# [Bo9S] Archery schools



## hong (Apr 15, 2007)

I said to Nifft that I was working up a couple of schools for archery/missileers, so here they are. Diamond Arrow is for snipers; Celestial Rain is for machine-gun archers.


EDIT: updated drafts are now at

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/diamond_arrow.htm
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/celestial_rain.htm


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*Diamond Arrow*

The Diamond Arrow discipline is a little-known offshoot of the Diamond Mind school focusing on the bow and crossbow. The two schools share a similar meditative outlook, although their practical teachings are very different.

The Diamond Arrow discipline concentrates on harnessing the flow of one's life force to achieve complete control over oneself -- and since the bow is an extension of the self, this control enables masters of the school to take down even the mightiest of foes with but a single well-placed arrow. But such feats are secondary to the purpose of the school, which is introspective in nature: its deepest teachings emphasise that perfecting one's skill is simply a metaphor for the journey towards enlightenment.

The discipline's save DCs are modified by Wisdom, and its key skill is Concentration, as with Diamond Mind. Its favored weapons are the longbow, composite longbow, light crossbow and heavy crossbow. All of this school's strikes normally take a full-round action to complete.


*1st level*

*darkwood arrow stance:* stance -- all Diamond Arrow strikes deal x2 damage, you lose Dex bonus to AC
*unbending arrow:* strike -- +2d6 damage
*keen sense of the archer:* boost -- negate cover bonus to AC, reroll concealment miss chance
*blindfire strike:* boost -- gain reroll on missed ranged attack within 1 rd


*2nd level*

*emerald initiate's attack:* strike -- +5 damage
*hammerblow shot:* strike -- ranged bull rush
*pierce the shadows:* boost -- +20 insight bonus to next ranged attack, ignore concealment miss chance
*refuge in truth:* counter -- +4 AC, 50% concealment vs ranged attacks for 1 rd


*3rd level*

*confound the blade:* strike -- ranged disarm
*sapphire spirit shot:* strike -- +10 damage
*eye of the archon:* boost -- Conc vs Sense Motive check to deny Dex bonus to AC
*shot of perfection:* strike -- line attack, 60' range


*4th level*

*iron arrow stance:* stance -- all Diamond Arrow strikes deal x2 damage, req std action, you do not lose Dex bonus to AC
*striking the heart:* strike -- auto-threat
*unveiling light of truth:* strike -- no damage, dispel all illusions on target
*distant touch of fate:* boost -- negate up to -10 of range penalty


*5th level*

*ruby spirit shot:* strike -- +20 damage
*shot of reversal:* strike -- target reduced to 0 spd for 1 rd, Fort reduce to 1/2 spd
*golem-smashing shot:* boost -- Conc vs Sense Motive to bypass DR, hardness with strike
*transcendent mind:* counter -- immune to mind-affecting effects for 1 rd


*6th level*

*smite the mountain:* boost -- Conc vs Sense Motive to make strike as touch attack
*diamond surge:* strike -- +5d6 damage, target staggered 1d4 rds, Will half
*fog-dispelling shot:* strike -- no damage, dispel all mind-affecting effects on target


*7th level*

*diamond spirit shot:* strike -- +40 damage
*ghost-cleaving shot:* strike -- +5d6 damage, attack ethereal, incorporeal targets
*perception beyond sight:* boost -- blindsense 120', blindsight 30' for 1 rd


*8th level*

*mithral arrow stance:* stance -- all Diamond Arrow strikes deal x3 damage, reroll concealment, you lose Dex bonus to AC
*shot of confronting doom:* strike -- +10d6 damage, target paralyzed 1 rd, Will negates
*transcendent gaze:* boost -- true seeing for 1 rd
*unstoppable solar's bolt:* strike -- line attack, 120' range


*9th level*

*shot of destiny inevitable:* strike -- +50 damage, +2d4 Dex damage, Fort half



*Celestial Rain*

The Celestial Rain discipline teaches complete mastery of the bow as a deadly weapon. Speed is the key to archery, just as it is with melee combat; when an adept achieves mastery of this discipline, he becomes a veritable whirlwind of destruction, loosing arrows at a rate that no lesser warrior could seek to match. The outlook of Celestial Rain is relatively pragmatic, compared to other schools of the Sublime Way. Its practitioners tend to be rivals to those of the Diamond Arrow school, which takes a more mystical approach; this rivalry can be friendly or otherwise.

The discipline's save DCs are modified by Dexterity, and its key skill is Spot. Its favored weapons are the longbow, composite longbow, shortbow and composite shortbow.


*1st level*

*agile archer's stance:* stance -- +10 AC vs AoO due to ranged attack
*fast dance of fire:* strike -- 2 attacks with std action at -2
*the weakest link:* boost -- Spot check vs AC to negate up to 2 points armor/nat armor bonus to AC


*2nd level*

*rhythm of air:* strike -- 3 attacks with FRA at -4
*field of quills:* strike -- create difficult terrain, 4 5' squares, uses 1d6 arrows/square
*hidden thorn attack:* boost -- extra attack at -2
*mighty arrows:* boost -- +1d6 damage per shot within 30'


*3rd level*

*indomitable archer's stance:* stance -- generate ammunition magically, considered nonmagical, up to 5 missiles/rd
*unfurling steel blossom:* strike -- area attack, 10' radius burst
*crimson arrow onslaught:* strike -- area attack, 30' cone, 1 shot per target
*avoidance of nemesis:* counter -- force opponent to reroll ranged attack, at -4 penalty


*4th level*

*celeritous volley:* strike -- make full ranged attack with standard action
*manticore attack:* strike -- 2 shots on each of 3 targets within 60' cone
*unrelenting aim:* boost -- Spot check vs AC to deny Dex bonus to AC
*giant-felling volley:* strike -- make full ranged attack; if all hit, 1 Str penalty/shot for 4 rds, Fort negates


*5th level*

*perfected archer's stance:* stance -- treat bow/crossbow as 10' reach weapon for AoOs, threatening
*rebuke of the heavens:* strike -- make full ranged attack; if all hit, knock target prone, Ref negates
*jade arrow flare:* boost -- 2 extra attacks at -0, -5
*pierce the carapace:* boost -- Spot check vs AC to negate up to 5 points armor/nat armor bonus to AC


*6th level*

*breath of the celestial dragon:* strike -- area attack, 60' cone, 1 shot per target
*wrath of the earth dragon:* strike -- create difficult terrain, 1 5' square/lvl, uses 1 arrow/square, explodes for 10d6
*reaving arrows:* boost -- +2d6 damage per shot within 60'


*7th level*

*tempest of thorns:* strike -- beaten zone, 20' radius burst, attack anyone who enters or is in the area
*greater manticore attack:* strike -- 3 shots on each of 4 targets within 120' cone
*arc of furious thunder:* boost -- ranged Power Attack for 1 rd, max -IL atk/+IL dmg within 30'


*8th level*

*unquenchable fire stance:* stance -- generate ammunition magically, +1d6 fire damage
*unfurling heavenly blossom:* strike -- area attack, 30' radius burst, x2 damage per target
*adamantine arrow flare:* boost -- 3 extra attacks at -0, -5, -10, you are fatigued for rest of encounter
*superb rending volley:* strike -- make full ranged attack; if all hit, 2 Str damage/shot, Fort half


*9th level*

*tears of heaven:* strike -- 2 full attacks as full-round action, you are dazed next round, fatigued for rest of encounter


Full descriptions to follow.


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## JiCi (Apr 15, 2007)

Hmmm... interesting.

For _adamantine arrow flare_ and _tears of heavens_, they look like Raging Mangoose and Time Stands Still, respectively. I suggest to remove the fatigued condition. Since both disciplines use projectile weapons, the fact that you shoot LOTS of arrows/bolts should be their main weakness, as if you run out of ammo... you're screwed.

On a side note, which class can access these maneuvers ? Swordsages and warblades aren't even proficient with the bow or the crossbow... only the crusader.


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## hong (Apr 15, 2007)

Full maneuver writeups. For simplicity, all maneuvers have prerequisite #maneuvers = 1/2 maneuver level. Eg to learn an 8th level Diamond Arrow maneuver, you must already know 4 other Diamond Arrow maneuvers.

All Diamond Arrow strikes require a full-round action to complete.


*Diamond Arrow*


*1st level*

*Darkwood arrow stance*
stance

You empty your mind of distractions and concentration on the task at hand. Your arrows fly straight and true to their target.

All Diamond Arrow strikes that you perform while in this stance deal double damage. As per the usual rules for multiplying damage, flat bonuses are multiplied but bonus dice are not. While in this stance, you lose your Dex bonus to AC.


*Unbending arrow*
strike

You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +2d6 points of damage.


*Keen sense of the archer*
boost

Choose a target. You can ignore its cover bonus to AC if any, and reroll any concealment miss chance that may apply.


*Blindfire strike*
boost

If a ranged attack of yours misses, you can reroll the attack. You gain this benefit only on one ranged attack, which must be made before the start of your next turn.



*2nd level*

*emerald initiate's attack*
strike

You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +5 points of damage. Note that this is multiplied if you are in any of the Diamond Arrow stances.


*Hammerblow shot*
strike

You make a single powerful shot that sends your foe reeling.

You make a bull rush attempt on an enemy that you hit with a ranged attack. You use the higher of your Wisdom and Strength scores on the oppposed roll, and you gain an additional +4 bonus to the roll.


*Pierce the shadows*
boost

You gain a +20 insight bonus to your next ranged attack, ignore concealment miss chance. You must make the attack before the start of your next turn to gain this benefit.


*Refuge in truth*
counter

You gain a +4 insight bonus to AC and a 50% concealment miss chance against ranged attacks for 1 round.



*3rd level*

*Confound the blade*
strike

Your precisely-aimed shot sends your foe's weapon flying.

You can make a disarm attempt on an enemy at range. This follows the normal rules for disarming, but you use your ranged attack roll instead of a melee attack roll. You gain the +4 bonus for using a 2-handed weapon.


*Sapphire spirit shot*
strike

You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +10 points of damage.


*Eye of the archon*
boost

You reach out with your mind, confounding your foe's attempts to dodge your aim.

Make a Concentration check, opposed by your target's Sense Motive check. If you win, your target loses their Dex bonus to AC against your next attack, if it is made before the start of your next turn.


*Shot of perfection*
strike

With a single arrow, you cut a swathe through your enemies.

You attack all creatures in a 60' line starting from your square. Make a single ranged attack roll, which is then applied to all your targets.



*4th level*

*Iron arrow stance*
stance

With but a minimum of effort, you send your arrows into the hearts of your enemies.

While in this stance, all Diamond Arrow strikes deal double damage, and require only a standard action to complete (instead of a full-round action). You do not lose your Dex bonus to AC.


*Striking the heart*
strike

Your shot strikes with deadly precision. Make an attack roll; if you hit, your attack is automatically considered a critical threat.


*Unveiling light of truth*
strike

Your mastery of the Sublime Way enables you to pierce the veils of illusion that surround your foe.

Make a ranged touch attack. If you hit, you deal no damage; instead, you make a dispel check against all illusion effects active on your target. Use your initiator level for this check (maximum +20). Your arrow is still consumed in the attack as normal.


*Distant touch of fate*
boost

You raise your bow to the heavens and fire, trusting in fate to bring your arrow down on your enemy.

You can negate up to -10 points of penalty due to range on your next attack roll, if it is made before the start of your next turn. You do not gain an actual bonus to your attack.



*5th level*

*Ruby spirit shot*
strike

You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +20 points of damage.


*Shot of reversal*
strike

You reverse the ki flow within your target, forcing it to a halt.

Make a single ranged attack. If you hit, your target is reduced to 0 speed for 1 rd. A successful Fortitude save (DC 15 + Wis mod) means it is reduced to half speed (minimum 5') instead.


*Golem-smashing shot*
boost

You can sense the critical weak points in a foe.

Make a Concentration check, opposed by your target's Sense Motive check. If you succeed, your next Diamond Arrow strike ignores its DR and hardness, if any. You must make your attack before the start of your next turn to gain this benefit.


*Transcendent mind*
counter

Your devotion to truth and enlightenment turns away those who would influence your mind.

You gain immunity to all mind-affecting effects for 1 round.



*6th level*

*Smite the mountain*
boost

Armour and scaly hide is no barrier to you. You reach out with your mind, finding the weak points in your foe's protection.

Make a Concentration check opposed by your target's Sense Motive check. If you succeed, your next Diamond Arrow strike can be made as a ranged touch attack. YOu must make your attack before the start of your next turn to gain this benefit.


*Diamond surge*
strike

Make a single ranged attack. If you hit, you gain a bonus +5d6 points of damage, and your target is staggered 1d4 rounds. A successful Will save (DC 16 + Wis mod) halves the duration, but not the bonus damage.


*Fog-dispelling shot*
strike

Make a ranged touch attack. If you hit, you deal no damage; instead, you make a dispel check against all mind-affecting effects active on your target. Use your initiator level for this check (maximum +20). Your arrow is still consumed in the attack as normal.



*7th level*

*Diamond spirit shot*
strike

You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +40 points of damage.


*Ghost-cleaving shot*
strike

The wraith shrieks with rage and pain as your arrow tears into its ghostly form, leaving fragments in its wake.

You make a single ranged attack, which is considered a force effect (ie, it has the ability to hit and damage an ethereal or incorporeal target). If you hit, you gain a bonus +5d6 points of damage. Note that you gain no special ability to detect such foes.


*Perception beyond sight*
boost

You gain blindsense 120' and blindsight 30' for 1 round.



*8th level*

*Mithral arrow stance*
stance

All Diamond Arrow strikes deal triple damage, and you may reroll any miss chances due to concealment. You lose your Dex bonus to AC while in this stance.


*Shot of confronting doom*
strike

You make a single ranged attack. If you hit, you gain a bonus +10d6 points of damage, and your target is paralyzed for 1 round. A successful Will save (DC 18 + Wis mod) negates the paralyzation but not the bonus damage.


*Transcendent gaze*
boost

You gain the benefit of true seeing for 1 round.


*Unstoppable solar's bolt*
strike

Your arrow transforms into a mighty bolt of geomantic energy, clearing a path through your enemies.

You attack all creatures in a 120' line starting from your square. Make a single ranged attack roll, which is applied to all your targets.



*9th level*

*Shot of destiny inevitable*
strike

You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +50 points of damage. In addition, if you hit, your foe takes 2d4 points of Dexterity damage. A successful Fortitude save (DC 19 + Wis mod) halves the Dex damage, but not the hit point damage. If you score a critical hit, the Dex damage becomes permanent ability drain.


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## Nifft (Apr 15, 2007)

Cool! I'll comment when I see the longer descriptions. I like many of the ideas -- the ones I don't immediately like will hopefully be cleared up. 

May I request capitalization on the names?

Thanks, -- N

EDIT: And hey, while I was writing this, the write-ups appeared!


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## hong (Apr 15, 2007)

Celestial Rain writeups. Prereqs are as for Diamond Arrow.


*Celestial Rain*

*1st level*

*Agile archer's stance*
stance

You shoot your foes from point-blank range, avoiding the clumsy blows they attempt to land on you.

While in this stance, you gain a +10 dodge bonus to AC for AoOs provoked by your ranged attacks.


*Fast dance of fire*
strike

You move and shoot with alacrity.

With this strike, you can make 2 ranged attacks with a standard action at your highest BAB. Both attacks are made at a -2 penalty.


*The weakest link*
boost

You aim your arrows at the joints in your foe's armour, thus bypassing their protection. 

Make a Spot check, with DC equal to your target's AC. If you succeed, you can bypass up to 2 points of armor/natural armor bonus to AC for 1 round.



*2nd level*

*Rhythm of air*
strike

You move with quick and graceful precision, loosing arrows with great speed.

With this strike, you can make 3 ranged attacks with a full-round action at your highest BAB. Both your attacks are made at a -4 penalty.


*Field of quills*
strike

You rain down arrows on the battlefield, creating a thicket of spikes that hinder your foes' progress.

As a full-round action, your arrows create difficult terrain. You can affect up to 4 5' squares, using 1d6 arrows/square.


*Hidden thorn attack*
boost

In the blink of an eye, you remove an arrow from its quiver and fit it to your bow.

As a swift action you gain an extra ranged attack, at a -2 penalty.


*Mighty arrows*
boost

You infuse your shots with your ki, dealing great damage.

Your ranged attacks for the round gain a bonus +1d6 points of damage. This bonus applies only to targets within 30'.



*3rd level*

*Indomitable archer's stance*
stance

You stand and fire a seemingly endless stream of missiles, causing your enemies no end of grief.

While in this stance, you can conjure ammunition magically, as if from thin air. Each round, you can call forth up to 5 missiles of a type suited to your weapon; these are considered nonmagical for the purpose of penetrating DR, but are affected by antimagic. Your missiles disappear 1 round after you create them, whether you use them or not.


*Unfurling steel blossom*
strike

You fire a single arrow into the air, which separates and transforms in mid-air into a cloud of deadly projectiles.

As a standard action you attack all creatures in a 10' radius burst, within your first range increment. Make a single ranged attack, which is applied to all targets (friend or foe). This attack requires only one arrow.


*Crimson arrow onslaught*
strike

You attack in a blinding flurry, sending a flood of arrows at your targets.

As a full-round action, you make one ranged attack on all foes in a 30' cone. Unlike unfurling steel blossom, this requires one arrow per target, and you can choose not to target friendly creatures within the area of effect.


*Avoidance of nemesis*
counter

A canny archer knows how to avoid the same weapon he uses.

As an immediate action you can force an opponent to reroll a ranged attack made on you, at -4 penalty. You can use this after knowing the result of the attack, but before damage is applied.



*4th level*

*Celeritous volley*
strike

You move and shoot in a graceful maneuver, loosing arrows while avoiding your foes' attacks.

As a full-round action you can make a full attack and move up to your speed. You can only attack with ranged weapons during this maneuver.


*Manticore attack*
strike

As a full-round action you can make 2 ranged attacks on each of 3 targets, at your full BAB. All targets have to be within a 60' cone starting from your position.


*Unrelenting aim*
boost

You track your foe, like a wolf stalking its prey. Despite his attempts to avoid your gaze, your arrows strike true.

Make a Spot check, with DC equal to your target's AC. If you succeed, your target is denied their Dex bonus to AC against your attacks for 1 round.


*Giant-felling volley*
strike

Your arrows form a deadly thicket, hindering and bleeding the life out of your enemy.

Make a full ranged attack on your target. If all your shots hit, your target takes a penalty to Strength equal to twice the number of shots you made, to a maximum of -10. You must hit with at least 3 shots to gain this benefit, which lasts for 4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save (DC 14 + Dex) negates the penalty.



*5th level*

*Perfected archer's stance*
stance

While in this stance, you can treat your missile weapon as a melee weapon with 10' reach for the purpose of AoOs and threatening. Thus you do not provoke AoOs for making attacks, but you can gain AoOs on enemies within 10' of you. Any AoOs you make are still treated as ranged attacks for the purpose of calculating your attack roll.


*Rebuke of the heavens*
strike

Your arrows strike home like a great barrage, knocking your target down or forcing it to take cover.

Make a full ranged attack on your enemy. If all your shots hit, your target is knocked prone. You must hit with at least 3 shots to gain this benefit. A successful Reflex save (DC 15 + Dex) negates the effect.


*Jade arrow flare*
boost

As a swift action you gain 2 extra ranged attacks. Your attacks are made at your highest BAB, at a -0 and -5 penalty on the first and second shot.


*Pierce the carapace*
boost

Make a Spot check, with DC equal to your target's AC. If you suceed, you can bypass up to 5 points of armor/natural armor bonus to AC for 1 round.



*6th level*

*Breath of the celestial dragon*
strike

As per crimson arrow onslaught, but affecting a 60' cone.


*Wrath of the earth dragon*
strike

Your arrows multiply in mid-air and rain down on the earth, creating a forest of shafts. Seconds afterwards, the earth erupts in a blast of geomantic energy as the ki flow from your maneuver is released.

As a full-round action, you fire your arrows to create difficult terrain. You can affect up to 1 5' square/IL, using one arrow per square. 1 round later, the ground within the squares erupts in showers of earth and stone, dealing 10d6 points of bludgeoning damage to anyone in the area. A successful Reflex save (DC 16 + Dex) halves the damage.


*Reaving arrows*
boost

You infuse your missiles with ki, gaining a bonus +2d6 points of damage per attack. This bonus only applies to targets within 60'.



*7th level*

*Tempest of thorns*
strike

Your arrows rain down on the battlefield, catching anyone beneath them in a hail of death.

As a full-round action, you can create a beaten zone as a 20' radius burst within your weapon's first range increment. Anyone who enters or is in the area is automatically subject to a ranged attack, at your full BAB. Creatures who were in the area during your turn are attacked at the start of their turn, while those entering the area afterwards are attacked at the moment they enter the are.


*Greater manticore attack*
strike

As per manticore attack, but you can make 3 attacks on each of 4 targets within a 120' cone.


*Arc of furious thunder*
boost

You draw back and release your bowstring with blazing speed and power, sending arrows arcing on their way with tremendous energy.

As a free action, you choose a number up to your IL. You subtract this number as a penalty from your ranged attacks, and apply it as a bonus to your ranged damage. This lasts until the start of your next turn. You only gain the bonus to damage against targets within 30'.



*8th level*

*Unquenchable fire stance*
stance

You call forth bolts of flaming energy and send them to strike your enemies.

While in this stance, you can conjure ammunition magically. Your missiles are considered magical for the purpose of penetrating DR and striking incorporeal foes. In addition, each missile deals a bonus +1d6 points of fire damage. Each missile is consumed immediately on use, or after 1 round regardless.


*Unfurling heavenly blossom*
strike

You fire a single arrow into the air. At the apex of its flight it multiplies into a cloud of deadly missiles, which rains doom on your foes.

As a standard action, you attack all creatures in a 30' radius burst within your weapon's first range increment. Make a single ranged attack, which is applied to all targets. Each hit deals double damage.


*Adamantine arrow flare*
boost

As a swift action you gain 3 extra attacks at your full BAB. Your attacks are made at a -0, -5 and -10 penalty for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd attack respectively. After using this maneuver, you are fatigued for the rest of encounter.


*Superb rending volley*
strike

Make a full ranged attack on your target. If all your shots hit, your target takes 2 points of Str damage per shot. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage.



*9th level*

*Tears of heaven*
strike

As a full-round action, you can make 2 full attacks with your ranged weapon. All your attacks must be ranged attacks. After using this maneuver, you are dazed for 1t round and fatigued for rest of encounter.


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## hong (Apr 15, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> Hmmm... interesting.
> 
> For _adamantine arrow flare_ and _tears of heavens_, they look like Raging Mangoose and Time Stands Still, respectively. I suggest to remove the fatigued condition.




Well, I'm actually of the opinion that time stands still is kinda broken. If anything, I'd apply the fatigued condition to that maneuver, as opposed to removing it from these. Still, you could go either way on this one.



> Since both disciplines use projectile weapons, the fact that you shoot LOTS of arrows/bolts should be their main weakness, as if you run out of ammo... you're screwed.




There's a couple of stances in Celestial Rain that create ammo for you. Diamond Arrow is about one-shot kills, so running out of ammo shouldn't be a problem. In any case, IME dedicated archers pick up handy haversacks and portable holes, and fill them with 100's of arrows, so ammo shortages tend to be rare.



> On a side note, which class can access these maneuvers ? Swordsages and warblades aren't even proficient with the bow or the crossbow... only the crusader.




Nifft has a ranger class that uses maneuvers (see his thread), which could use these. I'm tossing up whether to make a dedicated archer/scout class as well.


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## hong (Apr 15, 2007)

As a comment, doing strikes for Diamond Arrow was tricky. On the one hand, I wanted it to be competitive with a regular full attack (with Rapid Shot, haste and all the usual frills); on the other, too much and it becomes broken. I also didn't want to have 1-2 powerful strikes followed by nothing, since archers tend to be able to just full attack round after round, unlike the tanks.

The solution I've come up with is to leverage stances, so that they benefit strikes (but not anything else). As long as you're in a stance, you can do big damage with single shots; this also ties in with the idea of aiming carefully for maximum effect.

Both schools are rather sparse on counters, since, well, they're about ranged attacks. Gun-fu is about shooting people!


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## Nifft (Apr 15, 2007)

Some really good stuff here, but also some stuff I don't like.

There are some things here that need a duration. For example, Field of Quills is brilliant -- better than some of the things I wanted to do with Ranged Touch attacks hindering opponents -- but it's too big an area to last for more than 1 round. Personally, I like it as a low-level Counter (make 1 square Difficult terrain to stop a Charge or prevent a foe from taking a specific 5 ft. step, or something more creative), and then as a high-level Stance (a ring of Difficult terrain from 20 to 30 ft. out from your position).

I think we differ in valuing full attacks for archers vs. full attacks for melee guys. IMHO, a full attack is easier to get as an archer, and therefore is worth less; if a foe really doesn't want to feel your full attack, but you manage to set one up anyway, Time Stands Still lets him feel it twice. It's much harder to make an archer move before making an attack, so the value isn't as high -- archery isn't defended against by movement, it's defended against by cover, concealment, wind, and DR. (Especially DR.)

The one-shot-kill school already compensates for DR with its extra damage (much in the way that Power Attack + Charge compensates for DR), so I don't see the need to add a special DR penetration maneuver.

Some of the area attacks seem to need a range (the radius burst ones); the cone and line ones originate at your position, but the burst ones don't, do they?

More comments if/when I have time, and as soon as I'm done with the very time consuming *Dancing Fox*, I'll start pilfering without shame! 

Thanks, -- N


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## hong (Apr 16, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Some really good stuff here, but also some stuff I don't like.
> 
> There are some things here that need a duration. For example, Field of Quills is brilliant -- better than some of the things I wanted to do with Ranged Touch attacks hindering opponents -- but it's too big an area to last for more than 1 round.




4 squares isn't really that much. It'll form a nice barrier between you and the bad guys, but they could probably jump over it or go around. It might be good if you were in a 5' wide corridor, but that's about it. I'd make the size bigger if anything, but then you'd start running out of arrows.



> Personally, I like it as a low-level Counter (make 1 square Difficult terrain to stop a Charge or prevent a foe from taking a specific 5 ft. step, or something more creative), and then as a high-level Stance (a ring of Difficult terrain from 20 to 30 ft. out from your position).




The stance thing sounds intriguing, but could be difficult to implement. Is it like an immobile thicket? How do you reestablish it after moving? Or is it like a circling ring of arrows, like a blade barrier? Now that would be cool.



> I think we differ in valuing full attacks for archers vs. full attacks for melee guys. IMHO, a full attack is easier to get as an archer, and therefore is worth less; if a foe really doesn't want to feel your full attack, but you manage to set one up anyway, Time Stands Still lets him feel it twice. It's much harder to make an archer move before making an attack, so the value isn't as high -- archery isn't defended against by movement, it's defended against by cover, concealment, wind, and DR. (Especially DR.)




I'm not sure what you mean here.

I'd say that if the SOP for an archer is a full attack, that means if you're making stuff that's competing with it, it has to actually be competitive. Otherwise people will just keeping doing the same old, same old. The IH archer has the same problem: it has a bunch of cool-sounding tricks, but in the end, you're still usually better off just full attacking like you would in D&D. Which means the cool-sounding tricks end up being largely irrelevant.



> The one-shot-kill school already compensates for DR with its extra damage (much in the way that Power Attack + Charge compensates for DR), so I don't see the need to add a special DR penetration maneuver.




It's more thematic than pragmatic. Besides, it never hurts to do 10, or 15, or 30 points more damage.



> Some of the area attacks seem to need a range (the radius burst ones); the cone and line ones originate at your position, but the burst ones don't, do they?




? The range is within your 1st range increment.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 16, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you mean here.




Your version of TSS (ranged-only) is 9th level, dazes you for a round, and fatigues you for the rest of the encounter. Significantly worse than TSS, which already allows exactly that, but isn't limited to only ranged attacks.

Your maneuver is strictly worse than TSS, and I can't tell why, since the whole reason TSS is soooo good is because full attacks are hard to get in melee: when you get one and initiate TSS, you instead get two. It's double the benefit for a situation that's not trivial to set up.

Archers are at the other end of the spectrum: ranged full attacks are easy. So why would I bother to use Tears of Heaven?




			
				hong said:
			
		

> ? The range is within your 1st range increment.




Sorry, I don't see that written. Could you point out where?

- - -

I misread _field of quills_; thought it was a 30 ft. radius area (!!!) which would be silly.

My idea for the stance would be a "lazy" ring -- if an opponent entered, you'd have the option to spend one unit of ammo to make that square difficult (as a free action, so you could use a lot of ammo this way).

The Counter would be high-ish level, since it could potentially ruin any foe's charge against anyone in the party. But that's cool IMHO.

- - -

There is one cast-iron rule I see you violating: *stances shall remain useful*. There are some high-level stances that are strictly better than low-level stances of the same school, and that's not good, since you can't trade them out. Not sure exactly how to fix, since the school seems to rely on damage multiplication via stance.  :\ 

Oh well, mostly good! And best of all, there's stuff I can steal! 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Your version of TSS (ranged-only) is 9th level, dazes you for a round, and fatigues you for the rest of the encounter. Significantly worse than TSS, which already allows exactly that, but isn't limited to only ranged attacks.




In practice, people who have TSS are going to use it for melee attacks. You have to be 17th level to get it, and by that time most of your gold and feats are going to be tied up in melee items. I guess you could have a multiclassed fighter/warblade with a longbow, but none of their other abilities work at range, so they really have little reason to be focusing on it.



> Your maneuver is strictly worse than TSS, and I can't tell why, since the whole reason TSS is soooo good is because full attacks are hard to get in melee: when you get one and initiate TSS, you instead get two.




IME it's not too hard to get a full attack. Often the bad guy also wants to get a full attack on you; even if they don't, you have maneuvers like sudden leap, shadow blink or quicksilver motion. You should check out Rystil Arden's rants about action-granting items in some of the MIC threads.



> Archers are at the other end of the spectrum: ranged full attacks are easy. So why would I bother to use Tears of Heaven?




Um, to get two full attacks? It's about DPS, to borrow the MMORPG term. Consider the two scenarios:

1) I make an attack; BBEG gets a kaboom attack off; I make another attack which kills the BBEG assuming I survive

2) I make two attacks; BBEG dies, does not get a kaboom attack off; I am dazed, but it doesn't matter because the BBEG is dead

It's a finishing move, like the Iron Heart strike. Or you could remove the dazed+fatigued condition, which would make it more like the maneuvers in the book. ToH also has synergy with the other boosts like adamantine arrow flare, which gives more attacks than raging mongoose (albeit at a penalty).



> Sorry, I don't see that written. Could you point out where?




Here's one:

*Unfurling steel blossom*
strike

You fire a single arrow into the air, which separates and transforms in mid-air into a cloud of deadly projectiles.

As a standard action you attack all creatures in a 10' radius burst, within your first range increment.​


> The Counter would be high-ish level, since it could potentially ruin any foe's charge against anyone in the party. But that's cool IMHO.




I don't really see how this would stop people charging, since like I said, they could just jump over the difficult terrain.



> There is one cast-iron rule I see you violating: *stances shall remain useful*.




Now, is that cast-iron because it's explicitly stated somewhere, or is it simply that current stances don't overlap much, leaving open the question of whether it's kosher to go outside that convention...?



> There are some high-level stances that are strictly better than low-level stances of the same school, and that's not good, since you can't trade them out. Not sure exactly how to fix, since the school seems to rely on damage multiplication via stance.  :\




The issue is really that there's one thing that the school does, and that is: shoot. So it's natural that all the stances are going to be about shooting, thus they'll overlap.

Well, I guess that's not strictly true, since it's also about truth, mental steadfastness and seeing through falsehoods. So I could have a stance that gives you, for example, continuous true seeing or something. But that would mean reducing the damage on a shot, if you leave the stance where you do extra damage. But maybe that's reasonable.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 16, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> In practice, people who have TSS are going to use it for melee attacks. You have to be 17th level to get it, and by that time most of your gold and feats are going to be tied up in melee items. I guess you could have a multiclassed fighter/warblade with a longbow, but none of their other abilities work at range, so they really have little reason to be focusing on it.



You only need four prereqs. An Elf Warblade could easily pick up:
- Moment of Perfect Mind
- Mind Over Body
- Hearing the Air
- Diamond Defense or Stance of Alacrity (the latter being especially useful for a Warblade)

(in that order, it's a pretty natural progression)

I'm sure he'd want to mix it up in melee too, and would choose maneuvers to support melee style as well, but it's a natural progression IMHO and one could very well end up taking TSS with the intent of using it for both ranged and melee combat.

Of course, you'd still be playing an Elf...




			
				hong said:
			
		

> IME it's not too hard to get a full attack. Often the bad guy also wants to get a full attack on you; even if they don't, you have maneuvers like sudden leap, shadow blink or quicksilver motion. You should check out Rystil Arden's rants about action-granting items in some of the MIC threads.



Oh no. I agree that it's not terribly hard to set up. But my point is that melee guys have to expend resources or take risks to do so; ranged guys, not so much. 




			
				hong said:
			
		

> Um, to get two full attacks? It's about DPS, to borrow the MMORPG term.



No, I do understand, I just think you're nerfing it too much.

In my experience, the enemy counter-strike is a more common (and dire) risk for the melee guy; archers can afford to be relatively laid back so long as there's someone between them and trouble. The "kaboom"s tend to happen to spellcasters and tanks.



			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Unfurling steel blossom*
> strike
> 
> You fire a single arrow into the air, which separates and transforms in mid-air into a cloud of deadly projectiles.
> ...



Thanks, I did miss that.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> I don't really see how this would stop people charging, since like I said, they could just jump over the difficult terrain.



Some folks just can't jump... but I don't see anything about jumping in the Charge description, which does say that you can't charge through Difficult terrain.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> Now, is that cast-iron because it's explicitly stated somewhere, or is it simply that current stances don't overlap much, leaving open the question of whether it's kosher to go outside that convention...?



Can't find where it was stated, but I do recall reading it somewhere... and it's certainly true. Those stances that don't scale with key skill rank (which is a proxy for level) have benefits which are still good at high level; Stance of Clarity will be just as sweet when you're fighting one big dragon as it was when you were fighting one big bugbear.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> You only need four prereqs. An Elf Warblade could easily pick up:
> - Moment of Perfect Mind
> - Mind Over Body
> - Hearing the Air
> ...




Like I said, by that time you're a 17th level character with a lot more resources (including all your warblade abilities other than those Diamond Mind maneuvers) sunk into melee than ranged. You can do it, but chances are you'll be using your +10 greatsword a lot more than your longbow.

Basically, I choose to ignore the fact that TST allows ranged attacks as well as melee attacks, on the basis that the schools and classes in ToB are all melee oriented, all the maneuvers are melee-oriented, and people claim that classes like the warblade and swordsage are balanced by how they're melee-oriented. The fact that the wording of TST is loose in this respect doesn't bother me.



> No, I do understand, I just think you're nerfing it too much.
> 
> In my experience, the enemy counter-strike is a more common (and dire) risk for the melee guy; archers can afford to be relatively laid back so long as there's someone between them and trouble. The "kaboom"s tend to happen to spellcasters and tanks.




I'm not sure how the example is affected in any substantial way if I modify it to:

1) I make an attack; BBEG gets a kaboom attack off; I make another attack which kills the BBEG but two party members are dead

2) I make two attacks; BBEG dies, does not get a kaboom attack off; I am dazed, but it doesn't matter because the BBEG is dead



> Some folks just can't jump... but I don't see anything about jumping in the Charge description, which does say that you can't charge through Difficult terrain.




It's in the FAQ that you can jump as part of a charge. I asked that question myself not so long ago.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 16, 2007)

Just for spite fun, I decided to make an Elf Warblade who's focused on archery from the get-go. This assumes no XP penalty for multi-classing. If there is a penalty, just make it a Human and let the Fighter levels cover Longbow proficiency -- we just won't take anything Bow-specific until after we have Fighter levels. (Humans obviously get another bonus Feat at 1st level -- prolly Adaptive Style.)

*Level / Class -- [Bonus] Feat(s); Maneuver(s); Stance*
1/ Warblade 1 -- Weapon Finesse; Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Douse the Flames; Blood in the Water
2/ Warblade 2 -- Steel Wind
3/ Warblade 3 -- Point Blank Shot -- Wall of Blades
4/ Fighter 1 -- Rapid Shot
5/ Fighter 2 -- Weapon Focus (Longbow)
6/ Warblade 4 -- Weapon Specialization (Longbow); Steel Wind -> White Raven Tactics; Absolute Steel Stance
7/ Warblade 5 -- [Improved Initiative]; Lion's Roar
8/ Warblade 6 -- Wall of Blades -> Mind Over Body
9/ Warblade 7 -- Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing); Iron Heart Surge
10/ Warblade 8 -- Douse the Flames -> Disrupting Blow
11/ Warblade 9 -- [Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind)]; Iron Heart Focus
12/ Warblade 10 -- Adaptive Style; Hearing the Air
13/ Warblade 11 -- Iron Heart Endurance
14/ Warblade 12 -- 
15/ Warblade 13 -- [White Raven Defense], Improved Critical (Longbow); Quicksilver Motion
16/ Warblade 14 -- 
17/ Warblade 15 -- Lightning Throw
18/ Warblade 16 -- Martial Stance (Leading the Charge); Stance of Alacrity
19/ Warblade 17 -- [Blind-Fight]; Time Stands Still
20/ Warblade 18 -- 

He will fight with a longbow (duh) and a pair of spiked gauntlets, which he will use to smack opponents who come too close. This smacking will generally attempt to disable the opponent with a standard action Diamond Mind strike, so the Warblade can run away.

He will use most of his class abilities defensively.

There are a lot of White Raven area or ally maneuvers which he can use to "direct battle" from relative safety; in particular, Lion's Roar allows him to initiate it when he drops an opponent by any means, at any range (as opposed to Fountain of Blood, which requires that the dropped foe be within your threatened area). The rest of his maneuvers are geared towards mobility and self-preservation.

*Leading the Charge* is taken mostly for irony value. The stance will benefit his party, but he won't be leading anything. 

This looks like it could be a fairly effective character, even though he's ignoring the intent of most of his class features. He's not someone you want to run up to and attack, but neither is he someone you can safely ignore. If you sunder his bow, he'll take a round to Adaptive Style himself his few melee maneuvers, and then you will be in trouble. 

There are a bunch of levels where he could swap out old maneuvers for new ones; I didn't bother, but he could easily have Diamond Nightmare Blade by sacrificing... something. I dunno.

Anyway, IMHO this would be viable (albeit sub-optimal) with the schools out there right now. So an archery school should do better.

So, anyone want to play this? 

Cheers, -- N


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## hong (Apr 16, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Anyway, IMHO this would be viable (albeit sub-optimal) with the schools out there right now. So an archery school should do better.




Sigh. Nifft, you're really smart and creative and all, and I value your feedback, but you're making it difficult, you know?

The Celestial Rain school _is_ better. For 8 maneuver levels, it gives you more funky archery stunts than you can shake a stick at. It certainly gives you a lot more toys to play with than any of the schools in the book, if your chosen niche is archery.

There is ONE maneuver which is of debatable utility, compared to another maneuver in a school which otherwise gives bugger-all to archers. And even if it comes out second-best compared to that maneuver, in absolute terms it still gives an immense boost to the person using it. Most certainly anyone on the receiving end will be in no doubt that it's pretty awesome, bordering even on munchkin.

This is akin to people complaining that wizards are unplayable if you ban wish. Like hell they are. They are exactly as playable as always, for 16 character levels or 80% of the non-epic lifespan. Perhaps if you base all your character decisions on the distant, oft-unattainable basis of what happens at 20th, there might be an issue. And I bet you also bought Enron shares.

. . .

In any case, fine, if it's that big an issue, drop the daze+fatigue bit. Personally I'd nerf time stands still by applying the same penalty to it, although this may change depending on experience.


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## jasin (Apr 16, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> I said to Nifft that I was working up a couple of schools for archery/missileers, so here they are. Diamond Arrow is for snipers; Celestial Rain is for machine-gun archers.



Overall, I like 'em. Particularly how you managed to make two different styles of archery.



> *Celestial Rain*
> *3rd level*
> 
> *indomitable archer's stance:* stance -- generate ammunition magically, considered nonmagical, up to 5 missiles/rd



IME, most people tend to treat ammunition like material components: barring extraordinary circumstances, if you need it, you have it. Of course, in this extraordinary circumstances, this would be useful, but I'm not sure it really warrants a 3rd-level stance. You can only use one stance at the time, and you cannot swap known stances later, so I don't think something this situational is very useful.



> *9th level*
> 
> *tears of heaven:* strike -- 2 full attacks as full-round action, you are dazed next round, fatigued for rest of encounter



This _really_ doesn't compare well to time stands still, or with the discipline's other strikes.

If you're a warblade, 2 full attacks get you +20/+15/+10/+5/+20/+15/+10/+5. Jade arrow flare (5th-level) gets you +20/+15/+20/+15/+10/+5, more than half the benefit, without any drawbacks, and with the additional option of making it +20/+20/+15 plus a move action, since it's a boost.

If you're a swordsage, tears of heaven are even less attractive, since you only get 6 attacks compared to the JAF's 5.

Also, note that fatigue is particularly damaging for an archer. -2 Str, -2 Dex will tend to mean -1 damage, -3 to attack, since the -2 Str will likely take you below the Str rating of your bow.

BTW, my favorite one is field of quills.

Edit: OK, I now see that TOH is already being debated in depth...  It does make sense to include some penalties if you feel times stands still is over the top. I'm not sure it is, compared to stuff like the heal thing from Devoted Mind, or the approach-attack-for-+100-disengage possible with strike of perfect clarity + sudden leap. I'd rather be working with the assumption that the other disciplines' 9th-level maneuvers are OK, and adjust if needed after seeing it in play. If TSS and TOH are too much without the penalties, add penalties to both.

But what I'd really like to see as the 9th-level maneuver for Celestial Rain is something new, rather than just "TSS for ranged".

OTOH, now that I look at it, Diamond Arrow's 9th-level seems a bit over the top (compared to strike of perfect clarity). A character using it _will_ be in a Diamond Arrow stance, so it's either +100 damage or +150 damage if you're willing to give up Dex to AC, and +2d4 Dex on top. Also, why Dex?


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> Overall, I like 'em. Particularly how you managed to make two different styles of archery.




I've been thinking about it for a long time. 



> IME, most people tend to treat ammunition like material components: barring extraordinary circumstances, if you need it, you have it. Of course, in this extraordinary circumstances, this would be useful, but I'm not sure it really warrants a 3rd-level stance. You can only use one stance at the time, and you cannot swap known stances later, so I don't think something this situational is very useful.




Well, people don't track ammo later on, when portable holes and bags of holding become available. Early on, though, may be a different story. In any case, like the Diamond Arrow strike that ignores DR/hardness, it's more thematic than pragmatic (flavour text notwithstanding).

Actually, I just thought of one case where a higher-level stance is better than a lower-level one: Shadow Hand. Once you have balance on the sky (8th level), dance of the spider (3rd) and step of the fluttering month (5th) become almost superfluous.



> This _really_ doesn't compare well to time stands still, or with the discipline's other strikes.
> 
> If you're a warblade, 2 full attacks get you +20/+15/+10/+5/+20/+15/+10/+5. Jade arrow flare (5th-level) gets you +20/+15/+20/+15/+10/+5, more than half the benefit, without any drawbacks, and with the additional option of making it +20/+20/+15 plus a move action, since it's a boost.
> 
> If you're a swordsage, tears of heaven are even less attractive, since you only get 6 attacks compared to the JAF's 5.




However, you can use tears of heaven and JAF (or AAF) in the same round: +20/+15/+10 // +20/+15/+10/+5 // +20/+15/+10/+5.

And you might as well add Rapid Shot, which any self-respecting machine-gun archer will have: +18/+13/+8 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 // +18/+13/+8/+3

(assuming Rapid Shot only gives one extra attack)

Basically, getting two full attacks at once strikes me as incredibly good, especially when you start adding in the extras (haste is pretty much a given, for instance). As said above, you can take the daze+fatigue out to be consistent with the book, but personally I'd go the other way and nerf time stands still.



> BTW, my favorite one is field of quills.




I think I like the delayed minefield best (wrath of the earth dragon).


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> OTOH, now that I look at it, Diamond Arrow's 9th-level seems a bit over the top (compared to strike of perfect clarity). A character using it _will_ be in a Diamond Arrow stance, so it's either +100 damage or +150 damage if you're willing to give up Dex to AC, and +2d4 Dex on top.




Strike of perfect clarity is probably a bit weak, actually. I'm already regularly doing 160-200 points with diamond nightmare blade, even without true strike; in the last session, I hit 270 with a DNB critical. At best, a warblade Power Attacking for max with strike of perfect clarity might do 100 + 40 + (normal damage), or something like 160-170 points. It would be great if you scored a crit, but that's not something to be relied on.

With time stands still, raging mongoose and haste, I could get 10 attacks per round (SS20), each doing around 25-30. A WB20 would get 12 attacks, so that's about 300-360 if they all hit.



> Also, why Dex?




It seemed in line with the other strikes that slow you down. Con damage would be over the top, and I was looking for something that stopped you cold, rather than killing you.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 16, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Sigh. Nifft, you're really smart and creative and all, and I value your feedback, but you're making it difficult, you know?



Sorry for that. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just trying to think this stuff through, and do so out loud. When two smart & creative people disagree about something, then one of three things is true:
1/ One of us is wrong;
2/ Both of us are wrong;
3/ Both of us are right, because the margin for error is large enough to encompass both views.

I don't see any way to figure out which condition holds other than discussing specifics. Your assertion ("more damage now is better") is both true and vacuous -- these high-level maneuvers aren't free, they're the pinnacle class feature of a dude who's supposed to stand up and not be ashamed next to a Cleric and/or a Druid.

Given the ease with which an archer can pull off a full attack, and the commonness of Rapid Shot, I think that the sort of defense used against archers is going to be different than the defense against melee guys. There are spells that straight up negate archery (_wind wall_, but anything that affects wind speed can do the trick), and since you can't Power Attack or abuse Stormguard Warrior (Combat Rhythm), DR is going to be a bigger issue for an archer than for a melee guy.

Anyway. IMHO the maneuver TSS is weaker if restricted to archery than it would be if it were restricted to melee, and IMHO it's worth taking four non-melee specific Diamond Mind maneuvers even if you are playing an archer with few available maneuvers, if TSS is your goal. (Also, I wanted to find currently unexploited archery-compatible maneuvers, so the build was useful in that regard.)




			
				hong said:
			
		

> wizards are [not] unplayable if you ban wish.



 No argument there.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> In any case, fine, if it's that big an issue, drop the daze+fatigue bit. Personally I'd nerf time stands still by applying the same penalty to it, although this may change depending on experience.



 Please do update with your experience. I think that a Warblade would get more use out of this particular maneuver -- many attacks favor those who can add damage to all of them, with stuff like Power Attack, Stormguard Warrior, Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery. The best combos I've seen were with Tiger Claw / Diamond Mind builds, I think, using Raging Mongoose and the TWF chain to get really quite a lot of attacks.

- - -

Good find on the Shadow Hand stances. There are two things to note, though: Balance On Air is (Su) while the other two are (Ex), and Balance On Air is affected by wind speed (the other two are not). Perhaps those are regarded as mitigating factors?

Anyway. Constructive crits when my taxes are done. Would you mind peeking at *Dancing Fox* over in my thread? If you can't, no worries.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## jasin (Apr 16, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Strike of perfect clarity is probably a bit weak, actually. I'm already regularly doing 160-200 points with diamond nightmare blade, even without true strike; in the last session, I hit 270 with a DNB critical. At best, a warblade Power Attacking for max with strike of perfect clarity might do 100 + 40 + (normal damage), or something like 160-170 points. It would be great if you scored a crit, but that's not something to be relied on.



DNB is x4 damage, right? So the benefit of the strike is +120-150 damage, with your normal damage being 40-50. Yes, this considered, it would seem that SoPC's +100 isn't all that. SoPC doesn't require a concentration check, but then, how often do you fail that with DNB?



> With time stands still, raging mongoose and haste, I could get 10 attacks per round (SS20), each doing around 25-30. A WB20 would get 12 attacks, so that's about 300-360 if they all hit.



This is only tangentially related, but does raging mongoose suffer from TWF penalties? It says you get two attacks with each weapon, and your highest attack bonus. Is that supposed to implicitly include TWF penalties? My first guess was yes, but after reading wolf fang strike (attack with two weapons as a standard action at -2) I'm not so sure, because that one seems to include a "TWF penalty". And if stuff like mithral tornado can pretty much obviate the need for Whirlwind Attack, maybe Tiger Claw is supposed to do the same for TWF...?


----------



## jasin (Apr 16, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Anyway. Constructive crits when my taxes are done. Would you mind peeking at *Dancing Fox* over in my thread? If you can't, no worries.



Good thing you mentioned that, I would have missed it otherwise!


----------



## jasin (Apr 16, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> However, you can use tears of heaven and JAF (or AAF) in the same round: +20/+15/+10 // +20/+15/+10/+5 // +20/+15/+10/+5.



Good point.



> And you might as well add Rapid Shot, which any self-respecting machine-gun archer will have: +18/+13/+8 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 // +18/+13/+8/+3
> 
> (assuming Rapid Shot only gives one extra attack)



Hm. My interpretation would be +20/+15/+10 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3. Two complete full attack actions, so two extra attacks from Rapid Shot, and the boost, which is pretty much an action of it's own, without any penalty. After all, you could AAF and cast a spell (or something), with no effect on AAF, so why not AAF and Rapid Shot (with not effect on AAF?



> I think I like the delayed minefield best (wrath of the earth dragon).



Too obviously magical to by my favorite.


----------



## hong (Apr 17, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Sorry for that. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just trying to think this stuff through, and do so out loud. When two smart & creative people disagree about something, then one of three things is true:
> 1/ One of us is wrong;
> 2/ Both of us are wrong;
> 3/ Both of us are right, because the margin for error is large enough to encompass both views.




No muss, no fuss.



> I don't see any way to figure out which condition holds other than discussing specifics. Your assertion ("more damage now is better") is both true and vacuous -- these high-level maneuvers aren't free, they're the pinnacle class feature of a dude who's supposed to stand up and not be ashamed next to a Cleric and/or a Druid.
> 
> Given the ease with which an archer can pull off a full attack, and the commonness of Rapid Shot, I think that the sort of defense used against archers is going to be different than the defense against melee guys. There are spells that straight up negate archery (_wind wall_, but anything that affects wind speed can do the trick), and since you can't Power Attack or abuse Stormguard Warrior (Combat Rhythm), DR is going to be a bigger issue for an archer than for a melee guy.
> 
> Anyway. IMHO the maneuver TSS is weaker if restricted to archery than it would be if it were restricted to melee, and IMHO it's worth taking four non-melee specific Diamond Mind maneuvers even if you are playing an archer with few available maneuvers, if TSS is your goal. (Also, I wanted to find currently unexploited archery-compatible maneuvers, so the build was useful in that regard.)




I don't see what you're trying to argue here. I also don't see what's "true but vacuous" about my assertion, which was basically there to refute the suggestion that getting 2 full attacks at once wasn't useful.

When you come down to it, what I'm saying is this:

1) Time stands still is very good for archery, even if it were restricted to that alone (ie, no melee attacks).
2) It's still very good for archery, even if you then nerf it with additional backlash-type drawbacks.

In a way, you're agreeing with the first point yourself. You're willing to cherry-pick Diamond Mind maneuvers just to get TST for an archer, despite the bulk of the school being oriented to melee. That tells me, if TST was taken out of Diamond Mind and put in its own archery-specific school, you'd definitely be willing to take it (even if it was ranged-only, since, hey, you're an archer).

I think the point of disagreement is over the further nerfing with daze+fatigue. Are you saying that this nerf makes TST no longer worthwhile, even if it was in its own archery-specific school? That an archer would just go straight to Diamond Mind for the better version, forgoing the other maneuvers in the Celestial Rain school?

I can certainly see that if an archer had access to both the Diamond Mind _and_ Celestial Rain schools, then they would choose the original TST over the nerfed version. I'm not sure how relevant this is, though.




> Please do update with your experience. I think that a Warblade would get more use out of this particular maneuver -- many attacks favor those who can add damage to all of them, with stuff like Power Attack, Stormguard Warrior, Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery. The best combos I've seen were with Tiger Claw / Diamond Mind builds, I think, using Raging Mongoose and the TWF chain to get really quite a lot of attacks.




A ftr4/(archer something)16 could also get Weapon Spec and Ranged Weapon Mastery, and Rapid Shot is a lot more common among archers than TWF is among tanks.

And yes, I fully agree with your earlier assertion that it's much easier for archers to full attack every round than for tanks. This means that rewards for making full attacks should be smaller for archers than for tanks. Which is why tears of heaven is not quite as good as time stands still, although still pretty awesome.


----------



## hong (Apr 17, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> DNB is x4 damage, right? So the benefit of the strike is +120-150 damage, with your normal damage being 40-50.




Average 25 normally, plus another 20 from Power Attacking for -10. For most opponents, this is still anywhere from a 2 to 10 needed to hit on the d20 roll. And this is with a swordsage (BAB +15 maximum) with Str not that high by 20th level standards (22); for a twinked warblade, it gets even better.



> Yes, this considered, it would seem that SoPC's +100 isn't all that. SoPC doesn't require a concentration check, but then, how often do you fail that with DNB?




The Concentration check isn't the problem, modulo freaks like Dragotha (AC 58).



> This is only tangentially related, but does raging mongoose suffer from TWF penalties? It says you get two attacks with each weapon, and your highest attack bonus. Is that supposed to implicitly include TWF penalties? My first guess was yes, but after reading wolf fang strike (attack with two weapons as a standard action at -2) I'm not so sure, because that one seems to include a "TWF penalty". And if stuff like mithral tornado can pretty much obviate the need for Whirlwind Attack, maybe Tiger Claw is supposed to do the same for TWF...?




I don't see why raging mongoose would have penalties. If you have haste, you get an extra attack without a penalty, and in fact you get a +1 bonus.



> Hm. My interpretation would be +20/+15/+10 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 // +18/+18/+13/+8/+3. Two complete full attack actions, so two extra attacks from Rapid Shot, and the boost, which is pretty much an action of it's own, without any penalty.




Hyp pointed out that TWF grants one extra attack _per round_, with the proviso that you need to full attack to use it. Rapid Shot uses similar language. By contrast, haste grants an extra attack on a full attack action, with no reference to attacks per round.

It's all too complicated....


----------



## Crashy75 (Apr 17, 2007)

Time stands still with ranged attacks????  *looks it up*  Oh yeah.  It just says, "make two full round attacks".  Nope.  Wouldn't allow it.  I would guess that that was a mistake.  With that in mind I think Hong's version is fine.  The ranged version shouldn't be as good as the melee version because range is _that_ much better.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 17, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> In a way, you're agreeing with the first point yourself. You're willing to cherry-pick Diamond Mind maneuvers just to get TST for an archer, despite the bulk of the school being oriented to melee. That tells me, if TST was taken out of Diamond Mind and put in its own archery-specific school, you'd definitely be willing to take it (even if it was ranged-only, since, hey, you're an archer).




Honestly, I'm not sure that I would. I just wanted to see if someone wanted that maneuver, could he get it without needing to take any melee-specific maneuvers or stances? And it seems he could.



			
				hong said:
			
		

> I think the point of disagreement is over the further nerfing with daze+fatigue.




That's exactly right. I agree that it's strong, but I don't think it's worth losing a round's worth of actions, or taking a penalty for the rest of the encounter.

IMHO, appropriate nerfs would be limited to the round in which you initiate -- you could be flat-footed for that round, or you could take a -6 penalty to AC, or something like that. Internally balanced, like a Charge action, rather than "pay-on-credit" like a Wild Surge.

However, I think I prefer your mechanic of just giving a fixed number of extra attacks. TSS can be its own unique thing over in Diamond Mind; no need to port it to archery, since it already works with archery just fine. Giving the machine gun archer three or four extra attacks at full BAB (or all with a -2 penalty) would be about the same, but far less controversial. 



			
				hong said:
			
		

> I can certainly see that if an archer had access to both the Diamond Mind _and_ Celestial Rain schools, then they would choose the original TST over the nerfed version. I'm not sure how relevant this is, though.




If they've got access to Diamond Arrow, Diamond Mind and Celestial Arrow, then they'd be crazy not to exploit some of the key skill synergy between DM and DA.

But that's probably even less relevant. 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## hong (Apr 17, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Honestly, I'm not sure that I would. I just wanted to see if someone wanted that maneuver, could he get it without needing to take any melee-specific maneuvers or stances? And it seems he could.




Humour me. IF you were a specialist archer, would you take something like time stands still for archery, assuming there were no strings attached (no non-archery maneuvers needed, no weird drawbacks, etc)? I think so.



> That's exactly right. I agree that it's strong, but I don't think it's worth losing a round's worth of actions, or taking a penalty for the rest of the encounter.
> 
> IMHO, appropriate nerfs would be limited to the round in which you initiate -- you could be flat-footed for that round, or you could take a -6 penalty to AC, or something like that. Internally balanced, like a Charge action, rather than "pay-on-credit" like a Wild Surge.




I think what we've got here is a clash of paradigms. As written, D&D basically doesn't do much to encourage ramping-up of combat intensity. You're just as well off opening with your best attack, as anything else. In fact, you're encouraged to open with your best attack, since that may well kill the other guy before they can hit back.

I don't like this, and I've posted before about how to fix it. Options included powerful one-use defenses (to soak up the one-use attacks), and powerful offenses with lingering drawbacks (so you're encouraged to use them only when you believe they'll end a fight, rather than immediately). Some of the ToB maneuvers are a bit like this: eg finishing move, in Iron Heart. You could also argue barbarian rage is like this, although the duration is usually long enough that the fatigue doesn't matter.

Tears of heaven follows in the same vein. IMO it's powerful enough that it could well decide a fight on its own, so rather than have the fight over before it's really got started, I encourage the archer to use it only when they're sure of the kill. Which in practice may just mean on the second round instead of the first, but that's still a net gain.

And as I said before, I'm choosing to ignore the fact that time stands still works with ranged attacks. Hell, if anything I'd nerf TST the same way as tears of heaven.



> If they've got access to Diamond Arrow, Diamond Mind and Celestial Arrow, then they'd be crazy not to exploit some of the key skill synergy between DM and DA.




The point is, no class currently gives access to all of Diamond Mind, Diamond Arrow and Celestial Rain. And any specialist archer who is actually meant for play, as opposed to proving a point, has far better classes to choose from than warblade and swordsage.


----------



## jasin (Apr 17, 2007)

> Hyp pointed out that TWF grants one extra attack _per round_, with the proviso that you need to full attack to use it. Rapid Shot uses similar language. By contrast, haste grants an extra attack on a full attack action, with no reference to attacks per round.



I think he's being needlessly nitpicky. If I have no problem with a greatsword-wielding Power Attacking warblade doubling his offense with TSS, I have no problem with a TWF warblade doubling his offense with TSS, rather than just adding another full attack action which cannot be TWF because TWF only adds another attack per round and not per full attack action.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 17, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> *Diamond Arrow*
> 
> *1st level*
> 
> ...




I don't like that this is the only stance available at 1st level, and yet it's useless until you get 2nd level maneuvers.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Unbending arrow*
> strike
> 
> You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +2d6 points of damage.




Seems fine, except for missing synergy with stance (above).




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Keen sense of the archer*
> boost
> 
> Choose a target. You can ignore its cover bonus to AC if any, and reroll any concealment miss chance that may apply.




Nice, and not that powerful.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Blindfire strike*
> boost
> 
> If a ranged attack of yours misses, you can reroll the attack. You gain this benefit only on one ranged attack, which must be made before the start of your next turn.




Check out the wording on Lightning Recovery (Iron Heart).





			
				hong said:
			
		

> *2nd level*
> 
> *emerald initiate's attack*
> strike
> ...




Damage is low (compared to Rapid Shot); the stances seem required.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Pierce the shadows*
> boost
> 
> You gain a +20 insight bonus to your next ranged attack, ignore concealment miss chance. You must make the attack before the start of your next turn to gain this benefit.




Swift _true strike_. Humm. Seems strong for this level. Perhaps a bonus that scaled with Initiator Level instead?




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *3rd level*
> 
> *Confound the blade*
> strike
> ...




"You make one ranged attack as part of this maneuver..._blah blah Disarm blah_. If you fail, your target cannot attempt to disarm you, because that would be silly."




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Sapphire spirit shot*
> strike
> 
> You make a single ranged attack, which gains a bonus +10 points of damage.




Fine, but still weak, and usually there's at least one level between such similar maneuvers.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Eye of the archon*
> boost
> 
> You reach out with your mind, confounding your foe's attempts to dodge your aim.
> ...




Improved Swift Feint at range. Hmm. You don't like the existing Concentration check DC = AC mechanic of the Diamond Mind stuff? A lot of targets aren't going to have Sense Motive checks worth a damn.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Shot of perfection*
> strike
> 
> With a single arrow, you cut a swathe through your enemies.
> ...




An area attack with no saving throw, hmm. The mechanic is simple, but I'm not sure how balanced it is, since you could use an action point or a re-roll to effectively apply an attack to many foes. What about criticals?




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *4th level*
> 
> *Iron arrow stance*
> stance
> ...




4th level stances are rare. Is this targeted at a specific class or PrC progression?




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Striking the heart*
> strike
> 
> Your shot strikes with deadly precision. Make an attack roll; if you hit, your attack is automatically considered a critical threat.




Cool. Anything fun happen if your attack roll was a crit?





			
				hong said:
			
		

> *5th level*
> 
> *Golem-smashing shot*
> boost
> ...




This really looks like a Strike to me rather than a Boost. If it were a Strike, it'd be balanced without the need for a check.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Transcendent mind*
> counter
> 
> Your devotion to truth and enlightenment turns away those who would influence your mind.
> ...




Looks quite strong. Since it's a Counter, you could initiate it in response to a spell. Is your intent to negate the spells that would affect you during this maneuver's duration, or to simply suppress them?





			
				hong said:
			
		

> *6th level*
> 
> *Smite the mountain*
> boost
> ...




Cool, but looks like a Strike to me.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Diamond surge*
> strike
> 
> Make a single ranged attack. If you hit, you gain a bonus +5d6 points of damage, and your target is staggered 1d4 rounds. A successful Will save (DC 16 + Wis mod) halves the duration, but not the bonus damage.




Minimum duration 0 or 1?




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *7th level*
> 
> *Ghost-cleaving shot*
> strike
> ...




Cool. Might want to make this one a series, since incorporeal foes can crop up even among low CR undead. Or, if you keep the flat-footed and ranged-touch maneuvers as boosts, make the ghost touch thing a boost too.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *8th level*
> 
> *Mithral arrow stance*
> stance
> ...




Two very potent effects. Consider separating them into two stances with no drawback.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Unstoppable solar's bolt*
> strike
> 
> Your arrow transforms into a mighty bolt of geomantic energy, clearing a path through your enemies.
> ...




3rd level to 8th level, seems quite a difference in level for the range benefit. (Still don't like the single roll thing. The mechanic for the Iron Heart are attack seems better IMHO, where an attack roll sets the Reflex save DC.)




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *9th level*
> 
> *Shot of destiny inevitable*
> strike
> ...




Good, moves up to very good if you expect the +50 to be multiplied by 2 or 3. The dexterity drain is (potentially) nasty!

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Nifft (Apr 17, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> I think he's being needlessly nitpicky. If I have no problem with a greatsword-wielding Power Attacking warblade doubling his offense with TSS, I have no problem with a TWF warblade doubling his offense with TSS, rather than just adding another full attack action which cannot be TWF because TWF only adds another attack per round and not per full attack action.




Probably. It was posted in the nitpicky forum after all. 

Two full-attack actions in one round wasn't a common situation when the Core rules were written, so "per round" vs. "per full-attack action" didn't previously need disambiguation.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Nifft (Apr 17, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> *Celestial Rain*
> 
> *1st level*
> 
> ...




Most adversaries will have either an armor or natural armor bonus, so I don't see a great need for this limitation, unless it works better against foes who have both?





			
				hong said:
			
		

> *2nd level*
> 
> *Rhythm of air*
> strike
> ...




The penalty here does a lot to negate the benefit. I can see how it's an extension of Rapid Shot, but it seems inferior to the 1st level strike.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Field of quills*



 One of my favorites.  Already discussed, but I'd like to reiterate that there's no need to make it a Strike. It can just be an untyped maneuver (like Iron Heart Surge or Shadow Jaunt).



			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Hidden thorn attack*
> boost
> 
> In the blink of an eye, you remove an arrow from its quiver and fit it to your bow.
> ...




Cool. I like this way of getting extra attacks. Do you mean to say all attacks this round are at -2, or just this one attack?




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *3rd level*
> 
> *Indomitable archer's stance*
> stance
> ...




The maneuver is Supernatural? (IMHO it should be.) Interesting stance for an Assassin. Pretty strong compared to _bolt_, which is admittedly an odd duck.

You should spell out the specifics a bit more. Could a Monk get endless shuriken with this?

For some reason, I dislike this as a Stance. I feel this could be better implemented as a series of Boosts, which generated ammo of various qualities. I'll steal that idea immediately. 




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Unfurling steel blossom*
> strike
> 
> You fire a single arrow into the air, which separates and transforms in mid-air into a cloud of deadly projectiles.
> ...




See notes on area effect from Diamond Arrow above. Also, the level seems low for the potency.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Crimson arrow onslaught*
> strike
> 
> You attack in a blinding flurry, sending a flood of arrows at your targets.
> ...




IMHO way too strong for 3rd level.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *4th level*
> 
> *Manticore attack*
> strike
> ...




Interesting. I've been thinking of making some Strikes for my school which require Manyshot and allow you to make X attacks (for various X), but each attack must be at a different target. This looks good.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Unrelenting aim*
> boost
> 
> You track your foe, like a wolf stalking its prey. Despite his attempts to avoid your gaze, your arrows strike true.
> ...




Might want to limit this to ranged attacks?





			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Giant-felling volley*
> strike
> 
> Your arrows form a deadly thicket, hindering and bleeding the life out of your enemy.
> ...




Interesting mechanic. Might be better as a Boost which you can initiate during your full attack (like Fountain of Blood or Lion's Roar).





			
				hong said:
			
		

> *5th level*
> 
> *Perfected archer's stance*
> stance
> ...




Two benefits, one rather strong (threatening). Hmm.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Rebuke of the heavens*
> strike
> 
> Your arrows strike home like a great barrage, knocking your target down or forcing it to take cover.
> ...




Not bad, but I'm somehow troubled by Strikes that are just full attack plus. If the school is really focused on full attacks, I'd rather see it have fewer strikes and more boosts.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *6th level*
> 
> *Breath of the celestial dragon*
> strike
> ...




IMHO too strong.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Wrath of the earth dragon*
> strike
> 
> Your arrows multiply in mid-air and rain down on the earth, creating a forest of shafts. Seconds afterwards, the earth erupts in a blast of geomantic energy as the ki flow from your maneuver is released.
> ...




That is a *lot* of damage, and it's not even the primary benefit. I take it the difficult terrain is permanent?

Do big critters who occupy multiple squares take the damage multiple times?

Can you target squares that are occupied?




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *7th level*
> 
> *Tempest of thorns*
> strike
> ...




"Beaten zone"? So it's like _hail storm_ in that it's a cylinder effect with a 1 round duration?




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Greater manticore attack*
> strike
> 
> As per manticore attack, but you can make 3 attacks on each of 4 targets within a 120' cone.




Woah. 12 attacks total? That's really strong.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Arc of furious thunder*
> boost
> 
> You draw back and release your bowstring with blazing speed and power, sending arrows arcing on their way with tremendous energy.
> ...




Unless you're changing how Boosts work, it's not a free action. 

Seems like you could have introduced this earlier, before IL was at least 13. With the built in limit, this could easily be a 1st level Boost that defines the PC's style.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *8th level*
> 
> *Unquenchable fire stance*
> stance
> ...




Again, don't like this as a stance.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Unfurling heavenly blossom*
> strike
> 
> You fire a single arrow into the air. At the apex of its flight it multiplies into a cloud of deadly missiles, which rains doom on your foes.
> ...




Level and damage seem spot-on, but the attack mechanic still bugs me. Reflex save seems to make more sense IMHO.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Adamantine arrow flare*
> boost
> 
> As a swift action you gain 3 extra attacks at your full BAB. Your attacks are made at a -0, -5 and -10 penalty for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd attack respectively. After using this maneuver, you are fatigued for the rest of encounter.




The language here is odd. I think it could be better phrased: "As a Swift action you gain three extra attacks, the first at your highest attack bonus, the second at -5 and the last at -10."

Also, I don't think it needs the fatigue.




			
				hong said:
			
		

> *Superb rending volley*
> strike
> 
> Make a full ranged attack on your target. If all your shots hit, your target takes 2 points of Str damage per shot. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage.




How does this interact with boosts like AAF? Do the arrows from the boost need to hit for you to gain the benefit, or just the arrows from the full attack?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## hong (Apr 18, 2007)

Thanks, Nifft!




			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> I don't like that this is the only stance available at 1st level, and yet it's useless until you get 2nd level maneuvers.




? It'll work fine with unbending arrow; you don't get double 2d6, but you still get double base damage. It's like Rapid Shot but without the -2, and better ability to penetrate DR.



> Damage is low (compared to Rapid Shot); the stances seem required.




That's pretty much the idea. I might bump the +5 up a bit though. I'm also going to reduce the x3 damage from the 8th level stance to x2, as per your previous comments.




> Swift _true strike_. Humm. Seems strong for this level. Perhaps a bonus that scaled with Initiator Level instead?




It basically means guaranteed damage. Without the ability to convert that +20 into damage (which is one reason why the ranged Power Attack in the other school is 7th level) the bonus isn't as potent as it might otherwise be. I'm all for synergies, but this one is a little too obvious to go unchecked, especially with the x2 stances. Maneuvers also generally seem to be designed so that they don't scale with level, unlike spells, so I'm following that convention.




> An area attack with no saving throw, hmm. The mechanic is simple, but I'm not sure how balanced it is, since you could use an action point or a re-roll to effectively apply an attack to many foes. What about criticals?




I'm not too fussed about the area attack thing. A blast mage could do more damage, even with the saving throw, and a line is the least generally useful shape you can get. This strike is essentially there for you to showboat with, in fights that you'd probably win anyway. The critical is a good point: let's say you can't score crits or SA with this (or any of the other area-effect strikes).




> 4th level stances are rare. Is this targeted at a specific class or PrC progression?




No, but it's right in between the other stances, so it's a good place for it. 



> Cool. Anything fun happen if your attack roll was a crit?




No; should it?



> This really looks like a Strike to me rather than a Boost. If it were a Strike, it'd be balanced without the need for a check.




Well, the school is already heavy on the strikes. Plus, I'm basically after a pattern: strike for damage, stance for multiplier effect, boost for special effect. The current division between boosts and strikes is rather haphazard; I could easily see emerald razor being a boost instead of a strike, for instance.[/quote]



> Looks quite strong. Since it's a Counter, you could initiate it in response to a spell. Is your intent to negate the spells that would affect you during this maneuver's duration, or to simply suppress them?




The idea is for contingent mind blank, yes. It would suppress already-active effects; I'll add that to the description.



> Minimum duration 0 or 1?




Minimum 0.



> Cool. Might want to make this one a series, since incorporeal foes can crop up even among low CR undead. Or, if you keep the flat-footed and ranged-touch maneuvers as boosts, make the ghost touch thing a boost too.




Good idea.



> Two very potent effects. Consider separating them into two stances with no drawback.




As said above, I'll be dropping this to x2 and rejigging the stances in general.




> 3rd level to 8th level, seems quite a difference in level for the range benefit. (Still don't like the single roll thing. The mechanic for the Iron Heart are attack seems better IMHO, where an attack roll sets the Reflex save DC.)




I'm not really a fan of that. You can easily get attack rolls way beyond the range of saves; upwards of 40 isn't too hard for my current AOW swordsage, and the twinked barb regularly hits 50+ if he doesn't Power Attack. The scales just don't match.


----------



## hong (Apr 18, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Most adversaries will have either an armor or natural armor bonus, so I don't see a great need for this limitation, unless it works better against foes who have both?




Well, you never know when you're going to meet a monk or wraith. It's just a different way of giving out bonuses than yet another cover- or concealment-reducing effect.



> The penalty here does a lot to negate the benefit. I can see how it's an extension of Rapid Shot, but it seems inferior to the 1st level strike.




I'll reduce it to -2.




> Cool. I like this way of getting extra attacks. Do you mean to say all attacks this round are at -2, or just this one attack?




Just this one attack.




> The maneuver is Supernatural? (IMHO it should be.) Interesting stance for an Assassin. Pretty strong compared to _bolt_, which is admittedly an odd duck.




Yeah, Supernatural. I haven't yet made the effort to label all the Su maneuvers.



> You should spell out the specifics a bit more. Could a Monk get endless shuriken with this?




Don't see why not.... or darts, even if they're not technically ammunition.




> See notes on area effect from Diamond Arrow above. Also, the level seems low for the potency.




I was thinking it's a bit weak, actually. 10' burst is smaller than a fireball, and you only do normal arrow damage (say 1d8+4 at 5th level, vs 5d6 for the fireball). Yeah, you'll kill a lot of orcs, but those orcs probably weren't a major threat anyway.



> IMHO way too strong for 3rd level.




See above. 30' cone is maybe better than a 10' burst, but I doubt it's that much better. How about if I take out the ability to avoid hitting friendlies.




> Might want to limit this to ranged attacks?




Well, I couldn't really think of a good reason why, if you've spotted a chink in someone's armour, you couldn't whack it with a sword as opposed to a bow.  Think of it as synergy with the melee styles.



> Interesting mechanic. Might be better as a Boost which you can initiate during your full attack (like Fountain of Blood or Lion's Roar).




Good idea.



> Two benefits, one rather strong (threatening). Hmm.




I'd reduce it to 5' reach, but I'm not sure if it's really worth a 5th level stance then. IME archers almost never get hit with AoOs anyway, since they can just 5' step and shoot, or Tumble away and shoot.



> Not bad, but I'm somehow troubled by Strikes that are just full attack plus. If the school is really focused on full attacks, I'd rather see it have fewer strikes and more boosts.




You make a good point, and it's also another way of differentiating this school from the other one (which is strike-heavy).



> IMHO too strong.




See above comment about area-effect strikes. 1 attack per target, at 11th character level, might be 1d8+10; by this stage you've got cones of cold and flamestrikes flying around for 11d6 each.



> That is a *lot* of damage, and it's not even the primary benefit. I take it the difficult terrain is permanent?
> 
> Do big critters who occupy multiple squares take the damage multiple times?
> 
> Can you target squares that are occupied?




Hmm, hadn't thought of these things.  I'll think about it more.



> "Beaten zone"? So it's like _hail storm_ in that it's a cylinder effect with a 1 round duration?




Not quite a cylinder, more a general area effect like fireball that happens to persist for an entire round.




> Woah. 12 attacks total? That's really strong.




I don't think so; 12 attacks all on one guy would be awesome, but 3 attacks on 4 guys not so much. I generally discount attacks that spread your damage among multiple foes, because 1) these foes usually aren't going to be that good anyway; 2) best practice in D&D is to concentrate your fire.



> Unless you're changing how Boosts work, it's not a free action.
> 
> Seems like you could have introduced this earlier, before IL was at least 13. With the built in limit, this could easily be a 1st level Boost that defines the PC's style.




However, that leads to nastiness in conjunction with the other school....



> How does this interact with boosts like AAF? Do the arrows from the boost need to hit for you to gain the benefit, or just the arrows from the full attack?




I would say that all attacks you make on the target have to hit, and all your attacks have to be on that target. I'll reword the description to make it clearer.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 18, 2007)

Area effects...



			
				hong said:
			
		

> I was thinking it's a bit weak, actually. 10' burst is smaller than a fireball, and you only do normal arrow damage (say 1d8+4 at 5th level, vs 5d6 for the fireball). Yeah, you'll kill a lot of orcs, but those orcs probably weren't a major threat anyway.




My thinking on area effects is always:
1/ Don't do it sooner than a Sorcerer and/or Warlock could; and
2/ Make fighters fear Swarms just a little.

Unlike a Sorcerer, you're not limited to 5 uses per day, so you can use this area attack to "plink" away at a more dangerous foe. Invisible or displaced foes are a problem -- area effects help solve this problem.

I don't like the "role leak". My rules are to only start giving area damage to non-mages when the mage's time is better spent doing something else. 




			
				hong said:
			
		

> Well, I couldn't really think of a good reason why, if you've spotted a chink in someone's armour, you couldn't whack it with a sword as opposed to a bow.  Think of it as synergy with the melee styles.




Cool. Works for me. Also nice to justify why an archer can use some allegedly melee maneuvers.





			
				hong said:
			
		

> See above comment about area-effect strikes. 1 attack per target, at 11th character level, might be 1d8+10; by this stage you've got cones of cold and flamestrikes flying around for 11d6 each.




Right, but remember:
- SR
- Evasion
- Energy Resistance (and every damn thing seems to have some energy resistance)
- Limited use

DR and AC compensate for less than half that list, I'd argue, since you can swap arrow head material (for DR) more easily than you can swap energy type (for energy resistance). Unlimited use vs. high damage means different* tactics, for sure, but I don't think we're talking merely 1d8+10. Energy damage is popular, _flame arrow_ is available, and someone might even splurge and get a Collision enhanced bow.


*) And generally inferior. Winning in one round is half as dangerous as winning in two rounds. No argument there.



			
				hong said:
			
		

> I don't think so; 12 attacks all on one guy would be awesome, but 3 attacks on 4 guys not so much. I generally discount attacks that spread your damage among multiple foes, because 1) these foes usually aren't going to be that good anyway; 2) best practice in D&D is to concentrate your fire.




I'd limit them to a specific number of attacks within the area. In the average case, this shouldn't change the power level, but it will prevent abuse. The number could rise with Initiator Level.

Cheers, -- N


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## Nifft (Apr 20, 2007)

Area attacks...



			
				hong said:
			
		

> I'm not really a fan of that. You can easily get attack rolls way beyond the range of saves; upwards of 40 isn't too hard for my current AOW swordsage, and the twinked barb regularly hits 50+ if he doesn't Power Attack. The scales just don't match.




The more I think about this, the more I think you are right.

One attack roll against all targets means:
1/ Swarms are immune (eat it, fighter);
2/ Evasion need not apply; and
3/ Roll vs. resist scale is the same.

I don't like the idea of a critical hit, though -- and I don't like it being as effective as attacking without being an area effect. So, how about a penalty to the attack roll, and you don't ever crit -- you just deal normal damage?

Cheers, -- N


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## hong (Apr 25, 2007)

Okay, after further revisions, I've put the 2nd draft on my web page. Don't feel like typing it all out again, so here's the links instead:

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/diamond_arrow.htm
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/celestial_rain.htm


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## Nifft (Apr 25, 2007)

Any notes on specific changes to look at?

 -- N


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## hong (Apr 25, 2007)

I went back to x3 damage for the 8th level Diamond Arrow stance, but changed the 1st level one to let you reroll miss chances so it isn't entirely obsolete. The mid-level one now works like the others (FRA, lose Dex bonus to AC) but you add Wis to strike attack rolls stacking with Dex. Keeping pace with damage from iterative attacks is tough.

Reroll attack counter for Diamond Arrow is now 4th level (moment of fate). Rejigged a bunch of maneuver levels, actually.

New 2nd level Diamond Mind strike (spirit-felling shot) that lets you hit incorporeal creatures.

New counters for Celestial Rain that let you cleave at 1st level, give +20 vs sunder/disarm at 5th level. All up, there are now 4 maneuvers/level at all levels except 9th for both disciplines.

3rd level Celestial Rain stance now acts as ranged Power Attack with -/+5 cap, instead of generating arrows. Does not stack with 8th level boost, which is now -1/+2 PA, capped at -IL/+2xIL.

Field of quills now affects 8 squares, as does the higher-level version. Clarified how it works.

Tempest of thorns (beaten zone) now keeps going as long as you want, and you have arrows (10d6/rd). Affects a cylinder.

8th level Celestial Rain stance now creates arrows that bypass 5 points DR/hardness.

Area attack strikes are, by and large, unchanged. I doubt they'll steal a caster's thunder in the majority of situations. If they're weak enough to be killed instantly by unfurling steel blossom, there'll probably be enough of them that the wiz can still have fun with fireball.


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## hong (Apr 26, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> I don't like the idea of a critical hit, though -- and I don't like it being as effective as attacking without being an area effect. So, how about a penalty to the attack roll, and you don't ever crit -- you just deal normal damage?
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Hm, missed this. Already have the no-crit part; the penalty sounds good.


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## Nifft (Apr 26, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Hm, missed this. Already have the no-crit part; the penalty sounds good.




With a high penalty (-4? -6?), the 3rd level one might be balanced.

Then, at a higher level, when full attacks could be up to five arrows at the same target, an area attack with no penalty might be balanced.

How's that sound?

Thanks, -- N


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## hong (May 2, 2007)

Schools are now linked from the main page (see sig). I modified the ranger to use them, will probably post that at some stage.


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## Destil (May 10, 2007)

hong, Celestial Rain is an awesome school and I'm so stealing a bunch of these effects to use as psionic powers for the soulknife in my game (hurl the mindblade into the air, it splits and thousands of copies rain down).


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## Piratecat (May 10, 2007)

This is so good, I feel bad about editing your post in that meta thread.

Thanks for doing this!


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## Nifft (May 10, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> This is so good, I feel bad about editing your post in that meta thread.
> 
> Thanks for doing this!




Nobody reads Meta anyway.

Cheers, -- N


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## hong (May 12, 2007)

Destil said:
			
		

> hong, Celestial Rain is an awesome school and I'm so stealing a bunch of these effects to use as psionic powers for the soulknife in my game (hurl the mindblade into the air, it splits and thousands of copies rain down).




My alternative name for that one is Framerate Killing Attack. 


Archer/ranger so far:

As 3.5 ranger

Remove:

- Animal companion
- Combat styles
- Spells
- Endurance

Add:

- Balance, Bluff, Intimidate and Knowledge (martial lore) to skill list
- Diamond Arrow, Celestial Rain, Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon as allowed disciplines
- Maneuvers/stances as warblade progression
- Full-round action to refresh maneuvers


I might have another "bowsage" type later with a more explicitly mystical bent.


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## Piratecat (May 29, 2007)

So, I statted up a lvl 21 ranger cohort (using the above variant) whose maneuvers are all from diamond arrow, except for a few stances from celestial rain. I'm pretty sure it's too powerful. 

The 21st-22nd lvl PCs in my game aren't super-optimized, but this 21st lvl ranger I just made can do 342 points of damage in one shot (2d6 bane + [10 favored enemy + 4 avg. weapon dmg + 5 str + 3 misc + 5 magic + 40 strike] x5 stance & crit combined).  That's about 50% more than I'm comfortable with.  

Thoughts?


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## Piratecat (May 29, 2007)

Driving in to work, I wondered if I was looking at a worst case scenario. So I ran some numbers this morning. Please keep in mind that here I'm looking at a 20th level character, and I haven't given any thought to balance at lower levels. 


Take a 20th lvl variant ranger PC with a +5 str bonus, +5 magic bow, +3 misc damage due to misc feat bonuses or magic items, and a +10 to dmg vs. his worst foe. Assume rapid shot.

*Traditional full attack archery:*
- A normal arrow averages about 16 pts dmg, or 96 pts with a full attack when all hit. 
- A full attack with one crit does 107 pts. (Usually not all 6 will hit, though.)
- A normal arrow vs a ranger foe does 34 dmg, or 204 pts with a full attack when all hit. 
- A full attack with one crit does 216 pts. (Usually not all 6 will hit, though.)
- Only the crits trigger massive damage saves.

*Using Diamond Arrow with the 9th lvl strike and either a x2 or x3 stance:*
- A normal 9th lvl strike does 57 pts, 114 on a x2 stance, and 171 on a x3 stance.
- A normal 9th lvl strike vs a ranger foe does 67 pts, 134 on a x2 stance, and 201 on a x3 stance.
- A critical hit 9th lvl strike does 171 pts, 228 on a x2 stance, and 285 on a x3 stance.
- A critical hit 9th lvl strike vs a ranger foe does 201 pts, 268 on a x2 stance, and 335 on a x3 stance.
- Every successful shot triggers a massive damage save. 
- With no iterative attacks, the arrows are more likely to hit. 
- Barring feats, this 9th lvl maneuver can only be performed once per encounter; other maneuvers will do less damage.

My conclusion: those multipliers cause the biggest imbalance. 
And since I hate to point out problems without a possible solution...

My change would be making the x2 stances grant x1.5, and making the x3 stance grant x2. 

Okay - where'd I screw up in my analysis?


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## hong (May 29, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> So, I statted up a lvl 21 ranger cohort (using the above variant) whose maneuvers are all from diamond arrow, except for a few stances from celestial rain. I'm pretty sure it's too powerful.
> 
> The 21st-22nd lvl PCs in my game aren't super-optimized, but this 21st lvl ranger I just made can do 342 points of damage in one shot (2d6 bane + [10 favored enemy + 4 avg. weapon dmg + 5 str + 3 misc + 5 magic + 40 strike] x5 stance & crit combined).  That's about 50% more than I'm comfortable with.
> 
> Thoughts?




I tend to think of anything >20th level as beyond the realm of balance. 

However... where do you get the stance + crit + 40 damage combined? Sure, if the ranger rolls a 20 he gets a crit, but that isn't to be relied on. The auto-threat strike doesn't give a damage bonus, unlike the other strikes.


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## hong (May 29, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Driving in to work, I wondered if I was looking at a worst case scenario. So I ran some numbers this morning. Please keep in mind that here I'm looking at a 20th level character, and I haven't given any thought to balance at lower levels.
> 
> 
> Take a 20th lvl variant ranger PC with a +5 str bonus, +5 magic bow, +3 misc damage due to misc feat bonuses or magic items, and a +10 to dmg vs. his worst foe. Assume rapid shot.
> ...




IME, _the_ most common weapon enchantment by far is holy, which is another 2d6 (average 7) per hit on most monsters. This doesn't get multiplied by the Diamond Arrow stuff. So, by my calculations:

- Damage/hit on regular evil foe: 4.5 + 5 + 5 + 3 + 7 = 24.5
- Damage/hit on favoured enemy: 24.5 + 10 = 34.5

- Full attack on regular evil foe: 6 x 24.5 = 147
- Full attack on favoured enemy: 6 x 34.5 = 207

+40 damage, x3 Diamond Arrow shot on regular evil foe: (17.5 + 40) x 3 + 7 = 179.5
+40 damage, x3 Diamond Arrow shot on favoured enemy: (27.5 + 40) x 3 + 7 = 209.5

I would actually reduce the favoured enemy bonuses instead of/in addition to the Diamond Arrow bonuses, if only because I don't like stuff that's too situational. You end up with characters that are killers against one enemy type, and ineffectual (well, relatively speaking) against everyone else. The prime example of this kind of thing is sneak attack, which when it works is a killer, but too easily negated.


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## Piratecat (May 30, 2007)

Actually, I considered the holy bonus and excluded it for simplicity's sake. It's easier to compare apples and durian fruits without all the non-essential fluff. 

The favored enemy bonus is easy to tone down a bit, of course, as it could be +6/+6/+2/+2/+2 instead of +10/+2/+2/+2/+2. It's that multiplier that's chafing me. In my opinion, a class where average damage is the equivalent of one or more bonus attacks (147 vs 179 pts) is a problem. The problem is multiplied by the fact that iterative attacks are _much_ less likely to hit against many high level foes, at least the ones I've been using lately. 

Interestingly, if the x3 stance granted x2.5 instead, the damage works out to be almost identical to a full attack where every arrow hit.


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## hong (May 30, 2007)

Well, one of the things about the damage-multiplier mechanic is that it doesn't synergise well with most of the usual methods for increasing damage output. Eg sneak attack, bane damage, holy damage, energy damage etc work well for a machine-gun archer, but not so much if you fire just one shot. Now energy damage isn't usually that great because of resistances, but bane is one of the great (cheap) ways to boost damage, right after holy. You can usually count on any twink archer worth the name to have a few extra dice of damage.

The target I was aiming for was ~175 damage for a 9th level strike, ~130 for 8th level, 100 for 7th, 80 for 6th. This is based on my experiences with the swordsage in AOW and what I would consider achievable by a twinked machine-gun archer. While the swordsage was melee rather than ranged, I'm also discounting stuff like greater insightful strike and diamond nightmare blade (ouch).


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## Piratecat (May 30, 2007)

I wonder -- has anyone done a comparison against a swordsage's damage and a traditional warrior of some kind?  I'm curious how they stack up.


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## hong (May 30, 2007)

I was playing a swordsage alongside a fighter/barb in AOW. The barb was optimised for fighting Kyuss spawn, so damage figures might be a bit off -- but in general, he could out-damage me by a big margin if he got off a full attack. Most of our tactics centered around maneuvering him into position so he could get a big attack off, and then keeping him alive.

6 attacks with haste and Slashing Flurry from PHB2, +4 holy silver undeadbane Kyussbane greatsword, Weapon Spec, Melee Weapon Mastery, Str somewhere >30 normally and >35 when raging. About 250 damage on 6 hits against most things, and 350 against Kyuss creatures. If only 4 hit, then take it down to 160 and 240. More if he Power Attacks.


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## Piratecat (May 31, 2007)

As it turns out, this may be a moot issue for me -- the leader of the cohort in question would rather not change him radically. But I can always use the one I statted up as a bad guy...


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## hong (Jun 5, 2007)

Okay, I've made some changes to the maneuvers... in particular, reduced the 9th level Diamond Arrow strike to +30 damage, but given it a 1-rd stunning effect (save negates). Decided to leave favored enemy alone, because I don't want two versions of the class feature floating around.

Also changed rhythm of air and manticore attack (2nd and 5th level Celestial Rain strikes) so they're -2 to attacks.

Draft new archer class to complement the converted alt.ranger follows.


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## hong (Jun 5, 2007)

*Archer Adept*

I need a better name, but it'll do for now. Think of a combination of a Zen archer and machine-gun guy, with a slightly mystical bent a la the swordsage.


Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble.
Skill Points/Level: 4 + Int modifier (x4 at 1st level).

BAB: as cleric (level x3/4)
Good saves: Ref, Will
Maneuvers known/readied/stances: as swordsage (stances possibly tweaked to avoid known issues)


*Class abilities*

1st: Ranged weaponskill +1, Point Blank Shot, ranged aptitude, intuitive archery
2nd: -
3rd: -
4th Bonus feat
5th: Ranged weaponskill +3
6th: Agile barrage
7th: -
8th: Evasion
9th: Ranged weaponskill +5
10th: Bonus feat
11th: -
12th: Skill aptitude
13th: Ranged weaponskill +7
14th: Improved agile barrage
15th: -
16th: Bonus feat
17th: Ranged weaponskill +9
18th: Improved evasion
19th: -
20th: Ranged weaponskill +10, supreme agile barrage



Weapon and armour proficiency: The archer adept is proficient with all simple weapons, all light martial weapons, and all simple and martial ranged weapons. He is proficient with light armour and shields.

*Ranged Weaponskill:* At 1st level, the archer adept gains a +1 bonus to ranged attack rolls. This increases to +3 at 5th level, +5 at 9th level, +7 at 13th level, +9 at 17th level and +10 at 20th level. This bonus does not grant her extra iterative attacks, which are still calculated using her base attack bonus.

*Ranged Aptitude:* The archer adept can add her ranged weaponskill bonus to her base attack bonus for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for feats, prestige classes and other effects. She must still meet the other prerequisites, if any.

The archer adept can use ranged aptitude to qualify for any feat, prestige class or effect that is primarily to do with ranged weapon mastery. At a minimum, this includes any feat with the word "shot" in its name, and Weapon Focus and Improved Critical with a ranged weapon. Other feats, prestige classes and effects can be added at the DM's discretion.

For example, an archer adept could take Improved Precise Shot at 9th level, because her base attack bonus (+6) plus her ranged weaponskill (+5) meets the BAB +11 prerequisite for the feat. She could not do the same to qualify for the dwarven defender prestige class, because this is not primarily a ranged weapon prestige class.

*Intuitive Archery:* The archer adept gains a bonus to AC and ranged damage rolls equal to the lower of her levels in his class and her Wisdom bonus, if any. She gains the AC bonus only when wearing light or no armour, not using a shield, and carrying no more than a light load. For example, a 2nd level archer adept with 16 Wisdom (+3 bonus) would gain a +2 bonus to AC and ranged damage. At 3rd level and higher, her bonus would become +3.

*Stances and Maneuvers:* The archer adept can choose stances and maneuvers from the Celestial Rain and Diamond Arrow disciplines. She gains the listed stances and maneuvers known, and maneuvers readied per encounter. She can refresh her maneuvers by taking a full-round action.

*Bonus Feats:* The archer adept gains Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat at 1st level, if she does not have it already. She gains an additional bonus feat at 4th, 10th and 16th levels. She must meet the usual prerequisites for these feats, allowing for her ranged aptitude. She can choose her bonus feats from the following: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Manyshot, Mounted Archery, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes.

*Agile Barrage:* At 6th level, the archer adept gains the ability to make a Diamond Arrow or Celestial Rain strike as a standard action instead of a full-round action. If she does this, she takes a -4 penalty to all her attacks until the start of her next turn. (This ability does not affect those strikes that can already be made as standard actions.)

At 14th level, if the archer adept makes a Diamond Arow or Celestial Rain strike as a standard action, she only takes a -2 instead of a -4 penalty to attacks. Furthermore, she can make a full attack as a standard action instead of a full-round action. If she does this, she takes a -4 penalty to all her attacks until the start of her next turn.

At 20th level, the archer adept can make a Diamond Arrow or Celestial Rain strike as a standard action without taking a penalty to attacks. If she makes a full attack as a standard action, she only takes a -2 instead of a -4 penalty to attacks.

*Evasion:* At 8th level, the archer adept gains evasion. At 18th level, this becomes improved evasion.


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## hong (Jun 5, 2007)

Notes:

The ranged weaponskill thing is to allow different skill levels with melee and ranged weapons. IIRC Ambient's Three Arrows for the King had the idea first, way back in 2003, and the IH archer does a similar thing. The class ends up with +15 attack with melee, and +25 attack with ranged (but still only 3 iterative attacks, not 4). There are some problems with this mechanic, eg lower BAB means slower qualification for things like feats and PrCs, which I try to address.

The lower number of iterative attacks is more than canceled out by the big attack bonus. The idea is that you may shoot fewer arrows, but they will hit.

The agile barrage is because a player of mine with a huntmaster moved and attacked, meaning he couldn't use a strike (normally a FRA, remember), so I said I'd make a class that could move and strike so I could laugh.


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## avr (Jun 6, 2007)

Just a couple of ideas for more stances & manoeuvres. 

The dervishes ability to move 5' after each attack could easily be a celestial rain stance if restricted to ranged attacks. This'd be low level, possibly level 1? Also for celestial rain, I have this image of hunting out someone invisible with lots of arrows - perhaps a boost/counter which you could use after hitting someone concealed to allow subsequent attacks in that attack sequence to ignore the miss chance. I'm not sure what level would be right for this.

In LotR, Legolas sees the riders of Rohan a long way away & makes out details when Gimli only sees a blur on the horizon. He seems to have to concentrate to do so. This suggests to me an idea for a Diamond Arrow manoeuvre which could reduce range penalties to the spot skill. As a level 1 boost I'd have it halve range penalties.

Thoughts?


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## hong (Jun 6, 2007)

Ooh! New idea for Celestial Rain prestige class. Thanks, avr, if that IS your real acronym!

(I already have planned 2 Diamond Arrow PrCs, which are conversions of previous sniper/Zen archer-type PrCs I made.)


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## hong (Jun 11, 2007)

That archer adept class is now on my D&D page, with a less archery-specific name:

Marksman adept

Biggest change is the fixed attack bonus is now Wis-based, like damage; attack and damage bonus is limited to 1/2 class level. Tweaked some of the other benefits as well.

I'm still not entirely happy with it, but it'll do for now.


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## Aus_Snow (Jun 11, 2007)

Shouldn't 13th level have a BAB of +9?


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## hong (Jun 11, 2007)

Huh. Fixed.


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