# How Many Spells Can You Cast In A Round?



## Fedifensor (Apr 29, 2007)

D&D combats are often about who can dish out the most in the first round.  So, how many spells can you cast in a single round?

Best I can come up with is 5 (for a sorcerer) or 6 (for a wizard), and it requires 3 non-SRD books (Eberron Campaign Setting, Complete Arcane, and Spell Compendium).  However, it can be accomplished as early as 13th/14th level (Wiz/Sor).  I'm probably missing a few things.


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## shilsen (Apr 29, 2007)

Care to post the particular methods you had in mind?


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## Victim (Apr 29, 2007)

Here's one idea:

Sorcerer w/ Rapid metamagic (either PH2 feature swap, or CM feat).  Cast Arcane Fusion (cast a 3rd level spell and 1st level spell at once with a 5th level spell; there's a higher level versiont too).  Cast Quickened Arcane Fusion (possibly via meta rod).  End turn.  Immediately cast Celerity (PH2), and use the extra standard action to cast another Arcane Fusion.  Congratulations, you've just cast 3 third level spells and 3 first level spells.

Using Eberron, you could add in Action Surge to get up to 8 effective casts.


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## Fedifensor (Apr 29, 2007)

Well, I was waiting to see what ideas everyone else had, but here's the core components of my method:

14th level wizard

Spell Matrix (7th level Sor/Wiz, from Spell Compendium)
Twin Spell (Metamagic feat, from Complete Arcane)
Action Surge (feat from Eberron Setting)

For starters, when you prep for the day, memorize _spell matrix_, and two twinned 3rd level spells.  Hopefully you have an Int high enough to get the bonus 7th level spell...it's not too hard to afford a +6 stat boost item at that level.

During the day, when combat seems to be likely within the next two hours or so, store two 2nd level spells in the _spell matrix_.  _Scorching ray_ is a good choice for damage, or you can go with _glitterdust _or _cloud of bedevilment_ if you're trying to force as many saving throws as possible.  Per the rules of _spell matrix_, you can release both spells as a single swift action if they're both 2nd level or lower.

When combat starts, activate the spell matrix to launch the two 2nd level spells, then cast one of your twinned spells.  After that, spend 2 action points to take an extra standard action during the round, and cast the other twinned spell.  You can either go the direct damage route with things like _fireball_, or take spells like _slow _and _stinking cloud_ to maximize the number of saves your opponents have to make.

Sorcerers have to take a full round action to cast metamagic, so they can't pull the twinned spell trick using the standard action from Action Surge.  That drops the total number of spells they can throw in a round to 5.  However, they do have more spell slots, so they can do this trick more than one fight per day...


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## Fedifensor (Apr 29, 2007)

Victim said:
			
		

> Sorcerer w/ Rapid metamagic (either PH2 feat swap, or CM feat).  Cast Arcane Fusion (cast a 3rd level spell and 1st level spell at once with a 5th level spell; there's a higher level versiont too).  Cast Quickened Arcane Fusion (possibly via meta rod).  End turn.  Immediately cast Celerity (PH2), and use the extra standard action to cast another Arcane Fusion.  Congratulations, you've just cast 3 third level spells and 3 first level spells.




Hmm, when you get 9th level spells, you could memorize a twinned _arcane fusion_ spell...that up the possibilities quite a bit.  Haven't seen _celerity_...I'll have to find someone with a PH2 and look it up.


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## Engilbrand (Apr 29, 2007)

What about using the Swiftblade and its ability to cast twice in a round. 2 normal Arcane Fusions and then a Quickened Arcane Fusion would grant 6. If you mix it with the ability to create a Time Stop effect, it can keep increasing before the enemy ever gets the chance to act. By 20th level, easily above 6.


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## Squire James (Apr 29, 2007)

I think the spells that grant extra actions shouldn't really count.  None of them are helping you or hurting the enemy, and are thus pointless.  How many non-pointless spells can you cast in a round?


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## Victim (Apr 29, 2007)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> Hmm, when you get 9th level spells, you could memorize a twinned _arcane fusion_ spell...that up the possibilities quite a bit.  Haven't seen _celerity_...I'll have to find someone with a PH2 and look it up.




Arcane Fusion is tough to memorize, since it's sorcerer only.  Doable with the right feats though - and Arcane Prep is another way to use quickened spells as a sorc.

Celerity is level 4, casts as an immediate action, grants an extra standard action, and then dazes you for a round.  There are level 2 and 8 versions granting a move action and full round action respectively.

The total gets really high with Time Stop effects, especially if you don't mind having to use Delayed spells (or spells that don't directly affect foes).

White Raven Tactics grants you a whole extra turn as a swift action, so for a swift action to activate the boost, you gain another swift action plus a normal one.  Broken though.



> I think the spells that grant extra actions shouldn't really count. None of them are helping you or hurting the enemy, and are thus pointless. How many non-pointless spells can you cast in a round?




Who was counting those spells as part of the total?


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## Fedifensor (Apr 29, 2007)

Squire James said:
			
		

> I think the spells that grant extra actions shouldn't really count.  None of them are helping you or hurting the enemy, and are thus pointless.  How many non-pointless spells can you cast in a round?



Agreed.  _Celerity_ shouldn't count as one of the spells, but by giving you a standard action it can allow you to cast another spell which would count...

[EDIT] My original intent was only to count spells that could be thrown directly at an enemy, but it would be interesting to see what _time stop_ does to the totals...


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## Gerion of Mercadia (Apr 29, 2007)

Answer = Infinitely many.

Time Stop X 3 + Metamagic Maximize spell rod = 15 rounds of action instantaneously.

2 of these rounds will be needed to cast TimeStop again... so you could get 15 quickened spells +13 Non Quickened spells off simultaneously.

Why? That requires a virtual dissertation in theoretical D&D metaphysics.


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## Sejs (Apr 29, 2007)

Cast _Time Stop_.  Make liberal use of the Delay Spell metamagic feat.

Bam.  Many, many spells in ... apparently one round.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (Apr 29, 2007)

Actually, if you want to be real technical about the spell's actual effect, you don't need delay spell of necessity - even for the fireball type effects.

Under a direct reading of the Time Stop's "effect" you and your gear, as well as effects operating on you speed up so quickly that the rest of the world appears to "stop" in mid motion.  In short, you are moving at near light speed.  The quantum Mechanical effects of the experience are somewhat difficult to describe... but this is what comes out in consequence:


A spell cast while time stopped simply can't go "off" until your time stop ends - even if the spell is targeted on you.

If I use the metamagic combo above... for Quickened Time Stop 1

I could put 4 "fireball" spells,  5 quickened fireballs and "Maximized Time Stop 2" into effect; but I can't actually roll damage dice or inflict saves until the END of Time Stop 1.  The spells will appear to "hang" in midair as soon as they cease to be in "contact" with the caster as the spell is an object "released" from your person upon casting.

In all WOTC published settings, the "Weave" and "Shadow Weave" must be tapped for a spell to function - therefore even a spell targeted on your person would be unable to achieve its effect until AFTER Time Stop 1 ends.  As Time Stop 1 ended, Time Stop 2 would "come into effect" - and I would get another 5 "virtual" rounds.

In the event of a feat or event such as "Spell Stowaway" a Twinned spell... or a Time Stop that affected more than 1 "creature" (such as a wizard and her familiar) BOTH creatures are accelerated simultaneously.  This causes some unusual effects.


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## Victim (Apr 29, 2007)

I seem to recall a change in wording from 3.0 to 3.5 that prevents that use of Time Stop.  Before durations didn't count while in the Time Stop.  Instantaneous is still a duration.  Now the text doesn't mentions that durations are paused, so your effects will still resolve in the middle of the time stop (while everyone is invulnerable).


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## James McMurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Metamorphic Transfer + an item of Metamorphosis can get you a Choker's extra action. 

Schism can get you an extra mental action, which could be used for spell-like abilities from Archmage levels. 

Fission gets you another you, which can cast spells, use metamorphic transfer, etc. 

Shapechange can also get you the Choker's extra action, but your Fission can't cast it as early as he can use metamorphosis.

There's a psion power whose name escapes me that lets you basically borrow your next turn so you take two full turns and then skip one.

If you're looking for extra actions, psionics is the way to go.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (Apr 29, 2007)

Directly from the SRD Time Stop:



> Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text
> This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. *A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.* Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
> You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.
> You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.




In their brilliant attempt to "fix" Time Stop, they said to see the text for the ACTUAL duration of the spell... and then never give it a duration.    Brilliant!!!   

Therefore, to be technical, by RAW 3.5 ... the darn thing has a duration of "nothing", and to those still stuck in normal time, it sure the hell will appear that way.

Since Something > Nothing, any spell with a duration at all (even instantaneous) resolves *once the time stop ends*.

The 3.5 wording merely made targeting creatures an ABSOLUTE No No whereas in 3.0 you may have been able to "get away with it" by RAW.

Now, RAI spellcasters are supposed to use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat, not hose their opponents.


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## taliesin15 (Apr 29, 2007)

Surprised nobody's brought up the use of a Haste potion...


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## Fedifensor (Apr 29, 2007)

Okay.  So, *NOT* counting Time Stop (which apparently brings about the infinite spell syndrome), how many spells can be cast against foes in a single round?


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## Mort (Apr 29, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> Directly from the SRD Time Stop:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




sorry for the brief hijack, but unless I'm missing something I just don't see the confusion.

wording = A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.

time stop lasts 1d4+1 rounds, so: area spells with less duration than that run out before it ends and effectively have no effect (this obviously includes any instantaneous spells). Area spells with a duration greater than that (cloudkill, evards, properly worded delayed blast fireball) extend  beyond the duration. What's unclear?

On the original point:

Have someone in the group use White Raven Tactics (Bo9S) or be a jade phoenix mage and do it yourself. Doubles the number of spells in just about any combo.


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## Mort (Apr 29, 2007)

taliesin15 said:
			
		

> Surprised nobody's brought up the use of a Haste potion...




How would that increase # of spells per round in 3.5?


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 29, 2007)

A Sorcerer can cast an infinite amount of spells in 1 round, using a certain combo of feats/spells/magic items from certain books.  It also requires you to be very high level too.

ARCANE NOVA

First you need the following



			
				Complete Mage said:
			
		

> *Greater Arcane Fusion*
> When you cast this spell, choose any 4st-level or lower sorcerer spell you know and any 7th level or lower sorcerer spell you know. Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 std. action.
> 
> .
> ...






			
				Spell Compendium said:
			
		

> *Absorption*
> 9th level sor/wiz; 10 mins/level until expended
> (blue text is paraphrased, black is quoted)
> 
> ...




*The Trick*

Feats required: Arcane Thesis (Greater Arcane Fusion), Practical Metamagic (Twin), Twin Spell, Maximize spell, Arcane Thesis (Absorption), Sanctum Spell, Cooperative Metamagic, practical metamagic (maximize).
Caster level required: 18 (for a sorcerer).

Two main spells will be cast: 
1. _Sanctum Cooperative Twinned Maximized Absorption_: This spell is considered an 8th level spell outside of one's sanctum and we assume that we are outside our sanctum for this trick. Due to metamagic the casting time is one full round action. It occupies a 10th level spell slot to cast [9 (normal spell level) + 4 (twin) -1 (arcane thesis) -1 (practical metamagic) + 0 (Cooperative) -1 (arcane thesis) +0 (Sanctum) -1 (arcane thesis) + 3 maximize -1 (arcane thesis) - 1 (practical metamagic)]. I hope to bring this back down to a 9th level slot. For now we'll just have to assume that your character either has 1 10th level spell slot available or has a rod of maximize on hand. You really only need to cast this spell once by yourself.
2. _Sanctum Cooperative Twinned Greater Arcane Fusion_: This spell is considered a 7th level spell outside of one's sanctum and we assume that we are outside our santum for this trick. Due to the metamagic the casting time is one full round action. It occupies an 8th level spell slot to cast [8 (normal spell level) + 4 (twin) -1 (arcane thesis) -1 (practical metamagic) + 0 (Cooperative) -1 (arcane thesis) +0 (Sanctum) -1 (arcane thesis)]


Cast Arcane Spellsurge: if you are dragonblooded (easy to get these days) you can cast this as a swift action.
Cast favor of the martyr: This renders you immune to the dazed condition, among other things.
Cast _cooperative sanctum maximized twinned absorption_ (takes 1 std. action with arcane spell surge and rapid spell). I will call one of these absorptions "Absorption 1" and the other will be "Absorption 2".
Cast sanctum twinned greater arcane fusion (takes 1 std. action with arcane spellsurge on)
7th or lower: twinned cooperative sanctum fifth level std. action ranged spell of your choice and target yourself. All of it is absorbed (10 levels in Absorption 1). When selecting spells this is an eligable spell (std. action, below 7th level). You apply metamagic when casting. For those who are picky, this still consumes a 5th level slot, so I'm not abusing the "free metamagic" concept. If you don't have a problem with the free metamagic concept, you can remove the sanctum and cooperative bit.
4th or lower: Twinned sanctum cooperative Orb of acid. All of it is absorbed into Absorption 2. You now have 8 absorbed levels in Absorption 2. When selecting spells for arcane fusion this is an eligable spell (std. action, 4th level or below). You apply metamagic when casting.
7th level or lower: output spell. You can output any spell you wish and target anyone you like with this spell. Have fun. Why not add twin and cooperative to these bad boys while you're at it? They'll consume 9th level slots... but wait a minute, you don't lose any spell slots when casting the sub-spells of arcane fusion. Heh heh.
4th level or lower: twinned sanctum cooperative celerity. You don't actually use up an immediate action to do this, as it is subsumed in the casting of arcane fusion (per RAW). That means you can cast this more than once per round. You gain 2 std. actions. You're immune to the daze, so there are no side effects.
Use one std. action to cast another sanctum cooperative twinned maximized absorption. In doing so you have expended one of your already active absorptions. You now have 2 empty absorptions and 1 filled, and 1 partially filled. It's unlikely that we'll ever use those partially filled ones in this sequence. But feel free to burn them up afterwards.
Use the other std. action gained two steps previous to do, you guessed it, cast a twinned sanctum cooperative arcane fusion. You cast this via the 8 spell levels you had absorbed into Absorption 2. You now have 2 partially filled, and 2 empty absorptions. Go back to the beginning of this subsequence to fill up the 2 empty absorptions. In the end you will have 2n partially filled absorptions active on your person. These will allow you to cast 2n second level spells and 2n first level spells.


The bi-products of this magical nova: you end up with 22n 7th level or lower spells. You also gain 23n temporary spell levels quantized in 2 level chunks and 1 level chunks. I think you can only use the temp levels of one spell at a time, so no multi-sourcing. Oh well, having a bunch of 2nd and 1st level spells on hand is nice. And by a bunch I mean infinity. There's nothing which prevents this loop from setting n equal to infinity. The nice thing? You can stop it early if you want. No matter what, it'll still only take 1 std. action once the whole loops starts up.

*A Sample Build*​Silver Brow Human (from RoD): Dragonblood Sorcerer 4/Cleric 1 (magic, planning)/Dweomer Keeper 10/Loremaster 5
(Assume at least 16 int)
Feats: 
1. (Maximize Spell), Cooperative Metamagic, (Dragon Heritage (Pick a flavor))
3. craft wonderous item
5. (Extend Spell)
6. Practical Metamagic (Mazimize)
9. Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana)
12. Twin Spell
15. Practical Metamagic (Twin)
18. Arcane Thesis (Greater Arcane Fusion)
20. Arcane Thesis (Absorption)

_note_: This build requires a scroll of favor of the martyr. Also, this character need not a 10th level spell slot to cast the metamagiced absorption, thanks to dweomerkeeper.

_note2_: There is a similiar build to this out there, that you can pull this off at lower level, but you are limited to the amount of spells you have.  If I have time, I'll see if I can dig it up.


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## Fedifensor (Apr 29, 2007)

Okay, here's my go at it:

1 to 4 spell using a standard or full-round action (extra spell via Twin Spell, _arcane fusion_, or both)
+1 to 4 spells using a standard action (Action Surge plus one of the methods listed above)
+1 to 2 spells using a swift action (Quicken spell, or _spell matrix_ for two 2nd level spells)
fusion[/I])
+1 to 4 spell using an immediate action as soon as your turn ends (via _celerity_, but you are dazed next round)

So, here's what you need for X spells per round:
* Sorcerer with Rapid Metamagic class feature from PH2
* Spells:  _Spell matrix_ (Sor/Wiz 7, Spell Compendium), _arcane fusion_ (Sor/Wiz 5), 
* Feats:  Twin Spell, Action Surge
* Prepare before combat with _spell matrix_, storing 2 2nd level spells
* Start combat by releasing the _spell matrix_ as a swift action, releasing two 2nd level spells.
* Cast twinned _arcane fusion_ to fire 2 4th and 2 1st level spells.
* Spend 2 AP to gain a standard action, cast twinned _arcane fusion_ again for 2 4th and 2 1st level spells.
* Cast _celerity_ as soon as your turn ends for another twinned _arcane fusion_, firing 2 4th and 2 1st level spells.

Total output:  6 4th, 2 2nd, and 6 1st level spells (14 spells total)
Cost in spell slots:  3 9th, 1 7th, 1 4th, 2 2nd

Granted, they're low-level spells, but even the lowly glitterdust can severely hinder several combatants at once.  And you can force up to 14 saving throws in round 1...

[EDIT]_Arcane fusion_ is a 4th and a 1st, not a 3rd and a 1st.


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## pallandrome (Apr 29, 2007)

I'll be a cheezy bastard for this one. *grin*

Jump off a tall cliff. use 60 some-odd immediate actions to cast feather fall over and over again. Laugh maniacally. Works best with a high level sorcerer with a lot of  bonus spells.


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## shilsen (Apr 29, 2007)

If you use an immediate action, you cannot use another one until your next turn (or after it, if you used an immediate action when not your turn).


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## Fedifensor (Apr 29, 2007)

Okay, looks like RigaMortus2 has won this one, though I haven't had the time to check all the stuff he used (heck, I don't know which books he pulled some of it from!).  I can at least be consoled that my version can be done with less of a feat expenditure, though...

Just for fun, here's a version of my current character (though higher level) tricked out for single-target carnage.  Spells are from Spell Compendium and Complete Mage.

Sorcerer 14/Cleric 1/Silver Pyromancer 5
Spells Needed:  _Spell matrix_, _arcane fusion_, _orb of fire_, _scorching ray_, _lesser orb of fire_.
Feats needed:  Twin spell, rapid metamagic, action surge

2 scorching rays fired from a _spell matrix_ (swift action) - 6 touch attacks of 4d6 sacred damage each
Twinned _arcane fusion_ firing 2 _orbs of fire_ and 2 _lesser orbs of fire_ - 4 touch attacks (2 for 15d6 sacred damage, 2 for 5d8 sacred damage)
Spend 2 AP to gain a standard action, using the action to cast twinned _arcane fusion_ firing 2 _orbs of fire_ and 2 _lesser orbs of fire_ - 4 touch attacks (2 for 15d6 sacred damage, 2 for 5d8 sacred damage)
Cast _celerity_ as soon as your turn ends, gaining another standard action to cast twinned arcane fusion, firing 2 _orbs of fire_ and 2 _lesser orbs of fire_ - 4 touch attacks (2 for 15d6 sacred damage, 2 for 5d8 sacred damage)

Total potential damage is 114d6+30d8 sacred damage (excluding misses or crits), or average damage of 534.  90d6+20d8 of that ignores SR, and all of it ignores elemental resistances.  Plus, the target has to make 6 Fort saves (DC 22 each) or be dazed for one round.  I could probably increase this with a few more feats - Improved Critical (ray) actually becomes a good choice for this character.


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## pallandrome (Apr 29, 2007)

shilsen said:
			
		

> If you use an immediate action, you cannot use another one until your next turn (or after it, if you used an immediate action when not your turn).




Well just shoot my plan in the foot why dontcha?


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 29, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> 4th or lower: Twinned sanctum cooperative Orb of acid.




This isn't a 'spell that has you as a target'.  Or anyone else, for that matter.  It creates an effect.

For what it's worth, the FAQ has this to say about Arcane Thesis:
*If a character with Arcane Thesis (Player’s Handbook
II, 74) applies multiple metamagic feats to the chosen spell,
is the spell’s slot reduced by one level, or by one level per
metamagic feat applied?*

_Arcane Thesis reduces the total spell level of a metamagic-affected
spell by one, regardless of the number of metamagic
feats applied. An empowered (+2 levels), still (+1 level), silent
(+1 level) fireball would be 6th level._

-Hyp.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (Apr 29, 2007)

@ Mort - let me show you what I think you miseed.



> *time stop lasts 1d4+1 rounds,* so: area spells with less duration than that run out before it ends and effectively have no effect (this obviously includes any instantaneous spells). Area spells with a duration greater than that (cloudkill, evards, properly worded delayed blast fireball) extend beyond the duration. What's unclear?




The part in bold is wrong.  If Time Stop has a duration of "1d4+1 Rounds" - I can extend the thing for 2d4+2 rounds. It doesn't work that way 


The Actual Duration line reads:

*Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time);* see text

For the caster, the duration _appears_ to be 1d4+1 rounds for those not recieving the benefits of the spell, the spell effect begins and ends faster than they can so much as blink.


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## Storyteller01 (Apr 29, 2007)

Using 3.0 and an OGL source, 4 per round.


Using a sorcerer, Quicken Spell,  and mongoose's Artillerist PrC:
- It reduces the casting time with metamagic feats to one round.
- The last level 'Re-ignite' ability allows you to recast a previous evoction (cast within one round) for half effect as a move action. Uses the same level spell per day slot.


Cast 3.0 Haste (there's another version somewhere in 3.5). You then get one quickened, two standard, and one recast as a move action.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 29, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> The part in bold is wrong.  If Time Stop has a duration of "1d4+1 Rounds" - I can extend the thing for 2d4+2 rounds. It doesn't work that way




Why not?  The duration is not concentration, permanent, or instantaneous, so the feat is not prohibited from applying.

Extend Spell makes the spell last twice as long, which means the spell effect begins and ends faster than they can so much as blink _twice_.

You're sped up for twice as long as you would be with a non-Extended Time Stop.

-Hyp.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (Apr 29, 2007)

> For what it's worth, the FAQ has this to say about Arcane Thesis:
> If a character with Arcane Thesis (Player’s Handbook
> II, 74) applies multiple metamagic feats to the chosen spell,
> is the spell’s slot reduced by one level, or by one level per
> ...




Arcane Thesis in combination with Improved Metamagic[epic] work together however, so if the character had IMP Metamagic X1 , the above spell is fifth   Can't get it any lower without automatic silent and still spell.

Looks like you need some more feats to get an "infinite spells" combo, but it's still workable.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (Apr 29, 2007)

> Why not? The duration is not concentration, permanent, or instantaneous, so the feat is not prohibited from applying.




Right, the actual duration is "null"



> Extend Spell makes the spell last twice as long, which means the spell effect begins and ends faster than they can so much as blink twice.
> 
> You're sped up for twice as long as you would be with a non-Extended Time Stop.




Twice "null" is still "null" in a similar fashion that 2 x 0 = 0.

Legally, you could apply extend spell - but you still can't double nothing.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 29, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> Right, the actual duration is "null"




Source?  From here, the actual duration looks to me like 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text.

You are sped up, per the text of the spell.  If your speed is not infinite, your actions still take some fraction of their normal time to complete.  If your speed _is_ infinite, there is no limit to the number of apparent rounds you could take.  Since there is, after all, a limit, it means your speed is not infinite, and therefore despite moving incredibly fast, your actions still take some miniscule amount of real time... and Extend Spell will double that miniscule amount.

And since an Instantaneous spell comes and goes in the instant the spell is cast, it takes less time that Time Stop, so it will still occur before your apparent time counts down.

-Hyp.


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## Mort (Apr 30, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> @ Mort - let me show you what I think you miseed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hypersmurf is correct. The part that matters is that for *you* the duration is 1d4+1 rounds (and therefore can be extended if you can manage 10th level spells or reduce the cost of extend). It's not relevant whether you are moving quickly or everything else is moving slowly. Since this duration applies to *you* it also applies to any any spells you cast.

 Ruling any other way seems to 1) go against the intent and RAW and more importantly 2) adds a completely unecessary level of complication that can be completely avoided.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (Apr 30, 2007)

> Source? From here, the actual duration looks to me like 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); *see text.*




Ok, it says See Text - where in the text does it SPECIFY what the actual duration is?



> This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. *You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.* Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
> You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.
> You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.




The bolded part is the effect or RESULT, not the Duration.   



> You are sped up, per the text of the spell.  (given)
> If your speed is not infinite, your actions still take some fraction of their normal time to complete. (Einstein Relativity Theorem)
> 
> _Since there is, after all, a limit, it means your speed is not infinite,_
> ...




Italics Does not Follow as "Time" is not "Matter/energy".  However, you also do not need it to draw your conuclusion.

You are right Hyp, - but Applying extend spell (relativity) would SLOW you - not accelerate you.  Instead of taking X to do 1d4+1 rounds of actions you now take 2X to do 1d4+1 rounds, and 2X > X.  *The problem is, I can't quantify that X, the text left it "undefined".*

Btw - If you insert "infinite" for the number 2 in that, the "result" is Temporal Stasis.  IMHO, they should counterspell one another.    They don't however, I have to house rule it that way.

If I wanted to get more "bang" out of that 1d4+1 ... I could "empower" the deal and get 1d4+1 +1d2 rounds.  At best I could Intensify the thing, and get 10 rounds.  Of course, I would be using a 16th or 17th level spell slot to do that (depending on if intensify adds 7 or 8 levels).


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## Fedifensor (Apr 30, 2007)

The whole _time stop_ debate is why I avoided the spell in my build...


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## Diirk (Apr 30, 2007)

> This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. *You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.* Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. *A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop* have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
> You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a *creature stuck in normal time*, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.
> You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.




From the various bolded segments, it is clear that the effect of the spell is to remove you from the normal stream of time for a duration of 1d4+1 rounds for you (and any spells you cast), or but a moment for anyone else who is not affected.

If you disagree, then clearly a true strike cast on the first round of a time stop will persist until after time stop ends, as its duration (1 round) is greater than the remaining duration of the time stop (the blink of an eye or whatever). I don't think this is the case.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 30, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> If I wanted to get more "bang" out of that 1d4+1 ... I could "empower" the deal and get 1d4+1 +1d2 rounds.




(1d4+1) x 1.5.



			
				Diirk said:
			
		

> If you disagree, then clearly a true strike cast on the first round of a time stop will persist until after time stop ends, as its duration (1 round) is greater than the remaining duration of the time stop (the blink of an eye or whatever).




True Strike isn't a spell that affects an area.

-Hyp.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (Apr 30, 2007)

Mort said:
			
		

> Hypersmurf is correct. The part that matters is that for you the duration is 1d4+1 rounds (and therefore can be extended if you can manage 10th level spells or reduce the cost of extend).




So what you just said is that if I apply Extend spell to Time stop, I get 2d4+2 rounds of action?

I don't think Hyp agrees with you;



			
				Self said:
			
		

> If I wanted to get more "bang" out of that 1d4+1 ... I could "empower" the deal and get 1d4+1 +1d2 rounds.






			
				Hyp said:
			
		

> (1d4+1) x 1.5.




I think the text is self contradictory here.



			
				SRD Empower spell said:
			
		

> Benefit: All *variable, numeric* effects of an empowered spell are increased by one half.




The example of magic missile that follows has a "variable component" and then a "constant component" in its calculation (at least probability wise).

(1d4+1) x 1.5 = {3,4,5, or 7}
1d4+1d2 +1 = {3,4,5,6 or 7}

The bolded part supports my position, and the very next sentence and example support Hyp.  Am I missing something real basic with D&D multiplication/rounding here?


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## javcs (Apr 30, 2007)

1d4+1 is both variable and numeric.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (Apr 30, 2007)

the 1d4 is variable and numeric.

the +1 is numeric, but not variable.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 30, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> the 1d4 is variable and numeric.
> 
> the +1 is numeric, but not variable.




The variable numeric effect of a Magic Missile is how much damage it deals.  It doesn't deal a variable amount of damage in the range 1 to 4, and also a constant amount of damage equal to 1; it deals a variable amount of damage in the range 2 to 5.

The variable numeric effect - a number of points of damage in the range 2 to 5 - is multiplied by 1.5.

The text and the example agree.



> So what you just said is that if I apply Extend spell to Time stop, I get 2d4+2 rounds of action?
> 
> I don't think Hyp agrees with you;




Sure I do.  The duration doubles.

-Hyp.


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## IanB (Apr 30, 2007)

Whatever ends up winning, it can probably get even more spells cast if you add "being a spellweaver" to the solution.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (Apr 30, 2007)

Ok - so an Extended, Maximized Time Stop = 10 rounds of actions...

And an Intensified Time Stop = 10 rounds of actions ...

The former combination adds a mere 4 levels, where the latter is adding more than that.  If the two non-epic feats are yielding a "greater" result than the epic feat (which has 2 non-epic prereqs IIRC) It would seem that SOMETHING is wrong with this picture. What?



> Duration: 1d4+1 rounds *(apparent time); see text*




What the heck does the bold part mean?  If the duration were 1d4+1 rounds ... why even write it? Does it contain any meaning at all whatsoever?


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 30, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> The former combination adds a mere 4 levels, where the latter is adding more than that.  If the two non-epic feats are yielding a "greater" result than the epic feat (which has 2 non-epic prereqs IIRC) It would seem that SOMETHING is wrong with this picture. What?




Nothing's wrong with the picture.

It's not often that a spell has a variable duration which can be affected by Maximize Spell (or Intensify Spell).  Intensify Spell is priced for its effect on most spells, where the variable numeric effect is something like damage.  It happens that its a poor bargain when the variable numeric effect is duration.  That doesn't mean anything's wrong.

Similarly, if I had to choose between Empowering (+2 levels) or Maximizing (+3 levels) my False Life spell, I'll pick Empower - an average of 23 temporary hit points vs a guaranteed 20 (assuming CL 10 or higher).  Does that mean something's wrong with the picture?  Not at all; it simply means that sometimes the lower-level option is more applicable to the situation.

If there are a dozen goblins coming at you, would you rather cast Fireball (3rd level spell) or Energy Drain (9th level spell)?  If you chose Fireball, does that mean there's something wrong with the picture?

-Hyp.


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## Diirk (Apr 30, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> What the heck does the bold part mean?  If the duration were 1d4+1 rounds ... why even write it? Does it contain any meaning at all whatsoever?




It means that the duration is 1d4+1 rounds from the caster's perspective; however in reality, virtually no time has passed at all, so from the perspective of other people no rounds have elapsed. Its just a clarification on how the duration seems different depending on whether the spell effects you or not.

And my bad on the true strike, I was just trying to think of a spell with a short duration for an example. A delayed blast fireball set for 1 round, then.


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## Jemal (Apr 30, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> the 1d4 is variable and numeric.
> 
> the +1 is numeric, but not variable.




This has been dealt with before, by Wizards.

An Empowered Magic Missile officially deals (1d4+1)X1.5 per missile.
Empowered CUre Light Wounds heals (1d8+5)X1.5, etc, etc.

Any numbers added with the dice are variable numeric effects.  This even includes the Warmage's Int mod to damage when applied to spells that deal damage, or the +1/die of the Argent Savant.  

The Variable numeric effect of a Magic Missile is "2-5" per missile, not "1-4 per missile, and then after you roll add an additional 1 per misile".
One step, not two.


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## Jemal (Apr 30, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> Ok - so an Extended, Maximized Time Stop = 10 rounds of actions...




You can't "Extend" or "Persistant" a time stop.  It doesn't have a "real" duration, just "apparent time" as viewed by the caster.  You could maximize, empower, intensify, etc it, however, b/c the 1d4+1 is a variable numeric effect.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 30, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> You can't "Extend" or "Persistant" a time stop.  It doesn't have a "real" duration, just "apparent time" as viewed by the caster.




You can't Extend a spell with a duration of Instantaneous, Permanent, or Concentration.

Time Stop's duration is not Instantaneous, Permanent, or Concentration.

-Hyp.


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## Fedifensor (May 2, 2007)

Well, if Time Stop gives you subjective time, techically you are casting those spells over multiple rounds...


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## Gerion of Mercadia (May 2, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> You can't "Extend" or "Persistant" a time stop. It doesn't have a "real" duration, just "apparent time" as viewed by the caster. You could maximize, empower, intensify, etc it, however, b/c the 1d4+1 is a variable numeric effect.




Agreed, I stated that the duration was "undefined" or "null", and people didn't seem to like the "rules" consequences of that choice with regards to instantaneous effects specifically:

Since [something > nothing] & [instantaneous > "null"



			
				srd said:
			
		

> A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.




= Fireballs go off at end of time stop's effect.



			
				Diirk said:
			
		

> It means that the duration is 1d4+1 rounds from the caster's perspective; however in reality, virtually no time has passed at all, so from the perspective of other people no rounds have elapsed. Its just a clarification on how the duration seems different depending on whether the spell effects you or not.



 
...and so the "real" duration of time stop that I use to apply metamagic feats, D&D rules ect is?



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> This has been dealt with before, by Wizards.
> 
> An Empowered Magic Missile officially deals (1d4+1)X1.5 per missile.
> Empowered CUre Light Wounds heals (1d8+5)X1.5, etc, etc.






			
				Gerion said:
			
		

> The bolded part supports my position, and the very next sentence and example support Hyp. Am I missing something real basic with D&D multiplication/rounding here?




I figured I was doing something in there D@D specific that was wrong. The calculation is one function, and then applying empower is the "second step".  That's what I get for thinking algebraically late at night after working 16 hours.   



			
				Hyp said:
			
		

> If there are a dozen goblins coming at you, would you rather cast Fireball (3rd level spell) or Energy Drain (9th level spell)? If you chose Fireball, does that mean there's something wrong with the picture?




If I am fighting goblins (CR 1/3?) and have access to Energy Drain (minimum 17th level caster) I think something is wrong, from a metagame perspective, don't you?  Do they have 10 levels of barbarian or something?



			
				IanB said:
			
		

> Whatever ends up winning, it can probably get even more spells cast if you add "being a spellweaver" to the solution.




Agreed if it is a finite number.  However if the answer is "Infinite"... 



> Well, if Time Stop gives you subjective time, techically you are casting those spells over multiple rounds...




If you have "subjective" time; you aren't in the same "space/time" dimension as your target point in space... and it would think that line of effect would be slightly problematic.


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> Agreed, I stated that the duration was "undefined" or "null", and people didn't seem to like the "rules" consequences of that choice with regards to instantaneous effects specifically:




The duration is neither undefined nor null; it is 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text.



> If I am fighting goblins (CR 1/3?) and have access to Energy Drain (minimum 17th level caster) I think something is wrong, from a metagame perspective, don't you?  Do they have 10 levels of barbarian or something?




I think something's wrong from a metagame perspective if you assume that every encounter will always be tailored to your level.

If a bunch of goblins are preying on travellers along a certain road, and they don't know you're 17th level, isn't it appropriate for them to prey on you, the traveller?

-Hyp.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (May 2, 2007)

If I am 17th level, I am NOT travelling along a road - I am flying my hippogriff(at worst) - or preferrably, My roc Warbeast.

If there might be a security problem at base camp... teleporting without error.
Heck, I might just be able to fly magically unaided.


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> If I am 17th level, I am NOT travelling along a road - I am flying my hippogriff(at worst) - or preferrably, My roc Warbeast.
> 
> If there might be a security problem at base camp... teleporting without error.
> Heck, I might just be able to fly magically unaided.




If you're not capable of imagining a scenario where a 17th level caster might face goblins, let's make it a 13th level caster facing a dozen hobgoblins instead.  (And if you can't picture that, have a look at the battle in progress in the Order of the Stick.)

Fireball or Disintegrate?

-Hyp.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (May 2, 2007)

> The duration is neither undefined nor null; it is 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text.




Ok -



> This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. *You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.* Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
> You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.
> You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.




That is the "text" ... the bolded portion indicates that I am free to act for the *equivalent* of 1d4+1 rounds.  However, those rounds aren't "really" there.  The spell is cast on ME.  The rest of the world is still moving, but I am at "super-speed", so fast that it visually looks like everyone else is "frozen" in mid action.  In the Normal time stream - how much "time" passes?  It doesn't say.

Hmm, experiment!!!!

Required Materials:
6 Stopwatches, synchronized.
1 Time Stop Spell; Maximized.
1 Measuring string
Nearby Windmill in motion.

1. Set Stopwatch at base of windmill (stopwatch G)
- Cast Timestop (windmill will visually "stop moving") and Hustle
2. Have stopwatch on My person (Stopwatch A)
3. Have stopwatch set 30 feet away (Stopwatch B)
4. Have stopwatch set 60 feet away (Stopwatch C)
5. Have stopwatch set 90 feet away (Stopwatch D)
6. Have Stopwatch set 120 feet away (stopwatch E)
7. Have Stopwatch set 150 feet away (stopwatch F)
- Time Stop - End (windmill will visually "resume motion")
8. Pick up stopwatch set at base of windmill (Stopwatch G)
Cast TimeStop
Pick up watches in letter order, from A to G.
Record Difference in times shown, if any from stopwatch A to G.

What is the result of each stopwatch?


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## Nail (May 2, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> In the Normal time stream - how much "time" passes?  It doesn't say.



It's not relevant.

Your spell durarations are the times that are relevant.  You are under the effects of Time Stop for 1d4+1 rounds.  If your spells last longer than that, they are capable of affecting those around you.


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> That is the "text" ... the bolded portion indicates that I am free to act for the *equivalent* of 1d4+1 rounds.




Right.  And when we cast an Area spell, we compare the duration (say Instantaneous, for a fireball) to the remaining duration of the Time Stop (say 3 rounds (apparent time)).

Instantaneous is apparently less than 3 rounds, so apparently the Fireball is already gone by the time the Time Stop expires.

-Hyp.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (May 2, 2007)

PHB 176 said:
			
		

> Duration:
> A spell's duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.




Duration = How long the magical energy sustains itself in the game world?

Pretty explicit -

Experiment for determination?
"Equivalent", In the context I intend to use it, does not necessarily mean "equal" sign.

The experiment above is what I propose to use to determine the difference, if any between the following.

1d4+1 rounds ___ 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time).

If no difference were observed in the stopwatches, then 1d4+1 rounds = 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time).

If differential is observed; then 1d4+1 rounds =\ 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time).


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> If no difference were observed in the stopwatches, then 1d4+1 rounds = 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time).




The fireball is on your stopwatch.  And its duration is instantaneous - on your stopwatch, it takes up no time at all - it comes and goes in the same instant.

-Hyp.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (May 2, 2007)

> The fireball is on your stopwatch. And its duration is instantaneous - on your stopwatch, it takes up no time at all - it comes and goes in the same instant.




The fireball is an object that, once cast, I am not attending as the fireball has neither a wisdom nor charisma score.  It has My stopwatch at the moment of casting and acquires the other stopwatches as it is released.

If I had a "grenade" with a 3 round fuse - cast Time Stop, Pull the pin, set it down on the ground, and walk 10 feet away, will it go off and fill me with shrapnel before or after the time stop ends?


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> The fireball is an object...




It's not an object at all.  It's a spell.



> If I had a "grenade" with a 3 round fuse - cast Time Stop, Pull the pin, set it down on the ground, and walk 10 feet away, will it go off and fill me with shrapnel before or after the time stop ends?




I'd say before.  If you pulled the pin before casting Time Stop, it would be after.  But you brought it into bullet time with you when you cast the spell.

-Hyp.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (May 2, 2007)

Hyp said:
			
		

> It's not an object at all. It's a spell.




www.wizards.com

Under Nonabilites in the glossary you will find the following:



			
				D&D Online Glossary said:
			
		

> Charisma: Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. *Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.*




A Fireball has no Charisma Score.  A fireball is therefore, by definition, an object.  I would appreciate a civil retraction of the statement; but have come not to expect one from you.

An item not in my posession is "unattended", and therefore not of necessity under the infleuence of a spell in effect on My person, or regulated by similar effects.  Under Time Stop, we see a clear example of this:



			
				Time Stop Spell said:
			
		

> You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> A Fireball has no Charisma Score.




Neither is it a thing.

"Each object has hardness - a number that represents how well it resists damage."

"An object's hit point total depends on what it is made of and how big it is.  When an object's hit points reach 0, it's ruined."

Has a fireball hardness?  Hit points?

-Hyp.


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## Darklone (May 2, 2007)

Anything with no Charisma score is an object.... 

Hehehe. And all cats have three tails. Niels Bohr.


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## Drowbane (May 2, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> the 1d4 is variable and numeric.
> 
> the +1 is numeric, but not variable.




1d4+1 = a random number that varies from 2-5.  Thus, numeric and variable.


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## Gerion of Mercadia (May 2, 2007)

> "Each object has hardness - a number that represents how well it resists damage."
> 
> "An object's hit point total depends on what it is made of and how big it is. When an object's hit points reach 0, it's ruined."
> 
> Has a fireball hardness? Hit points?




Hmm.... lets see.  How well does a fireball resist damage... infinitely well?  Just like a Wall of Force... or The Air... or a Soul... Well, maybe not a soul, because of Solars and the like...

Is it an object you can damage only with elemental cold perhaps?

Complete absence of any rules one way or the other in that regard.  Does it have the trait?  Probably does if that line is in a definition.  Too bad it comes from pg 165...  Such things are so situational then.  In those cases, as long as you don't do something contradictory, I guess its cool... or flaming hot depending on your perspective.



			
				Hyp said:
			
		

> Neither is it (fireball) a thing.




Now where the heck did THAT come from?  



> Hehehe. And all cats have three tails. Niels Bohr.




     

Hey, *I* Didn't write that statement - it's there, and its written as an absolute.


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> Now where the heck did THAT come from?




Because it's _things_ that aren't creatures that are objects.

If you take that to mean "Any concept that can be represented by a noun", where does it stop?  Is Love an object?  Is an evil aura?  Is a Paladin's Code of Conduct?  Is the Sound of One Hand Clapping?  A somatic component?

-Hyp.


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## hong (May 2, 2007)

Gerion of Mercadia said:
			
		

> A Fireball has no Charisma Score.  A fireball is therefore, by definition, an object.  I would appreciate a civil retraction of the statement; but have come not to expect one from you.
> 
> An item not in my posession is "unattended", and therefore not of necessity under the infleuence of a spell in effect on My person, or regulated by similar effects.




D00d, just because you refer to yourself in caps, doesn't make it the god-given truth.

You're this guy, aren't you?

http://www.enworld.org/member.php?u=3940


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## Gerion of Mercadia (May 2, 2007)

> If you take that to mean "Any concept that can be represented by a noun"




I'm not intending to do that.  I also don't intend to assign hardness and hitponts to anything that lacks a charisma score either.  The list would be endless.

You keep evading and ducking each and every question by throwing up a nother diverting question.  Others have stopped reading... it's been nearly 10 posts...

Enough is enough.


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> You're this guy, aren't you?




Huh.  Same birthday.

Well spotted.

-Hyp.


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