# Playing with a new style [Update - switching to it on 12 Nov]



## Morrus

I've been toying with a new forum header layout which has the goal of reducing the vertical size of the header.   So far, I've managed to reduce it by about a third - which is a start, but not as much as I'd like.  I did that mainly by conflating all three(!) navigation menus into one menu which uses dropdowns.

Anyway.  Right now it's literally just me playing around.  But feel free to look at it.  Just switch your style over to "Dev Style".

I don't promise everything will work in that style.


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## Elodan

Needs some tweaking but I like it.


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## Morrus

Elodan said:


> Needs some tweaking but I like it.




Now, now, don't be coy!  What issues are you seeing there?


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## Elodan

At first I thought the top header menu was supposed to meet the bottom of the logo area but then I realized that might be intentional and it actually makes sense.
The borders around the header menu options should match the rest of the site (orange on the black style).
When I look at the plain black on the left side of the logo area it seems like something should be there.
The reference menu could use a separator or two.  I think things get lost if you don't have something to break up a list of more than 5 items.
Does the Reference menu need a links option, shouldn't that be under links?  There are a couple of other places where an option is under multiple menus, seems redundant.
Notifications are no longer showing.  Perhaps they can be their own menu.
I use the settings link to quickly get to my control panel to see my subscribed forums.  I'd prefer that as a link on the main screen but it's not a deal breaker as getting to it under the Profile menu doesn't require the extra click I thought it would.


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## Dice4Hire

I think I would prefer to see the words a bit brighter, like the older styles are. Otherwise I support making the header as small as possible. 

But looks good to me


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## Sammael

I've been a proponent of reducing the page header and integrating the various menus into one, and I love this change.


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## Morrus

Elodan said:


> Notifications are no longer showing.  Perhaps they can be their own menu.




That's worrying. Could somebody quote me and/or tag me so I can verify this?


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## Morrus

I might be able to do it my tagging myself.  If that work; never tried it.
 [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]


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## Morrus

Notifications seem to be working fine.
 [MENTION=8006]Elodan[/MENTION], did you get a notification of this mention?  What notification did you not receive that should have?


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## Elodan

Morrus said:


> Notifications seem to be working fine.
> @Elodan , did you get a notification of this mention?  What notification did you not receive that should have?




It wasn't that I wasn't getting any (I post too infrequently to have much activity) but that the drop down wasn't there at all.  It is now and I got them for the XP, mention and quote.


Edit:
It looks like the notifications and private message menus share the same space which notifications showing when you one and private messages when you don't.  Probably why I was confused.


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## Morrus

Elodan said:


> It looks like the notifications and private message menus share the same space which notifications showing when you one and private messages when you don't.  Probably why I was confused.




Ah.  Yep, it's always done that.


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## Nagol

Looks nice and it's good to get some screen real estate back.


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## Mark CMG

Agreed.  More compact but doesn't feel too tight.  Nicely done!


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## Dragoslav

I had trouble at first finding how to get to the forum from the main page now that the "messageboard" link up at the top is hidden in the "Main" dropdown box. Now that I know where it is, it's fine, although slightly more inconvenient due to having to hover over the dropdown menu and then select the forums.


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## Deset Gled

Looks like we finally lost the links to Prismatic Wars and Conquest, although they're still there if you can find the pages (google, notification links, etc).


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## freyar

I managed to find it, but I'd suggest putting the "logout" option in someplace more visible than under "profile."  Not a biggie, though.


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## delericho

Is it still possible to access the 'skins' for the pages? I liked using "Son of Black" (or whatever it was called), as it was rather less conspicuous.

If these are gone, is there any chance of getting them back?


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## mach1.9pants

Well done the new layout, love it


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## Alan Shutko

delericho said:


> Is it still possible to access the 'skins' for the pages? I liked using "Son of Black" (or whatever it was called), as it was rather less conspicuous.
> 
> If these are gone, is there any chance of getting them back?




I also wonder, because I much prefer a light background to a black background.


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## trancejeremy

My eyes just can't take white text on a dark background. Any chance of getting a black on white style?


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## Traveon Wyvernspur

trancejeremy said:


> My eyes just can't take white text on a dark background. Any chance of getting a black on white style?




THIS!!! I can't read the light on dark, it strains my eyes so bad that I don't even want to read the forums


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## Morrus

Don't get all excited and frantic, folks.   You're welcome to switch back to the lighter styles.


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## Morrus

I so want to make a joke about use of CAPS and EXCLAMATION!!!!!!  POINTS!!!!!!! straining my eyes so bad I don't even want to read the forums, but I just know somebody will get upset if I do.  So I won't.


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## Jeff Carlsen

I like the dropdown menu. My only complaint is that the dropdowns appear on hover, which mean I'm often opening them accidentally. I would much prefer if they opened on a click event.


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## Dragoslav

I see that the dropdown menus have been replaced with convenient links. I like the change.


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## Morrus

I literally exist in a madhouse!


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## darjr

I LOVE THE MADHOUSE WITH THE CASCADING FORUM LINK!!! 

NICE!! THANKS!!



I really do like it.


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## Morrus

I've whacked it up into the top right, sharing the header table, giving us an extra 0.75cm or so. At this point, I think I've saved as much vertical space as is possible with this software.  I do worry that having it that close to the ad banner will distract from it, but we do have as tight a header as I think we're ever likely to have.


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## fba827

In the top bar menu, under Profile, the second option currently says "Settings"  Any chance you would _consider_ changing it to "User Control Panel" or "Control Panel" or "Settings & User Control Panel" or some variation thereof?

I ask simply because I use the User Control Panel for all my subscribed forums and threads (rather than the main forum list) and it took me a bit to realize that the control panel link was under settings.

I mean, it's not impossible to figure out (and is simply a matter of relearning), just mentioning it in case other people were having the same difficulty as I was (which i'm guessing was also happening in this other thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/meta/331698-so-i-cant-acess-my-subscibed-threads.html )


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## Morrus

fba827 said:


> In the top bar menu, under Profile, the second option currently says "Settings"  Any chance you would _consider_ changing it to "User Control Panel" or "Control Panel" or "Settings & User Control Panel" or some variation thereof?
> 
> I ask simply because I use the User Control Panel for all my subscribed forums and threads (rather than the main forum list) and it took me a bit to realize that the control panel link was under settings.
> 
> I mean, it's not impossible to figure out (and is simply a matter of relearning), just mentioning it in case other people were having the same difficulty as I was (which i'm guessing was also happening in this other thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/meta/331698-so-i-cant-acess-my-subscibed-threads.html )




I'm not trying to be disagreeable - but the previous menu said "Settings", too. We've used "Settings" in menus here now for a period of time measured in years. This particular thing isn't a change!

I could prove it by switching back to the menu you've been using for the last few years up until this week. That one says "Settings", too!


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## Dice4Hire

I would second the request that the menus open on a click not a hover.


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## tomBitonti

Umm, not sure if I'm from Mars on this or what, but I really don't like the new layout.  Don't really mean to be a negative nanny, but ...

Putting the main navigation menu next to advertiser content seems a bit rude.

Putting the pop-up menus over that advertiser content makes it worse.

Buying a small amount of real estate by shrinking a main navigation section doesn't seem to be a bargain.  I want the main navigation to be clearly visible.  I don't know if within the available technology, but what would be preferable would be to start larger and to have an option to shrink it or relocate it.

Black/dark grey/white is harder to read than necessary (and seems to violate usability standards).  Especially next to an area likely to be very busy and bright.

Thx!

TomB


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## Morrus

tomBitonti said:


> Putting the main navigation menu next to advertiser content seems a bit rude.
> 
> Putting the pop-up menus over that advertiser content makes it worse.




That seems to average out to me!  Those complaints, to my mind, cancel each other out.  But still, there is no attempt on my part to be rude to you (there might be a mild attempt to be erotic to you, though - is it working?)

The header size has been a major and repeated complaint for years.  Folks with lower-res browsers saw nothing but header.  That extra inch to you is a world of difference to many other users.  This may be part of the eroticism I mentioned earlier.

Hey, I have a ginormous monitor and view the site at very high res. I struggle to understand when people complain about real estate on a screen which looks wide, empty, desolate, and spread-out to me.  I have to remember that not everybody views the site on my computer.



> Black/dark grey/white is harder to read than necessary



You understand that's been the site's colours since 2000, right?  It's a little late to be complaining about the colour scheme!  It was presumably that colour when you got here in 2003.  Why wait nine years to bring it up?


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## fba827

Morrus said:


> I'm not trying to be disagreeable - but the previous menu said "Settings", too. We've used "Settings" in menus here now for a period of time measured in years. This particular thing isn't a change!
> 
> I could prove it by switching back to the menu you've been using for the last few years up until this week. That one says "Settings", too!




I fully realized that fact after I made my prior post.

I guess just that since that it was in one place before i was just mindlessly clicking on it, but now that i had to hunt around for it i was looking for something that said "User Control Panel" since that is what the page is called when you go to it.

Anyway, no big deal. Just a matter of relearning where the link is so that I can mindlessly click on it there instead


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## Sammael

I have two issues at this time:

1. The navigation bar is not always in the top right corner for me. It switches between that position and being vertically centered on the right side. Now, it's possible that has something to do with AdBlock, but I am currently still a community supporter (at least my tag says so), so ads shouldn't be loading for me anyway. Not a big deal in any case.

2. Cascading menus are rarely a good thing on the web, so I'd avoid them if I were you. They work differently on different platforms, hover behavior can be strange, and they often open on top of one another in unexpected ways. The RPG Books sub-menu one under Things We Make can be easily integrated into the top menu since it doesn't have too many items. D&D Collector guides should just link to the forum post which indexes all the categories. Messageboards one can also be integrated into the top menu, since we only have 10 subforums at this time.


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## tomBitonti

Morrus said:


> That seems to average out to me!  Those complaints, to my mind, cancel each other out.  But still, there is no attempt on my part to be rude to you (there might be a mild attempt to be erotic to you, though - is it working?)
> 
> The header size has been a major and repeated complaint for years.  Folks with lower-res browsers saw nothing but header.  That extra inch to you is a world of difference to many other users.  This may be part of the eroticism I mentioned earlier.
> 
> Hey, I have a ginormous monitor and view the site at very high res. I struggle to understand when people complain about real estate on a screen which looks wide, empty, desolate, and spread-out to me.  I have to remember that not everybody views the site on my computer.
> 
> You understand that's been the site's colours since 2000, right?  It's a little late to be complaining about the colour scheme!  It was presumably that colour when you got here in 2003.  Why wait nine years to bring it up?




Having posted, and thought about my post a bit, I do think my presentation was a little harsh.  But, I still have trouble with the new layout.  I don't think I can remove the actual critique, but I can try to explain a little better.

"Rude" was not meant in any technically specifically way.  That was to convey a level of distaste.  When I look to the new menu, my eyes are forced to travel across an ad.  Looking at the current ad, the text "TV ON YOUR TERMS" is in a large and easy to read font that draws my eyes.  The rather small and blockish font of the menus is hard to pick out.  I'm finding that ad intrusion into a basic and often used function to be rather annoying.  Like a door-to-door salesman who won't let you close the door.

About the colors ... white on black I'm used to.  The menu uses a different shade for the background, a slightly lighter shade of grey.  The menu font is smallish.  (Maybe 60% of the posting text?)  The combination of lessened contrast and small font make for text that is hard for me to read.

Anyways, thanks for the reply!  Great that your are trying new layouts.  One of the costs of learning is trying new stuff out.  Though, I still don't like the current layout.

Thx!

TomB


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## delericho

Something seems to have changed overnight, so now the "Child of Black" scheme doesn't work again. I mean, I can select it and all, but all the text in the menus and such stays white. Which isn't terribly useful on a white background. 

Oh, I also checked the "Hide in Shadows" scheme, and it has the same problem.

Obviously, I've reverted back to "New Style" in the meantime.


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## steeldragons

Coupla observations and friendly suggestions. 

1: Love the new menu bar and the hover-over drop downs. Nice job.

2: Is there a reason for the "grey" background of the menu? I'm not seeing why it shouldn't match the background of the rest of the header.

3: I _really_ dislike the positioning. I get that you're playing around with the vertical space, but even just putting the menu below the ad space would be worlds of an improvement to my (graphically disposed designer) eyes. Some kind of space for between them too. And , again, I get that you want to minimize the vertical space of the header, but having the menu (especially on top) slapped right along the ad is....visually confusing and (to place a subjective judgement on it) just bad...though I'm sure your advertisers are very pleased with all the attention  going straight to their ad immediately whenever you need the menu.  

3a: Also not 100% on why the menu (or the ad for that matter) are justified to the right and not centered or placed, statically, immediately next to the E.N. World logo. I don't see the benefit of that and personally think you would want the menu front and center at all times as opposed to floating around.

That's all I see right now. Now some coffee.
Cheers n' have a good day.
--SD
But I do implore you to, at least, put the menu below the ad.


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## Morrus

steeldragons said:


> 3a: Also not 100% on why the menu (or the ad for that matter) are justified to the right and not centered or placed, statically, immediately next to the E.N. World logo. I don't see the benefit of that and personally think you would want the menu front and center at all times as opposed to floating around.




I've been moving it about - it was to the left yesterday, and lower down earlier, too.  I find myself quite liking it being right-aligned, though, for some reason - my eyes seem to go to it more easily.  I did try centering it, but I really felt it made the header look messy and crowded there.

My favourite but is the menu of links to Echohawk's collectors' guides in the REFERENCE section.  I actually spend time just hovering and unhovering over that bit for fun! (I don't know what that says about me....)


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## CAFRedblade

I think I'd prefer the menu below the ad.  The current placement may lead to accidental clicks on the ad banner, which usually only frustrates users.  

Small debug, the down arrow on the 'Things we make' disappears on hover which I think is unintentional, as the ones on the other menu options do not do the same.   

Otherwise, I'm liking everything with the smaller condensed menu bar.  

I kinda liked the placement yesterday where it was below the logo/advert area.  The menu bar background could stretch fully across to keep it consistent.


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## jbear

Sorry to be a pain. I'm just here to complain about the complaining which seems to have lead to a big colour change.

Everything has gone white. I can't figure out how to get back to a dark background.

Is this just a test? Are we going back to a normal background soon? I hope so. Just my two cents; I don't mind any of the reformatting but I don't like the change to a white background at all.


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## Mark CMG

Mine still has the black and gold color scheme and now has the hover-over dropdown menus above a banner ad.  It all seems to work well and I like how the layout has reclaimed some real estate.


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## Nellisir

Morrus said:


> I've been moving it about - it was to the left yesterday, and lower down earlier, too.  I find myself quite liking it being right-aligned, though, for some reason - my eyes seem to go to it more easily.  I did try centering it, but I really felt it made the header look messy and crowded there.
> 
> My favourite but is the menu of links to Echohawk's collectors' guides in the REFERENCE section.  I actually spend time just hovering and unhovering over that bit for fun! (I don't know what that says about me....)




It is currently 9:23pm EST, and at the tone your menu placement will be....

Actually, it's top-right at the moment, and I rather like it there.  Seems like it was lower down earlier today, and that seemed rather arbitrary.

I noticed that link just a few minutes ago!  Idly mousing over links, and suddenly this endless menu just drops down from nowhere!  I had to go back and find it just to see what it was.  Will check them out later.

So far, the changes have been either unnoticed, no big hassle, or good for me.


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## Scott DeWar

I like this 'cleaner' tool bar.


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## Morrus

jbear said:


> Sorry to be a pain. I'm just here to complain about the complaining which seems to have lead to a big colour change.
> 
> Everything has gone white. I can't figure out how to get back to a dark background.
> 
> Is this just a test? Are we going back to a normal background soon? I hope so. Just my two cents; I don't mind any of the reformatting but I don't like the change to a white background at all.




We haven't changed to a white background.  Maybe you've switched styles?


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## jbear

Morrus said:


> We haven't changed to a white background.  Maybe you've switched styles?



Really? No ... very very strange!

I logged onto the site and it was all suddenly just changed. White background. Never touched a thing. Very wierd. I'll have a poke around again and try and figure out what happened.

Edit:My profile page is also pretty messed  up.

The quotes/mentions etc are no  longer organised under tabs. You have to scroll down to the bottom of the page to read them. 

Also when I hit the message tab that comes up on the top right hand side of the page with the new notifications (eg. you have 2 mentions) only the script shows making it very difficult to read above the adds.

Could this all be related?

It seems like I am seeing the printable version of the page. Except when I go up to thread options  I still have the option to see the printable   version of the page.

A bit disconcerting that I am the only one having this issue. I've never had  anything like this happen before


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## jbear

Yay! It's gone back to normal!


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## Deset Gled

Morrus said:


> The header size has been a major and repeated complaint for years.  Folks with lower-res browsers saw nothing but header.  That extra inch to you is a world of difference to many other users.  This may be part of the eroticism I mentioned earlier.
> 
> Hey, I have a ginormous monitor and view the site at very high res. I struggle to understand when people complain about real estate on a screen which looks wide, empty, desolate, and spread-out to me.  I have to remember that not everybody views the site on my computer.




Well, if we're on the subject of screen real estate, I have to say that the right-hand banner is a much bigger issue on my laptop than the header ever was.  On a 13" screen it takes up an inordinate percentage of the page width.  And if I turn on the side panel in Opera, it actually forces a scroll bar and has overlap issues.  This was never an issue before the "Find ENWorld On" banner was in place.


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## Morrus

Deset Gled said:


> Well, if we're on the subject of screen real estate, I have to say that the right-hand banner is a much bigger issue on my laptop than the header ever was. On a 13" screen it takes up an inordinate percentage of the page width. And if I turn on the side panel in Opera, it actually forces a scroll bar and has overlap issues. This was never an issue before the "Find ENWorld On" banner was in place.




A 13" screen reduced by an additional Opera sidepanel?  For spaces that tiny, I'd recommend checking out Tapatalk; it's perfect for the job.


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## Thanee

What happened with the streamlined dice roller display?

It suddenly shows the full display for me, even though the setting is still set to streamlined. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Scott DeWar

Thanee said:


> What happened with the streamlined dice roller display?
> 
> It suddenly shows the full display for me, even though the setting is still set to streamlined.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




mine too.


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## delericho

There's still an issue with the "Child of Black" style (and, I would guess, "Hide in Shadows") - everything is fine except for the menu bar at the top, which has white text on a white background. I can manage with it as-is, because "Messageboards" is the longest entry, but is there any chance of getting the menus to change to black text with those styles?


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## mudbunny

delericho said:


> Something seems to have changed overnight, so now the "Child of Black" scheme doesn't work again. I mean, I can select it and all, but all the text in the menus and such stays white. Which isn't terribly useful on a white background.
> 
> Oh, I also checked the "Hide in Shadows" scheme, and it has the same problem.
> 
> Obviously, I've reverted back to "New Style" in the meantime.




I am also having this problem.


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## Morrus

The light styles are fan-created - nothing to do with me! I don't possess the ability or skills to alter them.


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## JamesonCourage

Dice4Hire said:


> I would second the request that the menus open on a click not a hover.



Going to second this opinion. I haven't had much time on the site recently (moved, and internet just arrived), but I always have a ton of tabs open, and then going to switch between them, the menus opening on their own is pretty annoying. Not a deal breaker or anything, but if you're looking for feedback, just throwing mine in.


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## Morrus

JamesonCourage said:


> Going to second this opinion. I haven't had much time on the site recently (moved, and internet just arrived), but I always have a ton of tabs open, and then going to switch between them, the menus opening on their own is pretty annoying. Not a deal breaker or anything, but if you're looking for feedback, just throwing mine in.




But then you couldn't click on:

Messageboards
- all submenus under that
Referencence
- D&D Collectors Guides
Things We make
- all submenus under that

How would you get to the forums, for example, if clicking on "MESSAGEBOARDS" opened a menu rather than took you to the boards?


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## JamesonCourage

Morrus said:


> But then you couldn't click on:
> 
> Messageboards
> - all submenus under that
> Referencence
> - D&D Collectors Guides
> Things We make
> - all submenus under that
> 
> How would you get to the forums, for example, if clicking on "MESSAGEBOARDS" opened a menu rather than took you to the boards?



There's no way to have the menus as they are now, but they only open when you click on the arrow or name? I don't know really anything about making it happen, but I just kind of assumed it was possible; maybe I'm just really wrong.


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## Morrus

JamesonCourage said:


> There's no way to have the menus as they are now, but they only open when you click on the arrow or name? I don't know really anything about making it happen, but I just kind of assumed it was possible; maybe I'm just really wrong.




There is, but that creates different problems as outlined in the post you quoted.

It's not a technical/code thing. It's a common sense/observation thing. Mutually exclusive design requirements. Clicking on an item can't both take you to a location AND open a menu. It does one or the other. Unless you're a Time Lord or something.

As I said in the post you quoted - if clicking on "MESSAGEBOARDS" opens a menu rather than takes you to the forums, how do you get to the forums?


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## JamesonCourage

Morrus said:


> There is, but that creates different problems as outlined in the post you quoted.
> 
> It's not a technical/code thing. It's a common sense/observation thing. Mutually exclusive design requirements. Clicking on an item can't both take you to a location AND open a menu. It does one or the other. Unless you're a Time Lord or something.
> 
> As I said in the post you quoted - if clicking on "MESSAGEBOARDS" opens a menu rather than takes you to the forums, how do you get to the forums?



Add a "go to forums" submenu?


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## Morrus

JamesonCourage said:


> Add a "go to forums" submenu?




But then all the people earlier in this thread who demanded a forums top-level menu would start shouting at me!  It was a submenu last week.... it changed because of this thread.


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## JamesonCourage

Morrus said:


> But then all the people earlier in this thread who demanded a forums top-level menu would start shouting at me!  It was a submenu last week.... it changed because of this thread.



Well, there's always adding another button, or making those people unhappy instead of me 

But, you have your reasons. I'm just voicing why I dislike it; as I said, it's in no way a dealbreaker. Just annoying each time it happens. Thanks for all the work you do and feedback you take seriously, though; it's rare and appreciated.


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## Artur Hawkwing

Okay, here's my 1.25 coppers. 

Tried to log on this morning, got an all white screen for the forums (having gotten to them through my Private Message folder I see why, the Forum Default option is gone from the skin drop down). Hide in Shadows produces white with a little blue text here and there (bolded text I think shows up blue in that) Child of Black works with a white and blue scheme, which can make some of the colored text in the RP threads a bit difficult to read, but can be worked with. If we could get the bright, glaring white toned down a little to a light gray or something that didn't cause that effect, I would be content to work with it. 

Also, just a personal gripe, I think a centered EnWorld logo in the header of the page would be a much better spot to imbed the floating menus than over the advertising banner. I have found in the past elsewhere that if your click isn't precise you could end up clicking the banner and going to that link instead of going to the menu you wanted. Just a preference for me. Also makes it easier to find if you are new. 

Otherwise, I like what I have seen in these upgrades and improvements. Heavy thanks to all you good folks sweating it out behind the scenes and listening to us bellyache. 

-AHw


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## Scott DeWar

JamesonCourage said:


> Well, there's always adding another button, or making those people unhappy instead of me
> 
> But, you have your reasons. I'm just voicing why I dislike it; as I said, it's in no way a deal breaker. Just annoying each time it happens. Thanks for all the work you do and feedback you take seriously, though; it's rare and appreciated.




 [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION], maybe what is needed is instead of the placement of the curser over to start the dropdown, simply require a click on the requested item. I find it irritating when I am on some sights that I move the curser over a spot a whole screen of dropdown menus happens. That is not the case here, but i still like to have the option th NOT accidentally cause a menu to dropdown.


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## Morrus

I'm not getting into a "changing it back and forth every time someone says they don't like it" things, guys.  I don't have the energy or the mental fortitude to cope with that type of thing.  It's how it is; right now there are much more serious things to worry about - like general hackery.


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## Scott DeWar

how is the hackery investigation going? I see a lot of spam happening lately. Is there any connection?


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## Morrus

Scott DeWar said:


> how is the hackery investigation going? I see a lot of spam happening lately. Is there any connection?




No, that's an extra problem.


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## Scott DeWar

well, there are many of us on a vigilant lookout for spammers


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## jonesy

Is the 'Resend activation email' link automatic? Like, does it cause extra work for the moderation staff, or does the server handle it?

It's occurred to me several times now that the links in the new setting tabs are rather small font, and I get really close to clicking that link instead of the 'Logout' one when I'm logging out.


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## Nellisir

I must say, the new placement is making me notice the ads a little more.  I have a sudden longing for Dove Underarm Antiperspirant.  For women.


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## doghead

*I found my top Menu*

Like it says on the box, I found the top menu. 

Normally my windows are devoid of Menus. They look like this: 


Thats because the Menus are lurking - there is one hiding on the 'PM Error Message Page'. See: . 

There is another one sckulking on my 'Manage Attachments' page, but only appears once I have cast a 'See Menu' spell (or uploaded a new attachment).

Fortunately I have a ready supply of 'Use Alternative Method' spells to get around the problem of the missing Menus, so it is only a small inconvenience. 

But I thought that I would share.

I am using Safari 5.1.2. Perhaps I need a new Edition.

thotd


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