# Could Wolverine kill Superman?



## Bullgrit (Jul 7, 2011)

Yeah, I know Wolverine and Supes are from two different comic universes, but still, hypothetically, could Wolverine's adamantium claws cut/stab Superman?

Which would win in a battle: USS Enterprise 1701-D or the Executor Super Stardestroyer?

Who would win in a fight: Robocop or Terminator?

Bullgrit


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## Alan Shutko (Jul 7, 2011)

> Which would win in a battle: USS Enterprise 1701-D or the Executor Super Stardestroyer?




All is answered at StarDestroyer.Net: Dedicated to the Mighty Imperial Star Destroyer! !


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## Umbran (Jul 7, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> Yeah, I know Wolverine and Supes are from two different comic universes, but still, hypothetically, could Wolverine's adamantium claws cut/stab Superman?




Nope.  Adamantium is an indestructible alloy, not an infinitely sharp one.

The better question would be if Superman could break one of Wolverine's bones.



> Which would win in a battle: USS Enterprise 1701-D or the Executor Super Stardestroyer?




I always thought that one was simple - Star Trek ships are capable of FTL travel while within normal space, while Star Wars ships are not.  The "Picard Manuver" would allow a trek ship to eventually make mincemeat out of anything moving at sublight speeds.


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## RangerWickett (Jul 7, 2011)

Wolverine could kill Robo-Cop and the Terminator.

Superman could kill the Enterprise and a Star Destroyer.

Raistlin could beat them all.

Drizzt would get his butt kicked by any of them.


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## Morrus (Jul 7, 2011)

Superman could dump Wolverine in deep space or the like.  It might not kill him, but it would certainly defeat him.


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## wolff96 (Jul 7, 2011)

I really all of these are matters of opinion, but I can't resist offering mine...



Bullgrit said:


> Yeah, I know Wolverine and Supes are from two different comic universes, but still, hypothetically, could Wolverine's adamantium claws cut/stab Superman?




Unless he gets his hands on some kryptonite, no.  Really, all the Big S is vulnerable to is Kryptonite, Red Sunlight of a particular wavelength, and magic.  Of course, there's little that he could do to Wolverine that would last, either.  Dump him in space, or a star, or possibly melt his bones with heat vision, maybe?



> Which would win in a battle: USS Enterprise 1701-D or the Executor Super Stardestroyer?




Ah, the age-old question.  I'd really give the nod (over time) to the Star Wars ships, simply due to scale.  They massively out-gun and out-weigh the Star Trek ships.  Shields and such aside...  just how much Ion Cannon fire could a ST ship really take?  Granted, it would be an interesting fight to see, as I think lots of damage would be done to the SW ships, but they're just so large and system redundant that they'd eventually win.  Not to mention all the fighters they carry...



> Who would win in a fight: Robocop or Terminator?




The Governator.


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 7, 2011)

The question can superman kill an army of Wolverines?

Using science!  and his feral detective skills, James Howlet Waynes (DarkClaw) theoretically could have discovered that a "Superman" was going to set off a series of crisises that would rewrite the multiverse and erase his own existance by destroying Earth Amalgam. 

With this knowledge, DarkCraw decides to form X-Force which consists of multiple alternate versions of himself including: 
1. Darkclaw
2. Apocalypse (AoA wolverine after he ascends.. assuming the upcoming X-Force cover is factual)
3. Ultimate Cable
4. Earth 616 Wolverine
5. X-Men movie Wolverine
6. A theoretical Wolvernine whose skeliton is made of magical metal.
7. A theoretical Wolverine whose skeliton is made of kryptonite.
8. Deathlok Wolverine
9. Techno Organic Wolverine
10. Zombie Wolverine.
 11. James the Wolverine (aka Wolverine from the Disney Universe)
12. J How-eL (Kyrptonian Wolverine)
13. Anime Wolverine
14. Earth Prime Wolverine (On Earth Prime Jame Howlett plays for UM's Ice Hockey team.)
15. A wolverine (the animal)


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## Ed_Laprade (Jul 7, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> Yeah, I know Wolverine and Supes are from two different comic universes, but still, hypothetically, could Wolverine's adamantium claws cut/stab Superman?
> 
> Which would win in a battle: USS Enterprise 1701-D or the Executor Super Stardestroyer?
> 
> ...



Depends on which Superman. The original? Easily. The 50s planet toting Supes? No way. Others? Your guess is as good as anyone else's.

Depends on who's writting the battle scene!

The last one, at least, is easy. The Terminator, no contest.


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## drothgery (Jul 7, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> Yeah, I know Wolverine and Supes are from two different comic universes, but still, hypothetically, could Wolverine's adamantium claws cut/stab Superman?



 Probably not; they're neither kyrptonite nor magic, so odds are supes wins this one.



Bullgrit said:


> Which would win in a battle: USS Enterprise 1701-D or the Executor Super Stardestroyer?



If for some reason Picard and Vader were determined to fight to the death, the Enterprise wins because it can Picard Maneuver (maneuver at warp, fire, go back to warp) the Star Destroyer to death all day and there's nothing it can do about it. However, the Star Destroyer can escape to hyperspace easily, so the most likely outcome is the Enterprise gets a few licks in and then the Star Destroyer runs away (stardestroyer.net is ridiculous).



Bullgrit said:


> Who would win in a fight: Robocop or Terminator?



 Terminator. And we'll make it Summer Glau's Cameron just because it's fun.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 8, 2011)

Umbran said:


> The "Picard Manuver" would allow a trek ship to eventually make mincemeat out of anything moving at sublight speeds.






drothgery said:


> the Enterprise wins because it can Picard Maneuver (maneuver at warp, fire, go back to warp) the Star Destroyer to death all day and there's nothing it can do about it.




The "Picard Maneuver" is one of those classic trekisms which always bother me intensely. In one episode it is revealed that Picard came up with a maneuver which had no known defence... which never gets used. Ever.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 8, 2011)

Plus, the whole point of the picard maneuver was that the defending vessel didn't know which image to target. What's to say that an Executor can't just target both images thoroughly anyway?


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## drothgery (Jul 8, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> Plus, the whole point of the picard maneuver was that the defending vessel didn't know which image to target. What's to say that an Executor can't just target both images thoroughly anyway?



The point is that the Executor's sensors are slower than light, and the Enterprise (in setting up a Picard Maneuver) is faster than light (or if you don't like tight timing and close range shots, you just circle the star destroyer on a slightly randomized course at warp and fire off photon torpedoes all day). It's much easier to transition from warp / normal space in Star Trek than form hyperspace / normal space in Star Wars, and there are ways to affect normal space from warp, while there are not ways to affect normal space from hyperspace.


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 8, 2011)

*COUGH* 

Darth Vader's Player: "I use the force to determine where the enterprise will appear in 10 seconds."
Darth Vader: "Concentrate all fire at coordinate 40.300.50 NOW!!"

Solution:  Light Speed vs the Force.  The force is detected faster then light.  Therefore anyone battling a Jedi or Sith controlled Star Destroyer will loose using the Picard Maneuver*.

*Note: I'm not even mentioning the fact that Star Wars is BILLIONS of years into the future, meaning their tech should be "magical" compaired to the 25th century.  Also remember, the Data Defense (detecting gas compression/dispersion caused by the Ship's change in location and then locking on it with your tractor/repulsor beams and going to town) is a valid solution to the Picard Maneuver.


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## Rune (Jul 8, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> The "Picard Maneuver" is one of those classic trekisms which always bother me intensely. In one episode it is revealed that Picard came up with a maneuver which had no known defence... which never gets used. Ever.




One thing that bothers me about the maneuver is that the timing that would be required to pop in and out of warp so quickly would be impossible for humans to achieve.  Data could do it (probably) but he certainly wasn't aboard the Stargazer when the maneuver was first conceived.


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## Umbran (Jul 8, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> The "Picard Maneuver" is one of those classic trekisms which always bother me intensely. In one episode it is revealed that Picard came up with a maneuver which had no known defence... which never gets used. Ever.




Well, it gets used in one episode - the one in which it is mentioned.

It doesn't get used at other times because it won't work on most ships in the Trek Universe.  Subspace sensors defeat the maneuver, and Star Wars ships don't have them, because they don't use subspace.





drothgery said:


> (or if you don't like tight timing and close range shots, you just circle the star destroyer on a slightly randomized course at warp and fire off photon torpedoes all day).




That is an important point that in my haste I forgot - phasers only work if the firing ship drops out of warp.  But, photon torpedoes (and quantum torpedoes, though those aren't part of the Enterprise's normal compliment) can travel for short distances at warp - meaning the Enterprise can lay into a Star Destroyer without ever slowing down.


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## Bullgrit (Jul 8, 2011)

For reference:

Jeff Russell's STARSHIP DIMENSIONS

Bullgrit


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## Umbran (Jul 8, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> Jeff Russell's STARSHIP DIMENSIONS




_"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not."_

-Yoda


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## Orius (Jul 8, 2011)

Wolverine has adamantium claws, not kryptonite ones.  Supe wins.

As for the next case:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFCBwob65Nw]YouTube - ‪Star Wars Vs. Star Trek‬‏[/ame]


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## Dyir (Jul 8, 2011)

Umbran said:


> The better question would be if Superman could break one of Wolverine's bones.



For what it's worth, Ultimate Hulk ripped Ultimate Wolverine in half.  And since Hulk and Superman are usually in the same ballpark of super-strength whenever depicted, you could argue that Superman would likewise have the ability to dismember Wolverine.  But, then again, in standard superhero comics, everything runs on Popularity Power and Narrativism rather than logic or physics.


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## Bullgrit (Jul 8, 2011)

Orius said:
			
		

> As for the next case:



THAT IS AWESOME!

(I can't give you more xp yet.)

Bullgrit


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## Khaibit (Jul 8, 2011)

Considering how many times a day my 8 yr old asks me 'Can X beat Y' or 'Which is stronger/faster/taller/etc', I should be an expert at answering these questions. However the only skills/powers I can manifest  with these questions anymore is Migraine (Level 2) and Create Diversion (Level 3).


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## megamania (Jul 8, 2011)

As always.... when company is producing the book?


Wolvie wins-
Wolverine has been ordered to kill a powerful alien that is believed to be a threat to both Canada and the world in general.  Department H sends him out.   Supes has a quick encounter.  He is amazed that the claws scratch him but do little more than that.  Wolvie is beyond amazed and goes into a beserker rage which results in his being burned alive by heat vision.  Supes leaves thinking that is done and wondering whom put metal into a man like this.   next day, fully healed, scent memorized, Wolvie hunts him down as Clark Kent.  Attacks him.   Secret ID revealed as the attack fails to harm him beyond his ID being revealed.   Once more Wolvie is forced to rely on his healing to recover from serioes injury.   Department H takes a month or two off to study this hardy alien and learns a few things.  Magic and Kryptonite.  They imbed the radiative rock into wolverine whom attacks him once more.  It becomes a contest of healing factor vs limited sun healing as the claws rip and tear into Superman.  The world is appauled by the battle.  In a heroic moment, Superman saves the pesky reporter Lois Lane by takes a shot in the chest and "dies". 
After a months of several "new" superman titles come out, he returns and the hunter becomes the hunted.

Superman wins-
Supes won't kill.  many battles like above but always where wolvie returns.  Then Doomsday enters and well...   Wolvie leaves as much of himself on the floor as on his bones.  Eventually his healing factor is over taxed and even with Superman trying to save him he dies.


If this doesn't work, think of the craziness of Scarlet Witch, Doctor Strange, Batman or Lobo being involved.


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## Umbran (Jul 8, 2011)

Dyir said:


> For what it's worth, Ultimate Hulk ripped Ultimate Wolverine in half.




That's a different thing, though.  Wolverine has adamantium-laced bones.  He doesn't have adamantium laced tendons and ligaments, so he can be dismembered or ripped apart by dislocating joints.  That doesn't answer the question of whether his bones can be broken.

To reduce the question to a more pure form - can Superman put his fist through (or otherwise break) Captain America's shield?


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## Morrus (Jul 8, 2011)

Umbran said:


> It doesn't get used at other times because it won't work on most ships in the Trek Universe. Subspace sensors defeat the maneuver, and Star Wars ships don't have them, because they don't use subspace.




Nah, they use _hyper_space!  They're so fast, they use a parsec as a measure of time!

Star Wars ships can cross a galaxy in a day or two. The Voyager needed, what, 800 years?


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## Morrus (Jul 8, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> *Note: I'm not even mentioning the fact that Star Wars is BILLIONS of years into the future.




Someone misread the Star Wars opening crawl!


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## Umbran (Jul 8, 2011)

Morrus said:


> Star Wars ships can cross a galaxy in a day or two. The Voyager needed, what, 800 years?




Yes, but that's a strategic advantage, not a tactical one.  It tells you how quickly the Empire can marshal forces from across the galaxy, but not how well those ships will do in combat once they've reached the target.


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## drothgery (Jul 8, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Yes, but that's a strategic advantage, not a tactical one.  It tells you how quickly the Empire can marshal forces from across the galaxy, but not how well those ships will do in combat once they've reached the target.



Also, as it's a galaxy far, far away, I'm going to declare that because it would create much more internal consistency except with Really Big Numbers in EU works, the Star Wars galaxy is very, very small (for a galaxy; the ~1000 light-year radius centered on earth that the Honor Harrington universe lives in has plenty of room for thousands of inhabited worlds, but is a very small part of the Milky Way).


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 8, 2011)

Morrus said:


> Someone misread the Star Wars opening crawl!




Semantics.


If you were to be magically teliported to any civilized planet in the Star Wars galaxy that is controlled by the Rebel Alliance/Republic/Empire and looked past the anachronistic elements there is no way in hell you would think "I'm in the totally in the thousands/millions/billions of years in past."

Placing the series in the past and in an other galaxy is a plot device to differentiate it from Star Trek which has people from earth and 300 years into the future.


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## billd91 (Jul 8, 2011)

All Star Trek vs Star Wars questions are ultimately paradoxical. Think of them as zen koans. The redshirts from Star Trek are nearly always killed. The stormtroopers from Star Wars nearly always miss. It's the impotent force vs the unstable object.


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## Dyir (Jul 8, 2011)

Umbran said:


> That's a different thing, though.  Wolverine has adamantium-laced bones.  He doesn't have adamantium laced tendons and ligaments, so he can be dismembered or ripped apart by dislocating joints.  That doesn't answer the question of whether his bones can be broken.
> 
> To reduce the question to a more pure form - can Superman put his fist through (or otherwise break) Captain America's shield?



Well, upon consideration, once upon a time Magneto ripped the adamantium off of Wolverine's bones.  Now Mags is definitely a top-tier super-villain, but I'm not sure I'd put his ability to produce the force necessary to accomplish that feat beyond what Superman could theoretically produce.  Again, both are highly dependent upon the writer/story, since the capabilities of superheroes doesn't always adhere to logic.

As far as Cap's shield...probably not.  According to Wikipedia, the only times the shield has been destroyed it was caused by some of the most powerful beings in the Marvel Universe.  So Mister Mxyzptlk could, but probably not Superman (unless some writer put him on a major power-trip).


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## MarkB (Jul 8, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> Who would win in a fight: Robocop or Terminator?




Dark Horse Comics did a Robocop / Terminator crossover about 15-20 years ago. As I recall, he won the first round with the assistance of some ED-209s, got trashed in the second by a robot dog, but ended up saving the day when he was re-activated in the future.


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## Squire James (Jul 8, 2011)

Superman vs. Wolverine:  I imagine Superman could break Wolverine's bones, but he probably wouldn't.  Both would survive long enough for them to put their heads together and eventually go after whoever set up the fight.  You know, how 99% of all hero vs. hero fights go!

Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer:  The video defines the gist of it... it's really the Enterprise vs. Darth Vader.  In this case, it depends on if Vader can really "force choke" entire bridge crews at the same time.  He never did this to more than one guy at a time in the movies, and there was no indication he could even do it twice in a short time span (note he never seemed powerful enough to do lightning).

Robocop vs. Terminator:  The Terminator seems to have far too much regenerative power to lose here.  I don't see anything in Robocop that was more powerful than the stuff the Terminator was taking from various people in his own films.


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## Morrus (Jul 8, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> Semantics.
> 
> 
> If you were to be magically teliported to any civilized planet in the Star Wars galaxy that is controlled by the Rebel Alliance/Republic/Empire and looked past the anachronistic elements there is no way in hell you would think "I'm in the totally in the thousands/millions/billions of years in past."
> ...




I'm not sure I'm capable of debating with someone who vehemently defends "a long time ago" as meaning "billions of years in the future"!

I think we're just in different worlds. I don't know where the "billions" came from, and I'm scared to ask! 

I don't think the prhase was used to "differentiate it from Star Trek", though.


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## Dyir (Jul 9, 2011)

Squire James said:


> Superman vs. Wolverine:  I imagine Superman could break Wolverine's bones, but he probably wouldn't.  Both would survive long enough for them to put their heads together and eventually go after whoever set up the fight.  You know, how 99% of all hero vs. hero fights go!



Heh, so very true!  I think that's kind of why questions like "which superhero would win in a fight" is so contentious: almost all of them follow a structure were Hero A wins a round against Hero B, but then Hero B wins a round against Hero A, and by this time they figure out what's really going on and gang up against Villains C & D.  It doesn't matter what power level each hero is supposedly at, or how nonsensical a fight between them would be, it's just how these things go down.


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 9, 2011)

I'm using Billions as an exaggerated figurative number representing the concept that if we were not explicitly told by Lucas that Star Wars took place "A long time ago", to differentiate it's setting from many sci-fi settings (including Star Trek), one can assume it took place in far in the future since the series always alludes to events that happened thousands of years in the past without using a specific calender that is tied to a earth's calender (albeit loosely as in the case of Star Trek).


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## Umbran (Jul 9, 2011)

Dyir said:


> Well, upon consideration, once upon a time Magneto ripped the adamantium off of Wolverine's bones.  Now Mags is definitely a top-tier super-villain, but I'm not sure I'd put his ability to produce the force necessary to accomplish that feat beyond what Superman could theoretically produce.




Magneto is one of those characters with powers that have gotten absurdly amplified over time - much like Superman.  Be that as it may, Magneto's trick there isn't so much about force, but about surgical precision.


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## Umbran (Jul 9, 2011)

Morrus said:


> I don't think the prhase was used to "differentiate it from Star Trek", though.




I have to agree with Morrus here.  Star Wars has sci-fi trappings, but really, it is fantasy - specifically a fable, myth, or legend, something that happens "a long time ago, in a land far away".  He wasn't differentiating from Trek, he was likening to standard fantasy.


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## megamania (Jul 9, 2011)

As always.... when company is producing the book?


Wolvie wins-
Wolverine has been ordered to kill a powerful alien that is believed to be a threat to both Canada and the world in general.  Department H sends him out.   Supes has a quick encounter.  He is amazed that the claws scratch him but do little more than that.  Wolvie is beyond amazed and goes into a beserker rage which results in his being burned alive by heat vision.  Supes leaves thinking that is done and wondering whom put metal into a man like this.   next day, fully healed, scent memorized, Wolvie hunts him down as Clark Kent.  Attacks him.   Secret ID revealed as the attack fails to harm him beyond his ID being revealed.   Once more Wolvie is forced to rely on his healing to recover from serioes injury.   Department H takes a month or two off to study this hardy alien and learns a few things.  Magic and Kryptonite.  They imbed the radiative rock into wolverine whom attacks him once more.  It becomes a contest of healing factor vs limited sun healing as the claws rip and tear into Superman.  The world is appauled by the battle.  In a heroic moment, Superman saves the pesky reporter Lois Lane by takes a shot in the chest and "dies". 
After a months of several "new" superman titles come out, he returns and the hunter becomes the hunted.

Superman wins-
Supes won't kill.  many battles like above but always where wolvie returns.  Then Doomsday enters and well...   Wolvie leaves as much of himself on the floor as on his bones.  Eventually his healing factor is over taxed and even with Superman trying to save him he dies.


If this doesn't work, think of the craziness of Scarlet Witch, Doctor Strange, Batman or Lobo being involved.


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## Orius (Jul 9, 2011)

Umbran said:


> To reduce the question to a more pure form - can Superman put his fist through (or otherwise break) Captain America's shield?




Interesting question, but I don't see it happening, particularly if we're dealing with Golden or Silver Age versions of the characters.  Captain America is the ultimate patriotic American superhero.  Superman fights for truth, justice, and the American way.  For all intents and purposes, they're on the same side.  The only way I can see this happening is if the two of them were on some kind of crazy bender and Supe punched the shield on a dare.  But if this is happening under the heavy hand of the Comics Code, this would never _ever_ happen.


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## Morrus (Jul 9, 2011)

megamania said:


> They imbed the radiative rock into wolverine whom attacks him once more.




Why are you giving Wolverine free extra powers?

OK, Cadmus Labs develops anti-regeneration serum and gives it Superman.  Superman rips Wolverine in half, and he doesn't regenerate.

This is silly.


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## Shayuri (Jul 9, 2011)

I just wanted to point out the real reason Star Trek ships beat Star Wars ships.

It does come down to photon torpedoes.

In the short time they're in warp, they travel light years at high FTL speeds. They consist of antimatter warheads.

I'm pretty sure Star Wars sensors wouldn't spot the Enterprise at a parsec away or so...and I know they wouldn't detect the incoming warp torpedoes. Meaning that you're sailing along in a star destroyer, intimidating the crap out of some rebel scum...and suddenly you're engulfed by antimatter explosions and die.

It's not pretty.

I suppose if you put Vader on the ship, the Force could warn him precognitively. I dunno if he could actually stop the carnage from happening since Force warnings are notoriously short-term, and it takes ships time to plot hyperspace courses...but it'd probably give him time enough to hit the escape pods and survive.


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 9, 2011)

Two things: On Superman vs Wolverine.


1.  Marvel kills 1 character each quarter.  Since it's unlikely DC would have Superman Job to Wolverine, Wolverine would have to die... spectacularly astonishingly especially since many are predicting that Wolverine will kill Cyclops (or Iceman)  in the upcoming Schizm X event.  Unfortunately, Wolverine's death will likely be dismemberment since Marvel as a fetish for seeing people have their heads, arms, or bodies ripped in half* so being thrown into the Sun or heat ray to ashes is out of question.

2. X-Men related comics love hanging lampshades on the issue of death.






* It should be pointed out that people really seem to thing gun shot deaths are lame in the MU.  Heads being smashed in seems rare in the MU especially within the 616 timeline.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2011)

billd91 said:


> Think of them as zen koans. The redshirts from Star Trek are nearly always killed. The stormtroopers from Star Wars nearly always miss. It's the impotent force vs the unstable object.




RS: "Why am I still alive with all those guys shooting at me?  Those guys *urk*"

ST: "Hey, look at that, they die ONLY when we fire at least 17" away from them!  Aim high!"

RS#2: "Set phasers on kill!"

ST: "Holy $H1+!!!  They just erased Fritz out of existence!  Those dirty, stinkin' Trekkies shot Fritz!!!"


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2011)

I see one scenario in which Logan takes down Kal-El: he contracts lycanthropy and becomes a Werewolverine.  The magic of the curse, coupled with the adamantium claws means he's got a chance.

Of course, if Supes realizes its a fight to the death in time, he'll reduce Wovie to ashes with his heat vision.  (Alas, I don't know if that would "stick", since I've been away from comics long enough to not know how powerful the fuzzball of fury's regeneration is these days.  Supes might have to drop an urn full of Logan's ashes- and bones- into the Sun or something.)


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 9, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I see one scenario in which Logan takes down Kal-El: he contracts lycanthropy and becomes a Werewolverine.




Sadly, becides recently being a vampire /facepalm....


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## megamania (Jul 9, 2011)

Morrus said:


> Why are you giving Wolverine free extra powers?
> 
> OK, Cadmus Labs develops anti-regeneration serum and gives it Superman.  Superman rips Wolverine in half, and he doesn't regenerate.
> 
> This is silly.




My point is.....

The end results would be based on which company produces the book.  What I wrote is a rough draft of how the battle would work out.

In their own seperate titles Superman is a god.   So long as there is a yellow sun Superman can not be defeated.  Wolverine has regenerated from bare bones within 4 minutes (aftermath of Civil War vs. Nuke) thus he can never be "killed".   So how do you write a story about this battle that is entertaining and reasonable (for comicbooks).


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 10, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Those dirty, stinkin' Trekkies shot Fritz!!!"




Danny, Danny, I thought everyone agreed that Han Solo shot Fritz!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 10, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> Danny, Danny, I thought everyone agreed that Han Solo shot Fritz!




That's a load of bakshi!


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 10, 2011)

I declare a new paradox Luca's Cantina. 

You place a bounty hunter and a smuggler within it small private (8ft x 8ft) alcove within the cantina and you arm them both with a blaster pistol that contains one shot.  You tell them to settle their business and you pull the curtain close.

After hearing two gunshots you must open the curtain to reveal who shot first, and which of the two is alive (if any).  Until you pull the curtain open both the smuggler and the bounty hunter are simultaneously alive and dead and both and both simultaneously shot first.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jul 11, 2011)

megamania said:


> In their own seperate titles Superman is a god.   So long as there is a yellow sun Superman can not be defeated.




My (admittedly possibly flawed and definitely incomplete) understanding is that Superman's invulnerability has limits.  If you can keep up enough pressure on him, or catch him when he's exhausted, he'll eventually go down.  That's just going to be a lot harder for someone to do who isn't on the same power level as he is.

This also is subject to the "Whose Comic is it?" codicil, as well as the big huge variable of "What does the writer want to do?"

Brad


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 11, 2011)

> My (admittedly possibly flawed and definitely incomplete) understanding is that Superman's invulnerability has limits. If you can keep up enough pressure on him, or catch him when he's exhausted, he'll eventually go down. That's just going to be a lot harder for someone to do who isn't on the same power level as he is.




Even after Supes' powers got rewritten to "de-God" him a bit, he's still almost in a class by himself in terms of invulnerability and overall power.*  AFAIK, no mundane material short of a kryptonite variant has ever injured him.  So mere adamantium- or whatever super-hard material you'd care to name- won't cut it.  (Sorry, had to.)










* Supes' main concerns would be: kryptonite, magic and its wielders, quardian energies and its wielders, and beings of like power.  A list of these would include (but would not be limited to) Green Lanterns, Daxamites, Capt. Marvel (and the other Shazam-powered bunch), Ultra-Boy (occasionally), Martian Manhunter (occasionally), Wonder Woman (occasionally), Super Girl (occasionally), Power Girl (occasionally) Ultraa, Doomsday, certain Eternals and any being or tech of Kryptonian (or presumably Daxamite) origins.


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## noretoc (Jul 12, 2011)

The Executor has a gravity well projector.  Can the enterprise enter warp when under the influence of a planet's gravity?


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## jonesy (Jul 12, 2011)

Dyir said:


> But, then again, in standard superhero comics, everything runs on Popularity Power and Narrativism rather than logic or physics.



Squirrel Girl enters, everybody loses.


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## Aluvial (Jul 12, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> *Note: I'm not even mentioning the fact that Star Wars is BILLIONS of years into the future, meaning their tech should be "magical" compaired to the 25th century.



"A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 12, 2011)

Aluvial said:


> "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."




Conversation already happened....


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 12, 2011)

jonesy said:


> Squirrel Girl enters, everybody loses.




Damn you Jonesy!  Why must you make repping you so difficult? 

Seriously!  Squirrel Girl is *canonically* the strongest mos powerful hero in Marvel that isn't tied to any team (she recently left The GLA because she held them back).  I remember reading somewhere that the reason why she wsn't included in the most recent events was because she fought against Galactus and Thanos, found the Scarlet Witch (twice), prevented Darkest Night from crossing over into Marvel U (which would have been redundant because of Chaos War and Necrosha), defeated Adrian Veidt befoe he could teleport a giant space squid into Manhattan (but did it anyways because it made her fur stink), brought world peace, ended the global recession, created a viable competitor to the iPad 2 (and didn't release it because she knew it would kill apple), and then blew up the Death Star by throwing Tippy-Toe at it.


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## Umbran (Jul 12, 2011)

noretoc said:


> The Executor has a gravity well projector.  Can the enterprise enter warp when under the influence of a planet's gravity?




I don't think Trek's depiction of this is consistent or comprehensive enough to tell us.  Trek Starships regularly go to warp from orbit, but there are canon instances of some gravity fields making ships drop out of warp, or keep warp fields from forming.

To split the difference - Trek ships probably have fail-safe systems to keep them from plowing into large or unusual objects at warp, and you can kick an unsuspecting starship out of warp if you're really clever, and you can keep the warp field form forming with very focused, targeted beams.  

As I understand it, Star Wars gravity well projectors are not so focused - they are not built to target individual ships, but instead to interdict known star lanes by putting a "planet" in the way.  It is more a strategic device than a tactical one.

And, as a genre point - Imperial ships are built to specifications, and work as intended.  Federation ships are regularly modified to work off-spec by enterprising engineers.  

All of which discussion is a bit moot unless we figure out if Imperial weaponry has any notable impact on shielded Federation ships.  To my mind, indications are that by the time of Next Generation, lasers and ion beams aren't much of an issue, and you need more exotic stuff to be a major threat to a starship.


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## jonesy (Jul 12, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> Damn you Jonesy!  Why must you make repping you so difficult?
> 
> Seriously!  Squirrel Girl is *canonically* the strongest mos powerful hero in Marvel that isn't tied to any team...




Being Danielle Cage's babysitter kind of makes her a backdoor member of the New Avengers.


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 12, 2011)

The Avengers have no credibility since they have the Beast as a member.  The Beast has *the worst* history of Genocide within the Marvel U outside Bishop, the Phoenixes, Break World, Galactus, Marvel Zombies, and the Hulks.

Squirrel Girl is better off on her own.


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## jonesy (Jul 12, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> The Avengers have no credibility since they have the Beast as a member.  The Beast has *the worst* history of Genocide within the Marvel U outside Bishop, the Phoenixes, Break World, Galactus, Marvel Zombies, and the Hulks.
> 
> Squirrel Girl is better off on her own.



Beast isn't a member of New Avengers.


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 12, 2011)

True.. he currently is a "Secret Avenger" but currently each of the avenger teams are more akin to separate departments in one company that are allowed to function autonomously, but must report in to the General Manager (Steve Rogers) at the end of each quarter.


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## Ed_Laprade (Jul 12, 2011)

Umbran said:


> I don't think Trek's depiction of this is consistent or comprehensive enough to tell us. Trek Starships regularly go to warp from orbit, but there are canon instances of some gravity fields making ships drop out of warp, or keep warp fields from forming.



Heck, in the Save The Whales movie they went to Warp inside Earth's atmosphere. Which I pointed out to the audience, to their annoyance, LOUDLY at the time. Stripping off the planet's atmosphere doesn't seem like a very good way to save a species to me.


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## Umbran (Jul 12, 2011)

Ed_Laprade said:


> Stripping off the planet's atmosphere doesn't seem like a very good way to save a species to me.




I don't know why you think that'd happen.  Going to warp in an atmosphere would be bad for the ship, but not much for the planet.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 12, 2011)

Ed_Laprade said:


> Which I pointed out to the audience, to their annoyance, LOUDLY at the time.




No wonder they were annoyed, that would be considered pretty offensive behaviour in any county, surely?


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## Felon (Jul 13, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> Conversation already happened....




And it was deemed that the distinction between past and present was mere semantics. That came as quite a shock for me personally.


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 13, 2011)

Felon said:


> And it was deemed that the distinction between past and present was mere semantics. That came as quite a shock for me personally.




There is a difference between being omnipresent  and  repeating oneself to the point of becoming a broken record.  

I'm pretty sure that Lucas gave up talking about "who shot first" and "why Yoda and Obi Wan didn't warn Luke about having incestuous relations with his twin sister" after being asked the 5th time.  Same thing probably applies to with Wil Wheaton and the questions about why Wesley wasn't shoved out of an air lock or sacrificed to the Borg.   So you can take this as being proactive.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 13, 2011)

> I'm pretty sure that Lucas gave up talking about "who shot first" and "why Yoda and Obi Wan didn't warn Luke about having incestuous relations with his twin sister" after being asked the 5th time.




Lucas has stock answers to both:

1) FAN: "Who shot first?"

Lucas: "My bodyguard." _**BANG!**_ "Nice shot Marco! Clean that up, will ya, Rory?"

2) FAN: "Why didn't Luke's mentors reveal that Leia was his sister?"

Lucas: "They were trying to sell the story and photo rights to the tabloids."


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## Ed_Laprade (Jul 13, 2011)

Umbran said:


> I don't know why you think that'd happen. Going to warp in an atmosphere would be bad for the ship, but not much for the planet.



That, of course, depends on how ST warp tech actually works. Since we don't really know (there are probably several 'official' answers), I'm gonna assume that a ship leaving a planet's atmosphere at FTL speeds is going to suck it off as it goes. YMMV.    And, yeah, the ship better have _really_ good shields if it wants to survive a trick like that!


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## Ed_Laprade (Jul 13, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> No wonder they were annoyed, that would be considered pretty offensive behaviour in any county, surely?



True. But by that point I was rather annoyed with the movie, and that scene was the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were. But at least it was only a few words, rather than a running commentary that some 'patrons' seem determined to share with anyone around them. And not that I'd undo it either, as I was _really_ annoyed at the flick by then.


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## Kzach (Jul 14, 2011)

Ash would pwn them all.

But as for the questions of the OP:

Wolverine would drink some liquid kryptonite and wipe his butt with Superman's cape after crapping all over him.

The Star Destroyer would win simply on the basis that it exists in a 3D space environment whereas Star Trek seems only capable of 2D.

And Robocop would win because he's part human, duh.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 14, 2011)

> The Star Destroyer would win simply on the basis that it exists in a 3D space environment whereas Star Trek seems only capable of 2D.




_*KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!*_ would disagree with you on that particular point.


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## jonesy (Jul 14, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> _*KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!*_ would disagree with you on that particular point.



No he wouldn't. He's the one with the two-dimensional thinking.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 14, 2011)

Yes, but he quickly realized his mistake.

I mean, we'd have to use an Ouija board or have a seance, but he's clearly one who can testify that _Trek_ ships can move in 3 dimensions.


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## Umbran (Jul 14, 2011)

Ed_Laprade said:


> Since we don't really know (there are probably several 'official' answers)




The pseudoscientific gobbledygook on this is actually pretty consistent.



> I'm gonna assume that a ship leaving a planet's atmosphere at FTL speeds is going to suck it off as it goes. YMMV.




Dude, compared to the entire planet, the ship is tiny.  A speck.  A dot.  You're free to decide for yourself what it does, but when the ship is about half a kilometer long, taking _over half a million cubic kilometers of atmosphere_ with it, doesn't seem reasonable to me, especially when about half that atmosphere is on the other side of the planet (so, 10,000+ km away) at the time.

Taking a small bubble of air with it when it goes, fine.  But not the whole atmosphere.


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## Ed_Laprade (Jul 14, 2011)

Umbran said:


> The pseudoscientific gobbledygook on this is actually pretty consistent.
> 
> Dude, compared to the entire planet, the ship is tiny. A speck. A dot. You're free to decide for yourself what it does, but when the ship is about half a kilometer long, taking _over half a million cubic kilometers of atmosphere_ with it, doesn't seem reasonable to me, especially when about half that atmosphere is on the other side of the planet (so, 10,000+ km away) at the time.
> 
> Taking a small bubble of air with it when it goes, fine. But not the whole atmosphere.



I'll have to take your word on this. Most of what I 'know' about Trek tech I read in fanzines before second gen.  

Ah, but the ship is moving _Faster Than Light_! I'm sure there must be some sort of formula that would allow one to figure out what would happen. But whatever it is, I'm betting it wouldn't be pretty!


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## Umbran (Jul 14, 2011)

Ed_Laprade said:


> Ah, but the ship is moving _Faster Than Light_! I'm sure there must be some sort of formula that would allow one to figure out what would happen.




Yes.... and no.  You'll find no formulas for something moving faster than the speed of light in a vacuum.  As far as modern physics goes, it isn't possible, so there are no formulas for it.  There's no formula for FTL fluid dynamics.


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## Bullgrit (Jul 14, 2011)

I didn't think the ships were actually "moving faster than light" but rather were encased in a bubble that warped space/time around it.

Bullgrit


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## MarkB (Jul 14, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> I didn't think the ships were actually "moving faster than light" but rather were encased in a bubble that warped space/time around it.
> 
> Bullgrit




That's more or less the size of it. And anything outside that bubble won't be seriously disturbed by it.


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## Zelda Themelin (Jul 15, 2011)

Does Marvel mix much with DC? Usually no.

Could Wolverine kill Superman?  No. Maybe if he started wearing kryptonate nail-polish, color choice matters here.

Then there is always time travel. For this Wolverine would need help from friends. Then go back in time of DC universe and go kill little Kal-El (or whatever he was called) before he gained all that irritating damage-resistance.

Then make sure to return to Now of Marvel universe.

Watch the fireworks as DC universe unravels in paradoxes manifesting.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 15, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> *Note: I'm not even mentioning the fact that Star Wars is BILLIONS of years into the future, meaning their tech should be "magical" compaired to the 25th century.




Erm "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away." Star Wars tech is ancient, compared to Star Trek tech.

Also look at the more advanced tech Star Trek, has like transporters, replicators, warp drive (which has been shown to be superior to hyperspace travel) and the like.  Star Wars is old, very old, redundant tech.

But then you also need to consider the relative sizes and firepower they can bring.

USS Enterprise 1701-D (650m approx) is a tiny fraction of the size of the Executor Super Stardestroyer  (19 km)

It's like attacking an aircraft carrier in a speed boat.


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## Morrus (Jul 15, 2011)

So the answer to the question is that Wolverine can't kill Superman without giving him arbitrary new abilities or help from outside; and Superman probably can't kill Wolverine but can easily neutralise him permanently.

Of course, both can benefit from scientists giving Wolverine kryptonite claws or Superman adamantium-melting heat vision, but then we're just making stuff up and we can do that ad infinitum.


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## Umbran (Jul 16, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> I didn't think the ships were actually "moving faster than light" but rather were encased in a bubble that warped space/time around it.




And then the bubble moves faster than light.  I mean, if you're trying to get from one star to another in reasonable time, eventually *something* has to go faster than light.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 16, 2011)

I think the technobabble of warp drive is that it isn't so much allowing FTL, but rather creating a shortcut through space-time through which something moving very, very fast (but still slower than light) can travel.  You know, the whole "folding space" thing.


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## jonesy (Jul 16, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I think the technobabble of warp drive is that it isn't so much allowing FTL, but rather creating a shortcut through space-time through which something moving very, very fast (but still slower than light) can travel.  You know, the whole "folding space" thing.



When talking about Star Trek it quite specifically says it's moving faster than light. The bubble takes the ship to a 'subspace' where the laws of physics are different and FTL isn't impossible.

The folding space thing was used in Dune.


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## Umbran (Jul 16, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I think the technobabble of warp drive is that it isn't so much allowing FTL, but rather creating a shortcut through space-time through which something moving very, very fast (but still slower than light) can travel.  You know, the whole "folding space" thing.




Not quite.

In Trecknobabble, the ship gets wrapped in a "warp field", and then successive layers of field are layered on top.  The outer layers are tightened, and the bubble with the sip inside squirts forward, rather like a wet bar of soap from a fist.

The ship doesn't actually shift into subspace - it stays in normal space, but the warp bubble allows it to break the normal laws hereabouts.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 16, 2011)

> The folding space thing was used in Dune.




To quote one of my favorite "Britcoms", _Father Ted_: "Ahhh, right so!"


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## nightwind1 (Jul 19, 2011)

RangerWickett said:


> Wolverine could kill Robo-Cop and the Terminator.
> 
> Superman could kill the Enterprise and a Star Destroyer.
> 
> ...



Nah, Drizzl would kill all of them with his kool L337 skimitarz...


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## Dragon Sin-Camealot (Jul 20, 2011)

It doesn't help people when you omit important information.  Who is in command of the ship?  Is the battle lop-sided?  Did Superman let Wolverine win?

You can get some kind of guess on the victory yet without more data by the original poster.  It's close to hearsay.


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