# Do grammar and spelling matter on a message board?



## ichabod

Aftur mythusmage's insistuns that we awl spell chek and gramar chec our posts too dese message bords, I was curious az two what other ENWorlders tink aboot it.


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## Crothian

Yes, but not to a huge degree.  Bad grammer and bad spelling are a sign of laziness.  I'm not perfect, no one is, but most posts like the one above I just skip over because they are not worth my time.  Take a few seconds and reread what you've typed.  That catches more problems then you might realize.


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## gfunk

It only really matters if you are in flame war.  Then you should be extra careful.  Otherwise your detractors will inevitably post the following,

"How can you complain about xxx, when you have the spelling/grammar skills of a 4-year old?"

Nasty.


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## Nifft

IMHO, both matter. -- N


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## Lola

A mispelling may or may not matter. If you habitually make typos or just can't spell, it can make you look like an elementary school dropout using the public library computer. However, bad grammar really makes one look stupid the worse it gets. (and I'm sure that was a violation of some grammar rule...    ) Worse yet, people with bad grammar can be difficult to converse with, as it's often unclear just what the heck they're trying to say. I don't think we need to be scholars, but if you know you have weaknesses, it might not hurt to brush up. I, of course, am darn near perfect...






















Bwahahahahaha! I never can keep a straight face when I say things like that!


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## mythusmage

Spelling and grammar matter, period. A person who can't be bothered to use correct spelling and grammar, can't expect other people to be bothered to read him.

(Edited because of spelling and to clarify a point.)


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## madriel

They both matter.  They don't have to be perfect every time, but poor grammar and spelling can make a post incoherent.  I've come across the occasional post where I can't even figure out what the person is saying.  It takes less effort for the original poster to get the spelling and grammar right than it does for all the following posters to decipher their gobbledygook.


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## Fast Learner

I selected "Other" because I think they both matter _somewhat_. I am of the belief that messageboard posts are informal writing, akin to the informal speech we use in most of our daily lives. I don't expect such on-the-fly missives to have perfect spelling or grammar, just as I don't expect people to speak with perfect grammar or pronuciation. I would never write a business document using such informality, of course, but on messageboards... no big deal.

However, just as people judge you by the way you speak, they will most certainly judge you by the way you write. If you're trying to be convincing or persuasive in any way, both spelling and grammar are important, even in an informal setting.

So... Other.


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## Kichwas

In a text based medium your ability to write well is your ability to communicate well.


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## Stormfalcon

I agree with Fast Learner.  Certainly, good spelling and grammar are things that people should strive for.  However, messageboards in general are much more informal than professional writing or writing a resume, thus I cut other users some slack and don't go jumping down their throats for minor errors.  Some people may be exhausted or tired when they post.  Some people may not have English as their native language.  Some people may not be in an entirely rational frame of mind.  We're all human (at least I hope that we're all human), and we're all prone to mistakes from time to time.  A little more understanding and less perfectionism may be more in order here than in a professional setting.


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## tarchon

Crothian said:
			
		

> Yes, but not to a huge degree.  Bad grammer and bad spelling are a sign of laziness.




No, no, "Bad grammer and bad spelling is signs of laziness."


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## Thresher

Well theres different versions of english, English/US and English/UK/Au have a a lot of differences in their spelling and its not the easiest language for people to learn, much more so to write.
Yes, there is the rest of the world out there and its probably a lot different to your own backyard, so give a person a break. Everyones entitled to a screw-up once in awhile because we're only human and if your like me, a bit dyslexic then you have to double check everything once or twice to make sure. Maybe my spelling isnt the best sometimes but it dosnt make me stupid.

What really annoys me is people that 'judge' others on their literacy ability as a sign on intelligence, dunno what gives them that right considering its only letters on a page and if you think that some common courtesy can be discarded as its not a face to face communication that is the height of rudeness.


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## Heretic Apostate

Is this poll in any way related to RPGs?

If not, I expect it to be closed.  Probably while I'm trying to post.


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## Stormfalcon

Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> Is this poll in any way related to RPGs?
> 
> If not, I expect it to be closed.  Probably while I'm trying to post.




It's basically a spinoff from a thread regarding grammar, spelling, RPG releases, and press releases.  Essentially, that thread started heading into flamewar territory when one person started insisting that people be judged by the way they write on Internet messageboards, thus this spinoff.


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## Heretic Apostate

Then it shouldn't have been made into a poll.  Off-topic polls are forbidden.  If you can figure some way to close the poll, great, but otherwise this thread will be closed by the mods.


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## Felix

My spelling and grammar is my representation on this message board. If I neglect to speak clearly and precicely, I show that I am lazy, unknowledgable (of English), or that I hold in contempt the readers of the boards. 

"'He that lives well preaches well' quoth Sancho, 'that's all the divinity I understand.'" Same for typing, say I.


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## Mouseferatu

I, for one, certainly don't expect _perfection_ in online posts. I don't mind slang--this is basically the equivalent of informal speech. I don't mind the occasional typo, or mistake. I make more than enough of those myself.

And I certainly understand that when English is not someone's first language, they're going to have issues with it. It's far from the easiest language to learn.

All that said, I expect people to at least make an _effort_ at proper spelling and grammar--and let's be honest, you can usually tell, based on the sorts of mistakes, whether the proplem is a lack of understanding of the language or simple laziness. Ultimately, language is about communication. If you don't attempt to use the language properly (or at least intelligibly), what you're trying to communicate is likely to get lost, or at best be difficult to interpret.

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that if someone's post was unimportant enough to them that they couldn't be bothered to _try_ to communicate it properly, it certainly can't be important enough for anyone to bother reading it.

(Emergencies and other situations where typing is legitimately done in haste are, of course, exceptions. But I've not yet come across anything on an RPG messageboard that justifiably quallifies as an emergency.)

This, BTW, is also why I feel people who use "L33T speak" regularly and seriously (I have no problem with people doing it on occasion as a joke) should have their computers confiscated and be forced to repeat the 2nd-5th grades. But that's just me.


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## Whiplash

I voted Both Matter but keep in mind that sometimes the poster's first language is *not* english.


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## Hand of Evil

I would have said at one time they matter *BUT* surfing is an international pastime, _Americian english_ is the defaco standard.  We should not hold our culture and way of doing things above those of other counties, forcing our spelling and grammer onto them.  Yes, it matters to a degree but it is something you over look and don't talk about.


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## Wulf Ratbane

Felix said:
			
		

> My spelling and grammar is my representation on this message board.




Then you might consider editing that right there. 


Wulf


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## Dinkeldog

It's off topic in General, but on topic in Meta, so that's where we're going for this.

Oh, and I'm with Wulf and Mouseferatu.


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## TheAuldGrump

It drives me nuts when other people are wantonly careless with their spelling and grammer, and find it very, very, annoying when I find spelling errors I have created. (And I always do... Mostly missing characters typed with my off hand.)

The Auld Grump


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## Zappo

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Spelling and grammar matter, period. A person can't be bothered to use correct spelling and *garmmar*, other people won't be bothered to read him.



I agree, but there are many people for which English isn't their primary language (me included), and a few mistakes are ok (yours included ). 

 Anyway, my general principle is, if your post isn't important enough for you to spend a few extra seconds making it readable... why should it be any more important for me?


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## EricNoah

I don't think any reasonable person is going to hold the occasional typo, misspelling, etc. against you.  There's a world of difference between "writing to get some ideas out there" vs. "writing publication-quality material".  I think the amount of effort that goes into your writing should be proportional to its importance.  On message boards, you're just shooting the breeze. 

I also think folks who offer unsolicited corrections are being kind of rude, or at the very least out to show how clever they are. This is, I think, a personality trait of many gamers, though -- if they have to choose, they'd rather look clever/smart/competent than be thought of as "nice." 

I should add, though, that when publishers have mistakes like this on their websites or press releases, that does kind of make my skin crawl.  But again, it's related to the importance of writing to their job and the products they're trying to sell me.


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## Mark Chance

Crothian said:
			
		

> Bad grammer and bad spelling are a sign of laziness.




Lazy! 



			
				Mythusmage said:
			
		

> Spelling and grammar matter, period. A person can't be bothered to use correct spelling and garmmar, other people won't be bothered to read him.




I'd have read what you wrote, but the lousy grammar and spelling in your second sentence just put me off. So, I'll let a very widely-read poet answer this assertion:

i sing of Olaf glad and big
whose warmest heart recoiled at war:
a conscientious object-or

his wellbelov'd colonel(trig
westpointer most succinctly bred)
took erring Olaf soon in hand; 
but--though an host of overjoyed 
noncoms(first knocking on the head 
him)do through icy waters roll 
that helplessness which others stroke
with brushes recently employed 
anent this muddy toiletbowl, 
while kindred intellects evoke 
allegiance per blunt instruments--
Olaf(being to all intents
a corpse and wanting any rag 
upon what God unto him gave) 
responds,without getting annoyed 
"I will not kiss your ing flag"

straightway the silver bird looked grave
(departing hurriedly to shave)

but--though all kinds of officers 
(a yearning nation's blueeyed pride) 
their passive prey did kick and curse
until for wear their clarion     
voices and boots were much the worse, 
and egged the firstclassprivates on
his rectum wickedly to tease 
by means of skilfully applied
bayonets roasted hot with heat--
Olaf(upon what were once knees)
does almost ceaselessly repeat
"there is some  I will not eat"

our president,being of which
assertions duly notified         
threw the yellowsonofabitch
into a dungeon,where he died

Christ(of His mercy infinite)
i pray to see;and Olaf,too

preponderatingly because
unless statistics lie he was
more brave than me:more blond than you.


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## Silveras

arcady said:
			
		

> In a text based medium your ability to write well is your ability to communicate well.




*That* is exactly right. That is the practical reason. 

I also agree with the sentiment that poor spelling and grammar skills undermine the opinion expressed. There/Their/They're confusion, Your/You're confusion, typing "and" for "an", while all common errors, undercut the strength of any opinion expressed. Why ? Because writing is reflective of thought processes. Sloppy writing contributes to sloppy thinking, and sloppy thinking produces sloppy writing. Thus, when I see poor spelling and grammar, I have to wonder about the thinking behind them.


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## Heretic Apostate

A quote I rather enjoy.

"Is sloppiness in speech caused by ignorance or apathy?"

"I don't know and I don't care."


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## Faraer

Selfishly, good writing gets your point across better; and morally it's wrong to put the burden of decoding your badly written stuff on the hundreds of people who will read it.







			
				EricNoah said:
			
		

> I also think folks who offer unsolicited corrections are being kind of rude, or at the very least out to show how clever they are.



I don't think it's rude at all -- if I consistently spell a word wrong I want to know so I can spell better -- but I don't correct (almost always) because of people's tendency to take it as an attack on their ego.


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## Monster Manuel

I do a lot of my posting late at night, since that is when I do my best writing. At those times, my creativity is at its best, but my math, spelling, and *sometimes* grammar abilities are weak. I marked 'no'.

Let me qualify that. I don't read posts here looking for typos or spelling mistakes, and if there are a few, I don't get bent out of shape over them. I don't feel that the poster personally hates me, or that they are uneducated- believe me, I've met many educated folk with atrocious spelling and grammar. I make plenty of mistakes, especially while trying to post to a topic quickly, or while falling asleep. I read and post to the boards for the industry news, for fun, and for personal edification in an informal environment. 

As long as the the basic the criterion of 'getting the point across' is met, I think that quibbling over minutia like a stray comma, an 'i' before 'e' error, or grammar quirk is absurd. Even for many of us who write for publication, a message board is for informal communication.


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## Umbran

Both matter, but only to a point.  These boards are an informal discussion forum, not a formal one.  This is a place where friends get together to chat, not a place where official and important stuff happens.  Seeking perfect adherence to the laws of language here would get in the way of the relaxed and friendly tenor of the place.

Do you use perfect grammar and word choice when speaking face to face with your friends?  Probably not.  So don't expect perfection here either.  Do you expect your friends to be coherent?  Probably, so expect and ask for that instead.


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## Brother Shatterstone

Damn, Mark be me to it...  

Anyhow, it does matter, with spelling mattering slightly more but you need not be perfect, but it should be close enough that you can convey your thoughts to the reader the first time through.


An example:
Anyhow, it does matter, with spelling mattering slightly more but you need not be perfect, but it should be close enough that you can convey your thoughts to the reader the first time *threw*.


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## Djeta Thernadier

I've never seen a post so bad that I couldn't read it, so I went with no.


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## Brother Shatterstone

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> I've never seen a post so bad that I couldn't read it, so I went with no.



funny, I remember one of yours...   *LOL* [J/K]


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## Djeta Thernadier

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> funny, I remember one of yours...   *LOL* [J/K]




 

Also, I should add, someone above said that we should keep in mind not all posters first language is English. Translators don't always translate well. A lot of people post at work. Sometimes, to post at work, a person has to type fast. That's happened to me more than a few times.


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## johnsemlak

Spelling and grammar are important, but there are several other factors in being a good communicator, even in writing or in a messageboard.  Grammar and spelling can by highly overrated.

Coherance, organization, and other factors play a huge role.  A writer with flawless sentences and good spelling but who can't organize a text (there are many) is just as difficult to read as someone who can't spell or construct a sentence.


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## Wulf Ratbane

I'll tune out a poster with habitually poor spelling and grammar, sure, but I'm more likely to tune out an intolerable, pedantic prick. 

Wulf


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## Monster Manuel

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I'll tune out a poster with habitually poor spelling and grammar, sure, but I'm more likely to tune out an intolerable, pedantic prick.
> 
> Wulf




Agreed.


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## Harlock

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I selected "Other" because I think they both matter _somewhat_. I am of the belief that messageboard posts are informal writing, akin to the informal speech we use in most of our daily lives. I don't expect such on-the-fly missives to have perfect spelling or grammar, just as I don't expect people to speak with perfect grammar or pronuciation. I would never write a business document using such informality, of course, but on messageboards... no big deal.
> 
> However, just as people judge you by the way you speak, they will most certainly judge you by the way you write. If you're trying to be convincing or persuasive in any way, both spelling and grammar are important, even in an informal setting.
> 
> So... Other.




Well said, Fast Learner.  I agree.


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## Desdichado

I like to keep my posts fairly conversational, so I won't say that everyone should hire editors to browse the message boards.  But I've seem my share of posts so badly written that they are completely unintelligable.  Actually, the post kicking off this poll is borderline unintelligible.  If it's that bad, then no one will be bothered to read it and try to decipher if there's anything of value buried in the mess.


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## BVB

If I'm not interested in reading someone's message, then it's his fault for not working hard enough to earn my attention. 

The argument, "It's the idea that matters most, not the presentation," is full of hooey. Even in casual conversation.


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## Tom Cashel

_For Your Enlightenment_ 

*THE PARABLE OF THE BITTER TEA*

_by Rev. Dr. Hypocrates Magoun, P.P. POEE PRIEST, Okinawa Cabal_

When Hypoc was through meditating with St. Gulik, he went there into the kitchen where he busied himself with preparing the feast and in his endeavor, he found that there was some old tea in a pan left standing from the night before, when he had in his weakness forgot about its making and had let it sit steeping for 24 hours.

It was dark and murky and it was Hypoc's intention to use this old tea by diluting it with water. And again in his weakness, chose without further consideration and plunged into the physical labor of the preparations.

It was then when deeply immersed in the pleasure of that trip, he had a sudden loud clear voice in his head saying "it is bitter tea that involves you so." Hypoc heard the voice, but the struggle inside intensified, and the pattern, previously established with the physical laboring and the muscle messages coordinated and unified or perhaps coded, continued to exert their influence and Hypoc succumbed to the pressure and he denied the voice.

And again he plunged into the physical orgy and completed the task, and Lo as the voice had predicted, the tea was bitter.


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## mythusmage

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> I'd have read what you wrote, but the lousy grammar and spelling in your second sentence just put me off. So, I'll let a very widely-read poet answer this assertion:




You do know the difference between being clever and being 'arch'?

(I know there's a better word than 'arch', but danged if I can think of it.)


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## alsih2o

mythusmage said:
			
		

> You do know the difference between being clever and being 'arch'?
> 
> (I know there's a better word than 'arch', but danged if I can think of it.)





 so, grammar and spelling matter, but vocabulary doesn't?


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## Brother Shatterstone

alsih2o said:
			
		

> so, grammar and spelling matter, but vocabulary doesn't?



*LMAO*


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## Umbran

BVB said:
			
		

> If I'm not interested in reading someone's message, then it's his fault for not working hard enough to earn my attention.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, if you don't want to pay attention to good ideas due to what you think is poor presentation, that's your loss.  Conversation is a two way street.  It is cooperative.  It is not simply the speaker vying for your precious attention.
> 
> Casual conversation is just that - casual.  At a casual dinner party, does one need to wear a suit to gain respect?  No.  So, in casual conversation, one should not need to use the full formalities of language to get notice.
Click to expand...


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## Wulf Ratbane

Umbran said:
			
		

> So, in casual conversation, one should not need to use the full formalities of language to get notice.




Indeed. As a technical writer I can tell you that just the opposite is true. You don't dress up your language and expect the audience to come along with you. You should *speak to your audience* in the most effective manner to communicate your message. It's as simple as that. Folks on both ends of the spectrum here need to come to grips with that.


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## Mark Chance

mythusmage said:
			
		

> You do know the difference between being clever and being 'arch'?
> 
> (I know there's a better word than 'arch', but danged if I can think of it.)




Yeah, I know the diff. I also cannot help but gape at the irony of someone who says, "_Spelling and grammar matter, period. A person can't be bothered to use correct spelling and garmmar, other people won't be bothered to read him._," while at the same time misspelling "grammar" and joining two independent clauses with a comma. 

And now for another favorite:

Me up at does

out of the floor
quietly Stare

a poisoned mouse

still who alive

is asking What
have i done that

You wouldn't have


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## BVB

Umbran said:
			
		

> Hey, if you don't want to pay attention to good ideas due to what you think is poor presentation, that's your loss.  Conversation is a two way street.  It is cooperative.  It is not simply the speaker vying for your precious attention.
> 
> Casual conversation is just that - casual.  At a casual dinner party, does one need to wear a suit to gain respect?  No.  So, in casual conversation, one should not need to use the full formalities of language to get notice.




Hit a nerve, eh?

You're somehow drawing a parallel between language and clothing. Interesting. If you'd like to be a little more complete, however, it would be helpful to clarify just what "casual" means to you, and build the scene more: Is the suit in your allusion a tuxedo or just a matching sweatshirt and pants? Is the party BYOB-And-Get-Wasted affair or an annual company formal affair? While you're talking to the lovely lady across the dinner table later, are your elbows resting on the table as you spew bits of food with every sentence?

Because, yeah, appearances DO matter. You never get a second chance to make a first impression, and on the Internet, every message is someone's first impression of who you are. 

When I see a slob at the "party," I don't care if he's quoting Shakespeare or spinning drunken limmericks -- if he doesn't care enough to clean up his act, my attention is going to be spent elsewhere. 

Anyone who can't grasp that is doing himself a disservice.


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## Monster Manuel

BVB said:
			
		

> Hit a nerve, eh?
> 
> You're somehow drawing a parallel between language and clothing. Interesting. If you'd like to be a little more complete, however, it would be helpful to clarify just what "casual" means to you, and build the scene more: Is the suit in your allusion a tuxedo or just a matching sweatshirt and pants? Is the party BYOB-And-Get-Wasted affair or an annual company formal affair? While you're talking to the lovely lady across the dinner table later, are your elbows resting on the table as you spew bits of food with every sentence?
> 
> Because, yeah, appearances DO matter. You never get a second chance to make a first impression, and on the Internet, every message is someone's first impression of who you are.
> 
> When I see a slob at the "party," I don't care if he's quoting Shakespeare or spinning drunken limmericks -- if he doesn't care enough to clean up his act, my attention is going to be spent elsewhere.
> 
> Anyone who can't grasp that is doing himself a disservice.



I'm not implying anything when I say this, but I'd take converstion with a brilliant slob over a well-dressed boor any day. Certainly I understand the value of keeping one's self up, and making the best impression, but if you write people off just because of presentation, you're the one who's doing himself a disservice. I've learned things from the homeless people I've met on a daily basis. Conversely, my millionaire ex-boss was the most ignorant person I've ever met.


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## Henry

Presentation vs. content, as in all things, is a matter of moderation. Mild grammar mistakes do not cause most readers to "jump ship;" readers understand that to err is human, and therefore do not push the issue. In addition, not all posters post in their native tongue; grammar is not easy for even native posters, so why should we give extra grief to those who were not born speaking the language they post in!?!?!

_(Incidental side note: If you are going to correct someone on spelling and grammar in a post, YOU HAD BETTER BE 100% ACCURATE in your own; nothing trumps sanctimoniousness worse than hypocrisy.)_

However, there is such a thing as grammar that interferes with one's ability to comprehend so badly that it is horrible to even attempt to decipher. 

Two things that I abhor on message boards:

--One long paragraph. Posts which contain NO line breaks absolutely drive me nuts to read. I often skip over them, no matter HOW good a point the author makes.

--Spelling so poor that it makes the intent of the post illegible. _A psto ttha si os dlegrab ti ssemes thwi rouy dnim._ I skim past these after a sentence or two: There are only so many hours in a day.


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## Umbran

BVB said:
			
		

> Hit a nerve, eh?




Only in the sense that I find grammar-nazis to be more of a hindrance than a help when trying to communicate with people.  



> Is the suit in your allusion a tuxedo or just a matching sweatshirt and pants? Is the party BYOB-And-Get-Wasted affair or an annual company formal affair?




And anyone who pretends that I might mean "formal affair" when I say "causal" is doing both of us a disservice. 

These message boards are clearly not a corporate formal dinner party.  Just as clearly, neither are they Friday night fraternity drunken debauchery.  



> Because, yeah, appearances DO matter. You never get a second chance to make a first impression, and on the Internet, every message is someone's first impression of who you are.




Yes.  That includes the impression of being a stuffed shirt with no sense of humor or flexibility for people's foibles.  These boards are centered on discussion of a hobby, something one does for fun in one's spare time.  While clarity is nice, requiring formalism detracts from the fun.  As Wulf Rathbane mentioned, the style should be chosen to fit the audience.  Does this look like a formal audience to you?


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## Mark Chance

Umbran said:
			
		

> Does this look like a formal audience to you?




But that's irrelevant. Style is preferable to substance. The superficial is much more important than the hidden. It is the facade that makes the building, after all.

*sniff, sniff*

Smell that?

That's sarcasm.


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## Tom Cashel

...and Godwin's Law is once again fulfilled. "Pedantic pricks" and "grammar-nazis."  What a nasty sandbox this has become!

Thinking of EN World as a text-based environment goes a long way toward understanding what is at issue here, but not quite far enough.  Remember: to exist in a text-based environment, human beings must distill the complex interactions of hand and brain into inferior material: text.

_We become language_ in here.

We click _reply_ and fit ourselves into little identical boxes--which are jazzed up by user titles and avatars and sigs; like slapping a few posters on the walls--and we exist as words, each coded to our respective ability.

So here's the question you have to answer:

If _all you are_ is words, do you want to appear as a lazy, sloppy mess or do you want to come off as polished and trenchant-to-the-max?  I think we both know the answer, My Friend.

Because bad grammar don't do a body no good.


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## jgbrowning

i responded no. i don't think grammer and spelling are important when communicating in an informal environment. as long as comprehension is not injured, that is. most of the time i'm just chatting with people, not doing business or any other such.

i write the way i write because i know i'm understandable and that's all that language was ever devised for. grammer, spelling, word-choice etc. are too often merely attempts to indicate social standing compatablity within different groups.

in professional written conversation i can write "properly." i don't think people discount what i say because of the way i write. and generally, as harsh as it is, i'm not terribly interested in the people that would discount the message because the messanger is ugly.

joe b.

(btw, i always sign joe b. as my name because long ago, i decided to try and reduce my ego. you could say it's a religious thing with me..  )


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## Mark Chance

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> _We become language_ in here.




Not to mention terribly pretentious.


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## Tom Cashel

True.  Extremely true.

But you're just text in a box, Mark Chance.  A voice in a box, which I could choose to ignore.

But I'd never do that, Mark, because I like you.

edit: i'm terribly mixed up.  good night.


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## Mark Chance

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> True.  Extremely true.
> 
> But you're just text in a box, Mark Chance.  A voice in a box, which I could choose to ignore.
> 
> But I'd never do that, Mark, because I like you and your Star Trek threads are fun to read each week.  T'pol is hot.  That is all.




I'd never ignore you either, Tom. But, I have to confess, I don't have Star Trek threads. I'm actually a bit of a heretic. The only good Star Trek episodes or movies star William Shatner.


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## Umbran

Hm.  Sorry, Tom, but where I come from the term "grammar-Nazi" doesn't invoke Godwin's Law, because it's not a serious reference to Nazis.  At least, no rational person I know of would take any grammar-issue to the point of seriously likening the person to a real-world Nazi.  That's an absurd enough notion that I didn't consider it as a Godwin's Law thing.  It's supposed to be a nose-tweaking reference to people who take grammar too seriously for the given situation.  

I apologize if it was taken more seriously than that.  T'wasn't what I intended.


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## BVB

Umbran said:
			
		

> Hm.  Sorry, Tom, but where I come from the term "grammar-Nazi" doesn't invoke Godwin's Law, because it's not a serious reference to Nazis.  At least, no rational person I know of would take any grammar-issue to the point of seriously likening the person to a real-world Nazi.  That's an absurd enough notion that I didn't consider it as a Godwin's Law thing.  It's supposed to be a nose-tweaking reference to people who take grammar too seriously for the given situation.
> 
> I apologize if it was taken more seriously than that.  T'wasn't what I intended.





Oh, fer cryin' out --

If the word "Nazi" wasn't intended to evoke any sense of the original meaning or imagery, then there's really no reason to use the "Nazi" reference at all.


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## Tom Cashel

That's it, BVB--

*NO POST FOR YOU!  ONE YEAR!*

Umbran, no simple hyphen could ever denazi Nazi.


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## Henry

Seinfeld references aside, there is a difference between professional and informal writing, and it applies to message boards, which are the new form of the "Water Cooler" in the Twenty-First Century. 

Are you 100% grammatically and politically correct when socializing with friends? Most people I know are not - partially because of the informality, but also to drive a point home.

When I use "ain't" or "this is not problem" (instead of "not a problem") or "wanna" (instead of "want to") on a message board, I am trying to convey a feeling of casual behavior and a sense of who I am. Coincidentally, because I am not the best typist in the world, spelling mistakes occasionally slip through. Sometimes the two mingle in such a way that some posters cannot distinguish between the two. But as I said earlier, poor spelling and grammar, as long as they do not create barriers, are not a large problem. In the list of "major problems for a message board," this issue does not rank very highly.


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## BVB

(shrug) I don't think I asked to be attacked for my opinion on this thread, nor did I fire an opening salvo against anyone in particular who didn't agree with me.

If I skip over messages that require more than five minutes of deciphering, why should that anger anyone here? Sheesh. What a bunch of anti-grammar Nazis.

(And I mean "Nazis" in a good way -- the kind with long furry ears, soft cotton tail, whiskers, hopping around fields of daisies...)


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## Tom Cashel

*Actually*, making comments designed to hit a nerve, like



			
				BVB said:
			
		

> If I'm not interested in reading someone's message, then it's his fault for not working hard enough to earn my attention.




and then asking in a snarky way, "Hit a nerve, eh?"

does in fact constitute a plea to be attacked.

So your needs were obliged.



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> Hm.  Sorry, Tom, but where I come from the term "grammar-Nazi" doesn't invoke Godwin's Law, because it's not a serious reference to Nazis.




What exactly does "Nazi" mean in Boston?


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## Henry

OK, let's get overt -- 

Let's agree to disagree on this one, can we? No one needs to be attacking one another over something like grammar on a message board.


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## Tom Cashel

It's like Hypoc laboring over a pot of bitter tea...


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## Piratecat

Henry said:
			
		

> Let's agree to disagree on this one, can we?




"...on this one, shall we?"  

Only kidding, Henry!  I'd hate to do anything that would offend Eric's grammar, and she _hates_ idiosyncratic nitpicking.


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## Henry

I dunno, mann, from where I sit its lookin mor like "can" than "shall", here.


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## Mark Chance

Henry said:
			
		

> I dunno, mann, from where I sit its lookin mor like "can" than "shall", here.




I'm partial to: "Let's agree to disagree on this one, Cannes oui?" Ha!


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## Tom Cashel

As long as we're punning...



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> OK, let's get overt --




Cool.  I'm over it.


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## Henry

Tom, Mark, _NO ZOUP FOR YOU!_


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## Mark Chance

Henry said:
			
		

> Tom, Mark, _NO ZOUP FOR YOU!_




Henry, how mais oui make it up to ewe?

Rimshot, anyone?


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## Tom Cashel

_Buh-doomp chsssshh!_


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## Mark Chance

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> _Buh-doomp chsssshh!_




Thank you! Thank you! I'm here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitresses. Aren't they lovely?


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## mythusmage

C'est la vie!

C'est la guerre!

Say no more.


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## Hypersmurf

Henry said:
			
		

> _(Incidental side note: If you are going to correct someone on spelling and grammar in a post, YOU HAD BETTER BE 100% ACCURATE in your own; nothing trumps sanctimoniousness worse than hypocrisy.)_




Heh.

Any time I post a correction, I always check the message through at least three times.

And I'm sure ninety percent of the typos I make _still_ turn up in _those_ messages.

It's gremlins; I'm sure of it!  

I agree with Tom that, in a written medium, "we become language".  I like that phrase.

I've always written so as to reproduce my speaking patterns.  Particularly if I'm writing a letter - but not exclusively - I find I recite the sentences in my head, and insert ellipses, dashes, semi-colons, and commas to mimic the flow of the spoken word.  A lot of people write very differently to how they speak; different word choices, different grammatical constructions, and so forth.  I prefer to keep it "me".

A friend recently went overseas, and we've been keeping in touch by email - she made the comment that she could "hear" me in text form better than most people.  That was... gratifying.

I've never met anyone from the ENWorld Community.  All I have to "know" them by is what - and how - they write.  To me, that makes it supremely important to ensure that what you type is what you want others to... 'grok', for want of a better word, of you.

So my vote is firmly in the "Spelling and grammar are important" camp.

Not necessarily that it's vital that they be formal.  Not that it's even necessary that they be _accurate_.  But that they should be exactly what you _intend_ to convey, whether that be formal, casual, or even sloppy.

Sloppiness by accident is... well, 'unforgivable' is rather strong, but it comes close to expressing my feelings on the matter.  Sloppiness by design is, presumably, in aid of some cause, whatever that may be.

-Hyp.


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## Hypersmurf

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I'll tune out a poster with habitually poor spelling and grammar, sure, but I'm more likely to tune out an intolerable, pedantic prick.




Hey!

-Hyp.


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## jdavis

It depends...... well on a lot of things so I'l just leave it at that.


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## howandwhy99

I think both matter.  I try my best, but forget half the time to reread before posting.  

Thankfully, spellcheck operates in every reply box now.  
(like underlining spellcheck...)


...and Threadnomancy


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## jaerdaph

Other: Grammar and spelling only matter in a post where you correct someone else's grammar or spelling. I've lost count of how many times I've seen someone calling out someone else on their grammar or spelling and make mistakes of their own while they do it. "Grammer" is a personal favorite I usually see in such posts.


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## Odhanan

Spelling and grammar have an impact on the way other posters perceive your opinions. 

It's probably better to write something like "I like Call of Cthulhu because of its ambiance and the style of creepy game sessions I can run with it" rather than "Howwsome!!1! COC roxxorzzz!"


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## Thornir Alekeg

Both matter, but not to an absolute level.  

I can tolerate a certain level of poor spelling and/or grammar but if the message is so poorly written that I have to expend a lot of brain power decifering it, then I will just ignore it.


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## the Jester

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Not necessarily that it's vital that they be formal.  Not that it's even necessary that they be _accurate_.  But that they should be exactly what you _intend_ to convey, whether that be formal, casual, or even sloppy.




I think Hyp got to the nut of it here.


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