# Is Clothing considered armor...?



## Otterscrubber (Oct 27, 2003)

for purposes of enchanting it?  Can you make a set of +5 clothing for a monk or a rogue?


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## Dursk Starkfire (Oct 27, 2003)

Otterscrubber said:
			
		

> for purposes of enchanting it?  Can you make a set of +5 clothing for a monk or a rogue?




yes.

Magic Vestment
Transmutation
Level: Clr 3, Strength 3, War 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Armor or shield touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
*An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.*


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## dcollins (Oct 28, 2003)

No. Assuming the original question is concerned with permanent magic items, then the above-quoted language is explicitly specific to _magic vestment_ only. No allowance for permanently enchanted clothes is made in any of the other rules, magic armor section, or treasure tables.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 28, 2003)

Of course, if your DM is happy to allow "reslotting" of items, then crafting +5 Bracers of Armor to fit the "vest, vestment, or shirt" slot will do the trick.

And under the A&EG sidebar rules, Bracers of Armor can also contain armor special abilities (like Fortification, Invulnerability, and the like) - so if your DM allows you to reslot Bracers, and he uses A&EG, you could conceivably make a +1 Vest of Light Fortification, or whatever.

But it does depend on how flexible the DM is on crafting non-standard items.

Note that in this case, it's a wondrous item that takes up the vest slot, not armor that takes up the armor slot.

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Oct 28, 2003)

dcollins said:
			
		

> No. Assuming the original question is concerned with permanent magic items, then the above-quoted language is explicitly specific to _magic vestment_ only. No allowance for permanently enchanted clothes is made in any of the other rules, magic armor section, or treasure tables.




Armor is not typcially made of clothing.

However, the sample spell for Armor Bonus Enhancement is Magic Vestment. The sample magic item for Armor Bonus Enhancement is +1 armor. This implies that you could theoretically make +0 armor out of clothing and then enchant it.

If the DM does not allow this, you could still make a Continuous Use Activated Wondrous Item as a Vest or Robe of Magic Vestment (but you would have to use the Craft Wondrous Item feat instead of the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat).

In either case, it would still be an armor enhancement bonus.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 28, 2003)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> However, the sample spell for Armor Bonus Enhancement is Magic Vestment. The sample magic item for Armor Bonus Enhancement is +1 armor.




Unrelated.  Magic Vestment is not a prerequisite for crafting magic armor; Magic Vestment is Transmutation, magic armor radiates an Abjuration aura.

With the Craft Arms and Armor feat, you can add an enhancement bonus to masterwork armor; with the Magic Vestment spell, you can add an enhancement bonus to any armor or clothing.

The behaviour of one implies nothing about the behaviour of the other.



> If the DM does not allow this, you could still make a Continuous Use Activated Wondrous Item as a Vest or Robe of Magic Vestment (but you would have to use the Craft Wondrous Item feat instead of the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat).




... still subject to DM approval and/or pricing.

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Oct 28, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Unrelated. Magic Vestment is not a prerequisite for crafting magic armor; Magic Vestment is Transmutation, magic armor radiates an Abjuration aura.




Are you sure that magic armor radiates an Abjuration Aura? If it did, then magic armor, shields and weapons within 10 feet of one another for 24 hours would create barely visible energy flucuations (as per the Abjuration rules).

And if magic armor radiates Abjuration, what does magic weapons radiate?

All of the short term give enhancement bonus to weapons or armor spells are Transmutation (since they change the properties of the item, just like Magic Armor or Weapons change the properties of the masterwork armor or weapon).

Is the Light generated from magic weapons Evocation?

One of the biggest flaws in the item creation rules. You can craft weapons and armor without knowing a single spell that has anything to do with Abjuration/Transmutation (or magic weapons or armor for that matter). For example, a Specialist Wizard with abjuration or transmutation (or Evocation with regard to a weapon that gives off light) as his prohibited class can still craft (according to the rules) magic weapons and armor if he has the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat (and the proper masterwork weapon or armor).

Without associating a school and a spell to the creation of magic weapons and armor, they made it totally haphazard as to who could accomplish it.

Quite frankly, there are some Specialist Wizards who should not be able to do that (but can if they take the feat).



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> ... still subject to DM approval and/or pricing.




So is +2 armor. Just because it is in the game does not mean that the DM will allow a player to craft it (minimally, he could make the thousands of GPs of required material nearly impossible to acquire).


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## Seravin (Oct 28, 2003)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Are you sure that magic armor radiates an Abjuration Aura? If it did, then magic armor, shields and weapons within 10 feet of one another for 24 hours would create barely visible energy flucuations (as per the Abjuration rules).
> 
> And if magic armor radiates Abjuration, what does magic weapons radiate?.




He's sure.
Page 213, DMG (3.5).
Armor and protective items are Abjuration
Weapons or offensive items are Evocation.
_I believe 3.0 was the same but I don't have that book near._

Tres Cool.  People with magic shields and armor are about to get a little easier to see.....


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 28, 2003)

Seravin said:
			
		

> Weapons or offensive items are Evocation.
> _I believe 3.0 was the same but I don't have that book near._




Almost the same   In 3E Weapons were "Invocation"... which is probably early-design-phase-3Eese for Evocation 

-Hyp.


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## hong (Oct 28, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Unrelated.  Magic Vestment is not a prerequisite for crafting magic armor; Magic Vestment is Transmutation, magic armor radiates an Abjuration aura.
> 
> ...
> 
> The behaviour of one implies nothing about the behaviour of the other.




And this would still be true, even if magic vestment was a prerequisite for magic armour.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 28, 2003)

hong said:
			
		

> And this would still be true, even if magic vestment was a prerequisite for magic armour.




Well, yes, but in this case, it's even _more_ true.  

-Hyp.


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2003)

HyperSmurf and the others are right in that you can't make magic clothing that has any magic armor properties, or gives you an armor bonus, but it you want clothing that can give you a magical defense against attacks, you can still have that.

The answer, here, is to just make a specific piece of clothing magical using Craft Wondrous Item. The type of bonus won't be an armor (or enhancement) bonus), but there are plenty of other kinds that can add to your AC. How about a _Vest of Protection +5_ (deflection bonus)? Or a cloak that grants a luck bonus to AC? The key is that it needs to be a specific kind of clothing, so as to take up a body slot on the character..and, as I said, to have it be a wondrous item, not magic armor.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 28, 2003)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> HyperSmurf and the others are right in that you can't make magic clothing that has any magic armor properties, or gives you an armor bonus, but it you want clothing that can give you a magical defense against attacks, you can still have that.




Well, except that there is already precedent for Wondrous Items that give armor bonuses (Bracers of Armor, Robe of the Archmagi...), and even for Wondrous Items that give armor special abilities (Bracers of Armor, using the A&EG sidebar).

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Oct 28, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Well, except that there is already precedent for Wondrous Items that give armor bonuses (Bracers of Armor, Robe of the Archmagi...), and even for Wondrous Items that give armor special abilities (Bracers of Armor, using the A&EG sidebar).




Except that an Armor bonus is not an Enhancement bonus to AC.


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## KarinsDad (Oct 28, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Almost the same   In 3E Weapons were "Invocation"... which is probably early-design-phase-3Eese for Evocation




Do you have a 3E page number for this (and the Abjuration for armor)?

I looked all over for those and couldn't find them.

Again, I think it is an extremely stupid rule that spells that give Enhancement bonuses to armor and weapons are Transmutation, but that permanent magic armor and weapons are of totally different schools of magic.

And it is an even more stupid rule that the Craft feat allows Specialist Wizards to create magic armor and weapons, even if the school(s) of those items are from his prohibited school list.


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## master arminas (Oct 28, 2003)

Wrong, people.

There is an existing magic clothing in the DMG that provides an armor bonus, and that can be enchanted or created by anyone willing to spend the time and energy to do so.  The Robes of the Archmagi provide a + 5 _armor bonus_ [emphasis mine] to armor class.

Having this magic item in the DMG, we can thus state that clothing, if of masterwork quality (perhaps?  maybe?)  may be enchanted with an armor bonus of up to + 5 (and perhaps with armor special qualities).

Would it be considered "armor".  No.  It is clothing, a robe, a shirt, a tunic, whatever.  It is not light armor, it is clothes.  However, it is magical clothing that provides an armor bonus to AC.

In my own, albeit flawed, humble opinion, one should be able to enchant clothing with an armor bonus.  Please note by the way, one is not required to have _craft magic arms and armor_ to create the robes of the archmagi, only _craft wondrous item_.

Thanks for your time and patience.

The Grand Master Arminas


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## franzel (Oct 28, 2003)

Seravin said:
			
		

> He's sure.
> Page 213, DMG (3.5).
> Armor and protective items are Abjuration
> Weapons or offensive items are Evocation.
> ...




Actually, the rule as stated on page 172 of the 3.5 PHB is

"If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations."

So it wouldn't happen with armor or shields (since they are not Abjuration spell effects) unless they radiated a Magic Circle against Evil spell or the like 24/7.

franzel


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## dcollins (Oct 28, 2003)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Do you have a 3E page number for this (and the Abjuration for armor)?




From the 3.0 DMG, p. 175, top right:



> If no spells are included in the prerequisites, use the following default guidelines:
> 
> *Item Nature - School*
> Armor and protection items -- Abjuration
> ...


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## KarinsDad (Oct 28, 2003)

dcollins said:
			
		

> From the 3.0 DMG, p. 175, top right:




Thanks! That'll be a good page number to memorize for my PCs Detect Magic spells.


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## Camarath (Oct 28, 2003)

Otterscrubber said:
			
		

> for purposes of enchanting it?  Can you make a set of +5 clothing for a monk or a rogue?



If you are looking for an armor with no Max Dex Bonus, ACP, and ASF there is the Bondleaf Warp from A&EG. It still counts as light armor though so monks would still face the losing some of thier abilities.

Light armor      Cost   Armor Bonus  Max dex  ACP  ASF  Speed 30/20  Weight
Bondleaf Warp  1,000gp   +1               -        -      -         30/20          2lb


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## KarinsDad (Oct 28, 2003)

dcollins said:
			
		

> If no spells are included in the prerequisites, use the following default guidelines:
> 
> Item Nature - School
> Armor and protection items -- Abjuration




[rant]
Another thing I have a problem with is defaults like this. Although the magic of armor being abjuration is somewhat ok (it really should be transmutation though), magic armor changes size in 3E for fit the recepient.

Hence, armor should also radiate transmutation.

Plus, armor should revert back to its original size in an Antimagic Field, but that's a different issue.
[/rant]


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 28, 2003)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Except that an Armor bonus is not an Enhancement bonus to AC.




Neither is anything else; there's no such thing as an Enhancement bonus to AC.

An Enhancement bonus on a protective item increases the Armor bonus of a suit of armor (or in 3.5, the Shield bonus of a shield).  It does not directly increase AC.

That's why Enhancement bonuses are ignored by touch attacks - they increase the Armor bonus, which is bypassed.

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Oct 28, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Neither is anything else; there's no such thing as an Enhancement bonus to AC.




I wasn't trying to be 100% literal there. You knew what I meant.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 28, 2003)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> I wasn't trying to be 100% literal there. You knew what I meant.




Well, then I'm not sure what your point was.

What's the _effective_ difference between a shirt with a +5 Armor bonus, and a shirt with a +5 Enhancement bonus to a +0 Armor bonus?

Magic Vestment won't stack with either of them.  They're both ignored by touch attacks.

-Hyp.


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## SweeneyTodd (Oct 28, 2003)

As has been said before, it's easy to do this by making "X of armor", where X is shirt/vest/pants/whatever.

The rules already exist (I forget where, but I've seen it in either the DMG or SRD) that tell you the cost multiplier to make an item that goes in a different slot than usual. Say, for the sake of argument, it's x2. Then if you can make Bracers of Armor +2, you can instead make a Shirt of Armor +2 for twice the cost.

As for specialist wizards being able to make magic items, well, the system's abstracted. If it bothers you as a DM, you could certainly change it.


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## KarinsDad (Oct 28, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Well, then I'm not sure what your point was.
> 
> What's the _effective_ difference between a shirt with a +5 Armor bonus, and a shirt with a +5 Enhancement bonus to a +0 Armor bonus?
> 
> Magic Vestment won't stack with either of them.  They're both ignored by touch attacks.




For 3E (do not know the 3.5 rules on this), an Armor Bonus does not stack with armor (they are the same bonus type) and its associated Enhancement Bonus, nor with a shield and its associated Enhancement Bonus.

The Enhancement Bonus from Magic Vestment on clothing, though, will stack with the Enhancement Bonus on a shield.

So, a +5 Enhancement Bonus to clothing would be superior to a +5 Armor Bonus to clothing and very cool for Arcane semi-Fighter types like Bards since they could combine the Enhancement magic from their clothes with Enhancement magic from shields (with low or zero arcane spell penalty, depending on the material of the shield).


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 28, 2003)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> For 3E (do not know the 3.5 rules on this), an Armor Bonus does not stack with armor (they are the same bonus type) and its associated Enhancement Bonus, nor with a shield and its associated Enhancement Bonus.




Point.  It doesn't matter in 3.5, since shields now have a Shield bonus, which stacks with any Armor bonus.

Of course, for enhanced clothing to stack with a shield in 3E, it would have to take up the armor slot (since the armor bonus from shields in 3E only stacks with "worn armor"), which would mean that duellists and monks would have problems if they wore it.

-Hyp.


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## Camarath (Oct 28, 2003)

SweeneyTodd said:
			
		

> The rules already exist (I forget where, but I've seen it in either the DMG or SRD) that tell you the cost multiplier to make an item that goes in a different slot than usual. Say, for the sake of argument, it's x2. Then if you can make Bracers of Armor +2, you can instead make a Shirt of Armor +2 for twice the cost.



 It is in both the 3.5 DMG and SRD. Here are the rules from the SRD. It appears that the Robe slot could be used with out the cost increase (mabye the shirt slot as well).

Uncustomary space limitation      Multiply entire cost by 1.5 

BODY SLOT AFFINITIES
Robe 	             Multiple effects	
Shirt 	             Physical improvement	
Vest, vestment 	Class ability improvement


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## KarinsDad (Oct 28, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Of course, for enhanced clothing to stack with a shield in 3E, it would have to take up the armor slot (since the armor bonus from shields in 3E only stacks with "worn armor"), which would mean that duellists and monks would have problems if they wore it.




Basically, but that wouldn't matter to a 3E Bard who wants a relatively cheap set of armor bonus that stacks with his shield, but doesn't interfere with his spells.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 28, 2003)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Plus, armor should revert back to its original size in an Antimagic Field, but that's a different issue.




And not necessarily true.

Magic armor certainly shouldn't resize to fit someone in an Antimagic Field... but then, while it's in the Field, it isn't _magic_ armor, so that's kinda a given.

But you're assuming that the resizing is an effect with a duration, or a continuous effect, that can be suppressed.  What if when someone goes to put it on, it transforms to the new size as an instantaneous effect?  Now it's not fat dwarf armor masquerading as skinny elf armor... it's skinny elf armor that was, once upon a time, fat dwarf armor.

Since the effect was instantaneous, there's nothing to suppress when it hits an AMF...

-Hyp.

Edit - now, this interpretation could cause a problem if the armor is being worn by a magically transformed (Polymorphed, Enlarged, whatever) creature, since the armor would not change when it hits the AMF, but the wearer _would_...


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## KarinsDad (Oct 29, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> And not necessarily true.
> 
> Magic armor certainly shouldn't resize to fit someone in an Antimagic Field... but then, while it's in the Field, it isn't _magic_ armor, so that's kinda a given.
> 
> ...




Yes, I made that assumption since all size altering spells (TMK) have durations which are not instantaneous (Enlarge, Polymorphs, Righteous Might, Shapechange, Shrink Item, etc.) and most are transmutations (I cannot think of one which is not).

Personally, I like when the rules work the same, not when you have exceptions that are not called out in the rules. DMG page 9: "Look to any similar circumstance that is covered in a rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstances."

But, if your armor (or ring or bracers or whatever) reverts back in size, you can have a problem even if you were not polymorphed (7 foot tall Barbarian with a Ring of Water Breathing suddenly has a pinky sized ring on his huge finger or his armor is suddenly dwarf sized again).

Both interpretations could have an issue.


This is similar to the golem issue. Constructs are magical and should be suppressed in a Antimagic Field, but WotC in its infinite wisdom decided against that. Not sure why. Did they change that in 3.5?


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## Otterscrubber (Oct 29, 2003)

Well thread got sidetracked a bit.  I have not heard any real arguements that answer the main question, mainly is there anything in the rules that states clearly that clothing is NOT just crappy armor.  The main reason here is that some players in our campaign are bringing it up and I dont want to rule 0 this one, I would like to be able to say, "This is why it is not considered an armor type."  In any event, even if clothing were considered to be armor with no AC bonus and no max dex bonus it would still have to fall into the Light Armor category, thus making it useless to monks?  I will probably just end up saying ,"because I said so", but would like to avoid that.


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## Artoomis (Oct 29, 2003)

You've got it backwards.  The question is NOT where in the rules is it written that clothing is NOT armor, the question is where is it clearly stated in the rules that it IS armor?

The other way takes you down the road of silly questions like: where is the rule does it state that shoes are not rings?  Well, it doesn't, of course, because shoes are c;learly NOT rings, just as clothes are not armor.

If you have players that wish to enchant clothes as if it were armor, have THEM show YOU where it is allowed in the rules.  They will not be able to do it.

Core rules simply do not allow it.  You can be very generous and allow it in various ways as has been already explained.

Note that a robe with a +5 armor bonus is STILL not armor and cannot be enchanted as armor.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 29, 2003)

Otterscrubber said:
			
		

> I would like to be able to say, "This is why it is not considered an armor type."  In any event, even if clothing were considered to be armor with no AC bonus and no max dex bonus it would still have to fall into the Light Armor category, thus making it useless to monks?




And that's exactly why.

The pictures all show Ember wearing clothes, but she's never listed as losing her monk abilities on account of it... therefore clothes are not armor.

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Oct 29, 2003)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> If you have players that wish to enchant clothes as if it were armor, have THEM show YOU where it is allowed in the rules.  They will not be able to do it.
> 
> Core rules simply do not allow it.  You can be very generous and allow it in various ways as has been already explained.




Precisely.

As a DM, it is sometimes difficult to explain why the spell (Magic Vestment) allows a certain effect (the short term add an Enhancement bonus to non-armor clothing), but the feat (Craft Magic Arms and Armor) does not (the long term add an Enhancement bonus to armor).

Sometimes as DM, you just have to say: "That's the way it is". One spell as an exception does not mean that the general rule has an exception. The spell clearly states that it is an exception ("for the purposes of this spell").

Clothing is not armor. It does not affect Monks. Have your players show you where in the rules that it says that it is and does.


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## dcollins (Oct 29, 2003)

Otterscrubber said:
			
		

> Well thread got sidetracked a bit.  I have not heard any real arguements that answer the main question, mainly is there anything in the rules that states clearly that clothing is NOT just crappy armor.




(1) Clothing is not listed in the "Armor" table in the PHB.
(2) Clothing takes a different slot than armor in the list in the DMG.
(3) Clothing does not appear in the "Random Armor Type" table in the DMG.
(4) Clothing does not by itself have an Armor Bonus.
There are probably others.


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## Saeviomagy (Oct 29, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Well, then I'm not sure what your point was.
> 
> What's the _effective_ difference between a shirt with a +5 Armor bonus, and a shirt with a +5 Enhancement bonus to a +0 Armor bonus?
> 
> ...



Why wouldn't magic vestment stack with a shirt with a +5 armour bonus?


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## Pagan priest (Oct 29, 2003)

Ah, but the _primary_ function of clothes is to be armor.  The secondary function is to display status.  Any nudist could have cleared this up at the very beginning.

Clothing defends angainst the environment.  In a very real sense it is armor... only good enough to help protect you from brambles and such.  Jeans can save a knee from being skinned if you trip, etc. etc. etc.

I don't see a problem with allowing clothes to be enhanced just like armor.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 29, 2003)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> Why wouldn't magic vestment stack with a shirt with a +5 armour bonus?




Because Magic Vestment treats clothing as having a +0 armor bonus, and that's what it would enhance.  You can't cast Magic Vestment on Bracers of Armor to enhance that Armor Bonus, so neither could you cast Magic Vestment on Bracers of Armor reslotted into a shirt and expect to enhance _that_ Armor bonus... only the one it gets by virtue of being a shirt that's the target of Magic Vestment (+0).

-Hyp.


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## Camarath (Oct 29, 2003)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> Why wouldn't magic vestment stack with a shirt with a +5 armour bonus?



 Where is my regular clothing with +5 armor bonus?  

Anyhow, wile it is not absolutely clear from the wording, since regular is not a well defined term in the rules (What is regular in D&D anyway?), I believe that regular is meant to mean mundane non-magical clothing in this case. That would bar it form being cast on a magical item IMO.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 29, 2003)

Pagan priest said:
			
		

> I don't see a problem with allowing clothes to be enhanced just like armor.




It leads to a lot of naked monks.

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Oct 29, 2003)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> Why wouldn't magic vestment stack with a shirt with a +5 armour bonus?




In 3E, it wouldn't if cast on a shield because Enhancement bonuses for a shield stack with Enhancement bonuses for armor, but not with an Armor bonus.

In 3E, it wouldn't if cast on an Armor Bonus shirt because Enhancement bonuses for armor doesn't stack with an Armor bonus.

In 3.5, it would stack if cast on a shield because Enhancement bonuses for a shield stack with Armor bonuses, even on a shirt (presumably, I do not have the 3.5 rules and the 3.5 SRD was unclear where I looked).

In 3.5, it wouldn't if cast on an Armor Bonus shirt because Enhancement bonuses for armor doesn't stack with an Armor bonus.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 29, 2003)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> In 3E, it wouldn't if cast on a shield because Enhancement bonuses for a shield stack with Enhancement bonuses for armor, but not with an Armor bonus.
> 
> In 3E, it wouldn't if cast on armor because Enhancement bonuses for armor doesn't stack with an Armor bonus.
> 
> ...




He meant if you had clothing with a +5 armor bonus (like reslotted Bracers or Robe of the Archmagi into clothing form) and then cast Magic Vestment _on the clothing_.

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Oct 29, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> He meant if you had clothing with a +5 armor bonus (like reslotted Bracers or Robe of the Archmagi into clothing form) and then cast Magic Vestment _on the clothing_.




Yup. I edited my message to mean what I meant, not what I wrote. It's getting late.


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## Saeviomagy (Oct 29, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> He meant if you had clothing with a +5 armor bonus (like reslotted Bracers or Robe of the Archmagi into clothing form) and then cast Magic Vestment _on the clothing_.
> 
> -Hyp.



Yeah, looking at it, the only reason that magic vestment DOESN'T stack is that the spell specifically says "treat clothing as having an AC bonus of 0 for this spell", which means the spell won't enhance an existing armour bonus.

However in general it would appear that you could make bracers of armour, and then apply enhancement bonuses to their armour seperately, since they provide an armour bonus, not an enhancement bonus to armour...


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 29, 2003)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> However in general it would appear that you could make bracers of armour, and then apply enhancement bonuses to their armour seperately, since they provide an armour bonus, not an enhancement bonus to armour...




Hmm?  Not sure what you're saying - can you give an example?

-Hyp.


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## Artoomis (Oct 30, 2003)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> ...However in general it would appear that you could make bracers of armour, and then apply enhancement bonuses to their armour seperately, since they provide an armour bonus, not an enhancement bonus to armour...




Nope - not by the core rules, anyway.  Armor enchantments of any sort are for armor only.

If you use rules other than the core rules, you may place armor enchantments on bracers.  Not on clothes, though.  I have not seen any rules for that other than house rules.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 30, 2003)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> If you use rules other than the core rules, you may place armor enchantments on bracers.  Not on clothes, though.  I have not seen any rules for that other than house rules.




Well, if you allow them on Bracers, and if you allow reslotting of Wondrous Items (Headband of Wisdom, Periapt of Charisma, Bracers of Mighty Fists) - neither of which are _strictly_ house rules, given that 3.5 has a whole table devoted to body slot affinities and A&EG was supposed to be semi 3.5-compatible - then the door's already open.

-Hyp.


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## Artoomis (Oct 30, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Well, if you allow them on Bracers, and if you allow reslotting of Wondrous Items (Headband of Wisdom, Periapt of Charisma, Bracers of Mighty Fists) - neither of which are _strictly_ house rules, given that 3.5 has a whole table devoted to body slot affinities and A&EG was supposed to be semi 3.5-compatible - then the door's already open.
> 
> -Hyp.




Correct.  If you use rules _other than core rules_.  Yes, I suppose you could do it by paying the re-slotting cost IF you allow the bracers to have armor  enchantments in A&EG.

It would be expensive, but I suppose it's possible using re-slotting plus A&EG rules.


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## Saeviomagy (Oct 30, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Hmm?  Not sure what you're saying - can you give an example?
> 
> -Hyp.



Well, say I have some item (such as the robe of the archmagi, or bracers of armour), and I convince my GM to allow me to enchant it like armour.

They grant an armour bonus, in exactly the same way as armour itself does. Which means I then enchant them with an enhancement to their ac. I end up with +5 bracers of armour +8, for a total of +13 ac.

Of course this requires a GM which lets you re-slot armour enhancements onto something else.

OK, then how about this:

"Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses)"
- SRD entry on "magic armor"

So - Bracers of armor +8, +5 padded armour. Apparently the 'enhancement bonus' on the armour stacks with regular armor bonuses... Total of 13 AC.

Now if only I could get rid of the 5% arcane failure...


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 30, 2003)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> They grant an armour bonus, in exactly the same way as armour itself does. Which means I then enchant them with an enhancement to their ac. I end up with +5 bracers of armour +8, for a total of +13 ac.




Ah.  No.  An enhancement bonus does not increase "an armor bonus", it increases "Armor's bonus".  As in, the armor bonus _of armor_.  Bracers of Armor provide an armor bonus, but they are not _armor_, so you cannot apply an enhancement bonus to the armor bonus of the bracers.



> So - Bracers of armor +8, +5 padded armour. Apparently the 'enhancement bonus' on the armour stacks with regular armor bonuses... Total of 13 AC.




Firstly, I'd dispute terming the armor bonus provided by Bracers a "regular" armor bonus.

But the SRD quote is loosely worded, and doesn't - in isolation - adequately express what's happening.

An enhancement bonus on a suit of armor does not, exactly, "stack" with the armor bonus in the sense that the word is usually used.  The armor bonus modifies AC; the enhancement bonus does not.  What the enhancement bonus does it to _change_ the armor bonus of the suit of armor.

Padded armor gives a +1 armor bonus that does not stack with +8 Bracers.  +5 Padded armor gives a +6 armor bonus - the +1 armor bonus modified by the +5 enhancement bonus - that does not stack with the +8 Bracers.

In a sense, the enhancement bonus "stacks" with the armor bonus... but only the "regular" armor bonus of the suit of armor to which it is applied.

-Hyp.


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