# Wishing for Immortality (Unaging actually)?



## AbsolutGrndZer0 (Jun 13, 2010)

Would it be beyond the scope of Wish to gain unaging? I don't mean like full immortality hard to kill etc, just stop aging.


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## frankthedm (Jun 13, 2010)

AbosolutGrndZer0 said:


> Would it be beyond the scope of Wish to gain unaging? I don't mean like full immortality hard to kill etc, just stop aging.



 Wish is nice and specific on what it can do with a full on *warning* about exceeding those bounds. 

Wish
[sblock]   *  Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
    * Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
    * Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
    * Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
    * Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
    * Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
    * Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish.
    * Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
    * Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
    * Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend's failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.[/sblock] 
_You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)_

There are several ways to stop aging within the power of a wish spell. Chances are you won't want any of them.


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## AbsolutGrndZer0 (Jun 13, 2010)

What about wishing to be an outsider? Most outsiders are considered immortal, are they not?


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## Sigurd (Jun 13, 2010)

A lot depends on your DM and how hard you've worked for the wish.

The guidelines for the wish spell are certainly there but they are only guidelines.

Non aging is a rather weak ability at most tables because characters usually die by outside effects. Look at the disparity between life spans.

I would have the character research a solution so that you could know more about what you want. Becoming an outsider or changing race certainly would be one way of doing it.

Reincarnation is disorienting but you keep all your game skills. You could be reincarnated as a race with a very long lifespan.

Another possibility might be service to a high magic that has a way to keep you alive because they need you.

Some PRCs have immortality as a perk too. Assuming you don't want to be a lich or an undead there are other options.

Talk to your DM.


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## Alzrius (Jun 13, 2010)

frankthedm said:


> Wish is nice and specific on what it can do with a full on *warning* about exceeding those bounds.




Personally, I don't care for the interpretation of _wish_ that it's limited to reproducing the specific effects outlined in its description, which basically make it a powerful _anyspell_. Rather, I see those as guidelines for adjudicating how strong a result you can get. (Skip Williams talks about this more in Kobold Quarterly #10.)

That said, I believe that the question of using a _wish_ to stop aging is directly dealt with in the 2E _Complete Book of Necromancers_, where it states that a properly-worded _wish_ can stop your aging for up to a thousand years, but after that you'll need to find another method of agelessness (the implication seemed to be that you can't just keep using a _wish_ in that manner every millenium).


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## ruemere (Jun 13, 2010)

Only a GM is aware of limitations of Wish. For example, in Scarred Lands, two NPCs are said to pursue immortality, however the Wish spells allowed them only to stave off age penalties and gain perfect health. Implication is that Wish cannot grant unaging.

That said, if you _Wish_ to _Reincarnate_ into a creature belonging to the same race and of the same sex, you should be pretty much on a safe side. 

Regards,
Ruemere


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## Crothian (Jun 13, 2010)

AbsolutGrndZer0 said:


> Would it be beyond the scope of Wish to gain unaging? I don't mean like full immortality hard to kill etc, just stop aging.




It is really going to depend on the DM I think.  Not aging is not a strong ability in D&D so I'd have no problem allowing it.  Or maybe to limit it some say a Wish would allow no aging for a set period of time.


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## grufflehead (Jun 13, 2010)

Better hope that whoever is making that Wish is either casting the spell him/herself, or getting it from an unimpeachable source. Cos that's so easy to twist into several degrees of nastiness, they are going to end up wishing they hadn't...


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## frankthedm (Jun 14, 2010)

Alzrius said:


> Rather, I see those as guidelines for adjudicating how strong a result you can get.



That is exactly what they are. Guidelines for how potent a safe wish should be. Anything that would be reasonable for an 8th level arcane spell. Bringing back someone who was completely destroyed takes *two wishes*. if it happens last round you could instead use one wish to give them a reroll that might fail anyway.



Alzrius said:


> That said, I believe that the question of using a _wish_ to stop aging is directly dealt with in the 2E _Complete Book of Necromancers_, where it states that a properly-worded _wish_ can stop your aging for up to a thousand years, but after that you'll need to find another method of agelessness (the implication seemed to be that you can't just keep using a _wish_ in that manner every millenium).



I don't feel that is applicable since wishes were far more costly in 2E. 

what it all comes down to is that Wishes are *supposed* to be weaker that what the used to be because they are not as costly / rare as they used to be.


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## pawsplay (Jun 14, 2010)

Unaging is effectively permanancy on a hypothetical spell that halts aging for some period of time. Seems okay as it is. Now, if you don't want a permanent unaging effect, but to literally halt aging, that seems like it might be pushing it. I might allow each wish to stall it for some amount of time. Literal unaging immmortality might come at some price; transforming into a native outsider with some kind of drawback seems like a beginning.

Perhaps the character is affected by the flow of time, and takes a -5 penalty to initiative; further, he must make a DC 15 Int check the first round of combat or be dazed for a round. 

Or maybe the process distorts his ability to change and grow. Healing is at 1/10 normal rate, XP received is halved.

Or maybe it works basically as hoped, turning him into a quasi-immortal; however, he spends d% years in a cocoon as he transforms.


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## gamerprinter (Jun 14, 2010)

*Making yourself a target...*

Don't worry, I've developed a new class of divine assassins for Pathfinder for an upcoming publication, whose sole goal is to eliminate anyone who attempts to unnaturally extending their life beyond their normal limits. I have a goddess of Life whose concern is maintaining the balance and normal extent of life. It is her priests that will hunt you down and put a necessary end to you life! 

So you go pursue this unnatural goal of yours, but be alert and keep an eye open when you sleep (now that they know about you...) a divine contract has been placed on your PC's life.

As a GM I do not allow wishes to grant extensions of life, that is too powerful to achieve with a wish. A wish might raise a stat like Strength, but I don't allow it to break classes, spells, abilities or grant extensions in life. You need something much more powerful than a wish to achieve that. I know this vampire...

GP


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## gerroditus (Jun 14, 2010)

As a long time DM and reading the actual query, specifically mentioning that it is only the un-aging aspect being sought, I would say that it's entirely reasonable. It really gives away NOTHING in game terms unless the DM has a game spanning decades at least.  My game does do this, but very few DMs follow suit. This is essentially an up-gunned version of the Druid or Monk "Timeless Body" ability.  Indeed there are planes that essentially timeless in and of themselves, with zero aging effect for any thing or anyone on them.

Like most items under DM supervision, this one comes down to common sense.  The DM simply asks themselves; how much game effect will this have?  Overwhelming = Sorry Charlie, it's too much.  Otherwise there is no _good_ reason not to let the Player have something from a wish that isn't directly in the rules but that won't disrupt the game.


Isshia


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## Psychotic Jim (Jun 14, 2010)

gerroditus said:


> As a long time DM and reading the actual query, specifically mentioning that it is only the un-aging aspect being sought, I would say that it's entirely reasonable. It really gives away NOTHING in game terms unless the DM has a game spanning decades at least.  My game does do this, but very few DMs follow suit. This is essentially an up-gunned version of the Druid or Monk "Timeless Body" ability.  Indeed there are planes that essentially timeless in and of themselves, with zero aging effect for any thing or anyone on them.
> 
> Like most items under DM supervision, this one comes down to common sense.  The DM simply asks themselves; how much game effect will this have?  Overwhelming = Sorry Charlie, it's too much.  Otherwise there is no _good_ reason not to let the Player have something from a wish that isn't directly in the rules but that won't disrupt the game.
> 
> ...





I tend to agree with this.  There's nothing really mechanically broken about this at all (in fact, going out of your way to do it would just be mostly for rping/in character reasons.  The only thing I see that might be an issue is for flavor/dramatic purposes (how much does it take to become unaging?).  If  a player would to do this in game, I think I'd probably use it as an occasional plot hook or source of drama relating to possible complications of being unaging.  But I wouldn’t really set out to screw over a player for something as minor as this barring extraordinary circumstances (like getting a wish from a trapped efreet).  In fact, this idea of wishing to not age actually sounds like a fun game/story development idea, pretty cool.


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## Runestar (Jun 14, 2010)

In Lords of Darkness, it mentions that Lord Shadow used wish spells to extend his lifespan, and mentions this process is made easier because he is a shade with a longer lifespan compared to a normal human. So it suggests that wish can be used to replicate the effects of the extended life span epic feat. 

Though this means that if you are a race with a rather short lifespan like a human or half orc (compared to elves or dwarves), you get the short end of the stick.


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## gerroditus (Jun 14, 2010)

Again, it all seems like just flavoring.  The elves are fairly often referred to various scenarios as "the immortal elves", which they certainly are from a human perspective.  The "Epic Feat" that adds a paltry few years to the human life span seems woefully and embarrassingly under powered compared to sooooo many other Epic Feats.

In earlier editions a Wish was the ideal way of pealing back the wrinkles, but D&D 3+ changed things.  Really, if you have to stick to canon and dismiss common sense, it should be an artifact level thing, say creating a philosopher stone (or three if you are as nasty a DM as I am....of course the player, who was epic, who did this in my game got a good deal more than simple agelessness for breaking three Philosophers Stones) and using it's core to create an "elixir of life".


Isshia


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## Kaisoku (Jun 14, 2010)

Reincarnate is a 4th level spell that bypasses the aging problem.

It is a spell that needs to be effectively re-cast every so many years to maintain that un-aging effect.

Is it that hard to imagine that a spell 4 levels higher being capable of doing this one thing? It's not even immortality, it's just "no longer aging".

Worse case scenario, you might see some venerable Monks or Druids wanting this Wish.


However, watch out for any Marut's that might be sent your way.


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## Votan (Jun 14, 2010)

Sigurd said:


> Some PRCs have immortality as a perk too. Assuming you don't want to be a lich or an undead there are other options.




I've generally assumed that the existence of Liches (with the implied cost/pain involved required plus gaining all of the vulnerabilities of Undead) suggests that easy work arounds to dying of old age are rare.

I'd also agree that this could easily trigger another spell effect which would do something different than what you'd like . . .


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## Ryujin (Jun 14, 2010)

In the past I've handled this sort of thing by either using change of race, or templating. As others have said, allowing the character to become an Outsider of some sort is a relatively easy way to deal with it, that seems within the power available to a wish. I wouldn't necessarily limit it to native outsiders. Instead I might let the character barter away the ability to be raised for something tangible, like a form of elemental resistance in addition to the standard Outsider abilities.

A Lich gets something that is pretty close to true immortality, in that it can't be destroyed completely unless the phylactory is also destroyed. This is a very large benefit (and weakness), that I could see requiring much more investment than 'just' a wish.


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## gamerprinter (Jun 14, 2010)

For all the reasons described, I don't think Wish is powerful enough to make one ageless. Consider those PrC where agelessness is a one of its features. Are you saying a Wish is equal to qualifying for a prestige class, as well as taking 5 to 10 levels of a prestig class - that's more like 10 wishes.

Also many undead were once living people who sought a means to become ageless. Why go through the trouble, lethal danger, and get all the world's hatred to become undead to achieve this, if a simple wish could get you there. A lich is supposed to put himself at great risk devising the poison, rituals and phylactery to do this - a wish is too easy an out to get around all that.

All of this proves that Wish is too weak a spell to grant even limited immortality. Otherwise nobody would be going through extreme means to become immortal - it would only take a wish.

GP


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## Ryujin (Jun 14, 2010)

... or it proves that Wish isn't an easily accessible spell.


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## gamerprinter (Jun 14, 2010)

Its a 9th level spell, sure that means 17th level, and expensive to cast. If it were that easy, why spend experience points to achieve 10 levels of a prestige class, just wish it into place... that's too powerful.

I think the real concern is that extending one's life is a far more powerful condition than one might be considering. It normally takes all kinds of extreme means to extend one's life. If you were an 18th level Wizard with Wish spell why cast anything else - since wish seems to be able to do anything.

In my experience a Wish can raise at stat score by 1 place (ie: Str 17 to Str 18) or undo a day's worth of adventuring in order to avoid some terrible incident that occurred. I never grant one or more full levels of experience with a wish. And I don't allow one to become ageless with a Wish - that's way too powerful.

YMMV, but really shouldn't.

GP


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## Ryujin (Jun 14, 2010)

But what GAME advantage does one derive from not aging? IMHO, minimal or none, which means there's no real compelling reason to not allow it.

If it's counter to the fluff in your campaign, well that is then a completely different issue.


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## Psychotic Jim (Jun 14, 2010)

gamerprinter said:


> For all the reasons described, I don't think Wish is powerful enough to make one ageless. Consider those PrC where agelessness is a one of its features. Are you saying a Wish is equal to qualifying for a prestige class, as well as taking 5 to 10 levels of a prestig class - that's more like 10 wishes.
> 
> Also many undead were once living people who sought a means to become ageless. Why go through the trouble, lethal danger, and get all the world's hatred to become undead to achieve this, if a simple wish could get you there. A lich is supposed to put himself at great risk devising the poison, rituals and phylactery to do this - a wish is too easy an out to get around all that.
> 
> ...




Well, for what it's worth, the path to lichdom may represent a shortcut (although the method isn't defined in Pathfinder, IIRC in previous editions you could become a lich several levels earlier than you could cast Wish).  Also, there is a big difference between the types of immortality we're talking about here.  What was mentioned with the Wish spell in this thread was a kind of permanent or simply long-lasting agelessness.  With such an unaging condition, you still have most of the normal mortal frailties aside from this- still having to eat, drink, and go about other normal bodily functions.  Even poison and disease can still strike you down.

With the lich, you are removed from pretty much all of the normal mortal frailties (i.e., most effects requiring a Fort save).  You're even afforded a limited amount of protection from violent death- coming back from your soul in the phylactery.  The lich process also gives you a number of undead abilities (the paralyzing touch, for example).  

With a prestige class, I don't know of too many characters that enlisted in it just for an unaging condition.  Usually that's a perk of studying that particular path, not the sole major benefit. 

Again, I'd handle it with occasionally giving the user of the Wish various complications that they would have to do to maintain and ensure their longevity, and maybe deconstruct the nature of such a condition and incorporate it into the story.  Really, for any of these options you would have different trade-offs, such that hard choices would have to be made all around.

That being said, there could always, from a story and flavor perspective, be several different “paths” to immortality and its different degrees (unaging, undying, etc).  Not all of them have to be equal, and some may very well be "false" paths.


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## gamerprinter (Jun 14, 2010)

If you're the GM then allow it. The request sounds so innocent to you guys. Back in 2e days, casting certaining spells automatically aged the caster, like haste, wish and reincarnation. In 3e they dropped that, so for all intents in purposes over a campaign long story issues of aging never really come up. There must be a reason the player in question making the request did not choose to be an elf or other "more or less ageless" race to be chosen. There must also be a reason (beyond fluff) to want to be ageless. As a DM, I see red flags when someone requests this. They may act all innocent in the request, but there must be a mechanical reason for asking - even if they spend the next 10 levels with their mouth shut about it. Eventually the game breaking aspect to requesting the ageless condition will rear its head - and you'll say as DM, why did I ever allow him to get that.

If it works for you, go for it, but I have a feeling someone is going to regret granting the ageless quality to the requester. Too many red flags with that.

One of the design goals for Pathfinder is to make it less broken then 3e, if you allow something like this, you're breaking the game all over again - why would you want to allow that?

GP

PS: I can think of a dozen broken reasons as to why someone would want to be ageless - there in fact is many mechanical reasons for desiring that condition. And they are the same reasons a lich or vampire wants to be ageless, involving power spells and rituals.


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## Ryujin (Jun 14, 2010)

Perhaps because, as I stated earlier, there is no material benefit to being "ageless"?


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## IronWolf (Jun 14, 2010)

gamerprinter said:


> There must also be a reason (beyond fluff) to want to be ageless. As a DM, I see red flags when someone requests this. They may act all innocent in the request, but there must be a mechanical reason for asking - even if they spend the next 10 levels with their mouth shut about it.




I am not sure there must be a reason beyond fluff for a character to want this.  I know of a case in a game I am playing in that a certain human girlfriend of an elf has some desire to slow aging to a significant degree.  It's more for story and such than some mechanical reason, as likely the campaign will be over before it even comes to play in-game unless the DM does a massive time advance as part of the campaign arc.

Now if it was a request for immortality, then I could see some more red flags, but unaging?  You'd still be susceptible to death by any number of other means.


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## Crothian (Jun 14, 2010)

gamerprinter said:


> PS: I can think of a dozen broken reasons as to why someone would want to be ageless - there in fact is many mechanical reasons for desiring that condition. And they are the same reasons a lich or vampire wants to be ageless, involving power spells and rituals.




I want to see those dozen.


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## Alzrius (Jun 15, 2010)

Ryujin said:


> Perhaps because, as I stated earlier, there is no material benefit to being "ageless"?




Well, there is...but it's pretty technical. Specifically, that you get to collect on the bonuses to your mental ability scores as you go up through the age categories, without collecting the corresponding penalties to your physical scores.

But yeah, I doubt that'd ever come up in-game.


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## Banshee16 (Jun 15, 2010)

frankthedm said:


> Wish is nice and specific on what it can do with a full on *warning* about exceeding those bounds.
> 
> Wish
> [sblock]   *  Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
> ...




The problem is that 3E (and by extension Pathfinder) doesn't really deal with aging or youth magic anymore, unlike previous editions.  The effects which are available that can cause premature aging have been eliminated (the attack of a ghost, the side effect of Haste spells, etc.).  So, they determined to remove effects which could reduce age (potion of longevity, philter of youth).

The Complete Book of Necromancers (from 2nd Ed.) stated that you could use a Wish spell to reduce your physical age by 5 years, or (I think), increase your life span by a factor of x10.  It was a good, end of campaign kind of thing that the party wizard could do.  Afterall, lots of fantasy literature has ancient wizards that are far older than the mundane populace, sustained by powerful magic.  It's a staple of the genre.

In the end, it's the DM's choice.

There are lots of 3E spells from non-WotC sources that can do what you want....Scarred Lands has several, as does the Dragonlance campaign setting.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Jun 15, 2010)

gamerprinter said:


> PS: I can think of a dozen broken reasons as to why someone would want to be ageless - there in fact is many mechanical reasons for desiring that condition. And they are the same reasons a lich or vampire wants to be ageless, involving power spells and rituals.





I'd like to see those dozen reasons...

If you're thinking of this from the perspective that you want to be ageless, because to be ageless, you have to become a vampire, and thus you get all the powers of a vampire......well then, yes, that's a power gamer rationale.

But if you want to be ageless because you want to have the "Highlander" style fighter who's been walking the campaign setting for 400 years, and has forgotten why he has lived so long well....that could make for an interesting story....but it doesn't necessarily make your fighter any more powerful than anyone else's in the game.......*unless* you're going to try and convince the DM that you should get a bunch of special abilities because you've been around.

But it doesn't have to be like that.

Maybe you want to have a wizard who was around 100 years ago, and knew the great grandparents of the other party members personally.....and you don't want to do it by having a venerable age character who has a bunch of ability penalties, and has a chance every year of spontaneously dying of old age.

It's a campaign thing.  Not everything is about gaining phenomenal cosmic power.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Jun 15, 2010)

gamerprinter said:


> All of this proves that Wish is too weak a spell to grant even limited immortality. Otherwise nobody would be going through extreme means to become immortal - it would only take a wish.
> 
> GP




It doesn't prove anything IMO.......all it proves is that the designers didn't decide to spend a lot of time figuring out non-combat uses for a 9th lvl Wish spell.  They figure out the most common effects that most players are likely going to want to use the spell for, and then figure out that anything further is pretty much up to the DM.  Which is pretty much what the spell states.

Liches are one way to do it.  As others have said becoming an Outsider is another option.  Though whether Outsiders are actually ageless is a matter of debate.  I tend to go with "yes", but it's not actually officially written anymore.

Same thing with how many books (Faeries, Complete Guide to Fey, Sidhe Book of Nightmares) talk about Fey being immortal (ie. ageless)....but it's not explicitly said one way or another in the core rules.  But, according to those other sources, there are spells (undetailed) that would allow a PC to become immortal by becoming a Fey.......some would probably rather be a dryad or satyr than a mouldy bag of bones.  Some of these same sources mention however, that there are downsides....the Complete Guide to Fey basically establishes that Fey are a soul in fleshly form.  Kill the Fey and it's gone....no resurrection, nothing.  And it's subject to a bunch of rules as to what it can or can't do.

The spells that do this aren't really detailed, though Faeries has the spell Feyform (7th lvl) that gives a PC the Fey-Born template, and Permanency can be applied to it.  According to that book, since Fey are immortal, and the Fey-Born template grants the Fey Type, the PC becomes defacto ageless.  And, as it's 7th lvl, Wish would be able to duplicate it.

What it comes down to is that the designers of 3E didn't want to spent time worrying about or considering particular issues within the context of the game.  If you look outside the core rules, there are lots of choices.

In Savage Species there are rituals which let a PC change their race.  If Wish lets you duplicate the effects of one of these rituals (again, probably within the spirit of the rules, though not the letter), one could become a Sidhelien from Birthright.....basically, the elves of that setting, who are ageless.  You could live 100,000 years as one of them.

I think the posters in the thread have established that, by the letter, Wish doesn't do what you want.  But that doesn't mean it *shouldn't*, if your DM is willing to let you use it in such a manner.

Banshee


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## gamerprinter (Jun 15, 2010)

*So I was wrong!*

Well that dozen doesn't exist - my head was lost in an edition twist.  The only effects in Pathfinder I can find is standard Aging Effects from Middle Age to Venerable where your Str/Dex/Con go down, and Int/Wis/Chr go up. I suppose if your a martial class you don't ever want to be middle aged or older, but if you're a caster, I doubt if you'd want to be ageless in the first place.

The only other thing it affects is the Curse of Ages curse - age a year, I guess I question how awful that is, if becoming ageless is easily done, age becomes almost meaningless.

Next question is, is ageless, meant you no longer have a maximum lifespan, as per aging rules, or do you appear ageless and die at your normal maximum age, like a high level monk or many other classes.

So I was wrong, not the first time.

GP


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## Banshee16 (Jun 15, 2010)

gamerprinter said:


> Well that dozen doesn't exist - my head was lost in an edition twist.  The only effects in Pathfinder I can find is standard Aging Effects from Middle Age to Venerable where your Str/Dex/Con go down, and Int/Wis/Chr go up. I suppose if your a martial class you don't ever want to be middle aged or older, but if you're a caster, I doubt if you'd want to be ageless in the first place.
> 
> The only other thing it affects is the Curse of Ages curse - age a year, I guess I question how awful that is, if becoming ageless is easily done, age becomes almost meaningless.
> 
> ...




I think the standard ageless thing that is tied to many PrC's states that you stop aging from a physical perspective.....with respect to losing points off your ability scores.  But you still "die when your time is up" and it doesn't say anything about appearing young.

I don't think it's really intended to be that 105 year old Conan the lvl 20 human monk appears to be 28 years old, which is the level he was at when he got that ageless quality.  Even though he appears 28, on January 1 of the following year, he just spontaneously dies of old age.

I think it's more that you're like Mr. Miyagi.  You look old(ish), but you've got exceptional physical conditioning for a 105 year old.....such that, though you still look aged, you can beat the young whippersnappers into shape, and show them to treat their elders with some respect.

There are one or two PrC's where it actually defines that you are actually ageless....as in, you cease to age, and have no maximum lifepsan.  I think the Cloud Anchorite from Frostburn is one of them.

Another official way to become ageless (and pretty resilient) is to undergo the ceremony to become an Elan.  According to the errata, they have no maximum age, IIRC.  Of course, you're still not as resilient as a lich, who has a phylactery that allows him to come back from death to....well...undeath.

Of course, given the choice between still being somewhat killable, yet still warm and breathing, and having mice making nests in my skull cavity, and spiders spinning webs in my eye sockets or rib cage, I think the Elan route is a little less messy.

Banshee


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## gerroditus (Jun 15, 2010)

The thing though is, how many of you have ever had aging effects in 3.+ editions come in to play?  Honestly, I've asked this question before on the WotC Boards and in dozens of responses I had two answer in the affirmative.  Going deeper with those two people I found that out of better than twenty PCs they had between them in 3.+ editions they had each had ONE PC where aging had any effect.  Personally, I run a generations long campaign.  The present game started in 3.0 and was hundreds of sessions long there and has been almost twice as long since, with better than thirty PCs in these games I've had four where it mattered and only one of those who actually had the effects of two aging categories (middle aged and old) while the other three just hit middle aged. We had many other PCs in game years long enough, the where the downtime between scenarios and the like accounted for many years but being elves, dwarves or in one case a gnome, meant that they didn't get to their aging thresholds.

So, what does a human character (or a half orc or another short lived race) really get from the use of the wish in this way?  They get the throwaway aging effect of a elf, dwarf or gnome in almost every case.

As an aside: How does getting a ninth level spell cast for you, or casting it yourself, meaning you are powerful enough to do so, count as " ... becoming ageless is easily done"?


Isshia


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## Ryujin (Jun 15, 2010)

Alzrius said:


> Well, there is...but it's pretty technical. Specifically, that you get to collect on the bonuses to your mental ability scores as you go up through the age categories, without collecting the corresponding penalties to your physical scores.
> 
> But yeah, I doubt that'd ever come up in-game.




I consider that to be a benefit of the ageing process, and so wouldn't give it to an 'ageless' character.


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## Crothian (Jun 15, 2010)

gerroditus said:


> The thing though is, how many of you have ever had aging effects in 3.+ editions come in to play?




Once in a solo campaign that covered lots of time because the character would take years off between adventures.  That was it.


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## roguerouge (Jun 15, 2010)

By the time a wish comes into play in my campaigns, the campaign's almost done. I'd make the acquisition of the wish difficult and memorable, but I wouldn't have a problem with a character wishing to stop aging. It's the druid's 15th level ability with a 25K cost. It also fits closely with the remove afflictions part of the spell.

Of course, if I'm playing in Golarion, I'd say no, because there's a nation BUILT on selling something that halts aging for a year and very powerful people spend a great deal of money on it, which they wouldn't if wishes worked this way.


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## Banshee16 (Jun 15, 2010)

gerroditus said:


> The thing though is, how many of you have ever had aging effects in 3.+ editions come in to play?  Honestly, I've asked this question before on the WotC Boards and in dozens of responses I had two answer in the affirmative.  Going deeper with those two people I found that out of better than twenty PCs they had between them in 3.+ editions they had each had ONE PC where aging had any effect.  Personally, I run a generations long campaign.  The present game started in 3.0 and was hundreds of sessions long there and has been almost twice as long since, with better than thirty PCs in these games I've had four where it mattered and only one of those who actually had the effects of two aging categories (middle aged and old) while the other three just hit middle aged. We had many other PCs in game years long enough, the where the downtime between scenarios and the like accounted for many years but being elves, dwarves or in one case a gnome, meant that they didn't get to their aging thresholds.
> 
> So, what does a human character (or a half orc or another short lived race) really get from the use of the wish in this way?  They get the throwaway aging effect of a elf, dwarf or gnome in almost every case.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure......I've never run or played in a game where Wish was easy to come by.  The XP hit in itself is significant.....but it's just one of those things I don't see happen very often.  *If anything*, Wishes in my campaign have usually come about as a result of genie rings or genie lamps or whatever.  That's just always seemed more interesting than "I cast the Wish spell".

As to the age thing....it *is* a throwaway bonus.  It doesn't make you more powerful or anything like that.  You don't become harder to kill.  It's a roleplaying benefit, pure and simple.  In the grand scheme of a campaign, it's still cool, IMO, but it doesn't actually *do* anything.

Of course, the fact that it's a throwaway benefit has been one of the reasons (I think) that WotC and TSR have been steadily decreasing racial lifespans since 1st Ed.  Elves in 1st Ed. could live 1200-2000 years, depending on breed.  Now we're talking 354-750 years.  Half-elves and dwarves have also had their lifespans shortened though not by such a great degree.  It does create oddities.  You've now got a race that can conceivably spend *sixty percent* of its entire lifespan as a venerable senior citizen, and a staggering 77% of its lifespan as middle aged or older.

Again, most campaigns don't really factor this in.  I've always thought it would be cool to run an episodic campaign taking place over millenia, and paralleling the rise and fall of an empire, for instance.  You could have one or two of the characters who are of long-lived races.  Others could play shorter-lived ones, but come in as experienced members of their race...descendants of PCs from previous episodes, with the long-lived PC providing some kind of narrative continuity.  So, they all begin as lvl 1, and if the episode ends at lvl 5, the humans are retired, you jump the campaign 200 years into the future, and the long-lived PC comes back to organize the descendants of the other PCs to help fight off the returning villain from the first episode, etc.  Maybe they're all lvl 10 now....the ancient PC has been doing his thing, and the youngsters are crack veterans of a war that recently took place.

Fantasy fiction has done this kind of thing before.........whether it's Goblin and One-Eye from the Black Company books, Gandalf, Elminster, Pug/Milamber from Raymond Feist's Riftwar novels, Anomander Rake and the Tiste Andii of the Malazan Books of the Fallen, or others...

Banshee


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## gamerprinter (Jun 15, 2010)

My last 3e campaign everyone was multiclass and everyone was at least a combined 65 levels between two or more classes - not usual for you certainly, but at least 40 years game time occurred over the course of 4 years of play. Those of us who could cast Wish, could so quite a while ago. The Aging Effects had affected all the characters in the party, except the Deva, but then he was a Deva - my character was undead, so he could careless about aging, but most of the others were human.

Is it an issue from everyone, certainly not, but its an issue for some.

GP


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## pawsplay (Jun 15, 2010)

roguerouge said:


> By the time a wish comes into play in my campaigns, the campaign's almost done. I'd make the acquisition of the wish difficult and memorable, but I wouldn't have a problem with a character wishing to stop aging. It's the druid's 15th level ability with a 25K cost. It also fits closely with the remove afflictions part of the spell.
> 
> Of course, if I'm playing in Golarion, I'd say no, because there's a nation BUILT on selling something that halts aging for a year and very powerful people spend a great deal of money on it, which they wouldn't if wishes worked this way.




How expensive is it? Wishes ain't cheap.


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## gerroditus (Jun 15, 2010)

gamerprinter said:


> My last 3e campaign everyone was multiclass and everyone was at least a combined 65 levels between two or more classes - not usual for you certainly, but at least 40 years game time occurred over the course of 4 years of play. Those of us who could cast Wish, could so quite a while ago. The Aging Effects had affected all the characters in the party, except the Deva, but then he was a Deva - my character was undead, so he could careless about aging, but most of the others were human.
> 
> Is it an issue from everyone, certainly not, but its an issue for some.
> 
> GP




Respectfully, D&D was never set up for that level of game play.  It works best, by design, without DM rewriting the rules right left and sideways, at 7th-13th levels and better at lower levels than a higher ones outside of that range, again by the conscious design of the people who made it.

Even so, with THAT many levels and that level of powers how could aging mean much of anything?


Isshia


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## gamerprinter (Jun 15, 2010)

Granted we never played Epic levels until that last long campaign, but I've never stopped a PC until at least 18th level in 30 years of gaming and at no time was there a need to rewrite rules, the rules are there in the books, no rewriting necessary, and that's with 1e, AD&D, AD&D 2e, 3e, 3.5 and now Pathfinder RPG. Where are these rules that need rewritten?

No conscious designer, said, "hey, you're doing it wrong, you're supposed to stop at 13th" - that's not written anywhere in the books, I've never got a notification from the publisher to imply such a thing. I know on lots of forums this kind of thinking is believed by lots of people - but I've never had such a belief or felt that the games were so broken as to not be able to handle that.

Every edition has PC generation tables going to 20th level, is that a mistake, should they have only gotten to 13th and stopped?

You play what you think is normal and leave us guys who actually go by the book (and not rewriting the book) to play whatever the game allows. It allows at least 20th level, and though only available in the 3.0 version, there is an Epic Handbook - no matter how broken you think it is.

Personally once my character is at 20th, I don't really want to keep going, but I am one in a party of six players, so if they want to keep going, I keep going. One of our players is a Psionicist/Monk 43rd/42nd (that's 85 levels) though not my preference, it is for our group.

I'm glad you have an inside on what the designer's really intended, because I've never seen such nonsense in any of the books, nor heard a designer make this official claim on any forum/website. I think someone has been telling you "stories."

GP

PS: except for the fact that we use D20's for initiative, we don't even have "house rules", we go by the book on everything.

PPS: how age affects all these high levels, you ask. All these levels take time to acquire, and if you're nolonger taking age effects, especially for martial classes you are breaking the game. Age effects come into play in our high level game - how would it not?


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## Sigurd (Jun 15, 2010)

I'll happily listen to people talk from their experiences and trust they know what they're talking about.


I think its obvious that with a few exceptions for most of us the storyline stops long before the aging becomes onerous. No one ever talks of the short lifespan of the half orc as a detriment to game play. Many of my games are intense storylines pushed into very short spans of time.

I have wanted immortal characters entirely for flavour. Joe's rich and powerful but I shall drink coffee and tell stories at his funeral etc etc.... I've never had the nerve to really use immortality.

"We leave the castle and return in 40 years, what has happened?"

There are ways of exploiting the ability but most players don't want to give up the web of setting and the issues they are struggling with right now.


I disagree categorically that wish can't do it. Wishing for immortality is too big a storyline. I think you're smarter to wish to become an immortal form you are familiar with that might please  you but a benevolent wish can make you ageless in my world. A treacherous wish might make you regret it - perhaps letting you rot in a body that won't die.

I don't think it is significant what else is done by other people to combat aging. Other solutions don't work as well but there are probably many solutions you have never heard about. Furthermore, this is one person's story - if they wanted to bottle and sell the stuff I'd have a different answer. DM's can do a disservice of enforcing the universal average on exceptional players.

I really don't think this has to affect the game at all. It certainly hasn't affected the games I've been in.

Sigurd


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## jefgorbach (Jun 16, 2010)

AbsolutGrndZer0 said:


> Would it be beyond the scope of Wish to gain unaging? I don't mean like full immortality hard to kill etc, just stop aging.




I'd allow it. It seems reasonable for a Wish spell to bestow a single feat regardless of whether you have the necessary prereq(s). In this instance, you'd gain the psychic Immortality feat - locking you physically at the mid-point of your species's Adult age-bracket, incurring no further age-related changes (pro or con) to your stats. (note: the sentence regarding immunity to poisons and diseases was removed IMC making this feat purely an anti-aging feat.).  

Idea #2: I dont have Dragon Magazine #243 at-hand but if memory serves the crossbreeding mage described therein had a spell for transferring traits/abilities between two creatures - so "simply" capture a suitable unaging creature and transfer its unaging trait. 

Idea #3: Research a short-term spell duplicating the unaging ability/trait of some undying creature in-game then permanently endow yourself with THAT spell.  



Immortality [Psychic]
Prerequisite: Purge Metabolism , Vitality
Benefit: You are immune to poisons and diseases. Furthermore, your power continually purges your body of the harmful physical effects of age. You do not physically age beyond the midpoint of the "adult" age category for your race (Halfway between reaching adulthood and the onset of middle age: for humans, this corresponds to an age of 25 years). If subjected to unnatural aging (And if you survive it), or if you're older when you gain this power, you will return to your natural age (or the midpoint of "adult", whichever is lower) at the rate of one year of age for each day that passes.
-- http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Immortality_(3.5e_Feat)


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## jefgorbach (Jun 16, 2010)

Correction: It was Dragon #237.
Teratism1 is a 3rd level spell allowing for interesting minor skin/color/sound effects, and Teratism2 (5th level) for adding/altering limbs, imbuing upto 2nd level spells, etc however I would think to render the subject Unaging would require Teratism3 since locking the subject to a specific age-bracket would be similar to the complex biological alterations needed to add a head or imbue a 4th level spell effect. 

Teratism III
(Alteration)
Level: 7
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: 1 round
Area of Effect: 1 animal
Saving Throw: None
This is the most powerful version of the teratism spell to date. The traits listed below are only some of the possible transformations that can be induced in an animal. The DM has the final say in what other traits can be bestowed.

* An additional head can be created. This would allow for an additional bite attack, perhaps increased senses that would make surprising the creature near impossible, and so forth.

* Greater special abilities can be imbued. The merlane can grant the teratism a special trait equal to any spell of 4th level or below. Again the merlane must cast the spell within one round of the teratism casting. Thus he can have lizard’s eyes burn with such brilliance equal to that of a fire charm spell, so that hapless victims will approach and be enthralled by the blaze until within reach of the creature’s jaws.

* Speech can be given to an animal, but it will only be as capable of language as its intelligence allows. The usual means of granting greater intelligence is usually through enhance trait, though some have used teratism; the results of the latter are not always to be trusted, as insanity has occurred occasionally.

* Unnatural hide can be given to the beast. The skin can be radically changed to such materials as stone or metal. Some merlanes have even hinted that they have created dangerous raptors with feathers of silk but claws of glass. Such reports have yet to be substantiated. The teratism can benefit by an increase of up to 6 levels to its AC.


Or if you feel this is still insufficient to render the subject Unaging, extend the progression further with a 9th level variant capable of upto 6th level effects or even an 11th level variant for 8th level effects.  

Although the article and its associated spells were geared towards modifying base animals into magical breeds (as explanation for their existence, the same reasoning could be applied towards humanoids/etc)


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## gerroditus (Jun 16, 2010)

gamerprinter said:


> *snip* I'm glad you have an inside on what the designer's really intended,  because I've never seen such nonsense in any of the books, nor heard a  designer make this official claim on any forum/website.





Skip Williams used to talk about it on the WotC Boards, Monte Cook has talked about it on his site.  You know the two primary designers (along with Jonathan Tweet) who wrote the 3.5DMG & the 3.5 PHB? I've never seen Mr Tweet say anything about it one way or the other, but Williams and Cook?  Often.

Look, design and possibility are two very different things.  A car isn't designed to run people over...but they can do a jim-dandy job of it.  Monte Cook used to talk quite a lot about the "sweet spot" in relation to the powers of the various ELs and how they related to what the game was best at...and how this related to the design issues.  Skip Williams has done the same, but from a slightly different perspective.

No one stated that there was a "wrong way" to play D&D, least of all me.  The game works well at any of the non Epic levels, stumbles badly in Epic rules, but stays on it's feet, and is usable at any level of play.  Then again, you can use a spoon to eviscerate someone.  It's not the ideal tool, but...


Isshia


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## gamerprinter (Jun 16, 2010)

I don't disagree that there's truth in that, and that the designers probably have said something to this affect, however, I've played the game at high levels for many years. I never needed to rethink rules, add rules or remove them to make it work - I use it as is. Perhaps I need to have a conversation with Skip and company, to correct their "incorrect" thinking, as D&D works just fine at 20th level.

Epic rules in my opinion, in many ways are broken, especially Epic Spell creation and the like, but our group never needed to cobble together house rules to make it work. Sticking by the book works fairly well and doesn't really feel much different than low level play.

One thing we did, was to keep the saves best on your primary class, rather than combining saves of two classes to create overwhelmingly high saving throws - the like that your opponent needs to roll a 20 or not beat your save. This might be a house rule...

I'm really more thinking that Skip just doesn't know how to play his designed game, since I see his thinking as inherently wrong. D&D works fine at least up to 20th level. It has never stumbled at all in our games. Perhaps he was playing with the wrong group...

GP


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