# Arcane Necromancy is not Inferior?(The Cleric vs. the Death Master)



## Takhisis (Sep 8, 2010)

Clerics make better necromancers then wizards. This is a sad but true fact. Necromancy is usually a poor choice for a wizard and most necromancy specialists usually end up as conjurers who like negative energy and prepare a few more necromancy spells then normal. Of course there's always the great Dread Necromancer class, but while it's an awesome class and concept, it's spell list was handled rather poorly. They don't get desecrate, death ward appears twice on their list at two different spell levels for no apparent reason, they have planar binding spells but lack magic circle and while it's more an annoying nitpick on my part, they STILL get animate dead at a higher level then a cleric gets it. It seams arcane necromancers just can't get a break.

One class changes that, though. The Death Master, a 3rd party update of an old 1e class from dragon magazine. The Death Master is, in my mind, what a true arcane necromancer should be. To see how good a necromancer the Death Master can be, it is best to compare him to the best necromancer in 3.5e, the Cleric.


One of the reason wizards fall behind as necromancers is a lack of rebuking. Dread Necromancers fixed this issue and so to dose the Death Master. He gets rebuking just like a DN or cleric. Despite this, a DN still rebukes better then him due to having charisma as their casting stat, but a Death Master can still rebuke on the same level as a cleric, which is more then enough in most cases. The cleric is also seen as superior to the wizard because he has key spells the wizard lacks such as desecrate, and gets animate dead much earlier then the wizard. While the Death Master may not have all the necromantic spells of a cleric due to the fact so much supplementary material exists for clerics, he has all the key ones, including desecrate. Unlike a cleric, a Death master dose not get Animate Dead as a Level 3 though.  Bad, right? Actually, no, because the Death Master is the ONLY Arcane Necromancer to actually get animate dead SOONER then a cleric, as a level 2 spell. 

However, there are still 2 things the cleric has on the Death Master in terms of necromancy. The first is that while the cleric gets all his spells for free, a Death Master gains his spells in the same manner as a wizard, getting a limited number as he levels and the rest having to come from scrolls. While this can be annoying for some, people who play Wizards are not bothered by it and since the Death Master's spell list includes some of the best arcane exclusive core spells(enough to put them at tier 1.) the learning from scrolls is a fair trade off. The other glaring advantage clerics(and DNs) have is the ability to increase the number of undead they can control. Clerics usually do this via the deathbound domain, while DNs get a level 8 class feature that dose this. The Death Master gets neither domain access nor a fancy class feature to grow their undead HD limit, so as they stand, their army will be smaller then a cleric with the deathbound domain or a dread necromancer, unless of course you get creative and take an obscure feat called "planar touchstone."

"Planar Touchstone" by RAW is a feat that makes you go on a sidequest to get a special ability. There is a plethora of side quests, each which reward you with a special power. One of them allows you to chose and gain the granted power of a cleric domain of your choice. Chose deathbound. Now you are on par with a cleric who has that domain. While the sidequest can be a MAJOR annoyance that can break you away from a campaign, I have found that many DMs if you ask them will wave the sidequest requirement and let you get the power and say you did the quest "off-screen." Just remember, the  DM is  the one who actually creatred the campaign in the first place. Chances are he/she would be EVEN more annoyed then you with having to run you through a side quest which breaks the flow of his/her campaign and takes up the time of the other players who are forced to sit around and wait for you to get to some statue in another dimension. Most DMs(At least the ones I've played with and myself) will be  happy to just say the sidequest happened "off-screen" so you all can get on with your campaign, just make sure you consult them on it.

So, now that we're through with that, you can at least see how, with the proper feats, a Death Master can be an arcane necromancer who's on-par with a cleric. Rebuking, all the key necromancy spells, early animate dead, and access to the deathbound domain power. The Death Master thus has everything that makes the cleric the best necromancer in the game, though that's not to say the death master is overall better then the cleric. What it dose mean is that with a bit of third party content, and the right feats, you can finally play the archtyple skinny, black robed necromancer and not be inferior to the buff guy in spiky black full plate standing in front of you in your all evil party. So, is the Death Master as good a Necromancer as a Cleric? At least in my book, the answer to that question is yes.


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## Jack Simth (Sep 8, 2010)

Takhisis said:


> Clerics make better necromancers then wizards. This is a sad but true fact.



Not really.  See, while Clerics can Rebuke undead for permanent control (really useful with the intelligent undead), that's an Instant effect, and is trumped the lowly Command Undead, which offers no save to non-intelligent undead, and lasts days/level.  Clerics get the base undead spell (Animate Dead) a level earlier (which also permits some tricks, like making Oils of Animate Dead for followers), and they also get Desecrate for boosting the undead on creation, they don't get the bonus feats for the Corpsecrafter line (Libris Mortis) that the Wizard does, and the Cleric doesn't get access to the Specialized Necromancer Variant Class Features that the Wizard does. 

Wizards make better Necromancers than Clerics do.  Especially with Planar Binding, which permits the Wizard to Call up critters that can make undead much more cheaply... some of which include Clerical casting.


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## HoboGod (Sep 8, 2010)

First of all, even though WotC publishes Dragon Magazine, I'm more likely to find DMs that allow third party books than anything related to Dragon Magazine, which makes Death Master out of the question to most players.

Secondly, a much bigger issue for the arcane necromancer is that they don't get inflict spells. Dread Necromancer resolves this, but the spell list is atrocious. I'd rather take Wizard and provide fireball support or take Cleric and provide buffs and fighter support (or take Mystic Theurge and provide a bit of everything.)


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## Takhisis (Sep 8, 2010)

Technically, the Death Master IS a 3rd party class, or at least the 3.5 version is. The Death Master featured in dragon was a 1e/AD&D class from like the 1980s. The 3.5e Death Master was actually created by Pazio Publishing and is from the Dragon Magizene compendium, which is a book by Pazio that takes old AD&D races and classes from Dragon and creates 3.5e versions of them. Thus, the Dragon Compendium, while it's materal are based on old Dragon Magizene issues, is not directly related to Dragon and it's classes(and races) are basicly homebrew made by Pazio that takes names, race and class concepts from old 1980s/AD&D dragon mags but keeps the classes distinctly unique to Pazio.

So, yeah, as far as the Death Master goes, the 3.5e version was never featured in a dragon magazine issue and it was created by the same people who made pathfinder, not dragon. It only draws inspiration from an issue of dragon which came out in the 80s, so if your DM dislikes Dragon Magizene material for it's broken-ness and whatnot, then the Death Master should not be an issue for him/her so long as he/she is made aware that the class was created by Pazio and inspired by a pre-3.5e issue of dragon rather then actually being created by dragon.

As for wizards being necromancers, they are not bad necromancers, it's just that clerics completely outshine them in the area of necromancy. Control/Command undead is also, not superior to rebuking, despite what you say. Yes, there is no save, but the issue with those spells is they only target one undead. This thus makes the spells inferior to rebuking in the sense you need to waste valuable spell slots on multiple casts of a single spell while a cleric, DN or Death Master can do generally the same thing via rebuking and not waste spell slots. Also, saying Planar Binding makes a wizard a good necromancer is like saying wish makes a wizard a great enchanter. Planar binding is an overall good spell, but not a necromancy spell. While it can aid a necromancer, it dose not make him a better necromancer then a cleric because it's not even necromancy, it's conjuration, hence my comment in the OP about wizard necromancers being conjurers who prepare more necromancy spells then usual. Wizard based necros need to rely on non-necromancy spells to even compete with clerics, and a necromancer, at least to me, should be relying on...well...necromancy and when a necromancer has to use overpowered non-necromancy spells just to compete with a cleric in the necro department, he's rather inferior at least in my book.


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## HoboGod (Sep 8, 2010)

Takhisis said:


> Technically, the Death Master IS a 3rd party class, or at least the 3.5 version is. . . so if your DM dislikes Dragon Magizene material for it's broken-ness and whatnot, then the Death Master should not be an issue. . . .




Nope, the DMs that allow 3rd party material are only slightly less rare for me. I tend to find DMs that are okay with *some* 3rd party feats, items, or five level prestige classes, but I've never found a DM that allows an entire class.


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## HoboGod (Sep 8, 2010)

Takhisis said:


> The other glaring advantage clerics(and DNs) have is the ability to increase the number of undead they can control. Clerics usually do this via the deathbound domain, while DNs get a level 8 class feature that dose this.




This is a minor point, so I didn't address it in my post, but my girlfriend got her hopes up when she thought she could raise her necromancer's max undead after reading your post. Deathbound Domain does not grant additional the ability to control extra undead, this was a mistake in the text, later fixed in the errata.



			
				Libris Mortis Errata said:
			
		

> Under the domain’s granted power, change the word “controlling” to “creating,” so that the granted power reads as follows: “Your limit for creating undead animated with spells increases to three times your caster level instead of the normal two times caster level.”


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## Takhisis (Sep 8, 2010)

Thanks. I was not aware of the eratta and either are the people I play with. I'm sorry for not knowing about it, so thanks again for alerting me. As for DMs that allow third party content, I've seen plenty of them, though that dose not mean I don't believe you. On the contrary, I don't expect every DM to allow this class and I understand that for every laid back DM out there there is also a DM who wants to stick to the books. All of this in the end, depends on your DM, but the point of this thread is not to say "If you want to play an arcane necromancer, play a death master." Rather the point is "The myth that arcane necromancers are inferior is foolish BECAUSE of the Death Master." 

While I will definitely admit that a wizard is inferior as a necromancer when compared to a cleric, for the kind of DMs you play with there is always the Dread Necromancer, and while there are issues with it's spell list, the DN is actually, at least in my books, the best NECROMANCER in the game. In early levels a DN kinda sucks and is more gish then necromancer, but once they hit level 8 they outshine even the cleric and, yes, the death master due to their undead mastery ability.  The only issue with DNs is their botched spell list, though if your DM is not a total "by the books" type then he/she should at the least let you have magic circle to make use of those Planar Binding spells. In fact, if you are nice enough and they are willing to work with you, then he/she may let you even fix some of the other spell list issues the DNs have such as the double death ward, lack of desecrate and Animate Dead as a level 4(though for some thats a minor point. For me it's a big deal, though.)

Oh, and since DNs have high charisma, if you mannage to get one to epic there are some nice epic feats that you can take that deal with, well...necromancy. Zone of Animation comes to mind...However, I am not sure these feats are actually real since I first learned of them from the Neverwinter Nights PrC pack, which included them plus a lot of 3.5e classes, spells, feats ect..

But anyway, as I said, I'm not trying to say that you HAVE to play a Death Master to be a good arcane necromancer and I'm sorry if the OP came off that way. The point was to dispel the myth that Arcane < Divine as far as necromancy goes, using the Death Master as the means to dispel that myth. Why not do it with a wizard? Well...a Wizard is still a sup-par necromancer who relies more on conjuration spells then actual spells of the necromancy school, but that dose not make him bad. He's still a Tier 1 and still stronger then the DN on a purely powergaming level, but the DN, Cleric and Death Master all make better necromancers then him because they have acssess to the key spells that a wizard lacks. They get inflict spells to heal their undead minions, desecrate(sans the DN) to power them up, all the nice save or die spells like destruction and slay living that the wizard lacks. 

The only thing the wizard has on the cleric is his debuffs and like spells, and a cleric can obtain many of those "arcane exclusive" spells via domains. The wizard, however has no way at all to gain access to any of the inflict spells, desicrate and other key clerical spells he lacks unless he becomes a Mystic Theurge or takes the arcane disciple feat. The former of which is not the most optimal PrC there is and can be rather stinky unless you use some weird and cheesy tricks which most DMs would say no too.(Alternate Spell Source, Illumian abuse and the Ur-Priest Class come to mind.) 

Arcane Disciple is an ok feat, but it forces you to put some points into wisdom, a traditional dump stat for wizards. So if you are in a tight point buy having to spend points in a dumb stat will detract from your more important stats and that can become an issue.  However, if your DM is generous with point buys and usually gives 32 or more points to work with, Arcane Disciple can be somewhat helpful. I would use it to take the undeath domain, personally. It gives you Desecrate, Animate Dead as a level 3, and all the higher level spells don't matter since you get them on your own spell list. This is a good thing, though, because it means you only are forced to have 13 wisdom since Desecrate and Animate Dead are not offensive spells(and thus don't need to worry about save DCs.) and you don't need access to the higher level spells since they are all on your list and you can learn them the old fashion way. 

As for healing your undead, that's a bit tricker. You won't get inflict spells unless you become a theurge type character, and ever since they got rid of some spells like Negative Energy Burst wizards  have far less options  in the healing of their minions. There is however, one way, but it's extremely feat intensive and forces you to use evocation spells, and evocation is usually the first school specialized wizards put to the axe. I am of course speaking of the "uttercold assault necromancer" who uses the energy substitution(cold) and Lord of the Uttercold feat to turn all his blasty evocation spells into cold spells which also do negative energy damage and thus heal their undead. This is actually, the only thing necromanticly that the Wizard dose BETTER then the cleric. They can simply go around with their undead, blasting everything and healing their undead at the same time. Add in Fell Animate for even more fun. However, despite the effectiveness of the "Uttercold Assault Necromancer" it takes a while to get there and is fairly feat intensive, which means you have less feats to spend on stuff like metamagic and corpsecrafter goodies.


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## TanisFrey (Sep 16, 2010)

True Necromancer Prestige class from Libris Mortis, on page 51-53, Is the best necromancer build I have seen.  Start with a wizard 3/cleric 3 with death domain.  The class has 14 levels to it.  You get good abilities like Create Undead 1/day and Zone of desecration the follows you around, horrid wilting, energy drain and wail of the banshee.  There is some ability at every level.  All levels except the first 2 level both your arcane and divine spellcasting improves.

You can end up being a better Necromancer than a Wizard or Cleric at the cost of being limited to 8th level spells in both classes at 20th level.  However, your rebuke undead is better than a pure cleric.


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## Starbuck_II (Sep 16, 2010)

TanisFrey said:


> True Necromancer Prestige class from Libris Mortis, on page 51-53, Is the best necromancer build I have seen. Start with a wizard 3/cleric 3 with death domain. The class has 14 levels to it. You get good abilities like Create Undead 1/day and Zone of desecration the follows you around, horrid wilting, energy drain and wail of the banshee. There is some ability at every level. All levels except the first 2 level both your arcane and divine spellcasting improves.
> 
> You can end up being a better Necromancer than a Wizard or Cleric at the cost of being limited to 8th level spells in both classes at 20th level. However, your rebuke undead is better than a pure cleric.




I'm not sure how being worse at casting as a straight level wizard or Cleric makes you a better Necromancer. 

Remember a Wizard level 17 can cast Wail of the Banshee more than 1/day unlike your hypothetical dude And energy drain... and horrid wilting....

It, however, does progress Rebuking ability though decent for a multiclassed Cleric/arcane class so you got me there.


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## TanisFrey (Sep 17, 2010)

Starbuck_II said:


> I'm not sure how being worse at casting as a straight level wizard or Cleric makes you a better Necromancer.
> 
> Remember a Wizard level 17 can cast Wail of the Banshee more than 1/day unlike your hypothetical dude And energy drain... and horrid wilting....
> 
> It, however, does progress Rebuking ability though decent for a multiclassed Cleric/arcane class so you got me there.



I took a closer look at the class last night.  You end up being a equal to a 15 wizard/ 15 cleric for spell casting and 19 effective caster level for Necromancy spells (either class and spell-like abilities) and a 19th level cleric for rebuking with a zone of desceration of 160 feet around you that moves with you.


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## NEXxREX (Oct 15, 2011)

Takhisis said:


> the DN is actually, at least in my books, the best NECROMANCER in the game. In early levels a DN kinda sucks and is more gish then necromancer, but once they hit level 8 they outshine even the cleric and, yes, the death master due to their undead mastery ability.  The only issue with DNs is their botched spell list





seems like your qualifications for the best necromancer are being able to cast desecrate and getting animate dead as early as possible.

dread necromancer is amazing as a necromancer cause that's what its designed to do. the spell list is the balancing factor to make it less ridiculous. cause 4+Cha HD/Lv for animate undead trumps everything a clerics got. plus you could go 3 lvs of cleric you could take mystic theurge/true necro and then you have got the best necromancer possible.

and clerics are decent necromancers but they are far from the best.

early level necromancers yes cleric is pretty good but at later levels they get blown away.


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## Ranger19k (Oct 15, 2011)

Ironically, this *IS* a thread on necromancy.


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## NEXxREX (Oct 15, 2011)

Ranger19k said:


> Ironically, this *IS* a thread on necromancy.




???


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