# How do you determine Shop Inventory?



## Obergnom (Apr 30, 2010)

Title says it. How do you determine items available in a shop? 

Do you have a list for each shop? Do you roll a dice for each item after the players asked for it? Is everything available the players might want to buy? Or are a couple of sources 'common' and available while everything else is hard to get?


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## Crothian (Apr 30, 2010)

Inventory depends on what the shop is, where it is, and current economy factors of the city/country/area.  I don't do an inventory for every shop that would be ridiculous.  It all depends on what the PC wants.  I do use the rules of the game as guidelines but take into account other factors.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 30, 2010)

My answer pertains specifically to 4E:

I don't have shops. Crafters buy magic items for the residuum value (20%) and break it down into a more portable medium. Then they can craft any item a customer desires with the Enchant Magic Item ritual in one hour. The size of the community generally supports higher level crafters, but the occasional "wizard in a secluded tower" could pop up in game.

I also have a system in my newest campaign set up where a character can seek out a trade for an item he cannot use or doesn't want, but it's kind of random and the character probably won't get _exactly_ what he wants, but should at least get the general type of item he's looking for.


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## CleverNickName (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, back in the days of BECM, I would assign a Treasure Type to a particular shop and only roll for special or magical items.  Most shops would have Treasure Type N or O, but the higher-end shops in bigger cities might have Type E or F.  And in areas of the world where magic is common, like Minrothad or the Isle of Dawn, I wouldn't even bother with the percentile.

In 3.x, I did the same thing, except I gave each shop an Encounter Level, instead of a Treasure Type.

There are some pretty rad tools out there that will randomly generate treasure hoards for you, with the click of your mouse.  My favorite was written by James Buck, and is simply called "Treasure Generator."   Just type in the Encounter Level of the treasure you want, toggle off the coins and artwork, and click a few times.   Presto, a magic shop's inventory.


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## Bullgrit (Apr 30, 2010)

First off: Why in the world would you need to know the specific inventory of a specific shop? (Note the OP doesn't mention magic.) Playing out a shopping expedition through a town or city is taking role playing and world simulation down to a detailed level that I don't find entertaining.

I simply use the gold limit for the town/city. Everything within that limit is available, somewhere, somehow in that town/city. I don't worry about exactly what shop has what.

If I had a Player demand to know what's in the stock of a specific store, I'd ask, "What exactly are you looking for?" If they are looking for something particular, and they are in a store that might sell such (looking for a saddle in a leatherworker shop), I'd give a 50/50 chance of that item being right there.

Bullgrit


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## Obergnom (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, yeah, I meant magic items 

But inventory can be an issue with those, too. How many Healing Potions des the local temple have available?


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## Fifth Element (Apr 30, 2010)

Bullgrit said:


> First off: Why in the world would you need to know the specific inventory of a specific shop? (Note the OP doesn't mention magic.) Playing out a shopping expedition through a town or city is taking role playing and world simulation down to a detailed level that I don't find entertaining.



Why? Maybe because _they _do find it entertaining?


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## Bullgrit (Apr 30, 2010)

> How many Healing Potions des the local temple have available?



1d6.

Bullgrit


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## Fifth Element (Apr 30, 2010)

2d4-2.


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## howandwhy99 (Apr 30, 2010)

It's a production game mainly going on in the background, but one that can be addressed directly from a management or rulership position. 

It's somewhat standard for games of this type.  A basic resources by territory and trade, craftsman by product type, services by NPC profession, trading and trade route game.  Available goods and services are conglomerated by urban center whether that be a thorpe or a large city, though these groupings can be generated into webs of local commerce based upon population size. Prices increase or decrease according to availability and the overall base coin value fluctuates from changes across all urban centers within a single trading matrix.  

The specific products available in any given shop are undetermined until interacted with, sort of like unnamed NPC abilities.  But I do generate lists, if such places are within playability range for the PCs for a session.  Then that inventory list changes according to ongoing PC actions and the overall changes for that region and urban center.

It may sound complex, but the underlying rules are actually quite few.  They just carry through in each situation.  An overall list of products in a territory can be carved up with cost multipliers according to urban center and specific availability according to shop.  

Specifics are important only if the PCs can really reach such a place, so details are only filled in based on proximity.


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## haakon1 (May 1, 2010)

*Stores and Magic Shops in my campaign*

I'm running 3.5

Mundane goods:  In a sufficiently sized community without shortages, you can get anything within the gold piece limit, in limited quantities.  The only time the PC's have had any issues are:
1)  When they wanted to buy a herd of cattle in a large trading town.  They had to wait overnight as the broker filled their order from local farmers and traders.  And of course, they paid more than a peasant would.

2) When they wanted to buy 8 light warhorses in a small town in a country at war (where most warhorses had been requisitioned by the military already).  There was a teamster/horsedealer in the town, but he had no reason to have warhorses.  I had the teamster ask them to wait an hour; they ended up getting all of 6 of his light horses and 2 light warhorses provided as a loan by the local nobleman (who came to talk to the PC's and agreed to help out).

3) When they still wanted to get 6 light warhorses in a major town later, they talked to the military and got what they needed from them -- horsedealers again had nothing of that nature.

For *Magic Shops*, I have two in my campaign:

1) Major magic shop in a major town that's the country's capital and major trading crossroads.

-- The feel is similar to a small town FLGS.

-- The owner is a retired mid level sorcerer.

-- Stocked by random treasure rolls, with a specific inventory, including "substantial" gear.

-- Also BUYS from PC's, generally* for 80% of face value, or will sell on consignment (PC's eventually get 90%).  Payouts are limited by their capital to about 2500 gp at a time -- otherwise, you get store credit.

-- Does Identify item as a commonly purchased service.

-- Generally * sells at 100% of DMG value.

-- They always have at least ~12 potions, usually ~10 scrolls, and usually 0-2 of each other type of item, with most items being Minor in power. Also carries material components and a very rare, not from around here non-magical goods (sold to it by a cross-over campaign PC with Stargate d20 equipment).

-- The inventory changes most often only when one of the two PC parties sells something to them, or buys something.  Potions and scrolls are quickly replaced, more slow moving goods get a random determination on something similar coming into stock.  I also randomly add and delete from stock occasionally.

-- The inventory is NOT level appropriate to the party doing the shopping.  It is what it is.  The most expensive item is a Ring of Wizardy, the most ubiquitous are CLW potions, which are always in stock.

-- This magic store has a city-wide official monopoly, given to the Mage's Guild by the national ruler.  The country's official "creepy guy who runs adventuring parties" is in close contact with the magic store owner, getting intel on parties.  The place is protected by the Mage's Guild (who are investors) and off limits for the Thieves' Guild.  Woe betide anyone who tries to rob the place, as friendly adventurers, the national government, the Mage's Guild, and the Thieves' Guild would all seek to enforce the "don't rob the magic shop" norm.  The PC's don't know all this, but the players have discussed it probably has some kind of "protection".

* These are the rates for people who the magic shop owner knows and likes (including both parties of PC's).  An outsider or first time customer would get worse rates.  Also, buy prices for "Fast Moving Consumer Goods" -- Cure potions and Fireball scrolls in particular -- might be as high as 90%, if his inventory is low.

2) Small shop in a small town on the trade road.

-- Only sells (for 100% of DMG price) or Identifies items.

-- Only deals in potions and scrolls, with about 5 of each in stock at any given time.  I roll randomly on the Minor table when PC's ask.  Almost always 1st or 2nd level spells.

-- Can order potions or scrolls that aren't in stock (from the Magic Shop in the capital).  This takes about 1 week.

-- Again, it's not level appropriate for the party, necessarily, but it's a small town near a 1st level and a 2nd-3rd level dungeon.


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## LostSoul (May 1, 2010)

I was playing around with this (4E).

Basically I was going to set a random chance for a certain type of magic item vendor, ranging from a Herbalist to an Artificer.  The higher the level of the settlement (and therefore the riskier it is to be there!), the higher the chance of a more powerful vendor.

Once you determine the vendors in the settlement, you'd have to make a roll to find them (this is probably stupid).  Once you find them, the DM makes a reaction roll.  The reaction roll determines the vendor's disposition to the PCs, and they can try to influence him.

I never got as far as figuring out what was currently in stock.  I'd probably switch it up now and say that you have to request an item to be made, which takes some time.  

Hmm... that kind of sucks.  The easiest thing to do would be to see what the PC wants, have the vendor make a roll against the level of the item, and based on the DC the vendor hits it may be in stock or not.

Failure = not in stock or cursed; Easy = not in stock, but he knows where one is; Moderate = in stock; Hard = in stock, and with a special quality.

Each vendor had some quirks.  Here's the entry for Artificers:

Artificer (1d8+4): Artificers create powerful and permanent magic items.  They tend to work alone, but 30% have 1d4 apprentices of their level -2.


```
Source of Magical Power
Power Source		Notes	
Muse 			75% imprisoned against will
Planar Rift 		1-2 Feywild, 3-4 Shadowfell, 4-7 Elemental
			Chaos, 8 Astral Sea
Necrotic Energy		Causes nearby dead to spontaneously animate
			after 1d4 nights
Divine Font		50% Angel of Protection guards site
Component Vault		Value of components is 1/2 total monetary
			treasure of shop's level
Sacrificial Altar	Sacrifice = 100xvictim's level in components; 
			Drain = 50 per healing surge; 
			50% will buy sacrifices at 1/2 that value
Cache of Souls		1d3 souls trapped in soulcage; if only 1 soul is
			left, the Artificer will be looking for a new
			one (soul value = 10k gp)
Elemental Forge		1-50 imprisoned against will, 51-00 will work
			for food
Primordial Forge	Harnessing the power of a volcano, very 
			dangerous
Demon's Heart		Still beating

Guardians*
Roll					Artificer Level
1d6	Theme		5-6		7-9			10-12
1	constructs
2	infernal
3	undead
4	elemental
5	abyssal
6	rogue
* - note that the artificer has the rituals required to 
animate undead or constructs, summon elementals 
and demons, and bind devils.
```


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## Janx (May 1, 2010)

Why has at least one valid answer. 

Because the PCs intend to rob it.

Or because the PCs are browsing (just looking to be inspired as u might be at a game shop)

Because they are standing in the shop and want to know what they see.


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## Stoat (May 1, 2010)

The PC's contact Fat Jack, an affabele spined devil.  Jack takes half his payment and teleports away.  1d4+1 hours later, he teleports back with whatever the PC's ordered.

One time they asked him, "Wait, is this from Hell?"

He looked them right in the eye and answered, "No, of course not."


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## airwalkrr (May 1, 2010)

I more or less decide what is available on the spot, although I use the GP limit from the 3.5 DMG to guide me. If the GP limit of a town is 200 gp, for example, then anything under 200 gp is generally available with a little looking around. At most a Gather Information check DC 15 will lead them in the right direction of a vendor. If the players want to purchase more than one of a given object, then I divide the GP limit by the cost of the item to determine how many of a given item is available. For example, if the players wish to purchase potions of cure light wounds in the above community, they could purchase no more than four at a time (200/50 = 4). Supplies generally refresh on a weekly basis, so the party would have to wait seven more days to purchase more of the same potion.

Certain conditions may limit or increase availability. If the only mountain pass into a local village is cut off by an avalanche, it may be months before that village is able to renew its stores. If there is a festival attracting a lot of foreign and commercial interest, I might double or even triple the local GP limit (increasing the number of items available as well as the total cost of such items).

If the players ever want to purchase something worth more than 25,000 gp, I usually limit access a bit. They usually have to know someone with access to such things, and such an individual usually has to owe them a favor of some kind. You can't just go buy a dozen +5 swords. I also don't allow them to buy weapons or armor with just any old enhancement. You can't buy a +2 flaming ghost touch kukri of shocking burst. Only enhancements of +1 to +5 are available. Getting a named item (i.e. flametongue) or a weapon with a specific enhancement requires hiring a spellcaster specifically to craft the item or add the desired enhancement to a weapon or armor, which usually means the player has to wait a number of days for the weapon to be completed. Simple enhancements equivalent to +1 or +2 are easy to come by. Anything more generally requires a favor owed to the player character as above.


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## airwalkrr (May 1, 2010)

Another thing I have done in the past (but do not do anymore) is use the community modifiers in the 3.5 DMG p. 139 and make a roll to determine if the item was available. The DC = 10 + caster level of the item. If I rolled a success, the PCs could attempt to purchase a second item, and a third and a fourth, and so on, until I rolled a failure, at which point there were no more items of that type available and the PCs would have to wait a number of days (usually 1d6 - community modifier) for the item to be back in stock. So yea, if you were in a metropolis, that meant you could buy an infinite number of items with a caster level of 3 or lower. But you could always set a practical limit based on the GP limit of the community.


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## Celebrim (May 1, 2010)

"How do you determine items available in a shop?"

If it's a mundane item worth no more than a couple days pay for a common laborer, I make it simple and say they have it provided I think the town is big enough to support that sort of craftsman.  I only role-play out shopping expeditions for small groups, and even then only if I think the character is likely to be a reoccuring NPC.  Bigger groups require less non-essential roleplay because one of the cardinal sins of DMing is making your players wait too long for their turn.

If its something rare or expensive, I generally dice for it which in the case of something like this is often just a 'coin flip'. 

Sometimes if the item is just excessively rare or expensive (10000 gp opal, a trained griffon) I'll just say no in all but the biggest metropolis.

If its a magic item, its generally not available.  The main exception is potions.  If I think the town is big enough to have an alchemist, I generally allow the purchase of 2d4 random potions.  I also generally allow the purchase of 1d4 minor scrolls from whatever the big temple is in town provided the PC's have a favorable reputation.   

Pretty much anything can be ordered provided you find someone that can make it, you just have to be willing to wait on it.


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## darjr (May 1, 2010)

Hey, I just found this from Inkwell Ideas


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## Doug McCrae (May 1, 2010)

I see magic items as being like full plate or luxury jewellery - they are only crafted to order, there's no inventory. These items require such a huge amount of resources to create, they'd never be produced unless there's a buyer ready with the cash. 

Potions are a different matter as they are cheaper. Healing potions in particular would have a steady supply of customers. Bullgrit's 1d6 actually seems pretty reasonable to me.

Playing 2e in the early 90s in a low fantasy, Tolkien-influenced, long running campaign, the GM actually let us buy magic potions (and only potions) largely as a way to keep our gp total down. (Ale and whores never occurred to us.)


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## Jdvn1 (May 1, 2010)

I hand-wave the process. As long as the party has roughly the amount of gp/magic items expected by level (such that they're not over- or under-powered), I don't care what they have and how they got it.

Further, I think that determining the inventory of a magic item shop is a good way to screw over your characters. Not being able to buy what you want isn't fun, and not being able to buy what you need isn't nice.

On the other hand, if you want to rob the place or retrieve lost/stolen items, that link darjr provided is pretty neat, but I'd more likely just choose something roughly equivalent to an appropriate treasure bundle for the party.

I don't even think determining inventory even makes a game more realistic: 
Once you start to raise the question at all, you start to get questions like, "How do you make a living selling magic items?" Certainly, you can't sell what amounts to a bazooka in any sized city or town unless you're dealing with the black market unless you happen to have a very high level of magic in your setting. Even so, you'd have to sell them periodically to make a living. And how was an NPC able to get such a large investment to pay for his magic item shop? That's _very_ expensive, and not in the realm of most fantasy random Joes, it must be owned by a nobleman or something (even though one item brings the owner a lot of money, you have to think about his margin of profit--he had to acquire the item somehow--and he also has to eventually think about restocking his store). In which case, why is he in such a risky business? And if you do happen to have a very high level of magic in your setting, that'd definitely have some significant ramifications on the economy. Everyday craftsmen would have a guild or union that butts up with magic users, and the government may have price controls in place in order to protect jobs (as was the case in England during such a time) and outlaw some magic users' jobs.

And, you can probably think of more problems. This would make for an awfully complicated game.

But I digress. I would expect any magic item seller worth his salt would keep all of his items in a bag of holding--all you'd see in his shops would be a few bags lying around behind the counter. Your wares are easier to transport and it's easier to protect against theft.


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## Nifft (May 1, 2010)

If finding stuff is to be restricted, I prefer some kind of abstract availability check to determine success before describing the shopping expedition. If they fail, there is no appropriate shop open that day, or the goods aren't the sort of thing you find in shops.

If you check availability after you let them into the store, you'll risk playing out something like this:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0]YouTube - The Cheese Shop sketch, Monty Python[/ame]

Cheers, -- N


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## haakon1 (May 2, 2010)

Jdvn1 said:


> Further, I think that determining the inventory of a magic item shop is a good way to screw over your characters. Not being able to buy what you want isn't fun, and not being able to buy what you need isn't nice.




So by doing a magic shop with an inventory, I "screw over" my players, have an unfun game, and am being not nice to my players?  Could you turn down the wrongbadfun a wee bit?

My reason for being detailed on the magic shop is that my focus is on story.  By answering questions like: how does it function economically/make a profit and why isn't it robbed, I think I add to the "suspension of disbelief" in my campaign.  By having specific items -- including stuff PC's have sold to it -- I use it to connect the different parties and players that have played in my campaign.  And it's just plain interesting to see if the discards from one party get picked up by another.




Jdvn1 said:


> I don't even think determining inventory even makes a game more realistic:
> Once you start to raise the question at all, you start to get questions like, "How do you make a living selling magic items?" Certainly, you can't sell what amounts to a bazooka in any sized city or town unless you're dealing with the black market unless you happen to have a very high level of magic in your setting.




The bazooka analogy is a good starting point to think through these issues (if you want to in running a campaign).  How does a bazooka -- or the modern version, the RPG (rocket propelled grenade), get sold?

1) In places like Peshawar, they are sold by arms dealers in a bazaar, to and from tribal militias, terrorists, and people who want to protect themselves from the latter.  It's allowed because it's protected by the local tribes and payola to local authorities, and serves all sides.  Similar things happen with AK-47's in more countries.  This isn't all that different from a Points of Light setting, where anarchy and deathly threats surround most settlements.

2) There are secretive high volume, high end international illegal arms dealers.  See the movie "Lord of War" for a dramatization of this trade.  It's done because there's money in it, lots of money, selling unneeded arms to people with gems, drugs, or other resources, and the desire to sieze more of them.

3)  Official business.  Licensed arms manufacturers/dealers selling to the government and its friends -- but not it's enemies.

The main magic shop in my campaign is most like #3, though the players might not have precisely figured that out yet.




Jdvn1 said:


> Even so, you'd have to sell them periodically to make a living.




Right, that or provide services.  IMC, both magic shops do Identify spells and spell components too.  And their inventory has a certain amount of turnover, particulary for the Fast Moving Consumer Goods of a magic shop -- cure potions and low level scrolls.




Jdvn1 said:


> And how was an NPC able to get such a large investment to pay for his magic item shop? That's _very_ expensive, and not in the realm of most fantasy random Joes, it must be owned by a nobleman or something




Where the capital comes from is another good question in designing a magic shop.

My answer to this is that the limited capital of the shop DOESN'T belong to the sorcerer who runs it -- it belongs to the mage's guild, who own the guild monopoly on the trade, because of their cooperation with the government.




Jdvn1 said:


> Everyday craftsmen would have a guild or union that butts up with magic users, and the government may have price controls in place in order to protect jobs (as was the case in England during such a time) and outlaw some magic users' jobs.




Guilds, governments, monopolies -- all good medieval thoughts.  But not a reason NOT to think about this stuff.




Jdvn1 said:


> This would make for an awfully complicated game.




Nod.  I think logical, deeply immersive worlds where this sort of thing has been thought through and makes sense makes for fun gaming, rather than bad gaming.  If the players discover you've thought deeply about the magic shop, they may wonder about the reasons behind a lot of other things, which makes the game more exciting -- if they start asking "but WHY are the orcs here"/"how come the magic shop doesn't get robbed" instead of just assuming everything is "because I said so", things get more immersive and interesting, in my opinion.

Your mileage may vary.


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## Jdvn1 (May 2, 2010)

haakon1 said:


> So by doing a magic shop with an inventory, I "screw over" my players, have an unfun game, and am being not nice to my players?  Could you turn down the wrongbadfun a wee bit?



Like I said, "I think." I'm entitled to my opinion, right?


			
				haakon1 said:
			
		

> My reason for being detailed on the magic shop is that my focus is on story.  By answering questions like: how does it function economically/make a profit and why isn't it robbed, I think I add to the "suspension of disbelief" in my campaign.  By having specific items -- including stuff PC's have sold to it -- I use it to connect the different parties and players that have played in my campaign.  And it's just plain interesting to see if the discards from one party get picked up by another.



I have never seen such questions answered satisfactorily, killing suspension of disbelief for me. If your players are happy with your answers, that's great. Knowing much more about economics than most, I'm likely a bit pickier than most (and, I encourage my players to ask such questions too).


			
				haakon1 said:
			
		

> The bazooka analogy is a good starting point to think through these issues (if you want to in running a campaign).  How does a bazooka -- or the modern version, the RPG (rocket propelled grenade), get sold?
> 
> 1) In places like Peshawar, they are sold by arms dealers in a bazaar, to and from tribal militias, terrorists, and people who want to protect themselves from the latter.  It's allowed because it's protected by the local tribes and payola to local authorities, and serves all sides.  Similar things happen with AK-47's in more countries.  This isn't all that different from a Points of Light setting, where anarchy and deathly threats surround most settlements.
> 
> ...



Stuff like this is sold almost exclusively to governments, and militaristic organizations, and at high volumes. A group of 5 people buying one bazooka is likely amazingly rare or it never happens. Just for a group of 5 people to get the right contacts in the first place to find these people would be very difficult. And then, after that, selection is an issue. Chances are, your characters wouldn't be able to find what specific item they were looking for.

D&D has other problems that don't exist nowadays--creation of such items doesn't occur in mass quantities. So, how were cannons sold? 



			
				haakon1 said:
			
		

> Right, that or provide services.  IMC, both magic shops do Identify spells and spell components too.  And their inventory has a certain amount of turnover, particulary for the Fast Moving Consumer Goods of a magic shop -- cure potions and low level scrolls.



Not or. The initial investment in the items requires a return on the products. If a product isn't selling, you don't carry the product.

If all that sells is low level scrolls and potions, then you aren't going to carry the stuff that doesn't sell. This is why FLGSs stop selling books and start selling cards.



			
				haakon1 said:
			
		

> Where the capital comes from is another good question in designing a magic shop.
> 
> My answer to this is that the limited capital of the shop DOESN'T belong to the sorcerer who runs it -- it belongs to the mage's guild, who own the guild monopoly on the trade, because of their cooperation with the government.



This provides exactly the same problems. For _anyone_ to put up the money, there has to be a return on the money. The sale price of magic items compared to the creation price makes this likely impossible. You'd have to greatly increase prices which (in my opinion, again) screws over the players. If you want to go back to the bazooka analogy, note that their cost greatly exceeds their cost-to-make.



			
				haakon1 said:
			
		

> Guilds, governments, monopolies -- all good medieval thoughts.  But not a reason NOT to think about this stuff.



And things that can hurt suspension of disbelief regarding magic item shops and magic users. There are some things that fantasy stories just don't go into.



			
				haakon1 said:
			
		

> Nod.  I think logical, deeply immersive worlds where this sort of thing has been thought through and makes sense makes for fun gaming, rather than bad gaming.  If the players discover you've thought deeply about the magic shop, they may wonder about the reasons behind a lot of other things, which makes the game more exciting -- if they start asking "but WHY are the orcs here"/"how come the magic shop doesn't get robbed" instead of just assuming everything is "because I said so", things get more immersive and interesting, in my opinion.
> 
> Your mileage may vary.



I think that logical, deeply immersive worlds make for fun game--as a rule of thumb. But, the real world is more complicated that people care to learn, creating such a world would take advanced knowledge in a variety of fields, and it would still be flawed because not even experts can clearly explain everything much less emulate it.

For the record, I don't like or use the "because I said so" excuse either, and don't recommend people use it.


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## haakon1 (May 3, 2010)

Jdvn1 said:


> Stuff like this is sold almost exclusively to governments, and militaristic organizations, and at high volumes. A group of 5 people buying one bazooka is likely amazingly rare or it never happens.




In suburban America or most other countries, you're correct that civilians can't buy "bazookas".

But the idea that no small group anywhere can buy an RPG-7 is both not very imaginative and not very observant of the actual world we live in.

-- What are pirates off Somalia, bandits in Congo, tribal militias in Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, and foreign fighter volunteers in Iraq all carrying?  AK's and RPG-7s.  They got them somewhere.

Start thinking about WHERE, and you can start thinking about how a magic shop might actually work.

Admittedly, those guys are more like the villains than the heroes in most D&D campaigns, but the foreign fighters -- and "private military companies" who guard against them -- seen in many of these wars do bare some resemblance to PC adventurers.

If you start thinking and learning about societies where combat is part of everyday life -- whether now or in the past -- you can get some interesting ideas on your campaign world would function.



Jdvn1 said:


> For _anyone_ to put up the money, there has to be a return on the money. The sale price of magic items compared to the creation price makes this likely impossible.




In 3e and 3.5e, creation prices are 1/2 of sale prices.  That's a 100% profit margin.  Of course, you also have to give up XP, which does limit the size of the supply -- but it doesn't imply, as you would have it, that it would be "impossible" that anyone would make items for sale.  You also don't allow for the possibility of TRADE in existing magic items, for which there's obviously both supply and demand in every campaign.

And doesn't a limited supply -- from people who are willing to burn XP for profit, or trade-in existing magic items -- make a specific inventory MORE realistic than assuming anything the PC's want can be bought?

I get it if you just don't CARE about background, or this element of background, and want to magic wand away the stuff that's not relevant to the adventure.

What I don't get it that you think a D&D world is inherently inconsistent and "impossible".  I think it's quite possible -- and interesting -- to make it internally consistent and plausible.

And I don't get where your original hate for what I'd call "plausible world making" is coming from.  If you don't like it, fine, but why is it bad for other people to like it?




Jdvn1 said:


> I think that logical, deeply immersive worlds make for fun game--as a rule of thumb. But, the real world is more complicated that people care to learn, creating such a world would take advanced knowledge in a variety of fields, and it would still be flawed because not even experts can clearly explain everything much less emulate it.




I think most D&D players are intellectually curious and are quite capable of dealing with complex worlds that are very different from our lives in current day America.

I know my players are.  My players include a guy who served in the Peace Corps in two countries in Africa, two military history buffs, and a veteran who was involved in the Somalia War.  It's not a stretch for them to imagine a world where non-governmental fighters can buy RPG's, since two of them have actually been there.

Agreed, other players may not be able to find Somalia on a map, or know anything about real wars, or want anything resembling the real world in their campaigns . . . but that's why different campaign styles work for different groups.


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## Jdvn1 (May 3, 2010)

haakon1 said:


> In suburban America or most other countries, you're correct that civilians can't buy "bazookas".
> 
> But the idea that no small group anywhere can buy an RPG-7 is both not very imaginative and not very observant of the actual world we live in.
> 
> ...



Certainly, heroes and villains work very differently. But also, none of the sorts of organizations you mention are parties of 5. The ability to buy in bulk makes a big difference. Also, many of those organizations are notorious for stealing their supplies (also in bulk). Most heroes aren't going to do that.



			
				haakon1 said:
			
		

> In 3e and 3.5e, creation prices are 1/2 of sale prices.  That's a 100% profit margin.  Of course, you also have to give up XP, which does limit the size of the supply -- but it doesn't imply, as you would have it, that it would be "impossible" that anyone would make items for sale.  You also don't allow for the possibility of TRADE in existing magic items, for which there's obviously both supply and demand in every campaign.



When taking cost into account you have to consider the xp cost as well. Especially considering that a magic item creator in 3.x reduces his ability to create with each created item. Creating in bulk is indeed either impossible or near-impossible. Either way, it's certainly impractical.

And, of course I'm considering the possibility of trade. But, trading something essentially works the same way as purchasing something. You give a +2 sword in exchange for a certain amount of gold or its equivalent in other stuff. You're not going to make a trade for a loss in overall profit if you can help it, or you wouldn't make the initial investment to begin with (which is also true for the other guy in the trade).



			
				haakon1 said:
			
		

> And doesn't a limited supply -- from people who are willing to burn XP for profit, or trade-in existing magic items -- make a specific inventory MORE realistic than assuming anything the PC's want can be bought?



Certainly, a limited supply is more realistic than magically attaining anything you want. I agree with you there. The problem is with your assumption--realistically, anything the PCs want wouldn't be available. And it isn't fun not to be able to get the item you've been saving up money for. But, if you made your assumption true, then the whole discussion is moot--why come up with specific inventories if everything the PCs would ever want is available?

On the other hand, I assume that given some time, the PCs can find someone somewhere who has or can make any item they want and can afford, assuming I've done a decent job in keeping their wealth close to their expected wealth. As the players become more advanced, their connections are more diverse, and they're able to travel to where ever they need to get what they want or special order whatever they want. And special ordering stuff can happen in the background (since they just need to talk to a guy and wait a bit). I just assume the players spend a little time talking to the right people and am liberal about time frames and letting players handle the transactions on their own.

I think that's much more realistic, actually. There isn't a stock of items lying around someplace, you have to use your connections and find middlemen for special orders. And, if you know what you're doing (I assume my players are at least moderately careful), they'll be able to find people sympathetic to their cause or their gods' causes to take care of the otherwise possibly exorbitant price. If you think about it, this is how Achilles got his armor (via Hephaestus) and how Arthur got his sword (via the Lady of the Lake), but the characters are less likely to deal with immortal or divine beings except at the epic tier, but it might be a more relevant analogy since we're dealing with magic items.



			
				haakon1 said:
			
		

> I get it if you just don't CARE about background, or this element of background, and want to magic wand away the stuff that's not relevant to the adventure.
> 
> What I don't get it that you think a D&D world is inherently inconsistent and "impossible".  I think it's quite possible -- and interesting -- to make it internally consistent and plausible.
> 
> And I don't get where your original hate for what I'd call "plausible world making" is coming from.  If you don't like it, fine, but why is it bad for other people to like it?



The way I see it, I care too much about this element of background, hence I don't want it to kill the verisimilitude of the game. I've listed a bunch of reasons why such a system is implausible.

And, hate is a very strong word to use. I think limiting what your players can buy can screw them over (in other words, makes the game unnecessarily more difficult for them), which isn't fun.

But, _you_ used the term 'wrongbadfun.' I said, "If your players are happy ... that's great." And I stick by that sentiment--if you and your players are happy with your game and how you answer those questions, more power to you. Have fun. It isn't my style, but I appreciate that people have other styles.



			
				haakon1 said:
			
		

> I think most D&D players are intellectually curious and are quite capable of dealing with complex worlds that are very different from our lives in current day America.
> 
> I know my players are.  My players include a guy who served in the Peace Corps in two countries in Africa, two military history buffs, and a veteran who was involved in the Somalia War.  It's not a stretch for them to imagine a world where non-governmental fighters can buy RPG's, since two of them have actually been there.
> 
> Agreed, other players may not be able to find Somalia on a map, or know anything about real wars, or want anything resembling the real world in their campaigns . . . but that's why different campaign styles work for different groups.



That's great. I've gamed with military guys as well. That doesn't mean they're experts in economics, and certainly most D&D players--intellectually curious or not--also aren't experts in economics or economic history.


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## Nifft (May 3, 2010)

Jdvn1 said:


> (...) many of those organizations are notorious for stealing their supplies (also in bulk). Most heroes aren't going to do that.



 That's right! Heroes never steal.

Heroes loot, after stabbing.

Cheers, -- N


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## Celebrim (May 3, 2010)

Nifft said:


> That's right! Heroes never steal.
> 
> Heroes loot, after stabbing.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Only in about half of game worlds. 

In the other half, heroes go to Excaliburs-R-Us and stock up.  Because that's more economicly plausible in their game worlds.


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## Nifft (May 3, 2010)

Celebrim said:


> Only in about half of game worlds.
> 
> In the other half, heroes go to Excaliburs-R-Us and stock up.  Because that's more economicly plausible in their game worlds.



 In some gameworlds, like Shadowrun, the "heroes" do both.

"_Talismong-R-Us_", -- N


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## karlindel (May 4, 2010)

Normally, I determine shop inventory when it becomes important, rather than generating a list ahead of time.  I determine it based on the specifics of the shop (such as what kind of shop it is, size of the town, location factors such as access to trade routes, rarity of the item, demand for the item).  Note that demand for the item can run both ways, as certain items may have been bought out recently.  

I ask the PCs what they're looking for, then decide if I think the shop definitely will or won't have it, or give a chance to have it based on the factors above.  I then decide what kind of markup, if any, based on the shop owner's relationship with the PCs, current demand, etc.  

If the PCs ask me what's in the shop with no specific ideas on what they're looking for, I'll throw out a few random items that the shop would definitely have.


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## Neonchameleon (May 4, 2010)

IMC in 4e there are normally two types of magic shop: Expensive junk and crafters.  Expensive junk shops can get you what you need in a couple of hours (or possibly less if it's significantly below their level or consumable) but only if someone else has sold it.  But normally you commission the magic items, pay upfront (possibly to escrow or possibly just a 20% deposit), and come back 24 hours later.  Because what you are buying is to order and didn't exist until it was created.  (If you want an upgrade you need to leave the item to be upgraded with the crafter's front man).

Healing potions are much easier to find.  Because you don't need to be either borderline psychotic or have more money than most people will see in their lives to find one.


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