# Witch Girls Adventures



## dm4hire (May 16, 2009)

So I was trolling Gaming Report when I saw the post for this game.  Witch Girl Adventures  I like the concept and wish them luck getting girls into gaming, but I'm wondering if they haven't missed their mark by just focusing on girls.

What's everyone's thought about this?  Any of the ladies want to chime in and give their opinion of the game.

Note: There is a free PDF of the fast play rules for making a character at the website.


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## Nifft (May 16, 2009)

When I went to the website, my mind immediately classified the girls in the picture as WoD Mages: Entropy, Matter, Spirit on the left, and Forces, Correspondence (Virtual Adept), and Life (Verbeena) on the right.

No experience with Witch Girls, but Mage was fun.

Cheers, -- N


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## Cadfan (May 16, 2009)

I like the idea of a game marketed specifically to girls.  In my ideal world, popular fantasy gaming would be less marketed to guys, or at least marketed to both guys and girls, but since I don't see that happening I'd settle for this.


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## Channelm (May 16, 2009)

We're really focusing on bring ing new players into the hobby.
With new players Table top RPG's are deader than disco.

Our goal (long term) is to try to bring Table top RPG's in the form of our Drama Diaries game to a neglected and growing community of imaginative people.

If you look at  the growth of anime, manga/comics. The rise of fan fics, shipping and the like among girls then you'll see there is no reason those girls shouldn't be gaming.

The reason they are not is no one is writing for them or focusing on them (Or so we think).

Playtesting at Anime Cons and non-gaming events (Girl scout gatherings and the like) we discovered girls are up to the task big time.  We also discovered most of them had no idea table top RPG gaming existed till they played our game.

I have to ask what's wrong with an inndustry were an entire generation has no idea it exists?

Thank you for opening this discussion by the way . If you have questions just ask 
Malcolm
Channel M Publishing
www.witchgirlsadventures.com


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## Cadfan (May 16, 2009)

Channelm said:


> If you look at the growth of anime, manga/comics. The rise of fan fics, shipping and the like among girls then you'll see there is no reason those girls shouldn't be gaming.



I definitely agree with this part.  Good luck!


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## Hussar (May 16, 2009)

Very, very interesting.

With the success of the Bela Sera CCG, I think it's great the we're starting to see TTG's finally start targetting girls.


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## Channelm (May 16, 2009)

So I have a few questions.

*What kind of supplements do you think we need?*
We have a few things coming soon, some free some for sell. We're keeping our prices low (all supplments under 12 dollars is the goal)

*If you were us how would you promote or products?*
We have done a lot of things but We're open to new ideas.


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## shilsen (May 16, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> I like the idea of a game marketed specifically to girls.  In my ideal world, popular fantasy gaming would be less marketed to guys, or at least marketed to both guys and girls, but since I don't see that happening I'd settle for this.



Seconded. I've gamed (mostly D&D, with some M&M) with a lot of women but I'm very aware of the fact that they're playing the game despite the fact that its marketing and much of the gaming community is (admittedly sometimes unthinkingly) exclusionary to them. So anything which works against that is a bonus in my book.


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## Channelm (May 16, 2009)

shilsen said:


> I'm very aware of the fact that they're playing the game despite the fact that its marketing and much of the gaming community is (admittedly sometimes unthinkingly) exclusionary to them. quote]
> 
> Sadly there are a lot of people in the game publishing industry against of expanding the Hobby's base.
> 
> They would rather try to hold on to what they have (auidence) then expand. I say all the above from actual arguments I've had on Game Publisher forums and live panels.


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## Primitive Screwhead (May 16, 2009)

Two suggestions on your main page.

The left text scroll needs edited
I presume "...Designed for aimed at girls it  allows ..." really means "..Designed for and aimed at girls , this game allows ..."
  Ick.. I just read the rest of that sentence, which looks like a copy/paste from the books intro. 
  Since I can not get to the Parent FAQ page, I am not sure if this game is supposed to assist in reading comprehension and grammer skills. This intro suggests otherwise.

Not sure that this pure marketting speak should be written this way. I am a computer geek, so the web page itself speaks more than the content.

For instance:
 - Your FAQ frame page doesn't have active links.
 - Your second frame {with content} has the 'click here' hand enabled, even tho you can't click on 90% of the page. Makes looking for links to look into the product a bit annoying. Example.. looking for details on why there is a 'Wicked Edition'.. normally you click on the picture to get details..and there is a 'click here' hand...but either the link is broken or doesn't exist.
 - You are using mini inline frames with long scroll bars. As long as the broweser settings are right, this can look and work well. 


As a parent of a 14 year old girl..
 - 'Girl' may not be the right thing to call her if you want her respect {sometimes.. you know how it is...  }
 - I might be interested in pitching this to her if there was more than the core book. The first 'real' module isn't scheduled until Sept 2009?
 - Whats the 'Wicked Edition'? She is sure to ask...


Just my >2 cents


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## Channelm (May 16, 2009)

Primitive Screwhead said:


> Two suggestions on your main page.
> 
> As a parent of a 14 year old girl..
> - 'Girl' may not be the right thing to call her if you want her respect {sometimes.. you know how it is...  }
> ...




Thank you for the help
-Faq page broke during an update, its fixed
-The core rule book is more than rules. Its also a source book/campaign book and monster manual starting adventure and more.

-I'll add more info on the wicked edition.  So you know its the same core rule book ith diffrent illustrations, diffrent comic and more wicked text and so on. You can only buy it on the website or at conventions.

The first ssue of 13 magazine should also be ready by the end of june and the witch girls tales comic contains more game info.


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## Dausuul (May 17, 2009)

Quick note - the white lettering on the starry-beige background at the top of the site is very hard to read.  Not nearly enough contrast, and the combination of fancy lettering with busy background is painful.

Further comments once I've looked around a bit...

Edit: Okay, further comments. The artistic style works well for the game. Concept seems reasonably cool. The game itself seems a bit number-crunchy - at least what I can tell from glancing over the character creation stuff. I'm not going to get into the question of "What do women want in a game?", but I will say that the target audience for a game about playing witches at a magical academy is probably not going to be all that excited about the number-crunching, optimizing, abstract-mathematics-for-its-own-sake side of RPGs.

I assume Wicked Edition characters are compatible with regular ones?


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## Channelm (May 17, 2009)

_but I will say that the target audience for a game about playing witches at a magical academy is probably not going to be all that excited about the number-crunching, optimizing, abstract-mathematics-for-its-own-sake side of RPGs_

number crunchy?
not as much as you think if you look it over in detail.
you never really have to add anything higher than 24.
and the rolls are based on a set difficulty number. or highest roll.


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## ArghMark (May 17, 2009)

Actually I have a 10 year old niece that I plan to introduce into the hobby. I've briefly had a look; this game seems like it might interest her. I'm thinking I might run it and my wife play.
Unfortunately I don't have any other young female relatives who would be interested.


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## The Grackle (May 17, 2009)

The artwork is great.


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## Starfox (May 17, 2009)

I think RPGs is something that men and women, or girls and boys for that matter, can do together. But I also see a very strong case for letting girls start in groups of their own. It is easier for them to "take up space" with only other girls around; to go in their own direction and not just be "good little girls". This builds confidence they can then use in mixed games. After having learnt the basics and gained some confidence, RPGs can be a social venue where women prosper and compete well with men, no problem whatsoever. But for a girl to start acting out in a mixed group can be hard - especially if the group starts out with a typically male teen or pre-teen macho violent theme.

Mixed groups are often very fun to play with. In my personal experience, the women of mixed groups, after gaining some confidence, like to play around with pretty male-ish concepts. They are often quite violent and direct in their approach. Male players, on the other hand, often show more malleable and social sides of themselves as they gain confidence. While this is just my personal experience, I think it is a very good thing and lets people develop sides of themselves they might not normally do.


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## Loonook (May 17, 2009)

Why do we need a game specifically marketing to girls?  Math is too hard?

This just seems a very... self-serving sort of game.  I have no issue with a setting or developing something for a market... but it just seems kind of condescending to say that a game should be made specifically for girls.  

Hell, plenty of interesting easy-to-learn games for kids... and some real great ones (like Little Fears) which could be used with kids pretty readily.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Hunter In Darkness (May 17, 2009)

Loonook said:


> This just seems a very... self-serving sort of game.  I have no issue with a setting or developing something for a market... but it just seems kind of condescending to say that a game should be made specifically for girls.




I fail to see anything condecending about it. Seems smart  to me. Items have been aimed at girls for ages, and yes some kids would say something like " Girls can't play this or you wouldn't understand this is guy stuff"

Seems to me an RPG aimed at girls might just do it's job- bring more girls into the hobby. That can't be a bad thing


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## Channelm (May 17, 2009)

Starfox said:


> I think RPGs is something that men and women, or girls and boys for that matter, can do together. But I also see a very strong case for letting girls start in groups of their own. It is easier for them to "take up space" with only other girls around; to go in their own direction and not just be "good little girls". This builds confidence they can then use in mixed games. After having learnt the basics and gained some confidence, RPGs can be a social venue where women prosper and compete well with men, no problem whatsoever. But for a girl to start acting out in a mixed group can be hard - especially if the group starts out with a typically male teen or pre-teen macho violent theme.





We've had a lot of all girl groups in playtesting/demos. We've had mom's and daughters play, sisters and we've had a few guys play (Mostly at cons).

The dynamic of all girls is totally diffrent. As a Director (GM) it allows not only my players to expand themselves but it allows me to expand as a person telling a story.

Girls/ladies in groups of all or mostly girls/ladies tend to want a lot more story, a lot more drama. yes they get into fights but they think their way out a lot more too.  They are also (from my experince) really good at co-telling the story through their Star (character.)

To the point, what we want from this to give girls a chance to grow into the hobby, understand it and love it as we love it and at our demos I'm seeing that.


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## Channelm (May 17, 2009)

ArghMark said:


> Actually I have a 10 year old niece that I plan to introduce into the hobby. I've briefly had a look; this game seems like it might interest her. I'm thinking I might run it and my wife play.
> Unfortunately I don't have any other young female relatives who would be interested.




Hola Mark.

2 can be a great game but why not do what others have doine for demos. make it a slumber party game with witch based snacks, crafts and then the game.

With younger kids there are a lot of ways to get more kids involved because you can link it to other events.


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## Proserpine (May 17, 2009)

I love this idea. And I'm very pleased to see that the characters listed on the website include people who aren't white. Excellent! In regards to the artwork, my only criticism is that their body types are all the same (though I am happy to see that the faces are generally distinctive). Since this is targeting a younger female audience, I think this would be an awesome opportunity to subtly create some body positivity by including a range of sizes.

In regards to the OP, I don't think this is missing the mark. D&D, for example, is egalitarian in regards to rules. But some of the actual settings are gender skewed with their leadership, deities, et cetera, which reminds me that apparently even in escapist fantasy, my fellow (albeit imaginary) females are not as good. But the issue isn't really overt sexism as much as it is the fact that stuff is being marketed primarily to men. And unfortunately people subconsciously perpetuate patriarchal, male-centric norms on their own. The homebrew game I play in, for example, has one female in a position of power, and she might not even really be a woman. But I don't think the creators of the setting really meant for that.

That said, that's precisely why it would be nice to play in something marketed towards women. I play in games that barely target me - guys can do the same.


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## Loonook (May 17, 2009)

Hunter In Darkness said:


> I fail to see anything condecending about it. Seems smart  to me. Items have been aimed at girls for ages, and yes some kids would say something like " Girls can't play this or you wouldn't understand this is guy stuff"
> 
> Seems to me an RPG aimed at girls might just do it's job- bring more girls into the hobby. That can't be a bad thing




Which really isn't much of a thing I've seen in the geek community I grew up in or played in.  As I said before... not really understanding it.

The thing that irritates is that this girl's game seems to be pointed out as a girl's game... because the math isn't too hard.  Which is just crap... 

Ehh, whatever.  Give up on the topic.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## shilsen (May 17, 2009)

Channelm said:


> Sadly there are a lot of people in the game publishing industry against of expanding the Hobby's base.
> 
> They would rather try to hold on to what they have (auidence) then expand. I say all the above from actual arguments I've had on Game Publisher forums and live panels.




Sad, but unfortunately, not surprising.

BTW, I gave a shoutout to your game on the thread I started here about sexism in D&D and catering to a wider audience.


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

shilsen said:


> Sad, but unfortunately, not surprising.
> 
> BTW, I gave a shoutout to your game on the thread I started here about sexism in D&D and catering to a wider audience.




Thank you so much.

I really like the fact that thread and this one has managed to get people thinking about sexism in gaming.

I've been in the gaming industry a long time. I've worked on a lot of games.  Witch Witch Girls I think I've had the most "backlash" with other other game companies and long time gamers because a apparant unwritten rule about wanting to bring change to the industry.

There is also people who i meet who feel inteidated by the concept up to the point  guys tell me, "So if there isn't  guy-witches what can I play to hunt them or kill them in the game " said not tongue in cheek but with spite and hate.  

Another thing i get is the "Why are you letting them in to our world" as if Gaming is for a specific type of person and I'm opening the door for another type of person.

To all the above I say Gaming is for everyone! And I'm showing my love for gaming by wanting to bring in new life by bringing in new players.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (May 18, 2009)

Channelm said:


> There is also people who i meet who feel inteidated by the concept up to the point guys tell me, "So if there isn't guy-witches what can I play to hunt them or kill them in the game " said not tongue in cheek but with spite and hate.




WOW..the sad part is if there was a movie or novel based on this game, I have no doubt the main character would be the first/only/chosen male to weild the female power. And all the world would see he who holds the same (or near the same) power the girls do to be special...It's just how things like this work



> Another thing i get is the "Why are you letting them in to our world" as if Gaming is for a specific type of person and I'm opening the door for another type of person.




     Can i break them the bad news, that I have been Infiltrating for the last 13 years, and managed to be a woman, AND a role-player. (The horror)




BY the way, I love the idea, I just wish it didn't have the 'starter game' feel.


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## Crothian (May 18, 2009)

Channelm said:


> "So if there isn't  guy-witches what can I play to hunt them or kill them in the game " said not tongue in cheek but with spite and hate.




Even without guy witches are their guy character options?  Buffy didn't have any guy slayers in it but it did have role for males even if they were not on par with the power of the main character.


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## Crothian (May 18, 2009)

dp..


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

Crothian said:


> Even without guy witches are their guy character options? Buffy didn't have any guy slayers in it but it did have role for males even if they were not on par with the power of the main character.




We have optional wizard rules, you can play a witch girl.  There are other races (even Humans) that'll be part of their  own supplement in the near future.


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## roguerouge (May 18, 2009)

If at all possible, try to garner free publicity through condemnations from various anti-Occult organizations. Since you're selling to teens, this might be possible despite your inoffensive illustrations. At the cost of one free copy, you too could become "edgy" and "dangerous"!

Absent that, I recommend contacting Wicca organizations. Try contacting these folks (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=&c=twv&id=1927) for a review of your content, either for advice or a real review for their audience. Be prepared to face the stereotypes you didn't know you had.


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## Hexmage-EN (May 18, 2009)

Channelm said:


> -I'll add more info on the wicked edition.  So you know its the same core rule book ith diffrent illustrations, diffrent comic and more wicked text and so on. You can only buy it on the website or at conventions.




What does that mean, exactly? It's the same core rules with the flavor changed in an effort to appeal to girls who aren't "girly girls"?


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (May 18, 2009)

Channelm said:


> -I'll add more info on the wicked edition. So you know its the same core rule book ith diffrent illustrations, diffrent comic and more wicked text and so on. You can only buy it on the website or at conventions.






Hexmage-EN said:


> What does that mean, exactly? It's the same core rules with the flavor changed in an effort to appeal to girls who aren't "girly girls"?





Somehow I missed this the first time through. So what do you mean by this? Does this take a G rated game and ramp it up to PG-13…or Does it take a PG game up to R? Is it meant to play the villains, or is it meant to play anti-heroes, or just darker games?  Or is it all just a little refluff???


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## dm4hire (May 18, 2009)

Channelm said:


> Thank you for opening this discussion by the way . If you have questions just ask
> Malcolm
> Channel M Publishing
> www.witchgirlsadventures.com




You are welcome.  I'm glad to see my post is stirring debate.  I don't have a problem with the game being a focus for girls and hope that it indeed brings more into our hobby.  My concern was that to survive it might be better to present the game to both genders.

I'm glad to see that there are plans to present rules for boys to play.  I printed off the PDF and after reading it passed it on to the manager of my FLGS for his daughter.  We discussed the issue and both agreed that perhaps presenting identical games that can be combined, one for each gender, would probably be a smart things.  The game is geared toward pre and early year teens who tend to be at that awkward point in their development where mixing with the opposite sex is still uncomfortable, both seeming to be afraid of catching something from the other.

Two separate core books, but a shared campaign setting could be workable.  Perhaps it could present guidelines on how to deals with a specific school presenting rules for running it as either a school for one gender or both.

I'm wondering if the Wicked Edition is designed more for older teens.  I could see it tailored with mature content that would appease older girls, but without more details it's pure speculation.


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## Lwaxy (May 18, 2009)

roguerouge said:


> If at all possible, try to garner free publicity through condemnations from various anti-Occult organizations. Since you're selling to teens, this might be possible despite your inoffensive illustrations. At the cost of one free copy, you too could become "edgy" and "dangerous"!
> 
> Absent that, I recommend contacting Wicca organizations. Try contacting these folks (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=&c=twv&id=1927) for a review of your content, either for advice or a real review for their audience. Be prepared to face the stereotypes you didn't know you had.





Oh dear... first, being a "witch" isn't all about Wiccan. I'm pagan myself, which is why I reject the blatant sexism in this game even more than I normally would. You will find most people following a pagan tradition (which includes as much males as females btw) will feel rather insulted by games/books/movies/TV shows like this one mostly for the sexist stereotypes it portrays. 

This game does a disservice to pagans, and it also does a disservice to girls with putting them into stereotypes most girls I know want to get out of. It feels so wrong I am feeling slightly sick just thinking about it. 

There are plenty of options to both get girls gaming and make a reasonable witch based RPG. The way this game is, it just should not not have happened.


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## Keefe the Thief (May 18, 2009)

Channelm said:


> Thank you so much.
> 
> I really like the fact that thread and this one has managed to get people thinking about sexism in gaming.
> 
> ...




You see that attitude a lot - "they" are invading our hobby, coupled with condescending and snide remarks. I´ve always "loved" the notion that Dragonlance was when "thespians" invaded D&D and turned it into a story-based game. God, the threads i´ve seen about that.... 

Anyway, kudos to you sir. If money wouldnt be tight, i´d be buying your game immediately. And if you ever translate it to German, i´ll force my girlfried to buy a copy. Heck, i would translate it for that. Stay true to your calling - we have to expand the hobby if we want to see it grow and florish.



Lwaxy said:


> Oh dear... first, being a "witch" isn't all about Wiccan. I'm pagan myself, which is why I reject the blatant sexism in this game even more than I normally would. You will find most people following a pagan tradition (which includes as much males as females btw) will feel rather insulted by games/books/movies/TV shows like this one mostly for the sexist stereotypes it portrays.
> 
> This game does a disservice to pagans, and it also does a disservice to girls with putting them into stereotypes most girls I know want to get out of. It feels so wrong I am feeling slightly sick just thinking about it.
> 
> There are plenty of options to both get girls gaming and make a reasonable witch based RPG. The way this game is, it just should not not have happened.




And i´m sure there would have been loads of ways of creating D&D without the stereotypes contained about:
- Mythology.
- Medieval Culture.
- Magic.
- Ancient History. 
- Fighters.

D&D really shouldn´t have happened. 

Hmm, come to think, Charmed is really a disgrace to TV, isn´t it? Why isn´t the witch/girl community doing something about it? I´ll ask my girlfriend to stop watching it.

Edit: And please, by all means, describe a "decent witch-based RPG."


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## vagabundo (May 18, 2009)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> WOW..the sad part is if there was a movie or novel based on this game, I have no doubt the main character would be the first/only/chosen male to weild the female power. And all the world would see he who holds the same (or near the same) power the girls do to be special...It's just how things like this work




Paul Atreides from Dune to prove your point.


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## Charwoman Gene (May 18, 2009)

Keefe the Thief said:


> Hmm, come to think, Charmed is really a disgrace to TV, isn´t it?




Yes it is.


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## Hunter In Darkness (May 18, 2009)

Edit: Had my coffee will keep my personal thoughts to myself

Still think an RPG aimed more toward girls is a good ideal however


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## Wepwawet (May 18, 2009)

Lwaxy said:


> This game does a disservice to pagans, and it also does a disservice to girls with putting them into stereotypes most girls I know want to get out of. It feels so wrong I am feeling slightly sick just thinking about it.



Hey, there's a start! Better than getting free publicity only from anti-occult groups, is also having controversy in the pagan groups 

Anyway, congratulations on this game, sounds like a great idea


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## Charwoman Gene (May 18, 2009)

No, Hardcore DND Girl, to say that this would get adapted with a male lead is ridiculous.  I have wracked my brain looking for an example and can't find one.  Can you please point to an example of a "girl-power" IP that was translated to another medium and picked up a male as the main protagonist?

Dune (And its Derivative The Wheel of Time) which have a bit of "stealing the girl-magic" sexism are not translations of "girl-power" properties.

[sblock=Note on my gender]I find it helpful to note the I am male despite the "Charwoman" in my name.  When discussing sexism I think it important to point out that I am not female.[/sblock]


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

Hexmage-EN said:


> What does that mean, exactly? It's the same core rules with the flavor changed in an effort to appeal to girls who aren't "girly girls"?




Exactly. The costs are the same, the rules are the same.
It's really up to the buyer which one they purchase.


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> Somehow I missed this the first time through. So what do you mean by this? Does this take a G rated game and ramp it up to PG-13…or Does it take a PG game up to R? Is it meant to play the villains, or is it meant to play anti-heroes, or just darker games? Or is it all just a little refluff???




Either version can be played G to PG-13. In either version you can play a wicked witch. The Wicked edition justs gives more focus on the wicked witch.


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## roguerouge (May 18, 2009)

Lwaxy said:


> Oh dear... first, being a "witch" isn't all about Wiccan.




Well, duh. Did you read the bios at the site I posted? And in my experience presenting at conferences on witchcraft, the number of pagans in the audience and as presenters vastly outnumber the number of say, Muslims or Christians. There is some overlap. 



Lwaxy said:


> I'm pagan myself, which is why I reject the blatant sexism in this game even more than I normally would.




Please present your evidence for blatant sexism in the game. You've asserted something fairly serious, but provided no examples, no quotations, nothing. I'm willing to hear you out on this one, although to the extent that it is sexist, then my experience with the media coordinator of that organization tells me that the flaw will be pointed out. 



Lwaxy said:


> You will find most people following a pagan tradition (which includes as much males as females btw) will feel rather insulted by games/books/movies/TV shows like this one mostly for the sexist stereotypes it portrays.




Again, did you read the link I posted? 3 women and 4 men are included there amongst the site's major contributors.

And, again, since you haven't presented any evidence for your opinion beside "I'm offended!" it's hard to take your opinion about what ALL PEOPLE of a particular faith will feel. 



Lwaxy said:


> This game does a disservice to pagans, and it also does a disservice to girls with putting them into stereotypes most girls I know want to get out of. It feels so wrong I am feeling slightly sick just thinking about it.




I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps you could explain why?


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## roguerouge (May 18, 2009)

Keefe the Thief said:


> Hmm, come to think, Charmed is really a disgrace to TV, isn´t it? Why isn´t the witch/girl community doing something about it? I´ll ask my girlfriend to stop watching it.




As a Buffy fan, I could not agree with you more. Since I always give series a full season to win me over, I suffered through a full season of Charmed, discovering that, yes, it really is written to showcase costume changes. Second worst TV experience after suffering through the first season of Babylon 5.


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## carmachu (May 18, 2009)

Loonook said:


> Why do we need a game specifically marketing to girls? Math is too hard?
> 
> This just seems a very... self-serving sort of game. I have no issue with a setting or developing something for a market... but it just seems kind of condescending to say that a game should be made specifically for girls.




Because girls and boys are different? And  perhaps arent looking for the same thing in a game? Becuase its obvious in the toy industry boys and girls dont always want the same thing....otherwise all toys would be the same...instead of transformers and GI Joe vs My little pony and disney princesses....


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## carmachu (May 18, 2009)

Quick question:

I can add the regular edition to the cart, but the wicked edition doesnt have a cart on paypal, just goes to log in....is the wicked edition ready or just a glitch?


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## Lwaxy (May 18, 2009)

Keefe the Thief said:


> And i´m sure there would have been loads of ways of creating D&D without the stereotypes contained about:
> - Mythology.
> - Medieval Culture.
> - Magic.
> ...




The few stereotypes in D&D, like certain types of creatures needing certain alignments and fighters being dumb, can easily be ignored. The game is what you make of it, so no, D&D is in no way comparable to this witch girl game. 



Keefe the Thief said:


> Hmm, come to think, Charmed is really a disgrace to TV, isn´t it? Why isn´t the witch/girl community doing something about it? I´ll ask my girlfriend to stop watching it.




Charmed is one of those shows that shouldn't have ever happened. There is a lot of discussion about it on several community  boards. I didn't even know much about the show (hardly watch TV) until a few years ago when a neighbour kid asked me if I was anything like the women in the show... Gah. 

But seriously, what do you want the pagan communities (there are quite a few) to "do about it?" Do you really think a TV show producer would care about what a minority without much of a lobby thinks? And I've been told the show is a hit among the non-pagan female population, likely because it portrays women as powerful. 



Keefe the Thief said:


> Edit: And please, by all means, describe a "decent witch-based RPG."




Must not have 

- roles exclusively filled by one gender, especially not a presentation suggesting males can't be witches

Shouldn't have

- colour schemes associated with "girly" stuff - news to the world, plenty of girls hate those colours anyway. 
- characters all portrayed as if from a teenage fashion magazin

Must have

- equal opportunities for males and females 
- a way to "let girls be girls" without putting so much weight on gender stereotypes. While plenty of girls like those stereotypes (well they need to come from somewhere) there are as many who do not. And strengthening stereotypes might be good for the sales, at least for a while, but it isn't good in the big picture. 
- a way to tie it into the real world that does not make it a mockery of any faith or makes you think of certain TV shows or books - or just simply place it in a fantasy setting, an alternate earth would do fine

Should have

- a clear explanation that it is just a GAME and in not related to any pagan lifestyle - yes this should be a no brainer, but it isn't. It is weird how many kids, especially girls, seem to think that stuff like Charmed or those Witch Girl books do resemble what RL "witchcraft" is all about. 


Now of course this game is based on books so can't stray much from the path, which is the main problem. But that aside, many GMs could create a setting "mostly for girls but if boys want in fine" for their teenage players. Actually, I think I will do that if they show any interest in such an idea.


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

carmachu said:


> Quick question:
> 
> I can add the regular edition to the cart, but the wicked edition doesnt have a cart on paypal, just goes to log in....is the wicked edition ready or just a glitch?




It's a glitch. I'll rebuild paypay button today.


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## Crothian (May 18, 2009)

Are you guys going to be at Origins or Gen Con?


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

Lwaxy said:


> The few stereotypes in D&D, like certain types of creatures needing certain alignments and fighters being dumb, can easily be ignored. The game is what you make of it, so no, D&D is in no way comparable to this witch girl game.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I was going to stay out of this. I really wanted too.

The book has a disclaimer inside about not promteing or being a representation of an actual belief system.  If you look at the game faq on the site you'll see;

*Why are there no wizards?*
_Most witches in our game are girls (although you can play a boy witch if you’d like!) If you want to play a game with wizards, muggles, dark masters of magic and mystical schools in England using these rules, you certainly can. Witch Girls Adventures is a very flexible game, so while there are no wizards in the rules as we’ve written them, in your game you can add them if you please._
*Do this book and site promote witchcraft?*
_No. This book is a work of entertainment-based fiction. It promotes no particular real world religion or belief system, at all. It’s all make-believe and designed for fun and entertainment only._

I'm sorry the game offends you . I have no doubt it'll offend some people. 

When making the game I had two Wiccan friends a couple (Male and female) go over it and I asked them, "Let me know if you find anything overly offensive. They said no.

That's good enough for me, I trust these people and their understanding and faith in their faith.  

That being said.

CHARMED SUCKED!




​


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## Wepwawet (May 18, 2009)

Channelm said:


> CHARMED SUCKED!




I kinda liked it. It was a soap opera with magic, some funny moments and, as someone said, the main characters were powerful women, and you don't see that much.


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## roguerouge (May 18, 2009)

Lwaxy said:


> Shouldn't have
> 
> - colour schemes associated with "girly" stuff - news to the world, plenty of girls hate those colours anyway.
> - characters all portrayed as if from a teenage fashion magazin




So, in short, you're against all things femme.



Lwaxy said:


> Must have
> 
> - equal opportunities for males and females
> - a way to "let girls be girls" without putting so much weight on gender stereotypes. While plenty of girls like those stereotypes (well they need to come from somewhere) there are as many who do not. And strengthening stereotypes might be good for the sales, at least for a while, but it isn't good in the big picture.
> - a way to tie it into the real world that does not make it a mockery of any faith or makes you think of certain TV shows or books - or just simply place it in a fantasy setting, an alternate earth would do fine




And you've still not answered why it is that single gender activities are bad. You've still not answered why femme is bad. You've still not explained what text of the game makes it a mockery of a faith. 

You've ignored the actual game every step of the way, exclusively commenting on the art work. 

You've not presented an informed opinion, which is the only opinion that matters.


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

Wepwawet said:


> I kinda liked it. It was a soap opera with magic, some funny moments and, as someone said, the main characters were powerful women, and you don't see that much.




I agree with the last part. 

Speaking if sort if, The Rule book has a special dedication to a TV show about magic. The Orginal and one of my favorites "Bewitched".


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## Lwaxy (May 18, 2009)

roguerouge said:


> Did you read the bios at the site I posted?



 *snip* 


There is some arguing among English speaking pagans about that site you posted the link for. I can't say I like it much, either, it is just not my type of thing. Anyway, I'm a bit allergic to "Wicca" by now because most of the time if time someone hears about me being pagan and they do not associate it with some book or TV show, it is assumed I mean Wicca. 

I never said that "all" pagans would dislike this. Most would probably not care either way as they are used to all that "charmedy-girly" stuff out there by now. I keep hearing stories from the owner of the pagan shop I frequent, though, how young girls, sometimes not even teens, come in there and want to be like this or that witch in some TV show or book. Then they ask for all those "witchcraft for beginners" books written by people without any knowledge marketed as Charmed merchandise. 

On the forums, there's hardly a week without some Charmed-or-whatever-else fangirl coming in and ask about how to be a witch and get around doing RL stuff like homework or how she can curse her teacher or get a love charm for the boy she likes etc. Usually accompanied by "how many people did you curse/hex" and such. It is not only an inconvenience, it clearly shows how paganism is misinterpreted thanks to shows like charmed and books like Witch Girls. Then strangely, when the parents find out the girls (and the occasional boy) have been to our forums, suddenly it is OUR fault for putting something in the kid's heads... yeah right. 

This is of course the same for almost all shows/books being set in RL surroundings - if there would be a prominent Christian show out there, let's say an exorcist traveling and freeing people of all the demons, you could expect the kids liking the show thinking of the Catholic church being made up of exorcists and other demon-fighting  folks. As the Catholic church does exist RL,  kids will transfer over elements from make believe. 

Yes, in an ideal world, kids should be able to tell the difference but they are not always able to do that. Or do not want to do that because the make believe is more fun - as in Charmed. 

And now we even get an RPG promoting just that. Even if it is clearly just a game, I'm sure plenty of girls will try out witchcraft in a RL setting. Without having any clue. Maybe they will also feel superior to boys (many of the wannabe-witches visiting the forums do). And that does make me feel queasy. 

As for the sexism, it is so very obvious. Only girls are the witches. The colours suggest that this is what a "real girl" should like. The characters could all be models looking at how slender they are.


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## Lwaxy (May 18, 2009)

roguerouge said:


> So, in short, you're against all things femme.




Erm, those things aren't "femme" they are annoying stereotypes. Most women do not look like that, not even girls. We are a population where more and more people are overweight, and to think that out of 5 girls all would have ideal weight is a bit too far fetched. And thinking back to my teen years, I was the only girl in my class liking those colours (weird seeing how I was otherwise a tomboy). And my son used to like them, but was very scared to admit it because his friends would think him "girly" for it.  




roguerouge said:


> And you've still not answered why it is that single gender activities are bad. You've still not answered why femme is bad. You've still not explained what text of the game makes it a mockery of a faith.
> 
> You've ignored the actual game every step of the way, exclusively commenting on the art work.
> 
> You've not presented an informed opinion, which is the only opinion that matters.




If the activity promotes sexism, it is bad. Teenage girls tend to think they are better than boys. Games like this one reinforce that idea, and I'm very uncomfortable with this. You can very well have single gender activities without making the game world gender imbalanced. 

The mockery comes from not having any male witches. The PCs are all female. It makes witchcraft look like a teenie-girl activity. Even if this could be seen as a good point for it being only a game, it will be taken wrong. There will be plenty of girls who will mix it up with RL stuff, especially because in the general population a witch is seen as female already. At least where I live. 

Anyway, I need to get going or I'll miss my appointment. Hopefully I'll find the thread again later.


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## Jhaelen (May 18, 2009)

shilsen said:


> Seconded. I've gamed (mostly D&D, with some M&M) with a lot of women but I'm very aware of the fact that they're playing the game despite the fact that its marketing and much of the gaming community is (admittedly sometimes unthinkingly) exclusionary to them. So anything which works against that is a bonus in my book.



Thirded. I think this is an excellent idea and I hope it's going to be successful for the publishers.

One of the female players in my group (who is also my DM in another group) wrote a thesis about roleplaying games and during her research also looked into all-girl groups and commented on the noticably different dynamics and focus.

She'll be interested to hear about this one!


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## ArghMark (May 18, 2009)

Sorry for the slightly off topic comment, but -

A TV series with an exorcist (possibly part of a conspiracy) going around dispelling demons and breaking up strange evil cults sounds..

COOL!

I could imagine a cross between say the old british show Ultraviolet and something like Millenium or X-files. A young priest, losing his faith, has it validated by demons; he not only has to deal with his own issues about that (Why doesn't God reveal himself?) but also slavering tentacle-cults from Hell itself.

- Christian here. 

- end off topic awesome idea


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> Thirded. I think this is an excellent idea and I hope it's going to be successful for the publishers.
> 
> One of the female players in my group (who is also my DM in another group) wrote a thesis about roleplaying games and during her research also looked into all-girl groups and commented on the noticably different dynamics and focus.
> 
> She'll be interested to hear about this one!




Thank you
Anything you can do to spread the word is appreciated!


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## Hexmage-EN (May 18, 2009)

I cannot believe that I'm reading claims about how RPGs will cause young girls to try witchcraft in real life on a RPG fansite. I guess this game will continue corrupting the souls of children for the glory of Satan where Harry Potter left off.


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## Charwoman Gene (May 18, 2009)

Hexmage-EN said:


> I cannot believe that I'm reading claims about how RPGs will cause young girls to try witchcraft in real life on a RPG fansite.




Where?  I only see this game being persecuted by pagans.  Unless you are seeing this on another site and forgetting to link to it, it's kinda deliberate baiting.


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## Keefe the Thief (May 18, 2009)

Lwaxy said:


> *snip*
> As for the sexism, it is so very obvious. Only girls are the witches. The colours suggest that this is what a "real girl" should like. The characters could all be models looking at how slender they are.




Dude, you´re unbelievable. The COLOURS suggest this is what a "real girl" should look like? Does that mean that slim adventurers in D&D books are out, especially if they´re painted in brown, because it means that "real men" look like that?

And you have my condolences for the mass of girls which will swarm your poor forums. It was as bad, i think, when Albedo the hard-sci-fi RPG came out in which all player races are anthropomorphic animals. The furry boards were FLOODED with girls thinking their ancestors are animals, i´m sure....

Nah, cant continue this. Just too weird.


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## Piratecat (May 18, 2009)

The next person who discusses real-life religion, including paganism, gets a free vacation. The same goes for sexism. This thread is about a game. Keep it that way.


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> The next person who discusses real-life religion, including paganism, gets a free vacation. The same goes for sexism. This thread is about a game. Keep it that way.




Anyone have any non-sexism or non religon questions?
I'll be happy to answer them


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## JustKim (May 18, 2009)

This game looks really cool. I wasn't sure about all the rules after looking over the character creation preview, but on a second read I'm starting to come around. I have a couple of questions though.

First is how rules heavy is the system compared to D&D? Do most of the rules lie in the character generation section or is there a big combat chapter with combat maneuvers and things? How much of the book is setting info and are there a lot of characters described? Are there any rules that encourage players to combine their efforts like we always see in magical girl shows?

Maybe this is an odd question, but what are the antagonists of the setting? The good and wicked witches are making me imagine something like Winx Club where two rival schools are competing and victories are tenuous. Is there an unrepentant evil or would it be up to me to make one?


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## Piratecat (May 18, 2009)

Sure. Is there an example of play anywhere? I'd be really interested to see it, as I've mentioned this thread to friends who have girls.


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## dm4hire (May 18, 2009)

Piratecat - There's a character creation PDF free on their main site under the download section.

Channelm - Are you taking preorders only right now with the order on the website or are you sending out advanced copies to those who buy direct?  I thought I saw that it doesn't release till next month is why I ask.


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## Crothian (May 18, 2009)

Channelm said:


> Anyone have any non-sexism or non religon questions?
> I'll be happy to answer them




I asked it a page ago, but you might have missed it: Are you guys going to be at Origins or Gen Con?


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

JustKim said:


> This game looks really cool. I wasn't sure about all the rules after looking over the character creation preview, but on a second read I'm starting to come around. I have a couple of questions though.
> 
> First is how rules heavy is the system compared to D&D? Do most of the rules lie in the character generation section or is there a big combat chapter with combat maneuvers and things? How much of the book is setting info and are there a lot of characters described? Are there any rules that encourage players to combine their efforts like we always see in magical girl shows?
> 
> Maybe this is an odd question, but what are the antagonists of the setting? The good and wicked witches are making me imagine something like Winx Club where two rival schools are competing and victories are tenuous. Is there an unrepentant evil or would it be up to me to make one?




All good questions. 
1. The Combat/action rolls  section including the section on broom flying is under 6 pages. with art.  We try to keep things simple.

2. Over half the book is setting and that includes world info, casting call (monsters and NPc's) and a chapter on one of the american magical schools)

3. A lot of the spells, skills and traits sometimes work better combined.

4. Well good witches and bad witches need not be enimies. think of it like DND where you can have both type in the same party.  But there are Antagonist organizations ranging from Witch Hunters (Mallas Maleficarum) goverment secret organizations (Project Storm wall). Evil witchies out to rule the world (The High Binders) and A cult trying to wake up the mother of monsters (Society of Echidna).

The game can get pretty dark if you want to go dark or light if you want to go light.


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> Sure. Is there an example of play anywhere? I'd be really interested to see it, as I've mentioned this thread to friends who have girls.




No, but hopefully that will change. I would love to post a short video of a game session online.


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

dm4hire said:


> Piratecat - There's a character creation PDF free on their main site under the download section.
> 
> Channelm - Are you taking preorders only right now with the order on the website or are you sending out advanced copies to those who buy direct? I thought I saw that it doesn't release till next month is why I ask.




The books on the site will be mailed as soon as we get books from the printers (End of this week or next week). Though I would love to sell you two books  to you I want to state upfront and honestly there isn't really a reason to buy the wicked and stadard. The rules are the same, the tone , art and beginning comic is just diffrent.

Also the  Wicked version can only be purchased directly from us. Also if you want signed copies email us and I'll make sure yours gets sighed.


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

Crothian said:


> I asked it a page ago, but you might have missed it: Are you guys going to be at Origins or Gen Con?




We're sticking to mostly Anime related cons this year . Our goal is to bring in new people to the hobby. At Game Cons you're really preaching to the converted.

Also Gen and Origins is crazy expensive for exhibitors.


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## JustKim (May 18, 2009)

How have the playtest groups responded to the rules? When you run at cons/meetings do the players use pregens, and how much of the rules do they need to know when they're not running the game?


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

JustKim said:


> How have the playtest groups responded to the rules? When you run at cons/meetings do the players use pregens, and how much of the rules do they need to know when they're not running the game?




Playtesting has been overwhemingly positive.  Most of the time its the players first time doing a table top RPG and the hardest part is explaing its not a video game, lol

At Playtests we have people make characters to show how quick it is.  Most of the time it takes less than 15 minutes for everyione leaving lots of game time.  We wanted the game to be something one could pull out at a slumber party get everyone characters made and eveyone playing in under 30 minutes under the worse conditions.

When not running the games  you just need to know how to plasy your chracter and make their rolls. And since spells are free form you need to have sme good ideas for spells (Or at least know some opf the sample spells from the book your character can cast)

Sopeaking of for people who have gamed in the past our spell system is the hardest thing for them to grasp as there are no "set spells".  The book has samples and guidelines.  People new to RPG's tend to like the idea of making up spells as you go and you get some really cool ones that are both fun and frightening.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (May 18, 2009)

Channelm said:


> That being said.
> 
> CHARMED SUCKED!




Heh. I was just thinking about buying your game and running a Charmed scenario at the next Chicago Game Day. It would fit well with the ongoing Supernatural events that I have played.


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## Channelm (May 18, 2009)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> Heh. I was just thinking about buying your game and running a Charmed scenario at the next Chicago Game Day. It would fit well with the ongoing Supernatural events that I have played.




Hey Please do. LOL My opinion on Charmed is just my opinion.

Speaking of adapting Witch Girls. We've run a lot of Harry Potter Games with the rules for Comic Store Harry Potter events.


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## dm4hire (May 18, 2009)

Channelm said:


> The books on the site will be mailed as soon as we get books from the printers (End of this week or next week). Though I would love to sell you two books  to you I want to state upfront and honestly there isn't really a reason to buy the wicked and standard. The rules are the same, the tone , art and beginning comic is just different.
> 
> Also the  Wicked version can only be purchased directly from us. Also if you want signed copies email us and I'll make sure yours gets sighed.




Sounds good to me.  I'll probably order end of week when I get paid.  I'm going to get both; standard for my niece and then get the wicked to add to my collection.

If you do make a boy's version I'd love to pick it up as my nephew would probably get into it. Right now he's at the age where anything aimed for girls just isn't cool in his book; no matter what it might be like.


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## Channelm (May 19, 2009)

dm4hire said:


> Sounds good to me. I'll probably order end of week when I get paid. I'm going to get both; standard for my niece and then get the wicked to add to my collection.
> 
> If you do make a boy's version I'd love to pick it up as my nephew would probably get into it. Right now he's at the age where anything aimed for girls just isn't cool in his book; no matter what it might be like.




It'll be about a year but  the "Otherkin" book is coming.


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## Dice4Hire (May 19, 2009)

Loonook said:


> Why do we need a game specifically marketing to girls?  Math is too hard?
> 
> This just seems a very... self-serving sort of game.  I have no issue with a setting or developing something for a market... but it just seems kind of condescending to say that a game should be made specifically for girls.
> 
> ...




Why not target girls, or women, or females? It is smart marketing and makes good business sense to target undervalued parts of the market. If this game sells well and gows that market, it cannot help but be a benefit for gaming as a whole. 

Is Candlyand self-serving? It is aimed at very young children, who then move up to otehr games like monopoply (with a few steps in between) Makes sense to develop your market.


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## Don Ventresca (May 19, 2009)

I don't think that RPG's are based to boys very much, in my groups, there is a typical 2:3 ratio of boys to girls... (or 1:1) But those are just my groups.


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## pawsplay (May 19, 2009)

I had the opportunity to participate in one of Malcolm's playtests. Magical girls aren't normally my thing, but I nonetheless enjoyed myself. Really, there aren't a lot of opportunities in the gaming world to express your inner Kiki, so as a change of pace, it's hard to beat. It reminded me a little of Teenagers From Outer Space as far as the traits.


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## Wepwawet (May 19, 2009)

Channelm said:


> ... the section on broom flying is under 6 pages....



this made me laugh! 



Channelm said:


> 4. (...) and A cult trying to wake up the mother of monsters (Society of Echidna).



 Awwwhhh That's cute 
The mother of monsters is a giant echidna? A bit spiky, but cute.

The free-form spell idea is great. I once was kinda introducing D&D to a girl, she wanted to play a wizard and right away started saying what kind of spells she wanted. It was a big turn off when she saw there was a fixed list of spells.

A couple years ago I used to see the Witch magazine on the kiosk of a café i used to go to and i always felt curious about it. It used to come with "magic" bracelets and pendants and all that. Of course as a grown man I never bought it to check it out 

BTW, I'm talking about W.I.T.C.H., apparently (just checked wikipedia)

Is it related to your RPG?


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## Raven Crowking (May 19, 2009)

Channelm said:


> We've had a lot of all girl groups in playtesting/demos. We've had mom's and daughters play, sisters and we've had a few guys play (Mostly at cons).




First off, best of luck with your project!

Second, have you considered getting in touch with the people at Scholastic?  My 10-year-old daughter is now into rpgs, and this looks like something she would like.  Scholastic sends out flyers to the homes of all the students in the school (where the school does a book fair to raise money).

You would get a smaller percentage off doing so, in all likelihood, but you would also get a lot of free advertising for, say, core product, while selling the suppliments normally (off your website or in gaming/book stores). 

Just a thought.


RC


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## Channelm (May 19, 2009)

Wepwawet said:


> this made me laugh!
> 
> 
> Awwwhhh That's cute
> ...




W.I.T.C.H. is not related to our RPG or company at all.
Our Witch Girls is based on a product a few years older.

-Free form magic was the only way to go with this. There ar rules to the free form but within those rules anything is possible. And it forces you to think and use your imagination.

If your fighting a troll in a mall do you
1. try to turn said troll into a flea? (Alteration)
2. animate the bears at the build a bear workshop to be your army of doom? (Alteration)
3. Call fowward a character from a game in the arcade to aid you. (Cybermancy)
4. Make the plants in the neear by plotter grow and capture him (Elementalism)
5. Or conjuer a cage around him. (Conjuration)

Echidna would be insulted by you calling her a giant cute spikey critter. But she's been asleep for 50 thousand years waiting fior her minions to wake her up.

You know we do have bracelets and charms...but we haven't figured out what to do with them....I think that just changed


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## Channelm (May 19, 2009)

Raven Crowking said:


> First off, best of luck with your project!
> 
> Second, have you considered getting in touch with the people at Scholastic? My 10-year-old daughter is now into rpgs, and this looks like something she would like. Scholastic sends out flyers to the homes of all the students in the school (where the school does a book fair to raise money).
> 
> ...




Considering scholastic almost optioned the movie rights a while back, why not. I'll give my contact a call.


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## Wepwawet (May 19, 2009)

I read the whole Star creation guide, and I loved it!
The possibilities are very interesting, it's very simple, and it's really easy to change it to a Harry Potter style of game.
It looks more narrative oriented, but you can have all sorts of (teen) adventures with it.
Anyway, I don't see why it should be a girls-only game, apart from the illustrations featuring only girls.

I have to ask you, why "Clique"? What does it mean? It's read as <click> right?

Now I want to try this game with my niece and her friends. But I should wait for her to learn how to read ... and understand english... probably...



Channelm said:


> You know we do have bracelets and charms...but we haven't figured out what to do with them....I think that just changed



I can see props like magic rings being sold to be used in the game.
I'm sure if would be very immersive for kids


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## Channelm (May 19, 2009)

Wepwawet said:


> I read the whole Star creation guide, and I loved it!
> The possibilities are very interesting, it's very simple, and it's really easy to change it to a Harry Potter style of game.
> It looks more narrative oriented, but you can have all sorts of (teen) adventures with it.
> Anyway, I don't see why it should be a girls-only game, apart from the illustrations featuring only girls.
> ...




-The Star Creation guide is only a small part of the "Potential"
- We've run Harry Potter event games with the rules. A Lot of local cons hold events for the movies and we go there run games to promote witch girls. http://channelmlive.com/HP/Harry Potter.pdf
that's what harry looks like in _our totally fan based, not for proffit varient_
_rules just for fun rules._

-Clique is another name for a social-group.


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## Corinth (May 20, 2009)

I think that this is a good idea.  I wish you great success in reaching a segment that has not been properly served to date.


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## Channelm (May 20, 2009)

Corinth said:


> I think that this is a good idea. I wish you great success in reaching a segment that has not been properly served to date.




thank you


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## SKyOdin (May 20, 2009)

Wepwawet said:


> I have to ask you, why "Clique"? What does it mean? It's read as <click> right?




"Clique" is a word used in American English to refer to a tight-knit group of friends. I remember it being used in Elementary school to refer to groups of kids, often girls, who hung out with each other all the time. Can refer to groups that are insular or otherwise don't like admitting new members. It is a pretty commonly used term.

Someone with a good dictionary can probably come up with a better definition.

EDIT: On topic, I wish you the best of luck with this product.


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## pawsplay (May 20, 2009)

A clique is a broad social group defined more by identification with certain traits than by personal connections, which is exclusive in some fashion.


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## Channelm (May 20, 2009)

SKyOdin said:


> "Clique" is a word used in American English to refer to a tight-knit group of friends. I remember it being used in Elementary school to refer to groups of kids, often girls, who hung out with each other all the time. Can refer to groups that are insular or otherwise don't like admitting new members. It is a pretty commonly used term.
> 
> Someone with a good dictionary can probably come up with a better definition.
> 
> EDIT: On topic, I wish you the best of luck with this product.



 Thank you


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## IronWhim (Jun 25, 2009)

Channelm said:


> To all the above I say Gaming is for everyone! And I'm showing my love for gaming by wanting to bring in new life by bringing in new players.




I couldn't agree more.  I'm sick of the gaming elitists who think that there is only one way to game.  I love that Witch Girl Adventures isn't all about combat while simultaneously not being all about being angsty, either.  (I've got my local game/comic store trying to find a copy, because this looks like a game I need to own).

In a world filled with fantasy beat-em-ups, WGA looks to be a refreshing change of pace.  When my copy arrives, I'll be running it for my daughter and her friends, as well as seeing how well a setting I've been running for the better part of a decade works with its rules (your rules are actually very similar to something I've been working on for a couple of years.  Feel like discussing licensing?).

All of that said, I think this game will go down in my favorites list, along with Spirit of the Century, Paranoia, Teenagers from Outer Space, and the like.  It's so nice to be able to take a break from grim and gritty and remember that games are there to have fun with.


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## Tuft (Jun 25, 2009)

IronWhim said:


> I couldn't agree more.  I'm sick of the gaming elitists who think that there is only one way to game.  I love that Witch Girl Adventures isn't all about combat while simultaneously not being all about being angsty, either.  (I've got my local game/comic store trying to find a copy, because this looks like a game I need to own).
> 
> In a world filled with fantasy beat-em-ups, WGA looks to be a refreshing change of pace.  When my copy arrives, I'll be running it for my daughter and her friends, as well as seeing how well a setting I've been running for the better part of a decade works with its rules (your rules are actually very similar to something I've been working on for a couple of years.  Feel like discussing licensing?).
> 
> All of that said, I think this game will go down in my favorites list, along with Spirit of the Century, Paranoia, Teenagers from Outer Space, and the like.  It's so nice to be able to take a break from grim and gritty and remember that games are there to have fun with.




How many "Quoted for Truth" may you add to an article?


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## IronWhim (Jun 25, 2009)

ArghMark said:


> Sorry for the slightly off topic comment, but -
> 
> A TV series with an exorcist (possibly part of a conspiracy) going around dispelling demons and breaking up strange evil cults sounds..
> 
> ...




As an off topic response to this from a non-Christian, practicing Taoist, I have to agree with you 100%!  That sounds like a great show!  I'd watch it in a heartbeat, if it were done well.


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## IronWhim (Jun 25, 2009)

Tuft said:


> How many "Quoted for Truth" may you add to an article?



Hehehe.  Thanks!

WGA seems to fall (from the stuff I've read about it and DL'd off the site) to be that category of gaming that I love best:  The Romp.  It's about having fun.  That's why I game.  I don't want soul crushing darkness and despair to go with my shiny new fangs.  I want a good time.  I also don't want a tactical miniatures game (sorry D&D).

My work weeks are typically 60+ hours (the high price of being an underpaid, overworked, underappreciated artist/animator for a living), and I don't want MORE stress from my game.  That seems...  counterproductive.

I've got a 13 year-old daughter and her friends who can't wait to play this.  My daughter would describe herself as a punk rock girlie-girl if you pushed her to do so.  She listens to boy bands, but also to Rancid, Disturbed, and all that great "old people" music her mom and I introduced her to.

But now, because Channel M put out a cool game (which she is totally aware is a complete fantasy), I finally get to share one of my favorite hobbies with her.  I can't even begin to say how exciting that is.  So, while some folks may gripe about it, I'll just have to buy multiple copies of the rules that are bringing my family closer together.


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## Channelm (Jun 25, 2009)

Thanks . We aim to please


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## Defender_X (Jun 25, 2009)

I do see possibilities, when I got started D&D( both O and A) was the gateway RPG(s) in my opinion. One of the better tactical players in a battletech group I played in was a woman. It helped that she had the divine's own luck with the dice too.


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## ST (Jun 25, 2009)

Channel M, this sounds like some inspired marketing, and I wish you the best of luck with it. 

Anyone who can reach the colossal "forum roleplaying" crowd that's grown out of fanfic has the potential to reach a market far larger than that of tabletop RPGs. Keep us posted!


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## Ace (Jun 26, 2009)

Good thread here. 

I am looking forward to getting a  copy of this game. While W.I.T.C.H. meets Harry Potter is not my usual cup of chowder, (and yes I do know they aren't related but from what I've read its the buzz I get)  Tim "Web Warlock" Brannan and I share near exact tastes in gaming (systems, settings, everything -- its creepy ) and his review on RPG.net  was very positive.

I think the core idea, a game for younger girl gamers is a very good one, its an under served audience and those gals are BIG consumers of modern fantasy. The fact that it is set "now-ish" makes it a lot more accessible to players who may be more reared on Llywellyn catalogs and the like rather than the "60's wargame/geekery" of older more traditional RPG's 

One thing I   think you would be amiss if you don't do a Wizard Academy game-- Harry Potter is huge huge huge and that audience is waiting to become gamers 

As for myself if I am get to play this game with some of my adult gamer gal pals  I suspect I will play a "boy witch" not to "steal the girl power" but because its fun. Having been the only guy in an all girl gaming group and the only guy employee in a department I can relate to the fish out of water aspect. With the right group that could be some grade A rpg-ing 

As was said before best of luck with this game


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## IronWhim (Jun 26, 2009)

Defender_X said:


> I do see possibilities, when I got started D&D( both O and A) was the gateway RPG(s) in my opinion. One of the better tactical players in a battletech group I played in was a woman. It helped that she had the divine's own luck with the dice too.



Perhaps she was a witch?


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## IronWhim (Jun 26, 2009)

Alas, my comic book/gaming store didn't have this game, so I ended up going the PDF route.  On the plus side, I've now read the whole thing cover to cover and can give a more informed opinion.

First of all, given some of the discussion here, I have to say that I see absolutely nothing wrong with making this a girls' game.  It's got my daughter sixteen kinds of excited that she's finally got a game to play with her dad.  Of course, rules for adding boys to the mix are stated quite simply on page 5 of the text, as well as the options required to make it more like Harry Potter.  Boom!  Problem (for some) solved.  Now, let's get to the game.

I've a veteran gamer.  I started with the three books and went from there to just about every game I could get my hands on.  I've played vastly complicated rules sets and very simple, from HarnMaster to Over the Edge, and everything in between.

These rules rock.  I have no objection to the dice used, because they're really not hard to grasp.  My daughter just calls them Dad Dice and her friend, who has never roleplayed before, grasped them instantly.  Is reading a number really so hard?  I didn't think so, either.

The game also states three times on the first real page of text that this is a work of pure fiction and fun, not a representation of any real world belief system, which I find refreshing.  And if some girl goes into a pagan shop looking to duplicate stuff from the game, they can be gently directed into real paganism instead, so the numbers grow.  Again, woot for the pagans!

So in reading more deeply, the system is very cool.  Easy to grasp, quick to play, and simple to resolve.  I can only think that the people who are poo pooing it haven't actually read it.  There really isn't anything difficult at all going on here.  It's not as simple as Over the Edge (but what is?), but it's certainly far simpler than any of the big name games (D&D, WoD, or GURPS), which makes it a great entry into gaming.

There are lots of juicy options, too, esepecially for a simple system.  The Heritages are particularly fun to me, and they and the Talents really help characters end up different from a purely numerical standpoint, especially important in a game where the characters could potentially all be very similar.

Finally, the magic system rocks.  I was a tester on just about every one of the 5th edition Ars Magica books, and I like a beefy magic system.  WGA's magic system is reminiscent of it in a big way, though much more streamlined at the same time.  As such, it gives a huge number of magical options while also being easy to work with, especially if the Director is a long-time gamer.

But the game system is simple, and the setting has a charm to it that Charmed could never have come close to.  It's reminiscent of Harry Potter, to be sure, but it's also got a uniquely American feel to it (my daughter has been pouring over the shopping section and drooling fiercely).

Finally, while this game is aimed primarily at girls of roughly the same age as the Stars, I know of a lot of older gamers of both genders who are curious, if not outright interested, in the game.  After all, isn't one of the points of roleplaying to be something you aren't?

All of that said, I'm also looking forward to seeing how my own setting (a similar idea in the basic sense, but vastly different in a lot of the particulars) will plug into the system.  It looks to be the best fit I've found to date (impressive, given that I've been running my setting for almost a decade and been working on details of it for almost twice that long).  A few minor modifications and it should be a go.

So overall, I will have to rate it Darth Vader style, and simply say, "Impressive...  Most impressive."


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## Channelm (Jun 26, 2009)

We're having a hard time getting distribution so we want everyone to ask their stores to carry it and to contact Alliances (the big game distributor) about carrying it)

And thanks for the review.
If it helps you and your kids get closer and have fun my job is done.


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## Defender_X (Jun 26, 2009)

IronWhim said:


> Perhaps she was a witch?



 To paraphrase the Wizard of OZ, she was a good witch, but death incarnate in a Warhammer, headshot to a Victor with a crippled 'hammer. One of the few original characters to survive that campaign.


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## tyciol (May 15, 2012)

*Book of Shadows*

I am wondering if anyone is playing the second edition of this game nowadays? They apparently did a fundraiser and succeeded in getting it out. Book of Shadows apparently expands the rules and gives more character classes I heard.


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## Crothian (May 15, 2012)

It's a book I'd pick up if I ever say it anywhere.


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## Nifft (May 15, 2012)

Ah, thread nostalgia... I clicked on the link to see what the heck I was talking about back in post #2, but their website seems to be down.

Oh well, -- N


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## Primitive Screwhead (May 16, 2012)

Google says to try here 

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Jan van Leyden (May 16, 2012)

A long, long time ago, last year if I recall correctly, there was a discussion started by a prospective customer, saying that he had paid for WGA but never received anything from the publisher, neither the product bought nor the money back. The discussion ended with the customer announcing that he had contacted the BBB. I haven't noticed an update on this for half a year at least, so I wouldn't really expect WGA to be still alive.


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