# Is the "Keep it Clean" rule still in effect?



## w_earle_wheeler (Mar 29, 2007)

I've made two reports over the past month regarding off-color (ie, non ENG safe) language in posts. The "offending" words were "bitching" and "pissing."

Nothing was done about either post as far as I could tell. However, one was written by a fairly prolific poster, and another was written by a moderator.

Are popular posters and moderators immune to the enforcement of this rule, or is enforcement of this rule currently out-of-favor with the moderators?

Personally, I don't care if the rule stays or goes. It is nice that certain rules are in place on EN World to keep discussions more civil and focused, but I'm certainly no stranger to foul language.


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## Mouseferatu (Mar 29, 2007)

My (unofficial) guess is that the rule is still in effect, but neither "bitching" nor "pissing" qualify as sufficiently filthy language to qualify.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Mar 29, 2007)

Did you report the posts?  I know the rules are still in effect, but if they weren't reported, the odds are low anything will happen.  

My own worthless opinion is that the first word is right on the edge and probably should be avoided.  The second is definitely more of a grey area, its crude, but not profane.  I believe it also has different meanings depending upon where you are from.  My recollection is that Morrus and others might wonder why people would be offended by a word meaning drinking heavily.


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## Pielorinho (Mar 29, 2007)

I believe our ruling is that neither word is naughty enough to cause problems, but I'll make sure the other mods get a chance to look in here and decide as well.  

More generally, we do not make exceptions to the rules for any posters, although we sometimes do handle moderation behind the scenes.  If you don't see moderation happen, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

If a post with a questionable word in it is brought to our attention, if we decide the word shouldn't appear on the site, we'll add it to the content filter.

Daniel


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## Umbran (Mar 29, 2007)

I don't know the particular posts, so I can't speak to their context.  However, failure to act on a particular use of a particular word _in no way_ implies the rule is out of favor, in general.

By now, I think all the common words that have no legitimate use are probably in the language filters.  Anything left over would depend upon context.  I don't think anyone has ever been disciplined for saying someone was "bitching about something"...


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## Pielorinho (Mar 29, 2007)

Okay, a little research later.  There are a couple of other possibilities out there:

1) Sometimes we don't moderate in a thread if a problem seems to have sorted itself out by the time we get there, and the problem seems minor.
2) Sometimes people jokingly report moderator posts as a way of teasing us.  If someone clearly is not joking, we'll take it seriously, but earle, one of your reports came along with some clear jokes, and I think we all took it as a joke.
3) Sometimes the reason for having a thread reported is unclear.  If cursing happens as part of an insult, we might pay attention to the insult more than to the language.

As I said, I'm pretty sure we allow both words (although that doesn't mean we allow them in all contexts, of course--think of the contexts in which you'd get in trouble for using the word "whining," for example).  But I'll run it by the others.

Daniel


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## w_earle_wheeler (Mar 29, 2007)

Hey guys, thanks for the answers.


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## Piratecat (Mar 29, 2007)

Hey, guys! I just wanted to confirm the above. For general conversation that doesn't involve insults, both of those words are generally not a problem. 

It's also worth noting that while we never want to offend our official grandma, she traditionally doesn't really clue into innuendo. Some otherwise suspicious jokes might sneak past as a result.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2007)

i'd say both of those words would have to depend on the context in which they are used.  when describing something general, they're not considered particularly offensive these days, but when aimed at another poster i could see how they could quickly become derogatory.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Mar 29, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> never want to offend our official grandma, she traditionally doesn't really clue into innuendo. Some otherwise suspicious jokes might sneak past as a result.




Heck, an *entire moderator* slipped by without her noticing the innuendo!  

I will confess that having used those particular terms without regard for the 'grandma' rule -- they just fall below the threshold of what most of my peers consider profanity.  But if they're problematic, say the word and I won't bit....complain about it.


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## hong (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm keeping track of all those people using hong as a verb. Yes.


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## DaveyJones (Mar 29, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> I'm keeping track of all those people using hong as a verb. Yes.



hong stick.

[-]does[/-]hong that [-]count[/-]hong?


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## Umbran (Mar 29, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> I'm keeping track of all those people using hong as a verb. Yes.




We could do a comedic "slam dunk" competition, and see who gets the best hong time...


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## w_earle_wheeler (Mar 29, 2007)

So, just to clarify, it's OK if I write a thread titled "My Half-Orc Paladin Pisses on Bitches" and it will be OK, right?


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## Pielorinho (Mar 29, 2007)

w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> So, just to clarify, it's OK if I write a thread titled "My Half-Orc Paladin Pisses on Bitches" and it will be OK, right?



No, that's not okay. Words have different meanings in different contexts.  Some words are by themselves problems; other words are only problems when used in certain contexts.

Daniel


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## Joshua Randall (Mar 29, 2007)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> If you don't see moderation happen, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.



I think we debated this once in my theodicy class.


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2007)

w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> So, just to clarify, it's OK if I write a thread titled "My Half-Orc Paladin Pisses on Bitches" and it will be OK, right?




No, just as "w_earle_wheeler is an idiot" is not, despite every word in that sentence being acceptable in other contexts.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Mar 29, 2007)

OK, so, "piss" in reference to bodily functions is not OK (we'll put that in the same category as the S-word [not sword]). However, "piss-and-vinegar", "pissed-off", "pissing contest" and other colloquialisms are.

"Bitch" is also not acceptable when it refers to a human woman. Will it be acceptable in reference to a canine in heat (not to purposefully reference an old _The Simpson_'s episode. As above, "bitching" is OK, as is "bitch" when used in the "to bitch" form. "Bitches ain't nothing" would not be acceptable.

So the sentence "I bitched to Eric's grandma about the upcoming 4th edition. She told me to shut my mouth because I shouldn't expect WotC to piss candy 24/7" would be nixed not because of "bitched" but because of "piss."






Being a moderator must be hard.


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## Pielorinho (Mar 29, 2007)

w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> OK, so, "piss" in reference to bodily functions is not OK (we'll put that in the same category as the S-word [not sword]).



I'm sorry, *earle*, but that's not it.  We're not going to break each word down according to which definitions are acceptable to use.  Instead, I'm going to need to refer you back to the rules of membership.  Please reread those rules.  They're intentionally vague precisely so that we don't have to get into this sort of minutia.  This is a situation where we need our board members to display good judgment, not to try to codify every possible situation.

Daniel


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## w_earle_wheeler (Mar 29, 2007)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, *earle*, but that's not it.  We're not going to break each word down according to which definitions are acceptable to use.  Instead, I'm going to need to refer you back to the rules of membership.  Please reread those rules.  They're intentionally vague precisely so that we don't have to get into this sort of minutia.  This is a situation where we need our board members to display good judgment, not to try to codify every possible situation.
> 
> Daniel




Ok Daniel, I'm not trying to be purposefully obtuse here. 

Like I said, it's not an important issue at all. Just a bit of minutia that interested me, and I was curious as to how the golden rule was enforced.


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## Pielorinho (Mar 29, 2007)

w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> Just a bit of minutia that interested me, and I was curious as to how the golden rule was enforced.



No worries.  The Grandma rule is intentionally flexible, and we generally trust everyone to keep themselves in line.  You should be fine as long as you watch your pees and queues.

Daniel


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## kirinke (Apr 2, 2007)

Well, the general grandma rule is this: When in doubt, don't. If the mods feel that you've broken a grandma rule, they'll letcha know sure enough.

I take my foul language to the Circvs. They don't care there.  

Durned.... Why do I keep posting in Meta?


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## Rel (Apr 2, 2007)

For the record, I'm pissing and bitching right now.


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## kirinke (Apr 2, 2007)

Rel said:
			
		

> For the record, I'm pissing and bitching right now.




*Pats Rel's head.

And that's your perogative.


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## Keith Robinson (Apr 2, 2007)

Morrus said:
			
		

> No, just as "w_earle_wheeler is an idiot" is not, despite every word in that sentence being acceptable in other contexts.




But what if I have a character called Bitches who is on fire and a half-orc with a full bladder just happens along...?


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2007)

he'll use the, ahem, golden rule.  

does that count as a line, a ray, or a ranged touch attack?


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## Lanefan (Apr 3, 2007)

Red Moon Games said:
			
		

> But what if I have a character called Bitches ...



Scary thing is, in my old Telenet game there really *was* a character named Bitch...

Lanefan


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## hong (Apr 3, 2007)

Red Moon Games said:
			
		

> But what if I have a character called Bitches who is on fire and a half-orc with a full bladder just happens along...?



 I've always been partial to a nice serving of Bitches and cream.


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## Joshua Randall (Apr 3, 2007)

Dammit, hong, now I'm hungry.


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## werk (Apr 3, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> he'll use the, ahem, golden rule.
> 
> does that count as a line, a ray, or a ranged touch attack?




Ranged touch, like a ray.


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## the Jester (Apr 4, 2007)

Lanefan said:
			
		

> Scary thing is, in my old Telenet game there really *was* a character named Bitch...
> 
> Lanefan





Early in the 3e days, there was a dwarf barbarian imc called "Sh**head".

When I get to the story hour thread covering that party, I just don't know _what_ I'll do.  :\


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## BOZ (Apr 4, 2007)

just say his name sounded like sheh-thedd, but he spells it differently.


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## kirinke (Apr 4, 2007)

*Hands Boz and the others some toliet paper. Obviously they need it.


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