# Best use of Polearm Master + Sentinel, Best Control/Skill Bard, Level 6



## Saren (Mar 15, 2016)

As the title, I have two character questions. A couple of the players know what type - mechanically - of character they want to play, they just don't know the best way to get there (our DM has promised a particularly nasty campaign and encourages a certain level of min/maxing). How would you go about making the two titled characters?

The Polearm + Sentinel combo wants to go Variant Human for the extra feat.

The Bard likes Half-Elf, but she's open to other races.


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## RulesJD (Mar 15, 2016)

Polearm + Sent + GWM you mean?

1.  Variant Human (obviously) Battlemaster Fighter. 

2.  Champion is also a possibility but BM is almost always more useful with the PSG combo. Battlemaster gets Precision, which is the most useful thing because it helps GWM strikes connect (+10 damage rather than just +4.5 (the 1d8).  It also lets you Trip enemies that hit your PAM + Sent, which means they're stuck 10ft away from you, while Prone, until their next turn.  That means a fully turn of advantage against them.  Frightened will help you tank.

3.  Start with PAM, then grab Sent, then GWM.  1 level dip into Cleric for Divine Favor + Bless (make those GWM strikes count) and you're good to go.  This is probably one of the most combat effective builds in the game when it comes online at level 4 and then fully online at level 6.

4.  If you don't want to level dip Cleric (I highly recommend that you do), grab 2-3 levels of Barbarian.  Extra +2 damage on each hit from Rage + Advantage at will for GWM + 1/2 damage from almost anything + Advantage on Dex Saves = you are super tank but super damage.  BM die work while raging as well so woohoo.


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## Blue (Mar 16, 2016)

Best Control/Skill Bard, Level 6.  The Bard likes Half-Elf, but she's open to other races. 

This one is tricky, I'd go with:  Half-Elf Bard (Lore) 6.

Really, bard is one of the strongest classes, and half-elf is a great fit.  Lore bard is more control of the subclasses with both Cutting Words and magical secrets at 6th for spells from other lists.

No feats needed, I'd probably keep pumping Charisma (and then Dex) instead, but that's not hard and fast.  Actually, depending on the campaign I'd take the Actor feat, because it's just dang cool in the hands of a high-Charisma roleplayer.


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## Blue (Mar 16, 2016)

[MENTION=6808367]RulesJD[/MENTION] has some good ideas there, here's a few alternatives.  Polearm Master gives a reliable extra attack, and that works well with classes that do more with each attack.  Paladin (for delivering smites) and Barbarian (for bonus rage damage, plus hitting with the extra more often with Reckless attack) are both good at taking advantage of that.

Now Sentiniel can change that.  If the DM allows the Unearthed Arcana entries, the Underdark one has an alternate fighting style hat uses your bonus action (no bonus attack, boo!) and allows you to make unlimited opportunity attacks that round (amazing with Sentinel, even more so with Sentinel and reach).  Barbarian can't take that, but Fighter, Paladin and Ranger can.

I would also think about spreading those out a bit in order to get the Str up.  High strength improves expected damage both chance to hit (+5% all damage) and damage (+1 damage on hit).  More attacks again multiplies that.


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## Kithas (Mar 17, 2016)

Are these things you want to do anyways and are asking to get the most out of the concept,  or are you assuming based on general here say that these build types are more powerful than othrs?   I ask because especially pm fighter seems to have a lot of hype around it and it does some things very well but as Ive learned 5e better eve realized that as a build it is sub optimal.   However if these are concepts that you want to play anyways id be more than happy to help.


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## RulesJD (Mar 17, 2016)

Kithas said:


> Are these things you want to do anyways and are asking to get the most out of the concept,  or are you assuming based on general here say that these build types are more powerful than othrs?   I ask because especially pm fighter seems to have a lot of hype around it and it does some things very well but as Ive learned 5e better eve realized *that as a build it is sub optimal*.   However if these are concepts that you want to play anyways id be more than happy to help.




Please explain how it is sub-optimal.


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## Kithas (Mar 17, 2016)

RulesJD said:


> Please explain how it is sub-optimal.




We've already been over this in other threads.  Please refer to those points.


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## RulesJD (Mar 17, 2016)

Kithas said:


> We've already been over this in other threads.  Please refer to those points.




Yes, and in those threads (that I've seen) PSG is overwhelming agreed to be one of the top tier most powerful builds.  No other build gets as many attacks between main Action, Bonus, and Reaction.  No other build has as high sustainable DPS without expending resources, and the resources that are spend (assuming battlemaster) are short rest anyways.  

The OP asked for the best way to get a PAM + Sent combo and he was provided with variant human which is clearly the answer.  So far you've contributed nothing to this discussion.  You claimed that Polearm Master Fighters are a suboptimal build and provided nothing for your reasoning why, or even what it was suboptimal at exactly.


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## RulesJD (Mar 17, 2016)

*double post*


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## Saren (Mar 17, 2016)

Kithas said:


> Are these things you want to do anyways and are asking to get the most out of the concept,  or are you assuming based on general here say that these build types are more powerful than othrs?




These are the concepts that we were wanting to do anyway. Our soon-to-be Bard wants to play a support/skillful type character and doesn't want to be a cleric, and I want to smack things with a halberd. 

I appreciate the tips so far!


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## Kithas (Mar 17, 2016)

RulesJD said:


> -snip-



Im not going to reply to you because you are off-topic and my question wasn't to you. I wanted to clarify some questions I had before giving advice.

@op
Either mountain dwarf,  half orc or Goliath are all great not human race options that give you better stats and other nice features. Waiting til level 4 for paw isn't that bad and you will have plenty of asi's from fighter.
  I would also suggest old lunch Knight for your class, sword burst and fire bolt are invaluable for this build as aoe and range are your big weaknesses. Low level spells like shield and false life will share up some of your such inability issues. Alternatively 1-2 levels in warlock would give similar benefits. 

For the bard are they doing valor or lore? The big thing with bard is your magical secrets.  some of my favorites; guidance, entangle, crusader's mantle,  hex, enhance ability, aura of vitality/life and swift quiver.  basically look for the spells that make each class shine and steal em! Other than that try not to have overlapping skill proficiencies ie usually insight and investigation, athletics and acrobatics are interchangeable so you don't need both.


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## RulesJD (Mar 18, 2016)

Kithas said:


> Im not going to reply to you because you are off-topic and my question wasn't to you. I wanted to clarify some questions I had before giving advice.
> 
> @op
> Either mountain dwarf,  half orc or Goliath are all great not human race options that give you better stats and other nice features. Waiting til level 4 for paw isn't that bad and you will have plenty of asi's from fighter.
> ...




1.  It's easier just to admit that you're wrong.

2.  You made a statement that the general build I posted was suboptimal but neglected to clarify why it was.  As the OP was asking for the optimal build, clarification should have been provided to have any substance.

3.  MD and HO are solid choices for Fighters as you mentioned, Goliath is pretty sub-par as their niche mechanic loses luster at higher levels rapidly and is far better utilized on a Barbarian.

EK is one of the worst setups for PAM.  The reliance on Long Rest resources seriously limits the Fighters ability to have sustained fighting.  Additionally, while Shield is a fantastic spell to have, it will be competing with PAM/Sent attacks for Reactions and so is suboptimal in most combat situations.  Firebolt will almost always be worse than just using a Longbow because you get to add your Dex mod to the damage with a Longbow, not with Firebolt.  Sword Burst is sacrificing 2 main attacks which with GWM + Precision are highly likely to hit most enemies.  I'll take 2 enemies taking 2d10+26 damage over more enemies taking 2d6 damage.  

Levels in Warlock are usually great, but yet again with your build, suboptimal.  You will have to sacrifice Wisdom for Cha to get to at least 13 Cha, which means your Perception and Wisdom saves will take a big hit.  Additionally, Warlock benefits are nice (presuming Fiend for self heal because PSG combos wreck combat) but Hex is worse on this build do to its competition with the bonus action attack that you can use GWM with.

Furthermore, Warlocks don't get Shield.  AoA is pointless due to the lack of higher level spell slots.  Devil's Sight + Darkness is great, but as a melee character you're screwing the party.

OP, please don't listen to his advice if you are looking for the optimal build.  If you are looking for a fun and flavorful build, absolutely go that route as Variant Humans can be fairly boring and Battlemasters are fantastic but get repetitive compared to EKs


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## Kithas (Mar 19, 2016)

I honestly havent found a good way to have a discussion with you jd. That is why I am doing my best to avoid your overly aggressive comments and largely not engage with you. 

Im really not sure how a damage reduction reaction is a 'niche' ability, taking damage is very common. As far as racials go, no it doesnt scale that impressively but it is always useful and relevant. 

Ek is largely useful for the cantrips and the utility having leveled spells gives. Using a longbow requires switching weapons, depending on your dm thats at least one full round before you can fire,  also wasting a round of damage. Your cited 'better' damage is also negligable as 2d10s(11avg) and 2d8+4(13avg) really isnt worth the time/vulnerability to switch. On top of that you get access to magic damage which is very valuable as the game progresses, even some low cr creatures are outright immune to non-magical damage. 
On sword burst, I would be very interested to know why you are counting on adding 26 to the damage of 2 attacks(+13 to str!?). If youre actually interested in the numbers it breaks down as follows; your three attacks will do 23.5 average damage, sword burst will do 7 per enemy, basic division shows you that they break even at 3 enemies and sword burst pulls way ahead after that. After level 7 you get to sword burst and make one attack with your bonus action, this means you break even on 2 enemies and easily surpasses it from there. If your +26 was because of great weapon master then I apologize that I dont optimize for magical christmas land where you can -5 and still expect to hit even with your precision strike,  not to mention youre eating all of your resources just for that.

Warlock was more for the cantrips spell features and short rest spell slots. They do not have shield but that wasnt the point and I was offering it as an alternative. 
I also fail to understandhow hex is a poor choice on this build, Ive personally been using it for some time and with the sheer number of attacks you have it is well worth the occasional missed butt strike(7.5 avg with max str=2d6)

As for your comments about following my advice. How about we both offer our advice and let the op judge for himself like rational adults. This is not the place for playground yelling matches and Im done trying to reason with you.


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