# Monks in Pathfinder 2: Fighting Styles & Ki



## David MacGillivray (Jun 20, 2018)

The ability to choose between strength or dexterity could be an interesting change. Can't wait to start a new 2e campaign.


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## Henry (Jun 20, 2018)

Some of the changes I’m not happy with (deflect arrows for one) but I am interested in the new take on monks. Right now the consensus on the Paizo forums seems pretty split, and there is worry that again, as in the early days of PF1, AC and offenses will not be strong enough for the monk to survive in close combat.


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## Sunseeker (Jun 20, 2018)

This is pretty much the Monk that exists in 3.5/Pathfinder, but worse.  That Flurry of Blows penalty, OUCH!  

5E may need to tweak the Ki point progression for the Elementalist, but fundamentally: 5E got the Monk right, above and beyond any other edition ever has.

What I'm reading here doesn't really feel like the Monk has gotten improved, just broken down into it's parts and had them renamed.  If I want to play the 3.X Monk...I won't.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 20, 2018)

I imagine ki powers or skills (for Pahtfinder or D&D) like the martial maneuvers like the ones from "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords" or "Path of War" by Dreamscarred Press. I miss martial adept archetypes for "oriental" classes (monk, ninja, samurai, sohei..).


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## Jhaelen (Jun 20, 2018)

Sunseeker said:


> This is pretty much the Monk that exists in 3.5/Pathfinder, but worse.



Yep. Given how 13th Age re-imagined the monk this is rather disappointing.


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## Aguirre Melchiors (Jun 20, 2018)

the only thing i dont like in pathfinder 2 is the bunch of litle modifiers.


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## Ghal Maraz (Jun 20, 2018)

Personal opinions (on the flavour of the class) aside, how's that "worse" than the 3.X Monk?


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## Jacob Lewis (Jun 20, 2018)

I wonder if we'll see the return of prestige classes again? With so many options baked into the base classes already, they may ether redefine how they work or skip over them entirely. 

Speaking of options, that seems to be a recurring theme that I have seen in these previews. The players have more options not only in building character classes and racial options, but also during play. Use an action to empower a spell, raise a shield, or two actions to activate another ability? This is definitely the advanced game. I anxiously await the release to see how it all comes together!


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## Sunseeker (Jun 20, 2018)

Ghal Maraz said:


> Personal opinions (on the flavour of the class) aside, how's that "worse" than the 3.X Monk?




The flurry of blows penalty for one.
And the removal of Wis to AC, but keeping the "no armor proficiency".

Because nothing else in it is new, therefore if the only prominent changes are nerfs, it is worse.


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## Ghal Maraz (Jun 20, 2018)

Context is your friend, here. A typical (?) 25-points-buy PF1 Monk (human) probably has STR 16, DEX 14, WIS 16 (CON 14, INT 12, CAR 8?).

So, at Level 1: to hit +3 (BAB is 0), Flurry at +1/+1, AC 15. He can flurry only if he stands still and full attack. 

A PF2 STR-based Monk is looking to get STR 18, DEX 16. So: to hit +5 (as he's proficient with unarmed attacks, he gets a [Level+0] modifier on top of the characteristic modifier); Flurry at +5/+1; AC 15 (+3 DEX, +1 Level, +1 Expert proficiency Unarmoured). He can move twice and Flurry; or he can move once, Flurry and Strike; or he can stand still, Flurry and Strike twice. Perhaps better yet, he can move, Flurry and move again (to get out of combat).

He's more mobile and not MAD as before.


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## Jer (Jun 20, 2018)

Ghal Maraz said:


> Context is your friend, here.
> ...
> He's more mobile and not MAD as before.




Context does help - those are some interesting points.  With the new action economy in Pathfinder 2 that's being proposed, is it possible that the monk also just stand still and Flurry 3 times - for 6 attacks in a single round? 

That may explain the hefty -4 penalty on Flurry.  If a monk can typically move into combat and immediately make 4 attacks on a target, the -4 penalty sounds like a lot less of a penalty than before.  

When I initially read it I was thinking that a -4 penalty is really severe - because AC and attacks are scaling with level that's basically hitting like you are 4 levels lower than you are.  In 13th Age (which also scales like that with level) that's a pretty severe penalty.  But if you're making 4 attacks in a round, that penalty might not be so severe.  (I assume that there's some penalty on a second attack action in a round from what I've read - I don't know what it is but my gut assumes it's -2, so that would mean that the monk with a +5 bonus to attack would be hitting with +5/+1/+3/-1 on four attacks with Flurry.  -4 still seems steep, but not as steep as I thought).


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## Ghal Maraz (Jun 20, 2018)

No. A Monk can only Flurry once per round (we don't know if there are later levels' Feat that improve on this).

The other attacks  ("Strike" action) suffer all from a bigger malus too, being at -8. But you have to remember that those attacks, while probably hitting less, are possible from Level 1 onwards, so it shouldn't sound strange that they won't hit so often.


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## Shasarak (Jun 20, 2018)

Ghal Maraz said:


> No. A Monk can only Flurry once per round (we don't know if there are later levels' Feat that improve on this).




Is it actually different to what Morrus posted in the OP?


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## Ghal Maraz (Jun 20, 2018)

Nope. It's the same. Its just that Morrus hasn't specified the only one per round thing about Flurries.


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## mewzard (Jun 20, 2018)

Worth a note on the subject of AC and Attacks. When it comes to AC, Mark Seifter commented on how the Monk holds up:

"That and starting with expert proficiency in unarmored defense is much faster than any other class in the game (even paladin) gets expert armor proficiency, and you're in a situation where Logan was right about the monk effectively wearing a no-restrictions chain shirt, assuming you have either bracers or a solid mage armor (which now lasts 24 hours). In fact, a full-on Dex-based monk will very eventually hit a point where they can equal even a full plate paladin, all while not having any of the restrictions of heavy armor, which is pretty incredible."

Sounds like Monks will be fine AC wise.

As for Attacks, normally attacks work at a +0/-5/-10 rate. Any additional attacks beyond that stick to the -10. Since a Monk's unarmed strike is Agile, it's instead +0/-4/-8 with any additional attacks at a -8.

On the subject of Flurry of Blows, as far as I'm aware, it takes a penalty, but only as normal for multiple attacks. The Flurry should either be (+0/-4), (-4/-8) or (-8/-8) depending upon when you use it in your number of attacks. As I read it, you don't start with a -4 penalty on your first attack, but it follows the multiple attack penalty. So if you start with it, it functions like two attack actions would normally in one action, but if it's not first, then the first attack in flurry will get penalized, since it's a later attack.


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## Koloth (Jun 21, 2018)

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see if a PF2 Monk's unarmed damaged improves with levels like the 3.5/PF1 monk's does.  Never saw much advantage to Str in a 3.5/PF1 monk due to the fairly quick improvements in unarmed damage as levels increased.  Found it better to work on Dex and Wis for the BAB increases(assuming Weapon Finesse Unarmed feat) and AC stat bonus stacking.  Str is only useful for improving load carrying before becoming encumbered and losing much of your speed bonus.  What I found was the PF1 monk fell behind in BAB and sometimes can't compete with the other melee classes.  If you can't hit, you can't damage.


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## mellored (Jun 21, 2018)

As best as I can tell, the multi-attack penalty stack (0/-4/-8)
Meaning there is no good reason to stand still and swing a bunch of times, and instead should use that last action to move, raise a shield, or whatever else. 

Flurry of blows lets you attack twice, and still have 2 actions to move twice.


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## mewzard (Jun 21, 2018)

Koloth said:


> Maybe I missed it but I didn't see if a PF2 Monk's unarmed damaged improves with levels like the 3.5/PF1 monk's does.  Never saw much advantage to Str in a 3.5/PF1 monk due to the fairly quick improvements in unarmed damage as levels increased.  Found it better to work on Dex and Wis for the BAB increases(assuming Weapon Finesse Unarmed feat) and AC stat bonus stacking.  Str is only useful for improving load carrying before becoming encumbered and losing much of your speed bonus.  What I found was the PF1 monk fell behind in BAB and sometimes can't compete with the other melee classes.  If you can't hit, you can't damage.




Well, remember that any +X enhancements to weapons improve their damage dice, not the modifier.

So your item for boosting unarmed damage (I want to say the forums have been calling it Handwraps of Mighty Fists) would raise your unarmed damage dice. So a +5 would make it, say, 6d6 or whatever dice you end up using. Say you use the Dragon Style, and it's 6d10 instead of the 6d6.


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## Koloth (Jun 22, 2018)

mewzard said:


> Well, remember that any +X enhancements to weapons improve their damage dice, not the modifier.
> 
> So your item for boosting unarmed damage (I want to say the forums have been calling it Handwraps of Mighty Fists) would raise your unarmed damage dice. So a +5 would make it, say, 6d6 or whatever dice you end up using. Say you use the Dragon Style, and it's 6d10 instead of the 6d6.




Wasn't really worried about item enhancements.  A 1st lvl PF1 monk does 1d6 unarmed.  At 4th lvl, that goes to 1d8 and 1d10 at 8th.  Oddly, this made the special monk weapons mostly pointless as they capped at 1d6.  Saw no mention in this write up or the Paizo blog on any damage progression by level. 

Wonder if the PF2 monk will have the same issues with unarmed damage vs monk weapon damage?


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## mewzard (Jun 22, 2018)

Koloth said:


> Wasn't really worried about item enhancements.  A 1st lvl PF1 monk does 1d6 unarmed.  At 4th lvl, that goes to 1d8 and 1d10 at 8th.  Oddly, this made the special monk weapons mostly pointless as they capped at 1d6.  Saw no mention in this write up or the Paizo blog on any damage progression by level.
> 
> Wonder if the PF2 monk will have the same issues with unarmed damage vs monk weapon damage?




Well, given style feats change your unarmed attack properties, including what damage dice they do, they might not need to give them that kind of progression.

Also, with how they made Greatswords 1d12 instead of 2d6, I think they were trying to remove multiple dice on regular, non +X weapons, so everyone adds the same number of dice for the same number of plusses. Meaning, even if they did keep progression, I doubt it'd go above 1d12 (and probably not even that high, like a 1d8 or a 1d10).

I suppose that could make Monk Weapons more valuable (only costs you a feat to use them and they work with your monk abilities). Though style feats can give you options for hand to hand characters.


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## SuperSam888 (Jun 22, 2018)

I'm liking the 2e Monk so far. Very nice.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jun 23, 2018)

Morrus said:


> [*]No Wis bonus to AC
> [*]Expert proficiency in unarmored defense at 1st level, master at 13th, legendary at 17th




I am happy to see this, but I hope it's not the dawn of the 14 or 15 AC monk at 1st-level. I am playing a brawler right now. My starting AC was 17 (Dex and chain shirt), which is generally higher than a rogue, roughly equal to a ranger and lower than a fighter, so it felt right. I doubt a starting monk gets +4 to AC, however. This looks like monks will start with horribly low AC and (possibly) end up with untouchable ACs at high levels, and I'm more interested in generally balanced ACs across the whole game.



> [*]_Flurry of Blows_ (1st level)  makes two attacks with an unarmed attack action (second at -4)




I hope that's not a -4 penalty on one of those attacks at 1st-level. You will miss a lot. Furthermore you can't even roll both d20s at the same time since their bonuses won't match.



> [*]Flying Kick uses two actions to jump and strike




As a fan of the d20 Modern Martial Artist, I always like Flying Kick. Being able to charge 80 feet* and kick someone was pretty cool (using acrobatic skills to laugh at terrain obstacles in the meantime); that was critical to not getting shot 

*It could have been 90 feet, had I taken two more Fast levels.



> [*]Crane Flutter is a reaction which increases AC against a melee attack and allows an immediate counter attack at -4




A reaction attack is powerful enough (and why at -4?). We don't really need a remake of the controversial Crane's Wing. I think both the AC increase and attack penalty can go away. It could be a stance competing with other cool monk abilities.



> [*]Ki Blast is a cone of force




That should be a ball or beam for, um, balance reasons. Yeah. 

What is the BAB? Can you ever move and flurry in the same round?


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## mellored (Jun 23, 2018)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:


> What is the BAB?



Stat + training + level.
Untrained (-2)
Trained (+0)
Expert (+1)
Master (+2)
Legendary (+3)

It seems to be the same for everyone.  And being "expert" or "legendary" is more about giving you more feat options rather than bigger bonuses.



> Can you ever move and flurry in the same round?



Yes.

You get 3 actions, and 1 reaction.
Attacking is 1 action.  With -5 (-4 for monks) penalties for each extra attack on the same turn.  (so 0/-4/-8)
Moving and such is 1 action.
Most spells take 2 actions, but it varies.

Flurry of blows is 1 action to attack twice (0/-4), and you still have 2 actions to do other stuff, like moving, quivering palm, or a ki blast.   Or just attack 4 times, but with the scaling penalties (0/-4/-8/-12) your encouraged to do other things.


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## mewzard (Jun 23, 2018)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:


> I am happy to see this, but I hope it's not the dawn of the 14 or 15 AC monk at 1st-level. I am playing a brawler right now. My starting AC was 17 (Dex and chain shirt), which is generally higher than a rogue, roughly equal to a ranger and lower than a fighter, so it felt right. I doubt a starting monk gets +4 to AC, however. This looks like monks will start with horribly low AC and (possibly) end up with untouchable ACs at high levels, and I'm more interested in generally balanced ACs across the whole game.
> 
> I hope that's not a -4 penalty on one of those attacks at 1st-level. You will miss a lot. Furthermore you can't even roll both d20s at the same time since their bonuses won't match.
> 
> ...




Well, AC's formula should be 10+Proficiency Mod+Dex+Level, so your starting AC could be as high as 16 with a Monk given you can get one starting stat to 18 (10+1+4+1). Given Monks are the only class to start as Experts in their armor type (Unarmored), and both it and Paladins are the two classes that reach legendary proficiencies in their respective armor types by default, expect a Monk to be able to be decently tanky.

Every attack you make drops a bit until you hit your third attack. +0/-5/-10 for normal, +0/-4/-8 for agile like a Monk's unarmed strike. After that, any additional attacks you can make will be at that -8. I remember reading there was a two-weapon feat that let you roll your second weapon's attack without penalty, but the third attack would still be -8. I also know that backswing weapons give you a boost to your secondary attack if you miss the first one. But yeah, otherwise, attacks differ.

Monk Mobility is always nice.

A small price to pay for yet another attack.

Always down for a Kamehameha.

There is no BAB anymore, all classes add their level to their attack. Proficiency mod as well (-2 for Untrained, +0 for Trained, +1 for Expert, +2 for Master, and +3 for Legendary)

There are no more full round actions. You get three actions and a reaction to do with as you are able. Move, Attack, Attack...Move, Attack (Flurry would get you two attacks), Move...Attack Attack, Attack, etc. Of course, you could always get Hasted for one extra Move or Attack. There are several different Quicken abilities to get an extra action, and each one differs on what actions it grants. Monks can eventually get Enduring Quickness, which is one permanent action for striding or leaping, and can be used as one of the two actions for a Long or High Jump.

Meanwhile, there's things that can cause slowed, which reduce your actions when you are hit with them (Slowed 1 removes 1 action, Slowed 2 removes 2, etc).

But yeah, Move and Flurry is allowed. You can absolutely move in, flurry, and get out.



mellored said:


> Flurry of blows is 1 action to attack twice  (0/-4), and you still have 2 actions to do other stuff, like moving,  quivering palm, or a ki blast.   Or just attack 4 times, but with the  scaling penalties (0/-4/-8/-12) your encouraged to do other  things.




Actually, the penalty for attacks peaks at either -10 or -8, they've specifically stated it doesn't go lower.


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## mellored (Jun 23, 2018)

mewzard said:


> Actually, the penalty for attacks peaks at either -10 or -8, they've specifically stated it doesn't go lower.



I missed that.

But still, -8 is a big enough penalty that it still means most people will do something besides spending all their actions to attack.  Unless your fighting low-level monsters.
And the monk effectively has an extra action.


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## Kurviak (Jun 23, 2018)

mellored said:


> Stat + training + level.
> Untrained (-2)
> Trained (+0)
> Expert (+1)
> ...




-8 is the limit, so it’s 0 -4 -8 -8


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## CapnZapp (Jun 23, 2018)

One of the great improvements of 5E that you tend to forget about is doing away with useless third and fourth attacks.

I guess we need PF to remind us of exactly how great 5E is in actually fixing 3E's issues.


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## Kurviak (Jun 23, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> One of the great improvements of 5E that you tend to forget about is doing away with useless third and fourth attacks.
> 
> I guess we need PF to remind us of exactly how great 5E is in actually fixing 3E's issues.




PF2 is not focused on pleasing people who loves 5e, it’s focused on making the best version of PF they can at this moment. If you love 5e keep playing it, it’s a great game. But I don’t like 5e that much so I’m very eager to see and gm PF2’s playtest


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## Sunseeker (Jun 23, 2018)

Kurviak said:


> PF2 is not focused on pleasing people who loves 5e, it’s focused on making the best version of PF they can at this moment. If you love 5e keep playing it, it’s a great game. But I don’t like 5e that much so I’m very eager to see and gm PF2’s playtest




Even as a Pathfinder lover, I have to generally agree that iterative attacks are only so valuable as something every class has access to.  For specific builds, like the two-weapon fighter who can get 16 attacks in a turn and the lowest will only be like, a -10, yeah, iterative attacks can be fun and useful.  But in those cases, long trains of iterative attacks really should be class features, rather than a base part of the system.

I think 5E really got this right, in that some classes (like Barbarians and Paladins) only get one Extra Attack, and Fighters get four.  It's no longer a penalty for a Fighter to take all their attacks because _that's their thing_.  In the same sense that Wizards don't take a penalty for casting a 5d6 Fireball.

The same is true for the 5E Monk.

PF2 may be trying to "build a better PF1", but I think they're missing something by not recognizing that Striking multiple times in a round is the only way some classes have to keep up, and therefore shouldn't be penalized for it.


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## mellored (Jun 24, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> One of the great improvements of 5E that you tend to forget about is doing away with useless third and fourth attacks.
> 
> I guess we need PF to remind us of exactly how great 5E is in actually fixing 3E's issues.



You wouldn't make useless 3rd and 4th attacks in PF2.

You'd use those other actions to do other things, like move.


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## Aldarc (Jun 25, 2018)

mellored said:


> You wouldn't make useless 3rd and 4th attacks in PF2.
> 
> You'd use those other actions to do other things, like move.



Shhhh... let the guy constantly complaining about balance problems in 5e talk about how great 5e is in fixing balance.


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## rmcoen (Jun 25, 2018)

So the PF2 Monk's first round is going to be "Move in, Flurry 0 and Flurry -4, Move out", with increased speed.  Opponent, assuming no ranged attack will have to "Move, Move, Attack" -- Monk moves 40, remember?  Monk's second and subsequent rounds can be "Flurry 0 and Flurry -4, Strike -8, Move", or "Cool 2-action thing, Move".  Opponent will have to keep double-moving to catch the faster monk, who will keep double-attacking....

However... I'd rather be making a single d12 greatsword attack at full bonus than a d6 attack at full and a d6 attack at -4, wouldn't you?  Monkie is a hornet... stings a lot, but one good swipe, and the irritation is gone.


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## Emerikol (Jul 2, 2018)

I have to admit that I've never seen a monk I've liked mechanically that I also thought had a good flavor.  My group really doesn't play monks much.  I did have one player.   This monk though really sounds interesting.  I could see it getting played.


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