# Euro 2004 Football discussion



## johnsemlak (Jun 2, 2004)

Kickoff is now just 10 days away, I think someone's got to start this...

So what are you country's chances in Portugual?  Which players will you be counting on to drive the team to success?

Who do you think will win?  Who will be the star players in the competition?


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 2, 2004)

I think my country, Denmark, has a pretty good chance if not winning it, which I doubt, then getting very far in the competition.

Denmarks lineup is a winger system which basically is a 4-2-2-1-1 system. A very offensive, and very entertaining system which guarentees some good matches.

Starting lineup is probably, (position) name (club): (GK) Thomas Sørensen (Aston Villa), (RB) Thomas Helveg (Inter), (CD) Martin Laursen (Milan), (CD) René Henriksen (Panathinaikos), (LB) Niclas Jensen (Dortmund), (DF) Thomas Graversen (Everton), (DF) Christian Poulsen (Schalke 04), (RW) Jesper Grønkjær (Chelsea), (LW) Martin Jørgensen (Udinese), (CF) Jon Dahl Tomasson (Milan), and (ST) Ebbe Sand (Schalke 04).

The key players are Jesper Grønkjær, Thomas Graversen, and Jon Dahl Tommason. The big IFs are whether René Henriksen and Thomas Sørensen gets their game going, if they don't, our offense will have to score a lot of goals to win.

Denmark is in group with Italy, Sweden, and Bulgaria. I expect Denmark and Sweden to advance from that group, since I my eyes they are the strongest teams in that group.

Denmark is currently ranked 13th in the world, and 8th among european countries on the current FIFA ranking.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 2, 2004)

Well, my country of residence, Russia, will probably battle it out for 3rd place in their group and I would predict that they will finish last, though i'm honestly not as familiar with the squad as i once was.

The star players right now seem ot be Dmitry Alenichev, who scored a goal in the Champions League Final for Porto, as well as Alexander Mostovoi, Alexei Smertin, and maybe Dmitry Bulykin.  Their captain Victor Onopko is getting old but his experience is vital.

In a group with Spain, Portugal, and Greece, I'd say that finishing in the top two would be a near-miracle for Russia.

Overall, I'm a bit undecided as to who I think will win.  Portugal and France were both among my favorites in the last World Cup and both crashed out in the first round.  On the other hand, I didn't think Germany would fare well at all and they made the final.  I'm naming France and Portugal as among my favorites this time but with reservations.  A lot of the key players on the France squad are really showing their age.  Portugal seems to be a bit of a wildcard team that doesn't always play to their potential, but they should do well in their home country.

AGGEMAN, you don't think that Italy will advance from their group?


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 2, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> AGGEMAM, you don't think that Italy will advance from their group?




No. Italy has a lot of good players but no _team_ IMO.

And too much depends on a single player, Totti, take him out and nothing will happen. Actually if Italy were to start without Totti at all, I believe they will fare much better.

I think they'll end 3rd in the group, and with it's history of uninspired football, Italy doesn't deserve more than that.

All in IMO, of course.


----------



## Kid Congo Powers (Jun 2, 2004)

A lot of studying made forget all about Euro 2004, thanks for reminding me, a light in the otherwise dark world   

I really have no idea of the strength of any of the countries but I'm always hoping Spain finally will get their act together and kick some...balls in the net so that they'll win the cup. 

But after being called "fjellaber" by the danish press I still bear a grudge against the danish team


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 2, 2004)

Kid Congo Powers said:
			
		

> But after being called "fjellaber" by the danish press I still bear a grudge against the danish team




Actually that is the normal nickname for norwegians here, so it's not really anything unusual. Note though that one of my flatmates is norwegian and so are about 10 of my Roskilde Festival buddies, so it's not like we dislike you or anything it's just what we normally say.  

EDIT: And oh, welcome to the boards.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 3, 2004)

I'll put in a word for the English, although I know AGGEMAM doesn't agree with me. 

We've got some extremely good players - Owen, Beckham, Gerrard, Campbell - running through the centre of the team. We've also got other good players throughout the first team - Rooney, Scholes, Cole, Lampard etc - but the real problem we've got is that the team is hard to balance.

No matter what formation we play (and it's extremely likely to be the diamond), we don't have a player to play on the left hand side. Gerrard is going to end up playing there, but it's not ideal for him. And hopefully we'll play Nicky Butt in the holding role rather than Lampard, who is more of an attacking player.

I reckon we can get out of the group stage, but after that I've got no idea. It all depends on whether Rooney sparks into life at his first big tournament, if Scholes can start scoring again, and if the fitness of the team holds up over the 90 minutes.

My preferred line-up: (position, name, club)
GK - David James - Manchester City
DL - Ashley Cole - Arsenal
DC - John Terry - Chelsea
DC - Sol Campbell - Arsenal
DR - Gary Neville - Manchester United
ML - Steven Gerrard - Liverpool
MC - Nicky Butt - Manchester United
MC - Frank Lampard - Chelsea
MR - David Beckham - Real Mardrid
FC - Wayne Rooney - Everton
FC - Michael Owen - Liverpool

However, I think Eriksson will go for Scholes over Lampard, playing Lampard in the defensive midfield role. And I think France will beat us comfortably if he does.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 3, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> No. Italy has a lot of good players but no _team_ IMO.
> 
> And too much depends on a single player, Totti, take him out and nothing will happen. Actually if Italy were to start without Totti at all, I believe they will fare much better.
> 
> ...



 Hmm, well, we'll just have to wait and see.

That will definitely be a competitive group and anything could happen.  Still, I can't remember the last time Italy failed to advance out of the group phase of a tournament (OK, a couple of clicks revealed Italy failed to advance in Euro 96).  I'd have to pick them as a team to advance this year as well.

Will definitely be interesting.  I'll be watching the matches in that group with interest.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 3, 2004)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> I'll put in a word for the English, although I know AGGEMAM doesn't agree with me.





Oh, I think England will go through from it's group too, no doubt about that.

I still can't understand why Eriksson didn't call in Shearer though, he said he was willing. And he's the most scoring english player in the premier league for the last two years in a row.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 3, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> That will definitely be a competitive group and anything could happen.  Still, I can't remember the last time Italy failed to advance out of the group phase of a tournament (OK, a couple of clicks revealed Italy failed to advance in Euro 96).  I'd have to pick them as a team to advance this year as well.




Also remember that they haven't always qualified too. Whereas Denmark has the record for qualifing to the european championships with qualifing every time since 1984, winning it in 1992.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 3, 2004)

> I still can't understand why Eriksson didn't call in Shearer though, he said he was willing. And he's the most scoring english player in the premier league for the last two years in a row.



I believe Shearer officially retired from international competition after Euro 2000.  Plus at that time some people blamed him for England's disappointing performance.

Still, I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk of bringing him back.

EDIT: Did Shearer say he was willing?


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 3, 2004)

The reason Shearer has been playing so well is that he's had the time off during international weeks to let his old and aging bones recover! 

Besides, he doesn't have enough pace for international level. Eriksson would have had to build the entire team around him (as Robson has at Newcastle) which takes a lot of time and training, something you don't have with international teams.

Shearer retired at the right time, IMHO.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 3, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I believe Shearer officially retired from international competition after Euro 2000.  Plus at that time some people blamed him for England's disappointing performance.
> 
> Still, I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk of bringing him back.
> 
> EDIT: Did Shearer say he was willing?




Me being a diehard Newcastle fan, yes, he officially has said that if called to national service again, he would answer.

At the time .. after Euro 2000 .. Shearer was in bad form struggling still to recover from a severe multible fracture too the ancle sustained in 1998 which had him out for almost 8 months and it wasn't until the 2001-2002 season he really started being on top again.

Those were difficult times for NUFC but as he's grown so has the whole team, ending in the top 5 for the past 3 years running.

EDIT: I should note that he said that he would not be playing qualifing games, as he thinks he's too old for that. But as a joker, he could have been vital to Englands success or failure at the coming cup.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 3, 2004)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> The reason Shearer has been playing so well is that he's had the time off during international weeks to let his old and aging bones recover!





Hey, I recent that. He's only 10 months older than me, mate.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 3, 2004)

Naturally as an Englishman I want England to win, even though if we did it'd probably mean playing France twice (opening group game and final). Realistically quarter final or semi final for England.

I never rule Germany out no matter how badly they seem to do getting to the finals as they have a habit of coming up with the goods when it matters. The Czech republic seem to be coming good and the Netherlands are also a good team.

Portugal and Spain are tricky to call as they're good teams, but are notoriously bad in the major championships, but both are playing in familiar weather and with a lot of home support for the Portugese.

Sweden and Denmark look to be in reasonable shape, but that group could be tight depending on how well the Italians play together.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 3, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> Hey, I recent that. He's only 10 months older than me, mate.



Yeah, but if you remember that horrible, horrible injury he had when he was out for nearly a year, and the fact that his extremely physical style of play tends to put a lot of strain on him.

Shearer works at club level because the team works. Robson set it up so everyone else does all the running and Shearer can pick up the pieces, take penalties and get on the end of crosses. At international level it wouldn't work, and he'd get booked more often too.

Not that Rooney isn't going to have to be careful this summer. Any back chat or pushing of opponents is going to get him sent off fast.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 8, 2004)

If opponents like Croatia and Switzerland are being evil they just need to keep giving Rooney needle so that he lashes out and gets sent off.

Amazed how little interest in this topic given its only 3 days to go.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2004)

I"m a bit surprised too.  Obviously, the main reason is that most users are American.  But there used to be to be active Cricket chat here quite regularly.

I'm really looking forward to the England-France match--should be one of the better group phase matches.

France seem to be the pundits' favorites and I can't argue with that, but they have some question marks.  They dominated a really weak qualification group, and their defence could be vulnerable.


----------



## Capellan (Jun 8, 2004)

Latvia all the way, baby!

(As a newly-minted Aussie, it's compulsory to support the underdog.  )

I rather hope England won't disgrace themselves, too.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 9, 2004)

Capellan said:
			
		

> Latvia all the way, baby!
> 
> (As a newly-minted Aussie, it's compulsory to support the underdog.  )
> 
> I rather hope England won't disgrace themselves, too.



 Latvia getting in was unbelievable.

And the way they did it--coming from 2 goals behind to win in Istanbul in a Home-away series against Turkey.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 10, 2004)

As D&Ders should we be supporting Switzerland as they have a player called ?Daniel Gygax?


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 10, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> As D&Ders should we be supporting Switzerland as they have a player called ?Daniel Gygax?



 Yeah, I noticed that a while back.  Wonder if he's a relation?


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 11, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Yeah, I noticed that a while back.  Wonder if he's a relation?



Gygax is a widespread last name in Switzerland (do a search for 'Gygax' & see for yourself  ), and Gary Gygax must have some Swiss ancestors.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 11, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> The star players right now seem ot be Dmitry Alenichev, who scored a goal in the Champions League Final for Porto, as well as Alexander Mostovoi, Alexei Smertin, and maybe Dmitry Bulykin.  Their captain Victor Onopko is getting old but his experience is vital.



Onopko is out of the squad due to an injury ((((((.
The defence is really crippled without him. 



> In a group with Spain, Portugal, and Greece, I'd say that finishing in the top two would be a near-miracle for Russia.



True. But I'm an optimist, so a 3:0 win over Greece and draws with Spain and Portugal will satisfy me . Advancing past the quarterfinals would be a real marvel.



> I'm naming France and Portugal as among my favorites this time but with reservations.  A lot of the key players on the France squad are really showing their age.



France has a fantastic squad and overruns almost every opponent. I think the French will be the first team in history to win two consecutive Euro championships. Portugal is also strong and has a trump card: the supporters. 
I'd also watch out for Holland, with its superb attack line, and Sweden. And, of course, you can never tell what to expect from Latvia .


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 11, 2004)

LizardWizard said:
			
		

> I'd also watch out for Holland, with its superb attack line, and Sweden.




Since the Netherlands is only playing with Nistelroy in front and him along with the other strikers from that team being hopelessly out of form for international football. These are not my words but Dick Advocat the dutch coach.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 12, 2004)

LizardWizard said:
			
		

> Onopko is out of the squad due to an injury ((((((.
> The defence is really crippled without him.



 Yes, that is true.  That's a vital blow.



> True. But I'm an optimist, so a 3:0 win over Greece and draws with Spain and Portugal will satisfy me . Advancing past the quarterfinals would be a real marvel.




Hey, be optimistic   Really, as much as I believe Spain and Portugal are favorites in that group, anything can happen.  Both countries have spotty records in tournaments, especially Portugal.  I just think the familiar weather and home fans will be a big plus, for both teams.
[/QUOTE]


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 12, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> Since the Netherlands is only playing with Nistelroy in front and him along with the other strikers from that team being hopelessly out of form for international football. These are not my words but Dick Advocat the dutch coach.



That's really weird, because wasting such an excellent striker as Makaay would be a real shame.
Nevertheless, van Nistelrooy is worth two or even three players even alone.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 12, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Really, as much as I believe Spain and Portugal are favorites in that group, anything can happen.  Both countries have spotty records in tournaments, especially Portugal.  I just think the familiar weather and home fans will be a big plus, for both teams.



Yeah, Spain and Portugal are very much like our team, because they are really good in qualifying rounds and in friendlies, but can't advance past the group stage. 
But it would be a real shame for Portugal to waste a chance of a lifetime to win the Championship.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 12, 2004)

I wonder why Zappo hasn't showed up here yet, so let me speak about Italy.

It's true that we haven't got a good team. IMHO our champions think too much of their money and too little of their fans, and they aren't people who get along very well with each other. But they are very good players, and if our coach directs them in a decent way (totally differently from what he did in Korea, that is) they have always good chances to shine.

I think our Under 21 team is much more motivated than the bigger team, and it's no wonder they already won the title. 
Honestly, I think we'll do better in Greece than in Portugal.


----------



## NewbyDM (Jun 12, 2004)

as someone from holland i can only hope one thing.... 'NO PENALTIES'

I know the dutch team is not playing well lately, but they never did at the beginning of a tournament, so nothing new .
The only thing that stopped holland in the last decade is penalties... so maybe if we avoid them....   
One other problem of the dutch team is that they don't 'die' on the field. They look most of the time like spoiled kids  
Im often jealous of other teams, that maybe don't play as well, but rather die then roll over on their backs   

Owell lets not be tooo pessimistic... HOLLAND EURO 2004 CHAMPIONS!!!


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 12, 2004)

> But it would be a real shame for Portugal to waste a chance of a lifetime to win the Championship.




Well, tehy're on their way to wasting a chance now.  Wow, Portugal played terrible.  Figo trying to do everything himself, and the whole team playing together poorly and being outhustled.

Spain-Russia 0-0, Russia playing well after a poor start, this should be good second half...


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 12, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Well, tehy're on their way to wasting a chance now.  Wow, Portugal played terrible.  Figo trying to do everything himself, and the whole team playing together poorly and being outhustled.
> 
> Spain-Russia 0-0, Russia playing well after a poor start, this should be good second half...



Yeah, Portugal's performance was abysmal. But now they're enraged and will tear us to bits, because they have no other choice.
And, alas, we start with a defeat. Chances against the Portuguese and the Greeks are VERY bleak.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 12, 2004)

Well not a great shock seeing Spain beat Russia. Tricky for Portugal now, unless Greece lose to Russia, and assuming Spain beat Greece they either need to beat both Russia and Spain or if they get 4 points they need to score well in the match they win.

Wonder what effect the home team going out in the first round would have on atmosphere. Actually not all that great as most of the other teams have lots of support down there.


----------



## Asmo (Jun 13, 2004)

This will be a most interesting group to follow..  Portugal vs. Spain could be a killer, looking forward to it!!


Asmo


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 13, 2004)

LizardWizard said:
			
		

> Yeah, Portugal's performance was abysmal. But now they're enraged and will tear us to bits, because they have no other choice.
> And, alas, we start with a defeat. Chances against the Portuguese and the Greeks are VERY bleak.



 Well, we'll have to see.

Logically, I'd expect the Portuguese to dominate that match, but I wouldn't put any money on it at this point.

Can't wait for the England-France game...


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 13, 2004)

An incredible ending for France!
The Englishmen were punished for their pride!!!


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 13, 2004)

*England - France*

Oh       90 minutes and then thrown away in injury time. And its sunday night so I can't even get drunk now to forget. Realistically a draw would probably have been a fair result as England were better in the first half with France looking better after half time.


----------



## Abdomens (Jun 13, 2004)

*England - France*



			
				MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Oh       90 minutes and then thrown away in injury time. And its sunday night so I can't even get drunk now to forget. Realistically a draw would probably have been a fair result as England were better in the first half with France looking better after half time.



Well, nothing is "fair" in soccer.
I rather liked the result. I had a bet with a friend. I said 1-2, and he said 2-0. So when it was 1-0 and the english got a penalty kick, I wasn't in a good mood. But now I can mock him for some time with that incredible ending.
At least until tomorrow, were Denmark will win 2-1 over Italy (or I hope they will).


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 14, 2004)

Abdomens said:
			
		

> At least until tomorrow, were Denmark will win 2-1 over Italy (or I hope they will).



We'll talk again tomorrow then...


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 14, 2004)

*England-France*

Wow, what an incredible ending.

As close as England came to winning, I think over the full 90' France may have just slightly deserved the win.  It seemed like once England had the lead they were satisfied with sitting on it, and seemed to just be withstanding wave after wave of French attacks, though they did mount a few dangerous counterattacks and Rooney was really dangerous.  However, The French attackers are just too good, I think, to be allowed so much possesion in the final third of the field.   

The English defence was superb for the most part, especially Sol Campbell.  Their task was just too tall.

England really must recover for their next matches; the tourney is hardly over, but a result like that can stay with the players for long time.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 14, 2004)

John,

Agreed that the most important thing for England is thinking about winning the next two matches and winning well. The real disappointment for me was how long Owen was left on given how ineffective he was, if Vassel had come on earlier it might have given a few more chances.

I was impressed by King, playing in such a big game and doing well. Henry didn't look all that good, but Zidane could really stamp his mark on this tournament.

Best of luck to Denmark this afternoon and Sweden this evening.


----------



## Abdomens (Jun 14, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Best of luck to Denmark this afternoon and Sweden this evening.



Thanks, but don't worry. [irony] It's only Italy, how good can they be? [/i]


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 14, 2004)

No wishes of luck for us? What did we do to deserve this?


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 14, 2004)

*ENGLAND! ARGH!*

Right, that's that out of the way. Seriously, I'm not going to talk about what we deserved, because I think in football you always get what you deserve - we made two horrible, horrible errors against world class players and we got punished for it. But the timing was awful. Possibly the worst end to a game I've ever seen, personally.

Now I know how Bayern Munich fans felt after Man U won the Champions League in similar fashion.

The positives are there. Lampard and Gerrard were very strong, as was the back four. Rooney was virtually unplayable, the French just couldn't handle him. The weak points were the performances of Owen and Beckham, who were both anonymous, and David James who made the easy saves look easy, and who couldn't deal with Zidane's free kick or penalty.

I think we'll win our final two games in the group and go through, but I have no idea if we'll do any better against other teams.

Looking forward to the Italy - Denmark game later, if only to see AGGEMAM's reaction.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 14, 2004)

You know, I've seen/heard a number of remarks that both Thierry Henry and Micheal Owen, both established star strikers, were ineffective in that game.  Could it be that they opposing defences simply concentrated on them?

Hmm, Denmark Italy started...going offline.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 14, 2004)

Owen, seemed to be lacking in energy or desire much more than Henry who was being heavily marked. Seeing how the French defenders were having problems with Rooney I think Ericcson should have substituted Owen for Vassel much earlier as I thought he added a lot of energy up front.


----------



## Abdomens (Jun 14, 2004)

*0 - 0*

Hmm, a draw.
Before the match, I would be glad with 0-0, but now I'm a little disapointed. :\ 
If we'd just got a goal in the first half, we would have won.

PS That referee should be banned. He had some very weird judgments to both teams, as if he just "had" to be the center of attention.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 14, 2004)

Denmark vs. Italy was a battle of goalkeepers. Both Sorensen and Buffon demonstrated outstanding skill and reaction and made fantastic saves. I think a draw is a fair result. 
Looking forward to Scandinavian derby, Denmark vs. Sweden...


----------



## Asmo (Jun 14, 2004)

Sweden crushes Bulgaria, 5-0 and as usual Henrik Larsson delivers.
Zlatan, Ljungberg and "Chippen" ruled, but as a team Sweden did a fantastic match. I don´t think that I´ve ever seen Sweden play any better than this.

Henke 4 life.

Asmo


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 14, 2004)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> Looking forward to the Italy - Denmark game later, if only to see AGGEMAM's reaction.




Considering that we were without our two most important players Graversen and Grønkjær I'm ok with a draw. Although, we did play them under the ground. Denmark did show that even without some key players they were able to outclass Italy as I expected.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 15, 2004)

LizardWizard said:
			
		

> An incredible ending for France!
> The Englishmen were punished for their pride!!!




They are finally back. After a disastrous world cup. 

Yesterday we saw the difference between a good captain (Beckam) and an amazing one (Zidane). The real sports legend don't crack under pressure.

I guess Beckam should concentrate more on the field and less on his personal image. Actually, he earns more with his image than with his talent.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 15, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> Considering that we were without our two most important players Graversen and Grønkjær I'm ok with a draw. Although, we did play them under the ground. Denmark did show that even without some key players they were able to outclass Italy as I expected.




The Italian were not outclass they always play like that. You think that you're dominating them but can't go through their defense. And all of a sudden they counterattack, score and spend the rest of the game in their zone playing their ultra tight and boring defense until you get to the 90'.

I hate watching the Italian. Law of the least effort. All the years I have been watching them I always tell myself, this time they don't have the team to make it to the second round and almost everytime they get there. And the same thing goes on for every round. Every major competition I wonder how they were able to get that far.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 15, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> The Italian were not outclass they always play like that.




Appearantly you don't watch too many games then. Italy is a ball possession team who likes to have the ball and play it around until they find an opening. A 67% ball possession in 1st half (61% overall) to the danish team speaks of a very atypical game from an Italien POW. You can rest assure that the Italien press is going to slaughter the team today.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 15, 2004)

Asmo said:
			
		

> Sweden crushes Bulgaria, 5-0 and as usual Henrik Larsson delivers.
> Zlatan, Ljungberg and "Chippen" ruled, but as a team Sweden did a fantastic match. I don´t think that I´ve ever seen Sweden play any better than this.
> 
> Henke 4 life.
> ...



 That was very impressive, I must say.  And I thought Bulgaria were playing OK until that minute where they gave up two goals.

Larsson's amazing header was the goal of the tournament so far (still early going, of course).

I thought Sweden looked real impressive when they drubbed Poland 4-0 in a friendly warm-up, but this result really signals that Sweden might be a possible tourney winner.  Of course, it's difficult to know exactly how significant this victory over Bulgaria is, but I think it should be an omnimous sign for Sweden's opponents.

Germany-Holland tonight.  Ugh, these matches finish at nearly 1:00 a.m. where I am.  I'm gonna have a tired three weeks


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 15, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> Appearantly you don't watch too many games then. Italy is a ball possession team who likes to have the ball and play it around until they find an opening. A 67% ball possession in 1st half (61% overall) to the danish team speaks of a very atypical game from an Italien POW. You can rest assure that the Italien press is going to slaughter the team today.



I can slaughter them too! They played pretty much to their worst. But the boring play is all the coach's fault, and I really wish we had replaced him after the world cup. Hopefully they'll learn something from this match. To run, for example. Soccer shouldn't be played by statues.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 15, 2004)

Got to admit my lack of good wishes for Italy was due to the boring style of play, though I've got to admit Eriksson's teams are not always too good to watch. Has Trappatoni alway's been very defensively minded in Serie A as well?

Well done Sweden, I bet you're glad Henrik Larrson changed his mind about retiring from international games.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 15, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Got to admit my lack of good wishes for Italy was due to the boring style of play, though I've got to admit Eriksson's teams are not always too good to watch. Has Trappatoni alway's been very defensively minded in Serie A as well?



Yes. Awfully. I don't think a serie A team would take him as a coach. I wish the italian federation realized that if the good italian coaches won't train the national team, it's better to hire a good foreign coach than a bad italian coach. Against Denmark he should have used Pirlo instead of Totti, and Gattuso since the beginning. Oh well, again I can only wait and hope he learned something. Thank God we have such good goalkeepers. Last time Toldo saved us against Holland, as some of you surely painfully remembers.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 15, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> Appearantly you don't watch too many games then. Italy is a ball possession team who likes to have the ball and play it around until they find an opening. A 67% ball possession in 1st half (61% overall) to the danish team speaks of a very atypical game from an Italien POW. You can rest assure that the Italien press is going to slaughter the team today.



Well from the top of my head go back and watch France vs Italy in the WC 98 or during the Euro 2000 or Italy vs Croatia in the WC2002 now Danemark vs Italy Euro 2004 even when they went in the WC final in 94 always the same boring type of game, they are completly dominated but managed to give a really hard time to their opponent. I have other example but would have to refresh my memory (I am not a Italian fan quite the opposite, but I learned to respect them).


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 15, 2004)

Darkmaster here is the thing:

Euro 2000, WC 2002, Euro 2004 = Trapattoni. 'Nuff said.

WC 1998 = Maldini. Another coach that no Serie A team wanted. See a pattern here?

If you want to see italian soccer, please, look at the Under 21 team. you wouldn't recognize it.

BTW, why England brought Rooney, who is playing wonderfullly and is barely 18, to the Euro, and we left Gilardino, who is 19 and has made more goals than any other italian this year, with the Under 21? Answer: because our coach is dumb as a brick.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 15, 2004)

Beckham was poor vs. the French, for sure. I hope he can pick himself up otherwise there is going to be talk of questioning his selection...

And no it seems both Scholes and Butt might be out of thursdays game. I think Hargreaves will get the position on the left, though I'd rather see Joe Cole there, at least for now.

Sometimes I wonder if Cole - Lampard - Gerrard - Dyer would be a better England midfield...

Looking forward to Germany vs Holland today. Should be a very exciting match.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 15, 2004)

Got to admit I was secretly pleased when I heard Scholes had picked up an knock as I don't find him a player who is good at doing for the national team what he does for his club side.

I'd like to see Cole get a chance, but I think that Ericsson will play safe and go with Hargreaves, just as long as its not Heskey as a left sided midfielder.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 15, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> Darkmaster here is the thing:
> 
> Euro 2000, WC 2002, Euro 2004 = Trapattoni. 'Nuff said.
> 
> ...



I must admit that since I live in Canada, It is hard to watch the games. We usually only have access to the big events.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 15, 2004)

Looking at todays matches unless Lithuania can do what they did against Turkey I think that the Czech republic and Netherlands will win their matches as Germany look indifferent this time round.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 15, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I thought Sweden looked real impressive when they drubbed Poland 4-0 in a friendly warm-up, but this result really signals that Sweden might be a possible tourney winner.  Of course, it's difficult to know exactly how significant this victory over Bulgaria is, but I think it should be an omnimous sign for Sweden's opponents.



Yeah, Sweden looked really impressive. If they carry on playing so well, the French will have to try really hard to keep their title



> Germany-Holland tonight.  Ugh, these matches finish at nearly 1:00 a.m. where I am.  I'm gonna have a tired three weeks



Hope to see a lot of goals tonight - the Dutch play offence-oriented football, and the German defence isn't as good as it used to be. 
The exams are over, so it's football time...


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 15, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Looking at todays matches unless Lithuania can do what they did against Turkey I think that the Czech republic and Netherlands will win their matches as Germany look indifferent this time round.



Hey, it's Latvia not Lithuania!  
However, those Baltic republics are a source of constant confusion...


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 15, 2004)

> Hey, it's Latvia not Lithuania!



 Beat me to that on, LizardWizard 

Wow, Latvia nearly pull off a dramatic upset, then walk off the losers.

LizardWizard: Any thoughts on the Mostovoi situation?  I haven't read much about that one, and I'm undecided whether his expulsion from the team will have a large effect on the team.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 15, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Wow, Latvia nearly pull off a dramatic upset, then walk off the losers.



That's real shame, they should have walked off with at least a point. The Latvians must have been frightened by their own success.



> Any thoughts on the Mostovoi situation?  I haven't read much about that one, and I'm undecided whether his expulsion from the team will have a large effect on the team.



Yartsev's decision appears rather harsh; however, player vs. coach conflicts are detrimental to both parties. We have a lot of strong midfielders and could easily find a replacement for Mostovoi (Los'kov being the most logical), but his banishment from the team can be demoralizing. If someone in the squad openly voices support for Mostovoi, we could suffer the same squabbles that plagued us in '94 and '96.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 15, 2004)

Well the Czechs top their group, neither the Netherlands or Germany looked entirely convincing, the first round of matches are over,  and only two days to go till England face the Swiss.

Tomorrow Greece vs Spain is important and Russia can see if Portugal are going to be crushed by the pressure of the expectation.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 15, 2004)

LizardWizard said:
			
		

> Hope to see a lot of goals tonight - the Dutch play offence-oriented football,




As I've already stated earlier. they don't is this championships. Playing with only 1 forward when you've got 4 of europest top 20 forward is almost comparable to an insult against us spectators. I sincerely hope Netherlands go out so that all teams like them and Italy can be taught a lesson.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 15, 2004)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> Sometimes I wonder if Cole - Lampard - Gerrard - Dyer would be a better England midfield...




Svennis just has to learn to use Beckham correctly as a central midfielder instead of right winger. That would probably mean changing system away from the 4-4-2, so that's unlikely Svennis would and could do that. Another coach might.

An why does Englands style of play remind me of Arsenal in the 70's and 80's?


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 16, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> As I've already stated earlier. they don't is this championships. Playing with only 1 forward when you've got 4 of europest top 20 forward is almost comparable to an insult against us spectators. I sincerely hope Netherlands go out so that all teams like them and Italy can be taught a lesson.



 That seemed curious to me to.  Where was Kluivert?  Ruud van Nistolroy, as good as he is, was very well marked for most of that match.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 16, 2004)

Apparently Van Nistelroy and Kluivert have a feud going and Van Nistelroy has point blank refused to play at the same time as Kluivert.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 16, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Apparently Van Nistelroy and Kluivert have a feud going and Van Nistelroy has point blank refused to play at the same time as Kluivert.



 That's a real shame.  Kluivert is one of the players I want to see.

I think tonight's Russia-Portugal match will be really important in deciding that group's standings (sounds cliche, I know).  Basically, both teams can't lose.  Portugal will be most people's favorite, but I think a lot depends on which Portugal team shows up tonight, as the one that played on Saturday will not be sufficient to crack the well disciplined defence Russia showed against Spain.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 16, 2004)

With Russia - Portugal it really depends if Portugal can play as a team, as individually there are some hugely talented players there, but if they don't work together then Russia could edge it. I wonder how much impact Mostovoi being sent home will have?


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 16, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> I wonder how much impact Mostovoi being sent home will have?




As LizardWizard noted, Russia has plenty of midfielders.  I agree Loskov would be the best replacement, and maybe should have started in any event.  Loskov is younger the fresher legs will be important in the heat.

In terms of team quality, I don't think loosing Mostovoi at this point in his career (he's 35 I believe) will be critical.  Now, if there's an internal row following his departure, it could be bad.  For Russia's sake, I hope coach Yartsev considered the effect expelling Mostovoi would have on the team, and didn't do it to satisfy his ego.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 16, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> As LizardWizard noted, Russia has plenty of midfielders.  I agree Loskov would be the best replacement, and maybe should have started in any event.  Loskov is younger the fresher legs will be important in the heat.



Yeah, although Los'kov is a bit older than 30, he has been demonstrated speed and playmaking abilities that make you forget his age. Alas, in recent matches Mostovoi has reminded that you can't always play well beyond 30.


> For Russia's sake, I hope coach Yartsev considered the effect expelling Mostovoi would have on the team, and didn't do it to satisfy his ego.



Oh, I wish it were this way. Yartsev is known for his patience and trust in his players, and he must have really thought twice about dismissing the most experienced and respected footballer from the team.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 16, 2004)

So the Greeks got another point, largely by hard work and team spirit the way they got their other ones. Spain - are they going to fall prey to their usual problem in major championships of not living up to their collective talent?


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 16, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> So the Greeks got another point, largely by hard work and team spirit the way they got their other ones. Spain - are they going to fall prey to their usual problem in major championships of not living up to their collective talent?



If Portugal can win against the Russian, we are heading for a beautiful game on Sunday!!!


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 16, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> If Portugal can win against the Russian, we are heading for a beautiful game on Sunday!!!



This game shall  be even more beautiful if _ we _ win tonight...


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 16, 2004)

Well done to Portugal, now it's 24 hours of nervous waiting for the next England game...


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 16, 2004)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> Well done to Portugal, now it's 24 hours of nervous waiting for the next England game...




Which I predict is going to be a draw.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 17, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> Which I predict is going to be a draw.



English should win this one, but they might have a harder time with Croatia. I hope France can win tomorrow and qualify for the next round.

I would personally like to see them lose, British are a bit too cocky and deserve that cold shower.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 17, 2004)

I think England will edge it, but it'll be tight - probably no more than one goal either way.

Well done to Portugal btw, though I think that sending off was unfortunate for Russia.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 17, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Well done to Portugal btw, though I think that sending off was unfortunate for Russia.



And unfair, too...
Ovchinnikov DID NOT touch the ball, and that's pretty evident on the TV replay.
Nevertheless, we have only ourselves to blame. With such a performance, we could barely hope for a 0:0 draw. No such luck.
Ah, well. I guess I'll sit back and enjoy the rest of the championships.
_ Allons, enfants de la patrie... _


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 17, 2004)

> Ovchinnikov DID NOT touch the ball, and that's pretty evident on the TV replay.



 Agreed.  Very unfortunate.

OT: to LizardWizard--I just bought your module.  I'll try to review it--look for it in the coming days.  Haven't looked through it yet, but the layout looks excellent!  (sorry for this OT hijack, but hey, this is an OT forum )


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 17, 2004)

On to happier news from group C.   

Totti will be suspended for the remainder of the championships (that's two more games for Italy) and a few in the WC qualifier (probably around 5 games in total) for unsportmanlike conduct (he spat at and on Christian Poulsen and Daniel Jensen on several filmed occasions) in the Italy-Denmark game. More Italian players are probably going be investigated for the same behaviour.

Word cannot express the resentment I feel about such behaviour. They should be banned as if they had been doped. 6 months suspension from all matches minimum.

On another note connected to the Italy-Denmark game, I find it incredible that people, Italians mainly, are blaming Trappatoni for the draw. Denmark held Italy in an iron grip that Italy just doesn't have the quality players to get out of, that's the end of it. True, Denmark didn't break the deadlock either, but without our two best players that was to be expected.

Speaking of those two. They are both back now. Thomas Graversen is back from suspension in the first match and Jesper Grønkjær has joined the training camp after having attended his mothers tragic and sudden death and funeral on friday and monday (the Italy-Denamrk game day) respectively. Condolences to Jesper for his tragic loss, and good to see the probably biggest star and best player in the danish team back.

In the words of Morten Olsen the danish coach on the coming games: "Now that we've played the easiest team in the group (ie Italy) some big challenges awaits us. I consider the Bulgaria match the toughest in this group because this is a we have to win unlike the Italy and Sweden games where we could and can settle for a draw if it turned (or turns) out that way." (Danish gramma is a little hard to translate properly).

EDIT: Oh and btw, I should note that I watch all the games on my miniature 2½" colour TV at work while driving a big freaking forklift .. who said hazardous.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 17, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> Totti will be suspended for the remainder of the championshipsand a few in the WC qualifier (probably around 5 games in total) for unsportmanlike conduct.



3 games. I'm not gonna even start to defend Totti and I think that's too little a punishment, but report the facts correctly.


> _(that's two more games for Italy)_



Don't sell the bear's hide until you kill it, they say.


> _More Italian players are probably going be investigated for the same behaviour._



Again, that's not true.


> _On another note connected to the Italy-Denmark game, I find it incredible that people, Italians mainly, are blaming Trappatoni for the draw. Denmark held Italy in an iron grip that Italy just doesn't have the quality players to get out of, that's the end of it. True, Denmark didn't break the deadlock either, but without our two best players that was to be expected. [snip]
> EDIT: Oh and btw, I should note that I watch all the games on my miniature 2½" colour TV at work while driving a big freaking forklift .. who said hazardous.  _



That explains your view on the match. I dissent. By the way, it's Trapattoni.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 17, 2004)

I regularly disagree with AGGEMAM about football matters. 

I think England will get a victory today, for no better reason than we're a better side than the Swiss. Although I can't understand why, after the sucess of going to a flat 4 in the midfield, we're reverting to the diamond formation. I can see Murat Yakin rubbing his hands with glee at the prospect of having Frank "Attacking Midfielder" Lampard marking him.

Lampard didn't do so well against the Japanese as a holding midfield, how's he going to cope against the Swiss? Eriksson has made a bad error there, I think.

Here's hoping a) Beckham and Owen perform a lot better and b) Rooney gets the goal his play against France warranted.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 17, 2004)

> I think England will get a victory today, for no better reason than we're a better side than the Swiss.



Agreed. Your team is just plain stronger. 
And the French should definitely run over Croatia.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 17, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> On to happier news from group C.
> 
> Totti will be suspended for the remainder of the championships (that's two more games for Italy)



You might be dissapointed and as for Italy being the easiest game. Come On. I guess the Danish newspaper are as cocky as the british.

The Danish-Italy match up makes me thing of the Greek-Spain game. Here in Montreal the Greeks are all excited because they were able to tie with the spanish and the spanish community is devasted by not being able to beat the greek (I will not even talk about the Portugese, my wife is portugese so I have good connections). Italians in Montreal are quite dissapointed by this tie. There is really not a lot of Danish in Montreal so I can't really say, but from your post you seem all excited about the results.

Any way, Since I love to hate the Italians  I would be very dissapointed if they would not make it through the first round.

P.S as you can see Montreal is a very multicultural city


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 17, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> 3 games. I'm not gonna even start to defend Totti and I think that's too little a punishment, but report the facts correctly.
> 
> That explains your view on the match. I dissent. By the way, it's Trapattoni.




Written before the actual punishment was agreed so ...




> _More Italian players are probably going be investigated for the same behaviour.
> 
> Again, that's not true._




Actually that is true. They (the danish tv) are enhancing pictures that shows Del Piero, Nesta, and Panucci doing excately the same thing. If it is not clear on those of course they wont be submitted.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 17, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> You might be dissapointed and as for Italy being the easiest game. Come On. I guess the Danish newspaper are as cocky as the british.
> 
> There is really not a lot of Danish in Montreal so I can't really say, but from your post you seem all excited about the results.




The word are the danish coaches own, not the newspapers, and I agree with his position for three reasons, 1) Denmark has at least as good players as Italy, 2) Denmark has better team spirit, and 3) There wasn't the pressure on the team to beat Italy as there are on them beating Bulgaria and Sweden.

And just to get it straight. No. Not many people here are satisfied with the draw but under the circumstances it's agreeable.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 17, 2004)

I'm glad Totti got the ban because the unsportsmanlike conduct does need to be dealt with severely so that players will think twice about spitting, etc.

I don't think that using a diamond midfield formation is a good idea for England, but then again Svennis is paid to make those decisions not me. Switzerland are a decent team and nobody that's made it to these finals should be underestimated, this isn't like getting San Marino or Luxembourg in the qualifiers who really are an easy game.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 17, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Switzerland are a decent team and nobody that's made it to these finals should be underestimated, this isn't like getting San Marino or Luxembourg in the qualifiers who really are an easy game.




That's very true. IIRC, Switzerland came top of their qualifing group which sported Russia and Ireland only conceeding one loss.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 17, 2004)

Again I'm not defending anyone, but following a single player with a camera for a whole match with the only purpose to denounce him two days later when you had the time to look through it frame by frame doesn't seem very sportsmanlike to me either. We don't know if the danish or english or french or every other nation's players did something like that, because they weren't under such observation. I thought these were the European Championships, not the Big Brother.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 17, 2004)

Not looking good for England, could Swiss cause a big upset?


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 17, 2004)

Tallern, you say you occasionally have a disagreement with AGGEMAM regarding football matters? 

Well, Rooney got his goal, though I would give much of the credit there to Owen.

EDIT:  Rooney scores again.  Wow, that was a fine shot.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 17, 2004)

Well a win for England, not a classic game, but the result we needed. Got to admit I don't know why Haas was sent off for nothing much of a challenge and that Rooney's second goal was lucky, but that is football for you.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 17, 2004)

Hey, Rooney is the youngest player in history to score in Euro final round!!!


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 17, 2004)

And Croatia goes up over France.  _Kakaya sensatsiya!!!!_

France's defensive line is showing problems.  Thhat's the second penalty Silvestre has given up in the tournament.

EDIT: France have just equalized.  2-2


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 17, 2004)

Whew!
The French managed to get away.
I hope they won't have the same kind of trouble with Switzerland...
IMHO, France will be the first, England second, Croatia third, and Switzerland last with a big ZERO in both points and goals.


----------



## Capellan (Jun 17, 2004)

LizardWizard said:
			
		

> Switzerland last with a big ZERO in both points and goals.




I bet you a thousand US dollars they get at least one point 

(they drew their first game, after all ... )


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 17, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Tallern, you say you occasionally have a disagreement with AGGEMAM regarding football matters?




Him being a Spurs man and me a Toonie we occasionally discuss football on Random's. It's safe to say that the number of times we've agreed on something are indeed rare.   That doesn't prevent a good discussion though.   

They way I see football is that it doesn't matter whether the team I'm rooting for wins or losses as long as they play well. I think Tallarn sees it the way that only points count. It's a classic clash of football philosophies.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 17, 2004)

Capellan said:
			
		

> (they drew their first game, after all ... )




And nothing is settled in that group yet. They can all make it or bust.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 18, 2004)

Capellan said:
			
		

> I bet you a thousand US dollars they get at least one point
> 
> (they drew their first game, after all ... )



Oops.
My bad.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 18, 2004)

Well with Group B now the last matches should be interesting:
England Wins      France Wins - France and England through
England Wins      France Draw - England and France through
England Wins      France Lose - England and one from France or Switzerland go through

England Draw     France Win - France and England through
England Draw     France Draw - France and England through
England Draw     France Lose - England and one from France or Switzerland go through

England Lose     France Win - France and Croatia through
England Lose     France Draw - France and Croatia through, but who wins the group is down to goals
England Lose     France Lose - Croatia and one from France or Switzerland 

Everything to play for still.

Unlike Group A where Russia are definietly out already.

I think the Sweden - Italy game could be a good match and I think Denmark will beat Bulgaria fairly comfortably.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 18, 2004)

Denmark have played quite well and deserved their three points.
However, Batista is a real dumb@$$ of a referee.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 18, 2004)

Yeah, that no-call near the penalty area was a huge miss.  That's got to be the biggest referee mistake of the tournament.

I hope the fans didn't do anything stupid.  Things were getting ugly there toward the end.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 18, 2004)

And once again Trapattoni shows he's the stupidest man in the world, calling off every man that could try to ressurrect the game when things go wrong.
I changed my mind, I hope we leave these championships as soon as possible so we haven't got any more chances to embarass ourselves further.
I thought we had some chances in the first half, but no way, he's still anchored to game concepts that died at least 30 years ago.
We deserve to go home.


----------



## LizardWizard (Jun 18, 2004)

I wouldn't be such a pessimist, Lichtenheart. 
All you have is to beat Bulgaria really hard and hope Sweden vs. Denmark doesn't resut in a draw.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 18, 2004)

Well Group C turns out to be another where any of three teams could go through, but if Sweden and Denmark draw then Italy need to beat Bulgaria by three goals or more to go through. Sweden - Denmark will be really tight as they're similar teams in style and quality of player, but for Italy to get many goals they've got to get the lead out when it comes to attacking.

Tomorrow the Netherlands need a good result against the Czechs, but even this German side should be able to overcome Latvia.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 18, 2004)

Denmark played really well but turned down to save strength in the second half which is recommendable considering the heat our games are played in. I don't know how the referee could miss that freekick either but that's hardly any reason for the Bulgarian players to start chopping down every Dane that comes nearby. It was evident throughout the match that Denmark had 2 or 3 extra gears to put their football machine in.

I wouldn't be too hard on Traputito (misspelling intended in a friendly tone). Italy played really really well in the first half, and as I noted before the first match ever started they played better without Totti than with. They problem with him being that he's too big a star in his own club having an entire team working only for him, and in the international games he hasn't got that. Like Denmark they turned down to save strength in the second half but unfortunately for Italy two much.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 19, 2004)

*ENGLAND!*​




 
Ahem. Sorry.​


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 19, 2004)

Strike my last comment about who gets through or not in our group. If Sweden and us draws by 2-2 or more (ie 3-3, 4-4) it appears the Italy-Bulgaria game doesn't matter at all even if Italy win a million to zero because of the complex rules.

I'm heading down to Ladbrokes to place some money on 2-2 now.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 19, 2004)

Well done Latvia, holding the Germans to a draw. Heard most of the match on the radio rather than watching so I don't know how to take the commentators description. So Germany have now not won a game in the European championship finals since the 1996 final! So much riding on Netherlands - Czech Republic game now.

Looks like the Danes did have a bit more quality there and they could have got more if the heat had been less.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 19, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> Strike my last comment about who gets through or not in our group. If Sweden and us draws by 2-2 or more (ie 3-3, 4-4) it appears the Italy-Bulgaria game doesn't matter at all even if Italy win a million to zero because of the complex rules.
> 
> I'm heading down to Ladbrokes to place some money on 2-2 now.




Of course if Sweden and Denmark do draw 2-2 or whatever, expect the Italian press to complain about match fixing.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 19, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Of course if Sweden and Denmark do draw 2-2 or whatever, expect the Italian press to complain about match fixing.





So? Who cares?


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 19, 2004)

Yeah, who cares?


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 19, 2004)

Czech Republic 3 - Holland 2. Incredible, yet another sending off which shouldn't have been, but end to end action all game. If the Dutch play like this against Latvia they should get through as I don't see the Germans even getting a draw against the Czechs. All four can still get through, although the Czech's have already won the group.


----------



## Asmo (Jun 20, 2004)

This was easily the best game in the tournament so far - what a remarkable recovery by the Czech's!!
yesterdays game against a very very good Italy nearly made my heart stop- I can´t remember when I last was this nervous!
Our goalie Andreas Isaksson was spectacular, and I will always remember Zlatans incredible goal - what a trickster!
I can´t belive that Italy gave us the chance to get in the game again.
A big thanx to Mr Trapattoni.

Asmo


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 20, 2004)

What would people say is the goal of the tournament so far?

My vote would be Larssen's acrobatic header in his first goal against Bulgaria, and possibly Ibrahimovic's goal against Italy (both Sweden goals, I just realized).

Zidane's near-successful pass off his back heel against Croatia would have been a sure goal of hte tournament had Gallas (I think it was him) been able to connect.

I never like to rate free kicks in these sort of things, but Zidane's shot against England was stunning as well.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 20, 2004)

Today, Greece-Russia and Spain Portugal.

Grr, I can't watch the Spain-Portugal match live.  Two good teams and a lot to play for, that should be an exciting one.

It looks like either Spain or Portugal are not going to advance, either team will be shocked for sure.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 20, 2004)

Out of the goals I've seen Van Nistelroy's against Germany sticks in my mind, not just because of the goal itself, but because of its importance.

Pressure on the Portugese team must be enourmous tonight.


----------



## Asmo (Jun 20, 2004)

Spain is out.
Once again a very defensive team is punished by an offensive one. I´m really glad that Portugal pulled through tonight.
And Greece made it to the quarterfinals with that single goal against Russia!
Awesome!

Asmo


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 20, 2004)

I learned a few words in spanish today because I saw the match with two of my spanish friends. Appearantly the spanish coach is called puto, which is strange because I thought he his name was Saiz.  


I don't know why Spain thought they could play on a draw .. you can't expect to do that against a team that has to win and will kill themselves trying. So I'm actually glad they got kicked *looking over my shoulder to see if either of my friends watch what I write*


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 21, 2004)

Great victory for Portugal, I am very happy. The streets were full of greeks and portugese this afternoon with their flags on their cars honking everybody. I would have prefer to see the spanish go on, but when you play for the draw against the host nation you should lose. It was a great game till the end.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 21, 2004)

OK, judgement time for France, England, Croatia and Switzerland

MonsterMash summarized the situation as follows:


			
				Monster Mash said:
			
		

> Well with Group B now the last matches should be interesting:
> England Wins France Wins - France and England through
> England Wins France Draw - England and France through
> England Wins France Lose - England and one from France or Switzerland go through
> ...




France obvously have the best situation.  I think they'll easily handle Switzerland.  England had better avoid the 'playing not to loose' philosophy the Spanish used...  In any case, the England-Croatia match could be one of the surprisingly good matches of the tournament; looking forward to it.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 21, 2004)

England must play to win, and need to watch out for Croatia trying to sit back and hit them on the break. The other concern is the Croats trying to draw fouls from Rooney and look for him to get sent off.

Congratulations to Greece and Portugal.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 21, 2004)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> England must play to win, and need to watch out for Croatia trying to sit back and hit them on the break. The other concern is the Croats trying to draw fouls from Rooney and look for him to get sent off.
> 
> Congratulations to Greece and Portugal.



 There's also the danger of Rooney receiving a yellow and being unavailable in the quarterfinal should they advance.  With Owen out of form, that'd be a blow.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 21, 2004)

Half time in England - Croatia.  What a goal from Rooney, just at the right time after setting up the other goal. Croatia have everything to do now.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 21, 2004)

Wow, very impressive result for England, and especially Rooney.  No doubt he's the star of the tourney.


----------



## Capellan (Jun 21, 2004)

Much though I would like them to go on, I think that England will struggle to get any further than the Quarter Finals.  Their defence is a real concern, as is Michael Owen's lack of performance.

Against Portugal, in Portugal, is going to be a big task.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 21, 2004)

England - Croatia was a great game. 
I am happy France won, I don't feel they are ready to play Portugal, Greece should be easier but you never know.
Can't wait to see England - Portugal. If the Portuguese play as well as they did yesterday, England don't stand a chance.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 21, 2004)

What a game, not as good as Czech - Netherlands game, but England need to tighten up in defense and watch Figo and Ronaldo closely. Very tough, but a huge game. I do wonder if Greece could turn France over as they've got nothing to lose.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 21, 2004)

With the French performance lately, it could happen.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 21, 2004)

Sooo .. Denmark-Sweden. I betting on a 2-2 draw, not because of a big scandinavian comspiracy but because Denmark needs to win and Sweden needs to draw, so if it is half-way through 2nd half and the score is 2-2 I doubt either coach (or coaches in Swedens case) will take out 2 defenders to put 2 strikers on. Of course if either is in a scoring position neither team will miss on purpose. But it's only natural that if the score does become 2-2 neither team will have much incentive to force a goal, that's only natural.

Denmark and Sweden being neighbouring countries have played against either countries "arch-enemy" countless times, and usually with more than 2 goals scored. I think the actual 2-2 result is quite common when we've played.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 22, 2004)

Well there is an incentive, not meet the Czech in the quarter final, unless the Dane and Swedish are like the Greeks, just happy to make it so far, anything more would just be a nice bonus. 

Knowing the sweeds (I work in a sweedish compagnie and been to sweeden a few times) I doubt that qualifying for the quarter final will be enough to make them proud.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 22, 2004)

Just finished figuring out the tie-breaker situation in Group C; it's complicated .

I'd have to say as long as Italy don't really screw up and not beat Bulgaria (which would be a shock but not unbelievable), Italy should advance.  There are a lot of possible results between Sweden and Denmark, and _most_ of them seem to lead to Italy advancing.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 22, 2004)

Sweden - Denmark should be a good game as both know that a win guarantees they go through, and of course there is a bit of national rivalry between the countries.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 22, 2004)

Does anybody know the exact rules on Yellow cards and when players miss a match after getting two cards?  Will yellow cards from the group phase carry over to the knockout rounds?


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 22, 2004)

Yes they do. And I think they carry over to the next tournament as well.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 22, 2004)

> They way I see football is that it doesn't matter whether the team I'm rooting for wins or losses as long as they play well. I think Tallarn sees it the way that only points count. It's a classic clash of football philosophies



Woah! I'm a Spurs fan! I rate goals scored far, far higher than goals against. 

However, when it comes to England I am uncaring if we win. Spurs I demand to play entertaining football, England I couldn't care less if we win our matches.

Rooney is quite clearly an incredible talent, and Owen looked much better yesterday as well. Scholes ended a three year England goal drought - watch out for him scoring again against the Portuguese!

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that England will win, despite not being very sure about it at all. Can the Portugal defence deal with our goal threat? After all, we nearly kept France out, and Portugal can't be any trickier than that! And if we don't conceed, but score...*dances in the street*

I'm going to be incredibly nervous, whatever.

Best wishes to all those teams being supported here in ENWorld! C'mon, let's have an ENworld final, THAT'LL give us something to really argue about!


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 22, 2004)

Wow, *What* an ending to group C.  

Italy pull off a dramatic victory with a 94th min goal, and it's not enough!

AGGEMAM, got to admit, you were spot on, both on Italy not advancing, and the final score of the Sweden Denmark match.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 22, 2004)

The conspiracy theory could be true after all.


----------



## Asmo (Jun 22, 2004)

That was to good to be true, what an incredible game!!
I´m so happy that Sweden and Denmark is advancing to the quarterfinals. 
This must be the end of Mr Trapattonis defensive style of play. I wonder who will replace him?

Asmo


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 22, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> AGGEMAM, got to admit, you were spot on, both on Italy not advancing, and the final score of the Sweden Denmark match.




Yeah, I predicted Denamrk and Sweden to go through already in the very first reply to this thread. 

 *big freaking smilie*   

Yup, I got a good return on my investment there.

Anyone who saw the game, including Italian journalists, got to admit that there could be no possible talk about a conspiracy.

Grattis till alla svenska. See you in the final.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 23, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> I changed my mind, I hope we leave these championships as soon as possible so we haven't got any more chances to embarass ourselves further.[snip]
> We deserve to go home.



Well, it looks like we didn't leave soon enough and managed to embarass ourselves way further, though I thought it was difficult, with all the absurd talk about the conspiracy.

Last match for Trapattoni. Maybe there IS something to be happy about today.

Lippi will probably take his place, and I don't know what he would do, but do worse is nearly impossible.

I drink a virtual toast with my spanish fellows to a better future, and stick around to see what will happen. If I had to bet something, my money (and probably my heart) would be on England by now. But we'll see.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 23, 2004)

Tonight Germany-Czech Republic and Netherlands-Latvia.  Oh, the Netherlands are really hanging on a thread.

For some strange reason Russian TV is showing the Netherlands-Latvia game live and the other one on afterwards.  Dont' think I'll stay up for both.


----------



## reutbing0 (Jun 24, 2004)

And the Netherlands advance to the next round! Solid 3-0 victory against Latvia. Too bad for the Germans though (lost 2-1 from Czech Republic).


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 24, 2004)

OK, who are people tipping for the title now, with 8 teams left?

With 3 solid wins, I'd say that the Czech Republic are on form and have a good chance.  Still, I'd have to say that France's overall talent makes them a slight favorite among 8 quarterfinalists.

France are helped by having the easiest quarterfinal (with all due respect to the Greeks' enormously sucessful tournament).

France and the Czech republic appear to be headed to a semifinal clash, if the Danes don't foil the odds.  That match might just be the one that decides the title.

All of this of course leaves out Portugal, the host nation, who certainly have a chance as well.

All that said the tournament is quite wide open and a surprise winner could easily happen.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 24, 2004)

Who to win now?

My heart says *England*, my head says either *Czech Rep* or *France*, but all the nations left in are probably capable of winning, as nobody has looked unbeatable. For example the Greeks have got a huge team spirit and just by getting this far have achieved more than their national team ever has so for all of the French teams strengths they cannot underestimate their opposition.


----------



## reutbing0 (Jun 24, 2004)

I say England has a fair chance to win as does the Czech Republic. France just isn't playing very well this tournament. But really any team that's still in the tournamnt has a chance of winning..even the Dutch .


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 24, 2004)

I would agree the form France has displayed in the tournament shoudl give their supporters some concern, but they still have enough talent for me to believe they can raise their game.

However, injuiry worries for Viera and Gallus could worsen matters for them.

England have a good chance to win this tourney, but a tremendous obstacle tonight, probably much mroe difficult than the semifinal would be.

It will be a very good match I think.  It looks like the best of the quarterfinal matchups.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 24, 2004)

England currently 1-0 up on Portugal.  From the number of English supporters there, it feels more like an English home ground than Portugese.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 24, 2004)

And an *AWESOME* match so far.  Both teams seem to be pumped with _mass cats grace_ and _bull's strength_ .

This match has reminded me a lot of the England-France match.  England an early lead, Portugal responds with wave after wave of attacks, by extremely talented attackers.  England defend well (Sol Campbell is saving them again), and launch some very lethal counterattacks. 

Rooney being taken off is a real blow.

I really don't think the English defence can survive anohter half of this onslaugt, but we'll see.  They might be able to snatch another goal though and win it.

Portugal really should find someone else to do the free kicks, though.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 24, 2004)

Yeah, losing Rooney is a big problem. At least Owen seems to be a little more back on form, though.

We've lost a good defender (went home because his wife went into labour or something) and our best attacker -- I'm not really holding much hope now.


----------



## reutbing0 (Jun 24, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> We've lost a good defender (went home because his wife went into labour or something) and our best attacker -- I'm not really holding much hope now.




Sheesh !! Since when is that more important than soccer !  Too bad for Rooney though, _the_ man of the tournament so far.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 24, 2004)

Oh man ... you have got to be kidding me.  England won that game - that last goal was perfectly valid, and the referee disallowed it.

The BBC is showing it over and over again, and no one can see anything wrong with the goal.

Now it's into extra time.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 24, 2004)

PENALTIES!!

Whoever wins, this has been a match for the ages.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 24, 2004)

Nooooo! why did it have to be penalties. How much can you take.... World Cup 1990, Euro 1996, World Cup 1998, now Euro 2004, a poor performance, but coming back to  stay in the game showed a great spirit.


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 24, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> The BBC is showing it over and over again, and no one can see anything wrong with the goal.




You mean the Portugal goal in overtime right? yeah, that was in! Definately!

All in all a good match and with the right winner. Well, a winner is basically always right, right?


----------



## Stebie9173 (Jun 24, 2004)

Why oh why do us English have to be so sporting. Only playing six men all game and then even taking off our best player!  

Does anyone know which bar Beckham, Scholes/Hargreaves, Lampard and Gerrard were watching the game from?

Admittedly Lampard took his goal well, but the midfield was just not up to scratch. Portugal didn't need us to give thme the ball ALL the time. They are good enough without that.

And of course David "Calamity" James never made a save all tournament (including penalties) that I couldn't save (Yes, I am a goalkeeper, but my last monthly pay packet was probably about £100,000 shy of his, and it wasn't for playing football anyway  )

Sorry for the rant. I won't even mention the perfectly good goal by Campbell (again). All in all the best team on the night won and I hope they go on and win it - and not in any selfish "we lost to the winners" way.


----------



## Asmo (Jun 24, 2004)

A night like this I´m sure that there´s a higher power that punishes the defensive-minded teams and favors those who really tries to PLAY the game and not just stay home with all the team and destroy it. Portugal totally dominated this match with creative and offensive play. I´m so happy that we are going to meet Portugal in the semifinals.

Asmo


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 25, 2004)

Wow for once the team that deserve to win, win the penality.

Congratulation Portugal you deserved it. When will the english learn that scoring a quick goal and playing the rest of the game in your goalie box will lead you nowhere against strong team. Taught they learned from their defeat with the french, guess not. too bad for you. I think that Figo should retires. things went much better once he was subbed. But got to say that Owen goal was something. 

As for the BBC not seeing that the goalie was held down, I am not surprised.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 25, 2004)

Actually, it's a matter of interpretation of the rules. I think no referee in the Premier League would have disallowed that goal.

And on another matter, I think a team is clearly superior to another when it clearly wins. Why should a team with a defense like Cole and Campbell rush mindlessly to the attack only to please the crowd? They managed to make a goal that was disallowed near the end of regular time, and another goal in extra time, hardly playing only in their goalie box. England was no Italy. Even playing so much so much as you say in the english area, the Portugal didn't do more. Cristiano Ronaldo simply couldn't pass Cole. With Rooney on the field and a little more luck with the penalties it would have been a whole different match and you would be all here cheering Beckham and co. I've seen a wonderful match between two even teams, that ended with a nearly even result. No domination on either part. Very few matches in this tournament can be defined domination, Sweden-Bulgary comes to mind. That is not what I saw tonight.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 25, 2004)

I don't agree, Portugal dominated, England just sit on their lucky goal like they did with the French and they lost again. As for Beckham being the best shooter in the world(Bend it like Beckam and other BS), maybe, but not under heavy pressure that is for sure. In all international game I've seen him lately he always misses penality and free kick really not impressive. None of the English player really impressed me by their talents. Then they blame the penality area. The things is that even if it is true both team were shooting there.

Bah and I don't care I am just happy to see the Brits going home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't wait to see all the story on how they were cheated and bla bla because they cannot be beaten after all.

After seeing this game my heart is with Portugal for the final


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 25, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> Actually, it's a matter of interpretation of the rules. I think no referee in the Premier League would have disallowed that goal.



But this is not Premier League. You are like Canadians when they go to international hockey competition, yes but in the NHL it would have been good.
I always answer :This is not the NHL


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 25, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> But this is not Premier League. You are like Canadians when they go to international hockey competition, yes but in the NHL it would have been good.
> I always answer :This is not the NHL



You said you weren't surprised about the comments on the BBC. I only tried to guess why they comment that way. That goal would have been disallowed in Italy too, but that was not my point. I dunno about hockey, but I'd prefer UEFA and FIFA could agree on clear rules that didn't leave much space to interpretation. Otherwise the BBC has every right to complain.


			
				DarkMaster said:
			
		

> Bah and I don't care I am just happy to see the Brits going home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Well, I like this kind of honest statements, but they don't make up for objectiveness in judging a game.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 25, 2004)

It's not an interpretation issue for me, it's a factual issue - I've seen the replay loads of times from various angles in slow motion, and I see no push.

But still, I do agree that Portugal played better, as a whole.  I'd have loved to see England go through to the semi-finals, but it wasn't meant to be - I honestly thought we had a shot at the championship. I'll have to wait for the World Cup in a couple of years, now!


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 25, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> It's not an interpretation issue for me, it's a factual issue - I've seen the replay loads of times from various angles in slow motion, and I see no push.



It's not a push. Terry puts his arm on Ricardo's shoulder and he can't jump to take the ball.


----------



## Asmo (Jun 25, 2004)

Tonight we have France vs. Greece. 
Thoughts?
France should advance, but you never know, and Greece could surprise once more. Should be a good game. 

Asmo


----------



## OakwoodDM (Jun 25, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> Wow for once the team that deserve to win, win the penality.
> 
> Congratulation Portugal you deserved it. When will the english learn that scoring a quick goal and playing the rest of the game in your goalie box will lead you nowhere against strong team. Taught they learned from their defeat with the french, guess not. too bad for you. I think that Figo should retires. things went much better once he was subbed. But got to say that Owen goal was something.
> 
> As for the BBC not seeing that the goalie was held down, I am not surprised.





I'm sorry, but it wasn't a deliberate idea to stay back and defend. We defended because we had no Rooney to drop back and pick up the ball in front of the midfield. Owen's a different type of striker. On top of that, the entire midfield was exhausted and Beckham felt he didn't need to put any effort in.
That lot combined with the ref turning in the most horribly biased display I've ever seen made it certain we wouldn't make it through.
And as the commentators said, there's no rule against using your arms to jump. Terry had no idea where the goalie was, he was just going for the ball. If the linesman with a clear view of the play gives the goal, the only reason (other than home team bias) for the unsighted ref a good 20 yards away to chalk it off is cowardice. He didn't have the guts to allow a last minute goal against the home team.
Well, at least England aren't the only ones to have seen their last action of the tournament last night. Once UEFA watches that match, the ref'll be on his way home.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 25, 2004)

> Tonight we have France vs. Greece.
> Thoughts?
> France should advance, but you never know, and Greece could surprise once more. Should be a good game.
> 
> Asmo





Well, anything can happen, but I really doubt Greece will overcome this obsticle.  Their win against Portugal was against a nervous home side with a mountain of pressure on them not to screw up.  Plus, the Greeks were considered (wrongly obviously) a non-threat at the time.

France are a battle-hardened team with a lot more talent than the Greeks, or the Portuguese, who have had a chance to observe Greece's matches from afar and will be ready for them.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 25, 2004)

OakwoodDM said:
			
		

> And as the commentators said, there's no rule against using your arms to jump. Terry had no idea where the goalie was, he was just going for the ball.



There's no rule against using my arms to jump only if I don't touch anyone else. I can't punch you in the face and then say 'I was reaching for the ball.' and Campbell couldn't jump on Terry's shoulder to reach the ball. The referee (Meyer IIRC) has a solid 'tough but fair' reputation and I think he held true to that. He clearly saw a simulation in english area (by Nuno Valente IIRC) for what it was, where a biased one could have easily given the penalty.
Heck, I guess that if you say this match was the most biased you've ever seen, you haven't watched the last WC.
And I think Beckham played a match of great sacrifice. Cole was simply unpassable on the left side, but Portugal had a lot more play from the right. Both goals came from that side in fact, and Beckham often had to double in defense, which he did pretty well. Yes he failed the penalty. Can you really blame him that much, after 120' of running, with all the expectation he had upon him after failing the last time as well? Penalties are never a true test of a team's value.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 25, 2004)

OakwoodDM said:
			
		

> Terry had no idea where the goalie was, he was just going for the ball. If the linesman with a clear view of the play gives the goal, the only reason (other than home team bias) for the unsighted ref a good 20 yards away to chalk it off is cowardice. He didn't have the guts to allow a last minute goal against the home team.
> Well, at least England aren't the only ones to have seen their last action of the tournament last night. Once UEFA watches that match, the ref'll be on his way home.



Ok, after the initial euphory, my head is a bit cooler this morning  . If I remember correctly the one holding down wasn't the one who scored and the ref called it before it was actually put in. One thing that I didn't like on the BBC (I actually watched the game on the BBC, love the commentator's way) At some point Portugal seemed to have scored and England quickly counterattacked, they never showed a single replay of that action. Probably there was no goal but not a single replay, why?

Yesterday's game is one of the best I've seen in years. That was the first game my son watched (not the entire game he got distracted at some point) and I hope that it will help him get hooked to the sport. Has an half Portuguese half French his first Euro should be interesting  .

Seriously this game could have been the final of the Euro, the only other potential contender left in my opinion are the Czech. As for France unless they get their act together I don't see them winning against a motivated team like Portugal, the Czech or even the Danish.

Probably a victory for France tonight but that should be it, I don't feel they have the determination required to continue, very sad.

One last thing after seeing all these Real Madrid all star in action lately, I don't even question why they were beaten by Monaco.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 25, 2004)

I agree about penality not being a true test of Value. I hate game that end with penality, and I agree that after 120' minute you can miss them, but they are professional player and they are expected to perform. Penality are a test of will more than anything else, most of the other penality shooter had run 120' and they were able to put it in. Why did Beckham the "expert" missed? To much time working on his image, too much money to care don't know but in my opinion he lack determination and strong will.

I agree with you on the WC. The refering made me puke, I remember that Spain-Corea game...


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 25, 2004)

Heh, if there was a clear recipt on how to get strong will, the whole world, could be better, not only soccer. 

And about the replay on that action, not the BBC's fault. Every television broadcasts what the portuguese TV transmits. I didn't see them as well, and I would have liked.

I remember Spain laughing at us when Corea won vs Italy, and we complained about the referee. Then they played with Corea as well, and didn't laugh anymore.


----------



## OakwoodDM (Jun 25, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> There's no rule against using my arms to jump only if I don't touch anyone else. I can't punch you in the face and then say 'I was reaching for the ball.' and Campbell couldn't jump on Terry's shoulder to reach the ball. The referee (Meyer IIRC) has a solid 'tough but fair' reputation and I think he held true to that. He clearly saw a simulation in english area (by Nuno Valente IIRC) for what it was, where a biased one could have easily given the penalty..




So you're saying that every time someone jumps for the ball and touches someone else there should be a free kick? Well, that would make a very stop start game. Nearly every header won has contact. And Campbell didn't jump on Terry's shoulder. The free kick was given because the goalie couldn't get to the ball before Campbell, due to the fact that Terry was jumping in between them.
Tough but fair? Did you see him give a free kick against Rooney for being stood on? or Vassell every time he got near the ball? There was no way that performance could be described as fair by anyone other than a Portugal supporter (or an England hater). I just re-read this bit and thought I should point out I'm not accusing you of anything, just having watched the match, can't understand how you felt his decisions were fair.




			
				Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> Heck, I guess that if you say this match was the most biased you've ever seen, you haven't watched the last WC.
> And I think Beckham played a match of great sacrifice. Cole was simply unpassable on the left side, but Portugal had a lot more play from the right. Both goals came from that side in fact, and Beckham often had to double in defense, which he did pretty well. Yes he failed the penalty. Can you really blame him that much, after 120' of running, with all the expectation he had upon him after failing the last time as well? Penalties are never a true test of a team's value.




No, I didn't see any of the Korea matches in the last world cup. Unfortunately, IIRC, they were all on in the middle of the night here, and I rated sleep more important!
As for Beckham running for 120 mins? I don't recall him running for more than a second at a time. No-one on the pitch was really running hard, but he walked through the whole match, and his idea of defence was to stand 5 yards away from the player and hope he would be intimidated. And the reason both goals came from the right was because he and Neville failed. If he had defended well, they wouldn't have come.

I totally agree about penalties, though. I hate them but there really isn't any other way I can think of to decide draws in such tightly scheduled tournaments (short of counting corners or possession or something).


----------



## OakwoodDM (Jun 25, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> Why did Beckham the "expert" missed? To much time working on his image, too much money to care don't know but in my opinion he lack determination and strong will.




That's true, but I'm sure being the first person to use that sand pit of a penalty spot can't have helped. Can anyone explain to me why after it became clear that it was an awful spot they didn't try the other end? I mean, if they had done it after each team had had the same number of penalties, no-one would have been disadvantaged, and it couldn't have made it worse!


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 25, 2004)

Does anyone knows why the Golden goal rule was removed. I would have prefer to see Portugal win with a golden goal then on the penality shootout.


----------



## OakwoodDM (Jun 25, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> Does anyone knows why the Golden goal rule was removed. I would have prefer to see Portugal win with a golden goal then on the penality shootout.





I imagine it was felt that it was too harsh. Either that or it did the opposite of the intention when it was introduced. It was introduced to give incentive to push forward in search of the goal that would finish the game early, but it may have ended up that teams got scared of conceding and hunkered down for penalties. They do have the silver goal rule in place, though. If someone is leading at half time of extra time, the game ends.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 25, 2004)

OakwoodDM said:
			
		

> .
> Tough but fair? Did you see him give a free kick against Rooney for being stood on? or Vassell every time he got near the ball? There was no way that performance could be described as fair by anyone other than a Portugal supporter (or an England hater). I just re-read this bit and thought I should point out I'm not accusing you of anything, just having watched the match, can't understand how you felt his decisions were fair.



I don't agree, I felt that the Portugese were also denied important free kick an even maybe a penalty.


----------



## Stebie9173 (Jun 25, 2004)

*Penalty spot*

They didn't use the other end because, supposedly, it was just as bad. The England team had trained taking penalties at that end the previous day and had, or hadn't depending on who you listen to, lodged a complaint about it/them to UEFA.

Which does reduce Beckham's argument for the defence a bit.

According to Michael Owen's post match interview the pitch is sand based which makes the surface "like a thin crust on a soggy rice pudding" (What film is that a quote from?!). When Beckham (and others) kicked the ball the whole surface of the pitch moved under his feet and in Beckham's case the ball slid to the right as if on a tray...  :\ 

Having seen the earlier disallowed goal decision again today, I still cannot see anything other than 2 English players jumping for the ball. It is the goalkeepers job to outjump them. If he can't then he shouldn't be getting a free kick. They made NO attempt to foul him...

The referee of course will welcome your views at www.ursmeier.ch/referee


----------



## Stebie9173 (Jun 25, 2004)

*Silver and Golden Goal*

After one or two controversal golden goals it may have been that FIFA felt that a team could be robbed of victory by a poor refereeing decision.  

It's a good job that wont happen again!


----------



## Asmo (Jun 25, 2004)

After 45 minutes Greece-France is still 0-0, and Greece is the better team in my opinion. The other half should be interesting, can France make a comeback and show us that they can play footboll?
Or can Greece perhaps score in the second half and put some pressure on the French team?
Another match ending with penalities? Not impossible if the French team doesn´t wake up in the second half.

Asmo


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 25, 2004)

Only minutes to go and Greece are still ahead... Henry just can't seem to put it in and the Greeks are playing their hearts out.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 25, 2004)

France lost its a sad day for me but as much as I hate to admit it the Greek deserves it.


----------



## Stebie9173 (Jun 26, 2004)

*France 0 Greece 1*

Suddenly defeat (of the English) doesn't hurt so much   

Now I don't mind who wins the tournament. Although, I have to say I'm still undecided on the Dutch. Great people, shame about the team. It seems like Kluivert, Van Nistlerooy, Davids, et al are on a personal crusade to make me dislike the Dutch, despite myself


----------



## AGGEMAM (Jun 26, 2004)

OakwoodDM said:
			
		

> Well, at least England aren't the only ones to have seen their last action of the tournament last night. Once UEFA watches that match, the ref'll be on his way home.




I think not. Urs Meier was fantastically unbiased, a great game on his part. It is you who's biased.

I would love to have him ref' the final.

Besides IIRC it wasn't a free kick he judged, it was offside on both Terry and Campell.


----------



## Stebie9173 (Jun 26, 2004)

Offside?

The linesman had given the goal. It was the referee that disallowed the goal and he is on camera miming a push to the England players and he even says it was a push at the time. My lip-reading skill is not that high but it's good enough for that.

My vote is Nielsen for the final!


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jun 26, 2004)

My vote is for Collina. It's becoming like a consolation prize for us italians.


----------



## OakwoodDM (Jun 26, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> My vote is for Collina. It's becoming like a consolation prize for us italians.




I truly wish him to get it too, as he is the undisputed best international ref. However (and take into consideration this is at least third hand knowledge) I have been told that he has been given one of the semi finals and so would be ineligible for the final. THat is a real shame, as this will be his last major international tournament, since FIFA rules force him to retire (I think) at the end of next season.
The up side to this, however, to watchers of Premiership football, is that he may end up reffing here, since the English FA forces retirement 2 years after FIFA.


----------



## OakwoodDM (Jun 26, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> I think not. Urs Meier was fantastically unbiased, a great game on his part. It is you who's biased.
> 
> I would love to have him ref' the final.
> 
> Besides IIRC it wasn't a free kick he judged, it was offside on both Terry and Campell.





I'm perfectly happy to admit I'm biased. However, no-one can tell me that Meier was unbiased and competent. The man gave a free kick against Wayne Rooney for having his foot stepped on (I'm not saying it should have gone the other way, I'm saying there was no foul), and Darius Vassell couldn't get near the ball without the ref making up an excuse to give a free kick.

If I were you, I wouldn't be hoping for him in the final. If Denmark face Portugal and he's there, I fully expect him to bottle it again.


----------



## Asmo (Jun 26, 2004)

Tonight we have Sweden (yay!) vs Netherlands. If Greece could surprise France I can´t see why we couldn´t. If Larsson, Zlatan och Ljungberg and most importantly Isaksson plays at their very best we actually might win.
I´m a little bit afraid of our right wing where we have a big problem with Nilsson. It would feel much better if Lucic is on tonight.
I´m sure that it will be an open game with a lot of goals.

Asmo


----------



## reutbing0 (Jun 26, 2004)

Asmo said:
			
		

> I´m sure that it will be an open game with a lot of goals.
> 
> Asmo




A lot of goals for the Dutch you mean


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 26, 2004)

I'm still stunned by that France loss yesterday.  Totally deserved though, the french team really didn't seem to take the match seriously.

Some would say that all the traditional heavyweight European football nations are out now--England, France, Spain, Italy, and Germany.


----------



## Asmo (Jun 26, 2004)

This is one of the worst moments of my life. Oh how I hate penalities.
I feel totaly crushed, I can´t belive it.
So close and so far away.

Asmo


----------



## Stebie9173 (Jun 26, 2004)

Congratulations, Asmo. You are now an honorary Englishman  

Although, I do believe the Dutch have lost out 4 times before in penalty shootouts, too. So you can be an honorary Dutchman if you want


----------



## NewbyDM (Jun 27, 2004)

i CAN'T believe it, 'we' actually won a penalty shootout  EVEN hit 5 of 6 penalties!!!  man, im soooooo happy. after 1992, 1996, 1998 and 2000 this is a relief! 'We' actually won.....with PENALTIES!


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 27, 2004)

Wow, what a match.

Van der Sar is definitely the 'keeper of the tourney for me.  Between that match and the saves he had against the Czech Rep (albeit for a losing cause), he's been a tremondous force.

I'm really looking forward to Czech Rep - Portugal...


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 28, 2004)

So the Czechs go through and Denmark go out. I only saw the second half and though the Czechs didn't look that much better Nedved set up Baros well for the second goal and Koller wasn't marked properly on the first. At least the Danes were trying to win the game and playing a fairly attacking style, and the Czechs didn't just sit back even at 2-0 up.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 28, 2004)

> _Originally Posted by *DarkMaster*_
> Does anyone knows why the Golden goal rule was removed. I would have prefer to see Portugal win with a golden goal then on the penality shootout.




I think a lot of traditionalists didn't like matches ending on a goal; it seemed harsh and inapproprite, and the other team had no chance to respond.

That and what someone posted earlier that it in fact made teams more cautious and didn't have the intended effect of reducing the number of games decided by penalties.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 28, 2004)

Well, no football for two days, it's going to be difficult for me to adjust 

Might catch up on some sleep; in Moscow these matches were finishing at 12:30 and after nearly 1:30 a.m. if they went to penalties.


----------



## Turanil (Jun 28, 2004)

When the Greeks win over the French, a friend of mine told me that "_the greek had never been seen playing that good_". I answered that in fact "_the greek had never been seen playing at all_". Our "top champions" get really too much money... They have grown lazy, and their performance was worse than worse. Inacceptable.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 30, 2004)

Turanil said:
			
		

> When the Greeks win over the French, a friend of mine told me that "_the greek had never been seen playing that good_". I answered that in fact "_the greek had never been seen playing at all_". Our "top champions" get really too much money... They have grown lazy, and their performance was worse than worse. Inacceptable.



 Interesting how a quarterfinal appearance, which would be a cause for national celebration in some countries, is viewed as a national failure in others.  France's success lately has set very high expectations for their team.  True, though, the manner of the defeat was disappointing.

It'll be interesting to see if France can maintain their football superpower status by striking a balance between keeping the old guard who are still capable of performing and bringing on new players.  My understanding is France does have younger talent to fill voids left by Desailles and Zidane, but I'm not sure anyone can replace players of that caliber.


Moving on to tonight, we have a scintilating matchup between Portugal and the NEtherlands.  Portugal have the advantage of being the home side and having two more days rest.  I think that just might tip the match in their favor, though I do believe the Netherlands are the stronger side.  Should be a dandy.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jun 30, 2004)

Go Portugal Go, If they lose the Euro is over for me so Go Portugal Go


----------



## MonsterMash (Jul 1, 2004)

Well done to Portugal. Figo played much better this match than previously in the tournament so Scolari probably did the right thing by substituting him last game. So tonight can the Greeks get another upset or will the Czechs prevail?


----------



## johnsemlak (Jul 1, 2004)

Well, when the Greeks went up against France, I thought 'no way, this is the end of the Greeks' luck.'

So it would be foolish to rule them out.  Still, The Czechs are playing very well right now, wheras the French, though talented, had some visible of problems.

I certainly can't imagine the Czechs will go scoreless as the French did.


----------



## glass (Jul 1, 2004)

I wish I had found this thread earlier. Although, onsecond thoughts, perhaps it's better that I didn't. I might have have been very rude to Darkmaster if I'd read his comments about Englands second goal last Friday.

As to the notion that that whit Meier should be given then final. Disciplinary action wouldseem more approriate.


glass.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jul 1, 2004)

And the Greeks do it. I don't think even their most optimistic supporters would have expected it to happen before the tournament started. Of course it means that the same match for the last and first game of the tournament.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jul 1, 2004)

Now, if only we could get the same result too...


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 2, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I certainly can't imagine the Czechs will go scoreless as the French did.



Well unfortunatly for spectacle it happened.

I would have appreciate much more a Portugal-Czech in final.

Now we will have a one zone game, with a lucky goal at some point and another victory for the greek. 1-0

boring


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 2, 2004)

glass said:
			
		

> I wish I had found this thread earlier. Although, onsecond thoughts, perhaps it's better that I didn't. I might have have been very rude to Darkmaster if I'd read his comments about Englands second goal last Friday.
> 
> As to the notion that that whit Meier should be given then final. Disciplinary action wouldseem more approriate.
> 
> ...



The goal was not good, what was the problem with it again


----------



## MonsterMash (Jul 2, 2004)

Got to admit I'd dread a dull game, I just hope that Portugal can get an early goal so that Greece can't be so defensive. Full credit to the Greek team for hard work and team spirit, but I've got to admit for a neutral supporter you want teams playing open flowing football and scoring lots of goals more than dogged determination and good defending.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jul 4, 2004)

Here's hoping for an exciting final, not a dull war of attrition.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 5, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Here's hoping for an exciting final, not a dull war of attrition.



You were wrong, Dull Dull Dull and the lest talented team of the tournament win. Hope that the greek player don't get their head too big when they will return working in their farm.

I still don't understand that a team without talent can win the tournament. Well the only one that impress me was the goalie


----------



## barsoomcore (Jul 5, 2004)

Hurray for the Greeks. Man, they showed everyone. Great goaltending, great defence, and perfect offensive plays when they really needed them. Two absolutely perfect corners in a row, gamewinners both.

That was a fine game. Not a frothing mass of excitement, but demonstration of solid play and unflappable cool. They never lost focus, they never forgot their system and they kept the faith all the way. Hurray for the Greeks.

Some good lessons there for those high-priced players who get the big sponsorship deals and show up in commercials -- less time worrying about being a star, more time practicing your shots, and maybe your team would have won. Nice to see that money can't always buy success. Hurray for the Greeks.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 5, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> and perfect offensive plays when they



Please, when you barely can complete a pass, or shoot on the goal and have to rely on a single trick to score I don't call that perfect. The greek has one of the most pathetic offense I ever saw in an international team. The only persons who deserves the honor of the victory are first and foremost their german coach and the goalie. The coach because he taugh their five best player how to play a good defense in the goalie's box and make them practice their header on corner because that's the only they could possibly scores.

I hate when a team in any sports uses a highly defensive strategy to compensate for their lack of talents. Makes us the viewers pretty bored. I was so dissapointed that Czech didn't pass. Czech - Portugal could have been a game to remember. But this one tomorrow I won't even remember it.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jul 5, 2004)

As much as I hate saying that 'might makes right', if Czech Republic, Portugal and France were such better teams than Greece, they should have demonstrated it by winning. And defensive strategy wasn't used to compensate thier lack of talent, but to exploit their _different_ kind of talent. Otherwise you can play defensive as much as you want, and still go home (as many other teams did). A smart coach knows what kind of play makes his team give its best. It may be boring for you, but they're there to try to win, not to please the public.

And I don't think that the so called 'champions' worry much about being stars. Heck if they _really_ did, you'd think they'd really spend time practicing their shots. But if you were a player, and a sportswear firm came to you offering several millions to do a spot, would you NOT take them? Honest? What this tournament demonstrated is just that sportswear firms have poor judgement in choosing 'champions'. The field makes champions, not ads. It would be nice for a time if people (and, more important, the coaches) watched the games, and _then_ judged who the real champions are, instead of watching the ads and then be disappointed in normal players who just took the money like every sane person I think would do.


----------



## Darklone (Jul 5, 2004)

Stars or not, Greece won without stars because they are a team. 2 or 3 stars in the Portugal team were not enough to beat them.


----------



## Fester (Jul 5, 2004)

When the match started, I wasn't too bothered one way or the other about who would win.  But when Deco started launching himself at the ground like a scud missile to try and con the referee into getting a penalty in the first half, it really irritated me and I really hoped the Greeks would win.  They did  

I mean, that's a really crappy way to try and win a major trophy.

Congrats to Greece... here's hoping the Olympics are as successful for them.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jul 5, 2004)

Congrats to the Greeks, not a classic game, but how many tournament finals are?


----------



## johnsemlak (Jul 5, 2004)

Well, the Greeks certainly deserved it, despite all the naysayers.  IT may have not been the most exciting football but you had to respect their discipline and execution.


----------



## barsoomcore (Jul 5, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> Please, when you barely can complete a pass, or shoot on the goal and have to rely on a single trick to score I don't call that perfect. The greek has one of the most pathetic offense I ever saw in an international team.



Aw, is someone a little bitter?   

You go back through your replay library and find me a more perfect corner than either of those last two nailed by the Greek team. Oh, but I guess you classify a corner kick as a "trick", right? Right.

Their coach devised a brilliant, if simple, system (clog up the middle and don't allow breakaways on the outside, keep your wingers deep to grab clearing shots) and gathered a group of good enough players who had the confidence, the brains and the determination to stick by that system, to maintain it through two halves and extra time, to never lose their cool and to not be intimidated by a bunch of "stars".

Or maybe you think they shouldn't bother PLAYING the games, just award the trophy to whoever they THINK deserves it? It would certainly reduce expenses. 

I remember one of the plays in the Czech game that really drove home how clearly these Greeks knew what they were doing -- Baros was driving deep down the right wing, and faked out the defender. He was past and just about to cross into the penalty zone with no one between him and the goalie -- exactly how he'd scored against Denmark -- and the defender turned around and just tackled him. Grabbed him around the waist and threw him to the ground.

Sure, he drew a foul (not a yellow card, if I remember correctly) -- but it was a smart, head's-up play. The Greeks weren't afraid of a free kick -- their defence was unbreachable on those -- but Baros with room to move was almost certainly a goal. The defenceman had been beat, cold, by Baros, and without losing a beat he saw the situation, understood the implications of what he was seeing and took a simple action that might just have saved the game.

That's smart football. That's great field awareness and a perfect understanding of the game -- if he'd waited another step Baros would have been in the penalty zone and THEN things would have been bad.

And that's why I loved watching the Greeks play.

Sure it's fun when the big stars, who you know are capable of exploding out of nowhere, do exactly that and turn a game around with some dramatic, flashy, brilliant play. Every time a Zidane or a Figo or a Beckham gets the ball, you feel a little rush, thinking THIS time they're going to turn it on. And that's exciting. It was exciting watching Baros' goals against Denmark -- but there's other joys in sport, too.

I don't even know who that Greek defender was. He didn't do anything fancy or complicated -- he just did exactly the right thing at exactly the right moment. Which is what the Greek team was all about. Hurray for them.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 5, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Aw, is someone a little bitter?



Yes very


			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> You go back through your replay library and find me a more perfect corner than either of those last two nailed by the Greek team. Oh, but I guess you classify a corner kick as a "trick", right? Right.



Absolutly I could teach a dog to do it.


			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Their coach devised a brilliant, if simple, system (clog up the middle and don't allow breakaways on the outside, keep your wingers deep to grab clearing shots) and gathered a group of good enough players who had the confidence, the brains and the determination to stick by that system, to maintain it through two halves and extra time, to never lose their cool and to not be intimidated by a bunch of "stars".



True but if everybody was playing like that nobody would be watching football. A few years back in Canada they had the same problem in the NHL, a coach invented a great defensive system that allow his mediocre team to win the Stanley cup, the year after everybody was using it and the game became very boring to watch. Profesionnal players are supposed to give a show. But Oh it's true most Greek player couldn't be called "pro"
[/QUOTE]


			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Or maybe you think they shouldn't bother PLAYING the games, just award the trophy to whoever they THINK deserves it? It would certainly reduce expenses.



Not true, Czech, Portugal, England and Netherland were all playing awesome soccer and were all much more deserving than the greek. The greek were the most boring team of the tournament and lowered in my opinion the quality of the show. 


			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> I remember one of the plays in the Czech game that really drove home how clearly these Greeks knew what they were doing -- Baros was driving deep down the right wing, and faked out the defender. He was past and just about to cross into the penalty zone with no one between him and the goalie -- exactly how he'd scored against Denmark -- and the defender turned around and just tackled him. Grabbed him around the waist and threw him to the ground.



Wow, when you talk about finesse and sportmanship you can count on the greek, this is european football not american football.


			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Sure, he drew a foul (not a yellow card, if I remember correctly) -- but it was a smart, head's-up play. The Greeks weren't afraid of a free kick -- their defence was unbreachable on those -- but Baros with room to move was almost certainly a goal. The defenceman had been beat, cold, by Baros, and without losing a beat he saw the situation, understood the implications of what he was seeing and took a simple action that might just have saved the game.
> 
> That's smart football. That's great field awareness and a perfect understanding of the game -- if he'd waited another step Baros would have been in the penalty zone and THEN things would have been bad.



I think you are analysing too much, was desperate to stop him and lucky


			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> And that's why I loved watching the Greeks play.



We surely don't have the same definition of interesting game.


			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Sure it's fun when the big stars, who you know are capable of exploding out of nowhere, do exactly that and turn a game around with some dramatic, flashy, brilliant play. Every time a Zidane or a Figo or a Beckham gets the ball, you feel a little rush, thinking THIS time they're going to turn it on. And that's exciting. It was exciting watching Baros' goals against Denmark -- but there's other joys in sport, too.



What other joys, when you play what count his winning. When you watch and or pay to see a game you want to have something for your money or the time you spend in front of your TV. If every team in the league was playing like that you would see game attendance go down the drain and the various league would create rule to prevent this type of game, in hockey that is what happened.


			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> I don't even know who that Greek defender was. He didn't do anything fancy or complicated -- he just did exactly the right thing at exactly the right moment. Which is what the Greek team was all about. Hurray for them.



Well his buddy working with him on his farm probably do.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 5, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> As much as I hate saying that 'might makes right', if Czech Republic, Portugal and France were such better teams than Greece, they should have demonstrated it by winning. And defensive strategy wasn't used to compensate thier lack of talent, but to exploit their _different_ kind of talent. Otherwise you can play defensive as much as you want, and still go home (as many other teams did). A smart coach knows what kind of play makes his team give its best. It may be boring for you, but they're there to try to win, not to please the public.
> 
> And I don't think that the so called 'champions' worry much about being stars. Heck if they _really_ did, you'd think they'd really spend time practicing their shots. But if you were a player, and a sportswear firm came to you offering several millions to do a spot, would you NOT take them? Honest? What this tournament demonstrated is just that sportswear firms have poor judgement in choosing 'champions'. The field makes champions, not ads. It would be nice for a time if people (and, more important, the coaches) watched the games, and _then_ judged who the real champions are, instead of watching the ads and then be disappointed in normal players who just took the money like every sane person I think would do.



Stars are people who fill up stadium. People love to see all the amazing moves and trick they can pull out. In the end it is all about the money. Other than the greek no one would pay to see them play, they are too boring. Look at Real Madrid with all their big names, even if they don't win, people will travel continent to have the chance to see them in action. To dream when beckham or Zidane do a perfect free kick or when Ronaldo makes an incredible dribble followed by a unstopable shot. They won't get excited by the fact that the defencement was at the right place at the right moment and did a simple kick to clear the zone.

And when I watch the Euro I don't want to see that I want to dream. If I want to see the greek I can just wait a few years and go see my son play in his preschool team.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Jul 6, 2004)

I've got a really simple question for you, DarkMaster: what Figo, Beckham, Totti, Raul, Del Piero, Trezeguet, Davids (I could go on and on, but'll stop here), what all these people showed at this Euro makes you think their reputation as stars, as people who fill up stadiums, is deserved?
Did they show you all the amazing moves and trick they can pull out?
You say Greece was boring - was Italy better? or Germany? or France? or England?
You didn't enjoy this Euro - and you're perfectly entitled to your opinion - but was that really Greece's fault?
I don't know hockey well enough, and I dunno what changes could be made to football to make it more spectacular as you'd like it, but did the Greece do wrong in trying to stick to a game system that allowed them to win, Since they had no Ronaldo, Zidane or Beckham, and they couldn't make one for the occasion? Should they have just left room for the stars?
This Euro, and the greek victory, failed to entertain you. But five people posted in this thread to congratulate them, probably because they did have been entertained.
You like to see players that are able to do wonderful things when given the ball, other people may like to see wonderful goalkeepers (and Greece had one of them), or teams that really play as teams, or midfielders that can run forever, or impassable defenders. Other simply want to believe players that never give up, not even a minute before the penalties. It's not likely you can please everyone. Not everyone likes Real Madrid either. But in the end football is a sport. In a sport there are rules, and one should try to do his best within them. The greeks did. They won. If the others were better, than it is their fault they did not do their best.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 6, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> I've got a really simple question for you, DarkMaster: what Figo, Beckham, Totti, Raul, Del Piero, Trezeguet, Davids (I could go on and on, but'll stop here), what all these people showed at this Euro makes you think their reputation as stars, as people who fill up stadiums, is deserved?
> Did they show you all the amazing moves and trick they can pull out?
> You say Greece was boring - was Italy better? or Germany? or France? or England?
> You didn't enjoy this Euro - and you're perfectly entitled to your opinion - but was that really Greece's fault?
> ...



Well I want to clarify something. I enjoyed the Euro but not the greek games that and the fact that yesterday night I couldn't sleep because a lot of greek lives in my neigbourhood. I don't care for the big names as much as I care for fast paced games. I remember surprising myself when I watch the US in the last Euro, I couldn't like the american. Well they had no particular star in the team but they were great to watch, they were not particularly skillfull on an individual level (probably better than the greek taugh) but were able to build strong and dangerous actions against any country, they even beat Mexico.

Towards the end of the tournament I was cheering for the US and was extremely dissapointed to see them lose against Germany (they should have won this one but that is another story). A few months before that I would have laugh at the chances of the US and didn't even wanted to waste time watching what I taugh would be a pathetic team, same for the greek only difference in their case I was right.

The greek were barely able to set one offensive action correctly and relied on trick that they practice a hundred time to score a goal and then play boring defense for the rest of the game. The Italian use that strategy but they are talented their counterattack are usually well played and well set same for the English. And when they are hard pressed they can switch their game and go in offence as we saw it against Bulgaria(or was it Latvia?). But with the greek it is always the same boring strategy, notice how the Russian defeated them they scored first. The greek passing game is one of the most horrible I ever saw and is not IMHO at an international level of play.

I don't need superstar, the US in the last WC were a good example of not extremely talented players, but very exciting team to watch.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 6, 2004)

One positive thing came out from thisrofessional player are paid too much for what they deliver. 

When you are paid millions of Euro per years, you should give everything you got on the field especially when it is for your country. Money not being an issue for most of them, these type of competition should bring them an even greater challenge, the pride of representing their country. 

That is what drove the Greeks and that is why they won. But I still maintain that technically most of the 11 greek starter didn't have their place on an International field.


----------



## Capellan (Jul 6, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> Absolutly I could teach a dog to do it.




You can teach a dog to perfectly flight a ball from the corner into his teammate in the middle, and also teach it to rise above a world-class defence and put the ball past an international goal-keeper?  Maybe you should be coaching the Greeks instead of the guy that just made them European champions.



			
				DarkMaster said:
			
		

> The greek has one of the most pathetic offense I ever saw in an international team




You don't like the _way_ they play, that's fine - but don't denigrate their achievement.  They beat Portugal (twice!), France _and_ the Czechs.  This is not a single, fluke result: this is a well-planned campaign that three world-class sides should have found an answer for, and didn't.  In the four matches they played against those sides, the Greeks _scored five goals and conceded just one_.  By any measure, that's a remarkable achievement.

Let me know when your dogs can do that.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 6, 2004)

Capellan said:
			
		

> Let me know when your dogs can do that.



Don't have a dog and I was only talking about putting a header in a goal on a corner. When you don't have time and talent you focus on the simplest thing and repeat them until you mastered them fully. Their forward and midfielder clearly didn't know any other trick.

As for their defense I guess it falls under the WC US team category, except that defense is everything but exciting.

Yes great achievement for their coach, but nobody will make me say that their forwards and midfielder were International competition material.


----------



## barsoomcore (Jul 6, 2004)

I really should avoid picking on someone who's clearly in so much pain, but I just can't resist:


			
				DarkMaster said:
			
		

> I could teach a dog to do it



Possibly, but evidently nobody was able to teach the Czechs or the Portugese to do it. The Portugese had, what TEN corners in that game? And failed to score even once? Gee, maybe it's not so simple after all. Or else your average footballer is less intelligent than, say, a Yorkshire terrier.

Your whining doesn't prove anything except that lots of people in this world are sore losers. The Greeks played a smart, tough, cool-headed game and they deserved that trophy. You didn't enjoy watching, fine -- but I saw plenty of excited people in the streets afterwards, so maybe it wasn't a complete snorer.

And hey, look at all this conversation it's generating!


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 6, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> I really should avoid picking on someone who's clearly in so much pain, but I just can't resist:
> 
> Possibly, but evidently nobody was able to teach the Czechs or the Portugese to do it. The Portugese had, what TEN corners in that game? And failed to score even once? Gee, maybe it's not so simple after all. Or else your average footballer is less intelligent than, say, a Yorkshire terrier.



No they just have other stuff to practice. The reason I use dog is not to compare the greek player intelligence with dogs, they are obviously smarter than that. My point was that It doesn't require a tremendous amount of training to become good at it. And from what I saw on the field I was under the impression that offensively that was the only thing the Greeks could do.


			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Your whining doesn't prove anything except that lots of people in this world are sore losers. The Greeks played a smart, tough, cool-headed game and they deserved that trophy. You didn't enjoy watching, fine -- but I saw plenty of excited people in the streets afterwards, so maybe it wasn't a complete snorer.
> 
> And hey, look at all this conversation it's generating!



As a European I am ashamed that this team will represent us against the various International team. Can't Imagine an Argentina-Greece. The average Argentinean will look at the game and wonder what happened to European football, they might lose but they will still wonder what happened to the European quality of play. 

My guess is that if the rumor about their coach is true, we won't even see them in Germany and I won't hear any BS about the incredible football ability of the Greeks. Don't get me wrong if the quality of their play improves my opinion will change, but until then....

And as for seeing people in the street that only proves one of two things, you are either living in Greece or in an area where a lot of Greek lives like I do.


----------



## barsoomcore (Jul 6, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> No they just have other stuff to practice.



Nothing that helps them win football games, obviously. Maybe they're spending too much time rehearsing for their Addidas commercials.


			
				DarkMaster said:
			
		

> My point was that It doesn't require a tremendous amount of training to become good at it.



Again, evidently it takes more training than any other team was able to put in to this tournament.

Your argument is that the Greeks are a crappy team. You offer as evidence the fact that they scored two goals on the same maneuver. This is obviously nonsense, because given the EXACT SAME opportunities, only TEN TIMES as often, the Portugese were unable to score a single goal.

So suggesting that this is a simple tactic that anyone can learn only begs the question -- why were the Greeks so spectacularly better at it than the Portugese?

And if your argument to that is, "The Portugese were practicing lots of things," then the only sensible conclusion is that whatever things they practiced were the WRONG things for this game. And a team that can't figure out how to play against another team is a team that doesn't deserve to win.


			
				DarkMaster said:
			
		

> And from what I saw on the field I was under the impression that offensively that was the only thing the Greeks could do.



You may be right. It might be true that offensively the only thing the Greeks could do was score more goals than their opponents. 

I would say, even if corner kicks were the ONLY offensive play the Greeks could succeed with, that STILL puts them ahead of the Czechs, the Portugese and the French -- none of whom came up with ANY offensive plays they could succeed with. I say that ONE is better than NONE. Infinitely better, if you want to get mathematical about it.


			
				DarkMaster said:
			
		

> As a European I am ashamed that this team will represent us against the various International team. Can't Imagine an Argentina-Greece.



Why aren't you ashamed of the French or English or other "star" teams that are supposed to be so good? Why take your ire out on a bunch of hard-working players who were smart and determined enough to carry out a plan against what are supposedly the best players in the world?


			
				DarkMaster said:
			
		

> My guess is that if the rumor about their coach is true, we won't even see them in Germany and I won't hear any BS about the incredible football ability of the Greeks.



Oh, well, unfounded predictions about the future lend a lot of weight to your argument. Now you've got me convinced. At least we know you aren't bitter.


			
				DarkMaster said:
			
		

> And as for seeing people in the street that only proves one of two things, you are either living in Greece or in an area where a lot of Greek lives like I do.



Right. Because one would expect if, say, the Czechs won, then Portugese people all over the world would be celebrating like mad. Now you're just getting silly.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 7, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Right. Because one would expect if, say, the Czechs won, then Portugese people all over the world would be celebrating like mad. Now you're just getting silly.



I give up, the Greek are the most talented team I ever saw in my life, they make perfect pass 89% of the time they dribble like no one else, they can take all kind of difficult shot and all kind of position and still place the ball where they want. Their midfielder have an incredible vision of the game and can always spot the demarked forward and can improvise when needed. Their forward can feint half the opposing team and still get to score a goal. 

Hope everyone is happy and realised how all I just say don't make sense.

I like to tease the English or the Italian when Beckham or Baggio miss a penality and say all kind of things. But Inside I know that these two are or were amazing players. So no I am not ashamed to see them misses a penality or a team like Spain or France lose to a purely tactical game without any essence or talent. I prefer listening to a violin virtuoso who do some mistake but put some humanity and passion in his play than a cold perfect computer playing a bunch of notes.

Finding a loop in a system and win from it doesn't make you interesting and doesn't ingnite any passion for the sport. Seeing Baros drive inside and making that last second improvised and beautiful pass that leads to a goal will create more excitement and desire to go play than seeing a bunch of normal guy playing according to a very strict plan and win.

I don't agree with you last statement when the Brazilian won the world cup everybody was happy, a lot of people from different nationality where behind them, why because they have a flamboyant and incredible style of play, not because they play a stupid defensive game perfectly. Everytime I go see a Brazilian game in a cafe or bar more than half the people cheering for them never even put a single feet in south America. Now you explain that


----------



## OakwoodDM (Jul 7, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Your argument is that the Greeks are a crappy team. You offer as evidence the fact that they scored two goals on the same maneuver. This is obviously nonsense, because given the EXACT SAME opportunities, only TEN TIMES as often, the Portugese were unable to score a single goal.
> 
> So suggesting that this is a simple tactic that anyone can learn only begs the question -- why were the Greeks so spectacularly better at it than the Portugese?





I think at least part of this was because of the shocking play of the Portuguese goalkeeper. I mean, what possessed him to think that charging out to an area where at least 4 other people are between him and where the ball was coming from was a good idea?


----------



## barsoomcore (Jul 7, 2004)

DarkMaster said:
			
		

> I give up, the Greek are the most talented team I ever saw in my life



Excellent. We're done here.


----------



## DarkMaster (Jul 7, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Excellent. We're done here.



Yeah can't wait to see two teams like the greek playing together. Don't forget the ecstasy we will need it to stay awake.


----------

