# Evolution (Project Cancelled)



## Vascant (May 31, 2006)

Before the crash there was a thread with some information regarding Evolution, so figure it was time to catch everyone up to speed.  We now have 4 different screen shots to offer to give an idea of the direction things are heading and also looking for feedback as well.

History
  After creating NPC Designer I realized some pretty hefty design flaws were at the foundation and it would not be able to handle some of the things users desired; Saving and loading of the NPCs and massive edits.  While great for creating an NPC, these flaws created a weak area for campaign usage.  Data seems to be the number 1 issue for all d20 applications, except CMP and PCGen.  So in December I sat down with design notes for NPC Designer (700+ pages) and started working on, what would the next tool look like.  Thats how I came up with the Code Name: Evolution

Evolution
  With Evolution the first step was to humble myself, PCGen is perhaps the most worked digital data in the industry so rather then try and re-invent the wheel lets start there.  Taking their SRD portion I started creating what I refer to as Code Generators that read in LST Format data and then create Evolution source code.  While I cannot say for every dataset, those that I have purchased thru CMP have all worked perfectly in the Code Generator.  The User Interface was the next hurdle, creating a dynamic interface that the user can control.  Everything you see on the main interface is controled by external information that users can change.  If you do not wish to use Alignment in your game you don't have to and in fact it won't even show up.  If you wish to create something completely unique, you can as well and it will be as if it was created to handle it.  There are no limits to the amount of classes, levels, templates or any of those things commonly found in applications.  Epic material is not being looked at as a , will do later but instead being addressed at the very beginning, same with Monster Advancement.  One of the biggest mistakes I made with NPC Designer, I handled the PHB related information first and then did monsters and other things.  In Evolution I am starting with the monsters and then building upon that.
  One of the key steps is moving away from just a generator, each section as you will normally find in a char gen will have its own user interface but it will have dual functionality.  You can either handle all or some of the selections and then leave all, some or none left to the AI to select.  As in the skill interface, you will notice some of the key generator values available to be changed by you. Thats the idea of Evolution though, stripping away the seperation of things and merging them into one entity that works with the user rather then restricts.

Screenshots
  Now that I have finished a ton of the foundation code things are moving smoothly and a new screen shot is being made available usually once if not a few times a week.









(This is not even close to being done but does serve my need to see whats going on) 









I am starting on the Arms and Armor UI today so it should be available in a few days.


Any opinions or questions?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 31, 2006)

I like the design shown in the screenshot.

The idea to use an external (but comprehensive) source for material is definitely a clever idea. It increases adaptability and extensiblity, and also lessens the work you will have to make to ensure that the program will be usable. 

Starting with monsters and going from there seems to be sensible. I usually make monsters and NPCs by hand, and unless I use LA +0 races, I will always start with the race and racial SA/SQs and then determine the (base) ability scores. 

On a tangent note: 
What programming language do you use?


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## Mercule (May 31, 2006)

Looking interesting.  I really, really like the idea of being able to import .lst files.  I agree that that's about the only way you're going to be competitive.  I know the .lst files (especially the availability of the CMP files) were what convinced me to use PCGen.  

I also like that it sounds like you're going to have more ease-of-editing for your data.  LST files are better than most of what's out there, but there are still some major headaches in editing them.  I am correct that you'll be importing LSTs, and not actually just using them?

A question/suggestion on the skills page:  One thing that I really like about HeroForge is the per-level breakout of the skills, and my players have said something similar.  This is especially nice when dealing with level drains or creating higher level characters.  Will Evolution have such a breakout, or is it just a giant pool?  If not, I'd consider that a significant issue.

I'd encourage you to look at Unearthed Arcana while you're designing.  If Evolution can handle some of the odder rules in there (spell points, spontaneous clerics, weapon groups, armor as DR), then you're doing good.  If not, it may end up like RPGX, which is pretty, but not particularly useful (at least to me).

Another weakness in RPGX is that it doesn't easily support multiple campaigns (at least, it didn't last time I looked at it).  I run two campaigns, one in Eberron and one homebrew.  For Eberron, I'm using RAW, but I heavily tweak the rules to fit the flavor of my setting.  Plus, there's another GM in the group who has his own set of house rules.  A useful tool needs to be able to handle these various "modes" of play.

Dunno if you've got an eye towards it, but having a built-in initiative tracker in PCGen has been awesome.  I hope you can include something like that in Evolution.

Finally, exportability.  I love electronic copies of character sheets.  But, I hate having them handed to me on CD.  Email is so much easier.  Having a file sized appropriately for emailing it would be great.

Tall orders, but you did ask for feedback.  I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what you come up with.


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## Vascant (May 31, 2006)

Actually.. this is what I asked for.. and got it 

First:  Language is .Net 2005  (I picked it for a few reasons; I wanted to learn it and being I am retired I don't want to get caught in a gutter of sticking things that I am familiar with,  I like certain things in the Dev Env that really have made development fun, There is serious work by others to make the .Net Framework portable on Mac and Linux flavored OS's)

Mercule:  I have been debating on if a Per level breakdown would be needed, honestly you just sold me on the idea.  We already have started work on a type of version control for the PC/NPC though which should also assist in handling this feature as well.

LST Format Data:  Yes, there is a seperate tool that converts the data over to something Evolution can use.  At present the conversion process is at 100%, meaning I have not had to go in by hand to clean anything up before or after.  

Different Rules:  I am already looking at many forms, not just what you said but also Mr Cook's AE and IH.  Thats why I am getting systems to a point where the just barely function and then moving to the next, when I get the entire foundation completed I will then start to address these alternate rules and moving them into place.  This is also why you see extra space on the UI and not trying to just fill it up.  I know more is coming and want room to add it.

Multiple Settings:  Learned my lesson with NPC Designer on this one and had to come back and code it later.  Already in place, I have not done the UI for it because it just slows down my testing but the code knows it exists and already handling it.

Output:  At present for testing I am using the stat block but it uses HTML so anything is possible actually.  The output can be exported to SOAP as well (XML Basically).  Answer to this is yes, it does it can it will.

Init/Combat Tracker:  We had this conversation a few months ago and in fact was one of the seeds to redesigning and coding a new program.  To have the data structured with the idea to be used by other processes, features and functionality.

Seems we agree on something, a successful d20 application needs to have three aspects: A good User Interface, Functionality and Data.  Every application to date at best achieves 2 of the three and many just hit 1.  NPC Designer is no different as fails to hit the data and the user interface is at best decent (I am not going to take shots at other's software so will take shots at my own).  So with listening to NPC Designer users for the last 18+ months, watching the development of RPG Toolkit and RPGXplorer the time is perfect.

Thanks


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 31, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Actually.. this is what I asked for.. and got it
> 
> First:  Language is .Net 2005  (I picked it for a few reasons; I wanted to learn it and being I am retired I don't want to get caught in a gutter of sticking things that I am familiar with,  I like certain things in the Dev Env that really have made development fun, There is serious work by others to make the .Net Framework portable on Mac and Linux flavored OS's)



Having developed in C#/.NET myself (as a student project), I must say I enjoyed working with it. M$ Visual Studio is a good idea (though it has a few quirks). . Still, despite the work done for porting .NET, I think that might stay a weakness for a long time - unless Microsoft begins to work more with the OpenSource and Linux/Mac community. 


> LST Format Data:  Yes, there is a seperate tool that converts the data over to something Evolution can use.  At present the conversion process is at 100%, meaning I have not had to go in by hand to clean anything up before or after.



IIIRC, the PCGen .list files aren't XML, which might be a slight weakness, since .NET (and Java too) come with a lot of facilities for handling XML in an easy way (and the whole XML concepts like XML schemas/DTDs augment this). 



> Different Rules:  I am already looking at many forms, not just what you said but also Mr Cook's AE and IH.  Thats why I am getting systems to a point where the just barely function and then moving to the next, when I get the entire foundation completed I will then start to address these alternate rules and moving them into place.  This is also why you see extra space on the UI and not trying to just fill it up.  I know more is coming and want room to add it.
> [...]
> Seems we agree on something, a successful d20 application needs to have three aspects: A good User Interface, Functionality and Data.  Every application to date at best achieves 2 of the three and many just hit 1.  NPC Designer is no different as fails to hit the data and the user interface is at best decent (I am not going to take shots at other's software so will take shots at my own).  So with listening to NPC Designer users for the last 18+ months, watching the development of RPG Toolkit and RPGXplorer the time is perfect.



One idea: 
Maybe it is advisable to keep the editor "pluggable". 
D&D has a few aspects that work in this way. Just think of magic. There are few basic "spell concepts" - like calculating saving throw DCs. But specifics like mana points, power points, spell slots, spells readied and spells known are highly adaptable. Just as a magic system is a "plug-in" for the D&D ruleset, it can also be a plug-in for the editor. 
But on the other hand, designing a plug-in architecture is a lot of work (The afromentioned C# project used such an architecture, but we had luck that the ground work was already layed in a master thesis by a fellow student)


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## Mercule (May 31, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Mercule:  I have been debating on if a Per level breakdown would be needed, honestly you just sold me on the idea.  We already have started work on a type of version control for the PC/NPC though which should also assist in handling this feature as well.



Very cool.  When I gave creating a character gen tool a shot a couple years ago (before I realized I had nowhere near enough time), one thing that I noticed is that the d20 rules actually work fairly well in an OO paradigm.  Two observations, in particular, are probably worth mentioning*.

1) A character may be better represented as a collection of Level objects than as a collection of Class objects.  Think about how multiclassing works.  You will be taking the next numbered level for sure, but you could drop any class into that level.

2) A huge number of ability types, from class abilities to feats to divine salient abilities, are pretty much the same sort of building block.  PCGen kinda handles this by calling everything a "feat", but I think it could be a cornerstone of an extensible campaign engine.

* -- These may not be groundbreaking by any means.  I thought they were interesting observations when I first made them, but I have no ego at stake with them.  If you think I'm completely daft and go on to make a great tool, I'll still use it.  If the idea sparks something, then I'm happy to have helped.



> LST Format Data:  Yes, there is a seperate tool that converts the data over to something Evolution can use.  At present the conversion process is at 100%, meaning I have not had to go in by hand to clean anything up before or after.



All I can say is: Excellent.  If you can do what PCGen does, import my LST files, and give me a better interface for tweaking, I'm sold already.



> Different Rules:  I am already looking at many forms, not just what you said but also Mr Cook's AE and IH.



Oh, yeah.  Iron Heroes.  Those skill groups are going to be tricky.  I hope you can get it to work, because I'm seriously thinking about adopting that idea for D&D.



> Init/Combat Tracker:  We had this conversation a few months ago



Was it you I promised some code snippets to?  I know I did for someone, but then ended up getting really, really busy (seems like it was when I did a stint of 16 hr days at work).


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## Wonko the Sane (May 31, 2006)

I've been using (and enjoying) NPC Generator for awhile now, and I have one question:

Does this mean NPC Generator is dying/dead?


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## Vascant (May 31, 2006)

Mustrum_Ridcully:
.Net, yea have notices a few things I do not like.  I am not worried about what MS does or doesn't do personally.  This is not a paycheck for me as I am already retired.

Correct LST Format is not in XML so all I did was create a conversion process that creates source code from it.

Plugin:  Some of that is already done and some isn't, really depends on the system and how far along I am in coding and answering some design questions.  I learned some valuable lessons with NPC Designer concerning giving control over to users, mostly they don't do much with it and just ask for me to make the changes.  So while giving users the ability to make changes is present I am also trying not to teach people how to code either.  Case in point if you see in the Skill UI; Favored, Favored Ranks, Skill Limits and Rank Limits, those are details that in NPC Designer are available to be changed but in the script files.  Now users have a cleaner appoach to making such changes to the NPC.


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## mattcolville (May 31, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Seems we agree on something, a successful d20 application needs to have three aspects: A good User Interface, Functionality and Data.




I've been watching the development of D&D software for six years now and I'm astonished that no one seems to understand this.


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## mattcolville (May 31, 2006)

Wonko the Sane said:
			
		

> I've been using (and enjoying) NPC Generator for awhile now, and I have one question:
> 
> Does this mean NPC Generator is dying/dead?




There was a thread a while ago from Vascant in which he announced he was no longer supporting NPCDesigner because it's core design wasn't flexible enough.


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## Vascant (May 31, 2006)

Wonko the Sane said:
			
		

> I've been using (and enjoying) NPC Generator for awhile now, and I have one question:
> 
> Does this mean NPC Generator is dying/dead?





I never said I was or would stop supporting NPC Designer, in fact in alot of ways NPC Designer is different then Evolution.  Right now I have no plan to stop or cease supporting NPC Designer.  A couple of people every day purchase it so there is an obvious need for it.


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## Vascant (May 31, 2006)

mattcolville said:
			
		

> I've been watching the development of D&D software for six years now and I'm astonished that no one seems to understand this.




I can't talk, it took me doing NPC Designer to really grasp some things myself.  I will say it isn't as easy as people think, I have been playing this game and coding for 30 years and yet still learning 

My goal right now is to wrap up the racial aspects of the system and begin alpha testing. From there things will move at a smooth pace because of the foundation code being complete.  With some decent feedback from users helping me catch things that I miss or do not consider in the design I should be happy with the results.


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## karianna (Jun 1, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Actually.. this is what I asked for.. and got it
> LST Format Data:  Yes, there is a seperate tool that converts the data over to something Evolution can use.  At present the conversion process is at 100%, meaning I have not had to go in by hand to clean anything up before or after.
> Thanks




Hi there, I'm not sure if you've contacted us about the conversion of the LST data or not, if you did I apologies in advance for losing that communication.  You'd probably best drop us a line as there are some legalities that you may need to be aware of, especially around the OGL/d20 side of things...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 1, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Mustrum_Ridcully:
> .Net, yea have notices a few things I do not like.  I am not worried about what MS does or doesn't do personally.  This is not a paycheck for me as I am already retired.
> 
> Correct LST Format is not in XML so all I did was create a conversion process that creates source code from it.
> ...



A Plugin system doesn't have to be used by other users, it can also be helpful for your own development. 
You will always be faced with the problem of expanding functionality, and going back to the basics is time-consuming and sometimes even frustrating. But that said, even a Plugin architecture cannot guarantee to make it easy - there is always a risk of unforseen, fundamental changes, and than you are forced to go back to the roots.
I think that in "real-life" software development, predicting the likely changes and extensions - and how to design for something you might or might not have - is one of the big challenges, but might also enable you to build a long-lasting and succesful product-line.


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## Vascant (Jun 1, 2006)

karianna said:
			
		

> Hi there, I'm not sure if you've contacted us about the conversion of the LST data or not, if you did I apologies in advance for losing that communication.  You'd probably best drop us a line as there are some legalities that you may need to be aware of, especially around the OGL/d20 side of things...




I checked your site and PCGen a while back and there was no email to contact.  Anyway if you wish to contact me I am a little easier to find, djjones@rpgattitude.com.


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## Vascant (Jun 1, 2006)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> A Plugin system doesn't have to be used by other users, it can also be helpful for your own development.
> You will always be faced with the problem of expanding functionality, and going back to the basics is time-consuming and sometimes even frustrating. But that said, even a Plugin architecture cannot guarantee to make it easy - there is always a risk of unforseen, fundamental changes, and than you are forced to go back to the roots.
> I think that in "real-life" software development, predicting the likely changes and extensions - and how to design for something you might or might not have - is one of the big challenges, but might also enable you to build a long-lasting and succesful product-line.




ahh, I think we use same terms for different things.  For me a Plugin System which I am looking at to handle the ability to create Addins, either by users or myself.  The internal system is in a sense following the design I am just not coming even close to attempt to extact it.  Each system has data requirements, a job to do and an output.  This allows me to do what I think you are speaking of now, coming back later and changing the actual job or modifying it.  I commonly refer to this as a design flaw in NPC Designer, where I designed a rule based system when I should have been creating an exception based system.  Next question is, will it work?


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## mattcolville (Jun 1, 2006)

Here's what I'm looking for. Let me know if this software will do this.

1) Create high level (12th+) PCs and NPCs complete with PrCs.
2) Allow me to add new spells, new feats, new gods, new domains, new Prcs.

The interface already looks better than most interfaces I've seen for this kind of thing.


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## Vascant (Jun 1, 2006)

mattcolville said:
			
		

> Here's what I'm looking for. Let me know if this software will do this.
> 
> 1) Create high level (12th+) PCs and NPCs complete with PrCs.
> 2) Allow me to add new spells, new feats, new gods, new domains, new Prcs.
> ...




As with NPC Designer, I agree it needs to be able to handle that functionality as well.  Editors to allow the addition and changing of the data will come later but going in yourself and adding new information or changing current is available from the start.  They are just in normal text so even note pad can do it.

Expect the racial code to be in Alpha testing this month and then the rest will follow very quickly.


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## pogre (Jun 5, 2006)

As usual, I'm impressed. [pogre stands in line to buy the finished product]


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## Vascant (Jun 6, 2006)

For the next interface I decided to step further away from how normal things are done perhaps and put together everything I need on a single screen to handle Arms and Armor.  This area could be one of the biggest failures of any d20 software product because they normal have you still looking in books or flipping to other screens, so the goal here is to stop that.  It will allow you to see your the modifiers effecting Armor, Melee and Ranged while making selections without having to move.  Though these lists are static, I do intend for them to be more dynamic as you make selections.  So that if you select heavy armor, it will change your dex adjustment accordingly to the Max Dex allowed or if you select a weapon you are not proficient with, that adjustment will come up.  

The only 2 items not handled yet are the Builders and Default weapons, which is waiting for the builders.  The builders will allow you to create the magic weapon and armor aspects along with special abilities.







So whats next?
I have some NPC Designer work to do and still trying to design a way for NPC Designer to use Item Designer output.  After I finished the update I will be moving on to Feats and redesigning the Stats UI for Evolution.  I also need to double check the Weapons Data, I found a few errors already which makes me want to go thru each one by hand.


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## Vascant (Jun 23, 2006)

After a few updates to NPC Designer and Item Designer to enhance their functionality and allow them to share data between the two programs we are back on to Evolution.

Feats is handled in two phases, the interface and then the engine.  The interface has finally made it thru the alpha tester's interface approval.  The Engine itself is half way thru the PreReqs and then will be the FeatMods section.  Once this is all completed I will begin to put all the pieces together and should be able to build a decent Monster Stat Block.  This will begin the Alpha Testing and where testers actually get a program to play with and comment on.







The system is seperated into three areas, the list of available feats, selecting a feat and feats that have been selected. There is an Advanced Search feature that will allow you to show Available Feats that meet a certain ability or flavor; example "Show only feats that deal with Weapons" or Show feats that modify Init. Unlike most other search options in the past, this feature goes beyond just the name of the feat as it can actually search based on what the feat does or how it changes the char. 

Otherwise it is pretty straight forward, it provides details about the feat such as a description, can you take it multiple times and does it stack so less looking up things in books.


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## Mercule (Jun 23, 2006)

Looking good.  I'm anxious to get a live demo of some sort.

One thing that I really do like about PCGen is that it breaks the feats down into categories (general, metamagic, wild, psionic, etc.).  I even like that for just general organization when I've put together compiled lists of feats for my own reference.  PCGen goes a bit far with the class/epic specific categories, but the core categories really, really help me figure out what I'm looking at.  It would be really nice to have that as an option in the filter.


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## Vascant (Jun 23, 2006)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Looking good.  I'm anxious to get a live demo of some sort.
> 
> One thing that I really do like about PCGen is that it breaks the feats down into categories (general, metamagic, wild, psionic, etc.).  I even like that for just general organization when I've put together compiled lists of feats for my own reference.  PCGen goes a bit far with the class/epic specific categories, but the core categories really, really help me figure out what I'm looking at.  It would be really nice to have that as an option in the filter.




The Advanced Search can already handle you wanting to see all "Metamagic" feats or all "Epic Metamagic" feats but I do see your point about the actual list being broken down into what Catagory the feat belongs too.  Perhaps in addition to the Advanced Search, it also needs a visual marker to break the list up between catagories as well.


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## rom90125 (Jun 26, 2006)

God Vas, you do good work....add me to the list of peeps waiting in line to purchase the release version.


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## talmar (Jun 26, 2006)

Man, I so cannot wait for this to see release.  This is looking like it'll blow NPCDesigner out of the water.


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## Vascant (Jun 28, 2006)

Thanks guys, things are moving along actually better then expected.  I am probably two days at most from being able to work on producing a stat block based on a Monster, it also already saves to a form of XML to allow for char sheet building and such.  The display and what you see at the end is all HTML, so it is easy for you to work with the results.

  I do have some UI changes to handle which I expect to take no more then a 3-5 days total whenever I get the chance and can work them in.  One of the things I do differently then most is get the users involved earlier rather then later, I feel this only creates a stronger program.

  It is going to be a while before Evolution can blow NPC Designer out of the water, NPC Designer has some maturity now and is a very stable system.  What Evolution will do, is allow for a huge amount of data to be quickly added to the system.  I feel Evolution will be the first total package solution with Interface, Functionality and Data all moving in a single direction.  While other companies may not feel the pressure to release software, I personally do.. I need good software for my game now, not next year.


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 28, 2006)

Is this a personal project, something you are getting paid to do/make money off of?


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## Vascant (Jun 28, 2006)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Is this a personal project, something you are getting paid to do/make money off of?




  I am not being paid by anyone and I have not decided if going to sell it or what yet.  I tried doing NPC Designer as a free product but that didn't go so well.  While I don't need the money I will use a price tag to get better discussions and feedback.

  When I start a new project it has to have certain programming challanges for to appeal to me, be fun, enjoyable, relaxing and most of all to keep my interest.  So back when NPC Designer was at Update 125, I started the design work for what you know as Evolution.  With NPC Designer the goal was quality stat blocks, with Evolution I am aiming at quality interfaces to work with, more data then anyone can handle and functionality never before seen.


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## Vascant (Jul 3, 2006)

The next screen shot of sorts comes in a different way..
While some of Evolution is nothing more then whats been done in other applications to include my own, one still has to repeat the same steps and accomplish being able to put out a stat block.  As you can see blow I have started to pull the information from the Interfaces that been shown with screen shots.

What makes this test noteworthy is what you don't see.  The data originated from LST Formatted files and the Code Generators were used to create all of the Evolution script files. Then with a few clicks and a press of a buttton, the system created a nice clean (start of one) stat block.

Male Demon (Balor) 
CE Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil) 
Init +0 
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +12 
Spd 40 ft., Fly 90 ft. 
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft. 
Base Atk +20; Grp +24 

Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th) 
1/day - Fire Storm (DC 18), Implosion (DC 19) At will - Blasphemy (DC 17), Dispel Magic (Greater) (DC 16), Dominate Monster (DC 19), Insanity (DC 17), Power Word Stun (DC 18), Telekinesis (DC 15), Teleport (Greater) (DC 17), Unholy Aura (DC 18) 

Ability Str 36, Dex 32, Con 26, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26. 
Feats Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Telekinesis), Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Focus (Longsword) 

Skills Bluff +31 (+23 ranks,+8 cha), Concentration +31 (+23 ranks,+8 con), Diplomacy +31 (+23 ranks,+8 cha), Hide +34 (+23 ranks,+11 dex), Intimidate +31 (+23 ranks,+8 cha), Knowledge (Local) +30 (+23 ranks,+7 int), Knowledge (The Planes) +30 (+23 ranks,+7 int), Listen +38 (+23 ranks, +7 wis,+8 Demon (Balor)), Move Silently +34 (+23 ranks,+11 dex), Search +30 (+23 ranks,+7 int), Sense Motive +30 (+23 ranks,+7 wis), Spellcraft +30 (+23 ranks,+7 int), Spot +38 (+23 ranks, +7 wis,+8 Demon (Balor)),Use Magic Device +31 (+23 ranks,+8 cha)


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## Vascant (Jul 10, 2006)

It is quite clear from the ENnie Nominations that software has very little place in gaming so I am closing this product down from a public stand point.  Thanks for the interesting and wonderful experience.


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## Jai Kel (Jul 10, 2006)

Huh?  What?

I was watching this thread with great interest...


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## kingpaul (Jul 10, 2006)

I have to echo Vascant's comments. I was rather surprised that none of the software pieces got a nod.


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## Vascant (Jul 10, 2006)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> I have to echo Vascant's comments. I was rather surprised that none of the software pieces got a nod.




In her own way, my wife put things in perspective for me...

Think of this as like "Best Action Movie" and the nominations are....

Along came Polly
Must love dogs
50 first dates

Going into this, I had one concern.. the huge following that PCGen must have at this point of maturity and figured them to be "the one to beat".  As Paul pointed out, this isn't about any 1 product this is about the mindset of the industry because all of us software developers go thru the same motions, years to design and develop followed by more years to turn that vision into a stable and mature piece of software.  In an age when more laptops and computers are at the gaming table, this years ENnies have commited a great shame in my opinion, software is not a viable accessory.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Jul 10, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> ...software is not a viable accessory.




BULLSH*T!!!

I game using a laptop, PDFs of books, electronic dice rollers, and a HDTV as a battlemat. Vascant, I'm both surprised and disappointed that you are dropping Evolutions. I for one was looking forward to it.

NPC Designer has been a godsend to me, and I was very much looking forward to your next little gem.


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 10, 2006)

I think there is a bias against software products being perceived as "real gaming stuff".

It's quite odd really, given the fact that the sales levels (and dollars involved) in _Dundjinni_ and _CC Pro_ blow virtually every other non WotC or Paizo product out of the water.

But discussions of a book that sell 5,000 copies or less - and .pdfs that sell a few hundred at most - gets primo forum space to discuss them while hardcore tabletop RPG computer accessories are banished to a sub-topic. 

Generally speaking, the mere existence of this forum to discuss utilities such as these and not on the main discussion forum itself speaks volumes on its own.

It's one thing to banish a discussion of WoW to the software section; a discussion of CCPro3, Dundjinni or utils of this kind deserves the exposure of the general forum.

If I started a discussion of NWN on the main forum, it would probably be banished here - notwithstanding the fact that NWN is D&D roll your own 3.0 - (about to be 3.5 with NWN2) and can be played online with a DM moderating play in more or les exactly the same way as happens in traditional play.  Fantasy Grounds? Even more so.

I think it is a mistake and contributes to the bias against computer products for something like the ENnies.

My suggestion is that the ENnies create a separate gaming software award category for 2007.


----------



## Mercule (Jul 10, 2006)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> BULLSH*T!!!




Ditto.

My dollar expenditures since December have been very nearly equal between gaming software (CMP datasets and the new CC3) and gaming books.  Granted, some of that is because I've back-filled my collection datasets to match the D&D books I own.

Still, I'd gladly purchase a dataset for each and every book I buy.  In a way, software has become so significant to the way I prep my game that there is an added level of legitimacy to a book that has a dataset, in much the same way (though, to a lesser extent) that the WotC name adds legitimacy to a product.

Edit:  I'll also add that I've purchased more software products to support my d20 and fantasy games than I have *ALL OTHER* non-WotC products combined.


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## Vascant (Jul 10, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> It's quite odd really, given the fact that the sales levels (and dollars involved) in _Dundjinni_ and _CC Pro_ blow virtually every other non WotC or Paizo product out of the water.
> 
> .....
> 
> My suggestion is that the ENnies create a separate gaming software award category for 2007.




While I can speak for other products, NPC Designer has sold over 3400 to date so no matter what the ENnies may think or state.. I view it as a success.

I do think the damage has been done though, I was given more then enough warning to keep my pride intact and not enter the ENnies.  Next year even fewer will enter, given the time it takes to create software some will probably not even dare attempt.

I do agree completely about the biased nature of the forums, a while back I tried to promote a seperate forum for gaming software applications but it barely was heard.  Evolution alone has been a year in design and functionality coding plus another 6 months now into the project itself, finally reaching a stable alpha version for testers.  I expected at the very least another 18 months until I would be happy with it.


----------



## Vascant (Jul 10, 2006)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> I game using a laptop, PDFs of books, electronic dice rollers, and a HDTV as a battlemat. Vascant, I'm both surprised and disappointed that you are dropping Evolutions. I for one was looking forward to it.




  At present I am only closing it to the public, the Alpha Testers are still getting their versions as we work towards the milestones.  After all this did not change my needs to for good software, just the extent of the hassles and hoops I am going to jump thru.  Besides, there isn't much that relaxes me more then a good day of coding   I have not let down NPC Designer users yet nor do I plan on starting now.


----------



## Elodan (Jul 10, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> At present I am only closing it to the public, the Alpha Testers are still getting their versions as we work towards the milestones.  After all this did not change my needs to for good software, just the extent of the hassles and hoops I am going to jump thru.  Besides, there isn't much that relaxes me more then a good day of coding   I have not let down NPC Designer users yet nor do I plan on starting now.





Color me confused.  I bought NPC Designer and was really looking forward to getting my hands on Evolution.  Are you saying, I'm never going to be able to use/buy it?


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## Ruined (Jul 10, 2006)

Elodan said:
			
		

> Color me confused.  I bought NPC Designer and was really looking forward to getting my hands on Evolution.  Are you saying, I'm never going to be able to use/buy it?




My solid guess would be that you will see Evolution down the road just as planned. You just may not see much about it here. Today's a bad day, as you can imagine. If you periodically check in at rpgattitude.com and I'm sure you'll see news about it. I'm eagerly looking forward to its release, myself.


----------



## Vascant (Jul 11, 2006)

Elodan said:
			
		

> Color me confused.  I bought NPC Designer and was really looking forward to getting my hands on Evolution.  Are you saying, I'm never going to be able to use/buy it?




Ruined is correct, of course he is also one of the Alpha testers so we pretty much talk on a daily basis.  Work and progress on Evolution is constantly moving forward but I am going to change where I update information and such.  I will probably handle Beta testing much like I did the Alpha just on a larger scale, personally contacting users who have expressed an interest in being involved.  I do promise Evolution will be completed, as intended and on schedule but what I don't promise is a public release.  It could end up being a private thing between 30-50 users because I still accomplish my established goal of creating good software.  At the present moment I am working with 3 Alpha Testers and have about 3-4 weeks more of coding before I think about increasing that number.


----------



## rom90125 (Jul 11, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Ruined is correct, of course he is also one of the Alpha testers so we pretty much talk on a daily basis.  Work and progress on Evolution is constantly moving forward but I am going to change where I update information and such.  I will probably handle Beta testing much like I did the Alpha just on a larger scale, personally contacting users who have expressed an interest in being involved.  I do promise Evolution will be completed, as intended and on schedule but what I don't promise is a public release.  It could end up being a private thing between 30-50 users because I still accomplish my established goal of creating good software.  At the present moment I am working with 3 Alpha Testers and have about 3-4 weeks more of coding before I think about increasing that number.




First and foremost, I'm glad I can still hope to one day see Evolution (via RPGAttitude).  With that said, I'm not one for etiquette or refined arguments, so I'll just put it in words everyone can understand....

Forget the Ennies and Forget the judges.  

I had no doubt NPCD would be one of the nominations and the fact it is not goes a long way towards showing the biased 'good ole boy' network they have going on here...

I guess I should have seen the writing on the wall when everyone got their panties in a bunch because NPCD had numerous 5-star reviews in a short period of time.  They screamed 'foul' without actually looking at the product for themselves.  Don't dare question the golden calf, or we'll begin a smear campaign just to show you who really runs the show.

God forbid you actually have a useful product or even a useful comment if you don't have a 1,000,000,000 post count under your name.

The stench from the hypocrisy of it all makes me want to retch.  I have nothing but the best wishes for those that were nominated this year.  They did nothing wrong and I look forward to purchasing some of their works (in pdf format no less) but my respect for this site has reached an all time low (yes, I'm still waiting for my CS account to be reactivated since the crash.  BUSH LEAGUE sht)


----------



## schporto (Jul 11, 2006)

Vascant,
I'm sorry you weren't nominated.  I am a software developer.  I am well impressed by NPC Designer.  I haven't purchased it, and have only tried the demo (currently running straight from a module).  I wonder if the judges missed what it really does (smartly choosing weapons, feats, skills).  In the end I agree with you software really does warrant it's own category.  But if not enough are submitted they can't.  I think the better argument is we need better, and more software.
Thank you for the work you have done.  I personally will continue to follow Evolution and hope to see it when you feel it is ready.
BTW - congratulations on the success that NPC Designer has seen.  I know that is a good feeling.
-cpd


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 11, 2006)

rom90125 said:
			
		

> Forget the Ennies and Forget the judges.
> 
> I had no doubt NPCD would be one of the nominations and the fact it is not goes a long way towards showing the biased 'good ole boy' network they have going on here...




I'd second this, don't let the "official stance" of the ENWorld clique stop you from the fans that are here, or a mass release. ENWorld is a site with lots of good folks, but there's more than their fair share of self-righteousness also, so take it with a grain of salt. Concentrate on your fans rather than the noise.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 11, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Going into this, I had one concern.. the huge following that PCGen must have at this point of maturity and figured them to be "the one to beat".



Wow, never considered us as the "one to beat". Of course, I'm on the inside looking out, not outside looking int. 


			
				Vascant said:
			
		

> As Paul pointed out, this isn't about any 1 product



Correct. While I'm biased and wanted PCGen to get the nod, I was floored that none did. As has been stated, there are more and more gamers using computer tools (pre-, in-, and post-game).


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 11, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> My suggestion is that the ENnies create a separate gaming software award category for 2007.



The ENnies have been evolving since they started, with categories getting created and collapsed into others. A separate category, IMBO (B=Biased), makes sense.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 11, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Next year even fewer will enter, given the time it takes to create software some will probably not even dare attempt.



That I'm not so sure of. There's always going to be those that see creating the software as a challenge, and an enjoyable one at that.


			
				Vascant said:
			
		

> I do agree completely about the biased nature of the forums, a while back I tried to promote a seperate forum for gaming software applications but it barely was heard.



I honestly don't recall that happening. I agree with the sentiment.


----------



## Vascant (Jul 11, 2006)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> That I'm not so sure of. There's always going to be those that see creating the software as a challenge, and an enjoyable one at that.
> .....
> 
> I honestly don't recall that happening. I agree with the sentiment.




Watch, we are currently in a software spike though not entered there were tons of new applications this year.  Just like everything else in this world, it goes in cycles.



http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=142251


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## Vascant (Jul 11, 2006)

rom90125 said:
			
		

> Forget the Ennies and Forget the judges.




To a point you are correct because thru this I myself have learned that the ENnies are not a reflection of excellence in role playing games, they are simple "What 5 people like".  I think one email said it best and comes from a person inside the ENnies, "Perhaps this year's crop of judges was jaded on software, or really focused on tabletop role-playing accessories (hence the flip-mat and minis nominations).".  This does best describe the results, the judging panel was biased against software or the judges/ENnies do not view software as a part of tabletop role-playing accessories.  I have my current laugh, 5 judges said software and (Biased) NPC Designer are not part of gaming in their eyes and yet I wonder how many nominated products sold 29 (34 now since started writing posts and email replies) copies since yesterday at noon?  In retrospect what is success? Is it the thousands of customers who enjoy your work, 5 judges who seemed to have very little understanding of the industry or the ranking your product as compared to others...I got 600+ emails last night (No don't expect a reply) but I did go thru and read some and one said it best, "each week your software saves me countless hours, hours that I can use to spend time with my daughter, wife or gaming more".  I have read statements like this before but at this moment, it was what I needed to read because that is success, no product in the ENnies can say they give time back to people every week.  It being my 40th birthday yesterday, time suddenly has new meaning from all the old jokes I heard.


----------



## andargor (Jul 11, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> It is quite clear from the ENnie Nominations that software has very little place in gaming so I am closing this product down from a public stand point.  Thanks for the interesting and wonderful experience.




Hey man, sorry that you feel that way about awards and such. You know, they are like the Oscars, and not like the People's Choice Awards. 

In any case, don't give up, keep up having fun coding for you and your group, and the benefits to all will come by themselves.

Cheers,

A.


----------



## rom90125 (Jul 11, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> "each week your software saves me countless hours, hours that I can use to spend time with my daughter, wife or gaming more"




Quoted for truth.  I populated an entire Orc Citadel in less than 10 minutes this past weekend.  Granted it took me another 30 minutes to factor in non-OGL PrCs, but I didn't have to worry about inconsistent data in the base statblock created by NPCD...I merely added in modifiers as they pertained to the PrC in question and sat down at the table ready to release an Orc horde on my group.

Please keep the Evolution work going.  I'm still planning on purchasing a copy when it is released.  

Hell think bigger Vas...there is definitely room in the Campaign Management niche.  Personally, I would love to see what type of software suite you could come up with to manage/run entire campaigns, ala DM Genie.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 11, 2006)

Oh, please.  If you need the ENNIES to validate your product, then you need to reexamine your plans.  I was interested in this product, but if its going to get yanked around because of a perceived slight by a small segment of the gaming world - real or imagined - its not going to be a product that I can count on.

See ya.


----------



## Vascant (Jul 11, 2006)

andargor said:
			
		

> Hey man, sorry that you feel that way about awards and such. You know, they are like the Oscars, and not like the People's Choice Awards.




And my view is the reverse, they are like the People's Choice and nothing like the Oscars.  At least in the Oscars I can pick 3 of the 5 nominations.  These films stand out, even if I don't like or care for them as a responsible educated adult you can still see the work that stands out from the crowd.  

I have been told that by forcing Judges to register that it could have effected the selection process but my arguement concerning this is simple, the rules state that the product the judges are provided must be the one provided to the general public.  Not one I had to go in and change the security to allow an open registration code, besides I don't like the ENnies even giving the idea they support software piracy by forcing software developers to remove security just to be nominated.  NPC Designer isn't cracked nor is there a key gen for it at this time so I am not going to help make it easier for them to do it.  Returning to our Oscar's comparison, movies provided to the Oscars are clearly marked as being for the Oscars, you see the caption for this during the movie but it doesn't effect the judging or nominations, "responsible educated adult".


----------



## Vascant (Jul 11, 2006)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Oh, please.  If you need the ENNIES to validate your product, then you need to reexamine your plans.  I was interested in this product, but if its going to get yanked around because of a perceived slight by a small segment of the gaming world - real or imagined - its not going to be a product that I can count on.




Need, no.. As I told my wife last night, that was my first mistake when I set it as a goal.  As far as yanked no, I just changed my plan to things I can control.  I enjoy coding for my current users and see no reason for that to change.  If you don't understand setting a goal and not achieving it, well I really can't help you there.  I made several mistakes with NPC Designer, it started out as a neat software project for me and some friends.. it should have stayed there.  Thats why I am pulling Evolution before it gets out of control like NPC Designer and keeping it between me and friends. It is also why I am not pissed or angry about the ENnies (Stunned yes!) but more pissed at myself for the decision to do it and letting NPC Designer get this out of control/hand.


----------



## Vascant (Jul 11, 2006)

rom90125 said:
			
		

> Quoted for truth.  I populated an entire Orc Citadel in less than 10 minutes this past weekend.  Granted it took me another 30 minutes to factor in non-OGL PrCs, but I didn't have to worry about inconsistent data in the base statblock created by NPCD...I merely added in modifiers as they pertained to the PrC in question and sat down at the table ready to release an Orc horde on my group.




Yep and thats what I forgot this year.  Think this year's goal as a person will be to realize you can't change the world of gaming *chuckles*.  Maybe I can make it better for 50 people though   Anyways, I want to try and get out an Alpha Update today before Ruined kills me.. hehe


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 11, 2006)

OK, that I can understand.  Certainly, this is no way to get rich!    Or really do much more than keep you in beer money, for that matter.


----------



## rom90125 (Jul 11, 2006)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Or really do much more than keep you in beer money, for that matter.




Nah, that is what players are for...to keep the DM from getting bent because his/her beer supply has run dry


----------



## andargor (Jul 11, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> And my view is the reverse, they are like the People's Choice and nothing like the Oscars.  At least in the Oscars I can pick 3 of the 5 nominations.  These films stand out, even if I don't like or care for them as a responsible educated adult you can still see the work that stands out from the crowd.




Bah, shows you how much I know or care about award shows...   

Happy coding!


----------



## kyloss (Jul 11, 2006)

Color me curious about evolution, since I was one of the clueless few who hadn't heard about npcd, but now I think I may have to pick it up if it's that quick and consistent. I need any help I can get to make running easier as I tend to be a bit... scattered.


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## kingpaul (Jul 11, 2006)

kyloss said:
			
		

> I need any help I can get to make running easier as I tend to be a bit... scattered.



Have you given PCGen a try? *ducks to hide for hijacking Vas' thread*


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## Anurien (Jul 11, 2006)

Out of interest, where were the 3400 copies of NPC Designer sold? ENWorld? Gaming convention?


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## Anurien (Jul 11, 2006)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Have you given PCGen a try? *ducks to hide for hijacking Vas' thread*




Shameless, such behaviour is reprehensible 

(try RPGXplorer too!)


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## Vascant (Jul 11, 2006)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> OK, that I can understand.  Certainly, this is no way to get rich!    Or really do much more than keep you in beer money, for that matter.




Thats kind of funny, there is a story about this between my wife and I.  When this started it was to be free (I am retired already and not looking for a job) but getting testers was turning out to be challanging.  So some users and publishers all suggested the samething, put a price tag on it and you will see a big difference.. At the time,I thought they were joking.  After talking more with my wife and others the end price they all came up with was 20 dollars, I thought was a bit high so to make my wife happy thats why the price is always 20 dollars and to make me feel users are getting their value, always on sale at $15.00.  With that move comes goals (I love goals), the idea if I could sell 40 in the first month and 200 in the first year I would be happy and I agreed with my wife the money would be donated to our local homeless shelter.  If I recall 40 was broken on the second day and 200 in the first week, things have been very constistant since then at a few sales a day.  

I also don't drink, hard to code while drunk so I don't drink.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Jul 11, 2006)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Have you given PCGen a try? *ducks to hide for hijacking Vas' thread*



If only PCGen wasn't as slow as frozen molasses...and could randomly generate NPCs.


----------



## Vascant (Jul 11, 2006)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Have you given PCGen a try? *ducks to hide for hijacking Vas' thread*





*laughs*

Yes I sure did, after all I needed to understand it before the Code Generators could properly convert the data for something useful   I have said it before and will say it again, PCGen has perhaps the most worked form of digital data in d20.


----------



## Vascant (Jul 11, 2006)

Anurien said:
			
		

> Out of interest, where were the 3400 copies of NPC Designer sold? ENWorld? Gaming convention?




  While most sales are from my sight thats also not entirely true, I know quite a few people who run hobby shops and involved in the RPGA who have really helped get the word out and develop interest.  You add that with some kind words from Mr Cook and a bunch of WotC's current R&D staff, numbers pick up fast.  

  I think on retail outlets products get lost, a good example of Item Designer which I coded to just experiment with the market.  I released it exclusively on ENGS for the first 4 months and it had 20 sales total and of those 4 were during the only sale I have ran at half off during GM's Day. (Note: I did not sell it on my site even during this time).  Since selling it on my site it has sold an addition 108 copies in the last month.  I do not think ENGS is at fault here, I think it is the problem of all Retail Outlets, products get lost.  I also run a very aggressive release schedule for the software, which in turn keeps things moving in a forward  motion.  I also am in a very different market then character generators because there people have a choice, there are quite a few and depending on the flavor you like.. you can find something that works for you.  I deal with NPC Generation, so for a DM it isn't a matter of if you need it but instead.. when you will need it.  I promise you, you can make 5 dollars an hour at your job and it will still save you the 15 dollars each week in prep time.  Thats why you will always see me thank the users of NPC Designer because I run 3 sessions a week and NPC Designer is critical for me during prep time.  As complexed as you want to get, it is ready for you.


----------



## Vascant (Jul 11, 2006)

Anurien said:
			
		

> Shameless, such behaviour is reprehensible




Used it, not a big fan of Explorer so the Explorer feel of it doesn't do anything for me.  I am like a bad user though because I want faster releases of software, so the idea of waiting for months for an update just is very unappealing.  I do think RPGXplorer could and may be a force to deal with in the future though, after all what I like or don't like means little in the scope of an industry.  Thats why on my time schedule for Evolution is to be where you are at come the end of the year, Epic and Psionics finished.  Personally I really, really hope you guys try to tackle NPC Generation soon, I am sure you will be creative and come up with things I didn't think of or build upon things I did do.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Jul 12, 2006)

FWIW, we would never remove copy protection for any judge - for any reason.

I do think that the sheer number of products inundanting the judges makes evaluation of software difficult for them.

I expect that an easy to view product - 10 to 15 minute browse the pages - is pretty much where they are at for nominations.  Actual awards - I expect it's a little more involved - but still. Can't tell me they are reading every single product like a copy editor.

The solution is to expand the judges pool with a separate group for software judging. It just takes a lot more time to review these sorts of products.

The ENnies are not only about external validation of one's work - they are well on their way to becoming what amounts to a significant commercial advantage. It's an Editor's Choice / People's Choice and Oscar for gaming all rolled into one.  There really isn't anything else like it, so to just shrug it off is not required Vascant.

We have a commercial RPG accessory in development and I shudder to think what a ten minute view would do for it.


----------



## Vascant (Jul 12, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> FWIW, we would never remove copy protection for any judge - for any reason.
> 
> I do think that the sheer number of products inundanting the judges makes evaluation of software difficult for them.
> 
> ...




We agree about the copy protection, that was why I emailed the submission cordinator before hand about that very question to ensure it would not be a problem (I figure if it was going to be then no need to even enter)

We agree on what the ENnies are though, a rather large commercial advantage though this industry still manages to stun me.  Since noon yesterday has been the largest amount of sales ever in the last year.  NPC Designer and Item Designer have combined total of over 150 sales.

Funny you brought up the 10 minute review, I kind of kick myself for thinking the ENnies would be different.  I refuse to give out review copies for 1 reason, I do not think someone can properly review NPC Designer without really dedicated some time to learning about it.  Heck I learn new things about NPC Designer every week and I created it.. *chuckles*

Just time to face the music, ENWorld really doesn't get the whole software side of this industry.  I didn't lose anything when I wasn't on here before and won't lose anything that I have left, because the people in this industry have a very interesting habit.  They are more willing to purchase something directly from a RPG Company then from a retailer.  So nothing really changes for me, just a regroup and back to basics so to speak 

I do wish you guys luck


----------



## Mercule (Jul 12, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Just time to face the music, ENWorld really doesn't get the whole software side of this industry.




Which is a sad, sad statement, given that the whole core of ENWorld's existance is as a digital community.


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## Vascant (Jul 12, 2006)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Which is a sad, sad statement, given that the whole core of ENWorld's existance is as a digital community.




Nothing to be sad about really, it is just ENWorld and clearly not the entire or even a majority of the industry.  So I tried something new, the ENnies, and lost.  Nothing ventured nothing gained.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 12, 2006)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Which is a sad, sad statement, given that the whole core of ENWorld's existance is as a digital community.




ALso amusing considering the excessive love PDF's get here, that actual software gets kicked to the basement.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 12, 2006)

Maybe this is a crazy statement...but maybe, just maybe, the judges felt that there were other, better products out there?

Hell, I've tried NPC Designed and I love it, and obviously many others have, too. But that doesn't mean there's not going to be better things out there.

And I'm sorry that you didn't get the nomination you hoped for, but cancelling THIS project because you didn't get nominated looks petty and makes it seem like you're only doing these things for the recognition of the ENnies.


----------



## Anurien (Jul 12, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> We have a commercial RPG accessory in development and I shudder to think what a ten minute view would do for it.




This sounds intriguing....what does this accessory do?


----------



## talmar (Jul 12, 2006)

Vas...All I can say is I'm sorry you didn't get nominated.  As soon as I found out about all the Ennies crap I went out bought NPCD to show my support for you and your outstanding program.

I use more than a handful of electronic aides and for anybody to say they aren't  gaming accessories or aides simply is blind to gaming in modern millenium.

I hope to see Evolution one day as I'm sure it'll be as revolutionary as NPCD is.


----------



## Vascant (Jul 12, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Maybe this is a crazy statement...but maybe, just maybe, the judges felt that there were other, better products out there?
> 
> Hell, I've tried NPC Designed and I love it, and obviously many others have, too. But that doesn't mean there's not going to be better things out there.
> 
> And I'm sorry that you didn't get the nomination you hoped for, but cancelling THIS project because you didn't get nominated looks petty and makes it seem like you're only doing these things for the recognition of the ENnies.




I guess you are not understanding what some of us see as the issue, it is not just NPC Designer but in fact no software was even given a nod.  While I will agree the mini of the horse and ride, wow.  What I looked were all the nominations compared to what the different software developers offered, what can I say.,.. 5 people have an opinion which seems to be rather strange.  ENnies for me no longer stand for Excellence in gaming but rather, 5 opinions on free products.  Then again, thats my opinion   We all have one of them.

Evolution itself is not cancelled just the time I put to other sites and keeping things updated.  Alpha testers are still getting there update today and we are still talking on a daily basis about features and functionalities.  The last 2 days have really been great, in fact some of the better coding days I have had in a good few months.  From this point forward I am not going to worry about selling or press releases, just keep myself concerned with the people who seem to appreciate the software I develop.  There is a good chance on August 1st (The 1 year mark for selling NPC Designer) I just may get out of the selling business completely.  I have a great group of people already involved in the Alpha testing and another list of NPC Designer users for the beta testing.  The person above who questioned why I do this is right, why do I do this?  I just love to code and want better software for my game.  I started with that idea but some where along the line got a little lost, I am not so lost anymore.  Am I doing this because of the ENnies or Enworld, nope.. doing it because I really want to do what I love.

On the wizard's digital forum a group of us software developers and some customers had an excellent discussion about what competition brings to this industry from a software stand point.  It does a lot of good, just as does recognition for hard work.  No matter what I am going to wake up every day for the rest of my life and code or create software, it is the only thing that relaxes me and keeps me at balance at a personal level.  I need that challange and drive to succeed.  Is that bad?  Don't know and don't care, but it is me and who I am.  This is why most NPC Designer customers have nothing to worry about, I can stop selling it today and next week there will be an update for it.  Why, because I use it because even if I no longer sell it I still feel I owe it to my current customers to make it better whenever I can.  I have wanted to get out from selling since about the 4th month, I hate it but everytime I get to the point of doing it, someone manages to convince me to hold on a little longer.  As my wife said last night, I am getting old and retired.. time to take it easy.


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## Vascant (Jul 12, 2006)

talmar said:
			
		

> I hope to see Evolution one day as I'm sure it'll be as revolutionary as NPCD is.




  The Alpha is going smooth, currently have about 200+ monsters in the system and now working on fine tuning things and reworking some of the code generators to provide data changes where needed.  I also ran the FRCS dataset thru the converter last night and really pleased with what I have seen thus far.  If we keep pushing at the current rate, I see no reason why in August we don't move to beta.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 12, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> I guess you are not understanding what some of us see as the issue, it is not just NPC Designer but in fact no software was even given a nod.  While I will agree the mini of the horse and ride, wow.  What I looked were all the nominations compared to what the different software developers offered, what can I say.,.. 5 people have an opinion which seems to be rather strange.  ENnies for me no longer stand for Excellence in gaming but rather, 5 opinions on free products.  Then again, thats my opinion   We all have one of them.




Obviously can't argue an opinion. 

However, the best way to fix the problem(beyond getting a software only catagory put in...which I agree should be done for next year), is to vote for new judges. If the judges opinions don't mesh with yours...well, vote for new ones. There's always a very diverse group that run to be a judge, and even though repeat judges are fairly common...I expect it wouldn't be too difficult to find judges that see the industry like you, and many others, do.

I AM glad to hear you aren't just stopping on Evolution. Even if it doesn't end up for the public, it looks like another amazing program.


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## Vascant (Jul 12, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> However, the best way to fix the problem(beyond getting a software only catagory put in...which I agree should be done for next year), is to vote for new judges. If the judges opinions don't mesh with yours...well, vote for new ones. There's always a very diverse group that run to be a judge, and even though repeat judges are fairly common...I expect it wouldn't be too difficult to find judges that see the industry like you, and many others, do.




Actually the change has to go deeper then just, new judges.  Needs to be run like a firing squad in some ways.  Though aimed at awards and not a victim.
Each catagory should have a list of areas that are graded on a scale of 1 to 10, I would suggest each catagory having 5-10 different areas/criteria/elements to be judged.

Now we need 10 judges, when a product is judged by all 10 of the judges we initially toss the highest and lowest ones giving us 8 remaining.  From that 8 randomly select 5 and add up the score and that becomes the product's score.  We take of the 5 highest scoring products for each catagory and those are your nominations.

Yes I know I am very biased about NPC Designer but I think I have good reason, you can search everywhere and the idea of an Intelligent Generation System does not exist and in most cases it just a fantasy.  This is why I am taking Evolution away from view by the public because it is freaking scary based on what it can already accomplish, I have a current customer base who understands what I am doing.. What else do I need?

Nope, if I want my ENnie I can go to Monte Cook's site and read his review, after all he probably knows more about this industry then 5 judges who's only credit is a combined 100k in posts.


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 12, 2006)

Anurien said:
			
		

> This sounds intriguing....what does this accessory do?




Sorry, NDA and all that. When we are ready to talk about it (and it will be quite a while before that happens) we'll make a *lot* of noise then and I'm sure you'll hear about it.


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 12, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Actually the change has to go deeper then just, new judges.




I don't think the question is new judges; I think it's a matter of more judges, with groups partitioned off to deal with certain categories of submissions.

The existing ones have too much on their plate, imo, being all things to all products.


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## Anurien (Jul 13, 2006)

Hmmm, well whatever it is I'm sure it's going to be good. Which might worry me, should I be worried? Can you tell me that?


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## Vascant (Jul 13, 2006)

Anurien said:
			
		

> Hmmm, well whatever it is I'm sure it's going to be good. Which might worry me, should I be worried? Can you tell me that?




Given what they do, there are a couple of options for them as far as software to release.  So only people that need to worry are those who have invested a lot of time and money into something.  The rest of gaming will enjoy a new product join the ranks.


Actually you guys probably have a lot of tools needed to create an incredible virtual table.


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## talmar (Jul 13, 2006)

Personally, I think there simply needs to be a completely new category.  Best d20 _*electronic*_ accessory.

I mean come on...it's 2006, half way to 2007...we live and exist in an electronic age.

There are so many electronic accessories that can be used today.  RPGX, NPC Designer, PC Gen, eTools, Dunjinni, CC3, d20SRD.org, DMGenie, and the list goes on.


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## Vascant (Jul 13, 2006)

talmar said:
			
		

> Personally, I think there simply needs to be a completely new category.  Best d20 _*electronic*_ accessory.
> 
> I mean come on...it's 2006, half way to 2007...we live and exist in an electronic age.
> 
> There are so many electronic accessories that can be used today.  RPGX, NPC Designer, PC Gen, eTools, Dunjinni, CC3, d20SRD.org, DMGenie, and the list goes on.




Actually after looking over the "Nomination are up" thread, makes more sense just to not enter or get involved.  If you look over the Industry pretty much every software company manages their own forums and do rather well with a certain level of activity.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 13, 2006)

talmar said:
			
		

> Personally, I think there simply needs to be a completely new category.  Best d20 _*electronic*_ accessory.
> 
> I mean come on...it's 2006, half way to 2007...we live and exist in an electronic age.
> 
> There are so many electronic accessories that can be used today.  RPGX, NPC Designer, PC Gen, eTools, Dunjinni, CC3, d20SRD.org, DMGenie, and the list goes on.




The problem being, how many come out every year. Need at least 9 for them to have a catagory. Also, as the other thread mentions, you need to define catagories. Is Best Accessory to be decided based on how useful something is to a game? (And if so, can any particular mini ever win?) or is it based on cuteness or some other esoteric value?


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## Vascant (Jul 13, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> The problem being, how many come out every year. Need at least 9 for them to have a catagory. Also, as the other thread mentions, you need to define catagories. Is Best Accessory to be decided based on how useful something is to a game? (And if so, can any particular mini ever win?) or is it based on cuteness or some other esoteric value?




Or the reverse as in this year, no way for software to win.  I am however to a point now that I really don't care what happened this year or even will happen next year.  I develop d20 software, while as far as the ENnies are concerned thats a bad thing at present so I will just avoid it all.  This is not a bad thing anyways, I can use that time to get more coding done  

You are incorrect though, the problem is not the numbers that are released because it comes down to having judges who can see the quality of a products work.  Everything makes sense as to what happened in the ENnies, with the mini's and the tiles or counters a judge could quickly without even a thought see all of it's worth and in some cases workmanship, that mount and rider mini is pretty nice.  Heck, I would have nominated it.  Any product like RPGXplorer, PCGen, NPC Designer, CC3 and the countless others would have or will qualify next year forces a judge to look deeper, he has to think maybe even learn a little.  This is why I claim entering them in the first place was my error, because this very reasoning is why I do not provide free review copies.  (Only exception to this would be someone like Mr Cooper, it is quite clear he is not afraid of the details) 

Case in point, the current debate over where Shackled City should be slotted.  This is a very good instance of judges not really learning about the material they are judging.  Shackled City is a series of Adventures to take a party from 1st-20th level which is now refered to as an Adventure Path, The adventures take place in and around the city named Cauldon which is by default established in the Greyhawk Campaign Setting.  They even give helpful advice for placing it within other official settings.  So by the product's own wording and usage, it establishes Shackled City is not a setting.  

ENnies, quickest way for 5 people to get a ton of free products and not be held accountable.


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 14, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Given what they do, there are a couple of options for them as far as software to release.  So only people that need to worry are those who have invested a lot of time and money into something.  The rest of gaming will enjoy a new product join the ranks.
> 
> Actually you guys probably have a lot of tools needed to create an incredible virtual table.




Well, DLA is a little smallish as CRPG studios go. (Though Obsidian's NWN2 team is not that much bigger).

By RPG standards? I'd say we're pretty well staffed - and yes it would be fair to say that we have a fair number of tools at our disposal.  

Talk is cheap. Let's wait till we get there.


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## Vascant (Jul 14, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Well, DLA is a little smallish as CRPG studios go. (Though Obsidian's NWN2 team is not that much bigger).
> 
> By RPG standards? I'd say we're pretty well staffed - and yes it would be fair to say that we have a fair number of tools at our disposal.
> 
> Talk is cheap. Let's wait till we get there.




I guess my question is not so much what but WHY?!? 

*Chuckles*

In my mind it probably will be something very interesting.  I do wish you guys luck.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 14, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> I develop d20 software, while as far as the ENnies are concerned thats a bad thing at present so I will just avoid it all.




THAT, makes no sense. Again, is it so hard to believe that the judges just felt the other products were better? I'm sorry if that's impossible to believe, but that's obviously the case. It doesn't mean software is a BAD thing, it just means the judges felt that of the software entered, there were other, BETTER things.

If that destroys your ego, well, its not their fault.



> You are incorrect though, the problem is not the numbers that are released because it comes down to having judges who can see the quality of a products work.  Everything makes sense as to what happened in the ENnies, with the mini's and the tiles or counters a judge could quickly without even a thought see all of it's worth and in some cases workmanship, that mount and rider mini is pretty nice.  Heck, I would have nominated it.  Any product like RPGXplorer, PCGen, NPC Designer, CC3 and the countless others would have or will qualify next year forces a judge to look deeper, he has to think maybe even learn a little.  This is why I claim entering them in the first place was my error, because this very reasoning is why I do not provide free review copies.  (Only exception to this would be someone like Mr Cooper, it is quite clear he is not afraid of the details)




And how do you know how much time the judges spent looking at each product? You're only assuming that, because you didn't get a nomination, they obviously didn't look at your product for long enough. Can you just not accept that they spent a lot of time with your product(and the other software) and STILL felt that the other products were better?



> Case in point, the current debate over where Shackled City should be slotted.  This is a very good instance of judges not really learning about the material they are judging.  Shackled City is a series of Adventures to take a party from 1st-20th level which is now refered to as an Adventure Path, The adventures take place in and around the city named Cauldon which is by default established in the Greyhawk Campaign Setting.  They even give helpful advice for placing it within other official settings.  So by the product's own wording and usage, it establishes Shackled City is not a setting.




That has nothing to do with judges not knowing the material. In fact, it has more to do with them knowing it VERY WELL. The current debate is that Shackled City fits into MORE THAN ONE catagory...and it does. The simple fact is that you CAN use Shackled City as a setting very well. Hell, I've seen it done myself, so its not some alien concept.

By this logic, a single adventure cannot be nominated for its artwork...because, obviously, that's not what its about. Its an adventure and nothing else. The art is just there to help the adventure.



> ENnies, quickest way for 5 people to get a ton of free products and not be held accountable.




And THAT is just insulting. It just goes to show that you're really simply angry you didn't get a nomination, so you're taking it out on the judges without any real reason for it. You have NO IDEA how much time they spent on your product, so you have no right to assume that just passed it over 'because software is bad'. The judges put in a TON of work for the ENnies to look at EVERYTHING in great detail. They don't just get free stuff and then randomly choose things.

Now...if you'd have gotten a nomination for your product, would you have said ANY of this at all?


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 14, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> And how do you know how much time the judges spent looking at each product? You're only assuming that, because you didn't get a nomination, they obviously didn't look at your product for long enough. Can you just not accept that they spent a lot of time with your product(and the other software) and STILL felt that the other products were better?




Ankh - while Vascant is obviously quite emotional about this matter, his concern appears to be born out of tracking the registrations that went with the software.

As he indicated, only one judge registered the software. So it's a little hard for him to accept that it was tested by all of the judges - and tested thoroughly.

If I have misunderstood the issue - Vascant can (and should) state his information on the point succinctly.


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## Vascant (Jul 14, 2006)

To be honest, it doesn't matter anymore or what I think.  After all if I am not going to do the ENnies anymore then why even discuss them.  A couple of months ago I wanted to get out of selling software and such but yeah I let my ego get the better of me and some people convinced me we should go for an ENnie.  I don't blame them and in truth I don't even blame the judges, I blame myself first and foremost because I made that decision.  No one held a gun to my head.

So don't worry, in a couple of months you won't even remember NPC Designer existed.  Consider this matter closed for me because I won't be back to read anymore


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 14, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> As he indicated, only one judge registered the software. So it's a little hard for him to accept that it was tested by all of the judges - and tested thoroughly.
> 
> If I have misunderstood the issue - Vascant can (and should) state his information on the point succinctly.




Cthulu's Librarian implies that multiple judges registered it.



			
				Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Vascant, please see my reply here, and the email I have sent you. We did evaluate NPC Designer, and regester. I have received confirmation from other judges on this, and I regestered my copy and used it.




Diaglo then said he registered it as well and tested it.



			
				Diaglo said:
			
		

> yeah my goof. when you mentioned we didn't register i thought you had sent us the faulty product. but now that i've compared titles, CL is correct. i registered your product and used it too. several times in fact.




I'd say other Judges most likely tried it out as well, though I have no proof.


On the Sunless Citadel thing, that was a misunderstanding, as noted by Rasyr in that same thread.



			
				Rasyr said:
			
		

> I have had it brought to my attention (in a very round-about manner), that the actual category name is "Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement", not "Best Campaign Setting/Setting Supplement" as the announcement flyer states.




So there ya go, FWIW.


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