# Update: The Union was Recognized! Noble Knight Games employees Unionize.



## darjr (Nov 1, 2022)

Saw this via the Designers & Dragons fb page.

From ICv2



	
		Employees at a large brick-and-mortar and online hobby games retailer have formed a union affiliated with the Communications Workers of America
		
	



The Cap Times gives us an employee count.



	
		The union would cover upwards of 90% of the company’s roughly 75 employees, an unnamed representative of the bargaining committee said in an email.
		
	










						Union Formed at Game Retailer
					

With Communications Workers of America




					icv2.com
				




From @billd91








						Workers at Fitchburg game company Noble Knight announce union
					

To mobilize support for their union efforts, Noble Knight workers are using the slogan “We Roll Together,” a pun on dice games and solidarity.




					captimes.com


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## phuong (Nov 1, 2022)

Plot twist, there are only 3 employees, and one is the owner.


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## darjr (Nov 1, 2022)

phuong said:


> Plot twist, there are only 3 employees, and one is the owner.



I think there are 13 full time employees not counting managers? But I think that’s just their main retail store. I’m not sure if there are more or how many but I think there are more.

Small company for sure but they have an outsized influence.


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## Mad_Jack (Nov 1, 2022)

darjr said:


> I think there are 13 full time employees not counting managers? But I think that’s just their main retail store. I’m not sure if there are more or how many but I think there are more.
> 
> Small company for sure but they have an outsized influence.




 Not sure how many retail/warehouse employees they have in their one physical location, but I'm pretty sure their online sales dept. and management is maybe five or six people total. Last time I emailed them awhile back it took them about four days to get back to me because their entire office staff had gotten hit with Covid.


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## darjr (Nov 1, 2022)

Mad_Jack said:


> Not sure how many retail/warehouse employees they have in their one physical location, but I'm pretty sure their online sales dept. and management is maybe five or six people total. Last time I emailed them awhile back it took them about four days to get back to me because their entire office staff had gotten hit with Covid.



Oof!

Thanks for that.

I know it’s a small company but again their influence in the hobby and industry outweighs their size.


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## Riley (Nov 1, 2022)

The good people of Noble Knight have always done well by me. Cheers!


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## Mad_Jack (Nov 1, 2022)

I'm not sure how busy their physical store gets, but they could probably run it with about five or six employees including a manager. And even though their online business is the much greater part of their operation, it's all games and smaller items, so you'd only really need maybe two or three people handling online sales/generating paperwork, one warehouse manager, maybe an inventory guy, three or four order pickers, and a couple of shipping guys.
I've worked in warehouse and shipping most of my life, and for small-item stuff like that, a small crew can move a lot of product out the door surprisingly quickly.


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## billd91 (Nov 1, 2022)

Mad_Jack said:


> I'm not sure how busy their physical store gets, but they could probably run it with about five or six employees including a manager. And even though their online business is the much greater part of their operation, it's all games and smaller items, so you'd only really need maybe two or three people handling online sales/generating paperwork, one warehouse manager, maybe an inventory guy, three or four order pickers, and a couple of shipping guys.
> I've worked in warehouse and shipping most of my life, and for small-item stuff like that, a small crew can move a lot of product out the door surprisingly quickly.



There's a lot more people working there than that. They've got 7 different job descriptions and have been growing steadily since 2016 when someone I know started working there.
Edit: One of our local newspapers reports about 75 employees.


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## billd91 (Nov 1, 2022)

Workers at Fitchburg game company Noble Knight announce union
					

To mobilize support for their union efforts, Noble Knight workers are using the slogan “We Roll Together,” a pun on dice games and solidarity.




					captimes.com
				




If successful, I'll amble over and buy something relatively extravagant to celebrate their union.
And maybe I will finally be able to get my daughter to put in an application to work there...


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## darjr (Nov 1, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Workers at Fitchburg game company Noble Knight announce union
> 
> 
> To mobilize support for their union efforts, Noble Knight workers are using the slogan “We Roll Together,” a pun on dice games and solidarity.
> ...



Thank you for that!


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 1, 2022)

Riley said:


> The good people of Noble Knight have always done well by me. Cheers!



Same here. I've gotten exceptional service from them over the years, even when I was being an idiot. 

The employees deserve good, fair treatment and the means to secure it if they don't have it.


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## Mad_Jack (Nov 2, 2022)

billd91 said:


> There's a lot more people working there than that. They've got 7 different job descriptions and have been growing steadily since 2016 when someone I know started working there.
> Edit: One of our local newspapers reports about 75 employees.




 Ahh... They're obviously doing a lot more business than I thought. Do they run multiple shifts in their warehouse?


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## RivetGeekWil (Nov 2, 2022)

They have 21 employees on LinkedIn and that isn't going be all of them. Glassdoor lists them as under 50 employees. There's no minimum to unionize but 30% have to perform for the union for the NLRB to conduct an election.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 2, 2022)

If the employees at a small business like that feel the need to have a Union, then things must be pretty crappy behind the scenes, no matter how nice it may seem to the customer.


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## darjr (Nov 2, 2022)

Noble Knight Games Refuses Voluntary Recognition
					

Retailer Heads for Union Election




					icv2.com


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## Deset Gled (Nov 2, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> If the employees at a small business like that feel the need to have a Union, then things must be pretty crappy behind the scenes, no matter how nice it may seem to the customer.




I was going to make a comment that this wasn't necessarily the case.  There are a number of reasons why the workers may want to unionize.  Bad working conditions is a big one, but not the only one.

But then this...



darjr said:


> Noble Knight Games Refuses Voluntary Recognition
> 
> 
> Retailer Heads for Union Election
> ...




If the company is refusing to recognize the union, well, that's not a good sign.


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## darjr (Nov 2, 2022)

I expected better of NK.


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## John R Davis (Nov 2, 2022)

Games Workshop in the UK definitely need to unionise. They have very Draconian terms and conditions.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Nov 2, 2022)

I've always had great experiences buying from Noble Knight. To hear this is discouraging.



Deset Gled said:


> I was going to make a comment that this wasn't necessarily the case.  There are a number of reasons why the workers may want to unionize.  Bad working conditions is a big one, but not the only one.
> 
> But then this...
> 
> ...


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## GreyLord (Nov 4, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> I was going to make a comment that this wasn't necessarily the case.  There are a number of reasons why the workers may want to unionize.  Bad working conditions is a big one, but not the only one.
> 
> But then this...
> 
> ...




Not necessarily.

Grocery store workers in the majority of the US are not unionized (they are in California I believe), but that doesn't necessarily reflect bad working conditions (at least in relation to the US).  [Yes, I realize NK is NOT a grocer, this is an example of retail work in the US]

IT CAN reflect what their target employees are in some cases (younger individuals or those looking for additional income in some places, others have varying pay depending on the position with some positions specfically focused for some of those types of employees with the expectations those positions will not really buy the healthcare or other items).

Some of it may be part time work where the default is expected that one can schedule times to not work if they wish and don't have to go in as much so the company feels they don't need the days off like a full-time worker.

With that said, most grocery stores probably would also flat out refuse to recognize a union in the United States, especially if they feel that union is trying to demand things that are not useful to the business (for example, trying to force the above part time workers to be given 2 weeks vacation fully paid, getting a healthcare plan that is affordable for those part time workers to afford on part time pay, and paying filler positions high wages).

A forced union will force the business to recognize and deal with those issues.  In some instances that can be beneficial (happy workers make a company a better place to work and can help the business actually do better), but there are some where it may be bad for many workers (company cannot afford to pay the demands thus will simply cut those jobs that will require them to give these benefits but are not worth paying those benefits.  It may seem to make some happy on that, but for part timers [which a majority may be at Noble Knight...it indicates in the thread that they have around 15 full timers, which would mean they have around 60 part-timers] that could mean that they no longer have to worry because they have no job period).

This is not particularly specific to Grocery Stores, but can be applied to many various retail outlets in the US.  Obviously, the US is different than other nations in this area.  In some nations in Europe there are very LOW union participation rates (such as France) but this is countered by Strong Government regulations (which are lacking in the US) which afford most workers rights which the US lacks.  Just like the above, in some instances this is a good thing, in others it is bad.

 It should be noted though that the US GDP dwarfs most European nations.  California may have better laws in regards to unionization and employment regulation, but it pales in comparison to most nations in Europe (which in turn are regulated in part by EU statutes).  California, a mere state, has an economy that is on the verge of bypassing one of Europe's strongest economies (Germany).  The states in the US have many which surpass the national GDP of other nations.

I generally support Unions, but there are times when I wonder if it is the best choice (and perhaps it is in the US with the lack of employee protections, lack of free education past basic levels, and lack of universal healthcare which puts the onus of healthcare payment options on job opportunity instead of equal application to everyone), especially in relation to jobs that were created specifically as side work rather than full time work.


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## Blue Orange (Nov 4, 2022)

Are they going to change their name to Noble Peasants? Noble Veche?

(suggestions from people with deeper knowledge of the Middle Ages welcome)


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## billd91 (Nov 4, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Grocery store workers in the majority of the US are not unionized (they are in California I believe), but that doesn't necessarily reflect bad working conditions (at least in relation to the US).  [Yes, I realize NK is NOT a grocer, this is an example of retail work in the US]
> 
> ...



You might be surprised. There are, apparently, something like 2.8 million grocery workers in the US. The UFCW represents about 800,000 of them. So there are quite a few grocery stores who have been recognizing unions. And while there may be quite a few workers in those positions (and other retail positions) part time, don't underestimate the number of people who work there full time. There should be no assumption that it's a side job. The time the employee spends there should be fairly compensated, full time or part, with appropriate benefits.

If unions have a black eye or low numbers in the US, it's mainly because of efforts to bust them and massive campaigns to undermine their value and the robustness of the economy is paying for it and will pay heavily for it in coming decades.


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## Aeson (Nov 4, 2022)

Does this mean they've thrown off the shackles of the ruling class and seized the means of production?


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## Erik Alt (Nov 4, 2022)

So, Noble Knight is going belly up within a year. Sad to hear it, actually bought stuff from them.


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## darjr (Nov 4, 2022)

Erik Alt said:


> So, Noble Knight is going belly up within a year. Sad to hear it, actually bought stuff from them.



Wait? What?


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## billd91 (Nov 4, 2022)




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## Erik Alt (Nov 4, 2022)

Having your workforce get difficult in a business with razor-thin margins means you go bankrupt.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Nov 5, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Does this mean they've thrown off the shackles of the ruling class and seized the means of production?



Let's hope they do.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 5, 2022)

Erik Alt said:


> Having your workforce get difficult in a business with razor-thin margins means you go bankrupt.



Grocery stores typically have profit margins of 1-3%.  Organic & natural food groceries hit about 4-6% profit margins.








						The Guide to Grocery Store Profit Margins (and How To Improve Them)
					

Looking for a guide to grocery store profit margins? Look no further! We’ll show you what a good profit margin is, and how to improve yours.



					www.posnation.com
				




In comparison, game retailers have profit margins between 5-8% on average.
A Behind the Scenes Look at the Profit Margin of Your Local Game Store | Dice Tower News


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## GreyLord (Nov 5, 2022)

billd91 said:


> You might be surprised. There are, apparently, something like 2.8 million grocery workers in the US. The UFCW represents about 800,000 of them. So there are quite a few grocery stores who have been recognizing unions. And while there may be quite a few workers in those positions (and other retail positions) part time, don't underestimate the number of people who work there full time. There should be no assumption that it's a side job. The time the employee spends there should be fairly compensated, full time or part, with appropriate benefits.
> 
> If unions have a black eye or low numbers in the US, it's mainly because of efforts to bust them and massive campaigns to undermine their value and the robustness of the economy is paying for it and will pay heavily for it in coming decades.




If I understand it right...

That's actually between the US and Canada.  Canada has easier access to Unions and have 436,000 grocery workers in Canada.

Add in another 383,000 (almost 384,000 in California) and it's not hard to get to 800,000 between the two.

Most of the Grocery worker Unions are not found in most of the other states, though many of the UCFW union workers are NOT grocery workers (800K is the grocers, but you also have meat packers, and others.  One example of a strike of other UCFW members would be Colorado for example which dealt with a marijuana, others with factories, warehouses and plants in Kentucky and elsewhere) and ARE found in many locations.  They (the grocer arm) have limited representation in some more liberal areas of the US such as the North East.

Efforts to enforce or attain unionizations in many other areas of the US from grocers have failed.  Some of it with dirty underhanded tactics where the Unions in theory would win, but due to filing bankruptcy and dissolution to reform anew killed the planned strikes.

Most of the attempts outside of California have met with similar oppositions among grocery stores to make it so the unions are either not recognized or minimized in their power and ability.  At least from what I've seen in the US (which admittedly may not be the full picture).


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 5, 2022)

When talking about the US and Unions, you also have to remember there is not a blanket federal law, like in other countries. Each state has it's own laws for Unions. So while a company like Kroger, and subsidiaries, are nationwide, and the Union is represented in all locations, support and enforcement vary by state.


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## MGibster (Nov 9, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> If the company is refusing to recognize the union, well, that's not a good sign.



This is fairly typical when the union didn't go through the National Labor Relations Board.  Noble Knights can certainly recognize the union at this point, but most company's will require them to go through the NLRBs voting process before they'll recognize it.



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> When talking about the US and Unions, you also have to remember there is not a blanket federal law, like in other countries. Each state has it's own laws for Unions. So while a company like Kroger, and subsidiaries, are nationwide, and the Union is represented in all locations, support and enforcement vary by state.



That's partially true. While states may have their own employment laws regarding unions, the federal government also has laws that each state must obey.  The National Labor Relations Act of 1935 and the Labor-Management Reporting Disclosure Act of 1959 are two such laws.


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## Malmuria (Nov 9, 2022)

Erik Alt said:


> get difficult



always those pesky workers asking for "fair pay" and "good working conditions" that ruin businesses smh


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## Deset Gled (Nov 9, 2022)

MGibster said:


> This is fairly typical when the union didn't go through the National Labor Relations Board.  Noble Knights can certainly recognize the union at this point, but most company's will require them to go through the NLRBs voting process before they'll recognize it.




That's possible. Maybe it will just take a little more time. But the ICv2 article makes it sound like they have filed properly with the NLRB. And the association with the CWA lends further credence that their paperwork is in order. I am not an expert on how the legalities work, but even if you're right it still sounds like NKG is using a delay tactic rather than addressing worker's concerns.


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## CleverNickName (Nov 9, 2022)

Don't feed the trolls, ya'll.
Let 'em starve in silence.


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## MGibster (Nov 9, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> That's possible. Maybe it will just take a little more time. But the ICv2 article makes it sound like they have filed properly with the NLRB. And the association with the CWA lends further credence that their paperwork is in order. I am not an expert on how the legalities work, but even if your right it still sounds like NKG is using a delay tactic rather than addressing worker's concerns.



  It's likely that management wants the formal vote to fail and they might even take this opportunity to try to convince workers not to join the union.  Some unethical managers take this time to fire union organizers for contrived reasons, I'm not arguing that's what Noble Knight's will do, but it's one of the reasons many people aren't happy about their decision not to recognize the union at this stage.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 9, 2022)

MGibster said:


> That's partially true. While states may have their own employment laws regarding unions, the federal government also has laws that each state must obey.  The National Labor Relations Act of 1935 and the Labor-Management Reporting Disclosure Act of 1959 are two such laws.




I live in a state that is "Right to Work" and has "At Will" labor laws, so no notice or reason needed to fire someone, as long as those few federal laws are not violated, and can't be forced to join a Union to practice certain professions or trades. So employees in jobs that do have Union representation can either join it or tell them to F off and not have it affect their job.


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## Staffan (Nov 9, 2022)

Erik Alt said:


> Having your workforce get difficult in a business with razor-thin margins means you go bankrupt.



If your business can't handle paying decent wages and decent benefits and having decent working conditions, you should not be running a business.


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## MGibster (Nov 9, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I live in a state that is "Right to Work" and has "At Will" labor laws, so no notice or reason needed to fire someone, as long as those few federal laws are not violated, and can't be forced to join a Union to practice certain professions or trades. So employees in jobs that do have Union representation can either join it or tell them to F off and not have it affect their job.



There are 28 right-to-work states and and most states have at-will employment.  In a right-to-work state, employees cannot be compelled to join or pay dues to a union, but they still receive the benefits of any collective bargaining.  i.e.  Whatever employment deal the union negotiates for applies to non-union members as well.  So the union bargaining does affect their jobs.


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## darjr (Nov 10, 2022)

Angering


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 10, 2022)

Ah, they are in Wisconsin, and the way the election went yesterday for the state, I can see the anti-union vibes from all this.


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## Malmuria (Nov 10, 2022)

Everyone is a happy friendly independent store until the actual workers start advocating for themselves...


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## Lazvon (Nov 10, 2022)

Sooooo… I need more data to figure how supportive I am of the unionization…

Is there evidence of extreme profit margins? Does the owner(s) drive new $120k+ cars, changing pretty often? Massive $2m+ house? Have crazy mahogany office setup?


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## billd91 (Nov 10, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> Sooooo… I need more data to figure how supportive I am of the unionization…
> 
> Is there evidence of extreme profit margins? Does the owner(s) drive new $120k+ cars, changing pretty often? Massive $2m+ house? Have crazy mahogany office setup?



None of which are necessary for workers to form a union if they feel they need one.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 10, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> Sooooo… I need more data to figure how supportive I am of the unionization…
> 
> Is there evidence of extreme profit margins? Does the owner(s) drive new $120k+ cars, changing pretty often? Massive $2m+ house? Have crazy mahogany office setup?




But don't the more corrupt union leaders also have those too?


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## Blue Orange (Nov 10, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> Sooooo… I need more data to figure how supportive I am of the unionization…
> 
> Is there evidence of extreme profit margins? Does the owner(s) drive new $120k+ cars, changing pretty often? Massive $2m+ house? Have crazy mahogany office setup?



Profit margins is probably the key question (though it's up to the workers and not either of us, of course). I can definitely see wanting Bezos to cough up a few of Amazon's billions, but it's possible Noble Knight might just go under.

You can try to support worker-owned cooperatives (Mondragon in Spain comes to mind), but I don't know if that exists in the gaming industry, which after all has a nonessential product and usually thin margins.


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## Lazvon (Nov 10, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> the gaming industry, which after all has a nonessential product and usually thin margins.




Exactly my thoughts. I can’t work in my hobby and live the lifestyle I desire - so I don’t.

I am thankful folks sacrifice for this hobby - but I have to assume  a large chunk of working in this hobby industry do so for the satisfaction that comes with it. Much the same as many “starving artists”…

Again, I might be very supportive of NKG becoming unionized if there is clearly a profit margin there to support higher wages, working conditions, and better benefits. If there isn’t, then my view is - hey, at least you get paid (however little) to work in an industry that I hope you find fulfilling in other ways. Generally, could the workers cut back to 20-hours a week, taking (I assume) product discounts, getting “dibs” on new (or “used” as NKG) shipments… and then finding a union job at your manufacturing industry, or a non-union food/retail/service industry for 40-hours for your primeJob.

Again, if lots of profit (that I have trouble imagining)… absolutely unionize to get a fair wage for 40-hours, overtime above that, healthcare, 401k access, whatever you are seeking…

However, know depending on how profit motivated the owner(s) are, that might lower their profits enough to make them give up and liquidate and find their next profit maker… and then… you’ll be looking for a new job… not in your passion industry.

No idea right answers on this one.


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## MGibster (Nov 10, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> Sooooo… I need more data to figure how supportive I am of the unionization…
> 
> Is there evidence of extreme profit margins? Does the owner(s) drive new $120k+ cars, changing pretty often? Massive $2m+ house? Have crazy mahogany office setup?



There are considerations other than profit margins and even employee pay that a union might address.  A union might negotiate for benefits (medical, dental, vision, etc., etc.), better working conditions, stable work schedules, and job security.  


Blue Orange said:


> You can try to support worker-owned cooperatives (Mondragon in Spain comes to mind), but I don't know if that exists in the gaming industry, which after all has a nonessential product and usually thin margins.



If a company can only stay in business by paying their employees less than a living wage, maybe they shouldn't be in business.  After all, those company's are actually a drain on society because social services often have to step in to assist the employees.  



Lazvon said:


> I am thankful folks sacrifice for this hobby - but I have to assume a large chunk of working in this hobby industry do so for the satisfaction that comes with it. Much the same as many “starving artists”…



This reminds me of the joke about the circus employee complaining about having to clean the animals' cages.  He friend turns to him and asks why he doesn't quit and he replies, "What, and give up show business?"  In this particular case, we're talking about employees of a retail store/warehouse.  I'm not sure those folks are in it for the satisfaction of working in the gaming industry.  



Lazvon said:


> Generally, could the workers cut back to 20-hours a week, taking (I assume) product discounts, getting “dibs” on new (or “used” as NKG) shipments… and then finding a union job at your manufacturing industry, or a non-union food/retail/service industry for 40-hours for your primeJob.



Cutting people down to 20 hours a week means they won't qualify for benefits.  Under the Affordable Care Act, it means their employer doesn't have to offer them any medical benefits.  Product discounts and getting "dibs" on shipments doesn't put food on the table to feed their children.  People shouldn't have to hold down multiple jobs just to make ends meet.  



Lazvon said:


> Again, if lots of profit (that I have trouble imagining)… absolutely unionize to get a fair wage for 40-hours, overtime above that, healthcare, 401k access, whatever you are seeking…



The Fair Labor and Standards Act is a federal law that requires employers to pay their hourly employees overtime when they work more than 40 hours a week.  The union could negotiate a higher overtime rate, but generally speaking they don't need to because overtime is enshrined in law.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 10, 2022)

MGibster said:


> There are considerations other than profit margins and even employee pay that a union might address.  A union might negotiate for benefits (medical, dental, vision, etc., etc.), better working conditions, stable work schedules, and job security.




This is incredibly important. 

A union does not negotiate over wages, or even wages and benefits, but over the terms and conditions of employment. Things that people might take for granted if they are in a white collar or professional job ... not so much in other industries.

Bathroom breaks? That's an issue. Or you might be familiar with the recent rail issue we had ... most of the coverage was about the possible supply chain disruption. But the union wasn't interested in higher wages- the reason for the action was because ... and this might shock you ... because the workers in question were required to be "on call" 90% of the time. They had no sick days (either paid or unpaid). They could not take time off for funerals (!!!) that were not ... planned well in advance (!!!????!!!!!!). 

These things matter to people. I hope that the workers at Noble Knight Games succeed given that they have expressed their preference, and if the employer chooses to use union-busting tactics against the union as opposed to allowing a fair vote to happen ... I will make sure to never allow a dollar of my money go to anything sold by them.


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## eyeheartawk (Nov 10, 2022)

I emailed them and let them know that as somebody who has spent thousands upon thousands of dollars with them with my account there that I would not be shopping there anymore until their workers unionize. And that was _before_ they hired union busters. Now I'm of a mind to never shop there again. Disgusting.

_You have nothing to lose but your chains_


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## Lazvon (Nov 10, 2022)

MGibster said:


> There are considerations other than profit margins and even employee pay that a union might address. A union might negotiate for benefits (medical, dental, vision, etc., etc.), better working conditions, stable work schedules, and job security.



Um. Those eat into profits, thus calling into question viability of the company. Hence why Union or not in my mind, means so much.



MGibster said:


> Cutting people down to 20 hours a week means they won't qualify for benefits.



Didn’t say that. Folks who want benefits of union, even if potentially means the company shuts down, should ask for part time work so they can go get their monetary and other benefits net. Again, if the company is profitable enough - absolutely provide for these things directly to the employees. If not, and the employee wants the discounts/industry “experience” or whatever drive them to seek employment in this retail/warehouse… then they can either force it to close (not enough profit for owner(s) by unionizing, or figure out how to make it work for themselves to work there.



MGibster said:


> Fair Labor and Standards Act is a federal law



Yes, 1.5x base rate over 40 unless exempt for that type of job. Holiday/weekend/shift hours if not over 40, all standard rate. Swapping for more hours voluntarily not covered if I remember correctly. All those extra things a Union could help with along with dismissal policies, advancement opportunities, tenure based dismissals, whatever they can dream up that made them feel they needed a union.

Almost every single thing they likely want though, will decrease profits the owner(s) are taking… thus risking the viability of the business for the owner, thus risking closure - and no job. Ummm, win?

Again, don’t know the situation. They have to decide for themselves. I am neither for or against them unionizing without further data as to the impacts to the viability of the business. And I don’t work there anyways so have no voice other than hoping NKG can survive so I can conduct commerce with them. I also wouldn’t work there unless something drastically changes in my life (good - can retire today, or bad - no longer employable in current career).


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## Staffan (Nov 10, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> Almost every single thing they likely want though, will decrease profits the owner(s) are taking… thus risking the viability of the business for the owner, thus risking closure - and no job. Ummm, win?



A business that isn't viable while providing decent terms of employment for its workers is not viable, period. It is not reasonable that workers should live in squalor just because someone wants to cosplay as a businessman.


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## Lazvon (Nov 10, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Bathroom breaks? That's an issue. Or you might be familiar with the recent rail issue we had ... most of the coverage was about the possible supply chain disruption. But the union wasn't interested in higher wages- the reason for the action was because ... and this might shock you ... because the workers in question were required to be "on call" 90% of the time. They had no sick days (either paid or unpaid). They could not take time off for funerals (!!!) that were not ... planned well in advance (!!!????!!!!!!).



Doesn’t all those things impact profitability? Or at least business operations if unpaid leave and can’t get anyone to cover? Or back to profitability and that unpaid time off, that increases someone covering their hours above 40-hours that week and paid 1.5x per hour? 

Again, if the company can afford top union busting law firm… I would bet they can cover the union demands… then it just depends on how petty the owner(s) is… is 30% margins enough or is that 33% margin they feel they deserve as the owner that important?

Again, without more data, can only express imaginary counter arguments.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 10, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> Almost every single thing they likely want though, will decrease profits the owner(s) are taking… thus risking the viability of the business for the owner, thus risking closure - and no job. Ummm, win?




_If you unionize, we will close the business and you'll all lose your jobs!
-_Charles Montgomery Plantagenet Schicklgruber "Monty" Burns

Oh, wait, that wasn't Mr. Burns! That was _every union buster, every time._

Did you know that corporate profits in the US have been trending upwards from 1951 until today, reaching a record high in 2022? In  2022 Q2, corporate profits in the US were ... wait for it .... wait for it .... 2,522.6 BEEEELLEEEEEON Dollars. And yet ... we have to worry that the corporations might go out of business if workers get bathroom breaks or are allowed to go to funerals?

Sure.


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## Lazvon (Nov 10, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Did you know that corporate profits in the US have been trending upwards from 1951 until today, reaching a record high in 2022? In 2022 Q2, corporate profits in the US were ... wait for it .... wait for it .... 2,522.6 BEEEELLEEEEEON Dollars.



Absolutely! My retirement at 55 until I die hopefully before 110 and money to spend on hobbies requires it… 

Do we think NKG is that profitable? If so, ABSOLUTELY UNIONIZE and ensure the employees get all their needs taken care of!!! I don’t think they are in that bucket, but hopefully wrong.


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## billd91 (Nov 10, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Did you know that corporate profits in the US have been trending upwards from 1951 until today, reaching a record high in 2022? In  2022 Q2, corporate profits in the US were ... wait for it .... wait for it .... 2,522.6 BEEEELLEEEEEON Dollars. And yet ... we have to worry that the corporations might go out of business if workers get bathroom breaks or are allowed to go to funerals?



Or, heaven forbid, workers might actually share in some of that profit. 
And keeping in mind that those record profits are also at a time of high inflation caused by... apparently *anything but* those record profits.


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## Fifth Element (Nov 10, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> Doesn’t all those things impact profitability?



"But if we let our employees go to the bathroom, we won't make as much money!"


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## Fifth Element (Nov 10, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> Do we think NKG is that profitable? If so, ABSOLUTELY UNIONIZE and ensure the employees get all their needs taken care of!!!



You keep dodging this point - if your business cannot afford to pay its workers a livable wage and treat them like human beings, then your business model sucks and you should go out of business.


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## Blue Orange (Nov 10, 2022)

Fifth Element said:


> You keep dodging this point - if your business cannot afford to pay its workers a livable wage and treat them like human beings, then your business model sucks and you should go out of business.



In some cases, this may actually leave the people in the area worse off.

We're talking a first world country in the games industry, though.

It's also worth mentioning that even if you could raise taxes on _every industry _to support a greater welfare state in the aggregate (as most European countries do), raising the costs of _one particular business_ might only drive it out of business. So it's not so clear-cut.


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## billd91 (Nov 10, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> In some cases, this may actually leave the people in the area worse off.



That's always the excuse used to justify not imposing safeguards to prevent the exploitation of workers. It's ultimately a fear-mongering tactic.


Blue Orange said:


> It's also worth mentioning that even if you could raise taxes on _every industry _to support a greater welfare state in the aggregate (as most European countries do), raising the costs of _one particular business_ might only drive it out of business. So it's not so clear-cut.



Not just European countries. We tax corporate profit too. Eisenhower had some very strong things to say about it back in the 1950s. Our rate is higher than many European countries, but we allow loopholes out the wazoo.


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## Blue Orange (Nov 10, 2022)

billd91 said:


> That's always the excuse used to justify not imposing safeguards to prevent the exploitation of workers. It's ultimately a fear-mongering tactic.



I've thought a lot about that--I used to be a lot more pro-union until recently, and the experience of unionization in the 1930s did give the USA one of its few periods of income compression, but the heavy stimuli of the past few years seem to have caused inflation of a sort I haven't seen in a while, and my own readings of Latin American history seem to show that worker power leads to increased inflation (though lack of it leads to very unpleasant levels of inequality). I'm not really sure what the best choice is. Ultimately it's up to everyone to decide whether they want to keep patronizing Noble Knight.


billd91 said:


> Not just European countries. We tax corporate profit too. Eisenhower had some very strong things to say about it back in the 1950s. Our rate is higher than many European countries, but we allow loopholes out the wazoo.



Yep, I've read that. I wouldn't oppose getting rid of some of those loopholes, but I don't have the hundred million on hand to buy enough congressmen to do that.


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## MGibster (Nov 10, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> Almost every single thing they likely want though, will decrease profits the owner(s) are taking… thus risking the viability of the business for the owner, thus risking closure - and no job. Ummm, win?



I work in HR, in practical terms this means I represent management not employees.  If an employer can’t afford to pay a living wage or provide a tolerable working environment or conditions, they don’t deserve to be in business.  

I am not entirely unsympathetic to the needs of management, but the histrionic cries that they’ll go out of business are a bit much to swallow.


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## Blue Orange (Nov 10, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I work in HR, in practical terms this means I represent management not employees.  If an employer can’t afford to pay a living wage or provide a tolerable working environment or conditions, they don’t deserve to be in business.
> 
> I am not entirely unsympathetic to the needs of management, but the histrionic cries that they’ll go out of business are a bit much to swallow.



If we're talking Exxon or Amazon or Starbucks, yeah.

Some of these games companies, I wonder...


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## eyeheartawk (Nov 10, 2022)

NKG owner, probably idk:

Food $200
Data $150
Rent $800
Candles $3,600
Utility Labor $150
someone who is good at the economy please help me budget this. my family is dying


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 10, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I work in HR, in practical terms this means I represent management not employees.  If an employer can’t afford to pay a living wage or provide a tolerable working environment or conditions, they don’t deserve to be in business.




Or they have too many employees and need to let a few go, so that they can pay the remaining ones better and give better benefits. But the crappy route many companies try to go is just cut everyone's hours, so that no one even qualifies for benefits. Or even worse, they do both and just put more into their own pockets. And it all contributes to the Big Lie that "no one wants to work!"


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## Malmuria (Nov 10, 2022)

Types of theft:


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## Malmuria (Nov 10, 2022)

Here's a scene about the play out across the US:

manager: "hey I know you took time off for christmas but we are really slammed right now and I need you to come in"
employee: "no, I'm spending time with my family, I'll be back in two days"
manager: "well clearly you don't care about this job.  Maybe I'll have to find someone who is more reliable"


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## Malmuria (Nov 10, 2022)

Tabletop, card game retailers join the game industry’s burgeoning union push
					

In Wisconsin and Washington, tabletop workers are unionizing




					www.polygon.com
				






> A second Noble Knight Games employee, who asked to speak anonymously, continued: “The tabletop industry is exciting, and it’s fun. I think employers count on that when they offer us wages that aren’t in line with the responsibilities that we’re being asked to have. We love our company. We love the industry. That’s why we’re [here]. We just think that our expertise and our talent deserves better wages, better benefits, and a better working environment.”
> 
> Workers at Noble Knight Games, an online board and tabletop game retailer located in Wisconsin, are the latest to file for a union vote with the NLRB. In addition to better pay and environment, workers told Polygon that sick days aren’t a thing at Noble Knight. “It’d be nice to get some of those,” Zebertavage said. “Our PTO is already pretty scant.”


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## Blue Orange (Nov 10, 2022)

Malmuria said:


> Tabletop, card game retailers join the game industry’s burgeoning union push
> 
> 
> In Wisconsin and Washington, tabletop workers are unionizing
> ...



BTW, the issue of paying less for a job that is pleasant in other ways is well described in economics as 'compensating differentials'.

The point is that employees have very little power in most cases (except recently, and that seems to be going away).


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 10, 2022)

Malmuria said:


> Here's a scene about the play out across the US:
> 
> manager: "hey I know you took time off for christmas but we are really slammed right now and I need you to come in"
> employee: "no, I'm spending time with my family, I'll be back in two days"
> manager: "well clearly you don't care about this job.  Maybe I'll have to find someone who is more reliable"




Read the r/antiwork subReddit and you will see a lot of this has been going on for years. There are people posting about managers contacting them while on vacation or maternity leave or at a funeral, or sick with Covid, and so on, not even just asking them to come in to work, but rather ordering them to come in.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 10, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Read the r/antiwork subReddit and you will see a lot of this has been going on for years. There are people posting about managers contacting them while on vacation or maternity leave or at a funeral, or sick with Covid, and so on, not even just asking them to come in to work, but rather ordering them to come in.




When I worked in the security industry, this was a real problem. Specifically, when I worked for the security and enforcement division of a US military contractor, it got to where I was working 60-70 hours a week (in violation of federal labor laws) because my employer would threaten me with termination if I didn't come in.


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## Lazvon (Nov 11, 2022)

I am clearly not expressing myself well. My apologies. Certainly not trying to be antagonistic, just try to express a view.

I am simply trying to state that if there is good profits, absolutely should pay/benefit the employees competitively.

If there isn’t enough profit (enough being whatever the owner(s) want), then the union risks the owner(s) closing up shop, and have no jobs instead.

I am not for or against unionizing for NKG. Just curious if the owner(s) are making tons of profit or a little to none… if little to none AND conditions are so bad they need a union, then it isn’t a viable business… close the doors and the 70 people can go try and find other jobs.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Nov 11, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> If there isn’t enough profit (enough being whatever the owner(s) want), then the union risks the owner(s) closing up shop, and have no jobs instead.



And what we're saying is that if the company cannot afford to pay the workers well and give them basic benefits, the company has failed. The existence of the company should not be dependent on exploiting the workers.


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## Lazvon (Nov 11, 2022)

Levistus's_Leviathan said:


> And what we're saying is that if the company cannot afford to pay the workers well and give them basic benefits, the company has failed. The existence of the company should not be dependent on exploiting the workers.



Surprised to quote myself… but yes, as I said…

“…if little to none [profit] AND conditions are so bad they need a union, then it isn’t a viable business… close the doors…”


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## MemBirdman (Nov 11, 2022)

Lazvon said:


> Sooooo… I need more data to figure how supportive I am of the unionization…
> 
> Is there evidence of extreme profit margins? Does the owner(s) drive new $120k+ cars, changing pretty often? Massive $2m+ house? Have crazy mahogany office setup?



Hi all. I’m in Customer Service at Noble Knight, and we appreciate the conversation, both on our behalf and questioning the viability and necessity of our organizing. I’ve scanned through the thread, and while there’s a lot covered, I figured that this line of questions would be the best place to start.

I can’t get into specifics about profit margin, but elsewhere, it was mentioned that the average FLGS’s margin is 5-8%. That percentage is significantly less than the profit margin at NK. I mean...yeah, SIGNIFICANTLY less. Think of us more like Gamstop than an FLGS, where selling used games is virtually nothing but profit for a store. If they buy a PS3 game for $5 and sell it for $15, none of that $10 goes to the publisher or to Sony, but they keep it all. Gamstop is a big corporate entity that’s starting to buckle under its own weight, but NK is entirely out of one location. If you think of the store in those terms, you’ll start understanding why we’re doing what we’re doing.

As far as the other questions:

Shiny vehicles, changing often: yes
Massive homes: Yes, kind of. One of the ownership group spends the majority of time at one of his houses in Florida. Full disclosure, I don’t know how big the homes are, but once you get to the phrase “one of his houses,” I think that gets the point across.
Crazy mahogany office setup: Honestly, I laughed when I first read that because I thought “How did he predict that?” Yes, crazy setup with a big stereo system, personal bathroom and a six-foot Harley Quinn (from the Arkham video game series) figure. And that’s the office of that owner in Florida, so the space is used less than a month out of the year.

This is completely anecdotal, but I’ll share my experience: I started the day after Gen Con in 2019. At that time, there were 30 people employed with the company, and the company had just moved into our current location the month before, condensing five warehouses into one one big facility. Now, we are around 75 employees and ownership is already actively preparing to expand our warehouse, even adding a second floor, because we’re just plain running out of room. In preparing to organize, I’ve found that pay has been generally static throughout. One of my colleagues checked the average cost of living needs for the area the store is at and found that it’s a little more than $22/hour. Of the 70-ish of us that would be employees, taking out those in management and ownership, no one makes that. Right now, I only see one person making more than $20/hr. Everyone else makes less than $20/hr, and most make less than $15/hr. If I can give one example of our fight, it was given yesterday after our open enrollment insurance meetings: “Had the insurance meeting. I was on our top tier insurance paying $75/paycheck out of pocket. The new premiums have me paying $103/paycheck out of pocket at the LOWEST TIER.”

I am not pro-Union, and my eyes are wide open in this process. I’ve told my colleagues and the CEA this, and they welcome that concern. I’m sharing this so that y’all understand where we’re coming from. We don’t want to feed the trolls, but have wanted to discuss true needs with management and ownership. We’ve been shut down too many times individually, and have seen the store thrive too much the last couple years, so we’ve had to do something to try to help ourselves. It’s been met with hard resistance, but we’re on the path with a supermajority of the employees on board with the union, and we’re looking forward to the next steps together.


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## darjr (Nov 12, 2022)

MemBirdman said:


> Hi all. I’m in Customer Service at Noble Knight, and we appreciate the conversation, both on our behalf and questioning the viability and necessity of our organizing. I’ve scanned through the thread, and while there’s a lot covered, I figured that this line of questions would be the best place to start.
> 
> I can’t get into specifics about profit margin, but elsewhere, it was mentioned that the average FLGS’s margin is 5-8%. That percentage is significantly less than the profit margin at NK. I mean...yeah, SIGNIFICANTLY less. Think of us more like Gamstop than an FLGS, where selling used games is virtually nothing but profit for a store. If they buy a PS3 game for $5 and sell it for $15, none of that $10 goes to the publisher or to Sony, but they keep it all. Gamstop is a big corporate entity that’s starting to buckle under its own weight, but NK is entirely out of one location. If you think of the store in those terms, you’ll start understanding why we’re doing what we’re doing.
> 
> ...



Well dang. Thank you for sharing that and I hope the Union goes through.


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## Lazvon (Nov 12, 2022)

Excellent information. Clearly need to unionize and properly provide for the workers.

I am a senior executive in technology industry. In the late 80s and through the 90s I was consulting and consulted at several of smaller privately owned companies where the owners were clearly maximizing their profits at incredible levels, and yes, the fancy office, cars, and home(s) were key indicators.

Anyway, yes, should provide better for the employees. What I would offer… 75 employees… retail/warehouse/CSR… starting $15/hour up to $30/hour with annual raises based on productivity and tenure. On warehouse/CSR side, if your productivity drops and is the lowest, your next raise might be nothing… and 3-6months later if you don’t come up to average, probably time to part ways - have 4-weeks base + 1-week per year severance. The highest productivity maybe 7%, average ~2.5% raise and for weird years like this one, probably half of the full year CPI %. The next year if no deflation, would give the other half.

3-weeks/year PTO, recommend you don’t use it all up front in case you are sick in the fall. Can carryover 1-week. Years 3-7, 4-weeks. Years 8+, 5-weeks.

Warehouse closed between Xmas and New Years. Can work in retail if any of those folks want off that week. Inventory first week of July for warehouse - no recieving/shipping.

Healthcare fully paid (no copays) for anyone making less than $75k/year.

5-days immediate paid bereavement spouse/partner/child. 3-days parent/brother/sister/grandkid. 2-days other family/close friend (twice a year).

4-weeks paid childbirth.

41-55 hours 1.5x hourly rate; 56+ hours 2x.

2x15m breaks or 3x10m, 1x30m break per scheduled 8.5 hour shift. Another 15m if 10-12 hours.

75 folks, 20% low end of pay (average $17/hour), 50% middle ($22/hour) 30% top ($27/hour)…

Actually going to have to hire another 10-people with all them at PTO or pay a lot more in OT.

Probably going to have stop buying houses and cars quite so often… but should be doable it sounds like… definitely going to cut into the profits though.

Hope you guys get the union through and fair treatment deserved!


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## Lazvon (Nov 12, 2022)

Oh, I don’t know how to measure retail side productivity. At game stores I have frequented over the last 35-years… some of the employees that kept me coming back never “sold” me anything, I do not think the register person was giving them credit as I am sure they didn’t see them talking to me about games and such… or even coming back days later to buy when they aren’t around after thinking about it or reading more about it… as such, I don’t know to fairly compensate retail… hmmm. Comment cards/surveys I guess.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 12, 2022)

MemBirdman said:


> One of my colleagues checked the average cost of living needs for the area the store is at and found that it’s a little more than $22/hour. Of the 70-ish of us that would be employees, taking out those in management and ownership, no one makes that. Right now, I only see one person making more than $20/hr. Everyone else makes less than $20/hr, and most make less than $15/hr. If I can give one example of our fight, it was given yesterday after our open enrollment insurance meetings: “Had the insurance meeting. I was on our top tier insurance paying $75/paycheck out of pocket. The new premiums have me paying $103/paycheck out of pocket at the LOWEST TIER.”




One question and one agreement.

First on the cost of living. Was that based on what it would cost for a single person living by themselves to afford a decent place, pay bills, good food, etc, rather than on the shared cost of having a roommate or two, or being part of a working couple, where expenses are shared? I am always suspicious of all cost-of-living estimates because of this, since living solo in the US is much rarer than splitting costs with other people.

Second on the insurance. That huge shift in cost and quality is enough by itself to do some collective bargaining, or going further to forming a union. I hope at the minimum you all can correct that.


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## MemBirdman (Nov 12, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> One question and one agreement.
> 
> First on the cost of living. Was that based on what it would cost for a single person living by themselves to afford a decent place, pay bills, good food, etc, rather than on the shared cost of having a roommate or two, or being part of a working couple, where expenses are shared? I am always suspicious of all cost-of-living estimates because of this, since living solo in the US is much rarer than splitting costs with other people.
> 
> Second on the insurance. That huge shift in cost and quality is enough by itself to do some collective bargaining, or going further to forming a union. I hope at the minimum you all can correct that.



Totally fair question. I don’t know the answer, and I also understand the skepticism because I don’t.


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## billd91 (Dec 1, 2022)

Breaking news.


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## CleverNickName (Dec 1, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Breaking news.


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## Davies (Dec 1, 2022)

Huh. Have to look into buying something from them, after this.


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## darjr (Dec 1, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Breaking news.



This is awesome!!!

For those that don’t go to twitter.


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## Riley (Dec 1, 2022)

Great!

I’ll need to buy something from them in thanks.


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## Lazvon (Dec 1, 2022)

Good to hear. Hopefully a more equitable arrangement for the employees is to come, and the business can continue growing!


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## Zardnaar (Dec 5, 2022)

Malmuria said:


> Here's a scene about the play out across the US:
> 
> manager: "hey I know you took time off for christmas but we are really slammed right now and I need you to come in"
> employee: "no, I'm spending time with my family, I'll be back in two days"
> manager: "well clearly you don't care about this job.  Maybe I'll have to find someone who is more reliable"




 In NZ we basically close down from around the 23rd through to January 6ish. 

 We take that holiday then another one for a week or two in late January to go camping, then get 10-11 stat days off and have around another weeks holiday left over. Ten sick days off and time and a half and day in lieu if you work one of those public holidays. 

 That's the minimum some people get an extra week or two for long service or whatever.

 I would work every stat day except Christmas if I had the option.


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