# Kids- How do you do it?



## Harmon (Jul 17, 2005)

Few years ago my wife is told that our chances of getting pregnant are next to Lotto winning chances.

So a couple weeks ago, she gives me a card, and well after nearly ten years of trying, I discover that she is pregnant.  Yahoo!    

Now on Friday she hands me a card telling me that we need to by two of everything.  Oh, crap- twins!   :\ 

February 28th is the due date.

We are really happy about this, but kinda sad too.  So much is gonna change for the better a worse.

Sleep is gonna be a long lost dream, gaming is at an end, freedom to just up and go- is well- gone, the extra bills, the diapers, the expense, but there are so many things that are gonna be there that have never been.  Like having a child- emm, children (plural, Harmon), the laughter, and the love.

What I am curious about is the positives and the negatives of raising a child- umm, children.  Also how do you manage to game with kids- specifically the little ones.


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## TheGM (Jul 17, 2005)

First off, Congratulations!

As to how to manage it - with the help of your group. They've got to either support you or you've got to move on. It's an imposition to bring the child, but lots of people can't afford a sitter for every game, so you have to let 'em know and ask for their support. 

Playing at your house for the first while is best, you can make it up to 'em when the kids a toddler and will just sleep.

And when they're old enough, you'll have "insta-gamers" 
Good luck!


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## Jdvn1 (Jul 17, 2005)

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=104708

One of my favorite threads.


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## Harmon (Jul 17, 2005)

Thanks guys.

We game at our house now.  My wife would like to try to stick to it, but I think its pretty much over for a while starting in about mid February.  The two remaining people in our group are pretty cool and care about us a great deal, but this might be a bit much to ask of them.  Plus my wife and I are trying to handle school too.

She plans on taking about three to six months off, then I will be a stay at home Dad and she will do the work thing.  Not sure how we are going to afford to get her through two years of Nursing (40 hour weeks and no pay check), but so is the life of a parent.

Should be interesting.


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## Jdvn1 (Jul 17, 2005)

Well, PbP games require less time, I think. At least, the time is spread out more.


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## pogre (Jul 17, 2005)

Sounds like you have a solid understanding of some of the challenges that lie ahead. Unlike many new parents who get blindsided by just how life-changing a child is. Twins! Wow - good luck.

We have three children with one on the way this September. My wife has not gamed in over five years, but for a couple of rare occasions. My oldest is five and a half.

It takes a very special kind of person to stay at home with children. I respect people who can do it a great deal. I know I cannot, I am just blessed with a saint for a wife.


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## Dingleberry (Jul 17, 2005)

When my wife was pregnant, we heard tons of advice/anecdotes about being a parent.  I'll pass along the simplest and truest of it: it is _so much harder_ than you think it will be, and it is _so much BETTER_ than you think it will be.


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## IronWolf (Jul 17, 2005)

It's hard to know what to expect when you first have kids.  Despite all of the advice you will get here and the advice you will get from friends and family it is hard to be truly prepared for it.  I know when our son arrived and we brought him home we had a crazy first three hours.  He was pretty small at birth and we hardly had anything that fit him (everyone said they grow fast you won't need newborn size).  What did fit him he promptly peed on in the first hour or so.  Within three hours we were doing our first load of laundry!

The first six weeks are hard in my opinion.  Gettting used to the changes, etc.  After that things start to get easier as you get the routines down.  Soon, you can sort of just up and go as long as it isn't nap time as they get older.  It just means you have grab an extra bag or two as you head out the door (and be back a little earlier in the evening).

It is a lot of fun and we have a great time with our son!  It sounds like you are ready to take things in stride and that will help you the most in the beginning!  Enjoy it!


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## Rel (Jul 17, 2005)

Congratulations, Harmon.  As mentioned before, it is good that you're going into this with your eyes open.  Being a parent has been the most challenging, most rewarding and most life altering experience of my life.  I suspect that is true for most parents.

As to this:



			
				IronWolf said:
			
		

> The first six weeks are hard in my opinion.  Gettting used to the changes, etc.  After that things start to get easier as you get the routines down.




The one bit of advice I give to parents expecting their first child is to prepare in advance with whatever coping mechanism works best for them and be ready to employ it regularly for the first two months.  Whether it is watching bad reality television, eating fatty foods or going outside to scream at the sky, be ready to vent your fatigue enhanced frustration in a way that won't be aimed at your spouse and child.  Will you still get frustrated after two months?  Absolutely, but at around two months those babies are going to start to smile and you won't care so much anymore.

I guess this solves your "career move" issue, huh?   I applaud you for being willing to be a stay at home parent.  I work out of my home and my job is such that I get to spend a lot of time here with my daughter.  One thing that I think I can say is true of every child is that they are always changing.  And changing fast.  I promise you that years from now you will be very glad that you were there to see those changes happen firsthand.

As for the gaming situation, just wait and see.  A lot is going to depend on how soon and how well the kids begin to sleep through the night, whether there's any colick and that sort of thing.  You may have to lay the dice aside for a while but the day will come when you can get back to it.

Anyhow, enjoy the ride and roll with the punches.


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## reveal (Jul 17, 2005)

Lots of good advice here. 

The "6 weeks rules" is golden. By 6 weeks, you and your baby will settle into more a routine. In fact, most babies start sleeping through the night when they're 6 weeks but, of course, all kids are different. 

Gaming went on hold for about a month after Duncan was born. Then it was just putting him in his pack n' play to sleep while we gamed or holding him when he woke up.

As he got older, it got easier to keep track of him. He's 3 now and splits his time between watching his cartoons in the other room, playing with his toys, or sitting at the table and rolling his dice with us. 

Oh and congratulations!


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## Eeralai (Jul 17, 2005)

I highly recommend getting involved in a stay at home dad playgroup or a group specifically for parents with twins.  The lack of adult socializing through me for a loop as a stay at home mom.  Getting involved with a playgroup really helped me and our son.  I think if it had not been for the play group, he would've been the kid screaming for mom his first week of kindergarten 

Otherwise, enjoy!


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## Sledge (Jul 17, 2005)

My biggest advice is to remember that your children are people.  They will be unique and different.  While you may find similarities with the behaviours of other children, your children will have their own definition of what is normal.  Soon you will know what is normal for your child and be able to help them through their lives.

P.S. don't worry about gaming.  Sometimes you have to take a break from it, but if you really enjoy it, you'll find time for it.  Don't be afraid to walk away from the books for weeks or months at a time if needed.

P.P.S. Invest in jumbo dice.  Too big to choke on, but still usable.  It lets them feel like they can play.  I've found that jumbo dice and a blank character sheet will keep kids happier during game time than anything else.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jul 17, 2005)

While I can't give you any real advice as my husband and I have yet to have our first child, I would like to say congratulations!

I've been told that having children will be difficult for me, and it always gives me hope to hear of other couples that had children against the odds.  *smiles*  Yay for you two!


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## Eeralai (Jul 17, 2005)

sorry, my post got posted twice somehow.


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## Aeolius (Jul 17, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Well, PbP games require less time, I think. At least, the time is spread out more.





   As the father of three (ages 11, 7, and almost 2) plus we're in the process of adopting internationally, PbP is the route I took as well. My offline schedule is too unpredictable, for regular gaming sessions.


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## warlord (Jul 17, 2005)

As a twin who was once a baby I have to warn you although you will love these kids at certain times they will make your life what seems like a living hell using a unique brand of twin based trouble making. Oh and Congrats.


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## der_kluge (Jul 17, 2005)

Dude, I am so sorry!  

Also, congratulations.  You're going to totally understand what I mean in a few years.

I've heard from people who have multiples that it's not hard because "we don't know any different".  Us wusses with only one child pity those folks with multiples but to them, it's natural.

You probably won't notice much of a routine change in the first three months. You just keep them in their carseat, and you can take them out to eat. They sleep through anything. Nighttime is a real headache. My wife and I swapped out those duties. So, every other night we got to sleep in the spare bedroom with the door closed, and there we couldn't hear the baby. So, every other night we got a good night's sleep.


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## BlackSilver (Jul 17, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> Few years ago my wife is told that our chances of getting pregnant are next to Lotto winning chances.




Anyone can win if they buy enough tickets.    



			
				Harmon said:
			
		

> Now on Friday she hands me a card telling me that we need to by two of everything.  Oh, crap- twins!   :\




  Do you know the sex/es yet?



			
				Harmon said:
			
		

> Also how do you manage to game with kids- specifically the little ones.




Can't help you with that, other then to say- children sleep, Grandparents love to baby sit, friends understand, and there are two of you.

All our best wishes, Harmon.      You have been blessed and you will make a great father.


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## Templetroll (Jul 18, 2005)

Congrats!  It is possible and beneficial for children and gaming to co-exist and mix.

Go to Paizo and get the plush D20.  If it survives long enough you can teach your kids to count!  They will realize it is important to learn since Daddy always plays with _his _ d20!  keep in mind the size of the d20 has to be bigger than the kid's mouth at all times!  (my daughter's choking incident was 2 quarters and a nickle she found on the floor of a gaming room that had been 'baby-proofed' by three adults.  Kids always trump adults in things like that; see these grey hairs?  I _earned _ those suckers!)

When my daughter was ready to be taken out one of the first things we did was get back to our regular gaming group!  Luckily, it was half female, almost all married and some had kids of their own.  We had no problem with someone to watch the baby while we took our turns and roleplayed.  Once, I ran a game at our house and one of the players suggested that my now sleeping daughter be put in her room, since it was convenient for once.  I did so...  By the time I got back to the living room we heard on the intercom that she was awake and wanting up.  I brought her back down and started the game again.  Snooze-city for the kid.   Noise, especially that associated with gaming, was a comfort to her!  dang, _that _ was sweet!

Once I was playing Magic:TG with my wife and we heard our daughter tell her grandmother, "I turn Thomas (the Tank-Engine) and you take 3 points of damage!"    

She started playing D&D with us when she was 10; she is 15 now and it is very cool.   Her first character was a teenage witch named Sabrina.... She died at the Moathouse in the ToEE module.   She has since played an cat that could turn into a panther (worked through 5 out of 9 lives before a TPK)  a flying cat sorcerer, an owl druid, a faerie dragon, a silver dragon, a sabre-tooth tiger druid .... you get the picture, I'm sure.   

In a Greyhawk campaign I'm running for my wife and child she is playing a tiefling from Kanak in the Dry Steppes and a creature based on an illustration - kinda catlike with fire on the tip of its tail.  She wants the tiefling to be related to characters like Vash the Stampede and Shoshomaru.     

We've found that her math skills improved when she started playing D&D as well as her vocabulary.  Imagination is always a great thing for a kid to use; keeps them away from the Tv for a while - up to you whether it kept you from a bad crowd...


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## Digital M@ (Jul 18, 2005)

Congrats!

I have a 13 week old and I game once a week, but my wife does not.  I have two dogs and they are 4 times as hard to take care of as one dog, and I have to imagine the same goes for kids.  You have your work cut out for you, but the reward is worth it all.

I imagine that face to face gaming will go away for awhile, but look what you are trading it for.  I hardly call it a loss.  I have yet to meet someone with a newborn that enjoys long visits.  60-90 minutes seem to be great, you get to say hello, people can see the baby/ies and then they go.  Your energy is limited and entertaining or playing a four hour game while trying to balance 2 newborns will not work.

Congrats again.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 18, 2005)

Congratulations!

There is a lot of good advice here, but as with any advice, feel free to ignore whatever doesn't feel right for you.  These are your children, your family, don't let others tell you how to raise them. 

A few things I will emphasize: talk with your wife about how you are going to raise the kids.  Crib or family bed?  Furber technique or attachment parenting? Spanking or no spanking (won't be needed until later, but talk about it before you do)?  Be consistent, you should raise your children together, not each your own way.

As for the changes and coping: it can be hard, especially if you don't have friends and family how are in or have been in the same boat.  There will be days it will really annoy you that you can't just up and head off to a gaming convention, or even get an evening out with your wife.  In the end, though, the rewards are worth the troubles, especially if you've got a couple of snugglers like my two are.  There is nothing like laying on the couch and having both kids climb up and lay down with you so you can read them a book, or having them just give you a big hug because they love you.  
Good luck and have fun!


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## DarrenGMiller (Jul 18, 2005)

Congrats, Harmon!  My wife and I have been married for 13 years and have no chilren yet.  We have been trying for the past 6+ years (no birth control), but have had no luck yet.  Enjoy every minute of it!

DM


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## billd91 (Jul 18, 2005)

Wow, long drought and then jackpot. Congratulations.

When my first was on the way, a co-worker told me that once you have your kid, you can no longer really imagine life without them again. I didn't really understand it then, but I do  now. Kids change pretty much everything, sometimes in major ways, sometimes subtlely.

Don't worry if you don't feel you are bonding with your kids right away. It doesn't happen that way for everybody. My first reaction when my daughter was born was "Oh, crap. We've done it now!" It felt like everything was crashing in on me. The realization that I was now responsible for this child's life was suddenly made manifest and it scared the hell out of me. I thought there was something wrong with me. Then I watched the hospital's post partum shows on one of their cable channels and there was a group discussion of new fathers discussing whether they bonded right away or not. About half did and half didn't. I started to feel that I wasn't so messed up. And you know what? We have since made that connection and I realized I love my daughter more than I could ever really describe and could ever have predicted. 
When my son was born nearly a year ago, I bonded much quicker. I now knew more about what to expect and was more experienced with making that bond, so it was easier. Of course, having a second kid always complicates things. But we're muddling through.

Let the major gaming slide for a while until you start to feel you've got the time for it. Invest in some quick and easy short games like Munchkin, Chez Geek, Carcasonne, and others that can solve your gaming needs without sucking away too much time.


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## Steve Jung (Jul 18, 2005)

Congratulations to you and your wife, Harmon.


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## Harmon (Jul 19, 2005)

*Thank you, times a hundred*

 

I was pretty nervous by Friday night (knew there was one coming before that, on Friday it was two- nervous).

We have started cleaning out one of our spare rooms for later occupation, by the little ones.  Right now we plan on using the walk in closet for a nursery- will allow for easy access and quick turn arounds for changing and feedings in the late of night.

As I think I mentioned- the wife is going to spend a few months home at first then I will quit working all together to focus on raising the kids for the first few years.  Hopefully we can do it with our finances  :\  which are pretty bad, cause of my injury a few years ago.

We have started reading books about pregency, infancy, and toddlers, making rules and scheduals and stuff like that.  We have a lot of work to do.

I want to attend some classes on the basics (Baby 101 would be a nice class to have if they taught something like that at the local JC or adult school)as well as some anger management courses (which I reeaaalllllyyyyy need).  

We don't expect much help from the grandparents & friends- my Dad and step Mom are famous for their lack of interest in little ones (they are great with them they just don't want to help out).  Mom and her BF are pretty interested though they live 20 odd miles away and have to work.  Mom and step Dad in law have a little more interest then my Dad and his wife, so no help there.  Father in law- never met the man, never want to meet him, so that door is pretty much closed.  Friends- have two that might help, but not sure how interested they are so I guess I will need to ask that question.

As far as the gaming goes, my wife is deeply considering quitting so that I can continue to game as an outlet as I will be locked in a house with two kids for years I need something to help me through it (her words not mine).

Many thanks guys, as ever EN is great.  I thank you many times for the help, for the blessings and such, it helps with my self doubt.


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## reveal (Jul 19, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> We have started reading books about pregency, infancy, and toddlers, making rules and scheduals and stuff like that.  We have a lot of work to do.




We found these books very helpful:

_What to Expect When You're Expecting

What to Expect the First Year

Dr. Spock's Baby and Child Care_


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## Nareau (Jul 19, 2005)

Having once been a kid myself, I feel qualified to recommend How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk.  My mom read it when I was a teenager, and it helped to make her the Best Mom Ever.

Spider


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## Treebore (Jul 19, 2005)

Well, as you know, I'ver been there and done that and you've even met two of my three kids. Early on rely on the advice you get and read in the books, but do learn to trust your instincts.

Definitely get a handle on your anger issues, whatever they are, I've never seen you lose your temper in person. But the worst feeling in the world is if you let your anger hurt those little babies, so work really hard to avoid such an ugly situation, those aren't memories you want to carry for the rest of your life.

What helps me, is primarily just keeping it in, and venting it elswhere. 
Plus, when you know your getting to the "point" learn to walk away before you go off. Tell "N" to let you go when this happens, so she knows why your doing it.

Plus, with your (my) kids, when your looking at them, I keep it in the front of my mind how much I love them, how it is my job to protect and teach them, so I find that I really don't lose my temper nearly as often as I would with other people or children.

But rule number one for anger control issues, never punish your child while you are angry. Force yourself to wait until you are "really" over it and won't get worked up again.
Kids make mistakes, lots of them, with many of them being repeats. Just realize they are kids, and yes it can take several times before they start to remember the right way to behave, no matter how BIG the punishment was the last 2, 3, 5, 12 times. Sooner or later they will get it, hopefully soon the vast majority of the time.


It will be a big help if both you and N are on the same page on all issues of discipline, if not, get as close as you can, and definitely defer to her while your temper is flared up.

Plus, when they are older, such as late in their 3rd year, or maybe never, watch for them to start intentionally playing you and N against each other. My son that you met did this, to the point where it took a lot to get my wife to "see" it. It took a while for me to catch on in the first place. I think he was 4 or 5 when he did it, but he could have been as old as 7. You did notice my senile tendencies when we gamed together, right?

My other two never tried to play us against each other.

Well, I'm on the east coast right now, so it is very late (2:00 AM) and since I need to get up in about 6 hours I had better go to bed. If I think of any other words of wisdom that may actually be useful I'll most likely e-mail them to you.

Congrats on the twins, there are advantages to doing it two at a time. But there are disadvantages that may make you wonder if it balances out. The biggest disadvantage is probably that you and N won't outnumber them. You'll figure out what I mean as you get the experience.

Your kids birthdays should be within a weeks of my youngest. Well, good night.


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## James Heard (Jul 19, 2005)

the lucky dad-to-be said:
			
		

> So a couple weeks ago, she gives me a card, and well after nearly ten years of trying



Dude, I am _so_ not taking any more cards or paper products in any form from anymore women I know...just in case. 

Congrats, welcome to your new fitness workout for the next several years. Those darn babies are _heavy_.


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## Thunderfoot (Jul 19, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> When my wife was pregnant, we heard tons of advice/anecdotes about being a parent. I'll pass along the simplest and truest of it: it is _so much harder_ than you think it will be, and it is _so much BETTER_ than you think it will be.




I'll second that in a HEARTBEAT!
My olderst is 16 and youngest is 11 (soon to be 12), as far as advice, I agree with the gaming at your house, play with others who will support you (other parents or parents with older kids who don't game are a big help), allow time for diaper changes, feedings, "crying" time, etc.

As for parenting advice - love them always, discipline (kids need it and wil respect you for it later) as needed (but never in anger), and share in their hobbies and they may share in yours.

My son plays in my gaming group - my daughter abandoned it.  I'm not angry or saddened (my sister didn't like gaming either) and she is now one of the older children who helps with t he younger children while we game (BONUS!!).  My group is rather strange but hopefully it's make-up will help you make some decisions and educate the other members of your group about what is going to happen.  

My wife and I have been married for 17+ years (18 in October), but we are both under 40 (I was 18 she was 20 when we tied the knot).  Q (my son) came along right after so we have a lot of experience under our belts.  Another couple has three children (oldest is 11, middle is 6, youngest is 2) and have been married for 12 years.  We have two couples that just crossed their 1st and 2nd anniversaries), a couple that just got engaged (single guy and divorced mother of 2/ie instant family/), and three single guys (yes we have a VERY LARGE group).  How does it work - a lot of understanding and a whole lot of work.  Part of that is learning to give and TAKE advice when its offered, and understand that everyone is trying to help, not run your life.  

I have learned to live by the phrase, It isn't always easy, but it's always worth it.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 19, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> We found these books very helpful:
> 
> _What to Expect When You're Expecting
> 
> ...




We didn't like the "What to Expect..." books.  If you find you don't try The Birth Book and The Baby Book by William Sears for a different viewpoint.


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## schporto (Jul 19, 2005)

Congrats.
I have a 7 month old.  We still manage to game on a regular basis.  For the first bit she would sleep in our arms while we played, or would watch us playing.  Now we get her to bed in the begining of the game.  And at the very begining we took about 4 weeks off.  The only awkward bit revolved around breastfeading.  Everybody works that one out for themselves it seems.
I will only offer one really dumb piece of advice.
1.  You will be sleeping less.  This leads to...
2.  You will be hungrier then you have been.  
3.  At weird hours because you are now keeping odd hours.
So the advice - Keep a semi helthy snack that you can eat one handed.  Granola bars were our cheat.
Enjoy.
-cpd


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## Dingleberry (Jul 19, 2005)

schporto said:
			
		

> So the advice - Keep a semi helthy snack that you can eat one handed.  Granola bars were our cheat.



Seconded.  We kept a huge box of granola bars and cases of bottled water next to the rocker in the nursery.  And Starbucks frappucino bottles in the fridge when 2:00 a.m. emergency caffeine was required and a soda just didn't sound good.


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## Dingleberry (Jul 19, 2005)

James Heard said:
			
		

> Congrats, welcome to your new fitness workout for the next several years. Those darn babies are _heavy_.




Also seconded.  For purposes of (i) forcing myself to ge as many diapers as possible, and (ii) getting my arms in shape to hold the growing kid, I adopted the following rules after my son was born: for every diaper I changed, I had to do ten push-ups; for every diaper I was _available _ to change but someone else changed, I had to do _twenty _ push-ups.

My arms have never been in better shape, even when I was marching drums in college.  I can't imagine what a brute I'd be if we had twins.


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## Wyn A'rienh (Jul 19, 2005)

Congratulations from a mother of twins!

There is so much great advice in this thread.  I'm impressed.

My experience with twins is a bit different than yours will be, as I had a 2 1/2 year old when my twins were born.  I was used to dealing with one baby, then I had to learn how to deal with two.

I'm not gonna lie, having twins is tough.  My best advice would be to help eachother out as much as possible.  My ex-husband was next to no help when mine were born, and I was a miserable zombie for weeks.  You're both going to be completely exhausted for awhile.  Sleep when they sleep.  When one gets up in the middle of the night to eat, get the other one up as well.  If they're on the same schedule, it's so much easier.  Oh, and if your wife is thinking about breastfeeding, please let her know that it is absolutely possible to do with twins - I breastfed mine for a year with no problems at all.  Though, if she does breastfeed them, make sure that you get up in the middle of the night as well.  There's nothing like trying to latch two babies on when you're all by yourself and bleary-eyed to boot.

Toddler years with my two have been ... well, hell (they're nearly four now).  They're like little partners-in-crime.  It's good that you're already thinking about anger management classes ... I've always been laid-back and easy going, not angry at all, but with these two, I often have to go outside, scream, and count to ten.

Also, be prepared for a rough pregnancy.  It may go perfectly, and I hope that it does, but with twins, you just never know.  I went into premature labor at 28 weeks and was put on strict bedrest (only getting up to go to the bathroom) for the remainder of my pregnancy (they were born at 36 weeks).  Three weeks of that bedrest were spent in the hospital.  It got to where the intake people in the ER knew me by name.

It's also good to prepare yourself for the idea that one or both of them may have to spend some time in the neonatal intensive care unit.  When I was pregnant, we took a tour of the unit, and familiarized ourselves with all of the equipment so that it wasn't so scary.  It turned out that one of mine - the littler one - did have to spend two weeks there for a collapsed lung.

Oh, my favorite twin book during my pregnancy was Having Twins by Elizabeth Noble.  Clickie It is (as I just found out) out of print, and many people appear not to like it, but it was the best one for me (and I read everything I could get my hands on).

Good luck to you both!  You're definitely in for a ride ...


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## Wyn A'rienh (Jul 19, 2005)

Almost forgot - 

Since you're on a limited budget - something I know TONS about - you may want to consider cloth diapers.  Now, don't immediately think "ewwww".  Cloth diapers have come a long way in the past couple of years.  I cloth diapered my twins and loved it.  Here is a great FAQ link about cloth diapering.  And if you or your wife sew at all, you could even make your own!


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 19, 2005)

Hey congratulations!



			
				Harmon said:
			
		

> What I am curious about is the positives and the negatives of raising a child- umm, children.  Also how do you manage to game with kids- specifically the little ones.




OK, well you're going to be giving up a lot of material things and gaining a lot of immaterial things.  You seem to have a grasp on that, so I won't belabor the point.

As for dealing with it, I suggest the following: each of you gets at least two 45-guilt-free minutes all to themselves a week.  Exercise, read, goof off, do whatever.  But lock down those times and make it clear that unless something's on fire or bleeding, the person getting the break is not to be disturbed.  You won't be able to do this the first 3 or 4 months, but it's something to do long term.

Do you have family in the area?  When the kids can roll over by themselves use them for babystitting.  Try to have at least one "date night" a month.  Don't game.  Don't invite other people.  Take her out to a movie or something.  Do it during the day until you are comfortable with leaving the kids with other people at night.  I completely blew this and as a result I didn't take my wife out for about a year.  Time passes by like lightning with kids.  You blink and all of the sudden they're walking.  

Gaming is going to drop to a lower priority unless your buddies also have kids.  There is a definate, tangible rift between the child-free and the breeders.  I _still_ have difficulty telling my buddies that I'm going to be late to a game because I haven't put my daughter to bed in a few days and I miss it.  All this being said, make sure she gets her "girl's nights" and you make sure you get your "guys nights".  Again, good luck doing this the first few months, but you'll need to do it.

Kids don't need much, but what they do need is incredibly important.  They need a stable routine.  They need love.  And they need to see you and your wife in a healthy relationship.  They will be patterning their behavior based on how you two treat each other.  I firmly believe that the relationship betwen the parents is the most important one in the house.  So listen to your wife and make sure your communication is good.

Best of luck, man.


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## JoeBlank (Jul 19, 2005)

Damn, BG. ENnie-nominated author and child/relationship expert. 

I'm a dad of 3, and husband to 1. Your advice on time to yourselves, date nights, child-free v. breeders rift, girls'/guys' nights out, and kids' needs of stable routine, love and seeing parents in a healthy relationship mirrors our philosphy almost perfectly. Of course, we came to understand these things by trial and error, but it is working well for us now.

Congrats, Harmon! Some great advice in this thread. To echo what others have said: keep your marriage strong, work as a team to care for your kids, and you will find the time to do the things you enjoyed pre-parenthood.

It helps to have an understanding gaming group too. My groups are the best. I guess I am just lucky.


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## Desdichado (Jul 19, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> Sleep is gonna be a long lost dream, gaming is at an end, freedom to just up and go- is well- gone, the extra bills, the diapers, the expense,



Many of those things are self-fulfilling prophecies, not actual truisms about having children.  If your attitude is that "gaming is at an end" than it will be.  I have four small(ish) kids, and I game more now than at any point in my life since college at least, if not earlier.  My wife doesn't game with us, but she goes out with her girlfriends as often as I game (if not more) seeing chick flicks, shopping, late night blitzes to Applebees (and their half-priced appetizers on Tuesday evenings) and all kinds of other things.  We watch plenty of TV, see plenty of movies, and don't hire babysitters more than once or twice a year.  We either switch off if it's something that only one of us is doing, and swap kid-watching with lots of good friends of ours who have kids the same age as ours.  And sleep's only bad for a few weeks if you put any effort at all into establishing a schedule; although granted, twins may be more difficult than a single baby.  I don't have any personal experience with that (although a co-worker that sits on the other side of the wall from me tells me her triplets got into a schedule relatively quickly because they made it a priority to do so.)  And we still up and go places an awful lot.  Granted, not necessarily the same places we used to before having kids, but still--there's this attitude that you have to make massive quality of life changes just because you have kids, and many of those changes aren't really ones that need to be made.

Now that doesn't mean that there won't be massive changes, but don't confuse the ones that you have to make with the ones you don't.  As an example, one thing my wife and I decided is that one of the best legacies we could leave with our children is a memory of parents who had a good, active relationship on which to model their own marriages down the line.  Also, since the kids are going to grow up and leave the house eventually, leaving us stuck with just each other again, we have made it a top priority to focus on our own relationship and make sure it's thriving.  Adopting this attitude means that we still go out quite a bit, we still indulge each other in our hobbies, and all kinds of other things.  I did have to prune back some of my hobbies--I've always had more hobbies than time, and of course, that only got worse as grad school, work, kids, etc. starting taking more time than ever, but in my opinion, it's a mistake to completely subsume your own identity into that of your kids.  And in the long run, I don't think it's doing the kids any favors to do that; showing them healthy, well-adjusted adults that still have fun doing things together (without the kids on occasion) and have individuality and hobbies of their own as role models means its that much more likely that they'll grow up to be the same.

What were we talking about again?  Sorry; I think I've meandered a bit.  Stayed up too late reading the new Harry Potter book...


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jul 19, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> I still have difficulty telling my buddies that I'm going to be late to a game because I haven't put my daughter to bed in a few days and I miss it.




Officially the most precious thing I've ever read here at EN World.  (I'm a daddy's girl.  *sniffle*  I have a soft spot for daddy/daughter moments ).


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## Desdichado (Jul 19, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> (I'm a daddy's girl.  *sniffle*  I have a soft spot for daddy/daughter moments ).



So do I.  But I'm on the other end of that relationship.    I like my three sons very much, and I "get" them very well.  But my relationship with my daughter is something very different.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 19, 2005)

> Kids- How do you do it?




Well, when a man and a woman really love each other, the man gives the woman a backrub and a boquet of flowers, and the woman gives a man a steak, and....

You know what, nevermind. I'll tell you when you're older...

/me hopes the mean streets will teach him before I have to....


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## Harmon (Jul 20, 2005)

Oh, man I think I need to change this book list from Amazon to Used Book Store.    

Thank you very much for the advice and the book titles.

My wife told me yesterday that one of the twins is looking smaller then the other one by two weeks.      We fear that this one might be having trouble, but there is the chance that its fading twin syndrome.      Ahh, not sure how I should feel.... 

My wife was pretty bummed by the news but smiled when she said that the other was healthy and well.  

Its kinda hard to move through all these emotions when we had given up on the idea of having kids.

Again, thank you with the books, and suggestions.  

What I would like to hear are suggestions for table issues with the little ones?  Do you put a play pen behind your chair?  Feed the little one while your character battles?  Is it healthy for the young- developing mind to hear and go through the experience of gaming while they are so young?  



*Treebore*- the anger management classes was simply this, I don't want to get angry around my kids.  I want to learn to control any flare ups that I have.  When something frustrating and upsetting comes up I want to know how to handle it emotionally incase its just to much.

Everyone has a temper.  A couple months ago I had a bad flare, I had been dealing with issues, trying to get something cleared up and I blew it.  Things like that need to be avoided when the little ones come along.


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## Desdichado (Jul 20, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> What I would like to hear are suggestions for table issues with the little ones?  Do you put a play pen behind your chair?  Feed the little one while your character battles?  Is it healthy for the young- developing mind to hear and go through the experience of gaming while they are so young?



Well, for many monthes it won't really matter much.  Infants aren't likely to get into things by virtue of the fact that they can't move around very well.  Even toddlers to a certain point are safe.  Once they can climb up on stuff, it may be more of an issue, but it wouldn't be for me--we've never had kids that we allowed to get into stuff that we didn't allow them to.  A lot of folks seem to be amazed that we've never "baby-proofed" the house with four kids, but I say teaching the kids not to get into stuff rather than simply not making it an option is preferable.  I'd feed the little guy (or girl) when he needs it, although it'd be nice to try to schedule gaming between feeding sessions as much as possible.  Not likely while really young and breast-feeding, as they need to eat every two to three hours, but then again, I've never been bothered by breast-feeding going on in the same room as something else I was doing.  It might be an issue for some, though.

As for mental development; what are you worried about exactly?  That your infant will develop violent tendencies from listening to your gaming?  That doesn't seem likely to me; it'll be at least a year or two before he has any idea what you're talking about in the least.  Only you know what kind of content your games have; I don't know that I'd like my older kids to necessarily hear our game sessions; our games tend to verge on horror at times, and we've got things like gruesome bodies turning up in alleys, daemonic summonings, undead, horrifyingly gross monsters, etc. but at the same time, I run a much more tame Star Wars based game for them from time to time and they love it.  I tend to think it's good for babies to get used to being around "busy" locations and adapt to it.  If you've got people over playing, hanging out, and whatnot, it's usually not bad to get kids used to that environment.  The last thing you want is a baby that's a really light sleeper.


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## Dingleberry (Jul 20, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> There is a lot of good advice here, but as with any advice, feel free to ignore whatever doesn't feel right for you.  These are your children, your family, don't let others tell you how to raise them.



Definitely a lot of great advice on here, but this is worth repeating.  Similarly - and this isn't directed at anyone in particular who has responded here - even if you do choose to follow certain advice, it doesn't mean you'll have the same results.  All babies are different, and things may work great for some that don't work at all for others.  And just because something isn't working, it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong or you're a failure as a parent.  YOU WILL NOT GET IT RIGHT ALL THE TIME - in part because it's a rapidly moving target.  Thy grow and change _really _ fast.

Listen to people you trust, _definitely_ listen to your pediatrician, and do what feel right for you and your babies.  Congratulations again - it's an adventure like you've never imagined.


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## Thunderfoot (Jul 20, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> <SNIP> My wife told me yesterday that one of the twins is looking smaller then the other one by two weeks.  We fear that this one might be having trouble, but there is the chance that its fading twin syndrome.  Ahh, not sure how I should feel....
> 
> My wife was pretty bummed by the news but smiled when she said that the other was healthy and well.
> <SNIP>QUOTE]
> ...


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## Funeris (Jul 20, 2005)

Well...as far as the kid(s) being present for the gaming, mine is and was.  He's 5.5 months old now...and I wouldn't dream of shipping him off somewhere during the games (although we did that once or twice).  I'm not sure I could stand that 

But, both myself and my girlfriend feed him if he's hungry during play.  Sometimes we have to take breaks....sometimes not.  It depends on what specifically is occuring at that moment in the game.  The friends I game with are pretty supportive there....all except for two of them have kids and know what its like.  And actually the two that don't have kids want to hold him most of the time.  Thankfully, the little bugger is quite capable at entertaining himself...whether its scooting across the floor and trying to figure out the patio door, chasing the cats (until his mind wanders), or just playing with his toys.

IMHO, gaming is a good social event for infants/toddlers because there are people to interact with.  It can't hurt there mental development, after all.  Now, when he's a little older, he might have to go to a babysitter or his grandparents' just because some of the...topics in our games are adult-only.  And I don't want him learning about them...at say the age of 4 or 5.

If you get angry, just repeat the mantra:  "In four or five years, you too can game" (Taking deep breaths all the time).

But, if you're Rel's daughter, or Ledded's son, change that to "In three years...."   I know I'm going to start mine early.


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## jgbrowning (Jul 20, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> Definitely a lot of great advice on here, but this is worth repeating.  Similarly - and this isn't directed at anyone in particular who has responded here - even if you do choose to follow certain advice, it doesn't mean you'll have the same results.  All babies are different, and things may work great for some that don't work at all for others.  And just because something isn't working, it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong or you're a failure as a parent.  YOU WILL NOT GET IT RIGHT ALL THE TIME - in part because it's a rapidly moving target.  Thy grow and change _really _ fast.
> 
> Listen to people you trust, _definitely_ listen to your pediatrician, and do what feel right for you and your babies.  Congratulations again - it's an adventure like you've never imagined.




What's the quote? "The measure of how good your parents were is by how quickly you forgive them."  

joe b.


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## BlackSilver (Jul 24, 2005)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> What's the quote? "The measure of how good your parents were is by how quickly you forgive them."




Where did you get that quote?  I love it.


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## Harmon (Jul 24, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> As for mental development; what are you worried about exactly?  That your infant will develop violent tendencies from listening to your gaming?  That doesn't seem likely to me; it'll be at least a year or two before he has any idea what you're talking about in the least.  Only you know what kind of content your games have; I don't know that I'd like my older kids to necessarily hear our game sessions; our games tend to verge on horror at times, and we've got things like gruesome bodies turning up in alleys, daemonic summonings, undead, horrifyingly gross monsters, etc. but at the same time....




I can recall some of the conversations my parents had about drugs, booze, and other such things that even to me now (when I think about it) makes me rise an eye brow.  What I am thinking about is the things I say that will counter what I am trying to teach- "run him through for stealing my gold-" while previoulsy in the day it was the conversation about hitting "we don't hit people for any reason."

It seems pretty hipicritical- I know, explain it when s/he is old enough to understand, but the sub conscious can do things with conversations if they are not dealt with in the proper time.

Am I just over thinking this?

Many thanks.


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## Kastil (Jul 28, 2005)

We took our son with us when we gamed.  It helped that the two people who DMed were also his God Parents.  They had a 'baby jail'  (AKA play pen) and my son would be quite happy playing in there or sleeping.  Once he became a toddler, I let him sit on my lap and roll the dice for me.  It taught him dice are meant to be rolled, not eaten.  There was't much that sent my son on a 'rage' in those days and I find most people don't mind the distraction every now and again of the wonderful joy most children bring.

Children are a joy like no other!


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## Harmon (Jul 29, 2005)

Kastil said:
			
		

> Children are a joy like no other!




That is what I am so looking forward to experiencing.


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## Micah (Jul 29, 2005)

Well since it's twins - I'd suggest a pack n' play and  a swing behind your gaming chair.

As far as gaming effecting the children - you've got time on that one. While hearing is one of the first senses developed (even before birth) comprehension of the language isn't going to hit for a year or more. Some of the things that actually will effect the children more at the beginning are the tones. If there's a lot of yelling, whooping, hollering etc at the table - the babies may startle, wake, or become upset because of loud or angry tones.

My advice on that one. When they come home from the hospital, Run the vacuum while they nap, Play the radio, talk, laugh etc. while they sleep.  Don't be afraid to make noises and it will increase the chance that they will be able to sleep through noisier conditions more readily.

Make it a priority to find a babysitter. Do any of the players in your group have teens or pre-teen daughters that would be interested in tagging along to help watch the babies? You've mentioned that families aren't really an option - what about co-workers, neighbors, other social contacts that you have. It may take several tries to find a sitter with the experience and personality that you desire, but it's worth it in the long run. When ours were little - we actually had a sitter come to our house to watch the girls while we played a game. It gave us the opportunity to game and to observe how she interracted with the kids.

You won't regret having a good babsitter to call on by the time they reach two and you are at the end of every bit of patience and ounce of parental love that you have by about 10am.

If you enjoy gaming - don't give it up! You will need things like that to keep your sanity. Children eat up a good portiuon of your energy and time. If you don't take breaks though - you will break.

Make sure you both start getting in naps.  There are so many challenges that you will face after birth - but you will inevitably face them all tired. Things become unbearable when you face them exhausted. Spell each other, take shifts, and hang on - the kindergarten bus will be pulling next to the curb before you know it.


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## Desdichado (Jul 29, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> I can recall some of the conversations my parents had about drugs, booze, and other such things that even to me now (when I think about it) makes me rise an eye brow.  What I am thinking about is the things I say that will counter what I am trying to teach- "run him through for stealing my gold-" while previoulsy in the day it was the conversation about hitting "we don't hit people for any reason."
> 
> It seems pretty hipicritical- I know, explain it when s/he is old enough to understand, but the sub conscious can do things with conversations if they are not dealt with in the proper time.
> 
> ...



No, not at all.  It's a valid concern, and I could easily see a case being built for either direction on it.  I grew up with a bunch of brothers, and we used to watch all kinds of old swashbuckler and western movies, so we naturally played all kinds of games as very young kids where we "killed" each other and whatnot.  I saw Star Wars when I was five; my sister went with us and was only three, and my next youngest brother was an infant.  We also saw Raiders three years later when it came out; I was 8, my sister 6 and I had brothers who were 3 and 1--watching peoples faces melt off; watching Indie wearily shoot the swordsman guy, etc.

I suppose others could argue, but I don't think it had any adverse effect on us; it was always clear that there was a difference between movies and games and real life.

But, I wouldn't simply blow off your concern even though my solution would be not to worry about it.  It's a valid question, and only you can decide how you would handle it.  My wife--for a long time--took a much more protective stance.  She didn't like even my older kids to watch "dark" cartoons like Batman Beyond, and was happily keeping him on a diet of Winnie the Pooh and whatnot even when he was starting school.  She's somewhat changed her tune lately; she even recommended that I watch Raiders with the two oldest as a father/kids moment, for example, and she gleefully commiserated with them as they grossed out (in a fun way) about the Nazis faces melting off.

I guess how protective and sheltering to be about stuff like that is ultimately up to you; you have to decide when your kids are ready to learn certain things.  As long as you don't go too far and try to keep them from _ever_ being exposed to the world, and thus being woefully unprepared for it, I don't think there's a wrong answer there.  My own preference is to be somewhat less protective; let them learn things, _help_ them learn things, even, while they're still young.

Something I learned a long time ago; children need to learn how the world works, and about consequences, and the difference between reality and fiction, etc. sometime, and in many ways, the earlier they learn these things, while the consequences blowing them are small, the better off they are. This is a bit far afield from your original question, but as an example of my attitude, my daughter called home (in kindergarten) in the winter; she had left her shoes at home ('coz she wore snow boots to school.)  My response?  "I'm very sorry.  Tomorrow you better make sure and put them in your backpack."  Many parents would rush shoes to her, but what does she learn from that?  That you've always got her back?  While that sounds admirable, I'd rather her learn to be responsible.  The consequences of a day in kindergarten in snow boots are pretty minor compared to later in life when her job, her marriage, her college education, etc. are the consequences of not having learned responsibility.

So, the short answer is; I wouldn't worry about it; I've found that kids are brighter and yes, more responsible and mature in many ways, than most adults give them credit for, if you give them a chance to be.  But ultimately you'll have to decide where to draw the line in terms of sheltering until an appropriate time vs. letting them see "adult life."

Anyway, a more formalized description of my attitude can be found here: http://www.loveandlogic.com/  My wife took me to one of their seminars just based on someone's recomendation, and although at first I was skeptical, I quickly found out that they had formalized and codified the way I already though intuitively, and by having it formalized and codified, it was easier to not slip and do things "wrong."  I've been very impressed with the methodology.  Like I said, I was already doing it, mostly, on my own, but the methodology as a formalized style was pretty impressive.


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## Harmon (Jul 30, 2005)

When we played GURPs (which we played for about ten years) it was pretty much R and NC17 in rating.  Sense getting into D&D its toned down to PG13 with a few R ratings.  

When I GMed for my niece and nephew a few years back (both over ten at the time) I kept the campaign to a simple traveling campaign with little back ground and a couple of three or four fights over the course of the six hours of gaming.  They loved it.    

What I really want to know about is how do you guys- emm, guess I am not wording this right.  Presently I sit at the table, drink water or soda, game, rise to use the restroom when I need (usually after my turn), our GM orders food, or I BBQ or someone goes to get the food.  

With a child I imagine it will be much the same, however there will be a stop-age every two hours for feeding, some burping, and a changing shortly there after (best done in the other room).  How is it that you can focus on the game while maintaining a more important focus on the needs of your child?


Thank you all for all your help, books, and thoughts and suggestions thus far.  I have a lot of the books suggested, and need to get them all read before this next February.  

Thank you, once again.


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## Micah (Jul 31, 2005)

How do you split your attention?

Well for some people it is easier than for others. In a loose generalization it tends to be easier for girls to multi-task than for guys. I play with my husband and when we have our three toddlers/preschoolers with, it does distract us. Usually, child interruptions go to the parent who is not on an active turn, or closest (to the kids) if we are all involved in combat. We know each others character sheets rather well and are not afraid to play the absent players hand for a couple of rounds. If something looks like it will take a critical character decision, the group is very good about waiting. In fact we have a very understanding group of friends who play.

It's not too bad with infants. You can roll the dice and hold a bottle usually simultaneously. You can bounce them on your knee or cuddle them and respond to DM questions with a little more work.

Once they get to about six months it gets harder to hold them at the table. It becomes a game to keep the dice from being grabbed and swallowed, the battlemap from being yanked, etc. We started gaming at around 8pm and played until midnight once the kids got to this stage. Not ideal in some ways, but it usually gave us time to put the kids down before we started. You will soon understand the incredible feeling of freedom that comes once the kids are asleep in bed for the night. It's a feeling only parents relate to.

When we gamed at the DM's house nothing beat the pack n' play which doubled as a portable crib/ containment device.

The one year old to three year old stage has been the hardest. They are mobile (can get into anything - including the safe zone on top of the refrigerator), no longer content to sleep at someone elses house, particularly if there are other children involved, and too young yet to get into long movies and Nintendo, and they want to eat all the snacks at the game table.

Light at the end of the tunnel seems to be showing in the four to five range.


The hard thing is that babies and small children want attention - your attention and they've a pretty good idea when they are getting it. To a certain point you will need to wait and see how you're little ones react. Some kids are content to swing or sit in an exersaucer close to the table. Others are not happy unless you are walking around bobbing them up and down, still others, in the case of collic, are unhappy no matter what. Your own ability to focus on the game is going to be highly dependent on what your children are like. Because no one can concentrate on character sheets with a child who's in a full blown wailing session. And with two - you'll find that when one cries it's pretty likely that both will take up the pasttime. We call it "sympathetic detonation" around here.


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## Dougal DeKree (Aug 1, 2005)

Congratulations Harmon!

About stopping gaming: my wife and i resumed playing two weeks after she got out of hospital. We game at our place, where we have two adjacent rooms - so when it is feeding time, she simply goes to the other room, where she can hear the GM and takes the charsheet with her. I roll the dice for her if she performs something and she does the talking for her char. It really works very well and the other players don't mind. Apart from that our now 14 weeks old son enjoys other people - the more and louder the better. We think this is because he became used to loud noises and other people very early. Also he sleeps better when we had visitors than when a day was calm.

One other advice that hasn't appeared yet: When you are about to bathe your kids, you have to control the temperature of the water very exactly. DON'T trust one thermometer. Use two - one of them digital. We always wondered that the water was apparently rather cold but the thermo (special one for bathing kids that floats in the tub) showed the perfect temperature and our son was screaming as soon as he came into contact with the water. At the third time we used another thermometer (digital that time) that showed a temperature 5(!) degrees Celsius LOWER than the floating one. As soon as we warmed the water up to the fitting temperature, our boy was sitting in the water, enjoying it and  laughing.

Dougal


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## Harmon (Aug 5, 2005)

Thank you all very much that kinda helped.  

Well wishes are greeted with many thanks.    

I have lots of books to read, and stuff to learn (I have not changed a diaper in fifteen years  :\ ) I know that.  Most of what I need to know will come from the experience of trying to work things out.  Players and GMs will have to endure and hopefully I can find some people that want to watch Junior when we wish to game.

Have to go, wife is calling.  Thank you all.


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## Guillaume (Aug 5, 2005)

Dingleberry said:
			
		

> When my wife was pregnant, we heard tons of advice/anecdotes about being a parent.  I'll pass along the simplest and truest of it: it is _so much harder_ than you think it will be, and it is _so much BETTER_ than you think it will be.




I'll second part of that.  As a young parent, Vincent is three month old today, it has been much better than I thought it would be.  I haven't managed to game again since his arrival, even though Julie is as much a gamer as I am.  But we keep trying.

A friend of mine once told me: «Before you become a parent, you always have good reasons not to become one.  Once you become a parent, you realize that all the reasons given are not worth much in the end.» I smiled at the time he told me that.  Now that I'm a parent, all I can say is that he was so very right.

Therefore, congratulations.  After ten years of trying, getting twins is a blessing.  I wish you luck and you and your wife will find a way to keep on gaming.  Good luck.


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## Greatwyrm (Aug 5, 2005)

I don't have a lot of substance to add, so I'll keep it simple.

1.  Don't freak out.  No matter how prepared you think you are, you won't be prepared.

2.  Don't freak out.  No matter how unprepared you think you are, you will make it.

3.  Time with your little ones is the single most valuable commodity you will ever have.  Ever.


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## danzig138 (Aug 5, 2005)

The positives - Well, you get to play God and try to create little personalities to match your whims. 
Negatives - Children belive it is better to rule in hell than serve in heaven. 
 
I have 2 - a 9 year old daughter and 11 year old son. The plus side is really that, unless your luck truly sucks, you'll get to see a couple of really cool people develop. Both of mine are pains in the posterior sometimes, and there are a couple of issues we have difficulties with, but overall, they are really cool people. My daughter is starting to get interested in my gaming books, and that's nifty. My son likes wrestling, although he doesn't belive me when I tell him that Undertaker is over the hill. 

The negatives aren't really negatives. I occasionally have a difficulty remembering that they aren't me - they don't think like I do, they don't handle situations the way I do. They are seperate and distinct people, so personality clashes are not uncommon. I'd rather them clash with me than be clones though. Your sleep might be impacted for a while, but you and the SO should be able to work something out. In my case, I got up and dealt with the children. Of course, I'm a stay at home dad, so that's my job. Figuring out what they need when screaming is sometimes frustrating. 

Gaming and little children. Do you have parents or siblings who can watch them? If so, use them. My SO's parents loved watching the kids, and my SO doesn't game (tried it a couple times, didn't care for it), so having the kids didn't really interfere in my gaming. If not, then, as others have said, try to game at your house. Up until a couple of years ago, most of my players had kids as well, so everyone was cool about things. 

Get a heavy bag. Few things grate on me as much as the sounds of kids crying and screaming. I found having a heavy bag a wonderful outlet for any anger or frustration. Plus it's the only exercise I really enjoy. 

Don't know if any of this will help. Good luck and congratulations.


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## Harmon (Aug 12, 2005)

Mrs Harmon has been sick the last few days- nearing two weeks now, she keeps saying that the first trimester is the worst (the books and her Doctor told her that).  Lots of weakness, coming home from work, getting a little green about the gills (not lost it yet though), and just generally being a lazy little bum   

She is great.  

She and I don't read so fast or very well, but she is eating up the list of books you all gave me, while I have only finished two of them.

Simple question- how bad was your woman's (or yours) pregnency?  Was there a lot of sickness, tired, soreness, etc?


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## Wyn A'rienh (Aug 12, 2005)

How funny - I just read a response of yours in another thread and thought to myself - "I wonder how Mrs. Harmon is doing ... I should dig up that post and ask".  

Now, I hate to ask, especially if the answer is not a pleasant one, but is she still pregnant with two?  I know there was some question of whether or not the littler one was going to make it.  I certainly hope all is well there ... 

As to your question - my pregnancies were hell.  Both the singleton pregnancy and the twin pregnancy.  I had "morning" sickness all day every day for four months, with both.  And with the twins, I was just miserable.  I'm only 5'2 and kinda petite so it was hard on my body - I think when I gave birth I was up to about 200 pounds.  My legs and feet did not appreciate my standing up.  Soreness galore, nasty heartburn ... not to mention the 9 or so weeks of strict bedrest.  Oy.

Anyway.  For comfort, I can suggest a few things that really helped me - 

1. A body pillow.  Probably the best purchase I ever made while pregnant (besides the king size bed).  It really helped my back and legs.  I think they're maybe $10 at K-Mart.  Or, if you've got the money and wanna go fancy, you could try something like this.

2. Tums. I lived on Tums. I kept a huge bottle beside my bed at night so that when the nasty heartburn woke me up, I could just pop a couple and go right back to sleep.  

3. A back brace.  I imagine all maternity stores have them, but I got mine at Motherhood.  It's just a band of elastic that you wrap around you, under your belly.  It really helps, if she's gonna be doing any considerable walking.


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## Micah (Aug 12, 2005)

Pregnancy can really be miserable. It isn't for everyone mind you, but personally I'd rather go through labor a couple of times than the first trimester, early second trimester sicky stage.

Morning sickness has degrees. Some folks don't get it, some feel queasy, some throw up every morning, some of us lucky gals got to continue throwing up until we ended up in ER with an IV.

I second the body pillow. Also ask your care giver about Unisom. It has the same ingredients as anti-nauseau meds. I found the stuff to be a lifesaver (recommended by my nurse practitioner) for the green stage and the "How-can-I-sleep=when=I-feel-like-a-beached-whale" stage.

It's downright normal to feel tired, achy, and nasty. But when the tired reaches exhaustion, the achy gets worse than the flu, and if you are steadily loosing weight or getting dehydrated due to morning sickness - you prolly need to be talking to a medical professional. 

It's one of those times in life where if it's feasible - try to give yourself lots of rest and relaxation (hobby time - etc.) to try and take your mind off how miserable you feel. Our grocery bill was always worse when I was pregnant. Not that I could keep food down but when I wanted something to eat I needed it now. If it had a long preparation time - I usually couldn't eat it by the time I got it fixed - that meant lots of frozen and microwavable dishes.

I'm sure the baby books have told you, but if you can get some crackers or pretzels down before you get out of bed, sometimes that helps ease the nausea. Some folks find success with ginger snaps or ginger pills. Gatorade also can help if you have a day where the morning sickness is getting you dehydrated. It absorbs quicker than juice or water - but you got to watch what flavors you try - some of them just aren't palatable when you are queasy.

Hope that helps. And I hope alls well with Mom, Dad and the little ones.


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## BlackSilver (Aug 16, 2005)

Hay, Harmon, how about an update?    

Some of us are curious.


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## Harmon (Aug 17, 2005)

Hay all   

Not much to report.

Went to the doctor with the wife yesterday (8/15) and got to listen to _the_ heart beat.  I looked at the doctor, and she frowned- "just one," she said, looking a little down.  My heart sank, my eyes welled, I swallowed my breath and nodded my understanding.

Its not confirmed with a sonagram but after all we have heard, felt and what we have learned we are pretty sure that Junior (Junior is our sexless name for the baby) is just one.  

There is some testing my wife has to take- genetics or something, not sure why we can't have her hospital do it and ship the test to the tester, but out of town we go.      We are gonna make what we can of it.

She has been sick, but not losing anything- just a tire, about to hurl, sore as hell kinda thing that keeps her sleepy all the time.

Not much else to report.

Once again thank you, people of EN World, its kinda cool that you all are out there willing to listen and give advice.  Take care.


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## Wyn A'rienh (Aug 17, 2005)

I wish there were something I could say.  

You and Mrs. Harmon (and Junior) are in my thoughts.


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## Harmon (Aug 17, 2005)

Wyn A'rienh said:
			
		

> I wish there were something I could say.
> 
> You and Mrs. Harmon (and Junior) are in my thoughts.




You have that great icon    and positive thoughts.

Thank you, Wyn that is good enough.


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## Psionicist (Aug 17, 2005)

The only advice I can give: _Please_ only raise _your_ kids. 

Thanks.


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## BlackSilver (Aug 24, 2005)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> The only advice I can give: _Please_ only raise _your_ kids.
> 
> Thanks.




I am not a parent so I guess I might be guilty of this, but I am not sure.  

Is this like me giving advice to a parent?

Or would this be like Harmon correction someone else's child about how to act in public?


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## Desdichado (Aug 24, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> Simple question- how bad was your woman's (or yours) pregnency?  Was there a lot of sickness, tired, soreness, etc?



Yes, all of the above.  My wife was mostly only sick during the first trimester, but the rest of that was pretty much a constant.  And don't forget the swelling.  For some reason she soaks up water like a sponge when she's pregnant; can't wear her sandals, rings, etc. very well.

Not that that stopped her from doing much.  But yeah, my wife hated being pregnant every time.  In fact, she hated it more every time than she did the last.


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## reveal (Aug 24, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Yes, all of the above.  My wife was mostly only sick during the first trimester, but the rest of that was pretty much a constant.  And don't forget the swelling.  For some reason she soaks up water like a sponge when she's pregnant; can't wear her sandals, rings, etc. very well.
> 
> Not that that stopped her from doing much.  But yeah, my wife hated being pregnant every time.  In fact, she hated it more every time than she did the last.




Geez! And she *still* let you even come near her? Talk about a brave woman. 

BTW, JD, check this out when you get a chance.


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## Desdichado (Aug 24, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Geez! And she *still* let you even come near her? Talk about a brave woman.



Heck, she was the instigator!  I was always the much more passive voice in the decision of when to have kids.

Of course, once the decision was made, I sprang into action immediately.  IYKWIMAITYD.


			
				reveal said:
			
		

> BTW, JD, check this out when you get a chance.



Surfing there right now.


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## Harmon (Aug 31, 2005)

Little update then I am gonna be leaving EN for a little while.  Things have happened or rather continued to happen and I am not feeling good about them.

My wife went through Fading Twin Syndrome, so we lost the fact of the twins.      We have pictures, and the note in my wife's file that there were twins, but little else.    

Got a call today- 46 chromosomes, and all looking rather healthy.  We also found out that the baby is gonna be a girl    which is just as great as having a little boy to me and my wife.  

Its a good day, but I am finding it hard to be anything but down because of what is happening else where.  You all take care.


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## Wyn A'rienh (Aug 31, 2005)

A girl!  And a healthy girl!  Great news!  

I'm sorry to hear you're not going to be around, as I look forward to your updates.  I hope everything is (or becomes) okay.  

Take care.


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## Steve Jung (Aug 31, 2005)

My condolences on the loss of one of the twins. Take care and we'll see you when you come bcak.


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## BlackSilver (Aug 31, 2005)

A little girl !!!  Perfect!  Don't forget to name her after me   .

I am sorry.  I felt very bad all night about things I said here and in others posts.  I will do what I can to avoid you in the future.


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