# How Expensive is Too Expensive?



## unknowable (Sep 13, 2019)

I passed on invisible sun because its price was high to what I personally value from a RPG product. But I can respect it.

Then we get artifically limited products like kingdom death monster that ruffle my feathers quite a bit.


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## theapoapostolov (Sep 13, 2019)

Wizard of the Coast has also licensed premium-quality versions of their recent storylines. I think there's a market for this sort of products between DM who want to feel professional, and collectors. Most people don't need products of that level because the imagination is the main asset, not the material components. To most people these high premium games may as well not exist, and will not be missed.

As for more expensive RPG product lines, the book market, in general, has leaned towards higher quality and higher production costs material as a main differentiator from the chase to zero PDF market. RPGs have been affected by the Kickstarter effect where the more premium the product looks and feels, it is likely to appeal to a larger audience who perceive its value higher. I tend to agree that this allows some products to shine stronger on their artistic feel or sheer amount of content that can scale on a sizable budget. This is a welcome direction on the market as long as not taken too far, and it looks like it is very stable and higher cost is usually met with higher content and value proposition.


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## pickin_grinnin (Sep 13, 2019)

Counters, cards, and all the other stuff included in Invisible Sun are not things that I care about.  I don't care for board game elements in my roleplaying games.  Given that, it isn't worth it to me, even if it was half the price. Other people have their own ways of evaluating such things.

I don't buy "deluxe" editions, either. The game itself is what I value, not the way the book looks.


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## DWChancellor (Sep 13, 2019)

I like deluxe editions and have bought many "deluxe" options (Geekchic, Wyrmwood, Elder Wood...)

I don't quite see buying an entire RPG as a "deluxe" only option.  This is something I have to convince people to play, and convince them to play multiple times.  When I spring for Gloomhaven I know it will get onto the table.  WIth RPGs I always have to test the waters.

That said, something nice enough, and unique enough will definitely get a look.  There is an incredible market with way more cash than many internet commentators have (see: Wyrmwood, Dwarven Forge, etc.) who are fueling all of these gorgeous Kickstarters.  _Honestly, $250 for someone like Monte Cook is play money for a LOT of people._


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## DaveMage (Sep 13, 2019)

For me the key is (my perceived) value.  I don't mind paying more if the value is there. 

Also, RPGs are like works of art to me.  Some are wonderful, some are trash.  I don't mind spending money on the wonderful.

(Oh, and I bought Invisible Sun in the second kickstarter.  I don't feel like I overpaid.)


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## kunadam (Sep 13, 2019)

Monte Cook became too expensive for me. The main problem is that if I'm honest with myself, I know I will not play the game (lack of time / people to play with), so I buy RPG for my own reading pleasure. And for that, these props laden product are just not worth it.


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## JediSoth (Sep 13, 2019)

I don't get the hate (too strong? derision, maybe) some people have for premium products. I guess there is some level of FOMO, but it literally costs you nothing if you choose not to buy it.


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## lowkey13 (Sep 13, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## eyeheartawk (Sep 13, 2019)

JediSoth said:


> I don't get the hate (too strong? derision, maybe) some people have for premium products. I guess there is some level of FOMO, but it literally costs you nothing if you choose not to buy it.




Best the poors stay quiet and enjoy their bread and circus,eh?


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## Hussar (Sep 13, 2019)

Heh.  I remember years ago buying The World's Largest Dungeon.  At the time, it clocked in around a hundred dollars (give or take) plus shipping.  I don't know if it was the most expensive RPG supplement out there, but, it was certainly in the top end of things.

It was such a fantastic purchase for me though.  I spent so many hours on that module, both during play and outside of game time.  I actually worked it out once, that for my group of 4 to 5 players, plus me, over the 250 (or so) hours that we played, you still couldn't possibly beat the price.  It was just incredible value.

So, yeah, I do think that RPG products are way underpriced.  Good grief, a new AAA video game is what, 75 bucks or so?  And that lasts you what, a hundred hours if you're really lucky?  But, we balk at a 250 dollar product that's going to entertain 5 people for a similar amount of time?  Gamers are really tight fisted.


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## JediSoth (Sep 13, 2019)

eyeheartawk said:


> Best the poors stay quiet and enjoy their bread and circus,eh?




Most premium products have a lower-cost version available and I'm sure you know it. I would appreciate if you didn't twist my words around that way.


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## dragoner (Sep 13, 2019)

I'll take two! 

I keed

Between house, cars, etc.; games are pretty cheap, the only question is if I will use it, or some other value. A lot of game companies are bad at customer service, so it is easy to turn off customers as well, I have a mental list of ones I will never buy from again after buying hundreds of dollars of their stuff, to ones I will often buy from just to show a little goodwill towards.


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## DWChancellor (Sep 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> So, yeah, I do think that RPG products are way underpriced.  Good grief, a new AAA video game is what, 75 bucks or so?  And that lasts you what, a hundred hours if you're really lucky?  But, we balk at a 250 dollar product that's going to entertain 5 people for a similar amount of time?  Gamers are really tight fisted.




There's some truth here.  A unique aspect of RPGs is most of the spending is done by DMs; who also spend huge amounts of time outside of the game working on sessions.  So premium products get premium sighs from DMs who already feel a little underappreciated.

I'm sure there's no correlation to DM'ing and commenting more on Enworld too =)


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## eyeheartawk (Sep 13, 2019)

JediSoth said:


> Most premium products have a lower-cost version available and I'm sure you know it. I would appreciate if you didn't twist my words around that way.



Like Invisible Sun does? Like, you know, what this article is about.


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## DWChancellor (Sep 13, 2019)

eyeheartawk said:


> Like Invisible Sun does? You know, what this article is about.




Why yes, exactly like the $100 pdf that is now available.  And you know, the almost inevitable Humble Bundle release in a few years.


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## billd91 (Sep 13, 2019)

I don't hate premium versions of products - I don't mind a producer making some bank off people with more money than sense (as I see it). At least not with luxury passtime products like games (don't get me started on the differences between minimal and cadillac health care). Collect-ability or affectations for the specialness are reasonable variations.

I don't really value, however, a luxury design that *has* to have all the fancy bells and whistles. If that's the only form its available in - I'm out.


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## Hussar (Sep 13, 2019)

Is there a hobby out there that's as cheap as RPG gaming?  I'm serious.  RPG gaming is ludicrously cheap on a per person per hour basis.  Figure, what, 100 bucks for the core books, another 30 for an AP and you're good for about 100 hours of gaming with very little work.  Good grief, I've spent a heck of a lot more than 130 dollars for dinner for five or six people.  Gaming works out to about 20 cents per person per hour.  That's it.

It's a ridiculously cheap hobby.


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## eyeheartawk (Sep 13, 2019)

DWChancellor said:


> Why yes, exactly like the $100 pdf that is now available.  And you know, the almost inevitable Humble Bundle release in a few years.




A $100 PDF isn't exactly a concession to the mass market. Nor is a humble bundle that may or may not ever exist.


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## Hussar (Sep 13, 2019)

eyeheartawk said:


> A $100 PDF isn't exactly a concession to the mass market. Nor is a humble bundle that may or may not ever exist.



Sorry, but, how cheap do you think it should be?  Figure that the game is being played by 5 people, even for 20 hours.  That's still a dollar an hour per person.  Show me a cheaper hobby.  

Gamers really, really need to loosen their purse strings.  Or, at least not get bent out of shape when someone charges what the game is actually worth, rather than the pittance that some gamers seem to think it should cost.


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## lowkey13 (Sep 13, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## dragoner (Sep 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Sorry, but, how cheap do you think it should be?  Figure that the game is being played by 5 people, even for 20 hours.  That's still a dollar an hour per person.  Show me a cheaper hobby.
> 
> Gamers really, really need to loosen their purse strings.  Or, at least not get bent out of shape when someone charges what the game is actually worth, rather than the pittance that some gamers seem to think it should cost.




Pretty sure a lot of people just read RPG's like books, and then just talk about them, so I can understand their wanting to keep it cheap. On the other hand, companies should price their product according to it's actual value, and not some arbitrary value.


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## Umbran (Sep 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Sorry, but, how cheap do you think it should be?  Figure that the game is being played by 5 people, even for 20 hours.  That's still a dollar an hour per person.  Show me a cheaper hobby.




I agree with you.  I also note, however, that rare indeed is the group that structures the financial support of the game in that manner.  While the game is cheap entertainment, per person, it is not paid for per person.  



> Gamers really, really need to loosen their purse strings.




The 40+ year old gamers, with well established, well paying careers, and no kids, sure.

The purchase of games is done within an economic context.  Wages have been kinda stagnant, if you haven't heard.  When you have student debt, kids, and arent' getting raises, that "you gotta loosen your purse strings" is not an admonition folks deserve.


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## eyeheartawk (Sep 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Sorry, but, how cheap do you think it should be?  Figure that the game is being played by 5 people, even for 20 hours.  That's still a dollar an hour per person.  Show me a cheaper hobby.
> 
> Gamers really, really need to loosen their purse strings.  Or, at least not get bent out of shape when someone charges what the game is actually worth, rather than the pittance that some gamers seem to think it should cost.




That's not the discussion. You're moving goalposts.

The fact that this game only exists in physical form as a very expensive (by RPG standards) $250 box is the issue. This is the version of the game the article is about and most of the discussion has taken place around.

The fact that the game exists in a completely different digital only form for $100 isn't a "standard" version of the game. Not to mention the fact that a $100 PDF puts it in the upper echelons of gaming PDF prices in the same way that the physical box does at $250. I therefore wouldn't call it a concession on price. 

Also, I thought the reason only the premium physical version exists was because Monte Cook wanted to preserve it as "an experience"? If that is so why offer a PDF at all, wouldn't that compromise this "experience"? The existence of the PDF version undercuts the reason for the $250 box set's necessity in the first place.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 13, 2019)

I like how people think its an "issue" that some products are premium priced.  Like they are entitled to a copy of it.   Then again this is the age of entitlement.  You can't afford it?  Well there are a lot of other games out there.  Or have your group all pitch in.

Personally I'd never spend that much but no issue with a 250 dollar product.  250 could be spent in much better ways for me. 

Gamers are over the top cheap.  Powerfully cheap.


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## DWChancellor (Sep 13, 2019)

eyeheartawk said:


> Also, I thought the reason only the premium physical version exists was because Monte Cook wanted to preserve it as "an experience"? If that is so why offer a PDF at all, wouldn't that compromise this "experience"? The existence of the PDF version undercuts the reason for the $250 box set's necessity in the first place.




You know, we can just quote Monte Cook Games on that:

"But there are thousands of gamers for whom the physical Black Cube is simply not a practical option, and even for owners of the Black Cube there’s a benefit to having hyperlinked PDFs of all of the books, printable files for the props, and many of the other digital elements. For all of these great reasons, the PDF is now available!"

*They released it because people asked for a cheaper version.*

Compromise = meeting market desires.  You know, the making money and not going out of business thing.


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## mythago (Sep 13, 2019)

I'm a little puzzled because the thread's author seems to be asking not 'what, for you, is too expensive?' or 'does Invisible Sun live up to its cost' or 'is there a market for these things', but the ultimately unanswerable and flame-baity 'which approach should the industry as a whole take - making games cheap and low-quality or making them pretty and pricey?'  

Ultimately people are going to have different metrics for what they see as appropriate for their wanting to buy an RPG. Some are going to look just at the value - people have already posted that they see an expensive game as well worth it given the number of hours of enjoyment they get out of it. Others, less myopic about their end of the hobby than the thread author's boardgaming pals, will consider whether expensive bits add anything to the game experience. And then there's the question of whether the game designer is appropriately compensated for their efforts.

That there are 'premium' versions of games as well as free games and 'free for your players, the GM can buy the big book' games shows there's an enormous range, and puts the hobby a little beyond X-or-not-X Internet debates, I would think.

(re Invisible Sun specifically, having played it once, there really is a function for the fiddly bits and goodies in the context of that game, so in that sense it is more like a big boardgame set; whether it's therefore worth buying for any given person is a separate issue.)


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 13, 2019)

How expensive is too expensive?  Well if it doesn't sell then it was probably too expensive.  The market will decide that.  Apparently the market will support this product so its not too expensive.


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## aco175 (Sep 13, 2019)

I cannot say anything since I will go out and spend 400.00 on a new golf club.  It is a hobby that people put a value on and spend on based on how much enjoyment you get out of it.  I have lots of old D&D books that are no longer used and still could work fine, like my old golf clubs, but the newer ones are promised to be better than the old junk you bought just a few years ago.


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## eyeheartawk (Sep 13, 2019)

DWChancellor said:


> You know, we can just quote Monte Cook Games on that:
> 
> "But there are thousands of gamers for whom the physical Black Cube is simply not a practical option, and even for owners of the Black Cube there’s a benefit to having hyperlinked PDFs of all of the books, printable files for the props, and many of the other digital elements. For all of these great reasons, the PDF is now available!"
> 
> ...




Well then, I stand corrected on that point. Monte just straight up owned the fact that he compromised his all important game experience  by offering a PDF version. At least he's honest. 

*Wait a minute*

Did the $250 box set not already include PDF files? Did owners have to pay $100 on top of that?


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## Auraword (Sep 13, 2019)

Although there were no plans for a PDF at the time of the original Kickstarter, Monte Cook Games (to their great credit) gave all of the backers complementary links to the PDFs.


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## dragoner (Sep 13, 2019)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> How expensive is too expensive?  Well if it doesn't sell then it was probably too expensive.  The market will decide that.  Apparently the market will support this product so its not too expensive.




In business school, there are entire units on pricing, using various formulas. I went back to school to get my financial management certificate, and in a lot of ways my earlier engineering degree helped, because in macro-econ, one gets into a lot of specific formulas.


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## Rhianni32 (Sep 13, 2019)

I don't get the hate over expensive premium products. This is a hobby. Its not a social issue like healthcare, living space, or food where the debate is on necessities or you will die.

We have tons of options for RPGs and all the bells and whistles or lack thereof that come with it. So yes invisible sun is expensive we have how many dozen(s) other games out there available to us?
And to some, $150 for the 3 core D&D books is elitist because that is not in their own budgets.


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## AngryTiger (Sep 13, 2019)

Anything over 40€ is too expensive for me. I have around 50€ to spend per month after mandatory expenses, and there is plenty of other stuff i could spend that money on than RPGs that i might not even get to play because i can't get a group together. Video games, books, movies, streaming services, fast food, board games, etc. are all competing for my meager disposable income. 
RPGs are pretty good value for money, at least for the first core book purchase. Anything after that has diminishing returns. Supplements, deluxe editions, premium materials, third party material and so on all have additional cost and don't necessary make games more enjoyable or long lasting.
That's why i'm trying to spend as little money as possible on RPGs so i have money left over to buy some other forms of entertainment too.


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## Jer (Sep 13, 2019)

I'm actually all for creators trying new things and seeing if they can get people with money to give that money to them.  Great!  That's how artists and entertainers have historically been able to operate - find rich people who have money to spare and convince them to pay you to entertain them or create art for them.  So if MCG can find enough folks who want to give them a chunk of change to produce a gorgeous looking game with lots of components and bits to it, more power to them.

I can't though.  My entertainment dollar has to spread across all of my entertainment for a month and I only get so much entertainment out of a game I'm never going to play.  And I wouldn't play Invisible Sun because I don't have a group that would have time to play it or want to play it over other things if they did and no prospects of finding a group that would want to play it.  So if I bought it it would be purely to read as an exercise in analyzing game design and enjoyment of a weird setting. And I have stacks and stacks of much cheaper books that are sitting in my "to read" pile that I haven't had time to get around to.


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## DemoMonkey (Sep 13, 2019)

_"Seriously, though, watch out for the dice. My gaming arsenal looks like a jewel factory. I have two bags of premium dice, seventy-five separate d20s for rolling "lucky", five special d12s, a large salt shaker full of d6s for fireballin', and a whole galaxy of multi-colored skullsplitters, gamesciences, chessexes, forged metals. . . and also some Q Workshops for warding off Cthulhu, several pounds of Wiz dice to hurl at the players, a case of old miscellaneous dice that came in various sets, a few dozen vortex, opaques, marble, and steampunks . . . Not that I need all that to play, but once you get locked into a serious dice collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can. "_

The only thing that really worries me are the solid metal dice. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of a fireball casting metal dice binge. And I know we'll get into those table wreckers pretty soon. Probably at the next game session.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Sep 13, 2019)

Andy Warhol was a genius and had such a way with words. Years ago I lived just up the street from his childhood home.

That's definitely one of the things that makes D&D so awesome - you can't buy your way into being a better DM or player. No matter how much you were to spend on a mini, that red dragon won't look any more awesome than what's brought to life with words and imagination.

As for premium gaming products, I've splurged on some fancy dice, bought the silver edition of Sinister Secrets of Saltmarsh. But I've also got a mortgage and adult responsibilities. I agree with others that have said that premium products are fine when there's also a more reasonable tier.

Now, Kickstarters are their own beast. The more stuff and tchotchkes, the more suspicious I get that a project will fulfill on-time or at all. 



lowkey13 said:


> "A coke is a coke and no amount of money can get you a better coke than the one the bum on the corner is drinking. All the cokes are the same and all the cokes are good. Liz Taylor knows it, the President knows it, the bum knows it, and you know it.”
> 
> Andy Warhol


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## lowkey13 (Sep 13, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## John Dallman (Sep 13, 2019)

I hadn't heard of _Invisible Sun_ when it first came out. After a bit of research, while I could buy it, it's not compelling. I don't really value premium production, and all the extra components look more like stuff I'd mislay than things that would enhance a game played in the imagination. I'd also have to convince my regular group to try it, and we don't switch games or systems at all often.


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## Vicente (Sep 13, 2019)

unknowable said:


> I passed on invisible sun because its price was high to what I personally value from a RPG product. But I can respect it.
> 
> Then we get artifically limited products like kingdom death monster that ruffle my feathers quite a bit.




You can buy Kingdom Death Monster right now if you want. It's available in their store (and has been available for a while). Why is it artificially limited?


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## Arilyn (Sep 13, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> NOT TRUE!
> 
> If I just get another set of really cool dice, I will be a better DM.
> 
> Really. This time it will happen. They are such pretty dice ....




Don't get sucked in! The pretty ones are the most treacherous...


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## Alphastream (Sep 13, 2019)

I wrote about the cost of the D&D Tomb of Annihilation hardback here. When I polled people, the $49.95 price was deemed too high by 36% of respondents. That $50 book ended up costing each of us a total of *3 cents an hour*! RPGs are stupidly cheap. Sure, many of us have or have had problems affording material. Life on a budget is hard, always. But, there is a ton of free and low-priced material out there for every game, including Numenera. For all that we claim to be huge RPG fans, we spend more on snacks than on RPGs. Meanwhile, every famous creator ends up with a GoFundMe for their health and insurance plan. 

RPGs should cost a lot more. The idea of raising the cost and selling to the group is excellent. We need more ideas like that. MCG is one of the few small companies providing decent salaries and benefits. We've seen a few companies, such as Matt Colville's MCDM, start to offer better word rates for authors, but most of the industry still offers a wage that isn't close to livable. Our industry, to survive, must take care of its creators.

Part of the problem is the lack of education. Most fans don't understand the low profit a company receives, even from regular distribution. They think WotC sells a $50 book and keeps $40. The gaming store keeps $25, the distribution company keeps $12.50, and WotC gets $12.50 with which to cover all of its costs. Take a look at the amount of art, each of which is more than $100. Take a look at the layout, the editing, the multiple writers and developers and other staff. Those are expensive books. Then look at the Amazon price and redo the math on how bad that is for any company. For many companies, an Amazon sale is more like advertising, because they don't make any real money on the sale. 

For a small company, even selling direct can be difficult for a small product with a decent $200 cover image (it can easily cost much more for a cover). If the budget overall were $500, and the product price is $2, just breaking even is hard... selling direct. Sell through a place like DriveThru and a $2 price likely never gets you there. This is a brutal industry and prices need to come up. $2 for a 4-6 hour experience for 4-6 people is untenable.


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## Von Ether (Sep 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Is there a hobby out there that's as cheap as RPG gaming?  I'm serious.  RPG gaming is ludicrously cheap on a per person per hour basis.  Figure, what, 100 bucks for the core books, another 30 for an AP and you're good for about 100 hours of gaming with very little work.  Good grief, I've spent a heck of a lot more than 130 dollars for dinner for five or six people.  Gaming works out to about 20 cents per person per hour.  That's it.
> 
> It's a ridiculously cheap hobby.




Even cheaper when you're determined to show up with just a character sheet in hand and make demands of the DM. No offer to share the burden either financially or for in-kind - like bringing snacks. 

Some players are super tight fisted to the point they claim Amazon is the "real" price and that game shops are "gouging" the customers by charging actual retail. And then see no disconnect when the buy a video game for full price.  

So yeah, TTRPGs occupy this weird passive agressive head space where many gamers expect a friend to shoulder money and hours of time to entertain everyone else and then get snippy if asked to bring over some chips sometime. 

As for me, I completely lost interest after hearing the price (said, that's not for me and no one I know would chip in to help and moved on), I have spent that much money on lots of other TTRPGs since then. 

I am also still going through a huge back catalog of video games I bought super cheap via Steam sales and Humble. All of them are years old, past their prime days of demanding a$60 price tag.

I know where my priorities lie.


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## dytrrnikl (Sep 13, 2019)

The only premium/collector's set I have ever considered purchasing was Modiphious' Star Trek Adventures: Borg Cube Box Set, currently selling for $247 US, with a collector's version going for $400. After I got past the WOW! of what was included, I came to the same conclusion I always come to, none of the added "value" for the price would increase my enjoyment of the game. They always fall into the "Cool to have, but unnecessary".


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## Doctor Futurity (Sep 13, 2019)

I'm one of two people who always buy the games at my game table (and both myself and the other guy also regularly GM). One of my players gets his books through me as hand-me-downs. The other (my wife) buys just the books we play. The rest of the table does not appear to be invested in the ownership side of the equation (they play what we buy, but don't buy themselves) but interestingly will seem to pay for online services that offer character generators and such.

That said....even I balked at buying Invisible Sun until after I had thoroughly read a lot of reviews and comments on it (and I am a diehard Cypher System fan) because spending that much on a single initial purchase requires a certain risk that you may not get any play time out of the game.....you have to accept you may be buying a fun vanity read with no utility beyond ownership, ultimately. In my case that's how it's worked out so far, though not for lack of interest in playing it, but rather because my time is limited and I am not very good at playing games with loads of props and pieces (I do not purchase or play boardgames, for example). That said: if any game will get me to try it out with all these pieces it will be Invisible Sun, even if I have to wait until I'm retired to find the time to make it work.

$100 for the PDF is too much for me, however. Not because I wouldn't like (or benefit from) having it on hand, but I am an old school gamer and the PDF is purely a complimentary product purchased for utility. I have never and will never run a game just using a PDF; I need hard print books on the table for that to happen. I will, however, use a PDF as an easy reference when designing a scenario, especially if I want to do so while at the coffee shop or a friend's house without hauling around a forty pound cube. The accessibility of the PDF is well worth it.....but purely as an accessory to the real product. If I'd been able to purchase the Cube and gotten a key for a PDF I would have been quite happy.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 13, 2019)

Alphastream said:


> I wrote about the cost of the D&D Tomb of Annihilation hardback here. When I polled people, the $49.95 price was deemed too high by 36% of respondents. That $50 book ended up costing each of us a total of *3 cents an hour*! RPGs are stupidly cheap. Sure, many of us have or have had problems affording material. Life on a budget is hard, always. But, there is a ton of free and low-priced material out there for every game, including Numenera. For all that we claim to be huge RPG fans, we spend more on snacks than on RPGs. Meanwhile, every famous creator ends up with a GoFundMe for their health and insurance plan.
> 
> RPGs should cost a lot more. The idea of raising the cost and selling to the group is excellent. We need more ideas like that. MCG is one of the few small companies providing decent salaries and benefits. We've seen a few companies, such as Matt Colville's MCDM, start to offer better word rates for authors, but most of the industry still offers a wage that isn't close to livable. Our industry, to survive, must take care of its creators.
> 
> ...




Though that will drive down sales.  Will the increased pricing make up is the question.  While I'm calling out the cheapness in gamers I know I do have a limit on what I'll spend on a book.  And 250 is far above it.  60 bucks I think is around what I'll spend for a rule book, but this product was more than that.  For me it wouldn't offer me much extra with the doodads.  But most of my group won't spend that much.  They want to buy one book, well they want someone else to buy one book, and then use it for eternity.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 13, 2019)

I bought the 50 dollar PDF of Rappan Athuck for S&W because it much more user friendly than the 100 dollar hardcover.  Still kind of shocked I spent that much on a PDF...


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## Professor Murder (Sep 13, 2019)

So as an example, I have now bought five hardcover books foe Starfinder, and it's entirely possible I got them just to read and will never run a campaign long enough to justify an expense of around $200. However, that expense felt acceptable because I was able to buy them over time. Invisible Sun isn't just expensive. Its a large, up front expense. I got out of both M:tG and WH40K due to the high costs. I love that the hobby is diversifying and creating premium products, but they will always be the lavish exceptions for a niche of our already niche audience. Fingers crossed that someone runs Invisible Sun at a Con I attend. Otherwise, I dont expect to ever experience it, no matter how good it is.


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## Deleted member 7015506 (Sep 13, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> NOT TRUE!
> 
> If I just get another set of really cool dice, I will be a better DM.
> 
> Really. This time it will happen. They are such pretty dice ....




Good one, made my day thanks.

Edit: added comment for clarification.


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## Abbasax (Sep 13, 2019)

I've spent that much money on an RPG product before, I just wouldn't for _that_ one. I'm not sure how to explain it, but something about the Kickstarter made it kinda feel to me like the game was designed to inflate the cost of the physical product, rather than the cost evolving naturally from the game design, if that makes sense....


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## Deleted member 7015506 (Sep 13, 2019)

Is it considered elitist when somebody can spend hundreds of buckos for a sinhle game? Perhaps. But I bet not everybody pulls those greens out of the machine without cutting on other things. 

Me hating premium products? Not a single moment. If you have the cash or urge to get it, well then do it. Give the body what makes him happy.

Is it overprized? Depending on everyones personal subjective view, the answer differs a lot as we already see in this discussion.

Does a premium limited product hinder its sales/spreading? Yes definitely. People might be interested, but the price might drive them off. So basically a problem for the publisher in making more money on a probable fine product. Personally for some it might be a problem, since they want to have it, but don´t buy it for whatever personal reasons there are. 

Should the industry make games cheaper? One thing a couple of people mentioned in different ways, but had a consensus: Gaming as we do, no matter what type (board, RPG, CCG, etc.) is luxury per se. The luxury comes from things like having the funds, time and general circumstances to be able to do so.

Does a premium/limited game have more gaming value? Again a personal decision, similar to the type/genre of game you play/prefer.

What I miss in this discussion is a bit the problem, that nowadays people want high glossy shiny products/games, that don´t cost a dime. And wuality of a game is not measured only by eye candy, but in its substance = personal value a gamer draws out of it. 

We are used to buy stuff cheap, in all walks of life, expect excellent customer service and don´t pay the real value for the goods. And the point of real value is not only measured in the costs for something, but also the personal value somebody draws out of purchasing that product. Think about soft factors like inner satisfaction for finally getting something special and having something the neighbours kids don´t have.  All human and normal things.

So I stick with Frederick the Great. "Live and let live".


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## ninjayeti (Sep 13, 2019)

I'm all for companies putting out premium versions of their products to upsell the hardcore fans.  What was disappointing with Invisible Sun is that there was no "standard" version of the game available.  I would have paid $60 for a core rulebook - like every other RPG has - and was moderately annoyed/mystified that that was not an option.


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## Rhianni32 (Sep 13, 2019)

Another way to look at this is to price out the parts.
IF someone were to buy all of these for D&D 5ed....
4 books $130 (100 3 core set + xanthars).
dice: $5
spell cards: $60 easily when you add in class decks. (those decks in the above picture are tall.)
magic item cards: $20 
Character sheets: $10
Artbook: $20
$245 and there are multiple hand outs, tokens, GM pads etc to go still.


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## Rhianni32 (Sep 13, 2019)

ninjayeti said:


> I'm all for companies putting out premium versions of their products to upsell the hardcore fans.  What was disappointing with Invisible Sun is that there was no "standard" version of the game available.  I would have paid $60 for a core rulebook - like every other RPG has - and was moderately annoyed/mystified that that was not an option.




You know that is fair. ONLY have an premium exclusive can be disappointing,.


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## icedrake (Sep 13, 2019)

As someone who's playing in a game of Invisible Sun right now, it's not the cost for our group that's offputting. It's everything else associated with MCG and the game system itself that's been disappointing.

The game system has a ton of subsystems, and the rules arent always consistent or coherent.

The rules themselves are spread over three books, rather than consolidated. It makes trying to track what's going on with your character confusing and annoying.

Until a couple of months ago, MCG did not have pdf copies of all the rule books available for purchase, you had to review physical copies of the books. This has been changed, but it took a long time for them to do it when it should have been there at release.

MCG has multiple kickstarter projects being worked on concurrently, from invisible sun, to Numenera to the 5e Numenera project, in various states of fulfillment. With so much going on, delivery of the IS supplements has been delayed.

Edit - on top of the product delays, MCG support takes weeks or months to answer inquiries made by my GM on when he will get his kickstarter rewards or the next stage of the directed campaign. I really think MCG is biting off more than it can handle as a company.

I'm hateplaying this game for the sake of my group, and look forward to when we move on to another game setting / system.


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## icedrake (Sep 13, 2019)

eyeheartawk said:


> Well then, I stand corrected on that point. Monte just straight up owned the fact that he compromised his all important game experience  by offering a PDF version. At least he's honest.
> 
> *Wait a minute*
> 
> Did the $250 box set not already include PDF files? Did owners have to pay $100 on top of that?



Anyone who was an original backer of the first kickstarter product got pdfs for free as an additional reward. I'm not sure about kickstarter 2 for the reprint or people who preordered the box.


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## The Crimson Binome (Sep 13, 2019)

I have nothing against a premium product, but the problem with RPGs is that you have no idea whether a game is playable until after you've read it. 

I passed on Invisible Sun, primarily based on disappointment regarding Numenera. A premium product is not worth gambling on, when the odds are stacked against you to such a degree.


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## ddaley (Sep 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> ...
> Gamers really, really need to loosen their purse strings.  Or, at least not get bent out of shape when someone charges what the game is actually worth, rather than the pittance that some gamers seem to think it should cost.




I have backed quite a few Troll Lord Games kickstarters... but, I haven't backed their last couple because the entry point for the physical book was $60... So, they can raise their prices, but fewer people are going to buy. I, like others have mentioned, buy most of the material with the expectation that we'll never get around to playing it.  So, at some point (apparently around $60 for a hard cover), I say "no thanks"


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## Ralif Redhammer (Sep 13, 2019)

Same. Though, I would also add that an additional factor for me was that they were consistently late, and would start schilling for their next Kickstarter while the previous one was a good number of months behind in delivery.



ddaley said:


> I have backed quite a few Troll Lord Games kickstarters... but, I haven't backed their last couple because the entry point for the physical book was $60... So, they can raise their prices, but fewer people are going to buy. I, like others have mentioned, buy most of the material with the expectation that we'll never get around to playing it.  So, at some point (apparently around $60 for a hard cover), I say "no thanks"


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## Sunsword (Sep 13, 2019)

Invisible Sun ended my interest in Monte Cook Games. I used to back all of their Kickstarters, but the idea of such an expensive product that originally had no digital counterpart in place of the physical product, and props just turned me completely off. I've lived through games with their own lexicons and "immersion" and I'm past that point in life. I respect that MCG needs to follow their own muse, and I doubt my lack of contribution will hurt them.
For me role playing with my group is simply about hanging out, blowing off steam, and rolling some dice and Invisible Sun didn't seem to be aimed at that type of group with what they revealed.

Lastly, as the buyer of 2 gaming stores in KY, I knew it was too expensive for our shelves and had no one express interest in either print run.

But that is merely my markets.


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## Retreater (Sep 13, 2019)

I play Warhammer. I laugh at your concept of "expensive."


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## Beleriphon (Sep 13, 2019)

On the idea that RPGs are super cheap per hour, they sure are. However, that $0.03 hour costs still requires me to fork out something like $100 upfront.

In this case_ Invisible Sun_ might be a really, really awesome product. However, $250 is still pretty substantial outlay, and I don't get to pay that off over a 100 hours, I have to pay it all now.


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## Retreater (Sep 13, 2019)

I just dropped $180 on the new Savage Worlds Adventurer's Edition Boxed Set and core rules (including shipping). I love it, but if anything, it's probably more frivolous than Invisible Sun. That includes one hardcover book, GM screen, and a few decks of cards, tokens, dice, and other accoutrements that might add to the game, but certainly don't add "meaty" content - such as supplements, adventures, etc. I'll be doing the same with the new Savage Rifts set coming out later this year. 
I guess one of the main differences is that there is a lower entry available to both sets when compared to Invisible Sun. (I can buy just the rulebooks for $40ish or PDFs even cheaper.) I don't own the set, so I wonder what play value a hand statue adds to the game? Also, it's not an established property. Even though I've made it clear my views on Numenera, I could understand the release of a premium boxed set of that game. Invisible Sun seems to ask us to purchase it for no more than Monte Cook's name. [Granted, I bought Ptolus back in the day - which killed me ever wanting to run a city campaign again. Haha.]


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## dragoner (Sep 14, 2019)

RPG's are also an art form, so that beg's the question: "what price art?" Some art hangs in museums, and is of inestimable value, others, forgotten. Which also leads to the fact that art to one person, is trash to another. I know walking through the vendor's pavillion at GenCon, I have seen really beautiful books, but with horrible writing, typos, while the layout and pictures were excellent. How much is that worth? Then I have seen work that is little more than a folio, no art or layout, but the writing is brilliant, so what is it's value?


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## Hussar (Sep 14, 2019)

Retreater said:


> I play Warhammer. I laugh at your concept of "expensive."




ROTF.  Yeah, I have to admit, reading through the thread, I had exactly the same thought.  200 bucks?  That won't even buy you a single army of 40k miniatures.  

Or try getting into Attack Wing sometime.

I know I balked for a long time paying for the Ultimate License for Fantasy Grounds.  But, again, considering the hours played, I can't really complain.  It works out to under a dollar an hour.


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## Alphastream (Sep 14, 2019)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Though that will drive down sales.  Will the increased pricing make up is the question.  While I'm calling out the cheapness in gamers I know I do have a limit on what I'll spend on a book.  And 250 is far above it.




There are all kinds of industries with premium pricing. Individuals might never consider a premium price. So long as enough do, it's a viable product. Strong industries can support a variety of prices and offerings. We can see that in almost anything. I'm sure all of us at some point saw a movie theater offering food and super comfortable recliners and we laughed. Now it's common (and the price of a ticket is high overall). Industries from sneakers to cars to electronics have premium pricing.

The funny thing is that our hobby has generally lacked that. It's a sign of our hobby being weak. The appearance of premium products suggest that our hobby is improving. I'm glad companies like MCG and Beadle & Grimms are leading the way.

The bigger issue is how myopic many gamers can be. Many see that $250 and can't extrapolate that out. If you buy the set as a group of 5, that's $50 each. Play the game 5 times and it cost everyone $10 per session. Assuming 4hr sessions, you each paid $2.50 an hour to play. It's affordable over time. And Invisible Suns always encouraged purchasing as a group.

Sure, not everyone can afford a high up-front cost. But we have tons of cheap options. Numenera/Cypher is available in a wide range of prices from free to expensive. Most RPGs have free rules and content. 

The industry is full of companies where the few employees are part-time, don't pay themselves a salary, don't have health care, don't have a retirement plan, and don't have savings. That needs to change. It has to be okay for companies to find ways to change the current situation. As gamers, we can help by educating those around us and supporting higher prices.


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## Mortellan (Sep 14, 2019)

I'm old, but I definitely live by a personal code of bigger page count/price tag = less use. Smaller publications get more use and thus get tore up, but that's their function, not to be a high end work of art.


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## ddaley (Sep 14, 2019)

Alphastream said:


> There are all kinds of industries with premium pricing. Individuals might never consider a premium price. So long as enough do, it's a viable product....




RPGs need enough people to purchase the books in order to have a thriving gaming community.  If you charge too much, your audience, and hence community will be smaller.  It'll be difficult to support 3rd party publishers... again because the community is smaller.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 14, 2019)

The skies the limit.

 If I spend $5 on a burger and it's decent enough I'm happy. If I'm spending $30 it had better be good.


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## stargazera5 (Sep 14, 2019)

"Role playing games are a luxury market"

This is the fallacy of the entire arguement.  RPGs are NOT a luxury market, they are a mass market commodity in direct competition for buyer's $$ with novels, movies, computer games and other entertainment.      The complaints about RPG costs are usually because the complainer is comparing against what they may be paying for  other forms of durable entertainment such as a book.  And yes, book page counts/$, video game complexity, and movie special effects have all been forced to raise just as the columnist points out that production values have been forced to increase.  This isn't unreasonable, it's normal market forces in action.   I've seen articles and arguments for years that RPGs are "cheap", but in reality most of those arguments amount to the person putting forth the argument decrying that the pricing power is in the hands of the consumer.

Personally I won't pay more than $20 for a PDF, and even above $10, I'm more likely to put the product on a wish list and wait for a sale.  More and more of my gaming budget is going to Bundle of Holding and Humble Bundle because they provide an amazing value, which is to the creator's benefit as I wouldn't have bought otherwise.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 14, 2019)

stargazera5 said:


> "Role playing games are a luxury market"
> 
> This is the fallacy of the entire arguement.  RPGs are NOT a luxury market, they are a mass market commodity in direct competition for buyer's $$ with novels, movies, computer games and other entertainment.      The complaints about RPG costs are usually because the complainer is comparing against what they may be paying for  other forms of durable entertainment such as a book.  And yes, book page counts/$, video game complexity, and movie special effects have all been forced to raise just as the columnist points out that production values have been forced to increase.  This isn't unreasonable, it's normal market forces in action.   I've seen articles and arguments for years that RPGs are "cheap", but in reality most of those arguments amount to the person putting forth the argument decrying that the pricing power is in the hands of the consumer.
> 
> Personally I won't pay more than $20 for a PDF, and even above $10, I'm more likely to put the product on a wish list and wait for a sale.  More and more of my gaming budget is going to Bundle of Holding and Humble Bundle because they provide an amazing value, which is to the creator's benefit as I wouldn't have bought otherwise.




They're a luxury item in terms of you don't need to buy them say compared to food, a roof over your head, electricity etc (hard core you don't really need electricity either but you kinda do for a modern lifestyle). 

 They're not exactly cheap hence why its mostly a white middle class game. Thats changing a bit because they have put a lot of price points of entry into the game (free PDFs, cheap starter set, more expensive books).

 When I started I had the choice of a D&D book or a new pair of shoes. I can get drunk 3 or 4 weekends in a row or buy a PHB. Its cheap overall if you use it, the initial buy in in't cheap relative to a cup of coffee, a few beers, going to the movies etc.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 14, 2019)

eyeheartawk said:


> A $100 PDF isn't exactly a concession to the mass market. Nor is a humble bundle that may or may not ever exist.




Why should Monte Cook Games provide a "concession" to the hobby? Your point of view puzzles me. The main version of the game is very expensive, but also is packed with high quality components. This was never meant to appeal to all gamers, but that is not the same thing as MCG being "elitist" or condescending to the "poors". Not everything has to be made for the mass market, and that's okay.

If you don't feel the value personally, that's fine. But why crap on somebody else's sandwich? How does the existence of this luxury gaming product hurt you, your gaming group, or the larger hobby? (Hint: It's doesn't)

I didn't purchase the game personally as the price was a bit high for me, and I wasn't enamored of the genre/setting. But the basic idea of creating luxury products aimed at only a portion of the gaming audience I think is fine. If MCG or another company produces a luxury product that is more inline with my tastes, I might scrimp & save to pick up a copy. And roll my eyes at the "poors" whining about elitism.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 14, 2019)

Dire Bare said:


> Why should Monte Cook Games provide a "concession" to the hobby? Your point of view puzzles me. The main version of the game is very expensive, but also is packed with high quality components. This was never meant to appeal to all gamers, but that is not the same thing as MCG being "elitist" or condescending to the "poors". Not everything has to be made for the mass market, and that's okay.
> 
> If you don't feel the value personally, that's fine. But why crap on somebody else's sandwich? How does the existence of this luxury gaming product hurt you, your gaming group, or the larger hobby? (Hint: It's doesn't)
> 
> I didn't purchase the game personally as the price was a bit high for me, and I wasn't enamored of the genre/setting. But the basic idea of creating luxury products aimed at only a portion of the gaming audience I think is fine. If MCG or another company produces a luxury product that is more inline with my tastes, I might scrimp & save to pick up a copy. And roll my eyes at the "poors" whining about elitism.





 There is a bit of a backlash against certain things atm. $100 is a lot for a PDF, its exactly what it is a high end $100 PDF.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 14, 2019)

Sunsword said:


> Invisible Sun ended my interest in Monte Cook Games. I used to back all of their Kickstarters, but the idea of such an expensive product that originally had no digital counterpart in place of the physical product, and props just turned me completely off. I've lived through games with their own lexicons and "immersion" and I'm past that point in life. I respect that MCG needs to follow their own muse, and I doubt my lack of contribution will hurt them.
> For me role playing with my group is simply about hanging out, blowing off steam, and rolling some dice and Invisible Sun didn't seem to be aimed at that type of group with what they revealed.
> 
> Lastly, as the buyer of 2 gaming stores in KY, I knew it was too expensive for our shelves and had no one express interest in either print run.
> ...




If you were not interested in Invisible Sun, why would that turn you off from future MCG kickstarters that don't follow that model? Like the next Numenera kickstarter for example? How does the existence of Invisible Sun take away from MCG's other games?


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## Dire Bare (Sep 14, 2019)

ddaley said:


> RPGs need enough people to purchase the books in order to have a thriving gaming community.  If you charge too much, your audience, and hence community will be smaller.  It'll be difficult to support 3rd party publishers... again because the community is smaller.




No, you don't really need a sizeable "thriving gaming community" to enjoy a game. Luxury or free fan-game. Our hobby is littered with awesome RPGs of all sorts that have very small communities. The many, many OSR games out there are a great example. All you really need is a handful of friends willing to play with you, that's it! If there is a larger community out there, that's a bonus, but it doesn't have to be huge to be a community. Communities of merely several hundred folks or even less get together all the time both online and IRL to celebrate all sorts of things.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 14, 2019)

Dire Bare said:


> If you were not interested in Invisible Sun, why would that turn you off from future MCG kickstarters that don't follow that model? Like the next Numenera kickstarter for example? How does the existence of Invisible Sun take away from MCG's other games?




 Consumer goods are also emotional, MCG priced someone out of a product hence they don't like it. Understandable IMHO.


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## stargazera5 (Sep 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> They're a luxury item in terms of you don't need to buy them say compared to food, a roof over your head, electricity etc (hard core you don't really need electricity either but you kinda do for a modern lifestyle).



While it is true that that is the classic definition of luxury, it really doesn't work well in the modern world of mass market commoditization.  In the western world, much of what even the poor buy falls into that category of "luxury" without having to go anywhere near things like electricity.  Luxury products, at least in the more modern view, implies the ability for the seller to charge a premium for the product as they are considered more desirable.  As RPGs manifestly not only cannot charge a premium (the complaint in the column), but, outside of niche individual products,  never will be able to charge a premium due to competition from other mass market entertainment options, they can't be considered a true luxury item.


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## Gammadoodler (Sep 14, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Is there a hobby out there that's as cheap as RPG gaming?  I'm serious.  RPG gaming is ludicrously cheap on a per person per hour basis.  Figure, what, 100 bucks for the core books, another 30 for an AP and you're good for about 100 hours of gaming with very little work.  Good grief, I've spent a heck of a lot more than 130 dollars for dinner for five or six people.  Gaming works out to about 20 cents per person per hour.  That's it.
> 
> It's a ridiculously cheap hobby.



I mean...soccer just needs a ball and can entertain between 2 and like 20 players at a time. Think it's the most popular sport in the world by accident?


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## WanderingMystic (Sep 14, 2019)

So I collect high end dogs. My shelves are lined with leather bound edditions of the games I love. With all that bwing said I was still taken back by the sticker price of Invisible Sun. Once Monte added the PDF to all kickstarter backers and all pre orders I buckled and bought the black cube. The production values of the box is worth the 250+ price tag. I would have prefered all of the spells being in a book for easier refrence than all just cards and at times the lay out is not as intuitive as I would like. If all of the information had just been in two 300 pg books for about 100-150 total I think more people would buy the game and like it. Buying the black cube is like backing an rpg game and an artist pet project all in one. While it could have been put in a different formatw that is les expensive to me it is more about experincing he artist vision.

On a side note I have always recived  call backa from Montecookgames in a few hours on any problems I have had. I own all Numenera books and have always been happy with them.


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## Hussar (Sep 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> /snip
> 
> They're not exactly cheap hence why its mostly a white middle class game.
> 
> /snip




Wow. 

Umm, no.  It's a mostly suburban game because those who live in city proper have other options and those who live in the country face a very difficult task of getting a group together.

It's a mostly white game for a lot of reasons.  Price isn't one of them.



> When I started I had the choice of a D&D book or a new pair of shoes. I can get drunk 3 or 4 weekends in a row or buy a PHB. Its cheap overall if you use it, the initial buy in in't cheap relative to a cup of coffee, a few beers, going to the movies etc.




What?  When I started, a PHB was about 20 bucks.  If you're drinking for 3 or 4 weekends for 20 bucks, that's pretty cheap.  And, let's compare it to today shall we?  Going to the movies for 4 people puts a very, very large dent in a hundred dollars.  Easy.  And it's not hard to spend more.  

Again, this gets back to the point that so many gamers are unbelievably tight fisted - not contributing to the DM to buy new supplements, for example.  Or the idea of paying the DM as being laughable in most circles.  

I really don't know where this idea came from that we should be gaming for pennies an hour.  It's baffling.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 14, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Wow.
> 
> Umm, no.  It's a mostly suburban game because those who live in city proper have other options and those who live in the country face a very difficult task of getting a group together.
> 
> It's a mostly white game for a lot of reasons.  Price isn't one of them.




Context I live in a student city. Most players at the FLGS are students. 90% of them are from middle class or upper class back grounds.

Alot of people on welfare can't afford it, my mother couldn't although I did get a book for Christmas.

I bought it with my own money via my own job aged 14/15. If I have a long term player I know is hard up I'll funnel them an old phb or something.


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## dwayne (Sep 14, 2019)

just the books and none of the other bulk would be nice, but i am a strict D&D fan and only buy those things that are compatible.


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## aramis erak (Sep 14, 2019)

For me, I took one look, saw $250 as the entry point, and said, "No <expletive gerund> way in <expletive gerund> hell."

It would have to be a designer I appreciate the work of deeply to even cross $100 for a core. Mr. Cook is not one of such folk.

What I've seen of Mr Cook's work is solid, but it's all been Class & Level... if it turns up on Bundle of Holding or Humble Bundle, maybe $20...


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## Professor Murder (Sep 14, 2019)

What doesn't get discussed much is that RPGs are a communal hobby where the cost is disproportionately distributed. GMs are much more likely to buy more books than players. It's like if on a baseball team the pitcher was tasked with buying the uniforms out of pocket. High end games have to appeal to people who want to run them first.


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## DaveMage (Sep 14, 2019)

I do like the fact that MCG takes big swings at products.  Ptolus was fantastic, IMO.  Invisible Sun is one of those swings.  I wish more publishers took chances like these (and with crowdfunding like Kickstarter, they even have a safety net).


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## ddaley (Sep 14, 2019)

Dire Bare said:


> No, you don't really need a sizeable "thriving gaming community" to enjoy a game. Luxury or free fan-game. Our hobby is littered with awesome RPGs of all sorts that have very small communities. The many, many OSR games out there are a great example. All you really need is a handful of friends willing to play with you, that's it! If there is a larger community out there, that's a bonus, but it doesn't have to be huge to be a community. Communities of merely several hundred folks or even less get together all the time both online and IRL to celebrate all sorts of things.




There is likely a reason that we don't see game publishers using your model... it just isn't realistic.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 14, 2019)

ddaley said:


> There is likely a reason that we don't see game publishers using your model... it just isn't realistic.




But we do. As I said, there are a lot of RPG games with small communities. They exist. Publishers continue to publish new ones and supplements to existing ones. Certainly, the "bigger" the publisher, the larger the community they target, but there are plenty of small publishers making small games.


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## Campbell (Sep 14, 2019)

The Player's Handbook is $27 on Amazon. That's about what it costs to get dinner at most chain restaurants in Denver. It is substantially less than a night out drinking.


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## Deleted member 7015506 (Sep 14, 2019)

ddaley said:


> There is likely a reason that we don't see game publishers using your model... it just isn't realistic.



I may be wrong, but Dire Bare is right: For a good game you just need some rules to play by (many good games are for free or sold for very low money!) and folks willing to play it.

And if game publishing would be only about making money, which is a valid reason, then we wouldn´t have OSR, PWYW, Print-and-Play, etc. etc. And from a personal point of view those small independant publishers and folks involved in such projects a lot of great games and content is available. it might not always be shiny and glossy, sport astounding art or is free of errors or bugs, but it definitely pumps the gaming hobby in general. And again subjectively spoken, many of those products offer more fun for me than those from the big companies. Small doesn´t mean bad nor is the so called production value (paper used, art included, hard cover/soft cover, etc.) an indicator for its entertainment factor. 

There is a reason for pricing a professionally published product to a certain level called economics. That is not to be condemned in any way, since it can be a strong motivator to provide quality products. But this is what I would call personal motivation: Is the aim to make tons of money out of a product or is it to share an idea/vision with others for no or a small compensation for investing time and money into publishing it? whatever the reason to publish, neither of those possibilities is to be condemned (at least I think that way).

And for the term "market": How large or small a following/supporting community is, is based on so many factors, that numbers basically don´t men anything (except when you think economically in dollar terms). A good game, like said already, doesn´t need a large community to prove it is just that - a good game.


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## ddaley (Sep 14, 2019)

Arduis de Gispard said:


> I may be wrong, but Dire Bare is right: For a good game you just need some rules to play by (many good games are for free or sold for very low money!) and folks willing to play it




Um, I believe Dire Bare is arguing that games should be priced much higher... not free or low cost.  Dire Bare is saying it is fine if only a handful of people play it because only a handful of people are willing to spend the money on it.  Games stores are not going to want to carry a $250 book that is likely to sit on the shelf for 2 years.  They would prefer the $50 books that move more quickly.  And, as you get older, it is harder to find groups to play with.  If few people play a particular game, then it'll be even more challenging to find a group willing to play.

Probably a lot of us began gaming when we were young.  I was around 12.  How many teenagers would be able to drop hundreds of dollars on a core rule book?  Having expensive books would stifle the younger groups.


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## Campbell (Sep 14, 2019)

If we are honest if we are talking about meaningful publishing houses with dedicated staff that can reliably deliver product to game stores and book stores there aren't many publishers. Pretty much Wizards of the Coast, Paizo Publishing, and Fantasy Flight Games. If we are being generous maybe Modiphus and Evil Hat. That last one is really generous, but at least out here in Colorado they have their stuff in line.

Pretty much everybody is indie now. It's all about finding your market whatever that is, staying connected, and not overproducing.


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## Deleted member 7015506 (Sep 14, 2019)

@ddaley

I see the point, that larger publishers reach a greater community by having better means to make their products public or better known to say (called marketing AFAIK), but not the point you mentioned. Generally higher prices for a product is in my understanding not mentioned in his posts. He is fine with the publication of premium products as I can see. If I overread something, please correct me here. 

I also understand your points mentioned and can go along with them since a friend of mine owns a FLGS and he would never invest in such a product due to the obvious economical reasons. 

But one thing I understood (or at least think I did), is that MCG made (perhaps) an experiment and it worked in one way or the other (depending on the initial reasons for doing it). To me their other products seem priced on a reasonable normal basis common to current trends for professional publishers. Again correct me if I am wrong.

And coming back to your reply, I would like to reply: How many people at the age of 18, 19 or so could afford buying an expensive luxury car, when their basic income is close to zero? they all would love to drive Ferraris, Mercedes and whatnot of those prestige objects, but can´t afford it (unless their parents are rich and get them for them). Publishing and offering a luxury/premium gaming product as we discuss here is definitely not aimed at the broad masses but towards a customer base that can afford it for whatever reasons (economical or otherwise) the publisher had in mind. 

For a general demand of pricing games higher than current, we can delve into the pros and cons, arguments of economics, business management and similar related topics. Looking forward to that .


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## Zardnaar (Sep 14, 2019)

Campbell said:


> The Player's Handbook is $27 on Amazon. That's about what it costs to get dinner at most chain restaurants in Denver. It is substantially less than a night out drinking.




 Can't get cheap Amazon everywhere due to shipping. 

I can buy a phb or

3 dozen craft beer
4 dozen normal beer
2 bottles of spirits
11 cans of Baltika 9 (5.7 drinks per can)

 No prep time required. 

 It's not that expensive in the grand scheme but here it's buy the three core books or have $200-$250 bucks ($120-$150 USD). 

 Not exactly cheap.


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## Campbell (Sep 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Can't get cheap Amazon everywhere due to shipping.
> 
> I can buy a phb or
> 
> ...




Where are you located? Stateside I have never been anywhere Amazon does not deliver. Even in my rural hometown in Michigan.

Here in Denver I can't get 3 six packs for $27.


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## billd91 (Sep 14, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I really don't know where this idea came from that we should be gaming for pennies an hour.  It's baffling.




Because, as has been pointed out, nobody thinks in those terms (except maybe you). We don't amortize our gaming costs a session or session/hour at a time. We eat that $50-60 expense all at once whether or not we get much use out of the material we get in return and that's the calculus most of us, I dare say, are making.

But hey, you go on accusing gamers of being cheap when they complain about high prices without knowing what kind of disposable income they have, how much they have to spend on medication copays, rent/mortgage, day care, or groceries. After all, it's *so much easier* to ascribe bad motivations to people than actually find out anything about them.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 14, 2019)

Campbell said:


> Where are you located? Stateside I have never been anywhere Amazon does not deliver. Even in my rural hometown in Michigan.
> 
> Here in Denver I can't get 3 six packs for $27.




New Zealand, shipping costs make the books marginally cheaper than the FLGS that charges $65-$75 for 5E stuff.

A phb at $65 is about the same price as 3 dozen decent beers.

So the upfront cost is quite steep. A lot of students here and rent is expensive so you can buy 2-3 books or pay your rent for the week.

Not expensive as such and cheap compared to some other hobbies but a few people don't have any hobbies that cost money.

  You can take a good guess at a few players backgrounds by the way they're dressed or what tablet they're carrying aka what mummy and daddy bought them.

Hence an earlier comment about it's mostly a white middle class game here. FLGS might have 30 people playing, but yeah guess who's playing it.  Each group might have 1-3 women in it which is new but it's 90-100% white mostly students and the local uni is heavily middle class and well off.

Not saying it's right or wrong but a phb is more like $45 USD,  your $27 Amazon phb will have around $14 postage on it.


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## Aaron L (Sep 14, 2019)

I would just like boxed sets to become common again.  I got an original Dark Sun Boxed Set in pristine condition for $60 on eBay last year, and it made me seriously miss the feeling of opening a box and pulling out all the various books, maps, posters, catalogues, and flyers (seeing the 1991 Fall/Winter TSR catalogue and RPGA membership form was a kick!)  And I know it wasn't just pure nostalgia, it was because having an_ actual physical map of the game world_ and other physical doodads to interact with makes the experience more real.  

We're all nerds here and we all *love* books, but having all those other things which you can only include in a boxed set just makes the experience better.  However, I would never want to see the price for them reach ridiculous levels because I would never be able to afford them; $250 for an RPG?  Nope, I would _*never*_ be able to afford that, even if I tried to save up for it.  $100 for a PDF?  Nope, not even remotely physically possible.  Companies could still make boxed sets, just including cheaper doodads and whatsits.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 14, 2019)

Aaron L said:


> I would just like boxed sets to become common again.  I got an original Dark Sun Boxed Set in pristine condition for $60 on eBay last year, and it made me seriously miss the feeling of opening a box and pulling out all the various books, maps, posters, catalogues, and flyers (seeing the 1991 Fall/Winter TSR catalogue and RPGA membership form was a kick!)  And I know it wasn't just pure nostalgia, it was because having an_ actual physical map of the game world_ and other physical doodads to interact with makes the experience more real.
> 
> We're all nerds here and we all *love* books, but having all those other things which you can only include in a boxed set just makes the experience better.  However, I would never want to see the price for them reach ridiculous levels because I would never be able to afford them; $250 for an RPG?  Nope, I would _*never*_ be able to afford that, even if I tried to save up for it.  $100 for a PDF?  Nope, not even remotely physically possible.  Companies could still make boxed sets, just including cheaper doodads and whatsits.




Boxed sets like TSR used to make were underpriced.

 They would be around the $100 mark probably more.


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## Aaron L (Sep 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Boxed sets like TSR used to make were underpriced.
> 
> They would be around the $100 mark probably more.



I know, which is why I said they could use cheaper doodads.  Black and white maps and the like; everything doesn't need to be full color glossy to be cool.  And I could probably swing $100 every once in a while for a box full of books and cool stuff.


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## Campbell (Sep 14, 2019)

So I have mixed opinions on this. Generally I think it is important for a game that is intended to be an entry point to the hobby to be more affordable to get started in and to have less expensive to ramp up costs for transitioning into the wider game.

However I have no real issues with Boutique Games being a thing. If a game is not trying to be the entry point to gaming and is worth the cost I am all for promoting it as a luxury item. I know that prices some people out of the game, but if you are aiming for a smaller audience or have designed a game that is intended for a more niche, deeper invested market I am all for it. Some designs will require this approach to stay profitable. I would rather companies that are not the market leader design the games they want to and find a price that works for them and their audience.

This is particularly true for companies like Onyx Path who lack the resources to do traditional print runs. Exalted 3rd Edition as designed would not be feasible at a much lower price point. Print On Demand will never have accessible price points with a game that very much requires quality graphic design to live up to its promise. I feel the sacrifices they would have to make for the game to be more accessible would mean it is not the game that creatively want to put out.


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## Hussar (Sep 15, 2019)

billd91 said:


> Because, as has been pointed out, nobody thinks in those terms (except maybe you). We don't amortize our gaming costs a session or session/hour at a time. We eat that $50-60 expense all at once whether or not we get much use out of the material we get in return and that's the calculus most of us, I dare say, are making.
> 
> But hey, you go on accusing gamers of being cheap when they complain about high prices without knowing what kind of disposable income they have, how much they have to spend on medication copays, rent/mortgage, day care, or groceries. After all, it's *so much easier* to ascribe bad motivations to people than actually find out anything about them.




I'm sorry, but if my choice is paying my rent or gaming, then what right do I have to complain about the price of gaming?  Do I also complain about the price of golf?  Or fishing?  Or any number of a thousand other hobbies that are FAR more expensive than gaming.  

Even if you're a tabletop board gamer, you're spending a HELL of a lot more than 200-250 dollars to support your hobby.  That's what, four, maybe five games?  Never minding video gaming where it's about 70 bucks for any AAA new release plus the several hundred dollars for a console.

So, yeah, I'm going to accuse gamers of being incredibly tight fisted.  If you're buying supplements that aren't actually being used, you again don't get to bitch about the price.  You chose to buy that supplement that you didn't even need (since it didn't get used or used very much, I daresay you didn't need it).  

The comparison isn't medication copays or groceries.  The comparison is a night at the movies or dinner at a restaurant.  The fact that most gamers are so incredibly tight fisted that they won't pony up to help the DM pay for THEIR hobby is just more proof that gamers need to open the purse strings and actually support the hobby.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 15, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I'm sorry, but if my choice is paying my rent or gaming, then what right do I have to complain about the price of gaming?  Do I also complain about the price of golf?  Or fishing?  Or any number of a thousand other hobbies that are FAR more expensive than gaming.
> 
> Even if you're a tabletop board gamer, you're spending a HELL of a lot more than 200-250 dollars to support your hobby.  That's what, four, maybe five games?  Never minding video gaming where it's about 70 bucks for any AAA new release plus the several hundred dollars for a console.
> 
> ...




 Bit rough dude. Not everyone can drop $300 on a game, some can't drop $50.

 It's like the free to play model. The ones who actually pay need people to play with.


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## pogre (Sep 15, 2019)

I don't mind dropping a fair amount of money on the hobbies I enjoy. I try to spend big money on things I know I will use. Try a game for $250 - hard pass.

However, I spend money on things that make a difference in performance for me. 

Something that makes the game easier to play - like spell cards, monster cards, etc. - no problem, I'm buying. 

Top end paint brushes to paint miniatures - they help my painting and last longer - yep, I'm throwing down the cash. 

Deluxe covers, premium paper for a rulebook is usually a pass for me. I'm pretty hard on my rulebooks and like to write notes in them. All my 5e D&D core books' bindings are falling apart.

Everyone has a different gauge for value dictated by their perceptions and life situations.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 15, 2019)

ddaley said:


> Um, I believe Dire Bare is arguing that games should be priced much higher... not free or low cost.  Dire Bare is saying it is fine if only a handful of people play it because only a handful of people are willing to spend the money on it.  Games stores are not going to want to carry a $250 book that is likely to sit on the shelf for 2 years.  They would prefer the $50 books that move more quickly.  And, as you get older, it is harder to find groups to play with.  If few people play a particular game, then it'll be even more challenging to find a group willing to play.
> 
> Probably a lot of us began gaming when we were young.  I was around 12.  How many teenagers would be able to drop hundreds of dollars on a core rule book?  Having expensive books would stifle the younger groups.




Thanks for speaking for me. But you are wrong.

A game can target a small community independent of it's price tag. Many inexpensive PDF-only games enjoy small communities. I'm assuming the player community for Invisible Sun with it's hefty price tag is also relatively small. A game does not have to attract a large community to be successful. What makes a game successful? That depends on the goals of those who wrote and produced it.

If I am an independent RPG writer who just wants my game out there, and I keep my expenses low, I can easily make back my investment if the fan base for my new game is only in the hundreds. I won't get rich off my work, but if that isn't my goal in the first place, that's okay. My fans are happy, I'm happy.

If I am running a small RPG company that has a lot of name recognition within the larger RPG community (but we're still small), and I want to push the artistry and quality of games farther than anyone has yet, I don't need a mass-market product. I need something that a small community of folks would be willing to pay a lot of money for.

There are tons of very successful small-press indie games out there with small player communities. Invisible Sun has enjoyed two very successful Kickstarters, but still has a small community of players. And somehow, games for all genres, styles, and price-points thrive and grow the hobby without "stifling the young" (I am very much rolling my eyes right now). And there are, of course, games that ARE aimed at a larger audience doing quite well too. There is plenty of room for all in this growing and more diverse gaming community today.


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## Hussar (Sep 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Bit rough dude. Not everyone can drop $300 on a game, some can't drop $50.
> 
> It's like the free to play model. The ones who actually pay need people to play with.




How is that the problem of publishers?  

Should the game be priced for those who cannot afford a 50 dollar game?  Seriously?  Should pricing not be determined by the quality of the product and the value?  Gaming should be charity?   Maybe we need NPO's to publish games.

Gimme a break.  "Some people are really poor, so, I shouldn't have to pay more for quality products" is an incredibly selfish position to take.  

I guess my point is, maybe some players should creak open the purse once in a while and pony up for a book for the group instead of freeloading on the hobby for years on end.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 15, 2019)

Hussar said:


> How is that the problem of publishers?
> 
> Should the game be priced for those who cannot afford a 50 dollar game?  Seriously?  Should pricing not be determined by the quality of the product and the value?  Gaming should be charity?   Maybe we need NPO's to publish games.
> 
> ...




 It's not, the person who didn't like it was entitled to that opinion. 

 RPG books are usually cheaper than $300. I don't mind personally but I can understand why others don't like it.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Sep 15, 2019)

Campbell said:


> The Player's Handbook is $27 on Amazon. That's about what it costs to get dinner at most chain restaurants in Denver. It is substantially less than a night out drinking.



Yeah, RPGs are a very inexpensive hobby all things considered. I can think of many hobbies where $250 is not even a way in the door. 

It's _possible_ to spend a lot but it's also quite possible not to. I've played with a guy for multiple decades now who, I wouldn't be surprised, has spent less than $1000 on game books in that entire time. Of course, he benefits from those of us who drop more money but even so, what he's able to do with just some minimal resources is pretty impressive. 

Of course, many game designers would go out of business with many folks like him.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Sep 15, 2019)

Campbell said:


> Here in Denver I can't get 3 six packs for $27.




Decent booze tends to be expensive in the USA relative to other things. I was just in the Netherlands, where for instance, a reasonable beer and a coke cost about the same thing and there are no free refills on the latter.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Sep 15, 2019)

Doctor Futurity said:


> That said....even I balked at buying Invisible Sun until after I had thoroughly read a lot of reviews and comments on it (and I am a diehard Cypher System fan) because spending that much on a single initial purchase requires a certain risk that you may not get any play time out of the game.....you have to accept you may be buying a fun vanity read with no utility beyond ownership, ultimately.




Definitely. I've bought a number of "interesting" games over the years and more or less had that experience. $250 for me is a lot out the gate for an RPG, though I've dropped more on guitars I didn't like... and fancy dinners with a now ex, too. I'm sure we all know the feeling. 

I also have to deal with the storage space issue. One thing that's helped me, though I'm far from perfect with this, is to think of how much I'm paying for a place in terms of storage. 



> In my case that's how it's worked out so far, though not for lack of interest in playing it, but rather because my time is limited and I am not very good at playing games with loads of props and pieces (I do not purchase or play boardgames, for example).




Yeah props and chachkes would be a pretty big downer for me, definitely. It's one reason I really don't like boxed sets, due to the high loss potential.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Sep 15, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> There is something to be said for a commonality of experience; the idea that all people will have the same thing, that a plumber and a CEO both have the same access to a National Park, that they both drink the same Coca Cola, that their kids play on the same sports teams. More and more, we are losing it.




Definitely. The much more egalitarian culture (with many flaws, as you noted) that existed in the immediate post-World War II era has been going away. Modern society has more and more become like the Gilded Age.



> I am reminded of the Disney Resorts (theme parks), which formerly were a fairly egalitarian bastion*, but have increasingly become a tiered experience; where once you walked up and bought the same ticket as everyone else did, now you have purchase extended hours, stay at resorts on the site, and pay additional money (ahead of time) if you want to go during certain times.




There are lots of other examples of how businesses use price differentiation to try to get customers to reveal their "willingness to pay". Airline tickets used to be a few choices. Now it's pretty much all about how to upsell and charge in various ways for bits and pieces of the ticket that used to be bundled in the price. In a sense, the Disney theme park method is really similar. It's setting the base price for the product that essentially nobody wants, and then charges for what appear to be add-ons that make the product usable, rather than pricing straight out. There are many other examples. Once you know what to look for it's really obvious (and often rather frustrating). 

Many of these kinds of things existed in the Gilded Age but they'd gone away during the mid 20th Century. For example, I once read about a train in France that had third class passengers seated in train cars that lacked roofs. Compare that to modern airline practices!



> Things are changing, and while it's more efficient in some ways, it also can breed resentment.




100% on that.


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## Black Campbell (Sep 15, 2019)

I agree that the "bang for your buck" with RPGs is high. You buy a book or a few and you have entertainment for life. Add to that the value across a number of people is a higher value over ti e than most other forms.

That said, the value of RPGs with higher production values does have diminshing returns as they get more expensive. I love the Tales From the Loop series, where the art is integral to the flavor of the game, and showing it can enhance the game. The opposite, I would suggest, is the new Star Trek game, where the print is far too fine and the color palette not complementary enough to make them easily readable. There's a lot of flash, but the amount of substance is 't there. Additionally, the amount of verbiage can actually detract from finding the rules you need quickly. Charging for 400 pages of scene-setting and short stories isn't more effective and 200 pages of rules and pointed setting material.

The argument that a less expensive product, with less attention to gloss paper and high ink density printing is "cheaper" often misses the quality of the writing and game design -- let's use Free League again -- "Forbidden Lands" is an excellent book, but the pages are white with black type and simple B/W line art. It's easy to read, well laid out, and while it looks "cheap", it!s a high value for the price. Similarly, my "one man shop" only has a few writers, editors and artists and we make our products on a shoestring budget. We specifically chose a similar aesthetic to make the books easier to read (seriously, look around you gaming table...there's a lotta glasses on people's faces), cheap to print bits of if needed, and inexpensive to purchase considering the amount of work that goes into them. But they aren't pretty.


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## ddaley (Sep 15, 2019)

Dire Bare said:


> Thanks for speaking for me. But you are wrong.
> 
> A game can target a small community independent of it's price tag. Many inexpensive PDF-only games enjoy small communities. I'm assuming the player community for Invisible Sun with it's hefty price tag is also relatively small. A game does not have to attract a large community to be successful. What makes a game successful? That depends on the goals of those who wrote and produced it.
> 
> ...




I guess if your goal is to publish something and only have 5 people read it... then good for you.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 15, 2019)

ddaley said:


> I guess if your goal is to publish something and only have 5 people read it... then good for you.




I'm not sure why this is such a problem for you. This is the situation now, some well-received and successful games, ranging from free to very expensive, have small player communities. This is not a hypothetical, this is simply what is. I'm not sure why it bothers you either. How does the existence of a small-press, small-community game impact your own enjoyment of the hobby in any real way?

I'm beginning to think a small-press indie game killed your dog when you where younger.


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## Sword of Spirit (Sep 15, 2019)

Personally, I think the game looks like it's worth $250 as far as the production goes, but the rules themselves could affect that impression if I didn't feel they were of high enough quality.

I bought the Torg Eternity kickstarter boxed set for $200, with a lot of the same sort of things as this one looks like it has. I enjoy the rules of the game, and the physical play aids are a major boost to the experience. You only need the rules, dice and the special card deck to play, but the various other tokens improve the experience greatly. Not only is the tactile element of handling little condition and wound markers enjoyable, but it means that, combined with the variety of included adventures, I almost never have to write down anything (and I'm the GM) during play. I only have a pencil there "just in case". It makes me not want to play it online because I can't use all the toys. But here's the thing: the basic game (assuming you get your cards usable in an online format) can be played just fine and enjoyed without all of that extra stuff at normal RPG pricing (hardcover and pdf available). If you buy all of that extra stuff you really are paying for an upgraded play experience. I'll also point out that I do not have a lot of money and that was a significant investment for me. This isn't something I can do regularly.

In my opinion _that_ is the ideal model for both customers and publishers. A good quality game at a standard price-point, with higher price premium versions being value-added. Bonus points if there is a free quick-start or bare bones (D&D Basic style) pdf for people who aren't ready to commit.

So that's where I'm personally coming from, but I think we need to look at the psychology going on with regards to the various experiences different people are having. Emotional responses are based on actual, understandable, reasons.

Why would anyone resent high-priced RPGs?

This isn't as ridiculous as it might first sound. An RPG is inherently an imagination experience. The rules for the game are just instructions for how to direct our imaginations in certain ways. People reasonably object to paying a lot of money for someone to tell you how to use your own imagination in an enjoyable way. If you want to go a little lighter on the imagination, but stick with the paying for game rules idea: how would you feel if playing a sport required buying a book that explained the rules of the sport? Buying the equipment, sure. Cheap or premium based on what you can afford. The option to buy various extra accessories is always there. But it's the information age, and we absolutely expect to be able to go online and look up _how to play_ the game. And I expect most people would be rather dissatisfied if someone held the IP to the rules for a sport and required you to purchase them.

Most people today don't want to pay for ideas alone. We _really_ don't. This isn't the ancient world where knowledge was available to a few who spent years "earning" the right to know stuff. Physical objects, yes. Art, yes. That all depends on the individual's preferences. But ideas? No. Just no.*

And I agree with that. Heck, even the US Copyright laws agree with that with regards to games.

But, you say, what about novels? Do we feel like we have some kind of right to the story without having to pay for it? I mean, we're probably only going to read it one time even. Well, most people _are_ okay with the idea that they should pay for (or borrow from a friend or library) a novel. Because what you're paying for there is essentially equivalent to the setting element of an RPG. The "fluff". I don't think there is a lot of a negative response about paying for fluff/fiction, as long as people feel that the price is reasonable. And the intuitive comparison there probably _is_ with other forms of fiction. Some of us remember buying paperbacks for $4. Both novels and RPG books have come up in price, but I believe there is a comparison to be made there as far as what consumers intuitively feel the fiction ("fluff") of an RPG is worth. And note that, even there, people generally expect to be able to get the _non-artistic_ elements of the fiction ("just the facts") for free. I'm pretty sure I could look up timelines of the Star Wars Expanded Universe if I were so inclined and find out the basics of what happened without paying for more than my internet access. People, to a greater or lesser degree, respect artists. People _don't_ respect knowledge being kept behind a paywall.

We don't want to pay more than a pittance for rules. We'll pay fair market value for artistic presentation of fiction/fluff. And we'll pay based on our personal preferences for art and toys. And that all makes sense.

I think that's the reality that creators of RPGs should take into account. People feel like they have (essentially) a right to know the rules of an RPG. You might as well put those out for free--it will build good will and it doesn't seem to have negatively impacted the sales of D&D, Pathfinder, FATE, etc. Then compare to fiction to determine what sorts of prices to charge for the setting/adventures/fluff, and compare to other art and enhancements to determine what to charge for those. (I essentially bought the Alpha Omega line as art and setting books, knowing from the reviews I'd read that I probably wouldn't like the rules.)

...

To address another point in the discussion, there is a real issue with GMs bearing a huge share of the cost compared to players. I can't seem to get my players (most of which have more money than me) to even buy stuff for themselves. I've told everyone in my group a couple times about Humble Bundles where you could get the core books+ of a game line for $1, and encouraged them to buy it in case we want to play. Nobody did. I literally just bought them each a copy one time, which is absolutely ridiculous. I have a D&D player who has been playing with me since 2015 and still doesn't have a PHB.

But...at the same time, as a GM, I want to be in control of what I do. If I ask everyone to chip in--or worse, to pay me--then I'd feel obligated to run exactly what they want. I'd feel like my performance is constantly under review by an employer--not the feeling I want in my recreational environment. If I buy everything myself, then they can take or leave what I offer to run, but at least I'm in control of my role-playing vision (so to speak). I get to feel like an artist rather than a service provider.

I'm not sure if there is any "fix" for that GM/Player cost discrepancy, but it does mean the price comparisons that involve splitting costs amongst the group just don't apply for many role-players.

So there is a lot of stuff going on here. There is a market no one begrudges for premium presentations of otherwise standard-price available games. There is a contextually understandable demand for free (or very cheap) access to the _game rules_ of any RPG that comes out. And there is a difficult to address unequal cost distribution amongst players/GMs for many role-players.

* People will pay for ideas in the realm of self-help books or intricate technical manuals...but even that is becoming less necessary and willingness is dropping as the information becomes available for free.


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## Kaodi (Sep 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Good grief, a new AAA video game is what, 75 bucks or so?  And that lasts you what, a hundred hours if you're really lucky?




Skyrim is a bit of an outlier but I have 2099 hours on that game and when I finally have a computer that can comfortably run it on ultra settings I will probably put in at least another 400 more so I can see the whole game "as it was meant to be seen",  . 

In any case I think this conversation is missing a few things. That, or I just missed them being brought up already because I was kinda skimming. 

a) There are always more costs to a game than the listed book price. The Legendary Edition of Skyrim ran me in the ballpark of the aforementioned 75 bucks. But you also need to consider the costs of the computers to play it.  Of course we could probably also make similar arguments about computers: high outlay, incredible $ per hour value. 

b) The price of a mainstream RPG is not dictated by you, veteran gamer with dependable group and a firm grasp of "opportunity cost" . It is determined by the ability of a teenager with uncertain gaming prospects to gamble on an uncertain proposition, and often to convince _their parents_ of that value proposition. I bought my first set of D&D books at a yard sale somewhere around 22 years ago and I have probably spent only a couple of hundred hours in a face to face group in all that time. It is actually kinda sad when I put the numbers that way, :\ . Of course I have put in a lot more time here on the boards and in chat based games and PbP to an extent but I could not tell you what the "value" is there.

c) If you consider that most RPGs are probably priced to reflect the hopes of a reasonable profit then substantially increasing the price without changing the product would lead to a windfall. And where there is a windfall in profits, you breed competition. And competition drives prices down, at least in theory. 

Anyway those are just some thoughts.


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## TheSword (Sep 16, 2019)

I spend a large part of my life playing Warhammer. It is impossible for me to spend even close to what I spent on that on rpgs.

I think the question shouldn’t be about price, but rather about value.

I recently found a set of 10 DL sized adventures. They were about 6 or 8 pages long and were one shots for 3e. Flicking through them I realized that they were frankly atrocious and even though they were only £1.99 each I thought they were far poorer value for money than a £29 campaign book like Tomb of Annihilation.

If a box has attractive unique items that I can’t reproduce myself (the reason I find the Beadle and Grimm sets unappealing) then i say go for it.

If Pathfinder for instance sold AP bundles with the adventures, a couple of campaign sourcebooks, flip maps to accompany and minis for the special characters I’d be down for buying that for £500 or so. I’ll typically play a 1-20 full campaign for 18-24 months. In 8 hour monthly sessions. That’s about 50p an hour per person. I literally can’t think of a cheaper hobby... even buying an expensive set like that.


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## ddaley (Sep 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Good grief, a new AAA video game is what, 75 bucks or so?




Where are you guys buying games?  If you pre-order from Amazon, they are usually $49.  And, video games generally drop in price pretty quickly.  I have spent more hours than I care to admit playing Division and Division 2...


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## Hussar (Sep 16, 2019)

ddaley said:


> Where are you guys buying games?  If you pre-order from Amazon, they are usually $49.  And, video games generally drop in price pretty quickly.  I have spent more hours than I care to admit playing Division and Division 2...



We should be comparing apples to apples then too.  Buying RPG books from Amazon is typically quite a bit cheaper than MRSP.   We've been posting 150 bucks to play D&D, but, that's certainly not true.  That's only true if you pay full price for the core books.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> We should be comparing apples to apples then too.  Buying RPG books from Amazon is typically quite a bit cheaper than MRSP.   We've been posting 150 bucks to play D&D, but, that's certainly not true.  That's only true if you pay full price for the core books.




Not so easy for non Americans. 

 Core sets around $140 USD, via Amazon you might save $10-20 bucks maybe. It's more than a weeks went for say a student.


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## Hussar (Sep 16, 2019)

Sorry @Zardnaar, I have no idea what you just said.  "more than a weeks went for say a student"?  

A week's rent?  maybe?

You're in New Zealand right?  I'm looking at Amazon New Zealand and the core set is 95 NZD with box and DM's Screen.  So, I'm really not sure what you're on about.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Sorry @Zardnaar, I have no idea what you just said.  "more than a weeks went for say a student"?
> 
> A week's rent?  maybe?
> 
> You're in New Zealand right?  I'm looking at Amazon New Zealand and the core set is 95 NZD with box and DM's Screen.  So, I'm really not sure what you're on about.




 It's the postage that kills it. I meant rent.  Postage is around $20 a book afaik we don't have an Amazon centre here

 Last time they did postage free here I bought 13 books. They haven't done that for a while afaik.


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## Hussar (Sep 16, 2019)

But, that's a problem with shipping, not with the price of books...  IOW, that is something that the game producer has zero control over.   What's your point?


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## Zardnaar (Sep 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> But, that's a problem with shipping, not with the price of books...  IOW, that is something that the game producer has zero control over.   What's your point?




It means cheap Amazon isn't an option in a few countries. I buy regardless but some of my new players don't have phb IDK why. Being honest I haven't checked we're only three sessions in.

Main point is some people might get salty at premium and luxury expensive game materials. Have you not noticed current events around the world about things like the 1%? It bleeds over.


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## AndersH (Sep 16, 2019)

*Invisible Sun* is an outlier project with regards to price/quality/volume of content, but there is also issues with the pricing of regular 300+ page hardcover RPG-books.

Especially for customers in non-USA markets. Shipping and VAT is added to the base prices from the USA. Shipping costs goes up with hardcover books and VAT is a multiplier of the base price. 

My case in point is from Denmark. We are a fairly small, very well organized market with a VAT of 25%. All other expenses are fairly high (expensive rent in stores + decent wages for staff). 

This price comparison is based on the prices in physical shops.

WOTCs suggested retail price for D&D Dungeon Masters Guide is US$49.99 [1]

In my local friendly roleplaying store Faraos, the non-discounted price of the DMG is US$74,14 (Danish Kr. 499,-) [2]  

So the price-difference is US$24,15 (equivalent to an increase of 48%). 

With this type of price-modifier, the Invisible Sun would cost US$371. 

Designers can't do anything about this price-hike, but it is relevant to take it into account, when you develop products. 

Anders 

[1] Dungeon Master's Guide | Dungeons & Dragons
[2] Dungeon Master's Guide - Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition | Faraos Cigarer


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## Zardnaar (Sep 16, 2019)

AndersH said:


> *Invisible Sun* is an outlier project with regards to price/quality/volume of content, but there is also issues with the pricing of regular 300+ page hardcover RPG-books.
> 
> Especially for customers in non-USA markets. Shipping and VAT is added to the base prices from the USA. Shipping costs goes up with hardcover books and VAT is a multiplier of the base price.
> 
> ...




Damn thought we had it rough.


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## Deleted member 7015506 (Sep 16, 2019)

@ Hussar

I have to contradict your statement regarding the control of producers towards shipment.
After working 14 years as a dispatcher and transport manager for a large german parcel service I can wholeheartedly say, that your statement is not correct.
The prices for shipping a parcel from A to B, even internationally depends on factors like how many you ship a day, the size/weight, customs handling, the destination and to a great extend of the carrier (just to name a few).
While national shipping is more or less the same prize by every parcel service, on an international basis this changes  drastically. Here the chosen carrier demands a very differing price and from my experience it is not always the best option to rely on the local mail service. Other well known companies offer often better service at a lower price or at least comparable price.
The problem with many producers is, that they rely solely on one carrier, since when they calculate the different shipping wages for different destinations in accordance with the amount of parcels shipped, the average net result points most often to just one carrier for them. This might be a good choice when you think about handling of service/shipment problems, since you have only one company to talk to. But it also means,  that certain destinations are experiencing  higher shipment costs, which is felt by the individual customer. And shipment costs are added to the taxes the customer pays.
So instead of choosing different carriers for different destinations, producers are lazy to a certain degree and ship with just one carrier. In sum, they have a certain control about shipping prices (especially the very large online sellers, who more or less dictate the price for shipment to a certain degree).
Producers and small sellers alike have a control over shipment and may it only be marginal, but it exists.
If you have the time, then start asking different parcel carriers for an offer of their national/international shipping prices. I make a bet, that there are great differences to be observed.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 16, 2019)

Cost me over $300 bucks to get Tome of Beasts, Midgard Worldbook, and Midgard Heroes to NZ. It around $200 USD I think. 

In 1995 PHB plus DMG was one weeks rent on a 3 bedroom house. Back then I saw adds for D&D material in the USA and wanted to cry. $18 PHB iirc.


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## Ulfgeir (Sep 16, 2019)

Yes, it is expensive, but too expensive, maybe. That depends on your preferences, and the amount of stuff you get. 

For example, I spent SEK 2300 (about USD 250]  on the kickstarter for the Swedish verison of Call of Cthulhu 7e. And £200 for the John Carter Kickstarter. Also spent ASU$ 120 on a Jane-Austen rpg that I will most likely never get to play (unless I play it on a convention)

Would I have spent USD$ 250 on this project? Most likely not. Depends on whether or not I would have been interested in the product as such. And the only effect the name of the author has on me in case, is that yes, Monte Cook has done a number of games before. Do I think they are masterpieces, nope, but I do know that he can deliver a product.

edit:  And then add shipping and customs-fees and VAT's to the prise of a game, and it will quickly be very expensive. This is the reason that Evil Hat for example will no longer sell physical products directly to any person outside of the US.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 16, 2019)

Some people can't afford premium products, it's understandable some people might be less than happy. I spend a lot less than I used to.  I don't want to guess how much I've spent on D&D but it's approaching a deposit on a house over 25 years.


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## Earth2Carnifex (Sep 16, 2019)

For me the price I am willing to pay for an RPG is directly related to how much I will play it. A game I will never play but I might be able to use with other systems might be worth a few bucks, but it is certainly not worth my game budget for the whole year. I went all in on GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, while it is a good game, it was not worth $250 for everything, I would have been just as happy with the $50 pledge. When The Fantasy Trip kickstarter opened, I stuck to the base $60 and was very happy with what I received.


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## ddaley (Sep 16, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Some people can't afford premium products, it's understandable some people might be less than happy. I spend a lot less than I used to.  I don't want to guess how much I've spent on D&D but it's approaching a deposit on a house over 25 years.




I have also spent a lot on D&D over the years... mostly in the last 15, though I began playing around 1980.  I bought a fair amount of material in the 80s as well.  But, lately, I have spent a lot on kickstarter projects.  I like investing in the projects and have backed some at higher levels.  I just don't want to see more expensive books becoming the norm.

My son just started playing with a group of kids from his high school.  They are all new to D&D (except for my son).  Groups like that would disappear if books were more expensive.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Sep 16, 2019)

Earth2Carnifex said:


> For me the price I am willing to pay for an RPG is directly related to how much I will play it.




I haven't always been that way with regards to RPG purchases (and am not completely) but yeah, in general, that's the way to slant it, especially when budget and/or space is limited.


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## billd91 (Sep 16, 2019)

Earth2Carnifex said:


> For me the price I am willing to pay for an RPG is directly related to how much I will play it. A game I will never play but I might be able to use with other systems might be worth a few bucks, but it is certainly not worth my game budget for the whole year.




I get that - but I think sometimes that doesn't always play out. I may *plan* or *want* to play it more at the time I buy it than actually happens and am left holding the bag. There are purchases I've decided, long after the transaction, that were more expensive than the use I got out it.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 16, 2019)

Kaodi said:


> b) The price of a mainstream RPG is not dictated by you, veteran gamer with dependable group and a firm grasp of "opportunity cost" . It is determined by the ability of a teenager with uncertain gaming prospects to gamble on an uncertain proposition, and often to convince _their parents_ of that value proposition. I bought my first set of D&D books at a yard sale somewhere around 22 years ago and I have probably spent only a couple of hundred hours in a face to face group in all that time. It is actually kinda sad when I put the numbers that way, :\ . Of course I have put in a lot more time here on the boards and in chat based games and PbP to an extent but I could not tell you what the "value" is there.




No.

The price of an RPG product is most certainly NOT dictated by the perceived ability of a teenager to afford it. Teenagers are most certainly part of the gaming community and a demographic that can grow the gaming community, but they are not the only demographic targeted by various RPG games. In fact, I would argue that the most mainstream game of all, D&D, does not see teenagers as the metric by which prices are set. D&D is targeted towards adults while remaining friendly to teenagers. In years past D&D certainly was heavily marketed towards teenagers, but not today.

And of course there are plenty of games out there that don't even take teenagers into account at all. Not for pricing, content, or anything. I'm sure Monte Cook Games wouldn't mind if teenagers end up playing Invisible Sun, but I highly doubt they designed any aspect of the game to appeal specifically to that demographic.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Sep 16, 2019)

Kaodi said:


> b) The price of a mainstream RPG is not dictated by you, veteran gamer with dependable group and a firm grasp of "opportunity cost" . It is determined by the ability of a teenager with uncertain gaming prospects to gamble on an uncertain proposition, and often to convince _their parents_ of that value proposition.




I think you're over-generalizing from your own experience, or at least likely quite out of date experience if it wasn't your own. That may have been true quite some time ago (though I doubt that), but now, I _really_ doubt it. The purchasers that drive the market are adults buying for themselves and their own groups.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 16, 2019)

ddaley said:


> I have also spent a lot on D&D over the years... mostly in the last 15, though I began playing around 1980.  I bought a fair amount of material in the 80s as well.  But, lately, I have spent a lot on kickstarter projects.  I like investing in the projects and have backed some at higher levels.  I just don't want to see more expensive books becoming the norm.
> 
> My son just started playing with a group of kids from his high school.  They are all new to D&D (except for my son).  Groups like that would disappear if books were more expensive.




WotC most certainly accounts for this by offering the D&D basic rules as a free PDF and also with the inexpensive Starter Set and Essentials Set. But the core books remain relatively pricey, but probably underpriced still for their value. Any game publisher has to balance many factors when setting pricing, and making sure their product sells at a price their target market is willing (and able) to pay is ONE factor.

But how does a luxury game such as Invisible Sun change the availability of D&D and other games for those with limited budgets (teenagers, others)? How does the option to purchase a fancy game for $250 keep kids from getting into a different game that has a much lower entry point cost? You could argue that the success of games like Invisible Sun encourages more luxury products to be marketed to the gaming community, perhaps like the Beadle & Grimm's accessory kits for recent D&D adventures. But still, how does more options in quality and price prevent or limit the low-end of pricing from continuing? Is D&D in danger of going "full luxury", doing away with the free basic rules and cheap starter sets? Or mid-priced core books and adventures? In favor of Beadle & Grimm's for everybody? I'm not worried in the slightest. WotC is doing a good job with their partners at offering D&D to a variety of people with different tastes and budgets, and they are reaping the success of that strategy without sacrificing "the kids" or "the poors" in the process.

Will those scrappy teenagers miss out on playing Invisible Sun? Probably. I'm not losing any sleep over it, as there are plenty of other games they can easily afford to play. Like D&D (best game ever).


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## Dire Bare (Sep 16, 2019)

AndersH said:


> Especially for customers in non-USA markets. Shipping and VAT is added to the base prices from the USA. Shipping costs goes up with hardcover books and VAT is a multiplier of the base price.
> 
> My case in point is from Denmark. We are a fairly small, very well organized market with a VAT of 25%. All other expenses are fairly high (expensive rent in stores + decent wages for staff).




Nobody likes to pay taxes. But without them, society could not function. Those in countries with high VAT or other taxes certainly pay more for their D&D books than others, but you pay those higher taxes on almost everything, not just D&D books. And you get (ideally, at least) a lot back in return in government provided social services.

A game company that is aggressively marketing world-wide certainly does need to take into account how taxes can inflate the prices of their products, but most RPG companies really don't do this. World-wide sales are nice and to be desired, but are an afterthought and not the core market. WotC is an US company focused on sales to US gamers. They have only recently started their efforts in selling D&D in foreign markets, and there are a lot of challenges in this area, including translations and pricing.

Ultimately, when purchasing a product from another country, expect to pay more (even before taxes). It's how things work. I live in the states, and when I purchase something from another country I expect to pay more than the sticker price with currency conversion, shipping, taxes, tariffs, and etc. A lot of these added costs are also fluid and constantly changing. I've picked up some super cool "not-Warhammer" miniatures from Eastern European companies, and the total price (taxes, shipping, etc) was a part of my decision making process, but I also didn't begrudge or blame the company selling me the miniatures. The inflated price was simply a cost of doing business. Certainly I don't buy foreign products all the time for that main reason. Should those small miniature studios take all of this into account before setting prices? Sure, but it shouldn't and won't be the major factor.

If WotC wants to seriously grow D&D in foreign countries, should they up their efforts to find ways around these problems? Sure, but they can't sell things at such a low price their own profits are endangered, despite whatever taxes are involved.

Does that have any impact on luxury gaming products like Invisible Sun? Only if the gaming publisher has a strong desire to market outside their home country. And again, due to the challenges, most don't.


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## Henry (Sep 17, 2019)

With regard to premium or ‘luxury’ games, I’m fine with them. People like Monte aren’t selling bread or a life-sustaining drug - they’re selling a game - of which there are hundreds of choices. I can’t afford a Lexus, but I don’t need a Lexus in order to have a car. (Once you get into the issue of affordabilities of necessities such as food and transportation, that’s a totally different argument beyond the scope of this discussion.) But starting to begrudge the existence or right of premium products to exist, as suggested some do from the original article, just because there isn’t a bargain-priced version of same, or because it’s not in a pirate-able form, to me is like complaining that the $1 hamburger is not as tasty as the $10 hamburger, and saying the restaurant should offer a $4 burger with the same quality. If they say “no”, then so be it.


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## DragonBelow (Sep 17, 2019)

Monte Cook is no stranger to extremely high production values (See Ptolus, Numenera, and etc). This product obviously fits the bill too, I would say exceeds it even, but that alone is not enough to draw my interest.


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## aramis erak (Sep 18, 2019)

Retreater said:


> I play Warhammer. I laugh at your concept of "expensive."



I remember when Warhammer was the inexpensive minis option.


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## aramis erak (Sep 18, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It means cheap Amazon isn't an option in a few countries. I buy regardless but some of my new players don't have phb IDK why. Being honest I haven't checked we're only three sessions in.
> 
> Main point is some people might get salty at premium and luxury expensive game materials. Have you not noticed current events around the world about things like the 1%? It bleeds over.



It's not even a given _inside _the US. Many online points of sale for US companies do not ship to Alaska or Hawaii, even tho USPS is available throughout both states. I've talked with several from the territories, too... and it's the same issue for Guam, US Virgin Islands, Diego Garcia. I've seen a lot of evidence of similar issues for Puerto Rico. 

Some simply will not do business with these states/territories, others will insist on UPS or Fedex instead of the cheaper US Postal Service. One I did business with insisted that only DHL delivered to my neighborhood...  

the most annoying was the company that waited 2 weeks for the "needed customs forms for Alaska"...of which, for a shipper in the midwest US, are none.


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## TransTomgirl (Apr 30, 2020)

I love Monte. As a kid,he was my hero. He is arguably the most innovative talent that Adventure fiction has ever seen, next to George Lucas. Monte is pulling a scam. Can't offer the experience without the physical swag? He already did. This is a Numenara copycat. And why is the Invisible Sun pdf marked at 100 bucks? That's still more than double the price of a hardcover lavishly produced Star Wars core book from FFG. Still about double with a sale. Monte is being vain glorious and we fell for it. Top seller on drive thru, because we allowed this guy to exploit his legend. It's one thing for prices to go up by a ten spot as we get higher production values. But what Monte's doing here is just a con.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 30, 2020)

TransTomgirl said:


> I love Monte. As a kid,he was my hero. He is arguably the most innovative talent that Adventure fiction has ever seen, next to George Lucas. Monte is pulling a scam. Can't offer the experience without the physical swag? He already did. This is a Numenara copycat. And why is the Invisible Sun pdf marked at 100 bucks? That's still more than double the price of a hardcover lavishly produced Star Wars core book from FFG. Still about double with a sale. Monte is being vain glorious and we fell for it. Top seller on drive thru, because we allowed this guy to exploit his legend. It's one thing for prices to go up by a ten spot as we get higher production values. But what Monte's doing here is just a con.




Monte's pulling a fast one here? A con, a scam? I can't roll my eyes hard enough.


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## TransTomgirl (Apr 30, 2020)

Dire Bare said:


> Monte's pulling a fast one here? A con, a scam? I can't roll my eyes hard enough.



If that's how you feel,than spend an entire game line worth of funds on one product. Monte is playing a game called capitalism. Even luxury licensed products rarely check in at this price point. When they do, it's not for an entry product. Movie prop recreations have cost less.


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## Umbran (Apr 30, 2020)

Folks...

Do remember that this thread is half a year old.


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## TransTomgirl (Apr 30, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Folks...
> 
> Do remember that this thread is half a year old.



Still a 99 buck pdf listed,so there's current relevance.


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## Doc_Klueless (Apr 30, 2020)

TransTomgirl said:


> ... Monte is pulling a scam. ... But what Monte's doing here is just a con.



If it's a top seller on drivethru as you indicate, then he's charging the right price for it.

Just because you won't or can't spend a hundred bucks on an item does not indicate some sort of trickery, thievery, scam or con on the part of the seller.


TransTomgirl said:


> ... Even luxury licensed products rarely check in at this price point. When they do, it's not for an entry product. Movie prop recreations have cost less.



 And? So, it's expensive. Apparently, it's more than you'd like to spend. The maker/seller of an item is in no way obliged to sell it at the price you'd like or can afford.


TransTomgirl said:


> Still a 99 buck pdf listed, so there's current relevance.



Aaaand? Look, you've got three whole messages on this forum site. All three are whining about someone selling something that you don't need at a price you don't want to pay.

So don't pay it. Move on. Spend the money on something else you'd like.


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## TransTomgirl (Apr 30, 2020)

Doc_Klueless said:


> If it's a top seller on drivethru as you indicate, then he's charging the right price for it.
> 
> Just because you won't or can't spend a hundred bucks on an item does not indicate some sort of trickery, thievery, scam or con on the part of the seller.
> And? So, it's expensive. Apparently, it's more than you'd like to spend. The maker/seller of an item is in no way obliged to sell it at the price you'd like or can afford.
> ...



It's called being parasocial. He crafts an image of being a fellow geek friend so he can inflate his price point. It's wrong. A luxury pricing trend would also be unhealthy for the hobby, introducing a class divide that realms of imagination don't need. Monte decided to cash in on the community that has always supported him, with no regard for the residual effect it could have on that community. Don't like my posts, find another thread.


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## Morrus (May 1, 2020)

TransTomgirl said:


> A luxury pricing trend would also be unhealthy for the hobby



Actually, I disagree. The emergence of a (admittedly small) luxury RPG sector is a sign of health of the industry as a whole. 



> Don't like my posts, find another thread.




And that's getting rude. Tone it down, please.


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## TransTomgirl (May 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Actually, I disagree. The emergence of a (admittedly small) luxury RPG sector is a sign of health of the industry as a whole.
> 
> 
> 
> And that's getting rude. Tone it down, please.



He was equally rude to me than. You guys have an advertising deal with Monte? They've snarked throughout. That's fine, but don't ask me to not snark back.


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## Morrus (May 1, 2020)

TransTomgirl said:


> You guys have an advertising deal with Monte?



OK, that's _enough_. Don't post in this thread again, please.


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## TransTomgirl (May 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> OK, that's _enough_. Don't post in this thread again, please.



OMG you actually do! Please go naughty word yourself.


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## Morrus (May 1, 2020)

TransTomgirl will not be posting any further. Please do not respond to their posts.


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## teitan (May 1, 2020)

Too expensive is relative. When I have to pay $50 for four pages of content then it is too expensive to justify buying the product for a handful of rules for sea faring or vehicles for example. $50 dollars for Xanathar? Fair. It's about content use. If someone buys Ghosts of Saltmarsh and is happy with their full purchase great, that's awesome. But if you aren't going to use the rest of the content it is too expensive when you take into account that we have limited budgets. It's all about relative value to the individual. RPGs are a luxury market sure but 5-10 years ago we were actively measuring value based on page count to cover price for a reason and we've lost that reason. I think most pdfs are overpriced when you consider what it would cost to print them later as well. That new 40K RPG looks sweet but it would cost  more to print it than it would to just buy a hard copy.


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## Doc_Klueless (May 1, 2020)

TransTomgirl said:


> Don't like my posts, find another thread.



Unfortunately for you, this is *NOT* your thread. *You* don't get to tell me where to post. So, follow your own spoutings: Don't like my posts, find another thread.

Sorry, Morrus. Didn't keep reading and see your red text. I won't send any more posts her way.


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## Doc_Klueless (May 1, 2020)

teitan said:


> It's all about relative value to the individual.



I can see that. There are many RPG and other hobby products that I don't think contain enough value (for me) in relation to the price. But, I come to places like EN World, and I see that others are getting a ton of enjoyment out of them. 

When that happens, I think: "Well, I guess it _was_ a fair price!"

So I look at Monte's work and I think: "Whew! $100?! Too rich for my blood!" and not: "$100?!?!?! That thievin' bastard!" Because, apparently, lots of somebodies out there are buying it and getting $100 worth of enjoyment out of it.


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## atanakar (May 1, 2020)

Seven years ago I had to get my gaming spending under control. I was buying to many different rpgs, wargames and boardgames. I had a large inventory of unused games and unassembled miniatures.

My solution was to set up an annual budget and never go beyond that. Once I buy a game I consider myself repaid for the amount of 25$ per hour that I spend actually playing the said game. So after 4 hours a 100$ game has been repaid.

At the end of summer I do an inventory. I resell games that have not been touch for a year, unless of course it is a classic. The profit goes towards next year's budget. Thus reducing the total amount of new cash I put in the budget.

So, if I really want a really expensive game, I need to make sure I will play a number of hours at least equal to its value divided by 25$. A 300$ KS is not that expensive when you put it that way. But if you don't play it, you wasted hard earned money. No other way to put it. You have to be honest with yourself.


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## teitan (May 1, 2020)

Doc_Klueless said:


> I can see that. There are many RPG and other hobby products that I don't think contain enough value (for me) in relation to the price. But, I come to places like EN World, and I see that others are getting a ton of enjoyment out of them.
> 
> When that happens, I think: "Well, I guess it _was_ a fair price!"
> 
> So I look at Monte's work and I think: "Whew! $100?! Too rich for my blood!" and not: "$100?!?!?! That thievin' bastard!" Because, apparently, lots of somebodies out there are buying it and getting $100 worth of enjoyment out of it.




Exactly!


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## Hussar (May 1, 2020)

Heh, years and years ago, I bought the World's Largest Dungeon.  At the time, it was well over a hundred bucks, plus I got reamed on shipping.  

Still the absolute best investment I ever made in gaming.  We got hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of that module. I couldn't possibly beat it.

So, yeah, if you're actually using the product, price doesn't matter as much as you might think.


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## Von Ether (May 1, 2020)

While I thought the pitch was reasonable, "You're just paying for the whole gaming line at once instead of spread out." (And I guarantee that I have spent $200 to $300 over the years for an entire gaming line), the second I heard the price, it was like switch went off. "Not for me, but thank you."

And that's all I think I have to say for a necro-ed thread that's over half a year old - 'cause I ain't changing its diapers.


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## jasper (May 1, 2020)

Have you paid all your bills, got gas in the car to last to next paycheck, and the pantry is full. Then spend what you want. Should you have a budget on what you spend? Yes. When I was recovering from bankruptcy, it was recommended I don't spend more than 2% of my take home for entertainment which hobbies fall into.  So far this year I under than. But DragonCon is coming.


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## eyeheartawk (May 1, 2020)

A $100 PDF is exclusionary for no real purpose. It's being charged because he can. 

 At least with the physical bits and bobbles you could point at and go "See these lavishly produced items require the price". Look at the Yellow King PDF, also very extensive including many PDF files and soundtrack CDs etc for virtually half the price. This doesn't even compete with lavishly produced _physical _books/packages in the marketplace on price. 

So, on this May Day, I find it only appropriate that this comes back up. Remember, as some German beardo once said, " The history of all hitherto existing RPG pricing is the history of nerd class struggles."


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## Doc_Klueless (May 1, 2020)

jasper said:


> But DragonCon is coming.



OMG. DragonCon. Pure bliss. 

Now there is an example of how I spend to much money on my hobbies. My cosplay costumes usually cost me way more money than all my RPGs combined (and that's just on the Worbla!!!)! LOL.


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## hawkeyefan (May 1, 2020)

There’s a balancing act for stuff like this, I think. The PDF price has to be relative to the physical price. 

Ultimately, if people will pay that much for a game, then that’s what they should charge. I’ve been just intrigued enough by Invisible Sun to remain aware of it, but I personally am not going to spend that much on a game I’m not even sure my group would enjoy. But there are plenty of folks who  will and who have. 

It’s not a scam in any way to have the equivalent of a luxury item. If it’s too expensive, don’t buy it. Pretty simple. If you feel you really have to have it, maybe get the whole group to contribute. Or save up over time.


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## Umbran (May 1, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> A $100 PDF is exclusionary for no real purpose. It's being charged because he can.




Do remember that the price of a product is not just based on the media the product comes in.  The price includes all work for that product.  So, (pulling numbers out of the air) if Monte does a normal PDF product in two months by himself, and this one took six months, and three other people he doesn't normally work with, that's all going to be in the cost.  

If this pdf is bigger, better, includes more resources for the GM to use than a standard pdf, then it should cost more than a lesser pdf.


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## darjr (May 1, 2020)

I think we get off cheap for the amount of work that goes into RPG products.


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Do remember that the price of a product is not just based on the media the product comes in.  The price includes all work for that product.  So, (pulling numbers out of the air) if Monte does a normal PDF product in two months by himself, and this one took six months, and three other people he doesn't normally work with, that's all going to be in the cost.
> 
> If this pdf is bigger, better, includes more resources for the GM to use than a standard pdf, then it should cost more than a lesser pdf.




All true. There are other factors that go into pricing digital media also. Pretty sure it's all been covered in this necro-thread pages ago.

Like any product, a digital book (PDF format or otherwise) can be overpriced. Fans and reviewers can critique price and argue why it is set too high. However, I have not seen any arguments in this thread or elsewhere that have convinced me that the Invisible Sun game, print and/or digital, is overpriced. None. The only things the "too high" arguments here get me to do is roll my eyes so hard I'm making an optometrist appointment.


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## Stormonu (May 1, 2020)

I think the most I (over)payed for a RPG item was for Throne of Bloodstone ($100), before the days it was available as a PDF.  Ptoltus may have been the most expensive I paid retail price for.  I had considered buying Invisible Sun, but the opportunity slipped me by and I don't think I'd have gotten anyone in my play group to give it a go.

It's nice if a product falls into your budget, but I don't begrudge a publisher for putting whatever price they feel on their product.  I can always refuse to buy it at that price (and laugh at the price - I'm looking at you, GW), and there's enough variety of existing games that my enjoyment don't hinge on any specific product.  Can't afford the (new) Aliens RPG?  You can make a good go of it with a tweaked Savage Worlds, GURPS or even Call of Cthulhu if you can find it cheaper/already have the system.  Or even make up your own - that's what I did back in the 80's.


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## eyeheartawk (May 1, 2020)

Dire Bare said:


> Like any product, a digital book (PDF format or otherwise) can be overpriced. Fans and reviewers can critique price and argue why it is set too high. However, I have not seen any arguments in this thread or elsewhere that have convinced me that the Invisible Sun game, print and/or digital, is overpriced. None. The only things the "too high" arguments here get me to do is roll my eyes so hard I'm making an optometrist appointment.




So, this exists. By comparison I would say it's overpriced. The price exists to be exclusionary. This is by design. Invisble Sun is a $250 luxury product. Luxury products by design engender exclusivity by exclusion, this is done by price. This is why the perceived value of something like a Mercedes, say, is higher than that of Ford. Since this is true of the physical version if the PDF were priced at a more reasonable level it would lessen that exclusive, luxury image of the physical product. Not to mention that then nobody would likely buy the needlessly excessive bits and bobbles of the physical copy, which I'm sure ties up quite a bit of capital if it remains unsold.

While the above is broadly true of any "market" is that what we want our little corner of a _hobby_ to be? To me, and I would wager many others, the beauty of RPGs is that you could with nothing more than a ratty hand me down rulebook and some $4 dice, play _forever_ without any more investment than some paper and pencils.  This is an egalitarian virtue, in my eyes, and seeing such blatant, soulless pumping of margins for the above outlined reasons, which excludes the less economically advantaged just _because _and _purposefully _bothers me.

Is it a minor deal all things considered? Sure. Are there many alternatives on the market that are sensibly priced and even free? Yeah, sure. Can we comment on the similarities seen between this and how our society broadly conducts itself vis-a-vis the economy and the social effects this has? Yeah, bruh. Does that mean we can't whinge and comment broadly about the negatives aspect of this development? Naw.

Also dude, your eye condition sounds serious. Get that checked out quick. My eyes rolled out of my head once from rolling too hard and I couldn't find them for awhile. It was a whole Keystone Cops thing.


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## Doc_Klueless (May 1, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> While the above is broadly true of any "market" is that what we want our little corner of a _hobby_ to be?



Sure. Sounds fine to me. Because, as you mention, there are lots of RPGs that fall within lots of different price ranges. So it bothers me not one iota that there are expensive RPG products as long as there remains inexpensive RPG products.

It's sorta like archery, which is one of my other hobbies. I'd love a really expensive bow and other equipment. I bought a less expensive one and, guess what, I'm still having fun... (and I'm a better shot than a lot of those who bought the expensive stuff, but that's another story.  ). I do not begrudge the more expensive equipment because I can still do what I like, just not with the fancy toys.



eyeheartawk said:


> To me, and I would wager many others, the beauty of RPGs is that you could with nothing more than a ratty hand me down rulebook and some $4 dice, play _forever_ without any more investment than some paper and pencils.



And expensive RPG products such as this do nothing to stop that. You just can't do it with *this one particular RPG.*



eyeheartawk said:


> This is an egalitarian virtue, in my eyes, and seeing such blatant, soulless pumping of margins for the above outlined reasons, which excludes the less economically advantaged just _because _and _purposefully _bothers me.



This is not food, medicine or shelter. It's a game. A game! And I will not tell a creator of a game and/or fiction what they must charge. The marketplace will do that all by itself. But to classify making a game expensive as *blatant, soulless pumping of margins *makes me wonder for more about the complainer than the producer.

I mean, do people really _need_ this game? Is there not something else they could play and have fun with? What harm does not being able to afford this one, particular game do? Answer: probably none beyond hurting feelings.


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## Morrus (May 1, 2020)




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## LordEntrails (May 1, 2020)




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## TwoSix (May 1, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> While the above is broadly true of any "market" is that what we want our little corner of a _hobby_ to be? To me, and I would wager many others, the beauty of RPGs is that you could with nothing more than a ratty hand me down rulebook and some $4 dice, play _forever_ without any more investment than some paper and pencils.  This is an egalitarian virtue, in my eyes, and seeing such blatant, soulless pumping of margins for the above outlined reasons, which excludes the less economically advantaged just _because _and _purposefully _bothers me.



I mean, sure, but then you're arguing against the necessity of luxury items and consumptive consumerism _in general._  That's a discussion worth having, but it's a far bigger topic than what any one producer is doing.

I don't think there's anything about RPGs that would morally obligate them to be more egalitarian than any other consumer product.


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## ddaley (May 1, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Do remember that the price of a product is not just based on the media the product comes in.  The price includes all work for that product.  So, (pulling numbers out of the air) if Monte does a normal PDF product in two months by himself, and this one took six months, and three other people he doesn't normally work with, that's all going to be in the cost.
> 
> If this pdf is bigger, better, includes more resources for the GM to use than a standard pdf, then it should cost more than a lesser pdf.




I am not sure that argument really works with PDFs.  Once the PDF has been created, then it costs them virtually zero to "produce" more and send it out... assuming they are selling it through their own site.  If they were to charge $50 instead of $100, they may get 5x as many sales (guestimate on my part)... actually making more money.  My point is, that by lowering the price, they could actually make more than by setting an artificially high price.  

It seems the are trying to make their product a "status" type RPG.


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## billd91 (May 1, 2020)

ddaley said:


> I am not sure that argument really works with PDFs.  Once the PDF has been created, then it costs them virtually zero to "produce" more and send it out... assuming they are selling it through their own site.  If they were to charge $50 instead of $100, they may get 5x as many sales (guestimate on my part)... actually making more money.  My point is, that by lowering the price, they could actually make more than by setting an artificially high price.
> 
> It seems the are trying to make their product a "status" type RPG.




Probably not. Pricing PDFs is a bit more complex that pricing physical units. If you print 1000 copies of something, you set the priced by dividing up the cost of the printing and the other production costs over that 1000 copies (or whatever % of that you expect will be final sales vs losses due to shipping damage, etc). 

With PDFs, it's true that you don't have to worry about printing costs - but you're at more of a quandary about how much of the production cost each of the PDFs must bear in its price. That doesn't mean there aren't ways to make some estimates. I'm sure Monte Cook Games has pretty good data on PDF sales of their other products and can use that as a measure of their likely ceiling for Invisible Sun sales if given a similar price. And if Invisible Sun cost more to produce than any of those products, then they *know* they have to set the price higher to recoup the production cost... which, in turn, probably means fewer sales, driving the realistic expectation of units sold down.

That said, we do know that MCG was setting out to make this a fairly lavish production. And one of the ways you do that is to not sell it for peanuts, no matter how many you expect to sell. I think he is trying to build a market of luxury game materials. It's a market I have no interest in, personally, because I don't have the money to burn if my players aren't interested. I just don't see the value of participating in a luxury product beyond a certain level (I do prefer a better hotel to a fleabag one - but super luxurious is just gilding the lily). And Invisible Sun, for me, is well past that level.

But a con? No, I don't think so.


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## ddaley (May 1, 2020)

billd91 said:


> ...I think he is trying to build a market of luxury game materials....




I think we are saying the same thing.  This is what I meant by saying that they are trying to create a "status" RPG.  I don't think their price point was set where it was in order to make more money.


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## Morrus (May 1, 2020)

ddaley said:


> I am not sure that argument really works with PDFs.  Once the PDF has been created, then it costs them virtually zero to "produce" more and send it out... assuming they are selling it through their own site.  If they were to charge $50 instead of $100, they may get 5x as many sales (guestimate on my part)... actually making more money.  My point is, that by lowering the price, they could actually make more than by setting an artificially high price.
> 
> It seems the are trying to make their product a "status" type RPG.




It depends how much it costs you to create it and how long it will take to profit on it. Distribution is just one cost.

I have PDF products on sale which are years old which haven’t made a profit yet.

It’s really not as simple as the distribution cost.


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## ddaley (May 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> It depends how much it costs you to create it and how long it will take to profit on it. Distribution is just one cost.
> 
> I have PDF products on sale which are years old which haven’t made a profit yet.
> 
> It’s really not as simple as the distribution cost.




Admittedly, I have not produced a PDF and attempted to sell it... but, from the consumer point of view, I am saying that my likelihood of buying a product is non-linear.  If I am interested in something, I am probably (more than) 5x likely to buy a PDF for $50 as I am to buy it at $100.  Based on my own buying habits, I am extrapolating to say that they can probably reach a profit more quickly by charging half as much... because, they will get way more than twice the number of sales to make up for the lower price.

I have purchased a LOT of RPG material over the years, but I don't think I have ever come close to spending $100 on a PDF (and likely never will).


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## Morrus (May 1, 2020)

ddaley said:


> Based on my own buying habits, I am extrapolating to say that they can probably reach a profit more quickly by charging half as much... because, they will get way more than twice the number of sales to make up for the lower price.



Sure, there's a graph, but it's not that basic. I mean, they use all the data they have and pitch the price point where they feel it will make the most profit.  I'm sure Ferrari would sell a million Ferraris if they sold them for $1000 each, but... well, you know where this is going.

Clearly they don't believe that they will get way more than twice the number of sales at half the price. Maybe you know better, maybe you don't. But that's the strategy they've decided on.


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## ddaley (May 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> ...I'm sure Ferrari would sell a million Ferraris if they sold them for $1000 each, but... well, you know where this is going.




But, we are talking PDF versions here.  They would obviously be taking a loss on each sale.



Morrus said:


> Clearly they don't believe that they will get way more than twice the number of sales at half the price. Maybe you know better, maybe you don't. But that's the strategy they've decided on.




And, I would be quite surprised if they didn't get more than twice the sales at half the price.  I certainly don't know anyone who would drop $100 on the PDF.

I have 10,684 files under my RPG folder (and that doesn't include what I have purchased on D&D Beyond or Fantasy Grounds).  I guarantee that none of those were over $50.


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## Morrus (May 1, 2020)

ddaley said:


> And, I would be quite surprised if they didn't get more than twice the sales at half the price.




I guess you should apply for a job with them then!


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## ddaley (May 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I guess you should apply for a job with them then!




If they have need for a RESTful web service Java developer... or, someone who can throw out wild speculation


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## Sword of Spirit (May 2, 2020)

I think high priced pdfs run a risk of encouraging piracy. Now, this is coming from me and I'm normally the one posting that piracy isn't really a factor to take account of in RPG pdfs. Why do I think it's different in this case?

Goodwill. When it comes to content that can be digitally copied, goodwill is your real copy protection. I'm not going to go into all my philosophy about consumer response and such, but I want to say that if people are looking at a digitally copiable product and the price point is high enough that it transcends the barrier from "not really worth it to me" to "Seriously? They're really trying to charge that amount?" they lose that goodwill protection.


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## Dire Bare (May 2, 2020)

Sword of Spirit said:


> I think high priced pdfs run a risk of encouraging piracy. Now, this is coming from me and I'm normally the one posting that piracy isn't really a factor to take account of in RPG pdfs. Why do I think it's different in this case?
> 
> Goodwill. When it comes to content that can be digitally copied, goodwill is your real copy protection. I'm not going to go into all my philosophy about consumer response and such, but I want to say that if people are looking at a digitally copiable product and the price point is high enough that it transcends the barrier from "not really worth it to me" to "Seriously? They're really trying to charge that amount?" they lose that goodwill protection.




Meh. Piracy is a factor when determining pricing, sure. But pirates are gonna pirate whether you give your stuff away for free or charge hundreds of dollars. Honest folks, not so much. Will a higher priced digital book encourage an increase in piracy of your book relative to the income sales generate? Kinda hard to quantify. It could certainly make the difference in the decision of some individual pirates, the ones who try and justify their piracy with flawed logic . . . but how many folks is that? Again, hard to quantify.


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## Darth Solo (May 2, 2020)

Looks like a dated thread with a user calling others cheap for not buying an overpriced rpg with so-so reviews.

The reviews were exactly why I didn't buy it: buying a bad rpg happens. We've all done it. Spending over $200 for a bad rpg is a huge mistake. I've yet to see positive comments from a group that played it, while seeing several positive comments from those who just have it.

Did I spend $300 for two Rules Cyclopedias in the last three years? Yep, and I'm having fun running the system right now with it. 

You call my hobby "luxury", yet psychologists, military professionals and marketing analysts use rpgs of their own to solve problems. So, I see it as a form of "technical methodology" that crosses a variety of human experience as a useful tool.

Your idea of "luxury" is a poorly-conceived idea of cultural utility.


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## dragoner (May 2, 2020)

Dire Bare said:


> Meh. Piracy is a factor when determining pricing, sure. But pirates are gonna pirate whether you give your stuff away for free or charge hundreds of dollars. Honest folks, not so much. Will a higher priced digital book encourage an increase in piracy of your book relative to the income sales generate? Kinda hard to quantify. It could certainly make the difference in the decision of some individual pirates, the ones who try and justify their piracy with flawed logic . . . but how many folks is that? Again, hard to quantify.




Around 2/3rds of theft or loss from a business are by its own employees, according to the texts in business school. I know from seeing it done to RPG publishers, it looks to be done by disgruntled employees. That leaves the other 3rd to be done by customers, potential or not; for myself, I don't do it because I don't want anything I can't buy. Then again someone else's financial circumstances might not let them spend $200 on a game, I think they are luxuries, and of course for that much money one wants to get what they feel is valuable for their money. Though the terms of piracy can get nebulous, sharing with players at the table, virtual or not? Loaning a book isn't piracy. Plus people wanting to preview the game, advertising. Then the question of goodwill, which in itself is an intangible asset to a business, and which is often valued at sale of the business.


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## hawkeyefan (May 2, 2020)

I don’t think it makes business sense to put out a product in one format at one price point and then another format at a drastically reduced price point.

It’s the reason digital comics cost the same as physical ones at the time of release. Or why audiobooks and e-books are comparable to the cost of a physical book upon release. 

I feel like the cost of the PDFs for Invisible Sun and The Yellow King are in line with other PDF costs compared to the physical media, aren’t they? 

If your physical game is $250, then the PDF has to be a certain percentage of that, doesn’t it?


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## dragoner (May 2, 2020)

Pricing is complicated, with all sorts of formulas, and all that. Multiple classes have units on pricing in a retail environment.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (May 3, 2020)

How expensive is TOO expensive can only be determined by the individual consumer.  However, the higher the cost you place on your product the more of a barrier to purchase it becomes.  And consumers will shy away from really high-cost all-in-one packages, regardless of "bang for buck", because in order to find out if it's really worth their money they have to put SO much more up front.  Would I enjoy *Invisible Sun* and find it to be worth the money?  _Maybe_.  But I'm not going to pay that much for a pig in a poke to find out.


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## Morrus (May 3, 2020)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> However, the higher the cost you place on your product the more of a barrier to purchase it becomes.




Dang, _somebody _went to an economics class!


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## teitan (May 4, 2020)

This thread led me to do a deeper investigation of Invisible Sun. I’m going to buy it in two weeks or so.


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## Zardnaar (May 4, 2020)

I'm not buying it at any price but it's fine.

 It's a new product aimed at the deluxe end of things.

If 6E land tomorrow at a $200 price point would be F you though no matter what they did with it. 

 A deluxe version made out of leather/ gold/whatever though is fine. Price gouging to me is cranking the price on something that is normally cheaper. If it's expensive right from the get go so be it.


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## MGibster (May 4, 2020)

I determine whether I wish to purchase an RPG based on three criteria. 


Will I actually play this game?  
Do I want this game taking up shelf space in my home?
Am I willing to pay the asking price?
It's amazing to me how few times #3 is actually the problem.  My FLGS has two massive sales throughout the year, and in December 2019 the Conan RPG and many supplemental books were on their list of items to be rid of.  I spent a total of around $60 for the main book, the player's book, and two supplements and really agonized over whether or not I'd be able to play it.  (It's slated to be the first campaign I run after we stop all this social distancing.)  With Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition I balked a little bit at the $100 price tag, but, based on my failure to get anyone to play 2nd edition, I passed on the game.  

But I'm at the point in my life where the cost of RPGs is pretty much negligible.  If I choose not to buy one it's probably not because of the price.  If I was interested in Invisible Sun and thought I could get my players into it I'd buy it.


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## icedrake (May 4, 2020)

Having read through the books and the PDFs and all the artifacts that are bundled together, its honestly a good price point for the amount of content. You're buying the whole black cube for that price. However, after playing the game? I'm not a huge fan of the many subsystems embedded within the game. MCGs recently put out a book / pdf that compiled all the spells, rituals and subsystems into one book, but that has been a long time coming. This book should have been created and updated from the very start of the game and not an afterthought. 

My playgroup created digital aids and character sheets to track our powers and spells, and even with those aids, its a PAIN to play a character in this system. There's just so much to a single character that you need to track and remember that it just gets in the way of playing the game, and adding poorly written rules on top of that just adds to the pain of playing. I can't wait for my group to move on from this system.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (May 5, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Dang, _somebody _went to an economics class!



Only needed to be said because so many people NEED economics classes.


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## Chris Fougere (May 5, 2020)

I have Invisible Sun.  I've run Invisible Sun.  The game itself is okay.  It's not as cutting edge as they like to think and a lot of the content is just unweildly (like cards for every spell and every item rather than just a book of them).  I'm divided on whether or not it's worth the price.  There is a lot of content but the system just doesn't work as well as they think and the supporters tend towards the rabid and don't want to hear about failings in the system.

Just don't buy into the Directed Campaign.  That's a POS bait and switch, 100%


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## Snarf Zagyg (May 5, 2020)

I prefer expensive things.

It keeps the riffraff out.


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## Chris Fougere (May 5, 2020)

I don't mind paying money for quality.  I do mind paying money for sub-par or mediocre material.


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## Doctor Futurity (May 21, 2020)

Something consistently overlooked here is a fact that you might not realize without owning a copy (physical or otherwise) already: Invisible Sun is actually a four book set. If these were individually packaged at $25 apiece then we would not be having this discussion because the cost would be clear and unambiguous relative to other similar products, many of which actually cost more for their digital editions.

The $100 price point for Invisible Sun is chiefly discouraging, but really for exactly one unique reason: it forces the consumer to evaluate the total cost of the product as a set rather than individual and therefore cheaper single purchases. As a result, for most of us we can't just buy "The Key"* and decide if we like the character generation system in Invisible Sun or not, then proceed to get the next book in line; instead we must consider all four books as a single purchase.

A comparable product is Unknown Armies, which is normally $30 apiece for the three books you need to complete the game.....$90, and I believe roughly the same page count (note: in checking I do see that they're on sale right now, something IS has not done yet, so there is that).

The point here, of course, is that some of the contention about this product is about comparing a four book set to other products which are a fraction of the size and content, leading to the broad, existential deliberation here about the merits of handing over hard currency for ephemera. And for many, who mainly use PDFs as a reference while valuing hard copies as the "real" game, or maybe as bait to lure in players who can't or won't spend money.....PDFs have a very specific and narrow sort of value, which traditionally falls way outside of $100, at least on the surface.


*Edit: apparently we can, for $18.99 for the core player book.


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## Doctor Futurity (May 21, 2020)

Chris Fougere said:


> I don't mind paying money for quality.  I do mind paying money for sub-par or mediocre material.




Agreed. But the issue here is that it can be difficult to parse of where Invisible Sun falls without being able to expose yourself to it. I held off for the longest time for this reason before taking the plunge on the Black Cube. I ended up being very happy with a product that was right up my gaming group's wheelhouse, really one of the best such games I've bought since Unknown Armies....but I had to be willing to burn $250ish dollars and take the plunge blind which was not ideal; I mainly gambled I could move it on Ebay to no loss if I turned out to have made a mistake. Luckily I love the surrealistic take on magic and the occult (it's like a friendlier version of the Kult universe) but I had to trust that since I owned every other MCG product that they wouldn't suddenly steer me wrong here, too, and that paid off (luckily). They do have lots of free preview content on books, I have noticed. 

Also, my earlier post said you can't check out The Key. I am wrong, it's available separately now as a PDF for only $18.99. Maybe they will cave at some point and break out the other three books individually, and the card sets and props in whatever downloadable format as well.


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## Dire Bare (May 22, 2020)

Doctor Futurity said:


> Something consistently overlooked here is a fact that you might not realize without owning a copy (physical or otherwise) already: Invisible Sun is actually a four book set. If these were individually packaged at $25 apiece then we would not be having this discussion because the cost would be clear and unambiguous relative to other similar products, many of which actually cost more for their digital editions.
> 
> The $100 price point for Invisible Sun is chiefly discouraging, but really for exactly one unique reason: it forces the consumer to evaluate the total cost of the product as a set rather than individual and therefore cheaper single purchases. As a result, for most of us we can't just buy "The Key"* and decide if we like the character generation system in Invisible Sun or not, then proceed to get the next book in line; instead we must consider all four books as a single purchase.
> 
> ...




Yup.

If D&D is considered "complete" with the PHB, DMG, and MM . . . that's $150 right there at MSRP without considering dice or any other accessories.


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## Sword of Spirit (May 22, 2020)

Doctor Futurity said:


> Something consistently overlooked here is a fact that you might not realize without owning a copy (physical or otherwise) already: Invisible Sun is actually a four book set. If these were individually packaged at $25 apiece then we would not be having this discussion because the cost would be clear and unambiguous relative to other similar products, many of which actually cost more for their digital editions.




Good point relevant to the particular focus product.

(I still think the general principles that were discussed are worth considering.)


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## Todd Roybark (May 22, 2020)

I find it curious no one has brought up the Platinum Editions from Beadle and Grimm.
$500 per set, for very limited new content, and custom props.
While custom coins and props are cool, cheaper, (frankly much cheaper) alternatives can be found.

Just not this: D&D Idol Ring

I received the DragonHeist Platinum box as a gift.  The set is cool, but not worth double the Black Cube cost of Invisible Sun.  Sorry Beadle and Grimm 

MCG Kickstarters often have very generous rewards.  I felt like I was still getting rewards from the Black Cube, a year after release.


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## aramis erak (May 23, 2020)

Dire Bare said:


> All true. There are other factors that go into pricing digital media also. Pretty sure it's all been covered in this necro-thread pages ago.
> 
> Like any product, a digital book (PDF format or otherwise) can be overpriced. Fans and reviewers can critique price and argue why it is set too high. However, I have not seen any arguments in this thread or elsewhere that have convinced me that the Invisible Sun game, print and/or digital, is overpriced. None. The only things the "too high" arguments here get me to do is roll my eyes so hard I'm making an optometrist appointment.



Most of us who might find evidence cannot afford to find out whether or not it's any good. And, no, at the point you've made this claim, several factors have not... like the point of sale costs, and comparisons to other authorial efforts. Typical authors get pennies per word as an advance, and little more in residuals. The best get dimes per word in advance, and significant residuals. 

Given the claims of many that they buy RPGs for reading, pricing of novel authorship is directly relevant. as it's a direct competitor in that subset of the RPG market. From what I've heard, RPG work actually pays better per word, but is more work per word. 

Now, as for the average player? Well, what I'm seeing at my FLGS is mostly 1 to 1.2x minimum wage workers, and teens living in low income housing. The college students run the full spectrum - local kids whose parents are on public assistance of some form, through upper middle class. 

I'm not seeing the suburban bias. I'm actually seeing an urban bias. Same was true in Anchorage as is true in Corvallis - there's a wide range in players, but most are urban, most are under 30, and most have limited free income. Most also claim to spend too much on RPGs...


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## John Dallman (Jun 29, 2020)

Invisible Sun is now on the Bundle of Holding.


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## Dire Bare (Jun 29, 2020)

John Dallman said:


> Invisible Sun is now on the Bundle of Holding.



Yeah! Just picked it up!

$25 for the _digital_ Black Cube, and $41 for the entire bundle (Black Cube + 5 expansions). Pretty good deal!

I wonder if anyone who paid full price for the _digital_ Black Cube will be irritated . . . I hope not, as, in truth, it's no different from any other product _on sale_, and the proceeds all go to charity.


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## Doctor Futurity (Jun 29, 2020)

Dire Bare said:


> Yeah! Just picked it up!
> 
> $25 for the _digital_ Black Cube, and $41 for the entire bundle (Black Cube + 5 expansions). Pretty good deal!
> 
> I wonder if anyone who paid full price for the _digital_ Black Cube will be irritated . . . I hope not, as, in truth, it's no different from any other product _on sale_, and the proceeds all go to charity.




I just grabbed it! It's a steal, really. But most importantly....telling my players about it. There is now an actual chance I can get them to play now that they can get the PDFs for a reasonable cost.


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