# D&D Still Satanic? "So my mom threw away all my D&D books..."



## Katana_Geldar (May 12, 2011)

_I'd bought both Heroes of Shadow and Paizo's Inner Sea Guide and had both of them on my desk (well I was flipping through the ISG) and my mom came in and asked how my day went. I told her it went great I finally got the two books I'd been waiting for. _

_So she starts flipping through my Heroes of Shadow and suddenly sees stuff like Soul Sacrifice and Shadow Sponsorship and things like that in big scary letters and she just freaks out. She starts yelling at me about how D&D is satanic and that I've been lying to her all along about it. _

_She took all of my d&d books and put them in a cardboard box out front for anyone to take =( It was gone this morning. That was over a 1000 dollars gone. I know WotC has no interest in turning our souls over to Satan (afterall they wouldn't see any profit in it, so why bother?) but couldn't they have hidden the darker themes of the book deeper inside it or something? I'm sorry. I know it's not WotC's fault. I'm just mad and looking for a target. _

I really feel for this guy

...

I thought this sort of thing died out in the 80's.


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## HeavensThunderHammer (May 12, 2011)

Further in that thread, he mentions luckily, that his friend grabbed all of the books for him.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 12, 2011)

As long as there are religious conservatives who don't want to listen to counter-assertions, this will continue for RPGs, as well as other forms of entertainment like certain novels (including classics of literature) and music (especially "fringe" genres like metal).

Not dissing religion per se- I'm a practicing Catholic, after all- but that's generally where this _particular _conflict arises- other cultural/ethical/moral/faith positions have their own unique bugbears about which they will not hear dissent.  IOW, its not religion but that whole "unwilling to listen" thing that is the issue.  I had my own "battle" with my parents (and some other relatives and mentors) over RPGs and metal back in the original "Satanic Panic" of the 80s and 90s.  However, most- but not all- were willing to listen to what I had to say.

That, plus the fact that I was a PRACTICING Catholic got me past all that without loss of game or albums.  I even established a gaming club at my Catholic private HS.  No Monks pitched a fit, nor struck wrists with rulers over it.


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## Dykstrav (May 12, 2011)

Katana_Geldar said:


> I thought this sort of thing died out in the 80's.




Nope. My father had a baptist minister counsel me and do a prayer session over the eternal fate of my soul in the mid-nineties (and also threw out all of my 1E and 2E material). He went to his grave believing that his church wouldn't grant him a deacon position because I had played the game. A radio show called _Adventures in Odyssey_ still broadcasts an episode designed to "warn" children and their parents about fantasy role-playing games--I heard this episode as late as last year... Whit's End - Castles & Cauldrons, I

You can't really reason with people about things like this. They've already decided what they believe and will selectively ignore any fact that doesn't support it. Since ENWorld has a direct policy against discussing religion, I'll leave it at that. Suffice to say that I'm an active Christian myself and things like this, unfortunately, don't surprise me.

I know that it's not a popular stance, but I also believe that a parent has every right in the world to decide what their children can and cannot be involved in while that child is living with them. I spent five years rebuilding my 1E and 2E library after leaving my parent's house... It certainly sucks, but at least there's eBay and other online merchants to help with that once the OP gets out on their own and can play all the RPGs they want.


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## billd91 (May 12, 2011)

Satanic as it ever was... which is not particularly Satanic, admittedly.

Where is this guy posting from? I ask because (aside from the dollar amount) most of the testimonials I've seen about this lately have been in Australia. I wonder if there's been a localized religious backlash against D&D there that isn't as fresh in other parts of the world.


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## Katana_Geldar (May 12, 2011)

He's posting from the US or Canada undoubtedly as he uses the word "Mom".


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

Dykstrav said:


> I know that it's not a popular stance, but I also believe that a parent has every right in the world to decide what their children can and cannot be involved in while that child is living with them.




I agree. But I also agree that a child has every right, in turn, to lie to their parents and disobey them.


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## Dykstrav (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> I agree. But I also agree that a child has every right, in turn, to lie to their parents and disobey them.




I don't know if it's necessarily a "right" to lie, _per se_, but I'd certainly expect it. It's a perfectly reasonable response under the circumstances. I know that my own D&D games didn't miss a session because of what my father did. I never directly lied to him about it... He never brought it up again. If he'd asked me, I wouldn't have lie about it. I think he knew but went into denial after that. I don't see as I have anything to lie about--I'm not doing anything wrong, so if I lied about it, that'd reinforce the idea that it is something to be ashamed of. Hell with that. I just stopped doing it in his house and that was it.

For what it's worth, I wasn't allowed to date whatsoever or attend parties or any type of gathering without his direct supervision. I managed to get around entirely under the radar.  I didn't ever really lie, I just learned to be exceedingly subtle and have a poker face. I never gave him a reason to think I was up to something.


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## Aberzanzorax (May 12, 2011)

Whatever.

Harry Potter is WAAAY more satanic than D&D.


http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter.htm



BAN HARRY POTTER!





(Point being, that people who react before thinking often have ill thought reactions...go figure.)


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

Dykstrav said:


> I don't know if it's necessarily a "right" to lie, _per se_, but I'd certainly expect it. It's a perfectly reasonable response under the circumstances.




Certainly, if a parent is incapable of seeing to their child's well-being, that child, if they have the ability, must see to their own.


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## IronWolf (May 12, 2011)

billd91 said:


> Satanic as it ever was... which is not particularly Satanic, admittedly.




This.  People have their misconceptions of course.  And these seemed to get more attention in the 80's, but certainly not satanic.  People like to blame things they don't fully understand.

I know back in the 80's the Sunday school class would question my gaming, but they also questioned the heavy metal music I listened to as well.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

Aberzanzorax said:


> Whatever.
> 
> Harry Potter is WAAAY more satanic than D&D.




But Harry Potter has nothing on...

... the [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Turmoil-Toy-Box-Phil-Phillips/dp/0914984047/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305165123&sr=1-1"]CARE BEARS[/ame]!!!


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## Aberzanzorax (May 12, 2011)

Yes the Care Bears, Harry Potter, and D&D are all leading us to armageddon...which as D&D has taught me will lead to a snake eating it's own tail and then rainbow explosions!


FOR RAINBOWS!!!! AND FOR SATAN!


care bear STARE!


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## Relique du Madde (May 12, 2011)

Just imagine what they would have thought if you were playing Al Quadim.   You know, one thing I never got is why the ultra religious never thought about opening up the book and reading it (under clergical guidence is need be) before deciding if it was soul damning or not.

On the same token I'm amazed no one is complaining about the soul corrupting experience known as Farmville. After all if something could be stated as being tied to the demonic oppression it has to be a game that causes you to play it for five minutes at a time every several hour and then spend real money on things you can never own physically.


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## Theo R Cwithin (May 12, 2011)

Katana_Geldar said:


> I thought this sort of thing died out in the 80's.



Nope.  At least in some small towns out here in west Texas anti-D&D sentiment is alive and well, as much for fear of satanism, as for the un-macho nerdiness of it.  

And last month, the Taylor, Texas school board tried to ban the D&D club, though that was for promoting violence rather than satanism-- and it sounds like the board is being reasonable about it so far.  (Annoyingly, the high school newspaper article that first reported the issue seems to have been scrubbed! ) 

So yeah, there's a lot of weird latent fear out there.  Some places have a ways to go before rpg'ing is accepted.

(And to those asking, the kid in the OP over on rpg.net is in Canada.)


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## RainOfSteel (May 12, 2011)

Katana_Geldar said:


> I thought this sort of thing died out in the 80's.



Every so often, the now 20+ year old massive debunking of the absolute lies spread by Patricia Pulling, lies that continue to appear today at random, must be aired once again.

Patricia Pulling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Michael A. Stackpole: The Pulling Report

Game Hysteria and the Truth: Part One


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## Katana_Geldar (May 12, 2011)

I'm thinking of blogging about it, as I think the cure for this is a Christian-themed campaign setting.


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## Relique du Madde (May 12, 2011)

Katana_Geldar said:


> I'm thinking of blogging about it, as I think the cure for this is a Christian-themed campaign setting.




Already done by Green Ronin in the form of Testament*.


*Technically its a book that uses the biblical era as its setting..


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 12, 2011)

Not to mention how many spells and items in pre-3Ed D&D were directly inspired by Biblical, Christian or other RW religious lore- Sticks to Snakes, anyone?  Horn of Blasting?  Paladins?


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## Diamond Cross (May 12, 2011)

When Ragtime music (such artists like Scott Joplin) first began in the 1880s, Christians complained about it being Satanic. The reason why though is because the music was dominated by African American composers.

Whenever anything new comes along that doesn't have any benefit or they just don't like, Christians will always label it as Satanic because they just can't garner any sympathy if they say they just don't like it. If they say the just don't it, they'll be seen as very selfish, so calling it Satanic places the burden of proof on the people who like and create the works.

In other words, it's all a bunch of .


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## Relique du Madde (May 12, 2011)

Its not just Christians, its various sects of the big three monotheistic religions.


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## aurance (May 12, 2011)

What?? There's no Satan in D&D? Well poop, how am I supposed to get in on some eternal damnation now??


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 12, 2011)

To be fair, _every_ group has its code words for things it doesn't like, rationally based or not.

Also, to be fair, the Christians who labeled ragtime as "Satanic" were more...racist...than others.  LOTS of Christians liked it.  Like the artist Scott Joplin, who was Christian.  Roman Catholic, as a matter of fact.  (He got started playing at Church gatherings.)


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## Tanstaafl_au (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> I agree. But I also agree that a child has every right, in turn, to lie to their parents and disobey them.




I'd say they have the ability (and some parental behaviour encourages it) but not the right.

I had to play marvel super heroes, and villains and vigilantes at high school, 'cause D&D was too contraversially 'bad'


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## jdrakeh (May 12, 2011)

All hail Satan!


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## falcarrion (May 12, 2011)

Its only a matter of time before we see pics of Sadam playing dnd.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

Tanstaafl_au said:


> I'd say they have the ability (and some parental behaviour encourages it) but not the right.




I challenge you to describe how someone who has the ability, and the ethical justification for an action, dose not have the right. If the parents' justification is based on the child's well-being, then that justification fades when an action is counter to a child's well-being. And a teenager does have the ability to recognize that some things may be counter to their well-being. If, on the other hand, the justification is based on the parent's preferences, that is not a right, only a preference. Parents do not have a right to enforce what is merely a preference, any more than any human being can enforce their preferences on any other human being.


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## howandwhy99 (May 12, 2011)

Pawsplay, for the most part I agree with you. What I think the other poster is saying is a right is a social convention and their conception of ethical right and wrong is different than yours in terms of children's relationship to their parents. 

When you talk about how parent's subjective preferences do not supersede a child's rights, but then they can and should act on behalf of the child's well-being, I have to ask, "how do you know the difference?"  

For the sake of discussion, I imagine the parents would say they are acting on behalf of the child's well-being. That this action is, from their perspective, protecting the child from what they are too young to judge for themselves.

Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate here. No, I don't think D&D is satanic or that the parent made a wise choice.


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## Jan van Leyden (May 12, 2011)

I can't help but notice a fishy smell to this report.

The guy's supposedly 17 years old and lives in Canada. He joined RPG.net some two years ago and has written several hundred posts on that board. There were other RPG books lying around and he was very open to mention his new books.

So with 17 years of experience with his mother and two years of experience as a roleplayer living in this house his mother flips out without any warning signs?

Not that I wouldn't expect strange behaviour from religious fundamentalists, but this I find really hard to believe.


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## Argyle King (May 12, 2011)

The following shouldn't be taken 100% seriously, but I think it would be interesting to see how it played out if somebody actually did this...



Instead of fighting against it, I say the kid should wholeheartedly embrace it.  Go balls to the wall with the Bible.  

Mom wants to go shopping on Sunday?  "Sorry mom, God says that's the day of rest.  Why are you asking me to violate the sabbath?"

"I found some toys in one of your drawers mom.  Masterbation is a sin, so, for your own good, I had to give them away.  Just to be sure you soul was safe, I also took 10% of the money in your wallet and tithed it to the church."

"I think dad should consider a second wife; most of the great men in the Old Testament had multiple wives."

"Mom, I think I might have the drop out of school.  They're trying to brainwash me into believing the world wasn't created in 7 days."


(For the record, yes, I would consider myself Christian.)


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 12, 2011)

~ deleted for overstepping the 'no religion' line. ~


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## ForeverSlayer (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> I challenge you to describe how someone who has the ability, and the ethical justification for an action, dose not have the right. If the parents' justification is based on the child's well-being, then that justification fades when an action is counter to a child's well-being. And a teenager does have the ability to recognize that some things may be counter to their well-being. If, on the other hand, the justification is based on the parent's preferences, that is not a right, only a preference. Parents do not have a right to enforce what is merely a preference, any more than any human being can enforce their preferences on any other human being.




From the things that you post I would probably bet my life on it and say that you aren't a parent.  Let me give you a little advice here.  As long as a child lives under their parents roof then what ever that parent says goes, period.  Some kids believe booze, drugs and sex are whats best for them and clearly it isn't.  Also, we don't know the whole story from this kid.  I have a friend who has to stay away from fantasy type games because he begins to believe the stuff is real and goes off the deep end.  

This kids mom has every right to take away his books and do with them what ever she wishes.  Is it right to handle the situation in that way? No it's not, there are better ways this could have been handled, but if she doesn't want those books in her house and if she doesn't want her son to play D&D then he has to obey or suffer the consequences. I hate to tell you but kids do not always know whats best for themselves because most kids are ignorant to how the real world works.  

Doing anything in retaliation will only make the situation worse.  The mom may have acted a little over the top but this is a perfect opportunity for the kid to act civil in the matter and discuss this with his mom rationally.  If it doesn't work then he will just have to wait until he leaves his parent's home.


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## Stormonu (May 12, 2011)

Aberzanzorax said:


> Whatever.
> 
> Harry Potter is WAAAY more satanic than D&D.
> 
> ...




Obviously, this person who wrote the article has never heard of C.S. Lewis.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 12, 2011)

...and is probably not Catholic: JP2 came out and said HP books were not "satanic"...though, in contrast, a senior Exorcist _did._

That's just not one of those accusations our clergy throws around all the time.

(Although they REALLY weren't fond of Bloodhound Gang's "The Bad Touch"...)


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## Mark Chance (May 12, 2011)

howandwhy99 said:


> When you talk about how parent's subjective preferences do not supersede a child's rights, but then they can and should act on behalf of the child's well-being, I have to ask, "how do you know the difference?"




Like almost everyone else, it's a "subjective preference" if it's something I disagree with.


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## Dice4Hire (May 12, 2011)

aurance said:


> What?? There's no Satan in D&D? Well poop, how am I supposed to get in on some eternal damnation now??




You are currently 570 pos... r... steps closer to damnation. Keep up the good work!

I have occasionally heard about this anti-D&D stuff, but that was back in college. The Japanese are way too private and unconcerned about religion to go nuts, and bless them for it.


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## billd91 (May 12, 2011)

ForeverSlayer said:


> This kids mom has every right to take away his books and do with them what ever she wishes.  Is it right to handle the situation in that way? No it's not, there are better ways this could have been handled, but if she doesn't want those books in her house and if she doesn't want her son to play D&D then he has to obey or suffer the consequences. I hate to tell you but kids do not always know whats best for themselves because most kids are ignorant to how the real world works.




I'm a parent and I find this to be mostly BS.


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## Dykstrav (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> If the parents' justification is based on the child's well-being, then that justification fades when an action is counter to a child's well-being.




To me, it isn't so much about what's in the best interests of the child. It's about being someone's guest, which a child functionally is until they get out on their own. If I'm living under someone's roof, eating their food and otherwise using their resources, I'm going to respect their wishes about certain things. That's not about rights versus privileges, it's just basic respect for another person.

Which is why I kept playing after my own issues with this sort of thing--I was never directly told to stop playing the game. I was told to burn the D&D books and submit to counseling. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I felt that playing D&D elsewhere and just not volunteering information about my personal life satisfied the requirements set out for me.



			
				Jan van Leyden said:
			
		

> So with 17 years of experience with his mother and two years of  experience as a roleplayer living in this house his mother flips out  without any warning signs?




I'd been playing the game for four years and was fifteen when my father flipped out. No "warning signs." That's pretty much exactly what happened to me.



			
				Johnny3D3D said:
			
		

> Instead of fighting against it, I say the kid should wholeheartedly embrace it.  Go balls to the wall with the Bible.




For what it's worth, this is probably the best approach if you really want to mess with people like that. I'd probably invite the people I play D&D with to church, see how she likes it.


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## Raven Crowking (May 12, 2011)

Thank you all for reminding me how lucky I am that my parents, and my teachers, were not utter loons.  No....they did what any smart parents would do.  They said "Bring up your grades, or you can't play until you do!"


RC


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## Balesir (May 12, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> Just imagine what they would have thought if you were playing Al Quadim.   You know, one thing I never got is why the ultra religious never thought about opening up the book and reading it (under clergical guidence is need be) before deciding if it was soul damning or not.
> 
> On the same token I'm amazed no one is complaining about the soul corrupting experience known as Farmville. After all if something could be stated as being tied to the demonic oppression it has to be a game that causes you to play it for five minutes at a time every several hour and then spend real money on things you can never own physically.



Dragging this topic back towards an RPG discussion, slightly, I think the Paladin in our game has this one summed up nicely in his motto:

*"Thought Lets Doubt In!"*

(Not meaning to reply to this specific post, BTW, it was just an example of several  )


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## NewJeffCT (May 12, 2011)

Aberzanzorax said:


> Whatever.
> 
> Harry Potter is WAAAY more satanic than D&D.
> 
> ...




If anything, Harry Potter is very evocative of Christian mythology.  Of course, some may consider it blasphemous that Rowling uses Christian themes in books that feature magic, wizards, dementors, giants, dragons, etc.

(I won't list them out in case somebody hasn't read the books, as some of them are spoilers...)

'Harry Potter' Author J.K. Rowling Opens Up About Books' Christian Imagery - Music, Celebrity, Artist News | MTV

25 Essays on Christian Themes in Harry Potter


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## Mercurius (May 12, 2011)

Sounds like his mom killed him and took his stuff.


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## Stoat (May 12, 2011)

Jan van Leyden said:


> I can't help but notice a fishy smell to this report.
> 
> The guy's supposedly 17 years old and lives in Canada. He joined RPG.net some two years ago and has written several hundred posts on that board. There were other RPG books lying around and he was very open to mention his new books.
> 
> ...




I gotta agree.  I saw the OP on RPG.net yesterday, and it looked like a Troll/Hoax to me.  I can't say why, except that the tone is off.  The story felt too convenient.


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## NewJeffCT (May 12, 2011)

Stoat said:


> I gotta agree.  I saw the OP on RPG.net yesterday, and it looked like a Troll/Hoax to me.  I can't say why, except that the tone is off.  The story felt too convenient.




I didn't look at the OP, but somebody earlier in this thread had noted the same poster did have quite a few previous posts on RPG.net.  Also, you almost never get the whole story on the internets.

It could very well be a hoax, but it's an interesting issue to discuss if you give him the benefit of the doubt.


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## jimmifett (May 12, 2011)

Do keep in mind it's not the ultra religious or religious conservatives that are the problem.

The problem is the under educated masses that rely on others to do thier thinking and research for them and tell them what to think, so they have less to worry about. Any religion, sect, cult, or societal ideology is rife with abuse where the _individual_ does not take the responsibility of forming thier own opinions based on research or what they know to be true or beliefs they hold dear, and instead submitting thier opinions to the direction of someone else with a high Charisma score or the mob mentality (or combination thereof) even when it contradicts thier core knowledge and beliefs.


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## RedTonic (May 12, 2011)

I don't find the kid's report to be fishy at all. Speaking for myself and from memories of other young friends' experiences, sometimes your parent goes a little _odd_ for a while, usually the result of temporary religious fervor arising from something else, and then your previously tolerated hobbies become evil influences. Also, people lie. Parents are people. Hence, parents lie (at least sometimes). I also had young friends whose parents were afraid of D&D, but those families played videogame RPGs and platformers like Legend of Zelda. They also played MUDs based on Deku's build, which is fundamentally AD&D if I remember correctly (haven't played that in years). Sometimes those friends would get a little... weird... And swear off the MUD because your PCs could "cast spells" and "pray for miracles," and of course, this is blasphemous fiction. But they'd be back....! They'd also temporarily quit because there were evil PCs and NPCs in the game.

All this to say... People are strange, and you shouldn't be too surprised by their sudden changes in heart. At least one of those friends remains a devout Christian and has a D&D gaming group now. I've never been, since we live far apart now, but things change.

Meanwhile, my father has been playing since high school and his parents not only didn't care about him playing, but his group often played in their home and my grandmother really enjoys having them over for dinner.


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## Darrell (May 12, 2011)

jimmifett said:


> Do keep in mind it's not the ultra religious or religious conservatives that are the problem.




Yep.  I started playing using the old digest-sized OD&D booklets, and my (Southern Baptist) Mom and two of my brothers were some of my first players.  In fact, my Mom and Dad gave me the Moldvay/Cook 'B/X' boxed sets for Christmas, and Mom continued to play in my games until I went away to college.

The reason she stopped playing was really an issue of increased complexity; I got into 2e in college, and she tried sitting in on a few games, but keeping track of the increased amount of numbers made it no longer fun for her.  Not long ago (back around Christmas of 2009), I introduced her to _Microlite20_, and she was as enthusiastic about the game as she had been way back when.

Fundamentalist anti-D&D fervor isn't a religious thing.  It's an idiot thing.

Regards,
Darrell King


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

ForeverSlayer said:


> From the things that you post I would probably bet my life on it and say that you aren't a parent.




I have five children.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

howandwhy99 said:


> Pawsplay, for the most part I agree with you. What I think the other poster is saying is a right is a social convention and their conception of ethical right and wrong is different than yours in terms of children's relationship to their parents.
> 
> When you talk about how parent's subjective preferences do not supersede a child's rights, but then they can and should act on behalf of the child's well-being, I have to ask, "how do you know the difference?"
> 
> For the sake of discussion, I imagine the parents would say they are acting on behalf of the child's well-being. That this action is, from their perspective, protecting the child from what they are too young to judge for themselves.




Assuming they were acting from such a belief, that would justify their actions. Of course, since their belief is illogical and they are actually incorrect, that justifies a young person, living dependently on their parents, to take whatever practical course they need to in order to preserve their emotional life. So to answer your question, we cannot know the difference, and so it behooves parents to be cautious when making decisions against a child's stated wishes.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> Already done by Green Ronin in the form of Testament*.
> 
> 
> *Technically its a book that uses the biblical era as its setting..




It's a really slick book, by the way. I would totally play it.


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## Raven Crowking (May 12, 2011)

Darrell said:


> Fundamentalist anti-D&D fervor isn't a religious thing.  It's an idiot thing.




_*It can't be*_.  I'm _*not*_ an anti-D&D fundamentalist, but I *am* an Epic Level Idiot.



pawsplay said:


> I have five children.




I'm thinking ForeverSlayer probably wants to rethink that "bet my life" thing now.  Otherwise, he'll have to change his user name to ForeverSlain!


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## Fifth Element (May 12, 2011)

billd91 said:


> I'm a parent and I find this to be mostly BS.



I'm a parent as well, and I agree. The whole "my house, my rules" thing is a crummy way to treat your kids. It is in no way an absolute rule. When your kids are very young, obviously you need to provide a lot of parental override, but as they get older and wiser, they need to make their own decisions about certain things. Draconian parenting is something that belongs in the past. IMHO.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

Jan van Leyden said:


> I can't help but notice a fishy smell to this report.
> 
> The guy's supposedly 17 years old and lives in Canada. He joined RPG.net some two years ago and has written several hundred posts on that board. There were other RPG books lying around and he was very open to mention his new books.
> 
> ...




With my mom, it was the hostage scenario in TMNT and Other Strangeness. My BECMI D&D stuff was collateral damage.


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## Fifth Element (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> I have five children.



Good thing he said "probably", then. A well-timed qualifier.


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## NewJeffCT (May 12, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> Draconian parenting is something that belongs in the past. IMHO.




Not according to the Tiger Mom... but, that's another story.


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## ForeverSlayer (May 12, 2011)

billd91 said:


> I'm a parent and I find this to be mostly BS.




Then how about explain why you think this is BS.  Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true.  How about give an explanation?


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

Dykstrav said:


> To me, it isn't so much about what's in the best interests of the child. It's about being someone's guest, which a child functionally is until they get out on their own.




Children are not guests.

The relationship you are painting is completely backwards. When you have a child, by dint of creating them, you take responsibility for their well-being. Until such time as they can manage on their own, you owe them.

Children owe their parents zilch, nothing, nada. As the saying goes, they didn't ask to be born. They are not adults, and they did not incur their debts through any conscious act of their own. 

Should children respect their parents and obey them? Yes, of course they should. But respect is a two way street. Children owe their parents respect as fellow human beings, not as their owners. 

I offer you the words of the poet Kahlil Gibran:



> Your children are not your children.
> They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
> They come through you but not from you,
> And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
> ...


----------



## ForeverSlayer (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> I have five children.




I can't say whether that is true or not, but the way you post would lead me to believe this is a false statement.


----------



## ForeverSlayer (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> Children are not guests.
> 
> The relationship you are painting is completely backwards. When you have a child, by dint of creating them, you take responsibility for their well-being. Until such time as they can manage on their own, you owe them.
> 
> ...




It's posts like this that keep telling me you don't really know what parenting is all about.  You say that children owe their parents nothing when that is so not true.  You confuse the relationship between parents and their children as ownership of an item and that is not the case.  Legally your children do belong to you but you must still act with in the laws and morals of what ever culture you exist under.  Children owe their parents respect because they gave them a home to live in, food to eat, clothes on their back, and a safe environment to be in, not to mention all the extras that come with it.  

If you do have children then I would recommend you go and read a few parenting magazines.  The way you sound, you sound like a 17 year old teenager who don't really like their parents much because they didn't let you do what you wanted.  In short you sound like a rebellious teenager. 

I'm not taking hits at you I am just going by what I read from your posts and then you claim to have 5 children.  Hell I could tell you I have 15 and you wouldn't know the difference.

P.S: Nobody ever said being a parent was perfect, nor an easy job but we do the best we can with the knowledge that we have.  Children don't fully understand respect like an adult does, well like a normal adult does.  Seriously, if all a child has to worry about is his mom flipping out about D&D because she doesn't want anything to happen to her child then that child is in good shape.  Lot's of parents don't give a rat's arse what happens to their children and that is a sad situation.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

ForeverSlayer said:


> I can't say whether that is true or not, but the way you post would lead me to believe this is a false statement.




Oh, yeah? Well how do I know you're not a yeti?


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## Twowolves (May 12, 2011)

Tanstaafl_au said:


> I'd say they have the ability (and some parental behaviour encourages it) but not the right.
> 
> I had to play marvel super heroes, and villains and vigilantes at high school, 'cause D&D was too contraversially 'bad'





You too eh? We had a player who's parents forbid him from playing D&D on religious grounds, but had absolutely no problem if we replaced "orcs" with "bank robbers" and "thieves" with "superheroes". So we played MSH and V&V until he turned 18 and then told them he was an adult and he'd do as he damn well pleased.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

ForeverSlayer said:


> Children owe their parents respect because they gave them a home to live in, food to eat, clothes on their back, and a safe environment to be in, not to mention all the extras that come with it.




The first experience a child has as an independent being is being shoved and rotated through a very small opening, followed immediately by being cold and learning there is a difference between being in liquid and being _wet_. Are they supposed to feel happy about this?



> If you do have children then I would recommend you go and read a few parenting magazines.  The way you sound, you sound like a 17 year old teenager who don't really like their parents much because they didn't let you do what you wanted.  In short you sound like a rebellious teenager.




What if I told you I'm in my mid-thirties and have six graduate level credit hours in human development?

I must admit, I am becoming increasingly intrigued by the basis for your guesswork.


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## Fifth Element (May 12, 2011)

ForeverSlayer said:


> Children owe their parents respect because they gave them a home to live in, food to eat, clothes on their back, and a safe environment to be in, not to mention all the extras that come with it.



This is the BS part. Children only owe their parents respect if their parents respect them in turn. Are you saying that so long as I provide food and shelter my kids owe me respect, regardless of what else I do? Can I smack them around or degrade and insult them? I can justify that by saying it keeps them safe from the world. Is it an absolute that they must respect me?



ForeverSlayer said:


> If you do have children then I would recommend you go and read a few parenting magazines.



If you parent based on parenting magazines, then I recommend you stop. Each child should be parented in a unique way, based on the parents and the child and the interaction between the two, and magazines don't know your kids or mine, much less me or you. I don't treat my daughter in exactly the same way as I treat my son, because they're two different people (_very_ different in some ways), and I respect those differences.


----------



## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

Twowolves said:


> You too eh? We had a player who's parents forbid him from playing D&D on religious grounds, but had absolutely no problem if we replaced "orcs" with "bank robbers" and "thieves" with "superheroes". So we played MSH and V&V until he turned 18 and then told them he was an adult and he'd do as he damn well pleased.




When my mom raised objections about D&D, we switched to super heroes, too, as a ploy. But when my mom walked in and heard us discussing the first hostage killing in the TMNT module, that was it. 

Eventually, I saved up some money finishing furniture for my step-dad, which I was assured could be spent on anything I wanted. So I bought GURPS second edition. My mom was really excited when I got home to see what I bought, until I showed her. She didn't just look daggers, those were +1 flaming daggers. I just said, "You said I could spend it on anything I wanted," and that was that.


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## ForeverSlayer (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> The first experience a child has as an independent being is being shoved and rotated through a very small opening, followed immediately by being cold and learning there is a difference between being in liquid and being _wet_. Are they supposed to feel happy about this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you do then that's great, but your posts don't show me any evidence.  Also there is no amount of schooling that will make you into a better parent.  That comes with experience, not text books.  I know more about what goes on with my two children than any doctor or psychologist around because I see them every day and I know when something is wrong.  Sure I may not know more about the medical aspects but I know something on a much deeper level.


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## Fifth Element (May 12, 2011)

ForeverSlayer said:


> Also there is no amount of schooling that will make you into a better parent.  That comes with experience, not text books.  I know more about what goes on with my two children than any doctor or psychologist around because I see them every day and I know when something is wrong.  Sure I may not know more about the medical aspects but I know something on a much deeper level.



No kidding - and yet you recommend parenting magazines?


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## Fifth Element (May 12, 2011)

Hah. Wrong button. Good job me. Sorry pawsplay.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> If you parent based on parenting magazines, then I recommend you stop. Each child should be parented in a unique way, based on the parents and the child and the interaction between the two, and magazines don't know your kids or mine, much less me or you. I don't treat my daughter in exactly the same way as I treat my son, because they're two different people (_very_ different in some ways), and I respect those differences.




No kidding. I don't just feel like a parent, I feel like ten parents: one for each of my children, with and without my partner present. You have to be flexible, bold, humble, sensitive, dominant, kind, orderly, spontaneous, curious, focused...

And yeah, I would be wary of taking any sort of advice from a magazine. Many articles that are intended to be helpful come loaded with messages about self-esteem that I would consider poisonous. I see lots of articles like "How to Get Your Child Into Their Dream School," not so many that say, "Have you considered that at 17 years old, your child may not be emotionally prepared for a pre-med program?"


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## Raven Crowking (May 12, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> This is the BS part.




Dang.

Now I feel bad that I gave you flippant XP earlier.  I should have saved it for this post.


RC


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## Twowolves (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> When my mom raised objections about D&D, we switched to super heroes, too, as a ploy. But when my mom walked in and heard us discussing the first hostage killing in the TMNT module, that was it.




As I recall, when I played that scenario, we hit the grenade-toting bull with full auto fire, got a critical or something, and the GM ruled his grenades all went off. So much for "hostages"....

My mom wasn't wild about me playing D&D either, but took the attitude that if I was at home with my friends on a Friday night, I wasn't out drinking and  impregnating the masses or otherwise up to mischief. As long as I stayed out of trouble and continued to get all A's in school, what could she really complain about?


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## Fifth Element (May 12, 2011)

Raven Crowking said:


> Now I feel bad that I gave you flippant XP earlier.  I should have saved it for this post.



I'll take a rain check. I like flippant XP just as much as the real stuff!


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## Estlor (May 12, 2011)

I have two things to contribute to this thread.

First, the constructive contribution:

My wife doesn't associate D&D with Satan or anything like that, but she has expressed on multiple occasions that she wants my D&D books "put up" before our daughter is old enough to see them because, "They have scary pictures in them."  Other than the Century Worm in 3e's Fiend Folio, I can't think of much that's scarier than having the news on these days.

Second, the non-constructive contribution:

"Yeah, my mom took all my books because she saw HoS.  For some reason, she didn't mind the Demonomicon though."


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## Dykstrav (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> Children are not guests.
> 
> The relationship you are painting is completely backwards. When you have a child, by dint of creating them, you take responsibility for their well-being. Until such time as they can manage on their own, you owe them.
> 
> ...




Well no, strictly speaking, they're not guests. Only because they weren't specifically invited to enjoy their parent's hospitality. So call it a dependent if you want, but what it breaks down to is that a child is using the resources of someone else to meet their basic needs. To me, that carries a degree of obligation.

Do children owe their parents? I think they do. Certainly, the parent should expect that a child isn't going to financially compensate them for the resources incurred in meeting their basic needs. That's not reasonable. But I do think that a degree of basic respect for the parent and basic obedience to reasonable strictures upon their behavior is perfectly reasonable. We don't agree on that and that's okay. 

I'm not a parent, so I can't speak from experience there. I will say that I'd certainly have some sort of expectations for my children if I ever have any and leave it at that.


----------



## Raven Crowking (May 12, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> I'll take a rain check. I like flippant XP just as much as the real stuff!






Fair enough.  I'll try to remember it when I've XPed the next...what? 25 or 30 people?  What is the cut-off, anyway?

RC


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## RedTonic (May 12, 2011)

I don't think this is the topic for a debate on parenting philosophies or deciding who is/isn't a good parent _per se_. I like the original topic and where it was headed before we dove into "Honor thy father" versus "Do as thou wilt" or however you want to describe these divergent notions. I hope the children of all the parents on this board and in general grow up to be happy, healthy, and well-adjusted and do you guys proud, but knocking each other over the heads probably won't measurably contribute to that end.

No, I don't have any kids. I'm 25. The closest thing I currently have to that responsibility is a cat on par with a small toddler. I would totally let her play D&D if she'd stop trying to lay on top of my open DMG when I'm using it. I also played a lot of pretend with young children when I worked briefly in child care, and I firmly believe that D&D is pretend with all of the playground rules now "codified" into numbers. I find putting D&D in those terms to help at least allay some of the suspicions of those who think I am learning black magic and will find my soul being dragged into hell.

I do not think it's useful to that type of person to say "But it's 4th edition!" Doubtless they don't actually know that there have been different editions or that there's any significant different in terms of play between them, because in terms of "substance"--that is, a fantasy game with magic, demons, gods, etc., the game hasn't really changed (despite how individual game worlds are developed, polytheism, demonology, dualism, etc. are presented in the source texts, and there are faithful people who object to that stuff _on principle_ whether or not you can use the information in the books to actually summon demons or force angels to do your bidding). To them, I say don't play--but don't get in my way, either. However, in the eyes of the law (if not necessarily of my distant, beloved parents), I am an adult, and I can do what I want as long as it's not illegal, so I get to do that. Short of violating my personal rights or scheduling courses during game nights, no one can stop me, either.

Both of my parents played D&D, and my father got me into it. My grandmother always asks us if we "won" after game night (sadly, I haven't been able to play with my dad's group in about a year--being a few states apart does that). My maternal grandmother probably wouldn't have been so relaxed on the topic; the indicators don't point to it. Now, however, I'm an adult, and she's not really worried about anything I watch influencing my behavior towards irresponsibility or violence. She never really minded me playing videogames, but _Rugrats_ really bothered her when I was a kid watching Saturday morning cartoons.

Internal inconsistencies are part of what being human is about. Someone's parent may have no problem with their kid watching _Law & Order: Special Victims' Unit_ but really flip out when the same kid wants to watch a cartoon with stylized violence, let alone play a game where the kid simulates said violence (even without the sexual content of _SVU_).


----------



## Umbran (May 12, 2011)

ForeverSlayer said:


> If you do then that's great, but your posts don't show me any evidence.




Nor do they give YOU any real evidence to say he's lying. Not agreeing with your personal view does not qualify as evidence.  While he's been nice about it, questioning his veracity without good foundation is *rude*.  Please don't be rude.

Folks, this is the General RPG Discussion forum.  It is not the Parenting Techniques Forum.  If you want to discuss parenting, take it to the Media and Other Geek Stuff Fourm, and get this back to discussion of games, and gaming culture, please and thank you.  


*Edit*: In addition, the "don't comment on moderation in-thread" rule applies to XP comments as well.  Please don't use the XP comment system in this manner.  Thank you.


----------



## Fifth Element (May 12, 2011)

Estlor said:


> My wife doesn't associate D&D with Satan or anything like that, but she has expressed on multiple occasions that she wants my D&D books "put up" before our daughter is old enough to see them because, "They have scary pictures in them."



This is an illustration of how different kids can be. My daugher has always loved "scary pictures", ever since she was a toddler. She loved to flip through the Monstrous Manual (2E), her particular favourite was the medusa. She's just always had a really firm grasp on the difference between fantasy and reality, and such things have never bothered her. I can't say the same about my son, who I'd say has the more typical reactions to scary things.



Dykstrav said:


> But I do think that a degree of basic respect for the parent and basic obedience to reasonable strictures upon their behavior is perfectly reasonable. We don't agree on that and that's okay.



I don't think you'll get any disagreement with that. The assertion was that children must follow all of their parents rules simply by dint of being raised by said parents. If your strictures on their behaviour are reasonable, then there's no trouble. If it's "my house, my rules, deal with it" then not so much.


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## billd91 (May 12, 2011)

Twowolves said:


> My mom wasn't wild about me playing D&D either, but took the attitude that if I was at home with my friends on a Friday night, I wasn't out drinking and  impregnating the masses or otherwise up to mischief. As long as I stayed out of trouble and continued to get all A's in school, what could she really complain about?




I believe my parents were quite happy about that as well. I had an easier curfew than my older sister did, I don't doubt, because playing D&D meant I wasn't getting into trouble, I was just being nerdy. Plus, my mother reads a LOT, so a quasi-literary hobby was A-OK.


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## jaerdaph (May 12, 2011)

I still think his mom really just likes _Pathfinder _better....


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## nedjer (May 12, 2011)

Katana_Geldar said:


> I'm thinking of blogging about it, as I think the cure for this is a Christian-themed campaign setting.





The cure is to take it down every time it crops up. D&D has never claimed to involve the actual casting of spells, real mystical creatures or miraculous occurrences. The Bible is stuffed full of mystic beings, 'spellcasting' and Old testament brutality - all of which fundamentalists claim to be absolutely real. Pot kinda calling the kettle black there. However, arguing it in that way will not get a result with hardliners.

Those with these 'arguments' need to be asked why they aren't concentrating their time on serious, proven causes of suffering and obvious 'evil', e.g. war, famine, abuse and torture that's all around them. As by distracting attention from these serious issues they are complicit in the continuance of 'evil', i.e. while they're arguing about fiction they're letting millions go to hell in a handcart.

So, until the mom and pastor spend their time writing letters for Amnesty International, publicising the plight of Syrians, sending support to besieged towns in Libya . . . not to mention the whole of Africe, they are hand-in-hand with 'evil'. This kind of approach can tap into where their priorities lie and hoists them by their own petards. (Ouch!)

Please do blog about this. I've a list of about a dozen snappy challenges to these attitudes which I will be publishing when its crisp enough. Many more of us should blog and present sound cases for religious groups to focus on charity and compassion, over witchhunting and cheap scapegoating.


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## nedjer (May 12, 2011)

Why would you quote Umbran's post telling you to drop the subject in this thread/forum and then continue the discussion of that subject in this thread and forum?  You're not normally a problem poster, nedjer so I'm not thread banning you or anything.  But "drop it" means "drop it".


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## Diamond Cross (May 12, 2011)

If it's hard science then you can provide the proper scientific studies.


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## Fifth Element (May 12, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> If it's hard science then you can provide the proper scientific studies.



And if so (and it is so), I'd recomment moving it to the other forum as Umbran mentioned.


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## Twowolves (May 12, 2011)

Estlor said:


> My wife doesn't associate D&D with Satan or anything like that, but she has expressed on multiple occasions that she wants my D&D books "put up" before our daughter is old enough to see them because, "They have scary pictures in them."





My son since age two could identify many monsters from the Pathfinder Bestiary/3.5 MM, including what the chromatic dragons breathe and where they live. He's almost 4 and has been hooked on my old D&D cartoon DVDs for some time now.  In fact, he has an imaginary dragon friend who "lives in a cave, far far away. In Chattanooga." This dragon also helps him fight mosquitos. Don't ask.


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## David Howery (May 12, 2011)

I was a D&D player way back in the early 80's when the whole 'Satanic' thing started up.  Luckily, my parents aren't the religious type, so when they found out I was a D&D player, they didn't forbid it.  They did look at me sadly and sigh a lot, but they didn't forbid it...


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## WHW4 (May 12, 2011)

RE: the OP.

You can't reason with madness. Hopefully she will accept his hobbies one day, if not then she can continue to be ignorant. One more in the world won't make that big of a difference.


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## rgard (May 12, 2011)

falcarrion said:


> Its only a matter of time before we see pics of Sadam playing dnd.




With Satan as his DM.


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## nedjer (May 12, 2011)

Dear Rel

I just came back to copy and paste those notes I made earlier on the giant pinboard called the Net and you'd deleted what would have been a worthwhile post on my blog on an issue that's relevant to RPGs as a whole.

Had Umbran wished to question me on this I believe he would have assumed I meant no disrespect and accepted where my next post was going to take the topic. (I had to go RPG with my kid). As it is, my figurative Rapunzel didn't get to unravel all her hair).

Your edit is, therefore, technically correct but thoroughly unprincipled. Consequently, this is a matter of honour and I must cast down a gauntlet before you and say - Yield Sir! - or meet me in The Thread of Trial by Ordeal; where you shall lose your RPG life, but through your suffering not your honour


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## Diamond Cross (May 12, 2011)

It's a mud house! A mud house! A muuuuuuud hooooouse!

Er, wait a minute, wrong movie.


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## renau1g (May 12, 2011)

Twowolves said:


> My son since age two could identify many monsters from the Pathfinder Bestiary/3.5 MM, including what the chromatic dragons breathe and where they live. He's almost 4 and has been hooked on my old D&D cartoon DVDs for some time now.  In fact, he has an imaginary dragon friend who "lives in a cave, far far away. In Chattanooga." This dragon also helps him fight mosquitos. Don't ask.




My twins are age 3 now and their favourite book is the 3.5e MM1. We usually read it every night and they keep trying to take it to daycare to show and tell. I have to say it would scare all the other kids, which they think about and then agree with. They enjoyed the D&D live-action movie (ugh) and we watched the princess and the bride which they loved Inigo Montoya and of course Fezzik (oh...daddy! Lookit the giant). They also love playing with my D&D minis (anything sized large or huge they can play with). 

Funny thing is they get more scared of children's stories than D&D monsters or even LOTR (which thanks to their papa they were allowed to watch...). The only things they've ever been scared of were the witch (after we read them Hansel and Gretel.... stupid move) and of pumpkins (after Halloween last year... can't figure out why)


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## Relique du Madde (May 12, 2011)

renau1g said:


> My twins are age 3 now and their favourite book is the 3.5e MM1. We usually read it every night and they keep trying to take it to daycare to show and tell.




Do you only read the flavor text + description + examples or everything?  Cause if you read everything, that's pretty hard core. 

I mean seriously, if he can rattle off some a dragon's stats during the middle of a movie and give DnD tactics on how it should have been killed mid scene that's a huge win.


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## nedjer (May 12, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> If it's hard science then you can provide the proper scientific studies.




There's a short list of RPGs and learning research links HERE. Must expand and annotate it when I get a chance.


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## HeavensThunderHammer (May 12, 2011)

Katana_Geldar said:


> He's posting from the US or Canada undoubtedly as he uses the word "Mom".




Is it commonwealth parlance to use "Mum" instead when writing it out? He's posting from Canada, I believe the province of Saskatchewan.


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## Fifth Element (May 12, 2011)

HeavensThunderHammer said:


> Is it commonwealth parlance to use "Mum" instead when writing it out? He's posting from Canada, I believe the province of Saskatchewan.



I think "Mum" is fairly common in Canada. At least where I'm from.


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## Aeolius (May 12, 2011)

"Eye warship satin?"


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## Crazy Jerome (May 12, 2011)

I never got any flak in my mostly Southern Baptist family for D&D. The closest was a relative that thought C. S. Lewis was a little free with his imagery in Narnia, but her reaction was to engage me in discussion. I got a little flack at school, but that quickly blew over. We even used avowedly roleplaying techniques in Bible study. 

The first and only time I got flak was after a guest minister at an avowdly mainstream (Prebysterian, I think) church got all wacky. One of my friends who attended came away confused. It quickly became obvious talking to her that this guy needed a scapegoat that would not offend the congregation, because that would affect the collection. A real fundamentalist, serious minister in that church would have talked about divorce or spending time with your children or something like that. Not roleplaying games. Not far away political issues. About things possibly pertinent in daily life to the people sitting in the audience.

This is how you can tell when you hear nonsense about D&D supposedly from a religious perspective. (There are some serious objections to fantasy from some religious perspectives, but they will be more comprehensive and intelligble than D&D scapegoating. Those are way outside the scope of this forum.)

The only flak I ever got from my parents on this issue was that they think my wife and I are a bit over-protective of our kids when it comes to film. They still don't understand why the youngest didn't get to see the 4th Harry Potter until she was almost 11.


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## Aeolius (May 12, 2011)

Crazy Jerome said:


> They still don't understand why the youngest didn't get to see the 4th Harry Potter until she was almost 11.




I took a few of my kids, including my daughter who was 9 at the time, to see Sweeney Todd... but my parents gave up hope for me long ago.


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## billd91 (May 12, 2011)

Crazy Jerome said:


> The only flak I ever got from my parents on this issue was that they think my wife and I are a bit over-protective of our kids when it comes to film. They still don't understand why the youngest didn't get to see the 4th Harry Potter until she was almost 11.




Our 6-year old has seen them all - though mostly at home on DVD. We screen them first and then make our determination whether he gets to see them or not.

I remember my parents took me to my first R-rated movie when I was 13. It was *Ordinary People*. Excellent film.


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## NewJeffCT (May 12, 2011)

Crazy Jerome said:


> I never got any flak in my mostly Southern Baptist family for D&D. The closest was a relative that thought C. S. Lewis was a little free with his imagery in Narnia, but her reaction was to engage me in discussion. I got a little flack at school, but that quickly blew over. We even used avowedly roleplaying techniques in Bible study.
> 
> The first and only time I got flak was after a guest minister at an avowdly mainstream (Prebysterian, I think) church got all wacky. One of my friends who attended came away confused. It quickly became obvious talking to her that this guy needed a scapegoat that would not offend the congregation, because that would affect the collection. A real fundamentalist, serious minister in that church would have talked about divorce or spending time with your children or something like that. Not roleplaying games. Not far away political issues. About things possibly pertinent in daily life to the people sitting in the audience.
> 
> ...




I am very strict about not letting my daughter watch the Harry Potter movies until she finishes the books.   So, she's seen the first four movies, but won't get to see the Order of the Phoenix movie until she finishes that book (she's a bit over halfway through the book...)  And, I do quiz her on the details of the books as she reads them, just to make sure she is not skipping anything.

I gave her a challenge, though.  If she can finish all the books by July 15, I'll take her to the midnight showing of Deathly Hallows 2.  (she turned 8 this past February) 

Her comment after seeing the Goblet of Fire movie is, "so, Cedric got killed by Voldemort & came back as a vampire in Twilight."    (She has not seen the Twilight movies - just has seen the pictures/posters)


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## Crazy Jerome (May 12, 2011)

billd91 said:


> Our 6-year old has seen them all - though mostly at home on DVD. We screen them first and then make our determination whether he gets to see them or not.
> 
> I remember my parents took me to my first R-rated movie when I was 13. It was *Ordinary People*. Excellent film.




One of the reasons we are careful about it is because my parents were not, exactly.  It wasn't as if they took me to see stuff way out of line, but there was definitely some things I'd just have soon missed or waited on.  Of course, when I was little, VCRs were not an option yet, and you saw it when it came out, or waited for a cut version on TV several years later.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

renau1g said:


> My twins are age 3 now and their favourite book is the 3.5e MM1.




Yeah, no kidding. For a while I wasn't sure why I bothered shelving my books at all.


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## Elf Witch (May 12, 2011)

Since RPGs didn't exist when I was under my parents roof I never had to deal with the situation. I had to deal with my mom going wacky when she found my really bad fanfic Trek stories I had written when I was about 13. Yes I admit I put myself in the story.

She was convinced that I didn't know reality from fiction and thought Trek was real. So I had to see this clueless shrink and I finally got to stop going when I agreed to let her burn all my writing and the few Trek books and all my Robert Heinlein novels. 

When I started meeting other Trek and SF fans at cons I found out that a lot of them wrote fanfic. I still write some to this day though I have out grown the need to put myself in the story.

I think she would have had the same reaction if I had been playing DnD.

To be blunt my mom is crazy she was emotional and physically abusive to us kids especially me. I was a very withdrawn and moody child because of it and she looked for other factors then the real ones to blame.

My son started playing TNMT as a kid and then went to Tunnels and Trolls. I had issues with his teachers over it who thought the games were dangerous because they blurred the line between reality and make believe. I had an open mind when I talked to them read the literature they presented and then calmly presented why I thought they were wrong in my son's case. 

In the end  it became a non issue. 

I don't like to judge parents if I don't have all the facts. I will say this if a parent really believes that playing DnD is a danger to their child's immortal soul then you can't really blame them for saying no you can't play this game. To them no matter how unreasonable we may feel about it it is the same as letting their child play in traffic. As a parent you have a duty to protect your child from dangers. That is what they are doing.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2011)

Elf Witch said:


> She was convinced that I didn't know reality from fiction and thought Trek was real. So I had to see this clueless shrink and I finally got to stop going when I agreed to let her burn all my writing and the few Trek books and all my Robert Heinlein novels.




I am so, so sorry. I can only imagine what that must have been like.


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## Elf Witch (May 12, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> I am so, so sorry. I can only imagine what that must have been like.




I won't lie and say it was not horrible. I did try and kill myself when I was 15. Luckily my parents divorced when I was 16 and I lived with my dad who never understood my love of SF or being a member of the SCA but was always there for me.

My last birthday gift from him before he passed away in 2004 was a bunch of Trek shows on DVD.

And that year he got my son a gift certificate from the local game store so he could buy gaming books.


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## ForeverSlayer (May 13, 2011)

All this kid can do at this point is try and talk to the mother and see where they go from there.  If she still says no then it has to be accepted.  Any kind of rebellion or lawyering will only fan the flames and make matters worse.  

Never ever give a child advice to disobey their parents unless it is a very good reason and RPG's are not one of them.  It's a shame that the mother acted this way but that's how life works.  Life isn't fair at all, life is like an RPG, you have some sway over how it turns out but everyday is just a roll of the dice.  

D&D has been a scapegoat for many years now because it's an easy target.  Sure there have been instances where people believed in it and there are also instances where a person knew they could use role playing to get them out of trouble.


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## ForeverSlayer (May 13, 2011)

I've been in e-mail contact with you already concerning ENWorld's rules.  One of those rules is that, if you take issue with any of the moderation, then you discuss it with the moderator privately, not in the thread. - Rel


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## Saeviomagy (May 13, 2011)

The simple fact of the matter is that there are some people in the world on whom rational argument is lost. Unfortunately these same people will tend to glom onto the first argument that is presented with passion and, as a defense mechanism, avoid listening to any other argument lest their opinion be swayed back again. Unfortunately as a rational person your only real course of action with people like this is to avoid them as much as possible.

If one of these people happens to be your parent then things can become difficult. The best thing you can do is recognise the behaviour and make sure that you do not exhibit it yourself.


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

> The simple fact of the matter is that there are some people in the world on whom rational argument is lost




The intellectual elitists do the exact same thing. They just have a lot more words to do it with.

The truth of the matter is when somebody makes up their mind it's completely impossible to change it, and it doesn't matter if it's a scientist, or politician, or a theist, they all behave the exact same way and will dismiss anything that doesn't fit their worldview.

Such as the intellectual elitists and their refusal to believe in the supernatural. They wouldn't believe it if it bit them on the ass. They say they would change their minds if they were presented with evidence, but they dismiss all evidence as a hoax because some things were a hoax.

It's no different than a theist dismissing evolution in the same way ebcause they just don't want to believe.

And this is not a false equivocation. A tennis shoe with a shoe lace and a tennis shoe with Velcro are still tennis shoes, regardless of the difference in the details. And regardless of what they say.


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## Umbran (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> Such as the intellectual elitists and their refusal to believe in the supernatural. They wouldn't believe it if it bit them on the ass. They say they would change their minds if they were presented with evidence, but they dismiss all evidence as a hoax because some things were a hoax.
> 
> It's no different than a theist dismissing evolution in the same way ebcause they just don't want to believe.




Actually, there is a difference, in terms of logic.  Appeals to the the supernatural are generally "non-falsifiable".


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

> Actually, there is a difference,




I don't care anything about logic. Logic only turns people into arrogant pricks who think they're better than anybody else and treat anybody they want like crap because they think they're better than anybody else.


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## Theo R Cwithin (May 13, 2011)

​ 

.​


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## DrunkonDuty (May 13, 2011)

My folks were always very supportive of my gaming. They saw it as imaginative and helpful in improving literacy and numeracy skills. Good stuff as far as they were concerned. 

I think that sometimes my mum wished I'd been a bit a of a tear-away. Not the full "sex drugs and rocknroll" but maybe some of the rocknroll. I think that she was worrying about my socialisation with the, er, general populace. 

My dad was always kinda fascinated by it all. He's the one who got me into scifi and fantasy novels as a youngster. But he never took up gaming unfortunately. Now he's retired and has the time maybe I can convince him to give it a try... I mean he likes computer RPGs.

I feel sorry for the kid in the OP. I have trouble understanding that sort of parenting and that sort of strange scapegoating. I did encounter a little of it High School, some of the other kids were quite religious and repeated some of that stupid "DnD is Satanic" nonsense. But they were just people I knew, not even close friends. I simply laughed them off.* Not the same situation as with a parent who disapproves.

In terms of grief suffered for my hobby I copped a lot more from "DnD is nerdy." A LOT more.

*In hindsight I was more than a bit derisive of where they were coming from, belief-wise. If I ever meet them again I should apologise.

anywoo, that's my story. CHeers.


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## Katana_Geldar (May 13, 2011)

The thing about confusing reality and fantasy is just...odd. A person who does that has serious issues anyway.


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> The truth of the matter is when somebody makes up their mind it's completely impossible to change it



That's a remarkably broad brush there. You're certainly right about some people, but you can't say that about everyone. It's simply not true.


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

> It's simply not true.




You want to know the ironic thing about your statement is?

I'd bet there's nothing that can change your mind from that.


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> You want to know the ironic thing about your statement is?
> 
> I'd bet there's nothing that can change your mind from that.



About that particular thing? No, I doubt it, because I've witnessed enough  (and done enough) mind-changing to know it's not true.

That's the thing about such broad generalizations: they're very easy to disprove, and exceedingly hard to prove.


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## Katana_Geldar (May 13, 2011)

It depends on how broadminded people are. I have found zealous religious people are usually *not* broadminded.


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## RedTonic (May 13, 2011)

I don't think there's a point to engaging someone who seems to be trolling.

Even Jack Chick is being forced to moderate his stance (by deleting old tracts off of his site--apparently even very conservative believers find his works objectionable!). I think that many of the people who were paranoid about the effects of pen and paper RPGs have become paranoid of violent videogames instead--next to rather realistic depictions of graphic violence, saying that you attack a horde of goblins with your +1 flaming longsword is merely eccentric. 

(I remember when all of the theaters in my area removed the House of the Dead games because some parents' organization complained about the "realistic gore" when you shot the teeming undead. Suddenly I had a lot more money afterwards...)


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

RedTonic said:


> I don't think there's a point to engaging someone who seems to be trolling.



Sure there is. I've been thinking about it, and he's right: people don't change their minds. He's changed my mind about that.

Whoops.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 13, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> That's a remarkably broad brush there. You're certainly right about some people, but you can't say that about everyone. It's simply not true.




Case in point:

CrownHeights.info » Neo-Nazi Speaks About Conversion to Judaism

A truly remarkable and deep change.


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## Jeffrey (May 13, 2011)

Damn, when I was 17 I didn't own $1,000 worth of *anything*!

I am so old...


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## SuperJebba (May 13, 2011)

D&D is not in and of itself satanic, but it certainly contains elements that could lead someone down that road.  It has unfortunately led some people down that road, and that is what the ultra-conservatives focus on which is too bad.  That view of D&D is so far from the norm and very narrow.

D&D is what you make of it.  For me, it is playing a hero and participating in a cool story, getting phat lewtz and hanging out with my friends.  Casting a spell is simply saying, "I cast fireball, make your reflex save."  

It is too bad that some people have taken D&D too far and ruined its image for the rest of us that just like to have fun.


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## Tanstaafl_au (May 13, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> I challenge you to describe how someone who has the ability, and the ethical justification for an action, dose not have the right. If the parents' justification is based on the child's well-being, then that justification fades when an action is counter to a child's well-being. And a teenager does have the ability to recognize that some things may be counter to their well-being. If, on the other hand, the justification is based on the parent's preferences, that is not a right, only a preference. Parents do not have a right to enforce what is merely a preference, any more than any human being can enforce their preferences on any other human being.




You seem to be using 'right' in a different way to me. I'm not going to accept a challenge unless I actually understand your terms. 
Actually I prefer discussion over some calling out to prove myself correct over opinion based matters. 

I was using the term right as a legal, united nations term. The word 'rights' having a defined meaning and set of guildines. eg UNICEF - Convention on the Rights of the Child -. Personally I dont consider withholding a leisure based book from a kid a violation of the UN bill of rights for children.
I don't consider particluarily harmful to a child's well being if its an isolated case either. Taking everything away from a child they enjoy would be determiental to thier growth, taking one book or pastime meh.

I also wouldn't place a teenager in the same catergory as a child. By 15 in many locales, a teenager has the right to move out of home and make any of their own rules. 

A statement stating a child has ethical justification for x action is really going to become a debate about personal ethics. 
Children, and teenagers, may well feel they have ethical grounds for disagreeing with parent, and be wrong in terms of possible harm.
Ethics are slippery suckers. There as as many version of what is ethicals as there are people.

I also didn't say I thought parents had the 'right to enforce a preference', but in realistic terms over actual rights, that is a basic strong truth of parenting children. It's justified by most society's social contracts and norms. Parents are allowed to do what they think best for thier children unless it harms the child. 

In most legal senses, I doubt a child (again teenagers are different) would have much success in the small claims court arguing that their parents took away a toy the parent thought was unsafe - even if they proved toy was really safe. 
House owners in most places have the legal right to choose whats in thier house, (aside from the obvious things enforced by law/standards liek fire alarms in some locales). If they don't wont green couchs, they can get rid of them. If they dont want books by authors with the name starting with G, then they don't have to. It may not be fair, but the mere fact something is unfair doesn't grant you a legal right, or imo even a moral right automactially.

In day to day life, humans constantly enforce their preferences on other humans, not just parents over children, but bosses over staff, the diner that closes before the evening meal, the IP court that wont allow game designers to use hairy footed half-humans, buses that run every hour and that's ten minutes before you leave from work, etc etc.

Having the ability to do something, and the moral belief that you are right doesn't equal the right to do something, at least not as I define 'rights'.

Edit: I still don't personally agree with the parent btw - just making that clear.


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## Tanstaafl_au (May 13, 2011)

Twowolves said:


> You too eh? We had a player who's parents forbid him from playing D&D on religious grounds, but had absolutely no problem if we replaced "orcs" with "bank robbers" and "thieves" with "superheroes". So we played MSH and V&V until he turned 18 and then told them he was an adult and he'd do as he damn well pleased.




Heh. I do still have such a fond memory spot for those two games.

But clarifying, my parents have always been very cool with D&D and RPGs, it was the school that didnt allow it.


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## aurance (May 13, 2011)

SuperJebba said:


> D&D is not in and of itself satanic, but it certainly contains elements that could lead someone down that road.  It has unfortunately led some people down that road, and that is what the ultra-conservatives focus on which is too bad.  That view of D&D is so far from the norm and very narrow.
> 
> D&D is what you make of it.  For me, it is playing a hero and participating in a cool story, getting phat lewtz and hanging out with my friends.  Casting a spell is simply saying, "I cast fireball, make your reflex save."
> 
> It is too bad that some people have taken D&D too far and ruined its image for the rest of us that just like to have fun.




There's no evidence that it's actually _led_ anyone down that road.


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## RPG_Tweaker (May 13, 2011)

ForeverSlayer said:


> All this kid can do at this point is try and talk to the mother and see where they go from there.  If she still says no then it has to be accepted. Any kind of rebellion or lawyering will only fan the flames and make matters worse.



No it does not have to be accepted. Rebellion against tyranny of this sort is fully justified. 

That mother abused her parental status by violating that kid's personal space and imposing her religious belief.

She would be justified in saying "that game and those books are not allowed in this house, you will keep them elsewhere." but by throwing out his books, she's treating him as a slave where SHE decides how he may pursue personal happiness, and that his things are actually her things. 



> Never ever give a child advice to disobey their parents unless it is a very good reason and RPG's are not one of them.



It IS a very good reason.

The principle of personal prerogative. The goal of becoming a self-deciding  person rather than an indoctrinated brain-clone of another.

The mother's actions were unjust, illiberal, and emotionally cruel... and I would freely counsel the kid to disobey if they too felt strongly enough about it.


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## Dilandau Kale (May 13, 2011)

The thing that gets me is the mother takes away the books for having supposedly satanic imagery in them but lets him have a computer where he is one search engine query away from all the satanic imagery/information a person could ever need.


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## Raven Crowking (May 13, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> You're certainly right about some people,





HEY!  I'm *right here*!


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## Bullgrit (May 13, 2011)

RedTonic said:
			
		

> Even Jack Chick is being forced to moderate his stance (by deleting old tracts off of his site--apparently even very conservative believers find his works objectionable!).



Oh, goodness. I hope he doesn't delete his _Dark Dungeons_ tract, else "NO, NOT BLACK LEAF!" may be lost to history as a D&D gamer meme.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/182032-coils-set-thoughts.html#post3214894

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...r-journey-dark-side-complete.html#post2971430

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...e-gencon-let-me-count-ways-2.html#post2508970

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/88695-female-dms.html#post1551269

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/45867-im-not-dead-3.html#post809202

Bullgrit


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Raven Crowking said:


> HEY!  I'm *right here*!



Sorry, I always assume you have me on ignore, so I can say what I please about you.


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## Raven Crowking (May 13, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> Sorry, I always assume you have me on ignore, so I can say what I please about you.




Nah.  

We often disagree, but you are capable of listening to other points of view, you (sometimes  ) have interesting things to say, and you don't pretend that you said Not-X as soon as it is clear that X requires modification/may be wrong.

There are _*very*_,_* very *_few people I have on Ignore.  And, given half a reason, I don't keep them there.  I don't like shutting off different points of view, as long as I believe there is at least some constructive value to be had!

(I admit, though, that once or twice I have put someone on Ignore for the length of time I was involved in a particular thread, just to keep myself from getting banned!  Then, afterward, I took the person off.  It can do wonders for your blood pressure.)

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

One of my (many) failings is that I don't always succeed.

RC


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## Silverblade The Ench (May 13, 2011)

It's the "Human Problem"
Politics or religion, we Humans always take an idea, ethos, belief, whatever, and form an organization, a group around it...and that's when it, the _organization_, goes to Hell 

It's inevitable, the more power/money is involved, faster and worse it gets, Psychosis and paranoid mania drives leaders to suicide, wars, genocides, burning books...etc etc
Anything that is "_Not what THEY themselves can tolerate they must destroy, as it upsets the limited scope of what they can tolerate before their petty little world gets shaken_"

Left, Right, Christianity, Islam, Paganism, whatever, doesn't matter, one guy can take it and make it work beautifully, and another can turn it into a horror because he will not open his horizons, cannot bend the knee to another, cannot give and take, cannot laugh at himself.
That, is real life. Judge 'em by their deeds, not what cloak they profess to wear. "By their fruits ye shall know them"


Now, as a DM I often use some pretty horrific storylines and characters, because Sherlock Holmes doesn't fight Aunty May who steals some flowers fromMary Jane's garden...Jesus didn't wrestle with Uncle Albert the grouchy relative... 

heroes need to confront _vlliains_. they need a "worthy adversary", and sometimes, just such an evil, heinous SOB, that dropping a napalm strike via a Meteor Swarm up his kazoo, is a Justifiably Fun Act! 

Having said all that, I have more experience of spiritual evil than most unfortunately
D&D is a freakin' GAME, it is often a complex morality tale we tell each other. This is a GOOD THING (tm).
True "Evil" is utterly corrosive, it's about absolute nihilism, hatred and destruction of everything, that exists, egotistical, monomaniacal, sociopathic mass murder by _suggestion_, anything decent: kindess, honour, love are anathema and hurtful to it 
Nitwits who go on about it haven't got a damn clue, and should STFU because if they DO ever encounter it, they'll never be the same, self-righteous twerp ever again, I can assure you.


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## Crazy Jerome (May 13, 2011)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Nitwits who go on about it haven't got a damn clue, and should STFU because if they DO ever encounter it, they'll never be the same, self-righteous twerp ever again, I can assure you.




This.  It is exactly the same problem that causes, for example, principals and teachers to sometimes completely lose all common sense when dealing with a six year old drawing a picture of a gun, under a "zero tolerance" policy.


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

It's quite simple. He hadn't really locked in his beliefs. Now that he's found himself there will be no way to change his mind and he'll simply dismiss anything out of hand.

And telling me otherwise only reinforces that. Because in telling me I'm wrong, regardless of the exact words used and the manner they're used in, it's still a dismissal of something a person doesn't want to believe.

Because that how people are. If there's something they don't want to believe, they all act the same way, and will dismiss anything that doesn't fit their world view in any way they can.

You may see it as a broad brush, but sometimes a broad brush is true.

And the other thing about people too is they never see nor understand what they do to other people. Especially when they believe they're right. It's very very very important for people to believe they're right, sometimes overpoweringly so.


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## Orius (May 13, 2011)

Elf Witch said:


> Since RPGs didn't exist when I was under my parents roof I never had to deal with the situation. I had to deal with my mom going wacky when she found my really bad fanfic Trek stories I had written when I was about 13. Yes I admit I put myself in the story.




She was protecting you from the evils of Mary Sue!

I hope that didn't come of as too insensitive given the background, but I couldn't resist.  Sorry.  You seem to be aware of the whole self-insert bad fanfic thing.



> I will say this if a parent really believes that playing DnD is a danger to their child's immortal soul then you can't really blame them for saying no you can't play this game. To them no matter how unreasonable we may feel about it it is the same as letting their child play in traffic. As a parent you have a duty to protect your child from dangers. That is what they are doing.




See, that's the real problem here.  They're convinced that anything that's said to be even remotely Satanic will damn their kids eternally if it's experienced for even 5 minutes.  It's a natural protective instinct that's gone into extreme overdrive, and nothing Stackpole or anything anyone else will convince them otherwise.  Particularly if they've been convinced by some preacher, because they implicity trust him in everything.  If he says D&D is from the devil, it's an eternal truth.


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> It's quite simple. He hadn't really locked in his beliefs. Now that he's found himself there will be no way to change his mind and he'll simply dismiss anything out of hand.



So, how do you determine whether someone has "locked in" their beliefs then? You say he can change his beliefs because they weren't "locked in"; but before then, they were his beliefs. How do you know that _now_ he's found himself, whereas before he hadn't? How do you know that his current state of belief isn't also some transient stage before final-belief-locking-in, which might differ from the present beliefs?



Diamond Cross said:


> And telling me otherwise only reinforces that. Because in telling me I'm wrong, regardless of the exact words used and the manner they're used in, it's still a dismissal of something a person doesn't want to believe.



What if I were to tell you I think you're wrong due to very specific reasons, rather than just a general blanket dismissal?


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

Those specific reasons are still just another way to not  believe what you don't want to believe. As I said, regardless of the exact words used, it's still a dismissal. Whenever a person doesn't want to believe they will use anything at their disposal to support their decisions and beliefs. This is something that everybody does.


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> Those specific reasons are still just another way to not  believe what you don't want to believe.



So you're saying everyone makes up their minds first, and then decides on the reasons? You can't make a decision based on the reasons, it's always the other way around?

You don't care to comment on my question of how you know when someone has "locked in" their beliefs, and when they're still open to being changed even if they appear to be locked in?


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## nedjer (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> I don't care anything about logic. Logic only turns people into arrogant pricks who think they're better than anybody else and treat anybody they want like crap because they think they're better than anybody else.




Dude, your knickers are getting in a twist here. You asked me where the scientific evidence was, now you say you're not interested in evidence. Please reinstate your usually outstanding sense of humour and wit


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> So you're saying everyone makes up their minds first, and then decides on the reasons? You can't make a decision based on the reasons, it's always the other way around?
> 
> You don't care to comment on my question of how you know when someone has "locked in" their beliefs, and when they're still open to being changed even if they appear to be locked in?




Actually, most people do make up their minds first. But that's not what I was saying. It's when people have made up their minds that they can never change it under any circumstances. The order doesn't matter.

And I don't know when, I just leave it up to the person to show me. I will know under certain circumstances. Those circumstances include things like when I've shown them evidence to show them they're wrong and they keep on repeating the same thing again and again and again.

Because, if you're shown to be wrong you're supposed to change your mind and agree with the evidence, but that's not what happens.

And sometimes, people won't consider the evidence, no matter what, because they don't want to believe. Such as people who refuse to believe in evolution. There is a lot of evidence to show that evolution is true, and that it does have practical applications. (Such as in medicine in dealing with the adaptive abilities of bacteria to become more resistant to medicine and anti-bacterial agents).

When people don't want to believe anything, they will do whatever they can to support their decision and beliefs, and dismiss anything that doesn't fit. It doesn't matter what their station in life is, everybody does this.


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> Because, if you're shown to be wrong you're supposed to change your mind and agree with the evidence, but that's not what happens.



I fully agree that this does happen, sometimes. What I'm disputing is your apparent assertion that all people behave this way all the time.

This is what I mean about your broad brush. There is no doubt that some people, even most people, make up their minds about some things and do so not based on any particular reason, so that showing them different reasons will have no effect on that belief.

But it's flatly untrue that all people do this about everything.


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> I fully agree that this does happen, sometimes. What I'm disputing is your apparent assertion that all people behave this way all the time.
> 
> This is what I mean about your broad brush. There is no doubt that some people, even most people, make up their minds about some things and do so not based on any particular reason, so that showing them different reasons will have no effect on that belief.
> 
> But it's flatly untrue that all people do is about everything.




And I simply can not agree with you. It simply shows you do not understand what I am saying.

Because you've already made up your mind and now there's simply nothing in the world that will change it.

When a person makes up their minds there is nothing in the world that can change it. They will use whatever means at their disposal to support that decisions and belief.

And that is what I'm saying.

It's human nature.


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> When a person makes up their minds there is nothing in the world that can change it. They will use whatever means at their disposal to support that decisions and belief.



I understand what you're saying. And I agree that for most people, there are beliefs for which this is an accurate description.

But you seem to be saying that no person is capable of rationally examining any of their beliefs. That once they've "made up their mind" about anything, there's nothing that can dissuade them. Again, I agree that this is true about some things for some people, but it is not universal to all beliefs held by all people.

When presented with a case of a radical change in beliefs, you dismiss it by saying that he hadn't "really made up his mind". So I guess you need to better define what having "made up your mind" means.


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## nedjer (May 13, 2011)

aurance said:


> There's no evidence that it's actually _led_ anyone down that road.




Absolutely, they choose to go down that road because it lines their pockets, creates the pretence of community action and this bolsters their self-righteouness and therefore self-esteem. That leads to something known as the 'chocolate biscuit effect', alongside something known as the fundamental attribution error, which form an expanded sense of self-entitlement whereby their personal psychological structuring is unable to cope with challenges to even a small part of the whole irrational scheme. Hence nice as pie while you don't psychologically 'attack' them personally, (as they understand it) and immediate recourse to fervour, emotional blackmail and volatile outbursts when challenged over the tiniest detail.

Ironically, as Christianity is an abnegational religion, they are 'off the rails' as their scriptures specifically advised against the dangers of succumbing to their own egos, e.g. David (superego) has to overcome the monstrosities of the Goliath (ego). Which happens to be what Diamond Dude sees occuring in academic circles, where conceit can often diminish inquiry.

However, being totally academically up myself, please don't take my word for it. Derren Brown's recent look at evangelical preaching in the US, (and much of his other work) shows just how stunningly easy it is to fool people through pushing the right buttons.


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## nedjer (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> Those specific reasons are still just another way to not  believe what you don't want to believe. As I said, regardless of the exact words used, it's still a dismissal. Whenever a person doesn't want to believe they will use anything at their disposal to support their decisions and beliefs. This is something that everybody does.




That's not what I've done here. I've offered scientific evidence and debate, and I ask for your valid evidence and insight in return. Any scientist worth their Walker's Crisps doesn't hold to absolute truths or rigid interpretation whether its RPGs or open heart surgery.

It's a bit hard to after chatting with the quantum physicists, who don't hesitate to note that none of us have 'the answers', but that science's measurement of itself saves countless lives, e.g. smallpox, compared to superstition and folklore which devastates whole populations.

Superstition doesn't put itself forward for measurement and testing; science does. Science saves lives; superstition kills. According to the dogmatic I guess that means superstition is evil?


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> I understand what you're saying. And I agree that for most people, there are beliefs for which this is an accurate description.
> 
> But you seem to be saying that no person is capable of rationally examining any of their beliefs. That once they've "made up their mind" about anything, there's nothing that can dissuade them. Again, I agree that this is true about some things for some people, but it is not universal to all beliefs held by all people.
> 
> When presented with a case of a radical change in beliefs, you dismiss it by saying that he hadn't "really made up his mind". So I guess you need to better define what having "made up your mind" means.




Most people are incapable or rationally examining their beliefs, but that is not what I'm saying. It's when people have made up their minds is what I am talking about.

For example, you're made up your mind that you can not agree with what I'm saying. You have your reasons, of course, but you'll never change it under any circumstances.

My statement was not about the processes with how a person makes their decisions, just once they make their decisions and come to their conclusions. 

It's impossible to change a person's mind.


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## Umbran (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> Because, if you're shown to be wrong you're supposed to change your mind and agree with the evidence, but that's not what happens.




As a practical matter, you cannot show him wrong unless you can demonstrate for all people on the planet (6.92 billion or so of them) are incapable of changing their minds.

And he cannot show you are wrong, because without the ability to discern if someone's beliefs are "locked in", your assertion is non-falsifiable.

I don't make this comment for your sake, by the way.  I make it for those who are considering continued butting of heads against you.


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

Umbran said:


> As a practical matter, you cannot show him wrong unless you can demonstrate for all people on the planet (6.92 billion or so of them) are incapable of changing their minds.
> 
> And he cannot show you are wrong, because without the ability to discern if someone's beliefs are "locked in", your assertion is non-falsifiable.
> 
> I don't make this comment for your sake, by the way.  I make it for those who are considering continued butting of heads against you.




I know the drill. Once I have a dissenting opinion people have to be rude, crude, and do their utmost brow beat me into submission and then when I protest I'm doing something wrong and I'll get removed from the discussion because I'm the one using inflammatory statements, being snively, or whatever, etc etc etc...


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> Most people are incapable or rationally examining their beliefs, but that is not what I'm saying. It's when people have made up their minds is what I am talking about.



Why does the basis for having made up one's mind not matter? If I made up my mind based on an examination of evidence, why would new evidence not have any effect on me?



Diamond Cross said:


> For example, you're made up your mind that you can not agree with what I'm saying. You have your reasons, of course, but you'll never change it under any circumstances.



That's because the evidence you would need to provide in this case is impossible to provide now. You're claiming something never happens, so as long as I've seen it happen a few times myself, which I have, I know that you're incorrect.

But there's any number of things you might be able to change my mind about. It depends on the thing.



Diamond Cross said:


> My statement was not about the processes with how a person makes their decisions, just once they make their decisions and come to their conclusions.



You are talking about decision-making processes, though. If someone, let's call him Mr. Scientist, makes a decision about something based on evidence available at the time, and then later new evidence arises that would cause Mr. Scientist to have reached a different decision if he had it before. You're apparently saying he will not change his mind after examining this new evidence, since he's already made up his mind once and will therefore not change it. But this changing happens all the time.


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## Umbran (May 13, 2011)

nedjer said:


> Ironically, as Christianity is an abnegational religion, they are 'off the rails' as their scriptures specifically advised against the dangers of succumbing to their own egos.....





*Nobody in this thread should need to be reminded of the NO RELIGION rule at this point.  The next person who does need that reminder can expect to be booted from the thread without further warning or discussion.*


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## nedjer (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> I know the drill. Once I have a dissenting opinion people have to be rude, crude, and do their utmost brow beat me into submission and then when I protest I'm doing something wrong and I'll get removed from the discussion because I'm the one using inflammatory statements, being snively, or whatever, etc etc etc...




I'm not browbeating you. I, virtually, like you. Your posts are often well amusing 

It is a bit 'up in lights' that you're not replying in support of your view. You clearly have strongly held opinions, cool, but what are they based on?


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> Why does the basis for having made up one's mind not matter? If I made up my mind based on an examination of evidence, why would new evidence not have any effect on me?
> 
> 
> That's because the evidence you would need to provide in this case is impossible to provide now. You're claiming something never happens, so as long as I've seen it happen a few times myself, which I have, I know that you're incorrect.
> ...





The evidence is you're doing it right now. You're behaving in the exact manner I have described.

You can not agree with me and you will not change your mind and you will use any means at your disposal to justify how you're right and I'm not. 

You will not change your mind because you have not seen it. And no matter what evidence I show you will not see it under any circumstances.

And no, I am  not talking about the process to how people come to their decisions. That is a strawman.

That is what people do. Once they have made up their minds it's impossible to change it under any circumstances.

And you're providing the evidence because this is what you're doing right now. All you're doing is dismissing everything I say and describe because it doesn't fit your worldview. 

No amount of "evidence" I bring to this discussion will ever convince you see how truthful I am in my statement. That's the great irony. 

It is not what you're saying, it is how you're behaving. Anybody can say anything, but it's the actions that are important.

And right now you can not and will not change your mind because you have already made it up.

There is only so many times I can repeat myself.

There is only so many times you can make your demands.

In the meantime....

STARSHIP PRON!


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

nedjer said:


> I'm not browbeating you. I, virtually, like you. Your posts are often well amusing
> 
> It is a bit 'up in lights' that you're not replying in support of your view. You clearly have strongly held opinions, cool, but what are they based on?





They are based on the behavior I've seen and experienced from people.

And I do do my utmost ability to support my posts. The thing is, I don't care for logic, because it really does make people arrogant and turns people into jerks. I also don't care for religion because it does the same thing.

Truth doesn't need logic or religion to support it. Truth is just there.

And the truth is you cannot change a person's mind when it is made up, and it doesn't matter who it is, all people behave this way.

Some people rely on logic to do so, some people rely on their emotions to  do so. But it doesn't really matter, it is the same behavior.


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> No amount of "evidence" I bring to this discussion will ever convince you see how truthful I am in my statement.



Even if this is true, this doesn't mean you can generalize from this discussion to all discussions.



Diamond Cross said:


> And right now you can not and will not change your mind because you have already made it up.



No, it's because you haven't given me any reason to change it. But we're obviously not getting anywhere here.


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## Raven Crowking (May 13, 2011)

May I interject to say that I want a new _*Order of the Stick*_ episode?

That is all.


RC


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> Even if this is true, this doesn't mean you can generalize from this discussion to all discussions.
> 
> 
> No, it's because you haven't given me any reason to change it. But we're obviously not getting anywhere here.




Yes it does. This is something that most elitist intellectuals who value logic above else forget. Most people don't use logic.

And yes I have given you plenty of reasons. You will just dismiss them out of hand because you don't want to see it. Just as I've been saying.

People will use any means at their disposal to not change their minds. It doesn't matter what the words they use or how verbose they get, it's still a dismissal of something they don't want to believe or see.

But we are getting way off topic here and we should return to the original topic.


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> Most people don't use logic.



I fully agree with this. But new emotional appeals can work just as well as logic to change someone's mind, depending on the person and the topic.



Diamond Cross said:


> And yes I have given you plenty of reasons.



"It just is" is not a reason.


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

Fifth Element said:


> I fully agree with this. But new emotional appeals can work just as well as logic to change someone's mind, depending on the person and the topic.
> 
> 
> "It just is" is not a reason.




Yes it is, you just can't accept it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 13, 2011)

> And the truth is you cannot change a person's mind when it is made up, and it doesn't matter who it is, all people behave this way.



That is NOT a true statement.  While it may be true of some people, it is far from a universal truth.

That Neo-Nazi convert I posted about earlier wasn't the one I went looking for as an exemplar, just the first one I found.  The one I went looking for was a man who had repeatedly victimized a particular Rabbi and his family.  That man died a few years ago...married to a hispanic woman and as a good friend of the Rabbi he had tormented for years.

I could recount other examples of people changing their minds- actually, i did, in the form of those who thought I was hellbound due to metal and gaming until I convinced them otherwise- but but apparently, your mind is made up.  And I've spent enough energy on this tangent.


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## Raven Crowking (May 13, 2011)

A suppose a compiled *Wormy* collection would be good, too.


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## Fifth Element (May 13, 2011)

Raven Crowking said:


> A suppose a compiled *Wormy* collection would be good, too.



That would indeed be awesome. Make it happen!


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 13, 2011)

Raven Crowking said:


> A suppose a compiled *Wormy* collection would be good, too.




I'm convinced.


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## nedjer (May 13, 2011)

Umbran said:


> *Nobody in this thread should need to be reminded of the NO RELIGION rule at this point.  The next person who does need that reminder can expect to be booted from the thread without further warning or discussion.*




Understood


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## TheObserver (May 13, 2011)

In reading this thread I just had to share my own experiences.  I grew up a small conservative TX town and when I got into D&D we didn't openly board cast.  As for my parents my dad was the most vocal and he even got one of his minister friends to come over and talk to me about D&D and out of respect for my dad I let him and his friend burn my D&D collection.  Now that I'm older I still love and play D&D and I'm even teaching both my boys to play.  From my observations it seems most people have a knee jerk reaction when they don't fully understand or try to understand.  Also I've had to explain to my wife that I was a gamer and will always be one.  I still fondly remember her comment to me when my first son was born, "You're not going to have play that game are you?...ahh!!  Good times, she has since calmed down quite a bit.


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## RPG_Tweaker (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> And yes I have given you plenty of reasons. You will just dismiss them out of hand because you don't want to see it. Just as I've been saying.
> 
> People will use any means at their disposal to not change their minds. It doesn't matter what the words they use or how verbose they get, it's still a dismissal of something they don't want to believe or see.




Wow, there's enough irony here to build a battleship.


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

Well, getting back to the original topic before things get too heated and I get removed from another discussion, here's my sordid story of my experience with "D&D Is Satanic".

Believe it or not, when I was in high school, my high school held a rally about.... Satanism. The teachers were up in arms over D&D and other Satanic influences. Some of the teachers got up in front of the entire school body, which numbered about 400 students (I lived in a small town of a thousand people), about how Satanism turns people into horrible horrible monsters because they don't believe in God. They told sordid stories of how they found some places where Satanists gathered and sacrificed cats and other animals and even human sacrifice.

But the biggest story I remember is the teacher getting up and telling the story of his experience with Satan. It seemed he got concerned over a record he was listening to, so he decided to burn it. He set it afire and the fire went out just as it reached the center of the record. And yes, I am talking vinyl records here for this was a time before there was CDs and Commodore 64s were the best home computers money could by.

He got really scared and said the center of the record wouldn't burn because demons inhabited. it. He went so far as to fill a small bucket up with a gallon of gasoline, put the center of the record in it. He made a long fuse so he wouldn't get caught by the huge fireball, and lit the fuse and let her rip. I could imagine the huge column of fire that would erupt from a full bucket of gasoline. He was actually trembling while recounting his story.

Well, he said that after the fire finally burned out and the bucket was almost melted to nothing, he saw the center of the record. It had been untouched. He got really frightened and the only thing he could think of was to bury it somewhere. And he vowed unto God that he would never reveal the location of where he buried this piece of the record.

Now here's the kicker. The record was by KISS. Which, according to the teachers meant "Kids In Service To Satan", and of course other rock and roll bands worshiped Satan as well and even said so in their lyrics and the band names. Another such band was AC DC, which meant "Against Christ Destroy Christ".

But at the time I was far more gullible than I was now, and I got scared of it. I ended up throwing away almost a hundred dollars worth of AD&D things. But I was also a kid of about fifteen or so when this happened.

So, there's my story.


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## nedjer (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> They are based on the behavior I've seen and experienced from people.
> 
> And I do do my utmost ability to support my posts. The thing is, I don't care for logic, because it really does make people arrogant and turns people into jerks. I also don't care for religion because it does the same thing.
> 
> ...




Yeah, people get locked into persistent schemes of thinking that are very hard to change, often locked into childhood experiences and wrapped up in subconscious actions over which they have little control. Says he lighting a cigarette.

But that doesn't necessarily rule out the capacity for change and to present opportunities for change?


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## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2011)

nedjer said:


> Yeah, people get locked into persistent schemes of thinking that are very hard to change, often locked into childhood experiences and wrapped up in subconscious actions over which they have little control. Says he lighting a cigarette.
> 
> But that doesn't necessarily rule out the capacity for change and to present opportunities for change?




We're going to have to agree to disagree and let things get back to the original topic.


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## Aberzanzorax (May 13, 2011)

In my own work in clinical psychology, I often have to remind myself and clients that we all understand the world based upon our own learning and experiences...

...and that we do not all learn the same way, nor have the same experiences.



My best work is usually done when I try to understand another's learning and experiences...or when I teach others to develop that capacity within themselves.



The hardest obstacle to that is admitting that everything I/they know might be right from my perspective and experiences, and TOTALLY WRONG from another set of perspectives and experiences.


(I mention these experiences not only for the young man and his mother, but also given the direction the thread has taken...it's a bit of a microcosom of the event the OP mentions.)


EDIT: That doesn't mean I have to reverse my position, though. It means I have to BROADEN my understanding.


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## nedjer (May 13, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> Well, getting back to the original topic before things get too heated and I get removed from another discussion, here's my sordid story of my experience with "D&D Is Satanic".
> 
> Believe it or not, when I was in high school, my high school held a rally about.... Satanism. The teachers were up in arms over D&D and other Satanic influences. Some of the teachers got up in front of the entire school body, which numbered about 400 students (I lived in a small town of a thousand people), about how Satanism turns people into horrible horrible monsters because they don't believe in God. They told sordid stories of how they found some places where Satanists gathered and sacrificed cats and other animals and even human sacrifice.
> 
> ...




No wonder you ain't so keen on logic, when the figures representing logic and understanding were . . . a graphic novel earlier in the thread. Craig Thompson's Blankets. It's not a dudes' book, but I'd want to read it if I'd been in your position. And the brushwork's awesome.

My folks paid for me to go to town to pick RPG stuff at the game store, drove me to and from games, and bought me Led Zep, Thin Lizzy and Rolling Stones' albums. When my grandparents gave me a bit of cash the folks let me invest in a great deck, amp, . . . the lot. Both professional teachers


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## Diamond Cross (May 14, 2011)

nedjer said:


> No wonder you ain't so keen on logic, when the figures representing logic and understanding were . . . a graphic novel earlier in the thread. Craig Thompson's Blankets. It's not a dudes' book, but I'd want to read it if I'd been in your position. And the brushwork's awesome.
> 
> My folks paid for me to go to town to pick RPG stuff at the game store, drove me to and from games, and bought me Led Zep, Thin Lizzy and Rolling Stones' albums. When my grandparents gave me a bit of cash the folks let me invest in a great deck, amp, . . . the lot. Both professional teachers





Actually I didn't learn anything about critical thinking and logic until I started going to college which was at thirty. I'll look into that graphic novel.


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## Elf Witch (May 14, 2011)

Orius said:


> She was protecting you from the evils of Mary Sue!
> 
> I hope that didn't come of as too insensitive given the background, but I couldn't resist.  Sorry.  You seem to be aware of the whole self-insert bad fanfic thing.
> 
> ...




My stories were not even good Mary Sue's. My character in the stories didn't have delicate ankles that twist at just the right moment and all the male characters were not in love with her. Though she was a top notch pilot, engineer and handy with a phaser. 

Personally I think a lot of what some of these people believe to be off the wall. Sometimes it seems they see satanism in everything. And you usually can't change their mind.

But that doesn't change the fact that if you have certain religious beliefs you are going to try your hardest to raise your child in them because you believe that it is the right way. And when you believe in an immortal soul and damnation for all eternity you want to make sure that your child does nothing to endanger that.

I was raised Catholic and I was brought up with the entire concept of mortal sin and purgatory. It was a sin to eat meat on Friday or go to mass without your head covered. I was taught that doing those things would endanger my soul. I once had a hot dog on Friday and my mother panicked and dragged me to confession because she was afraid if I died before atonement I would be heading to hell.  She really believed this. So parents who really believe DND endangers their child's soul are going to be against it. 

If this mother truly believed the whole satanic BS then as a parent she did the right thing to protect her child. 

I feel sorry for the kid and I am glad his friend rescued his books and he will be 18 soon so hopefully he can be on his won and not have to deal with this.


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## RPG_Tweaker (May 14, 2011)

I am SO grateful that my parents were wise and just people who separated their parenting obligations from their personal beliefs. 

When I got into D&D ('79), rather than just make assumptions or parrot rumors, they actually asked me questions about the game... and trusted my intellect and personal responsibility to choose what kind of hobby I wanted to pursue.


The first time someone at high-school said "that game is satanic" to my face, I remember staring at her in shock for a few seconds and then belly laughing at the silliness of it. I said something to the effect of, "You fight _against_ demons and devils you goofball. They are _the enemy_."

The girl never even considered what I'd said. She just went off on irrelevant tangents and at least one bible quote... and I just continued laughing at her... until she finally threatened me with hell and walked away.

I encountered similar situations a few other times over the next few years, but never with the same rudely confrontational pig-ignorance of the girl at school. Most people were questioning its "status" rather than flat-out accusative.


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## Essenti (May 14, 2011)

There are three 17 year old players in our group, and the mother of one of them plays too!  She is actively taking part in a portion of her son's life and probably knows a heck of a lot more about what is going on with him than the mother in the linked story.

If only more parents would take such an active role in befriending and understanding their children.  She could have been there to steer him away from buying that one overtly offensive book to begin with. 

And wow.  Putting the books out on the street so that the "evil" can spread to the rest of the world.  Mighty neighborly and morally responsible thing to do...


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## TarionzCousin (May 14, 2011)

Raven Crowking said:


> A suppose a compiled *Wormy* collection would be good, too.



I would definitely buy the cancelled "Downer, Part Two" book from Paizo.


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## Relique du Madde (May 14, 2011)

My mom went through a Extreme Religious phase..  so much that during the 90s she had a Priest come in and exorcize the house of demonic influence (in the form of CDs which he pulled out and passed judgement on).

Yet, with all that she still allowed me to play DnD.  She didn't like it, but she allowed me to since it kept me out of trouble.


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## nedjer (May 14, 2011)

Many of the behaviours reported seem mediated by fears, which are our most easily pushed buttons. However, religion doesn't have a monopoly here, as our fears are continually manipulated, e.g. it's currently quite the thing for millions to consume pro-biotic sludge for breakfast.

For most people the gut populates itself with bacteria, so there's no obvious medical benefit and the ads carefully avoid making medical claims. However, the fear of not being one of the smiley, wholesome family, sunny breakfast team on the ad has people pouring this deliberately unappealing looking gunk down their throats.

Where this becomes all the more relevant to us is that these same politics of fear, linked to status, control and a sense of control, are built into every game session. The rules lawyer as prophet, the TPK as 'take your medicine', the misogynistic 'girls can't have the same strength', the newbie v's the grognard, and the 'my Edition genitals are bigger than the your Edition genitals'.

This traps many games in the meta-game and meta-world, as exemplified by new Monopoly, where it's 'fun' and 'win' to lower the value of your kid's property by dumping a sewage farm next to the kid's hotel.

Which in turn, perhaps, explains a lot of the fear of RPGs, as they are much, much more open to player choice, mediation, compromise and collaboration than regulation or rule-bound games. That doesn't mean we play to all those values all the time, (who could), but the potential to re-formulate, shape your own imaginative experience and 'cut lose' by making your own decisions is anathema to those seeking to control and confine.


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## TheAuldGrump (May 14, 2011)

Nar, D&D ain't Satanic, but Satan _does_ play D&D. One Hell of a DM, but the _worst_ rules lawyer that you can imagine on the rare occasion that he gets to be a player. And _don't_ let him use his own dice.

I played and ran my first D&D games in the basement of a local Unitarian church, and one of the players was a Catholic priest. By some lights you just don't get more damned than that.

The Auld Grump


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## CharlesRyan (May 16, 2011)

Back in 2004, when I was the Brand Manager for D&D, we conducted a huge PR campaign around the game's 30th anniversary. It was the first year in many that D&D had been given a real marketing budget, and it was the biggest the brand had had in--well, possibly ever. Certainly in the modern era.

As I said, PR was a major part of it, and the year spawned scores and scores of newspaper, magazine, and TV spots around D&D's 30th. I personally was interviewed dozens of times by journalists.

A big part of the PR talking plan was countering the negative stereotypes of D&D--in particular, the satanic angle. Everyone slated to be interviewed was thoroughly prepared to fend off that one.

You know how many times it came up, over something like 60 or so interviews I gave? Exactly zero.

No, I lie: Occasionally, the interviewer would say something like, "Do you remember back in the 80s, when some people thought D&D was satanic? Ha ha! Do you ever get that anymore?" The answer to which, truthfully, was "Not really."

The moral to the story? Yeah, there are still people out there who think D&D is satanic. But their numbers have been reduced to the same looney fringe that burns Harry Potter books. I feel sorry for anyone who runs afoul of them, but overall they're not really a factor any more.


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## Raven Crowking (May 16, 2011)

TarionzCousin said:


> I would definitely buy the cancelled "Downer, Part Two" book from Paizo.




The cancellation really was a Downer........


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## TheAuldGrump (May 16, 2011)

Elf Witch said:


> My stories were not even good Mary Sue's. My character in the stories didn't have delicate ankles that twist at just the right moment and all the male characters were not in love with her. Though she was a top notch pilot, engineer and handy with a phaser.
> 
> Personally I think a lot of what some of these people believe to be off the wall. Sometimes it seems they see satanism in everything. And you usually can't change their mind.
> 
> ...



It is, perhaps, almost worse when the beliefs aren't 'off the wall', but rather 'off the rack' - when belief does not truly enter the picture, but is instead a parroting in an effort to fit in. (I have not encountered this in regards to D&D in particular - more often it has been evolution.)

I was also raised Roman Catholic, and went to parochial school - that was how I got involved in wargaming and then D&D. One of the players was the priest who taught Comparative Religion.

I bumped into him twenty years later, he remembers the games I ran in a much kinder light than I do. (As a young priest he had a beard and a full head of hair, when I met him again both were gone. He recognized me, I didn't recognize him - the scary thing is that he knew me in my early teens... had I changed that little?)

My family was a different kind of crazy, but religion was not the basis for our madness. I am glad that you have survived your mum's insanity with your own sanity more or less intact. (Hey, being a little bit crazy is what keeps me sane....)

The Auld Grump


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## Traveller From Afar (May 16, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> Some of the teachers got up in front of the entire school body, which numbered about 400 students (I lived in a small town of a thousand people), about how Satanism turns people into horrible horrible monsters because they don't believe in God.



"These children are playing with dark and dangerous powers!"

"Well, what else are they supposed to do with them?"


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## Orius (May 17, 2011)

CharlesRyan said:


> The moral to the story? Yeah, there are still people out there who think D&D is satanic. But their numbers have been reduced to the same looney fringe that burns Harry Potter books. I feel sorry for anyone who runs afoul of them, but overall they're not really a factor any more.




This seems to be the case to me.  In the 80's the whole Satanism thing was a more generalized panic, more mainstream.  But that fell out of public awareness when Pulling and her allies were discredited, and I'm sure the various scandals that hit several prominent televangelists around the same time also hurt the Satanic panic stuff that was going on.  Then as well, the teens who were playing D&D in the early 80's grew up and had families and they knew from experience the whole "devil's game" was a load of bunk.

Yeah, there's still a fringe out there that thinks D&D is Satanic, but they're probably focused more on stuff like Harry Potter, MtG, possibly WoW and similar games since they're more popular.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 17, 2011)

Honestly, I think that even the original Satanic Panic was less "mainstream" and more "high-profile."

The difference?  The former means it was an actual concern for a large number of people (like natural disasters); the latter means it got a lot of press (like the Westboro Church's protests at funerals of dead servicemen).

I mean, we had a couple of trials involving the lyrics of metal bands, a few trials involving purported satanic rituals and some anti-D&D press.  And even though I've lived in the Bible Belt since 1982, went to a Catholic school and am a practicing Catholic, I can count the number of _personal_ issues with it beyond the level of some meaningful discussions is nil.  It's all the stuff we saw in the press: Jack Chick, a bad movie, and the occasional story like this one.  And these stories pop up how often?  1-3 times a year?


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## Diamond Cross (May 17, 2011)

Doesn't matter how often they pop up. 









 "You seem to find no tranquility in anything. You struggle against the  inevitable. You thrive on conflict. You're selfish, yet you value  loyalty. You're rash, quick to judge, slow to change. It's amazing  you've survived. Be that as it may, as species, we have no common  ground. You're too aggressive, too hostile, too militant. "


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 17, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> Doesn't matter how often they pop up.




Sure it does if you're trying to gauge how much of an issue this really is.  Yes, reports don't equal instances, but it's what we have.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (May 17, 2011)

So, uh ...



Diamond Cross said:


> People will use any means at their disposal to not change their minds. It doesn't matter what the words they use or how verbose they get, it's still a dismissal of something they don't want to believe or see.




A few years ago, I changed my mind on [a US political issue], and I now hold a belief that runs counter to the way I thought for many, many years and is counter to the wishes of my preferred political party.

Am I lying, or are you wrong?


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## Diamond Cross (May 17, 2011)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> So, uh ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I've already dropped this. I have nothing further to say on this matter so please drop this.


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## pawsplay (May 18, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Honestly, I think that even the original Satanic Panic was less "mainstream" and more "high-profile."
> 
> The difference?  The former means it was an actual concern for a large number of people (like natural disasters); the latter means it got a lot of press (like the Westboro Church's protests at funerals of dead servicemen).
> 
> I mean, we had a couple of trials involving the lyrics of metal bands, a few trials involving purported satanic rituals and some anti-D&D press.  And even though I've lived in the Bible Belt since 1982, went to a Catholic school and am a practicing Catholic, I can count the number of _personal_ issues with it beyond the level of some meaningful discussions is nil.  It's all the stuff we saw in the press: Jack Chick, a bad movie, and the occasional story like this one.  And these stories pop up how often?  1-3 times a year?




My experience was that it was thoroughly mainstream. My mom is not very religious, but her relatives and other people she knew kept egging her own. Plenty of kids opined to me that D&D was satanic. It wasn't quite as popular as believing Proctor & Gamble was Satanic, but it was close, I think, at least in my neck of the woods.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 18, 2011)

A question: were you in small-town or big city Bible Belt?

(I was- and am again- in the Dallas area.)


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## ExploderWizard (May 18, 2011)

Sadly, ignorance on an epic scale does not prevent parenthood. It has always been and shall ever be the case.


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## Rel (May 18, 2011)

ExploderWizard said:


> Sadly, ignorance on an epic scale does not prevent parenthood.




Sometimes quite the opposite!


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## Crazy Jerome (May 18, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> A question: were you in small-town or big city Bible Belt?
> 
> (I was- and am again- in the Dallas area.)




My experience, centered around North Alabama, in the same time frame you reported from, was that it was a "medium town" issue. Small towns, everyone knows everyone else, and this kind of stuff just can't stick long enough to become an issue. Fully half the kids at our school had at least dabbled in D&D, and while atypical for the area, the game was well known enough in other nearby small towns to innoculate against this particular brand of stupidity.

Ask the parents or teachers in our area, and you always got this kind of response: "A problem? No. So and so is doing it, and he or she is a good kid. If they are involved, it is not a problem. Our problem is teen pregnancy and underage people getting soused--not unrelated problems, either. I think an activity that is all pretend, using basic writing and math skills, is not an issue." 

You need a town big enough to accumulate a critical mass of stupid, but not so big that other masses can say, "Say what? You kidding me?" It wasn't an accident that the only times I encountered even a ghost of the issue, it was in Montgomery and Huntsville.


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## Diamond Cross (May 18, 2011)

ExploderWizard said:


> Sadly, ignorance on an epic scale does not prevent parenthood. It has always been and shall ever be the case.




This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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## TheAuldGrump (May 18, 2011)

I am kind of sad to say that I have much more often encountered the opposite - gamers acting like jerks to more religious folks on the grounds that 'they all hate us anyway', generally without much, if anything, by way of proof.

This includes a LARP where a werewolf player 'full mooned' a religious convention that was scheduled on the same campus as the LARP. The werewolf got booted, the religicos never even complained, and I am afraid that the incident may have confirmed some folks beliefs that 'gamers are jerks'. Not Satanists, not evil, jerks.

I have also met one (1) gamer who did claim to be a Satanist, though I think that the proper spelling may have been P-O-S-E-R. An excuse for sex, drugs, bad rock music, and antisocial behavior. (That was in 1981.) My opinion of the fellow was that he was a waste of carbon compounds.

The Auld Grump


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 19, 2011)

All hail Poser the Posarian!


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## pawsplay (May 19, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> A question: were you in small-town or big city Bible Belt?
> 
> (I was- and am again- in the Dallas area.)




Just outside Tulsa, OK, home of Oral Roberts University.


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## Camelot (May 19, 2011)

Looking at the book, I can see how a misunderstanding might occur in a set-minded mom.

"Okay, 'Heroes of Shadow.'  Let's see what this is about.  Table of Contents, blah-de-blah, too small for my weak eyes, let's turn the page...Oh, what a nice picture.  And the title...Into the Dark?  Subtitles are...Shadow Magic?  Soul Sacrifice?!  Waitaminute, let me read that.

*Soul Sacrifice*
Those who wish to connect to the innate power of the Shadowfell must forge a strong bond with the plane.  To do so requires nothing less than a shard of the supplicant's soul, given over to the unknown of death.  How this gruesome task is accomplished varies among practicioners.

WHAT?!"

Just reading that, you don't get the vibe that this is a fiction book.  It does seem sort of instructional.  In fact, if you have no idea you're reading a game book, and you ignore the "About This Book" sidebar on the first page (page 4), it's not until page 10 that it even mentions a "DM" and a "campaign," then mentions some game elements on page 11.  This is probably not even as far as this woman read, so I can see how in her view it looks like satanic instructions.

Of course, that makes it excellent writing in my view.  I hope her son can show her that it is actually just fiction for a game and in no way will influence his religious practices.


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## Traveller From Afar (May 19, 2011)

Camelot said:


> Just reading that, you don't get the vibe that this is a fiction book.  It does seem sort of instructional.



Maybe if one is inclined to see Jesus in one's scrambled eggs. Seriously, there is no place to hide from the kind of mindset that objects to exciting interactive fiction for religious reasons, they won't be satisfied until they have control of your very non fictional life.


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## Bedrockgames (May 19, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> My experience was that it was thoroughly mainstream. My mom is not very religious, but her relatives and other people she knew kept egging her own. Plenty of kids opined to me that D&D was satanic. It wasn't quite as popular as believing Proctor & Gamble was Satanic, but it was close, I think, at least in my neck of the woods.




I think in the 80s this did often boil down to where you lived. I was born in Massachusetts, but moved to Southern California to a very conservative christian community in 1984. Started playing D&D in about 86 I believe. While most people really didn't care, the episcopal church my parents attended was filled with people who thought it was satanic (and they convinced my mother that playing D&D would lead me to satan and PCP under the sewers). Basically had to stop gaming openly until we moved back to Boston where people really didn't care about that kind of stuff. 

The difference was literally night and day. Went from going to a church where people spoke in tongues and  banned movies like Willow, to a church (both episcopal mind you) where the priest encouraged D&D (heck his kids played) and movies like Willow were fine.


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## Camelot (May 19, 2011)

Traveller From Afar said:


> Maybe if one is inclined to see Jesus in one's scrambled eggs. Seriously, there is no place to hide from the kind of mindset that objects to exciting interactive fiction for religious reasons, they won't be satisfied until they have control of your very non fictional life.



I meant that it could be read that way if you 1) have no idea what D&D is, and maybe remember some stuff about it being satanic in the 80s, 2) are inclined to believe that children are weak-minded enough to turn to shadow worship, and 3) believe that worshipping Satan or 'the Shadowfell' is an unhealthy lifestyle.  Granted, this last one is probably true, but this woman clearly had misconceptions about D&D, about her son, and about her own parenting.  Later in the thread, he says that he talked to her and she agreed to let him continue playing as long as she could supervise for a while, so she isn't continually behaving like the first post makes her out to be.  She listened to reason, so her outburst was probably layered with other problems and what not.  I'm just saying she shouldn't be dismissed as a crazy who's wrong about everything; she's a mom who got worried about her kid and stress drove her over the edge.


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## Traveller From Afar (May 19, 2011)

Camelot said:


> 2) are inclined to believe that children are weak-minded enough to turn to shadow worship



Or are inclined to believe that "shadows", whatever they might be, exist to be worshipped in the first place.


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## Camelot (May 19, 2011)

Traveller From Afar said:


> Or are inclined to believe that "shadows", whatever they might be, exist to be worshipped in the first place.



That goes with my third point. Keep in mind that she doesn't have to believe they exist to believe it to be a problem. Even if she is completely nonreligious, it is reasonable to believe that when a person believes in shadow magic and starts worshiping weird pretend gods, they will turn to things like theft, maybe murder. However, thinking that this can stem from D&D is silly when you know what D&D is. She didn't.

If she does/did believe shadow magic exists, then its the same thing.


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## pawsplay (May 20, 2011)

Camelot said:


> Even if she is completely nonreligious, it is reasonable to believe that when a person believes in shadow magic and starts worshiping weird pretend gods, they will turn to things like theft, maybe murder.




Really, worshipping even less weird gods can lead to that kind of behavior. Soccer, too. Anything can be overdone.


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## Traveller From Afar (May 20, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> Soccer



Now there, there you can see the clanking scales of evil.


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## Diamond Cross (May 20, 2011)

> Soccer




You know if a man hits a woman they're more than likely to go to jail, right?


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## WHW4 (May 20, 2011)

The only thing that's clear is that she has a tenuous grasp on reality. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt by using the word "tenuous."


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 20, 2011)

Diamond Cross said:


> You know if a man hits a woman they're more than likely to go to jail, right?




Congratulations on your awful pun, sir.  Well done!


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## Orius (May 20, 2011)

Crazy Jerome said:


> My experience, centered around North Alabama, in the same time frame you reported from, was that it was a "medium town" issue. Small towns, everyone knows everyone else, and this kind of stuff just can't stick long enough to become an issue. Fully half the kids at our school had at least dabbled in D&D, and while atypical for the area, the game was well known enough in other nearby small towns to innoculate against this particular brand of stupidity.




Well I also think with small towns, if they're inclined to believe D&D is evil, then they'll all keep their kids away from it and tell them it's evil.  A lot of the cases people talk about are ones where the parents are ignorant of it until after the kids starts playing it, and the parent is told by someone else it's evil.


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## nedjer (May 22, 2011)

Done with this religious stuff after last night's non-Rapture. There I am all set for the Apocalypse bang on 6pm and does it arrive. Nope, not even half-an-hour late. Quite what I'm expected to do with the whopping great Ark sitting on the front lawn I don't know.

Perhaps Mr Rapture will cover my costs out of the $73 million the papers say he made from yesterday's non-event.


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## Raven Crowking (May 22, 2011)

nedjer said:


> Done with this religious stuff after last night's non-Rapture. There I am all set for the Apocalypse bang on 6pm and does it arrive. Nope, not even half-an-hour late. Quite what I'm expected to do with the whopping great Ark sitting on the front lawn I don't know.
> 
> Perhaps Mr Rapture will cover my costs out of the $73 million the papers say he made from yesterday's non-event.




What are you talking about?  The Rapture occurred.  Everyone who was worthy was taken.

That just happened to be an empty set!






RC


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## nedjer (May 22, 2011)

Raven Crowking said:


> What are you talking about?  The Rapture occurred.  Everyone who was worthy was taken.
> 
> That just happened to be an empty set!
> 
> ...




There must be like some kind of dreadful clerical error. I wasn't worthy. Next time I'll have to give them the other kidney and the contents of the kid's piggy bank. So unfair


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## nedjer (May 22, 2011)

"clerical error"

I wish! I'm majorly sub-optimal on Sunday mornings . . . and most other mornings


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## Jared Rascher (May 22, 2011)

This issue always trips about a thousand different thoughts in my head.  Back in the 80s, in my Sunday school class, we went through the "D&D is Satanic" lesson plan, and when it came up, some of us brought in our game books for the teachers to look at, and I even ran a session for people in front of the class.  

The teachers thought that while there might be some things in the game they weren't comfortable with, and that could be problematic for some players, the game itself was not intrinsically any more of a problem than anything else in modern pop culture.  So instead of damning the whole game, we shifted to discuss what we should thing about various topics addressed by the game.

One thing, up front, that tends to bother me is that the mother in this particular instance is dismissed out of hand because of how she reacts to her son's hobby.  We don't know the context of the relationship.  We don't know if she's an exemplar of a mother otherwise.  In fact, because we like the hobby she is intolerant of, the hobby becomes of paramount importance, and we dismiss the fact that she could possibly be concerned about her son.  

It actually reminds me of the Gygax charity hubub of a few years ago.  Because a charity was not sure if they should be affiliated publicly with D&D and roleplaying, I actually heard many people talking about hoping the charity went under.  But they don't know about the hobby.  They do have to be careful about their reputation, and is what they are doing  (feeding children in poverty stricken nations) really less important than proving how awesome our hobby is?  In fact, it probably would have  been a great time to show how "not evil" the people in the hobby are, but, in fact, we had a ton of people talking about how intolerant those people are, in a bit of irony.

Interestingly, when I first started playing D&D, yes, there were tons of people that were taking aim on D&D for religious reasons, but I don't think the furor would have been half of what it was if it wasn't for the pop-psyche purveyors that showed up on all of the talk shows, discussing how D&D causes psychotic breaks with reality.  And of course we had the wonderful Tom Hanks movie to help with that.  Which had no religious element to it, either, interestingly enough.

My only point is that the anti-D&D fervor was essentially a perfect storm of the advent of cable television, and the resultant ubiquity of talk shows, pop-psyche guests that wanted to get on television, and televangelists wanting a target to rail against.  Because cable television was a new novelty in a lot of the country, it appeared that "religions and psychological experts" agreed on the dangers of D&D.

This wasn't the case, but I think you have to look at it in context of what was happening, culturally, at the time.  

Was it wrong and unfair?  Sure it was.  Were people that got the wrong impression stupid or evil?  Not by a long shot.  The only real evil involved had to do with those people that knew they were lying about various things just to get on television  (remember the supposed TSR employee on the 700 club that talked about all of the company satanic rituals that no one could ever find a record of having worked at TSR?)

It was only about two years ago that a friend of my wife's was surprised that I played "that weird game" because she had never had her view of the game challenged since the early 80s.  Thankfully, she knows me well enough to know I'm screwed up from all sorts of things that have nothing to do with playing RPGs.  

I guess all I'm saying is that intolerance can be a two way street, and its probably better to engage then to marginalize.


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## Balesir (May 23, 2011)

In a n otherwise excellent post, KnightErrantJR made on point that I must disagree with:



KnightErrantJR said:


> Were people that got the wrong impression stupid or evil?  Not by a long shot.



OK, full disclosure, I probably wouldn't use the word "evil".  But stupidity and laziness certainly factor in (although they are by no means scarce in the world) and I do consider what those who acted, in any way, based on the claims that were made being true without first seeking evidence acted wrongly in doing so.

To accept that the interests and life-choices of another are bad without seeking clarity about the facts or circumstances of the case is to treat the views and judgement of that person as worthless.  If I were to say that Christians murder babies and worship evil without first understanding what Christians do believe and stand for it would be fundamentally wrong (and if I _did_ first get that understanding, it would be lying!)  It would be wrong because it would treat their beliefs and life-choices as subordinate to me spending a little time, effort and thought.  Those who just sucked up the "D&D is Satanic" stuff were guilty of exactly this; they treated the interests and judgement of those playing D&D as less important than spending a few minutes checking out what D&D was actually about.  Those that didn't care and remained agnostic on the issue were not so guilty - but those who took up a "D&D is evil" view and acted on it (spreading the "word" or verbally attacking D&D players) were (edit - actually, _are_).



KnightErrantJR said:


> I guess all I'm saying is that intolerance can be a two way street, and its probably better to engage then to marginalize.



Oh, _this_ I agree with 100%!


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## Umbran (May 23, 2011)

Balesir said:


> ...I do consider what those who acted, in any way, based on the claims that were made being true without first seeking evidence acted wrongly in doing so.




Er.  One major problem here - by and large, the folks who pick up the D&D is satanic" meme _are given evidence_ by someone they trust.  That evidence was generally inaccurate, or misinterpreted.

It is easy to say, "they should have looked for better evidence," but honestly, the world is such today that is it not physically possible for you to personally look up evidence for everything that may matter to you.  You must, by necessity, pick some sources of information and put trust in them.  

These folks put trust in the wrong places, sometimes to tragic effect.  But it isn't like they are operating in a way fundamentally different than anyone else.


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## Ariosto (May 23, 2011)

I guess that could depend on one's personal definition of _Satanic_, or perhaps of _evidence_.


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## BabyBackRibs (May 23, 2011)

Thank god I'm an atheist


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## Ariosto (May 23, 2011)

"Killing a shard of soul" would have been too vague a notion, I think, for my parents to worry about.

There were much more obvious elements of D&D to find objectionable back in the day, most chiefly:

- violence
- greed
- bigotry

... nor were those exceptions to the general run of popular culture in the 1970s-80s or today.

People of many cultures were even more concerned about movies and television and video games. Some game designers and thinkers took this regard for the influence of arcade games and their personal-computer offspring as indicative of their potential as forms of art. People worried about their effects because they _experienced_ the same kind of power as in literature, music and visual arts.

How much a child is "steeped in" material that takes for granted value systems that parents do not wish the child to take as normative can easily be a much bigger deal to them than it is to people -- especially older people -- who are just plain accustomed to that kind of environment.  

Might one not wonder _why_ if a young vegetarian from birth wants to be immersed in visualization of slaughter and sausages as entertainment? Might one not wonder _why_ if someone raised as a feminist wanted to spend many hours of formative years conforming to sexist stereotypes and objectification?

There may turn out to be quite thoughtful answers, and thought-provokingly more to the phenomenon -- and to the young person, too! -- than one might have suspected.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 23, 2011)

Now I want to play a vegetarian feminist with a sexist sausage.


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## TarionzCousin (May 24, 2011)

I think it's about time we brought "Satanic" back to D&D. 

Imagine a high school hallway full of loud, boisterous kids. In walks a herd of nerds with backpacks stocked with D&D books--and the hallway goes silent. The D&D nerds are cool, and they have an edge to them. Cheerleaders no longer want to date jocks; they want to date the Bad Boys, the D&D boys.


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## pawsplay (May 24, 2011)

Ariosto said:


> Might one not wonder _why_ if a young vegetarian from birth wants to be immersed in visualization of slaughter and sausages as entertainment? Might one not wonder _why_ if someone raised as a feminist wanted to spend many hours of formative years conforming to sexist stereotypes and objectification?




I just assume that as a matter of course children are frustratingly curious about things you wish they would leave alone, such as copperhead snakes, Barbie dolls, and daddy's R. Crumb art book. In my house, I have successfully waged a war for years against Barney and all his nauseating conformity. On the other hand, my six year old is obsessed with Bakugans. I don't really know what Bakugans are or why they are so cool, so I am going to give him some for Christmas and analyze the results.


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## Osgood (May 24, 2011)

It's sad, but utterly unsurprising that this sort of irrational prejudice still goes on.  I experienced it very hard in the 80's but I stood my ground... and while there are some relatives I haven't spoken too in 20 years, I know I made the right call.  

Interestingly enough, while I have maintained strong faith, I know more than a few of the relatives who cried Satanism back in the day have drifted from the faith.


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