# Immediate Actions *can't* be used when flat-footed?



## Nail (Jun 11, 2007)

Here's the situation:

"Blade" (a Mnk 2/ Warblade 6) steps on a Symbol of Insanity
(Will save DC 22) that he did NOT know was there.  He is
surprised.  He's not in combat.  Initiative is not, and will
not, be rolled.  Blade must roll a Will save.

Can he use an immediate action to initiate Moment of Perfect Mind? 

I know our hero certainly hopes so!      The manuever takes an immediate action to activate, and it allows him to substitute a Concentration skill check for a Will saving throw.  Since his Concentration check is +25 - and you can't "auto-fail" a skill check on a natural 1 - if he can use the manuever, his success is assured.

The problem is that immediate actions can't be used while flat-footed.  Isn't Blade flat-footed?  In fact, isn't *everyone* flat-footed until initiative is rolled?  Doesn't that mean you are always flat-footed when out of combat?


----------



## Wish (Jun 11, 2007)

If, instead, Blade fell in a pit trap, would you let him cast _feather fall_?  Also an immediate action.  And if it can't be used without rolling initiative, it's almost entirely useless.  (Seriously, a spell to prevent falling damage that you can only use in combat, after your initiative?  What good would that be?)


----------



## Nail (Jun 11, 2007)

*Exactly*

And yet......


----------



## Goolpsy (Jun 11, 2007)

Initiative and Being flat-footed is only used in combat.. that "Effect" from a trap (whatever) is not a combat, even though it might be a challenge...

Hence you're not falt-footed in the normal sence, and should have no problem activating the ability... 

See it like this:
DM: "Theres a puzzle on the wall, What do you do?"
Players: "Nothing yet, haven't rolled initiative, we're all flat-footed"

Abit Lame ey?


----------



## ThirdWizard (Jun 11, 2007)

If you want, you could roll initiative for the trap (with a 0 or - modifier?). If he beats the init, he can then use the ability. That would have the added effect of putting reaction time in there. I'm not sure how exactly that fits into a pit trap with _feather fall_, though. Sometimes you just... fall sooner? Yeah. <_<;;

But, yeah, I've always said that if it isn't combat, go ahead and use whatever.


----------



## Nifft (Jun 11, 2007)

*Trap*: Defended against via Search. Not a combat; use whatever you want.

*Ambush*: Defended against via Spot. Roll Initiative; act in order.

They seem fairly distinct in terms of resolution mechanism. If you had both (e.g. kobolds manually triggering a trap when they see you), I'd rule it as a combat, since the kobolds could try to time the activation such that you were distracted, or whatever.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Nail (Jun 11, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> They seem fairly distinct in terms of resolution mechanism. If you had both (e.g. kobolds manually triggering a trap when they see you), I'd rule it as a combat, since the kobolds could try to time the activation such that you were distracted, or whatever.



So....
You can use Immediate Actions outside of combat.

You can use Immediate Actions inside combat.

You can't use Immediate Actions at the beginning of combat, until your turn.

?????

How about this:
You retain your Dex bonus to AC outside of combat.

You retain your Dex bonus to AC inside of combat.

You lose your Dex bonus at the beginning of combat, until your turn.


That doesn't make sense, nor is it supported in the rules, methinks.  You are effectively flat-footed outside of combat.


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 11, 2007)

By default you're flatfooted against traps, so you can't use immediate actions.

_Feather fall_ isn't an immediate action, btw.  It's a free action that you can use anytime.


----------



## IanB (Jun 11, 2007)

My reading is that flat-footedness only applies during actual combat, and not vs. traps.

Check it out:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.






			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.




So, if your argument is that everyone is always flat-footed outside of combat, _rogues can never apply their trap sense bonus to AC._ It is a dodge bonus, and thus lost when they lose their Dex bonus, and thus lost when flat-footed.


----------



## Nifft (Jun 11, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> How about this:
> You retain your Dex bonus to AC outside of combat.
> You retain your Dex bonus to AC inside of combat.
> You lose your Dex bonus at the beginning of combat, until your turn.
> ...




Looks accurate to me. 

Traps don't attack your flat-footed AC -- they attack your AC. You're not flat-footed against a trap. At least, not so far as I can tell, after re-reading the traps section of the SRD.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Doug McCrae (Jun 11, 2007)

IanB said:
			
		

> So, if your argument is that everyone is always flat-footed outside of combat, _rogues can never apply their trap sense bonus to AC._ It is a dodge bonus, and thus lost when they lose their Dex bonus, and thus lost when flat-footed.



Rogues have Uncanny Dodge which means they get their dex bonus even when flat-footed.


----------



## IanB (Jun 11, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Rogues have Uncanny Dodge which means they get their dex bonus even when flat-footed.




Trap sense is gained at level 3; uncanny dodge is gained at level 4. I suppose my quote should be revised to "level 3 rogues" instead.


----------



## Artoomis (Jun 11, 2007)

SRD said:
			
		

> Immediate Actions
> Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
> 
> Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.




So outside of combat (as in this example), yes, you can do it.  The only time you cannot is when flat-footed .  

*Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time. *


----------



## Patlin (Jun 11, 2007)

Certain immediate actions make no sense with this rule, such as the Nerveskitter spell.  Except for house ruling those to make sense, we don't allow immediate actions while flat footed.


----------



## Caliban (Jun 11, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> That doesn't make sense, nor is it supported in the rules, methinks.  You are effectively flat-footed outside of combat.




I really don't think so.


----------



## IanB (Jun 11, 2007)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> So outside of combat (as in this example), yes, you can do it.  The only time you cannot is when flat-footed .
> 
> *Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time. *




This is probably the best example. Take the original post, and replace it with a pit trap and a wizard. Can the wizard cast feather fall in response to the trap? The circumstances are pretty much identical.


----------



## Nifft (Jun 11, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Doesn't that mean you are always flat-footed when out of combat?




I don't see anything to indicate this.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Deset Gled (Jun 11, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> I don't see anything to indicate this.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Enter the ambiguous text: 



> Flat-Footed: *A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed*, _not yet reacting normally to the situation_. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.




To me, the bold text and italicized text indicate two different things.  The bold text tells me that a character outside of combat is flat-footed.  If there is no combat, the character obviously has not acted during a combat, and is thus flat-footed.

The italicized text, OTOH, tells me that a flat-footed character is not reacting "normally".  To me, the way a character reacts out of combat is how they would react "normally", since most people will spend a majority of the lives outside of combat.

I can see both sides of this arguement being valid, so far.


----------



## Caliban (Jun 11, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> Enter the ambiguous text:
> The bold text tells me that a character outside of combat is flat-footed.




Funny, it tells me exactly the opposite.   It only references acting during combat.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jun 11, 2007)

Theres also nothing in the description of flatfootedness that says you can't take actions. I mean, you can make reflex saves right? And with combat reflexes, you can even make AOOs.

I don't see anything to support the idea you CAN't take immediate actions. Flatfooted means its not your term, but immediate actions can be taken when its not your turn. Hence, you just do it.


----------



## Deset Gled (Jun 11, 2007)

Caliban said:
			
		

> Funny, it tells me exactly the opposite.   It only references acting during combat.




Close. It references _not_ acting during combat.  A character who just rolled initiative and is waiting for others to act has not yet acted in combat.  He is flat-footed.  Just prior to that, during the surprise round and before the character rolled initiative, he has also not yet acted in combat, and is flat-footed.  Two hours earlier, when the character was eating breakfast, he had not yet acted in combat.  By the bolded text, that makes him flat-footed.



> I don't see anything to support the idea you CAN't take immediate actions. Flatfooted means its not your term, but immediate actions can be taken when its not your turn. Hence, you just do it.




I believe the text of Immediate Actions specifically says you can't take them while flat-footed.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 11, 2007)

> A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed...




At the moment, this is being read in two ways.

One way is synonymous with "During a combat, a character who has not yet acted is flat-footed".  The other way is not; it might be expressed as "A character who has not yet [acted during a combat] is flat-footed".

Either can be valid, grammatically.  Of course, if we take the second, then since there's nothing to indicate when one becomes flat-footed again, it would seem that after I run into my first kobold, I am no longer a character who has not yet [acted during a combat], and am therefore no longer flat-footed for the rest of my career as an adventurer (save when balancing, of course).

-Hyp.


----------



## Caliban (Jun 11, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> Close. It references _not_ acting during combat.  A character who just rolled initiative and is waiting for others to act has not yet acted in combat.  He is flat-footed.  Just prior to that, during the surprise round and before the character rolled initiative, he has also not yet acted in combat, and is flat-footed.  Two hours earlier, when the character was eating breakfast, he had not yet acted in combat.  By the bolded text, that makes him flat-footed.




I understood what you said the first time.  I just read it a bit differently.   

Restating your entire arguement again isn't going to change that.


----------



## Christian (Jun 12, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> At the moment, this is being read in two ways.
> 
> One way is synonymous with "During a combat, a character who has not yet acted is flat-footed".  The other way is not; it might be expressed as "A character who has not yet [acted during a combat] is flat-footed".
> 
> Either can be valid, grammatically.  Of course, if we take the second, then since there's nothing to indicate when one becomes flat-footed again, it would seem that after I run into my first kobold, I am no longer a character who has not yet [acted during a combat], and am therefore no longer flat-footed for the rest of my career as an adventurer (save when balancing, of course).




I think I love you, Hypersmurf.


----------



## Jarrod (Jun 12, 2007)

This question came up in our game last week - we had encountered an illusion outside of combat, and the warblade was wondering if he could use MoPM to help in the will save to see through it. 

Short answer: the designers didn't think about it. It's right up there with the Swordsage teleporting every other round, the Crusader healing via a punching bag... right. 

Long answer: to me, the reason you are flat-footed at the start of combat is that you haven't had time to react yet - it's the split second between "Oh crap" and throwing down. So an instantaneous effect that the character is not aware of will occur before they can use immediate actions - to draw a _very_ rough parallel, it's the equivalent of the surprise round. If a wizard fell into a magic pit that caused them to hit bottom instantly, then they would not get to Feather Fall. However, most pits are not instantaneous - and there's the difference. 

To summarize: Instantaneous out-of-combat effect? No immediate action. Non-instantaneous out-of-combat effect? Immediate action.


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 12, 2007)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> *Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time. *



That's not actually true.  PHB p229 spells it out.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 12, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> That's not actually true.  PHB p229 spells it out.




Well, it depends.  Once you've introduced immediate actions into your game, passages like this one in Spell Compendium have some authority:

_*Immediate Action:* Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time -- even if it's not your turn. *Casting feather fall is an immediate action (instead of a free action, as stated in the spell description in the Player's Handbook), since the spell can be cast at any time.*

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn. You also cannot use an immediate action if you are currently flat-footed._

That's what Artoomis was quoting above.

If you aren't using immediate actions, Feather Fall isn't an immediate action, and can be cast while flat-footed.  But if you _are_ using immediate actions, Feather Fall is one, and can't.

-Hyp.


----------



## Nifft (Jun 12, 2007)

^ Right, but even the less-charitable interpretation has no set expiration. Once you've been in combat *ever*, you are not flat-footed (until your next combat starts).

Being Helpless in the previous round doesn't render you flat-footed in the current round, so sleep and similar won't cause you to lose your "not-flat-footed" state. Only starting combat will do that, and then only until you've acted.

The end of combat has no "resume-flat-footed" triggering condition. 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## UnsocialEntity (Jun 12, 2007)

Listen to the Smurf, for he is wise.


----------



## Nail (Jun 12, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> The end of combat has no "resume-flat-footed" triggering condition.




Right.  It's not at all clear when "flat-footedness" starts, except when dealing with combat......and really, there wouldn't be any issues at all, if we didn't have immediate actions tell us they can't be used when flat-footed.

What would the balance issues be if I deleted that limitation from the game?  That is: _"Immediate Actions *can* be used when flat-footed?"_  As I see it, such a deletion would mean that anyone with Immediate actions (a spell, a martial adept manuever, etc) would be immune to being flat-footed, as they would use their immediate actions to act, and thus remove the flat-footed condition.  (Interestingly, the same trick could apply to free actions when flat-footed!)

So the (house) rule would have to be: *"You can use immediate (or free!) actions when flat-footed, but doing so does not remove the flat-footed condition."*

.....That seems rather cumbersome.  Thoughts?


----------



## Nail (Jun 12, 2007)

*Feather Fall*: The new _remove flat-footed _ spell!


----------



## Jarrod (Jun 12, 2007)

That makes immediate actions capital-M Mighty. 

Take an immediate action Teleport - you will never get hit in melee. Period. You're caught off-guard by the rogue, you teleport away. Poof. 

It also makes no sense. Flat-footed is the mechanism the game mechanics use to model you not being able to react to an action (either unaware, or moving too slowly). If you allow immediate actions to work while flat-footed, the characters are effectively prescient.


----------



## Someone (Jun 12, 2007)

From now on my traps will also do the usual effects and also summon a fiendish chicken to attack the party. That way I can make sure they're flat-footed, since they are in combat.


----------



## shmoo2 (Jun 12, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> If you aren't using immediate actions, Feather Fall isn't an immediate action, and can be cast while flat-footed.  But if you _are_ using immediate actions, Feather Fall is one, and can't.




So if a wizard falls into a covered pit trap out of combat he can cast Feather Fall as an immediate action.

If the wizard is bull rushed into the pit before his initiative in round 1 of combat, he is flat-footed and can't cast Feather Fall.

??


----------



## Caliban (Jun 12, 2007)

shmoo2 said:
			
		

> So if a wizard falls into a covered pit trap out of combat he can cast Feather Fall as an immediate action.
> 
> If the wizard is bull rushed into the pit before his initiative in round 1 of combat, he is flat-footed and can't cast Feather Fall.
> 
> ??




Yup.   I house-ruled that the intent of the spell outweights the wording of the new swift/immediate action rules.


----------



## Christian (Jun 12, 2007)

shmoo2 said:
			
		

> If the wizard is bull rushed into the pit before his initiative in round 1 of combat, he is flat-footed and can't cast Feather Fall.
> 
> ??




Sure he can--just not until his action. Fortunately, he doesn't start falling until his action comes up (see the rules for multi-round long jumps), so there's no problem ...


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 13, 2007)

Christian said:
			
		

> Sure he can--just not until his action. Fortunately, he doesn't start falling until his action comes up (see the rules for multi-round long jumps), so there's no problem ...




He didn't jump, though.

-Hyp.


----------



## hong (Jun 13, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Right.  It's not at all clear when "flat-footedness" starts, except when dealing with combat......and really, there wouldn't be any issues at all, if we didn't have immediate actions tell us they can't be used when flat-footed.
> 
> What would the balance issues be if I deleted that limitation from the game?  That is: _"Immediate Actions *can* be used when flat-footed?"_  As I see it, such a deletion would mean that anyone with Immediate actions (a spell, a martial adept manuever, etc) would be immune to being flat-footed, as they would use their immediate actions to act, and thus remove the flat-footed condition.  (Interestingly, the same trick could apply to free actions when flat-footed!)
> 
> ...



 I think that if you are having this much trouble coping with moment of perfect mind, you should just ban it. Saves an awful lot of faffing around.


----------



## irdeggman (Jun 13, 2007)

In regards to falling (from a trap).

Looking at the rules for "surprise" and "traps".

In a surpise round someone (or something - like the trap) can take a move or standard action).

The trap going off is either a standard or move action (depends on what you end up with) - most are attack rolls or saving throws so they would be a standard action.

That is "setting it off".

For a pit trap the character has to fall. Falling is actually a move action - or actually involves movement.  When that movement occurs is a matter of interpretation. But it is entirely reasonable to handle it on the falling character's turn in the initiative.

So surprise round - trap goes off, everyone roll initiative.

On the falling character's turn he "falls". Sage put out that base on accelaration of gravity it would be reasonable to use 500 ft in first round and 1200 ft in each subsequent round.

Well since the character is falling on his turn he is no longer flat-footed and can use immediate actions.

That is how I see it and it seems to follow the rules fairly well.

As far as the OP - IMO the character is "screwed".  He is flat-footed since the trap executes its "attack" and the result is that the PC is now "flat-footed".

And technically yes a character is considered "flat-footed" when outside of combat. But that shouldn't really matter all that much if one looks at traps as if they were opposing "characters" and breaks down their "actions" accordingly.


----------



## funmasta (Jun 13, 2007)

i suggest house ruling this:
falling down takes at least a very short period fo time
a spell that is just finished is NOW - and not a millisecond later - so there is no time to set an immediate action between now and the spell
in case of feather fall there is a little bit of time to cast featherfall before he touches the floor


----------



## Bagpuss (Jun 13, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> He didn't jump, though.
> 
> -Hyp.





You've not seen enough road runner cartoons, characters don't fall until they realise gravity works. If you are flat-footed, you aren't ready to fall, so you don't, by the time you realise you should fall, you can also cast feather fall as an immediate action so everyone is happy.


----------



## Ahrimon (Jun 13, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> Enter the ambiguous text:
> 
> Flat-Footed: *A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed*, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.




To be picky, I could also say that since my Nth lvl character acted in *a* combat way back during 1st level, then I'm never considered flat footed again.  Only 1st level characters need ever worry about being flat footed.

Not in the spirit of the rules, but a valid interpretation of the quoted text.


----------



## borc killer (Jun 13, 2007)

In our game we handle it exactly as Irdeggman described, and have for years now.  We work very hard to handle all character movement on their turn, some things you can’t obviously but for the vast majority of the time it works out well to just wait till their turn to have them fall.


----------



## jasin (Jun 13, 2007)

Jarrod said:
			
		

> Take an immediate action Teleport -



You make that sound simpler than I expect it would be.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jun 13, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> You make that sound simpler than I expect it would be.



It's a 1st level alternate class feature in phbII

Mike


----------



## Nifft (Jun 13, 2007)

mikebr99 said:
			
		

> It's a 1st level alternate class feature in phbII




Only for Conjurers (...who need to be banned).

Erp, -- N


----------



## Nifft (Jun 13, 2007)

Ahrimon said:
			
		

> To be picky, I could also say that since my Nth lvl character acted in *a* combat way back during 1st level, then I'm never considered flat footed again.  Only 1st level characters need ever worry about being flat footed.
> 
> Not in the spirit of the rules, but a valid interpretation of the quoted text.




IMHO: that's exactly as "in-the-spirit" as the interpretation that says you are flatfooted *unless* you are in combat.

 -- N


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 13, 2007)

I'd treat an undetected trap going off exactly like a sniper who was not Spotted by any members of the party: the trap gets to act in the surprise round and they do not.  The rest determines itself in a fairly straightforward manner.


----------



## Nail (Jun 13, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> I'd treat an undetected trap going off exactly like a sniper who was not Spotted by any members of the party: the trap gets to act in the surprise round and they do not.  The rest determines itself in a fairly straightforward manner.



...or not, as the case may be.    

#1) If I ruled as you've outlined (surprises are handled as surprise rounds), then Blade would not be able to use his Immediate Action manuever outside of combat.  That is: "Practically every time he's making a Will save out of combat, he's surprised. Since during the suprirse round he'd be flat-footed, he could not use this manuever to boost his Will save out of combat.  That would suck."

#2) Conversely, if we do NOT give out-of-combat traps a surprise round, then the system develops a strange "hiccup".  Blade is only prohibited from using the manuever at the beginning of combat before he's been able to act normally.  As pointed out above, this leads to some really strange results (E.G. featherfall and falling into a pit).

#3) And if we decide that - screw it! - immediate actions CAN be used when flat-footed, then we open up an even larger can of worms (E.G. performing an immediate action while flat-footed would remove the flat-footed condition).

Admit it.  The system is just broken here, and there's NO quick patch.   :\


----------



## Nellisir (Jun 13, 2007)

I think the original character is out-of-luck.  Sorry, but sometimes you gotta just take one for the team.

I think the wizard is OK, though it wouldn't bother me too much if he was out-of-luck too.


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 13, 2007)

Nail, I think that's the point with #1.  Warblades get better when they know there's a fight - just look at Battle Clarity.


----------



## Nail (Jun 13, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Nail, I think that's the point with #1.  Warblades get better when they know there's a fight - just look at Battle Clarity.



True.......hmmmmmm.....


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 13, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Admit it.  The system is just broken here, and there's NO quick patch.   :\




Not here; there's no need for patch. 

Ruling option #1 is correct. The difference between Blade's Concentration mod and his Will save mod is likely pretty a big bonus. Big bonuses can be balanced by restricting their availability: when you're not flat footed and have the manuever ready. Limitations to an ability dont make them suck. 

I agree with Blargney


----------



## Jarrod (Jun 13, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> #1) If I ruled as you've outlined (surprises are handled as surprise rounds), then Blade would not be able to use his Immediate Action manuever outside of combat.  That is: "Practically every time he's making a Will save out of combat, he's surprised. Since during the suprirse round he'd be flat-footed, he could not use this manuever to boost his Will save out of combat.  That would suck."




Yup. 

On the other hand, the other answer is "every time he is asked to make a Will save outside of combat, he succeeds". Especially with the presence of skill-boosting items. 

You could also let characters make some sort of roll (equivalent to spot/listen) to not be surprised, which means they act in the surprise round - give both the trap and the character an initiative roll (trap gets, say, +0) and see if they reacted fast enough.


----------



## Brian Gibbons (Jun 13, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Conversely, if we do NOT give out-of-combat traps a surprise round, then the system develops a strange "hiccup".  Blade is only prohibited from using the manuever at the beginning of combat before he's been able to act normally.



The "hiccup" method is the easiest one to live with.  It just means that the very beginning of a combat is a strange and confusing time, and I can accept that.

The alternative is to expand combat-timing systems into every corner of the game, and that way lies madness.  Once you do that, you're going to end up with players readying and delaying (and if 3e, refocusing) at all times, to try to properly game the system.

Don't let a small perceived thematic inconsistency occurring in only the first round of combat create problems for your entire game.

The combat system is an abstraction.  Combat rounds and consecutive actions exist to make the DM's life easier, and are concerned more with modeling game balance than out-of-combat reality.

If the discontinuity of how the first combat round operates versus how the non-combat world works were to bother me, I'd probably be far more hung up on movement issues (e.g., "How does a PC who I was describing as running side-by-side with another suddenly sprint 30' ahead and then pause to wait for the other to catch up?").


----------



## Deset Gled (Jun 13, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Admit it.  The system is just broken here, and there's NO quick patch.   :\



That's what I thought about Immediate actions when I first heard about them.  A nice idea that works really horribly in actual play.

Swift actions, I'm looking at you next.


----------



## Bagpuss (Jun 13, 2007)

mikebr99 said:
			
		

> It's a 1st level alternate class feature in phbII
> 
> Mike




And a pretty cheap item in the Magic Item Compendium.


----------



## Michael Silverbane (Jun 13, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Nail, I think that's the point with #1.  Warblades get better when they know there's a fight - just look at Battle Clarity.




That still leaves the problem that a 3rd level rogue does not actually gain the +1 Dodge bonus from his Trap Sense ability when he sets off a trap that makes an attack roll...  As well as making _feather fall_ somewhat less useful.

Later
silver


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 13, 2007)

Michael Silverbane said:
			
		

> That still leaves the problem that a 3rd level rogue does not actually gain the +1 Dodge bonus from his Trap Sense ability when he sets off a trap that makes an attack roll...




They still do. Trap Sense doesnt require an Immediate action.  



> As well as making _feather fall_ somewhat less useful.




Feather Fall specifically says it can be used in an unexpected fall, even though it's an Immdeiate Action to cast


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 13, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> They still do. Trap Sense doesnt require an Immediate action.




But it's a Dodge bonus, lost when Dex bonus to AC is lost, such as when a 3rd level rogue (but not a 4th level rogue) is flat-footed.

-Hyp.


----------



## Caliban (Jun 13, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> They still do. Trap Sense doesnt require an Immediate action.




Except that you lose any dodge bonuses to AC along with your Dex bonus when you are flat-footed... and a 3rd level rogue does not have Uncanny Dodge.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jun 14, 2007)

Caliban said:
			
		

> Except that you lose any dodge bonuses to AC along with your Dex bonus when you are flat-footed... and a 3rd level rogue does not have Uncanny Dodge.



So... the moral of this story is that Rogues should stand still til their 4th level. 

Mike


----------



## Christian (Jun 14, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> He didn't jump, though.
> 
> -Hyp.




So? Are you suggesting that falling victim to a trap allows you to move when it's not even your turn? There are specific situations (eg. when being bull rushed) where the rules allow movement on another character's action. But this doesn't appear to be one of them. When the pit trap open under your feet, you no longer have any movement options other than 60' straight down; but you wouldn't start that mandatory movement until your next action.

And no, you can't Delay.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 14, 2007)

Christian said:
			
		

> So? Are you suggesting that falling victim to a trap allows you to move when it's not even your turn?




You're not moving, you're being moved.  How far you fall is unrelated to your speed.  It's much more akin to being bull-rushed than to jumping.

-Hyp.


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 14, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> But it's a Dodge bonus, lost when Dex bonus to AC is lost, such as when a 3rd level rogue (but not a 4th level rogue) is flat-footed.
> 
> -Hyp.




Good point, I had to go to the FAQ which does agree with your read. 

The wording of trap sense describes it as an intuitive sense, i.e. transcending normal awareness. From this, I'd change it to a +1 *insight* bonus to AC, rather than rewrite flat-footedness. 

IME, making it a dodge bonus was yet another editting error from WotC.


----------



## Nifft (Jun 14, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> From this, I'd change it to a +1 *insight* bonus to AC, rather than rewrite flat-footedness.




Except that Insight bonuses don't stack. Let's just make it an unnamed bonus. 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 14, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> Good point, I had to go to the FAQ which does agree with your read.




You don't need the FAQ - it's in the Core Rules.

_*Dodge Bonuses*
Some other AC bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. These bonuses are called dodge bonuses. *Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses.* (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other._

or

_*Dodge Bonus*
A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. *Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have.* Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks._

-Hyp.


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 14, 2007)

Mistyped, it's not 'your read' but a quotation of RAW. 

I went to the FAQ to see if they resolved the problem with Trap Sense giving no AC benefit against surprise traps. They havent.

I chose an insight type bonus because it best fits the description of the ability, isnt lost with flat-footedness, and is a named like the dodge type it replaces. When I house rule I like to stay as close to the RAW as possible to not disturb other parts of the system.


----------



## irdeggman (Jun 14, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> You're not moving, you're being moved.  How far you fall is unrelated to your speed.  It's much more akin to being bull-rushed than to jumping.
> 
> -Hyp.





When, in the initiative round would the distance a character who is falling be resolved?


The rules make it pretty clear that movement is resolved descretely, not continously. So whther it is character movement or distance falling it is to be resolved at a specific point in the initiative order.

IMO that leaves only two options.

1. Roll initiative for the trap - and at the point in the initiative order the falling is resolved

2.  Use the falling character's initiative as the point in the initiative order to resolve the falling distance.

There are precedents for using both. Most on going spell effects are resolved on the caster's initiative. Some effects, however have the "affected" character make his roll at the start of his action in the initiative order.

Both options are equally legal, IMO, but using the falling character's initiative is easier and makes things more visually acceptable, IMO.


----------



## The Souljourner (Jun 14, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> if we decide that - screw it! - immediate actions CAN be used when flat-footed, then we open up an even larger can of worms (E.G. performing an immediate action while flat-footed would remove the flat-footed condition).




Well, part of this could be fixed by just rewording how you lose flat-footedness to something akin to "When a combat starts, you are flat footed until the beginning of your first turn.  If you are surprised, you instead stay flat footed until your first turn after the surprise round."  That way it has nothing to do with "acting", only matters when your turn occurs (which is pretty much the intention).

For the second problem of [not] being able to use immediate while flat footed, I suggest simply tacking on "this may be used while flat footed" to those immediate actions that are appropriate to being used while flat footed (or vice versa if you think most of them should be usable while flat footed).  Problem solved.

-Nate


----------



## satori01 (Jun 14, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> .
> Admit it.  The system is just broken here, and there's NO quick patch.   :\




I am not sure it is a bad as you make it out to be.  Lets substitute the word "Surprised" for Flat Footed...w/o the surprise round rules connotation.  In essence the real world equivalent of Flat Footed is being surprised.  I would say I do not walk around in a surprised state all day long.  Sometimes I detect things before they happen, sometimes I am not paying attention, and sometimes something surprising happens, but for the most part I say I am able to reasonably react to my environment.

I think most people are the same way, thus I would say the rules interpretation of everyone is Flat Footed all the time is bogus.

Traps are an interesting case because is a trap combat?  A monster lying in wait is an easy case,  player gets a spot check, which more than likely DM rolls in secret, player fails spot check, monster attacks, hits, has a poison similar to symbol of insanity, and player can not use the immediate action, because he is Surprised.

Most players will accept that scenario because they have a chance to avoid the results, (spot check, AC, monster has to hit,  saving throw etc).  Traps bypass alot of that due to the silly Trapfinding restriction.

I have a condition in my game I term "Surprising".  Traps are assumed to have the "Surprising" condition, which basically means the target will be minus dex.  The nice thing about this is it is not in the hands of the receipent.  Thus on the first round of combat, you are not flat footed, but you might be on the receiving end of of a few "Surprising" attacks if you rolled poorly for initiative.

This lets those with Immediate actions use them w/o the first round exception for being Flat Footed, and does not let someone use Immediate reactions to remove being Flat Footed.


----------



## pawsplay (Jun 14, 2007)

Why are immediate actions not allowed when you are flat-footed? I've never noticed that before, and it doesn't seem to do anything for the game but cause problems. Are there any ways in which this is a useful rule?


----------



## Nail (Jun 14, 2007)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Why are immediate actions not allowed when you are flat-footed? I've never noticed that before, and it doesn't seem to do anything for the game but cause problems. Are there any ways in which this is a useful rule?



Yes, there are ways in which this is a useful rule.
Taking an action removes the flat-footed condition from the person who acted.
Taking an immediate action can be done at any time, even when it is not your turn.
So if you are flat-footed, you could take an immediate action to remove your flat-footed condition.  Cast Feather Fall, for instance.


----------



## Nail (Jun 14, 2007)

Another example:

A conjurer has the alternate class ability "abrupt jaunt" from the PH II that allows him to teleport a short distance as an immediate action.

Said conjurer is surprised by an assassin.  The assassin gets a surprise round, during which the conjurer is flat-footed. 

If immediate actions could be used when flat-footed, then the conjurer could use the abrupt jaunt ability before the assassin attacks, and thus no longer be flat-footed (since the conjurer has now acted during combat).  Of course, the conjurer is also now 10 feet away, thanks to his abrupt jaunt ability.

I'll note here that the text in the PH II (page 68) also says that the ability cannot be used if the conjurer is unaware of an attack, and elaborates that with an invisible rogue example.  I'd argue that even when you are flat-footed, you are aware; you are just unable to act.


----------



## The Souljourner (Jun 14, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Yes, there are ways in which this is a useful rule.
> Taking an action removes the flat-footed condition from the person who acted.
> Taking an immediate action can be done at any time, even when it is not your turn.
> So if you are flat-footed, you could take an immediate action to remove your flat-footed condition.  Cast Feather Fall, for instance.



Well, sorta.  The flat footed rules were created before immediate actions existed, and it's obvious an interpretation such as "any action you take breaks flatfootedness" is obviously not in the spirit of the rules, which is why I suggested a revision of the flat footed rules to clarify.

-Nate


----------



## Caliban (Jun 14, 2007)

Has this really been a problem for people?


----------



## Nifft (Jun 14, 2007)

If we're allowing ToB:Bo9S, then flat-footed applies to more cases than just the first round of combat.

The earliest one I can find is *Sapphire Nightmare Blade* (DM/Strike) -- Concentration check renders target flat-footed against your attack, and you deal an extra +1d6 damage.

Thus, Immediate action counters can't be used to defend against Sapphire Nightmare Blade. And that's nice, since it's not particularly powerful otherwise.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Nail (Jun 14, 2007)

Caliban said:
			
		

> Has this really been a problem for people?



For supplements that use Immediate Actions (like ToB:Bo9S, as Nifft mentioned), the answer is "a bit".


----------



## Caliban (Jun 14, 2007)

I suppose you get an odd corner case with the "Grease" (or any balancing situation) spell as well -  If you cast grease under somone and they make their save,  they are now balancing (and thus flat-footed) and cannot do immediate actions.   

If they fail their save, they are prone but not balancing, and can do immediate actions. 

I see that as an artifact of the balancing rules more than anything else though.


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 14, 2007)

Caliban said:
			
		

> Has this really been a problem for people?




I wondered the same thing.

Besides getting use to the new rule of Immediate actions, no problem with my group regarding it. 

Flat-footedness has always been handled with the various legal options: ranks in spot/listen even if cross classed, Alertness feat, Improved Initiative, Rogues on trap sweep 10ft ahead of the party for every -1 of the biggest armor check penalty. 

We did houserule that BAB can be replace skill ranks for Sense Motive vs Feint in combat.


----------



## Quartz (Jun 14, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> In regards to falling (from a trap).
> 
> Looking at the rules for "surprise" and "traps".
> 
> ...




This is quite good: it allows a nearby character who beats the mage's initiative to try and grab the mage.


----------



## Deset Gled (Jun 14, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> Flat-footedness has always been handled with the various legal options: ranks in spot/listen even if cross classed, Alertness feat, Improved Initiative, Rogues on trap sweep 10ft ahead of the party for every -1 of the biggest armor check penalty.
> 
> We did houserule that BAB can be replace skill ranks for Sense Motive vs Feint in combat.




Skill ranks, Alertness, armor check penalties, and feinting have no bearing on flat-footedness.


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 14, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> Skill ranks, Alertness, armor check penalties, and feinting have no bearing on flat-footedness.




Spot/listen ranks reduce instances of being caught flat-footed by detecting hidden foes, thereby avoiding surprise. Alertness bonuses these skills. 

Armor check penalties, which lower hide and move silent, reduce your odds of catching opponents flat-footed. A rogue next to the low Dex, fullplate clad cleric with no ranks in move silent or hide aint stealthy. A rogue within sneak attack distance long before the cleric is even heard is. 

Feinting ... *produces* short term flat-footedness.


----------



## The Souljourner (Jun 14, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> Skill ranks, Alertness, armor check penalties, and feinting have no bearing on flat-footedness.




Was wondering about that myself... what are these various legal options?  Sounds like a bunch of house rules (not that there's anything wrong with that)


[Edit]  Bah, asked and answered before my post.  That doesn't really change the fact that there are some distinctly funky rules about immediate actions and not being able to do them while flat footed.

I still think just having some of them labelled as usable while flatfooted would fix things (most notably feather fall).

And yeah, I'm with Caliban et al... this hasn't exactly been a huge problem for us (although to be fair, we're just starting our first game with a significant number of people who even have immediate actions).

-Nate


----------



## occam (Jun 14, 2007)

Someone said:
			
		

> From now on my traps will also do the usual effects and also summon a fiendish chicken to attack the party. That way I can make sure they're flat-footed, since they are in combat.




Sigging!


----------



## airwalkrr (Jun 14, 2007)

I don't have time to read the whole convo, but here is my 2 cents.

An immediate action cannot be performed when you are flat-footed unless the description of the action specifically says otherwise. _Stay the hand_, for example, requires an immediate action that you cannot cast while flat-footed. However, _nerveskitter_, which would be pointless if you couldn't use it while flat-footed, states specifically in the spell description that it is an exception to the rule and therefore you can cast it even when flat-footed. The feather fall spell is neither. It is a free action that you can cast at any time, even when it is not your turn. Consequently, you can use it as long as you are capable of taking actions. In a sense, it is the original "immediate action," but I believe if it were to be revised, it would be an immediate action with a qualifier like nerveskitter stating you can cast it even while flat-footed.

Now regarding traps, IIRC there was an FAQ entry that explained that you are considered flat-footed against traps unless you have the uncanny dodge class ability. Hence, you cannot use immediate in response to a trap unless you have the uncanny dodge class ability.


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 14, 2007)

The Souljourner said:
			
		

> [Edit]  Bah, asked and answered before my post.  That doesn't really change the fact that there are some distinctly funky rules about immediate actions and not being able to do them while flat footed.




Uhm ... sorry for the quick reply?   



> I still think just having some of them labelled as usable while flatfooted would fix things (most notably feather fall).




Feather Fall does specifically state that it's an exception to the flat-footed/ immediate action issue. SRD: _"You can cast this spell with an instant utterance, quickly enough to save yourself if you unexpectedly fall."_


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 14, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Yes, there are ways in which this is a useful rule.
> Taking an action removes the flat-footed condition from the person who acted.




Not really.

_*Flat-Footed:* At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (*specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order*), you are flat-footed._

[glossary]flat-footed[/glossary]: _Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed *until their first turns in the initiative cycle.* A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity._

If I take an action like speaking or casting Feather Fall, but have not yet had my first turn in the initiative cycle, I'm still flat-footed by that definition.

The condition summary expresses it differently:
_*Flat-Footed:* A character *who has not yet acted during a combat* is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity._

But this is a summary, and the Initiative section above elaborates on what 'not yet acted' means: "specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order".

-Hyp.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 14, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> Feinting ... *produces* short term flat-footedness.




Feinting produces short term denied-Dex-bonus-to-AC.  Not the same thing.



			
				airwalkrr said:
			
		

> The feather fall spell is neither. It is a free action that you can cast at any time, even when it is not your turn.




If you're using immediate actions, Feather Fall is an immediate action - the text defining immediate actions specifically calls the spell out as being an immediate action, not a free action as the spell describes.

-Hyp.


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 15, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Feinting produces short term denied-Dex-bonus-to-AC.  Not the same thing.




LOL   

Ok, a successful Feint produces a very *flat-footed-like* affect on AC.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 15, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> LOL
> 
> Ok, a successful Feint produces a very *flat-footed-like* affect on AC.




But not one that denies immediate actions.

-Hyp.


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 15, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> But not one that denies immediate actions.
> 
> -Hyp.




Didnt type that it did. Just expressing my ease in using flat-footed by RAW


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 15, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> If you're using immediate actions, Feather Fall is an immediate action - the text defining immediate actions specifically calls the spell out as being an immediate action, not a free action as the spell describes.



Original source trumps everything except errata.  There hasn't been errata on that spell, so you can use feather fall anytime because the description of the spell says you can.


----------



## hong (Jun 15, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Original source trumps everything except errata.  There hasn't been errata on that spell, so you can use feather fall anytime because the description of the spell says you can.



 How metaphysical.


----------



## Wish (Jun 15, 2007)

So, back to _feather fall_.  If it's an immediate action, and you can't use immediate actions while flat-footed, and you're flat-footed any time you're not in combat, it's pretty useless.  Even if you walk up to a cliff, see the cliff clearly, and say, "Well, it's a pretty tough climb, I'll _feather fall_ to the bottom," you're out of luck.  The cliff didn't surprise you, but you're not in combat, so you can't cast the spell.  Ridiculous.  Do you propose that one of the other PCs start shooting arrows at you so you can get to the bottom of the cliff?  If you believe, as a previous poster has stated, that the clause allowing FF to be used in an unexpected fall isn't subsumed in the immediate action designation, could you, perhaps, close your eyes and ask your friends to shove you off the cliff at some unexpected point in the future?


----------



## Caliban (Jun 15, 2007)

Wish said:
			
		

> So, back to _feather fall_.  If it's an immediate action, and you can't use immediate actions while flat-footed, and you're flat-footed any time you're not in combat, it's pretty useless.  Even if you walk up to a cliff, see the cliff clearly, and say, "Well, it's a pretty tough climb, I'll _feather fall_ to the bottom," you're out of luck.  The cliff didn't surprise you, but you're not in combat, so you can't cast the spell.  Ridiculous.  Do you propose that one of the other PCs start shooting arrows at you so you can get to the bottom of the cliff?  If you believe, as a previous poster has stated, that the clause allowing FF to be used in an unexpected fall isn't subsumed in the immediate action designation, could you, perhaps, close your eyes and ask your friends to shove you off the cliff at some unexpected point in the future?




"you're flat-footed any time you're not in combat"  -This statement has not been proven to be true.  

What causes you to become flat-footed again when combat ends?


----------



## tomBitonti (Jun 15, 2007)

*Setting up a scenario*

Sorry, late to this discussion.

I'm setting up a scenario to work out the details of how this should work:

*) Character walks into a room.
*) Enemy has hands on a level to drop out the floor of the room (creating a pit).
*) Initiative is rolled; enemy goes first, character second.
*) Enemy pulls level.
*) Character gets a saving throw to avoid falling into the newly opened pit.
*) Character *does not fall yet*.
*) Character goes, and begins to fall.

The important points are that:

*) the character makes the saving throw on the enemy's action (I'm convinced of this);
*) but falls on the character's action (I'm thinking this is true, but am not wholly convinced).

I'm setting up this example to contrast with:

*) Outside of combat;
*) Character walks down a hallway and across a pit trap;
*) Pit trap opens;
*) The character makes a saving throw;
*) If they failed that saving throw, they fall.

And to contrast with the same scenario, but in a combat, that is, changing "Outside of combat" to "On the character's initiative".

Thx!


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 15, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> How metaphysical.



One endeavours.


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 15, 2007)

Caliban said:
			
		

> "you're flat-footed any time you're not in combat"  -This statement has not been proven to be true.




The right column of pg. 102 of the FAQ addresses a question of traps that use attack rolls. It's said that flat-footed AC is used, suggesting that in between combats you're flat-footed. I'd reason you go back to being flat-footed after the _current_ combat ends, before you can take an action in your _next_ combat.


----------



## Caliban (Jun 15, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> The right column of pg. 102 of the FAQ addresses a question of traps that use attack rolls. It's said that flat-footed AC is used, suggesting that in between combats you're flat-footed. I'd reason you go back to being flat-footed after the _current_ combat ends, before you can take an action in your _next_ combat.




Traps with attack rolls using your flat-footed AC is a FAQ ruling, nothing more.  It simply suggests that being hit by a trap with an attack roll is like being attacked in the surprise round, not that you walk around flat-footed all the time by default. 

The rules cover being flat-footed at the beginning of combat, not in between combats.   Certain things can make you flat-footed (balancing, some spells), but they are all spelled out specifically.


----------



## Someone (Jun 15, 2007)

Those events don't cause you to become flat footed: they make you lose your Dex bonus to AC, which is quite different as Hypersmurf points above. Regarding flatfootedness, there are just two options: either you're flat footed except in combat, or somehow the start of combat makes you to become flat footed (maybe because every character is busy rolling initiative?)


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 15, 2007)

Caliban said:
			
		

> Traps with attack rolls using your flat-footed AC is a FAQ ruling, nothing more.  It simply suggests that being hit by a trap with an attack roll is like being attacked in the surprise round, not that you walk around flat-footed all the time by default.




So you're saying that a character going about their daily business is dodging, ducking, and weaving (using their Dex bonus to AC) but relaxes when someone they're unaware of attacks them; then when they can react go back to their normal state of defensive manuevers?


----------



## irdeggman (Jun 16, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Original source trumps everything except errata.  There hasn't been errata on that spell, so you can use feather fall anytime because the description of the spell says you can.





True, except that if you are using Immediate actions the definition of them (in CA for example) specifies that feather fall is not an immediate action and not a free action.

Since the new action (Immediate Action) definition contains the specification that feather fall has changed then it now changes.

If, however, you are not useing immediate actions then the spell work exactly as written.

This is a new rule and thus can change old ones if used.


----------



## Caliban (Jun 16, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> So you're saying that a character going about their daily business is dodging, ducking, and weaving (using their Dex bonus to AC) but relaxes when someone they're unaware of attacks them; then when they can react go back to their normal state of defensive manuevers?




No, that is what you are trying to make it seem like I'm saying.


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 16, 2007)

Caliban, I dont need to make you say anything. 

I want you to show me where I'm wrong in deducing that outside of combat, which is obviously before your next turn in combat, you're flat-footed.


----------



## Caliban (Jun 16, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> Caliban, I dont need to make you say anything.
> 
> I want you to show me where I'm wrong in deducing that outside of combat, which is obviously before your next turn in combat, you're flat-footed.




I really don't like the negative vibe I'm getting here.   We'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Squire James (Jun 16, 2007)

First of all, I would read the rule as "Immediate actions cannot GENERALLY be used when flat-footed" (in fact, MOST rules have that silent "generally" in there, in my opinion) and then work out specific exceptions to this rule.  Feather Fall, in order to be useful at all, clearly needs to violate this rule.  Similarly, a Trap Sense ability applies specifically to something that's normally a surprise situation, so I would make an exception for it as well.  If the trap also does a Quickened Summon Monster spell, then the character would be flat-footed with regard to that monster... and gain an bonus against the trap's other effects because of Trap Sense.

On the other hand, the "Moment of Perfect Mind" ability appears to be based off Concentration, which suggests the character has to be aware of the threat and able to take a Moment to make his Mind Perfect.  Therefore, it would make sense that the ability not be available if the character was not aware of the threat.  Furthermore, if the ability were meant to be used all the time, it wouldn't be worded in a way that suggests it takes an action at all.  Therefore, it seems to be designer intent that the ability NOT be usable at certain times, such as when surprised by a trap.

In short, a Symbol of Insanity SHOULD have a fair chance on working on just about all level 8 characters.  Level 15 casters should be able to do stuff like that!


----------



## Christian (Jun 16, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> I want you to show me where I'm wrong in deducing that outside of combat, which is obviously before your next turn in combat, you're flat-footed.




Can you show where we're wrong in deducing that when you're out of combat, you're not in combat? That's the part of the _contra_ position that seems most difficult to me ...


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 16, 2007)

Christian, I cant show you that because you're not wrong. When you're not in combat, you're not in combat.  

Alls I'm saying is that when you're not in combat, I believe your AC is you're flat footed AC -- because outside of combat you're flat-footed. Acting in combat, reacting to the dangerous situation you find yourself in, is what brings about your full AC therby removing your flat-footedness.


----------



## irdeggman (Jun 17, 2007)

Squire James said:
			
		

> First of all, I would read the rule as "Immediate actions cannot GENERALLY be used when flat-footed" (in fact, MOST rules have that silent "generally" in there, in my opinion) and then work out specific exceptions to this rule.  Feather Fall, in order to be useful at all, clearly needs to violate this rule.  Similarly, a Trap Sense ability applies specifically to something that's normally a surprise situation, so I would make an exception for it as well.  If the trap also does a Quickened Summon Monster spell, then the character would be flat-footed with regard to that monster... and gain an bonus against the trap's other effects because of Trap Sense.




Or you rule traps and their consequences follow the rules of actions that a character does and that, in the case of falling, a character falls on his turn - not continuously.

Ruling it this way makes feather fall work just fine as an immediate action.

Since on a character is no longer flat footed when it is his turn, barring special effects - he can then use an immediate action (like casting feather fall).


----------



## Nifft (Jun 17, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> Or you rule traps and their consequences follow the rules of actions that a character does and that, in the case of falling, a character falls on his turn - not continuously.
> 
> Ruling it this way makes feather fall work just fine as an immediate action.




Ruling it that way makes _feather fall_ work just fine as a *standard* action. Or you could just use _fly_. If you don't fall until your turn, you would have all your actions available, no?

 -- N

PS: And AoOs become really, really annoying if they don't resolve immediately.


----------



## irdeggman (Jun 17, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Ruling it that way makes _feather fall_ work just fine as a *standard* action. Or you could just use _fly_. If you don't fall until your turn, you would have all your actions available, no?




You should (have all of your actions barring some other limiting factor being in place) if it would help.

An immediate action cast on your turn is the same as swift action and won't draw AoO - which casting a standard action spell would.

And that (making it a standard action spell) would work for a pit trap - but what if you got knocked off of your flying mount after you'd taken your turn?

A standard action feather fall wouldn't help - an immediate action one would, and still be applicable in the aforementioned trap situation.


----------



## Wish (Jun 18, 2007)

All you folks in the "flat-footed outside combat" camp, please answer this:

In a game that's using immediate actions* can a wizard walk up up to a cliff, look it over, think about it for a minute, and cast _feather fall_ to get to the bottom unharmed without first asking his companions to attack him?  Note that this is not an "unexpected fall" so you can't use that cop-out to get around answering the question.

*I have to specify this, because otherwise somebody will insist on using only the PHB text despite the entirety of the thread being devoted to non-PHB rules.


----------



## Deset Gled (Jun 18, 2007)

Wish said:
			
		

> All you folks in the "flat-footed outside combat" camp, please answer this:
> 
> In a game that's using immediate actions* can a wizard walk up up to a cliff, look it over, think about it for a minute, and cast _feather fall_ to get to the bottom unharmed without first asking his companions to attack him?  Note that this is not an "unexpected fall" so you can't use that cop-out to get around answering the question.




Well, I'm more in the "It's ambiguous" camp, but...

In cases where initiative is never rolled against a pit or trap, one way to run the game is to assume that initiative could be rolled in the situation normally, but isn't because the outcome is pre-destined.  From there, you can run flat-footedness based on how things would have gone if initiative was actually rolled.  For example, in the case of the trap vs. an unexpecting PC, if initiative were rolled, the trap would always have a surprise round against the PC.  The PC would be flat-footed in the surprise round, and would only be un-flat-footed after the trap had gone off.  In the example you give, the PC would be falling off of the cliff on their own turn, and (if initiative had been rolled) would not be flat-footed since it is their action.


----------



## SadisticFishing (Jun 18, 2007)

Well, you can take Swift Actions while flat-footed (oddly enough), so you could just take the Immediate one on your own turn as a swift one...

But also, of course you're flat-footed outside of combat, that's what "flat-footed" means - you're not in combat yet.


----------



## Christian (Jun 18, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> Christian, I cant show you that because you're not wrong. When you're not in combat, you're not in combat.
> 
> Alls I'm saying is that when you're not in combat, I believe your AC is you're flat footed AC -- because outside of combat you're flat-footed. Acting in combat, reacting to the dangerous situation you find yourself in, is what brings about your full AC therby removing your flat-footedness.




But you're acting like it's obvious that this is the rule, when it's not. As we're reading the text, it states that in combat, before your first action, you are flat-footed. It does not, on this reading, say anything about having a flat-footed status outside of combat. And personally, one of the main reasons I find this reading compelling is that there are so many _ad hoc_ rulings that would need to be made otherwise, at least some of which would have been included in the rules had this been the way it was intended to work. If the flat-footed condition begins only when an actual combat starts, then none of these situational discussions need to be made. It may seem weird, but it's so much easier to adjudicate, I wouldn't think of playing it any other way.


----------



## irdeggman (Jun 18, 2007)

Wish said:
			
		

> All you folks in the "flat-footed outside combat" camp, please answer this:
> 
> In a game that's using immediate actions* can a wizard walk up up to a cliff, look it over, think about it for a minute, and cast _feather fall_ to get to the bottom unharmed without first asking his companions to attack him?  Note that this is not an "unexpected fall" so you can't use that cop-out to get around answering the question.
> 
> *I have to specify this, because otherwise somebody will insist on using only the PHB text despite the entirety of the thread being devoted to non-PHB rules.





Good question.



> Feather fall works only upon free-falling objects. It does not affect a sword blow or a charging or flying creature




So a wizard can't cast it until he is falling in the first place. I would treat the fall as the start of a combat round (similar to the trap issue).


Here is a better one for those in the "not flat-footed when walking around camp.

Why would you be suddenly flat-footed at the start of combat when you weren't a mere instant before?

Not counting surprise, you are still considered flat-footed until your first action of the combat round.

And another one:

How can you cast feather fall outside of combat since it has a duration of "until landing or 1 rd/level"  Using the 1 rd/level as the absolute duration (IMO).


----------



## Deset Gled (Jun 18, 2007)

SadisticFishing said:
			
		

> Well, you can take Swift Actions while flat-footed (oddly enough), so you could just take the Immediate one on your own turn as a swift one...




This is wrong.  By the rules, you cannot turn an Immediate action into a Swift one (nor can you cast a Swift action spell as a Standard action).  If you are flat-footed but can still take actions (for example, if you are balancing), there is no way to cast an Immediate action spell, despite the fact that you could cast a Standard action spell.


----------



## irdeggman (Jun 18, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> This is wrong.  By the rules, you cannot turn an Immediate action into a Swift one (nor can you cast a Swift action spell as a Standard action).  If you are flat-footed but can still take actions (for example, if you are balancing), there is no way to cast an Immediate action spell, despite the fact that you could cast a Standard action spell.




pg 86 of COmplete Arcane

"Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn."

So I believe you are mistaken about turning an immediate action into a swift action.


----------



## SadisticFishing (Jun 18, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> This is wrong.  By the rules, you cannot turn an Immediate action into a Swift one (nor can you cast a Swift action spell as a Standard action).  If you are flat-footed but can still take actions (for example, if you are balancing), there is no way to cast an Immediate action spell, despite the fact that you could cast a Standard action spell.




No, using swift actions as standards is different from immediate as swift, because using an immediate action counts as your swift action for the turn, wouldn't using an immediate action count as your swift action?


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 18, 2007)

Yeah, reading the same rule quoted by irdeggman tells me how to resolve Featherfall in the example Deset gives. I found it on the SRD here, start of the second paragraph describing Immeditate Actions. 




			
				Christian said:
			
		

> But you're acting like it's obvious that this is the rule, when it's not. As we're reading the text, it states that in combat, before your first action, you are flat-footed. It does not, on this reading, say anything about having a flat-footed status outside of combat. And personally, one of the main reasons I find this reading compelling is that there are so many ad hoc rulings that would need to be made otherwise, at least some of which would have been included in the rules had this been the way it was intended to work. If the flat-footed condition begins only when an actual combat starts, then none of these situational discussions need to be made. It may seem weird, but it's so much easier to adjudicate, I wouldn't think of playing it any other way.




Acting in combat ends flat-footedness. Combat ends. At the start of next combat, until you act, you're flat-footed. This *strongly suggests* (i.e. does not explicitly say) that flat-footed is the state of a character in between acting in combats. 

A FAQ entry (5/23/07 pg.102), answered by a representative of the game's developers, supports this by stating attack-roll traps (which dont initiate combat) must hit the flat-footed AC of a target. It doesnt explain this as the trap acting like an unseen archer, but by a strict reading of the RAW. 

What are some, or one, of these ad hoc rulings that need be made? Uncanny dodge works the same.


----------



## Nail (Jun 18, 2007)

Diggus Rex said:
			
		

> Acting in combat ends flat-footedness. Combat ends. At the start of next combat, until you act, you're flat-footed. This *strongly suggests* (i.e. does not explicitly say) that flat-footed is the state of a character in between acting in combats.



Exactly.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jun 18, 2007)

heh... full circle...

The way I am going to do it, is that everyone is always flat-footed, unless they make their spot/search check against something that is trying to attack them in some way... then the suprize round starts as normal. So, no immediate actions until you've acted.

Feather fall is the exception to this rule. 

I also give all Rogues the auto search ability with respect to traps... similar to Elves and hidden/secret doors.

YMMV

Mike


----------



## Diggus Rex (Jun 18, 2007)

Exactly, I always held that Blade the monk warblade can not use MoPC in the example Nail gives.


----------



## irdeggman (Jun 18, 2007)

mikebr99 said:
			
		

> heh... full circle...
> 
> The way I am going to do it, is that everyone is always flat-footed, unless they make their spot/search check against something that is trying to attack them in some way... then the suprize round starts as normal. So, no immediate actions until you've acted.
> 
> Feather fall is the exception to this rule.




I still don't think you need to make feather fall the exception.

You just need to determine when to resolve how a character is falling. That will determine if they are flat-footed or not and can use feather fall.

You can't cast the spell on something/someone who isn't free-falling in the first place and since the duration is given in rounds it leads credence to the fact that the spell is not supposed to work outside of combat (or at least was designed to be cast in combat as opposed to outside of it like spells with time durations).


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Jun 18, 2007)

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but in SW: Saga, you are only flatfooted when there is a surprise round and you have not acted yet.  Otherwise, if combat starts normally, no one is considered "flat-footed".  Might be an interesting house rule to adopt.


----------



## occam (Jun 22, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> "Blade" (a Mnk 2/ Warblade 6) steps on a Symbol of Insanity
> (Will save DC 22) that he did NOT know was there.  He is
> surprised.  He's not in combat.  Initiative is not, and will
> not, be rolled.  Blade must roll a Will save.
> ...




BTW, how did Blade acquire a Concentration check of +25? I can figure up to about +22 (11 ranks, 18 Con, Skill Focus, Blade Meditation, _amulet of health +4_). I'm curious because I just created a warblade character, and am wondering how to increase her Concentration check further.


----------



## Nail (Jun 22, 2007)

occam said:
			
		

> BTW, how did Blade acquire a Concentration check of +25? I can figure up to about +22 (11 ranks, 18 Con, Skill Focus, Blade Meditation, _amulet of health +4_). I'm curious because I just created a warblade character, and am wondering how to increase her Concentration check further.



Mnk (Undying Way) gives a +2 to concentration, and he has a magic item that does the rest.

Really, if you're a Warblade, there's no reason to NOT max out your Concentration skill.  It's a no-brainer.


----------



## SteveC (Jun 22, 2007)

I would suggest handling this issue one of two ways:

Either run your traps as Encounter Traps (i.e., they have an initiative score) or, more simply, having the characters roll spot or listen checks to determine if they were aware of the trap or effect going off in advance.

Frankly, I think the Feather Fall example being called out is a bad rule, because by the RAW it means you can't feather fall when you're surprised by a sudden fall, which is the primary use of the spell!

--Steve


----------



## PaulKemp (Jun 22, 2007)

IMC, we treat flat-footedness as a relative condition that has applicability only in combat, i.e., it is a state that has in-game relevance only as between two combatants -- one is flat-footed as to the other, which results in certain consequences.  

We base this on the language of the "flat footed" condition:  *A character who has not yet acted during a combat * is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. 

Basically, we deem flat-footedness to be a term with no meaning outside of a combat.  In combat, it serves to designate the respective states of one combatant to another.  Outside of combat, it has no meaning.

This makes sense to us conceptually and makes for generally easy adjudication.  Outside of combat, immediate actions can be cast at any time (since one is never flat footed, within the meaning of the term as defined in the rules).  In combat, one may be restricted from casting an immediate action because one is flat footed relative to one's opponent.  This does not mean that the flat footed PC suddenly went from alert (non flat footed out of combat) to lax (suddenly flat footed in combat).  It simply means that within the context of the combat, the non-flat footed combatant is able to act more quickly, before the flat footed combatant can "react normally to the situation."

Works for us.


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 22, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Really, if you're a Warblade, there's no reason to NOT max out your Concentration skill.  It's a no-brainer.



It's a no-brainer for a Fighter to take Shield Ward, but not all do...


----------



## Moon-Lancer (Jun 22, 2007)

i suggest your not flat footed when outside combat. it has some oddness, but its the cleanest solution.


----------



## Nail (Jun 22, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> It's a no-brainer for a Fighter to take Shield Ward, but not all do...



Err?

Not at all!  Many, many, MANY Ftr concepts call for a 2-hd weapon.  No shield there!

Concentration, OTOH, works with several Martial Adept manuevers, all of which fit nicely into just about any martial adept concept.  Shining Example: Moment of Perfect Mind.

Still, this isn't a thread about balance issues with Martial Adept manuevers; it's about Immediate Action shinnanigans outside of combat, when surprised. To Feather Fall or Not Feather Fall -- that is the question!


----------



## Nail (Jun 22, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> i suggest your not flat footed when outside combat. it has some oddness, but its the cleanest solution.



FWIW, we've decided to go that route.....for now.


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 22, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Not at all!  Many, many, MANY Ftr concepts call for a 2-hd weapon.  No shield there!



Exactly my point - utility of a given mechanic is based on concept and execution.  There's only one discipline that uses Concentration: Diamond Mind.  Warblades have access to four other disciplines, any of which makes for a great character, none of which makes Concentration a no-brainer.

Back on topic, I've taken to having players roll initiative vs traps to see if they're flat-footed or not.  The trap's Init modifier is 1/2 its CR.  Works quite well.
-blarg


----------

