# Can you use Gentle Repose on an Undead?



## TremorFang (Aug 12, 2010)

Sorry if this was asked already. I was just wondering if one could use the spell gentle repose on an undead character.

     I ask because I would like my character to eventually become a Lich, but for story sake, he is the type that doesn't want others to know he is a Lich. 

    That way he can be like, "Surprise! I am a Lich". 

   I know I would need to talk to my DM about using permanency on gentle repose, but that's only if gentle repose can preserve the undead.

        Thanks.


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## Dandu (Aug 12, 2010)

Yes.


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## TremorFang (Aug 12, 2010)

Alright. Thanks then.


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## Jhaelen (Aug 12, 2010)

TremorFang said:


> Sorry if this was asked already. I was just wondering if one could use the spell gentle repose on an undead character.



That doesn't work, since the spell targets a corpse. A corpse is a type of object while an undead is a type of creature.


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## Drowbane (Aug 12, 2010)

Jhaelen is correct in terms of raw. So ask your DM, he might be ok with it anyways. My last undead PC had a ring of gentle repose.


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## Cor_Malek (Aug 12, 2010)

disclaimer - my explanation deals more with "right, but *how*?" part of this, and can(should) be ignored if for someone "Magic!"+page number is enough ;-)

It does need corpse, but I guess it depends on how you see the walking dead. IMO a lich body is by all means dead even if it's still animated by his arcane powers, and thus could be targeted by gentle repose spell, especially that apparently it just fends off germs shields from detrimental influence of oxygen. Now, trying to appear forever young by casting it on live body still wouldn't work, seeing how we need oxygen and the germs (yay ingestion!). On the other hand, since people raised after being under this spell do not immediately drop dead from suffocation, we could assume that any body-influencing spell cast after GR cancel it's preserving effects.

Even if we focus on the "a walking cadaver is not a cadaver, he's just cadaver-ish" line of thinking, you could have the cleric that is transforming you cast a permanent GR on your body before turning you to a lich.
How_ever_. The process of lich creation might be detrimental to the body by itself, as it's a case-by-case thing. Casting this spell on your body could very well prevent successful transformation, leaving you in an awkward spot.

All in all one can rule-lawyer it either way. Ultimately it's DM's call, but it's not without a merit, and could be fun.


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## jefgorbach (Aug 12, 2010)

IMO its feasible/legal per RAW.  

The description for Gentle Reposes states "You preserve the remains of a *dead *creature so that they do not decay." with RAW defining "dead" as being when "The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, *his Constitution drops to 0*, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect." (emphasis mine)

The key word being -OR- because even though liches have recovered their hit points, they still have a zero Constitution so are dead per RAW and thus subject to Gentle Repose.


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## Persiflage (Aug 12, 2010)

No, for two reasons.  One is what Jhaelen said: an undead creature is not a valid target for the spell.  The other is my opinion only, based on this:




			
				What the SRD Says the Well-Dressed Lich is Wearing This Summer said:
			
		

> A lich is a gaunt and skeletal humanoid  with withered flesh stretched tight across horribly visible bones. Its  eyes have long ago been lost to decay, but bright pinpoints of crimson light burn on in the empty sockets.





That's not what a normally-decayed corpse looks like without deliberately arranging matters that way (glowing red eyes being in any case quite hard to do with standard embalming processes).  That's what you look like _when you become a lich_.  It's part of the process and damn well _ought_ to be a drawback.  I say there's no way that a _Gentle Repose_ spell can or should be able to counteract the violent physiological trauma associated with a deliberate transformation to the undead state.  Anyway,  you've got to be at least an 11th-level caster to pull this off, so resorting to _Veil_ or similarly-powerful disguise magic ought to be an option for you.  As a minimum, tinted glasses are going to be a necessity  

Why would you want to be a Lich anyway?  You'll just get blown to shrapnel by a mid-level Radiant Servant of Do-Goodery by the end of your first week, and don't think that phylactery nonsense will save you.  Ghosts have significantly greater amounts of awesome at the cost of +5 level adjustment instead of +4 for candy-ass liches.  Get your back-story right as a ghost and it's nigh-impossible to put you down.  Or Death Knights, they rock too (provided none of your party start making snide comments about Dragonlance).

Liches were actually scary in 2e; now they're just easy XP for any cleric who's made even a moderate investment in their ability to turn undead. [


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## Cor_Malek (Aug 12, 2010)

Persiflage said:


> Liches were actually scary in 2e; now they're just easy XP for any cleric who's made even a moderate investment in their ability to turn undead.



The rest of them carries a bazillion nightsticks on them anyway ;-)

BTW - I was sort of surprised to see that Lichen do not have SR. Huh.


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## TremorFang (Aug 12, 2010)

The main reason is, my character has the "cliche'" never ending search for power. If your life has ended, well then so has your search for said power. Thus he turned to ways to indefinitely increasing his life span. So far, being a lich seems the only achievable way. I would love having devine level 0... probably not going to happen. lol. 

     I would of course have to invest in items that give turn resistance, but I like what my character did with his phylactery. Anyways, not dying is the main reason.


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## zaulsiin (Aug 13, 2010)

jefgorbach said:


> IMO its feasible/legal per RAW.
> 
> The description for Gentle Reposes states "You preserve the remains of a *dead *creature so that they do not decay." with RAW defining "dead" as being when "The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, *his Constitution drops to 0*, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect." (emphasis mine)
> 
> The key word being -OR- because even though liches have recovered their hit points, they still have a zero Constitution so are dead per RAW and thus subject to Gentle Repose.




There is a difference between "Zero Constitution" and "(null) Constitution". A undead creature has no Constitution score at all. It has no value assigned to it, not even 0.

That being said, I would be inclined to employ the Rule of Cool for this one. I don't think it works by strict RAW, but it's a clever use of an otherwise mostly unused spell, and should therefore be allowed.


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## radmod (Aug 13, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> That doesn't work, since the spell targets a corpse. A corpse is a type of object while an undead is a type of creature.






Drowbane said:


> Jhaelen is correct in terms of raw. So ask your DM, he might be ok with it anyways. My last undead PC had a ring of gentle repose.




AFAIK, there is no official definition of a corpse as an object. This falls under the category of "how does your DM define a word?" Corpse used to mean 'body', but that definition is obsolete; now it means a "dead body."
A lich is a type of undead, which the D&D Glossary defines as being "once-living creatures". Further a creature is a "living, or otherwise active being."
So one could choose to say 'once-living' means now-dead and therefore a lich is a corpse, OR
one could take the common sense approach and say that 'dead' means non-active, which a lich is, by definition, active.

I choose the latter.


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## TremorFang (Aug 13, 2010)

Interesting. I shall ask my DM what he wants to do. My argument, if you can call it that, is that it doesn't really break anything. It's not like I am somehow gaining constitution score by preserving the body; I am merely going for a certain look and way of role-playing my character.

     I have been looking into immortality and there just isn't anything achievable besides a lich. I would much prefer devine rank 0, and I still want to look into that. A devine lich would be very interesting I think.

If you guys know of other awesome ways to be an immortal spell cast. Except Incantifier (Not worth taking). I am open to ideas. Thanks for the insight.


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## TremorFang (Aug 13, 2010)

Alright so my DM said it would be alright to use gentle repose, except that I will have a sort of stale smell about me. Quick question. Do liches still gain attribute points at the multiples of 4 levels? A friend said he thought they didn't because their undead and therefore don't "Grow". I think he's wrong. Just because you are undead doesn't mean you can't become smarter, or wiser right?


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## Theo R Cwithin (Aug 13, 2010)

If your DM doesn't go for gentle repose, try:
[sblock]_*ORCUS' CHOICE* 
brand*
Baby **Oil *_

Squeezed from only the most vigorous elf babies in the multiverse, _ORCUS' CHOICE_  brand Baby Oils will give any corporeal Undead softer and more supple skin, leaving even the most ancient and evil of immortality-seekers with a spritely youthful appearance.

With _ORCUS' CHOICE_  brand Baby Oils you _*will*_ feel fresher and more alive than ever before!






_ Sold at better beauty boutiques all throughout the Realms.
__Suggested retail price: 85gp for a 30 day supply. _
[/sblock]​


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## radmod (Aug 14, 2010)

TremorFang said:


> Alright so my DM said it would be alright to use gentle repose, except that I will have a sort of stale smell about me. Quick question. Do liches still gain attribute points at the multiples of 4 levels? A friend said he thought they didn't because their undead and therefore don't "Grow". I think he's wrong. Just because you are undead doesn't mean you can't become smarter, or wiser right?




I'm assuming you're talking ability score increases? My understanding is that any creature that is modified to a PC still retains his level dependent benefits. Of course, I don't have anything with me right now, so I can't confirm that. Otherwise, the creature would get the HD growth benefit of monsters, which is huge.


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## TremorFang (Aug 20, 2010)

I see. Thanks for the info.


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## Cor_Malek (Aug 20, 2010)

Tremor, I think that what your friend describes would fit rather to age ability score changes. Attribute points gained every 4 lvls come from experience gained, not physical change. In a way, you retain same strength/dexterity/whatever, but you *learn* to use it better, which is solved mechanically by adding points to numerical value of given attribute. Also, rule 0.


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## TremorFang (Aug 21, 2010)

That makes sense. It's not like a Lich would get less intelligent over time. That is the whole reason a Lich becomes what they did, power and time to gain more of it. Thanks.


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