# Full attack/flurry while grappling?



## Herzog (Sep 26, 2010)

I'm confused.

In inquiring about a grappling build, I have found several references to the monk's flurry ability being used in a grapple, and having it use the monk's level apply to the CMB instead of his Bab.

However, if I check the grapple rules, they state you can either release your opponent (as a free action) or attempt to maintain the grapple (as a standard action)
Assuming I want to maintain the grapple, how can I make a full attack?


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## Kaisoku (Sep 28, 2010)

Well, a developer specifically said that a Monk can flurry, as long as he keeps a hand free (so no using two monk weapons in the flurry). So if a dev says it's okay, I'm gonna go with it.

The standard action to maintain the grapple also grants an attack along with it. If you do nothing but grapple and attack I'd say that you make your grapple check and flurry as full round action.

Actually, the devs said you can make a full attack in during a grapple, as long as you meet the conditions (need one hand free to maintain, using proper weapon, etc).
The grappled condition was changed in Pathfinder to be more "I'm using one hand to grab you and hold onto you", not "I'm draped all over you". So you need to roll a maneuver check to maintain the grapple, and it's minimum a standard action, but you can make it a full round action and spend that time to make a full attack with your other hand (or any free appendage if unarmed strike).

The major point being that the standard action to maintain the grapple is kind of like the move action to draw a weapon.. it's at least the stated action, but you can do other stuff along with it.
In either case (full attack with holding grapple, or two move actions while drawing a weapon), you aren't limited to that action for the round.


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## Herzog (Sep 29, 2010)

I WANT to believe you, but I'm still hesitant.

If something ( maintain grapple ) takes a standard action, and you may make an attack/do damage as part of that standard action, that usually means you can NOT do a full attack.

Although circumstantial evidence (developers on forums) seems to indicate the standard action for maintaining a grapple follows different rules, I have yet to see a rule reference for this, as well as a direct quote.

In 3.5, you could maintain the grapple as one of your attacks (or, as some put it confusingly, as an 'attack action')

In pathfinder, maintaining a grapple is SPECIFICALLY a standard action.

I just don't see how you can make multiple attacks while grappling....


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## Kaisoku (Sep 29, 2010)

Well, I just did directly quote a developer's comment in that wrestler build thread.

Here it is again if you want:



			
				d20 PFSRD said:
			
		

> *Q: Can a monk do a Flurry of Blows during a grapple as it requires a full attack action?*
> A: (Jason Bulmahn 12/11/09)  The RAW do allow the grappled to make a full attack action, assuming  they can do so with only one hand. Since flurry does not require two  hands to perform, a monk could flurry. Grappling is not always the best  idea. Grappling a monk is one such example. I think folks need to  remember that the grappled condition is not as severe as it once was.  You are no longer draped all over the target. It is more like you got a  hold on them, typically an arm (hence the restriction). The pinned  condition is more of your greco-roman wrestling hold.




Click on the link in the name/date for the exact thread/post where he said this. This FAQ can be found at the d20pfsrd.

Considering _this is the exact person who made the changes to grappling_ saying this, you at least have the RAI behind the pathfinder rule. If the guy who made the rule says you can do it, then I'm not sure what more you need.


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## Herzog (Sep 29, 2010)

Ok, I carefully read that thread.

My conclusion: you cannot perform a flurry of blows AND maintain a grapple.

The monk that IS allowed a flurry of blows is the one that is being grappled. He does NOT have to maintain the grapple (he doesn't care if he's grappled or not, he is simply attacking) and therefore does NOT have to spend a standard action.

However, if the monk is the one initiating the grapple, than pinning the opponent, the monk is still grappling (and now has to maintain the pin instead of the grapple, but the result is the same) and therefore can only perform a single attack (as a part of maintaining the grapple/pin)


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## Kaisoku (Oct 3, 2010)

Yeah, actually.. it seems Jason did say "grappled", from the perspective of the monk being grappled himself, not the other way around.

So yeah, it seems you are pretty much limited to only one attack (two with greater grapple) per round if you are maintaining it.
If you keep manacles/rope, I guess you could keep the person pinned that way, and then full attack at your leisure. But at that point you are beating on a virtually helpless person, so I'm not sure it matters if you are a Monk (flurry + sneak attack might be overkill in that situation).


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## jdeleski (Oct 3, 2010)

I agree with the points made in the discussion above, but find one area of the "attack while grappled" rules that seems a bit odd:  the grappled creature is allowed to attack anyone within reach as long as the attack can be made with a single hand.  

The part that I find odd is that the grappled creature can make that attack, even against creatures who are outside the grapple, without first making a CMB/CMD check against the creature that controls the grapple.  Making this attack would seem to me to be similar to other combat manuevers that are attempted while within a grapple.  I can potentially see why the grappled (and not controlling) creature might be able to easily attack the grapple controlling opponent, since that opponent is right there in his face trying to maintain the grapple, but attacking creatures outside the grapple seems a stretch.  

J.


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## Ashtagon (Oct 4, 2010)

Reading the SRD, it would seem that maintaining a grapple is an attack action that, if successful, lasts an entire round. if you have multiple attacks, either from flurry or from high bab (or both), you can use one of those attacks to maintain the grapple, and the rest to attack with.


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## Herzog (Oct 4, 2010)

which SRD are you reading? 

Because, AFAIK, in Pathfinder maintaining a grapple is a *standard* action.
If you maintain a grapple successfull, you may make an attack as part of that standard action, or do unarmed damage, or pin, etc.


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## Kaisoku (Oct 4, 2010)

In fact, it's not even an "attack" (which could trigger other things that run off that). Rather, you are allowed to deal damage using unarmed strike damage or a weapon held in a free hand (light or one-handed).

So it's definitely a standard action, because there's no attack roll involved. You roll the CMB vs CMD, and after success you deal damage.


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## jdeleski (Oct 4, 2010)

Kaisoku said:


> In fact, it's not even an "attack" (which could trigger other things that run off that). Rather, you are allowed to deal damage using unarmed strike damage or a weapon held in a free hand (light or one-handed).
> 
> So it's definitely a standard action, because there's no attack roll involved. You roll the CMB vs CMD, and after success you deal damage.




But apparently the rules for attacking within a grapple are different for grapple controller as opposed to grapple defender.  From what I'm able to tell, it is true that the individual who controls the grapple must only make a CMB vs. CMD roll to damage the grappled defender, and does not need to make an attack roll to do so. But it appears that the grapple defender (the creature who is in the grapple but doesn't control the grapple) must make attack rolls at -2 to hit and damage any "creature within reach", including the grapple controller. 

I really think that the grapple defender should have to make a CMB vs. CMD check to attack any creature outside the grapple, but that's my own opinion.  If the grapple defender wants to attack the grapple controller, then yeah, a simple attack roll would suffice (since the grapple controller is right there, in the defender's face, trying to maintain the grapple).

J.

EDIT:  Added a couple of clarifying sentences.


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## Friend of the Dork (Oct 20, 2010)

*Grappling!*

Sigh.. I thought the new grapple rules were supposed to be less complicated and more steamlined than 3.5 grapple (at least that's what supposed to be one of the winning points of PF). 

After rereading the grapple rules it seems it has changed more than I thought initially: 

1. Grappled creatures (controller OR victim) both retain their dex to ac, (and thus cannot be sneak attacked that easily), but both also take a -4 penalty to dex, meaning among other things that their CMD is lowered (as is their AC), and yes this even applies to the actual grapplers!

2. Once grapple is initiated it is easier for both sides to take control or break free of the grapple..., although the controller gets a +5 to maintain the grapple (but not to prevent the grappled from breaking free). 

3. If you succeed a grapple check you are both considered Grappled, but the "controlling grappler" gets a +5 bonus of CMBs vs the controlled. 

4. There is no longer a touch attack to initiate a grapple, just a combat maneuver (CMB vs CMD). This means characters with Dodge bonuses, Deflection Bonuses etc. are more vulnerable to grapple, while big strong warrior-types have much better chance to avoid such. 

5. If the defender hits with an AoO as the grapple is initiated, it does not prevent the attacker from continuing the grapple (unless of course he runs out of hit points). 

6. There is no longer that difficult for a halfling to grapple an ogre. That is, the larget only recieves a "net" +2 to CMs. Still strength matter more, it is easier for the ogre to grapple the halfling than the halfling to grapple the ogre (or to break free if he is grappled in the first place, unless Escape Artist is used). 

7. If you already control the grapple and succeed a CMB to maintain it, you can in addition either move, damage, pin or tie up the defender. You cannot actually full attack though, since you need to use a standard action or the grapple ends (unless you have an extra standard action per turn somehow..). If you choose to inflict damage as an attack there are no rules concerning critical hits, power attack etc. since you don't actually make an attack roll just inflict damage "as if attacking with a light weapon or 1-handed weapon." 

8. Having multiple attacks will in no way help you grapple more or easier, although BAB counts. You can now still use you longsword/mace etc (1-hand required). while you are grappled, without having to win any grapple check. So it seems grappling is only worthwhile if the enemy has a two-handed weapon.  

9. The defender can actually attack while in grapple instead of trying to break free, but only with one hand (or light weapons, although I've never heard of light weapons that are two-handed so I assume this is redundant). He also recieves a -2 penalty on all attacks, but since the grapler has -4 dex attacking him has no net penalty! 

This could result in: Fighter runs over to enemy and uses grapple (with Improved Grapple Feat for no AoO). Fighter succeeds. Enemy fighter thinks "eh" and performs a full attack on the fighter, at no real penalty. Of course that enables the fighter to easily Pin the defender next round, which should put a stop to such nonsense. I can't actually see that Pinning prevents you from attacking, it only says "A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take" and specifying a few things it can't do (moving, casting spells with somatic components etc.)and some it can. To be honest though you can interpret the actions listed as the only actions allowed. 

Technically, since you're also flat-footed you cannot make AoOs unless you possess the Combat Reflexes feat... ? 

The Pinned condition specifices that it does not stack with Grappled (as being a more severe condition), but does that mean you replace Grappled with Pinned or that you use the highest of the penalties involed? 

Let's see the differences: 

1. Pinned replaces Grappled: You lose the -4 to dex but instead recieve a -4 to AC, making you easier to attack by outsiders but harder to continue to pin/grapple/damage in grapple.. ???? You still cannot move, but you can now make AoO IF you have the Combat Reflexes feat. You also lose any (positive) dex to ac, unless you have Uncanny dodge. You no longer have penalties on attack and CMB, but might be interpreted as being unable to do so anyway. 

2. Pinned is in addition to Grappled but same effects do not stack: Since you retain the dex penalty you have the same poor CMD, and your net loss to AC is actually -6. If for some reason you are allowed to attack while Pinned, you still recieve the -2 and cannot make AoOs at all not matter what. 

I think Pinned is meant to list available actions and thus the penalties to attack from Grappled is meaningless, and that the penalty to dex is thought to be pointless because of the -4 to AC. The problem I have with that though is that once Pinned you are actually harder to grapple more for others!

Ok thats' it folks... I'm not sure if I like all the changes in grappling, especially the lack of being able to use full attack in conjunction with grapple. Now unless someone can show us an errata here RAW is clear on this point. It may not be RAI.. but that's what you have erratas for.


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## Kaiyanwang (Oct 20, 2010)

About point 4.. 

Remember that every dodge bonus to AC goes to CMD. So, what you said is _partially _correct.


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## Friend of the Dork (Oct 20, 2010)

Kaiyanwang said:


> About point 4..
> 
> Remember that every dodge bonus to AC goes to CMD. So, what you said is _partially _correct.




Hmm yes apparantly Deflection bonuses as well and some others. Any other points?

Edit: I noticed on point 7. that you could read the damage part to mean you can choose between the listen types of damages without being actually required to have the correct item. Of course that's a stupid literal interpretation. But the description is still vage about what modifers to damage apply.. power attack? Favored Enemy? Str bonus? magic item bonus?


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