# Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05



## Truth Seeker (Jul 30, 2005)

*"Fragged"*, Episode #203.

The return of democracy to the fleet brings with it both hardball politics and potentially deadly intrigue.

*Cast*: *Edward James Olmos, Mary McDonnell, Katee Sackhoff, Jamie Bamber, James Callis, Tricia Helfer, Grace Park, Richard Hatch.*

Okay, it can get worse, what do we have, a commander-in-chief in a health crisis. A president removed from her position, for over stepping her bounds, a commander's son trying to find his way through things, and wait... and a Exo who really don't want to be abroad or in charge of anything, expect the fraggin' bottle.

I know I missing somethings...fill it it.

Oh yeah, quotes of the day: Bitch took my ride, & Mother fragker.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 30, 2005)

I can't help but feel sorry for Tigh. Originally, he seemed like just a jerk, but since we've had a chance to see him sans drinking/wife, its just harder to see him fall back into the old ways. Especially since he knows he's no leader.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 30, 2005)

Tigh sure blew it that episode.  It seems the Cylons are doing what they can to push Baltar further and further.  Now he's killed a man.  Justifiably, but still.  I love how I can never be entirely sure where he's going to end up.  He could go either way, I think.  No Starbuck at all, unless I missed her while switching back and forth from Baseball Tonight.  

I really wonder what Adama is going to do when he's back on his feet.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 30, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> No Starbuck at all, unless I missed her while switching back and forth from Baseball Tonight.




Nope, no Starbuck or Helo at all. They may not be much of a focus next episode either...but they'll definitely start appearing soon. Have to get that arrow to the right place and do all that stuff with it.  



> I really wonder what Adama is going to do when he's back on his feet.




That will sure be interesting. He's got on hell of a mess to clean up, and looking at the preview for next week, its not getting any better.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 30, 2005)

I think Tigh was taking one for the team.  He declares martial law and takes the heat, then Adama comes back and can be the good guy.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 30, 2005)

Oh, and random thought before I pass out for the night.

There's definitely some connection between Kobol and the Cylons. 'Six' kept referencing things about there being a lack of divine presence or something similar to that on the planet...seems strange for her usual "God is everywhere" thing.


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## Darrin Drader (Jul 30, 2005)

Maybe the cylons have gotten their butts kicked on Kobol as much as the humans have.

And why is it that the humans had to evacuate in the first place? There's alot about Kobol that we don't know yet, and I think it will be important to the season.


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## Truth Seeker (Jul 30, 2005)

Wow...what a show . Now, must sleep.


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## dravot (Jul 31, 2005)

Overall, a strong episode.  I watched half last night at 1am (when I got back from our weekly D&D session), and the rest today, so I really want to sit down and watch the entire thing.

Six's prediction that someone would betray the others paid off in spades.  Depending on how you look at it, 4 people betrayed others (Callie by freaking out and not doing the mission, the LT for threatening to kill Callie, the Chief for violating chain of command and Gaius for being Gaius).

I think that quite possibly, Gaius would have always killed the LT, but now Six gets to take credit for it, and push him even further.  Genius.

Back on the Galactica, it was nice to see Billie working the angles and securing more Extract once he figured out how to to so, and just in time fo ruin Tigh's show and tell.

While Tigh's behavior is consistent, I've always grudgingly liked him, but this episode he flushed it all away.  I hope he pays handsomely for his actions.


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## Truth Seeker (Jul 31, 2005)

Just love the look on his face *Tigh's face* when he thought the council would have gotten to see a looney president, instead...she lets it all out, about her cancer.

WOW, that was gutsy...

And she came out much stronger .

Now the hype on the prophet is being fed to a higher degree.


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 31, 2005)

I don't see how Tigh gets out of this one.

We know Adama will live and recover ep 5 or 6.  We know that they are not going to kill Roslin off at least before the end of this season.

We know the Council of 12 will never forgive Tigh for acting as he did.

So: either the Martial Law sticks or it has to go. If it has to go - Tigh will take the heat for it and Adama will return.

I suppose Tigh might do a deal with Baltar and restore gov't to him.  Baltar is the hero - Tigh saves face.

Alternatively, Starbuck get back with arrow in ep 6 - it does unlock something and it does point to earth. Adama admits he was wrong - offers his resignation to Roslin - she refuses to accept it knowing Tigh can't do the job and there really is no alternative to Adama.

Let bygones be bygones. One happy fleet.  Except Richard Hatch's character will never forget this and it will be hard to have Roslin run for re-election with her cancer known.

Baltar to the resuce as President again? Or is it Apollo - who profits and gains in credibility by supporting Roslin?

Either way - I honestly don't see how Tigh lasts.  He's simply not fit to wear the uniform - and he certainly isn't fit to be Executive Officer.  The Council will never, ever trust him.

He's just swirling the bowl now. There won't be a third season for Colonel Tigh.


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## ecliptic (Jul 31, 2005)

Should have been martial law since the beginning. There are no 12 colonies since the Cylons took them out. There are less than 50,000 humans left and all of them need to pipe down and let the military do their work. In such a horrible situation martial law is the only effective governing body. Beurcratic bickering would do nothing for them. Exactly what is the President done anyway? Other than risked the lives of almost 50,000 people for delusions.

I have said it before. She should have stepped down as soon as she realized she was sick.


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## Volaran (Jul 31, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Should have been martial law since the beginning. There are no 12 colonies since the Cylons took them out. There are less than 50,000 humans left and all of them need to pipe down and let the military do their work. In such a horrible situation martial law is the only effective governing body. Beurcratic bickering would do nothing for them. Exactly what is the President done anyway? Other than risked the lives of almost 50,000 people for delusions.
> 
> I have said it before. She should have stepped down as soon as she realized she was sick.




This may have been pointed out before, but she knew she was sick before taking the presidency.  Do you mean that she should have never accepted the role?  That she should have stepped down after convincing Adama not to abandon the last remains of humanity for a pointless fight and the initial crisis had passed? Some other specific time?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 31, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Other than risked the lives of almost 50,000 people for delusions.




Delusions that are continually proving to turn out correct and fitting words in the ancient scrolls. They definitely are more than delusions at this point.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 31, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Should have been martial law since the beginning. There are no 12 colonies since the Cylons took them out. There are less than 50,000 humans left and all of them need to pipe down and let the military do their work. In such a horrible situation martial law is the only effective governing body. Beurcratic bickering would do nothing for them. Exactly what is the President done anyway? Other than risked the lives of almost 50,000 people for delusions.
> 
> I have said it before. She should have stepped down as soon as she realized she was sick.



 I think the Military would have had martial law from the get go.  But it's fun to watch it play out like this in any event.


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## Endur (Jul 31, 2005)

On the one hand Galactica is a military vessel, on the other hand the Human systems were at peace until the sneak attack.  Colonel Tigh was about to be retired along with Adama and the Galactica.  Likewise, the President's previous experience was as a school teacher appointed Secretary of Education.  

There is no reason to keep Adama and President Rosalind in charge in the wake of an apocalpytic event, except for inertia and continuity.

The scary thing is that under this situation, Baltar really should be put in charge.  Or Starbuck and Apollo.


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## Fast Learner (Jul 31, 2005)

Continuity -- and the mental stability and reassuredness that comes with it -- is a huge reason to maintain a civilian government.

Besides which, as was pointed out in the series, the civilian government has done a _ton_ maintaining civilization among the ships, from distributing food and medicine to providing all kinds of other services.

It scares me how easily people are willing to suggest succumbing to martial law. Does history teach us nothing?


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## Kobold Avenger (Aug 1, 2005)

I never saw much of the original series, but weren't they effectively living under martial law in that one?

Though as far as the new series goes, it was definately Laura Roslyn that put the fleet together and gathered the refugees.  Right from the start she was the one that got Apollo and Boomer to find the others.  While the Galactica was completely unaware of the situation at the time.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 1, 2005)

In the original, Adama was leader of the military and... well, essentially (though the series never makes it truly clear), the Council of Twelve was the civilian leadership. And -- again, essentially -- the Council was in charge of the whole thing, telling Adama what to do. Except that he rarely did it, and usually because the Council's ideas weren't necessarily sound... except that they were the civilian government, so he should have....

To sum, it was a mess, but they did have both factions.


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## wingsandsword (Aug 1, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> It scares me how easily people are willing to suggest succumbing to martial law. Does history teach us nothing?



Not that much.  When people are scared, they run to what promises to remove the fear.  They don't want freedom, they don't want liberty, they want safety.  Sad, very sad, but that's what happens when you let fear rule your life.

Now, in the original BSG, Adama _was_ the head of the Military and the Civilian government (which was very token and only occasionally mentioned), and was the benevolent father-figure leader of all humanity.  However, 70's BSG wasn't exactly realistic in how it came to that state:

They witness the destruction of the entire 12 colonies, and the first place they go is a glitzy Disco/Casino planet full of partying humans ignoring the destruction of the human homeworlds.  Then they go from long lost human colony, to lost outpost, to western-themed "frontier" planet, to even fully developed spacefaring and militant human worlds, but they always ignore them (and never take any more humans along, blissfully leaving them to the pursuing Cylon fleet and never think about it).  They literally ran into many times more humans on the worlds they visited than were possibly in the fleet.  It quite often had a "Star Trek" Planet of the Week feel.

Original BSG had a great concept, spoiled with a very thin Colonials=Good Guys who Get along and follow their infallible Great Leader vs. Cylons=Menacing but strangely incompetent machines lead by a cartoon-chararacture of a Baltar.  It did have the strength of a few excellent episodes ("The Living Legend", "Lost Planet of the Gods", "The Hand of God") and it really did go a long way to use different costumes, expressions and designs to make it seem like another civilization instead of Earth-humans (Yahren instead of years, frack & felgercarb swears, socialators instead of prostitutes [I'm amazed that one got by '79 era network censors])

They were always seeking Earth (which wasn't a myth, in one of the first episodes they intercepted a transmission of the Apollo 11 landing, which given the 70's series where Galactica found earth in 1980, meant they couldn't be further out than 11 light years).  Oh, and they never, ever even mentioned FTL drives of any kind, those giant rockets on the back always seemed to get them there on time.

So, having Adama rule the entire Fleet under de-facto martial law didn't have quite the same feel as Adama staging a military coup and Tigh outright declaring Martial Law (after being goaded by his wife, who is increasingly looking like another Cylon)


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## ecliptic (Aug 1, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> It scares me how easily people are willing to suggest succumbing to martial law. Does history teach us nothing?




How easily? History has never taught us what we should do at the brink of extinction. This is a unique situation under unique circumstances.
Human race is struggling to survive and one mistake could end humanity as a whole.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> On the one hand Galactica is a military vessel, on the other hand the Human systems were at peace until the sneak attack.  Colonel Tigh was about to be retired along with Adama and the Galactica.  Likewise, the President's previous experience was as a school teacher appointed Secretary of Education.
> 
> There is no reason to keep Adama and President Rosalind in charge in the wake of an apocalpytic event, except for inertia and continuity.




Adama still has rank and thus he is the leader of the military.




			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Not that much. When people are scared, they run to what promises to remove the fear. They don't want freedom, they don't want liberty, they want safety. Sad, very sad, but that's what happens when you let fear rule your life.




I say it is pointless to have freedom if you cannot live to use it.


People want liberty but they want to survive first. This is beyond fear when you are part of a few thousand that used to be billions. Asking for bureaucracy in such a situation is asking for death. Where one mistake will cause the extinction of your entire race.


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## wingsandsword (Aug 1, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Asking for bureaucracy in such a situation is asking for death. Where one mistake will cause the extinction of your entire race.



Calling the legitimately elected, lawful goverment just "bureaucracy" is scary, that somebody could honestly think that.  They've had meetings of a civilian government, elected and convened a legislature, even had races and elected a new vice president.  Adama had no problem with having a civilian government until it became inconvenient to him.

They have had no problems until Adama decided that he was more important than his civilian command authority and decided to lead a squad of goons over to stage a coup d'etat, betting that they were more loyal to him personally than the rightful rule of law.  Sadly, that was the case so far except for his own son, one of the few actual honorable Colonial soldiers we've seen.  Even if they were just deposing Roslin as unfit, legally Baltar would become the President since he's the VP, and although he's on Kobol, it would be acknowleged that he would take the position upon being found (assuming there was no further chain of succession), instead of Adama (and Tigh) being in sole command.


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## ecliptic (Aug 1, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Calling the legitimately elected, lawful goverment just "bureaucracy" is scary, that somebody could honestly think that.




What else would you call it? That type of government is needed when there are billions of people. There aren't even 50,000 now. Exactly what is the point of such a government that can't be handled by a smaller trimmer government?



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Adama had no problem with having a civilian government until it became inconvenient to him.




Inconvient to him to do his job of keeping the human race alive.



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> They have had no problems until Adama decided that he was more important than his civilian command authority and decided to lead a squad of goons over to stage a coup d'etat, betting that they were more loyal to him personally than the rightful rule of law.  Sadly, that was the case so far except for his own son, one of the few actual honorable Colonial soldiers we've seen.  Even if they were just deposing Roslin as unfit, legally Baltar would become the President since he's the VP, and although he's on Kobol, it would be acknowleged that he would take the position upon being found (assuming there was no further chain of succession), instead of Adama (and Tigh) being in sole command.




He decided he was more important? Roslin decided her delusions were more important than the grounded in reality tasks at hand. Roslin risked the entire human race for these delusions.


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## wingsandsword (Aug 1, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> What else would you call it? That type of government is needed when there are billions of people. There aren't even 50,000 now. Exactly what is the point of such a government that can't be handled by a smaller trimmer government?



Actually, the legitimate Colonial government is quite small, and about the size of a small town government (like a city of 47,000 might have, if not smaller).  It has a President, Vice President, and the Quorum of Twelve.  There are some civil servants, but they are not decision makers, and implement the decisions of those above them.  That's the core of the government, 14 elected positions: a leader, deputy leader, and a ruling council of a dozen elected represenatives.  In any city of 50,000 you'll find a similar sized (or larger) government.  It's already been established in episodes like Colonial Day that it is the civilian government which has been responsible for much of the day-to-day living in the fleet, like water and food distribution. Try doing all that with just one person ruling by martial law without any "bureaucracy" while also managing fleet defense.



> Inconvient to him to do his job of keeping the human race alive.



No, it was inconvenient when his superior had alternate priorities.  Adama based his entire leadership of the fleet on a huge lie, that he knew where Earth was.  Roslin realized that there was one way for the fleet to actually find the location of Earth from what was left on Kobol, but it required resources Adama had claimed for himself.  Without Roslin's initiative, Galactica might wander the stars forever.  Roslin was looking out for the long term, Adama was being myopic wanting to waste their opportunity on a military strike.  This is why in any legiitmate government the military is accountable to a civilian command structure, to keep perspective on people who only look at things from a combative perspective.



> He decided he was more important? Roslin decided her delusions were more important than the grounded in reality tasks at hand. Roslin risked the entire human race for these delusions.



You might question her leadership, but her leadership was upheld during the Colonial Day which created the Civilian government.  The rest of the Quorum of Twelve seemed to think that she was a true prophet they heard about her condition.  It's easy to sit back and say it's all delusions and hallucinations in your easy chair on Earth in the here & now.  Think of it from a Colonial perspective: their entire civilization was united by one religion, with a clear set of fairly unambiguous apocalyptic prophecies.  The current President appears to fulfil the exact terms of this prophecy, and has an opportunity to literally lead them to the Promised Land, although it means crossing their military head.  It's not unrealistic for people to believe that, or for leaders to remain in power on a lot flimsier religious declarations.  Wars have been declared, invasions launched, and other sweeping actions undertaken in the modern day, real world based strictly on a leader believing that they had a vision/contact/message from above telling them so.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 1, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> How easily? History has never taught us what we should do at the brink of extinction. This is a unique situation under unique circumstances.
> Human race is struggling to survive and one mistake could end humanity as a whole.
> 
> 
> ...



Well, Adama was never the leader of the Colonial military before - he took this position based on the same laws and rules that say that Roslin is the rightful president of the 12 Colonies (or their remains).

Apollo said something to that matter (it was in Bastille Day): 
"The articles say there is election coming in 6 months. If you´re telling me we´re throwing out the law, then you I am not a captain, you are not the commander, you are not the president, and I don´t owe either of you an explaination"


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## ecliptic (Aug 1, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Actually, the legitimate Colonial government is quite small, and about the size of a small town government (like a city of 47,000 might have, if not smaller).  It has a President, Vice President, and the Quorum of Twelve.  There are some civil servants, but they are not decision makers, and implement the decisions of those above them.  That's the core of the government, 14 elected positions: a leader, deputy leader, and a ruling council of a dozen elected represenatives.  In any city of 50,000 you'll find a similar sized (or larger) government.  It's already been established in episodes like Colonial Day that it is the civilian government which has been responsible for much of the day-to-day living in the fleet, like water and food distribution. Try doing all that with just one person ruling by martial law without any "bureaucracy" while also managing fleet defense.




The entire government is based around 12 colonies. There are not 12 colonies anymore. There are a few ships alone in the universe. You are also forgetting the thousands of minor elected local official below them. The Twelve are there to represent each colony. None of those colonies exist anymore. Who are they representing exactly because I am sure somewhere in their political doctrine they mention "colony" and "colonies" as well as specific colonies. None of those colonies exist so it makes the doctrines giving each of the colonies a voice null and void.



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> No, it was inconvenient when his superior had alternate priorities.  Adama based his entire leadership of the fleet on a huge lie, that he knew where Earth was.  Roslin realized that there was one way for the fleet to actually find the location of Earth from what was left on Kobol, but it required resources Adama had claimed for himself.  Without Roslin's initiative, Galactica might wander the stars forever.  Roslin was looking out for the long term, Adama was being myopic wanting to waste their opportunity on a military strike.  This is why in any legiitmate government the military is accountable to a civilian command structure, to keep perspective on people who only look at things from a combative perspective.




Your joking right? Adama's leadership is based on military structure. His knowledge of where a planet is or not has absolutely nothing to do with his command. He does what every leader in his position does, he gives his people strength to keep fighting for survival. 

It required military resources that were under *his* command. She went beyond his command and side swiped a military officer with bad news and took advantage of her emotional distress. Roslin was only looking out through the colored glasses of delusional mental breakdown. 
Waste their opprotunity on a military strike? You mean the military strike that was crucial for the survival of humanity. She put everything on the line right there.

The differences between Adama and Roslin are apparent. Adama uses religion and obviously untruths to bolster the morale. Roslin uses religion and deceit to manipulate others into a course of action she believes is right based on delusions.



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> You might question her leadership, but her leadership was upheld during the Colonial Day which created the Civilian government.  The rest of the Quorum of Twelve seemed to think that she was a true prophet they heard about her condition.  It's easy to sit back and say it's all delusions and hallucinations in your easy chair on Earth in the here & now.  Think of it from a Colonial perspective: their entire civilization was united by one religion, with a clear set of fairly unambiguous apocalyptic prophecies.  The current President appears to fulfil the exact terms of this prophecy, and has an opportunity to literally lead them to the Promised Land, although it means crossing their military head.  It's not unrealistic for people to believe that, or for leaders to remain in power on a lot flimsier religious declarations.





Think of it in logical perspective. When a human being is in such dire distress they will believe anything that will make them feel secure. Even if the feeling of security is misplaced. They will grab and hold onto the the illogical and force themselves to see it as logical. The fact that the 12 believe her is only detrimental to my view of their ability to lead in such a situation. 




			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Wars have been declared, invasions launched, and other sweeping actions undertaken in the modern day, real world based strictly on a leader believing that they had a vision/contact/message from above telling them so.




Because we all know Osama Bin Laden is very religious.


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## Lord Pendragon (Aug 1, 2005)

I haven't had a chance to see a lot of BSG, unfortunately.  But I did see the scene where the President saw the Twelve in her jail cell, and claimed to be the prophecied leader, because she's dying.

It occurred to me that Adama is also dying at the moment.  Is it possible that Adama is the leader prophecied to guide the remnants of humanity to their goal, rather than the President?  Or has this possibility already been disproven?


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## wingsandsword (Aug 1, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> It occurred to me that Adama is also dying at the moment.  Is it possible that Adama is the leader prophecied to guide the remnants of humanity to their goal, rather than the President?  Or has this possibility already been disproven?



Pretty thoroughly disproven.  It's a lot more specific than just dying.  Specifically it was that they were slowly dying of a wasting disease, which fighting breast cancer is a lot closer to than internal bleeding after a gunshot wound.

The idea of her being a prophet first came in the episode The Hand of God, when she had a vision during a press conference (skeptics such as ecliptic call it a delusion) of two snakes on her podium, then ten more.  Adama has had no visions at all.

_"And the Lords anointed a leader to guide the caravan of the heavens to their new homeland. And unto the leader, they gave a vision of serpents, numbering two and ten, as a sign of things to come." _

Then in the second passage it tells of a battle where the Colonials are soon thereafter lead by "serpents two and ten" to victory over their foes in an initial battle of a larger war.  Right after her vision, an initial strike on a Cylon base is lead by a dozen Vipers in the first military victory over the Cylons since the loss of the colonies.


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## wingsandsword (Aug 1, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> The entire government is based around 12 colonies. There are not 12 colonies anymore. There are a few ships alone in the universe. You are also forgetting the thousands of minor elected local official below them. The Twelve are there to represent each colony. None of those colonies exist anymore. Who are they representing exactly because I am sure somewhere in their political doctrine they mention "colony" and "colonies" as well as specific colonies. None of those colonies exist so it makes the doctrines giving each of the colonies a voice null and void.



 Funny, nobody in the fleet, not even Adama has argued this.  Even if the colonies are not accessable as physical entities, they still exist as political ones, with individual Colonists carrying strong nationalistic identities to those Colonies.  Governments in exile exist all the time in the real world, and the Colonial government of the fleet is easily a Government in exile.  By the same token, if the government is void, so is Adama's commission to act as an officer of that government, giving him no authority over his Battlestar.



> Your joking right?



No, I'm not.  Have you ever studied what happens when a military decides it knows better than the civilian government and decides to use force to back that assertion up?  That pretty much never goes well.  Every time it's backed by people who say that the civilian governement is corrupt, or traitorous, or hindering the war effort, and every time it's lead by people who think they know what they are doing, but they are too greedy for power or short sighted upon the military situation that they lose control of the larger picture.  Human history is littered with military tyrants who pushed aside the legitimate government because it was inconvenient to them, and it never rules wisely.  Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.



> It required military resources that were under *his* command. She went beyond his command and side swiped a military officer with bad news and took advantage of her emotional distress. Roslin was only looking out through the colored glasses of delusional mental breakdown.
> Waste their opprotunity on a military strike? You mean the military strike that was crucial for the survival of humanity.



 That strike apparently wasn't very crucial to the survival of humanity, the fleet survived without it.  Furthermore, the only reason those resources were under his command is she permitted them to be that way.  She was in charge, and delegated the military command to him.  As the President she made an executive decision that finding the location of Earth was more a important use of the captured Cylon raider than Adama's planned use of it as a trojan horse.  Adama objected, and being unable to deal with it like a professional military officer he decided to lead a coup.



> Roslin uses religion and deceit to manipulate others into a course of action she believes is right based on delusions.



_Alleged_ delusions.  One persons prophet is quite literally another persons madman.  Kinda the point of all of this.



> Because we all know Osama Bin Laden is very religious.



Y'know, I've been trying to avoid explicit references to real-world politics because this forum kinda frowns on things like that.  Suffice it to say, there are people of all major religions in the world, on all sides of major geopolitical affiliations who let religion be their primary source of decision making instead of science, and they are quite frequently elected to power democratically.


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## jasper (Aug 1, 2005)

Excuse me thousands of minor elected local official below them ??? What type of government need this many pencil pushers for a nation of 50K. Montgomery Al is city of 200k with 10 people on town council to include the mayor. Even if you add in the county you only get about 12 more people elected. Are the 12 colonies electing daggit catchers for each ship???
The president was wrong for not using the chain of command to get the arrow by sending the capture ship 
Adama was wrong for declaring martial law and should be shot. By his side. 
However since we don’t what is the exact chain of command in the colonies we can not say who had the highest legal power to order Starbuck on the mission. Can the president order Pvt Pyle to take that hill? Or does she have to order the Adama to take that hill?

There are 12 colonies because the survivors of colonies voted in the council of twelve. So who cares if Gemini has the largest population of survivors.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 1, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Um...I never said that. In fact, that doesn't even look like how I write. Where'd you pull that from?!


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## dravot (Aug 1, 2005)

Several points for the conversation:

She's having hallucinations/visions, not delusions.  She may be having delusions of grandeur, but they're caused by the hallucinations.

In real life, I'd agree with you that Kicking Bird is experiencing hallucinations and therefore delusions of her place in things, but in this *fictional* story, I'm willing to explore the notion that the hallucinations could be truthful and are marking her as the true prophet for this cycle of human history.  Why?  Because it's fiction.

As for the gubbermint, the Quorum is what they know, and as someone else pointed out, the 12 Colonies may no longer exist per se, they are still useful as forms of self-identity and political relations.  There's no way that they'd just trash hundreds of years (or however long) of history and tradition overnight.  In the long term, I could see that happening, and people would re-align under other, more useful delineations, but that's going to take some time to develop.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 1, 2005)

dravot said:
			
		

> She's having hallucinations/visions, not delusions.  She may be having delusions of grandeur, but they're caused by the hallucinations.




There are a lot of potential reasons for her delusions/visions, and in a desperate attempt to keep this thread from getting closed for getting too political, I'll list them:

1.  The visions are legit, she is a prophet.
2.  The visions are happening, but they are implanted somehow by the cylons.  We know they can do it - look at Baltar.
3.  She's having side effects from the drugs, and they are playing on the religious imagery of her culture.  Once the idea that they might be visions as opposed to hallucinations, they would tend to become self-sustaining.

Any other ideas as to possible explanations?


----------



## Endur (Aug 1, 2005)

As much as I hate to say it, I think it will turn out that the Cylons are giving her the visions.  The cylons are religious and are deliberately losing battles for unknown reasons.


----------



## dravot (Aug 1, 2005)

I don't think that the visions are cylon induced.  I think that we'd have had some indication of close contact with cylons, thus giving the opportunity to do so, and we haven't seen it.  Note that her visions started before she was face to face with the out-the-airlock-cylon.  I guess she could have been affected by Boomer, or possibly by the cylons pre-attack (ie, they affected many in gubbermint in the off chance that it'd pay off), but I'm just not seeing it.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Aug 1, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Any other ideas as to possible explanations?




The visions may be caused by the drugs, but that doesn't mean that she is not the prophet.  The prophecy says that a dying leader with be the salvation of humanity - the drug that *causes* the vision could well be what causes the visions that fulfill the prophecy.  The touch of the divine may well be the fact that she is taking that drug instead of some other treatment...


----------



## Sir Brennen (Aug 1, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> 3.  She's having side effects from the drugs, and they are playing on the religious imagery of her culture.  Once the idea that they might be visions as opposed to hallucinations, they would tend to become self-sustaining.
> 
> Any other ideas as to possible explanations?



Yes, the Prez is experiencing a very literal translation of the prophecy.  As you point out, she's seeing snakes possibly because the scriptures *say* she's suppose to see snakes.

However, what if not all the prophecy is quite so literal?  I think it was mentioned in another thread about those little fighter ships they fly around in... what do you call them?  Oh, yeah... *vipers*... are in Adama's prevue... and he is (was) indeed dieing, so I think there's plenty of wiggle room to assume he might be the actual prophet.

It would be very interesting indeed if the actual prophecy is being played out on a metaphorical level with Adama at the center, while a literal, false version is being only superficially fulfilled by the prez (either because of her hallucinations or cylons beaming stuff into her head.)

I wondering how the Arrow of Apollo will fit into pointing the way to Earth.  Will it have a microchip that activates a computer in the Temple of Athena?  Or will it be a symbol which the civilian survivors rally around (believing again in its literal truth?) and the pointing the way to Earth is fulfilled in a way that's not really recognized for what it is (like Six providing Baltar with some clue).  I mean, you ever noticed how, when the landing bays are pulled in, that Galactica kinda looks like an arrow?


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 1, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Your joking right? Adama's leadership is based on military structure.




Which only has legitimate authority as a result of the operation of law. Subverting the law by staging a military coup undermines his authority, and eliminates any argument he may have for moral superiority. The only thing he has left to fall back on as a justification for his leadership at this point is the lie.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 1, 2005)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> However, what if not all the prophecy is quite so literal?  I think it was mentioned in another thread about those little fighter ships they fly around in... what do you call them?  Oh, yeah... *vipers*... are in Adama's prevue... and he is (was) indeed dieing, so I think there's plenty of wiggle room to assume he might be the actual prophet.




Very interesting.  The producers have mentioned that they are specifically tracking the number of Vipers in order to make sure they're consistent from episode to episode - what if they have another motive in keeping track?  The priestess indicated that it was the specific number of vipers that was relevant - how many did she say?


----------



## MaxKaladin (Aug 1, 2005)

Without getting into forbidden territory for these forums, I suspect we can discuss Roslin's visions/hallucinations until we're blue in the face because our opinion ultimately depends on our feelings about religion in real life because the show seems so "real" and because the colonials are presented as being so similar to us.  

Some thoughts about the "visions":

The visions/hallucinations did not occur until the president got onto the drugs and, as I recall, they had to go out into the fleet to find a supply of the drug because it was not something typically carried by the Galactica.  This seems to offer a vector for the cylons to have introduced something to Roslin's body.  Some of the drug gathered from the fleet could have been provided by a cylon agent who tantied it with nanites or whatever the cylons use to introduce visions in people like Baltar.  

Roslin's visions were not terribly specific prior to her conversations with the religious leader (Elosha, IIRC).  It is possible that these conversations helped "guide" her hallucinations.  

I am most disappointed that there does not appear to be at least one skeptic besides Zarek (who is skeptical of anything that might interfere with his quest for power) on the Quorum.  

We do not know what Adama had planned as he was shot before he could act any further than removing the president.  He may well have intended to convene the Quorum and ask them to elect a replacement for Roslin until Baltar's fate is known.   

If Tigh and Adama are deposed in favor of a civilian government, it would seem logical that Starbuck and Apollo would probably be in line for command positions because they have proven themselves loyal to the President over Adama.

Finally, I would point out that the original Galactica also had its prophet who had a lot of believers in the fleet -- Count Iblis.  He, as I recall, turned out to be most emphatically NOT a nice, er, being.  I submit that if someone IS really giving Roslin actual "visions" (which I doubt) then there is no guarantee that she is actually being given them by the gods the colonials worship.  Given how Six is talking about Kobol, I wonder if there isn't something bad there that hasn't been reaching out to Roslin now that she's close (compared to being in the colonies).


----------



## Safana Cain (Aug 1, 2005)

Some confusions that need to be cleared up: democracy is not synonomous with bureaucracy.  In fact, in the history of political philosophy, they are often considered opposites.  Democracy is the process of deliberation among a society's components.  Bureaucracy is a rigid hierarchical structure which collects and monopolizes information to a central figure and then dispenses direction.  In a democracy like the Colonials, which mimics are own debased notions of democracy, it is a representative democracy which combines the two in favor of bureaucracy.  Furthermore, the military itself is an extremely bureaucratic entity.  Bureaucracies have the tendency towards "informational entropy," as information travels up the chain of command.  As for example, the Galactica jumping to the coordinates without the fleet.  So the idea of martial law being a panacea for humanity's situation is magical thinking at best.  Though I can see the extermination of the species being a situation in which martial law is declared.  However, we have not been given any sign of what life is like on the civilian ships.

Tom Zarek is right in the end.  Society is just continuing as if things weren't any different, while the fleet needs to put every available resource into improving their situation.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 1, 2005)

The show is all about appearances and reasonable doubt.

Is Gaius crazy or being influenced?  How can we be sure?
Is Ellen working with Zarek, a cylon or just a selfish barfly?
Is the Prez having delusions, experiencing truth or a combination of the two?
Is one of the Adamas a cylon?  If so, which one?
Is Gaeta a cylon?  Did he intentionally make a mistake in episode 2.1?
Do the cylons really have a plan, and if so, what is it?
Are the cylons of one mind, or are there factions?
WHY did the cylons make so many copies of mankind, especially when there are so few humans left?

The president's state of mind is an example:  the show is very, very careful to tread a line.  We can't say _for sure_ that she's having hallucinations from the drugs, the withdrawl or something else entirely.  Note where she got the latest batch from: Geminon ceremonial rights.  It's most likely the same kind of material taken by oracles of their faith.  Many of the worlds shamans were known to take primitive psychotropics to induce visions...is this a case of that?  Do the visions bear any truth?  Is it all coincidence?  Could it just be simple stress?  Is this part of the cylons plan?  People seem suprised that the quorom might be so ready to accept the Prez as a prophet.  I'm not.  Less than 50,000 members of mankind remains, afawk.  Billions of lives were snuffed out,  nearly instantaneously.  A prophet is supposed to appear in mankinds darkest hour....could it be any darker outside than it is now?  Keep in mind that these 50,000- have been on the run and under heavy stress for months, now.  Deeply religious people accepting that their faith foretold the end-times is hardly unknown, in real life or in fiction.

I think we're going to see some people accept the president, others reject her as a prophet but look to her (and IMHO, eventually Baltar) as a way to defy the military...and some who won't accept her, either way.  They cylons clearly have a script they're running; as long as mankind goes north instead of south, they get to live.  But WHY?  That's the question.


----------



## ecliptic (Aug 2, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Funny, nobody in the fleet, not even Adama has argued this. Even if the colonies are not accessable as physical entities, they still exist as political ones, with individual Colonists carrying strong nationalistic identities to those Colonies. Governments in exile exist all the time in the real world, and the Colonial government of the fleet is easily a Government in exile. By the same token, if the government is void, so is Adama's commission to act as an officer of that government, giving him no authority over his Battlestar.




I am not Adama am i? Military law is technically completely different. The great thing about the military is the fact that they listen to their commander no matter what and they are absolutely essential to the survival of the human race.



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> No, I'm not. Have you ever studied what happens when a military decides it knows better than the civilian government and decides to use force to back that assertion up? That pretty much never goes well. Every time it's backed by people who say that the civilian governement is corrupt, or traitorous, or hindering the war effort, and every time it's lead by people who think they know what they are doing, but they are too greedy for power or short sighted upon the military situation that they lose control of the larger picture. Human history is littered with military tyrants who pushed aside the legitimate government because it was inconvenient to them, and it never rules wisely. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.




History is also filled with examples of a corrupt government being shattered through military might. For as many corrupt leaders there have been as many praised leaders. Plus human history has never shown us what its like to be backed in such a corner is they are in BSG.



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> That strike apparently wasn't very crucial to the survival of humanity, the fleet survived without it. Furthermore, the only reason those resources were under his command is she permitted them to be that way. She was in charge, and delegated the military command to him. As the President she made an executive decision that finding the location of Earth was more a important use of the captured Cylon raider than Adama's planned use of it as a trojan horse. Adama objected, and being unable to deal with it like a professional military officer he decided to lead a coup.




You mean they fell back on plan B that only succeeded because the cylons let it succeed? There is no such thing as a military executive decision. This isn't an American Republic and the President is not the leader of the armed forces.



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Alleged delusions. One persons prophet is quite literally another persons madman. Kinda the point of all of this.




Makes me wonder if you would believe one of our President's if he said God told him to invade Britain.



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Y'know, I've been trying to avoid explicit references to real-world politics because this forum kinda frowns on things like that. Suffice it to say, there are people of all major religions in the world, on all sides of major geopolitical affiliations who let religion be their primary source of decision making instead of science, and they are quite frequently elected to power democratically.




You need to really see the difference between letting the teachings of a religion guide you and letting delusions guide you. 

If a President in America was declaring they are having visions from God telling them which countries to attack, they would quickly be removed from power.



			
				dravot said:
			
		

> I don't think that the visions are cylon induced. I think that we'd have had some indication of close contact with cylons, thus giving the opportunity to do so, and we haven't seen it. Note that her visions started before she was face to face with the out-the-airlock-cylon. I guess she could have been affected by Boomer, or possibly by the cylons pre-attack (ie, they affected many in gubbermint in the off chance that it'd pay off), but I'm just not seeing it.




Something like this would only crop up when cylons decided to broadcast the signal.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 2, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> I am not Adama am i? Military law is technically completely different. The great thing about the military is the fact that they listen to their commander no matter what and they are absolutely essential to the survival of the human race.




And yet, Adama has no actual authority without the rule of law. Overthrowing the rule of law nullifies any basis that anyone has for "listening to him". So it isn't really "they listen to their commander no matter what" is it?



> _This isn't an American Republic and the President is not the leader of the armed forces._





You know of governments where the chief executive cannot give orders to the military?



> _If a President in America was declaring they are having visions from God telling them which countries to attack, they would quickly be removed from power._





Of course, the United States isn't unified by a single religion, and we doesn't have a universal tradition of waiting for a prophet to guide humanity through danger to reunite humans with the Lords of Kobol. The colonists do. You might note that the Quorum of Twelve took Roslin's visions pretty seriously. More to the point, thus far, Roslin's visions have been _correct_. It is hard to argue with success.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 2, 2005)

By the way: Adama might have the right to lead the Galactica and the military - but he has no authority about the civilian ships. At least he wouldn´t if he was a military leader in a typical modern society. 
The local military base has no more right to tell the private citizen what to do than any other citizen (at least as long as it doens´t concern military property). A soldier can´t go out and take someone´s car because he needs it for a military operation, unless the government has authorized him so (and even that would have to fall under very specific rules and laws, since most societies allow and enforce personal ownership)

So, Adama (and Tigh) don´t have any legal control about the fleet except the Galactica and its fighters.


----------



## jasper (Aug 2, 2005)

I am most disappointed that there does not appear to be at least one skeptic besides Zarek (who is skeptical of anything that might interfere with his quest for power) on the Quorum. .. 
However Zarek hates the military more than he does the prez. So he may just be going along to get rid of one big enemy , so he can get back to his normal hunting ground.


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## WizarDru (Aug 2, 2005)

jasper said:
			
		

> I am most disappointed that there does not appear to be at least one skeptic besides Zarek (who is skeptical of anything that might interfere with his quest for power) on the Quorum. ..
> However Zarek hates the military more than he does the prez. So he may just be going along to get rid of one big enemy , so he can get back to his normal hunting ground.




Skeptical of what?  The President's claim of prophecy?  We don't really know one way or the other.  We know a few of them are clearly convinced and were most likely ready to believe.  Let's remember, the situation plays heavily towards the prophecy.  As for the rest, we have no idea what level of skepticism they DO have.  They didn't all fawn over her and kneel and pray.  It's a reality of the show that we don't have time to meet most of the quorom as characters; for that matter, we don't know if Zarek accepts or rejects the president's claim.  We know him to be a political animal, though, so he'll use the situation, no matter what his belief.

I suspect that we'll see some skepticism and arguments next episode...but Tigh's pushed the quorom into a corner...and a cornered animal is the most dangerous kind.


----------



## ecliptic (Aug 2, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And yet, Adama has no actual authority without the rule of law. Overthrowing the rule of law nullifies any basis that anyone has for "listening to him". So it isn't really "they listen to their commander no matter what" is it?




You obviously know nothing about military command. 



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You know of governments where the chief executive cannot give orders to the military?




One that seperates civilian and military government.




			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Of course, the United States isn't unified by a single religion, and we doesn't have a universal tradition of waiting for a prophet to guide humanity through danger to reunite humans with the Lords of Kobol. The colonists do. You might note that the Quorum of Twelve took Roslin's visions pretty seriously. More to the point, thus far, Roslin's visions have been _correct_. It is hard to argue with success.




Yet there are many of the colonists who do not believe in the Lords. Their government isn't unified by a religion either. The majority do not control the government.

The Quorum are as desperate as the rest of humanity. It is easy to convince people of fallacies when they are under such distress.

Really tell me which visions were ever correct?



			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> By the way: Adama might have the right to lead the Galactica and the military - but he has no authority about the civilian ships. At least he wouldn´t if he was a military leader in a typical modern society.
> The local military base has no more right to tell the private citizen what to do than any other citizen (at least as long as it doens´t concern military property). A soldier can´t go out and take someone´s car because he needs it for a military operation, unless the government has authorized him so (and even that would have to fall under very specific rules and laws, since most societies allow and enforce personal ownership)
> 
> So, Adama (and Tigh) don´t have any legal control about the fleet except the Galactica and its fighters.




Which then the Galactica could leave the civilian populace undefended. It would be smart to listen to the military.



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> I suspect that we'll see some skepticism and arguments next episode...but Tigh's pushed the quorom into a corner...and a cornered animal is the most dangerous kind.




Whatever the civilian ships do, it will be at their own risk.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 2, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Really tell me which visions were ever correct?




The visions of the Cylon flying out the airlock.

The vision identifying the planet as Kobol.

It should also be mentioned that Roslyn did NOT read the scrolls prior to her visions, which is why her seeing the 12 snakes on the podium surprised the woman who was the expert on it. She has admitted to reading them SINCE then, but these visions are definitely something more than just halucinations.


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 2, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> You obviously know nothing about military command.



It seems to me, anyway, that you obviously know nothing about how society actually functions, if you believe that military commanders don't receive their authority through the rule of law.



> One that seperates civilian and military government.



No, an actual example. An example of a government on Earth where the executive leader isn't the commander in chief of the miliatary, too.



> Which then the Galactica could leave the civilian populace undefended. It would be smart to listen to the military.



Which would make the whole thing pointless, with the remaining 90% of the human population wiped out.



> Whatever the civilian ships do, it will be at their own risk.



The same is true of the military, running the risk of bullheadedness and needless macho posturing wiping out humanity. There's something to be proud of.


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 2, 2005)

Oh. My. God.

Today I earned my "Utter Geek" badge, actually arguing real-world politics via a television show. I've never gotten wrapped up like that before.

Today I am proud. And saddened.


----------



## ecliptic (Aug 2, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> It seems to me, anyway, that you obviously know nothing about how society actually functions, if you believe that military commanders don't receive their authority through the rule of law.




Military has their own laws. Under those laws you are required to obey your commander and follow all orders given out. Those military laws will still exist even if the civilian government gets wiped out.




			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> No, an actual example. An example of a government on Earth where the executive leader isn't the commander in chief of the miliatary, too.




Got an actual example of 12 planets coming together under one flag?




			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Which would make the whole thing pointless, with the remaining 90% of the human population wiped out.




If they want to survive they better listen to what the military says. Their civilian government isn't going to protect them from cylons.



			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> The same is true of the military, running the risk of bullheadedness and needless macho posturing wiping out humanity. There's something to be proud of.




It is the civilian populace's decision and if they decide they do not want military protection they can fight the cylons on their own.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 3, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> If they want to survive they better listen to what the military says.




Um...so the civilians are just slaves/cattle/-insert appropriate metaphor here-?!


----------



## wingsandsword (Aug 3, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Military has their own laws. Under those laws you are required to obey your commander and follow all orders given out.



You don't really appear to have much of a conception of what military law really is.  A serviceman is bound to obey the _lawful_ orders of his commanding officer.  However, in both law and precedent they are bound to disobey illegal orders ("just following orders" has a long history of not being a legal defense, and I won't cite examples to avoid going too far into real world politics here).  You better be very sure it's an illegal order though, and it'll probably take a hearing (at least) to sort it out afterwards.  An order to arrest the President on the grounds she gave an order that countermanded your CO in the real world would be an illegal order, and would be the sort of thing you'd likely end up eventually court martialled for when the dust settles if you followed.

Orders from the civilian commander in chief, the President, trump any military order, _that's _ military law.  The military is an instrument of policy to carry out the directives of the civilian command authority, they are *not* the makers of that policy, not in any democratic government, which the Colonies are.  The military are servants of the public, not their masters.  Roslin gave Adama a wide berth in setting military policy in recognition of his experience and her inexperience, but in a crisis situation she still reserved, and exercised, the legal right to set the direction of things.  The Quorum has backed her on this, and began to indicate that Adama's actions where illegal and unfounded, hence Tigh also ignoring the rule of law and furthering the coup.  

Military officers derive their authority to act from a commission from their government, to act as officers of that government and exercise its policies and laws.  When an officer ceases to be a part of the legitimate chain of command of exercising those policies and laws (like Adama disregarding the President), their authority as an officer is void, and their orders carry no legal weight.  

It's the exact same model we've seen play out countless times throughout history, where a democracy is overthrown by a military junta.  I'm frankly astounded that you say that military coups are lauded by the people as a good thing.  They often are, at first, as protection and safety rise and crime falls.  They come to power under the pretense of providing stability in a dangerous time or controlling the spread of a controversial ideology.  Public acceptance goes down rapidly as the people chafe under martial law and unaccountable rulers.  Eventually counter-insurgency groups build up, often with remnants of the prior government, and a resistance movement begins.  Depending on the power of the junta, the skill of the resistance, and the direction of the popular sentiment, the resistance is quickly quashed, overthrows the dictatorship, or it drags out into a long civil war.  

History has also shown us one thing, that military dictatorships established by the overthrow of a democratic civilian government never hand power back over peacefully.  Once in power, they're in power for life.  That's the fear going through each member of the Quorum, that Tigh (and Adama if he recovers) will try and rule through force and fear for the rest of their lives, and they likely have plenty of precedent from the history of their own worlds for that fear.


----------



## MaxKaladin (Aug 3, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Skeptical of what?



The other guy quoted me.  I meant he is skeptical of any claim that might interfere with his quest for power.  I think Zarek is one of those people who always looks at everything others do in terms of politics and acts accordingly.  I think his first thought is that this is some sort of maneuver by Roslin to either thwart Adama/Tigh, thwart Zarek himself or both.  He's going to examine the situation closely and do whatever benefits him politically.  The idea that the visions might be genuine will come only after that and he will continue to take whatever public stance he thinks will do him the most good politically regardless of what he really believes about prophecy.


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 3, 2005)

EDITED: Upon consideration, though I do feel strongly, my post was needlessly inflammatory. Forget it.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 3, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> You don't really appear to have much of a conception of what military law really is. A serviceman is bound to obey the _lawful_ orders of his commanding officer. However, in both law and precedent they are bound to disobey illegal orders ("just following orders" has a long history of not being a legal defense, and I won't cite examples to avoid going too far into real world politics here). You better be very sure it's an illegal order though, and it'll probably take a hearing (at least) to sort it out afterwards.




I remember one of my coworkers being irritated that 'Star Trek: Insurrection' was so named.  As a former member of the navy, he contended the movie technically should have been called 'Star Trek: Refusal to Obey an Illegal Order'.  It is a soldier's DUTY to refuse an illegal order, though as wingandsword says, it's a grey area.

To quote the Army's ethics codebook: "_Morally, soldiers must follow orders because they said they would. They voluntarily entered the Army and accepted the benefits the Army offered in exchange. Thus, soldiers have a prima facie moral obligation to follow all legal orders. The Army specifically states that soldiers should not obey illegal orders. However, beyond war crimes, it does not specify which orders are illegal._"

Firing on helpless civilians or surrendered soldiers with the intent of murder, for example, is an illegal order.  The 20th century is full of military tribunals where the manifest illegaility of an order is assumed to supercede a solider's obligation to follow orders (though if he is unaware of the manifest illegality, only his superior will be held responsible).


----------



## ecliptic (Aug 3, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> An order to arrest the President on the grounds she gave an order that countermanded your CO in the real world would be an illegal order, and would be the sort of thing you'd likely end up eventually court martialled for when the dust settles if you followed.
> 
> Orders from the civilian commander in chief, the President, trump any military order, that's military law. The military is an instrument of policy to carry out the directives of the civilian command authority, they are not the makers of that policy, not in any democratic government, which the Colonies are.




The colonies are not under American law. The original BSG Adama is the civilian leader _and_ the military leader. Under the new show the two are completely different.

You going to use America as that example of a democratic government? We are not a Democracy, we are a Constitutional Representive Republic. 



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> The military are servants of the public, not their masters. Roslin gave Adama a wide berth in setting military policy in recognition of his experience and her inexperience, but in a crisis situation she still reserved, and exercised, the legal right to set the direction of things. The Quorum has backed her on this, and began to indicate that Adama's actions where illegal and unfounded, hence Tigh also ignoring the rule of law and furthering the coup.




From what I can tell she had no choice but to let Adama control the military as she is not in control of either.

The Quorum hasn't done anything. The Quorum _didn't_ have a chance to do anything. 



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Military officers derive their authority to act from a commission from their government, to act as officers of that government and exercise its policies and laws. When an officer ceases to be a part of the legitimate chain of command of exercising those policies and laws (like Adama disregarding the President), their authority as an officer is void, and their orders carry no legal weight.




Roslin is not the equivalent of an American President. The America President is the leader of the armed forces. It is not the case with the 12 colonies.



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> It's the exact same model we've seen play out countless times throughout history, where a democracy is overthrown by a military junta. I'm frankly astounded that you say that military coups are lauded by the people as a good thing. They often are, at first, as protection and safety rise and crime falls. They come to power under the pretense of providing stability in a dangerous time or controlling the spread of a controversial ideology. Public acceptance goes down rapidly as the people chafe under martial law and unaccountable rulers. Eventually counter-insurgency groups build up, often with remnants of the prior government, and a resistance movement begins. Depending on the power of the junta, the skill of the resistance, and the direction of the popular sentiment, the resistance is quickly quashed, overthrows the dictatorship, or it drags out into a long civil war.




All that you described is impossible when there are only 50,000 people left and you can account for each one of them.



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> History has also shown us one thing, that military dictatorships established by the overthrow of a democratic civilian government never hand power back over peacefully. Once in power, they're in power for life. That's the fear going through each member of the Quorum, that Tigh (and Adama if he recovers) will try and rule through force and fear for the rest of their lives, and they likely have plenty of precedent from the history of their own worlds for that fear.




History has never showed us what it is like to be the last few remaining humans left. While a giant cylon fleet is trying to constantly kill them. So using history and comparing it to an event that has never happened in history is pointless.


----------



## wingsandsword (Aug 3, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Roslin is not the equivalent of an American President. The America President is the leader of the armed forces. It is not the case with the 12 colonies.



Actually, the show has gone out of it's way to show that the government of the Twelve Colonies is a direct parallel to the modern United States of America, he's even said it himself:

1. An elected President and Vice President as the supreme executive (Instead of a President/Prime Minister, Governor General/Prime Minister, Monarch/Prime Minister combination like most other modern human governments).
2. A series of Cabinet Secretaries as a chain of succession in the event of an emergency (Instead of Ministers as the title, again, fairly unusual government title).
3. The shot of Roslin's swearing in aboard Colonial One was an _intentional_ reference to Lyndon Baines Johnson's swearing in aboard Air Force One after the Kennedy assassination.
4. The "Lest We Forget" picture in Roslin's office is also an intentional reference to the famous picture of firefighters raising the flag at Ground Zero after the 9/11 attacks.
5. The radio callsign of the executive transport is Colonial One, a blatant reference to the Air Force One/Marine One/Navy One/Army One/Coast Guard One/Executive One radio call signs.
6. They wear the exact same clothes as modern day north Americans, their cities even have the same street signs.
7. They drive the exact same vehicles (humvees, deuce-and-a-half trucks) in their military.
8. The series creator has the Quorum of Twelve is intentionally an analogy to the U.S. Senate, with some elements of the UN Security Council, and that there was a much larger second house of legislature which is currently inactive, as well as an independent Judiciary that has yet to be reconstituted (from his online comments).
9. Direct quote from Ronald Moore, series creator in his official podcast for "Colonial Day"



			
				BSG Creator Ronald D. Moore Official Podcast Commentary said:
			
		

> Unlike the original series, I didn't want the political leadership of the rag-tag fleet to be strawmen for Adama to knock down over and over again... I didn't like the notion that what you really need is just a good smart, military man who can control and run everything. I liked playing the natural tension between the civilian and the military authority in this situation. I wanted to explore what it really meant to be a democracy in a republican form of government. And it says something interesting about the Colonial society, that they do value and treasure and place great emphasis on the fact that their government is still with them.
> 
> The entire Laura Roslin plotline throughout the series is really a tribute to the fact that how strongly these people believe in their system of government, how fundamental the notions of democracy and representation and the vote and equal rights -- the sort of things that in this country, the United States, are also built into our culture. We have the fundamental belief in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights... I wanted the rag-tag fleet to mirror our society in that way.



The creator has said outright that the show is meant to be viewed through the lens of contemporary American civil values and legal/cultural traditions (except for the Colonial religion), and that in the long run, even the series creator intends to depict Adama/Tigh as being in the wrong.

It was never said that Adama had absolute control of the military, or that he was not ultimately accountable to Roslin.  In the miniseries, immediately after the attacks, Roslin agreed to _de facto_ share power with Adama, with Adama dealing with military affairs and Roslin dealing with civil affairs.  This was also when she was getting used to the Presidency, and wasn't ready for the power vested in her.  Roslin, being unskilled in strategy and more a career bureaucrat knew that she should't be micromanaging military affairs, and wasn't particularly interested in the details of the war.  However, after having several months to get used to the office and come to terms with her responsibilities, in a situation where the fate of the entire fleet was at stake: the chance to retrieve the relic which could tell the fleet the location of Earth, she exercised Executive authority and countermanded a military order, which she hadn't done before but was still within her legal authority.


----------



## ecliptic (Aug 3, 2005)

I am sure you have a link wingsandsword.


----------



## wingsandsword (Aug 3, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> I am sure you have a link wingsandsword.



http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/ For the podcasts in general

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/111/bsg_ep111_FULL.mp3  For the Colonial Day commentary specifically.  The part I quoted is between 3:55 to 5:54 in the file, quite early on as he's introducing the episode.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 3, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Military has their own laws. Under those laws you are required to obey your commander and follow all orders given out. Those military laws will still exist even if the civilian government gets wiped out.




Umm, no they don't. The laws that the military operate under, in every government in existence, are derived from the government itself. No government, no military laws. To cite a very concrete example - the UCMJ in the U.S. exists only because Congress established it, and the President endorsed it. Without them, it has no force.



> _Got an actual example of 12 planets coming together under one flag?_





You mean like, say 13 colonies uniting in one government?



> _If they want to survive they better listen to what the military says. Their civilian government isn't going to protect them from cylons._





And who exactly is the Galactica crew looking to to supply new recruits and the support infrastructure necessary to continue operating? They are interdependent.


----------



## jasper (Aug 3, 2005)

the UCMJ in the U.S. exists only because Congress established it, and the President endorsed it. Without them, it has no force....
No. If Dc would get nuked today, the jarheads would still be here and most would follow orders of their commanders. Those like Apollo would either be shot right away (like a cowardly female in last week episode) or in the brig. Apollo is in the brig and the only reason the female did not get shot was in was not in the story line.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 3, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> You obviously know nothing about military command.




Get back to something resembling reality in your argument. Military structure _only_ has authority derived from the government - the civilian government. Without the rule of law, "military command" has no legitimacy. This has been _explicitly_ pointed out in the series by Apollo, a point you conveniently have forgotten. His quote concerning whether lawful elections should be held: "If there is no law, then you aren't President, I'm not a captain, and I don't owe you anything." If your "argument" (to dignify your specious ramblings far more than they deserve) was true, then Apollo would still be a captain even if the civilian government didn't follow the law. Obviously he doesn't consider that to be true, which means, like in the U.S. (for example) military authority is derived from ultimately the rule of law.



> _One that seperates civilian and military government._





Name one. Just one. Once you do that, then you might have an argument. Until then, you are just talking out of your rear end.



> _Yet there are many of the colonists who do not believe in the Lords. Their government isn't unified by a religion either. The majority do not control the government._





Except they certainly seem to. Note that when Roslin announced her visions to the quorum, they _immediately_ consulted the religious authority on hand for confirmation. No one said "hey, I don't believe this religious mubo-jumbo", they said "does she fit the prophecy". Your argument is pretty weak when compared to the actual actions we have seen taken by people on the show.



> _The Quorum are as desperate as the rest of humanity. It is easy to convince people of fallacies when they are under such distress._





Of course, they don't seem to think it is a fallacy. Just because you don't believe them doesn't mean that the Quorum or the populace at large doesn't. Thus far, there is no evidence that the majority won't believe her. No one who doesn't have something to gain from ignoring her has questioned the validity of her visions. In point of fact, the only people who have _seriously_ questioned the validity of her visions have been Adama, Tigh, and Helen. Even Zarek (thus far) seems to be going along with them.



> _Really tell me which visions were ever correct?_





Her vision of the captured cylon dying. Her identification of the new planet they found as Kobol. Her vision of the opera house. Should I continue?



> _Which then the Galactica could leave the civilian populace undefended. It would be smart to listen to the military.
> 
> Whatever the civilian ships do, it will be at their own risk._





In which case the military would be abandoning those they swore oaths to protect, as well as abandoning their wives, husbands, children, parents, and siblings. I think you need to rethink Galactica's position before you make yourself look sillier than you already do.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 3, 2005)

jasper said:
			
		

> No. If Dc would get nuked today, the jarheads would still be here and most would follow orders of their commanders. Those like Apollo would either be shot right away (like a cowardly female in last week episode) or in the brig. Apollo is in the brig and the only reason the female did not get shot was in was not in the story line.




No, you are not understanding the point. If DC got nuked today, the UCMJ would still be in force, because the last lawful orders given by the civilian government would validate the UCMJ. However, if Congress decided to repeal the UCMJ, they could, and the military would have no choice but to go along with it, so long as it wanted to retain legitimacy. If DC got nuked and a subsequent replacement set of lawfully elected (or chosen) legislators (and executive) were elected, and they revoked the UCMJ, they would be within their legal rights to do so.

If the Joint Chiefs of Staff decided to depose the President, then they would forfeit their authority under the UCMJ. In point of fact, they would become criminals, and any soldier would be perfectly free to ignore their orders and do whatever he wanted. They would have no _legal_ right to command anyone at that point, since the military hierarchy would have no legitimacy.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 3, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> However, if Congress decided to repeal the UCMJ, they could, and the military would have no choice but to go along with it, so long as it wanted to retain legitimacy. If DC got nuked and a subsequent replacement set of lawfully elected (or chosen) legislators (and executive) were elected, and they revoked the UCMJ, they would be within their legal rights to do so.




I think this point is the stickler for some folks.  Adama clearly respects the law and the government (and I don't think he makes a distinction as a 'civilian' government, per se...it's HIS government).  The issue came down to this: Adama has the actual power with the threat of violence; Roslin has the power through the legal system and the expectation that 'those rough men' are members of that society and value that system.  It's clear and obvious that Adama COULD sieze power without any trouble...the issue is why he would want to, short of being a brutal dictator sitting over the last vestiges of mankind.

That is to say: Adama/Tigh can rule through the use of force, and "win", in as much as they posses all the weapons, training and leverage.  BUT, the populace empowers that military, and should they sieze power by force, they surrender all legitimacy, effectively betraying the trust of the society that empowered them and provided the infrastructure that allowed that military to be assembled in the first place.  Zarek has a history of fighting that same power (and I think comparisons to Sein Fenn are intentional with him), and is an illustration of what that could bring.

Further, the assumption is that said leader would have the stomach to perform the violence necessary to enforce a Junta.  Next episode, we clearly see that Tigh is going to have use force against peaceful resistance, and is likely to make a bad thing worse.  How can you protect a fleet that fears you nearly as much as the enemy you're protecting them from?  Adama will have a real challenge ahead of him, when he regains consciousness.



Side note: Please, please, PLEASE keep this discussion civil.  I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, but ad hominem attacks do not become us.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 3, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> History has never showed us what it is like to be the last few remaining humans left. While a giant cylon fleet is trying to constantly kill them. So using history and comparing it to an event that has never happened in history is pointless.




This is why I don't think that anyone would expect life to just keep on going as before.  I would think that once the survival of the species is constantly at stake the ideas of individual liberty and the other things we expect today would become quaint relics of a past that the Cylons nuked out of existance, and in some cases a detriment to the chances of keeping the species alive.  You can't act like the fleet is just a colony, it's a group of ships that carry the last known humans in existance and is under constant attack from Cylons who seek to finish off thier war of genocide.  I don't think you would get a ton of resistance to military rule, people would want security, they would want protection from the constant Cylon menace that wiped out thier planets and way of life.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 3, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> This is why I don't think that anyone would expect life to just keep on going as before. I would think that once the survival of the species is constantly at stake the ideas of individual liberty and the other things we expect today would become quaint relics of a past that the Cylons nuked out of existance, and in some cases a detriment to the chances of keeping the species alive.




One man's quaint relic is another man's basis for society and only comfort in a very desperate situation.  Let's not forget, Tom Zarek is a revolutionary who represented an oppressed group on Sagittaron - he'd rather have a government of civilians than the military any day.  Killed by the cylons or killed by an oppresive military regime...dead is dead.  The military is not the be-all end-all; let's not forget that Adama's first reaction during the miniseries was..."Let's get back in the fight!".  It was the civilian leader who demanded they protect the survivors, instead of abandon them.  Mankind is only still alive because of her direct actions, as far as the survivors know.  Ceding full control the military may strike many as pure folly, since they're still mired in THEIR quaint relics of tradition and protocol;  some of that serves them, and some doesn't.  It makes perfect sense to me that some folks would fight tooth and nail to retain their previous form of government.  Hell, Adama himself validated the president, and even gave her powerful ammunition to use against him with the knowledge that he LIED TO EVERY SINGLE SURVIVOR.  He only disagrees on when she should have superior authority on specific decisions; in his mind, she overstepped her authority on a military matter; something he considers her dangerously uninformed on and made clear that he believes he understands much better than she does how to survive.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 3, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> This is why I don't think that anyone would expect life to just keep on going as before.  I would think that once the survival of the species is constantly at stake the ideas of individual liberty and the other things we expect today would become quaint relics of a past that the Cylons nuked out of existance, and in some cases a detriment to the chances of keeping the species alive.  You can't act like the fleet is just a colony, it's a group of ships that carry the last known humans in existance and is under constant attack from Cylons who seek to finish off thier war of genocide.  I don't think you would get a ton of resistance to military rule, people would want security, they would want protection from the constant Cylon menace that wiped out thier planets and way of life.




Actually, I would think that under such circumstances people would cling to honored traditions in an effort to preserve as much "normality" as possible. Society might transform over time in response to the ongoing pressures, but in our history many people have stubbornly clung to "quaint relics" in the face of massive and unpleasant changes,


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 3, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Side note: Please, please, PLEASE keep this discussion civil.  I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, but ad hominem attacks do not become us.



Yeah, it's funny, all that inflammatory stuff I deleted from my post was said by others, anyway. :/


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## jasper (Aug 3, 2005)

ok I see your pt Storm Raven.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 3, 2005)

How long until the distinction of civilian and military is gone?  If you are conscripted for infantry service due to losses in combat with cylons do you have a choice?  You only have so many people and they all have to pull thier weight be it in combat for survival or in some support roles.  You won't really have an option for "I don't want to fight Cylons I want to write poetry..." if the human race is on the brink of extinction and there are more waves of Cylons to be fought off.  You have to do what you have to do to keep the species alive.  I'd like to see more of that addressed, which I'm guessing we will the coming weeks.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 3, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> How long until the distinction of civilian and military is gone? If you are conscripted for infantry service due to losses in combat with cylons do you have a choice? You only have so many people and they all have to pull thier weight be it in combat for survival or in some support roles. You won't really have an option for "I don't want to fight Cylons I want to write poetry..." if the human race is on the brink of extinction and there are more waves of Cylons to be fought off. You have to do what you have to do to keep the species alive. I'd like to see more of that addressed, which I'm guessing we will the coming weeks.




See, here's the thing: that sounds like you think the rest of the fleet is just twiddling their thumbs, waiting to be protected all day long.  We know that's demonstrably not true.  There's food production, goods and services, transport, large volumes of daily maintenance on each ship, infrastructure support, security and dozens of other daily tasks necessary to survival.  The military does not and cannot perform those functions, at least not all of them.  

One problem the fleet must be facing is economies of scale, or rather the lack of them.  If they only had twenty really large similar ships, it wouldn't be a problem.  However, they've got dozens of different ships.  That requires specialized pilots and maintenance crews...and most of these ships are being used for purposes they never were intended for.  Like the prison ship, which was never meant to hold people as long as they have, or a ship like Colonial One, which was meant to dock and be serviced hours after launch.  It's been MONTHS.  The effort of just keeping the fleet moving is a task unto itself.  This is, again, something the military isn't doing, and doesn't have the manpower to do.  The infrastucture is handled by the civilian government in what is best described as a herculean (possibly quixotic) effort.

I agree that they'll have to start recruiting heavily soon...but I suspect we'll see them starting to abandon ships eventually.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 3, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> See, here's the thing: that sounds like you think the rest of the fleet is just twiddling their thumbs, waiting to be protected all day long.  We know that's demonstrably not true.  There's food production, goods and services, transport, large volumes of daily maintenance on each ship, infrastructure support, security and dozens of other daily tasks necessary to survival.  The military does not and cannot perform those functions, at least not all of them.
> 
> One problem the fleet must be facing is economies of scale, or rather the lack of them.  If they only had twenty really large similar ships, it wouldn't be a problem.  However, they've got dozens of different ships.  That requires specialized pilots and maintenance crews...and most of these ships are being used for purposes they never were intended for.  Like the prison ship, which was never meant to hold people as long as they have, or a ship like Colonial One, which was meant to dock and be serviced hours after launch.  It's been MONTHS.  The effort of just keeping the fleet moving is a task unto itself.  This is, again, something the military isn't doing, and doesn't have the manpower to do.  The infrastucture is handled by the civilian government in what is best described as a herculean (possibly quixotic) effort.
> 
> I agree that they'll have to start recruiting heavily soon...but I suspect we'll see them starting to abandon ships eventually.




There's also the problem of training soldiers in a high-tech environment. While the skills needed to operate in a military environment may (in the past) have been relatively simple enough that they could be mastered by conscripts given moderate amounts of training, more technically advanced forces require increasing amounts of complex training to allow the troops to function compentently. And the BSG military environment is clearly no less technical than say, the military of the modern United States.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 3, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> See, here's the thing: that sounds like you think the rest of the fleet is just twiddling their thumbs, waiting to be protected all day long.  We know that's demonstrably not true.  There's food production, goods and services, transport, large volumes of daily maintenance on each ship, infrastructure support, security and dozens of other daily tasks necessary to survival.  The military does not and cannot perform those functions, at least not all of them.
> 
> One problem the fleet must be facing is economies of scale, or rather the lack of them.  If they only had twenty really large similar ships, it wouldn't be a problem.  However, they've got dozens of different ships.  That requires specialized pilots and maintenance crews...and most of these ships are being used for purposes they never were intended for.  Like the prison ship, which was never meant to hold people as long as they have, or a ship like Colonial One, which was meant to dock and be serviced hours after launch.  It's been MONTHS.  The effort of just keeping the fleet moving is a task unto itself.  This is, again, something the military isn't doing, and doesn't have the manpower to do.  The infrastucture is handled by the civilian government in what is best described as a herculean (possibly quixotic) effort.
> 
> I agree that they'll have to start recruiting heavily soon...but I suspect we'll see them starting to abandon ships eventually.




Well those are the people in the support positions and I agree with the rest pretty much.  I'm just wondering how many refugees are there there were not part of the original crew compliments of the various ships?  How are they using excess manpower they have?  Who is in control of that manpower?  Just things I'd like to see addressed in future episodes.  In the one show Zarek was serving himself at the bar since he said there was no reason for the person who did that job before to do it anymore since he wasn't getting paid to serve people.  Have they said if there are ships with production facilities on them?  The really need to make more munitions for one.


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## WizarDru (Aug 3, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Well those are the people in the support positions and I agree with the rest pretty much. I'm just wondering how many refugees are there there were not part of the original crew compliments of the various ships? How are they using excess manpower they have? Who is in control of that manpower? Just things I'd like to see addressed in future episodes. In the one show Zarek was serving himself at the bar since he said there was no reason for the person who did that job before to do it anymore since he wasn't getting paid to serve people. Have they said if there are ships with production facilities on them? The really need to make more munitions for one.




Spot on.  This is something I mentioned to dravot after the last episode: they should be running out of bullets, soon.  I also think you're right, there is a lot of manpower wastage going on.  How long that continues, I couldn't say.  The economics of society right now must be a huge mess.  Definitely some stuff I hope we see discussed or confronted soon.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 3, 2005)

Well, they did pick up some armaments in Season One, but resources will continue to be an issue.  On the other hand, I think they've got more storage capacity than they have actual Vipers, so they may be overstocked on ammo now.


----------



## wingsandsword (Aug 3, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Well, they did pick up some armaments in Season One, but resources will continue to be an issue.  On the other hand, I think they've got more storage capacity than they have actual Vipers, so they may be overstocked on ammo now.



Actually, it was in the mini-series when they visited an arsenal and completely re-armed the Galactica.  Since they've been so mindful of resources, like keeping track of how many Vipers they have in the fleet, they'll probably get to deal with that soon enough.

The geek in me loves that the creator is as aware of these things as we are.  Episodes like "Water" and "The Hand of God" show that they are making sure to keep account of consumable resources and the issues with this spaceborne exodus.  I remember with ST: Voyager they made a point of saying early on that they only had 40 Photon Torpedoes early on and no ability to replenish them, but they shot over 90 of them in the show with never explaining where more came from.  *shudder*  Fortunately, we've moved on beyond that.

Also, about resources, and even the whole military chain of command issue, something from an upcoming episode will be quite interesting, depending on how it plays out:
[sblock]Later in this season there is going to be a two-parter: Pegasus/Ressurection Ship, which is a re-do of the original series episode "The Living Legend" where they find another Battlestar which survived, the Battlestar Pegasus.  In the new BSG, much like the original one, the commander of Galactica and Pegasus will butt heads, but in new BSG, Pegasus is commanded by an Admiral Cain (played by Michelle Forbes, best known as Ensign Ro), who outranks Adama and pulls rank on him and his command.  In original BSG, this was a chance for the Galactica to get new equipment and crew, as when the Pegasus was lost at the end of the episode the Galactica took it's fighters who were deployed as well as personell who were onboard at the time.  In new BSG, it's a good chance to get a new supply of weapons, vipers, fuel, personell, depending on how Pegasus fares.[/sblock]


----------



## ecliptic (Aug 4, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/ For the podcasts in general
> 
> http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/111/bsg_ep111_FULL.mp3  For the Colonial Day commentary specifically.  The part I quoted is between 3:55 to 5:54 in the file, quite early on as he's introducing the episode.




He specifically talks about the civilian and military authorities as if they were 2 seperate entities. Then he goes on talking about how they value their system of government like we do. You pretty much gave me a bogus link.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Umm, no they don't. The laws that the military operate under, in every government in existence, are derived from the government itself. No government, no military laws. To cite a very concrete example - the UCMJ in the U.S. exists only because Congress established it, and the President endorsed it. Without them, it has no force.




If we lost our government the military would still do their job because of how chain of command is setup.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You mean like, say 13 colonies uniting in one government?




You mean our States were planets? OMG how did I miss that?



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Name one. Just one. Once you do that, then you might have an argument. Until then, you are just talking out of your rear end.




You mean because there isn't one now there can't ever be one? That logic seems narrow.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Except they certainly seem to. Note that when Roslin announced her visions to the quorum, they immediately consulted the religious authority on hand for confirmation. No one said "hey, I don't believe this religious mubo-jumbo", they said "does she fit the prophecy". Your argument is pretty weak when compared to the actual actions we have seen taken by people on the show.




You are refering to a few of the qurom. What else would the highly religious do?



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Of course, they don't seem to think it is a fallacy. Just because you don't believe them doesn't mean that the Quorum or the populace at large doesn't. Thus far, there is no evidence that the majority won't believe her. No one who doesn't have something to gain from ignoring her has questioned the validity of her visions. In point of fact, the only people who have seriously questioned the validity of her visions have been Adama, Tigh, and Helen. Even Zarek (thus far) seems to be going along with them.




Your kidding right? I read that and the first thing that came to my mind was that you need help. "Just because you don't believe them". ROFL. Dude Battlestar Galactica isn't real, the Quorom isn't real. 

The majority? The point of a republic is to give reperesentation to the minority so the majority doesn't mob rule.  You are advocating mob rule.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Her vision of the captured cylon dying. Her identification of the new planet they found as Kobol. Her vision of the opera house. Should I continue?




You mean visions that were obviously implanted by cylons?



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> In which case the military would be abandoning those they swore oaths to protect, as well as abandoning their wives, husbands, children, parents, and siblings. I think you need to rethink Galactica's position before you make yourself look sillier than you already do.




It would be the civilians decision. Military isn't abandoning anyone, they are letting them choose to leave.

It great though that you like to throw personal insults around. I think you need to cool down from this arguement because you are taking this way too seriously.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No, you are not understanding the point. If DC got nuked today, the UCMJ would still be in force, because the last lawful orders given by the civilian government would validate the UCMJ. However, if Congress decided to repeal the UCMJ, they could, and the military would have no choice but to go along with it, so long as it wanted to retain legitimacy. If DC got nuked and a subsequent replacement set of lawfully elected (or chosen) legislators (and executive) were elected, and they revoked the UCMJ, they would be within their legal rights to do so.




If Washington DC got nuked we would be under martial law because the then President would have us under martial law. But that is completely different than Battlestar Galactica's government.



			
				Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> This is why I don't think that anyone would expect life to just keep on going as before. I would think that once the survival of the species is constantly at stake the ideas of individual liberty and the other things we expect today would become quaint relics of a past that the Cylons nuked out of existance, and in some cases a detriment to the chances of keeping the species alive. You can't act like the fleet is just a colony, it's a group of ships that carry the last known humans in existance and is under constant attack from Cylons who seek to finish off thier war of genocide. I don't think you would get a ton of resistance to military rule, people would want security, they would want protection from the constant Cylon menace that wiped out thier planets and way of life.




Bingo.


----------



## TanisFrey (Aug 4, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I agree that they'll have to start recruiting heavily soon...but I suspect we'll see them starting to abandon ships eventually.



The OBSG had a requiteing campain going on in the backgroung, as in the eps., The Man with Nine Lives, guest staring Fred Astaire.

As for abandon ships I think that it is far more likely that will keep every ship flying to give breathing space to the civilian poplation.  If a ship becomes too damage to repair AND THEY HAVE THE TIME, I think they they would melt down all scrap metal attache sections of hall to other ships, ect.


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 4, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> You mean our States were planets? OMG how did I miss that?



Your system for attempting to support your views completely baffles me. You're claiming that... what, nothing like a dozen independent groups have ever attempted to form a shared government? Seriously, you're not making a point of any kind when you first claim that your view is correct "because," and when people point out logical reasons why it might not be, you respond with meaningless stuff like the above.

Have you ever successfully convinced anyone that you were right about anything?



> You mean because there isn't one now there can't ever be one? That logic seems narrow.



Not nearly as narrow as your logic, that the BSG universe has to be different from every human government. Think about what you're saying: you're not defending your point about the military and executive governments, you're saying it's not impossible. So what if it's not impossible. We're talking about humans here. Simple logic -- really super-basic simple logic -- says they're likely to act like humans.

What do you think your above sentence did to support your argument about militaries that aren't under the supervision of the executive branch?



> You mean visions that were obviously implanted by cylons?



Wherefrom this "obvious?" How is it so obvious?



> It would be the civilians decision. Military isn't abandoning anyone, they are letting them choose to leave.



Are you familiar with the _concept_ of responsibility?



> It great though that you like to throw personal insults around. I think you need to cool down from this arguement because you are taking this way too seriously.



I suggest you re-read your own material, Mr. Pot.



> If Washington DC got nuked we would be under martial law because the then President would have us under martial law.



BZZZZZT. Incorrect. I recommend a basic course in government.


----------



## ecliptic (Aug 4, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Your system for attempting to support your views completely baffles me. You're claiming that... what, nothing like a dozen independent groups have ever attempted to form a shared government? Seriously, you're not making a point of any kind when you first claim that your view is correct "because," and when people point out logical reasons why it might not be, you respond with meaningless stuff like the above.




The point is that Battlestar Galactica isn't real and there is nothing such as a situation that it can be compared to. But you over zealous people seem to want it to somehow be real. 



			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Not nearly as narrow as your logic, that the BSG universe has to be different from every human government. Think about what you're saying: you're not defending your point about the military and executive governments, you're saying it's not impossible. So what if it's not impossible. We're talking about humans here. Simple logic -- really super-basic simple logic -- says they're likely to act like humans.
> 
> What do you think your above sentence did to support your argument about militaries that aren't under the supervision of the executive branch?




The government is setup like the writers set it up. It is obvious by the workings in the TV shows and the writers comments that the military and civilian branches of government are seperate.

So logic says it is what it is and no amount of you arguing otherwise is going to change that.



			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Wherefrom this "obvious?" How is it so obvious?




You mean besides the fact that one of her first hallucinations is about a cyclon? Every one of her hallucinations have put them in direct fire of the cylons in someway. Where a military operation would have completely failed because of the President's inept decision yet plan B only succeeded because the cylons permitted it.

No religious text of any kind can be taken straight and literally. How else do cylons know how to interpret anything? They have the mind of a machine, they see stuff in binary and they output stuff in binary. Straight forward interpretations is the only way they see stuff. Plus on a story arch, it is building up for something and the logic says that whatever it is, it isn't on the obvious because the show has done nothing but be subtle. Why would things change now?




			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Are you familiar with the concept of responsibility?




It would be the responsibility of parents to listen to the military to keep their children safe.
It would be the responsibility of the civilian government to listen to the military to keep their people safe.

It is Roslins repsponsibility to answer for her treasonous acts.



			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I suggest you re-read your own material, Mr. Pot.




I am sure you want to quote me, go ahead. Unless you think my criticism of a fictional character is somehow a 'personal insult'?



			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> BZZZZZT. Incorrect. I recommend a basic course in government.




You mean the basic course of government that teaches that the President of the United States can put this country under martial law if such a thing happens?


----------



## John Crichton (Aug 4, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> You mean besides the fact that one of her first hallucinations is about a cyclon? Every one of her hallucinations have put them in direct fire of the cylons in someway. Where a military operation would have completely failed because of the President's inept decision yet plan B only succeeded because the cylons permitted it.
> 
> No religious text of any kind can be taken straight and literally. How else do cylons know how to interpret anything? They have the mind of a machine, they see stuff in binary and they output stuff in binary. Straight forward interpretations is the only way they see stuff. Plus on a story arch, it is building up for something and the logic says that whatever it is, it isn't on the obvious because the show has done nothing but be subtle. Why would things change now?



Binary in and binary out?  I think the Sharon model cylon (and to a lesser extent, Six) proves that they are much more advanced than this.  Emotion defys logic and clearly the cylons models can become attached emotionally.  And we can talk about programming if we like (to prove they are machines incapable of escaping programming) but don't forget that humans can be programmed, too.

Point being - They have become more advanced that humans are and have a plan for us.  I'm pretty sure they could have destroyed humanity if they really wanted to.  They've already done everything else they wanted to.


----------



## John Crichton (Aug 4, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> The point is that Battlestar Galactica isn't real and there is nothing such as a situation that it can be compared to. But you over zealous people seem to want it to somehow be real.



Dude, just about anything in fiction has some kind of basis in history.  You are saying that what is happening in the show has and never will happen on Earth and that may be true if you hold every detail up and reject anything that comes close.

The truth is that while humanity is at stake that doesn't disqualify it from historical comparison.  Any culture that has faced extinction would have seen things the same way - the end of Them.


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 4, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> It would be the responsibility of parents to listen to the military to keep their children safe.
> It would be the responsibility of the civilian government to listen to the military to keep their people safe.



Weird how you skipped the responsibility of the military. What do you think their responsibility is?



> I am sure you want to quote me, go ahead. Unless you think my criticism of a fictional character is somehow a 'personal insult'?



Sure, there are plenty of examples. Here's one: "ROFL. Dude Battlestar Galactica isn't real, the Quorom isn't real."



> You mean the basic course of government that teaches that the President of the United States can put this country under martial law if such a thing happens?



Hmm. Examine that statement, and then examine the statement I responded to. See if you can spot the discrepancy.

I see no point in responding to any of the other stuff you wrote, since it's just repeating what you already wrote, stuff that doesn't seem to address the issues being discussed, at least not that I can see, leaving us just responding to each other in circles.


----------



## wingsandsword (Aug 4, 2005)

ecliptic, I did not give you a "bogus link".  The official commentary said exactly what I quoted.  The creator of the show outright said that one of the basic concepts for the show was that unchecked military rule is a bad thing, that the Colonials prize civil rights and liberties even in the face of crisis and war just as much as our culture does, their government in many ways is strongly modelled on ours, and that there is a legitimate civilian government which is what the people listen to and acknowledge, although there is politicking and arguing between the military and that civilian power structure.  The actual cultural and legal framework, as well as the creator's intents are crystal clear, he even establishes it early on in the series well before the episode in question.

Also, if you think that the nuclear destruction of Washington DC would lead to nationwide martial law possibly with some General running things, you really don't know much about civics, American history, or the Constitution.



			
				ecliptic said:
			
		

> You mean the basic course of government that teaches that the President of the United States can put this country under martial law if such a thing happens?



 American law and precedent is very clear that the President cannot legally do that if such a cataclysm happens.

When Washington DC was *burned to the ground* during the War of 1812, with hostile troops marching on the city and martial law was not declared.  The only time during that war where Martial Law was declared was in the City of New Orleans, to a 4 mile radius from the city limits, as it was a central base of American forces during the war.  Major General Andrew Jackson was actually fined $1000 (a considerable sum at the time) by a Federal judge outside the area of Martial Law for refusing to turn over a military prisoner to a civilian court.  Gen. Jackson ordered the Judge arrested for interfering with the war effort, which the military arrested the judge.  After a political struggle that is a major historic parallel to the BSG situation, Gen. Jackson relented, begrudgingly acknowledged the supremacy of civilian law, paid the fine, and released the Judge and handed the prisoner over.

When Lincoln declared nationwide Martial Law during the Civil War, it was ruled by the courts to be unconstitutional, and that precedent has stood to this day.  The relevant Supreme Court precedent is _Ex Parte Milligan (1866) http://www.law.uchicago.edu/tribunals/milligan.html_, which ruled that while the Congress can suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus in the event of invasion or insurrection, but only in the area where the actual invasion or insurrection is occuring, not nationwide, and not while there are still functioning civilian courts.  United States precedent and law states that martial law can only be forcibly imposed in situations where the civilian government is completely unable to function, not where the military would rather function unimpeded by civilian authority.  The martial law throughout Hawaii in WWII was also overturned by the Supreme Court, with related convictions overturned, on the same grounds.  

What could be described by some as martial law was declared locally several times in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to deal with labor disputes, as the Posse Comitatus Act (http://www.northcom.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.factsheets&factsheet=5) was invoked to allow the military to act as law enforcement to break the strike, but only under orders from the civilian government and to bring them to civilian courts for trial.  In American legal tradition "Martial Law" as generally legally implemented refers to using the military to act as law enforcement for the civilian authority in time of emergency, not letting the military run govern without civilian oversight.

A nuclear strike against Washington DC also wouldn't destroy entire civilian government.  We have what are called Continuity of Operations Plans, where we are always prepared for such an event, and have been since the dawn of the Cold War.  Under no circumstance is everybody in the line to the Presidency ever in one place, and there are very long and very elaborate plans to ensure that a legally valid Federal government remains intact.  Frankly, if as little as one state Lieutenant Governor somewhere in the country survives a disaster, he can ascend to become Governor, who can appoint two interim Senators, who can choose one of them as a President Pro Tempore of the Senate, who is then immediately sworn in as President, and another Senator is appointed to fill that gap, and then the new President can appoint a new Cabinet and Supreme Court that are confirmed by the new Senate, and there is an interim government legally reestablished until new elections can be convened at the end of the current term of office.  Under no circumstance is the idea of some General or Admiral just assuming power ever part of this plan.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Aug 4, 2005)

A very interesting primer in aspects of civil government.

However, unless certain people remember to keep their cool we may have to close this thread as it has been steering pretty closely to the twin shoals of inflammatory name-calling and politics.

I don't want to do that, and you don't want that to happen, so lets all play nice, OK?

Thanks,


----------



## John Crichton (Aug 4, 2005)

To echo what PS said....

Man, through all this bantering back and forth I'm glad I learned something that I didn't know before.  That was pretty cool, wings.  Many thanks.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 4, 2005)

Very nice, wingsandsword.  I knew some of those details, but not all of them.  Excellent summary, that.


----------



## jasper (Aug 4, 2005)

wind ... I remember with ST: Voyager they made a point of saying early on that they only had 40 Photon Torpedoes early on and no ability to replenish them, but they shot over 90 of them in the show with never explaining where more came from. *shudder* Fortunately, we've moved on beyond that...
Ok I thought I killed my inner trekie geek. But one show did mention them somehow being able to build more torps but it was throw off scene.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> If we lost our government the military would still do their job because of how chain of command is setup.




If we "lost our government" then soldiers would have no responsibility whatsoever to follow the orders of their superiors. A point _made explicitly_ in the show by Apollo. Trying to argue that the BSG system is somehow "different" in the face of explicit contradictory evidence given in the show is silly, and makes your argument fall apart like the hollow shell that it is.



> _You mean our States were planets? OMG how did I miss that?_





Now you are just being dense. You said there was no precedent for twelve colonies joining together to form a unified government. Not only is there such a precedent, there is a very strong one. This is an aruging point that you have clearly lost.



> _You mean because there isn't one now there can't ever be one? That logic seems narrow._





Generally, the lack of any similar form of government _ever happening_ in all of human history is an indication that it doesn't make sense. You started by arguing that "there are governments different from the U.S. where the head of government doesn't have control over the military". There aren't. You lost the argument, so now you dodge and weave, rephrasing your argument to "there could be", which is nonsensical, because such a government couldn't function, even in peacetime.



> _You are refering to a few of the qurom. What else would the highly religious do?_





Actually, if you note, I'm referring to _all_ of the Quorum, since they were _all_ there when Roslin made her revelation. I am also referring to the various people she has confided in who have accepted her story as true. Once again from the evidence given on the show, we have no reason to believe that she would not be believed.



> _Your kidding right? I read that and the first thing that came to my mind was that you need help. "Just because you don't believe them". ROFL. Dude Battlestar Galactica isn't real, the Quorom isn't real._





No it isn't. BUt the show has a consistent reality of its own. Just because in the real world you would find such a leader to be unbelievable doesn't mean that the denizens of the BSG universe will share your position, as you seem to think.



> _The majority? The point of a republic is to give reperesentation to the minority so the majority doesn't mob rule.  You are advocating mob rule._





You need a refresher on exactly what a republic is. First off, you "minority protection" silliness is just that, sillinees. Many do indeed allow for majorities to do whatever they want. The U.S. has a system designed to allow for protection of individual liberties, but even that can be trumped by a sufficient majority. However, in the normal course of business, the majority, even in the U.S., gets to decide what the government is going to do.



> _You mean visions that were obviously implanted by cylons?_





There is no "obviously" about it. You seem to think that it is a "done deal" that Roslin's visions are delusions, implanted hallucinations, or something similar. We, however, have no evidence that is true. This is where your argument falls apart.



> _It would be the civilians decision. Military isn't abandoning anyone, they are letting them choose to leave._





It would be the military's decision not to follow the orders of the civilian government, as they all swore to do.



> _It great though that you like to throw personal insults around. I think you need to cool down from this arguement because you are taking this way too seriously._





I think it would be great if you injected a little bit more rationality in your arguments, since you clearly know nothing about (a) government, (b) military command, or (c) humans.



> _If Washington DC got nuked we would be under martial law because the then President would have us under martial law. But that is completely different than Battlestar Galactica's government._





Perhaps (but unlikely), but it would be _the President_ rather than some two-star general making that decision. A two-star general in the U.S. who tried to ignore the President (or his lawful successor) and set himself up as the head of government in that scenario would be a criminal, and not, as you seem to think, the legitimate head of government.

We have no evidence to think that the 12 Colonies have some sort of "independent" military government that you have posited. If they did, it would be a major plot point, since no such government has ever existed in reality. Highlighting this very unusual government form would have been a high priority, given how important it has become to the storyline. But they haven't, meaning that the evidence points towards you talking out of your hind end on this.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> The government is setup like the writers set it up. It is obvious by the workings in the TV shows and the writers comments that the military and civilian branches of government are seperate.




No, it isn't. In point of fact, all of the evidence points the other way. Perhaps you could cite _specific_ examples of what you think supports your insane interpretation.



> _You mean besides the fact that one of her first hallucinations is about a cyclon? Every one of her hallucinations have put them in direct fire of the cylons in someway. Where a military operation would have completely failed because of the President's inept decision yet plan B only succeeded because the cylons permitted it._





Actually, her first vision was of the twelve snakes. And Adama's plan would have failed, while the substitute plan that resulted from Roslin's interference worked.



> _No religious text of any kind can be taken straight and literally. How else do cylons know how to interpret anything? They have the mind of a machine, they see stuff in binary and they output stuff in binary. Straight forward interpretations is the only way they see stuff._





Have you even been watching the show? Your description of how the cylons "think" is about as off-base as one could be.



> _It would be the responsibility of parents to listen to the military to keep their children safe.
> It would be the responsibility of the civilian government to listen to the military to keep their people safe._





You don't understand responsibility. It would be the responsibility of the military personnel to adhere to their oaths, oaths that, according to Apollo, bind them to follow the laws, the same laws that place the Quorum in charge.



> _It is Roslins repsponsibility to answer for her treasonous acts._





I believe that the only person who committed treason is Adama: he refused to obey the lawful order of the President, and then arrested the head of government in violation of the law. You may disagree with Roslin's orders, but refusing to obey them would be treason.



> _You mean the basic course of government that teaches that the President of the United States can put this country under martial law if such a thing happens?_





Except that he can't, legally. He might be able to practically, but that's another matter. Shall we just add this to the long list of innaccuracies and untruths that have flowed from your keyboard in this discussion?


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 4, 2005)

IMO if we were hit by nuclear attack via terrorism or other attack from within via suitcase nuke or whatever, the President would declare a state of emerency and with it martial law.   I think the majority of people would go along with it due to panic and fear.  The idea of trading liberty for security is a common thing under times of fear, I read it all the time in the papers and on the news sites even today and we haven't been nuked to our last few thousand people.  Sure it wouldn't be a general calling the shots, but the POTUS who is the head of the military.  I can't see why the President in BSG hasn't delcared a form of martial law herself other than her gods haven't told her to or something.  I would think it would be the prudent thing until you can get away from the Cylon threat at least.  This is a war for the species not a war over oil or land.  I dunno, but I think I've pretty much tapped my thoughts on this out.  

So what to expect from next week?  I'm pumped for this episode so hopefully it delivers.  I'm starting to get tired of Adama laying on the freakin' table though.  I'd like to see that subplot wrapped up a bit and get him back into action, if limited action for a while since he is recovering.  Either way Olmos is really making out like a bandit here.  His acting is easy, laying on a table has to be the best way to earn a paycheck...and it's hard to screw your lines up.

Baltarr really interests me.  Sometimes I just totally hate him, sometimes I feel for him, sometimes I'm rooting for him...it's all over the board.  I guess that's good writing.   

I wonder if the Cylon on BSG will be in this show?  I don't think they did anything at all with her last week.  I bet Helo will want to nail her when he gets back with Starbuck...if he does.  Part of me thinks he's going to buy it getting off the planet.  Either way he's still an idiot.  The Chief's reaction to "Sharon" is going to be interesting though.  Ya know I wonder if they have thought is she may be trackable by the cylon fleets?  It may be best just to space her.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Aug 4, 2005)

Technically she has though.

IF you remember, in Season 1 she begged Adama to assign military to work police shifts aboard civilian vessels and to help settle disputes, or defend those who are trying to settle them civily.

Under OUR modern legal defention, that IS martial law. The civil governing body, asks (or orders) the military body to provide armed support and defense of its laws.

They already were under Martial Law by that standard. 

I personally think the writers may have screwed up a bit on this one, or are relying on the uneducation of most viewers to get this bit by people who'll never know the diffrence.

When Tigh declared Martial Law, it wasnt even that! The Military was already providing the police. Now, he basically just said that The Miltiary wouldnt listen to any civilian law.

Thats treason. Whatever his justifications.
I dont for a minute belive Adama would have done it. 


As far as we know the President of the Kobolian Government, does not directly command the military. We've been given no indication that they do on screen. 
When Roslyn told Starbuck what to do, she interfered in a military matter, and thus Adama could have legaly arrested her. 

Perhaps Adama was counting on Baltar to calm things down. Who knows.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> IMO if we were hit by nuclear attack via terrorism or other attack from within via suitcase nuke or whatever, the President would declare a state of emerency and with it martial law.




State of emergency, probably. Martial law, unlikely.



> _I can't see why the President in BSG hasn't delcared a form of martial law herself other than her gods haven't told her to or something.  I would think it would be the prudent thing until you can get away from the Cylon threat at least.  This is a war for the species not a war over oil or land.  I dunno, but I think I've pretty much tapped my thoughts on this out._





Perhaps she is trying to preserve a sense of normality to reassure the citizenry that things will get better at some point. Martial law is a drastic step that would likely unsettle people more than they already are, and may be counterproductive.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> When Tigh declared Martial Law, it wasnt even that! The Military was already providing the police. Now, he basically just said that The Miltiary wouldnt listen to any civilian law.




True. That's not martial law. That's a military coup, and a recipe for civil war.



> _Thats treason. Whatever his justifications._





Yep, just like arresting the President.



> _As far as we know the President of the Kobolian Government, does not directly command the military._





Then who does? As a practical matter, how would a government in which the head of state did not control the military function?



> _We've been given no indication that they do on screen._





Well, other than Apollo's comments.



> _When Roslyn told Starbuck what to do, she interfered in a military matter, and thus Adama could have legaly arrested her._





Not in any known legal system. That's the sticking point. The government you describe (the head of state does not command the military) is unprecedented. Yet no mention has been made of this fact. Somehow, given the lack of groundwork laid for this in the series, I don't think that this heretofore unknown form of government that has been positied is the on the Twelve Colonies use.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Aug 4, 2005)

From what I see, when Adama was concious, as he Understands it, HE leads humanity. Right now, in space they are in the middle of a war. HE has the experience, he has the knowledge and he has the authority (from his perspective) to lead humanity to saftey. He allows Roslyn and the Quorum to exist as they are, as concessions to make the colonial people still alive more comfortable. To keep hope alive.

Remember in the pilot mini series, keeping hope alive was one of the most important things to him. 

I'm sure that Adama fully intends to reach a safe planet away from the cylons, then fall into the backround letting Roslyn and company run humanity, and being there to do what he needs to do.

But, right now the entire thing is a military operation. They're running for their lives. The planets they call home are obliterated. There IS no government. There is a bunch of surviving ships protected by the miltiary.

I agree with him. Roslyn was wrong for sending starbuck out like that. Despite what she belives. She should have stepped back and let Adama do his job of getting them to saftey. 

If earth was destroyed and I ended up on some starship. I certainly wouldnt want Bush calling the shots out there when some manaics were trying to kill us. I'd want the miltary in complete control till I was safe and sound. 

But as we've all said before. Its a fantasy, its not real. 

Lets just see how the story plays out


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> But, right now the entire thing is a military operation. They're running for their lives. The planets they call home are obliterated. There IS no government. There is a bunch of surviving ships protected by the miltiary.




In which case, we go back to Apollo's quote: Roslin's not President, Adama's not an admiral, Apollo isn't a captain, and no one needs to bother following orders. It is hard to justify a military structure based upon loyalty to a government and set of laws if you set those things aside.



> _I agree with him. Roslyn was wrong for sending starbuck out like that. Despite what she belives. She should have stepped back and let Adama do his job of getting them to saftey._





Even when she thought Adama was wrong (as he has been before)? Wouldn't that be abdicating her responsibility as President?


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 4, 2005)

I would expect the President to retain command of the military, but only if he was competent to do it.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Aug 4, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> He specifically talks about the civilian and military authorities as if they were 2 seperate entities. Then he goes on talking about how they value their system of government like we do. You pretty much gave me a bogus link.




No. He "pretty much" directly and utterly destroyed your misguided arguments in a convincing and authoritative manner.

And you've "pretty much" shown everyone else here you don't know when to give it up.  :\


----------



## fett527 (Aug 4, 2005)

OK, so I missed last week and it is now apparent I won't be able to see it before tomorrow night.  I am picking up a DVR box from Time Warner tomorrow, it WON'T happen again.  

I read through all the posts this morning (a task that) and I saw some snippets of what actually happened during the episode and I read the SciFi channel synposis, but if someone could give me a run down on the important details I would appreciate it.


----------



## Vigilance (Aug 4, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> From what I see, when Adama was concious, as he Understands it, HE leads humanity. Right now, in space they are in the middle of a war. HE has the experience, he has the knowledge and he has the authority (from his perspective) to lead humanity to saftey. He allows Roslyn and the Quorum to exist as they are, as concessions to make the colonial people still alive more comfortable. To keep hope alive.
> 
> Remember in the pilot mini series, keeping hope alive was one of the most important things to him.
> 
> ...




Here's my comment on this whole discussion.

Apollo gave you the answer as to why Adama didn't just want to take over and ignore Roslyn's Presidency "if we're not obeying the law then she's not the President and you're not the commander".

In other words, if we've abandoned the rule of law, the next time one of you tells me what to do, Im getting a gun, fragging you and taking over. 

And as I recall that episode, they both seemed to realize the implication he was making. 

And remember, she wasn't some dogcatcher who decided she should have some power. She was in the chain of command. 

Also, your statement that Adama wanted to find a safe planet from the get-go is incorrect. Adama wanted to arm the Galactica and go down in a blaze of glory. *Roslyn* convinced him the war was over and that it was time for Galactica to save what was left of humanity.

Finally, if these last 50,000 are really going to save humanity only to "save" it in the form of a military dictatorship that ignores their laws *and* their religious beliefs, why are they bothering? 

That's why I think Roslyn is walking on the path of the angels here and Adama is dead wrong.

Chuck


----------



## Rykion (Aug 4, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> In which case, we go back to Apollo's quote: Roslin's not President, Adama's not an admiral, Apollo isn't a captain, and no one needs to bother following orders. It is hard to justify a military structure based upon loyalty to a government and set of laws if you set those things aside.




I don't believe most of the military has kept its structure because of loyalty to the government or its laws.  The majority of the military's loyalty is to Commander Adama, and he has kept them in proper military bearing.  They arrested the President at his command.  A military loyal to the government would be unlikely to follow such an order.  Apollo is an exception as he was not part of the Galactica's crew and has a poor relationship with his father.  Tigh is really screwing things up, and would probably find himself sucking vacuum if Adama died.  Adama really doesn't seem to want authority over the civillians.  He was angry that the President broke the proper chain of command.


----------



## dravot (Aug 4, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> OK, so I missed last week and it is now apparent I won't be able to see it before tomorrow night.  I am picking up a DVR box from Time Warner tomorrow, it WON'T happen again.
> 
> I read through all the posts this morning (a task that) and I saw some snippets of what actually happened during the episode and I read the SciFi channel synposis, but if someone could give me a run down on the important details I would appreciate it.



The Quorum (including Crazy Richard Hatch) show up and demand to see the President.  Tigh stows them away while he thinks of what to do.

The President is suffering from withdrawal of Khamalla extract, and is visited by Ellen Tigh while in this state.  Ellen sees how she is and reports this back to her husband.

Billie finds out that our favorite guard is from Geminon, which apparently follows the scriptures more closely than anyone else.  He asks said guard if he knows where they can get more Extract, which they do.

Tigh brings the Quorum to the brig ("Viewing time at the zoo").  The President is initially unresponsive, but then claims to be the Prophet.  She's asked about dying, and she admits to having cancer.  Crazy Richard Hatch intervenes and asks the Geminon representative for an opinion.  Tigh is clearly losing control of the situation and gets everyone out.

He ends the show by declaring Martial Law.

Oh, and stuff happens on Kobol, too.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I would expect the President to retain command of the military, but only if he was competent to do it.




A determination that would not be up to a two-star general to make.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 4, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> I don't believe most of the military has kept its structure because of loyalty to the government or its laws.  The majority of the military's loyalty is to Commander Adama, and he has kept them in proper military bearing.  They arrested the President at his command.  A military loyal to the government would be unlikely to follow such an order.  Apollo is an exception as he was not part of the Galactica's crew and has a poor relationship with his father.  Tigh is really screwing things up, and would probably find himself sucking vacuum if Adama died.  Adama really doesn't seem to want authority over the civillians.  He was angry that the President broke the proper chain of command.




Exactly.  They crew of the Galactica didn't question Adama at all when he bascially terminated the Presidency of Roslin.  And notice that when the President's secretary guy talked to the communications officer, Dee I think, in last episode she said the President was trying to inspire mutiny on her ship.  How can it be mutiny if the President is the commander?  She isn't, they are loyal to Adama and the chain of command, not the President.  Probably becuase they are soliders and they are used to doing so and following orders, and they respect and have faith in Adama.  Now that Tigh is in charge things may start to change but I haven't seen anything to suggest that anyone on Galactica other than Apollo had a problem with Adama's actions.  Now they haven't done a poll or anything but I'm guessing characters like Dee are representative of the little guys in the crew.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> I don't believe most of the military has kept its structure because of loyalty to the government or its laws.  The majority of the military's loyalty is to Commander Adama, and he has kept them in proper military bearing.




I doubt it. Most military personnel (in the modern world) don't follow a single charismatic leader because that's the thing to do. They are citizens sworn to uphold the ideals and functions of their government. Most military people follow that: their oath, not their commander.



> _They arrested the President at his command.  A military loyal to the government would be unlikely to follow such an order._





A handful of soldiers followed his order. Then he was shot. We've only had a couple hours take place singe his decision, all of which have been filled with hectic combat against cylons. We have no idea what will happen once things calm down for a day or two and the troops start to think about what Adama's (and Tigh's) decisions really mean.



> _Apollo is an exception as he was not part of the Galactica's crew and has a poor relationship with his father.  Tigh is really screwing things up, and would probably find himself sucking vacuum if Adama died.  Adama really doesn't seem to want authority over the civillians.  He was angry that the President broke the proper chain of command._





Except, if the 12 Colonies government is like every other known government that has ever existed, it was Adama who broke the proper chain of command by refusing to follow an order given to him by a superior. Roslin was likely perfectly within her rights to give Starbuck a direct order and bypass Adama. He just had a hissy fit.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Exactly.  They crew of the Galactica didn't question Adama at all when he bascially terminated the Presidency of Roslin.




Of course, they've only had a couple hours to absorb what has happened. I think things will go downhill for Adama/Tigh rapidly on this score. Keeping military discipline in the face of their utter disregard for the laws of the Colonies will be difficult.



> _And notice that when the President's secretary guy talked to the communications officer, Dee I think, in last episode she said the President was trying to inspire mutiny on her ship.  How can it be mutiny if the President is the commander?_





I think Dee is confused, or more properly, the writers are, they have already confused "martial law" with "military coup". I'm not sure they actually understand what "mutiny" means.



> _She isn't, they are loyal to Adama and the chain of command, not the President.  Probably becuase they are soliders and they are used to doing so and following orders, and they respect and have faith in Adama.  Now that Tigh is in charge things may start to change but I haven't seen anything to suggest that anyone on Galactica other than Apollo had a problem with Adama's actions.  Now they haven't done a poll or anything but I'm guessing characters like Dee are representative of the little guys in the crew._





I think we don't really have a good idea of what the little guy has to say yet. Dee, being a bridge crew member with direct personal contact with Adama, is likely to be unrepresentative of the "little guy".


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 4, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I doubt it. Most military personnel (in the modern world) don't follow a single charismatic leader because that's the thing to do. They are citizens sworn to uphold the ideals and functions of their government. Most military people follow that: their oath, not their commander.




Beyond Apollo is there a single instance of anyone on the crew giving an indication of this?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 4, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Beyond Apollo is there a single instance of anyone on the crew giving an indication of this?



 Not that I can think of.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 4, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> They arrested the President at his command. A military loyal to the government would be unlikely to follow such an order. Apollo is an exception as he was not part of the Galactica's crew and has a poor relationship with his father. Tigh is really screwing things up, and would probably find himself sucking vacuum if Adama died. Adama really doesn't seem to want authority over the civillians. He was angry that the President broke the proper chain of command.




The situation is, of course, pretty complex.  The military is clearly loyal to the Old Man.  However, ONLY to the Old Man.  Tigh doesn't have their respect (remember Dualla's 'tippling' motion?) and his 'personal' problems have now become 'professional' problems (remember _that_ exchange?) which are, in turn, MANKIND's problems.  Both you and Vigilance hit the nail on the head of the possible ramification of military rule with governmental support: dictators are often overthrown.  Even a cursory inspection of South America's 'Strong Men' shows that, for example.  It's no accident that such dictators (be it Saddam, Papa Doc, Trujillo, Amin or dozens of others) surround themselves with family members...they can't trust many others. 

Further, it's already clear that many would directly oppose such a situation.  There were plenty of security guards ready to die to protect the president when Tigh came.  Venner's loyalty is clearly no longer primarily to the military.  Zarek's followers certainly would fight.

The 800-lb. gorilla in the room, of course, is religion.  Adama wasn't angry just because the president had interferred in a mission: he was angry that she had done so on what he considers a fool's errand.  It's one thing to intone "So Say We All."...quite another to accept that the prophecised scripture of your religion is suddenly being claimed as legitimate and actionable by the Prez.  Adama is a pragmatist and a man of principles and reason.  He respects...but I'm sure we'll find that he doesn't truly hold much truck with the Lords of Cobol.  He may pay lip service to it, but in his heart, he doesn't accept that it could really be happening.

And that's part of the issue of the debate: accepting that Roslyn really is receiving messages from the Lords of Cobol and the acceptance that such beings both exist and are manipulating events is a big reach.  Science Fiction generally rejects these beliefs as being anything more than relgious dogma and faith, not as literal fact.  People believe in God...but REAL ANGELS don't show up, just aliens of some kind or some sort of mistake, trick or manipulation.  That defies the genre conventions and expectations...which may be part of the reason they're doing it in the first place.

We're now about to come to loggerheads over the issue.  Adama clearly thought the president had lost it; Tigh assumed it after Ellen clued him in.  Others are quite ready to accept it.  Consider: now she's not just the president held in the brig...she's the SAVIOR OF MANKIND.


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## Safana Cain (Aug 4, 2005)

I'm surprised by how many people are so supportive of Pres. Roslyn.  For that matter, I'm surprised by how the entire Quorum fell to their knees to worship her when she told them about her visions.  I mean, she's governing by _visions, _you know?  

Not that overthrowing her like some banana republic general was the right thing to do.  Maybe if you find out the President did something crazy you quietly let the Quorum know and not try to kill her.  I think Adama is actually upset about the Pres. turning Starbuck "against" him.  But I don't think Adama is a fascist - Tigh maybe, though.  Adama and Roslyn are both good folk doing crazy, crazy things that endanger the remains of human civilization.

Also, I just want to put another good word in for Zarek here.  We only think that he's egomaniacal and power-hungry because Apollo said he was, not because he actually is.  (Assassinating the president doesn't count!)


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Not that I can think of.




Not yet. I'm thinking the Chief will have some problems with it once he gets back. And the religious guard seemed to be willing to do what he could. Her security guards sure seemed willing to stand by her too. We have yet to see what the military in general will do: remember, it's only been a few hours since Adama arrested the President.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 4, 2005)

If just hope they never state for sure one way or another, at least not until the end of the series, if she is a nut or a prophet.  Keep it ambiguous.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

Safana Cain said:
			
		

> I'm surprised by how many people are so supportive of Pres. Roslyn.  For that matter, I'm surprised by how the entire Quorum fell to their knees to worship her when she told them about her visions.  I mean, she's governing by _visions, _you know?




It's funny how people who have deep religious faith don't respond the way many cynical Westerners think they should, isn't it? 



> _Not that overthrowing her like some banana republic general was the right thing to do.  Maybe if you find out the President did something crazy you quietly let the Quorum know and not try to kill her.  I think Adama is actually upset about the Pres. turning Starbuck "against" him.  But I don't think Adama is a fascist - Tigh maybe, though.  Adama and Roslyn are both good folk doing crazy, crazy things that endanger the remains of human civilization._





I'm sure there are lawful means of removing a President in the 12 Colonies. I suspect that Adama didn't want to use these because he thought that when Roslin's visions were revealed (as they would have to be in such a situation), many people would react exactly as the members of the Quorum did, and the popular vote would go against him. So instead, he took the "arrest her" route, to avoid having to subject his decisions to popular opinion. That pretty much goes a long way to making him out to be a fascist.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 4, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> It's funny how people who have deep religious faith don't respond the way many cynical Westerners think they should, isn't it?




I'm more suprised that the entire group is full of devout religious people that would just accept that off the bat.  But we will see how it goes tomorrow night, should be interesting.


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## Rykion (Aug 4, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Except, if the 12 Colonies government is like every other known government that has ever existed, it was Adama who broke the proper chain of command by refusing to follow an order given to him by a superior. Roslin was likely perfectly within her rights to give Starbuck a direct order and bypass Adama. He just had a hissy fit.




No, the President was not within her rights to give a direct order to Starbuck.  If Adama refused an order, she would be within her rights to replace him, assuming she is Commander in chief.  She then should give the order to the next military commander.  Issuing an order to someone that is not a direct subordinate is clearly breaking the chain of command.  She has undermined Adama's authority as Commander, Tigh's authority as XO, and Apollo's authority as CAG.  

Military's are not usually run by a single charismatic commander, but ships and bases often are.  The entire military is now basically the crew of one ship, and the miniseries established that Adama is very popular and very hands on.  He is no longer just a ship commander, he is now the highest ranking military officer.  Just like the Secretary of education became the President of the Colonies.

I do think that both Tigh and Adama have been shown to be incompetent for the authority given to them.  Tigh is an unpopular alcoholic that has relied on the "old man" to lead.  Adama is a competent ship commander, but often needs someone to remind him of what his proper duties are.  Apollo is actually the only officer shown trying to uphold the proper duty of the military.


----------



## TanisFrey (Aug 4, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Also, if you think that the nuclear destruction of Washington DC would lead to nationwide martial law possibly with some General running things, you really don't know much about civics, American history, or the Constitution.
> 
> American law and precedent is very clear that the President cannot legally do that if such a cataclysm happens.
> 
> A nuclear strike against Washington DC also wouldn't destroy entire civilian government.  We have what are called Continuity of Operations Plans, where we are always prepared for such an event, and have been since the dawn of the Cold War.  Under no circumstance is everybody in the line to the Presidency ever in one place, and there are very long and very elaborate plans to ensure that a legally valid Federal government remains intact.  Frankly, if as little as one state Lieutenant Governor somewhere in the country survives a disaster, he can ascend to become Governor, who can appoint two interim Senators, who can choose one of them as a President Pro Tempore of the Senate, who is then immediately sworn in as President, and another Senator is appointed to fill that gap, and then the new President can appoint a new Cabinet and Supreme Court that are confirmed by the new Senate, and there is an interim government legally reestablished until new elections can be convened at the end of the current term of office.  Under no circumstance is the idea of some General or Admiral just assuming power ever part of this plan.



There Is a LAW allowing the most Senior surviving General/Admaridal to take total control of the USA with the spifica instructions to reconstutie the Civilan goverment in the event of ALL OUT NUCKING OF THE USA.  It was wirten in the 1950's and extendended after 9/11 to include Chenical and Bio attacks in all areas nessary.


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## TanisFrey (Aug 4, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> IF you remember, in Season 1 she begged Adama to assign military to work police shifts aboard civilian vessels and to help settle disputes, or defend those who are trying to settle them civily.



Adama said that this was a bad idea and was trying to talk Roslin out of it and set up a civilan police force.  They ended with Roslin agreaing that the use of the military should be the last thing to be used.


----------



## Rykion (Aug 4, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> And that's part of the issue of the debate: accepting that Roslyn really is receiving messages from the Lords of Cobol and the acceptance that such beings both exist and are manipulating events is a big reach. Science Fiction generally rejects these beliefs as being anything more than relgious dogma and faith, not as literal fact. People believe in God...but REAL ANGELS don't show up, just aliens of some kind or some sort of mistake, trick or manipulation. That defies the genre conventions and expectations...which may be part of the reason they're doing it in the first place.




That is one of the reasons I liked the original Battlestar Galactica.  Religion played a key role, and it wasn't assumed that it was all just a ruse by a more advanced race.  The new Adama and President Roslyn are the original series Adama's soul split in two.  If they would just get on the same page, they might be able to save humanity.  It makes the new series frustrating and dramatic at the same time.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> No, the President was not within her rights to give a direct order to Starbuck.  If Adama refused an order, she would be within her rights to replace him, assuming she is Commander in chief.  She then should give the order to the next military commander.  Issuing an order to someone that is not a direct subordinate is clearly breaking the chain of command.  She has undermined Adama's authority as Commander, Tigh's authority as XO, and Apollo's authority as CAG.




Which she can do. A superior officer can go around chain of command if they desire. It is one of the perks of the job. A general can give an order directly to a private if he wants to, and the order is just as valid as one pased down through channels.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> There Is a LAW allowing the most Senior surviving General/Admaridal to take total control of the USA with the spifica instructions to reconstutie the Civilan goverment in the event of ALL OUT NUCKING OF THE USA.  It was wirten in the 1950's and extendended after 9/11 to include Chenical and Bio attacks in all areas nessary.




That is the line of succession law. The equivalent has already been invoked in the BSG universe - that's how Roslin became President. Arguing that now, when Adama doesn't like the results, he should be able to remove her and replace with himself is arguing in favor of a military coup, not in favor of following the law of sucession.


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## WizarDru (Aug 4, 2005)

Safana Cain said:
			
		

> I'm surprised by how many people are so supportive of Pres. Roslyn. For that matter, I'm surprised by how the entire Quorum fell to their knees to worship her when she told them about her visions. I mean, she's governing by _visions, _you know?




I'd have to watch it again, but I don't think they ALL went down on bended knee.  The rep from Geminom certainly did, and a few others...but I think half of them remained standing, such as Zarek.



			
				Safana Cain said:
			
		

> I think Adama is actually upset about the Pres. turning Starbuck "against" him. But I don't think Adama is a fascist - Tigh maybe, though. Adama and Roslyn are both good folk doing crazy, crazy things that endanger the remains of human civilization.




I think that the insight about Starbuck is a profound one; there's only one person Bill Adama cares about more.  I think it's highly unfair to call them incompetent, though.  They're doing the best they can in really, REALLY difficult circumstances.  It's been a few months at most since the near genocide of the human race?  I think they're doing the best they can; they're human and it's really hard to do.

A few random thoughts: there seems to be a widespread assumption that the cylons are letting them escape; I don't think that's entirely true.  There've been a lot of close calls that were a little TOO close.  I do believe that they want some of mankind to survive...but I think the original plan didn't include the galactica.  The cylons are smart and dangerous...but they've been shaving it AWFULLY close.  Let's take Baltar, for example; if he's so darned important, why crash the Raptor so badly?  It's pure luck that he's survived any number of horrible mishaps.  I find it very hard to believe that they planned for him to be rescued by Helo's sacrifice and were certain he would be in no danger from all of the happenstances since then.  That crash alone had a high chance of being fatal for Baltar...how would the cylons be able to be sure that he survived relativley intact?  My sneaking suspicion is that there are factions within the cylons, and their playing out a bizarre game.



			
				Safana Cain said:
			
		

> Also, I just want to put another good word in for Zarek here. We only think that he's egomaniacal and power-hungry because Apollo said he was, not because he actually is. (Assassinating the president doesn't count!)




Yeah, well...power-hungry, maybe/maybe not.  Insane and egomaniacal: full-on.  How about: "[font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]_Once Roslyn uses Adama's soldiers to massacre the people on this ship, prisoners and hostages alike, the people in the fleet will never, never forgive them. The entire government will collapse._"  Remember, this little speech was given less than two weeks after mankind was nearly wiped from existence.

Let's remember, Zarek bombed a government building back on Sagittaron.  An act of terroristic violence he doesn't repent, 20 years later.  A man who was offered freedom but refused it, because he wouldn't advocate peaceful change.  Zarek is a great character, but he's a total bastard.
[/font]


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## wingsandsword (Aug 4, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> There Is a LAW allowing the most Senior surviving General/Admaridal to take total control of the USA with the spifica instructions to reconstutie the Civilan goverment in the event of ALL OUT NUCKING OF THE USA.  It was wirten in the 1950's and extendended after 9/11 to include Chenical and Bio attacks in all areas nessary.



No, there isn't, there are conspiracy theories and urban legends about shadowy plans to have some military officer take control in an emergency, but it doesn't exist, and if it did it was superceeded by other laws and directives that maintain the integrity of Civil authority.  You can't have a law to do an illegal thing.  If there is such a law, cite it, give references.  Everything I'm asserting I'm providing outside evidence and links for.

There is Looking Glass, the plan of continuously having a General in a fully outfitted command aircraft in the air at all times with military contingency plans that began in 1961, but that was only to ensure the military chain of command should lines of communication be severed or there be any delay in finding the lawful successor to the POTUS.  Looking Glass remains active, but since 1990 and the end of the Cold War, it isn't in the air, but on 24 hour alert to launch and have a backup military command active and execute the policies and directives handed down as final orders from the POTUS.  It was not a martial law plan to give a high ranking General control of the civil government.  The Presidential Succession Act of 1947 is the relevant law here (http://bensguide.gpo.gov/9-12/government/national/succession.html  There are many sites for this, I searched to find one that was .gov so it was from an official government source)

http://www.fema.gov/onsc/docs/fpc_65.pdf Federal Preparedness Circular 65 is the actual government memorandum on the subject, distributed throughout the government as the manual on preparing for such a cataclysm, and ensuring that everybody knows who has lawful authority in such a case.  In no case in FPC 65 is the military directed to seize control.  In fact, it even makes the point of specifically waiting until a legal successor can be found, preferably within 12 hours.

In the BSG universe, their version of this was activated in the miniseries, when Roslin was the only person remaining in the line of succession who was able to respond to their emergency beacon, and it was validated through their COOP system, who later reconstructed a legitimate civilian government, including their legislature and an election of a Vice President.  The Quorum even appeared to be backing Roslin's actions as legitimate, hence Tigh moving them out of the Brig and promptly declaring (unlawful) martial law.


----------



## MaxKaladin (Aug 4, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> The 800-lb. gorilla in the room, of course, is religion.  Adama wasn't angry just because the president had interferred in a mission: he was angry that she had done so on what he considers a fool's errand.  It's one thing to intone "So Say We All."...quite another to accept that the prophecised scripture of your religion is suddenly being claimed as legitimate and actionable by the Prez.  Adama is a pragmatist and a man of principles and reason.  He respects...but I'm sure we'll find that he doesn't truly hold much truck with the Lords of Cobol.  He may pay lip service to it, but in his heart, he doesn't accept that it could really be happening.



This is what I think and it is why I support his actions.  I have similar thoughts about this being a fools mission.  This whole "retrieve the Arrow of Athena so we can use it on Kobol to find the path to Earth" thing sounds like a bad fantasy book, not a rational course of action.  I want to stress that I am normally absolutely against military overthrow of civilian authority, but when the stakes are this high, most of the civilian government is destroyed and the president starts making decisions based on a belief that she's a religious prophet, I'm willing to make an exception.  



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> And that's part of the issue of the debate: accepting that Roslyn really is receiving messages from the Lords of Cobol and the acceptance that such beings both exist and are manipulating events is a big reach.  Science Fiction generally rejects these beliefs as being anything more than relgious dogma and faith, not as literal fact.  People believe in God...but REAL ANGELS don't show up, just aliens of some kind or some sort of mistake, trick or manipulation.  That defies the genre conventions and expectations...which may be part of the reason they're doing it in the first place.



This is, I think, the fundamental argument here.  People are not used to Science Fiction having religion as literal fact and the baseline assumption is to assume it is nothing but dogma and faith until it is specifically and clearly shown to be otherwise (and it has been kept vague in Galactica so far).  If you are willing to accept that Roslin is a genuine prophet -- or, at least, that it is reasonable to believe she is -- then Adama's actions look mutinous and traitorous acts that should not be tolerated.  If you are not willing to accept that Roslin is a genuine prophet or that it is reasonable to believe she is, then Adama's actions look like a necessary, if regretable, evil that had to happen to save the remainder of humanity from destruction.  I think that's really the seed of the argument here.


----------



## Rykion (Aug 4, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Which she can do. A superior officer can go around chain of command if they desire. It is one of the perks of the job. A general can give an order directly to a private if he wants to, and the order is just as valid as one pased down through channels.




It is at the least, a major breach of chain of command etiquette.  A general going to the frontlines just to give commands to privates can at least expect to be chewed out by his superior.  It shows that the officer has no confidence in the people whose authority has been ignored.  The President has no legal superior, but she found out what happens when you snub the person that holds the loyalty of the military.  Tigh's incompetence, Adama's being out of it, and the crew's unwillingness to injure civillians will probably lead to the President regaining power.


----------



## wingsandsword (Aug 4, 2005)

It looks like the next episode, tomorrow night, will start to answer some of these questions, judging from the Preview (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/)

Episode Name: Resistance
Preview Summary (from scifi.com):  After Col. Tigh imposes martial law, Lee conspires to free Pres. Roslin and organizes a democratic resistance.

Here's a transcript:

Establishing shot of Galactica:

Officer Speaking to Tigh: Three more ships are refusing to resupply Galactica until the President is reenstated.

Title Card: Silencing Freedom

Tigh: That's it, I'm sending in the marines, tell them to get over there and bring back the supplies!

Reaction takes from the CIC crew

Shots of marines moving cargo containers while in full combat gear

Title Card: Leads to Rebellion

Roslin, behind bars: Something ugly is coming, I can feel it.

Shots of marines in a brawl with civilians.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> It is at the least, a major breach of chain of command etiquette.




Sure, but it is a breach of _the law_ to refuse to follow the orders of your superior, as Adama did.



> _A general going to the frontlines just to give commands to privates can at least expect to be chewed out by his superior.  It shows that the officer has no confidence in the people whose authority has been ignored._





That would be the exact situation Roslin was in. She had no confidence in Adama, or his drunken crony Tigh. So she went around them.



> _The President has no legal superior, but she found out what happens when you snub the person that holds the loyalty of the military.  Tigh's incompetence, Adama's being out of it, and the crew's unwillingness to injure civillians will probably lead to the President regaining power._





Probably.


----------



## dravot (Aug 4, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I'm more suprised that the entire group is full of devout religious people that would just accept that off the bat.  But we will see how it goes tomorrow night, should be interesting.



Why does that surprise you?  Some people automatically accepted the appearance of the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich.

Now, if it was Reuben or a patty melt, then I'd understand.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> This is what I think and it is why I support his actions.  I have similar thoughts about this being a fools mission.  This whole "retrieve the Arrow of Athena so we can use it on Kobol to find the path to Earth" thing sounds like a bad fantasy book, not a rational course of action.




As do many missions planned by religious organizations. That doesn't mean they can be ignored though. Adama's original plan in the pilot (go down fighting in a blaze of glory) was just as irrational, if not more so. At least Roslin's plan is something she _believes_ will lead humanity to some sort of refuge. What plan does Adama have other than "wander about until I figure something out to get out of the lie I told everyone at the beginning of this journey"?

In addition, his justification for refusing Roslin's directions ("we need the raider as a military asset") seems pretty hollow now, since they obviously _didn't_ need the raider for much of anything. Sending a single ship to Capirca to retrive something seems like a pretty small investment of resources, even if it proves to be a wild goose chase.



> _I want to stress that I am normally absolutely against military overthrow of civilian authority, but when the stakes are this high, most of the civilian government is destroyed and the president starts making decisions based on a belief that she's a religious prophet, I'm willing to make an exception._





The correct course would have been to bring this to the attention of the Quroum, and aksed for her to be _lawfully_ removed. But Adama didn't want to do that. I suspect, based upon the reactions we have seen, that this is because he would have lost that debate. If the government is run by a religious prophet, and might have the support of the populace, is it Adama's place to supplant their judgment with his own?



> _If you are willing to accept that Roslin is a genuine prophet -- or, at least, that it is reasonable to believe she is -- then Adama's actions look mutinous and traitorous acts that should not be tolerated.  If you are not willing to accept that Roslin is a genuine prophet or that it is reasonable to believe she is, then Adama's actions look like a necessary, if regretable, evil that had to happen to save the remainder of humanity from destruction.  I think that's really the seed of the argument here._





Actually, even if you assume Roslin is having delusions, hallucinations, or even cylon implanted flashes, Adama's actions look mutinous and traitorous. The military does not perform a coup, no matter how bad the President is. There are ways to remove people from office legally. Using other methods to do this is criminal treason, no matter the justification.


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## Rykion (Aug 4, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Sure, but it is a breach of _the law_ to refuse to follow the orders of your superior, as Adama did.
> 
> That would be the exact situation Roslin was in. She had no confidence in Adama, or his drunken crony Tigh. So she went around them.




The legal remedy is to relieve the commander that refused to follow orders.  It would not have gone well though, just like going around Adama didn't go well.  Personally, if I were her, I would have just promoted Apollo to Admiral and let him order his dad around.  It probably wouldn't have worked, but boy would it be funny.

Tigh is definitely incompetent.  Being drunk on duty is a court-martialable offense.  His not understanding what was going on with the rescue mission in the last episode shows that he was out of it.

Adama is a competent ship captain, but needed the President to remind him that his duty was to the people.  He would have left the civillians without protection and gotten his crew killed fighting the Cylons.  Then he refused to follow orders and arrested the President.  He really doesn't seem to have what it takes to be a general level officer.  It is probably why he and Tigh were left in charge of a relic of a ship that hadn't made an FTL jump in years.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> The legal remedy is to relieve the commander that refused to follow orders.




Or go around them and issue orders to lower ranking individuals. Doing so would be bad form, but perfectly legal.



> _It would not have gone well though, just like going around Adama didn't go well.  Personally, if I were her, I would have just promoted Apollo to Admiral and let him order his dad around.  It probably wouldn't have worked, but boy would it be funny._





It didn't go well because Adama still hasn't figured out that Roslin is legally, President. He has been having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that the Education Secretary moved to the big chair, and it shows.



> _Tigh is definitely incompetent.  Being drunk on duty is a court-martialable offense.  His not understanding what was going on with the rescue mission in the last episode shows that he was out of it._





I think it has been made pretty clear that without Adama running interference for him, Tigh would have been drummed out of the service long ago. That's why I call him "Adama's drunken crony".



> _Adama is a competent ship captain, but needed the President to remind him that his duty was to the people.  He would have left the civillians without protection and gotten his crew killed fighting the Cylons.  Then he refused to follow orders and arrested the President.  He really doesn't seem to have what it takes to be a general level officer.  It is probably why he and Tigh were left in charge of a relic of a ship that hadn't made an FTL jump in years._





Yeah, and his military judgment seems to be suspect as well. He threw a hissy fit over the use of the raider for Roslin's mission, claiming it was necessary for his precious plan. But it clearly wasn't. Plus he seems to be woefully ignorant of the role he is supposed to play as an officer: serving the civilians around him rather than ordering them about.


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## BrooklynKnight (Aug 4, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> Adama said that this was a bad idea and was trying to talk Roslin out of it and set up a civilan police force. They ended with Roslin agreaing that the use of the military should be the last thing to be used.




I'm pretty sure that in the end Adama agreed to send a few.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 4, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> [/i]
> 
> Yeah, and his military judgment seems to be suspect as well. He threw a hissy fit over the use of the raider for Roslin's mission, claiming it was necessary for his precious plan. But it clearly wasn't.




How much of the success of that mission was due to the Cylon piloting the ship that ended up doing the mission?  If a human had been piloting a Raptor and did that would they have been shot down?  Since the Cylons are apparently constantly networked with each other, on death they are downloaded into a new body, I'm sure the Base Star was well aware of her approach.  And for some reason they sacrificed that ship by allowing her to put the nuke onboard.  And regardless is it was a much more sound military strategy than sending in your own ship and hoping it's not identified on approach while sending the perfect vessel for the mission off to find the "magic arrow".  Hopefully they address that issue later.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> How much of the success of that mission was due to the Cylon piloting the ship that ended up doing the mission? If a human had been piloting a Raptor and did that would they have been shot down?




We don't know, since that didn't happen



> _Since the Cylons are apparently constantly networked with each other, on death they are downloaded into a new body, I'm sure the Base Star was well aware of her approach._





Maybe. The cylons have _told_ some people that this is true, but do we have any verification that it is, or it is merely a belief shared by the cylons that this is true?



> _And for some reason they sacrificed that ship by allowing her to put the nuke onboard.  And regardless is it was a much more sound military strategy than sending in your own ship and hoping it's not identified on approach while sending the perfect vessel for the mission off to find the "magic arrow".  Hopefully they address that issue later._





Maybe, but we know for certain that it wasn't necessary for the mission - since it was accomplished anyway, without the raider. Plus, setting priorities is the _President's job_, not Adama's. His job is to follow her orders. He has also shown weak judgment at other times too: his desire to die fighting in a blaze of glory rather than help save the fleet (until Roslin made him see his duty), his willingness to put the entire fleet in jeopardy to save Starbuck, and so on.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 4, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Maybe, but we know for certain that it wasn't necessary for the mission - since it was accomplished anyway, without the raider. Plus, setting priorities is the _President's job_, not Adama's. His job is to follow her orders. He has also shown weak judgment at other times too: his desire to die fighting in a blaze of glory rather than help save the fleet (until Roslin made him see his duty), his willingness to put the entire fleet in jeopardy to save Starbuck, and so on.




Well we know that Cylon piloted Raptors can land on Base Stars without being shot down.   

I agree totally on the finding starbuck thing.  I hated that episode.  That was the one show that I really had to question the writing on.  "Lets pull the air patrol so we can find ONE crewman...".  Pretty damn foolish.  Of course Apollo was fully in line behind pops so I think the stupidity was pretty much spread through the crew.  Of course I had a ton of problems with rest of that episode too.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 4, 2005)

We know that Cylon-piloted Raptors with Cylon white speakerphone-looking thingies on them can fly into Cylon basestars.

Because the Raptor was greeted by Sharons when it arrived, it does seem likely that they somehow knew a Sharon was on board. We don't know, though, if they knew _why_ a Sharon was coming in. My guess, anyway, would be that if they knew she had a nuke, they wouldn't have let her in.

But who knows? They're inscrutable, those Cylons.


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## ecliptic (Aug 4, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No, it isn't. In point of fact, all of the evidence points the other way. Perhaps you could cite _specific_ examples of what you think supports your insane interpretation.




Actually yes I do and it has been brought up in this thread. Episode #102. Panic is breaking out through the fleet and fights over water rations. Roslin requests military to maintain order aboard the ships. Adama refuses her request saying he will not be her policeman.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Actually, her first vision was of the twelve snakes. And Adama's plan would have failed, while the substitute plan that resulted from Roslin's interference worked.




Wrong. Her first vision was in episode #108. Sankes on the podium vision did not take place till episode #110.




			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Have you even been watching the show? Your description of how the cylons "think" is about as off-base as one could be.




Are you confusing their ability to act like humans and their propaganda with their actual train of thought? You ask me if _I_ have been watching the show yet you inaccurately describe alot about the show.




			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> You don't understand responsibility. It would be the responsibility of the military personnel to adhere to their oaths, oaths that, according to Apollo, bind them to follow the laws, the same laws that place the Quorum in charge.




It is the responsibility of the military to keep the civilian populace safe. 




			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I believe that the only person who committed treason is Adama: he refused to obey the lawful order of the President, and then arrested the head of government in violation of the law. You may disagree with Roslin's orders, but refusing to obey them would be treason.




Roslin cannot order Adama. I have said this before.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Except that he can't, legally. He might be able to practically, but that's another matter. Shall we just add this to the long list of innaccuracies and untruths that have flowed from your keyboard in this discussion?




Oh most certainly he can. There has only been one State in the Union that is banned the use of martial law.

It's funny you declare my statements inaccurate but you seem to be ignorant of the facts and seem to make up stuff to suit your arguement. Such as the snakes on the podium being the first vision.
In 1863 Lincoln signed into law the ability for a US President to declare martial law. While the Supreme Court limited under what circumstances that it can be enacted. 



			
				BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Technically she has though.
> 
> IF you remember, in Season 1 she begged Adama to assign military to work police shifts aboard civilian vessels and to help settle disputes, or defend those who are trying to settle them civily.
> 
> ...




Adama refused to use military forces as police when Roslin requested them. Instead wanting her to make a civilian police force. He went on about one protects from the enemy of the state and the other serves and protects the people. Where he then said something about if the two are on in the same, the people usually become the enemy of the state.

Martial law is different for different countries. But the definition of it is when a military authority takes control over the administration of justice and usually the whole state.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Perhaps she is trying to preserve a sense of normality to reassure the citizenry that things will get better at some point. Martial law is a drastic step that would likely unsettle people more than they already are, and may be counterproductive.




It was Roslin who originally wanted military as police. That is a 'sense of normality'?



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> True. That's not martial law. That's a military coup, and a recipe for civil war.




lol yes it is.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Yep, just like arresting the President.




The government leaders are not immune to treason. She commited treason and was arrested for inciting treason.



			
				Rykion said:
			
		

> I don't believe most of the military has kept its structure because of loyalty to the government or its laws. The majority of the military's loyalty is to Commander Adama, and he has kept them in proper military bearing. They arrested the President at his command. A military loyal to the government would be unlikely to follow such an order. Apollo is an exception as he was not part of the Galactica's crew and has a poor relationship with his




Exactly.



			
				Rykion said:
			
		

> Tigh is really screwing things up, and would probably find himself sucking vacuum if Adama died. Adama really doesn't seem to want authority over the civillians. He was angry that the President broke the proper chain of command.




I agree. Adama has shown in the past that he doesn't want control of the civilian government. As long as that civilian government stays out of the way of military opperations. The President went over the line with act of outright treason agains the military government. She went behind his back and risked the entire human population because she was convinced by the religious girl that she is some religious leader.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I doubt it. Most military personnel (in the modern world) don't follow a single charismatic leader because that's the thing to do. They are citizens sworn to uphold the ideals and functions of their government. Most military people follow that: their oath, not their commander.




Your military troop becomes your family and your military leader becomes your father. It is the way of the military. It is the only way that they are able to accomplish some of the things they are able to. They all trust the wisdom of Adama because it was Adama who has basically kept them alive this long.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Except, if the 12 Colonies government is like every other known government that has ever existed, it was Adama who broke the proper chain of command by refusing to follow an order given to him by a superior. Roslin was likely perfectly within her rights to give Starbuck a direct order and bypass Adama. He just had a hissy fit.




It's like I have to repeat this fact over and over. Roslin is not in charge of the military.

She didn't give Starbuck an order, she asked her to commit treason. I mean have you watched the show?


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## Storm Raven (Aug 4, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Actually yes I do and it has been brought up in this thread. Episode #102. Panic is breaking out through the fleet and fights over water rations. Roslin requests military to maintain order aboard the ships. Adama refuses her request saying he will not be her policeman.




Adama doesn't refuse her, he suggests alternatives as being better options, a point that they eventually agree upon. I believe you are misremembering things on purpose at this point.



> _Are you confusing their ability to act like humans and their propaganda with their actual train of thought? You ask me if I have been watching the show yet you inaccurately describe alot about the show._





I doubt if you can descibe creatures that believe in a divine being, and act the way the cylons have acted as being 'only capable of literal thought". I don't think you actually understand what has been put on the screen at all.



> _It is the responsibility of the military to keep the civilian populace safe._





Something Adama shirked from doing in the pilot until forced to by the President. Of course, that's not the responsibility of the military. The responsibility of the military is to _uphold their oaths and follow the lawful orders of their government_.



> _Roslin cannot order Adama. I have said this before._





Are you still going on with this totally disproven canard you've come up with?

HA! HA! HA! HA!

Now you are just proving how silly your arguments are. This "Roslin cannot order Adama" foolishness you keep spouting has been (a) contradicts by the characters on the show, (b) contradicted by the writers and creators of the show, and (c) flies in the face of any known form of government that has ever existed. In other words, you don't have a leg to stand on.

And still you persist. Which exposes your arguments for the utter crap they truly are.



> _Oh most certainly he can. There has only been one State in the Union that is banned the use of martial law._





Um, he can't. It has been declared unConstitutional to do so. Perhaps you need to go back and study some civics.



> _In 1863 Lincoln signed into law the ability for a US President to declare martial law. While the Supreme Court limited under what circumstances that it can be enacted._





They declared it unConstitutional, which no statute can trump.



> _Martial law is different for different countries. But the definition of it is when a military authority takes control over the administration of justice and usually the whole state._





No. Martial law is when military law is applied generally. Military control of the administration of the whole state is a military government, in the BSG case, as the result of a coup.



> _It was Roslin who originally wanted military as police. That is a 'sense of normality'?_





As a temporary measure, and she decided against it, on the very grounds that preserving normality was a good idea.



> _The government leaders are not immune to treason. She commited treason and was arrested for inciting treason._





Going around the chain of command is not treason. Refusing to obey the orders of the head of state is treason. Arresting the head of state because she made a decision you disagree with is treason.



> _I agree. Adama has shown in the past that he doesn't want control of the civilian government. As long as that civilian government stays out of the way of military opperations. The President went over the line with act of outright treason agains the military government._





There is no military government anywhere but inside your mind. There is the government of the 12 Colonies, and nothing else. This "military government" canard you've come up with is a figment of your fevered imagination.

Really, give some evidence that this seperate "military government" of yours exists. Give an example from reality to draw upon. Give an example that has come up in the course of the series where someone has stated that there is this sort of dual government. Come up with a quote.

You won't be able to, because none exists.



> _Your military troop becomes your family and your military leader becomes your father. It is the way of the military. It is the only way that they are able to accomplish some of the things they are able to. They all trust the wisdom of Adama because it was Adama who has basically kept them alive this long._





Only because Roslin directed him to do so. Otherwise they would have all died in a blaze of glory in the series premiere, as a result of Adama's foolish decisions.



> _It's like I have to repeat this fact over and over. Roslin is not in charge of the military._





Because it isn't a "fact". It is a delusion you seem to have become subject to.


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## Vigilance (Aug 4, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I'm more suprised that the entire group is full of devout religious people that would just accept that off the bat.  But we will see how it goes tomorrow night, should be interesting.




Well I am not "accepting it off the bat".

However, based on what I have seen, I am also not dismissing it out of hand.

The fact is, everyone who talked to her about her visions and why she gave the order seem to think she did the right thing.

Starbuck isnt overly religious, yet she was convinced.

Adama might have been had he talked with her, rather than sending a squad of armed goons to arrest her. 

You might be surprised that people dont immediately equate visions with lunacy, but *I* am surprised how many here support rule by the gun rather than the law.

She's being held, with no access to any sort of council and being denied medicine for a terminal illness.

Yeah, Adama's the good guy.

Criminy.

Chuck


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 4, 2005)

Thread closed.

What a shame that my request on page 3 was pretty much ignored by certain parties.

Can I suggest that if you ever feel like doing a point-by-point rebuttle of someone elses post there is very little chance that anything good will come of it.


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