# Tips to create and play an effective druid?



## Shin Okada (Jul 15, 2010)

I saw only 3 druid PCs in action, one guardian, one predator, & one swarm all in heroic tier. All of them seemed to be ..... mediocre at best, and had some troubles.

Their ranged and area powers are not as powerful nor useful comparing to those of the other controllers. While their melee powers are not that bad, but not particularly good either. And they are fragile as a melee combatant. Swarm druid is a little bit tougher than the others but still not tough enough to stay in melee combat.

Am I (and my friends who played druids) missing something? Are their good tips to make them shine?


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## circadianwolf (Jul 16, 2010)

Well, swarm druids without pre-errata Hide Armor Expertise are lost above heroic tier, as they get to either tank their armor class or lose their class features.

Druids can make very good melee Polearm Momentum users. Take Battle Awareness to multiclass fighter (a great feat on its own), then Polearm Momentum (which also works on spears) and use an Alfsair Spear (which functions as a totem). Add on some way of extending your slides (usually Rushing Cleats, or Battering Shield if you ignore the druids and shields errata) and Savage Rend is now an at-will prone, which is pretty good control. (Is it sad that fighters have the best controller feat in the game, barring perhaps Psychic Lock? Yes. But fighters get all the best toys in 4E.)

Ruthless Killer (from D382) makes Grasping Claws an at-will immobilize, which can turn you into a pseudo-defender. It was great for pre-nerf swarm druids, and is now mostly useful to guardians who buff their defensive capabilities.

Druids also have Fire Hawk, which is an amazing at-will. Predators have Thorn Spray, a great encounter blast that drops defenses by -4 or -5 at level 1. The summoning dailies are great, too, in that they add another body to the combat and don't require an action to attack with.

Druids definitely take more finesse to play than other classes (as do controllers in general, but druids are probably even the most difficult of controllers).

Guardian druids shouldn't be fragile, though, and neither should be swarm druids with a decent AC; they have HP equivalent to a striker or leader with a high CON, certainly more staying power than most rogues or rangers or even warlords. Predator druids are highly mobile--more like rogues and rangers in that regard--and should be able to generally stay out of significant danger.


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## Stumblewyk (Jul 16, 2010)

I'm playing a 7th-level human Guardian Druid multiclassed into Shaman (for RP reasons).  My druid is INSANELY flexible, and that's what makes him so invaluable to the party.  If there are enemy casters, I lock them down in Beast form (and with my summoned wolf), if there are enemy minions, or swarms of non-minions, I'm wiping them out with area at-wills, and hindering their movement if they weren't minions.  If something gets up on top of him, I knock them back with Chill Wind, and resume the casting.  There is literally no situation I can't handle with him.

I will agree with the above sentiment that it takes some finesse to play a druid, but also as said above, this holds true for any controller.  You have to know when to drop out of melee and beast form (or when it's prudent to enter it in the first place).  You have to come up with creative uses for your at-wills.  I've played striker in Beast form, I've played controller in caster form, heck, I've "tanked" with my druid in caster form by using Grasping Tide to lock down a big baddie when everyone but me and Sorcerer were unconscious.

When you're careful with the Druid, your flexibility makes you absolutely invaluable.


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## Aulirophile (Jul 16, 2010)

Wild Shape, played by RAW, is a trap. Druids are the worst controllers and I am including the very poorly supported Psion.


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## circadianwolf (Jul 16, 2010)

What do you mean by a "trap"?

Druids are definitely the worst controllers, but that is because, as Stumblewyk discusses, they emphasize their secondary roles much more highly, and a more effective characters because of it.

The psion is effective mainly through at-will spamming, though, so I'd still rather play a druid myself.


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## Shin Okada (Jul 16, 2010)

Well, I guess I am starting to understand why those 3 druids were sub-per.

All of the parties I saw druids in action were at-least 4-men parties. One of it were even 7-men party. When all the roles are filled, specialists tend to shine more comparing to PCs with versatility.

But still, I wonder if druids are good at their secondary role. Predator druid does not seem to have better striking power (DPR) even comparing to defenders. And I am not sure if other druids are particularly Leader-like.


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## Aulirophile (Jul 16, 2010)

circadianwolf said:


> What do you mean by a "trap"?
> 
> Druids are definitely the worst controllers, but that is because, as Stumblewyk discusses, they emphasize their secondary roles much more highly, and a more effective characters because of it.
> 
> The psion is effective mainly through at-will spamming, though, so I'd still rather play a druid myself.



I mean "trap." Guardian Druids don't have the HP or the Defenses to make secondary defenders, because nearly all of the things you can do to boost defenses don't work in Beast Form. Shields, Hafted Defense, Rhythm Blade, etc., the only thing that works is Hide Armor Spec. So you're a low hp, low defense secondary Defender with a poor Mark punishment. And of all the people I've seen play Druids, almost none of them respected the Beast Form restriction, which might explain why anyone thinks they're good.

Remember: you can't use any utility powers without the Beast Form keyword, either, it isn't just attacks. And the best utility powers, for the most part, don't have the Beast Form keyword. So just stay in caster form all the time? Doesn't work, the best attack powers (and the best controller powers) have the Beast Form keyword, particularly among the encounter powers. The dailies are about 50/50. But if you're meleeing in Beast Form, that shift out isn't always enough to get away to use a Ranged caster power,

Swarm Druid? Poor riders, and that resist is completely insufficient after the HAE nerf, particularly with MM3 monsters. The rounds to die calculator just laughs at Swarm Druids at this point. 

Predator Druids aren't God awful, but their control is still sub-par, and their striking, even thoroughly optimized, barely does 2/3 of a normal striker's damage, and in order to pull it off they give up basically all control and have to expose themselves to getting punched in the face. 

Short: If you want to control the battlefield, play a Wizard or Invoker. If you want to be a Defender who does damage or completely locks down a section of the fight, play a Fighter. If you want versatility, play a Paladin|Warlock, Swordmage|Wizard, or hell, play a Fighter. 

There is no one thing the Druid that does that other classes do not do extraordinarily better _and _they are, on average, so poor that picking a class who is baseline really good at one thing and that specializing in another direction will result in a character very good at both those things _at the same time. _Druids can be good at one thing at a time (literally, if they're in Beast Form they completely lose being good at whatever their Caster Form is doing and vice versa), and not that good at it, because Beast Form is a trap.


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## LuckyAdrastus (Jul 16, 2010)

I played a level 8 druid in a one-off and it worked very well.  Standard elven predator druid, no fancy tricks.  Savage Rend, Grasping Tide, and Swarm of Locusts gave me lots of options with at-wills (slides, prone, and combat advantage, two AOE's).  I also got a lot out of the encounter powers (shifts, dazes, pushes, AC de-buffs).  With Agile Form feat, and Pouncing Beast Hide Armor, I could shift 1 or 2 squares every time I used wild-shape, on top of a speed of 8.  So lots and lots of maneuverability.

We had one fight outside that split into two mini-fights about 10 squares apart.  Every round I was able to contribute to both fights -- throw a ranged attack at one fight, minor action into beast form (shift 2), and move 8 to set up flanking for an ally in the other fight.

I'd strongly recommend toughness as your 1st feat, so you can more easily take a hit or two while near enemies.  But remember, you defenses don't change any between beast and human form, so don't fear being in human form near enemies.  With the feats/armor I mentioned, changing form always shifts you one or two squares, so I did it basically every turn I could.

Here is my build (at level 9).  Nothing fancy, just CharOpped with advice from the Druid Handbook at the Wizard's Forum:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Irena Moresta Se, level 9
Elf, Druid
Build: Predator Druid
Primal Aspect: Primal Predator
Background: Elf - Wild Elf (Acrobatics class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 12, Dex 20, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 24 Fort: 17 Reflex: 22 Will: 22
HP: 69 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +16, Perception +16, Athletics +9, Acrobatics +13

FEATS
Druid: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Toughness
Level 2: Implement Expertise (Staff)
Level 4: Improved Initiative
Level 6: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
Level 8: Agile Form

POWERS
Druid at-will 1: Savage Rend
Druid at-will 1: Grasping Tide (Druid)
Druid at-will 1: Swarming Locusts
Druid encounter 1: Thorn Spray
Druid daily 1: Summon Giant Toad
Druid utility 2: Warding Wind
Druid encounter 3: Predator's Flurry
Druid daily 5: Vine Serpents
Druid utility 6: Black Harbinger
Druid encounter 7: Blood-Spray Bite
Druid daily 9: Summon Great Eagle

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Pouncing Beast Hide Armor +2, Accurate staff of Ruin +2, Badge of the Berserker +2


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## Bungo_Underhill (Jul 16, 2010)

Druids are pretty good at forced movement or movement denial effects and can have great mobilty themselves (especially if your an elven predator).

Whilst they're not as good as dishing out conditions as some other controllers they excel at getting where thet need to be, or putting the enemy there.

With a horned helmet and some clawed gloves the druid can charge into and out of flanking positions and deal impressive single target damage.

Dropping summoned beasts with instinctive attacks onto the battlefeild also distracts monsters attentions, restricts their movement options and sets up more flanking opportunities for the party.

With a minor (or free) action shift the druid can also get out of dodge more easily than many other controllers.

A druid also has better options against enemy artillery and controllers than other controllers. Getting into a fire fight isn't really a great tactic against these monsters, but provoking a melee basic attack from a frail guy with a staff isn't to scary for most archers, a bear on the otherhand...


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## MrMyth (Jul 16, 2010)

I've seen several predator druids in action, and they are reasonably effective at being sub-strikers. They have excellent mobility, certainly.

What I haven't seen in action is a Druid that actually focuses on the strength of the class - adaptability. I think the Druid's ability to go where it is needed and have the right tool for the moment is what it was designed around. Too many seem to want to focus on one aspect above all else - and, as mentioned, there is always some other class that does that one aspect better. 

Instead, I think trying to focus on versatility and adaptability would be the key to a strong druid.


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## Stumblewyk (Jul 16, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> What I haven't seen in action is a Druid that actually focuses on the strength of the class - adaptability. I think the Druid's ability to go where it is needed and have the right tool for the moment is what it was designed around. Too many seem to want to focus on one aspect above all else - and, as mentioned, there is always some other class that does that one aspect better.



 That's why the druid I'm playing (that I described above) proves to be so useful in my party - he's got a tool or two to apply in any given situation.  I can move guys around, I can lock down casters, I can make hindering terrain, I can provide additional melee support, you-name-it.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jul 16, 2010)

Well, one of the things that druids have over most other classes is the fun of roleplaying two different forms.  Now I know for many people they look at things from a straight numbers perspective and thus claim the druid stinks, which is fine for them... but I know the times I've player a druid, being able to shapechange into other forms as part of actually roleplaying has been a boon and a lot of fun.  Time to intimidate somebody?  Shapechange into a crocodile  to do so, and sometimes the DM might give me a small bonus for it.  Or change into a dire bat at night, and sometimes be given a small boon because of it.  (And before anyone says that technically these things shouldn't happen because you aren't 'supposed' to get the animal's special abilities when you wild shape... this is where a good DM, creative thinking and the essence of Pg. 42 comes into play.)

And I'll also be honest... being able to have both my druid miniature on the game board, plus a whole host of animal miniatures in my possession so that I can swap my figure out back and forth during fights as I Wild Shape is also a lot of fun.  Using the wolf or hyena through much of a fight, then all of a sudden dropping the dire bear miniature onto the table when I break out a Daily gives myself and the rest of the players a little bit of a thrill.

It might not mean much for the purely mechanically-based numbers players... but for someone like me who enjoys the rp aspects both in and out of combat... druids are great.


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## circadianwolf (Jul 16, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> I mean "trap." Guardian Druids don't have the HP or the Defenses to make secondary defenders, because nearly all of the things you can do to boost defenses don't work in Beast Form. Shields, Hafted Defense, Rhythm Blade, etc., the only thing that works is Hide Armor Spec. So you're a low hp, low defense secondary Defender with a poor Mark punishment. And of all the people I've seen play Druids, almost none of them respected the Beast Form restriction, which might explain why anyone thinks they're good.
> 
> Remember: you can't use any utility powers without the Beast Form keyword, either, it isn't just attacks. And the best utility powers, for the most part, don't have the Beast Form keyword. So just stay in caster form all the time? Doesn't work, the best attack powers (and the best controller powers) have the Beast Form keyword, particularly among the encounter powers. The dailies are about 50/50. But if you're meleeing in Beast Form, that shift out isn't always enough to get away to use a Ranged caster power,
> 
> ...




Alright, I see where you're coming from, and agree with most of it. "Trap" still seems an odd word choice to me (I think it's pretty clear what you're giving up), but yeah, an optimized druid will not compete with other optimized characters. (I play a paladin|warlock myself, haha. Played a swarm druid back before HAE got nerfed. Good point that MM3 damage increase makes swarms even worse.)

As DEFCON points out, the fun of a druid is mostly in milking wildshape for as much hilarious out-of-combat RP stuff you can pull off. Combat competence is secondary to that. (Which is why I find it tempting to grab a druid multiclass--and get wildshape at-will--on any character that isn't otherwise MCing and has a spare feat.)


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## Infiniti2000 (Jul 16, 2010)

The best "druid" might be a hybrid cleric/beast master ranger.


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## KidSnide (Jul 16, 2010)

I played a level 11 predator druid for a session and found the character comparably effective to the other characters in the group.  The key I found is that you have to play a flexible character differently from a specialist.  

With a specialist character (like a archer-ranger or a main-line defender), the key is to apply your strength as effectively as possible.  Generalist characters (including most mixed-role hybrids) are harder to play because the don't have the same type of niche.  Instead you have to identify the enemy's weakness focus there.  You'll never be as effective as a specialist in that specialist's wheelhouse, but you can contribute just as much to the party by applying your (more limited) power where it hurts the enemy the most.

-KS


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## KarinsDad (Jul 16, 2010)

I can only comment on the Swarm Druid in our group.

She's been in the group from levels 14 through 18.

She's extremely versatile, but she doesn't do a lot of damage. She does some with a Horned Helm and Clawed Gloves, but not a lot.

She multi-classed Ranger and took Horizon Walker as her Paragon Path, so she has darkvision and the highest healing surge value in the party.

Without even taking Improved Initiative or Danger Sense, she has the highest init in the party. Being elven, she has the highest speed and Elven Accuracy has worked out well since she only has two area effect powers between At Wills and Encounters, so many single target powers. Instead of multi-foe control, she has focused more on helping the party than harming the enemies. For example, combat advantage from Swarming Locust, stunning a single foe with Thunder Crash, making an ally invisible with Camouflage Cloak, teleporting with Fey Strider, and getting out of trouble with Feywild Sojourn.

She has an insanely high Perception, so with that and her high init, she often is in the front of the group where she can detect danger early, drop her single Encounter area effect on some foes, and then act like a skirmisher for the rest of the encounter.

Her high healing surge value has made up somewhat for her average defenses. The Cleric has Cloak of Courage, so although the Druid sometimes gets in trouble, she starts out each encounter with a lot of temporary hit points and she gets healed like a Defender. And she has a few mini-striker-like combos like charging, or dropping Fire Hawk on an Artillery or Controller.

All in all, a definitely playable PC. I don't know if she would have been less capable at heroic levels since she didn't play that PC then.


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## AllNamesRTaken (Jul 17, 2010)

Hello,

I could add my experience of playing a predator druid, serpent paragon path, multiclass assassin, dps speced with claw gloves, horned helmet, rushing cleats for add to push, and some totem that adds damage when pushing, sliding or proneing, up to lvl 18. I am by all means not maxed out as i have focused heavily on perception and movement.

My at-will maxes out (with CA, charge and one assassins shroud) at:
1d8+7d6+1d10+17 + a 3 square slide
and the lowest it gets is:
1d8+4d6+14 + a 3 square slide

I also have lots of encounters and dailies that force move or prone and many that gets my full 4d6 dammage add from push and poison. Most fun push is probably blood sprayed bite that pushes eveyone I am not attacking halfway across the battle map or that lvl 1 or 3 encounter that lets me attack 2 targets and givethe full dammage of the normal at-will bit one extra square of push. Another awesome encounter is one that lets me do at-wills at everyone adjacent that attacks someone on the following round, since that means i toss people around and do crazy dammage at the same time. Add to this a passive perception of 37, decent stealth, a normal sped of 9 and a maxed out speed of 16 without running, and a feat that lets me do the same nice at-will at everyone charging me as an opertunity action and I have a blast playing her.

At lvl 21 if I choose to I can exchange 2squares of push for at-will incorperal and phaseing when I run.

My plan isnt to single spec max out something but createa bad ass hunter and king of the foodchain kind of druid and sofar I like it.


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## Victim (Jul 17, 2010)

AllNamesRTaken said:


> Hello,
> 
> I could add my experience of playing a predator druid, serpent paragon path, multiclass assassin, dps speced with claw gloves, horned helmet, rushing cleats for add to push, and some totem that adds damage when pushing, sliding or proneing, up to lvl 18. I am by all means not maxed out as i have focused heavily on perception and movement.
> 
> ...




Wow, you can Push or prone enemies and are good at charging!

Wait, that's falls more into the barbarian's area of expertise than a controller's.


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## Gradine (Jul 17, 2010)

Man, remember when the Druid first came out and everyone was all "Now _this _is how a controller is supposed to look like! Unlike that dumb Wizard. Stupid, stupid Wizard..."

And also, remember when people played Druids because they wanted to play a character that was a druid (as opposed to an optimal controller)?

As has been pointed out many times so far, 4e Druids trade optimization for versatility. Whether that's worth it or not (mechanically) depends on the party's makeup and the way the DM designs encounters. The better the DM is as at designing interesting and diverse encounters, the more worthwhile the druid becomes. I don't really play or read modules, so I have no clue how they stack up there.

Thing is, controllers are the most nebulous role there is. Trading optimization for versatility would get any leader, defender or especially striker laughed out of the game. Parties tend to work just fine without controllers, however, which means for any party that picks up a Druid, versatility balances well with optimization.


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## pathfinderq1 (Jul 18, 2010)

I will echo what several posters have said about the usefulness of flexibility.  I'm currently running an elven predator druid in a new game- we're one session into 2nd level.  While I had originally planned to be a full-time beast form melee/charge character, I'm in a party of melee-types, so I have adapted.

I'm currently our point-man/scout (MC ranger for Stealth), with high Perception, Initiative, and ridiculous mobility.  With elven longbow proficiency and Chill wind, I provide most of our ranged attack and minion sweeping.  I'm also currently our only ritual caster, and our back-up healer (the only one with Heal trained for an auto- Second Wind).  The speed/mobility advantage has saved us from at least one TPK, and while I don't out-damage our melee killers, the minion-sweep at range has been very useful (and, with every one else up close, I can stay back- I've only been directly damaged twice so far).  The added advantage of having several NPCs think our Warlord has a well-trained pet dog is just gravy- dogs overhear all kinds of things.


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## babinro (Jul 18, 2010)

From the 30 levels (first 15 as guardian-last 15 as swarm), I must say that Druids certainly have the feeling of being underpowered.  That being said, the trade off is that they are extremely versatile in combat <particularly the swarm>.

If you want to be able to tank, attack at range, target multiple foes at once and have excellent daily selection, a swarm druid is your way to go.  Unfortunately, you will not excel at the norms of combat through your at-wills/encounter powers at lease compared to more focused classes.  Truly a jack of all trades class in my opinion (much like what you'd expect a bard to be).


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## fba827 (Jul 18, 2010)

As a couple others have said, druids are more about versatility.  They can act as secondary/backup in a couple roles (leader, striker, controller) depending on your build choices but they do not necessarily excel in any of those areas above other classes unless you really try and focus.

In my group, over various campaigns and one-shots, i've seen
 --  a guardian druid who was trying to take just as many beast form abilities.  In the end, really, his control, striker, and leader abilities were all fairly forgetable.
 -- a predator druid who was as focused on beast form powers as he could be.  when he hit, it was for decent damage and often had a rider effect (like daze or prone at later heroic levels).  I am biased because this is a druid i was playing, but i feel satisfied with the build (the group would sometimes not have the striker or controller PCs due to player unavailability, so this druid PC was often able to at least dabble in those roles to keep them minimally covered in a pinch)
 -- a hybrid swarm druid-cleric.   i haven't seen it in action enough to make an informed decision/opinion on this yet, though so far i've seen more of his 'cleric' side than i have of his druid side.

But it has a lot to do with party size and composition.  Druids make good "secondary" characters if you already have the roles covered by other party members and just want a little extra backup.  And the wildshape capability just had a lot of potential in terms of roleplay and noncombat situations.


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## AllNamesRTaken (Jul 18, 2010)

Victim said:
			
		

> Wow, you can Push or prone enemies and are good at charging!
> 
> Wait, that's falls more into the barbarian's area of expertise than a controller's.




Well, first I would like to thank you for the disrespect.

I think my simple build is both fun to play and brings usefulness to the table. The reason for the latter is the high perception, close to dps class dammage, at-will 3 sqr slides which I absolutely believe is controller type power and great for setting up rogues or removing threats from casters. Add to that several enc and dailies that rearrange the battle field and even stun save ends. The high movement lets me rearrange the monsters I like and get away aferwards and high init, with high charge dammage lets me front load dammage to take out some one fast in the beginning of a fight.

Do I outperform a barbarian? Dps wise, maybe, movement wise, probably, controlwise absolutely, durabilitywise, no way in hell.

I think the druids strngth lies in their ability to play multiple roles and that thier limited mass control abilities is lifted by plain awesome basic attacks, strong secondary roles, and great utility feats.


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## Aulirophile (Jul 18, 2010)

AllNamesRTaken said:


> Do I outperform a barbarian? Dps wise, *no*, movement wise, *not far behind*, controlwise, *depends on the barbarian*, durabilitywise, no way in hell.



Fixed that for you. Greatspear Barbarians are a serious lockdown build that have even more push/slide+proning then a Druid build, and are one of the most highly mobile strikers. Not to mention that, comparing optimized vs optimized, the Barbarian's average DPR is more then double that of the Druid.

And the "versatility" argument is a little weak. Even if your group needs that versatility, a hybrid does it better without sacrificing half their powers (something Druids, oddly, can't pull off). Swordmage|Wizard is a force to be reckoned with at melee or range.


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## AllNamesRTaken (Jul 18, 2010)

Aulirophile said:
			
		

> Fixed that for you. Greatspear Barbarians are a serious lockdown build that have even more push/slide+proning then a Druid build, and are one of the most highly mobile strikers. Not to mention that, comparing optimized vs optimized, the Barbarian's average DPR is more then double that of the Druid.
> 
> And the "versatility" argument is a little weak. Even if your group needs that versatility, a hybrid does it better without sacrificing half their powers (something Druids, oddly, can't pull off). Swordmage|Wizard is a force to be reckoned with at melee or range.




Interesting since I really want to try a barb out but cant get a spec that holds its own. Please share your knowledge in barb opting, since I really want to play one. 
I at least have an at will that can hit for 26 to 77 and avg on 51,5 or something on a charge.


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