# Summon Nature's Ally vs. Summon Monster



## Tyrion (Jul 25, 2003)

Whoa...it looks like D&D 3.5 made druids' Summon Nature's Ally spells a great deal more powerful than the standard Summon Monsters. Example: SNA II vs. SM III--both spells can summon a black bear, but the wizard one is a spell level higher. This same pattern seems to hold throughout most levels.

Druids can now also spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally spells. I'm guessing the spell will see a lot more use now.

Opinions?


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 25, 2003)

As I understand it:

The druid uses SNAII to summon a black bear.

The wizzie uses SMIII to summon a _celestial_ black bear.

There is a difference.


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## Pbartender (Jul 25, 2003)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> *As I understand it:
> 
> The druid uses SNAII to summon a black bear.
> 
> ...




Exactly.

Summon Monster...  "This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane)."

Summon Nature's Ally... "This spell summons a natural creature."

Any Animal summoned by a Summon Monster spell must be Celestial or Fiendish, etc.


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## DevoutlyApathetic (Jul 25, 2003)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> *
> Any Animal summoned by a Summon Monster spell must be Celestial or Fiendish, etc. *




With corresponding extra abilities.  This is a good change IMO, SNA was pretty much the poor man's SM in 3.0.

Of course, I won't be memorizing Neutralize Poison anytime soon, not so long as I've got fourth level spells that can call me a Unicorn with all it's spell casting goodness.


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## James McMurray (Jul 25, 2003)

Why not? If you're a druid you can now Spontaneously cast Summon Natures Ally spells.


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## Waldo (Jul 25, 2003)

> Why not? If you're a druid you can now Spontaneously cast Summon Natures Ally spells.




For exactly that reason.  Why would he memorize a spell that he can duplicate with a spontaneous spell?  He limits himself by memorizing Neutralize Poison instead of another 4th level spell that he can't duplicate with SNA IV.

Of course, a LN, or NE druid can't summon his happy Unicorn 

edit: Of course.  Neutralize poison is a 3rd level druid spell, so this logic isn't completely valid.  Oh well.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 25, 2003)

Waldo said:
			
		

> *
> Of course.  Neutralize poison is a 3rd level druid spell, so this logic isn't completely valid.  Oh well. *



When the druid anticipates that he'll need to cast _Neutralize Poison_, (such as entering into the lair of Shelob the Spider,) then actually memorizing _Neutral Poision_ is the best option, because you expect to use it, and the spell is one level lower than the necessary _Summon Nature's Ally_ spell.

However, in situations where you _don't_ expect to need _Neutralize Poison_, it's more advantageous not to memorize it.  You probably won't need it, so you can fill that 3rd-level slot with something more useful.  And if, by chance, you do wind up needing it, you can spontaneously cast _Summon Nature's Ally IV_ and gain access to the spell.  Sure, that's one spell level higher than _Neutralize Poison_, but because of the rarity of needing _Neutralize Poison_, you'll still make out in the end.


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## Waldo (Jul 25, 2003)

Agreed.  It was just easier to not type that much. 

Thankfully, someone is always willing.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 26, 2003)

Waldo said:
			
		

> *Agreed.  It was just easier to not type that much.
> 
> Thankfully, someone is always willing.  *


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## Wippit Guud (Jul 26, 2003)

Druid vs Wizard.... FIGHT!


Druid summons black bear, "Muhahah! feel the might of nature!"

Wizard summons celestial black bear, "Nature is nothing, the bear from another plane wins all!"

Druid casts animal growth, "Say hello to my _little_ friend!"

Wizard cast enlar- hmmm... wizard curses WOTC as his bear gets torn to shreads.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 26, 2003)

Oooooor:

Druid summons black bear, "Muhahah! feel the might of nature!"

Wizard summons celestial black bear, "Nature is nothing, the bear from another plane wins all!"

Druid casts animal growth, "Say hello to my _little_ friend!"

Wizard summons celestial brown bear, "Oh look, my bear's friend arrived..."

 _Animal Growth_ is a great spell, but it _is_ fifth-level, after all...


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## youspoonybard (Jul 26, 2003)

Level 10.  Fight.

Druid summons up 3 brown bears (SNA V).

Mage summons 1 celestial brown bear (SM V)

Druid Animal growths herself, her animal companion, and her three bears.  Much Improved Grabbing ensues.

Mage teleports away like a wuss.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 26, 2003)

Don't forget the benefit of the 3.5e Neutralise Poison - it has a duration and hangs around in your body neutralising all poisons for 10mins per level !


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## Darkness (Jul 26, 2003)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> * Animal Growth is a great spell, but it is fifth-level, after all... *



Indeed.

What's more, it's not only a 5th-level Druid spell, but also *a 5th-level Sorcerer/Wizard spell* nowadays, so...


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 26, 2003)

Darkness said:
			
		

> *Indeed.
> 
> What's more, it's not only a 5th-level Druid spell, but also a 5th-level Sorcerer/Wizard spell nowadays, so...  *



Hahaha.  Sometimes it takes the Hand and Eye of Piratecat to point out the most salient points.


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## Waldo (Jul 26, 2003)

> What's more, it's not only a 5th-level Druid spell, but also a 5th-level Sorcerer/Wizard spell nowadays, so...




At least he can't cast it on his summoned celestial bear.

The Druids' need some advantage when it comes to animals.


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## Wippit Guud (Jul 26, 2003)

Yeah....

It's just too bad it Animal Growth won't work on a _celestial_ bear.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 26, 2003)

youspoonybard said:
			
		

> *Level 10.  Fight.
> 
> Druid summons up 3 brown bears (SNA V).
> 
> ...



For the druid to cast _Animal Growth_ on herself, her animal companion, and her three bears would take her five rounds.  Leaving the wizzie 5 rounds to play with.  My guess is that things wouldn't go as easily for the druid as you think.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 26, 2003)

> For the druid to cast Animal Growth on herself, her animal companion, and her three bears would take her five rounds. Leaving the wizzie 5 rounds to play with. My guess is that things wouldn't go as easily for the druid as you think.




How does that take 5 rounds? The druid used wildshape and Natural Casting.

Round 1: Cast Summon Nature's Ally V, getting 2 (not 3) brown bears.

Round 2: Druid casts Animal Growth.

Wait 'til the druid gets Creeping Doom.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 26, 2003)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> *
> 
> How does that take 5 rounds? *



I was under the false impression that _Animal Growth_ only targetted one animal.  My bad.


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## youspoonybard (Jul 26, 2003)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> *I was under the false impression that Animal Growth only targetted one animal.  My bad. *




Yeah.  Animal Growth is crazy like that.

It's Righteous Might on multiple targets, and lasts 100x as long : P.

I suppose one of the bears wouldn't grab, but would ready an action to whap the mage as he tries to teleport.

And although Animal Growth is a Sor/Wiz spell now, who would actually learn/prepare it?  Since the animals aren't friendly to you, and you can't cast it on your companion, and you can't summon anything up to help you, I couldn't imagine a Sorc/Wiz having the spell on hand.


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## DevoutlyApathetic (Jul 26, 2003)

Waldo said:
			
		

> *
> 
> For exactly that reason.  Why would he memorize a spell that he can duplicate with a spontaneous spell?  He limits himself by memorizing Neutralize Poison instead of another 4th level spell that he can't duplicate with SNA IV.*




Yes, of course nevermind that the unicorn is decent in combat and can also cast three first level spells and a third in addition to Neutralize poison.  I'm not all that certain it shouldn't be on the SNV list.

*



			Of course, a LN, or NE druid can't summon his happy Unicorn 

Click to expand...


*
Real druids are TN.  Others get what they deserve.

*



			edit: Of course.  Neutralize poison is a 3rd level druid spell, so this logic isn't completely valid.  Oh well.
		
Click to expand...


*
It was more than just the straight equivalencey thingee.  Even if it was just 'Any 4th level spell'=Neutralize Poison it'd still be worth it, IMO.

Oh, and you have to be able to communicate with the Unicorn...I'd use Sylvan, if only for style.


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## Thikket (Jul 26, 2003)

Hi everyone. I've been lurking here unregistered for about a year now, and I've learned a lot. I just had to post when I saw this thread, though, so here I am, all signed up.

Just a few days ago, I noticed the exact same power boost in SNA over SM, since I was having all too much fun designing a clerical summoner using the new (to me) Thaumaturgist prestige class. After I had a nice little build, I thought, "Oh.. crap.. I wonder if summon monster was downtweaked." Well, anyway, I compared some stuff briefly and noted that druidic spontaneous SNA casting is pretty rocking.

Specifically, I saw the unicorn, and thought of a 7th level druid versus a 7th level cleric. At the end of the day, they can each swap out a 4th level spell to get some good ol' fashioned healing. The cleric does a Cure Critical on one target for 4d8+7... The druid summons a unicorn which he commands (in common) to heal multiple targets for a total of 5d8+20 (three cure lights and a cure moderate at CL 5). So the SNA spell is not only more useful, it's actually better at healing than a cleric's healing around that level (and you can compare higher SNA spells summoning multiple unicorns against higher healing spells as well).

Also, about memorizing neutralize poison instead of summoning the unicorn... The 'corn has 42 HP. One could use it for battle, then healing immediately afterwards, since it probably won't bite the dust. At 7th level, one o' them pointy horsies seems formidable to me. But I might just be crazy.

I thought that was pretty neat, so I looked for some more fun natural allies to summon.

SNAV can be used to summon a Janni for Speak with Animals (3/day) and Create Food and Water (1/day) at CL 7.
SNAV can also be used to summon a nixie for Charm Person, or more useful, Water Breathing (1/day) at CL 12.

At lower levels, the stuff you summon sometimes actually has a higher caster level than your own, which is also quite interesting. This next example takes the cake, for me:

SNAVII, a 7th level spell that can be cast by a 13th level druid. You can use it to summon a Djinni, which has CL 20 on the following:
Create Food and Water (1/day), Create Wine (1/day), Major Creation (1/day, with vegetable matter permanent), Persistent Image (1/day), and Wind Walk (1/day).
That Wind Walk can affect the Djinni itself and up to 6 other creatures for 20 hours. That alone is nice... Until you realize that Wind Walk is *also* a 7th level druid spell.

So you can either cast Wind Walk... Or you can cast SNAVII, get a Djinni, and effectively cast "Wind walk with dinner, salad, wine, pretty pictures, and a burly temporary bodyguard."

Who said airline fares were diminishing in quality, anyway?


As my final contribution for my first post ever, I'd like to point out that SNAIX can summon a grig. With a fiddle. 
Maybe someone can help me out here... Explain to me -why in the world- the CR 1, two-Hit-point grig is accessable only with a 9th level spell. Oh, and it's not the Irresistable Dance... Since it's a freakin' DC 12 will save to resist (Yay, Otto's Resistable Dance...)

It makes me want to cry. I pined over the grig's SNAIX existence for quite a while, staring at the grig entry in the 3.5e SRD. I could only determine the following explanations. The designers threw grig on the list because of any or all of the following:
1) High level druids are bored of using their 9th level spells that kill everything, and would rather be totally ineffective in combat
2) All opponents of a high level druid summoning a grig are affected by Tasha's Hideous Laughter at the fact that it has exactly two hit points (DM Call)
3) The druid is in a bad mood and needs some lesser nature creature to step on
4) The wizard's toad familiar (that no longer makes his master Mr. Beefy) is hungry.
5) The designers realized they might've made a mistake like the Wind Walk thing, so they decided to pull down the power level of Summon Nature's Ally IX by making people like me cry when they read it.

Please. Someone relieve my pain. Tell me why.

Lurking in the bushes,
Thikket


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## sithramir (Jul 26, 2003)

LOL that is the second funniest thing i've seen with 3.5. 

That funniest being the One hundred traits where 100 is No sense of Humor (see #26) and when you check for 26 there isn't one. 

Goooo sprites! You are definitely equal to that celestial unicorn~


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## youspoonybard (Jul 26, 2003)

When I first saw that, I assumed it was for non-combat situations.

Like, making entire towns dance.

Entangle x3 isn't exactly overpowering, but it's useful.


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## Thikket (Jul 26, 2003)

The same thought -- about making towns dance -- had crossed my mind as well (although I didn't bother mentioning it, since it was neither funny nor conducive to shortening my already way too long post). The sad part is, though... DC 12 Will save to resist. Twelve!

That means that even if the town were entirely 1st level commoners with +0 Will saving throws somehow packed into the 30' radius of effect, 40% of them on average would remain unaffected.

Meaning 40% of the townsfolk will be heaving rocks at the tiny cricket-man who is wreaking jig-havoc on the town... And the sad part is, that tiny cricket man (conjured by a spell of maximum, non-epic power) will probably DIE. (AC 18, HP 2)

But I suppose fiddling is better than having the grig attempt to grapple, with its mighty -11 check.

Oh well. At least you could summon one to make that cricket sound right after someone cracks a stupid joke. You know, jokes much like the ones I just wrote.


Or maybe sprites are just only good for drinking. (More cricket noises)


**
By the by, Sithramir reminded me. I couldn't find the stats for "Unicorn, celestial charger." Am I blind? Is it just a celestial templated unicorn (if so, that's a pretty crappy use of a 9th level spell, too)?

Hidden inside a shrubbery,
Thikket


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## youspoonybard (Jul 26, 2003)

Use all of your 9th level slots to summon a trio or quartet.

4 DC 12's in a 30 ft radius will get those townsfolk for sure, and there's less messy cleanup than the old Druidic way of destroying villages (Epidemic in MotW).

The Celestial charger is in the 3.5 MM under "Unicorn".

Of course, *this* celestial charger is a 8HD celestial unicorn with 7 Cleric levels...what about *that* 8-HD celestial unicorn with 7 Fighter levels?

Ah well...

P.S.  I thought your jokes were great!  Plus, your first post contained more useful information/interesting reading than all of mine combined.  Keep it up!


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## Hypersmurf (Jul 26, 2003)

> *That Wind Walk can affect the Djinni itself and up to 6 other creatures for 20 hours. That alone is nice... Until you realize that Wind Walk is *also* a 7th level druid spell.
> 
> So you can either cast Wind Walk... Or you can cast SNAVII, get a Djinni, and effectively cast "Wind walk with dinner, salad, wine, pretty pictures, and a burly temporary bodyguard."*




Summon Nature’s Ally 
Conjuration (Summoning)
Effect: One summoned creature
*Duration: 1 round/level (D)*

Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this.  *When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. *

-Hyp.


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## DevoutlyApathetic (Jul 26, 2003)

Thikket said:
			
		

> *So you can either cast Wind Walk... Or you can cast SNAVII, get a Djinni, and effectively cast "Wind walk with dinner, salad, wine, pretty pictures, and a burly temporary bodyguard."
> *




Pure Gold.

(Curse you Hypersmurf for pointing out something important!  I wanted to lose more faith in this 3.5 thing!)


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## papa_laz (Jul 26, 2003)

Jig-havoc. HAH! 

What will he do next?


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## Thikket (Jul 26, 2003)

Ahh yes, a much needed dose of hardcore hope-smashing from the famous Hypersmurf! Now I feel truly welcomed to the boards!  I can only hope to aspire one day to your zen-like mastery of the rules. (Heh, I bet you get that a lot.)

When it's too good to be true, it usually is. Although, I wouldn't have a problem summoning that ol' genie for every other effect that it comes with!

And no wonder I couldn't find the celestial charger - I don't have the books, just the 3.5eSRD. Or maybe I'm just _really_ blind.

Even with Smurfian Enlightenment (heaven forbid I actually read the spell description), I think SNA spells are pretty nifty. Today I'm going to go over all the SM spells and see if there's anything fun hidden in those, too. Thanks to the spontaneous casting of summon nature's ally, I've actually considered playing a druid. So I suppose it was a good improvement, at least for me!

And youspoonybard (and everyone else!): after scouting these boards for so long, there's no way I could contribute enough humor and interesting tactics to match yours. I really do appreciate these message boards; they make me laugh, make me think, and make me happy.

I can't think of a better collection of random text strings on the internet! You guys are all too cool.

Waiting in the weeds (and perusing Summon Monster spells),
Thikket


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## Thikket (Jul 26, 2003)

*Some neat uses for SM spells, & other observations*

Alright, I finished going through the SM lists for utility-spell yielding summons. Summon Monster is of less utility overall than SNA, since one can't spontaneously cast Summon Monster (unless one's a sorcerer or bard, but then it uses a known spell slot, etc, etc). But there's still some minor neat stuff.

Oh, and I didn't bother writing about any rockin-combat summons. But I did notice a few things (see below). Also, I left out a few summons that were obviously inferior to summons of equal or lesser level.

SMIV: Archon, lantern. The freak with 4 HP. At will aid, continual flame, and detect evil. My question is: do spells with Durationermanent expire when the summoned creature leaves, too? I'm really not sure, but they may well poof, just from what Hypersmurf posted about summoning in general. Anyway, if not, you can use this to bypass the 50 gp cost of continual light, albeit a 4th level spell. The good part is that it's at-will, so you could have the fellow make you tons of continual light torches: at least 7 per cast. That's not bad, since you could sell 'em or use 'em. But only if Durationermanent isn't dispelled.

SMVI: There are a few monsters here that have some interesting utility spells.
-Bralani: 2/day cure serious wounds (CL 5). Total healing 6d8+10. Not too impressive, especially for a 6th level spell, but it lets an arcane caster have access to some healing in a pinch (besides the old polymorph trick). And you can always summon it to smack down your enemies and heal your friends afterwards, if it survives.
-Janni: See my above post. The interesting thing is, you can use Summon Nature's Ally to get a Janni a spell-level earlier.

SMVII
-Avoral: At will detect magic, dispel magic, light, see invisibility (CL 8), at will true seeing (CL 14), Lay on Hands 66 HP. This provides even better healing than the Bralani, but it's still nothing spectacular. A short duration true seeing makes this somewhat worthwhile, though, I'd say.
-Djinni: See my above post.
-Devil, Bone: At will dimensional anchor, fly, major image, wall of ice (CL 12). Even with the short durations, these spells could come in handy. Maybe.

SMVIII
-Lillend: 4/day cure light wounds (CL 6), 3/day darkness, 3/day knock, 1/day speak with animals, 1/day speak with plants (CL 10). Total healing 4d8+20. I guess the knocks could be useful to a cleric summoner.

SMIX: Although a 9th level spell, I really like the summon Leonal. It has at will polymorph and wall of force, 3/day each of cure critical wounds, neutralize poison, and remove disease, 1/day heal (CL 10), and Lay on Hands for 114 HP total. Total healing is 12d8+244, which I'd consider worth it for an arcane spellcaster any day. Heal is good stuff.


One last thing before I split: I noticed that some of the Summon Monster 6 spells had CR 9 creatures, while some of the Summon Monster X>6 spells had CR 6 creatures. Some careful study could well result in certain creatures being the best combat ones for that spell level. And when a Thaumaturgist summons once per combat as a free action (Contingent Conjuration), I think it's pretty good to invest some careful study.

I'd love to stick around and crack some more corny jokes, but I've got to run... And I see you all have your tomatoes ready anyway.

Rushing through the reeds,
Thikket


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## Staffan (Jul 26, 2003)

*Re: Some neat uses for SM spells, & other observations*



			
				Thikket said:
			
		

> *My question is: do spells with Durationermanent expire when the summoned creature leaves, too? I'm really not sure, but they may well poof, just from what Hypersmurf posted about summoning in general.*



My interpretation is that spells with an actual duration end (including permanent spells). However, instant spells "remain", or rather their effects.


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## Hypersmurf (Jul 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: Some neat uses for SM spells, & other observations*



> *My interpretation is that spells with an actual duration end (including permanent spells). However, instant spells "remain", or rather their effects. *




Yup.

Cure Light Wounds hangs around; Continual Flame goes out.

(How many Lantern Archons does it take to change a light bulb?)

-Hyp.


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## James McMurray (Jul 26, 2003)

What's a light bulb?


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## Hypersmurf (Jul 26, 2003)

> *What's a light bulb? *




Sorry, I'm using 3.5 terminology.

It was called a _small_ bulb before the revision.

-Hyp.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 27, 2003)

Don't forget the Lantern Archons' excellent value as a messenger - teleport without error (greater teleport?) at will with up to 50lbs of material has been used again and again and again by the PC's in my game to transport messages and equipment.

(Why use Drawmij's instant summoning when you can send a lantern archon to fetch it for you?)

Cheers


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## Number47 (Jul 27, 2003)

Too bad that summoned creatures cannot teleport (or summon or call) in 3.5


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## Hypersmurf (Jul 27, 2003)

Source?

"A summoned creature cannot use any innate *summoning* abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells."

It doesn't mention teleportation or calling...?

-Hyp.


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## Thikket (Jul 27, 2003)

"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, *nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.* Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them."

Emphasis mine.

This text is found in both _Summon Monster I_ and _Summon Nature's Ally I_ spell descriptions in my copy of the 3.5e SRD. I believe this is to what Number 47 is referring.

I was surprised about it, too.

**
3.5e Revision Staff Meeting:
Main Editor: "I think we need to do some more tweaking with the summon spells."
YesMan#1: "Yes sir!"
YesMan#2: "I agree!"
Covert Wizards Spymaster: "Well, information shows that some guy who goes by the handle Plane Sailing was using the teleportation abilities of certain creatures in an intelligent and clever fashion."
Main Editor: "Intelligent?! Clever!? Gentlemen, these words directly conflict with our theory of 3.5edition. Remove the ability. And, take out that thing about different sized ranged weapons as well. Maybe that'll piss off that Hypersmurf fellow."
**


Just kiddin'.  At first I didn't think I'd like 3.5e... But it's grown on me quickly, and I think I'll be incorporating many of the rules, if not all of them, in my games. 

Frolicing in the forest,
Thikket

No yes men were harmed in the making of this post.


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## Hypersmurf (Jul 27, 2003)

> *"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them."*




Ah, okay.  Is that specific to those two spells, or to any effect with the [Summoning] descriptor?  It doesn't appear in the Subschool description in the Magic Overview chapter of the SRD - that has what I quoted above.

If it's supposed to be general, it's a case for Olgar's Errata File...

-Hyp.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 27, 2003)

> "A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them."



What the heck is the point of summoning a demon if it can't even teleport itself? Do you know how useful a demon's teleport is? It lets them get to the good-aligned spellcaster sitting in the back! It also makes fear auras even nastier.


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## James McMurray (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, you can always just summon them next to the good aligned spellcaster in the back. Or in the midst of the people you want to scare.


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