# Fantasy Flight Games Discontinuing RPGs?



## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

Interesting. There's no hint what their source it, but if it's true, that'll be a blow.


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## vpuigdoller (Feb 18, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Interesting. There's no hint what their source it, but if it's true, that'll be a blow.



Indeed. I hope someone finds another source that either confirms or contradict it.


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## Tyler Do'Urden (Feb 18, 2020)

Pity... I'm not a big fan of their systems, but I am a fan of Star Wars and don't like seeing that license orphaned for too long. It probably won't be out of circulation for awhile- somebody will probably pick it up- but you never know...


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

Star Wars would get picked up (though it's an EXPENSIVE license). L5R will be interesting. Not sure about Genesys.


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## eyeheartawk (Feb 18, 2020)

Not surprising given the earlier news. Margins on board games are much better and consistent, no surprise they want to focus efforts there.

I don't expect the Star Wars license to remain fallow for long, even though I hear it's very expensive and a huge pain with approvals etc.

L5R? Yeah, I expect that to sit around for a good long while with nothing happening. AEG and FFG likely kept these lines going as long as they did since they were also making the card games. I'm not so sure it's very appealing on its own. The barrier for entry on that line is higher than most. In addition to learning a new game system you also have to learn a whole new set of customs.


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## James Wallis (Feb 18, 2020)

I noticed yesterday that the webpage for _The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen_ 3e (which I wrote, and which was published by the FFG RPG division) has been taken down, as has its listing on the Asmodee store, and all the ebook versions of the game. I have not received any official notice that the game is being discontinued.


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## Bravesteel25 (Feb 18, 2020)

Helped bring this to EN World's attention time to level up!


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

Last I heard on the SW license - and this was years ago - was that it was in the region of a $100K advance on royalties. That was all through the rumour-milll though. If that's the case, not many RPG companies could do it -- who's had a big Kickstarter in the last couple of years? Or, if all else is lost, Modiphius only has 7,942,274 licenses right now!


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## billd91 (Feb 18, 2020)

Tyler Do'Urden said:


> Pity... I'm not a big fan of their systems, but I am a fan of Star Wars and don't like seeing that license orphaned for too long. It probably won't be out of circulation for awhile- somebody will probably pick it up- but you never know...




But if someone does pick it up, it will probably be, yet again, another new rule system. All because some equity capital investment company could strip it (or more accurately Asmodee) in an effort to boost its apparent value and eventually sell it off for a profit. Hey, no matter that people lost their jobs - some investor has money to make based on the value those unemployed people built up.


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## Bravesteel25 (Feb 18, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Last I heard on the SW license - and this was years ago - was that it was in the region of a $100K advance on royalties. That was all through the rumour-milll though. If that's the case, not many RPG companies could do it -- who's had a big Kickstarter in the last couple of years? Or, if all else is lost, Modiphius only has 7,942,274 licenses right now!




It would certainly be a shame to have an era with no Star Wars RPG.


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## eyeheartawk (Feb 18, 2020)

billd91 said:


> But if someone does pick it up, it will probably be, yet again, another new rule system. All because some equity capital investment company could strip it (or more accurately Asmodee) in an effort to boost its apparent value and eventually sell it off for a profit. Hey, no matter that people lost their jobs - some investor has money to make based on the value those unemployed people built up.




I imagine the rights would revert to the rights holder. I doubt FFG can "sub-license" Star Wars. 

If you're talking about the Genesys game system more broadly, I don't know how much interest there is to license that in the greater RPG market. My guess is it would be marginal.


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## Undrave (Feb 18, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> I don't expect the Star Wars license to remain fallow for long, even though I hear it's very expensive and a huge pain with approvals etc.




I bet it's worse with Disney... they've been so utterly devoid of imagination and are so risk averse the resulting game would be super boring and limited. Probably kept in a precise period of the canon...


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## Bravesteel25 (Feb 18, 2020)

Undrave said:


> I bet it's worse with Disney... they've been so utterly devoid of imagination and are so risk averse the resulting game would be super boring and limited. Probably kept in a precise period of the canon...




Good. Release your anger.


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> I imagine the rights would revert to the rights holder. I doubt FFG can "sub-license" Star Wars.




Technically speaking, FFG will continue to have a license to produce SW games until their license expires, even if they're not using it. That said, when they first got it, there was a clause in it that they they had to produce stuff within timeframes (which is why their first product, after a year of getting the license, was just a card accessory, as the actual RPG was longer in development). So perhaps the license will self-immolate after a year of no product.


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## Marc Radle (Feb 18, 2020)

It would be interesting to see if Paizo might try for the Star Wars licence. The owners are HUGE Star Wars fans and actually tried for it years ago. Heck, they could move it over to the Star Finder rules set ...


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

Marc Radle said:


> It would be interesting to see if Paizo might try for the Star Wars licence. The owners are HUGE Star Wars fans and actually tried for it years ago. Heck, they could move it over to the Star Finder rules set ...



Ooooh! Now that idea excites me! 

PAIZO DO IT!


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## Bravesteel25 (Feb 18, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Technically speaking, FFG will continue to have a license to produce SW games until their license expires, even if they're not using it. That said, when they first got it, there was a clause in it that they they had to produce stuff within timeframes (which is why their first product, after a year of getting the license, was just a card accessory, as the actual RPG was longer in development). So perhaps the license will self-immolate after a year of no product.




Maybe, but X-Wing is still selling well, so I doubt it would come down to losing the contract over no Star Wars products being produced.


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## eyeheartawk (Feb 18, 2020)

Undrave said:


> I bet it's worse with Disney... they've been so utterly devoid of imagination and are so risk averse the resulting game would be super boring and limited. Probably kept in a precise period of the canon...




The license definitely would come with pre-set limits as to what time frames etc it could cover. The days of wide open West End Games style Star Wars RPG production, where they were able to invent tons of lore,  are far behind us.


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

Malkinban said:


> Maybe, but X-Wing is still selling well, so I doubt it would come down to losing the contract over no Star Wars products being produced.



I guess it depends how the license is written. If it's an overall license for tabletop games, then FFG will still have it. Could mean nobody can product Star Wars RPGs but then, who are choosing not to. That would suck.


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## dragoner (Feb 18, 2020)

> Eurazeo began searching for a potential buyer for Asmodée in early 2018, and announced by July 2018 that it was selling the company to another French private equity firm, PAI Partners at a price of about €1.2 billion.




Probably closing, or selling off subsidiary companies that don't meet the target profitability marks, in order to raise the portfolio/fund values.


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## Undrave (Feb 18, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> The license definitely would come with pre-set limits as to what time frames etc it could cover. The days of wide open West End Games style Star Wars RPG production, where they were able to invent tons of lore,  are far behind us.




Yeah but even the SAGA system had Old Republic stuff and the Yuuzhan Vong. I wonder if a Disney RPG would even have Ewoks... 

Most of Disney's auxiliary stuff has been pretty pedestrian and lacking in any sort of impactful stories, too afraid of upsetting the mighty canon of The Brand.


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

There's no current Marvel RPG despite Marvel currently being the biggest IP in the world. I hope that's not a sign that Disney isn't interested in licensing stuff for RPGs.


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## eyeheartawk (Feb 18, 2020)

Undrave said:


> Most of Disney's auxiliary stuff has been pretty pedestrian and lacking in any sort of impactful stories, too afraid of upsetting the mighty canon of The Brand.




Speaking of #Brands maybe Wendy's will pick up the RPG license for Star Wars? Let's embrace our corporate overlords and welcome the dystopic future of our own making.


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## eyeheartawk (Feb 18, 2020)

Morrus said:


> There's no current Marvel RPG despite Marvel currently being the biggest IP in the world. I hope that's not a sign that Disney isn't interested in licensing stuff for RPGs.




I remember seeing Cam Banks talk about this on G+ back when the announcement of Marvel Heroic ceasing publication came out to most everyone's surprise.

Basically Marvel doesn't understand why they make so little money in RPG licensing. They don't understand the size of the market and what is considered a good amount of money to be worth their time. It's not impossible to to imagine a future where a $100,000 RPG license that's valid for 5 or 10 years plus royalties isn't worth their time. Not when you're a giant multi-billion dollar entity and can find other, better more profitable things to have your licensing teams spend their time on.


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> I remember seeing Cam Banks talk about this on G+ back when the announcement of Marvel Heroic ceasing publication came out to most everyone's surprise.
> 
> Basically Marvel doesn't understand why they make so little money in RPG licensing. They don't understand the size of the market and what is considered a good amount of money to be worth their time. It's not impossible to to imagine a future where $100,000 RPG license that's valid for 5 or 10 years plus royalties isn't worth their time. Not when you're a giant multi-billion dollar entity and can find other, better more profitable things to have your licensing teams spend their time on.



Yeah. I imagine a lunchbox makes way more than an RPG.


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## Tyler Do'Urden (Feb 18, 2020)

Marc Radle said:


> It would be interesting to see if Paizo might try for the Star Wars licence. The owners are HUGE Star Wars fans and actually tried for it years ago. Heck, they could move it over to the Star Finder rules set ...




This was the first thing I thought as well; they'd be one of the few companies with the resources to do it, and it would be easy enough to build it on top of a modified Starfinder ruleset (preferably with a d20 to StarWarsFinder conversion appendix) - I'd buy that for a dollar. Or $50. Or $79.99 with sales tax.


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## Umbran (Feb 18, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Star Wars would get picked up (though it's an EXPENSIVE license).




As a property, yes.  But not FFG's game, in specific.  If this is true, that game is very probably going away.


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

Umbran said:


> As a property, yes.  But not FFG's game, in specific.  If this is true, that game is very probably going away.



We’re talking about the license, not how much it costs to play the game. Paizo could afford it, and maybe Modiohius.


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## eyeheartawk (Feb 18, 2020)

Morrus said:


> We’re talking about the license, not how much it costs to play the game. Paizo could afford it, and maybe Modiohius.




I have my doubts about the actual long-term fiscal health of Modiphius. Outside of some big Kickstarters I don't see their books selling much in the actual market. And given the scattershot approach to publishing anything (they have, what, a dozen lines in various stages of activity, plus mediocre board games.) I'm inclined to think they're not liquid enough to really be in the running for something like this. Unless running dragonmeet one day a year really is more profitable than I thought.


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## Umbran (Feb 18, 2020)

Morrus said:


> We’re talking about the license, not how much it costs to play the game.




I know.  I'm just noting, in the middle of that, the FFG's game design is going to disappear.  Someone else will get the license, and design a new system



> Paizo could afford it, and maybe Modiohius.




And WotC/Hasbro, though Hasbro's relationship with Lucasfilm/Disney is reportedly a bit strained at the moment, so I wouldn't expect them to do that.  But they do have a game already designed, leaving development cost absurdly low...


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## DruidsGrove (Feb 18, 2020)

And no one is surprised at all. Let's look at the facts. The moment Disney bought Star Wars, they lost ALL the old EU material. If you haven't noticed, Disney isn't pumping out new material constantly. I have a feeling all their Star Wars lines will start to take hits. L5R is more of a niche market, and may not have been selling as well as they hoped. Then there is Genesys, which has a very generic fantasy setting, and alright Cyberpunk setting, and coming up Keyforge. Add to that Runewars Miniatures was a complete flop, and Star Wars Destiny is toast, as well as losing Netrunner. I think FFG is starting to feel the hurt of years of things not selling as well as they hoped (Realms of Terrinoth, Final Hour, etc.), and their owners are trimming the fat.


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## Count_Zero (Feb 18, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> Basically Marvel doesn't understand why they make so little money in RPG licensing. They don't understand the size of the market and what is considered a good amount of money to be worth their time. It's not impossible to to imagine a future where a $100,000 RPG license that's valid for 5 or 10 years plus royalties isn't worth their time. Not when you're a giant multi-billion dollar entity and can find other, better more profitable things to have your licensing teams spend their time on.




I remember Marvel killing the Marvel Diceless RPG because it wasn't selling as well as D&D 3rd Edition (which was pretty new at the time) - though that may have been smoke and mirrors to cover the project being killed because it was launched under Bill Jemas' regime.


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## Stan Shinn (Feb 18, 2020)

I predict Fandom will pick up the license and do a Star Wars RPG using the Cortex RPG system they recently acquired. They would include D&D Beyond-style digital support with DRM content. I also predict it will be awesome!


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## Jon Stachon (Feb 18, 2020)

I've been playing Star Wars RPGs since 1993 (sorry, I'm old).  I kept playing, and still do, after West End Games lost the IP.  I will still support it if people want to play.  As far as IPs go with FFG, I kind of feel that they (FFG) doesn't look too long term.  Ergo, Warhammer 40K: Conquest.  That LCG was doing well and just as they got all the factions out it folded.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 18, 2020)

You have to remember Disney and Mattel broke (and now Hasbro is selling Disney's toys) because Mattel created "Ever After Hight", a potential rival franchise for its princesses. 

Paizo will want to keep working with its Starfinder, and Hasbro has noticed the best way to sell more toys is the movie blockbusters. If they can't produce a new d20 Star Wars then WotC will publish a remake of d20 Future or another sci-fi videogame adaptation. A d20 game set in the modern or future needs more playtesting and feedback. A remote-control drone with canons works more like a trap than a monster, or a vehicle could be used to kill an enemy, or a horde of enemies. In the first movie of Alien one xenomorph was enough to kill amost all the Nostrome crew but in the second movie dozens, maybe hundreds, were killed from other room using sentinel turrets. In "Cobra" Bridiggt Nielsen's character couldn't face the "night stalker" but hide and run away as in a survival horror, but Sylvester Stallone as a one-man-army could kill all the cult of the New Dawn. You could use a nPC and give an exosuit (Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare), a powered armor (Fallout 76) or a mecha (Titanfall) and he becomes too powerful to share the same Challenging Rating or XPs reward. Do you understand? A d20 version of Star Wars, Transformers, Gi.Joe or Marvel Superheroes needs a lot of playtesting to find the right balance of power with and without weapons and military technology.

If FFG can't make more money then I am afair it will be sold to another company, maybe Hasbro buys some "pieces" (for example L5R) but not all, and somebody will be got by others.


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## billd91 (Feb 18, 2020)

DruidsGrove said:


> And no one is surprised at all. Let's look at the facts. The moment Disney bought Star Wars, they lost ALL the old EU material. If you haven't noticed, Disney isn't pumping out new material constantly. I have a feeling all their Star Wars lines will start to take hits.




I doubt it. They're just rethinking their strategy. They decided to not go with the EU so they could tell the post-original trilogy stories they wanted to tell, not try to fit them into a bunch of stories they had no relationship with. That was a decision I endorse since the Yuuzhan Vong sucked. 

But as far as their Star Wars lines taking hits? The success of their new theme park sections and *The Mandalorian* suggest the market is still pretty strong. They're just feeling out all the right avenues for them to pursue.


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## Reynard (Feb 18, 2020)

Is it possible to find out whether FFG has the overall tabletop license or both board game and RPG licenses? That answer would go a long way toward getting an idea of whether we're likely to see a new SW RPG in the near-ish term. Also, do we have any idea how long FFG's Star Wars license has remaining?


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## Blacksad (Feb 18, 2020)

Interesting given that Asmodee recently became partner with GF9 for the french translation of D&D instead of BBE (they already do the Spanish translation through Edge), and obtained the translation rights for Call of Cthulhu (Edge again) 

Edge was also doing the translation of FFG products. So it might make more sense to focus on translation (and supplements for CoC, sadly there is no local products with D&D), instead of FFG's products (it seems dubious,  the market in Europe is small). We need a rpg journalist who'll ask Asmodee what are they up to.


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## Bravesteel25 (Feb 18, 2020)

Blacksad said:


> Interesting given that Asmodee recently became partner with GF9 for the french translation of D&D instead of BBE (they already do the Spanish translation through Edge), and obtained the translation rights for Call of Cthulhu (Edge again)
> 
> Edge was also doing the translation of FFG products. So it might make more sense to focus on translation (and supplements for CoC, sadly there is no local products with D&D), instead of FFG's products (it seems dubious,  the market in Europe is small). We need a rpg journalist who'll ask Asmodee what are they up to.




From a business perspective, it is a lot easier to back localization for an already extremely popular RPG then to continue support for a middling one.



Reynard said:


> Is it possible to find out whether FFG has the overall tabletop license or both board game and RPG licenses? That answer would go a long way toward getting an idea of whether we're likely to see a new SW RPG in the near-ish term. Also, do we have any idea how long FFG's Star Wars license has remaining?




I'm fairly positive that it is an overall tabletop games license. Part of the reason FFG could never release PDFs for the Star Wars RPG was because PDFs were considered digital and thus were under EA's purview.


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## Reynard (Feb 18, 2020)

Malkinban said:


> I'm fairly positive that it is an overall tabletop games license. Part of the reason FFG could never release PDFs for the Star Wars RPG was because PDFs were considered digital and thus were under EA's purview.



Which is one of my favorite examples of corporate culture Just Not Getting It.


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## imagineGod (Feb 18, 2020)

So the cat is finally out of the bag. 

When we were told of the layoffs at Fantasy Flight Games, we also heard "nothing to worry" they said. "We will hire freelance contractors" they said. 

Well, I guess role playing games are not profitable to parent company Asmodee, especially when compared to card games, even for the small hobby stores who sell way more card booster decks than RPG books.  

Plus, all the recent collections of Star Wars books like "Allies and Adversaries" or "Gadgets and Gear" should have been telltale signs that role playing games at Fantasy Flight Games were on death row.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 18, 2020)

The time travel and maybe the parallel worlds are canon in Star Wars, and the TTRPG could allow a open door for the return of the Expanded Universe. Why not allowing in DM Guild fans publishing their own version of the franchise? For example adding new ideas from the last years as digital immortality or mind uploading tech.

Disney has got more (now forgotten) sci-fi franchises to test new ideas in the screen, for example the sword of the swashbucklers and the alien legion. 

Hasbro and EA could agree something about digital content.


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## Bravesteel25 (Feb 18, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> The time travel and maybe the parallel worlds are canon in Star Wars, and the TTRPG could allow a open door for the return of the Expanded Universe. Why not allowing in DM Guild fans publishing their own version of the franchise? For example adding new ideas from the last years as digital immortality or mind uploading tech.
> 
> Disney has got more (now forgotten) sci-fi franchises to test new ideas in the screen, for example the sword of the swashbucklers and the alien legion.
> 
> Hasbro and EA could agree something about digital content.




That all has just as much a chance of happening as the EU being made canon again. It doesn't even matter if Hasbro and EA came to an understanding because Disney controls the license. They wouldn't allow any of that.


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Is it possible to find out whether FFG has the overall tabletop license or both board game and RPG licenses? That answer would go a long way toward getting an idea of whether we're likely to see a new SW RPG in the near-ish term. Also, do we have any idea how long FFG's Star Wars license has remaining?



Turns out Hasbro has board games. FFG has RPG and minis games. We don’t know the terms of FFG’s license, no.


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> The time travel and maybe the parallel worlds are canon in Star Wars, and the TTRPG could allow a open door for the return of the Expanded Universe. Why not allowing in DM Guild fans publishing their own version of the franchise? For example adding new ideas from the last years as digital immortality or mind uploading tech.
> 
> Disney has got more (now forgotten) sci-fi franchises to test new ideas in the screen, for example the sword of the swashbucklers and the alien legion.
> 
> Hasbro and EA could agree something about digital content.



Wait, why doesn’t Hasbro buy Disney?!?!


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## Reynard (Feb 18, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Turns out Hasbro has board games. FFG has RPG and minis games. We don’t know the terms of FFG’s license, no.



So, from a license perspective, does that make Imperial Assault a miniatures game? Seems like the li9ne could get pretty blurry.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 18, 2020)

We don't know the Disney's plans about buying other company (EA Games or Sony Pictures?). Hasbro doesn't want to be controlled, and even Mattel said no when Hasbro talked about a fusion. 

Maybe Hasbro will buy some Asmodee/FFG franchises when this doesn't work so well.


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

Reynard said:


> So, from a license perspective, does that make Imperial Assault a miniatures game? Seems like the li9ne could get pretty blurry.



I guess?


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## hutchback (Feb 18, 2020)

I don’t think the license is a simple split of board games vs miniature games. FFG produced a dice game, card game, two straight up board games (Rebellion and Outer Rim), and of course the RPG.


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## Morrus (Feb 18, 2020)

hutchback said:


> I don’t think the license is a simple split of board games vs miniature games. FFG produced a dice game, card game, two straight up board games (Rebellion and Outer Rim), and of course the RPG.



Might just not be exclusive. Not all licenses are exclusive licenses. I’m pretty sure I heard the Trek license isn’t.


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## billd91 (Feb 18, 2020)

imagineGod said:


> Well, I guess role playing games are not profitable to parent company Asmodee, especially when compared to card games, even for the small hobby stores who sell way more card booster decks than RPG books.




I wouldn't necessarily bet on it being the decision-makers at Asmodee since they, in turn, are owned by an equity capital/investment corporation - and they make their money by buying other companies, stripping them down of 'excess' liabilities, and selling them for a profit.

Think of what Bain and others did when they took over Toys R Us. Not only did they buy the company, they saddled it with the debt they took on to buy it in the first place, forcing it into bankruptcy which allowed them to hold off on any claims employees had to compensation or severance, and then retained the trademarks for lean and mean "store within a store" toy sections. So not only do they get to make profit selling toys with the overhead of a brick and mortar borne by a department store rather than themselves, they didn't have to pay any of the 20,000 odd employees they savagely dropped from the workforce. Eurazeo might not be that transparently predatory, but I think something similar is going on. They've turfed out a segment of their property's property (Asmodee and FFG, respectively) in order to improve the attractiveness of FFG for when they spin it off and give them a modest little profit.


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## eyeheartawk (Feb 18, 2020)

Reynard said:


> So, from a license perspective, does that make Imperial Assault a miniatures game? Seems like the li9ne could get pretty blurry.




Yes. Imperial Assault was from before they had a license that included boardgames (they do now). It's why Imperial Assault shipped with a "skirmish" mode; to be classified as a miniatures game.


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## doctorbadwolf (Feb 18, 2020)

That sucks for the people in that department and fans of the ffg games.

otoh, I can dream again of a return of wotc Star Wars.


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## DWChancellor (Feb 18, 2020)

I do wonder if part of the decision is the relative age of the FFG SW RPG (i.e. declining returns), strength of D&D, and a lack of immediate to mid-term returns. 

Perhaps the general retrenchment plan with the movies (if that is actually real) is showing up a little in their licensing space?

For my part I loved how the FFG SW dice worked, but felt the rest of the system was too big a change from my DM'ing habits.


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## univoxs (Feb 18, 2020)

I'll just continue playing the old WEG rules, blissfully unaware.


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## Morrus (Feb 19, 2020)

univoxs said:


> I'll just continue playing the old WEG rules, blissfully unaware.



Good talk.


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## Jacob Lewis (Feb 19, 2020)

A shame for the systems that still had potential life in them, but at least the Star Wars RPG was complete and (dare I say?) fully operational.


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## MerricB (Feb 19, 2020)

hutchback said:


> I don’t think the license is a simple split of board games vs miniature games. FFG produced a dice game, card game, two straight up board games (Rebellion and Outer Rim), and of course the RPG.




The basics are "it's complicated". 

Hasbro has (or had) the pure boardgame license. FFG had a lot of other tabletop licenses. However, FFG were able to produce a few FFG boardgames since they contained miniatures, and then Outer Rim (which doesn't have minis). How? It seems they have an agreement with Hasbro.

However, FFG can't sell these Star Wars boardgames on their website. They're there, but perpetually "out of stock". 

In addition, the licenses are also territory-dependent. Hans im Gluck has a Star Wars version of Carcassone, which can't be sold in the US. So that points to Hasbro having a US-exclusive Star Wars boardgame license, which intersects oddly with FFGs licences.

More discussion can be found here: FFG / Hasbro Star Wars License | Star Wars: Outer Rim

Cheers!


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## ddaley (Feb 19, 2020)

MerricB said:


> Star Wars version of Carcassone,




That sounds interesting... how do I get a copy of that


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## MerricB (Feb 19, 2020)

ddaley said:


> That sounds interesting... how do I get a copy of that




According to the Amazon Australia site... it'd be expensive for me!


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## Reynard (Feb 19, 2020)

I feel like it is potentially a good opportunity to Disney to have a looser, less crunchy system designed for Star Wars and then to leap onto the streamwagon. Star Wars could make for some great streaming play, could potentially tie into other media, and enjoy some pretty cool guest stars.


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## Morrus (Feb 19, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Star Wars could make for some great streaming play



It already does!


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## vpuigdoller (Feb 19, 2020)

Welp when I posted the link this morning I was hoping for someone to contradict it. This sad news. 
@Morrus I like your idea about Paizo picking Star Wars franchise up!! @Paizo make it happen!!


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## BadEye (Feb 19, 2020)

Stan Shinn said:


> I predict Fandom will pick up the license and do a Star Wars RPG using the Cortex RPG system they recently acquired. They would include D&D Beyond-style digital support with DRM content. I also predict it will be awesome!



Great idea... I'll get right on it.


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## DruidsGrove (Feb 19, 2020)

billd91 said:


> I doubt it. They're just rethinking their strategy. They decided to not go with the EU so they could tell the post-original trilogy stories they wanted to tell, not try to fit them into a bunch of stories they had no relationship with. That was a decision I endorse since the Yuuzhan Vong sucked.
> 
> But as far as their Star Wars lines taking hits? The success of their new theme park sections and *The Mandalorian* suggest the market is still pretty strong. They're just feeling out all the right avenues for them to pursue.




There is literally NOTHING coming out of Disney's SW lines, except another season of Clone Wars, and the Mandalorian. One has nothing new, the other very limited new. There are NO cartoons or movies coming, and a one show, since Obi-Wan is on hiatus. Yes, we can see the quality of the stories that has come out from Disney SW, and their success. Sucking or not, the Vong sold A LOT of product, and created years of story. 
The theme park is a disaster, there are numerous facts to back that up. So they have one thing, that isn't enough to create RPG products consistently. Let alone anything else.


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## ccs (Feb 19, 2020)

Malkinban said:


> Maybe, but X-Wing is still selling well, so I doubt it would come down to losing the contract over no Star Wars products being produced.




It might be that there are different licenses concerning SW RPGs, Board/Card Games, & Miniatures games.
So just because they're making X-Wing might not have anything at all to do with RPGs.


----------



## Wolfram stout (Feb 19, 2020)

DruidsGrove said:


> There is literally NOTHING coming out of Disney's SW lines, except another season of Clone Wars, and the Mandalorian. One has nothing new, the other very limited new. There are NO cartoons or movies coming, and a one show, since Obi-Wan is on hiatus. Yes, we can see the quality of the stories that has come out from Disney SW, and their success. Sucking or not, the Vong sold A LOT of product, and created years of story.
> The theme park is a disaster, there are numerous facts to back that up. So they have one thing, that isn't enough to create RPG products consistently. Let alone anything else.



obi-wan is still being made,the hiatus is not even interrupting the planned start date. The Cassian Andor series is still slated for production. I personally think we have some great Star Wars to look forward to seeing.


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## Professor Murder (Feb 19, 2020)

It's a damn shame. A company with clout and publishing heft, able to reliably put books into gaming stores.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 19, 2020)

If WotC makes a new d20 Star Wars Disney could create a new game-live show as Critical Role, without worrying about the canon.


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## Mournblade94 (Feb 19, 2020)

This is why I am very skeptical of supporting licenced RPG's.  Just as it gains momentum, it disappears.  The only Star Wars game I play is WEGS.  I played FFG for a bit but went back to WEGS Star Wars.  I won't touch a Marvel game, and I use FASERIP when I feel the need.  Every Marvel Game has puttered out that wasnt FASERIP.

Now, even though its not expensive licence I am really getting invested in Cubicle 7 Warhammer FRP.  This too seems to be fading.  I am skeptical they will fulfill the whole campaign they promised.  This keeps me from trying alot of new systems.  I have the ones that are tried and true.  By the time I learn a new system its out of print.

I have a descent money for my hobby budget but I am skeptical of buying new RPGs, or licensed RPGS.  But here I go giving Dune a shot like an idiot.


----------



## Weiley31 (Feb 19, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Ooooh! Now that idea excites me!
> 
> PAIZO DO IT!



5E Star Wars here we come!


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 19, 2020)

If a franchise or IP is very famous or popular you can find homebred versions, and now you do't need spend money to get lore/background/fluff if you can read the fandom-wikis from internet.

And it is worse when you aren't English-speaker or you would rather to buy in your own naive languange. The candence is lower. For example yesterday I bought the translanted version of Starfinder pact worlds and I hope to can buy Changeling 20 Anniversary Edition and D&D Xanathar Guide this week. Pathfinder 2 maybe the next month. I could buy "Dungeonscape" (D&D 3.5) but I didn't it because I am awaiting the translation by Devir Iberia and then it stopped, and I had to come back to my town where I couldn't buy ever the English version.

* A new SW by WotC sounds very nice but I have said a d20 game with modern technology needs a lot of work for the right balance of power. If you have played some Battle Royal or Counter-Strike videogame you know the difference when you have better or worse weapons than your enemy. (Do you remember the B.R.U.T.E in Fortnite?)  

* Is there any Starfinder version of Star Wars and Star Trecks races?


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## Cergorach (Feb 19, 2020)

Why is everyone acting surprised? Look at the last 20 years of FFG products, especially (but not only) in their RPG section. They'll kill any license/line that they don't think performs well, be it SW, be it L5R, etc. While the new owners of Asmodee might have given some divisions a nudge, for FFG "all of this has happened before. and all of this will happen again", just to use their Battlestar Gallactica license... ;-)

Also keep in mind that WotC also let their SW licenses lapse and it took a while before FFG picked it up. I have most (if not all) WotC SW books and never started on the FFG line. Imho not every change is an improvement, neither are new products necessarily. The old WEG had some really cool stuff, but it was pretty dated by the time WotC picked it up. I prefer to pick and choose with fluff with a system I prefer.


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## JeffB (Feb 19, 2020)

Thanks to Eiger and KK , I really don't care about anything new when it comes to the Disney SW franchise. They ruined everything they touch (buy out). They have been having big problems selling their normal merch over the past several years so why would the RPG be any  different? Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they just sat on the RPG license for awhile. Other than The Mandalorian- they haven't been "nailing it" with the fan-base. 

I feel bad for FFG- they produced a really innovative system for SW with great playability and the system fit the genre/franchise so well, unlike some others :coughD20cough:  I hope the RPG folks find work swiftly.


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## Undrave (Feb 19, 2020)

DruidsGrove said:


> The theme park is a disaster, there are numerous facts to back that up.




I think you should re-evaluate the theme park situation after the opening of Rise of the Resistance. It's been universally acclaimed and has appeal beyond the Star Wars fans its aimed at, considering how technologically impressive it is. 

The issues with Galaxy's Edge had way more to do with peculiarities of the theme park market than they did with Star Wars itself. Need I remind you that Animal Kingdom was viewed as a half-day park until they opened Pandora? A land themed after a franchise that, for all its monetary success, has basically zero fandom and pop culture impact? 

Galaxy's Edge basically opened un-finished.


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## griffon8 (Feb 19, 2020)

I wonder if this could lead to a reopening of the DragonStar line. I still miss it.


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## Morrus (Feb 19, 2020)

griffon8 said:


> I wonder if this could lead to a reopening of the DragonStar line.



How do you figure? They're closing down RPG production, not opening it up!


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## griffon8 (Feb 19, 2020)

Morrus said:


> How do you figure? They're closing down RPG production, not opening it up!



Right, but if that makes the DragonStar line available for someone else to buy it at less than the exorbitant price FFG had reportedly been asking for it, maybe it could see the light of day again.


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## Reynard (Feb 19, 2020)

griffon8 said:


> Right, but if that makes the DragonStar line available for someone else to buy it at less than the exorbitant price FFG had reportedly been asking for it, maybe it could see the light of day again.



Why would anyone buy it? There's nothing in it you can't do yourself and it's not like the setting has any cache.

Also -- wow do people around here HATE Star Wars.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 19, 2020)

I start to worry because Asmodee is the owner of Edge Enternaiment, the Spanish publisher who is translating D&D (Xanathar Guide should be on the stores this Friday 21st).

I don't worry about the end of the SW RPG because I am not interested in its new game system. What about Legend of the Five Rings. It is too famous to fall in the oblivion. If FFG stops the production it could be sold to other company, WotC, Onyx Path/White Wolf or Chaosium. But I am sorry for players who after buying the books have to learn a new system in the next edition.

* Somebody doesn't like the new SW titles because his opinion the changes haven't been in the right path. 

* Disney could dare to buy some videogame studio and also a toy company to produce its own board games and action figures.


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## Mournblade94 (Feb 19, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Reynard said:
> 
> 
> > Also -- wow do people around here HATE Star Wars.



I think they probably just don't like the ST era.  That was pretty weak.  But the rest of what DIsney has done I think is good.


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## Mournblade94 (Feb 19, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I start to worry because Asmodee is the owner of Edge Enternaiment, the Spanish publisher who is translating D&D (Xanathar Guide should be on the stores this Friday 21st).
> 
> I don't worry about the end of the SW RPG because I am not interested in its new game system. What about Legend of the Five Rings. It is too famous to fall in the oblivion. If FFG stops the production it could be sold to other company, WotC, Onyx Path/White Wolf or Chaosium. But I am sorry for players who after buying the books have to learn a new system in the next edition.
> 
> ...



DIsney shut down its gaming division and sold all of its video game assetts.  They are not going to do video games.  The investors meetings talked about that as well.


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## Beleriphon (Feb 19, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Also -- wow do people around here HATE Star Wars.




I once read an article that one of the stipulations of Star Wars fandom is that you actually hate it.


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## Undrave (Feb 19, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Also -- wow do people around here HATE Star Wars.




I'm pretty indifferent to Star Wars on the whole.

I'm mostly against brand stagnation in general. For all it's craziness and wankery, the EU was at least a place to see people be creative and crazy. I don't think a carefully controlled and curated Brand like Disney Star Wars is a good environment for a proper RPG.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 19, 2020)

The Expd Univ should be allowed in the TTRPG because here we have to be totally free to break the canon and create our own mash-up and other crazy ideas. For example a time-traveler kills Anakin Skywalker when he was a child, Palpatine was killed by Mace Windu, Trade Federation won the clone wars and lord Dooku becomes the supreme ruler, but then a new faction appears, a galactic empire from other timeline where Amidalia was killed by Palpatine to cause Darth Vaderr's rage and this killed him, falling in the Dark Side. DV created a clone of Amidali (really a robotic body with her brain and a organic womb to be mother...). 

The TTRPG are like toys, to create your own stories without worring about what is canon or not. 

* Maybe WotC talked with Disney about the SW RPG, with a better offert, but the rest of Asmodee/FFG still are nice.  

* Really Disney's Planet of the Threasure was so bad? where was the failure?


----------



## Nilbog (Feb 19, 2020)

I really like Star Wars, and I think that the Disney films get a lot of undue grief, the new films for me were never going to match the original trilogy, but then i had the blessing of youth, now I'm a cynical old man  

Its really sad, if true, that FFG won't be be making the games anymore, firstly for the staff involved, losing your livelihood is a horrid experience, and i hope they find employment soon.  Secondly, while the FFG wasn't a good fit for my gaming group, they were incredibly well produced books, and I got a lot of useful fluff for them, I thought I'd be keen to see a new Star Wars system, but reading about the complexity of licencing I can't imagine any company being able to pick it up  

its a sad day when there is no active official Star Wars RPG


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 19, 2020)

You haven't lost SW RPG forever. If you want background you only have to see the fandom-wiki and if you want crunch you can recycle other tiles, for example Starfinder. 

If WotC republishes SW then projects about d20 Future will be frozen for a time. (but at least could allow the alien PC races in the SRD). It would be strange a new d20 SW without previous playtesting when they know the feedback is very important.

Do you worry about the future of L5R? maybe it only needs a manga adaptation and later an anime serie.


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## eyeheartawk (Feb 19, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> You haven't lost SW RPG forever. If you want background you only have to see the fandom-wiki and if you want crunch you can recycle other tiles, for example Starfinder.
> 
> If WotC republishes SW then projects about d20 Future will be frozen for a time. (but at least could allow the alien PC races in the SRD). It would be strange a new d20 SW without previous playtesting when they know the feedback is very important.
> 
> Do you worry about the future of L5R? maybe it only needs a manga adaptation and later an anime serie.




Personally, I could live without another D20 Star Wars game. We already had three (D20, Revised and Saga). 

As for L5R, speaking as somebody who plays it and enjoys the setting, I see this one gathering dust for awhile. It's a small, niche audience and it's not the easiest game to get into. The L5R RPG isn't going to keep anyone's lights on. As I understand it AEG basically shoved the L5R RPG rights at FFG for nothing, saying "here", when FFG was really only interested in the card game and board game rights. Only after the card game proved popular did they even bother starting production on the RPG. The fact that AEG was not interested in it by itself should underscore that fact.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Feb 19, 2020)

No RPG has an expiration date.

Just because any game or any edition of a game ceases publication doesn't mean it will never again be playable - just no longer supported.  People will have to... USE their imaginations to come up with material to support OOP games...

I mean, I like FFG's SW system even if I think it's hardly the best system for Star Wars.  But news that they may cease publication of it and all related RPG's for whatever reason...  Sad, _but that's the business_.  Once was a time in the late '90's I had largely lost hope of seeing D&D ever published again.  I've always been all about D&D and was saddened by that idea, but was secure in the knowledge that at least all the D&D material I'd bought up to that point was still viable (if not slightly more _valuable _due to being in decreasing supply from then on) and that I and others would continue to create material compatible with various D&D editions and continue to play it - whether the game itself was in print or not.

Not all games succeed forever; not all companies succeed forever.  Frankly, even if they didn't use it for the SW IP, I think companies would be foolish to not swarm all over acquiring that system to use for a generic substitute setting, or other settings and genres.


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## prabe (Feb 19, 2020)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> No RPG has an expiration date.
> 
> Just because any game or any edition of a game ceases publication doesn't mean it will never again be playable - just no longer supported.  People will have to... USE their imaginations to come up with material to support OOP games...
> 
> ...




I don't disagree with any of this--not at all--but I think it's easier to get other people into playing a new game if they can go to their FLGS and pick up a copy. It's the biggest advantage of playing a game that's in print, IMO.


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## aramis erak (Feb 19, 2020)

Malkinban said:


> It would certainly be a shame to have an era with no Star Wars RPG.




I strongly suspect Mongoose will try for it again.


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## aramis erak (Feb 19, 2020)

Umbran said:


> I know.  I'm just noting, in the middle of that, the FFG's game design is going to disappear.  Someone else will get the license, and design a new system



Maybe, maybe not. All the copyrights are Disney's, not FFGs. It's quite possible that a licensee could ask for permission to use the FFG game, and make a new edition thereof.

While we've not seen it often, we know Disney let FFG reprint WEG's initial 2 books.



Stan Shinn said:


> I predict Fandom will pick up the license and do a Star Wars RPG using the Cortex RPG system they recently acquired. They would include D&D Beyond-style digital support with DRM content. I also predict it will be awesome!



FFG was very clear that Disney would NOT let them do electronic formats other than for playtest.



LuisCarlos17f said:


> Hasbro and EA could agree something about digital content.



EA is so paranoid a corporate culture that they require online license validation for every launch of a game.  I doubt they'd be willing to risk their license that way. And if they did, whatever solution they insisted would be used would (1) go through them, (2) have an ongoing cost, (3) require online validation every launch.


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## Clansmansix (Feb 19, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Last I heard on the SW license - and this was years ago - was that it was in the region of a $100K advance on royalties. That was all through the rumour-milll though. If that's the case, not many RPG companies could do it -- who's had a big Kickstarter in the last couple of years? Or, if all else is lost, Modiphius only has 7,942,274 licenses right now!



I would totally be down for a Star Wars game using Modiphius' 2d20 rules-set. Seems a perfect fit to me!


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## aramis erak (Feb 19, 2020)

One last thought from me on this today:

Disney could just decide to take and put the extant games, all of which they own the copyrights on, and make them available via POD-only. No development cost, very little layout cost. Be a total **** move, but cancelling the MHRP license was, too.

MHRP was and is an excellent game. 

I also somehow doubt Cam would be onboard with working with Disney... once bitten, twice shy.


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## Sunsword (Feb 19, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Star Wars would get picked up (though it's an EXPENSIVE license). L5R will be interesting. Not sure about Genesys.




Maybe Modiphius will make a 2d20 Star Wars?


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## Sunsword (Feb 19, 2020)

billd91 said:


> But if someone does pick it up, it will probably be, yet again, another new rule system. All because some equity capital investment company could strip it (or more accurately Asmodee) in an effort to boost its apparent value and eventually sell it off for a profit. Hey, no matter that people lost their jobs - some investor has money to make based on the value those unemployed people built up.




Sadly, that's the way the SW license goes. Nothing preventing anyone from play FFG Star Wars still, just like people play WEG SW and D20 SW.


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## Sunsword (Feb 19, 2020)

Weiley31 said:


> 5E Star Wars here we come!









						Star Wars 5e
					






					sw5e.com


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## Sunsword (Feb 19, 2020)

Marc Radle said:


> It would be interesting to see if Paizo might try for the Star Wars licence. The owners are HUGE Star Wars fans and actually tried for it years ago. Heck, they could move it over to the Star Finder rules set ...




If I remember right, Lisa Stevens led the development of WotC's 1st Edition of the Star Wars RPG. That being said, the 1st Edition was just D&D in space.


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## Undrave (Feb 19, 2020)

Sunsword said:


> If I remember right, Lisa Stevens led the development of WotC's 1st Edition of the Star Wars RPG. That being said, the 1st Edition was just D&D in space.




So... Spelljammers??


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## billd91 (Feb 19, 2020)

Undrave said:


> So... Spelljammers??




No, it definitely felt Star Warsish in a way that SpellJammer never did. It made use of the d20 chassis but had a number of variations from the D&D standards. For one, it made use of the Vitality point/Wound point differential and Jedi spent vitality to power many of their Force powers (which were handled like skills). But in general, it was class-based so Jedi Guardian, Jedi Counselor, Scoundrel, Soldier, Noble, etc...


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## ddaley (Feb 19, 2020)

Sunsword said:


> Star Wars 5e
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I am definitely bookmarking that... that looks great.  Are there any modules available for it? I am not a big Star Wars fan, but my kids are.  Wasn't crazy about the FFG Star Wars system.


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## Sunsword (Feb 19, 2020)

ddaley said:


> I am definitely bookmarking that... that looks great.  Are there any modules available for it? I am not a big Star Wars fan, but my kids are.  Wasn't crazy about the FFG Star Wars system.




I don't think so.


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## Sunsword (Feb 19, 2020)

Undrave said:


> So... Spelljammers??




I wish. There just wasn't a lot of innovation, unlike say Star Wars Saga Edition. It wasn't a very ambitious adaptation and maybe that was what the client wanted.

In fact, I wonder if having had a past experience with Star Wars, would that make Paizo more or less likely to pursue the license?


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Feb 19, 2020)

Malkinban said:


> Good. Release your anger.




Let the anger flow through us and always stop using force lightning when it's reflected back at you.


----------



## Bacon Bits (Feb 19, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Also -- wow do people around here HATE Star Wars.




I don't hate Star Wars. I really like SW. I have been rather disappointed by the main series, though. The stories Lucas (via the prequel trilogy) and Disney (via the sequel trilogy) have chosen to tell aren't very interesting or aren't told particularly well, in my opinion. I really like the Star Wars universe, but the movies have problems with writing and direction. But, I mean, I feel the same way about a lot of franchises. I only like the first two Predator movies. Same with Alien. I only like the first two Rocky movies, and find the rest are too derivative. I liked LotR but thought that The Hobbit movies were pretty bad in spite of good casting. Very, very few movie series hold up. It's a bit like the Peter Principle: a new movie is produced until one loses too much money.

The problem I have with SW as an RPG is that the thing that makes SW really compelling -- Jedi -- is both difficult to work into a credible narrative because of the in-universe political situations, and difficult to balance between characters due to the utility of the Force (Sense, Alter, and Control are universal and highly potent). So you feel like you have to make Jedi rare and powerful... but then not everyone can be a Jedi or you spoil the tone of the game.

In the end, I'd rather play something like Savage Worlds The Last Parsec for my SW fix. Then I don't feel so bad when the magical space wizard-knights with laser swords aren't significantly more useful in every situation than the droid or the smuggler pilot, and you don't have to nerf the wizard-knight or their sword at all from the fiction's continuity.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 19, 2020)

WotC has plans for its own sci-fi franchise, d20 Future, Gamma World and maybe some Hasbro toys. This "d20 Future" will arrive after Spelljammer because this is being planned as an intermediate step. 

WotC is the best bidder for the licence, but it is too soon for its plans for a d20 sci-fi. And SW is a franchise too expensive for the rest of publishing houses. Maybe Disney could allow licences for TTRPG of other "useless" and forgotten franchises (and expendables, then easier to test some changes).

If Paizo had got the licence then the projects for Starfinder would be slower or even stopped. No, they would rather to have got total creative freedom.

* I have tought about WotC buying L5R to create a mash-up and adding more things, but I think WotC would rather to start from zero creating a new world as Kara-Tur.


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Feb 19, 2020)

Okay WotC, get it back and do a Saga Second Edition.


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## Bacon Bits (Feb 19, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> WotC has plans for its own sci-fi franchise, d20 Future, Gamma World and maybe some Hasbro toys. This "d20 Future" will arrive after Spelljammer because this is being planned as an intermediate step.
> 
> WotC is the best bidder for the licence, but it is too soon for its plans for a d20 sci-fi.




Nah, I think a d20 or D&D style system with leveling and linear increasing hit points is exactly the wrong kind of game system for something set in a sci-fi or even modern setting. The last thing I want is a setting with guns or higher tech is a system where you gain levels that grant you extra health reserve (no matter what you call it) and that health reserve makes you so hard to kill that you're not afraid of taking a shotgun to the face or a heavy blaster to the chest.

I can suspend disbelief that it works with melee weapons or simple ranged weapons and even magical blasts, especially when it's become an established trope. However, there's just no believable narrative to a system where protagonists are basically bulletproof even when they're stark naked.

I _don't_ want a Star Wars RPG to ever feel like D&D in Space, even if it's D&D in Space with Space Wizards. I also don't want a Call of Cthulu RPG to feel like D&D in Arkham, MA. I don't think D&D's class system, skill system, or advancement system is a useful fit for either of those two types of games. I think it's a disservice to the tone of both games.


----------



## Weiley31 (Feb 19, 2020)

Undrave said:


> So... Spelljammers??



With Ewoks.


----------



## Emirikol Prime (Feb 19, 2020)

DruidsGrove said:


> There is literally NOTHING coming out of Disney's SW lines, except another season of Clone Wars, and the Mandalorian. One has nothing new, the other very limited new. There are NO cartoons or movies coming, and a one show, since Obi-Wan is on hiatus. Yes, we can see the quality of the stories that has come out from Disney SW, and their success. Sucking or not, the Vong sold A LOT of product, and created years of story.
> The theme park is a disaster, there are numerous facts to back that up. So they have one thing, that isn't enough to create RPG products consistently. Let alone anything else.



I get it you hate SW now but factually the theme parks are now killing it.


----------



## JeffB (Feb 20, 2020)

Bacon Bits said:


> I don't hate Star Wars. I really like SW. I have been rather disappointed by the main series, though. The stories Lucas (via the prequel trilogy) and Disney (via the sequel trilogy) have chosen to tell aren't very interesting or aren't told particularly well, in my opinion. I really like the Star Wars universe, but the movies have problems with writing and direction. But, I mean, I feel the same way about a lot of franchises. I only like the first two Predator movies. Same with Alien. I only like the first two Rocky movies, and find the rest are too derivative. I liked LotR but thought that The Hobbit movies were pretty bad in spite of good casting.




100%


----------



## Retreater (Feb 20, 2020)

I've long considered myself a Star Wars fan until I realized that I liked two movies (ANH and ESB) and begrudgingly accepted a third (RotJ). The prequels were bad and the Disney SW has been uneven. I've had no interest in the Clone Wars. So I've had to reassess my feelings for the franchise. 
As far as the game, I haven't been a big fan of the FFG system, its strange dice, and its odd resolution mechanic. It just doesn't fit my style. I do know many who love it, though, so I'm sad and see it end on one side. The other is that I'm hopeful someone can make "a normal game" out of it instead of this weird storytelling GM Fiat system. (Even after running a campaign, I still don't get it.)


----------



## Jacob Lewis (Feb 20, 2020)

I will always be playing their games, running their RPGs, and decorating my office with their boxed goods.

Also, I have as much use for another d20 system as I do with a Palapatine appearance in another pointless trilogy.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 20, 2020)

Weiley31 said:


> With Ewoks.




Mythu'nn folk (from Savage Coast Mostrous Compedium.









---

Sci-fi shooters with leveling up? We have Starfinder but also the videogames Borderlands or Mass Effect. 

And today you are going to find more dark fantasy works with Lovecraft's myths, because now it is public domain. And a Chulthu d20 hasn't to be bad if it something with enough style, as Ravenloft and its gothic horror. But I understand you, Call of Chulthu and D&D are gameplay totally different. That is more about investigation and this is more about kick in the door and killing monsters. 

To allow a easier adaptation from other systems for d20 my house rules were to add two abilities scores: acuity (astuteness + perception) and spirit (courage, but also faith, hope, karma/fate/luck/divine grace/guardian angel) and two different pools of leveling up. One would be the classic power level and the other the knownledge level. If we use as example a MMO if a player come back to lowest level region and it is nerfed then the power level would change but not the knownledge level (all learnt tricks, as crafting recipes, fishing and hunting skills, languanges...).


----------



## Sketchpad (Feb 20, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> WotC has plans for its own sci-fi franchise, d20 Future, Gamma World and maybe some Hasbro toys. This "d20 Future" will arrive after Spelljammer because this is being planned as an intermediate step.
> 
> WotC is the best bidder for the licence, but it is too soon for its plans for a d20 sci-fi. And SW is a franchise too expensive for the rest of publishing houses. Maybe Disney could allow licences for TTRPG of other "useless" and forgotten franchises (and expendables, then easier to test some changes).
> 
> ...




Do you have a source for info on d20 Future and Gamma World? I'd love to find out more.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 20, 2020)

I have no sources at all, only I use the pure logic. If you are Hasbro/WotC you should have plans for future no-medieval fantasy TTRPGs, maybe adaptation of other franchises, G.I.Joe and Transformers, for example. Hasbro knows the best advertising to sell more toys are the media, movies and cartoons but if paying royalties for lincenses is too expensive, then better you create your own multimedia franchises, sometimes starting from zero. You can bet WotC CEOs would love a d20 superheroes but this system isn't ready yet. And Muntant & Mastermind isn't compatible with D&D. Think about that. If Hasbro has got agremeents with Blizzard or Epic Games... why not a d20 Overwatch or a d20 Fortnite: Save the world? Let's use psychology and try to imagine how is the CEOs' minds to think about future market strategies.

After Spelljammer the next step should be Gamma World because it a setting with high-tech but where usually you would rather to fight hand-to-hand to save ammo for the hardest enemies, like spellcasters with Vacian system. My suspects is really the videogame studios are who are designing the next d20 Future. If it works they could buy forgotten videogame franchises. 

Other theory (by me) is they want to create a d20 Mass Battles, for miniature wargame, but also for some Real-Time-Strategy videogame, maybe set in Birthright. And a open door for musou games (one-man-army against troops). 

* Legend of five Rings will not be sold to WotC because you can guess this would change the lore too much, adding new PC races and mixing with elements from Korea and China. And after Kara-Tur maybe WotC would rather to start his own version of Wuxia fantasy. I suposse if Asmodee goes bad, then it would be sold to a publisher with experencie in card and TT games. 

If Hasbro tried to buy or merge with Mattel, maybe one with Asmodde/FGG is possible if now the business doesn't go too right. It wouldn't be the first time Hasbro has bought other companies of board games. And until now Asmodee was the second best tabletop games after Hasbro.


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## atanakar (Feb 20, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I have no sources at all, only I use the pure logic. If you are Hasbro/WotC you should have plans for future no-medieval fantasy TTRPGs, maybe adaptation of other franchises, G.I.Joe and Transformers, for example. Hasbro knows the best advertising to sell more toys are the media, movies and cartoons but if paying royalties for lincenses is too expensive, then better you create your own multimedia franchises, sometimes starting from zero. You can bet WotC CEOs would love a d20 superheroes but this system isn't ready yet. And Muntant & Mastermind isn't compatible with D&D. Think about that. If Hasbro has got agremeents with Blizzard or Epic Games... why not a d20 Overwatch or a d20 Fortnite: Save the world? Let's use psychology and try to imagine how is the CEOs' minds to think about future market strategies.
> 
> After Spelljammer the next step should be Gamma World because it a setting with high-tech but where usually you would rather to fight hand-to-hand to save ammo for the hardest enemies, like spellcasters with Vacian system. My suspects is really the videogame studios are who are designing the next d20 Future. If it works they could buy forgotten videogame franchises.
> 
> ...




You can forget Gamma World and any other old IPs. WoTC as already stated that the new future/sci-fi game will not be based on an old IP. Having said that, do they consider Star Wars to be one of *their* «old IPs»? They never owned it, just payed for the license.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 20, 2020)

But some ideas from d20 Future (Star*Drive/Star Frontiers) could be recycled and reused in Spelljammer, for example the races. It wouldn't be the first time. At least some alien races should be in the SRD, for example the fraals and the mechalus. 

I notice sci-fi gets old very bad. Today new generations miss things from current age, the mobiles, for example, in the old productions. Since I myself bought my Eclipse Phase RPG I miss digital immortality and mind uploading in the rest of sci-fi games. Even the cyberpunk is now a old-fashion wave. I mean remake of old sci-fi is riskier and maybe they would rather to start new IPs. 

WotC doesn't need to pay too much for a famous licence when it can get adaptation of popular but not too much franchises, for example videogames. Here they can try new ideas, without the sacred cows of D&D. Other companies would allow TTRPG adaptations as advertising. I have mentioned in some previous post Fortnite and Overwatch. 

And if WotC allows a SRD for d20 Future maybe some 3PP could recover fiction from the pulp age because they are becoming public domain now. WotC has to create a sci-fi to become really popular, and my intuition tells me we could find as "guest artists" or "expy" elements from other Hasbro franchises, for example the famous transformers, now its most popular franchise.


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## Sketchpad (Feb 21, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I have no sources at all, only I use the pure logic. If you are Hasbro/WotC you should have plans for future no-medieval fantasy TTRPGs, maybe adaptation of other franchises, G.I.Joe and Transformers, for example. Hasbro knows the best advertising to sell more toys are the media, movies and cartoons but if paying royalties for lincenses is too expensive, then better you create your own multimedia franchises, sometimes starting from zero. You can bet WotC CEOs would love a d20 superheroes but this system isn't ready yet. And Muntant & Mastermind isn't compatible with D&D. Think about that. If Hasbro has got agremeents with Blizzard or Epic Games... why not a d20 Overwatch or a d20 Fortnite: Save the world? Let's use psychology and try to imagine how is the CEOs' minds to think about future market strategies.
> 
> After Spelljammer the next step should be Gamma World because it a setting with high-tech but where usually you would rather to fight hand-to-hand to save ammo for the hardest enemies, like spellcasters with Vacian system. My suspects is really the videogame studios are who are designing the next d20 Future. If it works they could buy forgotten videogame franchises.




So it's speculation on your part. Honestly, I've been asking fairly regularly since 5th ed started for both Gamma World and Star Frontiers to return. We can speculate all day, but unless WotC decides to release some further books beyond D&D, the reality is we're looking to 3rd party to do anything remotely like what you're talking about.
As for Star Wars, I'm sure someone else will pick it up down the line. Heck, who knows, maybe Disney itself will release the next version of the game. If I could choose, I would really like to see a return of the d6 version of the game with new official material.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 21, 2020)

Played a one shot if WEG Star Wars a few weeks ago.





Picked them up for a $1 back in 2004, postage was $8.

The SWSE stuff I bought at the time. Those books are pricy.





Fan made character sheets from REUP.





Close up character sheet.


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## Bravesteel25 (Feb 21, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Played a one shot if WEG Star Wars a few weeks ago.
> 
> View attachment 118586
> 
> ...




Nice books! But, uh, what’s that have to do with the discussion? Did I miss something?


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## Zardnaar (Feb 21, 2020)

Malkinban said:


> Nice books! But, uh, what’s that have to do with the discussion? Did I miss something?




Doesnt matter if the games not supported anymore as long as you can find players.

There's been an active uptick in fan made mods and material for Star Wars games. Some of them are HD remake mods and entire core rulebooks.

I never got into FFG SW due to gimmick dice and had 5 previous editions of the RPG to play. 6 if you count 2E revised D6.


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## Bravesteel25 (Feb 21, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Doesnt matter if the games not supported anymore as long as you can find players.
> 
> There's been an active uptick in fan made mods and material for Star Wars games. Some of them are HR remake mods and entire core rulebooks.
> 
> I never got into FFG SW due to gimmick dice and had 5 previous editions of the RPG to play. 6 if you count 2E revised D6.




Ah, gotcha. I think it can be really different from area to area. In my area people won’t even consider playing or investing in a game if it isn’t available at an LGS.


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## KatherineWhite (Feb 21, 2020)

I also think that if it's the overall license for tablet games, FFG will still have it


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## Ravenbrook (Feb 21, 2020)

At first LotR, now SW. It looks like RPG companies are better off using their own proprietary settings or settings/themes that are in the public domain (e.g. Sherlock Holmes, most Cthulhu Mythos stuff).


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 21, 2020)

Maybe in the past a famous franchise was a good hook, but today with internet things have changed. Today if you are a player and want more fluff/lore/background you don't need spending money when you only have to read the fandom wikis about videogames, books or teleseries. And if you want crunch you will want buy the sourcebooks of the most popular games. 

And if you create a new franchise from zero your creative freedom is total, and even you could make money with a future adaptation for some multimedia project, for example videogames, miniatures, comics or novels.


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## Mournblade94 (Feb 21, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I have no sources at all, only I use the pure logic. If you are Hasbro/WotC you should have plans for future no-medieval fantasy TTRPGs, maybe adaptation of other franchises, G.I.Joe and Transformers, for example. Hasbro knows the best advertising to sell more toys are the media, movies and cartoons but if paying royalties for lincenses is too expensive, then better you create your own multimedia franchises, sometimes starting from zero. You can bet WotC CEOs would love a d20 superheroes but this system isn't ready yet. And Muntant & Mastermind isn't compatible with D&D. Think about that. If Hasbro has got agremeents with Blizzard or Epic Games... why not a d20 Overwatch or a d20 Fortnite: Save the world? Let's use psychology and try to imagine how is the CEOs' minds to think about future market strategies.
> 
> After Spelljammer the next step should be Gamma World because it a setting with high-tech but where usually you would rather to fight hand-to-hand to save ammo for the hardest enemies, like spellcasters with Vacian system. My suspects is really the videogame studios are who are designing the next d20 Future. If it works they could buy forgotten videogame franchises.
> 
> ...



Before 5e, I spent alot of time reading Hasbro quarterly reports.  I still do.  D&D is mentioned NOW.  It was not at all mentioned until it became a streaming sensation.  RPG money is insignigicant to these executives.  Dungeons and Dragons the premier roleplaying game was barely ever mentioned by Hasbro, and it only is now, rarely, because it is more mainstream.  Dungeons and Dragons though is mentioned as a BRAND and not a game.  

I don't think any one of these companies outside of WOTC want to dedicate resources to RPGs.  I don't think Hasbro wants to allocate WOTC resources to a TTRPG that is not Dungeons and Dragons.  The money most table top games bring in is not worth it for the big companies.  Even a d20 fortnight.  The return would be too low.  The assumption is being made that the kids playing FOrtnight are going to instead sit around a table and play it as an RPG.  I don't think they will.  

Disney as a company probably is not worried about an RPG license wavering.


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## Acolyte of Zothique (Feb 21, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Doesnt matter if the games not supported anymore as long as you can find players.
> 
> There's been an active uptick in fan made mods and material for Star Wars games. Some of them are HD remake mods and entire core rulebooks.
> 
> I never got into FFG SW due to gimmick dice and had 5 previous editions of the RPG to play. 6 if you count 2E revised D6.



WEG d6 2nd Edition Revised (the one with the Millennium Falcon on the cover) was THE Star Wars RPG - I played in and ran that game for years and still have many books for it. Nothing else came close and I played WEG 1st Ed, 2nd Ed, WotC D20, D20 Revised and Saga.  Some of the most memorable roleplaying ever came from that game - a stone cold classic.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Feb 21, 2020)

Hasbro CEOs wouldn't worry about D&D and other TTRPGs but WotC should have got other point of view. Hasbro knows the power of the brands to sell more, and they know the future is linked to the media production, not only streaming services but also videogames. 

Hasbro should notice the TTRPGs are the right product for teenages who don't play with toys anymore, and where brother and sisters can play together, with the parents or other members of the family. Maybe they have tought for TTRPGs something like the Magic:tG cards with a number code to get the digital version in Magic Arena, and this code would be sold with miniatures or sourcebooks. (Yes, it is speculation by me but you should open your minds about somebody to be possible). Maybe its plans aren't for the paper printed version but more about digital adaptations, the videogame industry. Why do you think they are working is many coming soon titles? The money is there now, and in the streaming media services.

You could bet there is a open door for a d20 system adapted to the high-tech age, to publish its own IPs or to be ready for a future adaptation. If firearms and modern tech change radically the gameplay in the d20 system, they are working about that, maybe using computers for game simulations to test and try to find the right power balance. They would dare to publish a spin-off of Ravenloft based in the pulp age (1930's) (because it is the easiest way to be adapted to action-live), or a space fantasy with a retrofuturist look.


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## ddaley (Feb 21, 2020)

Sketchpad said:


> So it's speculation on your part. Honestly, I've been asking fairly regularly since 5th ed started for both Gamma World and Star Frontiers to return




Ooooh... Star Frontiers would be great (I am unfamiliar with Gamma World, so no opinion on that one).  I still have all of my old Star Frontiers stuff.  I always liked Star Frontiers, though my group at the time wasn't as interested.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Mar 9, 2020)

I found this new little time ago.









						Asmodee welcomes 'brand partnerships' as it opens its IP catalogue for licensing - Business News - MCV/DEVELOP
					

"This is a fantastic opportunity for developers, publishers and of course, Asmodee Entertainment to enter into many new licensing partnerships" - MCV/DEVELOP




					www.mcvuk.com
				




*Asmodee welcomes ‘brand partnerships’ as it opens its IP catalogue for licensing*

Asmodee has announced it is opening up its catalogue of intellectual properties to partner with other companies “in the *interactive* games market”. 

---

If the is a new edition of Gamma World the lore would need a total reboot.

I doubt WotC to try the licence of L5R for a D&D version of Rokugan but adding the new races, monsters and classes from "Oriental Adventures". But maybe an alternate crossover universe would possible.


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## Reynard (Mar 9, 2020)

The idea that Hasbro doesn't care about D&D is outdated given the cultural moment D&D is having and the success of streaming as entertainment. 

I would not be the least bit surprised to see WotC get the license back, create a SW rpg "powered by D&D" with an accompanying streaming show that not only included known Star Wars celebrities but was also canon.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Mar 9, 2020)

Maybe Hasbro/WotC could publish a future new edition of SW d20, even a sourcebook about the now no-canon expanded universe, or suggesting the multiverse is canon in SW RPG. But here it isn't about the lore/background/fluff, but the crunch of d20 system isn't ready to be compatible d20 future and D&D. But I would bet they are just working about that, because they want to publish new d20 TTRPG/CRPG set in sci-fi. And in Disney+ a game-live show of teenages playing SW d20, with a virtual tabletop and machinima animation,_ Critical Role version family-friend_. 

To create a d20 Future totally compatible with D&D is a true challenge for game designers because with or without firearms the characters may OP, or even usual civilian vehicles could be used to hit over an monster, for example a zombi.


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## Undrave (Mar 9, 2020)

Reynard said:


> The idea that Hasbro doesn't care about D&D is outdated given the cultural moment D&D is having and the success of streaming as entertainment.
> 
> I would not be the least bit surprised to see WotC get the license back, create a SW rpg "powered by D&D" with an accompanying streaming show that not only included known Star Wars celebrities but was also canon.




I'd rather see them do that with one of their own brands first as a proof of concept. 

Power Rangers (Hyper Force proved popular enough to be treated as an official part of the franchise on the same level as the Boom Studio comics) and GI Joe seem rife for the concept, considering the focus on team based action.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Mar 9, 2020)

I have said some times in the past WotC wants a d20 system what allows adaptations of modern-tech franchises, for example Transformers... or videogames as Overwatch. 

My advice for a G.I.Joe TTRPG is a fictional counterpart world to avoid controversies about some things from real life, and to allow more options to new type of stories. 

Also they could create D&D characters based or inspired in Hasbro franchises, for example centauresses based in my little pony.


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## Alzrius (Mar 9, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Also they could create D&D characters based or inspired in Hasbro franchises, for example centauresses based in my little pony.




Twilight Sparkle and her friends are fine just the way they are, thank you very much. 

EDUT: There's also an official My Little Pony RPG already: Tails of Equestria (that's not a typo). Hasbro licensed out the rights to a European company (appropriately named River Horse).


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## LuisCarlos17f (Mar 9, 2020)

But I am talking about something with style more shonen or young-adult, centauresses, but without those unnatural colors, with a look what would allow fiting in with another sword & sorcery heroines as Xena the warrior princess. And they wouldn't be a true adaptation, but something like the Ponyfinder line, but with arms. I don't like the idea playing sentient animals without fingers to use tools. And I suggest something like a no-canon limited edition to test the reaction by the fandom.



			https://i.pinimg.com/736x/87/14/80/8714801ca9bf512ccb779f113bab36b5.jpg
		


If they are toys you have to allow fans to create their own fanfic withought worring about the canon.


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## Eyes of Nine (Mar 9, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I found this new little time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Need to sic @talien or @Morrus or @Abstruse onto the story!


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## Morrus (Mar 9, 2020)

Eyes of Nine said:


> Need to sic @talien or @Morrus or @Abstruse onto the story!



That's video games based on their boardgames. A little outside our tabletop RPG wheelhouse!


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## LuisCarlos17f (Mar 9, 2020)

But it has to be a sign. Asmodee has got its own videogame studio... why to licence?


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## Abstruse (Mar 9, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> But it has to be a sign. Asmodee has got its own videogame studio... why to licence?



Wizards of the Coast has three, but they still licensed Baldur's Gate III to Laurien. There's limits to how much a single studio can do and, if you're trying to leverage brands as efficiently as possible, licensing them out works best. Particularly when it's something outside your wheelhouse.

FFG's video game company works on simulating tabletop games based on their IP. But what if they wanted to do an RPG based on the Beanstalk setting from Genesys, or a stealth game based on the Android setting, or some other spin-off? They can either spend a lot of money hiring people in-house with that experience and sacrifice working on other products they're used to, or they can outsource it to people who know what they're doing already.

It's why BioWare and Bethesda and CD Projekt Red didn't make their own tabletop RPG in-house (even though it would cost a fraction of the amount as developing even a spin-off mobile game let alone a AAA title) but licensed Dragon Age to Green Ronin, Fallout to Modiphius, and Witcher to R. Talsorian.


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## Abstruse (Mar 9, 2020)

Reminder: The tabletop roleplaying game industry, despite its pop-culture penetration in the past decade or so, is _incredibly small. _ICv2 estimates the gross sales for the entire RPG industry in 2018 was $65 million. That's all physical products and all Kickstarters for tabletop RPG games. When you're talking about companies used to measuring returns in a billions of dollars, the entire RPG industry is a rounding error.


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## Morrus (Mar 11, 2020)

Looks like we all spoke too soon.









						FFG Star Wars & Other Roleplaying Games Aren't Going Away After All
					

A couple of weeks ago rumours surfaced that Fantasy Flight Games‘ Star Wars and other RPGs were going away permanently (this followed earlier reports of layoffs at the company). It looks like this is quite not the case, however -- instead, according to a presentation they did at the GAMA trade...




					www.enworld.org


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## Bravesteel25 (Mar 11, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Looks like we all spoke too soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Interesting news, but I don't know if this really changes anything. I am highly skeptical that a company that is known for localization can effectively deliver Star Wars FFG products at the same level of quality as FFG themselves. We shall see, I suppose.


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## Sketchpad (Mar 11, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> My advice for a G.I.Joe TTRPG is a fictional counterpart world to avoid controversies about some things from real life, and to allow more options to new type of stories.




GI Joe already is a fictional counterpart to the real world, and has been for decades. I've been wishing for a GI Joe RPG for about as long. Now if only Hasbro would listen.


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## Morrus (Mar 12, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Maybe Hasbro/WotC could publish a future new edition of SW d20, even a sourcebook about the now no-canon expanded universe, or suggesting the multiverse is canon in SW RPG. But here it isn't about the lore/background/fluff, but the crunch of d20 system isn't ready to be compatible d20 future and D&D. But I would bet they are just working about that, because they want to publish new d20 TTRPG/CRPG set in sci-fi. And in Disney+ a game-live show of teenages playing SW d20, with a virtual tabletop and machinima animation,_ Critical Role version family-friend_.
> 
> To create a d20 Future totally compatible with D&D is a true challenge for game designers because with or without firearms the characters may OP, or even usual civilian vehicles could be used to hit over an monster, for example a zombi.



Oh god... does it ever end?


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## aramis erak (Mar 12, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Oh god... does it ever end?



No. 
Class & Level will always have it's fanboys who think everything's hunky-dory being done C&L, and detractors who think C&L is barely acceptable for newbs in fantasy settings... and most points in between.

And there are the "we rarely roll the dice" types and the "Everything requires a skill roll types"...

of all the space fantasy settings, Star Wars isn't the worst fit to d20. (Fading Suns d20 looks worse, as does the now oop Judge Dredd d20.)


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