# George RR Martin still writing?



## Banshee16 (Apr 26, 2010)

I've noticed that George R. R. Martin still hasn't updated his site regarding A Dance with Dragons since January 2008....two years ago.

Have there been any discussions, or has there been any news as to what's going on?

Banshee


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 26, 2010)

He updates his LiveJournal regularly, and yep, he's still plugging away.


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## Krug (Apr 26, 2010)

He's been writing and editing some Wild Cards stuff hasn't he?


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 26, 2010)

Krug said:


> He's been writing and editing some Wild Cards stuff hasn't he?




In addition to the SoIF stuff, yep.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 26, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> In addition to the SoIF stuff, yep.



Pics or it didn't happen.

I'll believe he's actually writing when the next book is on shelves.

Man is pulling a farking Dark Tower here.  While that is less irritating than pulling a Wheel of Time, it's still irksome.


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## Remus Lupin (Apr 26, 2010)

Ahem ...

"George R. R. Martin Is Not Your B**ch" -- Neil Gaiman

I try to remind myself of this whenever I get frustrated or impatient with him (and I do!).


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 26, 2010)

Of course he's not.  That said, delivering Book 1, Book 2, etc creates a social contract with your readers that you're actually going to finish the damn thing at some point.  If you can't handle expectation, don't write open ended series.  If you don't know where the hell you're going when you start, you end up putting your readership through torturous wandering plots and interminable waits.

He's not my B**ch, sure, but nor am I his.  I'm not starting a letter-writing campaign or some such nonsense, but nor can I be expected to be gracious about the whole thing.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 26, 2010)

Did you read Gaiman's note before you responded, out of curiosity? Seems like he addresses your exact complaints just fine. We can rehash it, of course.


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## Klaus (Apr 26, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Ahem ...
> 
> "George R. R. Martin Is Not Your B**ch" -- Neil Gaiman
> 
> I try to remind myself of this whenever I get frustrated or impatient with him (and I do!).



Yeah, you know what? Gaiman can suck it.

Martin had the book almost finished, then decided he needed more space to tell the story. He cut the book in two, crammed one half with tons of details that were not indispensable, released it, and decided to change the other half to the point where he felt the need for an almost entire re-write.

Is he letting me down? No.

Is he losing me as a customer? Hell yeah.


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## Felon (Apr 26, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Did you read Gaiman's note before you responded, out of curiosity? Seems like he addresses your exact complaints just fine. We can rehash it, of course.



"Addressing" and "dismissing" are not the same thing. I read it, and found it utterly self-serving in the way that only writers seem to be able to manage. 

_Oh, a writer's life is so hard...The people who put money in my pocket are such ingrateful parasites....You, my fan, are pest...Oh, I'll take your money, Flanders, but I'm not gonna plow your driveway...._

World's smallest violin playing just for the writers here. And yet, some people drink the Kool Aid.

Seems quite obvious to me and quite a few others that there is an implicit agreement between an author and a reader that the author will make a good-faith attempt to not simply leave the story dangling unfinished. The reason is simple: an incomplete story represents a lousy investment of time, money, and interest. An unfinished tale is rather like a half-finished toilet--what good is having only part of it?

Gaiman's dismissal of that simple and manifest observation is unfortunately typical behavior for a creator who has achieved success. As it is with anyone who takes part in a non-binding agreement, once he's got what he wants out of it, all those good-faith intentions he had back when he was struggling suddenly undergo a shift. 

Let's sum this "implicit contract" up in a word: loyalty. A concept Gaiman does not feel applies between writer and reader. All we have is a simple business transaction. Therefore readers who expect it are presumptuously treating the writer as if he were their b****. At least, that's how he feels NOW.


Klaus said:


> Yeah, you know what? Gaiman can suck it.



Essentially, this.


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## Felon (Apr 26, 2010)

Canis said:


> Man is pulling a farking Dark Tower here.  While that is less irritating than pulling a Wheel of Time, it's still irksome.



The flipside is that once King got all dedicated to finishing Dark Tower (after his brush with death), the end result shows that he pushed himself too fast. The big ideas just weren't there, so the big confrontation at the end is a letdown.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 26, 2010)

Total aside @ Felon:
Agreed about the Dark Tower to some extent.  Although my problem wasn't with the ending, which was irksome but appropriate, but with the whole "meeting the author" bit, which Vonnegut did very well and King did in a way that felt like pure self-aggrandizement and nonsense.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 26, 2010)

Interesting, I read something completely different from Gaiman: we're all human, we all push as hard as we can in whatever ways we can, we're all entitled to private lives, and we all have perfectly valid reasons why we end up letting people down, whether you think they're valid or not. That they're both writers allows for a greater specific empathy, but doesn't define the argument.

I take it you've never promised something that you've been unable to follow through with. "Social contract" is a very nice idea -- and dude, do I _ever_ want to read that next book -- but the reality is that people are frail.

Let's imagine that the reason the next book isn't out is that Martin, perhaps unknown to himself, is afraid that what he's produced isn't actually good enough, isn't at the level of the other books. Let's further imagine that he's effectively emotionally paralyzed on that front, that he's not making any progress and can't seem to get himself to finish something up and get it to the publisher. I don't know that this is the case, but for a moment let's pretend it's the actual problem. _That's ok with me._ If it was the case, would it not be ok with you? If so, is it because you think you're better than that, that you would never have such a problem? If you were in that situation, would you magically overcome it somehow?

It may be some other much more mundane reason, but even if it's that, it's just the way it is. We're all imperfect humans doing the very best they can despite piles and piles of intellectual, emotional, and physical limitations.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 26, 2010)

Felon said:


> The flipside is that once King got all dedicated to finishing Dark Tower (after his brush with death), the end result shows that he pushed himself too fast. The big ideas just weren't there, so the big confrontation at the end is a letdown.




Maybe King wasn't actually capable of following through on it at the level of expectation that the first few books set up.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 26, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Maybe King wasn't actually capable of following through on it at the level of expectation that the first few books set up.



Of course he wasn't.  I'm guessing he knew he wasn't, but _at least he did it anyway._  That's really all I ask.  I'd rather have an imperfect ending and some closure than sit around for decades unresolved.

If you don't have a roadmap for an epic story, don't start publishing it.  I don't expect you to have every word worked out, but I expect you to have some idea where it's going.

If you are so thin-skinned that you're going to decide in the face of sales figures and clamoring fans that your work is so bad you can't bring yourself to finish it, you have no business getting into the epic series business.

In short, think before you leap.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 26, 2010)

That assumes some pretty amazing foresight, including all kinds of things like the story not taking on a life of its own with new directions, new ideas, and exciting new paths (maybe even the very paths you actually like in the story).

 But even if you hold people to that standard (and how do you know he doesn't know where the story is going? that certainly wasn't in my supposition), people still fail. Move on, y'know? If the story does continue, great, but man, as you point out he hasn't had an update in more than 2 years, and _that_ update was "it's been a year since I've updated y'all, there's nothing new," and it's been nearly 5 years since the last book: just be let down, assume you'll never see it, resolve whatever bitterness remains, and move on. If another one comes out you can decide whether to re-involve yourself in the series, with the possibility of him failing yet again.

That's my advice, anyway.


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## Felon (Apr 26, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Interesting, I read something completely different from Gaiman: we're all human, we all push as hard as we can in whatever ways we can, we're all entitled to private lives, and we all have perfectly valid reasons why we end up letting people down, whether you think they're valid or not. That they're both writers allows for a greater specific empathy, but doesn't define the argument.
> 
> I take it you've never promised something that you've been unable to follow through with.



When I fail to deliver, I'm contrite. Generally speaking. 

If Martin came out and said "look, guys, like James Cameron, I got my 'Eff you!' money and I don't feel like finishing the series", that would feel better than this endless dawdling. But at this point it is very hard to get a sense that he's passionate about finishing the books.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 26, 2010)

Oh, I don't have a wellspring of bitterness left for this.  I ran out of actual bitterness for this kind of thing on book 7 of Wheel of Time.  Now I'm just bemusedly rueful with a chance of snarky comments when it comes up on a messageboard.

I only work up a head of steam when someone (including Gaiman) tries to tell me I'm not entitled to my rueful and/or snarky status.  Most of it is actually self-directed, since I was stupid enough to invest time in another unfinished series.

But it's not _all_ self-directed.  It's not like the man had such a crisis of faith that it stopped him from working.  He's writing, editing, and getting TV deals.  He could at least show me some indication that he's not just milking and stalling for time.  That will make me feel less stupid for trusting him.  Or he could publicly admit he *is* milking/stalling/etc, in which case I can strike a dramatic prose (with shaking fist), scream "DAMN YOU, GEORGE R.R. MARTIN!" and officially write him off.

So, to get back to pure pithy inanity... since he didn't look before he leapt, he could at least poop or get off the pot.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 27, 2010)

I agree that it would be best to say, "look guys, not sure if I'm ever going to finish this, sorry." My guess is that he either can't from a "can't accept it personally" perspective, or can't from a "contractually obligated" and "wants HBO to believe" perspective.

Or, I suppose, it's also possible that he's actually writing and rewriting and re-rewriting, actually working his ass off on it, and so such an acknowledgment might feel untrue.


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## LightPhoenix (Apr 27, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> I take it you've never promised something that you've been unable to follow through with. "Social contract" is a very nice idea -- and dude, do I _ever_ want to read that next book -- but the reality is that people are frail.




I don't think "promise" is the best word here.

The flaw I see in that reasoning is that most cases money isn't changing hands.

If you go into work, and you promise that you'll have X done by Y, then at Y shrug and say "oops," you _might_ get away with that once.  However, you're being paid to do something, and it's not unjustified to expect a return on that expense.  Now, obviously writing is a little different, but not exceptionally so that it invalidates the thought exercise.  Perhaps a better example might be an investor and a company; the investor needs customers to make money, and the company needs to produce.

This brings me to where I think the _real_ problem is - the publishers and editors.  They absolutely need to put their foot down with him.  In fact, I think it's the exact same problem that was had with Robert Jordan.  I'm not saying all creativity needs this - in fact, I think most authors do fine without it.  That's reason enough for me to say that they need to step in.  Obviously at some point there's been a breakdown in the publisher-editor-author process at the author end.  That's _why_ there are publishers and editors.

I can understand and sympathize with GRRM's frustration with his fans.  I think a lot of fans are over the top, criticizing him as if he's not allowed to have a life outside of writing.  It reminds me of _Misery_, and not in a good way.  However, I don't think their behavior excuses him from all criticism about the timetable of his writing.


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## Darth Shoju (Apr 27, 2010)

Meh. I`d rather he take his time and do it right. From what he posts on his `Not a Blog`, he seems to be working on it regularly. It seems he wrote himself into something of a corner, and is trying to get out of it without screwing it all up. I can appreciate that.

Sure the delay is very frustrating, but to claim he doesn`t care and has no intention of ever finishing seems unfair and presumptuous to me.

And those `fans` who set up a website dedicated to complaining loudly whenever he does anything but write ASoIaF are the picture of deluded self-entitlement.


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## Felon (Apr 28, 2010)

Darth Shoju said:


> Sure the delay is very frustrating, but to claim he doesn`t care and has no intention of ever finishing seems unfair and presumptuous to me.



Is a teacher unfair and presumptuous because she simply assumes "the dog ate my homework" is an excuse? Fairness dictates that you are obliged tp take everyone on their word unless you have direct evidence to the contrary?

It is not presumptuous to place a finite limit on benefit of the doubt.  Reason dictates that credibility eventually gets used up. That's perfectly fair.

Now, has Martin enjoyed sufficient time to produce, or does he still have some benefit of the doubt to burn? That's where opinions vary.


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## Remus Lupin (Apr 28, 2010)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Writing is hard.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 28, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again: Writing is hard.



Nonsense.  Writing is easy.  Self-editing is hard.

I can type all day and generate pages upon pages of material.  The first problem is that most of it is trash.  The second problem is that I'm too close to it to have a consistently good idea of which parts are trash and which aren't.  When you talk to good writers, most of them will tell you that falling in love with your own prose and/or being unable to slash and burn your own prose are the toughest things to deal with.

This is one of the purposes of editors, to control the author's ego and prevent story bloat.  The fifth time GRRM took a hard left into uncharted narrative territory that had nothing to do with wrapping anything up while simultaneously introducing 2 new characters, his editor should have picked up the phone and said, "This is insane.  If you want to do this, you need to justify this.  I need a roadmap here."


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## Remus Lupin (Apr 28, 2010)

Writing is not typing. Nor is it editing.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm equally capable of writing longhand in the notepad I carry at all times for that purpose.  Most of it is still crap, even if not typed.

If editing wasn't part of the writing process, we'd never end up with anything readable by an audience besides the author.  Or do your first drafts come out as epic poetry fit for the ages?

In any case, you've established that the physical act of putting pen to paper or fingers to keyboard is *not* writing.  And you've established that the subsequent parsing of text is *not* writing.  Definition by exclusion is a fairly empty exercise.

So, what *is* writing?


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## Remus Lupin (Apr 28, 2010)

My point is the writing -- the creative expression of ideas in a written form -- is distinct from either typing or editing. And creatively expressing ideas in written form is hard, whether typed or longhand, long before you ever get to the point of editing.


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## Desdichado (Apr 28, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Did you read Gaiman's note before you responded, out of curiosity? Seems like he addresses your exact complaints just fine. We can rehash it, of course.



Just because Gaiman said it doesn't mean it's true.  Gaiman's blog post came off as pretty self-serving, if you ask me.  He's resisting the paradigm shift that writers are having to undergo right now.

I just read recently a report from an editor who attended a sci fi fiction writing Expo.  One of his big take-aways is that in today's market, writers do a most of their own marketing.  By maintaining blogs, twitter accounts, facebook accounts, webpages, what-have-you, they are interfacing directly with their customers.  

The end result of that is that customers develop expectations based on the things that _you say._  If you announce a book, yeah, people are going to expect it to appear.

Gaiman is correct in that there's no legal obligation for a writer to deliver on his promises.  He is completely incorrect in implying that there isn't a compelling _business_ reason to deliver on them.  Making promises and then dilly-dallying is how you _lose customers._


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## A Passing Maniac (Apr 28, 2010)

Hobo said:


> The end result of that is that customers develop expectations based on the things that _you say._  If you announce a book, yeah, people are going to expect it to appear.



This is the worst thing about the situation, for me. I can understand and empathize with personal issues or writer's block or other projects or simple procrastination or whatever causing delays in the writing process. But promising multiple times that "The book is pretty much done, this is it, for real, the book is coming later this year! Sorry, did I say later this year? I meant next year. Well, no, the _next_ next year..." is extremely frustrating.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 28, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> My point is the writing -- the creative expression of ideas in a written form -- is distinct from either typing or editing. And creatively expressing ideas in written form is hard, whether typed or longhand, long before you ever get to the point of editing.



We shall have to agree to disagree on at least two points, then.


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## Desdichado (Apr 28, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> My point is the writing -- the creative expression of ideas in a written form -- is distinct from either typing or editing. And creatively expressing ideas in written form is hard, whether typed or longhand, long before you ever get to the point of editing.



I think you're confusing disagreement with misunderstanding.

I, at least, understand perfectly what you're saying.  I just disagree.  It's easy to write.  It's even easy to write coherent, decent prose.

Writing exactly what you want; yeah, that can be harder.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 28, 2010)

Hobo said:


> Just because Gaiman said it doesn't mean it's true.



No, nor did I say so. Canis' response just seemed to me to not have taken any of it into consideration or to be a reply to it, despite beginning and ending his post as though it was.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 28, 2010)

That's probably because I didn't re-read it before responding.  I read it several months ago, iirc, and frankly didn't feel compelled to work at retaining the specifics.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 29, 2010)

No complaints here. Just explaining to Hobo why I wrote that.


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## Remus Lupin (Apr 29, 2010)

Hobo said:


> I think you're confusing disagreement with misunderstanding.
> 
> I, at least, understand perfectly what you're saying.  I just disagree.  It's easy to write.  It's even easy to write coherent, decent prose.
> 
> Writing exactly what you want; yeah, that can be harder.




I don't see that we're disagreeing, though I'd say its hard to even get a close approximation of exactly what you want to say.


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## Zaukrie (Apr 29, 2010)

This unfinished series is why I don't buy books that are part of series that aren't done. He broke the social contract he had with me, and I no longer trust any writer to finish their work. Also, I no longer trust any book to come out close to the release of the previous book.

So, his delay in completing what he promised broke not only his implied agreement with me (that he'd finish the books in a timely manner so I could read them and enjoy them), but he broke that so hard that I pretty much refuse to buy books that aren't self contained anymore unless the whole series is published.


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## Darth Shoju (Apr 29, 2010)

Felon said:


> Is a teacher unfair and presumptuous because she simply assumes "the dog ate my homework" is an excuse? Fairness dictates that you are obliged tp take everyone on their word unless you have direct evidence to the contrary?
> 
> It is not presumptuous to place a finite limit on benefit of the doubt.  Reason dictates that credibility eventually gets used up. That's perfectly fair.
> 
> Now, has Martin enjoyed sufficient time to produce, or does he still have some benefit of the doubt to burn? That's where opinions vary.




I think you've written yourself a pretty generous definition of "direct evidence".

Has he burned up his goodwill? Sure, he clearly has with a number of people. I have no problem with someone saying "this is taking too long, and I don't feel that you are respecting how frustrating this is for me, so I'm not buying any more of your books." I do have a problem with people assuming that he has absolutely no interest in finishing a series that he has been contracted to complete, and is his magnum opus. That's making a big assumption about his character, and an unwarranted one in my opinion.

There are many reasons for why he hasn't finished the next book that don't make him out to be a liar and in breach of his contract.


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## Desdichado (Apr 29, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> I don't see that we're disagreeing, though I'd say its hard to even get a close approximation of exactly what you want to say.



Well, that's where we're disagreeing.


Darth Shoju said:


> There are many reasons for why he hasn't finished the next book that don't make him out to be a liar and in breach of his contract.



Either that phrase is missing a "could" of "might be" or you know something that nobody else posting in this thread seems to.  Are there reasons he's not written it yet after announcing two years ago that he had it almost complete?


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## Fast Learner (Apr 29, 2010)

Yes, there are reasons. If there weren't reasons then it would be done.


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## Klaus (Apr 29, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Yes, there are reasons. If there weren't reasons then it would be done.



Not the least of which could be "he wrote himself into a corner".

The whole "slicing Dance With Dragons in half and padding the halves up" thing has done more harm than good to his series. IMHO, he might have had more success in trimming down DwD or pushing some of the final chapters into the next book.


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## Remus Lupin (Apr 29, 2010)

Where I think it's presumptuous is assuming that somehow or another Martin is "shirking" some responsibility he has to you, personally, or to his fandom collectively to finish "your" book.

As I said at the outset, I get impatient too. I had "A Dance with Dragons" on my Amazon.com preorder queue for, like, two years before I realized that I might as well just wait for him to finish the book before I went and ordered it). And, to be frank, I'm not really wild about "Wild Cards."

I've been working on a book in my own field (not Science Fiction or Fantasy, alas!) for about seven years in one way, shape, or form or another. Sometimes, the work on the project is going well. At other times, it slows to a halt. Right now, it's halted. That doesn't mean I'm not working; it just means I'm working on other projects, which are also important.

At the same time, I'm doing background processing on the stalled book. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about conceptual, theoretical, or practical problems that are getting in the way of finishing it. But, for the sake of my sanity as much as for the sake of my other projects, I have to put it aside for now. Once I get back to it, I hope that I'll be ready to crank it out in a relatively short period of time.

In some regards, what separates a successful writer from an unsuccessful one is the ability to actually finish a project (whether you can get it published, and whether it's any good, are also of course important, but can't be judged if you never finish). I can't keep track of the number of failed doctoral dissertations that fell by the wayside simply because the author coulnd't finish.

As for Martin, he does have a very concrete obligation -- to his publisher. And since I suspect he got a nice fat advance on this book, I have now doubt that he's in regular conversation with his editor about when he's going to finish the damn thing. We can only hope that the pressure is increasing daily, and that it will have the desired effect.


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## Felon (Apr 29, 2010)

Darth Shoju said:


> There are many reasons for why he hasn't finished the next book that don't make him out to be a liar and in breach of his contract.



You feel he still deserves benefit of the doubt. I feel he's used it up. And that's that.


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## BryonD (Apr 30, 2010)

Hobo said:


> Just because Gaiman said it doesn't mean it's true.
> 
> ...
> 
> He is completely incorrect in implying that there isn't a compelling _business_ reason to deliver on them.  Making promises and then dilly-dallying is how you _lose customers._




Just because it isn't true doesn't mean that Gaimen said it.

I completely agree with your the point of your statement.  But you are straw-manning Gaiman in a serious way to claim he implied anything of the sort.

What he said is completely accurate and completely fair.  It is also completely reasonable to expect that a lot of customers will be lost.  And that is 100% compatible with every word Gaimen typed.


An aside point.....
Even with that, I bet he doesn't lose many customers at all.
They will bitch and scream and whine and moan.

Then they will beat each other with sticks to be the first in line when it does come out.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 30, 2010)

Felon said:


> You feel he still deserves benefit of the doubt. I feel he's used it up. And that's that.




I'm curious why you'd participate in threads about it, then. To complain, I guess?


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 30, 2010)

Can someone explain how he wrote himself into a corner with the last one?  It's been a while since I read it, and I can't find my copy.

Feel free to spoilertext it, of course.

Brad (who insists on waiting for the paperback for this series)


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## Desdichado (Apr 30, 2010)

BryonD said:


> I completely agree with your the point of your statement.  But you are straw-manning Gaiman in a serious way to claim he implied anything of the sort.



Huh?  No I'm not.  I'm responding to exactly what he said.

Are you sure you followed the right link?


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## Felon (Apr 30, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> I'm curious why you'd participate in threads about it, then. To complain, I guess?



Same reason anyone does. To express myself--including through complaining--and win people over to my way of thinking. 

Silly question, really.


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## Felon (Apr 30, 2010)

BryonD said:


> An aside point.....
> Even with that, I bet he doesn't lose many customers at all.
> They will bitch and scream and whine and moan.
> 
> Then they will beat each other with sticks to be the first in line when it does come out.



Ha. Probably.


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## JediSoth (Apr 30, 2010)

cignus_pfaccari said:


> Can someone explain how he wrote himself into a corner with the last one?  It's been a while since I read it, and I can't find my copy.
> 
> Feel free to spoilertext it, of course.
> 
> Brad (who insists on waiting for the paperback for this series)




I believe what people are referring to is GRRM's belief that he wrote himself into a corner in the current book he is writing and needs to fix it before it can go into editing and then get released.

Depending on how early in the text he wrote himself into a corner, and how much of the text wrote before he realized it, that could mean a LOT of re-writing to fix it.


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## Klaus (Apr 30, 2010)

cignus_pfaccari said:


> Can someone explain how he wrote himself into a corner with the last one?  It's been a while since I read it, and I can't find my copy.
> 
> Feel free to spoilertext it, of course.
> 
> Brad (who insists on waiting for the paperback for this series)



GRRM had written Feast For Crows to encompass all the major characters, including the ones at the Wall and in the East. Then he saw that the book was getting too big. Instead of trimming out unnecessary details or ancillary characters that didn't add to the major storyline, he took out all scenes from the Wall and the East and pumped in even more microdetailing for the Westeros chapters.

This might have had the side effect of invalidating a few plot points of his Wall/East chapters, or he may be trying to find a way to reflect events from Westeros in the other regions, or he simply can't find as many microdetails to add.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 30, 2010)

Felon said:


> Same reason anyone does. To express myself--including through complaining--and win people over to my way of thinking.
> 
> Silly question, really.




Not really. Do you plan to read it when it does come out, or when the series comes out?

I ask because I don't totally understand these threads sometimes. I'm not saying this is the case with you -- it is why I'm asking -- but sometimes it seems like some folks have a grudge about this and feel a need to voice it year after year. Seems like it would be something they'd want to eventually let go of. I know that said griping gets old to those who don't feel that way. It's not trolling, per se, but as the years roll on it begins to feel more and more like it.

Again, not trying to shut you up or something. Just trying to understand why so many people still keep coming to these threads, year after year, to complain. If they're not planning to read it when/if it does come out, that is.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 30, 2010)

Do you see the exact same posters commenting year-to-year, Fast Learner?  I doubt it.

For example, this is the first year I bothered to weigh in here on GRRM at all.  Until recently I hadn't read any of his books because I didn't want to pick up another unfinished series.I waited until I heard _Dance with Dragons_ was coming out to even start reading the series, so I didn't read it until 2007 or 2008, I think.  (So there are people with more than a decade more investment in this series than myself... poor bastards.)

Additionally, there's the TV show, which is a real mixed bag to me.  It dredges up all my old concerns about the dreadful turn towards investment in extraneous characters and flat-out plot obfuscation that began to happen in the last book... which made me seriously doubt my decision to finally start reading the series.

On the other hand, the editorial and timing requirements of a TV format might be what is necessary to put a boot in his ass and make him write the story, so this has returned some degree of hope.

It is hope, not doubt, that fuels my ability to post on these subjects.  But the doubt colors my ability to think well of any of it.  Alas, the hope is looking for a compelling argument for its existence, and finding little of use.  The doubt, however, is up to its elbows in crass commercialism and B.S.

EDIT:
Incidentally, I know I'm not picking up any more of the books until every single one of them is out and the story is finished.  If the TV show is any good, that will probably become my canonical version, because I can't imagine it will wander quite so aimlessly given that HBO tends to limit the number of seasons on these things.


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## Felon (Apr 30, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Not really. Do you plan to read it when it does come out, or when the series comes out?
> 
> I ask because I don't totally understand these threads sometimes. I'm not saying this is the case with you -- it is why I'm asking -- but sometimes it seems like some folks have a grudge about this and feel a need to voice it year after year. Seems like it would be something they'd want to eventually let go of. I know that said griping gets old to those who don't feel that way. It's not trolling, per se, but as the years roll on it begins to feel more and more like it.
> 
> Again, not trying to shut you up or something. Just trying to understand why so many people still keep coming to these threads, year after year, to complain. If they're not planning to read it when/if it does come out, that is.



OK, fair enough. 

To answer your question, I really don't know. I tried reading the first book about five years ago and it really wore me out. Very long with a low quotient of events. Then about a year-and-a-half ago I started listening to the audiobooks. Much easier. The series seemed at times to be a grand Shakespearean drama, then at other times blatantly gratuitous torture-porn (Martin's really loves that whole "put to the sword" shtick). I think he's lost his passion, but his contractual obligations may force him to plod along. At the very least, I'll wait for some reviews. I'm not getting burned again like I did with Dark Tower.

As to your pondering about why people like to harp about their pet peeves, I think it's pretty straightforward: complaining is a good release for pent-up aggravation. Aggravation is ongoing for most folks, and generally doesn't get "let go" of, it's just repressed, sublimated, or exhausted temporarily. Complaining is healthier than drinking, smoking, and fight clubs. It's easier to get away with than beating up hookers or setting fires to condemned buildings. All things considered, complaining gets a bad rap.


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## Remus Lupin (Apr 30, 2010)

I can understand the impatience. I just KNOW that he's got lots of interesting plot bombs he's going to drop on us when he starts pealing back the veil and driving the story toward it's climax. I really want to find out just what's going on in all of that, and that's why I'm eager to read the next book.

What's more, I really don't want the fat bastard to die on me and leave me guessing for the rest of my life. I guess I can only hope that he's tagged someone to finish the series based on his notes for him if he keels over at some point prior to finishing.


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## Felon (Apr 30, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> What's more, I really don't want the fat bastard to die on me and leave me guessing for the rest of my life.



Ah, Karl Edward Wagner, you brilliant, damnable, drunken sot. We'll never know what happens with Kane after _At First Just Ghostly_.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 30, 2010)

Canis said:


> Do you see the exact same posters commenting year-to-year, Fast Learner?  I doubt it.




Actually yeah, it's pretty much the same 6 or 7 with another half-dozen new voices. Next year it will likely be 5 of those first 6 or 7, plus 1 or 2 of this year's new crop, and another half-dozen new.

Mind you, I'm here every year saying, "it'll be done when it's done, or it won't ever be done and I'll just enjoy re-reading what I already have," so apparently I'm a glutton for punishment.

Still, it's a curious phenomenon. (doo doo, doo-doo-doo)


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## Felon (Apr 30, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Mind you, I'm here every year saying, "it'll be done when it's done, or it won't ever be done and I'll just enjoy re-reading what I already have," so apparently I'm a glutton for punishment.
> 
> Still, it's a curious phenomenon. (doo doo, doo-doo-doo)



Nothing phenomenal about people periodically restating a grievance for as long as the cause of the grievance persists.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 30, 2010)

It is if you think the grievance will persist forever, which seems to be the case for some.


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## Mistwell (Apr 30, 2010)

Just go start reading Steven Erikson (the first book notwithstanding, for it lacks something) and get your "good fantasy" fix that way.  By the time you finish, George R R Martin's next book will be out


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## Desdichado (May 1, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> I ask because I don't totally understand these threads sometimes. I'm not saying this is the case with you -- it is why I'm asking -- but sometimes it seems like some folks have a grudge about this and feel a need to voice it year after year. Seems like it would be something they'd want to eventually let go of. I know that said griping gets old to those who don't feel that way. It's not trolling, per se, but as the years roll on it begins to feel more and more like it.



The same question could be asked in reverse; why do you keep coming to threads that you know are designed to be little more than rant/complaint fests just to express your exasperation with the fact that people rant and complain?  Year after year, according to you?

I understand the desire to rant and complain well enough; the desire to go into threads that you should know beforehand that you're not going to like, and get frustrated by completely predictable responses; that I understand far less.


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## cignus_pfaccari (May 1, 2010)

Klaus said:


> GRRM had written Feast For Crows to encompass all the major characters, including the ones at the Wall and in the East. Then he saw that the book was getting too big. Instead of trimming out unnecessary details or ancillary characters that didn't add to the major storyline, he took out all scenes from the Wall and the East and pumped in even more microdetailing for the Westeros chapters.
> 
> This might have had the side effect of invalidating a few plot points of his Wall/East chapters, or he may be trying to find a way to reflect events from Westeros in the other regions, or he simply can't find as many microdetails to add.




Ah, so he feels that he's in a corner, though we don't know what's making up the corner.  Fair enough.

Thank you!

Brad


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## Fast Learner (May 1, 2010)

Hobo said:


> The same question could be asked in reverse; why do you keep coming to threads that you know are designed to be little more than rant/complaint fests just to express your exasperation with the fact that people rant and complain?  Year after year, according to you?



I believe the topic of the thread is whether or not Martin is still writing. Seems like a logical place for folks who are interested in his future potential writing to come and discuss it. The thread does not, to me, at all seem to be a place designed for ranting and complaining. It's just what it became.



> I understand the desire to rant and complain well enough; the desire to go into threads that you should know beforehand that you're not going to like, and get frustrated by completely predictable responses; that I understand far less.



First, I'm neither exasperated nor frustrated. Did I say something like "why the hell don't you whining bitches shut the hell up, I'm sick of you constantly bitching"? Because that's what I'd sound like if I was exasperated.

Me, I'm a fan of the books wanting to talk about the hopeful future of them. Just asking the folks who repeatedly complain about their motivation, trying to grok it. Read what I wrote, if you would, not what you think my emotions are. It's cool.


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## Desdichado (May 1, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Me, I'm a fan of the books wanting to talk about the hopeful future of them. Just asking the folks who repeatedly complain about their motivation, trying to grok it. Read what I wrote, if you would, not what you think my emotions are. It's cool.



I did read what you wrote.  Now, backpedal faster.


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## Starman (May 2, 2010)

Here's a very recent podcast interview with Martin. He talks about his recently released anthology, _Warriors_, the next ASoIaF book, and the upcoming HBO series.

The Dragon Page » Cover to Cover #405A: George R. R. Martin


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## Umbran (May 2, 2010)

Hobo said:


> Now, backpedal faster.





What, we don't have enough personal snark in edition warring that we need to spread it to OT stuff as well?  

Let's not go this route this time.  Please keep it polite.  Thanks.


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## drothgery (May 2, 2010)

Canis said:


> While that is less irritating than pulling a Wheel of Time, it's still irksome.




It's not like Jordan _decided_ to come down with a fatal disease. Having said that, despite Jordan being dead, the Wheel of Time series is still going to be done before _A Song of Ice and Fire_ is (there's no reason to believe Sanderson will not finish _Towers of Midnight_ this year and finish the main sequence of The Wheel of Time with _A Memory of Light_ next year). Quite possibly before _A Dance with Dragons_ comes out.


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## Fast Learner (May 2, 2010)

Hobo said:


> I did read what you wrote.




It would appear that what we have here is a failure to communicate. Feel free to go on misunderstanding, no skin off my back.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 2, 2010)

drothgery said:


> It's not like Jordan _decided_ to come down with a fatal disease.



I wasn't talking about him dying.  I'm not so crass as that.  I was talking about the decade of nonsense I was party to between 1991 and 2001.

I gave up reading the series after he spent the 6 books wandering in the bushes instead of actually progressing the story.  Every once in a great while, we saw a modicum of progress, but for every plot point he resolved, he introduced 2 new ones and 3 new characters.


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## Banshee16 (May 2, 2010)

Ouch...I definitely didn't intend to start a griping thread with my original post.  My question was honestly intended.....though maybe I could have been a little clearer.

I obviously understand the man has a life, though his career, his job, is writing.  I agree with those who've talked about the social compact, and how starting a series like ASoIaF creates the expectation that one would finish it.  But I also understand he may have accidentally wrote himself into a corner.

In any case, what I was curious about was whether there were any other articles or podcasts available which maybe had more information than the last ASoIaF update from Mr. Martin's website, which was updated 2 years ago.

The link provided by Starman has helped.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (May 2, 2010)

Now that I've listened to the podcast, the cause of the delays is more clear.  Seems almost like he's a victim of his own success.  When he talks about the experience of writing some of his other books, and how people wouldn't be aware of the upcoming book until it went out for sale, vs. ones where he has legions of people chomping at the bit to read each new book in the series, it makes a lot more sense.  And, with the expectation that this is his "magnum opus", that adds a lot of pressure to the overall situation.

Lots of other good authors to read in the meantime.  I do think, however, that the longer he takes to write book 5, the more problems he's going to create for HBO with the TV series.  If they're working on Season 1 now, and there's one season per book, then theoretically, five years from now he will need to have book 6 completed....and he doesn't have book 5 done yet.

Banshee


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## Darth Shoju (May 3, 2010)

cignus_pfaccari said:


> Can someone explain how he wrote himself into a corner with the last one?  It's been a while since I read it, and I can't find my copy.
> 
> Feel free to spoilertext it, of course.
> 
> Brad (who insists on waiting for the paperback for this series)




He's referred a number of times to a  "Meereenese Knot". Deduce from that what you will.

Also, I thought this journal entry was interesting and somewhat germane.


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## Desdichado (May 3, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> It would appear that what we have here is a failure to communicate. Feel free to go on misunderstanding, no skin off my back.



I don't think so.

But, hey.  No skin off my back either.  I don't even read Martin, although I probably will when (if!) he ever finishes this series.  Which is the only reason I stumbled into this thread in the first place; to see if that seemed like it might possibly ever happen.

I did think Gaiman's "rant" was silly, though.


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