# Reaper to produce pre-painted Plastic minis - Non-random



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 2, 2007)

http://www.reapermini.com/
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3374511&postcount=171


Let's see whether this spells doom for Wizards' DDM line.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 2, 2007)

I doubt it- DDM has 2 things going for it: a direct connection to D&D, and an underlying wargame.

I do think it will make WotC work a bit harder, though.

And that's a good thing.


----------



## jdrakeh (Mar 2, 2007)

The "official" status of the DDM minis will keep them alive, no matter how crappy the molds or paint may get. Some people will never buy anything that isn't official (significantly more people than I once thought, actually). That said, I suspect that if the Reaper plastics have the company's characteristically clean molds and portray creatures that can be used with D&D, then Wizards will have to step up their efforts to avoid losing some customers.


----------



## Frostmarrow (Mar 2, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> http://www.reapermini.com/
> http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3374511&postcount=171
> 
> 
> Let's see whether this spells doom for Wizards' DDM line.




I hope they're good. -They should be, Reaper does some fantastic stuff.  

"Available this June Legendary Encounters™ initial release will include: Undead and Orc warriors of various types, an Ogre, Troll and Minotaur."

That's a bit of a disappointment though. I like adventurers and bandits first - monsters second.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 2, 2007)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> I doubt it- DDM has 2 things going for it: a direct connection to D&D, and an underlying wargame.




I think the players of the Skirmish game are a minority.

I guess the D&D branding will help a lot, but I do know that a lot of people don't care about it. 

We'll see.


----------



## MacMathan (Mar 2, 2007)

Any word on the price point yet? That will be the make it or break for me.


----------



## Dragon Vindaloo (Mar 2, 2007)

This is great news.  I love reaper!  Werner Klocke rocks!


----------



## Felon (Mar 2, 2007)

> Drawing on Reaper's vast experience in miniatures and a catalog of 1000's of metal models to design Legendary Encounters, Legendary Encounters will quickly become the most popular prepainted plastic miniatures line on the market.




Well, even if the minis stink, let's give them an "A" for self-esteem anyway. 

Good luck to'em, I say. I wonder what they'll cost? Since they'll be starting out by releasing the most generic of monsters--orcs, ogres, minotaurs, undead, and such--they'll basically be covering minis that WotC have already covered pretty extensively (I already have too many ogres and skeletons). 

As to being non-randomized, they'll hardly be the first, or even among first thousand, to offer that. There's a thriving secondary market for D&D minis on eBay, and I never understood why folks dismissed that so handily when ranting about WotC's commitment to randomization (other than sheer obtuseness). Where Reaper will hopefully offer an advantage is in providing minis of all types at a reasonable price--no $6 stirges please! But again, the types of minis that they're kicking off with are amongst the cheapest available.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Mar 2, 2007)

This is great news. I love Reaper's miniatures, and I've never had the desire to buy blind packs of DDMs or go through the usual eBay hassle to buy sets.


----------



## MerricB (Mar 2, 2007)

MacMathan said:
			
		

> Any word on the price point yet? That will be the make it or break for me.




No... and it's a big factor.

Has Reaper done plastics before? There's a world of difference between metals and plastics for casting & scale.

Cheers!


----------



## Nikroecyst (Mar 2, 2007)

I've always used figures for my games since I have been capable of buying them and have always used plastic over metal mostly due to price. Im really looking forward to seeing reaper do some great plastic minis and trump WotC. Worst case scenerio, like every one else has said, WotC steps it up to make better (or cheaper) minis.


----------



## Gundark (Mar 2, 2007)

While this is good news, I am concerned about the releasing on non-random minis from a economic standpoint. I'm no economist, however I heard a pretty convincing arguement (Ryan Dancy was it?) as to why it was a bad idea finacially for to do WotC doing non-random minis.Wonder if the same is true for Reaper.


----------



## trancejeremy (Mar 2, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> No... and it's a big factor.
> 
> Has Reaper done plastics before? There's a world of difference between metals and plastics for casting & scale.
> 
> Cheers!




Not that I am an expert on such things, but back when I was into Mage Knight, some of their figures for their Dungeons expansion (the heroes, specifically) were actually based on old lead miniatures from Ral Partha.   While obviously presumably they can't use the same molds, it's probably not that hard to use the same sculpts.  (Since otherwise Wiz Kids probably wouldn't have bothered).


----------



## Frostmarrow (Mar 2, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> No... and it's a big factor.
> 
> Has Reaper done plastics before? There's a world of difference between metals and plastics for casting & scale.
> 
> Cheers!




-Oh Merric, is that FUD?


----------



## WhatGravitas (Mar 2, 2007)

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> That's a bit of a disappointment though. I like adventurers and bandits first - monsters second.



I'm happy with prepainted monster plastics. For adventurers, I like self-painted miniatures with my colour scheme (and repainting is really, well, not that great, if not necessary) - but monster #324? Gosh, I want to buy it, use it, kill it, not have an individual, customized colour scheme.

Since I already love Reaper's minis for everything individual, having pre-painted _non-randoms_ is incredible nifty - when they're good and affordable, *I* don't need any DDMs.

And I think that's the point: DDM will always survive, because it is a standalone game that is actually played, but Reaper may grab the "only buy DDM for RPG"-part of the people.

If the price tag/quality are fine, they've grabbed me.


----------



## Sammael (Mar 2, 2007)

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> -Oh Merric, is that FUD?



Coupled with his comment from the other thread, it sure looks like it to me...

...or does your Official Optimist title only apply to WotC products, Merric?


----------



## Keith Robinson (Mar 2, 2007)

I think that's great news.  Of course, it's price dependant, but Reaper have produced some fantastic stuff, so it will be interesting to see what they produce and what the quality of the production is.

I've got loads of DDMs, and play the skirmish game from time to time, but my figures are primarily for RPG, so I'll be taking a look at the new range for sure.  It won't affect my DDM purchases in any way - instead it will just give me something additional to spend my cash on (like I don't have enough already!).


----------



## jujutsunerd (Mar 2, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> There's a thriving secondary market for D&D minis on eBay, and I never understood why folks dismissed that so handily when ranting about WotC's commitment to randomization (other than sheer obtuseness).




I don't know about anyone else, but as a european gamer, ebay might as well not exist. There are two reasons for this. The minor one is that quite a few miniatures sellers don't ship worldwide. The big reason is that shipping from the US seems to start at about $5 for a single (and up to about $20 for a couple of dozen miniatures.)

Too rich for me. At those costs I might as well buy a few more random boxes. (Or, rather, use the minis I have. "As you can all plainly see, this Orc with a greataxe is actually an elf with a bow." ;-)

/Jonas


----------



## Maggan (Mar 2, 2007)

Sammael said:
			
		

> Coupled with his comment from the other thread, it sure looks like it to me...
> 
> ...or does your Official Optimist title only apply to WotC products, Merric?




I thought he specifically was an Official WotC Optimist, not a general optimist.

EDIT: a EN World optimist, as it turns out.

/M


----------



## Sammael (Mar 2, 2007)

jujutsunerd said:
			
		

> I don't know about anyone else, but as a european gamer, ebay might as well not exist. There are two reasons for this. The minor one is that quite a few miniatures sellers don't ship worldwide. The big reason is that shipping from the US seems to start at about $5 for a single (and up to about $20 for a couple of dozen miniatures.)
> 
> Too rich for me. At those costs I might as well buy a few more random boxes. (Or, rather, use the minis I have. "As you can all plainly see, this Orc with a greataxe is actually an elf with a bow." ;-)
> 
> /Jonas



I'm a European gamer, and I've bought hundreds of minis from eBay. If you shop carefully, you can find sellers willing to ship a dozen minis for about $5. If some of those minis are average- or below-priced rares, this is a bargain.

Heck, at one point, I found a seller willing to offer worldwide free shipping. He shipped in padded envelopes so the minis ended up warped, but hey - that can be easily fixed with the hot water / hair dryer technique, and I got a number of GoL Huge Rares for peanuts this way.


----------



## mhensley (Mar 2, 2007)

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> -Oh Merric, is that FUD?




No, it isn't.  The equipment needed to produce plastic figures is much more expensive than what it used for metal ones.  That's why usually only large companies like GW and WOTC produce plastic minis.


----------



## MerricB (Mar 2, 2007)

I think this is great news. (I just hate the tone of the announcement... saying this will be the biggest success before the first mini is sold just rubs me the wrong way).

I'm also very interested in seeing how they'll distribute these minis. I doubt many will be sold directly in Ballarat, but getting them from Melbourne will be feasible.

Does anyone have any numbers on how many new Reaper sculpts in metal there are each year?



> Not that I am an expert on such things, but back when I was into Mage Knight, some of their figures for their Dungeons expansion (the heroes, specifically) were actually based on old lead miniatures from Ral Partha. While obviously presumably they can't use the same molds, it's probably not that hard to use the same sculpts. (Since otherwise Wiz Kids probably wouldn't have bothered).




Back in the early days of DDM, I heard the designers discussing why you couldn't use the same sculpts for plastic as for metal. Later on, I've discovered more details... this may be a legacy of the softer plastic that DDM uses, though. 

It's quite interesting: there is some shrinkage between steps, but it can't be predicted accurately in all cases. At least, that's the excuse for the Fire Giant Forgepriest from the last set of DDM.

Cheers!


----------



## Mighty Halfling (Mar 2, 2007)

Heck, if they were smart, they'd sell them for $1 each and try to get someplace like Dollar General to buy into them.


----------



## TarionzCousin (Mar 2, 2007)

This is great news. Competition is usually beneficial to the consumers: increased variety, competitive pricing, improved quality, losers' self-esteem gets crushed, etc. 

Personally, I use DDM plastics exclusively for D&D and don't care about the stat card/rarity other than for how it drives the prices for cool singles out of my reach.


----------



## thedungeondelver (Mar 2, 2007)

God, what terrible news.


----------



## MerricB (Mar 2, 2007)

What I'm really hoping is that the Reaper line makes available at a reasonable price a lot of the rare-type minis that have been overpriced due to the rarity structure of DDM. Esp. giants. 

Cheers!


----------



## CharlesRyan (Mar 2, 2007)

I can't wait for these. I'm totally digging the way AT-43 and Battlefield Evolution have bolstered my collection of modern/SF minis at relatively low cost, and I'm looking forward to being able to further build my fantasy minis collection at a faster pace and lower cost. (And to add an alternative aesthetic sensibility to the mix.)

As with AT-43 and BE, though, I'll buy early. My enthusiasm for the product is not matched by my confidence in the business model. Will these minis still be around a year after launch? I hope so, but I'm not putting off any of my purchases on that assumption. . . .


----------



## dargoth3 (Mar 2, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> What I'm really hoping is that the Reaper line makes available at a reasonable price a lot of the rare-type minis that have been overpriced due to the rarity structure of DDM. Esp. giants.
> 
> Cheers!




I wonder if the new DDM Icon format is in part a response to Reapers entry into the Plastic mini market.......


----------



## MerricB (Mar 2, 2007)

dargoth3 said:
			
		

> I wonder if the new DDM Icon format is in part a response to Reapers entry into the Plastic mini market.......




Hmm - if the new Scenario packs were bunchs of 20 orcs and the like, I'd agree, but we haven't seen any sign of that yet. Instead we just have a Gargantuan White Dragon + 2 unique figures. Not quite the same.

Cheers!


----------



## Imaro (Mar 2, 2007)

Yes!  If the price-point on these is reasonable then I will so be replacing my already dwindling purchases of DDM with these.  Yes I understand there is a secondary market, but it's also a question of convenience.  

I usually purchase minis as a side purchase or spur of the moment thing like to round out an order on amazon for free shipping or while in the store with only a little extra cash(though lately my mini purchases have dwindled to almost nothing, I've been replacing them with a pack of Dungeon Tiles where possible.).  I think they should try to get  these on Amazon if at all possible.  If the price is right they would become my new "extra purchase".

As far as the releases, I'll buy a pack or two of minis that I already have(orcs, skeletons etc.) just to support them, but my main purchases would be things like the trolls, ogres etc. which I have little or none of.  I think about the number of copies and minis I will probbly never use from DDM that I own and it seems that I've already purchased alot of unneccessary stuff, and for a business model I don't really care for.  I think that this is where the DDM line breaks down for me.  I'm not an avid enough mini fan to want to track down stuff on ebay or other stores, so the convenience this offers for me is great.

Once again though, most of the above is dependant on the price point(though I am willing to pay more for both getting what I want as well as superior casts and paint jobs).


----------



## Imaro (Mar 2, 2007)

Sorry double post.


----------



## Drkfathr1 (Mar 2, 2007)

Woo Hoo! THis is great news! Like Merric said, especially if they focus on monsters that are rare in the DDM line!


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 2, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> http://www.reapermini.com/
> http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3374511&postcount=171




FULL. OF. AWESOME. 

I can't wait for this. I usually buy HeroClix stuff for my supers games and them off of the clix bases and glue them onto 30mm bases. Sometimes I repaint them for custom characters. 

I bought a few packs of DDM to try them out, but the random nature pretty much was a deal breaker. This sounds like exactly what I'm looking for though. If the sculpts are based off of thier pre-existing sculpts then this should be awesome. I'd totally buy a box of 12  prepainted orcs for $20 - $25. Any higher than that though and I'll have to reconsider.

It would also be nice for when I run adventures (like AOW) I know that could go and buy what monsters are going to be part of the major encounters and have them ready for the game. That might take a while for them to build up thier plastic catalouge but it would still be great.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 2, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> God, what terrible news.




I know that I'm probably going to regret asking this but, why is this terrible news?


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 2, 2007)

This sound great.  I haven't bought any WOTC minis in a while due to rising cost and a lack of knowing what I am getting.  If I can get good figures for a fair price, and I'll pay a bit more for these than I probably would for DDM since I will apparently know what I will be getting for my cash, I'll be all over these.  Hopefully they put out some demons, giants, and a few other monsters.  I love their metal figs but just can't find the time to paint like I would like to.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Mar 2, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> God, what terrible news.




I'm so sorry plastic miniatures came to your house and shot your dog?   

More seriously, in the Reaper forms, they've said that this won't affect metal releases, and that their metals, and I quote "have weathered the worst of what plastic prepaints could throw at them."


----------



## Thunderfoot (Mar 2, 2007)

Gundark said:
			
		

> While this is good news, I am concerned about the releasing on non-random minis from a economic standpoint. I'm no economist, however I heard a pretty convincing arguement (Ryan Dancy was it?) as to why it was a bad idea finacially for to do WotC doing non-random minis.Wonder if the same is true for Reaper.



I would guess no - WotC entered the metal market with the Chainmail line trying to create a point style game and got CRUSHED by Reaper when their sales couldn't keep up.  They entered the random pre-painted plastic minis market because there was no one else doing it that way (a very smart move on WotCs part).

But Reaper survives as a niche market modeler, they devote about 92% of their resources to minis, not books, not novels, not T-shirts, etc. so they can keep a large inventory of items on stock (something that WotC, a division of Hasbro, will not allow nor can afford).  And unlike WotC Reaper regularly re-scuplts the same figure in the metal line when it starts garnering flagging sales numbers.  As a former metal mini modeler, I have several Reaper figs with the same name but very different sculpts.



			
				MerricB said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any numbers on how many new Reaper sculpts in metal there are each year?



Usually in the neghborhood of about 40 (sometimes less, sometimes more), of course if your question is due to number of sculpts available, they probably won't "retire" their lines as fast as WotC, which may be the reason that WotC made the current re-casting/re-issue thing known.

Another reason Reaper may be entering the plastic minis market might be du to recent shortages in the metals market.  About three years ago Reaper released a news brief that stated their supplier of metals (China I believe) had started to actually use their own resources and were no longer shipping amounts large enough at prices low enough for Reaper to continue to sell their minis at such low prices.  Their average price of a mini went up from 2.00 to about 3.25.  Plastics may be more readily available and might be easier to recast due to the amounts of new to old material needed during the recycling process (pewter unlike lead needs larger amounts of new slag in order to re-cast).  So for Reaper, this could be finincial benificial all the way around.  Anyone from Reaper care to comment on this? 

As for releasing orcs, undead, ogres and trolls first instead of adventurers, I would assume that Reaper has watched the available market like we all have.  Realistically, the amount of available orcs, undead, ogres and trolls at affordable prices are really not that great.  Yeah orcs, pretty well covered, but undead is more than skeletons and reaper has a tradition of releaasing large amounts of wraiths, ghosts, ghouls, vampires and mummies, things that have been either rare by distribution or of little focus in the DDM line.  Trolls and Ogres are probably on the list due to the aftermarket prices being so high for these figs.  And Merric, I would assume that Giants are on their list, why should they quit making them now? (They have always had quite a few on their roster.)


----------



## DM_Jeff (Mar 2, 2007)

*sigh* Now I know where my wife's entire GenCon budget will go.   

-DM Jeff


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Mar 2, 2007)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> *sigh* Now I know where my wife's entire GenCon budget will go.
> 
> -DM Jeff




I was just wondering how many I could cram in my suitcase myself   

I'm cautiously optimistic.  I've always been impressed with the quality of Reapers stuff, and I have metal figs going back as long as they do.  I don't collect the WotC stuff, but I do have a couple dozen picked up off of Ebay (mostly Star Wars) and the quality is pretty poor (IMO).  No complaints for the $0.50 I spent on each for mooks, but bad enough that I've managed the temptation to spend big bucks on singles to supplement/replace the metal stuff.  If Reaper can put out high quality, non-randomized stuff at a reasonable price, I'll be on these in a heartbeat.


----------



## green slime (Mar 2, 2007)

Interesting news. A bit divided on the issue, but I can afford to fence sit for a whiel.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 2, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> I just hate the tone of the announcement... saying this will be the biggest success before the first mini is sold just rubs me the wrong way




I call it confidence. It could be worse. A lot. They're not making fun of anyone, that would be bad.



			
				Gundark said:
			
		

> While this is good news, I am concerned about the releasing on non-random minis from a economic standpoint. I'm no economist, however I heard a pretty convincing arguement (Ryan Dancy was it?) as to why it was a bad idea finacially for to do WotC doing non-random minis.Wonder if the same is true for Reaper.




I'm not an expert, but I'd say Reaper knows what they're doing.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Mar 2, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> I would guess no - WotC entered the metal market with the Chainmail line trying to create a point style game and got CRUSHED by Reaper when their sales couldn't keep up.




I know it's apples and organes, but wasn't it Warhammer the kept Chainmail down? It was a skrimish game, not a collection of miniatures like their original 25th anniversary bits no?


----------



## Emirikol (Mar 2, 2007)

*That's Great News!*

This is GREAT news.  Now I can go back to purchasing miniatures again   Reaper has always been my favorite brand and now I'm really happy.   

I really got tired of wasting my money having a dozen useless and redundant D&D ones  :|

jh

ANNOUNCEMENT
Reaper Prepainted Plastic Miniatures

Reaper Miniatures is proud to announce the release of its first series of prepainted plastic miniatures.

This new product line will be released under the brand name Legendary Encounters™.

Offered in an open, non-blind, non-random format, Legendary Encounters™ prepainted plastic miniatures will be packaged using Reaper's standard blister card. Both single and multiple piece packs will be offered.

Unlike the several existing blind-sale prepainted plastic miniature lines currently available, Legendary Encounters™ will not be produced on a limited edition basis and will be available at any time.

Drawing on Reaper's vast experience in miniatures and a catalog of 1000's of metal models to design Legendary Encounters, Legendary Encounters will quickly become the most popular prepainted plastic miniatures line on the market.

Reaper has always focused on the creation of evergreen product lines and Legendary Encounters™ is the first product line of Reaper's new "Ready to Fight™"(RTF) series of games and gaming products.

Available this June Legendary Encounters™ initial release will include: Undead and Orc warriors of various types, an Ogre, Troll and Minotaur. Like our Dark Heaven Legends miniature line, future releases into Legendary Encounters™ will include every type of creature imaginable.


----------



## Zaukrie (Mar 2, 2007)

Competition is good. I hope the quality and price are decent/good. 

I still don't understand why people won't go the buy it now route (in the US) and buy orcs on line, but there obviously are people that won't or can't.

I'm guessing that the cost per mini will be similar, the selection will be significantly less (but you'll know what you are getting), and I have no guess on the paint quaility.


----------



## D.Shaffer (Mar 2, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> I would guess no - WotC entered the metal market with the Chainmail line trying to create a point style game and got CRUSHED by Reaper when their sales couldn't keep up.  They entered the random pre-painted plastic minis market because there was no one else doing it that way (a very smart move on WotCs part)



Technically, Wizkids did it the prepainted fantasy+plastics first with Mage Knight, I'd say Wizkids went that route because they saw how successful it could be.  Anyways I'd blame the the failure of Chainmail more on Warhammer then anything else.  GW and Warhammer FB/40K does for Minis what DND does for RPGs.

I'll be very interested in seeing what the pricing on the Reaper plastics end up being, but I fully expect to see complaints about them starting up almost immediately.


----------



## Pramas (Mar 2, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I know it's apples and organes, but wasn't it Warhammer the kept Chainmail down?




WotC didn't need any help keeping Chainmail down. It did a better job of cutting the game's throat than any outside agency.

As for the Reaper announcement, I think it could be a great move on their part if they do it up right. Hasbro itself has already proved that a non-random model of pre-painted minis can be sold quite successfully with their Heroscape line. Best of luck to Reaper in following suit.


----------



## dougmander (Mar 2, 2007)

This is great news. I don't have time to paint minis anymore, and I refuse to get on the random assortment treadmill. I also love Reaper minis and hope the plastic ones are compatible in size and style.

Yaahhhhh!


----------



## WhatGravitas (Mar 2, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> I'm not an expert, but I'd say Reaper knows what they're doing.



Ditto - and they're obviously testing the waters (Mass orc packs? exactly what DDM can't deliver reliably - at least without ebay-fu), so they won't break their neck on it.

And their marketing slogan... heck, if I'd judge *anything* on their slogan, I'd not even buying food anymore, since even food says "only made from the best blah eVAR!"

I'm wondering why anybody can even "split over it", because, well nothing bad can actually happen, since I assume that Reaper knows what they're doing.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 2, 2007)

dougmander said:
			
		

> I also love Reaper minis and hope the plastic ones are compatible in size and style.




"Drawing on Reaper's vast experience in miniatures and a catalog of 1000's of metal models to design Legendary Encounters"

I guess they will stick to their known stile and scale. Plus, listening to their announcement, they intent to compete with Wizards (crush them, really), so they have to do minis fit for 1' grids.


----------



## thedungeondelver (Mar 2, 2007)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I know that I'm probably going to regret asking this but, why is this terrible news?





Because plastic prepainted miniatures look like junk.  Yeah, hey, a fighter with a sword that's bent into a "U" that I can't _unbend_?  Yeah give me more of those!

Because plastic prepainted minis are nearly impossible to strip and repaint - at least ddm minis are.  I threw simple green at them, alcohol, and my editor used oven cleaner.  Nothing doing.

Because _all Hasborg needs to do_ is twitch their little finger and change marketing tactics slightly and suddenly Reaper is stuck with a bunch of miniatures _and a manufacturing process_ that they can't get rid of.  When the *LEGEND OF FIVE RINGS* license went away, or the *EXALTED* license went away, big deal!  They had a few metal molds in Texas they didn't need to use any more.  If Reaper is "successful" and does pull a significant number of DDM fans away, a slight adjustment by the multibillion-dollar megacorp behind WotC is all that's required to put an end to the argument ("Sell them non-random, get these guys off our backs.") and suddenly Reaper's audience leaves.  If Reaper is unsuccessful?  Then they've shot themselves in the foot at the word "go".

It WILL detract from the metal minis.  How can spending the bank on a new manufacturing and painting process _not_ detract from metal minis?  The money that would have (should have) been spent on the metal minis side of the house is now being put into plastic prepaints.  I don't buy it for a _second_ that this won't negatively impact the alloy minis.  Not one second.  

I see this beginning the end of either the Dark Heaven "RPG" line of minis.  Maybe not now, and of course Reaper won't spin it that way.  They'll pitch it that if you want a highly detailed character mini, buy one of their wonderful WarLord minis.  If you want bulk monsters, then buy the pre-painted plastic ones!

This is just...I just can't see any good coming out of this whatsoever, I'm sorry.


----------



## JRR_Talking (Mar 2, 2007)

will buy lots of 'monsters' and several adventurer types

dont need any more mook orcs, skellies, etc as u can get them sort of commons dirt cheap on ebay.

if they make things with 4 or more legs, not two, ill be in. No dwarves please.

John


----------



## crazy_cat (Mar 2, 2007)

Sammael said:
			
		

> I'm a European gamer, and I've bought hundreds of minis from eBay. If you shop carefully, you can find sellers willing to ship a dozen minis for about $5. If some of those minis are average- or below-priced rares, this is a bargain.



Agreed. 

I'm in the UK and I find the DDM secondary market and trading communities work just fine. 

Reaper non random pre-painted minis - sounds interesting. Whats the price going to be? 

Making no mention of it in the hyped up press release immediately makes me think that they'll be expensive. I'll make a decision on them when I see some sample shots of production minis with a genuine price tag attached.

Sorry. But overall, count me interested but cynical.


----------



## MatthewJHanson (Mar 2, 2007)

My favorite part:
[quote="Reaper Minis]Like our Dark Heaven Legends miniature line, future releases into Legendary Encounters™ will include every type of creature imaginable.[/quote]
Right now I'm imagining a creature with the tail of a scorpion, the body of a kangaroo, and the head of a pterodactyl.


----------



## crazy_cat (Mar 2, 2007)

MatthewJHanson said:
			
		

> My favorite part:
> 
> Right now I'm imagining a creature with the tail of a scorpion, the body of a kangaroo, and the head of a pterodactyl.



What - Did you mean a Wyvern?

DDM had one of those in Aberrations. Although the kangaroo part is sort of hard to identify given the crappy paintjob


----------



## Shadowslayer (Mar 2, 2007)

Hey, I think this is great news. If anything...I like Reaper's more classical art style better than WOTCs. 

I'm looking forward to this.


----------



## Sammael (Mar 2, 2007)

MatthewJHanson said:
			
		

> Right now I'm imagining a creature with the tail of a scorpion, the body of a kangaroo, and the head of a pterodactyl.



Not "every creature imaginable" but "every TYPE of creature imaginable." I am sure Reaper will make some magical beasts, some outsiders, some aberrations, and so on.


----------



## DaveMage (Mar 2, 2007)

Shadowslayer said:
			
		

> Hey, I think this is great news. If anything...I like Reaper's more classical art style better than WOTCs.
> 
> I'm looking forward to this.




I hope reaper makes a version of their metal marilith in pre-painted plastic form.  It's an awesome looking mini (IMO).


----------



## KB9JMQ (Mar 2, 2007)

I am not sure if this is great news but I like that there will be another avenue of mini's I can get if needed.
I have absolutely no problem with the way DDM is done now.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 2, 2007)

Greatest announcement ever. I'm so glad someone is stepping in this Arena. Even happier that its Reaper. I hope the quality is good, and the price is low. I'll definitely purchase these over DDM. Much less hassle free for me.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 2, 2007)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I hope reaper makes a version of their metal marilith in pre-painted plastic form.  It's an awesome looking mini (IMO).




Ooooh! I haven't even thought of this! Reaper could give us a decent pre-painted plastic Marilith!!! Wizards failed miserably with theirs. (I mean, they are supposed to be very comely, but the Wizards mini could make one forswear sex for life!   )


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 2, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Yeah, hey, a fighter with a sword that's bent into a "U" that I can't _unbend_?  Yeah give me more of those!




Hot water, cold water, problem solved!



> Because plastic prepainted minis are nearly impossible to strip and repaint - at least ddm minis are.  I threw simple green at them, alcohol, and my editor used oven cleaner.  Nothing doing.




You're not supposed to strip and repaint them. They have perfectly good minis for that. The announcement seemed to imply that the plastic minis would be inspird by their existing catalog of metal minis. So if you want to paint, get the metal mini, if you want a quick mini, get the prepainted plastic one.



> Because _all Hasborg needs to do_ is twitch their little finger and change marketing tactics slightly and suddenly Reaper is stuck with a bunch of miniatures _and a manufacturing process_ that they can't get rid of.




So you say that Hasbro could abandon their product line (with all the manufactoring baggage they also have) and would take the market with them? Suddenly, noone would want prepainted plastic minis any more?

And what would they switch to? Metal? Jelly?



> If Reaper is "successful" and does pull a significant number of DDM fans away, a slight adjustment by the multibillion-dollar megacorp behind WotC is all that's required to put an end to the argument ("Sell them non-random, get these guys off our backs.") and suddenly Reaper's audience leaves.




This assumes that the Wizards minis would be better than the Reaper minis, or a lot cheaper, or that those who will buy Reaper's minis will return to Wizards just because they made them non-random. I'm not sure about that.

And Wizards would have to be willing to change into non-random to begin with.



> It WILL detract from the metal minis.  How can spending the bank on a new manufacturing and painting process _not_ detract from metal minis?




Maybe because they will make money they wouldn't have made with their metal minis? There's people who don't share your love for painting and minis made of metal. They won't buy Reaper's metal minis (they haven't bought Wizards' metal minis). Some of them will give Reaper money if they get painted plastic in return.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 2, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Because plastic prepainted miniatures look like junk.  Yeah, hey, a fighter with a sword that's bent into a "U" that I can't _unbend_?  Yeah give me more of those!
> 
> Because plastic prepainted minis are nearly impossible to strip and repaint - at least ddm minis are.  I threw simple green at them, alcohol, and my editor used oven cleaner.  Nothing doing.
> 
> ...




Ok that's fair. I understand your concerns I really do. 
For me though I honestly just don't have the time or patience to paint minis as much as I used to. I'm trying to assemble a warband for Warmachine right now and it's taken me 4 days to do the pinning / assembly on 2 warjacks. With a full time job,  me studying for the GMAT, a 5 year old at home and a wife who also works full time and is on the tail end of completing her second masters degree there's just not a lot of time to paint up as many mini's as I used to and I like Reaper's Dark Heaven line. 

So I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I for one though will be buying thier plastic prepainted mini's. The only thing that would prohibit this would be an obscene price point.


----------



## diaglo (Mar 2, 2007)

Dragon Vindaloo said:
			
		

> This is great news.  I love reaper!



ditto.


----------



## Nebulous (Mar 2, 2007)

Damn. It sounds great. I'm not sure what the price will be like though, but knowing me like i know me, i'll buy them no matter what if they look great, and add them to my piles of other underused plastic minis


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 2, 2007)

On a sidenote: Alderac has something on their side about a Legend of the Five Rings Boardgame. I wonder whether it will feature prepainted plastic figures, too. (I just went on their side to look who was doing their minis right now - I had this vision of a L5R tabletop/wargame with prepainted plastic minis and rules for Skirmishes AND mass battles. If they did that I'd abandon DDM in a second)


----------



## Zaukrie (Mar 2, 2007)

So, will the LGS buy these? Can they survive without the LGS buying them, and only sell them on-line?

I know the LGS in the Twin Cities have walls full of minis. Many of them have dust on them from being there for so long.

I think the biggest risk here is that many LGS won't want to tie up their very sparse cash in inventory that doesn't turn very fast. I said risk, not certainty. I wonder how the distribution will go.


----------



## Lockridge (Mar 2, 2007)

For anyone concerned about price, don't forget that non random ebay minis are not only expensive for so called rares but you also have to pay for shipping and wait a week or more.
I use the term "so called rares" because WOTC chooses which minis to make rare - not because they should be rare (like an old baseball card that, when released, was common).

I'm in and can hardly wait for Reaper to start these.  For the reasons above, I am willing to pay more (within reason).  Reaper also does great work.

It will be interesting to see if Ryan Dancy(?) was actually right or was just full of marketing BS when he said random is better for the consumer.  Random distribution has an addictive quality that marketers love.

If this fails I hope the reason is more than just because people are foolish enough to prefer the "official" product over the kind of quality that Reaper has been producing for years.


----------



## Janaxstrus (Mar 2, 2007)

If they release 40 a year (which  was mentioned previously as what they do for metal), they'll be less then 25% as many as DDM.  Which means they won't be "large selection".

I can't imagine they will be "ebay orc" cheap either.  But we'll see in another 4 or so months I guess.


----------



## Contrarian (Mar 2, 2007)

Gundark said:
			
		

> While this is good news, I am concerned about the releasing on non-random minis from a economic standpoint. I'm no economist, however I heard a pretty convincing arguement (Ryan Dancy was it?) as to why it was a bad idea finacially for to do WotC doing non-random minis.Wonder if the same is true for Reaper.




WOTC (and TSR before them) never figured out how to make money from non-randomized *metal* miniatures, either, but Reaper's obviously figured that one out.

WOTC is the market-leader for roleplaying, and I'd be inclined to listen them when they talk about the roleplaying market.  The miniatures market? Not so much.


----------



## jdrakeh (Mar 2, 2007)

Been thinking about this and I think the best that will come of it is that, unlike the DDM minis, Reaper minis are always sculpted to scale. That is, it's not just the base that is to scale, but the actual physical dimensions of the minis themselves (I'm sick about the physcial scale of DDM minis not being consistent from one model to another).


----------



## Thunderfoot (Mar 2, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Because plastic prepainted miniatures look like junk.  Yeah, hey, a fighter with a sword that's bent into a "U" that I can't _unbend_?  Yeah give me more of those!
> 
> Because plastic prepainted minis are nearly impossible to strip and repaint - at least ddm minis are.  I threw simple green at them, alcohol, and my editor used oven cleaner.  Nothing doing.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry you feel this way...

Personally I haven't got the time to paint metal figs anymore so the pre-painted plastic is a big boon.  Yes the DDM paint jobs suck, but if you're going to repaint them, why strip them, they're plastic... In the fourty or so seconds of free time I have at night before bed, I can quickly overpaint and base a fig, finishing a mini on about 10 - 15 days of actual time and only about 10 minutes figurative total - I could NEVER do that with metal.

Yes, I do agree that metal may be going the way of the dodo, and for that I do feel your pain, when there is that one "perfect" pose, you just grab it and build around it...that's pretty much gonna not happen anymore and that stinks.  But with the boom of the plastic market, it was probably either this or shut their doors.  We know they can make better figs, now we just need to see if they can compete with WotC, give WotCs record, I don;t really see a problem.


----------



## Thunderfoot (Mar 2, 2007)

Janaxstrus said:
			
		

> If they release 40 a year (which  was mentioned previously as what they do for metal), they'll be less then 25% as many as DDM.  Which means they won't be "large selection".
> 
> I can't imagine they will be "ebay orc" cheap either.  But we'll see in another 4 or so months I guess.



My quote, as I said however, they keep them around for longer - so you'll not have to worry if you can find that ogre for less than $12, it'll be in the store waiting for you.  Or that Frost Giant that you won't have to spend $25 - $45 for.  And who knows, with increased sales (assuming they do increase) that means more 'greens' get purchased, I said they averaged 40 - at one time they were dropping close to 200 a year. (Pre-DDM)  If these are successful, who knows?


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Mar 2, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> And what would they switch to? Metal? Jelly?




Mmmm....gummi Drizz't DoUrden....<gurgle>


----------



## thedungeondelver (Mar 2, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> I'm sorry you feel this way...
> 
> Personally I haven't got the time to paint metal figs anymore so the pre-painted plastic is a big boon.  Yes the DDM paint jobs suck, but if you're going to repaint them, why strip them, they're plastic... In the fourty or so seconds of free time I have at night before bed, I can quickly overpaint and base a fig, finishing a mini on about 10 - 15 days of actual time and only about 10 minutes figurative total - I could NEVER do that with metal.





Yeah, but I - and _tens of thousands of others_ *do* have the time.  We make the time.  I'm married, have a child, and am a writer but by god if I see a mini I like and I want a good paintjob on it - and I have a lot like that - I'm going to make the time to paint it.

But it appears - like a lot of things - the wants and likes of a bunch of old complainers aren't being heard.  Or if they are, they're not cared about.



> Yes, I do agree that metal may be going the way of the dodo, and for that I do feel your pain, when there is that one "perfect" pose, you just grab it and build around it...that's pretty much gonna not happen anymore and that stinks.  But with the boom of the plastic market, it was probably either this or shut their doors.  We know they can make better figs, now we just need to see if they can compete with WotC, give WotCs record, I don;t really see a problem.




I don't buy that at all.  It's a money grab, an attempt to get a piece of the pie.  LIke the companies that all dropped good, well thought out homegrown rule systems to pump out d20 sludge.  Most of those companies are dead now.  

I'm sorry.  This just sucks.


----------



## thedungeondelver (Mar 2, 2007)

Contrarian said:
			
		

> WOTC (and TSR before them) never figured out how to make money from non-randomized *metal* miniatures, either, but Reaper's obviously figured that one out.
> 
> WOTC is the market-leader for roleplaying, and I'd be inclined to listen them when they talk about the roleplaying market.  The miniatures market? Not so much.





Reaper's done it through quality and through tight, smart inventory control. 

Or rather "did it" since they now think that this is the new way.

Mark my words, this is the beginning of a bad way for Reaper.  I hope it isn't true but dammit, I think this is a big, big mistake.


----------



## Thunderfoot (Mar 2, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> I don't buy that at all.  It's a money grab, an attempt to get a piece of the pie.  LIke the companies that all dropped good, well thought out homegrown rule systems to pump out d20 sludge.  Most of those companies are dead now.
> 
> I'm sorry.  This just sucks.



I'm not sure, there was a study that someone posted somewhere (please dear God somebody find it) that showed the Reaper was a niche company to start with and that in the metal minis market wasn't even one of the 'big boys' anymore, if that is true, I have to think this is their last ditch effort to stay afloat.  WotC doesn't have the power to close down companies, but their brand loyaty is enough to steer the market where they want it to go.  It's a sad fact, but a fact none the less - is t about money, you're darn right it is, no one gets in to business to hand out charity, except charities.  If Reaper has decided that the cash model goes the way of pre-paint and plastic, that is the way the the product line will follow, plain simple basic business.  Does it suck, yes, is it going to change because people complain, no, is that unfortunate, yes.  

As for ten of thousands of painters - the attendance at the paint and take table was down something like 50+%, if they are going to make the move, there is no time like the present.  If you think you have a legitmate gripe (and I think you do, actually) have you contacted Reaper directly?  They have a messageboard too and are usually pretty good about answering question - as far as customer service, they are still a 'big boy' in the market.  That would be my first action if I were you.  Hope this gives at least a glimmer of hope.


----------



## ehren37 (Mar 2, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I know it's apples and organes, but wasn't it Warhammer the kept Chainmail down? It was a skrimish game, not a collection of miniatures like their original 25th anniversary bits no?




I'd say it was the terrible production that kept chainmail down, as well as a horrendously crappy selection of D&D monsters.

Not a single dragon produced until the line was dead, no mind flayer, and many other iconic monsters. Primarily just more of the same elves, knights, dwarves etc that I could get anywhere else (and cheaper).

On top of that, the casting was poor, with massive flash lines and sculpts that didnt fit together. If you got all the pieces that is.

I'll hold my judgment of these minis. If they can crank out the equivalent of large uncommons for less than 2 dollars, awesome. Its all about value for me, and theres no way I'm paying 3 dollars for a generic orc or skeleton.


----------



## ehren37 (Mar 2, 2007)

Contrarian said:
			
		

> WOTC (and TSR before them) never figured out how to make money from non-randomized *metal* miniatures, either, but Reaper's obviously figured that one out.




They probably made money, just not ENOUGH money. From what I gather, Hasbro/WOTC expects bigger returns on an investment for it to be considered viable. A profit isnt sufficient.


----------



## kenobi65 (Mar 2, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> Usually in the neghborhood of about 40 (sometimes less, sometimes more)




At least.  I haven't gone back in and counted, but it seems like, most months, they release at least a half-dozen new fantasy minis (between the Dark Heaven and Warlord lines), and sometimes more.

Example: in February, they released 11 new Dark Heaven minis, and 9 new Warlord minis (across 2 separate releases, one on 2/12, one on 2/26).  In March, they're going to be releasing 7 new Dark Heavens and 3 new Warlords.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Mar 2, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Yeah, but I - and _tens of thousands of others_ *do* have the time.  We make the time.  I'm married, have a child, and am a writer but by god if I see a mini I like and I want a good paintjob on it - and I have a lot like that - I'm going to make the time to paint it.
> 
> But it appears - like a lot of things - the wants and likes of a bunch of old complainers aren't being heard.  Or if they are, they're not cared about.




Tens of thousands? Sorry man, you're simply a smaller market. Playing D&D is one hobby, and painting miniatures is another. By definition, the group of people that does both of these will be smaller than the group that plays D&D, even if the massively well-selling D&D Miniatures line wasn't enough evidence that some people want to play their D&D without worrying about painting up twenty goblins and a lich.

Also, quite frankly, plastic tends be to a better miniatures material. It sounds like blasphemy, I know, but it's cheaper, easier to kitbash, weighes less, doesn't require foam cases to store, and isn't destroyed if you drop it on a tile floor. It can also hold just as much in the way of detail as metal can, assuming the proper type of plastic. I've seen some absolutely steller DDM repaints, just as good as anything done in metal.

Your hobby isn't dying, but it -is- changing. Will you change with it?


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 2, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> .  LIke the companies that all dropped good, well thought out homegrown rule systems to pump out d20 sludge.




D00d that wasnt even necessary. You were making your point without slamming D20. As someone who used to paint and prefer metal mini's I empathized with you up until this point. 

Now you just come across like just another bitter old groanrd (sp?).


----------



## Mark CMG (Mar 2, 2007)

Pramas said:
			
		

> WotC didn't need any help keeping Chainmail down. It did a better job of cutting the game's throat than any outside agency.





True.  Athough, some of the figs were very nice.  I've got a couple of beast elements for my Dwarven _Hordes of the Things_ army made up from the Mordengard Set 1 Combo Box (Dwarf Raider, Dire Badger, Dwarf Fighter).  Very nice. 




			
				Pramas said:
			
		

> As for the Reaper announcement, I think it could be a great move on their part if they do it up right. Hasbro itself has already proved that a non-random model of pre-painted minis can be sold quite successfully with their Heroscape line. Best of luck to Reaper in following suit.





I, too, will be cheering them on.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 2, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Yeah, but I - and _tens of thousands of others_ *do* have the time.




So? Why should I care, frankly? You have the time? Great! Good for you. Go get metal minis. Noone seems to say that they will be discontinued.

But some of us don't have the time or talent to paint their figures. And we won't do without our prepainted plastic minis just because you don't like them. 



> But it appears - like a lot of things - the wants and likes of a bunch of old complainers aren't being heard.  Or if they are, they're not cared about.




Don't be a drama queen. Reaper's still making metal minis, aren't they? They don't say anything of switching to plastic. They say that they want to expand their catalogue. GW's still there, too. What I'm saying is: The metal minis are still there for you to buy.



> It's a money grab, an attempt to get a piece of the pie.




Of course. So are their metal minis. They make them in order to sell them and make a profit out of it. It's just one of those things companies do. It's one of those things they have to do.


----------



## ehren37 (Mar 2, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> So? Why should I care, frankly? You have the time? Great! Good for you. Go get metal minis. Noone seems to say that they will be discontinued.
> 
> But some of us don't have the time or talent to paint their figures. And we won't do without our prepainted plastic minis just because you don't like them.
> 
> ...




If you read the announcement on the reaper forums, they made it clear that they do not intend to stop (or lower) production of metal minis.


----------



## frankthedm (Mar 3, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> I would guess no - WotC entered the metal market with the Chainmail line trying to create a point style game and got CRUSHED by Reaper when their sales couldn't keep up.



Care to prove that point? Chainmail got canned because of the new head of minis at the time wanted to kill it and because it was not profitable enough for Hasbro's expectations from the days of PokeMoney. The chaimail line made wotc money, but the amount was not enough for 'corp to be happy with it.




> As for releasing orcs, undead, ogres and trolls first instead of adventurers, I would assume that Reaper has watched the available market like we all have.



Metal Adventuters sell best for reaper. They might not want to mess with that gravy train. Big reason whythere is at best 1 non humaniod monster in every monthly release of 5-7 metal minis.


----------



## Thunderfoot (Mar 3, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Care to prove that point? Chainmail got canned because of the new head of minis at the time wanted to kill it and because it was not profitable enough for Hasbro's expectations from the days of PokeMoney. The chaimail line made wotc money, but the amount was not enough for 'corp to be happy with it.
> 
> 
> Metal Adventuters sell best for reaper. They might not want to mess with that gravy train. Big reason whythere is at best 1 non humaniod monster in every monthly release of 5-7 metal minis.



OOOH, A challenge. 

No, WotC did make money, but Reaper still made more and as pointed out earlier, Games Workshop really dropped the boom.

And I'll stand by my monsters statement.  You are correct that the metal adventurers sell the best for Reaper, but one of the things that they can exploit is the 'percieved lack of baseline monsters' that seems to be the major (or at least one of) complaints from otherwise happy customers.  I think its a darn shifty and pretty awesome move on their part, and if successful can once again establish them as THE niche mini retailer.


----------



## frankthedm (Mar 3, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> I think its a darn shifty and pretty awesome move on their part, and if successful can once again establish them as THE niche mini retailer.



Catering to the smallest nitch of 3e, the DM. Players just need characters, DM's need horrors of all types. I await their packs of non bipedal, less than sane monsters.


----------



## Thunderfoot (Mar 3, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Catering to the smallest nitch of 3e, the DM. Players just need characters, DM's need horrors of all types. I await their packs of non bipedal, less than sane monsters.



Yes, the smallest niche, but the ones that "usually" buy the most minis.


----------



## Thurbane (Mar 3, 2007)

Any form of non-random, prepainted plastic minis is MOST welcome IMHO...


----------



## thedungeondelver (Mar 3, 2007)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> D00d that wasnt even necessary. You were making your point without slamming D20. As someone who used to paint and prefer metal mini's I empathized with you up until this point.
> 
> Now you just come across like just another bitter old groanrd (sp?).




Wait. Companies have put out bad d20 product, therefore I hate all d20?


----------



## thedungeondelver (Mar 3, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Your hobby isn't dying, but it -is- changing. Will you change with it?





My hobby, at least this particular one, isn't "changing".  It is being driven down to nothing.  The particular hobby of mine that is being negatively affected is painting metal minis. Reaper produces the best metal minis, period, bar none.  There are none that look as good as Reaper's stuff.  Don't get me started on those weirdo circque de solil looking minis Rackam puts out, and I don't think GW has resculpted their molds in about fifteen years. The last GW metal mini I got* made the RAFM Heavy Gear minis look like finely hand-crafted pieces of sculpture.

I keep hearing the cadence of "They're not going to change their metal mini output at all", but riddle me this: if they're in so much trouble as was implied elsewhere in the thread that they HAVE TO change to selling plastic minis, then the money to produce those minis is going to come from somewhere and I seriously doubt they're all taking a pay cut to help start this new enterprise.  The money will come from whatever is pooled for minis (CAV, WarLord, DH) and the pieces of that pie now get smaller.  So who loses?  I do.  And every other fan of metal minis will.  This _will_ impact metal minis, mark my word.

I don't like plastic, I don't agree with any of your assessments about the alleged superiority of plastic, I won't _use_ plastic, and that's that.  So, sorry, no my hobby isn't "changing" it is going to go away or at the very least be negatively impacted by this in some fashion.


*LotR aside, but an insider tells me to buy as many as I can because those are going bye-bye soon enough...


----------



## Kunimatyu (Mar 3, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> I won't _use_ plastic, and that's that.




If you're going to be completely inflexible, and won't listen to any counter-arguments or process new information, I question why you're posting in the first place.

Your hobby might be shrinking (though I'd argue the numbers were never that high to begin with), but it's not disappearing as fast as you seem to think; you're just unwilling to change, and there's no real fix for a wilful failure to adapt. ::shrug::


----------



## Agamon (Mar 3, 2007)

This is good, as long as WotC doesn't try to make itself different by putting out even more warforged and dragonspawn and other less than useful minis.


----------



## Maggan (Mar 3, 2007)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> Now you just come across like just another bitter old groanrd (sp?).




It's "grognard". But I must say I like your spelling better ...   

/M


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 3, 2007)

crazy_cat said:
			
		

> Reaper non random pre-painted minis - sounds interesting. Whats the price going to be?



That's the most important bit of information that keeps me in the "wait and see" mode.  People are making assumptions that aren't necessarily accurate.  Someone suggested you'll aways be able to find an ogre under $12.  What if the ogre is priced higher than $12?  

I wonder what price point would change the tune of those enthusiastic?  Expecting less than metal minis current prices is certainly being over optimistic.  A $3.50 orc is probably as cheap as can be expected.  What if they are priced at $7?  $10?  



> Making no mention of it in the hyped up press release immediately makes me think that they'll be expensive.



While I think that many here are expecting prices below what they will be, I really doubt we'll see "sticker shock" prices.  Reaper is enthusiastic about this and would know to be more cautious if they are going to be expensive.

I'm going to predict a price point at about the same level as the metal miniatures, or slightly above that.


----------



## Xyanthon (Mar 3, 2007)

I'm very interested in this.  I buy the DDMs because I want painted minis to use while I roleplay and simply don't have the time or inclination to paint the metal ones.  The thing about the DDMs that I don't like is that even on ebay, some things that I'd like to have rather larger numbers of (more than five anyway) can easily get out of control pricewise.  For instance any time they release a cool demon or devil, they are rares and the prices on the secondary market are usually pretty high just for a single figure.  What if I'd like to put together an encounter with five horned devils for instance?  Too pricey for me.  Hopefully, Reaper will be able to remedy this.


----------



## crazy_cat (Mar 3, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> *snip*
> I'm going to predict a price point at about the same level as the metal miniatures, or slightly above that.



And if thats the case, and to be honest this is the price estimate I'm sort of working on as well (until I hear otherwise) then I think I'll be sticking with DDMs. 

I get my minis by buying cases when each set is released, to get a low price per mini, and then I trade and use the secondary market to round out my collection. I find there are always chase rares I want, but also some rares I don't like or need so I've usually managed to trade to get what I wanted.

Personally I prefer cheap, random and wide selection. If the Reaper option is not as cheap but not random then as I said, I think I'll be staying with DDMs.

Obviously all this depends on the price Reaper come up with (and the figures being of a good standard, which I suppose we shouldn't necessarily take as a given for a new product until we see some actual production minis)


----------



## Felon (Mar 3, 2007)

So, if Reaper so desired, could they not make minis of monsters straight from the SRD? I recall Ryan Dancey saying some months back regarding how surprised he was that nobody used the SRD for exactly that purpose.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 3, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> So, if Reaper so desired, could they not make minis of monsters straight from the SRD? I recall Ryan Dancey saying some months back regarding how surprised he was that nobody used the SRD for exactly that purpose.




I wondered the same myself. What if someone else - Reaper, Games Workshop, someone else, doesn't matter - releases figures that look like Balors and are called Balors? Chain Devils? Black/Green/White/Gold/Whatever Dragons (with the distinctive D&D dragons look)?

Are they allowed? Could Wizards do anything about it?



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> I'm going to predict a price point at about the same level as the metal miniatures, or slightly above that.




I'd say they'll be cheaper than the metal minis. Or maybe the "common" type stuff - orcs, skeletons, that sort of thing - will be quite cheap, and the "rare" types - demons, dragons, and so on - will cost a bit less than what you could expect to pay for your average DDM rare on eBay.

The thing is, they have to offer something Wizards doesn't. They have to be better than Wizards to be able to compete. So they either need top notch figures, or they need them with prices that beat what you pay for DDM, at least on the secondary market. I don't think they'll base their whole offense on the fact that you don't have to buy this stuff at eBay.



			
				Agamon said:
			
		

> This is good, as long as WotC doesn't try to make itself different by putting out even more warforged and dragonspawn and other less than useful minis.




One man's trash is another's treasure. Some people like the warforged and spawn of Tiamat (I don't play Eberron, so those are not for me, but I do like the dragonspawn). Everything's useful to someone (except that Dromite Wilder, of course   )



			
				thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> My hobby, at least this particular one, isn't "changing".  It is being driven down to nothing.




No, I don't see it. Metal minis aren't going to die out any time soon. Reaper still makes them. They don't replace their old line with a new one. They complement the old with the new.



> I keep hearing the cadence of "They're not going to change their metal mini output at all", but riddle me this: if they're in so much trouble as was implied elsewhere in the thread that they HAVE TO change to selling plastic minis, then the money to produce those minis is going to come from somewhere and I seriously doubt they're all taking a pay cut to help start this new enterprise.  The money will come from whatever is pooled for minis (CAV, WarLord, DH) and the pieces of that pie now get smaller.  So who loses?  I do.  And every other fan of metal minis will.  This _will_ impact metal minis, mark my word.




First of all, I doubt that they're in trouble. But if they were, and really had to do plastic minis, then metal minis would be doomed, anyway. It would be either not selling plastic minis and going bankrupt in the near future, or do plastic minis to try to get money in. In fact, if this is the case, the plastic minis are a godsent to those who like the Reaper metal lines: It means that the company will not disappear, and will probably even continue doing metal minis along their new cash cow.

But again, I doubt that they are in trouble. If you can believe those that spoke about the plastic business, making plastic minis is quite an investment. A lot of fixed costs to start it up, and you'll have to sell a lot of minis. A company that has almost no money left can't undertake such a venture. 
I think it's more likely that they have enough money for it. They got it from selling metal minis, and now they're investing into another market to move in there as well. Get new customers - those who don't buy reaper because they prefer prepainted plastic.




> *LotR aside, but an insider tells me to buy as many as I can because those are going bye-bye soon enough...




Is that the usual kind of insider? The same kind of insider who told people posting on these boards that 4e would be released this year? That it would be a collectible game? That the New World of Darkness would be d20 instead of Storyteller?



			
				frankthedm said:
			
		

> Catering to the smallest nitch of 3e, the DM. Players just need characters, DM's need horrors of all types. I await their packs of non bipedal, less than sane monsters.




Players only need one figure (their character), or maybe as much as half a dozen (a couple of characters, henchmen, familiars, animal companions). DMs need dozens (all the monsters he's going to unleash on the players).

It's like Ferrari catering to the smallest niche of car buyers, the rich guys who are willing to blow huge sums of money for a car.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 3, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Wait. Companies have put out bad d20 product, therefore I hate all d20?




Then you probably should have clarified. 

you made a statement of: 

"Like the companies that all dropped good, well thought out homegrown rule systems" 
"to pump out d20 sludge."

How is that not a bashing of D20 in general, with you not specifiying? That and your previously stated preferences for anything decidedly NOT D20 kinda made hard to seem like your werent taking a poke at D20.

If I'm mistaken however I apologize.


----------



## rgard (Mar 3, 2007)

jujutsunerd said:
			
		

> I don't know about anyone else, but as a european gamer, ebay might as well not exist. There are two reasons for this. The minor one is that quite a few miniatures sellers don't ship worldwide. The big reason is that shipping from the US seems to start at about $5 for a single (and up to about $20 for a couple of dozen miniatures.)
> 
> Too rich for me. At those costs I might as well buy a few more random boxes. (Or, rather, use the minis I have. "As you can all plainly see, this Orc with a greataxe is actually an elf with a bow." ;-)
> 
> /Jonas




Hi Jonas, one problem I had with shipping overseas was the lack of delivery confirmation with the United States Postal Service (USPS.)  The cheapest way to get a figure to the UK is with the USPS.  UPS air and Fedex are I think at minimum $15 to ship to the UK.  You can ship the same with USPS for about $5.  UPS an Fedex do delivery confirmation so the seller/shipper is protected if the buyer says it never arrived.  USPS is better for shipping cost wise, but as a seller I can't prove it got there.

Case in point, Christmas 2005, I mailed packages all over the world to folks using USPS.  One guy in Australia and one guy in the UK claimed they never received their ebay win and filed a claim through paypal.  I couldn't prove the packages arrived and paypal reversed the payment.  So I was out the item, the shipping and the ebay fee for selling it.

Now I don't even bother offering shipping outside the US.  Occasionaly a non-US buyer will ask about shipping to where ever.  I respond with the UPS/Fedex rates and why I ship that way.  Of course I never hear from the individual again.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## rgard (Mar 3, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> So, if Reaper so desired, could they not make minis of monsters straight from the SRD? I recall Ryan Dancey saying some months back regarding how surprised he was that nobody used the SRD for exactly that purpose.




They don't really have to use the SRD.  An orc is an orc of course of course.  The Reaper minis aren't DDM tournament legal so why bother going that route?  I think most gamers are clever enough to understand that the Reaper version of the Mind Flayer (called something else Bal...I forget the name) is intended to be a Mind Flayer.  

For those that use the DDMs for regular rpg play (I do, especially the cards for quick reference) I can use a Reaper version of the critter and download the DDM card from the WotC site, print it and I'm good to go!

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Darrell (Mar 3, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> I don't like plastic, I don't agree with any of your assessments about the alleged superiority of plastic, I won't _use_ plastic, and that's that.  So, sorry, no my hobby isn't "changing" it is going to go away or at the very least be negatively impacted by this in some fashion.




Fine.  _I_ don't like and won't use metal minis, primarily because I don't want to have to paint them (once it was a hobby for me...now it's more of a nuisance).  Frankly, even with the randomized nature of DDM (and I'm one of the ones who's been clamoring for just the type of thing Reaper is planning), I found it preferable to get pre-painted plastic minis and trade off for more of what I wanted (There is always someone out there who is looking for more of what you consider cast-offs.); so much so, in fact that I sold off all of my metal minis.  Since then, I have found it necessary only _once_ to purchase a metal mini, and that was because my ex-girlfriend wanted a mini of her favorite character, and it was of a type that WotC just isn't going to make (a naked human female, in case you were wondering...).  Now, after having sworn off minis altogether, sold off my original DDM collection, and then found myself drawn _back_ into collecting, I have several hundred DDM minis, and a grand total of *one* metal mini...and it's going to stay that way.

There is, by the way, one arena in which the 'superiority' of plastic to metal is virtually unquestionable...storage.  When I was into the painting and collecting stuff, I had to store my minis in padded boxes to keep from chipping the paint if they happened to rub up against each other.  The boxes, containing 200+ minis, took up an entire corner of my bedroom. Know where my 400+ DDMs are stored?  A big cardboard box.  On the top shelf of my closet.  Takes up hardly any room at all.  For convenience, metal minis can't even compete.

Metal minis may very well be affected by Reaper's decision to make pre-painted plastic minis, but it's not really anything new.  Purchases of metal minis fell off at the stores in my general area when WotC released the first DDMs.  Today, there are pegs-full of dusty Reaper metal minis languishing away, while the DDM boxes are doing brisk business.  Just judging by that situation, I'd postulate that if there are, in your estimation 'tens of thousands' of metal mini painters, then there are probably two or three times that many who purchase and enjoy plastic minis.  Why would you find it odd that a company like Reaper would try to move toward the larger market?

On a side note:  Before the release of the 'Harbinger' set of DDMs, I had virtually the same type of discussion with a fellow who hated the idea that WotC was going to release DDM in a scale larger than the 25mm 'standard' that he favored.  He claimed that WotC (along with GW and Reaper before them) making the larger 28-30mm size mini didn't change the 'standard;' but it does.  The 'standard' is what the market will most readily support.  Customers can change the 'standard' by voting with their wallets.  It may well be that the 'standard' of minis is on the move again, from metal to plastic.  The number of gamers who _will_ use plastic minis would seem to vastly outnumber those like you who won't.

I can understand grognard-ism.  I'm one of the 'great unwashed' who refuses to sink into the ungodly abysmal mire that is eBay in order to obtain DDMs I desire to possess.  I am at the mercy of WotC's random packing and the kindness of DDM traders to get what I'm after.  I manage, though.   

If word should ever come down the pipe that the Warhammer minis are switching to pre-painted plastic, as well; I'd say the demise of metal minis is at hand.  Until then, however, you'll still have metal minis to paint.  Reaper will still be making 'em, so will GW and some of the smaller outfits.  It may well be that the output of metal minis from Reaper will eventually be lessened, at least somewhat, and plastic pre-paints increased.  If so, the majority will have spoken, and the companies will be catering to them.  I wouldn't blame them at all.  

If, at that time, you still refuse to use plastic minis, you'll just have to deal with it...the same way I have to deal with my decision not to use eBay.  _C'est la vie!_

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## rgard (Mar 3, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> That's the most important bit of information that keeps me in the "wait and see" mode.  People are making assumptions that aren't necessarily accurate.  Someone suggested you'll aways be able to find an ogre under $12.  What if the ogre is priced higher than $12?
> 
> I wonder what price point would change the tune of those enthusiastic?  Expecting less than metal minis current prices is certainly being over optimistic.  A $3.50 orc is probably as cheap as can be expected.  What if they are priced at $7?  $10?
> 
> ...




I agree...I really doubt we'll have sticker shock.  I can't see somebody pricing this out in the business plan and thinking that a $7 orc would sell.

One other factor...while the price of oil (raw material for plastic minis) has gone up since the plastic minis were initially started, there are always improvements to production that will reduce the costs associated with making the mini.  Better machinery, better software and maybe better paints.

Of course we'll have to wait until we see the Reaper prices, but I'm not pessimistic about this now.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## rgard (Mar 3, 2007)

Darrell said:
			
		

> Fine.  _I_ <SNIP>
> 
> On a side note:  Before the release of the 'Harbinger' set of DDMs, I had virtually the same type of discussion with a fellow who hated the idea that WotC was going to release DDM in a scale larger than the 25mm 'standard' that he favored.  He claimed that WotC (along with GW and Reaper before them) making the larger 28-30mm size mini didn't change the 'standard;' but it does.  The 'standard' is what the market will most readily support.  Customers can change the 'standard' by voting with their wallets.  It may well be that the 'standard' of minis is on the move again, from metal to plastic.  The number of gamers who _will_ use plastic minis would seem to vastly outnumber those like you who won't.
> 
> ...




The 25/28/30mm discussion is interesting.  I still don't understand why GW used 25mm as the size for their LotR line.  Some may be 26-27mm, but as they were the major contributor to moving the minis business to a larger size, why go back to a smaller size?

Still baffled by that one.

Rich


----------



## Darrell (Mar 3, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> The 25/28/30mm discussion is interesting.  I still don't understand why GW used 25mm as the size for their LotR line.  Some may be 26-27mm, but as they were the major contributor to moving the minis business to a larger size, why go back to a smaller size?
> 
> Still baffled by that one.
> 
> Rich





Oh, I stopped trying to figure out GW long ago.  It's been so long since I picked up anything they made that I didn't _know_ they'd used a smaller scale for LotR.  Reaper is the only company who makes metal minis I'll even _look_ at (and even then I don't actually _buy_ 'em      ).

At the moment, I'm DDM-only...though that may change, depending on the look and (as so many have pointed out) price of Reaper's pre-painted plastic line.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## rgard (Mar 3, 2007)

Darrell said:
			
		

> Oh, I stopped trying to figure out GW long ago.  It's been so long since I picked up anything they made that I didn't _know_ they'd used a smaller scale for LotR.  Reaper is the only company who makes metal minis I'll even _look_ at (and even then I don't actually _buy_ 'em      ).
> 
> At the moment, I'm DDM-only...though that may change, depending on the look and (as so many have pointed out) price of Reaper's pre-painted plastic line.
> 
> ...




LOL.  And the cross-over sales for folks wanting to use the LotR minis in D&D would have been greater.

The GW LotR minis look great next to my old 25mm Ral Partha figs.

Oh well.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## wayne62682 (Mar 3, 2007)

This is great news, IF they sell these at reasonable prices.  My biggest issue with DDM isn't so much the randomness, but the fact that the classifications affect the price.  If a figure, even a normal-sized one, is "Rare" then it sells for about $20 if not more.  *Twenty bucks for a small plastic figure with an amateur paintjob*!  That's a load of garbage if you ask me.  And of course a lot of the figures that would find use and/or are just cool are Rares, so you end up paying a truckload more than the fig is worth just because of this collectable crap (and I feel the same way about CCGs where a single card can be worth hundreds of dollars due to its rarity).

I, for one, am hoping that Reaper kills DDM for good.


----------



## thalmin (Mar 3, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> The 25/28/30mm discussion is interesting.  I still don't understand why GW used 25mm as the size for their LotR line.  Some may be 26-27mm, but as they were the major contributor to moving the minis business to a larger size, why go back to a smaller size?
> 
> Still baffled by that one.
> 
> Rich



It is my understanding that 25mm was a requirement set by the Tolkien estate. That let's GWS off the hook, but shifts the question.
Maybe to use with earlier LotR figures?


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 3, 2007)

crazy_cat said:
			
		

> And if thats the case, and to be honest this is the price estimate I'm sort of working on as well (until I hear otherwise) then I think I'll be sticking with DDMs.
> 
> I get my minis by buying cases when each set is released, to get a low price per mini, and then I trade and use the secondary market to round out my collection. I find there are always chase rares I want, but also some rares I don't like or need so I've usually managed to trade to get what I wanted.




So, because YOU have tons of cash to burn on cases of minis, AND you have access to a booming secondary market, Reaper is making a mistake by getting into the plastic minis market?



			
				crazy_cat said:
			
		

> Personally I prefer cheap, random and wide selection. If the Reaper option is not as cheap but not random then as I said, I think I'll be staying with DDMs.





IOW, you prefer to buy dozens of booster packs to get the 6-12 orc warriors, skeleton archers, or zombie hoarde you need for your game? More power to you, but I think you are very much alone in the minority here.....


----------



## Kunimatyu (Mar 3, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> So, because YOU have tons of cash to burn on cases of minis, AND you have access to a booming secondary market, Reaper is making a mistake by getting into the plastic minis market?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You don't quite understand the setup here, I think. Cases are substantially discounted from the list price, and you're assured of getting 1 of every uncommon and 4 of every common, plus half of the rares(assuming no duplicates). It's a steal for the price, assuming you'll use most of it.

It's not economical for someone who just wants their orcs, ogres, and a demon.


----------



## crazy_cat (Mar 3, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> So, because YOU have tons of cash to burn on cases of minis, AND you have access to a booming secondary market, Reaper is making a mistake by getting into the plastic minis market?



I think you rather overestimate the impact of my personal buying decisions on the sucess or failure of Reapers new minis 

What I'm saying is my buying decision will be based on price and quality - and if they are more expensive than DDMs then I probably wont buy them.


> IOW, you prefer to buy dozens of booster packs to get the 6-12 orc warriors, skeleton archers, or zombie hoarde you need for your game? More power to you, but I think you are very much alone in the minority here.....



If you want to state it that simplistically as that backs your own pro Reaper and anti DDM opinions then YES, I do.   

I'd summarise it better as I buy 2 cases a set, because I can afford to as I have a good job and RPGs are a hobby on which I am happy to spend my money, and these 2 cases get me 192 minis - guaranteed to include 8 of each common (Orcs, Skeletons etc) and 2 or 3 each of each Uncommon, and 24 Rares - which I can keep or trade as I desire. Buying by the case I pay about $1.25 per mini on average (or less than £1.00) including shipping and handling.

There are 3 sets released per year - so I get 180 new mini sculpts each year and many multiples of the ones I need in bulk. The random packaging isn't a plus point that sells them to me on its own merit, its a factor that contributes to the DDM range being cheap and offering me many minis.

If Reaper can sell me minis for less than £1.00 each I'll be impressed - as the metal ones start (unpainted) at £2.50 here in the UK for a normal humanoid sculpt.

Overall, the new Reaper  line will suceed or fail based on the quality of the minis, the range available, the price they sell at, how widely they are distributed and actually available, what WOTC and competitor mini producers do, and ultimately how many of them WE (thats all of us gamers in general) actually buy.

If I like them I'll buy them - but I have yet to be convinced.


----------



## Thunderfoot (Mar 3, 2007)

Crazy CAt - I would like to point out that until the price of pewter went up about three years ago, the average Reaper mini was $1.25 per (I'm not sure of the pound conversion, but I know that's only a few pence (50-75??)).  If the plastics are cheaper to produce, (Reaper is VERY concerned about price, they appologized for three months when they had to raise prices.), then I would imagine that, yes, they will be cheaper than metal, even with the paint job.  Dwarven Forge does pre-painted resins that range from $1.66 per to $2.25 per, the detail is extremely fine (much better than any WotC scult) and the painting is really good for machine paint.  If plastics are cheaper to produce than resins (and I believe they are - does anyone know for sure) then I can't see the figs going for more than $2 per, but I would think that the target price would be in the neighborhood of $0.75 - $1 per (in bundels - individual pieces may be a little higher).  If the price is much higher than that, then they will need to make the "rare" sculpts just to make any money.

As for what they can and can't make, they can sculpt anything, the naming is the problem.  As an example, currently WotC is 'claiming' ownership of the Illithid name and the Beholder, however, the illithid is a rip off of the Cthullu spawn.  It has already been stated that 'treants' and 'halflings' were use to by-pass the 'ents' and 'hobbits' from Tolkiens estate.
Dragons are non-propretary due to historical significance, you don't have to call it a "Blue Dragon", just because it's blue and a dragon, but if you would, there is no way to sue over it, it can't be liscenced in such a manor.  As for the Demons and Devils, I am unsure if Balor or Pit Fiend are copyrighted, but Winged Demon or Scary Devil are not and of course Succubuss, Eryines and the like are classical Greek monsters and therefore, fair game.

I think the biggest effect these are gonna have is to deflate the prices of some of the 'rare' minis on the secondary market.  Especially on certain monsters that were made 'rare' that are game staples, such as Trolls, Umber Hulks and Carrion Crawlers, that can run between $20-$50 for the Harbinger minis.  Carrion Crawlers are usually seen in groups, I as a DM am not trying to pay $100 - $250 just for 5 low level monsters; if Rreaper can offer them at a better price, yes, I'll be getting them - if they can't, then I have to stick with the 'open and hope' method. 

And as I said before, I'm still wondering if the recent WotC announcements about 'scenario packs' and 're-issues' are the "Oh crap!" measure taken to lessen the blow.


----------



## rgard (Mar 3, 2007)

thalmin said:
			
		

> It is my understanding that 25mm was a requirement set by the Tolkien estate. That let's GWS off the hook, but shifts the question.
> Maybe to use with earlier LotR figures?




That would explain it.  As to why, I don't know.  The one two licenses prior to GW's was the Prince August and those were 28mm.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 3, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> I'd say they'll be cheaper than the metal minis. Or maybe the "common" type stuff - orcs, skeletons, that sort of thing - will be quite cheap, and the "rare" types - demons, dragons, and so on - will cost a bit less than what you could expect to pay for your average DDM rare on eBay.




I'd agree if Reaper was releasing _unpainted_ plastic miniatures.  


> But again, I doubt that they are in trouble. If you can believe those that spoke about the plastic business, making plastic minis is quite an investment. A lot of fixed costs to start it up, and you'll have to sell a lot of minis. A company that has almost no money left can't undertake such a venture.



I agree that they aren't in trouble now and the metal miniature line shouldn't suffer.  Maybe the releases will slow down a hair, but they already have a huge catalog.  

However, I can see this move as threatening the metal business because, with the big startup costs for plastic, Reaper might be in big trouble as a company_if this fails_.  I doubt Reaper would put themselves in that position.



> Players only need one figure (their character), or maybe as much as half a dozen (a couple of characters, henchmen, familiars, animal companions). DMs need dozens (all the monsters he's going to unleash on the players).



I know this isn't directly on your point, but am I the only DM who feels the best challenge for PC types are other PC types?  As a DM I need lots of PC type figures?


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 3, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> One other factor...while the price of oil (raw material for plastic minis) has gone up since the plastic minis were initially started, there are always improvements to production that will reduce the costs associated with making the mini.  Better machinery, better software and maybe better paints.




On other consideration is the learning curve and the quality of the initial set.

WotC had seen the growing pains WizKids went through with the Mage Knight set when DDM was released.  However, the _Harbinger_ set wasn't much better than the early MK sets, and was far below the standard of the MK sets that were current when DDM was released.  Plus, I understand that WotC was using the same factories that WizKids was at the time (I'm not sure about the accuracy of this statement, but I heard it from a few sources).

WotC clearly learned from WizKids and the inital set, though.  The painting of their sets improved very quickly.

If Reaper has the same growing pains, though, this could be a disaster.



			
				Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> And as I said before, I'm still wondering if the recent WotC announcements about 'scenario packs' and 're-issues' are the "Oh crap!" measure taken to lessen the blow.




I think those that believe this have a very bad idea of how far in advance WotC plans its releases.  I doubt they had a strong idea Reaper was going to do this when they planned the scenario packs or reissues.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 3, 2007)

thalmin said:
			
		

> It is my understanding that 25mm was a requirement set by the Tolkien estate. That let's GWS off the hook, but shifts the question.
> Maybe to use with earlier LotR figures?




That's an interesting idea.  However, Mithril Miniatures is still in business and seems to be making 32mm figures. (I'll note Mithril is one is one of my favorite miniature lines for D&D).


----------



## Lhorgrim (Mar 3, 2007)

I love the Reaper metal minis, and I hope they can bring the same style to the non-randomized mini market.

I don't dislike the DDM sets, but the ones I have bought have filled my bookshelves with a great many figures that I don't really need or want.  I don't mind the random factor because I like to try to utilize whatever I get, but the ratio of cool stuff to "I'll just put this on the shelf for possible use someday" caused me problems.   I stopped getting any of the DDM sets after two boxes of War of the Dragon Queen, because I just didn't have room for all the "spare" minis anymore.    If I had bought cases of minis it might have been worth my while to try to ebay the spares, but for the (relatively) small number I have to offer it wasn't worth it.  I let my 4 year old play with many of the spares, and when he destroys them I consign them to the abyss(trash bin).

As for Reaper plastic mini quality, I have high hopes.  I have seen what Mongoose was able to do with their Battlefield evolution line, and those minis look pretty darn good to me.  I know that Mongoose had some mediocre results with some of their Starship Troopers plastics, but they seem to have gotten that resolved.  I have my fingers crossed that Reaper has learned from othe people's mistakes.


----------



## rgard (Mar 3, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> That's an interesting idea.  However, Mithril Miniatures is still in business and seems to be making 32mm figures. (I'll note Mithril is one is one of my favorite miniature lines for D&D).




Wow, thanks for posting that link!  Those are the Prince August minis I referred to earlier.  Thought they were 28mm, but are 32mm!

Cool.

thanks,
Rich


----------



## Treebore (Mar 3, 2007)

Since I am confident I'll be as happy with their plastic line as I have been with their metal, I'm in for the ride. Plus I am sure their price point will be "competitive". The people at Reaper aren't stupid.


----------



## Treebore (Mar 3, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> Crazy CAt - I would like to point out that until the price of pewter went up about three years ago, the average Reaper mini was $1.25 per (I'm not sure of the pound conversion, but I know that's only a few pence (50-75??)).  If the plastics are cheaper to produce, (Reaper is VERY concerned about price, they appologized for three months when they had to raise prices.), then I would imagine that, yes, they will be cheaper than metal, even with the paint job.  Dwarven Forge does pre-painted resins that range from $1.66 per to $2.25 per, the detail is extremely fine (much better than any WotC scult) and the painting is really good for machine paint.  If plastics are cheaper to produce than resins (and I believe they are - does anyone know for sure) then I can't see the figs going for more than $2 per, but I would think that the target price would be in the neighborhood of $0.75 - $1 per (in bundels - individual pieces may be a little higher).  If the price is much higher than that, then they will need to make the "rare" sculpts just to make any money.
> 
> As for what they can and can't make, they can sculpt anything, the naming is the problem.  As an example, currently WotC is 'claiming' ownership of the Illithid name and the Beholder, however, the illithid is a rip off of the Cthullu spawn.  It has already been stated that 'treants' and 'halflings' were use to by-pass the 'ents' and 'hobbits' from Tolkiens estate.
> Dragons are non-propretary due to historical significance, you don't have to call it a "Blue Dragon", just because it's blue and a dragon, but if you would, there is no way to sue over it, it can't be liscenced in such a manor.  As for the Demons and Devils, I am unsure if Balor or Pit Fiend are copyrighted, but Winged Demon or Scary Devil are not and of course Succubuss, Eryines and the like are classical Greek monsters and therefore, fair game.
> ...





I've been waiting for the "reissues", they did it with Magic, so I was confident they were going to do it with the mini's. Sucks for collectors who want to sell, but its great for everyone else and WOTC's profit.


----------



## Felon (Mar 3, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> IOW, you prefer to buy dozens of booster packs to get the 6-12 orc warriors, skeleton archers, or zombie hoarde you need for your game? More power to you, but I think you are very much alone in the minority here.....




See, this is what I was talking about at the start of this thread. Why do people speak as if the secondary market isn't worth consideration?


----------



## Felon (Mar 3, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> They don't really have to use the SRD.  An orc is an orc of course of course.




D&D didn't create the orc. Sure, Reaper can stay at a basic level and crank out zombies and trolls. But can another developer go around making cloakers, umber hulks, and glabrezus and actually market them as cloakers, umber hulks, and glabrezus?


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 3, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> See, this is what I was talking about at the start of this thread. Why do people speak as if the secondary market isn't worth consideration?




Because, outside of eBay, there IS NO secondary market in most of the world. I live in a moderately large city with no less than 3 big universities/colleges in the immediate area, and I know of only one store that sells individual minis, and they only open 2-3 packs of each new set and sell what they get. Forget about looking for a specific figure, or heaven forbid, several of the same figure, regardless of rarity.


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 3, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> D&D didn't create the orc. Sure, Reaper can stay at a basic level and crank out zombies and trolls. But can another developer go around making cloakers, umber hulks, and glabrezus and actually market them as cloakers, umber hulks, and glabrezus?




Reaper already makes metal minis of cloakers, umber hulks and mind flayers (not sure about the glabrezu), they just don't call them that. And why would they have to? Since they are not random, you can see plainly "Hey, this 'Astral Fiend' looks exactly like the githyanki I need for next week's game! Cool!".


----------



## Felon (Mar 3, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> As for what they can and can't make, they can sculpt anything, the naming is the problem.  As an example, currently WotC is 'claiming' ownership of the Illithid name and the Beholder, however, the illithid is a rip off of the Cthullu spawn.  It has already been stated that 'treants' and 'halflings' were use to by-pass the 'ents' and 'hobbits' from Tolkiens estate.




The thing here is, product identity is not a cut-and-dried concept. When you copyright something like a fictional character or a monster in a game, there's a certain combination of features that make it your own unique creation. There is no easily-referenced legal documentation that universally establishes when someone has crossed the line and violates your copyright. If you think your copyright is violated, you have to sit down with your lawyer and point out all the critical points of similiarity between your creation and that of the infringing party and put all that in your cease-and-desist. It's really in the hands of whoever presides over your case to decide whether or not your case holds water. 

Now, some companies have gotten away with questionable stuff over the years, and because they didn't get whammied by a C&D letter, people start thinking it's safe to say stuff like "see, here's an example where Reaper put out a miniature that was pretty clearly a D&D monster, so they can get away with anything as long as they change the name". But really the bottom line is how far the two parties involved feel like pursuing the issue. This is why I brought up the SRD. WotC has given folks permission to use cloakers in a certain capacity. I wonder if that capacity extends to creating minis, or if there's some specific language that limits their usage.


----------



## Felon (Mar 3, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> Because, outside of eBay, there IS NO secondary market in most of the world. I live in a moderately large city with no less than 3 big universities/colleges in the immediate area, and I know of only one store that sells individual minis, and they only open 2-3 packs of each new set and sell what they get. Forget about looking for a specific figure, or heaven forbid, several of the same figure, regardless of rarity.




There are other secondary markets, but they're also online. Clearly, you have access to the Internet, so again the question is why you'd dismiss them out-of-hand.


----------



## Felon (Mar 3, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> Reaper already makes metal minis of cloakers, umber hulks and mind flayers (not sure about the glabrezu), they just don't call them that. And why would they have to? Since they are not random, you can see plainly "Hey, this 'Astral Fiend' looks exactly like the githyanki I need for next week's game! Cool!".




You've answered your own question. You told me they produce cloakers and umber hulks, something I didn't know because they don't advertise them as such. Sure, you can "plainly see" if you're digging through blister packs and happen to stumble across one, but as someone who doesn't dig through blister packs I can tell you I've never stumbled across one. Calling them what they're intended to be is certainly advantageous from a marketing standpoint.


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 3, 2007)

crazy_cat said:
			
		

> I'd summarise it better as I buy 2 cases a set, because I can afford to as I have a good job and RPGs are a hobby on which I am happy to spend my money, and these 2 cases get me 192 minis - guaranteed to include 8 of each common (Orcs, Skeletons etc) and 2 or 3 each of each Uncommon, and 24 Rares - which I can keep or trade as I desire. Buying by the case I pay about $1.25 per mini on average (or less than £1.00) including shipping and handling.
> 
> There are 3 sets released per year - so I get 180 new mini sculpts each year and many multiples of the ones I need in bulk. The random packaging isn't a plus point that sells them to me on its own merit, its a factor that contributes to the DDM range being cheap and offering me many minis.
> 
> If Reaper can sell me minis for less than £1.00 each I'll be impressed - as the metal ones start (unpainted) at £2.50 here in the UK for a normal humanoid sculpt.





So, you get cases for how much exactly? You pay ~$200 for 8 orcs, plus 59 other sculpts you can trade around? 

Let's say a DM is going to run Sons of Grummsh, an orc filled dungeon in which they actually suggest individual DDMs for the orcs found therein. What do you think MOST people would rather do, go buy 2 cases of each set to get enough orcs of the right type to use, or go buy 1-2 of Reaper's orc set? Do you honestly think that people who buy cases of each DDM release are really their target audience?

I think that 8 prepainted, good plastic sculpts of an orc warband for example priced at $20 is just about right. But I do agree that the price and quality of the sculpts/paintjobs is key, but isn't that obvious? If it were $50 for 5 figs that are the same and all look horrid is not going to sell as well as $10 for 10 figs each in different sculpts with excellent paintjobs. I certainly don't think they are aiming for A) people who are already good at painting their metal minis line, nor B) people who play DDM skirmish, nor C) people who are willing to buy so many boosters/cases of DDMs that they don't have any complaints about the random distribution model. I'm guessing this will be a big enough market to make it work, given the fact that Reaper has a solid lineage of quality sculpts in a wide variety of types at prices that are still cheaper than, say, GW. 

I for one am very excited by this prospect, despite the fact that I can paint pretty decently and I do own lots of DDMs already.


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 3, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> There are other secondary markets, but they're also online. Clearly, you have access to the Internet, so again the question is why you'd dismiss them out-of-hand.




1) Age. I'm old enough to have my own credit card, so ordering online is an option. Many D&D players are not and have limited access to an online secondary market.

2) Shipping. Worldwide players with access to the internet can be costed out of the secondary markets because of high shipping costs or no shipping available at all. Hence the WotC PDFs.

3) Rarity. If I want a secondary market beholder, I'm going to have to pay >$30, plus shipping. Or I can buy an "eye tyrant" and paint it myself for <$10, or perhaps get a prepainted one from Reaper for still less than online. Or, say, if I want 8 orc archers, I can just buy a prepainted pack, instead of having to dish out $7-$20 dollars for ONE, plus shipping, according to an eBay search. And since few of these guys have more than one for sale, that's $2-4 shipping for EACH. I'm counting the secondary online market out for this one, sorry.




			
				felon said:
			
		

> You've answered your own question. You told me they produce cloakers and umber hulks, something I didn't know because they don't advertise them as such. Sure, you can "plainly see" if you're digging through blister packs and happen to stumble across one, but as someone who doesn't dig through blister packs I can tell you I've never stumbled across one. Calling them what they're intended to be is certainly advantageous from a marketing standpoint.




If you took 3 minutes to visit their website, you can do a search of their entire mini catalog and see what they have, and they don't limit the search criteria to names and catalog numbers. They have checkboxes for type, gender, number of legs, weapon uses, monster type, etc, IIRC. You don't have to search a wall of blister packs to find what you need. Of course, you could just flip through their catalog, which most vendors have right on the wall next to the figs. 

The claim was they couldn't make "D&D specific" monsters, but they can and do. If they start to make them in prepainted plastic, it wouldn't be hard at all to see that they do have a Balor, they just call it something else, for example. Hell, they already have metal minis of Orcus, Demogorgon, and Dispater, as well as Hezrou, mimics, mind flayers, githyanki, myconids, hell hounds, etc etc etc. Are you really saying that if they don't market a mind flayer as an "illithid", no one will buy it, and the line will fail? I just don't agree, sorry. That's just like saying because a 3rd party d20 adventure doesn't have the D&D logo on the front, no one will know it's for D&D!


----------



## rgard (Mar 3, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> You've answered your own question. You told me they produce cloakers and umber hulks, something I didn't know because they don't advertise them as such. Sure, you can "plainly see" if you're digging through blister packs and happen to stumble across one, but as someone who doesn't dig through blister packs I can tell you I've never stumbled across one. Calling them what they're intended to be is certainly advantageous from a marketing standpoint.




All you have to do is go through their site and look at the individual minis pics.  It'll take you an hour or so to start, but after that initial run through, you'll only need to look at pics of the new releases.

One of my customers was lamenting the rarity and cost of the D&D Mind Flayers and I promptly showed him the Reaper version.  Sold several to him.  So I did the Reaper marketing thing for them and myself.  

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Kheti sa-Menik (Mar 3, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> See, this is what I was talking about at the start of this thread. Why do people speak as if the secondary market isn't worth consideration?



Because it isn't.  This so called "secondary market" dpesn't really exist - it isn't economical, practical, or even viable.  I went on some of these secondary sites...no one was selling a horde of orcs or a group of zombies, or large lots of kobolds or zombies.

The secondary market doesn't really exist.


----------



## Agamon (Mar 3, 2007)

I have to admit, digging through blister packs is quite annoying and time-consuming.  My latest PC is a trident-weilding, lightly armored favored soul in a STAP game.  After spending more than a half an hour searching through my FLGS's Reaper collection, then humming and hawing on what sort of modding I'd need to do with multiple minis, then realizing I hate modding metal minis, I just went home and modded and repainted a DDM Jozan with a suhagin's trident.

The other thing I'm not fond of with metal minis (larger ones, anyway) is their tendancy to explode when dropped.  I'm too clumsy to use those.  My metal dragon, demons and giants are just for show.


----------



## Agamon (Mar 3, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> The secondary market doesn't really exist.




As you describe it, it doesn't.  And it likely never will, primary or secondary.


----------



## Sammael (Mar 3, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> Because it isn't.  This so called "secondary market" dpesn't really exist - it isn't economical, practical, or even viable.  I went on some of these secondary sites...no one was selling a horde of orcs or a group of zombies, or large lots of kobolds or zombies.
> 
> The secondary market doesn't really exist.



I suppose the 1400+ minis sitting next to me appeared out of thin air, then? I'd estimate that maybe 1/3 of those have come out of sealed boosters, AT MOST. The rest are all from the secondary market. 

Note that my points below presume that you are NOT buying rares, just commons and uncommons.

It's economical. If a booster goes for $15, and I can get 7 out of 8 minis from that booster for $7 or less (plus shipping), that's $1 per mini. That's DAMN economical.

It's practical. There are tons of mini lots being sold on eBay right now, mostly containing of minis in batches of 3, 4, 5, 6, and so on... up to 12 in a batch. Sure, there may not be any kobolds at the moment (I haven't checked), but when Unhallowed releases next week, you're sure as hell going to have batches of 12 Strahd Zombies going for $6 AT MOST. Furthermore, if you find a well-stocked shop with a decent flat-rate shippinh policy, you can get literally HUNDREDS of minis at a time for a price that is very hard to beat.

Viable? For whom? WotC doesn't recognize the market officially. The number of stores selling single minis on eBay has grown exponentially over the past several years, and the prices for *current* minis (not those long out-of-print) have remained more or less the same. Thus, it's viable for sellers. That leaves us with buyers, and I think my above two points show why this is quite viable for a lot of buyers. Not all, mind you, and certainly not those who can't bother devoting something like 2-3 hours to searching for stuff they need and waiting a week to get it.


----------



## Kheti sa-Menik (Mar 3, 2007)

Sammael said:
			
		

> I suppose the 1400+ minis sitting next to me appeared out of thin air, then? I'd estimate that maybe 1/3 of those have come out of sealed boosters, AT MOST. The rest are all from the secondary market.
> 
> Note that my points below presume that you are NOT buying rares, just commons and uncommons.
> 
> ...



Where?

Give me a link where I can buy a large number of zombies, orcs, goblins/hobgoblins, kobolds, or the like.

There isn't one.


----------



## crazy_cat (Mar 3, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> Where?
> 
> Give me a link where I can buy a large number of zombies, orcs, goblins/hobgoblins, kobolds, or the like.
> 
> There isn't one.



How about this one?
Here be Orcs
I've dealt with Tritex before, and traded with him as well via the UK DDM Trading site . He is UK based, which is good for me, and provides a good deal - and I could get up to 18 Orcs from him for 80p each plus P&P at the moment (and P&P is on a sliding scale depending on the volume of minis I buy)

Given the stock he carries I can also get a few other potentially harder to find minis as well at the same time to keep the costs down per unit. 

This would actually be cheaper for me than gettiing in my car and driving (paying UK petrol prices) to my nearest FLGS - but I wont bother doing that since they don't actually sell DDM singles or in fact any Reaper minis at all. 

The secondary market is alive and well, denying that it allows people to get the minis they want, pretending it doesn't exist, or refusing to use it because its not official just makes people look silly IMHO   

Each to their own however, if those secondary market Orcs aren't good enough I'm sure lucky UK based consumers will enjoy buying some metal unpainted ones for £2+ each from their FLGS - assuming that is that they A) have a FLGS and B) assuming it stocks minis.


----------



## Sammael (Mar 4, 2007)

Hobgoblin Archer lot of 3: http://tinyurl.com/ypp579 (seller has 3 lots at $2 per lot, with $2 shipping to the US for those three lots of three; that's roughly $8 for 9 hobgoblin archers)

Kobold Soldier: http://tinyurl.com/ywnxqm (seller has 10 at $.5 per mini, with flat $3.5 shipping to the US; that's roughly $8.5 for 10 kobold soldiers)

Strahd Zombie: http://tinyurl.com/2fywrr (seller has 129 at $.4 a mini; if you buy those Kobold Soldiers from him, the shipping is free; if not, $3.50 flat rate) 

Orc Mauler: http://tinyurl.com/37y96e (seller has 19 at $0.75; shipping is $2 for first mini and $.25 per mini afterwards; if you want all 19, that'll be $20.75)

These queries were free of charge. If you want me to waste more of my time proving obvious points to you, you'll have to compensate me. Minis will do nicely.


----------



## rgard (Mar 4, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> Where?
> 
> Give me a link where I can buy a large number of zombies, orcs, goblins/hobgoblins, kobolds, or the like.
> 
> There isn't one.




I'd provide several links, but would be enabling your title here on En World.


----------



## molonel (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, I just feel like such a fool now for suggesting that this might work. I should have realized, like anyone with real world experience, that this would never work and only a great idiot would suggest otherwise.

[/deadpan]

We'll see. There are valid concerns with stocking prepainted minis, but I'm glad someone is trying it. I have my credit card ready and itching to go.

I understand, on one sidenote, that some people really enjoy painting minis. Even though I've been roleplaying for 24-some years now, I have never been bitten by the painting bug. I hate painting minis. I hate it with a passion.


----------



## carmachu (Mar 4, 2007)

I dont know yet. It depends on what they look like. If its AT-43 style thats great....if its like the D&D crap thats come out, I'll pass....


----------



## Felon (Mar 4, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> Because it isn't.  This so called "secondary market" dpesn't really exist - it isn't economical, practical, or even viable.  I went on some of these secondary sites...no one was selling a horde of orcs or a group of zombies, or large lots of kobolds or zombies.
> 
> The secondary market doesn't really exist.




You have obviously made little effort to explore your options. eBay shops that sell minis by the lot exist, and I many others have availed ourselves of them.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 4, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> Because it isn't.  This so called "secondary market" dpesn't really exist. The secondary market doesn't really exist.




Yeah right. And I just imagined buying those figures. I always wondered why I can't touch my new figures. Just look at them. They don't smell, and my hand goes right through.   



			
				Twowolves said:
			
		

> 1) Age. I'm old enough to have my own credit card, so ordering online is an option. Many D&D players are not and have limited access to an online secondary market.




That's a very good argument, the best I have seen against the secondary market yet. 

Yes, a lot of people don't trust eBay or PayPal or credit cards, so they don't buy on the secondary market, but it's their choice and not really a problem of the market.

But there's people who can't get credit cards or eBay accounts or PayPal. The option just doesn't exist for them. 



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> I know this isn't directly on your point, but am I the only DM who feels the best challenge for PC types are other PC types?  As a DM I need lots of PC type figures?




I use a mix of monsters and characters. So as a DM, I need a lot more figures than the players - not only monsters (which players don't need), but also characters (which players only need very few of)



			
				wayne62682 said:
			
		

> If a figure, even a normal-sized one, is "Rare" then it sells for about $20 if not more.  *Twenty bucks for a small plastic figure with an amateur paintjob*!




20 quid is quite expensive. But you only have to pay that for "chase figures", which are usually large or larger. The other ones usually go for 6-10 bucks - plus shipping, of course. And it's rare that the DDM stats make a figure a "chase figure".


----------



## Felon (Mar 4, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> 1) Age. I'm old enough to have my own credit card, so ordering online is an option. Many D&D players are not and have limited access to an online secondary market.
> 
> 2) Shipping. Worldwide players with access to the internet can be costed out of the secondary markets because of high shipping costs or no shipping available at all. Hence the WotC PDFs.
> 
> 3) Rarity. If I want a secondary market beholder, I'm going to have to pay >$30, plus shipping. Or I can buy an "eye tyrant" and paint it myself for <$10, or perhaps get a prepainted one from Reaper for still less than online. Or, say, if I want 8 orc archers, I can just buy a prepainted pack, instead of having to dish out $7-$20 dollars for ONE, plus shipping, according to an eBay search. And since few of these guys have more than one for sale, that's $2-4 shipping for EACH. I'm counting the secondary online market out for this one, sorry.




Your comment that I initially responded to was about being stuck buying cases just to scrounge together 6-12 orcs, which is something you simply don't have to do thanks to the secondary market.

Now, in your rebuttal, items 1 & 2 only cover fringe demographics, so that seems like you're just being arguementative. You're old enough to buy the minis, and you don't live in Zimbabwe, so you're not among the disenfranchised, and in fact the majority of gamers are not, so for most folks the secondary market is perfectly practical. eBay shops abound, and not just for folks living in the U.S.

#3 is a more legitimate arguement, but there are tons of commons and uncommons out there ready to be scooped up for cheap, so $50 beholders or not, the secondary market still has plenty of utility. And again, you were talking about a squad of orcs. 

Personally, I love the idea of what Reaper's doing and hope they do it right, but the majority of DDM minis are certainly attainable at reasonable prices without having to endure the annoyance of randomization.


----------



## Felon (Mar 4, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> 1The claim was they couldn't make "D&D specific" monsters, but they can and do. If they start to make them in prepainted plastic, it wouldn't be hard at all to see that they do have a Balor, they just call it something else, for example. Hell, they already have metal minis of Orcus, Demogorgon, and Dispater, as well as Hezrou, mimics, mind flayers, githyanki, myconids, hell hounds, etc etc etc. Are you really saying that if they don't market a mind flayer as an "illithid", no one will buy it, and the line will fail? I just don't agree, sorry. That's just like saying because a 3rd party d20 adventure doesn't have the D&D logo on the front, no one will know it's for D&D!




You not seem to have grasped what I was saying in my posts, as I did not claim they couldn't make "D&D-specific" monsters. In fact, I pointed out that they have gotten away with taking some pretty heavy liberties. But I will say that if someone sees an announcement on ENWorld news that Reaper is releasing a mind flayer mini, that jumps out more than some pseudonym like "tentacle lord", and it's certainly easier to locate through a search engine. 

Just as you seem unable to accept that "nobody would buy the mini" because they called it "brainsucker" instead of "illithid", I find any assertion that it wouldn't help their marketing at all to advertise it as an illithid to be a tad naive. I'd love to see if they have a mini that could serve as a phaerim, but I'm not going to eyeball their whole catalog just looking for that one critter that might or might not be there.


----------



## Agamon (Mar 4, 2007)

When I first read AoW while preparing to run it, I realized I'd need a lot more Lizardfolk than I had.  It took less than a half-hour to find and pay for a dozen.  Before that I had need for a lot of grimlocks and quagoths.  That was no problem either.

I have to admit, I've never needed to go out and find a bunch of orcs or gnolls or goblins because I already have a bunch, more than I'd need at one time and lots of variety.  Those common monsters have been easily found.


----------



## Felon (Mar 4, 2007)

On a bit of a side tangent, there is a practical limit on how many critters are worth having on the battlefield at any one time. Eight is a good practical limit for kicking off most encounters. Far better to throw the initial handful and then have more show up in later rounds as reserves, in which case they can be pulled from the dead pile.


----------



## Thurbane (Mar 4, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Yes, a lot of people don't trust eBay or PayPal or credit cards, so they don't buy on the secondary market, but it's their choice and not really a problem of the market.



Well, not if you don't consider lost oppotunity for income a problem, I guess...


----------



## Endur (Mar 4, 2007)

mhensley said:
			
		

> No, it isn't.  The equipment needed to produce plastic figures is much more expensive than what it used for metal ones.  That's why usually only large companies like GW and WOTC produce plastic minis.




The GW figures are so much better than the WOTC figures.  No comparison.  Only drawback is that you have to paint the GW figures or hire someone to paint them for you.


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> You not seem to have grasped what I was saying in my posts, as I did not claim they couldn't make "D&D-specific" monsters. In fact, I pointed out that they have gotten away with taking some pretty heavy liberties. But I will say that if someone sees an announcement on ENWorld news that Reaper is releasing a mind flayer mini, that jumps out more than some pseudonym like "tentacle lord", and it's certainly easier to locate through a search engine.
> 
> Just as you seem unable to accept that "nobody would buy the mini" because they called it "brainsucker" instead of "illithid", I find any assertion that it wouldn't help their marketing at all to advertise it as an illithid to be a tad naive. I'd love to see if they have a mini that could serve as a phaerim, but I'm not going to eyeball their whole catalog just looking for that one critter that might or might not be there.




So, what exactly are you saying then? You claimed a 3rd party company couldn't make cloakers, mind flayers and glabrezu, and I pointed out that Reaper has, indeed, done just that without any sort of official license to do so. Would it help if they were able to market these minis under their "official" names? Probably, a little. But probably not enough to justify the expense of such a licensing deal. You then seem to posit that searching for a particular mini with a "generic" name is too much effort for most, despite the fact that A) retailers have Reaper catalogs right there next to the blisters (and often arrange them on the shelves numerically by catalog number, making finding a figure from the catalog very easy) and B) Reaper's website has a search engine that is descriptive and not keyed to a creature's name. Never mind the mind blowing concept of ASKING the guy behind the counter if they make a good generic phaerim (which, as far as I know, hasn't been released for DDM either, and if it was, would most assuredly be a rare).

You claim that you pointed out the fact that Reaper has gotten away with some pretty heavy liberties in their generic figure sculpts, but yet you also claim that you won't dig trhough blisters and didn't know about the cloaker or umber hulk? You chastised one poster for not looking hard enough for DDMs online regarding the secondary market, but yet you can't be bothered to use an online figure finder search engine yourself? Or to even ask someone at the game shop?  

I hope the line does great. I have every confidence in these guys, and think they can do a good job and even though their initial release will be "gang" sets, I hope they branch out to the more unique set piece monsters. I doubt they will (big, flashy monsters are a big seller for their metal line, and prepainted mobs of cannon fodder fit the business model I think they are aiming for), but it'd be nice.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Mar 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> On a bit of a side tangent, there is a practical limit on how many critters are worth having on the battlefield at any one time. Eight is a good practical limit for kicking off most encounters. Far better to throw the initial handful and then have more show up in later rounds as reserves, in which case they can be pulled from the dead pile.




Indeed. Also, fighting multiple copies of a certain monster isn't always that fun or even playable -- five horned devils may sound like a fun encounter, but I defy you to actually keep track of every option those devils have access to. Most complex monsters simply aren't worth using with more than a pair, which also cuts down on needed miniatures. Personally, I try to get one copy of any large rare monster I really like, and then use blank GW bases to represent additional iterations of that same monster.


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Mar 4, 2007)

Janaxstrus said:
			
		

> If they release 40 a year (which  was mentioned previously as what they do for metal), they'll be less then 25% as many as DDM.  Which means they won't be "large selection".
> 
> I can't imagine they will be "ebay orc" cheap either.  But we'll see in another 4 or so months I guess.



Err, the number is closer to _140_ new miniatures a year, not including boxed sets. February saw ten releases, and some of those were multipacks....

The Auld Grump


----------



## bowbe (Mar 4, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Indeed. Also, fighting multiple copies of a certain monster isn't always that fun or even playable -- five horned devils may sound like a fun encounter, but I defy you to actually keep track of every option those devils have access to. Most complex monsters simply aren't worth using with more than a pair, which also cuts down on needed miniatures. Personally, I try to get one copy of any large rare monster I really like, and then use blank GW bases to represent additional iterations of that same monster.





Defied! 

I'm soo going to run that encounter the weekend after next. The party is a juiced up bunch of selfish 20th+ level characters. It should be fun! I probably have enough painted metal reaper figs to fill the bill too. I go big tho. I have 3 of their fire giants and 3-4 frost giants from them or varous sundry other companies. I've got like 4 fire elementals and 6 or more different painted trolls and as many different painted ogres. It's all good and its great when all that stuff is laid out on the table. The players Love that stuff even if they say they dont dig mini's. When you have your tiles, or terrain laid out, the figs in place and a big buncha buncha large enemies on the table, they dig it. Its better than pennies, poker chips and bottle caps. We had a titan in one ofour games a few weeks back, so I used a conan model from Mcfarlan's toy franchise to use as a stand in. Perfect.

I'm a huge HUGE fan of Reaper. Their sculpts kick butt and their company does too! Ron Hawkins the head of their Fantasy line is hands down the coolest guy in the RPG industry. Yes cooler than Monte... tho not cooler than Sue... but Sue isn't a guy. 

I wish them the best of luck, because I totally need 100 more orcs to flesh out my 25 or so metal ones into a full blown horde of destruction. I need more gnolls, kobods, goblins and hobgoblins too. 

I despise the WOTC kobolds. Crappy little lizard men. Most of their orc figs are equally crap-tastic. Their bugbears are WAY too small and look like early 80's wolverine  dressed in not so glamorous paint. Their hobgoblins...awful. To their credit, WOTC stuff has gotten better. 


Case


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Mar 4, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Because plastic prepainted miniatures look like junk.  Yeah, hey, a fighter with a sword that's bent into a "U" that I can't _unbend_?  Yeah give me more of those!
> 
> Because plastic prepainted minis are nearly impossible to strip and repaint - at least ddm minis are.  I threw simple green at them, alcohol, and my editor used oven cleaner.  Nothing doing.
> 
> ...




You should have added "...if you're a fan of metal minis or like to strip and repaint minis yourself" at the end of your post. I'm not and I don't. I see nothing but good coming from this...depending on the price. I want sets of cheap minis that I don't have to search over Hell and half of Georgia to obtain the ones I want.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 4, 2007)

Treebore said:
			
		

> Since I am confident I'll be as happy with their plastic line as I have been with their metal, I'm in for the ride. Plus I am sure their price point will be "competitive". The people at Reaper aren't stupid.



I agree they'll be competitive, but many here might not consider them so.  I believe those who expect $1.00-$1.50 per mini are going to be disappointed.


			
				Felon said:
			
		

> If you think your copyright is violated, you have to sit down with your lawyer and point out all the critical points of similiarity between your creation and that of the infringing party and put all that in your cease-and-desist. It's really in the hands of whoever presides over your case to decide whether or not your case holds water.




Exactly.  I doubt it's worth the time of WotC to worry about a "shades of gray" case from Reaper.  That's especially true if they want to avoid creating bad feelings in some of their fan base.


			
				Twowolves said:
			
		

> If you took 3 minutes to visit their website, you can do a search of their entire mini catalog and see what they have, and they don't limit the search criteria to names and catalog numbers. They have checkboxes for type, gender, number of legs, weapon uses, monster type, etc, IIRC.




I doubt very many know they want to search for a "Bathalian" when they want a Mind Flayer, or "Stone Lurker" when they want a Roper unless they've seen the figure before.  They might expect that an "Eye Beast" is a Beholder, a "Dung Beast" is an Otyugh if they see the name, but might not guess that when searching.  Still, a few will be obvious (such as the "Cloak Fiend."


----------



## jdrakeh (Mar 4, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Your hobby isn't dying, but it -is- changing. Will you change with it?




Change is anathema to many old school gaming fans. Such folks are simply unaccepting of the possibility that something postive may come from change. If anything is slowly killing our hobby, it't that kind of "line in the sand" closed-minded group think.


----------



## Felon (Mar 4, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> So, what exactly are you saying then? You claimed a 3rd party company couldn't make cloakers, mind flayers and glabrezu, and I pointed out that Reaper has, indeed, done just that without any sort of official license to do so. Would it help if they were able to market these minis under their "official" names? Probably, a little. But probably not enough to justify the expense of such a licensing deal.




Bingo! OK, good, right there, hold on for a sec!!! 

See, I was pondering whether the language of the SRD obviated the need to strike any kind of licensing deal. Thanks to the SRD, you can use a cloaker in a D20 book without negotiation. My question was, does the same hold true for a cloaker mini?

That's all.


----------



## Felon (Mar 4, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Indeed. Also, fighting multiple copies of a certain monster isn't always that fun or even playable -- five horned devils may sound like a fun encounter, but I defy you to actually keep track of every option those devils have access to. Most complex monsters simply aren't worth using with more than a pair, which also cuts down on needed miniatures.




True. Heck, fighting large groups of identical _simple_ monsters isn't really worth it either. Fighting an army of orcs may sound cool, but either that party will have AoE attacks that will annihlate them in short order, or the battle quickly degenerates into a dull slog of dice-rolling.


----------



## Felon (Mar 4, 2007)

bowbe said:
			
		

> Defied!
> 
> I'm soo going to run that encounter the weekend after next. The party is a juiced up bunch of selfish 20th+ level characters. It should be fun! I probably have enough painted metal reaper figs to fill the bill too. I go big tho. I have 3 of their fire giants and 3-4 frost giants from them or varous sundry other companies. I've got like 4 fire elementals and 6 or more different painted trolls and as many different painted ogres. It's all good and its great when all that stuff is laid out on the table.




Note that we were specifically talking about fighting large groups of identical opponents. Sounds like you're lining up a nice menagrie there.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> See, I was pondering whether the language of the SRD obviated the need to strike any kind of licensing deal. Thanks to the SRD, you can use a cloaker in a D20 book without negotiation. My question was, does the same hold true for a cloaker mini?




I remember some discussion early in the d20 period that the figure can match any description in the SRD.  If it's a monster created for D&D than, any elements of a WotC/TSR picture you copy that aren't mentioned in the SRD is treading on very questionable ground.

I think this is less of an issue now, though.  IIRC, at that time almost no descriptions were in the SRD.  I think that's been corrected.


----------



## rgard (Mar 4, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I agree they'll be competitive, but many here might not consider them so.  I believe those who expect $1.00-$1.50 per mini are going to be disappointed.
> 
> 
> Exactly.  I doubt it's worth the time of WotC to worry about a "shades of gray" case from Reaper.  That's especially true if they want to avoid creating bad feelings in some of their fan base.
> ...




I agree that the names can be less than helpful when locating the D&D equivalent, but the pics on Reaper's site are good and it's clear to see the Bathalian is intended to represent the Mind Flayer.

Just takes a little bit of work.

That said, if somebody unfamiliar with this discussion or with Reaper minis posted a note in EN World asking about Mind Flayer figs, I'm certain he or she would get pointed in the right direction.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 4, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I doubt very many know they want to search for a "Bathalian" when they want a Mind Flayer, or "Stone Lurker" when they want a Roper unless they've seen the figure before.  They might expect that an "Eye Beast" is a Beholder, a "Dung Beast" is an Otyugh if they see the name, but might not guess that when searching.  Still, a few will be obvious (such as the "Cloak Fiend."




Sure, but having never visited the site before, I just stopped by the Reaper website, and clicked on the Fantasy Fig Finder link in the menu on the left.

I made a quick look through the "select a race" drop-down menu, picked out "Aberrations", and left everything else on "no preference". I found every miniature you mention above, including some extras such as "spider centuar" (Drider), "stone luker" (Roper), "mushroom men" (Mycanids), and "dung moster" (Otyugh).

It took me all of 30 seconds to find them.

Plus if you check off the minis you like in the little boxes on the left-hand side, you can hit the "view my list" button, which generates a printable list with the serial numbers, name of the mini, MSRP and a photo.  Print that out, and take it into you FLGS with you.

It certainly wasn't wasn't any more difficult than hunting DDM minis down on Ebay.


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 4, 2007)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> Sure, but having never visited the site before, I just stopped by the Reaper website, and clicked on the Fantasy Fig Finder link in the menu on the left.
> 
> I made a quick look through the "select a race" drop-down menu, picked out "Aberrations", and left everything else on "no preference". I found every miniature you mention above, including some extras such as "spider centuar" (Drider), "stone luker" (Roper), "mushroom men" (Mycanids), and "dung moster" (Otyugh).
> 
> ...





Ding ding ding!! We have a winner!


----------



## Delta (Mar 4, 2007)

Corrected link: http://www.reapermini.com/FantasyFigFinder

Edit: And I also notice you could use the "Well of Doom" as a very nice _Evard's black tentacles_ spell (saw it in a store once but couldn't figure out what anyone would use it for).


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 4, 2007)

Delta said:
			
		

> Corrected link: http://www.reapermini.com/FantasyFigFinder




Thanks.  I fixed the link above, as well...  sorry about that.


----------



## FATDRAGONGAMES (Mar 4, 2007)

I can't wait to see these. While I love to paint metal minis and have been doing it for almost three decades, I limit it pretty much to PCs at this point due to time constraints. Having prepainted plastic minis of creatures for our game was a joy when DDM came out. They've been great as far as the commons went, but I am not going to pluck down $40 for a plastic DDM beholder. Having access to prepainted plastic blister packed minis is a good thing IMHO. Gimme a cheap beholder (among other things) and I'll be a happy guy. As far as the plastic vs. metal debate, both have advantages. Straight weapons, finer details, etc for metal is obvious, but plastic can offer things like TRANSPARENCY (i.e. fire, ice, water elementals, gelatenous cubes, etc.) Why is this an "either/or" issue? We have a wide variety of both kinds on our gaming table and always will.


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 4, 2007)

FATDRAGONGAMES said:
			
		

> I can't wait to see these. While I love to paint metal minis and have been doing it for almost three decades, I limit it pretty much to PCs at this point due to time constraints. Having prepainted plastic minis of creatures for our game was a joy when DDM came out. They've been great as far as the commons went, but I am not going to pluck down $40 for a plastic DDM beholder. Having access to prepainted plastic blister packed minis is a good thing IMHO. Gimme a cheap beholder (among other things) and I'll be a happy guy. As far as the plastic vs. metal debate, both have advantages. Straight weapons, finer details, etc for metal is obvious, but plastic can offer things like TRANSPARENCY (i.e. fire, ice, water elementals, gelatenous cubes, etc.) Why is this an "either/or" issue? We have a wide variety of both kinds on our gaming table and always will.





At my table, we use metal minis painted by myself or the other resident fig painter to represent the PCs, and I use DDMs or painted Reaper figs for BBEGs. Unfortunately, with my current life schedule, I can't always get those BBEGs finished before "the big fight", so I have about a dozen half finished metal villian figs that I probably won't use again anytime soon. Plasitc prepainted boss monster/NPCs are a dream come true for me, and I'm not afraid of the rubber sword disease. It's fast and easy to fix with a glass of ice water and a hair dryer. The transparent plastics make the otherwise ho-hum elementals look awesome (espctially the fire elementals, which light up like a Christmas tree when you point a red laser at them from behind!), and the sculpts/paintjobs look "good enough" for the monster the PCs are about to grind into hamburger in 3-5 rounds. Not to mention the fact I can throw a few hundred plastics into a bin and they weigh about as much as 1/10th the same number of metal figs, which have to be stored separately in foam to keep them from chipping,


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Bingo! OK, good, right there, hold on for a sec!!!
> 
> See, I was pondering whether the language of the SRD obviated the need to strike any kind of licensing deal. Thanks to the SRD, you can use a cloaker in a D20 book without negotiation. My question was, does the same hold true for a cloaker mini?
> 
> That's all.




Oh I see. Well, like I said, they already have for metal minis and WotC has let it go. But that's also while Reaper's figs have been complimenting their products and not competing with them. They might try to play hardball if the new plastic line cuts significantly into the DDM sales.

I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure the SRD is talking about print material only. The beholder and the mind flayer are not in the SRD and are considered "product identity", but Reaper already has metal figs for them. At this time Reaper hasn't said they even intend to make individual plastic monsters, just squads, so the whole debate just might be moot.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 4, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> At this time Reaper hasn't said they even intend to make individual plastic monsters, just squads, so the whole debate just might be moot.




They said that they were going to offer both single minis and sets. It's in the announcement.


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 4, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> They said that they were going to offer both single minis and sets. It's in the announcement.




Yep, that's correct...



			
				Reaper said:
			
		

> Offered in an open, non-blind, non-random format, Legendary Encounters™ prepainted plastic miniatures will be packaged using Reaper's standard blister card. *Both single and multiple piece packs will be offered.*


----------



## thalmin (Mar 4, 2007)

IIRC, WotC went after the d20 prepainted figs because the SRD applied to print. (Where do you print the d20 license on a figure?) But this only prohibits the naming of the figures. "Floating Eyes", "Eye Terrors", "Eye Beasts" and such have been put out by various companies since 1E came out.


----------



## D.Shaffer (Mar 4, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I agree they'll be competitive, but many here might not consider them so.  I believe those who expect $1.00-$1.50 per mini are going to be disappointed.



I think we can get a good idea of what the pricing is going to be just by looking at what other prepainted, non assorted games are giving us.

AT-43 is giving us 6 human troopers with alt heads for $25.
Battlefield Evolution is giving us a squad of 10 or so for $30. 

Expect similar prices.


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 5, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> They said that they were going to offer both single minis and sets. It's in the announcement.





Doh!! That's what I get for being too excited when I read the initial announcement. 

I was hoping for 8 figs for $20, but 10 for $30, if they are really good, is ok with me. I seem to recall Crystal Caste having 8-10 prepainted (poorly) metal minis for around $20-$24, with a d20 included.

http://www.crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CC&Category_Code=EM

Ok, these are 5 for $25, and include 5 d20s. I suppose plastics would be somewhat cheaper, especially if not hand painted.


----------



## rgard (Mar 5, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> Doh!! That's what I get for being too excited when I read the initial announcement.
> 
> I was hoping for 8 figs for $20, but 10 for $30, if they are really good, is ok with me. I seem to recall Crystal Caste having 8-10 prepainted (poorly) metal minis for around $20-$24, with a d20 included.
> 
> ...




Got my best d20 ever out of one of those sets.  The d20s have a 'skull' for the number '1'.  The blue one I have rolls just too many 20s.

I like Crystal Caste's PC figs (Elfsera 1 was the best of the lot.)  They are well done.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## MojoGM (Mar 5, 2007)

Well, despite what the anti-plastic miniature people say, I welcome this announcement and look forward to checking them out when they are released.


----------



## trancejeremy (Mar 5, 2007)

thalmin said:
			
		

> IIRC, WotC went after the d20 prepainted figs because the SRD applied to print. (Where do you print the d20 license on a figure?) But this only prohibits the naming of the figures. "Floating Eyes", "Eye Terrors", "Eye Beasts" and such have been put out by various companies since 1E came out.




IIRC, all WOTC did was add a provision to the d20 license prohibiting the use of the d20 logo on a product with minis. Specifically:

"No Covered Product may include “Miniatures"

In response to Holistic's prepainted minis that came with included stat cards and thus has the d20 logo on the boxed set.


----------



## Thunderfoot (Mar 5, 2007)

D.Shaffer said:
			
		

> I think we can get a good idea of what the pricing is going to be just by looking at what other prepainted, non assorted games are giving us.
> 
> AT-43 is giving us 6 human troopers with alt heads for $25.
> Battlefield Evolution is giving us a squad of 10 or so for $30.
> ...



Yeah, but are those figs plastic or resin - it does make a difference.


----------



## crazy_cat (Mar 5, 2007)

D.Shaffer said:
			
		

> I think we can get a good idea of what the pricing is going to be just by looking at what other prepainted, non assorted games are giving us.
> 
> AT-43 is giving us 6 human troopers with alt heads for $25.
> Battlefield Evolution is giving us a squad of 10 or so for $30.
> ...



Price will, as I've said before, be the deciding factor for me - assuming the quality is at least comparable to that of DDMs.

If the price per mini is $3-4 as you're suggesting (so approx £2 maybe here in the UK) then that is about double what I pay for DDMs. 

I might pick up a few unique sculpts if I really like them, but otherwise I think WOTC will continue to get the bulk of my custom.


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 5, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> I was hoping for 8 figs for $20, but 10 for $30, if they are really good, is ok with me. I seem to recall Crystal Caste having 8-10 prepainted (poorly) metal minis for around $20-$24, with a d20 included.
> 
> http://www.crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CC&Category_Code=EM
> 
> Ok, these are 5 for $25, and include 5 d20s. I suppose plastics would be somewhat cheaper, especially if not hand painted.




On the other hand, note that they also have packs of unpainted plastics -- Orcs with swords (could pass for a falchion  ), spears or bows, and dwarves with axes, spears or crossbows -- that come in packs of 5 for $4.

All you'd need to do is machine paint them, and you'd probably have something close to what Reaper's planning.


----------



## rgard (Mar 5, 2007)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> On the other hand, note that they also have packs of unpainted plastics -- Orcs with swords (could pass for a falchion  ), spears or bows, and dwarves with axes, spears or crossbows -- that come in packs of 5 for $4.
> 
> All you'd need to do is machine paint them, and you'd probably have something close to what Reaper's planning.




 Oh yes, forgot about my painting machine in back yard!!!


----------



## D.Shaffer (Mar 5, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> Yeah, but are those figs plastic or resin - it does make a difference.



Both games mentioned use plastic.


----------



## kenobi65 (Mar 5, 2007)

crazy_cat said:
			
		

> If the price per mini is $3-4 as you're suggesting (so approx £2 maybe here in the UK) then that is about double what I pay for DDMs.




Well, given that, IME, Reaper's unpainted pewter minis retail for US$4 or more, I just have a hard time picturing them selling painted plastic ones for less than that.


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 5, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> Oh yes, forgot about my painting machine in back yard!!!




What, you don't have one?  


Sorry...  I meant: If reaper produced something similar, all they'd need to do is machine paint them.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 5, 2007)

My key is price to a degree, but more important is quality of paint job.  The DDM figures are mostly poorly painted.  If there are good monsters with a quality paint job I'll be all over this.  PC minis will probably still be reaper metal.


----------



## Holy Bovine (Mar 5, 2007)

Mighty Halfling said:
			
		

> Heck, if they were smart, they'd sell them for $1 each and try to get someplace like Dollar General to buy into them.




And not make a single penny of profit.  but profit is the worst thing any gaming company can make, right?


----------



## rgard (Mar 5, 2007)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> What, you don't have one?
> 
> 
> Sorry...  I meant: If reaper produced something similar, all they'd need to do is machine paint them.




My apologies, I was naughty!  Agreed, hopefully they have a machine to do this!


----------



## Bagpuss (Mar 5, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> The DDM figures are mostly poorly painted.




They are considerably better painted than Mage Knight figures, and many GW figures I've seen fielded by teenagers.


----------



## ehren37 (Mar 5, 2007)

wayne62682 said:
			
		

> This is great news, IF they sell these at reasonable prices.  My biggest issue with DDM isn't so much the randomness, but the fact that the classifications affect the price.  If a figure, even a normal-sized one, is "Rare" then it sells for about $20 if not more.  *Twenty bucks for a small plastic figure with an amateur paintjob*!




VERY few rares go for 20. The average is about 7 bucks for a new set. 3-4 if its humanoid, more if its larger.


----------



## ehren37 (Mar 5, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> Because it isn't.  This so called "secondary market" dpesn't really exist - it isn't economical, practical, or even viable.  I went on some of these secondary sites...no one was selling a horde of orcs or a group of zombies, or large lots of kobolds or zombies.
> 
> The secondary market doesn't really exist.




Auggie will likely ship overseas if you shoot him an email.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Orc-Savage-x10-...17251311QQihZ005QQcategoryZ2544QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Strahd-Zombie-4...86964138QQihZ011QQcategoryZ2537QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kobold-Soldier-...82378527QQihZ011QQcategoryZ2544QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kobold-Miner-38...84503424QQihZ011QQcategoryZ2544QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty (Mar 5, 2007)

I'm glad to see Reaper adapting. I predicted that the plastic DDM market would seriously cut into their sales and I stand by that prediction. Detail is great, but it pales in comparison to being cost effective and pre-painted. DDMs are for the masses, and that will crush a niche market (or at least make it unprofitable) over time.

The key will be price. If Reaper's prices are anywhere near what they're charging for metal, this is a dead duck before it ever gets off the ground. I can almost guarantee they will be more expensive than the average per unit DDM, but probably cheaper than the secondary market DDMs.

I think the real news is that the line will be non-random. That's a direct shot across the bow of WotC and it's a savvy business move that capitalizes on DDM's primary weakness (being random).

If I can buy 20 orcs with a leader and a shaman (i.e., an orc warband pack) for only moderately more money than if I bought them off Ebay, I'd make the switch to Reaper.

I'd be happy if it curbs the sometimes highway robbery prices that I see on Ebay. Competition is always good.


----------



## El Ravager (Mar 5, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> And I'll stand by my monsters statement.  You are correct that the metal adventurers sell the best for Reaper, but one of the things that they can exploit is the 'percieved lack of baseline monsters' that seems to be the major (or at least one of) complaints from otherwise happy customers.  I think its a darn shifty and pretty awesome move on their part, and if successful can once again establish them as THE niche mini retailer.





Here is another thing to consider with that.  Adventurers are more fun to paint. I don't mind painting up one adventurer that I am going to use for my character, or a hand full that I will use for some important NPC.  

Random dudes and mooks and some monsters aren't as much fun to paint lots and lots of.  I see myself spending money on prepainted things like orcs and monsters and such, but also buying and painting metal minis for my own PC or special chracters and so on.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Mar 5, 2007)

ehren37 said:
			
		

> Auggie will likely ship overseas if you shoot him an email.




I'll have to do that - Unhallowed is around the corner, and as usual I want to fill the ranks with what I get on eBay.com. Since he says he won't ship overseas on his shop site, I never bothered to ask. But I'll write him now and ask about it.



			
				Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> And not make a single penny of profit.  but profit is the worst thing any gaming company can make, right?




Yes, it is. It seems that if you make profit, you'll lose all your fans!   



			
				thalmin said:
			
		

> IIRC, WotC went after the d20 prepainted figs because the SRD applied to print. (Where do you print the d20 license on a figure?) But this only prohibits the naming of the figures. "Floating Eyes", "Eye Terrors", "Eye Beasts" and such have been put out by various companies since 1E came out.




Yeah, I doubt that this will keep anyone from making those minis with generalized names (and without any actual D&D reference).


----------



## Sammael (Mar 5, 2007)

Auggie will ship abroad, but you have to pay a huge amount for shipping ($30?) in advance, which he will reimburse after he ships and thus finds out the actual cost of shipping to your location. At least that was his policy the last time I inquired.


----------



## MerricB (Mar 6, 2007)

The first wave is up:
http://www.reapermini.com/
20001_____ Skeleton Swordsmen (3) $ 5.79
20002_____ Skeleton Archers (3) $ 5.79
20003_____ Skeleton Spearmen (3) $ 5.79
20004_____ Skeleton Swordsman $ 1.99
20005_____ Skeleton Archer $ 1.99 
20006_____ Skeleton Spearman $ 1.99
20007_____ Orc Warriors with Scimitars (3) $ 6.99
20008_____ Orc Archers (3) $ 6.99
20009_____ Orc Spearmen (3) $ 6.99
20010_____ Orc Warrior with Scimitar $ 2.49
20011_____ Orc Archer $ 2.49
20012_____ Orc Spearman $ 2.49
20013_____ Cave Troll $ 3.99
20014_____ Ogre Chieftain $ 4.99 
20015_____ Minotaur of the Maze $ 5.99

Cheers!


----------



## rgard (Mar 6, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> The first wave is up:
> http://www.reapermini.com/
> 20001_____ Skeleton Swordsmen (3) $ 5.79
> 20002_____ Skeleton Archers (3) $ 5.79
> ...




Nice prices!!!


----------



## MerricB (Mar 6, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> Nice prices!!!




They're not bad. You can probably get such minis cheaper on the DDM secondary market during their release period. (Orcs and skeletons for $0.50 each; Trolls and ogres for about $2 each).

Cheers!


----------



## smootrk (Mar 6, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> They're not bad. You can probably get such minis cheaper on the DDM secondary market during their release period. (Orcs and skeletons for $0.50 each; Trolls and ogres for about $2 each).
> 
> Cheers!



Then again, these are Mfg Suggested Retail (or I assume)... so many folks will be finding these with at least some discount off that price (although I know many local shops charge full retail (or even higher) for most offerings - silly business practice IMO).


----------



## thedungeondelver (Mar 6, 2007)

Okay.

I voiced my concern at Reaper and two very nice posts by ReaperClarke and ReaperBryan have definitely gone a great distance towards allaying my fears:

This post and this post both answer my concerns.  A lot of them, anyway.  The important ones.

So now we wait and see how the minis look.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 6, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> The first wave is up...




Prices are awesome, but I want to see some samples. Come on Reaper, throw us a bone!


----------



## Felon (Mar 6, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> Nice prices!!!





			
				JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> Prices are awesome



???

Actually, I'm pretty disappointed with those prices for the rank-and-file troops. eBay DDM orcs and skellies are much cheaper. The higher-end minis (ogre chieftan, maze minotaur) are in the pricing territory of DDM rares, or out-of-circulation DDM uncommons. Of course, all of this may be redeemed somewhat by the actual sculpts. But how good do I need a skeleton spearman to look?


----------



## Aus_Snow (Mar 6, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> The important ones.



Did you get an answer on which country the manufacturing will take place / is taking place in? I didn't see it, but I was trying to scan quickly, so my apologies if I simply missed it.

I really _don't_ want to go into any related questions/issues/other to do with that, but I would just like to know the country. That's all.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Mar 6, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> They're not bad. You can probably get such minis cheaper on the DDM secondary market during their release period. (Orcs and skeletons for $0.50 each; Trolls and ogres for about $2 each).
> 
> Cheers!




After shipping & handling costs from the secondary market, the prices will probably be about the same. At that point, Reaper wins out (for me) because I can order it through my gamestore. No PayPal, no bidding, no S&H!


----------



## thedungeondelver (Mar 6, 2007)

Aus_Snow said:
			
		

> Did you get an answer on which country the manufacturing will take place / is taking place in? I didn't see it, but I was trying to scan quickly, so my apologies if I simply missed it.
> 
> I really _don't_ want to go into any related questions/issues/other to do with that, but I would just like to know the country. That's all.




I did not.  I had bigger and more emotionally troubling fish to fry.    I'd wager it's in the PacRim though.

ALTHOUGH -

With their statement that they have streamlined production is it that out of place to speculate that perhaps they're doing the minis themselves?


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 6, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> Actually, I'm pretty disappointed with those prices for the rank-and-file troops. eBay DDM orcs and skellies are much cheaper. The higher-end minis (ogre chieftan, maze minotaur) are in the pricing territory of DDM rares, or out-of-circulation DDM uncommons. Of course, all of this may be redeemed somewhat by the actual sculpts. But how good do I need a skeleton spearman to look?




The cheapest orc archer I found was at least $7, upwards of $20 (!!) for "buy it now" auctions on eBay. Almost as bad for orc spearmen. Under $2 each for packs of rank and file aren't bad in my eyes, assuming of course, they look good. And no shipping and handling gouging!


----------



## DaveMage (Mar 6, 2007)

Prices look slightly higher than DDM, but the non-random factor is very nice.

Of course, I have to *see* them before I can truly compare.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 6, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> Actually, I'm pretty disappointed with those prices for the rank-and-file troops. eBay DDM orcs and skellies are much cheaper.




Of course they are. Its a collectable game with a lot of commons on the market. Comparing the Reaper Miniature prices to a collectable game sold on eBay is pretty misguided. Looking at those prices compared to metal minis is a better perception of their value. I'll be first in line when these come out.


----------



## Felon (Mar 6, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> Of course they are. Its a collectable game with a lot of commons on the market. Comparing the Reaper Miniature prices to a collectable game sold on eBay is pretty misguided. Looking at those prices compared to metal minis is a better perception of their value.




For someone using the minis for their role-playing, the fact that the mini is part of a collectable game is irrelevant. Comparing the cost of a pre-painted plastic mini to that of a similar pre-painted plastic minis is pretty reasonable. Saying they should only compared to unpainted metal minis is rather nonsensical. This is about what's the better value for the customer, after all.


----------



## Felon (Mar 6, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> The cheapest orc archer I found was at least $7, upwards of $20 (!!) for "buy it now" auctions on eBay. Almost as bad for orc spearmen. Under $2 each for packs of rank and file aren't bad in my eyes, assuming of course, they look good. And no shipping and handling gouging!




Here's an orc with a spear for 34 cents: 
http://cgi.ebay.com/D-D-Miniatures-...QQcategoryZ2537QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

As for orc archers, you've basically picked out the one mini that's hardest to come by as they are only found in Harbinger, the first set. They don't make more because, well, orcs are berserker melee critters who stink at archery. But hey, if you need orc archers, sounds like Reaper has an edge--at least until WotC releases some in a future set. If you want some cheaper than the Reaper minis, here's a set of three:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Orc-Archers-d20...tcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'm not crazy about shipping costs, but sales tax is no picnic either where I live, and at least with shipping I can get a break by buying in bulk.


----------



## Thunderfoot (Mar 6, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Okay.
> 
> I voiced my concern at Reaper and two very nice posts by ReaperClarke and ReaperBryan have definitely gone a great distance towards allaying my fears:
> 
> ...



I'm glad the guys at Reaper got back to you on this.   I'm also glad to hear that they aren't dropping out of the metal biz anytime soon.  BUT...I'm also itching to get my hands on the plastics.


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 6, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Here's an orc with a spear for 34 cents:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/D-D-Miniatures-...QQcategoryZ2537QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> As for orc archers, you've basically picked out the one mini that's hardest to come by as they are only found in Harbinger, the first set. They don't make more because, well, orcs are berserker melee critters who stink at archery. But hey, if you need orc archers, sounds like Reaper has an edge--at least until WotC releases some in a future set. If you want some cheaper than the Reaper minis, here's a set of three:
> ...




First off, that's not an orc with a spear, it's an orc with a stone axe, and not in armor either. Secondly, the archers you linked to are about the same price as the reaper plastics, counting shipping. 

I didn't go out looking for expensive examples of DDM figures. I actually did this sort of search 6 months ago, because I ran Sons of Grummsh and wanted accurate minis to represent the foes in that module (plus the mods I made to the adventure). I ended up using the hobgoblin archers instead, and I was lucky to have a couple of orc spearmen (spearorcs??) from the 2-3 packs of Harbinger I had bought back in the day. I recall King Obould ran me about $10, and about $17 for a wyvern, but I did get some orc sergeants and orc reavers or thugs or something relatively cheaply, including a harbinger orc warrior that one seller threw in as a bonus after having screwed up my original order.

At any rate, I feel your sales tax pain (9-3/4%), but I only have a couple of hobby shops within about 300 miles, so I take the hit sometimes to throw them some business.

When all is said and done, I think the big factor will be the detail/paint jobs. DDMs have gotten MUCH better over the past 12-18 months. Hopefully Reaper won't have the same learning curve.


----------



## MerricB (Mar 6, 2007)

Twowolves said:
			
		

> I didn't go out looking for expensive examples of DDM figures. I actually did this sort of search 6 months ago, because I ran Sons of Grummsh and wanted accurate minis to represent the foes in that module (plus the mods I made to the adventure). I ended up using the hobgoblin archers instead, and I was lucky to have a couple of orc spearmen (spearorcs??) from the 2-3 packs of Harbinger I had bought back in the day. I recall King Obould ran me about $10, and about $17 for a wyvern, but I did get some orc sergeants and orc reavers or thugs or something relatively cheaply, including a harbinger orc warrior that one seller threw in as a bonus after having screwed up my original order.




Heh. I actually had all the minis I needed when I ran _Sons of Gruumsh_ already. The joys of buying lot and lots of DDM.

A mini I don't use today is one I can use down the line.

Cheers!


----------



## Kunimatyu (Mar 6, 2007)

Wow -- those prices are nice!

The prices for Larges -- $4-$6 -- are great, compared with Large Rare prices (and many large uncommon prices on the seconday market).

If Reaper can sell a mindflayer ("Bathalian", sorry) for $3-4 and a Beholder or Dragon for $10, Wizards is going to have a very serious problem, because people buy packs for chase rares, and if the chase rares are available from Reaper for <$10, people won't really buy packs. Even if Reaper only focuses on fantasy classics and never touches monsters even close to unique WotC IP (assuming you can copyright an eyeball monster when they've been in tons of videogames and other miniatures lines....), WotC won't be able to ignore them, and will have to adjust their business plans accordingly.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 6, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> For someone using the minis for their role-playing, the fact that the mini is part of a collectable game is irrelevant. Comparing the cost of a pre-painted plastic mini to that of a similar pre-painted plastic minis is pretty reasonable. Saying they should only compared to unpainted metal minis is rather nonsensical. This is about what's the better value for the customer, after all.




True. Regardless of what its intended use is is certainly irrelevant. But comparing the price of a product that you purchase on the shelf at a local hobby store to something you can get on eBay is ludicrous.

Because I've seen Ptolus go for $50 on eBay does that mean if my company releases a 640 page full color hardcover at Gencon this year we should charge $50? Um, no. What company on earth looks at eBay as a bar to set their prices against? And what buyer would expect prices to be similar to those offered on a secondary market?

The fact that Reaper has the prices as low as they do and as comparable to what is on eBay is nothing short of amazing to me. I applaud them for what they are doing, hope they succeed, and will buy in droves.

Edit: provided they don't suck of course...


----------



## MerricB (Mar 6, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> Because I've seen Ptolus go for $50 on eBay does that mean if my company releases a 640 page full color hardcover at Gencon this year we should charge $50? Um, no. What company on earth looks at eBay as a bar to set their prices against? And what buyer would expect prices to be similar to those offered on a secondary market?




One of the oddities of the situation is that in the non-random minis business, you _do_ have to pay attention to the secondary market, because that's what you're competing against. 

Finding a lone copy of Ptolus for $50 is a big difference from seeing hundreds and hundreds of DDM figures being sold on e-bay for not very much. The first is an aberration that can be ignored. The second is competition.

Cheers!


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 6, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> But hey, if you need orc archers, sounds like Reaper has an edge--at least until WotC releases some in a future set.




Which is why I like Reaper doing this (and am glad the prices are as competitive as they are).  Choice is always good.  When I was trying to find a halfling wizard miniature it was nice to be able to look through Reaper, WotC and other miniature companies (and still didn't find quite the right figure for me).

DDM will probably always have the largest selection.  However, a few years from now (assuming both lines are successful) you'll occasionally have the situation where DDM has the exact figure you want, but a very expensive OOP version, and Reaper has one that isn't perfect but cheaper.



> I'm not crazy about shipping costs, but sales tax is no picnic either where I live...



Which is why I love living in Delaware   I still feel like I'm being ripped off when I buy things in other states.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 6, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> One of the oddities of the situation is that in the non-random minis business, you _do_ have to pay attention to the secondary market, because that's what you're competing against.




This is all provided we are talking miniatures of the same quality, but the eBay market is a small slice and won't determine the outcome of either products success. The price disparity between eBay and what Reaper advertised is negligible even now. Plus, when Reaper's sets come out I'm sure you'll be able to get them on eBay for around 30% off. Do you think Reaper's minis will sell for shelf cost on eBay?

The war will be determined in game stores on the concept of buy what you want vs. buy what you get. They may not get your business or other eBay diehards, but they'll certainly get the business of casual purchasers like myself who don't really want to be burdened with eBay. I'd wager my demographic as the casual buyer is substantially larger then yours and provided we get good quality at the advertised prices, I agree that they will quickly become the most popular prepainted plastic miniatures line on the market.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Mar 6, 2007)

Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't do DDM), but the Reaper line would seem to me to be no competition at all for the DDM market.  Those buying large quantities of the randomized minis fall into three camps: the collector, the competitor, and the gamer.  The collector will still have to buy either on the primary or secondary markets.  The competitor that plays DDM in tournaments or game stores, etc., is still going to have to have the 'official' figure, right?  I mean, the official imprimatur is the only difference between a chunk of pretty plastic and a cardboard token that says 'Beholder' on it.  The serious DDM player isn't going to be satisfied with a Reaper alternative even if it were sanctioned.

That leaves the gamer, the RPG folks and the casual DDM player.  But those aren't generally the primary market for the minis; they're more likely to accept alternatives and shop on the secondary market.  That's the crowd that Reaper is going after.


----------



## Felon (Mar 6, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Heh. I actually had all the minis I needed when I ran _Sons of Gruumsh_ already. The joys of buying lot and lots of DDM. A mini I don't use today is one I can use down the line.




Yeah, I actually have a big ziploc marked "ORC HORDE". I was almost able to use every mini recommended in SoG. The orc archers got me.


----------



## Felon (Mar 6, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> This is all provided we are talking miniatures of the same quality, but the eBay market is a small slice and won't determine the outcome of either products success. The price disparity between eBay and what Reaper advertised is negligible even now. Plus, when Reaper's sets come out I'm sure you'll be able to get them on eBay for around 30% off. Do you think Reaper's minis will sell for shelf cost on eBay?




I hope they don't, but they're buying wholesale and the MSRP represents their profit margin. That may prove the downside of non-randomization: you don't get super-expensive rares, but no ultra-cheap 25 cent commons either, because the retailer's supplies will actually be well-rounded (i.e. they're not forced to take on piles of commons in order to get a good supply of rares).

It should not be disregarded that the prices of individual DDM minis are completely arbitrary. In fact, right now, there is a very odd situation with the DDM minis. At one time, it was economical to buy a complete set, which you could get for under $200. When WotC started price-jacking, the costs of buying boxes went up, the prices of cases went up, and the prices of buying the complete set went up. HOWEVER, the price of individual minis within from the set remained the same. So, when I went shopping for Unhalloweds, I had the option of paying $220 plus another $30 or so in shipping, or I could just buy them up individually. I actually came in at $190, including shipping and buying multiples of most commons and uncommons (dire wolves a-go-go). 

Now, in regards to the issue with the orc archers that Twowolves brought up, there is a question about how long Reaper will keep a given set of minis in circulation. Will there be a point where they say "OK, we gotta move some resources from making orcs and skeletons and put them into new sets". Then will we be looking at $7 Reaper archers?

On a final note, I think it is a big error to refer to the secondary market as a "small slice". How many folks do you really think get their individual minis from local vendor in a strip mall? Those eBay shops represent retailers with a huge selection and they sell to a much broader customer base than the strip mall's walk-in crowd You think they don't buy more cases?


----------



## Felon (Mar 6, 2007)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't do DDM), but the Reaper line would seem to me to be no competition at all for the DDM market.




"No competition"? I'm afraid you do stand corrected, at least insofar as saying the gaming demographic is not a significant chunk of DDM's customer base. It is, and that's why crappy little stirges were so damn hard to get a hold of. Gamers went nuts to amass their bloodsucking swarms. Looks like we're going to have a run on bats now with Unhallowed, I guess because they can stand in for stirges. 

Merric, are the bats any good for skirmishing?


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 6, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> "No competition"? I'm afraid you do stand corrected, at least insofar as saying the gaming demographic is not a significant chunk of DDM's customer base. It is, and that's why crappy little stirges were so damn hard to get a hold of. Gamers went nuts to amass their bloodsucking swarms. I think we're going to have a run on bats now with Unhallowed, just because they can stand in for stirges.




But I don't see any Reaper stirges to take that part of the market.  So far Reaper's line consists of things pretty much everyone will use regularly.  We have skeletons and orcs, with a troll, ogre and minotaur.  All things that aren't hard to get for reasonable prices from the secondary market for DDM.

I don't doubt we'll see some more adventurous figures as the line advances.  I doubt we'll see too many specialized figures until the line is a proven success.  

As for stirges, WotC pointed out the reason they were uncommon rather than common was because the production was challenging (as it is for all their tiny figures).  I doubt those challenges disappear for Reaper.  So, if they do produce them, they will likely be more expensive than the standard orcs.

Still, I agree the gamer market is a significant chunk of DDM's audience (at place it at about 2/3, remembering that many of that 2/2 falls into multiple categories).  However, to be competitive, Reaper has to give something significant that you can't get from DDM.


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Mar 6, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> But I don't see any Reaper stirges to take that part of the market.  So far Reaper's line consists of things pretty much everyone will use regularly.  We have skeletons and orcs, with a troll, ogre and minotaur.  All things that aren't hard to get for reasonable prices from the secondary market for DDM.









02691: Stirges

The Auld Grump


----------



## Felon (Mar 6, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> Still, I agree the gamer market is a significant chunk of DDM's audience (at place it at about 2/3, remembering that many of that 2/2 falls into multiple categories).  However, to be competitive, Reaper has to give something significant that you can't get from DDM.




Very good point about the customer base crossing multiple categories. 

My hope for Reaper is that they stop competing with DDM's commonest of the common minis and start cranking out the stuff DDM confines to rares, or doesn't do at all. 

I really, really, really thought it was stupidity personified to see a clay golem going for $40 and more. Think about that for a second. Think about how little there is to sculpting a creature that is just a walking chunk of clay in a crude semblance of a humanoid. Think about how meager the paintjob is on a featureless creature that would be monochromatic if not for its superfluous loincloth. And even by those standards, the actual mini was still pretty lousy with its steams standing out from a mile away. Forty bucks.

That's what I want to see Reaper put an end to. That and WotC simply not doing certain minis that are in demand and probably not that challenging to give us.


----------



## Sammael (Mar 6, 2007)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> That leaves the gamer, the RPG folks and the casual DDM player.  But those aren't generally the primary market for the minis; they're more likely to accept alternatives and shop on the secondary market.  That's the crowd that Reaper is going after.



Actually, while we don't have the accurate data (and never will), the general consensus is that role-players make the vast majority of DDM purchases. Skirmish is not all that popular, and true collectors are few.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 6, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> On a final note, I think it is a big error to refer to the secondary market as a "small slice".




I could be wrong, but I can't see eBay accounting for more then 1/4 of the DDM sales (even 1/4 seems a lot to me). Maybe I'm wrong, who knows? The point I'm trying to make is that the success of either product line has nothing substantial to do with eBay.


----------



## Holy Bovine (Mar 6, 2007)

Prices are ok for the skeletons and Orcs.  I will get some Orc Archers as that is an impossible mini to get for any reasonable price from DDM.  The rest probably not as I have tons of Orcs,  Skeletons, Ogres and minotaurs.


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 6, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> The first wave is up:
> http://www.reapermini.com/




Those prices are a little more than I'd _hoped_ for , but at the same time they're a bit less than I expected...  Roughly along the lines, if not just a bit cheaper, than most unpainted metal minis.   If the quality is reasonable, I'll definitely be buying these.



			
				thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> I had bigger and more emotionally troubling fish to fry.




Apparently.  So much so that the answers given caused you forget your telltale font in your previous post...



			
				thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Okay.
> 
> I voiced my concern at Reaper and two very nice posts by ReaperClarke and ReaperBryan have definitely gone a great distance towards allaying my fears:


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 6, 2007)

Those prices look nice to me, if the paint job and sculpt quality is better than the DDM, it would be hard to be worse though, I'll be buying these left and right.  I don't buy DDM since I always seem to get crappy packs with the rare being a Warforged or some crap like that.


----------



## Falstaff (Mar 6, 2007)

This is just what I've been looking for. I have zero interest in buying metal minis and painting them and I have zero interest in buying randomly packaged minis from WotC.

Thank you Reaper! I will be buying lots of these.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Mar 6, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> The first wave is up:
> http://www.reapermini.com/
> 20001_____ Skeleton Swordsmen (3) $ 5.79
> 20002_____ Skeleton Archers (3) $ 5.79
> ...




Do we know what type of bases these will be on? I'm curious if they'll be compatible with Warlord right out of the box.

I'm also wondering if we'll see a master book with all orcs (or skeletons) in it.


----------



## KB9JMQ (Mar 6, 2007)

Prices seem ok. Can't wait to see what they look like.
Any idea on how long a production run will be?
That is a good starter but I already have all the orcs and skeletons I need from my DDM addiction so this first set doesn't really do me any good.


----------



## ehren37 (Mar 6, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Do we know what type of bases these will be on? I'm curious if they'll be compatible with Warlord right out of the box.




From what I gather, yes. They said you could use them in warlord tournaments, so I'd expct square bases.


----------



## WhatGravitas (Mar 6, 2007)

Prices are okayish. Highly dependant on the quality of the paintjobs - if they're DDM-like, then I'd say "Snatch it, grab as many as needed!".


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 6, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> The first wave is up:
> http://www.reapermini.com/
> 
> 20015_____ Minotaur of the Maze $ 5.99
> ...




Hah! what's really funny is that I just bought a Cygnar Starter Box from the Warmachine Line and assembled all of the included metal minis. Now typically I have alove hate relationship with metals, I love the way that some of them look, but I hate pinning. Now that I've gotten ahold of some sculpy / putty, I don't mind pinning nearly as much so I went on a pinning spree with a bunch of the older metals that have been sitting in my closet. 

The metal version of the Minotaur of the Maze was the first thing I pinned and I gotta say that's a good looking sculpt. If they are actually using the same sculpt, even if it's a halfway decent paint job, it's gonna rawk. 

Really looking forward to what some of these paint jobs are going to look like. Now that the prices have been revealed I can easily see myself picking up pack after pack of plastic orcs and skeletons. As well as some of the other monster types, If WOTC had been the one doing this they would have gotten my money, but since Reaper is doing it and thier sculpts are lightyears better than WOTC's in general I'm more than glad to give Reaper my money.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 6, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> The first wave is up:
> http://www.reapermini.com/
> 20001_____ Skeleton Swordsmen (3) $ 5.79
> 20002_____ Skeleton Archers (3) $ 5.79
> ...




Also, just from a quick comparison, these plastics are $2.00 - $1.50 cheaper than thier unpainted metal counterparts. Which is fine, I'll still buy metals for certain things but I think this is a fair price for plastics if they are using the same sculpts. All we need to see are the paint jobs on these things, if they are closer to the recent HeroClix paint jobs (Supernova, Armor Wars) then great, if they are closer to WOTC's DDM paint jobs, then well...that would actually suck.


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 6, 2007)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> The metal version of the Minotaur of the Maze was the first thing I pinned and I gotta say that's a good looking sculpt. If they are actually using the same sculpt, even if it's a halfway decent paint job, it's gonna rawk.




Assuming that the plastic scupts will be based the metal minis of the same or similar name, here's some of the current unpainted metal versions...

Skeletal Warriors:





Skeletal Archers:





Orc Archers:





Orc Spearmen:





Cave Troll:





Ogre Chieftain:





Minotaur of the Maze:


----------



## Holy Bovine (Mar 6, 2007)

Oh crap.  i forgot they like those boar headed orcs over at Reaper.  I never liked that version.


----------



## Darrell (Mar 6, 2007)

The prices are fine, as far as I can see; though, like so many others, I'm going to wait to see what the sculpts/paint jobs are like.  (If the Ogre Chieftain is anything _close_ to the sculpt from the metal mini pictured above, I'll be all _over_ it.)  I anticipate picking up several sets.  The larger ones (except for the ogre) aren't that interesting to me, as I already have a bunch of DDM trolls, and never use minotaurs (or pretty much any other Greek Myth-ish critters).

I was also wondering about the bases.  Square is fine by me, so long as they're one-inch squares on medium-size critters, and scaled upward from that point, so they match up with my DDMs.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 6, 2007)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> Oh crap.  i forgot they like those boar headed orcs over at Reaper.  I never liked that version.




Well, to give them credit, those aren't the only style of orc they've got over there...  though the boar heads do make them look distinctive.

There's also Sandra Garrity's black orc style:





And Bob Olley's slightly goblin-ish style:





I just picked the photos for the skeleton and orc multipacks...  They don't actually have anything listed as "orc swordsmen" or "skeleton spearmen" or the like.  It's mostly "orc w/ sword" and such.


----------



## KB9JMQ (Mar 6, 2007)

Darrell said:
			
		

> I was also wondering about the bases.  Square is fine by me, so long as they're one-inch squares on medium-size critters, and scaled upward from that point, so they match up with my DDMs.




I think this a very important issue. Have they stated the base sizes/scale yet?


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 6, 2007)

KB9JMQ said:
			
		

> I think this a very important issue. Have they stated the base sizes/scale yet?




Not that I've seen, but they would be crazy not to mimic DDM.


----------



## ehren37 (Mar 6, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> Not that I've seen, but they would be crazy not to mimic DDM.




Warlord (their skirmish game) uses square bases, so thats what I would expect.


----------



## MojoGM (Mar 6, 2007)

As soon as I see some actual pictures of these, I'll be pre-ordering like crazy...


----------



## rgard (Mar 6, 2007)

ehren37 said:
			
		

> From what I gather, yes. They said you could use them in warlord tournaments, so I'd expct square bases.




Yuck.  As I won't be playing Warlord anytime soon, I would have preferred round 25mm bases.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 6, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> 02691: Stirges




Sorry, I thought we were talking about Reaper's prepainted plastic miniatures here.  (Checks title of thread  )  

Metal miniatures are a different topic completely.  After all, with these in print, clearly the DDM stirges aren't in demand, right?


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 7, 2007)

Someone on that ridiculously long thread on Reaper's site had mentioned:



> Has anyone here seen what the Japanese are doing with Garashapon toys? You know, the little collectible sets of figures/houses/vehicles/monsters?
> 
> They are generally awesome, great paint, multipart, and some are even injection-molded in different colors before they are painted.
> 
> On the whole, they make even Rackham's pre-paints look silly.




I tried my Google Fu, but nothing. Anyone have an idea of what he is referring to?


----------



## Kunimatyu (Mar 7, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> Someone on that ridiculously long thread on Reaper's site had mentioned:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried my Google Fu, but nothing. Anyone have an idea of what he is referring to?




Little collectible figures of pet dogs, dinosaurs, anime characters, chibi Godzilla monsters etc. They are released in sets of about 12-16, and you never know which one you're going to get until you open the little 'egg' container. There's usually a 'super-rare' that occurs every fifty eggs or so.

I've seen some neat ones that friends in Japan have brought back, but I'll disagree on the quality -- it's a complete crap shoot whether they're well sculpted and painted or not, even moreso than DDM.

The only thing of note with these things is that I think a Huge set would be interesting to see using this model -- you'd have 'packs' containing one random Huge(and nothing else), with 'rare' Huges occuring in a 1:2 ratio with the 'uncommons'.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 7, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Little collectible figures of pet dogs, dinosaurs, anime characters, chibi Godzilla monsters etc. They are released in sets of about 12-16, and you never know which one you're going to get until you open the little 'egg' container. There's usually a 'super-rare' that occurs every fifty eggs or so.




Is there a link to these things anywhere? I'd like to see pics. These just like collectable toys?


----------



## Kunimatyu (Mar 7, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> Is there a link to these things anywhere? I'd like to see pics. These just like collectable toys?




Sure -- I've got some camera pics from the aforementioned Japan friends, I'll upload them to a photo site.

EDIT: Easier than I thought. Here's a nice representation: http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s219/Kunimatyu/IMG_0654.jpg


----------



## Shadowslayer (Mar 7, 2007)

> I think this a very important issue. Have they stated the base sizes/scale yet?




Hell, as long as they aren't those infernal broccoli bases, I'll be happy.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Mar 7, 2007)

I think we'll see square bases, both for Warlord compatibility and to visually differentiate the line from DDM.

The fact that you can use the orcs and skellies as Warlord grunts is very interesting...I wonder if Reaper will be the first company to produce a prepainted fantasy wargame(and yes, heroscape's cyborgs disqualify it)? One can't help but think that could be an excellent move for Reaper.


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Mar 7, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> Sorry, I thought we were talking about Reaper's prepainted plastic miniatures here.  (Checks title of thread  )
> 
> Metal miniatures are a different topic completely.  After all, with these in print, clearly the DDM stirges aren't in demand, right?




The statement was 'But I don't see *any* Reaper stirges to take that part of the market.'

Given that this was in a sub-discussion as to whether Reaper was likely to do SRD monsters, and given that they have only listed the first wave releases I feel that this is a fair example. Nor did you state 'plastic stirges' in any way. Looking at your previous post, Glyfair, I in fact do not believe that was the way you intended your statement to be taken at the time, not at all, at all. You were simply stating that Reaper has no stirges, and in fact they do.

And yes, there are indeed people who went and bought Reaper stirges, metal ones, rather than buying the overpriced plastics. There are a fair number of people who do not know that there _are_ alternatives, or assume, like you may have done, that there are none.

The Auld Grump


----------



## Thurbane (Mar 7, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> The war will be determined in game stores on the concept of buy what you want vs. buy what you get. They may not get your business or other eBay diehards, but they'll certainly get the business of casual purchasers like myself who don't really want to be burdened with eBay.



Can I get an Amen? That pretty much sums up my exact position...


----------



## JoeGKushner (Mar 7, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> Yuck.  As I won't be playing Warlord anytime soon, I would have preferred round 25mm bases.




Privateer Press: Round

Warlord: Square

Warhammer 40K: Round

Warhammer: Square

Confrontation: Square

Ragnarock: Square

I'm sure there are others out there but a good mix of square and round bases no?


----------



## JoeGKushner (Mar 7, 2007)

*The Real Orc Question!*

Will they be green or grey?

I hate the grey orcs but realize that those starting with 3.0 probably don't know that a lot of us prefer the geenies!


----------



## WhatGravitas (Mar 7, 2007)

Shadowslayer said:
			
		

> Hell, as long as they aren't those infernal broccoli bases, I'll be happy.



What the heck are "infernal broccoli bases"?


----------



## JoeGKushner (Mar 7, 2007)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> What the heck are "infernal broccoli bases"?




The Dark Haven line of Reaper's miniatures come connected to a base which has a 'grassy' texture sculpted onto it but it tends to look like broccoli and many, icluding myself, wish that the integrated bases all looked cooler instead of just select miniatures.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 7, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Easier than I thought. Here's a nice representation: http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s219/Kunimatyu/IMG_0654.jpg




Thanks! Those look pretty cool. Even from that pic I can see what you mean by hit or miss.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> On a final note, I think it is a big error to refer to the secondary market as a "small slice".




Well, considering the info posted by Dragon's Associate Editior in the thread on Wizard's Digital Initiative Moving Forward, I'll reaffirm and say it is a small size. Here's what he said:



			
				MKMcArtor said:
			
		

> But this much I know, from looking at Paizo's market research: An astonishingly high percentage of D&D players do not have reliable internet access, and even among those who do, many more do not always use their computers for their D&D games.
> 
> __________________
> Mike McArtor
> ...




If that's the case and I see no reason to believe that he's lying, that would certainly affirm that D&D players aren't using eBay a lot as they don't have reliable internet access. So yes, the numbers to back it up aren't perfect, but they can't be ignored.


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 7, 2007)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> What the heck are "infernal broccoli bases"?




Take a look at the base of the "Cave Troll" in the picture I posted above.

That's the infernal broccoli base...  A sort of rough-textured lump for the base, instead of a nice flat surface.


----------



## Dragon Snack (Mar 7, 2007)

'Broccoli bases' are mostly on older Reaper DHL minis.  The newer ones usually have sculpted integral bases and the Warlord minis have a separate square plastic base.

Note that Reaper hasn't said anything about what the bases will be, only that they will be usable as proxies for the Warlord game.  That lead people to assume square bases, however DHL minis are usable as proxies already and they are not on square bases (you have to put them on square bases to use them as proxies).

As for the 'secondary market'...

I did a quick search for completed auction on eBay for "D&D Miniatures" and found less than 7000 listed (it goes back a month).  Now that doesn't include store listings unless they were sold, but eBay stores are hard to seach anyway (meaning most people don't bother).  While a good source for those willing to use it, it isn't a huge market when compared with the multitude of LGSs.

There are also some people who just don't use eBay because of inaction.  It's easier to pick up something at the LGS when they drop by...



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Will they be green or grey?
> 
> I hate the grey orcs but realize that those starting with 3.0 probably don't know that a lot of us prefer the geenies!



Reapers Bull Orcs from their Warlord line are painted green in the rulebooks and on the data cards...






Yeah, no more 'you haven't posted' message...


----------



## rgard (Mar 7, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Will they be green or grey?
> 
> I hate the grey orcs but realize that those starting with 3.0 probably don't know that a lot of us prefer the geenies!




Or blue ala Heroscape!


----------



## rgard (Mar 7, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Privateer Press: Round
> 
> Warlord: Square
> 
> ...




Hi Joe, don't follow you on that one.  

Yes, there are a mix out there, but if I use a Warhammer fantasy fig, I mount the fig on a round base instead of the square one provided.  If the painted plastic Reaper fig comes already mounted to a square base, it's extra work to whack it off and put it on a round base.  

Now, somebody without my obsessive/compulsive need to have medium figs on round bases to match the DDMs won't have the same problem!    

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## hexgrid (Mar 7, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> I tried my Google Fu, but nothing. Anyone have an idea of what he is referring to?




The word to search for is gashapon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon


----------



## Shadowslayer (Mar 7, 2007)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> What the heck are "infernal broccoli bases"?




What they said.

My main beef with them is not so much the texture, but that the shapes are irregular and sometimes the bases are either the wrong shape, or too small for the mini in question. 

I've played on a table that used these things exclusively, and sometimes they topple over if you bump the table. (I fix that by glueing mine onto 7/8ths metal washers before I prime...that makes them nice and sturdy. But it'd be nice not to have to do that.)

heh...by the way, talk about coincidence. I finished one of those Cave Trolls a couple weeks ago. (Its an older sculpt and I found it on the post-New-Year sale peg in my FLGS) Its my sweetest paintjob yet. I secretly hope the factory paint's not as good as mine. (Does that make me a bad person???)


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 7, 2007)

Dragon Snack said:
			
		

> Reapers Bull Orcs from their Warlord line are painted green in the rulebooks and on the data cards...




Huh...  Now that I've seen them painted, I kind of like the boar-heads.


----------



## Dragon Snack (Mar 7, 2007)

My work here is done...


----------



## trancejeremy (Mar 7, 2007)

Hmmmm, now that I look around the Reaper site and message board, this really seems more like a thing for Warlord players, rather than D&D players.  I'm sure they won't mind if they sell to D&D players, but this looks like a way to let Warlord players fill up their armies with grunts on the (relative) cheap. Since it seems like pewter is getting to be more expensive.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 7, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Hmmmm, now that I look around the Reaper site and message board, this really seems more like a thing for Warlord players, rather than D&D players.




Nah. Orcs are orcs and skeletons are skeletons. They'll work fine for my games.


----------



## WhatGravitas (Mar 7, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> The Dark Haven line of Reaper's miniatures come connected to a base which has a 'grassy' texture sculpted onto it but it tends to look like broccoli and many, icluding myself, wish that the integrated bases all looked cooler instead of just select miniatures.



Ah, then they're called "infernal broccoli" - I just called them "annoying stuff"... thanks for clarification (this includes the other posters as well - this was just the first post).

Looking at the green boar head orcs... If they look somewhat similar to them, that'd be great. Okay, the boar head is a matter of taste, as well as the colour... but it isn't like they'll only produce orcs, right?

And for the Warlord aspect: Well, they don't have a "Warlord" on their head... so the packaging could say "Pink Pumpkin Punkband", and I won't care, as long as I get my minis.

I'm looking forward to these hopefully non-broccoli plastics


----------



## trancejeremy (Mar 8, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> Nah. Orcs are orcs and skeletons are skeletons. They'll work fine for my games.




Oh yeah, you could use Gummi Bears and they would be fine, really. 

And like I said



> I'm sure they won't mind if they sell to D&D players




But my point was, that doesn't seem to be their main focus. They aren't really trying to compete with Hasbro, but simply expand their own base of Warlord players.  

I mean, seriously, do they want to sell every GM $50 worth of orcs and skeletons, or try to get people hooked on their game and field $1000 armies? I'm sure they'll take the former, but the latter probably makes up their steady business.


----------



## Thunderfoot (Mar 8, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> <SNIP>
> I mean, seriously, do they want to sell every GM $50 worth of orcs and skeletons, or try to get people hooked on their game and field $1000 armies? I'm sure they'll take the former, but the latter probably makes up their steady business.



I don't know TJ, Reaper has always been very savvy when it comes to the buisness end of things.  Yeah the Warlords game will be their "focus" but you can bet nearly anything that they are hoping to ring in the sales with non DDM D&D RPGrs. (Dear God thats a mouthful and all I did was type it.).


----------



## Mr. Beef (Mar 8, 2007)

I just clicked on the link and the prices are rather reasonable for pre-painted, plastic generic enemy's for a game. 

I just wish they had pictures of what they looked like. I'm a so-so painter, but I really cannot get as detailed as some of the Warhammer people who have been doing it for years. If this goes gangbusters, then I would like to see them produce some pre-painted plastic hero mini's based on race. Like Elf Fighter (archer), Fighter (swordsman), Wizard as a three pack and another 3 pack of whatever class they might like to make. 

I'm thinking of getting some cheap Mage Knight Dungeon's Heroes mini's to represent the characters I'm making, and just popping them off the clix base. I just need to strip the paint off and repaint them and that's what's going to take time. 

There's some like the Warforged Artificer/Cleric I'm making that are DDM specific, but that's okay.

Just my 1/4 pound.

Mr. Beef


----------



## rgard (Mar 8, 2007)

Mr. Beef said:
			
		

> <SNIP>
> 
> I'm thinking of getting some cheap Mage Knight Dungeon's Heroes mini's to represent the characters I'm making, and just popping them off the clix base. I just need to strip the paint off and repaint them and that's what's going to take time.
> 
> ...




Hi Mr. Beef, shameless ebay plug here, but I do have the Painter's Edition Mageknight boosters in my ebay store:

http://stores.ebay.com/Blue-Star-Games

$2.99 each booster.  They come unpainted and not attached to the bases, but they are random.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Mr. Beef (Mar 8, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> Hi Mr. Beef, shameless ebay plug here, but I do have the Painter's Edition Mageknight boosters in my ebay store:
> 
> (Link snipped because I know there's a rule somewhere about posting links like that.)
> 
> ...




Rich, 

Thanks for the link. I had totally forgotten about that set. 

I might get some from you, but I just have to get over the fact that they are random, and find something to mount them on. I also have to see how much I'll have at the end of the month so I know how much I'll be able to spend.

Thanks again.

Mr. Beef


----------



## rgard (Mar 8, 2007)

Mr. Beef said:
			
		

> Rich,
> 
> Thanks for the link. I had totally forgotten about that set.
> 
> ...




Mr. Beef,

In the mean time I'll double check to see if I have any singles, but I kinda doubt it.  Best bet for bases is the 25mm solid (non-slotted) plastic base that GW sells.  I don't think you can get them at your local GW or FLGS, but they are available through their bits catalog.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Mar 8, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> (Dear God thats a mouthful and all I did was type it.).




Threadjack:  My favorite all-time chain of acronyms:



> IBM OS/2 EE API SDK for PowerPC Systems =
> International Business Machines Operating System 2 Extended Editionn Application Programming Interface Software Development Kit for Performance Optimazation with Enhanced Reduced Instruction Set Computing Personal Computer Systems




When I saw it, I just had to stop and gaze in awe.  Not only is inordinately long, it also manages to include nested acronyms.


----------



## Dragon Snack (Mar 8, 2007)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> I don't know TJ, Reaper has always been very savvy when it comes to the buisness end of things.  Yeah the Warlords game will be their "focus" but you can bet nearly anything that they are hoping to ring in the sales with non DDM D&D RPGrs. (Dear God thats a mouthful and all I did was type it.).



Additionally, note that they are a new line, not included in the Warlord line.

The reason a lot of people on the Reaper message boards are excited for this for Warlord is that a lot of people there play Warlord...


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 8, 2007)

At the risk of sounding incredibly stupid, what is Warlord?


----------



## D'karr (Mar 8, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> At the risk of sounding incredibly stupid, what is Warlord?




Warlord is the skirmish game produced by Reaper.  Their Warlord line of miniatures is used for the game.


----------



## MerricB (Mar 9, 2007)

How _popular_ is Warlord?

Cheers!


----------



## Mark CMG (Mar 9, 2007)

Those new Reaper minis seem a little pricey for mass produced rank and file minis.  Hopefully, WotC will answer the call with a better deal. 


Interestingly, no DDM minis were sold via the Games Plus auction this time around.  No masses of Mage Knight minis were available, either.  A handful of SW stuff came through, though.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Mar 9, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> How _popular_ is Warlord?
> 
> Cheers!




I'm pretty entreched in everything in the industry. I've vaguely heard of it before, but I know nothing about it and have never seen anyone playing it.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Mar 9, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Those new Reaper minis seem a little pricey for mass produced rank and file minis.  Hopefully, WotC will answer the call with a better deal.




Picky picky picky....

$2-2.50 is probably a lot closer to the "real" price of a common miniature when you don't have rares consuming most of the value in a pack.


----------



## crazy_cat (Mar 9, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Picky picky picky....
> 
> $2-2.50 is probably a lot closer to the "real" price of a common miniature when you don't have rares consuming most of the value in a pack.



Isn't the "real" price the one we as consumers actually pay? The fact it may be via the secondary market is irrelevant IMO.

The "real" price of many commons is about $0.5 - $1.00 in the US - its higher elsewhere in the world, but then I suspect Reapers prices wil be too (mores the pity  )


----------



## JoeGKushner (Mar 9, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Those new Reaper minis seem a little pricey for mass produced rank and file minis.  Hopefully, WotC will answer the call with a better deal.
> 
> 
> Interestingly, no DDM minis were sold via the Games Plus auction this time around.  No masses of Mage Knight minis were available, either.  A handful of SW stuff came through, though.




Ah man, I thought the miniatures were sold on Sunday!


----------



## thalmin (Mar 9, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Ah man, I thought the miniatures were sold on Sunday!



Don't worry. The regular (metal) miniatures are on Sunday. Wednesday was for the cards and tradable miniatures.(/hijack)


----------



## Pbartender (Mar 9, 2007)

thalmin said:
			
		

> Don't worry. The regular (metal) miniatures are on Sunday. Wednesday was for the cards and tradable miniatures.(/hijack)




And here I'm hoping that new Reaper plastics will be released in time for the next Chicago Gameday in June...


----------



## Shadowslayer (Mar 9, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> At the risk of sounding incredibly stupid, what is Warlord?




To actually answer your question, its a "tabletop armies" game in the same vein as Warhammer. There's differences of course...I don't think the armies are as big, and they seem to be more player friendly with regards to using proxies and such...but you get the idea.


----------



## Twowolves (Mar 9, 2007)

Unless they vastly changed their rules, I just could not justify getting into Warlord. Assuming, of course, this is the same tabletop miniature wargame they put out in the mid 90's. Every figure had only 1 hit, and the big dragon-type monsters just had a ridiculously high defense, so that 50-60 rank and file wouldn't stand a chance against one. Thus, it would seem like "whoever fields the biggest monster wins" type of set up.

But cool figs though!


----------



## Dragon Snack (Mar 9, 2007)

Warlord was released in June 2004.

It's popular in pockets.  Usually where someone takes up it's cause against GW (like any TMG basically).  There's a big tournament at Gen Con (and Reaper Con, obviously).  There's over 1300 people registered at Warlord HQ (although apparently the site has been kind of wonky lately).


----------



## Pbartender (May 3, 2007)

*AWAKE, MY UNTHREAD MINION!*

There's been a few interesting tidbits posted on the Reaper boards since this thread died, so I'd thught I'd cross-post some answers to questions that have been since answered...

The shape of the bases will be:



			
				ReaperClark said:
			
		

> Oval




On production schedule:



			
				ReaperClark said:
			
		

> If we are really lucky, we will have them here for Reaper Con... and if they are not, nothing will be "up". We just won't have them yet.
> 
> We've paid the money, they are in contact with us about the progress and we will be receiving a few production blanks (unpainted) of a few models for our approval very soon (like today I hope) as they have been shipped to us.
> 
> ...






			
				ReaperClark said:
			
		

> I should think that we will have them in by the end of May (early June at the latest) and be able to show them off (a lot) then.
> 
> People attending Reaper Con (May 17th-20th) will most likely get to see the proto-types, if not the production pieces (best case scenario).
> 
> ...




On future releases:



			
				Reaperbryan said:
			
		

> The next 2 sets of Legendary Encounters Releases will include Goblins, Zombies, A Gnoll, An Ettin, A Demoness, Kobolds, A Bathalian, Ghosts, A Succubus, and A Giant Worm. Would those be helpful?






			
				Reaperbryan said:
			
		

> And apparently, According to ReaperRon, I should have said Gnolls. There are going to be 2 in the late 2007 release (think 4th quarter), one with a bow and one with a melee weapon. I don't know whether that means axe, sword, polarm, or whatnot.


----------



## Hawkshere (May 3, 2007)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> *AWAKE, MY UNTHREAD MINION!*




   

Thanks for the news update! Much appreciated.


----------



## Sabathius42 (May 3, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I wonder what price point would change the tune of those enthusiastic?  Expecting less than metal minis current prices is certainly being over optimistic.  A $3.50 orc is probably as cheap as can be expected.  What if they are priced at $7?  $10?




Considering you can go to ToysRUs and pick up a McFarlanes Dragon for 9.99, I don't see why a troll/ogre/minotaur in DnD scale would be $7.

DS


----------



## frankthedm (May 4, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> Considering you can go to ToysRUs and pick up a McFarlanes Dragon for 9.99, I don't see why a troll/ogre/minotaur in DnD scale would be $7.
> 
> DS



Hasbro has the manfacturing set up to do that. Reaper does not. Mass market toys cost much more to set up, but if enough units will be sold, the prices still can be quite low. A nich market can't support such pricing setups.

For a smaller company, it was usually cheaper to cast figures in metal than plastic.


----------



## Sabathius42 (May 4, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Hasbro has the manfacturing set up to do that. Reaper does not. Mass market toys cost much more to set up, but if enough units will be sold, the prices still can be quite low. A nich market can't support such pricing setups.
> 
> For a smaller company, it was usually cheaper to cast figures in metal than plastic.




So why doesn't Reaper sell its cool "action figures" at ToysRUs to open a new retail path?  There is no fundamental difference between molding and painting a skeleton as there is to molding a painting a Homie(tm) that I can buy from the bubblegum machine for .50 other than the mini is a little bit bigger.  Round up your .50 to 2.00 and there you go.

http://www.streetgangs.com/homies/hoodrats.html

There you go....10 prepainted plastic modern RPG wererats for $8.

DS


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (May 4, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> http://www.streetgangs.com/homies/hoodrats.html
> 
> There you go....10 prepainted plastic modern RPG wererats for $8.
> 
> DS




Sadly, Homies are not 28mm scale. I know this because I have a bunch of them I only use with other Homies for "special" modern era games


----------



## rgard (May 4, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Hasbro has the manfacturing set up to do that. Reaper does not. Mass market toys cost much more to set up, but if enough units will be sold, the prices still can be quite low. A nich market can't support such pricing setups.
> 
> For a smaller company, it was usually cheaper to cast figures in metal than plastic.




QFT.


----------



## rgard (May 4, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> So why doesn't Reaper sell its cool "action figures" at ToysRUs to open a new retail path?  There is no fundamental difference between molding and painting a skeleton as there is to molding a painting a Homie(tm) that I can buy from the bubblegum machine for .50 other than the mini is a little bit bigger.  Round up your .50 to 2.00 and there you go.
> 
> http://www.streetgangs.com/homies/hoodrats.html
> 
> ...




You need a large volume of sales to get back the initial cost of setting up production.  It's hard to find a grocery store, Walmart, Kmart or Toys R Us that doesn't have gumball machines selling homies.  Stocking all of those machines (10 of thousands across the US) means being able to claw back the initial cost of the sculpts, steel molds (metal minis are produced with rubber molds that are significantly cheaper) and software set up to paint the figs.

Really, comparing gumball products to our niche market is not a valid or realistic exercise.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Sabathius42 (May 5, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> All you have to do is go through their site and look at the individual minis pics.  It'll take you an hour or so to start, but after that initial run through, you'll only need to look at pics of the new releases.




Alternately you can pick up the catalog and thumb through that in your spare time before bed.

DS


----------



## Sabathius42 (May 5, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Here's an orc with a spear for 34 cents:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/D-D-Miniatures-...QQcategoryZ2537QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem




Actually, thats an orc with a spear for $3.34.  Shipping isn't free and part of the downside of the secondary market on ebay is the shipping per individual mini.  Sure you can save a lot on shipping by ordering a lot of things, but what if I really only want one orc with a spear this week?

DS


----------



## Sabathius42 (May 5, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> You need a large volume of sales to get back the initial cost of setting up production.  It's hard to find a grocery store, Walmart, Kmart or Toys R Us that doesn't have gumball machines selling homies.  Stocking all of those machines (10 of thousands across the US) means being able to claw back the initial cost of the sculpts, steel molds (metal minis are produced with rubber molds that are significantly cheaper) and software set up to paint the figs.
> 
> Really, comparing gumball products to our niche market is not a valid or realistic exercise.
> 
> ...




I can compare gumball products because I have seen homies with better paintjobs and more detail than DDM minis (gnome recruit, im looking at you).

DS


----------



## Holy Bovine (May 5, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> So why doesn't Reaper sell its cool "action figures" at ToysRUs to open a new retail path?  There is no fundamental difference between molding and painting a skeleton as there is to molding a painting a Homie(tm) that I can buy from the bubblegum machine for .50 other than the mini is a little bit bigger.  Round up your .50 to 2.00 and there you go.
> 
> http://www.streetgangs.com/homies/hoodrats.html
> 
> ...




You have to be kidding, right?  Those are crap.  I wouldn't pay 8 cents let alone 8 dollars for that junk.

If that is what to expect by Reaper going into Toys R Us then I am just as happy they don't and the minis cost a $1 more.


----------



## Holy Bovine (May 5, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> I can compare gumball products because I have seen homies with better paintjobs and more detail than DDM minis (gnome recruit, im looking at you).
> 
> DS




Quite possibly you have.  I can't think of a single mini from DDM that looks as bad as the ones you linked to for the 'homies'.  The gnome recruit?  That's from the 2nd set of DDm isn't it?  Yeah i would say they have come a loooooooooooooooooooonng way since  then.


----------



## Mark CMG (May 5, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Picky picky picky....
> 
> $2-2.50 is probably a lot closer to the "real" price of a common miniature when you don't have rares consuming most of the value in a pack.





Man, you don't know what "picky" is.   "Picky" is wanting the hole that allows the package to hang on the rack to be perfectly centered.  Advocating the lowest price possible to the consumer is just smart.


----------



## Dragon Snack (May 17, 2007)

*Pics?*

These were posted by someone who went to ReaperCon along with a sculpt of Rauthuros (a 4 armed demon that has been delayed for ages)...







All are sculpts already in use in Reaper's DHL line.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 17, 2007)

Dragon Snack said:
			
		

> These were posted by someone who went to ReaperCon along with a sculpt of Rauthuros (a 4 armed demon that has been delayed for ages)...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not bad. I'll need to hold them in hand to get a definite opinion, but the pictures look nice.


----------



## Gruns (May 17, 2007)

*Same molds!*

Didn't someone mention something about not using the same molds as the metal version? I have the metal version of the Orc with the Spear in the foreground.
At work right now, but I'll post a pic tonight from home. From memory though, it looks identical.
Later!
Gruns


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 17, 2007)

They said they'd be drawing from the myriad of sculpts they have in the metal line.

They might have to use different molds because of the medium, but that doesn't mean that they can't use the sculpts.


----------



## Exquisite Dead Guy (May 17, 2007)

I've got plenty of orcs and skeletons.  The large minis look sweet - I'll definitely be getting at least one of each of them.


----------



## Kris (May 17, 2007)

When I read that skeletons and orcs were going to be included in the first release I was less than enthusiastic about those particular miniatures as I have plenty of orcs and skeletons already (both DDM's and ones I've painted myself).

However now that we have pic's of the prototypes (not the production runs according to the guys over on the reaper forum) I'll probably pick some up.

I have to admit that it will be nice to have a bunch of different pre-painted human skeletons to throw around (not literally) that are all the same size, painted the same quality as each other, and with a matching bone colour (unlike the DDM human skeletons).

And the orc mini's, 3 different sculpts that seem to wearing matching uniforms almost, are also appealing to me right now (especially as they don't appear to be of the 'warlord' style - which is what I had expected).

The large figures look quite cool, though I already have the metal version of the troll - so I doubt I'll pick that one up.

But the future releases do sound interesting... and I'm especially looking forward to seeing the Ettin


----------



## Pbartender (May 17, 2007)

Dragon Snack said:
			
		

> These were posted by someone who went to ReaperCon along with a sculpt of Rauthuros (a 4 armed demon that has been delayed for ages)...
> 
> All are sculpts already in use in Reaper's DHL line.




Thanks for the photo...  they look pretty nice at first glance.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (May 17, 2007)

I'm still looking forward to this, even though I might skip the first wave. I have plenty of skeletons and orcs.


----------



## megamania (May 17, 2007)

The figures look good though as already said.... how many Orcs and skeletons does one need?   Curious about what else they will release.


----------



## Ceresco (May 17, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> The figures look good though as already said.... how many Orcs and skeletons does one need?   Curious about what else they will release.




Oodles and oodles...

If nothing else, they would make great toys for my nephew. I played with green army men for a very long time and would have loved to have a bunch of orcs and skeletons to fight them in an Army of Darkness kind imaginary battles.

ed kopp-


----------



## Pbartender (May 17, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> The figures look good though as already said.... how many Orcs and skeletons does one need?   Curious about what else they will release.




To reiterate...

On future releases:



			
				Reaperbryan said:
			
		

> The next 2 sets of Legendary Encounters Releases will include Goblins, Zombies, A Gnoll, An Ettin, A Demoness, Kobolds, A Bathalian, Ghosts, A Succubus, and A Giant Worm. Would those be helpful?


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 17, 2007)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> To reiterate...




Since we're reiterating:

I really hope that demoness will be the marilith type. I want a PPMM (pre-painted plastic marilith miniature) that looks like Cha 24 is supposed to look (for the record: That's 5 above Nymph and only 2 below Succubus).

Since they know, without a doubt, that I'm not the only one who doesn't like the DDM marilith sculpt, I can totally see them releasing that early on.


----------



## Drkfathr1 (May 17, 2007)

Those look about a bazillion times better than the DDM's IMHO. 

And it will be nice to get an Ogre, Troll, and Minotaur (that look good) at decent prices. Can't wait for the Bathalians and the Ettin!


----------



## WhatGravitas (May 17, 2007)

They look nice. In fact, they look good. But I want to see 'em in real, before I'm saying anything about buying. But colour me positively surprised by the pictures.


----------



## MerricB (May 18, 2007)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> They look nice. In fact, they look good. But I want to see 'em in real, before I'm saying anything about buying. But colour me positively surprised by the pictures.




Ditto. They look really nice.

Competition is *good*.

Cheers!


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (May 18, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> They said they'd be drawing from the myriad of sculpts they have in the metal line.
> 
> They might have to use different molds because of the medium, but that doesn't mean that they can't use the sculpts.




100% Old Sculpts so Far.

In fact, I have Every Single One (except the Minotaur) in that Picture.

And those are OLD Sculpts.  Most of those I picked up over 3 years ago.  (in fact, most of those are out of print you can only get them via the Reaper On-line store).

Go through their On-line store the DH Legends Here and see for yourself.

I was interested in these.

But if I already have them I'll pass.  (Maybe the later releases will be unique)


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 18, 2007)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> (Maybe the later releases will be unique)




I doubt it. Why use a sculpt only for one line when you can use it for both?


----------



## Felon (May 18, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> Actually, thats an orc with a spear for $3.34.  Shipping isn't free and part of the downside of the secondary market on ebay is the shipping per individual mini.



No, it is actually what I said it was: an orc with a spear for 34 cents. You're tacking on associated expenses as if their won't be any when purchasing minis some other way. If you have the reapers shipped to you, you'll also pay shipping. If you buy them at the store, you might pay some sales tax. If you drive there, you'll burn up some gas. We can play this game all sorts of ways.



> Sure you can save a lot on shipping by ordering a lot of things, but what if I really only want one orc with a spear this week?



They do what you gotta do for that nail-biting lone-orc encounter, but for most folks the point of rank-and-file troops is to have a whole bunch


----------



## D.Shaffer (May 18, 2007)

Dragon Snack said:
			
		

> These were posted by someone who went to ReaperCon along with a sculpt of Rauthuros (a 4 armed demon that has been delayed for ages)...



Those DO look pretty good.  However, are those going to be the actual PRODUCTION models, or are those the studio painted versions for test shots? It wouldnt be the first time people got all excited about a line of prepainteds only to find out the ones they were looking at where the studio painted test shots.


----------



## Drkfathr1 (May 18, 2007)

I don't even care about the paint jobs, I can always touch up or repaint a bad one. I do that with the DDM's already. But having a really good base sculpt, and a nice price tag are the selling points for me. Especially for the "Large" figures, and in the future, those that are very hard or expensive to get (Illithid/Bathalian).


----------



## Shazman (May 18, 2007)

I hope these pan out.  After the Dragon and Dungeon debacle WotC pulled, I'd buy these instead of DDM even if they were poorer quality and more expensive.  Anything I can do to get my game on without supporting WotC is fine by me.


----------



## Pbartender (May 18, 2007)

Drkfathr1 said:
			
		

> I don't even care about the paint jobs, I can always touch up or repaint a bad one.




Yep...  A quick dip in poly-based wood stain goes a long way to improving mediocre paint jobs.


----------



## Kris (May 18, 2007)

A better pic from the reaper forums

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2700163710051431596hdulZa

Just click on the full size option on the right.


----------



## pawsplay (May 18, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Since we're reiterating:
> 
> I really hope that demoness will be the marilith type. I want a PPMM (pre-painted plastic marilith miniature) that looks like Cha 24 is supposed to look (for the record: That's 5 above Nymph and only 2 below Succubus).
> 
> Since they know, without a doubt, that I'm not the only one who doesn't like the DDM marilith sculpt, I can totally see them releasing that early on.




Yeah, I'm not too happy with six-armed Ugly Betty wearing the hood off a Chevy as armor. 

Can I just refer to that mini as Ugly Betty in the future, for simplicity's sake?


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 18, 2007)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Can I just refer to that mini as Ugly Betty in the future, for simplicity's sake?




Of course.

Not to be confused with Evil Betty!


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 18, 2007)

Kris said:
			
		

> A better pic from the reaper forums
> 
> http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2700163710051431596hdulZa
> 
> Just click on the full size option on the right.




Oooh! I like those.


----------



## Quickbeam (May 18, 2007)

This is a good thing IMHO.


----------



## dragonlordofpoondari (May 19, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Of course.
> 
> Not to be confused with Evil Betty!




Yes, but isn't Betty a _GIRL'S NAME_?

<swinging the chain, swinging the chain>


----------



## DaveMage (May 19, 2007)

Kris said:
			
		

> A better pic from the reaper forums
> 
> http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2700163710051431596hdulZa
> 
> Just click on the full size option on the right.




Thanks for that link.

I think I like this minotaur and ogre much more than the WotC ones - providing these can actually stand on those flimsy-looking bases.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 19, 2007)

dragonlordofpoondari said:
			
		

> Yes, but isn't Betty a _GIRL'S NAME_?




 


(Come on, people, be nice, we don't want to lose any more toes here!)


----------



## harleykitty (Jun 9, 2007)

*New Reaper PPM Giveaway Contest*

This is pretty cool...www.reapermini.com

HK


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Jun 9, 2007)

I'm still looking forward to this. I'll be able to get the reaper miniatures at any of my three LGS -- none of them carry singles of DDMs. 

I don't buy random and I don't pay ridiculous shipping charges (not that every site that sells singles overcharges for S&H), so this works out for me.


----------



## scourger (Jun 9, 2007)

harleykitty said:
			
		

> This is pretty cool...www.reapermini.com
> 
> HK




Thanks!  The contest link should really have its own thread.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Jun 9, 2007)

These look really cool. The ogre and the minotaur are very well done. Too bad the bases are lame, but you can't have everything...


----------



## DaveMage (Jun 9, 2007)

harleykitty said:
			
		

> This is pretty cool...www.reapermini.com
> 
> HK




Thanks for the link!


----------



## Mark CMG (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks for the heads up on the contest!


----------

