# [OT] Why is Anime so popular???



## Utrecht (Jan 7, 2003)

As a fairly serious question, I have been wondering why is anime as an overall medium so popular???

I ask this because so much of what is available -either at the store or on television - seems well, bad.  Sure there are exceptions like Ghost in the Machine, Kiki's Delivery Service, etc...... but it almost seems like if a "cartoon" has the word anime, or uses an anime style that it must be good.

Now I acknowledge that I might be curmodgoney here - but the more I see of anime, the more dissatisfied I get.  Sure some of it is marketed for children like Yu-Gi-Oh or even *shudder* Dragonball Z - and can understand that this is drek, but even older stuff seems well bad.  For example, the Recond of Lodoss War or Robotech - if taken with a critical, neutral eye are pretty bad - or at least not good.

So I am curious why is animie so popular - is it the kewlness or is there something that I am no longer seeing?????


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## blackshirt5 (Jan 7, 2003)

Because a lot of it is pretty good actually.  Personal faves are the Fatal Fury Trilogy, Demon City Shinjuku, Fist of the North Star, Record of Lodoss Wars, and Saint Seiya.

Although I will agree with you that a lot of the stuff that gets mainstreamed here is drek, I LOVE Yu-gi-oh.


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## Dragongirl (Jan 7, 2003)

I have no idea.  I have tried to watch several anime movies and they just don't do anything for me.  I do have a friend that really loves it though.


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 7, 2003)

It creates it's own little circular world of self-references and it's own styles (not unlike D&D in it's way. )

I'm not a big Robotech fan, but it seems to speak to a certain space-drama queen.

I'm not a fan at all of Dragon Ball Z, but I've known people who very much enjoy watching the repetative battles...

I guess Anime, like any art form, can be seperated into the "easily digestable stuff" that many people enjoy on a purely grinning level. It's like reading a D&D novel, or watching an Earnest movie, or probably a good chunk of comic books, or a schlocky action movie. It's fun, but it doesn't exactly have artistic or cultural merit. 

And then there's the more artsy stuff. The Escaflowne movie is a wonderous symphony of art and music. Similarly, Cowboy Bebop speaks to a jaded future (also with superb music -- Yokko Kanno did the music for these, and I'm a HUGE fan. ). You get things like Grave of the Fireflies, or Metropolis that's dimensional, mutlifaceted, and wondrous. Anime does things to protagonists and reality that live action could never duplicate (or at least not inexpensively. ). It's wondrous fantasy that no other art form can easily duplicate -- cartoons made art.

Of course, there's a lot of derivative and soap-opera-y type material. A lot of it's not really easily digestible unless you want to get into the mythos (Robotech is a perfect example, but stuff like Gundam or Kenshin fall into the category).

And like I said, I'm not a HUGE anime fan, and I know this. ^_^

If you're looking for artistic merit, don't nessecarily look for the things the fans love. Because sometimes, an anime with giant city-crushing robots will fare very well just because it has giant city-crushing robots, just like a book involving a certain epic-level FR Wizard will sell well just because it has that dude in it.


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## Maitre Du Donjon (Jan 7, 2003)

Record of Lodoss War not Good?

*tries not to swallow tongue*

Seriously you jest?

This is one of the anime series i truly like!

As for your actual question... i can't say why anime is so popular... It usually has good visuals, improbable female bodies, etc. But the anime "style" has become much more popular with the shows you've mentioned (as well as Pokemon, bleh)... i doubt it could be considered "true" anime...

Maybe at the beginning, anime being somewhat "underground", it was cool to actually like anime.

hey, what's this? *wanders off*

Maitre D


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## Dinkeldog (Jan 7, 2003)

And of course we're going to remember not to call the people that like anime elitist snobs or the people that don't idiots that wouldn't know art if it bit them.  We're also not going to discuss whether or not they're "cartoons".

That's all.  

Discuss.


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## Leopold (Jan 7, 2003)

try watching some of the more serious animes: Neon Genesis Evangelion, akira, Spriggan. These have more in common with hollywood action movies than the DBZ/Pokemon cartoons. These are chock full of quality drawings who look, live, and breathe like real actors and you can just get yourself lost in it and almost think these people are real as the story line is that..damn...good.

try watching some of the above series or even cowboy bebop, hellsing, or lodoss war and you'll be pleasantly amazed.


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## blackshirt5 (Jan 7, 2003)

OK, just re-read your post.  You dislike Lodoss, but yet you like *Kiki's Delivery Service* ? *Shrugs* No accounting for taste, I guess.


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## Regdar (Jan 7, 2003)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> *And of course we're going to remember not to call the people that like anime elitist snobs or the people that don't idiots that wouldn't know art if it bit them.  We're also not going to discuss whether or not they're "cartoons".
> 
> That's all.
> 
> Discuss. *




Bah Dink you're such an Elitist, idiot...


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## mmu1 (Jan 7, 2003)

Like a lot of things, Anime intially probably became popular because for a long time, it wasn't mainstream, and a lot of the things it deals with have natural geek appeal.  Quality had very little to do with, since like just about any entertainment produced in large volume, 95% of it is crap.

Still, given the sheer volume of it, that means there's actually a lot of very good anime out there - mainly feature films, though, since the production values tend to really take a nosedive on most series.


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## diaglo (Jan 7, 2003)

why do people stop to look at/rubberneck car wrecks?

why do people watch COPS or similar shows?

just b/c. i can't explain it.


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## Dinkeldog (Jan 7, 2003)

I know, Regdar.  I also like making futile attempts.  After all, it only took 6 minutes for diaglo to completely ignore me.


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## Wolfspirit (Jan 7, 2003)

For me it's probably that up until LotR, you couldn't really watch a good fantasty live action movie, whereas you had Lodoss Wars, or Princess Mononoke or what not.

Oh, and I believe the reason why people don't like Lodoss Wars is that it's got a lot of stereotypes, and seems like it's a DM's attempt to play Tolkein.

On the other hand, it's one of my favorite movies, Live action or anime.


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## Dr Midnight (Jan 7, 2003)

This reminds me, I have to go to Cafepress.com and make a 
DIE,
OTAKU,
DIE!!
T-shirt.


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## Lord Zardoz (Jan 7, 2003)

The easiest and most simple explanation for why people like Anime so much is quite simple.

There is probably a primal subconsious affinity for young women in skimpy sailor suits and tentacles.  This affinity is probably more pronounced in some people then others.

END COMMUNICATION


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## Numion (Jan 7, 2003)

Beats me. Only anime I've seen had some strange fight.. the bad guy tried to take the woman heros (girl really) panties of, during the fight, somehow, but the heroine had like gazillion pairs of panties on.. this seemed to frustrate the baddie to no end. Why's and how's I don't know. 

I wasn't impressed.


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## Dagger75 (Jan 7, 2003)

*My whole anime theory*

For Anime, I watched Robotech, the First part and the invid invasion. I hated southern cross.

 D-Ball Z -LAME as hell. Although all my players like it and said Epic Level D&D is kind of like Dragon Ball Z  

 Record of Lodoss Wars - I like it but can't watch the whole thing at once.

 Ghost in the shell was cool, Akira sucked, I was bored through it.

 Here is my theory on Anime, or Japanmation.  I think someone rented an Anime movie 15 years ago, we will call him Patient 0.

 Well Patient 0 saw this cartoon at blockbuster and his high school friends walked in on him watching cartoons.  He said it from Japan, it made for adults, anyway you wouldn't understand it. He thought it was stupid but he already told the lie so who cares.

 Well Friend #1 Rents the movie to see what was up, well he thinks its stupid but can't tell his freind that because then he would be made fun of fro "not getting it" so he tells everybody he liked it.

 Well at lunch Patient 0 and Freind 1 are discussing the Japanmation they saw to some other friends, well these other friends need to see what this is all about so they get the movie. And the whole things snowballs to what we have now.

 Most Anime sucks, I don't think anybody really likes it but just say they do.


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## Oni (Jan 7, 2003)

I can tell you some of the reasons that anime appeals to me.  

1.  I love animation, cartoons fascinate me, it's moving artwork. 

2.  Subject matters I find appealing are often used in anime, such as fantasy.  

3.  In my opinion anime in general tends to be more daring, it pushes the envelope more in regards to a number of elements than other genres (I don't really like calling anime a genre but I'm not sure what else to call it, it covers such a wide array of things, more than most people realize, that it doesn't really seem appropriate).


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## der_kluge (Jan 7, 2003)

I think Anime is popular, because it's on step away from pornography.

I mean, have you seen the girls in these things?

Other than that, I have absolutely no idea.


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## Tsyr (Jan 7, 2003)

Can we _please_ have a discussion one time about anime that doesn't make the (frankly silly) claims that the only reason people like anime is either A) It's "different" or B) It's got sexy girls in it.

Please?

As for the rest of it... I'm not going to enter into this arguement, despite being a (rabid) anime watcher. I refuse to justify my likes and dislikes, thank you, and every time a discussion like this comes up, it seems like Anime watchers are expected to stand up for themselves and justify to other people _why_ they like something that other people don't like. 

Look, it's as simple as this. I like anime. You don't. That's fine, though. I could also ask "Why do people like American sit-coms?" "Why do people watch sports?" or "Why do people like rap music?", all of which other people do, and I strongly dislike. But I don't ask you to justify yourself to me, and I don't feel I need to justify myself to you.

If you were asking "sell me on anime" or something like that, that would be one thing. You're not. Your asking me to justify something that needs no justification, and you already have an (evidently) strongly set view to begin with. No thanks. Not my type of fight.


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## Umbran (Jan 7, 2003)

Utrecht said:
			
		

> *I ask this because so much of what is available -either at the store or on television - seems well, bad.  *




Yes, well, that's just following Sturgeon's Law - "90% 0f everything is crud."  Most modern sitcoms are bad, but the genre is popular.  Most reality TV shows are horrid, but the genre is popular.  Most romance novels are tripe, but the genre is popular.  

You see the pattern?  The popularity of a genre is not particularly dependant on the apparent quality of many of the works within that genre.  

Plus, from another point of view, anime _isn't_ really popular in the USA. There's a few children's cartoons.  A few movies, none of which have done anything like what Hollywood would call serious business in this country.  Anime popularity is limited to kids (who are usually hooked on a particular show, and not teh genre as a whole), and a small subsection of adults...

Sort of like RPGs...


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## Numion (Jan 7, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *Can we please have a discussion one time about anime that doesn't make the (frankly silly) claims that the only reason people like anime is either A) It's "different" or B) It's got sexy girls in it.
> 
> Please?
> *




If you're not going to participate in this thread, what's it to you then?


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## Utrecht (Jan 7, 2003)

Tsyr, while I can understand your sentiment, I seriously ask the question - especially since I used to like Anime. 

However, now that I have children, I find that my time is more limited and as such have to be more discriminating about what I whatch and like to whatch quality (of which I agree some Anime is good).

I mean, when I go into my local Borders they have just about as much Anime as the have "drama" - now recognizing that Borders is not dumb and that they put stuff on the shelf that sells, I am wondering what I am missing - or rather what I have lost - but recognize that it ultimately may come down to "personal taste"

As what my personal preferences are - I actually own Record of Lodoss War - and just can't get past the low quality of animation and overall wooden story.  However Princess Mononoke was gorgeous and had a compelling story (I think) that left me thinking WTF????  (similar to what I thought of Akira).  so it is certainly not like I dismiss the genre of hand - but and trying to figure out why some of the other obviouslly lower quality stuff still sells.......


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## Utrecht (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: Re: [OT] Why is Anime so popular???*



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yes, well, that's just following Sturgeon's Law - "90% 0f everything is crud."  Most modern sitcoms are bad, but the genre is popular.  Most reality TV shows are horrid, but the genre is popular.  Most romance novels are tripe, but the genre is popular.
> 
> ...




Oh, I see the pattern and recognize it as a prime contributor - however, it seems that the percentage of good vs bad anime seems much higher than other forms of popular culture - which leads me two one of two conclusions....

1) I must be missing something - entirely possible
2) The "puplic" is missing something

Now I recognize that the truth lies somewhere in the middle - I am just trying to fugure out why I am not there........


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## Tsyr (Jan 7, 2003)

Numion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If you're not going to participate in this thread, what's it to you then?  *




I dunno... it bothers me, I guess. Even if I don't feel I need to defend anything, I dislike the implied insult behind those.


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## der_kluge (Jan 7, 2003)

This thread begs the question -

Are Japanese Gen-Xers gaga over 60s Hanna Barbara cartoons?


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## Utrecht (Jan 7, 2003)

Oni said:
			
		

> *I can tell you some of the reasons that anime appeals to me.
> 
> 1.  I love animation, cartoons fascinate me, it's moving artwork.
> 
> ...




1 and 2 I will certainly grant you....  However number 3 - Do you think that this is actually the case, it seems to me that Anime is as much at fault for rbeating the dead horse - after all how many versions of Denon Huntes are really needed?????

More thoughts on this would be appreciated.


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## King_Stannis (Jan 7, 2003)

Hated all anime....until my son started watching Dragonball and DBZ. Me and my wife were determined to at least try to understand the show a little. And you know what, they're pretty good shows. They don't take themselves too seriously - which is what turned me off to alot of the anime I watched in the past. If DB and DBZ are for "kids" and other anime is for the "adults", I'll gladly throw my lot in with the yungins'.


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## astralpwka (Jan 7, 2003)

I really got hooked on the Zoids series. Other fave movies are Street Fighter and Vampire Hunter D. I think I might have been diturbed by Wicked City... (shudder...)

I love the artwork. I wish I could draw anime and manga better and I am enthralled by those who are really good at it. (no really... enthralled!!!!) Its a different artistic medium that creates a different stylized human (or whatever) form whether female or male. 

Cartooning in any style is considered the lowest form of art (this according to my art teachers in college, who reminded me of this with everything I did... heh...).


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## Celebrim (Jan 7, 2003)

You just asked what is probably a very complex question.  I don't claim to know, though I can toss around some ideas.

Affinity for anime seems to be directly correllated to relatively early exposure.   For instance, my early exposure to Teenage Ninja Team Gatchaman (via Battle of the Planets) in the mid 70's gives me some appreciation for Anime even though I'm highly critical of it as an art form.   People without the early exposure rarely seem to develop a taste for it.  (I'm sure there are exceptions.)

Also, anime is underground, gothy, taboo, and well 'naughty'.   It is therefore hip to like anime and wear anime related articles in order to firmly place yourself in a particular subculture.  But in my experience, more people like anime than actually watch it.   And more people say they like it than actually like it.   Most people who do like it, have a small selection of anime that consider 'the good stuff', and tend to snear at those whose selection is different than there own.   This may or may not be related to the nostalgia thing I just mentioned.

In general, anime is alot cooler to look at than watch.  Anime is a very stylized, very visually evocative art form.  Even bad anime can produce very interesting visuals.

A couple of people have mentioned the porn angle, and that is not to be underestimated it.  Anime is generally pornagraphic or at least sexually stimulating, with highly exageratted idolized femine forms - very large prominated breasts, huge eyes, impossibly long and slender legs, narrow hips, long necks, masses of hair that seems to have a life of its own, and very revealing costumes that also seem at times to have lifes of thier own.   What hasn't been mentioned is that on the other hand, in addition to these subservient female ideals, anime features alot of powerful heroines who if not capable of controlling thier sexual urges, or at least capable of holding thier own in combat and otherwise taking care of themselves.   So, while not perfect, anime does have the angle of presenting young women with high central capable heroines that are generally lacking in movies.

Also, it is really important to put Anime in context.  At the time say Gatchaman, Robotech, Voltron, and Speed Racer came out, they really were light years ahead of most serious american animation which had arguably peaked in the WB years back in 40's and 50's.  They were new, they were different, and they were clearly targeted at a more mature audience than the alternative.  So, in context, it is very easy to understand how anime got a stong underground following in the college age and younger crowd.   As a preadolescent kid, those shows blew me away.

However, I do think that US anime has caught up to and even in many cased passed the Japaneese stuff if you compare good US toons to good Japaneese toons, and not lame US toons to good anime or big eyed, big headed, kids anime (the equivalent of say smurfs) to good US cartoons.  It is hard to argue that shows like GI Joe, The Dungeons & Dragons Cartoon, early Transformers, Batman: The Animated Series, The Simpsons, Pole Position, Alf Tales, The Totally Misfit Misadventures of Ed Grimley, The Real Ghostbusters, and so forth are not as well written (or better) than their Japaneese counterparts.   Likewise, it is hard to argue that the above shows don't obviously owe a great stylistic dept to earlier Japaneese anime. 

The real problem is that anime is on the whole just lame.  The writing tends to be terrible and seldom really addresses anything like a deep or original idea.   There are occasionally nature stewartship messages, and consequences of violence messages, but any sort of thesis that might be presented is generally buried under the incoherent and illogical activities that occur for the sake of presenting strange visuals, scantily clad females, and stylized light flashing combats.  In general, Western viewers - including myself - have long written off the incoherent plots as the inability to relate to the Japaneese mythos or problems in translation, but the more j-toons I watch the less I'm able to convince myself of this.  People who are fluent in Japaneese may feel free to correct me if they like, but I really think that there isn't an excuse - the writting is usually bad, choppy, childish, vulgar, and the plots muddled and trite.

That isn't to say that the whole artform is bankrupt, just that there is less quality on the whole than there might be, which I something you could say about movies in general.  There is certainly anime out there that isn't a waste of time, but in general 'anime' is not proof of superior quality of storytelling to say Jem and the Holograms or Rainbowbrite.


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## astralpwka (Jan 7, 2003)

oh... btw... I'm Goku!!!

<a href="http://tsr-corp.com/test" target="_blank"><IMG SRC="http://tsr-corp.com/test/goku.jpg" alt="I AM GOKU!!!" border=0></a>


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## EricNoah (Jan 7, 2003)

Anime is one of those things I don't "get", like pro wrestling, sports on TV, beer, reality TV, and SUVs.  There's just literally no attraction for me, no spark of interest that makes me want to have anything to do with it.  Kinda weird!  Of course D&D is something a lot of people don't "get" either.    And then there's Richard Roeper, who didn't "get" Fellowship of the Ring... So I guess I know the feeling of liking something and having others say, "Meh..."


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## Apok (Jan 7, 2003)

My own personal feelings lie along the same lines as Tsyr's.  Trying to figure out why some people like anime is like trying to find out why some people like Chuck Norris flicks or Indy movies or vanilla ice cream or liver or... I think you get the idea.

It's all about personal taste.  There is no magical equation that you can solve and go, "A-ha!  So _ that's _ why people watch it!"  Some people just like it and others don't.  Given what you mentioned about not liking Lodoss War but loving Mononoke Hime and Akira, I'd say you just fall into the category of those people who like things that are well done.  Meaning, you like high-quality anime with deep storylines.  Absolutely nothing wrong with this, it just means that some types of anime aren't going to appeal to you.  You can apply the same logic to movies, music, TV, foods, etc.  Anime isn't special or unusual, we just want to think it is.  

Why do I like anime?  I dunno.  I just do, and that's good enough for me.


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## Shard O'Glase (Jan 7, 2003)

What Tsyr said.

Except I do like some anime for the sexy girls.  But I watch some standard movies just for the sexy girls in it.  I'm shallow like that, and proud of it.


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## Shard O'Glase (Jan 7, 2003)

astralpwka said:
			
		

> *I really got hooked on the Zoids series. Other fave movies are Street Fighter and Vampire Hunter D. I think I might have been diturbed by Wicked City... (shudder...)
> 
> *




I really iked the zoid series where they just drive aorund, and have zoid competitions. (I want to see a new season of this) the zoid series with some revolutionary war thing going on I don't like, but maybe it's something I should give a chance.  It just seemd to Gi Joeish.


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## Sixchan (Jan 7, 2003)

I don't really know why I like it.  I guess its because there's a different way of doing things in Anime.  An Anime Comedy is done Completely different to an American Sitcom.  It's really the same for any Genre.  The only time I've ever been truly horrified by any Dark Drama was in Evangelion (Particularly the scene where the Dummy Plug is used).  The only time I've ever come close to Vomiting watching something was During [tLot]Overfiend.  Somehow, Animes have more power over me.


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## Utrecht (Jan 7, 2003)

Celebrim,

Thanks - that was kind of what I was after - and seems to coroberate what I was seeing....

Again, this is not to slam those who like Anime.  After all, I like Kylie Minogue and Britney Spears while recognizing for what it is.....


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## Xarlen (Jan 7, 2003)

I would say that the reason a lot of anime is Lame, is because a lot of the stuff that comes Here is lame. There really isn't a whole lot of *good* anime that's been translated for American viewing.

Records of the Lodoss Wars, yes. Princess Mononoke, Yes. Ninja Scroll, Yes.  Cowboy Bebop, yes. Uh... What else?

I was turned off to Anime because basicly I couldn't find any *good* anime. But what else is there? Then I started getting my hands on some anime straight from Japan, that's subtitled.

For instance, a show about an organization in Japan that hunts down Witches (Craft users who use magic in detrimintal fashion towards society; ie criminals), called Witch Hunter Robin. It's very good.

Then there's Princess Tutu, which has an interesting take on magic, where a writer of a book dies, before he finishes, and thus magic starts bringing the story to life, to make it run its' course, because stories are magic. 

All it takes is sifting through the crap to get to the gems. Like any other median. There are a few good sit-coms (Signfeld anyone?), and a few others, but the rest are just... ungodly. 

As for Anime=Porn, um... Has anyone checked out comic books? Those women have huge hoots, skimpy outfits, and still do superhero stuff. 

Anime Production Studios do all genres, from action to romance to fantasy to porn. Sort've like Warner Brothers putting out a lot of various genres of movies.


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## Sixchan (Jan 7, 2003)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> *Also, anime is underground, gothy, taboo, and well 'naughty'.   It is therefore hip to like anime and wear anime related articles in order to firmly place yourself in a particular subculture.  But in my experience, more people like anime than actually watch it.   And more people say they like it than actually like it.   Most people who do like it, have a small selection of anime that consider 'the good stuff', and tend to snear at those whose selection is different than there own.   This may or may not be related to the nostalgia thing I just mentioned.*




IME, Anime isn't always so cool.  Almost anyone who I try to enguage in a conversation about Anime tells me bluntly to Shut Up, or that I'm really, REALLY wierd.  Of course, if I talk about Akira Specificly, I am more likely to be shouted at, because almost everyone I know has seen Akira, and almost everyone I know LOVES Akira.  And I can't fathom why.  I thought it was Boring.


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## maddman75 (Jan 7, 2003)

My name is Maddman, and I'm a former Anime hater.  But some good people in the nuthouse talked me into watching Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust.  Now I'm all better!

Seriously though, if you're one of those people (like I used to be) who sees the DBZ commercials and says "What's the appeal of THAT?" take a look at VHD.  The thing looks like it took place inside a Rembradt.  Good story as well.  I need to get around to watching Lodoss and Cowboy Bebop too.

But I can't take all of it.  I tried watching Slayers, but it was too much.  Too stylistic, to the point of being distracting.  I like a more realistic feeling.


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## Umbran (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: [OT] Why is Anime so popular???*



			
				Utrecht said:
			
		

> *Oh, I see the pattern and recognize it as a prime contributor - however, it seems that the percentage of good vs bad anime seems much higher than other forms of popular culture - which leads me two one of two conclusions....
> 
> 1) I must be missing something - entirely possible
> 2) The "puplic" is missing something
> *




Yes, but it should also lead you to a third possibility...

3)While it _seems_ that the percentage of good vs bad anime is higher than other forms, this is not actually the case.

After all, have you actually counted?  Doesn't the apparent mystery dissolve if in fact anime has about the same crud/gem ratio as everything else?  When trying to reach a conclusion, it pays to not trust a _seeming_.


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## Chun-tzu (Jan 7, 2003)

Utrecht, another thing you have to realize is that the American public really is "missing" something, in a way. Your more die-hard anime fans probably have some kind of access to far better anime than the stuff that's generally available on Cartoon Network or the like. A lot of really good stuff has NOT made its way over here yet.

But some lucky folks (like me) have access to fansubs (subbed by fans), and have been exposed to some really good anime that hasn't been killed by subpar voice acting or chopped up in editing for American TV standards.

A lot of my favorite anime shows ARE very different from stuff that's available here. Many anime series no longer follow the trite idea that nothing should change from one show to the next. Action shows aren't castrated the way American ones are, like G.I. Joe, where no one ever got shot. It is also very visually dynamic, as someone said earlier. The Matrix was directly inspired by action anime.

Anime is also no different from American comics in its typical depiction of the female form. Yes, there are more extreme forms of anime (hentai), but there are also adult comics here in the U.S.

Speaking of comics, anime is frequently based on Japanese comics, manga. Manga is FAR more diverse than American comics are, these days. Slam Dunk! is one of my favorite anime shows, based on a high school basketball team. Understand that I have zero interest in sports or basketball. But this show really has managed to capture drama, humor, and action of a sports team, because the creator understands that there's a lot more sports than winning or losing (which is what many sports movies are reduced to).

Edit - While I was typing, Xarlen posted a few of the things I just posted. Darn slow fingers!


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## Numion (Jan 7, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *
> Anime is also no different from American comics in its typical depiction of the female form. Yes, there are more extreme forms of anime (hentai), but there are also adult comics here in the U.S.
> *




Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a tendency to draw female forms quite a bit younger in anime / manga ? Sometimes a bit suspicious... 

i'm no expert, so please do correct if I'm wrong.


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## seasong (Jan 7, 2003)

I like anime for being an attractive medium in which the following stories have been told...

Lain
Noir
Read or Die
Slayers (the Claire Bible storyline)
Boogiepop Phantom
Cowboy Bebop
Bubblegum Crisis 2044 (but not the others)

...and numerous others.

I certainly don't consider it a sacred medium, however. There is literally a ton of crap that I'm unwilling to watch. But I'm glad I saw the above stories, and I'll continue to watch anime as long as stories of that calibre continue to be told in that medium.


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## Khorod (Jan 7, 2003)

I've just gotten into anime in the past year.

The art and music is frequently very good- definitely better than the vast majority of American cartoons currently made today.

The storylines, while sometimes somewhat trite, are usually approached in a new way.  Not to mention that looking at everything else on TV today, even the worst anime (of what I watch, not the afternoon cartoon-anime) has more meaning and message.

Animes are willing to go deeper into character development, and grittier.  They put in genuine surprises of the sort that books, movies, and tv's of late have rarely provided.

animate Batman was so cool, arguably, because it was more like an American anime in some ways than like a conventional cartoon.  Looking at mainstream cartoons today, you see that nothing like that is currently made.

I think part of the secret is that anime is not a genre, its a type of audio-visual entertainment.  I only like certain genres of anime.

Of course, some anime is really annoying.  It uses a japanese filtern on emotions and interactions that are sometimes difficult to understand.  Where that's a problem, I watch something else.

Trigun good.


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## Sixchan (Jan 7, 2003)

Numion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a tendency to draw female forms quite a bit younger in anime / manga ? Sometimes a bit suspicious...
> 
> i'm no expert, so please do correct if I'm wrong. *




I remember seeing a show about Anime that explained this as being because Japanese Women usually look a lot younger than they are.


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## Barastrondo (Jan 7, 2003)

Something that seems to have been critically overlooked in this thread is that anime is not only popular with boys, but also with girls. Seriously. I mean, you can be wandering through the video store and watch teenage girls converge on the anime section (or on the manga book rack nearby), looking for the latest release of one of the series targeted at — you guessed it — young female viewers and readers. Sure, you have creepy guys watching Sailor Moon because they like the thought of schoolgirls in short skirts, but the show itself wasn't aimed at that demographic, even by the Western studios that imported and translated it. 

Because comic books and animation just plain aren't seen as "kids only" stuff in Japan, manga and anime as media are able to explore genre combinations (and turn a huge profit!) that the average American would never think of as appropriate subject material for a "cartoon." This is probably why some of the most infamous stuff is the pornographic material — it had early market penetration in the US, was unlike most anything America was offering at the time, and was certainly memorable. To some people, though, their first exposure to the stuff formed a first impression they could never get past — "Anime? Oh yeah, that pervert stuff from Japan." It's understandable how a person could get to thinking that way, particularly as the sort of bootleg dealers that hang out at conventions prefer to show the hardcore stuff, but I imagine it became quite a surprise once the other genres started filtering into our video stores. 

I don't think you can cite any one particular reason as why anime has gotten as popular as it is —_some aspects sell to the nostalgic folks who discovered this in their youth (Robotech), some to young kids who like the shows and their tie-in products (Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh), some to teenage girls who like being targeted with romantic fantasy in settings more outlandish than Hollywood is willing to chance (Fushigi Yugi), some to younger boys who like over-the-top battles (Dragonball). The hardcore anime buffs may appreciate multiple genres for all of the above reasons, but I don't think there are that many people who thinks that all anime is great just because it's anime. I mean, do you honestly know anyone who thinks that all American comic books are great just because they're American comic books? 

Studios and TV networks like it, though; it's a lot cheaper to obtain the rights to an anime show and pay for translation and dubbing than it is to fund a show that's animated from scratch. So expect the trend of importing to continue; it's pretty durn profitable if you can find the right show.


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## Sixchan (Jan 7, 2003)

Barastrondo said:
			
		

> *Something that seems to have been critically overlooked in this thread is that anime is not only popular with boys, but also with girls. Seriously. I mean, you can be wandering through the video store and watch teenage girls converge on the anime section (or on the manga book rack nearby), looking for the latest release of one of the series targeted at — you guessed it — young female viewers and readers. Sure, you have creepy guys watching Sailor Moon because they like the thought of schoolgirls in short skirts, but the show itself wasn't aimed at that demographic, even by the Western studios that imported and translated it.*




Another thing just as overlooked is that not all Girls who enjoy Anime watch Sailor Moon and the like.  I've met plenty of girls who like stuff like Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion and such but hate Sailor Moon with a passion.


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## jdavis (Jan 7, 2003)

I think a problem here is that you are lumping Anime into a genre. This isn't like asking why people like Space Fantasy movies, it's like asking why people like movies. Do you not like Hentai, do you not like fantasy anime, do you not like science fiction anime, or drama anime, children's anime, romance anime? I could go on and on. I like action movies, whether they are animated or not, I like science fiction, being animated has little to do with it. What first drew me to anime was the fact that they do stuff on a scale that is not possible in live action. They did battle scenes much larger than Helm's Deep decades ago with anime, they did detailed science fiction for years, You still don't see alot of detailed science fiction in live action (how many sci fi movies take place indoors or on just a couple of sets.) I also like the fact that anime isn't held down by silly political correct crap or the whole it's for kids bit, in the GI Joe cartoon everybody had a gun and nobody ever got shot...... give me a break. If American cartoons were more realistic I'd love them too (the original Jonny Quest cartoon is my all time favorite). Saying I think DragonBall Z is bad so anime is bad is like saying Battlefield Earth was a bad movie therefore all movies are bad. There is as much anime out there as there is American live action shows and it is just as diverse. There are cultural differences but I'm sure to alot of people worldwide American movies make little sense, heck alot of American movies make little sense to Ameriacans.

You will never get a decent answer to this, it's like asking why do people like music, it's too vague and generalized to get a definate answer. Not to mention that Everybody likes different things, thats just part of life, just because you don't like something that doesn't make it bad, it's all about personal opinion and taste, and those things differ from person to person.


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## Chun-tzu (Jan 7, 2003)

Numion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a tendency to draw female forms quite a bit younger in anime / manga ? Sometimes a bit suspicious...
> 
> i'm no expert, so please do correct if I'm wrong. *




A lot of anime shows do feature children, young teens, and teens. In some of the shows with teens, the females are pretty, um, impressive. Again, I'd point to American comics featuring teens, like Teen Titans and Legion of Super-Heroes. Many of the female characters have quite impressive figures.


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## Sixchan (Jan 7, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A lot of anime shows do feature children, young teens, and teens. In some of the shows with teens, the females are pretty, um, impressive. Again, I'd point to American comics featuring teens, like Teen Titans and Legion of Super-Heroes. Many of the female characters have quite impressive figures. *




Mind you, pretty often there are some surprisingly flat-chested characters too (and they are usually the target of many jokes.  But I still liked Aeka better than Ryoko in Tenchi Muyo!).


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## Celebrim (Jan 7, 2003)

I think jdavis speaks wisely.   We are making an even worse assumption than assuming that everyone who liked say Toy Story II, likes Batman the Animated Series, South Park, and the Smurfs, because, whether or not the quality is superior, certainly the breadth of material explored by Japaneese animation is a good deal broader than what is explored by the American counterpart.   

And I feel slighted enough to point out to Barastrondo that not everyone overlooked the popularity of Anime with women.  On the other hand, I also think that Barastrondo is right on the mark when he says that there is no one reason for anime's popularity.


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## Utrecht (Jan 7, 2003)

Ok, that is certainly true - classifying all anime as one entity is grossly unfair to it as a medium.

So the question then becomes, why is all of this "good" stuff that is aparently available in Japan not being imported for mass consumption here in the States or shown on the Cartoon Network?


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## jdavis (Jan 7, 2003)

Utrecht said:
			
		

> *Ok, that is certainly true - classifying all anime as one entity is grossly unfair to it as a medium.
> 
> So the question then becomes, why is all of this "good" stuff that is aparently available in Japan not being imported for mass consumption here in the States or shown on the Cartoon Network? *




There is the perception that American audiences just won't get it and there is the perception that anime=cartoons and that cartoons=children and there is alot of anime that just isn't fit for children. In America cartoons are a good marketing tool for toys so we tend to see anime that might cross over into toy production. 

I think you are just now starting to see that trend change with Cartoon Network starting Adult Swim, more good anime will make it over to tv here, and there is a ton of anime that is released on video and dvd in America now, I live in rural Kentucky but the Suncoast at the mall has a whole wall from celing to floor with nothing but Anime DVD's, matter of fact the Anime section is as big if not bigger than the Drama section. When I first started watching anime in the late '80's all you could find was a couple of poorly edited and dubbed shows at the local video store, they didn't even refer to them as anime.


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## Chun-tzu (Jan 7, 2003)

Utrecht said:
			
		

> *So the question then becomes, why is all of this "good" stuff that is aparently available in Japan not being imported for mass consumption here in the States or shown on the Cartoon Network? *




I agree with JDavis. First, it IS coming. But the process takes time. There's all sorts of licensure and dubbing and distribution rights and stuff to sort out, first. But the anime invasion has begun, and it's already changed the face of animation.

There's also the dilemma of how to market these shows. Neon Genesis Evangelion, Noir, Cowboy Bebop are all too adult for kids. So how do you market it? Who do you market it to? People don't watch stuff just because it's good. Good TV shows die all the time.

Ask yourself, why doesn't Sci Fi show, you know, really good sci-fi? Why doesn't HBO show really good movies? Because it all costs money. Cartoon Network only has so much money to acquire new shows, and they have to choose, same as any other network. But the demand is there, hence the new Anime Network coming, and the explosion of anime shows on other networks, like TechTV.


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## Geoff Watson (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: [OT] Why is Anime so popular???*



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yes, but it should also lead you to a third possibility...
> 
> ...




It could also be that the better stuff is available to foreigners. They don't get to see the really bad stuff, so they think that anime is better on average.

Geoff.


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## RyanL (Jan 7, 2003)

I used to like anime a lot when I was younger.  I think I know why.  Anime and manga tend to focus more on, and do a better job with, interpersonal relationships between young characters than similar American forms of entertainment.  I honestly can't think of an American medium which portrays teenage and young adult romance in such a frank, yet aloof and entertaining, manner.  As I get older, I don't enjoy Anime/manga as much.

-Ryan


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## jdavis (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [OT] Why is Anime so popular???*



			
				Geoff Watson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It could also be that the better stuff is available to foreigners. They don't get to see the really bad stuff, so they think that anime is better on average.
> 
> Geoff. *




Once again that all boils down to personal preference. My wife loves every single show that comes on Lifetime, I think they are all crap, who is right, well we are both right. That's how opinions work I can not like something and she can like something and it is ok, there is nothing wrong with either of us and neither of us is wrong, it's just a opinion not a fact. What is bad anime and what is good anime? how would you measure that without giving a personal opinion?


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## Tsyr (Jan 7, 2003)

Sixchan said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Another thing just as overlooked is that not all Girls who enjoy Anime watch Sailor Moon and the like.  I've met plenty of girls who like stuff like Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion and such but hate Sailor Moon with a passion. *




Then again, there are plenty of non "weird guys who like schoolgirls in skirts" guys who actualy can enjoy Sailor Moon. It's no masterpeice or anything, not by a longshot, but if you get fansubs of it (Or even the american DVD release with subtitles), it's a completely different show than what was released on TV. And I mean completely different. Plot-changingly different. And it's not a bad show, really. It's... "fun", I guess, in a way that I don't find DBZ to be.


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## frankthedm (Jan 8, 2003)

The anime market has suffered over the last 5 years or so in quality due to the dip in quality of a lot of japanese productions. The older stuff is often better than the follow the formula anime that is now being ported over from japan.

The older classics are worth tracking down, just as an example;

Urusei Yatsura : the rights are held by Animeigo.com, a little dated but its shockingly different! Whole genres of anime grew from this one.

tomobiki-cho:THE UY fansite


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## Barastrondo (Jan 8, 2003)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> *And I feel slighted enough to point out to Barastrondo that not everyone overlooked the popularity of Anime with women. *




Whoops. Sorry, man. I said "seems to be," but was el wrongo. 



> _And from Sixchan:_
> *Another thing just as overlooked is that not all Girls who enjoy Anime watch Sailor Moon and the like. I've met plenty of girls who like stuff like Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion and such but hate Sailor Moon with a passion.*




Which is very true, but the greater point that I didn't quite so accurately make is the specific targeting of the female demographic. A lot of anime tries to hit both male and female viewers equally, by balancing heavy romance and personal emotional issues with dynamic combat and displays of cool power and more "traditional" lures for male viewers. Escaflowne, for instance. But some of them don't even try for that balance. They go for the girls, and if the guys follow, so be it. 

Manga and anime both have plenty of offerings aimed with laser-like accuracy at female readers and viewers, which is something that is rarely done with the same media in the States (what percentage of DC and Marvel's titles is aimed specifically at female readers?). Even then, there's so much variety that you can't really call the female-oriented material genre, any more than Transformers and action movies are the same genre because they're largely aimed at males. 

This is why I twitch a bit (like most of the people still following this thread, I'm sure) at statements that imply that the popularity of the medium comes from the medium being designed to specifically cater to certain male fantasies. It's kind of the same thing as that "Peter Jackson named his movie The Two Towers to capitalize on the 9/11 disaster!" screed; it's just as easy to disprove, and therefore just as outlandishly surprising to see people say it like they believe it.


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## s/LaSH (Jan 8, 2003)

Why so popular? Perhaps (regardless of arguments about whether it's really popular, or what anime really is, etcetc) because anime caters to a wider market than occidental cartoons. It's been said before, most people think that cartoons are either kiddy shows or three-panel newspaper gags. You look at what comes out of Japan, and... well, I think that they're more willing to do stuff that can be interesting than just slavishly churn out another soap opera or medical drama show.

But you don't see the proper stuff in English because 'cartoons are for kids'. Which is stupid. Go watch Ghost In The Shell and see if you can spot the bits that were taken from St Paul (I watched it with an ex-priest and we were both quite surprised at that), then say toons are exclusively for kids.

I don't know if it's been animated (probably not), but one of the funnest things I've read recently was Hikaru No Go, about this kid who plays Go, and there's this ghost and some really good players, and it's _really good_. It's not even in English, and I don't read Japanese so I got the manga equivalent of a fansub. But when was the last time anyone read a long, continuing story about people who play a strategic board game? It's that kind of new experience that turns me onto certain anime.

And I say certain anime for a reason, because most of what's out there sucks. I mean, people probably like it... look at Pokemon. Artistic merit? I think not. I mean I like shows that I like, whether anime or not, largely because they have explosions, now that I think about it. That's probably not the primary reason, but there are an awful lot of things blowing up in everything I watch. And it's because the Japanese do a good combat scene (when they want to; uncensored DBZ isn't always good, but when it is good it's very good) that a lot of that's popular with action junkies like myself.

Of course, having just watched Kiki's Delivery Service (subbed), I can say that quality and fun doesn't correlate directly to explosions.

To reiterate my point: Variety. That's what I blame for popularity.


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## Chun-tzu (Jan 8, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> *I don't know if it's been animated (probably not), but one of the funnest things I've read recently was Hikaru No Go...*




Yes, this series has been out as anime since 2001. There are over 53 episodes so far, and it's still going.


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## Henry (Jan 8, 2003)

The only thing that keeps me from "getting" most anime is the impossiblities of anatomy that most anime I see takes on. Maybe it breaks the Golden Ratio too much for my tastes, or something - but trying to watch it for too long makes my head hurt. Physically.

Most traditional animation I can watch, but not Japanese Manga.


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## Dinkeldog (Jan 8, 2003)

I like good animated features, whether Japanese or American.  Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away are among my favorite films, alongside Lilo & Stitch, Disney's Little Mermaid, and Disney's Hunchback.  Star Blazers was one of my favorite series of all time.  I just don't really care whether they're "anime" or "cartoons" to other people.


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## Black Omega (Jan 8, 2003)

And the Japanese DBZ is massively different from the US release.  There's a reason why the equivilant of 26 eps are cut out to make it a show for 10 year olds.

Have to agree though, it's hard to answer the question.  Anime is a medium, not a genre.  And still for the most part if something is animated it is assumed to be kid friendly in the US.  I've found Overfiend in the kids section in a video rental store before.  After all, animated means for kids.

I can't really say I like all anime, but there is plenty of anime I do like, very much.  Anime ranges from disturbing, to light hearted to serious and even downright silly.   It'sa not for everyone, but then, what is?


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## jdavis (Jan 8, 2003)

> Have to agree though, it's hard to answer the question. Anime is a medium, not a genre. And still for the most part if something is animated it is assumed to be kid friendly in the US. I've found Overfiend in the kids section in a video rental store before. After all, animated means for kids




Well I bet that was a eye opener for the children in your town. Overfiend usually comes plastered with warning stickers about how this movie is not for anyone who may be offended (by anything in any catagory, they hit 'em all) and children should not be allowed to even touch the tape.


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## Black Omega (Jan 8, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well I bet that was a eye opener for the children in your town. Overfiend usually comes plastered with warning stickers about how this movie is not for anyone who may be offended (by anything in any catagory, they hit 'em all) and children should not be allowed to even touch the tape. *



Needless to say I did suggest someone at the store might want to watch it and find a better spot for it.  I'm guessing no one had rented it yet, or the store would already have gotten hit over it.


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## Epametheus (Jan 8, 2003)

Heh.  Anime is pretty much the only thing I watch anymore -- I don't even find western live action shows to be that interesting anymore, let alone western animated shows.

Well first off, I won't deny that there's plenty of anime that's filth.  I generally succeed in not watching it.  

I find comparing anime with American animation to be fairly pointless -- even Digimon has a real plot, and that really is a kid's show.  When I actually find a western animated show to be good (like Batman Beyond), it's in part because the show reminds me of anime I've already seen.  On the other hand, Transformers: Armada, which is actually an anime that's been brought over here, is something that I regard as a genuinely bad show -- probably due in part to the fact that it reminds me a lot of western animation.

Random bit:  There's a very simple answer to why girls in anime are drawn fairly young.  It's because they are generally _supposed_ to be young.  The legal age of consent in Japan is *13*, though it varies by local.  The legal age of marriage is 18 for males and 16 for females.  The age of majority is 20.  What's defined as jailbait here in the US is defined as fair game over in Japan; they simply have a different set of standards.

Oh, and a lot of the girls in short skirts are actually wearing their school uniforms.

With that out of the way...

I generally watch most anime for the plotlines.  Some anime is good despite the lack of real plot -- Cowboy Bebop being a case in point (most of Bebop's plot is taken care of in about 5 episodes spread across the series, even though it's a 26 ep series).  Some shows, like Trigun or Noir, simply take their good sweet time getting around to the plot.  Kenshin doesn't have its real plotline until ep 28 or so, but the Shishio arc (which is about 30 episodes) actually validates the existence of the show.  Eva, on the other hand, is plot intensive from the very beginning, and so is Saikano.  Basically, I like for the shows that I'm watching to actually have a point to them.

I wouldn't say that anime is popular; just a few shows are actually popular, while the rest simply have cult followings.

Edit: just rewording a sentence.


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## Alzrius (Jan 8, 2003)

Epametheus said:
			
		

> *Heh.  Anime is pretty much the only thing I watch anymore -- I don't even find western live action shows to be that interesting anymore, let alone western animated shows.
> 
> Well first off, I won't deny that there's plenty of anime that's filth.  I generally succeed in not watching it.*



*

I wouldn't go that far. Some anime isn't good, and some is certainly damn smutty, but calling it filth seems a bit much.




Random bit:  There's a very simple answer to why girls in anime are drawn fairly young.  It's because they are generally supposed to be young.  The legal age of consent in Japan is 13, though it varies by local.  The legal age of marriage is 18 for males and 16 for females.  The age of majority is 20.  As awful as it may sound, what's defined as jailbait here in the US is defined as fair game over in Japan.

Click to expand...



Actually, as I heard it, the age of consent was 14, not 13, and a few years ago it was changed to 18. I could have heard wrong, but I'm pretty sure thats the case. Of course, the rule in Japan is "if its not public, its not a problem" so the jailbait comment remains very true, but that doesn't necessarily make it awful. Japan is just more open about sex and sexuality. Just because younger girls can and do become sexually active there doesn't necessarily mean its rape or molestation.





			I wouldn't say that anime is popular; just a few shows are actually popular, while the rest simply have cult followings.
		
Click to expand...



Anime is certainly popular, its just more or less popular in different places. Its extremely popular in Japan, for example, and its slowly moving into the mainstream here in America, which is basically a good thing, even though the fans of anime here in America often have to deal with it being warped and changed from how it was, and this can lead to various controveries (such as the highly popular and successful DBZ being dumped on by other anime fans for no real reason. It's a great anime with over a decade of history, yet people continue to rag on it without even bothering to explain why).

A good place to look for a potpourri of answers to questions about anime is Animenation's Ask John archives: http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn_archive.php*


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## Black Omega (Jan 8, 2003)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, as I heard it, the age of consent was 14, not 13, and a few years ago it was changed to 18. I could have heard wrong, but I'm pretty sure thats the case. Of course, the rule in Japan is "if its not public, its not a problem" so the jailbait comment remains very true, but that doesn't necessarily make it awful. Japan is just more open about sex and sexuality. Just because younger girls can and do become sexually active there doesn't necessarily mean its rape or molestation.*



According to interpol.int the age is 13, though local laws might change that for specific areas.  

*



			fans of anime here in America often have to deal with it being warped and changed from how it was,
		
Click to expand...


*I can understand many of the changes.  There are significant cultural differences.  I thought that was a big reason why  the Final Fantasy movie didn't do well.

On the other hand, other changes, like DBZ, are just done to completely change the anime's target audience.


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## Alzrius (Jan 8, 2003)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *I can understand many of the changes.  There are significant cultural differences.  I thought that was a big reason why  the Final Fantasy movie didn't do well.*




I disagree on the changes. Americentrocism shouldn't be promoted. Let's learn about other cultures, not mangle what they do to fit our worldview.

Ironically though, the Final Fantasy movie was an American production, made in America, for Americans. There were no cultural differences to change. It didn't do so well simply because it didn't live up to peoples' expectations of what a Final Fantasy production should be.


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## hong (Jan 8, 2003)

*MSTied Lodoss War*

ANYway.

Has anyone seen or done an MST3k job on Lodoss War?

Frikkin' po-faced series. Give me a dragon slave any day.


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## Kilmore (Jan 8, 2003)

Okay, in defense of Lodoss Wars, I'll relate a few things I remember from hearing the man responsible, Ryu Mizuno, speak in Chicago.

Yes, Lodoss is very D&D based.  Mr. Mizuno apparently had a lot to do with bringing RPG's over to Japan, and in fact, the convention he spoke at was the second US convention he'd been to, the first being a fan at GenCon sometime in the mid 80's.

Lodoss Wars is taken from a series of books that Mizuno wrote based on his D&D game.  At this time, western style fantasy had not taken root in Japan yet, so he was a pioneer of the genre over there.

He really likes the Celtic / Tolkien thing and deliberately took things in that direction rather than making it more freeform fantasy like Slayers.

And his elves has the real long ears because they were designed for the anime by an artist who usually works on Gundams, and they usually have antennae on the sides of their heads.


That said, I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with Hong.    DragonSlaving Lina from Slayers rocks!


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## Sixchan (Jan 8, 2003)

*Re: MSTied Lodoss War*



			
				hong said:
			
		

> *ANYway.
> 
> Has anyone seen or done an MST3k job on Lodoss War?
> 
> Frikkin' po-faced series. Give me a dragon slave any day. *




This is the reason I think that they should continue to make some bad anime (and bad, lemony fanfiction of good anime).  No matter how bad an anime is, you'll almost always feel better after reading an MST of it.


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## Utrecht (Jan 8, 2003)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> this can lead to various controveries (such as the highly popular and successful DBZ being dumped on by other anime fans for no real reason. It's a great anime with over a decade of history, yet people continue to rag on it without even bothering to explain why).




Actually I can understand why DBZ is dumped on.  The couple of times that I have attempted to watch it I as completely turned off by the animation.  It looked and felt rushed...  Because of that, I never seriously bothered to get into the "plot" (Which simply seemed to be words spliced together to get to the next fight scene)


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## Numion (Jan 9, 2003)

I have to say that I don't like anime very much. Seemed kinda stupid how things were drawn, like yelling humans look just... really lame. And there seems to be a lot of (prolonged) yelling. 

It seems though that I've been too quick judge; out of interest I checked out an episode of Cowboy Bebop (with a name like that it's bound to suck, right?, and my prejudices have (once again ) been proven right). 

It didn't suck. 

It was intriguing, though I didn't get everything in it. just goes to show that it pays to try new things once in a while. Now I've DLed episodes 15- something, because those were only ones available. Are those any good? 

But you can't argue that _some_ people don't watch it for the petite woman figures that are clothed like hookers.


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## Alzrius (Jan 9, 2003)

Utrecht said:
			
		

> *Actually I can understand why DBZ is dumped on.  The couple of times that I have attempted to watch it I as completely turned off by the animation.  It looked and felt rushed...  Because of that, I never seriously bothered to get into the "plot" (Which simply seemed to be words spliced together to get to the next fight scene) *




I disagree. As you go on the animation is incredibly smooth, and it wasn't rushed since it was made after the manga, so they knew exactly what they were doing. And you're synopsis of the plot is...well...wrong. A big thing people rag about is the "meaningless" fights, but that isn't true at all. There is depth and reasons why the battles happen, most people just don't seem to want to look into that at all, being put off by the fact the fights take so long to finish and are so high-powered.


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## Chun-tzu (Jan 9, 2003)

Dragonball Z really deserves credit for a lot of things. Cartoon Network calls it the best action cartoon of all time, and you'd be really hard pressed to find one that's even in the same league. Everyone knows that action sells. But action is still pretty hard to do; many, many shows and movies try, but very few can pull it off the way Dragonball Z does, time and time and time again.

The plots may not be deep, but they're definitely there. The characters even >gasp< grow and change over time. The show also doesn't take itself too seriously. And if you consider Goku and the others to be super-heroes (why not? they have super-powers, they fight evil), then Goku is probably the world's premiere Asian super-hero (there sure aren't any major ones in American comics).


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## Sixchan (Jan 9, 2003)

I can understand why people like DBZ, but just once, _just once_, I'd like someone to attack during a speech or when Goku's charging up his spirit-bomb attack or whatever.  And I mean aside from the very cool scene where you meet Future Trunks and he picks up the Earth destroying ball of energy and gloats until Frieza sends a tiny pellet of energy into the giant ball to destroy it.  Coolest scene _ever_ in DBZ.  I wish there was more of it.


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## Black Omega (Jan 9, 2003)

Sixchan said:
			
		

> *I can understand why people like DBZ, but just once, just once, I'd like someone to attack during a speech or when Goku's charging up his spirit-bomb attack or whatever.*



Sounds like something from the PC's are not fictional heros thread.  DBZ has certain conventions all characters follow, good and bad.  Don't attack during power ups.  Don't attack during speeches.  The characters all want a good battle so both good guys and bad have given their opponents time to power up before. The people who would cheat and take shortcuts never get powerful enough to be a factor in the series.

For the record though, Goku is attacked while charging up his spirit bomb, more than once, in fact.  The bad guys have to be kept busy or distracted to let him get that attack off.  I won't say more because there is a great example of this coming up in the last eps of DBZ Cartoon network will be showing, evnetually.


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## jdavis (Jan 9, 2003)

Sixchan said:
			
		

> *I can understand why people like DBZ, but just once, just once, I'd like someone to attack during a speech or when Goku's charging up his spirit-bomb attack or whatever.  And I mean aside from the very cool scene where you meet Future Trunks and he picks up the Earth destroying ball of energy and gloats until Frieza sends a tiny pellet of energy into the giant ball to destroy it.  Coolest scene ever in DBZ.  I wish there was more of it. *




It's sort of like wishing that somebody would unmask Spiderman when he is knocked out or that somebody would just shoot Batman in the head when he wasn't looking. I wish Bond villans would stop putting him into terrifing death traps and just kill him, BAM one to the head, movie is over bad guy wins, would that go over well? No we have to tie him up over a pool of sharks and slowly lower him in while the villian leaves to do something else. It's just part of how TV and movies work.

It amazes me how many people bad mouth Dragon Ball yet it has Millions and Millions of fans and there are more than 500 episodes (the Simpsons have only 300 by comparison). Gee they must be doing something right. I think the problem is that a lot of older people watch a couple of episodes and don't like the whole series. Well being that the target audience is children and teens it is only logical that it isn't always going to impress adults. It does very well within it's targeted audience, so does wrestling, so does Star Trek and so does Law and Order. Outside of the target audience your results may vary. It's ok for you to not like it or get it, your not the ones they are aiming at.


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## Epametheus (Jan 10, 2003)

Dragonball has 500 episodes simply because it drags on forever.  Seriously.  The show will spend 15 minutes on something that was 2 panels in the manga.

Dragonball is basically the slowest paced action show ever.

Something comparable is Sailor Moon -- Sailor Moon is 5 seasons, and about 140 eps.  Only about 50 of these eps are actual plot; the rest are just filler.

Most shows are 26 eps; Gundam Wing was 49 eps (basically 2 seasons).  Most shows have a story that they tell, and then they're done.  Saikano's only 13 eps; it gets to the point, and then it's over.

DBZ takes bloody forever to get the point.  That's part of my own beef with it -- world-shaking battles shouldn't have a pace that can be described as glacial.


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## jdavis (Jan 10, 2003)

I don't think the pilots actually aged in Gundam Wing, Goku starts as a 10 year old boy and ends as a Grandfather. They are also telling a whole lot more than one story. I have not seen the Japanese version and I do know quite a lot was cut out for the American version and I agree they do drag things out, heck every episode is a freaking cliffhanger and fights last several episodes. But there is so much that goes on storywise, characters age and change and get married and die and come back...........This isn't a single story, Gundam Wing told a tale, Dragon Ball tells a life story. It can get silly and it is childish but it is for young people (as is Sailor Moon, which I despise).  There is a whole lot going on, if they cut the series down to 49 episodes it would be horrible, half the characters would be cut out and fight scenes would last one or two punches. They also have a dozen or so movies and ova's which tell a single story in each of them.

I can understand why a lot of people hate the show but you have to understand this isn't Gone With the Wind here, this isn't supposed to be the Mona Lisa of Anime, it's a lighthearted action/superhero show.


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## Epametheus (Jan 10, 2003)

You could probably cut out 50% of DBZ without hurting the story at all.  I'll grant that Dragonball has way too much content to be pared down to 2 seasons, or even 4.  It certainly doesn't need to be as long as it actually is, though.

Maybe the Magin Buu saga is different -- it's pretty much the only part of DBZ I haven't seen (or haven't seen past where Vegita dies for the 2nd time in the series), but I don't even find most of the battles in DBZ to be good action sequences.  Aside from most of the battles being so horribly lopsided that they might as well as not happened (let's take the final battle between Goku and Freiza -- even though the battle drags on for like 8 episodes (one of which is nothing but Freiza powering up), it's pretty clear from the very beginning that Freiza is outclassed -- and as Freiza is the bad guy, that takes a lot of tension out of it), they flat-out take forever.  Continuing in that vein, Goku vs. Vegita is one of the few good fights in the series -- Goku is the underdog, but he actually wins anyways (without dying, to boot).  The underdog almost always loses in DBZ simply because there's usually an absurd gulf between the underdog and the person that outclasses the underdog.  Piccolo-Kami vs. #18 is one of the few even fights in the entire series.

As for the flat-out taking forever bit -- let's face it, did we really need to spend 3 episodes on Goku using the Spirit Bomb (especially when it FAILS to actually do anything)?  Did we really need to spend 1 episode on Gohan becoming a L2 Super Saiya-jin, and then spend another episode on replaying and lengthening the transformation?  Did we really need to spend an entire episode on Goku and Cell punching each other as warm-up?  Or something like 3 episodes on Nappa killing all of the Earth-warriors (I'm sure it took that long, if not longer)?

DBZ drags things out pretty much for the sake of dragging things out.  It shouldn't take half a year of episodes to kill just one guy when the battle started at the beginning of that set of episodes(remember, these were probably coming out at the rate of 1 per week in Japan).

Note:  Um, wow.  I started writing this, and then got distracted and forgot about it for like 2 hours.  Um, oops?


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## Black Omega (Jan 10, 2003)

Epametheus said:
			
		

> Maybe the Magin Buu saga is different --[/B]



It's my favorite of the story arcs of DBZ.  But then I'm not sure how it will end up when chopped for the US.


*



			sequences.  Aside from most of the battles being so horribly lopsided that they might as well as not happened (let's take the final battle between Goku and Freiza -- even though the battle drags on for like 8 episodes (one of which is nothing but Freiza powering up), it's pretty clear from the very beginning that Freiza is outclassed -- and as Freiza is the bad guy, that takes a lot of tension out of it), they flat-out take forever.
		
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*
I have to disagree here.  Goku's not really in Frieza's league until he goes SSJ. It's at this point Goku far overmatches Frieza.  Frieza's simply playing with him for a while, so it looks less onesided.  I definitely agree it took to long, IMHO the Frieza Saga is the weakest of the series.

*



			Continuing in that vein, Goku vs. Vegita is one of the few good fights in the series -- Goku is the underdog, but he actually wins anyways (without dying, to boot).  The underdog almost always loses in DBZ simply because there's usually an absurd gulf between the underdog and the person that outclasses the underdog.  Piccolo-Kami vs. #18 is one of the few even fights in the entire series.
		
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*I agree, the first Vegita-Goku fight was built up to well, well handled, and I liked that both characters spent several eps afterwards in the hospital recovering.  It helped get over just how vicious the fight was.

IMHO, I wish powerups meant more in the series.  Piccolo fuses with Nail and becomes 'massively more powerful'...but it means nothing.  He's still not even close to a match for Frieza.

*



			Or something like 3 episodes on Nappa killing all of the Earth-warriors (I'm sure it took that long, if not longer)?
		
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*
??  Do you mean Chaotsu and the others?  I'm pretty sure Napa taking out the aircraft carrier  didn't take that long.  I really didn't have an problem with this, the point of the combat was showing how tough the Saiyans were, not giving us a close fight.  It served the same purpose as Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4 easily killing the guy who was a good match for Riggs earlier on, only more so because even after it's obvious they are outmatched they fight on to give Goku time to get back.

And...IMHO...the we're waiting on Goku thing was also very badly done in the Frieza story arc.

But the Frieza story arc is the worst of DBZ. in most respects.


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## Alzrius (Jan 10, 2003)

Epametheus said:
			
		

> *You could probably cut out 50% of DBZ without hurting the story at all.  I'll grant that Dragonball has way too much content to be pared down to 2 seasons, or even 4.  It certainly doesn't need to be as long as it actually is, though.*




You "could" cut any series down without hurting various parts of the storyline. That doesn't mean you should. You seem to think the long fight scenes and such are bad. They aren't. They're what makes the series enjoyable. Anything less wouldn't capture the incredible effort and strength that such mighty beings are capable of wielding, especially when fighting each other.



> *Maybe the Magin Buu saga is different -- it's pretty much the only part of DBZ I haven't seen (or haven't seen past where Vegita dies for the 2nd time in the series)*




Different how? I've seen some of it, and its still got everything that makes the rest of DBZ so great...which probably means you would hate it since you don't seem to like long, epic battles.



> *but I don't even find most of the battles in DBZ to be good action sequences.  Aside from most of the battles being so horribly lopsided that they might as well as not happened*




You must be joking. DBZ does nothing less than define action, and the "lopsidedness" is a major reason why. Its not just about the fighting, its about how will the hero win when he's so overmatched? How will the villain keep going when the good guy is stronger than him? Its the answers to these questions that make the story so incredible to watch.



> *(let's take the final battle between Goku and Freiza -- even though the battle drags on for like 8 episodes (one of which is nothing but Freiza powering up), it's pretty clear from the very beginning that Freiza is outclassed -- and as Freiza is the bad guy, that takes a lot of tension out of it), they flat-out take forever.*




::shakes head:: Wrong Wrong Wrong. First, you can't just dissect it down to "the final battle" between Goku versus Freeza. It's all one big battle, one that starts out with the "lopsidedness" you're talking about being heavily in favor of the villain. Goku is outclassed and he knows it. Freeza is just toying with him until he gets annoyed and raises his own power so high that Goku has no chance. Luckily, from out of nowhere, Goku is able to power himself up later on. Then, as you say, Freeza is outclassed, but we don't know by how much. As they both push themselves to their limits, it seems that Freeza might indeed be able to win the day. That's what keeps us on the edge of our seats. Ironically, Goku himself eventually stops the battle telling Freeza exactly what you pointed out; that even at full power, Freeza has no chance to win.



> *Continuing in that vein, Goku vs. Vegita is one of the few good fights in the series -- Goku is the underdog, but he actually wins anyways (without dying, to boot).  The underdog almost always loses in DBZ simply because there's usually an absurd gulf between the underdog and the person that outclasses the underdog.  Piccolo-Kami vs. #18 is one of the few even fights in the entire series.*




First off, that is Piccolo versus #17. Secondly, didn't I just mention that at first Goku was the underdog versus Freeza at first? In fact, you'll find that virtually all of the fights are with the heroes as the underdogs but still managing to win in the end. Freeza was stronger than the people he fought until he transformed. Cell several times receives a major power up that not only allows him to save himself, but turn the tables on the people who were previously about to kill him. Buu spends literally all of his time being the strongest there is, unstoppable to anyone and everyone, even if they can inflict damage on him.



> *As for the flat-out taking forever bit -- let's face it, did we really need to spend 3 episodes on Goku using the Spirit Bomb (especially when it FAILS to actually do anything)?*




Again, you're talking about need. You don't need anything at all in the anime, but would the battles be so much fun if they all only took one episode? Its dramatic tension, and it realistically depicts that when beings that strong fight, it takes that much time and power to properly depict it. When Goku spends that long powering up his Spirit Bomb, do you think that it would do nothing? No. Most people think "Okay, he only barely managed to live long enough to make it powerful enough to win, and this is their last hope, so it has to work." And then...it doesn't work! That's brilliant storytelling!



> *Did we really need to spend 1 episode on Gohan becoming a L2 Super Saiya-jin, and then spend another episode on replaying and lengthening the transformation?*




Frankly, yes, for the above reasons.



> *Did we really need to spend an entire episode on Goku and Cell punching each other as warm-up?  Or something like 3 episodes on Nappa killing all of the Earth-warriors (I'm sure it took that long, if not longer)?*




Again, yes! All of these things are unexpected twists and turns meant to, at length, draw the viewer in. If you had seen the previous episodes with the heroes, then it comes as a horrible shock when Nappa starts effortlessly beating them into the ground, and that he keeps doing so...with every episode that happens, you're more sure a miracle will happen...and it doesn't. Hence why the series is so great.



> *DBZ drags things out pretty much for the sake of dragging things out.  It shouldn't take half a year of episodes to kill just one guy when the battle started at the beginning of that set of episodes(remember, these were probably coming out at the rate of 1 per week in Japan).*




Of course it should. When one guy has the power to annihilate a solar system with one blow without breaking a sweat, could one measly episode of fighting possibly to justice to that kind of power? DBZ is totally justified in how long it is, because that's how long it needs to be. An epic saga like that simply cannot be contained in a mere 26 eipsodes.


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## Sixchan (Jan 10, 2003)

Well, I'm not sure.  In films, a 1-on-1 Samurai fight lasts AGES.  In truth, those sort of fights lasted only seconds, because of the finely-tuned abilities of the Samurai.

What got to me was not the long fight sequences (but I was bothered about "The planet is going to blow up in 5 minutes" but lasts about 5 hours), but the long speeches.  One scene that REALLY got to me was Piccolo facing the Grand Kai in the tournament, and then not fighting.  Realistic, yes.  Boring?  Yep.  I'd have rather seen Piccolo get beaten up.


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## Shard O'Glase (Jan 10, 2003)

My biggest beef with the Dragon ball sereis is the characters I like are the suckers, who are only on the sidelines after a few series.  Heck Hercule is a thousand times more interesting character than goku and other uber lame super sayan crew.  

I say Crillan(sp?) should take over, give him a real power boost,  and give Hercule some power already, he's played out the lame comic relief thing for far too long.

(and yes many of the fights do take too long.  It doesn't seem epic, it jsut seems really slow)


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## jdavis (Jan 10, 2003)

I think it is funny that many of the things that people gripe at are the same things that alot of people are saying make the show bad. You say boring another says dramatic tension, say it moves to slow somebody else says great plot development.............. The big fact is that the show has Millions of fanatical fans who worship it, the fact is that the show is huge, that they must be doing something right. My wife hates Star Wars, she wouldn't go see Lord of the Rings at gunpoint, she thinks both are silly and boring. My ex Wife never saw Star Wars, when asked why she said "it looked stupid". I don't like the Sopranos, she can't miss a episode. Yes not everybody is going to like DragonBall it's just part of life, you just really can't call it crap or a bad show and not expect people who like it to jump to it's defense.

I don't know how many episodes are in a season in Japan but for my example of the Simpsons 300 episodes is 14+ years. If they did 100 episodes a season then they had 5 seasons, a longer run than 90% of the shows out there, if they did the American average of 24 shows a season then you are takling a 20 year run. Does anybody out there know when the first Dragonball series started? My point was that for the amount of episodes they have that's a huge run for any TV show, I wasn't making a point on it being boring or not, I was making a point that this may be one of the longest lasting shows ever. Most shows that last 10 years are considered classics, not only was DragonBall a big hit in Japan when it was new, it's also been a huge hit for Cartoon Network in America.


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## Sixchan (Jan 10, 2003)

Oh, and CN contributed to making the show not-as-good-as-it-can-be (I can't use the word bad for DBZ).  I'm not talking about the censors, I'm talking about when they stopped running the episodes and re-did the whole last Saga.  They were showing 2 episodes a day, one of which was the day before's episode, making re-runs a silly idea.  They were showing the entire week's episodes on Saturdays and Sundays, making re-runs a bad idea.  Worse still, _the thing is ten years old!_  How can re-runs be a good idea, when you don't need series breaks like for truly 'new' episodes?  They could have shown them all one after the other!


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## WizarDru (Jan 10, 2003)

Utrecht, I've already gone into a very long-winded discussion about the pros and cons of anime.  A quick search will locate the thread, and you can read some very long posts that MIGHT explain the overall appeal to you.

I honestly think that no one's actually touched on most of anime's popularity or faults, mostly just focusing on DBZ, large boobs and the occasional Lolita problem.  Which is essentially the same as saying that American television must not be that good, as the only show you've seen is "Riptide", "The A-Team" and a certain show about female lifeguards.


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