# The Prequels, Episodes I-III.  What did you like about them?



## Water Bob (Dec 20, 2015)

I dislike the Star Wars prequels as much as most fans.  But, like Vader, I still see some good in the shows.  Not enough to save them, but the prequels had their moments.  So, this thread is about, "What did you like?"





For me?

I liked the look of the *Naboo starfighters* quite a bit.  They were different from what we were used to and fit the pageantry associated with Naboo's culture (from looking at the Queen's costumes and face painting).

I actually like the *story behind the prequels*.  Palpatine's Machiavellian politics and rise to power, and Anakin's slow fall to the Dark Side.  I thought the actual story is really incredible.  The presentation of that story is where it fails, in my opinion.  The story, though, is quite intriguing and more complicated and involved than I would think at first.  It's a well thought-out tale (that was just not presented that well at all).

I like how Lucas directed the *R2-D2* scene in The Phantom Menace.  That little droid is a brave little thing!

I liked how the *Clone Army* was thought of as the "good guys", and then the troopers became the "bad guys".  They're the bad guys in the original trilogy, but they're the Republic's troops in the prequels--the good guys.

The fight between Jango Fett and Obi-wan Kenobi, both in the asteroid ring and on the water planet was, for me, the best fight scenes in all three of the prequels.

I thought Darth Maul was just down right cool.  I think they should have kept him throughout all of the prequels.  He should have been the last test for Anakin before turning to the Dark Side.  Anakin should have had to defeat him to become Darth Vader and take his place at the Emperor's side.

There's more, but let's see what things it was you liked about the prequels....


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## ccs (Dec 20, 2015)

The #1 thing I liked from the prequels: The Naboo starfighter.  Cool looking ship.  Reminds me of a manta ray & a sports car.  
After that?
Naboo,
Darth Maul - I was sorry to see him get introduced & discarded all in two hours.
McGregors Obi-Wan,
The Gungen city,
Obi-Wan vrs Jango/the whole Kimino sequence
the Art Deco look of Couriscant (sp?)
the Pod Racing sequence

Jar-Jar....  Unlike nearly everyone else, I don't hate Jar-Jar.  I don't love him either, but..... I (almost) like him. He's just goofy & mostly there to amuse the kids.  I can accept that.  Besides, he's nowhere near being the worst aspect of these 3 films.


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## SailorNash (Dec 20, 2015)

Obi-Wan, first and foremost. Considering how quickly he's cut down in ANH, I really enjoyed getting to see his character shine. 

Also the lightsaber battles. A lot of folks disliked the wuxia feel as compared to the original duels, and sometimes they did go a bit far, but nevertheless I enjoyed them.


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## Tonguez (Dec 20, 2015)

very little unfortunately
the only good performance came from Senator Palpatine when he was manipulating the senate
sure the double lightsabre was cool but Maul didn't impress me, especially when he ended up being expendable. I thought super spinning power yoda was flashy but stoopid (I can justify why Yoda might have the Taz Devil Spin but its still stoopid)
and I liked Amidala's elaborate costumes


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## Water Bob (Dec 20, 2015)

SailorNash said:


> Also the lightsaber battles. A lot of folks disliked the wuxia feel as compared to the original duels, and sometimes they did go a bit far, but nevertheless I enjoyed them.




Wait until you see The Force Awakens.  You haven't _seen_ a lightsaber duel until you've seen that film.  For the first time, in any Star Wars film, the sabers are presented as the horrible, gritty, deadly, weapons of death that they are.  The lightsaber fights are vicious.


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## Maxperson (Dec 20, 2015)

The lightsaber fights were all that was good in the first three.


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## Staffan (Dec 20, 2015)

Water Bob said:


> I thought Darth Maul was just down right cool.  I think they should have kept him throughout all of the prequels.  He should have been the last test for Anakin before turning to the Dark Side.  Anakin should have had to defeat him to become Darth Vader and take his place at the Emperor's side.




I don't get the love for Darth Maul. I mean, he _looks_ cool, but he doesn't seem very menacing. When Darth Vader enters a room, he _owns_ that room. I don't get that feeling from Darth Maul at all. Plus, double-bladed lightsabers are dumb, and gave us a decade of equally dumb double weapons in D&D.

I agree that the story behind the prequels is pretty cool though, with Palpatine manipulating his way to power and seducing Anakin. I just wish Lucas had handed off actually writing and directing that story to someone more competent.

The Phantom Menace also gave us this:
[video=youtube_share;hEcjgJSqSRU]http://youtu.be/hEcjgJSqSRU[/video]


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## The_Silversword (Dec 20, 2015)

Episode 2 was the best one for me, it had everything  I waited 20 some years to see, Yoda with a lightsaber, army of Jedi with lightsabers blazing, Mandalorian warriors, Anakin goin darkside, The Clone Wars. 

And 3 had Yoda vs Emperor so that was pretty kool, it was a pretty lightsaber duel heavy movie, which was cool with me,


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## Dioltach (Dec 20, 2015)

Apart from the obvious, I like that they spawned _Darths & Droids_. Summon Bigger Fish!


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## horacethegrey (Dec 20, 2015)

Well if you had to ask me...

*Darth Maul* - What a cool looking villain, and that double lightsaber was boss. Was really stupid to kill him off so quickly. He should have been a recurring villain throughout the series.
*
Qui-Gon Jinn* - Liam Neeson was the best thing in _The Phantom Menace_, even though I think his character was totally unnecessary.

*Shmi Skywalker *- For what is a small supporting role, Pernilla August gave her role as Anakin's mother heart and poignance.

*Clones *- Surprisingly, the backstory on the clones and how they were made was really interesting. I actually didn't fall asleep with that piece of exposition.

*Ian Mcdiarmid as Palpatine *- Especially in Revenge of the Sith. He just does over the top evil so well. That evil cackle he lets out is classic.

*John Williams* - Duel of the Fates, Across the Stars and others. I just thought this was some of William's best work in Star Wars.


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## mr_outsidevoice (Dec 20, 2015)

Darth Maul duel with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.
The core story behind it was good, just poorly executed.
The best part was it set up the Clone Wars cartoons which had some great moments and deepened the tragedy of Anakin.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 20, 2015)

Hmmm ...

Pluses: 

Art-deco design
Clear evolution to the "future" trilogy
Attempted to tell a Skywalker arc (just did it poorly)
Some good action sequences
Firespray dogfight in Episode II (I don't like Jango, or the way clones were handled, but I loved that dogfight.)
Ben & Anakin's lightsaber battle


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## MarkB (Dec 20, 2015)

SailorNash said:


> Also the lightsaber battles. A lot of folks disliked the wuxia feel as compared to the original duels, and sometimes they did go a bit far, but nevertheless I enjoyed them.




More than just the lightsaber battles, I enjoyed seeing what actual, properly-trained Jedi in their prime were capable of in general - practised, focused applications of the Force that integrated perfectly into their fighting style.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 20, 2015)

My list:

1) Darth Maul


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## ccs (Dec 21, 2015)

Staffan said:


> I don't get the love for Darth Maul. I mean, he _looks_ cool, but he doesn't seem very menacing. When Darth Vader enters a room, he _owns_ that room. I don't get that feeling from Darth Maul at all. Plus, double-bladed lightsabers are dumb, and gave us a decade of equally dumb double weapons in D&D.




Well, looking cool is step 1.  When I see him I can envision all kinds of awesome action, toys, etc.   But like a lot of stuff in I-III his potential was wasted.

As for comparing to Vader?  That's not really fair because there's virtually no other movie villain that manages that either.  Not even Heath Ledgers Joker.
Movie villain perfection was achieved via Darth Vader.  As soon as he stepped into view through that smoking portal onto the Tantive, before he did or said anything, you knew that THIS was THE bad guy.  And that he was a galactic badass.


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## WayneLigon (Dec 21, 2015)

I liked a lot of the ship and planet designs.
I liked Obi-Wan, esp in the first and second movies. Like Qui-Gon, and Darth Maul.
I like the look and concept of Count Dooku, though we see far too little of him.


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## Staffan (Dec 21, 2015)

ccs said:


> Well, looking cool is step 1.  When I see him I can envision all kinds of awesome action, toys, etc.   But like a lot of stuff in I-III his potential was wasted.
> 
> As for comparing to Vader?  That's not really fair because there's virtually no other movie villain that manages that either.  Not even Heath Ledgers Joker.
> Movie villain perfection was achieved via Darth Vader.  As soon as he stepped into view through that smoking portal onto the Tantive, before he did or said anything, you knew that THIS was THE bad guy.  And that he was a galactic badass.




True, Vader is one of the best villains of all time. But that does set a high bar for anyone who's trying to follow him.

But even so... we get to see Vader _do_ a whole lot of things in A New Hope. He leads the attack on the Tantive. He, and Tarkin, interrogate Leia. He teaches the Death Star command a lesson in the power of the Force. He kills Obi-Wan. When needed, he hops into a custom-made TIE fighter to shoot down the Rebel Scum attacking the Death Star. We even get some background on him, albeit "from a certain point of view."

Maul, on the other hand, is a complete cypher. We get to see him look cool standing next to Sidious. He fights Qui-Gonn in the desert, and later he fights Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan in Theed. We learn nothing about him, and he doesn't do anything other than fight.


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## Janx (Dec 21, 2015)

I only saw them once.  In the theatre.  Whereas, I'd see the original 3 on TV long before I got to see the re-releases on the big screen.


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## amerigoV (Dec 23, 2015)

I liked:

1. Palpatine - I have a suspicion that the story GL really wanted to tell was the rise of the Empire. Everything with Anakin's fall just felt bolted on

2. McGregor as Obi Wan in 2 and 3. I felt he really grew into the role.

3. Clone Wars Animated Series. I know, not part of the movies, but the movies made them possible and they were very good overall.

4. Red Letter Media reviews. Yes, they are harsh. But I learned a good amount about movie making and story telling from them.

5. Jango Fett/Obi Wan fight

6. R2D2 - cuz he is always da bomb.


Only 1 and 2 above popped into my head. That is telling, I think.


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## cmad1977 (Dec 23, 2015)

Nothing. Those films were objectively garbage. Terrible acting. Vapid script. Cartoon effects.


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## MechaPilot (Dec 24, 2015)

Water Bob said:


> Wait until you see The Force Awakens.  You haven't _seen_ a lightsaber duel until you've seen that film.  For the first time, in any Star Wars film, the sabers are presented as the horrible, gritty, deadly, weapons of death that they are.  The lightsaber fights are vicious.




I have to disagree with that.  The lightsaber duels in TFA felt to me like a middle-ground between the "actors lazily poking at each other" of the original trilogy and the extremely choreographed battles of the prequels.  That said, the story of TFA did a better job of setting things up so that each of the duels felt like they really had serious stakes than the prequels did.


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## Water Bob (Dec 24, 2015)

MechaPilot said:


> I have to disagree with that.  The lightsaber duels in TFA felt to me like a middle-ground between the "actors lazily poking at each other" of the original trilogy and the extremely choreographed battles of the prequels.  That said, the story of TFA did a better job of setting things up so that each of the duels felt like they really had serious stakes than the prequels did.




Yeah, I can't agree.  The prequel saber fights, to me, looked like the actors just swinging handles around anywhere they wanted, and the CGI folks drew in their strokes later, based on the actor's movement.  They never felt like weapons the way they did in the original trilogy, and especially in the new movie.


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2015)

I found the prequel fights to be soulless dances. They had little emotion. The fight at the end of Ep VI may not have been ballet, but it was captivating watching. Full of raw emotion.


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## MechaPilot (Dec 24, 2015)

Morrus said:


> I found the prequel fights to be soulless dances. They had little emotion. The fight at the end of Ep VI may not have been ballet, but it was captivating watching. Full of raw emotion.




The fight at the end of VI was probably the best one of the original trilogy.  Although I do think that's due to the stakes that were placed on it by the story.  I think the fight in Cloud City in Empire was probably the best one from the perspective of looking at the technical aspects of the fight.


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2015)

MechaPilot said:


> The fight at the end of VI was probably the best one of the original trilogy.  Although I do think that's due to the stakes that were placed on it by the story.  I think the fight in Cloud City in Empire was probably the best one from the perspective of looking at the technical aspects of the fight.




There were only three. The Empire and Jedi ones were both great. The New Hope one? Alec Guinness was an old man!


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## megamania (Dec 25, 2015)

Darth Maul.     Needs to return in the movies

Explanation of Clone Wars for those of us that never read the novels

General Greivious (sp).   bad a$$ and he wasn't even a jedi


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## darjr (Dec 25, 2015)

I think I'd have to go back and watch them again, and I don't want to do that. But I do remember liking the lightsaber battles, though I agree they are mostly soulless. The first one was my favorite and I remember thinking it was dumb killing off Darth Maul. For me he wasn't menacing but radiated raw rage and hate. When I first saw him I was looking forward to the emperor having to fight and kill him because he'd screw something up too many times just to vent his hate. That would have been interesting.

Also I remember loving the idea of a Clone war. I thought it would include clones of Jedi and senators. Imagining Jedi fighting Jedi and never really knowing if it was a turned Jedi or a clone. But then it wasn't that.


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## Eltab (Dec 25, 2015)

1. Darth Maul's costume, makeup, and double-ended lightsaber.  He _looked_ like a Sith assassin.  He should not have been the Sith Apprentice but Sidious' enforcer, taught some Force talents to make him more dangerous.

2. Rise of the Emperor, and his manipulation of Galactic politics so that nobody (but him) could get anything done.  Too bad most of this only came out via Palpatine's "special Dark Lord of the Sith power: Makes plot commentary for the audience's benefit, in front of characters who have no business knowing what he's really up to and don't take the hints anyway"

3. Jedi moral dilemma: do we help the suffering people in front of us, or stick with The Master Plan (tm) that requires we get somewhere else asap?  (Slavery on Tatooine, which is both immoral in and of itself, plus unlawful under the Republic.)
3a. Qui-Jon having to 'tilt the odds' when he realizes he can get only one person - Anakin or Shmi - away from their owner

4. Anakin as a rebellious Padawan, obviously striving against Obi-Wan more than he is learning anything.  This helps set up some comments and background in the other movies.


Of course, all these come with a heavy dose of "what might have been".
1) Introducing and then killing Darth Maul in the same movie was a waste of a good character concept
1a) If one blade is good, two is better.  If two is good, four is twice as good, right? ... umm, maybe not.  Grevious was hard to watch and understand what he was doing with all those whirling blades.  (Helicopters or shields are not as impressive as "rub your tummy and pat your head" at the same time.  Anakin does this right for a little bit when chasing Dooku.)

2) Anakin and Padme's abortive and clunky discussion of politics should have flowed from a discussion of difficult negotiations, not his impatience with results.

3) Really - the Good Guys of the Galaxy have NO IDEA that the Republic is in distress - they are too busy meditating on the Balance of the Force - and no amount of reports from the field can break through the fog ?!

4) Also nobody notices that the Knight / Padawan relationship is already in tatters, nor does anybody offer to take Anakin off Obi-Wan's obviously overburdened / befuddled hands.  Mace Windu would have been a better Master for Anakin, because he could pound Anakin into the pavement as the beginning of teaching him how to respect people with lesser talents than his own.


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## Morrus (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm trying to think what I thought the clone wars were like before the prequels came out. Back when all we had was a mention in ANH.


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## MarkB (Dec 25, 2015)

Morrus said:


> I'm trying to think what I thought the clone wars were like before the prequels came out. Back when all we had was a mention in ANH.




For one thing, I always imagined it as a series of conflicts, perhaps over decades. A single massive conflict, even on a galactic scale, doesn't really earn the plural.


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## Eltab (Dec 25, 2015)

Morrus said:


> I'm trying to think what I thought the clone wars were like before the prequels came out. Back when all we had was a mention in ANH.



I imagined that there was a chance that somebody who fought the cloner and lost would be, well, cloned; the clones would be trained into loyalty to the cloner; and the (original dead guy's) friends would have to fight his clone later on.  
In theory, like vampires and necromancers, the cloner should be able to build up a 'snowball' effect and overwhelm his opponents by multitude of numbers.  But the Jedi somehow managed to break that cycle and be victorious in the Republic's name.  

I hadn't really thought of cloning one person many times over at the same time.


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## Cor Azer (Dec 26, 2015)

I pictured them as both sides were using clones, likely as some sort of flesh-and-blood fodder like biological robots - less "human" loss of life, but more tactical flexibility than droids.


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## Staffan (Dec 26, 2015)

I remember that one of the theories surrounding the Clone Wars was that Obi-Wan was a clone - the name wasn't "Obi-Wan" so much as it was "OB-1".


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## Water Bob (Jan 2, 2016)

I've been re-watching the prequels since I started this thread, and I think that there is one over-riding factor keeping the films from being pretty good.  That's the silliness.  The kiddie-fied universe.

The films are actually pretty decent-to-real good Star Wars films when the silliness isn't on screen.  Darth Maul's two fights with Qui-Gon.  No silliness and some of the best parts of Episode I.  Contrast that with the Gungan battle--super silly and not so good. 

The pod race should have been a big Star Wars wow moment.  Instead, the stupid twin-headed race annoucer and all the silly drivers make it less memorable.  Just think if the pod race had been with the realty used in the speeder bike scenes on Endor in Episode VI.  Done that way, the pod-race would be awesome, I bet.

Again, Obi-wan's fights with Boba Fett, both on Kamino and in the asteroid belt around Geonosis.  Cool Star Wars moments.  But, the attack on the Trade Federation blockade, in Epsiode I, is silly the way it focused on a young boy "Now, this is pod racing!" coupled with the silly droids.

The standard dog soldier droids, with their "Roger, Roger," are down right silly.  The droidekas (the ones that roll the pop up like spiders with shields on) are pretty cool and hold our attention more--because they're taken more seriously.

I've read that one rule Lucas had when filming the first film, Episode IV, was that people (studio executives and actors) kept trying to play the parts tongue-in-cheek.  Lucas insisted that the material be taken seriously.  That's why there isn't a lot of silliness in A New Hope (or even Empire).  But, time progressed, we see more and more of it popping up in the films, starting with the silly band at Jabba's Palace and the Ewoks in Episode VI.



The next time you sit down to watch any of the prequels, ask yourself, "Would this scene be a lot more interesting if it were taken more serious and done without the silly parts?"

If so, I bet we'd all be jumping around with thumbs up for the prequel movies.

Even Jar Jar Binks.  If he were more realistic and not as cartoony and silly in the way he speaks and acts, I bet he'd be a beloved new character added to the Star Wars line of heroes--at least on a level with C-3PO and R2-D2.

Look at C-3PO in Attack of the Clones, running around all animated on that silly conveyor belt on Geonosis.  Not funny.  But, look at how he was portrayed in Empire, or even in the new film, when he popped up between Leia and Han just as they were reuniting.  THAT was humorous.  And, it wasn't silly.  C-3PO running around with his head attached to a dog soldier droid in Episode II, was silly and not funny.

My point:  Remove the silliness from the prequels, and you've got some good films on your hands.

The silliness in the films just kills them.


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## MechaPilot (Jan 2, 2016)

Water Bob said:


> My point:  Remove the silliness from the prequels, and you've got some good films on your hands.
> 
> The silliness in the films just kills them.




Ep II, and by extension EP III, has a crippling problem that removing the silliness won't help with: Anakin and Padme have the worst written, and the most wooden and shallow on-screen romance in the history of Hollywood.


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## Water Bob (Jan 3, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> Ep II, and by extension EP III, has a crippling problem that removing the silliness won't help with: Anakin and Padme have the worst written, and the most wooden and shallow on-screen romance in the history of Hollywood.




I typically love Natalie Portman, but I agree, she wasn't that good in the prequels.  And, Hayden Christiansen was a horrible choice to play Anakin.  Ben Foster would have been my choice.

But, even with those two playing the parts, and the parts as written--sure, they're not great--I do think, though, that the films would be markedly improved with the silliness removed.


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## Cor Azer (Jan 3, 2016)

Water Bob said:


> My point:  Remove the silliness from the prequels, and you've got some good films on your hands.
> 
> The silliness in the films just kills them.




I've not seen them, but my understanding is that this is why the Fan Edit versions of the prequels seem to meet with success. They edited out a lot of the silliness.

They can't fix a bad script, but good editors can certain mitigate the damage of one.


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## MechaPilot (Jan 3, 2016)

Water Bob said:


> I typically love Natalie Portman, but I agree, she wasn't that good in the prequels.  And, Hayden Christiansen was a horrible choice to play Anakin.  Ben Foster would have been my choice.
> 
> But, even with those two playing the parts, and the parts as written--sure, they're not great--I do think, though, that the films would be markedly improved with the silliness removed.




I agree that removing the silliness would help all the prequels, but the reason I mentioned the romance is because it is so pivotal to Anakin's turn in Ep III, and because it plays such a large role in the development of the Anakin and Padme characters in Ep II.  Ep II definitely would be better with less silliness, but that just can't salvage the harm that horrible romance does to the film.


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## Morrus (Jan 3, 2016)

One of the very best things at the time was this poster.


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## Maxperson (Jan 3, 2016)

Morrus said:


> One of the very best things at the time was this poster.




Wow.  I never saw that, but it's pretty cool.  Then we got a whiny Anakin and it just went downhill.


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## MechaPilot (Jan 3, 2016)

Maxperson said:


> Wow.  I never saw that, but it's pretty cool.  Then we got a whiny Anakin and it just went downhill.




To be fair, Luke is pretty whiny too.


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## Maxperson (Jan 3, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> To be fair, Luke is pretty whiny too.




That's true, but Anakin was worse I think.


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## Eltab (Jan 3, 2016)

Morrus said:


> The fight at the end of Ep VI may not have been ballet, but it was captivating watching. Full of raw emotion.



I cue'ed in on the soundtrack for that scene.  I had expected a montage of themes: when Luke is winning, hear the Opening Anthem; when Vader has the edge, hear the Imperial March.
Instead, the whole way through we heard the Emperor's moaning chorus: this duel - whatever the outcome - WORKS THE EMPEROR'S WILL.  I about fell out of my chair when I realized that.


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## Staffan (Jan 3, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> To be fair, Luke is pretty whiny too.




"Luke whines" is one of the most dangerous rules of the Star Wars Drinking Game.


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## amerigoV (Jan 3, 2016)

Thought I would add something after seeing Eps VII - at least the prequels were original. There were some parallels built in to the OT, but the material was new. Poorly executed, but new.

As much as I loved Eps VII, its a remake.


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## MechaPilot (Jan 3, 2016)

Maxperson said:


> That's true, but Anakin was worse I think.




I think the Anakin character comes off worse in general, but I'm not sure how much of that I'd attribute to whining.  Between Lucas' writing (Harrison Ford told Lucas during the original trilogy, "George, you can type this  but you sure as hell can't say it") and the direction we definitely didn't get good performances out of many of the actors.

Also, my opinion of the portrayal of the Anakin character is skewed due to the fact that most child actors tend to not be very good actors, and the child Anakin was our first glimpse of the character.  Hayden was better (which isn't a difficult bar to reach), but George just can't write a believable romance to save his life, and our first glimpse of a more adult Anakin came during the movie where the romance was absolutely pivotal to the development of the characters and their motivations in the following film.  Even the more believable Leia and Han romance was aided by actors altering the script; for example Ford ad libbed the "I know" response to Leia's "I love you."

For me, it's just a chain reaction of bad writing, bad direction, the use of poop and fart jokes, the racist stereotype aliens (of which Jar Jar is the best example of how bad they are), not so great child-acting as Anakin's introduction, more bad writing and bad direction when Christensen got involved, and actors unwilling to stand up to the then quite powerful Lucas (as compared to how he was when the first trilogy was made).


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## MechaPilot (Jan 3, 2016)

amerigoV said:


> Thought I would add something after seeing Eps VII - at least the prequels were original. There were some parallels built in to the OT, but the material was new. Poorly executed, but new.
> 
> As much as I loved Eps VII, its a remake.




I agree.  As far as originality is concerned, I thought the Hateful Eight was far superior to Ep VII.


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## Maxperson (Jan 3, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> I agree.  As far as originality is concerned, I thought the Hateful Eight was far superior to Ep VII.




Episode VII was a remake of A New Hope, but it was done well and provides a strong platform for moving off into new directions.  If they Turn VIII and IX into remakes of V and VI, I will be very disappointed.


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## Ovinomancer (Jan 3, 2016)

Maxperson said:


> Episode VII was a remake of A New Hope, but it was done well and provides a strong platform for moving off into new directions.  If they Turn VIII and IX into remakes of V and VI, I will be very disappointed.




 Gah.  It wasn't a remake.  At worst it was an homage.


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## MechaPilot (Jan 3, 2016)

Ovinomancer said:


> Gah.  It wasn't a remake.  At worst it was an homage.




It wasn't technically a remake, but it felt to me like far more than just an homage.


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## Maxperson (Jan 3, 2016)

Ovinomancer said:


> Gah.  It wasn't a remake.  At worst it was an homage.




Let's see...

Lucia Skywalker, sorry Rei Solo is sent to a desert planet as a child and raised there near a bunch of scavengers.  She comes across a droid fleeing the Empire, sorry the First Order and carrying plans that the Rebellion, sorry the Resistance needs desperately.  With the droid she meets Finn Solo, the reluctant hero and escaped with him from the the desert planet on the Millennium Falcon.  She has to escape the Empire, sorry First Order, but ends up captured and Finn Solo comes to her rescue.  She meets Darth Vader, sorry Darth Ren who serves the emperor who appeared by hologram....again.  "Darth Ren" is almost surely related to her somehow.  Rei, I am your brother/cousin!  There are a few scenes out of order.  The cantina scene happens after they leave the desert planet, but hey, nothing is perfect.    Meanwhile, the Empire, sorry the First Order uses the Death Star, sorry Death Planet to destroy Alderaan, sorry an entire system.  Then it turns the Death Star, sorry Death Planet against the Rebellion, sorry Resistance.  In a desperate bid to stay alive, an x-wing attack is launched at the Death Planet and the hot shot pilot even has a trench run at the small hole at the end to destroy the thing.

The only reason it wasn't a "remake" is that it wasn't called a remake.  Otherwise it was A New Hope all over again.


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## Ovinomancer (Jan 3, 2016)

Maxperson said:


> Let's see...
> 
> Lucia Skywalker, sorry Rei Solo is sent to a desert planet as a child and raised there near a bunch of scavengers.  She comes across a droid fleeing the Empire, sorry the First Order and carrying plans that the Rebellion, sorry the Resistance needs desperately.  With the droid she meets Finn Solo, the reluctant hero and escaped with him from the the desert planet on the Millennium Falcon.  She has to escape the Empire, sorry First Order, but ends up captured and Finn Solo comes to her rescue.  She meets Darth Vader, sorry Darth Ren who serves the emperor who appeared by hologram....again.  "Darth Ren" is almost surely related to her somehow.  Rei, I am your brother/cousin!  There are a few scenes out of order.  The cantina scene happens after they leave the desert planet, but hey, nothing is perfect.    Meanwhile, the Empire, sorry the First Order uses the Death Star, sorry Death Planet to destroy Alderaan, sorry an entire system.  Then it turns the Death Star, sorry Death Planet against the Rebellion, sorry Resistance.  In a desperate bid to stay alive, an x-wing attack is launched at the Death Planet and the hot shot pilot even has a trench run at the small hole at the end to destroy the thing.
> 
> The only reason it wasn't a "remake" is that it wasn't called a remake.  Otherwise it was A New Hope all over again.


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## Maxperson (Jan 3, 2016)

Ovinomancer said:


> View attachment 72785




Name one thing in that large paragraph that wasn't a fact.


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## Tonguez (Jan 3, 2016)

Maxperson said:


> Let's see...
> 
> Lucia Skywalker, sorry Rei Solo is sent to a desert planet as a child and raised there near a bunch of scavengers.  She comes across a droid fleeing the Empire, sorry the First Order and carrying plans that the Rebellion, sorry the Resistance needs desperately.  With the droid she meets Finn Solo, the reluctant hero and escaped with him from the the desert planet on the Millennium Falcon.  She has to escape the Empire, sorry First Order, but ends up captured and Finn Solo comes to her rescue.  She meets Darth Vader, sorry Darth Ren who serves the emperor who appeared by hologram....again.  "Darth Ren" is almost surely related to her somehow.  Rei, I am your brother/cousin!  There are a few scenes out of order.  The cantina scene happens after they leave the desert planet, but hey, nothing is perfect.    Meanwhile, the Empire, sorry the First Order uses the Death Star, sorry Death Planet to destroy Alderaan, sorry an entire system.  Then it turns the Death Star, sorry Death Planet against the Rebellion, sorry Resistance.  In a desperate bid to stay alive, an x-wing attack is launched at the Death Planet and the hot shot pilot even has a trench run at the small hole at the end to destroy the thing.
> 
> The only reason it wasn't a "remake" is that it wasn't called a remake.  Otherwise it was A New Hope all over again.




and thats what makes it brilliant. After talking to my nephews, I realised that a whole lot of people haven't seen the originals and aren't privvy to Star Wars geekdom, so really having TFA be a reboot that both titillates the fans (_thus compensating for the prequel-hate_) and reestablishes the mythology for a new generation (even to the point of retelling the story) was a wise move. 

the real test comes with the next episode, it needs to tell a new story without going the way of the prequels.


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## Maxperson (Jan 3, 2016)

Tonguez said:


> and thats what makes it brilliant. After talking to my nephews, I realised that a whole lot of people haven't seen the originals and aren't privvy to Star Wars geekdom, so really having TFA be a reboot that both titillates the fans (_thus compensating for the prequel-hate_) and reestablishes the mythology for a new generation (even to the point of retelling the story) was a wise move.
> 
> the real test comes with the next episode, it needs to tell a new story without going the way of the prequels.




I agree.  I thought it was brilliant that they did a remake without it being a REMAKE.  If they had announced it as a remake of A New Hope, there would have been riots.  As it was, it was a well done "remake" that provides a strong foundation for going off in new directions from here.


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## Eltab (Jan 4, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> our first glimpse of a more adult Anakin came during the movie where the romance was absolutely pivotal to the development of the characters and their motivations in the following film.



It did not help that the same (college-age?) Padme who befriended the cute little kid then proceeds to get a crush on his teenaged self.  Either there is a missing 'background comment' about Naboo-eans being gifted with extended life spans, or she has horrible taste in boyfriends (10 years her junior).  It would have helped the story if Anakin had gotten enmeshed with somebody equally young and inexperienced as he.


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## Maxperson (Jan 4, 2016)

Eltab said:


> It did not help that the same (college-age?) Padme who befriended the cute little kid then proceeds to get a crush on his teenaged self.  Either there is a missing 'background comment' about Naboo-eans being gifted with extended life spans, or she has horrible taste in boyfriends (10 years her junior).  It would have helped the story if Anakin had gotten enmeshed with somebody equally young and inexperienced as he.




I got a kick out of no one knowing that she had twins inside of her.  All that technology and Jedi power around her and nobody thought to check.

The only good parts of those movies were the Jedi fight scenes.


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## MechaPilot (Jan 4, 2016)

Eltab said:


> It did not help that the same (college-age?) Padme who befriended the cute little kid then proceeds to get a crush on his teenaged self.  Either there is a missing 'background comment' about Naboo-eans being gifted with extended life spans, or she has horrible taste in boyfriends (10 years her junior).  It would have helped the story if Anakin had gotten enmeshed with somebody equally young and inexperienced as he.




With her looking so close to her previous age I just chalked that up to whatever cosmetic surgery the Star Wars universe has.  She is a celebrity, at least on Naboo, and she's probably fairly wealthy.  It may be even be covered by whatever health plan Nubian royalty or galactic senators get.


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## MechaPilot (Jan 4, 2016)

Maxperson said:


> I got a kick out of no one knowing that she had twins inside of her.  All that technology and Jedi power around her and nobody thought to check.
> 
> The only good parts of those movies were the Jedi fight scenes.




Yeah, but to be fair the prequel jedi suck at sensing stuff.  Even Yoda can't detect the sith lord attending Qui Gon's funeral no more than thirty human paces away from him.


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## Water Bob (Jan 4, 2016)

Eltab said:


> It did not help that the same (college-age?) Padme who befriended the cute little kid then proceeds to get a crush on his teenaged self.  Either there is a missing 'background comment' about Naboo-eans being gifted with extended life spans, or she has horrible taste in boyfriends (10 years her junior).  It would have helped the story if Anakin had gotten enmeshed with somebody equally young and inexperienced as he.




Padme is supposed to be 13 years old when elected to the throne, according to the book.

She's supposed to be 23 in Attack of the Clones, when she is a Senator.


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## Maxperson (Jan 4, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> Yeah, but to be fair the prequel jedi suck at sensing stuff.  Even Yoda can't detect the sith lord attending Qui Gon's funeral no more than thirty human paces away from him.




Nah.  The dark side allowed him to hide himself.  It wasn't that the Jedi couldn't sense normal stuff just fine.


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## Ovinomancer (Jan 4, 2016)

Maxperson said:


> Name one thing in that large paragraph that wasn't a fact.






			
				maxperson said:
			
		

> The only reason it wasn't a "remake" is that it wasn't called a remake. Otherwise it was A New Hope all over again.




That's an opinion.  

Most of the rest was just you ignoring things that weren't the same and exaggerating the things that were similar.  It wasn't a remake.  Remakes tell the same story.  This told a different story, with many of the same pieces.  Hence a homage (at worst).  It's not even a reboot, as it keeps everything that's gone before (and, in fact, bases it's larger plot on those events).

Seriously, when you have characters from the original movies included as themselves, with their backstory 100% intact, it's really hard to call it a remake of an earlier film.  I get the need to express nerdrage, but lets have some perspective.


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## Tonguez (Jan 4, 2016)

Eltab said:


> It did not help that the same (college-age?) Padme who befriended the cute little kid then proceeds to get a crush on his teenaged self.  Either there is a missing 'background comment' about Naboo-eans being gifted with extended life spans, or she has horrible taste in boyfriends (10 years her junior).  It would have helped the story if Anakin had gotten enmeshed with somebody equally young and inexperienced as he.






Water Bob said:


> Padme is supposed to be 13 years old when elected to the throne, according to the book.
> 
> She's supposed to be 23 in Attack of the Clones, when she is a Senator.




yeah theres only a 5 yeah age-gap, in Phantom Menace he's 9 and she's 14. So if Padme is 23 in Attack of the Clones then Anakin is 18/19 - which is pretty much meh as an age gap, he just likes his ladies mature...


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## Maxperson (Jan 4, 2016)

Ovinomancer said:


> That's an opinion.
> 
> Most of the rest was just you ignoring things that weren't the same and exaggerating the things that were similar.  It wasn't a remake.  Remakes tell the same story.  This told a different story, with many of the same pieces.  Hence a homage (at worst).  It's not even a reboot, as it keeps everything that's gone before (and, in fact, bases it's larger plot on those events).




I said "Name one thing in that large paragraph that wasn't a fact."  The second little paragraph wasn't included.

Those facts in the main paragraph show beyond a doubt that it was a "remake."  When 95%+ of the story is identical to another movie.  It's a remake.  You can cover your eyes and yell lalalalala all you like, but it's not going to make Episode VII a new movie.  Hell, Scrooged changed more about the Scrooge story than Episode VII did the A New Hope story.



> Seriously, when you have characters from the original movies included as themselves, with their backstory 100% intact, it's really hard to call it a remake of an earlier film.




Not really.  There were a very, very few scenes outside of the standard A New Hope scenes.  When you do a remake, you change some things.  The inclusion of those older characters is nothing more than a slight change to the story.  Slight changes =/= a new movie.


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## Ovinomancer (Jan 4, 2016)

Maxperson said:


> I said "Name one thing in that large paragraph that wasn't a fact."  The second little paragraph wasn't included.



Your point?  


> Those facts in the main paragraph show beyond a doubt that it was a "remake."  When 95%+ of the story is identical to another movie.  It's a remake.  You can cover your eyes and yell lalalalala all you like, but it's not going to make Episode VII a new movie.  Hell, Scrooged changed more about the Scrooge story than Episode VII did the A New Hope story.
> 
> Let's see...




Fine, I'll fisk it.


> Lucia Skywalker, sorry Rei Solo is sent to a desert planet as a child and raised there near a bunch of scavengers.



The first two things here, the names, are opinion.  There's zero fact in your choice of appellation.  Secondly, none of this is a retread of ANH except the desert planet and being sent there as a child.  Rei has a vastly different childhood than Luke.


> She comes across a droid fleeing the Empire, sorry the First Order and carrying plans that the Rebellion, sorry the Resistance needs desperately.



The 1st Order needs them as well.  This is different as well, as both sides are racing to the same place, whereas in ANH, the Rebels are trying to get the plans and the Empire is trying to recover them.



> With the droid she meets Finn Solo, the reluctant hero and escaped with him from the the desert planet on the Millennium Falcon.



You totally ignored all of Finn's story here, which is entirely unique.  Also the bit where they had to fight their way off, which is, again, very different from ANH where they just hid and ran.


> She has to escape the Empire, sorry First Order, but ends up captured and Finn Solo comes to her rescue.



Finn Solo is an opinion.  You also ignore that Rei isn't remotely at all like Leia.  Also, Rei does a good job of escaping on her own, so it's very much NOT like the rescue scene in ANH.



> She meets Darth Vader, sorry Darth Ren who serves the emperor who appeared by hologram....again.



The Emperor never appears to Vader in ANH.

Also, almost everyone in the movie meets Ren, very much unlike Vader who only ever met Obi-wan.  



> "Darth Ren" is almost surely related to her somehow. Rei, I am your brother/cousin!




Complete opinion.



> There are a few scenes out of order. The cantina scene happens after they leave the desert planet, but hey, nothing is perfect.




The cantina scene is also very different.  It's not menacing like in ANH, it's a welcoming place where the heroes find assistance.



> Meanwhile, the Empire, sorry the First Order uses the Death Star, sorry Death Planet to destroy Alderaan, sorry an entire system. Then it turns the Death Star, sorry Death Planet against the Rebellion, sorry Resistance. In a desperate bid to stay alive, an x-wing attack is launched at the Death Planet and the hot shot pilot even has a trench run at the small hole at the end to destroy the thing.



Yup, those happened, but so did a bunch of other things you left out.  Like the lightsaber fight between Finn and Rei and Kylo -- something that has no equal in ANH (or any other original trilogy movie, as there are exactly three lightsaber duels in all three movies).

So, yeah, opinion and exaggeration alongside purposefully ignoring the glaring differences.  Did the movie borrow a bunch of stage dressing and even plot elements?  Yes, it clearly did.  That doesn't a remake make.




> Not really.  There were a very, very few scenes outside of the standard A New Hope scenes.  When you do a remake, you change some things.  The inclusion of those older characters is nothing more than a slight change to the story.  Slight changes =/= a new movie.



Huh, so Han's interactions weren't very different from ANH, so long as he's Han it's the same movie?  Dude, I can't even.


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## Maxperson (Jan 4, 2016)

Ovinomancer said:


> Your point?




The point was, if you're going to quote something, pay attention to what you quote so you don't get it so incredibly wrong.



> The first two things here, the names, are opinion.  There's zero fact in your choice of appellation.  Secondly, none of this is a retread of ANH except the desert planet and being sent there as a child.  Rei has a vastly different childhood than Luke.




Wrong.  You probably saw some alternate reality A New Hope.  The one I saw show Luke's childhood, just like this one didn't show Rei's.  They both went as children and we saw both as young adults.  They are equivalent characters in the story.  You are also factually wrong that those two things are the "only" retread of A New Hope.  Reluctant hero helping Rei off the planet = re-tread.  Acquiring a droid containing valuable plans to the "rebellion" = re-tread.  Scavengers wanting the droid = re-tread.  The "empire" coming to look for the droid = re-tread.  



> The 1st Order needs them as well.  This is different as well, as both sides are racing to the same place, whereas in ANH, the Rebels are trying to get the plans and the Empire is trying to recover them.




Same difference.  Slight changes don't prevent it from being a remake.  That's what remakes are all about.  Making slight changes to a story to tell the same story with a slightly different twist.



> You totally ignored all of Finn's story here, which is entirely unique.  Also the bit where they had to fight their way off, which is, again, very different from ANH where they just hid and ran.




Finn's "unique" story is irrelevant.  He's the reluctant hero with feelings for another protagonist.  Hell, he even left her behind and then came back...................just like Han Solo.  His "uniqueness" is just more of that slightly different twist you see with remakes.



> Finn Solo is an opinion.  You also ignore that Rei isn't remotely at all like Leia.  Also, Rei does a good job of escaping on her own, so it's very much NOT like the rescue scene in ANH.




LOL  Finn Solo was just to show what the equivalent character is in A New Hope.



> The Emperor never appears to Vader in ANH.




Okay.  You got me on one thing.  You're still being willfully blind to the virtually copy of A New Hope that the movie really is.



> Also, almost everyone in the movie meets Ren, very much unlike Vader who only ever met Obi-wan.




Funny.  I remember Vader meeting Leia.  



> The cantina scene is also very different.  It's not menacing like in ANH, it's a welcoming place where the heroes find assistance.




All of these "differences" you bring up prove one thing.   You don't understand what a remake is.  It's not an identical clone of the original movie, in case you wanted to know.



> Yup, those happened, but so did a bunch of other things you left out.  Like the lightsaber fight between Finn and Rei and Kylo -- something that has no equal in ANH (or any other original trilogy movie, as there are exactly three lightsaber duels in all three movies).




I didn't say the remake was identical.  Remakes have some differences.  They always do.  They're still remakes.


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## MarkB (Jan 4, 2016)

Maxperson said:


> I didn't say the remake was identical.  Remakes have some differences.  They always do.  They're still remakes.




Homages have many similarities. They always do. They're still not remakes.


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## dd.stevenson (Jan 4, 2016)

I like them for what they taught me about George Lucas, and by extension, the importance of respecting every step in the creative process.


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## Ovinomancer (Jan 4, 2016)

Maxperson said:


> The point was, if you're going to quote something, pay attention to what you quote so you don't get it so incredibly wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yup, and that's your opinion.  You quote 'facts' but they're really your interpretations and assumptions.  You've chosen to highlight things that support your argument while dismissing everything else as minor changes that don't affect your opinion.  That's a nice opinion, but you thinking it doesn't make it fact. 

TFA has it's own story elements.  It tells a similar, but ultimately different story.  It doesn't overwrite or ignore the previous stories it borrows from, and instead weaves those original stories into it's own via callbacks and borrowing plot elements.  It's a classic example of myth building, including having the same story cycles and references.  This is, again, classic storytelling examples -- by grounding the new adventures so firmly in the trappings of the known stories, they get immediate buy-in and understanding of the material, and can now move in a new direction after making sure that everyone knows this is in the same world as the original.  For it to be a remake, it couldn't do any of that -- it would have to be a retelling of the original story which it's clearly not, even if it borrows many of the older stories clothes.


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## Vagabond234 (Jan 5, 2016)

Just the Jedi fights for me.  I guess the backstory cleared things up a bit but the acting...yuck.


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## billd91 (Jan 5, 2016)

1 and 2) Darth Maul and Qui-Gon Jin, the only two interesting characters in the prequels
3) the lightsaber duel in Phantom Menace
4) the introduction of new but still relatively minor Jedi abilities in Phantom Menace
5) as boringly as a lot of it was written (with a lot of exposition), the idea of the Republic crumbling under political infighting over relatively minor things like tariffs and a bureaucracy out of control was interesting - it wasn't so much going out with a bang as much as it was dying without enough in common to hold it together.

And, for me, that's about it. The lightsaber dueling peaked with Phantom Menace, becoming increasingly Star Porny as far as I was concerned. Jedi abilities just got more sillier as Lucas kept trying to top himself. Anakin just got whinier without really showing us why. The Jedi seemed to get dumber all the time. Characterizations were really mixed up (if Obi-Wan is always getting on Anakin's case about being to impulsive, why is it Obi-Wan that leaps through the window to grab the assassin's droid?). Believe it or not, even with the too long pod race, Anakin showing up Luke with virtually everything he does, and the extremely annoying Jar Jar, I actually like the Phantom Menace a little better than the rest of the prequels.


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