# NetFlix's DareDevil - Your thoughts?



## Hand of Evil (Apr 15, 2015)

Okay, I have not seen it but Rotten Tomato's is showing 97% by both the critics and by the viewers!  To those that have seen it, how is it?


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## Morrus (Apr 15, 2015)

Absolutely superb. I Ioved it.


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## Raunalyn (Apr 15, 2015)

I liked it. It was a super-hero drama without all the super-hero. Vincent D'Onofrio's Wilson Fisk was simply superb; at times showing a vulnerability that made you sympathize with him, and then turning around and showing incredible and terrifying rage [SBLOCK] Beheading by car door, anyone? [/SBLOCK]

 Charlie Cox did a more than adequate job as Murdock (he certainly helped cleanse my mind of the horrid Affleck), but I felt that they could have potentially cast a different actor. Not that I'm complaining...he did a good job. He could have been *better* though. The choreography for the fight scenes was magnificent, however.

Overall, I really liked it. It's a great origin story, and the lead up to the final episode is well paced and extremely well done.


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## billd91 (Apr 15, 2015)

I'm only a little way into it and it's going great. Lots of Marvel name-dropping, too. It's almost like a scavenger hunt of links to Marvel history. 

And lots of nice, relatively subtle touches too to bring characters to life. One that I noticed was in a flashback - a young Matt winced at the sound of the bell while his old man was training. Nice touch.


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## gamerprinter (Apr 15, 2015)

Being someone who was never a big comic fan (I read some Vampirella, Cousin Eerie and Uncle Creepy, but not a lot, and no other kind of comic attracted me), so I don't have a canon understanding of Daredevil, the comic. Still, I liked the show, and also, not really being a super hero comic fan, I really like how many superhero shows in the last few years are presented, leaving the super hero spandex out of the story line.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 15, 2015)

Surprisingly well done. It surpassed Agent of Shield, Arrow and Gotham (not too hard to do). It doesn't innovate. A hero is there to restore the status quo, not change it, but the cinematography, the acting and more importantly the writting are great. Having less episodes (13 instead of 23) makes more less filler. At 10 episodes it would have been thighter and better paced. 

Is it grimdark like DC's movies? No. It is dark, but there is space for lighter notes and the hero isn't too depressed. His moral dilemma is not about him being a hero, it is about how far he should go. 

Not really an origines story in the traditional way. We get a 30 seconds origine scene at the begining of the first episode and some flashbacks during the show, but DD is in action right from the start. Refreshing.

The only negative note is the baddy. A bit too campy for my taste.


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## Umbran (Apr 15, 2015)

It is on my to-watch-soon list.

One note I'd like to make of it - shortly after its release, it was noted that, ironically, for a show that has a blind main character, Netflix had not included the action-descriptive audio track that is usually used to make shows accessible to blind audience members.

Not only has Netflix corrected this fact (within mere days, which is impressive), but they're putting in effort to correct the omission for their other shows.  While it would have been awesome for them to have  done this for the start, I give them some significant kudos for dealing with the situation properly and promptly.


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## Dog Moon (Apr 16, 2015)

I liked the show.  I liked how the good guy and the bad guy were technically ultimately after the same thing... but their way of going about it is in two very different ways.

A part of me didn't like the bad guy.  Something about him bugged me, though I could never figure out what exactly.  It wasn't the acting.  I thought the actor did a superb job.  Just something about the character.

As for someone who never really read the comics, the one thing I wish they would have mentioned a LITTLE earlier was how a blind guy was able to do what he did.  Like when he jumps off a building how does he know there's another building that he's jumping onto and not to the streets three stories below?  I suppose people that knew about Daredevil already knew the answer, but I did not and that was bugging me until they explained A) How he could sort of actually see, his "World on Fire" and B) How the chemicals affected him, super enhancing his senses, which essentially allowed A).  So I am glad they finally explained this, but I wish they would have made some sort of mention of it in like the first episode, just to give you a slightly better understanding of how he was able to do what he did.


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## Janx (Apr 16, 2015)

I'm liking it.  finished Ep4 last night.

still waiting to see if he ever gets an actual costume


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## Deuce Traveler (Apr 16, 2015)

It's the best superhero TV series I've ever seen, and I hope this influences more shows to go with a shorter format, and that we get many more Marvel street-level stories told through this kind of medium.  It's long enough to round out all of the characters, but not so long that it drags.  Some episodes had little fighting, but was mostly character development that menacingly led up to a climax of short violence.  Loved the pacing and I also thought Vincent D'Onofrio did a great job as Kingpin, but he was also frighteningly disturbing in Full Metal Jacket and the Cell, so I suppose this was to be expected of him.


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## Ryujin (Apr 16, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Surprisingly well done. It surpassed Agent of Shield, Arrow and Gotham (not too hard to do). It doesn't innovate. A hero is there to restore the status quo, not change it, but the cinematography, the acting and more importantly the writting are great. Having less episodes (13 instead of 23) makes more less filler. At 10 episodes it would have been thighter and better paced.
> 
> Is it grimdark like DC's movies? No. It is dark, but there is space for lighter notes and the hero isn't too depressed. His moral dilemma is not about him being a hero, it is about how far he should go.
> 
> ...




I've seen the first couple and quite like what I've seen, so far. Similar style of storytelling to "Arrow", with the actual origin in flash-backs, which leaves most of the time for telling the actual story.


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## Crothian (Apr 17, 2015)

It was excellent. The actor for Stick was perfect and Foggy Nelson they got some great depth out of. Because of how good this was I am now looking forward to AKA Jessica Jones a lot more.


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## Scott DeWar (Apr 20, 2015)

Scott Glenn makes a great "Stick". watching episode 7 right now. watched 6 a few minutes ago.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 20, 2015)

I'm one of the few if only people not impressed. I give it a 6 out of 10.

It's good, and had it come out 10-15 years ago it would have been a 9 out of 10. if it wasn't linked to Avengers and Agents of shield I would give it a 7.5 out of 10. How ever I now have Agents of shield (that started out a bit weak so it's hard to compare since DD only had 13 shows not twenty something) and Arrow (that basicly was in the 3rd show already as good or better then the 13th Daredevil...) and flash that hit the ground running (pun intended). 

I would put this as better then Gothem, as good as Constantine, better then 1st half of season 1 shield but not as good as 2md half of shield, much worse then Arrow, and can't hold a flame to flash...

the good- 
*Kingpin* he is maybe the best villain ever... he is defiantly the best version of kingpin ever.
*Tropes slaying* the partner wasn't comic relief, he had his own arc, the girl wasn't always needing men to come to her rescue (no more often then other men) and I will spoiler this last bit
[sblock]the fbi mattered... in corrupt cop movies/TV shows people always forget that they are an option... or the corrupter owns EVERYONE... it felt nice for them to matter[/sblock] 
*Stick* I loved stick, if anything was wrong it was that he wasn't in it more.
*Magic* they didn't feel the need to beat you over the head with powers and magic, but they let them into the series.
*Secrete Identity* no one carries the stupid ball, and it isn't obvius... unless you really know matt... 


the bad-
*13 hour origin* I thought the new mantra was no origin, but this felt very dragged out.
*Pacing *to be fair, I have never watched a Netflix series so it may just take getting used to, but it didn't feel like 13 1 hour tv episodes, and it didn't feel like a 13hr movie either, the pacing just felt off some how.
*too weak* By tying onto the MCU it really felt painful to see daredevil get beat up... I'm used to watching Agent May, and Black Widow take down a room full of thugs and or trained agents and then just have mussed up hair, I'm used to watching Agent Ward and Mocking bird do similar but get a few bruises, I'm used to Trip and sky being a little more beat up but still taking 2 or 3 guys on no problem... then we get the super power street level bad*** ninja super hero... and he gets his but kicked by some Russian no name thugs... Tony Stark did better in Iron Man 3 without his armor.   When stick calls him a wuss (well worse word) I felt it was kinda true. 
[sblock]if they introed the Night nurse after the Hand ninja fight instead of just thugs I would feel better[/sblock]
*Inconsistent healing* The amount of punishment he could just walk off was weird... he was beat up so bad he had a collapsed lung and maybe a broken rib... no problem he meditates to heal fast  so is this a grim and gritty or a comic book, or is it the WORST of both... hero gets seriesly hurt but just bounces back like he wasn't?
*Being a lawyer* I was looking forward to seeing him defend people... and what do we get 1 case, and the guy is guilty of sin... I mean they could have taken a parry mason show, re wrote it to be two lawyers, and instead of a private eye they have daredevil find evidence... it would be so easy. I mean his powers make him a walking talking crime sceane tech team...I was bummed that Matt himself being a trial lawyer bearly mattered.


The Ugly
*Pointless death* [sblock]WHat was the purpose of killing ben? He is a big character, and it didn't make Kingpin more bad or more terrifying or advance the plot really... taking it out really doesn't change much... it felt like shock for shock value[/sblock]
*Why does he keep secrets* so they hung a lampshade on it in the 10th hour, but really if he didn't plan to be daredevil since being a kid (and they say he wasn't) why did multi years of law school and then internship pass with him lying to his best friend? I mean he doesn't have to tell him everything, but god a simple "I can tell when people are lying because when I lost my sight my other sense got better." or something... I mean it felt so weird that his best friend and partner didn't know ANYTHING about his senses... even as he uses them around him all the time...
*No killing...sort of* Ok so a main theme in this type of work is "I wont kill" and you have to take some of it with a grain of salt, because it is easy in a fight to accidently kill someone if you hit them too hard. HOWEVER when you throw people off buildings and drop fire extinguishers on them from heights, and LIGHT THEM ON FIRE... it seems like you get lucky more then anything...
*WHat would you prefer yellow spandex* OK back in the day heroes and villains made fun of the comic book stuff, but then Captain America, Thor and Iron man showed you could have the outfits... so why make fun of the fisk white suit? I mean he doesn't need to wear it, but to call it out as a joke was a little sad... especially when
[Sblock]Dare devil runs through 12 1/2 of 13 hours without his main costume... and I will add by the third time someone told him to get some armor it got old... again the slow 13 hour origin could have been fixed[/sblock]



My idea how it could have been better
[sblock] take the first two episodes and re mix parts of 3 and 4 into them, daredevil doesn't need the night nurse yet and fisk shows up a bit sooner. Then make the 3rd one stick. The fourth one the Hand ninja beats him up, and he needs her help then... then 4 and 5 are 12 and 13, the coustume show up and lock up Fisk.  Then let Fisk run things from jail, and Matt get an innocent client for a sub plot... then intro a villain (maybe bullseye) for a bit, then back to Fisk... then the "should I kill him" thing hold more weight when he runs thing from prison, there is no legal way to stop him [/sblock]


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## Ryujin (Apr 20, 2015)

Funny, I don't see it as a 13 hour origin story. When we meet Murdock he's already Daredevil, just without the costume. The real origin story, of how he got his training and powers, occupies something less than 5 minutes in the entire season, and is dealt with in flashbacks.


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## Morrus (Apr 20, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> Funny, I don't see it as a 13 hour origin story. When we meet Murdock he's already Daredevil, just without the costume. The real origin story, of how he got his training and powers, occupies something less than 5 minutes in the entire season, and is dealt with in flashbacks.




Oh, it's totally an origin story - for him and for Kingpin (arguably more for Kingpin).  He gets the name and the costume at the end.  It's not the origin of Matt Murdoch's powers (though that's touched on briefly); it's the origin of the superhero known as Daredevil.  Batman origin stories often have him fighting crime without the cowl for a while, too.


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## Ryujin (Apr 20, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Oh, it's totally an origin story - for him and for Kingpin (arguably more for Kingpin).  He gets the name and the costume at the end.  It's not the origin of Matt Murdoch's powers (though that's touched on briefly); it's the origin of the superhero known as Daredevil.  Batman origin stories often have him fighting crime without the cowl for a while, too.




Technically I suppose that it is, but it's not the long and drawn out origin story that we've come to expect from the multiple comic franchises and their various reboots. It's more about a character finding his "brand", than it is about him becoming a hero. For example how many times do we need to see Uncle Ben get killed? Do we really need to see the Fantastic Four go through their transformations _again_? And those damned pearls. I've lost count of the number of times that I've seen that string of pearls break and scatter all over the alley behind that damned theatre.

Both "Arrow" and "Daredevil" have done it right, by making the actual origin appear in nothing more than brief flashbacks. Of the two I would say that Daredevil did it even better, by making those flashbacks even shorter. The characters are ubiquitous. Their stories generations old. I'm glad that someone finally figured that out and got right down to telling the story.


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## Morrus (Apr 20, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> Technically I suppose that it is, but it's not the long and drawn out origin story that we've come to expect from the multiple comic franchises and their various reboots. It's more about a character finding his "brand", than it is about him becoming a hero.




I don't really see the distinction, technically or not. It comes acrosss very cearly as an origin sory for both hero and villain to me.



> For example how many times do we need to see Uncle Ben get killed? Do we really need to see the Fantastic Four go through their transformations _again_? And those damned pearls. I've lost count of the number of times that I've seen that string of pearls break and scatter all over the alley behind that damned theatre.




Sure. I don't think anybody disagrees that there are origin stories we've seen too often.

There is a dfense to that, though. You may have seen them several times. A 7-year old kid wasn't alive last time it happened.



> Both "Arrow" and "Daredevil" have done it right, by making the actual origin appear in nothing more than brief flashbacks. Of the two I would say that Daredevil did it even better, by making those flashbacks even shorter. The characters are ubiquitous. Their stories generations old. I'm glad that someone finally figured that out and got right down to telling the story.




Well, Arrow is still an origin story.  He hasn't come out as Green Arrow yet.  I assume there's a character name change coming soon.


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## tomBitonti (Apr 20, 2015)

Hi,

What, if any, ways are there to watch this legally without joining NetFlix?  I'm fine to spend a few dollars per episode, but I don't want to join NetFlix.

Thx!

TomB


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## Ryujin (Apr 20, 2015)

Morrus said:


> I don't really see the distinction, technically or not. It comes acrosss very cearly as an origin sory for both hero and villain to me.
> 
> Sure. I don't think anybody disagrees that there are origin stories we've seen too often.
> 
> ...




I gave the "technically" statement as a concession, because I don't really see it as an origin story myself at all, so I'll just take that back  I see it as being like "Batman: Year One" in which you've already got someone who has chosen to be a hero, righter of wrongs, or punisher of evildoers..., but is refining his process and defining the image he portrays to the public.

Sure, that seven year old hasn't seen the origin story in film before, but the characters are rather pervasive in pop culture. I would argue that origin stories are largely unnecessary except perhaps in the previously stated little flashbacks, as a reminder of what has gone before. You can tell a story about the Greek Gods without retelling the story of Chronos and Gaia. Why do the 'modern myths' need the constant retelling?

And I have my doubts that we'll ever see Oliver Queen become "Green Arrow." After all we're already 3 seasons in, and he's doing what he was going to do. I'm fine with him continuing on as "The Arrow" and we all know who the character is.


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## Morrus (Apr 20, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> because I don't really see it as an origin story myself at all,




Yes, clearly. I got that loud and clear!  I _understood_ you, Ryujin.  I just didn't agree with you.


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## Morrus (Apr 20, 2015)

tomBitonti said:


> Hi,
> 
> What, if any, ways are there to watch this legally without joining NetFlix?  I'm fine to spend a few dollars per episode, but I don't want to join NetFlix.
> 
> ...




There are no legal ways; it's exclusive to Netflix. Well, I suppose you could watch it at a  friend's house.  That's a legal way to watch it without joining Netflix.


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## Ryujin (Apr 20, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Yes, clearly. I got that loud and clear!  I _understood_ you, Ryujin.  I just didn't agree with you.




And such is the way of the world


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## Kramodlog (Apr 20, 2015)

tomBitonti said:


> Hi,
> 
> What, if any, ways are there to watch this legally without joining NetFlix?  I'm fine to spend a few dollars per episode, but I don't want to join NetFlix.
> 
> ...




The first month you join netflix is free. You can cancel after that. If this isn't your cup of tea, you'll have to wait for the DVDs to come out. They did it with House of Cards and Orange is the New Black (both series started on netflix). In a year or so.


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## Meliath1742 (Apr 20, 2015)

Excellent series. My only complaint is having to wait for the next season of episodes. My wife really hated the fact that he got the hell beat out of him most episodes...but she can't wait either


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## GMforPowergamers (Apr 20, 2015)

I have to agree with this being a 13 hour origin, and he got too beat up too often. This was a superhero show taken way too far from its roots.
And I liked it but it didn't feel like an MCU setting, it felt like it would fit better as a gangbusters story set with man of steel and superman v Batman. The MCU elements almost all felt tacked on and I think it would stand up better on its own.

I put it heads and tails above the movie though from a few years ago. I can hardly wait for iron fist


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 20, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> Funny, I don't see it as a 13 hour origin story. When we meet Murdock he's already Daredevil, just without the costume. The real origin story, of how he got his training and powers, occupies something less than 5 minutes in the entire season, and is dealt with in flashbacks.




well what do you call him getting hit by a truck and chemicals, his dad's boxing, him teaching himself how to read brail, him putting himself through college and law school with money he got from his dad being killed by the mob, being trained by stick... that's more origin time then the ben aflic film, or any super man or bat man film... 

then on top of that we get the night nurse origin, then we get kingpins origin... that might be the passing issue I had, this whole series felt like a first act... set up and then the 'pay off' was the last half hour


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## Ryujin (Apr 20, 2015)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I have to agree with this being a 13 hour origin, and he got too beat up too often. This was a superhero show taken way too far from its roots.
> And I liked it but it didn't feel like an MCU setting, it felt like it would fit better as a gangbusters story set with man of steel and superman v Batman. The MCU elements almost all felt tacked on and I think it would stand up better on its own.
> 
> I put it heads and tails above the movie though from a few years ago. I can hardly wait for iron fist




Speaking of "Iron Fist", there's a fair bit of speculation as to where "Mistress Gao's" far away home is 



HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> well what do you call him getting hit by a truck and chemicals, his dad's boxing, him teaching himself how to read brail, him putting himself through college and law school with money he got from his dad being killed by the mob, being trained by stick... that's more origin time then the ben aflic film, or any super man or bat man film...
> 
> then on top of that we get the night nurse origin, then we get kingpins origin... that might be the passing issue I had, this whole series felt like a first act... set up and then the 'pay off' was the last half hour




Total up the time that they spent on the flashbacks for that and, like I said, it's likely something less than 5 minutes in the whole series so far


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 20, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> Total up the time that they spent on the flashbacks for that and, like I said, it's likely something less than 5 minutes in the whole series so far



we have atleast 30 mins of the dad alone... and stick flash back was more then 5 mins... add in the college flash back too


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## Ryujin (Apr 20, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> we have atleast 30 mins of the dad alone... and stick flash back was more then 5 mins... add in the college flash back too




Even if you count all of the flashback material, and not just the getting blinded and getting his powers stuff, that's still not very much for 13 episodes that run up to an hour in length.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 20, 2015)

Does flash backs mean we have an origine story? We know the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents was filmed for Batman v Superman. Does it mean it will be a Batman origine story? If we have Superman's farmer dad in flash backs, it means it is an origine story?

DareDevil wasn't an origine story. It did contain flash backs that had to do with his origine though. What we have is a man who already is a superhero fighting crime. Usually origine stories are about wrestling with the new powers, the decision to become a superhero, etc. What he does is question how far he is willing to go. Seems like a theme for the second movie.

Sure he doesn't have his costume, but what we learned from Iron Man 3 is that it isn't the costume that makes the hero.


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## gamerprinter (Apr 20, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Does flash backs mean we have an origine story? We know the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents was filmed for Batman v Superman. Does it mean it will be a Batman origine story? If we have Superman's farmer dad in flash backs, it means it is an origine story?
> 
> DareDevil wasn't an origine story. It did contain flash backs that had to do with his origine though. What we have is a man who already is a superhero fighting crime. Usually origine stories are about wrestling with the new powers, the decision to become a superhero, etc. What he does is question how far he is willing to go. Seems like a theme for the second movie.
> 
> Sure he doesn't have his costume, but what we learned from Iron Man 3 is that it isn't the costume that makes the hero.




The flashback shows how he became blind, and later in the series its known that he had gained extra powers of perception, due to the chemicals that caused his blindness. So I think it is an origin story. As a boy, he pushed an old man aside from being hit by the truck and was hit himself. So yes, he showed a heroic tendency before the accident, but it is the accident that gives him his powers.


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## Scott DeWar (Apr 20, 2015)

I am on ep 8 right now and I am going to guess this may show more of who fisk is by the reflection in the mirror.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 20, 2015)

goldomark said:


> DareDevil wasn't an origine story. It did contain flash backs that had to do with his origine though. What we have is a man who already is a superhero fighting crime. Usually origine stories are about wrestling with the new powers, the decision to become a superhero, etc. What he does is question how far he is willing to go. Seems like a theme for the second movie.
> 
> Sure he doesn't have his costume, but what we learned from Iron Man 3 is that it isn't the costume that makes the hero.




I disagree with almost everything you say here... it is very much Daredevil origin... if you think otherwise then there has never been a superman origin movie... or an X men origin movie... and only half of the Batman begins is origin...


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## Ryujin (Apr 20, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> I disagree with almost everything you say here... it is very much Daredevil origin... if you think otherwise then there has never been a superman origin movie... or an X men origin movie... and only half of the Batman begins is origin...




"Superman", 1978, starring Christopher Reeve. It starts on Krypton.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 21, 2015)

gamerprinter said:


> The flashback shows how he became blind, and later in the series its known that he had gained extra powers of perception, due to the chemicals that caused his blindness. So I think it is an origin story. As a boy, he pushed an old man aside from being hit by the truck and was hit himself. So yes, he showed a heroic tendency before the accident, but it is the accident that gives him his powers.




And it is the death of Bruce Wayne's parents that drive him to become a superhero. It doesn't mean that a flashback of their deaths means we have an origine story.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 21, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> I disagree with almost everything you say here... it is very much Daredevil origin... if you think otherwise then there has never been a superman origin movie... or an X men origin movie... and only half of the Batman begins is origin...




I'm not even sure what is are your arguments.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 21, 2015)

goldomark said:


> I'm not even sure what is are your arguments.




My argument is that batman begins, and Superman 1978 are normally considered origin stories, and the first episode or two of most TV shows... in this case the 13th show was still building to the daredevil revel that in both of those moves come about 1/2 way to 2/3 of the way through... if this isn't a origin then neither are those two movies....


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## sabrinathecat (Apr 21, 2015)

Just finished the episode with the end of Viktor. Opening titles remind me a lot of Hannibal, only with symbols of new york and red paint instead of blood splashing on faces.
Show reminds me a lot of Arrow, but without the well defined goal. For having so much of Manhattan destroyed, from Avengers Movie, there doesn't seem to be that much damage in the area shots.
It does seem like for someone who is supposed to know how to fight, a lot of the time he doesn't, and is only winning because he bulls through the pain. Should also be a lot more lasting damage from the injuries he gets.
Show seems to be OK.
Was surprised with the quality of D'Offrio as Kingpin--he really seems to pull it off well.
As for fitting in with the rest of Marvel, it really doesn't have the feel yet. Sure, they mention stuff, but it really doesn't feel like the same world at all.
Then again, DareDevil was never one of my favorite characters, but in spite of that this is watchable.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 21, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> My argument is that batman begins, and Superman 1978 are normally considered origin stories, and the first episode or two of most TV shows... in this case the 13th show was still building to the daredevil revel that in both of those moves come about 1/2 way to 2/3 of the way through... if this isn't a origin then neither are those two movies....




DareDevil is right there from the start of the 13 episodes. Except for the first 30 seconds. That is all the origine story we get really. The costume and name do not make the hero, the actions do. He's been kicking asses even before the series started. His decision was made already. His origine, a 30 second exposition. 

Batman Begins... The name says it all. Origine story. Sups 1978? It has been a while, it is a lot less of an origine story than Batman Begins. We get some stuff at the beginning and then he is a hero. Very different from the last Superman movie.


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## Morrus (Apr 21, 2015)

goldomark said:


> The costume and name do not make the hero, the actions do




Nobody said he wasn't a hero from the start. But he wasn't _Daredevil_. Costumes and a name may not make a hero in a common English usage of the term, but they do make a _superhero_ as the term is used in a comic book. Clark Kent was born with his powers, and helped folks when he was younger, but he doesn't become Superman until he's an adult. Matt Murdoch is the same; he becomes Daredevil in the last scene of the season.

It's an origin story for Daresevil and Kingpin. Origin stories in comic book terms aren't just how superheroes get their powers - it's how they begin their identity as a specific named, costumed superhero.



> Sups 1978? It has been a while, it is a lot less of an origine story than Batman Begins. We get some stuff at the beginning and then he is a hero. Very different from the last Superman movie.




You don't see Superman in the first half of the film, just like in Batman Begins where you don't see Batman for the first half. In both movies, the titular costumed identity shows up over an hour in. The first half of each film is an origin story.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 21, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Nobody said he wasn't a hero from the start. But he wasn't _Daredevil_. Costumes and a name may not make a hero in a common English usage of the term, but they do make a _superhero_ as the term is used in a comic book. Clark Kent was born with his powers, and helped folks when he was younger, but he doesn't become Superman until he's an adult. Matt Murdoch is the same; he becomes Daredevil in the last scene of the season.



Powers and actions make _super_heroes. Murdock already has his* powers and is already fighting crime. The costume and name are secondary. Kent helps people, but he isn't actively a hero yet. The struggle to decide what to do with those powers is part of origine stories. It pretty much is a right of passage for superheroes, except Captain Murika**. Murdock already dealt with that. It is in part why the series work. It does away with a trope.



> It's an origin story for Daresevil and Kingpin. Origin stories in comic book terms aren't just how superheroes get their powers - it's how they begin their identity as a specific named, costumed superhero.



And if there is another season, well get a ne vilain, with flashbacks. It doesn't make it an origine story. Plus take Stick. Put him and his flashbacks in a second season and no one will say the second season is an origine story.



> You don't see Superman in the first half of the film, just like in Batman Begins where you don't see Batman for the first half. In both movies, the titular costumed identity shows up over an hour in. The first half of each film is an origin story.



I'll take your word, it has been a while. 


*Batman might now have official super powers, but he ain't doing humanly stuff. Murdock takes has more realistic fights and he has super powers. 

** Steve Rogers is different. He chose his state and the responsabilities that come with it. No dead parents, no radiactive spider bite, no mutant gene...


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## Morrus (Apr 21, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Powers and actions make _super_heroes. Murdock already has his* powers and is already fighting crime. The costume and name are secondary.




Yes, you said that, and I disagreed. I'm not really interested in just repeating the same things over and over. Clearly we disagree on the definitions of basic comic-book terms.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 21, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Yes, you said that, and I disagreed. I'm not really interested in just repeating the same things over and over. Clearly we disagree on the definitions of basic comic-book terms.




It is a tv series. Heck an online series, not a comic book. What Disney/Netflix is doing with DD, JJ, Power Man, Iron Fist and the Defenders is newish. We need to see this with different eyes. New paradigms, new standards, new meaning for words are at play here.

Right now DD isn't getting a second season. Maybe AKA Jessica Jones will be sort of second season for DD. The origine story paradigm might not apply to this.


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## gamerprinter (Apr 21, 2015)

goldomark said:


> And it is the death of Bruce Wayne's parents that drive him to become a superhero. It doesn't mean that a flashback of their deaths means we have an origine story.




I don't know Super Hero comics at all - was never interested (even as a kid). So my only exposure to Daredevil is this show. And I had no idea how the hero became a hero, I don't know what you'd normally consider an origin story. From my point of view, the flash backs was Daredevil's origin story. Though you could certainly do an entire episode to introduce an origin story, instead of the 30 seconds provided by the flash back, I don't see how it is any less of an origin story. Though you and I might have a complete different understanding of the concept "origin story".

So what do the flash back mean (to you)?


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## Kramodlog (Apr 21, 2015)

gamerprinter said:


> So what do the flash back mean (to you)?




A flashback is "a scene in a movie, novel, etc., set in a time earlier than the main story."


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## Morrus (Apr 21, 2015)

goldomark said:


> new meaning for words are at play.




If you have to invent your own meanings for key words is a debate, you're not really communicating. Yeah, sure - if "origin story" means "bagel" then it's not an origin story.  If you like.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 22, 2015)

Morrus said:


> If you have to invent your own meanings for key words is a debate, you're not really communicating. Yeah, sure - if "origin story" means "bagel" then it's not an origin story.  If you like.




Ha ha, that would be witty... if it were. 

Marvel is very aware of superhero fatigue. This why movies are something more than superhero flicks now. Captain Murika 2 was a spy thriller. Guardians of the Galaxy was an action comedy in space. Ant-Man is a heist movie. Spider-Man won't get a new origine story from his Civil War appearence. Disney is aware of the problem. Besides, audiences are savvier about superheroes now. Does the same story need to be told again?

With what they are doing with Netflix it seems new and they are moving away from origine stories. DareDevil moved away from it. Jessica Jones is another potential interesting example when we read what we know about the show. This is what is on the wikipedia page: 







> A former superhero suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder who opens her own detective agency, Alias Investigations.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.K.A._Jessica_Jones

We are far from a supehero origine story. She is a retired superhero starting a P.I. business. We might get flashbacks of how she got her powers and why she retired, but this is a show about a P.I. in a world with superheroes. A superhero origine story? Nah. Flashbacks do not automatically mean origine story.

In the show Luke Cage will be introduced before he gets his own show: 







> A man with superhuman strength, unbreakable skin, and a mysterious past that Jones encounters in the course of an investigation and who changes her life immensely. Colter described Cage as "a neighbourhood hero, very much linked to New York and Jessica Jones. [He] is a darker, grittier, more tangible character than Iron Man or Thor. He likes to keep things close to his chest, operate on the hush-hush. He has these abilities but he’s not sure how and when to use them.



Now this is the origine of how they met, sure. I wonder if he will get his origine story in her show and it will be delt with when he gets his.


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## gamerprinter (Apr 22, 2015)

goldomark said:


> A flashback is "a scene in a movie, novel, etc., set in a time earlier than the main story."




I know what a flashback is, the question I posed to you (that you completely missed), is what does the use of the flashbacks in Daredevil mean to you? If they are not origin story (in a 30 second bite), what purpose did the flashbacks in the series serve?


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## Umbran (Apr 22, 2015)

gamerprinter said:


> I know what a flashback is, the question I posed to you (that you completely missed), is what does the use of the flashbacks in Daredevil mean to you? If they are not origin story (in a 30 second bite), what purpose did the flashbacks in the series serve?




I'm going to venture something, not having seen the show.

Both sides are correct in this.  There is origin story, "How did I get to where I am now?" (In Daredevil's case, "How did I get to be blind yet able to sense my world, and how did I get to know all this cool fighting stuff?") and there's origin story, "How did I become the iconic figure?"

Spider Man is another good example of a two-stage origin story.  Yes, he's a nerdy did that gets bitten by a radioactive spider.  That, you can give in 30 seconds.  But the whole bit with the death of Uncle Ben, and the "with great power comes great responsibility" speech done in a way so you understand the emotions that drive the character's actions won't fit in 30 seconds.

In terms of genre tropes, the difference between costumed-hero and "guy with abilities that does stuff" matters.  Jason Bourne is a fine action-movie character, but he's a superspy, not a superhero.  Clark Kent is not Superman until he puts on the blue and reds, taking on a public persona and making himself not just a person, but an icon.


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## GMforPowergamers (Apr 22, 2015)

goldomark said:


> DareDevil is right there from the start of the 13 episodes. Except for the first 30 seconds. That is all the origine story we get really. The costume and name do not make the hero, the actions do. He's been kicking asses even before the series started. His decision was e.



if you never heard of dare devil and I took the opening sequence out and showed you the first 7 hours of the show you wouldn't eleven know the code name of the hero... More then half way through 


In fact If I names 5 street level hero's and you never hers of any of them it still would not narrow it down .  night watch. Night thrashed, moon knight, rage, and dare devil... 7 hours into 13 you don't know witch this is an origin for.


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## gamerprinter (Apr 22, 2015)

There was a bit more, that both included flashbacks, but also the introduction of a character that had taught the hero as a boy martial arts and ninja skills, also a blind man (named "Stick") - so that too is part of the origin story, and the second part of the origin story.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 22, 2015)

gamerprinter said:


> I know what a flashback is, the question I posed to you (that you completely missed), is what does the use of the flashbacks in Daredevil mean to you? If they are not origin story (in a 30 second bite), what purpose did the flashbacks in the series serve?



Exposition.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 22, 2015)

GMforPowergamers said:


> if you never heard of dare devil and I took the opening sequence out and showed you the first 7 hours of the show you wouldn't eleven know the code name of the hero... More then half way through



The titled of the show sort of gave it away. But so what? You can't be a superhero without a name? Not having a name means it is an origine story? Jessica Jones is named Jessica Jones. Will all her shows be a perpetual origine story?


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## Ryujin (Apr 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> The titled of the show sort of gave it away. But so what? You can't be a superhero without a name? Not having a name means it is an origine story? Jessica Jones is named Jessica Jones. Will all her shows be a perpetual origine story?




Well going by the preceding logic I guess that since she's no longer a superhero they would say it's the opposite. A 'terminus story'?


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## Kramodlog (Apr 23, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> Well going by the preceding logic I guess that since she's no longer a superhero they would say it's the opposite. A 'terminus story'?




She is gonna put a power suit on and face Superman!


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## GMforPowergamers (Apr 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> The titled of the show sort of gave it away. But so what? You can't be a superhero without a name? Not having a name means it is an origine story? Jessica Jones is named Jessica Jones. Will all her shows be a perpetual origine story?




Your being ridicules and I am done... Itwas a 13 hour badly flowed origin story that did not do the hero justice and fits better in the grim new dc movie verse then the marvel one...


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## Umbran (Apr 23, 2015)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Itwas a 13 hour badly flowed origin story that did not do the hero justice and fits better in the grim new dc movie verse then the marvel one...




You know that, for a Marvel comic, Daredevil is often pretty grim, right?  Making it darker than the other things in the Marvel cinematic universe would be appropriate.


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## billd91 (Apr 23, 2015)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Your being ridicules and I am done... Itwas a 13 hour badly flowed origin story that did not do the hero justice and fits better in the grim new dc movie verse then the marvel one...




Didn't do the hero justice? That depends in which Marvel writers you're comparing the series to. I'm finding it a pretty decent fit with some of the a Frank Miller era.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 23, 2015)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Your being ridicules and I am done... Itwas a 13 hour badly flowed origin story that did not do the hero justice and fits better in the grim new dc movie verse then the marvel one...




Oh well. I can't wait until season two that has just been announced for 2016. http://screenrant.com/daredevil-netflix-season-2-2016-marvel/


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## Ryujin (Apr 23, 2015)

Umbran said:


> You know that, for a Marvel comic, Daredevil is often pretty grim, right?  Making it darker than the other things in the Marvel cinematic universe would be appropriate.




A superhero who deals with assassins and murderers on a daily basis? How could it help but be a "feel good tour de force"?


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## GMforPowergamers (Apr 23, 2015)

Umbran said:


> You know that, for a Marvel comic, Daredevil is often pretty grim, right?  Making it darker than the other things in the Marvel cinematic universe would be appropriate.




I agree and liked it being dark. I didn't like random thug Russian gangsters that I've gotten very used to getting trashed by may or ward destroying him, then him needing 5 minutes of medical attention where they say how serious it is (collapsed lung) then magic meditation and he is fine.

Don't mistake me not likeing something for not understanding it. As a stand alone not comaired to MCU this show would be great... But as part of it, I feel it falls into meh...

Someone suggested more hand assassin and more innocent people being defended, and maybe dome supervillians. I think that would have been better. Dare devil is supposed to be dark and grim, but also super... This version didn't feel very super compaiered to the rest of the universe, and felt more then a little crammed in. 

I was also looking forward to this whole "No origins" thing But now I hope this isn't a look at what Dr strange looks like.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 23, 2015)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Someone suggested more hand assassin and more innocent people being defended, and maybe dome supervillians. I think that would have been better. Dare devil is supposed to be dark and grim, but also super... This version didn't feel very super compaiered to the rest of the universe, and felt more then a little crammed in.




A blind guy doing ninja stuff, detect lying and being able to do some Sherlock analysis of someone is pretty super. The difference with movies is scale. Macro vs micro, global vs local. Thor defends the Nine Realms. He needs lots of super because he isa global superhero. Daredevil defends Hell's Kitchen, a neighborhood in Manhanttan. He needs less super because he is a local superhero. Or, if you will, with less super he can only defend so much territory. The guy can'r fly, he runs on roof tops. The Nine Realms are out of reach. Heck, Stilt-Man is out of reach. 

This why we'll see the Defenders. A team is needed for the larger threat that is coming (Black sky and Hand fueled I supposed).


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## GMforPowergamers (Apr 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> A blind guy doing ninja stuff, detect lying and being able to do some Sherlock analysis of someone is pretty super. The difference with movies is scale. Macro vs micro, global vs local. Thor defends the Nine Realms. He needs lots of super because he isa global superhero. Daredevil defends Hell's Kitchen, a neighborhood in Manhanttan. He needs less super because he is a local superhero. Or, if you will, with less super he can only defend so much territory. The guy can'r fly, he runs on roof tops. The Nine Realms are out of reach. Heck, Stilt-Man is out of reach.
> 
> This why we'll see the Defenders. A team is needed for the larger threat that is coming (Black sky and Hand fueled I supposed).



So who compared him to Thor?

It must be easy to poke whiles in things if you make up the argument first...

Now try again with black widow, agent May, Grant Ward, mockingbird, and Agent trip.... You know the non powered heroes who work (mostly) on the sane scale as dare devil and do so with no powers at all... And with half of them just getting normal training not super ninja blind monk teachers.... If this were it's own thing it would stand up better...

As for the defenders Luke cage is closer to Thor then dare devil and iron fist and Jessica Jones are in between the two... If Matt gets beaten up by mob thugs what happens if the wrecking crew shows up?


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## Umbran (Apr 23, 2015)

GMforPowergamers said:


> As for the defenders Luke cage is closer to Thor




That's kind of like saying Philadelphia is closer to Honolulu than Boston is.  Luke Cage is not in Thor's neighborhood.  Thor is the god of thunder and strength.  Thor has fought the Hulk to a stalemate for an hour, and is a match for Hercules.  Thor has knocked people into orbit with a single punch.  I kid you not.   

How strong Cage is really depends on what era they are taking as their basis.  Power Man has suffered significant power creep over time.  In the comics originally, he could lift about 3 tons.  Short-range small arms fire would not pierce his skin, but it would bruise him severely.  In current comics, Cage can heft more like 25 tons, and take point-blank small arms fire without really noticing.  But he's still not in Thor's league.  



> If Matt gets beaten up by mob thugs what happens if the wrecking crew shows up?




That will depend, again, on what era of Wrecking Crew they use.  At times, Spider Man, alone, could take down the crew, much less DD and three others.

Do remember - they need to leave room for Daredevil to grow, and for the series to escalate.  They aren't going to start with him at the top of his game, especially if you view this as an extended origin story.  And that's setting aside how comic book superheroes are not generally all that consistent in terms of power levels.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 23, 2015)

GMforPowergamers said:


> So who compared him to Thor?



You. Sort of. You compared DD's superness to the rest of the MCU universe. 







> Dare devil is supposed to be dark and grim, but also super... This version didn't feel very super compaiered to the rest of the universe, and felt more then a little crammed in.



I went with that and compared his superness to Thor's superness (cause he is part of the rest of the universe). Both are super, but one is more super than the other. 



> Now try again with black widow, agent May, Grant Ward, mockingbird, and Agent trip.... You know the non powered heroes who work (mostly) on the sane scale as dare devil and do so with no powers at all... And with half of them just getting normal training not super ninja blind monk teachers.... If this were it's own thing it would stand up better...



And DD is far more credible... In a superhero sort of way. The target audience is different for DD. They are aiming for more mature people*, so they go with less cartoony heroes, more credible action and psychological dept. Fine by me.



> As for the defenders Luke cage is closer to Thor then dare devil and iron fist and Jessica Jones are in between the two... If Matt gets beaten up by mob thugs what happens if the wrecking crew shows up?



JJ's vilain will be Killgrave according to the wikipedia page. Seems the conflict is going to be psychological in nature rather than a question of brute strenght. Again, Marvel is playing  with our expectations of superhero stories. 


*







> Disney Consumer Products created a small line of products that cater to a more adult audience, given the show’s edgier tone. Paul Gitter, senior VP of Marvel Licensing for Disney Consumer Products said, "We’ll be focusing less on products that are targeted at the very young consumer," and more on teens and adult with products at stores or outlets like Hot Topic.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daredevil_(TV_series)


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## GMforPowergamers (Apr 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> You. Sort of. You compared DD's superness to the rest of the MCU universe. I went with that and compared his superness to Thor's superness (cause he is part of the rest of the universe). Both are super, but one is more super than the other.
> 
> And DD is far more credible... In a superhero sort of way. The target audience is different for DD. They are aiming for more mature people*, so they go with less cartoony heroes, more credible action and psychological dept. Fine by me.
> 
> ...




Oh wow nice shadow insult If I don't like dare devil it must BE because I'm not adult enough... Just like when I (and anyone else I have heard) compared dd to the rest of the MCU we say agents of shield and black widow and some go to cap or stark when out of sujt in IM3 but yo pretended we wanted him to fight Thor.

Its just like how I keep being told it isn't an origin he is dare devil from day one BUT he gets beat up because he isn't fully grown into being dare devil...

Ok Agents of shield is not the same type of show, but If they are in the same universe they should be consistent... Or like I and others have said... "This would work better NOT connected to the MCU"


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## Kramodlog (Apr 23, 2015)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Oh wow nice shadow insult If I don't like dare devil it must BE because I'm not adult enough...



Or maybe you're projecting a bit much? Do you do shadow insults and think other people do them?



> Just like when I (and anyone else I have heard) compared dd to the rest of the MCU we say agents of shield and black widow and some go to cap or stark when out of sujt in IM3 but yo pretended we wanted him to fight Thor.



I have no idea what you're talking about, mate. I didn't say DD should fight Thor and you didn't mention Black Widow until I mentioned Thor.



> Its just like how I keep being told it isn't an origin he is dare devil from day one BUT he gets beat up because he isn't fully grown into being dare devil...



I never said that. I fully expect him to get beat up in season 2 even if he now as a name. 



> Ok Agents of shield is not the same type of show, but If they are in the same universe they should be consistent... Or like I and others have said... "This would work better NOT connected to the MCU"



Guardian of the Galaxy was an action comedy, while Captain Murika: The Whimper Soldier was a dark spy drama. Yet they co-exist fine. Civil War will be dark even if Funny Tony is gonna be in it. I haven't heard this critic you've just formulated before. Earth and the universe are vaste. Different tones can co-exist. Tony Stark lives the wealthy, excessive and comedic life of the 1%. Matt Murdock lives in the darker world where slumlords and muggers. We'll get different kind of stories. And it is a good move. This tactique will prolongue the life of the superhero era of entertainment as people won't get tired of seeing superheroes. 

Plus you know, watch the Afleck DD film right after you watched the netflix series. It was lighter, he was more super, and tell me that was a better than the series.


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## GMforPowergamers (Apr 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Guardian of the Galaxy was an action comedy, while Captain Murika: The Whimper Soldier was a dark spy drama. Yet they co-exist fine. Civil War will be dark even if Funny Tony is gonna be in it. I haven't heard this critic you've just formulated before. Earth and the universe are vaste. Different tones can co-exist. Tony Stark lives the wealthy, excessive and comedic life of the 1%. Matt Murdock lives in the darker world where slumlords and muggers. We'll get different kind of stories. And it is a good move. This tactique will prolongue the life of the superhero era of entertainment as people won't get tired of seeing superheroes.
> .




Funny that... Every one you mentioned was a different theme AND fit just fine. That is my complaint that they made every other one fit. Dare devil doesn't fit, not because it couldn't have, but because they chose to do so.

You don't get it. I understand what you are saying, I just think it could have been done better.

You know what, I would have prefered the movie... It was bad, but it was because it was a bad movie... This was a good series that doesn't work.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 23, 2015)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Funny that... Every one you mentioned was a different theme AND fit just fine. That is my complaint that they made every other one fit. Dare devil doesn't fit, not because it couldn't have, but because they chose to do so.



I think it fits and it is Hawkeye and Black Widow who do not. Their official lack of super powers and the actions they still are able to perform makes them stand out. 



> You don't get it. I understand what you are saying, I just think it could have been done better.



Oh, DD could have been done better. A bit shorter, it dragged a bit at the end. And there was something off with Fisk. I did not mind the journalist's death, but killing the only black guy of the show? Still, best superhero series done to date. 



> You know what, I would have prefered the movie... It was bad, but it was because it was a bad movie... This was a good series that doesn't work.



Wut?


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 23, 2015)

[MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION], you need to take a breath and back up for a moment, I'm sure [MENTION=55961]goldomark[/MENTION] didn't mean to come off as insulting or condescending. We can all agree that this is a golden age for comic book geeks and we are being spoiled by great series and movies... even if the comics themselves may be taking a bit of a hit.

I agree with most of what you say but I think you could rethink how you say it...



goldomark said:


> I think it fits and it is Hawkeye and Black Widow who do not. Their official lack of super powers and the actions they still are able to perform makes them stand out.



 they are the precedent, along with Agents of Shields 


> best superhero series done to date.



 I thought GM's preferring aflec DD was the funniest thing someone said on this thread, but you one uped it... flash and arrow both blow DD away


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## Kramodlog (Apr 23, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> I thought GM's preferring aflec DD was the funniest thing someone said on this thread, but you one uped it... flash and arrow both blow DD away



Yeah, no. They are cheap, filled with filler, badly written and acted.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Yeah, no. They are cheap, filled with filler, badly written and acted.




what are you talking about, Flash has the best special effects on tv. Flash also has the best cast hands down movie or tv...


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## Morrus (Apr 24, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> what are you talking about, Flash has the best special effects on tv. Flash also has the best cast hands down movie or tv...




Yikes.  I like Flash, but it's no House of Cards, True Detective, or Game of Thrones.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 24, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> what are you talking about, Flash has the best special effects on tv.




Cheapness isn't just special effects. It is locations, photography, costumes, filler... There is a lot of care that went into DD. It looks more like a movie than a series. 

Series like Arrow, Flash, AoS or Gotham are more rushed and are more convulated. There are reasons for that. They have more episodes per season and not all of them have been made or written before they start filming. Because all the DD episodes are made at once (because they are released at the same time), it means they have to write it all before filming starts, make all the storyboards, etc. It makes for a better product. More cohesive. Less episodes mean more money per episodes too. 



> Flash also has the best cast hands down movie or tv...



I'm not even sure where to beging with this doozy.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Yikes.  I like Flash, but it's no House of Cards, True Detective, or Game of Thrones.




sorry, I agree, I should have said "Best SUPERHERO cast" I didn't think that through...


edit: to be fair I've never seen house of cards... but True detective and game of thrones are both stellar


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Cheapness isn't just special effects. It is locations, photography, costumes, filler... There is a lot of care that went into DD. It looks more like a movie than a series.




I'm not sure what you think is wrong with the flash but all of that is great. I mean they got the flash costume, and most the villains in there perfect.  I don't think that Dare devil did any better then the CW did.




> Series like Arrow, Flash, AoS or Gotham are more rushed and are more convulated.




Gotham is the worst of them (and still heads and tails over what we saw ten years ago... mutant X shudder)



> There are reasons for that. They have more episodes per season and not all of them have been made or written before they start filming. Because all the DD episodes are made at once (because they are released at the same time), it means they have to write it all before filming starts, make all the storyboards, etc. It makes for a better product. More cohesive. Less episodes mean more money per episodes too.



I follow this guy emergency awesome on you tube, and he was talking about them writing and tapeing at he same time, and that they were rewrites on the set...so I think one of you has it wrong. I believe it is you just looking for a reason that Netflix is better then cable. Unless you were on set, or in those rooms, I'm not sure that this is going anywhere though... I don't want to get into a argument over it...




> I'm not even sure where to beging with this doozy.



  read the first page again I ranked all of the shows, and put flash at the top, way above DD



HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> I'm one of the few if only people not impressed. I give it a 6 out of 10.
> It's good, and had it come out 10-15 years ago it would have been a 9 out of 10. if it wasn't linked to Avengers and Agents of shield I would give it a 7.5 out of 10. How ever I now have Agents of shield (that started out a bit weak so it's hard to compare since DD only had 13 shows not twenty something) and Arrow (that basicly was in the 3rd show already as good or better then the 13th Daredevil...) and flash that hit the ground running (pun intended).
> I would put this as better then Gothem, as good as Constantine, better then 1st half of season 1 shield but not as good as 2md half of shield, much worse then Arrow, and can't hold a flame to flash...


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## Morrus (Apr 24, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Cheapness isn't just special effects. It is locations, photography, costumes, filler... There is a lot of care that went into DD. It looks more like a movie than a series.




The primary difference is more location shooting rather than sets. That always shows.

All of them use both, of course, but DD is more location filmed than most of the others.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 24, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> sorry, I agree, I should have said "Best SUPERHERO cast" I didn't think that through...



Better than the Avenger cast?


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Better than the Avenger cast?




hands down...

I find myself as excited to sit down every Tuesday night to hear "I'm the fastest man alive" then I am about going to see age of ultron.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 24, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> Gotham is the worst of them (and still heads and tails over what we saw ten years ago... mutant X shudder)



Yeah, that was something else. 



> I follow this guy emergency awesome on you tube, and he was talking about them writing and tapeing at he same time, and that they were rewrites on the set...so I think one of you has it wrong. I believe it is you just looking for a reason that Netflix is better then cable. Unless you were on set, or in those rooms, I'm not sure that this is going anywhere though... I don't want to get into a argument over it...



Even films can have re-writes or re-shoots before a films is released. But not all the episodes of a tv show are filmed when the first episodes are released. Once those are out, you can't change what happened to them.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Even films can have re-writes or re-shoots before a films is released. But not all the episodes of a tv show are filmed when the first episodes are released. Once those are out, you can't change what happened to them.




that's not what you said though... you said Dare devil was better because they story boarded and wrote it before tape rolled... but again I see no evidence of that at all. The fact that 13 hrs dropped at once isn't any better then 24hrs dropping 1 hr a week over the next 40 weeks...


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## Kramodlog (Apr 24, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> hands down...
> 
> I find myself as excited to sit down every Tuesday night to hear "I'm the fastest man alive" then I am about going to see age of ultron.




Better than Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen!?


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Better than Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen!?




yup... I don't even really like Ian Mckellen as Magneto...


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## Kramodlog (Apr 24, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> . The fact that 13 hrs dropped at once isn't any better then 24hrs dropping 1 hr a week over the next 40 weeks...



Like I said, because it isn't made all at once. They might make 6 episodes and put them on tv. When later they shoot episode 18 and suddenly what happened in episode 4 cause continuity problem, they can't reshoot that problematic scene from episode 4. A lot of tv series aren't written and shot all at once. They are filmed as the season progresses. With a film or netflix you can't do that. 

Does it mean all series will be better on netflix than on tv? No. But for DD the added value really shows. It is coherent. Same goes for True Detective, for example. The smaller format also helps.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 24, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> yup... I don't even really like Ian Mckellen as Magneto...




The horror... The horror...


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Like I said, because it isn't made all at once. They might make 6 episodes and put them on tv. When later they shoot episode 18 and suddenly what happened in episode 4 cause continuity problem, they can't reshoot that problematic scene from episode 4. A lot of tv series aren't written and shot all at once. They are filmed as the season progresses. With a film or netflix you can't do that.
> 
> Does it mean all series will be better on netflix than on tv? No. But for DD the added value really shows. It is coherent. Same goes for True Detective, for example. The smaller format also helps.




so a theoretical problem a TV show might have had or will have... what does that have to do with flash that has so far had no issue, or arrow even for that matter? At this point it almost seems like you are just arguing to argue. Please tell me the point of this, because I didn't see anything in Dare Devil that showed this 'advantage' over flash...


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## Kramodlog (Apr 24, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> so a theoretical problem a TV show might have had or will have... what does that have to do with flash that has so far had no issue, or arrow even for that matter? At this point it almost seems like you are just arguing to argue. Please tell me the point of this, because I didn't see anything in Dare Devil that showed this 'advantage' over flash...



Well yeah, you don't see how the Flash's actors are worse than Stewart and McKellen...

The point? Well when a serie's episodes are all written before filming, it makes a for a superior product because there is a vision guiding it. Plot holes are taken care of before filming andcontradictions resolved. It also reduces fillers. All scenes, or most, have a purpose. They either propel the plot forward or deepen the psychological dept of the characters. With 23 episodes you have so much filler episodes that have so little do to with the main arc and usually end with the hero learning a moral lesson. e.g. Friendship is awesome! Love is all powerful! /barf

At least in theory. Some can still suck. Of course, it is not the case with DD.


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## JamesonCourage (Apr 24, 2015)

In defense of The Flash, I think the pacing is awesome. It's running full speed. I did not expect them to hit anywhere near as many points as they have so early (spoilering some examples so I don't give stuff away).
[sblock](1) Barry telling Iris how he feels so early. I thought they'd drag it out all season, make it a finale or pre-finale kind of deal. Nope, handled it pretty early.

(2) Barry confronting Reverse Flash. They had this as early as episode 9! Color me surprised and impressed.

(3) The series dealing with the time-travel/Barry's mother's death (and the characters learning what happened) in the first season. I honestly thought they'd make it take longer. Hasn't happened yet, but it's clearly building that way.

(4) Everyone learning that Barry is the Flash. Only Iris doesn't know. Even Captain Cold knows! This took a while on Arrow (pretty much the last character just found out, and we're deep in season 3).

(5) Dr. Wells' identity and secrets are fully explained. Again, I thought this might be a season 1 finale kind of thing. Nope, we're getting it midway through the first season.[/sblock]
I'm not really looking to jump in on the "better or worse" argument. But while The Flash has some filler, it's actually very fast-paced compared to most other shows. Including Daredevil, in my opinion. That show could've been trimmed down, and I think it would've been better for it.


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## Ryujin (Apr 24, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> I'm not sure what you think is wrong with the flash but all of that is great. I mean they got the flash costume, and most the villains in there perfect.  I don't think that Dare devil did any better then the CW did.
> 
> Gotham is the worst of them (and still heads and tails over what we saw ten years ago... mutant X shudder)
> 
> ...




I see a big difference in the way that shows like "The Flash" and "Arrow" tell the story, when compared to something like "Daredevil." From my point of view "Daredevil" uses drama fairly effectively. The CW shows are melodramas. When watching the CW shows I'm constantly wondering who is going to be staring longingly into who's eyes next, and what the next random hookup will be. 

One characterization in "Daredevil" that I really like, is that of Wilson Fisk/Kingpin. He's more nuanced than the average villain. Is he aware of what he is doing or is he the villain, who thinks that he's the hero of the story? People are generally very good at justifying their own actions.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Apr 24, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> I see a big difference in the way that shows like "The Flash" and "Arrow" tell the story, when compared to something like "Daredevil." From my point of view "Daredevil" uses drama fairly effectively. The CW shows are melodramas. When watching the CW shows I'm constantly wondering who is going to be staring longingly into who's eyes next, and what the next random hookup will be.
> 
> One characterization in "Daredevil" that I really like, is that of Wilson Fisk/Kingpin. He's more nuanced than the average villain. Is he aware of what he is doing or is he the villain, who thinks that he's the hero of the story? People are generally very good at justifying their own actions.




Fisk was by far the best part of daredevil, and as I said in my review he stole the show. However this year on arrow we have Ra s al ghul and Merlin and Amanda waller (the third one could do with some lighting of her grey) that all match that description.


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## Ryujin (Apr 25, 2015)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> Fisk was by far the best part of daredevil, and as I said in my review he stole the show. However this year on arrow we have Ra s al ghul and Merlin and Amanda waller (the third one could do with some lighting of her grey) that all match that description.




My eyes slide right off Ras al Ghul. As 'super' villains go, he's ordinary. Flat. When John Barrowman is on screen I see his far more interesting character, Captain Jack Harkness, instead of Malcolm Merlin. Amanda Waller is so uninteresting that I nearly didn't make the connection. I enjoy "Arrow" but it's mental bubblegum by comparison. No that "Daredevil" is MacBeth, or anything, but it's on a different level.


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## sabrinathecat (Apr 28, 2015)

Finished watching DD, and (this may come as a shock to some) enjoyed it. Some eps are a little slow, but it is about someone working out the kinks in a plan to actually do something.

Arrow was great because he started with a plan from the get-go. The flashbacks told an origin quickly enough, but spaced it out to last... Though the interpretation of Black Canary didn't quite work for me (still better than what was done to her in Birds of Prey or Smallville).

The shows are way too different to say X is better than Y. I enjoy both.

To me, DD's downsides are fairly small. If NYC is so devastated by the events of Avengers, where is the damage? Where are the construction crews that should be working in most of the area shots? And, most importantly, were are the other characters who have already been shown to exist, many of whom live in NYC?
That said, this was well done enough for me to suspend my usually over-the-top inability to suspend disbelief.

Looking forward to the continuations of... just about every one of the current comic-book TV shows.


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## Janx (Apr 28, 2015)

sabrinathecat said:


> Finished watching DD, and (this may come as a shock to some) enjoyed it. Some eps are a little slow, but it is about someone working out the kinks in a plan to actually do something.
> 
> Arrow was great because he started with a plan from the get-go. The flashbacks told an origin quickly enough, but spaced it out to last... Though the interpretation of Black Canary didn't quite work for me (still better than what was done to her in Birds of Prey or Smallville).
> 
> ...




One thing I kept in mind is Hell's Kitchen is a certain sized area in NYC.  I'm not sure how big, but I recall watching some NBC show about the irish mafia and hearing a mention that one of the characters had never been out of the neighborhood.

So I kind of think of Hell's Kitchen like that.  These people are micro-focused on their part of the city, and don't consider the larger part of the city.  Heck, even the KingPin is mostly only talking about/working in Hell's Kitchen.

For DD, imagine that part of that is because he doesn't have a car


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## sabrinathecat (Apr 28, 2015)

Hells Kitchen is about a dozen or so small blocks on Manhattan Island.
In real life, the tour buses are saying that the area is being gentrified into the top dining establishments. Doesn't work as much of a background for a super-hero comic, though.

It isn't uncommon for people to have not left their small neighborhood prior to WWII. Thus the argument that any Englishman could tell where any other Englishman came from by hearing about two sentences of the other talking.


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## Jhaelen (Apr 30, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> I see a big difference in the way that shows like "The Flash" and "Arrow" tell the story, when compared to something like "Daredevil." From my point of view "Daredevil" uses drama fairly effectively. The CW shows are melodramas. When watching the CW shows I'm constantly wondering who is going to be staring longingly into who's eyes next, and what the next random hookup will be.



Quoted for truth! I wouldn't have known how to phrase it, but that's a great example why I don't think either CW show is particularly good. Typically, I watch them while playing a video game or reading a novel. I don't consider them a complete waste of time, but they're just fast-food for me, nothing to get invested in.


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