# "Mongrelfolk" -- what the?!...



## Driddle (May 22, 2005)

Upon perusing "Races of Destiny," I finally noticed one of the supplemental race options, the Mongrelfolk. Just gotta say, "What the heck were they thinking?!"

Let's set aside first the questionable choice of referring to these people as "mongrels," which, depending on your source material (and personal experience, so sayeth a person of mixed heritage), is a bad thing. We'll let that go. No problem.

Instead, let's take a closer look at the weird description and concept of the group. The intro paragraphs suggest mongrelfolk enjoy their outsider status, and that other people can't trust them because they can't be sure what race mongrels belong to. And for game mechanics, they're saddled with a -4 Charisma and -2 Intelligence penalty for some reason I just can't fathom. 

But then you've got chunks of text that suggest instead that mongrelfolk enjoy the other races and get along nicely with just about everyone because they're so open-minded and flexible. 

I can only express puzzlement again. Stumped for words, I am.

And let's not (OK, let's) take a closer look at mongrelfolk physical attributes -- a mix of other races, right? Pointy ears, but not too pointy; longish nose, but not too longish; strong jaw, but not too strong ... eyes like this race, mouth like that race ...

And somehow that's supposed to make them ugly (-4 Char!) or prompt others to assume the worst about their racial origins?!

Please. Try to explain this one to me. I could use a good laugh.


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## nopantsyet (May 22, 2005)

Hmmm...[eyes 10' pole] Nope -- too short.


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## VirgilCaine (May 22, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> Please. Try to explain this one to me. I could use a good laugh.




Sometimes, 2nd edition is still superior. In 2e they didn't have their very own GOD.


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## I'm A Banana (May 22, 2005)

Well, if you're incandescent with fury at the wrongness of it all, I don't think any amount of explanation is going to throw water on that fire. But I'll do what I can without allowing this to become a flame-fest.

First of all, this is fantasy, not reality. Fantasy races are much more drastically different from each other than, say, people of Asian descent and people of African descent here on good ol' earth; or even people of Irish descent and people of French desecent here on good ol' earth. Any difference between these broad genetic communities of humans is, as far as the game goes, 100% insignificant, just like any difference between the genders. An elf marrying a human is not really to be thought of as an interracial couple, it's to be thought of as more the difference between a chimpanzee and a human, or a horse and a donkey, or breeds of dog...enough difference to make them work quite drastically different, to make them different species in some cases, but not always enough to make them infertile. So when you think of mongrelfolk, the real-world analouge would not be a mixed racial heritage, it would be more like two breeds of dog mixing....mongrelfolk are analgous to mutts, not to mixed-race humans.

Understandably, the comparison has been made by intolerant jackenapes between real-world human races and dog breeds as well, but the game definately does not share this highly offensive viewpoint. When the game talks about mixing races, it's not culturally divergant human societies (which all end up ultimately human), it's like mixing human with chimpanzee (which, if anything, would end up ultimately not human or chimp). It's a much more drastic degree, and it's not meant to refer to real-world people of mixed heritage, either.



> Let's set aside first the questionable choice of referring to these people as "mongrels," which, depending on your source material (and personal experience, so sayeth a person of mixed heritage), is a bad thing.




Again, I would put yourself in the fantasy world, rather than seeing this (wrongly, I believe) as a comment on the real world. The fantasy world is hardly PC, and I don't think WotC has a duty to represent the fantasy world *as* PC. There are small people we call "halflings" and "dwarves" (potentially deragatory, especially to real-world little people); there are cultures that are called "barbaric" and "savage" (just because they don't share our values?); there often are racial jokes in the campaign world (effeminate men being called "elfish," for one, or about dwarves loving gold, or about gnomes and their ability to fit into catapults...). For a fantasy world, it would make sense that the common folk would refer to creatures of chimpanzee/bonobo/gorilla/macaque heritage as "mongrels," and even use it as a derogatory term. However, like halflings don't usually call themselves halflings, and lizardfolk don't call themselves lizardfolk, I doubt mongrelfolk call themselves mongrelfolk. 



> The intro paragraphs suggest mongrelfolk enjoy their outsider status, and that other people can't trust them because they can't be sure what race mongrels belong to. And for game mechanics, they're saddled with a -4 Charisma and -2 Intelligence penalty for some reason I just can't fathom.




Again, fantasy world, not reality. When your species can determine your alignment (goblins and orcs and kobolds are almost always evil; elves and gnomes and dwarves are almost always good), it makes sense to distrust someone of mixed heritage, because you can't be sure what side they're on. The -4 Charisma and -2 Intelligence probably come from the fact that most of the humanoid races (especially the evil ones) are uncharismatic and brutish. Combining mental and physical traits from these species probably compounds the problems. When an orc has a kid with a bugbear, you can't really hope for cleverness...



> But then you've got chunks of text that suggest instead that mongrelfolk enjoy the other races and get along nicely with just about everyone because they're so open-minded and flexible.




Well, it obviously depends on the alignment of the interactor. Someone who is good and who recognizes the mongrelfolk as a sentient human being (read: most PC races) would probably be more open-minded than the general human community.



> And let's not (OK, let's) take a closer look at mongrelfolk physical attributes -- a mix of other races, right? Pointy ears, but not too pointy; longish nose, but not too longish; strong jaw, but not too strong ... eyes like this race, mouth like that race ...
> 
> And somehow that's supposed to make them ugly (-4 Char!) or prompt others to assume the worst about their racial origins?!




It's less of a blending, and more of a Frankenstienian hodge-podge from what I gather. One ear is pointy, the other is droopy and filled with fuzz; the nose might be turned-up and orc-like while the mouth is filled with sharks' teeth that keep biting your own tongue. The skin is a patchwork of shades and textures -- patches of scales, patches of fur. The head is a misshapen blob somewhere between scrambled eggs and a deflated beach ball. One eye is albino-pink, the other one is reptilian...



> Please. Try to explain this one to me. I could use a good laugh.




They are a people that, thematically, represent that idea that you are more than just your race and humanoid type. That your appearance and heritage do not dictate what you, yourself can become. They are mistrusted, but they do nothing to earn that mistrust. They are abused, and they do nothing to earn that abuse. They may not be pretty, but that doesn't mean they are worthless, and they may not have a lineage, but that doesn't mean they are untrustworthy. They are meant as a light to shine onto your fantasy society's corrupt and unfair system of merit and prestige, where an elf gets to be fencing master just because he's an elf, no matter who might be more superior at fencing. They are meant to question the paranoid fear of the commoners. They are meant to make PC's wonder if peace between the warring orc tribes and the small community might be possible, because beneath the repulsive exterior, we are all humanoids with free choice of our path in life. 

I think you're getting too caught up in the idea that this is somehow an insult to any real-world people of any heritage. It's not, because the real-world human races are not divergant at all. It's the fantasy races that are, and they are more drastically divergent than just skin color, so having a mixed-species that is different fits more in the "genetic mutation" category than it does in the "mixed race" category.

So ease up off.


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## dekrass (May 22, 2005)

I believe in 2e they were a wizardly experiment.
They had an extreme mix of features, and not all the features were humanoid.
They were also originally a slave race.
They also had very little sense of self, and their unusual features put off other races.
I think they even had a chart for random features in one of the books.


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## Mark (May 22, 2005)

The word "race" should have been dropped from D&D as a means to describe varying "species" (or whatever).  It's used too broadly in its context and, in its inadequacy, allows (perhaps even invites) people to draw inaccurate analogies with real world connotations of what "race" means to individuals.


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## VirgilCaine (May 22, 2005)

> When an orc has a kid with a bugbear, you can't really hope for cleverness...




Actually, bugbears don't have an Int penalty, Orcs only have a -2. An Ogre and an Ettin, now...


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## Silver Moon (May 22, 2005)

dekrass said:
			
		

> I believe in 2e they were a wizardly experiment.



Actually, this monster goes all the way back to 1st Edition.  "Mongrelmen" is in the 1E Monster Manual II.


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## francisca (May 22, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> But then you've got chunks of text that suggest instead that mongrelfolk enjoy the other races and get along nicely with just about everyone because they're so open-minded and flexible.



From the 1st Edition AD&D Monster Manual II


> Because of this mixture, they are seldom welcome in lawful or good societies and are usuallyabused or enslaved by chaotic and evil groups.




If I use mongrelmen in 3e, I'll be playing them like that.


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## the Jester (May 22, 2005)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> Actually, this monster goes all the way back to 1st Edition.  "Mongrelmen" is in the 1E Monster Manual II.




Originally it is from one of the A modules, actually- I believe it's _Slave Pits of the Undercity._  But I could be wrong.

So when you complain about it, what you are complaining about is the designers being faithful to a _monster_ race when translating into a _player_ race.  

Personally, I prefer it when the 3e updates attempt to stay faithful.


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## Brennin Magalus (May 22, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> Upon perusing "Races of Destiny," I finally noticed one of the supplemental race options, the Mongrelfolk. Just gotta say, "What the heck were they thinking?!"
> 
> Let's set aside first the questionable choice of referring to these people as "mongrels," which, depending on your source material (and personal experience, so sayeth a person of mixed heritage), is a bad thing. We'll let that go. No problem.




I am glad you "let that go" because anyone who takes offense at the "mongrel" in "mongrelfolk" is actively seeking to be offended.


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## Richards (May 22, 2005)

> Personally, I prefer it when the 3e updates attempt to stay faithful.



I agree wholeheartedly.

Johnathan


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## Driddle (May 22, 2005)

The writers and editors who OK'ed that particular section of text should have cycled it through a few more brain cells before publication.


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## Mokona (May 22, 2005)

I love the 3rd edition Mongrelfolk.  I've been wanting to play one for a while now.


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## TroyXavier (May 22, 2005)

I do too.  I think they're quite the fun race.   I plan on playing one at least as an NPC soon.


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## WayneLigon (May 23, 2005)

I think you're stumped for words because you haven't read the text closely enough. Mongrelfolk like and get along with everyone. Almost no-one gets along with them once they know what they are, and even when they are mistaken for another race they're going to be viewed as a freakish example of that race. Thus, the charisma hit.


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## Tonguez (May 23, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> An elf marrying a human is not really to be thought of as an interracial couple, it's to be thought of as more the difference between a chimpanzee and a human, or a horse and a donkey, or breeds of dog...enough difference to make them work quite drastically different, to make them different species in some cases, but not always enough to make them infertile. So when you think of mongrelfolk, the real-world analouge would not be a mixed racial heritage, it would be more like two breeds of dog mixing....mongrelfolk are analgous to mutts, not to mixed-race humans.




Actually all Breeds of Dog are a single species and human ethnic groups should in fact be considered more 'breed' than race (except for the negative contations of being considered a breed). The Mongrel folk are more analogous to Mules (horse/donkey mix) maybe even dog/bear mix than dog/dog


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## DMH (May 23, 2005)

dekrass said:
			
		

> I believe in 2e they were a wizardly experiment.
> They had an extreme mix of features, and not all the features were humanoid.
> They were also originally a slave race.
> They also had very little sense of self, and their unusual features put off other races.
> I think they even had a chart for random features in one of the books.




You are probably thinking of Broken Ones- the mongrelmen of Ravenloft that are human/animal hybrids.


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## Driddle (May 23, 2005)

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> (A)nyone who takes offense at the "mongrel" in "mongrelfolk" is actively seeking to be offended.




I do so wish I were around the next time someone said something that you found offensive, just so I could remind, "Oh, calm down. You're probably just looking to be offended."

 <-- This smiley means you have no reason to be offended at this response, either. The author's intent always takes precedence. Always.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 23, 2005)

They were originally in I1, Dwellers of the Forbidden City, actually, not A1. They were always a bit dopey (especially since the same module gave us the yuan-ti and the tasloi, two vastly superior races), but the current write-up of them seems like a first draft, at best. It seems the mechanics were worked out seperately from the logic and, yeah, combining the two is a car crash.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 23, 2005)

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> I am glad you "let that go" because anyone who takes offense at the "mongrel" in "mongrelfolk" is actively seeking to be offended.



It wasn't that long ago that "mongrels" were denied a lot of very basic rights in this country. Just because the word doesn't conjure up unfortunate connotations for you when it's applied to an intelligent species doesn't mean it's not reasonably conjuring up something very different when other people read it.

Other peoples' opinions and emotions aren't your call to make.


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## Hypersmurf (May 23, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> It's less of a blending, and more of a Frankenstienian hodge-podge from what I gather. One ear is pointy, the other is droopy and filled with fuzz; the nose might be turned-up and orc-like while the mouth is filled with sharks' teeth that keep biting your own tongue. The skin is a patchwork of shades and textures -- patches of scales, patches of fur. The head is a misshapen blob somewhere between scrambled eggs and a deflated beach ball. One eye is albino-pink, the other one is reptilian...




I remember the picture from the 1E Monster Manual II.

It wasn't this one, but it was similar.

-Hyp.


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## Brennin Magalus (May 23, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> It wasn't that long ago that "mongrels" were denied a lot of very basic rights in this country. Just because the word doesn't conjure up unfortunate connotations for you when it's applied to an intelligent species doesn't mean it's not reasonably conjuring up something very different when other people read it.
> 
> Other peoples' opinions and emotions aren't your call to make.




No, but they are open to criticism.


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## Brennin Magalus (May 23, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> I do so wish I were around the next time someone said something that you found offensive, just so I could remind, "Oh, calm down. You're probably just looking to be offended."
> 
> <-- This smiley means you have no reason to be offended at this response, either. The author's intent always takes precedence. Always.




Perhaps while you are hanging around you could also teach me the finer points of victimology.


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## Thotas (May 23, 2005)

I haven't checked this one out yet ... but I didn't like the mongrelmen in 1e or 2e.  Looks like there still won't be any IMC.


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## Particle_Man (May 23, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> They were originally in I1, Dwellers of the Forbidden City, actually, not A1. They were always a bit dopey (especially since the same module gave us the yuan-ti and the tasloi, two vastly superior races), but the current write-up of them seems like a first draft, at best. It seems the mechanics were worked out seperately from the logic and, yeah, combining the two is a car crash.




Maybe that car crash is a subtle bit of metanarrative to show the mongrelization of the mechanics and logic to make an unlikeable game-race from a reader's point of view, to emphasize the unlikability of the race from the game characters' (pc and npc) point of view.

Nawwwww!   

In a game world with so many "half-whatever" templates, it is rather weird to have mongrelmen exist as "failures".  It seems that interbreeding only works well when you start with one of the pc races...


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 23, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> In a game world with so many "half-whatever" templates, it is rather weird to have mongrelmen exist as "failures".  It seems that interbreeding only works well when you start with one of the pc races...



Well, a lot of people would argue that the 45,000 elf races are failures of a sort.


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## S'mon (May 23, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> Upon perusing "Races of Destiny," I finally noticed one of the supplemental race options, the Mongrelfolk. Just gotta say, "What the heck were they thinking?!"
> 
> Let's set aside first the questionable choice of referring to these people as "mongrels," which, depending on your source material (and personal experience, so sayeth a person of mixed heritage)




You're a dog of mixed breed?


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## S'mon (May 23, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> It wasn't that long ago that "mongrels" were denied a lot of very basic rights in this country...




Is this some kind of black/white thing?  You Americans are crazy...


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 23, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Is this some kind of black/white thing?  You Americans are crazy...



No argument. The good news is that it's probably going to seem as alien to our grandchildren as it does to you.

On the other hand, we'd never have a recipe for something called a spotted dick.


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## S'mon (May 23, 2005)

Last night I was at a pub where an American visitor here on vacation ate Sticky Toffee Pudding (despite imprecations from my American wife and another American resident in London & familiar with UK cuisine) - and she _liked_ it, pretty much.  I did finish it off for her though...


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## ptolemy18 (May 23, 2005)

[DELETED]

I deleted my own brief post 'cause I changed my mind after reading everyone's responses.

Jason


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## ptolemy18 (May 23, 2005)

In my own opinion....

Yes, it's obviously an offensive term in real life, and I'd understand being reluctant to use "mongrelmen" in a campaign. However, it's virtually impossible for a fantasy world not to be politically incorrect one way or another... the very idea of some races being innately evil, or innately stupid... unless you're either intentionally blanding the fantasy down to be inoffensive, or you're intentionally doing an "explosion of fantasy stereotypes" like, say, Samuel Delany's DHALGREN (starring two gay barbarians, a female fighter with a vulva-shaped double-sword, etc. etc.) 

For my part... in case this shows where I'm coming from... I really liked in LORD OF THE RINGS: THE TWO TOWERS when they went ahead and had the "evil men from the east" with their turbans and elephants. Very gutsy not to water down Tolkein's original text with its "evil foreigners" vibe.

And, on the other hand, I *also* really liked the moment in LORD OF THE RINGS: RETURN OF THE KING when they showed the orc with long blonde hair. It was a very good way to defuse the potential racism in the idea of something like orcs. That's how I would have done it. 'Cause it's important to show you can be a degenerate, barbaric, inherently evil, filthy subhuman AND have long, straight blonde hair. 

Personally, I wouldn't have mongrelmen in my campaign, but only 'cause I'm trying to cut down the number of demi-humans. In fact, in my campaign, which is set in a pseudo-Europe, I'm assuming that all Anglo-Saxons and Germans and other northern tribes are orcs and half-orcs.... 

Aww, no, I got involved in a pseudo-political argument...! MUST... STOP... POSTING!!! 

Jason


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## S'mon (May 23, 2005)

ptolemy18 said:
			
		

> 'Cause it's important to show you can be a degenerate, barbaric, inherently evil, filthy subhuman AND have long, straight blonde hair.




This is a pretty common stereotype, anyway.   :\ 
(BTW "blonde" is the feminine form).

Last week IMC the Viking Horde of blond Aryans led by a crazed warlord (a Player Character) descended on the peaceful quasi-Buddhist Kingdom of Tantok, slaughtered loads of people and sacked the fair city of Panyong.  As far as I'm concerned, just because they don't have green skin and tusks doesn't make them morally superior to orcs.  Although I suppose orcs might have eaten the Governor when he refused to cooperate rather than just throw him in a dungeon.  The PC-led horde then proceeded to the capital city, where they've been bought off by Tribute (a snip at 800,000gp), at least for now.


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## Gez (May 23, 2005)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> Sometimes, 2nd edition is still superior. In 2e they didn't have their very own GOD.




Yes they had. Meriadar was his name.
You can read the complete Monstrous Mythology excerpt about him on oracle.wizards.com.

Here's the first paragraph:
Meriadar (The Peaceful God, The Patient One, the Master Artisan) Intermediate Power of Arcadia, LN

Portfolio: Mongrelmen, non-evil humanoids, patience, meditation, tolerance, arts and crafts Aliases: None Domain Name: Buxenus/The Hand of Peace Superior: None Allies: Eldath, Ilmater, Torm, Tyr, Oghma, Gond, Milil, Lathander, Eilistraee, Psilofyr Foes: Virtually every goblinoid god, Vaprak, the drow pantheon (except Eilistraee), Ilsensine, Loviatar Symbol: A decorated wide-mouthed bowl Wor. Alignment: LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN

Meriadar (Mer-AYE-uh-dar) is both the patron god of mongrelmen, and, by later accretion, all non-evil goblinoids. Meriadar teaches that all souls are capable of redemption, even those who are members of races that are supposedly predisposed to evil. Therefore his faithful, originally confined to the mongrelmen race, has blossomed in recent millennia to include members of virtually every humanoid race, a substantial portion of whom are goblinoids who have turned their back upon the evil ways of their individual races. Meriadar and his followers do not judge on appearances, for a true heart can be found behind the most hideous facade and in a member of the darkest and most vile races.​


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## diaglo (May 23, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Originally it is from one of the A modules, actually- I believe it's _Slave Pits of the Undercity._  But I could be wrong.
> 
> So when you complain about it, what you are complaining about is the designers being faithful to a _monster_ race when translating into a _player_ race.
> 
> Personally, I prefer it when the 3e updates attempt to stay faithful.





iirc Markessa was to blame for their creation.

edit: memory is the first thing to go....


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## Jolly Giant (May 23, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Last week IMC the Viking Horde of blond Aryans led by a crazed warlord (a Player Character) descended on the peaceful quasi-Buddhist Kingdom of Tantok, slaughtered loads of people and sacked the fair city of Panyong.  As far as I'm concerned, just because they don't have green skin and tusks doesn't make them morally superior to orcs.  Although I suppose orcs might have eaten the Governor when he refused to cooperate rather than just throw him in a dungeon.  The PC-led horde then proceeded to the capital city, where they've been bought off by Tribute (a snip at 800,000gp), at least for now.




This is just blatant Viking-bashing! I'm offended!


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## Ovinomancer (May 23, 2005)

Jolly Giant said:
			
		

> This is just blatant Viking-bashing! I'm offended!




I agree!  *Real* viking most definiately would have eaten the governor!


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## S'mon (May 23, 2005)

Jolly Giant said:
			
		

> This is just blatant Viking-bashing! I'm offended!




Well the player, Lars, is a Norwegian aristocrat... and his PC, Sigurd, is a Norse King.   So it's, err... intra-ethnic stereotyping?


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## Driddle (May 23, 2005)

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> No, but they are open to criticism.




"_Are open to_" and "_require_" are not interchangeable. ... Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


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## Vraille Darkfang (May 23, 2005)

If you can find it, the Humanoids Handbook has a much better picture of a Mongrelman (or MongrelFOLK as the new PC race is called).

It even had a chart for you to randomly determine what each piece of your body came from.  I had one with a Crabman Arm, Ogre Leg (the other was a goblin's), my head was from 3 different creatures.

Originally, Mongrelmen were Magical experiments gone wild (think Frankenstein). They were not even a 'race' per se.  At some point TSR/WotC decided to make them a 'race' and allowed them to breed true.

If you've seen the orgins of mongrelfolk, you won't seen what you're seeing.


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## Gez (May 23, 2005)

The ToH version of the Mongrelmen have the random body part table.


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## Driddle (May 23, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> It even had a chart for you to randomly determine what each piece of your body came from.  I had one with a Crabman Arm, Ogre Leg (the other was a goblin's), my head was from 3 different creatures.
> 
> Originally, Mongrelmen were Magical experiments gone wild (think Frankenstein). They were not even a 'race' per se.  ...




Heck, I can get behind that concept. Makes it more of a magical construction issue (chaotic patchwork) rather than a interracial breeding issue. 

Unfortunately, such an explanatory background was totally lacking in the "Destiny" product. The editing/writing crew made a big mistake in trying to toss off "mongrels" as a mixed race.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (May 23, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> "_Are open to_" and "_require_" are not interchangeable. ... Just because you can doesn't mean you should.




And yet, that's his decision to make - just as this thread was yours.

And as the decision to post this was mine.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (May 23, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, such an explanatory background was totally lacking in the "Destiny" product. The editing/writing crew made a big mistake in trying to toss off "mongrels" as a mixed race.




They *are* mixed race.

They're orc, ogre, human, elf, hominid, dragon, and any of a dozen other things dropped into a blender and set on frappe.

Perhaps some mongrelfolk result from magical experimentation, perhaps others are the runts of orog litters, and still others are what you get when a half-orc does his thing with a halfling.


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## Von Ether (May 23, 2005)

Tonguez said:
			
		

> Actually all Breeds of Dog are a single species and human ethnic groups should in fact be considered more 'breed' than race (except for the negative contations of being considered a breed). The Mongrel folk are more analogous to Mules (horse/donkey mix) maybe even dog/bear mix than dog/dog




In this regard, how readers/players look at mongrel men represent "modernization of fantasy" so to speak. How we apply our 20th century, politicaly correct views on a much harsher time.

In that vein, it might be easier to look at them from a SF angle, like the moreaus of d20 Modern. A poor soul who's walking around with a face only a monther could love that's come from soup of genetics from all sorts of animals and humonids.


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## Vraille Darkfang (May 23, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> They *are* mixed race.
> 
> They're orc, ogre, human, elf, hominid, dragon, and any of a dozen other things dropped into a blender and set on frappe.
> 
> Perhaps some mongrelfolk result from magical experimentation, perhaps others are the runts of orog litters, and still others are what you get when a half-orc does his thing with a halfling.




Not quite:

Think of Sausage (not in that way either).

Franks are so finally ground you can't tell what is in them, it all blends into 1 distinctive whole.

Home-made Brats are coarsley ground and have distinctive bits of Peppers, Garlic, Herbs, Lamb, Pork, etc spread throughout.  While a unique whole the parts that make up the whole are easily apperent.

Mangrelmen were brats.

Unlike interbreeding (say half-orcs & half-elves), there is no true 'mixing' going on.  It is not a 'blending' of two races.  It's taking whole parts and gluing them together.

From your Blender example:

Half-Orc:  Blender on liquify, poured in glass.

Mongrelman: Man with Butcherknife and toothpicks.

Thus, the complaint of the poster, that Mogrelfolk are a slight against those of 'mixed' race is totally incorrect.  While the blurb in Races of Destiny CAN be read that way, if you (like me) can go back to the orginal source material, you see the orginal was more based on taking the Monster Manual, putting it through a chipper & then trying to piece the pictures together.

Races of Destiny just wanted to make them a more 'attractive' player character race, as opposed to a monster, NO TWO OF WHICH ARE A LIKE (in the Orginal Monster Manual description).  Thus they made them more like if you made the Hunchback of Notre Dame a PC race, than the sewer-mutants they, indeed are.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (May 23, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Is this some kind of black/white thing?  You Americans are crazy...




Nah, just someone looking to be offended...


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## Driddle (May 23, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> And yet, that's his decision to make - just as this thread was yours.
> 
> And as the decision to post this was mine.




The difference, dearheart, is that in my initial post I did not offhandedly dismiss the validity of anyone's sensibilities here. I did not open this thread by suggesting YOU were being oversensitive or that YOU had no reason to be offended. ... After my post, however, at least a few people thought it was important that they step up and dismiss my concerns, assuming that I was speaking from an artificially created postion of "political correctness." THAT is the difference.

"Politically correct" is too often used as a meaningless cliche by those who are offended at someone else being offended -- implying that somehow the initial feeling of offense is unwarranted. As it's used in this thread, "PC" is dismissive instead of constructively descriptive.

And as long as we've spun off onto the tangent, here's something to chew on the next time you (generic "you," i.e. anyone here, not just Elvenshe) use the term or hear it used:

"Politically correct," in the strictest sense of its definition and origin, involves broad social and political changes to redress injustices caused by prejudice. Pay close attention to "broad social and political changes" (via American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms). The fact that an individual may find a term questionable does not immediately cast his concerns into the arena of broad social or political changes -- his concerns may only need to be addressed in a very limited one-on-one, interpersonal context.

And even though PC may involve avoiding offensive language, the inverse does not necessarily hold true, that avoiding offensive language must be PC. It's a subtle logic construction that a lot of folk can't seem to grasp.

The American Heritage Dictionary of English Usage (a different book from the Idiom text) further clarifies that PC is a matter of perception by the second party: "perceived as being overconcerned."

This constuct can't be stressed enough: One guy expresses concern over a matter of offense. The second guy labels the first as PC. ... The latter is an implied insult, that the first guy's concerns are unfounded and/or silly in the extreme.

This thread should probably be tied down shortly, as I expect a few more angry responses by (heh - this is rich) ... people who are offended at me being offended that someone was offended at my initial concerns. Personal attacks will follow, and we'll be reminded by the moderators to play nice.

... all because I think the descriptive text and game mechanics of "Mongrelmen" is pretty frippin' stupid.


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## Driddle (May 23, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> While the blurb in Races of Destiny CAN be read that way, if you (like me) can go back to the orginal source material, you see the orginal was ...




One should not need to refer to original source material for the product in hand. The current product, sans historical geeky perspective, was badly composed.


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## Vraille Darkfang (May 23, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> One should not need to refer to original source material for the product in hand. The current product, sans historical geeky perspective, was badly composed.




True,

  But I HAVE that perpective & when I read it, I saw none of what you talked about in your orginal post.  However, AFTER reading your post, I do see how people could easily read it & see it the way you did.

  And you are right, the entry seemed poorly put together.  In fact, when I read it, It didn't even stick in my head.  I just dismissed it, if anyone in my game really wanted to play a Mongrelfolk, I'd convert it from the 2nd ed Humanoid's Handbook.

I'm not trying to dismiss your 'Political Correctness' to use the term, either.  I think making 'mixed' race they way they did in Races of Destiny, and calling it a 'mogrel' can alienate a large portion of the populace.

So, give my the 2nd ed Mongrelman any day.  (Also, notice me and others keep saying MongrelMAN rather than MongrelFOLK?  That's what they were called, just like LizardMAN.  WotC appears to have made a blanket decsion that all monster-men should be converted to monster-folk.  I think the 2nd ed Mongrel-whatever where gender nuetral, the mad wizard apperently didn't stick everything on he could have).


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## Henry (May 23, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> This thread should probably be tied down shortly, as I expect a few more angry responses by (heh - this is rich) ... people who are offended at me being offended that someone was offended at my initial concerns. Personal attacks will follow, and we'll be reminded by the moderators to play nice.




*Freakin' PRESCIENT, you are!* 

Since you started it, if you think you've got your questions answered here, I can close it for you, and if someone else feels like continuing a discussion of Mongrelfolk in D&D, then they can feel free to open their own thread. Or, if you want to let this thread continue, without any political comments or personal insults, then I can get behind that, too.

But regardless, ladies and gents, let's please step back from the personal insults; it goes nowhere fast.

Thank you.


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## Driddle (May 23, 2005)

(Stunned by reasonable, non-angry response and ability to switch perspectives; insert crying smiley icon here)

Gawd bless you, VD. Thank you for ... for ... ah, heck. My faith in humanity has been restored.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 23, 2005)

The notion that a bunch of humanoids humping away indiscriminantly would produce a race of random parts is beyond silly. It's not as bad as it is in D20M, if that description of Moreaus is correct -- the Modern game should at least TRY and have a passing awareness of how genetics work.

In D&D, it's not quite so bad, but all of the half-races we've seen in the past have either been relatively close (although humans interbreeding with orcs and elves and ogres has always suggested troubling things to me about where humans came from to begin with) or have been clearly magical. (No half-golem's daddy is an iron golem, for instance.)

Can we all just agree that mongrel* is a pretty stupid critter, whatever the edition?


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## Dark Psion (May 23, 2005)

Dragon Magazine #242 had an Ecology of Mongrelmen and offered an alternative origin.

They were created to be a greater form of Doppleganger. While Dopplegangers are master shapeshifters, they can only take the form of a human, demi-human or humanoid. This new race of Infiltrators would be able to actually "become" that race. This "Race shifting" was accomplished by eating the flesh of each of these races. 

While the original Infiltrators did possess this supeior form of shapeshifting, Their children did not. They did however inherit some of the racial traits of all the races their ancestor had aquired.

The article includes a "Designing a Mongrelman" appendix and 2e stats for the original Infiltrator race.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 23, 2005)

Dark Psion said:
			
		

> Dragon Magazine #242 had an Ecology of Mongrelmen and offered an alternative origin.
> 
> They were created to be a greater form of Doppleganger. While Dopplegangers are master shapeshifters, they can only take the form of a human, demi-human or humanoid. This new race of Infiltrators would be able to actually "become" that race. This "Race shifting" was accomplished by eating the flesh of each of these races.
> 
> While the original Infiltrators did possess this supeior form of shapeshifting, Their children did not. They did however inherit some of the racial traits of all the races their ancestor had aquired.



Vastly superior, and it nicely ties into the Changelings, giving the two races a relationship that not all members will be aware of.


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## werk (May 23, 2005)

Thotas said:
			
		

> I haven't checked this one out yet ... but I didn't like the mongrelmen in 1e or 2e.  Looks like there still won't be any IMC.




"I don't know what I'm talking about, but I already have an opinion."

LMAO


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## gizmo33 (May 23, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> Upon perusing "Races of Destiny," I finally noticed one of the supplemental race options, the Mongrelfolk. Just gotta say, "What the heck were they thinking?!"
> (snip)
> We'll let that go. No problem.




Writing and posting is not the same as letting something go.  That sort of indirection loses it in the translation from the kind of games people play when they're talking and the kind of games that a person can play when writing.

"Racial" issues are definitely a part of the writings of Tolkien and RE Howard (at least) - two of the pillars of traditional fantasy.  Many of the ideas of racial memory and cutural steotypes and so on are standard parts of fantasy.  "Racial" concepts have a near mythic quality - and any other concept that has as much legend and magic associated with it certainly shows up in a game about magic and other archaic belief systems - so why not race?  The idea of witchcraft and curses have certainly caused as much death and misery within societies as the idea of race.  Perhaps one is not as safely in the rear-view mirror of history as the other.



			
				Driddle said:
			
		

> And somehow that's supposed to make them ugly (-4 Char!) or prompt others to assume the worst about their racial origins?!
> 
> Please. Try to explain this one to me. I could use a good laugh.




Yea, it sounds like there are two competing ideas for what "mongrelfolk" type being would be about.  Both the "Frankenstein's monster" and "blend of characteristics" model makes sense (well, as much sense as magic missle makes) - but I agree that the two together make no sense.  I guess as a DM you can pick one or another (or both, probably with different names) - it would depend on whatever campaign history you wanted to use.


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## Richards (May 24, 2005)

Originally posted by Dark Psion:







> Dragon Magazine #242 had an Ecology of Mongrelmen and offered an alternative origin.
> 
> They were created to be a greater form of Doppleganger. While Dopplegangers are master shapeshifters, they can only take the form of a human, demi-human or humanoid. This new race of Infiltrators would be able to actually "become" that race. This "Race shifting" was accomplished by eating the flesh of each of these races.
> 
> ...



Yep, that was one of mine.  I came up with the "alternate origin" of the mongrelman because I really disliked the "official" origin - that the mongrelman race arose from breeding among different races.  I could see that up to a point - D&D has allowed for humans and elves to interbreed, and humans and orcs (and Dark Sun even had a human/dwarf race, the "mul") - but since most mongrelman illustrations invariably included a crabman's pincer and/or lizardman scales, I couldn't for the life of me figure out how there was logically supposed to be a viable race created by the breeding of mammals, reptiles, and crustaceans!

I'm glad to hear that the article is still seeing some use.

Johnathan


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## DMH (May 24, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Can we all just agree that mongrel* is a pretty stupid critter, whatever the edition?




Sure. The Orlins from one of the Creature Weeklys (on rpgnow) is a much better version that explains that most humanoids (including trolls for some reason) are all divergent strains from one species. The orlin (sp?) is the result of them rehybridizing and producing something similar to the original species.


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