# Cleric and Paladin - What's the Difference?



## Snoweel (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm talking from an in-game point of view here - what's the difference between these two classes?

They both seem to be independent holy warriors of the various deities.

Is there any difference between what these two classes actually *do* in the world?

Your thoughts...?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 8, 2008)

Clerics are retail, Paladins are BtB.

On a more serious note, I think there are a lot of ways to handle their differences, but one thing I think is clearly significant is that Clerics get the free ritual casting feat where Paladins start with training in the heaviest armor in the game and shields.  The Paladin is clearly the combat specialist to the clerics combat trained medic and officer.


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## Snoweel (Jul 8, 2008)

"BtB"?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 8, 2008)

Business to Business.

Clerics go out and help the community.  Paladins help the temple and are more directly specialized in opposing threats to the institution like monsters or wicked cults.


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## Intense_Interest (Jul 8, 2008)

I think that depends on how you construct your World as a GM and how the players want the Class to act- if they play Pallies as Jocks and Clerics as Nerds, then the populous will have a pretty good distinction.  If it is rare to even see a Classed character OR if the classes basically act close together (under some over-arching Theology and Dogma, likely), then it'd be more like how most people differentiate between SWAT and a detective: with their work-clothes on.


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## CountPopeula (Jul 8, 2008)

The way I see it, Clerics are priests spreading the word of their god and being ambassadors of their faith. Paladins are the inquisition who punish the heretics.


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## Corjay (Jul 8, 2008)

Authority?

A Cleric is ordained and a Paladin isn't?



"I don't make the law, I just enforce it with my mighty Avenger and my dashing good looks."


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## renatoram (Jul 8, 2008)

Well, if you look at the religions in dnd in a way that is vaguely resembling the real world catholic orders (and the cleric and paladin share an origin in those cultural whereabouts), it's relatively simple:

Cleric: he's a real priest. He takes all the vows, is fully ordained, is a part of the church's power chain/structure (i.e. could become bishop, or equivalent), and normally administers sacraments, sanctifies weddings, blesses the cattle, and so on. He's the guy that preaches in the temple.[*]

Paladin: he's a soldier. He's taken only some of the vows and cannot preach, or administer sacraments. He's a man of faith, but not a priest. Basically, it's modeled after the Teutonic Knight, or the Templar Knight. They took only some of the vows of the monastic orders, and were militant orders.

[*] and yeah, DnD's cleric is much more 'action oriented', what with all that mace swinging and kobold bashing, but let's say that in a world with so many deities and dangerous creatures you can expect a priest to take some interest in his personal safety while traveling through the heathens


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## hong (Jul 8, 2008)

Cleric --> prophet. Flamestrike is pure Old skool Testament!


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## Weregrognard (Jul 8, 2008)

I think their roles as defenders vs. leaders are part of the answer, even if it's a bit metagamey.  To put it simply, cleric is to paladin what warlord is to fighter.  I can easily see a cleric leading a company of paladins in holy battle.


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## Tonguez (Jul 8, 2008)

renatoram said:


> Paladin: he's a soldier. He's taken only some of the vows and cannot preach, or administer sacraments. He's a man of faith, but not a priest. Basically, it's modeled after the Teutonic Knight, or the Templar Knight. They took only some of the vows of the monastic orders, and were militant orders.





see I'd see this as a better definition of the DnD cleric ie - 
The DnD Cleric is a Temple Knight, an ordained member of a holy order dedicated to defending the Faith 

A Paladin is the *chosen champion* of the Diety *inspired * by divine might to manifest the Divine Law

The difference then is one of inspiration and mandate - the Cleric is mandated by the Church/Faith and is part of the system

The Paladin (like the Prophet) is mandated directly by the Diety

The Priest (who performs the sacraments and ministers to the faithful) is probably an Expert, maybe an Adept or a Bard...


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## The Lost Muse (Jul 8, 2008)

THe paladin I'm currently playing is much more of an uplift the meek, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick, kind of guy than the cleric in the party. I'm playing him up as humble and devout.


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## pawsplay (Jul 8, 2008)

Since Clerics now bring the smack down, too, the differences are primarily in terms of roles rather than occupations. Being a paladin or cleric is no longer a specific cultural role, but a power role.


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## Wolfwood2 (Jul 8, 2008)

pawsplay said:


> Since Clerics now bring the smack down, too, the differences are primarily in terms of roles rather than occupations. Being a paladin or cleric is no longer a specific cultural role, but a power role.




Right.  There's no reason a paladin and a cleric couldn't have identical roles in a game world.

Now there is a bit more of a push towards clerics as "bookish", seeing as how they get ritual casting for free.


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## Mercule (Jul 8, 2008)

Depends on the edition.  In 1e, the cleric was the warrior arm of the church and represented them in the field.  Their inspiration was explicitly drawn from Knight Templar and their ilk.  Paladins were the knights in shining armor whose virtue was such that God favored them.  Despite the officially polytheistic assumed setting, the archetypes were still drawn from Medieval Christendom.

In 2e, the cleric attempted to take a desk job and the paladin had to pick up the slack (which he did poorly, IMO).  The clerical mechanics reflected polytheism much, much better, but could be unbalanced in practical game play (i.e. it was possible to build both a cleric who wasn't jack as an adventurer and one who was still a Templar).

In 3e, neither class really figured out which mold they want to fit.  It was at least implied that paladins were semi-ordained holy warriors.  But, clerics were still battle-ready priests who easily outclassed any purely mystically focused breathren.

I haven't played enough 4e to tell you for sure, but it seems the 3e schizophrenia has been carried over somewhat.  It seems better, but still present.  This is probably because of the explicit focus on combat ability, but I'd prefer the cleric to straddle the leader/controller line more than the leader/defender one.  Maybe we'll get a "priest" class later that does just that.

On a similar note, I could see the favored soul reappearing as divine striker.  I wouldn't expect wings (which is a good thing IMO).  Rather, I'd expect it to be the answer to the question "What would a warlock look like if they made a pact with a god or angel?"


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## Leatherhead (Jul 8, 2008)

Paladins are warrior-monks.
Clerics are warrior-priests.


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 8, 2008)

Snoweel said:


> Is there any difference between what these two classes actually *do* in the world?



Classes are a game construct, they don't do anything in the world.


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## Snoweel (Jul 9, 2008)

Doug McCrae said:


> Classes are a game construct, they don't do anything in the world.




I'm starting to lean this way to be honest.

The difference between a cleric and a paladin is likely the same as the difference between any two clerics or between any two paladins.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 9, 2008)

In my last campaign Clerics were defined most by their relationship to their temple hierarchy, while Paladins were defined most by a direct relationship ("calling") from their god.

I would agree that the differentiation between them has often been a little wonky at times !


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## Snoweel (Jul 9, 2008)

In the 3e version of my homebrew Paladins were the servants of the only good (but dead) deity in my cosmology.

But I'm trying to embrace the 4e implied setting.


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## Minigiant (Jul 9, 2008)

The Cleric is the manual. The Paladin is troubleshooting.
Clerics tell you what is bad and tells you how to stop it (vaccine). Paladins prevent the bad from getting you should you be unable to stop it (cure).


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## Snoweel (Jul 9, 2008)

Minigiant said:


> The Cleric is the manual. The Paladin is troubleshooting.
> Clerics tell you what is bad and tells you how to stop it (vaccine). Paladins prevent the bad from getting you should you be unable to stop it (cure).




This doesn't account for classless NPC priests or the clerics' myriad combat abilities.


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## Steely Dan (Jul 9, 2008)

I think Paladins are more focused on advocating and avenging a specific god, whereas Clerics are broader in divine concept.


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## Celtavian (Jul 9, 2008)

*re*

I'm assuming it is somewhat based on the delineation between a priest and a knight in history. The holy knight was able to shed blood and trained in arms, and the priest wasn't allowed to shed blood (thus the use of a mace) and was ordained and spent a great deal of time overseeing flocks of worshippers. I think that is where part of the archetype difference for Paladins and Clerics come from.


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## Ahnehnois (Jul 9, 2008)

The cleric is the primary manifestation of divine power-a sacred person.

The paladin is a highly specific holy warrior type that essentially falls within the same niche but is in the 4e PHB because it was in the last PHB-a sacred cow.

If there was one sacred cow of a class I wanted slaughtered for 4e, it was the paladin.


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## small pumpkin man (Jul 9, 2008)

Ahnehnois said:


> The cleric is the primary manifestation of divine power-a sacred person.
> 
> The paladin is a highly specific holy warrior type that essentially falls within the same niche but is in the 4e PHB because it was in the last PHB-a sacred cow.
> 
> If there was one sacred cow of a class I wanted slaughtered for 4e, it was the paladin.



No, from a PCs point of view, they're quite different, they do different things. The Paladin does not _play_ the same as the Cleric, this is all they need to exist. It's not like the 4e team was timid in their cow killing.

However, sure, from the worlds perspective, the only difference is that the Cleric is often better educated. This is only a general statement, not a rule however.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 9, 2008)

Right, in addition to the very game world concrete differences in weapons and rituals training, there's one other important game world difference I could think of beyond potentially recognizable powers:

The Cleric's Healing Word power spends the target's healing surges.

The Paladin's Lay on Hands spends his own healing surges.

That's a pretty big difference in terms of flavor.


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## hamishspence (Jul 9, 2008)

*Alignment*

Paladin must start out with the alignment of his deity.
Clerics are more flexible.

as for the role, I see Clerics as part of the hierarchy: the head of the religion would be a cleric, but the Paladins are the soldiers, guards, knightly types.


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## Sigurd (Jul 9, 2008)

You can't bring realism into this...

The Paladin is an unrealistic holy warrior without game required holy duties or particular obligations. He/She is dedicated without anything clear to be dedicated to.

The Cleric is even more unrealistic without a necessary God to please or a congregation to lead. He/She is dedicated without anything clear to be dedicated to.

In many campaigns both adventure their whole careers without ever setting foot in their own deity's place of worship or receiving a single instruction that furthers their 'church'.

But they're so devout they get magic powers so its all good. 


Sigurd


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## Mercule (Jul 9, 2008)

Doug McCrae said:


> Classes are a game construct, they don't do anything in the world.






Snoweel said:


> I'm starting to lean this way to be honest.



I've been pushing this since 1e.  I set up an organization of "Rangers" that dealt with supernatural threats.  They were primarily martial, but had a strong contingent of wizards.  It was pretty funny the first time I got to say "the Ranger casts _disintegrate_."

Paladin, IMC, also refers to martial followers of a specific sun god.  Some are hobgoblins.


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## Jhaelen (Jul 9, 2008)

Steely Dan said:


> I think Paladins are more focused on advocating and avenging a specific god, whereas Clerics are broader in divine concept.



Which, interestingly, is exactly the reverse of what the relationships between Paladins/Clerics and deities was in 3E (at least in my campaign world). Paladins were the champions of 'good', i.e. more of an abstract principle, while clerics chose to dedicate themselves to a certain temple (and thus the worship of one or several related deities).

But I agree with the notion that character classes in 4E are not really meant to represent a certain group or cultural role in societies. For me they're just building blocks to realize a certain character concept. Their background is entirely up to the player.


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## Thunderfoot (Jul 10, 2008)

It's pretty much been stated over and over that the Medieval - Renaissance Knight and Priest (specifically the Crusaders) are the "proposed" template for these two classes, but I think they way they have been instituted, the wrong side of the Crusades was used....

For me the priest is much closer to the Imam or Alim of the Saracen opposition, leading the people in word and occasionally in deed to spread their faith, the paladin being the Holy Warrior or Jihadist sworn to cut out heresy or opposition like a cancer with their blades of truth, a more, shoot first ask questions later kind of guy.  However, alignment seemed to blur that line in all the previous editions (and just sifts them together in this one.)

Frankly, an Islamic setting seems to have always been easier to create within the rules than a faux European one; even with the Eastern monks.  Which is a shame, because I really love D&D and the 'classic' European settings and the Middle-Eastern settings have all pretty much fallen flat. (I'm looking at you Al Qadim).

As far as 4e is concerned I can't see a way to make anything resembling anything else without a few adjustments.  PoL just whitewashes everything so badly that there really isn't anything interesting to work with.

YMMV - 
Thunderfoot ~ currently working on the Cleric and Paladin to make them more accessible in my game.


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