# I have Heroes of Shadows



## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Hooray for Premiere Store release!

Anyway, I've always enjoyed these threads in the past, so this is my chance to give back.

First thing I want to throw out is some Vampire "facts", and other people can throw out their questions.

Vampires can use ki focus or holy symbol. They have a mix of melee, close and ranged attacks, all implement based targeting NADs. They get 3 at-wills, each targetting a different NAD (a will based 'pull closer' power, a fort based melee temp hitpoint gain, and a reflex based basic melee attack that pushes the enemy away). 

The have the ability to spend surges at parts of powers to improve them (deal more damage, attack a second enemy, etc). They have some survivability boons as they level (they gain temp hit points when they lose surges with their powers, get an extra surge at 13, get temp HP when they drain blood, etc). Also, some of their dailies can get extra surges for the vampire as well.


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## Vael (Apr 7, 2011)

One Vampire question: Are there any power choices in the class, or is everything preselected outside of stalker vs. beguiler at paragon?


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

Excellent information! Here are my burning questions:

What does Ki-Focus expertise and Holy Symbol expertise do?

On the vampire, can you clarify how the surge limitation is worded. Can they increase their surge value with durable for example? This is the one huge bugbear for me. If they can't, that's ouch and if they can that is probably okay. It's good to know they do eventually go to 3 surges :S


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks for the Vampire info!

Q: What stats do Binder Warlocks need? Cha and Int?


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

One last couple of questions before I can settle down and just see what everyone else asks, does the Shadow Hound (Nethermancer pet) have an MBA? Or does it still have the error where it is apparently speed 8 while charging, yet has no MBA to actually allow it to attack after a charge? Also is there a nice simple feat that negates necrotic resistance for everyone to use in general?


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## Neverfate (Apr 7, 2011)

Someone EXP Walter for me? I gotta spread rep.

Other than the Ki and Holy implement, are there any particular "stand out" feats? Let's be frank: are there any feats that will allow me to sparkle? 

*crosses finger*


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## Nemesis Destiny (Apr 7, 2011)

I am curious about the School Specialization benefits for the Necromancy and Nethermancy schools, Apprentice, Expert, and Master, if you please 

The rest, I can wait.


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## Mika (Apr 7, 2011)

What can you tell us about the Binder?  How is the class structured?  What is its basic schtick?


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## Drakhar (Apr 7, 2011)

What damage types does the Vampire do, and do they get any skill related powers or abilities?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

For the vampire class, you have choices for utility powers at 2 and 22, plus the chioce of paragon "specialization" of beguiler or stalker. Of course there are always skill powers and racial utilities, but otherwise, you only have 1 power per level outside of 2 and 22 (where you get 2 options each, sort of 'extra' beguiler/stalker options outside of the paragon path)

Ki Focus expertise is like staff expertise (i.e. it gives the bonus to hit to implement and weapon attacks that use the ki focus) Also it gives a +1 per tier bonus to damage against bloodied enemies.

Holy Symbol protects you from granting combat advantage for a turn unless you cause yourself to grant it (i.e. running or a power that makes you grant it, but flanking wouldn't give it, etc) when you attack with the holy symbol.

The vampire has 2 surges per day. Basically it lacks the + Con modifier, but is otherwise the same. So durable should be fine.

Binder is Cha based, and it's secondary is based on the pact choice. Int for Star (same as with hexblade) and Dex for Gloom pact (with the same stats for the hexblade gloom pact).

The Shadow Beast doesn't have an MBA (no circle around the sword), so that will probably be errata'd ... or it has to bull rush on a charge 

There are no feats that reduce resistance to necrotic.

Feats are pretty slim ... the previewed table is I think all of them. The only one other than the expertise that isn't sort of campaign specific (i.e. know your enemy) is Frozen Soul. It gives scaling cold resist (5 per tier) and a bonus to Will (+1 per tier). So its a possible alternative to the other will boosting feats, if cold resist is important.

Necro Apprentice: 2 thp when you hit with Necromacy power; Expert: +2 to Athletics and Endurance and Mastery: Ignore necrotic resistance. Your paragon path stuff is fun, your daily let's you summon an army of minions that all attack as a single standard as long as they are all in line of effect of you.

Nether Apprentice: Creatures hit with nethermancy power treat non-adjacent enemies as having concealment; Expert: +2 to Intimidate and Stealth; Mastery: If you have concealment against a creature, you have combat advantage against it. All your paragon path power's are Evard's X.

The Binder is a controller warlock. You pick a pact (gloom or star) and that determines your at-will/encounter powers, a lot like the warpriest. You have a generic at-will for all binders (available to human warlocks, hybrid warlocks, half-elves and paragon path mutliclassed into warlocks) that has a control effect (it deals damage if the person moves on their next turn as an EFFECT, in addition to normal damage on a hit). Gloom binder pact boon is a slide 3 for you or any creature in a burst 5, star pact boon makes invisible. Pact boons are like hexblade (you drop them, or it drops while adjacent to you). They get shadow walk, and instead of prime shot, they get shadow twist (+1 to ranged/area attack rolls if the enemy has no one adjacent to it). So it's a lot like the original PHB warlock, except with their controller leanings turned up and no striker mechanic tacked on. The encounter powers are available to PHB warlocks, but they have riders specific to binders of their pact (similar to the old pact specific riders). The dailies an utilities are available to all warlocks, and have no riders. They get a summon warlock's ally power at 9, Pact Lore at 4 (resistance 5, necro for gloom and psychic for star, plus darkvision for gloom or +2 to Arcana/Religion for Star). Their boon and summons get better at later levels.

Vampire damage is mostly untyped, but necrotic and psychic shows up a bit (his at-wills have one of each ... will = psychic, fort = necrotic, reflex = untyped). They have quite a few polymorph and charm powers. They have some utilities that boost skills (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, endurance, athletics). At level 8, they get a climb speed, and can climb on ceilings (but can't end your turn there without falling). Depending on your choice of paragon bloodline, you get bonuses to skills (beguiler is bluff and stealth, stalker is intimidate and nature). Some of the polymorph forms give bonuses to skills as well (stealth, perception, etc).


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

Firstly, thanks very much for the information. I'm really wondering what on earth is going on with the shadow hound, but I do wonder if the level 15 (?) version is better. I know I said I wouldn't ask anything else, but it occurs to me to ask if the Necromancer/Nethermancer get a level 5 daily. Or do their summon powers replace it?

I am very very disappointed about there not being a feat against necrotic. That was one thing I felt the book could have contributed very much. What a waste.

The vampire being able to get durable goes a long way to making the class viable. Hilariously though, that does mean a shade vampire gets 1 surge to start with. That's awful. Is there at least support for necrotic damage? I'm getting this awful feeling outside of these classes, other wizards for example might as well not bother taking necrotic powers from the book at all.

What are the feats in the book? The cold feats sounded interesting I guess. You said they are very "campaign specific", could you elaborate on what you mean by that?


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## chitzk0i (Apr 7, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> For the vampire class, you have choices for utility powers at 2 and 22, plus the chioce of paragon "specialization" of beguiler or stalker. Of course there are always skill powers and racial utilities, but otherwise, you only have 1 power per level outside of 2 and 22 (where you get 2 options each, sort of 'extra' beguiler/stalker options outside of the paragon path)




I think... you've worded this awkwardly.  There's been two daily 1's previewed I know of, so you must be able to pick at least that level.  What levels do vampires not have choices and what levels do they have a list of attack powers to choose from?

Also, how long the nethermancy apprentice feature last?  Until end of next turn?


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

chitzk0i said:


> I think... you've worded this awkwardly.  There's been two daily 1's previewed I know of, so you must be able to pick at least that level.  What levels do vampires not have choices and what levels do they have a list of attack powers to choose from?



His information is consistent with the previous preview that showed the level up chart. It showed fixed powers in most of the positions for the dailies on the chart and didn't look to have any choices. It seems amazingly linear.


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## chitzk0i (Apr 7, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> His information is consistent with the previous preview that showed the level up chart. It showed fixed powers in most of the positions for the dailies on the chart and didn't look to have any choices. It seems amazingly linear.




Oh.  It seems I misremembered...

but to clarify something else, does the Binder's Shadow Twist work if _you_ are adjacent to the enemy?  Otherwise, I don't see that pact boon triggering very often.


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## Neverfate (Apr 7, 2011)

Oh, so is the Executioner an exact replica of the DDI "completed class" from 4 months ago? 

Any major changes to Revenants?


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## squad (Apr 7, 2011)

*Thanks!*

Thanks for providing all this information!

I had a question or two about the gloom pact hexblade.  Is the pact weapon a light blade or a heavy blade?  Can you spoil any details about their at-will attack?


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## Mummolus (Apr 7, 2011)

Any new boons or interesting magic items?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Firstly, thanks very much for the information. I'm really wondering what on earth is going on with the shadow hound, but I do wonder if the level 15 (?) version is better. I know I said I wouldn't ask anything else, but it occurs to me to ask if the Necromancer/Nethermancer get a level 5 daily. Or do their summon powers replace it?




It gets better at level 19 [for some reason the level 19 versions don't even have the melee symbol for their at-will attack]. The shadow brute is large, has reach 2 that sort of grabs the target (it's immobilize save ends, but auto ends if the target ends his turn 2 squares away from the brute). 

The only powers in the book at 5/19 are the summons, but you don't have to take it. At 5, it counts as one spell. At level 19, you can give up one of your two spells at that level to instead get access to the better creature for your level 5 summon power. 



> I am very very disappointed about there not being a feat against necrotic. That was one thing I felt the book could have contributed very much. What a waste.
> 
> The vampire being able to get durable goes a long way to making the class viable. Hilariously though, that does mean a shade vampire gets 1 surge to start with. That's awful. Is there at least support for necrotic damage? I'm getting this awful feeling outside of these classes, other wizards for example might as well not bother taking necrotic powers from the book at all.




Featwise, it's just the ignore insubstantial feat that was previewed. 



> What are the feats in the book? The cold feats sounded interesting I guess. You said they are very "campaign specific", could you elaborate on what you mean by that?




Skipping over the revenant feats and expertise feats:

Ghostwise: 3 feats. Ghost wise: Bonuses against invisible or hidden enemies. Ghost Scorpion Strike: The ignore insubstantial feat. Spectral Step: The action point = insubstantial feat.

Winterkin: The feat I mentioned, and another that gives icewalk (ignore dificult terrain caused by ice/snow) and gives bonuses to endurance checks in cold weather and acrobatic checks on icy surfaces.

Lore of Moil: The reroll against undead feat that was previewed, bonus to shadow summoning that was previewed, getting thp when you shadow summon, and preventing healing when you hit. I think all four were previewed.

Finally, there is a Shadowborn "tree". Basically, you need to take Born of Shadow as a prereq for the other feats. Born of Shadow changes your origin to shadow, and gives +1 to saving throws in dim light or darkness. Shadow Blood imprves second wind, in dim light or darkness. Shadow Control improves defenses, in dim light or darkness. Shadow Mantle gives concealment when you kill a non-minion. Shadow Overflow lets you deal Con mod necro damage when you kill something with a MBA. Shadow Strider let's you ignore difficult terrain in ... you guessed i ... dim light or darkness.

The Shadowborn feats don't give feat bonuses, so if you know you are going into a "gloomy" campaign (or dungeon delving where everyone has low-light/darkvision; or you have means of lowering the lights, etc) they can be quite useful. Ditto that if you know you are going up against ghosts or undead, some other feats can be very good instead of hoping to get to use them.

=======================

As an aside, on the matter of necrotic powers:

In terms of wizards: 

There are a number of powers that deal necrotic + fire (mostly encounters). There are necromancy spells that deal no necrotic damage at all (one of the at-wills). Some of the necrotic powers don't do damage to undead anyway (dealing a seperate power instead, mostly dailies). So the number of straight necrotic damage powers are few (one at-will, a couple of encounters at certain levels, and some dailies ... actually the nethermancer dailies have necrotic damage without bonuses against undead, but they do have some interesting riders which still make them interesting.

Tere are lots of powers in the book that wizards can grab and not have to worry about necrotic resistance (or other classes for that matter). There are a few powers that do deal nothing but necro damage, so those are things they have to decide for themselves whether to risk it.


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

Hmm that's not that bad at all then to be honest! It's a shame for the Dark Pact Warlock, who could really have used an-anti necrotic power. Then again if things in the book don't use a lot of it, there really isn't any point to such a feat (except to some older classes...).

I have been discussing elements of this with a friend and I was wondering about the cold resistance and bonus to will feat. Does that have a stat requirement, or have Wizards within the space of a book made cold adapted useless (scaling 5/10/15 cold resistance)?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

chitzk0i said:


> I think... you've worded this awkwardly. There's been two daily 1's previewed I know of, so you must be able to pick at least that level. What levels do vampires not have choices and what levels do they have a list of attack powers to choose from?
> 
> Also, how long the nethermancy apprentice feature last? Until end of next turn?




Those were the only options, all other levels gives you a power (or additional uses of the bloodsucking power). You do get a different encounter power at a few levels, that let's you spend a surge to attack a second target or deal more damage to the single target.

The nethermancy stuff is end of next turn (most stuff I don't specify is).



chitzk0i said:


> Oh. It seems I misremembered...
> 
> but to clarify something else, does the Binder's Shadow Twist work if _you_ are adjacent to the enemy? Otherwise, I don't see that pact boon triggering very often.




It says no other creatures ... so you'll mostly be trying to trigger it yourself, or hoping your allies kill people that happen to come after you.



Neverfate said:


> Oh, so is the Executioner an exact replica of the DDI "completed class" from 4 months ago?
> 
> Any major changes to Revenants?




I'm pretty sure it's the same. Which is annoying because I was going to be playing one tonight had it been added to the OCB. 

Revenants are basically the same with their added stat option. I think the feats are the same, but I haven't checked.



squad said:


> Thanks for providing all this information!
> 
> I had a question or two about the gloom pact hexblade. Is the pact weapon a light blade or a heavy blade? Can you spoil any details about their at-will attack?




Funny enough, the gloom pact "blade" is a flail. The Scourge of Exquisite Agony (+2 1d10 with reach!) The at-will deals necro damage, slides the target a square and gives them a -2 penalty to attack rolls. And it's a MBA natch. Also the gloom/hex pact boon is gives insubstantial and phasing until end of next turn. 



Mummolus said:


> Any new boons or interesting magic items?




Nope. Only equipment in the book is some Shadowfell type stuff (Blessed Soil to protect tomb's, Ghoul Candle to see in the dark but not alert undead, Poison Kit for the Executioner Assassin, and a Raven's Feather that functions as a way of finding out if someone dies.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Hmm that's not that bad at all then to be honest! It's a shame for the Dark Pact Warlock, who could really have used an-anti necrotic power. Then again if things in the book don't use a lot of it, there really isn't any point to such a feat (except to some older classes...).
> 
> I have been discussing elements of this with a friend and I was wondering about the cold resistance and bonus to will feat. Does that have a stat requirement, or have Wizards within the space of a book made cold adapted useless (scaling 5/10/15 cold resistance)?




13 Con or 13 Wis.


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## Gladius Legis (Apr 7, 2011)

Could you give a quick runthrough of the Blackguard's stuff, please?

EDIT: Also, did the Executioner get any feat support?


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## Neverfate (Apr 7, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> I'm pretty sure it's the same. Which is annoying because I was going to be playing one tonight had it been added to the OCB. .




That is thoroughly depressing. Ossassin and now Executioner. RIP as you finally join Seeker, Runepriest, Artificer and (likely) the Vampire.


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

Hold on, I thought they added armor with necrotic resist and a weapon that ignored necrotic resist in the book as well (Both common items).

Or is it time to go and get me my crazy bucket?



> EDIT: Also, did the Executioner get any feat support?




No they did not, he confirmed some time ago that the feats in the book were just what was previewed before (EG very little sadly ).


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## Neverfate (Apr 7, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Hold on, I thought they added armor with necrotic resist and a weapon that ignored necrotic resist in the book as well (Both common items).




I think that's in the Shadowfell book. The Gloomwrought and beyond one.


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## squad (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks for the hexblade info!  Flail is an odd, and somewhat disappointing, choice.  Oh well . . .

One last question - what are the gloom and star pact at-wills like for the binder warlock?


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

It's really odd and very disappointing they would give him a flail and yet not include flail expertise in the book. Seriously, this book has made me facepalm so hard about numerous design decision in this I'm pretty sure I'm going to be permanently addled by the time I get my own copy.

Edit: Of course I see that it IS time to get me the crazy bucket.

Edit2: I am also quite confused why they reprinted the executioner in the book instead of a new build or something. I thought the executioner was supposed to be DDI, not a playtest until they released it into the book? Or again, is this me just needing the crazy bucket?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Gladius Legis said:


> Could you give a quick runthrough of the Blackguard's stuff, please?




I'll try to stick to stuff they didn't put in the preview stuff.

You get +Cha to dmg when you have combat advantage.

At level 1, you get a utility to give yourself concealment and thp as an encounter power. The at-will they all get is 1[W] + Str mod, and +2 dmg per enemy adjcent to you (max +8).

At 2, you get a specific utility, no choice. It gives thp, saving throw, bonus to defenses. Again, encounter power.

All the powers are weapon. You do have a holy symbol, but unless you pick dailies from older paladins, it doesn't come up. 

As for the Vices:

Domination - 1/round, if you have thp, deal Cha mod damage to yourself before making an attack roll. You get the damage you took as a bonus to the damage you deal.

Their at-will gains thp equal to Cha mod. At level 7 you gain extra benefit from your level 1 utility (extra thp). 

Fury - You get an extra +2 to dmg if you have combat advantage, +4 if you are bloodied, or you are adjacent to a bloodied creature.

Their at-will was spoiled (gives c/a on your next attack, regardless of target). At level 7 your level 1 utility gives you bonus to damage until end of next turn. 



squad said:


> One last question - what are the gloom and star pact at-wills like for the binder warlock?




Gloom - Close blast 5, up to two targets, psychic damage and pushes up to 2 squares.

Star pact - Range 10, single target, until end of next turn, all your allies 3 or more squares away from target cannot be seen. 



Aegeri said:


> It's really odd and very disappointing they would give him a flail and yet not include flail expertise in the book. Seriously, this book has made me facepalm so hard about numerous design decision in this I'm pretty sure I'm going to be permanently addled by the time I get my own copy.




The assumption is that you'd be probably using an implement expertise, since your dailies use implement only, and all weapon powers also have implement for hexblades.



> Edit: Of course I see that it IS time to get me the crazy bucket.
> 
> Edit2: I am also quite confused why they reprinted the executioner in the book instead of a new build or something. I thought the executioner was supposed to be DDI, not a playtest until they released it into the book? Or again, is this me just needing the crazy bucket?




It was supposed to be ... but when it was going to go into the builder, they suddenly said it was a playtest for HoS instead of DDI exclusive content.


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

The nice thing about the hexblade having both weapon/implement is normally you can get a choice of things like expertise. For example the Hexblades with light blades can get a lot out of light blade expertise (and in fact it's a really good option). Flail hexblades just don't get that choice, because there is no flail expertise and it makes the non-inclusion of it just silly. Especially as there are other builds/classes who wouldn't mind it either. Oh well.

The information on Blackguards is interesting, though I think the Fury Blackguard might be a bit better off unless the Domination Blackguards self damage applies for the whole round (Or just the next attack?).


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## Gladius Legis (Apr 7, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> All the powers are weapon. You do have a holy symbol, but unless you *pick dailies from older paladins*, it doesn't come up.



Ahh, I guess that answered my next question then. First daily at Lv. 5 a la the Cavalier?



> Their at-will was spoiled (gives c/a on your next attack, regardless of target). *Your level 1 at-will gives you bonus to damage until end of next turn*.



Hmm, I don't remember this from the Fury at-will that was previewed. Or is this something else entirely?


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

I think he's saying they have two at-wills, the one that was previewed which gives you CA and a second one, which gives you a bonus to damage. Personally the bonus to damage sounds like the way to go to me.


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## Gladius Legis (Apr 7, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> The information on Blackguards is interesting, though I think the Fury Blackguard might be a bit better off unless the Domination Blackguards self damage applies for the whole round (Or just the next attack?).



Looks like a balancing act here. The Fury at-will, uh, leaves a lot to be desired, but I agree he appears to have the better extra damage mechanic. Fury also seems to have the better Grim Blackguard encounter power (at least if you're going for raw damage).


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> The nice thing about the hexblade having both weapon/implement is normally you can get a choice of things like expertise. For example the Hexblades with light blades can get a lot out of light blade expertise (and in fact it's a really good option). Flail hexblades just don't get that choice, because there is no flail expertise and it makes the non-inclusion of it just silly. Especially as there are other builds/classes who wouldn't mind it either. Oh well.




It would have been nice. (They even suggest that flails are a good weapon for the blackguard). Maybe they'll put that in a DDI article (along with say, slayer/knight options for flails, etc).



> The information on Blackguards is interesting, though I think the Fury Blackguard might be a bit better off unless the Domination Blackguards self damage applies for the whole round (Or just the next attack?).




The self damage only applies to a single damage roll. On the other hand, outside of a few close burst attacks, most attacks are single targets. So, unless you are able to get c/a against multiple opponents and use a multi-target attack (or get O/A's against someone you have c/a against), you deal more damage with Domination, but the Fury deal more damage with multiple hits. (Also, Domination isn't all or nothing in terms of c/a, so if you have problems getting c/a, you still have the option of dealing extra damage). And, if nothing else, you get lots of ways to get thp, so it isn't hard to meet that part of the equation.



Gladius Legis said:


> Ahh, I guess that answered my next question then. First daily at Lv. 5 a la the Cavalier?




Yup, they get dailies at all the other correct levels, just miss 1 (where they get the encounter utility instead).



> Hmm, I don't remember this from the Fury at-will that was previewed. Or is this something else entirely?




That was a brainfart on my part. I editted the original post to what it should be. It's like the other vice I mentioned, it modifies the level 1 utility. I was just typing on autopilot and mentioned the at-will again instead.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Just wanted to throw this out there.

You know how PHB Paladin has a power to take damage on behalf of an ally? The Blackguard has a utility where, if they are going to drop to 0 HP, they take no damage and give that damage to an ally instead (and then give it 10 thp). I just think that's hilarious.


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

So I'm a little unclear on the blackguard: They get 1 at-will given to them by their vice and can pick a second at-will from whatever they want?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> So I'm a little unclear on the blackguard: They get 1 at-will given to them by their vice and can pick a second at-will from whatever they want?




Nope, all blackguards get the same 1st at-will, it deals extra damage for each adjacent enemy (+2 per, up to a max of +8), and their 2nd at-will is based on their vice.


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> Nope, all blackguards get the same 1st at-will, it deals extra damage for each adjacent enemy (+2 per, up to a max of +8), and their 2nd at-will is based on their vice.



Ah. That's a bit poop, but still that's not the worst thing ever.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Another FYI: The cleric stuff is (nearly) all implement based. So, if someone wanted a warpriest that wasn't focused on weapons, the death domain is for you (and thus is supports the laser cleric as well, since it's implement based wisdom attacks). In fact, some of the attack powers are useful for Strength based clerics, since they are straight effects, no rolling to hit, and they don't have a stat mod for damage [some do, but are still no attack roll powers]. And they are close burst/melee so that works for weapon wielders.

[One example, at 29, the cleric gets a melee touch daily where they spend a surge to deal bloodied value in necrotic damage, as an effect, no roll necessary.]

So, Con-based warlocks are still shafted, but there is a good ammount of stuff that can be taken by a STR cleric that doesn't have a great WIS.


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## Greatfrito (Apr 7, 2011)

Hm.  I'm not clear on one aspect of the vampire class.

Does it actually get more _uses_ of the "Blood Drinker" encounter power as it gains levels, or just the "spend a surge, deal more damage" power, or both?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Greatfrito said:


> Hm. I'm not clear on one aspect of the vampire class.
> 
> Does it actually get more _uses_ of the "Blood Drinker" encounter power as it gains levels, or just the "spend a surge, deal more damage" power, or both?




It gets both. At level 3 it gets Feral Assault (the surge spender). At 7 it gets a second Blood Drinker. If you take Vampire Noble, you get a 3rd use of Blood Drinker at 11. At 13, you get an extra surge per day. At 17, unleashed fury replaces feral assault. (it's basically the same attack with more damage). At 23, blood drinker is improved (you get temp hp as well as the surge).

So you get a max of 3 uses of blood drinker per encounter at 11, but it does require you take the paragon path, otherwise you only get 2. Your other encounter power is feral assault (or unleashed fury), the attack you can spend a surge on to either target a second creature or boost the damage against one.

-------------------------------

Anyway guys, that's it for tonight. I'll check to see if there are any new questions tommorow after I've gotten some sleep.


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## Gladius Legis (Apr 7, 2011)

About the Blackguard's Holy Smite/Power Strike equivalent that deals auto cold + necrotic and additional ongoing cold + necro if the attack hits, how does the damage on that power scale, if it does at all?


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## CelticMutt (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks for doing this.  


WalterKovacs said:


> Vampires can use ki focus or holy symbol. They have a mix of melee, close and ranged attacks, all implement based targeting NADs. They get 3 at-wills, each targetting a different NAD (a will based 'pull closer' power, a fort based melee temp hitpoint gain, and a reflex based basic melee attack that pushes the enemy away).



Do they get all three at-wills, or do they have to choose two out of three?



Aegeri said:


> Ah. That's a bit poop, but still that's not the worst thing ever.



Eh, it's just like the Cavaliers, which they're supposed to be the mirrors of.  I think you can retrain or choose older powers instead of the common at-will anyways since it has a level.  For Cavaliers at least - I'd assume the same goes for Blackguards.



WalterKovacs said:


> So, Con-based warlocks are still shafted, but there is a good ammount of  stuff that can be taken by a STR cleric that doesn't have a great  WIS.



I suspect taht if the Class Compendium for the Warlock ever gets done, it will be errata'ed so it's Cha prime for everything.



As for Flail Expertise, the Class Compendium article for Feats is sometime this month.  If they actually manage to hit their "deadline."  Maybe FE will appear there?


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## Aegeri (Apr 7, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> One example, at 29, the cleric gets a melee touch daily where they spend a surge to deal bloodied value in necrotic damage, as an effect, no roll necessary.



This was asked elsewhere but I've noticed this myself and am curious: Is that the targets bloodied value or is it the bloodied value of the creature? If that's the targets bloodied value then that is just _incredibly_ ridiculous on solos. But I imagine it's the warpriests bloodied value. A whopping amount of damage as an effect without a roll seems rather absurd though.

Also what are some of the Death domains general features and other dailies like?

Cheers, you are doing us all proud and keep up the good work (once you arise from your slumber that is).



			
				CelticMutt said:
			
		

> Do they get all three at-wills, or do they have to choose two out of three?



I'd say it would be all three from the way he put it. Given they get few choices and are pretty much straight on rails, being able to choose any NAD to attack would be a huge advantage (especially given their mechanics).


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## CelticMutt (Apr 7, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> I'd say it would be all three from the way he put it. Given they get few choices and are pretty much straight on rails, being able to choose any NAD to attack would be a huge advantage (especially given their mechanics).



It's certainly what I'm hoping for.  

Of course ... I'm also hoping that eventually Dragon will do at least new powers, if not a whole new build for the Vampire.  Preferably before Halloween.


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## mageta80 (Apr 7, 2011)

CelticMutt said:


> I suspect taht if the Class Compendium for the Warlock ever gets done, it will be errata'ed so it's Cha prime for everything.




I can understand your point of view, but I sure hope not that it will be the case. I like that my infernal warlock is naturally tough and durable, it's part of my fun.

Could be CHA primary and CON secondary, but in that case the AC will lack behind, and INT will still be important for all the riders and for damage at Epic. Unless a complete upheaval of the class, powers and feats is coming.

---

My questions for the very kind WalterKovacs:

Does the Blackguard has access to plate & heavy shield and does it have defender hit points and surges like the paladin?

Likewise, does the Binder has HP/Surges/Armor like a Warlock (12+Con HP, 5 by level, leather armor) or like a classic controller (10+Con HP, 4 by level, clothes armor)?

Does the encounter powers of the Binder have Miss/Effect lines (from the previews of DDXP they didn't !)

No return of "Intrinsic Nature" abilities for Summons?

Is there anywhere in the book a clarification about powers that have both the Implement and the Weapon keywords? 

Does the CHA mod to damage when getting CA for the Blackguard scales? (2+CHA mod at level 5, ...)

---

Thanks again WalterKovacs, this book looks nice so far. Particularly the Blackguard seems a blast to play . It will be a great and tough striker (but why will we play an Infernal Hexblade again? Sigh.)

Looking forward the new Paragon Paths. Oh, the vampire too.

But...

/rant on

...I can't understand why they publish another At-Will striker power that deals necro damage (the new gloom hexblade) without a feat or item that lower necro resistance AND in the same book made a Necromancer with a feature that ignores the same resistance & a cantrip to lower it.

For the sake of the Infernal/Gloom Hexblade, I demand the access of the cantrip NOW & FOR FREE. Or am I forced to Eldritch Blast my undead enemies to "death" because there is no wizard in my party?

That is madness. 

/rant off


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Apr 7, 2011)

CelticMutt said:


> I suspect taht if the Class Compendium for the Warlock ever gets done, it will be errata'ed so it's Cha prime for everything.




If so it'll be strange if the Cleric Class Compendium (*) doesn't errata the Str Cleric out of existence. The Con Warlock has had much more support than the Str Cleric ever has.

* Need to add a word beginning with "P" to the end of this, for acronyms sake.


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## the-golem (Apr 7, 2011)

Scholar & Brutalman said:


> If so it'll be strange if the Cleric Class Compendium (*) doesn't errata the Str Cleric out of existence. The Con Warlock has had much more support than the Str Cleric ever has.
> 
> * Need to add a word beginning with "P" to the end of this, for acronyms sake.




Primer?
Preview?
Poopdeck? 

..what, Clerics can be Pirates too! (oh, another one!)


----------



## Ranadiel (Apr 7, 2011)

Any changes to the Revenant's unnatural vitality? A DDXP char sheet suggested it was changed so the Revenant is dazed instead of being limited to one standard action while in subzero HP.


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## AntlerDruid (Apr 7, 2011)

Can you please tell me briefly what the new Binder Utility powers are for 2nd & 6th level is?

Do Binders get any other "summoning" powers except for the one at 9th & the paragon lvl one? 

Do Binders still only get Wands & Rods as implements?


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## Neonchameleon (Apr 7, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> So you get a max of 3 uses of blood drinker per encounter at 11, but it does require you take the paragon path, otherwise you only get 2. Your other encounter power is feral assault (or unleashed fury), the attack you can spend a surge on to either target a second creature or boost the damage against one.




... So from levels 3 to 6 your encounter powers leave you surge _neutral_?  Ouch!  That sucks.  (Pun intended).  Do you get to spend before or after rolling?


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## SFurtwangler (Apr 7, 2011)

If you have the time, I'd be curious to hear any details about the Dusk Oracle PP - especially what the features look like.

Edit: Also, this is my first post at en-world, and I tried to give XP to OP, but I don't know why it put a weird smiley face instead of a green dot like everyone else has in their comments. If I did something wrong, can someone give me a head's up.


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## Jhaelen (Apr 7, 2011)

CelticMutt said:


> I suspect taht if the Class Compendium for the Warlock ever gets done, it will be errata'ed so it's Cha prime for everything.



They could also follow the example of the Sorcerer-Pact Warlock and allow Cha & Con to be used interchangably.

To be honest, after seeing Themes, which simply always allow you to use your highest ability score for attack and damage, what exactly is the point of limiting class powers to only one ability score?

Is it only to prevent effective multiclassing? Or is it purely for flavour reasons?

Since Essentials introduced stuff like multiple power sources for builds and different roles for builds of the same class and in addition you can choose themes of any power source or role is there any good reason left why it would powers should be restricted in such a way?


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## erleni (Apr 7, 2011)

Is there some material useful for the Ossassin? EDs or PPs?


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## MrMyth (Apr 7, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> I am also quite confused why they reprinted the executioner in the book instead of a new build or something. I thought the executioner was supposed to be DDI, not a playtest until they released it into the book? Or again, is this me just needing the crazy bucket?




I get the sense that they did not originally plan to have the Executioner in the book. When they shifted it to a hardcover and decided to add more content, they grabbed the Executioner and dropped it in there. 

Which kinda sucks for DDI subscribers if it is just repeated content, and sucks even more if they _did _update it, and the December Executioner ("the actual final version") turns out to still not have been complete.


----------



## gyor (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks for the info. What kind of level 29 daily does the blackguard get? Does the blackguard get any class features at paragon and epic that aren't from grim blackguard? Would you say that blackguards are competitive amoung other strikers when it comes to dealing damage?


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## Kinneus (Apr 7, 2011)

I'm buying this book solely for the Necromancer. I don't care for Essentials-style classes, but Necromancers are simply my favorite standard fantasy trope, so I'm going to play one no matter how crappy and option-barren it is, dagnabbit.

With that said... how crappy is it? How option-barren? They're a wizard sub-specialty, so I assume they're still Controllers. Do they have a discernible secondary role, like Striker or Leader? What are its powers like? What is your (admitedly subjective) opinion on their viability?


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Apr 7, 2011)

Doe the Starpact Binder get a bunch of radiant damage powers?  I'm guessing this subclass build probably has a lot of stuff that an original Starpact Warlock will probably want to completely avoid any con-based powers.

Out of curiosity what do the other Evard's Powers do?


----------



## kilamanjaro (Apr 7, 2011)

Is the shade's racial power still a standard action?


----------



## Rokku (Apr 7, 2011)

Is there anything Defender-related in the book?  We've got two new strikers, a new option for a preexisting striker, a new controller, and a new option for a preexisting leader, but I haven't heard about anything defendery.


----------



## Kerrus (Apr 7, 2011)

What are the racial specific feats  you mentioned? What do they do?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Gladius Legis said:


> About the Blackguard's Holy Smite/Power Strike equivalent that deals auto cold + necrotic and additional ongoing cold + necro if the attack hits, how does the damage on that power scale, if it does at all?




Dread Smite does flat damage (hit or miss) and ongoing (hit). At 7 the flat damage increases by 2. At 17 and 27, the flat damage increases by 3 each time in addition to the ongoing going up by 5 each time. Also, it uses CHA mod, so it also scales that way.



Aegeri said:


> This was asked elsewhere but I've noticed this myself and am curious: Is that the targets bloodied value or is it the bloodied value of the creature? If that's the targets bloodied value then that is just _incredibly_ ridiculous on solos. But I imagine it's the warpriests bloodied value. A whopping amount of damage as an effect without a roll seems rather absurd though.




The cleric's.



> Also what are some of the Death domains general features and other dailies like?




Death Domain: At level 1, you get resist necrotic 5; when you spend a surge you get 5 thp per tier and a suite of powers. One at-will attack is a melee 1 implement attack that does necrotic and cold, as an effect it reduces the targets defenses by 2 for the next attack against it. The other at-will attack is a melee 1 implement attack that does psychic damage, as an effect it reduces the targets damage rolls by Con mod for a turn. You get a level 1 utility encounter power that let's you know if any bloodied enemies in a close bust 3 have HP lower than your surge value ... which can come in handy for some death domain powers. Your Channel Divinity let's you give yourself or an ally, if they are bloodied, 5 thp per tier.

Starting at 5, when an enemy drops within 5 squares of you, you can use healing word as an immediate reaction. Starting at 10, you can use a free action to deal Con mod necro damage to an ajacanent bloodied enemy.

For daily powers: You get Inflict Wounds at 1 (auto "hit" touch attack, deals 3d6+wis necro damage. They spoiled the 5 [when the target dies, the enemies rises as a dominated minion]. 9 has two options. One is a weapon attack and the enemy keeps taking psychic damage based on the number of your allies adjacent to it, that only ends if it ends it turns with none of your allies adjacent. Doesn't seem to count you among your allies. The other is a blast that creates an encounter long zone where enemies provide c/a.

At 15 you get Drain Life, which is basically an upgraded version of Inflict Wounds. 19 is an upgraded version of 5. 25 has upgraded versions of the 9s. The weapon attack allows allies to make opportunity attacks when the enemy attacks anyone but them. The blast creates a sustainable zone that weakens enemies and gives thp to allies. The 29, Ravage, I already mentioned, and is basically the capstone version of Inflict Wounds/Drain Life.

So, they did make it where you can replace a power with an "improved" version of the same power.



> I'd say it would be all three from the way he put it. Given they get few choices and are pretty much straight on rails, being able to choose any NAD to attack would be a huge advantage (especially given their mechanics).




Yup, they get all three. Each seems like a sort of iconic power, one to lure, one to 'sip', and one to show the super strength a bit with a powerful shove.



mageta80 said:


> My questions for the very kind WalterKovacs:
> 
> Does the Blackguard has access to plate & heavy shield and does it have defender hit points and surges like the paladin?




Yup. They get 10+ surges, 6 hp per level, plate and heavy shield, +1 to all NADs, etc ... they are going to be a very well defended striker.



> Likewise, does the Binder has HP/Surges/Armor like a Warlock (12+Con HP, 5 by level, leather armor) or like a classic controller (10+Con HP, 4 by level, clothes armor)?




He gets the warlock package you've listed. 



> Does the encounter powers of the Binder have Miss/Effect lines (from the previews of DDXP they didn't !)




There are a couple powers with effect lines (like creating zones for a turn when you do blasts), but mostly they are all or nothing for hit/miss.



> No return of "Intrinsic Nature" abilities for Summons?




It seems they all have opportunity actions instead. Intrinsic Nature was more a primal summon thing. 



> Is there anywhere in the book a clarification about powers that have both the Implement and the Weapon keywords?




Not that I can see. Also, the hexblade weapon powers don't actually have the implement keyword in this book ... so I'm not sure what is up with that.



> Does the CHA mod to damage when getting CA for the Blackguard scales? (2+CHA mod at level 5, ...)




Nope, and neither does the vice stuff. 



Ranadiel said:


> Any changes to the Revenant's unnatural vitality? A DDXP char sheet suggested it was changed so the Revenant is dazed instead of being limited to one standard action while in subzero HP.




That is correct. You can choose to be dazed instead of unconsicous until you fail a death saving throw.



Askanipsion said:


> Can you please tell me briefly what the new Binder Utility powers are for 2nd & 6th level is?
> 
> Do Binders get any other "summoning" powers except for the one at 9th & the paragon lvl one?




At 2, you can take Shade Twin, a daily. It lets you mimic a creature in a close burst 10. In addition to the normal stuff (bonus to bluff to mimic them) the target takes half of any damage you take as psychic feedback, but when you take damage, roll a d20, on a 10+ the effect auto ends. Otherwise it's sustainable. The other option is Spectral Fade, an encounter invisibility until end of turn.

At 6 you can take Shadow Ride. It's an encounter shift 2, you can move through enemy spaces, and you can end a turn in their space. If you do, you move with the enemy without provoking OAs. You pop out of the enemy at the start of your next turn. You can also grab Walk Through Darkness, a daily that gives you 10 shift with phasing and insubstantial.

You only get the summoning of your ally (9/25). 



> Do Binders still only get Wands & Rods as implements?




Yup.



Neonchameleon said:


> ... So from levels 3 to 6 your encounter powers leave you surge _neutral_? Ouch! That sucks. (Pun intended). Do you get to spend before or after rolling?




You have to spend when you use the power, so before you roll. So, it's risky as a single target, but using it to attack multiple targets (2 for the first power, all adjacent for the second) may be more enticing.



SFurtwangler said:


> If you have the time, I'd be curious to hear any details about the Dusk Oracle PP - especially what the features look like.




Dusk Oracle is very cool.

You need Insight and Religion. The bonuses are based on CHA or WIS.

You can ask any intelligent creature's corpse one question they have to answer truthfully (although some will be cryptic) based on what they knew in life. When you spend an action point, your attack targets the enemies lowest NAD. If you grant your ally an attack with the AP (i.e., you are a warlord) you can give that benefit to your ally instead.

Your encounter power is a no action improvement to a basic attack or at-will. It let's you target their lowest NAD nd deals extra necro/cold damage and slows.

Your utility is a daily that gives you stat mod bonus to a skill. You can sustain minor or sustain standard to pick a new skill.

At 16, you reduce opponent's resistances against your attacks by 10 if you have c/a.

At 20, you get a ranged attack that is like a spectral attack. (you attack all three nads. Hit once: damage. Hit twice: target gets -2 to hit (s/e). Hit thrice: weakened ane -2 to hit (s/e both).



erleni said:


> Is there some material useful for the Ossassin? EDs or PPs?




Outside of utilities and ki focus expertise.

Dusk Oracle, with the right skills, can be fun. 

Shadow Dancer is probably the best example, as Ossassin has an at-will teleport and stealth, so it auto-qualifies.

You gain C/A on your next attack whenever you teleport. Action point let's you teleport 5 before or after the attack. Your encounter is a bit weak ... you teleport and make a basic attack (although it could be ranged basic) and if you hit, the target is teleported and dazed. Your utility chooses a target that you can either teleport to as a move and teleport away from as a minor. 

At 16, if you start a turn hidden to a creature at the start of it's turn, you are invisible to it until the end of it's turn. Your daily is a move action where you shift your speed, creating an encounter long zone. It deals cold damage to any enemy in the zone or adjacent to it when you create it. The zone is totaly obscured for enemies, and if an enemy ends his turn in or adjacent gets 10 ongoing cold (s/e). So, it's like a wall, but you design it by shifting and don't have to sustain it.

There is also the veiled master. You need Stealth and Perception.

Once per round you can douse a non-magic light source up to the size of a small campfire and it can't be relit during the encounter. Action point for melee or close weapon attack, the first target hit is blinded until end of next turn.

Your encounter power is str or dex weapon attack, creates a zone close burst 2 of total obscure and block lines of sight to all but you. 12 Utility is an encounter stance to get blindsight 3 and immunity to gaze attacks, but you can't see creatures/objects outside the blindsight's range.

At 16 you only take -2 instead of -5 to attack enemies you can't see. Your daily is like the encounter, but you attack all enemies in the close burst 2, and you can sustain the zone.

None of the epic destinies seem particularly good for Ossassins.



gyor said:


> Thanks for the info. What kind of level 29 daily does the blackguard get? Does the blackguard get any class features at paragon and epic that aren't from grim blackguard? Would you say that blackguards are competitive amoung other strikers when it comes to dealing damage?




At 29 they get Avatar of Vice. 5W, half on a miss, effect you get list of benefits for the encounter. CHA mod bonus necro damage on all attacks. Once per turn, when you hit either gain 10 thp, or if the attack already gives thp, gain 5 more thp. If you start a turn with no uses left of drad smite, roll a d6. Recharge on a 5 or 6.

At 13, they get an extra dread smite. At 17, allies that spend a healing surge adjacent to you get Cha mod thp. At 23, your level 1 utility power also let's you teleport 5 squares. At 27 you get resist 20 cold and necrotic.

I'm not sure how well they are for dealing damage. You do have the option of dropping the shield for a two-handed weapon ... so there is a bit of a toughness/damage trade off in the class. They are a VERY tough class for a striker, with defender HP and equipment, PLUS thp ... so comparable to a barbarian I guess. They do get comparable damage bonuses to a slayer, but it does require working for it (combat advantage/damaging yourself) and they have dailies to supplement their damage, which slayers don't, and they have some further damage boosting options in their utilities. I would really think that barbarian is probably the best example, they even have Avatar dailies that are kind of like rages.



Kinneus said:


> I'm buying this book solely for the Necromancer. I don't care for Essentials-style classes, but Necromancers are simply my favorite standard fantasy trope, so I'm going to play one no matter how crappy and option-barren it is, dagnabbit.
> 
> With that said... how crappy is it? How option-barren? They're a wizard sub-specialty, so I assume they're still Controllers. Do they have a discernible secondary role, like Striker or Leader? What are its powers like? What is your (admitedly subjective) opinion on their viability?




Option barren? Well, you get 2 at-wills (the one that hasn' been spoiled does untyped damage, and creates difficult terrain for enemies around the target of the attack. For dailies, utilities and encounters, there are two options at every level, one necro, one nether. So, you basically pick 2 schools and pick 1 power for each school. 

As far as roles go, they are good at controller and I would say a leader secondary. You have some powers to give yourself or allies thp, actual hp, saving throw, and you impose penalties to hit on opponent's, give them vulnerability, etc ... which is like giving allies bonuses to defenses and damage. Your skeleton is like a defender (their attack prevents shifting, and their OA has a +2 to hit and damage). The Wraith weakens enemies, and bloodied creatures in his aura grant c/a and creatures that end in the aura and adjacent to you take damage.

In terms of powers: They have immobilization, daze, hindering terrain (i.e. zones enemies don't want to be in), slow. The "if opponent is undead" powers generally deal no damage, and instead let you dominate them (or at level one, force them to run away and get dazeds).

They seem pretty cool. They are a mix or control and leader, with the ability to summon defenders.



kilamanjaro said:


> Is the shade's racial power still a standard action?




Yup



Kobold Avenger said:


> Doe the Starpact Binder get a bunch of radiant damage powers? I'm guessing this subclass build probably has a lot of stuff that an original Starpact Warlock will probably want to completely avoid any con-based powers.




The star pact binder powers have riders that only apply to then (i.e. Binder [Starpact]) so that star pact 'normal' warlocks don't get the rider. Also, as a shadow 'based' pact, it's damage is cold and psychic, no radiant. The flavor is the Far Realm is the "dark between the stars".



> Out of curiosity what do the other Evard's Powers do?




Evard's Wrenching Darkness. Encounter 11: Single target ranged, slides and immobilizes and psychic damage on a hit. As an effect, each enemy within 2 squares of the target is pushed 2 squares away from it, and grants C/A until start of your next turn.

Evard's All-Seeing Worm, daily utilty 12: Targe ally takes necro damage equal toint mod, until end of encounter, as long as you have lineof effect to the target, you can see as if you were both people and can attack from either square.

Evard's Black Gate, Daily 20: Wall, squares are totaly obscured. Inside the wall, creatures are dazed and can only attack adjacent creatures. The wall is sustain minor, and has a standard at-will attack. Close burst 5 centered on a square in the wall, all enemies in burst, damages and pulls. If pulled intowall, restrained save ends.


----------



## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Rokku said:


> Is there anything Defender-related in the book? We've got two new strikers, a new option for a preexisting striker, a new controller, and a new option for a preexisting leader, but I haven't heard about anything defendery.




Other than some powers available for paladin's (dailies and utilities for cavalier's, and at-wills as well for straight paly's) there is a paragon options that can be good for defenders.

Dark Watcher: 11 feature let's you deal no damage on an OA to instead weaken the enemy until end of your next turn. Your encounter power let's you blind an enemy that attacks your allies. Your utility let's you teleport next to a dying ally and let them spend a surge. 16 gives you a fourth death save fail before you die, and grants allies bonuses to their death saves. Your 20 whammies an enemy (allies get bonus to hit and damage, enemy takes a penalty to it's attacks). Only requirement is good/lawful good alignment, and it's good for leaders and defenders.

The Epic Destinies are all pretty good for defenders (mostly making you tougher, but there are a few ways to protect your allies in there as well). 



Kerrus said:


> What are the racial specific feats you mentioned? What do they do?




Revenant feats:

Dark Feasting : Get thp equal to damage dealt with dark reaping racial power

Empowered Reaping : Bonus damage for dark reaping racial power

Past Soul : Gain the racial power for the race you picked for Past Life. You can either use it or dark reaping during an encounter, not both.


----------



## ShinQuickMan (Apr 7, 2011)

I've some questions about the Death Priest's lv5 and lv 19 dailies. Is the level 5 daily any different from the previewed version? And what does the level 19 version grant you?

Another thing. Are shades still as bad as they were in the preview? More specifically, do they still lack a racial encounter power that actually helps in combat?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

ShinQuickMan said:


> I've some questions about the Death Priest's lv5 and lv 19 dailies. Is the level 5 daily any different from the previewed version? And what does the level 19 version grant you?
> 
> Another thing. Are shades still as bad as they were in the preview? More specifically, do they still lack a racial encounter power that actually helps in combat?




I'm prety sure the level 5 is the one previewed, single target, damage, half on a miss, first time the target dies it rises as a minion dominated by the cleric with -2 to defenses, counts as an ally, etc. 19 is a blast, deals damage, etc. Creates a zone, the first enemy that dies in the zone is raised as a minion, etc.

Shades are unchanged, unless I miss something. There are more utility power options, but their racial is still a standard action.


----------



## SFurtwangler (Apr 7, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> Dusk Oracle is very cool.




Thanks for taking the time to look up my request. The Dusk Oracle DOES look very cool. I might be taking that one. Once I get to 10 posts and enworld says I am a real-boy, I'll come back and try giving XP again.


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## gyor (Apr 7, 2011)

In a word awesome. I'd give more xp but I can't. The blackguard sounds like the evil love child of Slayer, barbarian, and cavaliers that happened to be born in the shadowfell. Thank you. Does the blackguard get any other summoning powers then servant of vice? What is his 22 utility?


----------



## mageta80 (Apr 7, 2011)

gyor said:


> In a word awesome. I'd give more xp but I can't.




This, totally.
Thanks for all the stuff!



WalterKovacs said:


> Not that I can see. Also, the hexblade weapon powers don't actually have the implement keyword in this book ... so I'm not sure what is up with that.




Whaaaaaaaat ?!?

Ok, now I'm lost... Did they change the whole rule for the Pact Weapon?

I'm thinking of this part:

"When you use a power associated with your pact weapon and the power has both the weapon and the implement keyword, you are considered to be wielding both your pact weapon and your implement for the purpose of feats and other game elements."

Is it still there, or is it a typo?


----------



## twilsemail (Apr 7, 2011)

Walter, anything you feel like sharing on the veiled master would be appreciated.  I'm working on spreading the XP love elsewhere so I can come back to this thread and reward you all proper-like.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

gyor said:


> In a word awesome. I'd give more xp but I can't. The blackguard sounds like the evil love child of Slayer, barbarian, and cavaliers that happened to be born in the shadowfell. Thank you. Does the blackguard get any other summoning powers then servant of vice? What is his 22 utility?




The only summon is the servant of Vice.

22 You get a utilty based on Vice. For Domination it's Dark Grace, a daily aura 1. If you or an all in the aura hit an enemy, that person gets 5 thp. If an ally in the aura spend a surge, they ony get half the hp, and you get the rest.

For Fury it's a daily aura 2. Creatures other than you in the aura grant c/a. You and allies in aura get damage bonus equal to 2 times the number of enemies in the aura.



twilsemail said:


> Walter, anything you feel like sharing on the veiled master would be appreciated. I'm working on spreading the XP love elsewhere so I can come back to this thread and reward you all proper-like.




You need Stealth and Perception.

Once per round you can douse a non-magic light source up to the size of a small campfire and it can't be relit during the encounter. Action point for melee or close weapon attack, the first target hit is blinded until end of next turn.

Your encounter power is str or dex weapon attack, creates a zone close burst 2 of total obscure and block lines of sight to all but you. 12 Utility is an encounter stance to get blindsight 3 and immunity to gaze attacks, but you can't see creatures/objects outside the blindsight's range.

At 16 you only take -2 instead of -5 to attack enemies you can't see. Your daily is like the encounter, but you attack all enemies in the close burst 2, and you can sustain the zone.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

Just another bit of FYI. I was checking the Executioner assassin again, and there WAS an update.

Quick Swap allows you to draw or stow a weapon AND draw another weapon as a single free action, instead of just one of the other. Considering you may be switching between two weapons and a two-handed weapon (to make use of two-weapon defense, but also garotte or blowgun), it's useful. So, you can go to no weapons to both weapons out or swap one weapon for another as a free action, or if you include a minor action in the mix, you can switch between two weapons in hand, and a third two-handed weapon in hand without having to drop anything. Originally I was planning on grabbing Master At Arms to be able to do that, but now I can just go with Ki Focus expertise and thus take the implement based poison attacks.


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## SFurtwangler (Apr 7, 2011)

Are there more than the one wizard at will for either necromancy or nethermancy? One of WotC's previews showed a necrotic one and the D&D XP character had a nethermancy one, but I am curious if there are more keyworded at-wills introduced than just those two (for example, there are a few at-wills with the Enchantment keyword to pick from).


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

SFurtwangler said:


> Are there more than the one wizard at will for either necromancy or nethermancy? One of WotC's previews showed a necrotic one and the D&D XP character had a nethermancy one, but I am curious if there are more keyworded at-wills introduced than just those two (for example, there are a few at-wills with the Enchantment keyword to pick from).




There are four at-will attacks, 2 for each of the new schools. I've mentioned the other necromancer one early (deals untyped damage, creates difficult terrain for enemies). The extra nethermancer one is Unravelling dart. Ranged attack, can target 2 creatures. Does 1d4 + Int damage, and is considered to be any damage type(s) the creature is vulnerable to. If they have no vulnerability, it deals Wis mod extra damage instead.

As far as "old schools" are concerned: There are a few fire based wizard powers, but otherwise nothing in the wizard section for them. For implement mastery: There is a conjuration utiliy at 2 that doesn't require a schoo mastery.There are a number of save ends effects on powers for orbizards. 

There are two paragon paths keyed of illusion powers (one for any arcane, one just for wizards) that is useful for illusionist school wizards and orb of deception wizards alike.


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## hbnetto (Apr 7, 2011)

And what about vampire? So bad as it seems?


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## Dice4Hire (Apr 7, 2011)

10 more days for me to decide it I am getting this book, and I have no idea if I will.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

hbnetto said:


> And what about vampire? So bad as it seems?




It's going to have to be played to really see how good or bad probably. Of the stuff that was previewed, there was quite a bit left out ...

If you mean bad in terms of lack of choice, definitely. Outside of a couple of levels for utility powers, and your branching paragon path, you get no options in class. (There are always skill powers, etc).

If you mean being effective? It's questionable. You don't want to fall unconcious ... if you can stay upright, you have not only regeneration, but means of getting thp at-will. You have oher healing surges outside of your encounter power (at 9, for example, you have a dominating gaze. It's a reliable attack that dominates (save ends), but if the target is adjacent, you can end the domination by taking a surge and dealing your surge value in damage to the target. Similaly, if you need to run away to regen, your utilities provide polymorphs like becoming a bat, or gaseous form, etc. Your damage output is pretty good ... you get something similar to a slayer's damage bonus (although it's all implement powers), and you have some dailies and enconters with quite a bit of damage dice. Your level 3 encounter, for example, does 2d12+dex, and if you spend a surge either targets two people, or deals another 2d8 to the single target. Your level 5 daily is like a rage, as it gives you an encounter long boost to attack rolls and damage.

Of course, I've been playing an Ossassin, the dex/cha build, and their fragility hasn't come up that often either. Now, the Vampire might appreciate a Shaman or Artificer more, what with the surgeless healing options, but  don'tsee it as bad. It may not be everyone, but it doesn't seem as bad as some have feared. As long as you hit an enemy with a melee at-will attack at least once each fight ... you effectively have 2 surges, plus one per encounter, probably don't need to spend surges outside of combat, that number increases over time (you get additional uses of the encounter power, you get an extra surge per day at 13, you et a daily that can also get a bonus surge, etc). At paragon tier, the vamp can gain 3 surges per encounter, and get another once per day, since all the encounters only go off when you hit, you can't waste it unless you don't use it during the encounter (in which case the encounter is over, and you can regen and steal someone's surge to get to max) and the daily is reliable. It may take multiple tries, but you can eventually "hit" with all your surge stealers given enough time. Unless the group is routinely using up 4 or 5 surges in a single fight, the vampire should be able to keep pace.


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## SFurtwangler (Apr 7, 2011)

The "Legioncaller of Moil" feat was previewed, which gives a boost to creatures summoned with shadow summoning powers. Are there enough such powers to make that feat worthwhile? The only two I knew of were the previewed dailies, and you said earlier that the level 19 one is not in addition to, but replaces the level 5 one, correct?


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## gyor (Apr 7, 2011)

hbnetto said:


> And what about vampire? So bad as it seems?




Vampires don't seem bad, just poor on choices. Vampires sound powerful.

What is the vampires level 29 power?

Those auras sound cool, but if the blackguard has dark grace up and his ally is forced to spend a surge while your around he is going to hate you hehe. Especially if the reason he needs to spend it is because the blackguard shifted the damage from an attack against him to that poor bugger.

How is the grim blackguard as a paragon path is it any good?

Thanks again.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

mageta80 said:


> Whaaaaaaaat ?!?
> 
> Ok, now I'm lost... Did they change the whole rule for the Pact Weapon?
> 
> ...




They don't mention it at all, it leaves out anything that is copied straight from the other book. Technically, even without the implement keyword, your weapon would still get the magical properties, crit, etc off your implement, but it does mess with the feat stuff (which is kind of important ... you want your at-wills to benefit from rod expertise). I'm guessing it's a typo.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 7, 2011)

SFurtwangler said:


> The "Legioncaller of Moil" feat was previewed, which gives a boost to creatures summoned with shadow summoning powers. Are there enough such powers to make that feat worthwhile? The only two I knew of were the previewed dailies, and you said earlier that the level 19 one is not in addition to, but replaces the level 5 one, correct?




Technically speaking, the level 19 one gives you something else you can summon with the same power. So you could only prepare the level 5 one, but you could use it summon either a skel or a wraith (or the choice of the two nethermancer ones if that was the expert school option you picked). The same applies for the warlock's ally ... it's one power that gains another optioning for summoning later. 

ASIDE: Based on the way they worded the level 19 class feature, that you give up adding one of the two spells added to the spellbook at that level to instead get a new option for the existing summonig spell, this means that when you prepare spells for the day, you can prepare a level 19 spell (the other one you picked), a level 15 spell, and then your level 5 spell to summon the creature you just unlocked at level 19. Once you reach 29 it won't matter as much (you'd probably prepare 29, 25 and either 19 or the summoning spell), but until then, you are basically getting two level 19's effectively.

Their are only two other shadow summoning powers in the book. One is a level 2 utility summon shadow serpect. It basically is a means of spying (you can see through it's eyes, and it has bonuses to stealth). The other is the Enigmatic Mage's level 20 power for necromancer's. It summons a group of minions that can act in unison.

So, in terms of the temp hp when you shadow summon ... not going to be usuable many times per day until/unless you get one of those paragon/epic things that let you recharge or copy a power, or make it an encounter power. A dedicated necromancer can have 3 per day at 20, barring any special feat tricks, etc.

However, the bonus to hit and defenses for a summoned creature are good for the wizard, because his summoned creature [at 5/19] doesn't go away at the end of the encounter, it stays until the bitter end, or it's dismissed [or you summon a new one]. So that bonus to hit and defenses lasts all the time basically, especially if you go into a new day with a fresh one, as you can replace him when he drops that day.


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## SFurtwangler (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks for the fast reply. I had hoped for more summons, but its probably go that they didn't make every necro daily a summon undead spell.


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## CelticMutt (Apr 8, 2011)

mageta80 said:


> This, totally.
> Thanks for all the stuff!
> 
> 
> ...



Probably the first thing to get errata'ed.  Hopefully with the second being the Shade's racial being a standard ...



WalterKovacs said:


> 22 You get a utilty based on Vice. For  Domination it's Dark Grace, a daily aura 1. If you or an all in the aura  hit an enemy, that person gets 5 thp. If an ally in the aura spend a  surge, they ony get half the hp, and you get the rest.



That is hilarious.  The Vampire was the class I was looking forward to the most and now ... well ok it still is but now I really wanna see the Blackguard.  I think these two are gonna be my favorites for a good while.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

CelticMutt said:


> That is hilarious. The Vampire was the class I was looking forward to the most and now ... well ok it still is but now I really wanna see the Blackguard. I think these two are gonna be my favorites for a good while.




The blackguard had me thinking about the dark pact warlock's flavor/powers that hurt your allies to better hurt the bad guys. The Blackguard pulls that theme off a bit better, IMHO, and it helps to show the dark reflection of the paladin/cavalier considering the ammount of "sacrifice yourself for your ally" powers they have.

Also, I'm now very tempted to go back and build a hybrid paladin/warlock


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## gyor (Apr 8, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> The blackguard had me thinking about the dark pact warlock's flavor/powers that hurt your allies to better hurt the bad guys. The Blackguard pulls that theme off a bit better, IMHO, and it helps to show the dark reflection of the paladin/cavalier considering the ammount of "sacrifice yourself for your ally" powers they have.
> 
> Also, I'm now very tempted to go back and build a hybrid paladin/warlock




A hybrid blackguard/Dark Pact Warlock that picks powers that nail his allies sounds fun! Unless your the allies hehe. Still the bg should have more surges then he needs so a vampire should at least like him. Thanks again, I'm looking for to HOS.

Oh before I forget does that gloomblade Hexblade get summons like the other hexblades do?


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## Aegeri (Apr 8, 2011)

gyor said:


> Vampires don't seem bad, just poor on choices. Vampires sound powerful.



Now that I've seen a good deal (a really good deal) of the class "Powerful" isn't the word I would use. I would still use the word swingy, but with durable they eliminate a great deal of their Achilles heel - especially at the lower levels. Two attack stats (Dex for most melee attack powers and charisma for certain other powers) that can't be avoided as you're railroaded into taking them doesn't help either.

They feel distinctly underpowered as strikers as well, which doesn't help and I think they might be competing with the OAssassin for the bottom of the barrel striker wise. At the same time, from what I have read about them I do get an impression they might actually be interesting controllers. Many of their forms can escape nasty situations and they do pack some nice effects in pulling/pushing at-will (and get both of them, plus some THP generation), plus the burst encounter/dailies (that again, often seem to pack decent effects). They get a dominate and can later turn their dominate into a nasty catch-22 that also dazes when they use it to get a surge.

Overall I think as strikers they don't sound spectacular at all, especially because as an MBA is not a vampire power they can't get as much out of charge cheese as other essentials classes (eg Slayer) can. But as more of a controller role, I think they might have some real merit.

It's far from the total disaster I was afraid of though, especially with taking durable.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

gyor said:


> Oh before I forget does that gloomblade Hexblade get summons like the other hexblades do?




Yes he does, a Dark Creeper at 9, a Sorrowswornat 25.



Aegeri said:


> Now that I've seen a good deal (a really good deal) of the class "Powerful" isn't the word I would use. I would still use the word swingy, but with durable they eliminate a great deal of their Achilles heel - especially at the lower levels. Two attack stats (Dex for most melee attack powers and charisma for certain other powers) that can't be avoided as you're railroaded into taking them doesn't help either.




One note on the Charisma based attacks, they have +2 to hit built in, so if Charisma is within 2 of Dex, it's either as good as if not better in terms of to hit roll, and only the at-will power deals cha mod damage (the dominating powers deal fixed damage). Considering you depend on Charisma for regeneration and striker damage, you likely will have solid Cha. [Most vampires will probably pick a dex/cha class mix though]



> They feel distinctly underpowered as strikers as well, which doesn't help and I think they might be competing with the OAssassin for the bottom of the barrel striker wise. At the same time, from what I have read about them I do get an impression they might actually be interesting controllers. Many of their forms can escape nasty situations and they do pack some nice effects in pulling/pushing at-will (and get both of them, plus some THP generation). They get a dominate and can later turn their dominate into a nasty catch-22 that also dazes when they use it to get a surge.
> 
> Overall I think as strikers they don't sound spectacular at all, especially because as an MBA is not a vampire power they can't get as much out of charge cheese as other essentials classes (eg Slayer) can. But as more of a controller role, I think they might have some real merit.




The pushing at-will can be used as a melee basic attack. They don't get their striker damage to ranged basic attacks (although you should have the dex to make those), but if you want to charge, you do have an at-will attack to use (which benefits from your striker damage boost, and can trigger your no action encounter power). I'll be counting on that for my revenant vampire, as while dying but dazed, I can charge someone to grab myself a bonus surge .


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## Aegeri (Apr 8, 2011)

Yeah I know about the +2 on the charisma based attacks. Didn't know that the at-will power that counts as an MBA though, that makes it a lot better. Though I do wonder what the precise wording on that is? Does it let you use it on a charge or does it let you use it as an MBA (there are some quite big differences there)? If it lets you use it as a general MBA, then the vampire also has no problems with OAs!


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Yeah I know about the +2 on the charisma based attacks. Didn't know that the at-will power that counts as an MBA though, that makes it a lot better. Though I do wonder what the precise wording on that is? Does it let you use it on a charge or does it let you use it as an MBA (there are some quite big differences there)? If it lets you use it as a general MBA, then the vampire also has no problems with OAs!




It's usable as an MBA, so they can use it for OAs, charges, and anything that grants MBAs like warlords, etc.


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## gyor (Apr 8, 2011)

If wraith and shadow brute still use the level 5 spell then a changeling chameleon ally of the necro/nethermancer should be able to use thier daily chameleon power to summon one too. Actually it gets better if the mancer goes archmage as the chameleon can then use imatiating strike to summon them as encounters.

Archmage is the way to go with these guys. Summon wraith as an encounter power. Want a horde? summon one, take a short break, summon another, rinse and repeat. Or Ardiot explorer and it again.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

gyor said:


> If wraith and shadow brute still use the level 5 spell then a changeling chameleon ally of the necro/nethermancer should be able to use thier daily chameleon power to summon one too. Actually it gets better if the mancer goes archmage as the chameleon can then use imatiating strike to summon them as encounters.




I'm not entirely sure. While you do get to ignore prereqs per the paragon path power, the power does say to summon a creature associated with your Expert Mage benefit ... I'm not sure if you are assumed to have the same feature as your ally, or if the power was effectively unusable.



> Archmage is the way to go with these guys. Summon wraith as an encounter power. Want a horde? summon one, take a short break, summon another, rinse and repeat. Or Ardiot explorer and it again.




Whenever you use the power, you destroy previously created summons. So, you can't create a horde, but you can resummon one you had before the encounter started if it dies (or even dismiss it if it gets low on hp, and summon a new one).


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## CelticMutt (Apr 8, 2011)

What are the alignment restrictions for the Blackguard Vices?


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## Aegeri (Apr 8, 2011)

What are some of the binder warlock encounter and daily powers like? Further, what sort of riders on their powers to binder warlocks end up getting?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

CelticMutt said:


> What are the alignment restrictions for the Blackguard Vices?




Domination: Unaligned or evil
Fury: Any but lawful good [although 'most' are unaligned]



Aegeri said:


> What are some of the binder warlock encounter and daily powers like? Further, what sort of riders on their powers to binder warlocks end up getting?




Dailies: They get 2 choices at each daily level (expect for 9 and 25, where they get a warlock ally summoning power). There is 1 single target ranged attack, and 1 area burst that creates a zone attack at each level, except at 29 where instead of single target there is a big burst that creates conjurations.

The zones are all solid controller stuff. They immobilize, slow, discourage enemies from leaving the zone, prevent enemies from leaving the zone, penalize or prevent enemies from attacking outside the zone, etc ... very focused on basicaly taking enemies out of the fight temporarily.

The ranged attacks have some interesting ideas as well. One deals ongoing damage that the enemy can shake off by trying to "escape a grab" on their turn [so, it tries to burn up the opponent's move actions]. One slows (s/e). One is a conjuration that can move around and attack to daze until end of next turn. One daze (s/e). The level 29 one conjurs duplicates a copy of each enemy in the burst, who attack their originals with a MBA with +4 to hit and damage, then they stick around and deal damage to enemies that are in the space of, or adjacent to, any of the shadow conjurations, which can be cumulative.

Encounter powers (normal effects):

Gloom - Push, slow, blind, slide, grant c/a, remove from play for a turn.

Star - slowed, zone of "darkness", daze, zone granting c/a, knock prone

Rider effects:

Gloom - Damage if target moves, able to deal damage to adjacent creature, enemies grant c/a and can't o/a while adjacent to target, also slide the target, make allies invisible when near enemy, create a square of damage like cloud of daggers

Star - Zone of difficult terrain, zone deals damage, slide target and deal damage to target and adjacent creatures at end of slide, target takes extra damage, pull towards center of burst and create a damaging square in the origin square

So, outside of one power that just ups the pure damage of the attack, most of the riders create a second thing for the powers to do, giving the powers two control effects for the price of one.

[Riders are only for the encounter powers, and it is for all of them, not counting the paragon path one, since it's exclusive to binders of that pact anyway; They are basically built like warpriests with choice of daily/utility, and their pact determining encounters and paragon path].


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## mageta80 (Apr 8, 2011)

Does the Binder have the Eldritch Pact class feature? (prerequisite for Two Fold Pact feat)

Can you confirm that the riders are for the Binder Star pact only and not for the general "Warlock" Star pact.

What are the improved boon for both pact (and at which level)?

What are the Paragon Paths for the binder?


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## Zaran (Apr 8, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:
			
		

> Those were the only options, all other levels gives you a power (or additional uses of the bloodsucking power). You do get a different encounter power at a few levels, that let's you spend a surge to attack a second target or deal more damage to the single target.




Wow. Do they do the attributes for you too?  Are you allowed to pick a name for your character?

   And people want more of these eClasses!


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

mageta80 said:


> Does the Binder have the Eldritch Pact class feature? (prerequisite for Two Fold Pact feat)




The class feature is called Pact Boon, so they wouldn't qualify. 



> Can you confirm that the riders are for the Binder Star pact only and not for the general "Warlock" Star pact.




The riders basically say: *Gloom Pact (Binder):* or *Star Pact (Binder):*. So, the riders don't work for generic warlocks. 



> What are the improved boon for both pact (and at which level)?




At level 16 they get "Binder's Boon", their equivalent to improved boon.

For Gloom: During the slide, the target can pass through enemies and blocking terrain, but has to end in a square it can normally occupy.

For Star: In addition to invisible, you are also insubstantial until end of next turn

Note: This is part of the Master Binder paragon path (your 16th level feature)



> What are the Paragon Paths for the binder?




The one presented with the class is Master Binder. It's action point, class feature, and encounter power are tied to the pact. It's utility is a no action (during turn) daily that can be used to teleport 10 (without needing LOS), end an effect on you that is save ends, or you can make yourself immune to damage until end of your next turn. The daily is a single target ranged attack, damage with half on a miss. It's effect is to let you automatically get off your pact boon, andi you kill the enemy anyway, you get an extra standard action this turn as well.

For the pact specific parts of Master Binder, at 11 the gloom pact improves its at-will (you can deal auto damage to another creature in the burst if you hit), action point gives you c/a for all targets of the attack, and the enounter is an areathat creates a zone of darkness that deals damage to enemies that end their turn inside.

For the star pact, at 11 your at-will improves so that anyone that attacks the target with c/a gets +2 to damage rolls, an action point gives you +4 to damage with cold/necro/psychic damage until end of turn, and the encounter power is a single target that dazes and the creature needs to include the closest creature in any attack it makes on it's next turn. [For some reason the second part is a rider even though only a star pact binder is the only class that could have that paragon path ... hmm]

There is also a paragon path in the book that is for any gloom pact warlock (so, at the moment, a binder or hexblade could take it).

At 11 you get bonuses to damage for your encounters and dailies (+2, +4 is you are bloodied). Spending an action point to make an attack deals auto damage to one creature within 5. Encounter targets up to 2 enemies, weakens and if you are bloodied, you deal extra damage as part of the attack. Utility is encounter, and you get c/a to all enemies until end of turn. At 16, once per encounter when you drop someone you can use an at-will warlock power as a minor action (free action if bloodied) bfore the end of your turn. Daily is a single target attack, it stuns (s/e) and you daze yourself. Aftereffect: Dazed (s/e) and you have to include nearest enemy in any attack you make, but you get +2 to attack rolls and +5 to damage rolls, all that as long as he stays dazed. On a miss, he's dazed (s/e) and nothing happens to you as a warlock.

Just as an FYI: I pretty much left out damage ... there really aren't many attacks that don't do damage, so I only listed the other stuff (or conditional damage/ongoing damage, etc)


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## Dannager (Apr 8, 2011)

Zaran said:


> Wow. Do they do the attributes for you too?  Are you allowed to pick a name for your character?
> 
> And people want more of these eClasses!




This is very similar to how most classes functioned in previous editions - you had relatively few choices to make as you leveled up, unless you were a spellcaster. Even if you're playing an Essentials class, you still have a fair number of choices to make as you level - feats, retraining, paragon paths, epic destinies, some of your powers (heck, _all_ of your powers if you want; you're not restricted to the powers in the Essentials builds).

It's just another way to play, and there are people who find it easier to manage. No reason to knock it.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

Zaran said:


> Wow. Do they do the attributes for you too? Are you allowed to pick a name for your character?
> 
> And people want more of these eClasses!




To be fair, the classes in HotFK and HotFL are nowhere near this restrictive.

I'm assuming that few other classes would be like this. The vampire is different because, ultimately, it's not "really" a class ... You don't train to be a vampire, or learn, etc. And this isn't Vampire the Masquerade where there are many types of vampires in the world that can pick different types of powers. So basically this is what powers a vampire develops as he grows in power, and the choices they do get are basically to either be Bluff and Diplomacy, or Stealth and Intimidate. Are you the charming vamp, or the beastial vamp?

It's the low end of restrictiveness ... but most other eClasses either give you a choice to pick say ... all your encounters at level 1, or they give you different choices (i.e. no dailies, but you gain at-wills). And, in play, you have basically the same choices as most classes, with the regular number of daily, encounter and utilities, plus 3 at-wills.

[Although, to be fair, your attributes are pretty locked in, since you really need to pump dex and charisma as much as possible, leaving you a bit of customization for your last 3 or 4 points; then again, that isn't much different from a slayer, sorceror or blackguard whose striker damage is based on a secondary stat]


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## mageta80 (Apr 8, 2011)

Thank you so much !


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## Zaran (Apr 8, 2011)

Dannager said:


> This is very similar to how most classes functioned in previous editions - you had relatively few choices to make as you leveled up, unless you were a spellcaster. Even if you're playing an Essentials class, you still have a fair number of choices to make as you level - feats, retraining, paragon paths, epic destinies, some of your powers (heck, _all_ of your powers if you want; you're not restricted to the powers in the Essentials builds).
> 
> It's just another way to play, and there are people who find it easier to manage. No reason to knock it.




Oh, I know that I've always regretted the day when I was forced to buy into 4e and have all those choices in powers when I levelled up.  I hated being able to distingish my character from the next!  If only they would revert their rather robust rules and choices to the days when our characters were determined by the randomness of 4d6k3 attributes!  

What made 4e great was how we could actually build a character that was balanced and fun to play.  Not to be given a character sheet and say "Here! Make up a name to put at the top !"  I guarantee you that the player that wants to tackle having 2 surges wants more choices than what feat to get every 2.1 levels


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## IanB (Apr 8, 2011)

Zaran said:


> Oh, I know that I've always regretted the day when I was forced to buy into 4e and have all those choices in powers when I levelled up.  I hated being able to distingish my character from the next!  If only they would revert their rather robust rules and choices to the days when our characters were determined by the randomness of 4d6k3 attributes!
> 
> What made 4e great was how we could actually build a character that was balanced and fun to play.  Not to be given a character sheet and say "Here! Make up a name to put at the top !"  I guarantee you that the player that wants to tackle having 2 surges wants more choices than what feat to get every 2.1 levels




Good to know you speak for everyone. I really don't see a problem with having a wider variety of complexity available in characters. Some people really do want the simpler first edition fighter type class (and this still has more choice than that.)


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## Dannager (Apr 8, 2011)

Zaran said:


> Oh, I know that I've always regretted the day when I was forced to buy into 4e and have all those choices in powers when I levelled up.  I hated being able to distingish my character from the next!  If only they would revert their rather robust rules and choices to the days when our characters were determined by the randomness of 4d6k3 attributes!
> 
> What made 4e great was how we could actually build a character that was balanced and fun to play.  Not to be given a character sheet and say "Here! Make up a name to put at the top !"  I guarantee you that the player that wants to tackle having 2 surges wants more choices than what feat to get every 2.1 levels




When creating a 1st level Essentials character, you can choose (mechanically) its skills, one or two feats, its background benefit, its attribute assignment, its race, and its class. All of these allow you to _mechanically _distinguish your Essentials character from another Essentials character (and this, of course, totally ignores the non-mechanical choices you can make during character creation). The _only_ difference between Essentials characters' options and normal characters' options is that you make fewer decisions regarding powers (and even that is a false argument, because there's _nothing_ preventing you from ignoring the Essentials build and just picking whatever class power you want at each level where you would gain one).

I think you're making this into a _way_ bigger deal than it actually is, both historically and in contemporary context.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

Zaran said:


> What made 4e great was how we could actually build a character that was balanced and fun to play. Not to be given a character sheet and say "Here! Make up a name to put at the top !"




Just double checked my book, and no, it doesn't say "Zaran can only play vampires from now on". You are still able to play every other class in 4e which still has tons of options.



> I guarantee you that the player that wants to tackle having 2 surges wants more choices than what feat to get every 2.1 levels




They have more options.

Every utility level, they can take skill powers in place of their "assigned" utility, they can pick a theme power in it's place, they could use a racial utility (from shade or vryloka) or they can swap it via a multiclass feat.

Their level 3 (and it's replacement at level 17) has a level number, which means it can be power swapped via multiclassing, or a theme encounter power.

Their dailies are all leveled, so multiclass feats or themes can give you replacements. 

Your at-wills are level numbered, which means a half-elf could grab any of them, and if you paragon multiclass, you can retrain one out.

Most of those options are available to all (some classes don't get numbered encounter or dailies though), but there are options for customizing a vampire. And of course, there is always the option to pick a different class if customizability is very important.

Anyway, people want spoilers ... maybe start a new thread to talk about people's thoughts on vampires?


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## Zaran (Apr 8, 2011)

> When creating a 1st level Essentials character, you can choose (mechanically) its skills, one or two feats, its background benefit, its attribute assignment, its race, and its class. All of these allow you to _mechanically _distinguish your Essentials character from another Essentials character (and this, of course, totally ignores the non-mechanical choices you can make during character creation). The _only_ difference between Essentials characters' options and normal characters' options is that you make fewer decisions regarding powers (and even that is a false argument, because there's _nothing_ preventing you from ignoring the Essentials build and just picking whatever class power you want at each level where you would gain one).




Except for the fact that there is no normal character class for the Vampire Class.  You know, if you guys like what you see then that's cool.  Buy the book.   This is not why I switched from 3.5 to 4e though and I will NOT be buying thisbook.  And when they realize that the 70% of their player base that wants more than Essentials characters they might still have capital enough to dig themselves out their hole.


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## SFurtwangler (Apr 8, 2011)

Found out I have a premier store down the street from my house, so I picked up my own copy today. Thanks again for wetting my appetite.


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## Neverfate (Apr 8, 2011)

Zaran said:


> Except for the fact that there is no normal character class for the Vampire Class.  You know, if you guys like what you see then that's cool.  Buy the book.   This is not why I switched from 3.5 to 4e though and I will NOT be buying thisbook.  And when they realize that the 70% of their player base that wants more than Essentials characters they might still have capital enough to dig themselves out their hole.




I understand your frustrations. I think it's best suited for another thread though. I too have wanted to rant about the reprinting of the Executioner, but I'm gonna wait until the actual release of the book. These are pre-release spoilers thread after all.


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## gyor (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanks for the info. Can you tell me about the Grim Blackguard? Thank you.

The vice alignment restrictions are interesting. I would have expected the fury bg to have more restrictons then the domination blackguard. I wonder what makes domination eviler then Fury. Although Domination can't be choatic evil so some fury bg are more evil.


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## CelticMutt (Apr 8, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> Domination: Unaligned or evil
> Fury: Any but lawful good [although 'most' are unaligned]



 Huh.  I pretty much expected the Domination ones, but Fury allowing Good is kinda surprising.



WalterKovacs said:


> The level 29 one conjurs duplicates a copy of each enemy in the burst, who attack their originals with a MBA with +4 to hit and damage, then they stick around and deal damage to enemies that are in the space of, or adjacent to, any of the shadow conjurations, which can be cumulative.



Ok, that is awesome.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

gyor said:


> Thanks for the info. Can you tell me about the Grim Blackguard? Thank you.
> 
> The vice alignment restrictions are interesting. I would have expected the fury bg to have more restrictons then the domination blackguard. I wonder what makes domination eviler then Fury. Although Domination can't be choatic evil so some fury bg are more evil.




In terms of the alligments, the way I see it is basically:

Domination screams "lawful evil/lawful neutral". Fury, on the other hand, is more chaotic than necessarily evil. A chaotic good character could be furious (albeit righteous), as well as choatic neutral, chaotic evil, or even neutral evil, etc ... So that fits the appropriate allignments (as they are in 4e anyway).

Grim Blackguard, the paragon path, has the following stuff:

At 11, you get +2 to saving throws, +4 vs. fear. At 16, whenever an adjacent creature drops yourol a d4 to get a Dark Blessing: 10 temp hp, +2 to defenses until EoNT, +1 to attack rols until EoNT, regain CHA mod hp.  Action point, encounter, utility and daily are all based on your vice.

Dom - Action point gives power bonus to attack rolls until EoNT equal to number of allies within 2 squares. Encounter powe, burst 1, weakens and gains thp. Utility daily, conjures an altar which gives you and allies a bonus to hit bloodied creatures while near the altar. Daily is a melee attack that deals ongoing damage. If the target ends his next turn adjacent to you or an ally, they don't get to save that turn.

Fury - Action point gives you c/a against all enemies until EoT. Encounter was previewed, but basically let's you make a dazing opportunity attack when attacked in melee until your next turn. Utility daily, conjures an altar that gives you and allies a bonus to damage while near the altar. Daily is a melee attack that dazes (save ends), and while dazed, at the start of each of the targets turns, roll a d6. 1-2, target takes damage, 3-4: target makes a MBA or charge against one of your enemies closest to it, or loses it's action if it can't make any such attack; 5-6: target and any of your enemies adjacent to it take the 1-2 damage AND it does 3-4's effect.


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## gyor (Apr 8, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> In terms of the alligments, the way I see it is basically:
> 
> Domination screams "lawful evil/lawful neutral". Fury, on the other hand, is more chaotic than necessarily evil. A chaotic good character could be furious (albeit righteous), as well as choatic neutral, chaotic evil, or even neutral evil, etc ... So that fits the appropriate allignments (as they are in 4e anyway).
> 
> ...




wow The altar powers sound cool. If the servant of vice counts as an ally then when using the dailies that would be cool time to use it. Ongoing damage with no save if ally is near sounds brutal. It is not hard to make sure an ally is always near. The dom is going to love cunning weapons with all the ongoing damage.

How is the fluff on the vices themselves? Is it good fluff?


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## Vael (Apr 8, 2011)

The Blackguard's design and development mentioned four starting vices, two cut from the book. Does the Blackguard's section tell us what the other vices might be?


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## Paper_Bard (Apr 8, 2011)

I have an issue with the binders. I picked up my heroes of shadow just today and it seems the binder doesnt get to add his or her secondary stat like the hexblade, even though I can see no reason why not. They have no ability to curse, and their damage isn't sorceror level... what's up?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

Paper_Bard said:


> I have an issue with the binders. I picked up my heroes of shadow just today and it seems the binder doesnt get to add his or her secondary stat like the hexblade, even though I can see no reason why not. They have no ability to curse, and their damage isn't sorceror level... what's up?




They are controllers. They aren't supposed to deal striker levels of damage.


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## AntlerDruid (Apr 8, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> They are controllers. They aren't supposed to deal striker levels of damage.




I got my copy today.

I am kind of disappointed that binders only get 1 summoning power at 9th though & 1 at higher level. The 2 shadow feats dealing with summoning is not worth it to them - only for wizards who already get enough stuff. I have actually really started to hate the glutton on wizards.

There are also no good wands or rods for Binders. Some new magic items would have been nice in the book besides the mundane stuff.

I do really like the Binder class though.

and why the 2nd level Warlock utility repeat that grants invisibility?? That was already in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms! No need to repeat in again WOTC.

On a whole though I like the book.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

gyor said:


> wow The altar powers sound cool. If the servant of vice counts as an ally then when using the dailies that would be cool time to use it. Ongoing damage with no save if ally is near sounds brutal. It is not hard to make sure an ally is always near. The dom is going to love cunning weapons with all the ongoing damage.
> 
> How is the fluff on the vices themselves? Is it good fluff?




It sounds like it only prevents the save the first turn from the looks of it. Basically the enemy has to find a way to end it's turn away from the allies, which could mean provoking O/A's and end up causing more damage, just for a chance to save. 

The servant of vice doesn't count as an ally (it's only a conjuration).

As far as fluff goes, they have a little write up at the start of the class write up, and then a bigger one at the start of the section with their at-will and other vice based features. They do a good job of showing how different the two vices are ... a blackguard of domination and a blackguard of fury would probably HATE each other in the same way a CN rogue and a paladin in a 3.5 game would. They are presented sort of as representative of order and chaos in a way, and sort of give some tips on how to play the character, as well as show the "path to evil" that either could slide down, either going to full blown tyranny or indiscriminate destruction for each of the vices.



Vael said:


> The Blackguard's design and development mentioned four starting vices, two cut from the book. Does the Blackguard's section tell us what the other vices might be?




Nope. It does go with the "two are presented in this book" language, but outside of that, doesn't really hint at what they could be.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

Askanipsion said:


> There are also no good wands or rods for Binders. Some new magic items would have been nice in the book besides the mundane stuff.




Hopefully the Shadowfell boxed set they are coming out with in May will handle the magic item load a bit. It seems like they are sort of a paired package, a bit like the old "player's guide/DM's guide" for settings.

Since they are doing a ki focus article for the vampires and assassins, hopefully next month they can put together a rod article for binders (and hexblades for that matter, most rods are tied to cursing warlocks, artificers or invokers).


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## Paper_Bard (Apr 8, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> They are controllers. They aren't supposed to deal striker levels of damage.




Ahh... thanks.


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## TirionAnthion (Apr 8, 2011)

*HoS*

I just picked up my copy and have been thumbing through it. So far, outside of the Assassin and some of the pack boons and maybe a few other misc things, the powers all have a class and level. This means that they are usable beyond these builds. Also I was glad to see that I can make a Blackguard and still choose powers beyond this book. 

Overall I like what I have seen so far. Admittedly I DM more than play so I have a slightly different perspective on the book than someone who plays more than DMs. I certainly disagree with some of the reviews that have knocked the book for being Essentials only. I did not get that from reading the book. 

I did notice that casters are favored in the book and they get alot of love. I would have liked to see a few more martial choices but that is not a deal breaker for me. For now I am going to get back to reading the book.


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## AntlerDruid (Apr 8, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> Hopefully the Shadowfell boxed set they are coming out with in May will handle the magic item load a bit. It seems like they are sort of a paired package, a bit like the old "player's guide/DM's guide" for settings.
> 
> Since they are doing a ki focus article for the vampires and assassins, hopefully next month they can put together a rod article for binders (and hexblades for that matter, most rods are tied to cursing warlocks, artificers or invokers).




Thanks for the info WalterKovacs 

The drow female blackguard photo in HoS is awesome too.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 8, 2011)

TirionAnthion said:


> I did notice that casters are favored in the book and they get alot of love. I would have liked to see a few more martial choices but that is not a deal breaker for me. For now I am going to get back to reading the book.




I think it may just be a result of the subject matter. Martial classes don't easily lend themselves to dabbling in forbidden magic kind of concepts. Maybe if they didn't already have the assassin [and promised to make an essential version], they could have made it a rogue variant instead, but really shadow as a power source does seem to lend itself to arcane/divine more so than primal, martial or psionic. Depending on the focus of future books, that can go other ways hopefully. [Like the eldarin knight concept could be the kind of thing that could end up in the heroes of the feywild book].


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## 1darklord (Apr 8, 2011)

Hey,

Any chance of some more info on the cleric powers that you mentioned would be good for Laser Clerics? (mine is getting excited at the thought of new big blasts and bursts!)

Also any new healing powers for Clerics?

Cheers,

Daniel.


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## CelticMutt (Apr 9, 2011)

Vael said:


> The Blackguard's design and development mentioned four starting vices, two cut from the book. Does the Blackguard's section tell us what the other vices might be?



According to the Cavalier write-up it's Greed and either Tyranny or Terror.  The Cavalier stated (p 117) that the opposing Vices were Fury, Tyranny, Greed, and Terror.  So one of Terror or Tyranny got made into Dominate.  I know it would make more sense for Tyranny to get renamed since they're closer in nature, but I swear I read somewhere that it was Terror that got renamed or replaced.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 9, 2011)

1darklord said:


> Hey,
> 
> Any chance of some more info on the cleric powers that you mentioned would be good for Laser Clerics? (mine is getting excited at the thought of new big blasts and bursts!)




In general, most of the powers are implement based, with a couple weapon based powers in there. So, for implement based laser clerics, most of the powers are at least viable options without needing to pick up a weapon (and thus needing another expertise feat and magic item to keep up with attack numbers).

I'll give you some info on blasts and bursts:

At 9, there is a close blast 3, enemies only, damage (half on miss) and creates an encounter long zone that causes enemies to grant c/a while they are in it. At 19, close blast 5, all creatures, damage (half on miss), and creates an encounter long zone where the first enemy that dies in the zone rises as a dominated minion. At 25, close blast 5, enemies only, damage (half on miss), creates sustainable zone that weakens enemies and gives allies thp.

At 3, close burst 3, enemies only, IR triggers off any creature in burst dropping, damage on hit, effect gives you and allies thp and bonuses to attack roll until EoNT. At 13, close burst 3, one enemy, no attack roll, enemy grants c/a until EoNT, first attack against it deal 3d8 extra damage on a hit or miss. At 17, close burst 5, enemies only, IR triggers off any creature in burst dropping, damage on hit, effect gives you and each ally thp and bonuses to attack rolls until EoNT. At 27, close burst 5, single target, no attack roll, target grants c/a until EoNT, first attack deals 4d8 extra damage hit or miss.



> Also any new healing powers for Clerics?




Other than the thp stuff mentioned already, at 2 they get a daily utility to let a dying ally spend two surges, which also gives them a bonus to attack rolls and damage, but they grant c/a, until either at full hp or end of encounter. At 6, they get a daily utility zone which gives you and allies bonus to damage rolls, and everyone in the zone regains hp when an enemy dies in the zone. At 10, daily utility alows you and any allies in burst 5 o lose a surge and get thp equal to surge value, plus bous to speed, Athletics and Acrobatics for the ecounter. At 22 there is a daily utility called Death Shield, you lose a surge and the next time target ally would drop to 0 hp or below before the next extended rest, it instead drops to 1hp. [Vampires and other regenerators like Death Shield]


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## Aegeri (Apr 9, 2011)

Are there any strength powers for the cleric out of curiosity? I am going to guess no, but it's worth asking anyway.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 9, 2011)

CelticMutt said:


> According to the Cavalier write-up it's Greed and either Tyranny or Terror. The Cavalier stated (p 117) that the opposing Vices were Fury, Tyranny, Greed, and Terror. So one of Terror or Tyranny got made into Dominate. I know it would make more sense for Tyranny to get renamed since they're closer in nature, but I swear I read somewhere that it was Terror that got renamed or replaced.




Tyranny gets name dropped as part of the Domination fluff (basically the jyst is: evil Domination is Tyranny). I can see Terror and Greed working actually.

The idea is to have something that can be used for good or evil. Dominating monsters and the like can help to impose control on the world and make it safer. Taken to far, you crush all free will and it becomes tyranny. Fury, focused on the right targets, can lead to good ends. If it's not controlled, it will lash out at everything.

So, to that end, Terror would be using fear against enemies, but not terrorizing everyone (unless you do want to go down the road to evil). So fear based powers, disheartening enemies, etc. Similar to Domination, but you aren't controlling them, just disheartening them and discouraging them from doing things, etc.

Greed would probably focus on protection, and taking things from the enemy. Being shrewd can be a good thing, being wasteful is sort of bad too. So a "little" greed can be good, too much and it's evil.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 9, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Are there any strength powers for the cleric out of curiosity? I am going to guess no, but it's worth asking anyway.




No ... but there are attack powers which don't rely on wisdom. There are daily melee power that auto hit (Inflict Wounds, Drain Life, Ravage). The first two do deal dice+wis mod damage, but don't require Wis to hit. The last one deals your bloodied value in damage, so is entirely Wis independent. For encounter powers, at 1, 13 and 27, you not only don't need wisdom, you don't need an implement. It auto hits, and doesn't use wisdom for its damage (it's the ones listed in my post three up from this one that gives combat advantage and extra damage to the next attack). At 7 and 23 there are auto-hit powers that don't need an implement, but the damage is partly determined by wisdom modifier. All these are melee or close attacks, so a strength based melee cleric wouldn't have to worry about provoking O/As when using any of these attacks.

So, while none of the powers use Strength, there are a number of powers that don't require maximized (or any) Wisdom, and some don't need an implement either. [Not even taking into account the utilities, feats, etc]


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## Aegeri (Apr 9, 2011)

So the bloodied value = damage power is called ravage? Odd, I would have called it Harm myself.


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## gyor (Apr 9, 2011)

CelticMutt said:


> According to the Cavalier write-up it's Greed and either Tyranny or Terror.  The Cavalier stated (p 117) that the opposing Vices were Fury, Tyranny, Greed, and Terror.  So one of Terror or Tyranny got made into Dominate.  I know it would make more sense for Tyranny to get renamed since they're closer in nature, but I swear I read somewhere that it was Terror that got renamed or replaced.




Where did you hear that? I don't doubt you just curious.

Tyranny and domination have way too much in common, although tyranny is more political and domination is more flexible and has a sexual subtext and personal subtext. Still Tyranny is a type of domination.

Terror is more seperate from the others then tyranny. Terror is fears and nightmares, I 'd say unaligned, evil, choatic evil. Greed is profit and luxury with a subtext of being a mercanary and I see it being more morally flexible like fury. 

What kind of vice/dark emotion would you like to see. Addiction could be cool. Vice striker feature where you get a +8 to damage, but if you attack a different foe after using it you take a minus four to damage from withdrawl.
 Blasphemy would be awesome. +3 extra damage, +8 against immortals. Madness with a slight far realms tinge with a far realmsian vice striker feature, lashing out with tetacles for +4 damage. Voyerism would get a bonus to the attack roll instead of damage. For the seven vices Lust and Sloth. Those ideas I'm saving for now, because I want to try and make a dragon article about it. Knights of Chivalry article would address Cavaliers of Romance and Blackguards of Lust (but without being crass). Sloth I am thinking of as part of an article as well.


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## kaomera (Apr 9, 2011)

Askanipsion said:


> I am kind of disappointed that binders only get 1 summoning power at 9th though & 1 at higher level. The 2 shadow feats dealing with summoning is not worth it to them - only for wizards who already get enough stuff. I have actually really started to hate the glutton on wizards.



That does sound disappointing, hopefully it will be addresses in Dragon some time soon. However it's kind of seeming to me like they may have tried to include too much stuff in the book. Fewer things could have had more options each... I guess it's a symptom of the economy, though. I don't know if WotC could have afforded to put more out (either two books or a larger one), and I don't know how many of their customers would have laid out the extra cash... I am really pretty disappointed in WotC for "re-"printing the assassin, given that the space could have bee used for other stuff. Source or not the class does not say "shadow" to me, and as far as I can tell we had a 90%+ complete version of it already.


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## CelticMutt (Apr 9, 2011)

gyor said:


> Where did you hear that? I don't doubt you just curious.



That's the problem, I don't remember.  I swear it was a Design and Development or similar type interview, or maybe a post by one of the writers, but I can't find it.  Hell, maybe it was a fever dream.  

But yeah, Domination = Tyranny does make more sense.


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## UngeheuerLich (Apr 9, 2011)

Zaran said:


> Oh, I know that I've always regretted the day when I was forced to buy into 4e and have all those choices in powers when I levelled up.  I hated being able to distingish my character from the next!  If only they would revert their rather robust rules and choices to the days when our characters were determined by the randomness of 4d6k3 attributes!
> 
> What made 4e great was how we could actually build a character that was balanced and fun to play.  Not to be given a character sheet and say "Here! Make up a name to put at the top !"  I guarantee you that the player that wants to tackle having 2 surges wants more choices than what feat to get every 2.1 levels



I am currently trying to teach an old ADnD player how that game works... and choices at level 1 are overwhelming.

I really wished there would even be less choice at level 1 and more choices later. So the vampire seems to be on the right track. I also don´t like the few choices later on that much.
For me, a perfect class would give:

- some fixed skills at level 1
- some fixed at wills at level 1
- a fixed encounter
- a fixed daily, if needed.
- a feat to chose
- one or 2 skills to chose

Later you get some choices, in utility, daily and maybe even encounter powers, extra at wills or some skill bonuses.

So the cavallier is actually on a good way.

Looking back to phb 1... which choice did a fighter have?

2-handed or 1-handed. You could have easily tied the at wills to th choice:

cleave for everyone, and tide of iron or reaping strike. (who took sure strike anyway?)
Taking away some choices, especially at level 1 is a good design decision.

Matt James talked about layers recently. In a way it is too late for 4e. But the new race design and the soon available themes allow the substitution of utilities and encounter powrs. So in the new metagame, less choices for classes does not necessarily mean a total straight jacket. And limited choices are necessary to have this function smoothly.

So a

Gladiator
Shade
Vampire

already has enough choices


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## gyor (Apr 9, 2011)

CelticMutt said:


> That's the problem, I don't remember.  I swear it was a Design and Development or similar type interview, or maybe a post by one of the writers, but I can't find it.  Hell, maybe it was a fever dream.
> 
> But yeah, Domination = Tyranny does make more sense.




Oh I've had those fevered dreams before, no biggy. 

Here is how I see the arch types playing out.

Domination: Dominatrix.

Terror: Boogy Man

Fury: The Hulk only shorter

Greed: An average American(kidding!)


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## Aegeri (Apr 9, 2011)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Taking away some choices, especially at level 1 is a good design decision.



It's really not and I couldn't disagree with this idea more if I tried. The vampire being so on rails makes it one of the most bland and uninteresting classes in 4E. There will be no diversity practically between any two players and that's just boring.


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## Insight (Apr 9, 2011)

I picked up Heroes of Shadow at my FLGS last night.  I was not at all expecting to see it in stores yet, so I was pleasantly surprised.

We had a new game starting last night, so I convinced the DM to let me test out the Vampire.  We were level 5.  I made a Human Vampire.  It turned out to be a fairly good striker and I never had any trouble running out of healing surges.  Also, obviously, I took Durable as a feat.  

Once, I was able to take advantage of Blood is Life: "during a rest, when you have surplus surges, you go back to your starting value and heal to full" power.   Twice, I was able to spend a surge on Feral Assault to gain the extra 2d8 damage.

The most important thing is temporary hit points.  The Vampire has a way to give himself temps and we had a Valor Bard also giving out temps.  I'm not sure how survivable the Vampire would be without that ability.


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## Neonchameleon (Apr 9, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> It's really not and I couldn't disagree with this idea more if I tried. The vampire being so on rails makes it one of the most bland and uninteresting classes in 4E. There will be no diversity practically between any two players and that's just boring.




The thing here is that some people like fewer options and less analysis paralysis when character building.  It's like the Slayer.  I'm not going to want to play a slayer ever; it strikes me as rigid and tactically dull.  But there are a couple of players at each of my 4e tables who _prefer_ this over the more intricate orthodox fighters.

And there might not be much diversity between two vampires - but so what?  There's a lot of clear water between a vampire and _any other class_.  And when you're breaking the class mold it's much more sensible to lock down the options to prevent accidental monsters being created.


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## Aegeri (Apr 10, 2011)

Insight said:


> We had a new game starting last night, so I convinced the DM to let me test out the Vampire.  We were level 5.  I made a Human Vampire.  It turned out to be a fairly good striker and I never had any trouble running out of healing surges.  Also, obviously, I took Durable as a feat.



So far I've been very unimpressed with them as a striker, but in fairness they do have some control options. It reminds me of the Oassassin in this way, immense work to get some middling control effects out of it and only average damage when you succeed. Their damage is immensely underwhelming without surges to spare, so I've noticed that non-durable taking vampires are going to struggle hard. In the scenarios I try the vampire often has a lot of difficulty going in and on the default surges just can't function well (Hazards -> Skill Challenges -> Traps before or during encounters). At the same time I can tell you what _really_ eliminates the problem here and that's durable. Durable makes or breaks the vampire, because as you say you can often get that extra damage feature if you have surges to spare. 4 surges means that you can't have a bad encounter and be screwed, plus can usually spare surges for extra damage (which they *really* need).

In some ways I feel the vampire gets a lot from Durable and the other feat to increase surge value. Ironically this means 2 of the races introduced in HoS are not great choices for the vampire. The Vrylokas -2 penalty to surges _really_ punishes the vampire, who on low HP is basically a walking target (bearing in mind regeneration does *not* function under 0 HP). At the same time the Vryloka's racial can generate a good amount of THP, so if you get it you should be set (combined with the vampires other THP options). A shade vampire is arguably one of the saddest sights in 4E. A shade vampire without durable is practically the most useless character in 4th edition.

Overall though this is pretty much a complete trap option for new players and won't offer enough for anyone who is actually very system savvy. It's hard to figure out who this class is actually for. It's a distinctly underpowered class, which relies heavily on playing it near perfectly (and never ever having a bad day dice wise) to succeed and with a gimmick that is interesting or an achilles heel.


Neonchameleon said:


> The thing here is that some people like  fewer options and less analysis paralysis when character building.  It's  like the Slayer.  I'm not going to want to play a slayer ever; it  strikes me as rigid and tactically dull.  But there are a couple of  players at each of my 4e tables who _prefer_ this over the more intricate orthodox fighters.



The slayer/Knight might be rigid and have few choices, but the vampire is even WORSE in this regard. Slayers and Knights can at least be differentiated a few ways, by stances/weapons and they get more paragon path and utility power choices. There are literally around _seven_ total vampire builds. That's it. That's not fewer options, that's just phoning it in.

Edit: Of course the genuine irony of the vampire is to abuse Half-Elf, take a vampire at-will with your racial and the feat that makes you count as MCing into vampire (due to taking their at-will). Then just paragon multiclass to steal the vampires best stuff without taking any of the disadvantages. The dominate power is a particularly good target for many cha primary classes.


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## Mummolus (Apr 10, 2011)

I do wonder if "Essentials" isn't just an acquiescence to the fact that they couldn't provide support for the other classes precisely _because_ of the options. I mean, a new essentials build is a few powers and a couple of feats. The old classes demanded much more attention, because there were so many choices to be made. They probably are getting the most bang for their buck by releasing essentials classes with minimal starting customization.


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## Aegeri (Apr 10, 2011)

That is why I am sometimes so very critical of these classes. Due to my suspicion they are increasingly going to "Publish and forget" as the new model, if they don't get it right the first time a class is going to be doomed. It really isn't so much of a surprise to me that the builds from HoS I do like the Blackguard, Necromancer (Undecided on the Nethermancer, but the Evard's based PP is awesome) and many of the new general powers are because they are based on classes with support to use them. A Fury blackguard has a pretty pointless at-will for example, but it doesn't matter much when you can get another good at-will from the paladin class (say by being human) like valiant smite (then use the skill domain if you can access it to turn Valiant Smite into an at-will MBA!). The book isn't quite as bad as I thought it was going to be in fairness now I've seen the vast majority of it - but overall I am very disappointed with the direction 4E is going as indicated by this book. It looks like support is going to just drop for pre-essentials classes.

Well unless you're a fighter, wizard or cleric of course. So RIP Runepriest, Seeker and Artificer. Your chance to get support I feel has passed.


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## Tony Vargas (Apr 10, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Well unless you're a fighter, wizard or cleric of course. So RIP Runepriest, Seeker and Artificer. Your chance to get support I feel has passed.



Unless you're a Wizard or a WIS Cleric, yes.  If you're a Fighter or STR Cleric, the only pass-through support you'll be picking up is utilities.


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## Aegeri (Apr 10, 2011)

Fighters have 414 powers, they aren't in any danger of running out of options 

I am thinking that the strength cleric may get obliterated from the game entirely with the CC. We'll have to see on that but in fairness, many of the powers in HoS are usable for a strength cleric. Many of them don't hit whatsoever and have no riders that require wisdom, so even strength clerics can use these. In fact a strength/con melee cleric build with features like toughness can get more out of some of these powers than a less defensively inclined wisdom cleric.


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## UngeheuerLich (Apr 10, 2011)

I like the v-shapedness of the vampire. I hope this means that the strength cleric is not forgotten...


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## Nausicaa (Apr 10, 2011)

Thanks for your spoiler, Walter. 

Could you please add some infos about the Binder? I'm interested especially about at wills and level 1-3 encounter powers. 



> Unless you're a Wizard or a WIS Cleric, yes.  If you're a Fighter or STR  Cleric, the only pass-through support you'll be picking up is  utilities.




Yeah, lol... poor fighters. This is one of the few books where martial classes didn't get at least a bit of support. Fighters have 409 powers, Rangers 371, Rogues 323, Warlords 333... Wizard 293 and Clerics 291. Yes, martial classes are really undersupported.


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## Peraion Graufalke (Apr 10, 2011)

Are there any Level 1 Wizard Daily powers with the Cold keyword in HoS?
I've built a wizard with a Tome of the North Wind +1 and there's only one such power available so far. (The Tome can store two of these.)


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## Mentat55 (Apr 10, 2011)

Nausicaa said:


> Could you please add some infos about the Binder? I'm interested especially about at wills and level 1-3 encounter powers.




The generic at-will that binders get is called _shadow claws_, a cold attack that targets Fort and applies an effect that does damage if the target moves.

The gloom pact at-will _echoing dirge_ is a psychic blast that targets 1 or 2 creatures and pushes.  The star pact at-will _mind shadows_ is a psychic attack that makes the target unable to see allies 3 or more squares away.

Gloom pact binders get encounter powers called _hound of the dark omen_ (level 1 psychic power which pushes the target and does damage if the target moves) and _ebon claws_ (level 3 necrotic power that slows).  Star pact binders get _shadow tentacles_ (level 1 area burst that does cold damage and creates a zone) and _void blast_ (level 3 close blast that does psychic damage and creates obscured terrain).  That seems to be their shtick, actually, as many of the star pact binder encounter powers create short-term zones.



			
				Peraion Graufalke said:
			
		

> Are there any Level 1 Wizard Daily powers with the Cold keyword in HoS?




I do not see any, no.


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## GMforPowergamers (Apr 10, 2011)

last night well gameing we had a copy at the table, and I saw a few OMG things...


Cleric powers without attacks, less chance of crit, but no chance of miss.

A Daily vampre power with "Miss: this power is not expended" instead of calling it reliable.

A wizard *at will *with an *effect* that the target can't regain hp... we are already calling it troll killer. it allso has an attack/hit line with good damage.

all vampire powers except for the blood drain have level and class, so if another build came out in DDI you could swap powers... even for the 3rd level encounter

The binder warlock powers all have level and class so also swapable... infact I think those powers will get alot of use from other warlocks.

16th level vampire power making you not take damage from sunlight...


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## gyor (Apr 10, 2011)

The blackguards damage does seem okay for a striker. At with what I know so far. At epic dread smite(love the name) should deal on a hit 3xcharisma (ca, domination, and the powers flat charisma) +8 +strength mod +6 weapon enhancement + 2w +ongoing charisma+10. With frost cheese add 5 to the ongoing damage. If charisma and strength are each mod 7 and use mordraken hammer thats should be from 72 to 88, not including any none frost feats or if the monster fails the first save which jacks the damage up. Add another +2 to +8 if you use the blackguards universal at will. Add another 1d6 radiant if you cast bless weapon first. Fury would do less, but with trade offs.


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## Nausicaa (Apr 10, 2011)

Mentat55 said:


> The generic at-will that binders get is called _shadow claws_, a cold attack that targets Fort and applies an effect that does damage if the target moves.
> 
> The gloom pact at-will _echoing dirge_ is a psychic blast that targets 1 or 2 creatures and pushes.  The star pact at-will _mind shadows_ is a psychic attack that makes the target unable to see allies 3 or more squares away.
> 
> Gloom pact binders get encounter powers called _hound of the dark omen_ (level 1 psychic power which pushes the target and does damage if the target moves) and _ebon claws_ (level 3 necrotic power that slows).  Star pact binders get _shadow tentacles_ (level 1 area burst that does cold damage and creates a zone) and _void blast_ (level 3 close blast that does psychic damage and creates obscured terrain).  That seems to be their shtick, actually, as many of the star pact binder encounter powers create short-term zones.




Mind shadows seems quite a strong effect actually, for an at will. Grab me a couple of "can't leave the zone" powers and i'm with the star binder totally, even if the gloom seems quite convincing too.

The extra damage on hound of the dark omen or shadow claws procs also from forced movement or has the "willingly" condition? Is it a damage roll (unlikely)?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 10, 2011)

Nausicaa said:


> Mind shadows seems quite a strong effect actually, for an at will. Grab me a couple of "can't leave the zone" powers and i'm with the star binder totally, even if the gloom seems quite convincing too.
> 
> The extra damage on hound of the dark omen or shadow claws procs also from forced movement or has the "willingly" condition? Is it a damage roll (unlikely)?




The first refers to taking damage if it doesn't move. The latter takes damage if it moves on it's turn, but doesn't refer to willingly. So, if a bard put the daily on him that causes him to be unable to take move actions but get slid at start/end of his turn, for example, then he'd take the damage from sliding.

In both cases, the damage is fixed (2 + your secondary stat).


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## Insight (Apr 10, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Edit: Of course the genuine irony of the vampire is to abuse Half-Elf, take a vampire at-will with your racial and the feat that makes you count as MCing into vampire (due to taking their at-will). Then just paragon multiclass to steal the vampires best stuff without taking any of the disadvantages. The dominate power is a particularly good target for many cha primary classes.




You do realize, of course, that sometimes, there will be a DM around to say no to this idea.


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## Incenjucar (Apr 10, 2011)

Insight said:


> You do realize, of course, that sometimes, there will be a DM around to say no to this idea.




This is true of any idea.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 10, 2011)

Insight said:


> You do realize, of course, that sometimes, there will be a DM around to say no to this idea.




Then again, the half-elf needs to take about 5 feats and give up a real paragon path just to do it. [They would probably want the paragon feat to pick from other classes, since the vampire would only have one encounter power to steal until 17. Also, they'd still need either a good dex, or be a bard for an additional feat, to make good use of the other dex powers (like the encounter power), unless they are fine with wasting a feat to get an encounter power swapped but never doing so. And, they don't get access to the surge draining power, which is pretty much the thing that requires being offset by the flaw of few surges.


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## Nausicaa (Apr 10, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> The first refers to taking damage if it doesn't move. The latter takes damage if it moves on it's turn, but doesn't refer to willingly. So, if a bard put the daily on him that causes him to be unable to take move actions but get slid at start/end of his turn, for example, then he'd take the damage from sliding.
> 
> In both cases, the damage is fixed (2 + your secondary stat).




He'll take damage for sliding and from hypnotic pattern, or from defender mark triggering (if it slides, naturally). 

The damage won't be high at higher level but i suppose those are low-level effects. 6 kicker damage only for moving can't be ignored at level 1.

Could you please write me a couple of dailies? I know i'm very bothering x_x


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## UngeheuerLich (Apr 10, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> It's really not and I couldn't disagree with this idea more if I tried. The vampire being so on rails makes it one of the most bland and uninteresting classes in 4E. There will be no diversity practically between any two players and that's just boring.



Oh, of course it is...

not for the experienced player, but for new players of course...

taking quotes out of context is not a good way to prove something or someone wrong...

 I posted the follwing sentence elsewhere or i accidently cut it from my post, so i repeat it here:

"New multiclass rules and themes may make or break the vampire. "

If they get revised in a sensible way, the vampire will have enough choices...


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## gyor (Apr 11, 2011)

They are trying to build a guide to blackguards and vampires at the wotc forums. The vampire one doesn't seem like it has a lot of stuff in it, except humour, although I gave a few suggestions. Are vampire as weak as they say?
What is they're level 29 like and thier upper level assult power do for damage?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 11, 2011)

Nausicaa said:


> Could you please write me a couple of dailies? I know i'm very bothering x_x




For binders I'm assuming?

At level 1 you have a choice of a single target ranged attack. It does force damage and ongoing (on a hit), and the enemy can take a move action to make an opposed Acro or Athletics check against you to end the damage (or save). The other is an area burst 1, deals necro damage and immobilizes (save ends) on a hit, half damage and slows (save ends) on a miss, as an effect it creates an encounter long zone which immobilizes until EoNT any creature that willingly enters the zone.

At 5 you have a choice of a single target ranged attack, effectively reliable, deals cold damage and slows (s/e) on a hit. The other is an area burst 1, deals necrotic damage and slow (s/e) on a hit, as an effect creates an encounterlong zone which gives you an at-will OA that triggers off an enemy entering the zone willingly or ending it's turn there. It deals fixed damage (5+Cha mod necro) and slows (s/e). If they are already slow when you hit them with that power it instead immobilizes and 10 ongoing necro (s/e both).


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## kaomera (Apr 11, 2011)

UngeheuerLich said:


> not for the experienced player, but for new players of course...



I don't think it matters if you're an experienced player or a new player. Some new players may well benefit from additional simplicity, but others are going to want the same choices as "everybody else". Meanwhile, I'm an experienced player and the vampire totally doesn't bother me on the basis that it's very pre-fab. Sure, if we had a party with several vampires it could, possibly get a bit stale. But most of the play I'm actually interested in happens at the table, not in front of the CB, so what you do with your "stuff" means a lot more to me than what "stuff" you've got.

The vampire is an option (actually there are still some meaningful choices to be made, but let's gloss over that distinction for a second). Most other classes, when you compare them on this basis, are a _whole bunch_ of options. I can totally see an argument that the vampire is less efficient use of space than a class like the blackguard. But it's not like it's bad design just because it has fewer decision points during character creation, IMO.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 11, 2011)

gyor said:


> They are trying to build a guide to blackguards and vampires at the wotc forums. The vampire one doesn't seem like it has a lot of stuff in it, except humour, although I gave a few suggestions. Are vampire as weak as they say?
> What is they're level 29 like and thier upper level assult power do for damage?




29 -> 7d6+dex mod damage to each target (all enemies in close blast 5). 

Their 17 encounter deals 3d12+Dex mod against a single target. Spending a surge either makes it all enemies in close blast 1 or deals 3d10 extra damage to a single target.


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## Aegeri (Apr 11, 2011)

UngeheuerLich said:


> "New multiclass rules and themes may make or break the vampire. "



That's a sure way of ensuring it's doomed. Wizards have been pretty bad at supporting anything outside of Wizards/Clerics/Fighters for a while now. Look at the Runepriest, Artificer, Seeker and DDI Assassin who have all been out for a considerable amount of time and left to die. It's becoming pretty clear the idea that all classes should see regular support in 4E no longer exists.

So if the Vampire is a limited on rails class now, that's exactly how it is going to remain until 5E is published.


Insight said:


> You do realize, of course, that sometimes, there will be a DM around to say no to this idea.



DM's are entirely welcome not to follow RAW and arbitrarily punish someone for spending something like 5 feats minimum (IIRC) to do this. It's not like vampire powers are very good (the opposite in fact), but at least this way some of their more neat stuff can get used. Especially in my games this is probably the only way I could see them being used. I honestly don't see anyone ever playing a vampire any time soon, unless they were willing to put in the work optimizing it so it was oassassin levels of bad.


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## LordArchaon (Apr 11, 2011)

*Blackguard till 4th level?*

First of all, many many thanks to the lucky ones with the book for their patience in answering all the questions! I've never get past a n00b status here on EN World, so I don't know how to give xp or comment single posts, but... Yeah.

My question might as well have a null answer: what does the Blackguard get at 3rd level? Or 4th? I guess next to nothing, but I would appreciate it very much if somebody could tell me that, for I'm going to build one for a PbP adventure! 

Oh, I guess the 2nd level utilities would be icing on the cake, maybe just the Fury one if they're too long..? Thank you very much!


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 11, 2011)

LordArchaon said:


> First of all, many many thanks to the lucky ones with the book for their patience in answering all the questions! I've never get past a n00b status here on EN World, so I don't know how to give xp or comment single posts, but... Yeah.
> 
> My question might as well have a null answer: what does the Blackguard get at 3rd level? Or 4th? I guess next to nothing, but I would appreciate it very much if somebody could tell me that, for I'm going to build one for a PbP adventure!
> 
> Oh, I guess the 2nd level utilities would be icing on the cake, maybe just the Fury one if they're too long..? Thank you very much!




At 2 they get Vice's Reward. It's an encounter power that gives temp hitpoints, a saving throw and a bonus to defenses until end of next turn.

At 3 they get a second use of Dread Smite.

At 4 they get their Servant of Vice, daily conjuration which can be asked questions, and also serves as a means of getting combat advantage.


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## LordArchaon (Apr 11, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> At 2 they get Vice's Reward. It's an encounter power that gives temp hitpoints, a saving throw and a bonus to defenses until end of next turn.
> 
> At 3 they get a second use of Dread Smite.
> 
> At 4 they get their Servant of Vice, daily conjuration which can be asked questions, and also serves as a means of getting combat advantage.



Whoa, that was quick, thanks! I feel stupid though, it had already been previewed mostly! Strangely enough, second level is the most problematic... It's actually not swappable? I mean, it doesn't specify 2nd level in the power entry? And can you actually stat the bonuses? Thanks again!


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 11, 2011)

LordArchaon said:


> Whoa, that was quick, thanks! I feel stupid though, it had already been previewed mostly! Strangely enough, second level is the most problematic... It's actually not swappable? I mean, it doesn't specify 2nd level in the power entry? And can you actually stat the bonuses? Thanks again!




The level 2 utility is numbered, so it should be swappable, it's just the only option presented in the book.

THP is 5 per tier, and the defense bonus is +2.


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## LordArchaon (Apr 11, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> The level 2 utility is numbered, so it should be swappable, it's just the only option presented in the book.
> 
> THP is 5 per tier, and the defense bonus is +2.



I can finally build my Blackguard, thanks A LOT!!


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## Nausicaa (Apr 11, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> For binders I'm assuming?
> 
> At level 1 you have a choice of a single target ranged attack. It does force damage and ongoing (on a hit), and the enemy can take a move action to make an opposed Acro or Athletics check against you to end the damage (or save). The other is an area burst 1, deals necro damage and immobilizes (save ends) on a hit, half damage and slows (save ends) on a miss, as an effect it creates an encounter long zone which immobilizes until EoNT any creature that willingly enters the zone.
> 
> At 5 you have a choice of a single target ranged attack, effectively reliable, deals cold damage and slows (s/e) on a hit. The other is an area burst 1, deals necrotic damage and slow (s/e) on a hit, as an effect creates an encounterlong zone which gives you an at-will OA that triggers off an enemy entering the zone willingly or ending it's turn there. It deals fixed damage (5+Cha mod necro) and slows (s/e). If they are already slow when you hit them with that power it instead immobilizes and 10 ongoing necro (s/e both).




Mmm ok... it seems these dailies are a mixed bag, nothing serious. Probably you are going better taking old starlock or feylock dailies, which have a really strong innate control.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 11, 2011)

Nausicaa said:


> Mmm ok... it seems these dailies are a mixed bag, nothing serious. Probably you are going better taking old starlock or feylock dailies, which have a really strong innate control.




It does depend on what you are looking for. The overall theme of the 'binder' seems to fit it's name, tying up enemies though imobilzation, slowing, and putting them in zones that are diffcult to leave, etc. They are more of a "we'll deal with you later" type of controller than the kind that debuffs someone to help focus fire on it.


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## Destil (Apr 11, 2011)

UngeheuerLich said:


> I am currently trying to teach an old ADnD player how that game works... and choices at level 1 are overwhelming.




Note: This is basically what the "builds" for each class are. All your level one choices.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 11, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> It's really not and I couldn't disagree with this idea more if I tried. The vampire being so on rails makes it one of the most bland and uninteresting classes in 4E. There will be no diversity practically between any two players and that's just boring.




Each person has their own preferences, of course.  However, I can tell you from experience that sometimes less choice IS better.

Most classes in D&D/1e/2e had virtually no choices at all at first level.  Basically your only choice was what weapon you'd use and your character's personality.  But for most people, that was enough to differentiate 2 players.  And most people played only one D&D game that would go on for a year or two before switching characters.  So, you'd see a maximum of 2 fighters in that time.

Back when we played 2e, it was understood that 2 players of any one class were going to be identical.  So, if you didn't want to be the same as someone else, you chose a class no one else was playing.  Even classes that had some choice ended up pretty much identical.  There were only so many good 1st level spells, so every wizard had some variation on the same spells.

When we switched to 3e, there was a LOT more choice.  Between feats, multiclassing each time you leveled, many more books coming out, and so on....No two characters were exactly the same.  But with the benefit that brought, it also brought just as many problems.

It wasn't until recently that I realized how much I missed a LACK of options.  The simple fact remains that more options means more that all the members of the group have to know and keep track of(especially the DM), and it means the more opportunity there is for power gaming and min-maxing.  More choices=more broken.  It's that simple.

That's why my game recently switched to essentials only.  So far, it has caused the players in the game to concentrate more on what's going on IN the game and less on spending weeks scouring message boards and books looking for the perfect power to take each time they level.


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## Zaran (Apr 11, 2011)

Neonchameleon said:


> The thing here is that some people like fewer options and less analysis paralysis when character building. It's like the Slayer. I'm not going to want to play a slayer ever; it strikes me as rigid and tactically dull. But there are a couple of players at each of my 4e tables who _prefer_ this over the more intricate orthodox fighters.
> 
> And there might not be much diversity between two vampires - but so what? There's a lot of clear water between a vampire and _any other class_. And when you're breaking the class mold it's much more sensible to lock down the options to prevent accidental monsters being created.




I always felt that the Essentials characters were all designed for people who didn't want to make alot of descisions.   While I do not want to play an eCharacter, the fact that they exist didn't bother me because I happen to know at least one player that would be perfectly happy with that kind of character.  But having no power choices at all?  I think that goes against the idea of 4th edition's versatility.


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## UngeheuerLich (Apr 11, 2011)

Destil said:


> Note: This is basically what the "builds" for each class are. All your level one choices.



Too bad, i can´t go into builder and select the choice and have a character.

The idea with builds is good. Heroes Books just take it a bit further. With better integration, builds would be great.

All in all, slayers and knights are also builds of the same class. You can swap most powers with each other. Hunter and scout also share the same powers.

Again: a good class design would be a very low number pf choices at level 1 and some small choices spread over each level. But choices that are mostly independant from each other. D&D 3.5 only had very narrow classes, but multiclassing and prestige classes allowed for variety, so did feats.

Classes besides the fighter would have been a lot better supported, if there didn´t have to be a 2-weapon fighter build. If multiclass rules allowed for a relative easy way to get 2 weapon fighting work (more easy power swaps, less feat intensive), we had saved a lot of trouble.

So I am still willing to defend my point: more streamlined classes, more easily accesible multiclassing. Maybe themes. And even with streamlined options, your choices are overwhelming. (Not that most PHB 1 classes had a choice in their powers at level 1...)


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## Gladius Legis (Apr 12, 2011)

Can you give a rundown of the daily powers Blackguards get in Paragon and Epic Tiers?


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 12, 2011)

Gladius Legis said:


> Can you give a rundown of the daily powers Blackguards get in Paragon and Epic Tiers?




At 15 there are two "Avatar" powers. Basically rages for Blackguards. Melee attack, 3[W] damage, half on a miss. A of Slaughter gives you a +4 to damage rolls, and 1/round when you hit you can cleave for 10 necro into another enemy. A of Subjucation gives you +2 to attack rolls, 5 thp at the start of each turn and 1/round as a minor you can deal 5 dmg to an ally to give them 10thp.

At 19 you get smites. These are No Actions that trigger off hitting with an at-will against an adjacent enemy. [BTW, these are just fine for Challadins, they don't reference Strength or Charisma for that matter] Plundering Smite adds 10 necro, plus an additional 10 ongoing necro (s/e), with a -2 to the saves, and you get 10 hp each time the target takes the ongoing damge. Ruinous Smite deals 25 extra damage, knocks the target prone and it can't stand up while you are adjacent to it (s/e). You end up granting c/a until EoNT though.

25 has a choice between Ravenous Shadows and Venemous Infection. The former conjures a sustainable wall of darkness that emits cold/necro damage, and when it appears you make an atack against any in or adjacent to the wall to immobilizes until EoNT, and slides them into the wall if they were adjacent. It is a weapon atack, so no holy symbol necessary. The latter is a weapon attack that deals ongoing acid/poison damage. When the target first becomes bloodies, or dies, it deals auto acid/poison damage in a close blast 3 [you determine direction from the source.]

At 29, there is one option given, Avatar of Vice. 5[w], half on miss. It's effects are that you deal extra necro damage equal to CHA mod, you get 10 thp [or add 5 to the thp you get from the power] when you hit 1/turn, and your dread smite becomes rechargeable   when you have none left.


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 12, 2011)

Just as a little aside:

I thought I'd mention that while the vampire's blood drinker is a No Action power, as is the assassin's strike, the Dread Smite for the Blackguard is a Free Action. [Both Blood Drinker and Dread Smite's extra uses come with the caveat restricts them to 1/turn]


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## gyor (Apr 12, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> At 15 there are two "Avatar" powers. Basically rages for Blackguards. Melee attack, 3[W] damage, half on a miss. A of Slaughter gives you a +4 to damage rolls, and 1/round when you hit you can cleave for 10 necro into another enemy. A of Subjucation gives you +2 to attack rolls, 5 thp at the start of each turn and 1/round as a minor you can deal 5 dmg to an ally to give them 10thp.
> 
> At 19 you get smites. These are No Actions that trigger off hitting with an at-will against an adjacent enemy. [BTW, these are just fine for Challadins, they don't reference Strength or Charisma for that matter] Plundering Smite adds 10 necro, plus an additional 10 ongoing necro (s/e), with a -2 to the saves, and you get 10 hp each time the target takes the ongoing damge. Ruinous Smite deals 25 extra damage, knocks the target prone and it can't stand up while you are adjacent to it (s/e). You end up granting c/a until EoNT though.
> 
> ...




Venomous infection sounds gross. I like it. Actually all the powers sound cool.


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## Aegeri (Apr 12, 2011)

Avatar of Vice sounds like an amazing power in a long difficult level 30 end of game fight. I'm actually trying to think if there is anywhere else that a PC can basically turn a power into a monster like recharge power. I think that's a neat idea and a good mechanic, especially for keeping a long fight like that going.


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## LordArchaon (Apr 12, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Avatar of Vice sounds like an amazing power in a long difficult level 30 end of game fight. I'm actually trying to think if there is anywhere else that a PC can basically turn a power into a monster like recharge power. I think that's a neat idea and a good mechanic, especially for keeping a long fight like that going.



And especially for a border-line evil class such as Blackguard!


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## LordArchaon (Apr 12, 2011)

Also, you may want to take a look at my Shade Blackguard idea, I've made a blog about it on Wizard's community. It's inspired by this:







...


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## Argyle King (Apr 12, 2011)

What options are available in the book for someone who doesn't want a 'class on rails?'

I'm the type of guy who regularly multiclasses (even PMCing sometimes,) and likes a bit of freedom in my character design.  Speaking of multiclassing, how does it work with some of the new classes?


(To clarify, I'm only vaguely familiar with Essentials, so the 'on rails' comment is mostly based upon reviews given by others and what little I've seen in play.)


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## WalterKovacs (Apr 12, 2011)

Johnny3D3D said:


> What options are available in the book for someone who doesn't want a 'class on rails?'
> 
> I'm the type of guy who regularly multiclasses (even PMCing sometimes,) and likes a bit of freedom in my character design. Speaking of multiclassing, how does it work with some of the new classes?
> 
> ...




The vampire and executioner are very much "on rails". They are designed in such a way where the former, as the only version of the class, has no other options outside the book to swap in and the latter, having no at-wills, encounters or dailies with an actual level number, can't take anything but utility powers, feats and paragon paths from the other Assassin. The vampire can multiclass, he does have powers that are swappable (he does get a numberless encounter power, but he also gets one at 3, which is replaced at 17, which can be power swapped for a multiclass power). The executioner is pretty much screwed for multiclassing, he has nothing that would work for power swapping (except utilities). 

As far as multiclassing into a class goes, there are no new multiclass feats in the book. The only way "in" to the vampire at the moment is the half-elf feat which let's you count as m/c'ing with the class you got your dilletante power from (as well as making the attack charisma based). This can be nice with the vamp since you can grab the attack that gives Cha mod thp, and then later grab the charisma based dominate dailies.

The blackguard, has his encounter power set in stone, but his dailies and utility powers are all level numbered, so he can freely grab from normal paladin builds if he wanted to. Similarly, paladins get more options to use from the blackguard pool, including at-wills they can take. They can multiclass swap anything, except for encounter powers.

The binder is like the warpriest. It is given a suite of encounter powers based on their pact (as well as their at-will), but their dailies and utilities can choose from anywhere. All the options are available to the original warlock classes (although the at-wills are a bit hard to get with all the warlocks having their at-wills on rails outside of hybrid or human, etc). They can multiclass fully as all the powers have a level.

The death domain warpriest, the gloom pact hexblade and the necro/nethermancer mage are all more of the same from the previous essential book (although the Death domain warpriest is implement based instead of weapon based). Of the Ebook classes, mage and warpriest are the least on rails of any of them.

Basically a mage is pretty much the same as a wizard, but has prefered keywords for spells instead of an implement that may prefer something like save/ends effects. The warpriest has some of his powers picked for him by his domain. The fighter, on the other hand, has no daily powers and is given a single encounter power multiple times, so his only choices are utilities and at-will stances. So the 'on-rails' is refering to classes that assign you powers insead of letting you pick them (like the original warlock did with your at-wills).

As far as multiclassing with essential stuff in general, there is really only the old multiclass feats so far. Some classes can't paragon multiclass (well, they can, but you'll be getting less use out of some of the feats because they won't, for example, have an encounter power or daily power to swap out) but there is supposed to be an feats article this month to address some of that.


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## Tony Vargas (Apr 14, 2011)

Johnny3D3D said:


> What options are available in the book for someone who doesn't want a 'class on rails?'



The casters.  The two Mage builds (schools), Nethermancer & Necromancer, are wide-open choice-wise, you can mix and match thier spells, or use spells from one of the three schools in HotFL.  The one Domain for Warpriests given is prettymuch a set of rails, but you're free to swap in power choices from the other two domains in HotFL, so you can jump them with minimal effort.


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