# Ranged Opportunity Attacks?



## chorolus (May 3, 2010)

I'm working on a bit of an experimental character for my wife to play...one who focuses on ranged thrown weapons. Most likely going to be a Ranger hybrid class, but we're still debating what to hybridize with...rogue perhaps...

So my question is this: can ranged attacks be made AS opportunity attacks? Can any combination of feats/abilities/powers accomplish this goal? 

Her character concept is that of a ninja-type warrior who wields twin Krull-style dagger/shiruken-like weapons (technically classified as a throwing axe for combat mechanics purposes...the actual appearance of the weapon is pretty much fluff). We're planning to give her the Deadly Axe and Reaving Axe Student/Slayer feats, meaning her throwing (axes) are considered high-crit weapons and every time she crits she also knocks them prone and is granted an opportunity attack if they attempt to stand before the end of her next turn. Realistically speaking, throwing a weapon takes about as much time/reflex ability as swinging one (in my opinion at least), but I'm not sure if there is any way to do so legally in DnD...

Another somewhat related question...can normal weapons be thrown? I.E. throwing a Scimitar, or a Double-Axe, or other weapon around, and treating it as a heavy thrown weapon? I'm imagining her weapons as something like 3-4 medium-weight, sabre-like blades that are connected at the 'handle', and that have some rather nasty/jagged blade edges on them...so mechanic-wise they could possibly be considered a sabre, axe, a light or heavy blade...we're trying to determine if any other weapon-type damage mechanics would be better then the throwing axe class... If we can find a way to perform ranged Opportunity Attacks, then we could call it a heavy blade of some kind, she may be able to toss Heavy Blade Opportunity in the mix to really take advantage of her Twin Strike throwing attacks.

Any thoughts/suggestions? =]

--edit--
Forgot to add...but it's possible that me and our DM are simply misinterpreting the rules regarding OA's...the book mentions that 'actions of opportunity' can include various actions, 'basic attacks' are one of the actions you can take...so strictly speaking is a ranged attack a 'basic attack'?


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## Obryn (May 3, 2010)

The Sharpshooter Ranger PP has a class feature which lets you make OA's with a ranged weapon.

In general, you can't do so.  If you have a thrown weapon in your hand, you can only make an OA with a melee attack with that weapon.

Throwing 1-H weapons is, I think, a Barbarian PP.  But I could be wrong.

While there are many types of opportunity actions, the only one you can normally take is an opportunity attack.  And that's always a melee basic attack, unless you have a feat, feature, or power that says otherwise.

-O


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## Aulirophile (May 3, 2010)

chorolus said:


> I'm working on a bit of an experimental character for my wife to play...one who focuses on ranged thrown weapons. Most likely going to be a Ranger hybrid class, but we're still debating what to hybridize with...rogue perhaps...
> 
> So my question is this: can ranged attacks be made AS opportunity attacks? Can any combination of feats/abilities/powers accomplish this goal?
> 
> ...



Rules text at the bottom, italicized. 

The only thing that will let you do exactly what you describe is MCing or Hybriding with Seeker, and taking the Seven Fates Archer Paragon Path. The level 16 feature will make it work. 

Remember that opportunity _attacks _are a kind of _opportunity action. _But an Opportunity Attack is a specific thing, as outlined below.

_Melee Basic Attack: An opportunity attack is a melee basic attack.

Able  to Attack: You can’t make an opportunity attack unless you are able to  make a melee basic attack and you can see your enemy._


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## Aulirophile (May 3, 2010)

Obryn said:


> The Sharpshooter Ranger PP has a class feature which lets you make OA's with a ranged weapon.
> 
> In general, you can't do so.  If you have a thrown weapon in your hand, you can only make an OA with a melee attack with that weapon.
> 
> ...



Sharpshooter only works with bows and crossbows. 

You're probably thinking of this Barbarian feat.

*Heroic Tier*
*Prerequisite*: Barbarian
*Benefit*:  You can use any one-handed off-hand weapon as a heavy thrown weapon.  Normal range for weapons you wield this way is 5 squares, and long range  is 10 squares.


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## chorolus (May 3, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> Rules text at the bottom, italicized.
> 
> The only thing that will let you do exactly what you describe is MCing or Hybriding with Seeker, and taking the Seven Fates Archer Paragon Path. The level 16 feature will make it work.
> 
> ...




That's what I thought, the book does state 'melee' attack specifically but a few of our players were arguing that melee and ranged in this case were interchangable... 

So, the Sharpshooter Ranger PP, as well as a MC/hybrid Seeker could pull this combo off though? So pretty much, she'd be a bit sub-optimal till lvl 16? ...if our game even gets that far...many I've been in so far have fizzled out around lvl 10ish, lol.

So far as my other question regarding tossing weapons around, anyone? I can't seem to find anything in the Players Handbook, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place(s).


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## Aulirophile (May 3, 2010)

chorolus said:


> That's what I thought, the book does state 'melee' attack specifically but a few of our players were arguing that melee and ranged in this case were interchangable...
> 
> So, the Sharpshooter Ranger PP, as well as a MC/hybrid Seeker could pull this combo off though? So pretty much, she'd be a bit sub-optimal till lvl 16? ...if our game even gets that far...many I've been in so far have fizzled out around lvl 10ish, lol.
> 
> So far as my other question regarding tossing weapons around, anyone? I can't seem to find anything in the Players Handbook, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place(s).



I think they'd just count as improvised thrown weapons, all of which are no proficiency bonus 1d4. Terrible, in other words. That chart is on PHB 219.

Oh! Heavy Blades can get the Farbond Spellblade magic enchantment. Acts as a heavy thrown weapon. Locks you into that one enchant, of course.


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## Mentat55 (May 3, 2010)

You could go a thrown weapon seeker.  I think they are Wis/Str focused, and if you use heavy thrown weapons, you could make a melee basic attack with the throwing weapon in your hand when you get the chance to take an OA -- and the rest of the time you could make ranged attacks as a seeker.


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## Nightson (May 3, 2010)

Give her a special houserule feat, problem solved.


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## AbdulAlhazred (May 3, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> Sharpshooter only works with bows and crossbows.
> 
> You're probably thinking of this Barbarian feat.
> 
> ...




Right, this will work well, it just requires the player to devote 2 feats, which really isn't all that terrible since the barbarian MC feat gives you some useful stuff anyway. 

In general the problem with ranged OAs is they would just be insanely effective. I could see creating a special variation of a power that allows an RBA against a foe that is hit with it, but its going to have to be at least an encounter power. Being able to do that round after round is just too good.


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## chorolus (May 3, 2010)

It may be an effective combat build...eventually...but once again, it doesn't seem like the build would be significantly more effective then any other typical Striker-character, and would probably actually be much weaker than others until until lvl 16ish when she gets her OA gravy. 

Another part of her character concept was the idea that she would MC as a swordmage and take the Improved Swordbond, so that (true to the Krull-like spirit of the character) whenever she throws the weapons, they return to her hands again after the attack. To prevent this ranged Opportunity Attack focus from being too effective, we could make her weapon-return action count as a minor action or some such--so that she can only make an OA once per round, whereas melee characters don't really have a set numerical limit per round...well they can make an OA once per enemy turn, so I guess they can make as many OA's as there are enemies, but under normal circumstances you are only ever in melee range of one, occasionally 2-3ish foes at a time, so one per round would scale fairly by my book.


---


Well, so far we've got a Ranger that is probably hybridized as a Seeker (which Seekers seem to play similar to a ranged Ranger anyways from the looks of things in the character builder). She could start with the Windrise Ports background, allowing her to MC as both a Swordmage and a Barbarian--allowing her to take the Improved Swordbond and off-hand throwing feats. What's the name of that Barbarian feat? I can't find it in the feat list. 

Seems like a pretty fun character: she would be able to use ranged Twin Strikes(even without the Barbarian feat, so long as she uses off-hand throwing weapons right, like Throwing Axes?), and once she hits lvl 16 she would be able to get the Ranged Opportunity Attack feature from her Seeker PP.


---


So far as deciding what her weapon-type could be, I found this quote from the following website:

Weapons :: d20srd.org
"*Thrown Weapons*
Daggers, clubs, shortspears,  spears, darts, javelins,  throwing axes, light hammers, tridents,  shuriken,  and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength  modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash  weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to  be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in  the Range Increment column on Table:  Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack  roll...Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet"


Now, it looks like the website is more of a DnD 3x resource, so some of it is probably incorrect information so far as 4E is concerned...But basically, she could use a weapon with the throwing subtype and is classified as a light blade, i.e. shiruken/dagger/boomarang, or a throwing axe, with no penalties. Or she could attempt to use a weapon that 'isn't designed for throwing' and impose a -4 to her attack rolls as a penalty? Is that rule the same for 4E?


If that's the case, things could get pretty nasty if she threw a Khopesh around, allowing her to use HBO and Deadly Axe, along with the Reaving Axe Student/Master feats. Granted, she would be attacking with a -4 to-hit deficit, but if she hits Weapon Expertise early on, and keeps her attacking stat(Str or Dex) maxed as much as possible, she could come close to countering that penalty...she could also get the feats that grant +hit bonuses to Opportunity  Attacks/etc to help with her out too.

--edit--
Realized what a wall-of-text this post looked like and shortened it down a little =p


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## mneme (May 3, 2010)

chorolus, you seem to be misinformed on what "make an OA with a ranged weapon" means.  It doesn't increase your threat range at all -- you -still- only get to make OAs against enemies that draw an OA while adjacent to you!  The only way I know to make ranged OAs effective is to be a Ranger with the Beast Protector feat and a way to make ranged OAs (Sharpshooter, usually) -- which means the enemy draws an OA from you whenever it attacks your beast.  A character with the ability to make ranged OAs and a 1 square threat range is if anything going to make -fewer- OAs than a fighter or another melee character, as they usually won't be in melee.

Additionally, you need to read the 4e rules; they're really important here.  Among other things...all magical throwing weapons return to your hand after you throw them in 4e.  No swordbond needed!

Also, 3.5 resources aren't at all useful for 4e -- the rules don't have that much in commmon aside from some basic strucutre and rolling a D20 around.


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## chorolus (May 3, 2010)

You're missing that she is going to have the Reaving Axe Slayer feat, which mean that when she crits(melee, or ranged), she knocks them prone and if they try to stand up before her next turn, she can perform an Opportunity Attack on them--if she can do so with a ranged weapon, then she wouldn't have to be adjacent to them. I am glad that you mentioned the Beastmaster Protector feat though, although I forgot to mention it in my last couple posts, I was actually planning to make her a Beastmaster to use her pet as a blocker if nothing else, and that would also be an occasional source of OA's. Every OA counts for a lot--it basically doubles her damage per round when she's able to pull one off =]

I don't believe that every old magical weapon is capable of returning to your hand in 4E though...I could be wrong, but in the few games I've been in, nobody has used such a thing as a rule, and I haven't read it in the handbook. Granted, I haven't read the book cover-to-cover yet, so I might have missed it...but I assure you that I have actually read most of the rules, I'm asking here in the forums about rules that both myself and my group are unfamiliar with, and I can assure you they are not exactly new to DnD, 4E or otherwise... And I wasn't assuming that any of the 3.5 resources would be applicable in 4E--I was asking if there was a parallel rule that I and my group are unaware of in 4E.

--edit--
Realized that I mislabeled the Reaving Axe Slayer feat, calling it 'Reaving Axe Master', fixed the reference in my previous post as well.


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## Obryn (May 3, 2010)

chorolus said:


> You're missing that she is likely going to have the Reaving Axe Slayer feat, which mean that when she crits(melee, or ranged), she knocks them prone and if they try to stand up before her next turn, she can perform an Opportunity Attack on them--if she can do so with a ranged weapon, then she wouldn't have to be adjacent to them.



This sort of thing is exactly why you can't normally make ranged opportunity attacks.  It prevents that kind of abuse.



> I don't believe that every old magical weapon is capable of returning to your hand in 4E though...I could be wrong, but in the few games I've been in, nobody has used such a thing as a rule, and I haven't read it in the handbook. Granted, I haven't read the book cover-to-cover yet, so I might have missed it...but I assure you that I have actually read most of the rules, I'm asking here in the forums about rules that both myself and my group are unfamiliar with, and I can assure you they are not exactly new to DnD, 4E or otherwise... And I wasn't assuming that any of the 3.5 resources would be applicable in 4E--I was asking if there was a parallel rule that I and my group are unaware of in 4E.



It's absolutely there, right where you'd expect it to be - in the section on magic weapons.

-O


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## mneme (May 3, 2010)

Normally, you can only make OAs when someone uses a ranged power or moves without shifting *while in a threatened square*.

Looking at Reaving Axe Slayer, I don't see anything which changes this. 



			
				Reaving Axe Slayer said:
			
		

> Whenever you score a critical hit against an enemy, you also knock that enemy prone, and the first time it stands up before the end of your next turn, it provokes an opportunity attack.




It doesn't say "provokes an opportunity attack from you" -- just "provokes an opportunity attack".  Who do they provoke an oppy from?  Anyone threatening their square, of course.

A character with the ability to make ranged OAs still only threatens squares adjacent to them.


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## chorolus (May 3, 2010)

I'm not looking at 3.5 rules about the OA's provoked by standing up. I'm talking about the REAVING AXE SLAYER feat that allows you to do so...it's stated verbatim in the feat itself.

And I'm sorry if I've offended anyone with my suggestions...I'm not trying to abuse the system Obryn, I'm just trying to make a fun character that can actually compete with the damage/utility that other strikers/dps characters can put out, while adding some gameplay flavor...


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## Mort_Q (May 3, 2010)

Obryn said:


> chorolus said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe that every old magical weapon is capable of returning to your hand in 4E though...
> ...




It's not all magic weapons, just the *thrown* ones (i.e. Light Thrown or Heavy Thrown).  You can throw a Magic Spiked Chain as an improvised weapon if you want (though I can't see why), but it won't come back to you.


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## chorolus (May 3, 2010)

Nice, so magical thrown weapons automatically return to your hand then. That I can believe =]

Saves me from having to multiclass to a swordmage to get that sort of utility out of her thrown weapons too!


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## Mort_Q (May 3, 2010)

_Player's Handbook_, page 232, under *Thrown Weapons*...



			
				PHB 232 said:
			
		

> Any magic light thrown or heavy thrown weapon, from the lowly +1 shuriken to a +6 perfect hunter's spear, automatically returns to its wielder's hand after a ranged attack with the weapon is resolved.
> 
> Catching a returning thrown weapon is free action: if you do not wish (or are unable) to catch the weapon, it falls at your feet in your space.




In case you want the source.


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## chorolus (May 3, 2010)

If she wants to insist on using an atypical throwing weapon, i.e. a Sabre or something, what are the rules on throwing weapons that aren't specifically 'thrown' weapons within the 4E rules? Someone mentioned above that they would drop down to a 1d4 Improvised Weapon, but the other characteristics of the weapon would remain the same, like High Crit, Brutal, Heavy-Blade, etc?

Someone also mentioned that the Barbarian feat(I'm not sure which one...) would allow her to use any weapon with the Offhand characteristic as a thrown weapon with no penalties too...but what about 'normal' weapons?


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## Mort_Q (May 3, 2010)

chorolus said:


> Someone mentioned above that they would drop down to a 1d4 Improvised Weapon, but the other characteristics of the weapon would remain the same, like High Crit, Brutal, Heavy-Blade, etc?




Nope.  Regardless, an improvised thrown weapon is 1d4, Range 5/10, +0 Prof.  Doesn't matter if it's a rock, or a chair, or a spiked chain.



chorolus said:


> Someone also mentioned that the Barbarian feat(I'm not sure which one...) would allow her to use any weapon with the Offhand characteristic as a thrown weapon with no penalties too...but what about 'normal' weapons?




Hurl Weapon, Primal Power.  No feats that allow you to throw non-off-hand non-thrown weapons as far as I know.  A power or two, if I recall correctly... but no feats.


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## chorolus (May 3, 2010)

I meant, do the weapon qualities other then it's dice size carry over when you throw it. As in, does it count as its weapon class (like axes for the Reaping Axe feats, or Heavy Blade with HBO), and carry over other qualities like high crit, brutal, etc. Or does the fact that it counts as an 'Improvised Weapon' override everything that the weapon comes with?


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## Mort_Q (May 4, 2010)

They lose everything, and gain back only 1d4, Range 5/10, +0 Prof.  So yes, throwing something that isn't meant to be thrown is a pretty desperate move... you'd be better off throwing rocks.


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## chorolus (May 4, 2010)

Hmm...that's a bummer... So I guess the only way to have a non-throwing weapon function as one is via the Farbond Enchantment, if the GM even allows one to show up, lol.


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## AbdulAlhazred (May 4, 2010)

Yup. Basically the character build you're trying for goes against the grain. The rules actually are designed to PREVENT characters from being able to do OAs anywhere on the battlefield and throw super high damage weapons and such.

Its arguable that you may be able to use one or two specific powers and one feat to get something like a limited ranged OA, but the most common reading in all those cases is that you STILL have to be adjacent. The ranger Spitting Cobra Stance power is somewhat of an exception, but is a daily stance power, so its not something you can do all the time.

As opposed to focusing on OAs I think you'll have more success skinning a hand axe, shuriken, or dagger as a chakram and building a character around that. Depending on how capable the character wants to be in melee and other considerations a seeker, ranger, or rogue will work. A pretty good build would be a beast master ranger with Twin Strike and chuck-'n-charge or some variation on that.


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## Aulirophile (May 4, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Its arguable that you may be able to use one or two specific powers and one feat to get something like a limited ranged OA, but the most common reading in all those cases is that you STILL have to be adjacent. The ranger Spitting Cobra Stance power is somewhat of an exception, but is a daily stance power, so its not something you can do all the time.



What? No. If a power says "Provokes an OA" it provokes an OA, being adjacent only matters for the normal provoking rules. _Specific always beats general. _If something says "provokes an OA" then it does, regardless of any other factors. Now whether you can actually take it is entirely differently, you couldn't OA from 4 squares away unless you could make Ranged OAs or had reach 3. Both Sharpshooter (for bows only) and Seven Fates Archer (for all ranged) get around the range issue handily. Go ahead and quote the rule that says you have to be adjacent to make an OA. 

Also Spitting Cobra Stance is now an Immediate Action, not an OA, so it is limited to one attack/round. Was errata'd a long time ago.

EDIT: Just to hammer the point home, if your made-up rule actually existed, Polearm Gamble wouldn't work.


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## chorolus (May 4, 2010)

Too bad there isn't a way to increase your polearm reach beyond the standard 2 square reach...there isn't right? Cause that would be pretty awesome, lol.

Atm, I'm thinking the optimal way to build this character is to focus on axes early on, getting the Reaving Axe feats to inject more OA's on a regular basis--and knocking anything prone is a pretty sweet controller-like ability that would work beautifully with this 'mostly-striker' build. ASAP, she could get the Grounding Shot and Headman's chop feats to be able to hit prone targets normally as well as dealing +5 damage when she does, and she could get some of the mobility/opportunity attack feats like Agile Hunter(+2 to power-related shifts...will stack exceedingly nice with Nimble Strike and Battle-Scarred Vet/Ghostwalker Style), Blade Opportunist/Combat Reflexes, Defensive Mobility/Battle Caster Defense...there are so many options, I think this characters greatest weakness will be a shortage of feats...but she will have enough to have a very well-rounded style of combat.

Power-wise, I'm definitely getting Twin Strike and Nimble Strike(with the Seeker Hybrid, that means she'll have to be Human), then for her encounter/daily/utility choices she will focus on powers that slow/hinder foes, or provide other useful utility abilities, to take advantage of her mobile/ranged focus.

I'm still working on her in the Character Builder, but I'll post her sheet up here once I finish it. 

As soon as the GM allows it (or should I say if....?), she can get a pair of throwing Khopesh with the Farbond Spellblade enchantment, which becomes available as early as lvl 2. Later on around lvl 11, she can pick up HBO then Deadly Axe and a few other critical attack-based feats too. HBO would let her use Twin Strike to fling her weapons around every time she got an OA, which would double her chance to crit and knock stuff down =]

---edit---
Might delay getting HBO, the Reaving Axe feats, and a few other feats till lvl 16ish, when her Seeker PP will let her actually perform ranged OA's... And I also can't seem to find any Seeker multiclass feats, are there any?


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## AbdulAlhazred (May 4, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> What? No. If a power says "Provokes an OA" it provokes an OA, being adjacent only matters for the normal provoking rules. _Specific always beats general. _If something says "provokes an OA" then it does, regardless of any other factors. Now whether you can actually take it is entirely differently, you couldn't OA from 4 squares away unless you could make Ranged OAs or had reach 3. Both Sharpshooter (for bows only) and Seven Fates Archer (for all ranged) get around the range issue handily. Go ahead and quote the rule that says you have to be adjacent to make an OA.
> 
> Also Spitting Cobra Stance is now an Immediate Action, not an OA, so it is limited to one attack/round. Was errata'd a long time ago.
> 
> EDIT: Just to hammer the point home, if your made-up rule actually existed, Polearm Gamble wouldn't work.




There's no 'made up rule', the rule for OAs is that you need to be adjacent. This has already been explained by another poster up thread and unfortunately for your theory it is entirely correct. Spitting Cobra Stance aside, there just isn't any easy way to get OAs anywhere in range. There may be SOME way to do it but its going to come with significant limitations. And yes, SCS is now an IA, its still pretty close to the only way to get anything resembling a ranged OA.

I'd suggest if you have doubts about that take it to the 4e Q&A thread where you can get some fairly good analysis and find out what the official rulings say on the subject. Looking through charops and some of the guides is instructive too.

As I said before, the rules are DESIGNED not to allow characters to constantly OA all over the board. It would be ungodly powerful as its quite trivial to make basic attacks do VERY high damage and a character who can come up with a way to constantly OA is able to achieve huge DPR fairly trivially. This is WHY SCS was nerfed. Its also why Agile Opportunist is trivially abusable (or worthless depending on how you parse it).


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## mneme (May 4, 2010)

Er, yeah.  There's a big difference between Polearm gamble (which is a terrible example, as it never mentions the words "provoke an OA" -- just that you can -make- one) and Reaving Axe Slayer.

Specific beats general -- but only where it actually says anything.

The default for the game is: When something provokes an OA and is in your threat range, you can make an OA if you haven't already made one on this creature's turn.

Whip Crack is a great example of how this works: "*Effect*: Until the start of your next turn, when an enemy within your reach takes an action that provokes opportunity attacks from adjacent enemies, it provokes an opportunity attack from you."  So it doesn't change what provokes at all -- but it overrides the rules that provoking OAs only happens from adjacent enemies.

Now, Reaving Axe Slayer says: Whenever you score a critical hit against an enemy, you also knock that enemy prone, and the first time it stands up before the end of your next turn, it provokes an opportunity attack.

Does it say who it provkes an OA from? No.  So you could read it as "provokes an opportunity attack from all enemies", or "provokes an opportunity attack from you" -- either of which would let you make an OA when it stood up regardless of where you were.  But while that's -reasonable-, it's also clearly wrong; it's more or less a deliberate misreading of the rules.  Yes, in this version of the game (unlike previous ones) they never actually spell out that the default range for "provokes an opporunity attack" is adjacent...until you look at, say, the wording for Threatening Reach: A creature that has threatening reach can make an opportunity attack against any enemy within its reach that provokes an opportunity attack..  Which implies that the game still has a default threat range -- and that that default is still "adjacent".


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## Piratecat (May 4, 2010)

This may be a good time to ask. When the heck do you ever make a ranged basic attack? What provokes one? I swear, I don't think any PC in either of my games have ever needed to make one, while melee basic attacks happen all the time.

What am I missing?


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## Obryn (May 4, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> This may be a good time to ask. When the heck do you ever make a ranged basic attack? What provokes one? I swear, I don't think any PC in either of my games have ever needed to make one, while melee basic attacks happen all the time.
> 
> What am I missing?



A handful of Leader powers, a few Stances, and some class/PP features.

It's a big deal for Seekers and archer rangers, but hardly anyone else.

-O


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## mneme (May 4, 2010)

I think the point of ranged basic attacks is that -if- you build a party around them, you can do some amazing focus fire tricks, as the entire party bombs one guy in a way that's hard to do in melee.

But this was really hard to do in PH1, so people have tended to ignore it (unavoidable for some classes; an Int avenger will never have a good RBA; avoidable for wizards, but why)?

Eagle shamans can give out RBAs like candy, though.  So can some warlord builds.


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## chorolus (May 4, 2010)

I guess I really opened a can of worms here, lol.

For those arguing against ranged OA's, the Seeker PP among others specifically state that you can do it. As for why, as it's been mentioned, classes who focus exclusively on ranged attacks, particularly Seekers who are known for their sub-par dmg(they're a controller NOT a striker anyways).  

Now, the core of this thread has been specifically talking about using throwing axes (skinned and labeled as an exotic self-made ninja-star/Glave type weapon...just using the base weapon for the weapon stats), along with the Reaving Axe Slayer feat, a Ranger-specific feat, which states that it knocks enemies prone and that the fallen provoke OA's when they attempt to stand up--with not a single mention of range or adjacency or any other specifics about how you need to make the OA, nor does it say that only certain powers/etc must be used to obtain that effect. 

This method of injecting OA's into her standard combat tactics may seem overpowered to many of you, but you could say the same thing about a Daggavenger or pretty much any Twin-Strike exploiting character build...guess what? That's what Strikers do: they deal damage, ok? Ranged OA's aside, this character concept is hardly overpowered compared to any other Striker build, it's simply different; against the grain...so what? It's gameplay flavor, not rule abuse/exploitation... I've run some DPS comparisons between how this build should perform and  other Strikers and she is by no means better than very many of them. As I stated above, she will actually be a bit sub-par for the majority of her career, it's only at lvl 16+ that she really starts to come into her own...

Anyways, I digress...I've received most of the answers I was asking about to begin with, and my thanks to those who helped in this thread. Now can everyone else stop arguing already? =p


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## mneme (May 4, 2010)

chorulus, you need to read more carefully.

Nobody's arguing against  OAs with ranged powers/weapons.

What we're arguing against (successfully) is OAs at range.

Nowhere in Seven Fates Archer does it say that, what would it say?  Oh yes: "when a character provokes from adjacent opponents, it also provokes from you".  Instead, it says:



			
				Seven Fates Archer said:
			
		

> *Opportunity Shot (16th level)*: Whenever you can make an opportunity attack, you can make a ranged basic attack in place of a melee basic attack. Your attack doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.




So, when SOMETHING ELSE lets you make an opportunity attack, you can make an RBA instead of an MBA, and it doesn't provoke (why doesn't it provoke? Because YOU ARE EXPECTED TO BE MAKING IT AT MELEE RANGE).

It's very rude to ignore what people actually say and instead take the answers you -want- to hear rather than the ones you're actually getting.  There are "threatening reach" builds that increase melee reach to 3 or 4 for a few turns (enough) and control a huge area.  There are ranged powers that let you make attacks out of turn, some of them dailies that let you do so for the entire encounter.

But no, as yet, there isn't any way to let you make OAs reliably with ranged powers -- the best I could see would be synergy between an eagle shaman and a beastmaster ranger with Beast Protector/Sharpshooter (and trap the enemy between the beast and the spirit, such that they can't get away without shifitng, and they don't want to attack the spirit (bounces off, does pitiful damage) or the beast (draws an OA).

The game is designed to avoid having someone do something like this without spending a daily for the privledge -- that's why all "make a ranged basic attack when..." effect powers are dailies or one round powers, and why all threatening reach powers are dailies or 1 round powers.

Also?  Dagavenger doesn't work any more.  Check out the update.


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## chorolus (May 4, 2010)

Mneme, I respect your opinions but you haven't been very polite in your responses either...I'm trying to prevent this thread from turning into a flame-war, which it seemed like it was at the time...maybe I was wrong. Anyways...

What Seven Fates Archer Path states verbatim is this:

Opportunity Shot(16th level): Whenever you can make an opportunity attack, you can make a ranged basic attack in place of a melee basic attack. Your attack doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.

Now, my (and other members of my group) best interpretation of that description is that you are making a ranged Opportunity Attack. Period. It says that your attack doesn't provoke opportunity attacks in return (whether they come from the one being attacked, or his friends) because your action *is* an OA, it would be a silly never-ending chain of attacks back and forth if ranged OA's provoked OA's as well. Now whether or not Heavy Blade Opportunity will work with this exploit is up for grabs...probably not just simply because of the over-cheese factor.

Neither Opportunity Shot, nor Reaving Axe Slayer state anything about being adjacent to the enemy. You may interpret that to include the assumption that you must be adjacent as per the 'normal' Opportunity Attack rules, but these are not 'normal' OA's. They are OA's specifically provoked by an enemy standing up immediately after being knocked down by the Reaving Axe Slayer feat. Maybe they will errata the feat/Paragon Path to further clarify them, maybe they won't, but as they both are currently stated it could be interpreted either way...


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## Obryn (May 4, 2010)

chorolus said:


> What Seven Fates Archer Path states verbatim is this:
> 
> Opportunity Shot(16th level): Whenever you can make an opportunity attack, you can make a ranged basic attack in place of a melee basic attack. Your attack doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.
> 
> ...



I'll try to go through this bit by bit.

First off, let's look at Opportunity shot.  You're overlooking the key part:



> Opportunity Shot(16th level): *Whenever you can make an opportunity attack*, you can make a ranged basic attack in place of a melee basic attack. Your attack doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.




You first need to be able to make an Opportunity Attack.  How can you do so?  Well, you consult the PHB and look at the requirements.  You have to be adjacent, and have to be able to see your target.  If you fit those requirements, you may make an Opportunity Attack with a ranged weapon, per Opportunity Shot.

Second, let's look at Reaving Axe Slayer.



> Whenever you score a critical hit against an enemy, you also knock that enemy prone, and the first time it stands up before the end of your next turn, it *provokes an opportunity attack*.



I've bolded the key portion.  "Provoking" an opportunity attack is a fairly precise game term.  If something provokes, you may make an Opportunity Attack if you fit all the requirements for doing so.  So... you go back to the rules on OA's, and note that you need to be adjacent, and need to be able to see your target, to make an OA.


If you're going to argue your idiosyncratic interpretation of Opportunity Shot + RAS, you will need to explain why Opportunity Shot can't be used to make OA's on _anyone _ within your weapon's range who provokes an OA by making a Ranged or Area Attack.  After all, those two actions specifically provoke an OA, by the rules, just like standing up after getting Reaving-Axe-Slayered does.  I think it's clear that this isn't the intent behind Opportunity Shot - think of the ramifications for a Seeker with a Greatbow.

-O


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## chorolus (May 4, 2010)

Ok, ok. So maybe our interpretations of RAS and OA's were incorrect. I keep saying our/we by the way because I'm posting on behalf of my entire dnd group, DM included, so saying my postings are 'my idiosyncratic interpretations' seems a little rude...

So the only way someone would be able to issue forth OA's enmasse would be for them to wield a polearm and make generous use of class features/powers to increase their threatening reach. I know of one such power, a daily Swordmage utility power called Giant's Might, which increases their size/reach until the end of the encounter, or if you choose to end it early. Does anyone know of other powers/features/etc have similar effects?


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## Obryn (May 4, 2010)

chorolus said:


> Ok, ok. So maybe our interpretations of RAS and OA's were incorrect. I keep saying our/we by the way because I'm posting on behalf of my entire dnd group, DM included, so saying my postings are 'my idiosyncratic interpretations' seems a little rude...



"Your" works as a plural possessive, too. 



> So the only way someone would be able to issue forth OA's enmasse would be for them to wield a polearm and make generous use of class features/powers to increase their threatening reach. I know of one such power, a daily Swordmage utility power called Giant's Might, which increases their size/reach until the end of the encounter, or if you choose to end it early. Does anyone know of other powers/features/etc have similar effects?



Polearm Master has a Utility Power that (basically) grants Threatening Reach with a reach weapon.  So does the Spiked Chain Expert power-swap feat.

Honestly, even then, your best bet is to get your party to assist you.  OA's work more as a deterrent than as a way to deal extra damage.  A DM doesn't ever need to provoke OA's.  However, if your party has powers like Cause Fear or anything that Dominates, you can force monsters to provoke OA's.

-O


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## mneme (May 4, 2010)

chorolus, we're not having a flame war.  If we -were- having a flame war, you'd see mods here any moment.    We're having a spirited argument.   I'd prefer if you showed better courtesy and clarity -- and yes, how you act is going to influence how you're treated -- but that's another matter.

Part of the problem is that you're not really making clear -where- your disagreement is.

There's no argument (or room for same) on how SFA works (nor on how the Sharpshooter -- which gets this ability with a bow or crossbow at 11th level, works).  -if- you can make an OA, you can make it as a ranged weapon.  So all those OAs you are denied because they're too far away (like the one provoked by Beast Protector) can be made at range -- and normal OAs made at melee can still be made at range.

So unless you think that SFA lets you make an OA on any creature in your penumbra that walks or makes a ranged attack (in which case, you should talk to customer service and present them with your very original interpretation), the disagreement is on how Reaving Axe Slayer works.

As it turns out, the game does not (as I mentioned upthread) have a game definition of "threat range" or any such -- or at least that's not in the compendium.  It probably should, but they've tried to port over that concept without adding new terminology.  So the fact that Reaving Axe Slayer doesn't say what the target provokes an OA from is really a bug in RAS -- there's a legitimate disagreeement (if you've agreed with me up to here) in whether one views RAS as saying "provokes an opportunity attack from all enemies" or "provokes an OA from adjacent enemies."

OTOH, look on today's article on rules updates for a little hint of how Wizards tends to think about these things:



> *GB:* Those are the easiest errors to fix. I remember when _Divine Power_ came out, people looked at _solar wrath_ and wondered how long the effect lasted. Although we (R&D) might take for granted that an encounter power’s effect almost always lasts until the end of the user’s next turn, many players have no way of knowing that, so until we issue an update, people have to guess at how long it lasts.




Ok, so lets look at RAS here.  It doesn't specify who the target provokes OAs from.  "everyone" is clearly -not- the right answer here; it's totally out of scope with similar powers, nor is there a general rule that even vagule implies it.  So the two reasonable answers (and while I favor one, I could really see arguments for either) are:

1. They provoke OAs from -you-.  Look at the Thug Specialist for an example here.  In this case, your buddies standing next to the guy you knocked down wouldn't get an OA from them trying to get up.  But you would.   This is a reasonable ruling if you think they just left some words off the feat.

2. They provoke OAs from adjacent enemies.  Look at how OAs work in general -- nearly all OAs are provoked from adjacent enemies -- Beast Protector and "from you" are pretty much the only example otherwise.  This is a reasonable thing if (like me) you think they'd assumed there was a general rule that you could only react to OAs provoked by adjacent enemies, and so didn't think it needed to be said.

Basically, as written, RAS is a do-nothing feat (they provoke OAs from who?  Well, nobody, since it doesn't say) that requires a table ruling.  If you can talk your GM into letting you use ruling #1, then your build works fine (more or less), and isn't significantly overpowered.  If your GM instead wants to go with #2, that part of the build doesn't work.  And if you're trying to go with "all enemies", your GM -should- slap you down for that, because it's clearly an overpowered misreading of the RAS feat.


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## mneme (May 4, 2010)

Actually, giant sized threat ranges with threatening reach is great (until your GM gets frustrated and starts having the bad guys ready actions, anyway -- no OAs during your turn!).  There are great builds in the charop forum, but pieces include:

Polearm gamble: particularly for a fighter, as if you hit on the OA, they have to stop moving and don't get their attack.

Ways to get threatening reach:
Stoneblessed Utility 12 encounter (1 turn)
Rampant Reach: Barbarian 16 encounter (1 turn)
Form of the Bloodwraith Guardian: warden 16, daily, gives +1 reach and threatening reach
Whip expert multiclass uility (encoutner, 1 turn, requires whip)
Weapon Master's Strike (spear or polearm): target provkes from you when it shifts until eot, at will

FWIW, if you want to make the ranged OA build work, you need to combo it with the rest of the party (in general, party optimization is more fun in 4e than single character optimization).  For instance, if the party also contained a warlord, the warlord could take Viper's Strike (if the target shifts, it provokes an OA from a an ally of your choice) and Diabolic Strategim (if the target attacks you, it provokes an OA from all allies); if you've got a runepriest, the runepriest could take Symbolf of Wrath Reversed using the destruction rune ( The target’s first attack during its next turn provokes an opportunity attack from you or an ally of your choice); a bard could use Counterpoint (whenever the target misses, it provokes an OA from you and your allies).


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## Aulirophile (May 4, 2010)

Nowhere does it say you have to be adjacent to make an OA. It just doesn't. Under normal provoking an adjacent enemy can provoke one, sure, but if a power says "Provokes an Opportunity attack" it just does. So either Reaving Axe Slayer provokes an OA from you, or it provokes an OA from your whole party and anyone capable of hitting him with an OA, can. Personally I think it is the first.

And Agile Opportunist isn't an OA, it is an Immediate Action. You don't even know the wording of the things you're referencing for your argument.
_
OPPORTUNITY ATTACK: OPPORTUNITY ACTION

Melee Basic Attack: An  opportunity attack is a melee basic attack.

Moving Provokes: If  an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity  attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy  shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a  slide.

Ranged and Area Powers Provoke: If an enemy adjacent to  you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity  attack against that enemy.

One per Combatant’s Turn: You can take  only one opportunity action during another combatant’s turn, but you  can take any number during a round.

Able to Attack: You can’t  make an opportunity attack unless you are able to make a melee basic  attack and you can see your enemy.

Interrupts Target’s Action: An  opportunity action takes place before the target finishes its action.  After the opportunity attack, the creature resumes its action. If the  target is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer by the opportunity attack, it  can’t finish its action because it’s dead or dying.

Threatening  Reach: Some creatures have an ability called threatening reach. This  lets them make opportunity attacks against nonadjacent enemies. If an  enemy leaves a square that’s within the  creature’s reach, or if an  enemy anywhere within the creature’s reach makes a ranged attack or an  area attack, the creature can make an opportunity attack against that  enemy._


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## mneme (May 4, 2010)

Audiophile: actually, it does say that; read Threatening Reach.  If you need TR to make OAs against nonadjacent enemies, what do you normally make OAs against?

But that's not the point (it is Obryn's argument); mine is that there's nothing letting you OA against a creature that "provokes".  Only one that provokes from -you-.  Reaving Axe Slayer, without interpretation, doesn't actually let anyone make OAs against the provoking creature; the feat is clearly incomplete.


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## Aulirophile (May 4, 2010)

chorolus said:


> Ok, ok. So maybe our interpretations of RAS and OA's were incorrect. I keep saying our/we by the way because I'm posting on behalf of my entire dnd group, DM included, so saying my postings are 'my idiosyncratic interpretations' seems a little rude...
> 
> So the only way someone would be able to issue forth OA's enmasse would be for them to wield a polearm and make generous use of class features/powers to increase their threatening reach. I know of one such power, a daily Swordmage utility power called Giant's Might, which increases their size/reach until the end of the encounter, or if you choose to end it early. Does anyone know of other powers/features/etc have similar effects?



Polearm Master PP, Stoneblessed PP, one of racial Minotaur PPs, Eternal Defender ED, a handful of Warden Polymorph forms all incease your reach by 1. For threatening reach you have Polearm Master PP, Stoneblessed PP, Spear of Urrok the Brave, Spiked Chain MC power feat.


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## Aulirophile (May 4, 2010)

mneme said:


> Audiophile: actually, it does say that; read Threatening Reach.  If you need TR to make OAs against nonadjacent enemies, what do you normally make OAs against?
> 
> But that's not the point (it is Obryn's argument); mine is that there's nothing letting you OA against a creature that "provokes".  Only one that provokes from -you-.  Reaving Axe Slayer, without interpretation, doesn't actually let anyone make OAs against the provoking creature; the feat is clearly incomplete.



For normal OAs. A power provoking an OA is not a normal OA. Clearly.


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## chorolus (May 4, 2010)

I don't believe the wording in the Threatening Reach explanation is a valid argument when applied to (possible) ranged Opportunity Attacks. How hard would it be for them to simply make the same, or similar, explanation in the Opportunity Attack main section itself. It's simply making sure that everyone knows that an something with extended reach like oversized monsters, say a dragon, can make OA's anywhere within his personal reach zone. 

Now I do agree with you on the RAS feat, it is probably something that's incomplete. Almost all of the other Greater Style-feats have specific powers they are associated with, and RAS simply says 'anytime you crit, x happens'. It seems a bit out of line with its peers. It also needs to be more specific about who it's provoking OA's from. 

I would rather assume only you as the one who caused the effect, since provoking from everyone does seem pretty stacked--and if it did indeed provoke from everyone, then any enemy attempting to stand from being knocked prone from any effect should theoretically provoke OA's. But they don't in 4E, which I think someone said previously...provoking OA's from those adjacent to you when standing is a thing for the 3.5 days.


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## mneme (May 4, 2010)

They've been pushing exeception-based design on 4e -- which means not having a rule for everything.  Instead, what they've tried to do with OAs is to have everything that grants OAs specify its range (and have extenders either reference Threatening Reach (which is misworded compared to later templating, but that's another matter) or use a "when a creature within your melee reach provokes from adjacent enemies, it also provokes from you" wording.  Basically, the wording in threatening reach is a possible source of insight into intent, but certainly not a rule.

I think we (aside from maybe Audiophile, and maybe Obryn) have reached consensus.  RAS is incomplete (though it most certainly -does- have associated powers.  The second benefit is: You can use Strength instead of Dexterity for attack rolls and damage rolls when using a power associated with this feat, with associated powers of Arrow of Vengeance, Bloodlust Strike: Only when used as a ranged attack, Hawk's Talon: Only when used as a ranged attack, Hobbling Shot, Lightning Shot, and Thwarting Shot), and is either intended to have the target provoke from you (as you're the one who knocked it down and are waiting for it to get up) or all adjacent enemies.  It's worth asking CS which is intended, just for giggles (and to maybe encourage Wizards to clarify it) but if one rules at the table that it provokes from you and you alone, that's a reasonable combo with a throwing seeker at 16th level.  What are the other builds at the table?


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## Aulirophile (May 4, 2010)

mneme said:


> They've been pushing exeception-based design on 4e -- which means not having a rule for everything.  Instead, what they've tried to do with OAs is to have everything that grants OAs specify its range (and have extenders either reference Threatening Reach (which is misworded compared to later templating, but that's another matter) or use a "when a creature within your melee reach provokes from adjacent enemies, it also provokes from you" wording.  Basically, the wording in threatening reach is a possible source of insight into intent, but certainly not a rule.
> 
> I think we (aside from maybe Audiophile, and maybe Obryn) have reached consensus.  RAS is incomplete (though it most certainly -does- have associated powers.  The second benefit is: You can use Strength instead of Dexterity for attack rolls and damage rolls when using a power associated with this feat, with associated powers of Arrow of Vengeance, Bloodlust Strike: Only when used as a ranged attack, Hawk's Talon: Only when used as a ranged attack, Hobbling Shot, Lightning Shot, and Thwarting Shot), and is either intended to have the target provoke from you (as you're the one who knocked it down and are waiting for it to get up) or all adjacent enemies.  It's worth asking CS which is intended, just for giggles (and to maybe encourage Wizards to clarify it) but if one rules at the table that it provokes from you and you alone, that's a reasonable combo with a throwing seeker at 16th level.  What are the other builds at the table?



I asked yesterday, no answer yet. 

Also that isn't how my handle is spelled.


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## chorolus (May 5, 2010)

Well yes, RAS does have associated powers. What I meant was that what I consider the best benefit of the feat is the knockdown effect, which isn't linked to any of the powers associated with it. It simply states that any and all criticals trigger the 'enemy gets knocked prone' effect.

I do realize that 4E is trying to have more streamlined, fluid rules instead of multiple hard rules to cover every conceivable situation, but this is one chink in it's armor of rules that's a little bit too ambiguous... Additional clarification is definitely needed.

In *our* opinion, ranged OA's are a bit strong, but to gain the ability to do them you have to make some serious sacrifices feat-wise as well as having the need to start as a Hybrid, or at the very least Multiclass as a Seeker to pull it off with non-bow weapons...so it really isn't overpowered when you consider how much you have to invest to even do it.  It's basically like a Bow/Beast ranger with reduced range...especially with all the pet/wolf feats that allow similar 'knock prone' effects...

We do however, want to stick to non-houseruled strictures though...so until further clarification is provided I guess this character is on hold.

---

So far as what other builds are on the table... The only other good suggestion from this thread that I remember off the top of my head is the Hybrid Shaman/BM one:

Hybrid Shaman/Sharpshooter Beastmaster Ranger
She's got two 'pets' to try and corner enemies into attacking her Ranger pet. Another option is to take a multiclass feat for any arcane class...Swordmage maybe...that's a pretty big maybe, but stick with me here. She could then take the feat(s) to get a familiar and have 3 pets to use as a veritable mobile wall to simply block enemies or to try to fish for OA's.

I was actually experimenting with a melee version of this character before I started this thread, but the strategy seems to make more sense from a ranged perspective. It meshes perfectly with a ranged (probably Longbow) semi-controller focus, and could even gain some utility with limited healing spells from her Shaman roots, and could take Melora's Tide (a Channel Divinity feat) that would let her cast Regen 2 when an ally is bloodied for a little more healing power. I was thinking she could use a Halberd in melee for the extended reach, and could still take advantage of the RAS/knockdown feats in a similar fashion to the build in question. She could even do so from behind her line of minions and be safely out of harms way. If the ranged Throwing Axe/RAS combo is decided to be legal, she could even go that way though she would be a lot more pressed to make room for the appropriate feats to go with a thrown-weapon focus. Well that and she wouldn't be able to even do ranged OA's unless she could somehow MC as a seeker to take the PP for it...once again, *if* it's decided that OA's can even work that way...

Other than that one, I've got a couple other experimental builds kicking around, but none that are OA focuses other then these two. 

Sorry if I tend to cause drama with my questions...I just like to try and come up with character concepts that are a bit off-the-wall. Maybe I try too hard to think outside the box when I should just go with tried and tested characters. But I get bored playing cookie-cutter builds with slight variations thrown in...and yes, I would consider a Daggavenger(even before the nerf) to be one such cookie-cutter build. 

One final question before I head off to work again: Are there any Seeker multiclass feats? I can't seem to find them in the Character Builder.


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## Aulirophile (May 5, 2010)

RAS provokes from everyone apparently. Wheeee, time to make a new LFR character.

I'd still rule it only provokes from the person who has the RAS feat. 
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* Customer (xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)*05/04/2010 02:32 PM Hi!

The literal wording of this feat says  that when you crit a target, it falls prone and provokes an OA if it  stands up before the end of your next turn. It doesn't say who it  provokes the OA from. Does it provoke it from you? Can you take it if  you have some method of making ranged OAs and aren't adjacent? Does it  provoke from every adjacent enemy as it if had attempted to move away?


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## chorolus (May 5, 2010)

Awesome...you know what, the fact that it provokes from everyone is perfectly fine by me. I think I actually like that idea better then performing ranged OA's myself--it will provide additional dmg-dealing opportunities for my allies and be more of a teamwork strategy.

Still no answers on the Seeker MC question...so I must ask again....where's the MC feat? Is it not implemented into the Character Builder yet? Is there going to be one?


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## Aulirophile (May 5, 2010)

chorolus said:


> Awesome...you know what, the fact that it provokes from everyone is perfectly fine by me. I think I actually like that idea better then performing ranged OA's myself--it will provide additional dmg-dealing opportunities for my allies and be more of a teamwork strategy.
> 
> Still no answers on the Seeker MC question...so I must ask again....where's the MC feat? Is it not implemented into the Character Builder yet? Is there going to be one?



*Primal Sharpshooter [Multiclass Seeker]*

*Heroic Tier*
*Prerequisite*: Wis 13
*Benefit*: You  gain training in Nature.
Once per day, you can use the seeker’s  inevitable shot power. You don’t regain the use of that power when you  spend an action point.
Choose one 1st-level seeker at-will attack  power. You can use that power once per encounter.


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## chorolus (May 5, 2010)

Thanks for pointing that one out for me, I guess I kept reading on past it in the MC feat list. 

I suppose it's a bit unnecessary though, since the verdict seems to be that the Seeker PP only works if you are already adjacent and able to make a standard OA before it allows you to make that OA with a ranged weapon/attack instead...

The Sharpshooter/Seven Fates Archer Paragons and perhaps the Spitting Cobra stance aside, there aren't any other class features/powers/etc that could allow for ranged OA's? 

If all of the Paragons/etc require you to be able to make a melee-range OA THEN allow you to use a ranged weapon to perform that OA instead, then the only remaining way I currently see to bypass the rule requiring you to literally be in the monsters face to perform an OA is to take the Quick Draw feat and wield a polearm from a reach-position...then when you are allowed an OA for being adjacent(including your weapons  extended reach), you could quick-draw your throwing weapons(likely axes) and use them instead.

It seems a bit pointless to do such a thing though, since you would likely deal the same or less damage with your throwing weapon versus your polearm. If there was a way to Twin Strike with those throwing weapons, then it could be worth it...but the only weapon capable of being a Heavy Blade for HBO as well as qualifying for RAS is the Khopesh. A Farbond Khopesh would be pretty wicked awesome though.

So much effort to use a tactic like this reeks of cheese though... I wouldn't do such a thing ingame, I'm just exploring possibilities. Any other thoughts?


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