# Druids and Multiattack



## yipwyg42 (Sep 3, 2007)

I was wondering if druids can take this feat for their wild shape abilities.

Thanks


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## Jack Simth (Sep 3, 2007)

Well, for a Druid that chooses to do a lot of wildshaping, yes, they qualify for it a lot of the time.  Makes a very useful feat for the combat-druid; that Druid-9 that's Wildshaped into a Megaraptor attacking at Talons +12 (2d6+5), 2 foreclaws +10 (1d4+2) and bite +10 (1d8+2) from 60 feet away on a charge is very effective (without the charge, it's +10/+8/+8/+8).  Moreso when the Druid also has a running Barkskin and four Greater Magic Fang spells running (which make the attack routine - on a charge - Talons +14 (2d6+7), 2 foreclaws +12 (1d4+4) and bite +12 (1d8+4)).  If the Druid also has a Bead of Karma to buff up in the morning, that becomes Talons +15 (2d6+8), 2 foreclaws +13 (1d4+5) and bite +13 (1d8+5).  

Additional items and buff spells, of course, make it worse; Longstrider, for instance, gives the Druid a charge range of 140 feet (70, in a surprise round).


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 3, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Well, for a Druid that chooses to do a lot of wildshaping, yes, they qualify for it a lot of the time.  Makes a very useful feat for the combat-druid; that Druid-9 that's Wildshaped into a Megaraptor attacking at Talons +12 (2d6+5), 2 foreclaws +10 (1d4+2) and bite +10 (1d8+2) from 60 feet away on a charge is very effective (without the charge, it's +10/+8/+8/+8).  Moreso when the Druid also has a running Barkskin and four Greater Magic Fang spells running (which make the attack routine - on a charge - Talons +14 (2d6+7), 2 foreclaws +12 (1d4+4) and bite +12 (1d8+4)).  If the Druid also has a Bead of Karma to buff up in the morning, that becomes Talons +15 (2d6+8), 2 foreclaws +13 (1d4+5) and bite +13 (1d8+5).
> 
> Additional items and buff spells, of course, make it worse; Longstrider, for instance, gives the Druid a charge range of 140 feet (70, in a surprise round).



because every druid has seen a Megaraptor running around..


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## Jack Simth (Sep 3, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> because every druid has seen a Megaraptor running around..



In general, it's a DC 18 Knoweledge(Nature) check to recognize an 8 HD animal (like the Megaraptor) on sight.  A Druid-9 with max ranks in Knoweledge(Nature) ought to be able to make that without much difficulty - especially out of combat, taking 10.

If you'd prefer, though, we could go with a Dire Lion, instead; 40 foot base move, Full Attack of 2 claws +12 melee (1d6+7) and bite +7 melee (1d8+3) (as the Druid doesn't have Weapon Focus(Claw)) normally, 2 claws +12 melee (1d6+7) and bite +10 melee (1d8+3) with Multiattack, 2 claws +14 melee (1d6+7) and bite +12 melee (1d8+3) on a charge.  You lose two points of natural armor, one natural attack, four points of Con, and 20 feet of land speed, but gain four points of strength, Improved Grab, and Rake; the Megaraptor has better racial skill bonuses, but otherwise the two are otherwise statistically identical for Wildshape.


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## mcgeedis (Sep 3, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> because every druid has seen a Megaraptor running around..




Yeah.  In the campaign I am currently in, we are in a Winterland scenario, where the warmest it has been in thousands of years is 35 F.  Our DM is greatly limiting the animals that I can wildshape into.  Needless to say, there won't be a lot of Dinosaurs running around.

Good thing is the Smilodon (Sabertoothed Tiger) and the Wolly Mammoth are available from Frostburn.


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## Infiniti2000 (Sep 3, 2007)

yipwyg42 said:
			
		

> I was wondering if druids can take this feat for their wild shape abilities.



 The answer to this lies in how the DM rules "levelling."  Can you level while a 1Round/level is active?  I personally don't allow, though not really based on balance concerns. I just don't like the MUD-like, instantaneous "Level!"


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## Jack Simth (Sep 3, 2007)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> The answer to this lies in how the DM rules "levelling."  Can you level while a 1Round/level is active?  I personally don't allow, though not really based on balance concerns. I just don't like the MUD-like, instantaneous "Level!"



At an hour/level per use, though, a Druid-8 could conceivably be in wild shape full time; the Druid-5 for 5 hours per day, the Druid 6, for 12, the Druid-7, for 21 hours per day (every waking moment, usually).

Any Druid seriously contemplating taking Multiattack is probably doing so because the Druid is spending a LOT of time in Wildshape.


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## Christian (Sep 3, 2007)

That is, indeed the question: do you qualify for feats based on abilities that you have only some of the time? I was able to convince my DM that I qualified for Multiattack for my shapeshifting druid (PHB2 alternate wildshape rules) on the grounds that it's an 'at will' ability. But you have to draw the line somewhere, and I'm not sure where it should be, or which side of it the wildshaping x times/day druid falls.


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## Jack Simth (Sep 3, 2007)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> The answer to this lies in how the DM rules "levelling."  Can you level while a 1Round/level is active?  I personally don't allow, though not really based on balance concerns. I just don't like the MUD-like, instantaneous "Level!"



... as opposed to a Rogue-4 dropping 8 ranks into a skill when leveling to 5th in which previously there were none?

Before the Rogue levels, he knows absolutely nothing about religion.  After?  Beats out many Clerics and most Wizards.  Over the course of less than a week, unless you're using variant training rules or something.

It's just a granularity issue; there will be break-points of that nature in verisimilitude in any system (although some systems, like GUPRS, do things a bit differently... and just have different sets of break points).


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## Dimwhit (Sep 3, 2007)

Sure you can. The feat requires three or more natural attacks, which the Druid has. He has to wildshape to get them, but he still has access to those attacks.

It's a very nice feat, IMO. I use it all the time.


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 3, 2007)

If I were playing a druid, I'd take that feat.  Though I like the PHBII variant better.  I would  switch it to Claw/Claw/Bite instead of Bite/Claw/Claw which make more sense, considering a druid is turning into an animal shape, where Claw primary and Bite secondary is standard for everything.


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 3, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> I would  switch it to Claw/Claw/Bite instead of Bite/Claw/Claw which make more sense, considering a druid is turning into an animal shape, where Claw primary and Bite secondary is standard for everything.




Cheetah:
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d2+1)

Leopard:
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d3+1)

_Almost_ everything.

-Hyp.


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## Infiniti2000 (Sep 3, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Any Druid seriously contemplating taking Multiattack is probably doing so because the Druid is spending a LOT of time in Wildshape.



 Wait, there are druid _not _ spending a lot of time in Wildshape?!


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## Infiniti2000 (Sep 3, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> ... as opposed to a Rogue-4 dropping 8 ranks into a skill when leveling to 5th in which previously there were none?



 As opposed to nothing, actually.  Unless, of course, in your opinion two wrongs make a right.


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## Jack Simth (Sep 4, 2007)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> Wait, there are druid _not _ spending a lot of time in Wildshape?!



Yes - especially with the various variant druids that lose Wildshape.  Any Druid at levels 1, 2, 3, or 4 spends no time at all in Wildshape (as it is simply not available).  A Druid in a more social campaign, or one where the DM enforces the communication restrictions inherent in Wildshape (and makes them matter), will likely spend a lot of time in "normal" form.

Plus there's the ones where for RP reasons, the character doesn't want to be an animal all day.  Or the ones with players who think it's overpowered if used a lot and only turn it on for specific tasks.

In short, yes, there are Druids who don't spend a lot of time in Wildshape - they're just not looking to maximize their effectiveness.



			
				Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> As opposed to nothing, actually.  Unless, of course, in your opinion two wrongs make a right.



The point is that, as a granularity issue, it's inherent to the game; there is no real getting around it.  

The Barbarian leveling from 1st to 2nd level can potentially double his HP (1 in 12 chance; more likely with a Wizard, as that has a 1 in 4 chance).  If it's a gradual increase, shouldn't the barbarian have been able to continue standing just yesterday when he was reduced to -1 HP?

The Druid leveling from 5th to 6th more than doubles the amount of time he can spend in animal shape (goes from 5 hours max to 12 hours max, by way of two uses at 6 hours).  

The Sorcerer-7, when leveling up to 8th, is suddenly able to cast four Empowered Scorching rays, when previously unable to cast even a single Empowered Scorching Ray.

The D&D system even has some built-in defenses against most powergaming this way - Con higher when you level?  Doesn't matter - your max HP is as variable as your Con is; when the bonus goes away, so do the extra HP. Qualify for the feat by way of a temporary strength boost?  You can't use a feat when you no longer meet the prerequisites.   Long-term intelligence boosters (except the permanent ones, such as the inherent bonus from a Wish) specify that they don't grant extra skill points.  

It's a granularity issue, similar to how a cat has a very good chance of taking down a commoner-1 in a single round - it's fundamentally inherent to any modeling system; there will be oddities if you look at it too closely.  It will always be there in some way, shape, or form (offer void if you're using quantum dice that are quite happily giving you random irrational numbers for results) no matter how much you house-rule things.  You may not like it, but in order to continue playing the game, you have to accept some degree of it.

As a DM, just draw a line somewhere; you can only qualify for the feat with a round/level buff effect?  No; you can't keep that up long enough to practice with it.  You can qualify for it by way of an hour/level effect that you can do a couple of times per day (especially if it is one you're routinely using anyway)?  Why _not_?  It's practically always-on anyway.


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## milo (Sep 4, 2007)

As a DM I have always ruled that you can take any feat.  The only time they function is when you meet the prereqs.  They also don't function for any feats chained for them if you don't meet the prereqs.  I have had sorcerers take power attack with a strength of 12, cast bull's strength and go to town with his strength of 16.  I don't know if it is the best system, but it works for me.


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## frankthedm (Sep 4, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> If I were playing a druid, I'd take that feat.  Though I like the PHBII variant better.  I would  switch it to Claw/Claw/Bite instead of Bite/Claw/Claw which make more sense, considering a druid is turning into an animal shape, where Claw primary and Bite secondary is standard for everything.



Bite primary, two claws secondary was a game balance choice.


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 5, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Cheetah:
> Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d2+1)
> 
> Leopard:
> ...



that's why I said standard, of which those are not.





			
				frankthedm said:
			
		

> Bite primary, two claws secondary was a game balance choice.



against what?  when you shift, all your saves tank, all your bling is gone and you're just a smart animal. Even a house cat, bane of the commoner, has claw/claw/bite. You also have to house rule a few things just to let the druid cast many of his buffing spells on himself.  Greater Magic Fang? no claws, no bite when normal form, so no target for the spell. Enlarge Animal? not an animal until shifted.  I'm sure it can be super-powered if you pile on enough cheese, but as is, it isn't as strong as a standard druid, though it looks more fun to play.


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 5, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> that's why I said standard, of which those are not.




So by "Claw primary, bite secondary is standard for everything", you meant "Claw primary, bite secondary is standard for everything except for non-standard things"?

-Hyp.


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## Jack99 (Sep 5, 2007)

yipwyg42 said:
			
		

> I was wondering if druids can take this feat for their wild shape abilities.
> 
> Thanks




Yes

The fact that the druid can spend a significant amount of time per day in wildshape (hours), is what makes it okay in my book.


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## billd91 (Sep 5, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> that's why I said standard, of which those are not.
> 
> .




On the other hand, they are more appropriate for leopard and cheetah behavior... which is what should define the standard for a particular creature.


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 6, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> So by "Claw primary, bite secondary is standard for everything", you meant "Claw primary, bite secondary is standard for everything except for non-standard things"?
> 
> -Hyp.



by "Claw Primary, Bite Secondary is standard" means 'Most of the creatures with claw and bite attacks use claw primary and bite secondary, except for a few logical exceptions, which probably make some sense.' A druid who gave up an animal companion and the full wildshape ability for shifting shouldn't be one of those exceptions.  It's like: "oh, you're taking the more fun but less powerful ability? here, have a free dose of screw you too"   

If the shifter variant druid is of a level where they are shifting into a reasonable facsimile of a tiger or a dire ape, it should act like a tiger or a dire ape, not a puma or a chimp.


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 6, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> by "Claw Primary, Bite Secondary is standard" means 'Most of the creatures with claw and bite attacks use claw primary and bite secondary, except for a few logical exceptions, which probably make some sense.'




I have no problem with that.

But "Claw Primary, Bite Secondary is standard _for everything_" seems to go out of its way to preclude the possibility of exceptions.

Which is why I suggested "almost everything".

-Hyp.


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 6, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I have no problem with that.
> 
> But "Claw Primary, Bite Secondary is standard _for everything_" seems to go out of its way to preclude the possibility of exceptions.
> 
> ...



Much like English, there are exceptions to every rule.
Adding a power down to a power down is like adding insult to uhh.. claw/claw/bite..

cheetahs and apes don't really have much in the way of claws anyway.  cheetahs' feet are for running, and apes should have slam attacks anyway.  Until 2001, of course, when one picks up a bone club and invents the AoO.


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 6, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> Much like English, there are exceptions to every rule.




Like Cheetahs, Leopards, and Druids, apparently.

But what makes you say it's a rule?  It's not stated anywhere that when a creature possesses claws and a bite, the claws will be primary.  We have examples where the claws are primary, and we have examples where the bite is primary.  In the absence of a rule, there can't be exceptions to it!

Some creatures have primary claws, and some creatures - and druids - have a primary bite.



> cheetahs and apes don't really have much in the way of claws anyway.  cheetahs' feet are for running, and apes should have slam attacks anyway.




Cheetahs and leopards.  Apes have primary claws.

-Hyp.


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 7, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Apes have primary claws.
> 
> -Hyp.



that's why I said _should _have slam attacks. a gorilla doesn't claw you, it beats you down like a pro wrestler pretends to.

Oh, and if there's no rule, then Druids should get Claw/Claw/Bite, because if there's no rule, picking claw primary isn't against the nonexistent rules.

There's no rule saying you have to take the SRD at literal meaning, but you do so when it suits.  No different here.


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 7, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> that's why I said _should _have slam attacks.




Right - but you were lumping them in with cheetahs as if they were one of the two animals with a primary bite and secondary claws.  That's cheetahs and leopards, not cheetahs and apes.



> Oh, and if there's no rule, then Druids should get Claw/Claw/Bite, because if there's no rule, picking claw primary isn't against the nonexistent rules.




There's no rule that says the claws must be primary and the bite secondary for all animals.  There _is_ a rule that says the shapeshifting druid has bite primary and claws secondary.

-Hyp.


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## Dimwhit (Sep 7, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> There's no rule that says the claws must be primary and the bite secondary for all animals.  There _is_ a rule that says the shapeshifting druid has bite primary and claws secondary.
> 
> -Hyp.




Really? Where? So you're saying when my Druid shapes into a Bear, his primary attack is Bite and his secondary is claw/claw? Maybe I'm not catching all this argument, but I've never heard that.


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 7, 2007)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Really? Where? So you're saying when my Druid shapes into a Bear, his primary attack is Bite and his secondary is claw/claw? Maybe I'm not catching all this argument, but I've never heard that.




Not the wildshaping druid; the Shapeshifter variant from PHBII.

-Hyp.


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 7, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Right - but you were lumping them in with cheetahs as if they were one of the two animals with a primary bite and secondary claws.  That's cheetahs and leopards, not cheetahs and apes.
> 
> -Hyp.



reading something that isn't there.

cheetahs have secondary claw attacks, but not much in the way of claws.  
apes have primary claws, but not much in the way of claws, they do more pummel than claw, and many have wicked canines.  monkeys, on the other hand, have primary bite attacks, but bigger claws than apes, relatively speaking.


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 7, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> cheetahs have secondary claw attacks, but not much in the way of claws.




And leopards?

-Hyp.


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## Dimwhit (Sep 7, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Not the wildshaping druid; the Shapeshifter variant from PHBII.
> 
> -Hyp.




Ah! Good, glad I haven't been playing my Druid wrong all this time.


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 9, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> And leopards?
> 
> -Hyp.



should be claw/claw/bite.  they have much stronger legs. 


> Interesting Facts
> Leopards can drag up to 3 times their own body weight into a tree and place it on branches over 6 m (19.7 ft) high.



And one variety can climb upside down.  The MM writers dropped the ball on this one too.


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## MarkB (Sep 9, 2007)

milo said:
			
		

> As a DM I have always ruled that you can take any feat.  The only time they function is when you meet the prereqs.  They also don't function for any feats chained for them if you don't meet the prereqs.  I have had sorcerers take power attack with a strength of 12, cast bull's strength and go to town with his strength of 16.  I don't know if it is the best system, but it works for me.



This matches the FAQ as I recall, which states that you can take a feat even if you only meet its prerequisites part of the time, but you will gain its benefits only whilst you meet its prerequisites.

As I recall, the example given involves a character wearing a Belt of Giant Strength, who can take a feat for which he qualifies due to his enhanced Strength score, but will lose the feat's benefits whenever he removes the belt.


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## Dimwhit (Sep 9, 2007)

MarkB said:
			
		

> This matches the FAQ as I recall, which states that you can take a feat even if you only meet its prerequisites part of the time, but you will gain its benefits only whilst you meet its prerequisites.
> 
> As I recall, the example given involves a character wearing a Belt of Giant Strength, who can take a feat for which he qualifies due to his enhanced Strength score, but will lose the feat's benefits whenever he removes the belt.



 Which should really answer that issue. Until the "FAQ aren't official" crowd comes along...


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## Elephant (Sep 9, 2007)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Which should really answer that issue. Until the "FAQ aren't official" crowd comes along...




Well, the FAQ document _isn't_ official


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## Will (Sep 9, 2007)

I think the RAW doesn't allow druids to have Multiattack.

On the other hand, I think it makes sense that they SHOULD get it, and I really like the idea of 'you can take any feat, only works when prereqs met.'


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## frankthedm (Sep 9, 2007)

Will said:
			
		

> On the other hand, I think it makes sense that they SHOULD get it, and I really like the idea of 'you can take any feat, only works when prereqs met.'



That allows people to use low level feats on high level feats.


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## Jack Simth (Sep 9, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> That allows people to use low level feats on high level feats.



How well the particular house rule works depends mostly on starting level.  

If you start at 1st, getting that higher-level feat a bit early means that you're spending several levels short a feat or two - which is a fairly reasonable balancing factor.

If you start at higher levels, you're missing the weak start, and so don't have much in the way of a balancing factor for the more stringent feats.


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## Dimwhit (Sep 9, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> That allows people to use low level feats on high level feats.




Not really. The idea (from what I'm seeing) is that you take a feat you only qualify for part of the time. So you would still have to be able to qualify for the feat when you take, if even for only a certain amount of time each day. That way you couldn't take Improved Crit at 3rd level, since you would NEVER qualify for it while at 3rd level (through a spell, etc.).

Watch, now someone will come up with a way to qualify for Imp Crit at first level...


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## Will (Sep 9, 2007)

Yeah, I kinda meant (but didn't actually SAY) that 'Any feat you sometimes qualify for, you can take; but can only use when you have prereqs)

Consider the idea clarified!


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