# Victorian Eberron idea



## drothgery (Apr 6, 2007)

Edit: Recruiting thread at http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3472737

I've got an idea bouncing around in my head for a game, so I'm trying to figure out...
- if there's any interest in the proposed setting and
- if the rules I'm thinking of using make sense

The basic notion is this...

There were, perhaps, many ways to have stopped what happened in the centuries after the fall of Galifar. Perhaps with more direct aid, the Kalashtar of Adar could have prevented the Quori from building the devices across all of Riedra which allowed them to manifest themselves in Eberron. Perhaps if the Druids of the Reaches had maintained faith with the Gatekeepers instead of turning to other traditions, they would have had the strength to close the doorways that the Inspired had opened. Perhaps if the wizards of Arcanix had been more convinced of their own power, and less desperate, they would not have attempted to free what was bound in Khyber in hopes that two great evils would destroy each other. Perhaps if the peoples of the Five Nations had been more vigilant, the cults of the Dragon Below would have been destroyed, and there would have been nothing for them to find and use to succeed to some degree. Perhaps if the wounds between Aundair and Thrane had ever been fully healed, Aundair would have heeded the warnings the oracles of Church of the Silver Flame had sent.

But it had happened, and as great evils fought each other and the great heroes that tried to stop them -- the Kalashtar died to the last, as did the last of the Gatekeepers. The armies of the Five Nations. By the time the Keeper of the Flame sacrificed himself to bind the last, all of the old peoples save for humankind were reduced to tiny, isolated communities or destroyed entirely. 

And though that was well over a thousand years ago as of this writing, only humanity has truly risen from the ashes. But the great magics that were unleashed in that desperate struggle are almost entirely lost. Bards songs no longer command power, the spellbooks of the wizards of the Arcane Congress are lost, and there has not been one born with powers of sorcery or any true or aberrant Dragonmark in over a millenia. Some who channel primal forces of good and evil still command as much power as they did in days long past, and the archivists claim with the proper focus any magic is still possible. But the days of magewrights by the scores working in the great cities is long past. 

Fortunately, the minds that once would have turned their thoughts to arcane power have persued other endeavours in our time. We have no airships or bound elementals in our time, but we do have rails of iron and steam along the routes the lightning rail once ran, and steamships are reclaiming the seas. Telegraph lines may not be as fast as speaking stones are supposed to have been, but they are no less a wonder. And while mankind's enemies need not fear _fireballs_, they must take our canon and and muskets into account.

One would think, in an age of such wonders, none would seek out those great evils that remained bound through the cataclysmic end of the last age. But there have always been those who seek shortcuts to power, and those who seek to cheat death. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to stop them.

- Father Mikel ir'Indari, Knight of the Flame, Knight Commander of the Inquisition

mechanically, here's what I'm thinking

allowed classes

- tweaked archivist (learns fewer spells automatically, can gain spells from cleric, druid, healer, dread necromancer, and wizard lists -- and no others)
- tweaked healer (significantly powered up, warmage-style caster, no unicorn, can turn undead)
- tweaked dread necromancer (slightly de-powered, doesn't automatically become a lich)
- tweaked swashbuckler (Living Eberron version: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2964384&postcount=3)
- tweaked marhsal (find some way to make them not suck)
- paladin
- fighter
- scout
- hexblade
- rogue

equipment notes
- firearms are available, fairly reliable, and are reasonably priced (a first-level character could start with a pistol or musket)
- magic items are extremely expensive (with the exception of _holy_ versions of common weapons, which are merely very expensive)
- extrodinary quality/mastercraft items and alchemical items can duplicate some magical effects
- PCs will get some bonuses to compensate for the lack of magic items

So what do you guys think?

Edit: Here's some summary posts on a few issues for this game -
classes:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3451476&postcount=45

bonuses by level:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3453361&postcount=49

major nations:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3444463&postcount=29

major religions:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3445164&postcount=38

notes on magic items:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3442724&postcount=9


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## Ivellious (Apr 6, 2007)

First off it sounds great to me, but I do see a few problems with it.  First off, granting bonuses for the compensation of less magical items, big problem.  You would fair alot better just editing the encounters so that magical items arent need to survive. Second the holy version of common weapons has me questioning what you mean by that.  Give an example, leads to less confusion 
Other than that I'm game for trying it out.


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## stonegod (Apr 7, 2007)

By holy, I'm assuming 'e means _+1 holy longsword_ et al.

So, steampunk Eberron, eh? I assume there are a lot of details left out on purpose (what was the Chamber doing then and now?, etc.) Of course, the question is: W/o wide magic, what makes it still Eberron? Does is still have pulp action? Dark adventure? As an example: While the _magic_ of the houses may be gone, perhaps the economic influences that they once had are or have been rebuilt. Was Cannith behind the train, for example?

I think the Knight from PHBII would be a good fit. You can check the changes we made to the Swashbuckler in Living Eberron to see on that may not suck as much.

The ir'Indari's just can't die, can they? 

I enjoyed your previous game, so I'm interested in seeing this develop.


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## drothgery (Apr 7, 2007)

Ivellious said:
			
		

> First off it sounds great to me, but I do see a few problems with it.  First off, granting bonuses for the compensation of less magical items, big problem.  You would fair alot better just editing the encounters so that magical items arent need to survive.




I think that results in pretty serious balance problems. I'm leaving a few major caster classes (i.e. those that get 9 levels of spells/powers) in the game, and my experience with low magic item games says that major casters will dominate said games beyond very low levels if I don't do something to help the non-casters.



			
				Ivellious said:
			
		

> Second the holy version of common weapons has me questioning what you mean by that.  Give an example, leads to less confusion.




Exactly what I said. Basically, people who can make magic weapons are very rare, and are, with very few exceptions, high level archivists who work for the Church of the Silver Flame. Hence most magic weapons that are the kind of things the Church would want made; i.e. _holy_ swords, bows, crossbows, and firearms. Anything else that's around is probably a pre-cataclysm antique, which a collector might sell, but finding one and arranging a purchase will probably be an adventurer in it's own right.


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## drothgery (Apr 7, 2007)

stonegod said:
			
		

> By holy, I'm assuming 'e means _+1 holy longsword_ et al.




Yup.



			
				stonegod said:
			
		

> So, steampunk Eberron, eh? I assume there are a lot of details left out on purpose (what was the Chamber doing then and now?, etc.)




That, and because I haven't really figured them out. It's safe to assume, though, that dragons are even more rare in this game than in 'standard' Eberron -- and an encountered dragon is never just hungry.



			
				stonegod said:
			
		

> Of course, the question is: W/o wide magic, what makes it still Eberron? Does is still have pulp action? Dark adventure? As an example: While the _magic_ of the houses may be gone, perhaps the economic influences that they once had are or have been rebuilt. Was Cannith behind the train, for example?




All very good questions. But it should definitely have pulp action and dark adventure, but the trappings will feature more technology (ableit 1800s-ish), and more subtle magic. I'll admit straight out that probably half the reason this is Eberron is because I didn't want to build my own cosmology or ancient myths of fallen civilizations up from scratch.



			
				stonegod said:
			
		

> I think the Knight from PHBII would be a good fit.




In a lot of ways it would, but it'd definitely need tweaking; heavily armored horsemen with lances are definitely on their way out. I may need to do something with paladins, too, since neither the special mount nor the PHB2 alternative really plays well.



			
				stonegod said:
			
		

> You can check the changes we made to the Swashbuckler in Living Eberron to see on that may not suck as much.




Will do.



			
				stonegod said:
			
		

> The ir'Indari's just can't die, can they?




Of course not.



			
				stonegod said:
			
		

> I enjoyed your previous game, so I'm interested in seeing this develop.




Thanks.


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## stonegod (Apr 7, 2007)

drothgery said:
			
		

> In a lot of ways it would, but it'd definitely need tweaking; heavily armored horsemen with lances are definitely on their way out. I may need to do something with paladins, too, since neither the special mount nor the PHB2 alternative really plays well.



For Knights, taking away the bonus mounted feat would help address that; removing the Heavy Armor Prof. for most martial classes might nerf the big tin cans.  If knights are mounted calvary, than keeping the feat but introducing a feat chain or tweaking so that it assists with firearms and mounts might be the right thing.

As for balancing w/ the new armor, you may want to consider the Armor as DR or Defense Bonus variants as presented in UA. The latter works really well in a setting w/ less armor.


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## pathfinderq1 (Apr 7, 2007)

This does sound interesting, and it meshes quite well with some ideas I had been thinking about as well- some of the elements from Eberron seem to fit quite well with Victoriana/steampunk.  If you have done so already, you might want to read Iron Council and Perdido Street Station by China Mieville.  Both feature a very steampunky setting with some pure magical elements (Constructs, alchemy, and golems, for example, and part of Perdido features a party of very Eberron-ish "adventurers"- including one wielding an enchanted flintlock pistol).

I'll be very interested in seeing how this idea developes.


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## drothgery (Apr 7, 2007)

stonegod said:
			
		

> As for balancing w/ the new armor, you may want to consider the Armor as DR or Defense Bonus variants as presented in UA. The latter works really well in a setting w/ less armor.




I'm definitely leaning pretty strongly to the Defense Bonus variant, and I like the suggestion of dropping heavy armor prof from the classes that get it (though they'd still get to use the best class defense bonus).

Also, I think I'm taking your suggestion of using the Living Eberron modifications for a swashbuckler that doesn't suck... 
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2964384&postcount=3


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## drothgery (Apr 9, 2007)

*Magic items and 'the big six'*

This game, if I run it, will be a fairly low-magic item setting. But, as I mentioned above, I believe that if you're keeping some 9 spell level casters around (and I am), then it's just not possible to have a balanced game without providing some alternative to the lost magic items. So here's where I'm going with that...


*armor* (normally provided by armor, shields, rings of protection, and amulets of natural armor)

- characters will have a class defense bonus, as per unearthed aracana
- I'm unsure if I'll need to do anything beyond this; if I don't, characters will have significantly lower armor classes at mid levels and higher than they would in standard D&D

*weapons*

- firearms will be available; exact cost and stats are to be determined, but they should be reflective of the general mid-1800s Europe tech level. Whatever stats I end up using, personal weapons will not have a missfire chance, and will be mechanically superior to crossbows.
- mastercraft weapons will be available. Although produced by craftsman in a manner similar to masterwork weapons, they provide the same effect (at the same cost) as +1 to +5 enhancement bonuses, though they do not overcome DR/magic
- the following qualities can be produced alchemically, and added to mastercraft weapons
	* flaming
	* flaming burst
	* frost
	* icy burst
	* shock
	* shocking burst
	* keen
- rather than the bonuses described in the Eberron campaign setting, beyshyk weapons are always treated as magic (though this provides no other bonus)
- _holy_ weapons are available, albeit at a significant markup (to be determined) from DMG price
- other weapons may (rarely) exist as ancient relics, or, even more rarely, be newly crafted, but in any case acquiring one will be a major task, not a simple financial transaction

*stat boosters* (gloves of dexterity, headbands of intellect, amulets of health, belts of strength, cloaks of charsima, periapts of wisdom)
- characters will gain more stat bonuses than the standard +1 every 4 levels

I'm not sure what will be best here; my working idea is a +2 at every other level, and you can't improve the same stat twice in a row. My thinking on this is that when I built a 14th-level standard wealth character a few weeks ago, he had a +6 item, two +4 items, and three +1 bonuses from levels; by 20th level, that would have been three +6 items, possibly a book or two, and +5 from levels. So acquiring 20 points of stat boosts, with no one stat picking up more than +10, over 20 levels seems reasonable.

*save boosters* (cloak/vest of resistance)
- charactesr will gain a +1 resistance bonus to saves every 4 levels


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## EvolutionKB (Apr 9, 2007)

Interesting, what of warforged and reactions toward them(if they exist)?


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## drothgery (Apr 9, 2007)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> Interesting, what of warforged and reactions toward them(if they exist)?




Here's what Father ir'Indari says:

Although there are rumors than some warforged survived the cataclysm, it has never been proven; if they have, they have hidden themselves very well. What is certain is that the so-called 'secret' creatation forges in the bowls of Sharn and in what was once the Mournland were destroyed, and the one called the Lord of the Blades most definitely perished. Although some sources credit one of the nightmares unleashed during the cataclysm with his destruction, my information suggests he was destroyed by a band of Cyran expatriot adventurers centuries earlier.


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 9, 2007)

drothgery said:
			
		

> - firearms will be available; exact cost and stats are to be determined, but they should be reflective of the general mid-1800s Europe tech level. Whatever stats I end up using, personal weapons will not have a missfire chance, and will be mechanically superior to crossbows.





This sounds pretty awesome, I'd love to play in it. But as for firearms, i would assume they woud lots more damage than a crossbow, but wouldn't they take longer to reload?


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## drothgery (Apr 9, 2007)

Necro_Kinder said:
			
		

> This sounds pretty awesome, I'd love to play in it. But as for firearms, i would assume they woud lots more damage than a crossbow, but wouldn't they take longer to reload?




I'm not an expert on American Civil War/Franco-Prussian War/Wild West/Victorian Era firearms, but while the guns of the day were by no means modern automatics, the firearms I'm proposing to have around aren't _early_ firearms. I'll have to do some research on this, but I think that guns and ammo had advanced to the point that no, they wouldn't take longer to reload (and in fact, were probably already faster). But while they'll do more damage than crossbows, it's not going to be lots more (I'm thinking 2d4 pistols, 2d6 rifles).


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## Blind Azathoth (Apr 9, 2007)

I just wanted to say that I would be all over this like white on rice.

...White rice.

When you say that only humanity has truly risen from the ashes, do you mean that they would be the only playable race available?


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## drothgery (Apr 9, 2007)

Blind Azathoth said:
			
		

> When you say that only humanity has truly risen from the ashes, do you mean that they would be the only playable race available?




Father ir'Indari doesn't really see the Khorvar as independent from human society; half-elves are still around (and definitely playable).

Anything else would be case by case. It's possible changelings are still around, but if they are, they're pretending to be human. Isolated communities of dwarves, gnomes, and halflings exist, mostly tied to what were the Dragonmarked houses. Full-blooded elves outside of Arenal are almost unknown, and the numbers there are not what they were (much of the Undying Court having perished in the cataclysm). Shifters, orcs, half-orcs, and goblinoids suffered badly at the hands of humans and Khorvar in the years immediately after the cataclysm; some might remain on other continents, but there are none in Khorvaire.


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 9, 2007)

drothgery said:
			
		

> I'm not an expert on American Civil War/Franco-Prussian War/Wild West/Victorian Era firearms, but while the guns of the day were by no means modern automatics, the firearms I'm proposing to have around aren't _early_ firearms.




Well, not to be a smart-ass, but if we're talkin mid 19th century (1800s) then the firearms would probably be muzzle loading rifles or muskets. Later, closer to the 1900s, you got reliable breach loading rilfes with better rifleing (which makes for better accuracy). Maybe masterwork could entail breach loading and rifleing?


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## Kafkonia (Apr 9, 2007)

drothgery said:
			
		

> In a lot of ways it would, but it'd definitely need tweaking; heavily armored horsemen with lances are definitely on their way out. I may need to do something with paladins, too, since neither the special mount nor the PHB2 alternative really plays well.




My DM was just showing me an article in a recent Dragon (Dungeon?) that replaced the Paladin's mount with an enchanted sword that levels up as you progress, much as the mount does. I don't know which issue, or even which magazine, sadly.


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## Shalimar (Apr 9, 2007)

The issue with Defense Bonus as it is in UA is that it leaves the classes that didn't use armor worse off then the ones that did, +6 bonus for people with Heavy Armor vs +3 for those who wore lighter armor: Swashbuckler etc.  It then goes on to suggest that a level dip into fighter really benifits these classes by letting them go from the worst/2nd worst to the best for the remainder of that character's career.  That system is kind of clunky compared to the inborn class defense bonuses of other D20 games like Wheel of Time and Star Wars which were more even and actually gave a penalty from multi-classing, then again those systems didn't have to contend with +5 shocking burst keen swords.


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## drothgery (Apr 9, 2007)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> The issue with Defense Bonus as it is in UA is that it leaves the classes that didn't use armor worse off then the ones that did, +6 bonus for people with Heavy Armor vs +3 for those who wore lighter armor: Swashbuckler etc.  It then goes on to suggest that a level dip into fighter really benifits these classes by letting them go from the worst/2nd worst to the best for the remainder of that character's career.  That system is kind of clunky compared to the inborn class defense bonuses of other D20 games like Wheel of Time and Star Wars which were more even and actually gave a penalty from multi-classing, then again those systems didn't have to contend with +5 shocking burst keen swords.




Yeah, that's definitely a problem. And the UA class defense bonus realy doesn't advance fast enough to keep up with offense. I might have to write my own tables.

groups would be

good
- swashbuckler
- fighter
- paladin
- knight

medium
- hexblade
- scout
- marshal
- rogue

poor
- dread necromancer
- healer
- archivist

I'm not really sure what I'd want the minimum and maximum values to be, though.


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## drothgery (Apr 9, 2007)

Kafkonia said:
			
		

> My DM was just showing me an article in a recent Dragon (Dungeon?) that replaced the Paladin's mount with an enchanted sword that levels up as you progress, much as the mount does. I don't know which issue, or even which magazine, sadly.




I had a thought of just granting the paladin Leadership for free at level 5.


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## Shalimar (Apr 9, 2007)

I would think that it should be a 50% chance for a person to hit another person of the same class and level which would suggest a +1/+1 BAB/Defense, but at lower leverls that would keep the defense way too low if it started at 0.


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## Jemal (Apr 9, 2007)

A friend of mine proposed something similar to me a while ago, and I thought up a Swashbuckling pistol wielder for it.. Would YOU have room?  Also, are you using that 'revamped' Swashbuckler someone mentioned earlier, or the normal one?

BTW, the paladin getting Leadership instead of Special Mount at lvl 5 is an AWESOME alternate idea.  It plays to the paladin's supposed role as the leader, and gives them something earlier than anyone else could get it.


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## Jemal (Apr 9, 2007)

*one more thing* To any of you who really enjoy this type of gaming, you should REALLY check out "Iron Heroes", it's basically a rewrite of the core rules, complete with new classes and feats, to account for a very low magic setting.  They give BAB ranging from 1/2 to 5/4 (Yes, that's 25 at lvl 20) and Defense Bonuses from 1/2 to Full, depending on what the classes strengths are.  As well as many new abilities to replace magic dependencies.

The other nice part about Iron Heroes is that it also details bits of the campaign setting around which the rules were based, too, so you needn't make one up from scratch.


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## drothgery (Apr 10, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> *one more thing* To any of you who really enjoy this type of gaming, you should REALLY check out "Iron Heroes", it's basically a rewrite of the core rules, complete with new classes and feats, to account for a very low magic setting.  They give BAB ranging from 1/2 to 5/4 (Yes, that's 25 at lvl 20) and Defense Bonuses from 1/2 to Full, depending on what the classes strengths are.  As well as many new abilities to replace magic dependencies.




I've got Iron Heroes, but it's got some basic problems
1 - Not many people have it, and if I'm going to run a game, I definitely need players for it.
2 - I don't think the core classes really give the feel I'm looking for, though I haven't looked at the book in a while.
3 - The magic system sucks.

On the other hand, if I can get the rules hammered out into something workable, a swashbuckling pistoleer should certainly be doable.


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## Shalimar (Apr 10, 2007)

Yea, a functional Swashbuckler could definitely be fun, a character like Balthier of Final Fantasy 12 would be really fun.


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## stonegod (Apr 10, 2007)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> Yea, a functional Swashbuckler could definitely be fun, a character like Balthier of Final Fantasy 12 would be really fun.



"Because I'm the hero of the piece."

Yup. That oozes cool.


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 10, 2007)

If this game gets started, i would like to play a modified scout, playing more like a sniper/skirmisher.


As a side note, there are some rules for firearms on pages144-145 of the DMG


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## Shalimar (Apr 10, 2007)

stonegod said:
			
		

> "Because I'm the hero of the piece."
> 
> Yup. That oozes cool.




Bingo, a scion of a noble house turning pirate and walking out on the house because its boring and she thinks the old man is insane.  A dashing swashbuckler performing acts of daring do.


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## drothgery (Apr 10, 2007)

Yeah, definitely cool.

Quick notes here...

The major powers of modern Khorviare...

*The Kingdom of Thrane*

(covers what was Thrane and what was Aundair)

Government: Constitutional Monarchy, though the monarch has little power 
Head of State: Queen (currently Nyllestra ir'Wynarn)
Head of Government: Prime Minister (currently Andri Varikah)
Population: 28 million (75% human, 22% half-elf, 3% other)
Capital: Flamekeep
Religion: Orthodox Church of the Silver Flame 70% (established church), Reformed Church of the Silver Flame 10%, Gabrielite 5% (an ascetic sect of the Church of the Silver Flame), other Flamic sects 5%, Sovreign Host 5%, other/aetheist 5%

*The Republic of South Khorvaire*

(covers what was Breland, Zilargo, and Darguun)

Government: Republic 
Head of State/Government: President (currently Alain Bakker)
Population: 35 million (80% human, 15% half-elf, 2% gnome, 3% other)
Capital: Sharn
Religion: Orthodox Church of the Silver Flame 35%, Reformed Church of the Silver Flame 30%, Sovreign Host 15%, other Flamic sects 10%, other/aetheist 5%

*Maradal Principalities*

(covers what was Valenar, some parts of the Talenta plains, and some parts of Q'Barra; also claims the sparsely-populated region that was once the Mournland*)

Government: Aristocracy 
Head of State/Government: First of the Council of Lords (currently Lady Cinella ir'Pylan)
Population: 18 million (60% human, 35% half-elf, 1% elf, 4% other)
Capital: Maradal (near where Pylas Maradal was)
Religion: Sovreign Host 35%, Undying Court 15%, Reformed Church of the Silver Flame 20%, Orthodox Church of the Silver Flame 15%, other Flamic sects 5%, other/aetheist 10%

* The mist over the Mournland had noticeably began to fade in 1117 YK, and had completely dissipated by the time of the cataclysm. The cause of the Day of the Mourning was never discovered. Scattered independent settlers live in the region, but residual fear keeps all but the most hardy out.


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## EvolutionKB (Apr 10, 2007)

I'd be interested if this got started.  On another note, hefe is a variant mashal, critiqued and modified using rules from ToB.  I really like it.  Sublime Marshal


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## Shalimar (Apr 10, 2007)

Why such a large population of Half-eves when there aren't any elves?


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## stonegod (Apr 10, 2007)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> Why such a large population of Half-eves when there aren't any elves?



Eberron has quite large population of half-elves historically, especially w/ the two former half-elf houses; I'm assuming that carried on.


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## Shalimar (Apr 10, 2007)

Are half-elves their own race that breeds true or are they just the product of Human/Elf matings?


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 10, 2007)

I thought they bred true between themselves. Also, would other races (shifters, kalashtar, halflings) be descriminated against by the new mostly human populus? Would that make it harder to have say, a Shifter PC?


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## stonegod (Apr 10, 2007)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> Are half-elves their own race that breeds true or are they just the product of Human/Elf matings?



They breed true.


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## drothgery (Apr 10, 2007)

stonegod said:
			
		

> Eberron has quite large population of half-elves historically, especially w/ the two former half-elf houses; I'm assuming that carried on.




That, and most elves that lived and chose not to return to Arenal did so because they had a human or half-elf spouse; most of the 'full elves' in the Maradal Principalities are actually '3/4-elves', or otherwise have just enough elven blood that they're mechanically full elves, but they do have some human ancestry.

It's probably worth noting, though, that there are more elves in the Maradal Principalities than there were in Valenar, and more gnomes in the Republic of South Khorvaire than there were in Zilargo and Breland in 998 YK. Elf (at least, if you count 3/4 elves as full elves), dwarf, and gnome populations have pretty much recovered to where they were in 998 YK, it's just that humans and half elves have grown explosively, so they seem much smaller relatively speaking. Halflings have not, because the tribes of the plains were largely wiped out.


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## drothgery (Apr 10, 2007)

Necro_Kinder said:
			
		

> Also, would other races (shifters, kalashtar, halflings) be descriminated against by the new mostly human populus? Would that make it harder to have say, a Shifter PC?




There are no kalashtar. The link between Eberron and Dal Quor has been severed, but the Quori that their Inspired minions brought to Eberron did manage to hunt down every last bearer of the spirit of those who fled before they were all destroyed in turn (mostly by evils even greater than themselves). Halflings aren't discriminated against, but there just aren't very many of them. Shifters, on the other hand, are definitely discriminated against, and those that survive tend to live in regions that have not been claimed by the new nations of men and half-elves; currently this is most of western Khorvaire (what was the Eldeen Reaches, Shadow Marches, Demon Wastes, and Droamm). They weren't hit as hard as goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs by the vengeful armies of men and Khorvar in the rise and breakup of the Empire of the Flame (57 AS - 228 AS), but they were definitely hit.


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## drothgery (Apr 10, 2007)

*Religion*

*The Church of the Silver Flame*

Largely because Flamekeep was the only major city that survived the cataclysm with minimal damage, because it was the sacrifice of the Keeper of the Flame that finally ended the time of Great Evils roaming free on Eberron, and because the initial expansion of civilized humanity out from Thrane was under the aegis of the short-lived Empire of the Flame, the Church of the Silver Flame is the dominant faith in Khorvaire. Not surprisngly, the faith has splintered over the centuries.

_Orthodox Church of the Silver Flame_

Easily the largest sect within the Church of the Silver Flame, the Orthodox faith is pretty much the faith as described in standard Eberron materials. The major changes have been the loss of temporal authority in Thrane (though the church still has great influence there), and some success by the Holy Office of the Inquisition in removing evil priests from positions of authority. The Keeper of the Flame is nominally of the Orthodox sect, and the Council of Cardinals are the church authorities.

_Reformed Church of the Silver Flame_

The major doctrinal difference between the Reformed Church and the Orthodox church is that they reject the authority of the Council of Cardinals, and emphasize personal faith more than collective action. The Reformed Church was established when the King of Wroat had a major dispute with the Orthodox Church regarding a corrupt local cardinal (the Kingdom of Wroat has long since been subsumed into the Republic of South Khorvaire). The Reformed Church is Chaotic Good.

_Other Flamic Sects_

There are scores of other breakaway sects from the mainline Church. Almost all reject the authority of the Council of Cardinals, but recognize the Keeper as the mortal representative of the Flame. The largest of them is the Gabrielite* ascetics, who actually predate the cataclysm; they tend to eschew material possesions, and, unlike the mainline church, do not object to resurrection magic. Flamic sects exists of every Good and Neutral (with respect to Good and Evil) alignment.

*The Host of the Faithful*

Followers of the Sovreign Host were once a majority in Khorvaire, and are still a significant minority. The faith is substantially less organized than the Orthodox -- or even Reformed -- Church of the Flame, which hurts its influence even in nations where its followers are a plurality.

*The Undying Court*

Many of the Undying were slain when the great evils released in the cataclysm turned their attention to Arenal, but they -- and the elves -- were ancient and powerful, and many elven heroes returned to Arenal to defend them. Some of the Court did survive, and the elves of Arenal, and many of the elves and half-elves of the Maradal Prinicipalities still follow the Court.

* And were sort-of established by a PC in my tabletop game.


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## Jemal (Apr 11, 2007)

I was picturing a swashbuckler/fighter who uses pistols.  (High dex/int, lotsa skills, pistol's are light weapons and thus gain the swashbuckler's int to damage.  Fighting defensively in light/no armour, quipping, etc.). 

The reason swashbuckler's suck is b/c they're basically a dip class, (Similar to monks/paladins, except monk's and paladins have SOME reason to take more than a few levels).  After level 3 they don't really have anything that I find fun.  Dodge bonus +1(single target) every 5 levels?  woohoo.  Maybe if it were a flat out Dodge bonus to AC (and not single opponent), like monk.. And as for Grace and improved flanking.. 

The problem with Swashbucklers is that while a lot of their abilities make sense (Weapon Finesse, acrobatic charge, acrobatic skill mastery), they aren't very USEFUL.
Some of the higher level stuf, while powerful, either comes too late to be useful(slippery mind at lvl 17?), or is based off of Crits (weakening and wounding critical)... Meaning to make proper use of them you should be playing a 'crit character'.  

My biggest problem is that they don't have a good END ability (Unless, as stated before, you're into crits, and I don't like playing crit characters b/c there's a good chance at high level that your opponent will be immune)

Personally what I'd do to it is drop grace, and instead give them a GOOD reflex save.  Replace the dodge bonus with a +1/5 levels Dodge Bonus to AC and drop Improved Flanking for Uncanny Dodge at lvl 2, Improved Uncanny dodge at level 8.. (I never saw swashbuckling as focusing on one opponent, I picture people moving and fighting several foes, fencing with three opponents at a time.. you know, MOVIE swashbucklers).   

NOW, at this point there's two ways to go.. If you want the swashbuckler to be a critical hit character, keep weakening/wounding critical, and add Improved Critical as a bonus feat at level 9.
Otherwise, i'd drop those two in favour of bonus feats or specific rogue special abilities(Defensive roll/Opportunist?) at levels 9, 14 and 19.

BTW, keep in mind that As it stands, Swashbuckler doesn't have any real 'dead' levels, because all the levels when they don't gain a class ability they either gain a feat or a stat point (4,6,9,12,16)


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## nonamazing (Apr 11, 2007)

What if the alchemists had found a very easy way to work with cold iron?  Cold iron weapons could be very common, and perhaps many of the major new structures (such as the new rails, etc.) could be made of cold iron.  Maybe that's one of the things helping to keep magic "down"?  It would be interesting if most of the ammunition for the firearms were made of cold iron.  If my history is accurate (and it may not be), firearms dominated the battlefield because they were capable of piercing any sort of armor.  Maybe in a quasi-magical world, firearms dominated because the cold iron bullets had the ability to pierce magical defenses.

It seems like alchemy will will be important in this setting.  Will it be fairly common?  It seems that if the players have a chance to get themselves prepared, they can make good use of alchemy to deal with various problems (i.e, using alchemist's fire to deal with creatures weak against fire).  You'll just want to make sure that most of the monsters your players fight have some sort of exploitable weakness.

If your main concern is balance, keep in mind that if the majority of opponents are humanoids with class levels, then the game balance will be intact, assuming the opponents are also lacking magic items and using the same optional rules as the players (such as the defense bonus rules and the variant classes).  If the characters will be fighting monsters, then you'll need to consider different variables, as the CRs won't quite match up.  But that might actually work in your favor: it may be that battling monsters is _meant_ to be extremely difficult and dangerous.

What about giving some (if not all) of these classes have extra skill points? (To reflect a more educated society, and because a broad foundation of skills may be useful in a low magic setting.)

What other sorts of cool non-magical equipment might the characters have access to, in addition to firearms?


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## Jemal (Apr 11, 2007)

Hmm, question - I'm assuming that since Alchemy = Big and Magic = Not so Big, that the Spellcasting requirements on Craft: Alchemy will be suspended?

Also, in regards to the last post about Extra Skill points : Instead of (Or, maybe, in addition to) extra skill points, I'd think a more 'educated' society would have more CLASS skills as opposed to so many being cross class, with some obvious ones being nearly nonexistant (Knowledge:Arcana/The Planes, and Spellcraft spring to mind, while other knowledge skills would probably be MORE common.)


As for nonmagical equipment, I like the "Masterwork/Exceptional quality" functions... You could still have a "+2 sword", it just wouldn't be a MAGICAL +2. (Such a system exists in both d20modern and star wars).

Also, if you're doing the Class defense bonus, then perhaps the armour=DR variant? I know armour would be a bit out-of-date in a time like this, but even in Modern times people still wear (Albeit highly different) armour.  Elven Chain could be the equivalent of Kevlar.. Light fitting, good protection, etc.  Full plate = Tactical full-body armour?


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## drothgery (Apr 12, 2007)

I'm consolidating replies to a lot of things in this post, which is being constructed in bits and pieces....



			
				EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> On another note, hefe is a variant mashal, critiqued and modified using rules from ToB.  I really like it.  Sublime Marshal




In the interests of keeping things simple for me, I'm keeping just one magic system in this game (standard D&D spellcasting, albeit via nonstandard classes). No ToB manuevers, no psionics, no binders, no pact/shadow magic, and no warlock/dragonfire adpet invokations. So suggestions for an improved marshal are still welcome.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> The reason swashbuckler's suck is b/c they're basically a dip class, (Similar to monks/paladins, except monk's and paladins have SOME reason to take more than a few levels).  After level 3 they don't really have anything that I find fun.




I'm going to be using the Living Eberron modified Swashbuckler that stonegod referenced above; there's now a pointer to it in the first post.



			
				nonamazing said:
			
		

> It seems like alchemy will will be important in this setting.  Will it be fairly common?




It's more important, and more common, than in standard D&D, or standard Eberron. But generally speaking, 'conventional' chemistry is more important than alchemy (anything not explicitly magical or alchemical should obey the laws of physics).


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## EvolutionKB (Apr 12, 2007)

I was kind of thinking along the line of a human or changling(if possible).  A paladin/rogue (high dex, chr).  Obscessed with personal honor("I challenge you to a duel.")  Kind of a James Bond type, good socially but can carry their own on the front lines(not sneaky).  Having a woman in every city.  Main role in the church is to be the mediator with those in power, attending political functions, big ceremonies, as well a info gathering.


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## drothgery (Apr 13, 2007)

Well, it definitely looks like there's enough interest to try and run this thing. So once I get the rules flushed out and come up with a first adventure, I'll post a recruiting thread. In the mean time, I'm going to keep adding on rules proposals and background here.


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## drothgery (Apr 13, 2007)

*classes*

*archivist*
The archivist is modified from its presentation in Heroes of Horror

- Archivists can learn any spell on the cleric, druid, dread necromancer, healer, or sorcerer/wizard list. They cannot learn spells which only appear on other lists, including domain lists.
- All spells the archivist casts are considered divine, no matter where they came from
- Archivists only learn one new spell per level automatically, which must be from the cleric list
- If a spell appears on the cleric list, its level for archivists is its level on the cleric list; if it appears on more than one other list that the archivist has access to (but not on the cleric list), its level for archivists is the highest level that it appears at
- archivists gain 6 skill points/level, not 4

*dread necromancer*
- dread necromancers do not gain the lich body ability               
- dread necromancers do not gain fortification                       
- dread necromancers do not automatically become a lich at 20th level
- dread necromancers gain 4 skill points/level, not 2

*fighter*
- the alternate class features from PHB2 are available
- fighers gain 4 skill points/level, not 2
- add knowledge (history) and knowledge (Architecture and engineering) to the fighter's list of class skills

*healer*
- healers spontaneously cast any spell on their list, in the manner of the dread necromancer or warmage
- healers do not gain a unicorn companion
- at first level, healers gain the ability to turn undead, as per the cleric ability; a healer's effective cleric level for purposes of turning undead is her healer level
- healers gain the Advanced Learning class feature (as per the Dread Necromancer or Warmage) at 3rd, 6th, 11th, and 16th level; each time, they can add one spell to their list from the Good, Protection, or Sun domains
- healers may be of any nonevil alignment

Note: Healers in the Orthodox Church of the Silver Flame (the majority) will not cast Raise Dead, Resurrection, or True Resurrection in most cases.

*hexblade*
- The Dark Companion alternate class feature is available
- hexblades gain 4 skill points/level, not 2
- knowledge (religion) is a class skill for hexblades

*knight*

TBD; I'd like to have them around, but the heavy armor/mounted combat focus seems hard to redirect.

*marhsal*

- marshals can use the alternate class feature in PHB2
- at third level, the marshal gains the inspiration ability, which can be used once per day per 3 marshal levels. This is identical to the bard's Bardic Music ability, except that the relevant skill is Diplomacy, the Marshal only learns the Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics abilities, and these abilities are (Ex), not (Su).

*paladin*

- Instead of gaining a special mount at level 5, paladins automatically gain the Leadership feat.
- paladins gain 4 skill points/level, not 2

*rogue*
- the alternate class feature from the PHB2 is available
- at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Rogues gain a free Skill Focus feat; I'm giving almost everyone else extra skill points, and rogues should stay the top skill guys

*scout*
- scouts gain the Track feat at first level
- manyshot and improved manyshot may be used in conjunction with the skirmish ability

*swashbuckler* 
The Living Eberron version of the scout at 
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2964384&postcount=3
will be used


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## Jemal (Apr 13, 2007)

Just some things to think of: 
Are you starting at first level or higher? (pls say higher, I'm bored of first and second level).
Some examples of the chemical/Mechanical advances & things available to characters 
What ARE you doing to compensate for the lack of Magic?(If anything?)
What're the Defense bonuses going to be for the varrying classes?
Who are these people? (Seinfeld joke)


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## drothgery (Apr 13, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Just some things to think of:
> Are you starting at first level or higher? (pls say higher, I'm bored of first and second level).




Somewhere in the 3rd-5th range.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Some examples of the chemical/Mechanical advances & things available to characters




I haven't really thought of anything beyond firearms and alchemical substitutes for certain magic qualities (as per up-thread).



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> What ARE you doing to compensate for the lack of Magic?(If anything?)




- magic weapons should be nicely compensated for by firearms, superior quality and/or alchemical weapons, and limitted availability of certain magic weapons
- magic armor and other magical protective devices should be compensated for by a class defense bonus
- stat boosters should be compensated for by gaining stat bonuses somewhat faster than the standard +1 every 4 levels



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> What're the Defense bonuses going to be for the varrying classes?




I'm not sure yet. I'm thinking for now ...

good: +6 (at level 1) to +18 (at level 20)
- swashbuckler
- fighter
- paladin
- knight

medium: +4 (at level 1) to +14 (at level 20)
- hexblade
- scout
- marshal
- rogue

poor: +2 (at level 1) to +10 (at level 20)
- dread necromancer
- healer
- archivist


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## nonamazing (Apr 13, 2007)

It may be hard to find now, but there was an early WoTC book called the Arms & Equipment Guide which had a lot of neat non-magical equipment in it.  You might want to check it out if you have a chance.  There's also some neat alchemical stuff in Complete Adventurer which would be pretty useful, and the skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel might also fit into this game.

What do you specifically see as the main weakness of the Marshal?  I think it's a neat class too, and I'll do my best to come up with ideas for it.


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## drothgery (Apr 14, 2007)

okay, here goes various bonus progressions

```
class defense bonus
level   good    medium  poor     special
1       6       4       2        
2       6       4       2        
3       7       5       3        +2 to stat A
4       8       5       3
5       8       6       4        +1 resistance bonus to saves
6       9       6       4        +2 to stat B
7       10      7       5
8       10      8       5
9       11      8       5        +2 to stat C
10      12      9       6        +1 resistance bonus to saves
11      12      9       6
12      13      10      7        +4 to stat A
13      14      10      7
14      14      11      8
15      15      12      8        +1 resistance bonus to saves, +4 to stat B
16      16      12      9
17      16      13      9
18      17      13      10       +4 to stat C
19      18      14      10
20      18      14      10       +1 resistance bonus to saves
```


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## drothgery (Apr 14, 2007)

nonamazing said:
			
		

> It may be hard to find now, but there was an early WoTC book called the Arms & Equipment Guide which had a lot of neat non-magical equipment in it.  You might want to check it out if you have a chance.  There's also some neat alchemical stuff in Complete Adventurer which would be pretty useful, and the skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel might also fit into this game.




I'm probably going to allow mundane and alchemical equipment from any of the Complete books except for Psionic, as well as PHB2 and the Mini's Handbook. I've got the Arms and Equipment guide, but it's a 3.0 book, so I'll review anything there on a case by case basis.



			
				nonamazing said:
			
		

> What do you specifically see as the main weakness of the Marshal?  I think it's a neat class too, and I'll do my best to come up with ideas for it.




It seems like their primary roll is a buff guy, and they don't really do that as well as a bard -- which isn't all that strong of a class.

Hmm.. first cut
- marshals can use the alternate class feature in PHB2
- at third level, the marshal gains the *inspiration* ability, which can be used once per day per 3 marshal levels. This is identical to the bard's Bardic Music ability, except that the relevant skill is Diplomacy, the Marshal only learns the Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics abilities, and these abilities are (Ex), not (Su).


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## Shalimar (Apr 14, 2007)

What would be used for Stat Generaton?


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## drothgery (Apr 14, 2007)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> What would be used for Stat Generaton?




28 point buy. Between that and much faster stat increases than normal, you shouldn't miss the gloves of dexterity and headbands of intellect.


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## EvolutionKB (Apr 14, 2007)

There are some good alchemical items in the Planar Handbook as well.


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## drothgery (Apr 14, 2007)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> There are some good alchemical items in the Planar Handbook as well.




Now that's one of the few non-FR D&D 3.x books I don't have... and since Eberron's cosmology is radically different than standard, I can't say I'm much inclined to grabbing it.


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## Blind Azathoth (Apr 15, 2007)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Now that's one of the few non-FR D&D 3.x books I don't have... and since Eberron's cosmology is radically different than standard, I can't say I'm much inclined to grabbing it.




The Planar Handbook isn't Eberron, though; it uses the standard cosmology.

Of course, it's still not that great a book...


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## drothgery (Apr 15, 2007)

Blind Azathoth said:
			
		

> The Planar Handbook isn't Eberron, though; it uses the standard cosmology.




Exactly. The vast majority of the tabletop and PBP games I play in and/or run _are_ Eberron (including this one, albeit in a somewhat modified form). A planar book that uses the standard cosmology is of little use to me most of the time.


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## Blind Azathoth (Apr 15, 2007)

Ah, well, see, I assumed it was because you use the standard cosmology and for some reason thought the Planar HB was about Eberron's cosmology and thus didn't want it. I don't know why I assumed this; it seems very silly to me now. My mistake.

And ironically, I was thinking about a genius Sherlock Holmesian detective-type for this game...


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## Jemal (Apr 15, 2007)

Blind Azathoth said:
			
		

> And ironically, I was thinking about a genius Sherlock Holmesian detective-type for this game...




Even Scotland Yard can't get'em all.  The Mounties can, however... O CANADA!!


BTW, drothgery, you sayed "much faster stat increases than normal".. care to elaborate, or haven't figured it out yet?


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## drothgery (Apr 15, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> BTW, drothgery, you sayed "much faster stat increases than normal".. care to elaborate, or haven't figured it out yet?




I'm still working on it. The problem is that a simple, straightforward progression (like the +2/ever other level, no raising the same stat twice in a row I proposed up-thread) is going to be substantially ahead of where DMG wealth puts you at low leves ... and be left in the dust by high levels. That's true of a lot of the stuff I'm doing for this game; low level characters are going to be substantially more capable than they'd be in a standard wealth/standard magic game, but high level characters are going to be substantially less capable. And I'm generally in favor of flattening the power curve some. But I'm worried a bit about side effects.

The basic problem is that it's not until 7th level that a +2 item costs less than a quarter of DMG wealth (and so is effectively affordable). But only 4 levels later (at 11th) a +4 items passes that threshhold, and three levels after that (14th) +6 items become available. And a 20th level character could have six of them and have almost half a million gp to spare for other stuff.


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## Shalimar (Apr 15, 2007)

How about +2 every 3 Levels up to 9 and then +4 from 12-18?

This also bring up the question of money, with getting our 'magic' bonues from stat increases we don't have a much we need to buy so wealth levels will probably be lower too, but then again stat boosters weren't all the magic items normally bought, there are Quiver's of Elhonna, portable holes, skill boosters (like a ring to boost Hide/Move silently), etc.


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## drothgery (Apr 15, 2007)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> How about +2 every 3 Levels up to 9 and then +4 from 12-18?
> 
> This also bring up the question of money, with getting our 'magic' bonues from stat increases we don't have a much we need to buy so wealth levels will probably be lower too, but then again stat boosters weren't all the magic items normally bought, there are Quiver's of Elhonna, portable holes, skill boosters (like a ring to boost Hide/Move silently), etc.




Yeah, wealth levels should be substantially lower. You won't need to buy stat boosters, cloaks/vests of resistance, and magic armor (or other AC boosting equipment). You will be able to buy some pretty impressive weaponry, but it largely won't be magic (or at least, that's not where it'll get most of its punch from). But the items outside of the magic item compendium's 'big six' (weapons, armor, vest/cloak of resistance, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, and stat boosters), I'm not figuring on dropping any mechanical replacements into the game.

It's also probably true that most of the magic items you end up having will, in fact, be the sort of inexpensive (to mid-level 998YK Eberron adventurers) utility stuff that was very commonly made, and so lots of ancient (but still working) copies exist. But since this Eberron lacks the magewrights, artificers, and even wizards of 998 YK Eberron, newly-made stuff is extraordinarily uncommon.


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## drothgery (Apr 16, 2007)

Just noting here that I updated the class defense bonus progression table I came up with here: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3453361&postcount=49 to include the save and stat bonus progression.

Also, I've put links to some later posts in the first post in the thread.

classes:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3451476&postcount=45

bonuses by level:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3453361&postcount=49

major nations:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3444463&postcount=29

major religions:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3445164&postcount=38

notes on magic items:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3442724&postcount=9


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## EvolutionKB (Apr 17, 2007)

Looks good.


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## EvolutionKB (Apr 21, 2007)

This going to happen?


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## drothgery (Apr 21, 2007)

EvolutionKB said:
			
		

> This going to happen?




Yes. I'm just trying to consolidate and expand on everything we worked out over here for a recruiting infodump. Probably within the next week or two.


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## EvolutionKB (Apr 21, 2007)

Okay cool.


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## stonegod (Apr 23, 2007)

FYI: Official thread up


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## drothgery (Apr 23, 2007)

stonegod said:
			
		

> FYI: Official thread up




Thanks.


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