# Best use of Reach Weapons



## OberonViking (Jul 21, 2011)

I've had a go at using Reach weapons, and can't see the advantage. You attack once at reach, then the opponent takes a 5' step to move in and attack you. You take a 5' step back to attack him, repeat ad nausem.

There has to be a better use of these weapons, beyond adding Combat Reflexes.


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## tylermalan (Jul 21, 2011)

Don't you get an attack of opportunity when the opponent steps in to attack you?  And also, can't you attack through friendly squares?  So you could have a fighter-type in front of you with high AC while you attack from behind him, over his head.


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## Dingo333 (Jul 21, 2011)

while yes, you would get an attack if someone came to attack you, 5ft steps get around that.

the best uses of reach weapons are attacking over a buddy, mounted combat and greater cleaving is a massive horde.

they are good when mounted because you can reach around your mount and hit enemy mounts and their riders, not to mention AoO when the long sword wielding rider comes up too you.

They are good for cleaving because, while you can not hit the 8 squares next to you, you can hit the 12 beyond those, if you are large, you don't hit the 12 around you, but can hit the 54 beyond those


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 21, 2011)

You're looking at it wrong.  To use a reach weapon properly, you have to be defensive.  Because if you just go up to 10 ft from the enemy and hack at him, yeah, next turn he'll just 5 ft step in.  The enemy needs to come to you, so you can get that AoO.

The other thing is, reach weapons alone actually ARE pretty worthless, except maybe for countering big things with long natural reach so you can go offensive on them w/o eating an AoO yourself.  To make reach weapons worthwhile, you need feats.  Combat Reflexes, obviously.  But also Improved/Greater Trip and/or Stand Still.  Something to use that AoO on to not simply hurt them, but to stop their movement in its tracks.  You then become a sort of martial battlefield controller.

I must admit, with the nerfs to the combat maneuver and Stand Still feats, the insane difficulty of winning a combat maneuver check in PF's new system, and the introduction of the Lunge feat (+5 ft reach, but only on your turn, so it helps the longsword guy hit you safely, but does nothing to expand your area of control) and ESPECIALLY the Step Up feat (any warrior can get it at level 1, and if they do, once they close to adjacent with you, you can NEVER safely disengage to get 5 ft away to use your own weapon on them), I think the combat style is significantly less useful in PF.  To the point where I question its validity at all.  I have not made a martial controller w/ reach weapon in PF yet, and have no plans to, even though I make them often in 3E.


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## slwoyach (Jul 21, 2011)

Reach weapons work best in conjunction with spring attack.  You can move, make a single attack and move again.  When your opponent moves in to attack you you get an aoo.  This means you get twice as many attacks as your opponent.  Of course, this is easily countered by anyone with tumbling.

When combined with improved trip it's complete cheese.


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## OberonViking (Jul 21, 2011)

Quick background, the players are all Halflings of a thieve's guild in a city of over two million people. Currently level 6, between 4 and 6 players, they work together well and wipe the floor with CR9 challenges. I'm hoping to give them something quite deadly.
an NPC (Slayer, CR 8, all thses are from the GMG) is out to avenge his cousin's death (by the PCs- when they were raiding his house). He has brought along a Conjurist CR 6 and a Minstrel (Bard) CR 5, and hired some muscle, 8 Guard Officers (ftr 4) CR 3.
The plan is to have a wall of thorns (or guisarmes) for the others to hide behind. I think I'll swap their feats for Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Stand Still, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation.
I'll also bump their Strength to 18, to increase their CMB and attack, and Int to 13 for the Combat Expertise. 
That should keep the fighter and monk busy.


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## OberonViking (Jul 21, 2011)

Quick background, the players are all Halflings of a thieve's guild in a city of over two million people. Currently level 6, between 4 and 6 players, they work together well and wipe the floor with CR9 challenges. I'm hoping to give them something quite deadly.
an NPC (Slayer, CR 8, all thses are from the GMG) is out to avenge his cousin's death (by the PCs- when they were raiding his house). He has brought along a Conjurist CR 6 and a Minstrel (Bard) CR 5, and hired some muscle, 8 Guard Officers (ftr 4) CR 3.
The plan is to have a wall of thorns (or guisarmes) for the others to hide behind. I think I'll swap their feats for Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Stand Still, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation.
I'll also bump their Strength to 18, to increase their CMB and attack, and Int to 13 for the Combat Expertise. 
That should keep the fighter and monk busy.


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## tylermalan (Jul 21, 2011)

Man, most of my groups must have been made of total scrubs, because I can't imagine a level of teamwork that would actually mop the floor with multiple different combat encounters at a CR three levels higher than the average party level.  This is so much so that I'm even scared to put a combat with a CR ONE level higher than my players.


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## OberonViking (Jul 21, 2011)

tylermalan said:


> Man, most of my groups must have been made of total scrubs, because I can't imagine a level of teamwork that would actually mop the floor with multiple different combat encounters at a CR three levels higher than the average party level.  This is so much so that I'm even scared to put a combat with a CR ONE level higher than my players.




Yeah, put it down to generous ability stats. 4d6 - drop the lowest, 7 times - drop the lowest, make sure you have at least one 17. I know one player has an equivalent of 37 point-buy.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 22, 2011)

Why not just USE point buy at that point?

And yeah, no matter how good your players are, that encounters sounds deadly, alright.  As in, "firmly crossing the line between skirting with death but coming alive well into the territory of people will die."  But I don't know your group, maybe that encounter isn't as crazy as it sounds.


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## OberonViking (Jul 22, 2011)

There is likely to be 6 players: Bard, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Monk. I'll scale it back a bit depending on who can't make it. There's even a chance that they will hit level 7 before I get to spring this ambush.

Fortunately for the players the Villain only wants 2 ears as trophies, one for himself and one for his cousins headstone. One of the mercenaries they should be able to grapple one of the halflings, drag them back behind the wall of thorns, and have the Slayer-villain cut his ears off. 
I'll have the Bard heal the player if needed.
It's about teaching the players that actions have consequences, that a quick raid on a house probably shouldn't end in blood. I mentioned that during the encounter.

What's more likely to happen is our Bard and Cleric will take out some of the fighters with Will saves, the monk and fighter will take care of the rest of them, the rogue will sneak up on the spell caster to keep him occupied and our wizard will be busy with the Slayer. 
Perhaps the monk will go after the Slayer and the wizard will work on the mercenaries as well.

I think that there's a good chance that the villains will run off with their tails between their legs - they will not be fighting to the death.


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