# The Great Anti-Hero Showdown(Nominations Open)



## warlord (Sep 11, 2005)

Hey everyone else is doing it so why not me. We'll need whatever 100-some number of anti-heroes that the all the other threads had so nominate away.


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## Falkus (Sep 11, 2005)

Ooh, you mustn't forget Max Payne.


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 11, 2005)

2. The Punisher (Marvel comics, movies)





Frank Castle appeared in the Hero thread, but he's far more appropriately placed here. He's a murderer, a serial killer, though fortunately he only goes after the bad guys. Of course, exactly what constitutes a bad guy to this one man judge, jury, and executioner is exactly what makes him so feared by all. Drug dealers, mafiosos- but how about the guy who steals from the register at work? 

3. The Man With No Name (Spaghetti Westerns)





This guy... well, he has no name. He roams the lawless territories of the west, seemingly only out for himself. He has a conscience, though, that makes itself manifest from time to time, and he has been known to ride to the rescue of the odd damsel in distress.

4. Snake Plissken (Escape From New York, Escape From L.A.)





This guy's survived so many near death scenarios that everyone is surprised to see him still around and kicking. A complete and utter self-serving bastard, he nevertheless usually ends up doing the right thing- if only because it's the exact opposite from what the people he works for (who are even more lowdown than he is) want him to do.

5. Solid Snake (Metal Gear series)





This guy's the best there is at what he does... and you all thought that was Wolverine's shtick. 

A tough as nails, hardcore soldier, who has been used and abused by the government he works for time and again without asking questions. He's recently gone rogue, though, and is even more dangerous than ever.


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## ThirdWizard (Sep 11, 2005)

*6. Rick Deckard*







Rick Deckard (Blade Runner)

He should need no explaination.


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 11, 2005)

7. Elric of Melnibone





The albino prince of a decadent and decaying kingdom, Elric roams the world, combatting evils he sees before him. He is aided by the soul-stealing sword Stormbringer, which he requires to sustain his strength. Stormbringer makes no distinction between friend and foe, and thus Elric is eternally haunted.


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## Darthjaye (Sep 11, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> 7. Elric of Melnibone
> 
> The albino prince of a decadent and decaying kingdom, Elric roams the world, combatting evils he sees before him. He is aided by the soul-stealing sword Stormbringer, which he requires to sustain his strength. Stormbringer makes no distinction between friend and foe, and thus Elric is eternally haunted.




"Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!!!"

Great choice. 

8.  Seth Gecko (From Dusk to Dawn)

Borderline psycho killer with a over that line brother who ends up being the hero to the very girl, who along with her family, he kidnapped after....well you all know and have seen the movie by now.  Those of you who haven't....rent it.  Nuff said.

(Anyone got a good pisture of him feel free to throw it up here please.)


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 11, 2005)

Don't nobody be forgetting Doomsday.


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 11, 2005)

Darthjaye said:
			
		

> 8.  Seth Gecko (From Dusk to Dawn)
> (Anyone got a good pisture of him feel free to throw it up here please.)




Asked and answered-


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 11, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Don't nobody be forgetting Doomsday.




Is Doomsday an antihero? I thought he was just an out-and-out villain. I'm not that familiar with the character, though, so I could be wrong.

That does bring to mind another guy, though:

9. Lobo





The last Czarnian- last because he killed all of his people- this guy has somehow managed to do some good in the universe, though not for a lack of trying to do otherwise. A teenaged clone of his even joined the superhero group Young Justice for a time.


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 11, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Is Doomsday an antihero? I thought he was just an out-and-out villain. I'm not that familiar with the character, though, so I could be wrong.



D'OH! Your right, I'm wrong. I thought this was just a villain thread.


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 11, 2005)

Nicholas Cage as Yuri Orlov in Lord of War:


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 11, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> D'OH! Your right, I'm wrong. I thought this was just a villain thread.




Yeah- it's a fine line, and we might should possibly have some clarification/guidelines. I was thinking of nominating Deadshot, for instance, on the basis of his recent miniseries, but since he's mostly (currently and previously) been a villain, I don't know that he counts.

Just wasn't sure about Doomsday, though. Like I said, I'm not that familiar with the character, so I wasn't sure if he'd ever evolved out of villainous mode or not. 

There are a couple here that are outside of comics, but I have a feeling we'll mostly see comic characters... if only because of that whole trend in the 80s towards "antiheroes". I'm wracking my brains trying to think of others outside of comics.

Would John Rambo count? I'm thinking of Rambo in "First Blood" and not the later movies.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 11, 2005)

Karl Edward Wagner's KANE


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## warlord (Sep 11, 2005)

9. Faith the Vampire Slayer
10. James Howlett aka Logan aka Wolverine
11. Spike (Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel)

EDIT: Since people seem to think Doomsday and Lobo are villians I'll render their nominations void.


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## trancejeremy (Sep 11, 2005)

Riddick from Pitch Black/Chronicles of Riddick


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 11, 2005)

13. "Dirty" Harry Callahan





A tough-as-nails SF cop who isn't afraid to break the rules in order to see that justice is served.


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## Fast Learner (Sep 11, 2005)

I'm unfortunately too short on time right now to create bios and find pics, so I won't number these, but instead will suggest them as good non-comic book anti-heroes that others might like: The Bride from _Kill Bill_, Vincent Vega (Travolta) from _Pulp Fiction_, Jules Winnfield (Jackson) from _Pulp Fiction_, Leon from _The Professional_, Butch Cassidey and The Sundance Kid, Godzilla, Capitan Jack Sparrow from _Pirates of the Caribbean_, Gollum/Smeagol, Riddick from _Pitch Black_ (more than _Chronicles_, where there was less anti), Al Swearengen in _Deadwood_, Sawyer in _Lost_, Fafhrd and Gray Mouser, Sam Spade from _The Maltese Falcon_, and many, many more. Americans seem to love anti-heroes.


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## warlord (Sep 11, 2005)

14. Eric Draven (The Crow)

EDIT: How do I post pics?


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## warlord (Sep 11, 2005)

15. Alex DeLarge (A Clockwork Orange)


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## Mad Hatter (Sep 12, 2005)

*16. Raziel* from the Legacy of Kain series






*Biography:*  He used to be a mighty and pure defender of the people against the vampire plague,  until he was killed and made a vampire himself.  Raziel was a loyal lieutenant until Kain threw him into a waterfall (water is death to vampires in the universe).  The Elder God brought him back, twisted and disfigured and sent him on his merry way.  Raziel soon found out the truth of his perversion and sought to destroy the one who made him what he was, Kain.  The freedom of Nosgoth is incidental to his plan of vengeance at first. Serious spoilers here for those who haven't beaten the game.  This is a pitiful summary.  The guys who made the game are awesome.  [sblock] Raziel discovers that when he was a Seraphim, he did some pretty horrible things.  So he does the whole redemption thing and discovers that he is the Soul Reaver, which is why it has such an affinity for him.  He was meant to be Kain right hand weapon (literally).  He eventually makes the decision to become the Soul Reaver and return Nosgoth to its former glory where both vampire and humans can live[/sblock]

*17. Kain* from the Legacy of Kain series






*Biography:*  Kain was a nobleman destined to become one of the Guardians of the Pillars.  Before that could happen he was made a vampire and the balance was thrown off.  He made Raziel what he was.  I don't want to give away the plot to those who haven't beaten the game so here are spoiler tags.  Read at your discretion.[sblock]  Awesome plot twists that I don't even begin to do justice to in this pitiful summary of events.  Kain is the balance in Nosgoth, and after Raziel sacrifices himself and becomes the Soul Reaver, he sets about to return Nosgoth to its former glory.[/sblock]


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2005)

18. Godzilla

King of the Monsters, Godzilla was created in 1954 during atomic testing in the South Pacific. Since then, he has annihilated various Japanese cities in a number of timelines, fought a menagerie of other giant monsters, and been beloved by millions.







Demiurge out.


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 12, 2005)

warlord said:
			
		

> EDIT: How do I post pics?




Go to a place like Imageshack, and it will let you upload a picture, then give you the code to link it into a forum or bboard or whatnot.


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## Endur (Sep 12, 2005)

Batman (especially the Batman from Frank Miller)

Odysseus (Mythology)

Indiana Jones (movies)

Conan (books, movies)

Han Solo (Star Wars)


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## warlord (Sep 12, 2005)

Endur if you're gonna nominate I need numbers. Also Deimurge mind explaining how G-Zilla is an anti-hero? He strikes me as misunderstood monster.


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## warlord (Sep 12, 2005)

19. Tom Ripley (Ripliad book series, movies )
20. John Constantine (Hellblazer, movie)


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2005)

warlord said:
			
		

> Endur if you're gonna nominate I need numbers. Also Deimurge mind explaining how G-Zilla is an anti-hero? He strikes me as misunderstood monster.



I don't see any difference between "misunderstood monster" and "anti-hero". In his rampages he kills countless people, but we love him anyway. And he's defended humanity a number of times from other giant monsters. He has heroic qualities, but isn't really a hero.

Demiurge out.


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## Kesh (Sep 12, 2005)

*demiurge*, would you mind resizing that Godzilla pic? It hurts my 1024x768 screen.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2005)

Kesh said:
			
		

> *demiurge*, would you mind resizing that Godzilla pic? It hurts my 1024x768 screen.



No problem. I thought that pic was pushing the size limit...


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## warlord (Sep 12, 2005)

21. Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) The mischevious spikey haired blonde six year old with a talking tiger. 

And for Endur

22. Batman (especially the Batman from Frank Miller)

23. Odysseus (Mythology)

24. Indiana Jones (movies)

25. Conan (books, movies)

26. Han Solo (Star Wars)


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 12, 2005)

warlord said:
			
		

> 23. Odysseus (Mythology)
> 
> 24. Indiana Jones (movies)




Hmm... this brings us back to the clarification point, I think. I wouldn't personally regard either of these two characters as antiheroes, but as heroes. Odysseus is the classic model for the heroic journey, in fact. I could see where he might fit the bill (in respect to his fall from the grace of the gods), but I can't see where Indy has any sort of non-heroic qualities at all.


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## mrtauntaun (Sep 13, 2005)

Odysseus is not an anti-hero, he is a through and through hero.  Classical Epics are defined as being about a Hero, which is why they are often referred to as Heroic Epics, and they are written about the Heroic Era.  In this case, The Odyssey.


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## Kesh (Sep 13, 2005)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> No problem. I thought that pic was pushing the size limit...



 Thank you very much!

I suppose I should contribute to this thread...

* Marv (_Sin City_)

He's not a nice guy. In fact, he's kind of a thug and a bully. But, he's actually trying to turn his life around, somewhat, when things all go to hell. In the end, he's still striving to do what's right, even as he's killing folks who deserve it.

Favorite quote: "I love hit men. You never have to feel bad, no matter what you do to them."


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## jasper (Sep 13, 2005)

27. Frank Burns... weasel who always trying to out do Hawkeye but is too busy with hot lips.


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## Bront (Sep 13, 2005)

Various posters said:
			
		

> 5. Solid Snake
> 23. Odysseus (Mythology)
> 24. Indiana Jones (movies)



I think these are Heroes more than anti-heroes



			
				Various posters said:
			
		

> 21. Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) The mischevious spikey haired blonde six year old with a talking tiger.



I wouldn't even consider him a hero, let alone an anti-hero

Nominations (Numbers omited due to general confusion as to what the number currently is (Maybe you should update the list on the first post).
- Inigo Montoya (Movies: Princess bride)
- Kyle Reese (Movies: Terminator)
- Tommy Gavin (TV: Rescue Me)


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## Alzrius (Sep 13, 2005)

warlord said:
			
		

> 26. Han Solo (Star Wars)




Han may have started out as an anti-hero, but I think that the end of Episode IV marks his changeover into a full-fledged hero.

Beyond that...

28. Venom (Marvel Comics)

29. Solo (Marvel Comics; "While I live, terror dies!")

30. Spawn (Image Comics)

31. Deadpool (Marvel Comics)


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## Alzrius (Sep 13, 2005)

I noticed that there seems to be a bit of confusion over what constitutes an anti-hero.

For me, it was always someone who did the wrong thing for the right reasons (or maybe the right thing for the wrong reasons), such as people who murder evil-doers exclusively.

Here's a small portion of the definition from Wikipedia:



> In literature and film, an anti-hero is a central or supporting character that has some of the personality flaws traditionally assigned to villains or un-heroic people, but nonetheless also has enough heroic qualities, intentions, or type of strength to gain the sympathy of readers or viewers. Anti-heroes can be awkward, obnoxious, passive, pitiful, obtuse, or even normal; But they are always, in some fundamental way, flawed, unqualified, or failed heroes. Comic books feature anti-heroes (also known as "dark heroes") who are characters fighting for the side of good, but either with some tragic flaw (such as a tormented past), fighting for reasons that are not entirely altruistic (they may fight a villain due to a grudge or some other selfish motivation, with little or no regard for typical "heroic" motives), a non heroic character who is not evil, nor are they good, but find themselves fighting on the side of good due to circumstance, or a hero using questionable means to reach their goals. A good working definition of the anti-hero is a paradoxical character that is, within the context of a story, a hero but in another context could easily be seen as a villain, simply as unlikable, a normal person or coward.


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## devilish (Sep 13, 2005)

Going for the always controversial ....

32)  Thomas Covenant

Flame away .. I'm resistant to fire.  ;-)


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## mmu1 (Sep 14, 2005)

33) Vlad Taltos (Steven Brust's _Jhereg_ books)

34) Jayne Cobb.

35) Cerebus the Earth-Pig Born

36) "V" from "V for Vendetta"

37) Takeshi Kovacs (Richard K. Morgans's Altered Carbon, Broken Angels and Woken Furies)

38) Rincewind  (Terry Pratchett's Discworld)


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## The Druid Merlin (Sep 14, 2005)

39. Sir Edmund Blackadder Esq. II. He once blackmailed the corrupt baby eating Bishop of Bath. Inspite of his mean spirited and vicious nature he did fall in love, though his bride to be ran off with Lord Flashheart, and he tried to save the queen, though he, Baldrick, and the rest of Queen Elizabeth's court were all murdered by Prince Ludvig the Indestructible.

40. Royal Butler Edmund Blackadder the Third. England 1790 - 1815.

41. Captain Edmund Blackadder the Fourth. The Western Front 1917.

42. King Edmund Blackadder. Modern day. This song and these interviews sum him up.

*song lyrics:*
_Let joy fill every Briton's heart,
For now the country's going to make it.
At last a King who looks the part,
At last a Queen who looks good naked. 

Blackadder,
Blackadder,
A monarch with panache,
Blackadder,
Blackadder
He's got a nice moustache

Everything he wants he'll get,
The world is now Blackadder's oyster,
Most Prime Ministers are wet,
But Baldrick he is even moister.

Blackadder,
Blackadder,
A dog who's got his bone,
Blackadder,
Blackadder,
A bastard on the throne

Blackadder,
Blackadder,
His beard is neatly curled,
Blackadder,
Blackadder,
He's going to rule the world._

[sblock]*King Edmund*

*Sunday:* Your Majesty, in a break from royal tradition, you have decided that instead of staying at the draughty, unheated Balmoral Castle this year, you and 200 of your closest friends are the guests of a dodgy old billionaire at his Caribbean island. Why is that?

*King Edmund:* I am in fact doing it entirely for the sake of the nation. Certain people have become tired of the formality of the former Queen's Christmas messages. I will therefore be addressing the nation this Christmas Day in a pair of skin-tight mini-trunks from the top of a high-diving board with the heavenly Gail Porter sitting on my shoulders in a fur bikini. I'm sure this will delight the people of Britain and bring joy to the Commonwealth.

*Sunday:* Sir, given your sometimes robust comments on modern architecture, can you share your thoughts on the Millennium Dome with us?

*King Edmund:* Certainly, it's the most beautiful and exceptional piece of architecture since the Panthenon, and I will be spending the money that the Prime Minister paid me to answer that on a very fast new car.

*Sunday:* Now you are King, who would you like to see in the Tower?

*King Edmund:* Apart from those swines who ripped off the Mitchell brothers in EastEnders?

*Sunday:* Yes, apart from them?

*King Edmund:* Well, if ever you actually visit the Tower these days, it's full of foreigners, and that feels about right to me.

*Sunday:* Are there any old laws or royal privileges you'd like to see brought back?

*King Edmund:* Three primarily. First, the divine right of kings, which lets you sleep with anyone you see at a party who looks divine. Second, the royal right of the highway, which lets you drive on both sides of the road, nay the pavement even, if it takes your fancy. And third, the right of Kings to answer no more than four questions from any magazine.

*Sunday:* And our final question is...

*King Edmund:* Shut Up.

*Prime Minister Baldrick*

*Sunday:* Prime Minister, do you feel that your socialist plans to make the monarchy more relevant in the 21st century have been in any way changed by the deep and abiding debt of gratitude you owe your close friend King Edmund?

*Baldrick:* I am certainly happy to concede that the King had a strong influence on my decision to make the monarchy more relevant in the 21st century by giving the King total power over everything except the price of a dog licence.

*Sunday:* Sir, can you tell us more about your exciting plans for the People's Millennium?

*Baldrick:* I don't want to reveal too much, but I will just say that the prime event will take part in an exquisite building, the largest ever constructed by man, consisting of 12 enormous steel pylons with a pair of Pavarotti's pants stretched over the top. Inside will be performed a mighty work of drama which will prominently feature root vegetables.

*Sunday:* And what part will your friend the chancellor of the Exchequer play in all this?

*Baldrick:* He will play the part of King Turnip.

*Sunday:* Some say the monarchy is finished and Britain needs a young, thrusting President with his First Lady by his side. What are your views?

*Baldrick:* Well, at first that seemed like an attractive idea. And on second thoughts it seemed a splendid though. But when I mentioned it to King Edmund earlier this month, he strung me up by my three softest parts for a week and a half. Therefore, after mature consideration and 10 days of torture, I can confidently tell you that it is a very bad idea.[/sblock]


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## Qlippoth (Sep 14, 2005)

43. Travis Bickle (_Taxi Driver_)






Ex-veteran, psychotic cab driver who somehow puts things right.


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## KaosDevice (Sep 14, 2005)

43. John Constantine (of the comics, not that crap movie.)

44. Marshal Law (from Brit comics)

45. Sandman of the Endless

46. John Rebus from the Ian Rankin Rebus novels.

47. The Demon Etrigan

48. Hiro Protagonist from Snow Crash


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## warlord (Sep 14, 2005)

I already l;isted Constantine Kaos so we're still on 43.


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## JRRNeiklot (Sep 14, 2005)

49:  Mad Martigan (sp?)  From "Willow"
50:  Jack Burton            From "Big Trouble in Little China"
51:  Gollum
52:  Rick O' Connell        "The Mummy"
53:  Marv                     "Sin City"
54:  Johnny Dangerously
55:  Ash


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## Cthulhudrew (Sep 14, 2005)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> 53:  Marv                     "Sin City"




Marv's already been nominated.


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## Klaus (Sep 14, 2005)

I *think* we're on 55, right?

So 55: Judge Dredd (2000 AD comics). So f***ing ugly that crooks would get sick whenever he removed his helmet. (please disregard Stallone's movie).

56: Tommy "Hitman" Monaghan (DC COmics). He barfed on Batman's boots, and he went to a JLA recruitment drive just so he could check out Wonder Woman with his X-Ray vision.


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## mhacdebhandia (Sep 15, 2005)

57: Dwight, _Sin City_.


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## Mallus (Sep 15, 2005)

58: Gerald Tarrant (C.S. Friedman's Coldfire Trilogy)


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## Black Omega (Sep 15, 2005)

Hm...anitheros.

59.  The Vampire Alucard from the Hellsing manga.  Kills vampires mostly because modern, disrespectful vampires annoy him, while he looks for a powerful opponents to fight to break his boredom.  Utterly ruthless in pursuing his goals and will kill as many people as needed or is are fun.  But has a code he lives by and basically does end up fighting the bad guys most of the time.


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## KaosDevice (Sep 15, 2005)

59. 'Jack' the narrator in Fight Club
60. Tyler Durden, Fight Club
61. Herbert West, Re-Animator
62. Any member of the Doom Patrol
63. King Mob, The Invisibles
64. Sandor Clegane, 'The Hound' A Song of Ice and Fire
65. Slippery Jim DeGriz, The Stainless Steel Rat
66. Agent Retief, Keith Laumer
67. Croyd, The Sleeper from the Wild Cards series.

Has anyone mentioned Aeon Flux yet, she's got to be in the list.


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## Mean Eyed Cat (Sep 15, 2005)

68. Tank Girl
69. Vampire Hunter D
70. The Maxx

Oh and...
71. Yojimbo


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## Aryoche (Sep 17, 2005)

72. Roland of Gilead


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