# Advice for starting out



## doppelganger (Feb 28, 2008)

I'm going through the first adventure and preparing to run it. I see that it starts in a tavern. I'm looking for reasons for the PCs to be in the tavern and to agree with the task proposed to them. What did you guys present to your players to get them to that fateful meeting?


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## Primitive Screwhead (Feb 29, 2008)

I followed the suggestion in the module and had my players design characters that all were from Gates Pass and had ties to the resistance. That made it a simple to get the ball rolling.

It helps that my group buys into the 'work with the DM on this' when it comes to following the given plotlines.   Mostly


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## doppelganger (Feb 29, 2008)

Primitive Screwhead said:
			
		

> I followed the suggestion in the module and had my players design characters that all were from Gates Pass and had ties to the resistance.



What kinds of ties did they actually have?


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## Chimera (Feb 29, 2008)

Really only enough to justify being there (I'm one of PS's players).  Certainly you don't need to have everything specificied in great detail just yet.  Your PCs are young punks just starting out while an army is knocking on the city door.  Isn't that enough?

Unless your players are the crass uncooperative actor stereotypes who demand to know their motivation before every scene; or uncooperative "why are we playing this" type players, they should accept the basic outline of the story and be willing to go with it.

Hell, I admit that in the first couple of sessions, not having played an adventure path before, I occasionally (jokingly) sang "I've been working on the Railroad" every time we got led along the path.  But eventually I settled down and accepted that this was the way it worked and that I needed to go with the flow.


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## doppelganger (Feb 29, 2008)

Chimera said:
			
		

> Really only enough to justify being there (I'm one of PS's players).  Certainly you don't need to have everything specificied in great detail just yet.  Your PCs are young punks just starting out while an army is knocking on the city door.  Isn't that enough?



No. Not really. Not for me and not for them. 


			
				Chimera said:
			
		

> Unless your players are the crass uncooperative actor stereotypes who demand to know their motivation before every scene; or uncooperative "why are we playing this" type players, they should accept the basic outline of the story and be willing to go with it.
> 
> Hell, I admit that in the first couple of sessions, not having played an adventure path before, I occasionally (jokingly) sang "I've been working on the Railroad" every time we got led along the path.  But eventually I settled down and accepted that this was the way it worked and that I needed to go with the flow.



I don't want my players to have to settle down and go with the flow. I don't think of them as 'crass uncooperative actor stereotypes' or 'uncooperative "why are we playing this" type players', but they do like to fit in with the game world. I want them to have fun and keep coming back for more. I certainly don't want them singing sarcastic songs to me while in play. That's why I'm asking questions before I start them off.


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## Chimera (Feb 29, 2008)

Ok, settle down now.  I didn't mean to offend.

If you read through the first module, and follow the idea through the next ones, you will see that there is a huge amount of sense for the PCs to be a part of the resistance and thus, have a firm motivation for following the AP.

The specifics of the ties are really not all that important at first precisely because the PCs are going to be leaving the city and thus, not dealing with those elements beyond what you chose to make of them in the first couple of sessions.


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## doppelganger (Feb 29, 2008)

Chimera said:
			
		

> Ok, settle down now.  I didn't mean to offend.
> 
> If you read through the first module, and follow the idea through the next ones, you will see that there is a huge amount of sense for the PCs to be a part of the resistance and thus, have a firm motivation for following the AP.
> 
> The specifics of the ties are really not all that important at first precisely because the PCs are going to be leaving the city and thus, not dealing with those elements beyond what you chose to make of them in the first couple of sessions.




Fair enough.  What portions of the first two adventures did you find to be 'railroady'? What do you think could have been done to improve them?


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## Chimera (Feb 29, 2008)

double post.  Board very slow today.


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## Chimera (Feb 29, 2008)

doppelganger said:
			
		

> Fair enough.  What portions of the first two adventures did you find to be 'railroady'? What do you think could have been done to improve them?




It seemed railroady to me probably only because in my very long D&D career, I've almost never played modules and certainly have not played Adventure Paths.  I've played almost exclusively homebrews, or homebrew adventures in published settings.

So in the beginning, yes I'd sing the railroad song when we got to the parts where we knew that we had to do X, or go to Y in order to follow the AP.  I know that Primitive Screwhead didn't exactly appreciate it and that he was doing his best to provide options.  I didn't mean it as offensive, it was just my reaction to "Well in order to get to Module N, we need to do X, but if it was just me, I'd say we do something completely different".


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## RangerWickett (Mar 1, 2008)

The easiest solution is to ask each player to make a character who already wants to defeat Ragesia. Barring that, I would ask each player to come up with a reason why they want to get to Seaquen, and hope that by the time they get there, they've got a dislike of the Ragesians and want to fight back.

Maybe they are a mage and want to avoid the Ragesian scourge, and they see Seaquen as a safe haven. Maybe they actively want to join the resistance to fight Ragesia. Maybe they're planning to be a spy for the Ragesians. Maybe a sibling or lover fled there first and they're going to protect her. Or they might already be a student from Seaquen who was in Gate Pass on a different mission and wants to get back quickly.

Also, play up the fact that the Ragesians are able to cover most of the paths between Gate Pass and Seaquen, so that the best hope is to take the somewhat dangerous but not heavily-guarded mountain road to Innenotdar. There is the option that they might try to team up with the Shahalesti and avoid Innenotdar by going through the elvish nation, which would result in skipping adventure 2, but as long as each PC has a reason to want to go to Seaquen, you can pick back up with the rest of the campaign saga, and maybe retool adventure 2 for inclusion somewhere later.

I'm curious, Chimera, what sorts of things you thought the module was too restrictive on. I admit, it was my first written module, and if I could redo it, I'd want to loosen it up a bit. Maybe adventure 2 too.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Mar 1, 2008)

Primarily Adventure 2 was were the singing came in... Altho, since Chimera plays the Bard....   


The forced use of the single road made it difficult to avoid this appearance. Also my group is limited to 4 hour sessions every month, so I tend to trim a bit in order to actually get the plot line moving. If we were meeting for 6 hours every 2 weeks I would be leaving the doors open for off-track activities while still providing a strong incentive for the heroes to follow the module in game. This would allow for the development of the characters ties to the world and have character motivations to drive them.
 If this were the case, the initial reasons would have to stiffer. Perhaps the thought of a mother stuck in Gate's Pass and at risk of being killed by the Ragesian's would drive a character forward. Theres more room to manuever when your game session doesn't frame itself around [combat + seque scene + boss encounter]...which is about all you can do in a 4 hour span with how long some of the battles take real time.

 Out of game, as a player I would look at the investment the DM has made into my night of entertainment and would 'settle down' and have fun.  Since I prefer hard copy modules and printed battlemaps, each module runs me about $40... something I am happy to do because I enjoy running games and enjoy the company of the group. Doing otherwise strikes me as very 'crass and uncooperative'

But..after typing all that: If you have the time to develop the reasons the PCs are in the fight, the more detail the better...as at some point they will return to Gate's Pass. My group will miss out on being 'homecoming heroes' since I don't have enough material to support that sort of scene. 

 [sidetrek], The singing didn't bother me, as I was feeling pretty much the same thing. Its hard to present an appearance of PC freedom when you have a single road to follow for three sessions...  not to mention my table is generally full of 'meta-game' sillyness anyway. [sidetrek]


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## Chimera (Mar 1, 2008)

Um....what he said.

At the end of the day, I don't really have any problems accepting the proposition 'This is the Adventure Path, please follow it'.

Having had the last two campaigns I tried to run go down in screaming agony because of uncooperative and outright belligerent players, I have a deeper appreciation of what it takes to run a game and how far cooperation and willing buy-in goes to make things smoother and a whole lot more fun for everyone involved.


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## amethal (Mar 6, 2008)

In my campaign, all of the PCs are spellcasters except for one. (And that one has since multiclassed into cleric   )

I asked the non-spellcaster to be a member of the resistance, to which the player agreed. I removed Torrent, and used the PC as the resistance representative at the meeting.

The fact that the others were spellcasters and fearful of the Ragesians gave them an incentive to attend the meeting in the hope of getting resistance aid

They readily agreed to help out the resistance as it meant leaving the city and heading for the "safety" of Seaquen.

I disagree with the "railroad" objections in respect of adventure 2. The geography of the region and the location of enemy armies means the most sensible route is through the Fire Forest. If you are going through the forest, then it makes sense to follow the road.

Once they are in the forest, the PCs get caught up in a three way conflict between the "fire spirit", the fey and the bearded devil. Its up to them which side they support (my PCs changed sides twice during the adventure, managing to support each faction for at least some of the time).

The only thing they can't do is "give up and go home". Once they enter the forest they have to resolve the conflict one way or another. I suppose some might see that as railroading. 

Personally I'm fine with the idea that adventurers sometimes get themselves into a hole through no fault of their own, and then have to figure out how best to get themselves out of it.


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## Joshgenti (Mar 13, 2008)

I'm in CrazyEights group.  

We had 4 people starting out.  An elven soldier on loan by the Sha army to Gate Pass. A orc monk, who was a former initiate in training to become an inquisitor.  A Rogue from Seaquen, I don't remember why he was there, probably it involved the thief's guild.  And my character, a Shugenja from Sindar, there because his mentor told him to go.

We had no trouble following the plot hook.  My Shugenja worshiped the Tidereaver Kracken & Torrent did as well.  So we hit it off immediately.  The Orc had a HUGE beef with the new management of Regasia.  And the Rogue wanted to help the resistance in general.  The only problem we had was with the Elf, who wanted to go to Sha.  But we resolved that by basically making a copy of the plans information we found.  Letting the elves take one copy to Sha & we took the second copy towards Seaquen.  We meet our 5th player on our way out of Gate Pass.  He was a Wu Jen who had been captured by bandits who were about to hand him over to Regasian agents.

In hind sight, I'd recommend playing up the fleeing from Regasia as spell casters.  That really gives a feel for how the Regasians operate & foreshadows what happens towards the end of the first Chapter, at Haden's house.  Also, it shows that not all Regasians are evil.  Just the Inquisition.

Now if only we can get through Chapter 3 & figure out what's going on in Dawsen!


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