# How does Boromir keep fighting?



## ReignofGeekaos (Aug 14, 2002)

Alright in the vain of Describe how Aragorn beat the Ringwraiths, I present another question to you? How does Boromir keep fighting, and killing those Orc's while he's defending Merry, and Pippin, using Dungeons and Dragon's rules. 

Now there are a few things we can assume, one each of the Arrows he was shot with was a Critical, two he may have gone down below 0 Hp and kept fighting, Two, He somehow was able to keep fighting the Orc's even though he probably used up his attacks per round, three, he is most likely a high level fighter if not anything else, and four the size of those arrows leaves me to believe that every round he kept fighting they hurt him more, so let's say they where arrows of wounding. 

So here you go how did Boromir keep fighting, and killing countless Orc's, even though he was badly wounded, and had used up his attacks per round most likely used up. 

The reason I asked because recently I've been watching this scene over, and over I guess you could say it struck a nerve with me.


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## Scupper (Aug 14, 2002)

*puts on geek hat ... oh, who am I kidding, I never take it off*

Well, Boromir is a near-epic level fighter, so I would have to argue the contention that he is below 0 hp while he is still up and fighting.  

On the contrary, it is quite clear the the DM is using the "clobbered" variant rules and Boromir, cursed by his poor roleplaying choices regarding the ring, has fumbled several of his fort saves when critically hit.

His attacks per round are hardly in question. He easily has 3-4 attacks per round, judging from his performance in Moria. Additionally, he likely has Combat Reflexes, so each of the Uruk-Hai that runs up to attack him provokes an attack of opportunity.

Well, there goes my self esteem down another notch. I hope you're happy.


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## Desdichado (Aug 14, 2002)

Two options: a) which is a bit of a hand-wave -- each arrow did a lot of damage, but didn't bring him to zero until the third, and b) isn't there a feat somewhere that lets you keep fighting until you actually die at -10?  Can't remember where that feat is published, but it'd probably do the job here.  After the fight is over, IIRC, you essentially keel over and act pretty much like everyone else in their negative hit points, which explains why he was dying when Aragorn came to him.

I wouldn't call Boromir epic, though.  Or any of the other "PCs" of the movie.


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## Henry (Aug 14, 2002)

Boromir had one level of Barbarian, and the Instantaneous Rage feat. When he got hit by the first arrow, it had taken him to negative hit points.

He instantly hit rage, and gained a pool of temporary hit points due to the CON boost. Then, Lurg (or whatever the Uruk-Hai's name was) hit him again, to push him back to lower hit points.  He fights on.

Finally, he got hit a third time, for the final push to either Negative or Zero Hit points (let's say zero, because he needs that cool speech to Aragorn). 

By the end, Aragorn can only look at him helplessly, because they both know that when the adrenalin wears off, he's gonna plunge DEEP into negative hit points. So, he makes his peace with Aragorn, and slips off into final sleep.

How's that?


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## Umbran (Aug 14, 2002)

Is the Instant Rage really necessary?  If he has a high Con, he could have Raged normally before the first arrow hit, and the end result's the same.


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## Henry (Aug 14, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *Is the Instant Rage really necessary?  If he has a high Con, he could have Raged normally before the first arrow hit, and the end result's the same. *




Except that people with positive hit points normally don't have arrows deeply emedded in their right breast, near their hearts.  At least, I seem to recall that's where the first arrow hit him when I watched it last week. So I needed the instant rage to explain why we actually kept going after that first "crit hit."


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## Desdichado (Aug 14, 2002)

Oooh, that's a good solution too.  And given Boromir's character (not terribly concerned with learning, much more "glory" and "war" focused, not the same discipline or wisdom as Faramir) it could actually make sense, too.


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## ReignofGeekaos (Aug 14, 2002)

I just thought he had Power Attack, Cleave, and great Cleave, and everytime one of the Urak Hai kept attacking him they provoked an AoA and he kept killing them, so he kept cleaving them down too.


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## Femerus the Gnecro (Aug 14, 2002)

Still, I'm not sure that Boromir could ever be described in terms of being a 'barbarian.'  

Rage just doesn't work, IMO.  However, the feat that lets you keep moving after getting below 0 HP works for me (it's from FRCS I think), and the entire scene can be explained using it as well.

Boromir is a high level fighter, and a badass to boot.  He regularly uses a bastard sword 1 handed (indicating the feat) though he can obviously use it without his shield (as evidence by his fighting at Amon Hen).  

As a high level fighter, Boromir gets several attacks per round, easily slaying these low level orcs.  Furthermore, as pointed out in a previous post, having combat reflexes and great cleave would explain several things as well.  

Of the three arrows, I think the first one was definitely a crit, though the second and third were probably not.  However, due to their size, I'd rule that they get a higher damage die than standard arrows... maybe a d8 or something (or just a mighty bow, which would be more simple than changing the rules around).  

I do believe, however, that Boromir was in negative hitpoints by the time the third arrow hit him... there is no doubt that the fourth arrow would have killed him instantly.  

Too bad he didn't stabilize.  Guess the hands of the king aren't the hands of the healer if the wounded man in question has 3 bigass arrows in him.  

Of course, in the book he was dead when they found him, with about a dozen arrows in him.  

Man, I'm a dork.  

-F


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## Someone (Aug 14, 2002)

Aragorn was a really wicked boy is he saw Boromir at negatives and didn´t tried to make a Heal check, I believe. I see Boromir at -7 or -8 while Lurtz were going to deal te coup the grace and already "dead" when he calls Aragorn "my King" (with great dismay of homophobes everywhere) Dead or "beyond mortal healing" what cares if the "player" wants some final words?


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Aug 14, 2002)

*Playing devil's advocate*

I'll argue that Boromir is a low-level fighter (say, 4th level -- see my posts elsewhere on the subject, in the Conversion library).  Say he has 40 hp or so.

He burns 20 or so Hp in scratches and fatigue fighting the orcs.

He then takes three arrow hits from a mighty composite shortbow -- roughly 1d6+2 damage each.

That puts him right around 0 hp.  He's disabled, then dying.

Hey, it's Hollywood!


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## Umbran (Aug 14, 2002)

Henry said:
			
		

> *Except that people with positive hit points normally don't have arrows deeply emedded in their right breast, near their hearts.  *




Except that whether he's used Rage, or Instant Rage doesn't change the number of hit points he has.  Either way, after the arrow hits, he's running on hit points given by adrenaline, that will disappear and leave him in trouble.   Your description is dramatic, but the feat is not necessary to explain the event.

It's just as easy to assume that after running full-tilt for a minute or two looking for halflings the DM had him start rolling Con checks to continue, and he used Rage to keep running longer, and then ran into orcs...


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## OaxacanWarrior (Aug 14, 2002)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> *b) isn't there a feat somewhere that lets you keep fighting until you actually die at -10?  Can't remember where that feat is published, but it'd probably do the job here.   *




I believe the feat is Remain Conscious in Sword and Fist.  Hope that helps.  : )

  - Ryan


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## Wikidogre (Aug 14, 2002)

*Re: Playing devil's advocate*



			
				Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *I'll argue that Boromir is a low-level fighter (say, 4th level -- see my posts elsewhere on the subject, in the Conversion library).  Say he has 40 hp or so.
> 
> He burns 20 or so Hp in scratches and fatigue fighting the orcs.
> 
> ...




I agree, except i would make him at least 7th. and the bow a mighty +5 bow, Lurtz was very strong. also Gandolf is obviously atleast 15th level...at least since he is a maiar, well Istari when he enters mortal guise. The only 2 that seem close to or higher level than 10th is Aragorn due to his longer mortal life span, and Legolas...DUH! Gimli is posible around 7th and wel as for the Hobbits, try 3rd  if that.


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## ReignofGeekaos (Aug 14, 2002)

Well that and maybe he had the Commander prestige class from WOT, the last ability there is called till the bitter end, and it let's you fighting till your negetive 10 hp.


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## Henry (Aug 15, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *Except that whether he's used Rage, or Instant Rage doesn't change the number of hit points he has.  Either way, after the arrow hits, he's running on hit points given by adrenaline, that will disappear and leave him in trouble...*




...Except that in D&D, the rage doesn't wear off until the end of the duration. If someone is knocked to negatives, they would still have the rage going, according to Skip Williams (and the D&D FAQ, I believe).

I'm not saying it's the only way it could be done, but so far, it's the one that is the most plausible in D&D terms. (Of course, that "Till the end" ability does a good job of translating it, too.)


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## Ridley's Cohort (Aug 15, 2002)

The whole Boromir thing only points out flaws with hit point conventions (1+=healthy, 0=staggered, -10=dead).  These are only conventions that make bookkeeping easier.  If we cared about realism we would add Fort saves to stay standing/conscious.  Because of the style od D&D combat, that is not really worth the trouble.

It is silly to rack your brains over what feats to give Boromir.

It is not particularly rare for warriors with mortal wounds to continue fighting.  Uncommon perhaps, but certainly not rare.

Keep in mind that any deep torso wound has a not insubstantial chance of killing you within the next few minutes or day from blood loss unless you have access to a skilled surgeon.  Or within the next 10 days from infection unless you have access to antibiotics.


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 15, 2002)

ReignofGeekaos said:
			
		

> *Now there are a few things we can assume, one each of the Arrows he was shot with was a Critical, two he may have gone down below 0 Hp and kept fighting, Two, He somehow was able to keep fighting the Orc's even though he probably used up his attacks per round, three, he is most likely a high level fighter if not anything else, and four the size of those arrows leaves me to believe that every round he kept fighting they hurt him more, so let's say they where arrows of wounding.
> 
> *




The first and fourth assumptions are ones I wouldn't make.

I've come to conclusion that everything is extremely subjective when it comes to interpreting anything from film or literature into D&D terms. For every assertion that is made that "this is how it would go in D&D," there will be another assertion that "D&D cannot adequately cover that situation."

But it's fun to read how everyone thinks it went.


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## Broken Fang (Aug 15, 2002)

Maybe he's just a 1st level Warrior...with 10 HP's.  All his attacks were AoO or his one attack per turn.  Orcs only have 4 or so HP's so his d10+2 for strength is a pretty easy kill.  The he took 3 low damage arrow attacks.

You could probably figure it at any level in 3rd ed.   

Plus being a hero in a book or movie is really what its all about...you are either going to die or not going to die.


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## ReignofGeekaos (Aug 15, 2002)

I mean't assume for this arguement.....hell if I wanted I could have said how does he do it as a fifth level warrior, I'm not, I'm assuming those two things for this arguement, because I thing he has four attacks per round.


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## Umbran (Aug 15, 2002)

Henry said:
			
		

> *
> 
> ...Except that in D&D, the rage doesn't wear off until the end of the duration. If someone is knocked to negatives, they would still have the rage going, according to Skip Williams (and the D&D FAQ, I believe).*




Yes, I know.  I fail to see the difference between these scenarios:

1) Boromir has not raged, gets hit by an arrow, taking him to negatives.  He Rages so he has a couple positive hit points that will disappear when the Rage runs out, putting him in negatives and killing him.

2) Boromir has used rage before getting hit, has a couple positive hit points left that will disappear when the Rage runs out, putting him in the negatives and killing him.

The two scenarios both have him walking around with a few positive hit points that will go away at the end of the Rage.  Aside from dramatics, what's the difference?


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 15, 2002)

ReignofGeekaos said:
			
		

> *I mean't assume of this arguement.....hell if I wanted I could have said how does he do it as a fifth level warrior, I'm not, I'm assuming those two things for this arguement, because I thing he has four attacks per round. *




Well, if you're going to make those assumptions, and impose them onto the discussion, then you should provide a detailed breakdown of how you thought it went in D&D terms at the start. That way others know what the parameters are. For example, it wasn't until this quoted post that I knew you were assuming he had 4 attacks per round.


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## TiQuinn (Aug 15, 2002)

Instead of assuming 4 attacks per round, why not count the number of attacks Boromir makes in 6 seconds?  Then make an estimate based off of that.  It didn't look like he was getting AoO's, but he might have pulled off a couple of cleaves there.  Plus Lurtz looks like he's only getting off one shot per round....two at most.  Whether all three are criticals or not, I think is open to debate.  I mean, really....what are the chances of all three shots being crits?


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## Nathanael (Aug 15, 2002)

In my games, we always call hit point loss as 'near hits.' In other words, the ability of a high level fighter to turn blows and roll with punches means that severe hits are reduced to near misses or scrapes until around 10 hp or so. Then the hits start connecting and mortal wounds follow. It actually explains hit points like this in either the PH or DMG, I can't remember which, in a Behind the Curtain box.

As for fighting with the three arrows in him, I would think he was at minus HP and using the Remain Conscious Feat from Sword & Fist and Oriental Adventures or, as is more likely considering his station, the Commander PRC.

Also, a deep wound to the torso that misses the heart won't necessarily kill you immediately. The shock may knock you out, and you will die without medical attention, but barring the painful inconvenience of having an arrow sticking in you, blood slowly filling your lungs as you fight for breath, whatever, you could still remain active and conscious. Hell, with only an abdominal wound, you could take many, very painful, days to die...


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## Broken Fang (Aug 15, 2002)

Well and then there is the fact that he wasn't using his shield...so he can't be that high level!     Those extra two points of AC could have really helped.  He has to be low level...a high level would know that he needs the extra AC against multiple opponents.


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## Hammerhead (Aug 15, 2002)

Boromir can't have Remain Conscious.  It requires Iron Will.  As can be seen by Boromir's corruption by the ring, he didn't have Iron Will.

Apparently, he got Great Cleave instead.

I see LotR as running off the WP/VP system.  He took a crit, resulting in wound damage, but not enough to kill him.  Then he runs down the death spiral, as the penalties allow the orc to continue putting arrows into him and causing more wound damage.


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## Umbran (Aug 15, 2002)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> *Boromir can't have Remain Conscious.  It requires Iron Will.  As can be seen by Boromir's corruption by the ring, he didn't have Iron Will. *




An interesting point, but where does it say that Iron Will assures you that you make all your Will saves against artifact-level magic items? 

Actually, maybe Boromir does have Iron Will - he has it to compensate for an average (or lower) wisdom.  I mean, anyone without the common sense to listen to the advice of Elrond and Gandalf isn't exactly wise themselves...


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## mattcolville (Aug 15, 2002)

ReignofGeekaos said:
			
		

> *Alright in the vain of Describe how Aragorn beat the Ringwraiths, I present another question to you? How does Boromir keep fighting, and killing those Orc's while he's defending Merry, and Pippin, using Dungeons and Dragon's rules.
> 
> Now there are a few things we can assume, one each of the Arrows he was shot with was a Critical, two he may have gone down below 0 Hp and kept fighting, Two, He somehow was able to keep fighting the Orc's even though he probably used up his attacks per round, three, he is most likely a high level fighter if not anything else, and four the size of those arrows leaves me to believe that every round he kept fighting they hurt him more, so let's say they where arrows of wounding.
> 
> ...




Seems obvious to me. He spends courage points. That's why he's a Hero.

What, you don't have Courage points in your game? Well since you're talking about the Lord of the Rings, maybe you should try the Lord of the Rings RPG.

Everyone else is.

This is the most shamless plug I've ever made, BTW. And for a game I didn't even work on! Man.


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## Uller (Aug 15, 2002)

Someone said:
			
		

> *...and already "dead" when he calls Aragorn "my King" (with great dismay of homophobes everywhere) Dead *




What the hell is this supposed to mean?  One can't declare his love and admiration for a comrade as he dies without being a homosexual?  Maybe I'm misinterpritting what you're saying here (given the poor gramer), but if I am understanding what you seem to be saying (that people who disapprove of homosexuality were somehow made uncomfortable by this scene) then me thinks you need to grow up...not everything in life is sexual.

My apologies if that is not what you are trying to say...

As for Boromir's continuing to fight?  He's just got a boat load of hit points.  Yes, even in real life you could have an arrow sticking out of your breast and be relatively okay.  I have a friend who worked in an ER and he said a patient WALKED into the ER with 13 gun shot wounds including several to the chest.  Some people are just amazingly tough...


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## Umbran (Aug 15, 2002)

Uller said:
			
		

> *
> 
> What the hell is this supposed to mean?  One can't declare his love and admiration for a comrade as he dies without being a homosexual?  *




In the eyes of some folks, no.  There are some who have problems with "love" being anything but "romantic love".  Usually the relationship between Frodo and Sam, as depicted in the books, is the one that gives these folks the willies.

It's silly, of course.  There's more than one kind of love and devotion.  Not everything is about sex, but there's a minority that does not see that.


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## William Ronald (Aug 15, 2002)

If I recall correctly, was not Rasputin poisoned, stabbed, shot and tied up and thrown into a river.  As I recall, he was still trying to surface for air.

Boromir likely knew that he was going to die as soon as he saw the orcs running at him.   People can summon a lot of will power to keep fighting through pain.

Also, I think Aragorn's healing skills were limited or very specialized.  If Aragorn admitted that Frodo needed Elrond's help to deal with a splinter of the Morgul knife, it is likely that Boromir's wounds (far worse in the book than the movie) were beyond his power to heal.


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## NoOneofConsequence (Aug 15, 2002)

*Incredibly tough*

Along the lines of the guy who walks into the ER with gunshot wounds, there's a true story in NZ of a farmer whose arm was torn off by a threshing machine. He picked it up, carried it a mile back to his farm house and rang for medical attention. What the human body can withstand is unthinkably amazing sometimes.

As for Boromir, I thought his fight just demonstrated that the abstraction of DnD hit points fairly adequately simulates heroic combat. He keeps taking hits, but because he isn't reduced to 0 hit points he keeps on fighting. Once he hits 0, he stops - but is not yet dead. That's how he is when Aragorn finds him, bleeding out.

My 2c.


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## William Ronald (Aug 15, 2002)

There is a tradition in ancient and medieval literature of strong friendships between people of the same gender.  Indeed, one can even site the friendship of David and Saul's son Jonathan in the Old Testament as an example of this.  (Perhaps Tolkien, who by the way was one of the translators for the Jerusalem Bible, recalled David's lament for Jonathan and Saul and used this as inspiration for the lament for Boromir in The Two Towers.)

Similarly strong friendships can be seen between those who have survived hardships together.  

I think the people who are uncomfortable with the friendship between Aragorn and Boromir or Frodo and Sam are barking up the wrong tree.  Perhaps they should examine their own motives.  I would wonder if these same people would have a problem with the real life stories of soldiers who risk a lot to save their brothers in arms or support them through hard times.  To feel empathy for others is not a weakness, but a strength.

I thought the dialogue in the film between Aragorn and Boromir fit the spirit of the Lord of the Rings.


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## ReignofGeekaos (Aug 15, 2002)

Well some people just scream and cry whenever intimacy is show between two man, so it's not that unheard of. Some are just idiots though. 

In any event I'm leaning on the Cleave, Great Cleave, and AoA idea since it seems to work the best, well that  a boat load of Hp.


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## LoneWolf23 (Aug 15, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *Similarly strong friendships can be seen between those who have survived hardships together.   *




Seems like in a lot of popular culture, there are always people who look at strong male friendships and automatically see "something more" in the subtext.  And it's not just in LoTR either.  

I, personally, am getting tired of people who automatically assume Yaoi (male-male) relationships occur within every Anime series featuring male characters with a strong friendship.  The most flagrant of this can be found amongst Gundam Wing fans ("Ooh, all the heroes are young _bishonen_ males, so they must be Gay, never mind their obvious female love interests") and in Digimon fandom ("Taichi and Yamato MUST have the hots for each other!  They keep giving hints about it!")

I have nothing against actual gay relationships between characters, but please, people, can we stop automatically assuming that hidden homosexual content is found in every series?


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 15, 2002)

Dramatic license.

But in D&D terms, as had been said, he's probably knocked down to negative by the arrows, and then bleeds as the orcs run by.  Aragorn doesn't kill the thing until Boromir reaches -9, which by then is too late.  Aragorn runs over to hear his last words, and poor Boromir dies.

His death is by far my favorite part of the entire book.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Aug 15, 2002)

*The Death of Boromir*

It still hurts, even THIS far out, when I watch Boromir die in that film.
  It is very unpleasant.  It is very sad.

  It whelms the actual book, in terms of power of feeling (no offense to Tolkien intended, folks.)

  - - -

  It is my opinion that Boromir was a high level fighter.
  Not Epic, but pretty class.
  Boromir also had some ranger levels, in my opinion.

  But that first arrow that hit Boromir, was a lethal hit.
  There was no way Boromir could have hoped to have survived that first hit - even had he been rushed to a modern hospital at once, with a full emergency room and a crew of surgeons, he might not have survived.
  The blow was a Critical Hit, and it punctured Boromir's lung (if you look at where it hit.)

  Boromir was in a situation where he still had Hit Points, per se, but they were RAPIDLY dwindling (as in, 10 to 20 points per round automatically lost, with no hope of stopping the loss.)

  In more Real Life terms, Boromir went into Battle Shock.
  In battle, warriors are known to have been able to continue fighting, long after they sustained mortal wounds - and, for that matter, wounds that should have immediately incapacitated them, like hits to the heart, liver, kidneys, or major arteries.
  Whether it was shock or something else, those warriors fought on, long after they should have gone down.

  I guess that, in 3rd edition terms, Boromir had the ability to keep fighting normally, even when he should have been Stunned (or worse.)
  And I am guessing that Boromir had the Feat that allows one to keep fighting to - 15 hit points, able to fully function at negative hit points when one should be dying instead.

  The second hit, from those giant war arrows from the long bow, hit Boromir in the stomach.
  Again, it was a Critical Hit, with the appropriate consequences (and the loss of Hit Points doubled.)

  The final hit was a direct hit to Boromir's heart.
  A double 20 Critical, as it were - an Instant Kill Critical.

  Even Boromir, for all his Feats, could no longer fight ... yet his indomitable spirit kept him alive a little longer ... long enough for his final words to Aragorn.


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## adndgamer (Aug 15, 2002)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *Or within the next 10 days from infection unless you have access to antibiotics. *




Antibiotics?  Blah!

Gimme some of that elven healing any day over petty antibiotics!


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## hong (Aug 15, 2002)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *The whole Boromir thing only points out flaws with hit point conventions (1+=healthy, 0=staggered, -10=dead).  These are only conventions that make bookkeeping easier.  If we cared about realism we would add Fort saves to stay standing/conscious.  Because of the style od D&D combat, that is not really worth the trouble.
> 
> It is silly to rack your brains over what feats to give Boromir.
> *




Bah. I bet you say the same thing in alignment wars.


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## Hammerhead (Aug 15, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> 
> An interesting point, but where does it say that Iron Will assures you that you make all your Will saves against artifact-level magic items?
> 
> Actually, maybe Boromir does have Iron Will - he has it to compensate for an average (or lower) wisdom.  I mean, anyone without the common sense to listen to the advice of Elrond and Gandalf isn't exactly wise themselves... *




While Iron Will doesn't mean he'd always make his saves, I think there's a DnD moral to the story if he doesn't have it, and, say, Aragorn does.  Aragorn takes Iron Will and thus is able to resist the ring, Boromir takes Great Cleave, mega-toughness, or something and succumbs to the ring, but leaves stacks of orc bodies when he dies.  Who helps the group more?

Besides, Boromir makes sense from a Gondor centered point of view.  If the Fellowship fails, Gondor is toast.  However, if the Fellowship sticks together and succeeds, Gondor is still ruined because all the great heroes are off with the Fellowship.  Gee, either way, he and his country lose.  On the other hand, he can use the ring and hope for the best.  Gondor probably lives and maybe Gandalf or someone takes him out before he becomes completely evil.


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## Someone (Aug 15, 2002)

Uller said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Maybe I'm misinterpritting what you're saying here (given the poor gramer), but if I am understanding what you seem to be saying *




Sorry for my lack of skill at the english language and in the use of smilies. It was a joke. Or maybe not, because I heard a lot of giggles in the cinema at that point.


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## Celtavian (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re*

Boromir is a very high level fighter. He has a very high Con, Str and Dex. His feats included Combat Reflexes, Cleave, and Great Cleave. When he downs one orc with another running close, he gets an extra hit on another one near. All these rules for cleaves and attacks are abstract, so it would not be too difficult to have an extra cleave attack look like just another sword attack.

On another note, I hope you have read the book as well as watched the movie. Boromir in the book had far more arrows stuck in him. I believe he was stuck with around 20 arrows in the book and was breaking them off while fighting. He also downed many more orcs than he did in the film. 

Boromir was the greatest warrrior in the Kingdom of Gondor, the greatest human kingdom in all the lands of Middle Earth. Boromir was an epic level fighter capable of fighting prowess second only to possibly Aragorn and Legolas, if that. 

Though overall I enjoyed the film, the battle with Boromir rather disappointed me. In the book, the orcs were so fearful of Boromir that they dared not even approach him even while he is barely alive and stuck with enough arrows to kill a 20 men. No orc even thought for one moment to stay behind and risk Boromir rising again for one last killing spree. I felt it was disrespectful to the Boromir character to have Aragorn have to save him. Boromir just didn't need saving, and I had hoped they would have stuck closer to the book. I guess they wanted one more action scene.

Boromir was one of my favorite characters in the book. I wish they could have kept more to the book battle than they did. I wanted to see Boromir cut down so many orcs that they refused to engage him in melee battle. Then about 10 orc archers would have started to pepper him with bow shots causing him to rush and kill more orcs. His horn would have been cleaved by some lucky blow struck by an orc who quickly died. Then they would have taken the hobbits, while Boromir was near dead but still standing glaring at the orcs. They would not have come near him out of fear. 

I just hope they do Eowyn properly in the next two movies. She is also one of my favorite characters. I wait to see the scene where she defies the leader of the Nazgul to protect her fallen king. One of my favorite parts in the whole book. Brings tears to my eyes everytime I read it.


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## Sarellion (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: Re*



			
				Celtavian said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I just hope they do Eowyn properly in the next two movies. She is also one of my favorite characters. I wait to see the scene where she defies the leader of the Nazgul to protect her fallen king. One of my favorite parts in the whole book. Brings tears to my eyes everytime I read it. *




I am not sure that they keep Eowyn. I heard that Arwen appears in Two Towers, too. I am not sure they would swap Eowyn for Arwen but I don´t know any other character they could possibly.


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## hong (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re*



			
				Sarellion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I am not sure that they keep Eowyn. I heard that Arwen appears in Two Towers, too. I am not sure they would swap Eowyn for Arwen but I don´t know any other character they could possibly. *




Eowyn is in, and is being played by Miranda Otto (noted Austrian actor, like Cate Blanchett).


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## kingpaul (Aug 15, 2002)

Uller said:
			
		

> *Yes, even in real life you could have an arrow sticking out of your breast and be relatively okay.  I have a friend who worked in an ER and he said a patient WALKED into the ER with 13 gun shot wounds including several to the chest.  Some people are just amazingly tough... *



Slightly on this topic:
Several years back, as a pedestrian, I got hit by a car who ran a red light, slammed up on the hood and rolled off the car onto the asphalt.  The car kept going.  I got up, dusted myself off, and walked the 10 blocks to the police station.  The duty sergeant was *very* surprised when I said I had just ben hit by a car.  Stupidly, didn't go to the hospital 'til the next day..._very_ sore that day.  Fortunately, only bruises.  Never foud the b!^#c who hit me though.

_Edit_: Corrected time frame


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## sword-dancer (Aug 15, 2002)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> *Boromir can't have Remain Conscious.  It requires Iron Will.  As can be seen by Boromir's corruption by the ring, he didn't have Iron Will.
> 
> Apparently, he got Great Cleave instead.
> 
> I see LotR as running off the WP/VP system.  He took a crit, resulting in wound damage, but not enough to kill him.  Then he runs down the death spiral, as the penalties allow the orc to continue putting arrows into him and causing more wound damage. *




Didn`t he get his save when he refused the imaginations of the ring, not earlier.

QUOTE]_Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith _
*

  In more Real Life terms, Boromir went into Battle Shock.
  In battle, warriors are known to have been able to continue fighting, long after they sustained mortal wounds - and, for that matter, wounds that should have immediately incapacitated them, like hits to the heart, liver, kidneys, or major arteries.
  Whether it was shock or something else, those warriors fought on, long after they should have gone down.

*[/QUOTE]

I would call it (besides Battle shock) sheer determination, people for which he felt responsible were in grave danger, through his own fault, failings and shortcomings in ihis point of view, and so he would do what he haedto do or die trying.
If it`s possible or not didn`t matter, not in the last.

I see him as somebody who was tricked in the trap of the ring by his feelings an´d duties.
He feel himself responsible for the people of Gondor, his duty was to protect them, and in his fear for them, and in his pride he didn`t saw the danger, and so he tumbled in the trap.
But he refused to succumb to the shadow.

Aragorn spoke from his great and glorious victory, meaning this.


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## Trepelano (Aug 15, 2002)

This reminds me of a rule I used to use in an old campaign called "heroic death".  Whenever a character died, and the character was well-played - I would reward the player with a "heroic death" round.  

In 3e terms that would mean that the character was Hasted and automatically rolled 20 on any and all dice rolls for a single round.

He could do or try anything (except of course saving himself) with heroic results.  Then he would die.

I would also allow "dead" characters to give a final farewell speech at the end of battle (if that's what they wanted)- nobody ever took me up on that one, though.

Of course - getting killed in a trap didn't really offer much of a chance sometimes (although he might save the rest of the party from the trap through some final act)


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## ElectricShrubbery (Aug 15, 2002)

My explaination for Boromir's vigor is simple:

He was a robot.


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## Falanor (Aug 15, 2002)

Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Endurance, Toughness, Iron Will, Remain Conscious

Yes he can have Iron Will, he lost an Ego battle with the One Ring is all.


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## Scribe Ineti (Aug 15, 2002)

LoneWolf23 said:
			
		

> *I have nothing against actual gay relationships between characters, but please, people, can we stop automatically assuming that hidden homosexual content is found in every series?  *




I agree completely.  I was totally floored when a friend told me he liked "The Phantom Menace" but didn't like the "special" relationship between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. 

I was like, "Whaaa?"  He went on to make some stupid jokes about using the Force and such. 

Where do people get this stuff from?


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## TiQuinn (Aug 15, 2002)

And don't get me started on that special relationship between Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore.....old man and a young boy....I'm shocked that this would ever see print let alone film!


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## TiQuinn (Aug 15, 2002)

Now what I want to know is this:

How did Frodo break Boromir's grapple when he got away with the ring?  Boromir's got a pretty good strength!  And we're talking about a hobbit!  Sheesh!


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## ElectricShrubbery (Aug 15, 2002)

I see none of you know what 'slash' is.


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## S'mon (Aug 15, 2002)

LoneWolf23 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Seems like in a lot of popular culture, there are always people who look at strong male friendships and automatically see "something more" in the subtext.  And it's not just in LoTR either.
> 
> ...




Hm - one of the Gundam Wing characters certainly seemed highly effeminate, I thought, when I watched it - also he seemed to be in love with one of the others.  AIR it was the blond one, can't remember his name...


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## S'mon (Aug 15, 2002)

ElectricShurbbery said:
			
		

> *I see none of you know what 'slash' is. *




*Raises hand*

I do!  I do!  

Heck, I was on a Blake's Seven mailing list for several months, I even dated one of the (female) members (I'm male).


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## S'mon (Aug 15, 2002)

Someone said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Sorry for my lack of skill at the english language and in the use of smilies. It was a joke. Or maybe not, because I heard a lot of giggles in the cinema at that point. *




I think this must be an American thing - I watched LoTR in London, it didn't occur to me, my wife, or anyone else in the cinema AFAIK that there was anything homoerotic about Boromir's death scene, though it was dreadfully over-dramatised IMO.

Tolkien doesn't seem to have been much interested in women in intellectual terms (he was married, had children, etc), his world centred around male-male (platonic) friendships and his writings reflect that.


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## Hakkenshi (Aug 15, 2002)

Well sometimes it's pretty hard not to "imagine" these things. I'm sure a lot of twisted people who weren't really into LotR but went to see the movie thought Sam and Frodo were gay. I sure as hell didn't...I just saw a great friendship. Love does exist between two entirely heterosexual best friends.

But I think that's besides the point, since LotR is entirely apart from that sort of debate, IMHO. It's not a question of Tolkien being pro-homosexuality or homophobic, it's just not an issue in the story, or in that world, at all.

Anime is another matter, if I may go off-topic for a second. Anyone seen Evangelion? 

And S'mon, you're thinking of Quatre, I believe.

As for the Phantom Menace, well...I'm so stunned I don't really know what to say. Except...where does Darth Maul fit in?


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## wolff96 (Aug 15, 2002)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> *How did Frodo break Boromir's grapple when he got away with the ring?  Boromir's got a pretty good strength!  And we're talking about a hobbit!  Sheesh!  *




He has really, really high ranks in Escape Artist.

Or: when he put on the ring, Boromir was so surprised that he let go for just a moment -- long enough to get away.

Besides, the hobbit can always roll a '20' while the human rolls a '1', you know.


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## TiQuinn (Aug 15, 2002)

wolff96 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> He has really, really high ranks in Escape Artist.
> 
> ...




Personally, I think Peter Jackson was cheating.  He should've consulted the 3rd edition rules first.


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## Corinth (Aug 15, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *Hm - one of the Gundam Wing characters certainly seemed highly effeminate, I thought, when I watched it - also he seemed to be in love with one of the others.  AIR it was the blond one, can't remember his name...   *




Quatre Raberra Winner: heir of the Winner family, leader of the Magunac Corps and pilot of Gundam Sandrock.


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## Chromnos (Aug 15, 2002)

Reality is stranger than fantasy-

In reality many people have survived from being stabbed dozens of times in the chest. In truth, not every hit the chest will be vital. Arrows do more damage going out than coming in. Arrows lodged in the lungs will cause internal bleeding but as long as the puncture remains sealed, the lung retains integrity and the wounded person may keep breathing.

Even if the heart were punctured, it could continue to beat for many minutes or even hours after the puncture occured.

This happens, in combat, on occasion. In Mogadishu, a Ranger was struck by an RPG round. The RPG lodged in his chest cavity but didn't go off. It had entered under his right arm-pit and it's tip pushed all the way through until it came out of his chest on the far side. Lungs, heart, everything was subject to severe trauma from the force of impact, the high heat of the round entering the chest (It happened at night and eye-witnesses reported they could see the round glowing through his skin), and the fact that vital organs were pierced.  

Regardless, the soldier retained vital signs for many hours. Combat doctors, being unable to help the poor guy, labled him as expectant and left him to die while expending their energy on others they could save.

In game terms, to take a good number of arrow hits, all one has to have are crazy hit points. Boromir was a high level fighter. That makes it all nice and easy.

The Ranger- now there's one I'd like to see explained in game terms.

-C


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## Uller (Aug 15, 2002)

Chromnos said:
			
		

> *
> In game terms, to take a good number of arrow hits, all one has to have are crazy hit points. Boromir was a high level fighter. That makes it all nice and easy.
> 
> The Ranger- now there's one I'd like to see explained in game terms.
> ...




That's easy.  He stablized.   But with no one tending him, he continued to lose hitpoints until dying...

From the SRD:


> A character who stabilizes on its own (by making the 10% roll while dying) and who has no one to tend for it still loses hit points, just at a slower rate. The character has a 10% chance each hour of becoming conscious. *Each time the character misses the hourly roll to become conscious, the character loses 1 hit point.* The character also does not recover hit points through natural healing.
> 
> Even once the character becomes conscious and is disabled, an unaided character still does not recover hit points naturally. Instead, each day he has a 10% chance to start recovering hit points naturally (starting with that day); *otherwise, the character loses 1 hit point.*




Emphasis mine.


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## Chromnos (Aug 15, 2002)

Uller said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's easy.  He stablized.   But with no one tending him, he continued to lose hitpoints until dying...
> 
> ...




Ah, the SRD. Good translation and rules track. Thanks!

-C


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## ReignofGeekaos (Aug 16, 2002)

New question. What does something a Son of Gondor prestige class would entail, would it be like a Purple Dragon Knight, or a Warder, or a Commander?


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## Corinth (Aug 16, 2002)

This needs to be a prestige class?  Boromir is a fighter, pure and simple.


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## Celtavian (Aug 16, 2002)

*Re*



> Well sometimes it's pretty hard not to "imagine" these things. I'm sure a lot of twisted people who weren't really into LotR but went to see the movie thought Sam and Frodo were gay. I sure as hell didn't...I just saw a great friendship. Love does exist between two entirely heterosexual best friends.




The times we live in dictate people's perception. It is highly disappointing that modern children and young adults reading or watching LOTR might somehow interpret Sam and Frodo's love for one another as anything more than a deep loving friendship. 

I know this isn't the popular opinion, but the above is exactly why homosexuality should not be condoned as a normal, healthy form of behavior in any society. It destroys sex roles and harms the relationship between men by making ambiguous lines of what friendship and love between men should be like. I will never in all my days of life teach my children that homosexuality is a tolerable, normal, healthy form of behavior.


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## ReignofGeekaos (Aug 17, 2002)

When did this topic become Homosexuality in Lord of the Rings. Last time I checked it was about how Boromir kept fighting off those Orc's, so some morons read the last scene wrong, so what their are always idiots out there.

And as much as you make like it or not Homosexuality exist, hell Sir Ian Mckellen plays Gandalf and he's openly gay, does it really mess with your preception of his role much? Does it even really matter at all. 

It's something that happens in society so what big deal, it doesn't matter except to small minded people, or someone with a teenage mentality. I myself am not gay, but it still pisses me off when I read something stupid about it. In our day, and age it's not that big a thing, and it only seems to matter to Bible thumpers or Morons.

In any case it doesn't matter because the topic of the thread was How he kept fighting not Boromir a flaming fag?


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 17, 2002)

The thread will be locked if this goes much further. It's been an interesting thread, so let's see if it can get back on-topic.


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## ReignofGeekaos (Aug 17, 2002)

I agree. If it does keep going I'll ask the mods to close it myself. Now I didn't say Boromir needed a prestige class. I was thinking more of what would a Son of Gondor, or Protecter of the White City prestige class be like. I think the idea has some merit, and could be very interesting to see what people come up with.


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## William Ronald (Aug 17, 2002)

Although it has been  referred to elsewhere, adrenalin is useful in a fight.  It is possible to ignore some of the pain while in an adrenalin rush.

I hope this thread can stay on topic.

Another thought:  Possibly the Numenorean blood in Boromir's family might have given him some sort of constitution bonus.  Although it seems that the exceptional Numenorean traits in Boromirs family (Denethor, Faramir) were mostly in terms of mental ability.   Maybe a will save bonus.  (The Ring was incredibly tempting, as Boromir wanted to save his people and fulfill the boyhood fantasy of being a mighty king.  Read the Two Towers about Boromir's desire for kingship.)


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## Celtavian (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re*

I don't see the difficulty in determining why Boromir kept fighting.

Middle Earth is a low magic campaign with it's fair share of powerful items.

I just think Boromir was a high level figher with a low armor class. He didn't wear much armor and I don't think it was enchanted.

He could have quite a few feats for cutting down numerous low level foes considering he has been fighting the orc armies of Mordor almost his entire adult life. He could have taken that many arrow shots because he has alot of hit points.

As I said before, they streamlined Boromir against the orcs from the book. Boromir had alot more arrows in him in the book than he did the movie. Three lousy arrows to down Boromir the Brave is ludicrous.


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## Corinth (Aug 17, 2002)

Not if Lurtz is a 4th level fighter with Str 18, a mighty composite longbow (+4), WF:CLB & WS:CLB and Boromir is a 12th level human fighter.  With all other stats as per the DMG NPC defaults, Boromir goes down in three average-damage critical hits (which is how I see it) and was about to get CGDed when Aragorn arrives.


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## ReignofGeekaos (Aug 17, 2002)

Hell you could almost argue that he was the epitome of his race, meaning that if he was Suraman obvisuly placed him in charge due to the fact he was in fact superior to his breathen, so he may have had a higher Str and Con, as the fight with Aragorn showed he was a pretty tough guy.


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## CMonkey (Aug 17, 2002)

Maybe it wasn't down to his hitpoints at all. The arrows could have been enchanted with the Poison or Contagion spells and/or the Wounding and human Bane traits.

That'd settle his hash in short order...

CM.


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## Bob Aberton (Aug 17, 2002)

What happened to Boromir IS plausible in RL.

The hit to the lung was not neccessarily fatal, although it did cause internal bleeding.  A person can live with just one lung...

The hit to the abdomen pierced the intestines, but, once again, was not instantly fatal.  Boromir never would have survived the infection that followed, but he could and did survive the pain and internal bleeding.

The hit to the heart did NOT fully pierce the heart.  If it was just a graze, he probably could have fought on.

Also, given Boromir's position as a leader of the Armies of Gondor, he probably had a few levels in the Commander class, hence the "fight to the bitter end" ability which allowed him to keep fighting.

Boromir (Human Ftr15/Commander4)

As a side note, the notorious pirate Edward Teach, better known as Blackbeard, fought on for something like THREE HOURS with 25 gunshot wounds to the torso and a cut throat.  He eventually collapsed from blood loss after three hours of fighting.


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## Abdul Al Hazrad (Aug 18, 2002)

I've given this some thought recently myself, not so much in terms of how Boromir kept fighting, but the relative levels of the characters. Here's my 2 cents:

Gandalf = 20th level wizard + ECL +5 as a 1/2 Celestial
Aragorn = 18th level ranger/3rd level paladin
Legolas = 21st level ranger
Gimli = 21st level fighter
Boromir = 16th level fighter
Frodo = 3rd level commoner/3rd level fighter
Sam = 2nd level commoner/2nd level bard
Merry = 1st level commoner/1st level ranger
Pippen = 1st level commoner/1st level Paladin

What do y'all think?


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## Celtavian (Aug 18, 2002)

*Re*

There is no way Boromir was a lesser fighter than Legolas or Gimli. He had fought far more often in his short human life than either of them. 

He is the best human warrior in the most prominent human kingdom of that time. Even Faramir and the other men acknowledged him as their best war leader and warrior. 

Are you using the book or the movie to determine his level? Just remember, they chumped Boromir in the movie.


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## hong (Aug 18, 2002)

ReignofGeekaos said:
			
		

> *I agree. If it does keep going I'll ask the mods to close it myself. Now I didn't say Boromir needed a prestige class. I was thinking more of what would a Son of Gondor, or Protecter of the White City prestige class be like. I think the idea has some merit, and could be very interesting to see what people come up with. *




Well, if you go purely by what's in the books, you don't really have a lot to work with. What do we know about Boromir, in terms of concrete abilities? He's tough, he fights orcs, and it takes a lot to kill him. This is pretty vague material for basing an entire prestige class on. Ideally, a prestige class should represent a specific character concept, organisation or skillset. Boromir is basically a really badass fighter; you don't need a prestige class just for that. "Son of Gondor" is just an honorific for any (male) person from Gondor, so a prestige class based around that would be like a prestige class based on being a Cormyrian or a Greyhawk citizen. Not very sensible, nu?

Now you certainly could come up with a "White Tower guard" or "Ithilien ranger" prestige class; these are slightly more specific roles than just "son of Gondor". However, if you want to come up with abilities to fill out 10 levels, or even 5 levels, you're going to have to think laterally.

Also, if you're thinking only in terms of how the result would fit into your game, as opposed to building a completely new setting, you don't really have to make up new prestige classes from scratch. There are already plenty of guardsman, archer or captain PrCs out there. Just file off the serial numbers and make whatever changes are necessary to fit your own game.


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## Ezrael (Sep 30, 2002)

Well, here's a possible perspective that might help.

When I was fourteen, I was shot by a hunting broadleaf arrow fired by a drunken deer hunter in a tree with a composite bow. The arrow went into my pelvis, just above the gas tank of the dirtbike I was on at the time.

I did not feel it. I *saw* it, but I felt nothing. I rode the bike home, got off, walked up to my front door, opened it, walked into the house, told my mother to come into the kitchen, and went to the fridge for a coke. She came into the kitchen and saw the arrow lodged in me and screamed, and that's the last thing I remember. (I passed out at that point.) I still have a scar to the left and down from my belly where it hit me. 

So I can say that if I, a totally normal (possibly even subnormal) young man, could go ten miles on a motorcycle after taking an arrow, it's possible for a warrior of Gondor to keep fighting. Secondly, it's not like plausibility is the first concern of the story, really.

**Edited because I saw that I'd typed the arrow went *through* my pelvis, which would have been a lot worse than what actually happened, which is that it lodged in me.


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## Dragongirl (Sep 30, 2002)

Well this isn't D&D rules, but under the old Iron Crown MERP rules Boromir was a 20th level warrior with 150 HPs, for comparison Aragorn was a 36th level ranger with 185 HPs.


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## MasterOfHeaven (Sep 30, 2002)

I have to agree with Celtavian.  They really shafted Boromir in the movie.  Aragorn having to "rescue" him was so stupid.  I understand Peter Jackson had to make some changes to the book to make it a good movie, but that is inexcusable.  Aragorn should've come upon Boromir after the Orcs had already run off, with piles of them slain at Boromirs feet.  

I'd also agree Boromir was just as powerful as anyone else in the Fellowship, bar Gandalf.  He was the greatest warrior in the entirety of Middle Earth, though that's not really reflected well in the movies.


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## hong (Sep 30, 2002)

MasterOfHeaven said:
			
		

> *I have to agree with Celtavian.  They really shafted Boromir in the movie.  Aragorn having to "rescue" him was so stupid.  I understand Peter Jackson had to make some changes to the book to make it a good movie, but that is inexcusable.  Aragorn should've come upon Boromir after the Orcs had already run off, with piles of them slain at Boromirs feet.  *




The orcs _had_ already run off, and there _were_ piles of them at Boromir's feet.


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## Dragongirl (Sep 30, 2002)

MasterOfHeaven said:
			
		

> *I'd also agree Boromir was just as powerful as anyone else in the Fellowship, bar Gandalf.  He was the greatest warrior in the entirety of Middle Earth, though that's not really reflected well in the movies. *




I would hardly agree with that, he was certainly less powerful than the noldor elves of the 1st age and the early Dunadan.  I also believe Aragorn was more powerful than Boromir.


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## MasterOfHeaven (Sep 30, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I would hardly agree with that, he was certainly less powerful than the noldor elves of the 1st age and the early Dunadan.  I also believe Aragorn was more powerful than Boromir. *




Really?  Did you miss the part where I said "In the Fellowship"?  I'm not talking about the entire world and it's entire history, few if any could match the power of the Noldor Elves of the First Age.  I'd disagree that Aragorn was more powerful than Boromir, by the by.  If you can give me a few reasons why you think he's more powerful, I'll debate the issue with you.


Hong:

Oh?  I seem to remember a few Orcs at Boromirs feet, (Boromir only killed 6-10 Orcs from what I saw) not piles of them.  Furthermore, I also seem to recall an Orc about to fire an arrow into Boromirs face right before Aragorn shows up.  Hardly representative of what happens in the book.


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## Dragongirl (Sep 30, 2002)

MasterOfHeaven said:
			
		

> *Really?  Did you miss the part where I said "In the Fellowship"?  I'm not talking about the entire world and it's entire history, few if any could match the power of the Noldor Elves of the First Age.*




Sorry, when you said "He was the greatest warrior in the entirety of Middle Earth" I wrongly inferred you meant ever.



			
				MasterOfHeaven said:
			
		

> *I'd disagree that Aragorn was more powerful than Boromir, by the by.  If you can give me a few reasons why you think he's more powerful, I'll debate the issue with you.*




This is mostly my opinion that Aragorn was more powerful than Boromir.  Not only my opinion but at least also of Iron Crown Enterprises when they made their version of RPG rules.  They made Boromir 20th level and Aragorn 36th.  I have not seen the new rules that came out to see their opinion on the matter.  Unfortuneatly the only person that could truly settle this has been dead for several decades.  Why is your opinion that Boromir was greater than Aragorn?


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## hong (Sep 30, 2002)

MasterOfHeaven said:
			
		

> *
> Oh?  I seem to remember a few Orcs at Boromirs feet, (Boromir only killed 6-10 Orcs from what I saw) not piles of them.  *




Go back to the scene where Aragorn rushes over to check on Boromir, after killing Lurtz. There are literally heaps of bodies all over the place.



> *Furthermore, I also seem to recall an Orc about to fire an arrow into Boromirs face right before Aragorn shows up.  Hardly representative of what happens in the book. *




In the book, Boromir lies dying when Aragorn finds him. The only license that was taken was to have an uber-orc (with more plot immunity than the rest) around to provide a fitting climax to the battle.

Your issue seems to be that that fitting climax didn't involve Boromir. Oh well.


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## MasterOfHeaven (Sep 30, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Sorry, when you said "He was the greatest warrior in the entirety of Middle Earth" I wrongly inferred you meant ever.
> 
> ...




Boromir was supposedly the best warrior of the greatest Human Kingdom in Middle Earth.  He fought against the armies of Mordor nearly constantly, and IMO had more experience than almost any other man in the world.  Aragorn is close, perhaps equal to Boromir in fighting power, but he's certainly not better.  The thing that makes Aragorn a stronger person than Boromir is his greater willpower and leadership capabilities.  But as far as sheer fighting power goes, Boromir is definitely the best. 

Hong:

I don't think there was any more than fifteen Orcs on the ground in that scene.  I'd have to check to make sure, though.   And my issue with the scene is that, originally, Boromir makes a valiant last stand, crushing Orc after Orc, trying to save Merry and Pippin, and even when he's practically got no life left in him, the Orcs are so afraid of him they just get the hell out of there.

In the movie, Aragorn has to "save" Boromir, which is the whole issue I have with the scene.  Boromir shouldn't have to be "saved", he was perfectly capable of taking care of his last stand by himself.


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## hong (Sep 30, 2002)

MasterOfHeaven said:
			
		

> *
> I don't think there was any more than fifteen Orcs on the ground in that scene.  I'd have to check to make sure, though. *




Sheesh. Does it really matter if it's 15 or 150? One guy killing 15 orcs is still a superhuman effort by most standards.



> *And my issue with the scene is that, originally, Boromir makes a valiant last stand, crushing Orc after Orc, trying to save Merry and Pippin, and even when he's practically got no life left in him, the Orcs are so afraid of him they just get the hell out of there.*




This isn't made explicit in the book. There, all that happens is that Boromir kills a lot of orcs, but eventually goes down. It's quite possible that they may have wanted to butcher him, but were told to get a move on by their leaders once they'd got the halflings -- as happened in the film.



> *In the movie, Aragorn has to "save" Boromir, which is the whole issue I have with the scene.  Boromir shouldn't have to be "saved", he was perfectly capable of taking care of his last stand by himself. *




And he did. He died, just like in the book.


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## Dragongirl (Sep 30, 2002)

MasterOfHeaven said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Boromir was supposedly the best warrior of the greatest Human Kingdom in Middle Earth.  He fought against the armies of Mordor nearly constantly, and IMO had more experience than almost any other man in the world.  Aragorn is close, perhaps equal to Boromir in fighting power, but he's certainly not better.  The thing that makes Aragorn a stronger person than Boromir is his greater willpower and leadership capabilities.  But as far as sheer fighting power goes, Boromir is definitely the best. *




Well, Aragorn has been fighting evil all his life as well, and he is quite a bit older.  By the time of the War of the Ring Boromir is about 41 while Aragorn is about 88.  Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.  

Edit : Corrected Typo


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## mirzabah (Sep 30, 2002)

ReignofGeekaos said:
			
		

> *Alright in the vain of Describe how Aragorn beat the Ringwraiths, I present another question to you? How does Boromir keep fighting, and killing those Orc's while he's defending Merry, and Pippin, using Dungeons and Dragon's rules.*



These questions are sooo lame. It should be obvious to anyone that Boromir _wasn't_ using d20 rules. He was quite clearly using the *Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG* rules and simply spent Drama Points on the "I think I'm OK" option. This only halves Life Point damage, so eventually he got taken to below -10 and failed his Survival roll. He then used the "Famous Last Words" rule to confess to Aragorn about trying to take the ring from Frodo. It's all really quite straightforward.


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## Horacio (Oct 1, 2002)

_Buffy RPG_ rules are wondeful  for dramatic combats, if you don't mind a bit lets of feats, combos, squares and so on 

I love _Buffy RPG_ almost as much as I love D&D...


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## uberhiker (Dec 30, 2004)

*Boromir*

Simply, he was a butcher.  A seasoned, trained warrior fighting new recruits.  It was the massacre it should have been.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 30, 2004)

Now THAT was a powerful casting of "Raise Dead"


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## Qlippoth (Dec 31, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Now THAT was a powerful casting of "Raise Dead"



You're telling me! I'd gone through 3/4ths of the posts before noticing the year-stamp.

(after a few beers, mind you)


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## Ibram (Dec 31, 2004)

I think at this point we are talking about a True Resurection....

Thankfully I caught on when someone asked if Eowyn was going to be in the other movies... saved me having to read through a thread that I probably read 4 years ago.


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## Tom Cashel (Dec 31, 2004)

He's a Tough Hero, with the talent to Remain Conscious.

In a fantasy setting.


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## Enkhidu (Dec 31, 2004)

I'm more than a little surprised no one said that Jackson was using Ken Hood's Grim and Gritty ruleset.


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## CCamfield (Jan 1, 2005)

I'm going to go with what Ridley's Cohort said, more or less... D&D is not the One True Ruleset of realism or even of emulating fantasy.  But then again, pretty much any system that has hit points and no penalties for injuries before unconsciousness/death has the same trouble here.  (I'm playing in a Silver Age Sentinels campaign at the moment, and it would have the same problem, I think.)

I don't really know the details of Mutants & Masterminds combat system, but I think it might be appropriate.  I understand that it involves making Fortitude saves when hit, and if you fail, your character drops to the next state of injury.  But if you make the save, the hit has no effect.  In such a system Boromir might be on the last level of injury before death, with lots of penalties, but at that point he miraculously keeps making his saves for a long time.


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## Aesmael (Jan 3, 2005)

Enkhidu said:
			
		

> I'm more than a little surprised no one said that Jackson was using Ken Hood's Grim and Gritty ruleset.



Did that even exist at the time this discussion happened?


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## CCamfield (Jan 5, 2005)

MasterOfHeaven said:
			
		

> Boromir was supposedly the best warrior of the greatest Human Kingdom in Middle Earth.  He fought against the armies of Mordor nearly constantly, and IMO had more experience than almost any other man in the world.  Aragorn is close, perhaps equal to Boromir in fighting power, but he's certainly not better.  The thing that makes Aragorn a stronger person than Boromir is his greater willpower and leadership capabilities.  But as far as sheer fighting power goes, Boromir is definitely the best.




By the by...

I honestly do not know how one is supposed to conclude either way, since they didn't fight to the death.   But I just wanted to point out that Boromir may have been the greatest _known_ warror _of Gondor_ but that does exclude the Rangers.  Aragorn served under another name in Gondor for a while, but I think we can presume that he didn't try to stand out.


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## taitzu52 (Jan 5, 2005)

Rage?  No way, he's a noble.  I simply think that Peter Jackson's take on it is simply not fitting with d20 rules.  Let's face it kids, "hit points" are utterly unrealistic, even with critical hits.  In Two Towers, (yes kids, he died in the second book), he was pierced with 40+ arrows, that's much more d20 than the movie.  Being a huge fan of the books, I will say that Boromir was one of the best characters in the movies, both in acting and scripting.  So let's just come to terms: hit points and realism are like oil and water.  Just wing it.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Jan 5, 2005)

And Sean Bean is the bomb.


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