# Why do women send mixed signals?



## KenM (Jun 30, 2005)

Ok, so I was talking with this girl I meeet though a personal service. We have not meet, just talked on the phone. SHE asks if I wanted to meet her tonight for dinner. I said sure. So at my lunch hour today, I call her today on my lunch hour to take care of the details, ect.. Then she says she can't meet because she has to make plans with her family for the holiday weekend.  Why ask me to dinner and then back off all of sudden? I'm sick and tired of getting mixed signals from women.  "Ken, i know I kissed you on the mouth, but I did not mean it THAT way." and " I know I'm sleeping right against you in my panites and your tshirt, but we are just friends."  Why can't women be more straghtforward?


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## reveal (Jun 30, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Ok, so I was talking with this girl I meeet though a personal service. We have not meet, just talked on the phone. SHE asks if I wanted to meet her tonight for dinner. I said sure. So at my lunch hour today, I call her today on my lunch hour to take care of the details, ect.. Then she says she can't meet because she has to make plans with her family for the holiday weekend.  Why ask me to dinner and then back off all of sudden? I'm sick and tired of getting mixed signals from women.  "Ken, i know I kissed you on the mouth, but I did not mean it THAT way." and " I know I'm sleeping right against you in my panites and your tshirt, but we are just friends."  Why can't women be more straghtforward?




Maybe she honestly forgot this weekend was a holiday. It doesn't really sound like she was sending mixed signals. Perhaps she really liked talking to you and got caught up in the moment and asked you to dinner. Did you ask her if she wanted to meet at another time?


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## Xath (Jun 30, 2005)

I don't think it's a mixed signal either, unless she didn't want to rearrange dinner plans.  It is a holiday weekend, and I know that July has really snuck up on me.

But just in case, what sort of things did you say in the lunch conversation?


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## KenM (Jun 30, 2005)

She said I should call after this weekend. But I'm not going to, sounds to me like she wanted to blow me off. I'm just sick of women pulling this crap. I never treat anyone like this, but I guess its ok becuase people treat me like this. If you commit to something, make every effort to go though with it, i understand stuff comes up, but thats just wrong.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jun 30, 2005)

She is being straightforward.  We just don't speak their language.


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## KenM (Jun 30, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> But just in case, what sort of things did you say in the lunch conversation?




  All I said was. "Hi, its Ken from last night, how were you?"  "Good." "still want to meet for dinner tonight?"  "I can't we have comapny this weekend and i have to get things together" I was annoyed but did not show it. "Ok" I said. "Call me after this weekend" she says. "bye" I hang up.
  My point is it sopunded like she knew ahead of time she need to this the other stuff today. So why ask me to go out when she has to do other stuff? Why play games?


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## was (Jun 30, 2005)

Genetics...


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## sniffles (Jun 30, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Ok, so I was talking with this girl I meeet though a personal service. We have not meet, just talked on the phone. SHE asks if I wanted to meet her tonight for dinner. I said sure. So at my lunch hour today, I call her today on my lunch hour to take care of the details, ect.. Then she says she can't meet because she has to make plans with her family for the holiday weekend. Why ask me to dinner and then back off all of sudden? I'm sick and tired of getting mixed signals from women. "Ken, i know I kissed you on the mouth, but I did not mean it THAT way." and " I know I'm sleeping right against you in my panites and your tshirt, but we are just friends." Why can't women be more straghtforward?




They are not sending mixed signals.  They changed their minds.  It is the perogative of all human beings to change their minds, not just women.  It may not have anything to do with you, or it may be second thoughts.  Either way, blaming all women and complaining about it is not going to get you anywhere.  You are more likely to find someone if you stop trying and just let it happen naturally.  Contrary to e-harmony's ads, personal services are not really the way to meet people.  The ones who get lucky with them are just that, lucky.


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## The Shaman (Jun 30, 2005)

Paging Mr. *Teflon Billy*...Mr. *Teflon Billy*, please pick up the white courtesy phone...paging Mr. *Teflon Billy*...


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## EricNoah (Jun 30, 2005)

*Complicated Answer * --  A summary of _Games People Play _ (Eric Berne):  

Most people (men and women both) play "games" in order to a) gain "strokes" (what you might call "warm fuzzies" -- but negative strokes like insults or violence can be a suitable substitute) and b) to affirm their essential life-view.  She might be playing a game called "hard to get" and is expecting you to fulfill your role.  If it goes right, she a) gets the warm fuzzies of having you persue her (it makes her feel wanted), and b) confirms some life-view she (probably unconsciously) holds to be a universal truth (it could be something like "Men are only interested in one thing" or "I'm ok, you're not ok" or "If a guy likes me, there must be something wrong with him because I don't like myself" or something even more complicated).  And in fact, on some level she might be looking specifically for a partner who is willing to play the right games and be a "good player."  

Some people don't like being forced to play games (understandably enough) or only want to play games on their own terms, and thus the bad feelings.  Games are typically a substitute for intimacy, which is the "ideal" (non-game) method of obtaining strokes.  Unfortunately, most people don't have enough opportunities for intimacy, and so must resort to games to gain strokes, and even then they live in a "stroke-deprived" state most of the time.  

*Simple answer:*  It's a dance -- the closer you move, the further back she moves; the faster you advance, the faster she retreats.  If you back off a bit, she may advance.  This goes on until she's figured you out or decided it's worth it to risk advancing when you advance.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 30, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> Paging Mr. *Teflon Billy*...Mr. *Teflon Billy*, please pick up the white courtesy phone...paging Mr. *Teflon Billy*...




I live to serve.



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> Why play games?




Any number of reasons, actually. None of which can be deduced from your post.

Maybe she, as you suspect, was trying to blow you off but attempted to do so gently. In that case, she was trying to either (A) Be Nice and let you down easy, or (B) she got a creepy vibe off you and didn't want to get you angry.

Think about it man, she barely knows you.

Maybe, as Xath suspects, she legitmately forgot about her weekend plans. 

I've forgotten about things before. It happens. In this case she was either (A)*Retarded *and this happens all the time, or (B) *Dealing with a normal, human mistake*, and it's an anomaly.

I hope this isn't another one of those Hida/Majoru/Asperger Syndrome threads where people chime in, apparently unable to fathom such mindbending concepts as "Small Talk", "White Lies" and "Politeness" as ingredients in normal, healthy social interaction...because those are sad.

She told you to call her after the weekend right? I'm just not seeing a big, obvious game being played here Ken. She might be on the level. From your transcipt of your phonecall it sounds like she might've been preoccupied.

Call her after the weekend. If she's got another excuse, write her off.

So far you two have shared a _phone call_, so let's not start acting like she left you at the Altar, allright?


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## Abstraction (Jun 30, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *Simple answer:*  It's a dance -- the closer you move, the further back she moves; the faster you advance, the faster she retreats.  If you back off a bit, she may advance.  This goes on until she's figured you out or decided it's worth it to risk advancing when you advance.




So keep advancing until she has her back against a wall. Then you can ready an action!

Seriously, dude. Why do women send mixed signal/play games? Because they _can_. You would, too, if you could get away with it.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 30, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> Seriously, dude. Why do women send mixed signal/play games? Because they _can_. You would, too, if you could get away with it.




That is a great answer

If it turns out that she _is_ stringing you along, think on this man's answer. 

Solid.


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## EricNoah (Jun 30, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> If it turns out that she _is_ stringing you along, think on this man's answer.




I think it's more likely that she changed her mind.  I haven't known a whole lot of real hard-core "stringer-alongers" ... though there was this one girl ... ugh, can't even stand to think about it.  It was the worst date ever, utterly humiliating ... and I've never been more proud of myself because of how I handled it (I just got up and walked out in the middle of it, didn't make a scene, and did make sure she could get home ok, but didn't let her use me).  That night I learned that I wasn't nearly as desperate as I thought I was.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 30, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I think it's more likely that she changed her mind.  I haven't known a whole lot of real hard-core "stringer-alongers" ... though there was this one girl ... ugh, can't even stand to think about it.  It was the worst date ever, utterly humiliating ... and I've never been more proud of myself because of how I handled it (I just got up and walked out in the middle of it, didn't make a scene, and did make sure she could get home ok, but didn't let her use me).  That night I learned that I wasn't nearly as desperate as I thought I was.




Part of becoming a man is having a night like that

I've had more than one...so I guess I am an Ubermensch


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## atom crash (Jun 30, 2005)

> She told you to call her after the weekend right? I'm just not seeing a big, obvious game being played here Ken. She might be on the level. From your transcipt of your phonecall it sounds like she might've been preoccupied.
> 
> Call her after the weekend. If she's got another excuse, write her off.




This is sound advice. Call her early next week, like late Monday afternoon or anytime Tuesday. If she doesn't want to make plans then, or if she makes plans but backs out again, then don't pursue her anymore. 

It's generally acceptable to allow people the benefit of the doubt once. But if it happens more than once, then either she's not interested or committing to plans is a problem for her. Either way you don't need any of that.


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## EricNoah (Jun 30, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Part of becoming a man is having a night like that




If nothing else it helps you find out where and what your limits are.  

Bringing this back to Ken's issue, maybe you need to find out where your limits are?   Are you going to let one last-minute change of plans keep you from trying with this woman?  If you fill your head with "she's playing games" or "she's sending mixed signals" it's going to be hard to put that aside and have a good time on a date with her if/when she does decide to go out with you.  That kind of resentment shines through and is unattractive at best.  I'd say let it slide, try to stay positive, see what you can put together next week, and if not, c'est la vie, keep on looking...


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## KenM (Jun 30, 2005)

Thanks for everyones input. I'm about to tell you people something I have not shared with that many people. I have Asperger Syndrome. Basically I have a very hard time reading body laguage, social cues, ect.. I really dislike large social situations and I shy away from them. I have trouble making "small talk", ect.. So when someone says "lets meet for dinner", i think thats what she wants to do.


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## barsoomcore (Jun 30, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> Why do women send mixed signal/play games? Because they _can_. You would, too, if you could get away with it.



Um, so far as I know, he CAN get away with it. And, unless he's spectacularly different from every human being I've ever met, he probably does. It's not like women hold a monopoly on playing games. 

It's just that when you're a straight guy, there's no other game that seems quite so important to win.


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## devilbat (Jun 30, 2005)

She can't make dinner because she has to make plans for the weekend?  Riiiight, sounds to me like an upgraded "need to wash my hair".  If she wanted to get together, she would have made it work.  Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and move it right along.


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## barsoomcore (Jun 30, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I have Asperger Syndrome.



Don't let that make you feel like you can't cope or you can't find someone who's healthy and good for you. My dad has that VERY strongly. It makes him very frustrating for some people, but he's found a good woman who's perfect for him.

I have it myself (not nearly as strongly as my dad does, but still), and honestly, it's not really a disadvantage in and of itself. It's just part of who you are and it affects the type of folks you'll find attractive and who find you attractive.

There's no shortage of women who are sick to death of listening to "small talk" and just want someone to take them at their word, believe me.


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## EricNoah (Jun 30, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Thanks for everyones input. I'm about to tell you people something I have not shared with that many people. I have Asperger Syndrome. Basically I have a very hard time reading body laguage, social cues, ect.. I really dislike large social situations and I shy away from them. I have trouble making "small talk", ect.. So when someone says "lets meet for dinner", i think thats what she wants to do.




Cool, that's really helpful info to have.  A smile can mean a hundred things, yes can mean no, and "I like you" can mean "I don't really like you."  That's hard for anyone to decipher, and sounds like it is extra-challenging for you.  

"Yes let's meet for dinner" in this case probably really meant "Tentative yes, with the option to back out because I haven't totally made up my mind yet."  The good news: it probably had nothing to do with you!

Edit: This "mixed signals" thing brings me back to another part of "Games People Play" -- the theory that everyone communicates on two levels.  My rational "adult" might say "Do you still want to meet for dinner?"  Her rational "adult" might say "No, there's been a change of plans, etc."  What her "child" might be hearing from you is your parent saying "You promised and a person should keep their promises" and her "child" responds "Nya nya nya, I can do what I want."  Yet another layer of complexity.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Cool, that's really helpful info to have.  A smile can mean a hundred things, yes can mean no, and "I like you" can mean "I don't really like you."  That's hard for anyone to decipher




It really isn't all that hard when taken in context.



			
				Eric said:
			
		

> and sounds like it is extra-challenging for you.




Yep. But if you are going to try and socialize while nursing a scorching case of Aspergers, you _literally _can't start going on about stuff you can't comprehend as being "Game playing", "Evil" or "Lying" when 99% of the people you meet out there are going to be using this mode of communication (normal, everyday interaction) as their primary one.

It will make you crazy. 

Start adapting.



			
				Eric said:
			
		

> "Yes let's meet for dinner" in this case probably really meant "Tentative yes, with the option to back out because I haven't totally made up my mind yet."  The good news: it probably had nothing to do with you!




I concur.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Jul 1, 2005)

Ken,

Men play "games" too. Everyone experiences fear, doubt, and likes to keep their options open when outside of their comfort zone. 

But dude!! Big Mistake! - You let her off the hook with your "Still wanna meet tonight?" line. Never offer an out once the deal is done. Chances are she was nervous about meeting a stranger, and you just gave her an out. 

If you call her next week, and if you aren't acting like some puppy that got kicked (who wants to deal with a gulit trip from a relative stranger?), and can express genuine confidence, humour and interest (be yourself!) you'll get a date. If not, you don't want one - with her.


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## devilbat (Jul 1, 2005)

> But dude!! Big Mistake! - You let her off the hook with your "Still wanna meet tonight?" line. Never offer an out once the deal is done. Chances are she was nervous about meeting a stranger, and you just gave her an out




Good point!


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> Ken,
> 
> Men play "games" too. Everyone experiences fear, doubt, and likes to keep their options open when outside of their comfort zone.




Yup 



			
				BFG said:
			
		

> But dude!! Big Mistake! - You let her off the hook with your "Still wanna meet tonight?" line. Never offer an out once the deal is done. Chances are she was nervous about meeting a stranger, and you just gave her an out.




Yup. Never call to ask the same question twice, unless you want a different answer.



			
				BFG said:
			
		

> If you call her next week, and if you aren't acting like some puppy that got kicked (who wants to deal with a gulit trip from a relative stranger?), and can express genuine confidence, humour and interest (be yourself!) you'll get a date. If not, you don't want one - with her.




Do not "be yourself" if yourself doesn't list the aforemetnioned "confidence", "humour" and "interest" amongst your qualities.

So, by all means get the date if you can, but as Eric pointed out above, this is a dance, and  She has just pulled back. 

At dinner, _you _pull back a bit. 

Find something she says to disagree with. You have Aspergers, your facility with rational arguent should be good enough. Prove her point wrong. 

She has stalled you for a date, don't be a dick...but don't be sweet either. Work her a little.

if it starts getting too tense, offer to "Agree to disagree" and move on.

See if she get's back into it

She probably will.

And no, I don't know why or understand the behaviour. I just know that it works.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Jul 1, 2005)

OK - So youre asking yourself now, what DO I say then? Have a plan. Something like this will work wonders: 

"Hi Julie, it's Ken - How was your 4th of July weekend? 

Really, that sounds fun - tell me more about X you just mentioned! 

Great, I did X Y AND Z - Goodtimes! 

Hey listen: I know we didn't get a chance to meet last week, but I was thinking we can meet this next week. I really like X place, it great because of 1 2 3, we can meet there , then go do Y. What day works best for you? "

You aren't ( openly) dissapointed about last week
You are interested in what she did and says
you had fun - you are strong and resourceful
You have a PLAN!!!!
End with a closed end question that leads where you want to go.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon's advice about disagreeing occasionaly is good. It illustrates your independance, and strong will, which are very attractive qualities - but beware - these are advanced techniques and could get a rookie in trouble if you pick the wrong topic. Remember, Puppies and Daffodils are always good, even if you have allergies!


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## nerfherder (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> She told you to call her after the weekend right? I'm just not seeing a big, obvious game being played here Ken. She might be on the level. From your transcipt of your phonecall it sounds like she might've been preoccupied.
> 
> Call her after the weekend. If she's got another excuse, write her off.



*She* made the first move and asked you out, then cancelled.  Sounds like there's a decent chance it was genuine, then.  Do as TB says and call her next week.

I've just seen BigFreekinGoblinoid's advice on planning your conversation, and it is spot on.  Be confident, be interested, be positive.

Oh, and don't be afraid to say "sorry, I'm not free Tuesday and Thursday next week, can we make it Wednesday?".  It lets her know that you already have a social life and don't just sit at home watching TV and surfing the internet every night.  A female friend told me that little "game".

Cheers,
Liam


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I have trouble making "small talk", ect.. So when someone says "lets meet for dinner", i think thats what she wants to do.




That is rough. If it makes you feel better, go to This thread to see what a truly low-fuctioning case of Aspergers looks like

I think you'll find you aren't as far gone as you think.

We had a guy in my hometown who had Aspergers, and he was ultra-annoying. He went on and on about our other friend's Girlfriend and how they shouldn't be together because our other Friend had once described a _different_ girl as a "10".

The guy couldn't get used to the idea that if our other friend had a ideal in mind, why he would bother settling for his current girl. He basically--no matter how many times we told him--was incapable of understanding the idea that our other friend was just making "Guy Talk" when he described this other girl as a "10".

It got damn annoying to our other Friend's girlfriend. Our friend with Aspergers would mention this in front of her a lot, and because to his mind it was "true" (ie. he had heard it himself) he couldn't figure why she would be upset...after all, doesn't everyone love "The Truth"?

(Note to Ken...no, they don't )

God help anyone who asked him "how's it going?" or "What's up?" as a greeting. You would get a rundown of the last six months of his life in painstaking, boring, detail rahter than the expected "fine"

Anyway, the point of this tale is that _that guy got help_ and in Small town Canada no less. Not pharmaceutical help...just a nice therapist explaining to him stuff other people learn without explanation: Body language, small talk, etc.

What I'm sayin is that this stuff isn't voodoo. It can be learned.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> She said I should call after this weekend. But I'm not going to, sounds to me like she wanted to blow me off.




It's your call of course, but you've admitted you are crappy at "Reading Signals"



			
				Ken said:
			
		

> I'm just sick of women pulling this crap.




Better get used to it. My _Grandfather _relates comparable tales



			
				Ken said:
			
		

> I never treat anyone like this, but I guess its ok becuase people treat me like this.




I'll quote Clint Eastwood in *Unforgiven*...

[bq]...Deserve ain't got nothin' to do with it...[/bq]



			
				Ken said:
			
		

> If you commit to something, make every effort to go though with it, i understand stuff comes up, but thats just wrong.




This sentence makes no sense. :\ 

You understand things come up--and acording to her, something has--but _what's_ "just wrong"?


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## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Sorry that guy was annoying. I generally don't do any social things except when I have to, small groups of close friends, people I work with, at work. I don't want to get the wrong signal fromm anyone and screw it up. Also, I really don't care about people making "small talk" or seeming generally interested in what someone else has to say at a party that I never met before when I could care less. I'm sure everyone at the party is nice and all, but I don't need anything from them or want anything to do with them. All that socialiizing and small talk is boring and I can tell people are doing it just to be polite. I really don't feel the need to do all that BS'ing, and people label me a freak because I don't like to socialize. All I want is to find a nice girl to settle down with. I have the place, I have the job I'm happy with. I just want a special someone to share it with. 
I have a cousin I only see once a year on Xmas eve. After I got my first real computer, that year I gave her my email because she said she was going to email me. I thought it would be great and we could grow closer. The whole year went by and not a signal email. When I saw her again I asked why she did not email me. She shrugged and said "sorry I forgot, hehe" and laughed it off as some kind of joke. I talked about this with someone and they told me when she said she would email me, it was just small talk and I should not have taken it like she was going to accually do it. WTF? Its ok for someone to say they are going to do something and then not do it? If I said I was going to do something and did not do it, people would think I'm lazy or dumb. But its ok for other people to do that, but not me. 
That is how someone with AS sees other people. Thanks for letting me vent about it.


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## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> You understand things come up--and acording to her, something has--but _what's_ "just wrong"?





  I took it as she knew beforehand that she had to get ready for the weekend, but she was the one that asked me to dinner anyway.  She should not have offered to meet for dinner if she had other plans, thats what is wrong, IMO.  It would have been something else if she said "I just found out about family coming over for the weekend, I have to plan for that." But to me it sounded like a lame cop out.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I really don't feel the need to do all that BS'ing, and people label me a freak because I don't like to socialize. All I want is to find a nice girl to settle down with. I have the place, I have the job I'm happy with. I just want a special someone to share it with.




Alas, that requires socializing brother

You think some woman just wants to walk up to you and announce "I would like to be your soul-mate"? 

Honestly, from what I've seen this seems to be a really common Aspergers wish-fulfillment fantasy. But it's not going to happen, man.

It's just not.




			
				ken said:
			
		

> I have a cousin I only see once a year on Xmas eve. After I got my first real computer, that year I gave her my email because she said she was going to email me. I thought it would be great and we could grow closer. The whole year went by and not a signal email. When I saw her again I asked why she did not email me. She shrugged and said "sorry I forgot, hehe" and laughed it off as some kind of joke. I talked about this with someone and they told me when she said she would email me, it was just small talk and I should not have taken it like she was going to accually do it. WTF? Its ok for someone to say they are going to do something and then not do it?




Yes Ken, it is. It honestly is. If the stakes are super-low (like recieving a non-emergency email) then it is _fine_ to let it slide.

She was describing doing something recreational and didn't follow through on it. It's hardly the end of the world, and--though it might require about as much apology as she gave ("Sorry, I forgot")-- that's about it.



			
				Ken said:
			
		

> If I said I was going to do something and did not do it, people would think I'm lazy or dumb.




Well I don't pretend to have any firsthand knowledge about how people judge you, but I will tell you that  people will cut a _lot_ of slack on that kind of thing for folks they have socialized with. 

But you have said previously...

[bq]I really don't care about people making "small talk" or seeming generally interested in what someone else has to say at a party that I never met before when I could care less. I'm sure everyone at the party is nice and all, but I don't need anything from them or want anything to do with them...[/bq] 

...which tells me that no one has any real need to cut you any slack for _any _behaviour they find off-putting. Why would they?

Your cousin is family, and probably expected a level of "assumed socialization" from that alone. Forgot to email you? _let it go man_ It really is _nothing_.



> But its ok for other people to do that, but not me.
> That is how someone with AS sees other people. Thanks for letting me vent about it.




It's OK for certain people to do it to certain other people. In other cases it's not ok. 

There is no magic if/then statement that will work 100% of the time in normal human interaction. Stop trying to find one.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Jul 1, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> They are not sending mixed signals.  They changed their minds.  It is the perogative of all human beings to change their minds, not just women.




Yes.  True.

But there should be a limit of, ohhh, 3 or less when you are carrying 100 lbs of solid oak nightstand & your wife is trying to decide what corner of the house it would look good in.

Or, it should not take 3 hours at the mall to decide between 3 colors of bed sheets (all of which exist in th emale color of 'White'.


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## EricNoah (Jul 1, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> Or, it should not take 3 hours at the mall to decide between 3 colors of bed sheets (all of which exist in the male color of 'White'.




I love my wife, and she's my soulmate, and all that.  But don't make me go shopping with her.  We just have different takes on what constitutes the "right amount of time" to spend looking for something...   But then, if she were at the bookstore waiting on me to decide, I might be just as frustrating!


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I love my wife, and she's my soulmate, and all that.  But don't make me go shopping with her.  We just have different takes on what constitutes the "right amount of time" to spend looking for something...   But then, if she were at the bookstore waiting on me to decide, I might be just as frustrating!




Oh my God! That's my wife and I as well

Drives me crazy just standng there while she stands with a Bathing Suit in each hand (still on the hanger) "scrunching"the material between her fingers and looking back and forth at them.

Minute. After. Minute.

She's lucky she's cute


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## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Alas, that requires socializing brother
> 
> You think some woman just wants to walk up to you and announce "I would like to be your soul-mate"?
> 
> ...




  I'm not expecting it to happen like that. I know I have to  get out there to find people. Thats why I have a personal ad online. I'm not comfortable going to a party and making small talk with a large group of people. Waste of time, IMO. 
   Thats why I like the personals, you can get to know people one on one, thats what I like. I just don't like it when people say A and do B. 



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> ...which tells me that no one has any real need to cut you any slack for _any _behaviour they find off-putting. Why would they?
> 
> It's OK for certain people to do it to certain other people. In other cases it's not ok.
> 
> There is no magic if/then statement that will work 100% of the time in normal human interaction. Stop trying to find one.




    I don't want any slack, thats why I don't socialize much. I don't feel the need to.  People need to just be honest with what the do and say. I always tell people that I need honesty above all else. But when I find out someone close has upset me and they were not truthful, I'm more mad at the fact they lied to me then whatever was the orginal fight was about.


----------



## Llaurenela (Jul 1, 2005)

Hi, 

I just happened to see this thread and thought I would comment. Eric Noah and BigFreekinGoblinoid gave you some excellent advice. On the Thread link in one message above, at that link the advice that is in the same vein as Eric Noah and BigFreekinGoblinoid is also excellent advice. 

Most people (men and women) routinely say things they don't intend to follow through on and don't intend to have someone else take serious. Right or wrong that is life, accept it and move on. 

Women like to see men with pets because it implys (not always correctly) that you are not an axe murderer and are capable of forming normal healthy attachments.

Women like to see men with male friends because it implys (not always correctly) that you are not an axe murderer and are capable of forming normal healthy attachments.

Women like to see men with other female friends because, if some other women like the guy then he may be worth having. If you are out with a group of male and female friends doing any type of social activity and you are obviously having fun it goes a long way to saying that you are not an axe murderer and are capable of forming normal healthy attachments.

These parties and other social activities that you don't like, the small talk that you don't like etc. If you don't do those things, or do them and look uncomfortable and obviously are not having fun sends out the wrong vibes and you are missing opportunities to show that you are not an axe murderer and are capable of forming normal healthy attachments.

If you have a group of friends that includes men and women that is half the battle, go have fun with them and be happy without a date, it will help you get a date.

If you don't have a group of friends like that, then go find friends first and worry about a date later. If the only interest you have is D&D then you may need to broaden your interests, there are a lot of D&D related topics that appeal to a broader cross section of women. 

All that aside, there may be some spot out there in your life right now or close to you where you can meet the women that likes you just the way you are, but you need to relax and not take life so seriously in order to meet her. Don't put so much pressure on yourself.

But follow the advice the two guys I noted above gave you with the girl you mentioned.

Best of luck, don't get discouraged,

Llaurenela


----------



## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

So I should go to a party with a couple of male and female friends and a dog and I'm set? LOL


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> People need to just be honest with what the do and say. I always tell people that I need honesty above all else. But when I find out someone close has upset me and they were not truthful, I'm more mad at the fact they lied to me then whatever was the orginal fight was about.




See that right there is what I'm talking about. You don't get to dictate other people's behaviours.

You claim you need honesty above all else, and most people would agree that that's a decent policy. No problem so far.

Except what you mean by needing honesty is that if they ever say they are going to do anything (like send you an email) and fail to do so, you feel incredibly betrayed.

This is not the way 99% of the world works, and if you think "People need to just be honest with what the do and say" includes telling someone's Girlfriend that they called another girl a "10", or flagellating yourself because you forgot to send someone an easygoing email, then I'm afraid you are going ot be alone for a long time. People out ther ein the world don't behave that way, don't expect others to, and would I think feel very, very trapped if someone demanded they act that way.

Here is basically the way it is (and it's not news you are going to like): People lie. 

They lie constantly. 

They tell people they love that their hair looks nice when it doesn't. T

hey tell people their kids are cute when they aren't. They claim to have a headache to beg off a lunch engagement that they just don't feel like going to.

And everyone accepts that. 
_
No one_ needs "to just be honest with what the do and say". That creates a huge amount of hurt feelings that benefit no one. No one at all.

I correct myself. It might give a certain benefit to those who can't engage in "Small Talk"...but they are a infinitesimal minority and I don't see the world changing dramatically to suit them.

The option of changing to suit the world, however, is available.

Like I say, you only get to dictate your own behaviour.


----------



## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Llaurenela said:
			
		

> doing any type of social activity and you are obviously having fun
> Best of luck, don't get discouraged,
> 
> Llaurenela





  Thats just it, I don't have fun with any large group of people. I don't see the need to sociallize like that and BS each other.  Whats the point? So I can stroke my own ego? So I can feel "normal'? I am normal, IMO. If people don't like me or think I'm weird becuase I don't talk muck. Its they're loss.  I'm already discouraged.


----------



## Harmon (Jul 1, 2005)

Been with the same woman for.... a long time   .  Married just ten years though.

One of the greatest things I ever did was read _Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus_.  It so helped us communicate its amazing.  Everyone that I know that has tried to read it and said its crap has been divorced at least once, some are working on number three.

Do not force your efforts Ken.  Call her once, talk to her, ask her out, she has other plans, try again next week.  Try once more the following week.  After the second brush off give her your number, and say- "give me a call when your free and we'll do coffee or something."

Wait a week.  No call.  Your done, move on.

If you get the "lets be friends," line.  Say "thank you, but I was looking for something stronger then that.  I wish you the best things life can give you."  Don't be angry, don't slam the phone down, and don't call her again unless she calls you first. 

Never play games with a woman.  The rules are ever changing, just be honest, patient, kind and considerate.  Eventually you will find one.  Don't be possessive, don't yell and scream, you only appear to be a psycho after that.

Oh, last thing- never ever take advice about women.  No one has a clue what they want- not even women.


----------



## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Like I say, you only get to dictate your own behaviour.




 I agree with you there. My behaviour is not associating with people that lie.  I will not lie and say I like something/ someone when I don't. I won't pretend to be socailable at a party when all I really want to do is go home and not have to put up with peoples stupid. petty talk. One of my old GF's loved large get togethers. I hated them. I would just sit in a corner and watch. My GF would get mad at me for not getting to know people. I would say "why? I don't want anything to do with these people, this is a waste of time. You know I don't like these kind of things." this was before I was diaganosed with AS.  I'm not going to pretend to be someone I'm not, for anyone.


----------



## reveal (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I agree with you there. My behaviour is not associating with people that lie.  I will not lie and say I like something/ someone when I don't. I won't pretend to be socailable at a party when all I really want to do is go home and not have to put up with peoples stupid. petty talk. One of my old GF's loved large get togethers. I hated them. I would just sit in a corner and watch. My GF would get mad at me for not getting to know people. I would say "why? I don't want anything to do with these people, this is a waste of time. You know I don't like these kind of things." this was before I was diaganosed with AS.  I'm not going to pretend to be someone I'm not, for anyone.




I get what you're trying to say and I think it's unfortunate you feel this way. If you expect someone to be perfect, even yourself, and they're not, you're going to be extremely disappointed and depressed. I know you didn't actually say you expect a person to be perfect, but, IME, the only people who never lie are perfect...and I've never met a perfect person.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 1, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> Been with the same woman for.... a long time   .  Married just ten years though.
> 
> One of the greatest things I ever did was read _Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus_.  It so helped us communicate its amazing.  Everyone that I know that has tried to read it and said its crap has been divorced at least once, some are working on number three.
> 
> ...




And don't keep your hopes up too high until she does agree to a date. Because if you do and she keeps "brushing you off", you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.


----------



## der_kluge (Jul 1, 2005)

My wife, who is a therapist, suggests that, for someone with Aspergers, getting a book like http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/002-4759166-9894413?v=glance&s=books which might help you understand the games women play a little bit better.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> So I should go to a party with a couple of male and female friends and a dog and I'm set? LOL




Yeah...and if you know someone with a baby, borrow it.  When my son was an infant, women would crawl over themselves to see him if I was somewhere alone with him.  A friend of mine actually asked to watch him if we'd go to the mall.  He got three phone numbers.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Like I say, you only get to dictate your own behaviour.




Even with the funny Canadian spelling, he's right!


----------



## Sigdel (Jul 1, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> You are more likely to find someone if you stop trying and just let it happen naturally.




Bullcrap. I will say it again in you didn't hear me the first time. Bullcrap.
Wow, I am so freakishly bitter, even I can't find any humor in it. Bullcrap.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Why can't women be more straghtforward?



Because they are put on this earth to mess with our minds.   

That and the fact that they have something that we want, no matter how desperate we men are.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I agree with you there. My behaviour is not associating with people that lie.  I will not lie and say I like something/ someone when I don't. I won't pretend to be socailable at a party when all I really want to do is go home and not have to put up with peoples stupid. petty talk. One of my old GF's loved large get togethers. I hated them. I would just sit in a corner and watch. My GF would get mad at me for not getting to know people. I would say "why? I don't want anything to do with these people, this is a waste of time. You know I don't like these kind of things."




So having anything to do with people you don't know is a waste of your time? Attempting to please your girlfriend is a waste of time and attempting to actually determine if you want anything to do with these people (rahter than just abruptly deciding you don't) is a waste of time?

Your time must be unimaginably valuable.



> I'm not going to pretend to be someone I'm not, for anyone.




Well, it sounds like you have all the answers then Ken.

I thought from your first post that you were upset with the way women in your life acted towards you, and were looking for some kind of help, explanation or sympathy, but you actually seem to be living in exactly the manner you desire. 

I'll take your word for it that it has nothin to do with untreated Asperger's Syndrome's tendency to make the subject love sameness and fear change more than they could ever dislike their current situation.

Glad you've got it all worked out.

Good luck with your future romantic relationships and  Godspeed


----------



## Xath (Jul 1, 2005)

Let me be straightforward with you...

Women will never be straightforward.  Even if you enter into a serious relationship, the games continue.  If she's upset, she won't tell you she's upset.  You're supposed to know she's upset and know the reason why she's upset, all without her telling you with words.  However, if you don't know why she's upset, you're just going to prove her point, whatever it is, and give her a physical being on which to vent her frustrations.

What I'm trying to say is, the "games" don't stop.  Men and women communicate differently.  Sometimes it leads to confrontation.  But the thing that makes a relationship work is compromise.  You have to give some to get some.  And right now, it sounds like you're living in a world of absolutes.  That's not a way to build a healthy relationship, whether you're seeking friendship or a soul mate.  

You have to give and take.  Accept that you're going to differ in opinion.  

Also, I totally don't think she's blowing you off.  Here's why:

1.  She asked you to call her - Normally that wouldn't happen if she was blowing you off.
2.  She asked you to call her after this weekend - If she were blowing you off, she wouldn't give you a time to call her. 

I've planned social functions before.  Sometimes people don't do their part, and things don't get done, so you're stuck a few days ahead of time throwing the whole thing together.  She might have underestimated her ability to plan the gathering in her allotted time.

I'm not getting the "blow me off" vibe from your accounts.  But if you treat her like she blew you off, she will.

Be nice.


----------



## Lucrecio (Jul 1, 2005)

Yo Ken

Just a few comments:
1) Ok, you don't like small talk and parties. Ok thats fine, but these are great opportunities to meet other people. Small talk is a boring chores, I admit, but I think that more people than you think have the same opinion as you. However, many of these people make the effort, because you never know when small talk could lead you to a deep conversation with a smart, beautiful stranger that might become the woman of your life (or just a potential girlfriend, which is better than nothing...). 

2) 'It's their loss not mine ...blablabla..." Well, I don't think this attitude helps you much, no offense. This kind of arrogance isn't going to get you very far with woman, people don't suffer a loss by not knowing you; by not going out enough, you don't exist to them, theres no loss for them. I don't say this to offend you, even if it might sound very blunt. What I mean is that your value and your qualities aren't written on your face and your personnal ad, you have to prove them, one way or another. 

3) Women send mixed signals: wrong. Some do, but some men do too, and many people can't decipher things right too (Asperg...whatever). You shouldn't let such things slow you down.

Whoa, my fingers are sores... Hope what we all said will help you out man. Good luck.


----------



## Harmon (Jul 1, 2005)

Something else Ken.

Relationships start with two people that think or feel that they have a chance.  They have to change, accept other views and beliefs.  If you don't you will be alone forever or in and out of relationships.

You have to give more then you get.  You can't be unbending, if you are you will break the relationship.  Communication is so very important.    

When she wants to go dancing on your gaming night, she should have enough for thought and understanding to tell you a week or three in advance and not moments before the group shows up.  You should make an effort to learn how to dance, because she likes to dance, though you might hate it.

She might not like gaming, but should try it before she bad mouths it.  

She should respect your wishes and you her's.  Do not be unbending, be flexible, don't be anymore demanding then she is, and remember that relationships are not a competition.

Good luck.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jul 1, 2005)

While I can't say I agree with everything Xath said - I can say that I agree with this:



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> I'm not getting the "blow me off" vibe from your accounts.  But if you treat her like she blew you off, she will.
> 
> Be nice.




Next Wednesday, find some time finding a cool place to eat and call to suggest it.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jul 1, 2005)

Oh - also... if she gets all crazy and *does* start being all hose beast on you, take this advice:



			
				der_kluge said:
			
		

> Kill her and take her stuff.




   der_kluge, you are a wise man.


----------



## Bryon_Soulweaver (Jul 1, 2005)

Is it just me or are there mostly guys commenting?



Anyways, KenM, I'm in the same boat with you, females send some of the wierdest mixed signals and play all sorts of games. Since both of my bestfriends are a guy and a female, they had a baby not long ago, I can ask them for advise any time one any given situation. Females *want* you, then they say that they dont *want* a serious relationship.... its mind boggling.

One thing I've learned though, if the woman/girl says one thing, expect it to mean two or more different things. "I'll call you later, okay." "Okay, bye." "Bye.".................... They will call later that night or later in the week, its hard to tell. If you call them or they call you, and you ask about it, they will mostly say "I forgot." from what I've seen/heard.


----------



## Bryon_Soulweaver (Jul 1, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> der_kluge, you are a wise man.




ROFLMAO, literaly! And yes, yes he is!


----------



## Xath (Jul 1, 2005)

Bryon_Soulweaver said:
			
		

> Is it just me or are there mostly guys commenting?





I'm not a guy, and if you think Queen_Dopplepoppolis is a guy, you have some serious gender confusion issues.


----------



## Alan Shutko (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM, maybe you should try out for http://www.thewb.com/Shows/Special/0,11116,233632,00.html .  It seems to have helped other people.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jul 1, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I'm not a guy, and if you think Queen_Dopplepoppolis is a guy, you have some serious gender confusion issues.



 I think that an appropriate ratio of men to women are responding based on EN World's general population (lots more guys than girls, ya know ).


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 1, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> Let me be straightforward with you...
> 
> Women will never be straightforward.




Is this like the door puzzle in Labyrinth?  

Question: Do people with Asperger's only like Hack n' Slash?


----------



## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I'll take your word for it that it has nothin to do with untreated Asperger's Syndrome's tendency to make the subject love sameness and fear change more than they could ever dislike their current situation.




 God made me this way. If he wants He can change the way I am. I did not ask to be this way, God screwed me by making me this way. But I will not take drugs or pretend to be fake. As far as the GF taking me to those places, it was the SAME PEOPLE, ALL THE TIME. After the first 5 times of having the same converation, it gets old, fast.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> God made me this way. If he wants He can change the way I am. I did not ask to be this way, God screwed me by making me this way. But I will not take drugs or pretend to be fake...




Is God big on the pre-marital sex you have with Escorts?

Calling on religion is cop-out here man, and it's a cheap one.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 1, 2005)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> OK - So youre asking yourself now, what DO I say then? Have a plan. Something like this will work wonders:
> 
> "Hi Julie, it's Ken - How was your 4th of July weekend?
> 
> ...




This is vital.....VITAL! You must do something fun and interesting this weekend. No, your game is not fun and interesting to other people! You must go to a BBQ Festival, you must go to a fireworks display! You must do something fun and interesting, preferably with lots of friends!

If you have nothing to tell her interesting about this weekend, then you are doomed. You must be interesting.


----------



## orchid blossom (Jul 1, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> You are more likely to find someone if you stop trying and just let it happen naturally.






			
				Sigdel said:
			
		

> Bullcrap. I will say it again in you didn't hear me the first time. Bullcrap.
> Wow, I am so freakishly bitter, even I can't find any humor in it. Bullcrap.




Letting it happen naturally doesn't have to mean you don't try at all.  You keep your eyes open and take your opportunities.

It's more a matter of how you try.  If trying means living your life, going out and meeting some new people, and getting involved in things where like-minded women are likely to be, that's where the "happen naturally" can happen.  You're not out trying to get a date.  You're out trying to have a life and in the process meeting women who might be a good fit for you.

If you go out solely looking to meet someone for a romantic relationship purpose you're bound to be disappointed a lot.  Can it work?  Sure.  But I bet if you ask guys they can usually tell when a girl is out trolling for guys.  She'll be giving off a kind of creepy desperate vibe.  Guys can give off the same vibe when out trolling for girls.  And that vibe can be scary because you're thinking "If they want a girlfriend that bad, are they going to be clingy/possesive/needy when we're together?" 

So when someone says to let it happen naturally, I think they mean not to get tunnel vision about looking for a girlfriend.  You're more attractive to a girl when she can tell that single or part of a couple, you're confident all on your own.


----------



## The Shaman (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> If it makes you feel better, go to This thread to see what a truly low-fuctioning case of Aspergers looks like



*_shudder_*

That thread did spawn one of the funniest lines I've read on any bulletin board anywhere, though: "basement boi king of the rank mold people."

Ah, *Orblivia*, the boards are diminished without you...







			
				KenM said:
			
		

> I'm not expecting it to happen like that. I know I have to  get out there to find people. Thats why I have a personal ad online. I'm not comfortable going to a party and making small talk with a large group of people. Waste of time, IMO.
> Thats why I like the personals, you can get to know people one on one, thats what I like.



It sounds like you have a handle on how to manage this aspect of the syndrome - that's encouraging....







			
				KenM said:
			
		

> I just don't like it when people say A and do B....People need to just be honest with what the do and say. I always tell people that I need honesty above all else. But when I find out someone close has upset me and they were not truthful, I'm more mad at the fact they lied to me then whatever was the orginal fight was about.



This is where it gets sticky.

The behavior you're describing doesn't rise to the level of lying. In many cases it doesn't even fly as a 'little white lie'. People often intend to do things for which they simply don't follow-through. Their intent in the moment was genuine and sincere - there was no desire to deceive - but it wasn't matched by their subsequent effort. It may mean that a person is a little flaky - it doesn't make that person a liar however.

*KenM*, have you ever offered to do something and not followed-through? Was it your intent to lie, to deceive? Or did something come up, or you forgot, or you just lost interest? It happens - it's a normal part of being a human being.

I understand that you process information differently because of Asperger's - however, you've also demonstrated an understanding of the syndrome and your ability to adapt to it. This might be another area for you to work on - it starts with understanding that a failure to follow-through is not the same as an attempt at deception, and it continues with letting it go when it happens.

The temptation may be to attempt to 'call' the person on the error: "You said you were going to do X, but you didn't. Why not?" I can pretty much guarantee you that there is no explanation the person can give that will satisfy you - you will be able to poke apart all but the most carefully constructed rational argument. This serves no purpose. None.

My suggestion to you is this: if you absolutely must tell the person that their lack of follow-through was an issue for you (and you may be best served by just letting it go if you can), instead of, "You said you were going to do X...", try using another line, like, "I was disappointed I didn't hear from you, *but I'm glad we're talking now*." It's a way of expressing your feelings that lets the person know that you are interested not in the past but the present and allows the conversation to move on to better things. If the other person wants to explain, fine - listen without judging, say, "Thank you," and then move on to what you really want to do: make plans! spend time together! get to know each other!

Best of luck to you, *KenM*.


----------



## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Is God big on the pre-marital sex you have with Escorts?
> 
> Calling on religion is cop-out here man, and it's a cheap one.




  I never called on Religion, I called on God, to me there is a difference. So you think a guy that has trouble comminucating  with women should not go to an escort service when he needs it? Where everything is clear and upfront instead of the BS you have to deal with put up with from womens games? Why are you bringing up that other post? What have i done to hurt you? Whay are you trying to bring that up to other people? Why are you trying to hurt me?


----------



## drothgery (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Alas, that requires socializing brother
> 
> You think some woman just wants to walk up to you and announce "I would like to be your soul-mate"?




Ask for company for dinner and movie? Coffee? Someone to chat with in the break room? 

Nope? 

Didn't think so. Darn it.



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Honestly, from what I've seen this seems to be a really common Aspergers wish-fulfillment fantasy. But it's not going to happen, man.
> 
> It's just not.




If you're a guy who's had little or no success at initiating relationships, but isn't sufficiently bitter to give up on the idea entirely, the fantasy of encountering a woman who finds you sufficiently interesting to break cultural norms and initiate a relationship with you has a lot of appeal, no matter how unrealistic it is.

I mean, I know real people don't work this way. I know I've got a bad habbit of idealizing women. I know I tend to be very ackward in any social activity that doesn't involve work, gaming, or people I know very well. I know that the only way to get better at dealing with social situations is to be involved in more social situations, and that I'm not going to get a date by staying at my apartment reading, surfing the internet, and playing video games. Acting on this knowledge is the hard part.


----------



## devilbat (Jul 1, 2005)

> God made me this way. If he wants He can change the way I am. I did not ask to be this way, God screwed me by making me this way. But I will not take drugs or pretend to be fake. As far as the GF taking me to those places, it was the SAME PEOPLE, ALL THE TIME. After the first 5 times of having the same converation, it gets old, fast.




Man, this sounds an awful lot like "poor me".  

I understand medical problems, and I'm not saying they aren't a huge factor in your life, as I have NO clue.  But suggesting that you have no control of your curcumstances is an absolute cop out.  If you don't want to take drugs to control your medical issues, look into alternative medicines and treatments. If you want to meet a soulmate, get out of you "comfort zone" and put yourself into a position to meet someone.  The world doesn't owe you anything, and it's highly unlikely that that special someone will be delivered to your door.  

I work in a heavily social atmosphere, and sometimes I hate that I have to be nice to people I don't like, for the sake of business.  The truth of the matter is it's a means to an end, and a little short term uncomfortability, ensures long term success.


----------



## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> The behavior you're describing doesn't rise to the level of lying. In many cases it doesn't even fly as a 'little white lie'.




   Buut to people with AS, it is a lie. So its ok for people not to do things some days and do them when the feel like it? 



			
				The Shaman said:
			
		

> *KenM*, have you ever offered to do something and not followed-through?




   No.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> No.




Why do people have to lie?


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I never called on Religion, I called on God, to me there is a difference. So you think a guy that has trouble comminucating  with women should not go to an escort service when he needs it? Where everything is clear and upfront instead of the BS you have to deal with put up with from womens games?




I do when he claims (back in post #32)...

[bq]All I want is to find a nice girl to settle down with. I have the place, I have the job I'm happy with. I just want a special someone to share it with.[/bq]

You are, as is par for the course with those who suffer from Aspergers, trying to weasel your way out of having admitted that you don't like your life the way it is. In that Hida Bukkorisu thread, he did the same thing...started claiming that the things that were holding him back (by his own admission) were, in fact, _points of pride_.



			
				Kenm said:
			
		

> Why are you bringing up that other post? What have i done to hurt you? Whay are you trying to bring that up to other people?




Other people? It's posted in a public thread on this very messageboard. 

Why did I post it? I posted it to show that your attempts to dodge the facts (claimig that Aspergers was an Act of God and you wouldn't be defying his wishes) was nothing but that, a dodge.  

I'll ask you the same question: If you find the post hurtful, why did _you_ post it?



			
				Kenm said:
			
		

> Why are you trying to hurt me?




I'm not man, I'm trying to wake you up.


----------



## Aus_Snow (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> You think some woman just wants to walk up to you and announce "I would like to be your soul-mate"?
> 
> Honestly, from what I've seen this seems to be a really common Aspergers wish-fulfillment fantasy. But it's not going to happen, man.
> 
> It's just not.



Sometimes it just does.

I know that because it happened to me and my g/f.

OK, OK, not *literally* word for word as you put it there, but close enough that yeh, I feel compelled to dispute your claim.

In other words, I met the woman I love, have been with for years, and will be with 'for the duration', and we both knew it'd be this way the day we met. It was quite freaky really; it felt like something preordained (much as we both dislike that idea!) - only amplified by the fact that neither of us was 'looking to score', and there was no third-party involved at any stage.

Total strangers, chance meeting, and that was it.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

Aus_Snow said:
			
		

> Sometimes it just does.
> 
> I know that because it happened to me and my g/f.
> 
> ...




Congrats.

Do you think it's a common enough occurence that this should be his "Plan A"...particlularly given that he thinks talking to new people is "a waste of time" and "BS"?


----------



## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> You are, as is par for the course with those who suffer from Aspergers, trying to weasel your way out..........




 There you go, judging a person with a disablity and calling us all weasels. You have now idea of the hurt or pain I go though day to day. Don't judge me.


----------



## Aus_Snow (Jul 1, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Congrats.
> 
> Do you think it's a common enough occurence that this should be his "Plan A"...particlularly given that he thinks talking to new people is "a waste of time" and "BS"?



It depends what you're looking for.

But if the OP truly thinks that talking to new people is all that, well it won't matter what Plans A to Z are.


edit --- That might not have been very clear. OK. I think it might be about as common an occurence for those who *sincerely seek true love, i.e. a soulmate*, as is the occurence of meeting someone who you can be content with, when you're seeking exactly that.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> There you go, judging a person with a disablity and calling us all weasels.




Refer back to the Hida thread and watch how he shoots the messenger as well. 

I didn't call you weasel ken, I said you were "Weaseling out" of something.

I think it's very telling that that--of all things--is what you focused on in that post.



			
				Kenm said:
			
		

> You have now idea of the hurt or pain I go though day to day. Don't judge me.




I'll judge whatever I like Ken. That's what messageboards are for.

If you wanted unquestioning acceptance I'd advise you to go to a support group...but then I recall what you think of talking to strangers, even when the benefits are obvious.

If you don't want opinion, you came to the wrong place.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

Aus_Snow said:
			
		

> It depends what you're looking for.
> 
> But if the OP truly thinks that talking to new people is all that, well it won't matter what Plans A to Z are.




Agreed on both counts.


----------



## Rel (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> God made me this way. If he wants He can change the way I am. I did not ask to be this way, God screwed me by making me this way. But I will not take drugs or pretend to be fake.




A flash flood washes a man's house away down a rushing river and he manages to scramble onto the roof where he prays to God to help him survive.  As the house passes under a bridge, some onlookers lower a rope but the man lets it go by, calling out, "God will get me out of this!"  Soon a boat pulls up near him and the driver calls out for him to swim over to the boat but the man atop the drifting house refuses, "God will get me out of this!"  A couple minutes later, a helicopter lowers a basket down for the man but he refuses to get in saying, "God will get me out of this!"  The house then sinks and the man drowns.

He arrives in heaven where he says to God, "I asked you for help and you forsake me!  Why?!"

God says, "I sent a rope, a boat and a helicopter!  What more did you want?!"


See, Ken, God sent you Teflon Billy.  And Teflon Billy is not here to insult you because I suspect that if that if he were then he'd be doing a far more credible job than this.  He's just trying to help you get out of your own way.

I wish you luck.

And give that girl a call next week.


----------



## devilbat (Jul 1, 2005)

Well said


----------



## The_lurkeR (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Buut to people with AS, it is a lie. So its ok for people not to do things some days and do them when the feel like it?





Ken the people in this thread are *trying to help you*. If you've not noticed, they've said over and over again the answer to your question above is *YES!*

Little lies are standard social skills that 99% of the world use to interact and get by everyday. For reasons that have already been mentioned... (e.g. being polite, wanting an "out", not wanting to start an argument, etc... and sometimes just out of human error.)

If you expect to find someone who will "never lie" to you, (by your standard) you will most likely never find them.

If you want people to treat you differently, you should also make the effort to meet them halfway. I think finding some kind of therapy or training, might go a long way towards making you happy, and achieving your goal, once you have a better understanding of how other people work. Just saying "god made me this way, and I'm not changing" is a copout like Billy said, and isn't going to get you anywhere. You ever heard the whole 'definition of insanity' thing... about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?




Back to the original question...   

I think you are reading her wrong... unless she got bad vibes from you over the phone, which sounds like it's a possibility.

Does this girl in question know that you have AS?
If not how is she supposed to know, and treat you the way you're expecting? If you really expect people to interact differently with you than they do the rest of their relationships, then at the very least you should tell them upfront.

Something like... "I should tell you I have AS, so generally take things at their literal meanings. The good thing is when I talk with you, you can trust that I'm being bluntly honest, and in return I appreciate if you're the same way with me, and please be patient with me if I sometimes misunderstand you."

BigFreekinGoblinoid gave you the perfect roadmap to giving this girl a second chance, and I recommend following it.


----------



## Bront (Jul 1, 2005)

I hate it.  Bunt, Steal Home, Take a Pitch, all those signals are so confusing.


----------



## The Shaman (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> But to people with AS, it is a lie. So its ok for people not to do things some days and do them when the feel like it?



I understand AS - one of my wife's students suffers from it, and we both got an education over the course of a school year.

However, you've already indicated that you take steps to manage your AS - what's being suggested to you here by myself and others are additional things for you to consider as a part of managing the symptoms, to help you find your way among those cues that you have difficulty processing.

What you see as a lie simply isn't to people who don't suffer from AS - it may be thoughtless, it may be flaky, it may be a bit rude at times, but it isn't lying. The intent is sincere on some level. If you cannot make that leap of understanding, that's unfortunate - however, you still need to find a way to deal with that behavior in a way that isn't self-destructive of the social bonds you say you want to build. If as a consequence of your processing the only way that you can think of it is 'lying', then perhaps what you need to do is find a way to forgive people for the 'lies' they tell you. This sits at the core of my earlier suggestion to you - "I was disappointed but let's move because I'd like to get to know you better."

When I asked you if you've never failed to follow-through on anything, you replied:







			
				KenM said:
			
		

> No.



I'm certainly in no position to contradict you, so what I will say is this: it would make you an exception that beggars the statistical realities of the species.

It still comes back to whether or not you want to find ways to manage AS that allow you to function, and beyond function thrive, in a world where 99% of the people you are likely to meet don't see through the same lens that you do. It's very hard for someone with AS to take the point of view of someone else, but if you really want to achieve the things you say you do, this is one of the steps to managing your symptoms that you must take.

You're expecting people to accept you for who you are - meet them half-way by working to accept them for who they are. It can be done, but it takes work.


----------



## Prince of Happiness (Jul 1, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> See, Ken, God sent you Teflon Billy.
> 
> And give that girl a call next week.




Teflon Billy is on a mission from God. F***, I have a _lot_ of thinking to do this weekend. Mission from God.......GOD. Teflon Billy. *GOD*.

Damn.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I agree with you there. My behaviour is not associating with people that lie.




And, if you read the post you are quoting for that, you'll see that _that is the whole world. _



			
				Ken said:
			
		

> I will not lie and say I like something/ someone when I don't.




So you are rude/impolite..



			
				Ken said:
			
		

> I won't pretend to be socailable at a party when all I really want to do is go home and not have to put up with peoples stupid. petty talk.




So you are unfriendly.



			
				Ken said:
			
		

> One of my old GF's loved large get togethers. I hated them. I would just sit in a corner and watch. My GF would get mad at me for not getting to know people. I would say "why? I don't want anything to do with these people, this is a waste of time. You know I don't like these kind of things."




So you can't even attempt to share the interests of a Girlfriend.



			
				Ken said:
			
		

> I'm not going to pretend to be someone I'm not, for anyone.




You're batting 1000 man.

What do you think you are accomplishing/proving by sticking to this behviour?

You think you are making some kind of point? "Keeping it real". What's the goal here?

Becasue all I'm seeing from the above is a cranky jerk who can't get along with people under even the most favorable circumstances.

If I'm wrong, explain how.


----------



## Aus_Snow (Jul 1, 2005)

You need white lies, half-lies and omissions of truth to get by in this world, unless you're in some kind of crazy (sane?) culture that's somehow splintered off and gone the way of *complete* honesty and accountability for *all*.

...if such a thing existed.


Right, so back to reality: it's not black and white.

Even if it was, who's to say along which lines those distinctions should be made?

If 'Good' or 'integrity' is all about honesty, what about the pain, sorrow and strife that can be brought about by sticking doggedly to that?

Why wouldn't it be determined by one's intent?

Or the consequences of one's words and actions?


This is part of why I think sticking to that particular gun is usually going to be a bit foolish, at best.


----------



## Elephant (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Thats just it, I don't have fun with any large group of people. I don't see the need to sociallize like that and BS each other. Whats the point? So I can stroke my own ego? So I can feel "normal'? I am normal, IMO. If people don't like me or think I'm weird becuase I don't talk muck. Its they're loss. I'm already discouraged.




I'm going to have to go with Teflon Billy and The Shaman on this one.  Normal is not a claim you can make, given your diagnosis.  You can deceive yourself and claim normality, or you can try to deal with your condition and adapt to the difficulties that it causes.

Anyway, the advice in this thread is sound.  Call her on Tuesday, chat about your weekends for a bit, then ask her where she wants to go for dinner and what day works for her.

Do NOT, under any circumstances, accuse her of game-playing or lying because she cancelled on you for the weekend.  That will only scare her away, and hey - you obviously like her enough that it's worth at least a date with her.


----------



## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Update on the girl in question. She emailed me and told me that she met someone else and wanted to see how it would go. If she just told me this in the first place, it would have been cool. Why did she feel the need to lie? I am more hurt by people that lie then the fact she might see someone else. Her lose, I won't call her again. 
So when my boss asks me if I got done with that project when I'm not even half done I should say "its all set." When its not? Its ok I guess.
I admit. I have used escorts in the past when i was frustrated. It works for me I, don't hurt anyone. But looking for something more now. 
I did some thinking, I think people with AS that don't like to socialize are better off then people that always have to do that BS to feel good about themselves. We see that stuff for what it really is and everyone elses gets uptight when we don't play the raindeer games like everyone else does. I don't need to comform for anyone. If a person does not accept and like me for who I am, its they're lose. Thats all I want, somneone to accept me for who I am.
I have AS, I don't like to socialize in large groups. Why do most people on here think I will find someone simialar to me that does not like larger social gatherings at a large social gathering? I usaly tell someone I'm interested in that I have AS after we talked for a bit, or on the second date or so. I found out if I do it upfront, it scares them away.


----------



## Aus_Snow (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Update on the girl in question. She emailed me and told me that she met someone else and wanted to see how it would go. If she just told me this in the first place, it would have been cool. Why did she feel the need to lie?



Either to spare your feelings, or to play it both ways and see which one was more appealing (for whatever reasons), I'd say.



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> I am more hurt by people that lie then the fact she might see someone else. Her lose, I won't call her again.



So you are hurt by *all* people a lot of the time? That's a world of pain you've settled for there.



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> So when my boss asks me if I got done with that project when I'm not even half done I should say "its all set." When its not? Its ok I guess.



Case by case.



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> I admit. I have used escorts in the past when i was frustrated. It works for me I, don't hurt anyone. But looking for something more now.



Cool.



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> I did some thinking, I think people with AS that don't like to socialize are better off then people that always have to do that BS to feel good about themselves. We see that stuff for what it really is and everyone elses gets uptight when we don't play the raindeer games like everyone else does. I don't need to comform for anyone. If a person does not accept and like me for who I am, its they're lose. Thats all I want, somneone to accept me for who I am.



Beware of having too much faith in your own understanding of people, society and life in general. And make *extra* sure it isn't (ironically) BS to feel good about yourself.



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> I have AS, I don't like to socialize in large groups. Why do most people on here think I will find someone simialar to me that does not like larger social gatherings at a large social gathering? I usaly tell someone I'm interested in that I have AS after we talked for a bit, or on the second date or so. I found out if I do it upfront, it scares them away.



Yet you said only a few sentences ago that you want someone to accept you for who you are. So why omit the truth (i.e. lie) until it's supposedly more convenient to be honest?


----------



## nerfherder (Jul 1, 2005)

Aus_Snow said:
			
		

> Yet you said only a few sentences ago that you want someone to accept you for who you are. So why omit the truth (i.e. lie) until it's supposedly more convenient to be honest?



Ken, before you answer that question, think about *why* Aus Snow is asking it.

Is he:
a) trying to score points and "beat" you in an online debate; or
b) trying to help you understand why most people do things that you regard as lies (and thus help you accurately read situations and not get unduly upset by them)?

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## nerfherder (Jul 1, 2005)

Ken,

I think it might help if you step back and look at the big picture.  This is one big "How can we help Ken find his soulmate?" thread.  Everyone is trying to *help you*.  No one is attacking you.  Some people are challenging you, but that is to make you think about what you're saying, not to try and hurt you.

Try and look at it this way.  You have a goal of meeting your soulmate and living happily ever after (which is not disimilar to a lot of people).  People have given you good advice on how to achieve that goal.  Each piece of advice on its own might increase your chances of achieving that goal by, I dunno, 10%.  If you totally ignore that piece of advice, then your chance of achieving your goal increases by 0%.

Sometimes the advice will just not be relevant to you, or it might be difficult to enact (possibly very difficult because of your AS, which I have no knowledge of - I'm only going off what I've read in this thread).  Where that's the case, there is probably some way you can compromise that may still increase your chance of achieving your goal (don't forget about your goal; never forget your goal) by 5% say.  So, instead of saying "No, I hate doing that, so it's no good", say "Argh! I really hate doing that because of X.  Can anyone suggest something similar, but which minimises X?"

I think the online personal ad is a good idea.  It's a method of increasing the number of single women that you interact with.  Be aware that a lot of what you consider lying is likely to occur though.  A person on an online dating site is not just setting up a date with one person and seeing how that goes.  They are generally chatting to lots of people and setting up multiple dates.  That's normal.  Don't get upset by it.  Shrug, and do the same yourself.  But don't mention it to the women you chat to, or ask them if they are doing the same.  It's one of those unwritten rules.

And, from your update above, it sounds like this is exactly what she was doing.  It's normal.  Don't let it get to you.  Don't say "this is unfair" - we all already know that!  Do the same thing yourself.  Not out of spite, but because you want to meet a few people, not feel like you have to settle down with the first person that seems ok.

Hope this helps,
Liam


----------



## reveal (Jul 1, 2005)

This thread reminds me of my mother in law. She chains smokes and has emphazema. She lives with a man who is constantly sick yet he smokes as well. She will not come to see her own grandson, who's now 3, because her home business, which is doing very well, "would suffer."

Basically, she's put herself in a situation where she suffers but constantly whines to my wife and expect her to feel sympathy. And every time my wife tries to offer suggestions on how my mother in law can help her self, my MIL comes up with excuses or tries to rationalize her behavior. I learned a long time ago that all my MIL wants is attention. If bad things didn't happen to her, she would never be able to say "oh poor me" so I just stopped paying attention to her. It just got frustrating because she's never going to change.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 1, 2005)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> It's just that when you're a straight guy, there's no other game that seems quite so important to win.



Yahtzee?


----------



## reveal (Jul 1, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Yahtzee?




Nah. Monopoly!


----------



## Rel (Jul 1, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Nah. Monopoly!




Yeah, it's Monopoly alright.  My father told me once when I was about 14, _"Son, what you're going to have to come to understand is that women have a monopoly on the *slang word for female genitalia*."_ 

He got popped by my stepmom for saying that but I know Quintessential Truths of the Universe when I hear them and that one stuck with me.  It's a sellers market when it comes to this particular product and the trick is figuring out how to accumulate the necessary capital in order to obtain it.

Ken has already figured out one method (cash) that seems to work well enough in the limited scope of what it provides.  Other currencies commonly used are wit, romance, security, good looks and of course the ever-popular jewelry.


----------



## Aus_Snow (Jul 1, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> Ken, before you answer that question, think about *why* Aus Snow is asking it.
> 
> Is he:
> a) trying to score points and "beat" you in an online debate; or
> ...



My apologies if my motive was less than transparent.

It's actually neither 'a' (I *truly* couldn't care less about that, except perhaps in jest from time to time), nor 'b' (in this instance, I wasn't being altruistic either), but in fact c) noting what appeared to be hypocrisy.

Why does it automatically have to be either 'Good' or 'Evil' anyway?

I've known hypocrisy on the inside and out, as I'm quite sure most people have, and I believe that pointing it out is often a good thing to do, provided that it might in a given instance provide food for thought, or help break some unconscious habit etc.

It's not _always_ a good thing to do, of course - I realise this. If it was the wrong decision, I'm sure I'll be told


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Jul 1, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> Women will never be straightforward.  Even if you enter into a serious relationship, the games continue.  If she's upset, she won't tell you she's upset.  You're supposed to know she's upset and know the reason why she's upset, all without her telling you with words.  However, if you don't know why she's upset, you're just going to prove her point, whatever it is, and give her a physical being on which to vent her frustrations.




My wife's favorite game.  "Why am I pissed?"  I've finally made it past round one, which is "I'm upset, but when you ask, I'll tell you I'm just fine."  To take her at what she TELLS me is wrong.  I have to KNOW she's upset.  SHe won't tell me.  In fact, she'll lie right to my face & tell me she fine, then blow up a couple of hours later, because I didn't realize she was upset ("But you TOLD me you were OK" is not an acceptable excuse).

Now we have to play 20 questions about why she's upset.  Actually, it more like 3 questions, as she gets REALLY mad is I can't guess what's wrong just be reading her mind.

On a related note:

Women have issues (as do men).  But one of them is usually their bodies.  My wife is cute, but still thinks every pair of jeans in the western hemisphere makes her but look "HUGE".  Which, thakfully isn't the case.  So I can tell her, "No, you look fine in those jeans, but maybe you should try on these low-rise jeans over here..."  (Still hasn't worked, but I'll keep trying.

On the other hand, I have a friend whose SO is a little on the heavy side.  If 5'2 & 300+ lbs still is considered 'heavy', as opposed to 'Land-Whale'.  So, one day I'm eating lunch with them at an all-you-can-eat place (her wieght issues are defintily food related, I'll leave it at that).  But as we are talking she tells us that "All that pants they make nowdays make my ass look HUGE!"  Now came a 'Predefined Moment'.  He's supposed to tell her "No, those pants don't make your ass look huge."  A guy at the table behind us is actually chocking on some Kung-Pao Chicken at ther statement.  Everyone within earshot is thinking "The stretch pants don't make your ass look huge, the 100 lbs of cellulite are doing that quite nicely & the 4 ice cream cones you just inhaled are adding nicely to the illusion."  But, even though the laws of physics clearly state that her behind is exerting a gravitational force well beyond those of ordinary mortals, and that Haggendase is considering putting a bill board across both cheeks readable from space, he tells her "No, those pants don't make you look fat."

But, seeing how the item is question was her prodigious posterior and not the emminsity of the rest of her corpulent form, she fires back with a "So, You Think I'm FAT?!"  (More chocking sounds of Kung-Pao Guy).  At this point an arguement breaks out.  I'm embarressed, my friend is trying to calm her down and the manager is worried about his chair.  In the end, she retreats to 4 more ice cream cones (which contains more clues about her problems than any yelling going on).

I'm just glad I can tell me wife she doesn't look fat in those pants/skirt/top/swimsuit/etc and MEAN it.  As I'm a losy liar.


----------



## Rel (Jul 1, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> As I'm a losy lair.




Well she clearly married you for your honesty.

As opposed to say, your spelling.


----------



## reveal (Jul 1, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Well she clearly married you for your honesty.
> 
> As opposed to say, your spelling.




Well, LOS is defined as "[t]he term United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea (UNCLOS, also called simply the Law of the Sea or LOS) refers to several United Nations events and one international treaty. The events the term refers to are the (First) United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea, the Second United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea, and the Third United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea. The treaty resulting from the Third United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea also bears the name United Nations[.]"

Maybe they just don't see eye to eye on this topic.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Jul 1, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> As opposed to say, your spelling.




My spelling is really very good.  By that I mean I know when I've spelled something wrong.  In fact, when I post really long posts, I usually type everything out, copy it into Word, spell check & edit it, then copy it back into my post.  I sometimes forget.  Or am lazy.

Does this thing have a Spell-check?


----------



## The_Universe (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Thanks for everyones input. I'm about to tell you people something I have not shared with that many people. I have Asperger Syndrome. Basically I have a very hard time reading body laguage, social cues, ect.. I really dislike large social situations and I shy away from them. I have trouble making "small talk", ect.. So when someone says "lets meet for dinner", i think thats what she wants to do.



 Hey, at least you know, and can react with an awareness of your (really, relatively minor once you've identified it) social problem.  

Give her a call next week - it sounded to me like she just forgot, though I admit that I wasn't there. If she blows you off after that, it's probably time to move on, but don't get angry.  People's desires change from moment to moment, and they're naturally forgetful.  

I blew off the woman-who-is-now-my-wife the first time she asked me "out" because I was not consciously aware that she was in to me.  It just hadn't occurred to me that she might be interested, even though we'd been talking and talking and talking for like a month. So, she asked me over to her house, I said I'd stop by, and then I didn't, because I didn't think it was all that big of a deal to her.  If I hadn't been a total smacktard, we'd probably have an anniversary 2-3 weeks sooner than the one we *do* celebrate.


----------



## Rel (Jul 1, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Well, LOS is defined as "[t]he term United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea (UNCLOS, also called simply the Law of the Sea or LOS) refers to several United Nations events and one international treaty. The events the term refers to are the (First) United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea, the Second United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea, and the Third United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea. The treaty resulting from the Third United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea also bears the name United Nations[.]"
> 
> Maybe they just don't see eye to eye on this topic.




So you're saying that the "LOSy Lair" is that big building in New York with all the flags out front?


----------



## reveal (Jul 1, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> So you're saying that the "LOSy Lair" is that big building in New York with all the flags out front?




Nope.


----------



## Rel (Jul 1, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> My spelling is really very good.  By that I mean I know when I've spelled something wrong.  In fact, when I post really long posts, I usually type everything out, copy it into Word, spell check & edit it, then copy it back into my post.  I sometimes forget.  Or am lazy.
> 
> Does this thing have a Spell-check?




I don't think it does and it really doesn't bother me.  I misspell words all the time too.

I wasn't really trying to pick on you.  But "losy lair" just struck me as funny and I have too much time on my hands this morning.  No worries.


----------



## Waylander the Slayer (Jul 1, 2005)

EQUATION 1
People in groups= meeting people and interacting with people
Small talk = getting to know people and people knowing you
People getting to know you = Building relationships
Relationships = friends, lovers and future wives.

EQUATION 2

Angry hostile people (excuses can range from, "I am anti-social" to "this is all phony" to "this is pointless") = people you do not want to talk to (who wants to talk to someone rude???)


The fact of the matter is, people that consider themselves "anti social" etc, from personal observation, have issues with their image and who they are. Got to love yourself man! This is easier said than done. Work on your body image, your career and all of your interests, and never let fear stop you- do something you are afraid to do everyday. The rest will take care of itself.


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## The_Universe (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Thats just it, I don't have fun with any large group of people. I don't see the need to sociallize like that and BS each other.  Whats the point? So I can stroke my own ego? So I can feel "normal'? I am normal, IMO. If people don't like me or think I'm weird becuase I don't talk muck. Its they're loss.  I'm already discouraged.



 Women love listeners.  You don't need to be gregarious - you just need to be *somewhere* where you're available, and social settings are the places that women are *tuned* to look for dudes to hang out with.  As long as you're reasonably friendly, you'll be fine. You don't even need to say a thing about yourself. Ask questions, and then let others talk.  You don't need to pretend that you don't have a problem - just head out there to the limits of yoru comfort zone, and I bet you'll find some people out there at the limits of *their* comfort zones, too.   

Don't get mad at the posters in this thread, buddy. I haven't read a single word from someone who isn't genuinely trying to help you find the soul mate you're looking for. Even (and ESPECIALLY) Teflon Billy.


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## The_Universe (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Update on the girl in question. She emailed me and told me that she met someone else and wanted to see how it would go. If she just told me this in the first place, it would have been cool. Why did she feel the need to lie? I am more hurt by people that lie then the fact she might see someone else. Her lose, I won't call her again.
> So when my boss asks me if I got done with that project when I'm not even half done I should say "its all set." When its not? Its ok I guess.
> I admit. I have used escorts in the past when i was frustrated. It works for me I, don't hurt anyone. But looking for something more now.
> I did some thinking, I think people with AS that don't like to socialize are better off then people that always have to do that BS to feel good about themselves. We see that stuff for what it really is and everyone elses gets uptight when we don't play the raindeer games like everyone else does. I don't need to comform for anyone. If a person does not accept and like me for who I am, its they're lose. Thats all I want, somneone to accept me for who I am.
> I have AS, I don't like to socialize in large groups. Why do most people on here think I will find someone simialar to me that does not like larger social gatherings at a large social gathering? I usaly tell someone I'm interested in that I have AS after we talked for a bit, or on the second date or so. I found out if I do it upfront, it scares them away.



 This might be part of the problem, buddy - Aspergers isn't "who you are" any more than "fat" is "who I am."  They're not points of pride. They're not things that either of us should think make us superior to the general populace.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they're both problems that we should make some effort to repair, or at least mitigate the harm they might cause. 

Who you are is something that a mild mental disorder prevents others from seeing, because it walls you off from them. Over time, I'm sure you've had people get inside that wall...but a tentative romance is not likely to provide the kind of motivation to lay siege to those walls.  There are ways to lower them - drugs are one of them.  I wouldn't recommend them. After all, as TB has so wonderfully pointed out, you may not be able to control how you feel, but you always control how you act. The key is realizing that how you feel isn't always a good guide to how you should act.  

Bummer about this girl. That sucks. Maybe she'll decide she missed out and give you a call. But there are other girls, and they're out *looking* for a really nice guy that (in most threads) you seem to be. You just need to be somewhere where they can find you: out of your apartment, and out from behind the aspergers. 

Best to you, buddy. I wish you luck.


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## spatha (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Buut to people with AS, it is a lie. So its ok for people not to do things some days and do them when the feel like it?




In a word YES.


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## The_Universe (Jul 1, 2005)

spatha said:
			
		

> In a word YES.



 Right - as long as it's not ridiculous (which is how I expect every deviation seems to someone with AS).  Here's a good trick - assign less importance to every day events. If something like this really upsets you, your perspective is a little out of whack. You might not be able to change it. But even just being *aware* that its out of whack helps.


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## alsih2o (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Ok, so I was talking with this girl I meeet though a personal service. We have not meet, just talked on the phone. SHE asks if I wanted to meet her tonight for dinner. I said sure. So at my lunch hour today, I call her today on my lunch hour to take care of the details, ect.. Then she says she can't meet because she has to make plans with her family for the holiday weekend.  Why ask me to dinner and then back off all of sudden? I'm sick and tired of getting mixed signals from women.  "Ken, i know I kissed you on the mouth, but I did not mean it THAT way." and " I know I'm sleeping right against you in my panites and your tshirt, but we are just friends."  Why can't women be more straghtforward?




 I figure 5% or less of ENWorld is women. Do you really think you are going to get an answer that is a solution from a gaming website that is over 90% men?


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## Droid101 (Jul 1, 2005)

Damn, Teflon Billy ownz.


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## alsih2o (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> God made me this way. If he wants He can change the way I am. I did not ask to be this way, God screwed me by making me this way. But I will not take drugs or pretend to be fake. As far as the GF taking me to those places, it was the SAME PEOPLE, ALL THE TIME. After the first 5 times of having the same converation, it gets old, fast.




 So, if god took your legs would you refuse crutches or a wheelchair?

 Drugs are a physical aid, just like crutches. Think about it.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 1, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> You have to give more then you get.  You can't be unbending, if you are you will break the relationship.  Communication is so very important.



This could be one of the most important statements made in this thread, so I'll quote it one more time.


			
				Harmon said:
			
		

> You have to give more then you get.  You can't be unbending, if you are you will break the relationship.  Communication is so very important.



I will admit that my knowledge and understanding of Asperger's is pretty minimal, but I think you, Ken,  have to understand that unless you find an absolute saint of a woman who completely understands this difference you have, you will have no choice but to make some efforts on your part, some of which may not come naturally.

Completely honest, completely open communications do not work with most of the U.S. population that does not have Apserger's Syndrome.  Those of us who do not have this condition _ do _ say things we do not mean in order to be polite and we also expect other people to do the same, it is a part of our culture, and is not something that is easy to change.  

What you are going to have to accept is that, when you find a woman who is genuinely interested in you and is willing to accept you for who you are, she will, out of understanding of you condition, make an effort at being more directly honest with you.  It will not be natural for her to do so, and as result she may not be perfect at it.  You then have to go against your own natural tendencies and try and accept that she was not trying to be hurtful or deceiving, but just acted naturally.

As an aside, my guess is that the personal ads may not be the best way for you to meet women.  The early stages of dating someone whom you do not know are difficult enough without this potential communication disconnect that your Asperger's could bring on.  I would think your best bet would be to meet women through people you know who understand you and who could help bridge any potential misunderstandings.  I could be way off on this, but maybe not.


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## Mercule (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Sorry that guy was annoying. I generally don't do any social things except when I have to, small groups of close friends, people I work with, at work. I don't want to get the wrong signal fromm anyone and screw it up. Also, I really don't care about people making "small talk" or seeming generally interested in what someone else has to say at a party that I never met before when I could care less. I'm sure everyone at the party is nice and all, but I don't need anything from them or want anything to do with them. All that socialiizing and small talk is boring and I can tell people are doing it just to be polite. I really don't feel the need to do all that BS'ing, and people label me a freak because I don't like to socialize. All I want is to find a nice girl to settle down with. I have the place, I have the job I'm happy with. I just want a special someone to share it with.
> I have a cousin I only see once a year on Xmas eve. After I got my first real computer, that year I gave her my email because she said she was going to email me. I thought it would be great and we could grow closer. The whole year went by and not a signal email. When I saw her again I asked why she did not email me. She shrugged and said "sorry I forgot, hehe" and laughed it off as some kind of joke. I talked about this with someone and they told me when she said she would email me, it was just small talk and I should not have taken it like she was going to accually do it. WTF? Its ok for someone to say they are going to do something and then not do it? If I said I was going to do something and did not do it, people would think I'm lazy or dumb. But its ok for other people to do that, but not me.
> That is how someone with AS sees other people. Thanks for letting me vent about it.




What's the most common word in that post?  "I".  "I want", "I'm happy", "I need".  Are you really saying that you have no interest in what the lady wants?  If so, you don't deserve to have a ladyfriend.

Look, I hate small talk.  I really don't care about how my wife almost dropped the last pound of ground beef in the dog bowl, but saved it so we could have dinner.  It all worked out, right?  Why tell me?  I dunno.  I listen, though.  Why?  BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT TO _HER_ AND SHE'S IMPORTANT TO ME.  

Until you're willing to make your SO's priorities a priority to you, you aren't going to have a good relationship.  Ever.  That doesn't mean that you should be a doormat.  It does mean that you should have feelings for them as a person and not just as a tool.

In fact, until you are willing to at least _pretend_ to be interested in the other person for more than what you can get from them, you probably won't have more than a second date.  That's because you're openly asking them to be a doormat for you.

If you are unwilling to bend on this, I suggest you move to Nevada, where prostitution is legal and hire a housekeeper/cook.  That should meet all your solitary needs.

Oh, and before you think I'm being insulting, I'm not.  You said you have trouble reading between the lines.  I'm just being blunt and straightforward.


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## TiQuinn (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I did some thinking, I think people with AS that don't like to socialize are better off then people that always have to do that BS to feel good about themselves.




Yes, this thread is a testimony to how better off you are.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 1, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I'm not a guy, and if you think Queen_Dopplepoppolis is a guy, you have some serious gender confusion issues.





 

I guess this person's mixing us up with Teflon Billy, who's done alot of the advice posting here...


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## Turanil (Jul 1, 2005)

This looks like a flame war... I must post before the thread is closed.   



> I think finding some kind of therapy or training, might go a long way towards making you happy



This coment may sound insulting, but I would nonetheless advice the same. I think that you are overreacting to rude behaviours, and thus suffering. However, it's much easier to change oneself (yet it's very difficult) than change others. A good therapy could alleviate certain forgotten humiliations (100% conjectures of course) that make you badly react to rude behaviors (even slightly rude).


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> God made me this way. If he wants He can change the way I am. I did not ask to be this way, God screwed me by making me this way. But I will not take drugs or pretend to be fake. As far as the GF taking me to those places, it was the SAME PEOPLE, ALL THE TIME. After the first 5 times of having the same converation, it gets old, fast.





God didn't "screw you over". He has a plan for all this... You just don't know what it is.... And you're not the first guy to have had 5 times of dealing with women issues... I have two friends who have that same #...  :\ There's one out there for ya... and one who can understand the health problems you have.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 1, 2005)

Maybe find an online community for folks with Aspberger's and meet someone through that?


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I never called on Religion, I called on God, to me there is a difference. So you think a guy that has trouble comminucating  with women should not go to an escort service when he needs it? Where everything is clear and upfront instead of the BS you have to deal with put up with from womens games? Why are you bringing up that other post? What have i done to hurt you? Whay are you trying to bring that up to other people? Why are you trying to hurt me?




Ignore crap like this, Ken. If all you wanted was sex and nothing but, this'd be fine. But not for what you're looking for: a meaningful relationship. Which, IMO, is more important than just getting some booty. I think that you're gonna have to socialize to meet women and see if there's one who might have an interest in you... put aside any negativity you might have about socializing, women and the like or you'd just scare them off... be yourself. Be nice, courteous, friendly and be willing to talk about most anything, even if it goes under "small talk"... Who knows... you might find a date for Friday night...   You may have to be "bold" to a woman you might find interesting and ask her if she's got plans for Friday night...


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Jul 1, 2005)

Wow Ken, 

This thread is like some sort of new age cleansing for you. Bravo for your full disclosure. I for one have a lot more respect for you than I previously had, especially now that I know about your condition. I'm speaking broadly here, and won't provide any specific examples, as there is really no point to that, but frankly, your strong opinions have turned me off a bit in the past.

Just goes to show that people shouldn't be so quick to judge until they fully understand a situation. There's always something you don't know. 

This thread has become many other things besides its original intentions, but I'll end with encouraging you to get outside of your comfort zone and put yourself out there in more social situations when possible. People that will like you, and that you like, are out there, but you aint gonna meet them in your living room. 

Thanks for sharing Ken, you have gained at least one friend through this. And hey, we are not all perfect. Check out this thread for some laughs at our expense! 
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=138247


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## Alan Shutko (Jul 1, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I think that you're gonna have to socialize to meet women and see if there's one who might have an interest in you... put aside any negativity you might have about socializing, women and the like or you'd just scare them off... be yourself. Be nice, courteous, friendly and be willing to talk about most anything, even if it goes under "small talk"... Who knows... you might find a date for Friday night...




Exactly.  And remember, that although you might not be interested in someone, that person can still be valuable to you.  I mean, I stopped to talk to a neighbor I didn't really know because I was a little early to the neighborhood meeting, and now she's planning on setting me up with her friend.  Meeting people is like finding a job: you can look all you want online, but it's a lot easier if you know people who know other people who might know someone that fits.  Some groups of friends are pretty insular, but most people belong to several groups of friends and by getting to know them, you'll be more likely to be invited to events with other people they know you might get along with.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Update on the girl in question. She emailed me and told me that she met someone else and wanted to see how it would go. If she just told me this in the first place, it would have been cool. Why did she feel the need to lie? I am more hurt by people that lie then the fact she might see someone else. Her lose, I won't call her again.




Now that's just plain low down, dirty and mean. She shoulda been up front about this. If she's trying to see how many she can twist around her little finger then she isn't worthy for you. 'Cause all she's gonna do is lie all the time, if this is any indication.... It's best to cut her loose and try again.... Sorry it didn't work out.


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## Hijinks (Jul 1, 2005)

> Oh, and don't be afraid to say "sorry, I'm not free Tuesday and Thursday next week, can we make it Wednesday?". It lets her know that you already have a social life and don't just sit at home watching TV and surfing the internet every night. A female friend told me that little "game".




I wouldn't personally recommend to someone who doesn't understand mind games, to play a mind game of their own.

What I *would* recommend to Ken is to be honest. I am a single woman (and relatively intelligent), and I have used the internet personals quite a bit (thank you Match.com for the relationship I am currently in). I would not, in any way, shape, or form, be put off by a man I'd been talking to saying "I have a condition where I don't read social signals very well and can't determine a difference between small talk and honest interest. If you don't want to go out with me, please just say so." That would not offend me in the slightest, and I would respond with a honest, true answer.

From a female point of view, what this woman did sounded to me like the occasional female flakiness that I, and many other woman, experience from time to time. I myself did not realize this upcoming weekend was a 3-day weekend until yesterday ( and dang, that was nice to realize! ) Sometimes you just forget! It didn't sound to me like she was trying to blow you off.  

EDIT:  Ok I finally read through the whole thread and read that she said she was seeing someone else now.  When you're a woman using an internet personal service, you have several men emailing you.  Sometimes you might like one more than others, but want to meet the others too; if the one you really like doesn't ask to meet you that weekend, why not ask another guy to meet you instead?  Then when the first guy does ask at the last minute ... it's crappy that she did that, in my opinion, but I understand it.  She should have been upfront with you that she was speaking to other men also, but I would suggest assuming that for future endeavors; assume that the woman you're talking to online is talking to several men at once, and trying to figure out which one she likes the most.



> I talked about this with someone and they told me when she said she would email me, it was just small talk and I should not have taken it like she was going to accually do it.




To be honest, most people do not see emailing someone else as a high priority in life. Many people have families, children, jobs, more than one job, or a combination of all of those. We're busy. Remember to email someone you talked with once last year isn't something that I would typically remember. I would be sorry if that hurt the person's feelings, but at the time that I said "I'll email you!" I would certainly have an intention of doing it, but small things like that can slip a busy person's mind.

When I was younger, I always remembered birthdays and sending cards and such, I never forgot a family member's birthday. Then I moved twice in 2 years, got a boyfriend, was suddenly very busy, and I started forgetting. I couldn't believe I would forget things that I previously had done so well, but that just goes to show how busy people can be.

Cut the poor girl some slack =\ Why not email her?!?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jul 1, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> What I *would* recommend to Ken is to be honest.  I am a single woman (and relatively intelligent), and I have used the internet personals quite a bit (thank you Match.com for the relationship I am currently in).  I would not, in any way, shape, or form, be put off by a man I'd been talking to saying "I have a condition where I don't read social signals very well and can't determine a difference between small talk and honest interest.  If you don't want to go out with me, please just say so."  That would not offend me in the slightest, and I would respond with a honest, true answer.




I'll definately second that.  Very wise advice, Hijinks.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 1, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> My spelling is really very good.  By that I mean I know when I've spelled something wrong.  In fact, when I post really long posts, I usually type everything out, copy it into Word, spell check & edit it, then copy it back into my post.  I sometimes forget.  Or am lazy.
> 
> Does this thing have a Spell-check?




Don't feel bad. I have a friend who, if you look at his IMs, you'd think he can't spell worth a darn.... but if he types out stuff in an email, his spelling is vastly better. Granted he doesn't know what the "shift" key is for....   Everything is in lower-case. And Rel is only teasing you... like I teased my friend once for his spelling...


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## Arashi Ravenblade (Jul 1, 2005)

Maybe im expecting too much out of people but how hard is it to remeber that a holiday is coming, or that you have plans with other people. Personally i think this "selective Memory"( Unless you have a clinical memory problem (like my mother) there is no reason ot forget things) people have is just a lame excuse to blow people off to get out of things, I know when i was in high school i used it alot, but being older (not by much im only 22) i just say id rather not do somthing then have to lie or come up with an excuse not to. It really comes down to people being selfish and not caring about others feelings, and not having the common decency to tell someone straight up that their not interested, theres actually a situation i regret because i sort of tiptoed around prom with this one girl i wasnt interested in, instead of telling her i wasnt interested i ignored her, i feel bad i did that because people have blown me off like that, maybe one day this person will fell bad (for blowing ken off), but not likely as most are selfish.


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## Hijinks (Jul 1, 2005)

> how hard is it to remeber that a holiday is coming




Hmm .. and yet I just got finished saying that I forgot it was coming up also.  Guess I'm a manipulative woman trying to scam someone?

People .. get .. busy.  And as you age, yes you start to forget things that were easy to remember in the early 20's.

I think the advice of having someone you know introduce you to some women, rather than relying on internet personals, is good advice.  However, you don't seem the type to want to make friends, to be honest.  You want to be alone, yet you want a woman, but she has to not have any other friends because you don't like to socialize.  That's how I'm reading it.  I'm not trying to be insulting, but that is how it appears to many of us, I think.

What woman is going to want to give up her entire social circle of friends for a possible boyfriend?  You've already said you refuse to socialize with other people.


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## Tobold Hornblower (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> " I know I'm sleeping right against you in my panites and your tshirt, but we are just friends."



That sounds like a very interesting story.  Reading between the lines, this is what I've got so far:

You had the hots for this girl and let her know as much.  She got into bed with you, wanting to be seduced by you.  You then put the lie to the so-hot-for-her impression she'd gotten; you made hardly any effort to seduce her, being put off by her first feeble resistance.

Poor girl must have been crushed--feeling cheap and rejected.  I can hear her crying to her girlfriend the next day, "Once he saw me in my panties he must have thought my thighs were fat.  He just seemed to get mad, roll over, and ignore me."


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 1, 2005)

Arashi Ravenblade said:
			
		

> Maybe im expecting too much out of people but how hard is it to remeber that a holiday is coming, or that you have plans with other people. Personally i think this "selective Memory"( Unless you have a clinical memory problem (like my mother) there is no reason ot forget things) people have is just a lame excuse to blow people off to get out of things, I know when i was in high school i used it alot, but being older (not by much im only 22) i just say id rather not do somthing then have to lie or come up with an excuse not to. It really comes down to people being selfish and not caring about others feelings, and not having the common decency to tell someone straight up that their not interested, theres actually a situation i regret because i sort of tiptoed around prom with this one girl i wasnt interested in, instead of telling her i wasnt interested i ignored her, i feel bad i did that because people have blown me off like that, maybe one day this person will fell bad (for blowing ken off), but not likely as most are selfish.




First off, people do forget things who don't have clinical memory problems.  Often it is confusion about the calendar.  I often think I have to do something next weekend, only to discover later in the week that it is in fact set for _ this _ weekend.  Sorry, between work, kids, class etc. I can lose track.  I know I should keep a better calendar (day-timer, PDA, however), but I don't, I never update it.  I apologize if you see that as selfish and not caring about other people's feelings.  

As for telling people someone straight, who said in Ken's case the woman wasn't interested?  Maybe she was more interested in Bachelor #2, but thought, by Ken's calling and asking if she was still interested, she had been given an opportunity to keep the option open on Ken if Bachelor #2 turned out to be a jerk.  Is it the nicest thing to do?  No, but at the same time, if she had been honest and said "Hey, I was contacted by this other guy who wants to go out the same night.  I think we have more in common that you and I do, so I'm going to go out with him instead.  If I don't like him, I'll call you," do you really think any guy would stick around waiting?  She is then left with no options.  Sure there are better ways to handle these situations, but as we all know none of us are perfect, especially when it comes to relationships.


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## Hijinks (Jul 1, 2005)

> I apologize if you see that as selfish and not caring about other people's feelings.



 Don't apologize to him, he's the one who can't understand that not everyone is as perfect as he is.


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## Desdichado (Jul 1, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> Does this thing have a Spell-check?



Who cares?  "I'm a losy lair" is comedy gold!


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## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 1, 2005)

Just a note from someone who's dated at least one person confirmed with Asperger's Syndrome, and likely a second unconfirmed -- the biggest problem I've had is feeling as if I'm actually loved and appreciated, and as if the girl I was dating had some actual interest in who I am and my life.  Didn't help much that they had no patience for talking about things like, for e.g., the relationship, either.  I never really felt like I was _relevant_ or _important_ to their lives, or that they were willing to make themselves vulnerable to me, which is generally not a good thing to feel if you're someone's girlfriend.

I think, KenM, if you're really going to be looking for romance, you're going to have to -- no, not reject who you are, but reach out beyond yourself to touch the other person.  Otherwise, she'll just feel isolated and decide you're not worth the trouble.


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## Arashi Ravenblade (Jul 1, 2005)

You know im not even going ot bother to justify my opinions ive spent about 20 minutes writing something but you know what? its as simple as this.
What i expect from my self is what i expect from others.
I dont Personally know anyone here, but what i can say from being around the people in my life and my own personal experiences that there is no excuse.
Since your personal experiences are different than mine you obviously feel diffrently, and the only thing we can do is agree to disagree.
Thats all im going to say on the matter of forgetfulness.

However on the issue of this woman, i dont have much experience (im a bit of a coward when it come to dealing with them, id rather fight 100 men at once then ask one out), so aside from thinking she is selfish and not worth your time i cant offer much.


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## Hellefire (Jul 1, 2005)

Dude, it's a 3 day weekend?

Sweeeet!

Um, Ken, I understand to a point. I have always been an extremist, which makes it hard to get along with other people a lot of the time. Up to the time I went to college I didn't really understand other people. Then I stopped stressing so much over trying to figure out what other people were doing and why and just did my own things for my own reasons. For some odd reason, people suddenly got interested in what I was doing. WTF?

So I was watching this cute girl dance once, and she was damn cute, but the dance looked damn stupid. Then I looked at her face and saw how into it she was, that she was doing something that made her feel good, not for how it looked to other people, just because it made her feel good. And the dance didn't look stupid at all to me anymore, just a persons portrayal of their feelings.

So, my advice is, be yourself. Do your thing. Drop the 'their loss' crap, it's a self-defense mechanism but it isn't entirely accurate - it's really 'everyone's loss' - and not being entirely accurate makes it, partly, a lie - and there you are lying to yourself. So don't, if that's not who you are. People who have similar interests and tastes and ideas, whether it's in the straightforward (like carrots or cats) or the more meta (experiencing new things, meeting new people, NOT meeting new people, etc) and have the same basic reactions and understanding, tend to feel more comfortable together.

People are confusing. Women are REALLY confusing. Enjoy being confused, or find the least confusing you can. Try going to a country where you don't know the language. I spent 2 years in Poland, still can't speak the language and don't 'get' many of their customs. Wasn't entirely different from U.S. culture, but still pretty strange. Entirely changed my viewpoint on assuming that certain reactions are necessary or appropriate (getting angry or laughing or crying, etc). It was pretty liberating really, as confusing as it was.

So, here I am, approaching a 3-day weekend (it's really a 3-day weekend???) and babbling about anything related to understanding women (and people in general), or not understanding them. I still have issues with my girlfriend (who is the coolest chick I have ever met) because, sometimes, I still want to do some things 100% my way. But I have learned to pick my battles. If I care about something a lot, I insist on it, if not, I don't. If you want things ALL your way ALL the time, then either find someone EXACTLY like yourself, or expect them to go do things THEIR way sometimes.

Aaron

p.s. I think all that babbling meant, stick to your guns and be who you are, but if you're going to be with someone, you have to Love them for who THEY are too.


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## Hijinks (Jul 1, 2005)

Expecting too much from other people is one of the themes of this thread, I think.

The original poster expected the woman to be honest and forthright when speaking to him, although she didn't know that he expected that.  Many people expect games or, at least, coyness, from the other person when dating.

Now this poster says he expects other people to remember holidays, which is so silly it's laughable.  Who cares whether someone you know remembers it's a holiday weekend or not?  To expect other people to live up to the same standards that you set for yourself works in some scenarios, but not with trivial things, such as the original poster's expectation that his cousin will email him; in reality, it probably wasn't that important to her to email him as she said she would.  Likewise, it's not that important to most people if they happen to not remember that it's a holiday weekend, but if someone expected me to remember and would get very upset with me if I didn't, then that's not someone I'd want to be friends with.

My point is, give people some slack, or you're only going to be disappointed for your entire life.


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## Empress (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM, I have one question for you:

You say you don't want to change the way you are, and you wannt people to accept you the way you are. Fine.

And then you go on and say you want anybody close to you to be exactly like you. Where's the acceptance there?

Break out of your shell. Don't let hurdles be your crutch. Where would we be if eons ago some fish hadn' said, "Sod this. I'm going on land, gills be damned."

Maybe God made you the way you are so you'd have something to conquer, your own mountain to climb and make you a better man? Maybe She wanted you to overcome Asperger's on your own terms? Maybe She intended you to meet someone at therapy, or to fall in love with your psychiatrist? I wouldn't dare to claim I know Her wishes. Do you?

All I know is if a situation is Her doing, then me doing something to rectify it must be Her doing as well, so I'm clear. And if it's not Her doing, then I can rectify it, anyway.


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## reveal (Jul 1, 2005)

Now knowing what Asperger Syndrome is, I looked it up.

http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html

This part stood out:



> Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest.




I think KenM definitely fits this mold. I highly, highly doubt anyone on here is going to change his mind on this topic.

This part is also important:



> Therefore, many behaviors that seem odd or unusual are due to those neurological differences and not the result of intentional rudeness or bad behavior, and most certainly not the result of "improper parenting".


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## Empress (Jul 1, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Now knowing what Asperger Syndrome is, I looked it up.
> 
> http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html
> 
> ...



 Yes, but recognizing this, you either have the chance of improving the situation, i.e. "I know I tend to be overly impatient with people, so I must try to be extra-patient", or you can lean back and say "tough luck, baby, cry on someone else's shoulder."

If you do the second, don't go on wondering why you can't get a relationship to function. You either try to work socially or accept the result.


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## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Aus_Snow said:
			
		

> So why omit the truth (i.e. lie) until it's supposedly more convenient to be honest?





  I don't see not telling someone something about yourself until you know them better is lieing. To me a lie is when someone tells me something I know is not true ("the sky is green"). Or when someone says they will do something and then they don't.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I don't see not telling someone something about yourself until you know them better is lieing. To me a lie is when someone tells me something I know is not true ("the sky is green"). Or when someone says they will do something and then they don't.




Do you see the distinction between telling someone you will do something when you never intended to do it versus telling someone you will do something with every intention of doing it, and then never getting around to it?  I would not call the second situation a lie, I would just call it real life.  Would you be OK if someone told you they _ might _ do something and then do not?  

I'm trying to better understand the line you draw about lying, regardless of whether I agree with it.


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## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Tobold Hornblower said:
			
		

> That sounds like a very interesting story.  Reading between the lines, this is what I've got so far:
> 
> You had the hots for this girl and let her know as much.  She got into bed with you, wanting to be seduced by you.  You then put the lie to the so-hot-for-her impression she'd gotten; you made hardly any effort to seduce her, being put off by her first feeble resistance.
> 
> Poor girl must have been crushed--feeling cheap and rejected.  I can hear her crying to her girlfriend the next day, "Once he saw me in my panties he must have thought my thighs were fat.  He just seemed to get mad, roll over, and ignore me."




  More info about Her. We were friends for a long time before we go to this point. She told me she was assulted before and had issues. I did not want to push. I did try to do stuff while we were laying together, she stopped me. At one point I did get her so worked up she had to leave the room. She came back and she layed aginst me and took my hands and made me keep them in a "safe spot" she was comfortabale with. So I did not want to get arrested for assult, so I let her be, but we were both interested. I don't know why she stopped me.  We did sleep together after that (just sleep, cuddle, not crossing the line) a few times. This was the same Women I mentioned before I found out later was a heavy pot smoker. I detailed this in another thread awhile back. 
    Someone else said I'm using AS as an excuse for how I act. I don't see it like that. I have it, so I have to accept it and learn to work with what I have. Thats how I look at it. I know  some people will say "try to learn to change your behaivor, ect.." . To me this like trying to tell someone that is blind to "just learn to use your eyes." They are both disabalities, other peole need to learn to accept peole with them instead of trying to change them.

  I want to thank everyone for they're thoughts/ advice.  I'm plessantly surpised that most people on here knew what AS was. Usally when I tell people I have AS, they look at me funny and say "whats that?"


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## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Do you see the distinction between telling someone you will do something when you never intended to do it versus telling someone you will do something with every intention of doing it, and then never getting around to it?
> 
> I'm trying to better understand the line you draw about lying, regardless of whether I agree with it.





  To someone with AS, when someone says they are going to do something, they just think that person intends to do it. Weather it was just small talk or whatever. Peolple with AS have trouble telling the difference.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Update on the girl in question. She emailed me and told me that she met someone else and wanted to see how it would go. If she just told me this in the first place, it would have been cool. Why did she feel the need to lie? I am more hurt by people that lie then the fact she might see someone else.




We've been through this back on page 1 Ken. Why do you keep asking the same questions?



			
				Ken said:
			
		

> So when my boss asks me if I got done with that project when I'm not even half done I should say "its all set." When its not? Its ok I guess.




It's fine if you think you will get it done by deadline. Take this kind of thing on a case-by-case-basis



			
				Ken said:
			
		

> I did some thinking, I think people with AS that don't like to socialize are better off then people that always have to do that BS to feel good about themselves. We see that stuff for what it really is and everyone elses gets uptight when we don't play the raindeer games like everyone else does.




The blind have also totally scored, as bright lights will never hurt their eyes. 

The deaf are even luckier, becasue no loud noises will ever scare them.

The lame have it best of all, becasue they get those boss wheelchairs to tool around in. 

Believing that your defects are, in fact, strengths is just _another _ defect Ken. Break that habit.


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## Humanophile (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I don't see not telling someone something about yourself until you know them better is lieing. To me a lie is when someone tells me something I know is not true ("the sky is green"). Or when someone says they will do something and then they don't.




Ahhh.  Unless it's the girl concealing something from you until you're already interested.  (I'd love to test this hypothesis.  Children?  Disease?  Still scoping out the field?  How would you feel if she fessed up to something like that after a month or so?)  So in other words, it has to follow very specific Ken formulas.  Gotcha.

I'm not going to say girls aren't crazy.  I'll even join in the pity party, so long as there's cupcakes and party hats.  But flakiness/forgetfulness is not a female-specific trait.  I'll level with you Ken; you sound like you can get a good deal of slack from people.  Learn that other people deserve some too.

But here is the crux of the issue.  Girls are prone to flakiness - that's part of being a girl.  If you're not up to deal with that, start using lines that are more spot on; "why can't I meet a girl who lives up to my unreasonably high expectations" sounds like a good start.  Otherwise, accept that you'll have to pick from the pool of real people around you.  The vast majority of single people are single for a reason.  Accept that nobody you find will be an absolutely perfect fit for you, that you'll both have to do some adapting to each other and overlooking each other's flaws.  Once you're ready for that, you can try for a fruitful search.  Otherwise, accept that the only women who'll meet your standards live in the realm of fantasy.


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 1, 2005)

!!!!

I understand now! This explains one of my friend's behavior. Asperger's Syndrome! He also has ADHD. But, this fits him perfectly. That would be why he "stalked" (followd) me all the time my freshman year of college and why he is easily obsessed by things. He a great for arguing, though. We can argue for hours about the tiniest thing... uh oh, I hope that doesn't say anything about me.  [Actually I'm probably OCD.]

But, this might help. I'll read up on Asperger's Syndrome and maybe that'll help us gain some understanding of him.


As for offering advice, well, I think most everything has been said. You can either accept it as a handicap and try to fix it or you can embrace it as a part of you. It sounds like you want to embrace it, which is fine if that's what you want, but don't expect any problems to go away like that, I think.


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## Rel (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I know  some people will say "try to learn to change your behaivor, ect.." . To me this like trying to tell someone that is blind to "just learn to use your eyes." They are both disabalities, other peole need to learn to accept peole with them instead of trying to change them.





Here's the thing, Ken.  If you told most blind people that there were medications or treatments that would help them regain some of their eyesight, do you think they would take the help?  Or would they just say, "Quit trying to change me and accept me as I am."?

I think that people who are in a relationship have an obligation to the other person to be the healthiest selves that they reasonably can.  That would imply that they should try and get healthy before entering into the relationship in the first place.

The problem is that nearly all of us who are trying our best to help are not saddled with your problem.  As such, our advice may be useless or nearly so.  If you were able to think and communicate (through medication and therapy) in a way more similar to us then I suspect that our advice would be more helpful.  And it would probably make communication and understanding with any potential ladies in your life far easier too.

Just sayin' is all.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 1, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Here's the thing, Ken.  If you told most blind people that there were medications or treatments that would help them regain some of their eyesight, do you think they would take the help?  Or would they just say, "Quit trying to change me and accept me as I am."?




bullseye.


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 1, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I think that people who are in a relationship have an obligation to the other person to be the healthiest selves that they reasonably can. That would imply that they should try and get healthy before entering into the relationship in the first place.




Repeated for truth. As things currently stand, you could do a lot of hurting to anyone you get in a relationship with. Be careful. People make mistakes. It doesn't mean they're being malicious to you. And if you, in turn, acting accusitional toward them, then you're only being a jerk. If you embrace the AS, you practically have to give up on being in a meaningful relationship unless your partner also has AS.


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## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

My take on the meds: it would change my behavior too much. I think I would be dependent on them. I would not be me anymore. Thats why I won't take them. i'm not embracing the AS, I am accepting who I am and dealing with it.


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## reveal (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> My take on the meds: it would change my behavior too much. I think I would be dependent on them. I would not be me anymore. Thats why I won't take them. i'm not embracing the AS, I am accepting who I am and dealing with it.




Are you happy with who you are now?


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## Rel (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> My take on the meds: it would change my behavior too much. I think I would be dependent on them. I would not be me anymore. Thats why I won't take them.




Have you ever even tried them?  What were the effects if you did?

And don't talk to me about dependency.  I have a condition that was universally fatal less than a hundred years ago (Type 1 Diabetes).  I take 4-5 injections of insulin every day of my life and if I stop then I DIE.  You're goddam right I'm dependant and happy to be too.  I live because I take my medication.

When I was diagnosed with this damned disease when I was 21 years old, it's a good thing that I didn't say, "Well I'm not taking any medication because it would change the way I am."  If I'd done that then nobody here would have any clue who I was and worse (FAR worse), I'd have never looked into the blue eyes of my little girl because I'd be long dead.

You're in a good position to make the decision that you have though, Ken.  You don't have a wife or kids so, like I said earlier, you're under no obligations to make yourself healthy.  But how about you quit asking us for advice since we're in no position to understand your mindset as it is and you're in no mood to change that mindset.  I really just don't see how we can be helpful to you on this topic given those limitations.

Maybe we should just talk about D&D?


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## reveal (Jul 1, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> You're in a good position to make the decision that you have though, Ken.  You don't have a wife or kids so, like I said earlier, you're under no obligations to make yourself healthy.  But how about you quit asking us for advice since we're in no position to understand your mindset as it is and you're in no mood to change that mindset.  I really just don't see how we can be helpful to you on this topic given those limitations.
> 
> Maybe we should just talk about D&D?




It's like arguing with someone who doesn't believe in dinosaurs. Meaning, you COULD, although you start to wonder if there are better things you could be doing with your time.


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## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Are you happy with who you are now?




 Yes, I have a good life, I good place to live, a good job. The only thing missing is a special someone. I do hang out with my firends, but all of them are married and only know other married people. No real chance of meeting someone there. 
 I am happy with how I am, just my relationship issues keep coming up.


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## reveal (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Yes, I have a good life, I good place to live, a good job. The only thing missing is a special someone. I do hang out with my firends, but all of them are married and only know other married people. No real chance of meeting someone there.
> I am happy with how I am, just my relationship issues keep coming up.




That's good. 

I think you've gotten a lot of good advice in this thread from people with experience dealing with the opposite sex. Obviously, it's up to you to decide how to use it. I truly hope you find someone but, honestly, I doubt you ever will.


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## The Shaman (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I have it, so I have to accept it and learn to work with what I have. Thats how I look at it. I know  some people will say "try to learn to change your behaivor, ect.." . To me this like trying to tell someone that is blind to "just learn to use your eyes." They are both disabalities, other people need to learn to accept people with them instead of trying to change them.



One of these things is not like the other...

*KenM*, I have an autistic nephew. He participates in one-on-one counseling as well as age-appropriate group therapy to improve his impulse control and his social skills. He meets with speech therapist to improve his language skills. His family attends classes to help them learn to manage his condition and to deal with related caregiver stress.

To me, this is accepting and learning to work with what he has. He is learning to change his behavior, to overcome his cognitive difficulties, to manage his disability. It's not expecting the world to come to him solely on his terms on the basis of his disability. This is the difference between actively managing autism and passively ignoring its effects on him, his family, and rest of the world.

People with vision impairments adapt through environmental modifications, support groups, and aids such as guide dogs. They can't stop being blind, but they can find work-arounds for many of the limitations that a vision impairment brings. It's unlikely that there will be a cure for autism that will benefit my nephew in his lifetime, but he can "learn to work with what he has."

*KenM*, please forgive me if these questions are too personal or intrusive, and feel free to ignore them if they are  - you've been very forthcoming, so I ask them with that in mind. At what age were you diagnosed with AS? What sorts of treatment did you receive after the diagnosis? Are you familiar with the term "theory of mind deficit?" Do you see a therapist regularly? Are you involved in group therapy or other supervised social skill development opportunities? How do you actively manage your AS?


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## Rel (Jul 1, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> It's like arguing with someone who doesn't believe in dinosaurs.




What's a "dinosaur"?


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## jester47 (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> My take on the meds: it would change my behavior too much. I think I would be dependent on them. I would not be me anymore. Thats why I won't take them. i'm not embracing the AS, I am accepting who I am and dealing with it.




Hey Ken, 

God is the greatest DM ever.  He never presents us with an obstacle that we are incapable of overcoming.  God is not laughing at you, being cruel, or screwing you over.  He just wants you to be the type of person that can overcome your condition.  He is training you for greater things.  That is unless he has called you home, in that case youre ed.  But AS doesn't kill you, so this is just training.  The question is are you going to rise to the challenge He has presented to you.  God made you this way, but have you ever asked him to change you?  Maybe this thread is the answer to that request.  If you haven't asked, give it a try and ask.  If it doesn't work, it won't hurt. If it does work then you are the better for it.  

Aaron.


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## Lucrecio (Jul 1, 2005)

My god.

I didn't expect to see so many precious lines of wise words on a rpg forum  . Thanks to everyone for sharing your wisdom and experiences, I'm getting smarter & wiser after each post .

Yo Ken, about your current situation, I think you should stop acting and talking like the world should be according to your rules. It isn't, period. The world doesn't play to anyone's rules, but most of us try to fit in and better our lot by bending to the chaotic rules of our individualistic society. I understand that you have a condition that makes you somehow different, but from my personnal experience, those who sincerely try to fit in and take their place often have more gratifying and complete lives than those who isolate themselves, blaming the world for its many faults. 

I think you're on th right track; you use personnal services and you are aware of your condition. Your gun is pointing in the right direction, but women are moving targets , the next step to steady your aim should be to try to better understand society and the general populace and accept that you have to bend at least a little to others to gain what you desire. It ain't as hard as you might think it is. Good luck man.


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## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

I have only been diagainosged with it a few years ago when I was 34 or so. I'm 37 now. But I see I have had it all my life. I have not gotten threapy for my AS, but I have been in threopy before. I'm thinking of getting some more. No, I don''t know what "theory of mind deficit?" means.


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## Rel (Jul 1, 2005)

Ken, I actually have a vaguely related question and I'm being totally serious in asking it.  Because you have AS then I know it is important that people spell out their motiviations so let me be clear that I'm genuinely curious and I'm NOT asking this as way of making fun of you in any way.

It was mentioned about you using an escort service from time to time (about which I make no judgement whatsoever).  I don't know squat about escort services but I get the impression that the women they employ tend to be among the better looking of the female species.  With that as a starting point (one that may be wrong) here is my question:

Do you in any way feel that your sexual encounters with these women have raised your expectations for what sort of girl you would consider getting involved with as you seek a mate?


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## KenM (Jul 1, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Do you in any way feel that your sexual encounters with these women have raised your expectations for what sort of girl you would consider getting involved with as you seek a mate?




  Well, I don't consider looks that important. The should be some kind of attraction, sure. But there has to be some kind of chemistry there. I like women that are very passionate and "exciting" in bed so to speak. If I am with a women that is not that into it sexually, its a turn off. 
  That other women I mentioned in this thread ""i'll sleep against you in my panties and youer shirt........."  we had real chemistry, IMO. it was based on respect and friendship and really grew, I could tell she had passion. Too bad she choose drugs.


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## jester47 (Jul 1, 2005)

This whole thread made me wonder if I had a really mild case of AS.  But thats not the case.   I just have really high standards in appearance, combined with a bad short term memory that ultimately stems from a life of not really caring about anything or anyone.  If I really care I can remember anything.  Essentially my parents continued to tell me I was smart and loved, so much so I began to wonder why they kept telling me that.  This caused me to grow into a selfish person with no confidence and impossibly high standards for women.  To the point where I would turn away the okay looking girl and hope for the really hot girl with the physics doctorate.  Don't get me started on the Genetics and comparing the girl to her parents to see if my kids would look weird in their old age.  Man I was messed up.  Might as well have had really mild AS. 

Aaron.


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## The Shaman (Jul 1, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I have only been diagainosged with it a few years ago when I was 34 or so. I'm 37 now. But I see I have had it all my life. I have not gotten threapy for my AS, but I have been in threopy before. I'm thinking of getting some more. No, I don''t know what "theory of mind deficit?" means.



That sounds like a good idea to me.

"Theory of mind deficit" is the challenge for AS sufferers to recognize that other people have feelings and intentions that are different from their own - it means that someone with AS has difficulty recognising that other people think and react differently.

This is one of the things that socialization training can address, by helping to build up a learned 'vocabulary' of emotional responses - it helps those with AS to pick up on social cues that they don't receive intuitively the way someone without the condition does. Because AS is not a 'mental illness' and cannot be treated the same way - however, therapy/counseling is important in conjunction with skill development for helping the AS sufferer to address the personal emotional reactions associated with extending beyond the comfort boundaries.

Has your physician or therapist recommended anything like this to you?

From what you've posted it sounds like you've done a good job of developing an effective functional environment for yourself by creating situations and relationships (friendships) that 'work' with your AS. That's a good first step. Building a relationship with a 'special someone' takes more than that, in my experience - it takes meeting someone else's needs as well as your own. Actively managing your AS - social skill training, therapy - may enable you to reach out, to be a good partner, to expand your comfort zone. I believe you sincerely want to build that kind of relationship - the question is, how hard are you willing to work, to adapt, to achieve it?


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## KenM (Jul 2, 2005)

its been YEARS since I was in threopy. When i was in before, they did not sugest I had AS. I don't think they screwed up. I just think they did not know about it.


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## Rel (Jul 2, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> its been YEARS since I was in threopy. When i was in before, they did not sugest I had AS. I don't think they screwed up. I just think they did not know about it.




If what you're saying is that your AS is not being at all managed by any healtcare professional and you've managed to build friendships and hold a good job then I think you should be very hopeful about the improvements you might make if you were under the care of a competant therapist.


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## Hijinks (Jul 2, 2005)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rel*
> _Here's the thing, Ken. If you told most blind people that there were medications or treatments that would help them regain some of their eyesight, do you think they would take the help? Or would they just say, "Quit trying to change me and accept me as I am."?_
> 
> ...





*cough*

No pun intended.

*cough*


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## The Shaman (Jul 2, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> its been YEARS since I was in threopy. When i was in before, they did not sugest I had AS. I don't think they screwed up. I just think they did not know about it.



I wasn't suggesting that anyone made a mistake. I am suggesting that you look into this further, now.

It sounds like you are high-functioning already - I can't help but think how much some social skill development might be beneficial for you, some training in decoding those subtle non-verbal messages that make up so much of actual communication between two people, especially in a romantic relationship.

In any case, whatever you choose to do, the very best of luck to you.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 2, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Yes, I have a good life, I good place to live, a good job. The only thing missing is a special someone. I do hang out with my firends, but all of them are married and only know other married people. No real chance of meeting someone there.
> I am happy with how I am, just my relationship issues keep coming up.




If you really want that kind of relationship, you really have to come to terms witht he idea that, given your AS, you don't see the world as most people see it. Human beings have built complex social interactions over the course of millennia; they are ingrained upon us, if not by nature, then by nurture. In a way, it's like a game, or a dance - if you want to join in, you have to actually _join in_. You cannot eschew the very processes that bring these relationships about and expect to achieve the results you desire - in other words, you can't be a wallflower and expect your dance card to be filled at the same time. 

You asked earlier why people lie about things, because you don't understand the necessity. Consider: it seems your AS is preventing you from seeing that such things are, indeed, a necessity when it comes to maintaining human relationships. The rest of us have a hard time understanding how someone else wouldn't see that. It's difficult to explain, as it's more of an instinctual and/or emotional thing than anything rational. We're talking about extremely complex interactions here; they cannot be boiled down to bare essentials without destroying much of what makes us human.


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## the Jester (Jul 2, 2005)

Hey Ken!

First I'd like to say that your willingness to speak openly and frankly about all of this is both courageous and refreshing.  Regardless of your Asperger's, you've got stones, man. 

Now, I also want to make sure you don't mistake my post for an attack.  I'm trying to give you honest, constructive criticism and ideas for ways to improve your ability to understand why people lie.  I am trying to help, and I'm not lashing out at you.   That said, here is my perspective on it.

Ken, the 'little white lies' that are bothering you so much are pretty much omnipresent in human society.  I think the problem is that you are looking for an _ideal,_ not for a real woman.  Real people might be completely honest most of the time- I know I try to be- but we almost all still lie (by your standards) once in a while.  A lot of the time it's just to spare someone's feelings.  If a sensitive, vulnerable girl asks if you think she's fat, it's pretty heartless to just say, "Yes."

Another thing that you call a lie is when someone doesn't do what they say they're going to do.  Now, I hate getting stood up or having someone flake out on a commitment, but not all commitments are equal.  A commitment to go to work outweighs the level of commitment involved in some random party I said I wanted to go to three months ago.  

I would say most of us make 'minor commitments' all the time.  I'd define minor commitments as things we say we would like to do and then forget about or prioritize beneath other things.  For another example, let's say I'm supposed to go swimming with a couple of friends, but my stepdad gets hit by a car and is in the hospital.  Forget swimming!  And that's a fairly drastic example, but if you think about it, surely you can see that something like that is a valid reason for breaking a commitment, and once you admit that you have to see that there is a spectrum of commitment.

Anyway, I hope some of this provokes some insight for ya.  Again, I mean no offense and want you to clearly understand that I'm trying to help you.

James


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## Corvidae (Jul 2, 2005)

Ken,

Dude I completely understand the fear of taking drugs cause they might change who you are.  I also completely hate large crowds and small talk.  But we are different on a couple things.  

I have ADHD and Generalized anxiety disorder.  Basically, i have a hard time controlling my attention, and either have a real short or really long attention span.  And second, I take some things way to seriously.  That is me, those are my mental problems.

I started taking meds about 4 years ago because it just got to be too much for me.  I thought that they might change me, but I was willing to go through anything if it might help.  Well, they didn't change me, at least not in my opinion.  

I found it easier to control my attention span and to take things less seriously.  But i still got upset and still had a somewhat hard time focusing.  They just eased it up a lil bit.  Trust me, if you start taking meds for problems, you are not going to be a robot, you will be you, and I guarentee that some of the AS will show throug.  The thing is, it might make it easier to handle.  

As for my small talk thing.  I tend to either not go to parties, or hand out with a small group of people at them.  If someone does try small talk, I typically try to move to a deeper level as fast as possible, you know, pick out something they say like about baseball, and see how they like baseball, why they like it, who they like in it.  It is a way for me to get information on how that person works, something I crave.  

I know not everyone works like me and I am ok with that.  I search for ways to understand how others work, and that has helped my social interactions immensly.  If you want to socialize, my biggest advice would be listen and observe.  You will at the very least learn how some people work.  

Best of luck
John


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## Impeesa (Jul 2, 2005)

I hope I don't drag the discussion down again by fixating on something from several pages back, but I'd just like to throw in another reply to this little bit:



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> God made me this way. If he wants He can change the way I am. I did not ask to be this way, God screwed me by making me this way.




He also gave you free will, everything else is just window dressing. You sound like you're perfectly happy with your life aside from your relationship status. Many people have offered some really good advice on how to change that, and if you can choose to take that advice you'll end up happier for it.

--Impeesa--


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## Von Ether (Jul 2, 2005)

My personal opinion? A lot of people "talk" but don't finish their sentences. Such as "Call me for dinner ..." when holiday weekend is over.

Actually, my first "move" on the phone would have been to contact her, make small talk about the holiday, let both of you get a feel for how you spend these things. (Do you/she spend it with family, friends or just hang out?).

If she said anything but "family," I would have given her an open invite to my July 4th plans. The minute she says "family" I would have eventually ended the conversation with "after the holiday, I'll touch base again for a dinner date" and then enjoyed the weekend.

Unfortantley, it sounds like you were abrupt on the phone when you were postponed, ususally a  big turn off on the first few phone calls. Since you forgot about the holiday, it may seem that your eager. (Which you would think would entice women, but it only turns them off.) I'd pretty much write this chick off already. 

Don't forget that men seem more attractive the older they are while women are the opposite, so there's never a reason to rush or seem eager. That girl who brushed you off when you were a "bad dancer" at 18 is going to see you in a different light when your 32 and she's divorced.


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## Harmon (Jul 2, 2005)

Ken,

You are getting some great suggestions, you might want to write them down, cut out anything that is a little degrading, and cut out the people that do not seem to understand that your disability isn’t something you can just jump over.

You can work around your AS like I work around my reading and writing disabilities, it takes a lot of conscious effort and a lot of good, understanding people around you.

Somewhere in your thread I recall you saying something about this woman being the pot smoker you had a thread about last year.  If it is the same woman, take a breath, step away from her, erase her number from your phone, delete her email address, and make every effort to avoid her.  You are a good person, you need not get involved with someone that uses drugs, and treats you like you have said she treats you.  I realize with AS its hard for you to step back, but you have to grab yourself by the collar and drag yourself from her presence.  You can move on, I know you can.

Take care, and remember not to get frustrated.


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## Dagger75 (Jul 2, 2005)

Well small talk is more than just inane conversation to waste time.  It may seem pointless but it really isn't.  When we meet new people we don't know anything about them.  So we ask them general questions, Hows the weather, did you see who won American Idol, what do you think of Survivor, did you see Star Wars yet? Simple things most people can relate to.  Those little questions help make conversation easier.  The more you talk to people the more you get to know them then the deeper the conversation and relationship can be.

  The little lies told to others are to help spare thier feelings.  Most people don't want to hurt your feelings or anybody elses.  Example

 I have a friend, sometime he just gets on my nerves, he is little obnoxcious and a sarcastic well a-hole sometimes.  It took me 4 months of sitting next to him at work to get to know him (through small talk, found out he is a gamer to)  Well he calls me up and wants to do something.  I don't really want deal with him so I tell him I have plans.  It seems rude and downright mean to say no I don't want deal with your BS tonight so talk to you later.  Which is true but I lied to him to save his feelings.  We do this to not hurt others.

 Hope this helps.  I may just be babbling.   I know nothing about AS or how to deal with it


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 2, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I don't see not telling someone something about yourself until you know them better is lieing. To me a lie is when someone tells me something I know is not true ("the sky is green"). Or when someone says they will do something and then they don't.




See, so you nderstadn the concept of "different levels of lying".

Think you can apply that same level acceptance to the bahviours of someone other than yourself?


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 2, 2005)

Ken, you never answered the second part of my question.



			
				Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Would you be OK if someone told you they _ might _ do something and then do not?




The person did not lie, they qualified their response with the _ possibility _ of doing it.  I think, if I understand AS correctly, you probably would not do this, you would wait until you knew one way or the other before answering.  Is that correct?

Slightly off the topic, but not much, have you read  The Speed of Dark  by Elizabeth Moon?  It is about an autistic person who has the opportunity to take therapy that will cure him of autism, and his stuggle with the idea that it would make him into a different person, that he would stop being himself.  I thought it was a very good read, and that it might be a little insightful for you.


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## Lorgrom (Jul 2, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I just don't like it when people say A and do B.




I agree with you there 100%. But life has taught me (both from observation and experiance) that about 90% of the time it wont happen. B may be very close to A, but hardly ever does B = A. The trick to surviving this agrivation is to just accept how things work and when B does equil A, appreciate the person even more (especialy the ones where B = A often).


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## DarrenGMiller (Jul 2, 2005)

I didn;t really have anything to add to this excellent thread before now, but since I can now contribute, I am going to do so.







> Another thing that you call a lie is when someone doesn't do what they say they're going to do. Now, I hate getting stood up or having someone flake out on a commitment, but not all commitments are equal. A commitment to go to work outweighs the level of commitment involved in some random party I said I wanted to go to three months ago.




I had just this experience.  I made a commitment that was VERY important to me.  Last month, my wife and I joined the church we had been attending.  We had been singing with the choir for several months already, but actually joining this church was a huge deal.  The bishop comes to the church and lays hands on you, etc.  The choir director asked us, well in advance, what would be a good date/time to have a reception/choir party for you to welcome you officially.  We set a date and time.  The reception is scheduled for a Sunday evening.  Now, I am a high school teacher, which generally leaves my Sundays free, but a week before the reception I am informed that our International Baccalaureate program, which I teach in, is having a banquet the following Sunday evening; the same Sunday as our reception, at the same time.  I tried everything I could to get out of this banquet, but in order to preserve my professional status, I ended up having to go (I am 2005 Teacher of the Year at my school and it made the IB coordinator look good to have me on his team).  So, I had to bow out of a reception shceduled just for me and my wife (she ended up going to the reception though... more on this in a moment).  These things are a part of life.

My wife, on the other hand, has always had an intense fear of social situations.  When we met, we didn't actually talk.  She saw me enter a room in college and when I left, she followed me, then caught up and walked beside me.  I was on my way to the cafeteria and when I got there, I sat at my usual crowded noisy table.  She sat a few tables away at an empty table, obviously watching us being loud and obnoxious.  I invited her to the table and practically dragged her over (I was a junior, she was a freshman and it was the first day of the semester).  When I left the cafeteria, she just stuck in my mind for some reason.  I had a friend who was an RA and had a list of the dorm each freshman was assigned to, so we looked her up (I got her name from a professor) and I walked through her dorm looking for her.  I didn't find her room that time and when she saw me walk by in the hall, she didn't call out to me or anything and I didn't see her.  The next time I walked through, I found her room and left a note for her to come to my room to watch a movie.  She and her roommate showed up with a pizza and I don't think we said a dozen words to each other that entire evening.  We knew from the moment we met that we were going to be married.  We were on our way to a lake/park one day and passed this house (we had known each other for a week and probably hadn't spoken more than a score of words to each other, but were already inseperable).  We both looked at the house, then looked at each other and that was it.  We were married less than 2 years later.  We have had 13 happy years together so far and hope for many more.  I am a VERY social person; always the life of any party, telling stories and jokes and am sarcastic and love to debate.  My wife, as I said, is terrified of social interaction.  She has made an effort to get better because she is missing something from her life.  I am her only friend.  Like Ken, this has created a need for close companionship, but from a close friend of her own gender, or even couples that we can be friends with that are not just "my friends" but hers too.

My wife has never been interested in small talk and sees no value to BSing or flattering people.  She will never "kiss up" to anyone to get anything.  She tells people bluntly how she feels.  I don't think she has AS, but she saw herself some of the symptoms.  Anyway, she went to this party, because she desperately wants to overcome her social fears and difficulties.  This has been a 15 year battle since we have known each other, but she is getting better a little bit at a time, in very small increments.  She recognizes her problem, wants to fix it, but it is a long process.

So, it is possible to meet someone without involving yourself in the social scene, but since she left college, my wife has not had the same opportunities to meet people without socializing and this has been very frustrating to her.  I know have several married guys in my D&D group and we went out with two couples (guys from my group and their wives) last week.  It was incredibly stressful for her (whenever she is going to have to socialize, we usually argue beforehand about trivial stuff... she does it to keep her mind off the upcoming social interaction), but she enjoyed it.  AND she went to that reception I mentioned earlier.  ALONE.  With many people she barely knew.  She wants friends badly enough that she is making an effort to get through things that are painful to her in order to accomplish her goal.

On a side note, my wife is a wonderful person who is great with children.  She loves them because they are uncomplicated and don't have the social baggage adults have.  My students think she is great.

My brother, on the other hand, was severely bi-polar, borderline schizophrenic, OCD, you name it.  He HAD to take a wide variety of drugs just to stay semi-functional.  I loved my brother and only got to know him because of the medicines he had to take.  When he was not on them, or they were out of whack, he was violent, self-centered, egocentric and a major a**hole.  I am thankful for the prescription medicines he took (though not for the illegal ones he sometimes took when he was deep in depression and I am militantly against "recreational" use of drugs), because they allowed me to get to know a wonderful person;  the person that he was before his use of illegal drugs triggered a latent chemical imbalance in his brain that caused his mental illness.  He passed away on July 4, 1998 at the age of 37 of heart failure.  Don't write off the power of therapy, or of prescription drugs to help you be the person you can be.  Did they cahnge his personality?  Yes, but they allowed him to bring out the personality traits that were already inside, but couldn't be expressed through his illness.

DM


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## Dinkeldog (Jul 2, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I did some thinking, I think people with AS that don't like to socialize are better off then people that always have to do that BS to feel good about themselves. We see that stuff for what it really is and everyone elses gets uptight when we don't play the raindeer games like everyone else does. I don't need to comform for anyone. If a person does not accept and like me for who I am, its they're lose. Thats all I want, somneone to accept me for who I am.
> I have AS, I don't like to socialize in large groups. Why do most people on here think I will find someone simialar to me that does not like larger social gatherings at a large social gathering? I usaly tell someone I'm interested in that I have AS after we talked for a bit, or on the second date or so. I found out if I do it upfront, it scares them away.




Uh, no.  People with AS and autism still find within themselves the desire to do things with other people (developmentally delayed, and with autism, the magic age seems to be 9 or 10).  The "not liking to socialize" thing doesn't help any in that you still find within yourself the desire to foster friendships and have some kind of close personal relationship.  The challenge is to start understanding what is going on in other people.  If you're serious about wanting to have some kind of "meaningful personal relationship", the proper thing to do is learn about the reindeer games.


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## BOZ (Jul 2, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I love my wife, and she's my soulmate, and all that.  But don't make me go shopping with her.  We just have different takes on what constitutes the "right amount of time" to spend looking for something...   But then, if she were at the bookstore waiting on me to decide, I might be just as frustrating!




oh man, i just had a run-in with this yesterday.  let's just say that after a near-pointless hour in Babies R Us, a trip to Wal-Mart was the last thing i needed.    as for the second part, this is why i always do my shopping alone.


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## BOZ (Jul 2, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> Ah, *Orblivia*, the boards are diminished without you...




you could always look her up on nothingland.


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## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 2, 2005)

...while we're on the subject of Asperger's Syndrome and romance.

I used to know this one girl who had Asperger's Syndrome but managed to successfully flirt with and pick up other girls really really easily.  So I asked her what her secret was, and she said that what she'd done was create a little mental algorithm for how to react in the most beneficial way in any situation such that she could successfully get a date (or what have you).

Not entirely sure how useful this information is, but there you go.


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## BOZ (Jul 2, 2005)

Amy Kou'ai said:
			
		

> Just a note from someone who's dated at least one person confirmed with Asperger's Syndrome, and likely a second unconfirmed -- the biggest problem I've had is feeling as if I'm actually loved and appreciated, and as if the girl I was dating had some actual interest in who I am and my life.  Didn't help much that they had no patience for talking about things like, for e.g., the relationship, either.  I never really felt like I was _relevant_ or _important_ to their lives, or that they were willing to make themselves vulnerable to me, which is generally not a good thing to feel if you're someone's girlfriend.
> 
> I think, KenM, if you're really going to be looking for romance, you're going to have to -- no, not reject who you are, but reach out beyond yourself to touch the other person.  Otherwise, she'll just feel isolated and decide you're not worth the trouble.




now that's some interesting insight from the other side of the equation...


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## BOZ (Jul 2, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> We've been through this back on page 1 Ken. Why do you keep asking the same questions?




here you go:



			
				reveal said:
			
		

> Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest.


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## BOZ (Jul 2, 2005)

hey ken, here's a weird little story.  a few years ago, i was using an online personals service to meet women.  one girl wrote to me and said my profile sounded really nice.  we e-mailed a couple of times, and then she told me she had met a guy and wanted to see where things would go with him.  oh well, i was a little hurt and moved on.

then, after dating another girl and failing to get back together with an ex, the above girl wrote back to me and said that she was glad my profile was still up.  i decided to give her another shot, since my love life was going nowhere fast anyway.

in august, we will be celebrating our 2 year anniversary.    we've been together for over 4 years now.
food for thought...


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## BOZ (Jul 2, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> If a sensitive, vulnerable girl asks if you think she's fat, it's pretty heartless to just say, "Yes."




i'm wondering something based on observing Ken's reactions and assumptions.  ken might be thinking, "well, if she didn't want me to honestly tell her that she is fat, when why did she ask the question?"

most of us guys would realize that it is a loaded question - she wants you to tell her that she doesn't look fat, even if that means you have to lie to her.


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm wondering something based on observing Ken's reactions and assumptions. ken might be thinking, "well, if she didn't want me to honestly tell her that she is fat, when why did she ask the question?"
> 
> most of us guys would realize that it is a loaded question - she wants you to tell her that she doesn't look fat, even if that means you have to lie to her.




There's also a fine line between a patronizing "no" and a lie-to-make-her-feel-better "no" depending on just how obsese the girl is. There's also the time you have to take between the question and the answer, not long enough to make her think you're considering she's fat, but long enough that it looks like you arn't just answering off-handedly. I'm not sure someone with AS could tell the difference between all this, and acting the part might be more difficult. The problem being, we take a lot for granted in these situations.

There's also the worse question, though, "How much do you think I weigh," which I havn't heard often, but it is one of the most terrifying questions a girl can ask. No matter how much I insist I'm bad with guessing weight, they want me to guess. 

Once I got so fed up with a girlfriend constantly telling me she was fat that I just started agreeing with her. Finally she broke up with me and I didn't have to listen to that anymore.


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## KenM (Jul 2, 2005)

http://www.mozartandthewhale.com/

  Watch the trailer. Its based on a real life experence. I really want to see this, if it ever comes out.

  EDIT: Crap, they took the trailer down. They had a trailer for it up.


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## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> most of us guys would realize that it is a loaded question - she wants you to tell her that she doesn't look fat, even if that means you have to lie to her.




...I have to admit that it's more complex than that, and what it really _usually_ means, depending on how insecure the person is, is, "Am I really attractive/desirable/lovable?"  "Fat" is just the beginning domino for not attractive -> not desirable -> not lovable.


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## Rel (Jul 2, 2005)

Amy Kou'ai said:
			
		

> ...I have to admit that it's more complex than that, and what it really _usually_ means, depending on how insecure the person is, is, "Am I really attractive/desirable/lovable?"  "Fat" is just the beginning domino for not attractive -> not desirable -> not lovable.




So if she asks if she looks fat and you say, "I LOVE fat women!  LOVE em'!", is that a valid answer?


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## Berandor (Jul 2, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> So if she asks if she looks fat and you say, "I LOVE fat women!  LOVE em'!", is that a valid answer?



 only if you finish with, "but I like you even if you're thin."


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## the Jester (Jul 3, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> So if she asks if she looks fat and you say, "I LOVE fat women!  LOVE em'!", is that a valid answer?




Isn't that kind of like throwing a phosphorus grenade into a room filled with explosive gas and hoping it's a dud?


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## Rel (Jul 3, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Isn't that kind of like throwing a phosphorus grenade into a room filled with explosive gas and hoping it's a dud?




Well, you gotta admit that whatever her reaction is, things are bound to get exciting for the rest of the evening.


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## the Jester (Jul 3, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Well, you gotta admit that whatever her reaction is, things are bound to get exciting for the rest of the evening.




...I cannot deny that there is a lot to be said for excitement.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 3, 2005)

Whenever a woman asks you a question about the way she looks...

Think of how you would like her to respond if you'd just asked her about your genitals or sexual prowess.

There's lying and then there's saying:

"You look sexy to me, honey."

See, dodged the bullet.


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## the Jester (Jul 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Whenever a woman asks you a question about the way she looks...
> 
> Think of how you would like her to respond if you'd just asked her about your genitals or sexual prowess.
> 
> ...




Ken, how do you feel about this?


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 3, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> http://www.mozartandthewhale.com/
> 
> Watch the trailer. Its based on a real life experence. I really want to see this, if it ever comes out.
> 
> EDIT: Crap, they took the trailer down. They had a trailer for it up.




If you are interested in this, I would definitely recommend the book I mentioned in my eariler post on this page.  It does look interesting.


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## KenM (Jul 3, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Ken, how do you feel about this?




  Well, to be honest, I have never had a SO ask me something like that. So I can't say how I'd react in that situation. I have just told them how pretty, ect. they were. I can see how that can be a hairy situation thou.
  I'm going to look for that book tomorrow. Sounds interesting and I liked other EM stuff.


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## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> "You look sexy to me, honey."




Unless of course that is a lie, and she will of course know that you are lying but choose to trust and believe you, after which everything comes down like a house of cards.  Speaking from personal experience as the girl, here.

It may be important for KenM to distinguish between lies that are trivial and lies that are meaningful, I think.


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## Nifft (Jul 3, 2005)

Why do men send mixed drinks? Same reason: to confuse the enemy.

It's all part of the game.

 -- N


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 3, 2005)

Amy Kou'ai said:
			
		

> Unless of course that is a lie, and she will of course know that you are lying but choose to trust and believe you, after which everything comes down like a house of cards.  Speaking from personal experience as the girl, here.



"You're not a girl! Prove it! Send me naked pictures!"-Private Church (I think) from the Red VS Blue Community Service Message Real Life VS the Internet.

True. Still, as a woman, you should recognise I'm trying to avoid a cratered head wound and respect the fact that your question made me uncomfortable.

Or, realize that I follow the Sir Mixalot school of booty appreciation.



> It may be important for KenM to distinguish between lies that are trivial and lies that are meaningful, I think.



I agree there.

He should realize his audience, thier vulnerability at the moment, and what he is about to say. Never say anything to anyone that you could not handle being aimed at yourself.

If she asks "Does this pair of pants make my butt look big." he should answer it along the lines of "Does this pair of pants make me look like a Ken doll?"

Unless you are REALLY used to each other.

Then you can get away with "Oh yeah, baby, do they ever! Say, is that dressing room occupied?"


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## Turanil (Jul 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> "well, if she didn't want me to honestly tell her that she is fat, when why did she ask the question?" <...> Most of us guys would realize that it is a loaded question - she wants you to tell her that she doesn't look fat, even if that means you have to lie to her.



Okay, I admit I am hijacking this thread but... In reading parts of that thread, I wanted to know what this Asperger syndrome is, so got some info on Internet, and finally reading this post I thought: The Asperger's Syndrome may qualify very well to portray droids and artificial intelligences in a sci-fi game, rather than assume a droid having a personnality like most humans. Thoughts about this? (Hey I don't try to be insulting toward people afflicted by AS in saying this).


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## KenM (Jul 3, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Okay, I admit I am hijacking this thread but... In reading parts of that thread, I wanted to know what this Asperger syndrome is, so got some info on Internet, and finally reading this post I thought: The Asperger's Syndrome may qualify very well to portray droids and artificial intelligences in a sci-fi game, rather than assume a droid having a personnality like most humans. Thoughts about this? (Hey I don't try to be insulting toward people afflicted by AS in saying this).





  I think thats a very narrow view. I do think people with AS want to have some kind of normal, heatlhy relationships. But we are not that good at it becuase we have trouble reading the little social cues.


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## mhacdebhandia (Jul 3, 2005)

Sounds to me like you're not so bad, Ken. I know a guy who possibly has Asperger's Syndrome, and his most famous habit is butting into a conversation which does not involve him . . . with crude sex jokes that are completely nonsensical.


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## Turanil (Jul 3, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I think thats a very narrow view. I do think people with AS want to have some kind of normal, heatlhy relationships. But we are not that good at it becuase we have trouble reading the little social cues.



My comment wasn't aimed at people suffering from AS; I clearly understand that suffering from anything can be rightly felt as an unjust curse. Now, I just thought that what limited info I do read about AS could be used to roleplay droids in a sci-fi game. Now, is it derogatory? I hope not, and my opinion is that in the future, Artificial Intelligence will be the next step of evolution. So don't see it as a sort of insult.


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## KenM (Jul 3, 2005)

I did not think it was an insulting view. Now I see what you mean. You just gave me an idea for a story, thanks.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 3, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I do think people with AS want to have some kind of normal, heatlhy relationships.




And that doesn't make you any different than any of the rest of us who don't have AS...   



> But we are not that good at it becuase we have trouble reading the little social cues.




Which you're not going to pick up without practice, which is only harder with your condition... I may not have AS but I had to struggle to learn to pick up social cues and still screw up alot...(I was shy and introverted)  It happens to the best of people too! Maybe going to therapy might help you learn these cues to help make it easier for you in social gatherings. And perhaps you should be up front with telling prospective girls about AS so they can understand where you're coming from. That's better than muddling stuff up due to miscommunication (which happens on both sides, ya know!   ) and make conversation easier. It's not meant to scare off anyone. If they get scared off, then move on.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 3, 2005)

Look, want some advice about learning about social interaction?

Maybe, maybe not, but you'll get it anyway.

WATCH! That's it. That's how children learn. Watch people socially interact with one another, rent movies (you know the kind, often referred to as "chick flicks") and carefully watch them. Learn when it is appropriate to smile, when it is appropriate to laugh (When she is describing how her father's parachute didn't open and he slammed into the top of the car and was killed is NOT an appropriate time to bust up laughing, trust me) and what facial expressions are commonly used. Practice those expressions in a mirror.

Record your own voice saying certian things and replay it, adjusting your tone, cadence and wording until it sounds appropriate.

It can be done, you just have to put forth a lot of effort, and most people would rather use whatever it is that keeps them from properly interacting with the walking meatsacks as an excuse rather than work on seemlessly fitting into the social setting.

Despite what some people believe, being able to interact on a social level can be a lot of work. If you are serious, I suggest the following:

Language classes. It'lll help you with speaking.
Manners lessons. It'll help you with proper social interactions.
Health classes. It'll show you how other people react as far as emotions to what stimuli.
Group therapy. Watch other people for thier reactions, but do NOT use them to base your own. Instead, watch the counsellour.
Therapy. If you get to the point you can successful fool the counsellor into thinking you're good, you've got that down.
Bood/Poetry Clubs. Find out the proper emotional response and the proper social displays of those responses.

That'll do for a start.


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## Nifft (Jul 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Bood/Poetry Clubs. Find out the proper emotional response and the proper social displays of those responses.




ITYM "Blood/Poetry Clubs".

HTH! -- N


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 3, 2005)

Nifft said:
			
		

> ITYM "Blood/Poetry Clubs".
> 
> HTH! -- N



It's supposed to be Boo*K*/Poetry Clubs"


----------



## nerfherder (Jul 4, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> It's supposed to be Boo*K*/Poetry Clubs"



LOL!  And there was me trying to work out what on earth a Blood/Poetry Club would involve...   

Cheers,
Liam


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## Impeesa (Jul 4, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> LOL!  And there was me trying to work out what on earth a Blood/Poetry Club would involve...
> 
> Cheers,
> Liam




Lots of goth kids meeting at Starbucks and cutting themselves? 

--Impeesa--


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 4, 2005)

Impeesa said:
			
		

> Lots of goth kids meeting at Starbucks and cutting themselves?
> 
> --Impeesa--



That sounds like something that needs a video camera and a laugh track.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 4, 2005)

I looked it up out of curiosity, and here's what the site showed me...







> Asperger's Syndrome, also known as Asperger's Disorder or Autistic Psychopathy, is a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) characterized by severe and sustained impairment in social interaction, development of restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, and activities. These characteristics result in clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.




Hmmm, if this shows up later in life, my advice is to turn off the computer and X-Box and go outside.

I've got a nephew who was autistic. He spent the first 6 years of his life banging his head on the floor and making weird noises.

I read the sites, I looked at it, then I took a look at a few support forums, and I just have HAVE to ask this...

Ken, are you paying attention to ANY of the advice presented in here, or are you just reading and saying: "I can't do that, dont you know I have Asperger's Syndrome?"

I really want to know.


----------



## Banshee16 (Jul 4, 2005)

Well, it depends on if she was honestly sending mixed signals, or simply made a mistake, and forgot it was a long weekend.

I find a good rule of thumb is the "three strikes you're out rule".  One cancellation, as long as it's not her ditching you and just never showing up etc. is acceptable....things happen.  A second time, and I'm getting suspicious, but if she's got good reasons, I'll give a last chance.  If she backs out three times, I'm outta there.

I do think sometimes that it's not always that women send mixed signals.....sure, some do, but I know lots of guys who can't read the signals women send.  It's like a woman has to club them over the head with a mallet to get them to pay attention.

Not saying that's you   In your case, I'd give her another chance.  Wait until after the long weekend....maybe Tue-Wed, and give her a call again.  Don't call her on a Friday, because then it simply looks like you've got nothing to do.

Banshee


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 4, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Ken, are you paying attention to ANY of the advice presented in here, or are you just reading and saying: "I can't do that, dont you know I have Asperger's Syndrome?"
> 
> I really want to know.




Allow me to field this one...

Not a word of it.

In fact, he has not only failed to listen to any of the advice, but has taken it in, and done some thinking...



			
				Kenm said:
			
		

> ...I did some thinking, I think people with AS that don't like to socialize are better off then people that always have to do that BS to feel good about themselves. We see that stuff for what it really is and everyone elses gets uptight when we don't play the raindeer games like everyone else does...




Apparently Aspergers is humanity's next step in evolution.

He has also managed to ask and re-ask the same series of querstions over and over (apparently beleiving they are rhetorical). They aren't

"Why don't people just tell the truth?" has been answered endlessly since early in the first page. 

His endless examples of "lying being bad" that follow show that the message is simply _not _getting through.

And I'm afraid that's basically it: the message _isn't_ going to get through. There are all manner of non-pharmeceutical means for treating Aspergers. 

Ken wants none of them because...



			
				Kenm said:
			
		

> God made me this way. If he wants He can change the way I am. I did not ask to be this way, God screwed me by making me this way. But I will not take drugs or pretend to be fake.




"Pretend to be fake" is apparently what behavioral therapy is called where Ken comes from.

So there's really no interest from him in dealing with his Asperger's Syndrome, just more mewling and whining about the way the world _should be_, rather than the way it _is_.



			
				Kenm said:
			
		

> So its ok for people not to do things some days and do them when the feel like it?






			
				kenm said:
			
		

> So when my boss asks me if I got done with that project when I'm not even half done I should say "its all set." When its not? Its ok I guess.




And on and on.

I think this final quote tells you everything you need to know about this thread...



			
				kenm said:
			
		

> ...Someone else said I'm using AS as an excuse for how I act. I don't see it like that. I have it, so I have to accept it and learn to work with what I have. Thats how I look at it. I know some people will say "try to learn to change your behaivor, ect.." . To me this like trying to tell someone that is blind to "just learn to use your eyes." They are both disabalities, other peole need to learn to accept peole with them instead of trying to change them...




There's the whole story right there.


He knows he has Asperger's Syndrome

He knows he has to "accept it and learn to work with what he has"

He equates it with being blind (without apparently realizing that blind people learn to walk with canes, read braille and any number of other things that mitigate their disability)

And in the final sentence...

*Places the onus on the rest of the world to change to suit him*

He's looking for someone to agree with him that all lying is wrong, women need to stop playing games, and thatthe world needs to change to suit his needs.

I'm not that person. I doubt you are either.


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Ken, are you paying attention to ANY of the advice presented in here, or are you just reading and saying: "I can't do that, dont you know I have Asperger's Syndrome?"
> 
> I really want to know.





  I have not done that, but only recently been diagnosed with AS, I tryed to be aware and work on it. Looking back now I saw how my AS effected my older reltionships. That last realtionship I had with that other women I mentioned here. The one that would say we were just friends but sleep right against me. When we started to become frinds and posssibly more (before the heavy kissing/ sleeping in same bed), I told her flat out that I have trouble reading social cues and body languge. And for Her to be direct with me always. Too bad she was not.  In the future when I meet someone that I'm interested in I will tell then I have AS and they need to be direct, I will do my best to see what you mean, but to please be direct with me.
   TB, thanks for speaking for me. You know me so well. I have been taking all this advice in and thinking about my best action. Do not judge me, now that was an attack, IMO. I will not sink to your level and attack you back.
   Blind people learn to use canes, ect.. I'm learning to work with my AS, in my own way. At the end of the day, the blind person is still blind, and I still have AS. Thats all I'm saying.


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## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> If people don't like me or think I'm weird becuase I don't talk muck. Its they're loss.



This is the classic social fallacy of people who aren't even trying.

If you feel someone has to take the effort to know you in order to be worthwhile, remember this goes both ways.

Asperger's is not a crutch. It's certainly good to be aware that you have it, but don't use it to rationalize your own social problems. Don't use it as an excuse.

You are capable of talking to people and being social. Just because it's _difficult_ for you doesn't mean it's not worth it.


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## Obryn (Jul 4, 2005)

> TB, thanks for speaking for me. You know me so well. I have been taking all this advice in and thinking about my best action. Do not judge me, now that was an attack, IMO. I will not sink to your level and attack you back.




TB didn't speak for you - he quoted your posts and let you speak for yourself.

-O


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## Humanophile (Jul 4, 2005)

Billy:  For all that you're on a hair trigger, Ken seems nowhere near as bad as some relationship threads we've both seen.  A lot of this seems more like venting than asking for some kung-fu secrets that'll have him surrounded by hotties.  So is he on some level being emotional and petulant?  Yes, that's what kvetching on the internet is for.  I'm willing to give him points that he's willing to try more than some people here expect.

Ken:  Would it be nice if girls were honest and less crazy?  Yes.  It'd also be nice if someone randomly handed me millions of dollars, but I know better than to hold my breath on that.  I'm afraid games et. al. are part of the dating game.  There are ways to bypass all of that, but they involve extraordinary stretches of singleness, if not lifelong celibacy.

I will also ask you two things, point-blank.  First, what do you realistically expect of a girl; since you're happy going online to look, what would make you pass a profile by, and what would make you not return a message?  (Or send a "not interested" reply, as the case may be.)  This is our turn to gauge "KenM on the market"; keeping in mind that you have to select from the pool of available women, and that they in turn have to see you as standing out amongst the pool of available men.  It's a game, dude, and you have to learn to punch your weight.

More importantly, though, how long ago was this prior "relationship" with this screwed up girl you knew?  How much do you let it weigh on your mind?  My girl history is rather a comedy of errors, and I'm quite familiar with how one thing hanging on my mind could get in the way of my getting along well with someone new.  If this previous girl keeps getting stuck in your mind, even if she never consciously comes up in conversation, that'll still skew things against you.  I'm afraid I have no advice for clearing your palate - saying "just get over it" never seems to work - but it should still help you accurately appraise what missteps you might be making.


----------



## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

Obryn said:
			
		

> TB didn't speak for you - he quoted your posts and let you speak for yourself.
> 
> -O





  He answered a question that was directed right at me. Therefore trying to answer the question himself, if we were all standing around at a party and someone asked me a question, no one would expect some one else to answer, would they? 
  Humanophile, for the first question, I'm looking for a non smoker/ drug user(I say this in my personal ad), She has to sound at least somewaht interesting in her ad, I won't respnd to someone that just put down "any" for most of what she is looking for. Someone around my own age. I try to give someone at least a chance, but if they do something that appears to be a blow off or that she is not interested, then I call it off fast. 
   As to the other question, that screwed up girl was my last big relationship. It has been like 4 months since I decided to call it off due to her drug use. I know thats soon, I'm trying not to let it effect how I go into other relationships. But I hope to look at the positives of the relationship and use it as a learning expence.


----------



## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I try to give someone at least a chance, but if they do something that appears to be a blow off or that she is not interested, then I call it off fast.



As has been asked above repeatedly, if you're admittedly not good at reading people why do you insist on trusting your instincts on this particular thing?


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

From what I know (and I admit a large part of ignorance in this), blind people don't go around saying "I can't do that, I'm blind." Instead, they use all available facilities and methods to work around being blind and function as a normal part of visual society. Seeing eye dogs, helper monkeys, canes, shades, braille, physical contact, speaking loud, developing habitual actions...all sorts of things that mitigate their blindness and help them to fit into a world that is mostly not blind. They take other people's expectations, and they work to meet them. They don't ask that other people change their expectations.

From KenM's posts, he does seem to want other people to change their behavior, at least if they want to be accepted by him. Rather than accepting people for what they are (meaning, accepting people for the duplicitous, conniving, tricky beings that humans tend to be), he wants them to change. He wants girls to stop playing games with him, honesty to govern his interactions, and people to say what they mean to him, because he says what he means to them. Almost like "I suffer from this, so the people who want to be important to me should, too!"

In wanting this out of the world, he wants a fantasy that is never really going ot be achieved. And in refusing to adapt himself to anything but this fantasy, he shoves out the rest of the world. And when you shove out the rest of the world, becoming self-centered and lonely are common reprocussions (as someone who has definately suffered from shoving out the rest of the world in my past, this I know from experience).

If you continually demand that your expectations be met, you will be continually dissapointed. Being dissapointed often leads to sadness and depression ("why is everyone so bad?") or egotism and self-rightousness ("why isn't anyone better than this?!"). 

Though to a far lesser degree than some of the other posters here, the root ends up being the same, it seems: when you go into self-imposed exile, people today don't generally think you're making a comment on the state of affairs. People today generally think you're being a dick. If you want the world to live up to your expectations, you have to take an active hand in it and settle for small victories. And you can't take an active hand in changing the world by sitting back and making demands of it.


----------



## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

Well, I know I can't change the world. I know most people do lie and are deceptive. (at least in my view) This I why I don't go to social gatherings much, I'm sure they are being fake. When someone is deceptive with me, I then choose not to spend time with them anymore. So its easier for me to stay home and "be a dick", at least they are not lieing to me.


----------



## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> This I why I don't go to social gatherings much, I'm sure they are being fake. When someone is deceptive with me, I then choose not to spend time with them anymore.



This is getting to be a broken record.


----------



## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

The Traveler said:
			
		

> As has been asked above repeatedly, if you're admittedly not good at reading people why do you insist on trusting your instincts on this particular thing?




  Because I have to try. But try in my own way, not under what society says is "OK" to tell lies. I expect people to be totally honest with me, if not, then they are out of my life. Its that simple. At night I sleep good knowing I did not decive anyone and told the truth. At least i'm not being fake with anyone.


----------



## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Because I have to try. But try in my own way, not under what society says is "OK" to tell lies. I expect people to be totally honest with me, if not, then they are out of my life. Its that simple. At night I sleep good knowing I did not decive anyone and told the truth. At least i'm not being fake with anyone.



It strikes me just as something that keeps you within your comfort level.

The trouble being you're over-rationalizing it, and it keeps you from meeting new people and having friends.

Life is risk, Ken. If you're not willing to risk yourself in these situations, why do you expect other people to do it for you? You're going to fall on your ass more often than not, but that's half the fun of it.

You can't insulate yourself from life and then complain about what you're missing out on. You're getting hung up on something that is ultimately very small, and not realizing that it's part and parcel of dealing with people.

Whatever noble narrative you imagine for yourself to rationalize what you're doing is ultimately hurting you. You're trying to tell yourself you're doing the right thing, but that's cold comfort in the long run.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

> I know most people do lie and are deceptive. (at least in my view) This I why I don't go to social gatherings much, I'm sure they are being fake. When someone is deceptive with me, I then choose not to spend time with them anymore. So its easier for me to stay home and "be a dick", at least they are not lieing to me.




Fair enough, but if honesty is important enough to you that you are willing to alienate yourself from most of the world because of it, don't you think that's a little...extreme? Isn't that like the blind man who never leaves his house because he can't see the world anymore?

If you're happy being that judgemental and extreme, by all means, continue...but otherwise, why can't you accept other people for who they are? Why does trivial lying hurt you that much? Why be offended when people are different when you could just accept their difference and live with them?

People crave human contact, in general, but part of being in contact with other humans is accepting their difference. And if you're happy judging most of humanity that cruelly, then you kind of need to learn to be happy without this normal kind of life, because what it takes to live that kind of normal life -- tolerance, acceptance, and adaptation -- you've entirely denied yourself. 

So instead of complaining about how girls play games with you, and what their problem is, it might be more useful to figure out why you have a problem being played with, and what can be done to lighten up and enjoy the game instead of taking every statement seriously. Or, do as you have, and deny yourself tolerance, acceptance, and adaptation...just don't get upset if no one else follows your rules.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> He answered a question that was directed right at me.




The thing is, Teflon Billy is probably being the least fake of anyone here. He's telling you the straight dope, unvarnished. It strikes me as ironic that you don't seem to find his advice pleasant to take.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 4, 2005)

I wrote a big long post full of advice, then figured that there really wasn't anything in it for me, and it's not going to matter what I say, so I figured I'd just put down the following.

If you shut out the world, don't come whining when you don't have the affection you want in life. It's your choice. AS isn't riding on your shoulder like a monkey making you do things. You can overcome it, but you have to want to. Taking the easy road isn't impressive, it's lazy and pathetic.

So, you take some of the excellent advice in here and learn to interact with society and find some happiness, or you can say "Well, I'm not getting what I want/I have AS/It's everyone elses fault" and be miserable.

Your choice. I ain't doing it for you. If you want it bad enough, you'll work for it.


----------



## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> It strikes me as ironic that you don't seem to find his advice pleasant to take.



It's pretty easy to understand. There's no such thing as self-help, you see. After all, how can you help yourself when your thinking is sick?

Ken's thinking is sick. I don't mean this as an insult, either. I also don't think it's because of the Asperger's. He clearly has many issues that are independent of Asperger's Syndrome, and he shouldn't pin all of them on it.

He has constructed a fantasy that allows him to feel okay about being alone. It's something I'm well familiar with because I did it myself when I was younger. It's going to be a significant hurdle because he's going to have to tear it down before he can grow as a person. It's not going to be easy, if it's anything like I went through.

What he has to realize is he's being just as "fake" as anyone. He doesn't have a monopoly on being genuine, and his main difference is that he's lying to himself as much or more than he lies to those around him.

The fantasy has to go. He has to stop his internal narrative. He's wrapped up in his own melodrama, and he's not seeing people as much as he's seeing characters and roles that fit his perception of things. He is assigning them traits which are consistent with what he believes.

One of the most important lessons a person must learn in order to relate to the world is that the world is not what we believe it to be. We have very little control over what happens and that's what is so scary and wonderful about living.

If you open yourself to that, you are open to failure, but you are also open to success.


----------



## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

The Traveler said:
			
		

> Life is risk, Ken. If you're not willing to risk yourself in these situations, why do you expect other people to do it for you? You're going to fall on your ass more often than not, but that's half the fun of it.




  I do take risks, why do you think I have an online personal ad up. But when I find out someone lies to me, no matter how small, I feel like that person is saying "you are not good enough to be told how I really feel or whats really going on, so screw him." So when I find out about the lie, I end it with them. Even though I tell people upfront to be honest with me. 
  I have met a few people though the personal ad, and for whatever reason it does not work out, the "spark" just was not there or whatever. I always say that it was fun meeting them and getting to know them a little, and wish them luck in the future. They were honest with me.
  I never blamed another person for my AS, I blamed God a few posts back. I blame some people for continuing to be deceptive with me even after I tell them upfront I need total honesty.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

> What he has to realize is he's being just as "fake" as anyone. He doesn't have a monopoly on being genuine, and his main difference is that he's lying to himself as much or more than he lies to those around him.
> 
> The fantasy has to go. He has to stop his internal narrative. He's wrapped up in his own melodrama, and he's not seeing people as much as he's seeing characters and roles that fit his perception of things. He is assigning them traits which are consistent with what he believes.
> 
> One of the most important lessons a person must learn in order to relate to the world is that the world is not what we believe it to be. We have very little control over what happens and that's what is so scary and wonderful about living.




I'm going more off of my own personal experience than Ken's, because I know it can't be exactly the same thing, but let me send out a "Word." on this one.

This pretty much exactly mirrors what I had to do to open myself up. First I had to realize that this lonliness wasn't trying to tell me the world was messed up -- it was trying to tell me *I* was messed up. And then, ideally without going on the depression roller-coaster, learn to let go and accept people for the mistakes and problems that they all make.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Because I have to try. But try in my own way, not under what society says is "OK" to tell lies. I expect people to be totally honest with me, if not, then they are out of my life. Its that simple. At night I sleep good knowing I did not decive anyone and told the truth. At least i'm not being fake with anyone.



I TOLD you how to learn to read or at least analyse proper social ettiquette about a dozen posts ago. I know it works, I've seen it work, and it's advised for dealing with certian types of mental disorders that prevent someone from understanding emotions.

If you expect total honesty from everyone, you're not suffering from AS, you a meglomaniacal fool who seems to think they can say: "If you want to be my friend, you'll do XXXX" and get away with it.

And you are being fake. I can tell by reading these posts. You come across as willing to accept help and listen to advice, then you make excuses as to why you can't do as instructed or follow advice.

What did you really want, be honest with Ol' Tim here. You're only human, it's not like I had high expectations. If you wanted sympathy and attention, just say so, you'll get that too. From other people, but you'll get it.

TB has given you excellent advice, I gave you excellent advice on how to learn to analyze human interaction and social settings.

What have you done with it? If you haven't tried any of that, you aren't trying, your putting forth just enough effort in order to feel better about your failure and blame it on others.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

> But when I find out someone lies to me, no matter how small, I feel like that person is saying "you are not good enough to be told how I really feel or whats really going on, so screw him." So when I find out about the lie, I end it with them. Even though I tell people upfront to be honest with me.




Getting hurt that much over any small lie is not something that has to happen. When you feel pain from a lie, you have a choice: you can drop it, accept it, and move on, or you can harp on it, think about it, ponder it, and take it personally.

One of these, for me, leads to me not being unhappy, and that's to not take it that seriously.

You don't HAVE to end it because of a lie. You CHOOSE to. Does that choice make you happier? Or would choosing to perhaps accept that sometimes everyone will decieve make you happier?


----------



## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Getting hurt that much over any small lie is not something that has to happen. When you feel pain from a lie, you have a choice: you can drop it, accept it, and move on, or you can harp on it, think about it, ponder it, and take it personally.
> 
> One of these, for me, leads to me not being unhappy, and that's to not take it that seriously.
> 
> You don't HAVE to end it because of a lie. You CHOOSE to. Does that choice make you happier? Or would choosing to perhaps accept that sometimes everyone will decieve make you happier?




  But if I end it, they won't lie to me and make me feel like a fool for trusting them again. You know the saying: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me."


----------



## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> But if I end it, they won't lie to me and make me feel like a fool for trusting them again. You know the saying: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me."



Everyone will lie to you sooner or later. *Everyone*. Even your mother. The sooner you accept this, the sooner the healing can begin.


----------



## The Shaman (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I do take risks, why do you think I have an online personal ad up.



So far what I've heard you say over and over is that you've created a buffer for yourself in which anyone may enter provided they exist on your terms. You screen your dates through the service, you tell them what's expected of them up front, and if they can't live up to your standards, standards which originate in large part because of the nature of your disability, then you don't want to have anything to do with them.

You say that you're trying to adapt to the world, but it seems that what you've done is create a cocoon for yourself out of your disability so that you can avoid taking steps to engage with world on the world's terms.







			
				KenM said:
			
		

> But when I find out someone lies to me, no matter how small, I feel like that person is saying "you are not good enough to be told how I really feel or whats really going on, so screw him."



With proper skill development you could learn to understand that they are not lying to you, that you're the one who can't decode correctly and take every statement at its literal value - but that's hard to do when you choose to stay within that cocoon of yours.







			
				KenM said:
			
		

> So when I find out about the lie, I end it with them. Even though I tell people upfront to be honest with me.



I've never seen anyone in anything resembling a healthy relationship where one partner dictates the terms to the other.

Take this at its most literal: YOU NEED HELP, and not the kind of help you're going to get from a dating service, or an escort service.


----------



## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

Maybe i should just start to lie to EVERYONE, all the time. When someone calls me on it I'll just shrug and say: "well, its ok in society to lie, so I'm not doing anything wrong. Deal with it."
I did try professnial help. At the first session, after I told the Doc everything I thought I had issues with, my AS, everything, She looked right at me and said "I don't know what I can do to help you." Her EXACT WORDS. So I asked her what I was doing there, paid her my $10.00 copay, and left. I came out of that thinking that I took a risk and tryed to change, and this is what God does to help me? God must not want me to get help then, so I have to accept who I am.


----------



## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Maybe i should just start to lie to EVERYONE, all the time. When someone calls me on it I'll just shrug and say: "well, its ok in society to lie, so I'm not doing anything wrong. Deal with it."



You are making missing the point an Olympic-grade sport in this thread.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

> But if I end it, they won't lie to me and make me feel like a fool for trusting them again. You know the saying: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me."




This is part of the choice. You can be a fool to trust them again, or you can be a jerk for forever penalizing them because they didn't meet your sky-high standards.

Being a fool at least allows you to keep that human contact, and they can prove that they are deeper than the words they say, the mistakes they make, and the lies they tell. Every person is. No one is limited by their errors.

For me, being a jerk meant being alone, and I'd much rather be a fool than alone.

People are fools. People make mistakes. You'll make them, too. Probably already have. You won't ever stop. There will always be reasons to shame on you, no matter what your choice.

The people who are worthy of you trust, at least IMHO, are the people who choose not to hold your mistakes against you. Nobody's perfect, after all. We all need to be accepted for what we do wrong.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 4, 2005)

I guess the only thing I can say anymore is this: if one has a problem with everyone else, it's not everyone else that has the problem. 

Society has certain norms that everyone adheres to if they wish to be a part of society. One cannot refuse to adhere to those norms and expect society to change to suit. It works for billions, so there must be something to it.


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

When I do end it woth someone due to a lie, ect.. I don't tell them, I just don't call them, ect.. They lied to me and are not worth my time/ thoughts anymore. If they think so bad of me to lie to me, then I don't have time to do the right thing with them.


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## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> When I do end it woth someone due to a lie, ect.. I don't tell them, I just don't call them, ect.. They lied to me and are not worth my time/ thoughts anymore. If they think so bad of me to lie to me, then I don't have time to do the right thing with them.



Then you are likely causing hurt disproportionate to the hurt you feel.

How do you feel about that possibility?

You don't exist in a vacuum.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

> Maybe i should just start to lie to EVERYONE, all the time. When someone calls me on it I'll just shrug and say: "well, its ok in society to lie, so I'm not doing anything wrong. Deal with it."




When someone lies, they have a motive that isn't related to you at all, 95% of the time. People don't lie to hurt others, they lie to protect themselves, because people are basically all scared of each other.

Honesty is good, but so is charity. I don't see very many people demanding that their friends pay 10% of their gross income to the poor or they won't be friends with them because they're bad people.....


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

The Traveler said:
			
		

> Then you are likely causing hurt disproportionate to the hurt you feel.
> 
> How do you feel about that possibility?
> 
> You don't exist in a vacuum.




  They hurt me, I hurt them back. We are even. 

   BTW, nice sig, I love that show.


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## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> They hurt me, I hurt them back. We are even.



Read what I'm saying. I'm saying you're not even by a longshot. You are hurting them worse than they are hurting you.

Now, perhaps they're better equipped for being hurt that way. Perhaps they're not.

Are you willing to live with the consequences if they're not?


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

The Traveler said:
			
		

> Read what I'm saying. I'm saying you're not even by a longshot. You are hurting them worse than they are hurting you.
> 
> Now, perhaps they're better equipped for being hurt that way. Perhaps they're not.
> 
> Are you willing to live with the consequences if they're not?




  They did'nt seem to concerened about the consequences when they made the decsion to lie to me. Like I said, we are even.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

> When I do end it woth someone due to a lie, ect.. I don't tell them, I just don't call them, ect.. They lied to me and are not worth my time/ thoughts anymore. If they think so bad of me to lie to me, then I don't have time to do the right thing with them.




This is itself deceptive and dishonest. It's not lying, but it's conniving, manipulative, and ultimately really mean. You don't tell them how you feel, you just let them come to their own conclusions? Don't even have the guts to face them? That's pretty cowardly...not to mention childish, playground-style crap. The silent treatment? What are we, 8? Be an adult and confront the problem!

Newsflash: If someone lies to you once, that doesn't mean they think badly of you. If they think badly of you, why would they talk to you in the first place?



> They did'nt seem to concerened about the consequences when they made the decsion to lie to me. Like I said, we are even.




And we're back to you holding everyone to an impossibly high standard. *PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES*. And not forgiving them is saying that you're better then them. You make mistakes, too, right?


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## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> They did'nt seem to concerened about the consequences when they made the decsion to lie to me. Like I said, we are even.



It's not a zero-sum proposition, Ken.

If you continue like this, it's only going to get worse. I just hope you wise up before you've burned too many bridges to come back.


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> This is itself deceptive and dishonest.




  They were deceptive and dishonest with me, like I said, we are even.


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

The Traveler said:
			
		

> It's not a zero-sum proposition, Ken.
> 
> If you continue like this, it's only going to get worse. I just hope you wise up before you've burned too many bridges to come back.




  I have not had any regret yet, I don't expect to.


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## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> They were deceptive and dishonest with me, like I said, we are even.



Nobody is ever going to meet your standards. You are unwilling to compromise, and you don't care who you hurt in the process.

Now tell me, if you met someone like you, and were on the outside looking in, how would you feel about that person?







			
				KenM said:
			
		

> I have not had any regret yet, I don't expect to.



I don't know what else to say, then.

Enjoy being alone with your high-minded principles.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

> They were deceptive and dishonest with me, like I said, we are even.




Are we eight? Do we need an eye for an eye? Or are you just so self-centered and coldhearted that you think that causing others pain is the only way to alleviate your own? 

I don't think you really are, but that's the impression a lot of people will get when you stop talking to them because of a single lie.

There are consequences for a broach of trust, but if for you those consequences are always "screw you, you hurt me, you don't deserve any kindness!" like some petulant playground kid, is it really that surprising that human beings, who make mistakes, who try to do good but often fail, who need forgiveness and room to breathe, aren't around as much as maybe you'd like them to be? If because they can't pass your little tests, you flunk them out of your life?


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> And we're back to you holding everyone to an impossibly high standard. *PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES*. And not forgiving them is saying that you're better then them. You make mistakes, too, right?





  Yes I have made mistakes. Making the mistake of trusting them in the first place and having my heart torn out. Or being made a fool of because of being lied to. I make sure that I don't make that mistake with that person again.
   When I have screwed up with my step dad, I would tell him I was sorry, he would tell me "sorry does not make it ok!" So I have that in my head. I'm trying to work on that as well.


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## Hijinks (Jul 4, 2005)

I know it can be really easy to get angry when someone asks for help and doesn't seem to acecpt your help.

It's like the woman at your workplace who's overweight and moans about it all the time; when you suggest "Why not go down to the free fitness center and work out?" she responds with "Oh, I never have the time."  To which you say, "You can work out over your lunch break."  She says, "Oh, then I'd have to take a shower."  You say, "I do it all the time, and I just work out for 30 minutes, shower, and am back at work on time."  Final response:  "Well, my hair takes FOREVER to dry..." at which you throw up your hands and avoid her from then on.

The moral here is that, some people just want to complain.  They may ASK for advice/help/etc, but when they do the above and just give excuse after excuse, you just have to accept that they don't really want help, and move on.

Now, if someone had said to the woman above, "Here, take this pill, you will instantly lose 30 pounds," then she would have been perfectly happy to listen to the advice.  However, any common sense advice she'd be given would not be what she wanted to hear.  Ditto with KenM.  He asked for advice, but what he wanted to hear was "Everyone else is being very mean to you.  The woman on the internet is a big <bad word>.  You are perfect and it's very horrible that you have this affliction, how ever do you handle it?"  But we took him at his word and gave him honest, helpful advice.  It wasn't what he wanted to hear.  So there's really no point in pursuing it, IMHO.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> They did'nt seem to concerened about the consequences when they made the decsion to lie to me. Like I said, we are even.



Oh. My. ing. God.

So she lied to you.

Grow up and get over it. Who in the hell are you to think that they can't even tell you that they like the shirt when they hate it? Who the hell are you to judge whether someone lied to you saying they'd meet you at the bar, when they had found out they had to take thier aunt to the mall?

Honestly, you're coming across less as someone with Asperger's and more like a spoiled child who wants everyone to be perfect and exactly how they want.

What are you bringing to the table? In the interest of fair trade, if they have to be careful not to even accidently omit a section of the truth or be WRONG when dealing with you, what are you bringing to the table in the relationship?

The only woman who will NEVER lie to you is available here for only a couple hundred dollars. That's about it. People lie whenever it is to thier advantage and they don't view the consequences. The consequences of a high-maintenance drama queen no longer associating with me because I told him that I like his new girlfriend when I hate her so bad it makes my teeth hurt? None for me. "Yeah, I like her."

We've all got problems, everyone has a little bit here and there. Hell, *I* have problems, and most of the time I don't lie because I don't feel the other person is worth the effort and I don't really care about them. Yeah, that's a problem.

The "I'm better than you" and "It's everyone else's, even God's fault..." and other excuses have a zero maximum effective range, and your wriggling to come up with reasons why you can't bother to learn about basic human interaction, even after you've been told how to go about this, doesn't strike me as a symptom of Asperger's, but rather the outlook of a spoiled child who wants everything given to them.

Do your own work. You've been handed the tools, given the istructions.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Yes I have made mistakes. Making the mistake of trusting them in the first place and having my heart torn out. Or being made a fool of because of being lied to. I make sure that I don't make that mistake with that person again.



HEY! IT'S JESUS!

Can you cure my jaw or shoulder? What did you mean by turn the other cheek?

That's about how you're coming across there.


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## The Shaman (Jul 4, 2005)

*KenM*, you have an impaired function. You're brain doesn't allow you to interpret communications signals normally. As a result, you miss important parts of the message.

You call it lying. You're wrong. You have a broken brain. And you need help.


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## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> HEY! IT'S JESUS!
> 
> Can you cure my jaw or shoulder? What did you mean by turn the other cheek?
> 
> That's about how you're coming across there.



Now, now, let's be fair to the guy...

...

...

Jesus _forgave_ sinners.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

I dunno, Hijinks, he seems to still be here...."There is light in him yet, I can sense it!"   



> Yes I have made mistakes. Making the mistake of trusting them in the first place and having my heart torn out. Or being made a fool of because of being lied to. I make sure that I don't make that mistake with that person again.




These aren't  mistakes, they're just common human experiences. People's trust is violated, people's hearts are torn out, people are made fools of, constantly. The mistake is this: to let it end at that, and to never allow the person to show that they are more than a violater, more than a heart-ripper, and more than a fool. What's missing is dimension. Acceptance. The ability for people to be wrong once in a while. What's missing is forgiveness.



> When I have screwed up with my step dad, I would tell him I was sorry, he would tell me "sorry does not make it ok!" So I have that in my head. I'm trying to work on that as well.




Sorry doesn't make it OK. But nothing makes it OK. The damage is done, but damage will ALWAYS be done. Damage is a part of life. Not being OK is a part of life. Things are wrong and screwed up and everybody tries and fails. I don't know anyone who is happy in life. Suffering is the human condition, yo. It's what makes us struggle to be better. To think you have won the struggle (say, by excluding liars from your life because lying causes suffering) is ultimately to fail at it, I think. Because you don't try to be better anymore. You already think you're good.

Sorry doesn't make it OK. But sorry can stop it from happening again....if there is acceptance of the flaws.


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Sorry doesn't make it OK. But sorry can stop it from happening again....if there is acceptance of the flaws.




  Thats it, when my stepdad said that, it felt like he was not accepting the flaws. I started to say that to people that said sorry to me.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

> Thats it, when my stepdad said that, it felt like he was not accepting the flaws. I started to say that to people that said sorry to me.




My own dad, a Marine, said that to me quite often.

And then I asked him what, in this great big world of ours, is ever, really, OK?

It's part of the beauty and pain of life, man. OK is a pipe dream. It's worth working toward, but working toward it invovles working together. Because, AFAICT, no one is OK alone.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Thats it, when my stepdad said that, it felt like he was not accepting the flaws. I started to say that to people that said sorry to me.



Yeah. He wanted to you to actually FIX the damn problem. Sorry doesn't help when the house is burning down. Sorry doesn't help when you've poked your sister's eye out. Saying sorry doesn't bring the dog back to life. Sorry doesn't take out the garbage. Sorry doesn't.....

Something you are still obviously unwilling to do.

I heard that too, and guess what, it's true. Sorry doesn't do jack. If you're sorry, show me.

And nice job playing the stepdad card.


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

So the one time my stepdad told me he was sorry, I told him it was not OK and kept reminding of the mistake like he did with me. Payback is a bitch.


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## TiQuinn (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> They hurt me, I hurt them back. We are even.




You're never going to have a long lasting relationship.  Put that fact in your brainpan, turn it onto process/puree, and let it sit in there for a week until it finally sinks in.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

> If you're sorry, show me.




Well, when I was told "Sorry Doesn't Fix Anything!" as a kid, I would sometimes respond with "What would fix it?" To which my dad would answer "I don't know." or "Nothing can." 

Whenever you can fix a problem, you should, of course. Put your money where your mouth is and all that...

But in something like a violation of trust, there isn't any real easy way to fix it, especially if you never hear from the person you lied to again. You can't take it back. You can just work to show that you're more than that. The onus is on the violated person to accept it or deny it.



> So the one time my stepdad told me he was sorry, I told him it was not OK and kept reminding of the mistake like he did with me. Payback is a bitch.




Becuase I'm not sure it can be said enough, know that a pro psychologist can probably help you more than an internet message board can, and you don't even need to be nutty to go to one, just generally unhappy and looking for a way to change. They're there to help, after all. And they'd probably be able to draw some good ideas from this stepdad stuff.

For my own milage, this seems to be going right in tandem with you not wanting to just drop it. You need to forgive him for saying that to you, too.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> So the one time my stepdad told me he was sorry, I told him it was not OK and kept reminding of the mistake like he did with me. Payback is a bitch.



Congradulations, you are now your stepdad.

Wouldn't he be proud?


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## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Payback is a bitch.



Now, while I told myself I was going to stay out of this thread, I do feel this needs addressing. This is the core of your problem, and it's not Asperger's Syndrome. Your twisted sence of "getting even" is going to do you more harm than good. I don't know how I can put it in any simpler terms. This is what nearly all your other issues hang from, and it cannot be explained away as a medical disorder.


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Congradulations, you are now your stepdad.
> 
> Wouldn't he be proud?




  I know I turned into him. I'm not at all proud of it either.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I know I turned into him. I'm not at all proud of it either.



But you won't change it?

If you aren't proud of it, THEN CHANGE!

Teflon Billy told you how to.

I showed you the recommended way for those afflicted with injury induced ASD to learn to interact properly with society.

Scores of other people here have given you advice and instruction.

Quit whining and do. Stop making excuses.

I'd give you more pointed advice, but like the banner says: You can't handle the truth.

Why do I believe that? I've read this thread, and you're only human.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

I did post about pro help up there, right? 

If you're not proud of it, it sounds to me like you definately have the werewithal to fight it back. Because while we are a product of our environment, we're not JUST that. You see this as a problem. That means you have the power to make a difference and overcome it.

You have the ability. A pro psychologist can be a big help in using it. EN World's Tuff Love seems to already have helped the road start, perhaps....?


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## KenM (Jul 4, 2005)

Ok, I'll try and do some of those things that TB and others have said. But I could just be saying so and telling a little lie to make all you people happy. But thats OK becuse thats how soicety works.


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## The Traveler (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll try and do some of those things that TB and others have said. But I could just be saying so and telling a little lie to make all you people happy. But thats OK becuse thats how soicety works.



While you're at it, work on that passive-aggressive streak of yours, dude.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll try and do some of those things that TB and others have said. But I could just be saying so and telling a little lie to make all you people happy. But thats OK becuse thats how soicety works.



Yup, that's exactly how society, and the internet work. People lie all the time, and the more powerful they are, the bigger the lies.

Get used it, it ain't gonna change because you don't like it.

Besides, not being lied to may end up hurting your ego in ways you never thought.

"It was the best I've ever had." "I came." "It happens to a lot of guys and it doesn't matter to me." and "I think it's cute."-Little white lies

Nicely played on the sulking card and trying to twist words card.


----------



## Crothian (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll try and do some of those things that TB and others have said. But I could just be saying so and telling a little lie to make all you people happy. But thats OK becuse thats how soicety works.




And of course that's not true, but whatever.....


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2005)

> Yup, that's exactly how society, and the internet work. People lie all the time, and the more powerful they are, the bigger the lies.




_psssst....I'm not really a midget....dont' tell anyone!_

If you're lying, KenM, you're doing it to protect yourself and yourself alone. I'm not really offended, but I do wonder what you're trying to protect yourself from....

And if you're not lying, well, good.


----------



## Mercule (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> So its easier for me to stay home and "be a dick", at least they are not lieing to me.




And.... That's your choice.  If it's the one you make, well, you know what you're going to get.  Feel free to change at any point.

To be honest, it would have been easier for me to make the same choice.  Or just to keep on gaming all weekend, every weekend.  But, I didn't because I wanted to find someone.  And I did.

Guess what?  No women are going to climb up on your gaming table and seduce you.  None will walk between you and the computer -- or TV.  If you keep doing what you've been doing, you ain't ever going to find that woman you're after.  You've already looked there.  So, change something.  People do it all the time.  It can be a real bitch, but it's possible.

You've gotten a lot of good advice in this thread but pretty much everything has been met with some excuse, none of which are really insurmountable.  If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.

If you want the A-number-one best thing I can think of to say to you, here it is: Go for one week doing something for someone else that you normally wouldn't do.  It doesn't have to be a hawt chick.  Your boss, mom, neighbor, or postman counts.  Start making a habit of doing something for someone else for no other reason than to do something for someone else.  And don't make a big deal of it -- at all.  Don't mention it to another human being.  Don't look for praise.  Be prepared for them to be a bonehead for you the next minute.  If you make a habit of this, it will do you wonders.


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## PowerWordDumb (Jul 4, 2005)

Someone's gonna come along and yell at me for not having limitless empathy for all, but what empathy I once had evaporated around page 5 and six.

KenM ain't ever gonna breed at this point, and I honestly can't see that as a problem.  If he can get over himself and accept some helpful criticism and a little self-analysis, maybe he'll one day be fit to rejoin the human race and our endless pack of "lies".

I'm not holding my breath.  Many other people have overcome Asperger's to lead healthy, happy, and productive lives.  KenM seems genuinely and impressively uninterested in doing so.


----------



## nerfherder (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll try and do some of those things that TB and others have said. But I could just be saying so and telling a little lie to make all you people happy. But thats OK becuse thats how soicety works.



You just don't get it.  The rest of the world does not benefit or lose based on what you do.  *You* benefit or lose based on what you do.  None of the people that have offered you advice have anything to gain beyond a warm fuzzy feeling for helping out a fellow human being.  If you ignore that advice and do nothing, then some of us will shake our heads and get on with our lives - TB will get back to spending quality time with his wife and kids, and I'll be taking out the cute girl I met last week for dinner on Wednesday night.  Feel free to take the advice or ignore it - it doesn't make any difference to *my* happiness.

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll try and do some of those things that TB and others have said.



There! You lied! Was that so hard?


----------



## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> KenM ain't ever gonna breed at this point, and I honestly can't see that as a problem.





  I don't see it as a problem either. I don't want kids.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 5, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> You just don't get it.  The rest of the world does not benefit or lose based on what you do.  *You* benefit or lose based on what you do.  None of the people that have offered you advice have anything to gain beyond a warm fuzzy feeling for helping out a fellow human being.  If you ignore that advice and do nothing, then some of us will shake our heads and get on with our lives - TB will get back to spending quality time with his wife and kids, and I'll be taking out the cute girl I met last week for dinner on Wednesday night.  Feel free to take the advice or ignore it - it doesn't make any difference to *my* happiness.
> 
> Cheers,
> Liam



All I have to add to that and what others have said is...

GOD VS YOU


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## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

As I see it, if I take the advice and comform, I become like the people in society I don't like. But if I don't, i'm still labeled a freak by most people. And you wonder why people like me don't like to go out and socialize?


----------



## Greylock (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> There you go, judging a person with a disablity and calling us all weasels. You have now idea of the hurt or pain I go though day to day. Don't judge me.




Whoa. I was planning on reading this thread all the way through, but this brought me to a complete halt. Disability? Hurt? Pain? For social maladroitness? Dude. We need to talk sometime.

That is not a flipping disability, and there are things that hurt a hell of a lot more than feelings. Try learning to walk again at age 39. I'm not even going to bother with the rest of this thread...


----------



## The_lurkeR (Jul 5, 2005)

Thought it was about time for this quote...



> Alright Ken, now see this? This is a four-way road, OK? And dead in the center is a crisp, new, hundred dollar bill. Now, at the end of each of these streets are four people, OK? Are you following?
> 
> Yeah
> 
> ...






(From Chasing Amy, edited of course to fit the subject at hand, and shield Grandmas eyes    )


----------



## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> Whoa. I was planning on reading this thread all the way through, but this brought me to a complete halt. Disability? Hurt? Pain? For social maladroitness? Dude. We need to talk sometime.
> 
> That is not a flipping disability, and there are things that hurt a hell of a lot more than feelings. Try learning to walk again at age 39. I'm not even going to bother with the rest of this thread...




  I had to learn to walk again at 23. I was hit by a car. AS is on the Autism spectrm. It is a known medical disability. So I consider myself a social retard, since I'm labeled with the retards.


----------



## Obryn (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll try and do some of those things that TB and others have said. But I could just be saying so and telling a little lie to make all you people happy. But thats OK becuse thats how soicety works.



AS or not, you play the martyr like a pro!

Look, Ken - when you started this thread you asked "Why do women send mixed signals?"  It's the friggin subject line.  Many people have given you reasons and answers, and it's even become clear that some of these "mixed signals" are your psychological condition causing you to misinterpret words and actions.

But even now - when your question has been answered (repeatedly) you're choosing to deny the world, claim everyone else's life is somehow less by not accepting you for who you are, and sulking.

If you don't want the advice - if you're happy to be who you are, alone and feeling like everyone in the world constantly betrays you by not following through and by not being Kant-like in their honesty, then fine.  Just say so.  But don't post threads like this if you aren't prepared to have your assumptions, worldview, and lifestyle challenged.

-O


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I had to learn to walk again at 23. I was hit by a car. AS is on the Autism spectrm. It is a known medical disability. So I consider myself a social retard, since I'm labeled with the retards.



AWWWW!!! Poor baby!

I was shot to dog-crap, 6 penetrations from shrapnel and bullets. Guess what, I had to learn to walk too. And feed myself. And read. And talk. And write. And to compensate for no longer having stereoscopic vision.

So I feel no damn sympathy.

Try another card, mine trumps it.

Now you're doing the "Everyone says I'm a retard, so I must be."

No, what you are acting like now, in this thread, is a spoiled baby who isn't getting what they want, so they are throwing a fit.

Yeah, you've got to conform to society at least on some level, or be labeled a freak. ALL OF US have to do that, not just you. God did not get up in the morning and pick on you. You're acting like the same whiners who were in physical therapy with me, the ones who chose to first whine that they couldn't do it, that it hurt, then whined when I was walking and they were still damn near immobile. You either confrom, or be an outsider. So you don't like society, but here you are snivelling that you aren't part of it, then claiming your superior to everyone in the society you hate. Well, which is it, are you happy being an outsider, or do you want to be able to have normal relationships with someone else who isn't a bigger freak than you?

Yeah, it's a bonifide disability, your Assperger's Syndrome, but guess what, THOUSANDS OF OTHER PEOPLE HAVE IT! and they learn to get along, how to conform, how to fit in, how to run stealth, in today's society. It doesn't make you God's Special Little Snowflake and automatically make you right. It makes you *SLIGHTLY* handicapped and even then, only in certian situations. You aren't wearing a brain bucket or screaming out profanity. You're just a social lead brick, with no grace or style. Waaaah. I see those all the time when I go to the mall, and I see them at the club dressed like it's 1975 and doing the robot.

It's BORDERLINE autism. Hell, under the original classification of autism, you'd get smacked across the back of the head, told you were fine, and sent home. You ain't got it bad, since you're able to understand the rules of an internet board.

Make up your mind, do you want assitance, or do you want to complain and make excuses?


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> As I see it, if I take the advice and comform, I become like the people in society I don't like. But if I don't, i'm still labeled a freak by most people. And you wonder why people like me don't like to go out and socialize?



Because it's easier to whine and expect everyone to make excuses for you than to work on the problem?

I read this thread about 3 times, often rereading the last posts to make sure I have the gist of what is going on, and I have to say, the excuses, martyr positionings, and attempts to generate sympathy are having the opposite, at least for me.

I don't see someone who wants to fight and overcome a disability, I see someone who wants to wallow in it and get sympathy, and is now angry/frustrated they aren't getting it.

Why do women lie? Because they have what you want.


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## Morpheus (Jul 5, 2005)

In reading the whole of this thread, I am reminded of the quote from_Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_, "I (He) chose poorly."


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## The Traveler (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> AS is on the Autism spectrm. It is a known medical disability. So I consider myself a social retard, since I'm labeled with the retards.



Far less of what you have described in this thread is Asperger's than you think, and people who suffer from Asperger's can integrate into society without losing that special spark of what makes them unique.

I am someone who has been very stubborn towards suggestions that I be medicated, and to this day I am still not medicated. I recognize that different things work for different people, and I have acknowledged that my not wanting to be medicated is a personal issue rather than any real danger.

Still, I have seen people who flourish under medication, and they take the exact opposite opinion. They aren't different people because of medication. Rather, medication allows them to express who they were all along.


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## devilbat (Jul 5, 2005)

> And you wonder why people like me don't like to go out and socialize?




After reading your posts in this thread, I don't wonder why people like you refuse to leave the house.  

You wallow in your misery with great joy.  You blame God, because he's the only one who won't argue with you.  Your expectations of society are unrealistic and idealistic.  You refuse to recognize the advice of others, even when asking for answers (see page 1, post 1) and when unable to discuss your thoughts in a clear and precise manner, you revert to sarcasm.

I'm quite happy people like that tend to stay in their comfort zone, and out of my world.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 5, 2005)

> As I see it, if I take the advice and comform, I become like the people in society I don't like. But if I don't, i'm still labeled a freak by most people. And you wonder why people like me don't like to go out and socialize?




I'm not telling you to conform, at least. I'm telling you to let go of your anger and your hurt and let people make mistakes. That's not changing anything about you other than your insistance that everyone jump through your hoops to be close to you, because for most of the world, for most of humanity, it's not going to be worth it, it's going to be impossible, and that will leave you alone. 

People change, man. At least if they have any sort of healthy, living, breathing existence, they change, because the world isn't a one-size-fits-all kind of place. 

Another newsflash: You are like the people in society that you don't like. You are exactly them. You are a human being with wants, needs, quirks, motives, and mistakes all your own. You are judgemental, narrowminded, unforgiving, petty, and egotistical about it. Just like the rest of the world.

The only thing that makes you different as far as I can tell is that you can't stomach the thought of letting someone "get away with" doing something to you that you don't like. And that's pretty childish. 

You seem to know that what's going on right now is not a place that you're happy staying in, and that's good. So take the next step. Ease up.



> I'm quite happy people like that tend to stay in their comfort zone, and out of my world.




I'm not! Comfort zones EXIST to be violated, challenged, and mistreated. No one should be comfortable for long, 'cuz the world's changing around you!


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## Aethelstan (Jul 5, 2005)

My son has high functioning autism so initially I felt some sympathy toward Ken.  But as this thread progressed and Ken's post grew increasing egoistically and self-deluded, sympathy turned to something boardering on rage.  Every day my son struggles to engage in basic human inteaction.  He often can not bring himself to talk to others and when he does his comments are often odd or inappropreate.  Yet, despite his disability (which is far more profound that Ken's), he makes an real effort to connect with people.   He greets friends, asks people about their favorite things and makes a point of learning the birthday of everyone he meets (he has savant abilities with names and dates and can tell you what day your birthday falls on up to 15 years in the future or past).  However, Ken, who has intellectual abilities far beyond my son's, can not be bothered with any of these simple courtesies because 99.9% of humanity (or every living person but him) are, in his unshakable opinion, all lying fakes.  I would give my left eye to give my son even half the communitive skill Ken has.  My son will never have a girlfriend, never marry.  But Ken has the gaul to whine about how his AS makes it hard for him to get a sex partner he doesn't have to pay for.  He has the mental abilities and basic, if limited, social skills to successfully interact with women.  He understands how AS hinders his sex buddy search but willfully chooses to make not the slightest effort to change the way he relates with others (i.e. the lying fakes).   Ken raises the shield of AS in a pathetic and self-serving attempt to fend off the pointed barbs he so richly deserves.  My son, who struggles to pull himself form his own inner world, shows more concern for and interest in his fellow humans than bitter, self-absorbed Ken, the AS martyr.
How dare he use autism to gain sympathy for a lonely and pathetic existence which is of his own making!


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## Mercule (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> As I see it, if I take the advice and comform, I become like the people in society I don't like.




Actually, you're missing the point 100%.  I don't give a rat's butt if you conform.  You sounded like you wanted advice on how to get a shot at a decent relationship with a decent woman.  Such advice was given.

Cold hard truth, since you say it's what you value:  You are a mass of electrons to pretty much everyone here.  Whether or not you ever get a date again is entirely academic to me.  However, I have some ability to pretend and empathize, so I give advice.  If you take it, you may get what I thought you wanted.  If you don't, it makes no difference to me.

As someone with AS, I'm sure the emotional soothing of pity or sympathy is of little value to you.  Therefore, you must have wanted a solution.  If you fail to act on the advice you received, it is only your fault.  But that's okay because only you are effected.


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## Pbartender (Jul 5, 2005)

Aethelstan, I'm in the same boat...



			
				Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> It's BORDERLINE autism.




It's hardly even that.  My seven year old son is a high-functioning autistic.  With the help of family, friends and teachers, he's learning to live with it, and is far, far more functional than most autistics.  He has lots friends, most of whom are girls...  His entire kindergarten class came to his birthday party this year.  They ask after him, when he's home sick from school.

Now, my seven-year-old autistic son can snag himself a dozen girlfriends within a year without even trying...  what's your excuse, again?

Quit your complaining and do something about the problem, or quit your complaining and don't.  Either way, quit your complaining.  Your troubles are by no means insurmountable.


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## Alan Shutko (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> As I see it, if I take the advice and comform, I become like the people in society I don't like.




Right.  You'd become happy, and you don't like people like that.  Come on, sign up for Beauty and the Geek... you could win a quarter mil and show everyone up!


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## Heretic Apostate (Jul 5, 2005)

Why do women send mixed signals?

Simple.  Because they can.


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## nerfherder (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I did try professnial help. At the first session, after I told the Doc everything I thought I had issues with, my AS, everything, She looked right at me and said "I don't know what I can do to help you." Her EXACT WORDS. So I asked her what I was doing there, paid her my $10.00 copay, and left. I came out of that thinking that I took a risk and tryed to change, and this is what God does to help me? God must not want me to get help then, so I have to accept who I am.



Wow, and people complain about the healthcare in the UK.  I didn't realise it was so bad in the US that you only have one therapist/counsellor in the whole country.

Try another therapist.

Cheers,
Liam


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## The Shaman (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I came out of that thinking that I took a risk and tryed to change, and this is what God does to help me? God must not want me to get help then, so I have to accept who I am.



Online Asperger Syndrome Information and Support

Asperger's Association of New England

G_d is speaking to you right now, on this bulletin board - are you listening?


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## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

Aethelstan said:
			
		

> My son has high functioning autism so initially I felt some sympathy toward Ken.  But as this thread progressed and Ken's post grew increasing egoistically and self-deluded, sympathy turned to something boardering on rage.  Every day my son struggles to engage in basic human inteaction.  He often can not bring himself to talk to others and when he does his comments are often odd or inappropreate.  Yet, despite his disability (which is far more profound that Ken's), he makes an real effort to connect with people.   He greets friends, asks people about their favorite things and makes a point of learning the birthday of everyone he meets (he has savant abilities with names and dates and can tell you what day your birthday falls on up to 15 years in the future or past).  However, Ken, who has intellectual abilities far beyond my son's, can not be bothered with any of these simple courtesies because 99.9% of humanity (or every living person but him) are, in his unshakable opinion, all lying fakes.  I would give my left eye to give my son even half the communitive skill Ken has.  My son will never have a girlfriend, never marry.  But Ken has the gaul to whine about how his AS makes it hard for him to get a sex partner he doesn't have to pay for.  He has the mental abilities and basic, if limited, social skills to successfully interact with women.  He understands how AS hinders his sex buddy search but willfully chooses to make not the slightest effort to change the way he relates with others (i.e. the lying fakes).   Ken raises the shield of AS in a pathetic and self-serving attempt to fend off the pointed barbs he so richly deserves.  My son, who struggles to pull himself form his own inner world, shows more concern for and interest in his fellow humans than bitter, self-absorbed Ken, the AS martyr.
> How dare he use autism to gain sympathy for a lonely and pathetic existence which is of his own making!




  Once again, someone knows me so well they feel like they can attack me. I'm sick of it. I said I would try things that other people have metioned. But it does not happen overnight. But I still get attacked from you people.


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## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

The Traveler said:
			
		

> Far less of what you have described in this thread is Asperger's than you think, and people who suffer from Asperger's can integrate into society without losing that special spark of what makes them unique.
> 
> I am someone who has been very stubborn towards suggestions that I be medicated, and to this day I am still not medicated. I recognize that different things work for different people, and I have acknowledged that my not wanting to be medicated is a personal issue rather than any real danger.
> 
> Still, I have seen people who flourish under medication, and they take the exact opposite opinion. They aren't different people because of medication. Rather, medication allows them to express who they were all along.





  Well, I know most of you will think I'm BS'ing, but lots of people in my family are recoving addicts. I don't want to become like them, depentent on drugs. I have also seen people on mood altering drugs or what I call "Happy pills". Its not fun, they smile all the time and can't express any other emotion, even when they try to. I will not go though life like that.


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## Turanil (Jul 5, 2005)

Morpheus said:
			
		

> In reading the whole of this thread <...>



You really did?!   Man, each time I get a look at it, I tire of it after reading three or four posts. I generally only read the shorter ones. 

This won't prevent me to give my authorized or important opinion however:

Ken, AS or not, women (except for my daughter and my girlfriend of course) are bi@¶tc*h•es, and you should better rely on masturbation and then find some escapism in RPGs. Just my two cents of course   ...


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## The Traveler (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I have also seen people on mood altering drugs or what I call "Happy pills". Its not fun, they smile all the time and can't express any other emotion, even when they try to. I will not go though life like that.



There are two possibilities here, and one of them is more likely.
They have been misdosed, as often mood altering medication is an ongoing process of "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" due to the subtle differences in brain chemistry. Some medications work for some people, others don't. In the early phases of medication, often doctors will put a patient through different regimens until they find a product and dosage that works best.
You may well have simply projected your own fears of addiction onto these people and seen what you wanted to see. I know I did on more than one occasion, and I got called on it and realized what a jerk I was being.


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## Joker (Jul 5, 2005)

If I say suicide is an option, would that be too harsh and inconsiderate?  Because if it is, I won't say it.


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## Mercule (Jul 5, 2005)

And, Joker casts "Summon Mod V" spell.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 5, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I hope this isn't another one of those Hida/Majoru/Asperger Syndrome threads where people chime in, apparently unable to fathom such mindbending concepts as "Small Talk", "White Lies" and "Politeness" as ingredients in normal, healthy social interaction...because those are sad.




Hey, I take offense to this.  It is a crime to want people to speak their minds instead of pretending to like things they don't?  In this situation, I'd much rather have the woman say "Look, I don't think I really want to meet you in real life, you just don't sound like my type." than tell me "call me later and we'll see."

I once had a woman that I asked out tell me yes to going out a couple of times but keep coming up with last minute excuses why should couldn't go out for almost a month until I finally said "Look, do you want to go out or not, because it sounds like you don't." and then she told me she had a boyfriend the entire time and didn't have the heart to tell me because she was afraid I'd feel bad.  I felt worse for the next 2 weeks or so than I ever would have if she had just said no in the first place.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 5, 2005)

> Once again, someone knows me so well they feel like they can attack me. I'm sick of it. I said I would try things that other people have metioned. But it does not happen overnight. But I still get attacked from you people.




Sadly, 'tis the nature of the Interweb. Like some savage group of jackals, when you show weakness, people will jump on it and not let you up.

You're saying you're taking the advice. Excellent. I hope you're giving it a real chance and not just doing it because you feel forced to, because I don't think it can work in the latter case. 

Find another therapist, and be explicit and honest about the specific things you want to try and work through with them. "I am sad and alone and I don't want to be, and I think this can help," is a good start. You gotta be willing and eager to embrace the change, because from what I know, no therapist is going to FORCE you to be happy. Generally, they help you make yourself that way. Few therapists will give you the tuff luv you're getting here (which seems to have broken through, despite some folks going pretty overboard).



> In this situation, I'd much rather have the woman say "Look, I don't think I really want to meet you in real life, you just don't sound like my type." than tell me "call me later and we'll see."




We all would rather that happen, man. But let her be human and make mistakes, and you'll find that such openmindedness can reward you with a girl who was maybe going outside of her normal dating type for once to see what it's like. Allow other people the freedom to make mistakes and be wrong. It happens all the time. It's no big deal.


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## amethal (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Hey, I take offense to this.  It is a crime to want people to speak their minds instead of pretending to like things they don't?  In this situation, I'd much rather have the woman say "Look, I don't think I really want to meet you in real life, you just don't sound like my type." than tell me "call me later and we'll see."



This is a very long thread, and I may well have misunderstood, but 

I think in this case the woman was on some kind of dating agency thingy whereby standard practice is (apparently) to see about getting dates with a few members of the opposite sex rather than concentrate all your energies on one person at a time.

She put KenM on hold while she saw how a date with another person turned out, and then later decided in the other person's favour and told KenM she no longer wanted a date with him.

"Call me later and we'll see" is actually a fair reflection of her position at the time (even if its not a particularly happy one from KenM's point of view).

Other than that, I agree with you that its better to be told "no thanks" from the start if that's what the person actually thinks.

The other problem with politeness is that it only works if the other person is on your wavelength. For example, my gran has (obviously) known me all my life, but still persists in repeatedly offering me food, in the face of consistent refusals on my part, because she thinks I am just being polite in refusing.

One of the more unpleasant evenings of my life occurred as a result of a group of relative strangers asking me if I wanted to come along with them for the evening. I like meeting new people, so I readily agreed. 

As a result, I left a group of people who were happy to have me with them in order to spend time with a group of people who didn't want me with them and who became more and more rude in their efforts to get rid of me - but who were still unable to actually come out and tell me that they hadn't meant the invite and it would be better if I left.

Why the heck they invited me in the first place I will never know. Presumably it was because they were being "polite", but I consider that the "polite" thing to do would have been to say "nice meeting you, hope to see you again some time" (even when it isn't true) and leave to continue the rest of their evening (as they had previously planned, so it wasn't as if I would have thought they were leaving on my account).


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## Turanil (Jul 5, 2005)

Mercule said:
			
		

> And, Joker casts "Summon Mod V" spell.



What's the casting time?  

By the way, if I insult some political and religious figure, does it count for Mod Summoning IX? Anyway, I fear that I am much too meek to attempt such a mighty spell...


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## Mercule (Jul 5, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> What's the casting time?




Apparently, longer than I thought.  Or, it could just be that he's crafted a magical trap, fulfilling the conditions required for a successful response to the "Report Post" button.



> By the way, if I insult some political and religious figure, does it count for Mod Summoning IX? Anyway, I fear that I am much too meek to attempt such a mighty spell...




Likewise.  I'm also afraid that my Use Magic Device check may end up with a backfire.  And that's not good.


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## Dinkeldog (Jul 5, 2005)

Joker said:
			
		

> If I say suicide is an option, would that be too harsh and inconsiderate?  Because if it is, I won't say it.




Joker, you're always welcome to not read a thread.  I recommend that in this case.


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## DarrenGMiller (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Once again, someone knows me so well they feel like they can attack me. I'm sick of it. I said I would try things that other people have metioned. But it does not happen overnight. But I still get attacked from you people.




In-freaking-credible.  You call it an attack?  I call it truth.  So far, any poster who has given you the unadulterated truth has been labelled as attacking you, yet the truth is all you claim to crave.  The logo is correct, "You can't handle the truth."  What you really want is sympathy.  

The person to whom you are responding moved me almost to tears.  You are no more special than anyone elsethan this person's child.  My brother was also far less functional than you, but he (and my parents along with him) always tried to play the "that doesn't apply to me because I am different" card.  When presented with stories about how people suffering from what my brother suffered from, he and my parents always responded with some variation of, "You just don't understand.  Our case is different."  Using this crutch, they refued to take advantage of all of the techniques and options open to them.  My parents refused to give my brother any "tough love" which is somethimes painful, but often necessary.  TB and others have been trying to give this to you straight, with some "tough love."  Yesterday, when everyone else in America (I know, a generalization, I guess that makes me a liar) was celebrating the birth of the country, I was thinking of my brother's death.  He died seven years ago yesterday.  It was unnecessary, but in retrospect, couldn't have turned out any other way.  He died as peacefully as was possible for him, while my parents slept unaware in another room.  His last words to my father were, "I hate you, you f***ing bas***d!"  Because my father got him an apartment and offered to pay his rent so he could live closer to home and not in the middle of a crime-ridden neighborhood hours from my parents' home, where my father would drive sometimes twice a week to do his laundry and find his glasses or plug in his television or even replace his television when he smashed it with a basebal bat.  He had simply abused his body too much while my parents coddled him and felt sorry for him and his body decided it couldn't handle it anymore.

You are still alive.  Do something about your condition.  I am sorry if you consider this an attack.  You need a wake up call.

DM


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Once again, someone knows me so well they feel like they can attack me. I'm sick of it. I said I would try things that other people have metioned. But it does not happen overnight. But I still get attacked from you people.



I guess that may be attributed to the problem that people don´t read all posts or might overlook some - even if they´re important.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 5, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Fair enough, but if honesty is important enough to you that you are willing to alienate yourself from most of the world because of it, don't you think that's a little...extreme? Isn't that like the blind man who never leaves his house because he can't see the world anymore?
> 
> If you're happy being that judgemental and extreme, by all means, continue...but otherwise, why can't you accept other people for who they are? Why does trivial lying hurt you that much? Why be offended when people are different when you could just accept their difference and live with them?



By the same token, why is it that everyone in the thread has so much a problem with his behaviour that they feel the need to point out the problems with it?  Isn't it better to accept his way of life is different than yours and that he doesn't need to socialize in the same ways you do?

He wasn't saying "I don't have enough friends" or "I wish I could socialize better" he said "Why do women not say what they mean straightfowardly?"

If you want the answer, Ken, it's because the majority of people feel they need to lie and mislead in order to be "polite" and because it is the "rules" of interpersonal relationships.  You don't hurt people's feelings by telling them what you really think, you don't want to burn any bridges or get anyone angry at you.

There IS a section of society that works closer to the way you and I think though, Ken.  We tell each other the truth, we say "No, I really don't want to go." rather than "I have to...stay at home and...paint my walls."  I know because I have a decently large group of friends who think like this.  It IS possible to have interpersonal relationships without lying except at the most minimum level.  There also ARE women out there that subscribe to this way of thinking as well.  Unfortunately, they are rare.

However, contrary to TB's beliefs, we aren't such a small portion of the population so as to be an abberation.  We also don't need to be "fixed".  People who think like us get along with each other just fine.  We aren't some sort of disease that needs to be "corrected" by instilling the beliefs of the majority into us.


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## Humanophile (Jul 5, 2005)

It's heartening to see this thread go the way it is.  Medication probably isn't the answer for Ken, but some sorting out his issues is.  At least making a game effort to catch his bad behavior and mitigate it seems likely.  (And Ken, you seem bright enough to do that.  There'll be catches along the way, but progress seems very likely.)

Also, Ken, I don't really see your aspergers being your primary issue here.  It may feed into it, but you seem primarily hung up on not being burned.  I'm aware your ex and your stepfather did you bad, as I'm sure several other people have over time.  As Ralts so succinctly pointed out, we've all had bad  happen to us.  I'm not asking you to open your heart and your bank account to anyone who asks, I'm just saying that you should try to have a little more give.  Misunderstandings and unexpected situations do happen.

One other thing to keep in mind:  Girls will tend to lie while playing the dating game because they don't want to hurt your feelings (crazy, granted, but wailing and gnashing your teeth won't change it), or often because they've had the truth backfire on them many times before.  One of my dearest friends lied to me about not having a boyfriend until I called her out on it, because when she and he became official she had several other male friends jump ship.  But don't just insist that you deserve 100% honesty because you're not other boys; the girls can turn around and ask for 100% trust and forgiveness because they're not your ex-girlfriend.  Rather, accept that as you both grow on each other and learn each other's quirks and foilibles, you'll be able to prove that honesty _is_ the best policy with you.  But realize it'll take some time for them to get used to who you actually are, rather than expecting them to intuit that off the bat.


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## Hijinks (Jul 5, 2005)

I think the folks here who are getting angry are doing so more out of frustration than anything else; I know I am just frustrated that KenM seems to not be listening and keeps posting further inflammatory posts.  He almost smells like a troll to me at this point; every time he posts he's attacking others for what they say.



> I said I would try things that other people have metioned. But it does not happen overnight. But I still get attacked from you people.



But yet you say you still refuse to "conform," and you've made it obvious that you consider all of the advice you've gotten thusfar as "comforming."  Doesn't sound to me like you plan to try the "things that other people have mentioned" at all.


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## nerfherder (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> He wasn't saying "I don't have enough friends" or "I wish I could socialize better" he said "Why do women not say what they mean straightfowardly?"



Yes, we know all that - it was answered for him multiple times on page one.



			
				Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> By the same token, why is it that everyone in the thread has so much a problem with his behaviour that they feel the need to point out the problems with it?  Isn't it better to accept his way of life is different than yours and that he doesn't need to socialize in the same ways you do?



KenM said that he was happy with most aspects of his life, other than the lack of a partner.  Various people then posted advice which would help him attract and keep a partner.

Isn't that better than to say "Sorry mate.  Yes, I could help you, but no I'm not going to, because you've got to accept your current way of life"?

Cheers,
Liam

P.S. have you actually bothered to read any of this thread?  Do you want to help KenM find his soul-mate (which is what this thread turned into part way through page 1), or are you just trolling?


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 5, 2005)

Well once again Ken avoided answering the question I posted much earlier in this thread.  Not sure if it is because he refuses to examine the hypothetical situation or because he is incabable of understanding it but I will stop trying to figure it out.

I am going to make what will probably be my last comment on this thread and bring it back a little bit to what started this whole thing; relationships.

At the wedding I was in this weekend, I was thinking of something to write in the guestbook and this is what I came up with for advice to the new bride and groom:

"A loving relationship is _ not _ about give and take.  It is about give and _ receive _."  

You can only take what has been freely given by your partner.  If you demand more, you will never have a healthy relationship.  By demanding that a woman be always truthful to you, Ken, you destroy the partnership of any possible relationship before it has even begun.  Your only choices are to learn to accept what others can (and cannot) give, or to isolate yourself and learn to accept that instead.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 5, 2005)

Humanophile said:
			
		

> But realize it'll take some time for them to get used to who you actually are, rather than expecting them to intuit that off the bat.



Before that can happen though, hasn't this thread more than made clear that it's also going to take Ken some time to get used to who others are first... and he resents that no one is living up to his angelic standards. Probably even himself.

I mean you won't be sitting around in a nascent relationship waiting for someone else to get used to you if you are incapable of giving that other person even *greater* slack than you expect in return.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 5, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> But yet you say you still refuse to "conform," and you've made it obvious that you consider all of the advice you've gotten thusfar as "comforming."  Doesn't sound to me like you plan to try the "things that other people have mentioned" at all.



Perhaps I can explain.  Unlikely though, since the last time I tried, I got a barrage of people giving me the same lectures he is getting.

In the world I live in, which (as far as I can tell) is similar to Ken's, I have about 20 or so friends.  I hang out with the same people every weekend, we do similar things every week and we enjoy our lives.  We like our weekly role playing sessions, we like spending Saturday night playing computer games.  We have a bunch of friends we trust completely because every time we've asked them to do something they've come through for us, they show up reliably to the things we invite them to, and they listen to us without making fun of us.  So, because of that, we can tell them anything and we are happy with that.

We don't know very many women, however.  The ones we know are married or dating someone we know.  A couple of them are women who, at least somewhat, are people we would date if they were available.  So, we know women like we are looking for are out there.  We assume there must be more of them.  So, we look for them.  We just don't know where to look, since our "normal" life doesn't require us to hang out in the places people find women.

Not having a girlfriend isn't horrible.  We don't spend every day of our life sulking.  However, it would be nice.  A lot like that house by the waterfront most people wish they had but can't afford.  It would be nice, but it's not important enough to spend that much money on. 

In a similar way, when people tell us the way to find women is to stop doing a large portion of what we like in our lives and to go against our principles (for instance, lying, drugs, smoking, cheating, etc) in order to get women and unless we change, we will never meet a woman and we will be lonely and die without any human contact at all.

And we don't believe them...because we see our friends who are just as socially inept as we are getting women.  The women they get are ones we wouldn't mind dating, so we no our standards aren't unreasonably high.  However, we are told by everyone here that what we know is wrong.  That anyone who thinks like we do and refuses to change is bound to be a loser with no friends all their life.

Frankly, I was tired of people telling me my way of life was wrong when we had a thread about me that I stopped reading due to the amount of abuse (yes, it stopped being advice after the first person or two and just ended up being abuse) I was taking.  I can't sit back and watch you guys do it to another person, however.  You THINK you are helping, but you aren't.

I wish I could explain it in a way you'll understand.  Each of you must have something you believe in, something important enough that you wouldn't sacrifce it for anything, maybe a wife, maybe it's a favorite hobby, maybe its religion, whatever.  Now, imagine there was something you wanted, for instance: money, power, love, etc.  That's easy, simply give up worshipping your relgion and you will get it, or divorce your wife and never talk to her again and you will get it, etc.  Now, you'd probably be offended that someone would even suggest giving up a part of you that is so important.  You'd flat out say "No way, it's not worth that much to me."  Right, now imagine that instead of ONE person suggesting such an outrageous notion to you, that instead it was about 10.  When you try to explain to them why you are looking for ANOTHER way to get what you want other than give up such an important thing in your life, you are told "you aren't even listening you us, we are just telling you the truth.  If you don't give up what you hold dear, you will never get what you want."

I say, it's full of ****.  There is always more than 1 way to get what you want.  I also don't think your way is better than his like you make it sound.


----------



## nerfherder (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Perhaps I can explain.



OK, thanks for the explanation.  That answers some of my concerns about your motives.

I do disagree with you, though.

You say that having a girlfriend would be nice, not having one isn't horrible.  From that, and the rest of your post, I'm guessing then that you don't have a girlfriend, or have had many, and you aren't really looking for one?  

KenM has said that he has a personal ad up, and is actively looking to find a partner.  He broke up with his previous girlfriend a couple of months back and is using a strategy (internet dating) that he finds works best for him.  However, he's had a setback with the girl flaking on him.

I don't think the best advice for him is to just sit back in his comfort zone and wait for the rest of the world to adjust to his current way of thinking.  He doesn't sound like he wants to be single for the rest of his life.

I'm hoping Ken goes away, thinks long about what he wants in life and how hard he's prepared to work for it and takes the first brave step to make it happen.

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Hijinks (Jul 5, 2005)

All I was saying, Majoru, was that KenM asked for advice, we gave it, then he said that if he took our advice he'd be "conforming," and he doesn't want to do that.

As I said, most of the posters here are just frustrated, not angry. As in my example a page or so back: if someone whines to you about an aspect of their life that they don't like, and you make common sense suggestions from your own experience, and the person continues to make excuses about why he can't follow your advice, and gets defensive and acts like you're attacking him, when all you're doing is trying to help him (because he came to you), then yes, you would get frustrated also.

KenM also made it plain that he expected a woman to agree to be with him, and in that agreement she was also agreeing to give up all of her friends, because he refuses to socialize with people he doesn't know (even if they are friends of the woman he's with). In my mind, that's an unrealistic expectation. 90% of the posts in this thread have been made by people who are trying to make him see that his expectations are unrealistic. Some posters have been more blunt than others. But, in my opinion, he seems to be fanning the flames himself every time he posts anew.


----------



## reveal (Jul 5, 2005)

I also think people are frustrated but need to realize this about AS:



> Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest.




IMHO, I don't think anyone here is going to change KenM's thinking on this topic. I'm not blaming his POV or any of his posts on AS, but it does explain a lot and is what made me stop posting any more advice because I figure it will go unheeded and just frustrate me.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 5, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> Yes, we know all that - it was answered for him multiple times on page one.



The answer didn't satisfy me, I don't know why it would him.  The answer was basically "just because that's the way it is.  Everyone lies, get used to it, you are the ONLY one who thinks they way you do, and unless you start thinking like us, you are doomed."



			
				nerfherder said:
			
		

> Isn't that better than to say "Sorry mate.  Yes, I could help you, but no I'm not going to, because you've got to accept your current way of life"?



Well, I would have prefered an answer that fits better into his life.  Want one?  Ok:

Not all women lie like that, just the majority of them.  I've met ones who don't.  There are a group of people (including women) who are like you.  It may take a while to find someone because we ARE in the minority, but don't you think it would be worth it to wait for someone who has the same ideals as you than change who you are to please some woman who doesn't even fit your idea of a woman you like?

I suggest keeping your personal ads on as many sites as possible.  I suggest asking all of your friends to keep an eye out for women who may be single.  I suggest going to gaming conventions and getting involved in activities that you like, there may be women there.



			
				nerfherder said:
			
		

> P.S. have you actually bothered to read any of this thread?  Do you want to help KenM find his soul-mate (which is what this thread turned into part way through page 1), or are you just trolling?



I'm not trolling, I've read most of the thread.  I empathize with Ken and I know how I felt in a similar situation to him.  What I'm trying to do is show that answers that may work for you won't work for him.  Your lifestyle may not fit his life.  And that there's nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Each of you must have something you believe in, something important enough that you wouldn't sacrifce it for anything, maybe a wife, maybe it's a favorite hobby, maybe its religion, whatever.  Now, imagine there was something you wanted, for instance: money, power, love, etc.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I say, it's full of ****.  There is always more than 1 way to get what you want.  I also don't think your way is better than his like you make it sound.




...pulled back in...

1) I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Ken give up something that he would not sacrifice for anything.  Ken has said he does not want to take medication for various reasons, most of which I can accept.  I have not yet seen what he hold so dear that he is not willing to accept therapy (which I think may be more effective in the situation Ken is in) and he does not also seem to accept that not everything someone does (i.e not be completely honest with him) is a personal attack on him that deserves retaliation.  If those are the things he is unwilling to sacrifice, then nobody here is probably able to help him.

2) If you don't want advice, or only want advice you'll like, don't go asking for it on a public forum.

3) There may very well be more than one way to get what you want, but how can "our" way be better than "his" way when he does not know what "his" way is, other than sitting around, waiting for God, or someone else to make things happen for him.  

Again, he asked for advice, opinions etc.  He has rejected much (if not all) people have given him, and made, what sounds to many of us, excuses.  I guess we are just not such a shallow community here that we are willing to let people wallow in self-pity when we think we can help them.  If Ken does not want our advice anymore, he can do as you did and give up on reading the postings.  By his coming back again and again, we think there is a chance to reason with him, break through the barriers he has and convince him to take some kind, _ any _ kind, of action to fix what he sees as a problem.  Of course the only one he can fix is himself, which is the main point I think we are all trying to get across.  We cannot fix things for Ken, we can offer our advice as to what he can do to fix things himself.  On the other side of the coin, Ken cannot "fix" everyone else.  He cannot, by wishing it or demanding it, change the world or the people in it any more than they can do it to him.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 5, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> You say that having a girlfriend would be nice, not having one isn't horrible.  From that, and the rest of your post, I'm guessing then that you don't have a girlfriend, or have had many, and you aren't really looking for one?
> 
> KenM has said that he has a personal ad up, and is actively looking to find a partner.  He broke up with his previous girlfriend a couple of months back and is using a strategy (internet dating) that he finds works best for him.  However, he's had a setback with the girl flaking on him.



I am actively looking as well.  As I mentioned, I created a thread that ended up asking pretty much the same question he did a couple of months ago.

I have personal ads up in a couple of places on the internet as well.  My last relationship was a couple of months ago due to my personal ad.  It was long distance for about 2 months, then I flew out to meet her, she got disgusted that I was a slob and couldn't stand the fact that I didn't brush my teeth one day during the weekend I was there and dumped me.

Before that, I've only had 2 real relationships, both about 3 and a half years long each.

Women are a little flaky sometimes.  We deal with that, and I'm sure he'll meet someone that he likes soon enough.  And when you do, Ken, send her younger sister to me.  *grin*


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## Tewligan (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I have met a few people though the personal ad, and for whatever reason it does not work out, the "spark" just was not there or whatever. I always say that it was fun meeting them and getting to know them a little, and wish them luck in the future. They were honest with me.



Is it really always fun meeting them, even when it was a painfully awkward date? Or is that just something you say to be polite?


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 5, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> KenM also made it plain that he expected a woman to agree to be with him, and in that agreement she was also agreeing to give up all of her friends, because he refuses to socialize with people he doesn't know (even if they are friends of the woman he's with). In my mind, that's an unrealistic expectation. 90% of the posts in this thread have been made by people who are trying to make him see that his expectations are unrealistic. Some posters have been more blunt than others. But, in my opinion, he seems to be fanning the flames himself every time he posts anew.



I understand where you are coming from, I'm just stating that you have to be a bit more flexable.  90% of the people here may think that his expectations are unrealistic.  I, personally, like to think that people like he describe exist.  I know most people here will say "there may be only 5% of women out there who are like that.  It's unrealistic to try to find them."  I know that the posters where would actually estimate the number that qualify as much less than that, so low as to basically be impossible.  I prefer to think that if there are guys out there like me, Ken, and some of my friends, that it means there are women out there like us as well.


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## BOZ (Jul 5, 2005)

watching people beat their heads against the wall trying to disrupt someone else's circular logic is only amusing for a little while.  

and yet, i still keep reading!  maybe i'm hoping it will get interesting again.


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## The Traveler (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I prefer to think that if there are guys out there like me, Ken, and some of my friends, that it means there are women out there like us as well.



The question is, would you recognize them, and if you did would you be attracted to them?


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> she got disgusted that I was a slob and couldn't stand the fact that I didn't brush my teeth one day during the weekend I was there and dumped me.



Relationship rule #1: WASH YOUR NASTY ASS!

Yeah, Majoru, I remember your thread too.

I've noticed something about the relationship threads that pop up on ENWorld.

For the most part, people aren't interested in advice on getting a member of the opposite sex, since that takes time, effort, and honest to God caring about someone else.

They want to complain.

30 year olds with no job, 200 lbs overwieght, who don't shower every day expecting a supermodel to come down to the basement and romance them.

22 year olds who live with thier parents, who don't bathe, who want the woman to act as thier slave. Be there for what they want, but don't want to deal with the woman's problems

But you get advice on what you need to change, you don't want to hear it.

Relationship Advice #4: WHO THE HELL ARE YOU? What are you bringing to the table. To quote Janet Jackson: "What have you done for me lately?"

So I provided advice, I was even nice about it. Instead Ken gave me excuses. The same damn excuses people give when they don't want to be bothered with changing, the world should change for them, it's not thier fault, God did this to them, life isn't fair, etcetera, etcetera, drekcetera.

Everyone has flaws, everyone has problems. The difference between what I've seen here and in other threads like it, is that many people are willing to work at fixing them, are willing to go the distance.

Are you?


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I understand where you are coming from, I'm just stating that you have to be a bit more flexable.  90% of the people here may think that his expectations are unrealistic.  I, personally, like to think that people like he describe exist.  I know most people here will say "there may be only 5% of women out there who are like that.  It's unrealistic to try to find them."  I know that the posters where would actually estimate the number that qualify as much less than that, so low as to basically be impossible.  I prefer to think that if there are guys out there like me, Ken, and some of my friends, that it means there are women out there like us as well.



Yeah, there are. But you overlook them constantly. They aren't "hot enough" for any of you.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I understand where you are coming from, I'm just stating that you have to be a bit more flexable.  90% of the people here may think that his expectations are unrealistic.  I, personally, like to think that people like he describe exist.  I know most people here will say "there may be only 5% of women out there who are like that.  It's unrealistic to try to find them."  I know that the posters where would actually estimate the number that qualify as much less than that, so low as to basically be impossible.  I prefer to think that if there are guys out there like me, Ken, and some of my friends, that it means there are women out there like us as well.




I'm sure you are correct and those types of women exist, but how do you think you will find each other?  By mutually not going to social occasions and making small talk?


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## Nareau (Jul 5, 2005)

For those of you just tuning in, here's a quick recap on the guy we're trying to help find a date:

KenM...
...has paid for sex with a stranger
...decided not to rape someone because he was afraid of being punished
...fails to get help for a mental disorder that he finds debilitating
...in only interested in other people when he needs something from them
...thinks that having a personal ad online is "taking a risk"
...uses a combination of sarcasm and martyrdom to mask his self-pitying and egotism
...blames God for his miserable life
...thinks that "getting even" is an appropriate way to handle being hurt

In the interest of being totally honest with people, I suggest Ken paste that list into his online personal ad.

In the interest of saving some innocent woman out there, I suggest people stop giving Ken advice on how to get a date.  His posts make him sound like a bitter creep at best, and dangerously vindictive at worst.

Spider


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 5, 2005)

> Frankly, I was tired of people telling me my way of life was wrong when we had a thread about me that I stopped reading due to the amount of abuse (yes, it stopped being advice after the first person or two and just ended up being abuse) I was taking. I can't sit back and watch you guys do it to another person, however. You THINK you are helping, but you aren't.




In order to change the way your world works, you need to be welcoming of changing of yourself. You need to embrace the criticism, take the abuse, don't just shut out the world, and distill the virtue from the words. We've lit the torch aflame for Ken, just as we did for you, MO, but each individual has to torch their own fields, and built up from the ashes again.

To be a well-adjusted human being is to burn your fields time and time again as your life's circumstances dictate. There's no value in judging others unworthy of your time and attention for small infractions while you demand acceptance for your own. 

Can you live your life happy without doing it? Sure. But I've known people who've lived their life happy to their dying day lying, cheating, stealing, and getting drugged. What makes your method so much more wonderful than theirs? What makes yours any more healthy? Any more worthy of society's respect?

As a person who refuses to change when they have the power to, you are an alcoholic who refuses to get help, a coke head who refuses to try and stop, a pedophile who justifies what they're doing by joining NAMBLA, or one of those pro-annorexia supporters. You are selfish and self-indulgent, and maybe that is okay for you. But there is NO reason that it has to be okay for ANYONE else. So you can either learn to play nice with others, or shelter yourself and protect yourself and refuse to change because you're right and no one's gonna tell you otherwise! Just like a NAMBLA member, just like a heroin addict who refuses help, just like someone who practices "safe annorexia."

For what it's worth, I think some part of KenM might want to get past it, get help, and change for the better. I think that flame needs to be fanned as much as possible. Because that is the Light Side of the Force. That is the hard path that will bear the most rewards. Because then he will be himself, and ALSO be in control of himself. This leads to confidence, bravery, and courage, and that leads to changing more, being more flexible, and in turn daring and changing the world, and THAT, MO, compadre, THAT is what being human is all about. We were put here as masters of this planet, not slaves to it.

I'm not just spouting babble. I lived it. I'm in it. You can be too. It is the harder path, but it is infinately more rewarding.



			
				Boz said:
			
		

> watching people beat their heads against the wall trying to disrupt someone else's circular logic is only amusing for a little while.




If you give up, man, the terrorists have already won! Who wants that?!


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## Arnwyn (Jul 5, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I hope this isn't another one of those Hida/Majoru/Asperger Syndrome threads where people chime in, apparently unable to fathom such mindbending concepts as "Small Talk", "White Lies" and "Politeness" as ingredients in normal, healthy social interaction...because those are sad.



Are you kidding me? I love these trainwreck threads. It's like TV at work.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 5, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Relationship rule #1: WASH YOUR NASTY ASS!



Ya, well, I did.  It didn't help.  Besides, I'm not asking for advice about me anymore, I learned my lesson.



			
				Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Relationship Advice #4: WHO THE HELL ARE YOU? What are you bringing to the table. To quote Janet Jackson: "What have you done for me lately?"



I'd like to think that people are looking for a friend.  Intelligence, someone to talk to who is interesting, who shares your idea of whats fun.  A sense a humour is important, someone you feel comfortable around, you can trust, and something you are at least slightly attracted to..  I think I bring all of this to the table.  I"m sure Ken has his own perks as well.

I'm good at being someone's best friend that I care about.  I will be there for them through anything.  I've endured hours of crying from one of my gfs when she didn't even know why she was crying (very hormonally imbalanced).  I've sat there and listened to my other gf complain about her family, her problems in life and I've enjoyed every minute of it (or at least MOSTLY enjoyed it) because it meant I could share that time with them.

Last, I bring dedication and devotion and absolute love without question.  When I care about something, they can be assured that will never end.

That's what I bring, and to me that is much more important than being able to pretend to like soccer because all her friends like it.  I bring being me to the table.  I'm looking for someone who wants that.  I don't consider it impossible.  You are right, having a lot of money, being good looking and being the life of the party would get me more women.  That's not who I am, nor would I be happy doing that just to meet (and then keep) a woman.

From what I've read of Ken's posts, he wouldn't be happy either if he had a woman but instead had to put effort and thought into every action he took just to make sure he didn't say anything antisocial or burn any bridges.  Too much effort for too little result.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 5, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I think that flame needs to be fanned as much as possible. Because that is the Light Side of the Force. That is the hard path that will bear the most rewards. Because then he will be himself, and ALSO be in control of himself. This leads to confidence, bravery, and courage, and that leads to changing more, being more flexible, and in turn daring and changing the world, and THAT, MO, my smelly little friend, THAT is what being human is all about. We were put here as masters of this planet, not slaves to it.



Did I miss something, how is it that your way is the Light Side of the Force (and by insinuation, his way is the Dark Side)?

I understand your point, you think that trying to become "more" than who you are is a good thing.  I even commend that part of it.

However, whose definition of "more" is correct?  Basically, as I read your posts, it's obviously yours.  Instead of saying "you could go out and meet more people, you might just find someone you like." you are saying "you must change to be more like me".  Perhaps there is another way that fits him better.  Perhaps being like you is NOT the correct answer for every person.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult me.  I'm certain a direct insult is not only against board rules, it's against good taste.


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## BOZ (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Ya, well, I did.  It didn't help.




you do need to do it more than once.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 5, 2005)

> Also, I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult me. I'm certain a direct insult is not only against board rules, it's against good taste.




Ya, I got carried away. Editing and apologies. *bow*



> However, whose definition of "more" is correct? Basically, as I read your posts, it's obviously yours. Instead of saying "you could go out and meet more people, you might just find someone you like." you are saying "you must change to be more like me". Perhaps there is another way that fits him better. Perhaps being like you is NOT the correct answer for every person.




Well, I can only tell you one thing:

I'm not posting on internet Dungeons and Dragons message boards about how my romantic life is FUBAR'd. Is it? Oh, HECK yeah! But I'm not asking a random community of strangers to help me with my problems. I'm doing it myself. 

If your way leads to getting insulted on message boards, and my way leads to waking up with a smile on my face every morning, which would you say is correct? Logically? Going from the evidence? I have friends that I trust 100% completely and confidantes that would never violate me. Though they've all lied to me. And I don't let it upset me. And thus I am not unhappy very much, despite the manifold problems with the world and my life I have. Because being unhappy is fine and nessecary in small bursts, but unelss it serves as a motive for change, it seems pretty pointless to me...


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Ya, well, I did.  It didn't help.  Besides, I'm not asking for advice about me anymore, I learned my lesson.



Then ya shouldn't have brought it up. And you should have brushed your teeth that morning.




> --SNIP--
> Sorry, man, I'm not looking for a date and you ain't my type.
> --SNIP--
> I did notice, however, that you didn't list your standards for a woman.
> ...



OH! he has to put effort and thought into every action? My God, how will he ever survive?

So do many other people. Ever hear the saying: "Think before you speak/act?" That means: Engage your dust covered and atrophied cerrebullum before flapping your hamburger eating device. All of us have to think before we act.

That's why lots of people don't get killed.

Don't expect me to have sympathy for either one of you because you actually have to think before you speak.


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## nerfherder (Jul 5, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> In order to change the way your world works, you need to be welcoming of changing of yourself. You need to embrace the criticism, take the abuse, don't just shut out the world, and distill the virtue from the words. We've lit the torch aflame for Ken, just as we did for you, MO, but each individual has to torch their own fields, and built up from the ashes again.
> 
> To be a well-adjusted human being is to burn your fields time and time again as your life's circumstances dictate. There's no value in judging others unworthy of your time and attention for small infractions while you demand acceptance for your own.
> 
> ...



Standing round of applause for Kamikaze Midget!

Cheers,
Liam


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 5, 2005)

Oh, and on topic...

I just got done mowing the lawn.

I'm going to shower, dress decently now that the yardwork is done, open a beer, and decide what to cook for dinner for my wife and kids. Then, after dinner and the kids go to bed, I will have sex, shower, and lay down to sleep, comfortable in the knowledge that all the work I've done and will continue to do is and will pay off.

If you don't want to change out of fear you won't be you, don't expect the world to like you just because you are you.

So, while some of you sit in self-percieved superiority, posting to this board how great you are and don't understand why you are alone, I'll be out there living life and enjoying it.

Have fun.


----------



## reveal (Jul 5, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> watching people beat their heads against the wall trying to disrupt someone else's circular logic is only amusing for a little while.


----------



## The Traveler (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Last, I bring dedication and devotion and absolute love without question.  When I care about something, they can be assured that will never end.



This is all well and good unless you fail to articulate yourself and hold a woman's interest for long enough for her to be interested in the "real you."

This is where an inability to meet her halfway is a big stumbling block.


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## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> KenM also made it plain that he expected a woman to agree to be with him, and in that agreement she was also agreeing to give up all of her friends....




  Show me where I said she has to give up all her friends. I NEVER said that. Stop putting words in my mouth and speaking for me. I said I don't like large social gatherings, I don't want to be dragged to a large party with people I'm not interested in all the time.  Small soical things are fine. I would expect my GF/ SO to be like me in this way. Getting together will small groups. We both have our own friends and we get together with them from time to time.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 5, 2005)

The Traveler said:
			
		

> This is all well and good unless you fail to articulate yourself and hold a woman's interest for long enough for her to be interested in the "real you."
> 
> This is where an inability to meet her halfway is a big stumbling block.



Yes, I appreciate that point.  I think people are reading too much into a couple things I've said.  I've changed a lot for other people before.  I've gone out for dinner many times with one of my gf's friends who I didn't really like at all, but I tried, for her.

I didn't like my first gf's cousin at all.  She was best friends with her cousin though, so I invited her to my role playing meet and I'd do things with both of them often.  I joined The Lion King MUCK online because my gf liked it and I tried to understand why she liked it.  I'm not sitting around saying "I'm the greatest, if you don't like me, you aren't worth my time."

I have faith that Ken is exaggerating things slightly, the same as I did in my post.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 5, 2005)

Spider said:
			
		

> For those of you just tuning in, here's a quick recap on the guy we're trying to help find a date:
> 
> KenM...
> ...has paid for sex with a stranger
> ...




Ken, like Hida and Majoru, needs professional help. 

What else is there to say?


----------



## barsoomcore (Jul 5, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> If she asks "Does this pair of pants make my butt look big." he should answer it along the lines of "Does this pair of pants make me look like a Ken doll?"
> 
> Unless you are REALLY used to each other.
> 
> Then you can get away with "Oh yeah, baby, do they ever! Say, is that dressing room occupied?"



BWA HA HA HA HA HAAAAA...

WR, you an me gotta swap stories sometimes. That's brilliant.



			
				Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I've known people who've lived their life happy to their dying day lying, cheating, stealing, and getting drugged.



Hi! And enjoyed every second, let me tell you.



			
				Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I have faith that Ken is exaggerating things slightly, the same as I did in my post.



But... but... Ken NEVER lies! He said so!

I know this. When someone takes the time to offer you advice, there is only ONE appropriate response:

"Thank you."

KenM, your problem's NOT Asperger's, and your ongoing insistence that it is only serves to emphasize your real problem: your inability to confront your own fears.

I am truly sorry the world frightens you so much. It's big and painful and full of scary stuff. And if you want, you can spend your life hiding. Nobody can make you go outside and risk getting struck by lightning.

But let me whisper you a little secret:

Lightning can strike inside, too

There are no defenses against the scariness of the world. It will claw its way into whatever secure fortress you try to surround yourself with, and it will hurt you. That's what the world does. It hurts us, and when we think we've been hurt enough, it hurts us some more.

Don't like it? That's too bad. Sometimes I'm not so crazy about it, either. But I've decided that since there's no sanctuary to be found, I'm just going to go stomping into the heart of the storm and accept the lightning strikes as they come. They're kind of exciting, actually, when you look at them that way. And at least I haven't been wasting my time building a bunch of walls that won't keep out anything actually DANGEROUS, anyway.


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## PowerWordDumb (Jul 5, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I have faith that Ken is exaggerating things slightly, the same as I did in my post.




I'm curious:  To what end?  If someone is at the ponit where they'll ask for relationship advice on a board full of complete strangers, how does it possibly serve them to *overstate* their creepiness and social disasters?

If it's to turn around six pages later and say "Aww shucks, it's not as bad as I said, I'm really okay", then that's really a rather counterintuitive and pathetic way to pat yourself on the back.

You have to realize that on the internet, you are what you post.  We don't know you from adam, so whatever you say you're like, you're like.  If you paint a picture that's creepy, smelly, unfriendly, oversensitive, rude and downright nasty, then that's what you are - at least to the people you're talking to.  If you're not that way, then please don't paint that picture for us - trust us, nobody's any the happier for it.


----------



## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

I feel I have been totally truthful. But my own POV may have gotten in the way of how it really was. It was how I see them.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 5, 2005)

> I feel I have been totally truthful. But my own POV may have gotten in the way of how it really was. It was how I see them.




Yeah, putting words in KenM's mouth probably does no one any good. He's shown the endurance to stay around, so letting him speak for himself is probably best.

Of course, this is the same message board where wild speculation on Magic of Incarnum is being tossed around based on an Amazon blurb, so who am I to steer the wild rumor-ship.


----------



## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

Spider said:
			
		

> For those of you just tuning in, here's a quick recap on the guy we're trying to help find a date:
> 
> KenM...
> A...has paid for sex with a stranger
> ...




  A: If you pay for a nice $200.00 dinner, or pay $200.00/ hour for an escort, its still paying for sex, we all do it, this way is more direct. 

  B: Excuse me for not raping someone and geting arrested. So if you were in my situation, you would have raped her and gone to jail? What a nice guy you are. 

  C: Late in this thread, i said I would get help.

  D: This goes with C

  E: As oppossed to not doing anything to try to meet people, I feel that someone like me is doing something. 

  F: Working on it.

  G: I blame God for everything, the good as well as the bad. 

  H: So I will allow it to happen again and be screwed over again? I have too much respect for myself for that. I won't let people use me as a doormat.


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## eabha (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> B: Excuse me for not raping someone and geting arrested. So if you were in my situation, you would have raped her and gone to jail? What a nice guy you are.



I believe (_hope!_) Spider was pointing out that fear of punishment is not a very good reason for not raping someone.


----------



## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

Well, I don't feel like there is ever a good reason to rape someone. In addtion to me getting punished, arrested, ect.. It would have been a total betrayial of trust between us.


----------



## Hijinks (Jul 5, 2005)

> Show me where I said she has to give up all her friends. I NEVER said that. Stop putting words in my mouth and speaking for me. I said I don't like large social gatherings, I don't want to be dragged to a large party with people I'm not interested in all the time. Small soical things are fine.




THIS is where I got that impression:



> I will not lie and say I like something/ someone when I don't. I won't pretend to be socailable at a party when all I really want to do is go home and not have to put up with peoples stupid. petty talk. One of my old GF's loved large get togethers. I hated them. I would just sit in a corner and watch. My GF would get mad at me for not getting to know people. I would say "why? I don't want anything to do with these people, this is a waste of time. You know I don't like these kind of things." this was before I was diaganosed with AS. I'm not going to pretend to be someone I'm not, for anyone.




Back on page 2.

If that's not what you meant, maybe you should say what you mean?  Because nowhere in the above quote does it say "small social gatherings are fine."  Here you're saying you don't want to get to know people; how were we supposed to deduce that you're willing to get to know people in "small social gatherings" ?

Before you jump all over me, KenM, perhaps go back and read the things you've written.  Could we have possibly misunderstood them?  Maybe?  Hmm?

All you are doing is attacking others, most of whom have not attacked you as you keep saying we are.  I did not intend to attack you; I've been trying to get folks to not get so mad at you.  But since you obviously don't need/want that help, good luck to you.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 5, 2005)

Kenm said:
			
		

> B: Excuse me for not raping someone and geting arrested. So if you were in my situation, you would have raped her and gone to jail? What a nice guy you are.




Man...I've been away for awhile now, and when I left, Ken was missing the point in "sad and pathetic" ways.

In my absence he has clearly gradutated to missing points in an "unnerving and creepy" way.

Ken, the fact that you read _that_ into Spider's comment is truly, truly sick man. You've mentioned getting therapy soon. That's good.

Mention that your "Fear of Reprisal" is what keeps you away from rape. The Therapist needs to hear that sooner rather than later.  

*Spider*. Go register at Nutkinland, you are a hero there currently


----------



## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

I read Spiders comment as it was OK to rape someone. because I metioned fear of punishment INSTEAD of saying: "I did not want to betray what we had", equally important, not to mention that raping someone is just plain wrong, you think I'm screwed up.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I read Spiders comment as it was OK to rape someone.




Yeah, I got that.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> A: If you pay for a nice $200.00 dinner, or pay $200.00/ hour for an escort, its still paying for sex, we all do it, this way is more direct.



Your ways is disrespectful, lazy, and instant gratification oriented. You'd rather blow $200 on an escort to definately get sex, or $200 on dinner and get hours of hot luvin'. Don't try coming across with the "all women are whores" line, it's a lot older than you, and when you get right down to it, so are guys.

What your way shows, and what your attitude shows, is that if she doesn't drop them panties when you walk in the room, she obviously doesn't appreciate you, so hell with her. Rather than work on it, work for it, and earn it, you'd rather buy it.



> B: Excuse me for not raping someone and geting arrested. So if you were in my situation, you would have raped her and gone to jail? What a nice guy you are.



HOw about because it's stealing? You've stolen something that belongs to her.



> C: Late in this thread, i said I would get help.



Sarcastically and from up on the cross. Get down, someone else needs the wood.



> D: This goes with C



And take off the crown, those thorns are an endangered species.



> E: As oppossed to not doing anything to try to meet people, I feel that someone like me is doing something.



An online ad? Puh-lease. I could write an online ad where I'm a mixture of Adonis and a hunchback. Want risky? Go to a nightclub.

Someone like you? That's not trying, is it? If you can argue, bicker, rationalize and dither here on ENWorld, that has an average 1000 visitors at any given moment, you can go to a library or club.



> F: Working on it.



OK, good.



> G: I blame God for everything, the good as well as the bad.



Try putting the blame where some of it belongs. You. I sincerly doubt that God is walking along behind you, dressed in a Nazi outfit and speaking in a B-Movie accent, ordering you to do things.

Quit blaming other forces, and accept responsibility for your actions.



> H: So I will allow it to happen again and be screwed over again? I have too much respect for myself for that. I won't let people use me as a doormat.



There's a difference between a doormat and a jackass. You come across as a jackass. A judgemental one at that who has decided that they must get even for every little thing and is incapable of forgiveness. My retarded nephew can forgive people. And he's full blown, completely, wear a brain bucket retarded. He can't add 2+2 and get a number half of the time, but he can forgive you when you step on his foot or can't take him to the park.

You know, later, when I have time, if I have the inclination, I can let you know a few easy steps for joining a society that is completely alien to you, one that you cannot understand and have no common ground with.

Or I can just say the hell with it, you'll blow off any advice given, and play with my kids outside.


----------



## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Your ways is disrespectful, lazy, and instant gratification oriented. You'd rather blow $200 on an escort to definately get sex, or $200 on dinner and get hours of hot luvin'. Don't try coming across with the "all women are whores" line, it's a lot older than you, and when you get right down to it, so are guys.
> 
> What your way shows, and what your attitude shows, is that if she doesn't drop them panties when you walk in the room, she obviously doesn't appreciate you, so hell with her. Rather than work on it, work for it, and earn it, you'd rather buy it.




  IMO it is not disrespectful when it is two adults coming to a mutally satisfing agreement. And excuse me if I'm more then a little sexually frustrated after years of "Ken, you are a nice guy, but I just want to be FRIENDS." So we stay friends, maybe something will devolop, we go out a few more times, She meets a bad boy and then moves in with him a week later.  I never hear from her again. Excuse me for beung a little frustrated in this area when all my other friends have someone.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> IMO it is not disrespectful when it is two adults coming to a mutally satisfing agreement. And excuse me if I'm more then a little sexually frustrated after years of "Ken, you are a nice guy, but I just want to be FRIENDS." So we stay friends, maybe something will devolop, we go out a few more times, She meets a bad boy and then moves in with him a week later.  I never hear from her again. Excuse me for beung a little frustrated in this area when all my other friends have someone.




I _love_ being that bad-boy


----------



## Obryn (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> IMO it is not disrespectful when it is two adults coming to a mutally satisfing agreement. And excuse me if I'm more then a little sexually frustrated after years of "Ken, you are a nice guy, but I just want to be FRIENDS." So we stay friends, maybe something will devolop, we go out a few more times, She meets a bad boy and then moves in with him a week later.  I never hear from her again. Excuse me for beung a little frustrated in this area when all my other friends have someone.



Hey, I got no problem with the escort service thing.  More power to you.  Never used one myself, but it's all good if it floats your boat.

I _do_ have a problem when you insinuate that buying dinner for a girlfriend or date is the same as paying for an escort service.  That's just plain creepy; that's not the way the "transaction" works.  It's the kind of thing comedians say to be funny, or guys say to be ironic.  It's not the kind of thing you should take seriously, Ken.

The reason you get the "let's be friends" treatment is that you put yourself there.  You put yourself there by either not living up to another person's expectations (yes, they have them too), or making it clear that a relationship with you would be frustrating (it's tough to feel comfortable when the other person hates spending time with your friends and has unrealistic expectations).

-O


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 5, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> IMO it is not disrespectful when it is two adults coming to a mutally satisfing agreement.



It is when you try playing the "All women are whores" card, and play it badly at that.

You are equating a woman who stayed a virgin till she was married, was romanced by her husband, and enjoyed a long engagement with a $200/hr hooker.

THAT'S disrepectful.



> And excuse me if I'm more then a little sexually frustrated after years of "Ken, you are a nice guy, but I just want to be FRIENDS."



What, are there only 3 or four women where you live?



> So we stay friends, maybe something will devolop, we go out a few more times, She meets a bad boy and then moves in with him a week later.  I never hear from her again. Excuse me for beung a little frustrated in this area when all my other friends have someone.



Maybe the fault is with you, not with the women. You know, both TB and I have given advice on how to deal with that over and over and over. First lesson: NOT EVERY WOMAN IS SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO YOU.

Following that is: Please bathe. Please listen to other people. Please be considerate.

Those are the baby steps.

Oh, and I'm the guy that nailed her in the bathroom in the club, then never called her again.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 5, 2005)

> you pay for a nice $200.00 dinner, or pay $200.00/ hour for an escort, its still paying for sex, we all do it, this way is more direct.




Acutally, were I to pay $200 for a dinner (and WOW, would I be phat rollin' were THAT to happen!), I'd be doing it mostly to have a conversation and maybe impress her by showing what is possible with me. Sex is nice, but it's not all there is in a relationship. I do think you know that.   



> I blame God for everything, the good as well as the bad.




Fair enough, but God Helps Those Who Help Themselves, right? I mean, unless going to the doctor is a sin because it's thwarting God's Plan to have you sick. You can blame God all you want, but that doesn't relieve you of the responsibility of handling the situation as it exists right now in front of you.

You mentioned that you were in the process of helping yourself, and that deserves a pat on the back, if you're really and truly committed to it. That means you've probably recieved something useful out of this thread, and all that's left in this thread are the jerks to get in their bites. It's the internet, that's the way these things sometimes roll. 

If you're well and truly comitted to it, I'd suggest stepping away from EN world, getting the yellow pages, and doin' it. Now. Or tomorrow. ASAP.



> So I will allow it to happen again and be screwed over again? I have too much respect for myself for that. I won't let people use me as a doormat.




You will be screwed over again regardless. A doormat is someone who is constantly, repeatedly, over-and-over again used. You don't sound like the kind of person who would let yourself do that, but you've come out at the other extreme. As the Buddha says, balance in all things, seek the middle path, and put a balance between not being uptight (e.g.: being used a little bit) and not being used (e.g.: being uptight a little bit).


----------



## Trainz (Jul 5, 2005)

*sigh*

Ok, I just GOT to reply to this. I didn't want to get involved, but...



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> A: If you pay for a nice $200.00 dinner, or pay $200.00/ hour for an escort, its still paying for sex, we all do it, this way is more direct.




The whore will have sex with ANYONE for $200.00. The dame will NOT have dinner with anyone, only with someone she is interested with. AND will stick around if she likes you, dinner or not.

Comparing all womenhood to whores is extremely insulting. Then you wonder why people "attack" you. You're the one throwing stones dude.

And the peeps are STILL trying to help you out, after your despicable behaviour. I'm impressed with the ENworlders at large, they truly are a nice and caring bunch.

Way more than you deserve.



> B: Excuse me for not raping someone and geting arrested. So if you were in my situation, you would have raped her and gone to jail? What a nice guy you are.




Going to jail or not shouldn't be in the equation man. Is that the only thing that keeps you from raping girls ?



> C: Late in this thread, i said I would get help.




And yet, you come back with your antics. All that needed to be said WAS said. If you were genuine about your intent, you wouldn't come back for more.

Admit it, you like the attention.



> H: So I will allow it to happen again and be screwed over again? _I have too much respect for myself for that_. I won't let people use me as a doormat.




You obviously don't care about respect from others, so self-respect is the only kind you'll ever get.

Good luck.


----------



## KenM (Jul 5, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> It is when you try playing the "All women are whores" card, and play it badly at that.
> 
> You are equating a woman who stayed a virgin till she was married, was romanced by her husband, and enjoyed a long engagement with a $200/hr hooker.
> 
> THAT'S disrepectful.




  Show me where I used the words: "all women are whores". Again, someone is putting words in my mouth and speaking for me.  I never comapred one women to another. I'm not saying all women go and work for an escort service. I never said, all women are like that. All I meant is men, in the cortship game, spend money when they take someone out. I just spent it so it was more direct. I did not mean that all women would sleep with someone if they took them out to dinner.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Show me where I used the words: "all women are whores". Again, someone is putting words in my mouth and speaking for me.




No Ken, they are taking meaning from what you say. It's called communication and judging by the number of "Show me where I said (X)" comments from you--followed by people showing you--you really, really suck at it.

Fo the record, it is post #358 and it goes like this..."A: If you pay for a nice $200.00 dinner, or pay $200.00/ hour for an escort, its still paying for sex, we all do it, this way is more direct."



			
				Kenm said:
			
		

> I never comapred one women to another. I'm not saying all women go and work for an escort service. I never said, all women are like that. All I meant is men, in the cortship game, spend money when they take someone out. I just spent it so it was more direct. I did not mean that all women would sleep with someone if they took them out to dinner.




And looky there! Despite asking to be shown "where you said" all women are whores, you know *exactly* the comment people are talking about.

Quit being so disingenuous, it's not credible,.

Own up to the crap you say Ken. You are looking more and more scary, childish and retarded with every passing moment.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 6, 2005)

> Show me where I used the words: "all women are whores". Again, someone is putting words in my mouth and speaking for me. I never comapred one women to another. I'm not saying all women go and work for an escort service. I never said, all women are like that. All I meant is men, in the cortship game, spend money when they take someone out. I just spent it so it was more direct. I did not mean that all women would sleep with someone if they took them out to dinner.



OK, I'll show you.



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> A: If you pay for a nice $200.00 dinner, or pay $200.00/ hour for an escort, its still paying for sex, we all do it, this way is more direct.




Yes, you did. You know it, I know it, nice try on weaselling out of it.

"Men, in the cortship game, spend money when they take someone out. I just spent it so it was more direct."

Nice try, but you are a no-go at this station.

I didn't put a single word into your mouth. You did. Take responsibility for once, man. You're 37 years old, not 5.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 6, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> OK, I'll show you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




He's about to ignore your entire post except to point out that you are calling a handicapped guy a "weasel"

Or am I putting words inyour mouth Ken??? :\


----------



## KenM (Jul 6, 2005)

This is the last time I ask for advice. Thank you all for your support filled thoughts and well wishes. Turns out I'm right, if you don't do what people ask, those people are labeled freaks and outcasts. Because I give you reasons for not wanting to try some of these things, you all say " YOU MUST DO THIS TO FIT IN" and "I DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENED OR HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT IT, YOU MUST DO WHAT WE SAY"  
And you wonder why I am the way I am.  I did make an apointment with someone new. I printed this thread out to show my new doctor. Thank you for proving me right. I'm done now.


----------



## Nifft (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> And you wonder why I am the way I am.  I did make an apointment with someone new. I printed this thread out to show my new doctor. Thank you for proving me right. I'm done now.




This will solve at least one of your problems -- you won't have a spare $200 to waste on chicks! 

Ah, the lucky doctor, having so much juicy stuff to read...

 -- N


----------



## Warrior Poet (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM,

It sounds to me like you’ve been hurt by a number of things over the years:  hurt by the opposite sex (girlfriends who leave, women who give you mixed signals), hurt by social situations (large groups or gatherings in which you feel uncomfortable, social obligations you were dragged to that you didn’t like), hurt by communication (times you perceived something was said but not held to, or not followed through, or misrepresented), hurt by the public (on a forum, for instance, where the discussion grew heated and you found yourself on the defensive), hurt by a parent figure, and hurt by the larger world in general (when it eluded your perception or exhibited a complexity not accounted for or encompassed by categorization).  I think you’ve been hurt a lot, which is why you mentioned wanting to “get even.”

That’s why I would point you back to everything Teflon Billy has said, as well as the very poignant post by barsoomcore, and the comments of just about everybody else in the thread.  There is such eminent wisdom there to be gleaned.

Why?

Because everyone of those people who offered that wisdom, has been hurt, too.  Some of them with such intensity it’s amazing they survived.  But they did, and they went one better than that.  They’ve thrived.  And they know what they’re talking about.

Maybe they haven’t gotten the sprinkler system installed like they wanted to yet, or finally got that 1966 Shelby Ford Cobra they always had their eye on fixing up, or maybe their children haven’t grown up with an interest in the sousaphone like they always hoped, or maybe they’re not living in the city they always dreamed of, but they’re thriving nonetheless, because every day they risk getting hurt, and every day they keep going to try and make it better.

NOT because they’re ever going to escape all hurt.  No one ever escapes that, until Atropos cuts the thread.  Everyone gets hurt, often, and for no good reason.  That’s life.  But they keep striving because being human means striving anyway in spite of that.  Not to be the best, or fastest, or coolest, or funniest, but striving to be ALIVE.  Along the way you can shoot for the best, or fastest, or coolest, or funniest, but you have to live in order to do those things.

They’re not offering this advice to point out they got hurt and how it was worse than you.  They’re offering the advice to point out they got hurt and they’re STILL GOING, still trying to get up in the morning and figure this thing out, even when, and perhaps especially when, you can’t figure anything out!  And along the way, you just might figure something out!  You might figure out that, for many of the hurts, you, YOU, KenM, allow yourself to be hurt, and you can allow yourself to be happy.

The difference is, when others go to someone for help, they try to act on that help to keep moving.  Humans are like some species of shark:  they have to keep swimming or they die (note I said some, ‘cause there’s always someone who shows up and says, “Not all sharks have to keep moving to live.”  Yes.  I know.  You’re very clever.  Shut up and embrace the analogy.  Don’t pay attention to the finger, or you’ll miss the beauty of the moon).  So when someone gives them the bad news, like “You may have to change your behavior, or your perception,” they say, “Damn, that hurts, but I’ll try it and who knows.”  And it often turns out that it’s not bad news, it’s really good news, and suddenly, the next thing you know, you’re talking to (lots of different, interesting, complex) women, or improving your education, or helping someone else out, or eating healthier, or noticing details in local flora and fauna you never noticed before, or recognizing that something amazing was in front of you the whole time.  This is something that the right professional therapist can help you achieve.

So barsoomcore’s right (pay attention to him and Teflon Billy and Warlord Ralts and some of the others here.  They are seriously wise dudes).  You can’t exist without pain at some point, and, frankly, without pain at many points.  So you might as well walk out the door and find out what’s waiting.

Some of it will hurt like hell.  And some of it will make you stand there and shake your fist at the heavens and say “Send another.”  Life’s not about getting even.  It’s about living until it’s time to die.  Along the way you’ll garner enough scars to realize why living is so effen great.  Not because we’re masochists, not because we “win,” not because we get “revenge,” but because you’ll look back and be stunned by how amazing it is, and turn back around and get ready to be stunned by it some more tomorrow.

Women send mixed signals because some of them are deceptive, some are confused, some are flighty, some are playful, some are caring, some are distracted, some are uncertain, some are reflective, some are private, some are giddy, and some are all of those within the course of a day.  In other words, human.  We’re all flawed, man, and so you have to laugh at yourself at some point and say, “Wow, she made a fool out of me.  How silly!  What the heck, I’ll try to talk to a different woman, and see what happens then!”  Or say to yourself, “Wow, my perception of that situation wasn’t accurate, and she wasn’t deceiving me in order to prove how much she hates me and therefore reinforce my deeply ingrained sense of how the world is out to do me wrong.  In fact, she wasn’t deceiving me at all!  Actually, she’s pretty cool and has a brain of her own and desires, some of which may intersect with mine, some of which don’t, and that makes here REALLY INTERESTING, and I’d like to know more about her, like what kind of food she likes, and does she paint, and has she ever flown a glider, and what she thinks needs to be done about the sad state of FM radio in this country.”

Don’t have any expectations.  Maybe the different woman will “make a fool out of you,” or maybe not.  That’s the shot you take, that’s the risk of getting hurt.  The best women will be the one’s that can laugh at themselves AND YOU right alongside you.

You ever wonder why soldiers have such an intense sense of humor?  Because they’re in the !  You have to laugh, or you go bananas!  Welcome to life.  It’s hell.  Have fun.

Warrior Poet


----------



## nerfherder (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I did make an apointment with someone new.



That's great news.  Good luck and I hope it goes well for you.

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Warrior Poet (Jul 6, 2005)

Late again.

Man, I have got to learn to type faster.

KenM, good luck, and I hope your new appointment is the first step toward better things for you.  Seriously.

Warrior Poet


----------



## KenM (Jul 6, 2005)

Well said, WP. And for the record, its been 6 years since I used a escort.


----------



## Alan Shutko (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> A: If you pay for a nice $200.00 dinner, or pay $200.00/ hour for an escort, its still paying for sex, we all do it, this way is more direct.




No, with the former you also get a really nice dinner.  With good wine.  If you're going to get sex either way, treat yourself to the meal!


----------



## Obryn (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Show me where I used the words: "all women are whores". Again, someone is putting words in my mouth and speaking for me.  I never comapred one women to another. I'm not saying all women go and work for an escort service. I never said, all women are like that. All I meant is men, in the cortship game, spend money when they take someone out. I just spent it so it was more direct. I did not mean that all women would sleep with someone if they took them out to dinner.



What you said was....



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> If you pay for a nice $200.00 dinner, or pay $200.00/ hour for an escort, its still paying for sex, we all do it, this way is more direct.




You're _equating_ paying $200 for dinner with paying $200 for sex.  Basically, you're saying that buying dinner entitles you to certain expectations, such as possible sex in the future.  Rather than it being a pleasant way to spend time with someone you're interested in.

-O


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> This is the last time I ask for advice.



I knew this was coming. I really did. You get handed The Truth, some of it from on-high, and you freak out, throw down the toys and stomp out screaming "I'm never playing with any of you again!"

I will now mock and jeer. Since my sense of empathy and compassion are artificial, I can now give in to what I really want to say.


> Thank you all for your support filled thoughts and well wishes.



Thanks to those who felt sorry for me and validated my feelings. Those of you who presented contrary beliefs or expected something from me that a person with Apserger's Syndrome can't do, can all go to hell and eat monkey doodoo.



> Turns out I'm right,



And I'm God's Special Little Snowflake in my own world. How dare you try to disabuse me of that and tell me to get help. If I get help, I'll change, and I might not feel that everything is my fault, have to grow up, accept responsibility, and realize that the world does not revolve around me. Everyone who tried to get me to help myself are doody heads.



> if you don't do what people ask, those people are labeled freaks and outcasts.



Almost the truth.


> if you don't do what people *expect*, those people are labeled freaks and outcasts.



Fixed it for you. Was true back when they burned people at the stake for being different, true now. Welcome to life.


> Because I give you *excuses* for not wanting to try some of these things,



Fixed it.


> you all say " YOU MUST DO THIS TO FIT IN"



Your parents taught you that crapping your pants in the mall isn't a way to fit in. Does that mean that you should be allowed to drop trou and crap right on someone's living room floor? Congrats, you MUST do some things to fit in to certian circles of society. While wearing fangs, black clothing and calling yourself Baron Von Lousair will get you mocked and jeered in my circle, my habit of wearing comfortable clothing would get me mocked and jeered in a high class resteraunt.

Deal with it.



> and "I DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENED OR HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT IT, YOU MUST DO WHAT WE SAY"



Not quite. I told you to quit making goddamn excuses. Many people tried to show you that there is hope for you.

But you don't care, do you? Anything that threatens your self-percieved suffering, you immediately assume is an attack.


> And you wonder why I am the way I am.



I don't know why you are the way you are. I have a feeling you were spoiled and lazy as a child, but that's just my guesstimation based on this thread's data.



> I did make an apointment with someone new.



Good.


> I printed this thread out to show my new doctor.



Good. Show him. All of it. From your excuses, to your whining, to your martyrism, to you complaints that NOTHING will work. Editing to make yourself look better is lying by the way.



> Thank you for proving me right.



I don't know where you got that. Say, what color is the money in your world? Does is snow singing snowflakes that melt into delicious delicious frosting?



> I'm done now.



Sorry, but you aren't done till you're rotting in the grave. You may be done posting here, but you'll come back to see if any of the mean people got yelled at or banned. I know the type, attention is your currency, and you have for sale whatever acts will bring in that currency. I like feeding it to you because I hope that somewhere in you is enough of a person to want to change.

See, when it gets right down to it, I don't gain anything. I don't know you, will probably never meet you, and would be sorely tempted to grab you and shake you till either you woke up or got Shaken Baby Syndrome if I did meet you. My only reason for trying to help you is the fact that by helping you, I'm helping those who come into contact with you, and maybe you'll become happy and productive.

You may think you're done, but the things told to you, the ones you KNOW, deep inside, are right, will never leave your mind. You'll wake up, wondering if we were right. You'll act like a childish jackass, and hear us shaking our heads and telling you that you're being a jerk.

You have to live it, not me. All of it. Every last repercussion of your actions, and all of your twisting and blame pointing and excuses won't change the fact that you know, when it comes right down to it, that YOU are to blame.

I don't have to live with your mistakes. I have to live with mine.

So you aren't done. Any more than I am.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> This is the last time I ask for advice. Thank you all for your support filled thoughts and well wishes. Turns out I'm right, if you don't do what people ask, those people are labeled freaks and outcasts. Because I give you reasons for not wanting to try some of these things, you all say " YOU MUST DO THIS TO FIT IN" and "I DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENED OR HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT IT, YOU MUST DO WHAT WE SAY"
> And you wonder why I am the way I am.  I did make an apointment with someone new. I printed this thread out to show my new doctor. Thank you for proving me right. I'm done now.




None of which adresses anything I said in my last post, nothing Ralts said in his, or anything at all that called your behavior into question.

Color. Me . Shocked.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Well said, WP. And for the record, its been 6 years since I used a escort.




Didn't you say you were done wit this thread?


----------



## reveal (Jul 6, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Didn't you say you were done wit this thread?




I think what he meant to say was "I'm done..........................now. No.....now. Now. Now, I meant now."


----------



## atra2 (Jul 6, 2005)

The thread is long and pretty rehashed, so I'm going to write in general here:

Speaking as someone who, whether or not I have AS, it seems like it sometimes,
it is possible to change.

And I've had it worse than the OP: I so had trouble making friends in public
school, I went from roughly 5th grade until 10th grade without any.

I kept trying, but my foot kept appearing in my mouth.

As most people do, I considered myself sane, and anyone who thought differently
to be insane. You get over that with time and maturity, but it also requires social
interaction.

My wife and I had a lot of relational pains while dating because I had never tried to
form a social (non-romantic) relationship with a female in a group setting. (not counting
family in my household, and I was an only child)

But, given time, and going to these social events, being willing to meet people even if
she had to hold my hand to do so, I did my best to learn what NEVER came natural to
me: just talking about whatever.

We met when I was 30, and with willingness to try (plus accepting Jesus as Savior along
the way), we were married 2 years later. (dated 10 months, engaged for 14!) And now
I'm 34.

And still learning.

I try to remember all the little rules of social interaction. I am helped, however, by the
fact that I'm very verbal. Most men are not.

The hardest thing for me to eventually accept was that I was not in control of human
interactions the way I control of a video game, computer program, etc.

When my wife and I met, I was doing tabletop RPGs very often (instead of a mix of
tabletop and computer games now) with various groups, so I had a pool of around 30
people to observe (many of them married males with spouses who did not game) and
occasionally ask questions of.

Much like gaming, the more exposure you have to anything that you can get better at,
the more and faster you learn.

I don't have a magic formula for the original poster, but a good first step would be to
expand the number of people you deal with on a regular basis, and spread out among
multiple hobbies you enjoy.

For example, if I had, in my younger years, tried to establish comic book friends,
sports friends, TV friends, etc. in addition to gaming friends, I might have progressed
faster.

As it was, I avoided EVERYONE who wasn't a gamer. Wow. The reason that was a big
mistake, is because sometimes the gamer friends you want to meet might live across
town, go to a different school in the same town, etc. but if you don't meet their
cousin who lives near you, or goes to your school, you'll never meet them.

However things go with the woman you had the phone call with, make it a goal to put
on the Hat of Optimism and Patience +5, and do the following:

1) list all your hobbies. (write, type, whatever)

2) research (you have the internet, plus bulletin boards at stores, phone books, word of
mouth, ask your existing friends, etc.) where groups of people meet to talk about
the stuff you're interested in.

3) go to those places and try to establish new, additional relationships with
PEOPLE YOU HAVE NEVER MET.

   These aren't small-talkers, these are, or at least some of them are, gung-ho hobbyists
in at least ONE of your several hobbies. (I speak from experience; I had several, not many,
hobbies, and pretty much the same ones from age 9 to 34 now.)

   So, you have a REASON for the relationship: it's fun to do a hobby with a friend, and
each of you probably has something to teach the other in this one hobby.

   Even if you are the smarter/more knowledgeable, be willing to BE THE MENTOR.

   Not a mentor about life, necessarily, but about your hobby in particular. With loving
care, help them in any area *they ask for your help in*. Be willing, and offer, to talk
about any aspect of the hobby with them.

   Attend the group functions regarding that hobby, and hang around the people who
are talking "shop." That's a start, to get you used to hanging around new people and
talking with them, even though the ultimate goal is for you to be comfortable around
small talk, though you may not participate yourself.

   That is, and I speak from experience, knowing this is hard: *stop being so judgmental*!

   That's still my knee-jerk response, especially if I'm tired, hungry, whatever, and it's
not the right one.

   So what do you do once you have these additional relationships, and are meeting or
talking with these people on at least a weekly or monthly basis, if not more often?

   You let the conversation go where it goes, not where you force it to.

   People are often hurting because of a recent happening to a family member or friend,
and desperately want someone they trust to share it with, who can listen to them,
understand that they hurt, even if the listener doesn't know why, and just be there
as a person to talk to.

   And, if you help someone through a difficult situation, using your God-given talents,
(and AS gives you a heaping load of logic/problem-solving talent, in general) they may
be able to help you when you are hurting.

   One of the biggest lies I believed, that I always told myself, was that "people who aren't
into my hobbies, or satisfy my needs, are completely worthless."

   That's not true, even though I spent 30 of my 34 years believing it.

   To reply to a point in the OP's original post:

   God did not screw you by making you the way you are.

   He just didn't make an army of clones, all exactly alike, performing like robots.

   The. Glass. Is. Half. FULL.

   Stop focusing on how other people come up short to your standards, and start
focusing on how you can help them.

   Literally, almost all my troubles in life come from focusing on me to excess. You have
to focus some on you. Eat. Sleep. Breathe. Buy games. Whatever.

   But you don't need to do that all the time.

   Try being an observer, a listener.

   Try honoring other people, and treating them, BETTER than you treat yourself.

   Pick up the tab when having lunch with a friend, without being asked, and without
asking to be paid back. "Your money's no good here buddy, enjoy."

   Stop giving with the expectation that everything is a business transaction, and that
you *have to* get something back in return.

   Also, ignore any other poster on this thread who pretends they are just telling you
the truth about your posts here, when they are not only doing that (cause you have some
goofs) but they are *adding unnecessary insults* to their comments.

   Speaking from experience, again: you *may* have some childlike behaviors. I know I
do, still. That does not mean you are 100% childish.

   You may not like having your opinions pointed out to you for what they are, but that
does not mean your belief system is beyond repair, just that you should be willing to
self-examine your own posts, now, after the fact, and ask yourself "did I really
communicate the best way I could? Did I insult a certain group of people because I was
not careful with my writing?"

   One thing that's always been important to me is people getting a fair shake.
Everyone deserves a second chance, even if that chance must come with supervision.
(such as high-end crimes like murder, etc.)

   So, give yourself a second chance: do you really think you can't change, or have you
just fooled yourself into thinking that's the case?

   And while I know posters of 5,000 different faiths/religions will immediately post to
say that "it's not right" that I promote one faith above all others, that won't stop me
from saying it:

   Every part of my life, past, present, and future, I owe to God, and the sacrifice his
Son, Jesus Christ, made for my Salvation, and everyone else's Salvation.

   He's the one who made it possible for me to step out of my hermit cave, where, hurt
many times by human behaviors I could not comprehend (possibly due to AS), I was
hiding for fear of being hurt again.

   Whatever beliefs and behaviors are holding you back from at least talking with people
for a few minutes at a time, even if they have nothing to offer you right then and there,
let those beliefs and behaviors go.

   You have far more to gain by establishing large numbers of healthy relationships, ranging
from close friendships to casual acquaintances, than you do by continuing to hide out.

   Love your neighbor. Whatever skills you have, go and share them; fix computers,
help them touch up their resume, explain math to them, share a time when you were hurt
in a similar way to them, and how you came through that, and who helped you to do it.

   Hang out with positive people more for a while. Get used to being positive yourself,
so that when you hang out with people you know to be negative, you lift them up, instead
of them bringing you down.

   If you hang out with people who are divorced, they will have a lot less to tell you about
having a good relationship with a woman, than a married couple of 25+ years, who still
treat each other with love and affection.

   Whether or not you seek out Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you'll still
find great improvement in your life just from getting to know your neighbors, fellow
hobbyists, etc.

   Oh yes, and travel! Go to new cities and try out local restaurants.

   Try driving to gaming conventions in other cities, or even nearby states.

   Above all, meet lots of people you don't know, and often, and make friends where you
can, whether they're close enough to drive to visit, or far enough you need to email, etc.

   Broaden your positive experiences.

   The boards were not a bad place for you to start, but they do lack the human
interaction of a face-to-face meeting with someone who cares about you, is not
trying to use you or your pain, and wants to have a positive impact in your life.

   Change can be difficult, but if the final result is better than what you had before,
you should go through with it.

   And by better, I mean you are a better person for it, not that you got some material
gain out of it, or manipulated someone else. Above all, you should have ended up helping
others in the process of your own change.

   Long and rambling, but please think about it, instead of hitting the Reply button.

   In fact, maybe people are best off if they don't reply to this post, and just read it
and think about it.

   We already have 10 pages of argument and name-calling, don't we?


----------



## Hijinks (Jul 6, 2005)

Preach on, Warlord Ralts! Preach on!



> Editing to make yourself look better is lying by the way.




Thanks for the giggle 

atra2:  I think what you said was well thought-out and meaningful, and KenM will do well to listen (but he won't).  Don't assume no one wants to hear your view, just because you quote Jesus.  I'm an aetheist, but your post didn't bother me in the slightest, because you, like everynoe else on this thread, are trying to help KenM, whether he realizes it or not.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 6, 2005)

atra2 said:
			
		

> I try to remember all the little rules of social interaction. I am helped, however, by the fact that I'm very verbal. Most men are not.
> 
> The hardest thing for me to eventually accept was that I was not in control of human
> interactions the way I control of a video game, computer program, etc.
> ...



Quoted for DA TROOTH!


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Because I give you reasons for not wanting to try some of these things, you all say " YOU MUST DO THIS TO FIT IN"




Well, if you don't do those things which are cultural norms, then you won't fit in. You don't _have_ to do them, but you won't get the results you desire if you don't. You can try to reason around that fact all you'd like, and provide any number of reasons why you don't want to do any given thing, but all the reasoning in the world won't change that you have to abide by cultural norms to fit into the culture. I think people keep repeating this advice because you still seem to want to know what can be done to improve your lot. If this isn't so, you could simply ask for the thread to be closed.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 6, 2005)

Never mind Colonel, he's done with this thread.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 6, 2005)

> This is the last time I ask for advice. Thank you all for your support filled thoughts and well wishes. Turns out I'm right, if you don't do what people ask, those people are labeled freaks and outcasts.




Well, more, they're labeled selfish and cruel, which makes them outcasts because who wants to be around someone who is only interested in doing what they want themselves?



> Because I give you reasons for not wanting to try some of these things, you all say " YOU MUST DO THIS TO FIT IN" and "I DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENED OR HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT IT, YOU MUST DO WHAT WE SAY"




We don't tell you those things because you give us reasons, we tell you those things because you have the power to control your own actions. The reasons only matter to help you solve the actions. The ACTIONS, what you DO, that is what matters. And what you've DONE is tell 99% of humanity that they aren't worthy of your time because they lie. You do not HAVE to react to things in one way. You have freedom of choice. You are not a mechanism, you are a human being, and you can choose to be a jerk to the people who lie to you or you can choose to not be a jerk to those people, whatever your wants and desires truly are, you can choose in a way which does not act solely from them.



> And you wonder why I am the way I am. I did make an apointment with someone new. I printed this thread out to show my new doctor. Thank you for proving me right. I'm done now.




For the most part, we don't wonder why. The reasons, again, aren't what matters to us, the general uncaring public. What matters is what you do. 

What you've done is get help, and take an active hand in showing some of the problems. This is good. This is working on it. This shows that you have the ability to take control of yourself, rather than letting your instincts and emotions dictate your life to you.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Ok, so I was talking with this girl I meeet though a personal service. We have not meet, just talked on the phone. SHE asks if I wanted to meet her tonight for dinner. I said sure. So at my lunch hour today, I call her today on my lunch hour to take care of the details, ect.. Then she says she can't meet because she has to make plans with her family for the holiday weekend.  Why ask me to dinner and then back off all of sudden? I'm sick and tired of getting mixed signals from women.  "Ken, i know I kissed you on the mouth, but I did not mean it THAT way." and " I know I'm sleeping right against you in my panites and your tshirt, but we are just friends."  Why can't women be more straghtforward?




It appears you haven't heard of the Ladder Theory.

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html


----------



## Warrior Poet (Jul 6, 2005)

Something else:  one of the most important things I think you can do as a person is participate in something that is bigger than you, and by that I mean more significant.

There's a great photograph I saw in the paper today, a photograph of some rocket scientists.  Something really cool recently happened:  we (humans) managed to get a research rocket to slam full-on into a comet, way out yonder somewhere (yonder:  it's a technical term).  This is going to allow the scientists to glean all sorts of information and learn more about comets and rocketry and guidance systems and distance and all sorts of other stuff that's way, way over my head (but way, way cool).

So, there's a photograph of the scientists monitoring the computers as the rocket hits.  They're in the control room, and they're on their feet, fists raised in the air, and cheering grins of triumph on their face.  There's one guy in particular who looks really ALIVE!  His hands are held before him and his face is lit up and he looks celebratory and chubby and elated and successful and positive.  Why?  Because this whole thing of getting the rocket to hit the comet is his doing?  No way.  He's not even named in the photograph caption.  He's not even in as much focus as the other scientist in the foreground.  But he's not thinking about himself at that moment, or about winning the lotto later, or whether the Twins will hold it together long enough to make the post season, or if he should have pork chops or dolmades for dinner tonight.  He's celebrating this really, really cool thing that happened, that involved way, WAY more people than himself, but which he got to be a part of, a little part, just enough, but it's important and it's BIGGER THAN HIMSELF.  This doesn't make him feel somehow discarded by the world or worthless or ignored.  There's plenty of other things in the world that will do that to him, most of them on I-85 on the drive home later.  No, it makes him feel terrific because he helped, and it achieved something (even something small like hitting a comet with a rocket, and it's still small, even if it's cool, and that's why the universe is so cool, 'cause it puts everything into perspective).

BUT, he wouldn't have been able to participate in something bigger than himself, and feel good about being a participant (which is a good feeling, and doesn't mean giving up your individuality), if he didn't "participate" with the other scientists, and that doesn't just mean getting lift-off and gravitational escape vectors figured out, it means showering, and being able to communicate with others, frequently about topics that are challenging because they don't necessarily mesh with his view of the world, and it means being able to put his own expectations aside sometimes, so the project lead can make sure everything stays on task, and it means he probably won't live to be the person who figures out that comet ice cures cancer.  But the scientists that figure out comet ice cures cancer (or whatever) couldn't have done it without that guy, who had to make some decisions about his interactions with others in order to contribute something to the experience here on ol' Number 3, Solar System, local.

Warrior Poet


----------



## The Traveler (Jul 6, 2005)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> It appears you haven't heard of the Ladder Theory.
> 
> http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html



Good God, Psionicist, don't screw him up worse.


----------



## DarrenGMiller (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Thank you for proving me right. I'm done now.




Aah... the wonderful self-fulfilling prophecy.  Maybe that is why the first doctor wouldn't help in the first place.  It is difficult to help someone who thinks they have it all figured out.

DM


----------



## Orblivia (Jul 6, 2005)

I cast the gay on this thread.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Jul 6, 2005)

Orblivia said:
			
		

> I cast the gay on this thread.



Oh great, now you're callling him gay. That's hate speech, doncha know?

Oh well, now at least we'll get at least 4 pages of him telling us that's it not his repressed homosexuality that makes it difficult for him to operate in a social setting. He's not really thinking about what's behind other men's zippers at the social gathering that makes it so hard for him to speak.

Now you've gone and done it.

Nice job.


----------



## The Shaman (Jul 6, 2005)

Orblivia said:
			
		

> I cast the gay on this thread.



FINALLY the true voice of reason appears!

Go *Orblivia*!


----------



## Starman (Jul 6, 2005)

Am I the only one that feels better about themself after reading this thread?

Starman


----------



## the Jester (Jul 6, 2005)

Ken, ignore the negative comments and focus on the advice.  The fact that you're taking steps (i.e. seeing a new therapist) is great.  

You are missing a lot of good advice that's hidden in the ranting.  TB and WR and all the others in this thread are trying to help you in their own way.  Although I agree with you that you don't need to change in ways that you do not want to in order to have a relationship (i.e. being a liar or doormat), I do think that you need to try to look at other peoples' perspectives a little more.  Try to put yourself in their shoes, so to speak, and remember that there is sometimes more to something (or someone) than it at first appears.

Don't know if you're still reading here; either way, I wish you luck.  I hope the new therapist can help you find what you're looking for.


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## Torx (Jul 6, 2005)

Wow, after being fascinated for hours reading this thread, I must admit I'm tempted to delurk and reply.

I think I'll restate the core of the message here: Changing is hard and painful, but worth it.  

However, change cannot occur if one is not even open to it.  Ken, I implore you to open your mind to what these wise, caring people are saying.  Many of them have faced hardships similar to yours, others altogether different hardships, but they have all learned as a result.  I beg of you to do the same.

Learn from your mistakes and grow from them.  Once again, change is difficult, but worth it.  I am pleased to read that you're seeking counseling, which is almost always a great first step.  The second, very important step, is to heed the advice of your counselor.  Try not to chalk up their advice as misunderstanding you or not getting you.  He or she very likely will have an excellent grasp of what is going on in your noggin.

Embrace change, as painful as it is.  You will be a better man as a result, girlfriend or not.


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## jdavis (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> This is the last time I ask for advice. Thank you all for your support filled thoughts and well wishes. Turns out I'm right, if you don't do what people ask, those people are labeled freaks and outcasts. Because I give you reasons for not wanting to try some of these things, you all say " YOU MUST DO THIS TO FIT IN" and "I DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENED OR HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT IT, YOU MUST DO WHAT WE SAY"
> And you wonder why I am the way I am.  I did make an apointment with someone new. I printed this thread out to show my new doctor. Thank you for proving me right. I'm done now.



This made me laugh. Outcast and loner might of worked for James Dean but maybe being a outcast and a loner is why you are so darn lonely? Either way it's all about you, it's your problems and your responsibility to deal with them and if you don't it's your fault when things don't go your way. The question you should be asking yourself is "why don't women like me" because that's where this whole thread at least got started. It's not about being a conformist it's about why are you scaring people away, your the one with the problems not them. You want the answers look inside yourself.

Good grief this was a train wreck, if your life goes anything like this thread went then you do have problems to deal with, good luck.


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## Turanil (Jul 6, 2005)

Rape, whores, gay insults, etc. 

*What are doing the mods?!*

Can I say something about Bush?


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 6, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I do take risks, why do you think I have an online personal ad up. But when I find out someone lies to me, no matter how small, I feel like that person is saying "you are not good enough to be told how I really feel or whats really going on, so screw him." So when I find out about the lie, I end it with them. Even though I tell people upfront to be honest with me.
> I have met a few people though the personal ad, and for whatever reason it does not work out, the "spark" just was not there or whatever. I always say that it was fun meeting them and getting to know them a little, and wish them luck in the future. They were honest with me.
> I never blamed another person for my AS, I blamed God a few posts back. I blame some people for continuing to be deceptive with me even after I tell them upfront I need total honesty.





Putting up a personal ad on the 'net is a big risk. 

People tell little "white lies" all the time. Even with your mental condition, you should try to get past the "lie" and let the small ones slide. It's gonna be hard, knowing that you take things literally due to AS, but it's a big step you'll have to take to overcome it's shortcoming and be able to reach out to people. This is just part of human nature.  

And blaming God won't help you at all. He did this for a reason; but He never does anything we can't handle. And if you feel you can't handle this on your own, He's just a prayer away. And He'll help you with your problems. I have a friend of mine who I've been trying to tell him that to... (makes me wonder if _he_ has a touch of AS....   ). It's more the devil who's making you feel like it's all either your fault, God's fault or all the women who don't "live up to your expectations" fault. Using advice my aunt gave for the friend: "You've got to love YOURSELF before you can love OTHERS". 

And stuff my other friend, Richard, has told me (he'd sent this for my aunt who's recovering from a muscle illness but I think it applies here as well...   ) , "tell him that there are two emotions that live forever... Hope and Love. fear and hate are fleeting, and fade over time. but hope and love will always exist, even after the ones you've loved have passed out of your life. For hope lives because you look forward to seeing them again, down the road."


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## reveal (Jul 6, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Rape, whores, gay insults, etc.
> 
> *What are doing the mods?!*
> 
> Can I say something about Bush?




Everything's fair game except politics and religion.


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## Heretic Apostate (Jul 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Everything's fair game except politics and religion.




And sex and swearing.

Trust me on that...


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## DaveMage (Jul 6, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Can I say something about Bush?




Only if you're talking about a bush's relationship to trees & plants.


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## Michael Morris (Jul 6, 2005)

Ok, enough is enough is enough!

Tempers are flaring, nothing new has been said for 3 pages, and the only place this seems to be going is downhill.

Time out time, let it rest - and once Russ or Piratecat gets a chance to review this thread they'll make a decision whether or not to re-open it. 

In the meanwhile I'm going to look up Thomas Heretic and see if he's open to letting me write a "kick thread to nothingland" tool. This kind of dog-chases-tail head-bashing therapy is quite appropriate there.  Not here.


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## Darkness (Jul 6, 2005)

This thread is indeed done and will stay closed. Thank you, Michael.

Next time a thread turns bad, please make use of the Report Post function, everybody. Thanks.


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