# Warning: I'm nuking Edition Wars threads



## EricNoah (Jan 9, 2003)

I spent yesterday and last night watching EN World posters new and old attacking each other individually and in groups over Hackmaster, "new" Greyhawk, and the like, and much of the conversation in those threads made me ashamed to be a gamer.  People, you must treat each other better than this.  I don't care if you're the grandfather of D&D, one of the oldest and most respected members of our community, or someone who is here from another forum to do some drive-by trolling -- you have an obligation to make EN World a better place.

Two things I saw that disturbed me:

1) Personal attacks.  Calling out someone by name, or by detailed description, and insulting them is just not acceptable, period.  

2) Gross generalizations and blanket instults.  You think 3E players are retarded?  Fine, think it but don't say it.  No one wants to hear that.  Same goes for the other way around.

Every one of us had a different experience with D&D.  We started at different times in the game's long history. It's to be expected that each person thinks the version  they currently play is the "best" one.  But you're not to use that as an excuse to become nasty with someone who doesn't think like you do.  

Now, to go close some threads.  Let's let Hackmaster and "new" Greyhawk rest for a couple of days and then we'll see if discussion can continue in a cordial fasion.


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## Tom Cashel (Jan 9, 2003)

You go, Eric!

Everything's subjective.  When people accept this they'll find that it's easier to be less judgmental.

Everyone should also remember what Grant Morrison said about the internet's great leveling effect: "Online, all opinions are equally worthless."


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## Nightfall (Jan 9, 2003)

And if not, I'm just going to sit here and pretend to show off my "moral" superitority.   *is kidding*


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## alsih2o (Jan 9, 2003)

yeah! we all know 7th edition smurf vs. fragglerock is the REAL system anyway


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## Carnifex (Jan 9, 2003)

I am so glad to hear this. 'edition wars' never go anywhere constructive except for bonfires.


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## WizarDru (Jan 9, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *Now, to go close some threads.  Let's let Hackmaster and "new" Greyhawk rest for a couple of days and then we'll see if discussion can continue in a cordial fasion. *




Thank you, Eric, for once again reminding me why I like ENWorld, and have made it my online home for the last two years.

Oh, and mad propz to your grandma.  She Rocks.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Jan 9, 2003)

We fear the Grandmother.


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## Utrecht (Jan 9, 2003)

Should we make this thread sticky until the point is driven home???


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## Carnifex (Jan 9, 2003)

We should probably just bump it for a bit until a Mod gets round to stickying it...


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## Drawmack (Jan 9, 2003)

Edition wars are about as useful as +5 forks of eating.


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## Carnifex (Jan 9, 2003)

Drawmack said:
			
		

> *Edition wars are about as useful as +5 forks of eating. *




Well, if you eat institution (ie school/colleg/etc.) meals they have a tendency of sometimes trying to escape the plate, so a +5 fork would be pretty useful for making sure your food really is dead


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## EricNoah (Jan 9, 2003)

Nah, no sticky needed.  Each of the closed threads has a link leading here if people are curious or whatever.


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## Sniktch (Jan 9, 2003)

Yeah, I think this is a good move, Eric.  Part of the reason I stuck at ENWorld was the 'friendly' nature of the boards, and while I can find an argument amusing to a certain point, its probably best if everyone just agrees to disagree and lets the matter drop.


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## maddman75 (Jan 9, 2003)

Good move Eric.  Everyone needs to calm down a bit.  I remember a Dragon magazine editorial that said something to the effect 'if you can pretend to be a dwarven warrior walking into an undead lord's castle bent on his destruction, or a 200 year old vampire trying to hold onto the last shreds of humanity you surely have the imagination for some more games in you.'

Pretending to have the one true system is pointless.  And edition flames are even more pointless.  Its me and my friends, drinking soda and slaying orcs, making jokes and becoming legends.  The publish date or exact license doesn't really matter.


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## Sanackranib (Jan 9, 2003)

*flame wars*

way to go Eric. one of the reasons that I really like En World is the general lack of this type of behavior (flameing) the standard is higher here as it should be elseware. keep up the good work.


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## diaglo (Jan 9, 2003)

I agree.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jan 9, 2003)

Amen, brother.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 9, 2003)

This sucks.  All the good threads are closed down by the time I find them.


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## Col_Pladoh (Jan 9, 2003)

Yuppers, these boards are special because of their general cordiality.  My appologies to all if I crossed the line.  Thank goodness I've never made any claims to perfection though, eh?

Cheers,
Gary


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## Darius101 (Jan 9, 2003)

*Greyhawk thread*

I just read what was posted in the last few days....I understand why it was closed. 
I must appologize, for in some small way I guess I started that argument on that thread. 

Gary I am glad to see you consider your body of work great. I agree it is impressive and you are experienced in what you write. I know of people who are more prolific writers and have been writing for 50+ years. Those being in the magic community not the Gaming community: Ed Marlo and Jon Racherbaumer ....also look into what Harry Lorraine has published and Richard Kaufman. If you would like know more, e-mail me for the names. 
Dragonknight_33@yahoo.com 
I am always willing to discuss my hobbies at any time. 

[moderator snip]

For the most part I enjoyed the discussion as entertainment. This is a game guys......Reality check. [another moderator snip]

I humbly appologize and will now go back to lurking rather than posting... 
Take care guys, 
Darius


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## EricNoah (Jan 9, 2003)

Psst, Darius, the whole point is to NOT continue the discussion.  I appreciate the sentiment, but you clearly missed the part about not calling out individual users.  I'm snipping a smidge off of your apology...


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## Tewligan (Jan 9, 2003)

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *yeah! we all know 7th edition smurf vs. fragglerock is the REAL system anyway   *



WHAT?!  Dude, dozers totally get the shaft in 7th edition.  Anyone who plays anything later than 5th edition SvsF is a mouth-breathing chucklehead.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jan 9, 2003)

There was an odd mood of miscommunication on the boards the last day or so. It was as if people were having separate conversations, even when they were directly addressing each other. Important points were either missed or misconstrued, while tangential points were focused upon and became the fodder for argument. Weird.


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## Col_Pladoh (Jan 9, 2003)

*Re: Greyhawk thread*



			
				Darius101 said:
			
		

> *
> Gary I am glad to see you consider your body of work great. I agree it is impressive and you are experienced in what you write. I know of people who are more prolific writers and have been writing for 50+ years. ...
> Take care guys,
> Darius *




Heh

Thanks, Darius, and well I know that.  I have a colection of just the mystery books done by Agatha Christie that is near astonishing in size and variety!  Of course I am still actively writing, and I'll be adding new titles to my line of credits over the next two yeras for sure.  Quite a number slated for 2003 and 2004, in fact.

The question is about expereince in publishing, and that comes from dealing with a variety of publsihers.  Even there, of course, there are many less-prolific authors who have a shake on me, of that I am sure.  But I do know a pro company from one that isn't

Cheers,
Gary


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## aliensex (Jan 9, 2003)

Damn, missed the fun threads AGAIN! LOL.

Now Eric, if you want to be REALLY useful, delete all the Ranger sucks and the Silence vs. Sonic threads.  Talk about going nowhere fast!

Maybe you need a monitoring script to delete any thread created with the following banned words in the subject:

Ranger, sucks, Harm, Heal, shaft, Sonic, Archery, archerers, balanced.

That would cut out about 95% of the flame wars that start up.

Just a freindly suggestion


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## BOZ (Jan 9, 2003)

not exactly realistic though.    that's like web filters that ban sites about breast cancer...


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## dpdx (Jan 9, 2003)

Not to mention that Sagiro's contest-winning entry, "Broken", would have been filtered under that system, too. And we can't have that: Seuss-filking makes me all warm and happy inside.


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## jdavis (Jan 9, 2003)

Gee I was wondering why I saw several threads getting closed down. That is why I love this place, If I want to throw insults at people over unimportant topics I can go see my family. Civil conversation with intellegent openminded people is why I came here to start with.

People get touchy over some crazy things, wouldn't just be easier to play the games you like, than to gripe about all the games you don't.


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## Morrus (Jan 9, 2003)

I just read the threads in question, and was pretty appalled - especially by the Greyhawk thread.  

Let's get something straight.  Personal attacks ARE NOT PERMITTED here.  If you want to make personal attacks about someone, go somewhere else.

I don't care what you think of other people here, but you will treat every other member with respect.  If you are not willing to do that, you do not have permission to post on these messageboards.  It is one of the conditions upon which your permission to post here is dependent.  It's as simple as that.


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## Breakdaddy (Jan 10, 2003)

I care for beer a great deal.


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## William Ronald (Jan 10, 2003)

I did not follow the Edition Wars threads but was distressed by the Greyhawk threads.

People can disagree without being disagreeable. (Hmm, maybe I should make that my sig.)  One thing I like about EN World is that we generally treat each other with respect.  

I think it is more interesting and useful to debate an issue using facts instead of personal attacks.    Indeed, personal attacks never settle an issue and provide more heat than light.  I have talked to people on this boards about any number of issues.  There have been times when I have tried to calm disagreements, sometimes with humor.  

If you don't like a product, author, rule, et cetera, discuss why you dislike something, and back it up with examples.   Anyone can be insulting.  However, effective arguments are far more interesting.  

Eric, I support your decision.  If the problem persists, maybe you can start a thread on how to have good discussions.  The administrators and moderators here at EN World are doing an excellent job of keeping this a friendly community of gamers.  However, we all need to do our part as well.


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## Horacio (Jan 10, 2003)

Very well done, Eric


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## Ace (Jan 10, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *I spent yesterday and last night watching EN World posters new and old attacking each other individually and in groups over Hackmaster, "new" Greyhawk, and the like, and much of the conversation in those threads made me ashamed to be a gamer.  People, you must treat each other better than this.  I don't care if you're the grandfather of D&D, one of the oldest and most respected members of our community, or someone who is here from another forum to do some drive-by trolling -- you have an obligation to make EN World a better place.
> 
> Two things I saw that disturbed me:
> 
> ...





Thank you for doing this Eric! BTW if anybody wants a flamewar head over to Dragonsfoot.org and have at it on their adition wars forum

As long as you don't get personal arguing about editions is perfectly OK

Heck 3etard is a term of endearment over there


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## seasong (Jan 10, 2003)

Just to add my two cents and jump on the "good job!" bandwagon.  I've been on the Internet for more than 10 years now.  This is the _first_ online community that I've felt comfortable in, that I can post intelligent commentary here without feeling like I'm risking a burn or attack. Or like feeling that I'm talking about a serious topic with invulnerable 10 year olds.

Thanks. I appreciate that.


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 10, 2003)

I'm going to jump on the "Awwwwwwww, I missed the good threads!" bandwagon - less people means more room when I land.   I'd hate to squash people on the "I love these boards" wagon.  That's just rude, especially when I agree with them too.

LightPhoenix


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## Jondor_Battlehammer (Jan 11, 2003)

Drawmack said:
			
		

> *Edition wars are about as useful as +5 forks of eating. *





Pretty useful if your using the "every day skillcheck" critical fumble charts. No more chipped teeth!


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