# Converting monsters from Dragon magazine



## Shade (Jun 24, 2009)

Part Three. 

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


----------



## Leopold (Jun 24, 2009)

Whats first?


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2009)

*Dragon, Phase*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 6”/24” (MC: C)
HIT DICE: 3-5
% IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: F
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon; possible spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Phasing ability; see hidden/invisible objects
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
INTELLIGENCE: Average to very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic (neutral or good)
SIZE: S (3’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: IV to V/175 + 3/hp to 360 + 5/hp

The phase dragon can be found almost anywhere, although it prefers sparsely inhabited areas in and around forests. Its lair can be found in caves and in stout, hollow trees. Though of small size, a phase dragon is as greedy as any other dragon and covets precious metals, gems, and magic items.

This dragon’s phasing ability allows it to shift out of phase with its surroundings as a phase spider can; it uses this power when attacking or being attacked. The dragon will bring itself back into phase when it is ready to deliver a bite or breath weapon (it can see its surroundings even when out of phase). When out of phase, the dragon cannot be struck by normal weapons, but it can be seen and attacked by someone wearing armor of etherealness or using oil of etherealness; other ethereal beings can also attack it. A phase door spell will cause the dragon to remain in phase for seven rounds.

Because a phase dragon hates to fight, it will prefer to use its breath weapon first in an unfriendly encounter and then try to escape. The phase dragon can attack once per round with either a bite or by breathing a 10’ diameter cloud of white gas that causes all within it who fail a saving throw vs. breath weapon to become confused, as per the druid spell confusion.

A phase dragon is able to use magic, and if taught to do so (as 40% of them have been), it can learn a 1st-level magic-user spell for each of its first four ages and a 2nd-level magic-user spell every age after that, to a maximum of four 1st-level and four 2nd-level magic-user spells at ancient age. Phase dragons have the same age categories and abilities to detect hidden or invisible beings that regular dragons have, but they lack any fear aura abilities. They can be subdued. Phase dragons are a glossy light blue-gray in color, and their scales have a mother-of-pearl sheen to them. They speak their own tongue and their alignment language, and 75% of them know the common tongue as well. Phase dragons are 40% likely to be found sleeping. They make saving throws like regular dragons.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #94 (1985).


Elsewhere, we determined that we will convert these as "lesser dragons", like wyverns and linnorms, and not true dragons with age categories.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 29, 2009)

Looks like we should base it on the Pseudodragon, there are many similarities in its stats.

Its size (including 3' body length), 6" land move, AC, and see invisible ability are identical to the AD&D Pseudodragon, so we may as well just copy the SRD Pseudodragon's equivalent in those areas. (Tiny Dragon, AC 18, Speed 15 ft, Blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision)

Now for the changes:

Increase Hit Dice by to 3d12, with advancement 4-5HD (Tiny). So it's 3-5 HD to a Pseudo's 2-4 HD.

Its Magic Resistance is 30% to the Pseudo's 30%, so Spell Resistance 18 instead of the 3E Pseudo's 19?

Plus the normal true dragon's immunity to sleep and paralysis, of course.

Its phase-shifting ability is its big power. Since it says it works like a phase spider's, we may as well copy-and-paste the SRD phase spider's Ethereal Jaunt power.

The 1st level magic-user spells just look like it gains sorcerer levels somehow, but not all pseudodragons can do this. Maybe add a subentry for "arcane phase dragons" that casts spells as a sorcerer of a level equal to its Hit Dice?

Now, what shall we do about ability scores. A pseudodragon is:

Pseudodragon: Str 6, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10.

I feel its stats should be a bit better than a pseudodragon, it has 3HD to the pseudo's 2HD and an intelligence of average-very (8-12) to a pseudo's average (8-10). Also, it will need a 12 in its spellcasting stat (Charisma if we go sorcerer) to be able to cast 2nd level spells.

So, how about the following:

Phase Dragon: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 13

It has bite 1d4 instead of a sting.

Hmm, I'm tempted to increase its bite to 1d6 so its average damage (1d6-1) is almost the same as the original's 1d4 _sans_ penalties.

The phase dragon doesn't have telepathy like a pseudodragon.

And finally, it has a confusion breath weapon instead of a coma-causing poison. That looks like it translates to a 10-foot cone with effects as a _confusion_ spell (caster level = HD or HD+3?).


----------



## freyar (Jun 29, 2009)

That sounds like a pretty good analysis to me.  

As for the arcane spells, we could either add "or by character class (favored class sorcerer)" to the advancement, give all of them Spells (Sp) (or have a sidebar variant), or give them some SLAs.  I think I'm partial to giving all of them Spells (not just some of them) to juice them up a little.  But it's not a big deal.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 29, 2009)

freyar said:


> That sounds like a pretty good analysis to me.
> 
> As for the arcane spells, we could either add "or by character class (favored class sorcerer)" to the advancement, give all of them Spells (Sp) (or have a sidebar variant), or give them some SLAs.  I think I'm partial to giving all of them Spells (not just some of them) to juice them up a little.  But it's not a big deal.




I don't mind giving them all levels in sorcerer but I don't think spell-like abilities is a good fit with the phase dragon as written.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 30, 2009)

Bye!


----------



## Cleon (Jun 30, 2009)

Bye!


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 30, 2009)

I remember we gave the pink dragon over at the true dragons thread a unique spellcasting progression. I think we can modify that for the phase dragon.


----------



## freyar (Jun 30, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I don't mind giving them all levels in sorcerer but I don't think spell-like abilities is a good fit with the phase dragon as written.






Cleon said:


> I don't mind giving them all levels in sorcerer but I don't think spell-like abilities is a good fit with the phase dragon as written.






Cleon said:


> I don't mind giving them all levels in sorcerer but I don't think spell-like abilities is a good fit with the phase dragon as written.




That was very emphatic!   I agree, just throwing out options.



RavinRay said:


> I remember we gave the pink dragon over at the true dragons thread a unique spellcasting progression. I think we can modify that for the phase dragon.




Well, I don't think we want a progression, since we're not giving these age categories.

What if we give them all 1 effective level of sorcerer and let them advance by character class as well as HD?  That keeps the average one kind of weak but allows some to be more powerful.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jun 30, 2009)

I agree with freyar. One level of sorcerer automatically, and advance by character class.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> That was very emphatic!   I agree, just throwing out options.




Sorry about that, my internet connection kept on cutting out last night and from my end it looked like my first two attempts at the post failed to get through.

Oh well, such things happen.

As for their sorcery, I suggested sorcery level = HD because (a) it means the top end (5th level sorcerer) matches up fairly well to the original, with its multiple 1st & 2nd level spells, and (b) many spellcasting creatures do so at a level around their HD - i.e. the 3HD aranea is a 3rd level sorcerer. Admittedly the original starts out at the bottom, with one 1st level spell, which argues for making them 1st level sorcerers.

So, I'm fine with making them 1st level sorcerers and gaining 1 level per level of Dragon, plus being able to gain sorcerer levels with class advancement.


----------



## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Jun 30, 2009)

Looking good.  

Spells:
0 - dancing lights, daze, ghost sound, prestidigitation ?
1 - color spray, ?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2009)

Hypnotism for the second spell?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 1, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Hypnotism for the second spell?




I prefer something defensive. _Mirror image_ could be amusing combined with its phasing. Failing that, _protection from arrows_ or _hideous laughter_?


----------



## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

Cleon, the spells you suggested are 2nd-level, so beyond its ability.

Updated.

Skills: 36
Appraise, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Spellcraft, Spot?  Maybe work Knowledge (arcana) in there?

Feats: Weapon Finesse (B), 2 more


----------



## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

Those are all 2nd level, unfortunately.  I like hypnotism, or we could go with obscuring mist if wew want something like mirror image.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2009)

I avoided defensive spells because its AC is already 18. Adding the +4 from mage armor or shiled would be unreasonably high for a critter of this CR, especially because the party won't yet have dispelling access. Obscuring mist might be interesting, as would ventriloquism, but I still like hypnotism.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Cleon, the spells you suggested are 2nd-level, so beyond its ability.




Oh sorry, I misread the "second" with a level behind it for some reason.

_Obscuring mist_ is OK, but it can just phase out if it wants to avoid a fight. I think _grease_ has more versatility and repeat value, There's always _true strike_, which would allow it to pop out of the ether with a +20 bonus on bite attack, or _burning hands_ if we feel it needs some Area-of-Effect punch.

As for feats, I'd go for Flyby Attack for the first one. Not so sure about t'other. How about Spell Penetration, since I'm guessing it will often have to deal with other Tiny magic-resistant dragons?

I'd was thinking of Diplomacy instead of Appraise, since pseudodragons have that skill, but it does say they covet treasure. Diplomacy is probably a bit more useful, though.

So, if we give it Knowledge (arcana) which of its other skills shall we take points from? Hide seems the obvious one, since (a) it can use ethereal jaunt to avoid attention and (b) it not having good conventional stealth will help differentiate it from a pseudodragon.


----------



## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

Cleon, you don't like hypnotism?

Flyby Attack and Spell Penetration work for me.

I like Appraise for these.  If we want Diplomacy (though I don't get that vibe very strongly), I'd say drop Hide since I don't get a super-stealthy vibe from them either.  So either just replace Hide with Know (arcana) or split ranks with Diplomacy, I guess.


----------



## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

Let's stick with hypnotism, since nothing in the original writup indicates any particular interest in harming others.

Along those same lines, I agree with adding Diplomacy.  These things have good tendencies, so it makes sense that they'd want to converse with other creatures.  Dropping Hide is fine, since they can simply "phase out" if they need to disappear.   I want to keep at least a few ranks in Appraise, though, since the limited flavor text made a point to indicate their greed

How about Appraise 3, Concentration 6, Diplomacy 3, Knowledge (arcana) 6, Listen 6, Spellcraft 6, Spot 6?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

Those skills and feats appeal.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 2, 2009)

freyar said:


> Cleon, you don't like hypnotism?




Well it's a bit of a "meh" spell for me, since it usually just ends up with either enough of the phase dragon's opponents making their Will save to attack it and break the dragon's concentration, or everyone just ends up staring at each other and doing nothing. I'd prefer something a bit more proactive, but it's easy enough to swap it out for other phase dragons.

If you don't like damage-dealing spells, there's always _sleep_ I guess.



freyar said:


> Flyby Attack and Spell Penetration work for me.






Shade said:


> How about Appraise 3, Concentration 6, Diplomacy 3, Knowledge (arcana) 6, Listen 6, Spellcraft 6, Spot 6?




Those skills & feats work for me too.


----------



## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested duration for the confusion effect of the breath weapon?  Maybe 1d6 rounds?

Environment: Any forests?

Organization: Solitary or pair?

Challenge Rating: 2?

Treasure: Triple standard?
It had type F, which includes:
1-20 1,000s of silver pieces: 10% 
1-12 1,000s of electrum pieces: 15%
1-10 1,000s of gold pieces: 40%
1-8 100s of platinum pieces: 35%
3-30 gems: 20%
1-10 jewelry: 10%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 3 except swords or miscellaneous weapons, plus 1 potion & 1 scroll: 30%

Alignment: Always chaotic, rarely evil?

Level Adjustment: +3 (like pseudodragon)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

Triple standard, forests and 1d6 rounds sounds good.

The breath weapon is nastier than the pseudodragon's sleep venom, and it's got spellcasting (albeit a little bit of it, but color spray can make or break entire parties at low levels). I'd say CR 3.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

Stupid double post!


----------



## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

A phase dragon is roughly 3 feet long and weighs about x pounds.

Phase dragons speak Draconic and Common?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

How much does a pseudodragon weigh?

The languages look good.


----------



## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

A pseudodragon has a body about 1 foot long, with a 2-foot tail. It weights about 7 pounds.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 3, 2009)

OK. So are these guys three feet long in the body, or do they have roughly the same proportions, you think? They don't have a sting attack, which suggests a shorter tail, bulkier body and higher (10 pounds? 15?) weight.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 3, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> OK. So are these guys three feet long in the body, or do they have roughly the same proportions, you think? They don't have a sting attack, which suggests a shorter tail, bulkier body and higher (10 pounds? 15?) weight.




They'd probably be Small sized if they were three feet long in the body. I'd be fine with making them the same weight as a Pseudodragon, or a little heavier. Maybe 8 pounds, the upper limit for a standard Tiny creature.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Suggested duration for the confusion effect of the breath weapon?  Maybe 1d6 rounds?




1d6 is OK. I wouldn't go any higher, since it's quite effective.



Shade said:


> Environment: Any forests?
> 
> Organization: Solitary or pair?




Yes, those both fit.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 2?
> 
> Treasure: Triple standard?




I agree with demiurge, CR3 is more fitting, although I considering their ethereal phase ability more significant than 1 level or sorcery.

Type F is an awfully good treasure for such a little critter, so triple standard is fine as far as I'm concerned. They'll presumably use their _ethereal jaunt_ to hide their lair, so it'll be difficult to retrieve.



Shade said:


> Alignment: Always chaotic, rarely evil?
> 
> Level Adjustment: +3 (like pseudodragon)?




Yes to the alignment, but I'd make the Level Adjustment higher. You're talking about a spellcasting PC with _ethereal jaunt_ at will. That's a killer ability, so I would think LA +4, or maybe even +5, is more appropriate.


----------



## freyar (Jul 3, 2009)

Wow, good progress.

I like all the above, and 8-10 lb is fine with me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## freyar (Jul 6, 2009)

All done!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 6, 2009)

Yep!


----------



## Cleon (Jul 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yep!




The stats looks finished so I'd say it's good to go, unless we fancy adding a bit more descriptive text. Maybe something about it stealing unattended valuables?

It looks a bit odd that the phase dragon's combat strategy make no mention of its ethereal jaunt ability, so maybe we could expand that? Something like "A phase dragon prefers to avoid combat, utilizing its breath weapon to cover its escape into the ethereal plane. If forced to fight, it uses its ethereal jaunt ability to make jaunt-and-run attacks."


----------



## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Hey, that's really good!  I'm all for adding those tactics.


----------



## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

Agreed!  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 7, 2009)

Shade said:


> Agreed!  Updated.




"but to occasionally swip unattended valuables"

Swip?

Methinks you're missing an "e" there.

Apart from the typo that Phase Dragon looks finished.


----------



## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

Someone swipped my "e".  

Fixed.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

*Thendar*
FREQUENCY: Rare on Astral Plane; very rare elsewhere
NO. APPEARING: 1 (5% chance of 2-8)
ARMOR CLASS: See below
MOVE: 17" to 20" on Astral Plane; 12" elsewhere
HIT DICE: 5 + 5
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 weapon
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell use, spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
INTELLIGENCE: Genius to supra-genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
SIZE: M (6. to 6½. tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Immune to psionic attack
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VI/550 + 6/hp

Thendar are native to the Astral Plane, though they may be found on any of the known planes. They are a wandering race, seldom remaining in one place for very long. Thendar are generally peaceful and have a great thirst for knowledge of all sorts. They have life spans ranging in the thousands of years, and seek out new experiences to relieve the monotony of their existence.

Thendar appear to be tall, slender humans with golden skin, silvery hair, and glowing white eyes. They prefer to  wear hooded robes of durable gray or blue material. Thendar do not usually collect treasure but may carry a memento or two picked up during their travels. Ornate jewelry, magical staffs, walking sticks, and other such items are typical examples. Such items will not usually have any great magical power but may have some value as antiques on the worlds where they were acquired, as they are liable to be several centuries old. Weapons are rarely carried or used. 

Thendar possess natural true seeing and communicate by an innate ability to understand all spoken languages, as per tongues. They have normal ultravision. They may use the following spell-like powers, one at a time, one per round, at the 12th level of ability: change self, dimension door, light, magic missile (5 times/day), plane shift (2/day), project image (l/day), sunburst (as per wand of light, S/day), wall of force (1/day). Thendar have excellent memories, never forgetting anything that they have experienced. They are immune to the effects of feeblemind or forget spells as well as all psionic attacks or powers.

Because of their long lives and far travels, thendar are great sources of information. They may answer questions as sages, with special categories in the inner and outer planes and major fields in humankind, demi-humankind, humanoids, and giantkind. The prices asked to provide such knowledge to other races are often unusual. Minor questions have been answered for no more than a demonstration of a simple knot or the telling of an old folktale. More exacting information has been gained simply by allowing the thendar to accompany the party and observe their actions for a time (if the thendar found the journey interesting) or in exchange for an equally arcane bit of knowledge. Thendar are only interested in lore that they do not already possess.

The githyanki hold a particular hatred for the thendar, who respond with only an indifferent annoyance. The thendar are on good terms with astral devas and star leviathans (see DRAGON issue #89, Creature Catalog I).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #101 (1985).


----------



## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Outsider or humanoid (extraplanar)?  I'm leaning toward humanoid myself.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

I see 'em as outsiders.


----------



## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Sell me on it!   What do they exemplify?


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

Touche'.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.






			
				Manual of the Planes said:
			
		

> The Astral Plane has few native forms. It does have a lot of travelers, and some natives of other planes have taken up permanent residence there. The most notable of the "almost natives" are the githyanki, a race that long ago fled their mind flayer masters and established their own tyranny almost as bloodthirsty as that of their illithid enslavers. The astral dreadnought may be a form of native life, but that creature's origin is difficult to study.






			
				Thendar entry said:
			
		

> Thendar are native to the Astral Plane, though they may be found on any of the known planes.




I realize that's not the strongest argument, but that's enough for me.  

Also, I have a hard time accepting a 5 HD creature with a boatload of SLAs and a lifespan akin to dragons as being of the humanoid type!


----------



## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Ehh, good enough for me too.  But drow are halfway there in SLAs and lifespan.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2009)

Yeah, the SLAs push it over the top for me. Considering how powerful those SLAs are (and we might want to consider pushing sunburst down to, say, searing light), I would definitely suggest increasing the HD. After all, in previous editions things like bone devils only had 5 HD.


----------



## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

The SLA comparison is pretty decent with bone devils, too.  10HD?


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

That works for me.

Str 11, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 19?


----------



## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Those scores seem good to me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Wow, so much already!

No natural, I think, but I could go for a deflection bonus to AC.

Give them some kind of ability to use all Knowledge skills as if trained or a racial bonus or something?


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

Another chance to use this!

Knowledgeable (Ex): A faerie phiz makes Knowledge checks for any Knowledge skills as if it had a minimum of 10 ranks in that skill. To surpass the 10-rank minimum, it must assign more than 10 ranks to the skill as normal.


----------



## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Yes!  I knew  we'd used that somewhere recently!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 11, 2009)

Agreed to knowledgable and to an unearthly grace-type ability. Considering their affinity for force effects, giving them mage armor wouldn't be much of a stretch.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> That works for me.
> 
> Str 11, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 19?




The original has Int 17-20, so that seems to be a bit of an inflation. I'd drop the mental stats by 2 apiece, and likely swapped Int and Wis around since these seem more of a "wise sage" trope than a "cunning savant".

The Constitution also seems rather high. I'm not seeing anything in the description that indicates they're super-robust, although the 5+5 HD suggests better than average Con, so would cut it down a bit.

So, I prefer Str 11, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 17


----------



## Cleon (Jul 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> Outsider or humanoid (extraplanar)?  I'm leaning toward humanoid myself.




I agree with Outsider, since they're native to the astral plane and have all those magical powers. I suspect they were once Humanoid (Extraplanar), but that was long ago.


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 11, 2009)

I was about to wonder about their relationship to the githyanki before I came to the very bottom of the article. Outsider for me as well. I'm surprised they don't view the 'yanki as pesky interlopers. I was wondering about the Con 20 too.


----------



## freyar (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm ok with dropping the Con a bit (though +5 seems a pretty high addition to HD), but I prefer Int toward the higher range given their general knowledge (which is Int, not Wis based).  And I like the higher Cha for the SLAs, too.  How about Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 19?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 12, 2009)

I like the inflated mental stats and favor only a small drop to Con, if any.


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

I'd rather not drop either.

Their Con is on par with (or slightly below) other 10 HD outsiders, such as monadic devas, osyluths, and vrocks.  The "+5" in the HD line was quite a big boost in 1e.

Also, their Int of Genius to supra-genius rivaled only the greatest of dragons, archdevils, etc., in 1e, so the scores are probably a bit understated, actually.   These are knowledge-focused monsters, so mental stats should be their strong suit.


----------



## freyar (Jul 13, 2009)

Nicely put.  Let's go back to the originally proposed stats, then.


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> No natural, I think, but I could go for a deflection bonus to AC.






demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to knowledgable and to an unearthly grace-type ability. Considering their affinity for force effects, giving them mage armor wouldn't be much of a stretch.




Does anyone see a problem with simply giving them unearthly grace (adds Cha bonus to saves and as deflection bonus to AC)?

I like the mage armor idea as well.   3/day?  That puts them at AC 20, at least 4 points shy of the other outsiders we compared them to earlier.  Maybe add shield 3/day as well?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> Does anyone see a problem with simply giving them unearthly grace (adds Cha bonus to saves and as deflection bonus to AC)?
> 
> I like the mage armor idea as well.   3/day?  That puts them at AC 20, at least 4 points shy of the other outsiders we compared them to earlier.  Maybe add shield 3/day as well?




I don't see anything suggesting such extraordinarily good saves in the original. I was thinking just Wis bonus to AC like a monk, not Cha.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

The monk bonus to AC is a nice suggestion--I like it! 

I also think that just 3/day mage armor is sufficient.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The monk bonus to AC is a nice suggestion--I like it!




Ta.



demiurge1138 said:


> I also think that just 3/day mage armor is sufficient.




Mage armour's OK by me.

So, what AC have we got so far? +2 Dex, +5 Wis, +4 _mage armour_ adds up to AC21. If we want it to be near a "typical" 10 HD Outsider it looks like it needs nudging up a bit more.


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Updated.

Other than adding shield as a SLA, I could see granting them an insight bonus.  However, that is usually based off Wis modifier, so combined with the monk AC bonus, it would be "double-dipping."


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

OK, you've convinced me to shield. And their caster level is high enough that they can take Quicken for it as a feat!


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Sounds good.

Skills: 14 at 13 ranks
Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Spellcraft, Spot?   3 more Knowledge skills?

Feats: 4
Quicken Spell-Like Ability (shield) was suggested.  What else?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Quicken and Empower SLA (magic missile), Combat Expertise? I see them throwing magic missles around like mad. I could drop one of the magic missle feats or the other if there's strong sentiment against them, but I'd like to keep at least one.


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

It works for me.  Since they tend to shun weapons, and lack other attacks, magic missiles seem an excellent method of removing "inconveniences" in their pursuit of knowledge.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Quicken and Empower SLA (magic missile), Combat Expertise? I see them throwing magic missles around like mad. I could drop one of the magic missle feats or the other if there's strong sentiment against them, but I'd like to keep at least one.




Hmm, so the proposal is Quicken (shield) *and* Quicken (magic missile). I guess if _magic missile_ is they're preferred form of violence it makes sense they would have a defence against it, but it looks like it may be investing too many feats into 1st level spells.

It can Empower a spell up to 4th level with its 12 caster levels, so we could put that feat into a different SLA. How about Empower (searing light)? It only has 2 uses of it, but it's a little better damage-wise than _magic missile_, assuming it hits.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Skills: 14 at 13 ranks
> Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Spellcraft, Spot?   3 more Knowledge skills?




Are we going to set the other Knowledge skills? The relevant section is:

"They may answer questions as sages, with special categories in the inner and outer planes and major fields in humankind, demi-humankind, humanoids, and giantkind. The prices asked to provide such knowledge to other races are often unusual. Minor questions have been answered for no more than a demonstration of a simple knot or the telling of an old folktale"

Humanoids fall under Knowledge (local), giants under Knowledge (nature) and its great age and possession of antiques suggests Knowledge (history). That would make it:
Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Spellcraft, Spot​That's twelve skills, so we're still missing two. Any suggestions? A knowledge skill or two to represent "personal interests"?


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Empower (searing light) works for me.

Decipher Script would seem to make sense in their pursuit of Knowledge.  And maybe Sense Motive to support their approach to "equal value" of shared knowledge?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2009)

I like the way the skill list is shaping up.


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested sample weapon for attack lines?   Quarterstaff?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-8)

Challenge Rating: 7?  They are fare less deadly than the equal HD, CR 9 vrock and osyluth.

Treasure: No coins; standard goods; no items?

Alignment: Always neutral good?

Advancement: 11-20 HD (Medium); 21-30 HD (Large)?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Empower (searing light) works for me.
> 
> Decipher Script would seem to make sense in their pursuit of Knowledge.  And maybe Sense Motive to support their approach to "equal value" of shared knowledge?




Good ideas, that's the skills done then.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Suggested sample weapon for attack lines?   Quarterstaff?
> 
> ...




Challenge Rating's OK.

The description mentions magical staves, so while they often carry mundane antiquities it needs something in the items category, how about:Treasure: No coins, 50% goods, 25% items​Advancement by hit dice seems wrong, I don't see them as growing to 7'+ Large sized creatures. Advancement by class makes more sense to me.

If so, what favoured class should they have?

EDIT: Oh, and quarterstaff's fine for a weapon.


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Good suggestion on the treasure.



Cleon said:


> CAdvancement by hit dice seems wrong, I don't see them as growing to 7'+ Large sized creatures. Advancement by class makes more sense to me.
> 
> If so, what favoured class should they have?




Most outsiders advance by Hit Dice.  It seems no stranger for them to improve by Hit Dice than many of the angels.

I'm OK with keeping them Medium, though, and adding "or by character class" to the progression.

The only core classes that seem marginally suitable are bard and wizard.  The loremaster prestige class makes the most sense.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> Most outsiders advance by Hit Dice.  It seems no stranger for them to improve by Hit Dice than many of the angels.
> 
> I'm OK with keeping them Medium, though, and adding "or by character class" to the progression.
> 
> The only core classes that seem marginally suitable are bard and wizard.  The loremaster prestige class makes the most sense.




It's them becoming Large that seems wrong to me. I'm fine with them advancing by Outsider levels if they stay the same size, preferably with "or character class". Maybe have them advance like Erinyes and Succubi, which go to twice their original HD while remaining Medium?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2009)

I approve of keeping them Medium.


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or *x* (2-8)

Thendar stand 6 to 6-1/2 feet tall and weigh around x pounds. 

Thendar speak Celestial and x, though they can speak with almost any creature because of their tongues ability.  (they are intelligent enough to possess several languages)


----------



## Leopold (Jul 16, 2009)

Thendar natively speak Celestial . With their _ tongues_ ability they are able to speak to any creature that has a verbal form of communication.

Solitary or Troop (2-8)


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm not sure about "troop", since they aren't very militaristic.   Can you think of a good term for a group of wandering knowledge-seekers?   I toyed with "enclave", but that seems more appropriate for a cloistered group of lore-seekers.


----------



## Leopold (Jul 16, 2009)

Band? Troupe? Group?  Brotherhood? Choir?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

A drift of thendars?


----------



## freyar (Jul 17, 2009)

A school?  Or is that too obvious?  Class?  Lecture?

I really like how these have shaped up in my absence.   Let's also give them Common and perhaps an elemental language or two (I'm not sure which suits it best, though).


----------



## Cleon (Jul 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> A school?  Or is that too obvious?  Class?  Lecture?
> 
> I really like how these have shaped up in my absence.   Let's also give them Common and perhaps an elemental language or two (I'm not sure which suits it best, though).




An inquiry of thendars.


----------



## Leopold (Jul 17, 2009)

I still like Choir. It's a traditional angelic grouping


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Cleon said:


> An inquiry of thendars.




I like!



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I really like how these have shaped up in my absence.  Let's also give them Common and perhaps an elemental language or two (I'm not sure which suits it best, though).




For some reason Auran seems the best fit.  Let't throw Draconic into the mix as well, since it is the default "ancient language".


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Updated.

I think all that remains is to determine their weight.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 18, 2009)

Since they're human size but skinny, how about 120 pounds?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Since they're human size but skinny, how about 120 pounds?




There's skinny and there's almost skeletal, they are usually over 6 feet tall, remember. I'd prefer 150 pounds.


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

All done?


----------



## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

I think we're finished here.  I like Auran and Draconic for the language choices.


----------



## Shade (Aug 4, 2009)

I'm surprised this one has remained unconverted so long.  I'm a huge fan of the under-utilized plane of Pandemonium, and fiends are my favorite monsters, so I guess I must've overlooked them as an ettercap knockoff based on the artwork.  

*Tener*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVE: 12.
HIT DICE: 9
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: A in lair; M, N, Q T
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4 claws
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/1-6/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Multiple attacks; poisonous bite; spells; gripping
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells; various resistances and immunities; hit only by magical weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral or chaotic evil
SIZE: L (8. tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 140
Attack/Defense Modes: ED/G
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VIII/3200 + 12/hp

The tener is a grey, hairy, spindly-limbed creature. It is bipedal and has long claws on the hands of its four arms. It has large amber eyes set in a small round head, and spiderlike chelicerae flank its fanged mouth. The tener is greed incarnate and will jealously guard anything of the slightest value. It regards all strangers as thieves, but it itself has all of the abilities of a 9th-level thief except for backstabbing capabilities.

Teners may use the following powers, one per round, at the 9th level of ability (where applicable): bestow curse reverse form of remove curse), darkness 15’ radius, detect invisibility, haste (self only), teleport without error (once per day), and slow (once per day). Teners have both infravision and ultravision. They are immune to poisons, noxious gases, and paralysis, and take half damage from fire and cold. Teners are harmed only by +1 or better weapons, and cannot be petrified or polymorphed.

The tener has a powerful grip. If it scores a hit with two of its hands, it holds its victim, striking at +3 “to hit” with its other two sets of claws and biting (at +3 “to hit”) for 1-2 points of damage. The bite of a tener is venomous and causes paralysis for 6-36 turns (save at -2). Individuals held by a tener attack at -3 “to hit”. A character’s chance of breaking a tener’s grasp is equal to his chance of bending bars, checked on any round that the attempt is made. No other action is possible for the character during such a round.

Teners are better known for their greed than for their malice, and they may be bribed not to harm a party. Such bribery is expensive, however, and not particularly reliable. Teners are native to the plane of Pandemonium and are also found, on occasion, in Limbo or the Abyss. They roam the Astral, Ethereal, and Prime Material Planes in search of treasure.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #101 (1985).


----------



## Shade (Aug 4, 2009)

It sounds like high Dex, decent Str, poor Int, and some reliance on Cha due to the frequent SLAs.

They are similar in power level to an osyluth (though smaller in size), and are comparable in size and approach to an assassin devil (although lesser by several HD).

Assassin Devil (Dogai): Str 19, Dex 28, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 22, Cha 17
Osyluth: Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14

So maybe Str 20, Dex 24, Con 19, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 14?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 5, 2009)

Those ability scores appeal. Are we going to keep the bite as a grapple-only option, or let it make a bite attack normally? I'd prefer the latter option, meself.

Let's see. Old-school thief skills at a 9th level would indicate ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Climb, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand. Now, these guys are pretty darn dumb, so we might want to consider giving them a racial bonus to one or more of these skills.

Although... they're natives of Pandemonium, so Listen is actually worthless. In fact, they might have racial deafness (no penalties for being deaf, immune to language-dependant effects) and telepathy for communication.


----------



## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

I like the normal bite, but perhaps give it maul (constrict-like option for bite).  

Abilities sound good.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 5, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Let's see. Old-school thief skills at a 9th level would indicate ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Climb, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand. Now, these guys are pretty darn dumb, so we might want to consider giving them a racial bonus to one or more of these skills.
> 
> Although... they're natives of Pandemonium, so Listen is actually worthless. In fact, they might have racial deafness (no penalties for being deaf, immune to language-dependant effects) and telepathy for communication.




I'd give it a Climb speed and the same racial bonuses as a Monstrous Hunting Spider (+10 Jump, +4 Hide, +8 Climb, +8 Spot) plus the ability to use the best of Dex or Str for Climb checks.

As an Int 7 Outsider it has enough skill points to max-out six skills (12 points per skill). I'd not put any points in Climb (its Dex 24 and racial bonus gives it Climb +15, which should be enough for most purposes) and put 12 points each in Hide, Move Silently and Listen and 9 points each in Search, Disable Device, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand.

Including ability, size and racial adjustments that works out as:

*Skills:* Climb +15, Disable Device +7, Jump +15, Hide +19, Listen +13, Move Silently +19, Open Lock +16, Search +10, Sleight of Hand +16, Spot +18

Those look reasonable. Disable Device is a bit low, but that seems appropriate.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 5, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Although... they're natives of Pandemonium, so Listen is actually worthless. In fact, they might have racial deafness (no penalties for being deaf, immune to language-dependant effects) and telepathy for communication.




They could have a supernatural ability to ignore noise penalties to Listen checks. Maybe combined with sonic resistance?

Also, they often roam other planes (Limbo, Abyss, Astral, Ethereal and Prime Material _et cetera_), where regular Listen checks are possible.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

Here's a couple of abilities I gave some outsiders from Pandemonium I pitched to Dragon awhile back...

Wind Tolerance (Su): Flying x are unaffected by high winds, and are never checked, knocked down, or blown away by wind conditions. x suffer no penalties to Listen checks made in areas of high winds.

Sounds of Pandemonium (Su): The spells and sonic effects of x are not limited to 10 feet on the plane of Pandemonium. Additionally, xs' hearing is not limited like that of other creatures on Pandemonium. x cannot be deafened by any means.


----------



## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Does Sounds of Pandemonium only work on sonic effects (or does Pandemonium limit other spells in some way)?  I'm going back and forth on how helpful these are for teners.   Hmph.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

*Hearing on Pandemonium*
The constant screams of wind make it impossible to hear anything beyond 10 feet. Likewise, spells and effects that rely on sonic energy have their range limited to 10 feet. Travelers are temporarily deafened after 1d10 rounds of exposure to the winds, and permanently deafened after 24 hours of exposure. Temporarily deafened characters regain their hearing after 1 hour spent out of the wind.

Ear plugs or similar devices negate the deafening effect. Of course, wearing ear plugs effectively mimics the normal effects of being deafened.


----------



## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

I so wish the Great Wheel were in the SRD. Is it always severe wind on Pandemonium?  If so, I think those abilities are good, though we can probably remove the spells and sonic effects bit unless we let them advance by character class.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

*Pandemonium Combat*
Combat functions normally on Pandemonium, but in most cases takes place among strong winds. All ranged weapons suffer a -2 penalty on attacks due to the winds, and Tiny or smaller creatures must make a Fortitude save (DC 10) each round or be knocked down.

Sometimes the winds of Pandemonium are even more powerful. For the effects of stronger winds on combat, see Table 3-17: Wind Effects in Chapter 3 of the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide.


----------



## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

You've convinced me.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

Added to Homebrews (sans wind tolerance and sounds of Pandemonium until 0others weigh in on them).

I think we should give them a climb speed, since old-school thieves were swift climbers, and their natural enviroment is mostly winding caverns.


----------



## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

10 or 20 ft climb speed?  That could free up some skill ranks too.

They should have Imp Grab (after 2 claw hits in one round) to go with Maul.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2009)

I sort of like them just having ranks in Climb without a climb speed, but it appears that giving them that speed is the consensus. 

I like the Pandaemonic abilities.


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 6, 2009)

*Possible stats*
Type: Outsider (chaotic)?
Powerful grip = rend
Poisonous bite: no secondary effect?
Damage reduction n/magic


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

How about DR 10/lawful?   DR /magic is so weak, especially once characters are traveling the planes.



> The bite of a tener is venomous and causes paralysis for 6-36 turns (save at -2).




Rather than making its bite inject poison, how about just modifying the carrion crawler's paralysis ability?

Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a carrion crawler's tentacle attack must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 2d4 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.

6-36 turns equates to 1 to 6 hours!

The save at -2 implies Ability Focus or a racial bonus to the save DC.


For the improved grab/maul, which approach do you prefer?

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a tener must hit an opponent of any size with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can maul.

Maul (Ex): A tener grappling an opponent with two or more of its claws deals automatic bite damage each round it maintains the grapple.

-OR-

Maul (Ex): A tener that hits an opponent with two or more of its claw attacks immediately hits with its subsequent bite attack.

This is how we did it with the mara...no improved grab at all.  More like rend.   We can still give it improved grab, but needn't tie the maul to it.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2009)

I like the mara version.

Agreed to Ability Focus as one of the feats. Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack might also be good choices, but we can put that off a bit, perhaps.


----------



## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

Now that I think about it, I think we called the improved grab version "chew."  Too confusing.  I would go with maul (rend version), but I think the original text supports improved grab with the whole bend bars bit:



> The tener has a powerful grip. If it scores a hit with two of its hands, it holds its victim, striking at +3 “to hit” with its other two sets of claws and biting (at +3 “to hit”) for 1-2 points of damage. The bite of a tener is venomous and causes paralysis for 6-36 turns (save at -2). Individuals held by a tener attack at -3 “to hit”. A character’s chance of breaking a tener’s grasp is equal to his chance of bending bars, checked on any round that the attempt is made. No other action is possible for the character during such a round.




I like the carrion crawler version of paralysis for the venom.  

Those feats appeal, but we can revisit them when we're done with SAs.


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

Updated.



> PSIONIC ABILITY: 140
> Attack/Defense Modes: ED/G




Give 'em psi-like abilities (or "psionics" for the non-psionic version), or discard the psionics like most 3e outsiders did?


----------



## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

I'd like to give them something, but "psionics" seems kind of redundant with the SLAs they have.  I say either make them fully psionic with Ps abilities or else just add on appropriate SLAs.


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 7, 2009)

Psionics in this case most likely refers to mind-affecting charm spells. We can label it as psionics (sp) like the couatl for instance.


----------



## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Right, but the couatl doesn't also have regular SLAs.  Having both Spell-like Abilities (Sp) and Psionics (Sp) seems redundant to me.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

I'd rather strip out the psionics altogether. They seem tacked on.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 7, 2009)

freyar said:


> 10 or 20 ft climb speed?  That could free up some skill ranks too.




I was thinking 30 feet Climb speed. They've got all those arms, a powerful grip and are very spider-ish.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 7, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'd rather strip out the psionics altogether. They seem tacked on.




Yes, the psionic attack forms do seem rather pointless and I'd have no objection to seeing them cut. Unless, that is, we make an alternative version which swaps its spell-like abilities psionics? _Hustle_ instead of _haste_, _ectoplasmic cocoon_ instead of _slow_, _cloud mind_ instead of _darkness_, plus _psionic greater teleport_. Not sure how to interpret _bestow curse_, maybe make it _id insinuation_ at will?

As for their wind resistance, I'd think some form of Wind Tolerance would be enough. They don't have any sound-based attack, so Sounds of Pandemonium doesn't do much for them.


----------



## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Let's just drop the psionics and meet halfway on the climb speed (giving us 20 ft.).  As for the sounds of Pandemonium, it also benefits their hearing and provides for the possibility of one advancing as a spellcaster.  I could see one as an assassin or arcane trickster.

Challenge Rating: 11?  That paralysis is _nasty_. 

Treasure: Double standard?  (Its 1e treasure types account for roughly up to 20,000 gp value in coins, 40 gems, 30 jewels, and any 3 magic items)

Advancement: 11–20 HD (Large); 21–33 HD (Huge)?  (Osyluths reach Huge at 21 HD, while vrocks reach Huge at 15 HD--both are 10 HD)

Level Adjustment: +7?  (Similar fiends are in the +6 to +8 range)

A tener is 8 feet tall and weighs x pounds.

Teners speak Abyssal?


----------



## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

All that sounds good, except I think advancement should include "or by character class." 

350-400 lb, based on scaling up ettercaps.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

I think CR 10. The paralysis is nasty, yes, but they have a low AC and less than 100 hp. The DR 10/lawful will certainly help them out in that regard, but I think they're only a little nastier than a bone devil, and not as bad as a barbed devil.


----------



## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

They appear to be done.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 7, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's just drop the psionics and meet halfway on the climb speed (giving us 20 ft.).  As for the sounds of Pandemonium, it also benefits their hearing and provides for the possibility of one advancing as a spellcaster.  I could see one as an assassin or arcane trickster.




Works for me.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 11?  That paralysis is _nasty_.




Hold on, shouldn't the paralysis be with their bite only? The original monster only paralyzed through its venomous jaws, not its claws.

EDIT: Oh, and I agree with Demiurge. They look more like a CR 9-10 to me. :END EDIT



Shade said:


> Treasure: Double standard?  (Its 1e treasure types account for roughly up to 20,000 gp value in coins, 40 gems, 30 jewels, and any 3 magic items)
> 
> Advancement: 11–20 HD (Large); 21–33 HD (Huge)?  (Osyluths reach Huge at 21 HD, while vrocks reach Huge at 15 HD--both are 10 HD)
> 
> Level Adjustment: +7?  (Similar fiends are in the +6 to +8 range)




I'd think +6. Most 10-12 Hit Dice fiends can fly, teleport at will and have more powerful spell-like abilities.



Shade said:


> A tener is 8 feet tall and weighs x pounds.




An Ettercap is 6' and 200 pounds, scaling up to 8' works out at 475 pounds. Round that up to 500 pounds?



Shade said:


> Teners speak Abyssal?




Definitely.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 7, 2009)

freyar said:


> All that sounds good, except I think advancement should include "or by character class."




I'd prefer just by Hit Dice, they strike me as more bestially avaricious than smart. It would also seems odd that the super-genius Thendar we just statted up didn't have "by character class" advancement.


----------



## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Paralysis is just listed as bite damage, so I think Shade just forgot to put "bite" in the paralysis description.  

500 lb is ok, as long as they get thicker, too.  

I don't have a problem with dropping character class advancement, but then we should strip out the sonic effects and spells bit from Sounds of Pandemonium.  I have no problem with adding character class to the thendar, either.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 8, 2009)

Is the bite damage intentionally 1d2? That seems really weak, especially for a Large creature.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 8, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Is the bite damage intentionally 1d2? That seems really weak, especially for a Large creature.




Well that's what it does in the original. I'd have no objection to bumping the bite up to 1d4 or more. It doesn't make much difference damage-wise.


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I'd prefer just by Hit Dice, they strike me as more bestially avaricious than smart. It would also seems odd that the super-genius Thendar we just statted up didn't have "by character class" advancement.






freyar said:


> I don't have a problem with dropping character class advancement, but then we should strip out the sonic effects and spells bit from Sounds of Pandemonium.  I have no problem with adding character class to the thendar, either.




I read somewhere (can't find it now" that "by character class" is always implied for creatures with a modicum of intelligence.  It's usually just listed if a creature cannot advance by Hit Dice.  So the ol' thendar can most certainly take classes, and dropping it here won't prevent the tener from doing so.   So really, it makes little difference.



freyar said:


> Paralysis is just listed as bite damage, so I think Shade just forgot to put "bite" in the paralysis description.




Indeed.



demiurge1138 said:


> Is the bite damage intentionally 1d2? That seems really weak, especially for a Large creature.






Cleon said:


> Well that's what it does in the original. I'd have no objection to bumping the bite up to 1d4 or more. It doesn't make much difference damage-wise.




Sure, we can bump it to 1d4 or even 1d6.  I think the damage is just tacked on, as the main role of the bite is the paralysis delivery.


----------



## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

Let's go with 1d4 on the bite.  Seems like it shouldn't be too strong.


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Updated.

Good to go?


----------



## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

Looks good from here.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 12, 2009)

Looks good to me too.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Good to go?




The claws do 1d4+5 in Attack and 1d6+5 in Full Attack. IIRC the former is the error.

I'm also tempted to give them an additional language or two. Maybe Common and Draconic?

Common because they roam the Prime Material to hunt treasure.

Draconic because, er, dragons are greedy too.


----------



## freyar (Aug 12, 2009)

I'll possibly go with Common, but I'm not convinced about Draconic. Plus, they aren't so smart, so I don't think they should pile up on the languages.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 13, 2009)

They are pretty stupid. I'm okay with them not speaking Common, and I definitely don't want them speaking Draconic.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'll possibly go with Common, but I'm not convinced about Draconic. Plus, they aren't so smart, so I don't think they should pile up on the languages.




I was just throwing out some possibilities, just Abyssal and Common would do. Basically, there's mention of them negotiating for loot, and that may prove difficult if they only speak Demon!


----------



## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Let's just stick with Abyssal.  They can always negotiate through pantomime and the like.   They certainly wouldn't be the first creature who can't speak Common but deal with those who do.

I'll fix the claw damage.


----------



## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

*Asperim *(from the Latin asper-rough, bitter, harsh, particularly in the sense of exasperation)
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 8”
HIT DICE: 10
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: U (no gems or jewelry)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 0
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 0
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Magic only
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Evil
S I Z E : S
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

Exasperation is the key word to describe the Asperim personality. The Asperim are a sort of super-imps. They take delight in annoying any creature near them, in frustrating others and torturing them mentally. They are not actively evil; whatever physical harm they do is usually accidental.

The Asperim are lesser devils who may be found in the outermost circles of Hell. Occasionally they break out to work their deviltry on other planes. The Asperim are 13 in number. They are solitary creatures, since not even another Asperim will willingly subject itself to the company of one of its kind.

The Asperim appear as squat, green humanoids with long, pointed ears. They look something like a cross between a dwarf and a giant frog. The Asperim have a particularly bizarre sense of humor, delighting in crude practical jokes and malicious pranks. They often speak in cryptic exclamations such as: “Aw, go peddle your papers!” or “Your mother wears army boots!”

The Asperim, if asked for information, will always direct the party along the worst possible path. They will not give the same answer twice in a row to the same question. The Asperim have all the spells normal to devils except Fear (since they do not want victims to run in panic). In addition, the Asperim have the following spells: Erase, Nystul’s Magic Aura, Shocking Grasp, Ventriloquism, Audible Glamer, Fools Gold, Forget, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Slow, Confusion, Fumble, Polymorph Other, Feeblemind, Transmute Rock to Mud, Reverse Gravity, and Otto’s Irresistible Dance. All spells are cast as a l0th-level Magic-User.

The Asperim have no physical or psionic attacks and will teleport away if they cannot harm the party. The Asperim are highly magical in nature and are rumored to be powered by the souls of practical jokers. Asperim have a 70% chance of gating in 1-3 Imps, the only creatures who can stand to be in the company of the Asperim for any length of time.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #42 (1980).

Here's the regular imp:  Devil :: d20srd.org

Note that the Fiend Folio added the Filth, Euphoric, and Bloodbag Imps, all of which might help define this.


----------



## freyar (Aug 13, 2009)

Well, the other imps mentioned have about 3 average, 2 slightly better, and 1 good score (though the last "average" score for the filth imp is actually pretty bad).  Maybe for this one, since it has many more HD and seems to be larger, slightly above average physical stats, Int as described (good), average Wis, decent Cha?  The exasperating personality suggests low Cha, but the SLAs and ability to torment people suggests higher.  So I could go anywhere from Cha 14 to 20 probably.


----------



## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

A high Cha could be tempered with a racial penalty on Diplomacy and similar skill checks.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 13, 2009)

Agreed to racial penalties on Diplomacy. However, I don't see anything to suggest high physical ability scores. These guys are casters and avoid direct combat (although I think we should give them a physical melee attack, since the original didn't have any).


----------



## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Str 10, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 20?

AC is crap (14), and even the lowly filth imp has +3 natural armor.


----------



## freyar (Aug 13, 2009)

That's plenty high enough by what I was thinking.  And the Diplomacy/other skill penalties is great!  Agreed to all that.

Edit: also, should these be Small rather than Tiny?


----------



## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

I think Small works best.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 14, 2009)

Agreed to small. And the low AC is compensated for a bit by SLAs like blur and mirror image. A bit. We might want to raise it a bit towards the end of the process if we think it's a glaring oversight.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> Str 10, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 20?
> 
> AC is crap (14), and even the lowly filth imp has +3 natural armor.




I'd give it a higher Dex than that (say, 17 like a regular Imp?), but the other stats look fine.

I would definitely be tempted to improve its defenses. It has a lousy AC and its only magical defence is _invisibility_ (which most PCs of its level will likely see right through) and a mediocre Spell Resistance.

Any party worth its salt would just dogpile an Asperim and would likely kill it in a round, maybe before it even got a single spell off.

I'd be tempted to give it _project image_, so it can "appear" before the party and torment them without them being able to harm it... until they hunt the little blighter out and wreak their revenge! Failing that, maybe _stoneskin_?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 14, 2009)

Pardon, where's the _blur_ and _mirror image_ come from? I don't remember them being on AD&D's standard list of devil spell abilities (I can remember alter self, teleport w/o error, illusion & cause fear, but not those two). Might just be my memory playing tricks with me.



demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to small. And the low AC is compensated for a bit by SLAs like blur and mirror image. A bit. We might want to raise it a bit towards the end of the process if we think it's a glaring oversight.


----------



## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

Mirror image is right here, bold added.  Maybe blur is renamed, don't remember.



> The Asperim, if asked for information, will always direct the party along the worst possible path. They will not give the same answer twice in a row to the same question. The Asperim have all the spells normal to devils except Fear (since they do not want victims to run in panic). In addition, the Asperim have the following spells: Erase, Nystul’s Magic Aura, Shocking Grasp, Ventriloquism, Audible Glamer, Fools Gold, Forget, Invisibility, *Mirror Image*, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Slow, Confusion, Fumble, Polymorph Other, Feeblemind, Transmute Rock to Mud, Reverse Gravity, and Otto’s Irresistible Dance. All spells are cast as a l0th-level Magic-User.




Regarding Dex and AC, I think the Dex should be no more than 15 based on advancement in size from the standard imp, but imps also don't have great stats, so I think 13 is fine.  Let's leave the AC low and see if it looks like a problem later.


----------



## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

I'd recommend retaining the following from the standard imp:

Damage reduction 5/good or silver (probably change the "or" to an "and")
Fast healing 2 (probably boost to 3)
Immunity to poison
Resistance to fire 5 (probably boost to 10)

Shall we retain the imp's wings/fly speed?

I'd recommend boosting the spell resistance to the devil standard (CR+12)

I agree we should give them some sort of standard attack.  Claw, or tail sting like standard imp?


----------



## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

Agreed to all that.  For the natural attack, I think I like a weak claw or two.


----------



## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I moved some of the SLAs to 3/day or 1/day, depending on their power level.

I borrowed the forget conversion from the bane minions we did long ago.

We still need fool's gold and forget.  Didn't we deal with forget awhile back, using a limited form of modify memory?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 14, 2009)

I do remember we did a forget conversion, but ironically I don't remember for what.

I misspoke on blur, certainly. But if it has 10 HD, it's going to need better natural armor and/or Dex. Agreed to the "and" on the DR.


----------



## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

The SLAs look fine to me.

You mean you borrowed the fumble conversion?

Forget is probably pretty similar to the seelie spell of forgetting. Maybe we can look up fool's gold this weekend...


----------



## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Found it!

Forget (Sp): Three times per day, a young or older mithril dragon may permanently remove a specific memory from a single creature. This functions as the modify memory spell, but can only be used to eliminate all memory of an event the subject actually experienced. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.


----------



## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

Ah ha!


----------



## Cleon (Aug 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'd recommend retaining the following from the standard imp:
> 
> Damage reduction 5/good or silver (probably change the "or" to an "and")
> Fast healing 2 (probably boost to 3)
> ...




Most of that looks like a good idea to me, with the following caveats:

I would suggest Fast Healing at least 5, since it has 10 Hit Dice to a standard Imp's 3.

Don't like the idea of adding wings & a fly speed. Their description and modus operandi makes me imagine them as looking & acting like a Gremlin in a Warner Bros cartoon.

I'd give them 2 claw attacks, like a Mephit.


----------



## freyar (Aug 15, 2009)

Fast healing 5 is fine by me, especially since the regular imp is actually 3HD.

I could go either way on flight, I guess, but I do lean toward no flight since that's the original stats.

Here's fool's gold from a reference list I have:


> Fool's Gold (Alteration)
> Range: 10’ Components: V, S, M
> Duration: 6 turns/lvl Casting Time: 1 round
> Area of Effect: 1’ cubic /lvl Saving Throw: Special
> ...


----------



## Cleon (Aug 16, 2009)

freyar said:


> Fast healing 5 is fine by me, especially since the regular imp is actually 3HD.




That was just a typo, I must have hit the wrong key when I aimed for the 3.

EDIT post #162 - delete '5' - insert '3' - SAVE. There you go, I don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Updated.

Shall we make fool's gold a unique illusion SLA, or is there something similar we can reference?


----------



## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

I can't think of any similar ability or spell, though my knowledge is far from encyclopedic.  A unique SLA makes sense.  Let's also drop most of the cold iron stuff (like all the powdered gems, etc).  Here's a draft:

Fool's Gold (Sp): X times/day, an asperim can create an illusion causing up to 4000 copper coins or 80 pounds of brass items to appear to be gold.  Anyone who interacts with the fool's gold items receives a DC X Will save to disbelieve the illusion. In addition, if the fool's gold is struck with cold iron, there is a 10%? chance it will revert to its true state.  This is the equivalent of a X level spell.  The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +X racial bonus.


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Looks pretty good.  How about allowing an Appraise check in place of the Will save if the viewer has ranks?


----------



## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

Nice idea, sure!  You think 1/day, 10%, +2 racial bonus, 2nd or 3rd level spell?  The illusion should also expire after a while, say 1 day?

Fool's Gold (Sp): One time/day, an asperim can create an illusion causing up to 4000 copper coins or 80 pounds of brass items to appear to be gold for 24 hours. Anyone who interacts with the fool's gold items receives a DC X Will save to disbelieve the illusion. An Appraise check may be used to substitute for the Will save.  In addition, if the fool's gold is struck with cold iron, there is a 10% chance it will revert to its true state. This is the equivalent of a 3rd level spell. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

24-hour duration sounds good...just enough time to try to spend it.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

Not a fan of the 10% chance. Perhaps the touch of cold iron acts like a targeted dispel magic, CL 5th?


----------



## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Hmm, that seems like a big chance to dispel if this is CL 5.  Or are we assuming CL 10 like the other SLAs?  If so, that's fine, and we should specify CL.

A bit odd that the original spell seems to be transmutation rather than illusion.  Also, FYI, if it's important, the old edition spell is 2nd level.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

I was assuming CL 10th for the fool's gold.


----------



## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Let's try this.

Fool's Gold (Sp): One time/day, an asperim can create an illusion causing up to 4000 copper coins or 80 pounds of brass items to appear to be gold for 24 hours. Anyone who interacts with the fool's gold items receives a DC 21 Will save to disbelieve the illusion. An Appraise check may be used to substitute for the Will save. In addition, striking a piece of fool's gold acts as dispel magic on the illusion (for that piece of metal only) at caster level 5. This is the equivalent of a 3rd level spell. Caster level 10th.  The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.


----------



## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

Let's go with 2nd-level spell.

Updated.



> Asperim have a 70% chance of gating in 1-3 Imps, the only creatures who can stand to be in the company of the Asperim for any length of time.




Like so?

Summon Imps (Sp): Once per day an asperim can attempt to summon 1d3 imps with a 70% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell.

+5 natural armor like the imp?

Skills: 11 at 13 ranks
Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Perform (comedy), Sleight of Hand...

Feats: 4
Quicken SLA (ventriloquism)?


----------



## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Shouldn't the fool's gold DC be 19 with a +2 racial bonus?  Or do we want to drop that?  I worry that the Appraise check will likely beat that DC17 too easily, though.

EDIT: 

Summon looks good.

+5 natural is ok with me unless we want to stick to the poor original AC.

Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Forgery, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Perform (comedy), Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot?
I seem to recall a racial penalty to Diplomacy was also in the cards. -8 to overcome that Cha bonus?

Quicken SLA (ventriloquism), Weapon Finesse?, Improved Initiative, Ability Focus (take your pick?)


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

Weapon Finesse isn't worth it. Empower SLA (mirror image) is, though.


----------



## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

Let's swap Tumble for Spellcraft, since they don't actually cast spells and need the defensive help.

For Ability Focus, how about Forget?

Updated.


CR 8?

Advancement: 11-20 HD (Small)?

In its natural form, an asperim stands x feet tall and weighs about x pounds.


----------



## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

That's all fine.  I still think the racial bonus hasn't been added to the fool's gold DC, though we can drop it if you want.  Or raise it.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2009)

CR 7, I think. They've got some mean SLAs but are squishy. Really squishy.


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 19, 2009)

I know that there are variant imps but forgot which book. Realms? Eberron? (It has variant homunculi already.)

Oh, and little sidebar, thanks for briging up Fool's Gold. I wanted that as a SLA for a homebrew pyrite dragon, pyrite being the real fool's gold.


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> I know that there are variant imps but forgot which book. Realms? Eberron? (It has variant homunculi already.)




The best of the best...Fiend Folio.  

Updated.

Suggested height/weight?


----------



## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

3 and a half feet, maybe 40-50 lb?  They're "squat," so I think they should be kind of heavy.


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

Updated (now with flavor text).


----------



## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

Looks good!  Done?


----------



## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

I think so!

*Apollyon *(from the Greek-destroyer)
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 9”/18”
HIT DICE: 15
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws/1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: + 1 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The Apollyon are the servants of Death. They number 15, each indistinguishable from the other. An Apollyon appears as a ten-foot-tall, gaunt humanoid covered with gray, scaly skin. It is hairless and sexless. Ivory fangs protrude from its mouth; its fingers end in adamantine ebony talons. Its eyes glow like smoldering coals. Two huge, bat-like wings grow out of its back.

An Apollyon’s eyes act as a death ray, causing 1-100 points of damage (% with save versus death). Wounds from its talons will not close unless cured. In addition to the 1-6 points damage of the initial claw hit, the wound will bleed for an automatic 1-4 points until a heal spell or potion is applied.

An Apollyon fang bite is poisonous. The initial bite does 1-8 points damage. If a save versus poison is not made, the victim will take 1-8 additional points every round until he is either dead or cured by a Cleric. The Apollyon serve as Death’s messengers and guardians of the outer realms of the Dead Lands. Outside of the Dead Lands, Apollyon always appear alone. One may be sent as a servant from Death to an individual who continues to send Death an influx of new subjects. An Apollyon may also be sent to guard any treasure Death finds offensive (for example, a Rod of Resurrection).

The Apollyon rarely speak and when they do, their voices are harsh from lack of practice. Death grants them limited initiative. Because of their service to Death, the Apollyon often have knowledge of things hidden to mortals. They may offer a party advice or directions, if they deem such advice or directions to be in Death’s favor. The Apollyon, in melee, need never check morale, as they have no fear of dying.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #42 (1980).


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 20, 2009)

Ooh, a Large outsider with a death ray like the catoblepas, and a poisonous bite and lethal claws to boot! Totally bad-ass for a neutral being!


----------



## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Indeed.  And it fits in nicely with campaign setting like the Forgotten Realms that have non-evil death deities (like Kelemvor).


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2009)

These guys are awesome. May I petition, though? Keep the death ray doing 1d100 damage, rather than having it a save or die. The damage is much cooler--more unique.


----------



## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Yes, I was thinking it sounded like 3.5 disintegrate...


----------



## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> These guys are awesome. May I petition, though? Keep the death ray doing 1d100 damage, rather than having it a save or die. The damage is much cooler--more unique.






Shade said:


> Yes, I was thinking it sounded like 3.5 disintegrate...




Good call.  And how often do you get to roll d% for damage?


----------



## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Based on its HD, role, and general shape, I think we can look to the nabassu and sorrowsworn demons for ability score inspiration.

Mature Nabassu: 15 HD, Str 28, Dex 20, Con 28, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 23
Sorrowsworn Demon: 18 HD, Str 29, Dex 17, Con 32, Int 20, Wis 22, Cha 21

Int is Very (11-12), and they aren't SLA-reliant, so maybe...

Str 28, Dex 19, Con 30, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15?


----------



## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

Sounds good.


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 20, 2009)

Yup; they're not very charming creatures so that low Cha is justified.  I'm thinking of them as dour angels of death.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> These guys are awesome. May I petition, though? Keep the death ray doing 1d100 damage, rather than having it a save or die. The damage is much cooler--more unique.




I thought it was 1-100 damage *and* save versus death. These are a personification of death, after all.

I wonder whether they cry "Fatality" when they shoot out their kill-beams?

They do look a bit fragile - AC 4, no spell resistance and +1 weapons to hit? Surely they'll need a boost there.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 21, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> Yup; they're not very charming creatures so that low Cha is justified.  I'm thinking of them as dour angels of death.




Since I thing their death ray should include a save vs death, it would probably be Charisma-based so Cha 15 would cut its save DC. Although a lowish Charisma does seem appropriate given their description. Maybe they have a racial bonus to Death-effect DCs, being servants of death and all?

Int 12 seems very low though, but I guess if Death deliberately limits their intelligence it's not unreasonable.

I'd prefer a higher Wisdom though, to reflect their "knowledge of things hidden to mortals" and give them a boost to tracking down souls.

Maybe Int 12, Wis 21, Cha 15


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2009)

Yeah, I was operating under the assumption that the death ray had a Cha based DC, so I'd prefer that was higher. Adding DR and SR seems like a given, really.


----------



## freyar (Aug 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah, I was operating under the assumption that the death ray had a Cha based DC, so I'd prefer that was higher. Adding DR and SR seems like a given, really.



Could be Con-based, but Cha-based does seem more normal.

SR and DR sound appropriate, yes.

I can see the case for higher Wis and Cha, but it's weird to go higher with the Int 12 handed to us.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2009)

They can be not-too-bright, but insightful, strong-willed and deeply, deeply terrifying.


----------



## Shade (Aug 21, 2009)

Indeed.  So Str 28, Dex 19, Con 30, Int 12, Wis 21, Cha 22?


----------



## freyar (Aug 21, 2009)

Seems to fit!


----------



## Shade (Aug 21, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Manueverabilty?

Natural armor bonus?

DR 10/??


----------



## freyar (Aug 21, 2009)

I'd say average or good flight, leaning toward good.  This is pit fiend/balor/erinyes/succubus-like, which is the vibe I get from these in terms of wings.

Comparable HD outsiders seem to have natural AC in the +16 to +20 range.  If we want to go with the "low AC" vibe, maybe +15?

Well, alignment-based DR is right out.  Maybe adamantine to make them a bit unique?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'd say average or good flight, leaning toward good.  This is pit fiend/balor/erinyes/succubus-like, which is the vibe I get from these in terms of wings.
> 
> Comparable HD outsiders seem to have natural AC in the +16 to +20 range.  If we want to go with the "low AC" vibe, maybe +15?
> 
> Well, alignment-based DR is right out.  Maybe adamantine to make them a bit unique?




That all sounds good to me. The DR would agree with their "adamantine ebony talons" too.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 22, 2009)

I like DR/adamantine and good maneuverability. 

I should also point out that the hp is currently all sorts of wrong. You've given them 30 HP due to Con, when they should have 150!


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 23, 2009)

My first impulse was DR/silver but adamantine works out perfectly. Good flight maneuverability too.


----------



## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> Comparable HD outsiders seem to have natural AC in the +16 to +20 range.  If we want to go with the "low AC" vibe, maybe +15?




Sure, as it will balance out the great DR and high hit points.



freyar said:


> Well, alignment-based DR is right out.  Maybe adamantine to make them a bit unique?




Absolutely.   As an aside, since they are exemplars of death, perhaps they suffer some negative effects from life-giving or sustaining magics?



Cleon said:


> That all sounds good to me. The DR would agree with their "adamantine ebony talons" too.




Indeed.  Speaking of which, it sounds like their talons should be treated as adamantine weapons for the purposes of overcoming DR.



demiurge1138 said:


> I should also point out that the hp is currently all sorts of wrong. You've given them 30 HP due to Con, when they should have 150!




I'm not sure where that came from...it's fixed now.

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

Yes, I like the adamantine claws.

Tomb-tainted, then?  That sounds reasonable.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 25, 2009)

Agreed to adamantine claws and tomb tainted.


----------



## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

Modifying the catoblepas' death ray...

Death Ray (Su):  An apollyon can project a thin, gray ray up to 100 feet from its eyes. Any living creature struck by this ray takes 1d100 points of damage (Fort DC x half). After striking one target, the ray dissipates and cannot be used again for 1d4 rounds.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

Looks good.  Do we need to remind people about death from massive damage?


----------



## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

If you'd like.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 26, 2009)

Shade said:


> Indeed.  Speaking of which, it sounds like their talons should be treated as adamantine weapons for the purposes of overcoming DR.




I was assuming they would be.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 26, 2009)

Shade said:


> Modifying the catoblepas' death ray...
> 
> Death Ray (Su):  An apollyon can project a thin, gray ray up to 100 feet from its eyes. Any living creature struck by this ray takes 1d100 points of damage (Fort DC x half). After striking one target, the ray dissipates and cannot be used again for 1d4 rounds.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




My preference is for throwing in a "save or die" in there, and some mention of the ranged touch attack bonus of the ray.

Hmm, that's odd, the original doesn't list a range. Well, 100 feet is reasonable in comparison to a finger of death spell. I'm a bit uncertain about the "once every 1d4 round" bit. A Bodak can death-gaze every round if it wants to, after all. Still, it would encourage the Appolyon to use its other offensive abilities instead of spamming kill-beams all the time.

So, I was thinking of something like:
*Death Ray (Su):* An apollyon can project a thin, gray ray from its eyes with a range of up to 100 feet. The first living creature struck by this ray (+X ranged touch) takes 1d100 points of damage and must succeed at a DCX Fortitude save or die instantly. The save DC is Charisma-based.​I would have no objection to putting the 1d4 round thing back in, but am fairly committed to the save-or-die.


----------



## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm not a fan of the save or die; in this case, the damage should be enough.

Now I would be quite happy if we made it work like disintegrate, whereupon if enough damage is taken to kill the victim, then their body is destroyed or some other "eternal death" type effect.

I'll go with the majority on this one, though.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 26, 2009)

Don't like save or die on this one--I like the straight damage. And I thought that the majority had already come out in favor of it. The ray acting like a death effect for the purposes of spells makes sense and would make it harder to come back from (resurrect, instead of raise/reincarnate), but we could make it worse and have it only be miracle/wish.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Don't like save or die on this one--I like the straight damage. And I thought that the majority had already come out in favor of it. The ray acting like a death effect for the purposes of spells makes sense and would make it harder to come back from (resurrect, instead of raise/reincarnate), but we could make it worse and have it only be miracle/wish.




Making the victim harder to bring back to life's a good idea, maybe require a level check vs DCX for the cleric casting the _resurrection_?


----------



## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Making the victim harder to bring back to life's a good idea, maybe require a level check vs DCX for the cleric casting the _resurrection_?




I like it.   It can symbolize the caster battling against "Death's grip".  

So...

Death Ray (Su): An apollyon can project a thin, gray ray up to 100 feet from its eyes. Any living creature struck by this ray takes 1d100 points of damage (Fort DC x half). After striking one target, the ray dissipates and cannot be used again for 1d4 rounds.  This is a death effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based. 

Death's grip is so strong on those slain by one of his apollyon's death rays that a DC X caster level check is required to restore life via raise dead, ressurrection, and similar life-restoring magic.

Look OK?


----------



## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

That's good, but note that raise dead doesn't work because this is a death effect.  So we should take out the raise dead reference.


----------



## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

DC 25 for the caster level check?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 26, 2009)

Sure. DC 25 sounds pretty good.


----------



## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

Why the fixed DC and not Charisma-based?  I agree with the number, approximately, but I wonder about the philosophy.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 26, 2009)

Shade said:


> Death Ray (Su): An apollyon can project a thin, gray ray up to 100 feet from its eyes. Any living creature struck by this ray takes 1d100 points of damage (Fort DC x half). After striking one target, the ray dissipates and cannot be used again for 1d4 rounds.  This is a death effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> Death's grip is so strong on those slain by one of his apollyon's death rays that a DC X caster level check is required to restore life via raise dead, ressurrection, and similar life-restoring magic.
> 
> Look OK?






Shade said:


> DC 25 for the caster level check?




Works for me, and DC 25 is a good fit to the Apollyon's 15 hit dice.

Hmm, that suggests we could say DC 10 + Hit Dice, thus:

Death's grip is so strong on those slain by one of his apollyon's death rays that a DC 25 caster level check (10 plus the apollyon's Hit Dice) is required to restore life via _resurrection_, and similar life-restoring magic.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> Why the fixed DC and not Charisma-based?  I agree with the number, approximately, but I wonder about the philosophy.




Well, caster level checks often don't get an ability modifier,  so it makes sense the target DC doesn't either, like with Spell Resistance.


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 27, 2009)

DC 25 to successfully bring back to life someone killed by one of these death angel types. That is sooo bad, I like it. So imagine how high the DC would be if an _advanced_ apollyon did it.


----------



## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.



> An Apollyon fang bite is poisonous. The initial bite does 1-8 points damage. If a save versus poison is not made, the victim will take 1-8 additional points every round until he is either dead or cured by a Cleric.




Should we expand bleeding wounds to cover the bite, or maybe some variation of the clay golem's cursed wound ability?



> They number 15, each indistinguishable from the other.






> The Apollyon serve as Death’s messengers and guardians of the outer realms of the Dead Lands. Outside of the Dead Lands, Apollyon always appear alone.




Organizaton:  Solitary or x (2-15) [the latter being only on their home plane]



> The Apollyon rarely speak and when they do, their voices are harsh from lack of practice.




Apollyon speak x in harsh voices, but rarely do so.



> Death grants them limited initiative. Because of their service to Death, the Apollyon often have knowledge of things hidden to mortals. They may offer a party advice or directions, if they deem such advice or directions to be in Death’s favor.




Add Knowledge to their skills?



> The Apollyon, in melee, need never check morale, as they have no fear of dying.




Immunity to fear effects?


----------



## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

Shade said:


> Should we expand bleeding wounds to cover the bite, or maybe some variation of the clay golem's cursed wound ability?



Bleeding wounds fits the original text better, though I do find the cursed wound appealing.  Hmm.



> Organizaton:  Solitary or x (2-15) [the latter being only on their home plane]



Sounds right.  Murder like ravens?  Or something more neutral, like "cemetery"?



> Apollyon speak x in harsh voices, but rarely do so.



 Common, I guess, maybe an alignment language or two?


> Add Knowledge to their skills?
> ...
> Immunity to fear effects?




Yes and yes.



RavinRay said:


> DC 25 to successfully bring back to life someone killed by one of these death angel types. That is sooo bad, I like it. So imagine how high the DC would be if an _advanced_ apollyon did it.




That's the thing: a static DC isn't going to increase with advancement, and what we have now is really kind of nonstandard.  Or are we treating the apollyon as taking 10 on an opposed CL=HD caster level check?


----------



## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

freyar - As odd as it seems, caster level checks are generally arbitrary.  Check out mummy rot and the cursed wound of the clay golem.  Neither appear to be based on ability scores.


----------



## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

Shade said:


> freyar - As odd as it seems, caster level checks are generally arbitrary.  Check out mummy rot and the cursed wound of the clay golem.  Neither appear to be based on ability scores.



True that.  I guess this is some minor weirdness of 3.X that I might wish Pathfinder would fix but probably won't.   Anyway, it all seems fine.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 27, 2009)

Make the bite both wounding and cursed. Agreed to immune to fear (and death effects) and Knowledge skills added to their class list. 

Perhaps Draconic, Celestial and Infernal as their languages?


----------



## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 9 at 18 ranks
Knowlede (any x)... 

Feats: 6
Multiattack, Track?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 27, 2009)

Shade said:


> Should we expand bleeding wounds to cover the bite, or maybe some variation of the clay golem's cursed wound ability?




Well the description would suggest bleeding wounds at X damage per round until a cure wounds spell or Heal check is made to stop it. There's nothing to suggest a Clay Golem's ability to prevent wounds healing.



Shade said:


> Organizaton:  Solitary or x (2-15) [the latter being only on their home plane]




What's the collective noun for a group of Appolyon's? A mortality of Appolyon's? A fatality? A mortuary?



Shade said:


> Apollyon speak x in harsh voices, but rarely do so.




For some reason I imagine them as having a _tongues_-like ability to speak the language of all mortal beings, although all they usually have to say is "you're going to die".



Shade said:


> Add Knowledge to their skills?




But what kind of Knowledge, Knowledge (religion), since that covers undead and funerary practices?

So, how about its other skills.

Spot, Listen and Search?

Survival, to track down those fated to die?

Intimidate and Sense Motive? These things are likely to be scary and difficult to mislead.

That's seven skills, which still leaves us two. Are Appolyon's sneaky? If they are death which creeps up unawares we could add Move Silently and Hide.

So, put those all together and we get 18 ranks apiece in:

Knowledge (religion), Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival

Will that do?



Shade said:


> Immunity to fear effects?




That seems reasonable.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 28, 2009)

Feats, feats... how do Ability Focus (death ray), Combat Expertise, Flyby Attack, Improved Critical (claw), Multiattack, Track sound?


----------



## freyar (Aug 28, 2009)

Languages, skills, and feats all seem good to me.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 28, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Feats, feats... how do Ability Focus (death ray), Combat Expertise, Flyby Attack, Improved Critical (claw), Multiattack, Track sound?




Those look fine to me. At first I wasn't so sure about Combat Expertise, but it will help compensate for the Apollyon's mediocre AC.


----------



## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

Updated.

Anyone else up for tongues?  Cleon's got me convinced.

Environment: Home plane of a death deity?

Challenge Rating: 14

Advancement: 16-30 HD (Large); 31-45 HD (Huge)?

An apollyon stands 10 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


----------



## freyar (Aug 31, 2009)

Tongues makes sense to me, as long as no one objects.

The rest sounds fine.  Environment could included Material, but that's already noted in the flavor.

1000 lb, similar to hill giants?


----------



## freyar (Aug 31, 2009)

Double post!


----------



## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

That'll probably work.  Although they are described as "gaunt", and are a bit shorter than hill giants, they do have massive wings.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

I'd say CR 15. They've got lots o' hit points. I'd also suggest including their death ray in their attacks line--it is a ranged touch attack, right?


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Updated.

Thinking about these fellas last night, perhaps we could add a continuous deathwatch ability to jazz 'em up a tad?


----------



## freyar (Sep 1, 2009)

We could go down to 900 lb if you want.

Deathwatch always on makes a lot of sense.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

I like both 900 pounds and deathwatch.


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

updated.

Anything else before moving on?


----------



## freyar (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm ready for the next one.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

It should be "ranged" touch attacks, not "range", but other than that, I think we're good to go.


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Fixed, and next!

*Chemosit*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 9./24.
HIT DICE: 4 + 1
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: Special
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite or 1 claw
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 or 2-7
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Never surprised; also as per normal demons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: V/245 + 5/hp

An aggressive, fearless, speech-using, carnivorous minor demon. The chemosit can see all hidden or invisible beings within 60’, and its mouth emits light equal to a continual light spell. It is likely that a powerful sorcerer could make use of a chemosit for attacking his enemies, carrying messages, and so forth.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #122 (1987).

I found some mythological information here:
Chemosit, Africa's Bigfoot


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

Chemosit is another name for the dreaded Nandi bear, a creature that prefers to eat human brains and is something like a bear, something like a baboon and something like a hyena. We could keep it a demon, but we should incorporate more Nandi bear mythology (the brain eating, the physical appearance [which we aren't given]). Maybe strip out the cone of light coming from its mouth--never heard that in any of the original legends. It even specifically only hunts on moonless nights.


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2009)

Here's some more text and the illo from the article...



> Mode's surprise might have been even greater had he met the chemosit of East Africa. The chemosit is described as part human and part bird. It has one leg and nine buttocks. Its red mouth shines like a lamp at night. Whatever else it may be, the chemosit is unquestionably a new being in distinct visual form. Not only that, but the name chemosit is also given to an animal that seems to be an amalgam of ape and hyena. (We will meet this second manifestation of the chemosit later in this article.)




And later...



> Conventional zoological wisdom tells us that there are no bears in Africa. What, then, is the nandi -- a marauder that has harassed East African shepherds for centuries? Lacking other terms of reference, Africans who have encountered the nandi say it looks like an overgrown hyena. But when photographs of bears are shown to these witnesses, they invariably change their mind. Indeed, one variant of the chemosit is the duba, whose name is Arabic for "bear." Although it is a huge, fearsome creature, the nandi/duba appears to confine its depredations to domestic animals.






> The chemosit, also called the getiet, is an altogether different case. As mentioned earlier, there are two versions of the chemosit. The half-man, half-bird monster mentioned in the introduction is more of a demon than a natural creature. The other version is a rapacious predator that seems part-hyena, part ape, and 100% deadly. Entire villages have reportedly fled the fury of the chemosit, which has the unsavory habit of tearing off the tops of its victims' skulls and dining on the exposed brain. In its own way, this second version of the chemosit may be even more demonic than the first.




Here's the getiet...

GETIET
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (10% of 1-4)
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 12&#148;
HIT DICE: 5 +2
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: D (only in lairs with
more than one getiet)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite and 2 claws
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-9/1-6/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Crushing
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised on a 1
(1d6)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: V/300 + 6/hp

A fearless, aggressive, speech-using maneater. This ugly and obnoxious beast kills for pleasure, and a single individual may attack an entire village and its people. If both claw attacks hit a single victim, the getiet may crush the victim, doing an additional 2-8 hp damage. The getiet is disliked even by other monsters, as it will attack anything -- though it is not as stupid as a dingonek. A getiet may ambush its victims (though it generally dislikes being subtle), and it often harasses larger monsters simply for the pleasure of seeing their frustration.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 2, 2009)

OK, so the one with the light is the man-bird thing. Interesting. So we'll convert them both?


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2009)

Indeed.  Sure, let's do 'em both.   And we'll make sure to note in the getiere entry that it is called by other names.


----------



## freyar (Sep 2, 2009)

The man-bird light-mouth is really weird.  9 buttocks? 

Stick to 4HD?  The +1 suggests a decent Con, maybe 14-17ish.  Tanar'ri or not?  I kind of think generic demon.


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2009)

freyar said:


> The man-bird light-mouth is really weird.  9 buttocks?




Once again proving that real-world mythology is weirder than anything D&D can come up with on its own.  

That reminds me of an old South Park episode where the Dr.Moreau-like guy offers to "put a few more asses on that swine of yours."  



freyar said:


> Stick to 4HD?  The +1 suggests a decent Con, maybe 14-17ish.  Tanar'ri or not?  I kind of think generic demon.




Well, "also as per normal demons" would seem to hint at tanar'ri traits, if not the subtype.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> Well, "also as per normal demons" would seem to hint at tanar'ri traits, if not the subtype.




Okay, so we're doing an Evil Outsider bird-man chemosit/geteit first, and then do the Nandi bear/hyena version, which could be treated as a particularly nasty Magical Beast?

Going by the write-up it's a very minor demon, no nastier than a Dretch. It doesn't even have any resistance to mundane weapons!

I don't think it's a Tanar'ri, just one of the innumerable other CE creatures that go bump in the night.

Some of its stats seem pretty obvious:

Medium sized Outsider (Evil, Chaotic), but is it Extraplanar or Natural. Presumably Extraplanar if it really is a demon.

For 'demon defences" I suppose a Dretch's are a good start - Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10 and fire 10, plus throw in spell resistance of 12 or so  for the original's 10% MR. Might toss out the immunity to electricity.

I'm tempted to give it at-will _flare_ as a Spell-Like Ability, so it can use its "shining mouth" to dazzle its victims, plus maybe some other light-power.

Its 2-7 damage claw and 1-6 damage bite suggests the claw is its primary attack.

Do we give it a full attack of bite or claw like the original, or bite *and* claw? I'd prefer bite and claw, it's got little enough going for it as it is.

Now, what ability scores to give it? I'm thinking something around a gargoyle's stats and mental stats, except with a good Dex and average-ish Con and a Dretch's 11 Charisma rather than a gargoyle's 7. I imagine it as an agile but not exceptionally tough flier. That works out about:

Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 11

Not spectacular, it's definitely near the bottom of the demonic pecking order.


----------



## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

Agreed, definitely pretty minor.  Though, with that line Shade pointed out, maybe it should be a tannar'ri.  Also, absolutely extraplanar.

If we don't keep the tannar'ri subtype, resistances probably only 5 for the low HD.  DR looks fine.

Something like flare as an Su from the light, I think, not a Sp, but it's a good idea.

Bite and claw, definitely.

Abilities look fine.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 3, 2009)

I think we can think of this as a tanar'ri, albeit a weak one.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

freyar said:


> Agreed, definitely pretty minor.  Though, with that line Shade pointed out, maybe it should be a tannar'ri.  Also, absolutely extraplanar.
> 
> If we don't keep the tannar'ri subtype, resistances probably only 5 for the low HD.  DR looks fine.
> 
> ...




Making its mouth-glow a Supernatural ability is a good idea (gives out light like a bullseye lantern, can use flare at-will? maybe quickened 3/day?)

I'm fine either way on the Tanar'ri / nameless fiend question, I'll leave it up to you lot. I don't fancy a dretch's immunity to lightning though, it just feels wrong.

So far we've got:

Chemosit
Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
*Hit Dice:* 4d8+8 (26 hp)
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +4/+6
*Attack:* Claw +6 melee (1d6+2)
*Full Attack:* Claw +6 melee (1d6+2) and bite +1 melee (1d6+2)
*Space/Reach:* 5ft./5ft.
*Special Attacks:* Mouth-lamp
*Special Qualities:* Damage reduction 5/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10 and fire 10, spell resistance 12
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 11
*Feats:* 2
*Skills:* 42 skill points (i.e. 6 skills maxed to 7)

Hmm, what other obvious stats are their?

*Speed* 20 ft. on land, plus fly 70 ft., with good manoeuvrability?
*Environment* of Warm forest or Abyss?
*Feats* of Ability Focus (mouth lamp) and Flyby Attack?
*Skills* should probably include Hide & Move Silently for stealth and Listen & Spot for general perception, if it's used as a scout & spy Bluff, Survival, Search and Sense Motive would be useful. I'm thinking it would have a good racial bonus to Spot since its part bird. Maybe it's part owl, and has a good bonus to Listen too!

Since it can talk it'll need languages as well. The SRD demons' Abyssal, Celestial and Draconic seem inappropriate, how about Abyssal, Common and either Draconic or Sylvan?

Oh, and the description says "The chemosit can see all hidden or invisible beings within 60’." That suggests it either has _see invisibility_ as a special quality plus a really impressive Spot skill or 60 foot blindsight as a Special Quality.

It reads more like blindsight to me.


----------



## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Let's stick with the "demon standard" of spell resistance equal to CR+8, as well as standard demon languages.

See invisibility (and true seeing) are rather common "special visions" for evil outsiders, so let's go the see invisibility, rather than blindsight, route.

For the "mouth-lamp", I like the concept of it functioning as flare, and I could see it always being a free action, since it sounds like it is always "on" as long as it simply opens its mouth.

I definitely agree with the racial bonus to Listen and Spot (since it is "Never surprised").   Probably Improved Initiative as a bonus feat as well.


----------



## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

Agreed to Listen/Spot and Imp Init as a bonus feat.  See invisibility is also what I thought.

Maybe this for the mouth lamp?

"Mouth-Lamp" (Su): The open mouth of a chemosit sheds light as a bullseye lantern (clear illumination in a 60 ft cone and shadowy illumination in a 120 ft cone).  The chemosit may suppress or resume this illumination as a free action by closing or opening its mouth.  Creatures within the area of clear illumination when the chemosit first opens its mouth must make a DC X Fortitude save or be dazzled for 1 minute.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

I like it.  Updated.

Skills: 6 at 7 ranks
Cleon suggested Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival.  I'm fine with all those, but would probably drop Sense Motive as they strike me more as observers and relayers of messengers than actual diplomats/interpreters of messages.

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), 2 more
Cleon suggested Ability Focus (mouth lamp) and Flyby Attack.


----------



## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

I agree with dropping Sense Motive, and the rest seems great!  

Are we going to give them summon tanar'ri?  If so, something pretty weak, like 1 dretch at 35% or something.

CR 3 at most, I guess.

200 lb?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 4, 2009)

Man, these are shaping up nicely without me. I don't think they should summon anything, personally.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 4, 2009)

freyar said:


> Agreed to Listen/Spot and Imp Init as a bonus feat.  See invisibility is also what I thought.




Works for me.



freyar said:


> Maybe this for the mouth lamp?
> 
> "Mouth-Lamp" (Su): The open mouth of a chemosit sheds light as a bullseye lantern (clear illumination in a 60 ft cone and shadowy illumination in a 120 ft cone).  The chemosit may suppress or resume this illumination as a free action by closing or opening its mouth.  Creatures within the area of clear illumination when the chemosit first opens its mouth must make a DC X Fortitude save or be dazzled for 1 minute.  The save DC is Constitution-based.




I was thinking it shines its mouth-lamp in one creature's face per round as a free action, dazzling them for a minute if they fail a save. A 60 foot cone of dazzle is much more than I was hoping for, but since it only uses it once per battle I guess it's OK.

Unless you fancy combining the two?



freyar said:


> I agree with dropping Sense Motive, and the rest seems great!




My idea was, since I came up with 7 skills and it can max-out only 6, that it splits one "max skill" allocation between Bluff and Sense Motive. Say, Bluff 4 and Sense Motive 3.

I'm OK if no-one else likes the idea.



freyar said:


> Are we going to give them summon tanar'ri?  If so, something pretty weak, like 1 dretch at 35% or something.




I'll have to go for a no. No mention of summon ability in the original.

EDIT: Oops! missed the last line:



freyar said:


> 200 lb?




I was thinking they'd be lightweights, being flying half-birds and all. Say 120 pounds, maybe 150?

Although those nine buttocks might make them rather heavy in the backside.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 4, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Let's stick with the "demon standard" of spell resistance equal to CR+8, as well as standard demon languages.




The SR is OK by me I guess, although an extra point doesn't really hurt. I was just trying to be different with the languages, but I don't mind the standard ones.

I noticed a typo in the Homebrew though, there's a extraneous "a" in the description "_gives way to *a* nine humanoid buttocks_".

EDIT: Can we come up with something a bit more interesting than a "gang" for the collective noun?  Something playing with their avian & mouth-lamp traits nature. A clamour or flock or chemosit? A lightshow of chemosit?

A flare-flock? (Try saying that three times in a hurry.)

Can't come up with anything I really like.



Shade said:


> See invisibility (and true seeing) are rather common "special visions" for evil outsiders, so let's go the see invisibility, rather than blindsight, route




I mainly proposed blindsight to account for the "cannot Hide" bit of its uncanny vision. Maybe make it a supernatural ability which does not work against creatures & objects under _protection from evil_?

A continuous _true seeing_ would seem way too strong for a 4HD demon.


----------



## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Man, these are shaping up nicely without me. I don't think they should summon anything, personally.




Join me in my mantra:  _Fiends write themselves._ 



Cleon said:


> I was thinking it shines its mouth-lamp in one creature's face per round as a free action, dazzling them for a minute if they fail a save. A 60 foot cone of dazzle is much more than I was hoping for, but since it only uses it once per battle I guess it's OK.
> 
> Unless you fancy combining the two?




I like the 60-foot cone of dazzle, and don't feel it is inappropriate for its HD.   It's nice to see a cantrip get rolled into a breath weapon for a change.  



Cleon said:


> My idea was, since I came up with 7 skills and it can max-out only 6, that it splits one "max skill" allocation between Bluff and Sense Motive. Say, Bluff 4 and Sense Motive 3.
> 
> I'm OK if no-one else likes the idea.




I understand where you were coming from, but I'm just not feeling the Sense Motive vibe for these things.  If you really want it, we can replace Survival, since it offers them no benefit (they lack Track, and as outsiders, don't need to eat).



Cleon said:


> I'll have to go for a no. No mention of summon ability in the original.




I'm fine with dropping summons.



Cleon said:


> I was thinking they'd be lightweights, being flying half-birds and all. Say 120 pounds, maybe 150?
> 
> Although those nine buttocks might make them rather heavy in the backside.




Yeah, that junk in the trunk will get heavy.  Let's split the difference at 175.



Cleon said:


> EDIT: Can we come up with something a bit more interesting than a "gang" for the collective noun?  Something playing with their avian & mouth-lamp traits nature. A clamour or flock or chemosit? A lightshow of chemosit?
> 
> A flare-flock? (Try saying that three times in a hurry.)
> 
> Can't come up with anything I really like.




Sure.  "Gang" was just a placeholder from other demons.  I think flock fits 'em fine, though.



Cleon said:


> I mainly proposed blindsight to account for the "cannot Hide" bit of its uncanny vision. Maybe make it a supernatural ability which does not work against creatures & objects under _protection from evil_?
> 
> A continuous _true seeing_ would seem way too strong for a 4HD demon.




Indeed it would.  That's why we gave 'em a continuous see invisibility.  

Updated.

Advancement:  5-9 HD (Medium)?   This keeps them from overlapping with vrocks.


----------



## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

Hmm, since, as you point out, Survival doesn't do them much good, let's swap it for Sense Motive.  There is some flavor justification for that.

Advancement looks good.  

Then I suppose they're done.


----------



## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Updated.

Let's begin work on the getiere, but if anyone else has anything to add on the chemosit, we can look at it again.

*GETIET*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (10% of 1-4)
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 5 +2
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: D (only in lairs with
more than one getiet)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite and 2 claws
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-9/1-6/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Crushing
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised on a 1
(1d6)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: V/300 + 6/hp

A fearless, aggressive, speech-using maneater. This ugly and obnoxious beast kills for pleasure, and a single individual may attack an entire village and its people. If both claw attacks hit a single victim, the getiet may crush the victim, doing an additional 2-8 hp damage. The getiet is disliked even by other monsters, as it will attack anything -- though it is not as stupid as a dingonek. A getiet may ambush its victims (though it generally dislikes being subtle), and it often harasses larger monsters simply for the pleasure of seeing their frustration. 

And ...



> Conventional zoological wisdom tells us that there are no bears in Africa. What, then, is the nandi -- a marauder that has harassed East African shepherds for centuries? Lacking other terms of reference, Africans who have encountered the nandi say it looks like an overgrown hyena. But when photographs of bears are shown to these witnesses, they invariably change their mind. Indeed, one variant of the chemosit is the duba, whose name is Arabic for "bear." Although it is a huge, fearsome creature, the nandi/duba appears to confine its depredations to domestic animals.






> The chemosit, also called the getiet, is an altogether different case. As mentioned earlier, there are two versions of the chemosit. The half-man, half-bird monster mentioned in the introduction is more of a demon than a natural creature. The other version is a rapacious predator that seems part-hyena, part ape, and 100% deadly. Entire villages have reportedly fled the fury of the chemosit, which has the unsavory habit of tearing off the tops of its victims' skulls and dining on the exposed brain. In its own way, this second version of the chemosit may be even more demonic than the first.




Nandi Bear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

5HD magical beast?  Here are the 6HD brown beear abilities: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6.


----------



## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Magical beast sounds right.

I'm imagine illithids are not too fond of these creatures.


----------



## freyar (Sep 5, 2009)

Competition for fine dining! 

Just noticed the reference to the dingonek.  Are these from the same article?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 5, 2009)

Should the brain eating be flavor text or an ability? Grapple-> pin-> eat brains? 

Also, rend seems like a given here. Some sort of mimicry like a leucrotta, or do they just speak Common?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> I understand where you were coming from, but I'm just not feeling the Sense Motive vibe for these things.  If you really want it, we can replace Survival, since it offers them no benefit (they lack Track, and as outsiders, don't need to eat).




THUD! THUD!! THUDD!!!

Sorry, that was me just knocking my head on the desk. I put in Survival planning to give them Track as a bonus feat, but forgot to mention it.

There could always be a "Tracker" variety with Survival & Track instead of Flyby Attack & Sense Motive. The skill and feat selection  of the "standard chemosit" do not have to be set in stone.

175 pound weight is fine, as is the Advancement.

So it's probably good to go, I'll have a last check of the stats.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> 5HD magical beast?  Here are the 6HD brown beear abilities: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6.




Magical Beasts is a no-brainer p) and brown bear stats are a good basis.

But Geteit's are _smart_ - they talk and have average intelligence, so:

Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 6

I think the brain-eating is just what they do once they kill a victim, not a special attack. I agree with Rend, and was thinking they'd probably have some kind of critical attack bonus with their bite.


----------



## freyar (Sep 6, 2009)

Cleon said:


> THUD! THUD!! THUDD!!!
> 
> Sorry, that was me just knocking my head on the desk. I put in Survival planning to give them Track as a bonus feat, but forgot to mention it.
> 
> There could always be a "Tracker" variety with Survival & Track instead of Flyby Attack & Sense Motive. The skill and feat selection  of the "standard chemosit" do not have to be set in stone.




Customization is an underutilized part of 3.X monsters, I think.  But I'd be happy to give them Track as a bonus feat and swap Survival in for Sense Motive again.



Cleon said:


> Magical Beasts is a no-brainer p) and brown bear stats are a good basis.
> 
> But Geteit's are _smart_ - they talk and have average intelligence, so:
> 
> ...




Those abilities are fine by me!  Rend is also good.  I'm with Cleon, though; let's leave the brain eating as flavor and give the bite augmented critical.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm good on augmented critical. Perhaps it's a bonecrushing bite that does 1 point of Con damage on a crit, like one of the creodont conversions we did (I think it was Sarkastodon)?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> Customization is an underutilized part of 3.X monsters, I think.  But I'd be happy to give them Track as a bonus feat and swap Survival in for Sense Motive again.




That's my thinking too. It makes sense to have set Feats for creatures that operate mainly on instinct (Animals, Oozes etc) or are "engineered" that way (Constructs, some highly Lawful Outsiders) but for sapient creatures, especially Chaotic ones, you'd expect at least some to vary their selection.



freyar said:


> Those abilities are fine by me! [*SNIP*]




Here's a possible problem: The Nandi-Bear we're statting up is Medium-sized, right? A brown bear is Large, so isn't the Str a bit high, and maybe the Con?

Perhaps we should give it Str and Con that are the average of the Brown and the Medium-sized Black Bear? That seems about right, since Nandi Bears (4' shoulder, Medium size) seem a bit bigger than Black Bears (2.5-3' shoulder, 150-400 pounds, Medium size) but not as massive as Brown Bears (3-5', up to 1500 pounds, Large size).

That would make it:

Str 23, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 6

Probably weight 400-500 pounds?



freyar said:


> *SNIP* Rend is also good. I'm with Cleon, though; let's leave the brain eating as flavor and give the bite augmented critical.





demiurge1138 said:


> I'm good on augmented critical. Perhaps it's a bonecrushing bite that does 1 point of Con damage on a crit, like one of the creodont conversions we did (I think it was Sarkastodon)?




I'm fine with whatever you lot decide - wider critical (18-20?), higher critical (x3?), Con damage or a combination or them.


----------



## freyar (Sep 6, 2009)

Hmmm, adjusted abilities make sense, and you make a good case.  Sure.

If we can find that crit plus Con damage, let use that.  Possibly also a x3 multiplier.  Hmm.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 6, 2009)

Found it! Not quite what I was thinking, but close:

Bonecrushing Bite (Ex): Sarkastodon's jaws are immensely powerful, and can crush bone to pulp. On a successful critical hit, a Sarkastodon also deals 1d4 points of Strength damage.


----------



## freyar (Sep 6, 2009)

That could work, but Con does seem more appropriate here.  Maybe it does soft-tissue damage?

Or we could go for a vorpal bite.  That might fit with the brain-eating.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 8, 2009)

freyar said:


> That could work, but Con does seem more appropriate here.  Maybe it does soft-tissue damage?
> 
> Or we could go for a vorpal bite.  That might fit with the brain-eating.




Vorpal bite would be too much, methinks.

Just to throw out an idea, how about it has a "Brain Eating" special attack that, if it kills a creature with its bite attack (or uses a standard action to chomp a corpse's head) it automatically devours their brains, meaning the body is not complete enough for the _raise dead_ spell?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 8, 2009)

That brain eating sounds appropriate--I think it should be a standard action. Perhaps as a result of eating the brain, it gets some bonuses? Equivalent to a death knell perhaps--temp HP, bonus on attack rolls, that sort of thing.


----------



## Shade (Sep 8, 2009)

Let's make 'em Large, despite the "M" on the statblock.  For starters, they are often mistaken for bears.  Hyenas are Medium, and these are supposed to be "oversized hyenas".

Added to Homebrews, with the original Large ability scores.

Since they are only surprised on a "1", give 'em a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks?

Should bite swap places with claw as primary attack?


----------



## freyar (Sep 8, 2009)

I like Large and Brain Eating.  Racial bonus to Spot and Listen also sounds right.  And I agree that bite should be primary.  You want to get rid of Sarkastodon from the Devastating Bite, though.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2009)

I like them as Large, like the racial bonus to Spot and Listen, like bite as the primary attack. They should also get two claw attacks, not just one.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's make 'em Large, despite the "M" on the statblock.  For starters, they are often mistaken for bears.  Hyenas are Medium, and these are supposed to be "oversized hyenas".
> 
> Added to Homebrews, with the original Large ability scores.
> 
> ...




I have a slight preference for Medium, but Large is OK.

Bite should definitely be primary, and it needs a damage boost (1d10? 2d6?). I was even tempted to give it a dragon-style 1.5 times Strength bonus, but on reflection that doesn't seem necessary.

2 Claw attacks seem right to me.

I was assuming they'd have a sense skill bonus, maybe even more than +4 - say +6 or +8?

Since they're nocturnal, maybe Improved or Superior Low-Light Vision?

Devour Brain looks like it needs a little work. Shouldn't it be Supernatural not Extraordinar? I feel it also needs to make explicit it only works on a dead or dying target, something like:*Devour Brain (Ex):* A getiet may spend a standard action to devour the brain of a dying or recently dead (within 1 hour) victim. Against a dying victim this attack automatically does standard bite damage (1d8+8) and only succeeds if it kills the victim.

A creature whose brain is devoured leaves a corpse to incomplete to be brought back to life with a _raise dead_ spell, although a _resurrection_ or other life-restoring magic will succeed. Upon devouring a brain, a getiet gains 1d8 temporary hit points and a +2 bonus to Strength that lasts for 10 minutes per HD of the victim.​


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2009)

I think adding "dead or unconcious" before "victim" of Shade's write-up is all it needs.


----------



## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

Yeah, that should suffice.  I do agree that it should be a Su ability, in retrospect.

I like the idea of adding superior low-light vision, and I'd be fine with bumping the bite up to 2d6.   I also don't mind slightly higher racial bonuses on Listen and Spot.   

Should we give 'em scent, too?

Updated.

Skills: 16
Listen and Spot, of course.  Survival (if we give 'em Track)?

Feats: 2
Multiattack?  Power Attack?  Track (assuming we give 'em scent)?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yeah, that should suffice.  I do agree that it should be a Su ability, in retrospect.




Dead/unconscious supernatural brain eating sounds fine by me.



Shade said:


> I like the idea of adding superior low-light vision, and I'd be fine with bumping the bite up to 2d6.   I also don't mind slightly higher racial bonuses on Listen and Spot.




That looks alright. I kinda prefer +6 to Listen and Spot rather than +8 though.



Shade said:


> Should we give 'em scent, too?




Definitely. Indeed, I assumed it already had scent. Perhaps with a +4 racial bonus to Tracking, like a wolf?



Shade said:


> Skills: 16
> 
> Listen and Spot, of course.  Survival (if we give 'em Track)?




Don't forget Hide! It says it may use ambush, but doesn't much care for it, so may not be that good at it. May have a lowish racial bonus in that, say +4 in dark jungles.

4 ranks Hide, 5 ranks Listen, 5  ranks Spot, 2  ranks Survival?



Shade said:


> Feats: 2
> Multiattack?  Power Attack?  Track (assuming we give 'em scent)?




I'd be tempted to make Tracking a bonus feat, like the SRD Wolf or Wolverine.

I imagine these things are all about the biting, so I was thinking Weapon Focus (bite) rather than Multiattack.

Power Attack would work as the other feat, but is a bit conventional.

Hmm, these things talk and "it often harasses larger monsters simply for the pleasure of seeing their frustration". Are there any skills or feats that would help it torment its rivals and victims?

Maybe up its Charisma to 12, give it the Persuasive feat and transfer a couple of skill points from Spot & Listen to give Bluff and Intimidate, just to make it a bit different?

So, put that together and my proposals are:
*
Skills:* Bluff +5, Hide +1* [+5 in dark jungles], Intimidate +5, Listen +10, Spot +10, Survival +3* [+7 track by scent]
*Feats:* Persuasive, Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite)

Cha 12, 2 ranks Bluff, 4 ranks Hide, 2 ranks Intimidate, 3 ranks Listen, 3  ranks Spot, 2  ranks Survival, +4 racial Hide-in-jungle, +6 racial Spot & Listen, +4 racial track-by-scent.

What do you think?


----------



## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm fine with +6, scent, and Track as a bonus feat (plus the racial bonus when tracking by scent).

I'm not sure I like Persuasive, but I can agree to WF over Multiattack.  Power Attack may be conventional, but it definitely fits creatures that hunt with brute force well.

What do the rest of you think about feats and skills?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 10, 2009)

I prefer Multiattack to Weapon Focus, like Power Attack, like Track as a bonus feat and don't think it needs Intimidate or Bluff ranks.


----------



## freyar (Sep 10, 2009)

I agree with demiurge on the feats and skills.  I also like how this is shaping up, though I'm not sure I see why Devour Brain should be Su as it seems quite Ex to me (but I don't mind really).


----------



## Shade (Sep 10, 2009)

I think the death knellish temporary boost seems Su, but I can be convinced otherwise.

Updated.

Environment: Warm forests?

Organization: Solitary or x (2–4)

Challenge Rating: 4-5?  It's fairly comparable to a tiger on damage output (even considering all the special abilities), but the devour brain might be enough to push it to the next CR.

Treasure: Type D looks like standard or even double standard at its level (and of course, note in flavor that it is found only in its lair)

Advancement: 6-15 HD (Large); 16-20 HD (Huge)?

A getiet is about x feet long and weighs about x pounds.  (We made the hyaenadon about 8 feet long and around 750 pounds. )

Getiets speak Common and Abyssal?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think the death knellish temporary boost seems Su, but I can be convinced otherwise.
> 
> Updated.




I'm fine with dropping the deceptive skills, but I'm wondering whether we shouldn't switch a few points from Spot & Listen to Hide. A Hide of +1 isn't going to help it much in an ambush.

The feats are OK, as is Warm Forest and the organization.

I'll back CR4. It isn't that much tougher than a tiger. It's certainly not as nasty as a greater barghest or dire lion.

Standard treasure I suppose, it's not noted for liking to hoard loot.

Advancement to 20 Hit Dice is fine, but I'd prefer the switchover to Huge is a bit lower. 6-12 HD (Large); 13-20 HD (Huge) maybe?

Using the Hyaenodon's size and weight seems a good fit:

A typical getiet is about 8 feet long, stands 4 feet high at the shoulder, and weighs 750 pounds.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

I'll sponsor CR 5. A tiger can do a lot of damage on a pounce, but the getiet's more dangerous in a straight up melee--much higher to hits, for example. And the death knell is pretty mean.

Also, greater barghests should not be a touchstone for the comparison of anything's CR, except maybe as "is it as broken as a greater barghest?"

I'll also come out in favor of a racial bonus to Hide checks for the ambushing.


----------



## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

This all looks fine to me.  As for Devour Brain, I thought Ex -- it gets the temp hp and Str boost because brains are nutritious!


----------



## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Taking the greater barghest out of the equation, CR 5 looks pretty appealing.  Although they have less HD/hp than a dire lion, damage output and attack modifiers are similar, and the special abilities even it out.

Give 'em the hyena's +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth?

Cleon's suggestions for height/weight and advancement sound good.

Suggested name for a group?  Borrow "pack" from hyenas, or something more along the lines of a "murder" of crows, like "brainfeast"?


----------



## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

The racial Hide bonus sounds right.

I like the organization name idea in general, but "brainfeast" just sounds gross.   Maybe that's the idea, but maybe something like "slaughter" or "massacre" works better.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

A slaughter of getiets sounds about right.


----------



## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

Looks done to me.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

Same here. I like how it turned out.


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

*Ngojama*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
No. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 4 + 4
% IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: B
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-7/2-7
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Double damage if “to hit” roll is 4 or more over base needed to hit
SPECIAL DEFENSES: As per normal demons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
INTELLIGENCE: Average-very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: V/245 + 5/hp

An aggressive, speech-using, climbing, fearless, man-eating minor demon. Ngojama are difficult to control and are useful to evil spell-casters only as assassins. Their hand claws prohibit the ngojama from using tools of any sort.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #122 (1987).

Myths and Legends of the Bantu: Chapter XIII: Of Were-Wolves, Halfmen, Gnomes, Goblins, and Other Monsters


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

It looks like we've got another minor tanar'ri.

We should do something interesting with the iron nail.

Also, the linked article notes that they cannot swim (and possibly expand it to the vampire "can't cross water" weakness?).


----------



## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

The iron nail and original stats might make the case for an expanded threat range.

And agreed to minor tanar'ri.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 14, 2009)

Agreed to minor tanar'ri, water weakness like a vampires, and augmented critical (18-20x2)


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Ability scores of similar Medium, melee-focused, low-HD demons:

Carnage Demon: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 18
Wrackspawn: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 12
Rutterkin: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 10

Int is 8-12.
Con should be fairly decent due to the 4+4 HD.

Maybe Str 18, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11?


----------



## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

Seems reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Added to Homebrews with those scores.

Is the aversion to water too harsh?



> An aggressive, speech-using, climbing, fearless, man-eating minor demon.




Climb speed?   Immunity to fear?



> Ngojama are difficult to control and are useful to evil spell-casters only as assassins.




Do we want to do anything interesting with "difficult to control"?



> Their hand claws prohibit the ngojama from using tools of any sort.




Note in tactics that they can never wield weapons?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 14, 2009)

Aversion to water looks good. Didn't we do something similar with a demon recently?


----------



## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

Agreed to Aversion to Water.  The only semi-similar thing I remember was making it hard for chimps (or gorillas maybe) to swim.

20 ft climb speed, immune to fear, no weapons in tactics all sound good.  The difficult to control could be like the guardian yugoloths, always attacking when escaping planar binding spells, etc.  Actually, I think we need to revise the planar binding blurb on the guardian yugoloths to say that they nearly always attack when they escape the binding trap.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




CR5 seems a bit high, but not enough to fuss over it.

A Hide bonus of +1 still seems too low, even with a +4 it's still going to fail an ambush against equivalent CR opponents very often. I'd either swap a couple of Spot & Listen points around [Say Hide +5*, Listen +10, Spot +10, Survival +3*] or give it a higher racial bonus [maybe +8 in undergrowth?].

But it does look good, I'd be game for releasing it as-is if no-one else feels the same way about its Hide skill.

'Slaughter' was the first thing that sprang into my head for a collective noun, too. Great minds think alike!


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2009)

All the Ngojama proposals look very nice, the only suggestions I can think of are increasing the spell resistance a bit (10+CR would probably be closer to the 20% of the original) and that I'm tempted to increase its critical multiplier to ×4 like a light pick.


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

Cleon said:


> All the Ngojama proposals look very nice, the only suggestions I can think of are increasing the spell resistance a bit (10+CR would probably be closer to the 20% of the original) and that I'm tempted to increase its critical multiplier to ×4 like a light pick.




Demons always have CR+8.  

I'm fine with the x4 multiplier, though, since it only has that one gimmick.

I'll boost the getiet's Hide bonus in undergrowth to +8, as you suggested.


----------



## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

Wow, so ready for skills and feats so soon?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2009)

I like the pick-like claws, but I think we should drop the crit range down to 19-20 or even 20 in that case.

Weapon Focus (claws) and Dodge for the feats? They've only got the one attack, and their AC is pretty sad for the amount of hurt they can put out.

As for skills... hm. I'm getting a straight bruiser feeling from them, so Hide and Move Silently don't seem right. Listen, Spot, Search, Intimidate... and then it comes up blank.


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

Good point on the threat range.  Let's go with 19-20/x4.

Those feat and skill suggestions sound good.  We could also improve the natural armor, as it is a tad low.

Climb, Jump, and Tumble seem like decent fits, too, since they are fairly dextrous and we know they are good climbers.  Speaking of which, I need to add the climb bits to the skills entry...


----------



## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

Yes, let's bump natural to +4.

Ok, so let's add Climb, Jump, Tumble, and maybe Balance or Bluff.


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

Sounds good.

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 4?

Advancement: 5-12 HD (Medium)?

A ngojama is about x feet tall and weighs about x pounds.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2009)

CR 4 looks right. I think they should be able to advance to Large at... 9 HD?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> Demons always have CR+8.




Bloody Chaotic outsiders and their stat consistency.

I agree with the 19-20/×4 critical for their claws and improving their NA.

Skills look good, as does giving them 20 ft. Climb.

Add my vote to Advancing to Large at 9 Hit Dice.

I'm imagining these things as about as tall as a man but with a heavy, almost apelike build.5½ to 6 feet tall and 250-300 pounds?​


----------



## Cleon (Sep 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Updated.




Shouldn't we take out the "as well as any weapons it wields" bit from the Combat entry, especially as it says they can't wield arms in the previous sentence!Ngojamas are aggressive, straightforward combatants that take wicked delight in impaling other creatures with their claws. Ngojamas never wield weapons, for their palm-claws make it impossible to do so effectively.

A ngojama's natural weapons*, as well as any weapons it wields,* are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.​


----------



## freyar (Sep 16, 2009)

Agreed with everyone else.  These are looking pretty good.


----------



## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

Updated.

That was easy.  

This next one will require a bit more effort...

*Cursed Crimson Crawler*
Move: 60 feet/turn
Hit Dice:  3 eight sided + 1 four sided = 3½
Armour class: 7
Treasure Type: Instruments of hatred of all sorts including both magic
& cursed weapons & other devices.
Alignment: lawful evil
Attacks: 2 (See below)
Damage: 1-6 points/attack

The prototype of the cursed crimson crawlers is the demon Shambar, who was, before the fall of the Legions of Satan, the swiftest runner in Heaven. (Most angels preferred to fly.) Shambar joined Satan’s rebellion, and was cast with him into Hell. (As described in Milton’s Paradise Lost.)

After that fall, Satan took the form of a snake in Eden and seduced Eve into eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Because of this, when the demons of Hell applauded Satan’s deed all of them were transformed for a time into hissing serpents. (This also is described in Paradise Lost.)

Shambar, infuriated by the loss of his legs, and at being forced to crawl, cursed hatred at the Almighty, far more than any other demon. Thus it was that when the other demons regained their demonic forms, Shambar’s lower body retained the form of a snake. Shambar and all mockeries of Shambar made by magic hate all those that walk or run, fly or swim.

Note on attacks: Throws heavy rocks (range 10’ times hit points, damage 1-12 points). Cursed crimson crawlers are bone breaking wrestlers in close combat. The tail tashes wildly about and usually hits characters other than the principle opponent.

Special abilities: The spiked tail knob acquires through evil magic the cursed crimson crawler’s hatred. This pent up bitterness bursts out if the monster is killed, and all those within 30’ suddenly become enraged at each other and fight for 1-4 melee rounds. Saving throws apply as against poison, but creatures saved may be attacked by those cursed by the hatred.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #14 (1978).


Although the text says "demon", the alignment, Hell, and fallen angel aspect clearly suggest "devil".


----------



## freyar (Sep 17, 2009)

Yup, devil, devil, devil.

What to do about the funny HD?  Just go to 4 HD?  But given the back story, I'd have expected more than that.  Huh.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2009)

Well, these are Shanbar's descendents. Much reduced descendents. I, too, think we should boost their HD a bit. After all, a bone devil of the same era had 5+5 HD, or something like that. So we could boost these guys to 6-8 and be good. Perhaps 7 for that "3 and a half" thing?


----------



## freyar (Sep 17, 2009)

7HD would feel right, sure.


----------



## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

Let's go with 7 HD.

Size isn't given, but I'd prefer Large.

It sounds like these are really strong.  Nothing implies decent mental scores, so I'm thinking dumb to average intellect, hulking brutes.


----------



## freyar (Sep 17, 2009)

Large sounds good, and that assessment sounds right.  Int around 8, Wis and Cha around 10-12?


----------



## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

Str 24, Dex 17, Con 26, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 11?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2009)

Those ability scores sound right. Maybe Wis 13 for the saves and senses.


----------



## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I borrowed the rock throwing from the similarly-sized hill giant, but retained the damage in the original entry.  Does that work?



> Treasure Type: Instruments of hatred of all sorts including both magic
> & cursed weapons & other devices.




Use Magic Device as one of its skills?



> Cursed crimson crawlers are bone breaking wrestlers in close combat.




Improved grab and/or racial bonus on grapple checks?  



> The tail tashes wildly about and usually hits characters other than the principle opponent.




Tail sweep?



> The spiked tail knob acquires through evil magic the cursed crimson crawler’s hatred. This pent up bitterness bursts out if the monster is killed, and all those within 30’ suddenly become enraged at each other and fight for 1-4 melee rounds. Saving throws apply as against poison, but creatures saved may be attacked by those cursed by the hatred.




Death throes that function as a rage spell?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> Death throes that function as a rage spell?




The 3rd edition _rage_ spell doesn't compel its victims to attack each other, so I don't see how it fits. I'd think a better comparison would be the _confusion_ spell, although I'd should tweak the random behaviour table to something like:
01-10 Attack Crimson Crawler's corpse, or close towards corpse if attack not possible.
11-30 Curse and babble furiously, will engage in combat if attacked.
31-80 Attack nearest creature (for this purpose a familiar counts as part of the subject's self)
81-00 Attack randomly selected creature within 30 feet, charging if possible, or close towards target if attack not possible.

An _enraged_ victim only makes attacks of opportunity against their selected target.​What d you think?


----------



## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

I say we just turn your "81-100" line into the death throes ability.


----------



## freyar (Sep 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> I say we just turn your "81-100" line into the death throes ability.



I'm agreed to that.

On your other questions, rock throwing is good, tail sweep is good (damage downsized from dragon?), yes to UMD, and racial grapple bonus.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2009)

Yeah, song of discord is probably the comparison we want to draw here.


----------



## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

Ahh...song of discord...perfect!

I borrowed the "downsized" tail sweep from the megalania.

Updated.

Give 'em summon baatezu?  If so, summons another cursed crimson crawler?

Suggested natural armor bonus?  Tail slap damage?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2009)

1 crimson crawler or 2d4 lemures?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Ahh...song of discord...perfect!




Gah! How could I have missed that, song of discord is an ideal model!

The description does needs a bit of cleaning up and the removal of the "sonic" qualifier. How about:*Death Throes (Ex):* When killed, a cursed crimson crawler’s tail knob explodes, releasing waves of pent up bitterness and anger in a 30-foot radius. All creatures within the area must succeed on a DC 21 Will save or turn on each other rather than attack their foes. Each affected creature has a 50% chance to attack the nearest target each round. (Roll to determine each creature’s behavior every round at the beginning of its turn.)  Affected creatures attack with all methods at their disposal, employing their deadliest spells and most advantageous combat tactics. They do not, however, harm targets that have fallen unconscious. A creature that does not attack its nearest neighbor is free to act normally for that round.

This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect. The save DC is Constitution-based.​


Shade said:


> Suggested natural armor bonus?  Tail slap damage?




The original has a lousy AC, so I'm thinking something at the lower range like a bearded devil's +7 natural armour.

1d12 tail slap, like a crocodile?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 19, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> 1 crimson crawler or 2d4 lemures?




That suits me.

What percentage chance of success do you fancy, 35% like most of the low-CR devils?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2009)

35-45%. So maybe 40%?


----------



## freyar (Sep 19, 2009)

40% and all the other suggestions sound fine.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

Updated.

Damage reduction 5/good or 10/good?

How high of a racial bonus on grapple checks?

Do you get a claw or slam attack vibe from the original description?



> Shambar and all mockeries of Shambar made by magic hate all those that walk or run, fly or swim.




I'd say that rules out the Swim skill and the Run feat.  

Skills: 7 at 10 ranks 
We already decided on Use Magic Device at the very least.  Knowledge (religion) seems appropriate, considering their origin.

Feats: 3


----------



## freyar (Sep 21, 2009)

DR 10.

Grapple bonus +12, make them nasty.

Somehow claw, but I could see either way.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 21, 2009)

+8 should be enough... they don't have improved grab. Is this intentional? 

I think claws are appropriate, but I could see the argument for slams. Speaking of, their Str bonus to damage is way off in the full attack line.

How about Multiattack, Iron Will and Quick Draw (so it can throw two rocks a round)? I could also see a case for Skill Focus (UMD), since the DCs are generally pretty high and they don't have a Charisma bonus.

Should we give them an ability to take 10 on UMD checks? That way, they could use wands without penalty.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> +8 should be enough... they don't have improved grab. Is this intentional?




I asked upthread, and no one "approved" it.  I'm fine with improved grab, though.



demiurge1138 said:


> How about Multiattack, Iron Will and Quick Draw (so it can throw two rocks a round)? I could also see a case for Skill Focus (UMD), since the DCs are generally pretty high and they don't have a Charisma bonus.




Sounds good.  I could see making Iron Will a bonus feat so we can get all four.



demiurge1138 said:


> Should we give them an ability to take 10 on UMD checks? That way, they could use wands without penalty.




I like!


----------



## freyar (Sep 21, 2009)

+8 grapple, Imp Grab, all 4 feats (Iron Will bonus), and take 10 on UMD -- sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

Updated.

What other skills?

Suggested name for the "can always take 10 on Use Magic Device checks" ability?  (As seen in a recent conversion, "item master" is already used).


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 22, 2009)

Warlocks call it "decieve item".


----------



## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

"Decieve Item"  is good enough for me if it's good enough for a warlock. 

Climb,Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Spot?


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Ahh, I forgot the warlock had that.   Perfect!

Updated.

Intimidate, Listen, Knowledge (the planes), Search, and Spot for the remaining skills?


----------



## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

I had Climb instead of Search and Jump instead of Know (planes), but any combination of those is fine with me.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

For some reason, I overlooked that portion of your post.

I'm fine with Climb and Jump, too.

Anyone else wanna weigh in?


----------



## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

I'm not really feeling jump right now, and they seem a bit dumb and mean to bother searching things.  So let's go with Climb and Know (planes).


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x?

Challenge Rating: 6?

Treasure: Standard coins, standard goods, double items?

Advancement: 8-14 HD (Large); 15-21 HD (Huge)?

A cursed crimson crawler is x feet tall and weighs about x pounds.  (9 feet long/tall?)


----------



## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

These kind of sound like they'd form gangs of 4-8.

CR, Treasure, Advancement are ok.

9 ft long and 8 ft tall, 2000 lb?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 22, 2009)

I thought they hated everything that climbs? I'd rather they had Search, personally. 

They're rather better than a chain devil, but the erinyes outshines them in AC, mobility and spell-like abilities. I think that's a good argument for CR 7.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Good catch!

Updated.

Anything left?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 23, 2009)

Two things.

1. Thanks to Quick Draw, they should have iterative attacks with their rock throwing, +9/+4.

2. What's the duration of the discord effect on the death throes? How can it be removed prematurely?


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Nice catch.  I've fixed the full attack line.

Since song of discord is 1 round/level, and these things have 7 HD, 7 rounds?  Or, if you'd prefer a variable duration, 1d6+1 rounds?

Dispelled prematurely by calm emotions, remove curse, and break enchantment?


----------



## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

They "hate all those that walk or run, fly or swim," but that's probably enough justification for dropping Climb.

1d6+1 rounds sounds fun, and those spells make sense.


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

Looks fine at a glance, so let's wrap it up.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 23, 2009)

Should we give them a name they call themselves, rather than just the "x devil"-esque cursed crimson crawler? My vote is for shambari or shamban, something derived from their patron/predecessor. Beyond that, I think we're good.


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Great idea!  I'll add it.


----------



## freyar (Sep 24, 2009)

I like Shambari, if we're taking votes.


----------



## Shade (Sep 24, 2009)

Agreed here.  

And now another outsider from my favorite under-utilized plane (Pandemonium)...

*MAPMAKER*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVE: 15”/25”
HIT DICE: 7+7
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: U (but never potions, rods, staves or wands, and always maps; scrolls (1-4) 70%)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10 (mouth); 1-6 (tail) and 1-4 (mapmaker’s stick)
SPECIAL ATTACKS +1 to hit; +3 damage; paralyzation, mild insanity
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Cannot be confused; surprises on a 1-3
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 15%
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic (tends towards evil)
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: 170/170
Attack/Defense modes: C + Psychic Pandemonium (detailed below),F, G, H

A Mapmaker looks like an overgrown weasel at distances of 20 feet or more; however, up close it is obviously quite different. It has scaled skin like a lizard; it has a long tail, a humpback and it stands on two legs. It has an Elizabethan-type ruff about its neck, multi-faceted flashing eyes, a strange protruding “sucker mouth,” rubbery arms and a webbed hollow in its back.

Mapmakers come from the plane of Pandemonium, and are quite common there. They have a passion for maps, and are never encountered without one. The maps are not necessarily accurate, and often they are totally false, describing non-existent places. They are very detailed and beautiful, however, Mapmakers value their maps more than they do gold.

A mapmaker’s primary attack is accomplished by spreading its wings. This causes its entire body to turn metallic and glow with darting, scintillating colors. Any creature within 12” viewing the mapmaker in this state must make a saving throw vs. paralyzation a -2 on the die. Creatures getting a 4 or less on the die (before modification) turn schizoid until a Heal, Restoration, Limited wish or Wish is used. The paralyzation lasts for the number on the die plus 5 rounds. 

NOTE: Magical devices will not negate or prevent this effect.

The sucker mouth extends out 2”, and the tail is barbed. The mapmaker will try to use its tail to draw prey to its mouth (it can drag prey a distance of 5 feet on a “to hit” roll of 18 or more). Hits on the mapmaker’s ruff do half damage, while hits on the hump do 1½ times normal damage. Mapmakers’ ruffs scintillate harmlessly when removed from the body; they are very strong and might be worth something to a jeweler or cobbler. 

Mapmakers have their own language, and all their maps are written in it. Map makers smell strongly of hay.
Mapmakers love to steal a party’s map so the party will be lost. When stealing maps, the creatures’ senses are heightened and they have 8th-level Thief abilities, A new magic item is included with this monster: the Mapmaker’s stick (it can mark anything, including human flesh; thus, the 1-4 damage pts.)

PSYCHIC PANDEMONIUM: This psionic attack mode attacks exactly like a Mind Thrust, but it may only be defended against with Tower of Iron Will, and then takes double pts. from the defender.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #47 (1981).


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 25, 2009)

These guys are... weird. Turn schizoid? Opens its wings to turn metallic? Elizabethan ruff?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 25, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> These guys are... weird. Turn schizoid? Opens its wings to turn metallic? Elizabethan ruff?




Of course they are weird, they're from Pandemonium!

Hmm, looks like we'll have trouble with the special abilities, but let's do the easy stuff.

Medium Outsider (Chaotic)

7 Hit Dice.

I'm thinking a very good Dex, pretty good Con, Int around 12, Cha probably pretty high. Something like:

Str 15, Dex 20, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 17

Moves at 40 ft or flies at 70 ft (average or poor manoeuvrability?)


----------



## Shade (Sep 25, 2009)

They are odd indeed.

Added to Homebrews with those ability scores.



> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Cannot be confused; surprises on a 1-3




Immunity to confusion and insanity?  Improved Init as bonus feat, and possible racial bonus on Hide/Move Silently?



> PSIONIC ABILITY: 170/170
> Attack/Defense modes: C + Psychic Pandemonium (detailed below), F, G, H






> PSYCHIC PANDEMONIUM: This psionic attack mode attacks exactly like a Mind Thrust, but it may only be defended against with Tower of Iron Will, and then takes double pts. from the defender.




C. Ego Whip
F. Mind Blank
G. Thought Shield
H. Mental Barrier

So, for the psionic version, it's easy.  We'll need to come up with some equivalencies for a nonpsionic version.



> A mapmaker’s primary attack is accomplished by spreading its wings. This causes its entire body to turn metallic and glow with darting, scintillating colors. Any creature within 12” viewing the mapmaker in this state must make a saving throw vs. paralyzation a -2 on the die. Creatures getting a 4 or less on the die (before modification) turn schizoid until a Heal, Restoration, Limited wish or Wish is used. The paralyzation lasts for the number on the die plus 5 rounds.
> 
> NOTE: Magical devices will not negate or prevent this effect.




Scintillating pattern would probably suffice in this case, but if we want to stick with paralysis/insanity rather than unconsciousness/stunning/confusion, we can do so.



> The sucker mouth extends out 2”, and the tail is barbed. The mapmaker will try to use its tail to draw prey to its mouth (it can drag prey a distance of 5 feet on a “to hit” roll of 18 or more).




This seems to imply extended reach with its tail.  We could follow the roper/cave fisher/bonespear drag approach, or simplify it to improved grab with tail, then free bite against grappled foe.  I think I'd prefer the latter.



> Hits on the mapmaker’s ruff do half damage, while hits on the hump do 1½ times normal damage. Mapmakers’ ruffs scintillate harmlessly when removed from the body; they are very strong and might be worth something to a jeweler or cobbler.




This is a bit odd, and doesn't have a good 3x equivalent.  



> Mapmakers have their own language, and all their maps are written in it.




I'd recommend giving them telepathy, common to most outsiders, so they can communicate with others.  This would still preserve the difficulty in reading their language.



> Mapmakers love to steal a party’s map so the party will be lost. When stealing maps, the creatures’ senses are heightened and they have 8th-level Thief abilities.




At the very least, they should get good ranks and maybe a racial bonus in Sleight of Hand.  I could see giving them uncanny dodge and/or evasion as well.



> A new magic item is included with this monster: the Mapmaker’s stick (it can mark anything, including human flesh; thus, the 1-4 damage pts.)




So would this weapon require a touch attack?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> Immunity to confusion and insanity?  Improved Init as bonus feat, and possible racial bonus on Hide/Move Silently?




I'll say yes to all of those.



Shade said:


> Scintillating pattern would probably suffice in this case, but if we want to stick with paralysis/insanity rather than unconsciousness/stunning/confusion, we can do so.




As far as I'm concerned the paralysis/insanity appearance is its main shtick, so I think we should keep it.



Shade said:


> This seems to imply extended reach with its tail.  We could follow the roper/cave fisher/bonespear drag approach, or simplify it to improved grab with tail, then free bite against grappled foe.  I think I'd prefer the latter.




It is rather oddly worded. The sucker mouth extends 2" - that's a 20 feet Reach in 3E terms. If it drags prey into mouth-reach with its tail the latter would have to be longer. That seems rather odd, there's no mention of the thing having a 20'+ tail. Maybe it telescopes out, like its sucker mouth.

So do we give it a 20 foot Reach tail and a standard reach bite attack, or both tail and bite with super-reach?

I lean towards the Roper drag-closer model, but would be alright with the Improved Grab / free bite if that's what our colleagues prefer.

I think we'd better drop the vulnerable ruff / resilient hump bit.



Shade said:


> I'd recommend giving them telepathy, common to most outsiders, so they can communicate with others.  This would still preserve the difficulty in reading their language.
> 
> At the very least, they should get good ranks and maybe a racial bonus in Sleight of Hand.  I could see giving them uncanny dodge and/or evasion as well.




Yes, we need Telepathy and Sleight-of-Hand. I'd leave out dodge/evasion though.



Shade said:


> So would this weapon require a touch attack?




I'm thinking that its a melee touch attack that does 1d4 damage but ignores all Damage Resistance (or ignore all non-epic DR).


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 25, 2009)

I like the scintillating pattern version. Perhaps the mapmaker has some sort of ability where it can make Reflex saves against attack rolls to take half damage, as they strike the deflective ruff instead?

And can we call it a frill? I'm getting a frilled lizard/Jurassic Park dilophosaurus vibe, which sounds a lot better than "Elizabethan ruff".


----------



## Shade (Sep 25, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> And can we call it a frill? I'm getting a frilled lizard/Jurassic Park dilophosaurus vibe, which sounds a lot better than "Elizabethan ruff".




Hell and yeah!  

The other idea sounds interesting as well.  Limited to say once per round?


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm busy for one day, and look at all you guys do!  There's a chemosit in the homebrews, by the way.  

The Reflex save idea sounds good.

I lean slightly toward paralysis/insanity, but we can describe it more or less as scintillating pattern (or go the other way, my opinion isn't strong).

I don't quite get the reach of the different natural weapons myself.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 26, 2009)

I do like paralysis/insanity as well, and am currently leaning towards it as more differentiation. I think the tail should have five feet more of reach than its other natural weapons. And 1/round is good for the half damage (melee evasion? deflect blows?)


----------



## Cleon (Sep 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like the scintillating pattern version. Perhaps the mapmaker has some sort of ability where it can make Reflex saves against attack rolls to take half damage, as they strike the deflective ruff instead?
> 
> And can we call it a frill? I'm getting a frilled lizard/Jurassic Park dilophosaurus vibe, which sounds a lot better than "Elizabethan ruff".




You sir are a scallywag! No gentleman weasel from the more select parts of Pandemonium would disgrace himself by comparing his neck adornments with parts of some vulgar reptile.

I insist we keep the "Elizabethan Ruff" reference, although I will be willing to stoop to the whims of the common crowd and make references to this noble appurtenance as being a "Frill".


----------



## Cleon (Sep 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like the scintillating pattern version. Perhaps the mapmaker has some sort of ability where it can make Reflex saves against attack rolls to take half damage, as they strike the deflective ruff instead?




Although I like the suggestion of it having a Reflex save to take half damage from a weapon attack by absorbing them with its ruff.

As for the hump taking 150% damage, maybe we could make the Mapmaker more vulnerable to criticals? Say, it takes an extra crit multiplier, so a x2 crit becomes x3. That's the same 50% markup as the original write-up and is a better fit with 3E rules.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 26, 2009)

Ah, reminds me of my "impeded fortification" rules from my Mystery Science Theater Monster Project:

Impeded Fortification (Ex): The armor plates of a Metalunan mutant help protect its vulnerable organs, but, ironically, its brain is almost entirely exposed. Critical hits and sneak attacks have a 50% chance of inflicting only normal damage against a mutant, but if they succeed, a critical hit deals an extra multiplier of damage (a greatsword dealing x3 damage, or a pick x5) and a sneak attack deals an extra 2d6 damage.


----------



## freyar (Sep 27, 2009)

Impeded Fortification could work, though I think that Ref for 1/2 damage from attacks 1/rd plus vulnerability to crits, as Cleon suggests, is somehow simpler.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 27, 2009)

Oh, I agree. I was just putting another option on the table/pointing out the similarity.


----------



## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

We did something similar with the great elder wyrm...

Weak Spot (Ex): A confirmed critical hit on a natural 20 with a slashing or piercing weapon allows a creature to take advantage of an elder wyrm’s weak spot (if it remains exposed), increasing the weapon’s damage multiplier by one step (for example, a longsword which has a multiplier of x2 would have a multiplier of x3 against a great elder wyrm’s weak spot).

Just throwing it out there for more inspiration.  Take it or leave it.


----------



## freyar (Sep 28, 2009)

The weak spot does seem like a nice compromise, too.


----------



## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

Updated some of the other stuff while we continue to discuss this ability.

Does the mapmaker's stick writeup look serviceable?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 28, 2009)

So, weak spot plus melee evasion?


----------



## freyar (Sep 29, 2009)

The stick looks fine to me.  

Also, I like weak spot plus the Ref save vs melee 1/day.


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

Like so?

Evade Blow (Ex): Once per day, a mapmaker may attempt to block an incoming blow with its deflective frill. To do so, the mapmaker makes a Reflex save (DC equals opponent's attack roll) against a successful attack to take half damage.

Weak Spot (Ex): A confirmed critical hit on a natural 20 with a slashing or piercing weapon allows a creature to take advantage of a mapmaker's weak spot upon its hump (if it remains exposed), increasing the weapon’s damage multiplier by one step (for example, a longsword which has a multiplier of x2 would have a multiplier of x3 against a mapmaker's weak spot).


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 29, 2009)

Drop that "if it is still exposed" bit. Otherwise... looks good.


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

Updated.

Improved grab with the tail?   "Gnaw", or whatever we called the ability that allows a free bite attack on a grappled foe?



> PSYCHIC PANDEMONIUM: This psionic attack mode attacks exactly like a Mind Thrust, but it may only be defended against with Tower of Iron Will, and then takes double pts. from the defender.




Here's 3.5 mind thrust...

Mind Thrust
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Psion/wilder 1
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 1 

You instantly deliver a massive assault on the thought pathways of any one creature, dealing 1d10 points of damage to it.

Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by 1d10 points. For each extra 2d10 points of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.


Tower of Iron Will now grants power resistance.

So should psychic pandemonium simply function as mind blast, with a greater chance of overcoming power resistance?   Or should we make it a Su ability, similar to a mind flayer's mind blast, and make it similar (but slightly different) to mind thrust?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2009)

I like the idea of making it a weak spot on a natural 20, it stops high threat-range weapons getting a big advantage.

EDIT: The Mapmaker's stick write up looks spot-on. I like the use of the _erase _spell.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Improved grab with the tail?   "Gnaw", or whatever we called the ability that allows a free bite attack on a grappled foe?
> 
> ...




Yes to both Improved Grab & Gnaw.

As for the psychic attacks, how did Mind Thrust work in 1st edition? I have a feeling that might give us a better baseline for Pyschic Pandemonium than the 3E version, but I can't remember how AD&D handled it, probably because I never used psionics in my campaign.


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

It was simply an attack/defense mode, which IIRC, were simply a rock-paper-scissors battle between two psionic characters.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 30, 2009)

Make psychic pandemonium a SLA similar to a mind flayer's mind blast. Improved grab plus gnaw sounds perfect.


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

Pyschic Pandemonium (Sp): This psionic attack delivers a massive assault on the thought pathways of a single target within 60 feet. The victim takes 6d10 points of damage.  A successful DC X Will save halves the damage. The save DC is Charisma-based, and includes a +3 racial bonus. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.

The racial bonus is to emulate the augmented save DC due to manifester level.

Also, I was mistaken.  The illithid's mind blast ability is Sp, not Su, emulated above.

To "Pandemoniumize" it, how about adding a secondary effect of confusion for 2d4+1 rounds if the save is failed?  This would emulate many of the wind effects on Pandemonium.


----------



## freyar (Oct 1, 2009)

This all looks good, including the confusion.  But then I think we're going past the equivalent of a 1st level spell.


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

Good point, although I see no problem with making the equivalent of a higher-level spell.


----------



## RavinRay (Oct 2, 2009)

Late comment on the scintillating effect from the wings; it's reminiscent of the 2e mercury dragon's blinding wings and the scintillating scales of many neutral dragons.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2009)

Well, seeing as it's augmented to 6th manifester level, it should be the equivalent of a 3rd level spell. Also, mind thrust is save-for-none.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

Revising...

Psychic Pandemonium (Sp): This psionic attack delivers a massive assault on the thought pathways of a single target within 60 feet. The victim takes 6d10 points of damage (no save) and is confused for 2d4+1 rounds (DC X Will negates). The save DC is Charisma-based, and includes a +3 racial bonus. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.


Should we limit it to once every 1d4 rounds, or maybe 3/day?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> Revising...
> 
> Psychic Pandemonium (Sp): This psionic attack delivers a massive assault on the thought pathways of a single target within 60 feet. The victim takes 6d10 points of damage (no save) and is confused for 2d4+1 rounds (DC X Will negates). The save DC is Charisma-based, and includes a +3 racial bonus. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.
> 
> ...




6d10 no save is too high surely, it would rarely use any other attack. I'd cut the damage to 1d10 and make it an at-will.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2009)

Not no save, save-for-none. As in, a successful save negates the effect.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 3, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Not no save, save-for-none. As in, a successful save negates the effect.




Yes, that's how Mind Thrust works, but the description of  Psychic Pandemonium says "6d10 points of damage (no save)", which doesn't say save-for-none to me.

It looks like it needs rewriting to something like:

Psychic Pandemonium (Sp): This psionic attack delivers a massive assault on the thought pathways of a single target within 60 feet. The victim takes 6d10 points of damage and is confused for 2d4+1 rounds, a DC X Will save negates both effects. The save DC is Charisma-based, and includes a +3 racial bonus. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.


----------



## freyar (Oct 3, 2009)

Save negates sounds right.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 4, 2009)

The only reason the description on psychic pandemonium says that is because Shade misinterpreted me. Stacking the confusion atop it should probably make it a higher level spell. 4th or 5th.


----------



## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The only reason the description on psychic pandemonium says that is because Shade misinterpreted me. Stacking the confusion atop it should probably make it a higher level spell. 4th or 5th.




Apparently so.  I'll put the save back.  So what were you trying to say?


----------



## freyar (Oct 5, 2009)

He meant to say that save negates.


----------



## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

Ahh, that makes sense.  I had save for half, methinks.

So...

Psychic Pandemonium (Sp): This psionic attack delivers a massive assault on the thought pathways of a single target within 60 feet. The victim takes 6d10 points of damage and is confused for 2d4+1 rounds.  A DC X Will save halves the damage and negates the confusion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based, and includes a +3 racial bonus. This ability is the equivalent of a x-level spell.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

No, I still think that save negates should apply to all of it, if we're basing this on mind thrust.


----------



## freyar (Oct 6, 2009)

I could go either way -- it doesn't have to follow mind thrust completely.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

If it's save-for-half and usable at will, why shouldn't a mapmaker spend every action using psychic pandemonium? Even on a passed save, 3d10 is still more damage than it can dish out any other way. The save negates gives it an element of risk and makes it only one option, instead of the best option.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm convinced that it should be Will negates for all.

I'm also fine with a less than "at will" usage cycle.   Once every 1d4 rounds like breath weapons?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> If it's save-for-half and usable at will, why shouldn't a mapmaker spend every action using psychic pandemonium? Even on a passed save, 3d10 is still more damage than it can dish out any other way. The save negates gives it an element of risk and makes it only one option, instead of the best option.




That's what I'm arguing too. The damage is just too good as it is, even without the confusion effect. Either cut the damage or make it save negates.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Let's keep it save negates and at will. It'll still have to do other things, like full attacks, if it wants to have any hope of affecting multiple targets. Cutting the damage in half to 3d10, then making it save-for-half, like Cleon seems to be suggesting, would also work.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

So...

Psychic Pandemonium (Sp): At will, a mapmaker can unleash a psionic attack delivers a massive assault on the thought pathways of a single target within 60 feet. The victim takes 6d10 points of damage and is confused for 2d4+1 rounds. A DC X Will save negates both the damage and the confusion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based, and includes a +3 racial bonus. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.

-or-

Psychic Pandemonium (Sp): At will, a mapmaker can unleash a psionic attack delivers a massive assault on the thought pathways of a single target within 60 feet. The victim takes 3d10 points of damage and is confused for 2d4+1 rounds. A DC X Will save halves the damage and negates the confusion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based, and includes a +3 racial bonus. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

Shade said:


> So...
> 
> Psychic Pandemonium (Sp): At will, a mapmaker can unleash a psionic attack delivers a massive assault on the thought pathways of a single target within 60 feet. The victim takes 6d10 points of damage and is confused for 2d4+1 rounds. A DC X Will save negates both the damage and the confusion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based, and includes a +3 racial bonus. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.
> 
> ...




I guess either of those would do, although I'd still be tempted to trim the damage a bit for the save negates version to around 4d10. That works out about the same average damage as 3d10 save for half damage if the target has a 50% chance of saving.


----------



## freyar (Oct 8, 2009)

Let's go with the save for half option.  Makes it sort of like a breath weapon.


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2009)

Updated.

Shall we return to the "scintillating frill" now?



> A mapmaker’s primary attack is accomplished by spreading its wings. This causes its entire body to turn metallic and glow with darting, scintillating colors. Any creature within 12” viewing the mapmaker in this state must make a saving throw vs. paralyzation a -2 on the die. Creatures getting a 4 or less on the die (before modification) turn schizoid until a Heal, Restoration, Limited wish or Wish is used. The paralyzation lasts for the number on the die plus 5 rounds.
> 
> NOTE: Magical devices will not negate or prevent this effect.




Upthread, the majority seemed to favor keeping insanity/paralysis.

Should this work a bit like a gaze attack?

Edit:  I think I found a precedent to build upon.  

Hypnotic Wings (Su): Any creature viewing the unfurled wings of a slake moth is paralyzed for 1d4 rounds unless he makes a successful DC 19 Will save. Creatures can avoid viewing the wings as they would a gaze attack, but due to the shimmering colors, the chance of not having to make a saving throw is only 30% rather than the usual 50%. Viewing the wings through mirrors avoids their hypnotic powers. The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

So, paralysis initially, and when the paralysis duration ends, save or be confused?


----------



## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Scintillating Frill (Su): Any creature viewing the darting, scintillating colors within a mapmaker's extended frill is paralyzed for 1d4 rounds unless it makes a successful DC x Will save.  A creature that fails its save must make another DC x Will save after the paralysis duration expires.  A creature failing this save is permanently confused (as the confusion spell).  Creatures can avoid viewing the frill as they would a gaze attack, but due to the shimmering colors, the chance of not having to make a saving throw is only 30% rather than the usual 50%. Viewing the frill through mirrors avoids its powers. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 



I don't think we need to explicitly list the spells that remove t
the effect, as heal, for example, clearly mentions that it removes confusion.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't like the carry-over of the slake moth pervasiveness of the gaze. Hell, I don't like those slake moth stats, period. The ones in the book were beings of nigh-godlike power, and they get statted as a CR 9!

Sorry for the quick rant.


----------



## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

No arguments here...I was underwhelmed by the slake-moth stats as well.

IIRC, they did right by the weaver, though. 

Revising...

Scintillating Frill (Su): Any creature viewing the darting, scintillating colors within a mapmaker's extended frill is paralyzed for 1d4 rounds unless it makes a successful DC x Will save. A creature that fails its save must make another DC x Will save after the paralysis duration expires. A creature failing this save is permanently confused (as the confusion spell). Creatures can avoid viewing the frill as they would a gaze attack. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


----------



## freyar (Oct 10, 2009)

That should work.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Scintillating Frill (Su): Any creature viewing the darting, scintillating colors within a mapmaker's extended frill is paralyzed for 1d4 rounds unless it makes a successful DC x Will save. A creature that fails its save must make another DC x Will save after the paralysis duration expires. A creature failing this save is permanently confused (as the confusion spell). Creatures can avoid viewing the frill as they would a gaze attack. The save DCs are Charisma-based.




I like this version, although I can't help feeling we should be giving this power a range. The original writeup says "Any creature within 12” viewing the mapmaker in this state", which translates to a 120 feet radius in 3E.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2009)

Gaze attacks generally do have a range, so this is very much appropriate. 120 feet, however, is very generous by gaze attack standards. Let's shrink it down to 60ft, which is still pretty damn big.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 11, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Gaze attacks generally do have a range, so this is very much appropriate. 120 feet, however, is very generous by gaze attack standards. Let's shrink it down to 60ft, which is still pretty damn big.




Sixty feet is OK by me, if not less. I realized that 120 feet is very high, so we could even make it 40 feet, or 30 ft like a Medusa.


----------



## freyar (Oct 12, 2009)

Let's do either 40 ft or 60 ft.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

Let's go 60 feet.

Updated.

Skills: 9 at 10 ranks
Craft (mapmaking), Decipher Script, Forgery, Knowledge (the planes)...

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), 3 more


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 12, 2009)

Weapon Finesse, Multiattack and... kind of drawing a blank here. Lightning Reflexes is somewhat tempting, as it can use its Reflex save to ignore weapon attacks. Wait a minute. It can only do that once a day? I was thinking once a round!


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

Once per round works for me, and assuming that, Lightning Reflexes makes good sense.


----------



## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Feats seem right.

Concentration, Craft (mapmaking), Decipher Script, Forgery, Hide, Knowledge (the planes), Move Silently, Sleight of Hand might be good for the first 8.  Knowledge (geography) would be thematic, but I don't know if it makes sense since they're extraplanar.

I think I like often evil a little better than usually, but I can go either way.


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Bluff seems a good fit for the last rank, as does Use Magic Device for their interest in scrolls.  I'll split the ranks.   Should we give them a racial bonus on Craft (mapmaking)?   Maybe Forgery as well?

Updated.



> TREASURE TYPE: U (but never potions, rods, staves or wands, and always maps; scrolls (1-4) 70%)




U:
10-80 gems: 90%
5-30 jewelry: 80%
Maps or Magic Items: 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%

Treasure: No coins; double goods (gems and maps only); double items (mostly scrolls)?

Alignment: Always chaotic, often evil?

Advancement: 8-14 HD (Medium); 15-21 HD (Large) or by character class?

A mapmaker is about 7 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds?


----------



## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Yes to both racial bonuses.

The rest sounds fine to me.


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Updated.

CR 7-8?  They are at least as good as the equal HD babau (CR 6), but the psychic pandemonium and scintillating frill are worth at least a jump of +1 or 2.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> Feats seem right.
> 
> Concentration, Craft (mapmaking), Decipher Script, Forgery, Hide, Knowledge (the planes), Move Silently, Sleight of Hand might be good for the first 8.  Knowledge (geography) would be thematic, but I don't know if it makes sense since they're extraplanar.




Well while it seems plausible that they'd know a lot about terrain from gathering all these maps, the description does say the maps they make are often inaccurate or totally false, so they may not know any geography at all!

Overall, I think I'd give them Spot instead.



freyar said:


> I think I like often evil a little better than usually, but I can go either way.




I agree, they seem to lean toward Neutral so Often Evil should be enough.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2009)

CR 7 seems appropriate. They lack the babau's suite of energy immunities and resistances and have worse SR, but they've got some nasty offensive punch and the deflective frill.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> CR 7 seems appropriate. They lack the babau's suite of energy immunities and resistances and have worse SR, but they've got some nasty offensive punch and the deflective frill.




Yes, I think 7 will do. Originally I was thinking 6-7, since there are CR6 creatures (such as a Wyvern) which are arguably deadlier up close.

They don't do much straight-up damage compared to some CR6 monsters, but they have several ranged "save or suck" special attacks, plus they've got better defences (especially Saves) and they can fly (which is a not inconsiderable combat boost in itself). That's worth an extra Challenge Rating.

What do we have left to do?


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

Updated.

I believe we're finished.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I believe we're finished.




I thought we had a couple of odds & ends, like height & weight, to work out, but I see it's already got those.

We could add a little bit to the Mapmaker's Stick description. I'm guessing the "proprietary" means only Mapmaker's can use it, but I think you should make that explicit otherwise PC's will exploit it, being PCs. Or let PCs use it, and give it a market value & CL.


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

That was what I was getting at, but I agree it needs to be more explicit.

So, do we make it a function of the mapmaker itself, allowing it to essentially turn any stick it is currently holding into a mapmaker's stick?   Or do we make it an actual rod, giving it the CL, market price, and so forth?


----------



## freyar (Oct 14, 2009)

Making it a function of the mapmaker would be kind of traditional, but I don't see PCs running into so many of these as to make it a big problem if we make the sticks into actual rods.  Do we have precedents for rods that act as touch attacks?


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

Withering: A rod of withering acts as a +1 light mace that deals no hit point damage. Instead, the wielder deals 1d4 points of Strength damage and 1d4 points of Constitution damage to any creature she touches with the rod (by making a melee touch attack). If she scores a critical hit, the damage from that hit is permanent ability drain. In either case, the defender negates the effect with a DC 17 Fortitude save.

Strong necromancy; CL 13th; Craft Rod, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, contagion; Price 25,000 gp.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

Make it an actual rod, but only creatures with the Chaos subtype can use it without making a UMD check.


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

How's this?

*Mapmaker’s Stick:* This magic rod has a glowing point.  It can etch any substance, including flesh. A mapmaker's stick acts as a +1 light mace that deals 1d4 points of damage to anything it touches, ignoring hardness and damage reduction of all kinds. If used as a weapon, it requires a melee touch attack. Marks left behind by a mapmaker's stick may be removed with an erase spell. Healing spells restore the damage, but do not remove the marks.  A mapmaker's stick only functions for creatures with the Chaotic subtype (or those who succeed on a Use Magic Device check to emulate the Chaotic subtype).

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Rod, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, arcane mark, erase, creator must have the Chaotic subtype; Price 5,000 gp.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

That looks good to me.


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

Updated.  I believe we're finished now.

I'll post the next one, but if anyone else feels the mapmaker's stick needs more work, feel free to comment on it.

*Ankou*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any inhabited area
FREQUENCY: Very rare (Rare)
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 6
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type (doubled)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Never surprised; detects hidden or invisible beings within 60’
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 975

The ankou is an undead creature who was a miserly farmer or peasant in life, a person so debased as to have murdered his own family out of greed or to have allowed his family to perish rather than share his hoard of food with them. When death claims such a person, his soul sometimes returns as an ankou, roaming the countryside in search of other victims to collect.

An ankou appears quite ordinary at a distance, seeming to be a poor farmer on the road late at night, perhaps returning from a market town. It wears typical rural clothing: ragged shoes or boots; worn, patched and dusty work clothes; and sometimes a broad-brimmed work hat set to cover its eyes. Closer inspection reveals it as an emaciated old man, with parched lips and with skin pulled tightly across the face and body. Three things upset this picture. First, an ankou is usually armed with a farmer’s scythe (50%), a long sword that it carries without a scabbard (20%), or a large club (20%); it is unarmed 10% of the time. Second, as an ankou takes its slow; stiff and deliberate steps forward, its head never ceases to turn from side to side, its glowing, flame-red eyes scanning the land to either side looking for prey. Third, the ankou is always followed by an apparently sourceless, wooden creaking sound. This is a product of an invisible cart pulled by an equally invisible ox or horse that is even more emaciated than the ankou. The purpose of the cart (a gift of some netherworld god of evil) is to carry away the bodies of the ankou’s victims, leaving behind nothing to mark its victims’ last struggles. Sometimes the sound of the cart can be heard minutes before the ankou appears, apparently stepping out of the lengthening shadows of dusk or merely approaching along a darkened road.

Combat: The ankou is not particular about whom it kills, but it is more likely to be encountered by solitary travelers than by groups (treat the ankou as if it were only “rare” on such occasions). It has excellent senses of hearing and sight, so it can detect anyone in hiding and cannot be surprised. Even with this ability, it will still attack only those who are accessible. The ankou cannot cross open water or flame, though rough ground slows neither itself nor its beast-drawn cart.

In combat the ankou usually fights with a weapon, doing double damage on all hits (2-16 hp damage with a sword, club, or scythe) because of its great strength and carefully aimed attacks. As it is as slow as a zombie, it gets only one attack per round and always strikes last. If unarmed, an ankou attacks by grabbing at its opponent and attempting to wrap its thin arms around the victim’s chest to crush him. The ankou needs to make a single to-hit roll; if it succeeds, the ankou has caught the victim in a bear hug of fantastic strength, its fingers locking together with startling power. Every round thereafter, the ankou does damage equal to the victim’s armor class (armor type and magical bonuses apply, but shield and dexterity bonuses do not, for the purposes of this calculation). Victims with armor classes of 1 or less take no damage. The hugged victim may attack the ankou with a one-handed melee weapon at - 2 to hit; he may instead elect to attempt to break the ankou’s hold, which can be done if he makes a successful bend bars/lift gates strength roll (one attempt per round allowed with no limit to the number of attempts).

Being undead, the ankou is unaffected by spells involving sleep, hold, charm, or cold of any sort, and its excellent senses negate the effects of many illusions (giving it a bonus of + 3 on saving throws vs. illusions). It can be turned by good clerics (or caused to ignore evil ones) as if it were a spectre. The touch of holy water instantly causes it and its cart to return to the nether realms of Tartarus without the possibility of a saving throw.

The invisible cart and beast of burden can be directly attacked only by casting a dispel evil or exorcise spell upon them, which will instantly destroy them (though they will re-form on the following night if the ankou still exists). Weapon blows and magical effects are ineffective against them.

Habitat/Society: The ankou is a very slow and patient creature with the ceaseless endurance of the undead. If an ankou’s victim escapes alive, it will follow him at its slow, plodding pace for the rest of the night, until it either catches and dispassionately kills him, or until the first light of dawn intrudes, banishing the ankou back to Tartarus until the next dusk. It has no memory to speak of and so will not resume its pursuit the next night out of any spite. But if the ankou encounters the same traveler on some subsequent night, it will attack him normally, as if the first encounter had never occurred. 

Ecology: The ankou is probably the undead that contributes the least to the ecology of a world. As with others of its ilk, it neither eats nor can be safely eaten by Prime Material plane dwellers. But unlike other undead, it does not leave even the lifeless bodies of its victims behind to be eaten or picked through for treasures. All that remains after an ankou’s attack are a line of the victim’s footprints that end at the point where the victim was waylaid by the driver of an ox or horse-pulled cart, and the wheel ruts that continue down the road, fading to nothingness.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #162 (1990).


----------



## freyar (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm not sure why these rods have the +1 light mace bit since they are touch attacks, but that's ok too.  I'm happy with it.

These ankou look kind of fun, lots of nice bits to them.


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Never surprised; detects hidden or invisible beings within 60’






> Combat: The ankou is not particular about whom it kills, but it is more likely to be encountered by solitary travelers than by groups (treat the ankou as if it were only “rare” on such occasions). It has excellent senses of hearing and sight, so it can detect anyone in hiding and cannot be surprised. Even with this ability, it will still attack only those who are accessible.




Blindsight 60 feet?



> The ankou cannot cross open water or flame, though rough ground slows neither itself nor its beast-drawn cart.




The first part resembles vampire weaknesses.

All-terrain movement like the roller sheen?



> In combat the ankou usually fights with a weapon, doing double damage on all hits (2-16 hp damage with a sword, club, or scythe) because of its great strength and carefully aimed attacks.




We'll need to give it a decent Str score.  Improved Critical as a bonus feat with its scythe?



> NO. OF ATTACKS: 2






> As it is as slow as a zombie, it gets only one attack per round and always strikes last.




Nice contradiction there.  

Single Actions only like a zombie?



> If unarmed, an ankou attacks by grabbing at its opponent and attempting to wrap its thin arms around the victim’s chest to crush him. The ankou needs to make a single to-hit roll; if it succeeds, the ankou has caught the victim in a bear hug of fantastic strength, its fingers locking together with startling power. Every round thereafter, the ankou does damage equal to the victim’s armor class (armor type and magical bonuses apply, but shield and dexterity bonuses do not, for the purposes of this calculation). Victims with armor classes of 1 or less take no damage. The hugged victim may attack the ankou with a one-handed melee weapon at - 2 to hit; he may instead elect to attempt to break the ankou’s hold, which can be done if he makes a successful bend bars/lift gates strength roll (one attempt per round allowed with no limit to the number of attempts).




Improved grab/constrict?



> Being undead, the ankou is unaffected by spells involving sleep, hold, charm, or cold of any sort, and its excellent senses negate the effects of many illusions (giving it a bonus of + 3 on saving throws vs. illusions).




Does blindsight help with illusions?



> It can be turned by good clerics (or caused to ignore evil ones) as if it were a spectre.




Spectres have +2 turn resistance.



> The touch of holy water instantly causes it and its cart to return to the nether realms of Tartarus without the possibility of a saving throw.
> 
> Str 20, Dex 8, Con -, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 17?


----------



## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

Yes to about all of that.  

I'm undecided about the single actions and will let you know. 

I think blindsight would make it essentially immune to visual illusions but nothing else.  That's an ok tradeoff for me, but we could go with a save bonus vs illusions if everyone else wants.

I kind of like the idea of making them extraplanar and having them treat holy water like banishment or something.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2009)

I'd rather ignore the standard actions only, but I could see giving them a Dex penalty for the reduced initiative.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> How's this?
> 
> *Mapmaker’s Stick:* This magic rod has a glowing point.  It can etch any substance, including flesh. A mapmaker's stick acts as a +1 light mace that deals 1d4 points of damage to anything it touches, ignoring hardness and damage reduction of all kinds. If used as a weapon, it requires a melee touch attack. Marks left behind by a mapmaker's stick may be removed with an erase spell. Healing spells restore the damage, but do not remove the marks.  A mapmaker's stick only functions for creatures with the Chaotic subtype (or those who succeed on a Use Magic Device check to emulate the Chaotic subtype).
> 
> Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Rod, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, arcane mark, erase, creator must have the Chaotic subtype; Price 5,000 gp.




That looks good, except I'd add a bit saying you don't add your Strength bonus to damage. E.g.:*Mapmaker’s Stick:* This magic rod has a glowing point. It can etch any substance, including flesh. A mapmaker's stick acts as a +1 light mace that deals 1d4 points of damage to anything it touches, ignoring hardness and damage reduction of all kinds. If used as a weapon, it requires a melee touch attack and the wielder does not add their Strength bonus to the damage. Marks left behind by a mapmaker's stick may be removed with an erase spell. Healing spells restore the damage, but do not remove the marks. A mapmaker's stick only functions for creatures with the Chaotic subtype (or those who succeed on a Use Magic Device check to emulate the Chaotic subtype).

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Rod, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, arcane mark, erase, creator must have the Chaotic subtype; Price 5,000 gp.​Apart from that quibble, I think we're good to go.

EDIT: I've just read freyar's post and realized the mapmaker should get a +1 attack bonus with its stick if it acts like a +1 magical weapon, giving it +13/+8 melee instead of +12/+7.



freyar said:


> I'm not sure why these rods have the +1 light mace bit since they are touch attacks, but that's ok too. I'm happy with it.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> Blindsight 60 feet?




I agree to blindsight, but I'd be tempted to drop the range to 30 feet or so, even though the original "detects hidden or invisible beings within 60 feet".



Shade said:


> All-terrain movement like the roller sheen?




 Sure, why not.



Shade said:


> We'll need to give it a decent Str score.  Improved Critical as a bonus feat with its scythe?




I'd give it a high Strength and weapon damage a size larger than usual. Either give it that extraordinary ability some munchkin PC races have to wield oversized weapons (I forget what its called) or give it a supernatural ability that (nonmagical?) weapons it wields are treated as a size larger.



Shade said:


> Single Actions only like a zombie?




No, I'll vote for standard actions.



Shade said:


> Improved grab/constrict?




Definitely.



Shade said:


> Str 20, Dex 8, Con -, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 17?




I'd swap the Wisdom and Charisma around, since this thing has such keen senses, isn't described as being very social and lacks spell-like attacks.

So, Str 20, Dex 8, Con -, Int 7, Wis 17, Cha 12?


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

I'd like to keep the high Cha, but I'm willing to duplicate the 17 in Wis.  

I see no reason to reduce the blindsight range, since the original had 60-foot range.  It's not like it benefits greatly due to ranged attacks or whatnot.

Added to Homebrews.

Also, fixed Mapmaker.


----------



## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

Let's keep blindsight 60 ft.  Going with the Dex penalty makes the most sense.

1d8+Str for constrict?

Shall we work on the cart?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'd like to keep the high Cha, but I'm willing to duplicate the 17 in Wis.
> 
> I see no reason to reduce the blindsight range, since the original had 60-foot range.  It's not like it benefits greatly due to ranged attacks or whatnot




That's OK by me, as is freyar's 1d8 Constrict.

Could it do two-handed strength bonus with Constrict (1d8+7 instead of 1d8+5), since it uses both arms?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> Shall we work on the cart?




OK, the most important thing is to make the name of the SQ a dreadful pun...

I'm thinking the ankou will need an innate plane shift power in order to return to Hades during daylight hours and load corpses on its extradimensional cart. I made it a full-round action so it's not that not usable in combat as a "pop into reality"  ambush like some ethereal beasties have.
*Cart Off the Dead (Su):* An invisible, intangible cart drawn by an equally spectral horse or ox follows the ankou wherever it goes, a gift from some netherworld god. The cart and its draft animal can be heard by beings on the material plane, and leaves cart-ruts and hoofprints as a sign of its passage, but it exists on the astral (or ethereal?) plane and may not be damaged by or harm creatures on the material plane. If creatures enter the astral plane using _plane shift_ or similar spells they can see the cart of the dead normally and attack it. The draft beast has the statistics of a fiendish bison or a fiendish heavy warhorse.

An ankou piles the bodies of those it slays onto the cart using its plane shift power. Every dawn, the cart returns to Tartarus with any corpses it carries, the absence of a body would obviously prevent the use of _raise dead_ or an easy determination of the fate of the victim.

*Plane Shift (Su):* An ankou can shift between the prime material and the astral plane as a full-round action.​


----------



## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

That's pretty good.  Astral makes sense, since it has to get to Carceri, and I'd go with fiendish heavy warhorse.  Plane shift at will?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 18, 2009)

freyar said:


> That's pretty good.  Astral makes sense, since it has to get to Carceri, and I'd go with fiendish heavy warhorse.  Plane shift at will?




That's what I was going for. I can add an explicit reference to the spell.

Come to think of it, it also needs to be able to _plane shift_ into Carceri, I'd better add that too.
*Plane Shift (Su):* An ankou can shift between the astral plane and either the prime material plane or Carceri (or vice-versa) as a full-round action. Unlike the _plane shift_ spell, this at-will power does not allow the ankou to shift other creatures between planes, although it can shift while carrying or wearing any inanimate object(s) it can lift.

The ankou routinely uses its Plane Shift power to load the corpses of its victims onto its Cart Off the Dead, and to unload them into Carceri.​


----------



## freyar (Oct 18, 2009)

The last paragraph could go in tactics or flavor, but I like that.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Plane shift looks good, but I'm wondering if the cart couldn't be simplified to something along the lines of phantom steed or unseen servant?  They weren't supposed to be able to be attacked at all, and I'd rather not add the Astral/Ethereal dual-plane complexity.


----------



## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

Phantom steed, but invisible and sound-producing instead of the other way round?  Then the ankou can plane shift it?  Actually, I like that a lot.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Do we want it to be able to be drawn into battle, like the phantom steed, or be true to the original text that it cannot be attacked (but can be dispelled with certain spells)?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Plane shift looks good, but I'm wondering if the cart couldn't be simplified to something along the lines of phantom steed or unseen servant?  They weren't supposed to be able to be attacked at all, and I'd rather not add the Astral/Ethereal dual-plane complexity.




I thought about doing it that way, although I was thinking of _mordenkainen's floating disk_ rather than the spells you mentioned, but I decided I liked the idea of fiendish astral ox-carts better. Still, if that's what you prefer we could do something like instead:*Cart Off the Dead (Su):* An ankou is followed everywhere it goes by an invisible cart pulled by an equally invisible ox or horse. The cart and its beast of burden produce noise and leave a trail of wheel-ruts and hoof-prints like a normal horse- or ox-cart would. The Cart of the Dead can travel over any terrain without any penalty, even rolling across or through water, and can carry a load of up to 1000 pounds. Neither cart nor beast can be damaged by any weapon or spell, although it can be dismissed from existence by an _exorcism_, _dispel evil_ or a similar higher-level banishment spell. The ankou can resummon a banished Cart of the Dead the following night.​EDIT: Forgot the resummoning bit, so I added it in.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 19, 2009)

I like Shade's suggestion of no battle with the cart, but dismissing it is possible.


----------



## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like Shade's suggestion of no battle with the cart, but dismissing it is possible.



In that case, are we agreed that Cleon's new writeup is ok?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 20, 2009)

Giving it an explicit size might be good. Is it a 10ft square? Can it be interacted with (say, by climbing up on it for higher ground?)


----------



## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

Good point.  Unfortunately, the standard cart's writeup doesn't give it a size, just carrying capacity (1/2 ton), so we can't just say it behaves like a normal cart.

10 by 10 sounds fine, though.


----------



## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm not sure you should be able to interact with it if you can't assault it, in which case the size doesn't matter so much.  I'd kind of like the idea that only the ankou can interact with it.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure you should be able to interact with it if you can't assault it, in which case the size doesn't matter so much.  I'd kind of like the idea that only the ankou can interact with it.




I'd like to add something about what happens to objects (like corpses!) loaded into the cart - do they become invisible and intangible? Do they hang in mid-air? Do they vanish if the cart is dispelled? Currently, I'm thinking of something like this:The cart can only carry inanimate objects, which become as invisible and intangible as the cart itself. Only the ankou can load or unload the cart, but if the cart is dismissed any objects it is carrying regain physicality and fall to the ground.​


----------



## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

I like that approach.


----------



## freyar (Oct 21, 2009)

Same here, very nice.


----------



## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

So putting it all together...

Cart Of the Dead (Su): An ankou is followed everywhere it goes by an invisible cart pulled by an equally invisible ox or horse. The cart and its beast of burden produce noise and leave a trail of wheel-ruts and hoof-prints like a normal horse- or ox-cart would. The Cart of the Dead can travel over any terrain without any penalty, even rolling across or through water, and can carry a load of up to 1,000 pounds. The cart can only carry inanimate objects, which become as invisible and intangible as the cart itself. Only the ankou can load or unload the cart, but if the cart is dismissed any objects it is carrying regain physicality and fall to the ground. Neither cart nor beast can be damaged by any weapon or spell, although it can be dismissed from existence by an exorcism, dispel evil or a similar higher-level banishment spell. The ankou can resummon a banished Cart of the Dead the following night.

Edit:  I know you liked the pun, Cleon, but I think most folk will think the ability name of "Cart Off the Dead" is a typo when we refer to "Cart of the Dead" in the description.


----------



## freyar (Oct 22, 2009)

Suddenly, this monster is giving me flashbacks to the Princess Bride.


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Suddenly, this monster is giving me flashbacks to the Princess Bride.




_Anybody want a peanut?_ 

Updated.

I think the only ability left to tacke is this...



> The touch of holy water instantly causes it and its cart to return to the nether realms of Tartarus without the possibility of a saving throw.




Like so?

Banished by Holy Water (Ex):  An ankou struck by holy water (even only a splash) is immediately forced to return to its home plane (no saving throw).


----------



## freyar (Oct 22, 2009)

Works for me.


----------



## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

Skills: 22

Feats: Improved Critical (scythe)(B), 3 more


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2009)

Why is the attack bonus of the scythe so low? Also, we've also got the "banished by holy water" in ankou weaknesses.

How 'bout Imp. Init, Power Attack and Weapon Focus?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 24, 2009)

Shade said:


> So putting it all together...
> 
> Cart Of the Dead (Su): An ankou is followed everywhere it goes by an invisible cart pulled by an equally invisible ox or horse. The cart and its beast of burden produce noise and leave a trail of wheel-ruts and hoof-prints like a normal horse- or ox-cart would. The Cart of the Dead can travel over any terrain without any penalty, even rolling across or through water, and can carry a load of up to 1,000 pounds. The cart can only carry inanimate objects, which become as invisible and intangible as the cart itself. Only the ankou can load or unload the cart, but if the cart is dismissed any objects it is carrying regain physicality and fall to the ground. Neither cart nor beast can be damaged by any weapon or spell, although it can be dismissed from existence by an exorcism, dispel evil or a similar higher-level banishment spell. The ankou can resummon a banished Cart of the Dead the following night.
> 
> Edit:  I know you liked the pun, Cleon, but I think most folk will think the ability name of "Cart Off the Dead" is a typo when we refer to "Cart of the Dead" in the description.




That looks fine to me.

I wasn't being _entirely_ serious about the extra "f", so I'll forgive you the excisement.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 24, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Why is the attack bonus of the scythe so low? Also, we've also got the "banished by holy water" in ankou weaknesses.
> 
> How 'bout Imp. Init, Power Attack and Weapon Focus?




It seems to  missing its Strength bonus, I reckon it should get scythe melee +10 [assuming it has Weapon Focus (scythe)] and slam melee +9.

Those feats look OK to me.

As for skills, my first thought was maxed-out Hide and Move Silently since it's pretty slow, so may want to sneak up on its victims, but upon reflection its got that creaking cart behind it, so MS isn't much use.

Also, doesn't the original say something about it tracking its victims? That implies the Survival skill and the Track feat. It doesn't need Spot or Listen to find its victims, since it's got blindsight.

Give it Track instead of Power Attack or Track as a bonus feat? It's got a pretty mediocre attack bonus for its HD, so it may not get much value out of Power Attack, but overall I prefer it as a bonus feat.

So, 11 ranks in Hide & Survival, giving it Hide +10, Survival +14, plus Track as a bonus feat?


----------



## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

I'd go with Track as a bonus feat because it's something all ankou should probably have.  Skills sound fine.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'd go with Track as a bonus feat because it's something all ankou should probably have.  Skills sound fine.




That was my reasoning too.


----------



## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

Good suggestions all around.

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: None?

Advancement: 9-24 HD (Medium)?

Ankou speak Abyssal, Common, and Infernal?


----------



## freyar (Oct 27, 2009)

CR 6?  Other suggestions seem good.

Let's mention that the ankou can plane shift its cart, too.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 27, 2009)

freyar said:


> CR 6?  Other suggestions seem good.
> 
> Let's mention that the ankou can plane shift its cart, too.




Well it obviously should, we can just add "The ankou's Cart of the Dead and everything it carries will plane shift with the ankou."

Not sure about CR6. It doesn't have much in the way of special attacks, has mediocre AC, is slow on its feet and doesn't do that much damage. Challenge Rating 4-5 would seem more appropriate.

I'll be generous and propose CR5.


----------



## freyar (Oct 27, 2009)

Fair enough on CR.  The damage output is pretty good, but you're right about AC.  He's kind of squishy.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2009)

Give it more natural armor (or a profane bonus to AC) and it'll be a CR 5.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 28, 2009)

freyar said:


> Fair enough on CR.  The damage output is pretty good, but you're right about AC.  He's kind of squishy.




Oh, I wasn't trying to imply the  damage output was too low, but it seems mediocre-average for a Challenge Rating 6. It's damage output is about the same as the CR6 Bralani and Chain Devil, which also have a number of combat-useful supernatural powers. More combat oriented CR6 monsters (like the Hag, Wyvern or even the Lamia) can put out a lot more damage full attacking. I won't include the 7-headed hydra for comparison, 3rd edition under-CR'd that thing!

I'm fine with 5 though, especially if we tweak its AC like demiurge proposes.


----------



## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

Updated.

I gave it one point of profane bonus for each layer of Carceri.  



> If an ankou’s victim escapes alive, it will follow him at its slow, plodding pace for the rest of the night, until it either catches and dispassionately kills him, or until the first light of dawn intrudes, banishing the ankou back to Tartarus until the next dusk. It has no memory to speak of and so will not resume its pursuit the next night out of any spite. But if the ankou encounters the same traveler on some subsequent night, it will attack him normally, as if the first encounter had never occurred.




I worked this into the flavor text, but do we need to add to the ankou weaknesses that it is automatically returned to Carceri at the first light of dawn?


----------



## freyar (Oct 28, 2009)

I'd say so.  Then I'd say it's done.


----------



## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

*Tymher-haid*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any inhabited
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Swarm
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-3)
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: (10-100 “sparks”)
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: Fl 18 (A)
HIT DICE: See below
THAC0: See below
NO.OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1/10 of a point
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to fire, psionics, and illusions
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1” sparks)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: Half basic XP value (as per DMG, Table 31) for its hit dice

When powerful evil people or creatures are slain, there is a chance that they will return to plague the living as undead, such as wights, spectres, and ghosts. Weaker and less evil creatures usually do not suffer this fate, but if a large number of them are killed at one time and place, and if they don.t receive proper funerary rites, they may return as an exceedingly minor form of undead, called collectively a tymher-haid, or “ghost-swarm”.

A tymher-haid is both beautiful and horrible to behold. The individual members appear as small, multicolored sparks in a loosely defined mass, forming a brilliant display in the air. The only thing that disturbs this image is the fact that a tymher-haid reserves its most dazzling displays for attacking any living creatures it comes across. Swooping and diving in intricate arcs, a tymher-haid gradually “stings” its victim to death.

Combat: When attacking, a tymherhaid descends on its victim like a swarm of wasps, singeing its prey with every fiery touch. A “spark” does only a tenth of a point of damage each, but the sheer number of spark stings (up to one hundred per round) will eventually overwhelm most any victim not resistant to fire. Each spark attacks by swooping down at its victim and giving it a minute burn upon contact. As it gains speed on its approach, its coloration becomes more intense and grows brighter, building up the energy it will deliver to its victim before dulling back to its normal appearance after striking. Thus, for someone not in the midst of an attack, the kaleidoscopic patterns and colors of the mass attacks are beautiful to behold. A tymher-haid attacks as if it were a single creature, dividing the total number of sparks it contains by 10 (always rounding down) to determine its effective hit dice. Thus, a swarm of 52 sparks would attack as a 5 HD creature and a 49-spark swarm would have 4 HD. Because the tymher-haid attacks from all sides simultaneously, shield and dexterity bonuses to the victim’s armor class are ignored, and the tymher-haid gains a bonus of +2 to hit due to its members’ small size. If the tymher-haid scores a hit, damage done by the many stings is equal to its effective hit dice. If the tymher-haid drops below 10 sparks, a successful attack does less than a point of damage, so while it will remain a distraction sufficient to disrupt spell-casting, it is no longer a threat to most life.

As each spark is nearly mindless, thetymher-haid uses only the simplest of tactics in combat. In fact, a tymher-haid will only infrequently (20% of the time) divide its attacks among multiple opponents, usually concentrating on killing one creature before it turns its attention to another. Because it doesn’t care what living creature it kills, a tymher-haid will consider attacking any living creature near it including humans, riding beasts, pack animals, birds on nearby trees, or passing swarms of insects. Usually, whatever nearby creature makes itself the most noticeable, by way of large size, movement, sound, or other attention-getting activities, finds itself the next victim of an attacking swarm.

Conversely, this mindlessness makes it immune to the effects of most psionics or illusions, as those effects are spread equally amongst all the constituent sparks in the crowd. Each spark within a tymher-haid has only a single hit point, but a spark.s small size and high maneuverability make it hard to hit with normal weapons. The sparks are immune to all fire-based attacks but are particularly vulnerable to water. A flask of water sprayed into a tymher-haid will kill 1d6 sparks (holy water kills twice that number), and a create water spell will destroy 2d10 sparks per level of the caster. In addition, spells such as protection from evil keep it at bay, while a raise dead spell kills the tymher-haid instantly. Clerics will find them relatively easy to turn (treated as skeletons), but as only 2d6 sparks are normally turned or destroyed by a cleric performing this attack, it might not serve much purpose.

Habitat/Society: No matter what race of creature they were in life, the sparks of a tymher-haid understand no language. They communicate with each other by a limited form of telepathy that serves only to transmit imperatives such as “target” and “threat” identification.. A mind-reading creature would detect no mind at all in one spark, and only the most rudimentary one in the tymher-haid as a whole. A tymher-haid needs no food to sustain itself and gains no pleasure from killing creatures. In this respect, it acts more as an uncaring force of nature like the wind and rain than as an undead monster like a ghoul or wraith.

Although such an occurrence would be exceedingly rare, if two tymher-haid swarms encountered each other, they would merge into a single tymher-haid, behaving in all ways as if they had always been a single group-entity.

Ecology: A tymher-haid is a naturally (though rarely) occurring undead, originating in places of great carnage such as gutted dungeons and bloodied battlefields, but not appearing until the dead are long forgotten, sometimes not for years after their deaths. Because of the sparks’ vulnerability to water, a tymher-haid does not often survive for long after its formation, being more likely to die in a normal rainstorm than at the hands of adventurers. Thus, a tymher-haid usually does not get far from its place of origin.

Because a tymher-haid is formed of such commonly available stock, more than one evil necromancer has attempted to discover a spell that will create or control one. While they have several similarities to the lowest forms of undead, the corpses animated using the animate dead spell on the site of a mass death (where a tymher-haid might be expected to form) would create zombies and skeletons but no swarm of deadly sparks. Even powerful necromancers find themselves unable to work with a tymher-haid, as the controlundead spell grants control over only six sparks at a time. Only the most dedicated of necromancers would dedicate years of research to create and control a tymher-haid.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #186 (1992).


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2009)

One word: swarm.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I gave it one point of profane bonus for each layer of Carceri.
> 
> I worked this into the flavor text, but do we need to add to the ankou weaknesses that it is automatically returned to Carceri at the first light of dawn?




Yes we should.

Also, weren't we going to mention the Cart of the Dead plane-shifts with the ankou? Something like:Plane Shift (Su): At will, an ankou can shift between the Astral Plane and either the Material Plane or the Tarterian Depths of Carceri (or vice-versa) as a full-round action. An ankou's Cart of the Dead and everything it is loaded with will plane shift with the ankou. The ankou cannot shift other creatures between planes, although it can shift while carrying or wearing any inanimate object(s) it can lift.​I'm also thinking we should tweak the Cart of the Dead text to mention that its contents fall out if the Ankou is banished as well as if the Cart is banished, which can be done by the addition of a few words, e.g.:Cart Of the Dead (Su): An ankou is followed everywhere it goes by an invisible cart pulled by an equally invisible ox or horse. The cart and its beast of burden produce noise and leave a trail of wheel-ruts and hoof-prints like a normal horse- or ox-cart would. The Cart of the Dead can travel over any terrain without any penalty, even rolling across or through water, and can carry a load of up to 1,000 pounds. The cart can only carry inanimate objects, which become as invisible and intangible as the cart itself. Only the ankou can load or unload the cart, but if the cart is dismissed any objects it is carrying regain physicality and fall to the ground. Neither cart nor beast can be damaged by any weapon or spell, although it can be dismissed from existence by an exorcism, dispel evil or a similar higher-level banishment spell, or by the destruction or banishment of its ankou. The ankou can resummon a banished Cart of the Dead the following night.​


----------



## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> One word: swarm.




Two words: Undead (Swarm).

Nay, make in four words: Tiny Undead (Incorporeal, Swarm).

Looks like this will be a pretty straightforward job. Fly 50 ft (perfect), fire damage by swarming touch attack, takes damage from water.

The Hit Dice is debatable. The text says it has 1-10 Hit Dice, averaging 5 HD, but if it has 55 hit points on average, that would be 8-9 HD with an Undead's 1d12 Hit Dice.

Unless we give it 5 HD, Cha 18-21 and Unholy Toughness for the +Cha hp/die, for 5d12+20 (52 hp) or 5d12+25 (57 hp)...


----------



## Shade (Oct 30, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Yes we should.




Already did.  



Cleon said:


> Also, weren't we going to mention the Cart of the Dead plane-shifts with the ankou?




Odd.  I remember typing that very revision, but don't see it now.  I wonder if I lost that during one of the (thankfully more rare) timeouts.  I'll fix it.



Cleon said:


> [/INDENT]I'm also thinking we should tweak the Cart of the Dead text to mention that its contents fall out if the Ankou is banished as well as if the Cart is banished, which can be done by the addition of a few words, e.g.:Cart Of the Dead (Su): An ankou is followed everywhere it goes by an invisible cart pulled by an equally invisible ox or horse. The cart and its beast of burden produce noise and leave a trail of wheel-ruts and hoof-prints like a normal horse- or ox-cart would. The Cart of the Dead can travel over any terrain without any penalty, even rolling across or through water, and can carry a load of up to 1,000 pounds. The cart can only carry inanimate objects, which become as invisible and intangible as the cart itself. Only the ankou can load or unload the cart, but if the cart is dismissed any objects it is carrying regain physicality and fall to the ground. Neither cart nor beast can be damaged by any weapon or spell, although it can be dismissed from existence by an exorcism, dispel evil or a similar higher-level banishment spell, or by the destruction or banishment of its ankou. The ankou can resummon a banished Cart of the Dead the following night.​




Sure, sounds good.  I'll make the change.


----------



## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

Onto our swarmy friends.  Let's do 9HD but not unholy toughness this time.  I also see that they have Int, but, despite the little bit about telepathic communication, they almost seem mindless from the rest of the flavor text.  What do you all think?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2009)

They could just have an animal intelligence. Enough for skills and feats.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 31, 2009)

freyar said:


> Onto our swarmy friends.  Let's do 9HD but not unholy toughness this time.  I also see that they have Int, but, despite the little bit about telepathic communication, they almost seem mindless from the rest of the flavor text.  What do you all think?




9 Hit Dice is my preference too.

I'd give them *Intelligence *2 or 3, like in the original writeup.

As for the other Abilities...

Being Incorporeal Undead, they won't have *Strength *or *Constitution* scores.

*Dexterity* is presumably pretty high. How about Dexterity 20, so they get AC17 with their (assumed) Tiny size adjustment, to match the original's Armour Class of 3?

*Wisdom* and *Charisma* the same as a Shadow, i.e. Wis 12 & Cha 13?

Put that together and I get something like:
Str [FONT=&quot]–, Dex 20, Con[FONT=&quot] –[/FONT], Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 13[/FONT]

​


----------



## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

Those ability scores sound fine.  Let's not forget the hivemind SQ, then.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2009)

Agreed to those ability scores and to Hivemind.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 1, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to those ability scores and to Hivemind.




How would Hivemind work? I'm thinking something simple, such as:
*Hivemind (Ex?):* A tymher-haid is immune to mind-reading effects and all telepathic attacks because its intelligence is distributed evenly among all the sparks in the swarm. Each individual tymher-haid is virtually mindless.​


----------



## freyar (Nov 1, 2009)

Well, there's sort of an implication in the Swarm subtype that Intelligent swarms should have hive minds, a la the hellwasp swarm (are there any non-mindless swarms without hive mind?):



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Hive Mind (Ex): Any hellwasp swarm with at least 1 hit point per Hit Die (or 12 hit points, for a standard hellwasp swarm) forms a hive mind, giving it an Intelligence of 6. When a hellwasp swarm is reduced below this hit point threshold, it becomes mindless.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 1, 2009)

Yep. Bats and rats. Int 2.


----------



## freyar (Nov 1, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yep. Bats and rats. Int 2.



Ah, of course!  Well, I still think the following justifies Hive Mind in this case:



> They communicate with each other by a limited form of telepathy that serves only to transmit imperatives such as “target” and “threat” identification.. A mind-reading creature would detect no mind at all in one spark, and only the most rudimentary one in the tymher-haid as a whole


----------



## Cleon (Nov 2, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, there's sort of an implication in the Swarm subtype that Intelligent swarms should have hive minds, a la the hellwasp swarm (are there any non-mindless swarms without hive mind?):
> _
> 
> 
> ...




That will work. Do we want to add immunity to mind reading as part of hive mind? The rest of the telepathic/psionic resistance can come from the standard Undead resistance to mind-affecting powers, e.g.:*Hive Mind (Ex):* Any tymher-haid swarm with at least 1 hit point per Hit Die (or 9 hit points, for a standard tymher-haid swarm) forms a hive mind, giving it an Intelligence of 3. When a tymher-haid swarm is reduced below this hit point threshold, it becomes mindless. An intelligent tymher-haid swarm is immune to mind-reading effects.​


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Can we re-use this?

Vulnerability to Water (Ex): Scorched ones are particularly vulnerable to water, and contact with it (such as reaching into a pool or being splashed with a vial or bucket of water) inflicts 2d6 points of damage per strike. Complete immersion (including being caught in the rain or being subjected to a high volume of water, as from the geyser function of a decanter of endless water) inflicts 6d6 points of damage per round.


----------



## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

I don't think we need extra immunity to mind-reading, do we?  Detect thoughts, for example, is already mind-affecting.

Vulnerability to water looks good, though we can think about changing damage values if we want.


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2009)

Good point on the "mind reading" bit.  Undead are already immune to mind-affecting, so we're good.

I think those damage values will work, but I'm open to adjustments.

Updated.

2d6 or 3d6 swarm damage?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

freyar said:


> I don't think we need extra immunity to mind-reading, do we?  Detect thoughts, for example, is already mind-affecting.
> 
> Vulnerability to water looks good, though we can think about changing damage values if we want.




Well I'll admit I can only think of one mind-reading spells that isn't mind-affecting, _telepathic bond_, but I fear that lots of examples I don't know about will rear their ugly heads if we didn't specifically exclude mind-reading spells.

Admittedly in the case of _telepathic bond_ it only works on willing participants, but it's more the principle of the thing.

Vulnerability to Water looks good, but I'd cut the damage to half, except for holy water:
V*ulnerability to Water (Ex):* tymher-haid swarms are particularly vulnerable to water, and contact with it (such as reaching into a pool or being splashed with a vial or bucket of water) inflicts 1d6 points of damage per strike. Complete immersion (including being caught in the rain or being subjected to a high volume of water, as from the geyser function of a decanter of endless water) inflicts 3d6 points of damage per round. Holy water inflicts double this damage (e.g. 2d6 per vial).​


----------



## Shade (Nov 4, 2009)

I can live with those rare exceptions affecting them (it seems no stranger than their effect on other creatures immune to mind-influencing effects).

I'm fine with the reduced damage on vulnerabilty to water.

Updated.

2d6 or 3d6 swarm damage? 

Skills: 12

Feats: 4

Environment: Any?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 4, 2009)

Shade said:


> I can live with those rare exceptions affecting them (it seems no stranger than their effect on other creatures immune to mind-influencing effects).




Oh well, I guess it doesn't make any significant difference. 

I'm fine with the reduced damage on vulnerabilty to water.



Shade said:


> 2d6 or 3d6 swarm damage?




2d6 fire damage?



Shade said:


> Skills: 12




6 ranks apiece in Listen and Spot?



Shade said:


> Feats: 4




How about Ability Focus (distraction), Alertness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes?



Shade said:


> Environment: Any?




Any land or underground. You won't encounter many aquatic Tymher-haid swarms!


----------



## Shade (Nov 4, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Any land or underground. You won't encounter many aquatic Tymher-haid swarms!




Only at the moment of impact!  

The rest looks good.

Updated.

CR 3-4?  They are weaker and less deadly than another incorporeal swarm, the 12 HD ephemeral swarm (CR 5).


----------



## Leopold (Nov 5, 2009)

CR 4, right in the middle


----------



## Cleon (Nov 6, 2009)

Leopold said:


> CR 4, right in the middle




Yes Challenge Rating 4 is about right. Normally I'd think a 9HD incorporeal undead swarm would be CR5, but their vulnerability to water is a significant and easily exploited weakness which merits tipping them down to 4.


----------



## freyar (Nov 7, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Yes Challenge Rating 4 is about right. Normally I'd think a 9HD incorporeal undead swarm would be CR5, but their vulnerability to water is a significant and easily exploited weakness which merits tipping them down to 4.



Well, assuming the party figures it out!  But I agree with CR 4.

EDIT: Wait, why are these Tiny again?  They read like Diminutive or even Fine.  That would potentially make them a bit tougher.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, assuming the party figures it out!  But I agree with CR 4.
> 
> EDIT: Wait, why are these Tiny again?  They read like Diminutive or even Fine.  That would potentially make them a bit tougher.




I can't speak for anyone else, but I though they should be Tiny because the original version could be harmed by normal weapons (although they were "hard to hit"). If we made them smaller that wouldn't be an option.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Nice catch, freyar!   They are supposed to be "1-inch sparks", which is a far cry from Tiny.

So it looks like they should be Fine, and thus much tougher to kill.   That vulnerability to water just became much more important.  

Updated.

So, bump to CR 5?


----------



## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but I though they should be Tiny because the original version could be harmed by normal weapons (although they were "hard to hit"). If we made them smaller that wouldn't be an option.




I think this is just an example of different editions having different mechanics.  I'd much rather match the original flavor than change their basic nature (ie, size) just to match one mechanical issue.



Shade said:


> Nice catch, freyar!   They are supposed to be "1-inch sparks", which is a far cry from Tiny.
> 
> So it looks like they should be Fine, and thus much tougher to kill.   That vulnerability to water just became much more important.
> 
> ...




Yes, I'd bump it.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


----------



## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

Looking good to me, though we should see what Cleon thinks.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> I think this is just an example of different editions having different mechanics.  I'd much rather match the original flavor than change their basic nature (ie, size) just to match one mechanical issue.
> 
> Yes, I'd bump it.




I'd prefer to keep the original mechanics (damage from normal weapons) and fix the size to fit rather than vica-versa. There are some swarm-like entities in AD&D that are functionally immune to weapon damage, but the original Tymher-haid is not one of them.

Still, it wouldn't bother me if you want to drop them to Fine, but it should certainly increase the CR to 5.



Shade said:


> Nice catch, freyar!   They are supposed to be "1-inch sparks", which is a far cry from Tiny.




Maybe it's a AD&D dungeon movement scale inch, and they are actually ten feet across.

EDIT: Oh yes, the stats look fine to me, so we can declare it finished if you prefer a Fine sized swarm.


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm Fine with it.  

*Tyerkow*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 6
% IN LAIR: 15%
TREASURE TYPE: E
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite or 1 weapon
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3 or by weapon type ( + 2 for strength)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Blood drain, charm person, summon rats (only)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Regeneration, special spell and poison immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

A speech- and tool-using, man-eating, undead monster. The tyerkow does not drain life levels, but its bite drains 1-4 hp per round from its charmed victims. It has the same powers of regeneration, summoning, and charming that normal AD&D game vampires have, but it cannot assume gaseous form or shape change. Garlic, holy symbols, holy water, running water, mirrors, and sunlight affect tyerkows just as they do normal vampires. Additionally, taking the skin of a tyerkow and burning it dooms the monster, for it will disintegrate forever at dawn. A tyerkow is a city-dwelling vampire. It can move about normally by day while wearing its skin, even in direct sunlight (though it dislikes doing so). A tyerkow always operates alone, and it has a strength of 18 (nonpercentile).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #122 (1987).


----------



## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Umm, variant vampire template?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> Umm, variant vampire template?




It's a lot weaker than a true vampire. I'd say a regular non-template monster, using the Vampire Spawn as a foundation.

Take the Vampire Spawn, Increase Strength to 18, maybe reduce its Dex or NA since it's only got AD&D AC7, although I would think we should aim for something a tad better than Armour Class 13. Drop the Energy Drain (I'd let it keep Blood Drain though), Damage Reduction and Gaseous Form, Add a reduced form of the Template Vamp's Children of the Night (1d3 rat swarms?) and add a 'skin trick' SQ.

Upon reflection, I'd keep the Vamp Spawn's +3 natural armour and +2 Dex, that's still pretty weak for a 6HD Undead, I could even see tweaking it up to a ghast's +4 NA.

So, 6 Hit Dice, Natural Armour +3, Str 18, Dex 14, Con -, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14.

Now, I'm guessing the 'skin trick' will let it masquerade as a living creature, but is it the Tyerkow's original skin, or does it steal the skin of a victim?

There's no mention as to how they propagate, make them Create Spawn from creatures they've blood-drained to death?


----------



## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

So comparing to vampire template...

*SA*
Blood drain = unchanged
Children of the night = rat swarms only
Create Spawn = ??
Dominate = unchanged
Energy drain = drop

*SQ*
Alternate Form = drop
Damage Reduction = unchanged?
Fast Healing = remove the "forced into gaseous form" portion
Gaseous Form = drop
Resistances = unchanged?
Spider Climb = unchanged?
Turn Resistance = unchanged?

*Weaknesses*
Drop the coffin/stake portions, and give it a special "wear skin" ability to move about in daylight, along with a vulnerability to having its skin destroyed?


----------



## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Is dominate unchanged or reduced to charm person/monster?  How's the fast healing going to work when they get to 0 hp (ie, do they just go comatose on the battlefield for an hour unless opponents perform a special vampire coup-de-grace)?

I guess I could still go either way on monster vs template.  They're between vampire spawn and vampires to me.


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2009)

Good questions!

I can't seem to find any information on the real-world inspiration of this creature (it's from the "Monsters of Africa" article that also gave us the chepekwe, dingonek, and ngojama).

Your power level assumption is spot-on, though, as the 1e vampire had 8+3 HD.  So I'd be fine with either template or monster.

It's still tough to figure out what happens upon reaching 0 hp, since they lack gaseous form.


----------



## freyar (Nov 12, 2009)

Well, I guess we get to make stuff up!

First question first: I lean toward template slightly, but Cleon's preference for monster may be stronger.  Cleon, how do you feel about this?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 13, 2009)

I could go either way. I'd prefer monster, but only slightly.


----------



## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

Let's just go the monster route, and add an underbar with notes on modifying the vampire template to make a templated version.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, I guess we get to make stuff up!
> 
> First question first: I lean toward template slightly, but Cleon's preference for monster may be stronger.  Cleon, how do you feel about this?




I'm not seeing any good cause for making them a template, so I'll back base monster. There's nothing in the description to point to any more individuality in these undead than a standard bodak, wight or ghoul.



Shade said:


> Let's just go the monster route, and add an underbar with notes on modifying the vampire template to make a templated version.




Sounds fine to me.

We could copy our take on the Netherese Zombie and have the template require a base creature with 6 or more hit dice.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> So comparing to vampire template...
> 
> *SA*
> Blood drain = unchanged
> ...




Looks good.

I was going to drop the Damage Resistance, and keep the Spider Climb, Cold & Electricity Resistance and Turn Resistance.

Regarding the Fast Healing at 0 hit point problem, I suppose they could "drop dead" for an hour, then spring back to live if the body is not staked/burnt/doused in holy water (or whatever) first.


----------



## freyar (Nov 13, 2009)

If we're doing monster, I don't really see a need for a template underbar, actually.

Cleon's suggestions are pretty good, though I think I'd rather keep DR and drop spider climb.  Not a big deal, though.


----------



## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> If we're doing monster, I don't really see a need for a template underbar, actually.




Fair enough, and a great timesaver.  



freyar said:


> Cleon's suggestions are pretty good, though I think I'd rather keep DR and drop spider climb.  Not a big deal, though.




I'm neither here nor there on spider climb, but the DR needs to stay.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 14, 2009)

Keep DR--melee undead are fragile.

Drop spider climb.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Keep DR--melee undead are fragile.
> 
> Drop spider climb.




Don't mind giving it the DR. I wanted to drop it because the original monster has no special weapon-resistance, but 5 points of Damage Reduction doesn't make a great difference.

I'd prefer to keep the spider climb though, to give it at least one exotic form of manoeuvrability. It already lacks the ability to move as a wolf, bat or sinister cloud.

Would anyone object to giving it both?


----------



## freyar (Nov 14, 2009)

Well, likewise, the original didn't have any "exotic" movement types, but I'm ok with keeping both.  I just didn't want to drop DR mostly.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> I can't seem to find any information on the real-world inspiration of this creature (it's from the "Monsters of Africa" article that also gave us the chepekwe, dingonek, and ngojama).




After investing an undue amount of time in research (alright, I spent a few hours Googling ) I haven't had much luck finding any solid info on the *Tyerkow*. It appears to be based on West African folklore, which includes several forms of Vampire-like spirit.

The *Asabosam* is a man-eating nocturnal jungle spirit that can masquerade as a human, but has iron teeth and iron hooks for feet. It likes to lurk in trees, from which it grabs up victims with its feet, rips out their throat with its teeth to drink their blood and then feasts on their flesh. Once satisfied, it will scatter whatever parts remain around the jungle floor. They'll sometimes toy with their prey like a cat with a mouse.

That doesn't sound much like a Tyerkow, so it must be a different monster.

There are also a variety of "witches" which look like ordinary humans during the day (they're often old crones, but could look like anyone), but take off their skins and fly around at night, often in the form of a fireball or while emitting fire from, ah, various orifices.

There are lots of different versions of this creature, such as the Ashanti's *Obayifo*, and similar entities appear in Caribbean folklore such as the *Ole-Higue* or *Soucouyant*.

My suspicion is that a Tyerkow is some version of the latter kind of spirit,


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

For the attack lines, are we sticking with slams, and require grapple for bite, or do we want to give them bite as a natural attack to differentiate them further?


----------



## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

I don't really like the idea of a melee bite, especially without requiring a grapple for blood drain.   So I guess I'd stick with slams.  If we want to differentiate them, I could see claws instead with lowish damage and possibly imp grab.

I still think we need to reduce domination to a charm effect.


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> I still think we need to reduce domination to a charm effect.




How come?  Even the lowly vampire spawn have dominate.


----------



## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

It just seems pretty well spelled out in the original monster (unless, of course, the older-edition vampires also had dominate described as "charm").  It might be a point of differentiation.


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

Sure enough..



			
				AD&D Monster Manual said:
			
		

> If it gazes into a person’s eyes, the
> vampire will have the effect of charming, with the victim subtracting 2
> from the saving throw versus magic. Charmed persons behave as if they
> had been successfully struck with a charm person spell.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> I don't really like the idea of a melee bite, especially without requiring a grapple for blood drain.   So I guess I'd stick with slams.  If we want to differentiate them, I could see claws instead with lowish damage and possibly imp grab.
> 
> I still think we need to reduce domination to a charm effect.




Well following the AD&D version would give it a bite attack, since original stats has a quite unambiguous "1 bite or 1 weapon" listed under Number of Attacks.

So, I'm starting to think bite _*or*_ weapon as a standard attack, bite _*and*_ weapon as a full attack.

As for the enchanting gaze, I'd just give it a Vampire Spawn's Domination. It says it's the same as a vampire's power, so I see little reason not to take them at their word.


----------



## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

Following Shade's quote, I agree that the need dominate!

Ah, but the bite drains hp/round, which is much more like a vamp's blood drain than a normal bite attack, and the victim is supposed to be charmed/dominated first.  Maybe someone can post if 1e vamps had bites or not?  That would convince me one way or the other.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 18, 2009)

1e vamps definitely did not have bites.


----------



## Shade (Nov 18, 2009)

Nor does the 2e Monstrous Manual version.

I'd say that's enough ammo to give 'em a natural bite attack.   We could still require grappling to drain blood if that's the preference. (Simulating a quick chomp vs. holding on and sucking blood).


----------



## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

Ok, let's give them a bite!  I'd favor grappling to drain blood, though, or we're even beyond the speed of the greater vampires we did a while back!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 19, 2009)

Agreed to bite plus grapple in order to drink blood.


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2009)

OK, so bite and manufactured weapon on attack lines?   Suggested weapon?  Maybe unarmed strikes as well?

This might be one of those rare cases where we can give a monster Improved Grapple other than as a bonus feat.


----------



## freyar (Nov 19, 2009)

Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat with Improved Grapple as a normal feat appeals to me.


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Why IUS as bonus feat?  It has no prereqs, so it should qualify.

How about Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, and either Stunning Fist or Deflect Arrows for its third feat?

The stunning would be an effective hunting technique combined with blood drain.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> Ah, but the bite drains hp/round, which is much more like a vamp's blood drain than a normal bite attack, and the victim is supposed to be charmed/dominated first.  Maybe someone can post if 1e vamps had bites or not?  That would convince me one way or the other.




If I remember correctly, 1st edition AD&D vampires did not have bite attacks, the Monster Manual specifies they do damage by striking with their hands. Rhere was mention of blood-draining in the 1E MM but no mechanical details, although some latter supplements (e.g. the Ravenloft Von Richten guide) set out rules for it, although that may have been for a variant vampire.

Anyhow, I would like to give them a bite attack with blood-draining a grappled foe, plus either Improved Grab or the Improved Grapple feat, together with "weapon plus bite" when Full-Attacking.


----------



## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

I think we're agreed on a regular bite with blood drain during a grapple.

I had thought of IUS as a bonus feat just so to give them all something, but Shade's suggested feat list is ok.  Then some of them can just use normal weapons if they like, sure.


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 6 at 9 ranks
Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot?

Advancement: x



> Additionally, taking the skin of a tyerkow and burning it dooms the monster, for it will disintegrate forever at dawn.




Does this work?

Fast Healing (Ex): A tyerkow heals 2 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it appears to deflate into nothing but its skin, at which point it is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 2 hit points per round.


----------



## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Then we should just add a "tyerkow weaknesses" section that burning the skin (maybe dealing X hp of fire damage to it) destroys the tyerkow.


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 4?  Although they have more HD, they lack the energy drain ability of vampire spawn.

Advancement: 7-12 HD (Medium); 13-18 HD (Large)?


----------



## freyar (Nov 21, 2009)

We need to take off the weakness about exposure to sunlight, since the original text explicitly mentions that they are ok in daylight.  Maybe we should even go so far as to say that they differ from vampires in this regard.

CR 4 and proposed advancement are good.  

Should we mention that these are sometimes created instead of vampire spawn?  I think we had something similar for lesser vampires.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Skills: 6 at 9 ranks
> Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot?




Looks good to me.



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




I'd be tempted to give them advancement by character class, otherwise 6-15 HD (Medium)




Shade said:


> Does this work?
> 
> Fast Healing (Ex): A tyerkow heals 2 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it appears to deflate into nothing but its skin, at which point it is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 2 hit points per round.




I think the original monster probably put on their "human skin" during daytime, which allowed them to survive exposure to sunlight at the cost of some or all of their magical powers (e.g. they appear to be perfectly regular folk at day, but at night they can remove their skin to become Blood Sucking Fiend From Hell).

Thus, I'd go for something like:*Fast Healing (Ex):* A tyerkow heals 2 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point, its fast healing does not function in sunlight when it is not wearing a Human Skin (see below). If reduced to 0 hit points in combat it falls to the floor, at which point it is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 2 hit points per round. To permanently destroy a tyerkow it must be exposed to sunlight while not wearing its Human Skin, or its body must be burnt to ashes.

*Human Skin (Ex):* A tyerkow can take on the guise of a living humanoid by putting on a skin. The tyerkow then appears just as it did when alive. When wearing Human Skin a tyerkow is not harmed by sunlight, but it loses the use of its (Domination and Spider Climb?) powers. There are rumours some tyerkow can strip the skin off their victims and assume their appearance.
​


----------



## Cleon (Nov 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: 4?  Although they have more HD, they lack the energy drain ability of vampire spawn.




I'd make them Challenge Rating 3, the lack of Energy Drain  makes them significantly weaker in combat, and not having Gaseous Form makes them much easier to dispose of once reduced to 0 hit points.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 7-12 HD (Medium); 13-18 HD (Large)?




Don't like the idea of them advancing to Large. Isn't the point of these things that they often masquerade as mundane living citydwellers, that'd be a bit hard if you're twice as tall as your neighbours!


----------



## freyar (Nov 22, 2009)

Hmm, I had kind of liked Shade's variation, but I like what Cleon has for the skin!  I don't think it needs to lose any powers while wearing a skin, though.

I think the greater # of hp makes up for the lack of energy drain.  Also, I don't think CR necessarily has to do with their final disposal, just being able to "defeat" them.

The Large ones are tyerkow ogres and hill giants, clearly!


----------



## Cleon (Nov 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I had kind of liked Shade's variation, but I like what Cleon has for the skin!  I don't think it needs to lose any powers while wearing a skin, though.




Well I feel there needs to be some advantage to not wearing a skin, else they'd almost never take it off. Maybe destroying their skin is the easy way to kill them, so they remove it for safety. Or their skinless form is unrecognizable as their skin form, so they are able to persecute the locals without being identified and hunted down during the day?



freyar said:


> I think the greater # of hp makes up for the lack of energy drain.  Also, I don't think CR necessarily has to do with their final disposal, just being able to "defeat" them.




Going from 4 HD to 5HD doesn't increase their BAB or saves, and 6 more hit points isn't that big a deal in 3E. Energy Drain is still very nasty, though, so I still think CR3 is more fitting.



freyar said:


> The Large ones are tyerkow ogres and hill giants, clearly!




Oh of course, ogres wouldn't attract any suspicion in a typical D&D village, they'd fit right in.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Don't like the idea of them advancing to Large. Isn't the point of these things that they often masquerade as mundane living citydwellers, that'd be a bit hard if you're twice as tall as your neighbours!






freyar said:


> The Large ones are tyerkow ogres and hill giants, clearly!






Cleon said:


> Oh of course, ogres wouldn't attract any suspicion in a typical D&D village, they'd fit right in.




They'd fit right into an ogre (or giant, etc.) village, though.  Let's keep the Large version for that reason.

I like the idea of the "skinwalking", as the original picture does show it running around without its skin.   However, I think we need to retain the burning the skin destruction rather than your suggestion of destroying it while not wearing its skin.   I also agree with freyar that it shouldn't lose powers while wearing the skin.



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Well I feel there needs to be some advantage to not wearing a skin, else they'd almost never take it off. Maybe destroying their skin is the easy way to kill them, so they remove it for safety. Or their skinless form is unrecognizable as their skin form, so they are able to persecute the locals without being identified and hunted down during the day?




These suggestions sound reasonable, and the former sounds the closest to the original writeup.


----------



## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

How about this?

Fast Healing (Ex): A tyerkow heals 2 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point, its fast healing does not function in sunlight when it is not wearing a Human Skin (see below). If reduced to 0 hit points in combat it falls to the floor, at which point it is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 2 hit points per round. 

Human Skin (Ex): A tyerkow can take on the guise of a living humanoid by putting on a skin. The tyerkow then appears just as it did when alive. When wearing Human Skin a tyerkow is not harmed by sunlight.  There are rumours some tyerkow can strip the skin off their victims and assume their appearance.

Under weaknesses:

Leave in the bit about sunlight, but add a sentence "A tyerkow wearing its Human Skin is, however, not harmed by sunlight (see above)."  Then add "Separating the Human Skin from a tyerkow and burning the skin (doing X hp of fire damage to it) destroys the tyerkow utterly."  Not sure if we need the bit about water or not.


----------



## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Lookin' good.   +10 bonus on Disguise checks when wearing a human skin?

Oh, and one quibble.  Let's make it "humanoid skin", or better yet, "skin of the living"...humanocentric is _soooo_ 1e.  

The running water weakness should remain, as it was mentioned in the original writeup.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 24, 2009)

freyar said:


> How about this?
> 
> Fast Healing (Ex): A tyerkow heals 2 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point, its fast healing does not function in sunlight when it is not wearing a Human Skin (see below). If reduced to 0 hit points in combat it falls to the floor, at which point it is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 2 hit points per round.
> 
> ...




Looks worthwhile to me, although I'm thinking you should be able to burn a tyerkow to destruction while it is wearing its skin as well as without. Also, I'd quite like to keep the "destroyed at dawn" bit. Maybe something like.
A tyerkow wearing a Human Skin can be destroyed by burning it to ashes (reducing it to -10 or fewer hit points via fire damage). If a tyerkow's human skin is burnt while the monster is not wearing it (this requires 5 or more points of fire damage), the tyerkow will be forever destroyed at the next dawn.​


----------



## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Updated.

Better?

Thoughts on the +10 bonus on Disguise checks when wearing skin of the living?


----------



## freyar (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm happy with it, and I like the higher amount of fire damage to burn the skin.

Maybe +10 to Disguise from the skin to impersonate a living humanoid (not anyone specific)?


----------



## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Updated.

Complete?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2009)

We might want to talk about how it gets a skin. Does it actually kill someone and steal their skin? Can they replace a skin that's lost or destroyed?


----------



## freyar (Nov 25, 2009)

Good idea.  I don't think they can replace a burnt skin, as they then die at the next sunrise (well, maybe they can move fast). 

Ok, let's add the following to skin of the living:
A tyerkow acquires its skin by murdering a humanoid or giant of appropriate size and stripping off the skin (using a weapon or sometimes its teeth).  A tyerkow may have only a single skin of the living at a time.

And to the weaknesses, just after talking about burning the skin and destruction of the monster:
The tyerkow only avoids this fate if it murders and steals the skin from a new victim before sunrise.


----------



## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

Good ideas!

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Nov 25, 2009)

Hopefully done now.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> Good ideas!
> 
> Updated.




Looks good, I'd suggest a few of minor additions.

Firstly, the combat tactics should mention its dominating gaze, something like:Tyerkow attempt to grapple living prey in order to suck blood, often after using their domination special attack or Stunning Fist feat to subdue their victim.​Secondly, I'm wondering about adding Monstrous Humanoid to their Skin of the Living power, but wouldn't be heart-broken if you didn't.

Thirdly, since Skin of the Living is such an important ability for them, maybe we should transfer a few skill points into Disguise, and/or let them "take 10" in the skill? At the moment its Bluff and Sense Motive bonuses are better than its Skin of the Living Disguise bonus, which doesn't seem quite right.

Perhaps swap a couple of points out from each, for Bluff and Sense Motive +13, Disguise +6 (+8 acting, +18 skin of the living) ?


----------



## freyar (Nov 26, 2009)

Skill suggestions sound good to me!


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2009)

Agreed, updated, moving on...

*Well Spirit*
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
NO. APPEARING: 1 
ARMOR CLASS: 0 
MOVE: 18”/ /24” 
HIT DICE: 6-13 
% IN LAIR: 100% 
TREASURE TYPE: See below 
NO. OF ATTACKS: See below 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Drowning
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
INTELLIGENCE: Godlike
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (15’-30’ long, 3’-6’ diameter)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Well Spirits are super-intelligent creatures from the Elemental Plane of Water. During the middle stages of their lives, they often come to the Prime Material Plane. On the Elemental Plane of Water, they can be found in various locations and numbers, but on the Prime Material Plane they can only be found singly in wishing wells.

Well Spirits begin their lives on the Elemental Plane of Water. At the age of 250-300 years, they come to the Prime Material Plane as 6+2 hit dice creatures and make their lairs in wells. When they gain treasure equal to 5,000 gold pieces per hit die, they grow in strength, gaining a hit die, and possibly a hit point plus as well. For example, when a Well Spirit with 8 + 2 hit dice gains 40,000 gp, it becomes a Spirit with 9 + 3 hit dice. The treasure is consumed in the process, so a Well Spirit will always have less than 5,000 gp per hit dice. When a Well Spirit with 13 + 4 hit dice gains 65,000 gp, it teleports to the Elemental Plane of Water as a full adult.

Well Spirits attack by hitting opponents with their pseudopods (much like being hit by an immense wave). On any roll of 19 or 20, the Well Spirit begins to “drown” its opponent. A person being drowned can survive for 2-5 melee rounds plus one half of his/her hit die adjustment due to Constitution (This would be a penalty for victims with Constitutions below 7.). Each round, the victim may attempt to save vs. dragon breath at -2 for each round he or she has been drowning. If at any time the adventurer makes his or her saving throw, he or she has broken free and may fight in the next round. However, for the next 3-6 melee rounds, the victim will fight at -3 on his or her “to hit” dice rolls. A person may not fight while being drowned.

The Well Spirit’s special defense is that normal weapons do only half damage, magical weapons do half or full damage (full damage if the attacker makes his saving throw vs. spell at +1 for each “+” of weapon), and electrical attacks do no damage. Fire-based or fire-using attacks do double damage and may reduce the Spirit’s hit dice because of evaporation, thus reducing its attacks, etc. Divide the total hit points by hit dice and round up to find hit points per die. Whenever the Well Spirit loses this many hit points from a fire-based attack, it will lose 1 hit die as far as attacks, damage, etc. are concerned. If a Well Spirit has 6 + 2 hit dice, it cannot lose any more hit dice. When a Well Spirit is attacked by a cold-based attack, it takes 11/2 damage, or double subduing damage (qv). Well Spirits can be subdued, but subduing attacks do only 3/4 of the damage that would otherwise be inflicted. Two exceptions are cold-based attacks, which do double damage when subduing, and fire-based attacks, which cannot subdue. 25% of subduing damage is actual, the rest regenerates at a rate of 2 hp per round. The Well Spirit is subdued when it has lost all of its hit points as a result of subduing damage, or a combination of actual and subduing damage. A subdued Well Spirit will grant wishes. A subdued Well Spirit will remain subdued for 7 - 10 (d4 + 6) days after its subdual. After this time it will only stay with an adventurer if it is given at least 1,000 gp per hit dice of the Spirit, and a well to inhabit. The well must be at least 4 feet in diameter and 50 feet deep. The walls must be lined with stone, and the water must be reasonably clean.

Since Well Spirits inhabit wishing wells, they can grant from 1 to 3 Wishes to a party, the number depending on the size of the Spirit. Wishes may be granted either after subdual or after a sizable gift of treasure (at least 1,000 gp per hit die of the Spirit) has been given to the Spirit.

Well Spirits are predominantly Neutral. However, 10% are of a random alignment. Well Spirits of Good alignment will not willingly grant an evil wish, although they will do so if subdued. Regardless of alignment,, a Well Spirit may attack someone it considers too greedy (i.e., someone who gives the Well Spirit too little treasure or tries to get too many wishes).

Description: A Well Spirit appears similar to a Water Elemental.

Hit Dice / Wishes /Attacks / Damage
6 + 2 / 1 / 2 / 1-10
7 + 2 / 1 / 2 / 1-10
8 + 2 / 1 / 2 / 1-10
9 + 3 / 1 / 3 / 2-16
10 + 3 / 2 / 3 / 2-16
11 + 3 / 2 / 3 / 2-16
12 + 4 / 3 / 4 / 3-24
13 + 4 / 3 / 5 / 4-32

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #42 (1980).


----------



## freyar (Nov 30, 2009)

First question: do we want to start at 6HD and do advancement based on "treasure consumption" along the lines of a barghest?  Or just start at 13 HD to befit their godlike Int?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2009)

I like the treasure consumption thing. We could do a 6 HD and a 13 HD version, akin to barghest/greater barghest dichotomy. Give only the greater ones the wishes.


----------



## RavinRay (Dec 1, 2009)

A lesser and greater water spirit split sounds good. It reminds me of the djinni/noble djinni dichotomy with only the latter granting _wishes_ as well. And with its guardianship of wells godlike Int it begs for adaptation into _Oriental Adventures_ as an elemental with the spirit subtype. I wonder if it has any relationship with water weirds?


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> A lesser and greater water spirit split sounds good. It reminds me of the djinni/noble djinni dichotomy with only the latter granting _wishes_ as well. And with its guardianship of wells godlike Int it begs for adaptation into _Oriental Adventures_ as an elemental with the spirit subtype. I wonder if it has any relationship with water weirds?




Agreed to all that.

Water weirds are Large, have 15 HD, and ability scores of Str 21, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 20, Wis 23, Cha 22.   We could use that as a starting point for the greater well spirit's scores.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Agreed, updated, moving on...




Looks good, except a typo got introduced into Skin of the Living. The line "A tyerkow can take on the guise of a living , monstrous humanoid" has lost the humanoid before the comma.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> A lesser and greater water spirit split sounds good. It reminds me of the djinni/noble djinni dichotomy with only the latter granting _wishes_ as well. And with its guardianship of wells godlike Int it begs for adaptation into _Oriental Adventures_ as an elemental with the spirit subtype. I wonder if it has any relationship with water weirds?




Well Water Weirds had were 3+3 HD and Very-intelligent in AD&D, which might suggest they're a larval form of a Well Spirit. However, the Weirds are also Chaotic Evil which may argue against a close kinship, unless only CE Well Spirits are callous enough to abandon their spawn on the Prime Material plane....

I like the Lesser / Greater Well Spirit split, with the latter being able to grant wishes.

As for the Feeding on treasure, I was thinking of something like when a Well Spirit amasses treasure equal to (CR+X) it devours it all and gains a Hit Dice, so it will never have more than (CR+X-1).



Shade said:


> Agreed to all that.
> 
> Water weirds are Large, have 15 HD, and ability scores of Str 21, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 20, Wis 23, Cha 22. We could use that as a starting point for the greater well spirit's scores.




Those ability scores look fine to me. The mental stats are appropriate to an AD&D "Godlike" (20+) intelligence, and the physical stats are pretty close to a Large Water Elemental's Str 20, Dex 14, Con 19.

I'm presuming a Greater Well Spirit will be Huge size, with commensurate ability increases. Incidentally, going by the originals Damage progression (6-8HD 1d10, 9-11HD 2d8, 12HD 3d8, 13HD 4d8) it rather suggests these creatures normally Advance something like:

6 HD - Lesser Well Spirit
9 HD - gains Improved Natural Attack (pseudopod) feat?
12 HD - increases in size to Huge?
13 HD - Greater Well Spirit

*Should they have the Native subtype?*

I guess not as they hail from the Plane of Water, although we could give them some ability to resist banishment when in their wells.

*So, are we going Elemental or Outsider?*

I'm having trouble deciding. It'd help if we had some indication what these things actually look like. Are they amorphous blobs or water (which would suggest Elemental), or do they have an anatomy like a Xorn or Salamander? We've been comparing them to Barghests and Genies, which suggests Outsider (Extraplanar, Water).


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2009)

Here's the pic:


----------



## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

I like these ideas.

Unfortunately, that pic doesn't help me with the type.  I'm kind of leaning toward outsider, though the connection to weirds argues for elemental.  I think that thematic connection is a bit stronger than the mechanical ones to barghests and genies, but I could go either way.


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2009)

I'm more firmly in the elemental camp.


----------



## RavinRay (Dec 2, 2009)

Now that I think of it, in 3.5e elementals run the gamut of abilities from very weak (elementite swarm) to strong (elemental monoliths) to god-like (archomentals). So an extremely intelligent elemental that grants wishes isn't really out of place. And the elemental weirds also look like feminine humanoids.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 2, 2009)

That picture doesn't really swing it either way. I have a slight leaning towards Outsider, but I'm not terribly fussed either way.


----------



## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

Err, I guess we should see if demiurge shows up with an opinion.  But I am tilting back toward elemental due to the weirds.


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

Let's try 'em as elementals and see where that takes us.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 6, 2009)

I like 'em as elementals.


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> Well Spirits attack by hitting opponents with their pseudopods (much like being hit by an immense wave). On any roll of 19 or 20, the Well Spirit begins to “drown” its opponent. A person being drowned can survive for 2-5 melee rounds plus one half of his/her hit die adjustment due to Constitution (This would be a penalty for victims with Constitutions below 7.). Each round, the victim may attempt to save vs. dragon breath at -2 for each round he or she has been drowning. If at any time the adventurer makes his or her saving throw, he or she has broken free and may fight in the next round. However, for the next 3-6 melee rounds, the victim will fight at -3 on his or her “to hit” dice rolls. A person may not fight while being drowned.




I gave 'em slam attacks equivalent to a Huge water elemental.  We'll need to figure out our "drown" attack.



> The Well Spirit’s special defense is that normal weapons do only half damage, magical weapons do half or full damage (full damage if the attacker makes his saving throw vs. spell at +1 for each “+” of weapon), and electrical attacks do no damage.




Stick with the usual DR 5/- of water elementals?



> Fire-based or fire-using attacks do double damage and may reduce the Spirit’s hit dice because of evaporation, thus reducing its attacks, etc. Divide the total hit points by hit dice and round up to find hit points per die. Whenever the Well Spirit loses this many hit points from a fire-based attack, it will lose 1 hit die as far as attacks, damage, etc. are concerned. If a Well Spirit has 6 + 2 hit dice, it cannot lose any more hit dice.




Fire attacks cause negative levels at some damage threshold?



> When a Well Spirit is attacked by a cold-based attack, it takes 1 1/2 damage, or double subduing damage (qv). Well Spirits can be subdued, but subduing attacks do only 3/4 of the damage that would otherwise be inflicted. Two exceptions are cold-based attacks, which do double damage when subduing, and fire-based attacks, which cannot subdue. 25% of subduing damage is actual, the rest regenerates at a rate of 2 hp per round. The Well Spirit is subdued when it has lost all of its hit points as a result of subduing damage, or a combination of actual and subduing damage. A subdued Well Spirit will grant wishes. A subdued Well Spirit will remain subdued for 7 - 10 (d4 + 6) days after its subdual. After this time it will only stay with an adventurer if it is given at least 1,000 gp per hit dice of the Spirit, and a well to inhabit. The well must be at least 4 feet in diameter and 50 feet deep. The walls must be lined with stone, and the water must be reasonably clean.




Should we simplify this to regeneration overcome by cold?


----------



## freyar (Dec 7, 2009)

Slams sound good.  Drown sounds like an imp grab followed by engulf, never mind the critical-like mechanic.

I think DR 5/- is ok.  Immunity to electricity, also.

Negative levels sound right, but I don't know if I like a damage threshhold.  I'd say on a critical, but that doesn't work so well for energy attacks (not to mention that elementals are immune to crits).  To be honest, the flavor would go just as well with vulnerability.

The problem with regen bypassed by cold is that would seem to negate the whole fire bit above.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 8, 2009)

freyar said:


> Slams sound good.  Drown sounds like an imp grab followed by engulf, never mind the critical-like mechanic.




I was thinking of a critical-like mechanic, imagining it forced some "living water" into the target's lungs rather than pulled them into its body à la an Engulf attack. Something like if it scores a critical the target must make a Fort save or immediately begin drowning, but gets a new save at each stage to shake off the effect (e.g. save vs stunned and drowning on round 1, save vs unconscious on round 2, save vs dying on round 3, savs vs dead on round 4), and if they throw if off they are shaken for 3-6 rounds.



freyar said:


> I think DR 5/- is ok.  Immunity to electricity, also.




I have no objection to that.



freyar said:


> Negative levels sound right, but I don't know if I like a damage threshhold.  I'd say on a critical, but that doesn't work so well for energy attacks (not to mention that elementals are immune to crits).  To be honest, the flavor would go just as well with vulnerability.




How about if it fails its save against a fire attack, it must make a Will save at the same DC or gain a negative level? Actually, since fire can not drop it below 6 HD, maybe the HD it gains from "Treasure-Eating" are only temporary, and can be stripped off by fire damage?


----------



## freyar (Dec 8, 2009)

I think I'd just use regular suffocation/drowning rules, perhaps starting to make Con checks immediately.  They can escape with grapple checks or when the well spirit dies, right?

Still thinking about the negative levels...


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Actually, since fire can not drop it below 6 HD, maybe the HD it gains from "Treasure-Eating" are only temporary, and can be stripped off by fire damage?




That may be a better approach.  



freyar said:


> I think I'd just use regular suffocation/drowning rules, perhaps starting to make Con checks immediately.  They can escape with grapple checks or when the well spirit dies, right?




Agreed.

Here are other drown mechanics...

Drown: The first victim hit by an aballin's pseudopods must make an opposed grapple check with the aballin (the monster's bonus on this check is +11). If the aballin wins this check, it draws the victim into its fluid body. The victim is at risk of drowning (see Water Dangers in the DMG for the risks and effects of drowning). Because the aballin is composed of acid, not water, spells such as water breathing offer no help in surviving the effect of drowning in their fluids.

A trapped victim can attack the aballin or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. If other characters use edged weapons to attack the aballin while it is holding a victim, those attacks have a 25% chance of hitting the trapped character, and they do no harm to the aballin.

While holding a victim, the aballin continues to attack with its pseudopods, dealing slam damage to other characters.

Drowning Aura (Su): A drowned gives off a 30-foot radius emanation of suffocating drowning, imbuing its surroundings with a watery glint and deadly threat for creatures that breathe. All breathing creatures within 30 feet of a drowned are treated as if beneath water in terms of being able to breathe. The drowning aura accelerates teh process of drowning.


The wave moment could also work like a multi-target bull rush.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2009)

I think we should give them regen overcome by both fire and cold.


----------



## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

I think something like the aballin would work, without the acid part.

And demiurge's suggestion of regen captures the spirit of the original without being too complicated.  But I'm trying to figure out what I prefer still.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 9, 2009)

freyar said:


> I think something like the aballin would work, without the acid part.




Yes, that's more or less what I imagined when you first proposes a grab & engulf approach. I certainly the Aballin version matches the Well Spirit's _modus operandi_ better than the Drowning Aura version.

The problem with using standard drowning/suffocating rules is an average PC would only risk drowning after being held by the Well Spirit for a few minutes, and most combats only last a few rounds.

How about having the target make a Fort save each round to continue holding their breath rather than the standard "Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score", and start drowning if they fail?

And demiurge's suggestion of regen captures the spirit of the original without being too complicated.  But I'm trying to figure out what I prefer still.[/quote]

I hesitate to bring this up, but the original Well Spirit's "regeneration" is only for recovery from the non-lasting effects of subdual damage (i.e. nonlethal damage in 3E terms).

I'd be tempted to just forget about it, or give it Fast Healing that does not apply to fire damage. I wouldn't interpret it as being equal to regeneration, since the original Well Spirit does not reform from "fatal" damage.

As for its susceptibility to cold, how about giving it vulnerability to cold (+50% damage) but add that cold attacks only do nonlethal damage to Well Spirits?

Oh, and they should have vulnerability to fire, obviously.


----------



## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

On the drowning, a Fort save or Con check every round to hold breath is ok.  Upthread, I suggested following the usual drowning rules but starting the Con checks immediately.


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

I think simplifying to regen overcome by cold and fire, as well as vulnerability to fire, is the simplest, most elegant solution.

Here's an attempt at modifying the aballin's ability to fit this creature...

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a well spirit must hit with a slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to drown its victim.

Drown (Su): With a successful grapple check, a well spirit draws the victim into its fluid body. The victim is at risk of drowning (see Water Dangers in the DMG for the risks and effects of drowning).  A well spirit is not considered grappled while drowning a victim.

A trapped victim can attack the well spirit or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. A trapped victim may hold its breath, but must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save each round to continue holding its breath.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## freyar (Dec 10, 2009)

That looks pretty good.  Should the Fort DC increase each round, like the Con checks do normally?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

Increasing the DC of the Fort saves might be too mean--what's the baseline Con DC for these guys?


----------



## Shade (Dec 11, 2009)

Dc 19.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> Drown (Su): With a successful grapple check, a well spirit draws the victim into its fluid body. The victim is at risk of drowning (see Water Dangers in the DMG for the risks and effects of drowning).  A well spirit is not considered grappled while drowning a victim.
> 
> A trapped victim can attack the well spirit or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. A trapped victim may hold its breath, but must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save each round to continue holding its breath.  The save DC is Constitution-based.




That's pretty much what I was thinking of.

I did wonder about making it Strength-based (DC21) rather than Constitution-based, but that would give Gargantuan Well Spirits a bigger boost on the DC so I think Con works better.

Should we add some kind of size limits to how many creatures the spirit can hold? Something like the following (I've moved all the drowning saves into the first paragraph):*Drown (Su):* A well spirit can draw a held opponent into its fluid body with a successful grapple check. Victims trapped inside the well spirit must succeed on a DC19 Fortitude save each round or drown (see Water Dangers in the DMG for the effects of drowning) unless they can breath water. A well spirit is not considered grappled while drowning a victim. A Huge-sized well spirit can drown a single victim of Huge or larger size, or up to 4 Large, 16 Medium, 64 Small or 256 Diminutive smaller creatures.

A trapped victim can attack the well spirit or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. The save DC is Constitution-based.​


----------



## freyar (Dec 11, 2009)

Size limits are ok with me, though I think it can only start with a Large critter since Imp Grab requires a size category smaller by default (unless we want to change it).


----------



## Cleon (Dec 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> Size limits are ok with me, though I think it can only start with a Large critter since Imp Grab requires a size category smaller by default (unless we want to change it).




Good point, we can cut out the sizes above Large:*Drown (Su):* A well spirit can draw a held opponent into its fluid body with a successful grapple check. Victims trapped inside the well spirit must succeed on a DC19 Fortitude save each round or drown (see Water Dangers in the DMG for the effects of drowning) unless they can breath water. A well spirit is not considered grappled while drowning a victim. A Huge-sized well spirit can drown up to 4 Large, 16 Medium, 64 Small or 256 Diminutive smaller creatures simultaneously.

A trapped victim can attack the well spirit or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. The save DC is Constitution-based.​


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2009)

Looks good to me!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2009)

That seems like a lot of Large targets. I'd say 1 large, 4 Medium, etc.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 13, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> That seems like a lot of Large targets. I'd say 1 large, 4 Medium, etc.




I'd rather 2 Large, 8 Medium et cetera as per the standard Swallow Whole progression.


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

So 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small or 128 Diminutive smaller creatures ?


----------



## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

That's fine, though I don't know if there is a standard or not.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> That's fine, though I don't know if there is a standard or not.




I don't believe there's an official rule, but I can't think of any Wizards-published monsters with Swallow Whole that don't use a 2/8/32... progression.


----------



## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Usually at 2 size categories below, though.  Interesting anyway; I could have sworn there was some critter that started with 1.


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> Usually at 2 size categories below, though.  Interesting anyway; I could have sworn there was some critter that started with 1.




Yeah, I'm fairly sure those exist as well, but can't find any with a quick search.

Anyway, Updated.


----------



## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Ok, can anyone remember any new special abilities we need to add?


----------



## Shade (Dec 16, 2009)

We seem to have covered everything in the original text save for the treasure consumption/growth.


----------



## freyar (Dec 16, 2009)

What we have so far in the homebrews is just the greater version, so I don't think we need growth until we do the lesser ones.  I assume, like the barghest, the greater version shouldn't advance.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 16, 2009)

freyar said:


> Usually at 2 size categories below, though.  Interesting anyway; I could have sworn there was some critter that started with 1.




Tendriculos, if I remember correctly...

...Yup, *according to d20srd.org* my memory did not fail me "A Huge tendriculos’s interior can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents."


----------



## Cleon (Dec 16, 2009)

freyar said:


> What we have so far in the homebrews is just the greater version, so I don't think we need growth until we do the lesser ones.  I assume, like the barghest, the greater version shouldn't advance.




That sounds right to me, so shall we go on to skills and feats?

They can have seven skills at max - Diplomacy, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive and Knowledge (Arcana, Geography, Nature, The Planes) all seem tempting. That's eight skills though.

Max out Diplomacy, Listen, Spot & Sense Motive and split the remainder between the four Knowledge skills, or just cut out one of the Knowledge skills?

I think I'd just cut Knowledge (geography), to leave it the following skill ranks:*Skills:* Diplomacy *16*, Knowledge (arcana) *16*, Knowledge (nature) *16*, Knowledge (the planes) *16*, Listen *16*, Sense Motive *16* , Spot *16*​Does that look alright?


----------



## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Those skills seem fine to me!


----------



## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Looks good!

Updated.

Feats: 5

Water weirds have Alertness, Dodge (B), Empower Spell, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Maximize Spell

Water elementals have Alertness, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack

So maybe Improved Critical (slam), Improved Bull Rush, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack?


----------



## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

I like that list pretty well!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2009)

That looks like a good list of feats.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> So maybe Improved Critical (slam), Improved Bull Rush, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack?




That work for me. The only alternative I could think of was Improved Initiative instead of Improved Bull Rush, but I like the proposed feats just as much.


----------



## Shade (Dec 21, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: x

Advancement: x

Greater well spirits speak Aquan and x.


----------



## freyar (Dec 21, 2009)

Solitary, CR 8 or 9?, Standard treasure (any more, and they use it to power their trip to Elemental Water).  

Advancement: probably - , but we could do treasure consumption for these too.  Then we can have them turn into "adults" when shifting to the elemental planes.

Common and Draconic?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

CR 9 seems appropriate. Agreed to standard treasure.


----------



## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

Updated.

So treasure consumption to increase HD, advancement 14-26 HD (Huge)?


----------



## freyar (Dec 22, 2009)

For advancement, I think we were going to stick to -, like the greater barghest.  The original text says that a 13HD well spirit that accumulates 65000 gp teleports to elemental water "as a full adult."  Presumably it's some sort of rite of passage.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Solitary, CR 8 or 9?, Standard treasure (any more, and they use it to power their trip to Elemental Water).




There a good deal stronger in a fight than an efreet or noble djinn, but lack the latter's spell-like abilities (except for _wish_ granting) and can't fly, which is a very handy power, so I'm leaning towards Challenge Rating 8, although I have no objection to 9 if you prefer.



freyar said:


> Advancement: probably - , but we could do treasure consumption for these too.  Then we can have them turn into "adults" when shifting to the elemental planes.




I'd prefer regular Hit Dice advancement and leave the treasure consumption to the Lesser Well Spirits. The 7HD Djinni has a 8-10 HD (Large); 11-21 HD (Huge) advancement, the 10 HD Efreet a 11-15 HD (Large); 16-30 HD (Huge) which suggests 100-150% HD (size) and 150-300% HD (size+1) is the scheme to go for, which would be:

Advancement: Huge 14-19 HD (Huge); 20-39 HD (Gargantuan)



freyar said:


> Common and Draconic?




I was thinking Common and Aquan, and maybe Auran so they can chat with Djinn.

But come to think of it, the Int 14 Djinn speak 4 languages (Auran, Celestial, Common, and Ignan) as does the Int 12 Efreet (Auran, Common, Ignan, and Infernal). Well Spirits have super-genius intelligence (Int 20), so I'm tempted to give them *all* the elemental and outer-plane languages, plus draconic and common.

Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Ignan, Infernal, Terran

We can cut out some if you think nine languages is too much - my first choice for removal would be Abyssal, followed by Draconic.


----------



## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

Auran was always a given...we were just listing additional languages.   I think I prefer Common, Draconic, and the four elemental languages only.

Cleon's advancement appeals.  That would explain the ones that have returned to the Elemental Plane of Water and lived there for some time.

Updated.

Ready to work on the lesser?


----------



## freyar (Dec 22, 2009)

That's fine for me.  Ready for the lesser one!


----------



## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

> Well Spirits begin their lives on the Elemental Plane of Water. At the age of 250-300 years, they come to the Prime Material Plane as 6+2 hit dice creatures and make their lairs in wells. When they gain treasure equal to 5,000 gold pieces per hit die, they grow in strength, gaining a hit die, and possibly a hit point plus as well. For example, when a Well Spirit with 8 + 2 hit dice gains 40,000 gp, it becomes a Spirit with 9 + 3 hit dice. The treasure is consumed in the process, so a Well Spirit will always have less than 5,000 gp per hit dice. When a Well Spirit with 13 + 4 hit dice gains 65,000 gp, it teleports to the Elemental Plane of Water as a full adult.




So drop to 6 HD and Large, making the necessary adjustments?

Rather than drop them to less wishes, how about limited wish instead to keep them better balanced?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

I like the idea of limited wish. A lot.


----------



## Shade (Dec 23, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I didn't follow the usual size adjustments, instead maintaining the ratio of a greater's stats compared to a water elemental of similar size.  

Do we want to lower the mental stats a bit?

We'll need to drop one of its feats (I already dropped Improved Critical since its BAB is too low for the prereq).

Should speed be lower (like smaller water elementals)?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Auran was always a given...we were just listing additional languages.   I think I prefer Common, Draconic, and the four elemental languages only.
> 
> Cleon's advancement appeals.  That would explain the ones that have returned to the Elemental Plane of Water and lived there for some time.
> 
> ...




That suits me. I'll just run an eye over the stats to check they're alright before calling it a day for the Greater Well Spirit...

Hmm, the +15 melee with their slams does not match up with their stats as written. With +9 BAB from 13 Elemental HD, a +5 Strength bonus from Str 21 and a -2 size penalty from Huge size they come out at +12 melee.

Also, their slams have 1.5 their Str bonus despite it having two attacks, although that isn't strictly verboten.

If we increased their Strength to 27 the attack bonus would match up, although we'd have to up the Grapple to +25 and the DB to +8 (for standard primary attack) or +12 (for 1.5 Str). I'd prefer +8 damage.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I didn't follow the usual size adjustments, instead maintaining the ratio of a greater's stats compared to a water elemental of similar size.




That looks OK. I agree with the suggested _limited wish_ switch.



Shade said:


> Do we want to lower the mental stats a bit?




Sure, cut two points off each mental stat?



Shade said:


> We'll need to drop one of its feats (I already dropped Improved Critical since its BAB is too low for the prereq).
> 
> Should speed be lower (like smaller water elementals)?




Improved Bull Rush would be my preferred feat to drop, I'd like to keep the speeds the same.


----------



## Shade (Dec 23, 2009)

I fixed the greater well spirit.  I'm not sure where I got those numbers.

I agree with your assessment of mental ability scores and axeing Imroved Bull Rush, but I'll give the others a chance to weigh in.


----------



## freyar (Dec 23, 2009)

I can agree to all that.


----------



## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

Updated.

With the reduced Int score, we'll need to drop one skill.  I'd recommend Knowledge (arcana).  Any objections?


----------



## freyar (Dec 28, 2009)

None here.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 28, 2009)

Of the skills to drop, Know (arcana) seems pretty reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

That's enough for a majority.

Should the "growth by treasure accumulation" be an ability, or simple text in an Advancement underbar?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 29, 2009)

An ability, similar to feed.


----------



## freyar (Dec 29, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> An ability, similar to feed.



Yup.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 29, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> With the reduced Int score, we'll need to drop one skill.  I'd recommend Knowledge (arcana).  Any objections?




I was thinking Knowledge (the planes). Doesn't it only start exploring the planes once its matured into a Greater Well Spirit?

It doesn't bother me much either way, so I won't object if you keep it (arcane).


----------



## Cleon (Dec 29, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> An ability, similar to feed.




I agree.

The only real question is how much treasure  it needs to advance a HD:

- A proportion of the treasure value of its CR (double standard treasure?)

- Treasure with a gp value equal to a proportion of the xp value it would need to gain a level?


----------



## Shade (Dec 29, 2009)

The original text suggested 5,000 gp per current hit die, which seems like it would still work rather well.  Thus, 30,000 to reach 7 HD, 35,000 more to reach 8 HD, and so forth.


----------



## freyar (Dec 29, 2009)

Shade said:


> The original text suggested 5,000 gp per current hit die, which seems like it would still work rather well.  Thus, 30,000 to reach 7 HD, 35,000 more to reach 8 HD, and so forth.



That works well enough for me.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> The original text suggested 5,000 gp per current hit die, which seems like it would still work rather well.  Thus, 30,000 to reach 7 HD, 35,000 more to reach 8 HD, and so forth.




Not so sure about it myself, it seems an awful lot compared to the "Treasure Values per Encounter Table". Bear in mind AD&D creatures often had much more gp value in treasure than 3E ones, since the rules did not favour the purchase of magical items.

Look at how the progression goes Treasure EL-wise.

To reach 7HD requires 30000 gp = ~EL 17 Treasure. [36000gp]
To reach 8HD requires 35000 gp = ~EL 17 Treasure. [36000gp]
To reach 9HD requires 40000 gp = ~EL 18 Treasure. [47000gp]
To reach 10HD requires 45000 gp = ~EL 18 Treasure. [47000gp]
To reach 11HD requires 50000 gp = ~EL 19 Treasure. [61000gp]
To reach 12HD requires 55000 gp = ~EL 19 Treasure. [61000gp]
To reach 13HD requires 60000 gp = ~EL 19 Treasure. [61000gp]

I'd rather go for something like treasure EL = current HD+3, e.g.:

To reach 7HD requires EL 9 Treasure. [4500gp]
 To reach 8HD requires EL 10 Treasure. [5800gp]
 To reach 9HD requires EL 11 Treasure. [7500gp]
 To reach 10HD requires EL 12 Treasure. [9800gp]
 To reach 11HD requires EL 13 Treasure. [13000gp]
 To reach 12HD requires EL 14 Treasure. [17000gp]
 To reach 13HD requires EL 15 Treasure. [22000gp]


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2009)

Cleon's suggestion seems much more reasonable, considering the avaliability of treasure.


----------



## Shade (Dec 31, 2009)

Alright, although I fear that's a bit complicated.

Regardless, here's a stab at the ability...

Consume Treasure (Su):  A well spirit advances in Hit Dice by consuming treasure. The type (coins, goods, or items) makes no difference, only the gold piece value of the treasure.  When a well spirit acquires treasure appropriate for an encounter level equal to its current Hit Dice + 3, it gains 1 Hit Die, and its Strength, Constitution, and natural armor increase by +1. Its attack bonus and saves improve as normal for an elemental of its Hit Dice, and it gains skill points, feats, and ability score improvements normally.

A well spirit that reaches 13 Hit Dice through consuming treasure immediately becomes a greater well spirit upon completion of the act.


I know the original did not actually consume the treasure, but if we let it simply hoard the treasure, their hoards will quickly grow way out of control.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 31, 2009)

Shade said:


> Alright, although I fear that's a bit complicated.
> 
> Regardless, here's a stab at the ability...
> 
> ...




Yes, they should definitely consume the treasure to grow. I don't agree with the increase to abilities and NA, because A) I'd prefer they follow the usual 'abilities go up in steps of 2" rules, and B) a 12 HD lesser well spirit would get Str 23, Con 21 and NA +13 - more than a greater's Str 21, Con 17 and NA +10. I'd rather trim cut the progression to, say +2 Str and +1 NA per 3 Hit Dice, e.g.:
Consume Treasure (Su): A well spirit advances in Hit Dice by consuming treasure. The type (coins, goods, or items) makes no difference, only the gold piece value of the treasure. When a well spirit acquires treasure appropriate for an encounter level equal to its current Hit Dice + 3, it gains 1 Hit Die. For every 3 Hit Dice it advances through consuming treasure the lesser well spirit's Strength increases by +2 and its natural armor increases by +1. Its attack bonus and saves improve as normal for an elemental of its Hit Dice, and it gains skill points, feats, and ability score improvements normally.

A well spirit that reaches 13 Hit Dice through consuming treasure immediately becomes a greater well spirit upon completion of the act.​ That way the lesser well spirit maxes out at 12 HD with the same Strength and Armour Class as a greater well spirit (its NA is one less than a Greater but it's still Large so has a size penalty that's a point lower, so it evens out to the same AC).


----------



## freyar (Jan 2, 2010)

This is fine.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2010)

No arguments here.  That was just a straight copy of the barghest's feed ability.

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Lesser well spirits are x feet tall and weigh up to x pounds.


----------



## freyar (Jan 4, 2010)

I'm going to go with CR 4.  Attack bonus is a bit low, but it has good defense and reasonable damage (esp with drown).  If we want to give extra credit for being able to grant a limited wish, we could go CR 5, but I think that might be pushing it.

10 ft tall and 2000 lb?  For a 6HD one, that is.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

The regeneration, I think, is a pretty good argument in favor of CR 5.


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2010)

Good point.  Despite having less HD, they seem quite a bit better than a Large water elemental.

Updated.   Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm going to go with CR 4. Attack bonus is a bit low, but it has good defense and reasonable damage (esp with drown). If we want to give extra credit for being able to grant a limited wish, we could go CR 5, but I think that might be pushing it.






demiurge1138 said:


> The regeneration, I think, is a pretty good argument in favor of CR 5.




They've got damage reduction 5/- AND regeneration 5. Together I think those merit Challenge Rating 5, since that's a tricky combination for low-level characters, especially as they've got a decent AC so Power Attack will be of little use.



freyar said:


> 10 ft tall and 2000 lb?  For a 6HD one, that is.




That's a little under 1/8th the weight of a Greater Well Spirit but 1/3rd the height. I think half the Greater's height (15 feet) would be more proportional.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good point.  Despite having less HD, they seem quite a bit better than a Large water elemental.
> 
> Updated.   Finished?




It looks finished as far as the stats go.

Although I still prefer Knowledge (arcana) over Knowledge (the planes), since Lesser Well Spirits are juveniles who have not started plane-travelling yet.

I'm not really bothered about changing the height to 15 ft. to cleave closer to the Greater version's height/weight ratio.


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm fine with the increase to 15 feet, but I vastly prefer K (the planes) to (arcana), as these things need to know their origins/destinies.


----------



## freyar (Jan 6, 2010)

I prefer Know (planes) also for similar reasons.  15 ft is ok, and I thought about that as a possibility, too.


----------



## Shade (Jan 6, 2010)

Updated.  I believe we are finished now.  That one took near to forever!

These next ones appear to be an overlooked gem...

*PHOENIX SPIDER*
Created by: K.L. Campbell
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 7 to 1
MOVE: 12. *24.
HIT DICE: 3-10
% IN LAIR: 95%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1 bite
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison, web
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: S-L (1-20' across)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: Variable, as per incarnation

The phoenix spider was created through a mutual effort by the demon queen Lolth and an unknown powerful being from the Elemental Plane of Fire. These creatures now serve both lordlings.

The phoenix spider appears to be a small crimson spider like a black widow, with a black hourglass on the top of the abdomen.  They are vicious and attack anything not spider- or flame-like in nature. They can be killed by normal means and take double damage from cold attacks and temperatures. Fire-based attacks of sufficient power (doing damage greater than or equal to their current hit-point totals) will seem to kill them. However, such attacks actually strengthen these creatures, causingthem to reform in three rounds. If slain by other means, it takes nine rounds for these monsters to reform their essences into a more powerful creature.

Only being killed by cold-based spells prevents these beasts from reforming again.

Form # 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Size 1' 2' 4' 8' 12' 16' 20'
AC 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Hit dice 3 4 5 6 7 8 10
Bite damage 1 1-3 1-4 1-6 1-8 1-10 1-12
Poison damage 4 5 6 10 12 16 20

The poison, which is injected with each bite, kills if a save vs. poison is missed; the damage listed is taken for a successful saving throw. In addition, a phoenix spider is able to fire a strand of webbing across a distance five times as far as the spider’s size (i.e., a phoenix spider in its first form can fire a web only 5’ distant, but a seventh-form spider could fire a web up to 100’). One creature may be the victim of such a web-shot, and must save vs. spells as per the magic-user spell web, or else suffer all the usual effects of the spell itself. Note that the webs of the phoenix spider are not flammable.

If a spider has reached its seventh transformation (20’) and it is slain by fire, it reverses its growth process, shrinking one size lower with each death. Any other method of killing it after its seventh life will permanently kill it.

Phoenix spiders are found in various places in the Abyss, and some have been summoned through special rituals by evil drow and human cults. Because they like hot temperatures, these monsters are extremely rare and almost never found away from the place where they were summoned (which is usually kept warm).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #118 (1987).


----------



## freyar (Jan 6, 2010)

Interesting.  Something like a very rapid rejuvenation plus advancement?  Think there's a way to handle this to make it less tricky?


----------



## Shade (Jan 6, 2010)

Possibly a reverse approach to the walking dead?

Here's the phoenix and phoelarch's similar abilities...

Immolation (Su): When it knows that death is near, a phoenix immolates itself as a full-round action. This produces a cloud of flame in a 20-foot-high, 15-foot-radius spread. Each creature in the area takes 40d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 22 half). Half of this damage is fire; the rest results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to reduction by protection from elements (fire), fire shield (chill shield), or similar magic. This action kills the original phoenix and produces a new one, fully grown and unharmed, from the ashes. This new bird arrives at the end of the round. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Healing Fire (Su): Any fire attack that would normally deal damage instead heals a phoelarch. Any fire effect targeted on a phoelarch heals 1 points of damage for every 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the phoelarch to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a phoelarch exposed to a fireball that deals 30 points of damage would heal up to 10 points of damage, or provide the phoelarch with up to 10 temporary hit points.

Rise From the Ashes (Su): When a phoelarch is slain (reduced to -10 hit points or below), its body is immolated, leaving nothing but ash and a chrysalis form in the shape of a small black egg roughly 6 inches across. The egg remains dormant for 24 hours, after which time it hatches, releasing a fully grown phoera.

The ash and chrysalis left behind when a phoelarch dies can be used to resurrect the phoelarch, but the creature cannot be raised by any means. Once a phoera has burst free from its chrysalis, the phoelarch cannot be brought back to life by any means. A gentle repose spell or similar magic cast on a chrysalis can keep the egg from hatching, allowing the phoelarch to possibly be brought back to life at a later time. Once the gentle repose effect ends, however, the egg hatches 24 hours later.

A wish or miracle spell used in conjunction with a ressurection effect can restore a phoelarch to life after its chrysalis has hatched.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 7, 2010)

Oh man, this is going to be a pain.

Things we might consider borrowing:

Positive levels
Growth points from the Pathfinder Bestiary (hey, it's 3.5 compatible!)


----------



## freyar (Jan 7, 2010)

You mean like the Pathfinder barghest's growth points?  Could work.  Positive levels are a good idea too.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> You mean like the Pathfinder barghest's growth points?  Could work.  Positive levels are a good idea too.




I roughed out a conversion of the Phoenix Spider a few month ago and decided on a positive level and size bonus approach (e.g. for the first six rebirths it increases by 1 temporary Hit Dice, gains 10 temporary hit points, its bite damage increases one step et cetera; then for the next six stages it loses those benefits in the reverse order it gained them).

It's pretty easy to keep track of the growth-stages by using a table. I made my conversion of the phoenix spider immune to energy drain and ability damage, since I thought it would be a real pain to keep track of them while its rebirthing.

Russian-doll like monsters like this were certainly a lot easier to run in AD&D!

What type do you fancy? Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Fire) worked best for me, although they could be Magical Beast (Fire).

EDIT: I just remembered why they should not have the Fire subtype - Phoenix Spiders can take fire damage, but it just lets them be reborn even stronger!


----------



## Shade (Jan 12, 2010)

With the built-in size increases, I think separate stat blocks would be easiest for DMs to run, but I'm open to the positive level approach.

I think I prefer Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Fire) for the type.


----------



## freyar (Jan 13, 2010)

Hmm, maybe you're right about the extra statblocks.  Or we could drop the size part.

I think Cleon's probably right about the Fire subtype, unfortunately.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, maybe you're right about the extra statblocks.  Or we could drop the size part.




When I was doing my conversion of this monster I found you could put all the relevant information in a size-stage table, like the age-stage tables True Dragons use.

Here's the one I came up with:

 *[FONT=&quot]-------Hit----hit-------------------------------------BAB/----Bite------Web------Saves
Stage-Dice--points--Size-Space/Reach--AC-touch-flat-Grapple-Atk-&-Dam--range--For/Ref/Wil-Hide*[web]*[FONT=&quot]
--*1*---3-HD---*—-*(22)--S---5-ft./5-ft.--16---14---13---+3/–1---+7--1d3---25-ft.--+6/+6/+6----+17*[_+21_]
--*2*---4-HD--*+10*(32)--S---5-ft./5-ft.--17---14---14---+4/+2---+8--1d4---25-ft.--+7/+7/+7----+17*[_+21_]
--*3*---5-HD--*+20*(42)--M---5-ft./5-ft.--18---13---15---+5/+5---+9--1d6---50-ft.--+7/+7/+7----+13*[_+17_]
--*4*---6-HD--*+30*(52)--M---5-ft./5-ft.--19---13---16---+6/+8--+10--1d8---50-ft.--+8/+8/+8----+13*[_+17_]
--*5*---7-HD--*+40*(62)--L--10-ft./10ft.--20---12---17---+7/+11-+11-1d10---75-ft.--+8/+8/+8-----+9*[_+13_]
 --*6*---8-HD--*+50*(72)--L--10-ft./10ft.--21---12---18---+8/+14-+12--2d6---75-ft.--+9/+9/+9-----+9*[_+13_]
--*7*---9-HD--*+60*(82)--H--15-ft./15ft.--22---11---19---+9/+17-+13--2d8--100-ft.--+9/+9/+9------+5*[_+9_]
 --*8*---8-HD--*+50*(72)--L--10-ft./10ft.--21---12---18---+3/+8--+12--2d6---75-ft.-*-*+9/+9/+9-----+9*[_+13_]
--*9*---7-HD--*+40*(62)--L--10-ft./10ft.--20---12---17---+3/+7--+11-1d10---75-ft.--+8/+8/+8-----+9*[_+13_]
-*10*---6-HD--*+30*(52)--M---5-ft./5-ft.--19---13---16---+3/+5--+10--1d8---50-ft.--+8/+8/+8----+13*[_+17_]
 -*11*---5-HD--*+20*(42)--M---5-ft./5-ft.--18---13---15---+3/+3---+9--1d6---50-ft.--+7/+7/+7----+13*[_+17_]
-*12*---4-HD--*+10*(32)--S---5-ft./5-ft.--17---14---14---+3/+1---+8--1d4---25-ft.--+7/+7/+7----+17*[_+21_]
-*13*---3-HD---*—*-(22)--S---5-ft./5-ft.--16---14---13---+3/–1---+7--1d3---25-ft.--+6/+6/+6----+17*[_+21_]
[/FONT][/FONT]
EDIT: I'm afraid that's the most readable I can make it, it's a bit too wide for the Enworld post format. We could use a side-scrolling Window like with the tables for the dragons that sometimes get posted here, but I don't know how to do that on these boards.


----------



## Shade (Jan 13, 2010)

Oh, wow...I hadn't realized we'd need that many stat blocks.

Hmm...if we could simplify it to 3 or 4 that would be preferable.

BTW, if you want a side-scrolling text block, use the word "code" in brackets.  It retains some original formatting, so I generally modify the true dragons in Wordpad, then copy it back in between the code tags.


----------



## freyar (Jan 14, 2010)

What about three or four basic stat blocks with positive levels?  Or just reduce the number of steps?


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

It looks like they start out Tiny and end up Huge.   How about we just increase size with each rebirth, and give it a set number of HD at eac size?

Thus, it starts out 3 HD and Tiny, comes back the first time as 5 HD and Small, then 6 HD Medium, 8 HD Large, and finally 10 HD Huge?  Then, the DM can simply switch to a new stat block with each rebirth, and not worry about any additional number-crunching?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2010)

I think cutting down the number of times it can be reborn is a good idea. Couple that with the discrete stat-blocks?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> What about three or four basic stat blocks with positive levels?  Or just reduce the number of steps?




Well the original only really needed seven stat-lines, since it goes in reverse for the last six.

I'll try that code trick:

```
[FONT=Courier New][SIZE=1][B][FONT=&quot][FONT=Courier New]-------Hit----hit-------------------------------------BAB/----Bite------Web------Saves[/FONT]
 [FONT=Courier New][U]Stage-Dice--points--Size-Space/Reach--AC-touch-flat-Grapple-Atk-&-Dam--range--For/Ref/Wil-Hide*[web][/U][/FONT][/FONT][/B][FONT=&quot][FONT=Courier New]
--[B][I]1[/I][/B]---3-HD---[B][I]—-[/I][/B](22)--S---5-ft./5-ft.--16---14---13---+3/–1---+7--1d3---25-ft.--+6/+6/+6----+17*[[I]+21[/I]]
--[B][I]2[/I][/B]---4-HD--[B][I]+10[/I][/B](32)--S---5-ft./5-ft.--17---14---14---+4/+2---+8--1d4---25-ft.--+7/+7/+7----+17*[[I]+21[/I]]
--[B][I]3[/I][/B]---5-HD--[B][I]+20[/I][/B](42)--M---5-ft./5-ft.--18---13---15---+5/+5---+9--1d6---50-ft.--+7/+7/+7----+13*[[I]+17[/I]]
--[B][I]4[/I][/B]---6-HD--[B][I]+30[/I][/B](52)--M---5-ft./5-ft.--19---13---16---+6/+8--+10--1d8---50-ft.--+8/+8/+8----+13*[[I]+17[/I]]
--[B][I]5[/I][/B]---7-HD--[B][I]+40[/I][/B](62)--L--10-ft./10ft.--20---12---17---+7/+11-+11-1d10---75-ft.--+8/+8/+8-----+9*[[I]+13[/I]][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Courier New][SIZE=1][FONT=&quot][FONT=Courier New]
-[/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Courier New][SIZE=1][FONT=&quot][FONT=Courier New]-[B][I]6[/I][/B]---8-HD--[B][I]+50[/I][/B](72)--L--10-ft./10ft.--21---12---18---+8/+14-+12--2d6---75-ft.--+9/+9/+9-----+9*[[I]+13[/I]][/FONT][FONT=Courier New]
--[B][I]7[/I][/B]---9-HD--[B][I]+60[/I][/B](82)--H--15-ft./15ft.--22---11---19---+9/+17-+13--2d8--100-ft.--+9/+9/+9------+5*[[I]+9[/I]][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
```

Yup, that looks better.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> It looks like they start out Tiny and end up Huge.   How about we just increase size with each rebirth, and give it a set number of HD at eac size?




Thus, it starts out 3 HD and Tiny, comes back the first time as 5 HD and Small, then 6 HD Medium, 8 HD Large, and finally 10 HD Huge?  Then, the DM can simply switch to a new stat block with each rebirth, and not worry about any additional number-crunching?[/quote]

A smaller number of growth stages should make things easier, so we might as well try that.

In my conversion I had the phoenix spider start out at Small with 3 HD and go up a size with every 2 extra HD and maxing out at 9 HD, just for a smoother progression, but I would like a version which went up to 10 HD in whole size steps.

I would still prefer it to start out Small, e.g.:

Small - 3HD
Medium - 5HD
Large - 7 HD
Huge - 10 HD


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

I'm fine with starting Small.


----------



## freyar (Jan 15, 2010)

That size/HD progression works for me.  And it will make it a lot less complicated.


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

We can use the bebelith's ability scores as inspiration for the Huge version, then work our way down to Small.

Bebilith:  Str 28, Dex 12, Con 26, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 13

Int is only low (5-7).  I also imagine the phoenix spiders a bit less strong and a little more dexterous.

So maybe Str 24, Dex 16, Con 26, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 11?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2010)

Those ability scores look good for the final version. Maybe lower Con a bit, to 22-24.


----------



## Shade (Jan 16, 2010)

Sure thing.  It's not like they have to fear death (at least the first few).


----------



## Cleon (Jan 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> That size/HD progression works for me.  And it will make it a lot less complicated.




It has the added advantage that a fewer number of steps means they're less tedious in play, with a maximum of six rebirths instead of twelve, and it has a better chance of reaching Large or Huge size before the adventurers figure out a way to kill it permanently.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> We can use the bebelith's ability scores as inspiration for the Huge version, then work our way down to Small.
> 
> Bebilith:  Str 28, Dex 12, Con 26, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 13
> 
> ...




I agree with Demiurge's preference for dropping the Constitution by 2-4. Are you using standard Advancement increases to the stats? That would give it about Strength 4, Constitution 14 (or 12) at Small, e.g.:

Huge - Str 24, Dex 16, Con 24
Large - Str 16, Dex 18, Con 20
Medium - Str 8, Dex 20, Con 16
Small - Str 4, Dex 22, Con 14

I'd be tempted to give it an Advancement more like the Monstrous Spiders (+4 Strength and +2 Con per size, no change to Dex), and start the Strength at 10 for a Small Phoenix Spider, something like:

Huge - Str 22, Dex 17?, Con 24
Large - Str 18, Dex 17?, Con 20
Medium - Str 14, Dex 17?, Con 18
Small - Str 10, Dex 17?, Con 14


----------



## freyar (Jan 17, 2010)

I could go either way on that.  There is something sensible about using the monstrous spider advancement, though.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> I could go either way on that.  There is something sensible about using the monstrous spider advancement, though.




Sensible? I didn't get where I am today by being sensible!

Maybe it would help if we considered the Bite damage. If we start at, say, 1d4, it would go:

Normal Monster Advancement:
Small --- Str 4, Bite 1d4-3 -(average 1)-- Base
Medium -- Str 8, Bite 1d6-1 -(average 2.5) +1.5
Large -- Str 16, Bite 1d8+4 -(average 8.5) +6
Huge --- Str 24, Bite 2d6+10 (average 17)- +8.5

Monstrous Spider Advancement:
Small -- Str 10, Bite 1d4 - (average 2.5  ) Base
 Medium - Str 14, Bite 1d6+3 (average 6  .5) +4
 Large -- Str 18, Bite 1d8+6 (average 10.5) +4
 Huge --- Str 22, Bite 2d6+9 (average 16)-- +6 

Of those the Monstrous Spider version gives a much more linear progression, while the normal advancement gives a sudden jump in damage from Medium to Large.

Bearing that in mind, I think I prefer the Monstrous Spider version.


----------



## Shade (Jan 19, 2010)

Added the Small version to Homebrews.

Do we want the poison and web to scale with size, like the monstrous spider?  It sounds like its poison should deal Con damage, since it is lethal.

Since the creature is essentially the same creature throughout its size changes, I'd recommend we keep feats and skill ranks the same across the board.  Should we base them off its smallest or largest incarnation?

Retain the monstrous spider's skill modifiers?

Give 'em telepathy like most demons?


----------



## freyar (Jan 20, 2010)

Yes to scaling, smallest size for feats and skills, yes to telepathy and spider skill modifiers.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yes to scaling, smallest size for feats and skills, yes to telepathy and spider skill modifiers.




I will back the poison scaling with size and HD (since it goes along with their bite damage scaling) and having their skills and feats fixed to their lowest level (since it's simpler). Not so sure about the telepathy, since they aren't "true" demons, but if you want it I won't say no.


----------



## Shade (Jan 21, 2010)

Basing on the smallest incarnation, we'll have 8 skills at 6 ranks and 2 feats.

Skills:  Balance, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble?

For the monstrous spider racial skills modifiers, should we consider these web-spinning spiders, hunting spiders, or both?

Shall we wait on the feats to see if there's a need for Ability Focus?

For the poison, shall we follow the monstrous spider's damage progression, swapping Str with Con?


----------



## freyar (Jan 22, 2010)

They seem to be able to throw webs at single targets, so let's go with web-spinners.  And I agree to save the feats.  Using monstrous spider poison progression works for me!


----------



## Shade (Jan 22, 2010)

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jan 24, 2010)

Have we settled on a HD progression for these?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Basing on the smallest incarnation, we'll have 8 skills at 6 ranks and 2 feats.
> 
> Skills:  Balance, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble?
> 
> ...




Those skills looks good to me.

Definitely prefer the web-spinner racial bonuses to them, since they throw webs and resemble black widows.

I'd prefer to up the poison damage from the Monstrous Spider. The original has a lethal bite, so 1d3/1d3 Con may not be enough. Perhaps up it to 1d6 or 1d8, increasing with larger sizes? Something like:

Small - 1d8
Medium -  1d10
Large - 2d6
Huge - 2d8


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Have we settled on a HD progression for these?




I'd suggested one earlier, but can't remember how much agreement it got:


Cleon said:


> Small - 3HD
> Medium - 5HD
> Large - 7 HD
> Huge - 10 HD




If we combine that with Monstrous Spider ability advancement we get:

Small -- HD 3, Str 10, Dex 17, Con 14, Bite 1d4 - (poison 1d3 or 1d8?)
 Medium - HD 5, Str 14, Dex 17, Con 16, Bite 1d6+3 (poison 1d4 to 1d10?)
 Large -- HD 7, Str 18, Dex 17, Con 16,Bite 1d8+6 (poison 1d6 to 2d6?)
 Huge -- HD 10, Str 22, Dex 17, Con 18,Bite 2d6+9 (poison 1d8 to 2d8?)


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.




This is starting to look pretty good!

I'll propose a couple of additions to the stats, based on the original description.

First, Phoenix Spiders serve an unnamed Flame Lord as well as Lolth, so we could add "Elemental Plane of Fire" to its Environment.

Second, it says their silk is immune to fire, so the Web entry needs augmenting to include this. Simply adding the lines "A phoenix spider's web has immunity to fire. This immunity only applies to the spider's silk, it does not protect the spider itself or anything wrapped in its web." should be sufficient.


----------



## Shade (Jan 25, 2010)

Updated with the larger sizes.

Good suggestions in that last post.  I can't believe I forgot the Plane of Fire for the environment.

I'm not sure the increased Con damage is necessary.  Many creatures that had "lethal" venom in earlier editions don't have ultra-high Con damage in 3e.  The staying power of these critters leads me to believe the current Con damage should be fairly deadly.   Anyone other opinions?


----------



## freyar (Jan 25, 2010)

I think the lower Con damage for the poison is good.  These are going to be darned tough anyway.  And hard to work out CR.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 26, 2010)

I agree to keeping lower Con damage.


----------



## Shade (Jan 26, 2010)

> They can be killed by normal means and take double damage from cold attacks and temperatures. Fire-based attacks of sufficient power (doing damage greater than or equal to their current hit-point totals) will seem to kill them. However, such attacks actually strengthen these creatures, causing them to reform in three rounds. If slain by other means, it takes nine rounds for these monsters to reform their essences into a more powerful creature.
> 
> Only being killed by cold-based spells prevents these beasts from reforming again.






> If a spider has reached its seventh transformation (20’) and it is slain by fire, it reverses its growth process, shrinking one size lower with each death. Any other method of killing it after its seventh life will permanently kill it.




Here's an attempt to summarize the process as an ability.  I think we should change the 9 rounds and 3 rounds to variable amounts, possibly 3d3 (or 1d8+1) and 1d3 rounds?

Rise From the Ashes (Su): When a phoenix spider is slain (reduced to -10 hit points or below), its body is immolated, leaving nothing but ash.  Nine rounds later, the phoenix spider reforms from the ashes, larger and stronger .  If the "killing blow" contains fire damage, the phoenix spider instead reforms 3 rounds later in the same location where it perished.

When the phoenix spider reforms, use the stat block for the next larger size.  Thus, a Small phoenix spider rises as a Medium phoenix spider, a Medium as a Large, and a Large as a Huge.  A Huge phoenix spider reduced to -10 hit points begins the procees in reverse, arising as a Large phoenix spider.  This reformation continues until the spider is slain in Small size.  At this point, it is permanently destroyed.

At any point in the process, should an attack that deals cold damage reduce the phoenix spider to less than -10 hit points, the spider is permanently destroyed.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 26, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> I agree to keeping lower Con damage.




That's okay by me, I'm not that strongly attached to the idea.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Here's an attempt to summarize the process as an ability.  I think we should change the 9 rounds and 3 rounds to variable amounts, possibly 3d3 (or 1d8+1) and 1d3 rounds?




Making it variable suits me. How about 2d4+1 (3-9) rounds normally, 1d3 (1-3) rounds if slain by fire?



Shade said:


> Rise From the Ashes (Su): When a phoenix spider is slain (reduced to -10 hit points or below), its body is immolated, leaving nothing but ash.  Nine rounds later, the phoenix spider reforms from the ashes, larger and stronger .  If the "killing blow" contains fire damage, the phoenix spider instead reforms 3 rounds later in the same location where it perished.




What happens if the spider is knocked unconscious (0 hp) or dying (-1 to -9 hp) and gets stabilized? Indeed, a party that is familiar with the monster might try to stabilize its wounds to prevent it reforming.

Maybe we should make that "reduced to 0 hit points or below" rather than -10?

I'd also move the "in the same location" bit into the first sentence on it reforming.

It also occurs to me we want to say the spider reforms at its full hit points. I think an easy way of doing it is comparing it to a _true resurrection_.



Shade said:


> When the phoenix spider reforms, use the stat block for the next larger size.  Thus, a Small phoenix spider rises as a Medium phoenix spider, a Medium as a Large, and a Large as a Huge.  A Huge phoenix spider reduced to -10 hit points begins the procees in reverse, arising as a Large phoenix spider.  This reformation continues until the spider is slain in Small size.  At this point, it is permanently destroyed.
> 
> At any point in the process, should an attack that deals cold damage reduce the phoenix spider to less than -10 hit points, the spider is permanently destroyed.




This second and third paragraph look fine to me, except for the -10 hp problem I mentioned earlier.

If I apply all these suggested modifications we end up with something like:

*Rise From the Ashes (Su):* When a phoenix spider is reduced to 0 hit points or below its body is immolated, leaving nothing but ash. *X* rounds later, the phoenix spider reforms from its ashes at the location it perished in a larger and stronger form. If the "killing blow" contains fire damage, the phoenix spider instead reforms *Y* rounds later.

A phoenix spider reforms from its ashes at its full hit points, vigor and health, as if it was the recipient of a _true resurrection_ spell.

When the phoenix spider reforms, use the stat block for the next larger size. Thus, a Small phoenix spider rises as a Medium phoenix spider, a Medium as a Large, and a Large as a Huge. A Huge phoenix spider reduced to 0 or fewer hit points begins the process in reverse, arising as a Large phoenix spider. This reformation continues until the spider is slain (reduced to less than -10 hit points) in Small size. At this point, it is permanently destroyed.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 26, 2010)

One other question to consider - what happens if the Phoenix Spider survives the combat?

Does it remain in a larger "from the ashes" form indefinitely, or does it slowly shrink back to its default Small size?


----------



## Shade (Jan 27, 2010)

Cleon said:


> One other question to consider - what happens if the Phoenix Spider survives the combat?
> 
> Does it remain in a larger "from the ashes" form indefinitely, or does it slowly shrink back to its default Small size?




An excellent question!   I think I'd prefer the former, allowing DMs to start them at a larger size if so inclined.

Good suggestion on switching to 0 hp rather than -10.

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jan 28, 2010)

This looks good!


----------



## Cleon (Jan 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> An excellent question!   I think I'd prefer the former, allowing DMs to start them at a larger size if so inclined.
> 
> Good suggestion on switching to 0 hp rather than -10.
> 
> Updated.




The new "From the Ashes" looks fine. I guess we don't need to explicitly state the reformed Phoenix Spider remains at its larger size.

I notice that the updated stats don't yet have their skills correctly adjusted for their change in Size & Strength. I make it that they should be:

*Small Phoenix Spider* - Climb +11, Hide +17*, Jump +8
*Medium Phoenix Spider* - Climb +11, Hide +13*, Jump +10
*Large Phoenix Spider* - Climb +12, Hide +9*, Jump +12
*Huge Phoenix Spider* - Climb +14, Hide +5*, Jump +14


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2010)

I had a feeling I'd mess up some of the skills.  

Updated.

Ready for the 2 feats?

CR 9-10?   They aren't nearly as deadly as a vrock or bebelith, but they have ridiculous staying power.


----------



## freyar (Jan 28, 2010)

Just thinking: should "Rise From the Ashes" say explicitly that the larger sizes versions retain the same skill ranks and feats as the base Small version?

I'm thinking that Ability Focus (poison may be too nasty).  Perhaps Iron Will and Weapon Focus (bite)?  Those should be useful at all sizes.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> Just thinking: should "Rise From the Ashes" say explicitly that the larger sizes versions retain the same skill ranks and feats as the base Small version?




It wouldn't hurt putting something like "A Phoenix Spider does not gain any skill points or feats if it gains any additional Hit Dice when reforming from its ashes, but retains the skills ranks and feats of its base form."



freyar said:


> I'm thinking that Ability Focus (poison may be too nasty).  Perhaps Iron Will and Weapon Focus (bite)?  Those should be useful at all sizes.




Those work for me.


----------



## freyar (Jan 29, 2010)

How about the slightly shorter

"At all sizes and HD, a phoenix spider retains the skills ranks and feats of its base form (Small and 3HD for a typical specimen)."

?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about the slightly shorter
> 
> "At all sizes and HD, a phoenix spider retains the skills ranks and feats of its base form (Small and 3HD for a typical specimen)."
> 
> ?




That'd work for me.


----------



## Shade (Feb 1, 2010)

Updated.

CR 9-10?   They aren't nearly as deadly as a vrock or bebelith, but they have ridiculous staying power.

Organization: Solitary or x (2–10)


----------



## freyar (Feb 1, 2010)

CR 9 is ok.  Solitary or nest?


----------



## Shade (Feb 1, 2010)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## freyar (Feb 1, 2010)

Ok here.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 2, 2010)

Please?


----------



## Shade (Feb 2, 2010)

Please be finished?  It only took a little over a month.  

*SPIDER CAT*
Created by: K.L. Campbell
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: -1
MOVE: 24” (includes vertical surfaces)*26”
HIT DICE: 7+7
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE TYPE: B
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite and 2 clawed forefeet
DAMAGE: 2-12/2-8/2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Web, poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to webs, fear, and illusions; +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
SIZE: L (10’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: VII/1,725 + 10/hp

Spider cats are the creations of a mad wizard, millenia dead. They now roam the Prime Material Plane, eating anything smaller than they are.

Predatory spider cats are able to fire a mass of webbing at likely looking prey within 30’. If a spider cat’s webbing hits a target, the victim must roll his bend bars/lift gates percentage to break free. A roll is allowed each round that a victim is held, but the strands get harder and tighter each each round, causing a cumulative -10% to the bend bars roll until the victim is completely immobile. Once a single spider cat has webbed a target, it drags off its prey in the rigid mass, leaving everyone else alone (including other potential victims or attackers). If such a beast is attacked, however, it defends itself.

If bitten by a spider cat, a victim must save vs. poison at -2 or die. If he makes his save, he takes 25 hp damage from the effects of the spider venom. Anyone slain by the venom is slowly dissolved, from the inside out, as the venom liquefies the once-living tissue. Because of this process, slain adventurers can only be brought back to life with a wish spell. The dissolving process is completed within 13-24 rounds, leaving the victim sealed inside the hardened webbing for the spider cat’s later enjoyment (spider cats can easily bite through and consume their own hardened webs).

Spider cats appear to have the thorax and abdomen of a tarantula-like spider, with a feline head, a golden-furred body, and lionlike clawed feet. Large, sharpened mandibles appear in place of a regular mouth. These monsters tend to lair in prides which attack all living creatures, though they strictly avoid undead (apparently hating the smell). They collect treasure by accident, though their ravages usually ensure that the remains of many victims and their belongings will be found in their cavern lairs.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #118 (1987).

_SPIDER CAT
SPIDER CAT
Does whatever a SPIDER CAT does 
Can he swing 
From a web 
No he cant 
He's a cat
LOOK OOOUUUTTT!!!! 
He is a SPIDER CAT!!_

With apologies to the Simpsons.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Please be finished?  It only took a little over a month.




You didn't really expect to escape so soon, did you?

Firstly, there's an error in the stats.

The Medium Spider should have a bite attack of +8, not +5 (+5 HD, +2 Str, +1 Weapon Focus).

Secondly, I'm not 100% sure about the Challenge Rating of 9, but these things are very hard to peg. If you attack it with cold off the bat they're a pretty easy kill, but it you have to wittle them down through the entire growth cycle they're a tough proposition.

Thinking it over, I think I'd rather give each stage its own CR - say CR 3 for the Small, CR 4 for Medium, CR 5 for Large and CR 6 for Huge - and just add up the XP as if the players' had fought them as a succession of separate monsters, maybe with a bonus for delivering the "final death".

I'll go along with giving them a single CR if you think that's too fiddly, though.


----------



## Shade (Feb 2, 2010)

Cleon said:


> You didn't really expect to escape so soon, did you?




No, I was hoping to be converting things to 3e well into 8th editon.  



Cleon said:


> Firstly, there's an error in the stats.
> 
> The Medium Spider should have a bite attack of +8, not +5 (+5 HD, +2 Str, +1 Weapon Focus).




Fixed.



Cleon said:


> I'll go along with giving them a single CR if you think that's too fiddly, though.




Yeah, way too fiddly.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Please be finished?  It only took a little over a month.
> 
> *SPIDER CAT*
> Created by: K.L. Campbell
> ...




Oh good! This is my favourite of the _Dragon #118_ spider monsters, and it made for a fun conversion. I'm looking forward to seeing what this thread's take on it will be.

Starting at the beginning, Magical Beast seems pretty obvious, considering it's higher-than-animal intelligence.

Other obvious bits: Size Large; Armour Class 21 or so, SA: Poison and Solidifying Web; SQ: Damage Reduction, Immunities, Spell Resistance, plus the usual Magical Beast's Darkvision and Low-Light Vision.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> _SPIDER CAT
> SPIDER CAT
> Does whatever a SPIDER CAT does
> Can he swing
> ...




Don't forget to apologize to Paul Francis Webster and Robert Harris.

Besides, if the spider cat can shoot webbing it can probably swing from a web, so you're getting it wrong!


----------



## Shade (Feb 2, 2010)

I could see giving it pounce as well, since it seems to come partially from lion stock, like the griffon.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> I could see giving it pounce as well, since it seems to come partially from lion stock, like the griffon.




That was my thinking too. I ended up using the SRD Tiger's stats, since they were a better fit to the Spider Cat's damage and Hit Dice.


----------



## Shade (Feb 3, 2010)

Let's figure out ability scores:

Lion:  Str 21, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6, +3 natural armor
Large Monstrous Spider:  Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2, +2 natural armor
Griffon: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 8, +6 natural armor
Phase Spider: Str 17, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 10, +3 natural armor

Int is Semi- (2-4).
7+7 HD implies good Con.
AC 21 implies good Dex.  Even with the griffon's +6 natural armor, we'd still need another +6 from Dex to achieve that AC, barring deflection/insight bonuses (which don't seem appropriate here).

So how about...

Str 17, Dex 23, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 7, +6 natural armor


----------



## freyar (Feb 3, 2010)

Abilities look ok to me!

I'm starting to feel that we should start up a "finishing the spiders" thread, but I also have a suspicion that it would take forever to finish due to the number of these monsters!


----------



## Shade (Feb 3, 2010)

Those very thoughts crossed my mind.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 4, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's figure out ability scores:
> 
> Lion:  Str 21, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6, +3 natural armor
> Large Monstrous Spider:  Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2, +2 natural armor
> ...




I'd up the Strength a bit, aren't these things a bit bigger (10 feet long versus a Phase's 8 feet) and possibly heftier than a Phase Spider?  Combined with their "Big Cat DNA" that would imply a higher Strength.

Average a Phase Spider's Str 17 and a Lion's Str 21 for Str 19?


----------



## Shade (Feb 4, 2010)

That works for me.

Added to Homebrews.



> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to webs, fear, and illusions; +2 or better weapon to hit




DR 10/magic?

Simplify to immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities, or stick with immunity to fear and illusions?

The tangle terror has an ability that should cover "immune to webs"...

Immunity to Webs (Ex) A tangle terror is unaffected by natural and magical webs.


Give it the usual web-spinning monstrous spider racial skill bonuses?   Blend in some of the lion's bonuses? (Lions have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks.)


----------



## Cleon (Feb 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> DR 10/magic?
> 
> Simplify to immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities, or stick with immunity to fear and illusions?
> 
> ...




All of the above is OK by me.



Shade said:


> Give it the usual web-spinning monstrous spider racial skill bonuses?   Blend in some of the lion's bonuses? (Lions have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks.)




Lions also have a +12 racial bonus on Hide checks in tall grass & undergrowth.

Spider Cats seem more stalkers than trappers, so I'd rather give them some combination of a Hunting Spider and a Lion's racial bonuses:*Hunting Monstrous Spider *- +4 Hide, +8 Climb and Spot; +10 Jump.
*Lion* - +4 Balance, Hide and Move Silently; +12 Hide in grass.​If we simply average those it'd work out to something like +2 to Balance and Move Silently; +4 to Spot and Hide* (+8 Hide in grass);  +5 to Jump and +8 to Climb - the Climb wouldn't be averaged since it comes from a Climb speed.

We may want to round the +5 racial bonus to Jump. If we drop it to +4 then the Spider Cat will still have a Jump modifier at least +12 higher than a lion, since its Speed is 20 ft. higher.

So, in conclusion:

Racial Skill Bonuses: +2 to Balance and Move Silently; +4 to Jump, Spot and Hide* (+8 Hide in grass) and +8 to Climb ?


----------



## freyar (Feb 6, 2010)

That's all good by me.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm alright with blanket immunity to mind-influencing effects... although we should give them the concurrent weakness of being vulnerable to spells that specifically target vermin.


----------



## freyar (Feb 8, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'm alright with blanket immunity to mind-influencing effects... although we should give them the concurrent weakness of being vulnerable to spells that specifically target vermin.



Nice idea!  I'll go along with that!


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2010)

Updated.

I'll agree with the racial skill modifiers, but I intentionally didn't mention the lion's bonus in grass, since half this thing is arachnid (and not necessarily tawny colored).

So, would the majority of you like to make the whole critter lion-colored, or have the spider-parts be brown or black?

What type of ability damage, and how much, should the poison deal?


----------



## freyar (Feb 9, 2010)

The physical description is 







> Spider cats appear to have the thorax and abdomen of a tarantula-like spider, with a feline head, a golden-furred body, and lionlike clawed feet.




Given the golden fur and tarantula-like description for the thorax and abdomen, I'm ok with the racial bonus.  Of course, we also mean dry, yellowish grass even for the lion part, which makes even more sense for me with the tarantula.

Poison damage sounds like Con plus a progressive web effect (or we could make it Con and Dex).  At 7HD, we could do 1d6/1d6 Con.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2010)

I like the Con and Dex damage.


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2010)

OK, I'm now convinced of the grass camoflauge.  

So 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con for primary and secondary, or 1d6 Con/1d6 Dex?


----------



## freyar (Feb 11, 2010)

Let's do 1d3 of each both times.  I like that.


----------



## Shade (Feb 11, 2010)

Updated.

Skills: 10 ranks
Current modifiers look like this:  Balance +8, Climb +12, Hide +6*, Jump +20, Move Silently +8, Spot +5

Feats: 3

Environment: Warm plains (like a lion)?  

Treasure: x
Type B looks like standard treasure.

Alignment: Always chaotic neutral?

Advancement: x


----------



## Cleon (Feb 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> The physical description is
> 
> Given the golden fur and tarantula-like description for the thorax and abdomen, I'm ok with the racial bonus.  Of course, we also mean dry, yellowish grass even for the lion part, which makes even more sense for me with the tarantula.




Glad we agree.



freyar said:


> Poison damage sounds like Con plus a progressive web effect (or we could make it Con and Dex).  At 7HD, we could do 1d6/1d6 Con.




Why the progressive Dex effect? Isn't it their solidifying webs that gradually restrict their victim's mobility, while their venom just kills and liquefies?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Skills: 10 ranks
> Current modifiers look like this:  Balance +8, Climb +12, Hide +6*, Jump +20, Move Silently +8, Spot +5




3 skill points apiece in Hide & Move Silently and 4 points in Spot?



Shade said:


> Feats: 3




The original has a potent (-2 save) venom, so Ability Focus (poison) would make sense.

Lions have Alertness and Run, so we could give it one or both of those. Run seems surplus to requirements though, since it has such a high speed. I'd be happy to swap it for something more combat-worthy.

Maybe something that exploits their high Dex - Weapon Finesse? Combat Reflexes? Improved Initiative (like a Phase Spider?)

Weapon Finesse is the most all-round useful, since it improves all its attacks by 2.

I'm not that enamoured of Alertness either, and wouldn't mind Multiattack instead.

Ability Focus (poison), Multiattack, Weapon Finesse ?



Shade said:


> Environment: Warm plains (like a lion)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## freyar (Feb 12, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Why the progressive Dex effect? Isn't it their solidifying webs that gradually restrict their victim's mobility, while their venom just kills and liquefies?




You know, I was confused when I read the poison before and mixed it up with the web.  Should we somehow revise the web (to make it progressively harder to escape) and poison back to Con damage only (adding liquification maybe)?

Cleon's skills and feats sound good to me.

Advance it like a lion: 8-13HD (Large)?


----------



## Shade (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm not real fond of the "solidifying webs", as it will result in a clunky mechanic.  I think the Con and Dex damage poison is a reasonable replacement.  But I'll bow to the majority if that's what you all prefer.

If the creature's main niche was that it created stony webs or something similar that explained the need for the solidifying webs, I'd be more amenable to the concept, even if it will be a pain to implement.  But since this creature is essentially just a variant griffon (blending spider rather than hawk), and the base creatures have nothing similar, this ability feels tacked-on.

If we do go that route, we should model it off the thorciasid.

The liquefication could be mimiced with the usual "can't be raised" mechanic, and is probably reasonable at its CR like the barghest.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> You know, I was confused when I read the poison before and mixed it up with the web.  Should we somehow revise the web (to make it progressively harder to escape) and poison back to Con damage only (adding liquification maybe)?
> 
> Cleon's skills and feats sound good to me.
> 
> Advance it like a lion: 8-13HD (Large)?




I'd like it to advance a size, so perhaps 8-13HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm not real fond of the "solidifying webs", as it will result in a clunky mechanic.  I think the Con and Dex damage poison is a reasonable replacement.  But I'll bow to the majority if that's what you all prefer.




I'll go along with whatever the majority fancies regarding the Solidifying Web. It makes little difference to me.



Shade said:


> The liquefication could be mimiced with the usual "can't be raised" mechanic, and is probably reasonable at its CR like the barghest.




That's what I'd go for, maybe with a liquefaction onset time so it can be slowed or prevented by _delay poison_ or _neutralize poison_.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2010)

I'd rather not have the solidifying webs, but I do like the liquification foiling raise dead. Not ressurection, though. If disintegrated ashes count for ressurection, so should a bucket full of PC.

I do agree with Cleon's feat suggestions.


----------



## freyar (Feb 14, 2010)

Why don't we just boost the racial bonus for the Str check DC to burst the web (and add one for the Escape Artist DC)?

Incorporating the liquefaction:
Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial and secondary damage 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex. Victims killed by the spidercat's poison are liquefied and cannot be returned to life by raise dead.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

I'd be ok with switching the damage to all Con, too, but I don't mind either way.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Why don't we just boost the racial bonus for the Str check DC to burst the web (and add one for the Escape Artist DC)?




That'd be a decent compromise. An extra 4 points to make in +4/+8?



freyar said:


> Incorporating the liquefaction:
> Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial and secondary damage 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex. Victims killed by the spidercat's poison are liquefied and cannot be returned to life by raise dead.  The save DC is Constitution-based.




I'd prefer it to state that their insides are liquified, something like "Victims killed by the spidercat's venom have their internal organs liquified so cannot be returned to life by _raise dead_, more potent magic such as _resurrection_ is needed."



freyar said:


> I'd be ok with switching the damage to all Con, too, but I don't mind either way.




My preference is for all Constitution damage, and I'd like the amount of Con damage to be increased so a single bite could kill most characters. It doesn't feel right to have a poison that turns its victims insides into mush to do a measly 1d3 Con damage.

Maybe 1d10 Con?


----------



## freyar (Feb 15, 2010)

Your change to the poison is ok with me:

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con. The internal organs of victims killed by the spidercat's poison are liquefied, so creatures killed by the poison cannot be returned to life by raise dead. Resurrection or greater magic works as usual, however.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

I'd be willing to go up to 1d6 Con/1d6 Con, as indicated in my edit.  That's what the wyvern has, and I believe it also used to be save or die in previous editions.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 15, 2010)

1d6 Con initial and secondary is as high as I'm willing to go on the poison damage.


----------



## Shade (Feb 16, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

A typical spider cat's body is 10 feet long. It weighs about x pounds.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 16, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> 1d6 Con initial and secondary is as high as I'm willing to go on the poison damage.




I can live with that.

What about the Solidifying Web, is an extra 4 point bonus on the DC alright?

EDIT: Belay that question! Shade just updated the entry with +4/+8.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: x




Well they're a fair bit nastier in melee than the CR5 Phase Spider - two more HD, three high-damage attacks, DR, SR and web.

Challenge Rating 6?



Shade said:


> A typical spider cat's body is 10 feet long. It weighs about x pounds.




A phase spider's 700 pounds with an 8-foot body, so if it's uniformly scaled it'd work out at ~1360 pounds.

The SRD lion's 5-8 feet and 330-550 pounds, and the SRD tiger's 9 feet and 400-600 pounds, which scaled up to 1070-2640 pounds (lion) or 550-825 pounds (tiger).

So, anything from a (slim) 1000 pounds to a (robust) 1800 pounds would do as far as I'm concerned.

1200 to 1500 pounds?


----------



## Shade (Feb 17, 2010)

Sounds good.   

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Updated.




It's looking good.

The only error I can see in the writeup is a "Each 5-foot section has the hit points given on the table" in the Web description.

I'd suggest "Each 5-foot section has 14 hit points (16 hp for a Huge spider cat)" rather than a Large Monstrous Spider's 12 hits (14 for Huge).

A Huge Monstrous Spider is approximately as tough (8HD, 52 hp, Str 19, web DCs 16/20) as a Large Spider Cat (7HD, 59 hp, Str 19, web DCs 20/24), so I'd think its webs would have similar hit points.

Indeed, since a Spider Cat's web is "solidifying" and has DCs that match a Gargantuan spider's, I'd even consider 16 hps for a standard Spider Cat's web (18 hp for Huge).

Once the web HPs are sorted out I think we're done with this one.

I'm really enjoying these conversions, it's interesting to see all the different versions people come up with.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 18, 2010)

Oh, and I forgot to to mention it doesn't have tremorsense 60 ft. like a Monstrous Spider.

There are other Spider-Monsters that lack tremorsense, such as the SRD Phase Spider, but I don't remember us discussing this.

I don't really care whether it has tremorsense or not, so I'll leave it to you.


----------



## Shade (Feb 18, 2010)

I'm glad you caught that.  I'd say "yes" to tremorsense, and probably 14 (16) for the web hps.

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm glad you caught that.  I'd say "yes" to tremorsense, and probably 14 (16) for the web hps.
> 
> Updated.




Looking even better.

Just thought of another thing, Spiders usually have "can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher" in Skills. 

If we add that trait to the Spider Cat  it will get Climb +14 from its really impressive Dex.

I only seem to be noticing these things one at a time.

Sorry about that, I'm not trying to work up my post count, honest.


----------



## Shade (Feb 19, 2010)

I'll add that.   Here's the next conversion.  Feel free to continue commenting on the spider cat if you find we've missed anything else.

*Golem, Nyraala*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special (See Below)
INTELLIGENCE: Non-(O)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 8
HIT DICE: 10
THACO: 11
NO. ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d8/2d8/1d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Golem Immunities, +1 or better weapons to hit, tentacle parry
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 70%
SIZE: L (10')
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 9,000

Nyraala golems are a melding of humanoid flesh, psionically active illithid mucous; and a special form of Underdark fungus that can be harvested only once every ten years. From the waist up, the creature has a purple humanoid torso with two powerful humanoid arms. The skin is moist and gives off a faint odor of spoiled meat. In place of a neck and head is a very long, thick tentacle. Below the waist, these psionic creations are supported by three large tentacles in place of legs. Nyraala golems also have a second form; they can break down into mounds of seemingly inactive fungal growth. These mounds cannot move except to assume their golem form.

Nyraala golems never speak but can understand the mental commands of their mind flayer creators. When moving, their bodies make a sickening, liquid squishing sound.

Combat: Nyraala golems are effectively mindless, like other, lesser golems. However, the illithids' psionic engineering allows them to program the constructs to execute efficient, preset tactics in the heat of battle. When an enemy is detected, nyraala golems reanimate their bodies in a gory implosion of mucous and flailing limbs, imposing a -3 penalty to their opponents' surprise rolls. Opponents who survive this first encounter may recognize the distinctive appearance of nyraala fungal mounds in the future (with an Intelligence check at a -2 penalty). Much like brain golems, nyraala golems instinctively sense and focus their attacks on opponent spellcasters. They may strike each round with their fists to deliver two smashing punches and then whip their head-tentacles around for a powerful strike. When facing opponents with superior melee abilities, the nyraala golems are programmed to attempt to foil damaging close range attacks. They may forfeit the next rounds' tentacle strike and use their head-tentacles to parry anyone melee attack. To do so, the golem must make an attack roll against their opponent. The roll is made after their attacker makes their own attack roll. If successful, no damage is done to the golem from that attack. If the golem's attack roll falls short by no more than four, only half damage is done.
Nyraala golems are immune to poison, death magic, and all forms of mental attacks.

Habitat/Society: These automatons are popular with illithid communities for two reasons. One, they provide a level of protection almost equal to the enormously powerful brain golems (q.v.) without making it necessary to petition the elder brain for one and having it available for only one task. Two, nyraala golems can break their bodies down into a peculiar mound of fungal growth, providing them with a very effective form of camouflage. It is in this form that they are usually set to guard the dwellings and treasure chambers of their illithid masters. Nyraala golems have also been programmed to retrieve items from hostile areas, protect travelling mind flayers and the bodies of astral projecting ones, and capture specific targets. Programming any action into a particular golem takes at least a day, and each may be set to perform only one task at a time. The psionic programming process allows for only very specific actions to be set, and it is not unknown for a nyraala golem to stop and remain motionless when unforeseen circumstances complicate its currently assigned task.

Ecology: Nyraala golems are artificial lifeforms. They neither contribute to nor expend the resources of their environment. They do, however, provide a measure of status to their illithid owners as the cost in resources to create them is usually quite high and must be provided to a member the Creative Creed by their potential owner.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #255 (1999).


----------



## Cleon (Feb 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'll add that.   Here's the next conversion.  Feel free to continue commenting on the spider cat if you find we've missed anything else.




I can't think of anything to further, but you needn't worry about me piping up if I want to add something!

By the way, would you mind if we do the Metal Mimic from Dragon 101 once we've finished the Nyraala Golem.

I fancy "Finishing off the Mimics", so to speak.

Anyhow, these Golems look fairly like they'll be a fairly straightforward conversion. 

They have the same movement, slam attacks and Intelligence as an AD&D Flesh Golem, but 1 more Hit Dice and magic resistance instead of spell invulnerability, plus an AC that's 5 points better (AC 4 vs AC 9).

So I'm thinking we can take the SRD Flesh Golem and modify it a bit.

So, I'm thinking we could modify the SRD Flesh Golem as follows:

*Size/Type* - leave it at Large Construct
*Hit Dice* - +1HD to make it 10d10+30
*Attack/Attacks* - add a tentacle secondary attack (1d10) to the Flesh Golem's 2 slams? Might want to give it Multiattack or Improved Multiattack as a bonus feat, since it appears very adept with that tentacle, as it can parry blows with it. We could make its slams the secondary attacks, but the Combat entry reads like they're primaries.
*Armour class* - increase natural armour by 5 to NA +15.
*Special Qualities* - remove immunity to magic, add SR *X*.
*Abilities* - It is a bigger than a Fleshie (10' vs 7  [FONT=&quot]½[/FONT]') but is still Large, so I'm thinking it needs a higher Strength. Maybe Str 25?

The two main features we need to work out are its tentacle-parry ability and its "mound of fungus" alternate form. We've already got a number of SAs and SQs that are similar to that.

Speaking of that tentacle, shall we give it extra Reach?

*Space/Reach* - 10 ft./10 ft. (tentacle 20 ft.)

I'm tempted to give it a modified version of my *Neo-Otyugh conversion's* Wield Foe special attack so not only can it parry blows with its tentacle, it can pick up a foe and smash its enemies with them or deflect their attacks, but we can just cut it down to a "Parry Blow" SA if you'd rather.*Wield Foe (Ex):* With a successful grapple check, a neo-otyugh can wield a Small or Medium sized creature as a weapon or shield.

 Used as a weapon, the neo-otyugh makes a single attack roll against both the AC of the target and the flat-footed AC of the creature it is wielding. It inflicts 1d6+4 damage if it hits either.

 Used as a shield, the neo-otyugh gains a +1 shield bonus (AC 21, touch 8, flat -footed 21) and can attempt to block one melee attack from any creature within its reach. The otyugh makes an attack roll with its shield, if this roll equals or exceeds the attack roll of its opponent, the opponent's melee attack hits the wielded creature instead of its intended target, inflicting damage if the opponent's attack roll would hit the wielded creature's flat-footed armour class. The opponent need only roll its normal damage against the wielded creature, they do not add any extra damage from criticals or special combat manoeuvres such as the Power Attack feat or a rogue's Sneak Attack.​


----------



## freyar (Feb 22, 2010)

The higher Str makes sense, and I'll agree to exceptional reach (maybe just 15ft, though).  I feel like I've seen a more normal parrying ability somewhere, too.


----------



## Shade (Feb 22, 2010)

We might also compare them to the brain golem, another illithid-spawned golem.

Those are 12 HD, 8 feet tall, and Str 23, Dex 11, Con -, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 8.

I seem to recall a simpler parry ability as well.  I'll begin the hunt for it...


----------



## Cleon (Feb 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> The higher Str makes sense, and I'll agree to exceptional reach (maybe just 15ft, though).  I feel like I've seen a more normal parrying ability somewhere, too.




It might help to look at a picture of the beast and see how long the head-tentacle is, but the Dragon mag DCs only go up to #250 and I don't fancy digging through my two cupboards of back-issues to find my hardcopy of #255.

As for the parry SA, I remember seeing other versions of it around, most use a simple attack roll vs attack roll to determine success, something like:

*Tentacle-Parry (Ex):* A nyraala golem can use an immediate action to try parrying a single melee attack by any opponent within reach of its tentacle. The golem makes a tentacle attack roll and, if the result is equal to or higher than the opponent's attack roll, it successfully parries the blow and takes no damage. The golem can not make a regular tentacle-attack in a round it uses tentacle-parry.

That should be enough to cover it, although it leaves out a few issues (such as parrying objects that cause damage by contact, like flaming weapons; whether it can parry siege-engine scale attacks, et cetera), but I don't think we need cover every eventuality.


----------



## Echohawk (Feb 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




A quick question on the phoenix spiders. The small variety are listed as CR9, but there aren't CRs listed for the medium to huge versions. Are they all supposed to be CR9 or is that an oversight?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 28, 2010)

Echohawk said:


> A quick question on the phoenix spiders. The small variety are listed as CR9, but there aren't CRs listed for the medium to huge versions. Are they all supposed to be CR9 or is that an oversight?




I believe the assumption was all the rebirth stages were considered to be part of the same encounter, so the challenge of defeating the phoenix spider was rolled together into the CR9 of the Small initial stage.

Now I'm still not sure that's was the right way of going about it - giving each stage its own CR makes more sense to me.

[For any readers you have just joined us, the phoenix spider starts out Small, when killed it goes 'poof' and reforms in its Medium form. Kill that and it reforms Large, and kill that and it reforms Huge. After that, it reforms in smaller forms in reverse order until it gets back to Small, then dies if you kill it in that form.

E.g. a phoenix spider goes through the following progression of rebirths each time it is slain (unless killed with cold, in which case it stays dead):

Small -> Medium -> Large -> Huge -> Large -> Medium -> Small -> Dead]


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2010)

Echohawk said:


> A quick question on the phoenix spiders. The small variety are listed as CR9, but there aren't CRs listed for the medium to huge versions. Are they all supposed to be CR9 or is that an oversight?




That was intentional.  The CR is front-loaded to account for all iterations.   Essentially, we based the CR on the toughest version, and can think of the lesser incarnations as summoned creatures (and thus not affecting CR).


----------



## freyar (Mar 3, 2010)

Cleon's new Tentacle-parry looks about right.  

And Shade's reasoning is why we went with the single CR.  I think it makes the most sense.


----------



## Shade (Mar 4, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

We'll need to work on this...



> Nyraala golems also have a second form; they can break down into mounds of seemingly inactive fungal growth. These mounds cannot move except to assume their golem form.






> When an enemy is detected, nyraala golems reanimate their bodies in a gory implosion of mucous and flailing limbs, imposing a -3 penalty to their opponents' surprise rolls. Opponents who survive this first encounter may recognize the distinctive appearance of nyraala fungal mounds in the future (with an Intelligence check at a -2 penalty).






> Two, nyraala golems can break their bodies down into a peculiar mound of fungal growth, providing them with a very effective form of camouflage. It is in this form that they are usually set to guard the dwellings and treasure chambers of their illithid masters.


----------



## freyar (Mar 4, 2010)

This makes me think of mold wyrms.  Think we can borrow some from their passive state?


----------



## Shade (Mar 5, 2010)

Perhaps, or maybe something as simple as this (or somewhere between the two):

Unravel (Ex): Once per day as a standard action, a hangman golem can unravel its form to become a heap of tangled ropes that fills a 10-foot-by-10-foot area. While in this form, the rope golem cannot attack or move, but it gains fast healing 10. A hangman golem can reform into its humanoid appearance as a full-round action.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> This makes me think of mold wyrms.  Think we can borrow some from their passive state?




That would be my choice too.



> *Camouflage (Ex):* Since a mold wyrm looks like a normal patch of fungus when in its passive state, it takes a DC 30 Spot check to notice it before it attacks. Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the plant.
> 
> *Passive State (Su):* When resting, mold wyrms spread into a 60-foot-diameter film of mold and fungus that covers floor, walls, and ceiling of its habitat. This fungal carpet always covers a cairn of obsidian rocks. Converting between its passive form and natural worm form (which uses the rocks as teeth) takes a full round.
> 
> ...



We can use the Mold Wyrm's Camouflage write-up with a simple name-change, although we may want to modify the DC.*Camouflage (Ex):* Since a nyraala golem looks like a normal patch of fungus when in its passive state, it takes a DC 30 Spot check to notice it before it attacks. Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the construct. ​However we will need to modify the Passive State since the Golem can coalesce and attack so quickly it can surprise it's victims. That, and it's a size smaller than the Mold Wyrm, so would presumably cover a smaller area. I like the idea of the golem repairing itself while in its passive state.

Oh, and I don't like the name very much - maybe call it "Fungal Form"? Something like:*Fungal Form (Su):* A nyraala golem can take the shape of a 30-foot-diameter film of strange-looking fungus that covers floor, walls, and ceiling. It takes a full round for a nyraala golem to change into its fungal form, but it can transform from its fungal form into its normal form as a swift action, allowing the golem to move and/or attack in the same round.

In fungal form, the golem can take no actions, but it can sense its surroundings normally and repairs its injuries at a rapid rate. After four consecutive hours of lying in fungal form, a nyraala golem returns to full health, healed of any hit point or other temporary damage it had taken. 

A nyraala golem must spend at least 8 out of every 24 hours in fungal form. If it does not, it takes 3d8 points of damage each hour that it remains in its mobile pseudo-humanoid form.​


----------



## freyar (Mar 5, 2010)

That's pretty good, but I don't know about the hour requirement per day or the rapid healing.  That largely leaves the hangman golem version anyway.  I'll go with the consensus on the healing, though.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> That's pretty good, but I don't know about the hour requirement per day or the rapid healing.  That largely leaves the hangman golem version anyway.  I'll go with the consensus on the healing, though.




I'd have no objection to dropping the hour requirement per day, but I quite like the rapid healing in fungal form - although the wording may do with tweaking a bit. We could just make it fast healing X while in fungal form, for simplicities sake. Even 1 hit point per minute of fast healing would be enough to completely repair the golem in a few hours.


----------



## freyar (Mar 7, 2010)

There are two reasons I don't like rapid healing.  One, the original gives no hint of anything like that.  Two, constructs can't heal on their own unless they explicitly get fast healing, etc, so I think you need extra justification to add it to a construct.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm not opposed to the fast healing on principle, but I'm afraid it makes them better than the "supposed to be superior" brain golems.


----------



## freyar (Mar 8, 2010)

Heh.  That too.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> There are two reasons I don't like rapid healing.  One, the original gives no hint of anything like that.  Two, constructs can't heal on their own unless they explicitly get fast healing, etc, so I think you need extra justification to add it to a construct.




I've long preferred that golems that seem to basically be artificial lifeforms (such as Flesh Golems) to be able to heal their wounds. Besides, I don't recall any clear statement in official AD&D sources that Flesh Golems don't heal like living flesh and blood.

The Nyraala Golem appears to be made of living fungus rather than flesh-and-blood, so I would live it to have some autohealing ability.

What about the notion that it heals at the same rate as a living creature (1 hit per HD per day) when in Fungus Form?


----------



## freyar (Mar 9, 2010)

I still don't like it, but I'll let Shade decide.  I don't see any reason in the original text to treat them any differently than a standard golem with respect to healing.


----------



## Shade (Mar 10, 2010)

Yeah, I'd rather not break precedent.  If brain golems could do it, I'd be more likely to agree.  Feel free to do it with the "Cleon Special Edition".  

Constructs are clearly prevented from healing naturally and benefiting from healing spells:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Cannot heal damage on their own, but often can be repaired by exposing them to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s description for details) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat. A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.






			
				Cure Light Wounds spell description said:
			
		

> When laying your hand upon a *living* creature...


----------



## Cleon (Mar 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I'd rather not break precedent.  If brain golems could do it, I'd be more likely to agree.  Feel free to do it with the "Cleon Special Edition".




Well you know I'd do that anyway.

So for the non-C version shall we just combine the first paragraph and the first sentence of the second from Fungal Form?

*Fungal Form (Su):* A nyraala golem can take the shape of a 30-foot-diameter film of strange-looking fungus that covers floor, walls, and ceiling. In fungal form, the golem can take no actions, but it can sense its surroundings normally. It takes a full round for a nyraala golem to change into its fungal form, but it can transform from its fungal form into its normal form as a swift action, allowing the golem to move and/or attack in the same round.

Do we want to add the Camouflage write-up to Fungal Form, or keep it separate?



Shade said:


> Constructs are clearly prevented from healing naturally and benefiting from healing spells:




No need to quote the SRD, I have glanced through it once or twice...

What else do we have to decide on this critter anyway? Just DR, CR and flava by the looks of it.

I'm not sure it needs a Construction write-up if it's a secret Mind Flayer golem, but if we do give it one I'm thinking we could include a "Psionic Variant" for the Construction.


----------



## freyar (Mar 11, 2010)

Definitely add Camouflage to Fungal Form, I think.

You know, I think we have some commentary paragraph attached to the end of the tentacle parry that we might not want there in the end. 

Shouldn't it have 2 slam attacks?  

DR 10 seem reasonable here?


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2010)

Updated.

CR 7?  They are very comparable to a gold golem.

The brain golem has construction, so we might as well give 'em construction as well.



			
				Brain Golem Construction said:
			
		

> A brain golem's body is formed from the brains of intelligent creatures and topped off with a bud from a mind flayer community's elder brain to form the creature's "head". Its skin is a membrane secreted by the elder brain bud.
> 
> The golem costs 55,000 gp to create, which includes 1,000 gp for the construction of the body. Assembling the body requires a Heal check (DC 15).
> 
> ...




Also, here's the brain golem's psionic variant:



> Brain Golems and the Psionics Handbook
> If you are using the Psionics Handbook in your campaign, rather than being an arcane spellcaster, the creator of a brain golem can be a psion of 16th level or higher with access to the Inertial Armor feat, animal affinity, astral construct VII, domination, matter manipulation, and mind blast.


----------



## freyar (Mar 11, 2010)

CR 7 is fine.

As for construction: they're made of slightly different stuff and lower CR, so reduce CL and cost a bit?  Can probably drop feeblemind and polymorph as well.  The psionic variant is fine, too.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.




There's a holdover "necromantic golem" after "flavor text".



Shade said:


> CR 7?  They are very comparable to a gold golem.




Challenge Rating 7's what I was thinking of too, although I was using the CR7 Flesh Golem for a comparison.

Before I start talking about Construction, they're missing a weight.

A Flesh Golem is 8 foot and 500 pounds. Scale it up to 10 foot like a Nyraala Golem and it weighs about 1000 pounds. That'd suits me.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> CR 7 is fine.
> 
> As for construction: they're made of slightly different stuff and lower CR, so reduce CL and cost a bit?  Can probably drop feeblemind and polymorph as well.  The psionic variant is fine, too.




OK, the original text has the following relevant passages:



> "Nyraala golems are a melding of humanoid flesh, psionically active illithid mucous; and a special form of Underdark fungus that can be harvested only once every ten years."
> 
> "They do, however, provide a measure of status to their illithid owners as the cost in resources to create them is usually quite high and must be provided to a member the Creative Creed by their potential owner."



The bit about melding humanoid flesh makes me think we should swipe some of the Flesh Golem's construction text:



> The pieces of a flesh golem must come from normal human corpses that have not decayed significantly. Assembly requires a minimum of six different bodies—one for each limb, the torso (including head), and the brain. In some cases, more bodies may be necessary. Special unguents and bindings worth 500 gp are also required. Note that creating a flesh golem requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor.
> 
> Assembling the body requires a DC 13 Craft (leatherworking) check or a DC 13 Heal check.
> 
> CL 8th; Craft Construct, _animate dead, bull's strength, geas/quest, limited wish,_ caster must be at least 8th level; Price 20,000 gp; Cost 10,500 gp + 780 XP.



So how about something like the following as a basis. It's a bit tougher than a Flesh Golem in melee, so I'll up the price by 5,000 gp:A nyraala golem is created by melding together humanoid flesh, psionically active illithid mucous; and a special form of Underdark fungus. Assembly requires a minimum of *X* (six?) humanoid corpses that have not decayed significantly. In some cases, more bodies may be necessary. 

The golem costs *Y* [25000?] gp to create, which includes [1,000?] gp for rare unguents and the special Underdark fungus. Assembling the body requires a Heal check (DC  *Z *[13?]).

The creator must be 8th level and able to cast arcane spells. Completing the ritual drains *?* XP from the creator and requires _bull's strength, geas/quest, limited wish_, *and some other spells* [_animate dead_ for the "giving life to corpse flesh", _alter self_ for the Fungal Form?]. ​


----------



## Cleon (Mar 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Also, here's the brain golem's psionic variant:Brain Golems and the Psionics Handbook
> 
> 
> > If you are using the Psionics Handbook in your campaign, rather than being an arcane spellcaster, the creator of a brain golem can be a psion of 16th level or higher with access to the Inertial Armor feat, animal affinity, astral construct VII, domination, matter manipulation, and mind blast.




As for the psionic variant, _matter manipulation_ seems too high level, could we change it to _metamorphosis_? An _astral construct_ seem an appropriate power, I'd keep it _astral construct VII_ to match the level of the _limited wish_ in the arcane version, but we could make it _astral construct IV_ to match a Flesh Golem's 8th level caster requirement.

I think we'd best drop _domination _and _mind blast_ but keep _animal affinity_., which suggests another power or two should be added - maybe _psychofeedback _and _restore extremity_? (for Str-boosting and assembling the limb & body)

The only feat requirement I fancy is Craft Psionic Construct.


----------



## Shade (Mar 12, 2010)

Lookin' good.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> Lookin' good.  Updated.




Hmm, I'd prefer _astral construct VII_ so both Construction prereqs include a 7th level spell/power.

Also, I'm afraid I misquoted the cost. I was aiming to make the total price 5000 gp more that a Flesh Golem's 20k, or 25k. Don't think they need be that much more expensive that a Fleshie.

Thus, I'd prefer it:The golem costs 13,500 gp to create, which includes 1,000 gp for rare  unguents and the special Underdark fungi. Assembling the body requires a  DC 13 Heal check.

CL 8th; Craft Construct, _animate dead, bull's strength, geas/quest,  limited wish_, (or, if a psion, _animal affinity, astral construct VII,  metamorphosis, psychofeedback, restore extremity_); Price 25,000 gp; Cost 13,500 gp + 960 XP.
​Apart from those quibbles it looks good to go.


----------



## freyar (Mar 14, 2010)

Cleon's new construction text looks good to me!


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2010)

Updated, and moving on...

*Ceremorph, Tzakandi*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Conununity
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 8, Swim 12
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. ATTACKS: 3 or 1 by weapon
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4/1d4/1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spit acid, psionics
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Psionics
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
SIZE: M (7')
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XPVALUE: 1,400

Psionics Summary:
Level: 5
Dis/Sci/Dev: 2/3/10
Att/Def: II, PH, PsC/IF, TW, MB
Score: =Int
PSPs: 4d6+50 

Player's Option: #AT 1; MTHAC0 14; MAC 8

Psychokinesis-Sciences: detonate, telekinesis; Devotions: control light, inertial barrier, levitation, molecular agitation, molecular manipulation
Psychometabolism-Sciences: complete healing; Devotions: adrenaline control, body control, heightened senses, chameleon power, cell adjustment

A popular area of illithid research involves larval implantation in a variety of host species. Many humanoid races serve as good candidates for implantation, undergoing normal ceremorphosis and developing into typical mind £layers. Quite a few humanoid races reject larval implantation or become new forms known collectively as "flayer-kin." The tzakandi are one such breed, created by the ceremorphosis of lizard men. Tzakandi resemble lizard men with more intelligence in their eyes and more deeply green skin. Their heads are longer than those of normal lizard men, tapering at the top into two long tentacles that fall down their backs like writhing ponytails. Tzakandi are always on edge, ready to pounce on any threat to their illithid masters. In addition to being able to converse with the illithids mentally, tzakandi speak the language of lizard men.

Combat: Illithids value tzakandi ceremorphs for one reasonthey are extremely vicious. The illithids provide their prize enforcers with large training halls in which to hone their abilities with live captives to practice on. Preferring to work in pairs, one of the ceremorphs focuses its attention on spellcasters and psionicists while the other engages any fighters present. They attack with a claw/claw/bite routine. Intelligent enough to use their psionic powers effectively, tzakandi often activate sensory and defensive powers and use offensive powers to soften up the competition before engaging in melee. When set against powerful opposition, the ceremorphs employ hit-and-run tactics, with one on the offensive as the other seeks cover. If they are acting as bodyguards, however, they do not retreat until the threat has passed or until they are dead. Once per day, each tzakandi may spit a glob of acid, a form of the substance illithid tentacles exude when burrowing through the cranium, that causes 2d8 points of damage (save vs. poison for half) on contact before becoming inert. Their aim is good enough to allow them to hit the eyes of their opponents on an attack roll at least three points better than needed. If successful, the victim not only suffers damage but is also effectively blinded for 1d6 rounds.

Habitat/Society: Tzakandi are valued as personal guards in illithid communities but are still treated as inferiors. Still, they are happy with their lot in life. Tzakandi are housed near their master's chambers, they are kept well fed, and they frequently are called on to do what they love most: fight and kill.

Ecology: The larvae chosen for lizard man implantation are usually larger and more aggressive than most, but they seem less intelligent according to some inscrutable illifhid standard. Normally these specimens would be devoured by the elder brain, as they are unsuitable for regular implantation. They bond to the first illithid they see after the completion of their ceremorphosis and serve it without question or hesitation.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #255 (1999).


----------



## freyar (Mar 15, 2010)

Well, my first question was going to be if these were different than the "half-illithid lizardfolk" samples from one of the later MMs, but I think th eacid spit is a bit different.  Let's go for it.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, my first question was going to be if these were different than the "half-illithid lizardfolk" samples from one of the later MMs, but I think th eacid spit is a bit different.  Let's go for it.




The 3E Half-Illithid Lizardfolk? I only have a vague recollection of it, but I think it was a weaker creature, with less than the 6 HD this beastie has. I guess the Tzakandi could be a half-illithid lizardfolk with a few class levels, but as you say it would miss the acid spit.

Besides, I'd prefer to make this a straight monster.

So, these will obviously be Medium-sized and have the (Psionic, Reptilian) subtypes, but what type - Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid seem most likely.

I prefer Monstrous Humanoid, since they have a bunch of psionic powers and are described as potent combatants (=> good BAB?). The Monstrous Humanoid's good Will save would also suit them, methinks.

They're the same size as regular lizardmen, so may have similar physical stats, but are considerable smarter - Very intelligent (11-12) instead of low (5-7). The 3E Lizardfolk is Int 9, so we could just boost all its mental stats by two apiece.

It's also got an AC one point better than a regular AD&D lizardman - are they more agile (+2 Dex) or have tougher scales? (more NA).

Since they're "always on edge, ready to pounce" I wouldn't mind upping their Dexterity, and maybe give them Improved Initiative when we get around to the feats.

That would make them:

Str 13, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 12

We might want to tweak some of those scores upwards depending on what psionic powers we pick for them.


----------



## Shade (Mar 16, 2010)

I'd lean toward aberration, since they're mutants with illithid bits.

The ability scores look good, maybe even a tad low.  We can try 'em out and always increase them if needed.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd lean toward aberration, since they're mutants with illithid bits.
> 
> The ability scores look good, maybe even a tad low.  We can try 'em out and always increase them if needed.




Oh, fiddlesticks! I was going to mention Aberration as another possibility, but never got around to it.

Anyhows, I prefer the good Reflex and BAB of the Monstrous Humanoid, but I'll go along with Aberration if it's a deal-breaker.

Another thing I wondered about was nudging their Strength up. Their 1-4 claw attack is almost twice the damage of a standard AD&D Lizard Man's 1-2 claw, so they could be stronger and have big talons.

Maybe Strength 15?

Anyhow, shall we talk about their psionic powers?

Are we going to give them psionic power points & manifestation levels (presumably as a 6th level Psion, since it has far too many of them to learn as a mid-low level Psychic Warrior) or make them all Psi-Like Abilities?

It might help if we work out some equivalents for their listed psionic devotions:

*Psychokinesis*
-*Sciences*:
--detonate - _energy burst?_
--telekinesis - _telekinetic force_ OR _telekinetic thrust?_
-*Devotions*:
--control light - _control light_
--inertial barrier - that's 4th level, swap to _biofeedback_ OR _inertial armour_?
--levitation - _psionic levitate_
--molecular agitation - _matter agitation_
--molecular  manipulation - this is 8th level in 3E, better drop or change it!

*Psychometabolism*
-*Sciences*:
--complete healing - change to _body adjustment_ OR _hostile empathic transfer_?
-*Devotions*:
--adrenaline  control - it's like _haste_, what's the 3E psionic equivalent?
--body control - _body purification_ OR _body equilibrium_?
--heightened senses - _danger sense_ OR _ubiquitous vision_?
--chameleon power - _chameleon_
--cell  adjustment - wasn't this like 3E's _specific energy adaptation_?

Anyhow, that's 13 powers, some of 3rd level, so a 6th level Psion seems to be a fair baseline.


----------



## Shade (Mar 16, 2010)

We've compiled some psionic power conversions over time in this thread.  Some of those might be found there.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> We've compiled some psionic power conversions over time in this thread.  Some of those might be found there.




Ta Shade. I'll have a look - if I can find the time!


----------



## freyar (Mar 17, 2010)

I'd say it needs to be aberration, but that's just me...

Make them psi-like, I think, since that's how illithids work, right?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Ta Shade. I'll have a look - if I can find the time!




Well the powers in that list would match as follows to the Tzakandi's listed psionic abilities:

--detonate - None listed
--telekinesis - _telekinetic force_(3rd level)
--control light - _control light_(1st level)
--inertial barrier - _inertial barrier_(4th level)
--levitation - _psionic levitate_(2nd level)
--molecular agitation - _matter agitation _(1st level)
--molecular  manipulation - _matter manipulation_ (8th level)
 ----
--complete healing - None listed
--adrenaline  control - _psychofeedback  _(5th level)
--body control - _adapt body_(5th level)
--heightened senses - None listed
--chameleon power - _chameleon_(2nd level Egoist)
--cell  adjustment - _body adjustment  _(3rd level)

Hmm, I don't much like the 4th, 5th and 8th level powers listed. I'd rather keep them within the level a 6th level Psion would be able to use.

I'll assume a Tzakandi uses psionics as a 6th level Psion (Egoist) with 13 powers (minimum 5 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd). I made it an Egoist so it can get _chameleon. _We'd better up its Intelligence, since that's the controlling ability for a Psion it needs at least Int 13 to use 3rd level powers.

Make it Intelligence 14-15 instead of 11?

A 14-15 Int would give a 6th level Psion an extra 6 psionic power points, for a total of 41 power points per day.

For the "default power selection", I'd give it something like:

1st - _control light, defensive __precognition, __matter agitation_, _offensive precognition, thicken skin*_
2nd - _biofeedback_, _chameleon_*, _psionic levitate, __mental disruption_
3rd - _telekinetic force, body adjustment_, _energy burst, __telekinetic force_

The above selection was picked to imitate the powers of the original, with the exceptions of _thicken skin_ and _mental disruption._ Those with an asterist * are Egoist only powers.

What reckons thee?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd say it needs to be aberration, but that's just me...
> 
> Make them psi-like, I think, since that's how illithids work, right?




Yes, I suspect I'll probably change my mind and make them psi-like eventually, if only so the DM doesn't have to keep track of their power points.

Still, I think it'd be useful basing the selection on a 6th level Psion, so we can keep the number & level of powers reasonable. I quite like my proposed selection:

1st - _control light, defensive __precognition, __matter  agitation_, _offensive precognition, thicken skin_
2nd - _biofeedback_, _chameleon_, _psionic levitate, __mental  disruption_
3rd - _body adjustment_, _energy burst, __telekinetic force, __telekinetic thrust_


----------



## Shade (Mar 17, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I boosted Cha rather than Int, since Cha controls psi-like abilities.

Also, let's give 'em spell-like psionics, like non-psionic illithids, and use an underbar for the true psionic version.

For the PLAs, Cleon has proposed:



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> 1st - control light, defensive precognition, matter agitation, offensive precognition, thicken skin
> 2nd - biofeedback, chameleon, psionic levitate, mental disruption
> 3rd - telekinetic force, body adjustment, energy burst, telekinetic force




Psionic illithids are 9th-level psions, so I don't think we'll eclipse their masters with these proposed abilities.  3/day for the 1st-level powers, 1/day for the 3rd, and split the 2nd between the two usage levels?

Once we figure that out, we can find non-psionic equivalents.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Oh blast, I put in _telekinetic force_s in twice in the proposed  powers. I wanted one of them to be _telekinetic thrust_. I'd better  edit it.



Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I boosted Cha rather than Int, since Cha controls psi-like abilities.




If we go for Psi-Like we need to switch the boosted stat to Charisma.  Indeed, I prefer them that way since it means we can keep their  Intelligence to the original score.



Shade said:


> Also, let's give 'em spell-like psionics, like non-psionic illithids,  and use an underbar for the true psionic version.
> 
> For the PLAs, Cleon has proposed:
> 
> ...




I fancy giving it a few 1st level powers as at-wills.

Maybe:

at-will: _control light, defensive precognition, thicken skin_
3/day: _biofeedback, chameleon, psionic levitate, matter agitation, offensive  precognition_
1/day: _mental disruption, body adjustment, energy burst, telekinetic force, telekinetic thrust_

As for the spell equivalents, maybe something like.

at-will: _light, resistance, mage hand_
3/day: _barkskin, __blur, __heat metal, true strike, levitate_
1/day: _fear, vampiric touch, fireball, telekinesis_


----------



## Shade (Mar 18, 2010)

That looks pretty reasonable to me.


----------



## freyar (Mar 19, 2010)

Same here.  Looking good!


----------



## Cleon (Mar 20, 2010)

Great!

Sounds like we're agreed on the psionics, so shall we move on to skills?

A Tzakandi has 18SP due to its higher HD and Int.

I'd start by giving it the same skills as a standard 3E Lizardfolk - 1 rank in Swim and 2 in Balance & Jump, plus a +4 racial bonus on all three skills.

Second, it'll need Concentration and Psicraft to use its psionics, say 5 points in each.

That leaves 3 skill points, which I would put in Autohypnosis since their psionic powers seem to have a "Egoist" theme going (it'll also get a +2 bonus from synergy with Concentration).

Autohypnosis *3*, Balance *2*, Concentration *5*, Jump *2*, Psicraft *5*, Swim *1
*
Add in the stats and the proposed racial bonus to Balance, Jump & Swim and it becomes:

*Skills:* Autohypnosis +6, Balance +7, Concentration +6, Jump +8,  Psicraft +5, Swim +7

As for feats, I reckon they should have Multiattack like a Lizardfolk plus a couple of Psionic Feats - maybe Psionic Fist and either Psionic Body or Speed of Thought?


----------



## freyar (Mar 22, 2010)

Wis isn't high enough for Speed of Thought, but the rest looks pretty good!


----------



## Shade (Mar 22, 2010)

That all sounds good.  Updated.

Suggested skills and feats for the nonpsionic version?  Maybe just take the Autohypnosis ranks and pop 'em into Balance or Jump, and change Psicraft to Spellcraft?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> That all sounds good.  Updated.
> 
> Suggested skills and feats for the nonpsionic version?  Maybe just take the Autohypnosis ranks and pop 'em into Balance or Jump, and change Psicraft to Spellcraft?




Well there's no rule saying you can't give a nonpsionic creature Autohypnosis, as far as I'm aware, but I'd be just as happy switching them to something else.

Hmm, since they've already got decent mods in Balance and Jump, how about 3 points in Tumbling for Tumbling +4?

EDIT: As for the non-psionic feats, the closest match to Psionic Body is plain old Toughness, although that's pretty dull. I'd like Endurance or Great Fortitude better.

How about Empower Spell-Like Ability for either _heat metal_ or _magic missile_ for the "offensive" feat?


----------



## freyar (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm fine with Tumble.  Let's go with Endurance and Empower (magic missile) (I think the PLAs and SLAs need to be written in, though).


----------



## Shade (Mar 23, 2010)

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Mar 24, 2010)

Standard treasure?  Or half, since they're lower-class citizens?

CR 4 or maybe a weak 5?


----------



## Shade (Mar 24, 2010)

Half-standard and CR 5 seem appropriate.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Half-standard and CR 5 seem appropriate.




Yes, that seems reasonable.

Do we want to give them a Level Adjustment as well?

If we do it'll be something pretty high (+4 or +5?) since they've got good stats, SR and SLA/PLAs.


----------



## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

Yeah, it looks like a +5 by my count.

I noticed we forgot this important ability:



> Once per day, each tzakandi may spit a glob of acid, a form of the substance illithid tentacles exude when burrowing through the cranium, that causes 2d8 points of damage (save vs. poison for half) on contact before becoming inert. Their aim is good enough to allow them to hit the eyes of their opponents on an attack roll at least three points better than needed. If successful, the victim not only suffers damage but is also effectively blinded for 1d6 rounds.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, it looks like a +5 by my count.




That seems a trifle high but I can live with it. LA is pretty much a black art, anyhow.

As for the acid spit, it looks like it could do with being simplified for the 3E version.

1/day ranged touch doing 2d8 acid, with a Reflex save to avoid 1d6 rounds of blindness?


----------



## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

How about 1/day ranged touch for 2d8 acid with 1d6 rounds blindness on a critical hit?


----------



## Shade (Mar 29, 2010)

How's this?

Acid Spit (Ex): Once per day, a tzakandi can spit a ball of caustic saliva with a range of 30 feet, as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals 2d8 points of acid damage on a successful hit. On a successful critical hit, the target is also blinded for 1d6 rounds unless it succeeds on a DC X Fortitude save. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

I don't really like the combination of an attack roll and a save, which is why I suggested the critical hit mechanic.  But if we do one or the other, I guess I'd go with Cleon's suggestion of just the save (Fort or Ref is fine).


----------



## Cleon (Mar 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> I don't really like the combination of an attack roll and a save, which is why I suggested the critical hit mechanic.  But if we do one or the other, I guess I'd go with Cleon's suggestion of just the save (Fort or Ref is fine).




Well how close do we want to be to the original model? If we wanted a close match to the original it'd be a ranged touch for 2d8 poison damage (Fort save to half) which also blinds on a critical if the Fort save is missed (and it probably does double damage like most crits).

That'd be something like:

*Acid Spit (Ex) #1:* Once per day, a tzakandi can spit a ball of poisonous, corrosive saliva with a range of 30 feet, as a ranged touch attack. This attack  deals 2d8 points of acid damage on a successful hit (DC X Fort save for half damage). On a successful  critical hit, the target takes double damage, as per a normal critical hit, and in addition is blinded for 1d6 rounds if it fails the Fortitude save. The save DC is Constitution-based.     

That's a bit fiddly but is a close match to the original attack. The "just a save" version would be:

*Acid Spit (Ex) #2:* Once per day, a tzakandi can spit a ball of caustic saliva with a range of 30 feet, as a ranged touch attack. On a successful hit, the target takes 2d8 points of acid damage and must succeed at a DC X saving throw or be blinded for 1d6 rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.     

Or we've got the "crit & save" version proposed by Shade:

*Acid Spit (Ex) #3:* Once per day, a tzakandi can spit a ball of caustic  saliva with a range of 30 feet, as a ranged touch attack. This attack  deals 2d8 points of acid damage on a successful hit. On a successful  critical hit, the target is also blinded for 1d6 rounds unless it  succeeds on a DC X Fortitude save. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Of the three I think I prefer #2, since (a) it's simpler and (b) is the most likely to be effective. These things only get one use of this attack, so I think it should count!


----------



## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

Yeah, #2 is best.

Updated.   Finished?


----------



## freyar (Mar 31, 2010)

I think so.


----------



## Shade (Apr 1, 2010)

Here's the other ceremorph from that article:

*Ceremorph, Mozgriken*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Community
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore (Brain Fluids)
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 19
NO. ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Psionics
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Psionics
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
SIZE: S (3')
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7)
XPVALUE: 650

Psionics Summary:
Level: 5
Dis/Sci/Dev: 2/2/9
Att/Def: EW, MT/MB, TC
Score: =Int
PSPs: 3d6+30 

Player's Option: #AT 1; MTHAC0 14; MAC 8

Telepathy-Sciences: probe; Devotions: conceal thoughts, invisibility, sight link, life detection, ESP
Psychometabolism-Sciences: metamorphosis, shadow form (bonus power, does not take up a slot); Devotions: cannibalize, chameleon, heightened senses, body weaponry

The hideous, diminutive ceremorphs known as mozgriken are the targets of constant scorn despite their usefulness. Although they can often infiltrate an enemy's camp, they are treated poorly because of their origin: they were once deep gnomes. Mozgriken are as small as their gnomish precursors. They have hunched backs and twisted limbs. Their heads resemble those of normal mind flayers save that they have only three tendrils and no mouth. This is a serious deformity to illithids, as mozgriken cannot ingest brains in the normal manner. Their skin is pitch black, and their tendrils appear to be nothing more than wisps of shadow, fading into nothingness at the tips. The mozgriken are tied to the Demiplane of Shadow and draw their formidable stealth from it.

Combat: Made meek by the harsh rule of their creators, mozgriken avoid combat whenever possible. They use their psionic powers of shadow form, invisibility, chameleon, and metamorphosis to hide among their foes and glean bits of vital information through the use of their other abilities, most notably sight link and probe. They are sent into enemy encampments for any number of tasks, such as estimating the size and strength of the foe, discovering their battle plans, and estimating the treasure that can be captured. If detected, mozgriken do everything in their power to escape, but if pressed into battle they can use their psionic attack forms and the body weaponry power. Even when they gain momentary advantage over their foes, mozgriken are more likely to seek escape over anything else.

Habitat/Society: Because of the hatred between illithids and svirfneblin, mozgriken find little respect within an illithid community. Compounding the bias against them is the fact that they've only three tentacles, a sign of imperfection, and can draw sustenance only from the fluids of the brain. They've eventually come to accept illithid rule because they know there is no other race in the Underdark that would take them in. Even if they all united, they would be too weak to survive.

Ecology: Gnomish body chemistry normally rejects attempts at larval implantation, often killing both illithid larva and the potential host. However, the Creative Breed has discovered that by using the very rare psychoportive science, summon planar energy (see The Will and The Way) to channel the essence of the Derniplane of Shadow along with a complicated process of psychic surgery and various psionic enhancement techniques, a gnome implantation can be stabilized and the ceremorph can gain a measure of power directly from the demiplane. The larvae chosen for gnomish implantation are usually the smallest, most timid specimens in the brine pool, fodder for the elder brain. Many gnomes and larvae die during the ceremorphosis, but since both are seen as inferior and expendable to the Illithid Empire, mozgriken transformation is seen as a nice alternative to simple extermination due to the effective servants the process creates.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #255 (1999).


----------



## freyar (Apr 1, 2010)

Sweet!  Modify mind flayer physical stats by svirfneblin racial modifiers?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sweet!  Modify mind flayer physical stats by svirfneblin racial modifiers?




Sounds a good start. 

These fellows are pretty close to being "half strength" illithids with  powers focusing on stealth and infiltration.

Do we want to give them any other traits of an SRD Svirfneblin? Their 120 foot darkvision and low-light vision would seem a good fit, as does their stonecunning, continuous _nondetection_ power, dodge bonus to AC and racial bonus to Hide.

I'm also wondering whether we should do something with their "direct link" to the shadow plane beyond just giving them shadow form as a bonus psionic power like the original.

Maybe just give them a Shadow Mastiff's Shadow Blend power?


----------



## freyar (Apr 5, 2010)

I think the 120ft darkvision, low-light vision, and possibly nondetection.  I think the stonecutting, dodge bonus, and Hide bonus are more cultural things (though it seems like mozgriken should have a Hide bonus anyway).  Shadow blend is a definite maybe, depending on whether we think that's too far from the source material.

Anyone want to convert those psionic powers?  SLA/PLAs again?


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

The psionics and psi-like abilities are currently just placeholders copied from the previous ceremorph.

I don't mind shadow blend, although a straight up racial bonus to Hide, which improves in areas of shadowy illumination, would probably work too.


----------



## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

Hmmm, I think I like the improved Hide bonus slightly better, but I don't have a strong opinion.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think the 120ft darkvision, low-light vision,  and possibly nondetection.  I think the stonecutting, dodge bonus, and  Hide bonus are more cultural things (though it seems like mozgriken  should have a Hide bonus anyway).  Shadow blend is a definite maybe,  depending on whether we think that's too far from the source material.
> 
> Anyone want to convert those psionic powers?  SLA/PLAs again?






Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> The psionics and psi-like abilities are currently just placeholders copied from the previous ceremorph.
> 
> I don't mind shadow blend, although a straight up racial bonus to Hide, which improves in areas of shadowy illumination, would probably work too.




Upon reflection, Shadow Blend seems too much. I think I'd just give it a hefty bonus to Hide checks when in darkness or shadow, plus a racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently. Since these critters hide from other underdark beings I think we'd better make their shadowy sneakiness be effective against _darkvision_.

Looking at the current placeholder I can see one obvious error - these fellows have _three_ tentacles, not four.

So, how about the following?

*Skills:* A mozgriken has a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks.

*Shadow Cloak (Ex):* Due to its connection to the Plane of Shadows, a mozgriken gains concealment against creatures with darkvision of 90 ft. or less whenever it is in an area of shadowy illumination or darkness, allowing the mozgriken to make Hide checks against such creatures. Furthermore, it gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Hide checks against creatures without  darkvision whenever it is in an area of shadowy illumination.

As for the SLAs and PSAs, something like the following could cover it:

*Spell-Like Abilities:*
At-will - _darkness_, _detect thoughts_
3/day - _magic fang_, _misdirection_, _owl's wisdom_, _read thoughts_ 
1/day - _clairaudience/clairvoyance, __invisibility_, _locate creature__, __polymorph_

*Psionics:*
At-will - _chameleon_, _detect thoughts_
3/day - _conceal thoughts_ (self only), _escape detection_, _forced sense link_, _metaphysical claw_, _read thoughts_
1/day - _clairvoyant vision_, _metamorphosis_, _shadow body_


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Hmm...the darkvision bit seems unnecessary.  Isn't a Hide check equally effective against a creature with standard vision, darkvision, or low-light vision?

If you're looking to allow them to effectively "hide in plain sight", let's just give 'em hide in plain sight.  

The SLAs and PSAs look good!


----------



## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

Agreed with Shade on both points!


----------



## Cleon (Apr 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Hmm...the darkvision bit seems unnecessary.  Isn't a Hide check equally effective against a creature with standard vision, darkvision, or low-light vision?




Darkvision overcomes the concealment normally granted by shadowy conditions, so the RAW says you can't "Hide in Shadows" from a creature with darkvision, assuming you're within its darkvision range. You need some non-shadowy concealment or cover to be allowed a Hide check against darkvision (mist, stacks of boxes, bushes, "Hide in Plain Sight" ability, et  cetera).

We could give them some kind of Hide in Plain Sight ability, but I'd rather it be shadow/darkness dependent.


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2010)

Let's just stick with Hide in Plain Sight, like the uber-shadow entity (no, not me ), the Shadowdancer.


----------



## freyar (Apr 7, 2010)

Hide in Plain Sight works.  Makes them tricksy spies.


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2010)

Updated.

Caster/manfiester level 6th?



> Made meek by the harsh rule of their creators, mozgriken avoid combat whenever possible. They use their psionic powers of shadow form, invisibility, chameleon, and metamorphosis to hide among their foes and glean bits of vital information through the use of their other abilities, most notably sight link and probe. They are sent into enemy encampments for any number of tasks, such as estimating the size and strength of the foe, discovering their battle plans, and estimating the treasure that can be captured. If detected, mozgriken do everything in their power to escape, but if pressed into battle they can use their psionic attack forms and the body weaponry power. Even when they gain momentary advantage over their foes, mozgriken are more likely to seek escape over anything else.




Skills: 6 at 7 ranks
Concentration Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot?

Feats: 2
Stealthy?  Eyes In The Back Of Your Head/Speed Of Thought (for the psionic variant)?


----------



## freyar (Apr 9, 2010)

CL/ML 6 is good.

I like the skills, I think.  And those feats make a lot of sense.


----------



## Shade (Apr 9, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: x

Level Adjustment: +x

Mozgriken speak Gnome and Undercommon?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Caster/manfiester level 6th?
> 
> ...




Those skills look very apt.

I'd prefer to give them Eyes in the Back of Your Head *and* Speed of Thought. They've already got good Hide/MS modifiers without Stealthy,  if we decide they need to be even sneakier we can just boost their racial bonuses.

Of course, if we do have a "Psionic Variant" with Eyes in the Back of Your Head and Speed of Thought we'd need a "Non-Psionic Variant" with something different to Speed of Though - maybe Run?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: x
> 
> ...




Challenge Rating 3?
_ They may be sneaky but aren't much good in a fight.
_
Treasure: None?
_The original didn't have any wealth (presumably its Illithid masters kept all the goodies)_

Level Adjustment: +5?
_They've got a lot of exploitable abilities._

As for their languages I'd add Common to that list, since svirfneblins can speak that too.


----------



## freyar (Apr 11, 2010)

Run is fine if we want to change that feat.  Other suggestions sound fine, too.


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

Updated.   Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.   Finished?




Its initiative should be +3 from its Dex 16.

Its touch AC should be 14 (+1 size, +3 Dex) and its flat-footed AC 13 (+1 size, +2 NA)

Apart from that it looks good to go.


----------



## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

And it's all set!


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2010)

*Gu’Armori*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVE: 12.
HIT DICE: 1 hp (but attacks as 12 HD monster)
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 fists or 2 sword blows
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-1 6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 5%
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (6. tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VIII/5100

Gu’armori (singular: gu’armoru) are animated suits of armor constructed through the combined efforts of a magicuser of at least 16th level and a cleric of at least 11th level. The creation of a single gu’armoru requires the fabrication of a suit of adamantite-alloyed armor, the life energy of a fallen fighter of at least 12th level, and the casting of the following spells: animate dead, animate object, enchant an item, geas, magic jar, and raise dead. The exact procedure is performed according to a jealously guarded arcane ritual-only three written copies of the instructions are known to exist. The process takes at least four months to complete, at a cost of 35,000 gp for each gu’armoru.

Gu’armori may be encountered stationed at entrances, in treasure rooms, or in the company of their creators as personal guards. They will attack anyone who approaches within 30’ of the area or thing they have been instructed to guard, unless a special command word known only to the creators is spoken. They will never venture more than 90’ from that which they have been instructed to protect. The original purpose of the gu’armoru cannot be altered by any means, magical or otherwise, except by one or both of the creators.

The “life force” which powers a gu’armoru qualifies the creature to be classified as a special type of undead entity, and any cleric has a 2% -per-level chance of recognizing one as such. If recognition occurs, a cleric of 11th level or higher may (if he chooses to make the attempt) affect a gu’armoru by rolling a 20 on d20, thereby “turning” the energy-spark which animates the gu’armoru and resulting in the explosion of the armor, with effects as described below.

Gu’armori are formidable offensively, able to inflict 2-16 hp damage on a hit with either of their armored fists (some are outfitted with two-handed swords, but number of attacks and damage per attack are the same in either case), and are extremely difficult to hit in return. A successful physical attack requires a weapon of +3 power or better. Gu’armori are immune to mental attack forms, and are well shielded against other magical attacks. In addition to their 5% magic resistance, they are also allowed saving throws against all spells capable of causing physical damage or any sort of physical effect (such as a levitate spell), .including those against which a save is not normally allowed (such as magic missile) and those for which a saving throw normally only halves damage (such as dragon breath). In any case, a successful saving throw indicates that the gu’armoru suffered no damage or other adverse effect.

However, if a gu’armoru takes even 1 hit point of damage or is physically affected (i.e., moved) against its “will”, the result is spectacular and potentially deadly. This seemingly insignificant amount of “damage” disrupts the delicate balance of dweomers which maintain the gu’armoru, and it will instantly blow apart, sending shards of armor in all directions. Any characters or creatures within 5’ of the explosion automatically take 12 hp damage apiece, and anyone from 5’ + to 30’ away must save versus wands to avoid taking 2-12 hp damage.

Gu’armori may be found guarding any type of treasure, and on occasion may be “on guard” protecting nothing at all, their creators having died or been forced to abandon them without having a chance to alter their instructions.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #101 (1985).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

This doesn't seem a very effective guardian. All that effort by high-level characters and you get a creature with 1 hit point that explodes for a whole 12 points of damage.

We could either leave it as is but drastically reduce the Construction/Creation requirements to better match its limited effectiveness or boost its effectiveness in combat and top it off with a much, much nastier death throes.

Which would you prefer?


----------



## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

I agree.  There's a kernel of a good creature in there, but it needs work.



> However, if a gu’armoru takes even 1 hit point of damage or is *physically affected (i.e., moved) against its “will”, *the result is spectacular and potentially deadly. This seemingly insignificant amount of “damage” disrupts the delicate balance of dweomers which maintain the gu’armoru, and it will instantly blow apart, sending shards of armor in all directions.




I'd suggest we remove the "taking damage" portion of the above, leaving only spells that forcibly affect its movement and/or task to trigger the death throes.

In other words, give it immunity to magic, and make spells and effects like plane shift or a bar-lgura's abduction ability trigger the death throes.

Alternatively, we could have it explode upon taking damage, but reform the next round.  Rinse and repeat.   A bit like the old Harryhausen skeletons.  

Regardless of the approach, I think they should have tomb-tainted characteristics and probably martial memories (fighter BAB and maybe some fighter bonus feats).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> I agree.  There's a kernel of a good creature in there, but it needs work.
> 
> I'd suggest we remove the "taking damage" portion of the above, leaving only spells that forcibly affect its movement and/or task to trigger the death throes.
> 
> ...




I would rather keep the "single explosion" bit but make it harder to achieve. Don't much care for immunity to magic for it.

Something like:

*Explosive Instability (Ex):* Whenever a gu'armori takes damage or fails a saving throw against a spell or spell-like ability it must make a Fortitude save (DC equals spell DC or hit points of damage taken) or it will explode, destroying the gu'armori and doing [*LOTS*] of damage to everything with a [BIG] ft. radius burst (DC *X* Reflex save for half damage). The save DC is Strength-based.

Then I'd give it a really formidable DR and SR, so its hard to actually inflict hit points of damage and spell saves on it, plus some kind of "entitled to save vs all spells" ability.

Maybe DR 20/epic and SR30?

*Shrug Off Magic (Su):* A gu'armori makes a saving throw against any spell or spell-like ability that affects it, even spells that normally do not allow saving throws. Furthermore, it uses its Will save when making saving throws against all spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural powers.



Shade said:


> Regardless of the approach, I think they should have tomb-tainted  characteristics and probably martial memories (fighter BAB and maybe  some fighter bonus feats).




Yes, that makes sense.


----------



## freyar (Apr 15, 2010)

Hmmm, this might work...


----------



## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

Yeah, we might be able to make this work.

Let's try to get the basics down.

12 HD or more?  The similar helmed horror is 13 HD, and the battle horror is 20 HD.

Helmed Horror: Str 20, Dex 15, Con -, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 16
Battle Horror:  Str 26, Dex 15, Con -, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 16


----------



## Cleon (Apr 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, we might be able to make this work.
> 
> Let's try to get the basics down.
> 
> ...




I'd stick to 12 Hit Dice and modify the Helmed Horror's stats. They're mindless so we can drop Int to 0, but I'd leave the Wis at 16, since these are guardians. The Charisma ought to be a lot lower - maybe 5-8 or so? They don't need Cha, since they don't have any Su powers, but I feel they should have more presence that a Cha 1 Zombie or Skeleton.

Gu'armori: Str 20, Dex 15, Con -, Int -, Wis 16, Cha 5 ?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 16, 2010)

Cleon said:


> *Shrug Off Magic (Su):* A gu'armori makes a saving throw against any spell or spell-like ability that affects it, even spells that normally do not allow saving throws. Furthermore, it uses its Will save when making saving throws against all spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural powers.




This first draft didn't come out right. I was wanting it to say something to the effect of "use Will save if no save type is stated" in that last sentence. It should also have the "no damage if save made" added.

Revising...

*Shrug Off Magic (Su):* A gu'armori can attempt a saving throw whenever it is affected by a spell, spell-like ability or  supernatural power, even if the effect normally does not allow a saving throw. The gu'armori uses its Will save if the effect does not specify a saving throw type. If the gu'armori successfully saves it is completely unaffected by the effect, taking no damage.


----------



## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

Sounds good.

Added to Homebrews.

I toned down the slam damage, as 2d8 was way too much for a Medium construct.

I propose we give it fighter bonus feats.  A 12th-level fighter gains 7 bonus feats.   I'd propose giving it Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization at the very least.


----------



## freyar (Apr 17, 2010)

I'll agree to the bonus feats; we can just add them to martial memories.  Give it also Imp Init, Improved Critical, and Dodge (or maybe Power Attack for the last one).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> ...




That all sounds good.

Since it's a fighter-type creature how about we give it Wield Oversize Weapon and a Large Heavy Flail or Large Greatclub, then it can do 2d8 bludgeoning with its attacks.

Now what are we doing about its Explosive Instability?

Oh, and it still needs Spell Resistance.


----------



## freyar (Apr 17, 2010)

Err, why do we want to give it Wield Oversized Weapon other than a desire just to boost damage output?  I don't get that vibe on these particularly.  Besides, I like the greatsword. 

For the explosion, I like your approach:



> Explosive Instability (Ex): Whenever a gu'armori takes damage or fails a saving throw against a spell or spell-like ability it must make a Fortitude save (DC equals spell DC or hit points of damage taken) or it will explode, destroying the gu'armori and doing [LOTS] of damage to everything with a [BIG] ft. radius burst (DC X Reflex save for half damage). The save DC is Strength-based.




I'd actually think the DC should be 10+hp damage taken.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 18, 2010)

freyar said:


> Err, why do we want to give it Wield Oversized Weapon other than a desire just to boost damage output?  I don't get that vibe on these particularly.  Besides, I like the greatsword.




But I want it to do 2d8 damage like the original does.

We could meet halfway and make it an Oversized Greatsword.



freyar said:


> For the explosion, I like your approach:
> 
> I'd actually think the DC should be 10+hp damage taken.




I'd be OK increasing the DC.

How much damage should it do and over what area? It should certainly be more than the measly 12 hit points of the original. 12 dice seems more appropriate. I'm thinking something like a _widened fireball_ - 12d6 damage in a 40 ft. burst. Shouldn't be fire though, since its a mixture of unleashed magical energy and razor shards of metal. Half force, half slashing?

Revising...

*Explosive Instability (Ex):* Whenever a gu'armori takes damage or fails a  saving throw against a spell, spell-like ability or supernatural attack it must make a  Fortitude save (DC equals 10 plus the hit points of damage taken or the DC of the spell or power, whichever is higher) or it  will explode, destroying the gu'armori and doing 12d6 damage (half slashing and half force) to  everything with a 40 ft. radius burst (DC 21 Reflex save for half  damage). The save DC is Strength-based.

I'd consider increasing the damage to 12d8 and/or making one dice per Hit Dice of the gu'armori.


----------



## freyar (Apr 18, 2010)

Well, I guess I don't have a strong opinion on the oversized weapon, as long as it's a greatsword. 

12d6 seems ok if it's half-slashing and half-force.  That'd be better than a fireball from a similar CR sorc/wiz.  And I think we can let the DM figure out how to advance it, like usual, right?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, I guess I don't have a strong opinion on the oversized weapon, as long as it's a greatsword.




I just fancied making the weapon 2d8 damage like the original. It could be a Large Halberd, Heavy Flail or Greataxe just as easily.

But never let it be said I never oblige. Large greatsword it is. It's an extra 1.5 points of average damage, so I guess I can't complain.

*Full Attack:* Greatsword +17/+12/+7 melee (3d6+7/19-20) or 2 slams +17  melee (1d10+6)

Is this ridiculously oversized sword an ordinary weapon, masterwork or magic? A 12th level fighter would normally have a fairly nasty magic weapon, so I think our new friend needs one too.



freyar said:


> 12d6 seems ok if it's half-slashing and half-force.  That'd be better than a fireball from a similar CR sorc/wiz.  And I think we can let the DM figure out how to advance it, like usual, right?




OK we'll leave it as is then.


----------



## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

Let's not go the oversized weapon route.  Other than the base damage, nothing in the original text or artwork implied a giant sword.  If we want to get closer to the original damage, we can simply boost Str, give it Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat, add plusses on the weapon, or all of the above.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's not go the oversized weapon route.  Other than the base damage, nothing in the original text or artwork implied a giant sword.  If we want to get closer to the original damage, we can simply boost Str, give it Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat, add plusses on the weapon, or all of the above.




I want my 2d8 damage! 

That's what the AD&D writeup says it does.

We could give its slam attacks Improved Natural Attack. That'd change its 1d10s to 2d8s, which is better on average than Weapon Specialization's +2 damage.

Of course I just suggested that because I know what Shade thinks of Improved Natural Attack on base monsters.


----------



## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I want my 2d8 damage!
> 
> That's what the AD&D writeup says it does.




The base damage rarely (or at least "uncommonly") matches the original damage, since Str bonuses are so much higher in 3e.



Cleon said:


> We could give its slam attacks Improved Natural Attack. That'd change its 1d10s to 2d8s, which is better on average than Weapon Specialization's +2 damage.
> 
> Of course I just suggested that because I know what Shade thinks of Improved Natural Attack on base monsters.




  

On the bright side, you've got another opportunity for a Cleon Special (TM).


----------



## freyar (Apr 21, 2010)

You guys crack me up. 

I'm tempted to say go with Weapon Spec as a bonus feat since that'd be unusual, but then I think the entire "race" of these is stuck with greatswords the way bonus feats work.  Going with enhancement appeals, though.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> You guys crack me up.
> 
> I'm tempted to say go with Weapon Spec as a bonus feat since that'd be unusual, but then I think the entire "race" of these is stuck with greatswords the way bonus feats work.  Going with enhancement appeals, though.




So, give it a SA ability to wield its greatsword as an enchanted weapon of some kind? A _+2 keen greatsword_, for the sake of argument?


----------



## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

Well, I was just thinking of  a normal +1 enhancement, but we could go with something like you suggest.  +2 keen might be a little much, though, given it's likely CR 6 or 7.


----------



## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

+1 keen or flat +2?

Rather than give 'em all Weapon Spec (greatsword), we could note in the "magical weapon" ability that they are treated as having Weapon Specialization when wielding their chosen weapon.   Something like...

Magic Weapon (Su):  Any manufactured weapon wielded by a gu'armoru is treated as a +2/+1 keen weapon.  If the weapon already has a magical enhancement bonus, use that bonus instead.  Additionally, the gu'armor gains Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat for any weapon it wields.


----------



## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

That seems fine with me!  Let's go with +2, I guess, since it might not always carry a slashing weapon.


----------



## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

Cool.  Let's see if Cleon approves.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> +1 keen or flat +2?
> 
> Rather than give 'em all Weapon Spec (greatsword), we could note in the "magical weapon" ability that they are treated as having Weapon Specialization when wielding their chosen weapon.   Something like...
> 
> Magic Weapon (Su):  Any manufactured weapon wielded by a gu'armoru is treated as a +2/+1 keen weapon.  If the weapon already has a magical enhancement bonus, use that bonus instead.  Additionally, the gu'armor gains Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat for any weapon it wields.




Now that's more or less what I was thinking of.

If you don't like _keen_ how about a _+2 ghost touch_ weapon?


----------



## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

That would be quite beneficial for dealing with those who attempt to bypass the gu'.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> That would be quite beneficial for dealing with those who attempt to bypass the gu'.




That was my reasoning. 

Plus, the force damage when it explodes means it's got two ways of getting those pesky ethereal PCs.


----------



## freyar (Apr 24, 2010)

I'd maybe be a little happier with +1 ghost touch, but this is ok.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd maybe be a little happier with +1 ghost touch, but this is ok.




I don't mind dropping a point of enhancement bonus if it bothers you.


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2010)

Updated.

damage reduction x/x   (10/adamantine?)

Organization: Solitary or x (2–4)

Advancement: x



> Gu’armori (singular: gu’armoru) are animated suits of armor constructed through the combined efforts of a magic-user of at least 16th level and a cleric of at least 11th level. The creation of a single gu’armoru requires the fabrication of a suit of adamantite-alloyed armor...




A gu'armoru stands 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.  (Same weight as adamantine plate armor?)



> The “life force” which powers a gu’armoru qualifies the creature to be classified as a special type of undead entity, and any cleric has a 2% -per-level chance of recognizing one as such. If recognition occurs, a cleric of 11th level or higher may (if he chooses to make the attempt) affect a gu’armoru by rolling a 20 on d20, thereby “turning” the energy-spark which animates the gu’armoru and resulting in the explosion of the armor, with effects as described below.




Tomb-Tainted (Ex): Although a construct, a gu'armoru is harmed treated as undead for purposes of spells and effects that treat undead differently (such as searing light or holy water). A gu'armoru may be turned as if it were an undead creature with +x turn resistance.  A successful turning check triggers the gu'armoru's explosive instability (see above).


----------



## freyar (Apr 27, 2010)

DR 10/adamantine

Adamantine full plate sounds like a good comparison for weight, sure.

Looks like it's not easy to turn.  And it's not very undead.  So say +4 or even +6 turning resistance?  What should the DC for the explosive instability be when it's triggered by turning?  Equal to turning check or maybe turning damage?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> DR 10/adamantine
> 
> Adamantine full plate sounds like a good comparison for weight, sure.




A good basis maybe, but its got a (natural) armour bonus 4 points higher than adamantine full plate and a DR 7 points higher than adamantine full plate so I'd think it's much thicker than regular armour.

Hmm, it's got +50% armour and +233% DC so if we average that it's +143.5%.

How about 150% heavier than a Medium suit of full plate, or 125 pounds?



freyar said:


> Looks like it's not easy to turn.  And it's not very undead.  So say +4 or even +6 turning resistance?  What should the DC for the explosive instability be when it's triggered by turning?  Equal to turning check or maybe turning damage?




Hmm, the +4 would be enough for  me. Its not short of Hit Dice, it's the exploding that causes it problems. Don't really mind either way, though.

I prefer turning damage for the explodo-save, as the turning check isn't level-dependent.


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2–4)

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x


----------



## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

As we discussed above, let's alter tomb tainted as follows:

Tomb-Tainted (Ex): Although a construct, a gu'armoru is harmed treated as undead for purposes of spells and effects that treat undead differently (such as searing light or holy water). A gu'armoru may be turned as if it were an undead creature with +4 turn resistance. A successful turning check triggers the gu'armoru's explosive instability (see above) with a Fortitude save DC equal to the turning damage.

No great ideas on org, though phalanx oddly springs to mind.

CR looks about 7ish, though the death throes damage is a bit high for that.

I'm guessing someone else will have more opinion on the advancement.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.




It still needs some Spell Resistance, since the original had a little Magic Resistance.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or x (2–4)




Well these are basically walking suits of armour, so how about an arsenal of gu'armori or an armory of gu'armor?



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x




Challenge Rating about 8?



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




I'd like them to stay the same size, since their combat abilities are basically like a fighter.

Advancement: 13-24 HD (Medium) ?


----------



## freyar (Apr 30, 2010)

Armory works for me (arsenal sounds like weapons for some reason).

Advancement sounds ok.


----------



## Cleon (May 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Armory works for me (arsenal sounds like weapons for some reason).




Yes, I prefer armoury too.


----------



## Shade (May 3, 2010)

Updated.

Are we ready for Construction?



> Gu’armori (singular: gu’armoru) are animated suits of armor constructed through the combined efforts of a magicuser of at least 16th level and a cleric of at least 11th level. The creation of a single gu’armoru requires the fabrication of a suit of adamantite-alloyed armor, the life energy of a fallen fighter of at least 12th level, and the casting of the following spells: animate dead, animate object, enchant an item, geas, magic jar, and raise dead. The exact procedure is performed according to a jealously guarded arcane ritual-only three written copies of the instructions are known to exist. The process takes at least four months to complete, at a cost of 35,000 gp for each gu’armoru.




So CL 16th, animate dead, animate object, geas/quest, magic jar, and raise dead?   Should we require Craft (armorsmithing) check, or simply require a suit of already-completed armor?


----------



## freyar (May 3, 2010)

Are we requiring both arcane and divine casters?  If we're dropping that, I think we should get rid of magic jar and just go for cleric (like the rest of the spells).  I'd go with preconstructed armor, I think.  Let's not forget the cost of that, since it's adamantine (I guess full plate).


----------



## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Are we requiring both arcane and divine casters?  If we're dropping that, I think we should get rid of magic jar and just go for cleric (like the rest of the spells).  I'd go with preconstructed armor, I think.  Let's not forget the cost of that, since it's adamantine (I guess full plate).




Agree to dropping the magic jar spell but I'd rather include X pounds of fine steel and adamantine with a total material cost of 15,000 gp (same as the item cost modifier for a heavy suit of adamantine armour), plus an armorsmithing check.

A regular suit of adamantine full plate costs 16,500 gp if you want to go that way.


----------



## Shade (May 5, 2010)

CR 8 golems have a cost to create around 17,500 and a total price of 25,000 gp.  If we tack on "1,000 gp worth of rare tinctures and admixtures" we'll be set.

Alternately, we could require "special inks" and require a Craft (calligraphy) check to draw runes upon the armor.

So something like...

A gu'armoru's body is created from a suit of adamantine full plate armor costing 16,500 gp. Magical runes must be drawn upon the armor from special inks costing 1,000 gp.  Etching these runes requires a DC 20 Craft (calligraphy) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, animate dead, animate object, geas/quest, raise dead, caster must be at least 16th level; Price x,000 gp; Cost 16,500 gp + x XP.


----------



## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> CR 8 golems have a cost to create around 17,500 and a total price of 25,000 gp.  If we tack on "1,000 gp worth of rare tinctures and admixtures" we'll be set.
> 
> Alternately, we could require "special inks" and require a Craft (calligraphy) check to draw runes upon the armor.
> 
> ...




17,500 gp of materials for a 25,000 gp Construct? That's 70% of the value, which seems awfully high. Perhaps we should just make it masterwork full plate (1650 gp) and note the enchantment requires special inks and powdered adamantine costing an additional 750 gp, which would make 2400 gp in total. That seems a more reasonable proportion to the market price:

e.g.:

A gu'armoru's body is created from a suit of masterwork full plate armor  costing 16,50 gp. The enchantment process requires powdered adamantine and special inks which are used to draw magical runes upon the armor, these materials cost an additional 750 gp.  Etching these runes requires a DC 20  Craft (calligraphy) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, _animate dead_, _animate object_, _geas/quest_,  _raise dead_, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 25,000 gp; Cost  13,700 gp + 904 XP.


----------



## Shade (May 6, 2010)

That works much better.  

Updated.  Done?


----------



## Cleon (May 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> That works much better.
> 
> Updated.  Done?




Oops! I forgot to move the comma when I cut the last zero off the full plate's cost, it should be "a suit of masterwork full plate armor costing 1,650 gp", not "16,50 gp".

Apart from that the only modification I would suggest is changing the first sentence of the description to "Gu’armori (singular Gu’armoru) are animated suits of plate armor, to which has been bound  the spirit of a high-level fighter."

It doesn't need the "adamantine", and explains the use of gu'armori/gu'armoru in the rest of the text.


----------



## Shade (May 10, 2010)

Fixed.

We've got a request for the shadow panther from Dragon #251, but apparently that's one of the few gaps in my collection.


----------



## Shade (May 11, 2010)

OK, thanks to help from Eridanis and Echohawk, we're good to go.

*SHADOW PANTHER*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate Plains and mountains
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
No. APPEARING: 2-7
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
No. of ATTACKS: 3 or 5
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3/1-8, 1-3/1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Constriction
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Hide in shadows
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10'-12' long)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 650

As one might guess by their name, shadow panthers are the deepest black. Also known as "mountain ghosts," these predators are greatly feared by those who dwell near them. A shadow panther looks very much like a displacer beast, with several distinctions: the creature's six legs are evenly-spaced along its torso (whereas displacer beasts have two front legs and four hind lefs); the two tentacles growing from its forward shoulder blades lack the displacer beast's horny ridges, instead tapering to a single bony hook; and the male possesses an almost leonine black mane of shaggy hair around its head and neck. Many sages believe the shadow panther to be an evolutionary link between the displacer beast and the wemic, a view supported by the fact that the creature has a second hip joint at its middle set of legs, allowing it to raise its upper torso and travel on its rear two sets of legs in a wemic-like fashion.

Combat: A shadow panther attack primarily with its teeth and foreclaws; if backed into a corner, it can rear up on its hind legs and attack with its middle claws also. Each claw attack causes 1-3 hp damage, and the creature bites for 1-8 hp damage. In addition, it can use its tentacles to restrain particularly difficult prey. A tentacle attack strikes at -2 to hit; if successful, all further attacks that round are made at +2 to hit. The victim must make a successful Strength check in order to break free of the shadow panther's tentacle the following round. The tentacles are sensitive, so shadow panthers do not use them in combat unless absolutely necessary. They are, however, often used to carry cubs on their backs when fleeing, or to drag away slain prey to devour it in the safety of their lairs.

Because of their dark color, shadow panthers have an innate ability to hide in shadows. They use this ability to sneak up on prey, and also to escape if they find themselves overpowered by a stronger foe. While their ability to hide in shadows necessarily depends upon the terrain and lighting, shadow panthers have an overall success rate of about 75%.

Habitat/Society: Shadow panthers live in small packs, with a dominant male, his mate, their children, and his siblings. They are savage yet show an intelligence beyond that of their animal nature. In any case, the pack works remarkable well together using teamwork to corner and trap prey with deadly effectiveness.

Ecology: Most of the shadow panthers' time is spet in their mountain habitat, where they lair in hidden caves. They are exceptional climbers, using their hooked tentacles to find the narrowest of purchases. Their agility allows them to prey upon mountain goats and sheep, which make up their primary food source. They do not seem to fear humans or demihumans and have been known to attack not only livestock but also farmers.

The pelts of shadow panthers are prized because of their rich, sleek fur and ink-black coloration. A shadow panther skin in good condition can sell for as much as 3,000 gold pieces . A cloak made of shadow panther fur can add 5% to a rogue's hide in shadows ability but does not allow someone without the ability to hide in shadows.

So far, all attempts as domesticating shadow panther young have failed. The cubs seem to savage to train, and -- worse yet -- shadow panthers have an uncanny ability to track others of their kind. Even if the rest of a newborn cub's pack is slain and the cub is taken to be raised as a guard beast, before too long, a shadow panther "strike team" hunts the creature down to rescue it, slaying its captors if possible. Such cubs are then adopted into the new pack and raised as one of their own.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #251 (1998).


----------



## Cleon (May 11, 2010)

These look pretty straightforward.

Take a Leopard, Lion or Tiger and make it a 6 HD magical beast.

Add a couple of tentacle secondary attacks with Improved Grab and maybe Constrict.

Maybe add a Shadow Blend type power.

Ability score wise they're more intelligent, so I'd add 4 to a original big cat's Int and Charisma.

The original's 1-8/1-3/1-3 attacks are a match to a Jaguar (which is between a Lion and a Leopard). A jaguar's a Large animal in 2E AD&D as is the shadow panther, so I'm thinking we base it on the SRD Lion's stats.

*Lion:* Str 21, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6, +3 NA
*Shadow Panther:* Str 21, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 10

That would make it something like:

*Shadow Panther*
Large Magical Beast 
Hit Dice: 6d10+12 (45 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+19
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d3+5) 
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d3+5), bite +8 melee (1d8+2), 2 tentacles +8 melee (1d3+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d3+5, improved grab, rake 1d3+2, pounce
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light  vision, scent, _*shadow blend?*_
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: 9 points
Feats: Multiattack plus 2 other feats


----------



## Cleon (May 12, 2010)

The only other special ability I can see is "shadow panthers have an uncanny ability to track others of their kind" used to find and rescue captured cubs.

Since this is a mysterious "uncanny" power I'm thinking about making it psionic rather than magical. Probably something like.

*Scry Shadow Panther (Ps):* Shadow panthers have an uncanny ability to sense other shadow panthers. As a full-round action a shadow panther can sense the presence of all other shadow  panthers within a radius of 100 miles, with additional full-round actions it can focus on a single panther within range and determine more information about it - its identity on its first round, its approximate age and health on the second round (cub or adult; healthy, diseased or dying) and its general circumstances on the third round (contented, entangled, trapped, stressed _et cetera_). On the fourth round and subsequent round of focused scrying the shadow panther can view the target panther's surrounding as if it were using the psionic power _clairvoyant sense_. A shadow panther will automatically sense when another panther is using scry shadow panther to sense them. This ability is considered a 5th level psionic power with a manifestation level of 15th.

EDIT: Upon reflection, I think it works better if the scrying has an unlimited range as per normal, otherwise those nasty cub-nappers would simply take their victims to an isolated island outside their detection range.

Revising...


*Scry Shadow Panther (Ps):* Shadow panthers have an uncanny ability  to sense other shadow panthers. As a full-round action a shadow panther  can sense the presence and identity of all other shadow  panthers within a radius of  100 miles. A shadow panther will automatically sense when another panther is using  scry shadow panther to sense them. 

Furthermore, a shadow panther can focus on any other shadow panther it has ever sensed with scry shadow panther and determine determine more information about it. This second function has an unlimited range, but both shadow panthers must be on the same plane of existence.

Each round of focused scrying requires a full-round action by the panther. On the first round it senses the distance and direction of the other panther; on the second round it senses its approximate age and health (cub or adult; healthy, diseased or dying); and on the third round it senses its general  circumstances (contented, entangled, trapped,  stressed _et cetera_). On the fourth and subsequent rounds of focused scrying the shadow panther can view the  target panther's surrounding as if it were using the psionic power _clairvoyant  sense_.

This ability is considered a 5th level psionic power with a  manifestation level of 15th.


----------



## Shade (May 12, 2010)

Since these are the "missing link" between displacer beasts and wemics, I think we should look to those creatures as the primary informants for stats...

Displacer Beast: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 8, +5 NA
Wemic: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 9, +4 NA

Compared to 2e displacer beast, Int is 3 better, AC is 1 worse, and physical attacks are much weaker (1d3 vs. 2d4 for the claws). Compared to the 2e wemic, their claws are still weaker (1d3 vs. 1d4), AC is the same, and Int is 3 less.

Thus, I'm suggesting Str 18, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 9, +4 NA


----------



## Cleon (May 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Since these are the "missing link" between displacer beasts and wemics, I think we should look to those creatures as the primary informants for stats...
> 
> Displacer Beast: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 8, +5 NA
> Wemic: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 9, +4 NA
> ...




Don't much care for that. They look much closer to a Displacer Beast than a Wemic, their only Wemic-like ability is being able to rear on their hindlegs and rake with their middle claws.

Dex 13 seems way too low, and it gives it AC14 with your proposed NA bonus and the penalty for being Large. I'd rather cut its NA to give it an AC one point lower than a Displacer.

Also, the AD&D Displacer Beast had the same Intelligence as an AD&D leopard, so I don't care for giving them a near-human degree of cunning. I'd be OK increasing it a point or two, but I'd like to keep it with the "Low Intelligence" 5-7 range.

I'm happy cutting the rough draft's Str from 21 to 19, to give them the same Str bonus as a Displacer Beast put a point higher ability score. Since they're a bit bigger than a DB (10-12 feet vs 8-12 feet) they could be a tad stronger.

So, something like:

Shadow Panther: Str 19, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9, +4NA

Of course, using the Displacer Beast is a bit naughty, it being closed  content and all. A lion'd be much more above-board.


----------



## Shade (May 13, 2010)

I can go for most of that, but I still think the Strength needs to be lower due to the feeble, low-damage claw attacks.


----------



## Cleon (May 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> I can go for most of that, but I still think the Strength needs to be lower due to the feeble, low-damage claw attacks.




Don't you think Str 19 is low enough? It's the same Strength bonus as your proposed Str 18, so it just means the slightly larger Shadow Panther can carry a bit more.

Carrying capacity's pretty irrelevant unless they start using armour or equipment or someone is riding them.

Hmm...


----------



## freyar (May 16, 2010)

Been a while since I could look in on this thread...  The gu' looks good. 

Since the bonus is the same, I think going with Str 19 and Cleon's most recent ability list is fine.

Definitely need Shadow Blend, since they have "hide in shadows" on the special defense line.

Imp grab seems right, and I'll give you rake, but I don't get constrict from the weak, sensitive tentacles at all.

Scrying is interesting, but it seems a bit complicated for something that sounded an awful lot like flavor in the original text.  I also think you're extrapolating a lot from the one sentence that's there. Could we cut this down somehow?


----------



## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Been a while since I could look in on this thread...  The gu' looks good.
> 
> Since the bonus is the same, I think going with Str 19 and Cleon's most recent ability list is fine.
> 
> ...




Yes, I prefer Imp Grab without the Constrict. The original text isn't even clear whether the tentacles do any damage - the 1-3/1-3 in the Damage line could all be its claws.



freyar said:


> Scrying is interesting, but it seems a bit complicated for something that sounded an awful lot like flavor in the original text.  I also think you're extrapolating a lot from the one sentence that's there. Could we cut this down somehow?




Probably, you know what I'm like.

How about.

*Call for Rescue (Su):* Shadow panthers have an innate ability to telepathically contact other shadow panthers whenever they are seriously injured or imprisoned. Even newborn cubs possess this power, which is unconscious and automatic. The call will reach the nearest pack of Shadow Panthers (regardless of distance, but they must be on the same plane of existence), who may decide to come to the distressed Shadow Panther's aid. If the call comes from a cub the other Panthers always form a "strike team" to rescue the youngster and adopt it into their pack.


----------



## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Str 19 is fine, and the call to rescue works...as flavor text.   Nothing in it really cries out "special ability".

I'll get these kitties Homebrewed shortly.


----------



## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.



> Most of the shadow panthers' time is spet in their mountain habitat, where they lair in hidden caves. They are exceptional climbers, using their hooked tentacles to find the narrowest of purchases.




Add a climb speed of 20 feet?

Skills: Wemics have a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks.  Give them a +4?


----------



## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Str 19 is fine, and the call to rescue works...as flavor text.   Nothing in it really cries out "special ability".
> 
> I'll get these kitties Homebrewed shortly.




Fair enough.

They definitely need a Climb speed, it'll help them going over  mountains. Climb 20 ft. like a Leopard is fine.

Let's start talking skills and feats.

I'm thinking we should just give them a Leopard's racial skill bonuses and put their 3 extra skill points in Hide to mostly compensate for the penalty of being Large.

That'd give them:

Skills: Balance +12, Climb +11, Hide +7*, Jump +11, Listen +6, Move Silently +8, Spot +6

Skills: Shadow Panthers have a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Shadow Panthers have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A shadow panther can always choose to take 10  on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.

Keep a Leopard's Alertness but they won't benefit from a Leopard's Weapon Finesse, so I'd swap it for Weapon Focus (claws).

Feats: Alertness, Multiattack, Weapon Focus (claws)


----------



## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Skills look good.  Let's cut the "*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.", since that seems more to do with the leopards coloration.  If anything, we could give 'em a bonus in areas of shadowy illumination, but that seems redundant with shadow blend.

Both displacer beast and wemic have Stealthy, so I'd prefer that in place of Weapon Focus.  It helps ties them in with its "parents" a bit more.

Updated.

CR 5?   They are deadlier than both the displacer beast and tiger (both CR 4).



> A cloak made of shadow panther fur can add 5% to a rogue's hide in shadows ability but does not allow someone without the ability to hide in shadows.




Cloak grants small bonus on Hide checks, or disregard?


----------



## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Skills look good.  Let's cut the "*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.", since that seems more to do with the leopards coloration.  If anything, we could give 'em a bonus in areas of shadowy illumination, but that seems redundant with shadow blend.
> 
> Both displacer beast and wemic have Stealthy, so I'd prefer that in place of Weapon Focus.  It helps ties them in with its "parents" a bit more.




Agreed to dropping the undergrowth and substituting Stealthy.



Shade said:


> CR 5?   They are deadlier than both the displacer beast and tiger (both CR 4).




I was thinking they're about as nasty as a Tiger. They don't have much in they way of special abilities apart from Shadow Blend, and their combat stats are similar.

Tiger - AC 14, hp 45, Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d8+6) and bite +4 melee (2d6+3) plus maybe 2 rakes +9 melee (1d8+3)

Shadow Panther - AC 15, hp 51, Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d3+5) and 2 tentacles +8 melee (1d3+2) and bite +8  melee (1d8+2) plus maybe 2 rakes +10 melee (1d3+2)

If all their attacks hit the Tiger's 4d8+18+2d6+3 averages 46 points, the Shadow Panther's 6d3+18+1d8+2 averages 36.5. The Panther's a bit more likely to hit since it's got Multiattack though.

So I'm thinking CR4 is plenty for them.



Shade said:


> Cloak grants small bonus on Hide checks, or disregard?




I don't think we need it.

I suppose we could say _cloaks of elvenkind_ are sometimes made from Shadow Panther pelts or something, but most 3E monsters don't bother with special/magic items that can be made from their body parts.


----------



## Shade (May 18, 2010)

That's reasonable.  Updated.   

Anything left to do?


----------



## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's reasonable.  Updated.
> 
> Anything left to do?




I'm thinking we should change the treasure.

The original stats don't give a treasure type, so I don't think they should have Standard treasure.

Also, 3000 gp seems too high for a standard pelt, since an average CR4 treasure is 1200 gp.

How about:*Treasure:* 100% Goods (pelt - see below)

The maximum value of a shadow panther's pelt is equal to the standard treasure value of its challenge rating (1,200 gp for an CR4 shadow panther). ​A fully maximized Shadow Panther would therefore have a pelt worth 4,500 gp, since it's CR9. (+1 size and +12 HD => +5 CR)


----------



## Shade (May 19, 2010)

I'm fine with the pelt being the only treasure, but I'd rather not tie it to the CR, since no other critters with valuable "bits" work that way.  If that doesn't sit well with you, we can just drop the pelt altogether, since the displacer beast doesn't mention it's (presumably) more valuable pelt.

The displacer beast's treasure is: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items

I'd be fine with either borrowing that, or simply "none".


----------



## freyar (May 19, 2010)

Let's go with the essentially "incidental lair treasure" of the displacer beast.  Tying pelt value to CR is pretty distasteful to me, too.


----------



## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Updated.  Anything else?


----------



## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's go with the essentially "incidental lair treasure" of the displacer beast.  Tying pelt value to CR is pretty distasteful to me, too.




Let's go with what the Displacer Beast has. We've already dropped mention of the pelt's special properties, so we may as well go all the way and not give it a value.


----------



## freyar (May 20, 2010)

Looks good to go.


----------



## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good to go.




Hold your panthers!

We forgot its -1 attack penalty for being Large.

It should have +9 melee with claws and rake, +7 with tentacles and bite.

Apart from that they're good to go.

EDIT: Correction. It wasn't the size penalty. They had Str 21 in my first draft, and we dropped the Str to 19 but forgot to reduce the attack modifier. They've also still got a +5 damage on their claws which should now be +4.

Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d3+4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d3+4) and 2 tentacles +7 melee (1d3+2)  and bite +7 melee (1d8+2)

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +9 melee, damage 1d3+2.


----------



## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Fixed.

And now for something completely different...

*Squid, Vampire*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any Underdark
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY/CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 12
HlT DICE: 7+7
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 6 (tentacles) or 1 (bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK:  1-4 (x6) or 3-36
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Ram
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spikes
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: H (24’ long)
MORALE: Fanatic (18)
XP VALUE: 5,000

Creations and servitors of the illithids, the vampire squid are tools of the mind flayers, meant to extend their masters’ reach into the waters of the sunless seas below the earth. It has lambent blue-green eyes and can see up to 150 yards through dark water; this sight, combined with its ability to reach an underwater “sprint” of up to 33 make it a deadly predator.

Combat: Though its tentacles are too weak to constrict its prey, the vampire squid has a maw full of spiky, needle-sharp teeth. It uses its tentacles to direct prey to its maw, where it can be dispatched quickly. Each tentacles that successfully holds a victim grants the mouth a +2 bonus to the attack roll; for example, a drow warrior held by three tentacles would suffer 1-4 points abrasion damage and (if the squid were to attempt to bite him) it would attack with a +6 bonus to the roll. 

When it sights its prey, the vampire squid prefers to attack by surprise, gathering speed as it approaches on a collision course. The end of its body is a hardened shell; any creature struck by the squid at full speed suffers 2-24 hp damage and may drop any object it is holding if it fails a Wisdom check. 

Furthermore, as a defensive measure it can turn its maw inside out, putting spiky teeth on the outside. This turns a retreating vampire squid into a mass of sword-sized spikes, much like an underwater hedgehog. Anyone attacking the vampire squid while it is in this form suffers a damage equal to the attacker’s AC (creatures with negative Armor Class suffer no damage).

Habitat/Society: Vampire squid are entirely devoted to their creators, the illithids, and obey their every command without hesitation. However, they are not innately evil, and if they can be charmed or otherwise lured away from their masters they are honorable, trustworthy creatures. Those few vampire squid that have been captured by other races often serve as transportation, able to pull great rafts or war-barges through the water; however, these captured vampire squid never reproduce; it is believed that they cannot bear young without magical or psionic assistance from the illithids, and that this accounts for their loyalty to the mind flayers.

Ecology: The vampire squid eat hundreds of pounds of fish, insects, and mollusks; they are almost always solitary for this reason as two such predators sharing the same space quickly destroy the local fish stocks. They gather together only to mate or to serve their masters, who provide them with land-based foodstuffs.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #227 (1996).


----------



## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed.




Sorry about this, but I've just realized the skills are wrong too.

I'm afraid I've forgotten to adjust its skills for the stat differences between a Leopard and a Shadow Panther.

Balance should be +10 (+2 Dex, +8 racial)
Climb should be +12 (+4 Str, +8 racial)
Hide is OK, but there shouldn't be an asterisk after Hide as it doesn't have a  bonus to Hide in undergrowth.
Jump should be +16 (+4 Str, +8 racial, +4 speed)
Move Silently should be +6 (+2 Dex, +4 racial)

Corrected Skills: Balance +10, Climb +12, Hide +9*, Jump +16, Listen +6, Move Silently  +6, Spot +6



Shade said:


> And now for something completely different...
> 
> *Squid, Vampire*




What a cruel thing those illithids did to a sweet little *Vampyroteuthis*!

These creatures are significantly smaller than a regular Giant Squid. 7 HD Huge and 24' versus the AD&D Giant Squid's 12 HD Gargantuan and 60', but they're twice as big as an AD&D Giant Octopus (Large and 9-12') although they have lower Hit Dice.

So, make them Large and give them physical stats halfway between the SRD Giant Octopus and Giant Squid? Maybe something like:

Giant Octopus: Str 20, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3
Giant Squid: Str 26, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Vampire Squid: Str 23, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11 ?

The +7 in their 7+7 Hit Dice suggests it might have a higher Constitution though. Raise it to Con 15?

Vampire Squid
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 7d10+14 (52 hp)
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11 ?


----------



## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Fixed shadow panther again.  Stop breaking things!  

The vampire squid ability scores appeal.


----------



## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed shadow panther again.  Stop breaking things!




Dang blast it, I forgot to take the asterisk off after the Panther's Hide skill after pointing out it was wrong.

*Skills:* Balance +10, Climb +12, Hide +9, Jump +16, Listen +6, Move  Silently +6, Spot +6



Shade said:


> The vampire squid ability scores appeal.




OK, the Vampire Squid's AC is the same as a Giant squid's, so we ought to give it NA + for an AC of 17.

Its tentacles do 1d4 but its bite is 3d12!

Do we want to keep that high a bite damage for a Large animal? I'd rather give it 2d8 like a Huge giant squid and add a 1.5 times Str bonus (like a True Dragon's tail-slap secondary attack) and an Augmented Critical. Maybe 18-20/×3?

Do you think that'd be nasty enough?

It's also got a ramming attack - we might as well adapt the same one we borrowed for the Giant Horseshoe Crab.

Finally, it's got a "ball of blades" defense. We've got a lot of similar abilities to use for inspiration.

That'd give us:

*Vampire Squid*
Large Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 7d10+14 (52 hp)
*BAB/Grapple:* +7/+17
*Attack:* Tentacle +12 melee (1d4+6)
*Full Attack:* 6 tentacles +12 melee (1d4+6) and bite +7 melee (2d8+9/18-20×3)
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11
*Special Attacks:* Augmented critical, constrict 1d4+6, improved grab, ramming
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., ink cloud, jet, low-light vision, "spiked defense"

Ramming (Ex): As a standard action, a vampire squid can swim at up to quadruple  speed (*X* feet) and ram a waterborne target (such as a ship or another  creature). To ram, the vampire squid must end its movement in the target's  space. This attack deals *2d12+9?* points of damage. If the target is a  creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC *Y*  Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the vampire squid can make a Strength check to breach its  hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies  with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC  23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See  Chapter 5 of the DMG  for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every  creature aboard must attempt a DC 15 Reflex saving throw. Success means  the creature takes 1d6 points of damage from being thrown about by the  impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.


----------



## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Dang blast it, I forgot to take the asterisk off after the Panther's Hide skill after pointing out it was wrong.




Fixed.



Cleon said:


> OK, the Vampire Squid's AC is the same as a Giant squid's, so we ought to give it NA + for an AC of 17.




Sounds good (whatever the phantom number might be).  



Cleon said:


> Its tentacles do 1d4 but its bite is 3d12!
> 
> Do we want to keep that high a bite damage for a Large animal? I'd rather give it 2d8 like a Huge giant squid and add a 1.5 times Str bonus (like a True Dragon's tail-slap secondary attack) and an Augmented Critical. Maybe 18-20/×3?
> 
> Do you think that'd be nasty enough?




Sure, for the basic version. When I advance one for a home campaign, it will of course also have Improved Critical (bite).  



Cleon said:


> It's also got a ramming attack - we might as well adapt the same one we borrowed for the Giant Horseshoe Crab.




Yup.



Cleon said:


> Finally, it's got a "ball of blades" defense. We've got a lot of similar abilities to use for inspiration.




Yep.  Gotta love that.


----------



## freyar (May 21, 2010)

Oooh, ties to illithidae, cool.

I guess I pretty much agree with all the above on these.  For the ball of blades, I suggest just using barbed defense as an at will Ex that prevents it from attacking.


----------



## Cleon (May 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good (whatever the phantom number might be).




I make it:

Armour Class: 17 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14



Shade said:


> Sure, for the basic version. When I advance one for a home campaign, it will of course also have Improved Critical (bite).




Well that (and Improved Natural Attack) goes without saying.

Filling it in a bit more...

We've basically only got its skills, feats and "Spiked Defense" special quality to figure out.

*Vampire Squid*
Large Magical Beast (Aquatic)
*Hit Dice:* 7d10+14 (52 hp)
*Speed:* Swim 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armour Class:* 17 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
*BAB/Grapple:*  +7/+17
*Attack:* Tentacle +12 melee (1d4+6)
*Full  Attack:* 6 tentacles +12 melee (1d4+6) and bite +7 melee  (2d8+9/18-20×3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tentacle)
*Special Attacks:* Augmented critical, constrict  1d4+6, improved grab, ramming
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision  60 ft., ink cloud, jet, low-light vision, "spiked defense"
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 10,  Wis 12, Cha 11
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +8, Will 3
*Skills:* 20 - Listen ?, Spot ?, Swim +14
*Feats:* 3 - ?
*Environment:* Underground
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* ?
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Usually lawful neutral ?
*Advancement:* 8-12 HD (Large) 13-21 HD (Huge) ?
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Jet (Ex):* A vampire squid can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of *120* feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting. 

*Ramming (Ex):* As a standard action, a vampire squid can swim at up to  quadruple  speed (120 feet) and ram a  waterborne target (such as a ship or another  creature). To ram, the  vampire squid must end its movement in the target's  space. This attack  deals 2d12+9 points of damage. If the  target is a  creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or  a DC 19 Reflex save for half damage.  The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the vampire squid can make a Strength check to  breach its  hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The  break DC varies  with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC  20, keelboat DC  23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or  galley DC 30. (See  Chapter 5 of the DMG  for information about ships).  Regardless of the check result, every  creature aboard must attempt a DC  15 Reflex saving throw. Success means  the creature takes 1d6 points of  damage from being thrown about by the  impact; failure means the  creature is hurled overboard.


----------



## freyar (May 24, 2010)

Let's give this a try:

Voluntary Barbed Defense (Ex): A vampire squid can invert its toothy maw as a defensive measure; in this form, it cannot use its bite attack and takes a -X penalty on tentacle attacks.  However, any creature striking it with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes X points of piercing and slashing damage from the squid's exposed teeth. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.


----------



## Cleon (May 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's give this a try:
> 
> Voluntary Barbed Defense (Ex): A vampire squid can invert its toothy maw as a defensive measure; in this form, it cannot use its bite attack and takes a -X penalty on tentacle attacks.  However, any creature striking it with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes X points of piercing and slashing damage from the squid's exposed teeth. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.




The basic idea's sound but I don't like the name that much. I'd also like to include a save - probably Reflex for half damage, probably with a Con-based DC.

We also need to say what action is required, and I think we should note  it can not jet or run when in a defensive ball.

I wouldn't bother with the attack penalty for the tentacles.

So, I'm thinking something like...

*Ball of Fangs (Ex):* A vampire squid can invert its toothy maw  as a defensive measure, surrounding its body with its sword-long teeth. Inverting its maw takes a swift action, as does reverting back to its normal configuration. An inverted vampire squid can not use its bite attack, charge, Run or  use its jet special ability.

Any creature striking an inverted vampire squid with a handheld or natural weapon takes 1d10+6 points of piercing  and slashing damage (halved on a successful DC 15 Reflex save); except for opponents wielding handheld weapons  with exceptional reach, such as longspears, who can attack the squid without taking damage from the exposed teeth. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## freyar (May 25, 2010)

Changing to the ball of fangs should probably take a move action; seems like that's been our standard.  Plus, I'm not sure I like these switching back and forth too much.  The damage also seems a bit too high.  Maybe 1d8+Con?  At the moment, you have much more damage than the much tougher barbed devil.


----------



## Cleon (May 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Changing to the ball of fangs should probably take a move action; seems like that's been our standard.  Plus, I'm not sure I like these switching back and forth too much.  The damage also seems a bit too high.  Maybe 1d8+Con?  At the moment, you have much more damage than the much tougher barbed devil.




I would rather keep it a swift action so it can deploy its defense quickly, but I could like with making it a move action. Alternatively, we could have it a swift action to invert and a move action to revert.

As for cutting the damage, at first I thought reducing it to 1d8+2 would make its ball of fangs far to feeble, but then I remembered it can still makes tentacle attacks as normal so it doesn't seem so bad.

Could we meet halfway and make it 1d10+Con?


----------



## freyar (May 26, 2010)

Somehow that's more than a barbed devil (1d8+Con), but maybe.  In that case, I really don't want them to be able to just switch back and forth every round, or this is "better" than what a barbed devil (at probably 6 CR higher!) has.  See what I'm saying?


----------



## Shade (May 26, 2010)

While you guys continue to debate, I've added the rest to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (May 26, 2010)

Gee, Shade, can't you just pick a side?  We need parental supervision.


----------



## Shade (May 26, 2010)

OK, go with either move action and 1d10+Con, or swift action and 1d8+Con.


----------



## freyar (May 26, 2010)

I guess I'll go with swift and 1d8+Con.   At least it only gets one swift action per round.


----------



## Shade (May 27, 2010)

Unless we do this!

Swifter than Swift (Ex):  A vampire squid may take more than one swift action each round.



Updated.


----------



## freyar (May 28, 2010)

Noooooo!!!!!!!  

Just noticed an extraneous ink cloud in the SQ line.

Maybe Hide 7, Move Silently 7, Spot 6 for skills since they like to ambush?

Stealthy, Power Attack, Blind Fight?  Or maybe Iron Will instead of Blind Fight?


----------



## Cleon (May 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> I guess I'll go with swift and 1d8+Con.   At least it only gets one swift action per round.




Ah, but it can make a swift action with a move action if it acts quickly enough.

I guess I could live with Swift and 1d8+Con.


----------



## freyar (May 30, 2010)

You really want this thing to be strong, don't you? 

CR 5? Compares reasonably to 6-headed hydra.


----------



## Cleon (May 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> You really want this thing to be strong, don't you?
> 
> CR 5? Compares reasonably to 6-headed hydra.




I'd think a 6-headed Hydra is nastier, since it can make six 1d10+3 bites as a standard action and has fast healing 16.

It's pretty similar to a Giant Octopus, which is CR 8 in the SRD. It does have a weaker Constrict attack though, which makes a considerable difference.

Still, I have a feeling the hydra is under-CR'd and the octopus it over-CR'd.

CR5 feels about right.


----------



## freyar (May 31, 2010)

I was surprised to see that hydra at CR 5!


----------



## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

CR 5 and the skills appeal.  Definitely Blind-Fight over Iron Will.  I grow weary of the overuse of Iron Will.  Not every critter needs to be mentally hardy.  

Updated.

Alignment: Usually lawful neutral?

Advancement: 8-12 HD (Large) 13-21 HD (Huge)?

A vampire squid's body is x feet long with 20-foot tentacles. 

Should they understand Undercommon so their illithid masters can communicate with them telepathically?


----------



## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

I'll say yes to all the questions and maybe 10 ft long for the body?


----------



## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

That works for me, but I'll hold judgement until our resident "sizeologist" checks in.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> CR 5 and the skills appeal.  Definitely Blind-Fight over Iron Will.  I grow weary of the overuse of Iron Will.  Not every critter needs to be mentally hardy.




I think you need to increase your Will saves to resist mental fatigue. Unfortunately I can't think of a feat that would help you.



Shade said:


> Alignment: Usually lawful neutral?
> 
> Advancement: 8-12 HD (Large) 13-21 HD (Huge)?
> 
> ...




The alignment and comprehending Undercommon is good.

I'd fancy having the Huge size category start at 12 HD, since that's when the SRD Giant Squid becomes Huge.

Advancement: 8-11 HD (Large) 12-21 HD (Huge)?



Shade said:


> freyar said:
> 
> 
> > I'll say yes to all the questions and maybe 10 ft  long for the body?
> ...




10 feet suits me, since it's half the body length of a Huge Giant Squid.

A typical vampire squid has a body 10 feet long and 20-foot tentacles. ?


----------



## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

All sounds good.



> It has lambent blue-green eyes and can see up to 150 yards through dark water; this sight, combined with its ability to reach an underwater “sprint” of up to 33 make it a deadly predator.




I'm wondering if we shouldn't give it murkvision and/or superior darkvision?

Murkvision (Ex): A shark-kin's vision is not limited in dark or murky water. It treats all water as clear water for purposes of determining vision.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> All sounds good.
> 
> I'm wondering if we shouldn't give it murkvision and/or superior darkvision?
> 
> Murkvision (Ex): A shark-kin's vision is not limited in dark or murky water. It treats all water as clear water for purposes of determining vision.




Looks like a great idea.

I'd also suggest giving it superior low-light vision, like a giant owl.

*Superior Low-Light Vision (Ex):* A giant owl can see five times as  far as a human can in dim light.

(I think Giant Squid should have that too, since they've got enormous eyes for peering through the abyssalpelagic darkness):


----------



## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Looks good!  Done?


----------



## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

I think so!


----------



## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think so!




Yup, can't see anything wrong with it.

What's up next?


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2010)

*Rummele*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (10% chance of 4-16)
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 18"//15"@15"
HIT DICE: 5 + 10
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: F
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Various immunities; never surprised
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
INTELLIGENCE: Average to very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral or chaotic good
SIZE: M (3’ at shoulder)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VI/550 + 6/hp

Rummeles are from the planes of Gladsheim (see DRAGON® Magazine, issue #90), though they are also found on Limbo, Olympus, and the Prime Material Plane. These canids are good-natured and are particularly friendly toward humans and demi-humans. Though they are somewhat unreliable, rummeles generally mean well.

A rummele can blink as a blink dog does, with the same chance of attacking from behind and the same ability to teleport away entirely. It may also activate the following spell-like powers at will, one per round, at the 6th level of ability: detect evil/good, diminution (as per the potion), enemy detection (as the wand), find the path (or its reverse), haste (once per day), invisibility, polymorph other (once per day), and polymorph self (to humanlike form only). A rummele may also create food and drink and other non-metallic items as a djinni does. A rummele has infravision and ultravision out to 90’, and can regenerate 1 hp per turn. This regenerative power can be transferred to one other being, by touch, for as long as physical contact is maintained.

The rummele is immune to diseases, poisons, effects of the Positive and Negative Material Planes (including life-level draining), and to petrification and polymorph effects. It is immune to certain will-force spells as if it had a 20 wisdom (see the DEITIES & DEMIGODS. Cyclopedia). Its magic resistance is of the uniform sort, equally effective regardless of the level of the spell or its caster; there is always a 30% chance that a spell will fail against it.

These agile creatures can dodge ordinary missiles or knock them out of the air on a roll of 8 or better on 1d20. They have prehensile paws and flexible joints, and may climb walls as 10th-level thieves. If they fall, they take no damage for the first 30’ of the descent, taking normal damage afterwards (4d6 for 40’) etc.). Rummeles cannot be surprised because of their keen senses and high dexterity.

A rummele looks somewhat like a longlimbed, shaggy dog with pendant ears and a long, slender muzzle. Its woolly coat may be of almost any color, and it has shiny black eyes. A rummele’s charisma is 19 with respect to other canids (dogs, wolves, etc.), including intelligent or magical beasts like winter wolves, and it can communicate with any dog, wolf, jackal, or fox. Though it is voiceless in its natural form, the rummele has telepathy (as per the psionic discipline). Because of its fondness for humans and demi-humans, a rummele sometimes travels polymorphed as them. The astute and informed may recognize a polymorphed rummele by its prominent nose and bright black eyes, which are retained even in polymorphed form. If it learns that it has been identified, however, a rummele will almost always leave the area.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #94 (1985).


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2010)

These should be fairly easy.  We can probably modify the blink dog's stats (Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 11) slightly.  Compared to a 2e blink dog, the damage is doubled, Int skews 2 points higher, bonus hp are 8 better, and AC is 1 better.  

So maybe Str 18, Dex 19, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 13?



> It may also activate the following spell-like powers at will, one per round, at the 6th level of ability: detect evil/good, diminution (as per the potion), enemy detection (as the wand), find the path (or its reverse), haste (once per day), invisibility, polymorph other (once per day), and polymorph self (to humanlike form only).




That polymorph self should become change shape, like a genie.  Diminution could work like reduce self, but apply to the rummele.

I'm not sure what to do with enemy detection.



> A rummele may also create food and drink and other non-metallic items as a djinni does.




That would be...

1/day—create food and water, create wine (as create water, but wine instead), major creation (created vegetable matter is permanent).



> A rummele has infravision and ultravision out to 90’, and can regenerate 1 hp per turn. This regenerative power can be transferred to one other being, by touch, for as long as physical contact is maintained.




Darkvision 90 ft. and low-light vision?

I think fast healing makes more sense here than regeneration.



> The rummele is immune to diseases, poisons, effects of the Positive and Negative Material Planes (including life-level draining), and to petrification and polymorph effects.




Immunity to death effects, disease, poison, petrification, and polymorph?  

Borrow this?

Divine Equilibrium (Ex): Movanic devas are immune to the effects of negative-dominant or positive-dominant planar energy traits (see Chapter 1 in Manual of the Planes).



> It is immune to certain will-force spells as if it had a 20 wisdom (see the DEITIES & DEMIGODS. Cyclopedia).




I'll have to look this up.



> These agile creatures can dodge ordinary missiles or knock them out of the air on a roll of 8 or better on 1d20.




Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat?  Maybe evasion or improved evasion?



> They have prehensile paws and flexible joints, and may climb walls as 10th-level thieves. If they fall, they take no damage for the first 30’ of the descent, taking normal damage afterwards (4d6 for 40’) etc.).




We can just give 'em a climb speed for the former, and slow fall like a monk for the latter.



> Rummeles cannot be surprised because of their keen senses and high dexterity.




Racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jun 8, 2010)

So is this going to be an outsider or extraplanar magical beast? (My guess would be outsider, since the hell hound, yeth hound, shadow mastiff, vorr, and moon dog all are.)


----------



## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

I agree with you on basically everything.  I feel like we've done something with or similar to enemy detection recently -- minidragons maybe?  Improved evasion, I think.

Edit: ninja'd by GrayLinnorm!  Yeah, I guess it seems like it should be an outsider if a shadow mastiff is.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 8, 2010)

I remember these fellows as having a particularly embarrassing illustration in _Dragon's_ Creature Catalog II.

EDIT: I checked the magazine and its picture's not bad for art of that period, it's certainly better than some of the monster illustrations in that issue! I suspect I got it mixed up with another canine monster. Maybe that dog with hands and a human face that goes around stealing magic items? :ENDEDIT

Anyhow, I'm agreeing with most of the things I see so far. Outsider is the way to go, methinks.

As for the enemy detection, I would give them the psionic power _detect hostile intent_ or a Su power with the same effects.


----------



## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

Detect hostile intent or similar Su makes a lot of sense to me.


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2010)

Interesting.  Blink dogs are magical beasts, yet the rest of the evidence you presented clearly indicates outsider is the right choice here.

Added to Homebrews.

Whew!  <mops sweat off forehead>


----------



## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

Wow, looking really good!  

For skills: Climb, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim?

Want to do something with the "transferral of fast healing" bit?  Also, I'm not sure if there's a better name for the divine equilibrium SQ.


----------



## Shade (Jun 10, 2010)

Swap Swim for Concentration (since they already have a +8 racial bonus on Swim and have some combat-oriented SLAs), and I'm in agreement.

Yeah, "divine equilibrium" seems off here.  Since the two planes are collectively called "Energy Planes", how about "Energy Plane Equilibrium" or "Energy Plane Adaptation"?

How's this?

Shared Fast Healing (Su):  A rummele may transfer its fast healing ability to another creature.  To do so, the rummele must remain in physical contact with the recipient for a full round.  The recipient benefits from the rummele's fast healing ability as if it possessed that special quality.  While another benefits from the shared fast healing, the rummele is considered to lack that special quality.  The shared fast healing continues as long as the rummele and the recipient remain in contact, and takes no action on either's part.


----------



## freyar (Jun 10, 2010)

That all sounds good to me.  Energy Plane Adaptation has a nice ring to it.


----------



## Shade (Jun 10, 2010)

Updated.

Suggested amount of racial bonus for Listen and Spot checks?

Feats: Deflect Arrows (B), 2 more



> A rummele’s charisma is 19 with respect to other canids (dogs, wolves, etc.), including intelligent or magical beasts like winter wolves, and it can communicate with any dog, wolf, jackal, or fox.




Adapt this?

Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or dire animals of their animal form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."



> Though it is voiceless in its natural form, the rummele has telepathy (as per the psionic discipline).




How about...

A rummele understands Celestial, but cannot speak due to its lack of a voice.  It can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language.


----------



## freyar (Jun 11, 2010)

+4?

Maybe Track and Negotiator?

The rest sounds good.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Suggested amount of racial bonus for Listen and Spot checks?




+4 would suit me.



Shade said:


> Feats: Deflect Arrows (B), 2 more




Yeth Hounds, Shadow Mastiffs and Hound Archons all have Improved Initiative, which suggests Rummele should too.

Track as a bonus feat would seem to make sense.

Combat Reflexes for the other feat? Or swap the Int and Wisdom around and give them Combat Expertise?



Shade said:


> Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or dire animals of their animal form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."




Okay, so call it "Canid Empathy" and extend it to magical beasts?
*
Canid Empathy (Ex):* In any form, rummeles can communicate and  empathize with any canine or dog-like animal, dire animal or magical beast (dogs, shadow mastiffs, dire wolves et cetera). This gives  them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal's attitude  and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is  friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."


----------



## freyar (Jun 13, 2010)

Cleon's feat alternatives are fine if we want to go the combat route (Reflexes over Expertise, though, somehow feels better).  I wasn't terribly happy with my suggestions in the first place.

Canid empathy would be good, except shadow mastiffs are Outsiders (as GrayLinnorm pointed out).  Do we want to include the Outsiders, like hell hounds and yeth hounds?  Somehow that doesn't seem quite right.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Cleon's feat alternatives are fine if we want to go the combat route (Reflexes over Expertise, though, somehow feels better).  I wasn't terribly happy with my suggestions in the first place.
> 
> Canid empathy would be good, except shadow mastiffs are Outsiders (as GrayLinnorm pointed out).  Do we want to include the Outsiders, like hell hounds and yeth hounds?  Somehow that doesn't seem quite right.




I liked the idea of Rummele canid empathy encompassing canine Outsiders, especially as it's a canine Outsider itself.

It'll let it pal up with Hound Archons!


----------



## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

That's fine, but I don't think it should work on evil canid outsiders.  But, really, since the hound archons are also quite Intelligent, do they need the empathy to team up with them?


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Good call on Track as a bonus feat.  Should we give it wolflike tracking bonuses via scent as well?

Let's stick with Imp. Init and Combat Reflexes for the non-bonus feats.

I agree on leaving off outsiders on canid empathy.  Most (if not all) canine outsiders will have a language or telepathy anyway.  And hound archons have _tongues_, so they can speak with anything.  

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

I'd say yes on the scent tracking bonus.

Looks pretty good.  I'm thinking CR 4 is about right, though the baleful polymorph may be worth a boost.

For org: pack?  

Advancement: I'm not opposed to HD advancement, though I definitely want character class advancement.


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Advancement: I'm not opposed to HD advancement, though I definitely want character class advancement.




Why's that?  They lack opposable thumbs, after all.


----------



## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Basically, they really sound like good cohorts (for a highish level party) or just sort of planar wanderers.  Plus, they seem to spend a good deal of time shapeshifted into humanoid form anyway.


----------



## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Fair enough.  Let's go with both HD advancement and "by character class".  LA looks quite high...+7 or +8 by my estimates.


----------



## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

And racial HD. Wow, that's gonna hurt. 

6-10 HD (Medium), 11-15 HD (Large)?


----------



## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Updated.

A rummele is x feet long, stands 3 feet tall at the shoulder, and weighs x pounds. 

Blink dogs have no height/weight given?

A typical hell hound stands 4-1/2 feet high at the shoulder and weighs 120 pounds.

A shadow mastiff is slightly more than 2 feet high at the shoulder and weighs about 200 pounds.

A yeth hound stands 5 feet tall at the shoulder and weighs about 400 pounds.


----------



## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Shadow mastiffs are rather dense, aren't they?  And hell hounds seem rather anorexic.

Shall we drop the length and go with 80lb?  That comes from scaling the yeth hound.


----------



## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

That works for me.  Updated.  Finished?


----------



## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

I think so.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Shadow mastiffs are rather dense, aren't they?  And hell hounds seem rather anorexic.
> 
> Shall we drop the length and go with 80lb?  That comes from scaling the yeth hound.




80 pounds is awfully light for a dog that's 3 feet tall at the shoulder. That's more the weight of an robust German shepherd and they're about 2 feet tall.

I'd prefer around 180 pounds for the Rummele, which is actually pretty rangy (but then Rummeles' have a slim wolfhound-like build, going by their picture).


----------



## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

180 it is.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> 180 it is.  Updated.




Come to think of it, the Slow Fall's "A rummele within arm’s reach of a wall" doesn't make a lick of sense if it's in its natural form, which doesn't have arms. Change to "paw's reach"?

Apart from that quibble it's looking pretty finished.

I'm not sure quite about the CR. At-will _invisibility_, _blink _and _dimension door_ plus 1/day _haste _and _baleful polymorph _is a pretty potent combination and their stats are pretty good.

Maybe CR 5?


----------



## freyar (Jun 17, 2010)

CR 5 is ok with me.  Baleful polymorph is hefty, too, and the DC is high enough.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> CR 5 is ok with me.  Baleful polymorph is hefty, too, and the DC is high enough.




That's what I was thinking. Apply those changes and I think they're done.


----------



## Shade (Jun 17, 2010)

"Paw's reach" and CR 5 work for me.  Updated.

Here's the next one...

*Forchoreai *
FREQUENCY: Common on Happy Hunting Grounds; very rare elsewhere
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 33”
HIT DICE: 4 + 10
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 6-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise 95% of the time
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Rarely surprised, regeneration, spell use, save as a 10th-level cleric, +1 on reactions
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
SIZE: L (7’ tall at shoulder)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: V/330 + 5/hp

Forchoreai (for-KOR-ee-aye) are creatures found on the Happy Hunting Grounds, residing there naturally along with unicorns, pegasi, and scores of odd varieties of wildlife. Forchoreai appear to be large, white or gray stags, with pearly antlers valued as high as 750 gp per set on the Prime Material Plane.

Forchoreai are very quick; this is the reason for their low armor class and superior saving throws. They gain a +1 on all reaction throws, and are surprised only on a 1 in 8 chance. They regenerate at a rate of 2 hp/round and move silently, hear noise, and hide in terrain (like hide in shadows) as a 17th-level thief, surprising opponents 95% of the time. In addition, they have the following spell-like powers which they cast, one at a time, once per round, at the 10th level of ability: detect snares and pits, nondetection, pass without trace, protection from evil, and speak with plants and animals.  Once per day, they may use invisibility mirror image, misdirection, and plant door. A forchoreai may cast heal on any being but itself, once per week. The powers above will work on the wildlife and residents of both the Happy Hunting Grounds and the Prime Material Plane.

Forchoreai that are killed as part of a hunt on the Happy Hunting Grounds will be resurrected after a period of three days. This is a common trait of many of the animal-like creatures of this plane, which are hunted for sport and in ritual by the plane’s inhabitants. Forchoreai will only fight if cornered, and then only with their powerful antlers. 

These beasts are very rarely encountered on the Prime Material Plane, usually in the service of a powerful, good (but non-lawful) ranger or elf. The circumstances under which such a character may gain a forchoreai vary, but such help can be had but once in a person’s lifetime.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #101 (1985).


Magical Beast (Extraplanar) or Outsider?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jun 17, 2010)

Magical beast.


----------



## freyar (Jun 18, 2010)

I like magical beast, but I might have to go with outsider in parallel with the achaierai.  Hmmph.


----------



## Shade (Jun 18, 2010)

These seem more "beastly" to me, for some reason.

Speed translates to 90 feet.  



> Forchoreai are very quick; this is the reason for their low armor class and superior saving throws. They gain a +1 on all reaction throws, and are surprised only on a 1 in 8 chance.




Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat and/or something like unearthly grace?  Racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks?

Maybe also add evasion/improved evasion and/or uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge?



> They regenerate at a rate of 2 hp/round and move silently, hear noise, and hide in terrain (like hide in shadows) as a 17th-level thief, surprising opponents 95% of the time.




Fast healing or regeneration?  If the latter, overcome by lawful or evil weapons?

It sounds like a good racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks.



> In addition, they have the following spell-like powers which they cast, one at a time, once per round, at the 10th level of ability: detect snares and pits, nondetection, pass without trace, protection from evil, and speak with plants and animals. Once per day, they may use invisibility mirror image, misdirection, and plant door. A forchoreai may cast heal on any being but itself, once per week. The powers above will work on the wildlife and residents of both the Happy Hunting Grounds and the Prime Material Plane.




Those all seem pretty straightforward.



> Forchoreai that are killed as part of a hunt on the Happy Hunting Grounds will be resurrected after a period of three days. This is a common trait of many of the animal-like creatures of this plane, which are hunted for sport and in ritual by the plane’s inhabitants. Forchoreai will only fight if cornered, and then only with their powerful antlers.




Rejuvenation?

Some comparable creatures for ability scores:

Elk (Silver Marches version): Str 14, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Elk (Dragon #333 version): Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 6
White Hart: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18

Int converts to 11-12.  The white hart is a Large, 7 HD magical beast, so is quite comparable.  Perhaps modify its stats a bit?   Probably boost the Dex due to this creature's amazing alacrity?


----------



## freyar (Jun 18, 2010)

Lightning Reflexes as a bonus sounds right, but unearthly grace doesn't quite fit the description.  Evasion and uncanny dodge would, though.  I like those for these guys.  A racial bonus on those skills or Imp Init as a bonus are fair ideas.

I prefer fast healing (that kind of regen sounds more "outsiderly") unless we're adding an alignment subtype maybe.  Those skill bonuses sound good too.

Take the white hart, maybe decrease Str to 18 and boost Dex to 23?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 19, 2010)

Yes, these feel like a Magical Beast to me too.

The White Hart seems a good fit statwise. Boost its Dexterity to 25 or so? Maybe cut its Charisma a little - but not by too much, since it has SLAs. 

Wisdom 10 seems distressingly low, so I'd increase it a bit.

How about:

*Forchoreai:* Str 20, Dex 25, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 16


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Base damage was 6d4, which suggests powerful charge in this edition.  Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Jun 21, 2010)

Well, powerful charge does sound right.  I guess we should go damage something like a minotaur (or somewhat less), so 1d8 for the gore and maybe +3d6 (and Str bonus when appropriate) for powerful charge, maybe.  How's that sound?  It's the same average damage as 6d4.


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

Sounds good.  Updated.

How's this?

Rejuvenation (Su): A forchoreai slain on its home plane always returns in full health in 3 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. The only way to permanently destroy a forchoreai is to land the killing blow while on another plane.

Skills: 21 ranks
White Hart has Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Deer and Elk have Hide, Listen, Spot

Feats: Lightning Reflexes (B), 2 more
White Hart has Alertness, Dash (B), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
Deer have Alertness
Elk have Alertness (or Run, for the alt-version) and Endurance


----------



## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

Hide, Listen, and Spot seem appropriate.

As they're hunted for sport, Endurance seems like a good choice.  And either Alertness or Imp Init to help them get a head start on their hunters.


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

How about:  Hide 7, Listen 5, Move Silently 4, Spot 5, with a +8 racial bonus on all four?  Or do we need to put a few ranks in Concentration for the SLAs?


----------



## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

We should probably pull a couple of ranks for Concentration, since there are a few combat-worthy SLAs.  What about Concentration 5, Hide 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Spot 4?

The more I think about it, the more I like Run as a feat for them.  So Run and Endurance?


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Those seem a good fit to me!

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 3?

Advancement: 5-12 HD (Large)?

A forchoreai stands 7 feet tall at the shoulder and weighs x pounds.

Forchoreai speak/do not speak (but understand) Celestial?


----------



## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

That sounds reasonable.   Moose can be up to 7ft and almost 1600 lb, so let's say 1500 lb.  And let's say that they don't speak.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm liking everything so far.


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Updated.

Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Jun 23, 2010)

My quick reading tells me they're done, but maybe Cleon will find an edit.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> My quick reading tells me they're done, but maybe Cleon will find an edit.




Nope, they look sound to me.


----------



## Shade (Jun 23, 2010)

*Hurgeon*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 8-32
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 6.
HIT DICE: 2-5 hp
%. IN LAIR: 40%
TREASURE TYPE: M (x10) and X (in lair)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 2 (weapons)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Missiles; spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell use; invisible in natural terrain
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
INTELLIGENCE: Average to exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
SIZE: S (1’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: II/38 + 1/hp

Hurgeons are small creatures that resemble hedgehogs, though they walk erect on their hind feet and have hands for forepaws. They are dark brown in color and have bright brown eyes. These creatures speak their own language and can speak with any animal naturally. About 20% of them know the elven or Common languages, and 5% know the secret tongue of the druids. 

Hurgeons live deep in woodland areas far from civilized places, and they make their burrows in the soil beneath the largest trees. The burrow entrances are so skillfully camouflaged with flowers and leaves that only spells or devices that detect invisible objects will locate them. Hurgeons gather local nuts, fruits, and berries, and several types of edible roots for their meals. Their vegetarian and inoffensive natures allow them to make friends with local woodland creatures and make arrangements for mutual assistance with them in times of need.

Hurgeons are tool-users and construct elaborate underground dwellings with numerous rooms branching off from the main tunnel. Work aprons and belts made from leaves or softened bark are often worn. If attacked, hurgeons use tiny daggers (1-2 hp damage) to defend themselves. Many carry slingshots that have an 80-yard range (with no range penalties) and inflict 1 hp of damage per shot; two shots may be fired per round. They may use animal friendship, invisibility to animals, faerie fire, locate animals and plants, and pass without trace as often as they desire, one spell per melee round, at the 6th level of effect. They may also cast an entangle spell once per day at the 6th level of effect.

Half of the hurgeons encountered in their lair will be male and half will be female. To the casual observer, both sexes are exactly alike; only druids can tell them apart. There will be 4-10 children in the community as well, though they are usually kept indoors or in the immediate vicinity of the burrow. The only contact that hurgeons have with other humans or demi-humans is nearly always through sylvan elves and druids (who love and respect the “hedgehog folk”) or humans lost in the woods. Some wanderers in deep forests claim to have witnessed hurgeons performing a springtime dancing ritual in woodland clearings, forming circular paths that are called “fairie rings”.

If a druid of 12th level or above encounters a hurgeon colony and performs a great service for the members, one of the hurgeons may follow the druid and become a companion to him. Though the hurgeon will not have a telepathic link to the druid, it will help the druid in whatever way it can and act as a guide in unfamiliar territory. The possibility that this will occur in a given situation is left to the Dungeon Master’s discretion.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #94 (1985).


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jun 24, 2010)

Fey?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 24, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Fey?




Yes, Fey makes the most sense. They even produce "faerie rings".


----------



## Cleon (Jun 24, 2010)

Okay, the first question is size.

Their 1-foot height and 1-2 damage daggers clearly says "Tiny".

That suggest basing the abilities on a Grig.

*Grig:* Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14

I'd cut the Dexterity quite a bit (since hedgehogs aren't exactly agile but Grig's are hyperactive hoppers) but the Str and Con looks OK.

They're pretty smart (Average-Exceptional is Int 8-16). That average to 12, 

So how about giving them -4 Dex and +2 Int and Wis compared to a Grig?

*Hurgeon:* Str 5, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 14

As for the rest of it, I'd give them a special "sling of speed" that is only usable by a Hurgeon, kind of like a Grig's fiddle or a Pixie's special arrows. Something like:

*Hurgeon Sling:* Hurgeons usually carry special enchanted slings. A hurgeon sling functions as a tiny _+1 sling of speed _in the hands of a hurgeon, but has no special properties when wielded by a non-hurgeon.

The "invisible in natural terrain" in the Special Defences is a bit confusing - I'm thinking it refers to their burrows being invisible, not the Hurgeon, as they only seem to have _invisibility to animals _as a SLA.


----------



## freyar (Jun 24, 2010)

This is all pretty reasonable so far.  I also think Cleon's right about the invisibility in natural terrain referring to the burrow.  We can go two ways on that.  Some kind of "Burrow Camouflage" ability vs Spot/Know (nature) or an Su ability that really makes the burrow invisible.  What do you all think?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> This is all pretty reasonable so far.  I also think Cleon's right about the invisibility in natural terrain referring to the burrow.  We can go two ways on that.  Some kind of "Burrow Camouflage" ability vs Spot/Know (nature) or an Su ability that really makes the burrow invisible.  What do you all think?




Well detect invisible objects locates the burrow so I'm thinking supernatural. I'm thinking it's most likely a glamer resembling _invisibility_ or _hallucinatory terrain_.


----------



## freyar (Jun 30, 2010)

You almost make it sound Sp.


----------



## Shade (Jun 30, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Should we give 'em a burrow speed?  If so, 10 feet?

For the "hidden burrows", I like basing it off hallucinatory terrain.  We could just give it to 'em as a 1/day SLA at CL 12th, which would last 24 hours.  Otherwise, we could make a special "always active" effect upon any burrow they create.



> These creatures speak their own language and can speak with any animal naturally. About 20% of them know the elven or Common languages, and 5% know the secret tongue of the druids.




Hurgeons speak Sylvan, Elven, and Common?   Speak with animals as at will SLA?



> Hurgeons gather local nuts, fruits, and berries, and several types of edible roots for their meals. Their vegetarian and inoffensive natures allow them to make friends with local woodland creatures and make arrangements for mutual assistance with them in times of need.




It sounds like skills should include Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), and Survival.



> Hurgeons are tool-users and construct elaborate underground dwellings with numerous rooms branching off from the main tunnel.




Knowledge (dungeoneering) and/or Knowledge (architecture and engineering)?



> They may use animal friendship, invisibility to animals, faerie fire, locate animals and plants, and pass without trace as often as they desire, one spell per melee round, at the 6th level of effect. They may also cast an entangle spell once per day at the 6th level of effect.




We'll need 3.5 replacements for animal friendship and locate animals and plants.

Perhaps replace animal friendship with wild empathy?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Should we give 'em a burrow speed?  If so, 10 feet?
> 
> For the "hidden burrows", I like basing it off hallucinatory terrain.   We could just give it to 'em as a 1/day SLA at CL 12th, which would last  24 hours.  Otherwise, we could make a special "always active" effect  upon any burrow they create.




I wouldn't give them a burrow speed. Plenty of creatures dig burrows without having a burrow speed.

As for the hidden burrow, I was thinking a power that takes it X hours to create a burrow entrance and it has to spend Y minutes per day to maintain it, although the 1/day for 24 hour approach is OK. Supernatural suits me better than Spell-Like though.



Shade said:


> Hurgeons speak Sylvan, Elven, and Common?   Speak with animals as at will SLA?
> 
> It sounds like skills should include Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), and Survival.
> 
> Knowledge (dungeoneering) and/or Knowledge (architecture and engineering)?




The languages are fine, including _speak with animals_. Should we note that some can speak Druidic?

Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), and Survival are all good, and obviously we'll want Hide, Move Silently, Spot & Listen too.

Don't think Knowledge (dungeoneering) or Knowledge (architecture and  engineering) fit.



Shade said:


> We'll need 3.5 replacements for animal friendship and locate animals and plants.
> 
> Perhaps replace animal friendship with wild empathy?




Wild Empathy is a good solution, for the locate animals and plants I was thinking:

*Locate Animals and Plants (Sp):* This power works like the _locate creature_ spell except it can only locate animals and plants. It can locate mundane plants as well as Plant creatures such as treants. A hurgeon can locate animals and plants X times per day, this power is the equivalent of an Y level spell with caster level Z.


----------



## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

Let's just go with 4 ranks in each of the skills Cleon identified.

Updated.

How does this revision look?

Locate Animals and Plants (Sp): Three times per day, a hurgeon can locate a creature of a specific kind or a specific creature known to it. This works like the locate creature spell, except it can only locate creatures of the animal and plant types. It can locate mundane plants as with the locate object spell. This is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell (caster level 6th).


For the "hidden burrow", if we make it Su rather than Sp, the save DC will be 4 worse.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's just go with 4 ranks in each of the skills Cleon identified.




Fine by me.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/5228695-post971.html


Shade said:


> How does this revision look?
> 
> Locate Animals and Plants (Sp): Three times per day, a hurgeon can locate a creature of a specific kind or a specific creature known to it. This works like the locate creature spell, except it can only locate creatures of the animal and plant types. It can locate mundane plants as with the locate object spell. This is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell (caster level 6th).




The "a creature of a specific kind or a specific creature" reads a trifle oddly. CL 6th feels too low for a 4th level spell, I'd either make the spell 3rd level or increase the CL to 8th or so.

How about...

Locate Animals and Plants (Sp): Three times per day, a hurgeon can  locate a creature of a specific kind (e.g. a wolf) or an individual creature known to it.  This works like the _locate creature_ spell, except it can only locate  creatures of the animal and plant types. This spell-like ability can also locate mundane plants as per the locate object spell. This is the equivalent of a 4th-level  spell (caster level 6th).



Shade said:


> For the "hidden burrow", if we make it Su rather than Sp, the save DC will be 4 worse.




Well you could always give it a +4 racial bonus on the DC.

Okay, I'm only joking. I don't mind making it a (Sp) if our prefer. It's not like this is something a hurgeon will use in combat.


----------



## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

Updated.

Feats: Dodge (B), Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more
I borrowed the bonus feats from the grig.  I can see dropping Dodge, but think we should keep Finesse.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Feats: Dodge (B), Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more
> I borrowed the bonus feats from the grig.  I can see dropping Dodge, but think we should keep Finesse.




I'd drop the Dodge bonus feat, they're not nimble little hoppers like Grigs and only have 20 ft. speed.

Maybe Great Fortitude for their feat? There's something about them that makes me think they're hardy little fellows.


----------



## freyar (Jul 5, 2010)

Looks pretty good.  I agree to dropping Dodge and taking Great Fort for the feat.


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 1?

Treasure: 50% coins, no goods, standard items?
M (x10) works out to 20-80 gold pieces, while X is 1 misc. magic item plus 1 potion

Advancement: 2–3 HD (Tiny)?

Level Adjustment: +3?  They are at least as good as a grig.

A hurgeon stands 1 foot tall and weighs x pounds.


----------



## freyar (Jul 6, 2010)

I'll go with all that and add a weight of 5-7 lb.


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

Organization: Gang (2–4), band (6–11), or x (8–32 plus 2-10 noncombatant young)

Any idea what a group of hedgehogs is called?


----------



## freyar (Jul 7, 2010)

According to this site, it's an array.


----------



## Shade (Jul 7, 2010)

An array it is, then.  Updated.

All done?


----------



## freyar (Jul 8, 2010)

Looks good to go.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good to go.




I second the motion!


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


----------

