# Alternative to PCGen?



## coredump777 (Sep 16, 2002)

It's just me that thinks that PCGen 4 lost a lot of its power? Lost material, facilities and all this why? Just for make wotc happy?

I'm looking for a good program with no strings attached, (etools not, please).

anyone?


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 16, 2002)

Yes PCgen 4.0.0 is stripped down and has been since 3.0. As a long time follower I am still willing to give it a little longer. Now that they are d20 complient they can begin negotiations to use non-SRD material. It has only been 1 day so far. 

Yes it is irritating not having dice rolling, but aparently anyone who does without special permision is in violation. Also the loss of the experience table is anoying but same issue. 

The thing that has iritated me the most however is the new hostile attitude on thier message board. We are no longer allowed to mention anything OGL/d20 related even if it has to do with functionality or anything that in even the slightest way is critical of WotC. Many posters now reply to any violation of these dictates with flames and the new Moderator instantly shuts down and deletes any such messages preventing even constructive comments. Your post and mine would recieve a canned response and then the thread would either recieve 5-10 flames or be deleted. Additionaly it was also mentioned that OT were no longer allowed (ok) but then the Moderator and certain select individuals are allowed to continue OT postings.


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## enrious (Sep 17, 2002)

I'm a fan of Campaign Suite, from Twin Rose Software (www.multiweave.com/trose).

Yes, it costs ~$25, but it's money well spent, IMO.  You can download a demo from that site, plus there is a mailing list and chat channel available (via the IRC server chat.psionics.net and channel #campaignsuite)

CS has an easy to use interface, many great features, and helpful tech support.


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## merton_monk (Sep 17, 2002)

*RE:Alternative to PCGen*



			
				Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> *Yes PCgen 4.0.0 is stripped down and has been since 3.0. As a long time follower I am still willing to give it a little longer. Now that they are d20 complient they can begin negotiations to use non-SRD material. It has only been 1 day so far.
> 
> Yes it is irritating not having dice rolling, but aparently anyone who does without special permision is in violation. Also the loss of the experience table is anoying but same issue. *




The loss of die rolling has indeed been painful, but we only underwent that surgery because Wotc said that by doing so they would seriously consider giving us permission for their non-SRD material.  Remember that the D20 license has built it into a clause that will let Wotc change it as they deem fit - so I'm hoping that by having a good working relationship we can see if we can at all influence the restrictions built into the license.  It may be a pipe dream, but we'll see.  If no die rolling is the cost of being able to include all their material, it's a price I'll gladly pay!



> The thing that has iritated me the most however is the new hostile attitude on thier message board. We are no longer allowed to mention anything OGL/d20 related even if it has to do with functionality or anything that in even the slightest way is critical of WotC. Many posters now reply to any violation of these dictates with flames and the new Moderator instantly shuts down and deletes any such messages preventing even constructive comments. Your post and mine would recieve a canned response and then the thread would either recieve 5-10 flames or be deleted. Additionaly it was also mentioned that OT were no longer allowed (ok) but then the Moderator and certain select individuals are allowed to continue OT postings. [/B]




I like to think our board is generally quite friendly.  I can understand why you might think it's a bit hostile due to our vigilant moderators.  For the past 4 weeks we've had a lot of users rant about the licenses - it varied from innocent queries about how it would be applied, to invectives against Wotc for "forcing" this upon us (nevermind that we made it clear that it was our choice!), to people suggesting lots of ways to covertly get around the restrictions by inventive rationalizations.  This started many flame-wars and bug reports and user questions were getting lost in all this traffic.  This traffic generally wasn't helpful with regards to our discussions with Wotc either - not that Wotc holds us directly responsible for everything that occurs on our boards, but I didn't want our board to denegrate into a hotbed of anti-Wotc sentiment.  We started off by asking/warning the frequent offenders about their behavior, but that had no impact, so we started invoking moderator priviledges.  I really don't like our having to play censor, and I'm hoping that in the near future this will calm down so we can stop moderating.  The unfortunate side-effect is that sometimes a new user thinks that they're the first to go on a rant about what they think has been going on.  Sometimes other users took our policy of stopping threads as open season on stepping on anyone who even came close to stepping over that line.  When that happens, those users get the same treatment - a warning and/or their post is deleted.  It's stated clearly in our "Welcome" message that these topics have been beat to death and most users would prefer not to see another thread on those subjects.  If you ever think that someone was stepped on unfairly or that a post was deleted unjustly or that a moderator or anyone else was out of line, please email me directly.  If people want to rant against Wotc in general we direct them to the message boards at wizards.com.  If they want to discuss the fine points of the OGL/D20 license they could do so here or on the OGL mailing list.  Most of our audience doesn't care about the license - they simply want a place where they can give bug reports and other feedback, ask questions about functionality and not feel like their post gets lost in a lot of traffic that is tangential in nature at best.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 17, 2002)

Bryan, While I understand the need to keep your List focused on improving PCgen I still stand by feeling that this is place that has lost its friendly atmoshpere. I have been reading almost all the posts for about a year, and it is only since GenCon that the problems have come. 

Yes OGL/d20 were discussed heavily here, both in threads started by me and by Knightcrawler. However these threads while answering some questions did not and were not intended to discuss how OGL/d20 complience impacted PCgen functionality. This seems to be one area we disagree on, I feel that the PCgen List is the apropriate place to discuss those issues, you feel here is. 

This includes why dice rolling was removed, both stats and hps as well as why there can not even be a dice roller packaged in PCgen that does not input into any fields. Since random names are allowed why aren't random numbers that don't relate to any fields. Also could we have a next level experience table that like the point buy table can be user inputed. Either of these questions if asked on your list would get the response "Because WotC said so. Topic closed." I personaly feel that these are valid points of discusion and should not be passed off to another location. 

One idea that was proposed is to have a second list where OGL/d20 complience could be discussed without cluttering the bug reporting list. This would give us someplace official to comment on this issue. And yes this would not stop old users who are checking back from asking where are the lst files and where is the functionality. It would however allow an answer to include a message that if you have more questions please direct them here instead. If you realy want us to start asking support questions about how OGL/d20 applies to PCGen here I will take you up on this, but this will only force you mynex, bd, paul and others to provide support at non official locations and increase the chances of things spiralling out of control since we all know what happens when PCgen complience is discussed here.

The problem of flames however seems to be deeper rooted. Hopefully it can be atributed to lack of sleep and stress trying to get things complient as fast as possible, but it is everyone, including Silverbacks on up and the moderator who are being snappish.  Since I have not recieved a personal letter from your moderator I can't personaly comment on how soft the paws are being used in private but I personaly find the public response cold and unfriendly. "I believe this question has been adequately answered. Topic Closed." There have been a couple of threads I thought had a real question that had not been answered but I did not want to risk the wrath of the moderator and the inevitable outside flames by responding. As for reporting things to you or Mynex I personally would rather that you spent your time improving the program not interceeding in every dispute. Beware what you ask for. 

As for the policy of always be nice to WotC for it will hurt us otherwise seems to be caried to the extreem. Yes WotC/ET sucks type posts should not be allowed, however it is enforced and things get out of hand even for "I love PCgen it is a much better program than ET. (insert real question here)" This is a matter of opinion that realy does not matter in the larger scheme. Yes if they thought ET was better they wouldn't be here, but this is not a real attack on WotC and WotC should not care about it. I would be greatly surprised if WotC could not diferentiate between things posted by those in charge and people who use the program as customers. If you don't believe this look at what they put up with on thier own boards, and they certainly would be withdrawing support fron ENWorld as well. If nothing was said about it it would die on its own when the real question is answered. instead everyone including the higher up feel the need to respond to this part of the post as well with a sharp response that including this was a bad thing. The outside flames are just following the example set by those in charge. 

Sorry for the Hijack but my frustration on this issue has been building for a couple of weeks and now that I have ranted I feel better.


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## coredump777 (Sep 17, 2002)

What really annoys me isn't the experience or dice rolling thing. I use PCGen to input characters that the people from my 3 campaigns (2 OA/Rokugan based and one Chtulhu)  and reassure that class skills, feats, and such are right (skill distribution is always a problem for my players, and I like to assure it using the program).
So, I have the characters rolled, and the level ups are done in the table, after each session. We have all the books we use, and the program is just for reference and sheet printing.

What pains me to the core is the loss of sources. All this because this SRD thing (not to say nonsense) that simple reduced the sources in PCGen to a state of inutility very close to Etools.

I still using the PCGen 2.7.3, that's is bugged I know, but I have the Oriental Adventures sources, I have a first version of Rokugan Campaign Setting, I have Forgotten Realms and a lot of sources.

I think that this OGL/SRD is just a way to wizards cripple good softwares (by the gods, pcgen is almost perfect for every game in the D20 system! and free! why they would support it?) and drop PCGen to all fours...  Maybe I think of that because my heavy Linux/Free Software filosofy, where I see good programs (sometimes better than the "Most used OS in the world from M$") fall because they are forced dow by lawsuits from the great companies, and I see others resist bravely, take GIMP and GNOME integration in Exchange Server that works better than outlook.

I really, really think that in this point, there's no difference in the situation. It's a big company forcing good software to complain to rules that make the program as horrible as his own proprietary software.

tks
coredump
BSD/Linux User.network administrator.c ++ coder. free software/information advocate.


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## bushfire (Sep 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by coredump777 _*
> I really, really think that in this point, there's no difference in the situation. It's a big company forcing good software to complain to rules that make the program as horrible as his own proprietary software.
> *




No, it's not making PCGen compete fairly with eTools that is the question. eTools being a licensed product, can leagly contain all sorts of data and information that other programs can not.  It's making PCGen compete fairly with the other software programs that were/are trying to follow the D20/OGL. Programs like DMF, TwinRose, and RPM. These are the programs that PCGen should be compared to.

Now if you are saying that the *only* value you see in PCGen is the data sets rather than the actual program features then you devalue the work done by the programmers. From what I have heard the latest version (4.0) of PCGen is a very good program and the future plans would seem to make it even a better program.

What you are bitching about is not changes to the program, but the loss of all the "free" data. Well, too bad


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## drnuncheon (Sep 17, 2002)

coredump777 said:
			
		

> *What pains me to the core is the loss of sources. All this because this SRD thing (not to say nonsense) that simple reduced the sources in PCGen to a state of inutility very close to Etools.*




Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing stopping an individual user from including anything they want - whether it's WOTC material or anything else.  The problem is only with the stuff being _distributed_.  Surely you could take the old data files and fix 'em up to work with the new version of the program?

J


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## Leopold (Sep 17, 2002)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing stopping an individual user from including anything they want - whether it's WOTC material or anything else.  The problem is only with the stuff being distributed.  Surely you could take the old data files and fix 'em up to work with the new version of the program?
> 
> J *




the answer is unequivacably yes...


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## Bulain (Sep 17, 2002)

*documentation*

Where would I find documentation on how to include prestige classes and suchlike from splatbooks? 

I have read the help file and tried to wade through the generally unfriendly boards on Sourceforge, but can't find simple information like this. A request for such information just got lots of people flaming me because they thought I was complaining about the data file removal.

Currently I can't use PC-GEN to create characters that use any rules from anything but the main three. I have a number of books like sword and fist, tome and blood etc and I have to make manual sheets to use them.


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## Bulain (Sep 17, 2002)

*old data files?*

Or even better where can I find the old data files, and what is required to modify them to work with the new version?


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 17, 2002)

Right now the old datafiles are well distributed amoungst many people, myself included, but we have been asked not to redistribute them while negotianions are under way with WotC to officially allow the return of the non-SRD material. I am willing to give them some time to achieve this. 

Now that PCgen is OGL/d20 complient it can no longer be shut down. If after awhile WotC does not give permission, or it apears that they are dragging thier feet forever, I wouldn't be surprised if you start seeing 4.x converted files begin to be traded away from the PCgen site much like the etool file distribution sites. Since these would be fan sites it becomes much more dificult for WotC to stop this both as a practical matter, and from a PR standpoint.


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## kingpaul (Sep 17, 2002)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> *Now that PCgen is OGL/d20 complient it can no longer be shut down. If after awhile WotC does not give permission, or it apears that they are dragging thier feet forever, I wouldn't be surprised if you start seeing 4.x converted files begin to be traded away from the PCgen site much like the etool file distribution sites. Since these would be fan sites it becomes much more dificult for WotC to stop this both as a practical matter, and from a PR standpoint. *



Actually, from what I've read from the PCGen Silverbacks, any book that they don't have permission to use will *not* be available on the PCGen sites (SourceForge and Yahoo).  If the moderators find said files u/l'd, they will be deleted.


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## Mynex (Sep 17, 2002)

*Couple of Things*

I'm going to (attempt) to address a couple of different posts here...

1) Regardless of what people think (i.e. their opinions), no offense, but the only opinion that matters is WotC's.  No amount of carping, whining, complaining, commenting, etc, is going to change that.  WotC's definition of 'interactive' relates to the 'success or failure' which is why die rolling is a no-no for D20 compliance, yet random names are acceptable.

2) Older Data sets will work in newer versions of PCGen, they simply need to be run through the list converter avialable in the Menu option "Tools".  This will convert most everything to the latest formats, but yes, there will still be some things that need to be done by hand.

3) No one that works on PCGen will give anyone any of the 'verboten' data sets.  Ain't gonna happen and that is strictly taboo to ask for on the yahoo group.

4) The Yahoo group has calmed considerably since the first couple of weeks of seriously complaining.  Only those that get really out of line get flamed.  You may get sarcasm from some users granted, but we try to stiffle that as well.  As for the 'This thread is closed, period' sorry, but that's the way it is for now.  There are plenty of places now (welcome letter, letter sent every 2 weeks, web page, etc) that explain what's going on, what's happened, and what's next on the plate, so there really is no excuse/justificationto rehash conversations that are long gone.

5) You can like it or not like it, you can slam E-Tools, PCGen, WotC, etc to your hearts content, just not on the Yahoo group.  The yahoo group used to be 99.99% friendly until after GenCon, then it dropped to 30%, and now it's back to about 95% and getting better.  When things calm down back to previous levels then we can go back to being unmoderated.

6) And why the hell is everyone so focused on the WotC materials?  You do realize before GenCon 50% of the material in PCGen was from 3rd party publishers?  You know, those other guys that use the OGL as well?   They do have _some_ cool stuff. *grin*  Sheesh people, we have so much stuff in PCGen now, and so much more waiting to go in (i.e. as we get time/more help to get them entered)...  Don't be afraid to 'wean' yourself from WotC's splat books and explore some of the other great products out there, D20 is MUCH more than WotC.

We're trying to foster good relations with WotC, we've asked them the same questions we're getting asked, and giving the same answers we've gotten.  Doesn't mean we like em either, but give me a break, how hard is it to roll some dice and enter the result manually?  As for the XP, hate to break it to you, but it hasn't really done anything but show the minimum of your characters level for a while now, so that's not even a loss.  Now at least you can enter in your own XP of the exact amount you want.  We're also going to be adding a spot where you can manually put in how much you need for your next level as well.  It doesn't do anything but display that information, but that's all most people need anyways.

The biggest gripe/whine/complaint/bi*** people have is the loss of all the wizards non-SRD books.  Well ya know what?  YOU can enter them yourself, that's the main point of PCGen, the fact that you can create your own list files.  Is it easy?  Some people think so, others think not.  Doesn't require any programming experience, no funky expensive programs, just a simple text editor.  And even that is going to become unnecessary soon, we've already started with a Deity editor within PCGen and we will be adding more editors over time, so everyone needs to chill out and relax.

We are talking to WotC about the other materials, but there are a lot of things beyond WotC saying 'yea sure go ahead' that have to be considered.  And given the fact that EVERYONE said that PCGen would _NEVER_ be OGL AND D20 compliant, the fact that with a concerted effort to go the final mile (since we were 95% there already), we DID become so in 3 weeks and 6 days.  Imagine that.  

So relax, let us deal with WotC and see where it goes from there.  There's no need to beat a dead horse into ashes.  If you want to talk about OGL stuff, there's plenty of places to do so.  Go visit the OGL forum (there's plenty of links here on EN World for it), THAT is the MOST apporpriate place for those types of conversations, NOT the PCGen Yahoo group.


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## Mynex (Sep 17, 2002)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *
> Actually, from what I've read from the PCGen Silverbacks, any book that they don't have permission to use will not be available on the PCGen sites (SourceForge and Yahoo).  If the moderators find said files u/l'd, they will be deleted. *




Paul,

   He meant other sites, complete fan based sites.  But yea in short, if we don't have a full blown 'yes' from now on, we will not be including xxx source material.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Couple of Things*



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *I'm going to (attempt) to address a couple of different posts here...
> 
> 1) Regardless of what people think (i.e. their opinions), no offense, but the only opinion that matters is WotC's.  No amount of carping, whining, complaining, commenting, etc, is going to change that.  WotC's definition of 'interactive' relates to the 'success or failure' which is why die rolling is a no-no for D20 compliance, yet random names are acceptable.*




Why is die rolling that does not interactively connect to any field verboten? This is a topic that repeated is asked on Yahoo and has yet to recieve an answer. It has once more been asked this morning with the response because it is, when someone responded that they didn't feel the answer was enough the thread was closed. This subject realy needs its own thread.



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *2) Older Data sets will work in newer versions of PCGen, they simply need to be run through the list converter avialable in the Menu option "Tools".  This will convert most everything to the latest formats, but yes, there will still be some things that need to be done by hand.*




Yes, but there are people out there that do not have the files to update even though they have the books.



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *3) No one that works on PCGen will give anyone any of the 'verboten' data sets.  Ain't gonna happen and that is strictly taboo to ask for on the yahoo group.*




I never said they would. And I agree that this needs to be the official position of PCgen, but that will not stop others.



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *4) The Yahoo group has calmed considerably since the first couple of weeks of seriously complaining.  Only those that get really out of line get flamed.  You may get sarcasm from some users granted, but we try to stiffle that as well.  As for the 'This thread is closed, period' sorry, but that's the way it is for now.  There are plenty of places now (welcome letter, letter sent every 2 weeks, web page, etc) that explain what's going on, what's happened, and what's next on the plate, so there really is no excuse/justificationto rehash conversations that are long gone.*




As above there are still areas that need discussing but are not allowed. Dispite all those items, I only look online since I don't want my mailbox filled everyday and I have not recieved any of these, and I suspect others have not as well. as for what is going on I feel that I am well versed by having read 90% of all messages and I still believe that some questions have not been answered. As for statements like "There realy is no excuse/justification to rehash conversations that are long gone." this is incorrect and only contributes to the negative atmoshpere. 



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *5) You can like it or not like it, you can slam E-Tools, PCGen, WotC, etc to your hearts content, just not on the Yahoo group.  The yahoo group used to be 99.99% friendly until after GenCon, then it dropped to 30%, and now it's back to about 95% and getting better.  When things calm down back to previous levels then we can go back to being unmoderated.*




I hope things get back to normal but I would put the friendly scale at about 70% now.



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *6) And why the hell is everyone so focused on the WotC materials?  You do realize before GenCon 50% of the material in PCGen was from 3rd party publishers?  You know, those other guys that use the OGL as well?   They do have _some_ cool stuff. *grin*  Sheesh people, we have so much stuff in PCGen now, and so much more waiting to go in (i.e. as we get time/more help to get them entered)...  Don't be afraid to 'wean' yourself from WotC's splat books and explore some of the other great products out there, D20 is MUCH more than WotC.*




People are focused because most DM's allow all WotC material but only selected 3rd party. Plus FR is by far the most popular campaign world.



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *We're trying to foster good relations with WotC, we've asked them the same questions we're getting asked, and giving the same answers we've gotten.  Doesn't mean we like em either, but give me a break, how hard is it to roll some dice and enter the result manually?  As for the XP, hate to break it to you, but it hasn't really done anything but show the minimum of your characters level for a while now, so that's not even a loss.  Now at least you can enter in your own XP of the exact amount you want.  We're also going to be adding a spot where you can manually put in how much you need for your next level as well.  It doesn't do anything but display that information, but that's all most people need anyways.*




I am willing to live with it for the most part. Has WotC denied permission to have a xp table period, even if the values are user inputed? Other games have set up alternate xp charts, are they in violation? It would be nice to have an xp table I have to only enter once rather than repeatedly for each character.



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *The biggest gripe/whine/complaint/bi*** people have is the loss of all the wizards non-SRD books.  Well ya know what?  YOU can enter them yourself, that's the main point of PCGen, the fact that you can create your own list files.  Is it easy?  Some people think so, others think not.  Doesn't require any programming experience, no funky expensive programs, just a simple text editor.  And even that is going to become unnecessary soon, we've already started with a Deity editor within PCGen and we will be adding more editors over time, so everyone needs to chill out and relax.*




Great on the diety editor, but many people don't have the time to enter everything themselves. 



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *We are talking to WotC about the other materials, but there are a lot of things beyond WotC saying 'yea sure go ahead' that have to be considered.  And given the fact that EVERYONE said that PCGen would _NEVER_ be OGL AND D20 compliant, the fact that with a concerted effort to go the final mile (since we were 95% there already), we DID become so in 3 weeks and 6 days.  Imagine that.  *




I am pleased by your success so far, and never doubted your ability to achieve it. I hope that you get permission, and I am being patient. 



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *So relax, let us deal with WotC and see where it goes from there.  There's no need to beat a dead horse into ashes.  If you want to talk about OGL stuff, there's plenty of places to do so.  Go visit the OGL forum (there's plenty of links here on EN World for it), THAT is the MOST apporpriate place for those types of conversations, NOT the PCGen Yahoo group. *





I am relaxed, and waiting patiently for the results of your discussioins. I only presented a scenario of what may happen in the future. 

So the OGL forum can answer questions about how OGL complience is being implemented in PCgen?


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## drakhe (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Couple of Things*



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *I'm going to (attempt) to address a couple of different posts here...
> 
> ... *




Sorry to snip most of your post (it's still there just a couple of posts higher ;-) )

For my 2 cents worth I would like to add: There are more programs about that deliver FUNCTIONALITY and no content, that content being provided by the community. Check out ARMYBUILDER. They've made a great wargame army list editor and that is distributed with hardly any data (if you download none, if you get the CD it might have the L5R Clan War material for which they have a license to distribute)

It hasen't stopped the community from creating dozens of data-sets for about any wargame out there.

So I'd like to simply say: stop whining, let the monkeys make the program better, take the included data as topping on the cake and look to the community for extra cheries. (or go make your own topping and cheries...)

PCGEN team: big cheer from me on a great program and a very appreciated effort to get allong with WOTC (I prefer you being friends with WOTC than WOTC getting you banned, so there... ;-)


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## Twin Rose (Sep 17, 2002)

bushfire said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No, it's not making PCGen compete fairly with eTools that is the question. eTools being a licensed product, can leagly contain all sorts of data and information that other programs can not.  It's making PCGen compete fairly with the other software programs that were/are trying to follow the D20/OGL. Programs like DMF, TwinRose, and RPM. These are the programs that PCGen should be compared to.
> 
> *




I would prefer that this comparison not be drawn.  The PCGen folks do a great thing for the community, but they are self-admitted fans not writing a professional application.  Customer support and other factors draw a line in the software industry and PCGen and I have both tried to keep the line clear.  Campaign Suite contains character generation - with stat rolling - but that is only a small portion of the greater whole of the program.  The name "Campaign" instead of "PC" should show that difference.

Also true that we have a trial version, with free character generation, but it too includes class editors, dungeon generation (without statblocks) and other features that are meant more for the GM.


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## Twin Rose (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: Couple of Things*



			
				Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Why is die rolling that does not interactively connect to any field verboten? This is a topic that repeated is asked on Yahoo and has yet to recieve an answer. It has once more been asked this morning with the response because it is, when someone responded that they didn't feel the answer was enough the thread was closed. This subject realy needs its own thread.
> 
> So the OGL forum can answer questions about how OGL complience is being implemented in PCgen? *




Two reasons why dice-rolling is forbidden under the d20stl.  First and foremost, the d20 guide specifically forbids inclusion of a method for rolling and assigning stats - at all.  Secondly, WOTC feels that stat rolling can be seen as "success/failure" as defined under the "Interactive Game" definition.

Bare in mind that the OGL, and d20STL are different, seperate entities.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Couple of Things*



			
				Twin Rose said:
			
		

> *
> I would prefer that this comparison not be drawn. The PCGen folks do a great thing for the community, but they are self-admitted fans not writing a professional application. Customer support and other factors draw a line in the software industry and PCGen and I have both tried to keep the line clear. Campaign Suite contains character generation - with stat rolling - but that is only a small portion of the greater whole of the program. The name "Campaign" instead of "PC" should show that difference.*







			
				Twin Rose said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Two reasons why dice-rolling is forbidden under the d20stl.  First and foremost, the d20 guide specifically forbids inclusion of a method for rolling and assigning stats - at all.  Secondly, WOTC feels that stat rolling can be seen as "success/failure" as defined under the "Interactive Game" definition.
> 
> Bare in mind that the OGL, and d20STL are different, seperate entities. *




I have become quite aware of the differences myself over the last month, but yes others might not be aware of this.

First: This is a perfectly honest question, I take it then that Campaign Suite is not a d20 product but is only OGL? or do you have seperate permission for your dice rolling?

Second; I understand that stat rolling is considered interactive and why that is the case. PC gen was allowed to keep its random name generator by WotC and be d20 legal. What I am wondering about is the inclusion of a die roler that is not field specific and does not input any results into any fields, hence no success/failure since this is not related to anything. People would have to cut and paste the results. I am not sure how a name generator is allowed and this is not since they are the same thing. Rename: bob=one=1, steve=two=2, etc. If need be name it generic generator 1 and let us change bob to 1 ourselves.


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## Twin Rose (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Couple of Things*



			
				Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I have become quite aware of the differences myself over the last month, but yes others might not be aware of this.
> 
> ...




The second method is acceptable.  What works in Campaign Suite is that it is windows specific, and thus relies on OLE for the assignment of the scores - one window talking to another through the automation, and stats being drag and dropped from one to the next.  

Flavor type rolls are okay - you can't really fail at rolling a name, unless I suppose you really don't want the name bob, but it's subjective and a matter of taste.


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## smetzger (Sep 18, 2002)

The d20 guide says you cannot make an Interactive Game:
""Interactive Game": means a piece of computer gaming software that is designed to accept inputs from human players or their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return some indication of the results of those inputs to the users."

To me that says that you could have random character generation since there is no 'success or failure' in d20 character generation; unlike say the original Traveller game.  Some however take this to mean that you cannot do any random generation in a d20 computer program.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Couple of Things*



			
				Twin Rose said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The second method is acceptable.*




???? What exactly are you refering to ?????



			
				Twin Rose said:
			
		

> *What works in Campaign Suite is that it is windows specific, and thus relies on OLE for the assignment of the scores - one window talking to another through the automation, and stats being drag and dropped from one to the next.*




So you are saying that you have legaly by d20/OGL rules put a random number generator in your program. If this is infact legal the question that PCgen refuses to talk about is why can't such a feature be implemented in PCgen.



			
				Twin Rose said:
			
		

> *Flavor type rolls are okay - you can't really fail at rolling a name, unless I suppose you really don't want the name bob, but it's subjective and a matter of taste. *




Yes, my point is that if such a generator is possible and points to a table in the OGL it does not realy matter what info is in the table since there are no rules about having a OGL table of 1,2,3,4 etc. The generator is legal, the table is legal. The only illegal thing is actualy using those numbers directly to determine success/failure.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 18, 2002)

smetzger said:
			
		

> *The d20 guide says you cannot make an Interactive Game:
> ""Interactive Game": means a piece of computer gaming software that is designed to accept inputs from human players or their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return some indication of the results of those inputs to the users."
> 
> To me that says that you could have random character generation since there is no 'success or failure' in d20 character generation; unlike say the original Traveller game.  Some however take this to mean that you cannot do any random generation in a d20 computer program. *




Good point, If I randomly generate stats for a new character I have not succeeded or failed since it is not aparent that those stats are good or bad. Names: I like Bob, if I get Bob I succeeded, If I get steve I failed. Character: I like Fighters, If I get a 18 Str, 7 Int I succeeded, If I get 7 Str, 18 Int I failed. You like Steve, If you get Bob you failed. You like Wizards, I you get 18 Str, 7 Int you failed, if you get  7 Str, 18 Int you Succeed. Success/failure for both is in the Eye of the beholder. There is no empirical succees/failure. 

As for whether you can do any random generation, WotC has directly signed off on PCgen being d20 complient. PCgen has a random generator. Therefore d20 random generation in itself, by WotC own ruling, is legal. It is how such generation is applied that is the real question now.


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## Sm!rk (Sep 18, 2002)

*Re: Couple of Things*



			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> *
> 6) And why the hell is everyone so focused on the WotC materials?  You do realize before GenCon 50% of the material in PCGen was from 3rd party publishers?
> *




Let me take a guess, WotC material sells in the tens of thousands, the rest sells in the tens or hundreds.


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## Twin Rose (Sep 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: Couple of Things*



			
				Sm!rk said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Let me take a guess, WotC material sells in the tens of thousands, the rest sells in the tens or hundreds. *




I believe you are roughly correct about WOTC material, save for the PHB and other core books.  D20 Publishers have to sell more than that, though, or it wouldn't be cost effective.  The real "break even" number for most publishers is 3,000 - and since they are, in fact, making money we can assume that it's higher than this.

I can give rough figures of my own product, but supplements are a 'steady' seller, never really going up or down.  Books often have an initial boom, and then they slowly drop off in sales.


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