.


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## Rl'Halsinor (Jun 2, 2005)

As has been already stated: indepth characters and plot.  The FX supports the storyline, not dominate or be the story line.  Plus, it was different.  The producer and writers dared to create a universe that wasn't a clone of another.


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## omrob (Jun 2, 2005)

*Oh Yeah!*

I got all of those on Netflix...

IT does hit its stride at the end of the 1st season. The character development and plotline are unique  to any science fiction series I can think of off the top of my head...

The Henson company does a great job with the aliens, costuming and effects...

I think its my favorite scifi televison serial EVAR! over B5 and any Trek...

I don't call it farscape tho...

I call it the "F**k with John Crichton's Head Show!"


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## Chaldfont (Jun 2, 2005)

What I liked best about Farscape: its the AntiTrek. The writers do everything they can to keep the characters from getting along. I thought I liked Star Trek Next Generation until I saw Farscape--now I can't stand it. Screw negotiations! Break out the pulse pistols!

And there are no bumpy foreheads. Aliens look _alien_.


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## Nuclear Platypus (Jun 2, 2005)

The pop culture references are fun since those around him have no idea what the heck he's talking about like his mention of Yoda in the second episode (I, E.T.). The unusual episodes are also spiffy like the Chuck Jones-ish episode (Revenging Angel) or stream of consciousness episode (Scratch n Sniff), both from Season 3. 

Also unlike Trek, reprecussions of choices are felt later on (no cosmic reset button). While the cast is relatively stable throughout the series, noone has plot immunity, especially John Crichton.


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## John Crichton (Jun 2, 2005)

The first season starts to pick up right where you are.  It will only get better from here on out.  The last 4 eps of the season are great.  The best is certainly yet to come.


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 2, 2005)

Hmm...

I've also borrowed seasons 1 and 2 from a friend, and I've gotten about 5 episodes in. I have to admit, I had all but decided to give up on watching any more of it. It's not that I think the eps so far are bad, they just haven't grabbed me.

But if it really does pick up later in the season, I guess I ought to reconsider my position...


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## John Crichton (Jun 2, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Hmm...
> 
> I've also borrowed seasons 1 and 2 from a friend, and I've gotten about 5 episodes in. I have to admit, I had all but decided to give up on watching any more of it. It's not that I think the eps so far are bad, they just haven't grabbed me.
> 
> But if it really does pick up later in the season, I guess I ought to reconsider my position...



 I didn't like the first half of the first season much at all (I did really like the pilot, tho).  They give some cool backstory but are needed to enjoy all the later seasons.  The most important stuff starts later.  Here's a cheat sheet if you want to skip to the good stuff without being left in the dark later on.  Just watch these in order.  I've even bolded the ones that are really needed...

*01. 	Premiere*
04. 	Throne for a Loss
*05. 	PK Tech Girl*
08. 	That Old Black Magic
10. 	They've Got a Secret
*11. 	Till the Blood Runs Clear*
*12. 	The Flax*
*15. 	Durka Returns*
*16. 	A Human Reaction*
17. 	Through the Looking Glass
*18. 	A Bug's Life*
*19. 	Nerve*
*20. 	The Hidden Memory*
21. 	Bone To Be Wild
*22. 	Family Ties*

Of course, there are some things you will miss if you don't watch the whole first season.  But I didn't see the whole thing until I saw seasons 2&3 first.  Went back and watched most of them later.  I caught a marathon of the "Best of" eps that got me enough to go on so I could get what was happening later.

There are some eps that I left out that are pretty entertaining by themselves but I wanted to provide a "fast forward."  Keep in mind that many of the eps contain plots and events that don't really work until you see them referenced much later on.  Even as late as Season 4.


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## Kesh (Jun 2, 2005)

Absolutely finish out season one. If the finale of that season doesn't grab you, it's safe to drop the rest of the series.

But I'd bet good money the end of season one will make you want to watch the rest of the series.


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## PhoenixDarkDirk (Jun 2, 2005)

Chaldfont said:
			
		

> And there are no bumpy foreheads. Aliens look _alien_.




Especially the Sebaceans.


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## ddvmor (Jun 2, 2005)

Just wait 'til you get to Scorpius' first appearance at the end of season one.  Then you'll be hooked!


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## argo (Jun 2, 2005)

I'll echo what others have said: the first season is kinda slow as they are still in their "shake down" phase, it picks up at the end of season 1 and seasons 2 and 3 are some of the best TV ever made.

As for what specifically makes the show so good, in no particular order: dynamic situations, the characters constantly change with no "reset button" nonsense, excellent FX (espically the mupets), really good fight scenes and strong character driven plots.  Oh, plus they have a wicked sense of humor!  Look for the eipsode "No Need for Crackers", pure genius I say!

Later.


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## KaosDevice (Jun 2, 2005)

As a huge 'scaper I'd just like to toss my 'frell yeah' in for this series.  My big connect on the show was how they deftly mixed stand alone episodes with over reach story arc episodes. They did some nice trade offs between continuity and the one shot fun episodes that people love now and again. Plus a great mix of angst, naughtiness and humour just really made it the show to beat. I was sad to see it leave the air after PK Wars...


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## Look_a_Unicorn (Jun 3, 2005)

You think it can't get any better- that the writers can't think of anything new to entertain and titillate you with- that you possibly couldn't grow to appreciate the characters any more than you currently do- and you are continually proven wrong...

Right up till the last episode


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## Ruined (Jun 3, 2005)

I'll mirror what the others have said - the first season gets better and better by the end. I didn't start watching it at the start ("Henson? I don't want to see more Muppets in Space!"), but I caught the last four eps of Season 1 on a Saturday marathon. And there I was, instant Farscape Junkie.


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## Aeson (Jun 3, 2005)

For me it was the pop culture comments, the interesting characters, humor and great visuals. Of course there are some hit or miss episodes what show didn't have those except DS9. I think there were more hit than miss episodes.


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## Crothian (Jun 4, 2005)

I saw the first season, not too bad.  Too much eltist aliens, selfish characters, and just a general following of Murphy's Law.  

Still watching though.


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## Kesh (Jun 4, 2005)

Murphy's Law is the only law in _Farscape_.


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## Crothian (Jun 5, 2005)

ya, I got 4 episodes into season 2 and DVD player died or something.....

But one thing I have noticed in the show the bad guys are not that scarey.  THey have good make up and okay acting, but they just don't seem that scarey like they should.


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## takyris (Jun 5, 2005)

It's hard to make a bad guy scary when the good guy is allowed to call him Count Chocula multiple times during the episode. 

(Yeah, noticed that as well... although Scorpy does become fairly impressively scary at a few points later on.)


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## Crothian (Jun 5, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> It's hard to make a bad guy scary when the good guy is allowed to call him Count Chocula multiple times during the episode.
> 
> (Yeah, noticed that as well... although Scorpy does become fairly impressively scary at a few points later on.)




They had chances to do it before John meet him though.  They could have established he was scarey and then have John make fuin of him.


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## cuteasaurus (Jun 5, 2005)

I concur with the "stick it out through the end of the 1st season" comments.  Best things about Farscape: 1) The interaction between John and Aeryn 2) the way the viewer is "in" on the inside jokes John throws out (cultural ref. to Earth) 3) The comedy even in times of intense "plot movement" 4) awesome Fx and puppets 5) consistency with plot, details about races and planets, etc. 6) core group of characters with development as the series progresses. 

It all comes down to what you want out of your sci-fi.  I like humor and interesting places.  I especially like the "ordinary people (or aliens ) in extraordinary situations" premise...good luck with the Farscape viewing and I hope you like it!


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## takyris (Jun 5, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> They had chances to do it before John meet him though.  They could have established he was scarey and then have John make fuin of him.




Oh, I didn't mean the Count Chocula thing particularly for Scorpy. I just made up the Count Chocula thing -- any actual occurence of that in the show is coincidence. I didn't want to use a real insult-name Chrichton used and spoil something.

And I dunno, the Aurora Chair was a little scary -- at least, as scary as most television gets for me in terms of stuff actually shown on screen.

I don't really watch Farscape for scariness, though, so if it's a lack, it's a lack in an area that wasn't a selling point for me. I've been amused, ooged out, saddened, and badassedly impressed while watching Farscape, but I don't think I've ever really been scared.


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## Rackhir (Jun 6, 2005)

Try watching it in a warm damp enviroment. I think the series grows best on you in those sorts of conditions.


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## NuclearWookiee (Jun 7, 2005)

My fiancee got me hooked on this show.  Sure, some of the effects are cheesy, but there's a character interaction without compare in this show.  I can't call it my favorite sci-fi universe, but it certainly contains some of my favorite characters.  John is like a combination of Han Solo's bravado, Spiderman's quick wit, and Reed Richard's intellect (three of my favorite heroes).  Anyway, that's my two cents.


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## gtJormungand (Jun 7, 2005)

PhoenixDarkDirk said:
			
		

> Especially the Sebaceans.



There is a reason for that; you haven't watched enough.


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## Hand of Evil (Jun 7, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> For me it was the pop culture comments, the interesting characters, humor and great visuals. Of course there are some hit or miss episodes what show didn't have those except DS9. I think there were more hit than miss episodes.



Yes, John was a geek and used his pop culture knowledge every chance he got!


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## coriolis (Jun 8, 2005)

> There are some eps that I left out that are pretty entertaining by themselves but I wanted to provide a "fast forward." Keep in mind that many of the eps contain plots and events that don't really work until you see them referenced much later on. Even as late as Season 4.




Eheheh... Karen Shaw


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## PhoenixDarkDirk (Jun 8, 2005)

gtJormungand said:
			
		

> There is a reason for that; you haven't watched enough.




I am aware of that.  I guess I just didn't make my sarcasm clear enough.


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## Crothian (Jun 20, 2005)

At the end of the second season did they mess up the DVDs?   The second to last disk had characters on it that didn't reappear or were introduced till the last disk.  It seems that the first of the three parter and the episode before that were reversed.


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## Crothian (Jun 28, 2005)

Well, thisis one of the most pessimist views of life I've seen.  There are no good guys, everyone is selfish or just plain evil.  It also got really Surreal in the third season which I'm still watching.


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## Hand of Evil (Jun 28, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Well, thisis one of the most pessimist views of life I've seen.  There are no good guys, everyone is selfish or just plain evil.  It also got really Surreal in the third season which I'm still watching.



it is dark...


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## reveal (Jun 28, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Well, thisis one of the most pessimist views of life I've seen.  There are no good guys, everyone is selfish or just plain evil.  It also got really Surreal in the third season which I'm still watching.




I see it as more "realistic" than most sci-fi shows. Don't get me wrong, I love the standard "Everything goes bad and then *bam* Deus Ex Machina everything's fine" sci-fi show - I'm looking at you ST:Voyager - as much as the next guy, but Farscape is probably my favorite right next to Stargate: SG-1.


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## Crothian (Jun 28, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> it is dark...




Not so much Dark as highly predictible.  Ship meets new people, they someone are going to screw over the crew.  And the crew never learns.


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## Crothian (Jun 28, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I see it as more "realistic" than most sci-fi shows. Don't get me wrong, I love the standard "Everything goes bad and then *bam* Deus Ex Machina everything's fine" sci-fi show - I'm looking at you ST:Voyager - as much as the next guy, but Farscape is probably my favorite right next to Stargate: SG-1.




Those shows are more episodic and are easy to watch then the B5's, Stargates, and Farscapes that need to be watched in order without missing an episode.


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## Kesh (Jun 28, 2005)

Kesh said:
			
		

> Murphy's Law is the only law in _Farscape_.



 Quoted for emphasis.


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## Crothian (Jun 28, 2005)

Kesh said:
			
		

> Quoted for emphasis.




I know, but it gets old after while


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## sniffles (Jun 28, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Well, thisis one of the most pessimist views of life I've seen. There are no good guys, everyone is selfish or just plain evil. It also got really Surreal in the third season which I'm still watching.




Actually I find it pretty optimistic.  The characters never give up, no matter how often they get shafted.  Crichton managed to take a bunch of selfish convicts and make them into self-sacrificing heroes - but they're not perfect.  They still have flaws and do stupid things.  I think that's why I like them.  I can relate to them, even thought most of them are aliens.


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## Felon (Jun 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I just startyed watching this borrowed froma friend.  I am on epsiode 8 of first season as I write this.  I image I'll watch these fast as I tend to do that.  They are good so far but I'm not seeing what causes the fanticism that so many people have for the series.




Funny, that's how I felt about Babylon 5. Cheap costumes, cheap sets, cheap characters with broad cliche personalities, trite dialogue, and by-the-numbers resolutions to each week's plot. It was Monet science-fiction; stepping back to look at the entire elephantine overarching mega-plot, it looks grand. When looking at individual episodes, however, 9 out of 10 were pretty bland. 

For all the raves about its non-trekkiness, it was still crypto-fascist science fiction. The B5 crew were still cops, still loyal soldiers following a chain of command. Farscape's cast was a bunch of misfit fugitives on the run from the authorities. They weren't out to protect the universe--no puerile confrontation scenes with posturing characters saying "go to hell" or "get off my damn ___" with a dramatic pause so the fanboys watching at home can hoot and holler at this wanton use of mild swearing. And nobody casually accepted that anyone else was the boss of them. When they finally do decide to pick a captain for Moya, the human doesn't even win. Now that's rebellious non-trekkiness.

I guess crypto-fascist sci-fi must be what people want though, because Farscape's gone and SG1 is here to stay.


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## Felon (Jun 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Well, thisis one of the most pessimist views of life I've seen.  There are no good guys, everyone is selfish or just plain evil.  It also got really Surreal in the third season which I'm still watching.




Crothian, people _are_ typically selfish. Farscape doesn't pretend otherwise. But there is also compassion, comraderie, and self-sacrifice, and it's made much more meaningful when you realize these characters have to overcome selfish flaws, rather than simply lacking them like your standard issue sci-fi paper hero.



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> Not so much Dark as highly predictible.  Ship meets new people, they someone are going to screw over the crew.  And the crew never learns.




Typically, they pick someone up out of compassion (you don't want them to be selfish all the time, right?) or necessity (they don't have replicators or an onboard specialist for every conceivable skillset). They have to drop their guard from time to time.


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## John Crichton (Jun 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Not so much Dark as highly predictible. Ship meets new people, they someone are going to screw over the crew. And the crew never learns.



 I think the show deserves a little more credit than that. Yes, they are always in trouble and it's almost always bad but how is that different than other sci-fi shows set on a spaceship?

As for the crew never learning: huh?  They know damn well they are going to get screwed over most of the time and there is always a reason why they go to such lengths.


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## Crothian (Jun 29, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> Crothian, people _are_ typically selfish.




Not in my experience.


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## Crothian (Jun 29, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I think the show deserves a little more credit than that. Yes, they are always in trouble and it's almost always bad but how is that different than other sci-fi shows set on a spaceship?




It seems to be a lot more.  Also, most other shows on a space ship seek out the trouble.  These guys wek after week, trouble finds them.


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## John Crichton (Jun 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> It seems to be a lot more.  Also, most other shows on a space ship seek out the trouble.  These guys wek after week, trouble finds them.



 What stretch of eps are you on, if I may ask?

And yeah, others look for trouble because they can usually handle it.  Moya's big (and only) weapon:  run away, real fast.


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## Crothian (Jun 29, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> What stretch of eps are you on, if I may ask?
> 
> And yeah, others look for trouble because they can usually handle it.  Moya's big (and only) weapon:  run away, real fast.




At this very moment I am watching "I shrink therefor I am"


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## Felon (Jun 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Not in my experience.




Ah, self-actualization is commonplace where you come from? Interesting.



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> It seems to be a lot more.  Also, most other shows on a space ship seek out the trouble.  These guys wek after week, trouble finds them.




Most good guys are purely reactive. Just about every version of Star Trek had countless plots where they encounter something or someone in space and bring it/them on board. DS9 and B5 had plots about the villain-of-the-week showing up at their station. Pretty standard stuff. 

But yeah, the magnitude of awfulness is pretty severe in Farscape. People don't always make the right decision. Actions have consequences that aren't fixed within 60 minutes. Bad stuff happens. Just like real-life--but let me guess, not in your experience, eh?


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## Crothian (Jun 29, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> But yeah, the magnitude of awfulness is pretty severe in Farscape. People don't always make the right decision. Actions have consequences that aren't fixed within 60 minutes.




Its more then just that, they never catch a break.  3+ years I've watched and nothing.  It wears on me.  I don't see what people keep trying to compaire it to trek or B5, it isn't like those shows.  The closest thing I can see to Farscape is actually Thieves World.  But I'd think by now Farscape doesn't need to be compaired to anything, it is its own thing.


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## Rackhir (Jun 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Its more then just that, they never catch a break. 3+ years I've watched and nothing. It wears on me. I don't see what people keep trying to compaire it to trek or B5, it isn't like those shows. The closest thing I can see to Farscape is actually Thieves World. But I'd think by now Farscape doesn't need to be compaired to anything, it is its own thing.




Have you tried the warm damp enviroment yet? It worked for a number of people I know.


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## reveal (Jun 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Its more then just that, they never catch a break.  3+ years I've watched and nothing.  It wears on me.  I don't see what people keep trying to compaire it to trek or B5, it isn't like those shows.  The closest thing I can see to Farscape is actually Thieves World.  But I'd think by now Farscape doesn't need to be compaired to anything, it is its own thing.




I agree; it's its own seperate being. I think that's why it was is so popular; it was new and fresh. I think BSG is similar in that it goes against the standard set for Sci-Fi shows by Star Trek and its ilk.


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## Crothian (Jun 29, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Have you tried the warm damp enviroment yet? It worked for a number of people I know.




Its Ohio in the summer, I live in a warm damp enviroment


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## Storm Raven (Jun 29, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> For all the raves about its non-trekkiness, it was still crypto-fascist science fiction. The B5 crew were still cops, still loyal soldiers following a chain of command.




Yeah, loyal and following the chain of command. Which is why season three turned out like it did. And they sure followed the orders of the Vorlons right down the line too. Did you even _watch_ the series?


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## Rackhir (Jun 29, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> Funny, that's how I felt about Babylon 5. Cheap costumes, cheap sets, cheap characters with broad cliche personalities, trite dialogue, and by-the-numbers resolutions to each week's plot. It was Monet science-fiction; stepping back to look at the entire elephantine overarching mega-plot, it looks grand. When looking at individual episodes, however, 9 out of 10 were pretty bland.
> 
> For all the raves about its non-trekkiness, it was still crypto-fascist science fiction. The B5 crew were still cops, still loyal soldiers following a chain of command. Farscape's cast was a bunch of misfit fugitives on the run from the authorities. They weren't out to protect the universe--no puerile confrontation scenes with posturing characters saying "go to hell" or "get off my damn ___" with a dramatic pause so the fanboys watching at home can hoot and holler at this wanton use of mild swearing. And nobody casually accepted that anyone else was the boss of them. When they finally do decide to pick a captain for Moya, the human doesn't even win. Now that's rebellious non-trekkiness.
> 
> I guess crypto-fascist sci-fi must be what people want though, because Farscape's gone and SG1 is here to stay.




Crypto-Fascist? Are you living out in a cabin in montana some place and basing your descriptions of B5 off of a "Telephone" game description? How does starting a rebellion over a fascist crackdown, gathering multiple races into a democratic alliance to fight both of the elder races especially the "Order at Any Cost" Vorlons and then turning your self over to the restored democratic authorities for judgement over your leading the rebellion qualify as Crypto-Fascist?

Is there some particular reason you feel the need to put down other people's favorite shows in defending Farscape?


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## reveal (Jun 29, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Is there some particular reason you feel the need to put down other people's favorite shows in defending Farscape?




Is there any reason to get this worked up because someone disagrees with you about a television program?


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## Rackhir (Jun 29, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Is there any reason to get this worked up because someone disagrees with you about a television program?




If they basically call it a pro-nazi show, yes I consider that sufficient reason to get annoyed with them. Especially when that's almost exactly the opposite of what the series is about.


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## reveal (Jun 29, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> If they basically call it a pro-nazi show, yes I consider that sufficient reason to get annoyed with them. Especially when that's almost exactly the opposite of what the series is about.




Crypto-fascist and pro-nazi are not necessarily the same thing. Naziism was a form of fascism. Crypto-fascist could be in reference to Clerical fascism for all you know.

Whether or not you like the show is no reason to insult the author of the post, in this case Felon. You want to disprove his theory? Then give reasons and logic to support your theory. Don't resort to name calling and insults because that just makes you look like a raving fanboy.


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## Storm Raven (Jun 29, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> You want to disprove his theory? Then give reasons and logic to support your theory.




Umm, he did. Did you not read his post in which he went over some of the primary elements of the show, and how they are the exact _opposite_ of what Felon said the show was about?


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## reveal (Jun 29, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Umm, he did. Did you not read his post in which he went over some of the primary elements of the show, and how they are the exact _opposite_ of what Felon said the show was about?




When I start reading personal insults, I stop reading because that's when I see it as more of a fanboy attack than a simple disagreement. Starting off with "Have you been living out in a cabin in Montana..." does not an effective argument make. And, apparently, that is what Rackhir wanted to make, an effective argument. To me, it failed.

But, then again, maybe I'm just "old school" because I think personal insults have no place in arguments because all it does it make the person your arguing against defensive, thereby causing them to not even bother listening to what you have to say.


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## Storm Raven (Jun 29, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> When I start reading personal insults, I stop reading because that's when I see it as more of a fanboy attack than a simple disagreement. Starting off with "Have you been living out in a cabin in Montana..." does not an effective argument make. And, apparently, that is what Rackhir wanted to make, an effective argument. To me, it failed.




Given that the level of knowledge of B5 appears to only be explainable in that fashion, it was pretty much in line with what I expected some responses to be. Of course, I don't see the opening comment in Rackhir's post to be a "personal insult", he didn't call him names or insult his family, he questioned his knowledge on a topic that he seems to know so little about.

Of course, your response, given that you didn't read his reasoning for Felon being wrong, calling for him to give his reasons why Felon's assessment was wrong, makes your post seem quite silly. The fact that you didn't bother to read further is your problem, not Rackhir's.

And it is especially amusing that you decry "personal insults" and then go around calling people "raving fanboys". Pot meet kettle, call it black.


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## Rackhir (Jun 29, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Crypto-fascist and pro-nazi are not necessarily the same thing. Naziism was a form of fascism. Crypto-fascist could be in reference to Clerical fascism for all you know.
> 
> Whether or not you like the show is no reason to insult the author of the post, in this case Felon. You want to disprove his theory? Then give reasons and logic to support your theory. Don't resort to name calling and insults because that just makes you look like a raving fanboy.




I am aware that fascisim and Nazism are not the same thing. Crypto-Fascist, was too bland and obscure for what I felt he was accusing B5 of being and I couldn't think of a better term. 

However if you are going to accuse someone of not giving reasons or using logic to suport their opinion, then you really ought to read the entire post before you resort to name calling and insults. Calling someone a raving fanboy, isn't exactly a complement and is particularly amusing when you are complaining about someone else using insults in the same sentence. 

However, I do regret having responded to that post simply because it was so obviously a Troll as I suspect your posts are as well. I probably shouldn't even have replied to this one, but the irony of your complaining about my using insults in the same sentence where you insulted me was just too rich to ignore. I'll ignore posts from both of you in the future.


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## reveal (Jun 29, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> I'll ignore posts from both of you in the future.




Works for me.


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## reveal (Jun 29, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And it is especially amusing that you decry "personal insults" and then go around calling people "raving fanboys". Pot meet kettle, call it black.




I said his post sounded like he was a raving fanboy, not that he actually was a raving fanboy.


----------



## Storm Raven (Jun 29, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I said his post sounded like he was a raving fanboy, not that he actually was a raving fanboy.




And Rackhir _asked_ if Felon was living in a cabin in Montana playing Telephone, he didn't say he was. In short, you do realize that your argument that saying someone "sounded" like a raving fanboy is somehow qualitatively different from calling someone a raving fanboy effectively nullifies your claim that Rackhir made a personal insult in his post, don't you. If you don't, then you need to sit back and think about this for a while.


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## Psion (Jun 29, 2005)

Wow... back off, guys! It's not as if there is only one show to watch. We can all find something that hits the right spot. Nobody's going to prove anyone wrong.

I like Farscape because I can relate to the characters. Not because I am selfish but because I know humans and humans are flawed.

And the characters in Farscape grow. And they grow on you. I hated Jool at first, but after she left, I missed her.

But if you can't stand how selfish the characters are, you have yet to meet sikozu.

It works for me because victims of circumstance don't get to choose their crewmates (not that anyone does).

It seems to me that in many other SF series, to a certain extent, if they analyze frailty, it's either in transient characters or it's all or nothing (either he's a sterling guy who's the best at their in the galaxy, but he's a rock bottom alcoholic or drug addict, etc.)

That's just MO, though. Trying to disuade me of it, or for me to get you to buy it if you don't, is about like arguing how wrong someone is for liking chocolate ice cream (or whatever.)


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## Storm Raven (Jun 29, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Wow... back off, guys! It's not as if there is only one show to watch. We can all find something that hits the right spot. Nobody's going to prove anyone wrong.




I agree on that score. I am a fan of B5 _and_ Farscape _and_ SG-1. They all have strong points and weak points.

But saying that B5s themes are crypto-fascist? That's just loony.


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## Mallus (Jun 29, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Crypto-fascist could be in reference to Clerical fascism for all you know.



As an aside: I've always heard the term "crypto-fascist" was coined by the American novelist Gore Vidal to describe William F. Buckley Jr. And it wasn't intended to convey much in the way of meaning, just to make Buckley really, really mad. Punching mad, so the story goes...

And labelling B5 as 'crypto-fascist' --as vague as the term is-- seems really off-base. Would that mean any drama that featured military personnel, or police, or --insert group with hierarchal command structure here -- automatically count as fascist? 

How about the French Resistance? Didn't they have a chain of command?


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## Psion (Jun 29, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I agree on that score. I am a fan of B5 _and_ Farscape _and_ SG-1. They all have strong points and weak points.




Precisely. I am a fan of B5 and Farscape and um... other stuff. 



> But saying that B5s themes are crypto-fascist? That's just loony.




Especially considering it's un-crypto-anti-fascist.


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## reveal (Jun 29, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And Rackhir _asked_ if Felon was living in a cabin in Montana playing Telephone, he didn't say he was. In short, you do realize that your argument that saying someone "sounded" like a raving fanboy is somehow qualitatively different from calling someone a raving fanboy effectively nullifies your claim that Rackhir made a personal insult in his post, don't you. If you don't, then you need to sit back and think about this for a while.




I admit "raving fanboy" was not the correct term to use. I attempted to convey a message but, as I have seen too many times, "tone" is something that cannot be coneyed vying typing.


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## reveal (Jun 29, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Wow... back off, guys! It's not as if there is only one show to watch. We can all find something that hits the right spot. Nobody's going to prove anyone wrong.




Which is what I tried to get at in my first post asking why someone was getting so worked up about a television show and my attempt to defend myself went horribly awry.


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## Psion (Jun 29, 2005)

Another reason I dig Farscape: It's (usually) funny, when the right author is writing at least. And beleiveably funny.

I mean stuff like "Nebari mental cleansing doesn't get the really tough stains out" is gold to me. Crichton rocks.


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## Crothian (Jun 29, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Another reason I dig Farscape: It's (usually) funny, when the right author is writing at least. And beleiveably funny.
> 
> I mean stuff like "Nebari mental cleansing doesn't get the really tough stains out" is gold to me. Crichton rocks.




Ya, the writting for the most part is pretty good.


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## Henry (Jun 29, 2005)

Ladies and Gents, if we could please keep the discourse to a civil level, I'd appreciate it. I'm glad it seems back on track, but there's no reason to get worked up over a TV show to a hostile extent, cancelled or otherwise. 

Thanks.


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## sniffles (Jun 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Its more then just that, they never catch a break. 3+ years I've watched and nothing. It wears on me. I don't see what people keep trying to compaire it to trek or B5, it isn't like those shows. The closest thing I can see to Farscape is actually Thieves World. But I'd think by now Farscape doesn't need to be compaired to anything, it is its own thing.




You're absolutely right, there, Crothian.  It doesn't need to be compared to other shows.  Those of us who like it do so because it isn't like those other shows (which I also like), but that doesn't mean you have to like it.  Kudos for giving it a try though.  I hope you find it more enjoyable as the series goes on, if you choose to continue watching.  If you don't, that's too bad, but we can't all like the same stuff or the world would be a very dull place.


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## Crothian (Jun 29, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> You're absolutely right, there, Crothian.  It doesn't need to be compared to other shows.  Those of us who like it do so because it isn't like those other shows (which I also like), but that doesn't mean you have to like it.  Kudos for giving it a try though.  I hope you find it more enjoyable as the series goes on, if you choose to continue watching.  If you don't, that's too bad, but we can't all like the same stuff or the world would be a very dull place.




I have every intention of watching it the whole way through.  It is entertaining enough and I 'm asci fi fan so I like to watch the different kinds of shows as I can.  It is not a show I see myself wanting to watch over and over, though.  It has some very good parts and they did great with some aspects of the show, I don't want it to seem like I'm focusing on the negatives all the time.  It is not a show that was forced upon me, I went out and found a friend who had it so I could see it.  It is just with all the people around here practically screaming at me that it is great, I tend to to focus more on the negatives in my responses to try to counter balance all of it.


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## Simplicity (Jun 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> At the end of the second season did they mess up the DVDs?   The second to last disk had characters on it that didn't reappear or were introduced till the last disk.  It seems that the first of the three parter and the episode before that were reversed.




Yes, they messed up the episode order.  If I remember right, there's a three part bunch (can't remember the name) that they put the first two episodes on one disk, and the last episode on a LATER disk.  Stupid.  Seriously, seriously stupid.

The series is great right up until the last season.  And then, it starts to suck really badly, I think.


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## John Crichton (Jun 30, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Another reason I dig Farscape: It's (usually) funny, when the right author is writing at least. And beleiveably funny.
> 
> I mean stuff like "Nebari mental cleansing doesn't get the really tough stains out" is gold to me. Crichton rocks.



 Ya know, thinking back...

There were some really excellent eps of Farscape. Most of them in the second half of each season and all the 3-parters. However, there were some stinkers as well. But John's quips and general attitude (and pop-genre references) always made the show watchable. After a while, all the characters got into the act.

I can't see anyone comparing the show to anything else except maybe to say that it was something that Voyager should have been (stranded from home premise, not the tone/humor/direction). The show could have easily been very heavy handed as many of the factions were blatant mirrors of Earth history counterparts but it always kept things light and got serious when it needed to be.

I applaud Crothian for sticking with it even though he doesn't completely love it.  I don't know if I could do the same.


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## takyris (Jun 30, 2005)

I don't necessarily know that I applaud him. I'm glad he did, because that lets us talk about Farscape some more, but I don't think people should continue to watch stuff that doesn't do it for them. Don't get me wrong: I don't want Crothian to stop if he's enjoying it and just pointing out flaws. But watching stuff you don't like because other people think it's good is never going to make you happy. (This explains why I don't go to movies very often. I vote with my dollar, and I vote hard.)

I think that the reason I loved Farscape was that it was the anti-Trek -- at least, anti-Modern Trek. I remember seeing the episode... blanking on the name, but it was early second season, when the guy comes onto the ship and causes all kinds of weird light-effects that make everyone crazy and homicidal except Zhaan, who gets, uh, 300+ happy personal moments? (If I recall correctly, it also marks an early apperance of Harvey, passed off as a hallucination because we don't know about the chip yet in the show.)

Anyway, in that episode, which Crothian has seen by now, so no spoiler worries, everyone has figured out that it's the alien's fault they're crazy, and John, the sanest of the group because of his poor eyesight ("Hey! I've got 20/20 eyesight, and they're *blue!*"), is chosen to go in and defeat the alien, who has laser-beams and some kind of heat wave.

As I recall correctly, he gets D'Argo's sword, Aryn's prowler-plating-shield, a cloaking field from some other source, a heat resistant goo that Zhaan regurgitates for John, and a goofy helmet. He dashes into the room humming "The Ride of the Valkyries" runs around hacking up the alien's devices, and finally runs the creepy bastard through.

I looked at the screen and said, "If this were one of today's _Star Trek_ episodes, the alien device would be uncovered, the alien would be stunned by some kind of feedback, and he'd end up surrounded by a force field. And then the captain of the show would say, 'We're onto you. We're putting you back in your ship and leaving a warning beacon in this region of space so that nobody else falls for your schemes.' And the alien would stalk off, growling."

And that was when I fell in love with _Farscape_. The show doesn't pretend to have a civilized morality when it's set in an uncivilized world. It ain't _Deadwood_, but if someone tries to kill one of the crew, that someone is probably going to end up dead unless they're truly incompetent or have a really good explanation.

I remember watching _Stargate:Atlantis_, one of the first season episodes, the one where some group of humans has found a serum that they can inject into themselves that makes them poison for the Wraith. Or at least, they think so. And they spend 40 minutes of the hour talking about whether it's ethical to use their Wraith prisoner as a test subject, whether it's ethical to use a volunteer as a victim for the Wraith's attack, and whether this will really work and should we I don't know it's not very nice this isn't the polite way to do it... and I looked over at my wife and said "If this were _Farscape_, they'd have fed the volunteer to the alien about twenty minutes ago." And she nodded and sighed. I ended up watching the rest of the episode with captions on at x4 fast-forwarding -- slow enough to read captions and follow actions easily, fast enough to get through a dull episode faster.

I'm not saying that such a moral dilemna couldn't be interesting. I'm saying that in such a situation -- aliens that *suck the life out of you for food*, with your group cut off from the rest of your country and planet, desperately looking for friends and help against the life-sucking aliens... that kind of moral whinging did not feel realistic. Or, if it was realistic, it was realistic for people who aren't going to survive.


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## Felon (Jun 30, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Yeah, loyal and following the chain of command. Which is why season three turned out like it did. And they sure followed the orders of the Vorlons right down the line too. Did you even _watch_ the series?




They are loyal and follow a tight chain of command--Sheridan's chain. B5 is basically its own little police state when they break off from Earthgov. 

In general, I'm just tired of soldier-boy sci-fi. Star Trek, B5, SG1, and now the ultimate expression of crypto-fascist SF, the new Battlestar--sometimes I have to wonder if this is ever going to get old for the rest of SF fans out there. Farscape came along and tried to inject a fresh, smart, fearless approach, and falls flat on its face for its defiance of conventions. Why? Because people don't like a show without a clear chain of command? 

It could be the basis of another thread, but this show had such attention to detail--I mean, even a character that was slated to die later that episode had some character traits--why didn't it capture enough attention to survive?


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 30, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> I don't necessarily know that I applaud him. I'm glad he did, because that lets us talk about Farscape some more, but I don't think people should continue to watch stuff that doesn't do it for them. Don't get me wrong: I don't want Crothian to stop if he's enjoying it and just pointing out flaws. But watching stuff you don't like because other people think it's good is never going to make you happy. (This explains why I don't go to movies very often. I vote with my dollar, and I vote hard.)



Well, he did like say that he liked it, he just doesn't love it.



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> I think that the reason I loved Farscape was that it was the anti-Trek -- at least, anti-Modern Trek. I remember seeing the episode... blanking on the name, but it was early second season, when the guy comes onto the ship and causes all kinds of weird light-effects that make everyone crazy and homicidal except Zhaan, who gets, uh, 300+ happy personal moments? (If I recall correctly, it also marks an early apperance of Harvey, passed off as a hallucination because we don't know about the chip yet in the show.)
> 
> Anyway, in that episode, which Crothian has seen by now, so no spoiler worries, everyone has figured out that it's the alien's fault they're crazy, and John, the sanest of the group because of his poor eyesight ("Hey! I've got 20/20 eyesight, and they're *blue!*"), is chosen to go in and defeat the alien, who has laser-beams and some kind of heat wave.
> 
> ...



The episode is "Crackers Don't Matter" and no I don't know the names of all the eps from each season. I recall the name because it's my favorite ep of the show (ok, probably top 3 if I had time to think about it). I re-watched that ep so many times that the VHS tape wore down and made the rest of the eps unwatchable. Fantastic ep and a great example of the show's drama/humor.

John: "Smells like puke."
Zhaan: "I predigested it to increase its potency."
John: (Surprised and angry) "It's _puke_?!"



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> I remember watching _Stargate:Atlantis_, one of the first season episodes, the one where some group of humans has found a serum that they can inject into themselves that makes them poison for the Wraith. Or at least, they think so. And they spend 40 minutes of the hour talking about whether it's ethical to use their Wraith prisoner as a test subject, whether it's ethical to use a volunteer as a victim for the Wraith's attack, and whether this will really work and should we I don't know it's not very nice this isn't the polite way to do it... and I looked over at my wife and said "If this were _Farscape_, they'd have fed the volunteer to the alien about twenty minutes ago." And she nodded and sighed. I ended up watching the rest of the episode with captions on at x4 fast-forwarding -- slow enough to read captions and follow actions easily, fast enough to get through a dull episode faster.
> 
> I'm not saying that such a moral dilemna couldn't be interesting. I'm saying that in such a situation -- aliens that *suck the life out of you for food*, with your group cut off from the rest of your country and planet, desperately looking for friends and help against the life-sucking aliens... that kind of moral whinging did not feel realistic. Or, if it was realistic, it was realistic for people who aren't going to survive.



One other note should be that one of the cast would also be that one of the crew would probably be hallucinating or somesuch due to something produced by the Wraith to add insult to injury. Can't just cause a dillema in Farscape, someone has to be embarrassed as well.


----------



## takyris (Jun 30, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> John: "Smells like puke."
> Zhaan: "I predigested it to increase its potency."
> John: (Surprised and angry) "It's _puke_?!"




Man, I love that line. And the "everyone but Chrichton can read the writing on the urn" bit, particularly with Aryn putting a hand over her eye. Hi-frickin'-larious.

And Aryn's "We. Are all. Going. To die." (While everyone was good, and Browder had the best ham-up lines, I was always impressed with Claudia Black and... (sigh) the guy who played D'argo whose name I'm forgetting just now but will remember as soon as JC reminds me. They both did a great job with humorous lines, made all the more humorous because they didn't have the funny ones all the time. The amount of expression D'argo's actor was able to convey through that much makeup -- heck, on a non-funny note, the expression on his face as he looks at the wall with the little girl's name carved on it at the end of the "time travel back to the Sebacean Alamo" episode... he got his character's feelings across without gesturing, and without me being able to see anything but his eyes. Amazing.)

And on a not-funny note, Ben Browder had a good delivery of "How d'ya take it back?" at the end.

Really, just a ton of good lines in there. And yeah, "Crackers Don't Matter".  Duh. I should have known that one. (Seriously. As soon as you said it, I slapped my forehead.)


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## John Crichton (Jun 30, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> Man, I love that line. And the "everyone but Chrichton can read the writing on the urn" bit, particularly with Aryn putting a hand over her eye. Hi-frickin'-larious.



Oh yeah.  Her playing the straight role always increased the humor.  The ep where they switched bodies was genius and really showed how different/alike they were.

And on a totally unrelated note:  Taky, you are one of the most well-written/spoken members of this forum.  The fact that you misspelled Crichton's name (despite it already being on the page) proves that it's just one of those names that everyone screws up at one time or another.  I have this handle on many different boards and everyone always messes it up at one time or another or all the time and I always wonder why.  Now I will just chalk it up to one of life's great mysteries and the fact that the English language is terribly flawed.  



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> And Aryn's "We. Are all. Going. To die." (While everyone was good, and Browder had the best ham-up lines, I was always impressed with Claudia Black and... (sigh) the guy who played D'argo whose name I'm forgetting just now but will remember as soon as JC reminds me. They both did a great job with humorous lines, made all the more humorous because they didn't have the funny ones all the time. The amount of expression D'argo's actor was able to convey through that much makeup -- heck, on a non-funny note, the expression on his face as he looks at the wall with the little girl's name carved on it at the end of the "time travel back to the Sebacean Alamo" episode... he got his character's feelings across without gesturing, and without me being able to see anything but his eyes. Amazing.)



Anthony Simcoe is a NUT.  His acting is great, too.  I met him at a Farscape Con in NY a few years ago and how he played such a straight character for so long is a mystery as he doesn't have a serious bone in his body.  There was a dinner after the con where they had dancing and a few other events.  At one point, a heavy dance song comes on and he jumps to the middle of the dance floor and "summons" all the ladies in the room to join him.  They quickly complied.  Soon he is surrounded by hot women and grinding it like no ones' business while shooting off goofy faces to the rest of the room.  I've never seen anything like it.  His real voice is *nothing* like his D'argo voice.  An impressive set of acting chops to say the least.

The moment where D'argo became an beloved character for me was the following at the very end of S1, a true Kirk/Spoke moment (which oddly enough John blatently eludes to):

John: "Hey. D'Argo... how come I'm not afraid?"
D'argo: "Fear accompanies the possibility of death. Calm shepherds its certainty."
John: "I love hangin' with you man."



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> And on a not-funny note, Ben Browder had a good delivery of "How d'ya take it back?" at the end.
> 
> Really, just a ton of good lines in there. And yeah, "Crackers Don't Matter". Duh. I should have known that one. (Seriously. As soon as you said it, I slapped my forehead.)



I can hear the slapping from here.  It's ok - I can't remember the names of the other eps I really liked right now save for 1 or 2.

Farscape had so many great one-liners and the cool part was by the end they were spread around even though John got most of the really good ones by default.  The funny was almost always balanced with something equally as dire.  Those lines were delivered just as well in most cases.  Farscape was one of the only shows that could move me to gut bursting laugher and then 5 minutes later move me to the point of near-tears.  Some of the plots were flat-out gutwrenching.  The worst was probably Season 2's finale and the ep in S3 where Aeryn says her "final" goodbye to John.

"Humans.  Are. *Superior!*!"


----------



## takyris (Jun 30, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Oh yeah.  Her playing the straight role always increased the humor.  The ep where they switched bodies was genius and really showed how different/alike they were.




"I'm a guy! They're! Right! There!"
(I believe my wife lost it with the unzipping moment.)



> And on a totally unrelated note:  a) Taky, you are one of the most well-written/spoken members of this forum.  b) The fact that you misspelled Crichton's name (despite it already being on the page) proves that it's just one of those names that everyone screws up at one time or another.




a) Woohoo! Aside from my tendency to take offense at random lines and post five-screen rants on the subject, which really isn't pretty when I go back and look at it a few hours later.
b) Son of a... where did the frelling extra-H come from? Dangit! Yeah, I'm resigned to never getting Crichton's name spelled right every time. It is a word of chaos, its letters sliding under my fingers as I struggle to bind it with the order of written words. (Sorry -- planning a Lovecraftian one-shot later this month.)



> Anthony Simcoe is a NUT...




That story right there might be a reason to go to a Con. I've only been to a few, and never had the time I wanted to have, but that sounds awesome.



> The moment where D'argo became an beloved character for me...




Yeah, that's a good'un. I think for me it was Season Three. I loved the guy-bonding talks, like the one you just wrote, where it showed the distance they'd come from even the middle of the first season ("When the Blood Runs Clear", right? The D'Argo/Crichton-arguing while bounty hunters trap D'Argo episode?), but he just took off for me in Season Three with the ability to be badass *and* funny. Starting with "Don't make me tongue you!" and, for me, peaking with one I'm not sure Crothian's reached yet (Crothian: If the phrase "lie-detecting lobsters" doesn't ring a bell, don't highlight): 



Spoiler



My wife and I must have watched the "D'Argo, tell him who his daddy is!" "I'm your daddy!" sequence ten times, laughing hysterically every time. In fact, that line made me and my wife laugh and cry at the same time when delivered at that critical point in the Peacekeeper Wars miniseries.





> The worst was probably Season 2's finale and the ep in S3 where Aeryn says her "final" goodbye to John.




Yep. To both.

Ah, Farscape. Dang.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 30, 2005)

One of my favourite episodes (actually: three parters) was/is "Look at the Princess". 
It has next to everything: Sex, romance, political intrigue, humour, madness ...
(Highlight to see spoiler)


Spoiler



Humour like in (I don´t remember the exact words, but the meaning): 
D' argo: "I have a good and a bad message for you".
Crichton: "The bad first"
D: "You will be petrified for 50 cycles and never see us again"
C: "And the good one?"
D: "Chiana and I have great sex".
...
*laughter turning into screaming as John becomes petrified..."


----------



## Storm Raven (Jun 30, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> They are loyal and follow a tight chain of command--Sheridan's chain. B5 is basically its own little police state when they break off from Earthgov.




Except, of course, for Garibaldi. And the various members of the crew who left/got ejected. And their decision to stay was based on a combination of personal loyalty and reaction to overstepping by the state and a desire to do the right thing rather than follow immoral orders. So pretty much no, they don't "follow a tight little chain of command".

And, to put the point further, you ignore every alien character on the show, all of whom clearly don't follow a "tight little chain of command". Heck, Delenn breaks up her own government because it won't do the right thing.



> _In general, I'm just tired of soldier-boy sci-fi. Star Trek, B5, SG1, and now the ultimate expression of crypto-fascist SF, the new Battlestar--sometimes I have to wonder if this is ever going to get old for the rest of SF fans out there._





Given your completely innacurate analysis of B5, I'm not sure you understand what you are talking about to begin with. Attributing "crypto-fascism" "soldier boy" sci-fi to a show in which characters explicitly refuse to follow orders in order to make the moral choice seems to me to be the ultimate expression of a loon.



> _Farscape came along and tried to inject a fresh, smart, fearless approach, and falls flat on its face for its defiance of conventions. Why? Because people don't like a show without a clear chain of command?_





Farscape lasted for four seasons plus a miniseries. Granted, it _should_ have lasted for five seasons, but four seasons is about three and a half more than most science fiction shows get. It is three+ seasons more than many "mainstream" shows get. By almost any standard is was a success and didn't "fall flat on its face".



> _It could be the basis of another thread, but this show had such attention to detail--I mean, even a character that was slated to die later that episode had some character traits--why didn't it capture enough attention to survive?_





It didn't survive longer than it did primarily because the Sci-Fi channel misused it and marketed it badly, not because no one liked the themes of the show. Given the level of your ranting, I think you have some sort of political/personal issues unrelated to these shows in which you hate all organizations, no matter how benign (believing organizations to be "crypto-fascist"), and they fuel your ill-informed hyperbole on this topic.

By the way, you do realize that "crypto-fascist" is essentially, a meaningless term that is solely intended to insult people, don't you? And each time you throw it around, you are basically saying "I don't know what I'm talking about".


----------



## ddvmor (Jun 30, 2005)

Easy there, chaps.  It's just TV.


----------



## KaosDevice (Jun 30, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> One of my favourite episodes (actually: three parters) was/is "Look at the Princess".
> It has next to everything: Sex, romance, political intrigue, humour, madness ...




That was a favorite of mine as well. I think mostly because I got to see the third part of it at Scapercon 1 in St. Louis surrounded by like minded fans (+ beer..yay!).

Good times...good times...


----------



## ddvmor (Jun 30, 2005)

So many great episodes.  So hard to choose.  How about the Season 3 climax on board Scorpius' Command Carrier (into the Lion's Den? Into the Dog's Bed? ...something like that).  Or the sheer b*lls of iron on Crichton towards the end of season 4 on the Skaaren space station?


----------



## Captain Tagon (Jun 30, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that such a moral dilemna couldn't be interesting. I'm saying that in such a situation -- aliens that *suck the life out of you for food*, with your group cut off from the rest of your country and planet, desperately looking for friends and help against the life-sucking aliens... that kind of moral whinging did not feel realistic. Or, if it was realistic, it was realistic for people who aren't going to survive.





Or maybe people who actually hold themselves to a strict moral standard? Who believe in something higher than their own survival?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 30, 2005)

ddvmor said:
			
		

> Easy there, chaps.  It's just TV.



 That's what you think.


----------



## takyris (Jun 30, 2005)

Captain Tagon said:
			
		

> Or maybe people who actually hold themselves to a strict moral standard? Who believe in something higher than their own survival?




That's certainly possible. In which case, I think their strict moral standard is stupid, shortsighted, and massively intolerant of the moral standards of other cultures. These are classic ugly Americans who go to Rome and shout at people to stop wearing togas.

Everywhere the SG:A team went, they just ground their morals into the carpets of anybody they didn't agree with. "Hey, a society in which people commit ritual suicide when they reach adulthood! Well, that *must* be a load of garbage. Let's get 'em to stop!" At some point, I anticipated seeing them run into a planet with nothing but a giant machine and one guy in a booth, and the guy in the booth would say, "Hey, if you press that big red button there, it's going to kill all the Wraith in the universe, but also it's going to execute me for crimes against the state, and my crime against the state was refusing to release a plague that was created by the state to keep the population in check." And then there'd be half an hour of "We can kill the Wraith!" and "But we're not executioners!" and "But we'll be just like they are!" and stuff, and then finally the guy would end up dying of the plague he himself had created before they could press the big red button, and there'd be a long slow stare-at-each-other moment with apparently emotional music playing before the fade to black.


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## reveal (Jun 30, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> Everywhere the SG:A team went, they just ground their morals into the carpets of anybody they didn't agree with. "Hey, a society in which people commit ritual suicide when they reach adulthood! Well, that *must* be a load of garbage. Let's get 'em to stop!" At some point, I anticipated seeing them run into a planet with nothing but a giant machine and one guy in a booth, and the guy in the booth would say, "Hey, if you press that big red button there, it's going to kill all the Wraith in the universe, but also it's going to execute me for crimes against the state, and my crime against the state was refusing to release a plague that was created by the state to keep the population in check." And then there'd be half an hour of "We can kill the Wraith!" and "But we're not executioners!" and "But we'll be just like they are!" and stuff, and then finally the guy would end up dying of the plague he himself had created before they could press the big red button, and there'd be a long slow stare-at-each-other moment with apparently emotional music playing before the fade to black.




I think that's the premier episode of Season 2.


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## LightPhoenix (Jun 30, 2005)

By far my favorite Farscape moment is in Season 3, the episode I-Yensch, You-Yesnch (spoilers hidden for Crothian's sake) 



Spoiler



where Rygel and Scorpius are negotiating in the diner while it gets taken over.  Absolutely brilliant writing for both characters, and they play off of each other so well.


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## Captain Tagon (Jun 30, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> That's certainly possible. In which case, I think their strict moral standard is stupid, shortsighted, and massively intolerant of the moral standards of other cultures.





::shrug::

Your opinion. Not mine. Which is why I enjoy the show I guess.


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## takyris (Jun 30, 2005)

Captain Tagon said:
			
		

> ::shrug::
> 
> Your opinion. Not mine. Which is why I enjoy the show I guess.




I don't hate the show. I stopped watching when I couldn't find it after moving to Canada. I just dislike that particular part of the show. The episodes where they aren't moralizing are generally stronger, and the episodes where it's more action-oriented seem stronger to me as well -- which is not to say that I only like action, just that it seems to be the stronger suit in this show.

I liked the, um, summer season finale -- Die Hard:Atlantis with the male lead and the scar-faced character actor bad guy talking over walkie-talkies. Good stuff. I liked the one where the male lead has to go toe-to-toe with the single Wraith in a mano-a-mano kind of deal. Those both worked.

The time-travel episode with Extremely Old Weir? Ech. It's like it was written by people who hadn't been watching in science fiction shows for the last thirty years and thought that this was something completely new and original that they had to explain at great length. At risk of hijacking the thread, this isn't something that Farscape in particular does better than SG:A. This is something that SG1 even does better than SG:A. This is something that almost every show I've seen and continued to watch does better than SG:A. I don't know if their writers have been watching Law & Order or Dawson's Creek or what, but they either don't know the conventions of science fiction well enough to know what can be taken for granted, or they've been told (by producers, by Sci-Fi, by someone) that they have to spell it out in more detail -- a level of detail that is painfully slow for me.

So, when they stop spending half the episode talking about how they a) shrank, b) got sent into a parallel dimension, c) were tweaked out of phase and are now walking through walls and invisible to everyone but somehow not falling through the floor, d) are repeating the same moment in time over and over again, or e) switched bodies, I actually enjoy the show -- although I still have a problem with their moralizing, which seems overly simplistic and black-and-white for me.

That all sounds really negative. Seriously: the military stuff? Lots of fun. Cranky scientist guy (Rodney?)? Lots of sun. Killing off Robert Patrick in the pilot? Loved it.


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## John Crichton (Jun 30, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> By far my favorite Farscape moment is in Season 3, the episode I-Yensch, You-Yesnch (spoilers hidden for Crothian's sake)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 The wind-down to that ep was great. The cool thing is that it was only a prelude to the awesomeness that was to come on later in the trilogy. That trilogy of eps may just be the finest 2 hours the show has ever paid off. I always felt that they were building to that point for almost the entire run. Just look at the characters involved.


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## Crothian (Jul 10, 2005)

And it is done.  I watched all 4 seasons plus the Peacekeeper Wars.  Fine series, I'm happy to see they brought it to a good conclusion as the writers habits for "To be continued" got a little annoying.  Farscape made for some good episodes and a nice addition tom the sci fi genre.


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## Fast Learner (Jul 10, 2005)

So a month later, has this (quoted from your OP) changed?



> They are good so far but I'm not seeing what causes the fanticism that so many people have for the series.




Not that you necessarily feels such fanaticism, but is it more obvious why someone might feel that way? Just curious.


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## Crothian (Jul 10, 2005)

Not really.  It is a good series and it does some things good that other sci fi shows fail out (like the make up and alien presentation) but at the same time aside from look the aliens didn't seem alien.  B5 I think really captured aliens being more alien for instance.  It is not s a a show I find myself wanting to watch again.  But its okay, I never got the fanaticism of Rocky Horror either...


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## CCamfield (Jul 10, 2005)

Oh lord, _Crackers Don't Matter_.  That was a brilliant episode.  I have to admit, I always loved the episodes of Farscape in which the actors got to play each other, or other characters.  Like the first season episode with 



Spoiler



the intelligent virus


.  Or the one with the differently-coloured dimensional rifts.  

But what I really _hooked_ me was the awfulness of what Scorpius did to Crichton over the course of Season 2.  A good villain is a great asset to any show.


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## Crothian (Jul 11, 2005)

CCamfield said:
			
		

> But what I really _hooked_ me was the awfulness of what Scorpius did to Crichton over the course of Season 2.  A good villain is a great asset to any show.




He weas good back then, but I think they kept his character in the show at times just to keep his character in the show.  They tried to make him look super intelligent in the end but it didn't work for me.  He is a cool character, but less was always more for good old Scorpio.


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