# Epic vs. Demigod Smackdown!!! [Recruiting/Setup]



## Robbert Raets (Apr 24, 2004)

So, I still have this idea left in my head. I want a D&D Smackdown, preferably one that pits Epic-level characters against Demigods, as a test of power. _Can_ balanced characters take out a god? What's the LA on the Deity template?

 Thoughts?


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## Drakknyte32 (Apr 24, 2004)

Very interesting. I admit I've often wondered this myself.

So would these Epic characters be munchkin or non munchkin? And what level, equipment?


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## Robbert Raets (Apr 24, 2004)

Probably level 40 Munchkins vs. level 15-20 Demigods of rank 1-4


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## Serpenteye (Apr 24, 2004)

Robbert Raets said:
			
		

> Probably level 40 Munchkins vs. level 15-20 Demigods of rank 1-4




That's no contest at all   , epic spellcasting can be horribly broken very easily. I'm in.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 24, 2004)

Likewise.  This sounds like it should be interesting.  A couple quick questions: are you using psionics, and and are you using the variant rule whereby Spellcraft rolls for epic casting are based on the primary casting ability, rather than on Intelligence?


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## Drakknyte32 (Apr 24, 2004)

Level 40 munchkins. I've only dreamed of being able to weild that kind of power. I'm definately in.


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## Ferrix (Apr 24, 2004)

heheh... sounds like fun... i'll take a shot at it... are ecl creatures allowed?


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## Tyreus (Apr 24, 2004)

I'm in too. Level 20 gods cannot stand up to level 40 munchkin chars though. Maybe make them level 40 demigods, but not munchkinized. That would make it challanging. Just a suggestion.


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## nameless (Apr 24, 2004)

I'd also give it a shot. I'll play one of the gods, but as Tyreus and SerpentEye said, hopefully higher than level 20 (or with the 20 outsider HD and then 20 levels).


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## Drakknyte32 (Apr 24, 2004)

Or just make it with a tier system. The characters start out with the weaker level 15-20 demigods and gradually work their way up to the really tough level 40 gods.

This would also have the advantage of giving the players time to get used to their characters. I've never built or played a level 40 character before and a few practice rounds would really help.

(I just called level 20 Demigods practice  )


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## Ferrix (Apr 24, 2004)

what materials for building characters are allowed?

either character or god would be fine for me


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## TheOneAboveAll (Apr 25, 2004)

I would like in as well.


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## Cannibal_Kender (Apr 25, 2004)

I'm also interested.


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## Rayex (Apr 25, 2004)

I'm also interested


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## Robbert Raets (Apr 25, 2004)

Yes, pretty much everything with a LA is allowed (it wouldn't be fun without an outsider, minotaur or vampire in the brawl). I also suggest we use the Gladiator rules from Dragon #303, with various archmages and avatars as the audience. So perhaps you should consider who'll be your teammates. (That will make it easier to set up the battles.)

 PS.: This is a great opportunity to test all those nifty (and overpowered?) options in _Unearthed Arcana_


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## buzzard (Apr 25, 2004)

I'll vote in on the epic side, if available. I still don't have Deitites and Demigons. 

buzzard


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 25, 2004)

At the moment, I'm leaning heavily towards a Mind Mage (from a relatively recent Dragon; I can post it if you don't have it).  Would that be acceptable?


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## Thanee (Apr 25, 2004)

Robbert Raets said:
			
		

> This is a great opportunity to test all those nifty (and overpowered?) options in _Unearthed Arcana_




40th level Elan Gestalt Psion / Cleric of Mystra ? 

...plus some various PrC mixed in, of course. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Serpenteye (Apr 25, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> 40th level Elan Gestalt Psion / Cleric of Mystra ?
> 
> ...plus some various PrC mixed in, of course.
> 
> ...




Mmmm, Gestalt...

Gestalt Lish Sorcerer + Ur priest + Mystic Theurge + Epic MT / Druid + Psion + Psionic Theurge + Epic PT.

4 caster classes in one character, all of them with a caster level in the 30s and capable of casting their own epic spells


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## Drakknyte32 (Apr 25, 2004)

Right now I'm thinking a 40th level fighter.
...With a permanent antimagic field item.
That or a void disciple.
Is everyone sure they want to be spellcasters  ?

I don't have AU, Dieties and Demigods, or that Dungeon magazine but I do have the epic level handbook.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 25, 2004)

Drakknyte32 said:
			
		

> Right now I'm thinking a 40th level fighter.
> ...With a permanent antimagic field item.
> That or a void disciple.
> Is everyone sure they want to be spellcasters  ?
> ...




With 12 epic spells and powers castable per day and epic protections from Antimagic I'm sure I'll do just fine


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 25, 2004)

I'm just planning on carrying a staff of Disjunction.


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## Drakknyte32 (Apr 25, 2004)

Right, Void Disciple it is then. You can't cast at what you can't see.


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## nameless (Apr 25, 2004)

Robbert Raets said:
			
		

> Yes, pretty much everything with a LA is allowed (it wouldn't be fun without an outsider, minotaur or vampire in the brawl). I also suggest we use the Gladiator rules from Dragon #303, with various archmages and avatars as the audience. So perhaps you should consider who'll be your teammates. (That will make it easier to set up the battles.)
> 
> PS.: This is a great opportunity to test all those nifty (and overpowered?) options in _Unearthed Arcana_




This seems like it could make your job as DM a lot easier, but it seriously nerfs the Deities. One thing that deities have on mortals is range... even the lowest ranked Demigod has all 5 senses extending a mile, and can use SDAs to make attacks from miles away with no penalty. About half of a demigod's innate powers are simply being able to project senses around the world. When you're as epically powerful as 40th levels and demigods, that kind of knowledge is at least as powerful as epic blast spells.

Unless I (as a demigod) was magically forced into the arena by higher ranked gods, the first thing I would do would be to time stop and teleport a couple of miles away to blast from relative safety.


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## Tyreus (Apr 25, 2004)

Well I'm thinking of playing a wizard. What books are allowed and what variants are you using from the unearthed arcana book?


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## silentspace (Apr 25, 2004)

I'd like in if you're still recruiting.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Apr 26, 2004)

I am thinking 1/2 celestial/[1/2 dragon?  Paragon(with ecl buy out) gestalt paladin/cleric[contemplative-divine disciple-warpriest], monk/fist of Raziel-sword of righteousness.  Or something like that.


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## silentspace (Apr 26, 2004)

Demigods have so many abilities and immunities...  I'm thinking the best way to take one out would be to do a one-round uber-smack.  Maybe some sort of sneak-attack monster, with invisible blade or better yet void disciple thrown in.  Might not be able to surprise them, but void disciple should make 'em flat-footed anyway.  Brilliant energy weapons to get past that pesky fortification armor.  Are there any demigods that are naturally immune to criticals?


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## Tyreus (Apr 26, 2004)

Mind blank makes you immune to the void presence ability. Your best bet for sneak attacks would be having an item of improved blink, giving you a 50% miss chance and every one you attack is flat footed.


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## silentspace (Apr 26, 2004)

Right, it's a mind-affecting ability, which deities are immune to.  Nevermind.


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## nameless (Apr 26, 2004)

I'm quite a tool, I thought this was supposed to be players on both sides. Anyways, now that I've taken a good, hard look at demigods, I think I could lay a decent smacking on one with an epic character. =D

Character creation guidelines would be terrific, but we should also decide on which UA rules we want.


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## Drakknyte32 (Apr 26, 2004)

They might be immune to the void presence, but they would still have to deal with the (Does some quick math) high 80's hide bonus and the snipe ability with ranged weapons. What is the average spot check of dieties anyways?

If void desciple refuses to work I'll probably go with either an Iron golem, a dragon, or a monk. I'm trying to think up a class that would actually be good against high level spellcasters.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 26, 2004)

A drow fighter8/Forsaker30 will have SR 90, which is well beyond the abilities of a low-level god to penetrate.  Alternatively, a rogue30/Iajutsu Master 10 can do astonishing damage with the Flick of the Wrist feat.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Apr 26, 2004)

What is paragon ECL?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 27, 2004)

The SRD, ELH, and Errata all don't list it.  I'd put it at around +15.


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## nameless (Apr 27, 2004)

As far as deities' really dangerous attacks go, the worst I found was the Divine Blast SDA from a high-Cha deity. It ignores SR, DR, antimagic, has no save, and destroys walls of force and prismatic effects on the way to you (from 1 mile per divine rank away). It'll do enough damage to bust through pretty much any physical barrier. A DR 3 deity could easily have a mid-50's charisma score, something like 56d12 with no save from 3 miles away would average 364 damage. A Barbarian 40 with a Con of 40 could barely take 2 of those, and that amount of hp is going to be the exception.

If the gods grab the improved SR SDA, their SR will be around 55, which will be pretty tough to beat for a completely dedicated spellcaster, impossible for a halfway spellcaster. Taking the SR improvement twice is as good as magic immunity.

At level 40, our base saves will be between +26 and +32, plus stat bonuses and resistance bonuses should be above +40 to all saves. The highest save DC one of the gods will be able to manage won't be much above 45, 50 at maximum. Unfortunately, we also probably won't be able to get our DCs that high, and the gods' saves will also be pretty high.

The aformentioned high-Cha god will have an AC of about 50 from deflection, natural armor, and divine bonuses. I'd count on a total AC of about 70ish, and it'll be over 80 if it's really trying hard.

Sneak attacks are one way to go, but it's entirely possible that gods will be immune to crits, have uncanny dodge, have some type of self-concealment, or just have ACs that a rogue can't hit.


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## Drakknyte32 (Apr 27, 2004)

One thing to remember is that not every God will have every ability. Versatality and specific tactics will probably be required to defeat them.

For example:
You start with the bard using it's bardic knowledge to tell you all about the strengths and weaknesses of the gods you are facing.

Then you send in a high level severly buffed rogue to hit that high CHA Divine Blast Deity. It can't use that nasty attack if it can't see you.

Once it is down you bring in the others. The spellcasters hit those gods that are physically strong but magically weak. The Monks and forsakers go after the spellcaster gods and those with high SR. And the clerics use their magic to keep everyone alive and buffed.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Apr 27, 2004)

Sign me up as a pure psion if there's room.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 27, 2004)

It's really all about the epic spellcasting/manifestation.  The mind mage I'm looking at making would be able to boost his saves by a resistance bonus of around 85-90.  With the help of a 110-120 Con, he should be fairly survivable.

EDIT: I forgot to include magical items.  With items of +50 to Spellcraft and Psicraft, it's actually a Con of around 180, and the resistance bonus is around 120-130.


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## nameless (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm considering a melee enthusiast, Monk 11, Dervish 29 (possibly less, if some fun templates/races are available, I especially like the air elemental template from MotP). In a Dervish Dance, the attacks are going to be something like +66/66/66/66/66/61/61/56/56/51/51 from flurry of blows, two weapon fighting with kamas, and haste, and twice per day +66/66/66/66/66/66/66/66/61/61/61/61/56/56/56/56/51/51/51/51, each one doing around 1d6+50 (I haven't looked at enchantments and magic items that might bring the attack and damage higher). That's 20 attacks. I've never played above level 25 or so, though, so I'm not sure the kind of power I'm supposed to be throwing around.


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## silentspace (Apr 27, 2004)

True, if money were no object, epic spellcasting wins hands down.  Unfortunately those epic spells are insanely expensive...  

I think starting wealth at level 40 should be 702,000 gp.  Enough to buy 1 high spellcraft spell, or maybe a few lower spellcraft spells...


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 27, 2004)

Well, you might feel that way, but the ELH lists it as a handy 13.6 million, and I don't mind terribly.


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## Burne (Apr 27, 2004)

Just a quick balance comment from someone who has spent to much time playing and making characters and Gods at the 30th+ level. Divine rank 0 is worth about 3 levels to a epic character. Divine Rank 1 is worth about 5 levels. Every rank beyond that is worth a little more than a level, with the threshold Divine ranks 6,11,16) being worth another.

Compare a 40th level human, with a 30th level human Divine Rank 5 godling and they are pretty close in power assuming you give the Godling stats consumate with the humans after magic items stats.
Other comparisions vary, the 40th wizard vs 30th godling comparison is less favorable unless the god is defense heavy.


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## Ferrix (Apr 27, 2004)

hrm... UA... gestalty goodness

ummm... Thanee stole my idea so i'll figure something else out


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## Ferrix (Apr 27, 2004)

nameless said:
			
		

> I'm considering a melee enthusiast, Monk 11, Dervish 29 (possibly less, if some fun templates/races are available, I especially like the air elemental template from MotP). In a Dervish Dance, the attacks are going to be something like +66/66/66/66/66/61/61/56/56/51/51 from flurry of blows, two weapon fighting with kamas, and haste, and twice per day +66/66/66/66/66/66/66/66/61/61/61/61/56/56/56/56/51/51/51/51, each one doing around 1d6+50 (I haven't looked at enchantments and magic items that might bring the attack and damage higher). That's 20 attacks. I've never played above level 25 or so, though, so I'm not sure the kind of power I'm supposed to be throwing around.




flurry & twf don't work together... although you should go with greater wounding so each hit sucks out 2 con


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## silentspace (Apr 27, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Well, you might feel that way, but the ELH lists it as a handy 13.6 million, and I don't mind terribly.




Were you replying to my post?  Did you mean that the ELH lists starting gold for a 40 lvl char at 13.6 million?  If so, could you give me a page or table number?


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## silentspace (Apr 27, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> flurry & twf don't work together... although you should go with greater wounding so each hit sucks out 2 con




Deities are immune to ability damage


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 27, 2004)

silentspace said:
			
		

> Were you replying to my post?  Did you mean that the ELH lists starting gold for a 40 lvl char at 13.6 million?  If so, could you give me a page or table number?



Bottom right of page 23.


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## silentspace (Apr 27, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Bottom right of page 23.




That makes a lot more sense.


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## nameless (Apr 27, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> flurry & twf don't work together... although you should go with greater wounding so each hit sucks out 2 con




silentspace hit that one on the head. I'm pretty sure TWF and Flurry works together with the special monk weapons, though. Do you have a FAQ entry or rule entry to support that?


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## buzzard (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm contemplating a fairly cheesy troll fighter using adamantine bladed gauntlets. The whole two weapon chain will be used of course.  Yes, I know the weapons aren't that great, but the Wolverine rip off is just calling me. 

buzzard


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## Ferrix (Apr 27, 2004)

buzzard said:
			
		

> I'm contemplating a fairly cheesy troll fighter using adamantine bladed gauntlets. The whole two weapon chain will be used of course.  Yes, I know the weapons aren't that great, but the Wolverine rip off is just calling me.
> 
> buzzard




do fast healing and regeneration work together?

if so, go a feral troll and get some fast healing plus some nice abilities for only another +1 la.

also, take toughness once, and then stack up the roll with it feats from Savage Species... DR 2/- per feat is nothing to laugh at, even at epic

and bladed gauntlets are cool just for effect... i had a kobold barbarian a while ago who dual wielded them, he was crazy and surprisingly quite effective, got himself swallowed by a dragon just so he could wreak havoc on the thing.


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## Drakknyte32 (Apr 27, 2004)

> also, take toughness once, and then stack up the roll with it feats from Savage Species... DR 2/- per feat is nothing to laugh at, even at epic




The Epic Level feat Damage reduction is also good. Prereq is Con 21 and each time you take it you get 3/-



> What is paragon ECL?
> 
> The SRD, ELH, and Errata all don't list it. I'd put it at around +15.




Some very basic math.
ECL of a Paragon Mind Flayer is 26 (Found in ELH)
ECL of a norma Mind Flayer is 15 (Found in Savage Species)
26-15=11
Therefore the ECL of the Paragon Template is +11

Of course that is the munchkins way of looking at it. A much more accurate one would be the +29 ECL from the Immortal's handbook challange rating system. Which actually is accurate since an 11'th level paragon fighter is worse than a 40'th level fighter only by saving throws and number of feats. In return you get damage reduction, fast healing, spell resistance, and massive stat boosts.

But this is supposed to be a munchkin game so level 29 paragon fighter here I come


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## buzzard (Apr 28, 2004)

Did anyone decide what the point buy was?

buzzard


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Apr 28, 2004)

Epic Spellcasting might not be so bad if the DM limits this game to none or 1 round of preparation before the match, disallowing any spells to be active on a person before they enter the arena.

As for my intentions, I plan on abusing Extended Timeless Body (perhaps with Vow of Poverty)/Temporal Acceleration's augmentation.  The former allows me to be immune to practically everything, if not everything while still allowing me to attack.  I'd take Schism and Quicken Power, as well as Unconditional Power, and I'd fill up my epic feats with the feat that gives me 19 pp, for somewhere around 755 pp if I can get around 40 Int.  Something that gives me ton of dex would be helpful as winning initiative is half the battle at high levels it would seem.  It seems the best offensive tactic with Timeless Body however is to use it, then follow by teleporting over (schism or quicken) and breaking a staff of power or putting a portable bag in a dimensional hole .


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## Ferrix (Apr 28, 2004)

so gestalt was mentioned by thanee, y/n? please, it'd be fun

that paragon idea seems like a good one


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## silentspace (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm going to go paladin.  Spirited Charge + Great Smiting.  Add in 10 levels of Cavalier, and your damage goes up to x5!  If he hits, he could take out most demigods in one pass.  Add in a dragon cohort/mount for good measure.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 28, 2004)

silentspace said:
			
		

> I'm going to go paladin.  Spirited Charge + Great Smiting.  Add in 10 levels of Cavalier, and your damage goes up to x5!  If he hits, he could take out most demigods in one pass.  Add in a dragon cohort/mount for good measure.




Of course, that trick only works on _evil_ demigods.


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## silentspace (Apr 28, 2004)

Err... what other types of demigods would a paladin be fighting?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 29, 2004)

silentspace said:
			
		

> Err... what other types of demigods would a paladin be fighting?



Neutral, or chaotic good, with a sufficient difference of opinion.  Even a lawful good one, if it's a tourney or ritual challenge for hierarchy (with True Resurrection, these can be to the death without being particularly serious).


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## Drakknyte32 (Apr 29, 2004)

Well I think I've decided what to play now. It's not a spellcaster but it's pretty effectively munchkined in my opinion.

It is (Drum roll please)
A paragon Black Slaad 2nd level Blackguard

With the proper equipment it should average in the 70's for it's saves, have around 100 AC and 1,000 Hp's, and have 4 touch attacks at around +70 attack bonus.


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## Ferrix (Apr 29, 2004)

Drakknyte32 said:
			
		

> Well I think I've decided what to play now. It's not a spellcaster but it's pretty effectively munchkined in my opinion.
> 
> It is (Drum roll please)
> A paragon Black Slaad 2nd level Blackguard
> ...




yeah that's gonna hurt... 4 touch attacks dealing 10dwhatever and then dealing it again, and again, and again...


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## Drakknyte32 (Apr 29, 2004)

And each of those touch attacks deals half damage again each round for 11 rounds.


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## Robbert Raets (Apr 30, 2004)

Lot of cool ideas out there. But what's the LA on gestalt characters? Half level? And it's up to you if you're playing Epic or a Demigod. Once we have enough players with write-ups, I'll make a draw to set up a 'tournament ladder'.


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## nameless (Apr 30, 2004)

Gestalt characters are only worth about 2 or 3 LA (there is no published number).

We're still waiting on the point-buy or stat generation method, and what other UA rules you might want to use.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Apr 30, 2004)

If you're still accepting, I'd love to be in.

I'm thinking going pure spellcaster using this PrC if it's okay (I've copied it out below) maxed out to lvl 30 (so we're talking abjurer5/banisher30/archmage5).  Maybe I'd also go for a LA race, but I think caster level is necessary for beating demigod SR, and with this character I could have a (let's see here) around +52 to beat SR.  If this PrC isn't okay with you, I'll work something out, still being the dedicated spellcaster.

What kind of point buy are you talking here, any rules variants?

Banisher

The banisher is a mage who specializes in forcing those not of this plane away.  

Requirements:
Skills: Knowledge:The Planes 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Spell Focus: Abjuration, Spell Penetration: Abjuration
Special: Must be able to prepare 3rd level arcane spells at least one of which must be from the school of abjuration.  Must know no conjuration spells.

HD: d4

Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge: All (Int), Spellcraft


```
[b]   BAB  Fort    Ref    Will  Abilities[/b]
1. +0    +0     +0     +2    Turn Outsider                  +1 spellcaster level     
2. +1    +0     +0     +3    Abjurant Focus +1            +1 spellcaster level
3. +1    +1     +1     +3    Abjurant Penetration +1    +1 spellcaster level
4. +2    +1     +1     +4    Extra Abjuration               +1 spellcaster level
5. +2    +1     +1     +4    Abjurant Focus +2            +1 spellcaster level
6. +3    +2     +2     +5    Abjurant Penetration +2    +1 spellcaster level
7. +3    +2     +2     +5    Versatile Banishment        +1 spellcaster level
8. +4    +2     +2     +6    Abjurant Focus +3            +1 spellcaster level
9. +4    +3     +3     +6    Abjurant Penetration +3    +1 spellcaster level
10.+5    +3     +3     +7    Word of Ending               +1 spellcaster level
```

Abilities:

Turn Outsider:  The banisher may turn outsiders at his caster level, using int instead of char.  If the banisher double the HD of the outsider in question, it is banished instead of rebuked.

Abujurant Focus:  At second level the DC of all abjuration school spells cast by the banisher increases by +1.  At fifth level this rises to +2, and at eight to +3.

Abjurant Penetration: The Banisher gets this bonus to caster level checks to beat SR using abjuration school spells.

Extra Abjuration:  The Banisher gets an extra slot of each spell level he can cast which must be used to prepare a spell from the abjuration school.

Versatile Banishing:  The banisher may affect creatures other than outsiders with abjuration spells that only target outsiders, and may banish creatures to planes not their native planes (the native plane of a non-outsider is determined by their alignment).  A non-outsider gets +4 on saves to resist these spells, and creatures get +4 to resist spells that banish them to planes not their own.  These stack.

World of Ending: With a single word (counts as a quickened spell) the banisher may Banish up to 3 HD of creatures per caster level (as per the spell Banish) and target all magical effects in a hundred foot radius with a dispel magic (no maximum bonus).  The Banisher may use this ability once per day.  For saves, this counts as a 10th level spell of the abjuration school.

Epic Banishers:  Every 5 levels after eighth the abjurant focus goes up by +1, and ever 5 levels after 9th the penetration goes up by one.  At 20th level, all save bonuses from versatile banishing are halved, and at 30th level word of banishing counts as a 15th level spell and banishes 4 HD per caster level.


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## nameless (May 4, 2004)

It's been a few days and no activity, are you still interested in running this Robbert?


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## Jemal (May 4, 2004)

I'm so tempted to join in on this, but with only Core rules at my disposal, I'ld be a bit underpowered.


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## buzzard (May 5, 2004)

Jemal said:
			
		

> I'm so tempted to join in on this, but with only Core rules at my disposal, I'ld be a bit underpowered.




Heck I've got a fair number of books, and what I've seen mentioned here already makes my idea look like a limp creampuff. 

Sheesh. Somebody is just going to have to take away any rights I have to be called a powergamer. 

buzzard


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## TheOneAboveAll (May 7, 2004)

Is this still going to happen?  If so what rules will we be using?


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## Robbert Raets (May 9, 2004)

Something like this can practically run itself, just like the Fight Club forum.

 Hmm.... 30 point buy for ability scores?


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