# Dual Shield Ranger build help



## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm thinking of making a Ranger using the Shield and Weapon style from APG, goal of using two Heavy spiked Bashing shields by level 6.  With Ranger, he can get Shield Slam at 2 and Shield Master at 6, so he can dual wield the shields w/o penalty and get a free bull rush on every hit.  That's the basic concept.  I'm not sure what do actually _do_ with that, though.

I could go for Greater Bull Rush to make each push back provoke, but I'm not sure it's worth it.  You see, Shield Slam doesn't use CMB, it uses your attack roll, so the bonuses from Improved and Greater are worthless.  Further, even if he uses two one-handed weapons (the heavy shields), my understanding is that Power Attack would still only be +1 damage on the "off-hand."  Which...IMO isn't worth it unless I'm having a major problem with someone's DR.  So, I'm not sure 3 feats just to make it provoke is worth it.  It'd help if I knew the party make-up, like if we have a battlefield control mage then just knocking people into "the suck" is probably a viable enough contribution to the party, for example.

Also not sure of race.  I really really like dwarf, but str is the most important stat and I need to actually qualify for the TWF line, so high dex is unfortunately also important.  Not sure I can afford a race that doesn't boost either of those.  So, maybe Tengu or Oread instead?  Or Human, but I try to avoid playing humans whenever possible.

Finally, I'm not sure what I should do after Ranger 6.  Ranger 10 I can get Bashing Finish which isn't bad.  But I'd be open to a prestige class or multiclass if it can give me some new combat options, too.  Does anyone recommend a Ranger archetype?  It seems like Guide or normal Ranger is the best for my concept.

Thanks for your help.

UPDATE: Based upon common sense and what's been said on the matter on paizo's forums, I've come to the conclusion that you do, in fact, get Improved/Greater Bull Rush's bonuses on Shield Slam.


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## Pandemonic (Jul 15, 2011)

Don't take this as an attack on your build, but... could you explain the what the draw is to dual shields? You're not the first person I've seen to try it and I picture a guy with 2 shields and it just seems like a ridiculous concept to me. Or is this purely an optimization type of thing?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 15, 2011)

There's a draw, and it's optimized.  I played a bodyguard character with two shields previously, and he was really fun even though mechanically weak and spread thin between multiclassing and multiple ability dependency.  Of course, that was using the whole of 3E splat material, so he had half a dozen things to use the second shield for, like blocking attacks on allies or providing it's AC bonus to them for a round.  So, out of nostalgia I kinda want to do another dual shield guy.  Plus I like the mental image of a big dude in armor with two massive wickedly pointy shields.

For the optimizing part...  For starters, having two of the same weapon makes feats like Weapon Focus and such go further, it's why a TWF build is just as likely to be two shortswords as it is longsword + shortsword.  With Shield Slam, I get a free bull rush every attack with a shield, so it's tactically useful to get more chances to do that per round.  Finally, the biggest reason it's optimized is the absolutely amazing Shield Master feat.  No penalties to attack with a shield means your "main hand" shield is at least getting a +2 to hit over any non-shield weapon for TWF (in the case of wanting a heavy shield in the off-hand, a +4 difference).  Not only that, but now defensive enhancements count for offensive enhancement, so each +1 you imbue in it is paying extra dividends.  And considering how freaking expensive keeping two weapons upgraded is, that's really helpful.  Sure, you only get the AC boost from one, but if nothing else, AC bonuses cost half, so you're still getting two +5 weapons and a +5 AC for 50,000 gp (to be fair, you're going to at least be paying another 22,000 for Bashing on each) ultimately.  And with Bashing and spiked on a heavy shield, it's doing a respectable 2d6 medium base damage, though only a 20/x2 crit.

To be honest, if and when a Ranger hits 10 and gets Bashing Finish (free shield bash on a crit), it may very well be more optimal to main hand a heavy shield and offhand a kukri with either Improved Critical or Keen.  But I'd still rather just use my two shields even then. 

Is having two shields really that outlandish in real life?


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## Pandemonic (Jul 15, 2011)

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I see your point in the mechanics aspect, it seems really effective. It still kinda seems outlandish to me though, mechanics aside, but I can kinda see it with wicked spikes being a cool concept. I'm just trying to put myself in character and think what would lead them to choose that style of combat rather than the 'normal' options.


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## AeroDm (Jul 15, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Is having two shields really that outlandish in real life?




I can see the draw. It has a certain image to it that I can imagine lots of folks appreciating. I also imagine it is damn rare in real life. A big shield was heavy and wasn't maneuvered with any where near the precision, speed, or extent of a sword. You'd be exhausted.


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## Dingo333 (Jul 15, 2011)

First, Not trying to rain on your parade cause I like the idea.

Second, it kinda is so outlandish irl. Think how many times you have seen someone clobbered with 2 shield? in movies? in shows?

Only time I can think of anyone using 2 shields in a show I watched was when Samurai Jack used 2 Shields to defend himself as he ran down a corridor filled with arrow/dart traps

Now the rain storm:
First, if you use a heavy shield as your off hand attack, the penalty is same for using a 1 handed weapon as your off hand (-4)

Second, 2 +5 bashing shields would cost 72K not 50k

Third, the +5 only affects shield bonus, bashing says, they only get +1. Or more precisely, acts as a +1 weapon

Now, where I want to help

1st level ranger spell: Lead blades. Light spiked bashing shields will do 2d6 each and heavy will do 3d6
2nd level ranger spell: Aspect of the Bear. +2 Nat Armor, +2 CMB (not really needed) no attacks provoked when bull rushing, grappling and overrunning (again not needed, but +2 nat ac is always welcome)
4th level ranger spell: Aspect of the Wolf. +4 to Dex and Str, +2 to Trip, swift action trip attempt (this is more just a fun aspect, bonus STR and DEX means more damage and harder to hit usually)

Feats
1 WF shield
2 Improved Shield Bash
3 Shield Focus
5 Shield Slam
6 Shield Master
7 Double Slice
9 Improved Critical Shield
10 Bashing Finish

At this point, I would stop gaining ranger levels and look into Druid. Specifically Pack Lord archtype
your feats will pretty much be Boon Companion(11, 13, 15, 17 and 19), gain a Velociraptor each time (till you have 5 off druid levels)

you gain spell casting, and really nice spells too and lots of animal companions to flank with. your ranger companion I would recommend a Megaloceros (megafauna, Elk ride-able and nasty to fight)


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 15, 2011)

Dingo333 said:


> Second, it kinda is so outlandish irl. Think how many times you have seen someone clobbered with 2 shield? in movies? in shows?
> 
> Only time I can think of anyone using 2 shields in a show I watched was when Samurai Jack used 2 Shields to defend himself as he ran down a corridor filled with arrow/dart traps




Part of what I like about the concept of two shields IS the rarity of it.  It feels like I'm really playing a fighting style that's "different" than anything that came before.  And frankly, I don't see why it's any more ridiculous than a spiked chain.



Dingo333 said:


> Now the rain storm:
> First, if you use a heavy shield as your off hand attack, the penalty is same for using a 1 handed weapon as your off hand (-4)




Please read the Shield Master feat (which Ranger gets at level 6, which...is the main reason I'm using Ranger for the build to begin with).  It is entirely possibly that I go heavy + light shield or even sword and board before level 6 while I don't have the benefit of that feat, of course.  That's why the goal is to have the two heavy shields ready to go by level 6.



Dingo333 said:


> Second, 2 +5 bashing shields would cost 72K not 50k




I did say in my second post: "to be fair, you're going to at least be paying another 22,000 for Bashing on each."  So I did acknowledge that.



Dingo333 said:


> Third, the +5 only affects shield bonus, bashing says, they only get +1. Or more precisely, acts as a +1 weapon




Again, please read the Shield Master feat.  It makes the defensive enhancement apply offensively.




Dingo333 said:


> Now, where I want to help
> 
> 1st level ranger spell: Lead blades. Light spiked bashing shields will do 2d6 each and heavy will do 3d6
> 2nd level ranger spell: Aspect of the Bear. +2 Nat Armor, +2 CMB (not really needed) no attacks provoked when bull rushing, grappling and overrunning (again not needed, but +2 nat ac is always welcome)
> ...




Thanks for the build advice, though yours has none of the TWF feats in it at all.  And you can't take Shield Slam at level 5, it requires BAB +6.  You can take it as a bonus feat at Ranger 2 and ignore the pre-reqs, however, which is what I plan to do.  I figured my feats would look like this:

1 Imp Shield Bash
2 Shield Slam
3 TWF
5 Weapon Focus (Heavy Shield)
6 Shield Master
7 Improved TWF
9 Improved Critical (Heavy Shield)
10 Bashing Finish


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## spiderdmann (Aug 2, 2011)

Explain how you have the required +11 BAB at level 6 in order to take the Shield Mastery feat.

I'm very interested in a build similar to this.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 2, 2011)

The Weapon and Shield Fighter (new combat style found in APG and also included in the Ranger entry on d20pfsrd.org) adds Shield Master to its list of bonus feats at level 6. Rangers do NOT need to meet the pre-requisites for their bonus feats, unlike Fighters.

That's it, basically.  Archery and Crossbow (which is almost identical to archery, ultimately...) has a similar sweet deal with Improved Precise Shot at level 6.  Mounted combat style lets you take Trick Riding (normally requires level 9+ !) at level 2 and Mounted Skirmisher (normally requires level 14+) at level 10.  Therefore, I find them to be the best combat styles for a ranger.  TWF, two handed, and natural weapon all fail to offer such early entry options, making them subpar, IMO.

"At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two (seven, if styles from Advanced Player's Guide are allowed) combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat (Note: Advanced Player's Guide adds 5 new combat style options: crossbow, mounted combat, natural weapon, two-handed weapon, and weapon and shield).


The ranger's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. *He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.*

The benefits of the ranger's chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style feats when wearing heavy armor. Once a ranger selects a combat style, it cannot be changed."


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## spiderdmann (Aug 2, 2011)

Totally doing this then, I think I might multiclass to fighter for more crazy shield feats and heavy armor after ranger 6


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 2, 2011)

Yeah, it's hard to justify staying in past 6.  Bashing Finish is alright...but you can acquire it on your own merits at level 11 on your own if you want to anyway.  I'm not sure what the best multiclass is, though.  Probably either Fighter, Vivivisectionist Alchemist (trades bombs for sneak attack so you have a bonus damage source for your TWF; I think it's better for the build than rogue would be), Cleric (domains are powerful!), Inquisitor (it'd be the most similar thing to multi into and has wisdom synergy), or Oracle (certain mysteries can be handy).


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 2, 2011)

Actually, depending on campaign*, I think I like the idea of doing Guide (archetype from APG) Ranger 6 into Horizon Walker.  Guide doesn't trample on your combat feats and gives you useful abilities to replace the animal companion and favored enemy that would be crippled by your low ranger level.  And meshes eerily perfectly with HW, which you conveniently need exactly 6 levels to qualify for.  HW can give you some unique abilities uncommon for melee characters, and if you fight in pretty much the same terrain most of the game (like a giant dungeon crawl or a module set on the Abyss, etc...) you can potentially end up with something like +18 attack/damage against every enemy from that terrain by HW 10.

*Despite how it appears, HW's usefulness is actually directly proportional to how _little_ the DM varies his landscapes.  If you're always fighting in a totally different locale week after week, HW actually really sucks.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 17, 2011)

Update: Brawler archetype from UC gives an awesome +1 attack / +3 damage with all close weapons at level 3, and +1 bull rush and a few other maneuvers at 2.  It's perfect for this build!  Sample level 9 optimized build with 25 point buy:

[sblock]Oread Guide Ranger 6 / Brawler Fighter 3
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 5 (25 point buy)
Str 20 (22), Dex 16 (18), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 5 (final)
HP: (9d10 +18 +6 favored class)
AC: 28 (10 +8 armor +3 dex +4 shield +1 deflect +1 natural +1 insight)
Saves:  Fortitude +11, Reflex +11, Will +6
BAB +9/+4; CMB +15 (+20 bull rush), CMD 31 (36 bull rush)

Full Attack
Shield +21/+16 (2d6 +13, 20/x2, P) and Shield +21/+16 (2d6 +10, 20/x2, P)
Special: Bull rush on each hit, using attack roll +5 for the maneuver check

Feats:
1 Imp Shield Bash
2 Shield Slam
3 TWF
5 Weapon Focus (Heavy Shield)
6 Shield Master
7 Improved TWF
7 Power Attack [Fighter]
8 Improved Bull Rush
9 Greater Bull Rush

Gear (46000 gp):
+2 Bashing spiked heavy shield
+2 Bashing spiked heavy shield
+2 Breastplate or Kikko Armor
Gloves of Dueling
Strength +2
Dexterity +2
Ring of Protect +1
Natural Armor +1
Dusty Rose Iuon Stone
Cloak of Resistance +1[/sblock]

Ideal final armor would be mithral full plate, O-Yoroi, or Tatami-do, just too expensive at level 9 to be practical, IMO.  Note that it can use Guide Ranger's Focus ability 2/day for +4 attack and damage, also.

I rather like this concept, shame there's no decent PF feat to apply shield bonus to touch AC or lend an ally your shield's AC bonus yet.

EDIT: Forgot Shield Master completely negates the TWF penalties.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 24, 2011)

Also, I think this video is relevant to the thread.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OydCKdKlbM&feature=relmfu]Dorkly Bits: Link Didn't Get Sword - YouTube[/ame]

Just think how deadly TWO smashing boards can be!


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## Viashimo (Oct 4, 2011)

I like this build, awesome idea & execution.


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## blackbloodtroll (Oct 4, 2011)

A heavy shield is a one-handed weapon, which means it can wielded with two hands. 1.5 times strength is a good thing. Consider it.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 4, 2011)

That's actually how my level 9 sample build operates.  It's a build that "evolves."  At level 1, he either does the typical sword and board w/o TWF, or more likely two hands a single heavy shield and people scoff at him for being mad.  Then level 2 hits and suddenly hes hitting and running, hurting and smashing back people, and all of a sudden his fighting style doesn't seem so crazy anymore.  3rd level, he's mastered his shield-fu enough to use two at once.  And so forth.

You could definitely build this to just two-hand a single shield, might even be better since TWF is such an underpowered fighting style.  But the shield master feat's no penalties benefit kinda goes to waste then, a lot of good shield feats seem to require TWF feat anyway (granted, you're getting the two best ones w/o pre-reqs), and ultimately...I just wanted MOAR bull rushing.   Build's more for pushing people around than sheer damage potential.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 4, 2012)

Apparently a RL martial art that uses dual shields!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs]Hasayfu Hung Kuen - Double Tiger-Head Steel Shields Sample - YouTube[/ame]


EDIT: And some feats of interest:

Spiked Destroyer: Swift action armor spike attack when you bull rush someone.  Nice with Brawler's close weapons bonuses.

Merciless Rush: Have to worship some CE deity and it basically just lets you move through the foe's square instead of moving him.  Since you can move with him already, seems of limited use.  But, you need it for...

Squash Flat: Trade 5 ft of bull rush movement for making the victim prone.  Good trade!


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## Loonook (Feb 4, 2012)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Apparently a RL martial art that uses dual shields!
> 
> . . .
> 
> ...




I have to laugh because I was about to post that same youtube video .

This is actually a fantastic idea for a brawler-in-armor sort of fighter, and the idea of heavy shields is great.  I just see a knight in full armor with what appear to be Hulk Hand shields .

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Tayne (Feb 7, 2012)

He should DEFINITELY refer to his shields as "smashing boards." I like the idea of NPC's reacting to him with confusion or laughter before getting smash-boarded.

He might also be considered unarmed in situations where people insist on leaving weapons at the door and don't know any better.


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## SteelDraco (Feb 8, 2012)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> EDIT: And some feats of interest:
> 
> Spiked Destroyer: Swift action armor spike attack when you bull rush someone.  Nice with Brawler's close weapons bonuses.
> 
> ...




Where are these feats from?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 8, 2012)

Spiked Destroyer (Combat) - Pathfinder_OGC

Merciless Rush - Pathfinder_OGC

Squash Flat - Pathfinder_OGC

Spiked Destroyer is from "Faiths of Balance" and the other 2 are from "Faiths of Corruption."  Cause if 3E taught us anything, it's the religious folks that know how to kick ass in melee?


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## SteelDraco (Feb 8, 2012)

Ah, that's why I hadn't seen them. We don't use any of the Golarion-specific books.


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## Systole (Apr 3, 2012)

[MENTION=35909]StreamOfTheSky[/MENTION]

I wanted to bump this because I'm thinking of making something similar for LPF. Before I got there, I have two questions ...

1. Shield spikes with the Bashing enchantment. It was my understanding that armor/shield spikes were treated as weapons and needed to be enchanted separately. Therefore, they wouldn't be subject to the bashing enchantment. In other words, do you need an _unspiked_ shield for the bashing enchantment?

2. You went for the Guide archetype. Any reason not to throw Skirmisher on there? You trade a couple of 1st level spells (and the ability to use a wand of CLW) for 6/day of a couple of cool abilities -- Upending Strike and Rattling Strike are both neat abilities that stay relevant through 20th. Plus, you can dump Wisdom without feeling too bad, except for the whole thing where your Will save sucks.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 4, 2012)

My understanding is you can enhance the shield as both a shield/armor and as a shield/weapon.  If you get shield spikes, it isn't clearly stated, but I've always assumed the spikes (which are still part of the shield, not technically their own "item") recieve any of the weapon enhancements and it overrides shield stats to be a piercing weapon that you can still bash with.  So, you could apply the keen enhancement to a spiked shield, for instance.
Bashing is strange, it's an AC enhancement that boosts weapon properties.  Since the spikes are still part of the shield, and ANY shield can already be dual-enhanced, I see no reason why bashing would not stack with spikes, and the rules certainly say nothing to prevent it.  RAW of course, you could not use the effective +1 from bashing, you would have to actually pay 2000 to give it a +1 weapon enhancement before advancing it further as a weapon.  But it certainly is confusing.

Skirmisher...I write it and trapper off generally, because the abilities are so weak.  And even w/ only CL 3 and like 2 1st level spells...spellcasting is useful.  That said, Upending Strike would be pretty helpful.  Rattling Strike is so inferior to numerous other abilities (Enforcer if doing nonlethal, Cornugon Smash, later on Dreadful Carnage) that I wouldn't bother with it...  If the DM allowed demoralize from intimidate to stack with it (RAW it stacks with nothing, iirc), it'd become much more valuable.
Skirmisher might be useful, though.  I still wouldn't dump wisdom...for one thing, Horizon Walker is one of the nice options to dive into after Ranger.  And your tricks are still wis-based for times per day.  Maybe keep wis at a 12, but not a true dump...

EDIT: Surprise Shift is terribad compared to 3E items (which do it for low cost), but in PF-only extra 5 ft steps is worth a feat.  Skill Sage might be useful, but can't see Ranger using any of the really powerful skills with it, other than Perception.


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## Systole (Apr 4, 2012)

Okay, here's everything I can find on shields and spiked shields.

[sblock=Item descriptions]
Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel 

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right. 


Spiked Shield, Heavy or Light 

Shield Bash Attacks
You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.
For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and treat a light shield as a light weapon. 


Shield Spikes 
Benefit: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack. 
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right. [/sblock]

[sblock=Feat/Enchantment]
Shield Master (Combat)

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.


Bashing

Description A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash.
Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.[/sblock]

I'm a little troubled by the "Spiked Shield" entry, given that it claims 'off-hand only.' But at the same time it says a spiked shield is a bludgeoning weapon. I'm tempted to just call it wrong and move on.

Rereading carefully, I'm thinking your original interpretation is correct. "A spiked shield _*can be*_ made into a magic weapon in its own right," BUT "A bashing shield deals damage *as if it were* a weapon of two size categories larger." So a spiked shield is still a shield, and it does not need to qualify as a weapon in order for Bashing to affect it.



By the way, meet Spike.

I don't know if I'm going to dual-shield, but she's definitely going to be shield-centric. I'll decide in a few levels. I also figured that Wis shouldn't be a full-on dumpstat.

EDIT: I know you're "anything but humans," but my problem is that my characters keep ending up as elves.


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## Squire James (Apr 5, 2012)

As the rules are worded, the "two spiked shield build" might work.  As a DM, I'd not let the Bashing enchantment stack with the spikes, mostly because I'm a little leery of "size bonuses" stacking in general.  The rest of it is no problem, and would be a pretty good build, and the spikes would still be good if you needed a piercing weapon for some reason (yeah, Mr. Rakshasa, I'm looking at you).


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 6, 2012)

Eh, the two size increases together allow you, at some cost in enhancement bonus, to get a 2d6 one handed weapon with a 20/x2 crit and no other special properties like trip or disarm.  It's not that bad.

Systole: You should fix the link.

I don't know where it was said off-hand, but I know ofr certain that the designers explicitly stated that you do not need to use a shield as an off-hand weapon, and the rules were merely written assuming that as the norm.  I could try to find it, perhaps, but the paizo boards...ugh....

Your character's got an interesting look.  Reading about her, made me wonder when she goes to the bathroom. She is still a human.    Any reason for the parade armor?

Archetypes: Not sure where you plan to go with her, but a paizo forum member recently pointed out to me that with the Instant Enemy spel (use a wand)l, a Horizon Walker can designate a creature as his favored enemy *for all purposes*.  Including native terrain.  Which, if you plan ahead at all, will match the terrain you have dominance in..  Just an idea, but you would then obviously not want either archetype (guide removes the FE you need to use the combo; skirmisher removes the ability to use the wand).

Feats seem fine.  Are you satisfied with the traits?  PF has some very nice ones.  And yeah, I prefer not being human.  Certainly ranger is a bit MAD, so having two stats boosted helps, unfortunately it's impossible to boost str and dex (how I miss you, 3E Wood Elf).


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## Systole (Apr 6, 2012)

Ugh, Enworld loves to cut off that final parenthesis.  I don't know why.

I also thought about the bathroom issue, but then I filed it under MST3K Mantra.  I had two reasons for choosing parade armor: (1) I wanted a spiky-armored kind of look with a face concealing helmet, and (2) I hate 20' speed.  A lot.  So out of the light armors, parade armor most matched the look I had in my mind without cutting speed.  In other words: RP decision.  Same deal with the traits.

Eventually, mithril and stuff, of course.

At the moment, I'm actually leaning shield/kukri, so I'm not sure if she'll finish with the Brawler archetype or no.  I'm very certain she won't go HW, because my differently sane elf barbarian is going to take that for rage-hopping.


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## Grimgrin (Apr 9, 2012)

Have you seen this feat?

Two Shield Fighting

As to race:

I agree the dwarf seem to have the mindset for using two heavy shields in combat.

In "Plot & Poison" by Green Ronin.  Dual Shield fighting style called "Mithral Carapace" is an option available to drow.  

Human Gladiators might also employ these weapons since it is unique and unusual fighting style.

Historic Authenticity

I only know of examples of paired "bladed bucklers" (like the Lantern Shield and madu).

Some armies worked in teams with a shield bearer and a pike man or crossbowman.    

Some soldiers used a shield bash as a primary attack followed by a secondary strike from a spear or short sword (gladius)


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## milo (Apr 9, 2012)

Grimgrin said:


> Have you seen this feat?
> 
> Two Shield Fighting




I wonder if this works with Shield Focus?  Looking at both of them they look like they would work.  Two large +1 shields would give you a +8 to AC.  The more I read this thread the more I want to do this, I like to play defense minded characters.


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## milo (Apr 9, 2012)

Also I was wondering about even picking up TWF, if you get Shield Master as a Ranger feat you don't need to meet the pre reqs.  Shield master lets you fight with two shields at no penalty.  The only reason I can see picking up TWF is to get double slice. From my personal experience ITWF and GTWF just lead to more misses in a round not normally more hits(six attacks with 2 hits isn't any better than 4 attacks with 2 hits).

EDIT:
Two shield fighting feat from above also needs TWF.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 9, 2012)

Hadn't seen two shield fighting before.  That's a pretty sweet 3rd party feat, if you can get it allowed.

And that's a good point, milo.  If you don't mind not using two shields till 6th level, you could actually skip out on TWF to ease the initial feat burden.  It is eventually useful as a pre-req for the other TWF feats and double slice, though, as you said.  I think around the time you can get GTWF, ITWF has a fair chance of hitting.  Maybe hold off on TWF and ITWF until about then.


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## Systole (Apr 9, 2012)

RAW, Shield Focus stacks with Two Shield Fighting, since Shield Focus adds to the shield bonus of a shield, and Two Shield Fighting allows for both shield bonuses to be in effect.

You just gotta be a little careful, as Two Shield Fighting is a 3rd party feat.  Not that Paizo itself hasn't put out some pretty retarded stuff, but you should be extra careful around non-official splats.


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## Gorgoroth (Apr 14, 2012)

*that video*

guy has sucky looking shields. I can picture waaaay cooler stuff. 

First off, the 4th edition "Gauntlet Axe" from Dark Sun. Imagine your shields as being sort of like battle axes, protruding from your bracers/armguards. As a double-half-moon design, it would look a lot like a round-ish shield on each forearm, even to the extent of having a spike at the tip where the central shaft ends (pointing forward, from your wrists). It would look cool, AND be very axe-like. Since there is virtually no distinction between bludgeoning and slashing damage in pathfinder (AFAIK), why the heck not, just call your shields battle axes in each "hand" and call it a day. Even better, since you can't drop them (although if you let your hand go on your heavy shield to grab onto a rope, say, if you're about to fall off a cliff, not sure how that'd work). 

No-penalty TWF, pretty cool idea actually. 

I'd be very interested in way that one could combine the mundate "throwing shield" property, with a magical "returning" for when you need that ranged attack. (surprise! whack). Screams Capn America a little loudly, though.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 14, 2012)

Sounds cool.  I definitely would be open to more kinds of shields if your DM / rules allow.  Bladed shields (sharp on the edges and/or with strips of razor-like blades running down the front of it) would be awesome.

Not sure a throwing returning shield screaming Cap. is a bad thing, but plenty of other ways to describe it.  It's a mobile suit (giant piloted robot, basically), but could just model your shield and how its ranged attack works after Deathscythe's.  Two pincer-like blades, it magically shoots off your arm in a spinning motion straight into the enemy.

Gundam Wing Tribute Deathscythe - YouTube

(only like those first 4 sec. from that mark are relevant)

Pretty sure that still looks like piercing damage. And messy if used on something made of flesh...


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