# Is there a feat to use Dex bonus for damage?



## Alzrius (Mar 20, 2007)

Is there a feat that lets you use your Dexterity bonus for your damage bonus (instead of Strength) for melee (and applicable ranged) attacks? I'm sure I've seen one somewhere, but I can't recall now. WotC or third-party, either is fine.


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## UltimaGabe (Mar 20, 2007)

I don't think one exists that I've seen... though many would regard such a feat as broken, considering how powerful dexterity already is.


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## RigaMortus2 (Mar 20, 2007)

These are the ones I know of...

CLASSES
Champion of Corellon (Races o' Wild p113 3.5)
Corsair 9 (Dragon #321 p86 3.5) - Damage (replaces Strength)
Fighter Variant (Dragon #310) - Ranged Damage (replaces Strength)

FEATS
Shadow Blade (Tome of Battle p32) - Damage with Shadow Hand weapons
Crossbow Sniper (PHB2) - 1/2 Damage to crossbow
Deadeye (Dragon #304)

EQUIPMENT
Fierce enchantment (Arms/Equip guide p96 3.0) - Damage, Removes AC bonus
Sword of Graceful Strikes (Arms/Equip guide p120 3.0) - Damage


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## Sithobi1 (Mar 20, 2007)

Shadow Blade-The feat so nice, it's in the list twice.


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## Stalker0 (Mar 20, 2007)

Crossbow Sniper lets you add half your dex mod to crossbow damage


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## EyeontheMountain (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm in the camp that says it would be too good. If you want a similar ability take 3 levels of swashbuckler and you et Int to damage, whcih may be almost as good as your dex


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## Darklone (Mar 20, 2007)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Crossbow Sniper lets you add half your dex mod to crossbow damage



I like that feat because it doesn't add the dex damage to str damage. The other options are IMHO bordering brokiness.


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## glass (Mar 20, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> I like that feat because it doesn't add the dex damage to str damage. The other options are IMHO bordering brokiness.



For the type of characters interested in this sort of feat, I am not sure replacing strength isn't actually better than adding to it. Instead of keeping your strength at 10, you can drop it to 8 or 6 (depending on how much attention your group pays to encumberance) with no further penalty and have more points to spend elsewhere (like say, Dex).


glass.


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## Ahrimon (Mar 20, 2007)

Extra finesse from AEG's Swashbuckling adventures allows you to use your Dex instead of Str for damage with any finessable weapon.  It has weapon finesse and BAB of +3 as prereqs if I remember correctly.

I've always wondered why a feat like this has never made it into the mainstream.


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## Darklone (Mar 20, 2007)

Ahrimon said:
			
		

> Extra finesse from AEG's Swashbuckling adventures allows you to use your Dex instead of Str for damage with any finessable weapon.  It has weapon finesse and BAB of +3 as prereqs if I remember correctly.
> 
> I've always wondered why a feat like this has never made it into the mainstream.



Halfling or elven swashbuckler with str 6 and dex 20. That's why.


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## Ahrimon (Mar 20, 2007)

And you guy with the 20 dex and a 1d6 weapon is going to outshine the 20 str half orc with a greatsword/axe how?  Granted they'll have a better AC.  But the smaller weapons means they'll never be doing as much damage.  Sounds like a fair trade to me.  Plus your using two feats just to be able to do that.  that elf/halfling would have to be 6th level before they could even do it.  The half orc is droping that damage from 1st level.


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## irdeggman (Mar 20, 2007)

Ahrimon said:
			
		

> And you guy with the 20 dex and a 1d6 weapon is going to outshine the 20 str half orc with a greatsword/axe how?  Granted they'll have a better AC.  But the smaller weapons means they'll never be doing as much damage.  Sounds like a fair trade to me.  Plus your using two feats just to be able to do that.  that elf/halfling would have to be 6th level before they could even do it.  The half orc is droping that damage from 1st level.





Plus better initiative (real handy for rogues and sneak attacks)

and a better reflex saving throw.


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## Darklone (Mar 20, 2007)

Ahrimon said:
			
		

> And you guy with the 20 dex and a 1d6 weapon is going to outshine the 20 str half orc with a greatsword/axe how?  Granted they'll have a better AC.  But the smaller weapons means they'll never be doing as much damage.  Sounds like a fair trade to me.  Plus your using two feats just to be able to do that.  that elf/halfling would have to be 6th level before they could even do it.  The half orc is droping that damage from 1st level.



??? You posted it has a BAB requirement of +3. Take an elven fighter, he'll have both feats at level3. Now give him a Spiked Chain, he can finesse it AND use twohanded Power Attack. 

Let's look at point buy for str 8 and dex 20 and con 14. For an elf, it costs 26 points. He has a +5 to hit and a +5 to damage. Let's give the half-orc a str 20, dex 12 and con 14. The half-orc has +5 to hit, +7 to damage and AC worse by 4... in light armor. Not considering mental attributes. The elf pays 2 feats more... Hmm, we could have taken a wildelf for the same point buy cost the half-orc could have only bought a str 18. 

If the elf goes TWF instead of the Spiked Chain, he's worse at power attacking but rocks with a +5 to damage to both weapons. And needs more feats, so he HAS to be fighter.

He's slightly disadvantaged so far but that get's better with leveling and buying stat boosters. The half-orc needs two, the elf just one. Are stat boosters common in AEG swashbuckling adventures? I don't think so.


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## Stalker0 (Mar 20, 2007)

Dex has a lot of advantages.

Better Initiative: At low levels good. At high levels, often the difference between winning and losing.
More AC, with less strings. I can have a good AC without sacrificng speed or penalties to skills. At low levels I will actually have a much better AC because fighters can't afford their plates yet.
Better reflex save: Less damage against magic.
Better touch AC: This one is a big one. In general, dex fighters are better against mages.
Ability to tumble. Can't tumble in big plates, tumbling helps reduce AOOs. Monsters tend to get larger as levels get higher.


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## Darklone (Mar 20, 2007)

Yupp, Stalker. I would gladly pay two feats to have 4 more AC points (and touch AC) than a comparable fighter.


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## ruleslawyer (Mar 20, 2007)

I don't agree. No heavy armor and no 2x Power Attack do not a happy fighter make. Moreover, it's not like a fighter gets Tumble as, say, a class skill.

For the rogue, this is great... but then you need to blow two feats on it. I just don't see how this is all that overpowered. 

And a halfling with Str 6 and Dex 20 has different problems, like the fact that his weapons all do less damage anyway.

Finally, an example using the spiked chain doesn't get much love from me, since that weapon is a bit... er, problematic anyway. Seems like you're picking on the wrong option.

Really, I'm not so worried about this feat. It exists in Iron Heroes (as Weapon Finesse 4), and is good but hardly a no-brainer.


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## Alpha Polaris (Mar 20, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> ??? You posted it has a BAB requirement of +3. Take an elven fighter, he'll have both feats at level3. Now give him a Spiked Chain, he can finesse it AND use twohanded Power Attack.



Uhoh, no power attacking with strength 8, methinks...


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## CrimsonWineGlass (Mar 21, 2007)

I think there might have been something to that extent from Malhavoc press though I can't be sure


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## Unkabear (Mar 21, 2007)

In the Midnight Campaign setting has a couple of feats that really make a light weapon fighter viable.  Clever fighting.  13 dex, weapon finesse bab +2 and you replace your dex bonus for str damage while fighting with melee weapon, then Canny strike int 13 WF CF bab +6 and you add 1d4 per int bonus to your damage to creatures subject to Crits/SA.  and Drive it deep which is basically power attack for light weapons.

Though Midnight is a strange setting and these feats could create a character broken in other settings.  Though truth be told it would make a rogue equal in fighting prowess and be able to deal out decent damage at high levels when Wizards are laying waste to battlefields.


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## Ahrimon (Mar 21, 2007)

I forgot the fighter route until after I was away from the computer.  Yeah, lvl 3 is the earliest.  I do think the swashbuckling adventures feat is flawed in that it doesn't halve the off hand bonus.

Your using two feats to make a dex based fighter.  You can't just use Str as a dump stat, you still need to be able to climb, jump, carry gear, etc.  You've basically restricted yourself from any form of heavy armor.  Even medium armor would be restrictive.  You can't grab a mighty bow that many warrior types like to keep around as an occasionally used ranged weapon.

Heavy armor wearers will still have a higher AC.  Mithril chain shirt Max dex of +7 for a total of +11.  Mithril Full plate, max dex of 4 for a total of +12.

I won't argue that a dex based warrior wouldn't have some advantages over a str based one.  But right now, the dex based person can't even hope to compete with the damage a str based person does.  Even with a feat like this, the str based would still do more damage.  This just brings the dex based warrior a little closer.

I agree with ruleslawyer.  Using the spiked chain, which has been the core of more overpowered combos than I can shake a stick at, is not the best weapon to use in a debate.


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## Someone (Mar 21, 2007)

ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> And a halfling with Str 6 and Dex 20 has different problems, like the fact that his weapons all do less damage anyway...




..And totally sucks at grappling.


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## Drowbane (Mar 21, 2007)

doublepost


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## Drowbane (Mar 21, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> ??? You posted it has a BAB requirement of +3. Take an elven fighter, he'll have both feats at level3. Now give him a Spiked Chain, he can finesse it AND use twohanded Power Attack.
> 
> Let's look at point buy for str 8 and dex 20 and con 14. For an elf, it costs 26 points. He has a +5 to hit and a +5 to damage. Let's give the half-orc a str 20, dex 12 and con 14. The half-orc has +5 to hit, +7 to damage and AC worse by 4... in light armor. Not considering mental attributes. The elf pays 2 feats more... Hmm, we could have taken a wildelf for the same point buy cost the half-orc could have only bought a str 18.
> 
> ...




Your Elf can't power attack at all.  Str 13 prereq


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## Darklone (Mar 21, 2007)

Fine, give the elf 5 points more str and put it in the half-orcs dex. The elf still has a much better AC and saving throws, more than you'd get for two feats otherwise.

I played an elf with str 16 and dex 20. That feat would have made him even more "DM annoying" than he used to be. And he wouldn't have needed Bulls strength AND cat's grace before battle.


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## hong (Mar 21, 2007)

I would personally change Zen Archery to add Wis to damage, not attack.

[/threadjack]


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## Darklone (Mar 21, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> I would personally change Zen Archery to add Wis to damage, not attack.
> 
> [/threadjack]



Instead or in addition to str damage ?


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## hong (Mar 22, 2007)

I'd let it stack with Str. Yeah, this makes it really good. However, it means the character still has a reason to boost Str, instead of ignoring it. I don't like single-stat bunnies; and someone who's boosting Str, Dex (for ranged attack) _and_ Wis is unlikely to be maxing out all three.


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## Stalker0 (Mar 22, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> I'd let it stack with Str. Yeah, this makes it really good. However, it means the character still has a reason to boost Str, instead of ignoring it. I don't like single-stat bunnies; and someone who's boosting Str, Dex (for ranged attack) _and_ Wis is unlikely to be maxing out all three.




So now instead of spending 20,000 gp to boost that dex from a +4 item to a +6, he'll spend 8000 to get a strength +2, wisdom +2, get a bigger bonus to damage and more bumps to your saves overall. Allowing stats to stack is not usually a good idea.


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