# ICv2's Latest Quarterly Chart: D&D Top, But PF2 Is Strong



## DaveMage (Jan 3, 2020)

Yeah, it's weird that Starfinder went from #2 to off the list in 1 quarter.


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## TwoSix (Jan 3, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> Yeah, it's weird that Starfinder went from #2 to off the list in 1 quarter.



I'm just spitballing, but I wonder if there's an implication that there's a fairly large group of Paizo loyalists who will move from game to game.  It's also possible that Starfinder didn't have any large releases in the time period, but I don't follow it enough to know.

Happy to hear PF2 is doing well, I picked up the core rulebook for Christmas and I have to say the system is really growing on me.


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## JFranklin3000 (Jan 3, 2020)

I think Starfinder only had Adventure releases during that quarter. Alien Archive 3 and the Character Operation Manual were in Q3 and/or Q4


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## theapoapostolov (Jan 3, 2020)

Paizo had major delays with selling worldwide with Pathfinder 2E. I remember I waited 2 months for my Special Edition Corebook and Bestiary, only arrived in early October via distributors like Blackfire and Asmodee. So I think much of the worldwide sales would be in Q3.


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## EthanSental (Jan 3, 2020)

I always felt that starfinder was a bridge revenue stream while sales dropped from PF1 and leading into PF2 release.

and what does hobby stores can’t compete with WOTC directly?  They don’t sell directly like Paizo.


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## JFranklin3000 (Jan 3, 2020)

EthanSental said:


> I always felt that starfinder was a bridge revenue stream while sales dropped from PF1 and leading into PF2 release.
> 
> and what does hobby stores can’t compete with WOTC directly?  They don’t sell directly like Paizo.



From the context, even though D&D is getting bigger the FLGS's aren't seeing much of an increase in their sales. Still there best seller, but sales are not growing at the same rate as the popularity. 

And when the refer to WotC I think they are refering to DM's Guild. So PDF sales, even though that isn't really WotC selling directly.


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## darjr (Jan 3, 2020)

It isn’t really growing at Amazon either. More like super high steady sales. Dang have times changed. Used to be D&D was an afterthought at most FLGS.


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## univoxs (Jan 3, 2020)

My two tables put a lot of effort into Starfinder but both groups found, they just didn't like it. I am not suprised  by the drop off.


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## Dave2 (Jan 3, 2020)

Shadow run 6e is news despite some negative views on drivethru and dome streams. It still seems to be selling well. That is good news. Liked the system despite sun rough edges.


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## Dave2 (Jan 3, 2020)

Sorry meant to say some steams.


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## Dave2 (Jan 3, 2020)

Also really like  Pathfinder 2. I think it was the release schedule for Starfinder. I like it also.


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## unknowable (Jan 3, 2020)

I am a Pf2e fan, it has managed to fill a fantasy RPG void that wasn't already filled.

5e is my medium fantasy sandbox system.

PF2e is my high fantasy heroes journey system

B/X is my old school keep on the borderlands style system (high risk, high reward)

Conan 2d20 (heavily altered) is my low fantasy low magic. 

Forbidden Lands is my westmarches style fantasy. 

The only thing that is missing is a solid horror fantasy setting, symbaroum has the art but the rules are too empowering to allow for much horror. 

Shadow of the demon king stops being threatening quick and suffers from Symbaroum issues without the nuance of world building.

What an age to be alive for a RPG fan though.


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## mrm1138 (Jan 3, 2020)

unknowable said:


> Conan 2d20 (heavily altered) is my low fantasy low magic.




Out of curiosity, what alterations do you make?


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## Umbran (Jan 3, 2020)

darjr said:


> It isn’t really growing at Amazon either. More like super high steady sales.




Well, note:  Steady high sales likely means growth of the gaming population.  I mean, unless the same people have been re-buying the PHB over and over for five years, those books are going into new hands.


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## darjr (Jan 3, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Well, note:  Steady high sales likely means growth of the gaming population.  I mean, unless the same people have been re-buying the PHB over and over for five years, those books are going into new hands.



Yup, but the stores are complaining about growth in sales.


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## Umbran (Jan 3, 2020)

darjr said:


> Yup, but the stores are complaining about growth in sales.




Well, that's something to ask my game-store-owning friend.  Not about growth in sales, but in growth in use of his gaming space, and the income from that.

Game stores cannot expect to compete or keep up with Amazon for outright sales.  While Amazon has mostly killed big box bookstores, the independent booksellers seem to be recovering, using their community aspects.  The equivalent of that for game stores is probably in-store play.










						Bookstores Find Growth as ‘Anchors of Authenticity’ (Published 2019)
					

Big chains once posed a threat, but independents are thriving by hosting events, adding nonbook merchandise and becoming community hubs.




					www.nytimes.com


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## Ghost2020 (Jan 3, 2020)

I have to say that Starfinder has slid right off my shelf as well.
It didn't click with me, but I kept a few modules, maps, and the Pact Worlds book for use in other scifi games.


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## Jimmy Dick (Jan 4, 2020)

I can't see the sales chart as I'm not a subscriber of ICv2. I'd like to see if they lumped PF1 and PF2 together or not. I know it sold extremely well via Amazon upon release, but I don't know about sales after August. Everywhere I look, PF2 play is picking up. I run PFS exclusively and my lodges are growing because of PF2.


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## TrippyHippy (Jan 4, 2020)

The presence of Pathfinder and Shadowrun 6 is predictable, given their new editions. Starfinder, in effect, was a placeholder for the Pathfinder market as they went through a transitional period. Not sure it will last much beyond it, unless they make a 2nd edition of it to tie in with the Pathfinder 2nd edition. It’s not looking likely that they’ll overtake D&D again though - and it’s not clear what the drop off of sales numbers from 1st place to 2nd place is (or any other place, for that matter). As such, the actual share of the market _could_ be less than before - but we wouldn’t know without more information. However, wherever D&D is sold in game stores, you tend to find Pathfinder as it’s main competitor. Many retailers don’t stock anything other than these two brands.

Shadowrun, like Vampire, had some negativity on release from some fans - but then their respective fanbases are relatively large compared with other games. While other games may get a dozen or so highly positive reviews and seem universally liked, Shadowrun might get 40-50 reviews with an increase in the number of negative reviews included, even though it’s selling much more units overall. The competition between Shadowrun and Cyberpunk Red will be interesting to observe in the next cycle.

Vampire: The Masquerade has held firm in it’s top 5 placements for the last three quarters - indicating that the latent World of Darkness market lost a decade ago can still be tapped into, and the distribution channels are good enough to maintain their retail presence. I think Vampire has a slightly different market to D&D and many other RPGS anyway - more adult-only orientated and enticing to more female audiences, for example. It’s not necessarily the crowd that is well represented on this site. Notably, however, it’s overtaken FFGs Star Wars, despite not producing any new products in the last quarter. Modiphius and The Onyx Path do have some supplements coming however, so they look to be in a strong position moving forward.

Star Wars, judging on the lukewarm reception of the last movie, may be dipping in interest a little and there doesn’t seem to be much more supplements or development coming for the existing games. I wonder whether the Dune merchandise, including a RPG and upcoming movie, might tap into the public imagination in the coming year?


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## ddaley (Jan 4, 2020)

univoxs said:


> My two tables put a lot of effort into Starfinder but both groups found, they just didn't like it. I am not suprised  by the drop off.




I was really looking forward to Starfinder, because I have been wanting to play a d20 sci fi game.  But, I just haven't been excited about the APs released.  If they release an AP that I can get into, then we will likely try it.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time or energy to write my own adventures these days (though, I have been thinking about attempting said feat more and more lately)... especially for a new system.

I would also like to play a d20 based, post apocalyptic game too.  I have been eyeing a couple to try.  But, again, the availability of pre-made adventures doesn't seem to be there


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## Bravesteel25 (Jan 5, 2020)

My group has switched from 5E to PF2. I’ll be curious to see if that trend continues as the line picks up steam.


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## univoxs (Jan 5, 2020)

ddaley said:


> I was really looking forward to Starfinder, because I have been wanting to play a d20 sci fi game.  But, I just haven't been excited about the APs released.  If they release an AP that I can get into, then we will likely try it.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time or energy to write my own adventures these days (though, I have been thinking about attempting said feat more and more lately)... especially for a new system.
> 
> I would also like to play a d20 based, post apocalyptic game too.  I have been eyeing a couple to try.  But, again, the availability of pre-made adventures doesn't seem to be there





Honestly, I think d20 modern does a better job than starfinder still. Though Starfinders space combat is a little better. Easily adaptable to any other d20 game I think. We moved to Mongoose Travaller instead, and while not d20, it gives you all the crunch Starfinder felt like it lacked.


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## Henry (Jan 5, 2020)

Our group pretty much dropped Starfinder in favor of both PF2 and 5E. If they ever revise Starfinder, I hope something changes about the “leveled” weapon system and its damage dice - it personally feels like the chunkiest part of an otherwise pretty smooth system. I still think damage dice should be a function of level, at least 50/50, because while I can plausibly buy a handgun doing two or three dice of damage more than a weaker model (think .22 vs .50 magnum) having a sliding scale that goes from 1d4 to freaking 8d10 drives me nuts. I get, say, a .22 rifle being very different from a .50 cal anti-personnel weapon, but the damage for level 15 to 20 weapons feels like the guns shouldn’t be person-portable!

Anyway, it’s a personal peeve, not necessarily a serious system flaw. I do think it will likely eventually get revisited with some PF2 mechanical tweaks, especially if sales actually do drop off.


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## TrippyHippy (Jan 5, 2020)

My view on Starfinder is that it only really had an appeal to existing Pathfinder players. There are already a number of science fiction games out there (I play Traveller myself), so aside from it’s own idiosyncrasies there wasn’t much to create an appeal for anybody who wasn’t already wedded to the system. Like I say, I think it served as a sort of placeholder for Paizo as they went through the development of Pathfinder 2. Now that it’s arrived, Starfinder will probably just fade away a bit.


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## jedijon (Jan 9, 2020)

It could be - considering this is survey data - that the respondents themselves are the ones lumping Pathfinder brands together.

So either we’ve got Paizo fanboys jumping ship, game store owners separating product into WotC / the rest shelves...or perhaps opinion-based-sales ‘data’ is just a particular bee-under-bonnet for some...


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## BrokenTwin (Jan 9, 2020)

I'm saddened but not surprised by the fact that Shadow of the Demon Lord isn't on the list. It might be mentioned behind the paywall, but I'm not signing up to a site for a single article.

StarFinder being a splash in the pan doesn't surprise me, as it really felt more like a testing ground for PF2 concepts than something that was meant to be its own thing. But, as others have mentioned, it's possible it's being lumped together under the Pathfinder label, which would both mask its presence and artificially inflate PF2's presence.

Still, PF2 is clearly gaining traction, despite the naysayers. And while it's definitely not my thing to GM, I'm hoping it grows enough to provide some solid competition to D&D. More diversity in the public eye of the hobby will always be a good thing.


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## Ghost2020 (Jan 9, 2020)

TrippyHippy said:


> My view on Starfinder is that it only really had an appeal to existing Pathfinder players. There are already a number of science fiction games out there (I play Traveller myself), so aside from it’s own idiosyncrasies there wasn’t much to create an appeal for anybody who wasn’t already wedded to the system. Like I say, I think it served as a sort of placeholder for Paizo as they went through the development of Pathfinder 2. Now that it’s arrived, Starfinder will probably just fade away a bit.





Much like 1st ed Alternity was for D&D, to some degree.  No, Alternity was not D&D in space, but some people seemed to think it was that. Whereas Starfinder unabashedly embraces the 'D&D in space' and it's still met with middling enthusiasm.


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## JFranklin3000 (Jan 9, 2020)

Ghost2020 said:


> Much like 1st ed Alternity was for D&D, to some degree.  No, Alternity was not D&D in space, but some people seemed to think it was that. Whereas Starfinder unabashedly embraces the 'D&D in space' and it's still met with middling enthusiasm.




I think we really need to update the post to say there were no Starfinder rulebooks released in the quarter in question. We won't actually know anything until the next report comes out for Q3.


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## TrippyHippy (Jan 9, 2020)

BrokenTwin said:


> I'm saddened but not surprised by the fact that Shadow of the Demon Lord isn't on the list. It might be mentioned behind the paywall, but I'm not signing up to a site for a single article.



Has it ever been on the list? Note that the sales of a game aren’t determined by whether a website chooses to cover it or not. There isn’t a conspiracy here - it’s just not a mainstream seller.


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## BrokenTwin (Jan 9, 2020)

TrippyHippy said:


> Has it ever been on the list? Note that the sales of a game aren’t determined by whether a website chooses to cover it or not. There isn’t a conspiracy here - it’s just not a mainstream seller.



I'm just wishing it was a more popular game. Especially since I much prefer it over D&D5e. That's all.


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## Reynard (Jan 9, 2020)

Ghost2020 said:


> Much like 1st ed Alternity was for D&D, to some degree. No, Alternity was not D&D in space, but some people seemed to think it was that. Whereas Starfinder unabashedly embraces the 'D&D in space' and it's still met with middling enthusiasm.



The original Alternity was a gem. I especially loved both the Star Drive and Dark Matter settings. It's too bad it got kicked in favor of d20 Modern/Future.


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## TrippyHippy (Jan 10, 2020)

BrokenTwin said:


> I'm just wishing it was a more popular game. Especially since I much prefer it over D&D5e. That's all.



There is a long, long list of games that have never made the Top 5.


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## Ghost2020 (Jan 10, 2020)

Reynard said:


> The original Alternity was a gem. I especially loved both the Star Drive and Dark Matter settings. It's too bad it got kicked in favor of d20 Modern/Future.




Look into the 2nd edition, it changes some things, rolling high, but it still seems to be a solid system.


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## Reynard (Jan 10, 2020)

Ghost2020 said:


> Look into the 2nd edition, it changes some things, rolling high, but it still seems to be a solid system.



I played it at GenCon a couple years back and did not get the same sense of awesome, but that could be a combination of it still being in the playtest stage at that point, and the core setting being a pretty blatant Expanse pastiche.


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## Ghost2020 (Jan 10, 2020)

Reynard said:


> I played it at GenCon a couple years back and did not get the same sense of awesome, but that could be a combination of it still being in the playtest stage at that point, and the core setting being a pretty blatant Expanse pastiche.




The new settings don't exactly light me on fire either. I'm still hoping they keep pushing the system forward though. I have yet to run it, but it reads like it should be fun.


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## unknowable (Jan 13, 2020)

mrm1138 said:


> Out of curiosity, what alterations do you make?




Ah, I would have to be at my computer to find a complete list of changes (not running it atm as I tend to cycle systems)

But I used some momentum changes (extra dice are bought for more momentum 1 for the first, 2 for the second 3 for the third). I use the RAW reading of momentum combat spends (that is combat momentum options like piercing and the like can only be spent if you generate momentum on your turn. This is RAW but not RAI, it makes the game more interesting though). 

I limit the maximum TN people can have at level 1 to be 14 and use the shadows of the past character generation rules. Depending on the story/setting people may be forbidden from taking magical options without meeting a npc patron first (in game).

I did something to steely glare, I cannot remember what it was but it involved combat momentum spends for repeated use in a scene and a minor display requirement. 

Zones I only occasionally use and generally use more traditional 10ft immediate, 30ft increments. This was just a speed of building combat maps thing rather than anything to do with thematics though. 

Oh and I had some changes to minion/mob/squad rules that made minons less of a idle concern (although the changes to momentum spends and lower TNs helped with that).


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