# Arcane Disciple - this can't be right!



## messy (Jun 1, 2006)

allo

in _Complete Arcane_, there is a feat called "arcane disciple." the feat seems (if i am reading it right) to allow an arcane caster to add spells from a single domain to his/her class spell list.

if this is correct, a sorcerer could choose the healing domain, and gain access to healing spells. this can't be right.

am i missing something?

messy


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## Iku Rex (Jun 1, 2006)

messy said:
			
		

> am i missing something?



No. (?)

Note that said socerer will need four ranks of knowledge (religion) and a decent Wis, and he can only cast each spell once/day.


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## messy (Jun 1, 2006)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> No. (?)
> 
> Note that said socerer will need four ranks of knowledge (religion) and a decent Wis, and he can only cast each spell once/day.




good point. the required skill ranks are obtainable at level 5 (as knowledge [religion] is a cross-class skill), but i didn't realize that the spells can only be cast once each per day. must have missed that  

messy


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## Corsair (Jun 1, 2006)

And the sorcerer still has to spend known spells on them.  They are added to the class list, not to known spells.


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## Seeten (Jun 1, 2006)

Worse still, now the Sorcerer is expected to spend his time healing, instead of blasting, which is usually not the reason one plays a Sorcerer.


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## messy (Jun 1, 2006)

Corsair said:
			
		

> And the sorcerer still has to spend known spells on them.  They are added to the class list, not to known spells.




hmmm... this seems to contradict what Iku Rex said.

are the domain spells usable once per day each (as Iku Rex said) or just like other chosen spells (as Corsair's statement seems to imply)?

 

messy


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## Caliban (Jun 1, 2006)

messy said:
			
		

> hmmm... this seems to contradict what Iku Rex said.
> 
> are the domain spells usable once per day each (as Iku Rex said) or just like other chosen spells (as Corsair's statement seems to imply)?
> 
> ...




Both.   You have to spend one of your Known Spell slots to learn the domain spell, and you can only cast it once a day.

It's a pretty poor deal for sorcerers in general: it costs you 4 ranks of a cross-class skill, a feat, and one of your known spell slots to cast one spell once a day.

It's a better deal for wizards: it's not a cross class skill, they get more feats, and they can potentially add all the domain spells to their spell book and prepare each of them once a day.

It's a great deal for warmages and beguilers, since they automatically "know" all the spells on their class list when they reach the appropriate level.


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## messy (Jun 1, 2006)

Caliban said:
			
		

> Both.   You have to spend one of your Known Spell slots to learn the domain spell, and you can only cast it once a day.
> 
> It's a pretty poor deal for sorcerers in general: it costs you 4 ranks of a cross-class skill, a feat, and one of your known spell slots to cast one spell once a day.
> 
> ...




ahhh... now i see. thank you, caliban  

still, it doesn't seem right to give sorcerers and wizards access to healing... i thought this was a big no-no in terms of class balance  

messy


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## WarDragon (Jun 1, 2006)

Keep in mind that the spells gained by the feat are powered, in all respects, by Wisdom instead of the class's normal casting stat.


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## messy (Jun 1, 2006)

WarDragon said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that the spells gained by the feat are powered, in all respects, by Wisdom instead of the class's normal casting stat.




so, if bob the sorcerer has a 16 wisdom and takes arcane disciple (healing), when he reaches level 12, he could cast CLW, CMW, CSW, CCW, Mass CLW, and Heal once each per day? this seems pretty powerful for a class that is not supposed to be able to heal.

messy


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## Corsair (Jun 2, 2006)

messy said:
			
		

> so, if bob the sorcerer has a 16 wisdom and takes arcane disciple (healing), when he reaches level 12, he could cast CLW, CMW, CSW, CCW, Mass CLW, and Heal once each per day? this seems pretty powerful for a class that is not supposed to be able to heal.
> 
> messy




But how many sorcerers are willing to spend a known spell on a spell they can only cast once a day?


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## Seeten (Jun 2, 2006)

Its a great deal for Dread Necromancers too...but not for the healing domain. There might be a different domain thats great for them


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## ThirdWizard (Jun 2, 2006)

Corsair said:
			
		

> But how many sorcerers are willing to spend a known spell on a spell they can only cast once a day?




I don't have the book, but based on this thread...

If the function of the feat is to put them on your class list don't spend the Known slot on them! Take the feat, then just use spell completion items that have these spells in them. The sorcerer can take the feat, grab some wands, maybe a staff of healing, and a bunch of scrolls, and he's good to go. Adding to spells known is unnecessary.


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## vulcan_idic (Jun 2, 2006)

This strikes me as the sort of rule constructed with "non-standard" parties in mind - i.e. one with no divine caster.  Gives them access to some restorative magic resources, thus making up slightly for a lack of a cleric, while not detracting too much, or on the contrary even adding to, from a particular character's concept.


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## Drowbane (Jun 2, 2006)

*"Borken!!"*

I'd like to address the notion that Arcanists (Wiz, Sorc, Wu Jen, War Mage, etc, etc) being able to cast limited healing is broken.

Not only is it not broken for a "High Wis" Wizard to cast a few healing spells... It doesn't even step on anybodies toes!  Ask your typical Cleric how he feels about (typically) being the only one in the party who can (or will) heal.  

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to open up healing to the Arcanists for nothing... the Arcane Disciple (Healing Domain) does it nicely as is... but Joe-bob the Wonder-nuker being able to occassionally heal some daily in addition to the normal D&D* spells that he gets...

It is my opinion that "BROKEN!!" gets thrown around far too much on these boards. 

*Death and Destruction(tm)


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## Bront (Jun 2, 2006)

messy said:
			
		

> ahhh... now i see. thank you, caliban
> 
> still, it doesn't seem right to give sorcerers and wizards access to healing... i thought this was a big no-no in terms of class balance
> 
> messy



How is that Unbalancing?  It's more been a distinction between the two casters than a required distinction.  Look at the wizard and repair damage, where they can heal warforged.


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## JonnyFive (Jun 2, 2006)

Drowbane said:
			
		

> I'd like to address the notion that Arcanists (Wiz, Sorc, Wu Jen, War Mage, etc, etc) being able to cast limited healing is broken.
> 
> Not only is it not broken for a "High Wis" Wizard to cast a few healing spells... It doesn't even step on anybodies toes!  Ask your typical Cleric how he feels about (typically) being the only one in the party who can (or will) heal.
> 
> ...





in this spirit i must say Use Magic Device!  a high enough rogue can "cast" any spell they want with the proper tools.  allowing the acrane side the ability to gain restoritive spells at a limited rate isn't that overpowering.


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## Jedi_Solo (Jun 2, 2006)

Not to mention that Bards can also cast healing spells.  I know some people are against the "Arcane Healing" and have been since Bards got the ability I don't think it's such a bad idea.  

It will never be a major part of the Wizard/Sorceror aspect (at least in 3.X) but it always helps to have a backup healer in case the Cleric can't make it to the session or the Cleric goes down in battle themselves.

There is a high cost (skill points, feat) to the ability for limited use (1/day per spell).  I don't expect to see get used that much and even then it will likely be for the ability to use wands and similar items.


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## ARandomGod (Jun 2, 2006)

messy said:
			
		

> ahhh... now i see. thank you, caliban
> 
> still, it doesn't seem right to give sorcerers and wizards access to healing... i thought this was a big no-no in terms of class balance
> 
> messy




As someone who's given arcane casters the ability to heal in many campaigns, I can attest that it doesn't affect balance all that much really.  Indeed if anything it makes the cleric class stronger, as the healing onus is more spread out. 
Adittedly I give arcanist 'alternative' healing, meaning either less effective straight healing or healing with some other cost.  But noone other than strict traditionalists have every complained at all, and even those who complain out of the knee-jerk "It's Never Been That Way" philosophy usually end up likeing the effect.



			
				Drowbane said:
			
		

> Not only is it not broken for a "High Wis" Wizard to cast a few healing spells... It doesn't even step on anybodies toes!  Ask your typical Cleric how he feels about (typically) being the only one in the party who can (or will) heal.




Yes.  As I said, it actually strengthens clerics, and in fact I've had arcane casters complain about their ability to heal, as it's ability and therefore expectation effectively weakens their other ability, that of NON healing casting.


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## Particle_Man (Jun 2, 2006)

messy said:
			
		

> so, if bob the sorcerer has a 16 wisdom and takes arcane disciple (healing), when he reaches level 12, he could cast CLW, CMW, CSW, CCW, Mass CLW, and Heal once each per day? this seems pretty powerful for a class that is not supposed to be able to heal.
> 
> messy




But if you are a soceror, then Wis is one of your dump stats.  You already have a good will save progression, and you need Chr, and Con and Dex should have higher priority than Wis.


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## nogray (Jun 2, 2006)

*A little more healing*

Of course, if you qualify for (and take) Arcane Disciple: Healing, you also qualify for the Spontaneous Healer feat so long as you are not evil. I think that means that, for the cost of an additional feat, you can cast those cure spells an additional number of times equal to your Wisdom bonus per day. In fact, you could take Arcane Disciple (this step is optional for Bards), take any one cure spell as a spell known (Wizard in spellbook, Sorcerer as Spell Known, etc.) then take the Spontaneous Healer feat and avoid taking any of the other spells as Spells Known. You would still have access to them via the Spontaneous Healer feat.

The question I have, then, is this: Does the limit on the number of times a spell can be cast (from Arcane Disciple) apply to the spontaneously cast spells? (My inintial opinion is that it does not.)

Another, related question: If you take multiple versions of Arcane Disciple (for example, Healing and Strength via Pelor), does the limitation of one spell per spell level mean one spell total or one spell from each domain per spell level? (My interpretation of the literal rules is one per spell level regardless of the number of times Arcane Disciple is selected, but I might be inclined to ignore that in favor of the fact that the character is using another feat and might deserve a little extra benefit.)


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