# Rogues stealing from their own party



## JoeGKushner (Nov 9, 2005)

So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Nov 9, 2005)

My group has kind of a tact agreement not to steal from one another...  although, we do not allow evil characters in the group (neutral are fine) so that might make a difference.

I should clarify - we don't steal anything very important from one another. Like, a rogue occasionally pick-pockets one of the other characters for a few gold, then uses it to buy the group a round at the tavern - the other character (and player) usually laughes it off when discovered.


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## Crothian (Nov 9, 2005)

I perfer the non stealing from each other.  And that's only because in my experience people who steal for the party can't stand it when they get caught and when the party gets back at them for stealing.


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Nov 9, 2005)

When this has been tried in our group the thief has usually 'met with an accident'. Now, stealing from other sources in the game world and not sharing with the other PCs is a different matter and is just good role playing.


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## Mallus (Nov 9, 2005)

I think its an important campaign parameter that needs to be agreed on before play starts. It falls under the header 'What kind of campaing are we going to play?'.

I don't think its a question of 'realism' at all.


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## JoeGKushner (Nov 9, 2005)

FATDRAGONGAMES said:
			
		

> When this has been tried in our group the thief has usually 'met with an accident'. Now, stealing from other sources in the game world and not sharing with the other PCs is a different matter and is just good role playing.





Interesting. Does the GM  then need to watch out what he puts in the campagin?

Say the GM puts a Wand of Magic Missiles into the game at a low level to help the mage out. The rogue finds it and sells it and the party doesn't know about it.

Is the rogue stealing from the party or another source and not sharing?


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## lukelightning (Nov 9, 2005)

Realism?  What would you do "realistically" if a coworker stole from you? Kick the bastard out, that's what you'd do. And if you were Zog the Archmage of Energy, you'd probably incinerate him as well.

You see, there is a social contract between players:  You don't abuse meta-game forces that keep our characters together (I mean meta-game in the neutral, descriptive sense).  Because you and some friends are gaming together and all have characters, the characters are lumped into a party, even though realistically Sir Otto Von Ratzenbanger the Highborn would probably have nothing to do with grubby Roguely MacStealingstuff.  We, as D&D gamers, ignore a fair amount of "realism" for the sake of making the game work.

But stealing/harming other PCs takes betrays that system and takes advantage of it, to the detriment of the game.  If you feel your character should be free to steal from the others, then the others should be free to say "we don't want your character in the party.  Roll up a new one."


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## Greg K (Nov 9, 2005)

In our group, the rogue is free to try and steal  or take advantage of another character.  It does lead to intersting roleplaying, but the player just needs to be ready for his character to face the consequences if caught.


Some examples

1.  The rogue would exchange silver pieces or some bauble for the Lizardman's "shiny rocks".

2.  The rogue first met the party by attempting to pick pocket the Barbarian.  The rogue got caught by the druid and, if the paladin had not intervened, the rogue would have been killed by the barbarian.  Eventually, the rogue overheard that the party was trying to rescue a princess.  Assuming, there would be a reward for the rescue, the rogue offered to help party and became their guide through the city free of charge.  The rogue became a full party member when he ended up on the run with the rest of the party following a less than clean escape.


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## Nighthawk (Nov 9, 2005)

As a player, I avoid it. If it is unavoidable, I either try to work something out or move on. As a GM, I prefer that the players decide on the issue.


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## painandgreed (Nov 9, 2005)

We decide the nature of the game at the begining of the campaign and from there it is still allowed but the other players basically get a metagaming veto if the wish to use it.


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## Mallus (Nov 9, 2005)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> But stealing/harming other PCs takes betrays that system and takes advantage of it, to the detriment of the game."



You should add a caveat: unless the players all agree to allow that kind of behavior.

I don't like stealing from other players, but that's probably because I never play thieves. I don't mind getting stolen from, depending on the nature of the campaign.

But in the Dragonstar campaing that's just finishing up, the party plays a little game called 'Let's aim our loaded weapons at each other' roughly twice a session. No ones pulled the trigger, yet... I have high hopes for the final session (but that's probably because I play a cowboy-sorceror with Haste, Fireball, and no less than two high-energy weapons on his person at all times). 

For some reason, we all find it enormously entertaining.


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## Shining Dragon (Nov 9, 2005)

As long as my Fighter can kill other party members, so can Rogues steal from them.


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## Peter Gibbons (Nov 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?



It depends.  If the theft is only possible because of metagame reasons (the thief's player keeps the treasure list, for example), then such theft is just _cheating_, and the player should be dealt with appropriately (in most cases, that means kicked out of the group).  If the theft is impossible because of metagame reasons (some other player keeps the treasure list, and will therefore have to be aware of the theft, for example), then such theft should be avoided because the other players will be unable to "firewall" the metagame info from their characters' knowledge--unless, of course, all of the players agree that having the thief steal stuff from them will be wonderfully good fun, and gleefully role-play their characters' ignorance of what's going on.  That doesn't happen too often, IME.

Now, if there are no metagame concerns, it's just a question of realism.  How is the rogue accomplishing the theft?  And how is he keeping it secret?  The DM should be completely, totally, and perfectly fair in resolving these questions.  In most cases, that means the thief is going to get caught sooner or later.  And when that happens, he's likely going to (a) die, or (b) wish he could.  If the thief's player (or anyone else, really) is going to complain about that when it happens, the group should probably just agree that intraparty theft is a Bad Idea and agree not to do it, even though it would be "in character."


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## StupidSmurf (Nov 9, 2005)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> Realism?  What would you do "realistically" if a coworker stole from you? Kick the bastard out, that's what you'd do. And if you were Zog the Archmage of Energy, you'd probably incinerate him as well.
> 
> You see, there is a social contract between players:  You don't abuse meta-game forces that keep our characters together (I mean meta-game in the neutral, descriptive sense).  Because you and some friends are gaming together and all have characters, the characters are lumped into a party, even though realistically Sir Otto Von Ratzenbanger the Highborn would probably have nothing to do with grubby Roguely MacStealingstuff.  We, as D&D gamers, ignore a fair amount of "realism" for the sake of making the game work.
> 
> But stealing/harming other PCs takes betrays that system and takes advantage of it, to the detriment of the game.  If you feel your character should be free to steal from the others, then the others should be free to say "we don't want your character in the party.  Roll up a new one."




That Roguely MacStealingstuff is a real turd. He stole my Arrow of Undead Slaying an hour before I needed to use it on the lich that was handing the party their butts!!!    And his name was such a giveaway! Why oh why didn't I pick up on that hint?


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## Vertaxis (Nov 9, 2005)

As a Halfling Rogue, I make it a point not to steal from the party.

Of course, when we find that treasure chest or some other locked loot, I usually find a trap and ask the party to clear the room while I open it   

Of course, the loot is not party treasure at this point.

Slight of Hand is a skill that must be well developed if a rogue tends to want to make things disappear with the party in close proximity.


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## The_Gunslinger658 (Nov 9, 2005)

Howdy-

Well, I'm one of the players in Joe's game, my take on the whole thing is, see no evil, hear no evil and talk no evil IE If she had just pocketed the item, the rest of us would be none the wiser and personally, I could care less. My character is a mage, so a few baubbles aint gonna break him. 

And even if I was a Paladin, which I came close to playing, I still could care less. But after announcing to the group she would steal the pearl, then things kinda got hairy. 

Rule number one, never ever tell fellow party members your gonna steal from them.


Scott


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## Xath (Nov 9, 2005)

It depends on the game and the character.  In games where the characters are supposed to be friends or on friendly terms, we have a general "don't be a douchebag" policy.  But in other games, it makes for some interesting role playing.


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## ThirdWizard (Nov 9, 2005)

If the players can handle it (and we can) then its fine. I hear most can't, so I'm thankful for the group I have.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Nov 9, 2005)

Never had a thief steal directly from another character. I did have one that would steal treasure and loot before they could be fairly divided. The character was caught redhanded once by another PC, and I was utterly shocked when they let it slide.


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## pntbllr (Nov 9, 2005)

In the game I get to play in rather than DM, I play a halfling rogue and I find that I'm usually sneeking things into other members packs more often than taking things from them. This helps me keep my encumberance down and by the time I want them back they just laugh it off. Of course if one of them just happens to "drop" something I would feel obligated to pick it up "for safe keeping" esspecially if its shiny and small.


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## Twinswords (Nov 9, 2005)

Why only thieves? As a fighter who kept most of the treasure and the treasure list in his back pack because of strength reasons, i have sometimes forgotten to mention small valuable obejects and then changed the administration. Gems are esspecially suited for this. You can easily steal several thousands of goldpieces over a couple of levels. So why should only a thief steal?


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## Kahuna Burger (Nov 9, 2005)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> Realism?  What would you do "realistically" if a coworker stole from you? Kick the bastard out, that's what you'd do. And if you were Zog the Archmage of Energy, you'd probably incinerate him as well.
> 
> You see, there is a social contract between players:  You don't abuse meta-game forces that keep our characters together (I mean meta-game in the neutral, descriptive sense).  Because you and some friends are gaming together and all have characters, the characters are lumped into a party, even though realistically Sir Otto Von Ratzenbanger the Highborn would probably have nothing to do with grubby Roguely MacStealingstuff.  We, as D&D gamers, ignore a fair amount of "realism" for the sake of making the game work.
> 
> But stealing/harming other PCs takes betrays that system and takes advantage of it, to the detriment of the game.  If you feel your character should be free to steal from the others, then the others should be free to say "we don't want your character in the party.  Roll up a new one."




hear hear! There is nothing realistic about potentially antagonizing people who will hold your life in their hands on a fairly regular basis.    I like cooperative parties with voluntary PC participation and no PvP. That "realisticly" eliminates klepto rogues.


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## Kahuna Burger (Nov 9, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> If the players can handle it (and we can) then its fine. I hear most can't, so I'm thankful for the group I have.



Could you possibly define "handle it"? I'd hate to think that you would be defining those of us who who dislike a certain style of PvP insultingly as being unable to handle something.


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## Peter Gibbons (Nov 9, 2005)

Twinswords said:
			
		

> Why only thieves? As a fighter who kept most of the treasure and the treasure list in his back pack because of strength reasons, i have sometimes forgotten to mention small valuable obejects and then changed the administration.



Hey, guess what?  Your "fighter" is a _thief_.



			
				Twinswords said:
			
		

> Gems are esspecially suited for this. You can easily steal several thousands of goldpieces over a couple of levels. So why should only a thief steal?



Because that's the definition of the word?


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Nov 9, 2005)

Doomed Battalions said:
			
		

> Howdy-
> 
> Well, I'm one of the players in Joe's game, my take on the whole thing is, see no evil, hear no evil and talk no evil IE If she had just pocketed the item, the rest of us would be none the wiser and personally, I could care less. My character is a mage, so a few baubbles aint gonna break him.
> 
> ...




I have to agree with your Rule #1.  

But out of curiosity, how does the rest of the group handle it? Or is that why Joe's posting here?


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## Zappo (Nov 9, 2005)

I can handle PCs that steal from my PCs no problem, depending on the relationship between the two characters. The fact that the offender will have to make another PC is certain; the only question is whether his old PC will be unusable because the party no longer wants him, because he's in jail for life, or because he's dead.

I have no conpunction about killing fellow PCs if it is obvious that it is what my character would do (that's why I don't make Evil characters; I don't like PvP and I don't like those Evil characters that are only Evil because they dress in black). Have done so in the past, will do it again if correct roleplaying demands it. You want realism, you get realism. Abusing the metagaming relation between players won't have much success with me.


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## Chimera (Nov 9, 2005)

In real life, I do not associate with people who steal.

In D&D terms:  I cannot imagine trusting my life to someone who can't be trusted with smaller things.


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## Legildur (Nov 9, 2005)

I'm shocked that it has taken so many posts before someone (Chimera in this case) mentioned the word 'trust'.

Here we have a Band of adventurers amongst whom they have to trust each other with their lives.  How trusting would you be, or how willing would you be to take risks on their behalf, if you knew they were a petty thief and you had to sleep with one eye open to prevent your belt pouch being pilfered?  Small group dynamics demand trust in order for the group to survive and function.  That is were the realism is at.  Anyone not trustworthy would be shunned or worse.

However, one of the examples above about nicking a few coins to shout a round at the bar is pretty funny and a different matter in my mind.


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## ThirdWizard (Nov 9, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> Could you possibly define "handle it"? I'd hate to think that you would be defining those of us who who dislike a certain style of PvP insultingly as being unable to handle something.




As in the game breaks down into OOC fighting when someone steals something. Not liking it is fine. Calmly talking about how you don't want that in game is also fine, and the DM putting his foot down is also fine.


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## Hammerhead (Nov 10, 2005)

In the game that I ran, several PCs and 1 NPC formed a subgroup within the party to sell off all the evil loot the party found...unholy weapons, poison, and other icky items all found their way to the black markets, with the party's Paladin none the wiser. He eventually seemed to catch on that all the Unholy Weapons were being sold, often back to some of the villainous groups the party just killed (through a series of intermediaries, of course). As such, he began destroying all the "evil" stuff the party found, including books about necromancy and the like. This caused some nice party tension 

Ironically, the rogues of the party are often some of the more honest ones...they generally have the foresight to realize that stealing a few gold from the party isn't worth it.

Is it stealing if someone finds a way to profit from the party's activities without sharing the spoils?


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## Steverooo (Nov 10, 2005)

I have played a Multi-classed Rogue (not Thief!) for years, now, without the party knowing.  I have had him steal from "his party" exactly once.  This is the party that could not agree on the division of treasure.  My PC was free with the knowledge that he gathered, until he saw that the other PCs weren't (and one of them turned out to be evil).  Then, as we were loading the treasure into the Paladin's backpack, he pocketed a gem, just in case.  His magical bow, loaned to another PC, was not returned to him...  I soon left that campaign, so I don't know what happened with the treasure.


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## ThirdWizard (Nov 10, 2005)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> Is it stealing if someone finds a way to profit from the party's activities without sharing the spoils?




I consider that stealing. Say, the rogue pockets a pouch he finds on an enemy before anyone else comes over. That's stealing from the group. Just because noone never knew about it doesn't make it not stealing, in my book.


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## diaglo (Nov 10, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?





i roleplay the hin in the story hour in my sig. hin is halfling to the other races on Aber-Toril.

i stole from the party. found items i pocketed. and so on.

IC only one remaining player in the group ever caught me.  and he repaid me in kind by stealing some things and letting me know he had done it. so we have an understanding. OoC only one player abused his metagame knowledge about it. and shut me in a room with an undead spirit and a trap. at level 7.

i'm currently waiting to reach 15th lvl for my next feat. i've been building up for power attack so i can CdG the character while i'm on guard duty and steal the choice items from him.

i have a whole tally list of exactly what everyone is carrying and what it does and is worth.


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## WayneLigon (Nov 10, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?




I don't consider it a realism enforcement and I don't consider it metagaming.

Even if it were, for some reason the rogue player always finds it unrealistic that a person, discovering their best magic item has found its way into the rogue's pocket, takes a knife and guts the rouge like fish and leaves him to die lin the gutter begging for his life like a little baby.


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## DevoutlyApathetic (Nov 10, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?




Realistically if I found out somebody I hung around with had lifted money from me, I would stop hanging around them.

If I was somebody who routinely killed people based only upon my judgement of the needs of the situation...

Stealing from your average adventuring party is one of the most stupid things a character can do.  While they are rich they are rich because they have killed "people" and taken their stuff.  Not the ideal canidate.


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## Hammerhead (Nov 10, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> I consider that stealing. Say, the rogue pockets a pouch he finds on an enemy before anyone else comes over. That's stealing from the group. Just because noone never knew about it doesn't make it not stealing, in my book.




That's not what I was referring to. That example is clearly stealing.

For example, in a previous session my party killed the big, bad ogre mage who had a lot of enemies in town. The loot from his castle was split evenly. This ogre mage had some enemies, and my rogue approached these guys and offered to kill the ogre mage in exchange for a reward. (Not mentioning that said ogre mage was already pushing up daisies). Let's say my rogue managed to gain a reward for it (he didn't, unfortunately  ) Would this be stealing, or simply being entrepreneurial and finding ways to get money the rest of the party didn't think of?

Or let's say before stopping the dreaded disaster that will destroy the world, the party rogue buys up a bunch of land real cheap in the face of the coming disaster, then sells it back to people after said disaster was averted by the party's actions.


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## Sejs (Nov 10, 2005)

Ever see the show Firefly?

Remember the lesson of Jayne and the Airlock?

Yeah, kinda like that.

They're free to _do_ it, they just have to deal with the consequences of their actions.  Adventurers deal with a lot of hard issues and dangerous situations - they tend not to be the most forgiving of folk.  Particularly when it comes to traitors.


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## Umbran (Nov 10, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?




As a gamer, I appreciate fellow gamers having enough wisdom to not do this.  Lacking this - I prefer a fellow gamer who is fully willing to take the consequences. 

Given the rather "Wild West" approach to law enforcement in most D&D games, the player can probably expect that the offending character will be beaten to a pulp, if not killed, when caught.  And given the fact that these characters rely on each other for life and limb, and such an act usually proves untrustworthyness, the character should darn well be ejected from the party.

Whichever way it goes - stealing from the party is biting the hand that feeds you.  Unless it makes up for the story-disruption it causes when the offender comes to rough justice, it's dumb.


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## ThirdWizard (Nov 10, 2005)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> That's not what I was referring to. That example is clearly stealing.




I wouldn't call that stealing. For example, say you have Profession(brewer) and in your downtime you make ale for profit. There's no reason for party members to expect any of that. There's no reason for them to expect anything from your gambling profits if you so happen to win. And, there's no reason for them to expect any money from side deals you make.


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## Umbran (Nov 10, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> I wouldn't call that stealing. For example, say you have Profession(brewer) and in your downtime you make ale for profit. There's no reason for party members to expect any of that.




If the party did all the hard work to get you the ingredients and equipment you use in brewing, then yes, they should expect some of the profit.  If they hauled your hops over the mountains and across the deserts, they'll expect to be paid, and reasonably so.  Similarly, if they killed the ogre, and that meant you could run a scam, they'll expect a cut...


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## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 10, 2005)

I'd like to know what the lines between party treasure and personal treasure are, as well.  I frequently play rogues, and I would never even think of stealing from my party.  However, in one particular case in a game, we had just cleared the room of the bad guys, looted and split the treasure fairly.  My rogue found a secret door that was heavily trapped.  The DM told me flat out "It looks very complicated..." So, I decided to try anyway, but was nervous and said, "uh, any of you guys want to aid me in this or something?"  All that did was make them back up even further than they already were.  So, I failed to disable it, rolled high on my save and survived the spell effect, and then unlocked the the treasure.  I thought I deserved everything inside, since I litterally did all the work while the party cowered, and without me there, they wouldn't have been able to retrieve the hidden loot anyway, but all the players and the DM vehemently disagreed and labeled such an action as "stealing".  Does anyone else think such a situation should also be considered stealing?


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## interwyrm (Nov 10, 2005)

The first game I played, I was a rogue, and in the first 'boss fight' the boss had a flaming sword. So... when the enemy was mostly neutralized, I got near the boss and struck him down. A round later, the rest of the enemies had been dispatched, and I promptly lewted the sword. I refused to give it up to the party, and they attacked me, so I ran out the cave, and along the way dropped caltrops all over the place.  I then hid in the bushes, and followed them to their campsite, where I stole their armor and spellbooks and left them a note saying that I would return their stuff if they promised not to attack...

Funny thing is... the weapon turned out to be intelligent, with an overpowering ego score for my 8-wis rogue.


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## Glyfair (Nov 10, 2005)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> However, in one particular case in a game, _we had just cleared the room of the bad guys_, looted and split the treasure fairly.  My rogue found a secret door that was heavily trapped.






> I thought I deserved everything inside, since I litterally did all the work while the party cowered, and without me there, they wouldn't have been able to retrieve the hidden loot anyway, but all the players and the DM vehemently disagreed and labeled such an action as "stealing".  Does anyone else think such a situation should also be considered stealing?




Would you have been able to "clear the room of the bad guys", without the group?  Presumably not.  So, using your argument, you wouldn't have been able to retrieve the hidden loot by yourself, so the party should split the treasure.  

If you are trying to decide on a party rule of thumb for the situation, you should remember that D&D parties tend to be role oriented.  The fighters deal with fighting, the clerics do the healing, the wizards deal with arcane objects and the rogues deal with traps and locks (yes, this is oversimplified,especially in the current metagame, but is still mostly true).  Should the cleric be complaining because the rogue isn't helping heal?


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## Bagpuss (Nov 10, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?




You implication is that you need to metagame to avoid stealing from each other. When that is simply not the case. As has been pointed out characters that steal from their own party don't tend to last very long, its not metagaming to not steal from associates, its sensible in character behaviour for even the most chaotic of rogues.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 10, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other




Note that it's isn't necessarily realistic for party members to steal from one another, unless the characters engaging in such back-stabbing, petty, larceny are complete and total bastards. Honestly, I think it is probably _more realistic_ for travelling companions to _not_ steal from one another, given that causing internal strife in a party tends to deprive party members of other benefits (such as being able to sleep with their eyes closed).


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## the Jester (Nov 10, 2005)

If it suits the character to steal from the party, so be it.

If it suits the party to kick the thief out, kill him or worse, so be it.

As a player I had a (relatively) recent experience that was very interesting in these regards.  I was playing a LN dwarf, who was made CE by a curse.  I kept a lot of the party treasure; so I started skimming off the top.  None of them ever caught me.

Later, I _atoned_ and turned LG.  I confessed to the party that I had been stealing from them and more than repaid everyone back.  Most of them weren't even my old party-mates, most of them having died, but I felt obligated nonetheless.


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## Inconsequenti-AL (Nov 10, 2005)

Had an odd variation on this when I was GMing. One player was saddled with keeping track of and selling any unusable loot the party gathered up... he wasn't thrilled at this role, and kept asking for someone else to do it. No one stepped up... was quite a lot of work at ~16th level.

So he decided to invest in some diplomacy skill and a few minor diplomacy boosting items. He took to negotiating all sales, became quite a good trader and regularly got more than the 'basic' 50% of market value. Reckoned he averaged around 55% of the base value. He pocketed the 5% and divided the rest amongst the party... Did this all out of session. I warned him it might cause problems, but the choice was his. 

There was a great deal of arguing when someone finally worked it out. Couple of players not happy with him, couple thought it was fair enough. Was a big in character shouting match in an inn!

What would your view be on that?


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## diaglo (Nov 10, 2005)

Inconsequenti-AL said:
			
		

> What would your view be on that?



that's my job in our party.

i have 1 rank in diplomacy and -1 from cha.
but i'm the only character connected with a guild to fence items.

so i calculate the sales of party treasure. and hand out the booty accordingly.

i also gather information from the guild about other possible adventures. and on occassion do my own freelance stuff if it is the same direction the party is headed.

but other characters also have similar missions/quests/hidden secrets. the cleric has been leading us around looking for a lost sword. which we have recovered multiple times. since his church keeps losing it.

the druid has a mission too. and the sorceror. and the bard. and the justicar. and so on..

i also end up chronicling the party (see story hour in my sig) and mapping.

and testing all the traps.

but i see these as the risks. so when i take a few things or earn a few things on side quests. i don't see them as a problem. esp since i use that money to pay for others things. pay for lodging. pay for the ale and whores. etc...

edit: at the same time i pay for my own healing. buy my own wand of clw which is used by all. pay for pearls for identifying magic by the bard. pay for my own armor and weapons. buy scrolls for the sorceror... mostly cuz i'm carrying his money. give a returning pc his share when he caught back up with us..


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## just__al (Nov 10, 2005)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> I'd like to know what the lines between party treasure and personal treasure are, as well.  I frequently play rogues, and I would never even think of stealing from my party.  However, in one particular case in a game, we had just cleared the room of the bad guys, looted and split the treasure fairly.  My rogue found a secret door that was heavily trapped.  The DM told me flat out "It looks very complicated..." So, I decided to try anyway, but was nervous and said, "uh, any of you guys want to aid me in this or something?"  All that did was make them back up even further than they already were.  So, I failed to disable it, rolled high on my save and survived the spell effect, and then unlocked the the treasure.  I thought I deserved everything inside, since I litterally did all the work while the party cowered, and without me there, they wouldn't have been able to retrieve the hidden loot anyway, but all the players and the DM vehemently disagreed and labeled such an action as "stealing".  Does anyone else think such a situation should also be considered stealing?




Picture this situation.  The party is suddenly ambushed by shadows and BIG FREAKING ARMORED GHOULS.

First round of combat you get your only magic weapon sundered by the ghouls and the party cleric, wizard and barbarian with his unholy greataxe slaughter the undead but you did nothing except get your flaming rapier broken.

Should you not get treasure and experience because you did nothing?


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## Tarangil (Nov 10, 2005)

I usually tell any "shady" characters players that when it comes to stealing within the party, it creates nothing but *discord and infighting * among the group and nobody in the end has fun playing.  

The ONLY times I let that slide is if someone in the group is a *Kender*, or has a Kleptomainiac as an insanity


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## DevoutlyApathetic (Nov 10, 2005)

Tarangil said:
			
		

> I usually tell any "shady" characters players that when it comes to stealing within the party, it creates nothing but *discord and infighting * among the group and nobody in the end has fun playing.




A very reasonable position.



			
				Tarangil said:
			
		

> The ONLY times I let that slide is if someone in the group is a *Kender*, or has a Kleptomainiac as an insanity




So it's okay so long as the character is annoying *all the time?*

If you don't accept it when it may be reasonable in character allowing people to build a character around it seem absurd.


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## diaglo (Nov 10, 2005)

Tarangil said:
			
		

> The ONLY times I let that slide is if someone in the group is a *Kender*, or has a Kleptomainiac as an insanity



that is the PHB halfling.

+2 vs fear.
favored class rogue
slight build


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## Tarangil (Nov 10, 2005)

Kenders don't have to be annoying...all the time.  They can be a handful though.  But really when it comes to them taking things, they're more likley to take the wrapper your rations came in, rather than your magick sord.

The 3E settings do make the Halflings similar to kenders, but there are some differences if you compare the classic Kender with the traditional Halfling.  But when it comes to stealing things and the roleplaying factor, the person stealing should at least think out of character also besides thinking in character.


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## diaglo (Nov 10, 2005)

Tarangil said:
			
		

> But when it comes to stealing things and the roleplaying factor, the person stealing should at least think out of character also besides thinking in character.



Blasphemy


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## Tarangil (Nov 10, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> Blasphemy




 

And by out of character...think if there is any tention between players?

otherwise you're right.

Blaspehempy!!


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## swrushing (Nov 10, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?




nothing official as a metagame rule but since in my game "the right to play" doesn't exist and if your character gets booted out or killed that can mean you, the player, are out until next campaign... people tend to not rely on the "I am a PC" safety net and behave as if "even my actions have conequences."

that said, anyone can steal from the companions... rogue or no. The biggest crook in this regard was a nice gal who was the party face and an herbalist who kept arranging to be the one negotiating the jobs for the group. She kept getting more pay for the group from the employer than she told the other players, making easily three shares for herself, more or less, on each job. Most of them IIRC never caught on. The one that did confronted her and she offered to up his shares... which defused his objection real quick.


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## Hammerhead (Nov 10, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> If the party did all the hard work to get you the ingredients and equipment you use in brewing, then yes, they should expect some of the profit.  If they hauled your hops over the mountains and across the deserts, they'll expect to be paid, and reasonably so.  Similarly, if they killed the ogre, and that meant you could run a scam, they'll expect a cut...




That analogy doesn't really work. Your example involves the PCs doing a large amount of work to help the schemer. Mine involves the schemer taking advantage of something the rest of the party had already done, doing the work of finding an enemy of the slain ogre mage and negotiating a reward.


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## gizmo33 (Nov 10, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?




The whole game IMO is a "meta game" agreement, and IMO PCs that steal from other PCs are taking advantage of a meta game element to do what they do.

The litmus test of whether or not any kind of PC to PC interaction (stealing, etc.) is reasonable is "how would this have been handled if one of the characters was an NPC".  Most likely, most PC thieves would never have been invited to join to party to begin with.  

IME, the vast majority of "PC thief steals from another PC" situations occur because a player is taking advantage of a "meta game" logic that allows everyone to play the game and cooperate.  IMO the meta game logic that allows DnD to even be playable directly contradicts the conditions you would want to have for a fair PvP type game.  

People make allowances (eg. suspicions are put aside or glossed over) for other people's characters so that the group can travel together and face challenges posed by the DM.  A player that suddenly invokes some sort of "realism" argument to justify anti-Party type actions IMO is conveniently forgetting this basic fact.  Plus, IME a Player thief is often using "out of game" logic about another players habits or actions in order to do what they do.


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## Prism (Nov 10, 2005)

In our underdark campaign one of the players has an imp character who generally steals anything he can get his hands on and either sells it for personal gain or 'loans' it back to the player for some untold sort of future interest payment . Obviously, we don't think of it as a loan as such but the imp seems to. So in this enviroment, we adventure with an imp so what do you expect

Generally we allow it in our group but anyone caught would expect to have their character booted from the group and may be rolling up a new one


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## diaglo (Nov 10, 2005)

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> The whole game IMO is a "meta game" agreement, and IMO PCs that steal from other PCs are taking advantage of a meta game element to do what they do.
> 
> The litmus test of whether or not any kind of PC to PC interaction (stealing, etc.) is reasonable is "how would this have been handled if one of the characters was an NPC".  Most likely, most PC thieves would never have been invited to join to party to begin with.




if a thief is not needed why do they have the class? why do adventuring parties ask them to join the group?



> People make allowances (eg. suspicions are put aside or glossed over) for other people's characters so that the group can travel together and face challenges posed by the DM.  A player that suddenly invokes some sort of "realism" argument to justify anti-Party type actions IMO is conveniently forgetting this basic fact.  Plus, IME a Player thief is often using "out of game" logic about another players habits or actions in order to do what they do.





the thief is just as likely to observe his mark. and to know where he places things, how he treats others, and so on during out of time activity.

do you tell the players what their characters eat, how long they sleep, when they go to the bathroom?


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## werk (Nov 10, 2005)

This is nicely wrapped up in my House Rule #1: Players may not roll dice against other Players.  It covers a lot more problems than theft.

Obviously this is out the window if the character is dominated or NPC'd in any way.

I've seen a disgusting amount of lost time, and gaming groups, to this sort of infighting, and I won't have it in games I run.  If you are not a team player...the adventure calls for a team, it's not solo, so roll a new character or change your head.


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## kigmatzomat (Nov 10, 2005)

IMC the rogue occassionally grabs things _first_ and doesn't mention them until much, much later.  It's not so much that he's trying to hide stuff from the party as he is focused on making sure they get the item.  Once has _this_ item he's looking at how to grab _that_ item and isn't so concerned about mentioning what he's picked up.  

He's been pretty good about adding his unmentioned acquisitions to the pile when it comes time to appraise & _identify_ stuff.  Of course, that could be b/c one gem he acquired without mentioning for a long period of time happened to be a _soulgem_ with an angry spirit that tried to kill the party.  In this case, the rogue player didn't even remember what he'd grabbed from the wizard's table beyond "shiny things" so it wasn't an intentional omission.  

The party figures if the rogue wants to carry some of the loot for a while, it's okay.  Plus they have an "audit" policy; anytime the rogue is unconscious the rest of the party will check his pockets & bags before waking him up.  If he's been packing anything _too_ nifty without mentioning it, the rest of the party will give him grief.


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## lukelightning (Nov 10, 2005)

There is no thief class in 3.5. They are rogues. A thief is a criminal.  Most adventurers don't go around saying "hey, we're looking for shoplifters and muggers to be our friends."



			
				diaglo said:
			
		

> if a thief is not needed why do they have the class? why do adventuring parties ask them to join the group?


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## diaglo (Nov 10, 2005)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> There is no thief class in 3.5. They are rogues. A thief is a criminal.  Most adventurers don't go around saying "hey, we're looking for shoplifters and muggers to be our friends."





there was no thief class in OD&D until Supplement I Greyhawk (1975)

i agree there shouldn't be one. mostly cuz of what is mentioned in this thread.

why bring a class into a game if its purpose is to ruin the group trust. much like the paladin, ranger, monk, and all the other classes not meant for a varied group.


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## Blackthorne (Nov 10, 2005)

If a player thinks that his rogue HAS to be a thief and his thief HAS to be a raving kleptomaniac, then...well, it´s his character, not mine.


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## gizmo33 (Nov 10, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> if a thief is not needed why do they have the class? why do adventuring parties ask them to join the group?




I've NEVER seen PCs invite an NPC thief to join the group.  In fact, when NPC thieves encounter a group, they tend not to advertise their professions.  For example, the thief in G1.



			
				diaglo said:
			
		

> the thief is just as likely to observe his mark. and to know where he places things, how he treats others, and so on during out of time activity.
> 
> do you tell the players what their characters eat, how long they sleep, when they go to the bathroom?




Same goes for the non-thief characters though.  Observing people's behavior is not restricted to just thieves, and the thief could draw attention to himself by "observing his mark".  None of this is being dealt with "in-game" though, and a PC thief intent on stealing from the party never IME roleplays his activities to the extent that he's saying "you seem to notice that every time you're sitting down to eat dinner, my thief is watching your character."  The bottom line IMO is that PC thief vs. PC actions are skewed when compared to the equivalent situation between PC and NPC.  IME, players who get their thief characters to steal from the party selectively apply those parts of "game vs. meta game" issues that benefits them.


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## diaglo (Nov 10, 2005)

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> I've NEVER seen PCs invite an NPC thief to join the group.  In fact, when NPC thieves encounter a group, they tend not to advertise their professions.  For example, the thief in G1.
> 
> 
> 
> Same goes for the non-thief characters though.  Observing people's behavior is not restricted to just thieves, and the thief could draw attention to himself by "observing his mark".  None of this is being dealt with "in-game" though, and a PC thief intent on stealing from the party never IME roleplays his activities to the extent that he's saying "you seem to notice that every time you're sitting down to eat dinner, my thief is watching your character."  The bottom line IMO is that PC thief vs. PC actions are skewed when compared to the equivalent situation between PC and NPC.  IME, players who get their thief characters to steal from the party selectively apply those parts of "game vs. meta game" issues that benefits them.



for the 6 hours we meet. i am my character. it helps me separate OoC knowledge. thus even though i (the player) know strategy and risk for tactics that could help the party i leave it forgotten b/c my character doesn't.

and yes. i stare at the other players and creep them out.

i roleplay my Cha 8.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Nov 10, 2005)

I had a character who had a couple of levels of Rogue without the knowledge of the rest of the party (some of the players knew, but none of the characters did).  The character usually would not steal from the party as he understood that these people helped to keep him alive and if he lost their trust, he might well end up dead.  On a couple of occasions he did steal items that he needed, but figured they would not willingly give to him, from party members.  After he did, he would find a way to either put it back when he was done with it, or give it back with a story, "Hey, looks like this fell out of your pack."

I played in one group where a player had a very Kender-like character.  Didn't steal from us (as far as I know), but regularly lifted items from stores, homes etc.  It fit his character perfectly, but one player had some real life issues with thieves and had some problems separating reality from game.  He would constantly meta-game to prevent the light-fingered PC from stealing, and would actually get mad at the player for attempting to steal from NPCs.  It got so bad we dissolved the group and reformed it a few months later without him.


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## Nail (Nov 10, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> and yes. i stare at the other players and creep them out.
> 
> i roleplay my Cha 8.





Sounds great.

I'd rather not play in such a group.  Stealing from fellow PCs is just a big downer in my book.  YMMV.


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## Rykion (Nov 10, 2005)

Stealing from the party is fine, but the player must accept any consequences their player faces if caught.  The thief might find themself not getting healed or helped in combat.


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## diaglo (Nov 10, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> Stealing from the party is fine, but the player must accept any consequences their player faces if caught.  The thief might find themself not getting healed or helped in combat.




i'm fine with that as long as in character there is a reason.

what i'm not cool with and i will get my revenge soon. is another player using OoC knowledge to punish my character.

which is what has happened.

i have been waiting over a year now to get Power Attack so that i can CdG the offending PC.


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## Rykion (Nov 10, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i'm fine with that as long as in character there is a reason.
> 
> what i'm not cool with and i will get my revenge soon. is another player using OoC knowledge to punish my character.




I agree.  I meant to say "Stealing from the party is fine, but the player must accept any consequences their character faces if caught."  I accidently put player both time.    Using OoC knowledge in game is never cool.


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## Victim (Nov 10, 2005)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> In the game that I ran, several PCs and 1 NPC formed a subgroup within the party to sell off all the evil loot the party found...unholy weapons, poison, and other icky items all found their way to the black markets, with the party's Paladin none the wiser. He eventually seemed to catch on that all the Unholy Weapons were being sold, often back to some of the villainous groups the party just killed (through a series of intermediaries, of course). As such, he began destroying all the "evil" stuff the party found, including books about necromancy and the like. This caused some nice party tension




Actually, it's more like the other way around.  The paladin was going to destroy the evil loot in that case too, but the value was high enough that some of the characters didn't want to see that much treasure go to waste.  Later on, he just started destroying the "evil" (or evil looking - he burned any book on necromancy) stuff right away.  But I believe we've already had the debate on selling/destroying evil stuff.

As a general rule, stealing from your party is pretty stupid.


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## spectre72 (Nov 10, 2005)

We deal with characters stealing from other players in the same way we deal with players who betray the rest of the party.

There will be a reckoning when we find out, and it may be as simple as expulsion from the party or as drastic as death of a character.

So if you can get away with it fine, but you better be carefull.

Scott


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## Chiaroscuro23 (Nov 10, 2005)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> Realism?  What would you do "realistically" if a coworker stole from you? Kick the bastard out, that's what you'd do. And if you were Zog the Archmage of Energy, you'd probably incinerate him as well.
> 
> You see, there is a social contract between players:  You don't abuse meta-game forces that keep our characters together (I mean meta-game in the neutral, descriptive sense).  Because you and some friends are gaming together and all have characters, the characters are lumped into a party, even though realistically Sir Otto Von Ratzenbanger the Highborn would probably have nothing to do with grubby Roguely MacStealingstuff.  We, as D&D gamers, ignore a fair amount of "realism" for the sake of making the game work.
> 
> But stealing/harming other PCs takes betrays that system and takes advantage of it, to the detriment of the game.  If you feel your character should be free to steal from the others, then the others should be free to say "we don't want your character in the party.  Roll up a new one."



 Precisely. It's a social contract issue, and I am strongly on the side of teamwork and agreement. The game's balanced for a certain amount of wealth, and you're not to hoard it for your PC. Divvying up treasure can be hard without stealing. It's not okay on an OOC level, so no IC justification can legitimize it.

-C.


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## was (Nov 10, 2005)

We've mutually agreed that any pc that steals from the group gets killed in a very slow fashion.


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## ThirdWizard (Nov 10, 2005)

werk said:
			
		

> This is nicely wrapped up in my House Rule #1: Players may not roll dice against other Players.  It covers a lot more problems than theft.




What if the theft involves no dice rolling? Do you make sure the players understand that HR1 covers more than actually rolling dice?


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## MonsterMash (Nov 10, 2005)

I don't necessarily prevent it as a DM, but as a player if my character discovers another character has been stealing from them that other player might be going through character creation real soon.


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## Kahuna Burger (Nov 10, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> What if the theft involves no dice rolling? Do you make sure the players understand that HR1 covers more than actually rolling dice?



Can you give an example? I can't see any method that wouldn't involve at the least a bluff check.

Put another way, if there was a way to steal with no risk of failure (the only way you wouldn't need dice) shouldn't the thief be rich and retired from using it on npcs?


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## ThirdWizard (Nov 10, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> Can you give an example? I can't see any method that wouldn't involve at the least a bluff check.




PCs arn't technically bluffable. But, for the sake of argument, say the PC thief in question was left guarding the horses while the others went out to investigate some issue and pocketed a few gold out of another PC's bag that would never be noticed.


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## genshou (Nov 18, 2005)

My current game is Forgotten Realms, and adventurers are something else entirely compared to previous campaigns.  In those, starting adventurers had to belong to a guild which determined all the rules for distribution of wealth, what constituted stealing or failing to distribute party wealth.  For a group of PCs to be accepted as a licensed adventuring party outside of a guild, they had to receive an adventuring license from a city government, as well as writing up a formal code of behavior and contract, to be stored in the kingdom's archives.  If a PC had attempted to steal from another PC, the contract would have been invoked both IC and OOC.  Writing out a contract kept a lot of otherwise disparate bands together in my games.


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## diaglo (Nov 19, 2005)

genshou said:
			
		

> My current game is Forgotten Realms, and adventurers are something else entirely compared to previous campaigns.  In those, starting adventurers had to belong to a guild which determined all the rules for distribution of wealth, what constituted stealing or failing to distribute party wealth.  For a group of PCs to be accepted as a licensed adventuring party outside of a guild, they had to receive an adventuring license from a city government, as well as writing up a formal code of behavior and contract, to be stored in the kingdom's archives.  If a PC had attempted to steal from another PC, the contract would have been invoked both IC and OOC.  Writing out a contract kept a lot of otherwise disparate bands together in my games.




Forgotten Realms still have adventuring charters. Mostly b/c there are very few places that haven't been explored. 

In the campaign (story hour in my sig) i'm playing we have a charter in Cormyr. The Stormslayers.

The crown or other nobles can hire you.  Also it makes it easier for bards to recognize the party members when they want to write odes about your derringdo


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## Psychic Warrior (Nov 19, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?




Meta game?  No, I don't 'meta game' an agreement that the party members don't steal from each other.  I role play it.


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## Aus_Snow (Nov 19, 2005)

JoeGKushner: "realism enforcement"?. . . wow, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one.

Um, do you mean that the norm is for players and GMs _not to be concerned with realism in the slightest_, albeit in fantasy/sci-fi/other strange contexts?

If so, I guess that is one way in which I and the people I roleplay with are not er. . . 'normal'.

If a character has any tendency toward dishonesty, covetousness, moral ambivalence, dishonour, even kleptomania for that matter, it will no doubt come out in the ways it will.

There are no 'metagame agreements' about anything, except topics that might be offensive - even if it's just to one participant - and in fact, there's really no 'metagame', I guess.

So, in short, if stealing happens, it happens, and the consequences follow from there, just as they, well. . . would. I've only been in sessions where it has happened a couple of times, mind you. Different consequences each time.


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## Falkus (Nov 19, 2005)

Stealing from the other players is on the same level as player killing, and therefore, doesn't happen in any campaign I run or play in.


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## genshou (Nov 23, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> Forgotten Realms still have adventuring charters. Mostly b/c there are very few places that haven't been explored.
> 
> In the campaign (story hour in my sig) i'm playing we have a charter in Cormyr. The Stormslayers.
> 
> The crown or other nobles can hire you.  Also it makes it easier for bards to recognize the party members when they want to write odes about your derringdo



Sure there are adventuring charters, but there are places in the Realms where they are not needed, and probably plenty of freelance parties that don't have one.  The party in my Story Hour (though I'm not caught up to the point where said party actually forms) is like this.  When it comes to adventuring in Cormyr, the PC is a Paladin and a noble to boot, so it's not too much of a problem to work around the lack of a formal adventuring charter.


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## Li Shenron (Nov 23, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?




I'm glad it never happened to us. If it does when I am the DM, I would definitely rule out that the following are forbidden:

- attacking another party member
- stealing from another party member
- sexually harassing another party member

unless the other party member has given his/her permission.

I think those situations require serious maturity and RP experience not to harm the game. Frankly, I doubt I've seen anyone who could handle them easily. I'd just remind the players that the most realistic thing is that such a character would definitely need to retire from the group. (The attack situation is the worst, since it may result in someone else having to "retire" as well, without having caused the problem)

And in any case, it doesn't matter to me if the PC are evil. If the players want to play evil characters, it's still their responsibility not to endanger the party, and they have all the rest of the world for them to harm freely, in the most hideous ways.


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## Simon155 (Sep 12, 2013)

So having read this thread, is it fair to say that:
 1) A thief using his character class as an excuse to steal any significant amount of loot from the party is just a douchbag?
2) Small thefts ie picking a gold from a pocket to buy a round of drinks is funny and ok.
3) It's down to the DM to control is. If the DM isn't handling it, you have a substandard DM?


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## Dioltach (Sep 12, 2013)

Wow, thread necromancy!
About your third point: I don't think it's down to the DM to control. Inter-PC relationships should be resolved between the players, unless they expressly ask the DM to step in. (That said, a player whose character steals from other party members will most likely stop that behaviour if the DM gives him or her opportunities to use those skills constructively.)


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## Crusadius (Sep 12, 2013)

Dioltach said:


> Wow, thread necromancy!
> About your third point: I don't think it's down to the DM to control. Inter-PC relationships should be resolved between the players, unless they expressly ask the DM to step in. (That said, a player whose character steals from other party members will most likely stop that behaviour if the DM gives him or her opportunities to use those skills constructively.)




Kinda like a warrior stops killing other party members if and when the DM offers opportunities to use those skills constructively.


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