# Darksun Teasers



## Phaezen (Sep 30, 2009)

Rich Baker posted an interesting entry on his blog in the Wizards community (here)

He speaks on length about the silt sea, pointing towards some possibly interesting fluff they have created to explain its existance.  Other small tidbits include the mentioning of muls as a race and Templars.


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 30, 2009)

GHAH.  That text hurts my eyes _SO MUCH_.  Why would you use super light colored text with a pure white background...?!

Also, OH LOL at the last paragraph.  Already we see the sudden retcon connection to the elemental chaos or to the Primordials.  I've got 11 months to enjoy this potential incoming train wreck and they're not giving any delays!


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## PurpleXVI (Sep 30, 2009)

Oh boy, I sure can't wait for them to take a great big greasy dump all over Dark Sun.

Dark Sun does not have "inconsistencies" that need fixing. All these dumb jackasses need to do is stat up the creatures and noteworthy NPC's, then clarify that the Prism Pentad never happened. Then everyone could maybe enjoy the setting.

Instead they're obviously already messing with the ecology and have this bizarre idea that they need to "fix" the setting. Yeah, this is going to be goddamn awful and it's going to lose everything that was good about it.

Five bucks says the Dray are going to be Dragonborn and that they're somehow going to wrangle in Tieflings as a race.

The main issue here, though, is that 2nd ed was more of a 1st edition thing. In that you could, and were going to, die from a single bad roll. Something could burst out of the sand and eat you. And that was it. You were screwed. There was a reason they had a Paranoia-like insistency on you making multiple characters from the get-go, and starting at 3rd level just so you had a chance of making it through the day in one piece.

3rd edition took this way. More power, more heroism, less grit. 4th edition? There's no darkness or grit there at all. All players are heroes. None of them are just determined peasants or people who have to fight to survive. Dark Sun is a setting where you check twice before even drinking from an oasis and trust no one, not even your own party.

Plus, 3+rd edition psionics will not work in Dark Sun. 2nd ed psionics were extremely subtle and more of a toolbox than an armoury. But from 3rd edition onwards they've been more like arcane magic with a mana pool.

PS: Cirno, I hate you for letting me read that link.

EDIT

After thinking about it for a bit, I'm not desperately angry about the fact that they're changing the setting. No one sensible would be. My issue is that they're changing the PREMISE, like the fundamental rules of Athas. What races there are, how brutal it is, the fact that there no Gods(or Primordials, or anything of that order.).

If they wanted to alter the setting, they should have kept the basic premise, which is everything up till the start of the Cleansing Wars and the betrayal of Rajaat by his Champions. Maybe they failed at defeating and banishing him, maybe they only crippled him or he blasted most of them to ash with his immense powers. Maybe the world is instead trapped in a perilous balance between Rajaat and his Champions, both sides seeking to destroy the other without leaving themselves with no prize left to claim at the very end.

That would have been an interesting variation on the basic idea which I could have enjoyed.

EDIT OF EDIT

In fact, what they're kind of doing is like Twilight vs Dracula. With their Athas being Twilight, and the old Athas being Dracula. If they really want to change the fundamental goddamn rules of the thing so badly, they shouldn't try to steal the name. Then they should make their own damn setting.


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## Thaumaturge (Sep 30, 2009)

I think that looks interesting, and I continue to be excited for 4e Dark Sun.  I don't mind revisions if they help Dark Sun be *more* Dark Sun, and the observation about the Silt Sea not all blowing away is one that had struck me before.

Thaumaturge.

Wait.  I just posted without taking the Lord's name in vain, invoking 'censored' smileys, or implying I'm way smarter/better at design than someone.  I must be Interneting wrong.


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## darjr (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> GHAH.  That text hurts my eyes _SO MUCH_.  Why would you use super light colored text with a pure white background...?




what? Black text on a white background to much contrast for you?

It seems to me that the emphasis was on leaving things as they were.


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## amysrevenge (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm not filled with nerdrage upon reading this (or any other preview material).  I reckon that the _spirit_ of the setting is being preserved, and the _minor details_ can be fiddled with all they like.

Hey, retcon cosmology, shoehorn in tieflings, make whatever changes are necessary to explain why things happened the way they did now that wizards/arcanists aren't more powerful than everyone else by default.  As long as we have city-states ruled by tyrants, separated by vast deserts populated by weirdo monsters*, it's Dark Sun.

*Oh, and cannibal halflings.


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## Nellisir (Sep 30, 2009)

darjr said:


> what? Black text on a white background to much contrast for you?
> 
> It seems to me that the emphasis was on leaving things as they were.



It's not black.  It's light gray on white.


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 30, 2009)

darjr said:


> what? Black text on a white background to much contrast for you?
> 
> It seems to me that the emphasis was on leaving things as they were.




Black?

It was light grey for me and everyone else I showed it to


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## wedgeski (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> GHAH.  That text hurts my eyes _SO MUCH_.  Why would you use super light colored text with a pure white background...?!



What on earth are you _ON_ about?


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## Thaumaturge (Sep 30, 2009)

Weird.  It's grey (or gray if you prefer) in IE8 or Chrome, but black in Firefox.

Thaumaturge.


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 30, 2009)

amysrevenge said:


> I reckon that the _spirit_ of the setting is being preserved, and the _minor details_ can be fiddled with all they like.
> 
> ...
> 
> Hey, retcon cosmology, shoehorn in tieflings, make whatever changes are necessary




I would argue that these *aren't necessary* and that they aren't just minor details, but do indeed interfere big time with the spirit of the setting.

That's the big divide that's going to happen over Dark Sun, and why I think it's going to be such a glorious train wreck.  Fans like, say, Purple up there, are old fans of Dark Sun.  They don't want tieflings or a retconned cosmology.

On the other hand of the spectrum, you have people who haven't really played Dark Sun and don't really care.  They go "Man whatever, just give the funky creatures!"

I think it comes down to this: What do you put more emphasis in?  The 4e part, or the Dark Sun part?


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 30, 2009)

Thaumaturge said:


> Weird.  It's grey (or gray if you prefer) in IE8 or Chrome, but black in Firefox.
> 
> Thaumaturge.




Not to muddy the waters more, but I use Firefox and it was light grey to me :\


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## Thaumaturge (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Not to muddy the waters more, but I use Firefox and it was light grey to me :\




Hmm.. Perhaps the server has percentile dice it rolls each time the page is accessed. 

Thaumaturge.


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## catsclaw227 (Sep 30, 2009)

Yea, I don't see anything wrong with his post.  Sounds like they ARE trying to keep Athas like it was.  I like it so far.



			
				PurpleXVI said:
			
		

> Instead they're obviously already messing with the ecology and have this bizarre idea that they need to "fix" the setting. Yeah, this is going to be goddamn awful and it's going to lose everything that was good about it.



I don't see this in his post at all. Could you clarify?  

Oh, and welcome to EnWorld! (unless this is an existing users alt   )


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## catsclaw227 (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Not to muddy the waters more, but I use Firefox and it was light grey to me :\



Firefox for me and black text.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> That's the big divide that's going to happen over Dark Sun, and why I think it's going to be such a glorious train wreck.  Fans like, say, Purple up there, are old fans of Dark Sun.  They don't want tieflings or a retconned cosmology.
> 
> On the other hand of the spectrum, you have people who haven't really played Dark Sun and don't really care.  They go "Man whatever, just give the funky creatures!"
> 
> I think it comes down to this: What do you put more emphasis in?  The 4e part, or the Dark Sun part?




This is a 100% _false_ dichotomy.

I'm a huge fan of old Dark Sun. It's one of my three favorite settings of the 1E/2E era.

And I find the idea that (just to pull an example from earlier in the thread) making the dray into dragonborn "ruins" the setting to be so utterly nonsensical that I almost have to assume people are looking for reasons to be upset.

What made Dark Sun great was the _themes_ of the setting. The desertscape, the tyrannical sorcerer-kings, the brutal city-states, the gladiatorial conflict, the struggle for mere survival (let alone freedom)...

_None_ of this is dependent on whether or not a specific race is added into the setting in 4E.

Seriously, I've yet to see _anyone _offer a reasonable explanation of _why_ it would be bad if the dray were dragonborn, or _why_ it would be bad to include tieflings, other than "Well, they weren't there before!" _If_ such things are added in without any effort at making them fit the mood, theme, and feel of Dark Sun, then yes, that would be a bad thing. But if they're included in a way that fits, where's the downside?


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## mudbunny (Sep 30, 2009)

Firefox/black text on white.


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## UniversalMonster (Sep 30, 2009)

Tieflings would be awesome in Dark Sun. 

Some people are just not going to be pleased no matter what unless they change their name to TSR and re-release the 1991 boxed set. 

I'm excited..!


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## Herschel (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm a big fan of 2E Dark Sun and am looking forward to the 4E version even with revisions. Tieflings, while hated by me, aren't hard to make fit. Neither are gnomes or any other races so long as they can be savage (eladrin are the biggest stretch for me but I still think of them as a weird cross of elf and outsider).


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## Fanaelialae (Sep 30, 2009)

The text shows as regular, plain black in my browser (Firefox).

So far it doesn't sound like they've made any drastic changes.  I'm looking forward to seeing more.  

I'd be a bit surprised if they retconned Tieflings into the setting (though I think they'd be okay as some kind of extremely rare race that just isn't encountered much, if they're going to go that route).  I also don't see any issue with Primordials in the setting, depending on how they're handled (DS has always had a pretty heavy elemental theme, so hopefully any Primordials will be recast as elemental exemplars or lords).

It's a bit premature (IMO) to decry them as having ruined Dark Sun considering we've seen all of two small blog entries on the topic.


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 30, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Seriously, I've yet to see _anyone _offer a reasonable explanation of _why_ it would be bad if the dray were dragonborn, or _why_ it would be bad to include tieflings, other than "Well, they weren't there before!" _If_ such things are added in without any effort at making them fit the mood, theme, and feel of Dark Sun, then yes, that would be a bad thing. But if they're included in a way that fits, where's the downside?




It's not necessary?

Yes there are some 4e fans that were also Dark Sun fans.  I'm not saying you don't exist.  I'm saying you're rare - VERY rare - to the point of being potentially statistically insignificant (NOT SAYING THAT AS AN INSULT).

Why do people >:| at dragonborn and tieflings?  Because it's an unnecessary change.  Literally, it's a change that is 100% not needed.

This is why 4e and Dark Sun have such a clash.  4e is 100% "Everything is core, use everything, a kitchen sink in every already existing kitchen sink."

Dark Sun is the exact polar opposite of this.

On top of that, there's also the worry of fluff carried over.  Instead of dragonborn being altered to fit the dray, it'll be the other way around - that dray will be altered to fit the dragonborn.


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## amysrevenge (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> I think it comes down to this: What do you put more emphasis in?  The 4e part, or the Dark Sun part?




Sadly, it will indeed probably come down to that.  Personally, I would have asked what do you put more emphasis in?  The specific minor details part, or the general feel of the setting part?


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## Nifft (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Yes there are some 4e fans that were also Dark Sun fans.  I'm not saying you don't exist.  I'm saying you're rare - VERY rare - to the point of being potentially statistically insignificant



 You do realize we're talking about a *Dark Sun* book for *Fourth Edition*, right?

Cheers, -- N


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## PurpleXVI (Sep 30, 2009)

Herschel said:


> I'm a big fan of 2E Dark Sun and am looking forward to the 4E version even with revisions. Tieflings, while hated by me, aren't hard to make fit. Neither are gnomes or any other races so long as they can be savage (eladrin are the biggest stretch for me but I still think of them as a weird cross of elf and outsider).




Ah, but you can't have that, because Dark Sun has no outsiders. Permanent. It has no Baatezu, no Devas. At most it has some sort of Genies since they are more Elemental creatures than Outer Planar, but they do not produce Tieflings and in fact I'm not sure they can even crossbreed with humans.

And if you still have Gnomes and so on, what the hell's the point of the Cleansing Wars? If the Cleansing Wars just cut down population numbers a bit and maybe mauled some races no one was ever going to play anyway, what's the point? Then you might as well excise that MAJOR DAMN POINT from the setting entirely.


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## PurpleXVI (Sep 30, 2009)

amysrevenge said:


> Sadly, it will indeed probably come down to that.  Personally, I would have asked what do you put more emphasis in?  The specific minor details part, or the general feel of the setting part?




The lack of Gods or connection to anything non-Elementally planar is an INCREDIBLY major part of the setting. It means there's really next to no easy healing magic or anything of that order. No one to pray to for help when your ass is truly on the line. No great moral or ethical commandments laid down from above. No assured bountiful afterlife as a reward for altruism.

Things like that would probably change people's outlooks on the world quite a lot compared to your average D&D character.


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## PurpleXVI (Sep 30, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> And I find the idea that (just to pull an example from earlier in the thread) making the dray into dragonborn "ruins" the setting to be so utterly nonsensical that I almost have to assume people are looking for reasons to be upset.






Mouseferatu said:


> _None_ of this is dependent on whether or not a specific race is added into the setting in 4E.




Thing is, short of humans, all the Dark Sun races were altered from their basic D&D cousins. Dark Sun halflings, giants, elves and even dwarves were nothing like they were in the rest of D&D. They were all more savage and alien to humanity.

They'd have to severely alter Tieflings or Dragonborn or whatever they try to cram into the setting. Plus, again, Dark Sun is a blasted and wasted world. It's not a bountiful basket of hundreds of sentient races. It's got a handful of sentients theoretically capable of benevolence, two handfuls of sentients who want to eat your flesh and a cartload of creatures that can only think of things in terms of food and not food.

Dark Sun Elves were not Elves, Dark Sun Dray were not Dragonborn, Dark Sun Dwarves were not just Dwarves.


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## Mercutio01 (Sep 30, 2009)

Herschel said:


> Neither are gnomes



Well, gnomes were specifically and deliberately left out.

Ari, to turn the argument around--why *should* those races be shoehorned into a setting that was originally created without them?  Regardless if it can be made to fit the idea/theme or not, what good reason do they have to try to force in an element that wasn't there before?  Just to ensure that everything "core" for 4e is truly available in every setting?

That's the only reason I can see for forcing in races that didn't exist before.


And honestly, is FR any better because dragonborn were mysteriously pulled into Toril during the Spellplague?  If that's an example of "made to fit the theme," I can do without it.


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## UniversalMonster (Sep 30, 2009)

Screw canon. I want desert tieflings with bone weapons battling savage tentacle monsters in a trackless desert. 

Anyone _that _concerned with canon..I guarantee already owns more 1990s-era Dark Sun material than I will ever even read about on Wikipedia, so I'm sure they won't be affected. They already have their stuff.


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 30, 2009)

Nifft said:


> You do realize we're talking about a *Dark Sun* book for *Fourth Edition*, right?
> 
> Cheers, -- N




So?

We had *Forgotten Realms* for *Fourth Edition* and yet most of the outspoken fans of that were also outspoken of their _hate_ for FR in previous editions.


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## AllisterH (Sep 30, 2009)

??????

What am I missing here?

The only thing in the blog that I saw was Baker mentioning putting a ring of mountains to prevent the dust bowl from filling up to clear up a contradiction in the Wanderer's journal.

And the mention of explaining what the Silt actually is and how it came about?

Is this what we're arguing about?

(I checked for dragonborn and tiefling and I didn't even see a brief mention of that? Seriously, am I missing something here????)

Oh yeah, Chrome user and it is black text on white background...Small, but readable.


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 30, 2009)

Peter said:


> Screw canon. I want desert tieflings with bone weapons battling savage tentacle monsters in a trackless desert.
> 
> Anyone _that _concerned with canon..I guarantee already owns more 1990s-era Dark Sun material than I will ever even read about on Wikipedia, so I'm sure they won't be affected. They already have their stuff.




Then why even make 4e Dark Sun if it's just going to be the 4e GENERIC FANTASY SETTING...ONLY WITH SAND!

Seriously, why make Dark Sun if it's *NOT GOING TO BE DARK SUN*?

Also, thank you for proving my earlier point for me.


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 30, 2009)

AllisterH said:


> ??????
> 
> What am I missing here?
> 
> ...




It's regarding his commentary of offhand inserting the Elemental Chaos and Primordials into the setting.

Since the 4e Dark Sun was announced, people have been holding their breath, waiting to see if they're going to take an FR approach (Change everything!) or an Eberron approach (Change almost nothing!)

When the first blog post mentions some changes that could have very hefty alterations to the setting, people start >:|ing


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## AllisterH (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> It's regarding his commentary of offhand inserting the Elemental Chaos and Primordials into the setting.
> 
> Since the 4e Dark Sun was announced, people have been holding their breath, waiting to see if they're going to take an FR approach (Change everything!) or an Eberron approach (Change almost nothing!)
> 
> When the first blog post mentions some changes that could have very hefty alterations to the setting, people start >:|ing




Not exactly sure how Primordials contradict anything....Seriously, I'm reading it and all Baker mentions that if gods don't exist on Athas, did a primordial do it and if so, is it still there or was it because of Rajaat's original spell?

You guys are REALLY jumping to conclusions here...


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## GMforPowergamers (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> It's regarding his commentary of offhand inserting the Elemental Chaos and Primordials into the setting.



...um those two concepts fit perfect...why is that a problem??? I also hope to see genesi...becuse  in a world with little to no outer planes but still tied to the elemental ones...what is the problem???



> Since the 4e Dark Sun was announced, people have been holding their breath, waiting to see if they're going to take an FR approach (Change everything!) or an Eberron approach (Change almost nothing!)



I personaly am hoping this is the middle ground setting in that regard...



> When the first blog post mentions some changes that could have very hefty alterations to the setting, people start >:|ing



so Had he said elemental planes/pera planes and elemental lords it would be diffrent?

4e turnes the elmental lords into primordals...that is the same...it turned 4 planes with 16 bleed over planes into 1 plne of pure chaos...is that reall the probleem?


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## catsclaw227 (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> It's regarding his commentary of offhand inserting the Elemental Chaos and Primordials into the setting.
> 
> Since the 4e Dark Sun was announced, people have been holding their breath, waiting to see if they're going to take an FR approach (Change everything!) or an Eberron approach (Change almost nothing!)
> 
> When the first blog post mentions some changes that could have very hefty alterations to the setting, people start >:|ing



OK, then help me understand.  

I was not ever a DS expert, but was there anything written that would rule out there being Primordials buried deep within Athas or hidden from what was known about Athas? 

Why would having primordials connected to Athas be a bad thing?


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## Henrix (Sep 30, 2009)

I think the elemental chaos and primordials could fit in really well in Athas.


And cut down on the rage, please, there's no need for it. If you want old Dark Sun look for it on eBay.


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## Obryn (Sep 30, 2009)

PurpleXVI said:


> Five bucks says the Dray are going to be Dragonborn and that they're somehow going to wrangle in Tieflings as a race.



I'd say that there's about a 90% chance that the Dray are going to be dragonborn, but as a huge Dark Sun fan myself, I can't for a moment bring myself to care.

I am also 100% positive that a new 4e setting will never, ever say, "You may not use Tieflings in this setting."  It won't happen.  What you will almost certainly see happen is something like they did for off-race Dragonmarks in Eberron.  Something like, "There are no known Gnomes in Athas.  They are believed to be extinct from Rajaat's Cleansing Wars.  If one of your players runs a gnome, they may very well be the only one, and it could do way freaky things to the setting, possibly even igniting new Cleansing Wars or at the least earning the enmity of some Sorcerer-Kings."



> After thinking about it for a bit, I'm not desperately angry about the fact that they're changing the setting. No one sensible would be. My issue is that they're changing the PREMISE, like the fundamental rules of Athas. What races there are, how brutal it is, the fact that there no Gods(or Primordials, or anything of that order.).



The Primordials are a pretty decent fit for Athas, from everything I've read.  I'm going to wait and see, rather than get my panties in a bunch over speculation.  Primordials could suck in the setting, or they could be a new and interesting way of re-envisioning it.  I'll withhold my judgement until, you know, I can actually see the setting.

See above as for the races.  However, IMO what was important for Athas wasn't _what_ races were present - it's _how_ the races were presented.  All of them were existing races with a Dark Sun, post-apocalyptic, twist.  If they do the same to other races, it's a job well done in my book.

There's no reason the list of races has to be set in stone.  "No Gnomes" was hardly a major defining feature of Dark Sun, cleansing wars or no cleansing wars.  OTOH, cannibalistic jungle-dwelling halflings, dune-running elves, and bald dwarves _were._

Heck; TSR expanded the list pretty greatly during the revised setting, too.  Where were the hints of Pterrans or Aarakocra in the original box set?  WotC would not be the first one to add new races to the setting, so what's the issue?  Is it that only TSR had the right to do so, and they're not TSR?



> Ah, but you can't have that, because Dark Sun has no outsiders. Permanent. It has no Baatezu, no Devas. At most it has some sort of Genies since they are more Elemental creatures than Outer Planar, but they do not produce Tieflings and in fact I'm not sure they can even crossbreed with humans.



Yeah, and it also has no githyanki or anything to do with the Astral Plane!  Ohwait...



> The lack of Gods or connection to anything non-Elementally planar is an INCREDIBLY major part of the setting. It means there's really next to no easy healing magic or anything of that order. No one to pray to for help when your ass is truly on the line. No great moral or ethical commandments laid down from above. No assured bountiful afterlife as a reward for altruism.



No easy healing?  The druids in my 2e games would disagree with you!

Also, I completely fail to see how any of the above is incompatible with Primordials.  In fact, it kinda fits right in, thematically.

-O


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## Obryn (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> When the first blog post mentions some changes that could have very hefty alterations to the setting, people start >:|ing



I don't see all too many people in this thread complaining - mostly it's you telling me why I, as a fan of Dark Sun and a fan of 4e, _should _be outraged.  And apparently gleefully fomenting a conflict that's all been hashed out in a few threads in August - which Purple Guy apparently missed.

-O


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 30, 2009)

Okay, folks, here's the thing...

As I said before, people are creating a dichotomy where none exists. People are saying that the options are either A) 100% identical to what came before, or B) it's not Dark Sun except in name.

But this isn't accurate. Frankly, there's a _huge _amount of middle ground.

As someone said, elves and dwarves were changed from 2E core to 2E Dark Sun. And that's true, and I would definitely want a 4E DS to keep those changes. But why, then, assume that there wouldn't be similar flavor tweaks to dragonborn and tieflings? That particular argument is a non-starter.

As to the question of "Why?"

As Nifft said, this is 4E Dark Sun. It has to appeal to _two_ markets: Dark Sun fans, and 4E fans. There's overlap between those groups--more, I think, than Cirno suggests--but to be a successful product, the setting has to go beyond that overlap in its appeal, regardless of whether it's large or small. It has to bring 4E players to Dark Sun, and it has to bring Dark Sun fans to 4E.

The _only_ way to do that--on a _creative_ level, not just a marketing one--is to include elements that are recognizably 4E in a way that allows them to fit relatively seamlessly into the Dark Sun aesthetic.

Yes, there's a danger of diluting the feel of DS with 4E stuff. There's also a danger of making DS too inaccessible to portions of the 4E market by _not_ including them.

And the solution to that is exactly what I said before: Include much of it, but find a way to do so that's faithful to the moods and themes of the setting. It may not be an _easy_ tightrope to walk, but it's doable.

Does that mean that _everything_ must be included? Of course not. I'm right there with the folks who don't want to see the gods introduced to Athas, and I was gratified at the GenCon seminar to hear them say that divine characters are either unheard of, or at least astonishingly rare (at the DM's option).

But it _does_ mean that if something can be included _without_ diluting the themes and feel of the setting, it's at least worth considering.

So I say again... _If_ dragonborn are reflavored to dray, _if_ they can find a way to bring in tieflings that jives with DS history/cosmology, why not?

And then there's the purely creative aspect. As both a designer and a game, I find it much more interesting to say "How can X be made to work with Y?" than simply to say "X doesn't exist." It doesn't always work--I'll be the first to admit that--but if/when it _does_, it's a much more intriguing option.


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## MrMyth (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> It's not necessary?




Except it has a direct, tangible benefit: It makes the setting merge smoothly with the core rules, which makes it more accessible to new players (and everyone that enjoys those rules.)

Downside? If it is done while preserving the main themes and elements of the setting, than the only complaint is that it is different from the past, which is _no legitimate complaints at all.

_Also, I find your claim that 4E Dark Sun fans are "statistically insignificant" to be completely absurd. And clearly just outright wrong, given the enormous fan response from 4E players at the announcement of Dark Sun as the next setting. 

Look, if they fit in Dragonborn and the fluff completely doesn't fit in Dark Sun, that would be a legitimate complaint. But the fact is, they have shown they can completely revamp racial identity for Dark Sun with many of the other races (Elves, Halflings, etc). Why do you assume they won't do so as well for Dragonborn - since Eberron already shows they are willing to do so? Eladrin, Dragonborn, Tieflings - all were very smoothly placed in Eberron. Why expect they won't do the same with Dark Sun? 

I mean, look at this quote by Purple: "Dark Sun Elves were not Elves, Dark Sun Dray were not Dragonborn, Dark Sun Dwarves were not just Dwarves."

Isn't that an argument _in favor_ of Dragonborn being able to integrate smoothly into the setting? If you can have Dark Sun Elves who are different from Core Elves, why not the same for Dragonborn? What do you lose in making "Dark Sun Dragonborn", especially when they can already fit a pre-existing race in the fluff? You lose nothing, and you gain accessibility and character options. 

Man, seriously. Baker posts about coming up with reasons to put some thought into the geography of the setting, and this is cause for condemnation? A prelude to a 'trainwreck'? 

Yeah, there will be complaints about 4E Dark Sun. I think this thread has done a great job of proving how eager some are to start complaining without needing any actual issue to complain about.


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## amysrevenge (Sep 30, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Okay, folks, here's the thing...




So, we have Rouseketeers.  Can we have Mouseketeers?  Wait, that rings a bell somehow.


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## PurpleXVI (Sep 30, 2009)

Dark Sun has no Dragons. Dragonborn would be a poor fit.

Dark Sun 2nd ed druids do not have healing magic, you must have screwed up and used basic 2nd ed druids. Dark Sun druids are basically Elemental Clerics who draw their Elemental Spheres from the lands they guard.

Githyanki and the Astral Plane? I totally agree, that was an awful addition.

The expanded setting, in general, was terrible. Because it RUINED THE PREMISE. The premise was that Athas was an awful damn place. If you wanted something better, you had to sweat, toil, sacrifice and probably DIE to bring it about.

Then all of a sudden the heroes from the Prism Pentad waltz in and KILL A SORCERER-KING. They kill the DRAGON. Then Rajaat shows up and kills half of the remaining Sorcerer-Kings. Aside from all that was bad with it besides, those changes to the setting were completely rancid.


----------



## ki11erDM (Sep 30, 2009)

AllisterH said:


> Is this what we're arguing about?




Yes, to understand you have to let the nerdrage fully enter your soul.  Or use the ignore settings.  Just put about 6 or so people on it and life at ENWorld because a well mannered and reasonable place.


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## Hadrian the Builder (Sep 30, 2009)

It's a little ridiculous to get this worked up from a few off-hand comments by the designers.

I loved Dark Sun so much that it was the ONLY setting I bought when I was a kid. I still have that box and all the supplements. And I'm thrilled to see it come back.  I was at GenCon the day it was announced. The people in the room brought up the same concerns as there are here. Bill Slavicek acknowledged the concerns, and said that WotC recognizes that Dark Sun is differnt and needs some special treatment.

If you look at the mechanics, there's no racial ability or power that really kills the aesthetic of the setting. Just re-skinning descriptions can probably address most of the imagined problems. For players, feats can provide alot of Dark-Sun specific changes. Look at Eberron and compare the Valenaar elves to the Aerenal elves as monsters, for example. Look at the difference in halflings in eberron, the points of light setting and Forgotten Realms.  

Even scars on contemporary Athas left by ancient, remote, long-forgotten gods does not change the feel of the setting, since those same gods are remote and long-forgotten.

As to shoe-horning...the original map of Athas only showed the tablelands east to the sea of silt. The whole world has never been drawn, as it was in Eberron. There is plenty of room for every race, beyond the edges of the map. And they don't have to come from vibrant, thriving communities for there to be enough of them to produce  one hero.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 30, 2009)

PurpleXVI said:


> Dark Sun has no Dragons. Dragonborn would be a poor fit.




Are you sure you're thinking of 4E dragonborn, and not 3E? The dragonborn of 4E look as though they _could_ be related to dragons, and some of the individual world mythologies link them, but they absolutely don't require dragons to exist. There are 1,001 ways to use them--just in terms of flavor, without even needing to touch the mechanics much, if at all--without the tiniest connection to true dragons.


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## Hadrian the Builder (Sep 30, 2009)

In addition, there's nothing to say with certainty that there are NO dragons in Athas. Only that there may be only one, or very few.


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## Ktulu (Sep 30, 2009)

I, for one, enjoyed the blog-post.  I despise when bad cartography is put in published game settings (I'm looking at you plateau-on-a-plateau*) and I want the designers to look at the setting with a critical eye.  Otherwise, why put out a new version?  I want changes, I want the 4e mechanics/races input, otherwise, again, why put out a new version?  I'd still be forced to figure out where Dragonborn go when Johnny asks to play one.

I don't think all changes are successful, and sometimes they may go too far.  That being said, if no change is made, we never get anywhere.


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## Shroomy (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:
			
		

> Since the 4e Dark Sun was announced, people have been holding their breath, waiting to see if they're going to take an FR approach (Change everything!) or an Eberron approach (Change almost nothing!)




Even in Eberron they changed to the 4e cosmology and added the new races.


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## Umbran (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Yes there are some 4e fans that were also Dark Sun fans.  I'm not saying you don't exist.  I'm saying you're rare - VERY rare - to the point of being potentially statistically insignificant (NOT SAYING THAT AS AN INSULT).




It may not be an insult, but it is pulled out of thin air, is it not?  I'm sorry, but it is terribly weak as support of your position.


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## Obryn (Sep 30, 2009)

PurpleXVI said:


> Dark Sun has no Dragons. Dragonborn would be a poor fit.



...apart from the Dray, of course, which are basically humanoid dragons.



> Dark Sun 2nd ed druids do not have healing magic, you must have screwed up and used basic 2nd ed druids. Dark Sun druids are basically Elemental Clerics who draw their Elemental Spheres from the lands they guard.



Er, no....  I think _you're _confused.  Dark Sun druids - unlike clerics - had MAJOR (ie, _full_) access to the Cosmos domain, where all the good healing spells lived.  They had this in addition to their Elemental access.



> The expanded setting, in general, was terrible. Because it RUINED THE PREMISE. The premise was that Athas was an awful damn place. If you wanted something better, you had to sweat, toil, sacrifice and probably DIE to bring it about.
> 
> Then all of a sudden the heroes from the Prism Pentad waltz in and KILL A SORCERER-KING. They kill the DRAGON. Then Rajaat shows up and kills half of the remaining Sorcerer-Kings. Aside from all that was bad with it besides, those changes to the setting were completely rancid.



Hey, I don't disagree that the Revised setting wasn't as good as the original box set.  I more or less completely ignored it, myself.  But therein lies part of my point - _nothing_ will be that original box set again.  And if you're worried about WotC "ruining" the setting by adding 4e or planar elements, you're ignoring TSR's multitudinous changes.  You can't re-wreck something that's already been wrecked.  (Heck; WotC has already said they're reversing the timeline to pre-Prism Pentad!)

If you're worried about the setting's integrity, you're over a decade too late.  And if you ignored the Revised set's changes, _it's no harder to ignore 4e's_.

-O


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 30, 2009)

Ktulu said:


> I'd still be forced to figure out where Dragonborn go when Johnny asks to play one.




Again, this is why I think 4e and Dark Sun are completely at odds with each other.  4e demands you tell him where it goes.  Dark Sun says "They aren't in this setting."


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 30, 2009)

Getting it out of the way: Firefox 3.5/Windows 7, grey text on white background.



PurpleXVI said:


> Dark Sun has no Dragons. Dragonborn would be a poor fit.




Lizards are the predominant fauna in a desert setting.  So Dragonborn don't come from dragons, they come from lizards.  Easy fix, good fit.



			
				Hadrian the Builder said:
			
		

> It's a little ridiculous to get this worked up from a few off-hand comments by the designers.




What I think is going on here, and this is only my personal thought, is that we have many ardent fans of Dark Sun on the boards.  Heck, I'm one of them.  We also have people who are not fans of 4E, in which case I don't know why they're posting in this thread, since it's about the 4E version.  That's neither here nor there though.

With regards to the people who are willing to give Dark Sun 4E a try (and I'm assuming that's everyone in the thread, as per above), I think it's a disservice to chalk the strong reactions up to hysteria.  I think that some fans are not angry, but afraid that Dark Sun 4E is not going to be to their liking, for whatever reason, and that is being projected onto everything we're hearing about the setting, minor or not.  It's not terribly fair... after all, we know next to _nothing_ about the 4E version, other than it's coming out.  Certainly no one has read it, and no one is involved in it that is posting here.  

However, I wouldn't say it's unjustified... after all, 2E and 4E are vastly different creatures.  There will almost certainly be some give and take... it's not like Eberron, which was developed on the cusp of 4E.  Like Mouseferatu, I think that there will be something in the middle, especially regarding mechanics.  

For example, they _could_ state a ban all Divine classes and all Leaders to reduce healing (though I've come to realize there are no WotC ninjas that come to bash down your door).  What's more likely is to reduce healing surge values, or to re-flavor the Divine classes (except maybe Clerics) and replace the "Word" powers from Leaders.  That's just a spitball, five second look at it.

I agree that the reactions need not be so strong though.  It _could_ end up being a giant failure... or it could end being the best version of the campaign so far.  We just don't know.  That's why it's as important to keep an open mind as it is to be critical.

As Aristotle would put it, _phronimos_, on all sides.


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## Obryn (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Again, this is why I think 4e and Dark Sun are completely at odds with each other.  4e demands you tell him where it goes.  Dark Sun says "They aren't in this setting."



Really?  I think it's more like, "They are in this setting, but they are MORE METAL!  And they have better stats!  Also, you can play a bug or a bird or a dinosaur, so a humanoid with horns seems pretty tame!"

-O


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## Pseudonym (Sep 30, 2009)

Fanaelialae said:


> I'd be a bit surprised if they retconned Tieflings into the setting (though I think they'd be okay as some kind of extremely rare race that just isn't encountered much, if they're going to go that route).




I'd be surprised if they didn't retcon them in.  We'll also see shifters, deva and goliath too.  The idea seems to be that if it is exists in 4e, there needs to be a place for it in every setting, even if it wasn't there in a previous incarnation, such as with Eberron.  The key is making them seem as if they'd always been there, even when older fans of the setting know they hadn't.  I'm cautiously optimistic.


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## avin (Sep 30, 2009)

If somebody ask me I'll say that Wotc can put gnomes, dragonborn/dray, tieflings (fit darksun mood) in it, just changing the fluff. 

No gods and we're fine.


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## Mistwell (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> It's regarding his commentary of offhand inserting the Elemental Chaos and Primordials into the setting.




For reference, here is the paragraph you are referring to:



> I talked it over with the other designers, and we decided to let silt stand as it was described back in the 1991 boxed set. But that certainly demands at least some sort of explanation. If the Sea of Silt couldn't occur naturally but is there anyway, then clearly it must be what it is from extra-natural causes. We had another notion rattling around that Athas is a world more heavily influenced or sculpted by elemental powers than the typical fantasy world... so maybe the silt is a kind of terrain that you might be able to find in the Elemental Chaos. It's a mix of air, earth, and water that exists as something of an intrusion of elemental properties into the natural world of Athas. Something long ago *transformed* the sea into dust. The water didn't just evaporate or drain off (at least, not completely); it was changed into something else. *If Athas is a world where the gods are absent, was this the work of a Primordial? Does that Primordial remain in Athas, maintaining the Sea in its current state?* Or is it the effect of a colossal spell that was cast during the Cleansing Wars, much as the sun was darkened by Rajaat's creation of his Champions? Here's a spot where cleaning up an "inconsistency" pushes you into fantastic world-building and creative answers to a question. My fellow designers and I came up with an answer we liked; in about 11 months you can see for yourself which way we decided to go.




You asked "Why" he would insert Primordials and the Elemental Chaos when such is not necessary.  But, that's not what he said.  He speculated as to whether ONE primordial created the world originally, and what happened to that Primordial if that's what happened, and could he use a Primordial to explain the silt sea which DOES NOT MAKE SENSE in the original 2e explanation without some sort of magical explanation added.

The original 2e version never explains who created the world, what exactly happened long ago to make it this way, or why the silt sea stays as it is despite the fact that it defies the laws of physics.  Yet, the original set does offer up spirits of various elements, that are worshiped, and which do grant magical divine spells.  Who are those "spirits" and why are they just elemental spirits and why are they able to grant spells when normally "spirits" cannot grant divine spells?

So the "why" is in the text he wrote.  The 2e version leaves questions open, and he is considering answering those questions with 4e elements that naturally answer the questions.  That's a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.  

If you look for a train wreck, you will find it.  Because if you look at things in a negative light, you can succeed at shoehorning them into a negative.  That's true of any remake of any kind.  But, if you look for positives, you will find those as well.  

Me, I am going to wait and see.  So far, I am fine with the potential changes mentioned (and again, he's just speculating about things he should in fact speculate about).


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## Mistwell (Sep 30, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> OK, then help me understand.
> 
> I was not ever a DS expert, but was there anything written that would rule out there being Primordials buried deep within Athas or hidden from what was known about Athas?
> 
> Why would having primordials connected to Athas be a bad thing?




Not only was there nothing ruling it out, but it actually makes a lot of sense.  SOMETHING created the world, SOMETHING gave the elemental spirits much more power to connect with humanoids.


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## drothgery (Sep 30, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> Even in Eberron they changed to the 4e cosmology and added the new races.




4e FR - Realms shattering event & advancing the timeline
4e Eberron - Retcon 4e changes into the setting
4e Dark Sun - Reboot


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## Obryn (Sep 30, 2009)

Pseudonym said:


> The key is making them seem as if they'd always been there, even when older fans of the setting know they hadn't.  I'm cautiously optimistic.



Well, as someone else pointed out, the setting is only barely explored, at least officially.  (There are enterprising souls on the WotC boards busily mapping out the rest of Athas, but it's a product of their ingenuity, not of TSR/WotC.)

We have a lot of detail on the western tablelands - that is, the region west of the Sea of Silt, between it and the Ringing Mountains.

We have some detail right outside of that, including the Forest and the Dragon's Crown Mountains.

We also know a little about the Sea of Silt itself, including the city of Ur Draxa.

In the latter-era Dark Sun materials, we also have details on stuff to the north - the Jagged Cliffs region and the Last Sea.

Finally, to the West of all of this is apparently the Kreen Empire on the Crimson Savannah.  Given the Kreen propensity to eat their conquered foes, it's probably not peopled by anything else.

However, nothing beyond this has been officially detailed.  We know there's stuff on the other side of the Sea of Silt, and possibly more Sorcerer-Kings, but we have no (official) idea what.  We don't have any idea what's to the South, by and large, either.  (IIRC, there's something about a black plain, but I don't remember if that's a canonical source or not.)

Athas is a big place - an entire planet, even - and saying there could be no other races anywhere else is a bit of a stretch. 

-O


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## Crothian (Sep 30, 2009)

I just want to know if we are going to get Halflings coming back in a comet.  

The problem with Dark Sun is people like just a small part of it and want to disregard the rest and treat just what they like at sacred text.  I love Dark Sun and have most of the books.  I've been rereading all the novels as well.  There is a lot of crap in this setting.  I'm more worried about Wizards keeping the silly stuff then I am on how Teiflings will fit into the world.


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## DarthMouth (Sep 30, 2009)

MrMyth said:


> Isn't that an argument _in favor_ of Dragonborn being able to integrate smoothly into the setting? If you can have Dark Sun Elves who are different from Core Elves, why not the same for Dragonborn? What do you lose in making "Dark Sun Dragonborn", especially when they can already fit a pre-existing race in the fluff? You lose nothing, and you gain accessibility and character options.
> 
> Man, seriously. Baker posts about coming up with reasons to put some thought into the geography of the setting, and this is cause for condemnation? A prelude to a 'trainwreck'?
> 
> Yeah, there will be complaints about 4E Dark Sun. I think this thread has done a great job of proving how eager some are to start complaining without needing any actual issue to complain about.




This. Perfect. I can see Dray as twisted Dragonborn all way long.

And i think the elemental potential o D_Sun can be more explored too.. 

I dont mind forgotten primordials... 

tieflngs could be a harder task.. 

i realy like what i read..


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## avin (Sep 30, 2009)

Mistwell said:


> Not only was there nothing ruling it out, but it actually makes a lot of sense.  SOMETHING created the world, SOMETHING gave the elemental spirits much more power to connect with humanoids.




As long as Wotc don't start explaining every mistery that makes Dark Sun cool...


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## MrMyth (Sep 30, 2009)

PurpleXVI said:


> Dark Sun has no Dragons. Dragonborn would be a poor fit.




Given they already have an existing race of dragonmen, that argument holds little weight. 



PurpleXVI said:


> Dark Sun 2nd ed druids do not have healing magic, you must have screwed up and used basic 2nd ed druids. Dark Sun druids are basically Elemental Clerics who draw their Elemental Spheres from the lands they guard.




Man, seems like working in Primordials and elemental themes would be _perfect_ for the setting, doesn't it?



PurpleXVI said:


> The expanded setting, in general, was terrible. Because it RUINED THE PREMISE. The premise was that Athas was an awful damn place. If you wanted something better, you had to sweat, toil, sacrifice and probably DIE to bring it about.




Sounds like a good argument that making changes is fine, as long as they fit the premise and themes, yes?


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## Dannager (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Again, this is why I think 4e and Dark Sun are completely at odds with each other.  4e demands you tell him where it goes.  Dark Sun says "They aren't in this setting."



Yet.

My concept of Dark Sun isn't so restrictive.

Nothing is in a setting until you put it there.  You've just frozen Dark Sun as a setting in your mind and refuse to acknowledge that a setting can expand to include more than it originally did.  Which is unfortunate.


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## Phaezen (Sep 30, 2009)

I am more than happy to see what changes they will make to the Dark Sun setting, especially as it seems that they are thinking about the setting, what works, what makes sense and more importantly what doesn't.

Take for example adding a small mountain range between the Sea of Silt and the Dragons Bowl ,makes sense, for the reasons that Rich Baker gives, they were not just randomly thrown in.  They looked at the setting, saw a problem and found a solution.  If I don't like the solution when I see it, I can always break out the map from my 2nd Ed Dark Sun box set.  For those who are not familiar with the setting it won't really make that much of a difference.

Next June/July is too long to have to wait for the campaign setting, but so far, in my opinion, it seems to be in good hands.


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## Dausuul (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> It's regarding his commentary of offhand inserting the Elemental Chaos and Primordials into the setting.




We already knew there were going to be Primordials. They said as much in the announcement.


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## Phaezen (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> It's regarding his commentary of offhand inserting the Elemental Chaos and Primordials into the setting.
> |ing






Dausuul said:


> We already knew there were going to be Primordials. They said as much in the announcement.




You mean this quote



			
				WOTC_RichBaker said:
			
		

> Something long ago *transformed* the sea into dust. The water didn't just evaporate or drain off (at least, not completely); it was changed into something else. If Athas is a world where the gods are absent, was this the work of a Primordial? Does that Primordial remain in Athas, maintaining the Sea in its current state? Or is it the effect of a colossal spell that was cast during the Cleansing Wars, much as the sun was darkened by Rajaat's creation of his Champions? Here's a spot where cleaning up an "inconsistency" pushes you into fantastic world-building and creative answers to a question. My fellow designers and I came up with an answer we liked; in about 11 months you can see for yourself which way we decided to go.




He has not confirmed that they have added a primordial.  All he says is that it is is something they considered.


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## Dausuul (Sep 30, 2009)

Phaezen said:


> He has not confirmed that they have added a primordial.  All he says is that it is is something they considered.




No, I mean the original announcement of Dark Sun as the 2010 setting.



			
				JamesWyatt said:
			
		

> The gods of the setting are absent or dead, *replaced by elemental spirits tied to the ancient primordials*.




It's old news. Been out for a month and a half. Personally, I see no reason to be concerned about it; primordials make perfect sense in the context of Dark Sun.


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## Keefe the Thief (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Again, this is why I think 4e and Dark Sun are completely at odds with each other.  4e demands you tell him where it goes.  Dark Sun says "They aren't in this setting."




This is the setting that has continuously new races spawned at the Pristine Tower. Unknown humanoid goons crawling out of the desert is a CORE idea of Dark Sun. 

And Dragonborn can crawl.


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## Jhaelen (Sep 30, 2009)

Obryn said:


> ...apart from the Dray, of course, which are basically humanoid dragons.
> 
> 
> Er, no....  I think _you're _confused.  Dark Sun druids - unlike clerics - had MAJOR (ie, _full_) access to the Cosmos domain, where all the good healing spells lived.  They had this in addition to their Elemental access.
> ...



Thanks for making the reply I was going to make 

@ProfessorChirno: I'm a big fan of the 2E Darksun setting (probably the best campaign I ever DMed) and I like 4E - Gee, what a rare animal I must be 

You're btw. one of the few anti-everything-that-is-new people on these boards that aren't on my ignore-list, yet, because in about 1 in 50 threads you have something interesting to say; unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be one of them. But at least you incited an interesting discussion 

Dragonborn make lots of sense in a setting that already has about a dozen humanoid reptilian races. Darksun also had elemental drakes, btw. 
It'll be interesting to see what they'll do about the gnomes, though...


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## Phaezen (Sep 30, 2009)

Dausuul said:


> No, I mean the original announcement of Dark Sun as the 2010 setting.
> 
> 
> 
> It's old news. Been out for a month and a half. Personally, I see no reason to be concerned about it; primordials make perfect sense in the context of Dark Sun.




Very true.  Especially given the elemental clerics, their powers have to come from somewhere


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 30, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> anti-everything-that-is-new people




See...I don't see where that comes from :\

I had no problems with 4e Eberron, I love Star Wars SAGA which I think is pretty dang new, and hell, several people I know criticize me for not hating 3.5 ;p.

Just 'cause I dislike stuff in 4e doesn't make me a grognard, yo


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## kenmarable (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Yes there are some 4e fans that were also Dark Sun fans.  I'm not saying you don't exist.  I'm saying you're rare - VERY rare - to the point of being potentially statistically insignificant (NOT SAYING THAT AS AN INSULT).



Do you have a citation for that fact?

Along with many others who have posted in this thread, I count myself among this "VERY rare" group. But I also don't claim any statistical knowledge of how common we are or are not. (For WotC's sake, I hope it's not a statistically insignificant group.)

When I first started getting familiar with the 4e rules, my first thought was that it would be an awesome fit for Dark Sun, and am personally extremely excited for 4e Dark Sun. It'll be great to breathe some new life in that setting and hopefully get a group interested in it since I haven't played in a Dark Sun campaign in... a very long time.


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## Jack99 (Sep 30, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> @ProfessorChirno: I'm a big fan of the 2E Darksun setting (probably the best campaign I ever DMed) and I like 4E - Gee, what a rare animal I must be



I guess we can be rare together...


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## Blastin (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm in the rare breed too I guess. Maybe we should form a guild


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## Phaezen (Sep 30, 2009)

I don't think us 4e & Dark Sun lovers are as rare as we think we are.


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## Mistwell (Sep 30, 2009)

Dausuul said:


> No, I mean the original announcement of Dark Sun as the 2010 setting.
> 
> 
> 
> It's old news. Been out for a month and a half. Personally, I see no reason to be concerned about it; primordials make perfect sense in the context of Dark Sun.




The full quote, for reference:



> The gods of the setting are absent or dead, replaced by elemental spirits tied to the ancient primordials. Shamans and other primal characters draw on the forces of sun, sand, wind, and precious rain. Wizards practice their magic in secret or openly serve the sorcerer-kings. And psionic power is more common than on other worlds




I am also a Dark Sun lover and a 4e lover.  In fact I just finished reading the original Dark Sun boxed set last week.


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## davethegame (Sep 30, 2009)

Blastin said:


> I'm in the rare breed too I guess. Maybe we should form a guild




Almost my entire gaming group is in that group, so I'm pretty lucky 

My friend Danny died in every single adventure of our first Dark Sun campaign (2e), and it was decently long running. He's jazzed about playing a Thri-Kreen monk in 4e, despite the warning that he may not be playing it for very long.


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## Nifft (Sep 30, 2009)

davethegame said:


> Almost my entire gaming group is in that group, so I'm pretty lucky



 Don't think it's luck, bro. My group is similar.

Rather, I think the idea that 4e fans aren't Dark Sun fans is ... misguided.

Cheers, -- N


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## Wik (Sep 30, 2009)

Okay, I'm a bit confused.  Where's this "no easy healing" thing coming from?  All the priestly classes in the original set got minor access to the cosmos, meaning they got access to the necessary healing spells.  Even Templars!

(We made some changes to the rules, so that Clerics would get more than one or two spell choices for 4th level spells or better... high level clerics in Dark Sun were kind of boring).  

I can deal with Dragonborn in Dark Sun.  Tieflings will be barred from play, if they're presented as a race in the book - it's just that simple.  What I'm more concerned about is psionics... the PHB 3 is coming out along with the setting, so I'm sure they'll mutually support one another (which is cool).  But I really don't want to see Dark Sun become a totally matrix-like psionics playground, with psionics filling the void magic produces in other game worlds.

I really didn't like the later addtions to Dark Sun, where there were Psionically-charged flying elemental ships, Psionic Prisons, and psionic means of long-distance communication.

Conversely, I hope they don't completely ignore psionics in Dark Sun (not likely, but still).  I'd love to see random Psionic Wild talents, but I realize that's a pipe dream at this point.  

The other big thing I'm worrying about is the resource model of Dark Sun.  4e is very much a gamist perspective on things, where treasure parcels are synced up to fit with equivalent-level magic items.  Dark Sun, in my mind, has always been a game about scavenging for resources, where PCs are rewarded small treasures that prevent them from becoming rather rich.  There are no magic item stores in Dark Sun (or, rather, they're small scale and illegal).  I'd be a bit bummed if 4e Dark Sun was a game where PCs could buy and sell magic items, and by 6th or 7th level had every item slot filled with a magic item of some sort.  

But that's not really the point of this thread.  It's more about the posted teasers (it is, isn't it?  Because no one seems to be talking about that).

I have no problem with minor changes to the map... in fact, I wouldn't notice small changes like that.  I wouldn't mind seeing, for example, a changed scale for the Tyr region, or larger city populations (not too much larger, mind).  Likewise, primordials don't bother me too much, because they do sort of fit with the campaign's original premise.


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## jensun (Sep 30, 2009)

Allow me to add myself to the "very rare" category.

What I find puzzling is the objection to the idea of primordial or elemental powers in the setting since, if my aged brain recalls correctly, Clerics were elementally focused from the very beginning (Templars excepted).  

You might almost think people were looking for reasons to hate something which isn't even out for nearly a year.


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## Nellisir (Sep 30, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Not to muddy the waters more, but I use Firefox and it was light grey to me :\



Ditto.


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## drothgery (Sep 30, 2009)

Phaezen said:


> I don't think us 4e & Dark Sun lovers are as rare as we think we are.




I'm 4e lover and a Dark Sun liker. You can only love one setting, and for me it's the one with trains, airships, robots and dinosaurs .


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 30, 2009)

drothgery said:


> You can only love one setting...




Pshaw! It's all in how you were raised, and what's acceptable in your community.


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## CubeKnight (Oct 1, 2009)

FWIW, WinXP here: FF 3.5, Chrome & IE8 = Black on white.


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## Andor (Oct 1, 2009)

I see no cause for fear and panic yet. Although I am forced to wonder why he's sweating realism in a 4e setting, given that 4e is one of the least simulationist games ever made. 

My 2 cents...

Text was grey on white. Annoying.

Dark sun good.

4e meh.

Teiflings in Darksun - I fail to see the problem.

Dragonborn in Darksun - likewise.

Gnomes in Darksun - Halfling chow.

Eladrin in Darksun - Varient elves. No big deal.

Golaiths - 1/2 giant reskin maybe?

Deva - No.

Shifters - I don't see it.

Primordials - These differ from the elemental lords how exactly?


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## Riley (Oct 1, 2009)

FWIW, I'm 'very rare,' too.


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## Betote (Oct 1, 2009)

I find it kind of funny that, when 4e came out and there were a lot of rumors about which would be the 2010 setting, pretty much everyone agreed on Dark Sun, because it was thought "the definite 4e setting". Have things changed so much in this years that the "ideal" setting for 4e is now completely opposite to what 4e means?

Myself, I'm looking forward to the Dark Sun Campaign Guide, to use it in my Pathfinder games


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## Betote (Oct 1, 2009)

BTW, Firefox at a kubuntu desktop, gray text on white background.


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## Dannager (Oct 1, 2009)

Betote said:


> I find it kind of funny that, when 4e came out and there were a lot of rumors about which would be the 2010 setting, pretty much everyone agreed on Dark Sun, because it was thought "the definite 4e setting". Have things changed so much in this years that the "ideal" setting for 4e is now completely opposite to what 4e means?



Nope.  Dark Sun is great for 4e.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 1, 2009)

1) I'm a HUGE Dark Sun fan, that and Spelljammer are my faves, followed (in no set order) by Ravenloft, Undermountain, 1st boxed set Realms and Planescape as my fave settings.
I've been making art about Dark Sun for about 8 years now, fyi. (though my early efforts were poo, hehe)
So, I am NOT a "Johnny Come Lately" to Dark Sun. I've been playing Dark Sun adventures since it was released, I even ran an Athasian campaign online for several years.

2) I _love _4th ed. I've played since 1st ed, but I love 4th ed, anyone who doesn't like that choice may have forgotten that D&D is supposed to be about fun, not bitterly clinging to nostalgia.
If you genuinely love 1st, 2nd or 3rd ed because it's more fun for you, good luck to you, enjoy!  But many folk cling to the prior editions out of, as said, badly thought out nostalgia. You can never ever "go back", I adored 1st ed, but I was a teenager, it was new etc.
I don't mean to start an edition war, but, when comparing the old Dark Sun, to new release, please understand that kind of thing  People, gamers too, often view things through rose coloured glasses...

Original Dark Sun was marred by the messed up psionic system, remember.

the early 1st ed AD&D adventures were HORRENDOUSLY badly set out, for example: tight blocks of text etc, ugh!! That wasn't the fault of Mr Gygax etc, it was all new, you don't make things perfect with your 1st effort, it's been a long learning curve. Things do improve over time!
Example: Dark SUn added in the flip book adventure style, which was a real break through! it wasn't perfect btu was miles ahead of the previous ideas on presenting adventuresin an easy to use format.

I was upset with 4th ed Realms because of a lot of reasons, but nostalgia wasn't it.
I have always preffered the very first Realms boxed set because it made the Realms a more wild, interesting, barbaric, _unexplored _world. I loathed how it became so over popullated, over mapped, over detailed etc and made it a place I didn't want to DM about  I liked the _Forgotten _Realms, not the _Elminsterized _Realms
*hides behind an oak table* hehe

4th ed kind of tried for that more wild feel, but blew it in lacking the gorgeous interior art, stylistics to evoke the feel of a world, huge font/spacing so less bang for the buck, lack of a coherence, screwing spellcasters yet again etc etc. 
It felt "cheap", alas :/
Rich Baker's "Swordmage" books so far have evoked a 4th ed Realms that is damned good, much better than the campaign guide.

So I hope WOTC have learned from that debacle' and from what's been said, they realize this. the Eberron guide seemed better, anyways.

the 4th ed Dark Sun Guide should have very strong interior artwork borders etc, sounds silly but the old settings *WERE* helped by the simple drama of colour schemes, fonts, border artwork etc, please note how Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Planescape and Dark Sun each had very evocative interior design that was CONSISTANT.
It helped give me a real "feel" of the consistancy and feel of the setting. WOTC damn well needs to get back into that verve.

So if it was me, I'd use the Papyrus font, have orange gradient borders, obsidian weapons, gems, belgoi bells etc on page corners and so forth.

3) I don't give a damn what races they put in Dark Sun 4th ed, provided they "feel" Dark Sun-plausible, because it always WAS a place of mysteries and mutants, so _anything _may be out there! 
People moan about dragonborn, when giant bugs are a standard player race, eh?!
Go back, read up and you'll find mutations and weird things coming from the desert were commonplace in Athas!

4) I HATE HATE BLLOODY WELL HATE the "official" history, and so have the majority of gamers I've talked to about Dark Sun. 
I can nerdrage, too! 
So, cutting the craptastic mess of Athas' enforced history will please me enormously. If a DM wants Athas ruled by a flying two-headed learnen giant mutant space hamster, fine by me!! it's _their _campaign 

We, as DMs do not need histories laid out for us in _every _campaign setting, it's BAD. Please let us have more freedom to imagine, and Athas sure as heck fits into the idea of a mysterious world you are better NOT knowing the distant history of.
Knowing everything does NOT make things better, see the Realms problems.

For my version of Athas, I go for an ancient apocalypse caused by the illithids who tried to darken the Sun, screwed up, sun went Nova, gods stopped it but got ganked/banished in the backlash. And Athas is _millions _of years old..._perhaps_, because no one knows except the sorceror-kings, and they sure as hell aren't saying! 

I also love mystery and see Athas like Clark Ashton Smith and Robert E Howard may have written it: strange, barbaric, but sophisticated in ways/places and down right blasted dangerous.


5) Geography
See the original Dark SUn map? GOOD! fair sized area but small chunk of the world. for a barbaric mysterious world like Athas adding in a whole world map, see boxed set #2 for Athas, is a self defeating waste of paper.
Let players and DMs make things up, "Here be dragons" and lo ! there is! 
If the designers want to fix inconsistancies, fine by me  I just do not wanna see a majority of Athas mapped.
I loved the map of Tyr though, great starting city a DM beginner can work from.

The essence of Dark Sun is oppression, savagery, abusive magic, lack of metals, slavery, gladiatorial combats, arenas, psionics, survival, horrendous heat, death by thirst, tyrannical rule by sorceror kings.
Dark Sun adventures are about survival, _slaughtering _your enemies and if you manage to act with morals or honour then you really ARE a hero because you've achieved something difficult indeed.

Sorry if that was a little heated, but the way Dark Sun was screwed up all those years ago: history, novels forcing metaplot, etc etc, bugged the hell out of me and I dont' want to see it again. :/


*boils up with passion for Athasian fun!* damn it, in middle of Spelljammer piccy or I'd do another Dark Sun one, hehe

Andor
well, devas could be the Villichi? (female reincarnated/fey humans..and by fey I mean the English language useage of the word, not D&D creature type)


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## Betote (Oct 1, 2009)

Another thing I'm curious about: what did you people think about the 3.5 version of Dark Sun which was published in Dragon and Dungeon (Paizo era)?


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## keterys (Oct 1, 2009)

Loved Dark Sun.
Love 4E.
Black Text.
Tieflings ok. 
Dragonborn=Dray ok.

I think it may be worth noting that I didn't end up liking Dark Sun because of its ample use of 2nd edition rules - I actually think those harmed the setting, and tried running Dark Sun in 2E, 2.5E, and 3E. I liked the attitude, the ambiance, the differences.

I think 4E will be, by far, the best fit for the setting. I'm already mentally preparing some set piece gladiator battles and dreaming up showdowns with defilers whose destruction in casting against them spurs awful sand beasties to emerge and try to eat the players the next round...

I'm also hoping they take the opportunity to put in some better rules for dealing with lack of magic items. 

But I'll be patient, wait to see how things go.


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## Herschel (Oct 1, 2009)

PurpleXVI said:


> Ah, but you can't have that, because Dark Sun has no outsiders. Permanent. It has no Baatezu, no Devas. At most it has some sort of Genies since they are more Elemental creatures than Outer Planar, but they do not produce Tieflings and in fact I'm not sure they can even crossbreed with humans.
> 
> And if you still have Gnomes and so on, what the hell's the point of the Cleansing Wars? If the Cleansing Wars just cut down population numbers a bit and maybe mauled some races no one was ever going to play anyway, what's the point? Then you might as well excise that MAJOR DAMN POINT from the setting entirely.





The other races weren't eradicated, they were just exiled with very few surviving members in to remote places and in hiding. That was one of the things "Discovered" in the setting.


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## deadsmurf (Oct 1, 2009)

Herschel said:


> The other races weren't eradicated, they were just exiled with very few surviving members in to remote places and in hiding. That was one of the things "Discovered" in the setting.




I want xenophobic and paranoid gnomes driven underground in the cleansing war please!


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## Dice4Hire (Oct 1, 2009)

Betote said:


> Another thing I'm curious about: what did you people think about the 3.5 version of Dark Sun which was published in Dragon and Dungeon (Paizo era)?




A few art8icles do not a seting make. I ignored it in 3.5, as I wanted a full bore effort into it.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Oct 1, 2009)

AllisterH said:


> ??????
> 
> What am I missing here?




You are not missing anything except for Cirno trolling yet another 4E thread.

Cirno: You don't like 4E, we understood that months ago. Go play AD&D Dark Sun if that's what you want to do. Nothing prevents you from doing that.

___

Back to topic.

First of All. Races:

I can perfectly see Dragonborn, Genasi, Goliaths and Tieflings in Dark Sun.

I can more or less see Gnomes, Shifters and Half-orcs (renamed to something else) in Dark Sun with some minor modifications

I have some problems with Devas, Drow, Eladrins and some of the funky D&Di options (Revenant, Warforged, etc). I might disallow them in my game.

Regarding classes, if I were to play a Dark Sun 4E campaign today (without seeing the new stuff made by the more-talented-than-me WotC people), I would do the following:

1. No Divine power source. This means no Avengers, Clerics, Invokers, or Paladins. (I would have to reread the original box set to see how I would come up with the Templar class)

2. No PC Defilers (I didn't allow them back then, why start now?). All PC arcane classes are preservers. Warlocks with extraplanar pacts need to be reskinned or banned.

3.- All classes have an "Athas Awesomeness Bonus" to AC as long as they don't wear armor. This is +0 for controllers, +2 for strikers, +6 for leaders and +8 for defenders.

Defilers and Templars would be, at least until someone comes up with a better idea, NPCs only, and made with the Monster Generator

I'm sure others here have some other ideas to improve here... What do you think?


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## Obryn (Oct 1, 2009)

Betote said:


> Another thing I'm curious about: what did you people think about the 3.5 version of Dark Sun which was published in Dragon and Dungeon (Paizo era)?



It wasn't even a blip on my radar, frankly.  I checked out the articles, and they were sparse, at best.  I didn't get the sense that it was in any way close to a complete setting.

I paid a lot more attention to Athas.org, although I never actually ran 3e Dark Sun.  Those guys put a lot of love into their work, and it shows.

-O


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## ProfessorCirno (Oct 1, 2009)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> You are not missing anything except for Cirno trolling yet another 4E thread.
> 
> Cirno: You don't like 4E, we understood that months ago. Go play AD&D Dark Sun if that's what you want to do. Nothing prevents you from doing that.




Mmm.  Allow me to state why I - and, I assume, the others who agree with me - find the idea of a drastically changed Dark Sun to be so distasteful.

It's not because of the "purity of the setting."  It's because of what becomes the new baseline.  If I talk about Dark Sun, others around me will not think about the old version, they will think of the 4e version - with all the changes that come with it.  It's the same tiefling problem.  When I talk about tieflings in god knows what has to be the nerdiest conversations imaginable, and start talking about outsiders, I get blank looks.  A while back, there was a thread where someone mentioned that Paizo was having difficulties finding an artist to draw a tiefling, as all the ones that responded did 4e styled ones.

That's why I'm so..."displeased" with the idea of a drastically changed Dark Sun.  Because, quite frankly, _yes.  A new Dark Sun would prevent me from potentially playing an old one_.

Also, for the record, I don't hate 4e, and I certainly don't hate everything attached to it.  4e Eberron was rather nice.  I've heard a lot of good things about DMG2.  Just 'cause it ain't the edition for me doesn't mean I despise it.


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## ProfessorCirno (Oct 1, 2009)

Betote said:


> Another thing I'm curious about: what did you people think about the 3.5 version of Dark Sun which was published in Dragon and Dungeon (Paizo era)?




Never even saw it.

I've looked over the Athas.org version, and while it looks well made, I think the older editions were really better at portraying the setting.


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## Obryn (Oct 1, 2009)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> I have some problems with Devas, Drow, Eladrins and some of the funky D&Di options (Revenant, Warforged, etc). I might disallow them in my game.



Devas I wouldn't forbid, but I'd discourage.  Shifters could be around somewhere else on Athas, so I'm okay with them.

I have to disagree with you on Warforged, though.  Athasian Warforged would freaking _rock._ 



> 1. No Divine power source. This means no Avengers, Clerics, Invokers, or Paladins. (I would have to reread the original box set to see how I would come up with the Templar class)



Quick & Dirty cleric:  Pick an element to worship.  Instead of Radiant damage, you deal [Element] Damage.  Your powers still burn the crap out of undead.  Go forth and burn/drown/suffocate/bury stuff.  Add a Channel Divinity feat for your element to summon it, and take it instead of ... whatever clerics get other than Turn Undead.

I am otherwise waiting to see what they do with the divine classes...  I'd be fine with a "There are few, if any divine classes.  Your character might be the only one" type deal, if necessary.

-O


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## Wik (Oct 1, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Mmm.  Allow me to state why I - and, I assume, the others who agree with me - find the idea of a drastically changed Dark Sun to be so distasteful.
> 
> It's not because of the "purity of the setting."  It's because of what becomes the new baseline.  If I talk about Dark Sun, others around me will not think about the old version, they will think of the 4e version - with all the changes that come with it.  It's the same tiefling problem.  When I talk about tieflings in god knows what has to be the nerdiest conversations imaginable, and start talking about outsiders, I get blank looks.  A while back, there was a thread where someone mentioned that Paizo was having difficulties finding an artist to draw a tiefling, as all the ones that responded did 4e styled ones.
> 
> That's why I'm so..."displeased" with the idea of a drastically changed Dark Sun.  Because, quite frankly, _yes.  A new Dark Sun would prevent me from potentially playing an old one_.




I'm sorry, but that argument is a bit flawed.  Minor changes to the setting do not really change anything that's come before, or will come later.  Just because there (may) be Tieflings in 4e DS, doesn't mean that when you get together to play 2e Dark Sun, they're going to be there because the DM happened to play 4e DS first and feels they should be there.  Or, if 5e DS comes out, that they'll necessarily be there.  

So long as the fundamentals of the setting remain (it's a desert, it's bleak, defiling exists, there are no gods, there are few planes, city-states, bugs and reptile monsters instead of mammals, etc...), it will be roughly the same experience.

Or, to put it another way, the revised Dark Sun setting made a hell of a lot more changes to original Dark Sun than the 4e Dark Sun will be making to the same original base line.  The revised setting put in a greening process, killed off a lot of sorcerer kings (and made many more city-states basically barred from play), added races, and more.  Does that mean that when people only play the revised setting, that they cannot play original Dark Sun?  Does it mean that you are unable to run an Original Dark Sun adventure?

No, of course not.  You can, and have been able to for fifteen odd years.  If someone is only familiar with the revised Dark Sun, they can still play (and get the fundamentals you describe) - all you need to do is say "hey, you can't be an Aarokocra or Pterran, and the city-states are crazy messed up".  

Or, to flip it, if you join a guy who is running revised 2e Dark Sun, and you're used to Original boxed set, you'll still feel like you're playing Dark Sun.  Sure, Rhul-Thaun life-shaped artifacts might be a bit weird, and those piecemeal armour rules might seem odd... not to mention the new Psionics rules... but in the end, you're still going to be playing more or less the same game.

My point here is, the designers of 4e have already said they're basing things off the original boxed set.  The blog post seems to suggest they're even lifting text straight from the Wanderer's Chronicle (which I'm all for).  Even if they add in some minor tweaks like primordials, tieflings, dragonborn, small mountain ranges, justifiable silt sea, and the like, they won't be changing the setting any more than TSR did with the revised setting years ago.

Finally, you mention the 4e Eberron book was good.  I agree.  But I'm a bit confused... because the 4e Eberron book introduced more than a few changes to the setting - it added Tieflings and Dragonborn, for starters.  And didn't it change the scale of the setting?  And how Artificers work?

The point is, they made some changes to the setting to fit the new rules... and the sky didn't fall.  Hell, you liked it.

For the record, I'm not saying the 4e Designers are going to make a perfect product.  I honestly believe they're going to screw at least a few things up.  But I have faith in what they release.  Hell, even if they release a load of crap - a setting with metal weapons, non-cannibal halflings, planar Tieflings, Desert Devils, and Gods - it's going to be good.  Because it will renew interest in a setting that has otherwise been dead for over ten years now.  Meaning, even the worst possible product released will ultimately be a good thing for Dark Sun.


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## Korgoth (Oct 1, 2009)

1. Gray text on white background: eyesore.
2. Tried 4E: think it sucks rocks.
3. Like original Dark Sun box but not 2nd box or PP books.
4. Had no problem with content of Baker's post.


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## vagabundo (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm pumped by this post and hope to see more. 

I like that they are thinking about the story of Dark Sun, but I hope that they leave a lot to the DM; having a possible, plausible background for something is cool, but keep that for the campaign guide.

I want to tell my players the story of Dark Sun, I kind don't want an official one; just a rumour of a story of a legend. 

IMO the 4e setting wont overwrite the original, but could add to it.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 1, 2009)

Oh, there were Outsiders in Athas, they were just exceedingly rare: Psurlons, Githyanki, and some demons, iirc.


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## Jack99 (Oct 1, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> 1. Gray text on white background: eyesore.
> 2. Tried 4E: think it sucks rocks.
> 3. Like original Dark Sun box but not 2nd box or PP books.
> 4. Had no problem with content of Baker's post.



I so misread nr 2 and wondered how on earth you weren't banned yet.. Must go wash my mind now.


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## Danzauker (Oct 1, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> Lizards are the predominant fauna in a desert setting.  So Dragonborn don't come from dragons, they come from lizards.  Easy fix, good fit.




Let's ALL face it.

Dragonborn are. Upright. Bulky. Reptiles. Tailless. With BOOBS.

They are ALREADY a Dark Sun-ish race shoehorned in 4e implied setting, not the other way round!

Change their name, flavor a bit the appearance, and they're done. It's a world full of strange reptiles and dinosaurs. A walking humanoid one does not appear out of place.

Same for tiefling. A good reskinning and they could even be the "new giths".

Just because there were the Cleansing Wars, that does not mean there can be some surviving races (in facts, we know for sure that there are). Some can just be so rare or hidden that the PC will be the sterotypical "only good drow ranger in the realms".


P.S. count me in the "statistical ininfluent" group of fervent Dark Sun lovers from good old times that are really looking forward for the next edition.


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## UngeheuerLich (Oct 1, 2009)

I liked the old Dark sun idea... but this setting was unplayable:

1. Attributes: low level fighters with strength 24 and others with 14 strength meant a too great imbalance...

2. Psionic rules in 2nd edition sounded great but played not so well...

3. Going out in the desert means you get eaten alive by wandering monsters if the DM holds true to any assumption about the ecology

So what do i expect from 4e Dark sun:

1. Keep the flavour of Dark Sun

2. make the settings mechanics so that the heroes can actually survive this setting reasonably

3. not a DS thing but a 4e thing: make Psionics a part of the core rules which don´t add a new weird thing to every character. (The new Psion adds a new kkind of mechanic, but only relevant to the psion, balance to other characters is kept)


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## Hunter In Darkness (Oct 1, 2009)

1. The text is unreadable. 
2. From what has been side it is going the mangled rout I thought it would
3. I will morn the massacre of yet another setting to 4e alter
4. For those that are pumped about it, I hope you really do enjoy it.


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## Dice4Hire (Oct 1, 2009)

I am going to think seriously of buying it when it comes out, and am running a 3.5 version as soon as the players get their characters done......

One of my players bought all the Dark Sun stuff years ago, when it came out, and we ran a bit then, but not a lot. He is the main impetus for me doing it now

FOr the 4E version, I just do not see it being a good fit, unless some 4E assumptions are eleiminated or changed. I really hop they do change 4E a bit to the setting, as I would like to see the setting trump 4E rather than the other way around as it was with the last two settings. 

But, yes, I am looking forward to it.


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## CapnZapp (Oct 1, 2009)

Phaezen said:


> Rich Baker posted an interesting entry on his blog in the Wizards community (here)



What's up with using light gray text on white background?!?

Practically impossible to read without doing "select all"...


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## CapnZapp (Oct 1, 2009)

> Some folks would say that I really overthought this. It's a fantasy world, and the answer could be "it's magic" or "the gods willed it so." That's certainly true, and I probably could have left well enough alone... but some Dark Sun fan's going to pick up the campaign guide next year, look at the map, and he *won't* wonder why the Dragon's Bowl isn't filled with silt, like I did.



Good job - now only ten times as many DS fans will wonder why there's suddenly a mountain range where none was before?

Why the sudden concern for realism? You guys haven't bothered about verisimilitude once before in 4E, so why start now?!


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## CapnZapp (Oct 1, 2009)

> This week's update: I've finished up my rewrite of Avenger



Whoa? The Avenger's been rewritten? 

Which book will this be?


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## CapnZapp (Oct 1, 2009)

And before you say it: no, I didn't read the massive thread before posting...

Edit: Fwiw, now I have. Didn't find any answers to my questions though.


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## CapnZapp (Oct 1, 2009)

Thaumaturge said:


> Weird.  It's grey (or gray if you prefer) in IE8 or Chrome, but black in Firefox.



Light gray for me, using Firefox 3.5.3...


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## Phaezen (Oct 1, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> Whoa? The Avenger's been rewritten?
> 
> Which book will this be?




Avenger is a novel (book 3 of the Moonsea Trilogy) not the class.


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## MrMyth (Oct 1, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> Good job - now only ten times as many DS fans will wonder why there's suddenly a mountain range where none was before?
> 
> Why the sudden concern for realism? You guys haven't bothered about verisimilitude once before in 4E, so why start now?!




A few folks have posted along these lines in this thread, and I think there is a misunderstanding. 4E having a lower priority on simulationism does not mean they are going to just throw out 'concern for realism'. It means that it takes a backseat to their other priorities - when there is a conflict between what they feel makes a fun game, and what makes a realistic game, they go with what they feel is 'fun'. 

But if there is an area where there _is_ no conflict, and they feel a touch of realism will improve the game without detracting from it in any other element - as in this case - nothing about 4E is actually 'anti-realism'.


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## avin (Oct 1, 2009)

Warforged and Devas should be worked as very rare races. Fixed.


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## Andor (Oct 1, 2009)

Wik said:


> For the record, I'm not saying the 4e Designers are going to make a perfect product.  I honestly believe they're going to screw at least a few things up.  But I have faith in what they release.  Hell, even if they release a load of crap - a setting with metal weapons, non-cannibal halflings, planar Tieflings, Desert Devils, and Gods - it's going to be good.  Because it will renew interest in a setting that has otherwise been dead for over ten years now.  Meaning, even the worst possible product released will ultimately be a good thing for Dark Sun.




I gotta disagree. If they release 'Strawberry Shortcake with sunburn' it's going to suck outloud. If a new player picks up a craptacular product he doesn't get interested in the original material, he wonders why anyone bothered to reprint crap.


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## Wik (Oct 1, 2009)

Andor said:


> I gotta disagree. If they release 'Strawberry Shortcake with sunburn' it's going to suck outloud. If a new player picks up a craptacular product he doesn't get interested in the original material, he wonders why anyone bothered to reprint crap.




Well of course there are limits.  But let's say they release a really happy, heroic game in a desert, like you suggest.

Those who are old-timer Dark Sun fans know it's crap.  You and I do little more than pilfer it for monsters, and run our old Dark Sun games.

Those new guys, though, many will think "it sucks" and leave it at that.  But it doesn't stop there.  There will always be people who check things out - and that means new "recruits".  It means more people talking Dark Sun (I'm really looking forward to that - I'll be able to go online and see a bunch of new Dark Sun posts!).  It possibly means more third party support for Dark Sun (maybe they won't call it "Dark Sun", but I'm sure we'll see some "savage desert" books come out next year, just like when Eberron was released we saw more Steampunk books hit the shelves).  

Right now, Dark Sun is a dead setting.  It saw a few releases for the entire 3e era, and they weren't "true" releases that could really stoke fan interest too much.  But they still got people buying back PDFs, and talking.  

When they remade The Day The Earth Stood Still, everyone knew it was a garbage movie.  But people still talked about the original... and how many people do you think watched the awesome original, having never thought about it before?  

And let's be honest.  They're not really going to screw up Dark Sun that bad.  There will be a lot to it that is awesome.  The write up for the Mul, Thri-Kreen, and Half-Giant is going to be fine.  There will be cool new feats.  The monsters will be plentiful, and cool.  New Psionics will probably be there.  The map will be pretty.  I'm sure we'll have easy-to-use, cool defiler mechanics.  

In other words, the future is bright for Dark Sun.  (There's a joke there, but I'll let you make it).


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## Obryn (Oct 1, 2009)

Dice4Hire said:


> FOr the 4E version, I just do not see it being a good fit, unless some 4E assumptions are eleiminated or changed. I really hop they do change 4E a bit to the setting, as I would like to see the setting trump 4E rather than the other way around as it was with the last two settings.



Actually, I think that's a fair bet, given what they said at the conference.  It'll be 3 years into the game by the time Dark Sun comes out, and I think the design team has gotten progressively more experimental and more competent as books have come out.  I would not be surprised if some 4e assumptions are completely changed in DS.

Like I said, though, I wouldn't hold my breath for anything which says (for example) "You may not play a gnome."  Rather, I expect a blurb about how gnomes are exceedingly unusual &etc.

-O


----------



## OchreJelly (Oct 1, 2009)

Count me as another of the growing minority that is 4E / DS lovers (and 2E DS lover to boot).  When the guild is formed, let me know cuz I'd like to petition to join.

Going back to the blog, Rich Baker says "Some folks would say that I really overthought this."  Oh Rich, that's so nice of you to say, but really you should leave it to us fans to over-think these things.


----------



## Nellisir (Oct 1, 2009)

I don't remember the map he's referencing, but from what I -do- recall, couldn't one just assume a gradual/sloping land rise/uplift instead?  Does it really have to be HERE IS A MOUNTAINS SO THE SEA DOESN"T GO INTO THE HOLE!  ?

It seems rather...dramatic.


----------



## awesomeocalypse (Oct 1, 2009)

I've never played Dark Sun before in my life, and I couldn't possible be more excited for this to come out.


----------



## AllisterH (Oct 1, 2009)

Nellisir said:


> I don't remember the map he's referencing, but from what I -do- recall, couldn't one just assume a gradual/sloping land rise/uplift instead?  Does it really have to be HERE IS A MOUNTAINS SO THE SEA DOESN"T GO INTO THE HOLE!  ?
> 
> It seems rather...dramatic.




Actually not really.

If I'm reading it right...the issue is why the Silt from the silt sea doesn't fill up the Dragon's bowl given there's nothing in between the silt sea and the Dragon Bowl.


----------



## Rechan (Oct 1, 2009)

avin said:


> Warforged and Devas should be worked as very rare races. Fixed.



Warforged make sense, IMO.

Someone else posted the idea here, but I'll paraphrase:

Mechanical guards of Obsidian, Bone and Stone, the unstoppable hand of a Sorcerer King, one that does not need to drink, to rest, to fear the black sun and the wastes.


----------



## The Little Raven (Oct 1, 2009)

Henrix said:


> I think the elemental chaos and primordials could fit in really well in Athas.




It fits so well that when the 4e Dark Sun announcement occurred, I immediately thought "Athas could be a world in which the Dawn War was won by the Primordials instead of the Gods."


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## Ashimaar Extorris (Oct 1, 2009)

All the sorcerer-kings, being dragons, or partial dragons of Athas, and having numerous harems through their incredibly long lifespans may have inadvertantly spawned the dragonborn.

Also, templars make pacts of allegiance with these powerful beings and are granted power in exchange. Perhaps a new warlock pact?


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## Mistwell (Oct 1, 2009)

Hunter In Darkness said:


> 1. The text is unreadable.
> 2. From what has been side it is going the mangled rout I thought it would
> 3. I will morn the massacre of yet another setting to 4e alter
> 4. For those that are pumped about it, I hope you really do enjoy it.




You are assuming it is a mangled massacre, with no analysis as to why.  Could you please explain why you feel this way?


----------



## Mistwell (Oct 1, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> What's up with using light gray text on white background?!?
> 
> Practically impossible to read without doing "select all"...




Again, MOST people are seeing black text.  A minority (but enough to be meaningful) are seeing gray.  So, I am not sure what is going on, but I am nearly certain it was not intentionally gray.


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## Obryn (Oct 1, 2009)

Ashimaar Extorris said:


> All the sorcerer-kings, being dragons, or partial dragons of Athas, and having numerous harems through their incredibly long lifespans may have inadvertantly spawned the dragonborn.



Honestly, as someone above pointed out, Dark Sun has a deus ex machina already built into the setting for new races: the Pristine Tower.

-O


----------



## SSquirrel (Oct 1, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Okay, folks, here's the thing...
> *snips Ari's long, thoughtful post*




We'll have none of your reasonable logic here mister!!   I really don't understand the issue either.  Clerics worshipped no gods and instead were focused on the elements, which we will have access to via the Elemental Chaos, which also has Primordials (aka elemental lords).  Oh no, Dray might be Dragonborn!  Who cares?  

Dark Sun is being made for people who are playing 4th Edition.  There are many of us with very fond memories of DS.  When did the Cleansing Wars come about exactly?  Was that part of the Revised box set or one of the other later books?  I ask b/c I stopped picking up Dark Sun around teh time of the Revised box set b/c I thought the changes were terrible and the whole Cleansing Wars thing and Rajaat was pretty lame.  So if they remove some of that, great.  Retcon away.

The designers think they can make Dark Sun a fun and interesting place for peopel playing 4th Edition.  I never expected everything to be teh sdame and I think it's silly if anyone ever did.  We're talking 2 editions later people, D&D has changed a lot since the early 90s.  

Oh yeah, Firefox, grey text, white background, annoying to read.


EDIT: Oh yeah, and I'm all for a logical thought process being used to examine things like geography and terrain and seeing how these things happen in the real world.  Explaining the Sea of Silt was always interesting, b/c you would usually end up with one person that had some background that would have them disputing it which would lead to "look dude its magic", which gets really old.  Dragons Bowl as old supervolcano?  Awesome, that even makes some sense.  Sounds good, make it so, roll on.  Nothing major here.


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## catsclaw227 (Oct 1, 2009)

Obryn said:


> Honestly, as someone above pointed out, Dark Sun has a deus ex machina already built into the setting for new races: the Pristine Tower.



Yep.

And, what I don't understand is why there would be so much hate if WOTC added a race or two to Athas anyway.  Didn't TSR do this themselves as they revised the setting?


----------



## catsclaw227 (Oct 1, 2009)

SSquirrel said:


> The designers think they can make Dark Sun a fun and interesting place for peopel playing 4th Edition.  I never expected everything to be teh sdame and I think it's silly if anyone ever did.  We're talking 2 editions later people, D&D has changed a lot since the early 90s.
> 
> <snip browser stuff>
> 
> EDIT: Oh yeah, and I'm all for a logical thought process being used to examine things like geography and terrain and seeing how these things happen in the real world.  Explaining the Sea of Silt was always interesting, b/c you would usually end up with one person that had some background that would have them disputing it which would lead to "look dude its magic", which gets really old.  Dragons Bowl as old supervolcano?  Awesome, that even makes some sense.  Sounds good, make it so, roll on.  Nothing major here.




This. Too.


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## Pseudonym (Oct 1, 2009)

Mistwell said:


> Again, MOST people are seeing black text.  A minority (but enough to be meaningful) are seeing gray.  So, I am not sure what is going on, but I am nearly certain it was not intentionally gray.





I saw grey text on a white background, fwiw, but it wasn't difficult to read; at least not as difficult as some other posts would indicate.


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## Rechan (Oct 1, 2009)

And to repeat as above, Dark Sun is being made for 4th Edition.

If you don't like 4e, why the hell should you care?


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## SSquirrel (Oct 1, 2009)

Wik said:


> The other big thing I'm worrying about is the resource model of Dark Sun. 4e is very much a gamist perspective on things, where treasure parcels are synced up to fit with equivalent-level magic items. Dark Sun, in my mind, has always been a game about scavenging for resources, where PCs are rewarded small treasures that prevent them from becoming rather rich. There are no magic item stores in Dark Sun (or, rather, they're small scale and illegal). I'd be a bit bummed if 4e Dark Sun was a game where PCs could buy and sell magic items, and by 6th or 7th level had every item slot filled with a magic item of some sort.





The math for leveling is very clear in 4E and has been balanced very ssytematically.  The designers have even talked at length about how you could take the bonuses you would gain from items and roll them into the levels, run a game with no magic items, and see no problems.  I doubt we'll see anything as extreme as that in Dark Sun, as that would render books like Adventurer's Vault useless, but it isn't a hard thing to imagine that they might boost the progression slightly and reduce the magic item progress.  You would need less of them and, after all, those who live on Athas are tougher and hardier b/c they have to be.  This reflects that.


----------



## Wik (Oct 1, 2009)

SSquirrel said:


> The math for leveling is very clear in 4E and has been balanced very ssytematically.  The designers have even talked at length about how you could take the bonuses you would gain from items and roll them into the levels, run a game with no magic items, and see no problems.  I doubt we'll see anything as extreme as that in Dark Sun, as that would render books like Adventurer's Vault useless, but it isn't a hard thing to imagine that they might boost the progression slightly and reduce the magic item progress.  You would need less of them and, after all, those who live on Athas are tougher and hardier b/c they have to be.  This reflects that.




My honest guess is they'll use legendary training and the like (from DMG 2) to fill in the Magic Item gap.  If they do that, I'm golden.  It doesn't really bug me too much, though, because I'm going to cut out magic items for the most part in my home Dark Sun games anyway.

Just one of those things, where since I'm not using so many magical items, every page devoted to items is a page that would be of better use to me on something else.  

A minor point, though.  I can't convey just how excited I am for Dark Sun 4th edition.  Most of my group can't wait for it.


----------



## abyssaldeath (Oct 2, 2009)

I love Darksun. I don't even really know why, but I do. The only thing about 2e Darksun that I didn't like were the food and water rules. I get why the rules were there, but I always felt like they got in the way. Of course, I feel the same way about the encumbrance rules so that may have something to do with it. Hopefully 4e changes that aspect of Darksun.


----------



## Amphimir Míriel (Oct 2, 2009)

Mistwell said:


> Again, MOST people are seeing black text.  A minority (but enough to be meaningful) are seeing gray.  So, I am not sure what is going on, but I am nearly certain it was not intentionally gray.




Firefox 3.5 on Ubuntu - Grey text on white. Very hard to read

Don't think we are the minority, I think WotC needs to take a look at this.


----------



## avin (Oct 2, 2009)

abyssaldeath said:


> I love Darksun. I don't even really know why, but I do. The only thing about 2e Darksun that I didn't like were the food and water rules. I get why the rules were there, but I always felt like they got in the way. Of course, I feel the same way about the encumbrance rules so that may have something to do with it. Hopefully 4e changes that aspect of Darksun.




Hopefully not.

What's the point in playing a desert setting if no survival measures are needed? I will be disappointed if endurance and survival have no roles on DS4E.


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## MrMyth (Oct 2, 2009)

Rechan said:


> And to repeat as above, Dark Sun is being made for 4th Edition.
> 
> If you don't like 4e, why the hell should you care?




ProfessorCirno explained his reasons upthread: If there is a new Darksun, when he chats about it with his friends, they won't get his references to the original, since they will only be familiar with the new version.

Which, of course, makes absolutely no sense - if there were familiar with the old version, the release of a new one wouldn't _take their prior knowledge away_, and if they weren't familiar with the old version, then they _wouldn't know what he was talking about anyway_.

So yeah, I don't get it.


----------



## abyssaldeath (Oct 2, 2009)

avin said:


> Hopefully not.
> 
> What's the point in playing a desert setting if no survival measures are needed? I will be disappointed if endurance and survival have no roles on DS4E.




I'm not talking about getting rid of it all together. I just want the focus to be more on the adventures and less on food and water rations. I'm sure there has to be a way to give you the survival of the fittest feel without it having to be constantly in your face.


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## darjr (Oct 2, 2009)

I get either light blue text or light grey text in Ie8, Chrome, and Safari on Windows XP.

Have not tested my linux machines. Firefox 3.5 it's black text on white.

I left a comment on the blog post.


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## avin (Oct 2, 2009)

abyssaldeath said:


> I'm not talking about getting rid of it all together. I just want the focus to be more on the adventures and less on food and water rations. I'm sure there has to be a way to give you the survival of the fittest feel without it having to be constantly in your face.




Find and fight for food or water are adventures themselves, I don't want it to be removed. 

It doesn't need to be the same rules but this must be an essential part of the game, not just only fluff, people playing Arthas like some Toril backyard...

To be honest I think Dark Sun works better on GURPS than on D&D.

BTW: the link redirects me to Community's main page, not the article...


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## Obryn (Oct 2, 2009)

avin said:


> Find and fight for food or water are adventures themselves, I don't want it to be removed.



I, however, want them to be completely optional.   I would like them present, but in a sidebar, basically.

I would be great with survival stuff with tidier and more transparent mechanics, but I'd rather not micromanage food and water.  Even during my 2e Dark Sun days, we basically resorted to common sense.

-O


----------



## amysrevenge (Oct 2, 2009)

avin said:


> Find and fight for food or water are adventures themselves, I don't want it to be removed.





I think the point is that there is a wide spectrum available between neglecting survival entirely, and painstakingly accounting for every calorie and minute under the hot sun and ounce of water.  The dial doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) turned all the way to one end or the other.

From my perspective, there is a lot of room under the existing Endurance scheme to abstract away most of the details, while still requiring the occasional raid for a drink.


----------



## mudbunny (Oct 2, 2009)

MrMyth said:


> ProfessorCirno explained his reasons upthread: If there is a new Darksun, when he chats about it with his friends, they won't get his references to the original, since they will only be familiar with the new version.




That which Prof is worried about is also something that is a regular part of any type of industry/hobby/etc where there are updates to things. Cars, TVs, computers, etc. When they get upgraded to a new version, there will be some initial confusion when talking with someone else about it.


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## Nifft (Oct 2, 2009)

abyssaldeath said:


> I'm not talking about getting rid of it all together. I just want the focus to be more on the adventures and less on food and water rations. I'm sure there has to be a way to give you the survival of the fittest feel without it having to be constantly in your face.



 Earlier editions could be played (and indeed were played by some) as primarily wilderness survival games. "Clear The Hex" and whatnot. IMHO, Dark Sun's environmental focus reflected its edition, not its inherent nature.

4e is much less a wilderness survival game (though it could have elements of wilderness survival). Therefore, I suspect the new Dark Sun book will have a greater focus on the adventures.

That said, the environment in Dark Sun should present some challenges, and I look forward to some cool rules for handling the specifics of Dark Sun's environment in skill challenges.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Dire Human (Oct 2, 2009)

I have no idea why people are so pissed about this stuff. Here you go, free of charge:

Tieflings. Two words: resist fire. A roaming band of horned barbarians with sandpaper skin, walking naked and barefoot across the burning sands, sharpened teeth ideal for cutting through the only tough meat they can find: yours. The lone hunting sharks to the halfling's piranha feeding frenzy.

Dragonborn. Pathetic remnants of a mighty lizard race. Trying so hard to delude themselves of their relevance when their time has clearly come, the only thing that keeps them from being snuffed out altogether is their cognitive dissonance; when near defeat, their broken pride turns to a suicidal bloodlust that is legendary.

Deva. When one goes mad in Athas, there is so far to fall. Babbling nonsense to gods who cannot hear, telling tales of lives that have never been lived, eyes wide with sights that no one can see. If by pity or fear they are not killed, they can be easily identified by the mud and pigments they smear their faces and bodies with, claiming them to be "divine markings".

Divine characters. With no clouds for gods to hide behind, in the sky there is only the harsh, unrelenting sun. When when you fight against one blessed by the elemental spirits, nothing can shade you from the searing heat and blinding light. Whether one channels the rivers of silt, the blistering heat, the shifting sands, or the bone-dry winds, it must be remembered that the desert sun looks down over all these things, and over you.

Seriously, guys, even if my attempts at alternate flavor are off-base, 4e fits right in.


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## Danzauker (Oct 2, 2009)

Still don't see where the problem with dragongorn is.

If there's a setting where humanoid reptilian PCs would be at home, I think it's EXACTLY Dark Sun.

Heck, I'm more prone to ban dragonborn (and tieflings) characters in a typical european/medieval/human-centric world than on Athas, where every town seems like Tatooine and every party seems the Cantina Band...

By the way, I can also point to this cover:

TSR Dungeons & Dragons Archive: Dark Sun: Arcane Shadows

and say "there's how an athasian dragonborn looks like". I wondered for 15 years what race the big guy on the picture was. Now I know.


----------



## kilamanjaro (Oct 2, 2009)

Danzauker said:


> Still don't see where the problem with dragongorn is.
> 
> If there's a setting where humanoid reptilian PCs would be at home, I think it's EXACTLY Dark Sun.
> 
> ...




In the novel with the same cover he's a mutant elf.


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## vagabundo (Oct 2, 2009)

kilamanjaro said:


> In the novel with the same cover he's a mutant elf.




That is what Dragonborn are in Darksun - mutant elves...


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## kilamanjaro (Oct 2, 2009)

vagabundo said:


> That is what Dragonborn are in Darkdun - mutant elves...




Since all the races are supposed to be mutant halflings (ugh), why not?


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## Korgoth (Oct 2, 2009)

kilamanjaro said:


> Since all the races are supposed to be mutant halflings (ugh), why not?




I roll to disbelieve.

*chack*

I succeed.


----------



## Thaumaturge (Oct 2, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> I roll to disbelieve.
> 
> *chack*
> 
> I succeed.



You successfully realize it isn't an illusion.  

Thaumaturge.


----------



## Danzauker (Oct 2, 2009)

kilamanjaro said:


> In the novel with the same cover he's a mutant elf.




Ugh. I'd have preferred some more years wondering...


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 2, 2009)

A) the official history, where everyone was descened from god-like psionic hallfings..._sucked_, many folk would like to want it DIE, and 4th ed be a blank slate with no official history! 

B) As I've repeatedly said on 4th ed Dark SUn threads, there already ARE rules in 4th ed for environmental issues! go check the DMG, basically, every 8 hours in "stiffling" heat, Endurance check DC 26 or lose 1 healing surge, simple, effective and cannot be easily "Healed" away like you could with hit point damage, but itsn't too crippling for a while.
healing surges work vastly better than hit point damage for such 

C) Mutation, via Darwinism gone mad, psionics/magic and the Pristine Tower (which caused that elf to mutate) etc, all mean that Dark Sun is a world of mutation, it even specifically notes that in the original rule box, how evne Humans arne't normal any more.
So I allow almost anything, any class, because almost anything could exist, provided it "feels" right.
Pal is playing an avenger, his Human character was imbued by ancient spirits of priests who want revenge on the sorceror kings and defilers, so he's an avenger and no longer Human (he looks Human but is a Goliath in every other way)


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## darjr (Oct 2, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> A) the official history, where everyone was descened form god-like psionic hallfings...sucked, many folk would like to want it DIE, and 4th ed be a blank slate for history!




So the halflings ARE cannibals!

That is such a freaking relief. You have no idea.


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## SSquirrel (Oct 2, 2009)

avin said:


> Find and fight for food or water are adventures themselves, I don't want it to be removed.




Yes they are.  They just aren't adventures I wish to partake in. *shrug*  Different strokes.  In concept I like the idea, but in actual play it just felt like it got in the way and wasn't very fun.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 3, 2009)

Well, they don't eat _other _halflings, 'cause halflings are "real" people (to them that is), and they are _Communist _cannabilistic halflings, who use poison and psionics.
So really, they are indeed, awesome! 

_Killer Cannibal Commie Runt Poisonous Psi-muties!_ How yummy is that?


----------



## Thaumaturge (Oct 3, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> _Killer Cannibal Commie Runt Poisonous Psi-muties!_ How yummy is that?




Man.  The Computer is _not_ going to be happy.

Thaumaturge.


----------



## SSquirrel (Oct 3, 2009)

Thaumaturge said:


> Man.  The Computer is _not_ going to be happy.




I indeed doubt The Computer will be happy.  Altho the Halflings ate The Computer last week when they couldn't find any Thri-Kreen 

*BURP*


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## catsclaw227 (Oct 3, 2009)

Danzauker said:


> By the way, I can also point to this cover:
> 
> TSR Dungeons & Dragons Archive: Dark Sun: Arcane Shadows
> 
> and say "there's how an athasian dragonborn looks like". I wondered for 15 years what race the big guy on the picture was. Now I know.



Ha!

That's totally a Dark Sun Dragonborn!  (Seriously, though, what is that supposed to be, anyway?)


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Oct 3, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Ha!
> 
> That's totally a Dark Sun Dragonborn!  (Seriously, though, what is that supposed to be, anyway?)




I have no idea, but there are reptilian such as the Jozhal who are basically human-sized velicoraptors with opposable thumbs, Nikaal who I remember as being purple-scaled, and the Pterrans who are humanoid Pterodactyls.


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## tuxgeo (Oct 3, 2009)

FWIW: Rich Baker's blog post was light grey text on a white background. 
System: DELL Latitude C840, Windows XP, Firefox 3.5.3. 
(It was hard to read until I highlighted the whole thing. Seriously -- at my age, I'm lucky to be able to read text that small without glasses, even if the resolution is mediocre.)

*EDIT*: Now it's black on white! 
OK, the difference is this: with the new DnD home page, I did not have the "Remember me" box checked for the WotC DDI login; as a result, I seem to have been given the "guest" view of Rich's blog page the first time I tried to read it. Today, however, I finally logged in to WotC _before_ trying to look at the blog page; and when I tried to see it, the software demanded that I, as a DDI subscriber, must set up my profile before viewing the page. I did the setup; and when I got to Rich's blog page, it displayed as black on white. 
(I imagine that if I close my browser, open it again, re-login to WotC but uncheck the "Remember me" box as I do so, close the browser again, and then reopen it and try to get to the blog from ENWorld, it might be light grey on white again. But that sounds like a lot of work. . . .)


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## kilamanjaro (Oct 3, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Ha!
> 
> That's totally a Dark Sun Dragonborn!  (Seriously, though, what is that supposed to be, anyway?)




Seriously, it's a mutant elf.  I kid you not.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 3, 2009)

"Computer"? *puzzled*
Halfling culture in Athas is communistic.
My jest it's based on facts of the game, not politics. Athasian live in a communal way, the concept of ownership of goods, and especially of people (Slavery) is completely non-sensical to them. That and the lack of concern for others, social etiquette etc often drives them crazy when they are taken as slaves.

anyway, the character in that picture, Magnus, ventured near the Pristine Tower, now, in the official history, that tower had a LOT to do with everything that screwed up the world of Dark Sun . It has _enormous _power inside (an artifact inside it turned the Sun into what it is now, to give an idea of the power). 
Anyone who comes neart the tower, gets mutated into...something random. The mutations are often lethal, self lethal that is.

I loathe official history, but still like the Pristine Tower.
If you want I can go look up the boxed set on the bits about how every creature is mutated from the norm, even Humans, who may have say, webbed fingers, scallop shaped ears or whatever.

Taking Dark Sun as a world of mutation, you can do about anything you want, within the sensibilities of the settings.
I don't have a problem with Divine characters there. They are just very uncommon if they aren't linked to the elements or the sorceror-kings.
Spirits of ancient priests and paladins DO exist as official monsters, see monster compendium II for Dark Sun, creatures called RAAIGS.


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## AllisterH (Oct 3, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> I roll to disbelieve.
> 
> *chack*
> 
> I succeed.




Heh, don't know if you knew that but yeah, offically, everyone in DS is a mutant halfling....


----------



## Andor (Oct 3, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> "Computer"? *puzzled*




[threadjack] The Computer in Paranoia wants you to be Happy. If you are not happy you may be used as reactor shielding. The computer wants to protect you from Commie Mutant Traitors. You are not authorized to know why. Further inquiry will be taken as proof that you are a commie mutant traitor. Please report to the nearest mental health center for liquidation. Have a nice day! [/threadjack]


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 3, 2009)

Oh!! Thanks for the explanation  sorry never played Paranoia...hell, where I live, who needs more madness?


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 3, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Spirits of ancient priests and paladins DO exist as official monsters, see monster compendium II for Dark Sun, creatures called RAAIGS.




wow, I had forgotten all about those...undead tomb guardians of old gods...


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## Tervin (Oct 3, 2009)

Grey or black? When I am logged in the text is black, otherwise grey. Weird but true.

And of course I am yet another of those rare people who like 4E and have Dark Sun as a favourite D&D setting. What I really really hope is that they don't start explaining too much in this new version. When I read the contents of the first Dark Sun box what I fell in love with was, more than the edgier races and the darker feel, the fact that there were so many mysteries left. So many open ends, so many rumours and so few unnecessary facts.

I do not want a complete map of Athas. I do not want a written history. I want lots and lots of rumours and stories that nobody really knows what to make of. A world that knows that it must have an amazing history, but where it has almost all got lost. A world that is partly mapped, but where noone knows what actually exists on the other side of the silt sea or the huge mountain range.

I don't want any strict rules as to which races can exist in the world, but I want help to reimagine races so that they fit.


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## Thaumaturge (Oct 3, 2009)

Tervin said:


> Grey or black? When I am logged in the text is black, otherwise grey. Weird but true.




Yep.  That's it.  I get the same results.  Well done.

I wonder what other things are slightly different if you are/aren't logged in to the site.

In before "WotC doesn't want non-subscribers to read their site."

Thaumaturge.


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## ProfessorCirno (Oct 3, 2009)

Thaumaturge said:


> Yep.  That's it.  I get the same results.  Well done.
> 
> I wonder what other things are slightly different if you are/aren't logged in to the site.
> 
> ...




It's less suspicious then it is just plain weird.  Still vaguely suspicious, mind you ;p



Regarding Dark Sun:

Sorry if you feel I'm wrong regarding the "people not knowing about the old one."  I, well, disagree.  Yes, a lot of weird and somewhat crappy stuff started to pop up in Dark Sun, but because it was so poorly received, it never stole the thunder from the original.  The new one, I guarantee, no matter how good or bad it might turn out, will.  I feel my fear is legit.

There are, I feel, four reasons people are hanging on the every word.  You can mix and match these reasons as you choose 

1) My reason above.  New version is very different, replaces old version.  Like the old version?  You're out of luck.

2) They feel an ownership in part of the setting and don't want to see whatever degree of changes they don't want to see.  Maybe they don't want to see any changes at all.  Maybe they just don't want big changes.

3) They aren't convinced WotC can make a good setting yet.  I know a few 4e fans that think the game mechanics are the best they've ever been, but visually cringe at WotC's writing staff.

4) They hate 4e and everything associated with 4e.

_I can't wait to see which one's I'm put into...!_


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## Thaumaturge (Oct 3, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> There are, I feel, four reasons people are hanging on the every word.  You can mix and match these reasons as you choose




Where is your "They like the old Dark Sun and are excited about the new Dark Sun" option?

Thaumaturge.

I choose option 5.


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## Wik (Oct 3, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Sorry if you feel I'm wrong regarding the "people not knowing about the old one."  I, well, disagree.  Yes, a lot of weird and somewhat crappy stuff started to pop up in Dark Sun, but because it was so poorly received, it never stole the thunder from the original.  The new one, I guarantee, no matter how good or bad it might turn out, will.  I feel my fear is legit.




See, I still disagree there.  How many times, on this thread alone, have people mentioned stuff from the revised setting as part of their core assumptions of Dark Sun?  These are people that, let's face it, are pretty hardcore D&D people.  

In other words, there's been a split in which "edition" of Dark Sun people are familiar with for over a decade.  One new edition isn't going to hurt anything - in fact, it will be better for the setting, because it will get people playing Dark Sun again.

This isn't FR, which has a huge fan base.  Changing FR was a bad idea, I think (though, actually, I prefer the new FR... but I was never an FR fan, so I don't think my opinion counts).  Changes to Dark Sun should bring in new Dark Sun fans.

And they're not going to make huge, drastic changes.  They'll make minor changes, for sure.  Odds are, we'll see a few new races.  And some new locations on the map, some new monsters, and new slave tribes, etc.  

For people new to the setting, they won't know those things are "new".  And when you play Dark SUn with them, you'll probably have to sigh a bit, and simply state "that's not the way it always was".  But, I think that's a very small price to pay to suddenly have a huge influx of Dark Sun players (and Dark Sun campaigns!) to choose from.

As for me, I already have a list of changes I'll make to the rules when it comes out, because I know they won't make a game that perfectly caters to my idea of how DS should be run.  I don't mind cutting info from the books in my campaign.  

Personally, I think my big worry is that the core Dark Sun adventure will be too generic and bland, and will suck (because they want their adventures to be as usable as possible, which is a good goal for WotC).  Of course, I'll buy it anyway.


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## Doc_Klueless (Oct 3, 2009)

Thaumaturge said:


> Where is your "They like the old Dark Sun and are excited about the new Dark Sun" option?
> 
> I choose option 5.



I choose option 6: Don't know much about Dark Sun except for a very brief read through and other's comments and am excited to see a Dark Sun for 4e. Or I guess with more brevity:

Option 6: Don't know Dark Sun, think it sounds interesting and excited about a 4e Dark Sun.



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> For people new to the setting, they won't know those things are "new". And when you play Dark SUn with them, you'll probably have to sigh a bit, and simply state "that's not the way it always was". But, I think that's a very small price to pay to suddenly have a huge influx of Dark Sun players (and Dark Sun campaigns!) to choose from.



When I gamed with these people or I'm one of them, I often think "well, then. I guess there's some mystery back in the setting then." I like when there a little change ups in settings (Greyhawk to From the Ashes Greyhawk, for example. Though I think I'm one of the few on the planet!  ). It makes me pay more attention to what is going on so I can spot that stuff.


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## Nifft (Oct 3, 2009)

Tervin said:


> And of course I am yet another of those rare people who like 4E and have Dark Sun as a favourite D&D setting.



 Rare like hydrogen.



Tervin said:


> What I really really hope is that they don't start explaining too much in this new version. When I read the contents of the first Dark Sun box what I fell in love with was, more than the edgier races and the darker feel, the fact that there were so many mysteries left.



 I like your vision, and hope WotC subscribes as well.

Cheers, -- N


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## Wik (Oct 3, 2009)

Doc_Klueless said:


> I choose option 6: Don't know much about Dark Sun except for a very brief read through and other's comments and am excited to see a Dark Sun for 4e. Or I guess with more brevity:
> 
> Option 6: Don't know Dark Sun, think it sounds interesting and excited about a 4e Dark Sun.




You'll love it.  I've yet to find a player who doesn't like Dark Sun.  I think every player I've ever had will count Dark Sun among their top three campaign settings/RPGs out there.  I have several players from years ago who will not play AD&D unless it's in Dark Sun.

Suggestion, though:  Pick up the original Boxed Set PDF.  There's a lot of good stuff in there, and it will give you a point of comparison when the 4e book comes out, and the inevitable flame wars start.


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## Wik (Oct 3, 2009)

Nifft said:


> I like your vision, and hope WotC subscribes as well.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




I concur.  Of course, I'll cut out any crap I don't like, but I'd like them to avoid it, simply so they can use their page count for stuff I'll use (like adventure ideas!).

***

One thing I was thinking about, that hasn't really been touched upon so far, are Dark Sun monsters.  When I first played Dark Sun, years and years ago, I saw the list of monsters that were barred from play... and lacked the DS Monster Compendiums (I finally bought one a few months ago!).  I ended up trading my original DS boxed set because I couldn't get my hands on enough monster variety.

The point of this all is, will wotc keep that limited monster pool, or will the setting introduce a lot of "core" monsters?  Are we going to see a lot of low-level monsters in the setting book to replace the goblins, kobolds, orcs, and gnolls?  

Just something I'm curious about.


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## Thaumaturge (Oct 3, 2009)

Wik said:


> The point of this all is, will wotc keep that limited monster pool, or will the setting introduce a lot of "core" monsters?  Are we going to see a lot of low-level monsters in the setting book to replace the goblins, kobolds, orcs, and gnolls?
> 
> Just something I'm curious about.




Good point.  That is one of the things I really liked about Dark Sun, and I'd hate to lose it.  I'm guessing there will be a DDi article with more monsters.  An 'Athasian' template might help core monsters have more of a bleak and desolate feel.

Also, hopefully, MM3 will just have a large chunk of Athasian creatures.  Athasian Sloth, I'm looking at you.

Thaumaturge.


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## Bold or Stupid (Oct 3, 2009)

Wik said:


> You'll love it.  I've yet to find a player who doesn't like Dark Sun.  I think every player I've ever had will count Dark Sun among their top three campaign settings/RPGs out there.  I have several players from years ago who will not play AD&D unless it's in Dark Sun.
> 
> Suggestion, though:  Pick up the original Boxed Set PDF.  There's a lot of good stuff in there, and it will give you a point of comparison when the 4e book comes out, and the inevitable flame wars start.




Hi, I'm the guy who never liked Dark Sun, at the time it seemed nasty, over powered and full of a level of micromanagement that I never liked. It just seemed to be an attempt to cash in on the gritty WoD inspired mood in gaming at the time, complete with heavy handed political allegory (ooh ecological damage...) The world never sounded like anything I'd want to play and the oddities were mostly used as grim anecdotes (the halflings do what?) 

Now a 4e comes along and I'm interested, mostly to lift ideas from I admit, but I may like it enough to run it. I'm also now interested in looking at old DS stuff, just to see what they changed.


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## ProfessorCirno (Oct 3, 2009)

Thaumaturge said:


> Where is your "They like the old Dark Sun and are excited about the new Dark Sun" option?




That would be under the "They aren't hanging on every word and thus do not subscribe to the mentioned set of people" group 

Cirno


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## Doc_Klueless (Oct 3, 2009)

Wik said:


> You'll love it.  I've yet to find a player who doesn't like Dark Sun.  I think every player I've ever had will count Dark Sun among their top three campaign settings/RPGs out there.  I have several players from years ago who will not play AD&D unless it's in Dark Sun.
> 
> Suggestion, though:  Pick up the original Boxed Set PDF.  There's a lot of good stuff in there, and it will give you a point of comparison when the 4e book comes out, and the inevitable flame wars start.



Everything I've heard about it and read about it has seemed quite exciting. I have know doubt I'll love it, especially since one of my all time favorite books is "City of Bones" by Martha Wells.

You'd think in my 28 years of playing, I'd have played in Dark Sun. Sadly, it's always escaped my gaming grasp.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 3, 2009)

Tervin said:


> And of course I am yet another of those rare people who like 4E and have Dark Sun as a favourite D&D setting. What I really really hope is that they don't start explaining too much in this new version. When I read the contents of the first Dark Sun box what I fell in love with was, more than the edgier races and the darker feel, the fact that there were so many mysteries left. So many open ends, so many rumours and so few unnecessary facts.
> 
> _I do not want a complete map of Athas. I do not want a written history. I want lots and lots of rumours and stories that nobody really knows what to make of. A world that knows that it must have an amazing history, but where it has almost all got lost. A world that is partly mapped, but where noone knows what actually exists on the other side of the silt sea or the huge mountain range._
> 
> *I don't want any strict rules as to which races can exist in the world, but I want help to reimagine races so that they fit*.




G_IVE THAT MAN/WOMAN/MUTANT A BEER! _Woot! 

exactly, please pelase WOTC, if you read this, keep Dark Sun mysterious, because players need fear, the unknown, to make games more "juicy".
That is what killed Forgotten Realms for me and others, that it was so detailed to death it wasn't "scary" :/ 
love the original Realms boxed set, andUndermountain, but, ugh "Elminsterized to death, after that, sigh


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## Kobold Avenger (Oct 3, 2009)

On mine, Vista with FF 3.5.3 it's black text, according to Firebug it inherited it's colour from the definition of body with the id of blog_user_blog as defined by toolbar.css


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## Danzauker (Oct 4, 2009)

Wik said:


> Suggestion, though:  Pick up the original Boxed Set PDF.  There's a lot of good stuff in there, and it will give you a point of comparison when the 4e book comes out, and the inevitable flame wars start.




Why?

Or better, why, unless he is already curious enough to do it just for the pleasure to read a 2ed classic setting anyway?

If he's moderately curious, he could just wait until release, read the previews and articles and judge the 4e Dark Sun setting _per se_ without having necessarily to compare with the old version, unless, again, he really wants to, maybe just in order to snatch some more ideas.

I think one can leave edition wars behind, for a change...


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## Doc_Klueless (Oct 4, 2009)

Danzauker said:


> Why?...
> ...I think one can leave edition wars behind, for a change...



I've read the 1e box set when it first hit the shelves (hey, I was a sergeant in the army with little else to spend my money on! ). So I'm not so keen to pick up the old stuff. I *am* excited hearing about all the _new_ stuff, though.


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## Obryn (Oct 4, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Sorry if you feel I'm wrong regarding the "people not knowing about the old one."  I, well, disagree.



I guess if actual evidence from real, live fans of both 4e and Dark Sun won't convince you, nothing will.  Your "rare group" is growing huge - just on ENWorld!



> Yes, a lot of weird and somewhat crappy stuff started to pop up in Dark Sun, but because it was so poorly received, it never stole the thunder from the original.  The new one, I guarantee, no matter how good or bad it might turn out, will.  I feel my fear is legit.



The absolute worst-case possibility as far as I can see is that I won't like the new fluff, so I'll just steal the crunch for a Dark Sun game set in the original setting.

I mean, what is there for me to worry about if they change the setting a lot?  What do I lose?  Please explain it to me, because I can't see a single damn thing.



> 1) My reason above.  New version is very different, replaces old version.  Like the old version?  You're out of luck.



...or you play your original box set, which works just fine and hasn't exploded.  Or you steal the crunch from the 4e set.  Seriously, in what way would I be out of luck?



> 2) They feel an ownership in part of the setting and don't want to see whatever degree of changes they don't want to see.  Maybe they don't want to see any changes at all.  Maybe they just don't want big changes.



To quote Neil Gaiman, WotC isn't my bitch.  I have absolutely zero I can lose from a new setting.  Even if it's one I don't like, I will just not-like it.  It's a situation where I can only potentially gain something cool, since I can never lose anything I already have.



> 3) They aren't convinced WotC can make a good setting yet.  I know a few 4e fans that think the game mechanics are the best they've ever been, but visually cringe at WotC's writing staff.



See above.



> 4) They hate 4e and everything associated with 4e.



Then I honestly don't know why they're stressing out about a book that they won't ever buy, anyway.  I'm utterly perplexed as to why the existence or non-existence of 4e Dark Sun has any more relevance than the existence or non-existence of the 2e Revised Box Set.

-O


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## Henry (Oct 4, 2009)

I gotta say I'm a _"Loved the first boxed set, hated the second, am liking what I hear about 4E Dark Sun still"_ guy. So far, the fact that they are trying to keep it relatively logical is find with me. I'd rather not have a "gods willed it so" answer in a setting where the gods are definitively dead.  So far, so good.


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## Andor (Oct 4, 2009)

Henry said:


> I gotta say I'm a _"Loved the first boxed set, hated the second, am liking what I hear about 4E Dark Sun still"_ guy. So far, the fact that they are trying to keep it relatively logical is find with me. I'd rather not have a "gods willed it so" answer in a setting where the gods are definitively dead.  So far, so good.




Exactly! "The primordials willed it." makes much more sense. 

... I still see no need to panic. Just wrap your original DS boxed set in pink plastic. Everybody knows WotC game enforcement ninjas can't perceive pink.


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## SSquirrel (Oct 4, 2009)

Bold or Stupid said:


> Hi, I'm the guy who never liked Dark Sun, at the time it seemed nasty, over powered and full of a level of micromanagement that I never liked. It just seemed to be an attempt to cash in on the gritty WoD inspired mood in gaming at the time, complete with heavy handed political allegory (ooh ecological damage...)




I always figured Dark Sun started as a tangent of some designers talking about Dying Earth or Dune or some such.  I didn't see the ecological damage as a deeply political angle, I saw it as they started with a premise about the world being a desert and everything is so shattered, with magic as the cause.  What if magic pulled its power from the planet itself and mages were responsible for the way things are.  Then you end up naturally having some who try and avoid that and those who don't care.  It all seemed to fit together pretty nicely really.

I'm not sure gritty is ever the word I thought of to describe WoD, and I played it an awful lot.  The real world done darker and more F'ed up, more corrupt, etc.  I suppose that might be grittier, but I guess I think of gritty as more along the lines of "Your wound was unbandaged, it has begun to fester, fever reduces all stats by 3 the first day" or "The runt orc soldier with the halbard braces for charge and rolls (rollrollrollrollroll) 472, which is a class E crit, looks like you were impaled thru the heart, look of shock frozen on your face, dead in 2 rounds.  Sorry dude, gimme that sheet".  [Spot the Rolemaster]

Ken Hood's Grim and Gritty rules were an interesting spin on 3E, but they were also rather complex and tried to cover so many rules sections.  The Revised rules were perfect, combat was nasty and quick and you could easily die if you were not prepared and watchful.  I never had the same feelings in a WoD game as I did with Ken's rules.  Just another example.



Bold or Stupid said:


> The world never sounded like anything I'd want to play and the oddities were mostly used as grim anecdotes (the halflings do what?)




Dark Sun cannibal halflings may have had some influence on the first halfling rogue I made in 3E.  He was NE and had a bit of a bloodlust.  He killed an ogre in the dark with one blow (someone else in the group had already shot it, he swung a good swing and killed it, but couldn't see in the dark and was convinced he was amazing b/c of it) then ended up with some fresh cut ogre tusks and more than a lil blood on himself.  He was a fun one.

I'm also one of the loved the original box, hated the 2nd like Henry.  Basically up thru Dragon Kings (ignoring the events of the Prism Pentad) and I think the Valley of Dust and Fire came out around then.  I remember really loving that book.  Happy about the fact that 4E is having Dark Sun as its next game world, reading the preview books and the way they were talking about the internal game world, I thought it sounded like Dark Sun in many ways.  "Hmm you only have control very near the cities, people don't trust people from far off, sometimes not even down the street

4E, Arcana Evolved and Ken Hood's Grim & Gritty Revised are the 3 versions of D&D related game system I would prefer to play, if I'm going to play D&D.  No New World of Darkness (except Changeling) only Old, and even then not Werewolf heh.  Various other systems are fair game too.

EDIT:Added a few things right after I posted the original version.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Oct 4, 2009)

SSquirrel said:


> I always figured Dark Sun started as a tangent of some designers talking about Dying Earth or Dune or some such.



The truth is closer to the designers saw some of Brom's art hanging on the wall while he worked for TSR while they were coming up with ideas on how to do a D&D homage to ERB's world of Barsoom--of his John Carter of Mars series--and went from there. Seriously.

Many Athasian things first appeared in some Brom art the designers fell in love with so much they found a place for it in the setting. The desert aesthetic is both in Brom's art and in Barsoom. Barsoom also has the "oceans disappeared leaving deserts, multi-limbed desert tribe warriors, mental telepathy, world is slowly withering away" thing going.

Read "_A Princess of Mars_", it was published in 1917, so it is public domain and should be in Project Gutenburg. I think it is worth owning regardless. Then compare with Dark Sun. If you find the similarities eerie, well you should.


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## catsclaw227 (Oct 4, 2009)

So, so you think that someone somewhere, outside the hobby, will write some socio-political blog entry or something about how Dark Sun is a veiled political message about environmental irresponsibility?

[ooops....  was this too tangential and/or in violation of the no politics rule?]


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## Amphimir Míriel (Oct 4, 2009)

ProfessorCirno said:


> That would be under the "They aren't hanging on every word and thus do not subscribe to the mentioned set of people" group
> 
> Cirno




Why don't you accept that there are way more people who are excited and happy about the possibility of a 4E Dark Sun than those who dread the idea?

You are in the minority here, Cassandra


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## Amphimir Míriel (Oct 4, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> So, so you think that someone somewhere, outside the hobby, will write some socio-political blog entry or something about how Dark Sun is a veiled political message about environmental irresponsibility?
> 
> [ooops....  was this too tangential and/or in violation of the no politics rule?]




I am perfectly willing to believe that TSR did not write Dark Sun as a "veiled political message about environmental irresponsibility", but even if they did, I would file this under: "anvils that needed to be dropped"


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## ProfessorCirno (Oct 4, 2009)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> Why don't you accept that there are way more people who are excited and happy about the possibility of a 4E Dark Sun than those who dread the idea?
> 
> You are in the minority here, Cassandra




Ok, I accept that, at least on this thread, I am VERY clearly in the minority. 

...Doesn't change the fact that people like me who are hanging on every word most likely fit into one or more of those four catagories, and people who are not hanging on every word and are simply eagerly looking forward to 4e Dark Sun aren't in the group to begin with


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## Alphastream (Oct 5, 2009)

To try to keep this thread on the topic of DS teasers (belive it or not, the thread is not actually about WotC forum screen appearance ...

Twitter from the Dark Sun playtests says a player was bloodied by defiling magic!

_"Hah! I just got bloodied by an ally's defiling magic. Potentially the first time that has happened in official 4th Edition."_


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## SSquirrel (Oct 5, 2009)

Interesting.  Defiling only sucked away at the environment in 2E and people in my group always wondered why you never hurt the people around you while you turned so much ground to ash.  I wonder if this is life loss to nearby people from defiling and if so how much.  I assume it is in addition to anything your casting does to the land around you.  Or maybe you can choose to injure the people around you instead of the land.

"Yes my minions are easily replaced, I can sacrifice them in this already blasted land and still power my spells"

Different but interesting and another case of solving something that was a common question from people I would introduce Dark Sun to.


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## The Little Raven (Oct 5, 2009)

How does one steal the thunder from something that has been dead for 13 years?


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## Nifft (Oct 5, 2009)

The Little Raven said:


> How does one steal the thunder from something that has been dead for 13 years?



 - Seek through the Underworld
- Wyld Shaping Technique

Cheers, -- N


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## Henrix (Oct 5, 2009)

Bold or Stupid said:


> It just seemed to be an attempt to cash in on the gritty WoD inspired mood in gaming at the time, complete with heavy handed political allegory (ooh ecological damage...)




A bit tricky to do that, as WoD was out the same year. I don't remember the months they came out, but both are -91 products. Maybe they grew out of the same sentiments - but WoD had no time to inspire it.


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## Rechan (Oct 5, 2009)

Nifft said:


> - Seek through the Underworld
> - Wyld Shaping Technique
> 
> Cheers, -- N



I love you, man.


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## Bold or Stupid (Oct 5, 2009)

Henrix said:


> A bit tricky to do that, as WoD was out the same year. I don't remember the months they came out, but both are -91 products. Maybe they grew out of the same sentiments - but WoD had no time to inspire it.




I was talking about my impressions at the time, I suspect they both were feeding off the dark edge running through geek culture post Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen.


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## Wik (Oct 5, 2009)

Dark Sun had its genesis in a blurb given to the designers - make something that utilizes the BATTLESYSTEM rules, and implements the Psionics handbook as core.

That was it. 

The designers started tryign to turn standard fantasy stuff on its head, because they didn't want to release another Faerun or Krynn - which seemed to be a pretty standard sentiment at TSR at the time, because we saw settings like Al-Qadim and Planescape released at roughly the same time.

When they got Brom on their staff, they started using his art as inspiration.

Also, remember that Dark Sun was designed during the fall of the U.S.S.R.  and the Cold War was foremost on everyone's minds (what if the Soviets release their missiles, knowing they have nothing to lose?).  All of the designers grew up in a time where the threat of nuclear fallout/post-apocalypse was a possibility - it would make sense to see that reflected in their game, because it would be something on everyone's minds around 1990.  Just look at a lot of the movies of that era.

And ecological collapse, in the wake of things like Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, provides easy inspiration for game designers tryign to do new things for D&D.  

If it was meant to cash in on other product lines, that was a secondary goal.  Mostly, it just came from a different way of thinking than the earlier products.  It was a much more "modern" setting, using many more newer role-playing ideas than older concepts.  (For example, there are relatively few Dungeons in earlier dark sun adventures, and only lip service paid to them in most products).


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## Aloïsius (Oct 5, 2009)

Wik said:


> (For example, there are relatively few Dungeons in earlier dark sun adventures, and only lip service paid to them in most products).




I hope WotC will remember that this is important for the Dark Sund feel.


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## Wik (Oct 5, 2009)

Aloïsius said:


> I hope WotC will remember that this is important for the Dark Sund feel.




Oh, I imagine we'll see dungeons.  And I'm okay with that.  They just have to be the right TYPE of dungeons. 

I've run plenty of DS Dungeons, and they can be a lot of fun.  They're just not "megadungeons"... more "five room dungeons".


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## Nifft (Oct 5, 2009)

Wik said:


> Oh, I imagine we'll see dungeons.  And I'm okay with that.  They just have to be the right TYPE of dungeons.
> 
> I've run plenty of DS Dungeons, and they can be a lot of fun.  They're just not "megadungeons"... more "five room dungeons".



 The wilderness around those five rooms is also a dungeon ... sorta.

Cheers, -- N


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Oct 6, 2009)

Alphastream said:


> Twitter from the Dark Sun playtests says a player was bloodied by defiling magic!
> 
> _"Hah! I just got bloodied by an ally's defiling magic. Potentially the first time that has happened in official 4th Edition."_



I wonder if this means that it was the defiling that pushed into bloodied, or the effect of the spell that did it. I'm not sure how I like PC's defiling affecting non-plant life. Feels like a mood changer. Good or bad? Not sure yet.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Oct 6, 2009)

Alphastream said:


> Twitter from the Dark Sun playtests says a player was bloodied by defiling magic!
> 
> _"Hah! I just got bloodied by an ally's defiling magic. Potentially the first time that has happened in official 4th Edition."_




Heh, cue the people screaming "they changed it, now it sucks!"


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## Helena Real (Oct 6, 2009)

Long time hater of DS (out-of-the-blue, actually), usually a lurker here at EN World. Still sitting on the fence regarding 4E. Having recently read 11 pages of discussion regarding an eleven-month away CS.

What do I have to say to all of you? That you made it. I want to give 4E another try. I do want to try DS for the first time in my life. I'd love to read and play the material of something that I didn't like previously (and haven't seen yet) simply because there's so much passion about it here. I think that's what EN World (and communities in general) are all about: giving gamers and/or readers a sense of the importance of what is out there waiting for any of us who hasn't tasted yet to just make the jump... and give it a try.

Perhaps that's the reason why D&D is still alive and rolling after so much time. Because there's love and passion going through every gamer's fiber regarding everything they like (and hate).

Best regards to all of you,

Felipe.


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## Wik (Oct 6, 2009)

Eric Anondson said:


> I wonder if this means that it was the defiling that pushed into bloodied, or the effect of the spell that did it. I'm not sure how I like PC's defiling affecting non-plant life. Feels like a mood changer. Good or bad? Not sure yet.




From the original Dark Sun rules book:



> _Effects on Living Creatures:_  Though only plants are destroyed within the radius, living creatures are caused great pain.  ANy being in the radius of a defiler's magic suffers an immediate initiative modifier penalty equal to the level of the defiler spell cast.  No matter how high the resulting initiate [sp] roll, though, the pain can never keep a character from performing an action in the round.  The initiative penalty only postpones when the action occurs.




IN addition, there is art of defilers turning people to ash with their magic.

So, I don't really think it's a mood changer.  Actually, I think 4e will probably do a better job reflecting it.  Because HP damage was too big a penalty in 2e (since PCs tended to have fewer HP)... 4e characters are more able to take it.  Just hope you can't use defiling as a minion-popper.  

And Felipe - thanks a lot!  Us DSers are pretty hardcore people that love the setting to death.


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## Korgoth (Oct 6, 2009)

Alphastream said:


> To try to keep this thread on the topic of DS teasers (belive it or not, the thread is not actually about WotC forum screen appearance ...
> 
> Twitter from the Dark Sun playtests says a player was bloodied by defiling magic!
> 
> _"Hah! I just got bloodied by an ally's defiling magic. Potentially the first time that has happened in official 4th Edition."_




Interesting.


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## ProfessorCirno (Oct 6, 2009)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> Heh, cue the people screaming "they changed it, now it sucks!"




Well, nobody screamed that, for starters.

And secondly, they didn't change anything to begin with.

So uh, enjoy desperately trying to get reactions out of people, I suppose?


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## RodneyThompson (Oct 6, 2009)

Wik said:


> From the original Dark Sun rules book:
> 
> IN addition, there is art of defilers turning people to ash with their magic.
> 
> So, I don't really think it's a mood changer.  Actually, I think 4e will probably do a better job reflecting it.  Because HP damage was too big a penalty in 2e (since PCs tended to have fewer HP)... 4e characters are more able to take it.  Just hope you can't use defiling as a minion-popper.




Hey, glad someone else does their research.  

Though everything I will say will be interpreted as corporate shilling, I speak now as a Dark Sun fan. There are some things that I think 4E just does better for Dark Sun thanks to the basis of the mechanics. I think defiling is going to be one of them, but there are some others I think will pleasantly surprise people with how smoothly they work.

Also: keep an eye on my Twitter feed on Sundays. That's when the Dark Sun playtest game I'm in is running, and I plan to tweet at least a couple of times per session.


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## Wik (Oct 6, 2009)

Moridin said:


> Hey, glad someone else does their research.
> 
> Though everything I will say will be interpreted as corporate shilling, I speak now as a Dark Sun fan. There are some things that I think 4E just does better for Dark Sun thanks to the basis of the mechanics. I think defiling is going to be one of them, but there are some others I think will pleasantly surprise people with how smoothly they work.
> 
> Also: keep an eye on my Twitter feed on Sundays. That's when the Dark Sun playtest game I'm in is running, and I plan to tweet at least a couple of times per session.




Yeah.  I think a lot of people skipped that rule back in the day (it was pretty annoying), and the fact that defiling drained all life (instead of just plant life) was sort of forgotten.

There's a picture of a guy getting destroyed by a sorcerer king's spell in one of the books.  It always bugged me that the game never really reflected that in 2e.  I'm curious to see how it goes in 4e.

As I've said a couple times (here and in other places), I'm not really worried about how 4e handles defiling.  I think things like economy and equipment are my big concerns.


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## abyssaldeath (Oct 6, 2009)

Wik said:


> There's a picture of a guy getting destroyed by a sorcerer king's spell in one of the books.  It always bugged me that the game never really reflected that in 2e.  I'm curious to see how it goes in 4e.



Only the most powerful Defilers(Sorcerer-Kings and other Dragons) were supposed to be able to do that.


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## kilamanjaro (Oct 6, 2009)

abyssaldeath said:


> Only the most powerful Defilers(Sorcerer-Kings and other Dragons) were supposed to be able to do that.




The Dragon Kings hardback had rules for high level defilers doing damage to living creatures with their spells.


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## SSquirrel (Oct 6, 2009)

Bold or Stupid said:


> I was talking about my impressions at the time, I suspect they both were feeding off the dark edge running through geek culture post Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen.




Both of which came out in 1986.  They certainly cast long shadows and helped instill a harder edge in the comics industry.



Wik said:


> Also, remember that Dark Sun was designed during the fall of the U.S.S.R. and the Cold War was foremost on everyone's minds (what if the Soviets release their missiles, knowing they have nothing to lose?). All of the designers grew up in a time where the threat of nuclear fallout/post-apocalypse was a possibility - it would make sense to see that reflected in their game, because it would be something on everyone's minds around 1990. Just look at a lot of the movies of that era.
> 
> And ecological collapse, in the wake of things like Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, provides easy inspiration for game designers tryign to do new things for D&D.




Movies like Mad Max, The Day After and Blade Runner all showed various levels of ecological destruction.  Blade Runner is less a blasted wilderness than Mad Max is, but most people do what they can to minimize the effects of the acid rain and wear masks to keep the poor air out of their bodies.  The Day After is, of course, nuclear devastation, and Dark Sun was certainly something we could imagine as a future earth post-nuke.




Felipe_Real said:


> What do I have to say to all of you? That you made it. I want to give 4E another try. I do want to try DS for the first time in my life. I'd love to read and play the material of something that I didn't like previously (and haven't seen yet) simply because there's so much passion about it here. I think that's what EN World (and communities in general) are all about: giving gamers and/or readers a sense of the importance of what is out there waiting for any of us who hasn't tasted yet to just make the jump... and give it a try.




That's awesome man.  It's always great to see people's eyes get opened to new things.  I hope you have only positive experiences with both 4E and Dark Sun.  I definitely prefer the original boxed set to the revised, that is definitely the place to start if you decide to look back at the original.  If for no other reason than that gives you all the class and race information as well as all the basics of the area.


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## Alphastream (Oct 6, 2009)

Moridin said:


> Hey, glad someone else does their research.
> 
> Also: keep an eye on my Twitter feed on Sundays.




Nah, just post your address and I'll drive up... 

Yeah, keep the posts coming, but it is time you guys spill the beans on something. With no new classes, does every race/class get a conversion kit? What is a Templar? A class feature? A conversion of a class? What is an Athasian Dwarf, as compared to a PH Dwarf? We want answers!


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## Alphastream (Oct 6, 2009)

Felipe_Real said:


> What do I have to say to all of you? That you made it. I want to give 4E another try. I do want to try DS for the first time in my life.




Gracias, Felipe!

Trying stuff you hate can be surprisingly good. I hated the description of DS in the store when it first came out. It sounded munchkin. Then my players bought the set and gifted it to me. "Run this," they ordered. I became a huge fan.

The same is true of a lot of things, where players showed me the way.

Similarly, you will find my name in the PH, but at the end of that first preview at D&DXP, I was hating a lot about 4E (despite being tired of 3.5 and open to a new edition). A few months later, I was a convert. It isn't perfect, but I can't think of it as anything but the finest edition of D&D yet.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 6, 2009)

ooh, WOTC demon, er, designer involved, now..._mmmmm _*evil cheesy grin* 

Well, the Dragon was mentioned in original boxed set as killing with the defiling effect of it's magic, not just the spells themselves, as first note of defiling causing damage. 
Though I always saw the Dragon's defiling like a _massive _AOE death spell, making every living thing crumble as their "life juices" were sucked out, muhaha!
Like, oh when Sauron gets killed at the start of the first LOTR film. _That _degree of bad-ass is what the Dragon should do when it defiles!

If Defiling causes damage, will effects like War Wizard have usual effects of sparing/allieviating allies the damage the caster's arcane spells do? Hey... 

One of the Dark Sun uber-fans posted his very cool homebrew rules here on EnWorld with defiling being powers that replace normal utility powers, which seemed actually a good way to do it and I liked the effects, but...then the defiler would lose out on utility powers? Hm, but it would be a good way to do it, so you'd use say a utility power to renew encounter or daily powers, but at cost of defiling "close burst" of increasing area and  damage?


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## Wik (Oct 6, 2009)

SSquirrel said:


> Movies like Mad Max, The Day After and Blade Runner all showed various levels of ecological destruction.  Blade Runner is less a blasted wilderness than Mad Max is, but most people do what they can to minimize the effects of the acid rain and wear masks to keep the poor air out of their bodies.  The Day After is, of course, nuclear devastation, and Dark Sun was certainly something we could imagine as a future earth post-nuke.





Ha.  People that know me learn pretty quickly that they should avoid mentioning Bladerunner around me, or I'll talk their ear off.  I have a pretty strong guess that I'm one of the bigger uber-fans on this site (or most non-BR sites).  

I imagine that's probably one of the reasons I like Dark Sun.

For the record, I have all of those movies.  And I could add a bunch more to the list - Post-apocalyptic fiction is a huge interest of mine.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 6, 2009)

Wik,
still wish they had filmed the Moon sequence with Batty 
but NOTHING has touched the Blade RUnner intro for truly beautiful imagery!!


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## Wik (Oct 7, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Wik,
> still wish they had filmed the Moon sequence with Batty
> but NOTHING has touched the Blade RUnner intro for truly beautiful imagery!!




I wish they had filmed the original opening, with the cabin and Deckard killing a replicant and pulling out the guy's jaw and finding a serial number on the back.

My favourite scene in any movie, ever, is the "tears in the rain" scene.  Especially because it was pretty much ad-libbed.

But I digress.


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## Dausuul (Oct 7, 2009)

Eric Anondson said:


> I wonder if this means that it was the defiling that pushed into bloodied, or the effect of the spell that did it. I'm not sure how I like PC's defiling affecting non-plant life. Feels like a mood changer. Good or bad? Not sure yet.




I like it. A lot. It's a perfect answer to the problem of keeping the game balanced while making defilers more powerful than preservers. Sure, you're more powerful, your spells are more effective for your level... but you fry your allies every time you cast! It's got a nice soupcon of evil recklessness to it, it's simple and easy to understand, and it fits the defiling concept like a glove.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 7, 2009)

Wik
yeah, sigh that's what I want a D&D movie to be like, not like...that screwed up heresy we got! 

Visuals like Blade Runner, Dune, LOTR, and novel covers of old etc help shape my games (note my art, too hehe.)
There was an outstanding piece of scifi art for a novel, around early 70s, for John Carter of Mars book?? with alien insect with big round disc feet...damn, that was fantastic and very Athasian!!!

Back on topic!
Dausuul
That's true. For NPC defilers "balance" doesn't matter, but for PC ones it does....nd one of the warlock's pwoeras already can hurt allies, for extra damage, iirc?


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## Mistwell (Oct 7, 2009)

Aloïsius said:


> I hope WotC will remember that this is important for the Dark Sund feel.




I just recently finished the original boxed set.  Dungeons are frequently mentioned.  Ancient civilizations that lie in ruin, buried beneath the sands.


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## SSquirrel (Oct 7, 2009)

Wik said:


> Ha.  People that know me learn pretty quickly that they should avoid mentioning Bladerunner around me, or I'll talk their ear off.  I have a pretty strong guess that I'm one of the bigger uber-fans on this site (or most non-BR sites).




Yeah when they released The Final Cut version I bought the 5 blu ray suitcase edition heh.  One of the best things is that all of that was done before computer graphics for special effects in movies.  Philip K Dick watched some scenes from Blade Runner before they had it done and apparently asked Ridley how they stole the images from inside his mind 

Movies like this, comics like Dark Knight and Watchmen, the end of the cold war after years of threat of nuclear war....it was all sort of a perfect storm of influences to spawn Dark Sun maybe.  Then you throw Brom's amazing art into the mix,  I really hope they are able to get Brom involved in the new edition.  Whether they get to re-use some of the old art or get him to do some new.  I don't mind either way, but I would love to see his take on some of the new stuff.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 7, 2009)

actually, Blade Runner, iirc, was the first film to use computers, to control the camera for the intor sequence which was shot on an extremely long exposure? 

Dark Sun does have lots of Dungeons as you note, but not an "Underdark" unless as a DM makes such or WOTC adds it 
I'd be happy to see such but of an Athasian flavour...remember, the planet's water IS mostly underground! Aboleths living in vast seas...psionics!! eh?
In my vision of Athas, the events that triggered the SUn to become a red giant caused enormous earthquakes that wrecked the Udnerdark and the illithid civilization there in.
You could have seas pouring into the titanic fissures, drying up an already catastrophically damaged planet.

Most Dark Sun "dungeons" are mostly, thankfully, forts, city encounters and so on. I don't mind "ye traditional dungeon" but not my fave a sa DM (preffer them as a player actually).


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## SSquirrel (Oct 7, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> actually, Blade Runner, iirc, was the first film to use computers, to control the camera for the intor sequence which was shot on an extremely long exposure?




I can't remember if they had computers controling the cameras or not.  My PS3 is busted right now so I can't watch my featurettes and tell ya   I had specified computers for graphics purposes, which goes to TRON, at least for full screen CGI only.  The scene where the MPC is destroying itself was the first fully CGI scene in a movie ever.  Everything about the production of TRON is completely nuts, watch the making of videos on the DVD.


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## Jhaelen (Oct 8, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Dark Sun does have lots of Dungeons as you note, but not an "Underdark" unless as a DM makes such or WOTC adds it



Well, it does have UnderTyr! That was quite a significant part of the setting in my game.


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## Wik (Oct 8, 2009)

I'm pretty sure all the shots in Bladerunner were all manually-done.  most of those crazy lighting shots were just done by having guys with arc lights behind the set, flashing the lights into a darkened room.  And those city-scape shots (I can't remember the actual term they use right now... somethign to do with hell) were done with metal cutouts and elbow grease. 

And Ssquirel, I have that set, too.  And I love it... I want to frame the cutouts that come with it, but I have yet to get around to doing it.  But I have all the stuff on display on my bookshelf.  Along with movie postcards for Futurama and The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly.  

Oh, dear lord, I'm getting revved up about Bladerunner again.  I should shut up, now.  

***

Mistwell - I imagine you're right.  I haven't read the boxed set in a while.  I guess a lot of people (myself included) think of Dark Sun as more of a wilderness adventure/urban adventure setting, and forget that dungeons can be a big part of things, as well.

An "underdark" for Athas would be a deal-breaker for me.  Dungeons should be small, in my humble opinion.  Though UnderTyr was kind of cool, if a bit silly at times.  And Silverblade - I love Aboleth... but if I saw them on Athas, I'd go all nerd ragey.


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## wedgeski (Oct 8, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> actually, Blade Runner, iirc, was the first film to use computers, to control the camera for the intor sequence which was shot on an extremely long exposure?



Nope, the use of computers for motion control goes right back to the original Star Wars.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Oct 8, 2009)

well in Blade RUnner they DID use a computer to film that fly over shot, because the exposures were so long, the camera had to move extremely slowly, no Human could keep it steady enough and control the exposures, hence, computer 

Actually yes, Star Wars (or was it return of the Jedi?) did have first computer generated image, for the Bothan spies Death Star image? But iirc Blade Runner had first computer use to MAKE a film sequence, if see what I mean? 

Ah, Tron...what awesomness!  Let's hope Tron2 is not yet another dire Hollwyood rehash 

Well, my vision of Athas history is totally different, the illithids tried to put out the Sun, it screwed up, went nova, gods stopped that but god FUBARed in doing so...and the Udnerdark is moslty flooded with collosal seas, and thus aboleths would fit _my _vision, but more...strangely 

Aye, Under Tyr was cool, whole city almost below the normal one (sort of like we have under some European cities, see Mary Kings Close in Edinburgh!). 
UnderTyr is where pal's character in my current campaign met "raaigs" vengeful spirits of priests long gone, who imbued him with their power, so now, he looks Human, but is a goliath Avenger, out to slay the defilers and sorceror kings!


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