# EN World City Project: Geography



## The Grey Dwarf

Next draft...
I had to trim the edges a bit to be able to display the image here.

There are three kind of permanent camps outside the city: clay, sapphires and silk gatherers.

The north road leads to the Kul Moren Mines.


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## Lalato

Just a couple of questions...
What program are you using?
What's the scale of the map?

--sam


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## The Grey Dwarf

lalato said:
			
		

> *Just a couple of questions...
> What program are you using?
> What's the scale of the map?
> --sam *



[shame] Paint [/shame] Still haven't found my Photoshop CDs.
As for the scale, I was thinking of something between 100m and 200m according to the size (pop) of the city.


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## Lalato

This may be a stupid question... but is that 100 meters or 100 miles?

--sam


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## Conaill

Nice map, Grey Dwarf! Couple of suggestions:

- I would make the river somewhat narrower, especially where it flows through the city. For a bunch of reasons: 1) cities are built where it's easiest to cross a river; 2) if the river is too wide, the city tends to develop one only one side, not on *three* sides like on your map; 3) a medieval city will tend to reinforce its riverbanks, which narrows he river further.

- We need several bridges connecting the different sides of the river. At least one on each branch, preferally several more (I'd say at least one more connecting the "big island" with the mainland.

- Krug suggested a slums area in the other thread. Such an area should probably be on the downriver side of the city, because that's the most "undesirable" location (sewage coming downriver etc!)



			
				Krug said:
			
		

> *Additionally, I think there should an area called the Squats. This is where the squatters, composed of the lower class, refugees and rural folk just arrived in town, reside. Some part of the Squats extend into the warrens, despite the warnings of the local watchguards.
> 
> The Squats has an open area called the Brown Market (named so for the colour of the water there) where anyone may set up a shop or stall. Most stalls sell food or other small household items. Various gangs assert their territorial rights here, collecting 'protection money' from stall owners and bashing pickpockets. Jongleurs and entertainers are also prominent, and surrounding the market are a bunch of seedy taverns and inns catering to out of towners and those passing by.*


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## Conaill

One more thing: If we're going to have some sort of reinforced structure such as a castle or palace, it should probably be defended by the river, i.e. on the "big island", or on one of the smaller islands in the center of the city.


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## Knightfall

lalato said:
			
		

> *This may be a stupid question... but is that 100 meters or 100 miles?
> 
> --sam *




I'm pretty sure he means that each hex is going to be 100/200 meters and not that the map is going to be 100/200 miles across.

But I could be wrong.

Rob


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## The Grey Dwarf

lalato said:
			
		

> *This may be a stupid question... but is that 100 meters or 100 miles?
> --sam *



Meters, sorry. I don't have a convertion tool at hand.  


			
				conaill said:
			
		

> *Nice map, Grey Dwarf! Couple of suggestions:
> - I would make the river somewhat narrower, especially where it flows through the city. For a bunch of reasons: 1) cities are built where it's easiest to cross a river; 2) if the river is too wide, the city tends to develop one only one side, not on *three* sides like on your map; 3) a medieval city will tend to reinforce its riverbanks, which narrows he river further.
> - We need several bridges connecting the different sides of the river. At least one on each branch, preferally several more (I'd say at least one more connecting the "big island" with the mainland.
> - Krug suggested a slums area in the other thread. Such an area should probably be on the downriver side of the city, because that's the most "undesirable" location (sewage coming downriver etc!)*



Thanks.
I thought the city first developed on one side of the river but, after the raids and the city being burned down several times, the counsellors of the city decided to the man the other riverbanks.
Just a thought.
As for the slums, either down the river or on the side closest to the swamps (smell, vermine, fog... ambiance). We can have both, the city is big enough. The one downriver being merely poor, the other being poor and nasty. 
The bridges: I'm waiting a bit for those as I'd like to have the districts sorted out first. I think Jolly was willing to tackle that.


> _Originally posted by conaill_
> *One more thing: If we're going to have some sort of reinforced structure such as a castle or palace, it should probably be defended by the river, i.e. on the "big island", or on one of the smaller islands in the center of the city.*



I was thinking that the biggest of the two islands inside the city could hold some kind of military structure.

I'll change the map to narrow the river.
Keep it coming!


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## The Grey Dwarf

I had some spare time, so, next version:

 - The river width has been halved (more or less).
 - The bridges were added.
 - A castle was added to the main island.
 - Watchtowers were added around the city.
 - I propose to place the city council (or whatever) on the second island: the Island of Towers. A place where Knid Vermicious could go berzerk IMO.


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## Lalato

If it's meters, then I say 200, not 100.  

My reasoning:

Permanent Residents: 10,000+
# of People in a Caravan:  500 to 2000

City size at 100m:  roughly 1.3 km2 (squared)
City size at 200m:  roughly 2.6 km2

It's difficult for me to think in km, and I'm being admittedly lazy by not looking up the conversion, but 1.3 sounds like about 1 mile.  

1 square mile doesn't sound like enough space to house 10,000+ people and the shops, and the marketplaces, etc.  Then a large caravan comes through with 1000 more people.

Then again... I'm not an expert on medieval cities so I could be completely wrong on that point.

Question:  Will there be a caravan staging area within the city walls?  Or will caravans remain outside the city walls?

--sam


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## The Grey Dwarf

lalato said:
			
		

> *If it's meters, then I say 200, not 100.
> My reasoning:
> Permanent Residents: 10,000+
> # of People in a Caravan:  500 to 2000
> City size at 100m:  roughly 1.3 km2 (squared)
> City size at 200m:  roughly 2.6 km2
> It's difficult for me to think in km, and I'm being admittedly lazy by not looking up the conversion, but 1.3 sounds like about 1 mile.
> 1 square mile doesn't sound like enough space to house 10,000+ people and the shops, and the marketplaces, etc.  Then a large caravan comes through with 1000 more people.
> Then again... I'm not an expert on medieval cities so I could be completely wrong on that point.
> Question:  Will there be a caravan staging area within the city walls?  Or will caravans remain outside the city walls?
> --sam *



I had the feeling that 200 was a bit much but I hadn't taken the caravans into account. If we want the caravans inside, 200 seems right.
I've found a conversion table: we could settle for 200 yards per hex (that's about 180 meters) giving roughly 2.3 Km2 (about 1.5 sq mile). That way I'm the only one that has to do conversions and not everyone else.


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## Knightfall

Here's a great Online Conversion site.  It's has the ability to convert almost anything.

Online Conversion
http://www.onlineconversion.com/

Cheers!

KF72


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## The Grey Dwarf

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Here's a great Online Conversion site.  It's has the ability to convert almost anything.
> Online Conversion
> http://www.onlineconversion.com/
> Cheers!
> KF72 *




Bookmarked! Thanks KF72.


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## Krug

This is a good reference: Medieval Demographcs made easy

http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm


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## The Grey Dwarf

Bookmarked too! Thanks.
As it's already midnight, I'll have a look tomorrow.


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## Conaill

Hi guys! As I posetd earlier in the original thread, "A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe" from Expeditious Retreat Press" is a terrific resource for stuff like this as well:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=711

According to MMS, a Small City has a population density of 80-120 adults/acre, and 40-60 structures/acre. That comes to a total of about 100 acres (less than 1/2 a mile side-to-side!) and ~5000 structures.

Just checking the conversion tool... 100 acres is a circle with a 360 meter (1200 feet) radius.

Keep in mind we are talking about a SMALL city here. That is _small for a fantasy/medieval city_! We're not talking something like medeval Paris or London or so. If you've ever visited a small european city which still has its medieval city wall, the area encompassed by the wall is tiny compared to he current-day city...


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## Knightfall

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Keep in mind we are talking about a SMALL city here. That is small for a fantasy/medieval city! We're not talking something like medeval Paris or London or so. If you've ever visited a small european city which still has its medieval city wall, the area encompassed by the wall is tiny compared to he current-day city... *




I agree, it's really important to get the scale of the city and the surrounding terrian correct at this point.  We don't want to have to explain discrepencies or "fix it" later.

Rob


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## Krug

Yes, I'm learning a lot as we go.
Thanks Gray Dwarf for your patience.


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## Lalato

> Yes, I'm learning a lot as we go.




Me too!!!  

--sam


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## Jolly Giant

The Grey Dwarf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> As for the slums, either down the river or on the side closest to the swamps (smell, vermine, fog... ambiance). We can have both, the city is big enough. The one downriver being merely poor, the other being poor and nasty.
> The bridges: I'm waiting a bit for those as I'd like to have the districts sorted out first. I think Jolly was willing to tackle that.*
> 
> I'd sure like to make a contribution, Grey One...  BTW, great job with the map! Must be a lot of work doing it with good old 'Paint'.
> 
> I'm still on the tossing-around-ideas stage, mind you, but here are my thoughts so far:
> 
> Slums: As you said, the city's certainly big enough to have two of them, and placing one near the swamps and one downstream makes a lot of sence. Can't remember who came up with it, but I love the name "The Squats"!
> 
> The homes of the truely wealthy would logically be located upstream, where the river and air is the cleanest, and obviously away from the swamp.
> 
> The houses of the city's old families would most likely be somewhere in the middle of the city. This would be 'the old town', probably looking a little different from the newer districts that sprung up around it as the city expanded in all directions.
> 
> The government district could either be a part of the old town, or the city's growth could mean there has been need for more/bigger/better/newer houses of goverment, in which case they'd be somewhere on the outskirts of town with the more resent buildings. (Oops, just remembered your Island of Towers! Perfect location for a 'Old Town'-type goverment district!)
> 
> Harbors will obviously be very important to a city with a location like this. Trade ships are likely at least as common as caravans. Every little stretch of riverbank inside the city walls probably has a distincively 'harbor' feel to it.
> 
> However, I feel some locations should be even more clearly harbor district than the rest. There should be a dock somewhere upstream that's mainly for riverboats going between Mor's End and the Kul Moren mines.
> 
> The biggest harbor would most likely be along the biggest (western) river outlet, just up from the squats. This part of the city would have a lot of big warehouses and winches along the banks, for loading and unloading ships.
> 
> A bit further into the city (but not too far!) there would be a number of smaller docks for fishing boats. The fishermen was there before the traders, and so their docks would be closer to the original townsite.
> 
> A city this big would also need a wharf or two (or three!). These take up a lot of land, but isn't very fuzzy, so I guess the wharfowners would go for the less expensive plots downstream. I think along the southern fork of the river would be good a location for them.
> 
> Finally, I must admit to having a bit of crush on the notion of a small harbor district where the docks are built specifically for the smaller ships and boats of halflings and gnomes. Imagine all the little halfling inns, with their wonderful cooks, performers and pick pockets!  I'll be making a gnome NPC ships merchant, that would fit perfectly in such a location; a seller of ships rations, fishing nets, tools, rope etc. But also strange and wonderful devices he makes in his toolshed after closing time...
> 
> Gotta go now, but I'll be back after some hard thinking and sleeping!


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## Conaill

Some more details:

The central island would have been the major river crosing at first. Much easier to cross from shore to island to shore than cross the river all at once. That would also have made the island the prime location to place the tollgate, which eventually grew into the castle. 

With the new bridges downstream (and one of them _should_ be called "Newbridge", no matter how old it is ) the island obviously no longer serves as toolgate. But if we ever get around to mapping the castle and the island in more detail, there should still be an imposing gate structure on the island

Just thought of something else: we may also want to have a toll gate on the _river_, for ships passing from the lake (and further upstream?) to the ocean. Again, the central island could (still) fulfill that function.

Once we have the large-scale map more or less worked out, we should proably make a higher resolution one for the city itself.


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## The Grey Dwarf

Conaill said:
			
		

> *According to MMS, a Small City has a population density of 80-120 adults/acre, and 40-60 structures/acre. That comes to a total of about 100 acres (less than 1/2 a mile side-to-side!) and ~5000 structures.
> Just checking the conversion tool... 100 acres is a circle with a 360 meter (1200 feet) radius.*



This gives us roughly 90 yards per hex on the current map. We should take 100 yards per hex to make for the place taken by the river. What do you think?


			
				Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *I agree, it's really important to get the scale of the city and the surrounding terrian correct at this point. We don't want to have to explain discrepencies or "fix it" later.*



I totally agree.


			
				Krug said:
			
		

> *Thanks Gray Dwarf for your patience. *



If I was any good at it, I wouldn't need to be patient.  

Jolly, you definitely got  yourself the job.  
If you can come up with a rough sketch of the district repartition and size, mail it to me. I'll do the adjustments to the map.
As for Paint, it's mainly a CopyPaste job.

I'll start to work on the city map right now. I think I'll use Autocad for that. I'll be faster for me.


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## Lalato

When someone says Autocad will be faster...  That person is way out of my league.  

--sam


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## Jolly Giant

Gray Dwarf, I'm starting work on a first draft of the districts now. Do you reckon the squats should be within or outside the city walls? Maybe a little of both? Personally, I think it should be outside the walls. Anybody else got any input here?


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## Lalato

Squats... I say outside... near the swamps...

The residents of the Squats have been reporting strange lights coming from the swamps for weeks.  No one paid too much attention until people started coming up missing...  

--sam


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## The Grey Dwarf

lalato said:
			
		

> *When someone says Autocad will be faster...  That person is way out of my league.
> --sam *



LOL. I've been using it professionally for 10 years before finding a proper job.  

The Squats: I would say to start inside along the south palissade and spread towards the swamp. This will be the weak point in the city defences (there's always one!).


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## Jolly Giant

Ok, here are my thoughts so far. Now let me hear yours!  

I've located the military barracks between the southern and western outlet, and one between the eastern inlet and the government district. Felt this made the most sense, as these are probably the places that needs defences the most. But maybe there shouldn't be more than one of them? Are two one too many?

I've placed the shopping districts along the main roads. That makes the most sense to me.

For the logic behind the other placings, see my previous post.


*Mor's End Districts* 

1) The Squats
2) A mistake. Please ignore!
3) Ships wharfs
4) Old Town
5) Island of Towers, old government district
6) Docks for riverboats between Mor's End and Kul Moren
7) Dwarven town
8) The posh district, full of rich people
9) Port Jollita, the  halfling and gnome district.
10) Shopping districts
11) Fishermans docks. Smelly!
12) Wearhouses and docks for trade ships
13) Newer government district
14) Military districts

The rest: Largely residential

Of course, these labels wouldn't be absolutes. That large
portions of the city are called shopping districts, doesn't mean
there aren't any residential buildings there, or that no shops
can be found elsewhere! It merely indicates the districts
dominant feature...

Edit: Seems I can neither draw nor spell!


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## Jolly Giant

Gray Dwarf, I apologize for the horrible violation to your map! Obviously, I'm no artist...


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## Conaill

Jolly: it looks like you reversed direction in the river! The river flows left to right: outflow out of the lake is towards the left, ocean is somewhere to the right.

In other words, you're going to have to switch around the location for the Squats etc, and the posh districts!


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## Lalato

> This gives us roughly 90 yards per hex on the current map. We should take 100 yards per hex to make for the place taken by the river. What do you think?




One unfortunate thing of a hex being 100 yards is that the river will have to be widen inside the city.


--sam


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## Jolly Giant

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Jolly: it looks like you reversed direction in the river! The river flows left to right: outflow out of the lake is towards the left, ocean is somewhere to the right.
> 
> In other words, you're going to have to switch around the location for the Squats etc, and the posh districts! *




Dang! Is that really how the river runs? I thought you had to cross the lake and go down another river to get to the sea?

You mean the river flows UP the delta, OVER the mountains to get to the sea?


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## Conaill

Jolly Giant said:
			
		

> *You mean the river flows UP the delta, OVER the mountains to get to the sea?  *




Sorta. The delta isn't really a delta, the river flows out of the lake at left, around the big island, through the city, and then through a narrower channel in between the mountains, to the sea at right. (Hope _I_ got that right... )


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## Lalato

> You mean the river flows UP the delta, OVER the mountains to get to the sea?




I just noticed that you had river boats going to Kul Moren.  There is no river that goes to Kul Moren.  There may be some small streams that come from Kul Moren into the lake, but that's about it.

Lake Enoria is partially spring-fed.  The River Mor flows East from the lake.  It is modeled after Lake Ontario which flows into the St. Lawrence River.

The River Mor does eventually deposit into the sea 1000 or more  miles away.  My guess is that it probably joins another river before meeting the ocean.

Lake Enoria itself is roughly the size of Lake Ontario... meaning it is about 100 miles long and about 50 miles wide.  It's a huge lake.  The area around it is hilly and rocky with a few patches of farmable land.  The hills are great, however, for the large Argali sheep that have become a staple of the local economy.

--sam


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## Jolly Giant

Sounds like a mighty strange river... Can somebody confirm this? A lot of things need to switch places if Connail's right.

On a side note:
No matter which way the river flows, there must be some pretty good rapids by the eastern pallisade, considering how narrow the river is there...


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## Conaill

By the way, here are some excellent links to medieval city maps, for your entertainment and inspiration...

Historic Cities: Maps & Documents: dozens of city maps, from Aachen to Zurich, and from the 15th century to the 18th.

Dutch City maps from Blaeu's Toonneel der Steden: excellent quality, aerial-view city maps from the 1600's. Lots of water, lots of military reinforcements.


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## Lalato

> You mean the river flows UP the delta, OVER the mountains to get to the sea?




I noted earlier that the river will have to be widen.  Right now, at 100 yards per hex, it's far to narrow to be navigable.

--sam


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## Krug

Conaill said:
			
		

> *By the way, here are some excellent links to medieval city maps, for your entertainment and inspiration...
> 
> Historic Cities: Maps & Documents: dozens of city maps, from Aachen to Zurich, and from the 15th century to the 18th.
> 
> Dutch City maps from Blaeu's Toonneel der Steden: excellent quality, aerial-view city maps from the 1600's. Lots of water, lots of military reinforcements. *




Wow great links!


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## Conaill

lalato said:
			
		

> *I noted earlier that the river will have to be widen.  Right now, at 100 yards per hex, it's far to narrow to be navigable.*




Actually, I think 100 yards would be _plenty_ for medieval-type trading ships. I'll try to dig up some maps for you to illustrate.

...

Argh! Of course the medieval maps don't have any scale printed on them... Ah well.

Personally, I grew up in Ghent, Belgium, which has a set of fairly narrow rivers running through it. Ghent was an important trade city during the middle ages, and had a flourishing ship trade. Here's a map (caution: BIG!)...

http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/ghent/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_15_b.jpg

See those blobs in the river, especially below the fort? Those aren't islands, they're ships.

AHA! Here's a Yahoo map of the center of town, focusing on the quays where the ships would unload their cargo in the middle ages. (that's the area below and right of the fort on the medieval map; medieval map has North towards the right!) 

http://uk.maps.yahoo.com/py/lg:uk/l...e&BFCat=&BFClient=&mag=9&desc=&cs=5&newmag=10

Note that on this scale, the river is barely 100 _feet_! It was probably a little wider in the middle ages, but 100 _yards_ sounds fine to me.

Here's another small city with a river running through it, Zierzee in Holland. Notice the width of the river, compared to the church:

http://grid.let.rug.nl/~welling/maps/zierzee.gif


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## Conaill

One more D&D data point:

Our current party is having their own ship built in-game right now. It'll be a Carrack-type ship, with a width of 25 feet. Any river that is wide enough to carry two ships side-by-side could probably be considered navigeable... 

50 feet would be a *very* tight fit, but 100 feet is fairly comfortable, 100 yards is a major waterway, and anything much larger would probably split the city in two...


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## Lalato

Conaill... that's good stuff.

One thing I would like to note, though...  The Dutch may not be the best example for this city since most of their land is close to sea level... and they did a fair amount of terraforming to move the rivers/canals around.

Enheim is far above sea level.  If the river is that narrow it will have rapids making it very difficult to navigate... unless, it is also extremely deep.  In which case, there will be a good current, but not rapids.

Then again... I'm not an expert in these things...  I'm basically talking out of my butt.  

--sam


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## Conaill

I don't think there's too much terraforming visible on those medieval Dutch maps, I believe that really started much later. They're probably more spread out than your average medieval city though (notice all those gardens and even farmland inside the city walls?)

True, Enheim is well above sea level, but for such a sizeable lake I would expect the terrain to be reasonably flat anyway. (The swamp to the south is another good indication.) You can't really deduce the speed of the water just from the width of the river anyway. And you probably need some kind of canyon or seasonal meltwater to create rapids of the kind you're describing. All in all, the current map looks like a rather placid river to me...


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## Conaill

Here's my attempt at a more detailed map of Mor's End. 

1: Dwarven Town (away from the water, and probably on a little hill)
2: The Posh District: upstream, near the main trading route, nice view across the water
3: the main Market Square. Right on the confluence of three major trading routes
4: Begger's Market: counterpart of Market Square on the "bad" side of the river. Near the docks and fishing villages
5: The Squats: poor hygiene, extends well past the city walls
6: Port Jollita, the halfling and gnome district. Good water, pictoresque part of town, parks
7: Docks
8: "Mudville": poor quarter near the swamp. Fishing industry
9: NewBridge, built by the merchants guild to bypass the Citadel.
10: Commercial district: industry, warehouses, crafts, some docks
11: The Citadel

Note that I've made some small changes to the map as well:

1) I made the traderoute south of the river more important. If Mor's End started as an important river crossing, it seems like it would make most sense if the major trade route came from the left, cross the river at the Citadel, and continued south of the river.

2) I made the "Island of Towers" smaller, mainly to make it harder to cross the river there (leaving Citadel island as the first choice for river crossing).

3) I replaced the southernmost bridge by a ferry Seems to make more sense, because we would need a very long and high bridge there otherwise. There's probably plenty of ship travel between Port Jollita and the docks anyway.

4) We may also want to move the city walls in a little on the Southeast part of the river. There's no need for the city walls to line up on both sides, and the city fathers wouldn't want to spend too much money protecting the slums anyway


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## Conaill

Another exercise in applied demographics:

How big are the slums?

"Magical Medieval Society" lists "beggers" as the single most frequent profession, with an incidence rate of 1/7. That's a total of 1460 beggers in Mor's End. It also lists shanty towns and slums as being the densest parts of town, with 58-60 structures/acre and 116-120 adults/acre. That makes about 12 acres, or ~ 1/8 of the city


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## Lalato

> All in all, the current map looks like a rather placid river to me...




Conaill... thanks for setting me straight... 

--sam


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## wizardoftheplains

Since their are rare clay deposits nearby, where are they on the map?
Was the who area under water at one time and did the lake drop?  OR
Since rivers meander over time, is there a dry river bed that the inhabitants dig into for clay?
And do the rare colors of clay come from a source deep beneath the lake?
Just some thoughts.


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## Conaill

I guess the clay deposits could be on the "big island" west of the city. Mainly because I can't think of any other good reason why the city didn't develop any further on the island instead. 

Anyone know a _real_ geologist that we could consult on stuff like this?


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## Shadowdancer

I think the city looks great so far. A couple of suggestions:

A foreign quarter or district. With all the trade coming into town, there are going to be lots of foreigners. The city rulers would likely want them concentrated in one area so they can easily keep an eye on them.

A university quarter or district. Again, as a major trade center, the city is likely going to attract people who would start various types of schools -- wizard school, bard school, mining school. Maybe even a school in which classes in pottery making are not an easy "A" for athletics to bump up their GPA.


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## Jolly Giant

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Here's my attempt at a more detailed map of Mor's End.
> 
> 1: Dwarven Town (away from the water, and probably on a little hill)
> 2: The Posh District: upstream, near the main trading route, nice view across the water
> 3: the main Market Square. Right on the confluence of three major trading routes
> 4: Begger's Market: counterpart of Market Square on the "bad" side of the river. Near the docks and fishing villages
> 5: The Squats: poor hygiene, extends well past the city walls
> 6: Port Jollita, the halfling and gnome district. Good water, pictoresque part of town, parks
> 7: Docks
> 8: "Mudville": poor quarter near the swamp. Fishing industry
> 9: NewBridge, built by the merchants guild to bypass the Citadel.
> 10: Commercial district: industry, warehouses, crafts, some docks
> 11: The Citadel
> 
> *




Good stuff, Conaill! I can't believe I got the river the wrong way around when I did my map... Guess I read the boards a little too quickly before going to work.  

I like what you've done here, but I have one small objection: There's probably been fishing going on in the river for as long asa there've been people here. The fishermens docks were very likely the first kind of 'industry' to settle in, so shouldn't they be quite close to the original town site? Yeah, sure the place is smelly, but it was there before everyone else...


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## TGD@work

So, looks like nice work up there. I'll have a closer look tonight.
In the meantime, here's a little someting to occupy your bubbling minds.

-----------------------------------------
The city started out on the side of some tall mountain, within a mountain pass that had a river flowing through it (Fig.1).

continued next post...


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## TGD@work

The mad mage Gyrygax (LN) (alt. Gydoh Plagax) had appointed himself protector of Enheim. Seeing the corruption and the chaos reigning in the city, he set out to teach the people the ways of the law. He was ignored at best. After being told once too many to "f### off", he blew it, he constructed the Unseen Dam to drown all that filth.

The slow rising of the water allowed the people to calmly pack their things and move upwards along the mountain, ruining the Demented One's plan. Out of sheer rage, Gyrygax blasted the top of the mountain the people were climbing, hoping that the rocks would crush them. This was only marginally more successful as only 100 people or so were hurt by debris, the main part of the rock having simply vanished. The people were thus supplied with a new place to create the city (Fig.2).

The city was still threatened by the rising of the lake. As the water found new exits and two rivers started flowing towards the east, one of which is still trying to cut new ways thus creating a swamp south of the city. To restrict the expansion of the swamp, the leaders of the city hired a powerful mage to create a small breach in the Unseen Dam. This allowed the regulation of the water level and recreated the original river flowing to the south. They didn't want to remove the dam because the lake had become a endless source of income for the community.

It is rumoured that Gyrygax is still looking for another Ring of Wishes to "finish them off this time". There is also a sect of followers of "Gyrygax the Creator" who work in the shadows to bring some order to the city.


----------



## TGD@work

After the first contact with the dwarves, it became obvious that commerce should also continue on the river flowing to the south. The Crane (Fig 3.) was created by hired dwarves and wizards to move boats over the dam. Commerce found new ways to bring resources to the City of Coins.
-------------------------------

Comments/corrections please!
The graphics obviously need someone able to do them.


----------



## Jolly Giant

WOW!!! Great background story, great illustrations!


----------



## David Argall

*too magical*

This origin is a good bit too specific.  Unless you had real stud mages around, it just won't do.  

   Better to be a tad more mundane.  Indeed, almost entirely so is quite reasonable.


----------



## Krug

*Re: too magical*



			
				David Argall said:
			
		

> *This origin is a good bit too specific.  Unless you had real stud mages around, it just won't do.
> 
> Better to be a tad more mundane.  Indeed, almost entirely so is quite reasonable. *




Yeah I'd prefer a much more non-magical origin... and also not to use Col Pladoh's name.  I think it'll get us into the same trap as ENtropy, Eric's Grandma etc. Some folks might find us hard to take seriously if there's too many in jokes.

But nice maps! Have we settled on a dam? Did medieval folks really know how to built a dam?


----------



## Conaill

Medieval folks knew how to build small earthen dams. Small, because an earthen dam requires moving a LOT of dirt. You really need something like concrete (or Mud to Rock ) for anything fancier than that.

I'd vote against the dam idea. For one, we would have to redo most of the work we've already done on the map.

Also, I would prefer an not-so-mountainous environment. rivers flowing through mountain passes do _not_ make for good trade routes. At most you could float logs down that sort of river. It's fine if we have some mountains around, but the flow of the river eastwards should be failry smooth.


----------



## TGD@work

The previous history was built on what I thought you had agreed on before:

_---------------------------------------------------------------
Geography: (Next edit needed... Grey Dwarf, whenever you've got it finalized let me know.) The city started out on the side of some tall mountain within a mountain pass that had a river flowing through it and a dam was built across the river to cut off the water that flowed south down to a lower kingdom. As years rolled by the lake grew, and the old river bed dried up (instant clay deposits).
Eventually the water found new exits from the mountains and now there are at least two rivers exiting the lake, one of which is still trying to cut a new channel, thus creating your swamp to the west (?). Now as the lake grew the city found that it had to move higher up the mountain, and was running out of room. So someone sheared the top of one peak, leaving a vast flat region, upon which the city grew. Now of course the water level of the lake is almost even with the ground, or maybe even slightly higher.
The "islands" in the lake are really the old mountain tops of some of the smaller peaks within the mountain range.
---------------------------------------------------------------_

In fact, there's no need for all this. It had a nice dramatic touch that made me want to expand it.  
And the dam is not supposed to be near the city.

Ok, back to the drawing board. 
There  might be a gap between this message and the next: another funeral (very sad week endeed).


----------



## Knightfall

TGD@work said:
			
		

> The previous history was built on what I thought you had agreed on before:
> 
> _Geography: *(Next edit needed... Grey Dwarf, whenever you've got it finalized let me know.)* The city started out on the side of some tall mountain within a mountain pass that had a river flowing through it and a dam was built across the river to cut off the water that flowed south down to a lower kingdom. As years rolled by the lake grew, and the old river bed dried up (instant clay deposits).
> Eventually the water found new exits from the mountains and now there are at least two rivers exiting the lake, one of which is still trying to cut a new channel, thus creating your swamp to the west (?). Now as the lake grew the city found that it had to move higher up the mountain, and was running out of room. So someone sheared the top of one peak, leaving a vast flat region, upon which the city grew. Now of course the water level of the lake is almost even with the ground, or maybe even slightly higher.
> The "islands" in the lake are really the old mountain tops of some of the smaller peaks within the mountain range._




Actually, this is *why* I asked for a re-write of the geography section.  The map Grey Dwarf came up with and the written text didn't match, in my mind.

Obviously, I didn't describe my concerns well enough.  Sorry for any confusion this may caused for you TGD.

Cheers!

KF72


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

NP, KnightFall, I'll write something else. Anyway, it was more history than geography.

It might be a good idea to remove the text from the summary before people get used to it and take it for granted (people like me  ).

I'll be back!


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Conaill said:
			
		

> *By the way, here are some excellent links to medieval city maps, for your entertainment and inspiration...
> Historic Cities: Maps & Documents: dozens of city maps, from Aachen to Zurich, and from the 15th century to the 18th.
> Dutch City maps from Blaeu's Toonneel der Steden: excellent quality, aerial-view city maps from the 1600's. Lots of water, lots of military reinforcements. *




There are even maps of the city where I live (ie Namur).
Great! You can even see the citadel where the river parts (NE corner)


----------



## Conaill

Hey, another Belgian! Hadn't even noticed before. 

You cheat, you based the Mor's End map on Namur, didn't ya?  Rotated 180 degrees, but you can't deny the resemblance...

Here's another somewhat relevant map...

Paris, 1572: Note the central island which makes for a perfect spot to cross the river. You can still clearly see the original trade route (probably a Roman road, actually) cutting straight through the city left to right. By this point the city has expanded well beyond its medieval city wall and they've dug a protective canal around the new city boundaries. Note the difference in size between both sides of the city: The Seine is friggin _wide_, and there isn't really any other way to cross the river than through the island.


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Hey, another Belgian! Hadn't even noticed before.
> *




What do you mean, "another Belgian"?
Did you flee to tax heaven?


----------



## Conaill

The Grey Dwarf said:
			
		

> *What do you mean, "another Belgian"?
> Did you flee to tax heaven? *




Nah, just an academic in exile.  "Tax heaven" heh... that doesn't stop americans complaining about taxes more than just about any other nationality. From the sound of it, you would think that the US tax rate is about as high as in Sweden! 

Now, "car heaven" or "gasoline heaven", _that_'s more like it... But we digress...


----------



## Krug

Sorry to hear that Gray Dwarf. My condolences.  Thanks for all the work put in.


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Krug said:
			
		

> *Sorry to hear that Gray Dwarf. My condolences.  Thanks for all the work put in. *



Thanks Krug, I appreciate.
My uncle last week, my wife's grandmother this week. I just hope that will be the last for a long long time.
Well, working with you keeps my mind out of it (sort of).

I've started working on the autocad version of the map. It might take a couple of days to get something out of it though.


----------



## Buttercup

Grey Dwarf, sorry to hear about the new sad news.  You've had a rough time lately.

We're thinking of you.


----------



## Knightfall

My condolences as well Grey Dwarf.  Losing someone is never easy.

Chin up, dude.

KF72


----------



## wizardoftheplains

Greydwarf,  take care of yourself and your family.
My thoughts are with you.
gary


----------



## Jolly Giant

My condolances, Grey Dwarf...


----------



## Tallow

*Cattle Ranches*

After reading through all the information in all these threads, I've noticed a strange lack of something important.

One of the resources mentioned in all these threads, is cattle.

If Mor's End is to provide Cattle as an export, where are the cattle ranches?

Andy Christian


----------



## Lalato

*Re: Cattle Ranches*

Grey Dwarf...  my prayers are with you and your family today.  




			
				Tallow said:
			
		

> *After reading through all the information in all these threads, I've noticed a strange lack of something important.
> 
> One of the resources mentioned in all these threads, is cattle.
> 
> If Mor's End is to provide Cattle as an export, where are the cattle ranches?
> 
> Andy Christian *




Tallow...  I would say that the main cattle ranching area is in the highlands northwest and northeast of the city.  There is currently some farm land just north of the city... some that land could also be used for cattle ranching.  We're talking about very large sheep here... not necessarily cows.

--sam


----------



## Tallow

*Re: Re: Cattle Ranches*



			
				lalato said:
			
		

> *Grey Dwarf...  my prayers are with you and your family today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tallow...  I would say that the main cattle ranching area is in the highlands northwest and northeast of the city.  There is currently some farm land just north of the city... some that land could also be used for cattle ranching.  We're talking about very large sheep here... not necessarily cows.
> 
> --sam *





Hmm... Interesting.  I suppose any hooved livestock could be considered cattle... but cattle almost ALWAYS refers to cows.  Is there a thread somewhere that indicates we are talking large sheep rather than cows?  I was planning on submitting a few ideas on the ranches, but I would like to read all the information that's already been developed first.

Location would be a primary concern right now as well.

Andy Christian


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

First I'd like to thank you all for your support. I really appreciate.

The city is surrounded by grasslands, anything could graze there: cows, sheep, reindeer, buffalos, horses, ... The farmland to the north is too good for them and is dedicated to crops.
Some pig farms should also be placed around the city but not too far.

Huge sheep rule!


----------



## Wippit Guud

Hmmm...

Dire Sheep?


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Wippit Guud said:
			
		

> *Hmmm...
> Dire Sheep? *



Go on ... stat them.
They can grow up to 5 feet tall.
Info on the original can be found here.


----------



## Knightfall

The Grey Dwarf said:
			
		

> *The city is surrounded by grasslands, anything could graze there: cows, sheep, reindeer, buffalos, horses, ... The farmland to the north is too good for them and is dedicated to crops.
> Some pig farms should also be placed around the city but not too far.
> 
> Huge sheep rule! *




I like the big horn sheep idea, less traditional than cattle.  And since there seems to be some need for more options that simply cattle, I've changed 'cattle' to 'ranching' in the summary.

And you want the pig farms close to the city, but not to close.


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *
> I like the big horn sheep idea, less traditional than cattle.  And since there seems to be some need for more options that simply cattle, I've changed 'cattle' to 'ranching' in the summary.
> And you want the pig farms close to the city, but not to close.   *



I don't remember who had the idea for sheep though. It will come back to me one day.  

As for the pigs, they're an alternate sewage system. So not too far from the city but far from the high class estates. I'd say to the north-eastern side of the city.


----------



## Conaill

The Grey Dwarf said:
			
		

> *As for the pigs, they're an alternate sewage system. So not too far from the city but far from the high class estates. I'd say to the north-eastern side of the city. *




I get the impression that pigs produce more sewage than they consume!  How about combine both ideas and do *goats* instead of sheep and pigs? They'll eat just about anything. Some of the longhorned mountain goats are very similar to the kind of sheep you've been suggesting in size and build (some mountain goats are actually more closely related to sheep than goats!) With the watersilk we don't need the sheep's wool as much (but some species of goat can be shorn as well). And I think they may even be a better source for dairy than sheep as well.

Garbage disposal, source of meat and dairy all in one convenient package! 

Heck, if we feed them on the garbage heap behind the alchemist's workshop, maybe we can market a source of pre-dyed wool!


----------



## Lalato

The sheep was me.  I had been reading about Marco Polo Sheep (aka Argali) for a separate project... and thought they would fit nicely here.  

--sam


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Conaill said:
			
		

> *I get the impression that pigs produce more sewage than they consume!  How about combine both ideas and do goats instead of sheep and pigs? They'll eat just about anything. Some of the longhorned mountain goats are very similar to the kind of sheep you've been suggesting in size and build (some mountain goats are actually more closely related to sheep than goats!) With the watersilk we don't need the sheep's wool as much (but some species of goat can be shorn as well). And I think they may even be a better source for dairy than sheep as well.
> Garbage disposal, source of meat and dairy all in one convenient package!
> 
> Heck, if we feed them on the garbage heap behind the alchemist's workshop, maybe we can market a source of pre-dyed wool!  *



I think this decision belongs to Buttercup anyway. I just supply the grass.  

These goats would have quite a short lifespan and would be in need of constant therapy. They would be herded by the Guild of Goat Handlers (With Care).
You could have Surprise Goat for lunch (and Surprised Goat for supper).
Bards could include lines about lovers taking oaths to the sound of goats exploding in the distance.
Not only would the wool come pre-dryed but also in varied colours (often patchwork).


----------



## Buttercup

Since the decision belongs to me, according to Grey Dwarf, I'd say any sort of ranching is ok.  Sheep, pigs, goats and steak on the hoof.  Gotta have steak. 

As for goats, I see no reason why there might not be a few of these inside the city.  A family just wealthy enough to have a single-family dwelling, with a bit of yard, might well want a goat to dispose of refuse, and to provide milk.  A family wealthy enough to afford a few servants might have a few goats, and perhaps a dairy maid to milk them and even make cheese and butter.  (Can you make butter from goat's milk?  I assume so.  But since you don't hear about it, it probably tastes horrible.)  Then too, you can sheer them once a year and have some wool to use for knitting the family's socks.  Very efficient, goats.  Also they don't smell nearly as bad as pigs.


----------



## Tonguez

Gotta protest Pigs are NOT smelly and are in fact very clean animals. The problem is that humans keep them in muddy surroundings and feed them effluence (ie rotten food)

A pig raised on grass and grain might like to wallow a bit but does not stink.

Also Feta is Goat-milk cheese and Goats milk is better for those who are lactose intolerant (and can be given to babies whereas Cows milk is a really bad idea)

Also can we change Ranch to Farm - the idea of Ranchers is just to America specific for my mind to tolerate


----------



## Knightfall

Tonguez said:
			
		

> *Gotta protest Pigs are NOT smelly and are in fact very clean animals. The problem is that humans keep them in muddy surroundings and feed them effluence (ie rotten food)
> 
> A pig raised on grass and grain might like to wallow a bit but does not stink.
> 
> Also Feta is Goat-milk cheese and Goats milk is better for those who are lactose intolerant (and can be given to babies whereas Cows milk is a really bad idea)
> 
> Also can we change Ranch to Farm - the idea of Ranchers is just to America specific for my mind to tolerate *




Hmm, how about instead of farm or ranch we use the word stedding?  And under resources, we should refer to the products these steddings produce - foodstuff (grain, meat, etc.), wool, leather.

KF72

p.s.  I'll let people chime in before I change the summary.


----------



## David Argall

*ranch vs farm*

"can we change Ranch to Farm - the idea of Ranchers is just to America specific for my mind to tolerate"

    Cattle do call for rather large amouts of fairly flat land, and we have been talking about mountains and mining, so we have some conflict here.  Maybe goats would work better.

    However, wild west stories are only American because they had the publicity.  The Americans learned nearly everything about cowboys from Mexicans, and Argentina has a lot of cattle too.  Not to mention more ancient cultures.


----------



## Lalato

*Re: ranch vs farm*



			
				David Argall said:
			
		

> *"can we change Ranch to Farm - the idea of Ranchers is just to America specific for my mind to tolerate"
> 
> Cattle do call for rather large amouts of fairly flat land, and we have been talking about mountains and mining, so we have some conflict here.  Maybe goats would work better.
> 
> However, wild west stories are only American because they had the publicity.  The Americans learned nearly everything about cowboys from Mexicans, and Argentina has a lot of cattle too.  Not to mention more ancient cultures. *




David...
That's why I proposed the Argali sheep.  While there may be a few cows in the area, they most certainly would have been imported.

Argali sheep, in D&D terms, would be considered dire sheep.  In the real world, Argali sheep can grow up to 5 feet tall.  They live in the mountains of central asia (kirgyzstan to tibet).  They can be domesticated, but the majority live in the wild.  They can produce meat, milk (similar to goat's milk), wool (low quality), and the male's have magnificent horns.

As I posted in another thread...  I never imagined that there would be large ranches of these animals.  That just doesn't make sense.  The majority of the food in the medieval diet should be vegetable not meat.

Here is what we have identified so far for local food sources...

Meat:
Argali Sheep
Fish (most abundant meat)
small amounts of other common barnyard animals (chicken, pig, cow, etc.)

Vegetable/Grain:
Lake Kelp (tastes like spinach, and fairly abundant)
Swamp Pickles (very sweet, but hard to find)
Wheat farms just north of the city
Several small farms throughout Enheim

Assuming that the population of Enheim is about 30,000...  They can support the city of 10,000 as long as the food supply is constant... and the land is sometimes aided by magic.

That could provide an interesting plot hook.

--sam


----------



## Krug

The town's water tower.

Based on one located in Prague.


----------



## TGD@work

Some other views of the city:

A pigeon house


----------



## TGD@work

Cattle barn:


----------



## TGD@work

Typical shop:


----------



## TGD@work

Ye old bridge:


----------



## TGD@work

A marketplace:


----------



## Conaill

Nice pictures there, TGD!

"Ye old bridge" might work for one side of the island. Northern side, I'd say. But the other bridge has to be tall enough to let sailing ships pass under it. Maybe we can call it "Highbridge"? Highbridge would be built on a rocky outcropping on the south side of the river

PS: I've got a great idea for the second island, tying together some history, geography, NPCs and even my own guilds & organizations thread, but we'll need to remove the bridges connecting it to the mainland.

Here we go...

When the first settlers arrived in what would become Mor's End, they found some ancient ruins already there, aminly on the small island. (Every good fantasy city needs some _some_ kind of dark and ancient ruins, even if it's only 300-400 years old! Besides this could tie in nicely with the warren underneath the city and The Thing That Lurks Below.)

A reclusive elvish wizard settled on the small island, building his tower among the ruins there. (Or perhaps the wizard was already there? Elves live up to 750 years!) It is said that at night he digs down into the ruins, looking for knowledge of ancient civilizations. Others say he descends into hell and consorts with demons.

Nobody messes with the wizard though, and the wizard keeps to himself. The rare occasion that he is seen in the city, he barely says a word, and if he does it is with an air of cool disdain.

The wizard is the highest level mage in the city, and thus by seniority the head of the Mage's Guild, at least on paper. However he rarely if ever shows up at guild meetings, and it is really the second-highest level mage, an ambitious and power-hungry human who is the _de facto_ head of the Guild and who sits on the City Council.


What do you think? It provides for oodles of possible plot hooks: tie-in to the warrens/monster, ancient civilizations, only powerful elf in a city of humans and dwarves, could play an important role im Mage's Guild and City Council if he ever bothers to come out of seclusion, possibly the only link to Mor's End history, etc...

It also allows DM's to scale the magic level in the city: Low magic - the wizard is just a hermit and never shows himself, effectively lowers the highest level wizard in town; High Magic - the wizard is 15th-20th level and suddenly decides to take an interest in city affairs.

I also like the idea of somewhat reducing the number of bridges we have. Seems more realistic, looking at those medieval maps. Plus the bridges could form useful bottlenecks...


----------



## Conaill

Why doesn't the city grow towards the lake more? All the coastal medieval city maps I've seen, the city really becomes spread out against the coast because much of the empahsis is on fishing and the sea.

Perhaps the silk jellyfish can use their tentacles to catch prey off the shore? That would probably dissuade people from living right along the coast, but it would make harvesting more dangerous.

And why isn't there a bigger population on the "big island" between the two branches of the river? An earlier suggestion I had was that that's where the special clay is being mined. But it could also be some sort of "radioactive" area: leftover magical energy from an ancient battle? Maybe that's what made the clay special in the first place?

(crossposted from "open shop" thread)


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

I like the wizard idea. We'll have to find someone to make a good drawing of this. We can leave the plans to the DMs.

The city developed around the original ford. That's why it's far from the lake. As it's still a young city, it needs room to grow. There again, I think we'll leave that to the DMs. But I agree, the city will probably grow towards the lake.


----------



## Buttercup

Let's ask Knid Vermicious to create the Highbridge for us.  In fact, I think I'll go and direct him to this thread.

Knightfall, I like the word stedding.  It's more archaic than farm or ranch.


----------



## Krug

Yeap, and make it one hell of a bridge. This city needs some flourishes; the bacon bits on the cream.

Perhaps something like the Rialto? Yet quite original?

Also a Tower of Glazers, whose walls sparkle with different colours from Glazework


----------



## Conaill

Krug said:
			
		

> *Yeap, and make it one hell of a bridge.*




Keep in mind that Highbridge would be *old* though. We also have Newbridge, which crosse the _entire_ river further downstream.

Perhaps something very sturdy, dwarvish, roman looking for Highbridge, and a more modern, gothic one for Newbridge?

Hmm, for Newbridge, here's a nice picture of the Sunderland Bridge, a beautiful castiron arch that perhaps the dwarves might have been able to pull off:






Or a less ornate castiron bridge, which might be more appropriate for Mor's End time frame (_love_ the sailing ships in the previous picture though!):






One more for Newbridge. This one is castiron bridge proposal for London:






And this is along the lines of what I was thinking of for Highbridge (except with bigger, more "dwarvish" stone blocks):






Gad these suckers are big! My apologies to our non-US friends for the download time. If it's too much of a pain, let me know and I'll swap in the thumbnail pictures.


----------



## Krug

Wow all of them look great Conalli. We'll let Gray Dwarf decide.

BTW, I like the last one. Fits the concept. 'Highbridge'.


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Hello everyone.
Just dropping by to say I'm still there.
I've got huge connection problems atm but I'm working for the City project.

It isn't worth a Knid but here are some of the latest screenshots.


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Wider ...


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Lake and hills ...


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

The same without rendering ...


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

I'll get back to you asap on the subject of bridges but you have to consider that we're talking river boats and not high sea ships.

I've some carvings of fortified bridges that I have to scan so you can see what I mean.


----------



## Conaill

Nicely done, Grey Dwarf!

Just thinking... I'm not sure about that south road. It seems like it would be way too hard to cross the river upstream from Mor's End. Caravans going towards the area south of the lake would probably try to circle the swamps over land, rather than ferry across the hard way...

Any votes for making the "big island" smaller? Otherwise we're going to have to detail a lot of that as well: it would make the obvious location for fishing industry, harbor, etc.


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Nicely done, Grey Dwarf!
> Just thinking... I'm not sure about that south road. It seems like it would be way too hard to cross the river upstream from Mor's End. Caravans going towards the area south of the lake would probably try to circle the swamps over land, rather than ferry across the hard way...
> Any votes for making the "big island" smaller? Otherwise we're going to have to detail a lot of that as well: it would make the obvious location for fishing industry, harbor, etc. *



Thanks.  
Going around the swamp might have proven way too expensive in guards (dead) and merchandise (lost).
No detail is needed  for the big island at the moment IMO. Several farms and some hunters sheds are enough. The city is young, it needs room to grow and the island is the next step, once they have build a new palissade. You must leave something for the DMs.


----------



## Conaill

The Grey Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Going around the swamp might have proven way too expensive in guards (dead) and merchandise (lost).*



So how do you see them crossing the river at that point? Big cargo ferries? Wouldn't it be easier to move stuff by ship instead?



> *No detail is needed  for the big island at the moment IMO. Several farms and some hunters sheds are enough. The city is young, it needs room to grow and the island is the next step, once they have build a new palissade.*



I worry about it because logically there should be way more people living much closer to the lake, given the current geography. Except that opens up a whole other can of worms which I'm sure we don't want to tackle with. It would be better if Mor's End were closer to the lake itself. Otherwise I feel we need to come up with a reason why the city hasn't expanded into that direction instead. (e.g. because that's where the clay beds are)


----------



## jdavis

Conaill said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I worry about it because logically there should be way more people living much closer to the lake, given the current geography. Except that opens up a whole other can of worms which I'm sure we don't want to tackle with. It would be better if Mor's End were closer to the lake itself. Otherwise I feel we need to come up with a reason why the city hasn't expanded into that direction instead. (e.g. because that's where the clay beds are) *




Maybe the silk fish harvesters have their harvest pools on the lake shore there and try to discourage city growth in that direction.


----------



## Conaill

Does anyone here own (or know someone who owns) Campaign Cartographer 2 from ProFantasy? It has a City Designer add-on, which seems exactly what we need.

Autocad is all cool and groovy, but for a publisheable quality streetmap a tool like this seems indispensible. It'll even do random street layouts. MMS suggests ~3500 buildings for a city of this city... I'm sure Grey Dwarf wouldn't want to enter all of those by hand!

Unfortunately, CC2 doesn't come for free, so we would need to find someone who has it _and_ is willing to volunteer some time...

Edit: There's also the free Autorealm package.


----------



## jdavis

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Does anyone here own (or know someone who owns) Campaign Cartographer 2 from ProFantasy? It has a City Designer add-on, which seems exactly what we need.
> 
> Autocad is all cool and groovy, but for a publisheable quality streetmap a tool like this seems indispensible. It'll even do random street layouts. MMS suggests ~3500 buildings for a city of this city... I'm sure Grey Dwarf wouldn't want to enter all of those by hand!
> 
> Unfortunately, CC2 doesn't come for free, so we would need to find someone who has it and is willing to volunteer some time...
> 
> Edit: There's also the free Autorealm package. *




The autocad work looks amazing, but I agree for a steetmap CC 2 is very good. I love the autocad look so far it's like a aerial view, perhaps after the cad work is done somebody could do a top down map showing where the shops from the craft thread are located.


----------



## TGD@work

jdavis said:
			
		

> *The autocad work looks amazing, but I agree for a steetmap CC 2 is very good. I love the autocad look so far it's like a aerial view, perhaps after the cad work is done somebody could do a top down map showing where the shops from the craft thread are located. *




That was the general idea but I don't have CC2 and haven't found any good free application (so far). I'll have a look at AutoRealm (if possible)

Also it seems my computer problems @home are there to stay. I need a backup for this ministership. If said problems persist too long that person might need to take over from me.
Any volunteers? (approval by Krug required)


----------



## TGD@work

Ok, I had the time to do a quick try of AutoRealm.
The app seems ok, if libraries follow, it will be a great app.
Here's a quick draft of the general map.


----------



## Conaill

Looks pretty nice, TGD! How well does it do at drawing street plans?

PS: I _still_ think the main trade route should go south of the river downstream of Mor's End. Otherwise there's not much reason for that important river crossing the city grew around...


----------



## jdavis

TGD@work said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That was the general idea but I don't have CC2 and haven't found any good free application (so far). I'll have a look at AutoRealm (if possible)
> 
> Also it seems my computer problems @home are there to stay. I need a backup for this ministership. If said problems persist too long that person might need to take over from me.
> Any volunteers? (approval by Krug required) *




Maybe somebody should post over in the art gallery forum to see if anybody over there can help. Maybe a assistant mapmaking minister.


----------



## Lalato

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Looks pretty nice, TGD! How well does it do at drawing street plans?
> 
> PS: I still think the main trade route should go south of the river downstream of Mor's End. Otherwise there's not much reason for that important river crossing the city grew around... *




I think this could be explained if there is no way to go around the lake so that a river crossing is necessary somewhere along the Mor river.  I suggest that the other end of the lake is basically blocked by the Kul Moren mountain range.  Here is an image of what I mean  (sorry... it was done in Paint)

--sam


----------



## Conaill

How about this instead...

It makes the swamp area larger, which I think makes more sense (the whole SE edge of the lake may be swampland, which provides for plenty of nasties which can form a threat to Mor's End and Kul Moren), it incorporates the ship trade (we _did_ say Mor's End has a lot of ships passing through as well, right?), and it makes Mor's End an important river crossing on the North-to-East trade route.


----------



## TGD@work

Conaill said:
			
		

> *How about this instead...
> It makes the swamp area larger, which I think makes more sense (the whole SE edge of the lake may be swampland, which provides for plenty of nasties which can form a threat to Mor's End and Kul Moren), it incorporates the ship trade (we did say Mor's End has a lot of ships passing through as well, right?), and it makes Mor's End an important river crossing on the North-to-East trade route. *



You still need a road south along the lake for those who cannot afford the price of ship passage.
If everybody agrees, I'll add it to Conaill's drawing (Connali for Krug ) and mark it as alpha version. I'll also extend the drawing to the west to accomodate for some of Lalato's requests.


----------



## Conaill

TGD@work said:
			
		

> *
> You still need a road south along the lake for those who cannot afford the price of ship passage.*




Not really. Passage on a ship sailing across the lake should be fairly cheap. And if you *really* need to, you could always go around the northern end. 

If there's that many nasties in the swamp and south of the lake, there will not be much of a trade route going through. There will probably be a small road/trail, but it would be highly dangerous and pass through the swamp.

Edit: let's see... Krug... Kurg? Nah, too subtle. Gurk sounds good, or maybe Urgk?


----------



## jdavis

perhaps a raised causway where the tall vegitation is kept cleared back away from the road. It would be a uncomfortable and dangerous trip through the swamp but cheaper than a boat (free is always cheaper than paying). Having boats also means that a village is going to sprout up on that side of the lake, where the barges would be loaded.


----------



## Buttercup

*Yo!  Grey Dwarf!*

Knid Vermicious is asking some technical questions with regard to Highbridge that I can't answer.  Cliff heights and so forth.  Would you like to help him out?  His thread is in the Art forum, and is called Fantasy Architecture.

Thanks!


----------



## Conaill

Already posted some more details on the bridges. Feel free to correct me if I strayed from the True and Righteous Path of Mor's End though...

Did we ever decide on a definitive scale for the map? We should be able to give Knid some numbers for the length of the bridge spans, the size of Citadel Island, etc.


----------



## Lalato

I agree with Grey Dwarf...  a southern road is necessary.  Here's why...  

I have a caravan with a 100 pack animals, 50 carts, and 200 people.  Which route would I take to Mor's End...  The new boat route which will separate my cargo into several ships?  I don't know those ship masters.  What if they're untrustworthy.  What if someone else tries to steal my stuff.  My caravan isn't designed for this sort of travel.  I could, instead, take the common route that has been in place for several hundred years.  Sure it's a little dangerous, but that's why I have guards.  

If I really want to avoid danger... I could take the old southern route that skirts between the mountains and deserts further south, but it would add nearly a week to my journey... and I'm not fond of the heat spoiling my goods.  Besides, the river crossings further up the Mor river can prove disastrous to even the best caravan masters.  This route through Enheim has truly been a godsend.  

--sam


----------



## Conaill

"Frontier", remember? So far we have Kul Moren in the north, the river heading ENE and trade routes to the east. That would put the actual frontier off to the southwest. We don't _have_ have enormous caravans coming from that direction. 

Besides, if I were that caravan owner, I would _gladly_ pick a short, safe trip across the lake over slogging my way through the swamp, across a causeway that is in poor repair and in some places nonexistant, with goblin raiders jumping out every mudpit....

So there!


----------



## Lalato

Caravans coming back from the southwest can be just as laden with goods as ones that are heading southwest.  It's not a one way trip.. and a good caravan master won't make the trip back empty handed.  

Still...  I'm not saying that boat service won't be available...  just that not everyone would use it.  

Here are some questions a typical caravan master might have...

Who provides the boat service?  
Who provides protection on the boats?  
What about Lake Pirates?  
How big are these boats?  
Is there insurance if one of the boats sink?  

This isn't a simple ferry crossing.  It's a 100+ mile trek.  A lot could happen.

I'm just playing devil's advocate.  I think both types of transport could easily co-exist...  

--sam


----------



## Conaill

Here's a little sketch of the bridges crossing the river at the Citadel:


----------



## jdavis

lalato said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm just playing devil's advocate.  I think both types of transport could easily co-exist...
> 
> --sam *




Call them Plot hook "cheap route" and plot hook "safe route"

Plot Hook "cheap route"
The adventurers decide to help a poor pilgrims coming up the swamp road. They can't afford the ferries at (Ferry Landing?) and are forced to take the swamp road. What dangers will the adventurers face?

Plot Hook "Safe route"
The adventurers are hired to find out why barges are disappearing on the lake, the ferry masters are loosing money as more and more caravans take the route with known dangers as opposed to the route with unknown ones. Can the adventurers figure out who is trying to put the ferry masters out of buisness and why?

Double the routes and you double the plot hooks.


----------



## TGD@work

Sorry for the delay. 

So, here's the generic map modified according to the latest requests, I think.

I'll try to post a closeup from the city from home tonight. Otherwise I'll have to send it to my office to post it tomorrow noon (CET).


----------



## Lalato

Grey Dwarf...  I like it...  Keep up the good work...  

The mountains come all the way down to the lake forcing a river crossing at Mor's End.  No one has been able to find a safe route through the mountains.  The yakmen ferociously guard the few passes that exist.  And even those passes aren't wide enough for most caravans.

--sam


----------



## Krug

lalato said:
			
		

> *Grey Dwarf...  I like it...  Keep up the good work...
> 
> The mountains come all the way down to the lake forcing a river crossing at Mor's End.  No one has been able to find a safe route through the mountains.  The yakmen ferociously guard the few passes that exist.  And even those passes aren't wide enough for most caravans.
> 
> --sam *




By the way, who came up with Entropy Swamp? Doesn't quite work for me...

Perhaps something that doesn't use En or Mor. Lets not overdo it.


----------



## Lalato

I came up with a few names in another post... my favorite was...

Soggy Bottoms Swamp...  

I don't why...  I just like it...  It seems like something the Squatters would call the swamp...

"I was in the Soggy Bottoms today fetching pickles... but I only came back with a few.  I heard orcs so I high-tailed it out of there."

--sam


----------



## Krug

Yes, I think the Squats would call it that. I'm sure they would have their whole slang... but not the official name. Sogath's Swamp? Perhaps derived from name of an ancient Goblin King?


----------



## Lalato

Yes... but would the city recognize a goblin as "owning" the swamp.  Wouldn't they city call it something completely different...

I agree that Soggy Bottoms is a bit slangy and tongue in cheek...  I still like it... 

Here are a few to play around with...
Festering Fen
Boiling Bog
Beastly Bog
Dire Mire
The Dark Moor

What if the swamps used to be part of the network of underground warrens...  but long ago... long before the dwarves came...  the warrens south of the lake/river collapsed and that's why there is a swamp in such an unlikely place.  Evidence of this can be found in the ruins that appear to lead down into dark watery depths... 

--sam


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Entropy was just a working name. It dates back from an old post.
I forgot to remove it, sorry.

The Land of Shadows maybe? Due to a permanent mist covering the place. Or The Drowned Land, quite straightforward, IMO.

More ideas, please ...


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Here's the closeup promised earlier.

There are three marketplaces:
 - Food in the halfling/gnome area (SO).
 - Goods Along the main road (N).
 - Black Market near the Squats (SE)
The small isle is now isolated from the rest of the city.

Your comments please, before I start working on the districts ...


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Here are the districts (draft, of course...)


----------



## Knightfall

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Does anyone here own (or know someone who owns) Campaign Cartographer 2 from ProFantasy? It has a City Designer add-on, which seems exactly what we need.*




I have both Campaign Cartographer 2 and City Designer 2.  I can give it a shot but will need some guidance as to what the ministers want.  (Also remember that I have HUGE pain issues).

Cheers!

KF72

p.s.  BTW, check out my Cartography thread (see sig) for a version of the region around Mor's End for my World of Kulan campaign setting.  It's not the final draft, BTW.


----------



## Knightfall

*Mor's End City Draft*

Ok, I used TGD's map above as my guide to do this in CC2, using CD2.

{EDIT}

Need to change the tower layout a little, it doesn't look right.


----------



## Knightfall

*Mor's End Redux*

And here we go...


----------



## Knightfall

*Updated Version*

Ok, I took the map to then next level but figured I should post it as it stands before going any further.

What does everyone think?

Cheers!

KF72


----------



## TGD@work

*Re: Updated Version*



			
				Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Ok, I took the map to then next level but figured I should post it as it stands before going any further.
> What does everyone think?
> Cheers!
> KF72 *




Great ! 
If you agree, we'll work from your map from now on.
I'll rework my districts draft from there.
Do you want to be my backup as Minister of Geography ?


----------



## Conaill

Great work, both of you!

Couple of thoughts...

- we probably need a gate on the NE or E side of the city, even if only a small one. There's probably a minor road following the north side of the river, and we need a way to send sorties in that direction as well.

- Make the small island at most half as big. Other wise it's a bit too much of "prime real estate" to leave to a single mage.

- The Squats shouldn't be split up across the river, because it wouldn't have a unified identity. There might be a slum on the north side of the river, but then it should have its own name. I had put some industrial stuf there. Would be an especially appropriate site for tanners, alchemists, etc: lots of need for water, but smelly and polluting.

- Seems like the whole set of bridges got rearranged! Newbridge is gone, and there's now a bridge (instead of the ferry) between Port Jollita and the docks. I prefer the original arrangement, as in my closeup on the page 2. The crossing on the south end makes more sense if it's a ferry: it's between two naval centers, it has to let not only river barges but also the larger lake ships pass, and it would be a longer span to cross than on the east side of the city. On the other hand, Newbridge would be major feat of dwarven engineering, and would probably be closer to their part of town. Downstream (i.e. _East_!) of the Citadel river crossing would make most sense.

- The southern gate and trade route would probably be as far away as possible from the dangerous swamp.

- The southern marketplace should not be smack in the _middle_ of the Squats. There's nothing of value there! Instead, it would be closer to the harbor and the traderoute. 

- Road crossing the Citadel island needs to go _through_ the Citadel. The Citadel started out as a reinforced toll gate on the river crossing...

Sorry for the nagging....

Gah! I tried to edit Knightfall's map a little on my dinky laptop at home, but good ol' Paint made it a bitmap file and messed up the colors. Yuck. It's waaaay to late for me now anyway. I'll see if I can send out a better pic tomorow from work. Meanwhile, have another look at the closeup on top of page 2.


----------



## Conaill

Ok, here's my doctored version of Knightfall's beautiful streetplan. The black outlined area next to the marketplace in the SE is the Grand Bazaar, a semi-permanent, semi-indoor market where you can buy just about *anything*, legal or otherwise. The Grand Bazaar gradually peters out into a network of hundreds of little streets, which turns into the Squats further East.


----------



## Knightfall

*Bridge Placement?*

Ok, just to let you all know - it's very simple to modify things in CC2 but will become harder to change as more feature are added.  Thus, if no one objects then how about using the following layout for the bridges:


----------



## Conaill

Hah! beat me to it...  See my updated pic above yours.

You bridge labels are a little off. What you call Quaybridge is Highbridge, and what you call Highbridge is Newbridge.

Note that I also changed the width of some of the roads. The main trade route (and thus widest road goes across Oldbridge and Highbridge (called Quaybridge on your latest map), and has only recently been bypassed by Newbridge in the East. Port Jollita probably wouldn't have any roads quite as big as that, and the only large roads on the SE side of the river would be trade road, forking towards Highbridge and Newbridge. The roads leading out of the NE and SW city gates are probably minor (in comparison with the main trade route anyway), as is the one heading S from the SE gate.

I also shortened the span for Highbridge a little (extended the SE end of the city towards the Citadel), and widened river mouth a little where the southern bridge used to be on your map. 

If this makes it easier, here's a little difference map between my version and your old one:


----------



## Knightfall

*Mor's End - Version Three*

Ok, moved the labels around, as well as naming the different gates and adding a gate in the north.  Both Northgate and Eastgate are smaller than the other gates.  I also added district roads.  The main roads are now 18 feet wide while most of the secondary roads are 10 feet wide (roughly).

Traders' Way (known as Traders' Road outside of the city) comes through Tradegate then goes north over Newbridge and then west to Westgate.

_I forgot to label the different markets but that's ok.  I'll do that during the next update._

The small island dedicated to the mysterious wizard of Mor's End is named Mage's Roost, which I thought sounded cool.

Also, are all the bridges made of stone?

Anyway, opinions please.

KF72


----------



## Knightfall

*Mage's Roost - closeup*


----------



## Lalato

KF... that's some nice work...

Here's some stuff to work on...
I think the caravans would be heading East...  not West...  so EastGate would be larger than WestGate.

As for the bridges...  I like the idea that they are not all stone.  I know New Bridge is definitely stone (designed by dwarves)

Here's a breakdown...
New Bridge - stone
High Bridge - wood and stone
Old Bridge - wood and stone
Jollita Bridge - wood

I think the road from the Jollita Bridge should go around the building instead of through it...  That way you can close off part of the building from the roads.

--sam


----------



## Conaill

Cool! Staring to look better and better, Knightfall! 

Oldbridge and Highbridge are the oldest bridges in the city, and thus definitely made of solid dwarven stone. Newbridge is fairly new and made of cast iron, a marvel of modern dwarven engineering. (Newbridge should also be the longest bridge in town, only a little shorter than Oldbridge and Highbridge combined. Any chance of narrowing the river a little at Highbridge?) The other bridges... don't know. Probably stone, I would guess. We don't want to stray *too* far from the medieval city. One cast iron bridge is plenty. Depending on where we place the Glazers, one of the bridges may even be glazed clay bricks, but I don't think we need to go into that kind of detail right now.

I would still move Tradegate further East, but I'll leave that up to you. Dunno how hard it would be to change at this time. (Moves the trade route farther away from the dangerous swamp, and allows us to connect the Squats with the Squats-beyond-the-Wall further downstream.)

Knightfall, how hard would it be to randomly populate these streets with buildings? Is CD2 up to something like that? Or would you need to do lots of work by hand for each individual street? We don't really _need_ to draw in the buildings (all 5000 of them! ), just curious how powerful this feature is...

The scale in the bottom right is rather hard to read. I'm still wondering exactly how large things are on this map, which is going to become more and more important as we add more detail.

Here's a closeup of how I see Citadel Island. It grew out of the toll gate straddling the trade route in between the two bridges. Then a keep got built next to the toll gate (that's the actual Citadel), and the NE part of the island got split lengthwise into two courtyards where trading caravans can gather before crossing the toll gate. The keep grows as more administrative offices get added, and eventually the entire island gets a curtain wall. I've drawn in a parade ground for official celebrations and jousts etc. There will also be barracks, stables, other administrative buildings etc., none of which I've drawn in yet.


----------



## Lalato

I'd say the glazers are over by Port Jollita...  if we're still saying that the big island is the source of the clay...

--sam


----------



## Conaill

Heh, lalato beat me to it. 

You're right, we should have some more wood in the bridges. Definitely Jollita Bridge. Oldbridge possibly as well (wood and stone = wooden deck on stone supports?), but I was thinking more along the lines of "Ye old bridge" that TGD posted on the previous page.

Also check out some of the cast iron bridges on that page for Newbridge. Some of them are obvioulsy too grandiose for the time period we're aiming for, but the dwarves _are_ mining iron ore in the vicinity...

Keep in mind that Knid Vermicious over on the Art Gallery forum may be doing some drawings of the three major bridges. We probably shouldn't tie our hands too much until we see what he comes up with...

PS: What's the name of the Westernmost bridge? Little hard to read in that font.


----------



## jdavis

Flashing back to the area map. Should the East Trade route be north of the river not south of the river (still in the swamp). If the town is supposed to be a major river crossing then shouldn't the trade route cross the river? Westgate would lead to the Dwarves in the North, Southgate and Trade Gate lead to the swamps and the western trade route, shouldn't the Eastern Trade route go out East Gate? The way it's set up now a caravan doesn't even have to enter the city or cross the river here at all. Crossing the river here and then going East just makes more sense.


----------



## Conaill

That's exactly why we _changed_ the Eastern trade route to be South of the river: The main trade route comes from Kul Moren and parts West of Lalaton (not drawn in yet, but probably should be), enters the city at Westgate, crosses the river at the Citadel or Newbridge, exits from the Tradegate, and continues south of the river towards the East.

The road crossing the swamp is a minor road and highly dangerous. Most trade from that direction would probably come via boat across the lake. Likewise, most trade going Northeast is via river barges because of difficult terrain (we should probably make the river curve upwards a little more, and draw in some terrain  around it). The road coming out of Eastgate is a minor road.


----------



## jdavis

So the main route is North-West to South-East not South-West to East? I saw the North-West route went to Kul Moren in the mountains and stopped, it goes beyond there then? My perception of what was the main trade route was off, I thought it went from below the lake to the city and then went East or North-East. I thought the North-West Road just led to Lalaton and Kul Moren and stopped.


----------



## Conaill

How about this. I removed some of the mountains on the North side of the lake (don't really know why those were there in the first place...), extended the trade route there, added some mountains so Kul Moren can't just go straight East, and made the river go a little more NE. Does that make it more clear?

Having the main trade route going straight through the swamp doesn't make much sense. That's where our highest concentration of nasties is right now. That's why I had been arguing all along that there shouldn't even _be_ a road on the South side of the lake. (I've since agreed that having a small road would be really cool if only for plot reasons. )


----------



## Conaill

Oops... forgot the picture:


----------



## Lalato

If the mountains don't extend down on at least one side... the need for a river crossing is eliminated.

Either way is fine with me...  as long as Mor's End is necessary as a river crossing.

Personally I prefer the other way.  Caravans are forced to use Mor's End to cross the river...  they can either use the boats to get to the other side of the lake or they can take the treaherous swamp road.  

Your way eliminates too much of the danger for the caravans...  in my opinion.

I think the trade route should come from the North East... cross the river and head South West. 

--sam


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

Districts reviewed.
Changed one or two roads, sorry.
I didn't use the latest version of the map but KF72 will have to do it in CC2 anyway, so I don't think it's a problem.
Thanks again for the help.


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

lalato said:
			
		

> *I think the trade route should come from the North East... cross the river and head South West.
> --sam *



IMO one trade route comes from the NW and one from Kul Moren.
They split in Mor's End, one going to the SE and one to the SW (road or ships). The intersection of two major trade routes is good for business.


----------



## Lalato

If the trade route comes from the NW it doesn't need to cross the river at Mor's End... they can simply go around the lake...  Heck they could circumvent everything just by going further south around the swamp.

There would never have been a need to cross the river... and therefore no need for Mor's End.

--sam


----------



## Conaill

TGD: Yeah, that's more or less what I had in mind. Except I was thinking more along the lines of a West-East axis (including Kul Moren, Lalaton and parts further West), and a SW-NE axis (mainly lake and river traffic).

TGD, you ok with extending the trade route through Lalaton then?

Districts: The Posh district would probably be integrated with the Commerce district around the central market place, since that's where a lot of the money comes from. Maybe switch "Temples" and "Rich"? Not sure we need an actual Temple District. They're probably competing with each other any way, so they would be spread around town.

There may be some smaller docks along the river just below where you have "Temples" now. Probably started out as a dock area, But since the halflings put Jollita Bridge in place, it's now only accessible for the smallest ships, and being turned in to a pictoresque "harbor view" area for the rich. Maybe call it "the Old Harbor"? Port Jollita should also have some small docks of course (East of Jollita Bridge).


----------



## Conaill

lalato said:
			
		

> *If the trade route comes from the NW it doesn't need to cross the river at Mor's End... they can simply go around the lake...  Heck they could circumvent everything just by going further south around the swamp.*




Trade comes from W/NW and heads E/SE. The river flows to the NE, so there needs to be a crossing at Mor's End.

Trade coming from SW can either go by ship across the lake (safer), or across the causeway through the swamp (dangerous, and can't carry too much weight). It then continues via the river to the NE (or via the roads to Kul Moren or to the East). You're right that there wouldn't be too much reason for trade from the SW going to the NW to pass through Mor's End, but there's plenty of other trade crisscrossing there.


----------



## Lalato

My post says NW not SW...

Based on your map...  if trade is coming from the NW... there is no need for a river crossing.

Trade from NW can go around the lake... and never cross the river.  Therefore... there is no need to go through Mor's End.

That's why the mountains should block the west side of the lake.  Trade should then come from the NE... and travel SW and SE once it crosses the river.

The option for boat travel is made available for those traveling SW if they would prefer to avoid the swamps...

--sam


----------



## Conaill

lalato said:
			
		

> *Based on your map...  if trade is coming from the NW... there is no need for a river crossing.  How can you possibly not see this.
> 
> Trade from NW can go around the lake... and never cross the river.  Therefore... there is no need to go through Mor's End.*




Trade from NW _to where_?

I don't get it. Trade coming from the NW, wanting to go to the E/SE. River flows NE. Time for a little drawing perhaps:


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

And the second route ...


----------



## Knightfall

*Mor's End - Version 4*

Ok, here's the latest version of the map.

The westernmost bridge was named Poshbridge but I renamed it Westbridge.

Here is the key for the numbered text:

1.  High Market
2.  Low Market
3.  Jollita Square
4.  The Citadel
5.  Mage's Roost

Opinions?

KF72


----------



## Conaill

Looking great!  Could we have the scale bar a little larger, please? I have no idea if my layout for the Citadel even makes sense given the distances involved...

PS: how do you feel about my other suggestions in the post with the Citadel closeup? (small changes to the coastline at Highbridge and the ferry, and shifting Tradegate East)


----------



## Lalato

Ok... here is your image edited to show how caravans could completely circumvent Mor's End...


----------



## Conaill

That looks like several hundred miles extra in some cases. I believe the lake is a couple hundred miles long, right? You can *always* circumvent an obstacle. But if the lake and river goes SW-NE, it would primarily be an obstacle for trade going NW-SE.

Besides, who's to say those other routes are even feasible? The Northern one seems like it would have to pass through or even North of the mountains Kul Moren is in. The long way around the lake... that's hundreds of miles from our little piece of the world. Who knows what kind of dangers are out there, if Mor's End counts as the "frontier"


----------



## Lalato

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.  

NE to SW route forces a river crossing if the mountains block the west side of the lake.  This forces caravans to cross at Mor's End whether they are going SW or SE.

Or they could go around the mountains...  The caravans however cannot go around Mor's End to the South...   They have to go through Mor's End... or go around the mountains...  at least one of the options is Mor's End...

If the caravans come from the NW...  they have three options for avoiding Mor's End...  Go around the mountains (if they don't need to cross the river)  go around the lake (if they need to cross the river)... or just keep driving past Mor's End (if they don't need to cross the river)...  Sure... they could go through Mor's End... but it wouldn't be necessary.

And if Mor's End isn't necessary for a river crossing...  then why did it become a city in the first place?


----------



## Conaill

lalato said:
			
		

> *NE to SW route forces a river crossing if the mountains block the west side of the lake.  This forces caravans to cross at Mor's End whether they are going SW or SE. *



That puts the trade route paralell with the river though. That means they could cross anywhere along the river. Plus, as you mentioned, they could still go around the mountains as well. For that matter, they could loop South around the swamp too... Just goes to prove that you can always circumvent any obstacle, provided you're willing to go far enough out of your way.

Besides, we already wanted to have the river itself as a trade route, so for a real trade "hub", we also needed one that crosses it more or less perpendicular. North to South would have been the obvious candidate in the original layout (with the river going straight East), but someone put that damn swamp in the way. 

Anyway, we'll leave it up to TGD to hash this out, he _is_ Geography minister after all! (And besides, he seems to agree with me... all the more reason to support his authority )


----------



## Lalato

They wouldn't cross the river... if it is wider or more dangerous downstream...  And... at least it requires a river crossing at some point... why not at Mor's End...  The other way doesn't require a river crossing at all.

So HA... and Double HA!!!  

--sam


----------



## Knightfall

*post deleted*

post deleted


----------



## jdavis

Me and my big mouth, well I am only moderatly less confused than before. I would prefer to see a North/South route comming to the city and then it splitting in the city to go either South East or South West. Mention was made of larger Kingdoms tot he North and I envisioned North to North East for those Kingdoms (on the Eastern side of the Mountains) I am assuming that the river flows to the east to a coast line somewhere and that coastlines are normally more civilized, so I was figuring the West for the Frontier. That would give a North/South traffic flow, make going southwest (towards the wild frontier) more dangerous and going southeast (back towards the coast) the Main road for North South Traffic, it forces a river crossing at Mor's End, going southeast bypasses the worst of the swamp and going southwest would be the road to the wild frontier and should be more dangerous. This would form a inverted Y with More's end at the center (and a road running to Kul Moren as a lesser route). Of course this is just what I was envisioning in my head. The X shape puts civilization on 3 of the four corners of the city and really takes away from the frontier feel, not to mention the town would be much much older and more important, it would be at the center of all the trade on this section of the continent. The inverted Y makes everything East of the lake and the mountains civilization and everything west of the mountains frontier and forces anybody moving west to go through Mor's End, thus it would be a newer city based on the expansion of the frontier westward. Maybe it's just my crazy American sense of direction kicking in but I just see the west as the wild frontier and the east as the old civilization. 

I'll just wait for the official map as I am behind on this converation anyway and I think I covered what I was seeing, I was just confused to what went where.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Docks & Squats (with scale)*

Ok, here's another closeup.  This one with a visible scale to get a better gudge of the city.  If it's two big then let me know.


----------



## GladiusNP

*Off-Topic*

Just wanted to say that those maps are very attractive, KnightFall.  I have the version of CC that came with the 2nd Edition core rules CD.  Is that what you are using, or is it the full version?


----------



## Knightfall

*Mor's End: Version Five*

Ok, the changes I've implemented to the city were brought about by an observation by someone who saw the first map on my personal CC2 thread.

He noted that the city was highly vulnurable to attack with the open waterways.  Thus I've included walls with a single tower built into the center to protect these vital access points.

Of course, it's still possible to take ships through as on each side of the central tower, as arches are built into the river walls.  Normally open, these arches can be protected by harbor chains and warding spells at a moments notice.

Westbridge has now be renamed Wallbridge.  I've also added an internal curtain wall for the city which divides & protects the higher end region.  The populace could retreat to either the citadel or the high quarter during an attack.  Not that poeple in the lower district would have a chance to make it in before the nobility forced the military to close the gates.

Speaking of gates, there are now four new internal city gates, not including the three gates built into Wallbridge.

{EDIT}

Walls and towers didn't look right.  Will post a reduxed version 5 in in a minute.


----------



## Knightfall

*Re: Off-Topic*



			
				GladiusNP said:
			
		

> *Just wanted to say that those maps are very attractive, KnightFall.  I have the version of CC that came with the 2nd Edition core rules CD.  Is that what you are using, or is it the full version? *




I dropped the coin for the full version, plus the city Designer 2 add-on.  Still don't have the Dungeon Designer 2 add-on but that's only because of my current injury situation (on unpaid disability).

Of course, if the Mor's End crew wants to splurg for my birthday coming up then I could do buildings, dungeons and the citadel towers too.  

KF72


----------



## Knightfall

*Version 5 Reduxed!*

Made the  inner wall asn it's gates more clear.  (At least to me anyway.)  BTW, what would the city's gates be made from?  Steel or reinforced wood?


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: High Market Area*

This map gives you a closer look and the environs around the High Market.  Note that the inner gates always stand open during the day, in order to allow for the flow of merchant caravans and the city's population from the High District to the other areas of Mor's End.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Jollita Square and Wallbridge*

Here's another closeup - this one clearly shows that Wallbridge is just that, a bridge built out of walls and towers for defense.  It is possible to sail under this bridge and past the eastern waterway wall, you just have to be important enough.

Merchant traffic doesn't usually go this way, having to go around the large island and out into Lake Enoria.  *sigh*  You know, I *don't* like Enoria for the lake name.  It just looks to much like an inside joke.

How about Anoria instead?  It's close enough that it sounds the same but different enough not to lend itself to the inside joke track.

Anyway, that's it for me tonight.

Cheers!

KF72


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: The Citadel (and Mage's Roost)*

Ok, I lied.  Here's my last closup for the night.


----------



## Conaill

Whoah! Looks like you got a little triger happy with the walls there. 

I don't think the danger from the rivers is nearly as great as you seem to think. If you check the medieval city maps that we've posted links to earlier in this thread, very few have such strong river reinforcements. Much more typical you get a tower on either side of the river, from which any passing ships are essentially sitting ducks.

The internal curtain wall is more problematic though. City walls are concentric - because they're built by the ones in power! You don't just give up the right or left side of the city when you're in trouble, you retreat to the center!


----------



## Conaill

Uhm... Knightfall?

I double checked the scale, and I think you may be *way* off. If that scale bar is only 100 feet, your Mor's end would only be about 880 feet end-to-end! You sure you don't mean yards or meters?

Here's my calculations for the total size of Mor's End, copied from the first page:


> According to Magical Medival Society, a Small City has a population density of 80-120 adults/acre, and 40-60 structures/acre. That comes to a total of about 100 acres (less than 1/2 a mile side-to-side!) and ~5000 structures.
> 
> Just checking the conversion tool... 100 acres is a circle with a 360 meter (1200 feet) radius.



Adding in the surface area taken up by the river, 880 meters or yards across seems just about right. (Mind you, this was probably the *smallest* estimate for the size of the city on the first page. But I don't think anyone else managed to put any concrete number on it.)

This means that the Citadel island for example is about 100 meters wide and 200 meter long (~300'x600', the length of two american football fields), which is probably big enough to have a central keep within its walls. The width of the roads and walls is probably not to scale right now.

This is also why I wanted to shorten the span of Highbridge a little, and why I've been referring to Newbridge as a marvel of dwarven engineering: a 100 meter/yard long medieval bridge is nothing to sneeze at! (Note hat your river gates would have to be of a similar massive scale as well...)

Sorry to break the bad news, Knightfall. I hope it doesn't mess things up too much. But I figure it's better to correct this now than later.

PS: another useful value for you: standard wagon gauge (wheel-to-wheel width) is around 5'. Call it 6' or 2 meters/yards. Minimum width for he main bridges should be ~5 meters/yards (15') to have just a little room to spare. Minor bridges coould very well be single-lane.


----------



## jdavis

I like the internal city walls but it seems that any internal walls would be from the "old" city and the new walls would encompass the newer sections. I don't know how you would show that because I don't know what sections of the city are new and old, but that needs to be taken into account. The dwarf section may also have it's own curtain wall dating back to the time it was first settled. I like the idea of the towers in the river but I don't know about arches between, maybe just a pull chain system to stop boats from entering and the towers on the rivers edge actually being in the river, a tower in the middle would only be needed where the river was widest (in the south). I like wall bridge but the way it is set up you don't need the outer wall/tower/chain, that would be a either/or both are not needed. Also remember that 90% of the towns trouble comes from the south, any extra protection should be directed that way.

The Map looks great and keeps getting better.


----------



## TGD@work

Great job, KF72. Thanks again. 

Something about walls: the first idea was a palissade aroud quite a young and still vulnerable city.
With these walls we're way further along the timeline. All this doesn't happen overnight. I don't know if we're still talking about a 300 years old city but if it's the case, I don't think so many walls are possible. It is still a trade city and  not a fortified garnison city.
The other thing is that it was supposed to be a chaotic city but it looks more like a paladin' stronghold as it is now. Putting up walls in a chaotic city is even slower than elsewhere. The more you fortify the city, the less plot hooks you get too.


----------



## Lalato

*Enoria, Anoria...*

Doesn't matter to me what the lake is called...  Enoria just happened to be one of the names from the original list...

We really haven't named anything after Piratecat...  We could do something based on his name...

Lake Pirata
Lake Kulcat
Lake Kulpin

those aren't all that good... but I'm sure someone else can deliver the goods...

--sam


----------



## Lalato

Finally... something Conaill and I can agree on...  

The scale should be 100 yards or meters not 100 ft.

As for the inner walls...  I think that they should only surround the old city...  Which brings up an interesting question... where exactly is the old city?

I had always assumed that the old city was on the northern banks of the Mor River.  Right around where Old Bridge currently is...

I like the idea that the dwarven area might be walled off...  perhaps because it started as a garrison just outside the original city walls.

Are we still going to have a maze-like area in the city?  If so... where should that be...  North side or South side?)

Just looking at those maps makes me want to go out and buy CC2 today....  Sigh...

--sam


----------



## Conaill

You feeling ok, lalato? You don't quite seem yourself today, with all this agreeing with me and stuff. You're going to start making me doubt my own position now! 

Nah, not really  

Yes, I think the Old City would be the area around Oldbridge. More or less where Grey Dwarf placed "Commerce" on his last district map. (That's why I suggested some of the posh district should be integrated in that area as well: that's where the oldest houses are...). Not sure Mor's End is even _old_ enough to have an inner set of walls though. And in cities where there is an inner ringwall, it's usually because the city has outgrown it's bounds, _not_ for extra protection. In fact, those innner walls quickly tend to become integrated into the surrounded buildings, used as building material etc., and lose a lot of their defensive capability.

Maze-like area: I suggested South of the river (notice how small the streets are?), in between the marketplace/Bazaar and the Squats. That seems like the most logical place.


----------



## TGD@work

*Re: Enoria, Anoria...*



			
				lalato said:
			
		

> *We really haven't named anything after Piratecat...  We could do something based on his name...*



Apart from a mountain range, you mean?


			
				lalato said:
			
		

> *I like the idea that the dwarven area might be walled off... perhaps because it started as a garrison just outside the original city walls.*



I agree.


			
				Conaill said:
			
		

> *Maze-like area: I suggested South of the river (notice how small the streets are?), in between the marketplace/Bazaar and the Squats. That seems like the most logical place.*



Yep


			
				Conaill said:
			
		

> *That's why I suggested some of the posh district should be integrated in that area as well: that's where the oldest houses are...*



I rather think they moved out of the crowded areas as they became rich. To show they were not as common as the others and to get a bigger domain to build on than in small old streets.


----------



## Knightfall

*A question?*

Ok, I've rescaled the map and it should be a lot closer to what it should be.  It's a good thing we figured that out, otherwise it would have been impossible to change it later.

Question... how wide should the main roads be?  So far, I've rescaled all the roads to be 30 feet wide, except for some of the roads in the squat and dock region which are now 20 feet.

{EDIT}

Oh yes, and what about the city's outer towers - what's should be the width.

I've removed the western waterway wall and removed the water towers from the other two but kept the wall.  (This means a huge single arch for each water wall.  I've also taken out the inner curtain wall but plan to build an internal curtain wall around the dwarven district (and maybe the old city near the citadel).


----------



## TGD@work

*Re: A question?*



			
				Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Ok, I've rescaled the map and it should be a lot closer to what it should be.  It's a good thing we figured that out, otherwise it would have been impossible to change it later.
> Question... how wide should the main roads be?  So far, I've rescaled all the roads to be 30 feet wide, except for some of the roads in the squat and dock region which are now 20 feet.
> KF72 *



30 for the caravan roads
15 - 20 for the main streets
10 for the small streets

[Ed]
Watch towers, 10 yard diameter.
Garrison towers 15 yards diameter.


----------



## Lalato

My guess... since I'm no expert...  

30 ft is fine for main thoroughfares...  but 20 ft migh be too big for other roads.  I would guess 15' for other main roads... and even 10' for streets in the Squats, the Tangle/Maze/Snake, Jollita, and Residential...

--sam


----------



## Lalato

Wow... Grey Dwarf and I had the same answer...  

--sam


----------



## TGD@work

lalato said:
			
		

> *Wow... Grey Dwarf and I had the same answer...
> --sam *



Funny thing is, I've been living for 10 years against the remains of the city fortifications and the street is 5 feet wide.


----------



## Lalato

TGD@work said:
			
		

> *
> Funny thing is, I've been living for 10 years against the remains of the city fortifications and the street is 5 feet wide. *




Wow...  is it mostly pedestrain traffic on the street?  If cars drive on the street... is it only one way?

It might make sense if the Tangle/Maze/Knot/Snake area had such small streets.

--sam


----------



## Knightfall

*Re: Re: A question?*



			
				TGD@work said:
			
		

> *
> 30 for the caravan roads
> 15 - 20 for the main streets
> 10 for the small streets
> 
> [Ed]
> Watch towers, 10 yard diameter.
> Garrison towers 15 yards diameter. *




Thanks, also how wide do you recommend the outer walls to be, as well as the walls for the citadel and any inner curtain wall?



Plsu, call me stupid but what's the difference between a 'watch' tower and a 'garrison' tower, besides the obvious.  Are garrison towers specific to gates?


----------



## TGD@work

lalato said:
			
		

> *Wow...  is it mostly pedestrain traffic on the street?  If cars drive on the street... is it only one way?
> It might make sense if the Tangle/Maze/Knot/Snake area had such small streets.
> --sam *



Stairs in fact, leading to the top of the defences.
I agree for the maze.


----------



## Knightfall

lalato said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Wow...  is it mostly pedestrain traffic on the street?  If cars drive on the street... is it only one way?
> 
> It might make sense if the Tangle/Maze/Knot/Snake area had such small streets.
> 
> --sam *




Remember, medeval streets are NOT like modern day streets.  They only needed room for horses and carts to go down and that was usually one way unless it was a main road.

It's coming along nicely, my firneds, just a few more changes needed.  (Rescaling Highbridge is going to be a pain.)

Hmm, I have an idea...


----------



## Tonguez

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Remember, medeval streets are NOT like modern day streets.  They only needed room for horses and carts to go down and that was usually one way unless it was a main road.
> *




"_all o' me life I've wanted to be a barro' boy
a barro' boy I've always wanted to be
and I'd wheel me barro' 
up streets both broad and narro'
a singin'_'

30 feet is enormous and me I'd have only one road in the entire city be that wide - Main Street the Kings Highway what ever ya want to call it.

15 ft for caravan routes 5 -10 for oher streets. 

Remember that narrow streets are also a defensive mechanism - it slows the invaders down and means that defenders only have a few attackers coming through at once. and even now there are cities in which traffic going in one direction has to wait for traffic coming towards it to pass before its safe to move...


----------



## Conaill

*Re: A question?*



			
				Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *I've removed the western waterway wall and removed the water towers from the other two but kept the wall.  (This means a huge single arch for each water wall.  I've also taken out the inner curtain wall but plan to build an internal curtain wall around the dwarven district (and maybe the old city near the citadel). *




The western river branch is the only one that I think could even *have* such a waterwall. The two other rivers spans are way too wide for such an immense construction that doesn't really serve much purpose. If you _really_ want some extra defense on the river approaches to the city, have the towers of the city wall on each side jut out into the river somewhat. Any ship having to pass though there will be sitting ducks, no need for a wall across the whole river mouth! Seriously, check out some of the medieval city maps... can you point to any examples whare there is such a waterwall across a river of this size? What advantage does such an arch across the river serve that you can't get any other way? (Dropping stuff from above? Just set up a few catapults on the towers. One wand of fireball at each river branch wouldn't hurt either.)

And of course, if you do insist on having those water walls, keep in mind that they _will_ get used as bridges to cross the river as well. 

Road widths... 25-30' only for the main trade route (if there's still actual trade caravans coming through  the city, they can use that little extra space...) In the maze, streets can easily go down to 5' or less. I know a few alleys that are closer to 3', and I remember one in Amsterdam (red light district, you may know which one I'm talking of ) that I could swear is only 2' or so. You tend to get one-way _pedestrian_ traffic in that one! 

Let's pick 5' for the top of the walls, if only to simplify combat maps.  Of course, the width of the wall at the base may be *much* more than that, depending on height and type of construction.


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

*Re: A question?*



			
				Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *
> Thanks, also how wide do you recommend the outer walls to be, as well as the walls for the citadel and any inner curtain wall?
> 
> Plsu, call me stupid but what's the difference between a 'watch' tower and a 'garrison' tower, besides the obvious.  Are garrison towers specific to gates? *



Outer walls should be 25 feet at the bottom and 10 feet at the top. Inner walls around 5 feet wide. I'll draw a sketch later (or scan one).

After talking to a friend who is specialised in medieval  history, I must go along with Tonguez.
Caravan and main road: 20 feet
Roads with shops: 15 feet
Other roads 5 to 10 feet


----------



## Lalato

Regarding defenses and walls...  I would prefer that city have some soft openings here and there...  Perhaps the city shouldn't be completely walled... or at least not all of the walls are stone...  or too thick...

I want to give the goblinoids a fighting chance if they attack.  If the city is too well protected,  it means they had plenty of time to build up their defenses.  

The idea is that this area is dangerous.  They're under threat of attack and raids all the time.  They're probably working on building the walls, but they're not completed...  The only part of town with decent walls is the dwarven section... and perhaps the "posh" and old town areas...

--sam


----------



## Conaill

I've been browsing some more medieval maps, in my ongoing campaign against "water walls". 

Here's some links to individual maps that I think are relevant to this discussion. I won't post the whole map here, because that is bound to get a little big. All of these are from the two resources I've mentioned before:

Historic Cities: Maps & Documents (The 1550 _Cosmographiae Universalis_ by Munster seem to be the earliest high-quality aerial views)

Dutch City maps from Blaeu's Toonneel der Steden


I've seen lots of covered bridges, lots of reinforced bridges inside the city, lots of walls along the river banks, but so far no actual water wall of the scale Knightfall is suggesting for Mor's End.

1) Map of Florence, 1550: The squiggly line across the river in the foreground may be a chain, or may just indicate the city border, but it is definitely *not* a fixed reinforcements. Note the towers on either side of the river, and walls along the river banks.

2) Map of Basel, 1550: Note the tower jutting out into the river lower right; walls along part of the river banks; city walls on opposite sides of the iver don't need to line up.

3) Paris, 1550 and Paris, 1572: Good model for Mor's End, with the river crossing across the island (although not entirely to scale, I assume). Towers and some walls along the river banks.

4) Dockum, 1652: At the top of the map, there is one of those bridges that open up in the middle. Not reinforced, and a much smaller span that what we are facing. At the bottom there does seem to be a small water gate, but clearly too small to let ships pass through, that's why they need the tilt-bridge in the North. (Sorry for the scale, but the details are kinda hard to make out on the smaller version...)

5) Maastricht, 1652: Some defensive towers and walls along the banks.

6) Middelburg, 1652: Note the walls sticking out into the river at the entrance to the city.

7) Zwolle, 1652: Earthenworks overlooking the river and some bridges, but no actual water walls.

Do I need to go on? I could probably dig up another ten or so... 

How about this for a compromise:

- We keep the water wall on the Western branch. It's the shortest span, and the ships mainly come through the Southern branch anyway. Even better: remove the outher water wall, but keep the reinforced Wallbridge and the walls from the ringwall to the bridge. That's a veritable deathtrap if invaders get stuck in that little piece of water with walls on three sides...

- We add some towers jutting out into the river at the Southern and Eastern river branch to form a bottleneck for anyone trying to invade the city from that direction.

- We post some lookout towers lakewards of the southern branch. We should easily be able to get some advance warning from those.

- We reinforce the river banks with walls on the southern end of Port Jollita and the docks.

- We span a chain that can be raised at night across the southern branch

All of those have real-world precedents, and combined they should provide significantly more security than putting a huge arch across the river...

Opinions?


----------



## Lalato

I find myself agreeing with Conaill more and more.  I think I may have slipped over to the Dark Side...   

Seriously, though,  I vote for lighter defenses...  much much lighter defenses.

Conaill...  one thing about those maps...  They're from the 16th and 17th centuries...  I think that's far beyond the technological level I assumed for Mor's End.  Are there any maps of 12th century cities?  Or at least something that was built pre-cannon.  Just wondering...  

--sam


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

*Re: Re: Re: A question?*



			
				Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Plsu, call me stupid but what's the difference between a 'watch' tower and a 'garrison' tower, besides the obvious.  Are garrison towers specific to gates? *



Here's a watch tower like most of those included in outer walls:


----------



## Conaill

lalato said:
			
		

> *Are there any maps of 12th century cities?  Or at least something that was built pre-cannon.  Just wondering... *



I haven't yet found any good ones. Seems like the aerial view only came into vogue in the 1500's or so. 

Keep in mind that magic could easily substitute for gunpowder though! A fireball might do more damage to a ship than a cannonball. And if we create a bottleneck of 200 ft or less, a Flaming Sphere will torch a ship in a matter of seconds.

We should probably have a look at the Stronghold Builders Handbook for other tips on low-level defenses too...


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

And a garrison tower that can be found in walls or anywhere in town:


----------



## Conaill

Nice image, TGD! That's a very sizeable watchtower though. We might want to consider reducing the dimensions a little for Mor's End. (then again, we _do_ have plenty of dwarven masons...)


----------



## The Grey Dwarf

lalato said:
			
		

> *Regarding defenses and walls...  I would prefer that city have some soft openings here and there...  Perhaps the city shouldn't be completely walled... or at least not all of the walls are stone...  or too thick...
> I want to give the goblinoids a fighting chance if they attack.  If the city is too well protected,  it means they had plenty of time to build up their defenses.
> The idea is that this area is dangerous.  They're under threat of attack and raids all the time.  They're probably working on building the walls, but they're not completed...  The only part of town with decent walls is the dwarven section... and perhaps the "posh" and old town areas...
> --sam *



Hum...



			
				TGD@Work said:
			
		

> *Something about walls: the first idea was a palissade aroud quite a young and still vulnerable city.
> With these walls we're way further along the timeline. All this doesn't happen overnight. I don't know if we're still talking about a 300 years old city but if it's the case, I don't think so many walls are possible. It is still a trade city and not a fortified garnison city.
> The other thing is that it was supposed to be a chaotic city but it looks more like a paladin' stronghold as it is now. Putting up walls in a chaotic city is even slower than elsewhere. The more you fortify the city, the less plot hooks you get too.*


----------



## Knightfall

*Mor's End Revised*

Ok, I can't really call this version 6 or whatever since I had to do all the walls and towers over from scratch in order to get them the right size.  I've also scaled up the city and the main road (the Traders' Way) is going to be the only road that is 30 feet wide.  The rest will be around 15 feet or less.  Still working out the road specifics.  You'll note there is now WAY more  room and soon I'll be adding samller side roads (7 to 5 feet roughly).

Als note that the inner wall details around the Dwarven Quarter are hard to see on this view.  I'll wait for reaction before going any further with internal curtain walls around the Old Quarter.

Cheers!

KF72

p.s.  I'll post a closeup of the Dwarven Quarter as well but then that's it for me today.  Just bought Airship and Streets of Silver.  Dying to browse both of 'em.

p.s.2.  I'm going to take this moment to pimp my new D20 Blackmoor Yahoo Group.  (Pimping ain't easy!)


----------



## Conaill

Just went to check the "Protecting the City" thread... Mor's End only has a total of 60 City Guards manning the walls (which is even a little high given its size). Add up to 50 more flunkies that have passed the initial training phase of their compulsory military service, but probably shouldn't be trusted with too much responsibility (some of those will have duties elsewhere).

Two watches of 30 Guards. Let's put at least two dedicated Guards on each gate, that leaves 20 Guards. Put 3 Guards to patrol the SW wall, 6 on the SE wall and 11 on the whole Northern section.

Given that number, I think the towers you posted are probably a little too grandiose! The "watch tower" picture is probably large enough to act as garrison tower for us, and the actual watch towers may only be 2-story structures with a similar (but smaller) semi-circular floorplan.


----------



## Knightfall

*post deleted*

Dwarven District reposted.


----------



## Lalato

Conaill said:
			
		

> *
> I haven't yet found any good ones. Seems like the aerial view only came into vogue in the 1500's or so.
> 
> Keep in mind that magic could easily substitute for gunpowder though! A fireball might do more damage to a ship than a cannonball. And if we create a bottleneck of 200 ft or less, a Flaming Sphere will torch a ship in a matter of seconds.
> 
> We should probably have a look at the Stronghold Builders Handbook for other tips on low-level defenses too... *




The thing is that we can't rely on magic as a defense.  If we do that... then we have to assume that magic will be used against us.  It really becomes an arms race.

Let's try to keep it simple.  
*This is a frontier city-state
*It has some walls for protection
*It has some towers
*It has a small garrison of dedicated troops

Following that idea...  There may be some stretches that have very little in the way of city walls.  I would suspect that the Port Jollita area on the island wouldn't even have stone walls.  Probably just wooden pallisades.

The Southside would have walls, but they would have been put up hastily so there are cracks and every once in a while it shifts under its own weight.

The Northside has decent walls, but that's only because the dwarves helped  out... and because it's relatively safe on that side.

I doubt the river has any fortifications at all.  Humanoids don't generally launch naval attacks...

--sam


----------



## Lalato

I would also like to point out that no decision has been made on the trade routes.  I think this needs to be decided before we continue with the city map.

As you all know by now, my vote is for the NE to SW trade route...  not NW to SE.

--sam


----------



## Conaill

Lookin good, Knightfall! Everything does look much more to scale now. Dunno what we would do without you! 

What's the distance between the towers on either side of the river? If we make them less than 220 feet apart, everything in between is within "Medium" spell distance for stuff like Flaming Sphere etc. Right now it looks more like 300 ft or so. (Is that an arrow at the bottom there, or a tower in the middle of the river? Kinda hard to see...)

Do you still want to add some walls along the river bank in the Southern channel? Say, from the ferry to the wall ?

The city wall is probably higher and sturdier where it borders the Dwarven Quarter. Also, the street pattern would differ from the rest of the city. (More grid-like? More concentric for defense?)

We probably want some minor streams flowing through the city as well. The Dwarves live in the highest part of town on somewhat of a hill, and there's mountains to the North, but there might be a little stream flowing in either East or West of the Dwarven Quarter.

Is that a pilon in the middle of Highbridge? I would prefer two pilons as that allows for a more natural arch in the middle (see my little sketch top of page 4), but we can wait nailing that down until (and _if_) we hear from Knid Vermicious.

Any news about how and how well the "random street" feature works in CD2?


----------



## jdavis

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Just went to check the "Protecting the City" thread... Mor's End only has a total of 60 City Guards manning the walls (which is even a little high given its size). Add up to 50 more flunkies that have passed the initial training phase of their compulsory military service, but probably shouldn't be trusted with too much responsibility (some of those will have duties elsewhere).
> 
> Two watches of 30 Guards. Let's put at least two dedicated Guards on each gate, that leaves 20 Guards. Put 3 Guards to patrol the SW wall, 6 on the SE wall and 11 on the whole Northern section.
> 
> Given that number, I think the towers you posted are probably a little too grandiose! The "watch tower" picture is probably large enough to act as garrison tower for us, and the actual watch towers may only be 2-story structures with a similar (but smaller) semi-circular floorplan. *




The lack of guards is where your city vulnrability comes in, as you can see the walls are huge, we would probably have more guards on southgate and trade gate than two and we would probably skew the guard rotation to put more men on the southern wall. I would figure there would be a patrol on the wall in the southgate section (river to river) and a patrol on the trade gate wal(river to river) and one or two patrols on the whole North wall. The city defense plan will call for attacking sections to hold while the rest of the guars mass to come to their aid, you could have 5 guards holding a gate against 50 orcs for 10 to 15 minutes while the rest of the guard rushes to their aid. Smart invaders could cross the wall inbetween guard patrols and then actually be in the city before they were spotted, you are dealing with a raiding force not a attacking force most of the time, they would pull a smash and grab and then try to get away. Thats a big reason for having scouts and rangers to the south, if you know they are coming then you can prepare, if you don't then you could not hold this wall for long with just a 4 or 5 man squad. Also there will be stuff outside the wall, the squats have grown outside the wall and the city is expanding but the walls won't change. The cost of the wall will be huge and upkeep wil be constant and never ending, chances are that the walls are constanly being worked on in one place or another not to mention the southern wall is basically built on the edge of a swamp, there will be constant shifts, cracks and sinkange to deal with. I think the walls are fine how they are, with the number of guards there are and the huge area they have to cover the walls are more of a deterent to slow down attacks than a actual defense. Remember that when you compare this city to a actual medieval city that the medieval city never had to worry about a 10 foot tall Troll attacking the gates, or a hoard of blood thirsty orcs or goblins raiding almost once a week. This is a much more violent world than they lived in.

As far as the watch towers go it is fine if they seem to big for this force to man, the walls were probably designed with a full scale siege in mind and in the event of a siege the numbers on the wall will swell to well over 2000. Many watch towers/guard towers will rarely be used in the day to day workings of the city guard, they should be designed for the rare event of a siege. Also the guards and the city watch probably use some of the guard towers as barracks.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: The West Passage & Wallbridge*

I thought I'd do a few more closeups before I go to bed.  First up, Wallbridge.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: The South Passage*

Ship symbols are cool.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: The East Passage & Newbridge*

And another one...


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: The Citadel, the 3 island bridges and Mage's Roost*

A lto of this is still very much a work in progress.  Especially the Citadel and Mage's Roost.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Westgate*

Now for the main gates.  First up, Westgate.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Tradegate*

And here's Tradegate.


----------



## Knightfall

Ok, now I'm done for the night.  The other three gates don't need to be posted.  Both Southgate and Eastgate are nondescript and Northgate can be seen on the Dwarven Quarter/District closeup.

Lalato: I vote Northwest to Southeast.

Conaill:  haven't tried the random street feature as it is for designing random buildings along a street, not creating random roads (at least I don't think it does that).

Plus, it's not a pilon it's an island and no more river tributaries.  That would be a MAJOR redo.


----------



## fusangite

I made some comments relevant to geography in a new thread I've started on history and religion. I'm interested in people's views on the history and any specifically geographical aspects of it (and for that matter, any historical aspect of your geography).


----------



## Conaill

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Conaill:  haven't tried the random street feature as it is for designing random buildings along a street, not creating random roads (at least I don't think it does that).*



Yeah, that's what I meant: randomly placing buildings along the roads we have now. Not saying we need to do this for all of Mor's End, but it might come in handy as some point. Might even be useful to let people in the Craft  and NPC threads pick out the exact building they want...

Pilon, island, same idea... Any particular reason for having a support in the middle? Seems like that might undo the "High" part of Highbridge. I.e. you'd get a dip in the middle instead a nice high arch.

No more tributaries... no problem. Guess it takes a little more work than just painting them in, eh? (Mind you, I'm just talking about something on the order of a big ditch here... no need to worry about bridges etc!)

No need to add any detail to Mage's Roost, by the way. The mage in question is reclusive and would *not* want any building crews on his island. The ruins on the island are way too ancient to still count as buildings. There's just one single tower in the middle of he ruins, where the mage lives.


----------



## Knightfall

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Yeah, that's what I meant: randomly placing buildings along the roads we have now. Not saying we need to do this for all of Mor's End, but it might come in handy as some point. Might even be useful to let people in the Craft  and NPC threads pick out the exact building they want...*




I agree but we need to make sure we're happy with the road layout first.



> *Pilon, island, same idea... Any particular reason for having a support in the middle? Seems like that might undo the "High" part of Highbridge. I.e. you'd get a dip in the middle instead a nice high arch.*




Ahh, but it is a nice high arch for Pilon Island isn't at the same level as the shore or Citadel Island.  The top of the island is roughly 50 feet above the river's water level.



> *No more tributaries... no problem. Guess it takes a little more work than just painting them in, eh? (Mind you, I'm just talking about something on the order of a big ditch here... no need to worry about bridges etc!)*




A big ditch...  Hmm, something to think about.



> *No need to add any detail to Mage's Roost, by the way. The mage in question is reclusive and would *not* want any building crews on his island. The ruins on the island are way too ancient to still count as buildings. There's just one single tower in the middle of he ruins, where the mage lives. *




Done.


----------



## Conaill

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Ahh, but it is a nice high arch for Pilon Island isn't at the same level as the shore or Citadel Island.  The top of the island is roughly 50 feet above the river's water level.*



I agree we can't span the river in one arc for Highbridge, but I don't quite see what you have in mind. Could you draw me a quick sketch of the side view? For comparison, here's my earlier sketch, reposted from two pages ago, using three arcs (the middle one is high enough to let all but the very tallest lake ships pass underneath):


----------



## Knightfall

*Pilon Island (Not to Scale)*

Like this...


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Northern Docks*

Ok, I've been adding docks to the Docks District.  Here are the Northern Docks.  The rule in CC2 when doing docks is to keep it simple, IMO.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Southern Docks*

The Southern Docks.  These and the Northern Docks are for those with less coin.  Also the Southern Docks are imporant because of the Ferry crossing between the Docks District and Port Jollita.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Dock Harbor*

Ok, this is the main dockyard for Mor's End.  Note the water watch towers to help police and protect the dockyards.  (I might put some towers on the shore too if you guys think that's appropriate.)

The docks attached to Dockwall are exclusively for the city's military and administrative sailing ships.

I'm thinking there will also be docks on the shore Port Jollita and the Merchant District as well... but not as extensive as these.


----------



## Conaill

Pilon Island: That doesn't seem like a great place to put a bridge. A rock of that size would be more of a hindrance than a help in building the bridge. Ships would have to stay *well* away from it, so the highest point of the bridge would have to be in between Pilon Island and the Mainland (or Pilon Island and Citadel Island), giving us an esthetically unpleasing asymmetrical arch. Two high arches is possible, but then we'd get get a big height difference across Citadel Island to link up with Highbridge.

It might be clearer if you draw the bridge in place as well, including the arches (for ship passage) and road surface. Even better: do it "backwards": draw the bridge _first_, then figure out where the presence of such a rock in the river might be of help.

A secondary problem is that Pilon Island would also have gotten in the way in the pre-bridge era in the beginning of Mor's End's history. Such a rock in the middle would probably have made it a dangerous place to cross on horseback or swimming, not to mention driving wagons across a ford!


Docks: I highly doubt Mor's End would have that many piers sticking out into the river. Medieval river harbors mainly consisted of reinforced river banks where ships could pull up alongside. Piers are only necessary if you need to enlarge the amount of shoreline you have to dock ships at. Right now, the river bank in the main docks area (between the southern wall and Highbridge) is about 1200 feet long, which could easily fit 12 ships alongside it at any one time. Within that area, you've drawn about 30 piers sticking out into the river! That's one every 40 feet! You would barely have space for ships to fit in between...

Have a look at these closeups of some of the maps I posted earlier (caution: LARGE!): Paris, Dockum,  Maastricht, Zwolle.  In each case, the majority of the ships is simply moored perpendicular to the river bank, with hardly any pier structures to support them. Only on the Paris map are there a few structures sticking out into the river, but that one is on a very different scale from Mor's End (anyone know what the population size of Paris was in the 1500's?) I assume ships would only dock parallel to the river bank when they're actually loading or unloading cargo. In that case, we should have *plenty* of dock space without needing to build any piers. 

Just for the fun of it, we may want to have one or two piers anyway. They're cool structures, and an interesting locale for a DM to place a combat, for example. Such a pier could easily be 100-200 feet in length and 15-20' wide, not like the small walkways you drew.

Keep your scale in mind when you're detailing the harbor area. That little ship icon may be way off scale for a three-master. In my current RP group we did a little research to commision our own ocean-worthy ship. It wound up being 25'x75', which is only barely long enough for a three-master. River barges may be narrower but longer. I'd say count perhaps 30'x100' for your average large ship, including maneuvering space around it.


----------



## jdavis

most of the boats would be small so I have to agree with conail on the docks, fishing boats normally just slide up on the shore. There will be some bigger docks and landings for things such as the barges caravans are using to come from the Southwest. Oh and my navy got shot down a long time ago there are no military ships bigger than some rowboats. Now Lady Kelvin probably has a ship and I bet there are several Pleasure Barges for the nobles. There will be several trading ships that use the river but they would not be the big three mast ocean ships. Have docks in Port Jolita but have the other side be mostly for tying up to the shore or pulling up on a beach.

Because of the fact that we won't have any of the really big sailing ships in town I think Pilon island would work just fine, have it lopped off at the top where the two spans join, it is still wide enough for ships to get through and that is one of th widest spots for crossing the river. There would of been shallows or a ferry or something at one time to cross there but they could of been next to pilon island instead of going across it.


----------



## Conaill

Knightfall, here's my updated proposal for the Citadel, keeping into account the layout of the bridges and the scale.

The central keep is about 200 feet, which is quite substantial for a medieval castle (compare with size of the city blocks!). Walls are not to scale. It may even have a smaller donjon inside of it. I also sketched in some additional buildings which could be administration (city council?), library, stables, blacksmith, garrison, etc. (they're probably drawn a little too large, compared to the city blocks...)


----------



## fusangite

Please vote in the Lady Kelvin poll I posted. I'm having real trouble with hammering out who she is. Also, please check out the history thread if you haven't had a chance.


----------



## Knightfall

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Pilon Island: That doesn't seem like a great place to put a bridge. A rock of that size would be more of a hindrance than a help in building the bridge. Ships would have to stay *well* away from it, so the highest point of the bridge would have to be in between Pilon Island and the Mainland (or Pilon Island and Citadel Island), giving us an esthetically unpleasing asymmetrical arch. Two high arches is possible, but then we'd get get a big height difference across Citadel Island to link up with Highbridge.
> 
> It might be clearer if you draw the bridge in place as well, including the arches (for ship passage) and road surface. Even better: do it "backwards": draw the bridge first, then figure out where the presence of such a rock in the river might be of help.*




I did that image in photoshop using the mouse.  It's not suppose to be to scale or show exactly how Pilon Island is suppose to look.  And jdavis has the right idea.  The top would be sheared off.  (I didn't feel like trying that in PS with only my mouse.)

Here's Citadel Island revised with your proposed changes.


----------



## Conaill

Citadel: cool! 

Am I correct in assumming that CD2 doesn't do curved walls? I'm not sure we should have that many towers along the outer wall (ditto for the walls along the West Passage)


----------



## Knightfall

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Citadel: cool!
> 
> Am I correct in assumming that CD2 doesn't do curved walls? I'm not sure we should have that many towers along the outer wall (ditto for the walls along the West Passage) *




Ok, I thought about this and I'm fairly sure that wouldn't be structurally sound.  I asked my sister, who has a degree in interior design (including architectural knowledge), and she concurs.  Curved outer walls, for a fortress, wouldn't be structurally sound.  A castle's walls, in my mind, should be straight ending in towers.

Oh and yes, CD2 does does curved lines (walls).

{EDIT}

NOTE: I am going to do some more research.  I've still have the old TSR Castle Guide as a Word Document (which TSR/WotC gave away on the website for free, at one point).


----------



## Knightfall

*The Citadel: New Design with curtain wall*

Ok, here's a concentric design for The Citadel.  It's based on this image to a degree.  Of course, I'd like to follow that design more closely but this is a fantasy castle after all.

Opinions?

KF72


----------



## Knightfall

*Here's a bird's eye  view of a concentric design*

This is Beaumaris Castle in Britian.  (The concentric design I did for The citadel would be designed like this a lower curtain wall surrounding the full keep.


----------



## Knightfall

*Another design possiblity*

It's important to note that Mor's End is supposed to be a frontier city.  Thus, the Citadel might be non-descript like this image of Skenfrith Castle (also from the same site: Castles of Britian.

Note that this castle has a single tower in the center of the courtyard with four simple stone towers.  Of course, the castle is depicted as a ruin in the picture so it's hard to judge what the castle looked like exactly.

What I'd like to do is find a nice medium between this and the last image.  Perhaps a simple keep square or rectangular keep with a simple concentric wall.

Opinions?


----------



## Lalato

I much prefer the Skenfrith castle to the other one.  Skenfrith looks older... and of about the right period of time...  maybe only looks older because it's in ruins... I don't know.

One other thing to remember is that the people that originally settled Mor's End were barbarians and possibly slaves.  There might have been a slave or two with some architectural knowledge...  and I'm sure they received help from dwarves.  Still... I doubt they would build really grandiose things.  

I only say this because it falls into line with my theory that the walls were often hastily built.  There might even be curved walls that they tried out as an experiment (probably on the safer north side).  

The city is on the edge of the civilization...  These walls weren't built by the medieval equivalent of Frank Lloyd Wright...  they weren't even built by his apprentice.

--sam


----------



## Conaill

Skenfrith is way too small for what we have, but it's essentially the same idea as my earlier sketch: a ringwall around the island, and a solid central keep inside it. 

Beaumaris looks cool, but it looks like it was all pretty much designed by one architect and built all at once (which, I believe is the case for many of the British castles: Britain went through a huge expansion in number and size of castles during a relatively short period of its history). I would prefer something a lot more "organic", like some of the mainland european castles.

Here's the Counts' Castle (Gravensteen) from my own hometown of Ghent:









You can get a nice virtual walk-through of the castle (click on the "EN" button for English).

Edit: hmm... seems like the walkthrough doesn't work too well in the English version. You may need to pick the NL or FR version to get all of it...


----------



## Conaill

Regarding the latest sketch of the Citadel: we do need to draw in the trade route connecting both bridges, which should *not* go through the inner set of walls. Then you also need space for entire trade caravans to gather (the toll collectors would presumably want to check the entire caravan before asessing the toll and letting the caravan pass). 

Add in the fact that you don't need such an immense inner courtyard (600 feet... what, are you planning on playing football there? ) and you get something that's probably more like halfway between out two designs.

PS: we really need to draw in the actual keep as well, i.e. the solid central building that houses everything that all those walls are protecting. In my sketch I had intended the entire inner circle to be the keep, but now I do think that we need an inner courtyard as well, separate from the outer more "public" area where the caravans gather.


----------



## Conaill

Been reading through the Castles of Britain site Knightfall posted earlier. _Very_ informative, but keep in mind that the four castles featured there aren't very representative of the possible variety of castles. Three of the four (Beaumaris, Harlech and Conwy) were built pretty much from scratch by Edward I between 1277 and 1283. That's why they share so many features (especially the very "planned" and symmetrical look, and the huge round towers).

I'll see if I can dig up some more pictures...


----------



## Knightfall

*Last Citadel revision for a while*

Ok, this work on the citadel is taking up too much of my time.  Thus, I won't be revising this for a while.  There are other things I have to do for the city map, as well as my own mapping projects.

I tried using curved lines for the curtain wall but it looked awful.  Very unnatural.  The main keep in the center is finished.  I'm going to keep it simple.

Next up is a curtain wall for the older part of Mor's End.  This will include all of the merchantile district on the northern shore.  (I dont think the Posh District will be included in it.  It would look weird.)

Later,

KF72


----------



## Conaill

Looks good for now. I agree there's more important things to work on for now. I still like the idea of having the original toll gate in between the bridges. Perhaps the gate is freestanding in the center of the area north of the keep, kinda like the Arc de Triomphe?

I wouldn't add too many extra walls in the city. I don't think 300 years is long enough to develop a second ringwall, and we don't have enough guards to man the wall as it is.

Here's one idea that needs urgent implementation: put a grid on the map! You know...  A-Z across the top, 1-10 down the side. Make the grid as fine as possible,maybe adding AA-ZZ etc. as well. That way, posters in the Crafts and NPC threads can start specifying exactly _where_ they want to place certain buildings.


----------



## Knightfall

*Revised Main Map*

Ok, this is where I am.  To sore to type.  Will show closeups tomorrow.


----------



## Conaill

Cool link -courtesy of alsih2o - on a possible network of tunnels underneath Tokyo:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?fl20030301a1.htm

Good fodder for a mystery underneath Mor's End...


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Ruined Inner Wall*

Ok, this wall was originally built to protect the city when it was much smaller.  It evolved from being a simple wooden wall to a stone construct.  This wall took a pounding in its day and the last time it was breached the city didn't have the resouces to rebuild it.

Plus, as the city continued to expand and the main outer wall was built, it became less vital to defense.  The city's limited monatary resources were allocated to other thing and the wall was never fixed.

Certain sections are near collapse, especially in the northeastern part of the city.  Some of the sturdier walls and towers have been bought and used by private owners, strong foundations for their homes and businesses.

However, the one tower near the Dwarven District and last two towers in the ruined chain near Newbridge are still under the control of the city and are used by the watch.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Posh District*

Unlike the portion of the wall that was left ruined in the eastern half of the city, the Old Wall, as it's called, was rebuilt shortly after the attack that destroyed it.  Not rebuilt by the city, but by the private coffers of the city's nobility, this wall is still sturdy, and is often manned by the private guards of those same nobles.

However, in a time of crisis, any high ranking city official, military or otherwise, can take command of this wall to help defend the city from attack.  Not even the nobles would dare oppose Lady Kelvin or the Castellan during such a crisis.

While the Old Wall refers to the entire wall that stretches from Wallbridge to the edge of the Dwarven District, it is this section which is well maintained, as it divides the Posh District from the rest of the city.

The city's nobility wish to have a another wall built stretching from Westgate to the Old Wall on the northern side of Traders' Way but so far, the Castellan has refused their request.  Such a wall serves no real military purpose and would further divide the city.

*Note:*  The Downpour Alehouse would be located on the other side of the Old Wall, just beyond the edge of the map.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Dwarven District*

Ok, here's the dwarven district, this time with it's gates included and a semi-finalized road layout.  (All of these road layouts are semi-finalized, BTW.)

The inner wall here wasn't goingto be rebuilt after the attack that destroyed the Old Wall but the dwarves living in the district couldn't stand to look at the crumbling fortifications.  The entire district purchased the wall from where it turns south towards the western part of the city to the tower just before the watch tower on the other side of the Northern Way.

The dwarves rebuilt the wall and added to it as well, stretching the wall all the way to the western tower of Northgate and up to the city's outer wall at the western end of the district.

The dwarves scoff at the notion that the Old Wall is is better condition than the Dwarven Wall.   And one could say that it is just as solid as rebuilt section of the Old Wall near the Posh District.  In reality, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Both are just as sturdy, but the Old Wall was built by humans.  The Old Wall is simple and strong while the Dwarven Wall has been built by dwarves for dwarves.  The wall would last a thousand years without maintenance and is carved like a dwarven work of art.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Western Common District*

This section of the city is the reason why the nobles of the Posh District want to build a wall that stretches from Westgate to the Old Wall.

Not really a poor section of the city, the Western Common District is just that, common.  The nobles feel that 'the commoners' are too close for comfort and wish to put them out of mind by putting them out of sight.

Of course, they's never say that in public.  They say that such a wall would help with the city's defense and point to the walls built around the Dwarven Quarter as an example of what they mean.  However, the Dwarven Wall isn't just for dwarven guards and is a public wall.

The nobles insist that if they get permission to build a northern posh wall that it would be a private ediface that they would only reliquish during a crisis, just as they do with the section of the Old Wall that divides the Posh District from the rest of the city.

To say that the nobles insistance that the wall be built has  pissed off the residents of the WC District is an understatement.  It was only two generations ago that the families of the Posh District were their friends and even their relatives.

Now the 'nobility' is starting to become to noble, in the mind of these residents.  They are just starting to learn what the rest of the city has know for generations.  Saying you're noble doesn't make you noble of heart.  

_Does anyone have a better name for this district?_


----------



## Lalato

What's the scale of these maps?  On first blush... it seems like there is way too much open space.

--sam


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Southwest*

Here is the southwestern part of the city, made up of The South Commons and the Jollita District.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Southeast*

And here is the southeastern section of the city, made up of the Squats and the Dock District.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: Northeast*

Here is the northeastern section of the city, made up of The North Commons, Poor District and northern section of the Squats.


----------



## Knightfall

*CLOSEUP: The Heart of the City*

This section of Mor's End is known as the Heart of the City.  It is made up of the Traders District, part of the North Commons and the Gods District.


----------



## Knightfall

Lalato said:
			
		

> *What's the scale of these maps?  On first blush... it seems like there is way too much open space.
> 
> --sam *




Ok, you have to take into account that the roads shown are the MAIN roads.  It is possible that some areas might have additional side streets and back alleys but I've not gotten down to that level yet.  Main roads first then we'll see it goes.

Until then here is a closer look at the Gods District with a scaled section so you can get a better judge for yourself.

That's it for me today.

KF72


----------



## Lalato

> Ok, you have to take into account that the roads shown are the MAIN roads. It is possible that some areas might have additional side streets and back alleys but I've not gotten down to that level yet. Main roads first then we'll see it goes.




Got it...  In that case...  It looks freakin' awesome.  You've done an incredible job KF72...  

I wish I could send over a team of professional hand massagers and acupuncturists to alleviate the pain.  

--sam


----------



## Conaill

I like the idea of the inner wall falling into disuse. At least - more so than the idea of having two fucntioning ring walls. But I still doubt enough time has passed to allow for *two* such massive undertakings. A far as I'm concerned, the fewer walls we add at this point the better! 

As a compromise - could we make the inner wall a chunk smaller? Newbridge is fairly recent, so there's no reason the Old wall would have to reach so far East.

Also, the shape of the dwarven district is rather weird. It looks as if it grew out of the outer city wall, rather than as a settlement next to the Old city wall. Almost as if someone just looked at the outline of the city, and carved out a section for the dwarven district.  

The dwarves would also have picked out the highest ground in Mor's End for their settlement. Maybe they can even see the mountains of Kul Moren from there? If they're on a hill, that would definitely affect the street plan in the area.


How about something like this:


----------



## Conaill

Knightfall, what do you think of my earlier suggestion that the Posh district and Gods district should be swapped? It would make much more sense for the Posh district to be inside the Old wall (oldest buildings in the city, including ancient aristocrat estates), _and_ next to the Traders district (where the rich guys get all their money from in the first place!)

I've never understood why D&D cities should have a "temple district" in the first place. Historically, churches tend to be spread out over the city, with a few major ones in the center, and typically a healthy competition for parishoners between them. In a D&D universe there would be a lot _more_ strife between different religions, and therefore even more incentive for temples to not cluster together but spread across the city!


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## jdavis

Map looks great 




			
				Conaill said:
			
		

> *I like the idea of the inner wall falling into disuse. At least - more so than the idea of having two fucntioning ring walls. But I still doubt enough time has passed to allow for *two* such massive undertakings. A far as I'm concerned, the fewer walls we add at this point the better!
> *




The inner ring would date back to the time of the burning of the city, in many places those walls would be charred and blackened still from the fire that raged hundreds of years ago (did we ever get a date on the fire?). The need for the new wall probably had to do with the fact that the old wall was breached and the city was burned. Also the old walls were probably not near such a massive undertaking as the New Walls were.



> Also, the shape of the dwarven district is rather weird. It looks as if it grew out of the outer city wall, rather than as a settlement next to the Old city wall. Almost as if someone just looked at the outline of the city, and carved out a section for the dwarven district.
> 
> The dwarves would also have picked out the highest ground in Mor's End for their settlement. Maybe they can even see the mountains of Kul Moren from there? If they're on a hill, that would definitely affect the street plan in the area.




There should be a Dwarven tower somewhere in that district, the dwarven district was a extension of their origional keep that the city grew around.

Oh another thing, the squats will extend outside the wall to the south, probably around trade gate.


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## Conaill

jdavis said:
			
		

> *Oh another thing, the squats will extend outside the wall to the south, probably around trade gate. *



And to the east along the river! It's farther away from the swamp and its inhabitants, and patrols along the trade route probably keep the area North of it somewhat safe. I figure there's a lively traffic of small rowboats between the Squats and the Squats-beyond-the-wall, and some of the more daring Squatters may even use the parts of the Warren that stretches underneath the walls!

Thora the Witch lives in that general area, between the trade road and the river, downstream from Mor's End


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## Knightfall

Lalato said:
			
		

> *Got it...  In that case...  It looks freakin' awesome.  You've done an incredible job KF72...
> 
> I wish I could send over a team of professional hand massagers and acupuncturists to alleviate the pain.
> 
> --sam *




Lalato, if you want to help alleviate the pain in my life somewhat then pickup a copy of Enigma of the Arcanexus from Dark Portal Games.  (You can get it through Amazon.  See link on DPG product page.)

http://www.darkportalgames.biz/products/wr_series.html#wr1

I helped write it and gain coin for every copy sold (and no I can't say how much).  Plus, it's a really good adventure to boot.  

Cheers!  (Oww...)

KF72

p.s.  No more typing for a while... off to read Dragon 306.


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## wizardoftheplains

Wow.  What a ton of work here.
Catch me up to speed please.
I've skimmed this and have come up with the following locations within the scity.  I'm most interested in Districts.
Posh District
Dwarven District
Western Common District
Jollita District
Dock District
The Squats
The Heart of the City
Gods District
The Citadel
East Passage
New Bridge
Mage’s Roost
Westgate
Tradegate
Pilon Island
Northern Docks
Southern Docks
Dock Harbor

What did I miss.  District  list complete? 
Thanks,
gary


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## Conaill

Have we decided yet on a scale for the larger map? I.e. how many miles away are Lalaton and Kul Moren? How long does it take to cross the swamps?

There have been some watchtowers proposed over on the "Protecting the City" thread, in terms of "a day's walk" etc.

As a reference, here are some overland movement rates per day:

Walk: 24 miles
Horse: up to 48 miles, more likely 32 miles
Cart/Wagon: 16 miles

Swamp, on road or trail: x 3/4
Swamp, trackless: x 1/2

Mountains, highway: x 3/4
Mountains, road or trail: x 1/2

Hills, road or trail: x 3/4
Hills, trackless: x 1/2


If we model Lake Enoria after Lake Ontario, that's about 100 miles by 50 miles. On a fast horse, it would only take you three days to get to the other side by road.

I would put Lalaton about two days away from Mor's End by trade caravan, or 32 miles. That way, we can put a rest stop for the caravans halfway in between. Or do we want to be able to transport fresh daily fish from Lalaton to Mor's End? Then we're limited to 16 miles.

Kul Moren should probably be a few days from Lalaton by caravan. Given terrain and size/quality of the road, let's assume 9 miles per day (16 miles x 3/4). So Mor's End is at least 20 miles from Lalaton.

Wagons traveling the causeway through the swamp only cover 12 miles per day, so they may need to spend a night inside the swamp, or do a forced march to get perhaps 18 miles or so per day. How wide do we want the swamp to be?

Swamp Keep is half-day’s walk south of Mor’s End. That's 6-9 miles into the swamp, depending on trails.

Sparguard Keep is a days walk from Mor's End on the North side of the lake. That puts it at about 24 miles away. That's _past_ the last rest post for caravans on their way to Mor's End. If we put Lalaton three caravan days away from Mor's End, Sparguard Keep would be conveniently halfway between the two.


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## Lalato

This is just a guess... 

but I think Lalaton (I swear I had nothing to do with that name) is about 60 miles west from Mor's End.  

Kul Moren is at least another 60+ miles north of Lalaton.

There is likely a watchtower halfway between Lalaton and Mor's End.  I'm not sure where other towers should be.

--sam


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## jdavis

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Have we decided yet on a scale for the larger map? I.e. how many miles away are Lalaton and Kul Moren? How long does it take to cross the swamps?
> 
> There have been some watchtowers proposed over on the "Protecting the City" thread, in terms of "a day's walk" etc. *




I used the term a days walk because I didn't know the scale of the map. There will probably be several small towers in the North but most are probably abandoned. Halfway between Lalaton and Mor's End on the edge of the lake would be a good place for Sparguard (the northern tower detailed in the guard thread).


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## Conaill

Just updated my post above with actual numbers while you guys were posting...

So let's put Lalaton 48 miles away from Lalaton, with Sparguard midway in between. That sounds reasonably close to Lalato's 60 miles. Two days on foot, a full days ride on a fast horse, three days by caravan.

Kul Moren 60 miles north of Lalaton...  at an average 3/4 movement, that would be 4 days on foot, 2 days by horse, 3 days by donkey or mule, or 7 days by caravan.

Still need to put a number on the size of the swamp though. Do we want caravans to be able to cross it in one day? I would recomend _not_. How about 20 miles wide? That would put it _just_ within reach for a foolish caravan driver to try cross it without stopping (diving about 14 hours straight).

That also means the ferry between the "big island" (we need a better name for that damn thing! ) and Enoria Tower would not just be a river crossing, it would actually travel several miles across the lake past the swamp. Could be open to attack by small boats from the swamp, which is fine by me.


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## Lalato

> I would put Lalaton about two days away from Mor's End by trade caravan, or 32 miles. That way, we can put a rest stop for the caravans halfway in between. Or do we want to be able to transport fresh daily fish from Lalaton to Mor's End? Then we're limited to 16 miles.



Wouldn't it be faster to transport fish via the lake?  That's why I put Lalaton so far away from Mor's End.  

On a keelboat with good current a fishing crew could make Mor's End in 17 hours.  

A barge would take 18.5 hours.  

If the boat has a sail that might cut the time also.  That part isn't clear in the DMG because it is assumed that sails aren't used on lakes and rivers.  If however, we used sail boats from the DMG, and added a good current (3 mph), the travel time would be cut to 12 hours.

My guess is that barges and keelboats leave Lalaton around noon so they can arrive for the next morning's fish market.  Barges and Keelboats are probably cheaper to build so they probably are the majority of the boats used.  A few sailboats might be used, but they don't hold as much as a barge or keelboat.

--sam


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## Conaill

I think that without ice, transporting fresh fish over that kind of distance isn't really feasible - sailing ships or not. We may have to leave _fresh_ fish for Mor's End up to the fishing industry based in Port Jollita. 

However Lalaton could be exporting some sort of salted, pickled or dried fish. Some sort of local delicacy. That would also make a lot of sense for the caravans passing through: they'll need some sort of food that lasts a long time while they're on the road...


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## GladiusNP

Maybe the Lalaton fishermen tend to go out to the main shoals, which are halfway between Lalaton and Mor's End, catch a load, then sail south to the city.  They spend about nine hours getting to the main fishing area, then take it south to the city.  This takes the pressure off the fishermen in the city, makes Lalaton worthwhile in terms of trade with the city, and means the fish don't spoil.  

Does Kul Moren get supplied by Lalaton?  I didn't think dwarves liked fish....

How far is it to cross the swamp? I remember 14 hours been given as time for a desperate caravaner.  I'd say this should be longer - otherwise it's too short to cross on horseback.  A light horse could race across in 1/3 of the time - that's about 4.7 hrs (page 143 of the PHB).  This means the swamp is hardly an impediment at all.  I'd suggest that the horse's crossing time should be 14 hours, at least.  Then the caravan takes 32 hours to cross - making only rashest try to cross the causeway, for what comes out of the swamp at night....  Alternatively, they could try and push through in one long stretch (32 hours is doable), but making this run would be foolhardy, dangerous, and against all advice to the contrary - unless you pull it off.  Then you are skilled, lucky, and brave.  Though mainly just lucky.


----------



## jdavis

GladiusNP said:
			
		

> *Maybe the Lalaton fishermen tend to go out to the main shoals, which are halfway between Lalaton and Mor's End, catch a load, then sail south to the city.  They spend about nine hours getting to the main fishing area, then take it south to the city.  This takes the pressure off the fishermen in the city, makes Lalaton worthwhile in terms of trade with the city, and means the fish don't spoil.
> 
> Does Kul Moren get supplied by Lalaton?  I didn't think dwarves liked fish....
> 
> How far is it to cross the swamp? I remember 14 hours been given as time for a desperate caravaner.  I'd say this should be longer - otherwise it's too short to cross on horseback.  A light horse could race across in 1/3 of the time - that's about 4.7 hrs (page 143 of the PHB).  This means the swamp is hardly an impediment at all.  I'd suggest that the horse's crossing time should be 14 hours, at least.  Then the caravan takes 32 hours to cross - making only rashest try to cross the causeway, for what comes out of the swamp at night....  Alternatively, they could try and push through in one long stretch (32 hours is doable), but making this run would be foolhardy, dangerous, and against all advice to the contrary - unless you pull it off.  Then you are skilled, lucky, and brave.  Though mainly just lucky. *




I would figure the Swamp would be quite large going south but the caravan route just cuts across the edge of it where it meets the lake. If you cross in mass or you cross showing a heavy guard you can make it, Goblins are basically cowards and the Orcs don't have the numbers. Several large caravans may bunch up together while crossing the swamp so they can combine their guards.


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## Conaill

GladiusNP said:
			
		

> *I'd suggest that the horse's crossing time should be 14 hours, at least.  Then the caravan takes 32 hours to cross - making only rashest try to cross the causeway, for what comes out of the swamp at night...*



I have no problem making the swamp larger to cross. I would make it no longer than 12 hours by horse. That's 54 miles, 36 hours by caravan. (14 hours by horse would mean 42 hours by caravan, not 32)

Anything over 8 hours per day counts as a "forced march" and requires Con checks each hour to avoid taking damage, so even by horse this would be highly dangerous. 32 straight by wagon would be virtually impossible without magical help.


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## jdavis

If you know basically how big the lake is then you can figure out how long the trail is because it pretty much hugs the shoreline, it never goes deep into the swamp it follows the shoreline. If the corner edge of the swamp is more than 50 miles long then the whole swamp would be hundreds and hundreds of miles deep towards the south and over a hundred miles wide. Your getting into a everglades size swamp (if not bigger). 50 miles along the shore means that 1/4th the shore of the lake is a swamp or the same distance given from Mor's End to Lalaton, that is just the corner edge of the swamp.


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## GladiusNP

Conaill said:
			
		

> *
> I have no problem making the swamp larger to cross. I would make it no longer than 12 hours by horse. That's 54 miles, 36 hours by caravan. (14 hours by horse would mean 42 hours by caravan, not 32)
> 
> Anything over 8 hours per day counts as a "forced march" and requires Con checks each hour to avoid taking damage, so even by horse this would be highly dangerous. 32 straight by wagon would be virtually impossible without magical help. *




Sounds good!  12 hours by horse, and that's a fast one.  Makes it a dangerous propect to go south, which is an effective barrier to keep low-level PC's from taking off through the swamp.  Sorry about the calculations.  Fifty miles makes a nice figure as well, easy to remember (though it is a little over this.)  

With regards to a forced march, I'd say no one's going to seriously try this....  Is that alright with everyone?  Maybe in the three hundred year history of Mor's End, only a few trips have been made - on the order of only two or three.  Pull it off, and you are a legend.  Most just die.  Is that what we want?  

If so, then fifty-four miles it is.


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## Lalato

The lake is only 120 miles long.  If the swamp is 50 miles wide... that makes it nearly half the length of the lake.  That doesn't make any geographical sense.  If the swamp is that big, it would divert a lot of water from the lake.  

I would say the northern edge of the swamp is between 20 to 30 miles wide.  The far side of the swamp from the city is somewhat hilly and lightly forested.  That way...  even if a caravan gets past the swamp, they can still be ambushed in the forested hills beyond.  

There is a small tower at the edge of the swamp and hills, but it is rarely manned as the Outland Rangers are on patrol.  Still... some caravans use the tower as a place to spend the night before they make the next days journey through the hills.

The forested hills give way to rolling pastures.  Here the caravans are safest because they can see an attack coming for miles.  There is another small tower here at the edge of the forested hills.  This one is a little better kept than the one near the swamp.  The caravans usually trek another day or two beyond the forested hills before turning south.

The southern route through the swamp needs to be a viable route for caravans to take.  As I've previously stated... I disagree with the current caravan routes on the map, but I'm willing to go with it as long as the southern route is still viable...  dangerous, but viable.  A dangerous southern route can provide plot hooks for tons of adventures... but if it is too dangerous no one will ever use it...  and there for no plot hooks.

--sam


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## jdavis

Here I'll pull up a older map for reference here. Lalaton is 48 miles from Mor's End. What this map lacks is a route going North-North East from Mor's End and a pass through the mountains where the route continues going North West from Lalaton and the South West route crosses over to the big island to go into southgate on the city maps. If the North West edge of the swamp is 54 miles then it is much farther than drawn and the other side is farther away than Lalaton is in the north.


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## jdavis

one more for reference so we don't have to jump back and forth.


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## Conaill

And one more reference: Mor's End is about 7000 feet end-to-end, or about 1.3 miles. The width of the swamp on those maps is about the same. Do we really want to have a swamp you can walk across in just over half an hour?

Mor's End is quite small. If we really want the swamp to be a significant threat/obstacle, it'll have to be quite a big larger than in the maps above.

You're right that 50 miles is probably too much. And 1.3 miles is presumably too small. Do we want to make it 8 hours by an average horse? That would be 24 miles. Still too wide to cross by caravan in a single day. Or do we want to make it a "forced march" by caravan, say 12 hours? That would be 18 miles across.

Either way, that ferry crossing to the southern trade route will need to be redrawn as well. I don't think we want to make the big island *that* long.

Just as a reminder, here's the distances per 8-hour day for the swamp:

Walk, trackless: 12 miles
Walk, on causeway: 18 miles
Caravan: 12 miles
Horse: 24 miles
Fast horse: 36 miles


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## Lalato

Yes... I think a forced march by caravan works really well.  Even after the caravan gets past the swamp, it still has threats from the forested hills beyond.  The forested hills should take another forced march to cross.  Beyond that the way is fairly clear, but still dangerous.

--sam


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## jdavis

Conaill said:
			
		

> *And one more reference: Mor's End is about 7000 feet end-to-end, or about 1.3 miles. The width of the swamp on those maps is about the same. Do we really want to have a swamp you can walk across in just over half an hour?
> 
> Mor's End is quite small. If we really want the swamp to be a significant threat/obstacle, it'll have to be quite a big larger than in the maps above.
> 
> You're right that 50 miles is probably too much. And 1.3 miles is presumably too small. Do we want to make it 8 hours by an average horse? That would be 24 miles. Still too wide to cross by caravan in a single day. Or do we want to make it a "forced march" by caravan, say 12 hours? That would be 18 miles across.
> 
> Either way, that ferry crossing to the southern trade route will need to be redrawn as well. I don't think we want to make the big island *that* long.
> 
> Just as a reminder, here's the distances per 8-hour day for the swamp:
> 
> Walk, trackless: 12 miles
> Walk, on causeway: 18 miles
> Caravan: 12 miles
> Horse: 24 miles
> Fast horse: 36 miles *




If you go by the first map I put up the swamp runs all the way down the southern coast of the lake, I just put up the closer one to show where the caravan crossed to the big island, it was a older map. My point is that you are never crossing the swamp you are skirting the dge of it along the coast, you really don't ever go into the swamp you just run across one small corner of it. I wasn't trying to show scale with the second map just how the route ran over the island. 

There really needs to be a final version of the area map in scale with the caravan routes and the swamp. I'm assuming the swamp is hundreds of miles deep and at least 50 miles across, 100 would be perferable, but that doesn't have much to do with the caravan route it just barely goes through the corner of it.


----------



## Conaill

jdavis said:
			
		

> *My point is that you are never crossing the swamp you are skirting the edge of it along the coast, you really don't ever go into the swamp you just run across one small corner of it.*



I figure the swamp would peter out into a series of disconnected islands and floating vegetation towards the lake. In order to have enough solid ground to build the causeway, you can't put it all the way at the edge of the lake, otherwise it becomes a series of long bridges.

Since someone mentioned the Everglades, here's some sections of the western part of the Everglades that might be a good model for our swamp:


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## Conaill

And a closeup of the second one (Ponce de Leon Bay, I believe). Just for kicks, I've drawn in where would be the easiest place to put a causeway:


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## Conaill

Some more Everglades, to put things in perspective. Notice how absolutely huge 54 miles is. If the swamp stretches out inland even further, that would make it _significantly_ larger than the Everglades. 18 miles looks more reasonable, perhaps extending inland about as far as the Everglades do (e.g. 40-50 miles or so).

(The little sections I posted above are only ~ 3 miles across. Didn't have a scale on those, I just picked them because they "looked right". Which is why I went looking for a better map...)


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## jdavis

The swamp would run further south off the map, it's just that the caravan route doesn't go all the way south it turns and follows the lake west, the caravan route could be 18 miles through the swamp and the swamp could still be huge because it runs North-South and the caravan route turns west. It would probably be better to say the swamp runs off the map to the south and just figure out how wide it is, I think the 18 miles along the lake for the caravan route makes more sense, it could be well over 50 miles wide and run as far south as DMs needed it to to fit it into their campaign.


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## Lalato

OK... just so I have this straight...  the swamp looks sort of like a cone.  The mouth of the swamp is 18 miles wide... and it slowly spreads to a width of a bout 50 miles wide.  The length of the swamp is undetermined...  it could be 50 miles deep or more DM's discretion.  Beyond the swamp there are forested hills.  Beyond that there are rolling hills and flat land.

--sam


----------



## jdavis

I have created the worst map ever to show what I was thinking, the green is the swamp and the red is the trade routes, you can see that the route just goes through one corner of the swamp not across it.


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## Lalato

That's about what I was thinking...  somewhat cone shaped.

I think we also need to decide exactly how close to the city the swamp is.  Is it right outside the city walls...  or is it further out?

--sam


----------



## Conaill

Well, how close do we want Mor's Endto be to the rampaging orcish hordes? 

Assuming that we might get a surprise attack from the swamp, how much advance warning do we want to give the defenders of Mor's End?

A creature with a 30' speed can Run 1200' in a minute (up to Con rounds), or Hustle 6 miles in an hour. I think we'd want to be somewhere between 5 minutes and 1/2 hour from the swamp. That's 1/2 mile to 3 miles.

In terms of strategic watchtowers, we want one that overlooks the stream that forms the northern border of the swamp, plus one on the "big island" that overlooks all the little waterways coming out of the swamp.


----------



## jdavis

THe marsh could run all the way up to the city but the trees would be cut back away from the wall, I don't know about a half mile as that's a lot to keep clear in a swamp. Close to the walls has probably been filled with dirt but they would want to keep it swampy to impede people chargng the walls across it or trying to bring up any siege weapons that way.


----------



## Conaill

If we're expecting enemies from the swamp, I don't think we want to have the swamp all the way up to the walls. Remember all those semi-aquatic races we were discussing? That's _their_ homeground, and I don't think we want to let them sneak up to Tradegate through the network of little streams.

Obviously, vegetation will have to be cut back as far as possible, but I think we'd be better off with a stretch of firm open ground between the swamp and the wall. That way the defenders can send out sorties outside the walls without getting stuck in the mud. 

I think the hexmap on the previous page is reasonable in terms of how close the swamp is to the city walls.


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## Lalato

The hex map puts it at about 1200 feet.  According to Conaill, it would take about a minute to traverse that distance at a full run.  I'm OK with that.  

That means it's close enough to be a serious threat if the watchtowers don't spot them.  If the watchtowers spot them before they reach the edge of the swamp, there is just enough time to sound an alarm.

--sam


----------



## David Argall

"I have created the worst map ever to show what I was thinking, the green is the swamp and the red is the trade routes, you can see that the route just goes through one corner of the swamp not across it."

    Well, I can manage to do worse on the artistic aspects, but I will point out that this is a weird shape for our swamp.  Normally it would be far more of a triange, with the large side facing the lake.  
    That would cause the trade route to go around it rather than thru, but it is a more realistic picture.


----------



## jdavis

David Argall said:
			
		

> *  Well, I can manage to do worse on the artistic aspects, but I will point out that this is a weird shape for our swamp.  Normally it would be far more of a triange, with the large side facing the lake.
> That would cause the trade route to go around it rather than thru, but it is a more realistic picture. *




you have to remember the water is running out of the lake not into it. This is a giant lowland in between hilly forest, the water isn't really flowing in any direction in there it's just sitting. Of course it wasn't drawn with any real geographic logic involved, it's a giant plot device.


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## Lalato

> Of course it wasn't drawn with any real geographic logic involved, it's a giant plot device




truer words were ne'er spoke.  

The lake is based on Lake Ontario in North America.  The River is there because it was a compromise for Mor's End not being a seaport.  The mountains are there because we want dwarves.  The caravans are there to explain away the low population in the region and to give the place diversity.  The swamps are there because swamps are...  well...  uhm...  swamps are just cool and creepy darn it.  

Actually... I never pictured them being swamps in the louisana bayou sense.  I pictured them more as moors, fens, or marsh.  As jdavis described it...  it's a low lying area that is low enough to collect water from the lake, but too high to become completely flooded.  The area is bounded by forested hills.  It's certainly a geographical oddity, but there are enough geographical oddities in the real world that we shouldn't have to worry about explaining this one too deeply.

As for the lake... it is fed by streams from the mountains... and from an underground spring.  I actually have an idea that the warrens underneath the city where the "the horror that lurks below" lives is a series of tunnels and caverns.  One of those caverns opens into an underground pond that if you could hold your breath for an hour would lead you through the hole at the bottom of the lake...  but that's something for my personal version of Mor's End...  not for the "official" version.  

--sam


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## Knightfall

Sorry I haven't been around you  guys.  I've been busy doing my own stuff and then holding off doing anything else, in order to keep the pain in my hand at a minimum.

You might want to check out my latest creation under my Aquatic Creature Fun thread (see sig) for a new gargoyle variant.

This might lead to another gargoyle variant which will be a swamp dweller, which would be perfect for the swamps around Mor's End.

I'll check in later this week and try to catch up.

Cheers!

KF72


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## Conaill

I'm back...

I started trying to reconcile all the different scale maps we have, and I stumbled upon another huge discrepancy:

On the last hexmap TGD posted, the "Big Island" (still need a good name for that damn thing!) is about 1.5 miles long, slightly larger than Mor's End itself. However, on the latest large-scale map, the island is drawn about 13 miles long! 

Personally, I think 1.5 miles is already pushing it, but at 13 miles, any fishing (or silk-fishing) industry based in or on the outskirts of Mor's End will pretty much only have access to the mouth of the river, not the lake itself.

I would suggest sticking with the earlier 1.5 miles for the island, and adjusting the lake shore so Mor's End is much closer to the lake itself.


----------



## Conaill

Something like this...

Scale for this map is 10 pixels per mile. I've tried to draw Lalaton approximately 48 miles away, and the swamp 18 miles across


----------



## Lalato

Conaill said:
			
		

> *I'm back...
> 
> I started trying to reconcile all the different scale maps we have, and I stumbled upon another huge discrepancy:
> 
> On the last hexmap TGD posted, the "Big Island" (still need a good name for that damn thing!) is about 1.5 miles long, slightly larger than Mor's End itself. However, on the latest large-scale map, the island is drawn about 13 miles long!
> 
> Personally, I think 1.5 miles is already pushing it, but at 13 miles, any fishing (or silk-fishing) industry based in or on the outskirts of Mor's End will pretty much only have access to the mouth of the river, not the lake itself.
> 
> I would suggest sticking with the earlier 1.5 miles for the island, and adjusting the lake shore so Mor's End is much closer to the lake itself. *




Welcome back, Conaill!!!
I don't have a problem with the big island (Enoria's Tooth?) being smaller.  

Personally, I would like to see a regional map that encompassed the entire lake not just the eastern half.

--sam


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## Conaill

Lalato said:
			
		

> *Personally, I would like to see a regional map that encompassed the entire lake not just the eastern half.*




Hm. For ease of portability, I would prefer restricting it to Lalaton in the West, Kul Moren in the North, the swamp in the south, and say 1/2 a day's ride (25 miles) in the East.

If we were building an entire world or region, obviously we would want to put Mor's End within the larger context. But since we're focusing on building a portable *city*, I think giving too much regional context is only going to hurt us...

Heck, some DM's may even wish to reverse the flow of the river, and make the lake an ocean instead. Right now, we don't really have anything that would stop them from doing so, which is just fine with me.


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## Conaill

Hi all!

have a look at KnidVermicious' sketch of citadel island and the two bridges on his Fantasy Architecture thread

He started working on this when we didn't have a bunch of detailed worked out yet, so it's substantially different from what we have on the map right now. But perhaps we can work with hime to incorporate it anyway? What do you all think...


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## Conaill

let me just repost his post from the other thread as well:







			
				KnidVermicious said:
			
		

> *Well, when I started there were no pictures of the island. I only knew about the two bridges. Now its bigger, there are more bridges and the city is more defined. This is good. I would rather work from a more complete idea. I'd be happy to start over when things are more solid and I have more time. I wouldn't be getting this version done for several weeks anyway.
> 
> I like the way the maps are  turning out, and if I get really ambitious I might try to do the whole city. That would take some time, though. I figured that with my time limitations now, it might be better to work on some smaller projects.
> 
> Here is a rough of what I have so far. It was only about 40% done in my estimation. To change it to what is planned for Mor's End I would basically have to start over anyway. *


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## Lalato

That looks amazing!!!  

--sam


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## KnidVermicious

Hello everyone,

Please don't feel the need to change anything to match the drawing. I would rather have you continue your planning, and when you have a more solid idea I can start again. I'm looking forward to taking some of these detailed maps and turning them into perspective drawings. Unfortunately, I've got a lot of stuff going on in the next month or two so I wouldn't be able to start a major project until June.

If anyone has any small projects, like a specific building or something, I could probably get that done pretty quick.

I am enjoying watching this place take shape.


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## Conaill

KnidVermicious said:
			
		

> *If anyone has any small projects, like a specific building or something, I could probably get that done pretty quick.*



Hypothetically speaking... if a bunch of elves and gnomes got together and designed a Guild Hourse (tower?) incorporating lots of high tensile strength silk (think tensegrity...), what might such a structure look like?


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## KnidVermicious

Are we talking about silk ropes or silk sheets/sails? Or both?


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## jdavis

KnidVermicious said:
			
		

> *Hello everyone,
> 
> Please don't feel the need to change anything to match the drawing. I would rather have you continue your planning, and when you have a more solid idea I can start again. I'm looking forward to taking some of these detailed maps and turning them into perspective drawings. Unfortunately, I've got a lot of stuff going on in the next month or two so I wouldn't be able to start a major project until June.
> 
> If anyone has any small projects, like a specific building or something, I could probably get that done pretty quick.
> 
> I am enjoying watching this place take shape. *




That looks great. I'm sure all sorts of small projects will pop up, I have at least one that I'd like to see but it will be next week before I can dig back in to Mor's End.


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## Conaill

KnidVermicious said:
			
		

> *Are we talking about silk ropes or silk sheets/sails? Or both? *



Whatever strikes your fancy. Fisher silk is bloody expensive, so I would guess silk cables would be more likely. Then again, this _is_ the guild building...

Consider it an artistic challenge. Could be anything from a pure tensegrity tower like this one: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 to a more spider-web like building. (The former may be a little too angular for the elves, but the latter has some... unpleasant connotations, shall we say?) Either way, it should show off the beauty and properties of the silk.


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## Conaill

For those of you who want to start placing specific buildings in the city, I've added a grid to the city map (I used the latest city map I posted because I had it lying around anyway). Hopefully, this is fairly self-explanatory. The a-b-c-d in the top left indicate subdivisions of the squares. For example, North Gate is in G1a. Thora the Witch lives somewhere around L6.


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## GladiusNP

This is just a thought regarding the watersilk tower.  What if the silk was used to make a bridge between two towers?  Sort of works to show off the wealth of the guild, but also prevents anyone from absconding with a few choice peices of silk rope.   

Anyway, how durable is silk rope anyway?  I once read an article that said if we could weave with spider's webs, a t-shirt made of it would be as protective as kevlar.  (I think it was in Scientific American).  Is watersilk this tough?  I don't know if it should be quite that good - silk armor seems kind of odd.  

I like the map.  Definitely a good idea to begin tying houses into the city more tightly.


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## Conaill

Here's my latest to-scale map of the area around Mor's End. I believe I've included all the landmarks and distances we've already decided on, plus a couple more:

- Pirate's Rest: a caravan serai one day's travel (by caravan, of course) from Mor's End along the road to Lalaton. Quite luxurious, first "real" civilization the caravans coming from the West will encounter.

- Trader's Roost: a heavily reinforced caravan serai one day's travel to the East. I'm working on a band of mercenaries / caravan guards that accompany caravans up to two days from Mor's End - that's the most dangerous part of the East-West trade route, due to the proximity of the swamp and the forest. Trader's Roost is their headquarters and a highly recommended stop-over point for caravans.

Comments? Changes? Requests?

I've got a big Gimp file (think Photoshop for Linux) at twice the resolution of this one, with layers for pretty much everything. I'll add in patterns for mountains, forest etc once we've nailed everything else down. 

Grey is mountains, greyish green is hills, dark green is forest (need some more of that), olive green is swamp.


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## Krug

Wow nice maps. Not sure about the name 'Pirates rest'.
I like Gladius suggestion about the Silk Bridge.


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## Conaill

Krug said:
			
		

> *Not sure about the name 'Pirates rest'.*



I was looking for something a little romantic, a little fancy. Think red velvet on the walls, dancing girls and "companions" for those caravan drivers that haven't seen a sophisticated women for weeks or months, all the best Mor's End has to offer, rooms overlooking the lake.

"Pirate's Rest" seemed kinda appropriate. It plays in to the legend of "Katze" Kulpin haunting the waters of the lake. No actual pirates involved, of course.


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## jdavis

Enoria Keep was on the other side of the swamp (close to the river opening.) There would be Ferry Landing where you have Enoria Keep. Ferry Landing was never fleshed out, it's where the ferry's are loaded and unloaded for those who bypass the swamp. I'll try a little write up on it this weekend.


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## Conaill

Hmm... that's not how I understood it:

"Enoria tower guards the river crossing for the southern caravan route as it heads for Southgate or y’s off to head for Tradegate. It sits on the southern bank of the river mouth. Enoria tower consists of a small watchtower and a ferry across the river."

On the old hexmap, that puts Enoria Keep on the _far_ side of the swamp. With the much larger swamp, I don't think it makes sense to have an extra ferry from the Big Island south to hook up with the southern trade route. Caravans would probably take either the Jollita ferry, or cross via the bridges.

I don't mind putting Enoria Keep on the near side of the swamp, but it would no longer be a twin to Sparguard, and no longer have a ferry...


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## jdavis

Southgate is on the Big Island, that is where the caravan route comes in the gate at. The ferry there crosses the river not the lake. Enoria Keep defends the Big Island. I am not sure why the caravan route y's off there and goes back into the swamp but I was going by how it was drawn. If trade doesn't go through Southgate then it has to go through the swamp again to get to Trade gate from the southwest. The Jolita Ferry and the bridges are inside the city, this is at the mouth of the river leading into Southgate and guarding the big island. The ferry here isn't the barges that bypass the swamp and head south it crosses the mouth of the river to Southgate on the big island. That is why is unimportant and manned by trainees, the barges have killed caravan traffic off going into the swamp. Being at the far end of the swamp is much more dangerous as it's where the barges unload at and would be a prime place to raid. Enoria Keep and Sparguard Keep are sister towers in construction (they have the same floorplan) as most towers in the area would be to keep cost down.


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## Lalato

I guess this has been my point all along...  Why would anyone take the southern route around the lake... ever...  When they can take an extra half day or day and take the northern route around the lake.

That's why I was trying to block access to the northern route from the west so caravans would be forced into the southern route.  Without anything blocking the northern route there is no need for ferries or paths through the swamp... because sane caravan masters would opt for an extra day around the northern side of the lake rather than deal with raiders from the swamps.

If, however, the northern route is an extra weeks journey because the path is blocked by mountains or some other obstacles, then it would make better sense that caravans would use the southern route around the lake... or even ferries.

--sam


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## jdavis

The big thing about the caravan routes is you don't know where they are going because this is made to plug into any world. Their desitnation and importance will change accordingly. We don't know whats ont he other side of the lake and we really don't need to know. The route on the North side of the lake should run North West not just west or there is no reason for the south west route, they should form a x in Mor's End so that the reason for both routes is in the destination and we can assume that there is something on the other side of the lake that keeps you from crossing on that side.


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## Conaill

jdavis said:
			
		

> *Southgate is on the Big Island, that is where the caravan route comes in the gate at. The ferry there crosses the river not the lake. Enoria Keep defends the Big Island. I am not sure why the caravan route y's off there and goes back into the swamp but I was going by how it was drawn. If trade doesn't go through Southgate then it has to go through the swamp again to get to Trade gate from the southwest. The Jolita Ferry and the bridges are inside the city, this is at the mouth of the river leading into Southgate and guarding the big island. The ferry here isn't the barges that bypass the swamp and head south it crosses the mouth of the river to Southgate on the big island.*



I'm not sure I follow you. I don't think we ever suggested serious caravan trade trafic coming out of Southgate. It's mainly a gate to give access to the rest of the big island. 

Caravans heading SW would either board a ship in Mor's End, or go out Tradegate and cross the swamp. They don't even set foot on the Big Island.

Ther _is_ a ferry crossing the river from the Big Island, but it's _inside_ the walls, from Port Jollita to the part of the city South of the river. A ferry further towards the mouth of the river would be longer, more dangerous, and serve much less of a function.

The only maps I've been able to find that showed a ferry crossing the the river outside of the city walls are the old hexmaps. On those, the swamp was MUCH smaller than what we've decided on now, so the ferry could easily bypass the swamp altogether. With the much larger swamp, I don't really see a need for the second ferry that would land you right at the mouth of the swamp...

Another point of clarification: did you intend Enoria Keep to be _on_ the Big Island? ("Enoria Keep defends the Big Island.")


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## jdavis

Conaill said:
			
		

> *
> I'm not sure I follow you. I don't think we ever suggested serious caravan trade trafic coming out of Southgate. It's mainly a gate to give access to the rest of the big island.
> 
> Caravans heading SW would either board a ship in Mor's End, or go out Tradegate and cross the swamp. They don't even set foot on the Big Island.
> 
> Ther is a ferry crossing the river from the Big Island, but it's inside the walls, from Port Jollita to the part of the city South of the river. A ferry further towards the mouth of the river would be longer, more dangerous, and serve much less of a function.
> 
> The only maps I've been able to find that showed a ferry crossing the the river outside of the city walls are the old hexmaps. On those, the swamp was MUCH smaller than what we've decided on now, so the ferry could easily bypass the swamp altogether. With the much larger swamp, I don't really see a need for the second ferry that would land you right at the mouth of the swamp...
> 
> Another point of clarification: did you intend Enoria Keep to be on the Big Island? ("Enoria Keep defends the Big Island.") *




All the maps I saw had the caravan route crossing over to the big island and going to Southgate, and also y'ing off to head towards tradegate, I went witht he newest map I saw at the time (almost a month ago). Enoria Keep was written to protect that crossing to the big island from orcs and goblins using the crossing there to raid north, it wasn't as important anymore because barges covered the important traffic going south now. The big island has shrunk and the swamp has moved south down the coast so the written discription for Enoria's keep is completly wrong for the last map presented. It was written for this map and needs to be changed. I will change it's write up to match the new map.


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## Conaill

Ok. Do you think we should still have the second ferry? Anyone opposed to scrapping it?

I put a series of low hills between the swamp and the river (geologically, there needs to be some sort of rise there, otherwise the swamp will simply drain into the river). Those hills would form a good outlook post over the swamps to the South.

I would recommend placing the new Enoria Keep a little further inland as well, so it can surveil more territory. At the same time, we also need a small watchtower on the Big Island, to overlook the streams coming out of the swamp and guard against an attack by river.

Here's a little blow-up of the immediate neighborhood around Mor's End. Do you like where I put Swamp Keep, or do you think it should be deeper into the swamp, away from the causeway? Where I put it, it's close enough for traders to seek cover if they run into trouble, but just far enough away they might get lost or attacked trying tro get there.


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## jdavis

I can edit Enoria Keep to put it on the big island. The ferry can go with no problems, it was written to fit a old map I'll just edit the discription to fit the new map.

Swamp Keep is fine where it is, it's quite possibly haunted and most people avoid it (except for the Rangers), I have a idea for making the flooded out tunnels under it a adventure site, but above ground it is just a old ruin.

The spot where you had Enoria Keep would be a good place for a tower, there will be a small hamlet on the lake side close to there where they load and unload barges (I've been calling it ferry landing but it needa a real name.) And there will most likely be at least one tower directly south of the town on one of the overlooking hills, heck there are probably several of these small watch towers in the countryside around the city on both sides of the river, many on the north would be unmanned but they would still be there. Small three story towers with a large fire pit on top for signalling the city in time of trouble. Most of these would need no write up at all, just point out they are out there and leave it at that, I was trying to do some example towers witht he ones I did to show how one would be set up.


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## Conaill

Sounds good.

Re: signalling towers... How far apart can we put signaling towers that use some sort of semaphore system (flag waving, etc)? How far apart if we rely on signal fires? Are there any cheap magical items that could be used for communication at a distance? I definitely want to have some sort of communication in place between Traders Roost and Mor's End...


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## Lalato

I would think you would have to be pretty close for flags...  Different colored flares could be used for different situations.

--sam


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## jdavis

Flags would generally mean line of sight, a signal fire could be seen for several miles if it was big enough and at night. It would be hard to have any communication besides a danger signal with a fire though. Flares would tend to be gunpowder which is pretty advanced or magic which is relatively expensive, but would be simular to the giant bonfires except it would be very short and very visable where the bonfires would not be as visible but could burn at a high level for days. A kind of flare makes sense in the swamp as it would be hard to find a lot of good dry wood to build a bonfire and also it would be hard to find a place to build a fire that was both dry and above the treeline.


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## Conaill

Hah! Through the miracles of Google: There's a famous chain of semaphore towers between London and Portsmouth, spanning a total of 108 km with 15 towers. That works out to about 4-5 miles per tower. Other sources claim about 20 miles between towers, a network covering 4800 km with 556 stations (5.6 miles/tower), 25 km apart (15.5 miles), or 5-10 miles apart.

The longer distances are made possible by the use of telescopes. Let's say a maximum of 5 miles without the use of a spyglass. That means that I would need at least 2-3 signal towers between Traders Roost and Mor's End (16 miles). That sounds like a bit much. Maybe I should invest in two MW spyglasses and skip the intervening towers...

On the other hand, a signal fire at Traders Roost could probably be seen from Mor's End at night. We might even be able to send messages by covering the light from the fire with some sort of shutter / wooden board etc.

Anyone know of any existing magical items that would provide some form of communication at these sort of medium-length distances?


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## Conaill

I figured out what to do for my caravan escorting service. The idea is to have two caravan serais east of Mor's End (Traders Roost and one as yet unspecified further east). Caravans coming from the East would spend the night at the farthest serai. At a specified time during the night, the serai owner sends up a colored flare, signaling Traders Roost to send an escort. A party of 5 or 10 guards leaves from Traders Roost ~3 hours before dawn (on horse), meets up with the caravan at dawn, escorts them back to Traders Roost, and the next day to Mor's End. Similar signals flow from Mor's End to Traders Roost and the far serai to signal that a caravn will be arriving the next day.

There's a watch post at Mor's End (manned by the City Guard under an arrangement with the Castellan), one at Traders Roost, and one at the far serai. Each has 3 different colored flares. One color means "send escort", the second "danger - enemy sighted" and the third "under attack and / or sending this flare under duress". Each night, the colors are assigned differently, under a schedule only known to the owner of the serai.

That will take care of commercial communication, plus alarms during the night. For daytime alarms, Traders Roost could have a signal fire emitting black smoke (the fire itself would be hard to see during the day). Other watchtowers in the area could use a similar system.


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## GladiusNP

Just as a general note, the very organized and well set-up system being discussed does seem a little too civilized for the swamp.  I was under the impression that the ferry was the smart man's way, and only the brave and desperate approached the swamp.  That said, I don't think the caravan serai should regularly send guards to help merchants out.  I think maybe a waved flag and the words "this is as far as we go" is more appropriate.  Just my thoughts - take them as you will.


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## jdavis

The southern route would definatly be different than the Northern route, there are not that many towers and the caravan route is pretty dangerous, in the north you could have a chain of towers but they would probably not all be armed towers, in the south the towers are all early warning devices and would worry very little about the trade route or sending messages.


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## Conaill

The caravan serais are all on the East-West caravan route, which I think carries the heaviest trade. That road doesn't go through the swamp at any point, but it is still fairly dangerous up to about one or two days travel east from Mor's End. 

Someone came up with the bright idea that caravans passing through would gladly pay for some extra guards to accompany them on that stretch, and built a reinforced serai one days (16 miles) east of Mor's End. He now has pretty much a monopoly on protecting caravans going across that stretch of road. The whole operation only employs 20 or so guards, typically working in teams of 10. [As I mentioned in the Craft&Trade thread, the largest caravans originating from Mor's End itself (carrying up to 10,000 gp of goods according to A&EG) would already have a standard contingent of ~20 guards traveling with them. 10 more guards should be enough to scare off most trouble.] The signaling system means that no caravan will have to wait for more than a day (typically only overnight) to secure an escort.

I'll put a writeup in Crafts&Trade when I have some time. The guy in charge would be fairly high up in the Merchant's Guild and/or the Guards Guild, and may even be from one of the noble houses. Traders Roost would be a smaller affair than some of the noble estates you guys have been proposing, but well reinforced and with a large courtyard for wagons and stables. 

Traders Roost is very functional, and well defended. Pirates Rest to the West of Mor's End is owned by someone else and  focuses much more on luxury (probably charging 10-50% more for certain goods and services than you would pay in Mor's End itself).


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## KnidVermicious

I've posted pictures of the Silker's Guild Hall in my gallery  and in my art thread 

Feel free to use any of the images in the gallery or thread for anything you want (though you may want to ask permission fromthe board members who came up with some of the ideas).

Any other requests?


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## Conaill

Because Knid is too modest, I'll repost his absolutely stunning Silker's Guild Hall here:


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## Krug

WOW.. beautiful.. Thanks Knid! Truly stunning.


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## jdavis

It is impressive. Love the bridge.

Other things around the city I'd like to see:

The gates, particuarly Trade gate and the squats outside the wall.

Mor's Tree in the citadel courtyard.

Dwarven keep and the Dwarf quarter of town. 

Port Jolita

The raised causway through the swamp

The ruins of Swamp Keep

The temple of the cult of Mor (well the temple has never been mentioned but the cult was covered in the history thread, so you know they got to have a temple.)


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## GladiusNP

That picture is fantastic - thanks for your effort KnidVermicious.


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## KnidVermicious

Thanks guys.

As Conaill requested here is the first floor of the Silkers' Guild. I imagined it as an open air market with a retractable roof (like a baseball stadium, I guess). The two side areas are promenade/public meeting areas, with a meeting room attached. I took inspiration form the Bingtown Trader's hall in Robin Hobb's Ship of Destiny series. I left the numbers with no descriptions, so use them however you want. 2d floor coming soon.

That's  5'x5' grid for scale.


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## Conaill

Thanks a bunch, oh Vermicious One!

That does seem like a *lot* of public area, for what's essentially a luxury product. Based on the 3D views, I got the impression that the two side wings (labeled "3") were a series of rooms, not a public promenade. Guess they could be individual stores for the members of the Silkers Circle. The covered walkway around it would be ideal for displaying wares, and would probably be more than sufficient for open air market.

The center area could then be used for cultural events. The Silkers Circle is dominated by Elves, who might perhaps be more likely to organize such events. Concerts, theatre plays, etc. I don't know if a city of this size would tend to have an entertainers guild (possible: Mor's End should have about 30 Bard class NPCs, and a total of 4-5 each of Acrobats/Tumblers, Jesters, Jongleurs, Minstrels and Storytellers), but if so they might rent the space for performances.

Another issue: Where in the city do we want to locate the Silker's Circle guild house? I'd vote for the area around D5-E5 (see gridded map on the previous page).


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## jdavis

This building would probably be the center of the culture of the few elves in this area (almost all of them are involved in the silk trade). A lot of the entryway would be a showplace to impress foriegn traders too.

I agree with the map grid. I'd go with E-5 close to the river and almost at the center of the "old city".


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## Conaill

*The Orchard.*

The Orchard is a haunted set of hills and small mounds, in the foothills North of Mor's End, covered with a wide variety of fruit trees. It is said that each of the thousands of fruit trees is planted over the grave of a fallen hero from some long-forgotten battle, and that at night their ghosts roam the orchard. Despite the beauty of the fruit blossoms in spring, and the abundance the trees provide in autumn, superstition keeps most people away from this place. It is said that no harm shall come to those who pass in reverence, and only pick up the fallen fruit from the ground. But woe on those who should try to pick the fruit from the trees!

In reality, the trees are indeed planted over the graves of heroes, and their (largely benign) ghost do roam the Orchard at night (and in the denser parts of the forest of fruit trees, during the day as well). However, these are not fallen warriors from some great battle. They are volunteers who gave their lives to guard a much darker and Evil presence sleeping fitfully deep underneath the scattered burial mounts. At the order of Cor Mahael, the Wizard on the Island,
there used to be a member of the Mage's Guild permanently stationed at the Orchard. This post has been abandoned for the past 50 years (although the Mage's Guild has not bothered informing Cor Mahael of this).

This locations could also make a good place for a well-hidden enclave of sprites, fairies, dryads and other Fey. One or more Druids, and perhaps some Treants are possible as well. These may or may not be aware of the Evil that sleeps below.

Plot Hooks:

- The party passes through the Orchard and plucks some fruit - or worse: decides to spend the night and builds a fire! The ghosts (leaning toward LN and LG, although Detect Evil may detect a faint Evil aura in the whole area) will try to scare and drive off the party. The more the party resists, the more help they will summon, including any other inhabitants of the Orchard. If the party does significant damage to the Orchard, the Evil beneath may start waking up...

- A lightning strike has set fire to part of the Orchard (or a Blight is spreading among the orchard trees). The party is called in to help
put out the fire and/or restore the Wards. The request for help could come directly from the Orchard ghosts or other inhabitants if the party is nearby, from the Mage's Guild (if they even remember what is buried underneath the Orchard), from Cor Mahael himself (if the smoke is visible from his tower in Mor's End), etc.

- The Ghosts of the Orchard have started terrorizing nearby farms and manors, and the party is called in to investigate. In reality, the
ghosts have been trying to call for help in controlling the Evil they guard. However, communication is not a ghost's strong point, and the farmers (with the possible exception of a little girl) are terrified. Perhaps some ritual needs to be renewed once a century? Perhaps the ancient apple tree in the center of the Orchard is dying and a volunteer is needed to take his place?


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## jdavis

Looks good Conaill


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## Knightfall

_Thread Resurrection_!

For use with Knightfall's version of Mor's End. See The World of Kulan Thread for more details.

*Can a moderator please move this thread to the Art Gallery, Cartography & Miniatures Painting forum!*

Thank You!

KF72


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## Knightfall

Just thought I'd link my final version of the map I did for Mor's End. This map ended up being modified from the original one created for this thread, but it looks very close to original design. - KF72


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## Knightfall

Here is one of the closeups...

*Number Locales*





I lost the key for the numbered locales, so here's a quick replacement...

1. High Market
2. Low Market
3. Jollita Market
4. The Citadel
5. Tower Island


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## Knightfall

_post deleted_


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## Knightfall

*Reposting Completed Map of Mor's End*

Just because...

*Print Screen Version*


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## Knightfall

ATTN:  [MENTION=9541]The Grey Dwarf[/MENTION],  [MENTION=9171]Lalato[/MENTION],  [MENTION=1264]Conaill[/MENTION],  [MENTION=2141]Krug[/MENTION],  [MENTION=5278]Jolly Giant[/MENTION],  [MENTION=5703]wizardoftheplains[/MENTION],  [MENTION=515]Shadowdancer[/MENTION],  [MENTION=4481]David Argall[/MENTION],  [MENTION=990]Buttercup[/MENTION],  [MENTION=4962]Tallow[/MENTION],  [MENTION=720]Wippit Guud[/MENTION],  [MENTION=1125]Tonguez[/MENTION],  [MENTION=8704]jdavis[/MENTION],  [MENTION=10574]GladiusNP[/MENTION],  [MENTION=7240]fusangite[/MENTION],  [MENTION=6512]KnidVermicious[/MENTION].

I don't know how many of you are around any more, but I figured I'd put up these mentions in case any of you wanted the larger print screen version of the map.

Cheers!

KF


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