# Tiers Excerpt (merged)



## Sojorn (Apr 16, 2008)

*Tiers Excerpt*

Like clockwork.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080416a


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## ppaladin123 (Apr 16, 2008)

*huge new excerpt up! Tiers, Powers, HP!*

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080416a

tiers and power info.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

*Excerpts - PHB, Tiers, Powers*

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080416a



> Only a scant few weeks remain until 4th Edition finally hits the shelves! We here at Wizards of the Coast couldn’t be more excited for June 6th to finally arrive (and then to participate with everyone at June 7th’s Worldwide D&D Game Day). For the past several months, we’ve introduced you to many of the concepts, philosophies, and details of 4th Edition, via D&D Insider’s columns and articles. So in the short time we have remaining, we wanted to share with you a little more, publishing excerpts from the three core rulebooks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, leading up to 4th Edition’s release.
> 
> The thirty levels of your career are divided into three tiers: the heroic tier (1st level through 10th level), the paragon tier (11th level through 20th level), and the epic tier (21st level through 30th level). When you leave one tier and cross the threshold into a new one, you experience some major increases in power. At the same time, the threats you face in a higher tier are much more lethal. In today’s previews, we look at information in the Player’s Handbook and the Dungeon Master’s Guide in regards to gameplay across the three tiers, as well as a look at starting your character at a higher level.
> 
> ...


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

Dang, I've been playing with those links all night hoping to be first!


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## Sojorn (Apr 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Dang, I've been playing with those links all night hoping to be first!



You weren't the only. Three threads! Think this one was expected?


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## ppaladin123 (Apr 16, 2008)

found so far:

* raise dead ritual available near end of heroic tier

* action points gain additional uses in the paragon tier

* flight is a paragon level spell

* ability score upgrades at 4th, 8th, 11th, 14th levels plus more...

* feat retraining is now official/core

* looks like feats are at 1, 2, 4, 6...and this progression starts again at next tier

* you can switch out powers. You'll eventually have up to 4 encounter powers, 4 daily powers and 6 utility powers per day.


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

The Daily Artwork and _Dragon_ has also been updated.


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## MaelStorm (Apr 16, 2008)

At last, Power Level Progression!


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## Vempyre (Apr 16, 2008)

holy that new excerpt has lots of crunch!

lots.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

So characters gain Encounter Powers at levels 1, 3, 7, 11P, 13, 17, 23 and 27, to a maximum of 4 encounter powers.
Daily Powrs are gained at levels 1, 5, 9, 15, 19, 20P, 25 ad 29, to a maximum of 4 daily powers.
Utility powers are gained at levels 2, 6, 10, 12P, 16, 22 and 26E to a maximum of 5 utility powers.

So the maximum number of powers a character can have is 15.


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

I find it interesting that epic destinies only grant utility powers and then not to 26th level.


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## Vempyre (Apr 16, 2008)

plus (maybe?) racial ones and powers gained from items n feats

uhg 2 threads is gonna be problematic though, hehe


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## Dragonblade (Apr 16, 2008)

So Defenders with 6 hp per level, Leaders/Strikers with 5 hp, and Controllers with 4 HP per level. Who called it?! Me, baby! 

Wow, that article is awesome! That is a lot of crunch. We also know the power progression too. Very nice. One other thing I noticed is the mention at feats not mattering at what level you get due to retraining. I assume then that whenever you acquire feats you can basically swap out older feats for new ones at the same time? Interesting.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Vempyre said:
			
		

> plus (maybe?) racial ones and powers gained from items n feats
> 
> uhg 2 threads is gonna be problematic though, hehe



Yes, I missed the racial powers!


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

Feats seem very flexible now due to retraining rules.  The progression for ability score increases starts out at every 4 levels and then every 3 levels at the paragon tier...so at the epic tier, is it every 2 levels?


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## thalmin (Apr 16, 2008)

Plus confirmation of the 8 included classes.


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## The B# (Apr 16, 2008)

actually, I'm thinking that ability score increase is 4th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 18th, 21st, 24th, and 28th. I'm thinking that it resets with each tier. could be wrong, though.


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

The B# said:
			
		

> actually, I'm thinking that ability score increase is 4th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 18th, 21st, 24th, and 28th. I'm thinking that it resets with each tier. could be wrong, though.




How so?


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## Dragonblade (Apr 16, 2008)

The B# said:
			
		

> actually, I'm thinking that ability score increase is 4th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 18th, 21st, 24th, and 28th. I'm thinking that it resets with each tier. could be wrong, though.




I believe this is correct.


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## Ktulu (Apr 16, 2008)

I pretty much called it on the powers per level.  I just didn't know about utility powers when I figured up the chart.  I assumed at-wills went up.  this is much, much cooler!

Color me excited.

Ktulu


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## HeavenShallBurn (Apr 16, 2008)

Also notice they're using Jason Engle as an artist more.  He'd done some Eberron stuff for them previously and some Dragon and Dungeon but I think I've noticed a few of his in Worlds and Monsters and possibly now in one or more of the main books if the dragon is an indication.


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## The B# (Apr 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> How so?




It seems to me that entering a new tier is essentially a reset of sorts. Maybe a better way of putting it is a new beginning. 

You pick a path (and eventually a destiny) instead of a class, etc.


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## Sojorn (Apr 16, 2008)

Oops


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

I do like they keep the at-will combat powers relevant by increasing the damage at 21st level.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Feats seem very flexible now due to retraining rules.



But I think you can only retrain one feat per level up.

In the article it says: "For example, a 14th-level character can’t have more than seven paragon feats (those gained at 11th, 12th, and 14th level, *as well as up to four retrained feats*)."

So the the character can have 7 paragon feats at level 14th. Three of these paragon feats he gained normally at levels 11th, 12th and 14th. The other four he gained by retraining his older normal feats at 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th level.


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

The B# said:
			
		

> It seems to me that entering a new tier is essentially a reset of sorts. Maybe a better way of putting it is a new beginning.
> 
> You pick a path (and eventually a destiny) instead of a class, etc.




I get that, but the progression seems to get shorter at the paragon tier (from every four levels to 3 levels, though to be fair, the counting starts from the last gain in the heroic tier).


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## Dragonblade (Apr 16, 2008)

The B# said:
			
		

> It seems to me that entering a new tier is essentially a reset of sorts. Maybe a better way of putting it is a new beginning.
> 
> You pick a path (and eventually a destiny) instead of a class, etc.




You still have your class. The paragon path and destiny stack on top of it.


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## Nine Hands (Apr 16, 2008)

Holy carp!  This is an excellent article.

I noticed this and smiled.  No more spending 50 million gold on magic items.

7. Choose Equipment and Magic Items. Mundane equipment is much less important for higher level characters than it is when you’re starting out. Choose whatever standard adventuring gear you want from the tables in the Player’s Handbook. For magic items, choose one item of your level +1, one item of your level, and one item of your level –1. In addition, you have gold pieces equal to the value of one magic item of your level –1. You can spend this money on rituals, potions, or other magic items, or save it for later.

This makes creation much easier now, just as long as the system for making magic items is well balanced.

The remainder of the article is really neat.  It was interesting to see that stat bumps were not every 4 levels, but started every 4 then moved to every 3, etc.  This may not be the actual progression but its a good guess.


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## Sojorn (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> So characters gain Encounter Powers at levels 1, 3, 7, 11P, 13, 17, 23 and 27, to a maximum of 4 encounter powers.
> Daily Powrs are gained at levels 1, 5, 9, 15, 19, 20P, 25 ad 29, to a maximum of 4 daily powers.
> Utility powers are gained at levels 2, 6, 10, 12P, 16, 22 and 26E to a maximum of 5 utility powers.
> 
> So the maximum number of powers a character can have is 15.



Ok, no, wait, recounted again, and it looks like 17. You get 7 utility powers, not 5?


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> But I think you can only retrain one feat per level up.
> 
> In the article it says: "For example, a 14th-level character can’t have more than seven paragon feats (those gained at 11th, 12th, and 14th level, *as well as up to four retrained feats*)."
> 
> So the the character can have 7 paragon feats at level 14th. Three of these paragon feats he gained normally at levels 11th, 12th and 14th. The other four he gained by retraining his older normal feats at 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th level.




Hmmm, 7 feats at 14th level seems to imply that a feat is gained at 1st level, 3rd level, 5th level, etc.  That's less feats than I thought you'd get.


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## Dragonblade (Apr 16, 2008)

My only concern is the references to observing distant creatures and being able to traverse continents in an instant. Sounds cool, but Scry-Buff-Teleport is something I hated in 3.5. I'll reserve judgement until I see it in play though.


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## Fallen Seraph (Apr 16, 2008)

Wow... We on the boards are so not going to be able to keep up with this info, by the time we are half done debating/arguing over the last thing. The new one will crop up.

I am liking what I am seeing though, also interesting thing with items:



> For magic items, choose one item of your level +1, one item of your level, and one item of your level –1.




Could this be the beginning of how we determine adjustments if you don't wish to have magic items?


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

Nine Hands said:
			
		

> Holy carp!  This is an excellent article.
> 
> I noticed this and smiled.  No more spending 50 million gold on magic items.
> 
> ...




Looks like they are using the system first previewed in the MIC.


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## The B# (Apr 16, 2008)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> You still have your class. The paragon path and destiny stack on top of it.




I meant that you choose those in the new tiers much like you choose a class in the heroic tier.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Sojorn said:
			
		

> Ok, no, wait, recounted again, and it looks like 17. You get 7 utility powers, not 5?



You are right, sorry. The low level utility powers are not replaced.

So characters gain Encounter Powers at levels 1, 3, 7, 11P, 13, 17, 23 and 27, to a maximum of 4 encounter powers.
Daily Powrs are gained at levels 1, 5, 9, 15, 19, 20P, 25 ad 29, to a maximum of 4 daily powers.
Utility powers are gained at levels 2, 6, 10, 12P, 16, 22 and 26E to a maximum of 7 utility powers.

So the maximum number of  powers a character can have is 17, plus any other pwoer from race, feats, items, etc.


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> My only concern is the references to observing distant creatures and being able to traverse continents in an instant. Sounds cool, but Scry-Buff-Teleport is something I hated in 3.5. I'll reserve judgement until I see it in play though.




I noticed that scrying and teleporting were epic tier rituals too.  However, I'd think that rituals probably take some time to perform and that buffs will still be of an extremely limited duration.  That should alleviate the problem.


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## Fallen Seraph (Apr 16, 2008)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> My only concern is the references to observing distant creatures and being able to traverse continents in an instant. Sounds cool, but Scry-Buff-Teleport is something I hated in 3.5. I'll reserve judgement until I see it in play though.




Well those are rituals, you may not be able to interweave rituals?


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Hmmm, 7 feats at 14th level seems to imply that a feat is gained at 1st level, 3rd level, 5th level, etc.  That's less feats than I thought you'd get.



Seven paragon feats. The character will also have others non-paragon feats. There is no way to know how many, yet.


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## Dragonblade (Apr 16, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> Could this be the beginning of how we determine adjustments if you don't wish to have magic items?




I predict that the +X of the implement/weapon your PC should have will increase every three levels. Such that you should have a +1 sword/wand by level 3, and a +10 one at level 30.

This makes a lot of sense if you consider that you get 8 stat bumps over 30 levels per the article. That's roughly a +14 modifier increase across 30 levels. +15 if you consider the stat bump every race (and probably humans) get at level 1.

This matches perfectly with the new math of 1/2 your level added to attacks and damage. 

Basically if you want to play a game without magic items, you would grant a flat bonus of 1/2 level to attack, defenses, and damage and you would be set. (Assuming you drop stat bumps, otherwise +1 every three levels.)


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

Wow, while it's probably been brought up before, but its going to be hard for a PC to break 200 hit points.


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## small pumpkin man (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> You are right, sorry. The low level utility powers are not replaced.
> 
> So characters gain Encounter Powers at levels 1, 3, 7, 11P, 13, 17, 23 and 27, to a maximum of 4 encounter powers.
> Daily Powrs are gained at levels 1, 5, 9, 15, 19, 20P, 25 ad 29, to a maximum of 4 daily powers.
> ...



Plus other class abilities like contrips and divine intervention.


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## MerricB (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> You are right, sorry. The low level utility powers are not replaced.
> 
> So characters gain Encounter Powers at levels 1, 3, 7, 11P, 13, 17, 23 and 27, to a maximum of 4 encounter powers.
> Daily Powrs are gained at levels 1, 5, 9, 15, 19, 20P, 25 ad 29, to a maximum of 4 daily powers.
> ...




Add in two "at will" powers chosen at character creation and not changed later!

Cheers!


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## Sojorn (Apr 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Hmmm, 7 feats at 14th level seems to imply that a feat is gained at 1st level, 3rd level, 5th level, etc.  That's less feats than I thought you'd get.



9 at 14th I bet!

1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 14th.

Switching tiers isn't a character reset, but you sure get way more at 11th and 21st than you do at any other level besides 1st.


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> Seven paragon feats. The character will also have others non-paragon feats. There is no way to know how many, yet.




True (need more charts!), but based on the comments in the article, it looks like you gain a feat at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 12th, and 14th.  Its similar to the ability score progression, since it seems to jump up in frequency at the paragon tier.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Add in two "at will" powers chosen at character creation and not changed later!
> 
> Cheers!



Already added m8


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## The B# (Apr 16, 2008)

Sojorn said:
			
		

> 9 at 14th I bet!
> 
> 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 14th.
> 
> Switching tiers isn't a character reset, but you sure get way more at 11th and 21st than you do at any other level besides 1st.




this is exactly as I see it


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

Sojorn said:
			
		

> 9 at 14th I bet!
> 
> 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 14th.
> 
> Switching tiers isn't a character reset, but you sure get way more at 11th and 21st than you do at any other level besides 1st.




Yeah, that's another possible progression, my last speculation is based on 3.x thinking. Also, I can't really count by 3 this late at night!


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 16, 2008)

Right.

This is a thing of absolute beauty.   The time I spent on the tables that dictated creating high level characters...

I do not have a photographic memory, but that one, that one I can see with my eyes shut.

Maybe things are worse in the actual book, but this seems far far superior.

And the tier system has me very enthused.  It's nice to have those styles of play spelled out explicitly.


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## Vaeron (Apr 16, 2008)

All of the pregen characters have waaaay more hitpoints than laid out in the article (twice as many, I believe).  Are there alternate methods, or were the pregens given double hitpoints to make the D&DE encounters easier?


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## The B# (Apr 16, 2008)

not at all

Kathra Ironforge had 33 HP
Fighter (level × 6) + 9 + Constitution score

(1 X 6) + 9 + 18 = 33

could go through the rest, but I'm sure it holds up


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> Right.
> 
> This is a thing of absolute beauty.   The time I spent on the tables that dictated creating high level characters...
> 
> ...




Manageable was the word that leapt to my mind upon reading the higher level character information.


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## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Vaeron said:
			
		

> All of the pregen characters have waaaay more hitpoints than laid out in the article (twice as many, I believe).  Are there alternate methods, or were the pregens given double hitpoints to make the D&DE encounters easier?



 Starting hp is calculated using Con score, not Con mod.


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## Sojorn (Apr 16, 2008)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> And the tier system has me very enthused.  It's nice to have those styles of play spelled out explicitly.



Indeed. Seems to really drive home just how exactly you're growing in power as your level gets higher, as opposed to your numbers just getting bigger.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> I predict that the +X of the implement/weapon your PC should have will increase every three levels. Such that you should have a +1 sword/wand by level 3, and a +10 one at level 30.
> 
> This makes a lot of sense if you consider that you get 8 stat bumps over 30 levels per the article. That's roughly a +14 modifier increase across 30 levels. +15 if you consider the stat bump every race (and probably humans) get at level 1.
> 
> ...



If this can enlight you a little more, it's a response from Chris Simms about this subject.



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> ainatan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jackston2 (Apr 16, 2008)

Wow, the idea of having a whole slew of per encounter abilities, more than can possibly be used in a single fight... it changes everything I had imagined about 4th edition combat.


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## Vaeron (Apr 16, 2008)

The B# said:
			
		

> Kathra Ironforge had 33 HP
> Fighter (level × 6) + 9 + Constitution score
> 
> (1 X 6) + 9 + 18 = 33




Ahh.. Constitution SCORE, not Constitution MODIFIER.  Yeah, my brain is gonna need some deprogramming hehe.

Thanks!


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## jackston2 (Apr 16, 2008)

Maybe regeneration gives you infinite Healing Surges.  That'd be cool.


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## Minigiant (Apr 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's another possible progression, my last speculation is based on 3.x thinking. Also, I can't really count by 3 this late at night!




I'd go with 4 feats per tier.
1 at the first tier level
1 at the 2nd tier level
1 at the 4th
1 somewhere else

So 1st, 2nd, 4th, Xth, 11th, 12th, 14th, 10+Xth, 21th, 22th, 24th, 20+Xth.

Because of retraining (you not longer have to "wait for new feats"),  my guess for X is 10 or 8


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 16, 2008)

Edit: Totally Late

I LOVE these new previews... a thing of beauty.

Fitz


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## Fallen Seraph (Apr 16, 2008)

jackston2 said:
			
		

> Maybe regeneration gives you infinite Healing Surges.  That'd be cool.




I imagine it be more, a gradual regrowth of Health... Perhaps could use a Recharge Mechanic, with how high you score determining how well you regenerate that turn.


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## EvolutionKB (Apr 16, 2008)

Genius by WotC.  Give a little taste every now at then...then closer to the release date, push out more and more crunch to get people even more hyped up.  That said, this preview is pure gold.  A good amount of powers, and a good feel of what the tiers are like.  What I want to see next is some more stuff on races.


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## small pumpkin man (Apr 16, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> I imagine it be more, a gradual regrowth of Health... Perhaps could use a Recharge Mechanic, with how high you score determining how well you regenerate that turn.



We have seen a regenerate ability that just lets you heal 20 as a minor. There have been others that let you regenerate at certain points, I doubt it will be universal.


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Apr 16, 2008)

From the description of the paragon tier:



> They can spend action points to gain additional effects, are able to use magic rings, and *can sometimes regain limited powers they’ve expended.*




So there is some kind of recharge mechanic.


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## Kishin (Apr 16, 2008)

Wow, this is quite a flood of information. Note how your Paragon path only awards you a daily at the end of the Paragon tier.

I'm slightly disappointed at what seems like a low number of powers (I like neat things, I admit), but I'm willing to see how it all plays out.


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## Benimoto (Apr 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Wow, while it's probably been brought up before, but its going to be hard for a PC to break 200 hit points.



Yeah, the HP chart is pretty interesting.  It looks like one reason some of the high-level monsters don't seem to do a lot of damage is that PCs don't actually have as many HP as the monsters might.  After all, the monsters we've seen have (6, 8 or 10 HP * (level +1)) + Con score for HP.  PCs have 4, 5 or 6 HP/level plus that other stuff.

If that's right, that's another asymmetry between PCs and monsters.  PCs have less HP, and presumably do more damage than equal-level monsters.


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## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Great article. Now giev! 6th of June


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## Mercule (Apr 16, 2008)

Benimoto said:
			
		

> If that's right, that's another asymmetry between PCs and monsters.  PCs have less HP, and presumably do more damage than equal-level monsters.



This should make games like mine that have more PC-race foes than monstrous foes interesting and deadly.

Unless, of course, the NPC classes take this into consideration and are similarly asymmetric.


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## KidSnide (Apr 16, 2008)

Kishin said:
			
		

> I'm slightly disappointed at what seems like a low number of powers (I like neat things, I admit), but I'm willing to see how it all plays out.




Keep in mind that you'll also have up to 8-10 other abilities from your magic items.  

Plus, feats (which look like 6 feats / tier) may be usable for training abilities like the half-elf's where you can take another class's at-will as a per-encounter or maybe another class's encounter power as a per-day?


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## Kobold Avenger (Apr 16, 2008)

They seem to neglect mentioning class features and abilities

Not even a note like "remember to check your class' table of features" since we know some abilities like sneak attack do increase at different tiers.


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## small pumpkin man (Apr 16, 2008)

Benimoto said:
			
		

> Yeah, the HP chart is pretty interesting.  It looks like one reason some of the high-level monsters don't seem to do a lot of damage is that PCs don't actually have as many HP as the monsters might.  After all, the monsters we've seen have (6, 8 or 10 HP * (level +1)) + Con score for HP.  PCs have 4, 5 or 6 HP/level plus that other stuff.
> 
> If that's right, that's another asymmetry between PCs and monsters.  PCs have less HP, and presumably do more damage than equal-level monsters.



Perhaps, remember that PCs have larger kicker, if magic items can also give hp it well be a case of different paths to similar ends.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Kishin said:
			
		

> I'm slightly disappointed at what seems like a low number of powers (I like neat things, I admit), but I'm willing to see how it all plays out.



I also had that feeling at first regarding the Wizard and Cleric.
But then I remembered that table is for everyone. The wizard gets more Daily Powers since he can choose those he wants to use for the day, and he also gain cantrips which are not included in the table.
Clerics probably gain more powers too. The pregen Cleric has 3 at-wills, and 4 encounters, plus the encounter gained from the Feat.

So in that table are not the Powers from feats, racial Powers, Cantrips and other "Class Feature" Powers, and powers from magic items.
Some Characters will probably have some 25-30 powers, or even more, on their menu.


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## Vaeron (Apr 16, 2008)

Mercule said:
			
		

> This should make games like mine that have more PC-race foes than monstrous foes interesting and deadly.
> 
> Unless, of course, the NPC classes take this into consideration and are similarly asymmetric.




If you look at Monsters & More, where monster stats have been compiled, even PC race foes are calculated as monsters, not as PCs...  ie the Human Mage has monster-level hitpoints and only a couple spells.  No reason I suppose that you couldn't make enemies that work just like PCs, but it seems they would in general be weaker than their monstrous counterparts.


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## Kishin (Apr 16, 2008)

KidSnide said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that you'll also have up to 8-10 other abilities from your magic items.
> 
> Plus, feats (which look like 6 feats / tier) may be usable for training abilities like the half-elf's where you can take another class's at-will as a per-encounter or maybe another class's encounter power as a per-day?




Ah, well said. I had forgotten about items.

The recharge mechanic for limited powers also interests me. Perhaps its one of the 'expanded' usages of action points?


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## breschau (Apr 16, 2008)

My head's going to explode.


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## MaelStorm (Apr 16, 2008)

A minor nitpick I have with power progression is that you only have 2 at-will power. I'd prefer a little bit more variety as you progress (i.e. you can change your 2 at-will powers at paragon and epic tier with new ones). But I will get over this. I love everything else.


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## Vaeron (Apr 16, 2008)

MaelStorm said:
			
		

> A minor nitpick I have with power progression is that you only have 2 at-will power. I'd prefer a little bit more variety as you progress (i.e. you can change your 2 at-will powers at paragon and epic tier with new ones). But I will get over this. I love everything else.




You might be able to swap them out as you progress.  The section on higher level characters dealt mostly with encounter, dailys, and utilities.  All it really says is  "You know two at-will powers from your class; remember to increase damage if your level is 21st or higher. "  It doesn't really say those will be the *same* two at-will powers you pick up at 1st level.  

At least I hope not.  That would be boring!!


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## MaelStorm (Apr 16, 2008)

Vaeron said:
			
		

> You might be able to swap them out as you progress.  The section on higher level characters dealt mostly with encounter, dailys, and utilities.  All it really says is  "You know two at-will powers from your class; remember to increase damage if your level is 21st or higher. "  It doesn't really say those will be the *same* two at-will powers you pick up at 1st level.
> 
> At least I hope not.  That would be boring!!



QFT. We'll see June 6.


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## ShockMeSane (Apr 16, 2008)

*A few points*

Hey guys, been lurking here for quite awhile, but the last few updates finally got me excited enough to register.

With that out of the way, a couple points:

*While only 2 "at-will" powers may seem kind of low, keep in mind that this number can very possibly be increased by class features, feats, certain paragon paths, race, etc. From the pre-gens we already know this is the case. Additionally, you will have encounter abilities from many of your magic items. If you really look at it, a level 20+ character will be able to have at "minimum", completely disregarding any of the aforementioned possibilities, 2 at wills, 4 encounter, 4 daily, and 5(up to 7 at 30) utility powers to use in any given combat. This is 15 viable options per round, and it makes the wild assumption that you will not be using your items or gaining any other powers through feats/class specific features, etc. Honestly, outside of a Wizard (and even then... it was a close thing) I never felt I had 15 legitimate options in 3.x during a combat round. Certainly not as a melee class.

Also, keep in mind that these are "combat" powers. Spellcasters will have access to Rituals as well, and although we do not have much information on them, I think it is safe to say that the the "Powers by Class Level" chart is not the breadth of what your character can accomplish.

* While it may be old news to some, this is the first time I've seen that Constitution is a one time hit point modifier. Under the 3.x rules, 18 Con vs 8 Con at 30th level would be a 150 hit point difference. If it is now merely a 10 hit point difference, this is (to borrow an MMO term) a massive nerf to CON (and in a roundabout way, a massive buff to the "Toughness" feat that we've seen). Additionally, if your Fort Defense is based on the highest of either your STR or CON modifier, I don't see any particular incentive for Defenders to worry about massive CON scores. This assumption precludes requirements for Feats, Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies, ect.

Anyways, very exciting stuff!


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## small pumpkin man (Apr 16, 2008)

ShockMeSane said:
			
		

> * While it may be old news to some, this is the first time I've seen that Constitution is a one time hit point modifier. Under the 3.x rules, 18 Con vs 8 Con at 30th level would be a 150 hit point difference. If it is now merely a 10 hit point difference, this is (to borrow an MMO term) a massive nerf to CON (and in a roundabout way, a massive buff to the "Toughness" feat that we've seen). Additionally, if your Fort Defense is based on the highest of either your STR or CON modifier, I don't see any particular incentive for Defenders to worry about massive CON scores. This assumption precludes requirements for Feats, Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies, ect.
> 
> Anyways, very exciting stuff!



The amount of healing surges (and thus healing per day) you have is based of con. Most non-defenders in a party with a defender won't care, but a defender, or any other character shuffled into the meatshield role will.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Using the information we got from the Excerpts,  Pregens and some speculation, I think this is a probable progression.


```
Level	Power
1	2 [COLOR=Green]At-Will[/COLOR], [COLOR=Red]Encounter[/COLOR], Daily, [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]
2	[COLOR=Sienna]Utility[/COLOR] / [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
3	[COLOR=Red]Encounter[/COLOR]
4	[COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
5	Daily
6	[COLOR=Sienna]Utility[/COLOR], [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
7	[COLOR=Red]Encounter[/COLOR]
8	[COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
9	Daily
10	[COLOR=Sienna]Utility[/COLOR]

11	[COLOR=Red]Paragon Encounter[/COLOR], [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]
12	[COLOR=Sienna]Paragon Utility[/COLOR], [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]
13	[COLOR=Red]Encounter[/COLOR]
14	[COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]
15	Daily
16	[COLOR=Sienna]Utility[/COLOR], [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
17	[COLOR=Red]Encounter[/COLOR]
18	[COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
19	Daily
20	Paragon Daily

21	[COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
22	[COLOR=Sienna]Utility[/COLOR], [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
23	[COLOR=Red]Encounter[/COLOR]
24	[COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
25	Daily
26	[COLOR=Sienna]Epic Utility[/COLOR], [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
27	[COLOR=Red]Encounter[/COLOR]
28	[COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]*
29	Daily
30
```
*: Speculative


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## The_Fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Seems like all you get for level 30 is a gold watch, a handshake, and a pension, courtesy of your epic destiny.


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## TwinBahamut (Apr 16, 2008)

I love this update.

I admit that I am just surprised that it seems the only power you get from your Epic Destiny is a utility power, rather than a daily or encounter power... I imagine that such a utility power must be very useful indeed. Considering the text regarding the epic tier, the epic utilities must be capable of breaking game rules and turning everything upside-down. I really hope they give us a sample soon.

Also, the rules for assigning magic items to a character of higher level is pure elegance.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

The_Fan said:
			
		

> Seems like all you get for level 30 is a gold watch, a handshake, and a pension, courtesy of your epic destiny.



lol
Maybe the character gains another feat, or a something very very special.

Or maybe the article's table is wrong. Maybe the character gains an Epic Encounter at 21, and an Epic Daily at 30. It would make sense considering the logic of the progression.


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## Fallen Seraph (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> lol
> Maybe the character gains another feat, or a something very very special.




Perhaps at level 30, you fully realize your "Epic Destiny" and thus unlock something unique to that Destiny.


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## brislove (Apr 16, 2008)

> Originally Posted by Benimoto
> Yeah, the HP chart is pretty interesting. It looks like one reason some of the high-level monsters don't seem to do a lot of damage is that PCs don't actually have as many HP as the monsters might. After all, the monsters we've seen have (6, 8 or 10 HP * (level +1)) + Con score for HP. PCs have 4, 5 or 6 HP/level plus that other stuff.
> 
> If that's right, that's another asymmetry between PCs and monsters. PCs have less HP, and presumably do more damage than equal-level monsters.




I'm looking at a couple D&D minis cards (the back sides with monster stats...)

Level 6 brute (gnoll marauder) with a 14 con score has 54 HP. a level 6 defender with a 14 con would have 59 (9+14+36). that seems fairly equivlent to me. 

level 19 Soldier (Ice archhon) 19 con 117 HP. Vs. Defender with the same con has 142.
6x19=114+19(con score)+9=142 (assuming that 

I don't think damage delt is going to scale as quickly as it seems many people are expecting...combats will last 10/15/20 rounds or more at higher levels, the damage output doesn't seem to increase by a massive amount. 

note: Defenders will break 200hp by 30. since 30x6 is 180 and they get 9 for free. I hope they have at least 11 con score. I'm fairly confidant that there will be other ways of gaining hp aside from the basic stats as well.


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## Cadfan (Apr 16, 2008)

Prediction- paragon paths and epic destinies also come with always-applicable abilities, other than your selection of path or destiny powers.

There's just too much design space available for all possible always-active abilities to be given out at first level.  The game will need a new injection of them after a while, as more powerful abilities become balanced.  Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies are the logical point to distribute these.


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## malcolm_n (Apr 16, 2008)

hehe, maybe there is no level 30...  Maybe, you gain experience to level 30, but upon reaching the end goal, the game just says, "congratulations, You're now a story device."


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## FireLance (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> Using the information we got from the Excerpts,  Pregens and some speculation, I think this is a probable progression.



I think ability score increases fill in the gaps between powers. It was mentioned that you get ability score increases at 4th, 8th, 11th and 14th level which, with the exception of 11th level (the starting level for the paragon tier), are levels in which you get no new abilities.

This implies that we might also see ability score increases at 18th, 21st, 24th and 28th level, as previously speculated.


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## small pumpkin man (Apr 16, 2008)

brislove said:
			
		

> note: Defenders will break 200hp by 30. since 30x6 is 180 and they get 9 for free. I hope they have at least 11 con score. I'm fairly confidant that there will be other ways of gaining hp aside from the basic stats as well.



Toughness and 20 con gives you 241. You might be able to go higher, but I think it's unlikely to be by much.


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## D'karr (Apr 16, 2008)

It seems like they really are making a huge effort to keep the game exciting at every level.  No more dead levels.  I agree that the entry into each tier is the perfect place to infuse additional powers or retrain old ones.

The explanations of each tier and what you might expect to encounter at each was also exciting.

Now that I've seen how progression will work, my first mission when 4e comes out is a conversion of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.  My October game is going to rock.

And the following quote totally rocked:



> In the heroic tier, your character is already a hero, set apart from the common people by your natural talents, learned skills, and some hint of a greater destiny that lies before you. Your capabilities are largely determined by your choice of character class and to a lesser extent by your race. You move around on foot or on a relatively mundane mount such as a horse. In combat, you might make mighty leaps or incredible climbs, but you’re still basically earthbound. The fate of a village might hang on the success or failure of your adventures, to say nothing of the risk to your own life.




No more dirt farmers killed by single blows and an awesome justification for it.

Now to wait for the "but I don't want my first level character to be a hero."  "Everyone should start as a dirt farmer" crowd.


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## D'karr (Apr 16, 2008)

malcolm_n said:
			
		

> hehe, maybe there is no level 30...  Maybe, you gain experience to level 30, but upon reaching the end goal, the game just says, "congratulations, You're now a story device."




Level 30 is known as the "There is no spoon level"


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## TwinBahamut (Apr 16, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> Perhaps at level 30, you fully realize your "Epic Destiny" and thus unlock something unique to that Destiny.



I 100% certain that, at level 30, you get some kind capstone "ultimate class feature" from either your class, your destiny, or both. Enough things like that exist in the 3.0 PHB, after all.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if one level-30 reward was "you are now a demi-god", followed up by a long list of amazing properties of being a demi-god, including complete immortality.


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## D'karr (Apr 16, 2008)

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> I 100% certain that, at level 30, you get some kind capstone "ultimate class feature" from either your class, your destiny, or both. Enough things like that exist in the 3.0 PHB, after all.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if one level-30 reward was "you are now a demi-god", followed up by a long list of amazing properties of being a demi-god, including complete immortality.




Yeah, I really hope they don't make the same mistake they made with 3.x where some classes got nothing exciting at 20th level.

Maybe the stuff you get at that level is more dependent on your race or specific Epic Destiny.


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## Darkness (Apr 16, 2008)

D'karr said:
			
		

> Now to wait for the "but I don't want my first level character to be a hero."  "Everyone should start as a dirt farmer" crowd.



 I think the simplest fix for this would be creating rules for level 0 characters and using that as starting point instead of level 1.


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## Campbell (Apr 16, 2008)

ShockMeSane said:
			
		

> While it may be old news to some, this is the first time I've seen that Constitution is a one time hit point modifier. Under the 3.x rules, 18 Con vs 8 Con at 30th level would be a 150 hit point difference. If it is now merely a 10 hit point difference, this is (to borrow an MMO term) a massive nerf to CON (and in a roundabout way, a massive buff to the "Toughness" feat that we've seen). Additionally, if your Fort Defense is based on the highest of either your STR or CON modifier, I don't see any particular incentive for Defenders to worry about massive CON scores. This assumption precludes requirements for Feats, Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies, ect.




While I agree that Constitution will not be as critical of a stat as it was in 3e I think it will at least be fairly important for Defenders since your number of Healing Surges is modified by your Constitution modifier which means that the difference between an Constitution score of 18 and 8 can mean roughly +125% of your max hp over the course of a day. A high Constitution score might not have a significant impact on the punishment you can take right now, but it will have an appreciable impact on how long you can go between extended rests.


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## AZRogue (Apr 16, 2008)

Awesome, awesome excerpt. This is great, WotC. This kind of info we can really sink our teeth into and we appreciate it! I love what I see so far. Very, very nicely done.

My one complaint is that I don't like losing previous Encounter/Daily powers, but it looks like, upon further reading, that this doesn't have to be the case.

If you kept your previous powers, just because I hate the idea of "forgetting" them, it would add up to, I think (it's late), a total of:  

2  At-will
8  Encounter
8  Daily
7  Utility

That's a total of 25 abilities, which isn't that far off 17. Doesn't it say you can keep your old powers if you want? I think this would be possible, and not overly powerful (ESPECIALLY in a low magic-item campaign). When it says that the powers aren't cumulative I think they mean you don't choose another Encounter power at 2nd level, even though it says "1" in the encounter power column. That just represents your 1 encounter power from 2nd level. They aren't cumulative. 

That combined with the "but you can keep your lower level ones if you wish" comment leads me to believe that you can have a total of 25 powers, not 17, if you wish. At least that is how it looks to me.


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## Khuxan (Apr 16, 2008)

Each time you choose a new power, you should have a choice between around 4 powers. I say this because there are 21 places you acquire new class powers, and we know the druid has roughly 80 powers (at least in its first draft).


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## TwinBahamut (Apr 16, 2008)

Campbell said:
			
		

> While I agree that Constitution will not be as critical of a stat as it was in 3e I think it will at least be fairly important for Defenders since your number of Healing Surges is modified by your Constitution modifier which means that the difference between an Constitution score of 18 and 8 can mean roughly +125% of your max hp over the course of a day. A high Constitution score might not have a significant impact on the punishment you can take right now, but it will have an appreciable impact on how long you can go between extended rests.



Not to mention the fact that, supposedly, there are axe powers that depend on Constitution, which means that Con can now be used as an offensive stat, rather than merely a defensive one. Also, isn't there now a new skill or two that depends on Con? It is no longer so absolutely important for survival, but it seems a lot more flexible now.


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## dystmesis (Apr 16, 2008)

Darkness said:
			
		

> I think the simplest fix for this would be creating rules for level 0 characters and using that as starting point instead of level 1.




Easy. You get your con score to your HP and nothing else. You get no special bonus to any of your saves. You have no special powers or abilities except those granted by your race and possibly feats.

Skills might be the hard part.


----------



## Ondo (Apr 16, 2008)

AZRogue said:
			
		

> My one complaint is that I don't like losing previous Encounter/Daily powers, but it looks like, upon further reading, that this doesn't have to be the case.



I'm pretty sure you have to forgot one of your earlier powers - the table assumes you'll chose your lowest level power to forget, but you could forget a higher-level one instead.


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## AZRogue (Apr 16, 2008)

Ondo said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure you have to forgot one of your earlier powers - the table assumes you'll chose your lowest level power to forget, but you could forget a higher-level one instead.




You're probably right, but unless the new powers are clearly built off of the older ones (like natural progressions of the same ability) then I think "forgetting" an old ability when you get a new one is too much of a disconnect for me. It's like a bad Reese's peanut buttercups commerical--they got their Vancian in my martial combat abilities. And they don't taste great together.


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## D'karr (Apr 16, 2008)

The thing about powers is that you can still only use them once per round, or twice with the expenditure of an action point.  So even if you get to keep your older powers all it does is give you more versatility.  A low level power might or might not be appropriate for the level you want to use it at, but at that point who cares?


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## AZRogue (Apr 16, 2008)

D'karr said:
			
		

> The thing about powers is that you can still only use them once per round, or twice with the expenditure of an action point.  So even if you get to keep your older powers all it does is give you more versatility.  A low level power might or might not be appropriate for the level you want to use it at, but at that point who cares?




I agree. We are going to be gaining new powers from magical items, as they've already said. I don't think it would be that game breaking to let players keep their older powers instead of "trading" them in like they're Toyotas. Probably wouldn't use them much, but they should BE there, IMO.


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## AntiPaladin (Apr 16, 2008)

I was most surprised by the HP chart, as players level up the total difference between a fighter and wizard will shrink relative to each other.  Also the +7HP vs. +9HP at character generation seems odd.  Simplicity is always welcome I suppose.  That extra 2HP will make very little difference at the EDT.


----------



## Chris_Nightwing (Apr 16, 2008)

Why El Rouse, with these frequent updates you are really spoiling us! </ferrerorocher>

The table looks great for constructing high-level characters, but I hope there's a clearer one (as constructed somewhere earlier in the thread) where you can view your advancement. The tiers look like they'll work really well - as you reach a new one you slowly transfer your feats and powers into upgraded versions, ready to top out for the next tier. They should eliminate the grinding aspect that many level-up games suffer.


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## Ondo (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> Using the information we got from the Excerpts,  Pregens and some speculation, I think this is a probable progression.



I'd guess you get a feat at 10th, 20th, and 30th in addition to all the others.  I'd also include stat boosts, which we know are at 4th, 8th, 11th, 14th, and probably 18th, 21st, 24th, and 28th as well.

Here's a different look at the info, merging the equivalent levels of different tiers into a single line since they're normally the same:

```
Level	Power
 1/11/21  [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR] (also 2 [COLOR=Green]At-Will[/COLOR], [COLOR=Red]Encounter[/COLOR], Daily at 1st; [COLOR=Red]Paragon Encounter[/COLOR] at 11th; [COLOR=Yellow]Stat Increase[/COLOR] at 11th and 21st)
 2/12/22  [COLOR=Sienna]Utility[/COLOR] (from Paragon Path at 12th), [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]
 3/13/23  [COLOR=Red]Encounter[/COLOR]
 4/14/24  [COLOR=Yellow]Stat Increase[/COLOR], [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]
 5/15/25  Daily
 6/16/26  [COLOR=Sienna]Utility[/COLOR] (from Epic Destiny at 26th), [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]
 7/17/27  [COLOR=Red]Encounter[/COLOR]
 8/18/28  [COLOR=Yellow]Stat Increase[/COLOR], [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR]
 9/19/29  Daily
10/20/30  [COLOR=Blue]Feat[/COLOR] (also [COLOR=Sienna]Utility[/COLOR] at 10th, Paragon Daily at 20th)
```


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

The Rouse was not understating that we haven't seen much of marketing yet...

Very interesting preview. I absolutely didn't expect seeing something on the "starting at higher level" stuff. Like it, though I agree with others that there seem to be some class-specific details missing. 



			
				dystmesis said:
			
		

> Easy. You get your con score to your HP and nothing else. You get no special bonus to any of your saves. You have no special powers or abilities except those granted by your race and possibly feats.



Sounds as if you're missing any class related features, too. You really are a dirt farmer, and nothing else. (Not a Wizard Apprentice, nor a squire, nor a beginning acolyte)

I'd add one at-Will power as a per encounter power, and one encounter power as a daily power. (I suppose Wizards get to choose one out of two encounter powers each day, to retain the Vancian feel)

You get Healing Surges equal to your Con Bonus, +2 for Defender, +1 for Striker/Leader, +0 for Controller classes, with a minimum of 1.



> Skills might be the hard part.



You get only half of the normal skills for your class? Or do you want a lower bonus? In that case, +2 instead of +5, equal number of trained skills.


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## FabioMilitoPagliara (Apr 16, 2008)

0th level character

they could buy skill and powers by study and apprentice and practice, until they can fully call themselves "1st level character"

0th level
no second wind to 0th level character
less healing surges
hp=cos
1 or 2 trained skills
1 trained weapon

0,3 level
add some class feature a smattering of hp and second wind
(I would go for one at-will)

0,6 level
add some other class feature more hp and more healing surges
one encounter power
another at will

1st level
you get your daily powers and all class features


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## Ondo (Apr 16, 2008)

AntiPaladin said:
			
		

> Also the +7HP vs. +9HP at character generation seems odd.



For what it's worth, it seems to be one and a half times the HP per level.

So you could also express the fighter's HP as (level + 1.5) * 6 + Constitution score, if you wanted to.


----------



## ForbidenMaster (Apr 16, 2008)

Just want to put a few things in perspective:

A 9th level rouge (keeping it Heroic incase something changes between tiers) with a 13 con will have 65 HP and (as per the Sneak Attack article) 7 healing surges (assuming you dont gain healing surges when you level).  If 1 healing surge heals you 1/4 of your HP (rounded down to next integer) then the total HP for a level 9 rouge in one day is 177.

A 9th level rouge with a 14 con will have 66 HP, 8 healing surges, and 194 total HP for the day.

A level 9 rouge with a 15 con will have 67HP, 8 healing surges, and only 195 total HP for the day.

And finally a level 9 rouge with a 16 con will have 68 HP, 9 healing surges, and 221 HP for the day.

So while short changes in your con score will just barely effect your encounter HP, a change in your con modifier will have a big effect on your total possible HP for a day.


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## Derren (Apr 16, 2008)

Seems like all the "problem spells" are still in the game so prepare for lots of whining from people who had their plots ruined by rituals....


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Ondo said:
			
		

> Here's a different look at the info, merging the equivalent levels of different tiers into a single line since they're normally the same:



Another way to look at it is dividing it into the Tiers:

Heroic Tier:
2 At-Wills
3 Encounter
3 Dailies
3 Utilities
5 Feats

Paragont Tier:
3 Encounters
3 Dailies
2 Utilities
5 Feats

Epic Tier
2 Encounter
2 Dailies
2 Utilities
5 Feats

OBS: Feat number is still mostly speculation.


----------



## ShockMeSane (Apr 16, 2008)

small pumpkin man said:
			
		

> The amount of healing surges (and thus healing per day) you have is based of con. Most non-defenders in a party with a defender won't care, but a defender, or any other character shuffled into the meatshield role will.




Ah, thats a really good point. Just to make myself clear, in any case I thought CON was far too dominant a stat in previous editions of D&D. I wouldn't have felt comfortable playing with a CON less than 14 (unless you used max hp/level houserule). I'm sure that'll draw some peoples accusations of "powergaming", but I never found it particularly fun to have my characters 1-shotted. Fortunately I DM in 80% of our games and let my players play with max hps/level.

Also, as to the matter of hitpoints at level 30, with Toughness 200+ is very attainable, and although purely speculative, I'd be surprised if their isn't a Paragon/Epic feat that grants more hps than Toughness. 300 is still probably quite reachable.

Also, the Healing Surges in relation to overall Hp/day put the new CON stat in an interesting light. Thanks for the observations.

[Edited for grammar, Healing Surge info]


----------



## ForbidenMaster (Apr 16, 2008)

AntiPaladin said:
			
		

> I was most surprised by the HP chart, as players level up the total difference between a fighter and wizard will shrink relative to each other.
> 
> [...]



What are you talking about?  A first level fighter with a 10 con will have 25HP and a first level wizard with a 10 con will have 20HP.  But at 10th level the fighter will have 79HP and the wizard will have 56HP.


----------



## jensun (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Seems like all the "problem spells" are still in the game so prepare for lots of whining from people who had their plots ruined by rituals....



Except that you have no idea how they are actually implemented so any whining is completely premature.  

*notes the reference to retraining feats*

*waits for the inevitable 4e is becoming a MMORPG with its respeccing whine to begin*


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Seems like all the "problem spells" are still in the game so prepare for lots of whining from people who had their plots ruined by rituals....



I don't see any description of those rituals in the article, or how they work.
What are talking about??

And I just can't wait for some well-founded whinings. I'm just tired of unfounded ones...


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

jensun said:
			
		

> *waits for the inevitable 4e is becoming a MMORPG with its respeccing whine to begin*



5 Gp for the first retrained feat. Increase cost at every feat retraining


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

jensun said:
			
		

> Except that you have no idea how they are actually implemented so any whining is completely premature.
> 
> *notes the reference to retraining feats*
> 
> *waits for the inevitable 4e is becoming a MMORPG with its respeccing whine to begin*



4E is so video-gamey. I heard there will eventually be made a game that will allow you to change your ability/skill/talent/power selections as you level! I am really sure there will be! And 4E is exactly like that!!!


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> 4E is so video-gamey. I heard there will eventually be made a game that will allow you to change your ability/skill/talent/power selections as you level! I am really sure there will be! And 4E is exactly like that!!!



That sounds like too much fun to me. I don't think I can take it.


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## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Seems like all the "problem spells" are still in the game so prepare for lots of whining from people who had their plots ruined by rituals....



But Derren, I thought you were complaining that all the problem spells had been taken out?

Ah, yes, it's Wednesday!


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## AZRogue (Apr 16, 2008)

I thought for sure someone would comment on how many times they said "superheroics" already. It must be too early.


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## FireLance (Apr 16, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> But Derren, I thought you were complaining that all the problem spells had been taken out?



Hong, too much thinking about fantasy messageboard posts is bad.


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

AZRogue said:
			
		

> I thought for sure someone would comment on how many times they said "superheroics" already. It must be too early.



 That's for Thursday.


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## vagabundo (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Seems like all the "problem spells" are still in the game so prepare for lots of whining from people who had their plots ruined by rituals....






I like rituals. 

I mean, I really like RITUALS.

I REALLY REALLY LIKE RITUALS...

The make much more sense to me and if they are anything like incantations from PHB2(??) they will be easier to manage.


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## FireLance (Apr 16, 2008)

AZRogue said:
			
		

> I thought for sure someone would comment on how many times they said "superheroics" already. It must be too early.



Someone else would just point out that 8th-level fighters were already called superheroes in Basic D&D and 1e AD&D. Then again, the seas of darkness between the points of light on the internet are mostly made up of pointless (and lightless ) arguments.


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## ShockMeSane (Apr 16, 2008)

There will always be spells that are a problem for a certain Campaign/DM/Playergroup. No edition of D&D will ever solve this.

And smart DM's will do what they have always done, which is castrate/remove problem spells which adversely effect the gameplay of their campaign. I'm really not even sure why this is such an ongoing discussion on this forum. There are such a plethora of ways to deal with the issue from the mechanical (What? Your teleport didn't work? I guess the area you attempted to Scry was under a powerful illusion or enchantment), the diplomatic (listen buddy, its a deal breaker for me to DM for you if you are going to constantly try to find ways to abuse my campaign, so we're going to pretend X spell isn't castable if you want to keep gaming with us), or the downright nasty jerk (oh, your attempt to summon the Dark God through your Gate was scrambled by the mighty "Artifact of X", and your Wizard is disintegrated. If there was anyone in the world who could cast Wish, we could maybe get him back but I'm afraid there isn't, go over to the corner and re-roll).

I've never had anyone leave one of my campaigns over my removal  or "nerfing" of a spell I didn't like from a DM'ing perspective, but even if I had, it would have been a small loss. Or really, some kind of gain.

Sure there are groups of players/DMs who love Teleport Without Error/Scry/Gate/Wish etc etc, and more power to 'em. I'm just saying, if you are offended by any particular spell, it's about a one minute long discussion with your group about how it will effect the enjoyment of the campaign to remove it.


----------



## vagabundo (Apr 16, 2008)

AZRogue said:
			
		

> You're probably right, but unless the new powers are clearly built off of the older ones (like natural progressions of the same ability) then I think "forgetting" an old ability when you get a new one is too much of a disconnect for me. It's like a bad Reese's peanut buttercups commerical--they got their Vancian in my martial combat abilities. And they don't taste great together.




I dont have much of a problem with "forgetting" a power, I see it more as your not keeping it sharp and your focusing your training on other, more powerful abilities. 

In my martial art days, "forgetting" would happen to me in competitive sparring. My techniques would slowly change over the course of my time in MA. I would get rusty at some things I could have landed easily years before. I wouldn't use them any more in competitive sparring and I would focus on a subset of techniques I had trained hard in. There is only a certain amount of training time you have and to keep sharp you have to focus, even the masters, while they know and can teach hundreds of techniques, would keep to a small subset when threatened.

In a life or death situation you would even be more conservative.

IMO 4e enhances your _fighting style_, more so than 3e, due to this power selection. PCs of the same class can seem quite different.


----------



## Arkenos (Apr 16, 2008)

Hp comparison at 20th level :

3e average 20th lvl Fighter with 21 constitution :
10 + 19D10 + 100 hp = *215 * hp on average. (120 - 300 variance)

4e average 20th lvl Fighter with 21 constitution :
6*20 + 9 + 21 = *150 * hp (no variance)

--

3e average 20th lvl Cleric with 19 constitution :
8 + 19d8 + 80 = *174 * hp on average (100- 240 variance)

4e average 20th lvl Cleric with 19 constitution :
5*20 + 7 + 19 = *126 * hp on average (no variance)

--

3e average 20th lvl Rogue with 17 constitution :
6 + 19d6 + 60 = *133* hp on average (80 - 180 variance)

4e average 20th lvl Rogue with 17 constitution :
5*20 + 7 + 19 = *126 * hp on average (no variance)

-- 

3e average 20th lvl Wizard with 15 constitution :
4 + 19d4 + 40 = *92* hp on average. (60 - 120 variance)

4e average 20th lvl Wizard with 15 constitution :
4*20 + 6 + 15 = *101* hp (no variance)

--

Using these average values, fighters and clerics get much less hp at high level than in 3e, rogues get about the same and wizards slightly more.
In 3e the hp difference between wizard/fighter is 92 vs 215
In 4e the hp difference between wizrad/fighter is 101 vs 150

However, healing surges are not taken into account here and are likely to be a big deal on overall combat endurance, so actual hp number comparison is to be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

vagabundo said:
			
		

> I like rituals.
> 
> I mean, I really like RITUALS.
> 
> ...



Unearthed Arcana, IIRC. And Urban Arcana (d20 Modern). 
I liked the idea, but the execution didn't seem too work that well. Using skills in 3E D&D (and d20 modern) for tasks that should be limited by levels - like spellcasting - is next to impossible.


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Seems like all the "problem spells" are still in the game so prepare for lots of whining from people who had their plots ruined by rituals....




So in 3.5 several spells are problematic. In 4e, they still exist, *at least in name* (please notice that a spell like Mirror Image has changed considerably, while retaining it's name), but most are now rituals (which we don't know how work), and yet, you still "conclude" that they will ruin plots.


You must simply be too brilliant for me, because I really can't say, how you can pass that off (with a straight face) as  logic, even though we are on an interweb message-board.


----------



## med stud (Apr 16, 2008)

Since the things I had in mind have already been said...

I absolutely LOVE that the anabola is out of the arts! Looking at the woman with the hammer in the picture, she has large arms, but there is no spandex- clothing revealing ripped biceps! I had a large problem with that in the 3e art, that almost all male specimens of the humanoid kind had body builder muscles. If the art will look like that in the future, I'll be happy as a clam!


----------



## ForbidenMaster (Apr 16, 2008)

Arkenos said:
			
		

> [...]
> 
> Using these average values, fighters and clerics get much less hp at high level than in 3e, rogues get about the same and wizards slightly more.
> In 3e the hp difference between wizard/fighter is 90 vs 210
> ...




Given that healing surges heal 1/4 of a characters HP ~6+Con modifier times per day, healing surges are definitely a big deal.

A level 20 fighter will actually have 512 total HP in a day (including all healing surges, and assuming a total amount of 6+con modifier healing surges just like the rouge).  A level 20 wizard will actually have 308 total HP in one day, and even then thats still assuming that the wizard with have the same number of healing surges as a fighter (which as per the DDXP characters is not true).  From the DDXP characters it seems like the wizard, like the rogue, gets 6+con mod healing surges, but the fighter gets 9+con mod.  So the fighter could still heal for an additional 111 HP bringing him up to 623 total HP for an entire day.

The difference between the fighter and the wizard is still significant in terms of HP, you just have to account for all factors.


----------



## Derren (Apr 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> So in 3.5 several spells are problematic. In 4e, they still exist, *at least in name* (please notice that a spell like Mirror Image has changed considerably, while retaining it's name), but most are now rituals (which we don't know how work), and yet, you still "conclude" that they will ruin plots.
> .




We know from this preview that there is a divination like ritual "Divination rituals such as Consult Oracle grant access to knowledge they might otherwise not have" and "include more and better kinds of divination, including the ability to spy on distant beings with Observe Creature". Also teleportation is also in "Epic characters can use True Portal to transport themselves instantly anywhere in the world"

Also I never thought that those spells were problematic. its the other people who constantly whined that spells like those ruin their (imo poorly thought out) plot.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

ShockMeSane said:
			
		

> There will always be spells that are a problem for a certain Campaign/DM/Playergroup. No edition of D&D will ever solve this.
> 
> And smart DM's will do what they have always done, which is castrate/remove problem spells which adversely effect the gameplay of their campaign. I'm really not even sure why this is such an ongoing discussion on this forum. There are such a plethora of ways to deal with the issue from the mechanical (What? Your teleport didn't work? I guess the area you attempted to Scry was under a powerful illusion or enchantment), the diplomatic (listen buddy, its a deal breaker for me to DM for you if you are going to constantly try to find ways to abuse my campaign, so we're going to pretend X spell isn't castable if you want to keep gaming with us), or the downright nasty jerk (oh, your attempt to summon the Dark God through your Gate was scrambled by the mighty "Artifact of X", and your Wizard is disintegrated. If there was anyone in the world who could cast Wish, we could maybe get him back but I'm afraid there isn't, go over to the corner and re-roll).
> 
> ...



I think the 4E tier system is a nice approach to this issue. The "game-breaker" spells still exist, but they belong to a clearly defined tier. If you don't like them, don't go there. 

I dislike nerfing spells or even banning them. Published adventurers might assume I have them. (If they don't anticipate their (ab)use, bad for the writer). My players might have wanted to use them. They also might have effects I like. It's too arbitrary.
If I know that I can find certain spells only at certain tiers, it's a lot easier to work with them. Either I consciously change the way the adventures work (like implied in the excerpts), or I avoid these tiers in the first place. 

In a way, this was possible in 3E, but the levels range of "game-breaker" or "tier-changing" spells wasn't clearly defined (and in some cases, I'd say they also came to early.) 
It also wasn't guaranteed that anyone had them, so either you accounted for them and made the scenario impossible (at least very difficult) without them, or you did not, and make the scenario to easy (and possibly boring) with them. 
For any individual group, you usually might have been able to work this out, but for adventures from other sources, this wasn't so easy.

As an example: 
Fly is available at 5th (character) level, scry at 7th, teleport at 9th. All 3 spells notably change adventure design. With fly, certain kind of obstacles can be totally avoided, even if used in combat. With fly, the obstacle is a "resource drain", without it, it might be unsurmountable. Scry allows you to spy on people you haven't met yet. You could use Scry as a prerequisite for advancing the storyline, but if the PCs don't have it, they have to jump through hoops to get the info. Or you didn't take it into account, and a whole subplot of your adventure can be scrapped. Teleport allows a party to reach a distant location very quickly. The spell could be the only mean to reach the evil cultists in time to stop their ritual. Or it breaks your whole overland-travel part where the PCs would have found allies, foes and information to further the plot. 

Every element that can be foiled by magic must be used before that point. This gives you sometimes a a very short level frame where you can use this elements. Every element that requires a certain type of magic could also be an element that doesn't work for your particular party at hand. In the end, you have a lot of elements that might no longer work, or don't work with your specific party. 

With the explicit tier denominations, you don't run into so many problems. At the Heroic tier, you can count on every overland-travel and bounty hunting investigation to work. At Paragon Level, you can use half a mile wide chasms, and have the PCs attack two cultist bases spread over half the continent in two days to stop their World-Ending Ritual.


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 16, 2008)

med stud said:
			
		

> Since the things I had in mind have already been said...
> 
> I absolutely LOVE that the anabola is out of the arts! Looking at the woman with the hammer in the picture, she has large arms, but there is no spandex- clothing revealing ripped biceps! I had a large problem with that in the 3e art, that almost all male specimens of the humanoid kind had body builder muscles. If the art will look like that in the future, I'll be happy as a clam!




Also I really like the look of the White Dragon.  It honestly looks frightening.


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> Also I never thought that those spells were problematic.




Yes, I noticed. It's Wednesday.


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> That's for Thursday.



And this is everyday.


----------



## mach1.9pants (Apr 16, 2008)

I think this bit: 







> (You can also use the NPC Ability Scores table on page 187 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.)



 is a good indication that we will be seeing opponents statted  with PC classes as well as using monster design stats. 

Oh, and the article is all kinds of awesome. Bring on the holy day!


----------



## ShockMeSane (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> I think the 4E tier system is a nice approach to this issue. The "game-breaker" spells still exist, but they belong to a clearly defined tier. If you don't like them, don't go there.
> 
> I dislike nerfing spells or even banning them. Published adventurers might assume I have them. (If they don't anticipate their (ab)use, bad for the writer). My players might have wanted to use them. They also might have effects I like. It's too arbitrary.
> If I know that I can find certain spells only at certain tiers, it's a lot easier to work with them. Either I consciously change the way the adventures work (like implied in the excerpts), or I avoid these tiers in the first place.
> ...




Oh, you and I are both in agreement that 4th editions "Tiering" of the movement abilities, rather than as you said having them arrive at roughly 5th level in previous editions, is a vast improvement. I think it definitely allows some nice options for running a campaign only in the Heroic/Paragon/Epic tier for players that want a certain feel for the duration of their campaign.

I only ever create my own campaigns when I DM (and don't use established settings like FR, etc for them either) so perhaps I am in the minority. I don't say that to cast any kind of judgement, merely to emphasize that for my group, tailoring certain spells to a campaign has always been a pretty easy task for me. Really, I imagine that with spells like Flight/Teleport coming so much later in 4E, the only real workarounds I can foresee taking advantage of are things like anti-teleportation glyphs protecting the keeps of powerful villains, etc etc, which I've pretty much always done anyways as murdering the BBEG in their bathtub is fairly anticlimatic.

Overall I'm quite excited, and I wish the next update was from the Rituals section


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

E11 is the new E6!


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> We know from this preview that there is a divination like ritual "Divination rituals such as Consult Oracle grant access to knowledge they might otherwise not have" and "include more and better kinds of divination, including the ability to spy on distant beings with Observe Creature". Also teleportation is also in "Epic characters can use True Portal to transport themselves instantly anywhere in the world"




I agree that there will be whining about these rituals and/or spells. Wherever it will be justified is another matter all-together.

The mere presence of similar spells will not automatically cause these problems. There are plenty of fixes to spells like scry, teleport and the like, even in 3.5. If made with some thought, there is no reasons why it shouldn't be possible to have them not be a problem for a large number of players. *Some* will always complain though, but that is after all the way of life.

Cheers


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Add in two "at will" powers chosen at character creation and not changed later!
> 
> Cheers!




So, there's no higher level 'at will' powers? I missed that. Presumably, the 1st level ones automatically scale?


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> So, there's no higher level 'at will' powers? I missed that. Presumably, the 1st level ones automatically scale?




Seems like it, yes.


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> So, there's no higher level 'at will' powers? I missed that. Presumably, the 1st level ones automatically scale?



They upgrade at the 21st level.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> So, there's no higher level 'at will' powers? I missed that. Presumably, the 1st level ones automatically scale?



It appears as if they improve at 21st level. I think I saw an example of this in a previous preview/scoop, and the description of starting higher level PCs mentions "don't forget to increase damage at 21st level", too.


----------



## Njall (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> We know from this preview that there is a divination like ritual "Divination rituals such as Consult Oracle grant access to knowledge they might otherwise not have" and "include more and better kinds of divination, including the ability to spy on distant beings with Observe Creature". Also teleportation is also in "Epic characters can use True Portal to transport themselves instantly anywhere in the world"
> 
> Also I never thought that those spells were problematic. its the other people who constantly whined that spells like those ruin their (imo poorly thought out) plot.




The problem, here, is that you don't really know what the cost for these rituals is.
It may be that they're not worth the trouble most times, so while they'd be available, people could use them but not abuse them ( and it was often the case in 3e ). 
Furthermore, if the PCs can use those spells but do not need to rely on them it makes a huge difference, IMO.


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

The_Fan said:
			
		

> Seems like all you get for level 30 is a gold watch, a handshake, and a pension, courtesy of your epic destiny.




You can always grind AA until they raise the level cap. 

Seriously, I would be VERY surprised if there isn't a 'divine' or 'immortal' tier planned for PHB 2, or PHB 3 at the latest. One of the points of fixing "the math" was to make the game playable across all levels, and the high level monsters we've seen have roughly the same number of combat options as the low level ones.


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

> 6. Choose Powers. You know two at-will powers from your class; remember to increase damage if your level is 21st or higher.




I find it slightly odd that at-will powers don't scale at 11th level as well. 2d4+int seems a tad useless, at higher levels. /shrug


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Seriously, I would be VERY surprised if there isn't a 'divine' or 'immortal' tier planned for PHB 2, or PHB 3 at the latest. One of the points of fixing "the math" was to make the game playable across all levels, and the high level monsters we've seen have roughly the same number of combat options as the low level ones.




"Fixing the math" means playable across all levels as presented in the given framework. It does not imply infinite level progression.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> Seems like it, yes.





			
				ainatan said:
			
		

> They upgrade at the 21st level.





			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> It appears as if they improve at 21st level. I think I saw an example of this in a previous preview/scoop, and the description of starting higher level PCs mentions "don't forget to increase damage at 21st level", too.




Okay, we're all a bit trigger-happy, here, eh?  

Ask, and you shall be answered...


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> You can always grind AA until they raise the level cap.
> 
> Seriously, I would be VERY surprised if there isn't a 'divine' or 'immortal' tier planned for PHB 2, or PHB 3 at the latest. One of the points of fixing "the math" was to make the game playable across all levels, and the high level monsters we've seen have roughly the same number of combat options as the low level ones.




As gods are level 37 solo monsters (apparently) I don't think this will be the case.

Besides, what would be the BBEG at level 40?........


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> You can always grind AA until they raise the level cap.




*cringes violently* at the deja-vu..


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> I find it slightly odd that at-will powers don't scale at 11th level as well. 2d4+int seems a tad useless, at higher levels. /shrug



Maybe the ability increases to your "At-Will-Attack-Ability" can compete with HP and other damage increases till then. (Oh, and don't forget the bonus from weapons and implements)


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Okay, we're all a bit trigger-happy, here, eh?




Wife keeps telling me that, I guess she might be right after all...


----------



## Imban (Apr 16, 2008)

jensun said:
			
		

> Except that you have no idea how they are actually implemented so any whining is completely premature.
> 
> *notes the reference to retraining feats*
> 
> *waits for the inevitable 4e is becoming a MMORPG with its respeccing whine to begin*




Retraining a feat at every level is fine by me, because it lets people need to plan ahead less when they're playing their characters in D&D.

But that's about all I want them to add along those lines, since the problem with applying the respeccing in some MMORPGs to P&P play is that, broadly speaking, easy and liberal respeccing makes every character the same. The difference between a sword-and-board fighter and a 2H hammer fighter is just a matter of going to town and switching some points around. Especially in a P&P game where I'm probably also not differentiated by the level I've grinded to and the high-end boss gear I have, making all members of a given class interchangable is kind of lame.


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Maybe the ability increases to your "At-Will-Attack-Ability" can compete with HP and other damage increases till then. (Oh, and don't forget the bonus from weapons and implements)




It's possible. I thought about it, but since most things follow a fairly linear progression, why would it need scale at 21st but not at 11th. I guess that if it scales a bit on the low side (on  purpose), in order not to make it too powerful, it will be so far off at 21st, that a scaling is needed.

Ah well, not something I am worried about, merely trying to find excuses to up my post-count.
(Hong, I am coming for you!)


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

Gargazon said:
			
		

> As gods are level 37 solo monsters (apparently) I don't think this will be the case.
> 
> Besides, what would be the BBEG at level 40?........



Well, if they wanted to, they could certainly find something.

But I don't think they will focus much onto it. 3E had epic levels, and how much supplemental material did exist for that? How many epic adventures where published? It might also be notable that the 3.0 Epic Level handbook was integrated in the 3.5 DMG. Maybe they determined the market is just not big enough, and introduced it as a small boon for the few that like it, as a motivation to go 3.5...

WoW and D&D have one important difference - WoW needs only a handful of "Storytellers" to create higher level challenges that all players will be able to use. 
D&D needs one at every table...


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

Gargazon said:
			
		

> As gods are level 37 solo monsters (apparently) I don't think this will be the case.
> 
> Besides, what would be the BBEG at level 40?........




Antimatter dragons.
Cthulhu, and his big brother.
Pantheons as encounters. ("We need 2 greater gods, 2 lesser gods, and 4 demigod minions.")
Unicron.


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

WOTC said:
			
		

> On the other hand, monsters at the paragon tier have more ways to thwart these new capabilities, including their own flight, damage resistance, and blindsight.




Does this mean there are no heroic-tier flying monsters?


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> It appears as if they improve at 21st level. I think I saw an example of this in a previous preview/scoop, and the description of starting higher level PCs mentions "don't forget to increase damage at 21st level", too.



*Deft Strike*
Rogue Attack 1
A final lunge brings you into an advantageous position.

*At-Will [ ] Martial, Weapon*
*Standard Action*
*Melee* or *Ranged* weapon
*Requirement*: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling.
*Target*: One creature
*Special*: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
*Attack*: Dexterity vs. AC

*Hit*: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.


----------



## Pistonrager (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Antimatter dragons.
> Cthulhu, and his big brother.
> Pantheons as encounters. ("We need 2 greater gods, 2 lesser gods, and 4 demigod minions.")
> Unicron.





I can see it now.... a knockdown drag out fight between the Norse Pantheon and the Chinese pantheon.  Should be interesting to see if the Chinese pantheon knows about Baulders weakness....


----------



## Mr Jack (Apr 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> Seems like it, yes.




Not to me, it doesn't. The article states that it assumes you will upgrade your powers to higher level ones. It looks to me like you get new powers at higher levels but they take slots you already have. So you get new at will powers; but not more powers available to you at one time.


----------



## srn (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Does this mean there are no heroic-tier flying monsters?




Just from some DDM cards I have lying around, the following all fly:

Shadowhunter Bat - 3rd level
Griffon - 7th level
Gargoyle - 9th level

I think it means no overland flight, only short-term flight, and even that will be limited.

I think it also means no flying monsters with ranged attacks who can stay out of the PC's range.


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Mr Jack said:
			
		

> Not to me, it doesn't. The article states that it assumes you will upgrade your powers to higher level ones. It looks to me like you get new powers at higher levels but they take slots you already have. So you get new at will powers; but not more powers available to you at one time.




Notice in bold below. I think I am right.



			
				4e PHB said:
			
		

> You know two at-will powers from your class; remember to increase damage if your level is 21st or higher. The Powers by Class Level table summarizes the number and levels of powers you have *in the other categories*. These totals are not cumulative. The table assumes that you replace your lowest-level powers with those at higher levels, but you can keep lower-level ones if you wish.


----------



## Hellzon (Apr 16, 2008)

Noone caught this?


> For magic items, choose one item of your level +1, one item of your level, and one item of your level –1. In addition, you have gold pieces equal to the value of one magic item of your level –1. *You can spend this money on rituals*, potions, or other magic items, or save it for later.



So rituals cost money (probably concealed as "material components"). Might not be universal, but it could keep adventuring parties from solving everything with _Overland Flight_.

EDIT:


> *4. Choose Skills.* Make sure you meet skill prerequisites for a paragon path or epic destiny, if applicable.



Groan. I hope those prerequisites are a lot looser than Prestige class prerequisites in 3.x.
Like: "Prince of Knaves: Be trained in one of Thievery, Acrobatics or Bluff."


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> Seems like it, yes.





			
				Lizard said:
			
		

> So, there's no higher level 'at will' powers? I missed that. Presumably, the 1st level ones automatically scale?



I think there ARE higher level At-Will powers because all At-Will powers we've seen so far have a Level in their description, such as "Magic Missile   Wizard Attack *1*"


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> I think there ARE higher level At-Will powers because all At-Will powers we've seen so far have a Level in their description, such as "Magic Missile   Wizard Attack *1*"




As opposed to Magic Missile Wizard Attack 21? Wouldn't it make more sense, that if you get new At-will-powers, that they were included in the table we have dissected all morning?


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 16, 2008)

Hellzon said:
			
		

> Noone caught this?
> 
> So rituals cost money (probably concealed as "material components"). Might not be universal, but it could keep adventuring parties from solving everything with _Overland Flight_.
> 
> ...




Well, atleast it's only skills. There's nothing there about requiring feats, and as all skills are likely to be useful at some point in an adventure, I see absolutely no problem.

Atleast now you don't have to go to the continent of X and train with the Y, lick a goat, then complete challenge Z by yourself to get into a prestige class paragon path


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> As opposed to Magic Missile Wizard Attack 21? Wouldn't it make more sense, that if you get new At-will-powers, that they were included in the table we have dissected all morning?



Maybe yes, maybe no. But if all At-Will powers are level 1, and all of them deal more damage at level 21, there is really no reason to assign level to them.


----------



## phil500 (Apr 16, 2008)

I dont understand the table.  can someone explain what this, for example, means?

12th: P, 7, 3, 1       (space)         9, 5, 1    (space) P, 10, 6, 2


----------



## DeusExMachina (Apr 16, 2008)

P stands for Paragon, as in that you get a paragon power at that level. The others stand for the level of a power you have at that level.

So if the encounter column says: P, 7, 3, 1 this means you have 1 paragon power, 1 power of level 7 or lower, 1 power of level 3 or lower and one of level 1.
Later on it says  P, 13, 7, 3 which means the level 1 power has been replaced with one up to level 13...


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

phil500 said:
			
		

> I dont understand the table.  can someone explain what this, for example, means?
> 
> 12th: P, 7, 3, 1    (space)         9, 5, 1    (space) P, 10, 6, 2




At 12th level the character has a Paragon power, a 7th, 3rd and 1st level powers.


----------



## vagabundo (Apr 16, 2008)

med stud said:
			
		

> Since the things I had in mind have already been said...
> 
> I absolutely LOVE that the anabola is out of the arts! Looking at the woman with the hammer in the picture, she has large arms, but there is no spandex- clothing revealing ripped biceps! I had a large problem with that in the 3e art, that almost all male specimens of the humanoid kind had body builder muscles. If the art will look like that in the future, I'll be happy as a clam!





That was a woman!?!

<looks closer> oh yeah metal boobies....


----------



## Derren (Apr 16, 2008)

phil500 said:
			
		

> I dont understand the table.  can someone explain what this, for example, means?
> 
> 12th: P, 7, 3, 1       (space)         9, 5, 1    (space) P, 10, 6, 2




I guess it means that at level 12 you have:

A Paragon specific encounter power, a 7th level encounter power, and a 3rd level encounter power. The same applies to dailies ( 9th, 5th and 1st level one) and utility powers (paragon specific, 10th, 6th amd 2nd level)


----------



## ShockMeSane (Apr 16, 2008)

Heh, nevermind, plenty of people said it first.


----------



## Derren (Apr 16, 2008)

What I just noticed. Rituals cost money.
So it looks like there will be no progression of rituals but that you can cast whatever ritual you can buy (maybe with a level limit).


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> What I just noticed. Rituals cost money.
> So it looks like there will be no progression of rituals but that you can cast whatever ritual you can buy (maybe with a level limit).




How do you equate cost of a ritual with no progression? Are they mutually exclusive?


----------



## DeusExMachina (Apr 16, 2008)

This list of power progression just makes me want to know all the more what all the exact powers there are going to be...


Also that dragon has an underbite of epic proportions...


----------



## Steely Dan (Apr 16, 2008)

I'm also wondering if you can increase more than one score (ala _Saga_).


----------



## Derren (Apr 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> How do you equate cost of a ritual with no progression? Are they mutually exclusive?




That rituals are listed in the "money&magic items" section and not in the "progression" part is in my opinion a strong hint for that.



			
				DeusExMachina said:
			
		

> Also that dragon has an underbite of epic proportions...




Not only that. Its arms look as if the dragon is a humanoid/biped and does not walk on all four.


----------



## FabioMilitoPagliara (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> What I just noticed. Rituals cost money.
> So it looks like there will be no progression of rituals but that you can cast whatever ritual you can buy (maybe with a level limit).




well, they said in one of the developer blog that ritual must first be learned, then it's implied in this article that there is some sort of level limit (Ritual 1, Ritual 3, Ritual 8 and so on)



> However, toward the upper end of the tier, even death is a surmountable obstacle because of the Raise Dead ritual.




I would expect the Raise Dead as a Ritual 8 or something between 7 and 9

and then it cost money (or maybe material components, better yet)


----------



## ShockMeSane (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> What I just noticed. Rituals cost money.
> So it looks like there will be no progression of rituals but that you can cast whatever ritual you can buy (maybe with a level limit).




This is entirely speculation, but based on the fact that the "building a higher level character" portion of the article does not mention Rituals at all I would say that there are a few ways this could go:

1) You know every ritual up to your level automatically. We know that rituals have level restrictions because we have been told that Raise Dead is a ritual that becomes available towards the end of Heroic.

These rituals cost money to cast. In this scenario, I would venture to guess that it is 99% likely that this money will be in the form of material components, as it is stretching the boundaries of disbelief to their breaking point to just have 7,983g dissappear from your loot stash when you cast Raise dead.

2) You can purchase Rituals when you reach the appropriate level. They could function like old edition scrolls (but non-transcribable), and are 1-shots that you must re-buy or stock up on to make multiple use of.

3) You can transcribe the knowledge of a Ritual permanently, assuming you meet the level requirements. They can either be bought or found in spellbooks, scrolls etc, possibly even researched by the PC. Then either:
3a) Pay gold (assumably less than the cost of option 1) in the form of components to cast.
3b) Cast for free.

4) Rituals were purposefully left out of the information we were given because Wizards is not ready to talk about them yet. Seeing as the books have gone to the printers, I find this an unlikely option, but I will admit to it being possible. This scenario would be close to option #1, except that you would choose Rituals that were within your level range at designated intervals, rather than automatically know them all. This would actually be the closest to older editions that we've seen from the magic system.

Seeing as the only concrete information we have is that A) Rituals cost money and B) Rituals have a level requirement, it really could be any of those, although I'm doubting the likeliness of option #4 for the aforementioned reason. 

Personally, I am learning towards option #3. I'd be interested to hear anyone elses guesses.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> How do you equate cost of a ritual with no progression? Are they mutually exclusive?



Yes. Didn't you read the article Derren is referring to with this information? Oh, wait...

It appears to me that you need to be very careful what you say or neglect to say, since everything you say can and will be used against you in court in message board discussions.


----------



## tecnowraith (Apr 16, 2008)

I did not see this mentioned but here is a thought. What about Multiclassing that you can gain additional at-will powers?


----------



## vagabundo (Apr 16, 2008)

tecnowraith said:
			
		

> I did not see this mentioned but here is a thought. What about Multiclassing that you can gain additional at-will powers?




We officially know nothing about multiclassing, except that it is different from 3e.


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

ShockMeSane said:
			
		

> 4) Rituals were purposefully left out of the information we were given because Wizards is not ready to talk about them yet. Seeing as the books have gone to the printers, I find this an unlikely option, but I will admit to it being possible.



This I can't understand.
Why can't WOTC show us a sample ritual. Just a little ritual. Half a ritual. Anything!


----------



## ShockMeSane (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> This I can't understand.
> Why can't WOTC show us a sample ritual. Just a little ritual. Half a ritual. Anything!




Your guess is as good as mine, and it's pretty frustrating isn't it?


----------



## Cirex (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> This I can't understand.
> Why can't WOTC show us a sample ritual. Just a little ritual. Half a ritual. Anything!




I think we need to cast the ritual "Reveal more information about rituals". Sadly, we don't know how to cast it.


----------



## Khaalis (Apr 16, 2008)

ShockMeSane said:
			
		

> Personally, I am learning towards option #3. I'd be interested to hear anyone elses guesses.



Aye. My money is on #3 with 3A. I am betting that rituals will have to be acquired by purchase or as treasure (or as the product of a "research" quest - however the DM wants to handle it). Rituals will have a minimum level requirement, and they will not be cheap or easy to use even once learned, with "expense" being relevant to the level the ritual is intended for (i.e. Raise Dead might be expensive when its first learned but considered chap by a level 29).


----------



## Scholar & Brutalman (Apr 16, 2008)

ShockMeSane said:
			
		

> 3) You can transcribe the knowledge of a Ritual permanently, assuming you meet the level requirements. They can either be bought or found in spellbooks, scrolls etc, possibly even researched by the PC. Then either:
> 3a) Pay gold (assumably less than the cost of option 1) in the form of components to cast.
> 3b) Cast for free.




I recall a comment from one of the developers on Gleemax that he'd like his playtest character to "learn more rituals", with the implication that learning more wasn't limited by level progression. It sounded a lot like your option 3.

I'd like to provide a link, but unfortunately it _was_ on Gleemax, so it's pretty much gone...


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> That rituals are listed in the "money&magic items" section and not in the "progression" part is in my opinion a strong hint for that.




So let me get this right. You are saying that a 1st level wizard with enough money could learn "True Portal" and cast it at any time, assuming he had enough money?


----------



## Mirtek (Apr 16, 2008)

Cirex said:
			
		

> I think we need to cast the ritual "Reveal more information about rituals". Sadly, we don't know how to cast it.



Isn't that the ritual you were supposed to be able to learn for $5,000?


----------



## Derren (Apr 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> So let me get this right. You are saying that a 1st level wizard with enough money could learn "True Portal" and cast it at any time, assuming he had enough money?




So thats what you make out of "maybe with level limit" from my first post?


----------



## med stud (Apr 16, 2008)

vagabundo said:
			
		

> That was a woman!?!
> 
> <looks closer> oh yeah metal boobies....



I think it's a dwarf woman. But now that you mention it, it's very nice that female warriors look like _warriors_ and not pin-up models. Nothing wrong with those, but in this day and age of internet* I don't think it's too much to ask to keep the softcore and RPG illustrations apart.

*That is, frustrated gentlemen can get what they want through internet instead of D&D illustrations.


----------



## Voss (Apr 16, 2008)

After a rather slow start, this article turned interesting.  I found the blurbs on the tiers to be less than inspiring.  (Yay, molest furry woodland creatures in the heroic tier.  I always feel sorry for wolves).

But the crunch at the end made it worth it.  Glad there aren't an absurd number of encounter powers- game balance would have been an issue if you quickly reached a point where per encounter powers = expected rounds of combat.  You'd never need at will powers.

I want to see more on the recharge/regain mechanics hinted at however.  Those strike me as a major power boost in the upper levels..

I am a little surprised that the class model is based on the sorcerer (limited powers known, swap out as you level), since he's still a johnny-come-lately across the history of the game.  I think it works, however, since everyone is more or less on this model.

I don't think I like the hint that paragon paths are required, though.

Items for new, high level characters seem to work, though I wonder how that compares to what you're expected to gain as you level.


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> So thats what you make out of "maybe with level limit" from my first post?




Okay, you have a point, forgot about that parenthesis) let me re-phrase.

So let me get this right. You are saying that a 1st level cleric with enough money could learn "Raise Dead" and cast it at any time, assuming he had enough money?

1st level character is heroic tier, and so does Raise Dead seem to be (let's just assume for this argument's sake). If you add more constrained level limits, wouldn't that sort of be like, I don't know, a progression?


----------



## DeusExMachina (Apr 16, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> I am a little surprised that the class model is based on the sorcerer (limited powers known, swap out as you level), since he's still a johnny-come-lately across the history of the game.  I think it works, however, since everyone is more or less on this model.




Not completely though, because the wizard still picks some spells from his spell book selection that is larger than the amount he can cast per day...


----------



## neceros (Apr 16, 2008)

I think rituals will come as feats or class selections.

I like the way powers are done. I had hoped for more powers known, but I'll have to see how it plays out. The list looks similar to, say, a psion, and I do love me some psion.

The power list was also confusing. However, it seems that powers 'upgrade' every 4 levels, that's why they are written that way. Weird, but I can roll with it.

Hit points are just strange. Little bit more of a calculation than I had expected.


----------



## Derren (Apr 16, 2008)

With progression I mean things like class specific rituals and a limited amount of rituals known per level and from the wording of the excerpt this doesn't seems to be the case.
Another possibility is that this article only means that one can pay others to perform rituals and that this is no reference to player casted rituals at all.


----------



## DeusExMachina (Apr 16, 2008)

neceros said:
			
		

> The power list was also confusing. However, it seems that powers 'upgrade' every 4 levels, that's why they are written that way. Weird, but I can roll with it.




Every 4/6/4/6/etc. levels actually, the way I read it...


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> With progression I mean things like class specific rituals and a limited amount of rituals known per level and from the wording of the excerpt this doesn't seems to be the case.
> Another possibility is that this article only means that one can pay others to perform rituals and that this is no reference to player casted rituals at all.




Ah. AFAIK, the number of rituals you can learn is not capped, much like the amount of spells you could have in your spell-book, in the earlier editions. Regarding class specific rituals, I don't think they will let any class but clerics cast Raise Dead, but who knows. So many dead cows already, although I am not sure I would like the taste of that one.


----------



## Derren (Apr 16, 2008)

neceros said:
			
		

> I think rituals will come as feats [...]




Thats also possible. The late 3.5 books like Dragon Magic did have such feats which allowed you to use a ritual on your party. Maybe those were early versions of 4E rituals?


----------



## KidSnide (Apr 16, 2008)

As far as rituals are concerned, everything that the designers have said on the matter makes it seem like rituals are things you buy after which you can use the rituals indefinitely.  (Not every time they want - maybe it's once per day or there is also a material cost per use.)  But learning rituals seems to work in much the same way that a 3E wizard can buy a scroll to put a spell in their spellbook.

This makes a ton of sense because whether you know a ritual like spider climb is effectively the same thing as having a rope of climbing.  Neither rituals nor wondrous items increase your combat power, they just provide additional out-of-combat options.  As such, it makes sense to treat them in a similar way -- they are both powers that you can get by adventuring or by purchasing them.

Also note that because rituals are out-of-combat powers, they are also the sort of powers that can break particular plots.  (Try a "you are lost" adventure when the PCs have Find the Path.)  Because they are powers that PCs find/purchase and not powers that they implicitly get as a part of their class, it is easier for GMs to remove particular "disruptive" abilities from their games.

...but, of course, this all mostly speculative.


----------



## D'karr (Apr 16, 2008)

DeusExMachina said:
			
		

> This list of power progression just makes me want to know all the more what all the exact powers there are going to be...
> 
> 
> Also that dragon has an underbite of epic proportions...




Have you seen the overbite of the Green Dragon.  Maybe if those two mated we'd get a turquoise dragon that needed no bracers.


----------



## Bayonet_Chris (Apr 16, 2008)

*Rituals*

I would almost hope that rituals would require some sort of side quest. Knowing the ritual and getting everything you need to use it would be two separate things. For example, yes - my cleric knows the Raise Dead ritual. It may require that I take a trip to the underworld to rescue my buddy and bring him back to his body though. It might require some rare component. Or both.

It's too early to speculate, obviously, but that would be more of a "cost" that would be inline with the heroic ideal.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> This I can't understand.
> Why can't WOTC show us a sample ritual. Just a little ritual. Half a ritual. Anything!



To torture us. 

In fact, there are no ritual rules. But you'll only learn this after reading the core rulebooks. And before you even begin reading the book, there will be a note:
"1st rule of Rituals: You don't talk about Rituals"
"2nd rule of Rituals: You don't talk about Rituals"
"3rd rule of Rituals: Breaking the rules of Rituals means loss of internet access and inability to speak for one month."
Once you open the book, you'll read this: 
"4th rule of Rituals: There are no rituals."

On a _less_ serious note, in danger of inspiring hope that might still get disappointed, maybe we'll see a Ritual in one of the next previews?

Didn't someoe mention that Scrolls work like Rituals? So, the spell book analogy seems to fit well. I wonder if the scrolls are fire & forget (a concept I hate! When Willow and Giles use scrolls and books to cast spells, they never disappear!), or whether you get to re-use them. (Off course, I am fine with the idea that you still need material components for such rituals)


----------



## nothing to see here (Apr 16, 2008)

*Repeated text*

I'm quite stoked about all of this.

Mind you I have one issue that, I'm trying to carefully phrase to avoid being stereotyped as the "every-critical, comic-book-guy" style geek.

BUT

Did anyone notice how much text is repeated verbtim between the PHB and DMG excepts.  Not a big thing on its own, I know -- but if this is more widespread, we might be seeing a little bit of page-padding.

Granted, it's really good text.  But we only need it once.


----------



## Vempyre (Apr 16, 2008)

I think that article gives us more about rituals than we think, by materializing them in our mind (even if it doesn't talk about the inner workings) and letting use visualize which spell in 3E could have been transformed into rituals and at what lvl they will be available in 4E.

Heroic : Raise the Dead
Paragon : Passwall, Shadowwalk, Consult Oracle, View Object
Epic: True Portal, Observe Creature


Oh and .. the ferocious tarrasque


----------



## Hellzon (Apr 16, 2008)

Vempyre said:
			
		

> Oh and .. the ferocious tarrasque



I'm more excited about the "balor demon". Seems it's still in as a top-tier demon.


----------



## Atlatl Jones (Apr 16, 2008)

vagabundo said:
			
		

> We officially know nothing about multiclassing, except that it is different from 3e.



There's a subtle hint in this article.  The powers chart is labeled "Powers by *Class* Level".  That implies that there's a difference between class level and total level, otherwise the chart would have probably said "Powers by Level"


----------



## Atlatl Jones (Apr 16, 2008)

Edit: double post.


----------



## KidSnide (Apr 16, 2008)

One other thing to note is that the levels at which you don't get powers are 4, 8, 14, 18, 21, 24, 28 and 30.  At levels 4, 8, 14, 18, 24 and 28, you get a stat bump and a feat.  Presumably, at 21 and 30, you get something cool from your epic destiny (much like you get powers from your paragon path at 11 and 20).  

So, at every level, even if you don't get a new power, you're still getting something cool.  (A design goal that was noted some time ago...)


----------



## Nine Hands (Apr 16, 2008)

dystmesis said:
			
		

> Easy. You get your con score to your HP and nothing else. You get no special bonus to any of your saves. You have no special powers or abilities except those granted by your race and possibly feats.
> 
> Skills might be the hard part.




One trained skill?


----------



## Belphanior (Apr 16, 2008)

KidSnide said:
			
		

> One other thing to note is that the levels at which you don't get powers are 4, 8, 14, 18, 21, 24, 28 and 30.  At levels 4, 8, 14, 18, 24 and 28, you get a stat bump and a feat.  Presumably, at 21 and 30, you get something cool from your epic destiny (much like you get powers from your paragon path at 11 and 20).
> 
> So, at every level, even if you don't get a new power, you're still getting something cool.  (A design goal that was noted some time ago...)




You also get a stat bump at levels 11 and 21.


----------



## D'karr (Apr 16, 2008)

nothing to see here said:
			
		

> Did anyone notice how much text is repeated verbtim between the PHB and DMG excepts.  Not a big thing on its own, I know -- but if this is more widespread, we might be seeing a little bit of page-padding.
> 
> Granted, it's really good text.  But we only need it once.




I noticed it but it didn't bother me as much.  I figured that by having it in the appropriate book in which I'm working, it saves me from having to refer back and forth between them.

For example, as a player I need to know what this new tier has in store for me, but as a DM I'm probably deep in the gears of how to develop adventures for each tier.  So I was a little surprised but not overly disappointed.


----------



## Steely Dan (Apr 16, 2008)

A total of 4 encounter powers at 30th level seems awfully low to me.


----------



## lightblade (Apr 16, 2008)

As a oounterpoint to the damage discussion: your damage does go up as you level; it's not just a big jump at Epic.  Most likely you will increase your main attribute when you level, so at 8th and 14th you'll have gotten an extra +1 to damage. Also, your magic weapon/implement/holy symbol will contribute to a damage increase throughout your career.


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

med stud said:
			
		

> *That is, frustrated gentlemen can get what they want through internet instead of D&D illustrations.




In my day, we got our porn from the Monster Manual, and we LIKED it!

(And Fineous Fingers had full frontal nudity...)


----------



## med stud (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> In my day, we got our porn from the Monster Manual, and we LIKED it!
> 
> (And Fineous Fingers had full frontal nudity...)



Well in MY day we walked uphill both ways to watch nude brown bears that tried to eat us, and we never complained!


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

Steely Dan said:
			
		

> A total of 4 encounter powers at 30th level seems awfully low to me.




Encounters are supposed to last the same number of rounds; why need more?

At least, I'm assuming that's the philosophy.

Also, if MIC is any clue, most 4e items will offer encounter powers -- probably as Minor actions, but enough that you'll be wearing most of your abilities.

(That's not a dig at MIC, BTW...it's been the source of most of the treasure in my current 3e game, and I like that style of item a lot, as it adds decision making to each round. More decisions==more fun! Most of my specific beefs w/4e can be traced down to 'fewer decisions that matter', so every place where it adds in decisions instead of taking them away, it gets a big 'plus'.)


----------



## DandD (Apr 16, 2008)

In my days, we have internet, and public commercials...


----------



## Cyronax (Apr 16, 2008)

Derren said:
			
		

> We know from this preview that there is a divination like ritual "Divination rituals such as Consult Oracle grant access to knowledge they might otherwise not have" and "include more and better kinds of divination, including the ability to spy on distant beings with Observe Creature". Also teleportation is also in "Epic characters can use True Portal to transport themselves instantly anywhere in the world"
> 
> Also I never thought that those spells were problematic. its the other people who constantly whined that spells like those ruin their (imo poorly thought out) plot.




Poorly thought out plots? Bad DMs? Is that all you equate the argument of 'problem spells' with? 

Even a plot that takes these sorts of spells into account might suffer from the fact that scry-buff-teleport tactics get boring and very anti-climatic after a while. I DM a largely character driven campaign (and do a LOT of on the spot improvisation because of this) and still keep those spells in the game, but I honestly don't enjoy this sort of fantasy (all) the time. So I glad that 4e will be more modular with respect to many aspects of its powers. 


C.I.D.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Apr 16, 2008)

med stud said:
			
		

> Well in MY day we walked uphill both ways to watch nude brown bears that tried to eat us, and we never complained!



In MY day we walked uphill both ways to watch brown bears eat nude volleyball players, and we liked it!


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

Bayonet_Chris said:
			
		

> I would almost hope that rituals would require some sort of side quest. Knowing the ritual and getting everything you need to use it would be two separate things. For example, yes - my cleric knows the Raise Dead ritual. It may require that I take a trip to the underworld to rescue my buddy and bring him back to his body though. It might require some rare component. Or both.
> 
> It's too early to speculate, obviously, but that would be more of a "cost" that would be inline with the heroic ideal.




Or it might require you say "OK, I'm using Raise Dead...someone hand me a pencil so I can mark down I used it for this session. And tell Bob to shut down the PlayStation, he's alive again."

(I mean, we're doing the 'trip to the underworld' shtick in our current 3e game to give the spell some flavor. Historically, ALL D&D magic has been bippity-boppity-boo, you're healed/raised/turned to stone/teleported to the moon. I wanted to use ritual magic from Atlas Game's excellent supplement instead of standard magic in my D20M game, and my potential players threw a huge hissy fit and almost walked out on me, and I relented, and I think the campaign, overall, was poorer for it. In general, magic in D&D is reliable, cheap, and easy. Now, it would be NICE if "rituals" were risky, expensive, and difficult, to the point where 'do we or don't we' is a major in-character debate...but I'm not counting on it. Not at all. Any DM can *make* them harder, trivially, but don't expect it to be the default.)


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> In my days, we have internet, and public commercials...



 Well, I know you can get pr0n on the Interweb, but on public commercials? Yow!


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

Vempyre said:
			
		

> I think that article gives us more about rituals than we think, by materializing them in our mind (even if it doesn't talk about the inner workings) and letting use visualize which spell in 3E could have been transformed into rituals and at what lvl they will be available in 4E.
> 
> Heroic : Raise the Dead
> Paragon : Passwall, Shadowwalk, Consult Oracle, View Object
> ...




It kind of bothers me that scrying is so high level, as it's usually a low-power Old Wise Woman trick. It's the sort of thing I'd expect to be a Heroic Tier ritual, so the Court Wizard or the Mysterious Gypsy Woman could have it. Then again, with "Exception based design", I suppose I could say "Gypsy Fortunetellers (6th level Elite Controller (Leader)) have the Scry ritual. You can't learn it until you're 20th level. Sucks to be you."

I think "Sucks to be you" is going to be my answer to a lot of player questions, if I ever run 4e...

(Please don't tell me about the obvious game balance reason. I know the game balance reason. It's another case where flavor and Classic Tropes have been ambushed by game balance, poisoned, stabbed, and flung into the icy river to drown, only to stagger out later and...oh wait, that's Rasputin. Where was I going with this?)


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Well, I know you can get pr0n on the Interweb, but on public commercials? Yow!




See what you miss when you don't watch Fox?


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> It kind of bothers me that scrying is so high level, as it's usually a low-power Old Wise Woman trick. It's the sort of thing I'd expect to be a Heroic Tier ritual, so the Court Wizard or the Mysterious Gypsy Woman could have it. Then again, with "Exception based design", I suppose I could say "Gypsy Fortunetellers (6th level Elite Controller (Leader)) have the Scry ritual. You can't learn it until you're 20th level. Sucks to be you."




How very strange. 1st level teleporting fey is bad, but 1st level plot-breaking scrying is good.


----------



## Cadfan (Apr 16, 2008)

Random comments

1. Yeah, it sucks we can't see any rituals, but honestly, they just gave us the entire class ability progression chart.  I'd like to see rituals as well, but if they're going to be doing this several-times-per-week preview thing, they can't give away the whole store up front.

2. "Observe Creature" doesn't do it for me.  Nor does "View Object."  If those are the names we're going to get when naming goes strictly literal, then bring on the fancy names.  I'll take a five word phrase that invokes two colors, an animal, a magic related adjective, and a sort of related verb over "view object" any day of the week.  "I cast View Object."  Seriously?

3. Four encounter powers at level 30 doesn't bother me.  First of all, that's class powers.  Several races have encounter powers, or grant additional powers.  Many magic items grant encounter powers.  You don't want too many encounter powers in the game, because a 10 to 15 round combat probably shouldn't involve an encounter power every single round.

4. Retraining has the ability to break verisimilitude.  But it also has the ability to be very thematic (exchanging levitation for fly, etc).  Which one it turns out to be depends a lot on you and your players.  Making rules to require it to be thematic would probably be a huge hassle, so I'm cool with them just leaving it up to us to season to our taste.


----------



## Belphanior (Apr 16, 2008)

Real divination doesn't kick in until the paragon tier. But we also heard that about coming back from the dead, and that's in (late) heroic.

So maybe the wise woman can still do the 2nd level Read Tealeaves ritual, the court wizard has Peek At Glass Sphere, and the gibbering old cultist has The Stars Are A Little To The Left But I'm Sure It Counts. All divinations, just pretty weak and vague.

And if they're not in, oh well. It sounds easy enough to implement.


----------



## eleran (Apr 16, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> How do you equate cost of a ritual with no progression? Are they mutually exclusive?





First of all you have to get yourself a very special magic item...Derren's Lens of Semantical Negativity.   From there it is easy.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> It kind of bothers me that scrying is so high level, as it's usually a low-power Old Wise Woman trick. It's the sort of thing I'd expect to be a Heroic Tier ritual, so the Court Wizard or the Mysterious Gypsy Woman could have it. Then again, with "Exception based design", I suppose I could say "Gypsy Fortunetellers (6th level Elite Controller (Leader)) have the Scry ritual. You can't learn it until you're 20th level. Sucks to be you."
> 
> I think "Sucks to be you" is going to be my answer to a lot of player questions, if I ever run 4e...
> 
> (Please don't tell me about the obvious game balance reason. I know the game balance reason. It's another case where flavor and Classic Tropes have been ambushed by game balance, poisoned, stabbed, and flung into the icy river to drown, only to stagger out later and...oh wait, that's Rasputin. Where was I going with this?)



Maybe the old mysterious gypsy woman is higher level then you thought? 
But maybe your answer to the players would be "sucks to be her. She is incoherently babbling most of the time. But at least for a few minutes each day, she can scry..."
(And then, typically Scrying is done with a crystal ball, right? That's a magical item, not a inherent ability)


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> How very strange. 1st level teleporting fey is bad, but 1st level plot-breaking scrying is good.




Never had any trouble with scry in any game I ran --- really! -- but teleport always gave me agita. 

I base my complaints on experience.

For some reason, no game of D&D I've either been in, or run, has used buff/scry/teleport as anything like common. I have more trouble with high Bluff/Diplomacy checks ruining plots than I have with scrying. 

But as I said, the main issue is that "Gaze into the crystal ball...." doesn't sound Epic to me. It's a cheap wizard's parlor trick in most genre works.


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Never had any trouble with scry in any game I ran --- really! -- but teleport always gave me agita.
> 
> I base my complaints on experience.
> 
> For some reason, no game of D&D I've either been in, or run, has used buff/scry/teleport as anything like common. I have more trouble with high Bluff/Diplomacy checks ruining plots than I have with scrying.




It would seem that this game you have been running has been almost, but not quite, completely different to D&D.



> But as I said, the main issue is that "Gaze into the crystal ball...." doesn't sound Epic to me. It's a cheap wizard's parlor trick in most genre works.




Insert 100-page s*mul*tionist screed on how foretelling the future completely changes the dynamic of worlds beyond repair.


----------



## Steely Dan (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Encounters are supposed to last the same number of rounds; why need more?




It just surprises me that between levels 1 and 30 you gain only 3 encounter powers.

But it's plenty enough for me.

It does mean though that you will only have 4 rounds of encounter powers, what if the encounter goes on for 11 rounds or what have you, that's another 7 rounds where you have to use your at-will and dailies (4).


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Maybe the old mysterious gypsy woman is higher level then you thought?




"Then why isn't SHE out defeating the orcs?" 



> But maybe your answer to the players would be "sucks to be her. She is incoherently babbling most of the time. But at least for a few minutes each day, she can scry..."




Note to self:Right down dialog from the hybrid in BSG to use for Old Gypsy Women.



> (And then, typically Scrying is done with a crystal ball, right? That's a magical item, not a inherent ability)




"So...old gypsy woman...alone in the wagon...no one really watching...with a magic item that grants an epic tier ability....hmmm...you did say that with no real alignments in this edition, there's no penalty for out-of-alignment acts....hmmm..."


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> "So...old gypsy woman...alone in the wagon...no one really watching...with a magic item that grants an epic tier ability....hmmm...you did say that with no real alignments in this edition, there's no penalty for out-of-alignment acts....hmmm..."




See, all your problems stem from players who are unable to tell the difference between people with red and blue circles around their feet.


----------



## Dausuul (Apr 16, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> 2. "Observe Creature" doesn't do it for me.  Nor does "View Object."  If those are the names we're going to get when naming goes strictly literal, then bring on the fancy names.  I'll take a five word phrase that invokes two colors, an animal, a magic related adjective, and a sort of related verb over "view object" any day of the week.  "I cast View Object."  Seriously?




Totally agree.  The ritual should be called "Warwizard's Scryblade."


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Scryblade.

SCRYBLADE.

I so want a magic sword called Scryblade.


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> It would seem that this game you have been running has been almost, but not quite, completely different to D&D.




Apparently, all those WOTC books we've been lugging around are expensive paperweights.




> Insert 100-page s*mul*tionist screed on how foretelling the future completely changes the dynamic of worlds beyond repair.




"Always in motion, the future is."

(I usually use scrying/precog as an excuse for the villains to be prepared. Assume the Bad Guys have access to the same magic as the heroes. They can say "When will the heroes be scrying on us?", and then, act out their little skit when the time comes. As for precog, there's nothing better than having the PCs burst into the villains lair, prepared to surprise him, and find he has big banners reading "Welcome to the heroes" with their photos on the wall and a big cake with their names on it all ready for them. And, of course, guards armed with whatever they're vulnerable to. My rule -- the longer the PCs dither about prepping, the longer the villains have to get ready for them. Either you charge in fast, or you charge into a perfect trap with everyone pre-buffed for your convenience. Your choice, guys. (Also, it's as easy for the BBEG to Charm/Dominate the hero's low level NPC friends as it is for them to C/D minions of the BBEG.."You FIEND! How did you know about my allergy to chocolate?" "Why, your best friend...and mine...Billy the Stablehand told me. He SO wanted to make sure I got you the perfect present for your birthday! Pity it's your LAST! Bwahaahha!")

Yes, my villains say "Bwahaahah!". In one game, it was faxed.

Of course, none of this is particularly relevant to the thread. But you asked...


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> Totally agree.  The ritual should be called "Warwizard's Scryblade."




"Bumbleflether's Most Puissant Viewing Of The Remotest Reaches".

Namin' it Old School!


----------



## Cadfan (Apr 16, 2008)

In 4th edition, the gypsy woman's combat level does not strictly determine her noncombat abilities.  Asking questions like "why does a 6th level controller get to scry when my 8th level wizard does not," is like asking "why does a level 1 person who's farmed all their life have a better Profession: Dirt Farmer check than my level 20 sorcerer???"  You have apparently internalized the flaws in 3e so deeply that you mistake them for realism.


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> "Always in motion, the future is."
> 
> (I usually use scrying/precog as an excuse for the villains to be prepared.




The first rule of s*mul*tionism is that there are no red and blue circles around people's feet.



> Yes, my villains say "Bwahaahah!". In one game, it was faxed.
> 
> Of course, none of this is particularly relevant to the thread. But you asked...




Insert 100-page s*mul*tionist screed for why 15-foot teleporting fey are perfectly reasonable.


----------



## Dausuul (Apr 16, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> In 4th edition, the gypsy woman's combat level does not strictly determine her noncombat abilities.  Asking questions like "why does a 6th level controller get to scry when my 8th level wizard does not," is like asking "why does a level 1 person who's farmed all their life have a better Profession: Dirt Farmer check than my level 20 sorcerer???"  You have apparently internalized the flaws in 3e so deeply that you mistake them for realism.




I am _so_ sigging that.


----------



## franzel (Apr 16, 2008)

Arkenos said:
			
		

> Using these average values, fighters and clerics get much less hp at high level than in 3e, rogues get about the same and wizards slightly more.
> In 3e the hp difference between wizard/fighter is 92 vs 215
> In 4e the hp difference between wizrad/fighter is 101 vs 150
> 
> However, healing surges are not taken into account here and are likely to be a big deal on overall combat endurance, so actual hp number comparison is to be taken with a grain of salt.




That's why healing surges are in the game.  The idea is that all classes have similar hit point values, so a DM never has to worry that if the BBEG goes after the wizard he will destroy him in a few hits (since his damage is scaled to deal with the fighter's much higher hit point total).  Everyone has roughly the same burst survivability but higher CON characters (and defenders in general) have much better encounter and long-term endurance which is exactly what I would want in D&D, but 4e is the first time it will actually be implemented.  IMO, it's one of the more elegant pieces of 4e that I'm aware of at this point.

Also, this has been discussed already in an ENWorld thread from a month ago:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221297


----------



## med stud (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> It kind of bothers me that scrying is so high level, as it's usually a low-power Old Wise Woman trick. It's the sort of thing I'd expect to be a Heroic Tier ritual, so the Court Wizard or the Mysterious Gypsy Woman could have it. Then again, with "Exception based design", I suppose I could say "Gypsy Fortunetellers (6th level Elite Controller (Leader)) have the Scry ritual. You can't learn it until you're 20th level. Sucks to be you."
> 
> I think "Sucks to be you" is going to be my answer to a lot of player questions, if I ever run 4e...
> 
> (Please don't tell me about the obvious game balance reason. I know the game balance reason. It's another case where flavor and Classic Tropes have been ambushed by game balance, poisoned, stabbed, and flung into the icy river to drown, only to stagger out later and...oh wait, that's Rasputin. Where was I going with this?)



I won't bring up game balance, I will instead bring up the Gypsy Woman. Gypsy Women tend to be vague, I haven't seen an instance of a gypsy woman showing you your enemies living room in real time.

In the case a gypsy woman _does_ show someone the living room etc, I would say that she probably is high level, an old woman that you don't want to cross. Why is she hanging out in a gypsy train with that kind of power? Well, you never know with magicians.


----------



## Cadfan (Apr 16, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> Totally agree.  The ritual should be called "Warwizard's *Crimson* Scryblade *of Razor Certainty*."



Fixed it for you.

You cast it by dipping your sword (you're a _war_wizard) into the blood of a slain foe.  The blood instantly slides up the blade, creating a thin, smooth, reflective coating.  As you stare at your face in the reflection, the world around you fades to your senses.  You see images of the enemy you hunt, and hear the beating of his heart.


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Crimson Scryblade of Razor Certainty is so Exalted.

I want one of those too!


----------



## Lizard (Apr 16, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> In 4th edition, the gypsy woman's combat level does not strictly determine her noncombat abilities.  Asking questions like "why does a 6th level controller get to scry when my 8th level wizard does not," is like asking "why does a level 1 person who's farmed all their life have a better Profession: Dirt Farmer check than my level 20 sorcerer???"  You have apparently internalized the flaws in 3e so deeply that you mistake them for realism.




You rather seem to have missed my point.

I fully understand 4e doesn't link combat and other powers. Hence, there's no reason why I *can't* give the ritual to an otherwise weak character, via the miracle of exception based design, and just tell the players "Sucks to be you" if they complain.

I'm agreeing with your post, and with the design philosophy of 4e, whole-heartedly.

I don't need to make a "gypsy seer" class or special feats or anything else tying it to PC mechanics; I just stat up a monster of whatever level I think an old gypsy woman should be, and give her whatever rituals I think she should have to do her job in the plot. Same as with any other "Monsters can, players can't" mechanic. "Sucks to be you!"

It's a good motto. I might like 4e after all.

(Gypsy camp encounter...one Old Gypsy Woman, one gypsy bravo (elite soldier), eight Scampering Gypsy Rogues (minions))

EDIT: You can get some great powers out of this...
"It is all happening as I have foreseen"
Immediate * Psychic * Recharge 6
As an opportunity action, any time an ally of the Old Gypsy Woman is forced to move adjacent to an enemy, she may used this power to allow him to make an Opportunity Attack against that enemy, if he wishes.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> "Then why isn't SHE out defeating the orcs?"



Forgotten Realms pre 4E has all the answers. (If they didn't help you for FR - like me - they won't help you with your oracle, either.)



> Note to self:Right down dialog from the hybrid in BSG to use for Old Gypsy Women.



Thanks, for two reasons: 
Reminding me of the name of the Cylon Baseship Controller Person (wanted to use it in a BSG discussion, but couldn't remember it, and for a good idea! (But the Hybrid talk seems to fit better for a sci-fi setting, does it not?)



> "So...old gypsy woman...alone in the wagon...no one really watching...with a magic item that grants an epic tier ability....hmmm...you did say that with no real alignments in this edition, there's no penalty for out-of-alignment acts....hmmm..."



So...old gypsy woman...alone in the wagon...no one really watching...with the ability to scry...hmm...I've got an Intimidate Skill of +12... there's no penalty for out-of-alignment acts-....hmm..."


In a way, this is an age-old problem. Why don't characters not simply attack the merchant selling them their cool magical items? Why don't they even try? How could can his defenses really be?


----------



## Dausuul (Apr 16, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> Dausuul said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Fixed your fix for you.

You know you can't have free-standing nouns like that.


----------



## Pinotage (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> In a way, this is an age-old problem. Why don't characters not simply attack the merchant selling them their cool magical items? Why don't they even try? How could can his defenses really be?




In Dragonlance, at least, that old man would've kicked the party's collective behind!   

Pinotage


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

eleran said:
			
		

> First of all you have to get yourself a very special magic item...Derren's Lens of Semantical Negativity.   From there it is easy.




Tried by buy one in my local magical wall-mart, but they were all out, apparently demand is quite on the rise...


----------



## DandD (Apr 16, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Scryblade.
> 
> SCRYBLADE.
> 
> I so want a magic sword called Scryblade.



That thing's called the Sword of Omens. It granted sight beyond sight. And it was handy in calling sexy cheetah-and-puma-girl reinforcements. Or tiger-boys, if you were into that.


----------



## Daniel D. Fox (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> In a way, this is an age-old problem. Why don't characters not simply attack the merchant selling them their cool magical items? Why don't they even try? How could can his defenses really be?




The problem is not the system, so much as it is the Dungeon Master. Yet, that's for another thread.


----------



## DarkKestral (Apr 16, 2008)

Actually, while others have been marveling over the progression, I wonder if we haven't seen some evidence for the "feat-based" multiclassing being the main/only method in the core books from this excerpt.I hesitate to say that with certainty but the text and the progressions seem to indicate that the game either assumes 0 changes of base class throughout or that there's something extremely major we haven't seen involving class changes.

When I mean multiclass, I don't mean "essentially single classed, except for a couple of powers," which is something that sounds like the perfect reason to have a class training feats that give a couple of the powers of a class and that's it. I also don't mean retrains like "Oh, i was a wizard 10, but now I'm a fighter 11 now that I've leveled.." I mean combos like a fighter/warlock which combine multiple classes pretty much evenly and for a good portion of the character's career.

One possibility I just thought of is that multiclassing is supposed to be primarily done on a tier basis. An example of this idea would be a character who wants to be a combo fighter/mage picks up one of their classes from 1-10, then the other from 11-20, then has an epic destiny designed to blend them from 21-30 (I don't know how the epic levels would play out though in terms of class choice). This might be in lieu of a paragon path, for example, or even an epic destiny (which explains the coyness of some of the devs regarding characters without them.) as it is possible that could be a way to add class features and appropriate powers, as the additional features might add onto the 'base' that is already present without taking away the class features of the base class. In that case, it would definitely be reasonable to have the 'multiclass' characters features be slightly less potent than the single-classed character's of the same type, though where applicable, more potent than those of someone who doesn't have the "class" at all. Likewise, while a multiclass path/destiny offer's up more variety in the power selection over the entire tier and enable a character to pick relatively freely from both class's lists, the class training feats might allow a single, one time choice from another class's power list.


----------



## Steely Dan (Apr 16, 2008)

So there's no 1/2 level as bonus damage in 4th Ed, ala _Saga_?


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Steely Dan said:
			
		

> So there's no 1/2 level as bonus damage in 4th Ed, ala _Saga_?



 You know, I suspect 1/2 level will indeed be added to damage, at least for PCs. Initiative is clearly Dex mod + 1/2 level, and there's been no sign of any basic Dex mod anywhere (ie, without the level bit).


----------



## Steely Dan (Apr 16, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> *1.) * You know, I suspect 1/2 level will indeed be added to damage, at least for PCs.
> 
> *2.)* and there's been no sign of any basic Dex mod anywhere (ie, without the level bit).




*1.)* Oh, thank god.  **in the voice of Austin Powers**

*2.)* I thought I saw a rogue power that stated that you add your Dex modifier to damage…?


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Steely Dan said:
			
		

> *2.)* I thought I saw a rogue power that stated that you add your Dex modifier to damage…?




Well, that could be "Dex modifier" as in (Dex score/2 - 5) , or as in (Dex score/2 - 5) + (level/2). It remains unclear.


----------



## ForumFerret (Apr 16, 2008)

Steely Dan said:
			
		

> So there's no 1/2 level as bonus damage in 4th Ed, ala _Saga_?




You're getting +1/2 level to stat modifiers, and I would expect those to be part-and-parcel of [w] damage. So effectively, yes.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Apr 16, 2008)

I'm a little confused.

I was under the impression wizards had more daily powers than most of the other classes (perhaps more than any of them).  I'd provide a link if I could, but I can't, so I'm willing to concede that I just made it up and told it to myself, but I swear a dev mentioned it in an article or podcast.  Anyway, obviously everyone has the same amount of at will, encounter, daily, and utility powers at any given level.

So what does that mean for the wizard, exactly?  They have the most daily powers to choose from?  Part of my expectation of wizards is that they are _versatile_.  So this consolidation is a little surprising to me.


----------



## Steely Dan (Apr 16, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Well, that could be "Dex modifier" as in (Dex score/2 - 5) , or as in (Dex score/2 - 5) + (level/2). It remains unclear.




Yeah, because I've seen the term "add Dex" (which would mean modifier + 1/2 level) and "add Dex _modifier_".


----------



## Cadfan (Apr 16, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> I'm a little confused.
> 
> I was under the impression wizards had more daily powers than most of the other classes (perhaps more than any of them).  I'd provide a link if I could, but I can't, so I'm willing to concede that I just made it up and told it to myself, but I swear a dev mentioned it in an article or podcast.  Anyway, obviously everyone has the same amount of at will, encounter, daily, and utility powers at any given level.
> 
> So what does that mean for the wizard, exactly?  They have the most daily powers to choose from?  Part of my expectation of wizards is that they are _versatile_.  So this consolidation is a little surprising to me.



If wizards vary from the overall framework (and they obviously do from the pre generated wizard), then its probably listed in the wizard's class entry.


----------



## Doug Justice (Apr 16, 2008)

I know what at-will, encounter and daily powers are, but what are utility powers?


----------



## Pinotage (Apr 16, 2008)

DarkKestral said:
			
		

> One possibility I just thought of is that multiclassing is supposed to be primarily done on a tier basis.




I'm thinking this as well. That it might be restricted to being tier-based. I suspect that a single class character will advance according to the table we've seen today, chosing powers from the class list. I also suspect that there might be a 'multiclassing' table that allows perhaps more powers, but lower level, and allows choosing powers from the list from two (or more) classes. You'd end up progressing in your primary class with the same level of powers (probably less, though) and get additional lower level powers of your secondary class. That means you don't lag behind in power for spellcasting, but you still maintain some of the abilities of the new class.

Pinotage


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Well, that could be "Dex modifier" as in (Dex score/2 - 5) , or as in (Dex score/2 - 5) + (level/2). It remains unclear.



The wording is different in some previews:

Renewing Smite
Paladin 13 
Encounter • Healing, Weapon 
Standard Action
Melee weapon 
Target: One creature 
Attack: Charisma vs. AC 
Hit: 2x[W] + Cha damage and ally within 5 heals 10 + your Wisdom modifier damage.

Safeguard Smite
Paladin 1 
Encounter • Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon 
Target: One creature 
Attack: Charisma vs. AC 
Hit: 2x[W] + Cha.

Positioning Strike
Rogue Attack 1
Encounter [ ] Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.

I think the Rogue power is the most recent, so, the most trustful one. 
When it says "Dexterity", as in the "Attack" part, it means Dex score/2 -5 + level/2.
When it says "Dexterity modifier", as in the part, it probably means Dex score/2 -5.
I think it would not make sense distinct wordings meaning the same thing.


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Doug Justice said:
			
		

> I know what at-will, encounter and daily powers are, but what are utility powers?



 Stuff that gets used in combat, but isn't directly related to hurting people. Defensive buffs, fly, invisibility were examples given before.


----------



## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Doug Justice said:
			
		

> I know what at-will, encounter and daily powers are, but what are utility powers?



Tumble
Rogue Utility 2
You tumble out of harm’s way, dodging the opportunistic attacks of your enemies.

Encounter [ ] Martial
Move Action
Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Acrobatics. 

Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal to one-half your speed


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Apr 16, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> If wizards vary from the overall framework (and they obviously do from the pre generated wizard), then its probably listed in the wizard's class entry.




Ok, cool.  Good to know!  I haven't had much experience with the pregens.


----------



## Voss (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> "Bumbleflether's Most Puissant Viewing Of The Remotest Reaches".
> 
> Namin' it Old School!




I miss old school.
Or rather, 
Ye Aulde Skoole


----------



## Bishmon (Apr 16, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> I'm a little confused.
> 
> I was under the impression wizards had more daily powers than most of the other classes (perhaps more than any of them).  I'd provide a link if I could, but I can't, so I'm willing to concede that I just made it up and told it to myself, but I swear a dev mentioned it in an article or podcast.  Anyway, obviously everyone has the same amount of at will, encounter, daily, and utility powers at any given level.
> 
> So what does that mean for the wizard, exactly?  They have the most daily powers to choose from?  Part of my expectation of wizards is that they are _versatile_.  So this consolidation is a little surprising to me.



That might have been in reference to their spellbook. In the pregen, we saw the wizard had two different daily powers in his spellbook, but he could only prepare one of them at any given time.

There might be a similar thing for higher-level dailies. The wizard can choose two to put into his spellbook, but he can only use one of them on any given day. The wizard would therefore have more dailies than other classes, but he'd only be able to use his dailies in total the same amount as everyone else.

But that's just speculation.


----------



## Mirtek (Apr 16, 2008)

Bayonet_Chris said:
			
		

> I would almost hope that rituals would require some sort of side quest. Knowing the ritual and getting everything you need to use it would be two separate things. For example, yes - my cleric knows the Raise Dead ritual. It may require that I take a trip to the underworld to rescue my buddy and bring him back to his body though. It might require some rare component. Or both.
> 
> It's too early to speculate, obviously, but that would be more of a "cost" that would be inline with the heroic ideal.



The downside is that 

a) every death would distract from the campaign for at least one evening of gaming

b) the player of the death character could only sit and watch


----------



## hong (Apr 16, 2008)

Mirtek said:
			
		

> The downside is that
> 
> a) every death would distract from the campaign for at least one evening of gaming
> 
> b) the player of the death character could only sit and watch



 See, you could solve these problems by simply banning dying.


----------



## Stalker0 (Apr 16, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> is like asking "why does a level 1 person who's farmed all their life have a better Profession: Dirt Farmer check than my level 20 sorcerer???"




Actually he probably doesn't, as a 20th level sorc gets a +10 to all skill checks


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## WyzardWhately (Apr 16, 2008)

I get pretty tired of GMs complaining that this spell or that spell "ruins their plot."  You know what the solution to that is?  Don't have a plot.  Have compelling NPCs and organizations and whatnot in the world who are trying to do varying things.  Trap the PCs in the middle and let them make their own decisions, and find their own solutions.  If you need the characters to follow your plot, or else everything is going to be "ruined," then _go write a novel._ 

I cannot count how many GMs I've seen try to bring the hammer down on the PCs at every turn to preserve some half-assed "story" that wouldn't have held up in a ThunderCats episode.


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## Mercule (Apr 16, 2008)

ForumFerret said:
			
		

> You're getting +1/2 level to stat modifiers, and I would expect those to be part-and-parcel of [w] damage. So effectively, yes.



I have a couple friends who had a tirade about str 8 wizards arm-wrestling str 18 fighters (and the 25% chance the wizard will beat them in a straight-up str check) when 3e was first released.  Apparently, such things make a system unworthy for human consumption.

I can't wait for the reaction when they find out that a 20th level wizard (str 8), with an 8 str is going to have a 75% win rate against a 1st level fighter (str 18).  Blood will shoot from their eyes.  I'm bringing popcorn.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

Mercule said:
			
		

> I have a couple friends who had a tirade about str 8 wizards arm-wrestling str 18 fighters (and the 25% chance the wizard will beat them in a straight-up str check) when 3e was first released.  Apparently, such things make a system unworthy for human consumption.
> 
> I can't wait for the reaction when they find out that a 20th level wizard (str 8), with an 8 str is going to have a 75% win rate against a 1st level fighter (str 18).  Blood will shoot from their eyes.  I'm bringing popcorn.



And bandages, I hope. 

At least 3E didn't allow rolling in these cases. If you just wanted to now who has the higher ability score, you compared the scores. No rolls. I am not sure if this s*mulation*st aspect of the rules will survive in 4E, but neither do I really care.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Mercule said:
			
		

> I have a couple friends who had a tirade about str 8 wizards arm-wrestling str 18 fighters (and the 25% chance the wizard will beat them in a straight-up str check) when 3e was first released.  Apparently, such things make a system unworthy for human consumption.
> 
> I can't wait for the reaction when they find out that a 20th level wizard (str 8), with an 8 str is going to have a 75% win rate against a 1st level fighter (str 18).  Blood will shoot from their eyes.  I'm bringing popcorn.



I always thought the rule for armwrestling was: The character with higher STR score wins.


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## Jack99 (Apr 16, 2008)

Mercule said:
			
		

> I have a couple friends who had a tirade about str 8 wizards arm-wrestling str 18 fighters (and the 25% chance the wizard will beat them in a straight-up str check) when 3e was first released.  Apparently, such things make a system unworthy for human consumption.
> 
> I can't wait for the reaction when they find out that a 20th level wizard (str 8), with an 8 str is going to have a 75% win rate against a 1st level fighter (str 18).  Blood will shoot from their eyes.  I'm bringing popcorn.




Bring a phone as well, and upload the video for our entertainment!


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## WyzardWhately (Apr 16, 2008)

Mercule said:
			
		

> I have a couple friends who had a tirade about str 8 wizards arm-wrestling str 18 fighters (and the 25% chance the wizard will beat them in a straight-up str check) when 3e was first released.  Apparently, such things make a system unworthy for human consumption.
> 
> I can't wait for the reaction when they find out that a 20th level wizard (str 8), with an 8 str is going to have a 75% win rate against a 1st level fighter (str 18).  Blood will shoot from their eyes.  I'm bringing popcorn.




See, I'm willing to roll with that, and simply make it a known part of the setting.  High-level people are godawful scary.  That stick-thin Wizard, the one who looks like he's never worked a day in his life?  Well, he's gone to other worlds, contended with devils, and cast world-altering magics.  His strength no longer comes from his muscles alone, and he can easily best Thomas the Blacksmith in a feat of strength.

It makes the world more clearly supernatural, but I'm not going to fight the game-world being what it is.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Apr 16, 2008)

WyzardWhately said:
			
		

> If you need the characters to follow your plot, or else everything is going to be "ruined," then _go write a novel._




While I don't necessarily agree with the tone, that's my feeling on the matter as well.  I will say that if you're going to run a plot-based game, try and take the "plot-ruining" powers into consideration rather than trying to build without them.  Think about the villains, and what they would do with similar rituals and opportunities.  What's good for the goose, etc.


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## AZRogue (Apr 16, 2008)

Utility powers aren't replaced by newer powers. You still remember the ones from before.

So, does anyone see anything game breaking with characters remembering their old encounter and daily powers? The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be a hard line house rule for me.


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## WyzardWhately (Apr 16, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> While I don't necessarily agree with the tone, that's my feeling on the matter as well.  I will say that if you're going to run a plot-based game, try and take the "plot-ruining" powers into consideration rather than trying to build without them.  Think about the villains, and what they would do with similar rituals and opportunities.  What's good for the goose, etc.




You're right about the tone, that's my bad.  I have been a part of too many games ruined by this attitude, and I've got some leftover bitterness, I suppose.  I ended up leading the rest of the PCs in what I refer to as the "Great Plot Rebellion," and...well, one less bad GM in the world, because that guy swore he'd never run a game again.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> So...old gypsy woman...alone in the wagon...no one really watching...with the ability to scry...hmm...I've got an Intimidate Skill of +12... there's no penalty for out-of-alignment acts-....hmm..."



 "I attack the gypsy woman."

DM: Just as you start to raise your arm to attack her, she looks at you with a piercing gaze and speaks quietly, "You may want to reconsider that.  An old gypsy woman, alone in her wagon with her crystal ball has plenty of time to look into the sea of future events and prepare for a young, foolish bravo such as yourself.  Following the waves of what you contemplate doing, your future seems surprisingly short, even in those ripples where you leave this wagon alive and with what you desire."


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

WyzardWhately said:
			
		

> I get pretty tired of GMs complaining that this spell or that spell "ruins their plot."  You know what the solution to that is?  Don't have a plot.  Have compelling NPCs and organizations and whatnot in the world who are trying to do varying things.  Trap the PCs in the middle and let them make their own decisions, and find their own solutions.  If you need the characters to follow your plot, or else everything is going to be "ruined," then _go write a novel._
> 
> I cannot count how many GMs I've seen try to bring the hammer down on the PCs at every turn to preserve some half-assed "story" that wouldn't have held up in a ThunderCats episode.



As a world-builder that my players later can use as a playground, I still have to take all these abilities into account. And that can create some very bizarre worlds. That probably won't really change in 4E. 

And then, I am not such a great DM that I can give my players total freedom. They can't go everywhere in the world and expect me to have that part ready for them to interact with. I am happy if I manage to keep my adventure idea in mind and don't forget important details, or details I added for fluff/flavor/enjoyment.

Just as an example for something that is game-breaking (if you didn't take it into account) in my view: 
Let's assume I add a murder scene happens. At 1st level, if the players choose to interact, they will have a lot of leg work to do. (But Detect Evil can totally wreck the idea of a good-pretending evil guy)
 At 5th level, they have spells at their disposal that willl allow them to compel others to tell the truth. That changes how the adventure must be built. The culprit needs to either have counter-magic, or not get even close to the characters. At higher levels, I have to take into account Speak with Dead (which is a pretty nice spell for this, I admit. It's not so hard to make it useful without game-breaking). As levels grow, the number of spell that become "auto-win" buttons increase if you don't take them into account. The problem is predicting when this will become true. 

Sure, I don't have to introduce this kinds of scenarios at all. But the point is - it could have been fun doing so, but if you know a spell can shortcut everything, it's becoming a lot harder. 

But more importantly, this doesn't have to be a "fixed" plot. My only assumption is that the PCs will be motivated enough to find out that who was the murderer. How they do it, I don't care, as long as it can entertain us for a session.

With guidelines for what to expect in tiers,
1) I know what I have to take into account when coming up with adventure ideas and scenarios. I don't have to care about Scry-Buff-Teleport at Heroic Tier, and I can make it nearly a requirement for Paragon level. 
2) I have a lot of time to use the concepts that fit in there. This is probably the most important part, since spells always came with a level limit. But they came early and often, and that made it hard to have a free-form campaign over multiple levels.


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

_Detect Thoughts_, _Detect Evil_, and _Speak with Dead_ are the most likely ways for a low-level mystery to be blown out of the water.  Something tells me that there is no more _Detect Evil_ (or any alignment for that matter), and that the other two are higher-level rituals than we would expect from earlier editions of the game.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

AZRogue said:
			
		

> Utility powers aren't replaced by newer powers. You still remember the ones from before.
> 
> So, does anyone see anything game breaking with characters remembering their old encounter and daily powers? The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be a hard line house rule for me.



I suppose even low level per day and per encounter powers are usually better then at-will powers. So the problem is that you get to use more of them in each individual encounter or day, which can be game-breaking. It might work if you have some kind of "pool" from which you draw encounter powers, so in each given encounter, you can only use 3-5 of them, despite knowing all the old ones. That might be an easy house rule. (From a pure gamist perspective.)


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## AllisterH (Apr 16, 2008)

AZRogue said:
			
		

> Utility powers aren't replaced by newer powers. You still remember the ones from before.
> 
> So, does anyone see anything game breaking with characters remembering their old encounter and daily powers? The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be a hard line house rule for me.




I would modify it so that if the "theme" is followed, you can upgrade. Basically, if the 1st level power is "Levitation" and then they want to replace it with "Fly", they should be able to.

Other than that, I doubt there would be a noticeable difference as many of the powers seem to inherently scale with level or are powers that are good for any level.


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## malraux (Apr 16, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> While I don't necessarily agree with the tone, that's my feeling on the matter as well.  I will say that if you're going to run a plot-based game, try and take the "plot-ruining" powers into consideration rather than trying to build without them.  Think about the villains, and what they would do with similar rituals and opportunities.  What's good for the goose, etc.



One of the issues might be that the exceptional powers appear relatively quickly in previous editions.  Speak with Dead pops up with no cost at 5th level, but of course a scroll of it could be purchased earlier.  Because of that, murder mysteries can really only happen at first and second level, or extremely clever DMing.  And while of course extremely clever DMing is the ideal, unfortunately I like to DM.  I don't think that the issue is that these solutions to problems exist, its that they show up so quickly in the game world that DMs need a good system mastery to create plots, even at the lower levels of the game.


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## Shroomy (Apr 16, 2008)

AZRogue said:
			
		

> Utility powers aren't replaced by newer powers. You still remember the ones from before.
> 
> So, does anyone see anything game breaking with characters remembering their old encounter and daily powers? The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be a hard line house rule for me.




IMO, I don't think it is really necessary to keep the old powers, because in my view, they didn't really go away, instead they are subsumed by the more powerful exploits, spells, and prayers.  Since 4e powers are constructed in a modular fashion, its useful to think of lower level powers providing the building blocks for higher level powers, even if their progression doesn't seem immediately obvious.


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## Stormtalon (Apr 16, 2008)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> "I attack the gypsy woman."
> 
> DM: Just as you start to raise your arm to attack her, she looks at you with a piercing gaze and speaks quietly, "You may want to reconsider that.  An old gypsy woman, alone in her wagon with her crystal ball has plenty of time to look into the sea of future events and prepare for a young, foolish bravo such as yourself.  Following the waves of what you contemplate doing, your future seems surprisingly short, even in those ripples where you leave this wagon alive and with what you desire."




Oh, good god, yes.  Please sir, may I have some more?  Hmmm, alternately:

"Think ye that this will grant all which you desire?  It may not end as ye wish.  I could tell ye the tale of a young woman many years ago who acted as ye.  A woman who found herself tied by fate to the object of her murderous greed and bound to its wishes.  I ask ye, then -- would ye take her place?  If ye would then swing true -- I tire of this curse."


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## GoodKingJayIII (Apr 16, 2008)

malraux said:
			
		

> One of the issues might be that the exceptional powers appear relatively quickly in previous editions.  Speak with Dead pops up with no cost at 5th level, but of course a scroll of it could be purchased earlier.




I know we're getting way off topic here, but Pushing Daisies is a great example of having something like _Speak with Dead_ and it still being only marginally helpful when solving a murder.  So there are definitely interesting ways of using the tropes of the world.

But your point remains:  it's difficult to deal with things like that.  What's nice about ritual magic is that, even if the prerequisites for the _speak with dead_ ritual are only 1000 gp, because the system is separate from the allotment of PC combat abilities, it may be easier to work in other kinds of restrictions.  So the ritual might involve:

- sprinkling 1000 gp of ivory dust on the dead body
- some blood from the deceased's relative
- the tongue of a ghoul

Then these things have to be acquired, and getting them is an adventure in and of itself.  The cleric doesn't simply know the spell upon reaching 5th level.


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## FadedC (Apr 16, 2008)

Speak with dead never really had to foil a murder mystery if you didn't want it to. Remember that

1) The dead can't tell you what they don't know. The victim could have easily not seen his killer

2) Speak with dead often gives a cryptic answer, which may give a clue but not the whole story.

3) A killer who is afraid of a speak with dead spell can always remove or mutilate the head.

I had much more of an issue with raise dead in murder mysteries.....


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## Lacyon (Apr 16, 2008)

FadedC said:
			
		

> Speak with dead never really had to foil a murder mystery if you didn't want it to. Remember that
> 
> 1) The dead can't tell you what they don't know. The victim could have easily not seen his killer
> 
> ...




4) Turn the victim into an undead.


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## Cadfan (Apr 16, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Ok, cool.  Good to know!  I haven't had much experience with the pregens.



No problem.  The wizard wizard varied as follows: he had a collection of extra at will abilities that were basically improved versions of the more popular cantrips, and he had two per day abilities instead of one.  Then he had a rule that said that these per day abilities were in his spellbook, and that every morning he prepped one and only one of them.  That meant that during the day he had access to just one per day ability (like everyone else) but that he had some versatility in choosing that ability in advance, much like a 3e wizard.

We don't know yet whether a wizard can add new per day abilities to his spellbook 3e style, or whether he just picks extra per day abilities when he levels up.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Apr 16, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> I know we're getting way off topic here, but Pushing Daisies is a great example of having something like _Speak with Dead_ and it still being only marginally helpful when solving a murder.  So there are definitely interesting ways of using the tropes of the world.



 I was thinking the same thing.  Of course part of the reason it is only marginally helpful most of the time is because Chuck usually spends some of the 60 seconds asking them other things about their life.  Still, I have been considering using it as a model for a Speaks with Dead spell.  60 seconds, you can ask as much as you want in that time, but the person might be a bit confused and is under no magical complusion to answer the questions you might ask.


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## AZRogue (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> I suppose even low level per day and per encounter powers are usually better then at-will powers. So the problem is that you get to use more of them in each individual encounter or day, which can be game-breaking. It might work if you have some kind of "pool" from which you draw encounter powers, so in each given encounter, you can only use 3-5 of them, despite knowing all the old ones. That might be an easy house rule. (From a pure gamist perspective.)




That's true, but I'm thinking that there will be many new actions possible from magic items already (their primary purpose) so, since I'm going to be magic-item-light, it will balance out. The players, with magic items, will already have, by default, more options available than there are rounds in combat.


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## WyzardWhately (Apr 16, 2008)

Lacyon said:
			
		

> 4) Turn the victim into an undead.




This is my favorite.  Not only did the murderer kill the mayor, he turned him into a ghoul.  So, you can't use your little tricks on him, but he's also eaten the household staff.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 16, 2008)

FadedC said:
			
		

> Speak with dead never really had to foil a murder mystery if you didn't want it to. Remember that
> 
> 1) The dead can't tell you what they don't know. The victim could have easily not seen his killer
> 
> ...



Don't hinge yourself up on a single spell. There are more, and murder mysteries are also not the only type of mystery (or even "plot"). You can often find ways to utilize or negate this spells to good effect, but it requires work and planning, and sometimes this work just doesn't feel justified, or is possible to do. It can also throw off people that enjoy more or less free-form adventuring, based on only a few lines filled with ideas, the rest in their head - without taking into account every spell into account while the story unravels mid-game, this can come to an unexpected, sudden end...


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## hamishspence (Apr 16, 2008)

*GM steering subtly*

"I tire of this curse" that is a most excellent concept, worth pinching. It general if the players cannot listen to very strong hints, tough luck for them.

P: i listen at the door
DM: ok, but..
P: No buts! I listen at the door. What do I hear?
DM: You hear the ogre chieftain saying "Look at stupid thief! Stupid thief is listening at open door!" You also hear the sound of a greataxe sweeping toward your neck. Briefly.


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## Verys Arkon (Apr 16, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Well, that could be "Dex modifier" as in (Dex score/2 - 5) , or as in (Dex score/2 - 5) + (level/2). It remains unclear.




This quote from the Paladin Smite article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071128 seems to indicate that 1/2 level is added to damage (but perhaps only from powers?).  Emphasis added.



> Renewing Smite
> Paladin 13
> Encounter • Healing, Weapon
> Standard Action
> ...




The only way damage could "scale up, but not necessarily the amount of dice" is to add 1/2 level, as far as I can see.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Verys Arkon said:
			
		

> The only way damage could "scale up, but not necessarily the amount of dice" is to add 1/2 level, as far as I can see.



What about this:

Torturous Strike
Rogue Attack 1
If you twist the blade in the wound just so, you can make your enemy howl in pain.

Encounter [ ] Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.


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## Mirtek (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Don't hinge yourself up on a single spell. There are more, and murder mysteries are also not the only type of mystery (or even "plot"). You can often find ways to utilize or negate this spells to good effect, but it requires work and planning,



So it sucks to be a murderer. Either you're clever or you get caught quickly.

Just the way D&D worlds, with their anti-easy-plot-magic, work: 99% success rate in catching murderers and the 1% are the clever guys the PCs have to deal with


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## jaldaen (Apr 16, 2008)

I wonder if "at will" powers are tied specifically to your choice of initial class, paragon path, and epic destiny... so you would not have to include them on the powers by class level table. Adding an extra column that only increases number at 11th and 21st levels might be a bit wasteful layout wise.

So in short there might be one or two "at-will" powers gained from a PCs paragon path and epic destiny. Or mybe just its paragon path... Should be interesting to see if the rules work out this way.


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## FadedC (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Don't hinge yourself up on a single spell. There are more, and murder mysteries are also not the only type of mystery (or even "plot"). You can often find ways to utilize or negate this spells to good effect, but it requires work and planning, and sometimes this work just doesn't feel justified, or is possible to do. It can also throw off people that enjoy more or less free-form adventuring, based on only a few lines filled with ideas, the rest in their head - without taking into account every spell into account while the story unravels mid-game, this can come to an unexpected, sudden end...




Other then raise type spells there aren't really that many other spells that really wreck a murder mystery. Most divinations give clues rather then answers and detect evil has a million ways to play around....my favorite of which was just to make sure plenty fo random people who weren't villains were evil. The only other spoiler that really comes to mind is using commune to ask a simple yes or no question on weither each suspect was the killer or not.


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## ZombieRoboNinja (Apr 16, 2008)

Just to throw in another table... here's the info from that article, merged a bit. It looks like you get one thing every level (after first level), including ability score adjustments but NOT including feats.

1	2 at-will, 1 encounter, 1 daily
2	utility
3 	encounter
4	ability score
5	daily
6	utility
7	encounter
8	ability score
9	daily
10	utility
11	encounter (paragon)
12	utility (paragon)
13	encounter
14	ability score
15	daily (replacement)
16	utility
17	encounter (replacement)
18	ability score?
19	daily (replacement)
20	daily (paragon)
21	ability score?
22	utility
23	encounter (replacement)
24	ability score?
25	daily (replacement)
26	utility (epic)
27	encounter (replacement)
28	ability score?
29	daily (replacement)
30	ability score?

As for feats... we know you get one at level 1 and level 11, so I'm guessing it's one feat at every even-numbered level, plus one at the first level of each tier (1, 11, 21).

And retraining is "in," which in this case seems to mean that each level you can retrain one feat, and at each of the "(replacement)" levels you can retrain a power. It would also seem you can never retrain utility powers.


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## Henry (Apr 16, 2008)

hamishspence said:
			
		

> "I tire of this curse" that is a most excellent concept, worth pinching. It general if the players cannot listen to very strong hints, tough luck for them.
> 
> P: i listen at the door
> DM: ok, but..
> ...




You know, ear seekers are the generally accepted way to handle this sort of thing.


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## Verys Arkon (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> What about this:
> 
> Torturous Strike
> Rogue Attack 1
> ...




Here is another quote from the same Paladin Smite article (emphasis added).



> In binding smite you can see an example of how the effect of a smite goes up with level, while the numbers in their base form seem similar when not taking into account the accuracy and *damage boosts that merely gaining levels* (and having better weapons) affords. It just gets … well, better. Heck, it's epic, after all, so it has to be good, and you don't have to have 4th Edition books in front of you to realize line of effect denial is good. When you're fighting balor, ancient blue dragons, and sorrowsworn, it had better be good -- those critters don't fool around!




I think given all the text written, as opposed to a stat block, demonstrates that damage goes up with level.  It is mentioned in two places, and is pretty clear.  Does it apply to 'basic attacks'?  I don't know.


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## WyzardWhately (Apr 16, 2008)

FadedC said:
			
		

> Other then raise type spells there aren't really that many other spells that really wreck a murder mystery. Most divinations give clues rather then answers and detect evil has a million ways to play around....my favorite of which was just to make sure plenty fo random people who weren't villains were evil. The only other spoiler that really comes to mind is using commune to ask a simple yes or no question on weither each suspect was the killer or not.




I know I potentially have a different reading of how to run alignment than most people do, but...well, I wouldn't consider the average Murder She Wrote perp to be a good candidate for Detect Evil.

That said, the idea of Angela Lansbury as some kind of Paladin/Master Inquisitor is _delightful._


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Verys Arkon said:
			
		

> Here is another quote from the same Paladin Smite article (emphasis added).
> 
> I think given all the text written, as opposed to a stat block, demonstrates that damage goes up with level.  It is mentioned in two places, and is pretty clear.  Does it apply to 'basic attacks'?  I don't know.



OK. But keep in mind that the Paladin Smites article is 3 months older than the Rogue article.
Things might have changed.

"Dexterity modifier damage" seems pretty clear and straightforward  to me.


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## Ingolf (Apr 16, 2008)

WyzardWhately said:
			
		

> I cannot count how many GMs I've seen try to bring the hammer down on the PCs at every turn to preserve some half-assed "story" that wouldn't have held up in a ThunderCats episode.




What you're bitching about is bad game-mastering, not games with plots. 

Some people - most people I'd wager - prefer their games to have some sort of plot framework to hang the encounters and so forth on, even if it's a fairly rudimentary or trite one.


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## WyzardWhately (Apr 16, 2008)

Ingolf said:
			
		

> What you're bitching about is bad game-mastering, not games with plots.
> 
> Some people - most people I'd wager - prefer their games to have some sort of plot framework to hang the encounters and so forth on, even if it's a fairly rudimentary or trite one.




Depends on what you mean by plot.  Do you mean something overarching going on?  Yeah, of course, who wouldn't want that?  Or do you mean something more like a course of action which the PCs must follow?  Because that's what I'm talking about, and that's what a LOT of people mean when they say "plot."


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## Verys Arkon (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> OK. But keep in mind that the Paladin Smites article is 3 months older than the Rogue article.
> Things might have changed.




That is very true, and I might indeed be wrong.  However, 1/2 level to damage seems to be a fairly major shift in the 'system math'...


----------



## KidSnide (Apr 16, 2008)

Verys Arkon said:
			
		

> Here is another quote from the same Paladin Smite article .
> 
> I think given all the text written, as opposed to a stat block, demonstrates that damage goes up with level.  It is mentioned in two places, and is pretty clear.  Does it apply to 'basic attacks'?  I don't know.



I agree that the quoted text is clear.  

I think our uncertainty comes from the fact that the monster stats that we've been seeing clearly *don't* add 1/2 level to damage.  Of course, PCs and monsters may just work differently.  But, since the Smite article is pretty old, it seems safe to say that we don't yet know for sure.


----------



## Gundark (Apr 16, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> Wow... We on the boards are so not going to be able to keep up with this info, by the time we are half done debating/arguing over the last thing. The new one will crop up.
> 
> I am liking what I am seeing though, also interesting thing with items:
> 
> Could this be the beginning of how we determine adjustments if you don't wish to have magic items?




Your first point... yes I think you're right...which is a very good thing. I got tired of reading thread that degenerated into an arguement after page 3.

2nd point....interesting....I think you might be on to something there.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Gundark said:
			
		

> Your first point... yes I think you're right...which is a very good thing. I got tired of reading thread that degenerated into an arguement after page 3.
> 
> 2nd point....interesting....I think you might be on to something there.



This post could be relevant to this subject.


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## lightblade (Apr 16, 2008)

ZombieRoboNinja said:
			
		

> As for feats... we know you get one at level 1 and level 11, so I'm guessing it's one feat at every even-numbered level, plus one at the first level of each tier (1, 11, 21).
> 
> And retraining is "in," which in this case seems to mean that each level you can retrain one feat, and at each of the "(replacement)" levels you can retrain a power. It would also seem you can never retrain utility powers.




I bet you're right about the feat frequency .  I'm sure the designers want something easy to remember, and your system is solid, IMO.

Your table is really nice.  I think you forgot to include the stat bump at 11th level, but otherwise looks good. Edit; you know, I bet the ability bumps follow a similar trend; 4, 8, 11, 14, 18, 21, 24, 28.  That matches the 8 ability bumps cited on the forums somewhere.

My guess for retraining is that you can pick either a feat or a power (or something else, like a skill) to retrain each level.  For powers, you can probably retrain within the same power level or lower.  So, i think you will be able to retrain utility powers.  

This is separate from the combat powers, since when you pick a new one you need to give up an old one for the slot if you're full; I wouldn't count that as retraining.


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## frankthedm (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> In a way, this is an age-old problem. Why don't characters not simply attack the merchant selling them their cool magical items? Why don't they even try? How could can his defenses really be?



The old man does not have the items PCs want on him, nor in the store's backroom. He makes the sale, collects the coin, splits the profit with the item's owner and has the item delivered to the PCs with the utmost discretion.

The crap in the backroom is generally superficially magical or cursed. The _Golden Hairpin of illusionary Youth_, The _Jade Mace of Exotic Pleasuring_ {this is the 'backroom' after all],  a _-1 sword_ that glows like a _+5 sword_ and other less helpful items will be found there.


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## Ingolf (Apr 16, 2008)

WyzardWhately said:
			
		

> Depends on what you mean by plot.  Do you mean something overarching going on?  Yeah, of course, who wouldn't want that?  Or do you mean something more like a course of action which the PCs must follow?  Because that's what I'm talking about, and that's what a LOT of people mean when they say "plot."




In general I mean something overarching going on, with NPC actors that have their own agendas, secrets and so forth. Plenty of those sorts of "plots" can be subverted by things like scry, etc, and as a DM I get tired of constantly having to account for that sort of thing at all times, but I can deal with it.

But the second type is not automatically a bad thing. No one likes to be railroaded, of course, and if a DM is going to restrict what the PCs can do, it has to be done rarely and with considerable care, or the players will (rightly) object.

For example, my last 3.5 campaign started with all of the PCs in prison together after being captured by slavers. When play started, the rogue had just managed to lift a key off the hobgoblin jailer and the escape was on. Later in that same campaign, I framed one of the PCs for the murder of his Lord in a fairly complicated story involving plenty of behind-the-scenes political maneuvering, a bastard son and (eventually) a trial by combat.

Both of those were situations where the PCs were forced into a specific course of action, but I don't think either of them were "bad" plots or stories, and based on the reaction of my players they didn't think so either. And in the case of the PC framed for murder, something as trivial as "Detect Thoughts" could have made the entire thing a hell of a lot less interesting - I could only run that particular game because I have fairly oddball players and there was no one in the group capable of casting it. Oh, sure, the actual murderer could have been wearing a lead-lined hat all the time or something silly like that I suppose. But the best solution (for me at least) is to just dispense with things like "Detect Thoughts" and the various other plot-twisting effects entirely.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> The crap in the backroom is generally superficially magical or cursed. The _Golden Hairpin of illusionary Youth_, The _Jade Mace of Exotic Pleasuring_ {this is the 'backroom' after all],  a _-1 sword_ that glows like a _+5 sword_ and other less helpful items will be found there.



That's how it works around here.

Once the players killed the vendor to steal his magic items. They found a cursed axe!
The axe attracted demons every time it was used. 
The axe was so cursed that no matter what they did to get rid of it, the axe managed to return to them.
One of the players had the smart idea to pack the axe and pay an errant boy to send the package to an address on the other side of the world. It worked for some time.
The axe was so damn cursed that when we started a whole new campaign, with whole new characters (in the same setting), that player's character one day received a mysterious package at his home, coming from the other side of the world....

They never killed vendors to steal their magic items again.


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## drjones (Apr 16, 2008)

med stud said:
			
		

> I absolutely LOVE that the anabola is out of the arts! Looking at the woman with the hammer in the picture, she has large arms, but there is no spandex- clothing revealing ripped biceps! I had a large problem with that in the 3e art, that almost all male specimens of the humanoid kind had body builder muscles. If the art will look like that in the future, I'll be happy as a clam!




Just so long as the art does not start reflecting what the players look like!  That's a bit too much verisimilitude for my tastes.

btw I thought the new pit fiend art on the other article was really quite good and I have not thought the same of some of the other 4ed monsters.  He just looks more dangerous.


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## RangerWickett (Apr 16, 2008)

I'm running an Eberron cop game set in Sharn. The cops are 6th level. They win.

It was okay when it was just stopping petty crimes, or small groups of thugs. But then I decided to have them go up against an organization who is tough and has a lot of resources: Daask, the monstrous crime syndicate, run by an ogre mage, with gnoll, medusa, harpy, and minotaur henchmen. I came up with a series of crimes they'd commit, working toward a secret goal so that I could get this nice "investigate for a while, then finally put the pieces together and crack the case" feel.

Instead, after Daask commits one crime, the cops used locate creature (lesser dragonmark of finding) and rode around in a cab until they found a gnoll. They bumrushed the guy, took him captive, and cast suggestion on him:

"Answer all our questions fully and truthfully." 

Gnoll fails his save. They find out where a few of the hide-outs of Daask are, who the next up the totem pole is, where he likes to go, and what his powers are. They also get a sense of what Daask is up to, but the gnoll only knows so much.

I'm okay at this point. Sure, they got a lot more information about the bad guys than I wanted them to have yet, but they're being creative. I'm cool with it.

Then they go to where they know the gnoll leader goes -- a place where he's vulnerable. They use disguise self to get close to him, and they catch him and his cronies by surprise, and take them prisoner. They cast suggestion on the leader, and then learn pretty much the full scoop on Daask's plans.

Now, I have no problem with the PCs winning. That's what they're supposed to do. And they still have to deal with just the raw manpower of Daask, and its leaders, who don't come out to the surface of the city, but instead stay in the tunnels below. So I've still got adventures I can run, even if I have to scrap my original ideas.

But here's the problem. The players ask me, "Why hasn't Daask already been disposed of?"

The Sharn sourcebook sets up Daask as this mobile, hard to pin down group of monster who hide around the city. But in two days, with just a couple of spells and a mere five cops, the Sharn watch has figured out pretty much all they need to know. Now they just need to get support from the military to go root out this terrorist cell.

Of course, I've got tricks up my sleeve. I'm going to have Daask attack the cops at their homes, threaten them, and try to intimidate them to give up. The PCs won't be able to get the rest of the cops on their side, because the cops aren't heroes; they aren't going to risk their lives, especially when Daask usually just terrorizes poor folks. The PCs will be on their own.

So the spells aren't bad, but they change things.

Now if the PCs had scry and teleport, they would already have scrysassinated the leaders of Daask, decapitating the organization so they're no longer a threat. At 6th level I can handle it, but 9th level would drive me nuts.


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## Puggins (Apr 16, 2008)

AZRogue said:
			
		

> So, does anyone see anything game breaking with characters remembering their old encounter and daily powers? The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be a hard line house rule for me.




I can't say whether or not it'll be balanced (I'm betting it won't be), but I've gotta repeat what the martial arts guy said before- you forget old skills awfully, awfully fast once you learn new ones in real life.  Back in college, the accepted term for this was the semesterly "memory dump."  Is that Analog Fields and Waves class related to any classes you're taking this semester?  No?  Okay, then you'll forget about 80% of it halfway through the quarter.  I think I got an A in that class my junior year.  By my senior year I knew what a Smith chart looked like, but couldn't work one if my life depended on it.  Right now I only remember the name because I remember thinking that a Smith Chart looked like something plucked straight out of Ri'Lyeh.


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## drjones (Apr 16, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> But I don't think they will focus much onto it. 3E had epic levels, and how much supplemental material did exist for that? How many epic adventures where published? It might also be notable that the 3.0 Epic Level handbook was integrated in the 3.5 DMG. Maybe they determined the market is just not big enough, and introduced it as a small boon for the few that like it, as a motivation to go 3.5...




I am having a vision of the future.... a blasted hellscape... the internet 2 years from now.. the first video game inspired by 4ed has been released and it's message board is full of posts along the lines of "i am thinking of getting this game, what is the level cap because I want to play a long time"  "You can get up to 30 in DnD but this game goes from 1 to 15" "WHAT??? I can get to 110 in WoW, what a rip off!"


Not that that means they should have levels beyond 30 (they should not, if you have more content you fit it into the existing levels to avoid more bookkeeping for the sake of big numbers) I just wanted to share my horrific vision with you.


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## WyzardWhately (Apr 16, 2008)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> But here's the problem. The players ask me, "Why hasn't Daask already been disposed of?"





Excellent question.  I'd say a good answer is that there's rampant corruption and intimidation in the police force.  The bad guys have access to those same spells.  When the families of their brother cops start to suffer, and they're betrayed by other cops on the take (who they had trusted!) and they get attacked by assassin-doppelgangers who earn their trust and split them up to try and pick them off individually...etc., well, then they'll know why no one has already taken down Daask.

Play _dirty pool_, oh my brother.


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## drjones (Apr 16, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> I think "Sucks to be you" is going to be my answer to a lot of player questions, if I ever run 4e...




They might well feel that way.


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## med stud (Apr 16, 2008)

WyzardWhately said:
			
		

> Excellent question.  I'd say a good answer is that there's rampant corruption and intimidation in the police force.  The bad guys have access to those same spells.  When the families of their brother cops start to suffer, and they're betrayed by other cops on the take (who they had trusted!) and they get attacked by assassin-doppelgangers who earn their trust and split them up to try and pick them off individually...etc., well, then they'll know why no one has already taken down Daask.
> 
> Play _dirty pool_, oh my brother.



That's doable _if_ the police in that town plays by the rules of a Western democracy. In Italy, Mussolini broke the Mafia. Traditionally, the Mafia ran to the hills when the police came and noone dared/wanted to say where they went. Mussolini's men rounded up the Mafia- guys' wives and children, threatening to shoot them if the Mafia-men didn't come to meet them.

The lesson is that if you play as dirty as the criminals, you beat them unless the criminals are stronger. If the criminals are stronger than the authorities, they most likely will be the new authority pretty soon.

I can see Ranger Wicket's problem. He wanted a criminal organization that runs from the cops, not one that makes the cops run from it (correct me if I'm wrong, Wicket).


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## Voss (Apr 16, 2008)

AZRogue said:
			
		

> Utility powers aren't replaced by newer powers. You still remember the ones from before.
> 
> So, does anyone see anything game breaking with characters remembering their old encounter and daily powers? The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be a hard line house rule for me.




If you can use them all?  Certainly, yes.  You will be doing more damage most of the time with added effects.  If their just written down in a wizard's spellbook/fighter's manuever book or what have you, as weird as some of that is conceptually... probably not, as long as your limited to only using 1/2/3/4 per encounter (as appropriate for the level).


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## SteveC (Apr 16, 2008)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> But here's the problem. The players ask me, "Why hasn't Daask already been disposed of?"



I'd give them two answers, one flippant, and the other serious.

The flippant one: watch any police action movie that's ever been made and ask the same question. I just watched Man on Fire last weekend (the one with Denzell Washington). Once he sets his mind to it, he manages to bring down an entire kidnapping crime syndicate operating in Mexico city in about *72 hours*. That's pretty slow: look at old standards like Beverly Hills Cop and Lethal Weapon and see how  much time they spend figuring out the plot.

The serious one: the characters are heroes, and don't spend a lot of time thinking about their future and their lives and families. Taking down an organization with powerful monsters working for it is dangerous. Extremely dangerous to someone with only NPC levels. So while you could go after the big bads and risk your life, why not take out the low-hanging fruit instead? It may be touching on political issues (and thus be a no-no) but I would argue that is how policing works in the real world as well.

So let the characters win and be successful, but over time their opponents will figure out their tricks and come up with countermeasures for them.

--Steve


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## Stormtalon (Apr 16, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> The crap in the backroom is generally superficially magical or cursed. The _Golden Hairpin of illusionary Youth_, The _Jade Mace of Exotic Pleasuring_




That last one -- wouldn't work so well in the campaigns I run (well, at least not with my group).  There's always one character who'd enjoy that item far, far too much.


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## Spatula (Apr 16, 2008)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I'm running an Eberron cop game set in Sharn. The cops are 6th level. They win.
> 
> It was okay when it was just stopping petty crimes, or small groups of thugs. But then I decided to have them go up against an organization who is tough and has a lot of resources: Daask, the monstrous crime syndicate, run by an ogre mage, with gnoll, medusa, harpy, and minotaur henchmen. I came up with a series of crimes they'd commit, working toward a secret goal so that I could get this nice "investigate for a while, then finally put the pieces together and crack the case" feel.
> 
> ...



All gnolls in Sharn are Daask flunkies?  That seems like a huge coincidence, especially since one of the Dragonmark Houses uses them as mercenaries.  Anyway, I don't think the city guard would fare very well down in the cramped tunnels of the Cogs, even if they knew where Daask's headquarters were.  And how do they stop an invisible, gaseous ogre mage mastermind from escaping?  At best they can only set the organization back some by killing their muscle, taking heavy losses in the process.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Apr 16, 2008)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> But here's the problem. The players ask me, "Why hasn't Daask already been disposed of?"




This is a great question.  Luckily, you are playing Eberron and the answer is built into the setting:  6th level characters are elite.

Very few people in Sharn have access to the same kind of power and resources that 6th level characters have, and even fewer would be willing to risk those power and resources on a crime syndicate.  I would bet that almost no one in the Sharn police force has the kind of skill that they have.  Subverting an organization with _suggestion_ and _disguise self_ and so forth, is the excpetion, not the rule.  And as others have said, just having the information isn't enough to simply solve the problem; you have to actually _solve_ it.  How many police units of 1st-3rd level _warriors_ would it take to bring down a crime syndicate chock full of ogres, gnolls and minotaurs?  The answer is _a lot_.  And it's not as if Daask is the only gig in town; plenty of other crime happening that needs to be policed.  The justice system is about resource management after all.

Or you could do what I would do; let the PCs attempt to take down the whole organization.  They could very well succeed.  Only now instead of one consolidated monster gang, you've got several running around the city.  Gang wars.  Could you imagine a bunch of minotaurs duking it out with a pack of gnolls in the streets?  It'd be chaos.  So congratulations, you've destroyed Daask and just made things a helluva lot worse for Sharn!


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## Stalker0 (Apr 16, 2008)

One thing also to consider with damage is while the amount may not directly increase, at higher levels you will be doing more damaging powers more frequently.

For example, a 1st level character might have 1 encounter power that deals 2[W] + ability mod.

At 10th level, you may have 3 powers that do 2[W] + ability mod. So even though the encounter powers don't do any more damage than the 1st level one did (except when including magic weapons and the fact your ability scores may have increased) you have more of them, so overall you are doing more damage per encounter.


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## lukelightning (Apr 16, 2008)

WyzardWhately said:
			
		

> That said, the idea of Angela Lansbury as some kind of Paladin/Master Inquisitor is _delightful._




Are you kidding? She's a nefarius evil mastermind. All of those murders were secretly orchestrated by her.  How else would she "just happen" to be the area of a murder week after week.


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## Dragonblade (Apr 16, 2008)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> Are you kidding? She's a nefarius evil mastermind. All of those murders were secretly orchestrated by her.  How else would she "just happen" to be the area of a murder week after week.




Hmm, now that you mention it, that is rather suspicious....


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## Alraiis (Apr 16, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> OK. But keep in mind that the Paladin Smites article is 3 months older than the Rogue article.
> Things might have changed.
> 
> "Dexterity modifier damage" seems pretty clear and straightforward  to me.




"Dexterity modifier damage" is clear and straightforward only if it means what it used to in 3.5.  Looking at stat blocks, however, seems to suggest very strongly that the modifier itself scales with level, which means the damage does as well.

For instance, the Malebranche's Wisdom is listed as "19 (+15)".  A base score of 19 gives a base modifier of +4 (just like in 3.x).  Then half its level (22/2 = 11) is added for a total of +15.  So a 22nd level rogue with a Dex of 19 would have that same +15 modifier; whereas a 1st level rogue with a Dex of 19 would only have a +4.  Thus, damage scales with level to the extent that abilitity score modifiers increase with level.  This would fit with the vague information in the Paladin article, without contradicting the specific language in the rogue article.


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## robertliguori (Apr 16, 2008)

Stormtalon said:
			
		

> Oh, good god, yes.  Please sir, may I have some more?  Hmmm, alternately:
> 
> "Think ye that this will grant all which you desire?  It may not end as ye wish.  I could tell ye the tale of a young woman many years ago who acted as ye.  A woman who found herself tied by fate to the object of her murderous greed and bound to its wishes.  I ask ye, then -- would ye take her place?  If ye would then swing true -- I tire of this curse."




Fighter: "Sorc, detect magic on her, if you please."
Sorceror: "Uh, yeah.  Magic.  Strong magic.  Necromancy.  Hey..."
Fighter: "OK, so tell us about this curse thing.  What happens if someone jumps off a cliff, kills you on the way down, and then dies on impact?  Does the curse die with him?"
DM: "...Uhh..."
Gypsy: "Why, would ye know the details of the evil that vexes me?  Has pity at my plight stayed your hands?"
Fighter: "Oh, no, we're still going to kill you on general principle.  But we've found that we can reap great rewards from helping people achieve certain difficult and complicated ends."
Gypsy: "Do these ends include not dying?"
Fighter: "Those ends we don't help with, as a matter of fact."
Gypsy: "Then listen well, that I may have the satisfaction of seeing the object of my ruin laid low, even as I take my own last breath."
Fighter: "That's the spirit!"
Gypsy: "Yes.  Go north for three days, to the Barrow of the Forgotten Dooms-"
Fighter: "Sorcy, take notes."

*Later, in the domain of the Raven Queen*
Ghost of Fighter: "So, in retrospect, we should stop taking quests from people after we tell them we're going to kill them."
Sorceror: "Yeah.  Let's go with that."


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## Revinor (Apr 16, 2008)

Alraiis said:
			
		

> Looking at stat blocks, however, seems to suggest very strongly that the modifier itself scales with level, which means the damage does as well.




It is certainly not true for monster. They get half level to ability checks, but not to damage caused by attacks. We know that PCs and monsters are using different rules - but certain basics like 1/2 lvl mods to attack/defenses, hp progression etc are still quite similar, so I doubt that there will be so basic difference here. Look at pit fiend melee damage and decide if you want your wizard to deal same damage with dagger swing on 20th level.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 16, 2008)

Alraiis said:
			
		

> "Dexterity modifier damage" is clear and straightforward only if it means what it used to in 3.5.  Looking at stat blocks, however, seems to suggest very strongly that the modifier itself scales with level, which means the damage does as well.
> 
> For instance, the Malebranche's Wisdom is listed as "19 (+15)".  A base score of 19 gives a base modifier of +4 (just like in 3.x).  Then half its level (22/2 = 11) is added for a total of +15.  So a 22nd level rogue with a Dex of 19 would have that same +15 modifier; whereas a 1st level rogue with a Dex of 19 would only have a +4.  Thus, damage scales with level to the extent that abilitity score modifiers increase with level.  This would fit with the vague information in the Paladin article, without contradicting the specific language in the rogue article.



That's a possibility. 
All we need to be sure is a high level sample character.


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## Kordeth (Apr 16, 2008)

Alraiis said:
			
		

> "Dexterity modifier damage" is clear and straightforward only if it means what it used to in 3.5.  Looking at stat blocks, however, seems to suggest very strongly that the modifier itself scales with level, which means the damage does as well.




Actually, it's _highly_ unlikely that the ability score modifier is directly scaled and far more likely that you simply get a bonus equal to 1/2 your level on certain rolls. Whether one of those rolls is damage for PCs remains to be seen, but unless you're suggesting that a 30th level rogue can trick someone into "stumbling" over 100 feet, or a fighter can throw down 20 extra damage without making an attack roll every round, I don't think you can say the stat modifier scales with level.


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## Alraiis (Apr 16, 2008)

Kordeth said:
			
		

> Actually, it's _highly_ unlikely that the ability score modifier is directly scaled and far more likely that you simply get a bonus equal to 1/2 your level on certain rolls. Whether one of those rolls is damage for PCs remains to be seen, but unless you're suggesting that a 30th level rogue can trick someone into "stumbling" over 100 feet, or a fighter can throw down 20 extra damage without making an attack roll every round, I don't think you can say the stat modifier scales with level.




It's a possibility, anyway.  I'm only saying we don't know what we don't know.  I'll admit the 20-square rogue "shove" you describe is a bit silly, but on the other hand it doesn't seem entirely out of line for the god-confronting 30th level characters.


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## Hella_Tellah (Apr 16, 2008)

Alraiis said:
			
		

> "Dexterity modifier damage" is clear and straightforward only if it means what it used to in 3.5.  Looking at stat blocks, however, seems to suggest very strongly that the modifier itself scales with level, which means the damage does as well.
> 
> For instance, the Malebranche's Wisdom is listed as "19 (+15)".  A base score of 19 gives a base modifier of +4 (just like in 3.x).  Then half its level (22/2 = 11) is added for a total of +15.  So a 22nd level rogue with a Dex of 19 would have that same +15 modifier; whereas a 1st level rogue with a Dex of 19 would only have a +4.  Thus, damage scales with level to the extent that abilitity score modifiers increase with level.  This would fit with the vague information in the Paladin article, without contradicting the specific language in the rogue article.




I think you're misreading it.  The parenthetical figure is obviously (Ability-10)/2+(level)/2, but I don't think that indicates that all rolls with that particular ability have that hefty bonus.  I think the figure is there to remind you of what the creature rolls on untrained skills tied to that ability.


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## small pumpkin man (Apr 16, 2008)

Alraiis said:
			
		

> "Dexterity modifier damage" is clear and straightforward only if it means what it used to in 3.5.  Looking at stat blocks, however, seems to suggest very strongly that the modifier itself scales with level, which means the damage does as well.
> 
> For instance, the Malebranche's Wisdom is listed as "19 (+15)".  A base score of 19 gives a base modifier of +4 (just like in 3.x).  Then half its level (22/2 = 11) is added for a total of +15.  So a 22nd level rogue with a Dex of 19 would have that same +15 modifier; whereas a 1st level rogue with a Dex of 19 would only have a +4.  Thus, damage scales with level to the extent that abilitity score modifiers increase with level.  This would fit with the vague information in the Paladin article, without contradicting the specific language in the rogue article.



If this was true, the bit talking about higher level characters wouldn't say "calculate your ... Armor Class, defenses, initiative, base attack bonuses and damage bonuses, and skill modifiers.", because they'd allready be calculated, they'd allready be a part of the stat, it would also mean the term "base attack bonus" probably wouldn't exist.


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## shilsen (Apr 17, 2008)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> But here's the problem. The players ask me, "Why hasn't Daask already been disposed of?"
> 
> The Sharn sourcebook sets up Daask as this mobile, hard to pin down group of monster who hide around the city. But in two days, with just a couple of spells and a mere five cops, the Sharn watch has figured out pretty much all they need to know. Now they just need to get support from the military to go root out this terrorist cell.
> 
> ...




Sounds to me like you're being way easy on your PCs. Here's a situation that actually happened in my game. Four 11th level PCs (all very buff, with especially high stats and wealth equivalent to that recommended for 13th level characters) attack a Daask drug den for sh*ts and giggles. This Daask drug den is well-defended, with the presence of a raiding party that is going to attack a Boromar holding, but still only has an Adept8, two ogre Bbn1/Ftr2s and a bunch of elite gnolls (3 lvls each, so CR 4s). 

The result? Two captured PCs (one going below -10) and two wounded PCs fleeing in terror, with the captured ones having to make an agreement to not bother Daask in order to get out alive.

It's not the level of your spells - it's what you do with them


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## Alraiis (Apr 17, 2008)

small pumpkin man said:
			
		

> If this was true, the bit talking about higher level characters wouldn't say "calculate your ... Armor Class, defenses, initiative, base attack bonuses and damage bonuses, and skill modifiers.", because they'd allready be calculated, they'd allready be a part of the stat, it would also mean the term "base attack bonus" probably wouldn't exist.




Again, I admit I may well be wrong.  The whole basis of my theory comes from my own pre-conceived 3rd Edition assumptions (namely, that the number in the parentheses is an ability modifer and that monsters and PCs use the same rules for modifiers).

However, these things wouldn't "already be calculated," as you'd still have to add bonuses from race, class, or feat selection, as well as magic items.  That's why it's near the end of the process.


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## hong (Apr 17, 2008)

WyzardWhately said:
			
		

> I get pretty tired of GMs complaining that this spell or that spell "ruins their plot."  You know what the solution to that is?  Don't have a plot.  Have compelling NPCs and organizations and whatnot in the world who are trying to do varying things.  Trap the PCs in the middle and let them make their own decisions, and find their own solutions.  If you need the characters to follow your plot, or else everything is going to be "ruined," then _go write a novel._
> 
> I cannot count how many GMs I've seen try to bring the hammer down on the PCs at every turn to preserve some half-assed "story" that wouldn't have held up in a ThunderCats episode.



 Plot has nothing to do with it. You can replace "ruin my plot" with "destroy the challenge" and the problem would be exactly the same.


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## DandD (Apr 17, 2008)

Well, depends if you consider "destroy the challenge" being equal as "overcome the challenge"... I wouldn't try to preserve any plot at all, and if you're going to play 4th edition, they make it clear that at paragon and epic level, those are exactly the ressources the player characters are presumed to have, and one should account for. 

My advice is to simply follow on.


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## Henry (Apr 17, 2008)

Alraiis said:
			
		

> However, these things wouldn't "already be calculated," as you'd still have to add bonuses from race, class, or feat selection, as well as magic items.  That's why it's near the end of the process.




...and the ability score increases, which WOULD increase damage, if it were in STR. We still don't have a definitive on the "+1/2 level to dmg" thing.


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## breschau (Apr 17, 2008)

I'm so glad that WotC learned something from WoW. Just like in previous editions of D&D, WoW has far too many spells at higher levels. Yes, spells are upgraded as you gain levels, but there are just too many of them.

I love that you replace lower level powers with higher level ones. It makes things so much simpler and straight forward. In a given encounter you're not having to look up the effects of a massive amount of spells which you should cast. You have the same spells for a few levels, then swap out a lower level one, you have those for a few levels, lather, rinse, repeat.

I imagine it would be so much easier to know exactly what you can do. Rituals I'm sure are a different story, but still.

This makes me so happy.


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## Alraiis (Apr 17, 2008)

On second thought, you folks must be right.  Ability modifiers don't go up with the 1/2 level bonus; looking at the war devil's stats, his claw and trident are clearly getting his +8 Str modifier (27/2-5) instead of the +19 that follows the Str score.

After all, a scaling modifier would make the ability score increases kind of underwhelming.  Without it, boosting the base score with those increases is the only way to increase the modifier to damage or power secondary effects.

The 27 (+19) notation is still fairly bizzare to me, though.  How often does that +19 come up?

(I'm getting way off topic, to boot.  I'm not even talking about the tier excerpt anymore!)


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## ashockney (Apr 17, 2008)

I have to say it.  

Kudos to the WoTC crew on the EXCELLENT preview.  At last!  I'm loving it.

Kudos on the content.  

Powers/abilities, for all classes, that are relatively easy to manage in number.  

Outstanding all around.  

Game on!


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## Kordeth (Apr 17, 2008)

Alraiis said:
			
		

> The 27 (+19) notation is still fairly bizzare to me, though.  How often does that +19 come up?




Any time the War Devil needs to make a skill check that isn't Intimidate.


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## Quickleaf (Apr 17, 2008)

*Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies*

So, judging by the chart, Paragon Paths & Epic Destinies don't provide many powers. Is this right? It doesn't make much sense, for example, that an Epic Destiny provides just a Utility power at 26th. Have there been other bits released about paragon paths/epic destinies to fill in the gaps?


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## DandD (Apr 17, 2008)

Nope, we know nothing about Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies. Perhaps they'll release some information about it later, but for now, nada.


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## Shroomy (Apr 17, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> Nope, we know nothing about Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies. Perhaps they'll release some information about it later, but for now, nada.




On another thread, Bart Caroll said that they would be going over Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies in the next two weeks.


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## A'koss (Apr 17, 2008)

Henry said:
			
		

> ...and the ability score increases, which WOULD increase damage, if it were in STR. We still don't have a definitive on the "+1/2 level to dmg" thing.



I do recall WotC saying early on in the 4e previews that they weren't going this route.


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## Steely Dan (Apr 17, 2008)

After looking at all of the 4th Ed monsters we have seen so far, the rogue powers, and the spells, I am pretty sure that 1/2 level is not added to damage.

Instead you will have things such as 2 [W] + Dex modifier and other goodies.

When you see the term "Dex vs. AC", that is the number in parenthesis after the score, when you see the term "+ Dex modifier" that is the pure bonus from the score.

…I think.


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## jasin (Apr 17, 2008)

shilsen said:
			
		

> Sounds to me like you're being way easy on your PCs. Here's a situation that actually happened in my game. Four 11th level PCs (all very buff, with especially high stats and wealth equivalent to that recommended for 13th level characters) attack a Daask drug den for sh*ts and giggles. This Daask drug den is well-defended, with the presence of a raiding party that is going to attack a Boromar holding, but still only has an Adept8, two ogre Bbn1/Ftr2s and a bunch of elite gnolls (3 lvls each, so CR 4s).
> 
> The result? Two captured PCs (one going below -10) and two wounded PCs fleeing in terror, with the captured ones having to make an agreement to not bother Daask in order to get out alive.



I'm dying to know the details.


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## Cirex (Apr 17, 2008)

breschau said:
			
		

> I'm so glad that WotC learned something from WoW. Just like in previous editions of D&D, WoW has far too many spells at higher levels. Yes, spells are upgraded as you gain levels, but there are just too many of them.
> 
> I love that you replace lower level powers with higher level ones. It makes things so much simpler and straight forward. In a given encounter you're not having to look up the effects of a massive amount of spells which you should cast. You have the same spells for a few levels, then swap out a lower level one, you have those for a few levels, lather, rinse, repeat.
> 
> ...




Well, I disagree.

This is what a holy paladin uses while raiding:
-Cleanse.
-Flash of Light (VERY often)
-Holy Light.
-Holy Shock (since it was buffed at 2.4).
-Concentration aura.
-Bubble when required.

This is what a retribution paladin uses while raiding:
-Crusader Strike.
-Judgement of Blood/Command.
-Judgement.

This is what a destruction warlock uses while raiding:
-Shadow bolt.


There are not too many of them. The spells you used at low level are probably the same you will be using at high level. Yes, there are new spells, but many are just situational/utility.


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## neceros (Apr 17, 2008)

I don't believe Damage will increase with level, directly.

Hitpoints do not scale with level in the way that AC and BAB do. Since everyone tends to get a different number of hitpoints per level, it would be very difficult to have damage scale up per level without forcing the differences between classes to become so close together to become meaningless.

In other words, Damage scales with powers, not level. Because Hitpoints are not a universal scale yet (Meaning, every class gets their own hitpoint totals) Damage shouldn't scale universally, either.


Hope that made sense.


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## Steely Dan (Apr 17, 2008)

neceros said:
			
		

> I don't believe Damage will increase with level, directly.
> 
> Hitpoints do not scale with level in the way that AC and BAB do. Since everyone tends to get a different number of hitpoints per level, it would be very difficult to have damage scale up per level without forcing the differences between classes to become so close together to become meaningless.
> 
> ...





It did to me – I'm with ya.


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## Mentat55 (Apr 17, 2008)

I wish I could find the Podcast or reference, but one of the designers said that you get ways of increasing the number of damage dice you roll (rather than a static bonus, like the 1/2 level modifier).  Perhaps the designer was referring to the bump in damage done with at-will powers at 21st level, or unlocking more powerful encounter and daily powers, but I understood it as an augmentation of your basic attack.

Does anyone else remember this?

EDIT: D&D Podcast #20, apparently.


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## Vempyre (Apr 17, 2008)

Cirex said:
			
		

> This is what a destruction warlock uses while raiding:
> -Shadow bolt. -Incinerate




Couldn't help myself


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## Steely Dan (Apr 17, 2008)

Mentat55 said:
			
		

> I wish I could find the Podcast or reference, but one of the designers said that you get ways of increasing the number of damage dice you roll (rather than a static bonus, like the 1/2 level modifier).  Perhaps the designer was referring to the bump in damage done with at-will powers at 21st level, or unlocking more powerful encounter and daily powers, but I understood it as an augmentation of your basic attack.
> 
> Does anyone else remember this?





Yep, at 21st level certain at-will attacks bump up to 2 [W], and even certain 1st level powers grant 2 [W].

I've also seen 3 [W].


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## DandD (Apr 17, 2008)

I also think that damage increase works by 'upping' the dice used. So, if for example you're using an at-will attack with a great sword with 2d8+x damage at heroic tier, you will do 2d10+x damage later perhaps at paragon level, while at epic, you also get one extra dice, and another increase in dice type, and then, you're going to do 3d12+x with it. That's a damage that scales somehow with levels, but not all too much to make hitpoints meaningless. Of course, you might need to take a feat or so to increase the dice type for damage.


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## Steely Dan (Apr 17, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> I also think that damage increase works by 'upping' the dice used. So, if for example you're using an at-will attack with a great sword with 2d8+x damage at heroic tier, you will do 2d10+x damage later perhaps at paragon level, while at epic, you also get one extra dice, and another increase in dice type, and then, you're going to do 3d12+x with it.




Yep, that too, just like when the 4th Ed Rogue uses shurikens they bump up to the next damage dice.

Fighters probably have the same thing with other weapons.


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## shilsen (Apr 17, 2008)

jasin said:
			
		

> I'm dying to know the details.



 Here's the relevant post from my story hour:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3244643#post3244643


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 17, 2008)

Hey there! 



			
				DandD said:
			
		

> That thing's called the Sword of Omens. It granted sight beyond sight. And it was handy in calling sexy cheetah-and-puma-girl reinforcements. Or tiger-boys, if you were into that.




Brings back some memories...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qd_IsxgAf8

...ah Cheetara.


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## DandD (Apr 17, 2008)

The funny thing is, in the very first episode, they were all nude...


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## Primal (Apr 17, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Forgotten Realms pre 4E has all the answers. (If they didn't help you for FR - like me - they won't help you with your oracle, either.)
> 
> 
> Thanks, for two reasons:
> ...




In FR, his defenses may indeed be formidable (just take a look at all the Volo's Guides). Often wands triggered at will, clever traps, animated weapons and constructs (golems). And it's not just merchants dealing in magic items -- armorers, weaponsmiths and jewelers (for example) all have these defenses at their shops. I'm guessing it's due to PCs in Ed's first campaigns trying to rob and/or slay them (and even each other).


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## occam (Apr 17, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> I think there ARE higher level At-Will powers because all At-Will powers we've seen so far have a Level in their description, such as "Magic Missile   Wizard Attack *1*"




I think that's just because all powers have a level. For example, we've seen level 6, 10, and 16 wizard utility powers, even though there are no utility powers in between those levels. They could've called those 2nd-, 3rd-, and 4th- level utility spells, but they decided to label all powers (including at-will) with levels according to when PCs can take them. I wouldn't assume that because all at-will powers are level 1, that means there are higher-level at-will powers.


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## HeinorNY (Apr 17, 2008)

occam said:
			
		

> I think that's just because all powers have a level. For example, we've seen level 6, 10, and 16 wizard utility powers, even though there are no utility powers in between those levels. They could've called those 2nd-, 3rd-, and 4th- level utility spells, but they decided to label all powers (including at-will) with levels according to when PCs can take them. I wouldn't assume that because all at-will powers are level 1, that means there are higher-level at-will powers.



That's a possibility, but if you take a look at the pregens, there lots of powers without a level on it. And if all at-wills are level 1 and only attainable at level 1, there is really no reason to put a level on them.


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## occam (Apr 17, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> That's a possibility, but if you take a look at the pregens, there lots of powers without a level on it. And if all at-wills are level 1 and only attainable at level 1, there is really no reason to put a level on them.




The pregens don't have any class powers without a level listed. The things without levels are feats, class features (not powers), or racial powers.

I agree there may be no reason to list a level with at-will powers, other than consistency.


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 17, 2008)

Hey there! 



			
				Gargazon said:
			
		

> As gods are level 37 solo monsters (apparently) I don't think this will be the case.
> 
> Besides, what would be the BBEG at level 40?........




*Immortal Tier (31-40)

Adventures:* Immortal adventures are epoch events, with both widespread and lasting consequences that can reshape planar geography. Immortal characters explore the minds of dreaming deities, make war on pantheons, and tread the dark corners of the universe where they battle the savage gigantes, otherworldly alien intelligences like the dreaded world flayers, the terrible four horsemen of the apocalypse, soul-thirsty demiliches, insidious ancient baatorians and godslayers such as the feared Ma Yuan. The dragons they encounter are the gods and goddesses of their kind, like Tiamat herself.

*Sidereal Tier (41-50)

Adventures:* Sidereal adventures can involve the fate of the universe with reality being altered or possibly destroyed by those ultimately victorious. Sidereal characters venture in not only interdimensional space, but also in time where they battle savage cyberdemons, the ferocious Magog, time policing inevitables, unchained evil primordials, entropic umbrals, and even the right hands of fate itself; the calculating intelligibles. They might face an awesome space dragon in whose wake planets perish.

*Primordial Tier (51-60)

Adventures:* Primordial adventures go beyond time and space, encompassing both negative and higher dimensions where sentient realities populate super-universes. Primordial characters search for answers beyond the universe itself, where they encounter savage anomalies, ferocious infinitaurs, fearless neutronium golems, anti-beings from negative dimensions and even retired supreme beings. Universe devouring interdimensional dragons, such as quasar dragons seek to erase you from reality.

Something like that.


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## Cirex (Apr 17, 2008)

For mechanical purposes, the DM is considerated level 66 (for the Primordial tier).


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## DandD (Apr 17, 2008)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey there!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like that german scifi-franchise, Perry Rhodan.


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## Surgoshan (Apr 17, 2008)

*Girl Tier (61+)*
Go get laid.


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## D'karr (Apr 17, 2008)

Surgoshan said:
			
		

> *Girl Tier (61+)*
> Go get laid.




Yeah, only in a fantasy game...


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## Ashardalon (Apr 18, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> Sounds like that german scifi-franchise, Perry Rhodan.



 I didn't bribe DandD to say that, UK, honest.


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## Amakar (Apr 18, 2008)

*Surprised*

Wow, alot of chatter here and only passing mention to one of the greatest things implied.

*No feats needed for paragon paths!!* Goodbye shoehorns, goodbye mostly human options. Welcome back flexibility!


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## WhatGravitas (Apr 18, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> Sounds like that german scifi-franchise, Perry Rhodan.



There are people knowing Perry Rhodan? Outside Germany?

Cheers, LT.


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## Lizard (Apr 18, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> There are people knowing Perry Rhodan? Outside Germany?
> 
> Cheers, LT.




I know it mostly in the form of "This makes Perry Rhodan look like literature".


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