# City of Heroes/Villians, Champions Online or DC Universe Online?



## Goodsport (Jan 20, 2011)

These are the three superhero-themed MMORPG's that come to mind (have I missed any other one?).

Which of these do you like the best and why?  Or if you like them all (or at least two of them), which similarities and/or differences between them do you like nonetheless? 


-G


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 21, 2011)

CoX is very, very thin. It's got a world-class character generator (seriously -- it's incredibly fun to make new characters), but the stuff you do in the tutorial is essentially the entire game, with new skins for randomized dungeons (and new layouts) and marginally different enemies to fight. Get to the level where you get your travel power, do that for a while, and you're essentially done. Couple this with an active disdain for a lot of the things superhero fans would want in a superhero game (Want a secret identity? Tough crap, they're not supported. Want a continuing relationship with an NPC? Nope, sorry, it's all figurative one night stands for you. Want to fight with your ally, Hulk/Thing style? Great, go stand in an arena and do it, because spontaneous violence is impossible) and it's hard to recommend it. CoX will be remembered as the first superhero MMO, but at some point, someone will come along and blow it out of the water with something that does a better job of emulating the genre -- and really, that won't be terribly hard.

I have not played Champions, but all my CoX playing friends who've tried it have said it's basically a slightly updated CoX. But that's just second-hand info.


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## Ghostwind (Jan 21, 2011)

I have a soft spot in my heart for CoX just because it is the first MMO I truly enjoyed and the char gen is kickass. I would love to play with different power combinations just to see how effective I could make my character. Having said that, I suspect that DCUO will completely blow both CoX and Champions right out of the water if early reports are true. Time will be the one to judge however.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 21, 2011)

Despite being a pretty hardcore WoW player (I started with MMOs with EQ1 back in 2001), I would keep a CoX account active if the fee was something reasonable like $5/month.


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## Felon (Jan 21, 2011)

I'm not sure why I would want to play a superhero MMO so I can put on khakis and a polo shirt and spend time at work in my secret ID or go out on dates--that's what The Sims is for. However, it is true that superhero games are not very immersive. Nor or any MMO's IME, and I've played quite a few. CoX is like pretty much every other MMO, which is to say there's a lot of repetitive missions/quests that have you recycling a string of hotkeyed powers in queue-based combat. Champs Online and DCU Online use a more real-time combat system that is more dynamic and exciting in nature than CoX or most MMO's, but still falls short of what you get in a non-MMO game. 

The main thing that damns all superhero MMO's to date is that they lack a physics engine, and without physics, superheroes and supervillains really aren't terribly impressive. Superheroes smash stuff. Supervillains smash even more stuff. But you can't go into an instanced mission and blast enemies through walls or chuck cars around or watch the beauty of what a handful of explosive pellets from a utility belt can do when you chuck them into a bad guy's ammo depot. You can't even tip over a chair. So, something pretty essential to larger-than-life comic-book action is lacking. 

CoX also suffers because the developers took the "City of..." part a little too literally. You don't go to anywhere particularly cool. Rather, you spend a lot of time running around layrinthine cubicle farms and abandoned buidlings designed by an insane architect who desired nothing more than to frustrate his buildings' occupants. These places were certainly never inspected by a fire marshal. Champs learned from this lesson, so you get to go to a lot more interesting locales, like army bases and spaceships. Don't know what all DCUO has to offer in this department.

In general, MMO's (which seem to go less-and-less by the term "MMORPG") just don't have the variety and polish that other games do. You see the same animations for attack executions regurgitated over and over, for instance, so don't expect Arkham Asylum's robust set of moves for your dark knight. You'll just do the same kick or punch attack a million times. Likewise, locations get recycled with only a modest amount of reskinning. 

Things you expect from other games--like cutscenes that tell a compelling, immersive story, or tricky bosses that require special tactics to beat--are rare at best. Imagine having to chase a crazed mastermind through his madhouse lair while maneuvering around obstacles that spring out and avoiding variety of fiendish booby-traps. Classic stuff, right? Now, here's the more likely scenario: you pummel each other until a health bar drops to zero. Mission complete.

MMO's are not really not about pulse-pounding adventures full of surprises and twists. They're more like Farmville, really. You log in, you grind a bit, you harvest a reward or two, and thereby make a little progress towards some goal you set for yourself. 

If they did it better, I'd still be content with it, but they don't really hit the mark yet. You look at other game genres and you see real innovation. Instead of missions being pass/fail or handing out random loot drops, they have a variety of objectives, and at completion your are scored and receive a commensurate reward. if you repeat them, they evolve and give you new objectives. These days, you even get to compare your performance with your friends, so you get some bragging rights. MMO's are more about repeating missions than any other type of game by a considerable degree, so they should be masters at the art of keeping you coming back for more. Instead, they need to be taking notes from games like Arkham Asylum or Hulk:  Ultimate Destruction or even Marvel Ulimate Alliiance 2.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 21, 2011)

Felon said:


> I'm not sure why I would want to play a superhero MMO so I can put on khakis and a polo shirt and spend time at work in my secret ID or go out on dates--that's what The Sims is for.



Because they're supposed to model superhero comics, which the devs, honestly, don't seem to read.

Think of how important secret identities are for Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, et al. There should be contacts you can only interact with in your secret identity -- either because they won't talk to you (J. Jonah Jameson), or because you'd put them in danger in your superhero guise (Mary Jane Watson), or other reasons. Likewise, you should be required to switch out of your uniform to infiltrate some areas -- no one will let Batman into their shady factory, but Bruce Wayne, who says he wants to buy the place, will be given the keys if he asks. Criminals should also be less likely to start mischief in the presence of a costumed hero, especially after a level or two.

Couple it with a more true-to-comics faction based PvP system (heroes vs. villains) and going incognito would mean dodging PvP, as well as the NPC agents of your enemy (cops or organized crime).

No one should be required to use a secret identity -- the X-Men don't consistently do so, for instance -- but it's a core component of the most popular superhero characters in the world, and for MMOs to not support it at all makes me wonder what it is they think they're emulating. (Of course, this is the same industry that gave us a Star Wars MMO without the ability to fly a spaceship for several years and originally made it essentially impossible to be a Jedi, because everyone was wanting to play a moisture farmer or something.)

And this also goes for combat and healing -- every superhero team isn't loaded up with "healers" (there are probably fewer than a dozen who've ever been a part of the JLA or Avengers in their entire lifespans), but CoX requires them, because the developers are using EverQuest as their starting point and not, more logically, a console fighting game, where characters recover quickly from most wounds once they're out of combat. That would be much more true to the genre, be easier to balance (making healers appealing to play is a headache in all games) and have more appeal to non-MMO gamers, who are most of the theoretical gaming audience.

My strong suspicion is that CoX was a superhero game because the developers wanted to make an MMO and seized on comics because it was unclaimed territory, not because they had great knowledge of or passion for comic books. (And yes, I know Statesman claimed he did, but his game sure doesn't show any evidence of it.)


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## BrooklynKnight (Jan 21, 2011)

Any interest in Star Trek Online?

(I'm a CoX and CO Veteran btw)


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## fba827 (Jan 21, 2011)

I played City of Heroes for a few months (long long ago). I loved the character creation system. for some reason (compared to any other mmo game) it felt the most fun. it's hard to explain why, but it did. in fact, i have screen captures of my city of heroes PCs for nastalgia, but not of any other MMO PCs.  The game play itself felt repetative after a short while (more so than other games) which is why i stopped playing it.

I played Champions Online when it was in beta (again, i repeat, i played it during -beta- so i don't know what changed after beta). It was fun and action-y.  the character creation wasn't as fun as city of heroes, but it didn't feel as repetative as quikcly as it did for CoH. I did immensely appreciate the create your own nemesis feature. it just added a personalized touch (albeit, i never saw the nemesis story line through in beta, so i don't know what, if anything, comes of it, but i liked what i saw of it - like the nemesis minions attacking you at random times through the game, etc)

I have not played DCU, but I suspect a big appeal for it is simply the brand name attachment -- you get to explore DC Universe locations, and fight along side (or against or be mentored by) various DC Universe characters, that has a strong pull right there.  as far as game play and implementation, no idea...


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## Felon (Jan 21, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Because they're supposed to model superhero comics, which the devs, honestly, don't seem to read.
> Think of how important secret identities are for Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, et al. There should be contacts you can only interact with in your secret identity -- either because they won't talk to you (J. Jonah Jameson), or because you'd put them in danger in your superhero guise (Mary Jane Watson), or other reasons. Likewise, you should be required to switch out of your uniform to infiltrate some areas -- no one will let Batman into their shady factory, but Bruce Wayne, who says he wants to buy the place, will be given the keys if he asks. Criminals should also be less likely to start mischief in the presence of a costumed hero, especially after a level or two.



I just got through playing Assassin's Creed Brotherhood. In a lot of ways, the protagonist is like a renaissance-era superhero, with a variety of wondeful toys designed by Leonardo Davinci, an acrobatic mastery of urban terrain, and combat moves that allow him to battle a dozen enemies at once. 

I mention this because some missions actually require a low-profile mode, not unlike switching to and from a secret identity. In that spirit, I would love to see a superhero mission reminiscent of that classic situation where a hero has to switch from his secret ID to his costume, such as by creating a distraction using the environment. Tie that in as a mission sub-objective.

Hopefully, the Star Wars Old Republic MMO will shape up as a blueprint for how MMO's should evolve. It'll boast a mini RPG for the various types of characters it has to offer, complete with a supporting cast and cutscenes that develop relationships and build drama.



> My strong suspicion is that CoX was a superhero game because the developers wanted to make an MMO and seized on comics because it was unclaimed territory, not because they had great knowledge of or passion for comic books. (And yes, I know Statesman claimed he did, but his game sure doesn't show any evidence of it.)



I don't like "healer" superheroes either. It's very much not part of the genre. Even a powerful white magician like Dr. Strange can't do much for a friend who's been beaten to a pulp. Raven from the Teen Titans is as close as I've seen to a healer hero, and for her the act of healing is both dicey and strenuous. So, IMO, it's trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. 

Having said that, Jack Emmert was the guiding hand behind CoX, and he's a passionate comic book fan. He had lots of great, innovative ideas, but like so many MMO's that spent years on the design table with the ambition of redifining the genre, they wound up at a point where they realized that they were biting off more than they could chew. Without a big license, it's unrealistic to expect to pull in huge audiences by being radically different from established expectations. Rather, there's a greater likelyhood of alienating potential players through lack of accustomed features. Some people like playing healers, and others feel combat is missing some integral component without them.

People are funny. They want something that's different and engrossing, but they also want something familiar and facile. By way of example, even in 2011, DCUO is taking heat for not having a crafting system. Because regardless of genre, every MMO should have merchants and auction houses, right? And a factor that's at least as important a consideration as the player base is the capital base. Investors tend to favor proven formulas over taking risks, and aren't shy about asserting their lack of artistic pretensions.


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## Goodsport (Jan 21, 2011)

BrooklynKnight said:


> Any interest in Star Trek Online?
> 
> (I'm a CoX and CO Veteran btw)




Star Trek Online looks interesting too, but my PC system is _way_ too old and underpowered to run it (and most other current PC games) comfortably. 


-G


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## Goodsport (Jan 21, 2011)

I'm familiar with how expansions work for a PC MMO (they're usually bought separately sometime after the original game's release), but how do they work for a console MMO?  Do they come in the form of separate disc purchases or in the form of a DLC? 


-G


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## Morrus (Jan 21, 2011)

Felon said:


> I'm not sure why I would want to play a superhero MMO so I can put on khakis and a polo shirt and spend time at work in my secret ID or go out on dates--that's what The Sims is for. However, it is true that superhero games are not very immersive. Nor or any MMO's IME, and I've played quite a few. CoX is like pretty much every other MMO, which is to say there's a lot of repetitive missions/quests that have you recycling a string of hotkeyed powers in queue-based combat. Champs Online and DCU Online use a more real-time combat system that is more dynamic and exciting in nature than CoX or most MMO's, but still falls short of what you get in a non-MMO game.
> 
> The main thing that damns all superhero MMO's to date is that they lack a physics engine, and without physics, superheroes and supervillains really aren't terribly impressive. Superheroes smash stuff. Supervillains smash even more stuff. But you can't go into an instanced mission and blast enemies through walls or chuck cars around or watch the beauty of what a handful of explosive pellets from a utility belt can do when you chuck them into a bad guy's ammo depot. You can't even tip over a chair. So, something pretty essential to larger-than-life comic-book action is lacking.
> 
> ...




DCUO solves most of that. Physics engine (not walls, but everything else is smashable or moveable). Very few power sets yet, but they have lots and lots of animations. Bad guts are varied (I just had to defeat an invisible teleporting guy - tricky!) massively varied locations - two HUGE cities, plus Area 51, Gorrilla Island, the Moon, Watchtower, Braniac's spaceship, and many more.


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## Felon (Jan 22, 2011)

Morrus said:


> DCUO solves most of that. Physics engine (not walls, but everything else is smashable or moveable). Very few power sets yet, but they have lots and lots of animations. Bad guts are varied (I just had to defeat an invisible teleporting guy - tricky!) massively varied locations - two HUGE cities, plus Area 51, Gorrilla Island, the Moon, Watchtower, Braniac's spaceship, and many more.



Thanks for the info. How about throwing a min-review our way?


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## Goodsport (Jan 22, 2011)

> _I'm familiar with how expansions work for a PC MMO (they're usually bought separately sometime after the original game's release), but how do they work for a console MMO?  Do they come in the form of separate disc purchases or in the form of a DLC? _




Would they even sell a boxed expansion for a PS3 MMORPG, for that matter? 


-G


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## Morrus (Jan 22, 2011)

Felon said:


> Thanks for the info. How about throwing a min-review our way?




I don't really have the "oomph" to write a review of it.  I like it more than its predecessors, it's prettier, but I wish it had more power sets at start.  I hear they have more to add  - but there's only 5 at the moment.


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## thejc (Jan 23, 2011)

DCU seems pretty cool. The trailer itself makes me want to play.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Nf-m6WGl4]YouTube - DC Universe Online - Cinematic Trailer (Comic-Con '10)[/ame]


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## Welverin (Jan 24, 2011)

I enjoyed DCUO for the little bit I played it during the beta, but the fact that I only played it for a little bit during the weeks I had it available is exactly why I won't be getting it. My game playing is to inconsistent for me to ever justify a monthly fee.

If it was free to play or a standard rpg I would definitely buy it.


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## MacMoradin (Mar 22, 2011)

Champions - did not like, design was just terrible and far too simplistic. Enjoyed CoH/CoV for a long time. Char gen was the best part, though. DCU is fun so far, char gen is not quite as expansive as CoX, but it is more free-roaming, which always makes for a better MMO.
To answer another posted question - STO (Star Trek Online) is so-so. I bought it during beta (and have a lifer sub), but the original direction the game was supposed to go ended up somewhere completely different. It is fairly restricive, in MMO parameters, tho they are trying to expand upon it. For all the work put into the game, it is sad that it is just a space version of "go here, kill 5 of those, turn in... go there, kill 10 of those, turn in"

MMOs I am currently playing (if anyone is curious) is DCU (all PvE servers) and LotRo (Gladden server). Currently awaiting SWtOR to arrive in September.


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## Tanstaafl_au (Mar 24, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Because they're supposed to model superhero comics, which the devs, honestly, don't seem to read.
> 
> Think of how important secret identities are for Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, et al. There should be contacts you can only interact with in your secret identity -- either because they won't talk to you (J. Jonah Jameson), or because you'd put them in danger in your superhero guise (Mary Jane Watson), or other reasons. Likewise, you should be required to switch out of your uniform to infiltrate some areas -- no one will let Batman into their shady factory, but Bruce Wayne, who says he wants to buy the place, will be given the keys if he asks. Criminals should also be less likely to start mischief in the presence of a costumed hero, especially after a level or two.
> 
> ...




Hrrrm. I think a lot of your points are simply the difference between pen n paper games, and MMOs. I'm not sure how you would implent game mechanics to make secret identies mean something without making them  a must have. 
I know role players ingame will just use a different costume slot of RPing thier alter egos, but nothing mechanics wise supports it.

I'm not sure how much you've actually played though if you think healers are the norm. In my experience of playing, you rarely get 'healers', one of the things I most enjoy about heroes is there is no need for a tank/healer/dps trinity. Buffing, debuffing and control is the more common and generally more sought after than a character who has focused on getting healing powers. Just about everything can be done by a pick up team comprising on any mixture of characters - which is good and bad depending on what sort of game you're seeking.

PvP is pretty much the suck in heros. The systems are there for mixed zones where you can commit acts of carnage, there's bonus extra special rewards for doing so, or for doing missions in the PvP zones, but for most players, they hate the idea of being forced to combat. 

Cities is also a mish mash of stuff, western and asian comic tropes, plus elements of steampunk and more. 
There is some interesting stuff in the backstory, but most often you'll be teamed and missing the text. Of late too, the storyline is all focused way too much imo on the new expansion, and updates keep hammering the thick story plots at you. 
But it tends to be either play with a RP group, or you just there to bash things in face a lot. 

As said, the costume character is wonderful. What you wear doesnt effect powers, so your damage with standing hero can be in battle armour mech like, or a zombie bride.
There's a lot of variety between enemy mobs. The same old same old maps get annoying after six months. Each side (hero/blue, Villian/red, and prateoria/gold) all were added at dofferent times, and have quite different stry arcs. Your now forced to try goldside with your first character, but I think you are better off trying red or blue asap. I'd make the character and then make another for each side. Heroes supports a lot of characters - 12 server with 8 character slots each. 

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/ has a lot of info about the game if you want to see what the enemiy groups, missions, story lines are like. 

But trials to all 3 are probably free - so I'd just give them a try.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 25, 2011)

MacMoradin said:


> Champions - did not like, design was just terrible and far too simplistic. Enjoyed CoH/CoV for a long time. Char gen was the best part, though. DCU is fun so far, char gen is not quite as expansive as CoX, but it is more free-roaming, which always makes for a better MMO.
> To answer another posted question - STO (Star Trek Online) is so-so. I bought it during beta (and have a lifer sub), but the original direction the game was supposed to go ended up somewhere completely different. It is fairly restricive, in MMO parameters, tho they are trying to expand upon it. For all the work put into the game, it is sad that it is just a space version of "go here, kill 5 of those, turn in... go there, kill 10 of those, turn in"
> 
> MMOs I am currently playing (if anyone is curious) is DCU (all PvE servers) and LotRo (Gladden server). Currently awaiting SWtOR to arrive in September.



The mission design has vastly improved with the Featured Episodes. The latest Romulan/Reman focused episodes were excellent. The episodes are considerably richer...

They are also remastering older episodes as well. 

Unfortunately, the next few months, there might be no more Featured Episodes, but part of the reason is that they are restructuring their team for a more "aggressive" schedule - allowing new series in rapid succession. We'll see how that works out.

It also appears as if the Champions Online teams wants to adopt a similar concept for CO - Featured, weekly Issues.

The Foundry is planend for release on Holodeck end of this month, and will allow players to create their own Startrek missions. The quality will naturally vary a lot, but there are a lot of interesting missions already on the test server made by players...


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## WizarDru (Mar 25, 2011)

Brief Thoughts:

1) *City of Heroes/City of Villains* - Fun enough to keep me playing for a couple of years, though it's been a while.  Being able to build and customize your own headquarters was fun.  CoV had much better level design and character balance.  However, the fact remains that the game hits a level grind halfway through and the missions become very repetitive (and there are limited tilesets and enemies).  Character Designer remains the gold standard.  Combat is more traditional MMO.  Party teamwork creates big benefits.

2) *Champions Online* - Developed by Cryptic, makers of CoX.  Better mission variety, but some aspects are overly archaic (such as the wholly unnecessary and confusing crafting system).  More limited power-sets,relatively fragile heroes and now an aspect where it feels like they constantly have their hand out for money (I realize it's Freemium, but still).  Some noticable improvements over CoX, but much of the game, especially it's tutorial missions are simultaneously over-wordy and fail to adequately explain game concepts.  Some important lessons are learned from CoX, though, like travel powers almost immediately.  Combat works on combos and building up energy for more powerful attacks.  Better physics modeling.

3) *DCUO* - The most action-oriented of the group, DCUO leverages known characters very well.  You feel like a hero right out of the gate and the game is spiffy.  Powersets are pretty limited and costume choices are the weakest of the three.  However, the game is visually impressive and more active in combat than the other two.  Mobility is much more key, for example, and combat more interactive overall.  Purchasing items/equipment feels kind of out-of-genre, but this is an MMO problem (see Star Trek's crafting and banking, both).

Right now I'm occasionally playing Champions because it's free, but I played DCUO during the beta and liked it a lot.  But not enough to actually pay $15 a month for it.  At least, not yet.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Mar 28, 2011)

I tried CO for a bit, but the character creater was surprisingly inflexible (seriously, how can you not have a dinosaur or dragon head if you have a bug head?), and it labored my system something awful.

I've kept up my DCUO sub, because it's (a) significantly different from WoW (which I also play) and (b) it's a lot of fun.  I don't have any system issues, the gameplay's pretty fun, and it leverages an existing IP that I already kinda know from the DCAU series and a few comics.  It's very twitch-based, and you have to balance use of your basic attacks with your weapons (fists, two guns, rifles, staves, 1h weapon, dual weapons, 2h weapon, etc) with your powers.

That being said, chat in DCUO is abysmal; you have to have some sort of voice program to do anything requiring coordination, because the chat feature makes you stop whatever you're doing to type things out.  But I definitely enjoy it enough to keep up my subscription, even though I don't play as much as I could (I do it mostly on WoW mini-breaks).

Brad


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