# What If...?



## MarkB

Good first episode. The animation was well done, though some of the voices were a little jarring compared to their movie counterparts.


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## Older Beholder

I really enjoyed it, they can have a lot of fun with action sequences by doing things in animation. The fight scene with the fighter planes for example. 

I heard there are only 9 episodes (I'd seen it mentioned previously that there were going to be 10)


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## Tonguez

The Lizard Wizard said:


> I really enjoyed it, they can have a lot of fun with action sequences by doing things in animation. The fight scene with the fighter planes for example.
> 
> I heard there are only 9 episodes (I'd seen it mentioned previously that there were going to be 10)



9 episodes but season 2 is already confirmed

I liked the episode and how its scenes parallel and contrast with the movie. It was a lot more mundane than I expected but it is only episode 1 so perhaps they’re leaving the gonzo weirdness til later. 

Captain Carters fighting technique was awesome and much more brutal than Captain America’s - a much higher kill rate! The fighter plane combat was very cool. I also really liked how the nod to Bucky losing an arm was lampshaded and even the fight with the tentacle-hydra.

Biggest problem was it wasnt long enough!!


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## trappedslider

and now we have a new time line:

Marvel Studios' _What If...? _is likely placed right after _Loki_ because of the destruction of the Sacred Timeline, which creates the multiverse that the new animated Disney+ takes advantage of.. Technically, What if could go anywhere, but for when it comes to pure viewing order for the audience, then its placement makes a lot of sense. Not that it's completely necessary to watch Loki before What If...?, but the show's explanation of timelines, multiverses - the whole nine-yards - it's all very helpful in understanding what The Watcher is showing the viewing audience.

The order for the MCU now stands:

1.) _Captain America: The First Avenger_

2.) _Captain Marvel_

3.) _Iron Man_

4.) _Iron Man 2_

5.) _Thor_

6.) _The Avengers_

7.) _Thor: The Dark World_

8.)_ Iron Man 3_

9.) _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_

10.)_ Guardians of the Galaxy_

11.)_ Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2_

12.) _Avengers: Age of Ultron_

13.) _Ant-Man_

14.) _Captain America: Civil War_

15.) _Black Widow_

16.) _Black Panther_

17.) _Doctor Strange_

18.) _Thor: Ragnarok_

19.) _Ant-Man and the Wasp_

20. _Avengers: Infinity War_

21.)_ Avengers: Endgame_

22.) _Loki_

23.) _What If...?_

24.) _WandaVision_

25.) _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier









						Disney+ Unveils New MCU Timeline Order, Including WandaVision's Spot After Marvel's What If
					

Disney+ revealed their new timeline for the Marvel Cinematic Universe, placing What If...? in between both Loki and Wandavision.




					thedirect.com
				



_


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## RangerWickett

It was okay. For a pilot, I can be forgiving, but I think the writing and pacing was off. There wasn't really a character arc for anyone.


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## Paul Farquhar

It felt like a rushed gender swapped remake of Captain America I. I suspect one issue is the high cost of quality animation limiting the run time. But the conclusion seems to be swapping Steve and Peggy makes no real difference.

One thing touched on but not really gone into is Carter is both smarter and more ruthless than Rodgers. Judging by her accent her background is more privileged too. This might make her a better supersoldier, but also, by Erskine's standards, more corruptible.


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## MarkB

The one thing that seemed to come out of nowhere in this adaptation was the shield. In the movie there's a natural progression - Rogers first improvises a shield from a car door, then it gets incorporated into his stage costume, then once the Red Skull punches a dent in it he gets an upgrade.

In this version Howard Stark basically just thinks "hey, you know what would complete this ensemble? The world's most expensive shield!"


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## Tonguez

Paul Farquhar said:


> It felt like a rushed gender swapped remake of Captain America I. I suspect one issue is the high cost of quality animation limiting the run time. But the conclusion seems to be swapping Steve and Peggy makes no real difference.
> 
> One thing touched on but not really gone into is Carter is both smarter and more ruthless than Rodgers. Judging by her accent her background is more privileged too. This might make her a better supersoldier, but also, by Erskine's standards, more corruptible.




I'd say the gender swap of Captain America is rather the point of this What If story, especially as they've conceived the MCU versions. Though they did rush a lot of the story beats to condense the movie into the 30 minute episode.

Great point about Erskine serum though, the psychological effects were touched on in the recent Falcon & WS run so it will be interesting if they acknowledge that with Peggy too - maybe her being more brutal and killing more Nazis is a nod to her being a more ruthless person than Steve was. We'll have to see how she fairs in later episodes.




MarkB said:


> The one thing that seemed to come out of nowhere in this adaptation was the shield. In the movie there's a natural progression - Rogers first improvises a shield from a car door, then it gets incorporated into his stage costume, then once the Red Skull punches a dent in it he gets an upgrade.
> 
> In this version Howard Stark basically just thinks "hey, you know what would complete this ensemble? The world's most expensive shield!"



well, they did have all those weights embedded in the training room wall, maybe he got the idea  directly from that.

what I think more glaring was just how many Wonder Woman poses they give Captain Carter - standing on the statue, and the sword and sheild motif (sure nod to Excaliber but come on!)


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## Paul Farquhar

Tonguez said:


> I'd say the gender swap of Captain America is rather the point of this What If story



But "swapping the gender makes no difference" is surely a no-brainer in 2021?


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## Morrus

The Lizard Wizard said:


> I really enjoyed it, they can have a lot of fun with action sequences by doing things in animation. The fight scene with the fighter planes for example.



For me, I find it hard to get immersed in animated action scenes. They're too easy!

I think I have a scale:

Animated
Heavily CGI  (ie most Marvel flicks)
In-camera stunts (which can be enhanced with CGI but you are seeing what somebody actually did)

The last category, when it comes to watching a _Mission Impossible_ film where Tom Cruise insists on real stunts (and even doing many of them himself), or some of the incredible in-camera work that _Christopher Nolan_ does (when Nolan flips a truck in _The Dark Knight_ it's very different to when _F9_ flipped a CGI truck), is the stuff I really love to see and which really draw me in. I feel like I'm watching something happen.

Everybody's mileage varies, of course.


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## Janx

It was fine.  I liked how they managed to wrap it up to a mirrored conclusion that Cap missed out on 70 years.

Some of the voices were off.  They made a big deal about having the movie actors, but clearly not Chris Evans


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## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> But "swapping the gender makes no difference" is surely a no-brainer in 2021?




We _want_ it to be a no-brainer.  But, in the real world, it isn't, yet.  So, I can see making the point yet again.


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## Older Beholder

Morrus said:


> For me, I find it hard to get immersed in animated action scenes. They're too easy!
> 
> I think I have a scale:
> 
> Animated
> Heavily CGI  (ie most Marvel flicks)
> In-camera stunts (which can be enhanced with CGI but you are seeing what somebody actually did)




I remember you saying you find animation harder to get into.

I have an emotional disconnect with things that aren’t live action too. Stop motion is personally dislike.

But I have a soft spot for the cell shading look they’re using here. It’s probably not too surprising Disney are going to produce high quality animation.

Also I thought the pulp action /Indiana Jones feel worked well in animated form.


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## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> We _want_ it to be a no-brainer.  But, in the real world, it isn't, yet.  So, I can see making the point yet again.



Anyone too dumb to have not got the point by now isn't going to get their mind changed by this, and they didn't include any interesting ideas for the rest of us.


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## Morrus

The Lizard Wizard said:


> I remember you saying you find animation harder to get into.



Yeah, I know it's a me thing.


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## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> Anyone too dumb to have not got the point by now isn't going to get their mind changed by this, and they didn't include any interesting ideas for the rest of us.




It is really important to remember that the issue of sexism has _NOTHING_ to do with level of intelligence.

Cultural norms do not get made or maintained if they are not reinforced.  Only two of the MCU films (total 24 films over 13 years) have been led by women, and one became a poster child for misogynistic review-bombing.  Empirically, then, it perhaps isn't so much of a no-brainer yet.


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## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> It is really important to remember that the issue of sexism has _NOTHING_ to do with level of intelligence.
> 
> Cultural norms do not get made or maintained if they are not reinforced.  Only two of the MCU films (total 24 films over 13 years) have been led by women, and one became a poster child for misogynistic review-bombing.  Empirically, then, it perhaps isn't so much of a no-brainer yet.



But my point still stands irrespective of _why_ people are sexist. They aren't going to get their minds changed by anything. And an interesting plot is still needed irrespective of the gender of the protagonists.


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## Dannyalcatraz

You might not change the mind of someone who is already sexist, but you might just reach someone who is at the crossroads.

OTOH, people _can_ change, given the right context.


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## Stalker0

I do like the more ruthless approach with captain carter. It will be interesting if she is “more corruptible” in the long run.

im guessing not though. I think it’s more likely they go with “like Steve, Peggy has felt powerless most of her life, being a woman in a mans world. So she possesses similar humility to what Erskine was looking for, but was never considered due to being a woman”

the airplane scene was my favorite.

may least favorite was the shield, as it did feel completely out of left field, but in an animated short your going to have to trim things somewhat


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## trappedslider

I wonder what the next What if will be, based on the trailers I'm thinking it will be T'Challa as star lord.


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## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> I wonder what the next What if will be, based on the trailers I'm thinking it will be T'Challa as star lord.



Interesting. I wonder if they'll do that as "in this universe T'Challa is Ego's kid", or as "Yondu kidnapped the wrong kid".


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## Rabulias

I believe that _What If?_ episodes (like the comic book it is based on) will be self-contained and will not be revisited in an ongoing way. I doubt they will explore the super soldier serum effects on her beyond this.


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## RangerWickett

There was at least one shot in the trailers of Dr Strange meeting Captain Carter:


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## Morrus

Wow, she’s practically a Kryptonian! Leaping over castle walls, punching through stone walls, carrying and throwing car! They definitely upped the dosage on that serum!


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## Maxperson

Stalker0 said:


> I do like the more ruthless approach with captain carter. It will be interesting if she is “more corruptible” in the long run.
> 
> im guessing not though. I think it’s more likely they go with “like Steve, Peggy has felt powerless most of her life, being a woman in a mans world. So she possesses similar humility to what Erskine was looking for, but was never considered due to being a woman”
> 
> the airplane scene was my favorite.
> 
> may least favorite was the shield, as it did feel completely out of left field, but in an animated short your going to have to trim things somewhat



I liked the Iron Man nod with Stark making the battle suit for Rogers.  I didn't like Carter's uniform.  While in the MCU she's British instead of America, she was fighting for America while working for Americans with an American serum, etc.  Stark giving her the Captain Britain uniform seemed off to me.  

That sword she used at the end may have BEEN Excalibur.  We know Hydra was seeking artifacts and she was able to punch it into concrete and use it to slow herself down without so much as scratching the blade.


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## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> They aren't going to get their minds changed by anything.




Clearly, minds do change, or we'd still have the attitudes of the Dark Ages or earlier.


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## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> Clearly, minds do change, or we'd still have the attitudes of the Dark Ages or earlier.



Minds change as people die off and are replaced by new people.


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## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> Minds change as people die off and are replaced by new people.



Yeah. I've noticed that things tend to change more generationally.  As kids with new ideas grow up and teach it to their kids who then share the ideas, we get more and more people shifting direction.


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## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> Yeah. I've noticed that things tend to change more generationally.  As kids with new ideas grow up and teach it to their kids who then share the ideas, we get more and more people shifting direction.



Yeah, but that still means you have to put the new ideas out there.


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## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Yeah, but that still means you have to put the new ideas out there.



In every generation you have some people who are open to new ideas and willing to change, and some who will never change, no matter what. The people who can change pass on the new ideas to children, so even the children who will never change grow up with the ideas that where new when they where children.


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## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> Minds change as people die off and are replaced by new people.




And those new ideas come from... where, exactly?  

Consider - do you believe the same things you did when you were 5 years old?  No?  So, your mind... changed?

Do you still believe the same things you did when you were, say 18 years old?  In every detail?


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## HawaiiSteveO

That was fun, parts of it had real Saturday morning cartoon feel.

Cap with a sword ! Josh Lyman ! Tentacles ! What’s not to like ?

I should save these and watch on Saturday with a big bowl of junky cereal


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## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> And those new ideas come from... where, exactly?



The people who are capable of actually originating new ideas make up a very small fraction of the population.


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## trappedslider

HawaiiSteveO said:


> Josh Lyman !



just for that, you get my thumbs up....I see him now and all I can think is "cool/crazy college professor"



MarkB said:


> Interesting. I wonder if they'll do that as "in this universe T'Challa is Ego's kid", or as "Yondu kidnapped the wrong kid".



I'm betting wrong kid

EDIT: If I remember correctly, it's also one of the last things Chadwick did with marvel before his passing providing voice work.


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## Zaukrie

For years I thought pure capitalism was a great idea...now I don't. So, anecdotally, at least one person can change their mind. It boggles the mind anyone thinks people can't change their minds about big things.


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## Paul Farquhar

Zaukrie said:


> For years I thought pure capitalism was a great idea...now I don't. So, anecdotally, at least one person can change their mind. It boggles the mind anyone thinks people can't change their minds about big things.



Only the very intelligent revaluate their ideas when confronted with contrary evidence. Most people filter out any evidence that doesn't reinforce their established ideas.


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## Morrus

Maxperson said:


> I liked the Iron Man nod with Stark making the battle suit for Rogers.  I didn't like Carter's uniform.  While in the MCU she's British instead of America, she was fighting for America while working for Americans with an American serum, etc.  Stark giving her the Captain Britain uniform seemed off to me.



It’s the army, not the Borg!


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## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> The people who are capable of actually originating new ideas make up a very small fraction of the population.




So, that actually argues in exact opposition to the idea that people don't change their minds.  

If only a small number of people actually originate new ideas, then _everyone else_ must change their minds for those ideas to become widespread.  And... lots of ideas have become widespread.  Ergo, there's much mind-changing going on.


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## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> So, that actually argues in exact opposition to the idea that people don't change their minds.
> 
> If only a small number of people actually originate new ideas, then _everyone else_ must change their minds for those ideas to become widespread.  And... lots of ideas have become widespread.  Ergo, there's much mind-changing going on.



Some people originate ideas, some people adopt those ideas, and some people never change their ideas, no matter what.


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## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> Only the very intelligent revaluate their ideas when confronted with contrary evidence. Most people filter out any evidence that doesn't reinforce their established ideas.




Ah, but that process has little to do with what we colloquially consider "intelligence".  In fact, it is largely independentof intelligence - the ability to re-evaluate precepts is more an _emotional_ task than anything else.


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## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> Ah, but that process has little to do with what we colloquially consider "intelligence".



It has everything to do with what I consider intelligence. Intelligent people evaluate evidence objectively, and change their views accordingly. It is the opposite of an emotional response, which evaluates evidence based on pre-existing prejudices. The very stubborn and the very stupid have a very strong correlation.


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## HawaiiSteveO




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## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> Some people originate ideas, some people adopt those ideas, and some people never change their ideas, no matter what.




Sure.  And your evidence for that is?

Or is this an idea you've taken on, and will never change, no matter what?


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## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> Sure.  And your evidence for that is?
> 
> Or is this an idea you've taken on, and will never change, no matter what?



I never made any claim to intelligence myself, although there is plenty of evidence on this forum for people who will never change there ideas, no matter what.


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## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> It has everything to do with what I consider intelligence. Intelligent people evaluate evidence objectively...




Oh, is this going to be a No True Scotsman? Anyone who _seems_ intelligent by other measures, but who doesn't always evaluate evidence objectively, wasn't _actually_ intelligent at all?


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## Zaukrie

HawaiiSteveO said:


>



sorry! I messed up by adding to this......maybe we can get back to What if?


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## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> Oh, is this going to be a No True Scotsman? Anyone who _seems_ intelligent by other measures, but who doesn't always evaluate evidence objectively, wasn't _actually_ intelligent at all?



Indeed. Any idiot can learn calculus or 27 languages, just look at a computer. That is not a sign of intelligence.


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## Morrus

I largely agree with Paul here. While some people are willing to change their opinions, many people just dig in when presented with contrary evidence. It’s the few that do who slowly drive change, shifting cultural values generation by generation.


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## Umbran

Morrus said:


> I largely agree with Paul here. While some people are willing to change their opinions, many people just dig in when presented with contrary evidence.




So, with respect, Morrus, I already noted that this is largely an _emotional_ issue.  Of course, just presenting someone with evidence does nothing to overcome emotional resistance.  "The nail didn't move when I used a screwdriver on it," does not mean the nail cannot be moved.

And, "they don't change their mind when presented with contrary evidence" is not the same as, "cannot or will not ever change their mind".

Is it _really hard_ to change some people's minds?  Yes.  But accepting it as impossible is self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## Morrus

Umbran said:


> So, with respect, Morrus, I already noted that this is largely an _emotional_ issue.  Of course, just presenting someone with evidence does nothing to overcome emotional resistance.  "The nail didn't move when I used a screwdriver on it," does not mean the nail cannot be moved.
> 
> And, "they don't change their mind when presented with contrary evidence" is not the same as, "cannot or will not ever change their mind".
> 
> Is it _really hard_ to change some people's minds?  Yes.  But accepting it as impossible is self-fulfilling prophecy.



I think that’s what I said.


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## Umbran

Morrus said:


> I think that’s what I said.




Maybe it is what you meant to say, but the words... don't speak to how or why minds do or do not change.  So no, you didn't say what I said.

Edit to add:  It has little to do with the _kind of person_. It isn't like Person A will never change their mind, and Person B is always open to new ideas. Each of us is a mixed bag, and our willingness to change has to do with the topic, the person's emotional link to that topic, and how the new idea is positioned and presented. Each of us will thus be stubborn on some things, and easy to move on other things.


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## Morrus

Umbran said:


> Maybe it is what you meant to say, but the words... don't speak to how or why minds do or do not change.  So no, you didn't say what I said.



Well Ok then.


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## Rabulias

RangerWickett said:


> There was at least one shot in the trailers of Dr Strange meeting Captain Carter:
> View attachment 142077



I had not seen that! Maybe they will tie the various alternate universes together in some way, especially as we approach the release date of _Spider-Man: No Way Home_ and next year's Dr Strange film.


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## Tonguez

Maxperson said:


> I liked the Iron Man nod with Stark making the battle suit for Rogers.  I didn't like Carter's uniform.  While in the MCU she's British instead of America, she was fighting for America while working for Americans with an American serum, etc.  Stark giving her the Captain Britain uniform seemed off to me.



I think making a Union Jack uniform and shield is a very Stark thing to do, he’d do it partly to amuse himself and partly to as a gesture to Peggy - same as when he was happy to go through with the procedure when Peggy jumped into the converter.

As to the gender not making any difference, it was one 30 minute pilot. We know from trailers Peggy will be back so I’m willing to wait til then to see how things go.
Plus I’m not sure things haven’t changed - Peggy got the Teseract, Dominic Stark made a 1940s Iron Man suit, Bucky never became the Winter Soldier and Red Skull didnt go to Vormir. Small changes that each create new timelines in the multiverse


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## Gradine

Morrus said:


> I largely agree with Paul here. While some people are willing to change their opinions, many people just dig in when presented with contrary evidence. It’s the few that do who slowly drive change, shifting cultural values generation by generation.



What you're referring to is the Backfire Effect, which had a moment several years ago (The Oatmeal did a big comic that made the rounds, Adam Ruins Everything also promoted it) but is generally considered to be a very rare phenomenon after numerous attempts to replicate the original experiment failed to produce much of any examples of it actually happening.

People can be reluctant to accept evidence that contradicts their previous beliefs, but the digging in and shutting down hypothesized by the Backfire Effect is actually exceedingly rare


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## Gradine

Also I just watched the first episode and I thought it was rad as hell


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## Dannyalcatraz

Gradine said:


> What you're referring to is the Backfire Effect, which had a moment several years ago (The Oatmeal did a big comic that made the rounds, Adam Ruins Everything also promoted it) but is generally considered to be a very rare phenomenon after numerous attempts to replicate the original experiment failed to produce much of any examples of it actually happening.
> 
> People can be reluctant to accept evidence that contradicts their previous beliefs, but the digging in and shutting down hypothesized by the Backfire Effect is actually exceedingly rare



I think it’s context dependent: it’s relatively common in alternative dispute resolution, ESPECIALLY in family law mediations.  Every last one of my instructors had tales of when mediations suddenly imploded when at least one party shut down, sending the case back into the courts.

Hell- I’ve seen it in my own family in particular (pre-2016) political discussions.  AFAIK, the opinions expressed then have NOT changed, despite presentations of actual evidence contra her beliefs.  And this is in someone I KNOW can change her mind because I’ve seen her public mea culpas.


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## trappedslider




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## Maxperson

Gradine said:


> People can be reluctant to accept evidence that contradicts their previous beliefs, but the digging in and shutting down hypothesized by the Backfire Effect is actually exceedingly rare



I'm pretty sure we're seeing it on a large scale with all those who are digging in and refusing to be vaccinated, even after nearly being killed by Covid or having close friends/family killed by Covid.


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## Tonguez

Maxperson said:


> I'm pretty sure we're seeing it on a large scale with all those who are digging in and refusing to be vaccinated, even after nearly being killed by Covid or having close friends/family killed by Covid.



Is it the same phenomena where people see a thread topic but are compelled to ignore it in favour of further derailment?

have minds changed so much that the thread topic is now irrelevant?


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## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> I'm pretty sure we're seeing it on a large scale with all those who are digging in and refusing to be vaccinated, even after nearly being killed by Covid or having close friends/family killed by Covid.



But we're also seeing some of them changing their minds after such close calls or affected family members.


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## Janx

So, what about Winter Soldier?  Buckey didn't get captured or lose an arm.  Rogers wasn't held captive for very long (was guessing he would take James's place in history).

What If Zemo Needed a New Plan?


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## MarkB

Janx said:


> So, what about Winter Soldier?  Buckey didn't get captured or lose an arm.  Rogers wasn't held captive for very long (was guessing he would take James's place in history).
> 
> What If Zemo Needed a New Plan?



In this continuity Zemo was captured before he ever got a chance to experiment with Erskine's formula.

But Zemo presumably had the same chance to infiltrate Hydra into SHIELD, and access to the blood drawn from Carter, so he may have done some experimentation later on. Quite possibly Rogers would have volunteered for such an experiment.


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## billd91

Love the episode. As an old fan of the Captain Britain character, he only thing that would have nudged it a little higher would have been Peggy taking on the name Captain Britain. Though I can certainly understand staying away from that name if Marvel is batting around ideas of using the characters from the Captain Britain stores in the future since they are so different.


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## Janx

MarkB said:


> In this continuity Zemo was captured before he ever got a chance to experiment with Erskine's formula.
> 
> But Zemo presumably had the same chance to infiltrate Hydra into SHIELD, and access to the blood drawn from Carter, so he may have done some experimentation later on. Quite possibly Rogers would have volunteered for such an experiment.



I was thinking Baron Helmut Zemo, the guy who used Winter Solider to tear apart the Avengers in revenge for Sokovia.  That's not the science guy.


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## Gradine

Maxperson said:


> I'm pretty sure we're seeing it on a large scale with all those who are digging in and refusing to be vaccinated, even after nearly being killed by Covid or having close friends/family killed by Covid.



It's rarer than you think; there are many examples of these folks changing their tunes after close calls/deaths of loved ones.


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## Gradine

The problem comes from the fact that these big splashy new findings always make news, but the numerous failed attempts to replicate those results never do. See also: the Stanford Prison Experiment


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## MarkB

Janx said:


> I was thinking Baron Helmut Zemo, the guy who used Winter Solider to tear apart the Avengers in revenge for Sokovia.  That's not the science guy.



Sorry, getting my villains mixed up.


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## Janx

MarkB said:


> Sorry, getting my villains mixed up.



happens to the best of us 

I think that episode negating 2 MCU movies might be fascinating (Winter Soldier and Civil War)

It's plausible Avengers 1&2 still happen. 
Sokovia could still get pancaked.
The Accords would be written
Baron Zemo could still be pissed.

Peggy is NOT Steve Rogers.  She might choose the same side, on signing, but she does not have his moral compass for WHY she'd do it. As noted by how much more brutal she was as Captain Carter.  She probably isn't worthy to wield Mjolnir. Not like Steve was.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

It was fun, though I had to adjust to the art style of the animation, and there were the typical crazy stunts Live-Action only tries with CGI and blue screen. And yeah, a little too much "Woman Woman" in some of her stunts and poses. The only thing that really threw me when I heard/saw it was something small. They are at a point when Atomic power research is still in secret and maybe not even being done by the US yet, but the moment when one of the characters asked if the Tesseract was nuclear was way out of place. I am not even sure when common terms switched from calling things atomic to calling them nuclear, but it sure wasn't during the war, especially not by some soldier. Nuclear is such a common term to use today, but it was still a bad slip to make it all the way through the process and into the finished product.

As for the other 8 episodes of season 1, some plot/title info is officially known for some of them. We know T'Challa as Star Lord is episode 2 and a Loki episode is episode 3. The Zombie teases are for episode 8 and Doctor Strange is episode 9. We also know one episode is about "Party Thor", but not which one between 4-7. Boseman is also credited for voice work for 4 episodes, though whether all of them are in the first season, or some will be in season 2. Since there being 18 episodes was announced quite a while ago, some of his work could be stretched out by Marvel. A couple of days ago, I saw a list of titles/descriptions for all 9 season 1 episodes, but now I can't find it again, but if I do, I will put that in spoiler tags when I post it.


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## Tonguez

billd91 said:


> Love the episode. As an old fan of the Captain Britain character, he only thing that would have nudged it a little higher would have been Peggy taking on the name Captain Britain. Though I can certainly understand staying away from that name if Marvel is batting around ideas of using the characters from the Captain Britain stores in the future since they are so different.




Agent Braddock was named dropped in Endgame as a 1970s Shield Agent, so we might yet get to see Captain Britain in action, having a new Excalibur team appear in future could be fun.



Janx said:


> happens to the best of us
> 
> Peggy is NOT Steve Rogers.  She might choose the same side, on signing, but she does not have his moral compass for WHY she'd do it. As noted by how much more brutal she was as Captain Carter.  She probably isn't worthy to wield Mjolnir. Not like Steve was.



I'm still not sure what it means to be Worthy from Mjolnirs perspective, Steve and Vision are nothing like Thor, Even Party Thor gets to wield the hammer.


----------



## Janx

Tonguez said:


> I'm still not sure what it means to be Worthy from Mjolnirs perspective, Steve and Vision are nothing like Thor, Even Party Thor gets to wield the hammer.



Oddly enough, I suspect Steve and Vision are the Archtype of worthiness and it is Thor who is skirting the limit.


----------



## Deset Gled

trappedslider said:


> The order for the MCU now stands: ...
> 
> 3.) _Iron Man_
> 
> 4.) _Iron Man 2_
> 
> 5.) _Thor_
> 
> 6.) _The Avengers_




Shouldn't "The Incredible Hulk" be in here?  I always thought that movie was considered canon.  The actor switched, but it's events still happened in the MCU.


----------



## Rabulias

Deset Gled said:


> Shouldn't "The Incredible Hulk" be in here?  I always thought that movie was considered canon.  The actor switched, but it's events still happened in the MCU.



I think that list is only the Disney films. Note the Spider-Man films are not included either.


----------



## billd91

Rabulias said:


> I think that list is only the Disney films. Note the Spider-Man films are not included either.



Yeah, the Incredible Hulk is a bit of a weird one since it was Marvel, but distributed via Universal. That's why they can't include it on Disney+'s timeline. So it's MCU canon, but still administratively separate (with rights and relationships complicated enough to keep any stand-alone Hulk sequel off the table).


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Deset Gled said:


> Shouldn't "The Incredible Hulk" be in here?  I always thought that movie was considered canon.  The actor switched, but it's events still happened in the MCU.




According to Disney/Marvel, the MCU started with the first Iron Man movie. Obviously, there were other movies before that, but none of them are MCU canon. unless they decide to bring elements back in, like how Abomination is going to show up again, played by the same actor.

And, of course, with the birth of the Multiverse, people can now argue endlessly about where in the MCU all other films with Marvel characters could fit.


----------



## billd91

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> According to Disney/Marvel, the MCU started with the first Iron Man movie. Obviously, there were other movies before that, but none of them are MCU canon. unless they decide to bring elements back in, like how Abomination is going to show up again, played by the same actor.
> 
> And, of course, with the birth of the Multiverse, people can now argue endlessly about where in the MCU all other films with Marvel characters could fit.



Point of clarification: 
The Incredible Hulk, the MCU movie that released in 2008 after Iron Man, is the one that most of us seem to be talking about here. Hulk, released in 2003, directed by Ang Lee, and starring Eric Bana, would not be considered canonical. But The Incredible Hulk, released in 2008 a couple of months after Iron Man, directed by Louis Leterrier, and starring Ed Norton, would still be canonical.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

billd91 said:


> Point of clarification:
> The Incredible Hulk, the MCU movie that released in 2008 after Iron Man, is the one that most of us seem to be talking about here. Hulk, released in 2003, directed by Ang Lee, and starring Eric Bana, would not be considered canonical. But The Incredible Hulk, released in 2008 a couple of months after Iron Man, directed by Louis Leterrier, and starring Ed Norton, would still be canonical.




I have never even watched that version because I had always understood it was not part of the MCU and not really worth it either.   lol


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I have never even watched that version because I had always understood it was not part of the MCU and not really worth it either.   lol



Nortons Hulk is directly referenced in the Avengers movie when Banner talks about trying to put a bullet in his head but “the other guy” just spat the bullet out. The abomination and General Ross are the other links. 
The movie isnt as bad as people make out, its better than IM 3 or Thor 3 but yeah the rights are weird. 
Hulk should have been a monster movie, unfortunately they tried to make him a superhero instead


----------



## trappedslider

Tonguez said:


> Nortons Hulk is directly referenced in the Avengers movie when Banner talks about trying to put a bullet in his head but “the other guy” just spat the bullet out. The abomination and General Ross are the other links.
> The movie isnt as bad as people make out, its better than IM 3 or Thor 3 but yeah the rights are weird.
> Hulk should have been a monster movie, unfortunately they tried to make him a superhero instead



Indeed the abomination is even in Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings.


----------



## Deset Gled

Tonguez said:


> Nortons Hulk is directly referenced in the Avengers movie when Banner talks about trying to put a bullet in his head but “the other guy” just spat the bullet out. The abomination and General Ross are the other links.
> The movie isnt as bad as people make out, its better than IM 3 or Thor 3 but yeah the rights are weird.




Incredible Hulk also has an appearance by Tony Stark in the post credits scene.

I remember liking Incredible Hulk when it came out. I think it's certainly on par with some of the other MCU fillers. But I have to admit I haven't seen it in over a decade (a decade? Wow.).


----------



## embee

Back to the main topic... Overall, I liked it much in the same way that I like Breyer's French Vanilla ice cream. It's good. Not the greatest. Not breaking any new ground. But definitely good. 

The animation was very good. It could have stood to have been stretched out a bit but there are budget constraints, which I understand. 

Storywise, I eyerolled fairly heavily when Red Skull went full Rasputin and freed some Great Old One who we won't name because that would cost money from its crystal prison from beyond the stars.


----------



## Rabulias

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And, of course, with the birth of the Multiverse, people can now argue endlessly about where in the MCU all other films with Marvel characters could fit.



Not to mention time travel ("Let's see, part of _Avengers: Endgame _goes here, some of it goes in between these two movies, another part goes in the middle of that movie...")


----------



## Janx

embee said:


> Storywise, I eyerolled fairly heavily when Red Skull went full Rasputin and freed some Great Old One who we won't name because that would cost money from its crystal prison from beyond the stars.



That was actually in line with an Agents of Shield plot line.  it turned out that Hydra worshipped this extra dimensional monster and everything they did was about bringing it to Earth someday.

Kind of a jumped the monster shark tank season.


----------



## Blue

trappedslider said:


> The order for the MCU now stands:
> 
> 1.) _Captain America: The First Avenger_
> 2.) _Captain Marvel_
> 3.) _Iron Man_
> 4.) _Iron Man 2_
> 5.) _Thor_
> 6.) _The Avengers_
> 7.) _Thor: The Dark World_
> 8.)_ Iron Man 3_
> 9.) _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_
> 10.)_ Guardians of the Galaxy_
> 11.)_ Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2_
> 12.) _Avengers: Age of Ultron_
> 13.) _Ant-Man_
> 14.) _Captain America: Civil War_
> 15.) _Black Widow_
> 16.) _Black Panther_
> 17.) _Doctor Strange_
> 18.) _Thor: Ragnarok_
> 19.) _Ant-Man and the Wasp_
> 20. _Avengers: Infinity War_
> 21.)_ Avengers: Endgame_
> 22.) _Loki_
> 23.) _What If...?_
> 24.) _WandaVision_
> 25.) _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Disney+ Unveils New MCU Timeline Order, Including WandaVision's Spot After Marvel's What If
> 
> 
> Disney+ revealed their new timeline for the Marvel Cinematic Universe, placing What If...? in between both Loki and Wandavision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thedirect.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _



Have to disagree with the placement of Loki.  That's what you want to watch before it, but in timeline it's right after #6, Avengers.  It's just in a separate timeline to the primary one.

Or at least that's where it starts.  Much of it may be orthogonal to the normal timeline.


----------



## Morrus

Yeah. _Loki_ follows straight on after _The Avengers_.

And _What If?_ is random placements. The first episode is an alternate version of #1.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

It's just occurred to me that Captain Carter slicing and dicing an elder god with a sword was repeating a Conan feat.


----------



## trappedslider

Blue said:


> Have to disagree with the placement of Loki.  That's what you want to watch before it, but in timeline it's right after #6, Avengers.  It's just in a separate timeline to the primary one.
> 
> Or at least that's where it starts.  Much of it may be orthogonal to the normal timeline.






Morrus said:


> Yeah. _Loki_ follows straight on after _The Avengers_.
> 
> And _What If?_ is random placements. The first episode is an alternate version of #1.



take it up with Disney.


----------



## Morrus

trappedslider said:


> take it up with Disney.



No? I’ll just have a conversation here, if that’s OK with you.


----------



## embee

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's just occurred to me that Captain Carter slicing and dicing an elder god with a sword was repeating a Conan feat.



One would think that being trapped in an extradimensional space with an eldritch horror would have returned Captain Carter insane. Kind of a "lose all sanity points" event.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Loki *starts* after the first Avengers movie, but *ends* after Endgame, so if someone were to foolishly watch Loki before all the other movies, they would be spoiling all sorts of stuff from the other Avengers movies. Plus, we need the emotional investment in Loki from watching all his movie appearances, and especially his death, first, or the story of the variant Loki in the series is greatly diminished.


----------



## Morrus

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Loki *starts* after the first Avengers movie, but *ends* after Endgame,



We know it starts right after the first Avengers movie, goes back to the time of Pompeii and one point, jumps to the end of time, and then ends ... somewhen (not sure)? It definitely spans the entire MCU timeline though.


----------



## MarkB

embee said:


> One would think that being trapped in an extradimensional space with an eldritch horror would have returned Captain Carter insane. Kind of a "lose all sanity points" event.



I had the impression that essentially no time passed for her - she went in swinging, and came back out moments later from her perspective in a spray of chopped tentacles.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> We know it starts right after the first Avengers movie, goes back to the time of Pompeii and one point, jumps to the end of time, and then ends ... somewhen (not sure)? It definitely spans the entire MCU timeline though.




That "somewhen" is definitely the start of the multiverse, which when plugged into the linear timeline, is after Endgame and should be at the same time as the end of WandaVision, because I am sure those voices of her children that Wanda hears in the end credits scene are them calling from an alternate timeline, which did not exist when she fled the town, before she went off to that cabin to study. But since Loki is all over the place, it does not have a real spot in the timeline like everything else. We have to place it based on any spoilers it contains from the movies, which again, is why I would never tell anyone to watch it until they had at least watched all the movies that include Loki.

Now, as for episode 2 about Star Lord T'Challa, according to interviews with Kevin Keige, Chadwick was so into the whole voice work stuff that his episode is going to influence Black Panther 2 and it sounds like there are extra voice work clips that may get used in the movie. So we might actually have an explanation in his voice in the movie for why T'Challa does not physically appear.


----------



## trappedslider

well, that one had a very big impact on the verse.


----------



## Davies

Having just watched that episode, I can confirm that his work here is excellent, demonstrating wonderful comedic talent. Of course, that just makes me that much sadder that he's gone.


----------



## Ryujin

"What if..." made me remember the comic. It's not just "What if 'x' happened instead", but rather like going to the Chinese drive-through in "Dude, Where's My Car?" "And then... And then... And then..." I did enjoy it very much though.


----------



## Tonguez

Episode 2 What if T'challa became Starlord
Hmmm not sure I enjoyed this episode as much as the first one, nice range of characters but less overall action and a bit of implausible perfection. No spoilers yet....


----------



## MarkB

Hmm. An interesting take, I guess, but I'm not sure it does either T'Challa or the Guardians any favours.

EDIT: 



Spoiler



And why is this character even called Starlord? Peter took that name because it's what his mother used to call him. T'Challa, if he went for anything along those lines, would've been Star Prince.


----------



## embee

MarkB said:


> I had the impression that essentially no time passed for her - she went in swinging, and came back out moments later from her perspective in a spray of chopped tentacles.



I got that too. But...

She followed some incomprehensible being of limitless malevolence into its dimension where time and space mean nothing. In those scenarios, there is no happy ending for the hero. Even if they save the world, it comes at the cost of their sanity. When the captain of the _Alert _stopped Cthulhu, he wound up insane afterward. 

I'm sorry but there isn't enough superserum in the multiverse to keep someone from going insane after tangling with one of the many unfathomable horrors that lurk outside of the bounds of our reality in timeless undeath, waiting for the time when the stars are right again and rents in the fabric of our delicate exist tear open, freeing them from their prison beyond the stars.


----------



## MarkB

embee said:


> I got that too. But...
> 
> She followed some incomprehensible being of limitless malevolence into its dimension where time and space mean nothing. In those scenarios, there is no happy ending for the hero. Even if they save the world, it comes at the cost of their sanity. When the captain of the _Alert _stopped Cthulhu, he wound up insane afterward.
> 
> I'm sorry but there isn't enough superserum in the multiverse to keep someone from going insane after tangling with one of the many unfathomable horrors that lurk outside of the bounds of our reality in timeless undeath, waiting for the time when the stars are right again and rents in the fabric of our delicate exist tear open, freeing them from their prison beyond the stars.



I mean, it was a thing with tentacles. That's all we know.

I'm sure the Red Skull was going for "timeless unfathomable being from beyond the universe", but there's no guarantee that's what he actually dialled.


----------



## Rune

embee said:


> I got that too. But...
> 
> She followed some incomprehensible being of limitless malevolence into its dimension where time and space mean nothing. In those scenarios, there is no happy ending for the hero. Even if they save the world, it comes at the cost of their sanity. When the captain of the _Alert _stopped Cthulhu, he wound up insane afterward.
> 
> I'm sorry but there isn't enough superserum in the multiverse to keep someone from going insane after tangling with one of the many unfathomable horrors that lurk outside of the bounds of our reality in timeless undeath, waiting for the time when the stars are right again and rents in the fabric of our delicate exist tear open, freeing them from their prison beyond the stars.



There’s no reason to assume she’s still sane, just because she comes out coherent. 

Although, if her personality was already highly adaptable to unusual situations, the superserum would heighten that trait, I would think. And frankly, the sanity-fraying aspect of cosmic horror doesn’t make much sense to me, anyway. People’s minds adapt to things they can’t understand _all the time_. 

Also, why does Stephen Strange get a pass on sanity if Captain Carter can’t handle it?


----------



## embee

Rune said:


> Also, why does Stephen Strange get a pass on sanity if Captain Carter can’t handle it?



Who says he does?

After all, it is called "Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of *MADNESS!!!!"*


----------



## trappedslider

Rune said:


> Also, why does Stephen Strange get a pass on sanity if Captain Carter can’t handle it?



Also, why does a portal with tentacles = Lovecraftian?


----------



## Ryujin

trappedslider said:


> Also, why does a portal with tentacles = Lovecraftian?



By default, I would think so. Seems that Marvel is more forgiving to its heroes than either Lovecraft or Howard were.


----------



## embee

Ok... so there's the Sacred Timeline. And anything that diverges from the Sacred Timeline gets pruned. And anyone pruned goes to the End of Time.

One would assume that Captain Carter and T'Challa Starlord are Variants.

So shouldn't they be at the End of Time? Or have they been eaten by Alioth? Or have they foiled the TVA's attempts at pruning?


----------



## MarkB

embee said:


> Ok... so there's the Sacred Timeline. And anything that diverges from the Sacred Timeline gets pruned. And anyone pruned goes to the End of Time.
> 
> One would assume that Captain Carter and T'Challa Starlord are Variants.
> 
> So shouldn't they be at the End of Time? Or have they been eaten by Alioth? Or have they foiled the TVA's attempts at pruning?



I think you may have missed the point. There is no Sacred Timeline anymore. Now there's the multiverse, and these are some of the results.


----------



## Janx

embee said:


> Ok... so there's the Sacred Timeline. And anything that diverges from the Sacred Timeline gets pruned. And anyone pruned goes to the End of Time.
> 
> One would assume that Captain Carter and T'Challa Starlord are Variants.
> 
> So shouldn't they be at the End of Time? Or have they been eaten by Alioth? Or have they foiled the TVA's attempts at pruning?



from a certain perspective, yes and no.

Pre end of Loki, all variants and bits that would have caused variants were pruned.  So the moment Peggy decided to stay in the room, right then, time was stopped and that Peggy got pruned.  She prolly didn't last long.  Nor did young T'Challa get scooped up, because the variant was Ego knocking up somebody else, and that's what got pruned.

After end of Loki season 1, all those moments were allowed to progress and poof Peggy got Power and T'Challa ended up with Yondu.


----------



## Rune

embee said:


> Ok... so there's the Sacred Timeline. And anything that diverges from the Sacred Timeline gets pruned. And anyone pruned goes to the End of Time.
> 
> One would assume that Captain Carter and T'Challa Starlord are Variants.
> 
> So shouldn't they be at the End of Time? Or have they been eaten by Alioth? Or have they foiled the TVA's attempts at pruning?



As near as I can tell, 



Spoiler: Spoiler for the Loki series



When Sylvie kills He Who Remains and destroys the TVA, she is outside of time. The resulting multiversal branches are occurring at all points throughout time as they always have/will. From the point of view of anyone outside of time (like the new/old Kang-led TVA*), these branches (and their resulting branches, and so on…infinitely) are happening simultaneously and are thus far too numerous to prune.

*Which can exist outside of time in a different form than the original(?) TVA because it’s variant origins were rooted within time(s).



Put more simply, at this point, all variant timelines that have or will have ever existed (outside the so-called “sacred” timeline) have never been pruned. Even though they also all have been.


----------



## Ryujin

Causation is only a paradox in linear time


----------



## Janx

Saw the latest episode with T'Challa.

Good to see Chadwick Boseman one more time.

But it felt like a huge suck up to how awesome T'Challa was.  They literally sat around talking about awesome he is. The universe/galaxy is actually better, much better with T'Challa as Starlord. Even Wakanda was fine with him gone.

I don't want to over emphasize that, it just stood out at how much time they spent on that, which went more than just showing ways he's better than Peter Quill (who the showed mopping at a McJob).


----------



## Gradine

Re: Peggy
The super serum doesn't stop aging, and Peggy clearly hasn't aged much of if at all. My guess would be a "time moves differently" situation, so I doubt she spent nearly as much time on the other side as it would seem. 

I mean, how much time did Janet spend in the quantum zone without any notable impact on her sanity?


----------



## billd91

Two episodes in and I’m really enjoying the series. It really captures much of the fanciful awesomeness of the What If…? comics.


----------



## Stalker0

Janx said:


> Saw the latest episode with T'Challa.
> 
> Good to see Chadwick Boseman one more time.
> 
> But it felt like a huge suck up to how awesome T'Challa was.  They literally sat around talking about awesome he is. The universe/galaxy is actually better, much better with T'Challa as Starlord. Even Wakanda was fine with him gone.
> 
> I don't want to over emphasize that, it just stood out at how much time they spent on that, which went more than just showing ways he's better than Peter Quill (who the showed mopping at a McJob).



hehe no kidding, he literally convinced Thanos not to snap half the universe!

I did enjoy it though, because really..... Quill sucks


----------



## Umbran

embee said:


> I got that too. But...
> 
> She followed some incomprehensible being of limitless malevolence into its dimension where time and space mean nothing. In those scenarios, there is no happy ending for the hero. Even if they save the world, it comes at the cost of their sanity. When the captain of the _Alert _stopped Cthulhu, he wound up insane afterward.




The major difference being... this is not the Lovecraft Universe.  It is the Marvel Universe.  It is _not_ a universe of cosmic horror.  It lacks the basic precept that humans are inconsequential.  Quite the opposite, in fact, the Marvel Universe is one of humanism, elevating the potential and agency of the characters, rather than starting from a position that their actions mean nothing.  

So... it was a giant tentacle monster.  Dangerous.  Maybe a threat to the world.  But not a thing that drives true heroes mad.


----------



## Tonguez

Stalker0 said:


> hehe no kidding, he literally convinced Thanos not to snap half the universe!
> 
> I did enjoy it though, because really..... Quill sucks



Whats terrifying is what Dairy Queen janitor Quill might become if he gets the power of Ego.
The Collector became a major villain who has collected (killed?) Hela, Thor, Captain America and Malekith. Now we have Ego-Quill rising to power without the anchor of Yondu - is he going to be the big bad of the metaplot?


----------



## Umbran

embee said:


> Ok... so there's the Sacred Timeline. And anything that diverges from the Sacred Timeline gets pruned. And anyone pruned goes to the End of Time.
> 
> One would assume that Captain Carter and T'Challa Starlord are Variants.
> 
> So shouldn't they be at the End of Time? Or have they been eaten by Alioth? Or have they foiled the TVA's attempts at pruning?




This takes place in the universe after the death of He Who Remains.  There is no more sacred timeline. There's a bazillion branches to reality, and the TVA, under new management, is now unable or has not yet managed to prune them all.  Presumably Season 2 includes Loki keeping it that way.


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> ... is he going to be the big bad of the metaplot?




I am not sure there is going to be a metaplot at all.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> I don't want to over emphasize that, it just stood out at how much time they spent on that, which went more than just showing ways he's better than Peter Quill (who the showed mopping at a McJob).




Yes, well, in a half-hour episode, sometimes you need the blunt force of the direct and explicitly stated contrast - original Quill talked himself up, bragged, called himself Starlord, and folks dismissed him as a fool (because at the start of his movie, he is a fool).  This is contrasted with T'Challa, who is no fool, is awesome, and everyone knows it, but he's humble about it, and tries to say he's not a lord..

And yeah, it looks like the universe is better off... until Ego finds Quill, and, well, we don't get to see how that ends, but it may not be pretty.


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> Yes, well, in a half-hour episode, sometimes you need the blunt force of the direct and explicitly stated contrast - original Quill talked himself up, bragged, called himself Starlord, and folks dismissed him as a fool (because at the start of his movie, he is a fool).  This is contrasted with T'Challa, who is no fool, is awesome, and everyone knows it, but he's humble about it, and tries to say he's not a lord..
> 
> And yeah, it looks like the universe is better off... until Ego finds Quill, and, well, we don't get to see how that ends, but it may not be pretty.



The big plot hole for me is that T’Challa is the son of the king of Wakanda, his responsibility wasnt just to family it was to the People of Wakanda, so even if he thought his family had been killed in a war, a truely awesome T’Challa would have returned to Earth to try and find any survivors. His choosing to remain in the stars was selfishness - but the story ignores that and instead outright portrays him as a near perfect paragon


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> The big plot hole for me is that T’Challa is the son of the king of Wakanda, his responsibility wasnt just to family it was to the People of Wakanda, so even if he thought his family had been killed in a war, a truely awesome T’Challa would have returned to Earth to try and find any survivors. His choosing to remain in the stars was selfishness - but the story ignores that and instead outright portrays him as a near perfect paragon




Wow.  Super judgey.

And, maybe rather missing the point of the Black Panther film, in which T'Challa learns that being too focused only on Wakanda is, in fact, _a flaw_.

This T'Challa's indoctrination in "Wakanda Before All Else" _stopped_ when he was a boy. He then chooses to take on other responsibilities, and makes good on them. His blood kin are not somehow more deserving of his aid than anyone else in the galaxy. His home country and planet are not somehow more deserving than any other worlds. What does it matter which people in need he helps, so long as he's helping people?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

embee said:


> When the captain of the _Alert _stopped Cthulhu, he wound up insane afterward.



The reason GOOs cause insanity is the character can't cope with cosmic insignificance. Some people (Conan for example) aren't bothered by that. "Okay, so what's for supper?".


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> Wow.  Super judgey.
> 
> And, maybe rather missing the point of the Black Panther film, in which T'Challa learns that being too focused only on Wakanda is, in fact, _a flaw_.
> 
> This T'Challa's indoctrination in "Wakanda Before All Else" _stopped_ when he was a boy. He then chooses to take on other responsibilities, and makes good on them. His blood kin are not somehow more deserving of his aid than anyone else in the galaxy. His home country and planet are not somehow more deserving than any other worlds. What does it matter which people in need he helps, so long as he's helping people?



I think it works both ways. One T'Challa is too focused on Wakanda, the other not enough. Either way the character is a paragon who does a lot of good, but remains human by being not quite perfect.


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> Wow.  Super judgey.
> 
> And, maybe rather missing the point of the Black Panther film, in which T'Challa learns that being too focused only on Wakanda is, in fact, _a flaw_.
> 
> This T'Challa's indoctrination in "Wakanda Before All Else" _stopped_ when he was a boy. He then chooses to take on other responsibilities, and makes good on them. His blood kin are not somehow more deserving of his aid than anyone else in the galaxy. His home country and planet are not somehow more deserving than any other worlds. What does it matter which people in need he helps, so long as he's helping people?




Deserving of aid is one thing, but not even trying to help his own is quite another. At some point over a 20 year period he couldnt have done a scan to see if there was any life in Wakanda? To check if any of his relatives or friends might have survived?

Also if we accept that his indoctrination in “Wakanda first” stopped when he was a boy then so did his learning about responsibility and justice. The ravagers were pirates and mercenaries so it certainly wasnt them who taught TChalla those things. It now becomes a debate about nature and nurture, as it seems that even being raised among thieves, we must accept that TChalla’s inherent nobility will remain and transform everyone around him.



Paul Farquhar said:


> I think it works both ways. One T'Challa is too focused on Wakanda, the other not enough. Either way the character is a paragon who does a lot of good, but remains human by being not quite perfect.



Yes thats probably a good way to view things, I can accept that …


----------



## Rune

Tonguez said:


> It now becomes a debate about nature and nurture



The Watcher asks us that very question right at the beginning of the episode.


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> The major difference being... this is not the Lovecraft Universe.  It is the Marvel Universe.  It is _not_ a universe of cosmic horror.  It lacks the basic precept that humans are inconsequential.  Quite the opposite, in fact, the Marvel Universe is one of humanism, elevating the potential and agency of the characters, rather than starting from a position that their actions mean nothing.
> 
> So... it was a giant tentacle monster.  Dangerous.  Maybe a threat to the world.  But not a thing that drives true heroes mad.



along that line of thought is a meme I saw a few weeks back pointing out the misunderstanding of Lovecraftian Madness.

It is not because you saw something too ugly, big. or spherical geometry.

It is for a moment, you are the ant who get picked up, examined by humans, and for a short time, you see your world is far more than the blade of grass and picnics, and you understand science and love and saturday morning cartoons.  Then, you get put back on your blade of grass and your limited perspective. And you want more than anything to return, to know again, and no one around you will ever understand, so you will do ANYTHING to get back to that.

Dr. Strange experienced this, and he said, "Teach me."

Carter saw some giant tentacles.

There's a difference.


----------



## Janx

Rune said:


> The Watcher asks us that very question right at the beginning of the episode.



Freakonomics says its Nature.


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> Deserving of aid is one thing, but not even trying to help his own is quite another.




Responsibility does not come from accident of birth.  Blood kin do not own each other.  



Tonguez said:


> As some point over 20 years he couldnt have done a scan to see if there was any life in Wakanda? To check if any of his relatives or friends might have survived?




Well, the original Peter Quill doesn't come back to Earth for the same period of time, despite having living family.  The galaxy is a big place.  For them to get to Earth is not just going to the corner store, I guess.

Plus, if Wakanda was destroyed, as he was told by the person he trusted most in the Universe at that point and who he doesn't have reason to doubt, even if there were survivors, they probably had to relocate, so now he's looking for them among the billions of the world.



Tonguez said:


> Also if we accept that his indoctrination in “Wakanda first” stopped when he was a boy then so did his learning about responsibility and justice.




He can't realistically keep his attachment to his family and Wakanda at that point.  He can still keep his attachment to responsibility, because that can be practiced anywhere, with anyone.  Plus, as you point out, maybe he's just that kind of guy.


----------



## Maxperson

Tonguez said:


> Deserving of aid is one thing, but not even trying to help his own is quite another. At some point over a 20 year period he couldnt have done a scan to see if there was any life in Wakanda? To check if any of his relatives or friends might have survived?



Yondu said that Wakanda had been destroyed.  A world power that destroyed Wakanda wouldn't just leave it there unattended. It would move into the area and begin mining the vibranium.  If there were any survivors, they would have scattered into the rest of the world. T'Challa would have figured that out.


----------



## Maxperson

Rune said:


> The Watcher asks us that very question right at the beginning of the episode.



Am I the only one who due to the Watcher's deep voice half expects him to announce that he's Batman at the end of the intro?


----------



## Ryujin

Maxperson said:


> Am I the only one who due to the Watcher's deep voice half expects him to announce that he's Batman at the end of the intro?



I keep thinking that his voice isn't deep enough for a guy with a head that's 20 feet across. They needed Clancy Brown. Needs to be a Lou Rawls level voice.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Janx said:


> you are the ant who get picked up



You know what the ant does if it survives the experience? It caries on with it's life exactly as it did before. It doesn't care what happened, it barely even noticed.


----------



## Janx

Maxperson said:


> Am I the only one who due to the Watcher's deep voice half expects him to announce that he's Batman at the end of the intro?



I have a side-hypothesis that The Watcher could be a Variant of Kang.  That's not Marvel canon, of course, but it COULD be MCU. It's another vague name like He Who Remains. The role is related to what HWR was doing. 

Or not.  But there's a lot of Kang out there, all different. When the multi-verse was unleased, suddenly there's this guy who does nothing but watch them in an odd fascination and awareness of these variations.


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> Wow.  Super judgey.
> 
> And, maybe rather missing the point of the Black Panther film, in which T'Challa learns that being too focused only on Wakanda is, in fact, _a flaw_.
> 
> This T'Challa's indoctrination in "Wakanda Before All Else" _stopped_ when he was a boy. He then chooses to take on other responsibilities, and makes good on them. His blood kin are not somehow more deserving of his aid than anyone else in the galaxy. His home country and planet are not somehow more deserving than any other worlds. What does it matter which people in need he helps, so long as he's helping people?



in fact, his blood kin are doing just fine as we see when T'Challa returns to earth.

The galaxy is doing better, because they picked up the wrong kid.


----------



## Maxperson

Janx said:


> I have a side-hypothesis that The Watcher could be a Variant of Kang.  That's not Marvel canon, of course, but it COULD be MCU. It's another vague name like He Who Remains. The role is related to what HWR was doing.
> 
> Or not.  But there's a lot of Kang out there, all different. When the multi-verse was unleased, suddenly there's this guy who does nothing but watch them in an odd fascination and awareness of these variations.



In the comics there are a race of those beings assigned to watch the various planets and such.  Uatu is the Watcher of Earth, which is why he's watching events that deal with people from Earth.  I doubt they'd turn him into a Kang variant.


----------



## Rune

Janx said:


> in fact, his blood kin are doing just fine as we see when T'Challa returns to earth.
> 
> The galaxy is doing better, because they picked up the wrong kid.



At least until Ego shows up.


----------



## Janx

Maxperson said:


> In the comics there are a race of those beings assigned to watch the various planets and such.  Uatu is the Watcher of Earth, which is why he's watching events that deal with people from Earth.  I doubt they'd turn him into a Kang variant.



I know that.  But it doesn't have to be that way in the MCU.


----------



## Rune

Janx said:


> I know that.  But it doesn't have to be that way in the MCU.



I was actually kinda hoping (before his reveal happened) that Kang would turn out to be a Loki variant.


----------



## Ryujin

Paul Farquhar said:


> You know what the ant does if it survives the experience? It caries on with it's life exactly as it did before. It doesn't care what happened, it barely even noticed.



I can't say for sure, but I don't think that ants suffer from Existential Dread.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> I can't say for sure, but I don't think that ants suffer from Existential Dread.



Neither do many humans.


----------



## Janx

Rune said:


> I was actually kinda hoping (before his reveal happened) that Kang would turn out to be a Loki variant.



That could be fun.  What if He Who Remains was the first Loki to get to the end, and he rigged the game to stop any others from taking him out.


----------



## Ryujin

Paul Farquhar said:


> Neither do many humans.



Perhaps only because they haven't been exposed to something that would trigger it, like being forced to witness god-like beings sprawling 8 dimensions might.


----------



## Rune

Janx said:


> That could be fun.  What if He Who Remains was the first Loki to get to the end, and he rigged the game to stop any others from taking him out.



It _could_ still be the case, but He Who Remains would have to have lied about his origins.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> Perhaps only because they haven't been exposed to something that would trigger it, like being forced to witness god-like beings sprawling 8 dimensions might.



Why would it? Consider the ant analogy - no one would be able to make sense of what you just described, any more than it would to an ant. It would be like watching an art house movie "oh, that what was confusing, let's go home".

In order to be disturbed by the eldritch, you need at least on of two core beliefs:

1) I am significant;

2) I understand how the universe works.

Lovecraft clearly had those beliefs, and he passed them onto his protagonists, who where then understandably disturbed when those beliefs where shattered. But most people are wise enough to know that they are _not_ significant, and they _don't_ understand the universe.


----------



## Janx

Paul Farquhar said:


> Why would it? Consider the ant analogy - no one would be able to make sense of what you just described. It would be like watching an art house movie "oh, that what was confusing, let's go home".
> 
> In order to be disturbed by the eldritch, you need at least on of two core beliefs:
> 
> 1) I am significant;
> 
> 2) I understand how the universe works.
> 
> Lovecraft clearly had those beliefs, and he passed them onto his protagonists, who where then understandably disturbed when those beliefs where shattered. But most people are wise enough to know that they are _not_ significant, and they _don't_ understand the universe.



have you not been outside? Noticed people ranting about masks? they are the ants who have yet to be plucked from their self-centered existence and seen the truth.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Janx said:


> have you not been outside? Noticed people ranting about masks? they are the ants who have yet to be plucked from their self-centered existence and seen the truth.



I don't think they _technically_ qualify as insane.


----------



## Rune

Paul Farquhar said:


> Why would it? Consider the ant analogy - no one would be able to make sense of what you just described, any more than it would to an ant. It would be like watching an art house movie "oh, that what was confusing, let's go home".
> 
> In order to be disturbed by the eldritch, you need at least on of two core beliefs:
> 
> 1) I am significant;
> 
> 2) I understand how the universe works.
> 
> Lovecraft clearly had those beliefs, and he passed them onto his protagonists, who where then understandably disturbed when those beliefs where shattered. But most people are wise enough to know that they are _not_ significant, and they _don't_ understand the universe.



I don’t know about _most_. There are certainly _some_.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Rune said:


> I don’t know about _most_. There are certainly _some_.



Maybe you are right, and my opinion is coloured by experience hanging out with other theoretical physicists.


----------



## Rune

Paul Farquhar said:


> Maybe you are right, and my opinion is coloured by experience hanging out with other theoretical physicists.



Maybe my experience is colored by hanging out in Wal-Marts.


----------



## Ryujin

Paul Farquhar said:


> Maybe you are right, and my opinion is coloured by experience hanging out with other theoretical physicists.



I would say that it's like projecting how people will react in a crisis situation: You can make all of the claims that you want but until you're actually in one, it's all just theory. Hang on. I'll go scare up an Eldritch Horror to expose you to


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> I would say that it's like projecting how people will react in a crisis situation:



I think that's exactly what Lovecraft did - projected how _he _would react onto his characters.


Ryujin said:


> I'll go scare up an Eldritch Horror to expose you to



I've studied cosmology, Eldritch horrors hold no fear for me (aside from the purely physical threat).


----------



## Crimson Longinus

Well that was a fun space heist and I really enjoyed the alternative versions of the characters.

I was also pleased to see that in this timeline the whole Thanos situation was resolved more realistically, i.e. someone telling him how stupid his plan was.


----------



## Rune

Crimson Longinus said:


> Well that was a fun space heist and I really enjoyed the alternative versions of the characters.
> 
> I was also pleased to see that in this timeline the whole Thanos situation was resolved more realistically, i.e. someone telling him how stupid his plan was.



As I recall, a _lot_ of people told him how stupid it was, back on Titan.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> Maybe you are right, and my opinion is coloured by experience hanging out with other theoretical physicists.




I know several theoretical physicists who think they are _quite important_.


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> I don't think they _technically_ qualify as insane.



Perhaps you haven't seen the same town hall and city meetings that I've seen.


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> I've studied cosmology, Eldritch horrors hold no fear for me (aside from the purely physical threat).



The Great Wheel doesn't count.


----------



## Maxperson

Crimson Longinus said:


> I was also pleased to see that in this timeline the whole Thanos situation was resolved more realistically, i.e. someone telling him how stupid his plan was.



And yet he kept arguing and trying to sell it to people throughout the episode. I sensed within him the ability to backslide.


----------



## Janx

Some more thoughts from when I talked to a friend.

I had noticed how T'Challa was like the perfect Starlord, maybe a little too perfect. And of course Peter ends up being a janitor.

There's another angle to that, within what they showed us.  T'Challa came from privilege. Rich kid, good education, great parental role models, and an instilled sense of duty.

Peter did not. He was literally an at-risk kid, picked up by criminals.

--
After seeing the Eternals trailer, there's another twist.  That movie won't happen in T'Challa Starlord's reality. I think that episode canceled more movies than Captain Carter.


----------



## Ryujin

Janx said:


> Some more thoughts from when I talked to a friend.
> 
> I had noticed how T'Challa was like the perfect Starlord, maybe a little too perfect. And of course Peter ends up being a janitor.
> 
> There's another angle to that, within what they showed us.  T'Challa came from privilege. Rich kid, good education, great parental role models, and an instilled sense of duty.
> 
> Peter did not. He was literally an at-risk kid, picked up by criminals.
> 
> --
> After seeing the Eternals trailer, there's another twist.  That movie won't happen in T'Challa Starlord's reality. I think that episode canceled more movies than Captain Carter.



I'm not sure that I liked the message in that; rich good, poor bad.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> After seeing the Eternals trailer, there's another twist.  That movie won't happen in T'Challa Starlord's reality.




I don't see anything in the What If...? Episode that _completely invalidates_ the Eternals movie.  Instead of asking why the Eternals didn't help out with Thanos, he'll ask why the Eternals didn't help with the Son of Ego, and so forth.


----------



## Rune

Janx said:


> I had noticed how T'Challa was like the perfect Starlord, maybe a little too perfect. And of course Peter ends up being a janitor.



Fast food restaurants don’t have janitors. The same people who operate the registers, cook your food, and serve it to you also do all of the cleaning. Much of it after the store is closed. 

Peter is certainly just crew.


----------



## Umbran

Ryujin said:


> I'm not sure that I liked the message in that; rich good, poor bad.




I don't think that's the intended message.  I think the message here is that developing your potential is significantly dependent on your background.  Thus, we should work to improve the background.


----------



## Janx

Ryujin said:


> I'm not sure that I liked the message in that; rich good, poor bad.



kinda why I've been itching at that aspect of how awesome T'Challa was made out to be. It seemed off.


----------



## Ryujin

Janx said:


> kinda why I've been itching at that aspect of how awesome T'Challa was made out to be. It seemed off.



Maybe I'm just sensitive to it, having grown up as that poor kid?


----------



## Rabulias

Umbran said:


> I don't see anything in the What If...? Episode that _completely invalidates_ the Eternals movie.  Instead of asking why the Eternals didn't help out with Thanos, he'll ask why the Eternals didn't help with the Son of Ego, and so forth.



The Eternals trailer indicates that the return of half the universe provides the energy for something.


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> I don't see anything in the What If...? Episode that _completely invalidates_ the Eternals movie.  Instead of asking why the Eternals didn't help out with Thanos, he'll ask why the Eternals didn't help with the Son of Ego, and so forth.



actually, per the trailer, the instigating factor for the Eternals to do something now (and have the movie) was the 2nd Snap that brought folks back which in turn agitated the Deviants they were there for. No snapping, no trigger.

So yes, they could weasel that Ego did something instead.  But I find it more interesting to find the movies these What Ifs directly negate without some kind of "then they'll make up something else instead so it happens anyway"


----------



## Janx

Ryujin said:


> Maybe I'm just sensitive to it, having grown up as that poor kid?



Been there myself.

I'm sure the writers didn't intend that.  But it is a side effect of the choices they made that mean something to somebody.


----------



## billd91

Ryujin said:


> I'm not sure that I liked the message in that; rich good, poor bad.



I think it's less a question of good/bad as much as a question of which one has the power to make his surroundings adapt to him vs having to adapt to his surroundings. The privileges T'Challa has as a boy in Wakanda (compared to Peter's childhood and ongoing grief) breeds optimism and empowerment relative to Peter's experiences.


----------



## Umbran

Rabulias said:


> The Eternals trailer indicates that the return of half the universe provides the energy for something.




"The remnant's of Ego's vast energies..."  There's always a way.


----------



## Rabulias

Umbran said:


> "The remnant's of Ego's vast energies..."  There's always a way.



Agreed, writers can always come up with something, but I doubt even _all _of Ego's energies compares to the power of deleting or returning half of all living things in the universe. Peter Quill, with a heritage of Ego's energy (probably much less than half, admittedly) could barely hold onto the Power Stone. Ego, powerful as he was, was finite; the Infinity Stones are (like it says on the tin) infinite.


----------



## Umbran

Rabulias said:


> Agreed, writers can always come up with something, but I doubt even _all _of Ego's energies compares to the power of deleting or returning half of all living things in the universe.




You say that as if "all of Ego's energies" is anything other than a narrative tool.  Comics continuity is not a simulation such that we can say with authority, "Well, the writers couldn't do that because..."



Rabulias said:


> Peter Quill, with a heritage of Ego's energy (probably much less than half, admittedly) could barely hold onto the Power Stone. Ego, powerful as he was, was finite; the Infinity Stones are (like it says on the tin) infinite.




No Prize - sure, the energy of the Snap is bigger, but it is spread over the whole universe.  Ego's energy is lesser, but only spread across one galaxy.  They could have similar _energy densities_, such that whatever Earth-local thing is happening could be started by either.

See how easy that was?  It just doesn't pay to make logical arguments against narrative props.  Such narration should be vetted by thematic appropriateness, not our presumptions of measurements of fictional energies.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Ryujin said:


> I'm not sure that I liked the message in that; rich good, poor bad.




The Watcher specifically calls out the Nature vs Nurture thing during the episode. There are plenty of good people who grew up poor and in bad neighborhoods, but had good parents and a nurturing home. And there are plenty of bad people who grew up rich, but had poor parenting and empty homes or cold childhoods. T'Challa had such a good home and parents, that even losing all that at a young age did not change who he was. Also remember that we are seeing 20+ years of his influence on the Reavers versus 20+ years of the Reavers influence on Peter.


----------



## trappedslider

Well, that was an interesting who dun it.


----------



## Davies

trappedslider said:


> Well, that was an interesting who dun it.



I imagine that the writers must have really wrestled with the temptation to have the villain say 



Spoiler



"I'm the bad guy? How'd that happen?"


----------



## MarkB

Yeah, I liked that one a lot.


Spoiler



Great re-imagining of a lot of classic scenes, and it felt like everything fell out naturally from the changed events, a lot more so than last episode.

Also, have I just missed those shots of the Watcher's silhouette looming over the scene in previous episodes, or were they new to this one? They were very atmospheric.


----------



## Tonguez

Episode 3 was middling, the Villain was unexpected though



Rune said:


> Fast food restaurants don’t have janitors. The same people who operate the registers, cook your food, and serve it to you also do all of the cleaning. Much of it after the store is closed.
> 
> Peter is certainly just crew.



I had an uncle who was Maintenance/Janitor at a Fast Food restaurant, in charge of keeping equipment working and restocked. He didnt work the register or served food. He did use to bring home bags of unused buns :


MarkB said:


> Yeah, I liked that one a lot.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Great re-imagining of a lot of classic scenes, and it felt like everything fell out naturally from the changed events, a lot more so than last episode.
> 
> Also, have I just missed those shots of the Watcher's silhouette looming over the scene in previous episodes, or were they new to this one? They were very atmospheric.




The Watcher Silhouette also appeared in the sky in Episode 2, I didnt notice him in Episode 1 Pilot though


----------



## Rune

Tonguez said:


> Episode 3 was middling, the Villain was unexpected though
> 
> 
> I had an uncle who was Maintenance/Janitor at a Fast Food restaurant, in charge of keeping equipment working and restocked. He didnt work the register or served food. He did use to bring home bags of unused buns :
> 
> 
> The Watcher Silhouette also appeared in the sky in Episode 2, I didnt notice him in Episode 1 Pilot though



Well, yeah, their usually will be a maintenance employee (although not on all shifts). And if the store runs lean on staff, that maintenance  employee may pull other duties as needed (even cooking or register, if they’ve got the training from holding other positions prior).

Of course, these stores are franchised, so what is generally true may not be true for any specific store. I only brought it up because I think most people who don’t have experience in the industry probably don’t realize that the people who feed them are also the people who clean up before, during, and after (and not just in fast food).


----------



## Gammadoodler

This one definitely reminded me how much I like Coulson interacting with the main cast.


----------



## Maxperson

I liked the episode, but it was my least favorite of the three.  So far my order is 2-1-3.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I never did run across that title/plot spoiler list again for season one, but one thing I do remember is no mutant-themed episode. That makes me wonder if one of the 9 episodes for season 2 next year will be used to introduce the idea of mutants to the MCU. Too bad Agents of SHIELD is not canon or they could do an episode where the Terrigen mist actually created mutants, instead of just activating the Inhuman genes in people. Or maybe make the Celestials responsible for creating mutants, along with creating humans, Eternals, and Deviants.

Edit: and of course, right after I post this, I find a basic list. IMDB has info on some future episodes and another site had the titles:



Spoiler



Including already aired episodes:

1: Captain Carter
2: T'Challa Starlord
3: The world lost its mightiest heroes/Loki on Earth
4: Dark Doctor Strange
5: Party Thor - Thor still banished but also still worthy
6: Tony Stark and Killmonger - Wakanda involved.
7: Marvel Zombies
8: Tony Stark on Sakaar
9: Infinite Ultron - Vision and Ultron get merged together

Iron Man is cool, but I think that was too much Tony Stark for 9 episodes.


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I never did run across that title/plot spoiler list again for season one, but one thing I do remember is no mutant-themed episode. That makes me wonder if one of the 9 episodes for season 2 next year will be used to introduce the idea of mutants to the MCU. Too bad Agents of SHIELD is not canon or they could do an episode where the Terrigen mist actually created mutants, instead of just activating the Inhuman genes in people. Or maybe make the Celestials responsible for creating mutants, along with creating humans, Eternals, and Deviants.
> [/spoiler]



theres a whole lot of online speculation that the "emergence" mentioned in the Eternals trailer not only sees the awakening of Tiamut but also the rise of the X-Gene -which indeed has been attributed to experiments by the Celestials. Entirely speculation at this point of course


----------



## Stalker0

This was a fun "Who Dun It" episode, and it really showed off the power of



Spoiler



Ant-Man, as an infiltrator you just can't match him, and though he has been more of a joke character in the MCU this shows we can really do when the gloves come off.

So the fact that he could make tech that kills the hulk is insanely awesome, and technically could be something that comes into play in our main universe should they wish to use it.


----------



## MarkB

Stalker0 said:


> This was a fun "Who Dun It" episode, and it really showed off the power of
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Ant-Man, as an infiltrator you just can't match him, and though he has been more of a joke character in the MCU this shows we can really do when the gloves come off.
> 
> So the fact that he could make tech that kills the hulk is insanely awesome, and technically could be something that comes into play in our main universe should they wish to use it.



It wasn't even new tech - just one of the 'grenades' introduced in the first movie, delivered to the right place.


----------



## Janx

Rune said:


> Well, yeah, their usually will be a maintenance employee (although not on all shifts). And if the store runs lean on staff, that maintenance  employee may pull other duties as needed (even cooking or register, if they’ve got the training from holding other positions prior).
> 
> Of course, these stores are franchised, so what is generally true may not be true for any specific store. I only brought it up because I think most people who don’t have experience in the industry probably don’t realize that the people who feed them are also the people who clean up before, during, and after (and not just in fast food).



Ya know I was just summarizing the snippet we saw of Peter with a mop, right?  Because symbolically, having that job is considered bottom of the rung.  Shorthand.


----------



## Janx

I think the 3rd episode was my favorite thus far.

I liked how they went back to the 1st MCU hulk movie.  That's a movie it seems Marvel hoped folks would forget.

Loki appears to have hit a home run finally. Though I don't understand his fascination with subjugating humans or why he'd think they're suited to it.  There's a whole lot of folks for whom the words, "Never again" hold special meaning.  They're gonna school that boy.

And for the list of directly negated movies: Avengers 1 & 2.  Cap 1 & 2.  Iron Man 3, Black Widow, probably Wandavision and Loki.

It is probable that on Saturday, Captain Marvel takes Loki to browntown and the world gets back to some normal.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> Though I don't understand his fascination with subjugating humans or why he'd think they're suited to it.




You don't?  Consider, at that point in time, Loki's fundamental drives.  Consider that even Asgardians will fool themselves if it fits their preferred narrative.  And consider the purpose of comic book stories.

He is fascinated with subjugating humans because Thor loves humans, and he really wants to screw his brother over.  He _wants_ humans to be made for subjugation, because that fits his preferred narrative that they love Thor because they are dim witted, stupid followers, not because Thor is, really, pretty darned awesome.  He wants all this because, all his life, he's had a feeling of inadequacy, and he wants to rule things and show people up to make that feeling _go away.
_
And, in a meta-sense, it is a setup for that old man to say, "Never again" and have Captain America show up to start kicking butt.  Because in comic book stories, symbolism matters a lot.


----------



## Maxperson

Janx said:


> I think the 3rd episode was my favorite thus far.
> 
> I liked how they went back to the 1st MCU hulk movie.  That's a movie it seems Marvel hoped folks would forget.
> 
> Loki appears to have hit a home run finally. Though I don't understand his fascination with subjugating humans or why he'd think they're suited to it.  There's a whole lot of folks for whom the words, "Never again" hold special meaning.  They're gonna school that boy.
> 
> And for the list of directly negated movies: Avengers 1 & 2.  Cap 1 & 2.  Iron Man 3, Black Widow, probably Wandavision and Loki.
> 
> It is probable that on Saturday, Captain Marvel takes Loki to browntown and the world gets back to some normal.



Why are cap 1 and 2 negated?


----------



## Janx

Maxperson said:


> Why are cap 1 and 2 negated?



because I'm bad at numbers.  I meant 2 & 3.  Obviously #1 happened.

Though in hindsight, #2 might could happen, just without Natasha.

#3 has no Tony to argue with, and no Avengers 2 to cause argument with Tony.


----------



## Maxperson

Janx said:


> because I'm bad at numbers.  I meant 2 & 3.  Obviously #1 happened.
> 
> Though in hindsight, #2 might could happen, just without Natasha.
> 
> #3 has no Tony to argue with, and no Avengers 2 to cause argument with Tony.



Yeah.  I had the same thought about 1 and 2, which is why I questioned it.


----------



## Janx

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  I had the same thought about 1 and 2, which is why I questioned it.



I think what also messed up my thinking was how long deLoking the planet would take.  Hydra might find itself very irrelevant when its members see how crappy it is to be human under Loki's rule.


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> It wasn't even new tech - just one of the 'grenades' introduced in the first movie, delivered to the right place.



For my personal head canon I’ll assume it is, else hulk truly ks much weaker than in the comics.

considering his regenerative powers, an internal explosion should be no more threat to hulk than a bullet in the heart. So my assumption is the tech “disconnects” his heart from his gamma powers that allows the damage to stick.


----------



## MarkB

Stalker0 said:


> For my personal head canon I’ll assume it is, else hulk truly ks much weaker than in the comics.
> 
> considering his regenerative powers, an internal explosion should be no more threat to hulk than a bullet in the heart. So my assumption is the tech “disconnects” his heart from his gamma powers that allows the damage to stick.



I'm pretty sure having you heart expand to a few dozen times its normal size could be deadly even to the Hulk, especially if all the blood flowing through it was also expanding. When the cells that are regenerating are themselves giant-sized, regeneration becomes part of the problem rather than the solution.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Stalker0 said:


> This was a fun "Who Dun It" episode, and it really showed off the power of
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Ant-Man, as an infiltrator you just can't match him, and though he has been more of a joke character in the MCU this shows we can really do when the gloves come off.
> 
> So the fact that he could make tech that kills the hulk is insanely awesome, and technically could be something that comes into play in our main universe should they wish to use it.






Spoiler



The evil version of Hank Pym in his Yellowjacket suit, according to the credits, not Ant-Man.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> considering his regenerative powers, an internal explosion should be no more threat to hulk than a bullet in the heart.




I don't think it is an internal explosion.  It is making his heart bigger than the entire rest of his body.


----------



## Rune

Umbran said:


> I don't think it is an internal explosion.  It is making his heart bigger than the entire rest of his body.



As well as, importantly, all of the blood inside of it at the time.


----------



## Rune

The hulk burst really reminds me of the kinds of hypothetical scenarios I’d discuss with my geek-friends back in the day. Usually starting with, “ Who would win…”


----------



## Umbran

Rune said:


> As well as, importantly, all of the blood inside of it at the time.




I don't know if that's actually an important bit, just a gross and messy bit.


----------



## Rune

Umbran said:


> I don't know if that's actually an important bit, just a messy bit.



If it was just the heart growing, I don’t think he would have essentially disintegrated. He might still have burst, depending on the size of the heart, but there should have been pieces left. Including the heart.


----------



## Umbran

Rune said:


> If it was just the heart growing, I don’t think he would have essentially disintegrated.




I think you have rather more expectation of highly detailed consideration for the mechanics of gory, messy death than I do.


----------



## Rune

Umbran said:


> I think you have rather more expectation of highly detailed consideration for the mechanics of gory, messy death than I do.



Isn’t deep analysis a hallmark of comic-book culture, though? And all geek-culture, really?


----------



## Rabulias

And way back in the comics General Ross's task force for taking down the Hulk was called the "Hulkbusters," and the operation ran out of Hulkbuster Base. Now I just keep thinking they should have named it Hulkbursters...


----------



## embee

Janx said:


> Though I don't understand his fascination with subjugating humans or why he'd think they're suited to it.



He's the heir to the throne of Jotunheim. Thor is dead, meaning he is ostensibly the heir to the throne of Asgard, so with Earth, he'll rule Midgard too. 

That's three out of the Nine Realms.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> I think you have rather more expectation of highly detailed consideration for the mechanics of gory, messy death than I do.




Plus this was made for family-friendly Disney+, not HBO Max. Some stuff was already told no because it pushed the limits of PG-13 too much, such as the rejected script where Parker transforms on-screen into a real spider:









						'What If...?' Writer Reveals the Storyline That Was Too Dark for Marvel
					

It seems like body horror is where the MCU set its limits.




					collider.com
				




I am surprised they even show the direct shot of the arrow killing Thor.


----------



## Tonguez

Rune said:


> If it was just the heart growing, I don’t think he would have essentially disintegrated. He might still have burst, depending on the size of the heart, but there should have been pieces left. Including the heart.



Yeah I think that was disney code for blood splatter, of course the whole Hulk blowing up like a balloon thing was the stupidest part of the episode, but I’ll accept that in that particular branch of the Multiverse their version of the Hulk is rather weak and didnt have the regenerative powers that other versions do…


----------



## Rune

Tonguez said:


> Yeah I think that was disney code for blood splatter, of course the whole Hulk blowing up like a balloon thing was the stupidest part of the episode, but I’ll accept that in that particular branch of the Multiverse their version of the Hulk is rather weak and didnt have the regenerative powers that other versions do…



What’s regeneration going to do when every single capillary gets pumped full of blood cells that are orders of magnitude too large? In a heartbeat.


----------



## Tonguez

Rune said:


> What’s regeneration going to do when every single capillary gets pumped full of blood cells that are orders of magnitude too large? In a heartbeat.




The Hulk in comics has perhaps the best regeneration ability, he’s managed to regenerate from having himself incinerated (he did that in less than 20 minutes), he’s regenerated his entire heart after it was ripped out and he has been shown regrowing a body from bits of his corpse. One fringe theory is that the Hulk is in fact a gamma irradiated colony of cancel cells that constantly replicate once he gets angry and have no known limit.


----------



## Rune

Tonguez said:


> The Hulk in comics has perhaps the best regeneration ability, he’s managed to regenerate from having himself incinerated (he did that in less than 20 minutes), he’s regenerated his entire heart after it was ripped out and he has been shown regrowing a body from bits of his corpse. One fringe theory is that the Hulk is in fact a gamma irradiated colony of cancel cells that constantly replicate once he gets angry and have no known limit.
> 
> View attachment 142821



Which may be true with MCU Hulk anyway. None of that would prevent what we saw happen to him in the episode and, if he could fully regenerate from a single cell or collection thereof (his enlarged blood and heart cells should still be around, after all), surely that would “take a while to recover.”


----------



## Stalker0

Rune said:


> Which may be true with MCU Hulk anyway. None of that would prevent what we saw happen to him in the episode and, if he could fully regenerate from a single cell or collection thereof (his enlarged blood and heart cells should still be around, after all), surely that would “take a while to recover.”



Its pretty much implied in the show that he's dead.

Again, its my personal head cannon, it helps me reconcile the super regeneration from the comics with the attack in the cartoon.


----------



## Gammadoodler

Yeah, it's a bit strange that he could survive wielding the infinity gauntlet to bring back half the life in the universe, but a fancy grenade does the trick. 

Seems like the kind of thing someone who's spent their career and millions/billions of US tax dollars on bringing down a monster would have thought of already. 

The others all more or less made sense. That one I just had to go "sure..why not.."


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> The Hulk in comics has perhaps the best regeneration ability...




So, when we talk about comics characters, we have to remember that they have existed a long time - Hulk has been around since 1962.  Powers tend to change and inflate over time, as authors find new ways to one-up themselves and each other.  But any take on the character from those past 60 years is valid.  And he hasn't always been that great at regeneration.  He's had the crap beaten out of him before, and taken a long time to heal up, and there have been times when simple human disease would have killed him if not for outside intervention.  

So, maybe the MCU version (or the What If...? version) isn't infinitely regenerating cancer-Hulk.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

You all are just lucky it is not inch-worm Hulk, where you cut him in two and two Hulks regrow. A smart, evil Hulk would then be the true HYDRA. Intentionally chop of his hands and feel over and over and you have a Hulk army.  lol

Also, is his brain is destroyed and it regenerates, that is just the tissue regrowing. Shouldn't all his knowledge and memories be gone, because you can't just regrow those with the new brain, and Hulk would just be in a vegitative state? Or would it be like a case of total amnesia that cannot be cured?


----------



## darjr

I thought all these were connected somehow. I think I like it better that they are not.


----------



## trappedslider

Tonguez said:


> The Hulk in comics has perhaps the best regeneration ability,



Does he? How Does The Hulk Die In Marvel Comics?









						15 Times The Hulk Was MURDERED
					

Incredible? Certainly. Unkillable? Hardly. Here are 15 times someone killed The Incredible Hulk.




					www.cbr.com


----------



## embee

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> You all are just lucky it is not inch-worm Hulk, where you cut him in two and two Hulks regrow. A smart, evil Hulk would then be the true HYDRA. Intentionally chop of his hands and feel over and over and you have a Hulk army.  lol
> 
> Also, is his brain is destroyed and it regenerates, that is just the tissue regrowing. Shouldn't all his knowledge and memories be gone, because you can't just regrow those with the new brain, and Hulk would just be in a vegitative state? Or would it be like a case of total amnesia that cannot be cured?





Rune said:


> if he could fully regenerate from a single cell or collection thereof (his enlarged blood and heart cells should still be around, after all)



Taken to the natural conclusion, any Hulk would lead to infinite Hulks. If one cell could regenerate an entire Hulk, then just being alive would lead to more Hulks. 

Your body sloughs off cells on a daily basis. Blowing his nose would create Hulks. Spitting would create Hulks. A blood sample would create Hulks. Even pooping would create Hulks. 

The "he can regenerate from just one cell" trope is one of the least thought-out tropes in comics.


----------



## Maxperson

trappedslider said:


> Does he? How Does The Hulk Die In Marvel Comics?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 15 Times The Hulk Was MURDERED
> 
> 
> Incredible? Certainly. Unkillable? Hardly. Here are 15 times someone killed The Incredible Hulk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbr.com



I'm not sure a link to *15* times that the Hulk has died is good evidence of him not being hard to kill.  his track record of not staying dead is pretty good.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

darjr said:


> I thought all these were connected somehow. I think I like it better that they are not.




No, nothing in the history of What If? has had a connected story that I know of. Maybe an idea gets revisited in the comic book version. I think the connected theory comes from the 9th episode where 



Spoiler



Vision and Ultron are supposed to merge together and a multidimensional team of heroes is assembled to stop him. I think that is where some of the new characters return for a second episode.


----------



## darjr

Eventually don’t all favored super heroes get regeneration or resurrection of some sort?


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> I'm not sure a link to *15* times that the Hulk has died is good evidence of him not being hard to kill.  his track record of not staying dead is pretty good.




Several of them are alternate universes.  And in others, Hulk doesn't come back for any reasons of his own doing


----------



## Janx

darjr said:


> I thought all these were connected somehow. I think I like it better that they are not.



The only time they interconnect is when Uatu brings them together for a Hyundai commercial to fight zombies.


----------



## Older Beholder

Well, that got dark.


----------



## MarkB

Dark and depressing, and done better elsewhere.


----------



## Rabulias

I half-expected Captain Carter to show up when Dark Strange summoned the tentacled thing, fulfilling the preview image shared by @RangerWickett earlier in this thread (What If...?). Looking at that image again it does look like Dark Strange and his different cloak.

Hmm... and this is the second time our tentacled friend has shown up. Maybe it's a binding element for this series? Perhaps it is also able to perceive the multiverse (being exposed to them by the Red Skull and Dark Strange)? Will it show up again as a threat to all realities?   Or is that image just a deleted scene?


----------



## Older Beholder

This was my favourite episode so far in terms of the art and visuals.
I'm keen to watch it again, my first viewing was less What if...? and more What tf...?


----------



## billd91

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Well, that got dark.



Lots of What If stories in the comics got dark.


----------



## Older Beholder

billd91 said:


> Lots of What If stories in the comics got dark.




I imagine the zombie episode isn't going to be too cheery either


----------



## Tonguez

eating an angry garden gnome was wholly inappropriate!

and what if this doctor has no way home?


----------



## Janx

As noted, a dark episode

What caught my ear was Strange's talk with The Watcher.

the way he talked about time, and how you can't change time, etc runs counter to what the TVA had been doing for a very long time.


----------



## Ryujin

Janx said:


> As noted, a dark episode
> 
> What caught my ear was Strange's talk with The Watcher.
> 
> the way he talked about time, and how you can't change time, etc runs counter to what the TVA had been doing for a very long time.



Well this time issue is a bit different. the TVA were pruning alternate timelines, creating just the one. The Watcher was talking about once an alternate timeline has been set and The Ancient was talking about key events, that can't be changed. In this case that key event is what created the alternate.


----------



## Rune

Ryujin said:


> Well this time issue is a bit different. the TVA were pruning alternate timelines, creating just the one. The Watcher was talking about once an alternate timeline has been set and The Ancient was talking about key events, that can't be changed. In this case that key event is what created the alternate.



The TVA doesn’t _create_ the (so-called) “sacred timeline.” They just don’t _prune_ it.



Spoiler: Spoiler for Season 1 of Loki



(Also, presumably the “sacred timeline” of the “new”  Kang-led TVA we get at the end of Season 1 is a different “sacred timeline.” One that would have produced that particular variant of Kang.)


----------



## trappedslider

Not to be picky, but I do believe that road should have had a no passing sign due to the curve ahead. Absolute point is also done in the remake of the Time Machine. Save the girl, no point in building the time machine.


----------



## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> Not to be picky, but I do believe that road should have had a no passing sign due to the curve ahead. Absolute point is also done in the remake of the Time Machine. Save the girl, no point in building the time machine.



I haven't seen that one, but Doctor Who did a lot to popularise the "fixed point in time" concept. I think the episode "Father's Day" is the best example of tackling exactly the themes present in this episode, and for me, it pulled it off with more emotional resonance than the What If episode.

The other example that comes to mind is the anime series Steins;Gate. That one goes into much more detail, especially regarding the extreme personal cost of trying to shift or undo that one precipitating event, and it does so while consistently delivering emotional gut-punches along the way.


----------



## Rune

My only problem with the episode is fundamental. I simply do not believe that the Dr. Strange who is still a surgeon would turn to mysticism for _any_ reason other than as a last resort to restore his self-identity as a god-like surgeon. Which this episode posits is never taken from him.

Of course, this episode _does_ posit that he is significantly different enough that he can apparently maintain a relationship, but he is not so different in personality that he isn’t about to receive an award for an incredible (miraculous?) procedure he successfully performed.

One thing is consistent about Dr. Strange. He is a man of faith, and that faith is in his own abilities. I don’t think the inciting incident of this episode calls them into question. But I’m willing to be convinced otherwise…


----------



## MarkB

Rune said:


> My only problem with the episode is fundamental. I simply do not believe that the Dr. Strange who is still a surgeon would turn to mysticism for _any_ reason other than as a last resort to restore his self-identity as a god-like surgeon. Which this episode posits is never taken from him.
> 
> Of course, this episode _does_ posit that he is significantly different enough that he can apparently maintain a relationship, but he is not so different in personality that he isn’t about to receive an award for an incredible (miraculous?) procedure he successfully performed.
> 
> One thing is consistent about Dr. Strange. He is a man of faith, and that faith is in his own abilities. I don’t think the inciting incident of this episode calls them into question. But I’m willing to be convinced otherwise…



Yeah, also the premise of the episode is that Christine's death is a fixed point because it's the only thing that would motivate him to become a sorcerer, and if he's not a sorcerer he can't save her, thus paradox - but we already know that there's another circumstance which would motivate him to become a sorcerer.


----------



## Rune

MarkB said:


> Yeah, also the premise of the episode is that Christine's death is a fixed point because it's the only thing that would motivate him to become a sorcerer, and if he's not a sorcerer he can't save her, thus paradox - but we already know that there's another circumstance which would motivate him to become a sorcerer.



I think it’s an Absolute Point (or whatever they called it), not because it’s the only thing that _could_ motivate Strange, but because it’s the thing that _did_ motivate _that variant_. That variant of Strange was trying to do something that resulted in paradox. 

Presumably, if anyone else had the ability and will to try it, they would have just created a new timeline branch.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Yeah, also the premise of the episode is that Christine's death is a fixed point because it's the only thing that would motivate him to become a sorcerer, and if he's not a sorcerer he can't save her, thus paradox - but we already know that there's another circumstance which would motivate him to become a sorcerer.




There is a basic rule of time travel - you cannot undo events that lead you to time travel.

And _within that timeline_, for this Strange, the Ancient One may be correct. Events in this were different - in the movie, he was alone in the car. Here, he was with someone, and had stronger emotional attachment. He's a _different person_ than our Strange.  Perhaps it was no longer possible for him to be come Sorcerer Supreme otherwise.


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> There is a basic rule of time travel - you cannot undo events that lead you to time travel.



Sure, but the Marvel universe doesn't follow that rule. When Thanos used the Time stone to reverse time in order to prevent Wanda from destroying the Mind stone, it didn't result in a paradox where he went back ten seconds over and over again only for some other circumstance to shatter the stone before he could claim it.


----------



## Tonguez

Rune said:


> My only problem with the episode is fundamental. I simply do not believe that the Dr. Strange who is still a surgeon would turn to mysticism for _any_ reason other than as a last resort to restore his self-identity as a god-like surgeon. Which this episode posits is never taken from him.




Unlike the movie we don’t get a scene where Dr Strange is an arrogant twat, so we have no reference for this variant being arrogant - just brilliant, in love and a risktaker. Without that fundamental arrogance his personality is defined it seems by being ‘in love’, his brilliance allows him to become a scorcerer and his risktaking leads to his choice to defy reality until its too late….


----------



## Rune

MarkB said:


> Sure, but the Marvel universe doesn't follow that rule. When Thanos used the Time stone to reverse time in order to prevent Wanda from destroying the Mind stone, it didn't result in a paradox where he went back ten seconds over and over again only for some other circumstance to shatter the stone before he could claim it.



But it probably did create an alternate timeline. The difference is that Thanos isn’t unmaking _his past self. 

That’s _where the paradox would be.


----------



## Rune

Tonguez said:


> Unlike the movie we don’t get a scene where Dr Strange is an arrogant twat, so we have no reference for this variant being arrogant - just brilliant, in love and a risktaker. Without that fundamental arrogance his personality is defined it seems by being ‘in love’, his brilliance allows him to become a scorcerer and his risktaking leads to his choice to defy reality until its too late….




I would argue that :

*1:* That fundamental arrogance was likely instrumental in becoming the brilliant surgeon who successfully performed a procedure so risky no one else would even attempt it.  

*2:* That fundamental arrogance is on display throughout the episode. 

Is it possible that both (1) isn’t true _and_ (2) is a personality shift that only happens after the accident? It’s not _impossible_. But I don’t buy it.


----------



## Ryujin

Rune said:


> The TVA doesn’t _create_ the (so-called) “sacred timeline.” They just don’t _prune_ it.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Spoiler for Season 1 of Loki
> 
> 
> 
> (Also, presumably the “sacred timeline” of the “new”  Kang-led TVA we get at the end of Season 1 is a different “sacred timeline.” One that would have produced that particular variant of Kang.)



Poor choice of words on my part. I should have said something like "just leaving."


----------



## Ryujin

trappedslider said:


> Not to be picky, but I do believe that road should have had a no passing sign due to the curve ahead. Absolute point is also done in the remake of the Time Machine. Save the girl, no point in building the time machine.



Plenty of roads in North America have signs like "No passing - Next 10 Miles", then use a solid double white/yellow line to indicate it. Of course there are many people who think they know better. You can occasionally see prime examples of this mindset in the galleries at Killboy – The ORIGINAL Dragon Photographer – Tail of the Dragon Photos


----------



## MarkB

To be fair, Strange did narrowly avoid death-by-driver-arrogance in this timeline. He evaded the oncoming car, and the crash was caused by some other speeding maniac who was clearly taking the turns with no regard for minimum stopping distances.


----------



## embee

My biggest gripe is the Cliche-Combo in the climax. Same Fight + Dueling Magic + It All Comes Down To Punching.

Otherwise, I liked it. The Twilight Zone ending kind of redeemed it.


----------



## embee

trappedslider said:


> Not to be picky, but I do believe that road should have had a no passing sign due to the curve ahead.



Welcome to the joys of driving on New York City highways.

Plus, if you're really going to be picky, your gripe should be either the lack of traffic volume or the relative pothole-free nature of the highway.


----------



## embee

Rune said:


> I would argue that :
> 
> *1:* That fundamental arrogance was likely instrumental in becoming the brilliant surgeon who successfully performed a procedure so risky no one else would even attempt it.
> 
> *2:* That fundamental arrogance is on display throughout the episode.
> 
> Is it possible that both (1) isn’t true _and_ (2) is a personality shift that only happens after the accident? It’s not _impossible_. But I don’t buy it.



Hemispherectomies are rare, and usually reserved for children with severe untreatable epilepsy, but they are done. 

And yes, it is exactly what it sounds like.


----------



## Rune

embee said:


> Hemispherectomies are rare, and usually reserved for children with severe untreatable epilepsy, but they are done.
> 
> And yes, it is exactly what it sounds like.




And what makes it a “radical” hemispherectomy? And why is completing it successfully worthy of an award?

I stand by my assessment. The fiction of the show presents the procedure as something so risky that others wouldn’t try. Or, at the very least, can’t pull off.


----------



## embee

Given that a hemispherectomy is where they remove an entire hemisphere of the brain, I'd say any successful one is pretty radical. Possibly even totally tubular. Definitely awesome at the very least.

I think that the award he was receiving was the "Huzzah! There's Not Going To Be A  Medical Malpractice Lawsuit!" Award from the Medical Insurance Underwriters' Alliance.


----------



## MarkB

Rune said:


> And what makes it a “radical” hemispherectomy? And why is completing it successfully worthy of an award?



Maybe he he invented the "radical" version of the procedure.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Sure, but the Marvel universe doesn't follow that rule. When Thanos used the Time stone to reverse time in order to prevent Wanda from destroying the Mind stone, it didn't result in a paradox where he went back ten seconds over and over again only for some other circumstance to shatter the stone before he could claim it.




I think he didn't actually travel in time there.  IIRC, Wanda _remembers_ the incident, and how Vision effectively dies twice.  If Thanos traveled back in time and undid the first death, Wanda wouldn't remember it, because it never happened.

With the stones he had in his possession, he could stay in the timestream normally, but walked some of the physical events backwards.  So, the world kept turning, but Vision got reassembled.


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> I think he didn't actually travel in time there.  IIRC, Wanda _remembers_ the incident, and how Vision effectively dies twice.  If Thanos traveled back in time and undid the first death, Wanda wouldn't remember it, because it never happened.
> 
> With the stones he had in his possession, he could stay in the timestream normally, but walked some of the physical events backwards.  So, the world kept turning, but Vision got reassembled.



Fair. The other example is, of course, the time heist. By stealing the infinity stones first, the Avengers should have prevented Thanos from getting his hands on them in this timeline and therefore from enacting the Snap that motivated the Avengers to attempt time travel. Instead, each heist splits off a new timeline.

I suppose it's possible that Strange was deliberately trying to prevent the splitting-off of a new timeline, wanting to save _his_ Christine rather than to merely create a variant of her that survived.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Fair. The other example is, of course, the time heist. By stealing the infinity stones first, the Avengers should have prevented Thanos from getting his hands on them in this timeline and therefore from enacting the Snap that motivated the Avengers to attempt time travel. Instead, each heist splits off a new timeline.




Yes.

Each time they take a stone, they take it from another branch of the timeline tree, and _bring it back_ into the original "trunk".  They then return the stones, allowing the branches to return to the trunk.  They very specifically (and explicitly - it was part of the discussion in the film) don't _undo_ anything. They don't make the Snap never happen - they just resurrect everyone. There is no net meanignful change to the past.

Strange is trying to change his own trunk, make the death never have happened, without spawning a new branch, in a way that produces a paradox.



MarkB said:


> I suppose it's possible that Strange was deliberately trying to prevent the splitting-off of a new timeline, wanting to save _his_ Christine rather than to merely create a variant of her that survived.




Exactly.


----------



## Blue

Gammadoodler said:


> Yeah, it's a bit strange that he could survive wielding the infinity gauntlet to bring back half the life in the universe, but a fancy grenade does the trick.
> 
> Seems like the kind of thing someone who's spent their career and millions/billions of US tax dollars on bringing down a monster would have thought of already.
> 
> The others all more or less made sense. That one I just had to go "sure..why not.."



It's an attack only possible with Pym Particles.  Regardless if someone's thought of it, they had no way to implement it.


----------



## Blue

darjr said:


> I thought all these were connected somehow. I think I like it better that they are not.



Interesting.  I've taken them as different universes, but with your comment I see there isn't anything supporting my take.  Or contradicting it.

I think there's be a promo showing Captain Carter with someone, so your idea may hold more water.


----------



## Blue

MarkB said:


> Fair. The other example is, of course, the time heist. By stealing the infinity stones first, the Avengers should have prevented Thanos from getting his hands on them in this timeline and therefore from enacting the Snap that motivated the Avengers to attempt time travel. Instead, each heist splits off a new timeline.



Except that they also returned all of the Stones to the exact point they left, so they are there for Thanos at a later point.

(...with the exception of the one Loki got away with.)


----------



## Rabulias

Blue said:


> Except that they also returned all of the Stones to the exact point they left, so they are there for Thanos at a later point.
> 
> (...with the exception of the one Loki got away with.)



No, that timeline got pruned by the TVA in _Loki_. At the end of _Avengers: Endgame_, Cap returned the Space Stone to the SHIELD facility in New Jersey, where it continued its original path to the start of the first _Avengers _film..


----------



## Older Beholder

One thing about that last episode,
It really showed the issues with XP leveling compared to story based /milestone leveling.


----------



## Janx

embee said:


> Given that a hemispherectomy is where they remove an entire hemisphere of the brain, I'd say any successful one is pretty radical. Possibly even totally tubular. Definitely awesome at the very least.
> 
> I think that the award he was receiving was the "Huzzah! There's Not Going To Be A  Medical Malpractice Lawsuit!" Award from the Medical Insurance Underwriters' Alliance.



That's totally rad, man!


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> Yes.
> 
> Each time they take a stone, they take it from another branch of the timeline tree, and _bring it back_ into the original "trunk".  They then return the stones, allowing the branches to return to the trunk.  They very specifically (and explicitly - it was part of the discussion in the film) don't _undo_ anything. They don't make the Snap never happen - they just resurrect everyone. There is no net meanignful change to the past.
> 
> Strange is trying to change his own trunk, make the death never have happened, without spawning a new branch, in a way that produces a paradox.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.



Let’s also remember. Strange isn’t just time traveling, he is using the elemental crystallization of time itself to rewind it. The rules don’t have to be the same as “meer time travel”


----------



## RangerWickett

I've seen too many of @Morrus;'s stories of time travel to abide how uncreative Strange was here. 

Oh, you saw your lover die, and that is what motivated you to learn magic, and now you can't change the past because then you wouldn't learn the magic to let you time travel? Sheesh, you're a _wizard_. All that matters is that past you _thinks_ his lover died.

Go back in time, freeze time when the car is about to get hit, pull her out of the car, and replace her with a magically-created fake body. Then bring her to the present day. Boom, paradox averted, girlfriend saved.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

RangerWickett said:


> Go back in time, freeze time when the car is about to get hit, pull her out of the car, and replace her with a magically-created fake body. Then bring her to the present day. Boom, paradox averted, girlfriend saved.




Go and watch the episode again. He tried to change things up, even did not show up for their date. She still died, just in ways other than the car crash. She was destined to die in that timeline and nothing could change that. And when he tried, he destroyed that universe.


----------



## RangerWickett

And I say 'bah' to that. She had to 'die' because he needed the motivation to become Sorcerer Supreme or else he couldn't time travel, and that would be a paradox. But there's no indication the universe cared about _killing her_ except that it would ensure the paradox didn't happen.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

@RangerWickett you must not like Doctor Who either, as that show also uses the "fixed point in time" reason for why the various Doctors cannot just travel back in time to change some specific events.


----------



## RangerWickett

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> @RangerWickett you must not like Doctor Who either, as that show also uses the "fixed point in time" reason for why the various Doctors cannot just travel back in time to change some specific events.




The Doctor isn't a wizard who can create illusions. And frankly, yeah, there are a fair number of Doctor Who episodes where the justification for not cheating with time travel is flimsy.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Go and watch the episode again. He tried to change things up, even did not show up for their date. She still died, just in ways other than the car crash. She was destined to die in that timeline and nothing could change that. And when he tried, he destroyed that universe.



It was only a fixed point because changing it would cause a paradox. Because without her death he doesn't gain access to the powers he'll need in order to save her.

Preserving the motivation while changing the actual event should be a valid solution.


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> It was only a fixed point because changing it would cause a paradox.



That’s the assumption strange makes, but at the end of the day it’s a fixed point because it’s a fixed point, because the universe says so. You don’t really need more explanation than that


----------



## Rune

Stalker0 said:


> That’s the assumption strange makes, but at the end of the day it’s a fixed point because it’s a fixed point, because the universe says so. You don’t really need more explanation than that



That _may_ be correct. But I think there’s room for the reverse to be true, instead. The Ancient One assumes that the Absolute Point is unalterable and Strange defies that assumption in anger, frustration, and grief – choosing a path that he knows will ultimately break time (if successful), even if he doesn’t understand or believe that doing so will also destroy the universe. 

If he were thinking clearly, though, he might instead have been able to find a different solution to the puzzle. Like going even further back in time and preemptively crushing his hands, perhaps.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Rune said:


> If he were thinking clearly, though, he might instead have been able to find a different solution to the puzzle. Like going even further back in time and preemptively crushing his hands, perhaps.




The problem with this is we are seeing an alternate version of Strange, one where the hand crushing never happened and has nothing to do with why he sought training in the mystic arts. In the movie, the core MCU timeline, he was alone in the car, so there was no one dead to save.


----------



## Ryujin

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The problem with this is we are seeing an alternate version of Strange, one where the hand crushing never happened and has nothing to do with why he sought training in the mystic arts. In the movie, the core MCU timeline, he was alone in the car, so there was no one dead to save.



And for some reason he seemingly failed to notice the other fixed point in this incident; that he didn't also die.


----------



## Rune

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The problem with this is we are seeing an alternate version of Strange, one where the hand crushing never happened and has nothing to do with why he sought training in the mystic arts. In the movie, the core MCU timeline, he was alone in the car, so there was no one dead to save.



That doesn’t really prohibit the future variant Strange from going even further back (before the accident) and changing the specific absolute point to a different one that works just as well.

Assuming that the Absolute Point is actually based on paradox, that is, and not just some arbitrary law of the universe. As my example explicitly assumed.

Of course, doing so might mean paradox anyway, because the changed Strange would be a variant in a different timeline…


----------



## Mirtek

Ryujin said:


> Well this time issue is a bit different. the TVA were pruning alternate timelines, creating just the one. The Watcher was talking about once an alternate timeline has been set and The Ancient was talking about key events, that can't be changed. In this case that key event is what created the alternate.



But if that key event is fixed, then how can the timeline created from it be the alternative? Must this then not by definition be the sacred timeline?


----------



## Rune

Mirtek said:


> But if that key event is fixed, then how can the timeline created from it be the alternative? Must this then not by definition be the sacred timeline?



The absoluteness of the Absolute Point is in relation to the timeline it is in. It is obviously not absolute within _all_ timelines, because we’ve already seen one in which it didn’t occur. 

The “sacredness” of the timeline was never a real thing. It was only a label the TVA used to excuse the pruning of _most_ timelines.


----------



## Ryujin

Rune said:


> The absoluteness of the Absolute Point is in relation to the timeline it is in. It is obviously not absolute within _all_ timelines, because we’ve already seen one in which it didn’t occur.
> 
> The “sacredness” of the timeline was never a real thing. It was only a label the TVA used to excuse the pruning of _most_ timelines.



Exactly. Changing the fixed point by someone whose actions are defined by that fixed point, in a given timeline, would be a non starter. All the possibilities that stem from the actions surrounding that fixed point would create their own alternate realities, with the people of that particular timeline bound by their own actions at that fixed point.

@Mirtek  - Confusing enough?


----------



## Gammadoodler

Blue said:


> It's an attack only possible with Pym Particles.  Regardless if someone's thought of it, they had no way to implement it.



I suppose this is true. Pym particles do seem to exist in a MacGuffin-like quantum state where they are only as plentiful or scarce as the plot requires.

Because here's the thing. Pym worked for the government...often...over a long period of time. And it's not like he was rigorously monitoring the security over thesr things. All Cap needed was a set of green dungarees and a prank phone call to yoink some right out of the middle of Pym's lab. Just doesn't seem that farfetched to me for the government that ran the lab would have and maintain a cache of a strategic resource like this.


----------



## Rune

Gammadoodler said:


> I suppose this is true. Pym particles do seem to exist in a MacGuffin-like quantum state where they are only as plentiful or scarce as the plot requires.
> 
> Because here's the thing. Pym worked for the government...often...over a long period of time. And it's not like he was rigorously monitoring the security over thesr things. All Cap needed was a set of green dungarees and a prank phone call to yoink some right out of the middle of Pym's lab. Just doesn't seem that farfetched to me for the government that ran the lab would have and maintain a cache of a strategic resource like this.



Especially since that government was 



Spoiler: Spoiler for Captain America: Winter Soldier



infiltrated by Hydra at the time. Of course, Hydra probably had no incentive to kill the Hulk, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have a contingency prepared.


----------



## Blue

Gammadoodler said:


> I suppose this is true. Pym particles do seem to exist in a MacGuffin-like quantum state where they are only as plentiful or scarce as the plot requires.
> 
> Because here's the thing. Pym worked for the government...often...over a long period of time. And it's not like he was rigorously monitoring the security over thesr things. All Cap needed was a set of green dungarees and a prank phone call to yoink some right out of the middle of Pym's lab. Just doesn't seem that farfetched to me for the government that ran the lab would have and maintain a cache of a strategic resource like this.



Sure, but we saw from the start of Ant-man and the Wasp that he was the only one with the secret to making more.  The fact that some have been yanked means that they haven't been used elsewhere, haven't been used up experimenting on them to try to reverse-engineer, or just that the chance match up of (a) the plan to use them to take out the Hulk, (b) someone who knows the Shield or the US gov't stole Pym Particles, and (c) happens while the hulk was still a threat.

For all we know that's something Ross has now in ase Hulk ever goes rogue, but didn't during the Incredible Hulk.


----------



## Maxperson

Ryujin said:


> Well this time issue is a bit different. the TVA were pruning alternate timelines, creating just the one. The Watcher was talking about once an alternate timeline has been set and The Ancient was talking about key events, that can't be changed. In this case that key event is what created the alternate.



That's not what the key event was for.  The ancient one explains that the key event of her death was to create Dr. Strange as Sorcerer Supreme and save the universe from Dormammu.  It couldn't be changed, because then he wouldn't become Dr. Strange.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Tonguez

Maxperson said:


> That's not what the key event was for.  The ancient one explains that the key event of her death was to create Dr. Strange as Sorcerer Supreme and save the universe from Dormammu.  It couldn't be changed, because then he wouldn't become Dr. Strange.



This reminded me that in the movie Strange and Palmer had broken up because of his arrogant nature, which is why he was driving alone when he had the accident. By the logic of the TVA Palmer and Strange being in love would create a new timeline AND also become an absolute point in the current timeline since without it Palmer would not be in the car to be killed in the accident etc etc. 
But we also know that in another timeline the break up happened - so why didnt the universe not reassert their break up like it did Palmers death? Why did it not keep reasserting Strange’s arrogance? 

Indeed if every decision point creates an absolute, there should be an entire series of nexus points in a lifetime that change things - when does the universe decide a certain nexus point is absolute and needs to be fulfilled?

magic and logic are Strange bedfellows….


----------



## Maxperson

Tonguez said:


> This reminded me that in the movie Strange and Palmer had broken up because of his arrogant nature, which is why he was driving alone when he had the accident. By the logic of the TVA Palmer and Strange being in love would create a new timeline AND also become an absolute point in the current timeline since without it Palmer would not be in the car to be killed in the accident etc etc.
> But we also know that in another timeline the break up happened - so why didnt the universe not reassert their break up like it did Palmers death? Why did it not keep reasserting Strange’s arrogance?



Because that wasn't the absolute point in the alternate timeline.  In the original, the breakup would have been it.  In the alternate, they didn't break up so the universe created another absolute point.  Perhaps absolute points aren't set and absolute until they happen for the first time.


----------



## Rune

Tonguez said:


> This reminded me that in the movie Strange and Palmer had broken up because of his arrogant nature, which is why he was driving alone when he had the accident. By the logic of the TVA Palmer and Strange being in love would create a new timeline AND also become an absolute point in the current timeline since without it Palmer would not be in the car to be killed in the accident etc etc.
> But we also know that in another timeline the break up happened - so why didnt the universe not reassert their break up like it did Palmers death? Why did it not keep reasserting Strange’s arrogance?
> 
> Indeed if every decision point creates an absolute, there should be an entire series of nexus points in a lifetime that change things - when does the universe decide a certain nexus point is absolute and needs to be fulfilled?
> 
> magic and logic are Strange bedfellows….



Two different timelines will have different absolute points. Why? As I understand it, absoluteness of a point is reletave to the person trying to change it. In the case of this episode, it was absolute because _Strange_ was the one trying to change it. Which is impossible, because: paradox. 

But the Ancient One _could_ have changed it, if she was so inclined. No paradox = no absolute point.


----------



## Maxperson

Rune said:


> Two different timelines will have different absolute points. Why? As I understand it, absoluteness of a point is reletave to the person trying to change it. In the case of this episode, it was absolute because _Strange_ was the one trying to change it. Which is impossible, because: paradox.
> 
> But the Ancient One _could_ have changed it, if she was so inclined. No paradox = no absolute point.



Where do you get that from?  It isn't what I gathered from that at all.  What I gathered was that it isn't an absolute point because of paradox, but rather it's an absolute point because it causes a major change in the timeline(Stephen becoming Dr. Strange).  She wouldn't have been able to change that any more than he could have.


----------



## Rune

Maxperson said:


> Where do you get that from?  It isn't what I gathered from that at all.  What I gathered was that it isn't an absolute point because of paradox, but rather it's an absolute point because it causes a major change in the timeline(Stephen becoming Dr. Strange).  She wouldn't have been able to change that any more than he could have.



The Ancient One _explicitly_ tells Strange that the _reason_ he can’t change the absolute point is because it _would result in a paradox_. 

(She actually implies it can’t be changed at all for that reason, but that can’t logically be true, because if _she_ did it, it wouldn’t result in a paradox.)


----------



## Maxperson

Rune said:


> The Ancient One _explicitly_ tells Strange that the _reason_ he can’t change the absolute point is because it _would result in a paradox_.
> 
> (She actually implies it can’t be changed at all for that reason, but that can’t logically be true, because if _she_ did it, it wouldn’t result in a paradox.)



What he says is...

Dr. Strange: Help me bring her back.

What she says is...

Ancient One.  *I can't.  No one can.*  Her death is an absolute point in time.

There is no implication.  She says straight out that nobody can change it.


----------



## Rune

Maxperson said:


> What he says is...
> 
> Dr. Strange: Help me bring her back.
> 
> What she says is...
> 
> Ancient One.  *I can't.  No one can.*  Her death is an absolute point in time.
> 
> There is no implication.  She says straight out that nobody can change it.



I misspoke. It was not an implication. It was simply logically incorrect. Or a lie.

She tells him _exactly_ why this absolute point can’t be changed: because it will mean Strange never becomes the Sorcerer Supreme. The word “paradox” comes out of Strange’s mouth, not hers, but he is clarifying what she is talking about.

But it’s only accurate for Strange. If anyone else were to try, it would not be a paradox.

Either she is _wrong_ about the cause of an absolute point, or she is wrong (or lying) when she claims that _no one_ can change it. Those are the only two possibilities.

My money is on her lying, but that’s just a guess based on her behavior across all of the timelines we’ve seen her in. She _wants_ Strange to become Sorcerer Supreme. For good reason, of course. Defeating Dormammu would be reason enough alone.



* Okay, one more possibility: she is right about the cause being a paradox _and_ right that no one can change it, but for unrelated reasons. In this case, where she is wrong is in stating that the cause of the absolute point (paradox) is meaningful in any way). This seems far-fetched to me, but the multiverse _is_ a strange place. No pun intended.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Rune said:


> I misspoke. It was not an implication. It was simply logically incorrect. Or a lie.




So you are arguing logic in a universe where magic and mutants exist?


----------



## Rune

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> So you are arguing logic in a universe where magic and mutants exist?



Internal logic, yes. 

The existence of magic or mutants in no way precludes the existence of logic. Without logic, suspension of disbelief, and hence successful fantasy, is impossible.


----------



## Maxperson

Rune said:


> I misspoke. It was not an implication. It was simply logically incorrect. Or a lie.
> 
> She tells him _exactly_ why this absolute point can’t be changed: because it will mean Strange never becomes the Sorcerer Supreme. The word “paradox” comes out of Strange’s mouth, not hers, but he is clarifying what she is talking about.



Or he's assuming.  She's telling him that nobody can change it, because the universe won't allow it.  It's a fixed point in history.


Rune said:


> But it’s only accurate for Strange. If anyone else were to try, it would not be a paradox.



Now you're assuming.  Dr. Strange isn't all knowing. He can be wrong and say something that, and if you take what he says in the context of what she said, you can see that he's guessing.  She then corrects him and says he's wrong. She doesn't need to do that.  There's no reason to tell him that nobody can change it since she wouldn't help him anyway.


Rune said:


> Either she is _wrong_ about the cause of an absolute point, or she is wrong (or lying) when she claims that _no one_ can change it. Those are the only two possibilities.



No.  That's a pretty hefty False Dichotomy.  She could be telling the truth and he could be wrong.


Rune said:


> * Okay, one more possibility: she is right about the cause being a paradox _and_ right that no one can change it, but for unrelated reasons. In this case, where she is wrong is in stating that the cause of the absolute point (paradox) is meaningful in any way). This seems far-fetched to me, but the multiverse _is_ a strange place. No pun intended.



That would be a fourth possibility.  Paradox may not be the reason at all.


----------



## Maxperson

Rune said:


> The Ancient One _explicitly_ tells Strange that the _reason_ he can’t change the absolute point is because it _would result in a paradox_.



No she doesn't.  She never says or implies that at all.  Strange guess that it would be a paradox if he did it, but she maintains that nobody can change the fixed point and she could easily be telling the truth. Paradox may not even be against the marvel universe rules. We just don't know.


----------



## Rune

Maxperson said:


> No she doesn't.  She never says or implies that at all.  Strange guess that it would be a paradox if he did it, but she maintains that nobody can change the fixed point and she could easily be telling the truth. Paradox may not even be against the marvel universe rules. We just don't know.



Her exact words: “Without her death, you would never have defeated Dormammu and become the Sorcerer Supreme, and the guardian of the Eye of Agamotto. If you erase her death, you never start your journey.”

This is _the_ reason she gives for the point being absolute. Her words, not mine. _That_ reason _that she describes_ is a paradox!


----------



## Maxperson

Rune said:


> Her exact words: “Without her death, you would never have defeated Dormammu and become the Sorcerer Supreme, and the guardian of the Eye of Agamotto. If you erase her death, you never start your journey.”



Correct.  That is not paradox.  It's just the universe wanting him to go the way it wants him to go.  If SHE prevents his girlfriend from dying, he never defeats Dormammu without paradox, so she can't do it either.  You're reading into her words that which is not there.  She tells him the truth.  NOBODY can prevent her death.

It's entirely possible that there are two reasons he cannot prevent the death.  1) it would be a paradox.  2) It's a fixed point.

There's no reason to assume that she is lying and paradox is the only reason, if it's even a reason.


----------



## Rune

Maxperson said:


> Correct.  That is not paradox.  It's just the universe wanting him to go the way it wants him to go.  If SHE prevents his girlfriend from dying, he never defeats Dormammu without paradox, so she can't do it either.  You're reading into her words that which is not there.  She tells him the truth.  NOBODY can prevent her death.
> 
> It's entirely possible that there are two reasons he cannot prevent the death.  1) it would be a paradox.  2) It's a fixed point.
> 
> There's no reason to assume that she is lying and paradox is the only reason, if it's even a reason.



I don’t think you and I are operating within the same language. Specifically, when the Ancient One EXPLICITLY describes the reason something cannot be changed as being because it would prevent that change from being possible, that change _is what a paradox_ _is!_

That’s not an opinion; it’s an objecive definition. If you’re operating on some other definition I’m not aware of, that’s fine, I guess. But _I_ don’t have anything to add to this discussion, since I’ve already said everything I’ve meant to and repeating myself ad infinitum is pointless.

It seems you and I have gotten caught in our own conversational time-loop, but I’m going to have to break free of that. If you wish to continue on, feel free to consider the contents this post my response to any future iterations of that cycle.


----------



## Gammadoodler

Blue said:


> Sure, but we saw from the start of Ant-man and the Wasp that he was the only one with the secret to making more.  The fact that some have been yanked means that they haven't been used elsewhere, haven't been used up experimenting on them to try to reverse-engineer, or just that the chance match up of (a) the plan to use them to take out the Hulk, (b) someone who knows the Shield or the US gov't stole Pym Particles, and (c) happens while the hulk was still a threat.
> 
> For all we know that's something Ross has now in ase Hulk ever goes rogue, but didn't during the Incredible Hulk.



We could litigate timelines related to a series predicated on the existence of alternate universes, but that seems maybe a bit silly. 

Ultimately, my real hang-up, such as it is, is that the Hulk can handle the combined energy of the Infinity stones, but a little growth grenade takes him out.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Gammadoodler said:


> Ultimately, my real hang-up, such as it is, is that the Hulk can handle the combined energy of the Infinity stones, but a little growth grenade takes him out.




Does every version of the Hulk in every timeline have to be equally as powerful and as hard to kill?


----------



## Gammadoodler

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Does every version of the Hulk in every timeline have to be equally as powerful and as hard to kill?



Not at all. It was just jarring to see. It's a bit like if Superman got killed by normal bullet. 

I eventually got to "Sure, why not, it's speculative mythology anyway", but hadn't had to make that conscious effort to just accept other events in the episode.


----------



## Ryujin

Gammadoodler said:


> We could litigate timelines related to a series predicated on the existence of alternate universes, but that seems maybe a bit silly.
> 
> Ultimately, my real hang-up, such as it is, is that the Hulk can handle the combined energy of the Infinity stones, but a little growth grenade takes him out.



Well considering that means The Hulk essentially took out The Hulk...


----------



## Rune

Gammadoodler said:


> Not at all. It was just jarring to see. It's a bit like if Superman got killed by normal bullet.
> 
> I eventually got to "Sure, why not, it's speculative mythology anyway", but hadn't had to make that conscious effort to just accept other events in the episode.



Really? It seems much more like if Superman was killed by a kryptonite bullet to me. There’s nothing _normal_ about Pym-tech. 

Also, _Endgame_ establishes that the Hulk can survive the use of the infinity stones solely because the primary type of radiation they will release (gamma) is exactly the stuff he is uniquely capable of surviving. It isn’t because he’s powerful enough. It’s because gamma radiation is what made him the Hulk in the first place. 

And even so, he is still severely wounded by it.


----------



## MarkB

Ryujin said:


> Well considering that means The Hulk essentially took out The Hulk...



Yeah, it's basically the unstoppable force versus the immovable object. The Hulk's infinitely-durable heart is attempting to expand enormously inside his infinitely-durable chest, and something's got to give. Meanwhile, all the blood that got pumped through his heart as it was subjected to the expansion is having the same struggle on a smaller scale against his blood vessels. He literally rips himself apart with his own strength and resilience.


----------



## Gammadoodler

Ryujin said:


> Well considering that means The Hulk essentially took out The Hulk...



It's a contrivance that works because the underlying mechanics are never explained. It's science magic. It works because the writer says it does. 

Don't get me wrong,  comic books and the MCU have plenty of that. This was just done so more nakedly than others.


----------



## Gammadoodler

Rune said:


> Really? It seems much more like if Superman was killed by a kryptonite bullet to me. There’s nothing _normal_ about Pym-tech.
> 
> Also, _Endgame_ establishes that the Hulk can survive the use of the infinity stones solely because the primary type of radiation they will release (gamma) is exactly the stuff he is uniquely capable of surviving. It isn’t because he’s powerful enough. It’s because gamma radiation is what made him the Hulk in the first place.
> 
> And even so, he is still severely wounded by it.



As


Rune said:


> Really? It seems much more like if Superman was killed by a kryptonite bullet to me. There’s nothing _normal_ about Pym-tech.
> 
> Also, _Endgame_ establishes that the Hulk can survive the use of the infinity stones solely because the primary type of radiation they will release (gamma) is exactly the stuff he is uniquely capable of surviving. It isn’t because he’s powerful enough. It’s because gamma radiation is what made him the Hulk in the first place.
> 
> And even so, he is still severely wounded by it.



As far as I'm aware, there is no canonical link to the Hulk's vulnerability to Pymtech that is remotely equivalent to kryptonite for Superman. I'm certainly not an expert though; perhaps I just haven't seen it. There is, however  quite a backlog of traumatic events which the Hulk has survived. 

This is also ignoring the particulars of exactly how the Pymtech works. Why does it only effect the heart and not the full body? We didn't see crayons or Thomas the train engine ripped apart by differential expansion. Just here. Of course, the answer has to be "well this one was made especially for the Hulk". And that works, but only because the writers say it does.

It's a punchline with no setup.


----------



## Rune

Gammadoodler said:


> As
> 
> As far as I'm aware, there is no canonical link to the Hulk's vulnerability to Pymtech that is remotely equivalent to kryptonite for Superman. I'm certainly not an expert though; perhaps I just haven't seen it. There is, however  quite a backlog of traumatic events which the Hulk has survived.
> 
> This is also ignoring the particulars of exactly how the Pymtech works. Why does it only effect the heart and not the full body? We didn't see crayons or Thomas the train engine ripped apart by differential expansion. Just here. Of course, the answer has to be "well this one was made especially for the Hulk". And that works, but only because the writers say it does.
> 
> It's a punchline with no setup.



Just to establish a baseline: I don’t think any non-MCU versions of the Hulk or Pym-tech are relevant to understanding what’s going on in the show. 

MCU Hulk has never been shown to have powers _remotely_ equivalent to some of the comics. 

As for the resizing device? I don’t think it’s any different than the ones we’ve seen Hank toss around plenty of times before. 

You do raise one very good question, though. 

Since Hulk’s heart is connected to the rest of him, shouldn’t his whole body grow proportionally? The Pym-tech _might_ not work that way, but my guess is that this part _is_ hand-wavery.


----------



## Older Beholder

The Lizard Wizard said:


> I imagine the zombie episode isn't going to be too cheery either




So, I wasn’t completely right. Today‘s episode had it’s far share of humour.


----------



## Tonguez

Ep 5 Zombies

I actually liked this story, _at least once I chewed it over_, mainly for the range of characters used and the overall _hope_fulness.
Baba Yaga foreshadowing, Hulk gets redeemed - but the end scene!


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> Yeah, it's basically the unstoppable force versus the immovable object.



as a funny aside, this commonly cited “paradox” is really no paradox at all. An unstoppable force would simply move through an immovable object without affecting it. Done and done.


----------



## embee

The Lizard Wizard said:


> So, I wasn’t completely right. Today‘s episode had it’s far share of humour.



I got real tired real quick of Lang's quipping. 

I think it was tonally all over the place and not in a good way. Then again, with only a couple exceptions, I like my zombie apocalypse bleak and depressing. For me, the best ZA stories are 28 Days Later and "The Grove" episode of TWD.


----------



## Rune

embee said:


> I got real tired real quick of Lang's quipping.
> 
> I think it was tonally all over the place and not in a good way. Then again, with only a couple exceptions, I like my zombie apocalypse bleak and depressing. For me, the best ZA stories are 28 Days Later and "The Grove" episode of TWD.



I like my zombie stories to be about inter-personal conflict, as per Romero’s films. This episode wasn’t very much of that. 

But the zombies were slow and lumbering, as they should be, so that’s good. Fast zombies are boring. Why even bother making them zombies at that point? 

Conclusion: this episode was…alright.


----------



## MarkB

The last couple of these do feel like a waste of an episode. 



Spoiler



If the answer to the "what if?" is "everything is awful, the whole universe dies", that's not really an interesting scenario.


----------



## Rune

MarkB said:


> The last couple of these do feel like a waste of an episode. If the answer to the "what if?" is "everything is awful, the whole universe dies", that's not really an interesting scenario.



It isn’t a waste if the purpose is to drive home the idea that there _real_ stakes in the multiversal adventures to come. They probably won’t be able to explore that facet _very_ thoroughly in the movies.


----------



## MarkB

Rune said:


> It isn’t a waste if the purpose is to drive home the idea that there _real_ stakes in the multiversal adventures to come. They probably won’t be able to explore that facet _very_ thoroughly in the movies.



It just feels a bit like stating the obvious. We already know that in the really big movies the stakes are very high, and that if things had gone even a little bit differently, it would have ended in disaster. If Doctor Strange spelling out the odds of success at 1 in 14,000,605 isn't enough, I'm not sure what is.


----------



## Rune

MarkB said:


> It just feels a bit like stating the obvious. We already know that in the really big movies the stakes are very high, and that if things had gone even a little bit differently, it would have ended in disaster. If Doctor Strange spelling out the odds of success at 1 in 14,000,605 isn't enough, I'm not sure what is.



It’s not a statement of the concept. It’s a reinforcement. And a reasonably subtle one, at that, given that they aren’t specifically calling out the implications these failed universes will have on the multiverse at large. 

Other than the Watcher’s comments that saving them would somehow mean catastrophe for the rest, of course.


----------



## Rabulias

MarkB said:


> If the answer to the "what if?" is "everything is awful, the whole universe dies", that's not really an interesting scenario.



Hmmm.... I think this _What If? _show is really one of the TVA's propaganda tools.


----------



## trappedslider

well....that was a downer.....


----------



## Stalker0

Zombies episode was a letdown to me, I agree with the “tonally all over the place”


----------



## Blue

I wasn't sure why some people, like Happy and Sharon, turned instantly and fought, while others like Hope lingered for a long time.

As a side note, my favorite zombie movie is "Train to Busan", especially since here in the US movies seem to mandated to have happy endings, and that one does not follow US tropes.

Just as I can enjoy that the What If...? are not mandated to have happy endings.  They don't need to all live and fight another day, and this is one of the few medias they can show that since it's not the same universe as the MCU.  (For now...)


----------



## Stalker0

Blue said:


> Just as I can enjoy that the What If...? are not mandated to have happy endings.  They don't need to all live and fight another day, and this is one of the few medias they can show that since it's not the same universe as the MCU.  (For now...)



There is no mandate on a happy ending, but a satisfying ending is still desired. The rules of modern storytelling (at least from an American culture perspective) is that the ending is crafted in part by the actions of the Protagonists.

In the last episode, this occurred. Strange's obsession is what led to the end, as was the inability of his twin to stop him. So even though it was a dark ending, I found it a satisfying one.

In this one, we see the heroes go for a cure.....and then Thanos just snaps his fingers and probably messes up everything they did... completely separate from the actions of the Protagonists. Its the storytelling equivalent of "rocks fall you all die"

Is that a realistic ending?....sure. Its just not a satisfying one.


----------



## MarkB

Blue said:


> I wasn't sure why some people, like Happy and Sharon, turned instantly and fought, while others like Hope lingered for a long time.



Degree of exposure, I assumed. Happy and Sharon were full-on chomped, but Hope only got a small scratch.


----------



## billd91

MarkB said:


> Degree of exposure, I assumed. Happy and Sharon were full-on chomped, but Hope only got a small scratch.



Death was what mattered. Happy and Sharon were fatally attacked, Hope wasn’t. She didn’t die until she was mobbed getting the heroes into the base.


----------



## MarkB

billd91 said:


> Death was what mattered. Happy and Sharon were fatally attacked, Hope wasn’t. She didn’t die until she was mobbed getting the heroes into the base.



That would have been a major factor. Also, she was infected by Sharon, who'd only just been turned, and might not have been very virulent yet.


----------



## Janx

Rune said:


> Her exact words: “Without her death, you would never have defeated Dormammu and become the Sorcerer Supreme, and the guardian of the Eye of Agamotto. If you erase her death, you never start your journey.”
> 
> This is _the_ reason she gives for the point being absolute. Her words, not mine. _That_ reason _that she describes_ is a paradox!



except that we know that if we break Strange's hands, he will become Dr. Strange as well.

The reason we (some of us) the audience are balking at the Absolute Point claim is because we KNOW it can be done differently.


----------



## MarkB

Janx said:


> except that we know that if we break Strange's hands, he will become Dr. Strange as well.



Maybe, maybe not. This is a variant who managed to overcome his self-absorption sufficiently to maintain a stable relationship. Maybe he wouldn't be driven to such desperation by his hands' injuries.


----------



## Janx

Another sad episode.

Plenty to nitpick.  Zombeye's good bow arm should have rotted off by the time he got from San Francisco to NYC
It's pretty far fetched that he and ZombCap happened to wander from the west coast to the east coast.  That's a long hike for random shambling.  Maybe strange popped them over to "help" before losing control.

All the zombie heroes seemed to have good control of their powers despite being zombies. though without that, zombie avengers wouldn't be more dangerous.

Hope should have normal-sized and disabled her rig as her last dying act after dropping the kids off.  She knew what was coming.

T'Challa should not have flown his plane over the giant zombie. We all saw that coming

Thanos should really do some recon before he goes down to the planet.  Maybe send a rover.


----------



## ART!

MarkB said:


> Maybe, maybe not. This is a variant who managed to overcome his self-absorption sufficiently to maintain a stable relationship. Maybe he wouldn't be driven to such desperation by his hands' injuries.



This is the only real problem I have with this show: each episode seems to have not just one turning point, but _multiple_ turning points.


----------



## Rune

Janx said:


> except that we know that if we break Strange's hands, he will become Dr. Strange as well.
> 
> The reason we (some of us) the audience are balking at the Absolute Point claim is because we KNOW it can be done differently.



Except that the moment he did things differently, he would create a variant timeline. The original (from the perspective of the episode) would continue on as scheduled. It’s that original timeline that concerns the Ancient One.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> except that we know that if we break Strange's hands, he will become Dr. Strange as well.




That's not necessarily true.

If you break _OUR_ Strange's hands, he will become the Sorcerer Supreme.  But the Strange in "What If...?" was emotionally a different man.  The major difference is seen in how he had embraced an loving romantic connection ours did not.  The point of variance isn't in the death of his girlfriend, but earlier, before the show, when he opened his heart to her.

It is possible that, with that connection, broken hands wouldn't lead him on that journey - he'd have someone else to lean on, and not have quite so much drive to regain what he had lost, but instead find a way forward with his damaged hands.

Edit:  Whoops, someone already made this argument.  Sorry for the repetition.


----------



## Umbran

ART! said:


> This is the only real problem I have with this show: each episode seems to have not just one turning point, but _multiple_ turning points.




Life has multiple turning points.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> Another sad episode.
> 
> Plenty to nitpick.  Zombeye's good bow arm should have rotted off by the time he got from San Francisco to NYC
> It's pretty far fetched that he and ZombCap happened to wander from the west coast to the east coast.  That's a long hike for random shambling.  Maybe strange popped them over to "help" before losing control.




Well, zombie Strange still has his powers - so he can fetch them after he becomes a zombie.


----------



## Stalker0

Janx said:


> ...That's a long hike for random shambling.  Maybe strange popped them over to "help" before losing control.
> 
> All the zombie heroes seemed to have good control of their powers despite being zombies. though without that, zombie avengers wouldn't be more dangerous.



I don't think that's a nitpick but a plotpoint. These are not your stereotypical dumb zombies, the infected seem for the most part to maintain some rationale and drive. And the Avengers being the super extra driven people they are...it makes sense that they are still getting around.

In fact the one thing I give this episode props for, this is an actual believable zombie apocolpype. The fact that people maintain a good amount of their intelligence and speed, combined with the super super super fast spread of the infection.... yeah this is actually a world killing zombie plague, as opposed to most zombie plagues where a well supplied and trained fighting force could easily take out.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> ... yeah this is actually a world killing zombie plague, as opposed to most zombie plagues where a well supplied and trained fighting force could easily take out.




Ever read (not watch, but _read_) World War Z?  The Battle of Yonkers....


----------



## ART!

Umbran said:


> That's not necessarily true.
> 
> If you break _OUR_ Strange's hands, he will become the Sorcerer Supreme.  But the Strange in "What If...?" was emotionally a different man.  The major difference is seen in how he had embraced an loving romantic connection ours did not.  The point of variance isn't in the death of his girlfriend, but earlier, before the show, when he opened his heart to her.
> 
> It is possible that, with that connection, broken hands wouldn't lead him on that journey - he'd have someone else to lean on, and not have quite so much drive to regain what he had lost, but instead find a way forward with his damaged hands.






Umbran said:


> Life has multiple turning points.



Sure, great, but we're not talking about "life", we're talking about drama, and in this case drama trimmed down to 30 minutes or so, with parts of a 2-hour movie for some context. The turning point in the Dr. Strange _What-If..?._ episode is some change in his character at some unknown point in his past that the story doesn't explain or even reference, but instead treats the death as a the turning point, which it isn't. It's an odd story-telling choice.

That said, it's probably my favorite _What-If...?_ ep so far.


----------



## Umbran

ART! said:


> Sure, great, but we're not talking about "life", we're talking about drama, and in this case drama trimmed down to 30 minutes or so, with parts of a 2-hour movie for some context. The turning point in the Dr. Strange _What-If..?._ episode is some change in his character at some unknown point in his past that the story doesn't explain or even reference, but instead treats the death as a the turning point, which it isn't. It's an odd story-telling choice.
> 
> That said, it's probably my favorite _What-If...?_ ep so far.




So, I think it is good to think of "What If..?" episodes as _short stories_ rather than novels.  The short story, as a medium, makes great use of _implied_ story, rather than explicit story.


----------



## Blue

Stalker0 said:


> There is no mandate on a happy ending, but a satisfying ending is still desired. The rules of modern storytelling (at least from an American culture perspective) is that the ending is crafted in part by the actions of the Protagonists.
> 
> In the last episode, this occurred. Strange's obsession is what led to the end, as was the inability of his twin to stop him. So even though it was a dark ending, I found it a satisfying one.
> 
> In this one, we see the heroes go for a cure.....and then Thanos just snaps his fingers and probably messes up everything they did... completely separate from the actions of the Protagonists. Its the storytelling equivalent of "rocks fall you all die"
> 
> Is that a realistic ending?....sure. Its just not a satisfying one.



Um, Thanos didn't snap.  He doesn't have the Mind Stone yet.  We know the heroes have it, and it was quite obvious it is missing from the glove.  That scene was foreshadowing that Zombie Thanos is coming, not undoing anything the protagonists did.  And it was an appropriate capstone for starting with the Children of Thanos showing at the beginning of the episode.


----------



## ART!

Umbran said:


> So, I think it is good to think of "What If..?" episodes as _short stories_ rather than novels.  The short story, as a medium, makes great use of _implied_ story, rather than explicit story.



I don't know: they had 30 minutes - a lot of it consisting of exotic visuals - so I feel like they could have spared 30 seconds (or - gasp - more!) of dialogue to suggest why Strange was more emotionally available, especially considering not being emotionally available was one of his defining characteristics in his origin story.


----------



## Umbran

ART! said:


> I don't know: they had 30 minutes - a lot of it consisting of exotic visuals - so I feel like they could have spared 30 seconds (or - gasp - more!) of dialogue to suggest why Strange was more emotionally available




Sure.  But, they "could have" done tons of stuff.  Every single member of the audience will have their own list of things they "could have" done. 

I am generally okay with unresolved questions in short stories.  They are a mainstay of the form.  It is a variation of, "Not everything has to be tied up in a neat bow."


----------



## ART!

Umbran said:


> Sure.  But, they "could have" done tons of stuff.  Every single member of the audience will have their own list of things they "could have" done.
> 
> I am generally okay with unresolved questions in short stories.  They are a mainstay of the form.  It is a variation of, "Not everything has to be tied up in a neat bow."



Sure, but how much of those "could haves" would be as relevant as "why is this character whose origin hinges on his emotional unavailability now suddenly emotionally available?" Maybe that aspect of the character just stands out to me.

The storytelling in that episode is good enough that this flaw doesn't throw off my enjoyment of the other aspects of it, but I still consider it a flaw.

Anyway, like a lot of people, I found the _...Zombies_ episode tonally jarring. Also, is there any suggestion in the episode about how Thanos - seen as a zombie at the very end - _gets_ zombified?

EDIT: I assume he goes to Wakanda for the Mind Stone, and doesn't have enough of the other Stones already to not get infected.


----------



## embee

Janx said:


> Thanos should really do some recon before he goes down to the planet. Maybe send a rover.



That's also the fatal flaw in every episode of Star Trek. 

Just because it's a Class M planet doesn't mean that there aren't harmful pathogens present.


----------



## Ryujin

embee said:


> That's also the fatal flaw in every episode of Star Trek.
> 
> Just because it's a Class M planet doesn't mean that there aren't harmful pathogens present.



It even implies that there WOULD BE harmful pathogens present, because that's part of life.


----------



## Stalker0

ART! said:


> Also, is there any suggestion in the episode about how Thanos - seen as a zombie at the very end - _gets_ zombified?



A fair question, considering what stark had to do for a “drop of blood”, what earth zombie could actually spread the disease to Thanos…even before you consider the stones he already has


----------



## BRayne

Stalker0 said:


> A fair question, considering what stark had to do for a “drop of blood”, what earth zombie could actually spread the disease to Thanos…even before you consider the stones he already has




Pym or Janet maybe?


----------



## embee

Ryujin said:


> It even implies that there WOULD BE harmful pathogens present, because that's part of life.



Given our own history of inadvertently destroying ecosystems via exploration, not to mention the "twist" ending of "The War of the Worlds," Away Missions run directly contrary to the Prime Directive.


----------



## MarkB

Stalker0 said:


> A fair question, considering what stark had to do for a “drop of blood”, what earth zombie could actually spread the disease to Thanos…even before you consider the stones he already has



Some of his army are pretty big and bitey. Maybe the disease spread to them, and through them, thence to Thanos.


----------



## Dire Bare

Janx said:


> Hope should have normal-sized and disabled her rig as her last dying act after dropping the kids off.  She knew what was coming. T'Challa should not have flown his plane over the giant zombie. We all saw that coming




You're right, of course, but . . . then we wouldn't have gotten a Giant-Woman Zombie! Which was cool! People make bad calls all the time in real life, so to have an Avenger make a bad call when being swarmed by tiny zombies trying to eat her . . . . I'm fine with it.



> Thanos should really do some recon before he goes down to the planet.  Maybe send a rover.




Hah! Definitely! He's pretty arrogant though, so I think it's in character. Another bad call.


----------



## Ryujin

embee said:


> Given our own history of inadvertently destroying ecosystems via exploration, not to mention the "twist" ending of "The War of the Worlds," Away Missions run directly contrary to the Prime Directive.



TOS episode "The Trouble With Tribbles" was all about invasive species. Not quite plague blankets, but in the running.


----------



## fba827

So far, we’ve had …..

(1) old time war genre
(2) a heist genre set in space
(3) a spy mystery genre (I say mystery loosely as the short run time made the signals for the reveal early on, so not much mystery really)
(4) I’m not sure what to call this genre other than a dark psychological self reflection
(5) zombie horror (with splash of zombie comedy the real)

Guessing something with a very light comedy tone
Any guesses on other genres to come?    There’s what, 8 episodes total this season?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I did notice that the leaked order of the episodes was either off or Disney switched it up on purpose, as I think the Party Thor episode was supposed to be #5 and Zombies was supposed to be #8. I am guessing they wanted to get the downer episodes done and we get the humorous Party Thor next.

@fba827 there are 9 episodes this season and 9 episodes already planned for season 2.


----------



## Stalker0

Dire Bare said:


> You're right, of course, but . . . then we wouldn't have gotten a Giant-Woman Zombie! Which was cool! People make bad calls all the time in real life, so to have an Avenger make a bad call when being swarmed by tiny zombies trying to eat her . . . . I'm fine with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Hah! Definitely! He's pretty arrogant though, so I think it's in character. Another bad call.



The other option is.... like in the OP universe Thanos uses the space stone to warp in. So he may have had no warning, he just pops in to claim his prize and booom....zombies.


----------



## Mirtek

Stalker0 said:


> The other option is.... like in the OP universe Thanos uses the space stone to warp in. So he may have had no warning, he just pops in to claim his prize and booom....zombies.



But why would he arrive in Wakanda? He only went there because the mindstone was there, he should have arrived at the shield base instead


----------



## Mirtek

Umbran said:


> Ever read (not watch, but _read_) World War Z?  The Battle of Yonkers....



Which wouldn't have worked. Even though the author tries hard to come up with reasons why the military would choose the most terrible tactic to go for show effect rather than efficiency, even that would have wasted the zombie horde easily.


----------



## MarkB

I thought we were beyond the point where anybody could credibly say "there's no way people would really be stupid enough to let a deadly plague spread across the world."


----------



## Umbran

Mirtek said:


> Which wouldn't have worked. Even though the author tries hard to come up with reasons why the military would choose the most terrible tactic to go for show effect rather than efficiency, even that would have wasted the zombie horde easily.




Because the US military has ever had a single day in which they kill a million enemies?

I mean, it is an entire hypothetical, with an enemy that does not really obey physical reality, so you can believe what you will, but to assert that the military can "easily" do a thing that it has never in history done before seems a bit much.  If wiping a million bodies off the map was all that easy for them, many real historical conflicts should have gone differently, no?


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> I thought we were beyond the point where anybody could credibly say "there's no way people would really be stupid enough to let a deadly plague spread across the world."



Humans are funny that way. Give them an in your face threat, and they rise together like a great wave to crush it to bits.

give them a slow threat that builds, and it’s the frog in the frying pan scenario


----------



## Mirtek

Umbran said:


> Because the US military has ever had a single day in which they kill a million enemies?
> 
> I mean, it is an entire hypothetical, with an enemy that does not really obey physical reality, so you can believe what you will, but to assert that the military can "easily" do a thing that it has never in history done before seems a bit much.  If wiping a million bodies off the map was all that easy for them, many real historical conflicts should have gone differently, no?



Slow moving unarmored infantry without any regard to tactic, self-preservation and zero ranged capability? They'd have a field day, even if they deliberately deploy for show effect rather than maximum effiency.

If there ever would have been a historical conflict like that, it would have been over so quickly, if would not even be called a conflict (probably massaker or something similiar)

The author tries to have his cake and eat it too by insisting that his version obeys physical reality (except for the Z-virus thing) and then proceeds to get the implications of his own premises wrong.

His Zombie Survival Guide explains how his Z's are supposed to work. They're still human bodies with all the limitations of the human body (save for being hard to kill), like how it states there never has been an outbreak starting from burried dead in a graveyard since despite being zombiefied they're just human bodies and a human body is simply not strong enough to dig himself out of a proper grave.

So just shooting one of those zombies in the leg will actually hamper it. The zombie is still relying on his sinew and muscles for locomotion.

He might not feel pain, he might not bleed out, but by getting shot in the leg a part of those muscles and sinew are now shredded and no longer available for locomotion. And the structural integrity is now gone too. So without pain to warn him to stop, the zombie will increase the damage with every shuffling step he takes until the whole leg won't be able to move anymore soon enough.

The author spends too much time pointing out how hard it is to actually kill the zombies with guns and rifles, as any hits not in the hit are supposedly  worthless. But he ignores that they would not be worthless at all. With how he choses to explain his zombies those hits would all have great effect, even if the zombie isn't dead. They are quite easy it is to incapacitate if we follow the rules he himself set for his zombies.

Sure, most zombies would technically not be destroyed after the military's initial strikes, but they would be in an even less threatening state. They would not be able to relentlessly advance, shrugging of any gunfire that fails to hit their brains. They'd very soon be reduced to crawling and then just being unable to move forward at all. 

After that it's just a matter to not let a zombie bite you're ankle or grab your leg when when you have to unpleasant task to truly kill all those prone zombies.

Even if they were to somehow swarm a tank or APC that got stuck, they would not be able to break it open. The embarassed crew would just have to wait for rescue and live with being ridiculed for the rest of their service


----------



## Davies

Mirtek said:


> But why would he arrive in Wakanda? He only went there because the mindstone was there, he should have arrived at the shield base instead



My guess is that he arrived at the site of Zombie Strange's demise to get the Time Stone from the remains, and was ambushed by a zombie that managed to get through his tough skin there, making it all the way to Wakanda before he succumbed. Admittedly, that just defers the explanation of 'why go to Wakanda' ... maybe he retained enough Time Stone-granted awareness to know that the Mind Stone was going to go there?


----------



## Stalker0

Mirtek said:


> Slow moving unarmored infantry without any regard to tactic, self-preservation and zero ranged capability? They'd have a field day, even if they deliberately deploy for show effect rather than maximum effiency.



This.

Hell if your dealing with slow zombies, all you need is:

Two lines of spearman
A few "spotters" whose job it is to pull any of their buddies out of the fire that get tripped up, or just in case of any shenanigan's. They are also watching for zombies in unexpected places.
A few supply people, who ensure their spearman always have spears. Obviously some will get lost or broken as the fight goes on.
First line stabs the zombies and steps back. Second line stabs the zombies and steps back. Rinse and Repeat. As long as you have space you can basically kill infinite zombies. You can do it with a single line, but two lines gives you a bit more coverage and lets each line work at a leisurely pace so they don't fatigue too quickly.

Just start outside a populated area, blow the horn to get the zombies to come to you in a nice open field, and just begin the work. It might take a while but you will easily clear out an area of hundreds of zombies in short order.

As cool as slow zombies can look....there's no way they take out the world. At least in the World War Z movie, the zombies are so crazy fast and do that crazy group up thing that at least makes them a credible threat.


----------



## Ryujin

Stalker0 said:


> This.
> 
> Hell if your dealing with slow zombies, all you need is:
> 
> Two lines of spearman
> A few "spotters" whose job it is to pull any of their buddies out of the fire that get tripped up, or just in case of any shenanigan's. They are also watching for zombies in unexpected places.
> A few supply people, who ensure their spearman always have spears. Obviously some will get lost or broken as the fight goes on.
> First line stabs the zombies and steps back. Second line stabs the zombies and steps back. Rinse and Repeat. As long as you have space you can basically kill infinite zombies. You can do it with a single line, but two lines gives you a bit more coverage and lets each line work at a leisurely pace so they don't fatigue too quickly.
> 
> Just start outside a populated area, blow the horn to get the zombies to come to you in a nice open field, and just begin the work. It might take a while but you will easily clear out an area of hundreds of zombies in short order.
> 
> As cool as slow zombies can look....there's no way they take out the world. At least in the World War Z movie, the zombies are so crazy fast and do that crazy group up thing that at least makes them a credible threat.



The sheer weight of numbers, or just plain weight, would eventually do you in. No matter how many lines you've got, you can only kill them so quickly. Especially so, given the "shoot 'em in the head" limitation. Use pikes and spears, and you eventually have opponents who are too close to do anything about without giving up that distance advantage. They keep going all day. You have to stop to rest/eat/take a bio-break. Pack them in closely enough and you can't even move those weapons anymore.

Remember one important thing; the dead always outnumber the living.


----------



## Stalker0

Ryujin said:


> The sheer weight of numbers, or just plain weight, would eventually do you in. No matter how many lines you've got, you can only kill them so quickly. Especially so, given the "shoot 'em in the head" limitation. Use pikes and spears, and you eventually have opponents who are too close to do anything about without giving up that distance advantage. They keep going all day. You have to stop to rest/eat/take a bio-break. Pack them in closely enough and you can't even move those weapons anymore.
> 
> Remember one important thing; the dead always outnumber the living.



But if we are talking slow zombies, a line of spears can very easily keep distance with them. Again, the goal is a nice open field where you have plenty of distance. If the zombies get a little too close for comfort....you fast walk away....you don't even need to run really. If there are just too many zombies, have the truck come around, everyone do a light jog to it....and then drive away to recuperate. 

The problem a lot of zombie shows (walking dead especially) did was how the "sudden" or surprise zombies just come out of nowhere in order to suddenly create tension, but that is a ridiculous conceit, especially considering those zombies are not quiet, they are shuffling, gurgling, often making a half scream at their people, they are not stealthy in the slightest.

But if you just have a big mass of zombies coming at you....speed is your friend. Kill and move, kill and move.... you drill some people on that maneuver until it becomes second nature and no zombie is going to catch them. We also have to remember that the corpses you leave behind are your friends, as now the remaining zombies have to shuffle through this line of bodies, that will slow them, trip them, and further prevent them from engaging you too closely.


----------



## Rune

Stalker0 said:


> But if we are talking slow zombies, a line of spears can very easily keep distance with them. Again, the goal is a nice open field where you have plenty of distance. If the zombies get a little too close for comfort....you fast walk away....you don't even need to run really. If there are just too many zombies, have the truck come around, everyone do a light jog to it....and then drive away to recuperate.
> 
> The problem a lot of zombie shows (walking dead especially) did was how the "sudden" or surprise zombies just come out of nowhere in order to suddenly create tension, but that is a ridiculous conceit, especially considering those zombies are not quiet, they are shuffling, gurgling, often making a half scream at their people, they are not stealthy in the slightest.
> 
> But if you just have a big mass of zombies coming at you....speed is your friend. Kill and move, kill and move.... you drill some people on that maneuver until it becomes second nature and no zombie is going to catch them. We also have to remember that the corpses you leave behind are your friends, as now the remaining zombies have to shuffle through this line of bodies, that will slow them, trip them, and further prevent them from engaging you too closely.



When your enemies are effectively infinite, space isn’t really a luxury you will have for long. Even if you never get backed up against a wall, eventually you're going to get flanked.

Spears are a terrible option, because they can only attack one zombie at a time. Napalm, on the other hand, will actually remove the zombie from existence. It’s a much better choice. Until the burning zombies close, that is. Which they will, because: see above.


----------



## Ryujin

Except that the corpses that you leave behind aren't your friends. They're effectively converts to the enemy cause. And the problem with relying on movement as your final line of defence is that something inevitably goes wrong. Accordion Effect means that you lose whole lines, who can't get away in time. As I said previously the sheer mass of bodies means you can't take them all down, before at least some are in hand-to-hand range. When the enemy doesn't care about losing "troops" and has sufficient numbers, attrition wins.


----------



## Mirtek

I never watched Walking Dead. Only saw a few scenes occasionally when walking in on my brother watching an episode.

What I take from what little I saw is that the zombies are very much treated as nuisance.

I remember one scene with a huge horde. Must have been walking toward an encampment or something, but there were 3-4 people obviously tasked with changing their course. They did this by slowly driving a pickup in front of the horde and leading them on by playing music (?) or maybe just generally being noisy. They were leading the horde along a road leading through a forest and some zombies started to walk off. So two guys jumped from the pickup, walked next to the horde and just graped any zombie that started to veer off by the shoulders, turned him around and gave it a shove in the right direction. That was a horde hundreds strong and the two humans didn't seem to give a ####

Another scene I remember were a small group of survivors walking along a railway or road and coming upon a dozen or so zombies. They basically just yawned and slaughtered them with bats and knives, etc. Looked almost like a comic relief scene really. There was one survivor who just kept a smaller zombie away with a stiff arm to the forehead while the zombie uselessly flailed his shorter arms trying to reach the larger human. After watching it for a few seconds he then just stabed a knife into the zombies brain


----------



## Ryujin

Mirtek said:


> I never watched Walking Dead. Only saw a few scenes occasionally when walking in on my brother watching an episode.
> 
> What I take from what little I saw is that the zombies are very much treated as nuisance.
> 
> I remember one scene with a huge horde. Must have been walking toward an encampment or something, but there were 3-4 people obviously tasked with changing their course. They did this by slowly driving a pickup in front of the horde and leading them on by playing music (?) or maybe just generally being noisy. They were leading the horde along a road leading through a forest and some zombies started to walk off. So two guys jumped from the pickup, walked next to the horde and just graped any zombie that started to veer off by the shoulders, turned him around and gave it a shove in the right direction. That was a horde hundreds strong and the two humans didn't seem to give a ####
> 
> Another scene I remember were a small group of survivors walking along a railway or road and coming upon a dozen or so zombies. They basically just yawned and slaughtered them with bats and knives, etc. Looked almost like a comic relief scene really. There was one survivor who just kept a smaller zombie away with a stiff arm to the forehead while the zombie uselessly flailed his shorter arms trying to reach the larger human. After watching it for a few seconds he then just stabed a knife into the zombies brain



In zombie worlds I tend to think of the zombies like inclement weather. You've got anything from a gentle rain, to hurricanes and tornadoes. 

When it comes to how dangerous individual zombies are, in TWD, there's a serious lack of continuity. Sometimes they can't muster the energy to get through a curtain, then at other times they literally tear a person in half. Ignore people one minute and let themselves be "guided", then another minute they turn and swarm for no apparent reason.


----------



## trappedslider

Feels  like zombie talk needs it's own thread

Edit: in the comics fury had planned to nuke NYC but then quicksilver was  bitten.


----------



## embee

Ryujin said:


> TOS episode "The Trouble With Tribbles" was all about invasive species. Not quite plague blankets, but in the running.



What if a redshirt coughs? The microbes that could potentially be introduced to alien planets is too terrifying to imagine.


----------



## Ryujin

embee said:


> What if a redshirt coughs? The microbes that could potentially be introduced to alien planets is too terrifying to imagine.



By Star Fleet law red shirts can only _inhale_ dangerous microbes.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## embee

trappedslider said:


> View attachment 143678



Baskin-Robbins always finds out.

In every universe.


----------



## trappedslider

embee said:


> Baskin-Robbins always finds out.
> 
> In every universe.



Baskin-Robbins don't play


----------



## Tonguez

Well that ended with yet another poignant tribute to Chadwick Boseman

Heroes are never really gone...


----------



## trappedslider

Nicely done and once again Andy Serkis just goes to town, I kind of want to see a day in the life of ulysses klaue.


----------



## MarkB

I liked it. The initial premise was plausible, and everything else played out logically according to the characters' personalities and capabilities.


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> I liked it. The initial premise was plausible, and everything else played out logically according to the characters' personalities and capabilities.



With one exception



Spoiler



America gets its hands on vibranium and makes slow land tanks when it could make invincible bombers.... come on!


----------



## Janx

Except for the first two, all these episodes are dark and sad.

It did end on a more hopeful note this time, Shuri probably CAN save the day.


----------



## embee

Man... Tony Stark just can't catch a break anywhere other than Earth-199999.


----------



## embee

Stalker0 said:


> With one exception
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> America gets its hands on vibranium and makes slow land tanks when it could make invincible bombers.... come on!



Strategy is never the strong suit of anyone in the MCU Multiverse.

You know what would have been scarier than Thanos and his giant double-sided blade? 

Thanos with any ranged weapon.


----------



## Umbran

embee said:


> You know what would have been scarier than Thanos and his giant double-sided blade?
> 
> Thanos with any ranged weapon.




Thanos with a ranged weapon is only as scary as the ranged weapon - his power becomes dependent on the power of the device.  Give him a straw and a wad of spit-soked paper, he's not terrifying.  Give him a Smith and Wesson, and he's only as terrifying as any other guy with a pistol.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> This.
> 
> Hell if your dealing with slow zombies, all you need is:
> 
> Two lines of spearman
> A few "spotters" whose job it is to pull any of their buddies out of the fire that get tripped up, or just in case of any shenanigan's. They are also watching for zombies in unexpected places.
> A few supply people, who ensure their spearman always have spears. Obviously some will get lost or broken as the fight goes on.
> First line stabs the zombies and steps back. Second line stabs the zombies and steps back.




Doesn't work.  You must move _slightly slower_ than the zombies to do this maneuver.  If you do that, then zombies flow _around the sides_ of your line and envelop you.  For this to function, you need a _fixed width channel_ down which all the zombies funnel.  And then you have to worry about zombies coming over the top of their own line, or just overbearing with pressure, because they don't stop just because the zombie in front of them isn't moving.

And, if at any time any member of your line _fails_ to kill their zombie before everyone else needs to step back, the line collapses.  Your "spotter" requires room to get in and out, and that room will not be afforded - sombies will pack choulder to shoulder - if your forces are nto similarly packed, then zombies get in between your men, and your line is done.  No battle plan dependent on _perfect_ execution is viable.


----------



## Umbran

I have to admit, I found the most recent episode... boring.

This was just a change in plotline.  It did not explore areas of character we had not already seen, asked no fundamentally different ethical questions not seen in the original.  Overall, this wasn't a particularly constructive or interesting use of the format.


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> I have to admit, I found the most recent episode... boring.
> 
> This was just a change in plotline.  It did not explore areas of character we had not already seen, asked no fundamentally different ethical questions not seen in the original.  Overall, this wasn't a particularly constructive or interesting use of the format.



Now a second half with Shuri, Happy and Pepper could have explored those chars more, but as is, this was What If Killmonger Won?

In which we see the villain, as is the trope, did not change.

As his relationship with Tony grew, I would have hoped he might have seen a different path.  He was annoyed Tony didn't see him as a Black man, but ignored that Tony saw him as an equal. He didn't really pause before sinking that spear in.

What If Killmonger got Tony to actively support Black Lives Matter. What kind of crazy over-blown solution would they have gotten to? Coptrons patrolling streets, evenly dispatching justice in increasingly disturbing ways as voiced by James Spader.

That's probably the lack in the episode.  BP went there.  We all knew why Eric was angry and though we didn't like his plan, he had a point.  That was all skipped here, and in the end, all we saw was a successful powergrab and vindictive destructiveness instead.


----------



## Rune

Janx said:


> Now a second half with Shuri, Happy and Pepper could have explored those chars more, but as is, this was What If Killmonger Won?
> 
> In which we see the villain, as is the trope, did not change.
> 
> As his relationship with Tony grew, I would have hoped he might have seen a different path.  He was annoyed Tony didn't see him as a Black man, but ignored that Tony saw him as an equal. He didn't really pause before sinking that spear in.
> 
> What If Killmonger got Tony to actively support Black Lives Matter. What kind of crazy over-blown solution would they have gotten to? Coptrons patrolling streets, evenly dispatching justice in increasingly disturbing ways as voiced by James Spader.
> 
> That's probably the lack in the episode.  BP went there.  We all knew why Eric was angry and though we didn't like his plan, he had a point.  That was all skipped here, and in the end, all we saw was a successful powergrab and vindictive destructiveness instead.



That’s not all we saw, though. We also saw the rise of a charismatic who infiltrates and dominates by swaying hearts and minds.* 

We didn’t see nearly as much of that in the movie.



* And just in time for Dune to hit theaters. What a coincidence!


----------



## embee

Umbran said:


> Thanos with a ranged weapon is only as scary as the ranged weapon - his power becomes dependent on the power of the device.  Give him a straw and a wad of spit-soked paper, he's not terrifying.  Give him a Smith and Wesson, and he's only as terrifying as any other guy with a pistol.



I don't know about you, but I find a mad titan shooting perfectly balanced spitballs at me is fairly terrifying. 

And, Thanos shooting a Smith & Wesson is scary because, after he empties the magazine, he will throw the pistol in a perfectly balanced manner.


----------



## Rune

embee said:


> I don't know about you, but I find a mad titan shooting perfectly balanced spitballs at me is fairly terrifying.
> 
> And, Thanos shooting a Smith & Wesson is scary because, after he empties the magazine, he will throw the pistol in a perfectly balanced manner.



Now that you mention it, it’s kind of weird he didn’t commission _two_ infinity gauntlets. For symmetry.


----------



## Ryujin

Rune said:


> Now that you mention it, it’s kind of weird he didn’t commission _two_ infinity gauntlets. For symmetry.



He did. He just eliminated the second one in order to save resources.


----------



## Umbran

embee said:


> I don't know about you, but I find a mad titan shooting perfectly balanced spitballs at me is fairly terrifying.




It is still wet paper, with less structural integrity than your skin.



embee said:


> And, Thanos shooting a Smith & Wesson is scary because, after he empties the magazine, he will throw the pistol in a perfectly balanced manner.




Balance is in the item, not in the throw.  He cannot make a pitol balanced by throwing it, even if finesse was his strong suit, which it doesn't seem to have been.


----------



## Umbran

Rune said:


> That’s not all we saw, though. We also saw the rise of a charismatic who infiltrates and dominates by swaying hearts and minds.*




He wasn't _that_ charismatic.  He was able to play on the grief of older folks who just lost their son.  That's basic grift work, nothing advanced.


----------



## Ryujin

Umbran said:


> He wasn't _that_ charismatic.  He was able to play on the grief of older folks who just lost their son.  That's basic grift work, nothing advanced.



Yes, came off as more of an opportunist to me. That particular "grift" is frequently used by absolute strangers, on the elderly.


----------



## Rune

Umbran said:


> He wasn't _that_ charismatic.  He was able to play on the grief of older folks who just lost their son.  That's basic grift work, nothing advanced.



Which is why I called him _*a*_ charismatic (noun). A demagogue. A Machiavellian. Or, as you say, a grifter.

(Noting that his grift is not just on the king and queen, but all Wakandans. Also, Tony, Rhodes, and Ross.)


----------



## Blue

trappedslider said:


> Nicely done and once again Andy Serkis just goes to town, I kind of want to see a day in the life of ulysses klaue.



It's pretty anti-music.  After the Black Panther movie, mostly what he's doing is de-composing.


----------



## Dire Bare

Stalker0 said:


> With one exception
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> America gets its hands on vibranium and makes slow land tanks when it could make invincible bombers.... come on!



The exception for me was America going to war with a third-world country over the assassination of a corporate CEO. Despite Wakanda certainly denying assassinating Stark, and no proof other than a Wakandan spear, which are known to be found on the black market.


----------



## trappedslider

Dire Bare said:


> The exception for me was America going to war with a third-world country over the assassination of a corporate CEO. Despite Wakanda certainly denying assassinating Stark, and no proof other than a Wakandan spear, which are known to be found on the black market.



Colonel Rhodes' murder was set up to look like he was killed by T'challa/Wakadans during the meet with klaue. So, not just Tony's murder.


----------



## trappedslider

Blue said:


> It's pretty anti-music.  After the Black Panther movie, mostly what he's doing is de-composing.



Huh?


----------



## Umbran

Rune said:


> (Noting that his grift is not just on the king and queen, but all Wakandans. Also, Tony, Rhodes, and Ross.)




He doesn't really grift Ross or Rhodes, in terms of using personal charisma.  Ross likes his record and effectiveness.  Rhodes is merely _assigned_ to work with him, and expects fellow officers to not betray him.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Dire Bare

trappedslider said:


> Colonel Rhodes' murder was set up to look like he was killed by T'challa/Wakadans during the meet with klaue. So, not just Tony's murder.




True . . . but it still strains credulity for me that America would go to war over two murders, one military on an off-the-books mission, the other a civilian contractor, even with strong evidence of Wakandan guilt.


----------



## Blue

trappedslider said:


> Huh?



Klaue is dead.  So he's decomposing.

Old joke, I guess I didn't tell it well.


----------



## billd91

Dire Bare said:


> True . . . but it still strains credulity for me that America would go to war over two murders, one military on an off-the-books mission, the other a civilian contractor, even with strong evidence of Wakandan guilt.



Not just *a* military contractor, *the *most significant one ever. Plus, there's the idea that there'd be vibranium as war booty. It's not like we haven't gone to war or destabilized regimes for the potential economic benefits before.


----------



## Tonguez

billd91 said:


> Not just *a* military contractor, *the *most significant one ever. Plus, there's the idea that there'd be vibranium as war booty. It's not like we haven't gone to war or destabilized regimes for the potential economic benefits before.



yeah, I was going to say this too,  there's nothing incredulous about the idea of the US going to war with 3rd world nations on very little evidence for economic gain


----------



## Ryujin

Not sure where the comments about Wakanda being a Third World nation are coming from. Is that based solely on the public face they were projecting to the world at large? Because they were _far_ from a Third World nation.


----------



## trappedslider

Ryujin said:


> Not sure where the comments about Wakanda being a Third World nation are coming from. Is that based solely on the public face they were projecting to the world at large? Because they were _far_ from a Third World nation.



Indeed before they revealed themselves, that is the face they showed. One of the bonus features on The Black Panther home release is a before tourism video showing what one would think of as Thrid world.


----------



## trappedslider

Also, Stark was killed in the US, which also adds to the fuel. I'd think foreign operatives killing your citizens on your own soil would upset you.


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> yeah, I was going to say this too,  there's nothing incredulous about the idea of the US going to war with 3rd world nations on very little evidence for economic gain




This would not be going to war with a 3rd world nation, because "world" in this context is in terms of socioeconomic development, and I am sure Wakanda would qualify as 1st world... if not 0th World).

However, we should note that nobody knows the real Wakanda exists at the time this takes place.  There's a visible front of a few farmers for appearances, but the real nation of Wakanda, inside the shield, is secret from the world at large.  Moreover, no living US troops were involved.  People who are not known to exist will find it hard to lodge a protest when the US goes, "What city?  What troops?  Who are you people?!?"


----------



## Dire Bare

Ryujin said:


> Not sure where the comments about Wakanda being a Third World nation are coming from. Is that based solely on the public face they were projecting to the world at large? Because they were _far_ from a Third World nation.



There are rumors that Wakanda is more than it seems, but the Wakandans work hard to give the world the impression they are a small, third-world, developing nation. Of course, the truth is much different, but the US doesn't know that (yet).


----------



## Dire Bare

Tonguez said:


> yeah, I was going to say this too,  there's nothing incredulous about the idea of the US going to war with 3rd world nations on very little evidence for economic gain



I might have to watch the episode again, but . . . did they mention, "Hey, this is a great excuse to invade Wakanda for all that vibranium!"? The only motivation I picked up on for the invasion was Rhodes and Stark's murders.


----------



## Tonguez

Dire Bare said:


> I might have to watch the episode again, but . . . did they mention, "Hey, this is a great excuse to invade Wakanda for all that vibranium!"? The only motivation I picked up on for the invasion was Rhodes and Stark's murders.



Not in the episode, but Wakanda having a huge load of Vibranium but not being willing to sell it openly is something we know from the movies (Caps Shield being the only significant quantity of the stuff outside Wakanda until Klaw stole his load).


----------



## Ryujin

Dire Bare said:


> There are rumors that Wakanda is more than it seems, but the Wakandans work hard to give the world the impression they are a small, third-world, developing nation. Of course, the truth is much different, but the US doesn't know that (yet).



I don't know that the US military could have been convinced to send in their newest high tech toys, if they hadn't been convinced of the need. Even as a test it would have been a waste.


----------



## Tonguez

Ryujin said:


> I don't know that the US military could have been convinced to send in their newest high tech toys, if they hadn't been convinced of the need. Even as a test it would have been a waste.



Shock and Awe? If Wakanda was the backwater Ross expected then the robots would get an easy walk-in, however since the tech was still branded with the Stark logo, he could also rely on plausible deniability if it went wrong.

(Yeah thats probably where the suspension of disbelief starts to stretch)


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I have enjoyed all the episodes so far, but I am starting to feel the same problem I have had with the comic book series of the same name, and that is burn out from the whole "how many ways can we kill off all the heroes, while not affecting the main universe." And this is just from 3 episodes in a row doing this.


----------



## Thomas Shey

The third and on eps have been on the dark side; now I get that's a lean that the comic of the same title had (because exploring how things go to hell without having that wreck the continuity is one of the advantages there) but perhaps its been a few too many in a row.


----------



## RangerWickett

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I have enjoyed all the episodes so far, but I am starting to feel the same problem I have had with the comic book series of the same name, and that is burn out from the whole "how many ways can we kill off all the heroes, while not affecting the main universe." And this is just from 3 episodes in a row doing this.



The problem I'm seeing with a few of them is that the point of any story is to have a character undergo a change so at the end of the story they are different than the beginning, and the point of a good what-if story is to show how different circumstances could have led to them having a _different_ change.

Peggy becoming a super soldier kinda changed her, but she had the exact same arc as Steve Rogers. She didn't put much of her own spin on the story of beating Hydra. The story didn't lead to a meaningfully different outcome.

T'Challa as Starlord was great and comical. It made no sense logically, but I enjoyed it. I will not complain about it.

The Nick Fury vs Hank Pym story was fairly interesting in shuffling the pieces around, and we _did_ get Loki winning.

The Doctor Strange story showed a different side of Strange, and the outcome was fun in a Twilight-Zone-y way. But I felt the actual descent into darkness wasn't earned with any actual story beats. Also, I just personally am pretty picky about time travel stories. I mean, c'mon, you can do illusions and time travel. It's not hard to naughty word your way out of a fixed point in time by tricking your past self. But I digress.

The Zombies storyline focused on . . . a variety of characters, and none of them really had an arc. Stuff happened, but that's all it came to.

And Killmonger ended up in almost the exact same place he did in Black Panther, except he wins. But he as a person isn't any different. (And it's dumb for the US to attack Wakanda with robots, and for Wakanda to fight back in melee. People! Use missiles!)

So of these six, #1 and 6 basically didn't change how the story turned out. #3 and 5 had too many characters, so the arcs weren't compelling, even if the mystery or spectacle was neat. #2 was a comedy, and actually _was_ interesting because it gave T'Challa an arc to go back to his people. And #4 showed us a character's darkest side, but I don't think his slip into darkness was really earned.

These episodes mostly don't give us a good character arc. They give us spectacle. And that's missing the point.


----------



## MarkB

Thomas Shey said:


> The third and on eps have been on the dark side; now I get that's a lean that the comic of the same title had (because exploring how things go to hell without having that wreck the continuity is one of the advantages there) but perhaps its been a few too many in a row.



Also, the "but what if they didn't win and things went to hell?" concept feels pretty much played-out after Infinity War / Endgame. We've seen how that goes. It's canon.


----------



## Blue

RangerWickett said:


> The problem I'm seeing with a few of them is that the point of any story is to have a character undergo a change so at the end of the story they are different than the beginning, and the point of a good what-if story is to show how different circumstances could have led to them having a _different_ change.



I disagree that a _character_ is the only thing to change for a story.  Procedural dramas (like police procedurals or crime procedurals) can forgo any character development, and many episodic TV shows also can tell a story in an episode without character change.  I think in all of the What If...? stories the state of the world at the end was significantly different then in the core MCU Earth-199999.

For example, while Killmonger was the same person, he was in far from the same place.  He was accepted as Black Panther, had united power of Wakanda firmly behind them, still led by T'Chaka, with Wakanda's secret as high-tech out and Wakanda ready to move outside it's borders.  Iron Man never existed, which has huge ripple effects both directly (no War Machine) and also on the Avenger's Initiative.  That world is in a significantly different place than Earth-199999.  Could end up better (say Wakanda taking over and then unifying the Earth in benevolent rule) or worse, but it is far from the same.


----------



## Rune

Blue said:


> I disagree that a _character_ is the only thing to change for a story.  Procedural dramas (like police procedurals or crime procedurals) can forgo any character development, and many episodic TV shows also can tell a story in an episode without character change.



Movies too. maybe not many movies, because character arcs have become kind of a cliché, but two very successful ones (in every sense) that come to mind are _Back to the Future_ and _Ghostbusters_. 

The only character development in the former is that Doc is willing to read Marty’s note. And in the latter? I dunno, maybe Ray will say “yes” in the future if someone asks if he’s a god?


----------



## Maxperson

Blue said:


> Klaue is dead.  So he's decomposing.
> 
> Old joke, I guess I didn't tell it well.



It was pretty rotten.


----------



## Tonguez

..THOR PARTY 

well a bit of frat boy comedy after all the dark and dour What if 's was quite cathartic, kinda surprised that Natalie Portman came back for it. Darcy and Howard make a nice couple ...
and I hope the end scene gets a pay off somewhere


----------



## Rabulias

Tonguez said:


> kinda surprised that Natalie Portman came back for it.



Well, she will be in the next Thor movie, _Thor: Love and Thunder_, directed by Taika Watiti (who was also briefly in this episode), so it looks like she is OK working with Marvel again.


----------



## Stalker0

Tonguez said:


> ..THOR PARTY
> 
> well a bit of frat boy comedy after all the dark and dour What if 's was quite cathartic, kinda surprised that Natalie Portman came back for it. Darcy and Howard make a nice couple ...
> and I hope the end scene gets a pay off somewhere



Yeah this one was a good bit of fun and laughs, I liked it!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Tonguez said:


> and I hope the end scene gets a pay off somewhere




I can't remember now what has been officially teased and what is just spoiler info, so: 



Spoiler



the ending is a tie-in into episode 9, as are some of the other stills and clips that have leaked or been teased, like the return of Captain Britain.


----------



## Janx

Well that was silly.

I wonder if the point of deviation wasn't Party Thor but actually Loki.  By him not being adopted/abandoned, Thor didn't have a kid brother to contend with

Also, this universe itself seems to be more partyverse than others.


----------



## Rune

Janx said:


> Well that was silly.
> 
> I wonder if the point of deviation wasn't Party Thor but actually Loki.  By him not being adopted/abandoned, Thor didn't have a kid brother to contend with
> 
> Also, this universe itself seems to be more partyverse than others.



Pretty sure that’s _exactly_ what the Watcher called out as the point of deviation.


----------



## embee

Because my reflexes and freeze frame abilities stink on ice...



Spoiler: ENDING SPOILER - ONLY CLICK AFTER YOU'VE WATCHED EP7



Having trouble with my freeze-framing but what stones did Ultron have at the end? Obviously, he had the Mind Stone, what with it being his body. And I caught the Space Stone and Time Stone. But unless I miscounted, he only had five Stones, not all six.


----------



## Janx

Rune said:


> Pretty sure that’s _exactly_ what the Watcher called out as the point of deviation.



yeah, I didn't hear him this time. distracted watching...


----------



## Stalker0

Janx said:


> Also, this universe itself seems to be more partyverse than others.



You could argue that the peace between the ice giants and Asgard set off a chain reaction. Peace instead of war became a more galactic default, which over thousands of years had a domino effect on the various major powers


----------



## Tonguez

Stalker0 said:


> You could argue that the peace between the ice giants and Asgard set off a chain reaction. Peace instead of war became a more galactic default, which over thousands of years had a domino effect on the various major powers



they're big on the space bro's but I didnt see any dwarves or elfs at the party (although Skurge is a bro)- so what happened to the Nine Realms?

and yes Odin returning the baby to Loki seems to have been a major peace making. The baby had been left in Laufeys temple and in the original Laufey had thought that Odin killed him. In What If.. Odin didnt kill or take the baby, he actually made the effort to return the baby to his enemy -  a merciful action that caused a much happier, peaceful and celebratory universe where everyone can come together and party.


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## Stalker0

Random thought I saw on another forum. It’s actually pretty weird that in a universe where major galactic powers are operating very differently, thst the Kree operated in enough of the same manner to even create Captain Marvel.

even just a slight alteration in their plans would have removed carol from the accident that created her


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## Davies

Stalker0 said:


> Random thought I saw on another forum. It’s actually pretty weird that in a universe where major galactic powers are operating very differently, thst the Kree operated in enough of the same manner to even create Captain Marvel.



Easily answered: as the era of good feelings began, they doubled down on being jerks.


----------



## MarkB

Well, that was different. Actual stakes and drama.


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## Older Beholder

Now that’s what you call breaking the 4th wall.


----------



## Tonguez

wow, so Vision could have stopped the entire Infinity War ... and I do love Captain Marvels 80s references


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## trappedslider

Ultron called The Watcher out on his creepy behavior lol


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## billd91

trappedslider said:


> Ultron called The Watcher out on his creepy behavior lol


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## Rune

Tonguez said:


> wow, so Vision could have stopped the entire Infinity War ... and I do love Captain Marvels 80s references



I liked how she didn’t know there were Terminator sequels because she was off-world at the time.


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## fba827

I know show runners have a tendency to want to keep bringing certain characters (or actors back) but man, I would have enjoyed this more as pure anthology
Anyway just a personal taste thing


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## MarkB

I'm guessing next episode will be an Ultimate Variant Team Up of the characters we've seen so far.


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## Tonguez

MarkB said:


> I'm guessing next episode will be an Ultimate Variant Team Up of the characters we've seen so far.



Pretty much, the team ups in the trailers And the Watcher-Dr Strange interaction seems a good set up.
On reflection that scene in the Dr Strange episode where he detects the Watchers presence was nice foreshadowing


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## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> Well, that was different. Actual stakes and drama.



Hehe and basically the plot of independence day.

Alright guys, we are facing a technology and power so far beyond our own we have no way to stop it.

I know....lets throw at them a computer virus on an old laptop that should do it.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan

I'm a bit confused as to why UltraVision's Infinity Stones worked in the other universes, while the Infinity Stones in Loki were only useful as paperweights, but otherwise I liked the episode and am excited for next week's episode.


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## Tonguez

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I'm a bit confused as to why UltraVision's Infinity Stones worked in the other universes, while the Infinity Stones in Loki were only useful as paperweights, but otherwise I liked the episode and am excited for next week's episode.



Rule of cool

or maybe the power didnt come from the Infinity Stones but from the Hyper-Evolved UltronVision himself.
Like variant Dr Strange he had absorb so much cosmic power that he had evolved to become something else.

or maybe its just continuity error …


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## Echohawk

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I'm a bit confused as to why UltraVision's Infinity Stones worked in the other universes, while the Infinity Stones in Loki were only useful as paperweights, but otherwise I liked the episode and am excited for next week's episode.



Do we know for sure they don't work in other universes, or just that they don't work in the TVA?

Of course, even if it's just the latter, then that just makes the question: why do they still work in wherever it is between universes that the Watcher lives, if they don't work in the TVA, which is presumably also between universes?


----------



## Ryujin

Stalker0 said:


> Hehe and basically the plot of independence day.
> 
> Alright guys, we are facing a technology and power so far beyond our own we have no way to stop it.
> 
> I know....lets throw at them a computer virus on an old laptop that should do it.



It would have taken one throw-away line to make that whole thing somewhat plausible; "The modern computer revolution is the result of reverse engineering equipment we found at Roswell."


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## trappedslider

nvm


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## Rune

Stalker0 said:


> Hehe and basically the plot of independence day.
> 
> Alright guys, we are facing a technology and power so far beyond our own we have no way to stop it.
> 
> I know....lets throw at them a computer virus on an old laptop that should do it.



The major difference being that in this episode, _it didn’t work_.


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## MarkB

Rune said:


> The major difference being that in this episode, _it didn’t work_.



Yet. And not because it was flawed in principle.


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## Stalker0

Rune said:


> The major difference being that in this episode, _it didn’t work_.



Well that was because the boss is literally in another universe, not that a computer program written on 1960s databanks couldn’t hack the most sophisticated AI in the multiverse

but hey it’s a comic boon plot, we haven’t even gotten our toes into the pond of how crazy their plots can get


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## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> Hehe and basically the plot of independence day.
> 
> Alright guys, we are facing a technology and power so far beyond our own we have no way to stop it.
> 
> I know....lets throw at them a computer virus on an old laptop that should do it.



Which itself was lifted from _War of the Worlds_.


----------



## Ryujin

Paul Farquhar said:


> Which itself was lifted from _War of the Worlds_.



Though an actual virus is far easier to believe than a computer virus.


----------



## MarkB

Ryujin said:


> Though an actual virus is far easier to believe than a computer virus.



Not really. Incompatibility between completely independently-evolved lifeforms is at least as insurmountable as incompatibility between computer systems.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

MarkB said:


> Not really. Incompatibility between completely independently-evolved lifeforms is at least as insurmountable as incompatibility between computer systems.



Yeah. If an alien lifeform didn't have DNA or RNA, which is highly likely if we ever encounter any alien lifeforms, we'd have no way to infect them with our viruses. They just plain would not work.


----------



## Stalker0

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Yeah. If an alien lifeform didn't have DNA or RNA, which is highly likely if we ever encounter any alien lifeforms, we'd have no way to infect them with our viruses. They just plain would not work.



Probably more likely in that context would be some kind of allergic reaction, aka a substance in the planet that triggers a lethal allergic reaction, or the "alien equivalent". A "poison" might even be a better term than an allergen.

That's what Signs went with, which would have worked if its wasn't...you know.....water.....the most common substance on the planet (sigh).


----------



## Paul Farquhar

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Yeah. If an alien lifeform didn't have DNA or RNA, which is highly likely if we ever encounter any alien lifeforms, we'd have no way to infect them with our viruses. They just plain would not work.



You could make a case for some kind of panspermia idea, particularly with aliens from somewhere as relatively close as Mars. Say life on Earth originated from a Martian meteorite. Then Martian life might be vulnerable to ancient Martian viruses on Earth.

Of course, HG Wells has two excuses: DNA hadn't been discovered when he wrote the book; and it was written as an attack on colonialism, and a number of indigenous populations had been decimated by diseases introduced by European explorers.


----------



## Aeson

I like the stories but hate the animation. Warner Brothers does such a better job with DC animation. The old X-Men animated series was the only Marvel animation I could get into.


----------



## trappedslider

Aeson said:


> I like the stories but hate the animation. Warner Brothers does such a better job with DC animation. The old X-Men animated series was the only Marvel animation I could get into.



South Korean studio AKOM did the x-men cartoon and the only reason you could get into it was you were a kid and it was "OMG X-men" so many problems with the animation.

 As for What if? , Marvel Studios' head of visual development Ryan Meinerding helped define the series' cel-shaded animation style, which was designed to reflect the films and take inspiration from classic American illustrators. Animation for the first season is provided by Blue Spirit, Squeeze, Flying Bark Productions, and Stellar Creative Lab, with Stephan Franck as head of animation.

As for WB....you should listen if able to Bruce Timm and the others commentary on episodes of the DCAU cartoons.


----------



## Aeson

Trappedslider ruined my childhood.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Aeson

Ultron=Me
That's a shame too, because Apple TV+ has some interesting shows. Only Apple products I bought were second hand. Maybe I need to find a bay full of...privateers.


----------



## Herschel

The Lizard Wizard said:


> So, I wasn’t completely right. Today‘s episode had it’s far share of humour.




This was where the series jumped the shark for me, specifically Futurama Ant Man. The next two episodes were utter garbage. What if....Ultron Won was somewhat better, but the finale has a LOT of ground to make up for all the drek thus far.


----------



## Tonguez

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Yeah. If an alien lifeform didn't have DNA or RNA, which is highly likely if we ever encounter any alien lifeforms, we'd have no way to infect them with our viruses. They just plain would not work.



Just curious, why is it unlikely?

Given the that the same Physics applies everywhere and the prevalence of carbon in the universe isnt it likely that basic protein polymers might form in similar conditions? If the premise of intelligent alien lifeforms is accepted then why not covergent development of basic enzymes and protein synthesis?


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Tonguez said:


> Just curious, why is it unlikely?
> 
> Given the that the same Physics applies everywhere and the prevalence of carbon in the universe isnt it likely that basic protein polymers might form in similar conditions? If the premise of intelligent alien lifeforms is accepted then why not covergent development of basic enzymes and protein synthesis?



I'll answer your question with a question: Why would it be likely that in the possibly infinite universe that the one system that our planet developed to create life would also be commonly found on exoplanets? I'm not saying that it's impossible that another planet could have the same basic elemental makeup and through similar processes to the ones that happened on Earth also develop DNA/RNA-based lifeforms, but it seems very improbable. The universe can surely find ways to generate life different from how Earth did it. 

(Also, scientists think that it's likely that Silicon could be used as a backbone for supporting biological structures, instead of Carbon, like Earth uses. If alien life can use Silicon or some other element/molecule to support life, they wouldn't have DNA/RNA.)

I'm also not an expert, just an enthusiast, so take this post with a grain of salt.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

AcererakTriple6 said:


> The universe can surely find ways to generate life different from how Earth did it.



There really isn't sufficient data, with a sample size of one. Some sort of long chain molecule capable of storing and duplicating data is probably needed for anything resembling life as we know it. How many permutations of that are possible is currently unknown.


AcererakTriple6 said:


> Also, scientists think that it's likely that Silicon could be used as a backbone for supporting biological structures



Used to think. Long chain silicon molecules lack the stability of carbon molecules, and rapidly fall apart.

Scientist here.


----------



## Tonguez

Okay for a finale the What If... Team Up was kinda disappointing, too much comedy and not enough 'wow'

the series had a strong start but couldnt maintain the momentum


----------



## Stalker0

Tonguez said:


> Just curious, why is it unlikely?
> 
> Given the that the same Physics applies everywhere and the prevalence of carbon in the universe isnt it likely that basic protein polymers might form in similar conditions? If the premise of intelligent alien lifeforms is accepted then why not covergent development of basic enzymes and protein synthesis?



The idea that another life form codes their genetic blueprint in long chained molecules is probably common.

the idea that they would use DNA instead of many other compounds, and that the molecules used AGTC instead of a thousand other compounds is MUCH less likely. There is also chirality, life on earth is left handed in its chemistry (in laymen’s terms, the arrangement of our organic molecules is set in a specific way. Chemically it can follow another way, but life specifically sets them in a “left-handed” fashion).

this seems to have been a product of our early creation, there is no physical requiement for it (aka a right handed world was equally likely at the beginning).

so 50/50 a life form based on organic chemistry is right handed, meaning all of our organic molecules are incompatible. They could not eat any of our food for example, there bodies wouldn’t be able to process it


----------



## MarkB

Just FYI, today's episode has a mid-credits scene.


----------



## embee

I see that they took a page from Batman v Superman...


----------



## embee

trappedslider said:


> View attachment 144786



A) Of course Ultron would use Android. What with him being a synthezoid and all.

B) I don't have AppleTV. I do have Plex. And access to a Plex server run by a guy with AppleTV.


----------



## trappedslider

Aeson said:


> Ultron=Me
> That's a shame too, because Apple TV+ has some interesting shows. Only Apple products I bought were second hand. Maybe I need to find a bay full of...privateers.






embee said:


> A) Of course Ultron would use Android. What with him being a synthezoid and all.
> 
> B) I don't have AppleTV. I do have Plex. And access to a Plex server run by a guy with AppleTV.



It's the Watcher saying he uses everything but apple+...it's a take on his Name The WATCHER


----------



## trappedslider

The last two episodes show that Marvle either can't or is unable or unwilling to tell stand-alone stories.


----------



## Stalker0

So the teamup at the end kind of felt like Justice league..... throw a bunch of people who barely know each other into the drink and just have a big action piece, but with no heart. At the end of the day this has probably been one of my least favorite marvel properties, it had a few bright spots but again just no substance. It just felt empty all said and done.

Jeez Dr Strange is OP....but I chalk that up to his extra dimensional powers. We could argue that his powers actually come from outside the multiverse and so are a counter to the infinity stones. That said, for all the time Ultron has had with the stones and his supposed great intellect, he really doesn't know how to use them.

Also there goes the Loki theory that infinity stones don't work in other universes, that must have been a TVA special.

My money is that they are going to keep going with a Captain Carter animated series. They definitely highlighted her at the end and I think she is charismatic enough that a version with her could be a lot of fun.


----------



## MarkB

Yeah, the Captain Carter one was interesting because of the switched role, and they successfully sold her as filling that role well. T'Challa as Starlord just didn't convince in the same way - he's too perfect by the time we see him (people fanboying over him on sight, Thanos being persuaded not to Thanos) unlike the version we see in Black Panther, who's still a hero but has some rough edges to work out.

And I'd have liked to see more such switched-around roles, explore some very different takes on the MCU extended cast. But we didn't really get much more of that. Episode 3 was interesting as a murder-mystery, and felt like a very faithful extrapolation of how events could play out differently, but it didn't really introduce anything new. Episode 4 was just depressing, and didn't tell us anything we didn't already know about Strange, plus its approach to closed-loop time paradoxes felt unimaginative. Episode 5... I've never cared for zombies as a fictional trope, and this did nothing to dissuade me of that.

Episode 6 gives us Killmonger... basically being Killmonger, but with better sponsorship, and everyone else being just a little too dense. Episode 7 was frequently funny, but never quite as funny as it thought it was, and utterly lightweight.

And then the concluding episodes? Ultron is impressively (if inconsistently) powerful, but his screen presence is rather lacking, and yeah, as @Stalker0 says, he's rubbish at Infinity Stones. Why is he touring around blowing up individual planets when he could just snap his fingers and wipe out all sentient life in the universe? And then we bring the whole team together for an empty series of beat-'em-up battles against someone who should be able to basically just command reality on a whim. And oh no, the Watcher breaks his sacred vow, what terrible consequences could result from such a- oh, it's over.


----------



## Tonguez

Also am I over thinking Marvel taking jabs at DC with


the Eternals trailer has a dis of Superman (Icarus “I don’t wear a cape”)
Ultron is very much like the Anti-Monitor
they call this episodes team up a Suicide Mission


----------



## Older Beholder

I liked the way they tied the series together with the double episode at the end.

It looks like the episode that get left out featured Gamora defeating Thanos. Unless it was just cut completely, I did hear that the 10th episode was pushed back to season 2? 

Overall I enjoyed the whole series, beautiful animation, great writing, looking forward to (hopefully) more seasons. 

The Dr Strange episode was probably still my favourite.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

The Lizard Wizard said:


> It looks like the episode that get left out featured Gamora defeating Thanos. Unless it was just cut completely, I did hear that the 10th episode was pushed back to season 2?




Yeah, the original leaks said episode 8 was about Tony Stark on Sakaar, the planet from Thor: Ragnarok. We did see a few seconds of that when Gamora got grabbed. Also, when the show was first announced, it was scheduled for 18 episodes, and then later we found out it would be 2 seasons of 9 episodes each, so I am guessing what we got as episode 9 was originally the first episode of season 2, meaning we would have been stuck with a cliffhanger. I am glad they instead skipped the Sakaar episode and moved the 2nd part up to season 1.


----------



## Older Beholder

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yeah, the original leaks said episode 8 was about Tony Stark on Sakaar, the planet from Thor: Ragnarok. We did see a few seconds of that when Gamora got grabbed.




That rings a bell, for some reason I thought there was talk of one episode based on 'What if the other 50% got snapped instead', so basically End Game but with all the avengers that were gone, but that could have just been someone trying to explain what the series was about, just throwing out random ideas.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> so 50/50 a life form based on organic chemistry is right handed, meaning all of our organic molecules are incompatible. They could not eat any of our food for example, there bodies wouldn’t be able to process it



The interesting thing about this is it is a somewhat testable hypothesis. If, as some have suggested, organic molecules in interstellar clouds where related to life, you would expect one "handedness" to be favoured over the other. If they are the product of chemistry, you would expect to see a 50/50 distribution. When I was last working in the field the evidence was for 50/50.


----------



## LoganRan

Rune said:


> I liked how she didn’t know there were Terminator sequels because she was off-world at the time.



If only we could all live in such a state of blissful ignorance re: Terminator sequels.


----------



## Dire Bare

trappedslider said:


> View attachment 144786



Hah!

It's one of the reasons I have a Roku attached to my TV, rather than a Chromecast or Amazon Fire. They are all walled gardens, but at least with Roku I don't have to worry about the Android/Apple split. I can have it all!


----------



## Cadence

I loved the feeling of the stand alone episodes -- they really caught the spirit of the old What If? comics.



Stalker0 said:


> Also there goes the Loki theory that infinity stones don't work in other universes, that must have been a TVA special.




How the gems worked was the part I really didn't like. 

Why would the grinder be universe dependent but not the gems?
Were there no good guys with gems in other universes that the Watcher couldn't have gone to recruit?


----------



## ART!

Cadence said:


> Were there no good guys with gems in other universes that the Watcher couldn't have gone to recruit?



That's a good idea for one or more new episodes right there!


----------



## Cadence

ART! said:


> That's a good idea for one or more new episodes right there!



Is there an alternate watcher to watch?

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"


----------



## Ryujin

Well if their job is "to watch and not interfere" then you have to figure that there's a supervisor watcher, who oversees a bunch of sectors.


----------



## MarkB

Cadence said:


> Is there an alternate watcher to watch?
> 
> "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"



That would be us.


----------



## Cadence

MarkB said:


> That would be us.




And now I almost want an episode where a bunch of people watching the What If? series go off in search of other watchers to watch...


----------



## MarkB

Cadence said:


> And now I almost want an episode where a bunch of people watching the What If? series go off in search of other watchers to watch...



Someone should do a documentary video of them watching a Youtuber's reaction video to watching the What If...? series. Then we can be the Watchers watching the Watchers watching the Watcher watching the Watcher.

And now that word has lost all meaning.


----------



## Ryujin

Cadence said:


> And now I almost want an episode where a bunch of people watching the What If? series go off in search of other watchers to watch...



Holy 4th Wall break, Batman!


----------



## Cadence

Ryujin said:


> Holy 4th Wall break, Batman!



Cross-company 4th wall breaking there!


----------

