# How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?



## SHARK

Greetings!

I really liked the creativity that my friend mmadsen inspired about a band of Goblins. In one of my campaigns, there is an interesting situation that is developing. The details follow!--

Well, suppose that you are the commander of a powerful fortress. How would you develop it's defenses? You must be prepared for commando raids by groups of 15-40 powerful adventurers, as well as raids by enemy cavalry forces, and ultimately--a showdown with an invading Vallorean army composed of 350,000 Legionnaires! 

The Valloreans are organized into thirty-five Legions, each having 10,000 Legionnaires. The Vallorean army will no doubt have plenty of supplies, engineers, extra equipment, and formidable magical support from enchanted war machines, powerful warrior-clerics, and dreaded wizards. The Valloreans can also expect to have various contingents of elves, dwarves, halflings, as well as other races and beings, including some ogres and small units of Cloud-Giants.

The fortress that you command is a great stone citadel that was forged from a great mountain-top by a group of powerful Wang-Liang/Half-Fiends. The fortress rests on the upper ridge of a series of mountain-slopes and fairly deep ravined meadows. Imagine the great fortress set into a ridge area with six sides. Two sides are sheer mountain cliffs that drop straight-away into a vast canyon that drops 1800-feet below to a huge, foaming river. On a third side, the ridge gradually slopes about a hundred feet down, where the top of a great river flows, and drops off in a great waterfall that crashes further below, some 1800 feet. The river itself is one mile wide, and fast-flowing. The surrounding area for miles and miles is dark, temperate rainforest. The remaining sides, as it were, gradually slope into the dark forest, punctuated by steep ravines--until the ridges settle some five-hundred feet below. Once at the bottom, the forest and land is fairly level, marked on occasion by a large hill now and then, or a rolling meadow. The river flows from a north-eastern direction, before turning south of the fortress, and flowing due west.

Season: Spring. The tempatures range in the 75-90 degrees, with lots of rainfall. The enemy forces are known to be not far away, and they may launch operations against your area anytime this year. The general geographical area you are in command of is somewhat isolated strategically from receiving any large reinforcements. Occasional supplies and modest reinforcements may reach you from time to time. Largely, you must make do with the resources that you have at your command.

The fortress is not the only area that you must hold. The fortress not only guards the river, but also an important trade route that extends to the south. The Valloreans have forces capable of raiding the trade route, but because of terrain, and diplomatic relations with several of these southern nations, the route will probably remain open. However, keeping trade open to the south for the nation that you belong to is not the only priority. The very fact that you command this important fortress, and the rugged, mountainous area that the citadel overlooks, also poses a strategic problem for the invading Vallorean forces. The Valloreans cannot advance too far further into the northern lands of the kingdom, nor can they advance far to the east, because of you. The forces and position here represent a threat that they cannot leave unguarded.

Still, with forces of the evil kingdom massing in the north, and north-east, the Valloreans cannot fully commit to crushing your position with all of their field armies, thus restricting the forces that they are likely to have available for this year's operations. Keep in mind though, that the Valloreans are well-equipped, and determined enough to organize all-weather operations, and ferocious offensives even in the dead of winter. Thus, you as the commander, cannot rest easy that you only have to concern yourself with fair-weather campaigning! None the less, your continued resistance weakens the invading Valloreans, because they cannot likewise amass their full strength against your countrymen to the east and to the north. 

With time, the Vampire King Mallenar will gather new, powerful armies to sweep the Valloreans in a storm of blood and fire! Your continued resistance here, in this important area, is critical for the great king to formulate his plans. Needless to say--your failure to succeed in this mission will not please the great Vampire King. You can imagine your fate--it will not be pleasant. But, of course, you have great capability to emerge victorious in this struggle!

The fortress also features a magma lake deep underground, as well as extensive ruby, silver, and iron mines. The fortress also guards two large cities--one approximately eight miles upriver, on the western bank of the river, named Koben-Charrak; while the other city, Mydren, is on the other side, some 18 miles away to the east. Both cities have populations of approximately 120,000 people. Politically, the cities can be sacrificed. However, these cities also help maintain the southern trade route, as well as supply your fortress with food and resources. Though you could survive if the Valloreans captured them, your forces will be more capable and better supplied if you can maintain control of these two cities. There is a ridgeline of mountains that run from the north, and gradually end in a cluster of hills that lay to the west of the fortress. This line of mountains--some rising to 8000 feet--serve to form a forested and rugged protection to the city of Koben-Charrak that is to the north of the fortress, and indirectly, also Mydren which is further to the east. The fairly level areas of forest and meadows open up for approximately three miles to the north of the fortress, before the mountain slopes begin. Thus, the invading Valloreans would have to essentially come through this fortress to get to the two cities beyond. That is essentially, but not absolutely. With time and determination, the Valloreans could make it through the rugged mountains to the north with a force, and come down on Koben-Charrak from the north-west.

Chief areas for defense and fortification for you to be generally focused on are as follows: 

(1) The fortress itself
(2) The surrounding forest
(3) The mountains and hills within about ten miles in every direction.
(4) The city of Koben-Charrak, and the river-crossings. There is an extensive barge system and river traffic that moves across, and up and down the great river. This river traffic is not only a source of supplies, but also troop deployment. Your forces are familiar with the terrain, and the terrain favours the defense. Attacking forces will be in for a difficult time, even under the best leadership. Being outnumbered, and with limited hard military support, you will have less margin for error, and will have to deploy and equip your forces carefully, and also to make every operation, ambush, and struggle count. The enemy forces may very well send elite units of adventurers to assassinate you, and wipe out the command staff before the arrival of the Legions. In addition, though you are quite capable, it should be realised that the enemy will very likely end up assaulting the fortress by storm. The Valloreans will not be merciful, nor will they spare the city populations. Anything that seems tainted and wicked in whatever manner, can be expected to be put to the sword, or burned at the stake. Be prepared for ferocious, relentless, and absolutely ruthless attacks by the Valloreans.

Thus, that is the political, military, and economic situation. Your 
forces are as follows:
____________________________________________________
Forces:

Commander: 50th level. (You)

(12) elite specialists: Each are no more than 30th level.

(24) Lords: Each are no more than 20th level.

(1) Wang-Liang/Half-Fiend General. (30th level)

(2) Wang-Liang/Half-Fiend Lords. (20th level)

(30) Wang-Liang/Half-Fiends (16th level)

(300) Wang-Liangs (12th level)

(38) Fire-Giants (Reasonable deployments, no individual higher than 20th level.)

(24) Cloud-Giants (Reasonable deployments, no individual higher than 20th level.)

(15) Chimera's

(12) Manticore's

(600) Vampires, (Reasonably distributed between 6th-12th level)

(880) Werewolves (Reasonably deployed between 4th-12th level)

(2800) Ogres (all are young Ogres from a military academy; no individual can be higher than 10th level, reasonably distributed.)

(26,000) Hobgoblins; standard levels as organized.

(100,000) Humans; roughly organized as follows:

standard level progression, as per the DMG for population distribution. In any event, all are at a minimum of 2nd level, with the majority being Fighters.

You are only restricted to appropriate equipment and treasure levels as noted for specific characters in the DMG. The forces described, however, can be deployed in whatever manner you think best, whether it is Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry, Heavy Cavalry, what have you. Population percnetages from the DMG will also serve as a guide for how many wizards, clerics, and so on are available, as well as what level they are. With these restrictions in mind, you may equip and organize the forces as you think best, and as limited by the appropriate treasure levels.
____________________________________________________

How would you organize, equip, and deploy such forces?

How would you fortify the various locations?

Feel free to write up the various characters and equip them (individual characters) with whatever magic item that is from the "core" rulebooks (DMG, PHB, FRCS, OA, ELH, and the class-splat-books.) 

How would you defend the fortress? With what magic? What kind of traps? What kind of forces?

Various ideas that you develop and detail will potantially be put to the test with my group!

I have thought of several ideas already, but I thought it would be cool and fun, too!--to hear what the fine gathering of minds here thinks. Thankyou very much, for your thoughtful consideration!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Edena_of_Neith

A very difficult and very intriguing question.

  I'm thinking on this one.


----------



## Yuan-Ti

My first thought is working some of those 600 (holy sh*t!) vampires into the Valorean army camps. They would make excellent spies and could even serve as a plague "infecting" the Vallorean troops. 

Werewolves would make excellent scouts so that I know of any movement in the wilderness areas. 


Two questions: 

1) How am I feeding this massive garrison?
2) Do the Valloreans have more than 35 Legions or are they bringing everything they have against me? 

Obvious weaknesses:

1) I've got no one under my command who excels at tunnel fighting. Therefore the fortress is vulnerable to attack from below if the Valloreans can command large numbers of Dwarfs, Gnomes, etc. 
2) My air force is pathetic. What have the Valloreans got in terms of air assault forces?


----------



## Hand of Evil

Really would have to see a lay of the land.  

Some thoughts:

I would limit ways to the fortress, this could be done by standing stones to block siege equipment to pits.  All ways up would expose the right side of the body (the shieldless arm) to arrows.  I would have placed my catapults for maxium effect, most likely a cross over pattern, also have worked out ranges ahead of time.  I like fire, so I would have stocked oils for dropping on foes.    

Now being RICH I would have placed immovable rods at places in air in front of my fortress, this means any rocks that hit them would be like hitting a wall, falling down on the foe below, I could fire over them but it would limit what could hit me.  

Too many spells to think about on how to use but I would use them as a mine field.


----------



## Bonedagger

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> *Now being RICH I would have placed immovable rods at places in air in front of my fortress, this means any rocks that hit them would be like hitting a wall, falling down on the foe below, I could fire over them but it would limit what could hit me.*




They're still just Rods. They can get broken (Hardness 10, 10 hp). Anyway. A flying bulder would probably exceed a pressure of 8000 pounds.


----------



## Hand of Evil

Bonedagger said:
			
		

> *
> 
> They're still just Rods. They can get broken (Hardness 10, 10 hp). Anyway. A flying bulder would probably exceed a pressure of 8000 pounds. *




True they could break but being hit by 8000 pounds (4 tons) is not the same as supporting 8000 pounds.  The rods would move.  The rods are also harder than the stone 10 vs 8, and hit point are 30/inch for rod, 15/inch of stone.


----------



## Bonedagger

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> *
> 
> True they could break but being hit by 8000 pounds (4 tons) is not the same as supporting 8000 pounds.  The rods would move.  The rods are also harder than the stone 10 vs 8, and hit point are 30/inch for rod, 15/inch of stone. *




Your right. It's not the same. It's worse. It actually damage the object more in real life.

They would probably move out of the way but that's not the problem here. Neither is breaking the rod as per D&D definition (27 DC). The Rod will be struck by flying bulders battering it useless. Don't know about catapults but a Hillgiant does 2d6+7 dmg per hit with a bulder. Kind of bad when the rod only has 10 hardness and 10 hp (DMG. p. 195).

(And 8000 pounds ~ 3,6 tons)


Have somebody throw up a wall of force instead.


----------



## Zenon

Hi SHARK!

The problem with trying to have the Vampires infiltrate the Valloreans is that the Valloreans have too much experience fighting them in SHARK's world. They same with the Were-creatures.

This would be my large scale plan(I'll leave the details up to you!):

Use of real-time intelligence to draw an enemy force into a kill zone. The kill zones would not be pre-determined, but established to react to enemy movements. There is too much area to try to defend.

Utilizing the human population spread across the 10 mile zone (I am assuming many small settlements, farms, etc). I would place at least one agent in each armed with a single use magic item of Whispering Wind. This is assuming to farmlands are expendable and the stronghold has large storeroom, or magic storeroom ala Stronghold Builder's Guidebook).

From the SRD:



> Whispering Wind
> 
> Transmutation
> Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
> Components: V, S
> Casting Time: 1 action
> Range: One mile/level
> Area: 10-ft.-radius spread
> Duration: Until discharged (destination is reached) or no more than 1 hour/level
> Saving Throw: None
> Spell Resistance: No
> 
> The character sends a message or sound on the wind to a designated spot. The whispering wind travels to a specific location within range that is familiar to the character, provided that it can find a way to the location. (It can’t pass through walls, for instance.) The whispering wind is as gentle and unnoticed as a zephyr until it reaches the location. It then delivers its whisper-quiet message or other sound. Note that the message is delivered regardless of whether anyone is present to hear it. The wind then dissipates. The character can prepare the spell to bear a message of up to twenty-five words, cause the spell to deliver other sounds for 1 round, or merely have the whispering wind seem to be a faint stirring of the air. The character can likewise cause the whispering wind to move as slowly as one mile per hour or as quickly as one mile per 10 minutes. When the spell reaches its objective, it swirls and remains until the message is delivered. As with magic mouth, whispering wind cannot speak verbal components, use command words, or activate magical effects.




The potion or single-use magic item would be created at 1st level (to minimize cost and XP hit for item creation). This would still generate a 6 mile range (using the 1 mile in 10 minute rate with a 1 hour duration) to have the message delivered. Note also that the message does not have to be directed to a person, simply an area the user is familiar with. Having that area always manned will ensure receipt of message.

I would then utilize the vampires to turn anything in the armies path into a vampire spawn (if less than 5th level) or true vampire (if higher level). Lycanthropes take too long to be able to control their powers to create from scratch.

Spellcasters would be dispatched to Control Weather in the area, and utilize Call Lightning into the ranks of the army(this is assuming you have access to druidic magic). This should provide a dual purpose - harrass and slow army advancement thus gaining more time to raise vampire spawn in their path and also occupy enemy spellcasters by forcing them to expend resources to protect advancing troops, or memorize defensive spells instead of offensive ones.

Concentration of the destruction of supplies of the opposing forces would be the next highest priority target. Since the opposing forces will be opperating well withing a controlled area, forcing destruction of local supplies will force a dependence upon conventional supply lines, unless magic is used to transfer supplies in. Again, if this option is used, enemy spellcasters are forced to divert from offensive operations and are relegated into a support role. Hit and run raids against supply caravans then then commence, forcing use of troops to attempt to protect them.

While harrassing enemy supply lines, destroy beasts of burden and infect as many soldiers with lycanthopy and vampirism as possible. Use hit and run tactics. This will generate a strain upon enemy resouces (clerical) to heal/cure troops. If they do not choose to pursue this, it will generate a loss in morale as troops are force to kill friends and comrades, knowing they are next to die at their friends hands if they are infected. Loss of beasts of burden will slow the enemy to foot speed.

The domination power of the vampires should be used to sow confusion and chaos within enemy ranks. Once a person is dominated, the range is unlimited for control. Use this to create "catspaws" to turn the tide at critical junctures. Do not try this on high level opponents, simply having a sergeant or two that can give "wrong orders" in the midst of a pitched battle will do wonders!

Obviously, the enemy will expect this type of combat, and thus choose to use adventurer types to attempt to resolve obstacles from their armies path.

Since the village (farm, etc.) has a minimal force investiture, losses there will be light if they are chosen to be used in this manner.

If they choose to use adventurer types against the stronghold, an RDF of high level will be kept on alert for this eventuality. The object will be to allow entry of the adventurers, then cutoff retreat, envelop and overcome. Care must be taken to insure being able to cutoff retreat by teleport, etherial and astral travel, etc. Planar allies can be gathered to watch, report incursions, and then cut of escapes. Strategic areas in the stronghold should be warded to provide silent alarms to incursions (things like gatehouses, storerooms, etc.)

A force of you own high level "adventurers" should be created to strike at the enemy. However, do not strike at their high level opposition, concentrate your overwhelming force upon their rank and file troops. A contingent of 12th to 16th level fiends can teleport in, decimate 100 troops and quickly leave with impunity, do so. If met with able resistance, do not fight, leave! This will again force the enemy to react by either expending magic to protect forces thus removing it from offensive operations, or by attempting to keep it's own high level operatives to defend their troops thus removing them from offensive operations against the keep. 

Overall, I would suggest an offensive strategy instead of a defensive one. Your forces will want to be proactive rather than reactive, after all, you're the one sitting in a stronghold waiting for the army to march up to the gate. The stronghold cannot move and that is it's biggest weakness. Do not give the enemy the chance to concentrate on this weakness by providing him with more worries than he can address.

More later if I think of anything!


----------



## Hand of Evil

Bonedagger said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Your right. It's not the same. It's worse. It actually damage the object more in real life.
> 
> They would probably move out of the way but that's not the problem here. Neither is breaking the rod as per D&D definition (27 DC). The Rod will be struck by flying bulders battering it useless. Don't know about catapults but a Hillgiant does 2d6+7 dmg per hit with a bulder. Kind of bad when the rod only has 10 hardness and 10 hp (DMG. p. 195).
> 
> (And 8000 pounds ~ 3,6 tons)
> 
> 
> Have somebody throw up a wall of force instead. *



Yes that would be easier.  

Got to love those METIC tons.  US 2000 pounds = 1 ton


----------



## alsih2o

well, first off would be to infiltrate the weaker members of the opposing army with vampires using their "dominate geek" ability to set them about destroying supplies and setting fires..after that, things should get a might easier


----------



## Urbanmech

Use the vampires as a night-time recon and hit and run force.  They can move nearly unseen in mist form and small forces of them can shift out and ambush the enemies scout parties.  

Make sure that one of your high level generals is a druid.  Druids are the masters of army killing spells, creeping doom, fire storm, enlarged poison vines, and the list goes on.  Plus the druid can sneak in and with natural spell and eschew materials cast as a tiny animal.  No one expects the thrush/camp rat to drop hordes of insects and torents of flame on the troops.

The druid can also change into an elemental creature and burrow tunnels to help fend off an attack from dwarves/gnomes coming up underneath the fortress.  The vampires can also fight effectively underground even if it is daylight above.

Make sure to have a contingent of clerics tasked with casting create food and water to feed your troops, also try to get a decanter of endless water for even more water supplies.


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Cool stuff! I should also note that the cities each have a great deal of farmland to their north, and east. Geographically, the cities are to the north/north-east of the fortress. The river is to the east, flowing south/south-west, then turning to flow horizontally to the fortress due west.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## BiggusGeekus

SHARK said:
			
		

> *Commander: 50th level. (You)*




What class am I?  Do I have access to _teleport_ or _wish_?  Epic spells?

Barring all else I'd drop a anti-magic field around my attackers.  My forces sound like they could wipe the floor with un-augmented humans.  Or I could just drop some flux-slime from the ELH on the opposition.

I'd also pick up one of those scrying Mirrors (I forget the name offhand).  It lets you scry a person or location and then teleport to and from that point.  Nasty, nasty tool for sudden strikes.


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Whatever class that you think is best. Write it up! Epic spells, Epic feats, custom magic items, whatever.

Though I didn't expressly note it, according to population figures in the DMG and ELH, the 100,000 humans will have various dispositions of different levels, including leaders, special troops, veterans, and so on. 

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Alejandro

Given a dozen shadowdancers with their shadow companions, start turning the rank and file Valloreans into uncontrolled shadows. Make use of the terrain and strike from below, night after night.


----------



## Velenne

Big scale combats...I live for this stuff...

Never underestimate the power of teleports.  I should hope that I've utilized the SHB's Guide, or at least a few permenant dimensional locks to ward against the enemy simply scrying our fortress,  opening a teleport circle inside, and sending in a few thousand soldiers that could give a rat's eye about our night attacks and defenses.  Leave one heavily defended room un_Lock_ed for the purposes of the our own teleports and summonings.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, but luckily for me, I strongly doubt my foes have the resources to drop dimensional anchors all over their armies every day.  I would take advantage of that and my giants', vampires', and werewolves' darkvision to absolutely run amok in the enemy camps at night.  Bring along one of those 20th level cloud giant wizards to teleport circle us back and voila, the enemy will never sleep well again.  Don't forget those handy druids and clerics with their mass army-slaying spells.

That done, I would then have a series of Move Earths cast around the fortress to create a terrain that divides the enemy's ranks and leaves them open to aerial assaults in the form of either hails of arrows from the battlements, and/or spells from _Fly_ing casters.  I'm thinking deep, rolling ravines that lead out from the fortress that are about 50-100' wide.

Yet it's all for naught if a single caster manages to get close enough to cast Earthquake, Storm of Vengence, or Control Weather.  So invest in some of the Eye Golems from the BoEM2 and place them liberally in a grid around the fortress.  *Slay all Wildlife* in the area.  Our manticores and chimeras should always be on the wing in rotating shifts to take down any birds that happen to fly over.  Or use permenant Control Winds in the skies to keep flying creatures out entirely.

That still leaves the glaring weakness of underground assaults.  I'd have the high level clerics use a few Planar Ally spells to Call up an army of earth elementals or perferably Elder Xorns.   They can live in the ground beneath and surrounding the fortress, but are instructed to kill *anything* that is burrowing, and inform the clerics of the enemy's presence.  But I wouldn't envy the cost those clerics would pay for such a service.  

Use Sendings, Whispering Winds, and Messages when appropriate to keep up communication.  The upper lords and elite guards should be Mindlinked or Rary's Telepathic Bonded during sieges (assuming the enemy gets that far).

An army as huge as my enemy's can teleport circle right inside the city and no number of defenses can keep them out.  I pity cities in D&D for that very reason.  However, if I were to have agents who could speed word back the fortress should happen, my regular standing army could teleport circle into their midst and the battle would be joined in the streets without ranks or order.  No commander wants that, but such a situation favors the defender and I am confident that my forces could outmatch theirs in such a confrontation.  Not to mention Koben-Charrak ought to have its own city guard who could fend the intruders off for a few minutes.

A few Wishes might be able to foil enemy Commune and Augery spells if my cause is favored by my cleric's dark gods.

I'm sure there are innumerable things I have yet to think of, but these are the things that immidiately come to mind.  If I think of more, I'll post them for ya.  War in D&D is so overly complicated.  It's convoluted enough IRL, but bring magic into it and it still comes down to the same thing as high-level combat: Who strikes first (specifically, who wins init).  It may be an entirely poor idea to be on the defensive at all.  The plethora of options available to an army of these sizes is ridiculous and no defender can think of everything, much less adequately defend against it.  That said, good luck to you sir!


----------



## Femerus the Gnecro

*summon creatures are your friends*

In regards to the air force, the epic spell  dragon swarm (or some such thing) would work wonders.  10 large adult dragons could do a great deal of damage from their air with flyby attack and dragonbreath, while the inherant dragonfear would likely create vast amounts of chaos in the grunt troops.  

Large flights of dragons are a hellish force to be reckoned with.  

I also suggest setting up several (dozens) teleport circles inside the compound that lead to stragetic points outside the castle.  You could create a vast number of these, easily making pre-determined (and totally undetectable) kill zone.  Things to port in include iron golems, antimagic fields, delayed blast fireballs, darkness spells, silence spells, various symbol spells on piece of rock, LOTS of vampires, tactical nukes, etc.  You get the idea.  

-Femerus


----------



## mmadsen

> I really liked the creativity that my friend mmadsen inspired about a band of Goblins.



Thank you, SHARK.  I guess we covered "malicious ingenuity but not much else"; now we're looking at "malicious ingenuity and the kitchen sink"!


> Well, suppose that you are the commander of a powerful fortress.



"Powerful" is an understatement -- a 50th-level commander, a dozen 30th-level aides, two dozen 20th-level lords, oh, then the high-level Wang-Liang and Giants!


> You must be prepared for commando raids by groups of 15-40 powerful adventurers, as well as raids by enemy cavalry forces, and ultimately--a showdown with an invading Vallorean army composed of 350,000 Legionnaires!



I would think that the commander, his aides, and his lords could easily handle the "powerful adventurers" -- unless they're also all 20th- to 30th-level.  That's assuming he ready and waiting when the commando force strikes -- and with high-level Divinations, he should know all.

If our evil overlord is defending a mountain stronghold, I don't see mundane cavalry or heavy infantry having much effect.  Perhaps you can clarify what you expect them to do, even with siege engineers, against a great stone citadel atop sheer cliffs. 

On the other hand, I'm not sure what a mountain stronghold does for our evil army when the magical attacks hit.  (I was going to comment that you're just waiting for an Enlarged Cloudkill to wipe out your garrison and work its way into the mines below, but everyone's over 6 Hit Dice...)


> The fortress also features a magma lake deep underground, as well as extensive ruby, silver, and iron mines.



Hmm...how can this be used against our evil army?  Those damnable Vallorean wizards might summon elementals within our own mines... (I could've sworn elementals were easier to summon and more powerful near large bodies of their own element.  Can't find anything though...)


> The fortress also guards two large cities...



This seems to be the real issue.  We can't sit back and defend our mountain fortress.  We have to sally forth and defend our lands.


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Yes, mmadsen, those *damnable* Valloreans! I might also explain that this is an upcoming scenario for the group in one campaign I'm in. This group have characters that they have been playing for over three years of *Real* time. They were originally characters using the Rolemaster system, and when 3E came out, I decided to change systems, and we converted the characters over to 3E D&D. It was imperfect for quite awhile, but we have since started several other campaigns.

These player-characters are, now that Epic Level Handbook is out,--able to be properly worked up. These are characters that began the "Going Down The Road To Hell?" episode that I described years back, here in a huge thread. I think it was somewhere near 200 posts. Thus, as may be recalled, the evil kingdom ruled by a terrible Vampire King, Lord Mallenar, who is thousands of years old, and incredibly powerful--invaded several southern provinces in the Vallorean Empire. The party led and orchestrated a four-year campaign that led to the invading Galleran armies being defeated, and thrown out of Vallorea. The party then led the assault forces of the Vallorean Empire that began a great invasion of the Kingdom of Galleran. From that point on, the Valloreans proceeded to conquer perhaps 12 enemy cities, and a vast area of territory. Each city had a population of at least 500,000 people. Several had over one million people. The slaughter and death was everywhere.

Gradually, over the next ten years, the Valloreans have established a strong presence in the Occupied Territories. However, Lord Mallenar is a patient foe, and even now has led armies to recapture two cities that had been under Vallorean occupation for over four years. His power is growing, even as the Valloreans recruit more armies themselves.

The party are composed of characters that are between 30th and 60th level, with numerous cohorts and followers from 15th to 20th level. Thus, the Player-characters can certainly expect to be formidable. In addition, as some may recall, the Vallorean Legions are the best trained, most disciplined, and perhaps the best equipped army anywhere in the West. They have enchanted communication helmets, as well as excellent weapons and equipment. The Valloreans have also spent a great deal of energy, wealth, and resources into equipping the Legions with effective enchanted resources to allow for greater food, water, and healing supply. As many suggested in the time when the Vallorean Empire first invaded this evil, wicked land, the Valloreans and the various players have invested in detail for anti-vampire operations, as well as anti-lycanthrope forces. The Valloreans have special assault groups that specifically track and hunt down vampires wherever they are. Likewise, every Company in a Vallorean Legion have access to various supplies and equipment to detect, see, pursue, and fight invisible and undead attackers.

As for aerial forces, the Valloreans can expect to field units of Pegasus-cavalry, as well as Griffon-Assault troops. There are also enchanted Giant Eagles that have been known to land groups of flying commandos who often soften up the landing area with several Meteor Swarms, followed by globes of exploding Daylight. They also have enchanted globes of Holy Water, as well as specially prepared equipment.

Thus, here is I hope some more details.

This is great!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Lord Ben

At some point there will be a huge battle involving lots of epic spells, etc.  Most of the action will be spent leading up to this epic battle.  Where is the enemies wizards o' death and where are mine, etc.   I think softening up the enemy with small assults over a long period of time will be pretty useful.

Well, each Vampire can call forth 3d6 (call it 10) Wolves 1/day.  If there are 600 vampires you can realistically summon 6,000 wolves every day to attack and invade the enemy.   Different times from different directions, but still lots of harrasement every day. The Werewolves would make great wolf captains with their empathy.  Anyhow, a suicide force of 6000 wolves every day can wear down the rank and file - heck it can wear down anyone.  Granted, they'll make short work of them but it's still precious arrows, spells, and occasionally men that are wasted.  Even if they can fight Vampires I'm going to assume that their coffins are well protected, so that's even more forces that don't need to be as careful.

Lets say a group of 10th level wizards have secreted themselves in a hidden part of the fortress that's well guarded.   It's reasonable to assume they have some powerful ritual that they all need to concentrate to maintain.  None of them can memorize any spells for the day, but they all concentrate on maintaining the one spell.  They could affect weather over the whole of the nation, blizzards, massive fog clouds, rain, etc.  This should slow down enemy movement, and make it harder to communicate.  Even if they have communication equipment, if you only see 20 guys next to you because of heavy fog hearing a thousand wolves in the woods will be MUCH scarier.    A higher level group could use similiar spells to make the whole woods under the effect of an entangle spell, which would similiarly slow down the campaign.  

How high is your technology level?  Landmine type objects or spells might be nice.   Explosive runes triggered to go off when people pass or disturb and object (like a stone in the road) are nice.   

A repeating Symbol (the spell) of various effects on paths leading to town are nice.  

Personally I like massive spells that affect the whole region, it's my cup o' tea and it exists in my campaign.  Ritualistic magic is nice.  If it doesn't exist in your world then figureing out why it's happening (once you determine it's more then a control weather spell) and stopping it can become the focus of lots of nice campaign hooks.

Heavy use of illusions are good, sure the captains might have true seeing and be yelling orders, but the common soldier still sees an army of giants coming after him along with wolves and might break.  

If they have "unlimited" reinforements ruining the morale of the enemy might be your best bet.   

As far as defending the town, you said they're situated behind your citadel right?  Are they loyal to you?  You could always use the higher level monsters and humans to defend the Citadel with magic, etc.   Hide an elite group of your humans in the towns, if the enemies try to take the town then wait until they're in town and pull a Stalingrad on them and never let them out.  If the town is well defended use Hobgoblins in town to be the anvil, and a large portion of humans to sweep down from the moutain as the hammer.  They should be decimated.   

If you could do up a quick MS Paint map it would be helpful...


----------



## Volaran

I'm having a bit of trouble visualising that scale of combat, so detailed suggestions are out from me, but I thought occurs about the vampires.

If the Valloreans have been trained and prepared to take down vampires first, it would stand to reason that a fair amount of the higher level NPCs in the legions would be leading these special anti-vampire units.

Would it not make sense then, to switch up tactics and use these vampires for feints and as decoys?   Any Vallorean commanders and high level characters that can be kept away from engagements hunting down vampires that aren't crucial to the defense of the fortress would be beneficial to the defenders during attacks, right?


----------



## mmadsen

Let's look at the forces involved:


> The Valloreans are organized into thirty-five Legions, each having 10,000 Legionnaires. The Vallorean army will no doubt have plenty of supplies, engineers, extra equipment, and formidable magical support from enchanted war machines, powerful warrior-clerics, and dreaded wizards. The Valloreans can also expect to have various contingents of elves, dwarves, halflings, as well as other races and beings, including some ogres and small units of Cloud-Giants.



So the damnable Valloreans boast 35 legions of 10,000 men.  (And all those legions are at full strength?  Are these quasi-Roman legions or Xerxes-esque "immortals"?)

The legions are primarily heavy infantry with plenty of siege engineers.  Their auxiliaries include elves, dwarves, halflings, etc., and small numbers of Ogres and Cloud Giants.  More importantly, they have powerful Clerics and Wizards.  (In a later post, we learn that they have flying cavalry too -- not in great numbers though, I assume.)

On our side we have:







> (1) Commander: 50th level.
> (12) Elite Specialists: 30th level.
> (24) Lords: 20th level.
> (1) Wang-Liang/Half-Fiend General. (30th level)
> (2) Wang-Liang/Half-Fiend Lords. (20th level)
> (30) Wang-Liang/Half-Fiends (16th level)
> (300) Wang-Liangs (12th level)
> (38) Fire-Giants (20th level.)
> (24) Cloud-Giants (20th level.)
> (15) Chimera's
> (12) Manticore's
> (600) Vampires (6th-12th level)
> (880) Werewolves (4th-12th level)
> (2800) Ogres (under 10th level)
> (26,000) Hobgoblins (standard levels as organized).
> (100,000) Humans (minimum of 2nd level, majority Fighters).



So, against their 350,000 elite human heavy infantry and auxiliaries, we're supposed to pit our ~150,000 humans, hobgoblins, and assorted monsters.  Let's look at our strengths and weaknesses.

Our Wang-Liang are effectively Trolls that can turn invisible or disguise themselves.  That is, they're big, strong, and immune to most attacks (except fire and acid).  I'd love to be able to send Wang-Liang skirmishers against mundane heavy infantry.  They can do some damage, withdraw -- with some dead foes for "rations" -- come back fresh, and so on.  They can also ambush quite effectively, using their invisibility.  Perhaps they can even disguise themselves and infiltrate a camp that doesn't have much magical support.  We can't risk Fireballs and Flame Strikes though.  Disguised as mundane Ogres, the Wang-Liang might not draw so much fire.

The Vampires have many stengths and at least a few obvious weaknesses.  Vampires and their spawn are, of course, vulnerable to sunlight and to Clerical magic, but they have an amazing capacity for spawning more of their kind -- particularly in the short term, since they "spawn" quickly and won't run out of "food" in the time frame of this military campaign.  The two nearby cities might find their "noncombatants" (women and old men) quickly conscripted into the Midnight Legions.  Also, Vampires don't have to advertise their nature.  Armed as soldiers, adult, male Vampires should blend in fine (during a night attack).

The Werewolves, as lycanthropes, don't "spawn" as quickly and effectively as the Vampires.  Perhaps they can use their curse behind enemy lines or in guerrilla skirmishes -- the high-level Clerics can't be everywhere -- but they don't  end up with powerful slaves.  In the vast forests, they should make good scouts and quasi-cavalry, and they may have enough wolves there to command as auxiliaries.


----------



## Paragon

big freaking lasers.

Paragon


----------



## Zenon

Volaran said:
			
		

> *Would it not make sense then, to switch up tactics and use these vampires for feints and as decoys? *




I think this is exactly what a few of us are saying. If they are so "trained-n'-ingrained" with their "copyrighted anti-evil" tactics, time to pull some new tactical and strategic suprises on them!

Hit them on the mundane side, wear them away like sandpaper. Soon, the losses will start to add up!

Let us know how their conversion to the ELH goes. I remember the old Story Hour and would be interested to hear your comments onwhat their thought on the "new and improved" 3E high level characters look like.


----------



## CRG

One word.

Plague.

And not here at my own fortress -  back home where their wives and children are.  And their food, really.

Next, you've got alot of undead and the like.  They need protecting more than anything, their liability is the enemy's knowledge of them and how to defeat them.  Vampires are tough, but not that tough.

Sanctum spells (I think that's the feat).  Make it clear that (1) if we meet on the open field, its an even battle but (2) if you attack my home I'm stronger there.

Then, since most of the legions of the V's will not be high level folks, I like the epic "dire winter" (2d6 per round cold damage, 1000 foot radius).  Crap, if I'm 50th level we can maybe extend that radius abit, get some help casting and possibly change the elemental type.  Either way, legion killer.  Maybe even a few-legions-at-a-time killer.

Vampires and Werewolves, if equiped with the right anti-magic equipment, become quite tough to tackle.  Are any of those Vampires variant races?  Fire giants?  (etc.)

And, if I'm really rich, why don't I bribe some legionary commanders?  Seriously, what do they want?  Immortality?  Lichdom?  Cash?


----------



## Leopold

i agree with crg on this as i was about to say it.

Disease em out. The humanoids can't take too much and god knows the clerics will be busy once the enemies start launching rotting flesh from catapaults on the walls at them.


Idea: bury the undead hordes and place a contigency spell upon them. Wait till the valorean masses are upon them and then at night have the dead rise from the grave where the troops are and attack. Simultaneously harry the front with some of the troops from the fortress that come rushing out and have the magical being attacked by the vamps in gaseous forms.


Another note would be to infiltrate some doppelgangers or polymorphed wear folk into the midst. Sow confusion amongst the troops and take out their leaders. Spells like color spray, prismatic spray, gold dust, grease, confusion, ray of enfeeblement will knock out the front line fighters and make them easy to kill. ONce the front ranks are decimated bring in the undead clerics and raise the snot out of the fallen troops before the good guys get there. Send in those shock troops to continue the battle and if you are feeling lucky send in your remaining forces on the flanks to crush your opponent. If it's fairing badly let the undead take the brunt of it and retreat to the castle. You've already covered your retreat by the undead hordes who will continue to fight until destroyed.


Undead+spell+disease=win for these guys. coming out of the castle will shock the hell out of the attackers as it's completely unexpected but with your undead lying in wait they will be confused and disorganized.



Idea 2: If the defenders know of who is leading the charge out there what better tactic than to go after the leaders wives, children, parents, etc. Take a list of the troops and who's commanding. Send out some vampires, augury, scry, etc. Find out who their loved ones are and go after them. You can cast spells through a scrying pool so have at it. Distress the leaders, make them think that their battle is foolish and that their loved ones are at home dying while they are out here in this god forsaken land. Send in some forces to infilatrate and propogandize the end. Bribe some soliders to just start spouting doom if they attack and watch the morale fall like a lead brick. Even the mighties of the paladins will have a tough time if his god is telling him his faithful followers families are being slaughtered while he is leading the charge.

When they attack have illusions cast on trees showing the loved ones of the soliders hanging from the bows. Crucify the familes of them and put them along the path. Would it incense them? Possibly but it could also work as a deterrent.  Thrusting a contigent of undead soliders who were once valoreans shouting "Join us..Join us or you shall perish" in the wind would cause most low levels to run in fear. 

Unhallow the ground. Make it near high impossible to cast cure spells while in the area. Seal away acccess to the gods that they worship and nullfiy healing and augury. Allow no recon into my fortress for them to see. Summon troops to harry any airbore forces and drop bodies from up high into the masses of the troops with maggots and worms (the grey ones that burrow in your brain and kill you i forget the name). Spread contagion like above and keep hammering at the troops on the field day and night so they don't sleep with messages and nightmares.


----------



## Volaran

Another thought along the previous lines.

Are the Valloreans drawing all their troops from bordering provinces?  ie. Are the cities and towns behind them less defended than usual?

Vampires can move fairly fast.  If they're to be used as decoys, why not encourage the legions to leave and take care of things at home?  Or even better, if they do take the mountain fortress, will they be able to hold it and those cities with this Vampire Lord sending reinforcements from one side, and newborn vampires pouring out of their homeland from the other?


----------



## Kugar

Hi all.
That fast moving river is aweful tempting.  
Cleric or Druid Earh Elementals could quickly tunnel under potential battlefiels, and some creative walls of force could put spell casting support under water long enough to do some other damage.  
     If you are mean, you tunnel near your front door cap with a WoF and set up some archers in arrow slits above the water line.  Make the area near the 'trap' somewhat of a gully or better yet put some entrencments with a token resistance in them - Make sure one would look particuarly nice to put the commanders into.  Put an illusion of a great poticullus behind the WoF.
   After taken the entrenchemnts, the invading army will use them.  When the aggressing army reaches the door they will be stopped by the WoF which looks like it is protecting the archers.  Enemy casters dispell the WoF while under fire.   When the wall is dispelled, all the deep entrenchments are flooded and a couple of Walls of Iron cut off some commanders, and drowns some troops.

Kugar


----------



## Simon Magalis

Hey SHARK, first, WOW you do indeed come up with some cool stuff. Second... I would look at all of my forces, take those that gain no particular advantage from fighting in the fortress, and do the unexpected: ATTACK. This doesn't have to be an all out assault btw, it could be hundreds of undercover sorties, magically aided of course. You could use some Greater Rituals from Relics and Rituals if you have it. Also, imagine if there were enough evil druids (perhaps among the werewolves) so that when the invading army arrives, the very land and weather themselves attack. Another thing that seems likely is both several assassinations of higher-ups in the legions as well as possible counter strikes in the held lands behind them, perhaps drawing legions away from the main army and causing chaos. Hey, did I read that you are working on your PhD in English Lit? If so, COOL, I am hopefully beginning mine soon as well. Anyhow, good luck putting this awesome sounding battle together. I hope your players are grateful to have your volcano of a brain at the head of the table.


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Yaun-Ti wrote:
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Two questions: 

1) How am I feeding this massive garrison?
2) Do the Valloreans have more than 35 Legions or are they bringing everything they have against me?"
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Well, besides food in storage, there are grain, fruits, and vast herds of animals that the cities have access to. These resources are generally maintained to the north and east of the two cities.

You don't know precisely how many legions that the Vallorean Empire can field. They do have over 1,000,000 troops fighting in the Occupied Territories. How many more than that, that the Vallorean Emperor can summon up for the war effort, you do not know. The Vallorean Empire is a vast, and ancient empire that has ruled in glory and might for 2,500 years though. The population of the Vallorean Empire is thought to be upwards of, and perhaps more than, 200 million people. Thus, their might and power can be very great. They have been known to prosecute wars for over twenty years straight, never relenting, never retreating, until they have crushed all resistance. They have been fighting inside your kingdom for over eight years now as it is, with no signs of them going home. The Vallorean Emperor has decreed that your kingdom shall be crushed, and that all of the land here is now part of the Vallorean Empire.

In addition, you do know that the Vallorean armies in the north number approximately 600,000 troops, or some sixty legions.

Hope this helps!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## mmadsen

> I've got no one under my command who excels at tunnel fighting. Therefore the fortress is vulnerable to attack from below if the Valloreans can command large numbers of Dwarfs, Gnomes, etc.



While discussing Goblins defending their subterranean kingdom, Agback said:







> Depending on rock type, a miner with hand tools can make a passage wide enough for a person his size to walk through about one foot long per day of work. So figure a mile of 5'x5' tunnel as thirty-goblin-years labour invested in the digging alone, plus the cost of removing and disposing of nine thousand tonnes of spoil.
> 
> The maximum rate of tunneling is with two goblins side-by-side, three shifts per day. That will take five years to dig a mile of 5'x5' tunnel through moderately hard rock.



If those numbers are correct, I don't expect mundane miners to pose a threat.  Magical mining, on the other hand...


----------



## mmadsen

> My air force is pathetic. What have the Valloreans got in terms of air assault forces?



SHARK states:







> As for aerial forces, the Valloreans can expect to field units of Pegasus-cavalry, as well as Griffon-Assault troops. There are also enchanted Giant Eagles that have been known to land groups of flying commandos who often soften up the landing area with several Meteor Swarms, followed by globes of exploding Daylight. They also have enchanted globes of Holy Water, as well as specially prepared equipment.



I wouldn't think of them as air force so much as air cavalry -- the real threat comes when they hit the ground.  Anyway, one good batch of 50 Beast Bane arrows should show those Griffon assault troops a good time.  What are some good ack-ack, pardon, AAA spells?


----------



## mmadsen

> The problem with trying to have the Vampires infiltrate the Valloreans is that the Valloreans have too much experience fighting them in SHARK's world. They same with the Were-creatures.



True, Zenon.  As SHARK later stated:







> The Valloreans have special assault groups that specifically track and hunt down vampires wherever they are. Likewise, every Company in a Vallorean Legion have access to various supplies and equipment to detect, see, pursue, and fight invisible and undead attackers.



I'd like a few more specifics, m'self.  Is it hopeless to send Vampires (in small groups or _en masse_) at the legions?  Or it simply unlikely that they'll sneak in, Dominate everyone, and spawn more Vampires?


> Use of real-time intelligence to draw an enemy force into a kill zone. The kill zones would not be pre-determined, but established to react to enemy movements. There is too much area to try to defend.



What would a "kill zone" look like though?


> I would place at least one agent in each [small settlement] armed with a single use magic item of Whispering Wind.



Sounds reasonable.


> I would then utilize the vampires to turn anything in the armies path into a vampire spawn (if less than 5th level) or true vampire (if higher level). Lycanthropes take too long to be able to control their powers to create from scratch.



It certainly seem like 4-HD Vampire Spawn should be a whole lot tougher than 1-HD Commoners.


> While harrassing enemy supply lines, destroy beasts of burden and infect as many soldiers with lycanthopy and vampirism as possible. Use hit and run tactics. This will generate a strain upon enemy resouces (clerical) to heal/cure troops.



How easy is it to hit and run with epic-level adventurers chasing you down?  It seems like that changes the rules of engagement a bit. 


> If they choose to use adventurer types against the stronghold, an RDF of high level will be kept on alert for this eventuality. The object will be to allow entry of the adventurers, then cutoff retreat, envelop and overcome. Care must be taken to insure being able to cutoff retreat by teleport, etherial and astral travel, etc. Planar allies can be gathered to watch, report incursions, and then cut of escapes. Strategic areas in the stronghold should be warded to provide silent alarms to incursions (things like gatehouses, storerooms, etc.)



Figuring out the logistics of all that sounds like a full-time job.  What are the standard anti-teleport procedures?


> Overall, I would suggest an offensive strategy instead of a defensive one.



With so much magical mobility and not much magical defense, that does sound like the way to go.


----------



## mmadsen

> The party are composed of characters that are between 30th and 60th level, with numerous cohorts and followers from 15th to 20th level.



Do they need the Vallorean legions?  I'm only being slightly facetious.  What's an example of what a 60th-level character can do?  It sounds like he could just choose to wipe out a few thousand enemies with a sweep of his hand.  And what happens when he goes up against his 50th-level enemy?


----------



## Zenon

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *What would a "kill zone" look like though?*




That's hard to say. You won't be able to set up anything ahead of time, you have to use what's available on the fly. I spoke in generalities, but I'm fairly sure SHARK is well versed/familiar with the old "improvise, adapt, overcome" method of doing things and is much more well-versed in his world than I am! 



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *How easy is it to hit and run with epic-level adventurers chasing you down?  It seems like that changes the rules of engagement a bit. *




Well, yes and no. Use that "overconfidence" against them. Hit and Run with the "cheese" to a trap, then let their epic-level adventurers walk into an epic-level ambush, using your own epic-level forces.



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Figuring out the logistics of all that sounds like a full-time job.  What are the standard anti-teleport procedures?*




Stronghold Builder's Guidebook goes into some detail about magical defenses for fortresses. I figured I leave the details to SHARK. The key is, you want them to check in, but not check out, just like a Roach Motel. Most raids do not carry the supplies etc, to maintain a long/extended battle (think Black Hawk Down for example. They went in overconfident and underprepared.). If you can cut off that force, you can eventually wear them down baring a miracle (no, not the spell...but if you're thinking the spell remember you have spells like that on your side to. Use a Miracle to cancel a Miracle!).



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *With so much magical mobility and not much magical defense, that does sound like the way to go. *




That's the first thing that came to my mind. If you have static defenses and choose to let the enemy pick the time and place of engagement, you will risk pitting a part of your force (because they are spread out to cover everything) against a concentrated, powerful, prepared enemy group. It would be better to act first and do this to them rather than wait for them to do it to you.


----------



## Zenon

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Do they need the Vallorean legions?  I'm only being slightly facetious.  What's an example of what a 60th-level character can do?  It sounds like he could just choose to wipe out a few thousand enemies with a sweep of his hand.  And what happens when he goes up against his 50th-level enemy? *




Heh, I remember once when SHARK posted a list of his PC and their cohorts with their rough levels in D&D. It was impressive (60's to 30's for levels, and it was a fair sized list).

The thing about SHARKS workld is that it is truly "Epic" and larger-than-life, based on its Rolemaster beginnings. But epic good guys have epic bad guys to oppose them in SHARK's world and sweeping storylines to move them along.

That's why I'm curious to see what he and his players have to say about their new "conversions" to the ELH.


----------



## mmadsen

> The Valloreans will not be merciful, nor will they spare the city populations. Anything that seems tainted and wicked in whatever manner, can be expected to be put to the sword, or burned at the stake. Be prepared for ferocious, relentless, and absolutely ruthless attacks by the Valloreans.
> ...
> The party then led the assault forces of the Vallorean Empire that began a great invasion of the Kingdom of Galleran. From that point on, the Valloreans proceeded to conquer perhaps 12 enemy cities, and a vast area of territory. Each city had a population of at least 500,000 people. Several had over one million people. The slaughter and death was everywhere.



It would seem that the people of our cities should expect to be put to the sword.  But I, as their undying ruler, offer a better alternative: Immortality in the Midnight Legions!

More seriously, it seems that the city folk and nearby farmers expect a massive invasion, and expect no quarter.  They should be willing to scorch the earth, raze their villages and any buildings outside the city walls, conscript soldiers, and so on.

If they know that their Vampires are their saviors, perhaps the whole city walks around at night in white makeup.  Or maybe they volunteer for the, ahem, blood drive.  Or they can dig crypts for their Vampires -- and false crypts to confuse special-forces teams of enemy adventurers.


----------



## Wicht

I'll put in my vote for softening up the enemy with a couple of good old fashioned plagues first.  Find some infected rats and have the vampires send them into the enemy camp.  Poison the food with mild constitution lowering drugs to weaken the enemies tolerance to disease.  

Next bury ghouls in fields (they won't suffocate) as an undead type mine field.  When the enemy walks over, the ghouls attack from below.  Their paralyzation will disrupt formations and weaken the enemy allowing fresh hobgoblin and human troops to come in and complete the slaughter.  Allow the newly dead to rise as ghouls and you have a larger ghoul force.  

Cast desecrate over the whole region so that your undead are stronger.


----------



## mmadsen

*Re: Re: How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?*

Some more thoughts on our forces:


> Our Wang-Liang are effectively Trolls that can turn invisible or disguise themselves.



Further, our Half-Fiend Wang-Liang, like Half-Fiend Trolls, resist acid and fire, normally their two great vulnerabilities.  As long as they don't face the Champions of Vallorea, they can cut down legions with impunity -- and eat them.


> They can also ambush quite effectively, using their invisibility.



I don't know the Vallorean countermeasures, but I suspect their scouts and sentries can see through illusions and can spot invisible enemies.  This makes it hard to pull off a true ambush or infiltration.  On the other hand, if a wave of "Ogres" attacks, it doesn't matter that a sentry or two recognizes a Wang-Liang for every ten Ogres; it won't occur to the Vallorean rank and file to deploy their limited acid and fire weapons on "Ogres".



> The Vampires have many stengths and at least a few obvious weaknesses.



One serious limitation for the Vampires is that, although they're quite mobile -- they can cover 9 miles in two hours -- they can only sortie from an "airbase" with their coffins.  They can't penetrate enemy territory.  As long as they're within 9 miles of that base though, they're practically impossible to kill -- gaseous form gets them back to safety.  I assume they'll want to sortie from the Mountain Citadel, but a few hidden crypts in the woods and in town might allow them to strike unexpectedly and spy more effectively -- but the legions' Vampire Hunters will most likely track them back to those crypts and clear them out in daylight.

Again, the two nearby cities might find their "noncombatants" (women and old men) quickly conscripted into the Midnight Legions.

As with the Wang-Liang disguised as Ogres, Vampires don't have to advertise their nature.  Armed as soldiers, adult, male Vampires should blend in fine (during a night attack).



> In the vast forests, [Werewolves] should make good scouts and quasi-cavalry, and they may have enough wolves there to command as auxiliaries.



Also, as quasi-cavalry who can forage well -- especially in woods, farmland, and human villages -- the Werewolves can work behind enemy lines.  The legions can't reasonably track down wolves, and if they can draw away the Pegasus and Griffon units, so much the better; the legions lose their eyes in the sky.


----------



## Brisk-sg

With the combined might of our wizards, Clerics, and Druids, we could likely cast at least 1 of every spell in the PHB, FRCS, MoF, and all of the splat books at the exact same time, in the exact same direction.  Not sure what that would do, but it would be messy I am sure.

*Just an Odd thought*

-Josh


----------



## mmadsen

> You must be prepared for commando raids by groups of 15-40 powerful adventurers, as well as raids by enemy cavalry forces, and ultimately--a showdown with an invading Vallorean army composed of 350,000 Legionnaires!



The more I think about it, the more I realize that we're presented with two very different challenges: defend ourselves against the Champions of Vallorea, and defend ourselves against the  Vallorean Legions.

The Champions of Vallorea are a commando force, but they aren't simply super-mobile infiltrators; they're also the air support, satellite intelligence, recon, heavy artillery, and armor of Vallorea all rolled into one.  They can magically appear anywhere, they can magically spy on anyone anywhere, and they can bring the pain when they show up.

The Vallorean Legions, on the other hand, may have magical support, but they're a conventional force.  To get from Point A to Point B, they need to hoof it.  To fight and win, they need to arrive _en masse_.

I can _grok_ the legions, but dealing with dozens of epic-level heroes can get...mind-bending.


----------



## Volaran

Indeed.  Perhaps if SHARK were to give us a rundown on these Champions.  No doubt they're well enough known that their presence on the battlefield would warrent preparation as well.

Classes, levels, known battle tactics?


----------



## Agback

Zenon said:
			
		

> *A contingent of 12th to 16th level fiends can teleport in, decimate 100 troops and quickly leave with impunity, do so.*




A contingent of 12th to 16th level fiends ought to be able to kill more than 10 troops.

Or had you forgotten that 'decimate' means 'kill 10% of'?

Regards,


Agback


----------



## Crowe9107

A high level parties transportation abilities can really mess up the best laid of plans. Here are some things I have come up with.

_Teleportation:_ Given that the majority of your forces are Lawful Evil, Blanketing the Fortress Area with Forbiddance (preferrably a Tenacious Forbiddance so that even it is dispelled it comes back) should give the Forces of Niceness quite a headache, not only blocking any sort of dimensional travel into the fortress, but really boning any low-level good types. It should be noted that this effect is 2-way, ALL dimensional travel is blocked, unless you have a password, for operational security, this password should given only the Commander (for the climatic escape), and teleport and summoning ops should be staged outside of the Forbiddance Zone. Relying on this alone is probably not good enough (or rather smart enough), and all structures should have lead lined walls to prevent scrying (can't TP into an unknown area), which is helpful in and of itself.

_Flying:_ It would appear the forces of goodness will have aerial superiority. Given the (relatively) low hit dice and will saves of hippogriffs and pegasi, I would think stun effects could be wonderfully effective, symbols of stunning, heightened hypnotic patterns, colorsprays, rainbow patterns, sleep, all of these could take mount or rider for a fatal plummet. Magic missiles make for wonderful flak fire, and epic archers can potentially bring down mounts by the score. Conventional Archers generally have a range advantage on casters, combined with Ballista's  could make any sort of air insertion pretty rough. A well placed hurricane or such can disrupt an air attack. In any case, make sure AA assets have plenty of cover to hide behind, as Niceness will probably try to soften up  LZ and AA sites with spells, mounted archers, dragons, spelljammers and whatever else they can get their goody goody hands on. Also, do not overlook conventional obstacles to hamper landing attempts, caltrops, spikes, spires, spears, dragons teeth (stone pyramids), brambles, barbed wire, obelisks, and anything you think of to disrupt spaces open enough for a large creature to land will be helpful. A key ingredient to any AA network is detection, you can't fight something if you don't know it is inbound, so make sure you are on the ball with intel (keep close tabs on air assets), scrying, patrols (invisible stalkers and air elementals make great air guards, and your chimera and manticore forces can perfom combat air patrol).

More to come,

Carl Rowe


----------



## Broken Fang

Hey Shark...some quick thoughts:

1.  What does the surrounding countryside look like in regards to the Vallorians (sp?) towns/cities?  Use some teleporting baddies to hit them in their cities...either forcing them to pull back some of their troops or pull them from somewhere else.

2.  Look for other allies.  They probably have more enemies...try to get them to push the attack in other areas.  Open up more fronts for them to have to worry about.

3.  Get your high level (above 20th) level Wizards and Clerics to start summoning help!  Get lots of nasty demons/devils/etc. to smash into the command tents, supplies, etc.  Go after supply depots.

4.  After working on the supplies sacrifice one of the cities...maybe the furthest away.  I know your supposed to hold it but give it up non-the-less.  Make sure the food/water has been poisoned or diseased (hopefully someway that is difficult to detect)?

5.  Use forbidence or Hollow?  Whichever spell it is that allows you to put in place one other spell for a year...dimensional anchor or something large areas of your fortress to prevent intruders from dimension dooring/teleporting in.  Have a mighty secure area for you to stage teleports from.

6.  How much time do you have to prepare?  How many Wizards do you have and how many 4th+ level spells can they throw together a day?  You could start polymorphing your generic human troops into hill giants or something.  If I were a joe blow human knowing I'm going to war I'd take the spell if it were to increase my chances of survival.  Plus if we lose I'm probably dead anyway...if we win it could get reversed. 

7. High level Druid is a must.

I'll try to think of more later.  But have to go play with the kids.  Later.


----------



## Broken Fang

#5 - had to look up...its Hallow and there are a number of good spells that can be attached to it, but I was thinking dimensional anchor.


----------



## Agback

SHARK said:
			
		

> *Well, suppose that you are the commander of a powerful fortress. How would you develop it's defenses? You must be prepared for commando raids by groups of 15-40 powerful adventurers, as well as raids by enemy cavalry forces, and ultimately--a showdown with an invading Vallorean army composed of 350,000 Legionnaires!
> 
> The Valloreans are organized into thirty-five Legions, each having 10,000 Legionnaires. The Vallorean army will no doubt have plenty of supplies, engineers, extra equipment, and formidable magical support from enchanted war machines, powerful warrior-clerics, and dreaded wizards. The Valloreans can also expect to have various contingents of elves, dwarves, halflings, as well as other races and beings, including some ogres and small units of Cloud-Giants.*




_Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics._

That concentration of troops cannot possibly survive by foraging, but I'll scorch the earth just in case. Then, 350,000 legionaires will require a minimum of 700,000 pounds (over 312 tons) of food per day, probably more. (If I poison a few wells and rivers they'll need 3,500,000 pounds of water per day as well). And that's without allowing for the auxiliaries and camp followers. Or munitions, for that matter.

Before the Valloreans can attack they are going to assemble huge stockpiles of food. Grain silos explode very nicely once you set them on fire, and _Bacillus botulinus_ flourishes nicely in meat and preserved vegetables.

One day's supplies for the legionnaires alone is about sixty waggon-loads. And even along roads waggons move only about eight miles per day. Once the Vallorean army is 100 miles from its food dumps that means a 25-day round trip for each waggon: they will need 1500 waggons, teams of oxen or mules, drivers: plus supplies for all that livestock. How well can they defend all those waggons and bullocks on the open road?

I abandon my fortress, fall back before the advancing Vallorean army, scorching the earth as I go. My supply lines get shorter and shorter, his get longer and longer. I send werewolves and high-level parties to destroy his supplies and kill his mules and bullocks. Eventually his supply fails. I wait for his troops to get hungry, and then counter-attack.

That's how Wellington beat Napoleon's marshals in Spain, and how Kutuzov beat Napoleon himself in Russia.


ECONOMIC WARFARE AGAINST WIZARDS AND CLERICS

If is important to prevent enemy spellcasters from taking advantage of the months leading up to the assault to stock up on scrolls, potions,  magical weapons, and wondrous items. So we stage surprise commando attacks against these people and their workshops and chapels. We raid stockpiles of potions, scrolls, wands, and magical arrows. We make nuisance attacks so that if thse things be distributed widely the sergeants and medics will use them up before the main event (troops are lavish in their use of _cure_ potions, _restorations_, _cure disease_s in 'peace'time and in the homeland). It might well be a good idea to concentrate on frightfulness in these raids to sap enemy _morale_.

Think of assassinating clerics as being like submarine warfare against Britain.

The enemy will be depending heavily on clerics to deal with diseases, level drains, and so forth. But he can't have many who can cast _restoration_, _resurrection_, and the like. We ought to identify and target those who can. A program of assassinations against high-level clerics should cut down drastically on the enemy's ability to cast _Resurrection_, _Restoration_, _Remove Curse_, &c.. Then that remaining ability can be overwhelmed by a broad campaign of assassinations, level drains, and infection with vampirism, lycanthropy, and other diseases throughout enemy territory. If we can pull this off, the enemy is going to have to let some important people lose levels, lose some almost-important people altogether, and kill a few of his own people himself. With any luck we can make a substantial numbe of his clerics themselves died permanently or for the duration, or lose enough levels that they can't cast the crucial spells. Once you can shake his people's confidence in being raised, restored, and cured or disease, having their limbs regrown you can produce the impression that invading your country will be (for the troops involved) worse than death.


OTHER THOUGHTS

It is probably important to our plan of campaign to let the enemy concentrate his army so that we can starve it without destroying too much of our own territory. But if we wanted to keep it spread out we could do so by threatening raids-in-force over scattered territories and by fomenting rebellions. Our ideal would probably be to let him concentrate the grunts but force him to spread out the high-level stiffeners. We might accomplish this by staging widespread raids of a nature that high-level heros are needed to cope with them, but of which grunts are of little use. Invasions by pairs and trios of vampire-spawn sound like about the right speed.

The high mobility of some of our forces and their high destructive output makes it attractive to think in terms of attacking mills, bridges, ships, irrigation and drainage canals, and other vital assets. It ought also to be possible to spread murrains among his livestock, blights in his crops, etc. Cut down his agricultural surplus and watch his whole empire fall apart.

If we have members of the right races among our people, it might be possible to use their weakness against the enemy. Starving troops, anybody's starving troops, will rob and kill peasants. And the enemy paladins, being racist pigs, probably wouldn't might butchering goblin and orc peasants. But if we leave a few human or halfing peasants with food in the scorched zone it might be possible to induce fighting between enemy paladins and his general troops.

As always, plan to make fighting horrific and surrender attractive. If any enemy troops surrender they ought to be disarmed, given a meal, lectured on how wicked they are to invade their neighbours' country, held overnight, and then released unharmed to eat enemy supplies and to spread the news that their comrades need not fight to the death, fate worse than death, etc. On the other hand, it is probably a good idea to tell our troops that the enemy are merciless racists intent on exterminating our kind, and that nothing can be hoped for by surrendering.

Regards,


Agback


----------



## Zenon

*Re: Re: How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?*



			
				Agback said:
			
		

> *A contingent of 12th to 16th level fiends ought to be able to kill more than 10 troops.
> 
> Or had you forgotten that 'decimate' means 'kill 10% of'?*




First of all, the quote says 100, not 10. Or hadn't you read it?

And secondly, I am using the word 'decimate' as in the 3b definition from Webster's dictionary:



> Main Entry: dec·i·mate
> Pronunciation: 'de-s&-"mAt
> Function: transitive verb
> Inflected Form(s): -mat·ed; -mat·ing
> Etymology: Latin decimatus, past participle of decimare, from decimus tenth, from decem ten
> Date: 1660
> 1 : to select by lot and kill every tenth man of
> 2 : to exact a tax of 10 percent from <poor as a decimated Cavalier -- John Dryden>
> 3 a : to reduce drastically especially in number <cholera decimated the population> b : to destroy a large part of <firebombs decimated large sections of the city>




The example that I'm making is that you can apply a huge concentration of force, pop in and wipe out 100 troops with ease (and most likely do it in a round or two) and be gone before their high level quick reaction forces can reply.

Do this twice per day per force if possible, at random times.

This incurs losses of 200 men a day, 1400 a week, 5600 a month _per force like this you send out_.

If you can field ten forces like this, then the losses equal 56,000 men a month, approximately 6% of the legion. With the unit losses spread out, the legion will begin to lose coheision and coordination. Morale will plummet as each man wonders when he'll be next. And that's just after one month of this. Six months would be around 40% losses, which I believe is considered catastrophic losses by most armies (?). If the timeframe is too long, up the amount of forces used or the number of times per day they are sent out. This is in return for next to no losses in return. Granted, there is always the chance to accidentally run into a high level person who many inflict a loss or two in the time you're on target.



			
				Agback said:
			
		

> *Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.*




Very true.



			
				Agback said:
			
		

> *Think of assassinating clerics as being like submarine warfare against Britain.*




I assume you mean "unrestricted submarine warfare" against merchant shipping, which brought Britian to it's knees in WWI, and almost took them out of the war due to it's effects.



			
				Agback said:
			
		

> *As always, plan to make fighting horrific and surrender attractive. If any enemy troops surrender they ought to be disarmed, given a meal, lectured on how wicked they are to invade their neighbours' country, held overnight, and then released unharmed to eat enemy supplies and to spread the news that their comrades need not fight to the death, fate worse than death, etc. On the other hand, it is probably a good idea to tell our troops that the enemy are merciless racists intent on exterminating our kind, and that nothing can be hoped for by surrendering.*




This one is so nice that I wish I thought of it! The Valloreans wouldn't believe that their own troops were treated nicely and released unharmed! They'd expend so many resources attempting to determine what was done and if they could trust these troops again....the only thing you might want to add to this is some that have been "tampered with", just to throw suspicion on the whole lot of them. The massive waste of manpower guarding, analyzing, etc would be worth it. They also wouldn't be able to "trust" them in battle. Oh, that's beautiful!

My hat is off to you, sir!


----------



## Leopold

SHARK any update?


----------



## Numion

As the commander I'd prepare ... NOTHING. But as the legions come I'd just say "Chill, I'll handle this CRAP". Guitar would start to wail in the background, HARD ... oops, wrong boards. 

About the logistics: Wouldn't vallorean clerics be able to _Create Food and Water_? Support would be very hard if done, as someone said, with 1500 wagons. 

Very expensive solution could be either bags of holding, or the teleportation rings.


----------



## Twinswords

Why not the druid spell epedemic. 9th level masters of the wild. use a couple of dominated subject walking around the camps. and then simply assinate the clerics. Use blinding fever and you will have a blind army in no time.


----------



## Zenon

Numion said:
			
		

> *About the logistics: Wouldn't vallorean clerics be able to Create Food and Water? Support would be very hard if done, as someone said, with 1500 wagons.
> 
> Very expensive solution could be either bags of holding, or the teleportation rings. *




The problem with Create Food & Water is this:



> From the SRD:
> 
> Create Food and Water
> 
> Conjuration (Creation)
> Level: Clr 3
> Components: V, S
> Casting Time: 10 minutes
> Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
> Effect: Food and water to sustain three humans or one horse/level for 1 day
> Duration: 24 hours (see text)
> Saving Throw: None
> Spell Resistance: No
> 
> The food that this spell creates is simple fare of the character's choice—highly nourishing, if rather bland. The food decays and becomes inedible within 24 hours, although it can be kept fresh for another 24 hours by casting a purify food and water spell on it. The water created by this spell is just like clean rain water. The water doesn’t go bad as the food does.




A 20 level cleric can produce food for 60 men for one day with this. At that rate, it will need 5833 of these 3rd level clerical spells cast by 20th level casters to produce enough provisions to feed an army of 350,000 men, not counting any normal mounts. If a 20th level cleric utilized all slots 3rd level and all the way up to his 9th level slots (approx a total of 31 slots) simply for multiples of that spell, it would take around 188 20th lvl clerics to do this. They would expend every spell of higher than 2nd level, except for domain spells.

Purify Food & Drink suffers from the same problem:



> From the SRD:
> 
> Purify Food and Drink
> 
> Universal
> Level: Clr 0, Drd 0
> Components: V, S
> Casting Time: 1 action
> Range: 10 ft.
> Target: 1 cu. ft./level of contaminated food and water
> Duration: Instantaneous
> Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
> Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
> 
> This spell makes spoiled, rotten, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated food and water pure and suitable for eating and drinking. This spell does not prevent subsequent natural decay or spoilage. Unholy water and similar food and drink of significance is spoiled by purify food and drink, but the spell has no effect on creatures of any type nor upon magic potions.
> 
> Note: Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds.




So a 20th lvl caster can purify a 5'x4'x1' volume. Figure at least that a wagon is 5' long, 4' wide and 4' high. This requires 4 of his 0 level spells to purify 1 wagon. (I forget how many wagons the original poster stated to support the army for one day).


----------



## mmadsen

*Re: Re: How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?*



> Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.



While I basically agree, I don't know how to tackle the topic of logistics in SHARK's world.  I know from past posts that his legions rely on magic packs of endless MREs (rations).  How do you deal with that?  And his warrior priests can systematically create food and water.


> I abandon my fortress, fall back before the advancing Vallorean army, scorching the earth as I go. My supply lines get shorter and shorter, his get longer and longer. I send werewolves and high-level parties to destroy his supplies and kill his mules and bullocks. Eventually his supply fails. I wait for his troops to get hungry, and then counter-attack.



Aside from the issue of whether magically supplied troops need mundane supply lines or not, we're under orders to hold this strongpoint while our allies mass in the North and Northeast.


> If is important to prevent enemy spellcasters from taking advantage of the months leading up to the assault to stock up on scrolls, potions,  magical weapons, and wondrous items.



Interesting point.  Considering just how much time and money goes into producing magic items, a few magical commando raids with a few castings of Mordenkainen's Disjunction should cripple the Vallorean war effort.  Have the Valloreans faced this before?  If not, maybe they're not ready for it.


> The enemy will be depending heavily on clerics to deal with diseases, level drains, and so forth. But he can't have many who can cast _restoration_, _resurrection_, and the like.



Restoration's 4th level.  Used to fighting Vampire hordes, the oh-so-magical Valloreans might very well be cranking out Wands of Restoration.  (At 21,000 gp a pop though, how many can they reasonably have?)


> A program of assassinations against high-level clerics should cut down drastically on the enemy's ability to cast _Resurrection_, _Restoration_, _Remove Curse_, &c..



True, but aren't these high-level clerics (a) hard to kill, and (b) within the protective confines of forts magically warded against evil, teleporting assassins?


----------



## mmadsen

To give a better feel for what SHARK's Vallorean legions can do, I decided to quote a snippet from one of his posts to the Military Tactics thread:


> It shouldn't be far-fetched to assume that armies would routinely deploy invisible, hasted Rogues. Or Rangers. And so on. Flying columns of cavalry, assault wizards, as well as even normal horses routinely augmented with magic horseshoes or haste, and so on. Magic communications would vastly change the dynamics of military operations. The side who had better command and control over their forces would have the advantage over the side who didn't.
> 
> Battlefield healing and medical evacuation would be far superior. Even if say, there isn't enough clerics to instantly heal everyone. So what? You may very well have hasted, multi-legged medical golems that can load and carry wounded soldiers to field hospitals where surgeons can begin work on them. While riding inside this thing, healing gas would be emitted into the chamber to keep the dying character stable. These battlefield hospitals could greatly enhance the disease resistance, poison resistance, and wound recovery of normal soldiers without the direct actions of powerful clerics. These centers could do so with magical equipment and the presence of trained physicians, surgeons, and healers. Think of how these developments alone could change the way and consequences of warfare. Again, though, these kinds of developments would most likely come along with urbanized, wealthy, sophisticated societies. Less organized realms would not have the power, resources, organization, or coordination to have such refinements. Imagine these differences being in stark contrast to a confederation of Orc tribes waging war against a powerful, sophisticated human kingdom.


----------



## spunky_mutters

This reminds me of the march of the furry red guys from Nine Princes in Amber. They start with about that number (350,000) and they only have a few thousand left by the time they get to the foot of Kolvir. I think you need to take your cue from there. Use divination to keep an eye on the enemy, and start pounding them ASAP. 

If you can't reach them from home, send highly mobile (able to magically retreat) strike forces to ravage their normals with magic and get out. Do it day after day. Fight them with weather, terrain, etc. Lay nasty traps in the form of plagues, beasts, etc. in their path. You want to keep your best guys at home to defend against the heroes, as they can show up any time. But you have a lot of forces at your disposal to make sure that their army never reaches you.

As for the heroes, you should track them with divinations, as well. Use a one-two-three punch on them. Hit them with something that looks tough to drain spells, then follow up with something that is tough. When they stop to rest, hit them with something really tough. Always pick inopportune times/locations that work to the advantage of your troops. 

If they teleport out. Find where they went and prepare a surprise for the next time the retreat there.

Remember, you're evil AND smart.


----------



## Ace

I think there is no real way to stop the Valloreans in the long run. No mtter what you do they will keep coming and they have a huge amount of resources at their disposal. 

Most importantly they have the will to use them and to spend however many men it takes

Thats being said I think an unorthodox strategy is the only way to carry this battle.


What I would do is .....

Use your strategic weapons first--- 

 While I don't have the Epic Level Handbook I do know that the spell seed system allows for some awesome spells.

After I defended my forces to the max my first spell would be "Rain of Disjunction" some kind of nasty ultra wide are Mordenkianens Disjunction 

I would follow this up with a nasty wise area "spell forgetting" attack then a rain of negative energy .

Scout them out, if they are really weak hit them hard and fast. If it wasn't as effective as you might like move to the next stage

The next stage would be a short guerilla style campaign . I would begin with a  a massive buff up of my vampires. I wan't them to be buffed enough to operate during the day.

Their job would be force multiplication. Each vampire should raise some of its own kind as spawn.

 Well placed the negative rain will turn a  part of the army into undead, wights IIRC use up more clerical resources and heal your troops.

My next attack cycle--- Harrasing and Skirmish warfare against supplies, spellcasters and assorted  weak groups.

Hit them hard and run away

Follow up with more Disjunction spells, acidic and thermal rains and any other nasty ultra wide area spell you can come up with. 

I suspect by this time the Valoreans will have adapted to your tactics---

No problem-- Switch off to summoned monsters, hoards and hoards of them.  Swarm of Dragons and afterward as many undead as you can muster.

After that plague charms-- Just a little enchantment that suggests "Everyone not in you unit may be a monster in disguise" or if possible "Everyone but your mates are monsters-- kill them and you can live in honor"

Attack the enemies mind and morale. Sap his will to fight

Its a little like a Star Trek, keep rotating the shield frequency  if the enemy adapts---

In this case keep changing tactics

After the long slog, the harrasing attacks, low rations ,the clerical casultys and undead attacks even the mighty legion should be a little weaker. 

Offer a parlay-- send out a weak human troop or two to deliver a message

Leave now and we will call of the attack--

When they don't. and you know the Valloreans won't especially not after what you did to them hit with something else you haven't tried before---

Its dicey at this point but you have a 25% of winning---

As for the Ultra High Levels--- Well they expend the full battle load out of magic on the enemies special troops. Do this  early on than run.

The Hobgoblins and the humans are replacable in time and eventually you will be able to hit deep into the Empire for a little payback.

<WHEW>

Oh I had a question SHARK

Did you convert directly over to 3e from Rolemaster?

I noticed you had 50th level characters out there. Those levels don't convert 1-1.

Two Rolemaster levela are about equal to one 3e level

If the Evil leader dude is 50th level that means he was about a hundred in Rolemaster OUCH!


----------



## mmadsen

*Re: Re: How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?*



> If any enemy troops surrender they ought to be disarmed, given a meal, lectured on how wicked they are to invade their neighbours' country, held overnight, and then released unharmed to eat enemy supplies and to spread the news that their comrades need not fight to the death, fate worse than death, etc.



A related gambit, one that works in D&D despite most magic, is to provide deserters and POWs with false intelligence before they march to the enemy.  If the unsophisticated POWs see frost giants marching around, that's what they'll report to the Vallorean Inquisition.  They don't know those giants were illusions.


----------



## mmadsen

*Standard High-Level Magic vs. High-Level Magic Tactics*

SHARK's scenario here is just one specific instance of a much broader, more general problem: how do high-level characters with high-level magic deal with one another?  It all becomes so far removed from reality, that the tactics aren't very intuitive.  I'm sure someone's given this a lot of thought though, so what are some standard tactics for dealing with high-level enemies?

Teleport, for instance, removes the concept of distance -- and the concept of intervening space.  How do you defend against someone who can literally appear _anywhere_ -- without having to pass through any of your armies, any of your city walls, etc.?  Can you defend your entire nation?  I don't see how.

One limited counter to Teleport is Forbiddance.  It keeps out anyone of the wrong alignment, and it prevents planar travel into the area (60-ft cube/level) -- and it's permanent.  It doesn't keep people from teleporting right next to your fortress, but it's a start.

I suppose Dimensional Anchor can ruin a hit-and-run teleporter's day -- but what are the odds you have someone with a Dimensional Anchor ready when the magic commandos arrive?  And is it worth anything if you don't have a locally superior force?

Anyway, those are some of the issues with teleporting.  I haven't even touched on scrying.


----------



## Broken Fang

Not that it helps much but Hallow is 10' radius a level and places one spell in that area for 1 year...dimensional anchor is one of the spells that can be used with it.  You might need a bunch of them, but I'm thinking it would help...better them right next to it than somewhere in it.


----------



## Johno

Bringing 350,000 men through mountainous terrain has got to be a major hassle... especially when you can bring half the mountain down on them with a well placed Disintegrate, causing a landslide.

I wouldn't use the majority of the vampires against their main forces, they seem well prepared for that. I'd use them deep in the enemy rear, killing the farmers/workers of the Vallorian Empire. This causes economic havoc, hurting the Vallorian empire right where it is strongest. Its the little people's taxes that pays, feeds, and clothes the army marching against you. 

Just as you cannot be everywhere to defend your two cities, neither can they.

Have a method to call some of them back in time for the epic battle.

If you are worried about engineers tunnelling, create lava or water pools in the depths of the fortress at likely points for the miners to tunnel into (or _passwall_ into).

It really just comes down to intelligence and trying to wear their strength down before you engage. There is only so much preparation you can do.


----------



## mmadsen

> Not that it helps much but Hallow is 10' radius a level and places one spell in that area for 1 year...dimensional anchor is one of the spells that can be used with it.  You might need a bunch of them, but I'm thinking it would help...better them right next to it than somewhere in it.



So we fill our Evil Citadel with Forbiddance, and we Unhallow it with something useful -- perhaps Invisibility Purge to detect spies, or Resist Elements to take away some favorite commando attacks.

Then we Unhallow everything near our Evil Citadel with Dimensional Anchor, so teleporting commandos get stuck fighting it out (or flying away).


----------



## Crowe9107

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> So we fill our Evil Citadel with Forbiddance, and we Unhallow it with something useful -- perhaps Invisibility Purge to detect spies, or Resist Elements to take away some favorite commando attacks.
> 
> Then we Unhallow everything near our Evil Citadel with Dimensional Anchor, so teleporting commandos get stuck fighting it out (or flying away). *




BWAHAHAHA The Dark God smiles upon you. This has the added benefit of pumping up our undead forces on home turf, not so suck IMHO.

Cheers, 

Carl Rowe


----------



## mikebr99

All of the high level forces that can be spared should be used against the leaders and high-level adventurers of the enemy’s forces. Start at the top and work your way down. At some point the grunts are going to start to worry that the big guys are getting cut down... daily.

And try to implement as many of these ideas as possible... all will have varying degrees of success, but grouped together they will be a major headache for the opposing leaders. Not only do they have to defend against your vampires, and werewolves, the diseases, the protection of the supply lines, etc. they are now having assassins coming at them personally.


----------



## Broken Fang

Added to that wouldn't it suck to be some generic trooper watching the high levels getting axed only to be brought back (assuming ressurection is around..and it sounds like it from what I have ben reading here) and when your huys go down its oh well.  I would think that would have some serious moral implications on the basic troops...they come back but we don't (though mom and dad might get a nice chunk of change).


----------



## BOZ

defend a mountain fortress?

ill-tempered sea bass.


----------



## Paragon

Did I mention the lasers?  they would be big.

Paragon


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

I thought I would provide a bit more background.

The evil kingdom of Galleran, led by the ancient Vampire Lord Mallenar, originally invaded the Vallorean Empire. The armies of the Vampire Lord occupied and terrorized an entire Vallorean province for some four years. The Valloreans adopted some interesting strategy of containment, combined with spoiling attacks to keep the forces of the Vampire Lord off balance. They proceeded with this strategy for two and a half years, before beginning a series of enormous offensives. Each offensive pinned down large numbers of enemy forces, while other, weaker areas, were then hammered and destroyed. Platoons of Witch Hunters and Inquisitors brought fire and death to the lairs of the Vampire soldiers. Wraith-knights were hunted down by savage Vallorean hunter-groups, who fearlessly charged into the ranks of the Undead, revelling in the dark energy striking them. They seemed insane, and entirely driven to annihilate the Undead. 

This was an unforseen consequence. The invading evil forces, with powerful contingents of vampires and other undead, had unleashed such a ferocious assualt and slaughter upon an entire province, initiating great feeding frenzies, and enslaving the rest. There were millions of refugees, and hundreds of thousands of families who watched a mother raped and bled dry by a group of vampires, or a few teenagers who escaped a whole town being slaughtered, and so on. The survivors escaped to vow revenge.

Often, the survivors were gathered together by agents of the king, and trained and offered help. In addition, though, volunteers began forming, and the king organized them with the assistance and guidance of the Church into special sects of Witch-Hunters committed to fighting the Undead.

These particular Witch-Hunters have a long tradition, but now, with all of the volunteers, their membership has increased greatly. There are normal Witch-Hunters, and then there are the members of The Gates of Judgment--a sect of members who have foresworn all mortal life, and pledged unflinching committment and service to not only the Church, but also to crushing the forces of Undead, and Demons in particular. They have committed themselves to each other, and to live in isolated communities. Many of them are quite insane, driven mad over the years of fighting such horrific monsters and with enduring horrible slaughters and the loss of family and friends. These hardened members of the Witch Hunter Society have even gone to the point of embracing their own funeral, where they are buried alive in a special ceremony, and they are committed as dead to the world, and their life now only serves to hunt the monsters that plague the Vallorean Empire, and they are grimly, even cheerfully prepared to sacrifice their lives, as they view themselves as dead already.

It is these grim, crazed Witch Hunters that have often been specially trained, equipped, and prepared for combat with Undead and with Demons, that often spearhead assaults, or lead these hunter-killer groups that roam the dark wilderness on enchanted, ghostly horses bringing fire and death to any demon or undead they encounter!

The Vallorean armies crushed the forces that were entrenched in the fallen province. As Mallenar retreated back over the mountains into Galleran, the Valloreans chose to launch vanguards even through the winter. By the arrival of spring, as the Galleran forces attempted to rebuild, and recoordinate themselves, the Valloreans had been planning for this day.

A massive invasion, undreamed of by Mallenar, ensued. The wrath of the mightiest empire in the West was unleashed in a storm of fury that continued at a breathtaking pace. In short order, the Vallorean armies crushed over twelve large Galleran cities, each city having at least 500,000 people. Millions of people were put to the sword. The armies of Galleran continued to be relentlessly hammered, as huge columns of magically enchanted Vallorean cavalry struck deep behind Galleran lines, sowing death and confusion. Teams of elite Vallorean Rangers were airlifted behind enemy lines to build up liberation and guerrilla movements. Meanwhile, Vallorean liberators began propaganda campaigns, as well as bringing true liberation to those who desired it. Perhaps 40% of the Galleran population embraced the Valloreans as righteous liberators. 30-40% viewed them as invaders, and seethed with hatred and resentment. Some 20% or so remained somewhat indifferent, but cooperative with whoever seemed to have the most authority and power on the local level. Thus, the Occupied Territories began.

The Valloreans proceeded to fortify themselves everywhere, building great fortresses, smaller castles, as well as great temples, hospitals and schools to encourage the population to convert to the Vallorean Religion, and to embrace the Vallorean culture. Meanwhile, the Valloreans brought in some 650,000 Urrgan immigrants to settle in various areas, as well as bringing in over 450,000 Hippo-people to live in some of the southern regions where there is rivers and lakes that the Hippo-people like to live. Because of this, the Hippo-People have become Vallorean citizens, as have the Urrgan, who immigrated from the great northern forests beyond the northern frontier of the empire.

That great invasion was some eight years ago. Vallorea has been fighting *within* the land of Galleran for over eight years now, and fighting against the forces of Galleran for over twelve years straight. The Valloreans have also moved in over a million Vallorean immigrants to begin settling the areas, having come from other provinces of the empire that were being burdened by larger, growing populations. The Vallorean Emperor has decreed that Galleran has lost itself by pledging itself to Darkness. Galleran is now and forever shall be, a province of the Vallorean Empire.

The Vallorean war machine has proceeded to step up it's recruitment of wizards and clerics in order to fight in the war. In addition, there have been various gates to other planes that have been built and contained in a controlled environment, and totally within the secret, fortified areas specified for the purpose by the Emperor, in order to harvest and bring in other-worldly resources. These of course, are highly guarded secrets, but none the less serve to supply Vallorea with mountains of gold, stone, metal, mithril, gems, water, whatever kind of energy that is required. This isn't done on an enormous, dominating scale, of course, but it is done on a large enough scale to produce extra resources for the Emperor should he require it. There are various times that these gates cannot be used, so that the supply is not on a constant basis, and it is also limited to a specific set of harvest conditions. Still, it is a formidable source of extra power, wealth, and resources.

With over twelve years of fighting, the Valloreans are well-equipped and fully prepared for fighting wraiths, shadows, wights, and vampires, even down to the platoon level. Werewolves have also been fought against on a constant basis. 

In the ancient thread of over a year ago, "Going Down The Road To Hell?" with over I think 200 posts, many people at that time, were advising on all of the enchanted defenses against everything that Mallenar and the evil forces of Galleran can come up with! Still, it has been a huge scale of warfare, and the Valloreans have employed many of those suggestions for dealing with vampires, undead, and werewolves. They have worked hard to pacify the conquered cities, organize the people, and make the cities no longer friendly to vampires and such. In fact, with all of the Daylight, wards, Holy Ground, Consecrate, and on and on, it could certainly be said that the cities that the Valloreans have occupied are largely hostile and potentially very dangerous for undead forces to enter.

With the general control of the cities in the Occupied Territories, the Valloreans, along with immigrant forces, as well as indiginous recruited forces, began to form defenses and preparations to make the countryside deadly for enemy forces, particularly for vampires, undead, and werewolves. 

There now. I thought I would supply a few notes to help. I'll have a group of the epic-level characters up a bit later.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Crowe9107

Shark, what sort of Gods are in this world?

Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## Broken Fang

And what are the Valloreans doing to protect their own tows and cities?  This seems to often appear as something the bad guys will do...hit them where they aren't.  If the war has been going on this long what do we know about their quick response teams and how do they gather information for them?  Just because you can teleport anywhere doesn't mean you know where to teleport to.  Do they have some way for quick, accurate, nonbreakable communication?  If not use the werewolves and vampires that they are adept at fighting to hit them where they are not.


----------



## mmadsen

> And what are the Valloreans doing to protect their own towns and cities?



I strongly suspect they're systematically casting Forbiddance and Hallow everywhere they can -- certainly in their temples and strongholds, if not in every small town.


> This seems to often appear as something the bad guys will do...hit them where they aren't.



It's hard to imagine evil troops with Teleport _not_ using it for terrorism.  And it's hard to imagine _anyone_ with Teleport not using it to attack behind enemy lines.


> Do they have some way for quick, accurate, nonbreakable communication?



Whispering Wind should work -- it can travel for miles -- but I can imagine enemies sending spurious messages to the listener...


----------



## mmadsen

By the way, is the SHARK Vampire a mundane Vampire?  Or does the SHARK Vampire differ from the Monster Manual entry?


----------



## Maldur

Those whispering wind spells could also be used to demoralise the val empire. CAst it on a torture victim and let his( or her) cries drift into the enemy camp.

I would say, because of the magic and numbers involved, moral would be crucial.


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

The Valloreans have developed enchanted Orbs that can be used for communication over many, many miles. Such enchanted Orbs can communicate both visually and sound. There aren't hundreds of these things, though, so it is used as a secure form of communication for large armies and bases.

In addition, however, something that is more common is the use of enchanted Tomes of Arcane Thought. These enchanted tomes allow the owner to inscribe a message--of whatever length inside one of these enchanted books--and that which is written appears on a keyed Tome, somewhere else. The Tomes can be keyed to various other Tomes, and used to communicate to one or more, as they are keyed by authorization. This magical process can then attune them to other Tomes of Arcane Thought.

Thus, besides myriad methods of mundane communication, the Valloreans have a good array of magical communication resources available to them. The Valloreans are also known to have constructed mysterious, enchanted towers that allow for an instantaneous Teleportation Gate to another, keyed location. Needless to say, these locations are heavily fortified and warded to be especially deadly to anyone who doesn't have a series of authorizations--ranging from alignment, to paperwork, to enchanted Rod-keys, as well as two authorized witnesses who verify the person who desires to have access to such magical towers. There is a fortified gauntlet-chamber that must be travelled through to gain access to these enchanted towers. Oh, and naturally, the Teleport-Gate is sure to open to the other side where there is a warm, friendly reception!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

SHARK


----------



## mmadsen

> I thought I would provide a bit more background.



You must be reading our minds, SHARK! 


> Platoons of Witch Hunters and Inquisitors brought fire and death to the lairs of the Vampire soldiers. Wraith-knights were hunted down by savage Vallorean hunter-groups, who fearlessly charged into the ranks of the Undead, revelling in the dark energy striking them. They seemed insane, and entirely driven to annihilate the Undead.



Very cool, but...how did they do it?  What would the average Galleran general know about these Witch Hunters and Inquisitors?  Simply that they're insane and tough?


> There are normal Witch-Hunters, and then there are the members of The Gates of Judgment--a sect of members who have foresworn all mortal life, and pledged unflinching committment and service to not only the Church, but also to crushing the forces of Undead, and Demons in particular.



I smell a Prestige Class...


> These hardened members of the Witch Hunter Society have even gone to the point of embracing their own funeral, where they are buried alive in a special ceremony, and they are committed as dead to the world, and their life now only serves to hunt the monsters that plague the Vallorean Empire, and they are grimly, even cheerfully prepared to sacrifice their lives, as they view themselves as dead already.



Very cool, by the way.


> In short order, the Vallorean armies crushed over twelve large Galleran cities, each city having at least 500,000 people. Millions of people were put to the sword.



Now _that_'s Lawful Good! 


> The armies of Galleran continued to be relentlessly hammered, as huge columns of magically enchanted Vallorean cavalry struck deep behind Galleran lines, sowing death and confusion. Teams of elite Vallorean Rangers were airlifted behind enemy lines to build up liberation and guerrilla movements.



OK, so the cavalry are enchanted with greater speed.  And the rangers arrive by air.  Good to know.


> The Valloreans proceeded to fortify themselves everywhere, building great fortresses, smaller castles, as well as great temples, hospitals and schools...



Magically protected?


> The Vallorean war machine has proceeded to step up it's recruitment of wizards and clerics in order to fight in the war.



Damnable Vallorean Clerics...


> In addition, there have been various gates to other planes that have been built and contained in a controlled environment, and totally within the secret, fortified areas specified for the purpose by the Emperor, in order to harvest and bring in other-worldly resources.



Ooh, adventure seed!


> With over twelve years of fighting, the Valloreans are well-equipped and fully prepared for fighting wraiths, shadows, wights, and vampires, even down to the platoon level. Werewolves have also been fought against on a constant basis.



Well, what are they well equipped _with_? 


> In the ancient thread of over a year ago, "Going Down The Road To Hell?" with over I think 200 posts, many people at that time, were advising on all of the enchanted defenses against everything that Mallenar and the evil forces of Galleran can come up with!



Misguided fools didn't realize they were on the wrong side.  Anyone save that thread?


> In fact, with all of the Daylight, wards, Holy Ground, Consecrate, and on and on, it could certainly be said that the cities that the Valloreans have occupied are largely hostile and potentially very dangerous for undead forces to enter.



Good details.


----------



## Agback

*Re: Re: Re: How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?*



			
				Zenon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> First of all, the quote says 100, not 10. Or hadn't you read it?*




Decimate 100 men = kill 10 men.

The dictionaries after a time admit common misuses, but there is no reason why you should. In a language with a range of meaning from 'scotch' to 'annihilate', there is no good reason to say 'decimate' when you mean 'kill'.

Regards,


Agback


----------



## Agback

*Re: Re: Re: How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?*



			
				Zenon said:
			
		

> *This one is so nice that I wish I thought of it! The Valloreans wouldn't believe that their own troops were treated nicely and released unharmed!*
> 
> <snip>
> 
> *My hat is off to you, sir!*




Spare my blushes! This is the standard tactic for guerrilla forces to deal with captured regulars. Compliments are due to Mao Zedong, not me.

Regards,


Agback


----------



## Leopold

i think hannibal did this rather well when he marched down from gaul to attack rome from the north while going over the mountains.  The key for the fortress troops will be to strike when they cross the mountain, if they do, send avalanches, send snow storms, do anything and everything to waste the resources that the valoreans are bringing so when they finally arrive they have neither the stomach nor the resources for an all out siege. 

Also if you were a smart commander and the valoreans left a trail of bodies behind them, the easiest solution for this is to start raising the dead secretly and then harry the rear with troops as you come from the castle in a strategic strike to surround and envelop the enemy.


----------



## smetzger

1) Don't worry about the enemy mooks.  If all the mooks are killed they could still win with the higher level dudes.

2) Since the Valorians are so dependant on magic maybe they have a weakness to mundane infiltration.  Disguised assassins.  Try just sneaking in disguised.

3)  Target the enemy Clerics.  You must destroy their healers and those who can cast Raise Dead and Ressurection.

4) Target the other high level powerful creatures.  Come up with a way to kill them so that they cannot be raised and hopefully not be ressurected.

5) Try to capture and reuse as much of the Valorian magic items as possible.  

6) Use hit and run tactics, but make sure you destroy the bodies or take them with you of the higher level opponents.  Leave the bodies of the mooks behind, the good clerics will use up many a spell on a mook.  But take a body part of a mook with you that you killed.   That way both Raise Dead and Regeneration will need to be cast on the person.

7) Magically secure your fortress from teleport.  But leave some holes in the defense with some nasty traps.

8) Mix up your forces.  A well balanced strike team will do alot better than one of all vampires.


----------



## Crowe9107

smetzger said:
			
		

> *7) Magically secure your fortress from teleport.  But leave some holes in the defense with some nasty traps.*




I agree completely.

The Chinese have a proverb that is something to the effect that a man with one illness is in better health than a man in perfect health. What it means is that a man with minor health problems is more health conscious, and takes better care of himself than a man who thinks everything is fine.

Defense can be thought of in the same way. Thinking "Aha, I am invulnerable, nothing can touch me!" is dangerous, and will lead to lax security. Having a couple of semi-obvious chinks in the armor will keep awareness up and prevent the opposition from thinking of something REALLY devious. The best security device is always a human/humanoid one, everything else is just simply tools to help with that.

Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## mmadsen

> The Valloreans have developed enchanted Orbs that can be used for communication over many, many miles. Such enchanted Orbs can communicate both visually and sound.



How very First Age Middle Earth!


> These enchanted tomes allow the owner to inscribe a message--of whatever length inside one of these enchanted books--and that which is written appears on a keyed Tome, somewhere else.



I like!


> Thus, besides myriad methods of mundane communication, the Valloreans have a good array of magical communication resources available to them.



And tactically, don't the Vallorean Centurions have magical radio-headset helmets?


> The Valloreans are also known to have constructed mysterious, enchanted towers that allow for an instantaneous Teleportation Gate to another, keyed location. Needless to say, these locations are heavily fortified and warded to be especially deadly to anyone who doesn't have a series of authorizations--ranging from alignment, to paperwork, to enchanted Rod-keys, as well as two authorized witnesses who verify the person who desires to have access to such magical towers. There is a fortified gauntlet-chamber that must be travelled through to gain access to these enchanted towers. Oh, and naturally, the Teleport-Gate is sure to open to the other side where there is a warm, friendly reception!



Seems like quite a hassle to use.  And to misuse, of course.


----------



## mmadsen

> i think hannibal did this rather well when he marched down from gaul to attack rome from the north while going over the mountains.



I like John Warry's comments on this in _Warfare in the Classical World_: The march over the Alps makes epic reading; even in Livy's hostile narrative, Hannibal emerges as its hero -- rather like Satan in Militon's _Paradise Lost_.

Anyway, it appears that Hannibal lost one quarter of his force during the march.  That's not good.  And I believe he lost almost all his elephants.  (You think it's daring to march your _men_ over the Alps?)


----------



## mmadsen

> Also if you were a smart commander and the valoreans left a trail of bodies behind them, the easiest solution for this is to start raising the dead secretly and then harry the rear with troops as you come from the castle in a strategic strike to surround and envelop the enemy.



Would that even slow down a force full of high-level Clerics?  And can Zombies even catch up to a marching army?  I guess they don't have to stop and rest...


----------



## mmadsen

> 1) Don't worry about the enemy mooks.  If all the mooks are killed they could still win with the higher level dudes.



It certainly seems that way.  They could certainly assassinate our leaders.


> 2) Since the Valorians are so dependant on magic maybe they have a weakness to mundane infiltration.  Disguised assassins.  Try just sneaking in disguised.



I was thinking the same thing.  I was also thinking of using magical illusions in reverse.  That is, cast doubt on the sentries by putting illusions over normal Valloreans as they enter camp.  Everyone else sees the sentry letting in a furtive Vampire or Werewolf, while he's just doing his job -- correctly.


> 3)  Target the enemy Clerics.  You must destroy their healers and those who can cast Raise Dead and Ressurection.



A given.


> 4) Target the other high level powerful creatures.  Come up with a way to kill them so that they cannot be raised and hopefully not be ressurected.



Easier said than done -- the killing part, that is.  Taking the corpse or animating it (via Animate Dead) should prevent resurrection though, right?


> 5) Try to capture and reuse as much of the Valorian magic items as possible.



This came up in another discussion of the Vallorean legions.  In real life, Spartacus and his men ambushed some legions and came out fully equipped.  Imagine what all those magic MRE packs are worth...  


> 6) Use hit and run tactics...



Since spells recover daily, and since magical healing is so easy, how much good does a non-decisive guerrilla strike really do?  Magic items (and their charges) seem hardest to recover.


> 7) Magically secure your fortress from teleport.  But leave some holes in the defense with some nasty traps.



I'm interested to see how real, live players react to such holes in the defense.  Will they notice them?  Will they suspect a trap?


> 8) Mix up your forces.  A well balanced strike team will do alot better than one of all vampires.



A good general principle, but does it hold?  What troops mix well with Vampires?


----------



## Leopold

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> I like John Warry's comments on this in Warfare in the Classical World: The march over the Alps makes epic reading; even in Livy's hostile narrative, Hannibal emerges as its hero -- rather like Satan in Militon's Paradise Lost.
> 
> Anyway, it appears that Hannibal lost one quarter of his force during the march.  That's not good.  And I believe he lost almost all his elephants.  (You think it's daring to march your men over the Alps?) *





never read  the book but in the end doesn't hannibal still defeat the romans?


----------



## Zenon

The army regulars (mooks) are important to attack-

High level opponents WILL be brought back. No doubt about it. They will be Raised, Ressurected, etc. There's no way the Valloreans will leave that much experience and combat firepower go to waste. Assaults on the high level opponents will generate high-level losses on your side.

Not every mook can have the same done for them, especially if the bodies are taken/mangled/etc. The XP drain on the clerics is too high to be able to do this for everybody.

Morale will begin to falter: "What do you mean High Lord Muckety-muck got brought back from the dead?!??!! I've been losing men all week in these damnable raids! What if I die next? I don't want to die, I won't get the chance to come back! Don't they care about us?"

An army needs infantry to hold ground. If the Valloreans roll up to the gates with only their high-level guys, they may be able to take the fortress, but won't be able to hold the countryside or protect supply lines.



> By Agback:
> The dictionaries after a time admit common misuses, but there is no reason why you should. In a language with a range of meaning from 'scotch' to 'annihilate', there is no good reason to say 'decimate' when you mean 'kill'.




Sorry, it's the way I've always used it or heard it used.   I actually didn't know until I looked at Webster. Well, learn something new every day...

[poke polite fun with no offense meant ON]
I'll take it for what it's worth to be lectured in the use of acceptable and/or common usage English by someone from a continent where the common greeting is a contraction ("G'day!")
[poke polite fun with no offense meant OFF]


----------



## mmadsen

> An army needs infantry to hold ground. If the Valloreans roll up to the gates with only their high-level guys, they may be able to take the fortress, but won't be able to hold the countryside or protect supply lines.



Even with infantry, can you hold ground and protect supply lines when the enemy has teleporting commandos?


----------



## mmadsen

> With the general control of the cities in the Occupied Territories, the Valloreans...began to form defenses and preparations to make the countryside deadly for enemy forces, particularly for vampires, undead, and werewolves.



What kind of "preparations" did they make?  What makes the countryside deadly for vampires, undead, and werewolves?


----------



## Zenon

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Even with infantry, can you hold ground and protect supply lines when the enemy has teleporting commandos? *




Yes. Remember, this isn't standard infantry. These are "magic walkie-talkie" equipped troopies. If an assault happens, they're calling in fire support (their own high level guys) and fighting delaying actions and attempting to obstruct us from completing our goals unopposed. They also have to be present to man the fortress and occupy the 10 miles or so of surrounding territories. I meant Epic-level characters are good, but they can't be everywhere at once (or can they? I better check the ELH again...).

The infantry are also heavily magic equipped. Just let one of these low level guys have a wand of Dimensional Anchor and the True Strike spell, and somebody might not make it back when everyone else leaves.

The other thing to look at is how the Valloreans attack. Do they go after the army or after the high level opponents? Is their strategy effective? If so, it on them and see what defenses they come up with then duplicate them.

The problem is that the Valloreans have an "unlimited" (in a manner of speaking) amount of gold to throw at every problem to solve it. We need to either capture or destroy those high priced supplies before they get to the troops.


----------



## Zenon

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *What kind of "preparations" did they make?  What makes the countryside deadly for vampires, undead, and werewolves? *




Ditto. Is there a way to turn whatever they're doing to our advantage? Is there a flaw in their plan?


----------



## Leopold

i completely forgot about this..


Can't the high level priests gate in demons, devils, and other infernal allies? I am sure that getting together they can summon a nice duke from hell who would be more than happy to open the gates from hell and have a nice legion poor out into the masses. We are talking about 40+ level casters here that can open the planes of hell up for all to see and have the scores of demons, devils, and other wicked creatures that go bump in the night come and fight for them.

Promise them the bodies of the dead and the souls of those they kill and I assure you that they will welcome the army with maws wide open!


----------



## smetzger

Zenon said:
			
		

> *The army regulars (mooks) are important to attack-
> 
> High level opponents WILL be brought back. No doubt about it. They will be Raised, Ressurected, etc. There's no way the Valloreans will leave that much experience and combat firepower go to waste. Assaults on the high level opponents will generate high-level losses on your side.
> *




The Valorean's have been presented as fanatical do-gooders who are willing to die for their cause.  I do not think death will cause moral problems.  Moral problems will happen if you can get some Valorean leaders to defect.

As for the High level opponents and being raised and ressurected.  Thats why its so important to take out the the high level Clerics.  It will also be important to come up with ways to prevent True Ressurection.  If you could get rid of all the Clerics able to cast 9th level spells they will be in a world of hurt.


----------



## smetzger

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Since spells recover daily, and since magical healing is so easy, how much good does a non-decisive guerrilla strike really do?  Magic items (and their charges) seem hardest to recover.
> 
> *




Let me go into further detail on the hit and run tactics.  You should have teams of commandos going in once an hour targeting different high level Clerics, these strike teams should be ceaseless.  Maybe use several strike teams at a time.  What you want to do is constantly be sending fresh teams in where weak points have opened up.  You go in and kill a high level Cleric and take his body with you.  Next strike team targets a different Cleric somewhere completly different.  Hopefully, the Valoreans will either spread themselves to thin to try and deal with the raids or they will concentrate themselves too much.


----------



## Zenon

smetzger said:
			
		

> *The Valorean's have been presented as fanatical do-gooders who are willing to die for their cause.*




Then we must oblige them.



			
				smetzger said:
			
		

> * I do not think death will cause moral problems.  Moral problems will happen if you can get some Valorean leaders to defect..*




Fanatic or not, morale can be broken. It's simply a matter of scale. Combat units are also most effective when they have trained together, rehearsed strategies, know how each other will react, etc. Generating massive losses in your "conventional" forces will still take it's toll.



			
				smetzger said:
			
		

> * As for the High level opponents and being raised and ressurected.  Thats why its so important to take out the the high level Clerics.  It will also be important to come up with ways to prevent True Ressurection.  If you could get rid of all the Clerics able to cast 9th level spells they will be in a world of hurt. *




Use things like Trap the Soul.

Hmm, nasty thought just happened! Might be worth it for us to make some of these for the fortress to stomp out those commando raids:



> From the SRD:
> Mirror of Opposition
> 
> This item resembles a normal mirror about 4 feet long and 3 feet wide. It can be affixed to a surface and activated by speaking a command word. The same command word deactivates the mirror. If a creature sees its reflection in the mirror’s surface, an exact duplicate of that creature comes into being. This opposite immediately attacks the original. The duplicate has all the possessions and powers of its original (including magic). Upon the defeat or destruction of either the duplicate or the original, the duplicate and her items disappear completely. The mirror functions up to four times per day.
> 
> Caster Level: 15th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, clone; Market Price: 92,000 gp; Weight: 45 lb.




Nothing like fighting the enemy with the enemy!

[edit - make sure to keep the mirror safe by placing it behing a Wall of Force to keep it from being broken, but still able to let the effect happen.]


----------



## mmadsen

> Yes. Remember, this isn't standard infantry. These are "magic walkie-talkie" equipped troopies. If an assault happens, they're calling in fire support (their own high level guys) and fighting delaying actions and attempting to obstruct us from completing our goals unopposed.



I don't understand how this helps them hold ground and protect supply lines against teleporting commandos that can teleport wherever they _aren't_.  Teleporting commandos don't have to go through your lines the hard way; they teleport.  They don't even have to exfiltrate the hard way once discovered; they can just teleport again.


----------



## Broken Fang

So as has been stated before use the same tactics against them.  Even with their magic communication devices they can't be everywhere at once right?  Our evil strike teams do the same thing...hit in their towns/cities and tun away when the help arrives.  If it won't work for us then it shouldn't work for them.

I like the make a bargin with a Demon Prince.  That could really help when the invasion starts.  Army moves in and demons pop in from everywhere!  It is nice to get someone else to do the fighting for you.


----------



## Kugar

Don't forget to keep the spellcaster from resting.
A couple of lightning strikes to wake people up will put the troops on edge and keep the spell casters out of spells.  Gorillla attacks every 7 hours.  Lycanthropes during day, vampires at night.  Wake up all the spellcasters then leave.  Eventually level drains and lycanthopy will take hold as the remove curse and restoration spells become more precious


----------



## Zenon

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> I don't understand how this helps them hold ground and protect supply lines against teleporting commandos that can teleport wherever they aren't.  Teleporting commandos don't have to go through your lines the hard way; they teleport.  They don't even have to exfiltrate the hard way once discovered; they can just teleport again. *




If teleporting bad guys can be everywhere, then why aren't ours tearing the heart out of the Vallorean Empire as we speak?

Answer: They can't because there's somebody there minding the store. Not that they're high level, but they can raise an alarm.

The near instantaneous communication package of the Vallorean infantry can be used to call in support _within rounds_ if a threat is detected.

V. Army regular: "We have demons at Point Bravo!"
High Level Mage: "Wait One." Cast Mass Teleport on Epic Ready Response Team.
(Epic Team arrives within two rounds (12 seconds), kicks demon butt and takes names)
V. Army regular: "Wow, that was fast!"

How can we stop this from happening? The Vallorean army regulars are the intelligence gathering organs of the Vallorean army. Scry won't cut it. It doesn't last long enough. It takes an hour to cast. The Valloreans rely on real-time reports from the field to dispatch forces to deal with the threat.

You can't raise crops or settle an area if nobody is there to protect you from the more mundane threats other than teleporting death squads. Things like the werewolf, vampire spawn, our own low level troops, etc.

Does this explaination help any?


----------



## Broken Fang

I'm guessing the bad guys can't win.

It sounds like every V. regular is more than a match for anyone else.  They are fanatically loyal, have more money then they know what to do with, have more magic than the rest of the world, and have near instant communication and transport.  Is this really the case?  If so the bad guys can kiss their butts goodbye.

If not how many quick response temas do they have?  Can you be in more places than they have support for?  How many demons could be brought in or other creatures?  Other enimies?  War on multiple fronts and in the own homeland?  At some point they have to run out of response troops...if not you ain't going to win.


----------



## Zenon

Broken Fang said:
			
		

> *It sounds like every V. regular is more than a match for anyone else.  They are fanatically loyal, have more money then they know what to do with, have more magic than the rest of the world, and have near instant communication and transport.  Is this really the case?  If so the bad guys can kiss their butts goodbye.*




Such is the nature of SHARK's world. Evil has a lot going for it, but his good guys have even more sometimes.

I can only assume he has asked us for some plotting here for his bad guys so they can do their best vs. his PC's, and maybe shock them with some things they haven't seen before.

Thus, even though we know it's a losing battle, we have to apply our wits and every little trick that we can think of for him to consider. Sometimes it hard being the DM with one brain with 5-6 players with brains on the other side. SHARK is utilizing his resources here.  

I'm just hoping he posts us on how it goes when it finally happens in game. (Hear that SHARK? Keep us posted!)


----------



## mmadsen

> If teleporting bad guys can be everywhere, then why aren't ours tearing the heart out of the Vallorean Empire as we speak?



Because no one's thought this all through that far?


> Answer: They can't because there's somebody there minding the store. Not that they're high level, but they can raise an alarm.
> 
> The near instantaneous communication package of the Vallorean infantry can be used to call in support _within rounds_ if a threat is detected.



I'm not sure about that.  The legions may have magical radio-headset helmets, but the legions aren't everywhere.  And those helmets aren't long range; they have to relay that message to a wizard in an ivory tower in front of his _palantir_ or magic tele-scribe book.  All the security precautions around these communication tools slow things down further.

And are the Champions of Vallorea always awake and in armor, waiting for the call?

It seems like our Vampires should strike dozens of locales at once, drawing out the Champions of Vallorea, while our Champions of Galleran sweep through their mundane forces.


----------



## Broken Fang

600 vampires = 60 groups of ten each of levels 6-12

1. Teleport to 60 different small/large towns in DISGUISE
2. Use Domination
3. Create Spawn
4. Release spawn to inflict as much damage as possible as you leave
5. Repeat at 60 different towns/villages...continue

Summon Marilith (demon...not the highest CR) who can Animate Dead and Cloudkill at will, he can also summon other demons

1. Appear in town
2. Cast Cloudkill...lots of dead people
3. Cast Animate Dead...lots of undead slaves
4. Repeat till strike team shows...teleport elsewhere and repeat

Are these possible options?  Again how many high level defenders do they have?  The vampire teams are pretty much self-sufficient.  If they have to they can always return to their fortress lairs.  Don't have them hit the big cities go after the samller communities where death would be closer to home (I knew Joe the farmer...what a way to go...die then be raised to kill your own family).  Use them to infililtrate, then cause damage, then leave before the calvary appears...repeat.


----------



## Broken Fang

You might even start with the smaller villages.  It could be possible that you could wipe them out before any alarm was sound...assuming they too have magical communication gear.  Ten vampires in Hommlet would be nasty!  Even if you don't wipe the village out you could do some serious damage.  Then work your way up to bigger towns.


----------



## mmadsen

> 600 vampires = 60 groups of ten each of levels 6-12



Do we want them in groups of 10?  It seems that either they meet no resistance, in which case they don't need numbers, or they do meet resistance, in which case they do need numbers, but they'll never have large enough numbers, and they'll all die anyway.


> 1. Teleport to 60 different small/large towns in DISGUISE



Does disguise help?  In a small town, it's not like the pale stranger with an aquiline nose won't stand out...


> 2. Use Domination



Naturally.


> 3. Create Spawn



The spawn need to be buried, and they need days to transform.  If the countryfolk understand Vampires -- and I assume the Vallorean folk do -- then the assault teams need safe crypts prepared.  They need those anyway, if they don't plan on returning to the main stronghold; their coffins need to go somewhere.


> 4. Release spawn to inflict as much damage as possible as you leave



Always fun.


> 5. Repeat at 60 different towns/villages...continue



Lather, rinse, repeat.


----------



## Crowe9107

It occurs to me, that one of the main strengths of our enemies are their highly professional legions. We need something to counter-this...How about getting an Epic Spell Origin of Species: Half-Dragon (Blue)/Bullette or Triceratops (call it a Siege Beast or somesuch), something big, mean, and heavily armored to pierce phalanx formations (essentially, a tank). The half-dragon portion would make it pretty smart for a beast (Int 4 vs a horse's 2), and the Lawful Evil makes it fairly trainable and well behaved. Adding Half-Fiend would make it even more formidable, but it would crank the DC of the Spell WAY up. Slap some spiked barding on this puppy and THAT'S Heavy Cavalry. Oh, and it flys....

Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## Ace

Crowe9107 said:
			
		

> *It occurs to me, that one of the main strengths of our enemies are their highly professional legions. We need something to counter-this...How about getting an Epic Spell Origin of Species: Half-Dragon (Blue)/Bullette or Triceratops (call it a Siege Beast or somesuch), something big, mean, and heavily armored to pierce phalanx formations (essentially, a tank). The half-dragon portion would make it pretty smart for a beast (Int 4 vs a horse's 2), and the Lawful Evil makes it fairly trainable and well behaved. Adding Half-Fiend would make it even more formidable, but it would crank the DC of the Spell WAY up. Slap some spiked barding on this puppy and THAT'S Heavy Cavalry. Oh, and it flys....
> 
> Re,
> 
> Carl Rowe *




Whee!!! I want one of those for the next time some jerk in an SUV cust me off in traffic

Malagoth! SUV--- EAT

Crunch....


----------



## Broken Fang

I would use things like Alter Self or Change Self as disguise...not makeup or trying to act like the new goth crowd that has moved into town.   

I would plan on teleporting back to the fortress...I mean why not everyone else is teleporting.  No need to make two places you would have to defend.

Didn't read up on Spawn so maybe just do as much damage and leave when help arrives.  I would think 10 semi-inelligent disguised vampires of levels 6-12 could kill at least a few people before sounding any alarms.  Maybe stick around in town and try to start a mini-killing spree with the attacks looking like wild beasts or something.  If help shows bug out.  Repeat the next day in 60 others  places.

I would think this is the best way to use the Vampires from what I'm reading of SHARKS world.  If you have them around when the legions hit they are going to get whacked by the anti-vampire teams.  I'd use them elsewhere.  I think it would sure suck to be a townfolk who just heard about what happened in the next village over when you could be next.


----------



## Crowe9107

Broken Fang said:
			
		

> *I would use things like Alter Self or Change Self as disguise...not makeup or trying to act like the new goth crowd that has moved into town.
> 
> I would plan on teleporting back to the fortress...I mean why not everyone else is teleporting.  No need to make two places you would have to defend.
> 
> Didn't read up on Spawn so maybe just do as much damage and leave when help arrives.  I would think 10 semi-inelligent disguised vampires of levels 6-12 could kill at least a few people before sounding any alarms.  Maybe stick around in town and try to start a mini-killing spree with the attacks looking like wild beasts or something.  If help shows bug out.  Repeat the next day in 60 others  places.
> 
> I would think this is the best way to use the Vampires from what I'm reading of SHARKS world.  If you have them around when the legions hit they are going to get whacked by the anti-vampire teams.  I'd use them elsewhere.  I think it would sure suck to be a townfolk who just heard about what happened in the next village over when you could be next. *




One thing you have to be careful on is the load limits of Teleport, a teleporting mage can only bring along an additional 50lbs/level of gear and people. Assuming a 10th Level caster (need at least 2 ports, 1 insertion, and 1 extraction), that is only 500lbs, at 150lbs per person, that is 3 peeps and 50lbs of gear (more likely 2 peeps and 200lbs of gear). Teleportation Circle is much more attractive, but a ninth level spell, not so common.

For a higher level strike force, depending on the prevalence of this magic commo gear, I would suggest careful scrying to determine the location of this stuff, Porting in (or sneaking in if porting impossible), opening up with an anti-magic field to block transmission (preferably quickened), turning the commo man and his gear to pasty goo (these OA trolls seem like they would be good in a scrap without magic), and then dropping the field and letting the festivities commence.

Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Damn! Gotta love the blue armoured Triceratops/Bulette things! That's thinking just like me! I love it! 

This is all some excellent discussion! I'll post some more notes soon, too.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Leopold

summon some half fiendish giant spiders with monster summoning and cast fly on them. Have them coast over the enemy and drop web on them from above. Snare the enemy down and then have creatures that are immune to being held, stuck, prone, etc. wade in and massacre them. 


Send in insect plauges to help keep the valoreans awake at night. Give them lack of sleep and cause them to become fatigued. 

Summon dopelgangers or pay some of the vampires to take over as leaders in change shape form. When battle ensues issue counter manding orders that would weaken the formation and placement of the troops. Use lots of non-detection spells to ward off those good priests and their fould know alignment spells.


Cast spells such as earthquake, lava burst, flood, avalanche on them. With hundreds of thousands of troops traveling in a straight line a few of those will seperate the ranks and kill them off. Send in your half dragon/half fiendish/bullete and start mowing down the enemy. Enlist Grey Reavers or those 3 armed ogre creatures to help cause terror when attacking.



The easiest part about this is that the valoreans are on flat ground easily targeted and easily messed with by nature spells. Any evil druids out there?


----------



## Numion

You could try to entrap a vallorean teleport strike team. Gather your high-level casters to await them. When they arrive, cast a few Mordys disjunctions on them, followed by Twinned Feeblemind spells by competent casters on their mages. Now the team might be trapped inside some devilish(ym) trap, where you have gathered your most powerful servants. Have a couple of good archers to knock out their ioun stones, in case they've got teleports stored. 

For extra effect you might want to be there yourself, to really lay the smack on them. 

The draw back is that they'll think twice before sending another team if this succeeds, but then again you'll have more freedom for your own actions.

Another cheesy tactic: Have a beholder wizard waiting them in a permanent Forcecage, with Hide Life cast on it. AM cone doesn't affect force, so they can't shut the beholder down, kill it or turn it away. Stuck.


----------



## Kugar

Going off Numion's idea, you can set a descent trap.
Have a small shrine manned by a garrison that is slightly tougher then a standard Valoren squad.  Unhallow the ground and place a Teleportation Redirector spell (from one of the BoEM - Malhavoc Press).  Redirect them to a trap of your choice.  Kills a responce team, demoralizes those who called, makes them rethink the teleportation support stradegy, and can give you some high level undead.

Not to shabby.


----------



## mmadsen

> I would use things like Alter Self or Change Self as disguise...not makeup or trying to act like the new goth crowd that has moved into town.



I think either (a) the enemy doesn't have a magical garrison in town, and it doesn't matter whether you're disguised or not, or (b) the enemy does have a magical garrison, and they can see through magical disguises.


> I would plan on teleporting back to the fortress...I mean why not everyone else is teleporting.  No need to make two places you would have to defend.



If we only send one master Vampire to each small town, that's not a lot to lose, but he can raise quite a Vampire Spawn army there (from his hidden crypt).  And if he's on the scene, he can guide his proteges effectively.

Further, some small fraction of these Vampire crypts should be deathtraps for Vallorea's special forces.  What if we simply collapse the ceiling in one of these deep, dark crypts when the heroes arrive?


> If you have them around when the legions hit they are going to get whacked by the anti-vampire teams.



On the other hand, the Vampires can probably take out non-specialist legions fairly easily.  Ideally we'd find a way to kill off their specialists early, so our Vampires can feed on the legions with ease.


----------



## mmadsen

> Unhallow the ground and place a Teleportation Redirector spell (from one of the BoEM - Malhavoc Press).  Redirect them to a trap of your choice.



The Book of Eldritch Might sounds like exactly the kind of book you need for high-level magical conflict.  It's amazing how much of the high-level game revolves around teleporting.


----------



## Zigmutt

did you clarify that the restrictions are levels? or CR? cause a fire giant with 20 levels of cleric is a huge force himself- much less 30 of them.  

But if you did not clarify, I would have all the classes be clerics.  To have heal and other such devastating spells at my disposal, the castle will not be usurped... As for feats- ranged touch feats and stuff that improves range attacks.  That way, you can cast your melee touch attacks as ranged (like harm) 

Plus, a kingdom of clerics, all devoted to one deity, you dont think that that deity will grace its walls with protection?  

If not deity intervention, I would cast runes at the edge of the kingdom (or its far reaches) as early warnings.  Every couple of miles or so, there will be a safe house where the peasant farmers can retreat to- which has an undergorund tunnel to the castle.  Once the tunnel is used, it will explode and cave in.  Once caved in, a contingency spell will rebuild the tunnel after 10 days of its exploding.  

The fire giants will have a couple lackeys with them (for heal) and will be deployed to the outer regions to guard against scouts and small raids.  

The mages will be on constant scrying of the boundaries- having like 10 at a time- and they would switch off (alarm system).  

Scroll will be made in off-time so that the wiz and clerics will not run out of spells during the crucial battle.  Wands will be crafted for the guards to use.  

Avoiding battle is the best form of protection.  If it does come down to a war, then may the best side win...

my tactics would be:

Necromancers are good for creating canon fodder- and things that can distract them- or just get in the way.  And Summon spells are always good for bringing in strong allies- if not just to replace the people you lost.

"summon planar ally" and "greater planar ally"- dragons and angels at their disposal- all for a price.  25HD is nothing to laugh at...

and all else fails- release the tarasque...


----------



## Zenon

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *It's amazing how much of the high-level game revolves around teleporting. *




Yeah, it seems to be what keeps coming up in all our posts. How do I get them there and back fast, how do I protect against it.


----------



## Broken Fang

Crowe...your right...might need to send them with a scroll of teleport from a higher level caster.

Numion...that is an excellent way to go about it.  Lure them into a trap.  If you can wipe them all out you could proabably use it a few times.  Until they commune or something to find out what happened.

BoEM...don't have it but if it has this stuff would be worth getting!


----------



## Crowe9107

I took the epic spell _Origin of Speci
es: Achaierai_ and juggled the numbers around to come up with my version of the Galleran Beastie---the Blue Steelhorn. It is smaller, but more rideable, I found that a true Half-Dragon/Bullette was a bit overpowered.



> *Origin of Species: Blue Steelhorn*
> Conjuration (Creation, Healing)
> *Spellcraft DC:* 33
> *Components:* V, S, DF, Ritual, XP
> *Casting Time:* 45 days, 11 minutes
> *Range:* 0 ft.
> *Effect:* One constructed creature up to Medium-Size (20 cu. ft.)
> *Duration:* Permanent
> *Saving Throw:* None
> *Spell Resistance:* No
> *To Develop:*  297,000gp; 6 days; 11,880 XP. Seeds: _conjure_ (DC21), _life_ (DC27), _fortify_ (DC17). Factors: +8 HD (5hp per HD)(+40 DC), +10 to natural AC (+20 DC), add three more natural attacks (ad hoc +6 DC), add DR 15/+1 (+14 DC), permanent (x5 DC). Mitigating Factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), increase casting time by 45 days (-90 DC), 5 additional participants contributing 3rd level slots (-25), burn 500XP (-5 DC).
> 
> Devised by the Master of the Breeding Pits of Galleran, this spell literally creates a new creature: a Blue Steelhorn. When first created, the Blue Steelhorn is Medium-size, but it grows to Large size in 1d4 days. A created Blue Steelhorn does not possess the treasure, culture, or specific knowledge of a normal Blue Steelhorn. If released to be among its own kind, it quickly picks up Blue Steelhorn traits and alignment.
> 
> _XP Cost:_ 500 XP.




I will post the stats for the Blue Steelhorn later, let me know what you think.

Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## The_lone_gunman

Well First I have to say this is pretty damn cool stuff. A few comments though:

With the number of epic level creatures you have on the defending force (and I assume you have a similar number on attacker side or this will be over fast), you have a conflict on the scale of a small scale nuclear exchange between two superpowers in my opinion. This seems to me to be a nearly cataclysmic battle IMO. 

Anyways, depending on the magical might of the defenders, since you have a place that you can retreat to, I would do this:

1). Gather all my spellcasters up and have them summon massive amounts of elementals, demons, undead, etc....whatever types of "expendable" creatures you can come up with, and simply send wave after wave of these into the enemy ranks. Constant, pressuring attacks to force the enemy to put its complete attention your way. 

2) support this attack with precision attacks on specific enemy targets, in this order:

a) enemy spellcasters
b) enemy air units
c) enemy supply and logistic structure

3) The idea would be to provoke the enemy into attacking your fortress. Without seeing the terrain on the map it is difficult to do this, but here is how I would set it up if possible:

a) set up defensive positions around the fortress. Areas that you can constantly fall back to, basically a tiered defense. 

b) Utilizing magic, use Hallucianary terrain and mass inv spells to position your fast moving troops on the flanks, and attempt to draw the enemy into a "fire sack". If you can get them to fix on your fortress, then flank them with your fast movers, you should be able to unleash hell into the firesack and demolish them. The key would be to ensure that they lose their eyes and ears (magic and flight assests) in the beginning attacks. If they do not attack you, simply continue to harrass them with expendable magic assests (if you get in trouble you can always fall back to your fortress). 

4) some other "harrassing" attacks would be:

a) plague on the enemy army
b) highly specialized "strike" teams eliminating key players in the enemies army (high lvl generals, healers, and wizards)
c) Massive amount of "terrain adjustment". IE, if the army is split into several camps, take a large strike team, and use magic to alter the terrain to isolate them, then destroy the smaller forces with your overwealming strike team.
d) Magic altering of the weather to make the enemy army suck wind (blizzard in teh middle of summer would pretty much suck)


Just a few ideas I had here at work .

TLG


----------



## Vurt

Overload the switchboard.

If the do-gooder response teams can handle 100 simultaneous ermergencies, force them to suddenly deal with 500, and then 1000.  What happens when the person monitoring the instant communication has to deal with 10 calls at a time?  Or the book suddenly has 30 pages of requests for help.  The ball is going to get fumbled somewhere down the line, even if it affords the attacking evil an extra minute while the good guys fire off 10 teleports elsewhere with a higher priority.  That's 10 times as many undead raised the rapid response team has to deal with when they finally do show up.


----------



## mmadsen

> Damn! Gotta love the blue armoured Triceratops/Bulette things! That's thinking just like me!



I practically assumed you already had such a thing, SHARK.  Isn't everyone already running around on Velociraptors, Mammoths, Woolly Rhinos, etc.?


----------



## mmadsen

> summon some half fiendish giant spiders with monster summoning and cast fly on them.



I think we've just crossed the line from "creative" to "surreal" right there.  Flying giant spiders.  Yeesh!


----------



## hong

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> I think we've just crossed the line from "creative" to "surreal" right there.  Flying giant spiders.  Yeesh! *




Yeah. I mean, half-fiend monstrous spiders already have a 50% chance to have wings. Who needs to cast fly on them? Yeesh!


----------



## mmadsen

> Overload the switchboard.



You make a good point, Vurt.  By analogy, we can also overload other Vallorean magical resources, not just their communications.  For instance, the legions undoubtably have sentries who can see invisible foes and see illusions.  An ambush by a few invisible Wang-Liang might just get spotted.  On the other hand, invisible foes and illusions _en masse_ might overwhelm the limited number of magical sentries.  They'll know they're under attack, but they won't be able to direct mundane troops against dozens or hundreds of attackers.


----------



## Leopold

hong said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yeah. I mean, half-fiend monstrous spiders already have a 50% chance to have wings. Who needs to cast fly on them? Yeesh! *






exactly! If they got wings and can fly already who needs anything more...


----------



## Leopold

Crowe9107 said:
			
		

> *I took the epic spell Origin of Speci
> es: Achaierai and juggled the numbers around to come up with my version of the Galleran Beastie---the Blue Steelhorn. It is smaller, but more rideable, I found that a true Half-Dragon/Bullette was a bit overpowered.
> 
> 
> 
> *




Why'd you think it was too powerful? I whipped one up in pcgen and here is what I got:

M Bulette Beast9  CR 9; Size:H Type Beast|DRAGON; HD (9d10)+54; hp 104; Init +2 (+2 Dex, +0 Misc); Spd Walk 40', Burrow 10', Fly 40'; AC 26 (flatfooted 24, touch 12), Bite (Natural/Primary) +16 0'/BPS (2d8+12 20/x2 Neither H ) or Claw (Natural/Secondary) +11/+11 0'/PS (2d6+6 20/x2 Neither H ) or ; SA: 60 foot Line of Lightning 6d8(18) 1/day (2), Immune to Paralysis (2),Dragon Wings (2),Immune to Electricity (2),Immune to Sleep (2),Leap(Ex),Scent(Ex),Tremorsense(Ex); Vision: Darkvision (60'),Normal,Tremorsense (60') AL: LE; Sv: Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +4; Str 35, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 8

Skills and Feats:  ; 
     Possessions:   1 Bite (Natural/Primary),  1 Claw (Natural/Secondary), 

They are only a CR of 9 so why would they be hard to make?


Just for reference I added in the fiendish tempate to it and it changed a tad bit:

M Bulette Beast9  CR 11; Size:H Type Beast|DRAGON; HD (9d10)+54; hp 104; Init +2 (+2 Dex, +0 Misc); Spd Walk 40', Burrow 10', Fly 40'; AC 26 (flatfooted 24 , touch 12), Bite (Natural/Primary) +16 0'/BPS (2d8+12 20/x2 Neither H ) or Claw (Natural/Secondary) +11/+11 0'/PS (2d6+6 20/x2 Neither H ) or ; SA: 60 foot Line of Lightning 6d8(18) 1/day (2), Immune to Paralysis (2),Cold,Fire Resistance 15 (2),Dragon Wings (2),Immune to Electricity (2),Immune to Sleep (2),Leap(Ex),Scent(Ex),Tremorsense(Ex); Vision: Darkvision (60'),Normal,Tremorsense (60') AL: LE; Sv: Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +4; Str 35, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 8

Skills and Feats:  ; 
     Possessions:   1 Bite (Natural/Primary),  1 Claw (Natural/Secondary), 



I am curious to see what you have for your version of this creature before and after you thought it was too powerful..


----------



## mmadsen

> Nothing like fighting the enemy with the enemy!



That Mirror of Opposition idea is just the kind of thing we need to fight super-commandos -- use their own strengths against them!

Are there any similar tactics?  Obviously if we can play one hero against the others, or the legions against the specialists, we can achieve roughly the same thing.  Seems hard though...


----------



## CRG

Well one thing is obvious - there are alot more of the legions than there are the mountain-forces.

And the legions are all alive and therefor need to eat.

Again, I fall back on poison, plague, supply issues.

My general plan would be
(1) Find ways to deal with commandos
(2) Find ways to delay the bulk of their army
(3) Find ways to bleed their army dry

Undead, outsiders, summoned creatures, etc.  None of these things require much food or support.  I'd exploit that to the best of my capabilities.

For the commandos, I like the mirror of opposition idea.

Another idea which is extremely cheesy is the .... wait for it .... monster generator.  

I know, I know, Gauntlet-esque.  Sure!  Why the heck not?  Start spewing forth summoned creatures when someone gets near.  Maybe on a timed delay.  Maybe stealthily planted in the Legion's camps.

If they monster generators were powerful enough, you could use them to fight the uber-commandos.

If your PCs are uber-commandos, you could make a session or two out of it which they might enjoy - sure, they'd be playing a Gauntlet-clone but it would be fun.  Everyone would be running around saying "Arg" "Wizard needs food...badly" and "Elf now has reflecting shots!".  It would be a blast.  While the PCs are on that adventure, work out how much damage similar things do to the legions.  Maybe base it on how well the PCs do, maybe not.


----------



## mmadsen

> Well one thing is obvious - there are alot more of the legions than there are the mountain-forces.



Very true.  Those 350,000 medium-level Human Fighters of the Vallorean Legions are only facing 100,000 low-level Human Fighters and 26,000 medium-level Hobgoblin Fighters plus monstrous auxiliaries.  It looks bad for Evil if it comes down to a square fight.


> Again, I fall back on poison, plague, supply issues.



Will poison and plague ever take hold in an army full of high-level Clerics (and Paladins)?  And I wish we knew more about their supply lines.


> Undead, outsiders, summoned creatures, etc.  None of these things require much food or support.  I'd exploit that to the best of my capabilities.



Vampires need "food".  And they have short range; they have to get back to their crypts by sunrise.  On the other hand, they're fairly powerful and easy to crank out on short notice.  You can have new spawn in a few days.


----------



## CRG

Like I said... they don't need *much* food.  


Supply lines are the key.  350,000 people need to eat.  I hope it doesn't get _contagioned_.  Nope, check that.  I hope it DOES.

I'm thinking monster generators.  I like that more and more every second.  Mirror of opposition is 92000 gp for an 8th level spell, 15th level caster that is triggered by someone looking into the mirror (an easily bypassable trigger once someone figures it out).  It's multiplier is 766 or so for that ability.  

DMG, item creation.  Break-it-down (wonky wonky whicha music)

*Monster Generator*
This pile of skulls or strange stone device is triggered by some event and spews forth monsters, rabid and angry.  Common implementations include a time or event-based device or perhaps keyed a creature with a particular racial type / alignment passing within 60'.

Use activated = caster level * spell level * 2000 typically (although as I mentioned above, its approx *766 for the mirror of opposition - maybe 1000 would be appropriate).

Caster Level (varies); Prerequisites:  Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster / natures ally / greater planar binding / lesser planar binding.  Weight - varies.


There you go.  Bury them on the approaches with a time-delay or event delay.  Hurl them from seige engines at the approaching legions.  Got legions?  Don't worry, we got your monster.

Incidentally, not that it does alot of good but you could use 'create undead' instead, but my thoughts are undead will just get wiped up by the good guys.  Best bet on monsters, etc. would be as neutral as you can get them, hell maybe even celestial-bison, etc.  As long as they attack the legions, you're golden.



It's been a long day at work.


----------



## mmadsen

> My general plan would be
> (1) Find ways to deal with commandos
> (2) Find ways to delay the bulk of their army
> (3) Find ways to bleed their army dry



I think we can expect commando raids by the Champions of Vallorea.  We need to render an assault on the Mountain Citadel suicidal.  We can expect teleporting commando parties, invisible Rogues, etc.

If we can't lure them to their deaths in the Mountain Citadel, we need to lure them to their deaths somewhere else.  In remote Vampire Crypts?  In our fortified cities?

Even if we don't take out the Champions, we need to take out the specialists who keep our Vampires in check.  Without them, the legions are vulnerable.  Ideally we'd also take out all their means of seeing our invisible (and illusioned) soldiers.  Then we can take them apart at our leisure.


----------



## mmadsen

> Why'd you think it was too powerful? I whipped one up in pcgen and here is what I got:
> 
> M Bulette Beast9  CR 9; Size:H...



For comparison, a war Elephant is CR 8, with 11d8+55 hp, and some nasty attacks: Slam (+16, 2d6+10), and two Stamps (+11, 2d6+5).  And the Elephant can advance up to 22 Hit Dice.  Niiiiccceee Elephant...


----------



## CRG

Dire Tiger and Dire Bear are also nice.

CR 8 Dire Tiger
16d8 + 48 hit dice, reach, a bit better to-hit than the elephant but for less damage each (unless it pounces or lands its improved grab).

I do think that some way to bolster the mountain fortresses forces with a mess of non-evil, non-undead is proabaly the only way to get past the cleric/paladin Vallorean masses...animals, vermin, neutral beings, etc.  Anything summoned will likely meet with stiff protection circles (preventing them from touching the target).  The sheer biomass of the attackers is going to be difficult enough to deal with.

So, strike teams.

Hmm...


----------



## Leopold

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> For comparison, a war Elephant is CR 8, with 11d8+55 hp, and some nasty attacks: Slam (+16, 2d6+10), and two Stamps (+11, 2d6+5).  And the Elephant can advance up to 22 Hit Dice.  Niiiiccceee Elephant... *





yeah but can your elephant fly and breathe cones of acid or fire? Is it immune to paralyzing attacks and basic elements that spell casters will throw at them.


----------



## CRG

Can you really make a spider a half-fiend though?  I thought there was some sort of intelligence or other requirement involved.  I mean, I know they are fiends but do they really mate with spiders?

The biggest drawback is the 'fiend' label.  All those goody-goody paladins and clerics will be able to smite, holy word, dispel evil, etc. on them, making them bait for the rapid response teams.  Animals and the like may be harder for them to handle (and frankly, they are probably expecting alot of outsiders and undead).


----------



## mmadsen

> The biggest drawback is the 'fiend' label.  All those goody-goody paladins and clerics will be able to smite, holy word, dispel evil, etc. on them, making them bait for the rapid response teams.  Animals and the like may be harder for them to handle (and frankly, they are probably expecting alot of outsiders and undead).



I've been thinking the same thing.  Against a force of Lawful Good Clerics and Paladins, do you want to be Chaotic Evil?  They're surely armed to the teeth with Holy weapons, and their strongpoints are surely protected against Evil with numerous spells.  After all, we're trying to keep them out of our Mountain Citadel with Forbiddance.  That may work on some of their Champions, but that questionable Rogue guy might slip right through our Anti-Law, Anti-Good defenses.


----------



## CRG

Constructs, animals, vermin and mercenaries.  Beasts.  Aberrations.  Magical beasts.

Not-outsiders.
Not-targetted by alignment.
Not-undead.


----------



## mmadsen

> Constructs, animals, vermin and mercenaries.  Beasts.  Aberrations.  Magical beasts.



Our Vampires and Werewolves can send in wolves, bats, rats, etc.  By themselves, they're dogmeat.  How can we best use them?


----------



## Vurt

Hmmm...  Someone's comment about taking care of the sheer biomass of good-guy troops got me thinking, never a good thing.

If I was a great evil wanting to defend this mountain stronghold, early in its construction phase I would have figured out some way to dam off one of the river's tributaries to build up enough water to flood the valley and drown them all like the pathetic vermin that they are, at the flick of my practically dripping with evil fingers.

Forget boiling oil.  Think: tsunami...

Let's see 350k troops deal with that!


----------



## Sodalis

Lemme take the opposite side- how to invade and break a fortress.

The easiest way is to cut off its supply route.  If both are evenly matched, then the offensive army will have the upper hand.  They have unlimited supply whereas the fort has to ration


----------



## mmadsen

> Lemme take the opposite side- how to invade and break a fortress.



Good idea, Sodalis.


> The easiest way is to cut off its supply route.  If both are evenly matched, then the offensive army will have the upper hand.  They have unlimited supply whereas the fort has to ration



Presumably our Mountain Citadel is well provisioned.  Further, we can probably teleport in enough supplies for our elite cadre of troops if we have to.

Further, our job here is to slow down the Vallorean advance so our great Vampire King Mallenar can "gather new, powerful armies to sweep the Valloreans in a storm of blood and fire!"  If we force the Valloreans to wait us out in a costly siege, we can wait for reinforcements.


----------



## Maldur

supplies are less of an issue as every legionair carries his own foodsupply.

Posioning wells and waterstreams will make casualties as well.

Use lost of traps, it stalls the advancing army. Also use stealthy ( or teleporting) troops to trap, "cleared" areas. 

They do have a lot of magic item, so magic dead zones would help. Magic wild zones could create confusions as well.



Also stealing/destroying their banners would damage moral, especially if SHARK uses my suggestions in the 'reading group' thread.


----------



## Tiberius

Shark, how do you rule on the controlling portion of the Gate spell?  It seems to me that if you are able to Gate in a solar or planetar and force them to fight the legions, it would be a good idea regardless of the sucess of the mission.  If you send them after high-level characters and they win, great.  If not, Gate is of the Calling subschool, so the dead solar is truly dead.  Either way, you destroy a powerful minion of good.

Further abusing Gate, the master of the fortress, or his minions, could bring Abominations (from the ELH) to bear upon his foes.  I'd love to see the legions deal with creatures with DR from +7 to +12.

I've developed an epic spell which might be useful, if the range were increased:
Vecna's Touch (rename as appropriate)
Necromancy
Spellcraft DC: 80
Components: V,S,DF,XP
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 300 feet
Target: Several living creatures within a 40' radius spread
Save: Fortitude Partial
Seeds: Slay (DC 25, base), Animate Dead (23)
Factors: 40 total HD raised (+10), 1 action (+20), touch to area [spread](+14), 40' radius (+10)
Mitigating Factors: Creates wraiths (-2), 1000 XP burn (-10), 10d6 backlash (-10)

This spell causes all living creatures with less than 80 Hit Dice to be slain.  Those slain will be immediately animated as wraiths, until 40 total hit dice of wraith have been animated.  These wraiths are permanantly controlled by the caster.  Those who make their save suffer 3d6 + 20 damage.  The caster suffers a 10d6 backlash.

XP cost: 1000

I may have done the math wrong, and I am working off of some notes here, so let me know if I've made errors, please.  

One could probably create a spell based off of the Destroy seed (with its 12,000 foot range) that targetted magical items within an area.  20d6 damage is enough to destroy most powerful, fragile magic items, such as potions, wands, scrolls, staves, etc.

-Tiberius

[EDIT: changed 40 HD slain to the proper 80 HD slain]


----------



## Broken Fang

Ouch...just one more reason fo rme not to get the ELH.  My players have a hard time with the spells in the PHB.


----------



## Crowe9107

Sorry for the lateness of my post, real life made a sneak attack.



			
				Leopold said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Why'd you think it was too powerful?*





Eh...I suppose power is a relative term...I would feel kind of bad unleashing these things on a party of 5th level characters. 80 5th level centurions, may be another story. This really is the Galleran version of the Hind attack helicopter, though I can't for the life of me imagine how something that heavily armored would be able to fly.

*



			I whipped one up in pcgen and here is what I got:
		
Click to expand...


*


> M Bulette Beast9  CR 9; Size:H Type Beast|DRAGON; HD (9d10)+54; hp 104; Init +2 (+2 Dex, +0 Misc); Spd Walk 40', Burrow 10', Fly 40'; AC 26 (flatfooted 24, touch 12), Bite (Natural/Primary) +16 0'/BPS (2d8+12 20/x2 Neither H ) or Claw (Natural/Secondary) +11/+11 0'/PS (2d6+6 20/x2 Neither H ) or ; SA: 60 foot Line of Lightning 6d8(18) 1/day (2), Immune to Paralysis (2),Dragon Wings (2),Immune to Electricity (2),Immune to Sleep (2),Leap(Ex),Scent(Ex),Tremorsense(Ex); Vision: Darkvision (60'),Normal,Tremorsense (60') AL: LE; Sv: Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +4; Str 35, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 8
> 
> Skills and Feats:  ;
> Possessions:   1 Bite (Natural/Primary),  1 Claw (Natural/Secondary),




That is pretty close to what I got, PCGen apparently doesn't upgrade the HD, and as a half-dragon, it is allowed a feat per 4HD. Here is my original version.

*Blue Steelhorn*

*Huge Dragon*
*Hit Dice:* 9d12+54 (110 HP)
*Initiative:* +2 (Dex)
*Speed: *40ft., burrow 10 ft., fly 40ft.
*AC:* 26 (-2 Size, +2 Dex, +16 Natural)
*Attacks:* Bite +12 melee, 2 claws +7 melee or gore +12 melee, 2 claws +7 melee 
*Damage:* Bite 2d8+8, gore 2d8+8, claw 2d8+4
*Face/Reach:* 10 ft. by 20 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:*Leap, Breath Lightning 1/day (6d8 damage, 5x5x60 ft.)
*Special Qualities:* Tremor Sense, Immune to Lightning, Paralysis, and Sleep; Darkvision 60’, Low-Light Vision 60’ft
*Saves: *Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +4
*Abilities: *Str 35, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 8
*Skills: * Jump, Listen
*Feats: *Power Attack, Improved Bullrush
*Climate/Terrain:* Any warm or hot; underground 
*Organization: *Solitary or Pair
*Challenge Rating:* 9
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always Lawful Evil
*Advancement:* 10-16 HD (Huge), 17-27 HD (Gargantuan)




> They are only a CR of 9 so why would they be hard to make?




All of those special qualities get a tad expensive in the spell formula, EACH, doubles the cost of the relevant seed, even though they are not particularly powerful. The lightning attack seems a bit mean, seeing how these things are supposed to charge tight formations of troops, and a line of these opening up with lightning could definately soften things up. The dig is real nice, IMHO probably the most useful ability the creature has, it allows it to double as an engineering vehicle, digging trenches, dig in from incoming artillery, build concealed positions, and tunnel underneath walls. The version I did stripped the specials and added DR 15+1, pretty mean, but with that kind of armor, I think it SHOULD be able to snap set spears. Flight was taken off too.

*Huge Dragon*
*Hit Dice:* 9d12+54 (110 HP)
*Initiative:* +2 (Dex)
*Speed: *40ft., burrow 10 ft., 
*AC:* 26 (-2 Size, +2 Dex, +16 Natural)
*Attacks:* Bite +12 melee, 2 claws +7 melee or gore +12 melee, 2 claws +7 melee 
*Damage:* Bite 2d8+8, gore 2d8+8, claw 2d8+4
*Face/Reach:* 10 ft. by 20 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:*
*Special Qualities:* DR 15/+1
*Saves: *Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +4
*Abilities: *Str 35, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 8
*Skills: *Listen, Spot
*Feats: *Power Attack, Improved Bullrush
*Climate/Terrain:* Any warm or hot; underground 
*Organization: *Solitary or Pair
*Challenge Rating:* 9
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always Lawful Evil
*Advancement:* 10-16 HD (Huge), 17-27 HD (Gargantuan)

I guess if you wanted the True Half-Dragon/Bullette, you could burn the DC for the Extra Special Qualities, you wouldn't have to make many of them, just enough to get a sucessful breeding program going.
Why am I feeling sorry for the good guys? I must be nuts!

Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## Leopold

Crowe: Yeah PCGen has not been able to handle the HD jump I think . I think it might be fixed but the hit points came on very close.



As far as these things charging into combat as shock troops the best thing would be to have these mounted by the vampire lords in gaseous form and when they rise up from teh ground blast with lightning and have the vampires spell casting.


20 of these would cause terror in the ranks as you would be coming from below to above. doing this will split the ranks of the enemy. Follow this up by purple worms and you will be fighting a front on multiple fronts. Let the worms (neutral and immune to smite) fight on and on as the vamps and bulletes attack and dive like the sharks they are. or just burst through the air and start flying and then dive at the enemy. Remeber we are working on a 3 demensioanl battlefield so attacking from all sides up down left right, etc will sow confusion.

Also how are the valorean troops marching? Do they march like the romans do in a tight formation or are they the charge in type like the gauls? This makes a world of difference when planning attacks. Can we get any informaiton on how the soliders are structured and organized by legions or ranks?


----------



## Crowe9107

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Very true.  Those 350,000 medium-level Human Fighters of the Vallorean Legions are only facing 100,000 low-level Human Fighters and 26,000 medium-level Hobgoblin Fighters plus monstrous auxiliaries.  It looks bad for Evil if it comes down to a square fight.*




3:1 odds is about the minimum feasible force required for an assault. Their experience level as I understand it [Average Vallorean Legionaire is 5th Level, our Galleran Grunts about 2nd level], is a tremendous force mulitplier though, and we will be hard pressed to go toe-to-toe with Vallorean units on a conventional battlefield. Also, the Valloreans appear fairly integrated, while we have a mix of LE and CE forces, which reallistically would not work well together.

Our primary mission is to DELAY the Vallorean Forces and deny them the opportunity to link up and reinforce the Vallorean Main Body. Holing up in Fortress Indestructible will probably not accomplish this, the Valloreans will simply manuever around us,  capture our 2 supporting cities, and mop us up later when they have the time and resources to dig us out. While our presence would threaten them, their occupying forces could meet us from defensive positions, and WE would be the ones needing 3:1 odds, probably even higher numbers than that given the Valloreans experience. Granted, those occupied cities should be unfriendly, but as the goody-goody's, it may be seen as a liberation as the common citizens won't have to worry about becoming blood donors for vampires, or werewolf chow under Vallorean rule. I think at the very least, the Vallorean Army will split,and strike both cities simultaneously, with possibly a third blocking force to meet any sally or counterattack from the Fortress. This, is how I would play it if I was the Valloreans. They may just charge the fortress first, concentrating their strength on the hardest objectives while they are fresh, and then work their way to the cities, but it sounds kind of masochistic to me. It is hard to predict without a clear idea of the Vallorean objectives and their mindset. I think we need to be looking outside of the fortress for a place to take out the Valloreans, the more territory they take, the harder it will be for us to get at them. I think, the Valloreans expect us to cower in front of their might and hide behind our walls. I think they are supremely confident of their abilities and the righteousness of their cause. If these things are correct, a well played ambush/trap not on their timetable in an unexpected location, could seriously disrupt their plans.

Thoughts?

Carl Rowe


----------



## Crowe9107

Leopold said:
			
		

> *Crowe: Yeah PCGen has not been able to handle the HD jump I think . I think it might be fixed but the hit points came on very close.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as these things charging into combat as shock troops the best thing would be to have these mounted by the vampire lords in gaseous form and when they rise up from teh ground blast with lightning and have the vampires spell casting.
> 
> 
> 20 of these would cause terror in the ranks as you would be coming from below to above. doing this will split the ranks of the enemy. Follow this up by purple worms and you will be fighting a front on multiple fronts. Let the worms (neutral and immune to smite) fight on and on as the vamps and bulletes attack and dive like the sharks they are. or just burst through the air and start flying and then dive at the enemy. Remeber we are working on a 3 demensioanl battlefield so attacking from all sides up down left right, etc will sow confusion.
> 
> Also how are the valorean troops marching? Do they march like the romans do in a tight formation or are they the charge in type like the gauls? This makes a world of difference when planning attacks. Can we get any informaiton on how the soliders are structured and organized by legions or ranks? *




Heh, that kind of combined arms mayhem makes me smile, evilly, wouldn't that be a nice suprise on a Vallorean encampment in the middle of the night....

As for Vallorean structure, I can't say exactly, but given SHARK's love of Caesar, I assume it is on the Roman model of 80 troops to a century, 2 centuries to a cohort 9-12 cohorts to a legion (although I believe SHARK mentioned 10,000man legions, so this may be erroneous). SHARK owes us lots of info...Gods, organization, etc etc, the more we know, the better we fight.

Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## Leopold

Crowe9107 said:
			
		

> Granted, those occupied cities should be unfriendly, but as the goody-goody's, it may be seen as a liberation as the common citizens won't have to worry about becoming blood donors for vampires, or werewolf chow under Vallorean rule.




or they could already be vampire and werewolves already! Have the city throw a huge frestival similar to the liberation of the Netherlands by the allied forces, banners, flowers, etc. all being thrown at the liberators. Once word is recieved that they have liberated both cities and split their forces up, the vanguard of werewolves and vamps wreck havoc on the rearguard retaking these cities from those that 'liberated them'. These would be 'expendable' troops and need to be considered as such.

With such forces harrying at the rear the might of the unified army can come back and smite them all without so much as a wave of the hand. The key strategy is timing. Once the main force is engaged with the fortress then the cities rise up and begin decimating the rear guard and the supply train. These forces will die and should be counted on as being lost. Anything they do to prevent reinforcements should be considered a bonus. This is a trojan horse strategy nonetheless, if it works great. If it fails, you lost some troops but you delayed the forces nonetheless.



> They may just charge the fortress first, concentrating their strength on the hardest objectives while they are fresh, and then work their way to the cities, but it sounds kind of masochistic to me.




SHARK's players are smart. I think they will pull the divide and conquer manuever and take out the cities and then the keep. Antimagic shell and mass silence will be key to keeping this place isolated from the outside. Maybe some mindflayers to extract the information from the heads of the captured soliders to use this message information devices and reply to the main HQ "Sector 10 all clear" when in reality it's going poorly against the valloreans.



> I think, the Valloreans expect us to cower in front of their might and hide behind our walls. I think they are supremely confident of their abilities and the righteousness of their cause. If these things are correct, a well played ambush/trap not on their timetable in an unexpected location, could seriously disrupt their plans.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Carl Rowe [/B]





They are proud and arrogant but not stupid. Wise maybe but they believe their cause is just and will be victorious over the evil hordes. This mindset is simliar to Nazi Germany or Feudal Japan with the overal drive to stamp out those that are unlike them and make a new world in their own image. Hence, when dealing with these forces we should look on the ways that the allies dealt with them in WW2. 

The tactics we use should reflect the terrain, i know it's mountainous but lets take the japanese and iwo jimafor instance.  The japs were dug in like ticks into every square hole they could muster, tunnels ranged everywhere, mobility was key, there were no bottlenecks anywhere. They could effectively move all over the island unseen and unheard from the allies movements. If we could have a tunnel system that would mimic such a layout as this the denziens of darkness could move in around and wherever on the battlefield out of sight of the prying eyes of the valloreans. 

Granted once they get in the tunnel system there needs to be countermeasures to prevent wide scale assualt with these but a simple measure of traps, magic mouths, wyvern watch spells would help protect those access ways.



SHARK we need more info. I am sending out an APB here now.


----------



## mmadsen

> SHARK we need more info.



Ideally we'd get back an intelligence report, what we know about the Vallorean legions, their Witchhunters and Inquisitors, their Champions, etc.

What stories have come back about what the Witchhunters and Inquisitors do?  Can we recognize them?  Same with the Champions.  What do we know about the legions' Standard Operating Procedures.  I assume they set up a fortified camp every night.  How is it protected?  Or rather, what would we know about how it's protected?


----------



## Leopold

SHARK greatest troll evar


----------



## mmadsen

> 3:1 odds is about the minimum feasible force required for an assault. Their experience level as I understand it [Average Vallorean Legionaire is 5th Level, our Galleran Grunts about 2nd level], is a tremendous force mulitplier though, and we will be hard pressed to go toe-to-toe with Vallorean units on a conventional battlefield.



This _is_ D&D, so 5th-level troops are worth far, far more than 2nd-level troops.  The "force multiplier" there is huge.


> Also, the Valloreans appear fairly integrated, while we have a mix of LE and CE forces, which reallistically would not work well together.



They're everything the Roman legions could've been _with magic_.


> Our primary mission is to DELAY the Vallorean Forces and deny them the opportunity to link up and reinforce the Vallorean Main Body.



Exactly.  Delay the Valloreans -- and give their Champions a challenging adventure.


----------



## mmadsen

> Holing up in Fortress Indestructible will probably not accomplish this, the Valloreans will simply manuever around us,  capture our 2 supporting cities, and mop us up later when they have the time and resources to dig us out. While our presence would threaten them, their occupying forces could meet us from defensive positions, and WE would be the ones needing 3:1 odds, probably even higher numbers than that given the Valloreans experience.



I think we need to think of our Mountain Citadel as a safe locale from which to sortie (via teleportation, etc.).  It's fairly secure against the legions, at least until they get their magical siege engines up into the mountains and in place, and we can magically ward off most commando raids, I hope.

That still leaves us trying to protect two whole cities against commando raids (and the legions that'll roll in once our cities are softened up).


> I think at the very least, the Vallorean Army will split,and strike both cities simultaneously, with possibly a third blocking force to meet any sally or counterattack from the Fortress. This, is how I would play it if I was the Valloreans.



Really?  I see them taking each city, one at a time.  Perhaps their Champions will flit about, striking our elite units out of nowhere, but I'd expect their army to concentrate its forces.


> I think, the Valloreans expect us to cower in front of their might and hide behind our walls. I think they are supremely confident of their abilities and the righteousness of their cause. If these things are correct, a well played ambush/trap not on their timetable in an unexpected location, could seriously disrupt their plans.



So what's a good ambush/trap for an army with magically-enhanced scouts?


----------



## CRG

Anitmagic zones populated with creatures / beings who have only extraordinary powers and abilities (that are therefore not impacted by the antimagic zone).

So, things like Rage, Sneak attack, feats and skills are not impacted.  Constrict, Frightful Presence, Improved Grab, Multi-attack, dexterity, etc., Poison, Swallow Whole, Trample, Blind Sight, Fast Healing, Regeneration, Resistance to Energy, Scent, Turn Resistance are all extraordinary powers.

Hmm...

If only we could get troll-ish, undead elephants who could use improved grab to either swallow you whole or get a free attack with their poisonous tusks.

Oh and rage at the same time.  Maybe constrict with that trunk.

And, I dare say, the should probably get Frightful Presence, free for nuttin.


----------



## Leopold

half fiendish vampiric trolls. Immune to fire and lots of stuff..great schock troops.


What about mummies for undead? Ghouls, Ghasts, wights?

can we expect any help from the powers of eternal darkness?


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Here is some intelligence information regarding the Vallorean forceshe Vallorean War Machine

The Legion Standard is a mighty artifact of unimaginable power. The High Priests of the Vallorean Pantheon have access to ancient Greater Rituals that can make these awesome weapons. The great weapon is crafted to a pike-like weapon that is some 10 feet long. The standard is tipped with a silver eagle, inlaid with onyx. The eagle is finely detailed, and has the ability to bite. From behind the back of the eagle, a forged part of the shaft rises higher, and is formed into a formidable spear-point that extends eighteen inches beyond the top of the eagle head. A crossbeam rests at the feet of the eagle, where two white metallic wolf-heads are carved. The wolf-heads are life-like, with intelligent eyes. The weapon strikes normally as a Halberd, as the wolf-heads bite in combat. From beneath the wolf-heads, there are feet that hold onto the dark blue banner, which is trimmed in black and silver. The banner is embroidered with runes inscribed in Ancient Vallorean. The Legion Standards are made so that there is only one per Legion. Some of the Legion Standards were created over two thousand years ago, by the valiant priests of the Valloreans who beseeched the Vallorean gods for aid in their struggle against the forces of Darkness. The Vallorean gods heard the cry of their people, and the Vallorean gods sent divine servants into the midst of the Vallorean people, so as to help them in the design and forging of such awesome weapons. The Divine Servants mixed into the creation process elements of the gods’ blood, which had all been mixed together from each of the deities. The Legion Standards blazed with runes of gleaming fire, like that of a star. The runes are inscribed in the language of Ancient Vallorean, and the standards themselves are sentient, animated, and terrible in their wrath. The Legion Standards envelop the standard bearer with a fine mist of blood when the horns of war are sounded.

The standard bearers are specially selected, trained, and anointed for their position. The standard bearer must undergo an ancient ritual where the standard is attuned to them.  Such Standard Bearers are specially bonded with the Legion Standard, and undergo extensive training, as well as a series of rituals that make the wielder fit to be in the presence of such a holy artifact. Others may use the standard, but its powers may not all be accessible, as the Legion Standard desires. 

The Legion Standards were each blessed by the gods of the Vallorean Pantheon, and are of unimaginable power. Attacking the form of the standard with physical and magical attacks that reduce the Standard’s hit points causes the Standard to fall into inertia and a form of hibernation. As an artifact, such action cannot destroy the item, but reduces it greatly in power. The Standard—each of which has its own name—must be healed, and consecrated again in a special ceremony that “reawakens” the Standard, and heals it to full strength again. The Legion Standard has the following special properties that can be invoked by the Legion Standard itself, should it desire to do so, or upon command by the attuned wielder.

The Legion Standard has all of the physical and magical properties of a Divine Planetar. The divine Planetar has been bound up within the mystical creation of the terrifying Legion Standard. 

HD: 66d8+848 hit points. (1484 hit-points)
AC: 38 (-1 size/+21 Natural/+8 DEX)
Abilities:
STR: 35 (+12)
DEX: 28 (+08)
CON: 28 (+08)
INT:   30 (+10)
WIS:  30 (+10)
CHA: 30 (+10)

The artifact is quite intelligent, and capable of all such forms of communication as speech, and Telepathy. The Legion Standard has access to all such knowledge skills that it has inherently. Additional powers include:

(1)	Wielder has free use of Evasion
(2)	Wielder has free use of Uncanny Dodge
(3)	Wielder has free use of Improved Initiative
(4)	Wielder has free use of Blind-Fight
(5)	True Seeing at will
(6)	Telekinesis; (250-lb. Maximum; 1 minute each use.) 2/day
(7)	Globe of Invulnerability 1/day
(8)	Sunburst; (Heightened to 9th level; DC 29 2/day
(9)	Special Purpose: Defend the servants of the Vallorean Pantheon
(10)	Special Purpose Power: +4 Luck bonus on all saving throws; +4 Deflection bonus to AC; Provides Spell Resistance 30 to the wielder
The Legion Standard can Read languages, and Read Magic, in addition to Speech and Telepathy. 

INT: 30 (+10)
WIS: 30 (+10)
CHA: 30 (+10)
EGO: 110

(1)	+10
(2)	Holy Power
(3)	Lawful Power
(4)	Dread: Evil Outsiders
(5)	Dread: Undead
(6)	Fiery Blast

The item usually fights in the form of a Halberd, but in close combat, as a Free Action, the Legion Standard can change form to that of a Great Axe. The standard can switch forms as desired by the wielder. In Great Axe form, however, the various Army Spells cannot be so invoked, for the standard bearer is not then visible to the rest of his fellow legionnaires.

The Legion Standard provides the following Army Spells, and additional properties to the attuned Standard Bearer, as appropriate.

Sunburst 7/Day
Sunbeam 7/Day
Shield of Law: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Righteous Might: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Protection from Spells: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Protection from Arrows: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Mirror Image: 7/Day
Mass Haste: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Mass Heal: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Magic Circle Against Evil: 7/Day
Invisibility To Undead: 7/Day
Holy Aura: 7/Day
Glyph of Warding: 7/Day
Freedom of Movement: Wielder only; Constant
Forbiddance: 7/Day
Fog Cloud: 1200-Feet Radius; 800 Feet High; At Will
Flame Strike: 7/Day
Fire Storm: 7/Day
Emotion: All creatures within range of sight, as appropriate; 7/Day
Divine Favor: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Dispel Evil: 7/Day
Detect Evil: Constant; At Will.
Daylight: 1200-Feet Radius; 7/Day

All such spells are invoked at a minimum of 20th level in ability, as appropriate.
These properties are in addition to those inherent within the Planetar-standard, who can cast inherent spells, as well as all allotted Cleric spells.

The Valloreans have organized their forces in the following forms:

Legion Table of Organization and Equipment (TOE)

Legion: Each Legion is composed of three Regiments, totaling 10,000 men,  Commanded by a Legate. Also called a Brigadier General. The Deputy Commander of a Legion is a Lord Tribune.

Each Regiment is composed of three Battalions, totaling 2,622 men, commanded by a Tribune. 

Each Battalion is composed of four Companies, totaling 874 men, commanded by a Praefect.

Each Company is composed of four Platoons, totaling 218 men, commanded by a Captain.

Each Platoon is composed of four Squads, totaling 54 men, commanded by a Centurion.

Each Squad is composed of three detachments, totaling 13 men, commanded by a Sergeant.

In addition to the standard Legion formations, there are the following units that are part of a Legion, totaling 2,126 men. They are as follows:

1 Special Operations Battalion: These forces are various levels of different characters and specialists, who have a range of tactical deployments.
1 Headquarters Battalion: Various levels of experienced characters, some serve to assist in the administration of the legion, while others are elite bodyguards and so on.
1 Air Assault Company: Various levels of Sorcerers and Wizards, mounted on enchanted Griffons.
1 Elite Ranger Platoon: Various levels of Rangers.
1 Elite Knight-Templar Platoon: Various levels of Paladins, Witch Hunters, Inquisitors, and Clerics.
1 Elite Shadow-Raven Squad: Composed of 4 Valloreans, Rogue 10/Shadow Raven 10; 4 Valloreans, Rogue 10/Shadow Raven 6; 8 Valloreans, Rogue 10/Shadow Raven 2.
1 Heavy Assault Squad: Composed of the following:
1 20th level Cloud Giant Sorcerer
1 20th level Cloud Giant Cleric
1 20th level Cloud Giant Fighter
1 20th level Cloud Giant Ranger
1 16th level Cloud Giant Sorcerer
1 16th level Cloud Giant Cleric
1 16th level Cloud Giant Fighter
1 16th level Cloud Giant Ranger
2 12th level Cloud Giant Sorcerers
6 12th level Cloud Giant Fighters

1 Arcane Communications Squad: (Composed of 4 20th level Sorcerers; 4 16th level Sorcerers; 8 12th level Sorcerers. These are usually distributed to each Battalion, to maintain overall command coordination.



The Vallorean Rank Structure



Legate/Brigadier General—Legion Commander (40th level and up) 
Lord Tribune—Deputy Legion Commander (30th-40th level)
Tribune—Regimental Commander (25th-30th level)
Praefect—Battalion Commander; Praefects are former Centurions. (18th-25th level)
Lord Centurion—There is only one of these per Legion. They report directly to the Legate. Official authority is equal to a Praefect. In practice, everyone except for the Lord Tribune and the Legate answer to the Lord Centurion. (30th-40th level)
High-Centurions—These are the six most experienced Centurions in the Legion. They serve in the elite 1st Battalion. Their authority is equal to that of a Captain. (18-20th level)
Captain—Company Commander (14th-18th level)
Centurion—Platoon Commander (12th-16th level)
Staff Sergeant—Platoon Sergeant. These men assist the Platoon Commanders directly in the operations of a platoon.
Sergeant—Squad Leader. There are usually several Sergeants in a platoon, serving under the Staff Sergeant.
Corporal—Junior Non-Commissioned Officer, who serves the Sergeants in the unit.
Lance Corporal—Higher ranking Legionnaire who has shown leadership skills and a greater degree of skill in general. They often lead small detachments of soldiers on various operations or details.
Legionnaire—Common soldier of the Legion.

The average Vallorean Squad is composed of a Vallorean/Half-Celestial, 16th level Fighter; Aasimar Fighter 4/Wizard 12; Aasimar Cleric 12; Aasimar Rogue 12; Urrgan Ranger 12; Ogre Fighter 12; (6) Vallorean Humans, Fighter 8; (1) Vallorean Human Fighter 4.

The Vallorean Legions also deploy enchanted war-engines and siege machines, ranging from Scorpions that fire huge barrages of enchanted, fiery arrows, to great catapults that can throw Meteor Swarms. There are animated siege-rams, animated Siege Towers, that protect against spells, and also hold groups of assault troops ready to Dimension Door to the assault. There are War-Golems, that can attack with devastating storms of fire, as well as barrages of fiery darts, and tentacles of ferocious blades. The Valloreans also have special catapults that fire air-burst clouds of Holy Water, and release clouds that are deadly to all forms of Undead.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## mmadsen

"That's it, man.  Game over, man!  Game over!"

-- Private Hudson, _Aliens_


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

LOL! I just did a force-ratio analysis of the Vallorean forces. They are as follows:

15% are 16th level
25% are 12th level
50% are 8th level
10% are 4th level

However, though the individuals have access to appropriate level-related magic equipment, most of such equipment is defensive/informational/utilitarian in nature, as opposed to raw fire-power.

From several other related threads, the Vallorean Legions have communication helmets, waterskins, and MRE packs that make things easier for supply and logistics. They also have items that enhance skills like Hide, Search, Spot, Listen, Swimming and Climbing. That kind of thing. For example, most of the legionnaires that are 12th level and lower have either Master Work weapons and equipment, or magical weaponry of no greater value than +2. The individuals who are 16th level and higher, have greater magical firepower, of course.

Also, there are magical banners that assist each individual unit, but there is only one Legion Standard, per Legion, and it has a limited range of effect.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Leopold

how many legions we talking about?

lord this is gonna be tricky...


----------



## Volaran

SHARK said:
			
		

> *
> The Legion Standard is a mighty artifact of unimaginable power
> 
> SHARK *




Followed immediately by its exact definition ^_-

Those Valloreans are damned impressive.  Perhaps some suggestion for the classes and capabilities of the defenders might be in order.


----------



## CRG

Jeebus XMas.

Wow.  Am I the only one who thinks we are both out-numbered AND out-classed?

Ok well we need a boost.  We need anti-magic to take care of the paladin/clerics of the Valloreans.  The only decent boost we can easily give our troops is to inflict them with either vampirism or lycanthropy.

Since they are a goody-goody crew and are used to fighting undead, I think the logical choice is lycanthropy.  Are these werewolves "natural" or "afflicted"?

Then I think we need to consider boosting some of the hobgoblins, humans and ogres into some more elite units.  

Delaying tactics for the first "large" battle should be set so that it occurs during the full moon or some such.  Fighting goes as normal, several legions against several (organizations) of our normal troops.  We delay and delay until the time is right, maneuver and then let loose the were-dogs of war!!!!!

Just a thought.  More to come.


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Ah, indeed. The situation is rather desperate for the defenders! Isn't it always like that though? Hmmm...in the Battle of Britain, the British were outnumbered and outclassed, and yet, they emerged victorious. In Staligrad, the Russiand were outnumbered and outclassed, and yet, they too emerged victorious. In Caesar's siege at Alesia, he too was outnumbered and outclassed, and yet, when the smoke and fire of battle has dissipitated, it was the determined Romans that emerged victorious. So, in both ancient and modern times, the defender can stave off defeat and win the battle. It is just very, very difficult, and it requires no small bit of luck, and masterful strategy and maximized exploitation of every resource. In addition, unlike the advancing attacker, the defender in such circumstances has little or no room for error. Nearly all of his plans and deployments must be executed with ruthless efficiency and the utmost in boldness and creativity.

I believe such a moment is here, with this situation.

Certainly, the Werewolves and the Vampires both have the ability to spread their wicked natures through any of the mass of humanity that they can get their hands on. 

I'm also thinking that a creative use of the Manticores, with invisibility cast on them, and then have them swoop in to a large cluster of the legionnaires, fire off a powerful assault with their tail-spikes, make a few claw and bite attacks, and then fly away. Once they fly away, have them return to a closely guraded redoubt nearby, heal them up, and have them return to the assault. Do this three times, and then move the redoubts to an entirely different location, and start over again.

Combine this potentially lethal nuissance assault with an invisible, teleported assault group of *ALL* of the evil giants. have the giants outfitted with the best possible equipment--(Using the Player Character Treasure By Level Guidelines, not the weak "NPC" table." That should supply the giants with some great equipment. That's at least 760,000 GP for each Giant. Be creative gang! Write some stuff up--keep in mind that some of this exploration of item-creation and spell menus may prove useful in your own campaigns!--imagine all the giants wearing +5 Hasted Full Plate Armor, and equipped with 

Mighty Composite Longbows (STR+4)
(1) +2
(2) Unholy
(3) Bane: Humans
(4) Speed
Quiver:
(50) Arrows
(1) +5
(2) Flaming
(3) Fiery Burst

Imagine them all sweeping in, with such bows, they would get what, 5 arrows off per round, each inflicting 2d8+5d6+11 points of damage, with the chance for more from criticals? Damn! That's a lot of damage! They can fire off a few barrages of arrows, and they can endure the fire put up against them by the surprised Valloreans, and then, before heavier forces are brought up to kill them, the gianst can leave via flight or teleport.

Just some ideas!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Crowe9107

SHARK said:
			
		

> Forces:
> 
> Commander: 50th level. (You)




*Azurukin*

*Male Demi-Lich Cleric 27/Dreadmaster 10/Hierophant 5 of Bane*

*Hit Dice: *42d12
*Hit Points: *294
*Initiative: *+1
*Size: *Diminutive
*Speed: *Fly 180ft. (perfect)
*AC: *60 (+4 Size, +1 Dex, +5 Natural Armor, +8 Bracers of Armor, +42 Insight)
*Attacks:* Touch +42 melee
*Damage: *Touch 10d6+20 plus paralyzing touch
*Face/Reach:* 1ft. by 1ft./0ft.
*Special Attacks:* Trap the soul, fear aura 60’, dominating aura 60’, paralyzing touch, 42nd level Divine Caster, Perfect Automatic Still Spell, spell-like abilities, Rebuke Undead 11/day
*Special Qualities: *Magic Immunity, phylactery transference, turn resistance +20, damage resistance 30/-, undead traits, acid resistance 20, fire resistance 20, sonic resistance 20, immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks, hierophant special abilities, dreadmaster special abilities.
*Saves: *Fort +23, Reflex +18, Will +35
*Abilities: *Str 10, Dex 12, Con ---, Int 26, Wis 35, Cha 30
*Skills: *Bluff +10, Concentration +45, Diplomancy +45, Gather Information +10, Hide +20, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (Arcana) +40, Knowledge (Geography) +10, Knowledge (History) +10, Knowledge (Local) +10, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +10, Knowledge (Religion) +45, Listen +20, Move Silent +20, Search +20, Sense Motive +35, Scry +41, Spellcraft +45, Spot +20 
*Feats: * Craft Rod, Empower Spell, Eschew Material Component, Leadership, Maximize Spell, Persistant Spell, Quicken Spell, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Skill Focus (Sense Motive), Spell Focus (Enchantment), Still Spell
*Epic Feats: * Automatic Quicken Spell, Blinding Speed, Epic Leadership, Epic Spellcasting, Improved Metamagic x3, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Improved Spell Capacity (11th), Improved Spell Capacity (12th), Legendary Commander, Multi-Spell, Tenacious Magic (any) 
*Challenge Rating: *50
*Alignment: *Lawful Evil
*Hierophant Special Abilities: *Blast Infidel, Divine Reach 60’, Metamagic Feat (Empower), Metamagic Feat (Maximize)
*Dreadmaster Special Abilities: *Enhanced Leadership +6, Insidious Insight (+2 bonus to Sense Motive and Gather Information), Favored Enemy (Human), Fanatical Loyalty (All followers and cohorts automatically Fanatical), 2 Extra Special Cohorts 
*Leadership Score: *58
*Followers: *28,000 1st, 2,800 2nd, 1,400 3rd, 700 4th, 350 5th, 170 7th, 90 8th, 50 9th, 30 10th, 20 11th, 10 12th , 5 13th, 3 14th, 2 15th, 1 16th.
*Cohorts: *3 CR34 Cohorts 
*Languages Spoken: *Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Giant, Infernal, Undercommon.

*Possessions (Phylactery): * Bracers of Armor +8, Ring of Evasion, Ring of Freedom of Movement, Hand of Glory with a Ring of Three Wishes (also functions as a Greater Holy Symbol), Robe of Eyes, Cloak of Major Displacement and Etherealness, Helm of Teleport and Telepathy.
*Possessions (Lair):* Mirror of Mental Prowess, Iron Bands of Bilarro, 8 Iron Golems
*Phylactery Location:* Entombed within a living vault on "safeguard" mode.
*Cleric Domains: *Tyranny, Evil
*Cleric Spells Per Day:* 6/8+1/8+1/8+1/8+1/7+1/6+1/6+1/6+1/6+1/3/3/3.
*Base DC for Spells: *22 + Spell Level, 23 + Spell Level for Evil Spells,  24 + Spell Level for Enchantment or Compulsion Spells, 26 + Spell Level for Enchantment and Compulsion Spells.
*Epic Spells Per Day: *4

Is this monstrosity worthy of leading the forces of darkness? Ideas, suggestions, and tweaks, welcome.

Re,

Carl W. Rowe


----------



## Crowe9107

Speaking of Fire Giants, what if we had one of more Fire Giant Glassblowers, that made giant hollow glass spheres...I am sure loaded in a catapult, it would make a wonderful AP round.

Re, 

Carl Rowe


----------



## Crowe9107

SHARK said:
			
		

> Each Squad is composed of three detachments, totaling 13 men, commanded by a Sergeant.




The Marine in you is showing through, SHARK, but it is hard to argue with the 13 man squad, it is a superior infantry formation for modern warfare. I don't know how well it would work in ancient warfare, but given the power level of your troops, they should be able to operate effectively on the squad level.

Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## CRG

Well, someone tell me what a Wang-Liang is.  I must not have that book.

For druids, Call Lightning is a great spell to get stacking.  A few of those cast quickly turns a "once every ten minutes" into a rolicking bit of fun for a mid-afternoon thunderstorm.  Get a few of those going at once (or, say, a hundred) and you're in business.  Heck, a control weather can probably keep their flying units effectively grounded.


----------



## mmadsen

> Well, someone tell me what a Wang-Liang is.  I must not have that book.



The Wang-Liang are detailed in _Oriental Adventures_ -- no surprise there.  As I said early on in the thread:


> Our Wang-Liang are effectively Trolls that can turn invisible or disguise themselves. That is, they're big, strong, and immune to most attacks (except fire and acid). I'd love to be able to send Wang-Liang skirmishers against mundane heavy infantry. They can do some damage, withdraw -- with some dead foes for "rations" -- come back fresh, and so on. They can also ambush quite effectively, using their invisibility. Perhaps they can even disguise themselves and infiltrate a camp that doesn't have much magical support. We can't risk Fireballs and Flame Strikes though. Disguised as mundane Ogres, the Wang-Liang might not draw so much fire.



According to _Oriental Adventures_, "A wang-liang stands approximately 10 feet tall and weighs about 600 pounds.  Its body is covered in a soft pelt of lustrous dark brown or black hair, including a wild tangle of hair atop its head and, in males, a long dark beard."


----------



## CRG

Gracias on the Wang-Liang.  Nifty critters.

Technically, however, Vampire only applies to humanoids and monstrous humanoids.  Hopefully they, like ogres, arenot classified as giants.

So, I like the 50th level character.  Now, I'm not particularly up to speed on all the various classes in the splatbooks and frankly I don't own any of the FR specific books.  What I DO know is that the Valloreans seem to have my number if I'm an outsider or undead.

I still find myself thinking of things that are hard to dispel, hard to banish and hard for their goody-goody natures to smite and I keep coming back to animals, beasts, etc.  The more the merrier.

So....how about something like....

Druid 20, Verdant Lord 10, Loremaster 10...maybe some CR in lich (the old, dead tree) and additional epic levels somewhere else.  Maybe King/Queen of the mountain/plains/air.  Some mix of that.  Oh yeah.  Do I have to be evil?  Can I be LN?  Straight N?

What you do:

Command the weather and the environment around my fortress.  The very ground will attack my enemies.  The trees and grasses will hinder them, the animals and vermin will plague them.  And, because I'm all into it, the ground will swallow them up (earthquake still is an instant kill if you can't get out in time).

Whats more, I'm not the evil fiendish thing they think.

Or maybe, I am.  Maybe some of my CR comes from demonic heritage (making me NE possibly) and really, I love the environment...just on my home plane.  There's no reason this world can't be like the one of my fiendish parent....it just takes a little time.

So what, the Valloreans stop to burn every tree and piece of grass?  If they do, the weather (and my normal troops) can assail them.  I can damn sure make sure their flying troops are useless with some tenacious spell (control weather) being thrown about.


----------



## mmadsen

> Hopefully they, like ogres, are not classified as giants.



Ogres and Wang-Liang are both Giant races.


> What I DO know is that the Valloreans seem to have my number if I'm an outsider or undead.



I guess the flip side is that Unholy Human-Bane weapons should kick some Vallorean tail!


----------



## mmadsen

> Speaking of Fire Giants, what if we had one of more Fire Giant Glassblowers, that made giant hollow glass spheres...I am sure loaded in a catapult, it would make a wonderful AP round.



Who needs a catapult when you've already got Fire Giants?


----------



## mmadsen

> I'm also thinking that a creative use of the Manticores, with invisibility cast on them, and then have them swoop in to a large cluster of the legionnaires, fire off a powerful assault with their tail-spikes, make a few claw and bite attacks, and then fly away. Once they fly away, have them return to a closely guraded redoubt nearby, heal them up, and have them return to the assault. Do this three times, and then move the redoubts to an entirely different location, and start over again.



I summarily dismissed invisible hit-and-run attacks, because I assumed that True-Seeing sentries would spot them, and some cadre of elite archers would shoot them down.  Then the Champions would chase down any survivors and kill them.

Am I giving the Valloreans too much credit?  If so, we've got all sorts of troops who can turn invisible or magically disguise themselves.  They can hit and run every night that the Valloreans march on our Unhallowed Halls.


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Carl, Azurakin rocks my friend! That's quite a piece of work there. Very good indeed! I think it would also be reasonable to assume that the various forces that the character has acquired could easily have come from the two large cities nearby, so there are additional forces that could concievable have all manner of skills and backgrounds. There are some pretty respectable levels there, too!

CRG: Some excellent ideas, too, sir. I think that is an element that could be certainly exploited. Dire Tigers or Dire Bears can make quite an impact on that scouting cavalry patrol, or a small foraging party, not to mention a infantry unit on the march. One or two such animals may not seem like much, but imagine an ambush where you have two dozen Dire Tigers and two dozen Dire Bears, supported by archers that have been hiding previously in a line of fortified, camoflauged Portable Holes, that all rise up and smash into the marching line of legionnaires, attacking with great ferocity and determination, and fighting to the death! With a spell or item of Nondetection, the archers and the Dire Tigers and Dire Bears, will avoid any kind of evil or undead detection spells that the Valloreans are sure to saturate the area in front of them as they march, searching for ambushes. With this kind of ambush, it remains practically undetectable, and invisible--until it's too late.

Mmadsen: Indeed my friend! Wang-Liang are quite potent! I think if someone equips them well, they can be used as special assault groups that have very powerful effects. Eventually, they might all die, but they can be sure to make the Valloreans bleed for quite some time. And, who knows? They may be able to evade capture and keep their casualties to a minimum, if they have items of regeneration, some healing, and can avoid being trapped and overwhelmed. I like 'em!

I should also note a few other things to consider. 

(1) Though the Legion Standard can also cast spells as per the Planetar, the "Planetar" cannot, of itself, move. It must be moved by a creature. Obviously, as I can't quite recall all of the spell abilities of a Planetar, their spells and such must be adjuducated creatively according to the imposition of being bonded into a physical item.

(2) In the campaign, there is no resurrection or raise dead spells. Once someone is dead--they are dead. There are however, "Fate Points" and there is the Philosopher's Egg, and a few other substances, magical places, and so on, that can restore life to a dead creature, but they are usually very isolated and rare.

(3) While the Valloreans have superior numbers, and an overall superior level of mass firepower, the terrain itself, even when not animated against the invader, imposes significant challenges and difficulties. Climb, Swim, and magic communication are all great, but in order for the battalion to get up this 360-foot high wall of the gorge, it has to begin climbing. In the rain. In 85-100 degree humid, hot weather. And more rain. And more rain. And maybe a good deal of mud, too.

All along, those who are already at the top of the cliff are being ambushed by a horde of Dire Tigers, archers, werewolves, and invisible sorcerers!

I can assure you, at that point in time, the Vallorean Commander isn't going to feel they have many great advantages. They are going to feel like they have entered a sweltering, wet, blood-sucking forest of hell real fast, as good men, known to be valiant and strong, are found ripped to pieces, or crucified to a tree, every step of the way that they proceed into the dark forest!

Yes, the Valloreans will clench their jaws in grim, fanatical determination, and they will not quit, nor will they falter, nor will they turn back. They will march on, for the pride, the glory, the very security and safety of their empire is at stake, and perhaps most importantly, though, if perversely,--every beloved friend that is eaten by the tigers, or made into a vampire, or crucified to a tree, will burn the Valloreans with an unyielding resolve to fight on, for they love and cherish their friends deeply-- so they will not give up-- but they will be in pain and misery every step of the way!

As an added thought, how do two Druids resolve Control Weather spells? One wants it dark, cloudy, and rainy, but still hot and humid; while the other one wants it to be bright, sunny, clear, but cool. It's been awhile since I read that section of rules!

In all such cases where any of you make up characters for the defense, don't use the weak NPC table in the DMG. Use the standard Player Character wealth Table by level, there, and in the Epic book, as appropriate. 

I personally don't believe there is anything particularly inferior about a 20th LVL Fighter, who happens to be an NPC. If the Player Character 20th LVL Fighter can have 760,000 GP in gear and magic items, then I think that the NPC's should too. 

After all, when player characters die, their dead. If they avoid death directly, it still costs them a Fate Point, which is like a "life"--in that it is very precious, and not easily acquired, but all too easily lost! If the character is captured, they get screwed hard. They can expect to lose many or all of their magic items and goodies if the enemy gets their hands on 'em. Combat in the campaign is ferocious, bloody, and deadly. Thus, the stakes are high in death or reward, whether you are a player character, or an NPC.

This is some really great stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## mmadsen

> That's at least 760,000 GP for each Giant. Be creative gang!




How we want to arm our Giants depends, I suppose, on what we expect them to face.  Going by previous posts about the Vallorean legions, a typical soldier is 7th level, 54 hp, AC 19, Atk +8, 1d6+2.

With his Huge Greatsword, a typical Fire Giant does 2d8+15, averaging 24 points of damage per hit.  If we want to Cleave legionaries, we want to bump that up to 54 points per hit.  

A Flaming (+1), Unholy (+2), Human-Bane (+2) sword with the required +1 Enhancement Bonus is +6-equivalent (72,000 gp), and does 2d8+15+1d6+2d6+2d6+1, or 2d8+5d6+16 damage, averaging 45 points per hit.  Against AC 19, I guess our Fire Giants can Power Attack aggressively.

If we give the Fire Giants red-hot "cannon" balls to throw (analogous to sling bullets vs. stones), we can enchant 50 of those at a time, making them +1, Unholy, Human-Bane weapons.  They already do 2d6 fire damage.  That's 50,000 gp for the lot, and 2d6+10+2d6+2d6+2d6 damage, or 8d6+10 damage, averaging 38 points.  I envision the Fire Giants carrying chainmail satchels of hot coals and "cannon" balls.

(Wait, should the Human-Bane weapons do an extra 2d6_+2_?  Add that +2 in.)


----------



## mmadsen

Although the standard Fire Giant weapon is a Huge Greatsword, I think our Giants would be better off with a Large Greatsword and a shield -- particularly if it's a +1 Shield of Exceptional Arrow Deflection, capable of deflecting _any_ ranged attack (81,000 gp).

They'll need something to bump up their Ref Save though; the shield requires a DC 20 Ref Save to deflect attacks.


----------



## mmadsen

> Mmadsen: Indeed my friend! Wang-Liang are quite potent! I think if someone equips them well, they can be used as special assault groups that have very powerful effects. Eventually, they might all die, but they can be sure to make the Valloreans bleed for quite some time. And, who knows? They may be able to evade capture and keep their casualties to a minimum, if they have items of regeneration, some healing, and can avoid being trapped and overwhelmed. I like 'em!



SHARK, the Wang-Liang already regenerate; they only take normal damage from fire and acid.  That's why our Wang-Liang -- who can Alter Self -- will appear as Ogres or Fire Giants when they attack.


----------



## Leopold

what about the hobgoblins? we could equip them similar to the way that the legionaires are done? SHARK's hobby's are the same as 1st edtion, a qusi oriental goblin LE. They would fight as the main force of organized troops with the rest as rabble.

what about kobolds, orcs, goblins? Anyone feel like dropping cauldons of Black pudding and Grey ooze on the soliders? Imagine the face when the soliders see the liquid rise up and start attacking....oh the possiblities....


----------



## mmadsen

> Mighty Composite Longbows (STR+4)
> (1) +2
> (2) Unholy
> (3) Bane: Humans
> (4) Speed
> Quiver:
> (50) Arrows
> (1) +5
> (2) Flaming
> (3) Fiery Burst



You can do some impressive things with fairly cheap (by SHARK standards) weapons.  Try a +1 Distant Shot Mighty Composite Longbow (+4 Str bonus) -- just under 100,000 gp -- with 50 +1 Unholy arrows -- another 18,000 gp.  It can shoot any target within line of sight at no penalty, doing an extra 2d6 damage to Good targets.  That's 1d8+2d6+6 damage, averaging 17 points -- but from miles away.  Get some elite mounted archers on something that can fly, and take Parthian tactics to an epic level!


----------



## mmadsen

> The Legion Standard is a mighty artifact of unimaginable power.



Understatement.  Reading that list of powers was like reading a sanity-blasting tome of Things Man Was Not Meant To Know.

I was thinking the standards might provide a Magic Circle against Evil, some kind of Aura of Courage, etc.  You know, subtle, little morale-boosting powers.


> The eagle is finely detailed, and has the ability to bite.



Cute.


> A crossbeam rests at the feet of the eagle, where two white metallic wolf-heads are carved. The wolf-heads are life-like, with intelligent eyes. The weapon strikes normally as a Halberd, as the wolf-heads bite in combat.



Also cute.


> The Legion Standards are made so that there is only one per Legion.



Good thing we only have to fact 35 legions then...  


> The Legion Standards envelop the standard bearer with a fine mist of blood when the horns of war are sounded.



OK, the biting thing was cute.  That's just gross.


----------



## Numion

*Re: Re: How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?*



			
				Crowe9107 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> AC: 60 (+4 Size, +1 Dex, +5 Natural Armor, +8 Bracers of Armor, +42 Insight)*




Shouldn't that be AC 70 instead of 60? It seems you forgot the 10 base...


----------



## mmadsen

> Each Legion is composed of three Regiments, totaling 10,000 men...Each Regiment is composed of three Battalions, totaling 2,622 men...
> 
> In addition to the standard Legion formations, there are the following units that are part of a Legion, totaling 2,126 men.



So the heavy infantry comprises 3 x 2,622 men, or 7866 men.  Then the auxiliaries comprise another 2,126 men.  That's 9,992 men.  I won't look too hard for the other eight...

So, like the Persian Immortals, all these legions are _always_ at 10,000 men, even long after the initial recruitment?  And none of them are young _tyros_, fresh from training?


> 1 Special Operations Battalion: These forces are various levels of different characters and specialists, who have a range of tactical deployments.



Does that mean PCs?  Pretty vague.


> 1 Headquarters Battalion: Various levels of experienced characters, some serve to assist in the administration of the legion, while others are elite bodyguards and so on.



OK.


> 1 Air Assault Company: Various levels of Sorcerers and Wizards, mounted on enchanted Griffons.



We'll want to take those guys out in a hurry.


> 1 Elite Ranger Platoon: Various levels of Rangers.



Let's guess their favorite enemies...


> 1 Elite Knight-Templar Platoon: Various levels of Paladins, Witch Hunters, Inquisitors, and Clerics.



OK, these are the guys we need to hit with our toughest non-Vampires -- our Giants and Wang-Liang probably, with as many Neutral animal allies as possible.  If we can wipe them out, our Vampires might get to do their thing.


> 1 Elite Shadow-Raven Squad: Composed of 4 Valloreans, Rogue 10/Shadow Raven 10; 4 Valloreans, Rogue 10/Shadow Raven 6; 8 Valloreans, Rogue 10/Shadow Raven 2.



And a Shadow-Raven is...?  (Certainly sounds cool.  A unit of Batman clones?)


> 1 Heavy Assault Squad: Composed of the following:
> 1 20th level Cloud Giant Sorcerer
> 1 20th level Cloud Giant Cleric
> 1 20th level Cloud Giant Fighter
> 1 20th level Cloud Giant Ranger
> 1 16th level Cloud Giant Sorcerer
> 1 16th level Cloud Giant Cleric
> 1 16th level Cloud Giant Fighter
> 1 16th level Cloud Giant Ranger
> 2 12th level Cloud Giant Sorcerers
> 6 12th level Cloud Giant Fighters



Ready the Giant Bane and Giant Dread arrows!


> 1 Arcane Communications Squad: (Composed of 4 20th level Sorcerers; 4 16th level Sorcerers; 8 12th level Sorcerers. These are usually distributed to each Battalion, to maintain overall command coordination.



It might be important to wipe these guys out early.  Otherwise we'll keep facing their best and brightest, always teleporting in to kick our behinds for us.


----------



## mmadsen

> The average Vallorean Squad is composed of a Vallorean/Half-Celestial, 16th level Fighter; Aasimar Fighter 4/Wizard 12; Aasimar Cleric 12; Aasimar Rogue 12; Urrgan Ranger 12; Ogre Fighter 12; (6) Vallorean Humans, Fighter 8; (1) Vallorean Human Fighter 4.



Wait, the _average_ Vallorean Squad of 13 soldiers only has six "typical" humans, one young human "tyro", and a mixed bunch of angelic specialists?  A Fighter, a Fighter/Wizard, a Cleric, a Rogue, an Urrgan Ranger, and an Ogre Fighter?  (I keep forgetting what Urrgan are.)


----------



## Crowe9107

*Re: Re: Re: How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?*



			
				Numion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Shouldn't that be AC 70 instead of 60? It seems you forgot the 10 base...
> 
> *




Oops, what was I thinking....*AC: 70* 

It's my first attempt at an epic NPC, the number crunching can get out of hand   

Thanks,

Carl Rowe


----------



## Vurt

SHARK, at some point you're going to want to dry out the weather.  Get your druid force working on control weather round the clock for a month.  Temperatures climb, and keep it dry.  Done slowly, the enemy will simply think a change has come for the better, from slogging through mud.

Use other strategies and tactics to keep them off the fortress until the conditions are just right.  When the entire forest is a tinderbox, you simply set it alight in multiple places all around their forces, and see if the Valloreans are adept at dealing with massive scale forest fires from the INSIDE.


----------



## CRG

> As an added thought, how do two Druids resolve Control Weather spells? One wants it dark, cloudy, and rainy, but still hot and humid; while the other one wants it to be bright, sunny, clear, but cool. It's been awhile since I read that section of rules!




That's easy.  The level 50 epic dude wins those contests with any lesser druids.

I'm not so experienced with building epic-level chars, so its hard for me to develop that.

Now, the fire giants, etc.  I can get behind that...

Might I add that we will probably use a bunch of greater slaying arrows - at 2000 gp a pop to create, they are cheap.


----------



## Volaran

Well, given the last time I DMed, I probably won’t be coming up with any epic level villains for myself for a long time.  Since a commander has been submitted, I’ll try my hand at one of these 30th level specialists ^_^


Lord Gareth

Male Death Knight  Paladin 10/ Blackguard 20

Hit Dice: 30d12
Hit Points: 215
Initiative: +1
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 feet
AC: 36 (10 base, +5 Natural, +13 Full Plate, +7 Shield, +1 Dex)
Attacks: 	Longsword: +41/+41/+36/+31/+26
	Touch: +36/+31/+26/+21
Damage: Longsword: 1d8+21, +2d6 unholy vs good creatures, 1 point of Con Damage (DC 39 to negate)
	Touch:  1d8+5 (DC 39 to half), 1 point of Con Damage (DC 39 to negate)
Face/Reach: 5 ft by 5ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Abyssal Blast, Aura of Despair, Command Undead as 17th level Cleric 16/day, Fear Aura, Fiendish Summoning, Smite Good 2/day (+13 to attack, +40 to damage), Sneak Attack +7d6, Spells, Undead Followers
Special Qualities: Acid Resistance 10, Damage Reduction 15/+1, Detect Good, Poison Use, Dark Blessing, Fiendish Servant, Immunities (standard undead, cold, electricity, fire and polymorphing), Lay on Hands (self and mount only), SR 40, Sonic Resistance 10, Summon Mount, Turn Immunity, Undead Compainion, Undead traits
Saves: Fort +32  Ref +25 Will +30
Abilities:  Str 26 (32)  Dex 12 Con --  Int 15  Wis 22 Cha 30 (36)
Skills: Concentration +15, Diplomacy +34, Handle Animal +34, Religion +35, Intimidate +44, Ride +33
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-by Attack, Sunder, Trample
Epic Feats: Epic Leadership, Great Smiting, Improved Aura of Despair, Negative Energy Burst, Undead Mastery, Unholy Strike, Zone of Animation
Challenge Rating: 33
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Leadership Score: 43
Followers: 1300 1st, 130 2nd, 65 3rd, 32 4th, 16 5th, 8 6th, 4 7th, 2 8th, 1 9th  
Cohorts: 1 26th  
Languages Spoken: Common, Infernal

Spells:  Base DC 16  (4/4/3/2)

Possessions:
+5 Keen Speed Longsword
+5 Sonic Resistance Full Plate
+5 Animated Acid Resistance Large Shield
Belt of Giant Strength +6
Cloak of Charisma +6
Helm of Teleportation
Orb of Storms


Gareth’s origins are long shrouded in mystery.  Some say when Azurukin first came to serve the vampire king Mallenar, Gareth was at his side.  Others claim he is a fallen Vallorean paladin, corrupted by the demi-lich as proof of his loyalty and power to the land of Galleran.  Both theories have merit.  Certainly none can remember a time when the demi-lich did not have this fearsome warrior at his side. Yet time and time again Gareth has proven adept enough at anticipating Vallorean tactics that one would be hard put to determine whether his battle sense comes from centuries of study, or being raised watching them.

The Death Knight Gareth is a demoralizing force on the battlefield.  Deep within plate armor that might have been forged in the underworld for the vile images carved into it, two red eyes burn with a passion few living can match.  Mounted on his Nightmare, Gareth is a truly frightening Galleran leader.

His presence on the field of battle is often preceded by storms appearing from nowhere and battering an army.   Then, in the confusion, he appears.  Gareth is known to lead from the front where his natural powers are at their most effective, and strike quickly at key targets.   His natural immunity to turning had allowed him to crush clerical forces that Galleran’s vampires and weaker undead so often find themselves at the mercy of.  His forces are easily and quickly replenished, as crushed foes rise up almost instantly to fill holes in his own numbers.  In addition, foes near Gareth often feel weakened and shaken, giving his troops a slight advantage against the legendary Vallorean resolve that has been so effective against Mallenar’s nation.


Well, had some time to kill, so I hope you like him….granted I’m not sure he’s in with SHARK world power levels. ^_^


----------



## Numion

Volaran said:
			
		

> *
> Possessions:
> +5 Keen Speed Longsword
> +5 Animated Acid Resistance Large Shield
> *




If the shield is animated, couldn't he swing the longsword with both hands? That would add 5 points to the damage...


----------



## Volaran

Numion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If the shield is animated, couldn't he swing the longsword with both hands? That would add 5 points to the damage...  *




Too true.  I'll amend that ^_^


----------



## Astragoth

this will be very messy indeed... don't think anyone wants to be there when the going get's tough.


Thinking of that, is it possible to demoralize the rank and file enough to get them to go AWOL?

Various tactics to do hat have been proposed already but I would like to add a twist:

systematically assasinate the medium officer core (the sergeants and the lieutanants) that are the officers who are most resposible for morale, and also a absolute necessity to make any tactical idea possible. I don't know if you have the means to do it, but it would achieve two goals: 

a) make defecting for rank and file troops a lot more easier and attractive

b) seriously hamper the tactial effectivness of the force.


----------



## Numion

SHARK said:
			
		

> *
> In Staligrad, the Russiand were outnumbered and outclassed, and yet, they too emerged victorious. *




Outclassed? Probably yes. 
Outnumbered? Are you sure? 

At least they had enough men to execute a _divisions_ worth of their own men during the defense of Stalingrad.


----------



## Maldur

The weather is a factor. ( like stalingrad)
In what part of the year are the legions assaulting? And what is the prevalent weather( druids can influence upto a certain degree)? 

Spring: flooded rivers, monsoon 
Summer: blazing sun, dried fields, low rivers/waterways
Autumn: Rain, swelling rivers, more rain (mud)
Winter: Snow, ice, frozen waterways, more snow

Terrain:

Cliffs/steep hills
Dense forests
Wide rivers
Swamps
What are the natural defenses? Can natural diseases or predators make a difference?

Natural casualties:
When moving large amounts of men and equipment, there gonna be some accidents. How much resources are tied in these accidents? (Medical/funerals/etc) What is the natural wear and tear on legion equipment and how does it effect the march?
How big is the supply line? How many non-combatants? How big a baggage train? If reinforcements are needed how fast will they be here? 

Other questions:
How long do we need to maintain this position? till next winter? a few months? a year? What is the recovery/recruitment speed, when we do get losses? 

Can we change the terrain to suit our needs? (like a cliff ridge of about 30ft along the border?) How long a preparation time do we have? Years? months? days?

What are the effects of gristly displays? (like crucified scouts/civilians, piles of bones/skulls, etc)


----------



## mmadsen

> Try a +1 Distant Shot Mighty Composite Longbow (+4 Str bonus) -- just under 100,000 gp -- with 50 +1 Unholy arrows -- another 18,000 gp.  It can shoot any target within line of sight at no penalty, doing an extra 2d6 damage to Good targets.  That's 1d8+2d6+6 damage, averaging 17 points -- but from miles away.  Get some elite mounted archers on something that can fly, and take Parthian tactics to an epic level!



Another obvious use for Distant Shot bows (or archers with the Distant Shot feat) is sniping.  Killing a handful of enemies doesn't sound like much, but you can turn into a serious morale problem.  US Marine scout-snipers in Vietnam, for instance, made a habit of shooting whoever was carrying the mortar platform.  Pretty soon, no one wanted to be that guy.

Certainly we could make a habit of shooting air cavalry out of the sky.  Or we could take to the sky, and shoot all the specialists on the ground -- Templars, Inquisitors, Witch Hunters, etc.

Enchanted arrows are fairly cheap (as far as magic weapons go), and you can leverage them quite a bit.  A batch of Unholy Power arrows may be expensive, but a dozen Distant-Shot archers can take out a high-level Champion from a mile away in one round.


----------



## CRG

Can I super-size those bow and arrows, along with the soda?

Fire giant - base CR 10...add on a few levels of fighter, maybe order of the bow or something...make it a huge composite long bow...and flaming, for the heck of it...


----------



## Leopold

what about the gods of evil in SHARK's world? What about them? What can we count on them for? Is this last bastion of evil on this continent? Is there anymore? Is it time for the lords of the underdark to play their hand and come forward? Can we count on any avatarish help here?

Also, the clerics or priests we are using could probably dish up something nasty. If only we knew about the pantheon that SHARK uses. Anyone got a listing of it? Can SHARK provide us some info?


----------



## mmadsen

> Can I super-size those bow and arrows, along with the soda?



The Giants are already melee monsters.  Do we want to play to their strengths or spend our resources rounding them out?


----------



## Tiberius

Given the resources at our disposal, we should be able to scrouge up one Necklace of Prayer Beads with a Bead of Summons.  I don't think an evil deity would mind being summoned to annihilate 35 legions of troops.   Assuming, of course, that such items exist in SHARK's game.

Given the lack of resurrection spells, area effect death spells would seem to be in order.  Circle of Death might not be so good for our purposes, given the high HD of your average legionaire, but Wail of the Banshee as well as epic spells based off of the Slay seed would be great.

How closely together do the men march?  Are their formations tight enough that opening up Gates to the Lower (or Negative Material) Planes beneath their feet would be worthwhile?  Hmmm... we could get rid of the standard-bearers (and their standards) this way, at least for a while.

-Tiberius


----------



## sword-dancer

Hello SHARK

QUOTE]_Originally posted by SHARK _
[*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK *[/QUOTE]



> In Staligrad, the Russiand were outnumbered and outclassed, and yet, they too emerged victorious



Outclassed Yes
Outnumbered No IIRC the seventh Army stood against Armygroups, stalin had send in parts of his strategic reserve.
Or remember Demjansk whrere a corps of six divisions hold 5 sowjet armies for the winter .

First of all for low level priests and such, raise the deadd of the last few centuries from their grave.
And use them to attack smaller valnorren forces.

Even if the valnorreans didn`t need food(ähem every day in a campaign living from MREs, Men have recieved medails for less ).
They need other things, weapons and armour, spellcomponents, tools, miscellny equipment and *shoes* .
What if you use a bit magic to send bugs , worms or other vermin on the shoes, or let them root.
Any Infantry without good shoes  in rough terrain had a problem.
Another point is the water?
Don`t poison it, made it undrinkable through dirt and pollution.
Pigs or better their products are very useful for it.

And negotiate, try to send ambassodors to negotiate for surrender to buy time.
Declare to the valnorreans every unit who didn`t hold on the rules of war isn`t considered enemy soldiers but criminals and respnded accordingly.

Train your troops fast and hard, btw why there are no better forces available in the fortress?
Use gold, gems whatever to hire mercs to operate in the valnorrean back.
Pay good prices for valnorrean equipment, their helmes may be very useful.
Infiltrate the marketenders, a little bit of rumours of how powerful etc etc your enem is...
Conjuring Demons/Devils etc in great style and send them in?
BTW how long must the fortress hold until reinforcements are expected?
Which gods are in the pantheons, which could help which are enemy


----------



## Andor

There are at least two natural resources here that no one has tapped yet. 

One: The cities. If they are politically expendable, convert one into vampire chow. The legions can deal with 600 vampires. They may have more trouble with 600 vampires and 120,000 vampire spawn.  

Two: The Magma cauldron. Sink a plate of adamantium inscribed with a teleport circle into the magma. This will result in a 10' diameter column of magma pouring from the sky. Even for a vallorean, that's gotta sting. Use regular teleports to dump a ton of magma on those damm standards. Use teleport enchanted arrows to teleport highlevel enemies _into_ the magma pit. Ideally just over an antimagic sphere. The magma cauldrom should be stocked with suitably fire resistant nasty things.

Nasty trap idea: Leak information about a high level strategy meeting among the leaders of the fortress. The room the meeting is in is sheilded, but has a gap in it's scrying protections. The ideal tactical position to ambush the meeting has a concealed Teleport circle under it. The teleport circle drops the commandos (No saving throw for teleport circle) just over the lava pit. Ideally into an anti-magic zone. Fire proofed and flying defenders in the volcano are armed with disjunction spells. Then they amuse themselves by dropping really big rocks onto the commandos to push them deeper into the lava. 

Defender priorities. Neutralize the Vallorean special ops teams.
Then deal with the legions. 

Tactics: The Vallorean reliance on squad level magic (Magic MREs) makes them vulnerable to raids that target magic. An invisible flying commando with detect magic and a staff of disjunctions could make an entire company really unhappy. Wash rinse repeat.

Must destroy or neutralize the standards. Dropping magma on them will only work for about a day, before countermeasures will be in place. Suggest teleporting giant squads to do snatch and run teleport raids. Grab standard and bearer (A grapple trained giant will have little difficulty overcomming a bearer. The standard grabber will have magic defenses out the wazoo. Then teleport back and pitch them in the magma. 

Once the standards are out of the way undead become far more effective. Incoporeal undead are to be prefered. Ideally a self spawning type like shadows or wraiths that lurk underground and drain and convert squad by squad. Use tactics that scatter the troops before sending in the undead. 

-Andor


----------



## Leopold

why not have the volcano erupt and scorch the sky and ground with ash? The monsters don't really need to breathe (undead) so by all means the valoreans are going to have a heckuva time dealing with the poisonous fumes and gasses


----------



## Maldur

SHARK,
After about 200 posts over 5 pages, I would like to know what you think of these suggestions. Are we on the right track? What ideas do you like? or do you not like? Which ideas should be expanded? Have you decided upon a defense strategy? Do you need more 'exotic' suprises?  

When are you gonna use it? Or is this a very clever ruse, to see how we think your world works? (sorry couldn't resist) 

btw: the Mental image of your 'half celestial' legions advancing is very impresive. It seems somewhat like the armies of the light in the french comic "Cronicals of the Black moon".


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Hey Maldur! The suggestions are great! I hope some people will devise the stats and equipment of the various cohorts and elite support units that follow the various commanders and generals. In addition, of course, to any spells, special magic items, traps, and strange, mutated monsters to unleash in the day of battle!

Indeed, the Half-Celestials are quite impressive. My wife reminded me, however, that I made an error in the post that I made about the forces. A particular segment of the Vallorean population--are Half-Celestials. Approximately 10% or so. Of the polulation as a whole. The Legions, by extension, would not contain as many Half-Celestials as I described, because half of the Half-Celestial Population would be female, as well as children and so on. Thus, they would be distinctly more unusual, as would the Aasimars, for they represent by blood, about 25% of the whole population. Standard humans with the divine blood diluted over the course of thousands of years make up the vast majority of the population. Still, though, some of them are present throughout the ranks of the Legions, and they are certainly impressive!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Maldur

Im working on a description of the ogre academy.

It might be a bit big to post here

Ill recap here and send the full descriptor to SHARK!


----------



## boer

As previously pointed out, this task can be divided into 2 things. Defending against a commando raid and defending against an army. About the commando raid I don't have any suggestion, but against the army I do have some.

I would like to use a tactic that was used in the Alps in WOI. That is, dropping avalanches on top of that army. First make shure that you're the one who controlls the weather. Make with the weather a ring of hard winter around your fortress and make shure that the mountaintops are covered with loads of snow. Then when the whole army is in a valley, preferably asleep, use something like soundburst (in WOI they used mortar-shells) to create avalanches. I don't think the common goodie-good guys can outrun an avalanche or survive having 4 meters of snow on top of them.

Of course this is the ideal moment to send in some (expendable) forces so the few survivers can't rescue those burried ones. Hell, you might even send in a few BEFORE the avalanche.

Also, this is an ideal moment to send your petdragon on a raid to kill off those 1600 odd wagons supplying the now reduced army. One good aimed breath on each wagon will do just fine..

Now alot of those goodie-good-doers are burried alive and those who survived only have the equipment they had picked up while running from that avalanche. Might be a good time to send in your epic forces to make shure their champions didn't survive either.


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Indeed, Boer, many different kinds of environmental hazards can be used to supplement the defenses quite well!

I would also imagine that many of you all here can design the various cohorts and such, as you desire. Be creative! I would be interested to see what many of you come up with. I have put off this particular scenario as I am swallowed up in work, so there is time for people to continue contributing thoughts and ideas.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## mmadsen

> There are at least two natural resources here that no one has tapped yet.
> 
> One: The cities. If they are politically expendable, convert one into vampire chow. The legions can deal with 600 vampires. They may have more trouble with 600 vampires and 120,000 vampire spawn.



This has come up multiple times, Andor.  It's a good idea; it's just been "tapped" already.  


> Use regular teleports to dump a ton of magma on those damm standards. Use teleport enchanted arrows to teleport highlevel enemies _into_ the magma pit.



Interesting.


----------



## DarkDragon

For the leader, I would have gone Paragon Infernal with levels of Blackguard myself, but that is just me.

How badly do we want to win?
If bad enough, then make one of the high level followers a Shadowdancer. You then start systematically start creating a legion of shadows under your control.
Take out one of the cities, or both if you don't care, now you  have 100,000 shadows.When the legion goes to sleep attack from the ground, five shadows to every man staying completly silent and then move tent to tent.
I don't care what level you are but you can not deal with a million shadows trying to wipe you out.
Start opening gates back into the Valleron homeland and taking out cities there as well.


----------



## mmadsen

> If bad enough, then make one of the high level followers a Shadowdancer. You then start systematically start creating a legion of shadows under your control.



Someone mentioned the Shadow solution earlier, and I assume it would work well, but is it any better than the Vampire solution?


----------



## The Iron Mark

How much area do you think this army takes up? I want to know how big I must make my Epic Army Killing Spell.


----------



## Tiberius

The Iron Mark said:
			
		

> *How much area do you think this army takes up? I want to know how big I must make my Epic Army Killing Spell. *




Big-radius, big-damage epic spells have correspondingly large spellcraft difficulties.  I was designing one epic spell for my druid to use to scour cities from the land, and ended up with a Spellcraft DC of 315 or so.  IIRC, it did something on the order of 60d6 damage from three different energy types in a 1-mile radius spread, required ritual help, included a backlash, cost XP, and had a casting time of 100 days 10 minutes.  It's not worth trying to take out the whole army at once.

-Tiberius


----------



## The Iron Mark

Remember, we can use the gold from our 50th level commander to have some +200 or so Spellcraft item. Are we restricted in how much money we can dump into one item for our troops, commander, etc.?


----------



## The Iron Mark

Also, do you think a cone or a spread would be better at mass destruction?


----------



## mmadsen

> Big-radius, big-damage epic spells have correspondingly large spellcraft difficulties.



Well, Rain of Fire, at DC 50, should kill most ground troops, shouldn't it?  It hits a two-mile radius, doing 1 hp/round (for 20 hours).  How long does it take ground troops to run two miles?  Twelve minutes?  That's 120 rounds.  And the survivors have probably left behind equipment and supplies.


> I was designing one epic spell for my druid to use to scour cities from the land, and ended up with a Spellcraft DC of 315 or so.  IIRC, it did something on the order of 60d6 damage from three different energy types in a 1-mile radius spread, required ritual help, included a backlash, cost XP, and had a casting time of 100 days 10 minutes.  It's not worth trying to take out the whole army at once.



Unfortunately, I think the epic spell system is flawed, particularly in including the DC-10 base for _each_ seed combined in a spell.  This makes the combination of two 1st-level spells as complex as a 12th-level spell, not a 2nd-level spell.

If you want a powerful spell then, you don't want to use multiple spell seeds; you want to pump up a single one.  An epic fireball might be:

Energy (DC 19)
Increase Range +400% (+8) -- from 300 ft. to 1500 ft.
Increase Area +400% (+16) -- from 20-ft radius sphere to 100 ft.
Increase Casting Time, 10 minutes (-20)

That's DC 23 -- pretty darn easy -- for a 10d6 Fireball with a 100-ft. radius with a 1500-ft. range -- assuming that Increase Area increases the _radius_ linearly, not the _area_, and assuming a spherical area of effect costs no more than a bolt.

If we bump up the area even more, we can get a 200-ft radius for DC 43.  Each extra 20 ft. of radius adds four to the DC.


----------



## DarkDragon

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Someone mentioned the Shadow solution earlier, and I assume it would work well, but is it any better than the Vampire solution? *




Much better, as it only takes rounds to make new shadows and not days to make vampires.
If the legions are camped in tents, say ten men per tent. You send fifty shadows into each tent, coming from the underground completely silent. You now have sixty shadows in each tent. There should be nothing that the legions can do, if this is timed right, Wipe them all out at the same time. This will only take minutes.
Now you have a couple of hundred thousand shadows to deploy against anything still living.
Also keep our high level clerics producing undead for cannon fodder, more vampires are a good thing, create greater undead is nice.


----------



## The Iron Mark

I'm thinking of an idea for the commander but I need to know how I should get my base ability scores. Roll dice? If so, how many? Or is it point buy? If so, how many points and is it weighted? Or do he just get all eighteens because he's the boss and he just that good?


----------



## Nail

boer said:
			
		

> *As previously pointed out, this task can be divided into 2 things. Defending against a commando raid and defending against an army*




Gaaaah!  What a monster thread!  20 posts/page, average ~700 words per post!  Aaaack!  I'm readin' ferkin' novels here!

....anyway: I'm not sure why yer even talking about troop deployment.  On either side.  T' me, whoever fields troops *first* => looses.   Mooks may hold ground (maybe), but in a SHARK-esque world, they can't capture it.  An' remember, in SHARK's world, anything under 10th level is a mook.  (.....Hell, 20th level.)

The war (such as it is) would be decided by the epic level types.   (60th level!  Yipes!!) The troops (even the 10th level ones) are jus' window dressing.

An' as 3e D&D is unquestionably offense dominated, the only way you'll win is if you attack.  ......Defend, an' be slaughtered.    

To th' offense goes th' spoils.

Ideas: Hmmmfff.   Jus' kill 'em quicker than they kill you.


----------



## The Iron Mark

Is anything from Dragon allowed?


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Dice rolling conventions are the standard, though higher stat-assignments/point buys for elite leaders and special troops is fine.

Dragon stuff is ok too!

Books indeed Nail!

Well, considering that characters that are 20th level and above recieve no experience whate so ever for opponents under 12th level, I don't believe in wasting time with any encounters with creatures under 6th level. Once in awhile is ok, but after a short time, it merely becomes an exercise in dice-rolling. Thus, I make some assumptions about the world, and the various opponents. They tend to grow in experience, and field hard-charging formations just like the "good-guys." The stakes are high, and there is no particular mandate that says that the "good-guys" should automatically win, nor should they automatically have it easy!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Crowe9107

Well, it certainly is a challenge. Given the circumstances, conventional measures will not work for the forces of evil. The average level of experience for a Valorean Squad is 10th level (not factoring in ECLs for templates and races). The Average Galleran Squad is 2nd level. It is quite conceivable to me that an average Valorean Squad could confront an entire Galleran Century of 80 men and expect to survive with no casualties. The Valoreans have a minimum of 35 major artifacts at their disposal. The numbers are staggering, I have read that in the time of Nero, the combined legions of Rome numbered 28 Legions of between 4800 and 6000 men. This encounter is twice that, and is not even the main event!. The situation in some ways reminds me of the closing of WWII, the Allies at their peak, combining numbers and resources with newly gained battlefield experience, while Germany relies on a handful of crack troops and raw recruits gained from the very young and the very old.

A challenge indeed. And if it was not, SHARK would not need our input.

Conventional tactics will not work. Therefore unconventional measures must be used. Try not to think of this so much as Army X versus Army Y, think of this as Kobolds versus an Adventure party, except that we don't have numerical superiority either, therefore our tactics must be even better. A second level fighter has about 14hps, and at best an AC of 19, therefore, melee combat should be avoided. Ranged attacks and reach attacks from behind cover will do us best. A 12th level fireball centered in a Gammorean Phalanx will kill 40 of 80 men (assuming a 10x8 formation) from a range of 880ft., so cover and dipersement should be extensively used.

We must think very carefully on this, we aren't supposed to win, but I think their victory should come with a terrible price.

If I still breathed mortal air, my last breath would be to defy thee!
---Azurukin

Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## mmadsen

> Given the circumstances, conventional measures will not work for the forces of evil.



The good news is that we have some very unconventional forces, namely Vampires.


> The average level of experience for a Valorean Squad is 10th level (not factoring in ECLs for templates and races). The Average Galleran Squad is 2nd level. It is quite conceivable to me that an average Valorean Squad could confront an entire Galleran Century of 80 men and expect to survive with no casualties.



If it comes down to a square fight, "It's game over, man."


> The situation in some ways reminds me of the closing of WWII, the Allies at their peak, combining numbers and resources with newly gained battlefield experience, while Germany relies on a handful of crack troops and raw recruits gained from the very young and the very old.



I like your analogy!  Only it doesn't fill me with courage...


----------



## Crowe9107

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *I like your analogy!  Only it doesn't fill me with courage... *




Fear not, Mr. Madsen, sometimes desperation breeds inspiration. Going with my WWII analogy, the Galleran equivalent of the Bazooka.

Heavy Crossbow [You might want to make it +1 Distance or +1 Far Distance for more experienced troops]. 50gp. The Range Increment is the key, 120ft, equivalent to a Ballista and outranging Long and Composite Bows, also, easy to use.

Payload: +1 Arrows of Spell Storing Cost 8,000 per 50 (160gp ea)
Suggested Spell Loads: Entangle, Web, Obscuring Mist, Fireball.

Tactics: Shoot and Scoot. Fire a delaying spell, then follow up with a damage spell and run like hell before they figure out where you are.  This is best done from a concealed location from extreme range (a direct hit is not essential). Best accomplished by a Sorceror with True Strike and Expeditious Retreat, though ANY class can use a crossbow. Fired at the front of columns, these could cause significant delays. Ambush sites should be monitored to TP in strike teams that deal with any forward scouts (as well as having conventional assests in place to ambush scouts).

As the Spell Storing isn't limited by caster level, these could have been pre-charged by high-level casters and added to warstocks (20min Entangles? 10d6 Fireballs?). Volley fired, by a group of 10 (5 bolts apiece), could produce significant casualties.

Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## mmadsen

> Gaaaah!  What a monster thread!  20 posts/page, average ~700 words per post!  Aaaack!  I'm readin' ferkin' novels here!



Nail makes a good point.  This thread is getting a bit unwieldly.  Perhaps we can summarize the few key points we've come up with so far?  Or we could divide the topic up into mini-threads dealing with separate subjects: high-level magic vs. high-level magic, etc.


----------



## optimizer

Howdy!



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Nail makes a good point.  This thread is getting a bit unwieldly.  Perhaps we can summarize the few key points we've come up with so far?  Or we could divide the topic up into mini-threads dealing with separate subjects: high-level magic vs. high-level magic, etc. *




I have been off-line since Friday.  Has anyone doen more with summarizing or dividing up this topic?

Thanks.

Mike


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Moderators--could you please archive this thread?

I appreciate it. Thankyou for your consideration.

I will start Volume II for continued discussion.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Moderators--someone? Anyone? Can you please Archive this thread? Thankyou very much for your consideration.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Darkness

SHARK said:
			
		

> *Greetings!
> 
> Moderators--someone? Anyone? Can you please Archive this thread? Thankyou very much for your consideration.
> 
> Semper Fidelis,
> 
> SHARK *



Note to everyone: Please _report_ a post in which you ask us to do something; we can't be anywhere at once, you know. 

Edit - ok; thread successfully archived.

EDIT BY HENRY - THREAD CONTINUED AT http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20752&page=1&pp=25


----------

