# Building a halfling monk



## MarauderX (Jul 2, 2003)

So, I just got my last character killed and want to switch to a non-magic PC with my new character and decided to play a monk, which I have never done before.
I think I have a fair idea of tweaking a 4th level halfling monk to get him to be the best he can be, but thought I would throw it out to the EN world to spot any weaknesses or better approaches.  Here are the vitals with a standard point buy of 32 using 3.0, after applying the halfling bonuses:

Str = 10 
Dex = 18
Con = 14
Int = 10
Wis = 16
Cha = 8

Weapon Finesse; Dodge.  
AC = 18 (+4 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 Size), then Dodge vs chosen enemy
HP = 19-40
Fort = +7 (+4 base, +2 Con, +1 Halfling)
Reflex = +9 (+4 base, +4 Dex, +1 Halfling)
Will = +8 (+4 base, +3 Wis, +1 Halfling)
Unarmed Damage = 1d6

I am not aiming for any Oriental Adventures classes yet (I am expecting the book in the mail any day now) but any that come up would be great.


----------



## Elder-Basilisk (Jul 2, 2003)

From an ancient book of gaming wisdom:

*



			Building an effective halfling monk in 5 Easy steps. . .  Step 1: pick a race other than halfling. . . .
		
Click to expand...


*
Now, that is probably a little bit overstated but not much. You'd have an easier time creating an effective halfling paladin than an effective halfling monk. As Monks, halflings have pretty much everything against them. One of a monk's great advantages is high movement. Halfling qualities nerf this advantage. One of the monk's main weaknesses is low base damage. Halflings' qualities exacerbate this disadvantage. Between their strength penalty and their size damage adjustment, halflings do an average of two points less damage per blow than a human monk with the same base stats. (And considering that monks tend to rely on multiple attacks to deal damage (flurry of blows, etc) and that they have relatively few non-stat/level ways of increasing damage, this is very significant).

My experience with halfling monks in play confirms this suspicion (granted, it's quite limited--one was a necromancer/monk (3rd-5th level) and the other was a rogue/monk (14th level)). The necromancer/monk was pretty consistently weak and had trouble doing much of anything (although he could have avoided being hit if played competently--that is, he could have avoided being hit until he started running into CR 6-8 opponents and Mage Armor+Shield wasn't so impressive anymore). The Rogue/monk was more impressive (and he should be at 14th level) but was only able to do any damage in combat when he managed to get off a stunning blow and follow it up with a full flurry of sneak attacks. In all other situations, it was "So, the sorceror casts an empowered cone of cold for 70 points of damage and follows it up with chain lightning for 50 points of damage, the barbarian power attacks and hits for 60 points of damage, the cleric banishes the demons with holy word and the halfing deals 10 points of damage to the other foe. . . is he ready to be beat down today?"

So, that said, what can you do to make the monk effective?

For a start, don't pretend to be a human or half-orc monk. As a halfling monk, you'll need to take advantage of a lot of synergies to be viable. Multi-classing with rogue would be a good start (either one level or three). It's your favored class and would give you a bunch of skill points which you could use to max out your sneaking skills and learn how to find and disable traps. (You'd want to consider keeping your search and disable device scores up by spending monk skill points cross-class; it's not efficient but since you can't multiclass out of monk and go back to it, it's the only way to retain that ability--alternately, you could rely on potions of vision and taking 20 for searching (there's no way to get around the necessity for ranks in disable device if you want to be competent). A few ranks of Open Lock will be sufficient for most locks if you have time to take 20--and when you don't, you will usually be able to just have the barbarian bust the door down). The rogue levels would also give you sneak attack which would work well with both Stunning Blow, the monk's movement (it's easier to flank that way), and the monk's stealth skills.

For stats, you might very well want to drop your dex to 17 and up your strength to 12. Since you're starting at 4th level, you can use the stat increase to pump your dex back to 18 and the extra point of damage will come in handy.

For feats: With your dex, you'll definitely want Weapon Finesse: Unarmed. You should also consider starting on the dodge, mobility, spring attack line of feats--that would enable you to eventually take advantage of your monkish movement (by 9th level, it will still be decent, even for a halfling) and (possibly) sneak attacks. Alternately, you might do well to take feats like Blindfight, Combat Reflexes (not too useful in itself but good in combination), Hold the Line (get AoOs when charged), expert tactician (hit your foes again every time you stun them), Hamstring, etc.

If you're using 3.5 monk rules, you will want Stunning Fist instead of Improved Grapple (halflings tend to lose grapples), and Combat Reflexes instead of Improved Trip (low strength halflings tend to lose trip rolls too).

Weapons: Since 3.5 makes weapon finesse apply to all finessable weapons and your unarmed damage will be low anyway, you should consider at least starting out wielding halfling versions of monk weapons. (If your DM doesn't let you do stunning blows while wielding 2 monk weapons, just wield one). They'd deal the same damage as your unarmed strikes and you could get another +1 to hit from masterwork--and possibly even +1 damage as well if you bought a +1 weapon.

So, my recommendation would be to start off as either:

Rog 1/Mnk 3
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Blindfight  or Dodge and Weapon Finesse

or

Rog 3/Monk 1
Stats and feats as above

or even

Rog 4 (will advance in Monk from here on out)
Stats and feats as above.


----------



## Camarath (Jul 2, 2003)

If your group is changing to 3.5 this will help your chatacter. My suggestion use disarm as much as you can. For many opponents being disarmed is almost the same as being killed. Of the OA prestige classes I recomend the Shintao Monk. You might also consider the feat Grappling Block from OA which allows you a disarm attempt one per round when you would other wise be hit with a weapon. If you wish to multiclass Psychic Warrior is a fun class that synergies reather nicely with the Monk. I recomend you go for a untouchable reactive type monk. Many of the OA feats go well with this type of character. Spring attack can be useful if combined with disarm. If you play a 3.5 monk your speed will only be 10ft less than a human monk reather than 2/3 the speed of a human monk.


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 2, 2003)

Camarath said:
			
		

> * I recomend you go for a untouchable reactive type monk.  *




That's the type I am going for, and was tempted to drive up the Dex a point or so higher to get the extra bonuses to hit, AC and reflex to deflect arrows.  We are staying with 3.0 until further notice, although I wish we were going to 3.5.  

Even at 30' per round, he will be one of the fastest in the party.  I was thinking of using that speed & AC along with a maxed out tumble to be a wizard-killer as well as flank easily.  Presently there is a rogue in the party, so I want to avoid going that route.

With the low magic campaign I am in a monk would work out wonderfully.  But as everyone still has had decent BAB I want to make his AC higher to match the lower HP per level.  Granted, it will go up, but it takes some levels...and right now he doesn't have them.  

So essentially what I am understanding is peeling off the halfling part would give an AC=16, BAB drops from +8 to +6, Reflex drops 2 and the others drop 1, and the trade off is better speed and a raised damage die.   This monk isn't going to be the best at melee with our group, but should be able to rip apart any caster or archer once he gets to them.


----------



## Camarath (Jul 2, 2003)

If you wanted a more direct type monk I would suggest you go with the Half-Oger and grappling. As it is you should really take advantage of the feats in OA they can be nearly indispensable to the type of character you are building. My recomendations are Defensive Throw, Grppling Block, Freezing The Lifeblood and Karmic Strike. I also suggest you take advantage of defensive fight and the bonus from a high Tumble rank as well as Expertise. It might be hard to get enough feats as a monk. Shintao Monk can help with this a great deal is you plan right.


----------



## Elder-Basilisk (Jul 2, 2003)

MarauderX said:
			
		

> *That's the type I am going for, and was tempted to drive up the Dex a point or so higher to get the extra bonuses to hit, AC and reflex to deflect arrows.  We are staying with 3.0 until further notice, although I wish we were going to 3.5.
> 
> Even at 30' per round, he will be one of the fastest in the party.  I was thinking of using that speed & AC along with a maxed out tumble to be a wizard-killer as well as flank easily.  Presently there is a rogue in the party, so I want to avoid going that route. *




Here's the difficulty with this route. Your AC is NOT good. Until someone casts mage armor on you, it's "don't power attack me" not "you won't hit me." And even after you get mage armor cast, your enemies will still hit you on halfway decent rolls.

Your monk is AC 18/19 (dodge) or 22/23 with mage armor. A fighter with fullplate, a large shield, a 12 dex, and the dodge feat is AC 21/22 (dodge). If he has +1 fullplate and a +1 shield (not hard to come by at 4th level), that's AC 22/23 or 23/24. And he's hardly unhittable.

At 4th level, standard opponents are things like:
-Human fighter Str 16, weapon focus, mwk weapon: +9 to hit. (he needs a 9 to hit you if you're not dodging him, a 10 if you are and a 14 if you've got mage armor and are dodging him)
-Orc barbarian 4 Str 18, weapon focus, mwk weapon, rage: +12 to hit--he needs a 6 to hit you (worst case for you) or an 11 to hit you (best case for you).
-Troll (CR 5) +9/+9/+4. You probably won't be rended, but he'll hit you nearly every round--mage armored or not.
-Ogre (CR 2) +9 to hit IIRC. Without mage armor, he will hit you quite regularly. And, even with Mage Armor, he doesn't need to roll particularly well to hit you.

Maybe you're in a campaign where you're facing nothing but mooks with +4 attack bonusses, but it won't last. In two levels, you will almost certainly be facing creatures like those I outlined. And your monk's AC will not impress any of them. And, contrary to your assertion, your AC isn't likely to go much of anywhere. You can get a ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, and that's about it. Bracers of armor won't be better than Mage Armor for quite a while and rings of Force Shield are rather expensive too. By the time you can afford to get an AC above 26, your opponents will typically have attack bonusses in the neighborhood of +14-+20 so you won't really have improved your situation much.

[b







> With the low magic campaign I am in a monk would work out wonderfully.  But as everyone still has had decent BAB I want to make his AC higher to match the lower HP per level.  Granted, it will go up, but it takes some levels...and right now he doesn't have them.
> 
> So essentially what I am understanding is peeling off the halfling part would give an AC=16, BAB drops from +8 to +6, Reflex drops 2 and the others drop 1, and the trade off is better speed and a raised damage die.   This monk isn't going to be the best at melee with our group, but should be able to rip apart any caster or archer once he gets to them. [/B]




I'm not so sure he'll be ripping apart anyone in melee--even wizards and archers. Your attacks will deal 1d6 damage unmodified. Now, your standard 3.0e wizard has an AC of 16-23 (mage armor, and dex plus possibly shield). So, if you attack once, you have a 65-30% chance of dealing 1d6 damage to him and if you flurry, it'll be a two 55-20% chances of dealing 1d6 damage. At best, that's an average of 2.275 damage/round with one attack and 3.8 damage/round with a flurry. At that rate, a third level wizard (hp 16-19) will last 5 rounds, 5' stepping away from you and casting his spells. About the only thing he has to worry about is your stunning fist. And if he has shield up, he doesn't really even need to worry about that (because it will probably miss).

The archer is in a better situation. (War 3; hp 21, AC 18 (Chain mail+buckler+dex), Point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot; Atk +7 (1d8+2 mwk mty longbow with mwk arrows) or +6 (1d8+2 mwk longsword). Let's say you tumble up to him and start flurrying away. He'll last 7 round. Now, if he draws his longsword and starts attacking you, he'll deal 20.475 points of damage before he goes down (assuming no mage armor and that he's your dodge target; if you have mage armor, you'll take an average of 11.375 damage). You win the fight of course, but it's hardly decisive. (And that's against a CR 2 NPC class archer with elite array stats--if you are put up against a 4th level (or higher) PC class archer with PC-level stats, your halfling monk is probably going down). Alternately, the archer could choose to ignore you and keep shooting your friends. 5' stepping away from the halfling and killing your friends so his friends can kill you for him is probably his best strategy.

If you want to be the terror of the enemy's rear lines, you should run a half-orc monk with an 18 strength (str 18, dex 14, con 14, int 8, wis 16, cha 6 is doable under 32 point buy) or a 16 strength human monk. Your attack bonus will be slightly lower and your AC will be significantly lower (but you weren't going to be close to unhittable anyway) but you'll deal a LOT more damage and will actually be able to take down the wizard before he runs out of spells or take out the archer before the combat is over.

Without sneak attacks, the halfling monk doesn't deal enough damage for the bad guys to worry much about whether or not he hits them.


----------



## Camarath (Jul 2, 2003)

If your DM allows 3rd party feats I would suggest the Unarmored Defense Proficiency feats from AEG's Swashbuckling Adventured. There are three feats each wiith an increasing AC bonus based on level.


----------



## Camarath (Jul 2, 2003)

Inertial Armor is a good way to boost your AC if you multiclass into Psychic Warrior. It is important to remember that when you disarm someone unarmed you end up holding the weapon if you succeed and many enemies can only do 1d3 subdual damage with an attack that provokes an AoO when unarmed. Defensive Fighting and Expertise can boost your AC +6 at lv 4 but you suffer a -7 to attack, sometimes it is worth it.


----------



## spunky_mutters (Jul 3, 2003)

I play a halfling monk with better stats than that, and I usually end up unconscious. I've been asked a few times by other party members just what the point of my character is. I would probably be switching focus to rogue just to be useful at something, but I'm moving into the DM chair in a month or so, and will just retire gracefully if I don't die before then.


----------



## Hawkeye (Jul 3, 2003)

I played a Halfling Fighter/Monk at 8th or 9th level.  He was a Stoutheart Halfling, so he got the extra feat at 1st level.  I had weapon finesse, focus and specialization.  My AC was decent.  In the final encounter in Nightfang spire, the NPC NEVER did any damage to me by melee or spell.  We started out the fight with our Paladin and Wizard dying from a spell.  It was up to me and the other monk to take the fight to our opponent.  It was a close fight, but he went down.  If you are going to play a halfling monk, you may want to multi-class with a fighter.  It worked for me.


----------



## Technik4 (Jul 3, 2003)

I would suggest Elven instead of Halfling. It still keeps with the style you are going for (dex over strength) but an elf may offer better advantages for this type of character. 

Your strength? As EB pointed out, merely gaining magic items and keeping your dex high won't make you unhittable (or even only hittable on a 18-20). For your level, you WILL be hit, you have to play smart enough for you to be the guy the enemy ignores, until you screw him over. This is not hard to do, as you are an unarmored, mostly bare thin humanoid, hardly what most monsters/npcs would consider threatening.

Your advantage is your saves. Always pump your saves, you will be the most reliable one in the party, and eventually NPCs may even avoid casting singe-target spells against you because they know (at that point) that the crazy bare-chested no-weapon-wielding guys are the ones who do not get held, etc.

AC is your other advantage, not in straight up scores, but by using tactics. Fight defensively, dont be afraid to take a full-out defense (which may still move you as far as the fighter in full-plate), and tumble for all your heart is worth. Use mobility, get in AND out of combat, then get back IN. Irritate monsters and intelligent opponents by being there one second, gone the next. Use ready actions and delay actions to maximize trying to stun your enemies. If youre playing 3.0e and you have access to them, buy some ki straps.

Once again, be careful of your role. Many high-movement rogues and monks make the mistake of thinking that due to their high movement they should rush into battle. Totally wrong (imo). In fact, most of the time try and use your sneaking skills to not even be with the main group. Be off to the side with the rogue, or play safety and hang in the back, after all you can get to the front if necessary.

Appeal to your group to let you play the medic, meaning taking quite a few of the potions. You should be the go-to guy if someone falls, you can get in, avoid AoOs, and heal someone faster than anyone else (probably). Those healing potions are also going to save your skin on multiple occasions.

Use potions almost to the point of recklessness. Potions are cheap, and they improve you quite a bit. Appeal for buff spells for yourself, and always make yourself useful. The rogue will be your best friend as you will go sneaking and flanking together, but you can build friendships with mages (by readying actions to stun enemy mages, or grapple them) and other members of the party.

You will always outshine the party against an incorpereal foe (who uses touch AC as its basis for attacks), make sure to taunt them so you are the target.

Finally, a quick sum up:

Halfling vs Elf

-Same Dex
-Similar penalties (Str and Con)
-Elf is better at grappling and faster
-Halfling is better at sneaking (+4 racial hide) and slightly better saves, attacks and AC (+1 to all better than elf)
-Elf has arguably better saving throw bonus, and definitely better proficiencies (make use of bows! they aren't restricted and it is sort-of an eastern tradition)
-Elf has better vision (which in turn, helps sneaking and just in general).
-Halfling has more skill bonuses, and a bonus to thrown weapons (applies to shuriken)
-Elf has better unarmed damage

Once again, I reccomend elf.

Technik


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 3, 2003)

Elder-Basilisk:  Very good points, and thanks for the numbers.  At AC=18 I would have the best in the party, but as you pointed out it doesn't mean it's going to prevent me from getting hit.  With the low amount of damage he would do, I imaginee it would take a while to carry on a fight, but would be able to survive much longer, although you pointed out that may not be the case in a tough fight.  

Camarath:  OA didn't arrive today  and I can't wait for it to get here to see how I can apply these good feats to my PC.  

spunky_mutters & Hawkeye:  Thanks for the input, I was hoping there were a few out there that could share from actual experience.  I am not sure about which race to go with now, although I did have a cool story in the works for a halfling.

Now it's back to the drawing board...


----------



## spunky_mutters (Jul 3, 2003)

Don't get me wrong, I like my halfling monk. I've got the best AC in the party, and once you I got weapon finesse I could actually hit things. My saves are the best, and I've even got the best magic weapons in the party. The problem is that I can't compete in combat (I don't have the hit points, the damage dealing ability, or the to-hit), I don't have good out of combat skills (except for hide and move silently), and I don't have much else I can do except keep myself alive (assuming I don't get hit too badly). I always feel like he will grow into something special, but he never really feels like he's there. Half the time I just tumble into position so my allies can flank.


----------



## Camarath (Jul 3, 2003)

If your looking for a powerful monk build I suggest you play as Half-Ogre (LA+1). The most powerful monk I have ever played was a Half-Oger with Earths Embrace, Choke Hold, Improved Grapple(OA), and Improved Grapple(UE). On a 32 point buy you could get a Str 24 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 8. The Half-Ogre is Large and has a Natural Armor of +4. OA lets you trade out Stunning Attack and Deflect Arrows for feats so you could have all 4 feats when you start you character. You would have grapple bonus of +17.


----------



## Arc (Jul 3, 2003)

I've always wondered why the monk class used size as a determinant in damage dealt, speed etc. The minor benifits (+ 1 or 2 to AC and attack) of small size are a hit that is static, meaning that as a character increases in level, those benifits soon become marginalized. However, for monks, the negatives (low speed and damage) scale upwards, meaning that small feel their negatives scale *upwards* as they level. This goes against the basic balance of the system, and basically makes small monks impossible to play as effectively as medium or large monks. Maybe that's what the designers were aiming for.

Personally, I always house rule that size is irrelevant when dealing with monk unarmed damage and speed. All the martial arts films I've seen show the hunched over, tiny old man dealing out *far* more whoop-ass than the normal sized martial artists.

It also prevents min/maxing by creating a giant that does 2x more damage than a human monk of his level, simply because of his size.


----------



## Darklone (Jul 3, 2003)

If I were you, I'd wait a few more days and build a 3.5 monk? They changed a lot!


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 3, 2003)

Darklone said:
			
		

> *If I were you, I'd wait a few more days and build a 3.5 monk? They changed a lot! *



Yeah, well, unfortunately we won't be adopting 3.5 until the whole thing is approved by our DM, which hasn't been a problem until now.  

Technik4:  Thanks for the suggestion, the elven monk is a nice 1/2 way point between halfling and human, and remains a viable choice with the medium damage and speed.  

spunky_mutters:  I feel the same about damage dealt out, and that why I was thinking the character would be tumbling behind the lines to deal with the spell tossers instead of going toe-to-toe with any fighter types on the front lines.  His secondary job will be to flank, of course.

Camarath:  We aren't allowed to play anything beyond the normal races, which is also unfortunate, but nice to see that the larger you go the more you can keep up with the fighters.  

Arc:  I agree with you wholeheartedly, but unfortunately the rules are the rules in our campaign.  I will be thinking about taking weapon finesse and power attack to at least deal some damage per blow if I keep the halfling 'template'.  

I worked up a Half-Orc monk with maxed out Str (as Elder Basilisk had built above) to take a look at AC, saves and HP.  The drawbacks are huge to me; take a look at the comparison below.  One thing I started to realize is that the monk has 4 stats that are all vitally important to having a guy that can, well, be a good monk - Str (to grapple, add to damage or BAB, trip), Dex (AC, finesse attack, reflex), Con (need the extra HP to add to d8/level, fort save), and Wis (AC, DC bonuses for special attacks).  Spreading out the 32 points over these 4 seems more like an art of sacrificing certain aspects instead of maxing out the PC for the most benefits.  

Keep in mind, this is a 4th level monk at point buy=32, and assuming my numbers are correct.

_______Halfling____Half Orc
Str----------12-------------18
Dex---------18-------------12
Con --------12-------------12
Int ---------10-------------10
Wis---------16-------------16
Cha---------8---------------6
AC----------18-------------14
HP--------15-36---------15-36   (Average ~24) 
Fort--------+6-------------+5
Reflex------+9-------------+5
Will----------+8-------------+7
BAB melee--+9*----------+7**
BAB ranged--+8-----------+4
Damage----1d6+1**----1d8+5**  
Feats---Weapon finesse-----Power attack
-----------Power attack-----------Cleave

* with weapon finesse added 
** power attack bonuses not included

I dunno... same hit points, one has a much better AC, who do you think will last longer?

edit: prettied it up good enough to read


----------



## Rel (Jul 3, 2003)

My one suggestion would be this:  Going back to an earlier suggestion by E-B about taking one level of Rogue, if you do that, you and the "real" Rogue in the party will become best friends.  He'll want somebody to help him team up with to Flank anyway and your mobility will be excellent for that.

For you, the payoff is when you get to Tumble into Flank and do a Flurry.  Then your attacks will do 2d6+1 each instead of 1d6+1.

Also, the skillpoints from the level of Rogue (especially if you take it at 1st level) will help add some interesting diversity to the character.  And the story behind it is very plausable:  _Born on the mean streets, I had to learn to take care of myself and I became the typical Halfling Rogue.  But one day I tried to pickpocket Mr. Miagi.  Rather than send me to the local magistrate, he insisted that my pennance be coming to be educated at the monastery..._


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 3, 2003)

Rel said:
			
		

> *My one suggestion would be this:  Going back to an earlier suggestion by E-B about taking one level of Rogue, if you do that, you and the "real" Rogue in the party will become best friends.  He'll want somebody to help him team up with to Flank anyway and your mobility will be excellent for that.
> 
> For you, the payoff is when you get to Tumble into Flank and do a Flurry.  Then your attacks will do 2d6+1 each instead of 1d6+1.
> 
> Also, the skillpoints from the level of Rogue (especially if you take it at 1st level) will help add some interesting diversity to the character.  And the story behind it is very plausable:  Born on the mean streets, I had to learn to take care of myself and I became the typical Halfling Rogue.  But one day I tried to pickpocket Mr. Miagi.  Rather than send me to the local magistrate, he insisted that my pennance be coming to be educated at the monastery... *




The drawback to taking a level in rogue is dropping the damage die back to 1d4.  Perhaps I shouldn't worry about it as it will come right back with one more level in monk.  Another bonus is being able to do +1d6 sneak attack damage.  Must weigh the numbers...


----------



## Rel (Jul 3, 2003)

MarauderX said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The drawback to taking a level in rogue is dropping the damage die back to 1d4.  Perhaps I shouldn't worry about it as it will come right back with one more level in monk.  Another bonus is being able to do +1d6 sneak attack damage.  Must weigh the numbers... *




I'm a bit of a skill junky myself, so I'd consider it worth the tradeoff to wait an extra level for the (on average) 1 point of damage.  Also consider the AC implications if you max out Tumble.  Not only are you not suffering too many AoO's for movement, but the AC bonus for Fighting Defensively goes up to +3 and Total Defense goes up to +6.

My Halfling Rogue I'm currently playing has been known to use those techniques against some big baddies (ones that I couldn't sneak attack anyway, like a giant zombie snake) to buy time for the heavy hitters to take them down.

With your great Dex and Wis, combined with Small size, you would make a perfect companion for the Rogue on scouting missions too.  Your extra skill points put into Hiding and Move Silently as well as Spot and Listen will mean that you and the Rogue can work well together stealthily.  If you get caught or if you discover a lone adversary, you are the perfect duo to get off Sneak Attacks on the Surprise Round (possibly from range) and then win initiative (high Dex coming into play again) and execute another round of Sneak Attacks.  If there's anybody still standing after that, you guys can always flank them.


----------



## Darklone (Jul 3, 2003)

If you do that... take at least 3 levels rogue. Otherwise your already barely sufficient BAB will suffer too much.

Take Expert Tactician at all costs. Stunning fist success will give you a free Sneak attack with it.


----------



## MadScientist (Jul 3, 2003)

Arc said:
			
		

> *I've always wondered why the monk class used size as a determinant in damage dealt, speed etc.*



The decrease in unarmed damage mirrors the fact that small sized characters must use weapons that are one-size category smaller than medium sized characters. The decrease in weapon size typically reduces the damage die by one (i.e. longsword does d8 damage, shortsword does d6). So small sized fighters, rangers and barbs really suffer a similar penalty, just in a less transparent way.

Considering this, from a balance perspective, you almost have to reduce the unarmed damage of small monks. (admitedly I think the monk class itself is a little weak combat wise so unless you have multiple monks in the same party it's probably not a problem to give small monks the higher unarmed damage...) I would also like to point out that while halfling monks will dish out less damage and move a little slower than their larger counterparts they get a lot of other good abilities that compliment the monk well: The athletic skill bonuses, +1 saves, +4 hide etc.


----------



## Mike Sullivan (Jul 3, 2003)

MarauderX said:
			
		

> *_______Halfling____Half Orc
> Str----------12-------------18
> Dex---------18-------------12
> Con --------12-------------12
> ...




Doesn't Power Attack require a 13 str?


----------



## wolfen (Jul 3, 2003)

I have had a fun idea for a halfling monk.  I am not playing him because most of my group is full of powergamer types.

Here's the scoop.

I start with a dart-wielding Rogue (level 1) with Point Blank Shot.  Then make him a monk.   Take Rapid Shot (lvl3) and precise shot (lvl6).  Apply your strength bonus to damage from darts, and a high dex bonus to attacks to hit (+1 for being halfling/+1 for size).  

In this setup, at 3rd level you are able to keep away from danger and still make a difference.  A reasonable monk can usually manage to get to an enemy flank.  Then (from 20 feet away) you can hurl darts (+7/+5 to hit) doing (1d6+1d4+STR+1).  That's averaging something like 8pts per dart, 2 darts per round.  That's decent for a halfling monk.  When you throw in magic darts (like glitterdust darts) he gets downright useful. 

So why is he a monk?  If you take the long-term view of your character, (and you have to with a halfling monk), you can imagine a character that uses darts effectively in the middle of a fray, trips fighters, grapples mages, etc.  He's a more fluid character that easily finds cover behind the larger combatants and tumbles out of reach -- but darts you a couple times on his way to the mage.

Typically people argue against this kind of character.  "My half-elf archer is better at ranged and melee!  Why bother?"  Well, that's true if he gets to pick his situation.  In my experience, most archers are only shooting freely for a couple rounds max, then they're forced into melee.  It's one or the other.

By contrast, a monk with good throwing-weapon skills can weave in and out of the melee area with greater effect.   A monk relying only on melee can't do anything to you from 20 feet away, so his sphere of influence is much smaller by comparison.  A fighter in melee with his favorite sword or hammer is in the same situation. A monk, needing no weapon, has a hand free for throwin'!  He's like the gremlin among the enemy making things easier for you.  

Just an idea i havent fully tested.

wolfen


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 3, 2003)

Mike Sullivan said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Doesn't Power Attack require a 13 str? *




D'oh!

Thanks for catching that, it would have been embarrassing to have our DM smack me down.   I do like the idea of having the power attack to add on to the weak damage, and with weapon finesse I wouldn't need to have high Str to hit somebody.  With that whole 'system' Str wouldn't be as much a priority with the exception of grappling and tripping.  In the PHB Con isn't a major constituant, but I feel it is necessary for survival with only d8 HP, and have trouble surrendering points to pump up Str.  The compromising struggle continues!

MadScientist:  I agree with what you are saying.  The old monk-ish yoda type hobbling around with a cane is probably 15+ levels, and could teach a half-orc all sorts of new things about pain.


----------



## Darklone (Jul 3, 2003)

wolfen said:
			
		

> *In this setup, at 3rd level you are able to keep away from danger and still make a difference.  A reasonable monk can usually manage to get to an enemy flank.  Then (from 20 feet away) you can hurl darts (+7/+5 to hit) doing (1d6+1d4+STR+1).  That's averaging something like 8pts per dart, 2 darts per round.  That's decent for a halfling monk.  When you throw in magic darts (like glitterdust darts) he gets downright useful.  *




You can't flank with ranged attacks.

MarauderX: Power Attack isn't really worth it for a monk char... you'll have problems enough to hit at all.

OTOH: If you hit bad enough to need real high numbers to hit anyways, then many attacks and full Power Attack are the way to go.


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 3, 2003)

Darklone said:
			
		

> *
> 
> MarauderX: Power Attack isn't really worth it for a monk char... you'll have problems enough to hit at all.
> *




Hm... with a +9 at 4th is respectable with our group, and if our opponents are easier to hit than normal then applying the attack bonuses to damage instead could take them down much more quickly.  Perhaps I need to clarify my reasoning of this.  
For example, with an opponent AC=15, he could choose to attack in a couple of ways.  1st, he could ignore the power attack and just hope to hit the guy only needing a 6 to hit and doing 1d6+Str.  This attack would be good for trying to tag someone to prevent a spell, or to use stunning fist.  He could use flurry of blows instead, needing an 8 to hit each time and doing 1d6x2 damage.  Or he could apply +2 to the damage of each blow and need a 10 to hit.  Or he could just try to clobber the guy with one punch, using all +9 on the damage in addition to the d6, but needing a 15 to hit him.  The choices are pretty good, and really offsets the lessened amount of damage he will do for being small.  

I am thinking about halfling vs. elf vs. human, as the abilities and modifiers start to sway more towards mediocre going from one to the other but some of the trade-offs may be worth it.


----------



## Sejs (Jul 3, 2003)

If you can, play a Strongheart Halfling (trades the +1 racial bonus to all saves for a bonus feat at level 1) - that subtype seems more apt to produce monks, and really as a monk your saves will be good all around, anyway.

There's an interesting sidebar in the FRCS about different monastic orders, and has the interesting idea that if you belong to a certain monastic order, you can multiclass without the normal cannot-be-a-monk-again penalties if you MC to certain classes that are inline with the ideals of the order.  Of note for your character would be the Hin Fist, which is a halfling martial arts style.  Monks of the Hin Fist can multiclass freely as Fighters, Rogues, and Paladins (usually of Yondalla).  This would let you get a couple rogue levels later on without having to give up monking forevermore.

Given the halfling's natural proclivities - don't focus on doing damage.  Be the utility monk.  Weapon Finesse is good.  Pain Touch would be very handy - the more you can get out of your stunning fists the better.  As has been pointed out - get Expert Tactician.  Particularly if you can get in a level of rogue.  Jade and Steel (from Avalance Press) also has the Grappling Finesse feat which lets you use your dex instead of your str for all grapple and trip attempts.  If you're making a grappling monk (not suggested due to small size... but it's your character, heh) - it would help.  Feats like Unbalancing Strike, Freezing the Lifeblood and Falling Star Strike are good, because they operate off your Wis mod.. but as you've said above.. OA stuff may not be available.


----------



## Rel (Jul 3, 2003)

MarauderX said:
			
		

> *Or he could just try to clobber the guy with one punch, using all +9 on the damage in addition to the d6, but needing a 15 to hit him.   *




Remember that you can only Power Attack up to your BAB, in case that sways your opinion on the feat.


----------



## Mike Sullivan (Jul 3, 2003)

MarauderX said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hm... with a +9 at 4th is respectable with our group, and if our opponents are easier to hit than normal then applying the attack bonuses to damage instead could take them down much more quickly.*




I'm unclear how you're getting +9, by the way.  Isn't it:

+3 (BAB), +4 (Dex), +1 (Size) = +8?

Or did I leave something out?



> *Perhaps I need to clarify my reasoning of this.
> For example, with an opponent AC=15, he could choose to attack in a couple of ways.  1st, he could ignore the power attack and just hope to hit the guy only needing a 6 to hit and doing 1d6+Str.  This attack would be good for trying to tag someone to prevent a spell, or to use stunning fist.  He could use flurry of blows instead, needing an 8 to hit each time and doing 1d6x2 damage.  Or he could apply +2 to the damage of each blow and need a 10 to hit.  Or he could just try to clobber the guy with one punch, using all +9 on the damage in addition to the d6, but needing a 15 to hit him.  The choices are pretty good, and really offsets the lessened amount of damage he will do for being small.*




You can only PA for an amount equal to your _Base_ Attack Bonus.  Thus, a Monk 4 will only be able to take a maximum of -3 to hit for +3 to damage.

Here's the breakdown for your character above (assuming a 13 str so he can get PA, and assuming I'm wrong about his modified attack bonus, and it really is +9, and assuming he's fighting an AC 15 opponent):

Attacks once, no flurry, no PA:


Hits on a 6+, 1d6+1 damage, 20/x2 crit.

4.5 * .75 * 1.05 = 3.54375 damage expected

Attacks with flurry, no PA:


Hits on an 8+, 8+, 1d6+1 damage, 20/x2 crit.

4.5 * .65 * 1.05 * 2 = 6.1425 damage expected

Attacks once with max (3) PA, no flurry:


Hits on a 9+, 1d6+4 damage, 20/x2 crit.

7.5 * .60 * 1.05 = 4.725 damage expected

Attacks with flurry, max (3) PA:


Hits on an 11+, 11+, 1d6+4 damage, 20/x2 crit.

7.5 * .5 * 1.05 * 2 = 7.875 damage expected

Power Attack is good for people with low base damages.


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 3, 2003)

Rel said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Remember that you can only Power Attack up to your BAB, in case that sways your opinion on the feat. *




You're right... don't have the PHB in front of me, but that leads me not to take it.  

Sejs:  I like the sound of the Grappling Finesse feat and will have to run it by our DM for approval before using it, but that feat will allow me to almost completely ignore Str for most of the things I want to do (except damage, of course).  I wasn't aiming to make a grappling monk, but it would prevent casters from stepping 5' and casting something nasty.  With a halfling there is already a -1 against the PC so it was never considered a major goal to be good at wrestling.


----------



## wolfen (Jul 3, 2003)

Darklone said:
			
		

> *
> You can't flank with ranged attacks.
> *




You can sneak attack with ranged attacks up to 30 feet.


----------



## Sejs (Jul 3, 2003)

> You can sneak attack with ranged attacks up to 30 feet.




Yes, you can - if they're denied their dex bonus to ac, or flanked by the rogue.  Ranged weapons do not threaten an area, therefor you can't flank the opponent with them.  If you had another melee weapon in hand (or .. of hand, in the case of someone with imp unarmed strike) you would threaten around you as normal, but only to the normal reach of that weapon.  Certainly not out to 30 feet away.


----------



## wolfen (Jul 4, 2003)

Sejs said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yes, you can - if they're denied their dex bonus to ac, or flanked by the rogue.  *




I don't understand the significance of the hairs you are splitting.  If I get through (or curl around) the enemies' front lines and see their backs, I'm getting a sneak attack. Whether it's a ranged attack within 30 ft, or melee, someone's gettin' an extra d6.

My point, ultimately, was that a ranged sneak attack is a viable option for a halfling rogue/monk in the above situation.  If you play the character consistently, you can exploit this option.  The sneak attack is not the be-all end-all, I know, but if you fight every battle trying to use it, and if you have a DM that plays fair, you probably will get rewarded for the trouble.


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 4, 2003)

I finally got the OA book in the mail today and I flipped straight to the feats section and started reading.  
Grappling Block.  Coolest Feat Ever.  Why?  Check it out...
"Once per round when you would normally be hit by a melee weapon, you may make a special disarm attempt against your opponent."  "You make an opposed attack roll...against the attack roll that hit you." and goes on to say that instead of your opponent hitting you, you disarm him.  Not sure why that excites me so much, but... wow.  

After all of the discussion above, it may be worthwhile to go with human to get the extra feat and be able to reach Grappling Block by 6th level.  Stats would be along the lines of Str=14, Dex=14, Con=12, Int=14, Wis=16, Cha=8.  Prereqs for the feat are Expertise (would help with the AC I have been to concerned with), Improved Disarm, and Combat Reflexes.  

Then again, perhaps I am overreacting and should go with 'Fists of Iron' (+d4 for damage) along with Weapon Finesse and stick with the halfling.


----------



## MadScientist (Jul 4, 2003)

You can not flank with a ranged weapon. Therefore you will never get a ranged sneak attack on someone because you flank them.

You can still sneak attack with a ranged weapon if you are within 30 ft AND the target doesn't get their dex bonus to AC for some reason. This can happen in the 1st round of combat if the target is flat-footed, if your rogue is invisable, if the target is stunned, etc. These conditions have nothing to do with flanking however.


----------



## Darklone (Jul 4, 2003)

wolfen said:
			
		

> *I don't understand the significance of the hairs you are splitting.  If I get through (or curl around) the enemies' front lines and see their backs, I'm getting a sneak attack. Whether it's a ranged attack within 30 ft, or melee, someone's gettin' an extra d6. *




There are no backs in D&D. They have no facing in combat. We are not splitting hairs. You don't threaten with ranged attacks, thus you don't flank, thus you don't sneak attack. Thus noone's getting an extra d6. 

Thank you.


----------



## wolfen (Jul 5, 2003)

Darklone said:
			
		

> *
> 
> There are no backs in D&D. They have no facing in combat. We are not splitting hairs. You don't threaten with ranged attacks, thus you don't flank, thus you don't sneak attack. Thus noone's getting an extra d6.
> 
> Thank you. *




First, let me apologize for not making clear that I was referring to age-old rules not found in the 3E book... 

While I accept your fundamentalist usage of the 3E rules, I find both your demeanor and your conclusion disagreeable.  Let me explain.

Let's say you have an invisible attacker within 5 ft. of you, right in front of you as far as you can tell (not that it matters, says you).  But here's this thing you can swing at, get a bead on in various ways, etc....but you don't get your dex bonus for AC.  Why? ONLY because you don't see him.

Then, let's say a different attacker is behind you (in the real world, such a thing happens more often than invisible combatants).  You don't see him.  You don't know a ranged attack is heading for you.  But you get your dex bonus to AC?  Ridiculous.  It's an obvious hole in the ruleset.  I've played every edition since the game came out, and every group recognized the need to acknowledge facing.

I'm not saying your interpretation of the rules is poor, it's woefully perfect. I just think it's silly when people actually play D&D as if there were no facing during combat.  It's ludicrous.  Anyone who's had the slightest combat training (hand-to-hand or coordinated groups) understands the tremendous advantage of being BEHIND your target.  The Maginot Line is just one entertaining example of this tactical fact.

Now, if WOTC wants to omit something as crucial as facing to make the game more simple and approachable to teenagers, great!  And if rules lawyers want to pretend that most combatants do not have a front and a back, fine.  They can all just trade power attack blows with big monsters.  The world would be simpler if we were all Mike Tyson.  Much simpler.

Meanwhile, I defend my group's employment of logical house rules.  

Secondarily, not every situation requiring the loss of one's dex bonus is published.  DM's have to think through unpublished situations all the time.  Just 'cause it ain't published don't mean it don't happen.  

Purely as an aside, it does not serve you well to use the phrase "Thank you" in that way.  It communicates arrogance, not knowledge.  I accept your well-trained application of the rules, but there's no need to convey superiority.


----------



## Camarath (Jul 5, 2003)

MarauderX said:
			
		

> *  Grappling Block.  Coolest Feat Ever.*




I love this feat, it can be very useful and powerful, as well as having a great aesthetic feel to it. One of my favorite characters, I have played in 3rd, made extensive use of this feat. He was a LG Psion/Monk/Shintao Monk who only dealt subdual damage (not as bad as you might think).


----------



## Mike Sullivan (Jul 5, 2003)

wolfen said:
			
		

> *Now, if WOTC wants to omit something as crucial as facing to make the game more simple and approachable to teenagers, great!  And if rules lawyers want to pretend that most combatants do not have a front and a back, fine.  They can all just trade power attack blows with big monsters.  The world would be simpler if we were all Mike Tyson.  Much simpler.*




You know, there _is_ a happy medium, here, which is neither the claim that "nobody in D&D has a back," nor "only idiots wouldn't house-rule in facing in combat."

The rule that there is no facing in combat is not meant to imply that the characters in combat have 360 degree vision.  Rather, it's that your basic combatant, having a healthy respect for his own life, is going to be turning his head, dancing around in his 5' by 5' square, and otherwise not ignoring Joe with the bow over there -- or even Joe who doesn't obviously have a bow, but is within charge range.  This is for the very reason that being behind someone _is_ an advantage.

Now, if there's some reason why this particular combatant _wouldn't_ be paying attention to Joe, then sure, it makes sense for him to be denied Dex bonus.  Use your favorite euphamism ("Rule Zero," "House Rule," "GM fiat") for using common sense over strict adherence to what's in the book.

However, your implicit claim that the only reason bows don't threaten an opponent is that the rules are dumbed down for "teenagers" (who are, in my experience, more tolerant of complex rules than adult gamers) is just not right.  There is a particular simulation which the game is making when it says that bows don't threaten -- specifically, that while two people on either side of a person can coordinate their attacks to hit that person while he's turned to deal with the other guy, someone thirty feet away who has to nock, draw, and fire an arrow each time he wants to "threaten" his opponent just doesn't have the same level of versatility -- nor does a melee combatant, when engaged, immediately begin ignoring everyone on the battlefield who is not within five feet of him.


----------



## Technik4 (Jul 5, 2003)

Wolfen:

How does your house-rule apply to characters with Uncanny Dodge (Cannot be Flanked)? Do you consider it a "ranged flank" or is the target merely denied his Dex bonus to AC because the rogue is "invisible" as far as he is concerned. If he is denied his dex, what if he saw the rogue climbing up behind him, or had some other indication that there would be an attack from the rear. Furthermore, after the first attack, is he _still_ denied his Dex? I mean, he know recognizes a threat from his rear, even if he is facing someone ahead of him in combat. 

You see, the problem I see is that it would be far too easy for rogues to get sneak attacks. I myself often play a character with rogue levels, and I manipulate battlemaps to get into flanks, deny targets their Dex through bluffing and higher initiative, or try to Hide before battle so that even if I lose initiative I can "surprise" someone.

It seems that if all I had to do was "flank" them at range, I would have no reason to ever wield a melee weapon, I mean why bother? As it is, most rogues concentrate on melee over ranged, precisely for that benefit - more sneak attacks.

I'm not trying to attack you, just figure out how you adjucate these various rulings that would seem to stem from your house rule. Personally I think it would complicate play for a variety of reasons, namely the rogue taking to long to map out where he wanted to go, or asking a lot of questions to exploit the terrain/environment for a ranged sneak. Imo, it might be interesting to have a "Sniper" prc which could do things like that, but I wouldnt let every Joe-Rogue do it.

Technik


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 5, 2003)

Ok, back to the Monk issue still at hand...
The problem I found was being able to get all the feats necessary to get the Grappling Block and still have Weapon Finesse so as to use Dex for attacking - and keep it all at a 4th level character.  I decided to go with a human for the feats and would take 2 levels in fighter for the feats and hit points.  Let know if I have gone beyond the bounds of the books, and refresh your memory of the prereqs for this feat:
Improved Unarmed Strike (Automatic Monk feat)
Deflect arrows (2nd level automatic Monk feat)
Int 13+ (This one changes up the stats, as you will see below)
Expertise (Fighter feat)
Improved Disarm (Fighter feat)
Combat Reflexes (Human feat)
Weapon Finesse: unarmed (1st level feat)
Grappling Block (3rd level feat)

The stats for the character would end up being:
Str = 10
Dex = 16
Con = 12
Int = 14 
Wis = 16
Cha = 8

With this layout, his AC=16 from the start, and with Expertise he could raise it up to 19 (BAB=+3).  HP would be higher, from 17-40, 27 is around the average.  

After reaching this goal, I started thinking about the chances of being able to use the Grappling Block.  Essentially, if an enemy has a better BAB, the chances for using it successfully become substantially less as my target DC is the attack roll made by my opponent.  Then say I use Expertise to try to raise my AC up to 19 so as not get hit by him, and he still hits, I would need to match his hit with one of my own - at only a +3.  So for example, I am facing a 4th level fighter with an attack bonus=+8 (+4 Str, +4 BAB).  If I use Expertise to raise up my AC to 19, he only needs to roll an 11 to strike me (50% chance).  Now say he rolls a 15 for a total of 23.  I would need to roll a 20 to match that 23 - a 5% chance.  I roll an 8, and he clobbers me in my outstreched arms for 12 points of damage.  
Now I could stop using the expertise, and the chances of him tagging me just went up, but the target attack roll I would need to reach might be much less.  Say in the next round the fighter swings at my AC=16 and hits by rolling a 10 for a total of 18.  I roll a 14 to GB for a total of 20 - successfully blocking and disarming him.  Now I drop his weapon behind me, and pray he doesn't have Quickdraw.  

Now using the GB feat against opponent with a lower attack bonus would be sweet, as the attack bonuses that hit you become weaker.  It starts to become a problem once it is realized that a Monk BAB does not ramp up as quickly as a fighters and by 15th level it becomes almost way too lopsided to even have the feat vs. a fighter opponent of your level.  Hopefully by then new feats and greater HP will make up for it, and there is only one way to do it - playtest it and survive.


----------



## wolfen (Jul 5, 2003)

Technik4 said:
			
		

> *Wolfen:
> 
> How does your house-rule apply to characters with Uncanny Dodge (Cannot be Flanked)? *




That is a clearly spelled out rule that imparts a fantastic skill to a character.  If he can't be flanked he can't be flanked.



> * If he is denied his dex, what if he saw the rogue climbing up behind him, or had some other indication that there would be an attack from the rear.
> *





I think with uncanny dodge, you must assume that they always have such an indication, and are therefore not flanked.  However, a normal character might also see this coming (per DM).  I think this is where the DM must rule -- and where WOTC cops out.

*



			Furthermore, after the first attack, is he still denied his Dex? I mean, he now recognizes a threat from his rear, even if he is facing someone ahead of him in combat.
		
Click to expand...


*

Your questions are all excellent. I think people must think through the flanking issue.  A person fighting two people in front of him (a la 3 Musketeers) is not flanked.  Flanking is advantageous precisely BECAUSE there is facing.  It's not as though WOTC has an arbitrary flanking term applied to their combat system -- their combat system is trying to reflect real combat.

So if you accept that fact, then you see that a ranged attack MUST (logically) have the same flanking benefits as a melee if your target is engaged in melee with somone on their opposite side.  Imagine a target is flanked...now just move flanker#1  20ft directly away from them, but still 180degrees opposite from flanker #2.  Now place a throwing axe in flanker#1 hand.  

Now think -- is the target threatened from opposing directions?  Yes.  Does it really matter if he knows this in the above circumstance?  Logically, it would obviously be more advantageous to flanker#1 if the target DIDN'T feel threatened from that direction!  Why should a ranged attack not get a flanking bonus in this circumstance?  Whether the target recognizes it or not, he's flanked.

Aircraft carriers, tanks, bows, machine guns...all were created because ranged attacks DO threaten larger areas than a sword.  WOTC is being inconsistent in their use of flanking.  I'm not sure why, but it doesn't really matter.  Anyone who cares to have a more realistic system just has to recognize the truth of the simulated situation and adjust from there.

Yes, rogues become more powerful -- but so does everyone else.  And in a real "Braveheart-esque" battle, everyone's gotta watch their back because double-flanking is a PITA.  A and C flank B, but B and D flank C.

I am willing to concede that, for simplicity's sake, it might be best to create a sniper rogue subclass.  But in the long term I hope WOTC publishes optional rules for DM's to make combat more realistic, as was done with 2E.

Anyway, thanks for entertaining my house rule.  I feel bad for hijacking the thread, but it is quite relevant to the use of a halfling rogue/monk.  I'll stop posting to it, now, and maybe one day someone will create a new thread around this issue.


----------



## Felix (Jul 5, 2003)

Well, I've not seen the feat, but Marauder, it seems like you've reworked your entire character to be able to take Grappling Block. And you say it's not even all that useful to a monk whose BAB doesn't go up that fast. Besides, your feat progression doesn't work if all of those feats are prereqs for GB:

1st Level Feats: Weapon Finesse (Char level)
..........................Combat Reflexes (Human)
..........................Expertise (Fighter)
2nd Level Feats: Improved Disarm (Fighter)
3rd Level Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
.......................... [Grappling Block] (Char level)
4th Level Feats: Deflect Arrows

If Deflect Arrows is indeed a prereq, you won't be able to take Grappling Block until 6th level. And for this you want to rework your whole character? A 6th level feat? Sounds dubious, dude.

[For everybody who thinks I'm being short with Marauder, which I am, on purpose, it's because we game together and I think the halfling monk would have good synergy with the group. Not that a human monk wouldn't, but rearrange all for one feat?]


----------



## Camarath (Jul 6, 2003)

My suggestion would be to go for Shintao Monk if that fits with your vision of the character because the bonus feats can realy help you gain some of the nice OA feats. You can also trade stunning attack (as well as Deflect Arrows and Improved Trip) for a bonus feat if you want as per the OA Monk. At level 15 you would have a BAB 4 less than a 15th level fighter this is not insurmountable. The feat is not good enough to build your whole character around but can be a nice addition to your character. I don't know what type of play style you guys have but I have found monks to be enjoyable from a flavor and roleplaying stand point rather than from a powergaming one. They tend to be frustratingly back loaded, you always feel like your waiting for some feat or ability. I suggest you build your monk around a roleplaying idea and have fun with that wile your characters abilities develop.

Also you might consider playing a Nezumi thier speed makes them a good race for a monk and scent is fun.


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 6, 2003)

Felix said:
			
		

> *Well, I've not seen the feat, but Marauder, it seems like you've reworked your entire character to be able to take Grappling Block. And you say it's not even all that useful to a monk whose BAB doesn't go up that fast. Besides, your feat progression doesn't work if all of those feats are prereqs for GB:
> 
> 1st Level Feats: Weapon Finesse (Char level)
> ..........................Combat Reflexes (Human)
> ...




Dang.  You are so right, I couldn't acquire the feat until 6th level no matter what I do.  Having a human with high intellegence (besides the feats) allows the PC to load up on skill points like listen, tumble, hide, and move silently.  Granted the max total ranks would be a bit lower for hide and listen, but the feat abilities far outweigh it all to me.  Having Expertise to raise up the AC could be handy at times, along with Improved Disarm so as not to provoke an AoO.  Attacks will be nearly the same, but damage will be significantly more.  
Instead of being able to take the Grappling Block, it could be replaced with Dodge or another, and at 6th level the choice would be to pursue Grappling Block, or backtrack and extend into one of the other feat 'trees': Mobility (followed by Spring Attack); Sunder (followed by Eagle Claw Attack) or even Improved Grapple (followed by Choke Hold).  It's not all about the feats, but they sure make it easier to deal with opponents.  

Camarath:  The Shintao Monk looks pretty cool, but I will need to have a BAB of +4 to take it, as well as sink skill points in Knoledge(religion) to get 8 ranks.  Not sure if I want to go that way either.  Then again, all 3 of the 'monk' PrCs listed in the OA require the same amount.


----------



## krunchyfrogg (Jul 6, 2003)

Don't underestimate the halfling monk.  Their racial bonuses are all very useful to you, whether it be the skill points, better AC, or saves.

The halfling monk won't dish out a lot of damage, but neither does _any_ monk.  If you want to dish out massive damage, don't play a monk.

The halfling monk is a survivalist and a support character.  He never fails a saving throw.  He helps the rogue out immensly by tumbling into flanking position.  

One level (or three) of rogue isn't a bad idea, but either will cut short your monk career.  The added skill points and sneak attack damage is what balances the two out; it's up to you.


----------



## Camarath (Jul 6, 2003)

[







			
				MarauderX said:
			
		

> *Camarath:  The Shintao Monk looks pretty cool, but I will need to have a BAB of +4 to take it, as well as sink skill points in Knoledge(religion) to get 8 ranks.  Not sure if I want to go that way either.  Then again, all 3 of the 'monk' PrCs listed in the OA require the same amount. *




Knowledge(Religion) is a class skill for monks in OA so its not as bad as it looks. You need 5 or 6 levels at least 4 of those levels need to be monk levels to enter Shintao Monk. So you could start the class at 6th (with a 4 monk/1 good BAB class) or 7th level (with 6 monk or 4 monk/2 any other class). The Tattooed Monk is fun also especialy if you have a high Con and take the DR tattoo. You could  play a halfling multiclassed Paladin/Monk (maybe the Shintao Monk too) that could be fun and you could get your saves pretty high.


----------



## Darklone (Jul 7, 2003)

wolfen said:
			
		

> *Aircraft carriers, tanks, bows, machine guns...all were created because ranged attacks DO threaten larger areas than a sword.  WOTC is being inconsistent in their use of flanking.  I'm not sure why, but it doesn't really matter.  Anyone who cares to have a more realistic system just has to recognize the truth of the simulated situation and adjust from there. *



Well wolfen, forgive me my sarcastic comments, but I couldn't resist after your obvious ignorance to the existing rules in the rules forum. Your arguments may be fine, but this forum is not the place to start (well known) "The rules are silly" discussions. 

As for your arguments: D&D tries to emulate realistic combat with medieval weapons. Assuming you stand with a bow 30ft next to a swordfighter (without arrow knocked), if he's busy with another swordfighter or not, you (the archer) are in a losing situation. 

The rules allow to simulate a more or less realistic/fantastic combat with a balance that allows to play most weapon combinations. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't like the rules, there are many different systems out there with partially very nice rule mechanics. There is even a houserules forum next door with great ideas. But it's a little bit funny on your behalf to come into the rules forum and tell everyone that our criticism on your examples is wrong without further explaining in the first few posts that you houseruled the whole matter.

Back to topic: 
MarauderX: In the OA book there's that feat Defensive Strike... have a look at that one. Maybe you like it.

OTOH: Try shuriken with poison.


----------



## MarauderX (Jul 8, 2003)

krunchyfrogg said:
			
		

> *Don't underestimate the halfling monk.  Their racial bonuses are all very useful to you, whether it be the skill points, better AC, or saves.
> 
> The halfling monk won't dish out a lot of damage, but neither does any monk.  If you want to dish out massive damage, don't play a monk.
> 
> ...




I think you address the important issues that I have with a halfling monk (HM from now on...).  The HM does not deal out a lot of damage, which makes can make a huge difference in a campaign of our type.  Granted he shouldn't be on the front lines, but his placed behind the lines may just secure an early grave given the HM low movement rate in 3.0.  

The higher skill points are really just a minor issue overall, and having a human with Int=14 easily has more skill points than the HM, they just can't go as high to start.  

I liked the rogue idea, but it has too many drawbacks to make it useful as a monk, and may as well just stay with being a rogue for his career.

The things that I will miss will be the +1 to AC and +1 to all saves.  As a complete package it is hard to give up a HM, but the benefits for being human are big enough to ensure he will survive - his primary goal, after all.  

Darklone:  Thanks for putting a period on that tangent discussion.  
Defensive strike is good to have as well, but the total defensive action for a round kinda kills it for me.  I don't forsee enough opportunities to use it either.  I hope to see and use plenty of shuriken as a poison delivery device.


----------



## Darklone (Jul 8, 2003)

MarauderX said:
			
		

> *Defensive strike is good to have as well, but the total defensive action for a round kinda kills it for me.  I don't forsee enough opportunities to use it either.  I hope to see and use plenty of shuriken as a poison delivery device.  *




The reason why I proposed Defensive Strike is the abovementioned ability of the HM to be invincible 
Combat Reflexes combined with the high dex and that feat will give a lot of AoOs per round  (Too bad you can hit everyone only once).


----------

