# Man, Lords of Madness are looking awesome!!



## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 9, 2010)

Some photos from GenCon at DDMspoilers: ddmspoilers.com • View topic - GenCon LoM


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## Dausuul (Aug 9, 2010)

More pics here. (Greyhaze is always good for miniature pics.)

Looking at the Heroslayer Hydra now, and... wow. Just wow. Must have.

The orc archer, rot grub swarm, nalfeshnee, crocodile, portal, chest, and scorpion are also high on my list. Dracolich and skeleton too. Looks like I better start socking aside a couple hundred bucks and dust off my Troll and Toad account...

Edit: Also the fomorian painbringer. And the huge wolf (I have lots of Medium and Large-sized wolves, but that thing is big enough to be a Fenris-style demon god wolf, and that's something I've gotta have.) And the roc...

Oh yeah. This is gonna be a good one.


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## Vicar In A Tutu (Aug 9, 2010)

Heroslayer hydra, bebilith, will-o-the-wisp, brain in a jar, nalfeshnee, Mephistopheles, mind flayer noble, dragonborn elementalist, thri-kreen warrior, elder blue dragon...

DROOL


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## Styracosaurus (Aug 9, 2010)

Those look great!


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## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 9, 2010)

Dausuul said:


> More pics here.



Yep - those are the official WotC previews.



Dausuul said:


> (Greyhaze is always good for miniature pics.)



Yep


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## Zulithe (Aug 9, 2010)

truly an awesome set. It's a shame they cost so much though.

Any suggestions on where to order minis on the cheap? Is amazon the cheapest? They have these on pre-order for around $15 per booster I see, which is a decent discount... but even THEN when I imagine paying $15 for 6 pieces of plastic... argh.


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## Dausuul (Aug 9, 2010)

Zulithe said:


> truly an awesome set. It's a shame they cost so much though.
> 
> Any suggestions on where to order minis on the cheap? Is amazon the cheapest? They have these on pre-order for around $15 per booster I see, which is a decent discount... but even THEN when I imagine paying $15 for 6 pieces of plastic... argh.




Are you buying boosters or singles? For singles, which make up the vast bulk of my miniature purchases, I generally go with Troll and Toad. Excellent selection and very good prices. Boosters are purely impulse buys for me, so I get them at my FLGS and hardly ever buy more than one at a time.


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## Holy Bovine (Aug 9, 2010)

This set looks awesome.  Possibly the best since Underdark (one of my all time favourites).  This may be the first set since Dragonqueen that I actually buy cases to try and get all the minis.  The only ones I was less than happy with was the purple winged humanoid thing with a beak (looks silly and I have no idea what it is!) and the stone giant (only b/c I have more giants than I will ever need - I could field every giant in the Against the Giants modules - at the same time!  )


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## Oryan77 (Aug 9, 2010)

Zulithe said:


> truly an awesome set. It's a shame they cost so much though.
> 
> Any suggestions on where to order minis on the cheap? Is amazon the cheapest? They have these on pre-order for around $15 per booster I see, which is a decent discount... but even THEN when I imagine paying $15 for 6 pieces of plastic... argh.




I sell singles also (link in my sig), although I'm low on stock since Troll & Toad keep buying my minis to resell on their own site. I can also sell cases and boosters to anyone that wants them. I haven't figured out what I will be selling them at yet, but I'll know closer to the release date. It'll definitely be cheaper than Amazon. 

I don't normally sell boosters, but if anyone wants boosters rather than a whole case, I can add them to my site upon request. Not a problem.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 9, 2010)

So multiple humans, one common and another uncommon, at least, and one core race dragonborn and it appears rare.

Way to go WoTC! You keep listening to that fanbase when it comes to providing character options. Ugh.


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## TarionzCousin (Aug 10, 2010)

Vicar In A Tutu said:


> DROOL



Fixed that for you, Morrissey.


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## Vicar In A Tutu (Aug 10, 2010)

> Fixed that for you, Morrissey.



Thanks


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## Shazman (Aug 10, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> So multiple humans, one common and another uncommon, at least, and one core race dragonborn and it appears rare.
> 
> Way to go WoTC! You keep listening to that fanbase when it comes to providing character options. Ugh.




You mean to tell me that you actually thought that WotC would listen to what customers want?  Surely you must be somewhat delusional.  How long have people been clamoring for non-rare dragonborn., and yet over two years later, they are still nowhere to be found.


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## Dice4Hire (Aug 10, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> So multiple humans, one common and another uncommon, at least, and one core race dragonborn and it appears rare.
> 
> Way to go WoTC! You keep listening to that fanbase when it comes to providing character options. Ugh.




It is a rare gamer that plays dragonborn. Those who play humans, elves and dwarves are more common.

It is really pretty simple, if you look at it that way.


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## MrMyth (Aug 10, 2010)

Shazman said:


> You mean to tell me that you actually thought that WotC would listen to what customers want? Surely you must be somewhat delusional.




Yeah, I think it pretty clear that it is always in WotC's best interest to avoid selling customers what they want. 

Or, alternatively, that's crazy talk. And, just possibly, while many people might want more dragonborn, there is more demand for general human figs. 

I don't know that for sure. On the other hand, I've got lots of humans and a handful of dragonborn, but in most games, I'm still more likely to make better use of more humans. Maybe that's what their market research shows. Maybe they are just throwing darts at a board and randomly picking stuff out! It doesn't seem likely, though. 

Remember - WotC can never satisfy _every _customer. So when a customer comes along who is disatisfied, it doesn't so much mean they aren't listening to you, as much as that they are listening to some else.


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## Dausuul (Aug 10, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> Remember - WotC can never satisfy _every _customer. So when a customer comes along who is disatisfied, it doesn't so much mean they aren't listening to you, as much as that they are listening to some else.




Bingo.

Recall first of all that the Player's Handbook Heroes line was canceled. WotC gave it a try and (I'm fairly sure) concluded that the market for PC minis is very limited. One DM can make good use of hundreds or even thousands of monster minis, but an entire gaming group may need only 4-6 PC minis for the whole length of a campaign. It's not that you can't make money selling PC minis, but they're not amenable to the DDM bulk-sales formula.

So PC minis--_all_ PC minis--are a niche item. DDM is aimed squarely at the Dungeon Master. The designers squeeze in PC minis where they can, but the big focus is always on the monsters. And dragonborn minis (along with goliaths, shardminds, genasi, and the rest of the wacky race brigade) are a niche within a niche.

Me, I've got very little use for the danged things. I'd be somewhat annoyed to see the wacky race brigade eating up a lot of Common/Uncommon slots that could have gone to filling in gaps in my monster lineup. I want those slots devoted to grunt skeletons, orcs, and the like--things that I'm going to need a _lot_ of and want to be able to get for cheap.

The secondary market exists for a reason. If you want a dragonborn mini, you can easily get one online from Oryan77 or Troll and Toad or something. It may cost a little more than you'd like, but you're shelling out that $6 to $8 so your DM doesn't have to blow hundreds on mooks*.

[size=-2]*Which is not to say your DM won't blow hundreds on mooks anyway... but she'll get a lot more for her money.[/size]


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## AngryMojo (Aug 10, 2010)

Shazman said:


> You mean to tell me that you actually thought that WotC would listen to what customers want?  Surely you must be somewhat delusional.  How long have people been clamoring for non-rare dragonborn., and yet over two years later, they are still nowhere to be found.




There was a fixed-rarity dragonborn in both the first and second PHB heroes run.

Female Dragonborn Rogue #2/18 D&D PHB Heroes Series 1 - Player\'s Handbook Heroes Series 1 - D&D Miniatures - Collectible Miniatures Games
Male Dragonborn Warlord #10/18 D&D PHB Heroes Series 2 - Player's Handbook Heroes Series 2 - D&D Miniatures - Collectible Miniatures Games


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## Herschel (Aug 10, 2010)

RPG-only people were screaming to the high heavens that there were too many/even any PC-type minis in sets while the skirmish game was still active.

Then they split them out in to PHB series PC minis and monsters and the PHB series apparently undersold.

And now people are complaining there aren't enough PC minis?

Dragonborn as rares are fine. There's 17 Dragonborn-type minis already (a few uncommon even) and more on the way. You can pick them up relatively cheap from good resellers.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 10, 2010)

Dragonborn are not a 'whacky' race. They are core. In terms of actual dragonborn, of those two nonrandom, one was a female rogue and the other a repaint. Hardly the ideal cadidates to base future core race minis on.


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## AngryMojo (Aug 10, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> Dragonborn are not a 'whacky' race. They are core. In terms of actual dragonborn, of those two nonrandom, one was a female rogue and the other a repaint. Hardly the ideal cadidates to base future core race minis on.




People wanted them, WotC gave them non-rare dragonborn minis.  Even if one is a reprint, it still makes the figure available to the audience.  I'd love to see more dragonborn made, if for no other reason than so I can flesh out my evil dragonborn encounters.  For all the whining and complaining and begging that's been going on for dragonborn minis, they didn't sell when available.


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## Peter Lee (Aug 10, 2010)

Honestly, all the PC races other than Human, Elf, and Dwarf are underrepresented. (And I challenge you to find a female dwarf spellcaster before this set.)

Let's just take Dragonborn, Deva, Shardmind, Wilden, Genasi, Mul, and Thri-kreen as the most unrepresented. For me to do a caster/warrior version of each sex for these races, it's a minimum of 26 minis - almost half the set. For a product that primarily aimed at DMs, that's just too many. These days I can justify around 5, especially those that can do double duty as monsters/villains.

For this set, we have the Dragonborn spellcaster. I'd love to do more -- heck, I'd love to do a thousand minis a year -- but it's just not possible.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 10, 2010)

Peter Lee said:


> Honestly, all the PC races other than Human, Elf, and Dwarf are underrepresented. (And I challenge you to find a female dwarf spellcaster before this set.)
> 
> Let's just take Dragonborn, Deva, Shardmind, Wilden, Genasi, Mul, and Thri-kreen as the most unrepresented. For me to do a caster/warrior version of each sex for these races, it's a minimum of 26 minis - almost half the set. For a product that primarily aimed at DMs, that's just too many. These days I can justify around 5, especially those that can do double duty as monsters/villains.
> 
> For this set, we have the Dragonborn spellcaster. I'd love to do more -- heck, I'd love to do a thousand minis a year -- but it's just not possible.




that's an interesting list, and I'm not saying your math is wrong.

but... ah, the dreaded but, the dragonborn is a core PHB character. There are more halflings and probably more PC sized minotaurs (since you know, WoTC has 'snuck' many PHB style races int othe mosnter sets.)


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## Zaukrie (Aug 10, 2010)

Lords of Madness looks cool. Not sure it is the exact mix of minis I'd pick, but we are getting more minis, and they look good, and are mostly minis we don't have a lot of....that's the part I'm focusing on.


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## Peter Lee (Aug 10, 2010)

Zaukrie said:


> Lords of Madness looks cool. Not sure it is the exact mix of minis I'd pick, but we are getting more minis, and they look good, and are mostly minis we don't have a lot of....that's the part I'm focusing on.




As always, I'm interested in hearing what people want. (What's wrong with the mix?)


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## Dausuul (Aug 10, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> that's an interesting list, and I'm not saying your math is wrong.
> 
> but... ah, the dreaded but, the dragonborn is a core PHB character. There are more halflings and probably more PC sized minotaurs (since you know, WoTC has 'snuck' many PHB style races int othe mosnter sets.)




*shrug* By the WotC definition, everything on that list except genasi is a core race. On the other hand, if your definition of "core" is "what's in the introductory book," then once D&D Essentials is released, "core races" will shrink to "humans, halflings, elves, and dwarves."

In the end, it doesn't matter what's core, it matters what people want to buy. Like I said--niche within a niche. This set has one dragonborn in it and I really doubt the demand warrants more than that.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 11, 2010)

You may be right but I've yet to play a game where someone wasn't playing a draognborn.

Game I was running featured a dragonborn warlord.

game a friend was running had dragonborn warlorck

Game I'm in now its a dragonborn wizard.

and among the younger crowd they seem pretty standard.


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## Peter Lee (Aug 11, 2010)

That's my experience as well. 2 Dragonborn warlords, 1 dragonborn barbarian, and one dragonborn paladin. (Only one is played by someone under 25, and that's the 10 year old son of the DM.) The only game I'm in that doesn't have a Dragonborn is Mike's lunchtime Elemental Evil game.


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## humble minion (Aug 11, 2010)

It's also worth remembering that miniature sets are one of the few products that WotC can still market to the 3.xe/PF adherents, and that market segment is going to be actively discouraged from buying a set if it contains a large percentage of shardminds, dragonborn etc.  I'm not sure it's a major consideration, but it's there, and I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that there's been plenty of tieflings (which can easily be used as tieflings or half-fiends in a 3.x/pf game) in recent sets, but few dragonborn, which are a little less directly convertable.

But that's all boring, and I'm much more interested in the new minis!  Very nice set, especially the huges.  I'm running Savage Tide, and almost the only thing they could have done to improve the set is to replace Yeenoghu with Demogorgon (maybe next time?  *puppy dog eyes*)  I'll be wanting to snag a couple of bebeliths, a couple of nalfeshnees, a brain in a jar, hydra, blue dragon, blood fiends, rot grubs, an efreet or three, the dwarf beguiler (it's been AGES since the last dwarf wizard-type!), a roc, a cloaker, Yeenoghu, some scorpions and thri-kreen, and maybe a fomorian or two just because they look good, even though I don't know what to do with them.  Wouldn't throw out Dispater or Mephistopheles if I happened across them either.

This is a good set.  Practical, from a gamer's perspective, and not as stuffed full of 'dwarf with axe' and 'elf with bow' types that we've seen dozens of in older sets (though that was probably partly due to the necessity of having a reasonable selection of Good-aligned minis in a set back when the skirmish game was a consideration).  Mix of 4e monsters (some of which I can adapt, but most I can take or leave to be honest, but they were always going to be there) and stuff which has been core D&D since forever.  And while I'm not a particular fan of shadar-kai or neogi, it's good to have multiple minis of relatively obscure monster races in a set like this - it makes it easier for a DM to accumulate the minis for a varied encounter.  Wouldn't want to overdo it (the dozen or so spawn of Tiamat back in War of the Dragon Queen were particularly annoying) but I think the principle is good.

The minis line went through a really grim phase for a while there, but with the last set or two it looks like things are starting to get back on track.  Kudos.


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## AngryMojo (Aug 11, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> You may be right but I've yet to play a game where someone wasn't playing a draognborn.




See, that's the exact opposite of what I've seen.  I've seen total two, a paladin in the first 4e game I ran because it was the KotS pregen, and one barbarian later on for three sessions.  I see mostly humans, with a few elves, dwarves, eladrin and tieflings thrown in for spice.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 11, 2010)

AngryMojo said:


> See, that's the exact opposite of what I've seen.  I've seen total two, a paladin in the first 4e game I ran because it was the KotS pregen, and one barbarian later on for three sessions.  I see mostly humans, with a few elves, dwarves, eladrin and tieflings thrown in for spice.




ah yes, you are correct, the first 4e game I ran with the prebuild dragonborn. Missed that one.


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## AngryMojo (Aug 11, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> ah yes, you are correct, the first 4e game I ran with the prebuild dragonborn. Missed that one.




It makes me wonder.  If so many people played that dragonborn paladin, how many people abandoned the half-elf cleric?


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## Dice4Hire (Aug 11, 2010)

As for what I would like to see.......

25% or so of player characters/NPCs, at least one of each new race that has appeared since the last set. Minis with less visible weapons or such would be cooler as they could be an implement user, or warrior with weapons/implements not drawn. 

20% or so of classic monsters like dragons, undead, orcs, goblins and such for those jsut getting into the collecting/mini hobby? 

25% monsters of a variety of types similar to ones already released in older products, either slight molding changes or repaints. I have no problems with repaints. Maybe taking old rares and downgrading them to uncommons or such would work. Do make them different though, to keep the old ones rare. 

20% monsters that have come out since the last expansion. With 1-2 sets of minis a year, this is a lot easier than it used to be. Draw from Revenge and MMIII

10% of oddball monsters, either named NPCS or just whatever odd things are running through the designer's minds. No official stats for such creatures need exist. 

Yes, this is aimed at everyone, but mostly people who have not bought a lot of them before. Those with extensive collections are much harder to please. It is better to aim at those who are new or casual to minis.


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## Oryan77 (Aug 11, 2010)

Peter Lee said:


> As always, I'm interested in hearing what people want.




A Tavern wench. 

A barmaid.

A whore...excuse me, a working girl.

A peasant girl.

A slave girl.

A damsel in distress.

A female dwarf in a chainmail bikini.

I mean hell, I can keep going and going. This is all stuff we've never had, but secretly want. I can create an entire set for WotC if they'd just listen to me.


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## Vicar In A Tutu (Aug 11, 2010)

> As always, I'm interested in hearing what people want.



Peter, from my DM-perspective, I would like the following:

* _Molydeus_ (awesome demon that people of earlier editions can like as well, just appeared in MM3)
* _New lich_ (important "core" monster, not done since GoL, vecna bellydancer from Dangerous Delves doesn't count)
* _Female hill giant / hill giant shaman_ (we need female giants, also a caster-type!)
* _Elder black dragon_ (this one goes without saying)
* _Two-headed troll_ (drool...)
* _New hell hound _ (not done since Harbinger)
* _Kas_ (legendary vampire-warrior, lots of D&D tradition, from Open Grave, good candidate for VR)
* _Aspect of Demogorgon / Zuggtmoy_ (Because demonlords rock!)
* _Uncommon fire giant _(then we have uncommon hill giant from WD, uncommon / visible frost giant from DD, and an easily available fire giant too)
* _Nymph_ (Just released in MM3 for 4E, still useable for fans of older editions, as far as I know, there is not a single nymph in all of DMMs 2000+ minis)

Peter, you are doing a great job with DDM. Lords of Madness is shaping up to be a great set. Keep it up!


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## Peraion Graufalke (Aug 11, 2010)

Peter Lee said:


> As always, I'm interested in hearing what people want.




If I'm not mistaken, there are no wilden/kelloren and mul minis at all, whereas some old minis haven't seen reprints/repaints and are hard to get, e.g. treant, warforged titan, glabrezu, wererat, baaz and kapak draconians.

Also, how about a Dark Sun-themed set? Just call it "Terrors of the Desert" (hint, hint).


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## Jhaelen (Aug 11, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> A Tavern wench.
> 
> A barmaid.
> 
> ...



Yep, and it wouldn't sell at all. 

I don't need any of these minis. What for? I only ever put minis on the table when there's a combat. Non-combatants (if present) are at best moving obstacles.

I don't mind the occasional 'prop' mini, like the treasure chest in the forthcoming set, but I'd hate to get more than one or two per set.


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## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 11, 2010)

Shade, Forgotten Realms style

Glabrezu

Elder Black

Young/Adult White - all the other chromatics have recent new versions

Pit Fiend

Large spider (uncommon)

Black Pudding

Some kind of Witch King stand in (a la Harbinger wraith)

Succubus

Female vampire, temptess style

Fell Troll

A Dragonborn some _other_ color than golden. Black would be cool (then give him dreads like that exarch of Tiamat from Scales of War)


...more as I think of them.




And thanks for Yeenoghu - I was actually desperately needing him for my campaign (where's my tin foil hat)!


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## Jools (Aug 11, 2010)

I'd like to see aspects of 4e's evil gods. Raven Queen too.


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## Dausuul (Aug 11, 2010)

Matrix Sorcica said:
			
		

> good list. You can get a cheap Fire Giant with the new Heroscape set (~$2.5)




You can? What's the name of the set and/or mini? I would seriously love some proper fire giants. I made my own by buying half a dozen sand giants and modding the hell out of them, but they're smaller than I'd like and the hair and beard are a bit off.


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## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 11, 2010)

Dausuul said:


> You can? What's the name of the set and/or mini? I would seriously love some proper fire giants.



_Warriors of Eberron_ has the Fire Giant from Against the Giants. Sure, it's on a Heroscape base, but the new bases are made to fit with D&D and you can always rebase.

They are $2.79 (my mistake) from Auggies.

The Dragonborn Myrmidon is $1.99....


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## Dausuul (Aug 11, 2010)

Matrix Sorcica said:


> _Warriors of Eberron_ has the Fire Giant from Against the Giants. Sure, it's on a Heroscape base, but the new bases are made to fit with D&D and you can always rebase.
> 
> They are $2.79 (my mistake) from Auggies.
> 
> The Dragonborn Myrmidon is $1.99....




Thanks! (I must spread some XP around, et cetera.)

For those interested, release date appears to be August 17th.


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## Shazman (Aug 11, 2010)

Some of them do look good, but it is disappointing that WotC is still stuck on cartoonish paint jobs.  The garish, flamboyant colors on some are really offputting.  It's also sad that some of the more interesting ones like the dragonborn spellcaster, demon lords, and dragons will be cost prohibitive to get either by buying cases or on the secondary market.


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## Herschel (Aug 11, 2010)

I'm loving the new set, but I'm a minis junkie. seeing them first-hand was nice, even though my 6'3 1/2" had to kneeel to get a decent look. The Efreeti even looked nice (and IMO that has a really tough predecessor to measure up to and the preview picture didn't do it justice.)


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## Almacov (Aug 11, 2010)

I mention this pretty much any time the question of minis I'd like to see pops up, but - hybsils.

They'd be a real challenge to produce (being small-sized, centaur-like creatures), but they'd be awesome to see.

(And hey, you could even tie them in with the Neverwinter Campaign Guide. See? Marketing!  Even better if they're playable...)

I'm not sure why, but something completely sold me on these creatures. Possibly the 3.0 Monsters of Faerun illustration.

Pushing aside my desire for hybsil goodness though, Lords of Madness looks like an awesome, awesome set.  Great work, Peter!


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## Oryan77 (Aug 11, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> Yep, and it wouldn't sell at all.
> 
> I don't need any of these minis. What for?




Ah, I didn't put a smiley face so it was recognizable as being...ya know...a joke.

I sometimes forget how a smiley face makes or breaks an attempt at humor with gamers online. Of course you don't need those minis, that's why it's not to be taken seriously.


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## DaveMage (Aug 11, 2010)

This is the best-looking set in YEARS!

Thank you, Peter Lee!


Which of these monsters are differently named in 3.x or earlier?


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## Shazman (Aug 11, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> As for what I would like to see.......
> 
> 25% or so of player characters/NPCs, at least one of each new race that has appeared since the last set. Minis with less visible weapons or such would be cooler as they could be an implement user, or warrior with weapons/implements not drawn.
> 
> ...




I also think for the most part that as many minis from each set as possible should be "edition neutral".  The only reason people that didn't switch to 4E (the same ones that WotC apparently miss since they are trying to court them with Essentials) have to buy anything from WotC is to get dungeon tiles and minis.  Having lots of 4E specific minis like the Fomorian Painbringer, and rot harbinger give them less reason to buy WotC minis.  Even some of the edition neutral minis seem to be 4Eified with cartoonish paint jobs and a newer "4E" look which makes them barley recognizable as classic D&D monsters or just  downright silly looking which also makes it less likely for them to be purchased by non-4E customers.


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## Herschel (Aug 11, 2010)

Fomorians were around LONG before 4E, so were Dragonborn (half-dragon templates galore IME). So that arguement doesn't hold water.

(The new water archon might get a slight mod in to my Causticsoul Thaneborn Barbarian with his helm of battle)


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## Markn (Aug 11, 2010)

This set does look good!

I do have a few questions though.

Any idea what the break down is in the box in terms of common/uncommon/rare?  And what does the new Very Rare mean - is is 1 per 4 box?  Does the Very Rare take the place of the Rare?

How many boosters are in a case?

As much as I am looking forward to the new set, I do NOT, repeat, do NOT like the Very Rare designation.  I have collected DDM since Harbinger and will happily buy more unless I find the Very Rare's to be a pain to get.  If thats the case, I will stop very, very soon.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 11, 2010)

Herschel said:


> Fomorians were around LONG before 4E, so were Dragonborn (half-dragon templates galore IME). So that arguement doesn't hold water.
> 
> (The new water archon might get a slight mod in to my Causticsoul Thaneborn Barbarian with his helm of battle)




So people should just sub dwarves for gnomes and halflings because they're all smallish?

The 4e dragonborn doesn't look like the 3e one or really, any other dragon variant we've seen.


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## frankthedm (Aug 11, 2010)

Markn said:


> This set does look good!
> 
> I do have a few questions though.
> 
> Any idea what the break down is in the box in terms of common/uncommon/rare?  And what does the new Very Rare mean - is is 1 per 4 box?  Does the Very Rare take the place of the Rare?



I'm guessing the very rare is the distinction given to the "Huge Rare". Huge rares have always been rarer than 'Rare' since the show up less often than "one per pack".


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## Zaukrie (Aug 12, 2010)

Peter, since you asked, I'm hoping that means we definitely get more minis next year.............

As for the mix, I'd have to give that more thought. It has a good balance between humanoids and monsters, so I'll get back to you. As always, I want more monsters we don't have yet (and, I'll admit I'm the only one likely to say this), but we have plenty of dragons. Bring on the monsters we don't have any of at all. This set has been in production for a long time, and you all knew Dark Sun was coming for a long time - I'd have liked some unique Dark Sun monsters.

I love, love, love what I've seen so far. Very unique sculpts.


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## Peraion Graufalke (Aug 12, 2010)

frankthedm said:


> I'm guessing the very rare is the distinction given to the "Huge Rare". Huge rares have always been rarer than 'Rare' since the show up less often than "one per pack".




Judging by their monster entries and from what I've read here, not all Very Rare minis are huge minis (and vice versa):
- Dispater, Iron Duke of Hell - medium
- Elder Blue Dragon
- Elder Copper Dragon
- Heroslayer Hydra
- Kalliroth, Githyanki Pirate - medium
- Mephistopheles, Lord of Cania
- Mind Flayer Noble - large
- Neogi Great Old Master - large



Now back to the wish list:
How about some primordials? Imix and Ogremoch, for example.


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## Shazman (Aug 12, 2010)

Herschel said:


> Fomorians were around LONG before 4E, so were Dragonborn (half-dragon templates galore IME). So that arguement doesn't hold water.
> 
> (The new water archon might get a slight mod in to my Causticsoul Thaneborn Barbarian with his helm of battle)




Except that the 4E version bears little resemblance to what Formorians used to look like.  Someone not playing 4E might as well use a storm giant for a formorian than the 4E mini.  I don't mind dragonborn.  They do make good half-dragons, and they were around before 4E.  I'm just saying that making newer sets less 4E specific would give them a broader appeal.


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## humble minion (Aug 12, 2010)

As for a wish list (though it's not going to be a long one, since most of my wishlist has been covered in the past set or two!  Bebiliths, nalfeshnees, death giants, hydras, green dragons and so on):

- Demogorgon
- Some human minis with a non-European aesthetic.  Personally as a Savage Tide GM I'd kill for some Aztec-looking minis, but I'll take what I can get - Aztec-style, Indian-style, Oriental, African, Egyptian WITHOUT being a mummy, Mongol, middle-eastern, native American, Australian Aboriginal, whatever.  While there's been a few generically dark-skinned minis over time, they're all basically dressed in standard-issue Euro-medieval fantasy clothing and equipment (with the exception of a few samurai and ninjas).  It'd be nice to have something a bit more non-standard for when PCs inevitably visit strange and foreign lands.  And even WotC settings are stuffed full of cultures that are direct ripoffs of historical human cultures after all...
- non-rare lesser outsiders, particularly ones found in large groups like bearded devils
- keep up the couple of non-combat minis that have been included in each set recently.  Treasure chests and bear traps and the trebuchet and so on.  I'm not a fan of the astral portal (how often do you need one of those?) but I'm a big fan of the principle.  It'd be great to see more non-combat CHARACTER models though, rather than object models - nobles, commoners, shopkeepers etc of both sexes and various ages would be great.  It's incredibly hard to find a non-armed miniature for an non-combatant NPC in need of rescue or protection.  
- a pennagolan and a hopping vampire
- a big fat crime lord/thieves' guildmaster with an oversized cigar
- a couple of amorphous sinewy horrors covered with eyes, tentacles and teeth (foulspawn are far too boringly humanoid for my Far Realmy taste)
- Modrons! (yeah, can't see that one happening...)


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## Jhaelen (Aug 12, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> Ah, I didn't put a smiley face so it was recognizable as being...ya know...a joke.
> 
> I sometimes forget how a smiley face makes or breaks an attempt at humor with gamers online. Of course you don't need those minis, that's why it's not to be taken seriously.



I'm sorry, then. 

I blame the language-barrier: Not being a native English speaker makes it double-tricky to detect humorous posts.


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## Fifth Element (Aug 12, 2010)

Shazman said:


> I'm just saying that making newer sets less 4E specific would give them a broader appeal.



Broader, but less specific. That is, being 4E-specific can be a draw for 4E fans, and if you take that away, you might lose their interest. So it cuts both ways.


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## Jor-El (Aug 12, 2010)

yeah, I'm not a big fan of "Very Rare", but then again, I'm not a big fan of randomized packaging of any sort. But, I realize the issues with selling minis. 

I wish they'd try selling minis in packs with the commons and uncommons visible, and one hidden rare (or very rare). That way you pretty much know what you're getting, and you're driven to buy more of the common figures to see what the hidden rare is. Especially if the hidden figures end up being the large or huge minis. 

Anyhoo, as to what I'd like to see more of...I'd love to see the rarity based on the qty of the critter you're likely to encounter in a game. Since the skirmish game is no longer supported, and the minis are purely produced for the RPG, the figure's rarity should reflect how many you're likely to encounter. 

I also want to second the notion that the RPG division and the Mini division should work together to make sure that the minis in development will match the RPG releases. I find it baffling that Dark Sun is the big release this summer, but there aren't any Dark Sun minis other than the Thri-Kreen...which isn't even Dark Sun specific. I mean, c'mon! Folks have been complaining about the disconnect between the two divisions for years...it just seems like a no-brainer. 

And I know that release schedules can make it difficult to release at the same time. They don't have to, but they should be fairly close.


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## Herschel (Aug 12, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Except that the 4E version bears little resemblance to what Formorians used to look like. Someone not playing 4E might as well use a storm giant for a formorian than the 4E mini. I don't mind dragonborn. They do make good half-dragons, and they were around before 4E. I'm just saying that making newer sets less 4E specific would give them a broader appeal.





You're kidding, right? Fomorians have been twisted, ugly, bug-eyed behemoths since 1982.


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## Herschel (Aug 12, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> So people should just sub dwarves for gnomes and halflings because they're all smallish?
> 
> The 4e dragonborn doesn't look like the 3e one or really, any other dragon variant we've seen.




In some cases, gnomes and halfling minis are really close. 

As for the dragonborn, you're SoL apparently because wanting a concept artist to do a vulcan mind meld with you from across the earth in order to draw up exactly what YOU want a dragonborn/half-dragon to look like is completely unrealistic.

Seriously, some times expectations are just so ridiculous and/or steeped in edition hate that there's no making some people happy.


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## Dausuul (Aug 12, 2010)

Herschel said:


> In some cases, gnomes and halfling minis are really close.
> 
> As for the dragonborn, you're SoL apparently because wanting a concept artist to do a vulcan mind meld with you from across the earth in order to draw up exactly what YOU want a dragonborn/half-dragon to look like is completely unrealistic.
> 
> Seriously, some times expectations are just so ridiculous and/or steeped in edition hate that there's no making some people happy.




Well, to be fair, there is the tail issue. Virtually all pre-4E half-dragons, draconians, and similar hybrids have tails. 4E, for reasons that are a mystery to me, decided dragonborn should be tail-less (but tieflings get long ugly flesh-colored things sticking out of their butts).

Me, I think tail-less dragonborn look silly, so I'm happy to pick over the old dragonoids. But I could see how someone more invested in the 4E version would find them unsatisfactory.

Got to agree with you on the fomorians though. 4E fomorians look quite remarkably like what I remember from the 2E Monstrous Compendium.


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## Oryan77 (Aug 12, 2010)

Dausuul said:


> (but tieflings get long ugly flesh-colored things sticking out of their butts).




Uhg, that's not the only thing wrong with the 4e Tieflings. Tieflings, out of any race, is the most disappointing change ever done to a race (I think anyway). 4e took my favorite race, and threw away what made them so interesting and dumbed them down into some generic half-breed.

Missing tails on a Half-Dragon is one thing, but 4e took the Tieflings "no two Tieflings look alike" characteristic and then made them all look alike. 



Jhaelen said:


> I blame the language-barrier: Not being a native English speaker makes it double-tricky to detect humorous posts.



That makes sense then. 
I thought for sure it was obviously an attempt at humor. I didn't think I was *that* lame. But then, even native English speakers on the forums sometimes don't know a joke when they see it.


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## Herschel (Aug 12, 2010)

So Tieflings should all be Very Rare and no two pieces by the same concept artist should ever be used?


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## Oryan77 (Aug 12, 2010)

Herschel said:


> So Tieflings should all be Very Rare and no two pieces by the same concept artist should ever be used?




Of course not. 4e took care of that.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 12, 2010)

Herschel said:


> In some cases, gnomes and halfling minis are really close.
> 
> As for the dragonborn, you're SoL apparently because wanting a concept artist to do a vulcan mind meld with you from across the earth in order to draw up exactly what YOU want a dragonborn/half-dragon to look like is completely unrealistic.
> 
> Seriously, some times expectations are just so ridiculous and/or steeped in edition hate that there's no making some people happy.




Uh... there are dozens if not hundreds of pictures of dragonborn in 4e. There's even a racial book on them.

No mind meld required.

Telling me that dracoians look like dragonmen on the other hand, is never going to fly without dwarves = all small races.


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## Zaukrie (Aug 12, 2010)

Do we have any idea when these will be released?


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## Shazman (Aug 13, 2010)

DDMspoilers says next month.


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## Dausuul (Aug 13, 2010)

Shazman said:


> DDMspoilers says next month.




September 21, to be exact.


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## Dice4Hire (Aug 13, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> So people should just sub dwarves for gnomes and halflings because they're all smallish?
> 
> The 4e dragonborn doesn't look like the 3e one or really, any other dragon variant we've seen.




Well, if you look THAT closely, or insist that the bottom of the mini match the race and class words on your character sheet, I think you are setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment,.


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## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 13, 2010)

A new preview up at WotC, giving a more clearer view of some of the minis:


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## ferratus (Aug 13, 2010)

This might be the first set that I actually buy the entire boxes for in a long time.

Aside from the shadar-kai, I don't mind a bunch of these commons.   I also can't think of any of those rares that I would be unhappy to get stuck with.   The only miniature I don't really like is the trihorn behemoth.


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## Dausuul (Aug 13, 2010)

Matrix Sorcica said:


> A new preview up at WotC, giving a more clearer view of some of the minis:




Ooh, the horse archer is shiny. Definitely want some of those, if they're not too pricey.

(I must spread some XP around, etc.)


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## humble minion (Aug 13, 2010)

Dausuul said:


> Ooh, the horse archer is shiny. Definitely want some of those, if they're not too pricey.




But its neck is so long!  It looks like a llama or something...

(hate to say it since it's a great subject for a mini, but still...)


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## Herschel (Aug 13, 2010)

Looks okay to me.





Have you ever seen a horse actually galloping without it's head held back by the reins?


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## Olaf the Stout (Aug 14, 2010)

WotC look to have done well with this set, filling in a lot of gaps, especially at the huge level.  The Huge Blue Dragon, Hydra, Bebelith and Nalfeshnee are all long overdue.

I have over a thousand of DDM's and I will still definitely be getting a case of these minis.  I imagine a lot of people with big collections will still be buying a fair few boxes of this set.

Olaf the Stout


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## avin (Aug 14, 2010)

Peter Lee said:


> Honestly, all the PC races other than Human, Elf, and Dwarf are underrepresented. (And I challenge you to find a female dwarf spellcaster before this set.)
> 
> Let's just take Dragonborn, Deva, Shardmind, Wilden, Genasi, Mul, and Thri-kreen as the most unrepresented. For me to do a caster/warrior version of each sex for these races, it's a minimum of 26 minis - almost half the set. For a product that primarily aimed at DMs, that's just too many. These days I can justify around 5, especially those that can do double duty as monsters/villains.
> 
> For this set, we have the Dragonborn spellcaster. I'd love to do more -- heck, I'd love to do a thousand minis a year -- but it's just not possible.




Hey Peter, there was a Modron on an official D&D podcast. Does that count for a mini?


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## Kunimatyu (Aug 14, 2010)

Based on Peter Lee's info from the recent preview, here's what is almost certainly the correct set breakdown:

You get 1 from each category in your pack except for the Common slot, which you get twice.

Medium/Small Common: (x2 per pack)
Human Town Guard
Kenku Warrior
Kobold Slinger
Orc Archer
Rot Grub Swarm
Shadar-Kai Warrior
Skeleton
Zhent Soldier 

Medium/Small Uncommon:
Arcane Portal 
Human Marauder 
Minotaur Mangler
Stormclaw Scorpion
Trapped Chest
Water Archon Shoal Reaver
Will-o'-Wisp
Zhent Champion

Large Uncommon/Rare/Very Rare:
Astral Giant (U)
Efreet Fireblade (U)
Stone Giant (U)
Oni Night Haunter (U)
Zhent Cavalry (U)
Crownwing (R)
Fettered Dracolich (R)
Young Volcanic Dragon (R)
Cloaker Lord (R)
Mephistopheles, Lord of Cania (VR)
Mind Flayer Noble (VR)
Neogi Great Old Master (VR)
Yeenoghu (VR)

Huge Uncommon/Rare/Very Rare:
Feymire Crocodile (U)
Iron Golem Juggernaut (U)
Rime Hound (U)
Trebuchet (U)
Trihorn Behemoth (U)
Draegloth Abomination (R)
Fomorian Painbringer (R)
Nalfeshnee (R)
Roc (R)
Bebilith (VR)
Elder Blue Dragon (VR)
Elder Copper Dragon (VR)
Heroslayer Hydra (VR)

Small/Medium Rare/Very Rare:
Bloodfiend (R)
Brain in a Jar (R)
Deva Fanatic (R)
Dragonborn Elementalist (R)
Dwarf Beguiler (R)
Kenku Wing Mage (R)
Neogi Slaver (R)
Orc Warchief (R)
Rot Harbinger (R)
Shadar-Kai Witch (R)
Shardmind Dominator (R)
Spell Weaver (R)
Swordwing (R)
Thri-Kreen Mantis Warrior (R)
C'tallum, Astral Hunter (VR)
Dispater, Iron Duke of Hell (VR)
Kalliroth, Githyanki Pirate (VR)
Manshoon (VR)


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## Dausuul (Aug 14, 2010)

Just occurred to me to ask... Peter, don't know if you're still around, but is there any possibility we might see a Gargantuan Green Dragon next year or so?

*crosses fingers*


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## DaveMage (Aug 14, 2010)

Olaf the Stout said:


> I have over a thousand of DDM's and I will still definitely be getting a case of these minis.




Same here.

I haven't bought a case since 2007, but I am this time!


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## Oryan77 (Aug 14, 2010)

avin said:


> Hey Peter, there was a Modron on an official D&D podcast. Does that count for a mini?




I think I've shown this here before, but this is my modron mini:


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## Oryan77 (Aug 14, 2010)

DaveMage said:


> Same here.
> 
> I haven't bought a case since 2007, but I am this time!




I just listed cases of LoM up for preorder on my site if you want to help a fellow poster out.


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## DaveMage (Aug 14, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> I just listed cases of LoM up for preorder on my site if you want to help a fellow poster out.




Already pre-ordered elsewhere, but once it's out, I'll check out your singles prices to fill in the gaps...


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## Fifth Element (Aug 14, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> I think I've shown this here before, but this is my modron mini:



I just use dice for modrons. It's almost like they were designed that way!


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## megamania (Aug 15, 2010)

When looking at the 1st ed modrons that was EXACTLY my thought.


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## megamania (Aug 15, 2010)

Yup.  Have not bought a case for a long time-   just singles from various web sites.

Looking to buy 2 maybe 3 cases this time.


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## avin (Aug 16, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> I think I've shown this here before, but this is my modron mini:




I've seen your Modron before, fantastic.


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## TheAuldGrump (Aug 16, 2010)

Well, I like the humongous wolf and the Brain in a Jar, at least.

The Auld Grump


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## Vicar In A Tutu (Aug 17, 2010)

Auggies sold preorders of the elder blue dragon and the heroslayer hydra at 40$ bucks each. The other very rares were much more affordable (both archfiends under 10$), and rares and uncommons in general were cheap. Oh how I hate VR-rarity. I really wanted both elder blue and the heroslayer, but now I may have to choose one over the other


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## MatthewJHanson (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm glad other people don't need dinosaurs as much as I do. That's a cheap heard of triceratops.


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## DaveMage (Aug 17, 2010)

Vicar In A Tutu said:


> Auggies sold preorders of the elder blue dragon and the heroslayer hydra at 40$ bucks each. The other very rares were much more affordable (both archfiends under 10$), and rares and uncommons in general were cheap. Oh how I hate VR-rarity. I really wanted both elder blue and the heroslayer, but now I may have to choose one over the other




D'oh!  I wish I had seen that before they all sold out....


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## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 18, 2010)

DaveMage said:


> D'oh!  I wish I had seen that before they all sold out....



Don't worry - he'll have more. Though I fear for the price..... (Although all the other preorders have fallen ever so slightly since I preordered yesterday )


Edit: More minis up. Yikes!! $50 for the elder blue


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## Cleanthes (Aug 22, 2010)

Re: what new minis I'd like to see, here's a few I wouldn't mind being able to plunk on the table (keeping in mind that I'm playing 3.5e and don't know if they've all been carried over to 4e, and I really use them only in my campaign):

-- A few more iconic fey creatures, but especially a pixie.  I've always been surprised this has never made it into a set.
-- Skulks.  
-- Like an earlier poster, I'd like to see a few more minis that aren't obviously waving a weapon around.  A couple aristocrats would be nice, maybe a merchant; they could have weapons in belts or whatnot but not be waving them around.  Or they could be described as spies, enchanters, illusionists or what have you that wouldn't necessarily rely on blades to do their damage.  And I could use them as NPC's in all sorts of encounters, some combat oriented, some not.  And how about maybe a bouncer?
-- More common skeletons, kobolds, zombies, and orcs.  I was thrilled to see the skeleton, kobold, and orc in this set.  More!
-- A common shocker lizard.  Another one I'm surprised has never made an appearance.
-- More animals and vermin: baboons, common small spiders, a bat swarm, fire beetles, centipede swarm, stuff like that.  Maybe an elephant rider?  More familiars could be nice too.  I know that a lot of animals can be found at stores like Michaels, and I wouldn't want WOTC to make stuff that just duplicates those, but there are some creatures that you can't really get at the right sizes, or indeed at all.
-- An assassin vine.  Another one I'm surprised hasn't been done.
-- Demodands.  Never a single demodand so far.
-- More common thug types -- not soldiers, not mercenaries, but thugs.  Can't have enough of those.
-- Someone earlier mentioned tribesmen, be they Aztec or whatever.  I want to second that.
-- Some kind of common ooze or slime that I could get a ton of for when they multiply.
-- Love the volcanic dragon in this set, now I want one that's Huge!  Don't really expect it, though :-(
-- For the next Colossal or whatnot, how about the Tarrasque?

Here's hoping!  Thanks for asking!  And for the record, I really like what I've seen of the next set; even where I don't think I'll use them, the level of artistry that went into these seems better than usual, and sometimes really magnificent.  (That hydra, OMG!  I hope someone got a good bonus for that one!)


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## DaveMage (Aug 23, 2010)

Matrix Sorcica said:


> Don't worry - he'll have more. Though I fear for the price..... (Although all the other preorders have fallen ever so slightly since I preordered yesterday )
> 
> 
> Edit: More minis up. Yikes!! $50 for the elder blue




Thanks!

I went ahead and ordered the complete set.  At $260 it seemed the best value.


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## Dausuul (Aug 23, 2010)

Question for those more experienced in the ways of DDM releases--when does one generally get the best price? Pre-ordering, ordering at time of release, or waiting a while after release? (I've bought a lot of singles, but mostly well after the sets were released.)


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## DaveMage (Aug 24, 2010)

Dausuul said:


> Question for those more experienced in the ways of DDM releases--when does one generally get the best price? Pre-ordering, ordering at time of release, or waiting a while after release? (I've bought a lot of singles, but mostly well after the sets were released.)




If you're buying singles, in my experience you will generally get the best price between months 1-3 after a release.  After a month, all of the "gotta have it now" folks have mostly made their purchases, so any stock still left (which normally includes 90%+ or so of the figures) will be marked down according to supply/demand.  (Note: this presumes sufficient initial distribution.  If they don't ship enough cases to fill existing pre-orders, that upsets the whole timeframe.)

Of course, sometimes it's hard to be patient....


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## auggest (Aug 24, 2010)

Dausuul said:


> Question for those more experienced in the ways of DDM releases--when does one generally get the best price? Pre-ordering, ordering at time of release, or waiting a while after release? (I've bought a lot of singles, but mostly well after the sets were released.)




That really depends on what your ordering. The way we set our prices revolves around an average we need to make. As some of the hot figures go up others go down by a corasponding amount to encourage them to sell. When we first list our preorders we generally set this amount we need to make about 20% above our normal markup average to account for any mistakes made in pricing (don't get me started on Mouse Droids ). As we tweak prices and release aproaches we get closer and closer to what we need to make average and can begin to lower that 20%. In fact single prices for LoM have already fallen by slightly over 10% since preorders began, some figures have gone up by a good margin though (Elder Blue, Hydra and a couple of the Large VR's mostly). 
So to answer your question, if you had ordred only those that went up you would be doing very well, if you buy a lot of various stuff it's better to wait a bit.
.......Andrew (aka auggie)


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## DaveMage (Aug 25, 2010)

auggest said:


> .......Andrew (aka auggie)




You've always been a pleasure to do business with.


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## blargney the second (Sep 25, 2010)

I got an ultra-rare at a FLGS for $15 today.  

I'm thoroughly impressed with the figures I've seen from this set.  I'd more or less stopped collecting when I got my Big Red, but Lords of Madness has pulled me back into the fold...
-blarg


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