# Expert Classes - Rules Glossary



## OB1 (Sep 29, 2022)

A lot of interesting changes in here.  The one that immediately caught my eye was Exhaustion.  Now with 10 levels before death, with each level resulting in a -1 to all d20 tests.  I wonder if being knocked unconscious and failing death saving throws will now come with exhaustion levels.  

Also interesting that there is now a set DC to hide as an action, with specific conditions about when you can hide.


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 29, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Also interesting that there is now a set DC to hide as an action, with specific conditions about when you can hide.



When I saw this rule change I wondered exactly why it was added... but then I realized that it actually helps out the DM and their monsters.  Because now PCs can't just hide even with crappy Stealth checks because they lucked out and the monsters looking for them (usually with poor Perception bonuses) rolled poorly too to find them.

This is giving a floor that says to PCs "If you want to actually Hide, you have to do a somewhat good job at it to count."  Which I think is a good thing.  It also makes the Rogue's Reliable Talent have a better chance to do so something tangible, as now that free '10' on their roll means they will almost always succeed in reaching that floor.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 29, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Also interesting that there is now a set DC to hide as an action, with specific conditions about when you can hide.




Good catch. I like that it is no vs passive perception anymore (which is hopefully gone), but I don't like the fixed DC. I would love an "awareness defense" instead, even if it is just 12 + prof bonus.
I'd even more like 8 + prof bonus + int or dex, whicheveris better.
Maneuver defense would be 8 + prof bonus + dex or str.

Now we need a defense that is 8 + prof bonus + cha or con. Maybe some kind of resilience vs exhaustion.


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## OB1 (Sep 29, 2022)

Appreciate what they are trying to do with the Attitude and Influence section, but those DCs seem WAY low.  Like all the DCs listed need to be upped by 10 to make them reasonable.  It should be nearly impossible (DC30) to get a hostile creature do help you in any way or an indifferent creature to accept any kind of sacrifice or risk.


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## Amrûnril (Sep 29, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Appreciate what they are trying to do with the Attitude and Influence section, but those DCs seem WAY low.  Like all the DCs listed need to be upped by 10 to make them reasonable.  It should be nearly impossible (DC30) to get a hostile creature do help you in any way or an indifferent creature to accept any kind of sacrifice or risk.



I think fixed attitude categories and DCs are inevitably going to run into issues. Friendliness and hostility occur on a spectrum, as do levels of risk and sacrifice (and any number of additional personality traits could come into play). I'd say the game would be better off encouraging the DM to evaluate difficulty on a case by case basis, perhaps with some examples provided for guidance.


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## Vael (Sep 29, 2022)

Interaction though front loads that regardless of DC, this is not mind control and DM can override that no check is feasible.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 29, 2022)

The biggest notes to me:

*Stealth* - The loss of passive perception is very concerning to me. Its already extremely easy to hide in most cases, but now its going to require an actual action to find a hidden character? (which also means that in a normal hiding through the dungeon scenario, enemy sentries will have NO chance to find you, because you can't just take a search action over and over and over and over again non-stop, you would need a reason to do so).

On the flip side, the technical reading of the Hidden condition, is that once AN enemy finds you, you lose the condition. This means if one enemy sees you, ALL enemies see you.

*Influence Action -* This has potential but needs cleanup. For example, the hostile sections notes you need to make several hard checks to work a hostile creature....except with a simple DC 10 I can get a hostile monster to stop actively trying to kill me. Also the notes about shifting attitude one way or another needs some work.

*Allies now count as difficult terrain when moving through them *- Can be an important note in tight spaces.

*Guidance* - Wow, this is perfect! They solved everything, now the spell just works (no asking DM permission), but its scaled down and markedly lower in frequency. Perfect answer, really happy with this.

*No longer need a bonus action for TWF*


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 29, 2022)

Amrûnril said:


> I think fixed attitude categories and DCs are inevitably going to run into issues. Friendliness and hostility occur on a spectrum, as do levels of risk and sacrifice (and any number of additional personality traits could come into play). I'd say the game would be better off encouraging the DM to evaluate difficulty on a case by case basis, perhaps with some examples provided for guidance.




No. 20 is hard enough.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 29, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> No. 20 is hard enough.



Yeah its important to look at the specific text. A DC 20 on a hostile creature only gets them to things that involve no risk or sacrifice. You aren't getting them to hand over the keys kind of thing. The only one that really sticks out to me is the DC 10 letting you shut down attack mode, that seems a bit too easy.

And its not just about npcs, think about monsters. For example, classic animal hunting for food and wants to attack the party. DC 10 animal handling.... encounter over. Sure a DM can override that, but you quickly get into eyebrow raising territory, "wait so this murderous person I can talk down with a crazy easy check, but that murderous person I can't get to back down even on a 30?"


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## rules.mechanic (Sep 29, 2022)

I really like the new exhaustion rules. Similar to a variant I've used since @Horwath posted it here. Agree it seems to give lots of scope to pick up exhaustion from going to 0 HP or failing death throws (which we certainly do) but I'd like to also see you being able to buy Inspiration (i.e. reroll any failed D20 test) or Hit Dice with exhaustion - similar the Heroic Effort / Heroic Exertion homebrew we currently use: Tome of Variance


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## rules.mechanic (Sep 29, 2022)

Is "surprised" gone? Seems to have been replaced by advantage/disadvantage on initiative rolls


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## billd91 (Sep 29, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> *Allies now count as difficult terrain when moving through them *- Can be an important note in tight spaces.



I don't believe that's actually a change.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 29, 2022)

OB1 said:


> A lot of interesting changes in here.  The one that immediately caught my eye was Exhaustion.  Now with 10 levels before death, with each level resulting in a -1 to all d20 tests.  I wonder if being knocked unconscious and failing death saving throws will now come with exhaustion levels.
> 
> Also interesting that there is now a set DC to hide as an action, with specific conditions about when you can hide.



They may also buff certain survival conditions. For example, not getting proper food and water might give you 3 exhaustion or something, to give it proper sting. Its also easy to dial up or down for a given game. Super heroic game, its 1 exhaustion. Super survival game, its 5, etc.


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## overgeeked (Sep 29, 2022)

OB1 said:


> I wonder if being knocked unconscious and failing death saving throws will now come with exhaustion levels.



That's how I was starting to run things before my game stopped. It makes sense that there's some actual, lasting consequence of nearly dying. If exhaustion is going to be expanded and less punishing (no movement penalties, etc), then it seems like a natural use of the subsystem.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 29, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Appreciate what they are trying to do with the Attitude and Influence section, but those DCs seem WAY low.  Like all the DCs listed need to be upped by 10 to make them reasonable.  It should be nearly impossible (DC30) to get a hostile creature do help you in any way or an indifferent creature to accept any kind of sacrifice or risk.



I'd agree if it was mind control, and/or the DM had to absolutely do it no matter what, but I strongly disagree given the extensive language around how that works. If it would be that hard, the DM could already rule it out.


Stalker0 said:


> *Influence Action -* This has potential but needs cleanup. For example, the hostile sections notes you need to make several hard checks to work a hostile creature....except with a simple DC 10 I can get a hostile monster to stop actively trying to kill me. Also the notes about shifting attitude one way or another needs some work.



I don't think you can do that. If you're already in combat unless the DM thinks it's in the monster's interest to stop, the text is very clear that they should simply disallow it. A hostile animal makes complete sense, frankly. DC10 is about right for convincing an animal to not attack with animal handling. This assumes it's merely "hostile", which let's be real, is different to "in combat". Like with a bear or a mountain lion, if you spot it before it attacks, it's often fairly easy to drive it away. But if it's snuck up on you and is trying to kill you by the time you notice it, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder.

They do kind of need some Skill Challenge-type rules though.


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## rules.mechanic (Sep 29, 2022)

Why does Magic Action say 1 minute - are we going back to the 1 minute rounds of earlier D&D versions?
"If you cast a Spell that has a casting time of 1
minute or longer, you must take the Magic
Action on each turn of that casting, and you must
maintain Concentration while you do so."


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## rooneg (Sep 29, 2022)

rules.mechanic said:


> Why does Magic Action say 1 minute - are we going back to the 1 minute rounds of earlier D&D versions?
> "If you cast a Spell that has a casting time of 1
> minute or longer, you must take the Magic
> Action on each turn of that casting, and you must
> maintain Concentration while you do so."



No, that's just how things should work for spells that take longer than a round to cast.


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## rules.mechanic (Sep 29, 2022)

rooneg said:


> No, that's just how things should work for spells that take longer than a round to cast.



Ah, because it's the next casting duration step up from 1 round. Good


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 29, 2022)

rules.mechanic said:


> Is "surprised" gone? Seems to have been replaced by advantage/disadvantage on initiative rolls



Yep. That's what it looks like. About time if so, because getting a free round to do whatever made things a bit ridiculous.

I think there was something in playtest1 that implied this... At least my reaction was 'ah, confirmed' when I saw that in the glossary.


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## OB1 (Sep 29, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Yeah its important to look at the specific text. A DC 20 on a hostile creature only gets them to things that involve no risk or sacrifice. You aren't getting them to hand over the keys kind of thing. The only one that really sticks out to me is the DC 10 letting you shut down attack mode, that seems a bit too easy.
> 
> And its not just about npcs, think about monsters. For example, classic animal hunting for food and wants to attack the party. DC 10 animal handling.... encounter over. Sure a DM can override that, but you quickly get into eyebrow raising territory, "wait so this murderous person I can talk down with a crazy easy check, but that murderous person I can't get to back down even on a 30?"



Yeah, thinking about it a bit more, I think the Hostile DC10 response needs a bit of a tweak "The creature offers no help but does no harm as long as no risks or sacrifices are involved."  So if you stumble into a Bullet nest or the mess hall of an enemy pixie encampment, the creatures might be hostile to you on sight.  If you just want to go back the way you came a DC10 check might keep them from attacking, but if you want to pass through the area unharmed you would need a DC20.  But if the Bullet is starving or the pixies have your description and are under orders to kill you on sight, not attacking would require a sacrifice (food for the Bullet, the ire of their bosses for the pixies) and thus no check would work.


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## DeviousQuail (Sep 29, 2022)

I agree, the Influence action is a nice addition and I know a lot of people wanted a better framework for stuff like that. Using the word 'hostile' is the only problem. I can see that being what you call a creature that wants to attack you on sight or what you call a creature that opposes you but isn't necessarily attacking you. People will have to get used to it or maybe WotC finds a thesaurus and picks something else.


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 29, 2022)

Unfriendly?


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## DeviousQuail (Sep 29, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> Unfriendly?



The internet just suggested 'at loggerheads' so that's what I'll be using.


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## Charlaquin (Sep 29, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> I agree, the Influence action is a nice addition and I know a lot of people wanted a better framework for stuff like that. Using the word 'hostile' is the only problem. I can see that being what you call a creature that wants to attack you on sight or what you call a creature that opposes you but isn't necessarily attacking you. People will have to get used to it or maybe WotC finds a thesaurus and picks something else.



It’s just a reframing of the rules for social interactions that already exist in the 2014 DMG (attitudes, including hostile, among them).


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## Ancalagon (Sep 29, 2022)

So about shield and armor and being not proficient:

"If    you    equip a    Shield    and    lack    Armor Training with    Shields,    you    don’t    gain    the    Armor    Class     bonus    of    the    Shield."

I believe this is new.  I'll note that I like it, because I _have_ trained with a shield and yup, if you don't know what you are doing it totally isn't worth it


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## Baumi (Sep 29, 2022)

Some interesting bits...

Jump is a Strenght (Acrobatics or Athletics) check. I don't think I have ever seen an official Check that allows you two different Skills and both with the same Attribute, where one Skill is linked to another (Acrobatics to Dex).

Heroic Inspiration gives you Advantage .. but AFTER you rolled the d20.

Long Rest heals ALL Hit Dice now.


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## Minigiant (Sep 29, 2022)

Wait.​
Can you not jump more than 5ft without a Jump action now?


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 29, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Can you not jump more than 5ft without a Jump action now?



That's what it's saying. And your jumping distance has a 19ft variance any time you try it.


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## TwoSix (Sep 30, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Wait.​
> Can you not jump more than 5ft without a Jump action now?



That's my reading, yes.


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## DeviousQuail (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> That's what it's saying. And your jumping distance has a 19ft variance any time you try it.



It's strange because I don't think I've ever come across negative feedback with the jump rules in 5e. At most an issue with the numbers but that's a minor thing. It's an odd thing to change. Perhaps it was a change necessitated by other rule changes that we'll see later?

If they do keep this I would prefer you get half distance on a fail. Have at least some benefit for people who invest in Strength, Athletics, and Acrobatics.


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## Krachek (Sep 30, 2022)

Long rest restore all hit dice.


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## HammerMan (Sep 30, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Also interesting that there is now a set DC to hide as an action, with specific conditions about when you can hide.



I missed that.


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## Horwath (Sep 30, 2022)

Krachek said:


> Long rest restore all hit dice.



we played it that way from 2014


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

Krachek said:


> Long rest restore all hit dice.



This seriously is the only sensible approach. I cannot believe they went 'you heal to full' followed by 'no not like that' in the first place...


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## jasper (Sep 30, 2022)

Dislike the Hide Action. I think the solution of rogues hiding from everything would be increase Monsters Passive Perception.


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## Krachek (Sep 30, 2022)

Horwath said:


> we played it that way from 2014



Nice move you save ten years!


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

I just realized, we finally get an actual Hidden condition listed.


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## Krachek (Sep 30, 2022)

jasper said:


> Dislike the Hide Action. I think the solution of rogues hiding from everything would be increase Monsters Passive Perception.



I like it, it gives a little vintage feeling of ADnD.


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## Krachek (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> This seriously is the only sensible approach. I cannot believe they went 'you heal to full' followed by 'no not like that' in the first place...



I remember Crawford  praising the 2014 crosbow expert feat that could be used by caster, and now they do the opposite, making it only for crosbow user.


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## rooneg (Sep 30, 2022)

Krachek said:


> I remember Crawford  praising the 2014 crosbow expert feat that could be used by caster, and now they do the opposite, making it only for crosbow user.



Yeah, they used to think “this has something for everyone” was a good thing, but it turns out basically all the players were like “why do I need to spend a whole feat when I only want 1/4 of its features?”


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

And why would I as a caster care about removing disadvantage from shooting with someone next to me, when almost every spell I want to use targets a save and doesn't care anyway...


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## jmartkdr2 (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> And why would I as a caster care about removing disadvantage from shooting with someone next to me, when almost every spell I want to use targets a save and doesn't care anyway...



Clearly you're not a warlock.

(It's basically a must-have feat for warlocks now.)


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

jmartkdr2 said:


> Clearly you're not a warlock.
> 
> (It's basically a must-have feat for warlocks now.)



You mean Telekinetic is... Well, OneDnD doesn't have it yet, I guess.


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## tetrasodium (Sep 30, 2022)

I'm giving d20 tests a spoiler of it's own because they come up a lot.  There's a lot to like but a few rough edges that are going to be really rough at the table


Spoiler: d20 tests- more good than bad



Going to inspiration on a 1 & 20 is just a 20 at this level is a great shift.  As a GM it really sucks when a player rolls one or many 1's on a bad night since there's little I can do without being obvious that the hand of god is reaching down to help bob out when I didn't do that for alice or Cindy Dave on their bad nights simply because they didn't make an issue of it or whatever.  This nicely gives me a "_well hey it gave you inspiration at least!_" card I can use to take out the sting when bob is making a note of it. 
* The bad parts are bad though*

*Ability check*: These are now explicit that they require an action. 
As a GM that's a great shift because I often find players get salty when I say "sure you can, do you want to use your action for that?" when they ask to do stuff mid fight. 
"_The DM determines the Difficulty Class of an Ability Check *and [the DM] can override a DC specified in the rule*_*s*" This rider in the ability check rule is a lot bigger than it might look at first glance & it's bigger in _interesting_ ways.  Not only can the DM now bypass the check they can look at a dc x check & say that it's much less _or_ choose to declare that it's much higher simply because the group is higher level & facing challenges that are no longer the now trivial ones they once faced.
There is a table of typical DCs of very easy to nearly impossible with a new task difficulty every 5 up or down the ladder.  Having targets is good
With that said the chart needs to go beyond 30 with a 35 or 35&40.  I say that because +5 from an attribute +8/10/12 from expertise is +13/+15/+17 to a roll & we have not even added magic items or any sorts of circumstance type bonuses yet.  "nearly impossible" doesn't seem so impossible
when you need an 18 from 2d20k1+1d4+?? with advantage guidance & some kind of magic item/potion/hypothetical circumstance boost_(circumstance from who knows mechanic/magic item).  *A*_*lready the help action & guidance alone brings that down to 14-17 on a d20 roll made with advantage.* If the help action & the guidance cantrip can bring "nearly impossible" down to just shy of medium or hard it's not exactly "_nearly_ impossible".  I don't mind overriding the DCs but I'd like a little headroom even if it's the addition of a "31+ improbable/35+ extremely improbable" or something



*"attack roll"*: weirdly this says "Attack roll" but the attack roll is a subsection of the attack _action_.  This should probably be changed to attack action. 
the annoying free action of weapon (un)equip is now gone with the _almost_ wonderfully explicit "_You can equip *or* unequip one Weapon before or after any attack you make as part of this action_".  It's a nice clarification but the wording is lacking
The inclusion of that underlined "any" clears up any issues with drawing thrown weapons  when multiple attacks are available but the solution for thrown weapons needs to be attached to thrown weapons not here.  As worded it allows a cartoonish situation like a 3 attack having PC to draw a sword >strike>drop a sword & draw a mace>strike>drop mace & draw a different sword>strike.  the PC is only drawing or sheathing one weapon each time but as written  they are allowed to do it on "_any_" of their attacks.  The wording should be "one" with a loophole for thrown weapons added to thrown weapons or simply omitting " any_ attack you make as part of_" & doing the thrown weapon fix on thrown weapons.

*saving throw*: not defined in glossary as far as I can tell





The vast majority of the rules in the glossary are in this but quite a few good things also have rough edges


Spoiler: The Mostly-Good




*Armor Training*: /new term for armor proficiency, similar can't cast spells & disadvantage on d20 tests but now it's nicely noted in the glossary rather than tucked away in a footnote on page 144.  Great change
*Artisan tools*: I think they may have been defined in the last packet & they seem the same.  Having a broad category for all tools makes it easier for me as a GM since there's less question if a given tool applies to a rule that interacts with artisan's tools... _especially_ if I want a spell magic item or whatever that interacts with them as a group.
*Attack roll*:  It's defined, that's good. No more monsters can't grit, that's great.  I'm mighty curious to see what recharge abilities wotc was excited about & thought were going to need no more crits from the GM & largely because if those abilities are the recharge 5-6 ones already present on a tiny number of monsters it's terrifying that someone thought it was justified  given the extreme PC survivability.
*Arcane/Divine/Primal spell*: It's nice having this defined
*[NEW] Barkskin Spell*: This is great (_I think?)_!It's touch concentration (still)1hr duration & prof bonus THP every round to the target  Even better is that with higher level spell slots it allows extra targets instead of duration.
1 hour is a good duration for a buff meant to last longer than one combat since it gives a bit of time pressure but still allows some dillydallying to explore.  
_Unfortunately_ as a concentration spell it still limits the use & will often exempt itself from any situation where it might exert time pressure if it's not THE best concentration spell.  *There is no reason for concentration on prof bonus Thp/round to one targe*t.

*Blindsight*: Automatically see hidden & invisible creatures not with total cover.... I _hope_ that this is limited to extremely short ranges like 5 or 10 feet & not a 360degree radar.  Level 15 ranger can get it 30 feet & I'm not jazzed about it but assume there are going to be some readily available countermeasures by then so plonk this under goodish
*Climb speed*: I like that it's spelled out & that thanks to saying that it can be used "_any time situation in which your speed is usable_" So I as a GM don't need to make judgement calls on if someone with climbspeed can dash or whatever.  
I wonder if the same applies to things like barbarian/monk fast movement also boosting this?  If so it should specify that it only boosts one type of movement per round or it could bump all types

*Dash*: I like that it points to the rules for the move action & just says you can do a second one of them since it really cuts down on situations where the GM could run into unexpected loopholes & stuff.
*Gaming Set & musical instrument*: It's a thing.
*Grappled*: I still like the new mechanic but have to wonder why the grappler can drag or carry the grappled but not the other way around. 
Why is it that Bob can grapple a giant or dragon & drag or carry it but the giant or dragon can't drag or carry the puny human they could juggle? 

*Guidance*: I love this change of reaction to a failed check & limited to a once per "long" rest.  As a GM who usually has big groups I'm a bit sick of hearing "and I cast guidance" every time someone does basically almost anything so can't wait for this.
*Help*: This breaks down into skillchecks & attack rolls.  
The skill check help now requires both top be proficient in the same skill & notes that the helper needs to be close enough for the helpee to be assisted.  I expect this too will cut down on the "and I help" where I as the GM need to repeatedly loop through tiresome "and... _how_ does Bob help Alice on that?" prompted group brainstorming sessions over a quantum action.
On the attack roll *I wish this had some actual requirement*.  I know that theoretically it costs an action, but in play at the table it costs a bonus action for bob to tell his familiar to distract anything Alice is fighting every round & the familiar has almost no chance of hitting anything ever while bob might not even have other bonus actions. 

"Heroic inspiration": "(also called inspiration)"... _hmmmm_.... Will we see _other_ forms of inspiration?
Hidden:  Pretty standard stuff.  You are concealed, have advantage on initiative & attacks against you are at disadvantage
_Hide_: I love that it includes the stipulation of heavily obscured/3/4 cover. as a GM I'm tired of pointing out "It's an empty hallway" & similar only to get "but I'm proficient & rolled a 27!".  Great change
*Incapacitated*:  Same as before but it breaks concentration & you can't speak.  
Also you roll initiative with disadvantage but that *seems like an extreme edge case unless fear auras & such start causing incapacitated*... That would be _iiinnnnterrrestinnng_ & make a lot of sense if it were the case.

*Invisible*: It's properly defined as a condition now 
Unseeable should include something like "when you become invisible" or this becomes a little too good... _especially _as long as there are familiars that can at will become invisible or we will have warlock imps robbing everything blind with impunity.

*Jump*: This is a dramatic improvement.  The old jump rules were worse than useless  in ways that made 3.5 grapple rules seem well designed.  Having thus in a glossary also means that we can quickly look them up when we need to find a rule we may have forgotten like this too.  Needing to use an action in order to jump more than 5 feet is a good change since it could be clearing caltrops spike pits pressure plates or things like a grease spell. 
*Long rest*: I place this here under hopeful optimism.  This still includes the any combat interrupts line from the last playtest but also now recovers a bold all hp all hd hp max recover & ability scores recovered (to normal).    
That _seems_ like it might be too good at first glance  *but it does not mention recovering exertion. *_if _that is because recovering exertion is intended to be a very nontrivial thing then great.

*Magic*: I think this used to be called cast a spell with some vague generalities.  I like that it's a full fledged [standard] action now since things can interact with the magic action  without having too many loopholes
*Climbing & swimming*:  It's defined as a subsection of the entirely unacceptable move entry & using your standard speed for it costs an extra foot per foot of movement.  This part at least is fine 
*Special speeds*:  Fairly straightforward with the wonderful addition of only allowing one type of movement speed on a turn.  The old way was a disaster & always seemed to go about as well as saying "actually no grapple works like this..." back in 3.5
*Ritual spellcasting*: Now it only needs to be prepared & no ritual caster feature is needed.  I wonder if the wizard will have a feature or if the entire spellbook will count as prepared at all times... _o_o_o_o_o_o.., This could get _innnnnterrrestinnng_.
*Search*: This actually covers a lot more than expected with a table listing example searches for insight medicine perception & survival.  I like having the action carved out as an action so I as a gm can just be the exasperated one pointing out the presence of the search action when everyone goes silent or starts trying quantum "can I..." actions.
*Short sword*: I had to double check  TIL that apparently it was a martial weapon before & now it's a simple weapon, maybe I'm not alone in that.
*Slowed*: use an extra foot of movement per foot moved  disadvantage on dex saves & advantage on attacks made against you.  Having this as a condition rather than a rider on everything that imposes it is a great change
*Study*: much like the search action but for arcana/nature/history/investigation/religion.  Notably it explicitly mentions "study your memory" among other things like a book an object a creature & so on, I _love_ this as a gm. "That would be the study action" is a lot less hostile for the gm to say than "would you like to use your action" & if the creature is right there to see the bar for obvious stuff like resistances & maybe weak saves might even be reasonably low even for a rare never before seen by that PC creature.
*Swim speed*:  Not much to say, it's defined
*Teleportation*: O.M.G.  It's a move speed.  I can't wait to see what monsters have a teleportation speed & what that speed is
Unarmed strike:  seems pretty similar to the last packet & I liked it then. I still like it



Oh good god there are some show stoppers & even something I'd class as a critica rules exploit of* similar or worse severity as things like the old locate city bomb & peasant railguns*.


Spoiler: The Ugly




*Attack*:  I covered some problems with this up in the d20 tests section & they are not insignificant ones.  I really dislike the moving between attacks already present in 5e though, ironically this makes it worse by explicitly allowing it rather than allowing it by omission.  
When bob with 40ft move speed can cut down monster A>move 15 feet to monster B>cut down monster B> move 25 feet to cut down monster C & cut it down it introduces the problem where nobody cares what the battlefield looks like & now because it's explicitly allowed I can't easily limit it as a GM.  Move 5 feet after each attack sure but not up to remaining movement speed.

*Difficult terrain*: At first glance this _seems _ok but it has a big catch.  
"A space is Difficult Terrain for a creature if the space contains any of the following:    1Creature that isn’t Tiny 2Furniture that is Small or larger" Lemme get this straight... the BBEG is behind some mooks who are behind some piled up furniture &* the PCs can cross both with a mere 20 feet of move speed *_and_ at least with how disengage works from the 2014 rules they can move the rest of their movement without provoking an opportunity attack?... I kinda feel like this reading that. Before anyone says "let your PCs be awesome",* that works the same way when the Fire Giant or Tarrasque wants to walk past the warriors to geek the mage* 
I _like_ the inclusion of snow & what are effectively deep puddles but that first part is just completely unworkable as written.


*Exhaustion 1-10*: It doesn't specify how you get these.  If it's the same as levelup's fatigue where you get  a point each time you go down & pretty much no other circumstances .  Yes it subtracts from spell sae dc & d20 tests but if a mere rest can clear it  that's not so big of a penalty in big groups.
I'm skeptical if this will matter at all unless it's almost impossible to clear (ie your level number of weeks recovering in a haven or your next levelup).    *I hope more details clarify recovery*.
*Expertise*:  The glossary wording doesn't seem notably different from the 2014 wording but I _hate_ the wording on all three instances of expertise "_You gain Expertise in two of your Skill Proficiencies of your choice._" Unless warrior mage & priest are going to have an expertise too they should be limited to _class _skills not whatever can be pulled from background or race.  Even _if_ the other class groups are going to have an expertise, they should all have it restricted exclusively to skills the class can grant.  That goes double if the "_ohhhh look at thaaaat my race/class/background offers a duplicate skill I don't want so obviously I'm going to choose this other skill I want even though none of them offer it_" loophole is going to remain
*Fly speed: *Good to be defined but I wish this included a line that noted how there was a minimum of 10 feet up & down to be used before you qualify as flying or being on the ground.
I say 10 feet because that's when fall damage starts & going up 5 feet then moving your speed only to fall 5 feet when the effect ends is just metagaming extra speed.  As a GM I'm a bit sick of needing to tell players that flight is not ground level hover so needs vertical travel only to get salty players when they have to "waste" move speed taking flight.

*Influence*: It's great that rules for influencing how NPCs see you but um... 
seriously? *dc10* to influence a _hostile_ creature to "offer no help but does no harm"? For a charisma(or maybe wis) leaning build with proficiency that's almost "don't roll a 1 or 2" for guaranteed success. It seems that "hostile" is the wrong choice of word & there needs to be an "aggressive" or "enraged" type disposition.

*Light [weapon property]*: I like that it's defined & _think_ I even like the way it works, but the example should be with a multiattack/extra attack character to avoid primary & offhand attacks each of a character's 2/3/4 attacks.  Alternately the wording is off in noting the attack action if that is intended to be allowed.
*Move*: pretty much what you'd expect  but I liked that the dash action & possibly others reference this instead of repeating what it does.
 Breaking up your move being explicitly allowed as written is a terrible thing  made even worse by the difficult terrain inclusion of furniture & other creatures though.   As worded it allows a cartoonish hypothetical situation like a 3 attack having PC to draw a sword >strike>walk through a pile of furniture>drop  sword & draw a mace>strike>ewalk through a mook>drop mace & draw a different sword> walk through a _second_ mook>strike the bbeg.  the PC is only drawing or sheathing one weapon each time but as written  they are allowed to do it on "_any_" of their attacks & explicitly allowed to move between individual attacks in the attack action with movement explicitly allowed to move through other creatures & furniture... Lots of thing need to change in wording on related glossary entries
*Moving around other creatures*: This is_ entirely_ unacceptable.*  Grid map positioning obviation* is not just a thing that gets noticed by reading the difficult terrain entry  closely, it's actually spelled out as intended in a subsection of the move action.   

*Speed 0*: in a nutshell it zeroes all of your move speeds & that's probably a good thing 
as written this introduces c*ritically a problematic rules exploit*.  As written Bob can leap on a dragon > initiate a grapple to immediately stop the dragon from flying & the dragon cannot lift or drag bob inthe immediately halted flight despite flying without issue while bob was merely clinging to or standing on the dragon moments ago.


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> Why is it that Bob can grapple a giant or dragon & drag or carry it but the giant or dragon can't drag or carry the puny human they could juggle?



Is Bob within one size category of the dragon? If not, he cannot.



tetrasodium said:


> I really dislike the moving between attacks already present in 5e though, ironically this makes it worse by explicitly allowing it rather than allowing it by omission.



It has been explicitly allowed by the rules since 2014... If it wasn't in the rules, you would be severely punished for playing anything martial that wasn't an archer who can actually always get all of their attacks off.


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## tetrasodium (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> Is Bob within *one* size category of the dragon? If not, he cannot.



_"MOVING AROUND OTHER CREATURES    
During your Move, you can pass through the space of an ally, an Incapacitated creature, a Tiny creature, *or a creature who is two Sizes larger or smaller than you*.  *Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you, unless that creature is Tiny*.   You can’t willingly end your Move in a space occupied by another creature."
"A space is Difficult Terrain for a creature* if the space contains any of the following: *1*Creature that isn’t Tiny *2Furniture that is Small or larger" _
Those are from the playtest packet2 document.


fluffybunbunkittens said:


> It has been explicitly allowed by the rules since 2014... If it wasn't in the rules, you would be severely punished for playing anything martial that wasn't an archer who can actually always get all of their attacks off.



There are a lot of other things factoring in now to make it dramatically worse like the ability to draw or sheath a weapon any attack, the explicit ability to move through occupied spaces as difficult terrain if the creature in the space isn't tiny, weirdly also the explicit ability to move through the space of a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller as difficult terrain.  tiny creatures don't hold a space either, they just don't count as difficult terrain.

Before you decry the blight of melee though remember all of that works the same way when the Fire Giant or Tarrasque wants to walk *through* the warriors to geek the mage or whatever.

We don't yet have the weapons & don't know if there will be changes like the return of sane range increments or much needed shooting into melee type rules so the ranged weapon bit is a thing out of place


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> _"MOVING AROUND OTHER CREATURES"_



You were talking about grappling a dragon, not running between its legs.



tetrasodium said:


> weirdly also the explicit ability to move through the space of a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller



This was also always the rule vs critters 2 sizer smaller/larger than you.



tetrasodium said:


> Before you decry the blight of melee though remember all of that works the same way when the Fire Giant or Tarrasque wants to walk *through* the warriors to geek the mage or whatever.




They always could if those people were 2 sizes smaller... and the frontline never had anything but GM playing the monsters dumb to make them relevant, anyway. The threat of a single opportunity attack is not exactly worrisome (and actually a bunch of wolves/goblins swarming past you is more troublesome than a lone giant, as at least you could hope to pay the Sentinel feat tax to maybe stop the latter).


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## tetrasodium (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> You were talking about grappling a dragon, not running between its legs.



I think you are focused on only one of of the glossary entries in play here & dismissing all of them because _that_ one's not too significant.  The problems related to this come up in multiple places because the glossary has multiple items that each add their own problems to the mix.  

All of them are problems even if some were problems before as well Want to hold a door or narrow hallway against a bunch of small or medium sized  monsters?  Nope! they can move right through your space too because as a small or larger creature  you as a PC _only_ count as difficult terrain  for _any_ creature.


fluffybunbunkittens said:


> This was also always the rule vs critters 2 sizer smaller/larger than you.



It was not the rule not for every other creature of any size to move through the space of any small or larger creature as if difficult terrain. That's a big problem.


fluffybunbunkittens said:


> They always could if those people were 2 sizes smaller... and the frontline never had anything but GM playing the monsters dumb to make them relevant, anyway. The threat of a single opportunity attack is not exactly worrisome (and actually a bunch of wolves/goblins swarming past you is more troublesome, at least you could hope to Sentinel-stop the single giant).



True for the grapple from unarmed strike but there's no reason other abilities can't initiate a grapple or allow a PC to count as a larger creature,  There's still a A can carry/drag B but B can't carry/drag A and all of B's movement types are zero problem though.  Saying that it was broken before is hardly an excuse for explicitly shining a spotlight on the broken part or adding other stuff to amplify the problem.


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## Lojaan (Sep 30, 2022)

OB1 said:


> A lot of interesting changes in here.  The one that immediately caught my eye was Exhaustion.  Now with 10 levels before death, with each level resulting in a -1 to all d20 tests.  I wonder if being knocked unconscious and failing death saving throws will now come with exhaustion levels.



Yeah with this change I am very tempted to give my PCs a level of exhaustion if they go down in combat.


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> All of them are problems even if some were problems before as well Want to hold a door or narrow hallway against a bunch of small or medium sized  monsters?  Nope! they can move right through your space too because as a small or larger creature  you as a PC _only_ count as difficult terrain  for _any_ creature.




If you have made yourself Large, then yes, Small creatures can move through your space because you are 2 sizes larger than them (and you can move through theirs). This is how it has worked since 2014.

MOVING AROUND OTHER CREATURES (UA2022-Expert-Classes)
During your Move, you can pass through the
space of an ally, an Incapacitated creature, a Tiny
creature, or a creature who is two Sizes larger or
smaller than you.
Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain
for you, unless that creature is Tiny.
You can’t willingly end your Move in a space
occupied by another creature.

The change now is that they extended it to cover Incapacitated creatures (and Tiny critters regardless of your relative size).



tetrasodium said:


> There's still a A can carry/drag B but B can't carry/drag A and all of B's movement types are zero problem though.  Saying that it was broken before is hardly an excuse for explicitly shining a spotlight on the broken part or adding other stuff to amplify the problem.




No, the new grappling rules _are_ completely messed up, because any goblin can grab a hold of the Barbarian and drag them off, when previously his higher Str + Athletics + Rage would have actually made that practically impossible, regardless of his AC.


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## tetrasodium (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> If you have made yourself Large, then yes, Small creatures can move through your space because you are 2 sizes larger than them (and you can move through theirs). This is how it has worked since 2014.
> 
> MOVING AROUND OTHER CREATURES (UA2022-Expert-Classes)
> During your Move, you can pass through the
> ...



I've directly quoted and referenced this more than once. It says nothing about size differences, only the size of the creature occupying the square that "a creature" .wants to pass through as difficult terrain


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> I've directly quoted and referenced this more than once.



And if you read the section I quoted, they should form a picture.

You can only enter the space of a creature if they are an ally/incapacitated/2 sizes different. If this is the case, _then_ they are difficult terrain to move through.


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## tetrasodium (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> And if you read the section I quoted, they should form a picture.
> 
> You can only enter the space of a creature if they are an ally/incapacitated/2 sizes different. If this is the case, then they are difficult terrain to move through.



Yes  however the two are different rules in conflict with each other, that should never happen


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> Yes  however the two are different rules in conflict with each other, that should never happen



Wizards' natural language in action...

Still, they're not in conflict - one of them sets out _when_ you can enter a creature's space, then the other just repeats what it means to be in that space. Pretend the difficult terrain section says 'creature that isn't Tiny, and is an ally/incapacitated/2 sizes different from you' - which obviously wouldn't have fit onto one line.


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## tetrasodium (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> Wizards' natural language in action...
> 
> Still, they're not in conflict - one of them sets out _when_ you can enter a creature's space, then the other just repeats what it means to be in that space. Pretend the difficult terrain section says 'creature that isn't Tiny, and is an ally/incapacitated/2 sizes different from you' - which obviously wouldn't have fit onto one line.



There's plenty of room
1




2




3



I just made those alterations in the PDF itself with a PDF editor.  There's no reason a second line can't be used because I copied that indented second line from the very next page where the difficult terrain continues with two different two line conditions. This kind of structure in the PDF is how we got coffeelock & other such things that don't really work if you start mincing words & deeply enough to see past the plain reading of a thing.


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## Nikosandros (Sep 30, 2022)

TwoSix said:


> That's my reading, yes.



I dislike this change.  Just yesterday evening, the monk in my group jumped from the quay onto the bow of a ship and attacked one enemy in the same turn. That's a cool move that it would be a shame to invalidate.


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## TwoSix (Sep 30, 2022)

Nikosandros said:


> I dislike this change.  Just yesterday evening, the monk in my group jumped from the quay onto the bow of a ship and attacked one enemy in the same turn. That's a cool move that it would be a shame to invalidate.



Well, my personal expectation is that monks could very well get the ability to Jump as a bonus action.


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## Olrox17 (Sep 30, 2022)

So, under the new hiding rule, what's stopping a plate wearing, 8 dex, non-stealth proficient character from attempting to hide over and over out of combat until they succeed? A DC 15 isn't that hard to beat if you have a couple minutes to spare.
Hey, could even be a good way to farm natural 1s for that sweet inspiration reward.


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## billd91 (Sep 30, 2022)

Not sure I'm keen on the entry DC for the Hide action. I don't know what they're doing about group checks overall, but it seems like an entry DC for Hide is guaranteed to stifle the possibility of group stealth checks. And that would be a shame since group checks for things like stealth in particular are great additions to the game.


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## Charlaquin (Sep 30, 2022)

rules.mechanic said:


> Is "surprised" gone? Seems to have been replaced by advantage/disadvantage on initiative rolls



Checks out with how False Appearance works post-MMotM.


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

Olrox17 said:


> So, under the new hiding rule, what's stopping a plate wearing, 8 dex, non-stealth proficient character from attempting to hide over and over out of combat until they succeed?



What was stopping them from previously repeat-rolling until they roll a 20 on their stealth and can proudly tell the GM 'hey, use that as my stealth score'?


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## Charlaquin (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> I just realized, we finally get an actual Hidden condition listed.



Except the way it’s written seems entirely binary. You’re either Hidden (from everything) or not (from anything). No more room for being hidden from particular creatures and not from others.


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## Olrox17 (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> What was stopping them from previously repeat-rolling until they roll a 20 on their stealth and can proudly tell the GM 'hey, use that as my stealth score'?



In my games, the fact that you didn't actually roll the stealth check until someone was in range of detection. Plus, there was no gameplay incentive for farming natural 1s.


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 30, 2022)

Olrox17 said:


> So, under the new hiding rule, what's stopping a plate wearing, 8 dex, non-stealth proficient character from attempting to hide over and over out of combat until they succeed? A DC 15 isn't that hard to beat if you have a couple minutes to spare.
> Hey, could even be a good way to farm natural 1s for that sweet inspiration reward.



What is unreasonable about this? Is it not reasonable for an armoured person to be hidden in cover in ambush? As long as they are not moving. 
It does make Pass without trace more valuable as now it is highly the group will succeed in the basic hide DC but the Detection DC for some party members could still be low. So, moving into ambush with a fighter/paladin is viable but not guaranteed and there is still a reasonable chance that the fighter will be detected by the NPC but the stealthy guys will still get surprise.


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 30, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> Except the way it’s written seems entirely binary. You’re either Hidden (from everything) or not (from anything). No more room for being hidden from particular creatures and not from others.



Until they try to look for you.


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

Pass Without Trace was the usual method for supremacy, because +10 covers a LOT of ground when only half the group has to succeed in a group check, anyway. And the reward was a full surprise round of the enemy doing nothing. Now your reward is advantage on initiative, which is a lot more balanced.

So this change, also, is a nerf to the Ranger.


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> So, moving into ambush with a fighter/paladin is viable but not guaranteed and there is still a reasonable chance that the fighter will be detected by the NPC but the stealthy guys will still get surprise.



By the rules, that's a group check, so they are all detected or none of them are.

Ofc, sometimes it's nice to intentionally go against the rules and go with individual rolls like  'okay, people who succeeded, pick where you are on the fighty map and automatically go first', when all that is at stake is everyone's initial combat positioning.


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## Charlaquin (Sep 30, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Until they try to look for you.



And if they succeed, you cease being Hidden, which under this wording means you’re not hidden from anything.


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> By the rules, that's a group check, so they are all detected or none of them are.



That is arguable as the DM decides when a group check is appropriate. I would not be inclined to make an attempt to sneak to contact a group check as that would penalise the stealth characters (YMMV), on the other hand, if the party is trying to evade and keep their distance, I would allow a group check.


fluffybunbunkittens said:


> Ofc, sometimes it's nice to intentionally go against the rules and go with individual rolls like  'okay, people who succeeded, pick where you are on the fighty map and automatically go first', when all that is at stake is everyone's initial combat positioning.



I think there is enough leeway for both points of view.


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 30, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> And if they succeed, you cease being Hidden, which under this wording means you’re not hidden from anything.



I think you are technically correct and if I remember, I will comment on it on the survey because I think that is extreme and narratively unsatisfactory.


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> I think you are technically correct and if I remember, I will comment on it on the survey because I think that is extreme and narratively unsatisfactory.



Depends... previously, if someone does spot you, they can tell their friends there's a Rogue hiding in the lone bush in the middle of the clearing, but their friends will keep being shocked when someone from the bush shoots at them. And then hides again.


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## Charlaquin (Sep 30, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> I think you are technically correct and if I remember, I will comment on it on the survey because I think that is extreme and narratively unsatisfactory.



Yeah, I think being hidden, like having cover, needs to be relative to each observer instead of a binary on/off thing. I get that it’s more complex that way, but it’s worthwhile complexity.


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## Olrox17 (Sep 30, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> What is unreasonable about this? Is it not reasonable for an armoured person to be hidden in cover in ambush? As long as they are not moving.
> It does make Pass without trace more valuable as now it is highly the group will succeed in the basic hide DC but the Detection DC for some party members could still be low. So, moving into ambush with a fighter/paladin is viable but not guaranteed and there is still a reasonable chance that the fighter will be detected by the NPC but the stealthy guys will still get surprise.



I'll provide an illustrative example of what seems to be the playtest's RAW right now.

Bob the fighter is wearing plate, has no stealth prof, and has 8 dex. His Dex (stealth) checks are rolled at -1 and disadvantage.

DM: You stand near the cave's entrance. Are you going to enter?
Bob: Wait, before we go, I crouch behind a rock and attempt to become hidden.
DM: Roll a Dex check.
Bob: I have -1, and disadvantage - rolls - highest roll is 4.
DM: You are not hidden.
Bob: Ok, trying again next round, we can spare a minute.
DM: Roll again.
Bob: -rolls- oh, a natural 1!
DM: Clearly you're not hidden, but you get inspiration, I guess?
Bob: Trying again! -rolls- Another natural 1!
DM: According to the rules, you can give inspiration to another party member.
_and so on..._

Obviously, no DM would allow this to happen, some kind of ruling would be made on the spot to avoid abuse, but it looks like this is the playtest's RAW. It should be fixed.


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## tetrasodium (Sep 30, 2022)

Olrox17 said:


> So, under the new hiding rule, what's stopping a plate wearing, 8 dex, non-stealth proficient character from attempting to hide over and over out of combat until they succeed? A DC 15 isn't that hard to beat if you have a couple minutes to spare.
> Hey, could even be a good way to farm natural 1s for that sweet inspiration reward.




"while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any visible enemy’s line of sight"
and

"Ending the Condition.* The Condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurrences: *you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an Attack Roll, you cast a Spell with a verbal component, or you aren’t Heavily Obscured or behind any Cover."  
and the  gm clause

*The DM determines the Difficulty Class of an Ability Check **and can override a DC specified in the rules*."
Alongside the hide action (or almost any other action) itself.

The Typical Difficulty Class table    "Make note of your check’s total, which becomes the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom Check (Perception)."

Make note of those last two. The GM doesn't need to allow the player to roll and the GM can choose to override the dc so "yep you are hidden" can be said on a d20 roll of one minus one back when you are in an empty room with the group preparing to sneak off further into the bbeg's lair.  Also like @Charlaquin said cover & obscurement is relative to the observer.


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## Charlaquin (Sep 30, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> Depends... previously, if someone does spot you, they can tell their friends there's a Rogue hiding in the lone bush in the middle of the clearing, but their friends will keep being shocked when someone from the bush shoots at them. And then hides again.



Shocked has nothing to do with it. If they can neither see nor hear you, you have advantage on attacks against them and they have disadvantage on attacks against you. Not because they don’t know your position, but because not being able to see or hear someone makes it pretty dang hard to fight them, even if you know their position.


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## Charlaquin (Sep 30, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> Also like @Charlaquin said cover & obscurement is relative to the observer.



Cover and obscuration are relative to the observer, but this version of the Hidden condition is not. If any enemy finds you, the condition ends, which means you have to make yourself covered or obscured from _everyone_ in order to become Hidden, and you stop being hidden from _everyone_ if _anyone_ spots you. It’s… really dumb…


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## tetrasodium (Sep 30, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> Cover and obscuration are relative to the observer, but this version of the Hidden condition is not. If any enemy finds you, the condition ends, which means you have to make yourself covered or obscured from _everyone_ in order to become Hidden, and you stop being hidden from _everyone_ if _anyone_ spots you. It’s… really dumb…



Look at pg33 ending the condition section in the hide action (quoted above in #74).  "_or you aren’t Heavily Obscured or behind any Cover_." is pretty explicitly relative to the observer and makes a lot of sense.  It makes sense because with the shift stealth ceases to become a spell slot free improved version of the scry spell & there needs to be more thought from the group put into things like approaching from stealth distractions &  alternate more involved means of entry like this.


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## Olrox17 (Sep 30, 2022)

The more I look at the new hiding rules, the more terrible they look. They should really scrap the current iteration, I think it's unsalvageable.


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## Xamnam (Sep 30, 2022)

Olrox17 said:


> I'll provide an illustrative example of what seems to be the playtest's RAW right now.
> 
> Bob the fighter is wearing plate, has no stealth prof, and has 8 dex. His Dex (stealth) checks are rolled at -1 and disadvantage.
> 
> ...



I would say this is already covered by the DMG, and not invalidated or changed by any of the playtest content.


> Multiple Ability Checks (P. 237)
> 
> Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task. To speed things up, assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeeds at that task.


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## Olrox17 (Sep 30, 2022)

Xamnam said:


> I would say this is already covered by the DMG, and not invalidated or changed by any of the playtest content.
> Multiple Ability Checks (P. 237)
> 
> Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task. To speed things up, assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeeds at that task.



Ok so, are we just going to assume that, given a few minutes of prep time, every PC is going to walk into the dungeon hidden with a natural 20 stealth check? (Again, strictly talking about the RAW here).


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## OB1 (Sep 30, 2022)

Honestly, I think all of the Skill actions (Hide, Jump, Study, Search, Influence ) in the Glossary need to be scrapped.  Just go with DM rulings for all of these situations.  It's messy, but it works.  At most, return these guidelines to the DMG as helpful advice to DMs on how to rule.


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## Xamnam (Sep 30, 2022)

Olrox17 said:


> Ok so, are we just going to assume that, given a few minutes of prep time, every PC is going to walk into the dungeon hidden with a natural 20 stealth check? (Again, strictly talking about the RAW here).



No, just a success, which for the new rules is a equivalent to rolling a 16 for this PC.

But also, I personally wouldn't ask them to roll the check until there is something that could potentially contest it. I never liked the idea that in a safe environment, you have a perfect idea of how stealthy you're going to be for the duration of the attempt, and can "retry" if you didn't start well enough. But that's beyond RAW.


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Sep 30, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Honestly, I think all of the Skill actions (Hide, Jump, Study, Search, Influence ) in the Glossary need to be scrapped.  Just go with DM rulings for all of these situations.  It's messy, but it works.  At most, return these guidelines to the DMG as helpful advice to DMs on how to rule.



I think that Study action is definitely useful, to cover checking out monsters. 'leave it to DM' just means every table plays it differently, players cannot trust whether any skill is useful, and every DM has to become a game designer on the spot rather than getting support from the system.

Of course, the action they gave us does leave every detail about what you learn up in the air, and the Keen Mind feat that boosts it, is only of use to Wizards, because Int. So I more like the idea than the flimsy execution.


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## Olrox17 (Sep 30, 2022)

Xamnam said:


> No, just a success, which for the new rules is a equivalent to rolling a 16 for this PC.
> 
> But also, I personally wouldn't ask them to roll the check until there is something that could potentially contest it. I never liked the idea that in a safe environment, you have a perfect idea of how stealthy you're going to be for the duration of the attempt, and can "retry" if you didn't start well enough. But that's beyond RAW.



I absolutely agree with you, and that would also be my ruling. I'm just suggesting that the RAW on hiding is pretty terrible right now, I'll have to advise WotC to scrap it and start over in my survey feedback. Harsh, but I just don't see this stuff working.


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## Olrox17 (Sep 30, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Honestly, I think all of the Skill actions (Hide, Jump, Study, Search, Influence ) in the Glossary need to be scrapped.  Just go with DM rulings for all of these situations.  It's messy, but it works.  At most, return these guidelines to the DMG as helpful advice to DMs on how to rule.



I partially agree with you. While I do see the merit of having player-facing rules on those skill actions (especially because of how common they are in the average game), the current iteration isn't good, IMO, and needs to be scrapped.


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## Charlaquin (Sep 30, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> Look at pg33 ending the condition section in the hide action (quoted above in #74).  "_or you aren’t Heavily Obscured or behind any Cover_." is pretty explicitly relative to the observer and makes a lot of sense. It makes sense because *with the shift stealth ceases to become a spell slot free improved version of the scry spell* & there needs to be more thought from the group put into things like approaching from stealth distractions &  alternate more involved means of entry like this.



What on earth does the bolded mean?


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## tetrasodium (Sep 30, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> What on earth does the bolded mean?



If you recall s*cry & fry* from the old days it has a lot of similarities.   I find that in 5e there are a lot of players who tend to use stealth like a ten foot pole in tomb of horrors but with better range & capabilities.  expertise stealth & 20 dex is basically at will undetectability against anything that doesn't amount to  rocks fall levels of monster CR so they act like it.  The entire group stays behind & mob goes to "scout" refusing to take ant action  but continuing even when bob is told how he feels that he's over extended & too far from the group.  

Everyone knows that bob is perfectly safe & in no danger from anything that doesn't allow them to call out the gm for being adversarial so it plays out like the extreme ends of old school scry & fry no matter what the GM tries to todo redirect the session held hostage.  The new stealth rules give the GM lots of room to allow reasonable scouting with stealth _and_ a significant number of ways to casually make clear to players  that expecting to go further stealth based scry & fry is not an option without the GM coming off as adversarial just because there is an empty hall/multiple lookouts with multiple vantage points/a neatly trimmed lawn/etc where those sorts of things seem appropriate.

Now If sneaking through the grassy lawn & climbing in through the front window while guards are patrolling is going to fit the adventure then it's going to fit because the gm made it clear & allowed it not because the players decided to brute force it with bounded accuracy destroying abilities to avoid engaging in the adventure that would have allowed alternate ingress that wouldn't raise alarms


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Oct 1, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Honestly, I think all of the Skill actions (Hide, Jump, Study, Search, Influence ) in the Glossary need to be scrapped.  Just go with DM rulings for all of these situations.  It's messy, but it works.  At most, return these guidelines to the DMG as helpful advice to DMs on how to rule.



Isn't that how it worked in the 2014 PHB? And people complained that the rules were too vague and dependent on the DM.


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## Charlaquin (Oct 1, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> If you recall s*cry & fry* from the old days it has a lot of similarities.   I find that in 5e there are a lot of players who tend to use stealth like a ten foot pole in tomb of horrors but with better range & capabilities.  expertise stealth & 20 dex is basically at will undetectability against anything that doesn't amount to  rocks fall levels of monster CR so they act like it.  The entire group stays behind & mob goes to "scout" refusing to take ant action  but continuing even when bob is told how he feels that he's over extended & too far from the group.
> 
> Everyone knows that bob is perfectly safe & in no danger from anything that doesn't allow them to call out the gm for being adversarial so it plays out like the extreme ends of old school scry & fry no matter what the GM tries to todo redirect the session held hostage.  The new stealth rules give the GM lots of room to allow reasonable scouting with stealth _and_ a significant number of ways to casually make clear to players  that expecting to go further stealth based scry & fry is not an option without the GM coming off as adversarial just because there is an empty hall/multiple lookouts with multiple vantage points/a neatly trimmed lawn/etc where those sorts of things seem appropriate.



This seems implausible to me. You know the GM determines when conditions are appropriate to hide, right?


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## tetrasodium (Oct 1, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> This seems implausible to me. You know the GM determines when conditions are appropriate to hide, right?



The PC survivability & ease of recovery does a lot to play into creating the problem  since the PC is never at any real risk when they push too far.  The fact that 29+014 conditions to hide are so deeply into "ask your gm" is what causes it to become adversarial when the gm pushes back on stealth needing more than a 27 or whatever if the player ignores the gm's warnings that can't csrry with any real risk.

The rules switching from "the gm can take away your cool toys when it shouldn't matter than you can roll a 27" to "the gm can empower your cool toys when it might be ok that you can roll a 27" no longer forces the gm into an adversarial position so they can actually use that leeway without being adversarial.


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## Micah Sweet (Oct 1, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> This seriously is the only sensible approach. I cannot believe they went 'you heal to full' followed by 'no not like that' in the first place...



They were trying to hold on to a semblance of the idea that a full night's sleep doesn't actually fix literally everything.  But apparently that's too "complex", so let's take something that's already a problem and make it worse.


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## Bill Zebub (Oct 1, 2022)

TwoSix said:


> Well, my personal expectation is that monks could very well get the ability to Jump as a bonus action.




And rogues. And maybe tacked onto a feat.


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## Bill Zebub (Oct 1, 2022)

This version of hiding has some counterintuitive implications, but it vastly simplified things for the DM, especially when the rogue (or rogues!) hides/shoots every round.


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## Micah Sweet (Oct 1, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> Except the way it’s written seems entirely binary. You’re either Hidden (from everything) or not (from anything). No more room for being hidden from particular creatures and not from others.



Again, too "complex".


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## Micah Sweet (Oct 1, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Until they try to look for you.



They have to have a reason to be looking for you, and take an action to Search.  Not always the case.


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## tetrasodium (Oct 1, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> This version of hiding has some counterintuitive implications, but it vastly simplified things for the DM, * especially when the rogue (or rogues!) hides/shoots every round.
> *



That sounds like the solution should be
Q1: Is that bolded bit something the rogue should be able to do? 
Q2: If so should it come with a cost or be automatic?
Q3: If with a cost, what cost should this new rogue ability carry & how often should it be allowed?
The hide action is very much the wrong mechanic for "duck behind the fighter & tumble in an unexpected way or something". As a general mechanic it's doubly the wrong mechanic if we are talking about a rogue specific use for sneak attack.[/b]


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## Micah Sweet (Oct 1, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Honestly, I think all of the Skill actions (Hide, Jump, Study, Search, Influence ) in the Glossary need to be scrapped.  Just go with DM rulings for all of these situations.  It's messy, but it works.  At most, return these guidelines to the DMG as helpful advice to DMs on how to rule.



Perhaps they're back to rules over rulings and player supremacy again for 6e.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 1, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> They have to have a reason to be looking for you, and take an action to Search.  Not always the case.



And that is a problem why? If they are guards they are  should be taking a search action very round anyway.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 1, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> Perhaps they're back to rules over rulings and player supremacy again for 6e.



I doubt it the game would require a lot more codification to get there.


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## Micah Sweet (Oct 1, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> And that is a problem why? If they are guards they are  should be taking a search action very round anyway.



Not in most fiction I've seen.  Or in real life.  Have you ever been told to watch a place?  If so, have you actively searched for changes to your surroundings continuously?  That's what you're asking for here.  It's not Passive Perception.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 1, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> Not in most fiction I've seen.  Or in real life.  Have you ever been told to watch a place?  If so, have you actively searched for changes to your surroundings continuously?  That's what you're asking for here.  It's not Passive Perception.



What is the difference between looking around you and looking for changes in your surroundings continuously? 
I mean if you are on watch and reading a newspaper then no check for you but if you are looking at the surroundings then you get the check. This is a return to pre 4e rules.

From the player perspective, if you advance at half movement you get to check and not at full move. I think it is a boon to DMs as now I do have to remember about passive perception values.


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## Olrox17 (Oct 1, 2022)

People have eyes and ears. Those don't turn off on their own. Unless somebody is actively distracted (or asleep), they should get a passive chance to notice something they aren't actually looking for. It happens to me all the time, and I would expect it would happen more if I was on guard duty in a warzone.
Now, I could see passive perception reduced to 8+modifier instead of 10+modifier, but it absolutely should exist.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 1, 2022)

Olrox17 said:


> People have eyes and ears. Those don't turn off on their own. Unless somebody is actively distracted (or asleep), they should get a passive chance to notice something they aren't actually looking for. It happens to me all the time, and I would expect it would happen more if I was on guard duty in a warzone.
> Now, I could see passive perception reduced to 8+modifier instead of 10+modifier, but it absolutely should exist.



How is that changed by giving them a perception roll? The way it now works (with the UA) is the PC makes a stealth check against a DC of 15. If they fail they are not hidden and the NPC sees them automatically. No need for passive perception.
If they succeed they are hidden. In fact, rereading the hidden condition it is now impossible to sneak. You need heavy obscuration or total cover to remain hidden.


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## Olrox17 (Oct 1, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> How is that changed by giving them a perception roll? The way it now works (with the UA) is the PC makes a stealth check against a DC of 15. If they fail they are not hidden and the NPC sees them automatically. No need for passive perception.
> If they succeed they are hidden. In fact, rereading the hidden condition it is now impossible to sneak. You need heavy obscuration or total cover to remain hidden.



That rule, as written, is ridiculous. Out of combat, you could attempt the DC 15 check as many times as you want until you succeed. Even an heavily armored PC with 8 dex will make a DC 15 after a few failed tries.
A correction: you don't need total cover to maintain the hidden status, just regular cover (or heavy obscurement, as you said). So it's not impossibile, just terrain dependent. Which is good.


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## tetrasodium (Oct 1, 2022)

Olrox17 said:


> That rule, as written, is ridiculous. Out of combat, you could attempt the DC 15 check as many times as you want until you succeed. Even an heavily armored PC with 8 dex will make a DC 15 after a few failed tries.
> A correction: you don't need total cover to maintain the hidden status, just regular cover (or heavy obscurement, as you said). So it's not impossibile, just terrain dependent. Which is good.



Why is the ability for an 8 dex PC in platemail to spend a long time successfully hiding in a location where they intend to remain hidden to simply wait for an ambush hide from a patrol or whatever?  As soon as they start moving all of that effort goes out the window as the various required conditions come into play


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## Olrox17 (Oct 1, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> Why is the ability for an 8 dex PC in platemail to spend a long time successfully hiding in a location where they intend to remain hidden to simply wait for an ambush hide from a patrol or whatever?  As soon as they start moving all of that effort goes out the window as the various required conditions come into play



I have to ask you to elaborate on that. Why would the effort go out of the window as soon they move? As long as cover or obscurement is maintained, the hidden condition remains. You could easily creep on an enemy camp, maintaining the hidden status among the foliage and trees (for example).


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## tetrasodium (Oct 1, 2022)

Olrox17 said:


> I have to ask you to elaborate on that. Why would the effort go out of the window as soon they move? As long as cover or obscurement is maintained, the hidden condition remains. You could easily creep on an enemy camp, maintaining the hidden status among the foliage and trees (for example).



Look at the hidden condition immediately above the hide action.  

"Ending the Condition.* The Condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurrences: *you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an Attack Roll, you cast a Spell with a verbal component, or you aren’t Heavily Obscured or behind any Cover."
Once that 8 dex platemail wearing PC stops being hidden where they are & starts moving elsewhere or starts doing anything that could cross any of those conditions then they are no longer able to benefit from some or all of the prep they did back at the dungeon entrance or whatever


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## Olrox17 (Oct 1, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> Look at the hidden condition immediately above the hide action.
> 
> "Ending the Condition.* The Condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurrences: *you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an Attack Roll, you cast a Spell with a verbal component, or you aren’t Heavily Obscured or behind any Cover."
> Once that 8 dex platemail wearing PC stops being hidden where they are & starts moving elsewhere or starts doing anything that could cross any of those conditions then they are no longer able to benefit from some or all of the prep they did back at the dungeon entrance or whatever



Well, yes. If that 8 dex plate wearer keeps cover or concealment and doesn't speak, they can creep (alongside the rest of the party) in range of their enemies, roll initiative with advantage, and fire their first salvo of attacks (bows, spells, javelins) with advantage. Getting a "surprise round" has never been so brain dead easy.


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## fluffybunbunkittens (Oct 1, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> Have you ever been told to watch a place?  If so, have you actively searched for changes to your surroundings continuously?  That's what you're asking for here.  It's not Passive Perception.



I shouldn't have to keep shouting I AM BEING ALERT GM I AM LOOKING AROUND for my paranoid scout character to be aware of their surroundings.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 1, 2022)

Olrox17 said:


> Well, yes. If that 8 dex plate wearer keeps cover or concealment and doesn't speak, they can creep (alongside the rest of the party) in range of their enemies, roll initiative with advantage, and fire their first salvo of attacks (bows, spells, javelins) with advantage. Getting a "surprise round" has never been so brain dead easy.



While I do admit that we overestimate the degree that armour makes noise. 
And the environment is generally not taken into account enough for hearing (wind in particular). However there are two issues with your position. Making noise while moveing and covering clear ground.

Under the current rules it is impossible to cover clear ground. The movie trope of sneaking up on the sentry is impossible under the UA as the sentry will spot you once you are close enough to be no longer be obscured.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 1, 2022)

fluffybunbunkittens said:


> I shouldn't have to keep shouting I AM BEING ALERT GM I AM LOOKING AROUND for my paranoid scout character to be aware of their surroundings.



To be honest the DM that requires that is being an asshat anyway. One of the things that passive perception did provide to prevent the player from receiving metagame knowledge from being asked to make a perception check.


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## Olrox17 (Oct 1, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> While I do admit that we overestimate the degree that armour makes noise.
> And the environment is generally not taken into account enough for hearing (wind in particular). However there are two issues with your position. Making noise while moveing and covering clear ground.
> 
> Under the current rules it is impossible to cover clear ground. The movie trope of sneaking up on the sentry is impossible under the UA as the sentry will spot you once you are close enough to be no longer be obscured.



Oh hey, it's the Metatron. Excellent channel.
Agreed, under the current rules it's technically impossible to sneak up on a sentry to dispatch them in melee unnoticed. Another failure of the current iteration, let's add it to the pile.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 2, 2022)

A subtle but powerful change: The Help action requires you to be proficient in the skill you are assisting with. This prevents the horde of players trying to help on every knowledge check or investigation.


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## THEMNGMNT (Oct 2, 2022)

I'm glad to see the hiding rules cleaned up, but they still seem a little wonky. How about something more like this?

HIDING
To hide, you must roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check, which varies depending upon the conditions:

DC 10: Total cover or total darkness 
DC 15: ¾ cover or heavy obscurement
DC 20: ½ cover or light obscurement

To spot you, other characters must make a Wisdom (Perception) check, which varies upon the conditions:

DC 10: ½ cover or light obscurement
DC 15: ¾ cover or heavy obscurement
DC 20: Total cover or total darkness 

I'm not quite sure how invisibility would interact with this approach.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 2, 2022)

THEMNGMNT said:


> I'm glad to see the hiding rules cleaned up, but they still seem a little wonky. How about something more like this?
> 
> HIDING
> To hide, you must roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check, which varies depending upon the conditions:
> ...



Too complicated the proposed rule is fine it just needs a line that explains about movement while hidden. Can you break concealment if no one is looking at you.
Invisibility needs something that does not give disadvantage if the target is seen by "See Invisibility" or other effect.


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## doctorbadwolf (Oct 2, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Good catch. I like that it is no vs passive perception anymore (which is hopefully gone), but I don't like the fixed DC. I would love an "awareness defense" instead, even if it is just 12 + prof bonus.
> I'd even more like 8 + prof bonus + int or dex, whicheveris better.
> Maneuver defense would be 8 + prof bonus + dex or str.
> 
> Now we need a defense that is 8 + prof bonus + cha or con. Maybe some kind of resilience vs exhaustion.



Please no grid filling design, ever. Please. 


Amrûnril said:


> I think fixed attitude categories and DCs are inevitably going to run into issues. Friendliness and hostility occur on a spectrum, as do levels of risk and sacrifice (and any number of additional personality traits could come into play). I'd say the game would be better off encouraging the DM to evaluate difficulty on a case by case basis, perhaps with some examples provided for guidance.



I think sample DCs with normal risks and rewards listed, like they have it, is sufficient.   



Stalker0 said:


> The only one that really sticks out to me is the DC 10 letting you shut down attack mode, that seems a bit too easy.



Reads more to me as meaning they don’t respond with violence to your attempt to influence them, not that they won’t attack you for other reasons.


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## doctorbadwolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> Perhaps they're back to rules over rulings and player supremacy again for 6e.



Or, it could be a minor course correction to see if the community reaction meets expectations based on feedback over the last 8 years, and hopefully find a better balance between rules and rulings.


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