# A Technical Look at D&D Insider Applications



## Scholar & Brutalman

A new Design and Development on D&D Insider by Didier Monin.

Edit: after reading through this I can't say I'm feeling the awesome.


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## Phoenix8008

I can hear the echo of outrage building and getting ready to explode over the net due to this part...



			
				Didier Monin said:
			
		

> When you purchase the printed book, a code will grant access to the E-version of the book *for a nominal fee*.



How unhappy I'll be about paying for the book twice depends entirely on how _nominal_ their fee is ...


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## Scholar & Brutalman

Phoenix8008 said:
			
		

> How unhappy I'll be about paying for the book twice depends entirely on how _nominal_ their fee is ...




Wizards have mentioned the fee before. They said  "Nominal" means "about the price of a cup of coffee." 

I have no problem with that part of DDI, or even the Dragon and Dungeon online as long as the content improves.


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## MonkeeGalore

I must admit that so far I'm thrilled and exited about almost everything 4ed so far. But the D&D Insider - It just sounds like something I would never use. 

I think a lot of the thoughs about the virtual gametable looks good though, such as the ability to customize it depending on playstyle. Looks like they're trying to make a practical tool for online gaming instead of making a lavish, advanced application that in return dictates how to play the game. A good approach in my opinion. 

The encounter builder looks interesting, too.

But (and this have been mentioned before, I think), nominal fees for using books you already bought, even the _thought_ of random boosters of digital miniatures etc. Not so good. 

In the end, I think that I don't really need all that stuff - but it's interesting to follow. If they're able to make a really good suite of applications, that are easy to use, very customizable etc. it will be great.


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## JediSoth

> They said "Nominal" means "about the price of a cup of coffee."




A cup of coffee can vary wildly. Is it Starbucks? Gas station? How much you would actually pay to make a cup of coffee at home?

It sounds to me not only do they want a different, younger target audience, but they want one with more money, as well.

JediSoth


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## Mouseferatu

Phoenix8008 said:
			
		

> I can hear the echo of outrage building and getting ready to explode over the net due to this part...




Eh. I have an honest question.

Why _shouldn't_ WotC charge a "nominal fee" for such things?

For those who don't want to pay it, you still have the book--exactly what you paid for, and exactly what you would've gotten if the DDI didn't exist.

But if WotC is offering extras such as an online copy of the book--and that _is_ an extra, above and beyond what anyone has any right to _expect_ when buying a hardcopy of said book--I believe they're well within their rights to charge for it.



> How unhappy I'll be about paying for the book twice depends entirely on how _nominal_ their fee is ...




I agree that I certainly wouldn't pay full price for the same book twice. (Not that WotC's given any indication they're charging anywhere near that much.) But even if they did, I wouldn't be "outraged." I just wouldn't take advantage of the option.

If it's a couple of bucks per book, that's more than reasonable, given the average cost of electronic/PDF books in the industry.


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## Echohawk

I'm happy to pay the cost of even an expensive cup of coffee for access to electronic versions of crunch I've already paid for. Based on my experience with RPG tools like E-Tools and PC Gen, entering data for anything more than a handful of new spells/classes is a major pain.

I'm also significantly more likely to use the book that a new spell/class/feat comes from if I can see that spell/class/feat as an option in the electronic tools. So I'll be getting more mileage out of my books too.


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## CharlesRyan

Keep in mind also that the nominal fee creates accountability that, in the end, protects you.

By charging a small fee, WotC makes it impossible to anonymously take ownership of the digital version of the book. Anyone who enters a code to get the digital version must identify themselves in a real, positive manner (through the use of a credit card or other verifiable payment scheme). That makes the fee one of (probably several) roadblocks to piracy.

[And before this blossoms into a discussion of intellectual property rights, remember this: What you're downloading is a unique digital object assigned to the book you bought. If somebody steals that, they've stolen your right to access the digital version of the book. YOU are the loser in a very real way, not some giant corporation is a very intangible way.]

[And before this blossoms into a discussion of how the pirates always find a way, remember this: This will not be perfect in preventing piracy, and neither will any of the other steps WotC takes. But, combined, they're intended to keep theft to a minimum. WotC has a lot of experience with digital objects (via Magic Online), so their overall system will probably be pretty effective.]

So the requirement to purchase increases the likelihood that when I buy a book, the code to obtain the digital version is likely to still be valid when I take the book home and type it into DDI. That alone seems to be worth an extra buck or two.


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## Charles Dunwoody

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Eh. I have an honest question.
> 
> Why _shouldn't_ WotC charge a "nominal fee" for such things?
> 
> For those who don't want to pay it, you still have the book--exactly what you paid for, and exactly what you would've gotten if the DDI didn't exist.
> 
> But if WotC is offering extras such as an online copy of the book--and that _is_ an extra, above and beyond what anyone has any right to _expect_ when buying a hardcopy of said book--I believe they're well within their rights to charge for it.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that I certainly wouldn't pay full price for the same book twice. (Not that WotC's given any indication they're charging anywhere near that much.) But even if they did, I wouldn't be "outraged." I just wouldn't take advantage of the option.
> 
> If it's a couple of bucks per book, that's more than reasonable, given the average cost of electronic/PDF books in the industry.




Of course Wizards can charge any price they want for anything they sell. However, Paizo, a much smaller company, offers free PDFs to me when I buy the paper copy of Pathfinder by subscription.

If I'm already paying for online content why not get my PDFs free from Wizards as well if I buy the paper copy of a book? As a consumer I think that is a very good question. Why does Paizo give me a better deal than Wizards when Wizards is bigger, sells more, and controls a large portion of the market?


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## Charwoman Gene

Nothing new here, just the standard info we've known for weeks, reposted.

Wizards said they range from cheap deli coffee to Starbucks in price.  They were attaching it to a variable.


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## Charwoman Gene

Kravell said:
			
		

> Why does Paizo give me a better deal than Wizards when Wizards is bigger, sells more, and controls a large portion of the market?




Umm, this question answers itself.


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## amethal

That's a pretty good set of aspirations.

I like the fact that quite a few of the applications are free. It allows me to adopt this whole internet thing at my own pace, moving on to subscription only if and when I feel ready.

However, I imagine it will be a bug riddled nightmare for the next couple of years. I suppose I'm a bit lacking in faith.


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## Aloïsius

hum.... Nothing new. I fear the virtual game table won't be able to manage 3d deplacement. So  I won't use it because that won't be an improvement. Of course, If I was not able to meet my player IRL, I would reconsider this.


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## DaveMage

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Eh. I have an honest question.
> 
> Why _shouldn't_ WotC charge a "nominal fee" for such things?




Because if you subscribe to the D&D Insider, you are already paying a monthly fee.  It'd be like paying for a news service, but having to pay more if you want to access certain feature articles.

I can *understand* it, but since I'm already paying, it would be nice not to be nickel-and-dimed for parts of the same whole.


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## Aeolius

Meh. Somebody wake me up when this thing runs native on my Mac, supports movement in three dimensions, and has support for non-core PC races.


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## JoelF

I'm still waiting to find out the subscription model and to see if you can subscribe to only parts of D&DI.  I'd love the character generator, but could care less about the tabletop and I'm still not convinced about the new Dungeon and Dragon magazine - maybe I'll want one of them only or none.


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## Meatpuppet

> Because *the other* D&D Insider applications are not DirectX driven, they should also be usable on Mac computers using the dual boot system.




I'm suprised.

Wouldn't everything D&D insider has to offer (including the game table) work on an intel Mac with dual boot?

When you install windows on your Mac using boot camp doesn't it install DirectX?


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## (contact)

Aeolius said:
			
		

> Meh. Somebody wake me up when this thing runs native on my Mac, supports movement in three dimensions, and has support for non-core PC races.










All in all, I'm pleased to see that there were no dropped functions (coughetoolscough) and that the Dungeon Tiles application is looking good.  I'll be looking forward to hearing how it runs.  I wish I could use it -- I've got a number of pals from this site that I could be playing with online.

For me, I have no problem with paying a little extra for a digital version of a DnD book, provided I get a searchable .pdf that I can store locally.  I would't pay for a database upgrade to an already sketchy online service.


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## Maggan

Meatpuppet said:
			
		

> I'm suprised.




I'm not. I've stopped being surprised at how many non-Mac people can't keep the different options on the Mac apart.   

I think he is talking about running Windows in Parallells or VMware, but thinking that is called "dual boot".

And even so, DirectX support is available for both those solutions, so basically if you have an Intel Mac, you have the option of running the DDI under Windows either as dual boot or as a virtual machine, without any loss of functionality.

/M


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## Charwoman Gene

Maggan said:
			
		

> you have the option of running the DDI under Windows either as dual boot or as a virtual machine, without any loss of functionality.




Well, except the cost is high.  On the order of $300 between a legal virtualizable copy of windows and the cost for parallels.


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## Festivus

Scholar & Brutalman said:
			
		

> Wizards have mentioned the fee before. They said  "Nominal" means "about the price of a cup of coffee."
> 
> I have no problem with that part of DDI, or even the Dragon and Dungeon online as long as the content improves.




Nor do I, I will pay a few bucks to gain access to additional stuff for books.  What I don't want to see is the code printed on every box of miniatures I buy... and paying a nominal fee for each of those.


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## Dragonblade

Phoenix8008 said:
			
		

> How unhappy I'll be about paying for the book twice depends entirely on how _nominal_ their fee is ...




Considering that you are essentially getting a second copy of the book, I don't see the problem with them charging to at least make up their overhead.

The question I have is how will this affect the used book market? To be fair, if every book has a generic code, it would soon be all over the internet and then no one would buy the book and everyone would pay their "nominal fee" for an e-copy. I don't think this is a good idea for WotC.

But if the code is unique, what's to stop someone from buying the book, using the code, and then selling the book to some hapless buyer who forevermore cannot buy the electronic copy? The used book market will be hurt by this. If you want a book, you are pretty much buying new. No picking up anything from Ebay unless you know that you are not interested in the e-book version.

But in all fairness to WotC, the used book market doesn't pay their bills so why should they go out of their way to accomodate it to the detriment of their business? The bottom line is that WotC designers and staff have to put food on the table. Its not a charity for gamers to take advantage of. Also the physical copy of the book is still useable and buying a used 4e book would really be no different than buying a used 3.5 book.

Also, having a unique code lets WotC provide a reward to those customers who buy new products from them and I don't have a problem with that at all when looking at it from that perspective.


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## Mouseferatu

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> To be fair, if every book has a generic code, it would soon be all over the internet and then no one would buy the book and everyone would pay their "nominal fee" for an e-copy. I don't think this is a good idea for WotC.
> 
> But if the code is unique, what's stop someone from buying the book, using the code, and then selling the book to some hapless buyer who forevermore cannot buy the electronic copy?




You know, I just had a thought...

When I was a kid, a lot of computer games had a security feature to make sure you weren't using a pirated copy. Every time you booted the game up, it asked you a question something like this:

"What is the Xth word in the Yth paragraph on page Z?"

It occurs to me that this might actually be the way to go for WotC. I'm no programmer, but would it be possible to write a script that selected a new question each time? (And even if not, they could still do a list of, oh, 20 rotating/random questions per book, which would at least cut down on the spread of codes throughout the net--it would certainly be slower than the use of a single code would be.)


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## Meatpuppet

Maggan said:
			
		

> I'm not. I've stopped being surprised at how many non-Mac people can't keep the different options on the Mac apart.
> 
> I think he is talking about running Windows in Parallells or VMware, but thinking that is called "dual boot".
> 
> And even so, DirectX support is available for both those solutions, so basically if you have an Intel Mac, you have the option of running the DDI under Windows either as dual boot or as a virtual machine, without any loss of functionality.
> 
> /M




That's what I thought 

Thanks


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## Badkarmaboy

I spend a lot of time overseas or running about in the Army-so the thought of being able to use the V-table to game with my friends is pretty cool.  Since storage space overseas is also somewhat limited, having PDFs for all the books I buy is also a nice deal.

My concern are V-minis.  I DO NOT like the idea of random V-boosters or some crap.  I reckon, if I buy the mini I should be able to pop in a code and get it online.  How that works IRL, I have no idea.


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## Dragonblade

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> You know, I just had a thought...
> 
> When I was a kid, a lot of computer games had a security feature to make sure you weren't using a pirated copy. Every time you booted the game up, it asked you a question something like this:
> 
> "What is the Xth word in the Yth paragraph on page Z?"
> 
> It occurs to me that this might actually be the way to go for WotC. I'm no programmer, but would it be possible to write a script that selected a new question each time? (And even if not, they could still do a list of, oh, 20 rotating/random questions per book, which would at least cut down on the spread of codes throughout the net--it would certainly be slower than the use of a single code would be.)




That is an interesting idea, but with the proliferation of PDF pirated copies of their books online, I think WotC might prefer to go with the unique code route and just have marketing spin it as a bonus for people who buy new books, rather than a liability for people buying used books.

The only problem I see is that it pretty much requires them to shrink wrap their books. Otherwise, you could just go to Barnes and Noble, copy the code out of a book and then use the code online. Then that customer who did buy the book in good faith is screwed. I would be extremely upset and demand a new code from WotC if that happened to me.

Perhaps a combo of having a unique code and being asked to answer a page reference question like you suggest is a good way to do it but that seems burdonsome.


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## tensen

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> It occurs to me that this might actually be the way to go for WotC. I'm no programmer, but would it be possible to write a script that selected a new question each time? (And even if not, they could still do a list of, oh, 20 rotating/random questions per book, which would at least cut down on the spread of codes throughout the net--it would certainly be slower than the use of a single code would be.)




You do realize that at that point there were so many more innovative ways of bypassing the security.  I remember photocopies and manually assembled spinning codewheels for some of the first commodore 64 games.  That sort of security only hinders its use for the paying customers.


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## DaveMage

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> "What is the Xth word in the Yth paragraph on page Z?"




Empire!

Man, I loved that game....


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## Dragonblade

I got it. WotC could put a sealed enevelope in the back of their books with a unique code in it. Then when you use the code to purchase the online copy of the book, it gets a digital watermark identifying you as the owner.

Buyers are protected by knowing whether the code has been open and used, and WotC knows who is responsible if a digital copy gets leaked on the web.


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## Kid Charlemagne

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Because if you subscribe to the D&D Insider, you are already paying a monthly fee.  It'd be like paying for a news service, but having to pay more if you want to access certain feature articles.




On the other hand, if you have to be a subscriber to get the PDF, that would upset a whole seperate group of people.  Easier to keep them seperate - that way I don't have to pay for Forgotten Realms/Eberron/whatever-I-might-not-like books without having a choice.


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## Oldtimer

Maggan said:
			
		

> I'm not. I've stopped being surprised at how many non-Mac people can't keep the different options on the Mac apart.
> 
> I think he is talking about running Windows in Parallells or VMware, but thinking that is called "dual boot".
> 
> And even so, DirectX support is available for both those solutions, so basically if you have an Intel Mac, you have the option of running the DDI under Windows either as dual boot or as a virtual machine, without any loss of functionality.
> 
> /M



But the DirectX apps are using DX9 and I think Parallells only do DX8 at the moment, right?


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## Kid Charlemagne

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I'm no programmer, but would it be possible to write a script that selected a new question each time? (And even if not, they could still do a list of, oh, 20 rotating/random questions per book, which would at least cut down on the spread of codes throughout the net--it would certainly be slower than the use of a single code would be.)




Some of the old games did just that.  I think it was probably a list of words, not a completely randomly selected one.


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## Kesh

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Considering that you are essentially getting a second copy of the book, I don't see the problem with them charging to at least make up their overhead.
> 
> The question I have is how will this affect the used book market? To be fair, if every book has a generic code, it would soon be all over the internet and then no one would buy the book and everyone would pay their "nominal fee" for an e-copy. I don't think this is a good idea for WotC.
> 
> But if the code is unique, what's to stop someone from buying the book, using the code, and then selling the book to some hapless buyer who forevermore cannot buy the electronic copy? The used book market will be hurt by this. If you want a book, you are pretty much buying new. No picking up anything from Ebay unless you know that you are not interested in the e-book version.
> 
> But in all fairness to WotC, the used book market doesn't pay their bills so why should they go out of their way to accomodate it to the detriment of their business? The bottom line is that WotC designers and staff have to put food on the table. Its not a charity for gamers to take advantage of. Also the physical copy of the book is still useable and buying a used 4e book would really be no different than buying a used 3.5 book.
> 
> Also, having a unique code lets WotC provide a reward to those customers who buy new products from them and I don't have a problem with that at all when looking at it from that perspective.



 I have a feeling they'll go the generic code route. As already mentioned, there's a number of problems with people copying unique codes out of books on shelves, which would render them useless to the legitimate buyer, and I don't see Wizards shrink-wrapping their hardcovers.

With the generic code + nominal fee, Wizards at least gets _some_ money out of the person who might not otherwise buy the book, and the code stays useful to someone who _does_ buy the book & still wants the e-version. They might lose out on a book sale, but if the overhead on the e-version is nominal they could make enough of a profit off it to offset that loss, at the very least.


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## Raven Crowking

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Keep in mind also that the nominal fee creates accountability that, in the end, protects you.
> 
> By charging a small fee, WotC makes it impossible to anonymously take ownership of the digital version of the book. Anyone who enters a code to get the digital version must identify themselves in a real, positive manner (through the use of a credit card or other verifiable payment scheme). That makes the fee one of (probably several) roadblocks to piracy.
> 
> [And before this blossoms into a discussion of intellectual property rights, remember this: What you're downloading is a unique digital object assigned to the book you bought. If somebody steals that, they've stolen your right to access the digital version of the book. YOU are the loser in a very real way, not some giant corporation is a very intangible way.]
> 
> [And before this blossoms into a discussion of how the pirates always find a way, remember this: This will not be perfect in preventing piracy, and neither will any of the other steps WotC takes. But, combined, they're intended to keep theft to a minimum. WotC has a lot of experience with digital objects (via Magic Online), so their overall system will probably be pretty effective.]
> 
> So the requirement to purchase increases the likelihood that when I buy a book, the code to obtain the digital version is likely to still be valid when I take the book home and type it into DDI. That alone seems to be worth an extra buck or two.





Very well reasoned, Sir.


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## tomBitonti

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Keep in mind also that the nominal fee creates accountability that, in the end, protects you.
> 
> ...
> 
> [And before this blossoms into a discussion of intellectual property rights, remember this: What you're downloading is a unique digital object assigned to the book you bought. If somebody steals that, they've stolen your right to access the digital version of the book. YOU are the loser in a very real way, not some giant corporation is a very intangible way.]
> 
> ...




Without responding overly much to the IP claims, it's not reasonable to present a statement while forbidding others to respond to it.


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## Lackhand

tomBitoni said:
			
		

> Without responding overly much to the IP claims, it's not reasonable to present a statement while forbidding others to respond to it.



More like there are a couple of dimensions to this, and that particular dimension is one which he isn't trying to talk about, but which the conversation will inevitably slide towards. He's trying to evit it.

Besides, he's saying that it's immaterial whether copying a digital file is stealing: if somebody takes the code out of your book and gets the electronic version themselves, you won't be able to get it from wizards. Whether that's stealing or not doesn't matter (though it is poorly worded!) -- if you still want the electronic copy, you'd have to turn to P2P networks, and certainly be put to an imposition, regardless of theft.


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## Scribble

I dion't mind having to pay a "nominal fee" to access the digital version of my book... What's scaring me though, is that it specifically says "As a subscriber, ownership of the E-version gives you access, when you are online, to the rules content while you’re filling out or updating your character sheet."

When I'm online? So it's apparently not a portable digital book, (and most likely not a pdf.)

This is the first thing really that has actually disappointed me so far about the DDI.


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## Riley

Badkarmaboy said:
			
		

> IMy concern are V-minis.  I DO NOT like the idea of random V-boosters or some crap.  I reckon, if I buy the mini I should be able to pop in a code and get it online.  How that works IRL, I have no idea.




I'm not going to pay for individual virtual miniatures - randomized or otherwise.  That idea's just silly.  Maybe a SMALL single fee ONCE for 'blueprints' of an entire set - but only if I'm able to use as many copies of each miniature in that set as I want, for as long as I want.

If DDI is intended to resemble a MTG play model, I'm going to have to play in a different sandbox.



			
				Scribble said:
			
		

> What's scaring me though, is that it specifically says "As a subscriber, ownership of the E-version gives you access, when you are online, to the rules content while you’re filling out or updating your character sheet."
> 
> When I'm online? So it's apparently not a portable digital book, (and most likely not a pdf.)




It better be a VERRRY cheap cup of coffee of there's not a PDF involved.  Especially considering that I have to re-login to Gleemax/DDI almost perpetually in its current incarnation.


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## TheArcane

Wait a second... Did I get this correctly?



> We are designing the D&D Game Table to be as flexible as we can make it, to accommodate even non-D&D games. The D&D Game Table will not adjudicate game rules any more than your kitchen table adjudicates rules for you. DMs and players decide what they can and can’t do. DMs and players can communicate their rules adjudication through voice interaction provided by the VOIP (Voice-Over Internet Protocol), the text chat window, and the DM's settings.




Does this, in fact, mean that the Game Table will do nothing except display pretty minitaures on a map? How about tracking hit points? Tracking rounds and effects? Determining movement distance and areas of effect? Calculating bonuses? Making automatic rolls? Anything?
Seems to me like WOTC have a great chance to develop a full, official, online D&D suite, and they just make a VOIP application that shows maps?
Please, someone tell me I'm wrong about this!


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## Azgulor

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> Umm, this question answers itself.



Yes it does.

Unfortunately for WotC, I can think of two answers:

1) Because they can for said reasons.

2) Because Paizo is more customer-focused than WotC.


Now if WotC had been the first to offer PDF versions of their books when the book was purchased, answer #1 would probably be the dominant answer.

Now take the fact that companies like Paizo have already "set the standard" so to speak and combine it with WotC's less-than-stellar 4e PR to date, and I'm willing to bet more people will be thinking along the lines of answer #2.  If the reaction to WotC's new Dragon & Dungeon is any indication, the number of people agreeing with answer #2 may be sizeable.


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## zerotkatama

Scribble said:
			
		

> I dion't mind having to pay a "nominal fee" to access the digital version of my book... What's scaring me though, is that it specifically says "As a subscriber, ownership of the E-version gives you access, when you are online, to the rules content while you’re filling out or updating your character sheet."
> 
> When I'm online? So it's apparently not a portable digital book, (and most likely not a pdf.)
> 
> This is the first thing really that has actually disappointed me so far about the DDI.




I could be wrong, Charles, but the way I read that is you get access to that added functionality as a subscriber. However, you still get the PDF for the nominal fee.


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## Scribble

zerotkatama said:
			
		

> I could be wrong, Charles, but the way I read that is you get access to that added functionality as a subscriber. However, you still get the PDF for the nominal fee.




I'm not Charles, but I hope you're right.


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## Majoru Oakheart

Scribble said:
			
		

> I dion't mind having to pay a "nominal fee" to access the digital version of my book... What's scaring me though, is that it specifically says "As a subscriber, ownership of the E-version gives you access, when you are online, to the rules content while you’re filling out or updating your character sheet."
> 
> When I'm online? So it's apparently not a portable digital book, (and most likely not a pdf.)



No, it says you can access the content online while filling out or updating your character sheet.  They are talking about the character creator application.  From everything I've heard about this application, it is tied directly to online.  When you click on the feats tab, for instance, it goes to the DDI service, gets the currently available list of all feats from all books released and displays them for you.  If you click on a feat to see the details of it, it goes online checks to see if you've paid the nominal fee to activate that book in DDI and then displays a description of the feat if you have or shows you no detailed information if you haven't.

As for the book itself.  Who knows what format it will be in.  Wizards was asked if it would be a PDF file a while back and they said they hadn't decided yet.

From what I've heard paying the nominal fee does two things: it gives you a digital copy of a book (which you can get even if you are not a DDI subscriber) and if you ARE a DDI subscriber it also unlocks that books content in "all of the databases".  Which means being able to see the full descriptions of all the feats and abilities in that book in the character creator, likely being able to bring up a sheet of stats for monsters in the virtual table, and possibly other databases that they haven't really announced yet.


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## ForumFerret

Scribble said:
			
		

> I dion't mind having to pay a "nominal fee" to access the digital version of my book... What's scaring me though, is that it specifically says "As a subscriber, ownership of the E-version gives you access, when you are online, to the rules content while you’re filling out or updating your character sheet."
> 
> When I'm online? So it's apparently not a portable digital book, (and most likely not a pdf.)
> 
> This is the first thing really that has actually disappointed me so far about the DDI.




I think they're talking about what buying the ebook gives you in context of the character generator, Scribble. All the talk I've seen has said something along the lines of 'you get the full text of the book (in some to-be-announced-ebook-format) and _in addition_ it unlocks the data for your character sheet/character generator to use.

(Edit: beaten like a redheaded stepchild...but I think we're all saying the same thing.)


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## Scribble

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> From what I've heard paying the nominal fee does two things: it gives you a digital copy of a book (which you can get even if you are not a DDI subscriber) and if you ARE a DDI subscriber it also unlocks that books content in "all of the databases".  Which means being able to see the full descriptions of all the feats and abilities in that book in the character creator, likely being able to bring up a sheet of stats for monsters in the virtual table, and possibly other databases that they haven't really announced yet.




Again that's awesome if it's true. 

I was making a comment based on what was officially stated on the wizards website. It didn't say anything about a separate copy, only that when you are online you can access the digital info. So, if it's two different things... Awesome. But until that if officially announced, my comment still stands.


----------



## JVisgaitis

If I read the phrase "Windows rich" one more time I think my head would asplod. Seems like they are saying that the Game Table and the Character suite of options won't work with dual booting a Mac unless I am reading that wrong. Sucks for me/WotC. 7 subscriptions from my motley group that they aren't getting. On a positive note, I like everything I read. It sounds awesome. Just wish I could run it on my Mac...


----------



## epochrpg

> The character sheet portion of the D&D Character Creator is a data-driven Windows rich client application designed to facilitate character sheet creation using the D&D 4th Edition rules. D&D Insider subscribers will be able to create characters using content from any published book. To get access to the full details of the relevant rules and mechanical elements, though, you will need to own the E-version of the physical book where these rules or mechanical elements were published. When you purchase the printed book, a code will grant access to the E-version of the book for a nominal fee. As a subscriber, ownership of the E-version gives you access, when you are online, to the rules content while you’re filling out or updating your character sheet. Without the E-version, however, the character sheet will give you only the barest information (such as the names of feats and such) and refer you to the appropriate published books.




This burns me.  In my group, and I am sure 99.9% of gaming groups, not every person owns their own individual copy of each and every book.  On person had the complete series, I had spell compendium and bo9s, someone else had the races series, etc.  As a GROUP we had a pretty complete collection, but as individuals it was fragmentary.  It wasn't a problem making characters-- we'd just look at each other's books.  

But this online thing you each have to have your OWN copy to get access to the updates for your character.  Don't have the 4e version of Complete Warrior?  Oh well, your fighter cannot have spiffy feat/presige class-- but we'll tell you what book it is in.

I suppose the easiest solution to all this is for people to register their books all in the name of 1 person in the group (DM perhaps), but then you could only access the full character creation options while that person is around or if they give you their password...  

Which I wonder what would happen if 2 people login at the same time with the same user id and password-- is your account canceled & all online access cut off because you tried to cheat them of their $10 pound of flesh per month by having your game group share the cost? 

Honsestly, I'm not trying to say "My haT of d02 noze no Limitz", and I am looking forward to 4e, but some aspects of this online thing really bug me.  Personally, I plan not to pay the $10/month or the "nominal fee" per book-- and mooch off my friends that do.


----------



## epochrpg

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> If I read the phrase "Windows rich" one more time I think my head would asplod. Seems like they are saying that the Game Table and the Character suite of options won't work with dual booting a Mac unless I am reading that wrong. Sucks for me/WotC. 7 subscriptions from my motley group that they aren't getting. On a positive note, I like everything I read. It sounds awesome. Just wish I could run it on my Mac...




Oh, don't worry.  There will surely be some 3rd party software designed to fill this niche-- probably by the people who had been making online gaming tools for the past 5 years or so (screen monkey, etc).


----------



## Relique du Madde

Here is what I foresee happening:

Random person goes into the book store with a pen and paper and sees a DnD book they want.  He knows that with the DDI you can receive a pdf copy of the book with extras IF you fork over 10 dollars.  He then writes down the code (maybe necessitating that he rips open a packet or writing down serial numbers).  


The random person then goes on-line enters the code + spends 10 dollars to receive his pdf and extras.  Unfortunately, since its impossible to keep track of which books were sold at a store, WoTC would not know that the book's code was pirated.  If the code is TRULY unique, then once that copy is bought, it's legal owner then get's screwed out of the content since Wizards would say that the legal owner stole the code.


----------



## epochrpg

> The Dungeon Builder will help create tactical maps for your games. This Windows rich client application is improving on _the dungeon tile builder that is currently available for download on the D&D site_. Using dungeon tiles or basic drawing tools, Dungeon Masters and players can create tactical maps that can be used on the D&D Game Table.




Where is this Dungeon Tile builder that is currently available on the D&D site?  I went looking for it when I saw this and have not been able to find it...


----------



## epochrpg

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Here is what I forsee happening:
> 
> Random person goes into the book store with a pen and paper and sees a DnD book they want.  He knows that with the DDI you can recieve a pdf copy of the book IF you fork over 10 buxs AND you will recieve extras.  He then writes down the code (maybe necessitating that he ripes open a packet or writing down serial numbers), goes on-line enters the code + spends 10 bux to recieve his pdf and extras.




Maybe they'll have to make it so that more than 1 person can enter code for the same book.  That'd solve my issues with it regarding a gaming group where different people own different books to contribute to the whole collection...


----------



## D.Shaffer

epochrpg said:
			
		

> But this online thing you each have to have your OWN copy to get access to the updates for your character.  Don't have the 4e version of Complete Warrior?  Oh well, your fighter cannot have spiffy feat/presige class-- but we'll tell you what book it is in.



Check above for the complete summary, but as has been mentioned, they've already explained this.  Putting the code in just unlocks the descriptions of what they do.  Everything will still be there no matter what.  You can still pick the feat/class ability even if you dont have the book.


----------



## Scribble

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> The random person then goes on-line enters the code + spends 10 dollars to receive his pdf and extras.  Unfortunately, since its impossible to keep track of which books were sold at a store, WoTC would not know that the book's code was pirated.  If the code is TRULY unique, then once that copy is bought, it's legal owner then get's screwed out of the content since Wizards would say that the legal owner stole the code.




So don't buy a book when the code packet has already been ripped open?

If I go to a store and find that it's supposed to have a CD in it, and the CD is missing I won't buy it.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

Scribble said:
			
		

> Again that's awesome if it's true.
> 
> I was making a comment based on what was officially stated on the wizards website. It didn't say anything about a separate copy, only that when you are online you can access the digital info. So, if it's two different things... Awesome. But until that if officially announced, my comment still stands.



It was said already, just not in that article.  It was on a message board(can't remember which one).  Someone asked "can you get the digital copy if you aren't a subscriber" and the answer was yes but that being a subscriber also unlocked the rules items in all of the DDI databases.

When asked if you'd be able to access the digital copy while offline, the answer was more ambiguous.  I believe it was something like "we are looking at ways to maximize the use of your digital copy of the book while making sure it is protected from copying, however we have not decided how this will work."

There were similar answers to questions asked about whether the file would be a PDF and whether it would have DRM or watermarking.  It all amounted to "We don't want you to be able to copy the file or let anyone else use it.  The easiest way to do that is make it so that you need to be logged in using your username and password online to view the book, making it impossible to copy it.  However, a lot of people might complain about that, so maybe we'll turn it into a PDF file with DRM preventing people from copying it or giving it to other people.  However, a lot of people might complain about that.  So, we'll have a meeting sometime and discuss how much protection we can get away with putting on these things before June."


----------



## TheSeer

epochrpg said:
			
		

> This burns me.  In my group, and I am sure 99.9% of gaming groups, not every person owns their own individual copy of each and every book.  On person had the complete series, I had spell compendium and bo9s, someone else had the races series, etc.  As a GROUP we had a pretty complete collection, but as individuals it was fragmentary.  It wasn't a problem making characters-- we'd just look at each other's books.
> 
> But this online thing you each have to have your OWN copy to get access to the updates for your character.  Don't have the 4e version of Complete Warrior?  Oh well, your fighter cannot have spiffy feat/presige class-- but we'll tell you what book it is in.




Actually you WILL be able to have that spiffy feat/prestige class - *IF* you already know what it does according to the text:

_To get access to the full details of the relevant rules and mechanical elements, though, you will need to own the E-version of the physical book where these rules or mechanical elements were published. When you purchase the printed book, a code will grant access to the E-version of the book for a nominal fee. As a subscriber, ownership of the E-version gives you access, when you are online, to the rules content while you’re filling out or updating your character sheet. *Without the E-version, however, the character sheet will give you only the barest information (such as the names of feats and such)* and refer you to the appropriate published books._

So you will be able to borrow your buddy's book to look up the feat, put it on your character in the generator, but just not have access to the full text of the feat/prestige class is what I get from that, right?


----------



## Zaruthustran

*Apples to Oranges*



			
				Azgulor said:
			
		

> Yes it does.
> 
> Unfortunately for WotC, I can think of two answers:
> 
> 1) Because they can for said reasons.
> 
> 2) Because Paizo is more customer-focused than WotC.
> 
> 
> Now if WotC had been the first to offer PDF versions of their books when the book was purchased, answer #1 would probably be the dominant answer.
> 
> Now take the fact that companies like Paizo have already "set the standard" so to speak and combine it with WotC's less-than-stellar 4e PR to date, and I'm willing to bet more people will be thinking along the lines of answer #2.  If the reaction to WotC's new Dragon & Dungeon is any indication, the number of people agreeing with answer #2 may be sizeable.




Keep in mind that Paizo is merely offering a simple PDF version of some of the elements in a print magazine. Aside from the chore of uploading, there's literally no extra work--they just save the file (which they've already created for the printer) as a PDF.

WotC is not just offering a simple PDF version. *They're offering something entirely different*: "As a subscriber, ownership of the E-version gives you access, when you are online, to the rules content while you’re filling out or updating your character sheet." 

They're offering the content of the book entered into a database that integrates with their other tools. Creating such content is an additional expense--it's not just choosing "save as PDF" from the print layout program.

Frankly, WotC taking the time to create this huge suite of useful tools demonstrates that they are incredibly customer focused. There have been dozens of threads on this board asking WotC to create exactly what's described in that article. The DDI's tools (particularly the character and encounter builders) is a huge win for customers.


----------



## Scribble

I wionder if they'll have a CD included with the books... You put the cd in, log into the system and download the digital version plus unlock the features in DDI.

If someone else uses the CD to do the same, your copy disapears. (like if you sell a book now...)


----------



## Remathilis

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Here is what I foresee happening.




1.) To access the e-book version, you must already have DDI account. Which means you've already registered your name and credit-card billing address. Withouy a DDI account (and a credit card to pay the unlock fee) the code itself is useless. 

2.) I doubt the codes will be unique to each book. More likely, there will be one generic code for each book. The code will allow you to purchase the e-book version (for a fee). So even if you don't buy the book (you copy down the code), you could still buy an online-only version (available to you as long as you have a DDI account) without penalty (except for the lack of a paper/printable copy). 

3.) Even if you DON'T buy the hardcover, WotC still gets you for DDI+Access Cost. And you'll have to be online on there site to use it. Thats more money than they'd get if you downloaded a OCR version off Kazaa...

4.) It finally gives users a choice: An online-only version for a nominal fee (still readable, if not printable) a paper-only version (and you get the bare-bones version online) or get the premium package and get BOTH the online version for reference (and the more robust generators) and the paper-book. 

5.) Will it stop piracy? No. Will it slow it down by giving it a legitimate alternative (like iTunes did) yes.


----------



## Toryx

Well I love the concept of the digital table. Sadly, I won't ever be able to use it due to the computer limitations. Bummer.

As far as the ebook goes, I support them charging the extra fee. As has been mentioned, the service that Paizo provides and the one that Wizards will be offering are not truly comparable. You'll be getting a lot more for your bucks.

I'm inclined to agree with the poster who suggested the generic code as the way to go. Otherwise, there's no real way to protect the code aside from shrink wrapping the book, which would be a marketing disaster. A CD is not much of an option...lots of computers don't even bother with CD-Rom anymore, and it'd add a great deal to the cost that people who have no interest in electronic materials would be rightfully unwilling to pay. Having a generic code might open them to some theft issues (though I like the sealed envelope idea) but it'll be fairly well balanced by the profit they'll be making from those who don't steal the code. Besides, they could put a protective device into the code entry system that would require the book to be present when entering the code online.

In the end, the only issue I have are the hardware limitations for the online apps. I can understand the reasons for it, but that doesn't do me or most of my friends any good.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Keep in mind also that the nominal fee creates accountability that, in the end, protects you.
> 
> By charging a small fee, WotC makes it impossible to anonymously take ownership of the digital version of the book. Anyone who enters a code to get the digital version must identify themselves in a real, positive manner (through the use of a credit card or other verifiable payment scheme). That makes the fee one of (probably several) roadblocks to piracy.
> 
> [And before this blossoms into a discussion of intellectual property rights, remember this: What you're downloading is a unique digital object assigned to the book you bought. If somebody steals that, they've stolen your right to access the digital version of the book. YOU are the loser in a very real way, not some giant corporation is a very intangible way.]
> 
> [And before this blossoms into a discussion of how the pirates always find a way, remember this: This will not be perfect in preventing piracy, and neither will any of the other steps WotC takes. But, combined, they're intended to keep theft to a minimum. WotC has a lot of experience with digital objects (via Magic Online), so their overall system will probably be pretty effective.]
> 
> So the requirement to purchase increases the likelihood that when I buy a book, the code to obtain the digital version is likely to still be valid when I take the book home and type it into DDI. That alone seems to be worth an extra buck or two.




Charles has this exactly right.

The nominal fee is likely $1-2.


----------



## Festivus

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Where is this Dungeon Tile builder that is currently available on the D&D site?  I went looking for it when I saw this and have not been able to find it...




I think this is what they are referring to:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20061121t


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Remathilis said:
			
		

> 1.) To access the e-book version, you must already have DDI account. Which means you've already registered your name and credit-card billing address. Withouy a DDI account (and a credit card to pay the unlock fee) the code itself is useless.
> 
> 2.) I doubt the codes will be unique to each book. More likely, there will be one generic code for each book. The code will allow you to purchase the e-book version (for a fee). So even if you don't buy the book (you copy down the code), you could still buy an online-only version (available to you as long as you have a DDI account) without penalty (except for the lack of a paper/printable copy).
> 
> 3.) Even if you DON'T buy the hardcover, WotC still gets you for DDI+Access Cost. And you'll have to be online on there site to use it. Thats more money than they'd get if you downloaded a OCR version off Kazaa...
> 
> 4.) It finally gives users a choice: An online-only version for a nominal fee (still readable, if not printable) a paper-only version (and you get the bare-bones version online) or get the premium package and get BOTH the online version for reference (and the more robust generators) and the paper-book.
> 
> 5.) Will it stop piracy? No. Will it slow it down by giving it a legitimate alternative (like iTunes did) yes.




The codes will be unique to each book and you will not need to be a D&D Insider subscriber to activate the E-Book version.


----------



## Scribble

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Charles has this exactly right.
> 
> The nominal fee is likely $1-2.




Now that is a good nominal. 

Can you give me an official update on how the book will work if you aren't online?


----------



## Charwoman Gene

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> If I read the phrase "Windows rich" one more time




It's Windows "rich client"


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Scribble said:
			
		

> Now that is a good nominal.
> 
> Can you give me an official update on how the book will work if you aren't online?




No. It will likely be a PDF type document that lives on your HD so you can use offline.

When you activate (while online) and you also have a D&DI account the system will update your database. If you don't have a D&Di account you'll need the free Gleemax account so we know who you are and you just get the PDF on your local machine.


----------



## The Little Raven

Kravell said:
			
		

> Of course Wizards can charge any price they want for anything they sell. However, Paizo, a much smaller company, offers free PDFs to me when I buy the paper copy of Pathfinder by subscription.




Paizo isn't offering you integration with a suite of tools. That PDF doesn't get you extra stuff in a character generator or integrated maps to play with your friends online. This is really no different than the data-sets people buy from Code Monkey for E-Tools and stuff.



> Why does Paizo give me a better deal than Wizards when Wizards is bigger, sells more, and controls a large portion of the market?




Because Paizo has to work harder to get people's money.


----------



## carmachu

Scholar & Brutalman said:
			
		

> Wizards have mentioned the fee before. They said  "Nominal" means "about the price of a cup of coffee."
> 
> I have no problem with that part of DDI, or even the Dragon and Dungeon online as long as the content improves.





That all depends. It the nomial fee is the subscription to DI and all that intails, thats fine.

If its a fee ON TOP OF the monthly fee to subscribe to the DI....I'm starting to feel nickle and dimed to death.


----------



## Scribble

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> No. It will likely be a PDF type document that lives on your HD so you can use offline.
> 
> When you activate (while online) and you also have a D&DI account the system will update your database. If you don't have a D&Di account you'll need the free Gleemax account so we know who you are and you just get the PDF on your local machine.




Thank you. This alleviates my fears... For the most part.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Keep in mind also that the nominal fee creates accountability that, in the end, protects you.
> 
> By charging a small fee, WotC makes it impossible to anonymously take ownership of the digital version of the book. Anyone who enters a code to get the digital version must identify themselves in a real, positive manner (through the use of a credit card or other verifiable payment scheme). That makes the fee one of (probably several) roadblocks to piracy.
> 
> [And before this blossoms into a discussion of intellectual property rights, remember this: What you're downloading is a unique digital object assigned to the book you bought. If somebody steals that, they've stolen your right to access the digital version of the book. YOU are the loser in a very real way, not some giant corporation is a very intangible way.]
> 
> [And before this blossoms into a discussion of how the pirates always find a way, remember this: This will not be perfect in preventing piracy, and neither will any of the other steps WotC takes. But, combined, they're intended to keep theft to a minimum. WotC has a lot of experience with digital objects (via Magic Online), so their overall system will probably be pretty effective.]
> 
> So the requirement to purchase increases the likelihood that when I buy a book, the code to obtain the digital version is likely to still be valid when I take the book home and type it into DDI. That alone seems to be worth an extra buck or two.



All true.  However, I think it's also worth pointing out that pirates already have no problems constructing electronic versions of WotC books already, and so will probably not bother to try to hijack anyone's books.  Rather, if they really, really want WotC's electronic version rather than making their own scans, they will probably buy the book, unlock the electronic version, and then find a way to remove any DRM, watermark, or other identifier from that document, then distribute it.

The fee will prevent casual piracy, but the people scanning the books now will keep scanning the books.  I agree that paying a fee will prevent some kid from copying down the book's code in the store and registering it before the actual purchaser has the opportunity to do so.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> No. It will likely be a PDF type document that lives on your HD so you can use offline.
> 
> When you activate (while online) and you also have a D&DI account the system will update your database. If you don't have a D&Di account you'll need the free Gleemax account so we know who you are and you just get the PDF on your local machine.



What if you buy the book, register it using the free Gleemax account, and then later get a D&Di account?  Will the registration be easy to migrate?


----------



## Nifft

"Technical look"? Geez, the writer was obviously not a technical person -- and it was just a summary of what we already knew. :\

Can't they get a technical person from whatever company they're buying the darn thing from to do a write-up?

Feh, -- N


----------



## Scribble

I'm wondering how this will effect the low budget PDF only market...


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Remathilis said:
			
		

> 5.) Will it stop piracy? No. Will it slow it down by giving it a legitimate alternative (like iTunes did) yes.



I think that it's interesting that this endeavor is essentially demonstrating that the value of a pirated e-book is about $1 or $2.  If a user has the choice between downloading a free copy of a book he owns so that he can put it on his laptop, or registering the book with WotC for $2 in order to get an official electronic version, I think most users will choose the latter.  I will pay $2 for a hassle-free electronic document, but probably not $5 or $10.


----------



## Oldtimer

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> If I read the phrase "Windows rich" one more time I think my head would asplod.



There phrase is "Windows rich client". Just means that it runs as a native app on Windows and not in a browser or a Flash player or similar.



> Seems like they are saying that the Game Table and the Character suite of options won't work with dual booting a Mac unless I am reading that wrong. Sucks for me/WotC. 7 subscriptions from my motley group that they aren't getting. On a positive note, I like everything I read. It sounds awesome. Just wish I could run it on my Mac...



Why won't it work with dual booting a Mac? If you can boot into WinXP through BootCamp, you should be able to run anything, right? Except for Game Table and Character Visualizer, everything should even run on MacOS through Parallells.

Am I missing something here?


----------



## Pyrex

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> The only problem I see is that it pretty much requires them to shrink wrap their books. Otherwise, you could just go to Barnes and Noble, copy the code out of a book and then use the code online. Then that customer who did buy the book in good faith is screwed.




There are plenty of solutions that don't involve shrink-wrapping the book.

For example, say that each copy of the PHB that ships to retailers comes with a scratch-ticket with the individual code that is intended to be kept behind the counter and handed to the purchaser.

Or just put said scratch ticket in a sealed envelope on the last page of the book; kind of like how the 3.0 PHB came with a demo CD for the then-vision of the online toolset...


----------



## The Little Raven

Pyrex said:
			
		

> For example, say that each copy of the PHB that ships to retailers comes with a scratch-ticket with the individual code that is intended to be kept behind the counter and handed to the purchaser.




Please, no. My local gaming store is horrible about that kind of thing. I had to argue with the guy for 30 minutes when 3e came out about the copies of the conversion document they got sent.



> Or just put said scratch ticket in a sealed envelope on the last page of the book; kind of like how the 3.0 PHB came with a demo CD for the then-vision of the online toolset...




Much preferable.


----------



## Nifft

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> I think that it's interesting that this endeavor is essentially demonstrating that the value of a pirated e-book is about $1 or $2.  If a user has the choice between downloading a free copy of a book he owns so that he can put it on his laptop, or registering the book with WotC for $2 in order to get an official electronic version, I think most users will choose the latter.  I will pay $2 for a hassle-free electronic document, but probably not $5 or $10.



 Agree, though I'd prefer the $1 charge. I already feel entitled to "space-shift" the books I own to my laptop for easy transit, so the charge should be purely for the convenience of not needing to find the damn thing online.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## epochrpg

TheSeer said:
			
		

> Actually you WILL be able to have that spiffy feat/prestige class - *IF* you already know what it does according to the text:
> 
> _To get access to the full details of the relevant rules and mechanical elements, though, you will need to own the E-version of the physical book where these rules or mechanical elements were published. When you purchase the printed book, a code will grant access to the E-version of the book for a nominal fee. As a subscriber, ownership of the E-version gives you access, when you are online, to the rules content while you’re filling out or updating your character sheet. *Without the E-version, however, the character sheet will give you only the barest information (such as the names of feats and such)* and refer you to the appropriate published books._
> 
> So you will be able to borrow your buddy's book to look up the feat, put it on your character in the generator, but just not have access to the full text of the feat/prestige class is what I get from that, right?




And if the feat has an effect on mechanics that would be reflected on your character sheet, it will also not get figured in?  or will it and it just doesn't explain why it changed...


----------



## Mercule

Riley said:
			
		

> It better be a VERRRY cheap cup of coffee of there's not a PDF involved.  Especially considering that I have to re-login to Gleemax/DDI almost perpetually in its current incarnation.




I don't remember the full context (it was on ENWorld), but I made a statement along the lines of "$1-2 and I'm all there, but $5+ I'm definitely out" and someone from WotC (Scott, maybe?) was kind enough to tell me that I wouldn't definitely be out.  I'm actually left with the impression that I was told I would be happy, but can't remember the exact response.  Nor can I search.

My guess is that $2.50 is about the upper end that they're considering.  Which is, pleasantly enough, the upper end of what I'd consider.

Edit: Crap.  Should have read the second page.  Scott popped in and gave the official answer.


----------



## epochrpg

Scribble said:
			
		

> I wionder if they'll have a CD included with the books... You put the cd in, log into the system and download the digital version plus unlock the features in DDI.
> 
> If someone else uses the CD to do the same, your copy disapears. (like if you sell a book now...)




I like that.  It is much harder to steal, and easier to notice if someone else has.  You go into a bookstore to buy a D&D book-- you have no way of knowing if someone has copied the serial number already and is using the digital version themselves.  But if they do this via CD, then you can easily see-- the cd is missing from this book!  Physical ownership of the CD could be enough to prove ownership of the book.  I hope they go this route.


----------



## Mercule

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> If I read the phrase "Windows rich" one more time I think my head would asplod.




Erm...  You're breaking down the phrase the wrong way.  It's not Windows that's rich, it's the client.  I work on a development team that does both web and desktop applications.  The term "rich client" is used to differentiate a desktop interface from a web interface.  Calling it a "rich client" also implies that there is communication between the client application and a server somewhere -- in this case the DDI database.  

If it was built for Macintosh, it would be correct to call it a "Mac rich client" application.  If it was cross-platform (or the platform was understood by the whole audience), simply saying "rich client" would be appropriate.

Sorry.  What you're reading isn't random hype.  It's an industry term that relates definite meaning and was being used correctly.


----------



## Scribble

epochrpg said:
			
		

> I like that.  It is much harder to steal, and easier to notice if someone else has.  You go into a bookstore to buy a D&D book-- you have no way of knowing if someone has copied the serial number already and is using the digital version themselves.  But if they do this via CD, then you can easily see-- the cd is missing from this book!  Physical ownership of the CD could be enough to prove ownership of the book.  I hope they go this route.




If you also include a serial number for each book, then you can also make it easier for stores to report CDs as missing. Then if wizards checks its DB and sees a book registered that is reported as missing, they can take action. (Or just turn off that book.)


----------



## Reaper Steve

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> The codes will be unique to each book and you will not need to be a D&D Insider subscriber to activate the E-Book version.




So my PHB will have a different code than yours? If so, good.
And then to activate the code someone pays a couple bucks via credit card, which then identifies the register. (The theory being if someone copies the code and activates it, they can be tracked.) Ok, also cool with that.

But is there a way to protect the code from being stolen in the first place? I'd hate to buy a book and then find out the code has been used when I try to register. What will the solution be for that? Will I have to email WotC and wait for them to investigate the issue? But if the code is protected via a sticker or a strach off or something, and a pirate removes that in the store, that book won't sell. 'Oh look, a whole rack of 4E, with all the codes scratched off.'

I'm not being flip... I'm intrigued as to how they will make this work without overly inconvienencing the honest people. I hope it does work, but I have to wonder: at what cost?


----------



## Lackhand

If they discover a rack of books with the codes scratched off, the store can return them for refunds, and wizards can "eat the cost".

Then, they can see who used the codes to register the books: they have the physical book in their possession, so they have proof that something fishy went on.

Then, they can either sell the erstwhile thief the book (possibly with a penalty, to reflect all that tracking-down time?) or take 'em to court.

Either way, You, the Innocent Consumer, don't really have to worry too much  If you *do* have the physical book in your possession but the code doesn't work, again, they can take whatever relevant steps are necessary.

And if someone just scratches off the code, but doesn't use it, this is petty vandalism. I have no idea what bookstores do for that now, but they'd continue to do it here.

All in all, a pretty slick solution. Embed the identifying information (including & especially the *credit card numbers*) in plain view on every page of the .pdf, and you bind the .pdf pretty securely to the purchaser.

A pirate could still bust open the pdf and reencode it without the watermark, but at least Wizards got $1 out of them, and they could do this before with a scanner and free time. This way, if they slip up, there's a chance of still nabbing 'em.


----------



## Lackhand

Actually, putting the credit card number in the order would be unnecessarily punitive. Gleemax name + password, plus real world name, should be sufficient.

The worry is that the parents of kids would be unwilling to purchase the books for them, which is a fair concern.


----------



## Zaruthustran

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> So my PHB will have a different code than yours? I'd hate to buy a book and then find out the code has been used when I try to register.




I think what he meant by "the code will be unique to each book" is that each book (like, say, "Player's Handbook") will have its own code. Not that each _copy_ of a book will have a unique code.

In publishing, the term "book" = title/product. Not an actual, finished individual item.

Scott, please correct me if I'm misinterpreting.


----------



## Reaper Steve

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> I think what he meant by "the code will be unique to each book" is that each book (like, say, "Player's Handbook") will have its own code. Not that each _copy_ of a book will have a unique code.
> 
> Scott, please correct me if I'm misinterpreting.




I'm asking because Scott's answer could be interpreted two ways based on the original question. 
Remathilis stated: "I doubt the codes will be unique to each book. More likely, there will be one generic code for each book."
Scott answered the code will be unique to each book. Does that mean:
1) each copy of the PHB will have its very one code, no two are alike, or
2) The PHB code is different from the DMG code.

I'm hoping (1) and I am intrigued as to how they will do it. (2) is certainly much easier, but would be an exercise in futility as it would do nothing to prevent access.


----------



## occam

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> Well, except the cost is high.  On the order of $300 between a legal virtualizable copy of windows and the cost for parallels.




And the cost is much higher than mere money, my friend.   

In most cases, one must make a conscious choice to use a Mac instead of a Windows PC. There are reasons people make that choice, and almost none of them are "so I can run programs in Windows". Offering that as an option to "support" Mac users is... well, to be charitable, unfortunate.


----------



## occam

Kravell said:
			
		

> Of course Wizards can charge any price they want for anything they sell. However, Paizo, a much smaller company, offers free PDFs to me when I buy the paper copy of Pathfinder by subscription.
> 
> If I'm already paying for online content why not get my PDFs free from Wizards as well if I buy the paper copy of a book? As a consumer I think that is a very good question. Why does Paizo give me a better deal than Wizards when Wizards is bigger, sells more, and controls a large portion of the market?




The key word in your second sentence is "subscription". Paizo won't give you a free PDF if you buy one of their products in a store, or even if you buy an individual product from their Website. You need a subscription, which means you have an account with them, they know who you are, and there's an ongoing financial relationship. It's worth it to Paizo to encourage that, and makes it easier to prevent fraud.

Also, as has been pointed out by others, WotC isn't just providing a PDF of the book (if that is indeed what it ends up being), but integration with the DDI tools.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> I think what he meant by "the code will be unique to each book" is that each book (like, say, "Player's Handbook") will have its own code. Not that each _copy_ of a book will have a unique code.
> 
> In publishing, the term "book" = title/product. Not an actual, finished individual item.
> 
> Scott, please correct me if I'm misinterpreting.




Each copy will have a unique code. No two are alike


----------



## Zaruthustran

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> Scott answered the code will be unique to each book. Does that mean:
> 1) each copy of the PHB will have its very one code, no two are alike, or
> 2) The PHB code is different from the DMG code.
> 
> I'm hoping (1) and I am intrigued as to how they will do it. (2) is certainly much easier, but would be an exercise in futility as it would do nothing to prevent access.




Yeah, it could be either.

(2) might not be problem, since the guy who scribbles down the code still have to pay for the content in DDI. It'd be interesting to see if the revenue from the DDI bit exceeds the revenue from the book. Like, if the book sells for $30, of which WotC's cut is (for example) $10, then that's pretty close to the supposed "coffee" price of unlocking book content in DDI. 

It's especially exciting since providing the unlocked content costs WotC nothing, while providing the book costs $. Best part is, sell 1,000 books and you have to pay for 1,000 books to be printed. Sell 1,000 DDI content unlocks, and you only have to pay the integration cost of that content once. The more you sell, the more profitable DDI-only content becomes. 

Point being: I don't think WotC will be terribly upset if people copy down the codes. They make money either way. And if the person goes in the store to get the code, there's at least a chance they'll wind up buying the whole book.

If it's (1), man, what a headache. The extra cost of printing a code unique to each _copy_ of the book is very high. The cost of customer service sorting out the rightful owner of a dupe code is very high. The aggravation to customers as their code issue is sorted out is very high. Ugh. Not an attractive proposition.

_EDIT: My bad. So, Scott: what's your solution to the issues I brought up in the above paragraph?_


----------



## Scribble

My guess is if anything they'll look for a pattern...

Hello Johny Game Thief! 

We've notices you've consistently been registering books that are registered a second time by various other users...


----------



## Reaper Steve

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Each copy will have a unique code. No two are alike




Thanks for clearing that up!

Part Deux: Will the code be tamper proof or otherwise unaccessible before the book is purchased? (Or will it be immediately apparent if someone steals the code from an unsold book?)


----------



## epochrpg

Scribble said:
			
		

> I'm wondering how this will effect the low budget PDF only market...




I doubt it will.  You can already buy WotC books online pdfs from Rpgnow and drivethrurpg.com.  They aren't cheap.  The $1-2 fee for electronic D&D material is only if you bought the $30-40 hardcopy.  I doubt these will have any impact on the pdf market.  Indy companies will continue to produce pdf and pod products at likely the same prices as they are now.  

Now as far as piracy is concerned I think they will do a lot to slow it down, which as a publisher I can appreciate.


----------



## hong

epochrpg said:
			
		

> And if the feat has an effect on mechanics that would be reflected on your character sheet, it will also not get figured in?  or will it and it just doesn't explain why it changed...



 At some point, it seems reasonable to expect that if you want to know what the feat does, you should read the book.


----------



## epochrpg

hong said:
			
		

> At some point, it seems reasonable to expect that if you want to know what the feat does, you should read the book.




Oh I know that.  What I am saying is that: 

1. They are saying how great the virtual character sheet thing is.
2. You need the book to have explaination of the feats. 

Now if #2 can be interpreted to mean that mechanical changes in your character are not reflected by the sheet, #1 is rendered false-- as you still need "plug in" values, etc by hand.


----------



## JVisgaitis

Mercule said:
			
		

> Sorry.  What you're reading isn't random hype.  It's an industry term that relates definite meaning and was being used correctly.




Um, where did I say anything about the write up being random hype? All I said was I got sick of reading Windows rich... Considering I've worked in IT for 6 years now at one of the world's largest domain providers, I know what a Windows rich client is. I just got sick of reading it. It has nothing to do with me not knowing what the term is and everything to do with the fact that they designed this straight up for Windows-based machines. Yuck!


----------



## hong

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Oh I know that.  What I am saying is that:
> 
> 1. They are saying how great the virtual character sheet thing is.
> 2. You need the book to have explaination of the feats.
> 
> Now if #2 can be interpreted to mean that mechanical changes in your character are not reflected by the sheet, #1 is rendered false-- as you still need "plug in" values, etc by hand.



 And do you choose to interpret it that way?


----------



## epochrpg

hong said:
			
		

> And do you choose to interpret it that way?




No, I'm saying if WotC interprets it that way, it could make the "super spiffy neato keen" character sheet less useful.  BtW, like your site, Hong-- used several of your pregenned iron-heroes meets bo9s encounters against my players.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Dual boot my ass. Not all mac users got that option, *only* those who bought in the past 2 and a half years or so. Does Didier need some cluing on that? He ought to go edit his article to clear that up that only the minority of Mac users with Intel processors can opt for the Boot Camp/virtualization program option.

So despite having a dual-processor 64 bit 1.8 Ghz PowerPC G5 tower intended to last for another 3-4 years comfortably, I get to be denied DDI content until my upgrade cycle comes around again.

Really, this feels more and more like my hobby is telling me I'm not invited to come along to the next big cool thing. . . . until I drop a few thousand dollars my budget doesn't have.

The bright side is that Gleemax might have its flaws fixed by then and we might be on to D&D 4.5.

The other hope is that by the end of 2008 WotC's paid-thinkers decide the handhelds aren't worth ignoring and they get on the ball and put out an iPhone/iPod Touch client app using the forthcoming iPhone SDK. And because the iPhone runs OS X it is only a tweak away from full Mac OS X. While I'm not going to get a new computer until after 2009 (at best) I *will* have an iPhone by mid 2008.


----------



## Zogmo

*Nominal Fee?*

I am sorry if this has been stated before but I haven't read anywhere that says this is only a one time fee.  Are we sure this isn't a nominal monthly fee?

If it's a one time fee how long will access to the books last?

If it's monthly then the monthly bill will be huge after buying a bunch of books and activating the electronic versions thus limiting my electronic purchases and limiting my access to the material with the character builder and whatever else uses them.


----------



## D.Shaffer

*Electronic copy*

My worry is this...

If I register my electronic copy and download it into my computer, and then accidentally delete it/my hard drive fries, am I going to have to reregister to get it again?  Not all companies allow repeat downloads.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

Zogmo said:
			
		

> I am sorry if this has been stated before but I haven't read anywhere that says this is only a one time fee.  Are we sure this isn't a nominal monthly fee?



Yes, we're sure.  Its been said elsewhere.  You pay once to activate each book to get the digital copy of the book and its permanent.

The only thing in 4th Ed that has a monthly fee is DDI.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Dual boot my ass. Not all mac users got that option, *only* those who bought in the past 2 and a half years or so. Does Didier need some cluing on that? He ought to go edit his article to clear that up that only the minority of Mac users with Intel processors can opt for the Boot Camp/virtualization program option.



I don't think he needs it, because it should be obvious to any Mac owner whether he can dual boot or not. I hope it's also obvious (to both Mac Users and WotC) that dual-booting doesn't come free.
You need BootCamp, whose Beta Phase is now over and is supposed to cost money if you're still using Mac OS Tiger , and you still need Windows License (which isn't free except in a few corner cases, like the MSDN Academic Alliance) to have anything to dual boot. 



> So despite having a dual-processor 64 bit 1.8 Ghz PowerPC G5 tower intended to last for another 3-4 years comfortably, I get to be denied DDI content until my upgrade cycle comes around again.
> 
> Really, this feels more and more like my hobby is telling me I'm not invited to come along to the next big cool thing. . . . until I drop a few thousand dollars my budget doesn't have.



If you see using the Virtual Game Table and the Character Portrait Builder (or what it is called) as a main component of your hobby, it appears so.
Except your price seems a bit too high, I think you can a get a decent Windows PC for the minimum requirements notably below thousand dollar.

If you have a group at home, do you really absolutely need all the digital stuff? I played around with a few character generators, but in the end, I always return to "hand-crafted" Open Office Text Documents for writing down my characters. 
(Incidentally, currently I use my MacBook for this stuff)



> The bright side is that Gleemax might have its flaws fixed by then and we might be on to D&D 4.5.



You can use Gleemax (for free!) without Windows. Other parts of the DDI are indeed unavailable to you. (That doesn't mean you shouldn't wait till Gleemax flaws are fixed, though .)



> The other hope is that by the end of 2008 WotC's paid-thinkers decide the handhelds aren't worth ignoring and they get on the ball and put out an iPhone/iPod Touch client app using the forthcoming iPhone SDK. And because the iPhone runs OS X it is only a tweak away from full Mac OS X. While I'm not going to get a new computer until after 2009 (at best) I *will* have an iPhone by mid 2008.



I do not think that the 3D intensive stuff is suited for the iPhone, the iPod Touch or any other hand-held. Not for the next few years, at least. And that's still the main reason why they are relying on DirectX and thus Windows - the 3D Effects.
I still don't know how hard it would be to convert the non-3D stuff to other platforms. (And even less do I know whether they will do it all, but I really hope so.)


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty

But it's a digital online copy, correct? Can you download it?


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> But it's a digital online copy, correct? Can you download it?



It sounds like yes, but as I mentioned before, all questions to WOTC about this have received vague rather than definite answers.  They basically say "We'd love to give you a document that you can use in the most flexible way possible while still maintaining security."  It sounds like if they can find a way to have a reasonable amount of confidence that their document won't be copied or given to anyone else, then they will allow people to use it offline.  If their tech people say that there is a significant risk involved then they will force people to be online to check for security.  And they have a number of more months to investigate possibilities before they need to decide.


----------



## DaveMage

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> It sounds like yes, but as I mentioned before, all questions to WOTC about this have received vague rather than definite answers.




In post #65 of this thread, Scott Rouse is pretty specific.


----------



## Hussar

epochrpg said:
			
		

> And if the feat has an effect on mechanics that would be reflected on your character sheet, it will also not get figured in?  or will it and it just doesn't explain why it changed...




My guess would be that without paying the nominal fee, you'd have to manually enter the mechanics.  Not a big deal.  Makes sense really.  Pay your 1 or 2 dollars, save the work on your VTT.  Choose not to pay and amend your die rollers yourself.  

Remember, they have emphatically stated that the VTT will NOT adjudicate.  It is simply a table to play at.  You will have to make sure the rules are being followed, same as a regular table.  If players are buying the extras, then the calculations will likely be done automatically.  Otherwise, you have to audit the macros.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.  Damn good idea too.  Let's face it, most people buy the books for their characters.  I don't make a binder without having the Tome of Magic.  Sure, I could borrow books, but, remember, VTT gamers don't have this option.  There's the whole geography issue preventing it.

IMO, it's going to be the RPGA that really, really drives the VTT in the beginning.  I can foresee getting even 1% of RPGA members running regular games on the VTT will mean thousands of players.  RPGA members are used to buying their own books since RPGA play means you generally HAVE to have your own books.  

In all honestly ladies and gentlemen, if you have a regular table top game right now, the VTT isn't aimed at you in the slightest.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg

What I am hoping for is that they set up a two-tier subscription to D&DI.  One level is just the online extra content - Dungeon, Dragon etc.  The second level gives you access to the applications and online tools.  As a Mac user who cannot currently Dual Boot (and not sure if I would buy the program and Windows even if I had an Intel chip Mac), I probably won't pay for a subscription if I have to pay the same price but not have access to the tools.  I probably _will_ pay a few dollars for the e-copy of the books.

To turn the argument on people in other threads who have asked why Windows users should subsidize the cost of Mac development, why should I subsidize the cost of the online tools if I can't use them?


----------



## Zogmo

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> What I am hoping for is that they set up a two-tier subscription to D&DI.  One level is just the online extra content - Dungeon, Dragon etc.  The second level gives you access to the applications and online tools.  As a Mac user who cannot currently Dual Boot (and not sure if I would buy the program and Windows even if I had an Intel chip Mac), I probably won't pay for a subscription if I have to pay the same price but not have access to the tools.  I probably _will_ pay a few dollars for the e-copy of the books.





Now this makes a lot of sense.  And it should be a much easier way to keep at least some of the Mac users in the loop until a more more feasible solution is presented.


----------



## Daniel D. Fox

Apparently, no one at WotC has ever purchased a used book from a hobby shop. With a unique code, that content won't be available to the new owner of said book.

Why not just have the PDFs downloadable for free if you're a DnD Insider?!


----------



## Zogmo

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> The codes will be unique to each book and you will not need to be a D&D Insider subscriber to activate the E-Book version.





I wonder if there is a way to tie in the hard copy's unique code for the ebook with a serial number imprinted in the hard copy.  So when you register for the ebook you need to enter the unique serial number of the book too and if they don't match up then the unique ebook code doesn't work.


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty

I don't mind paying a couple additional bucks (a couple!) for digital access.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

> And if the feat has an effect on mechanics that would be reflected on your character sheet, it will also not get figured in? or will it and it just doesn't explain why it changed...



I find the latter likely. For a lot of abilities, this would probably still mean you need the exact descriptions (and adjucate their effects manually), since they don't directly affect your numbers. 
Spells rarely give a fixed bonus that is constant about time. Many feats give a numerical bonus, but often they add more - Improved Disarm adds +4 to your Disarm roll, but you don't provoke AoOs when disarming now, either.


----------



## skinnydwarf

epochrpg said:
			
		

> This burns me.  In my group, and I am sure 99.9% of gaming groups, not every person owns their own individual copy of each and every book.  On person had the complete series, I had spell compendium and bo9s, someone else had the races series, etc.  As a GROUP we had a pretty complete collection, but as individuals it was fragmentary.  It wasn't a problem making characters-- we'd just look at each other's books.
> 
> But this online thing you each have to have your OWN copy to get access to the updates for your character.  Don't have the 4e version of Complete Warrior?  Oh well, your fighter cannot have spiffy feat/presige class-- but we'll tell you what book it is in.




You are misunderstanding (or I am, but I think I'm right) how the ebook/character generator interacts.  The way I understand how it will work is this:

You buy a hardcopy of the book, and you can "activate" an ecopy for a nominal fee.

SEPARATE from that is the character generator.  The character generator will be the same for everyone, and everyone can create a character with the same feats, prestige classes, etc.

To take your Complete Warrior example, once that comes out for 4E, the character generator will be updated, and everyone can make characters using the rules from Complete Warrior.  If there is a feat called "Super Power Attack" in that book, everyone who subscribes can make characters who have that feat.  The only difference for people who bought and activated the book is that while in the character generator they can read the rules for "Super Power Attack."  People who did not activate the book (either becasue they didn't want to pay the nominal fee, or because they didn't buy it) only see "Super Power Attack," and can't read the rules for it within the program.

Source: Unofficial D&D 4th Edition Info Page



			
				Unofficial D&D 4th Edition Info Page
 said:
			
		

> Q: Will my players need to own the book and activate it to use those options in the character generator?
> 
> Answer: We already have mentioned that* owning the E-version of a published book will allow to see the details of the book content within the D&DI applications, if you are a D&DI subscriber.*
> Now you will *still be able to build a character using features from a published book even if you do not own the E-Version of that published book*. You will not be able to see the detailed descriptions of the resources you have used from that published book, though.


----------



## ZappoHisbane

Moniker said:
			
		

> Apparently, no one at WotC has ever purchased a used book from a hobby shop. With a unique code, that content won't be available to the new owner of said book.
> 
> Why not just have the PDFs downloadable for free if you're a DnD Insider?!




So you're expecting to pay a fixed monthly fee, and get free access to all published materials?  Methinks you're expecting a little much there.  The unique code lets WotC confirm (in theory) that you are in fact the legit owner of the book.  If you buy a used book, caveat emptor.


----------



## lukelightning

Scholar & Brutalman said:
			
		

> Wizards have mentioned the fee before. They said  "Nominal" means "about the price of a cup of coffee."




By Starbucks pricing that means like $5.99, right?


----------



## Sledge

So am I right in reading that the nominal fee will preclude me from buying just a digital copy for a nominal fee?
Also I'm wondering if being able to see details in the character sheet tool means that your printout will include those details?


----------



## carmachu

Mercule said:
			
		

> I don't remember the full context (it was on ENWorld), but I made a statement along the lines of "$1-2 and I'm all there, but $5+ I'm definitely out" and someone from WotC (Scott, maybe?) was kind enough to tell me that I wouldn't definitely be out.  I'm actually left with the impression that I was told I would be happy, but can't remember the exact response.  Nor can I search.
> 
> My guess is that $2.50 is about the upper end that they're considering.  Which is, pleasantly enough, the upper end of what I'd consider.
> 
> Edit: Crap.  Should have read the second page.  Scott popped in and gave the official answer.





I would rather Wotc stick another dollar on the book price and another dollar on teh subscription price(or perhaps two dollars on the subscription price and none on the book) than keep paying bits and pieces for every little thing.


----------



## Lackhand

carmachu said:
			
		

> I would rather Wotc stick another dollar on the book price and another dollar on teh subscription price(or perhaps two dollars on the subscription price and none on the book) than keep paying bits and pieces for every little thing.




Not singling you out, you're just the latest to post this 

While it *is* almost literally nickel-and-diming (actually, it's ten to twenty times worse!), it's also one of the only sensible ways to do this.

The only sensible/kind place to charge for the electronic version of a book is in the electronic service; it's probably a fairly common pattern for someone to buy a book but be unable to access a pdf: a child prohibited from making unsupervised online purchases (like anything associated with the DI, say), or a book given as a gift, or so on.

Once they do that, they can either charge more for the service monthly, or once per book.
If they charge monthly, then you have to pay, whether you've bought this month's book or not. That's a terrible model, really, because I know that I only buy a few D&D books/year, and none in the last two years (though I've had a few given to me by *very* considerate friends!)

If they charge per book, then you only pay for what you use. Win!

It looks like they're not tying the book downloads to gleemax accounts, which actually annoys me a little bit from a security standpoint: computers crash, credit cards change, and people change their names, but a login on the wizards' own site, with whatever security they have in place, is ostensibly forever. (alpha test notwithstanding )
It'd allow tracking legitimate loss of .pdfs, people stealing books, and so on, *really* easily.

My consulting fee is really cheap, Scott. Consider contacting me. 
I'm definitely less desperate than Klaus. 
<_<
>_>


----------



## Irda Ranger

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Each copy will have a unique code. No two are alike



Scott:

1.  What happens to the "true owner" of a book if some jerk copied the number out of a book at the store and buys the PDF version first?

2.  What happens in the secondary market?

Thanks.


PS - Sorry if someone already asked this, I just scanned through for Scott's posts, since I don't have time to read the whole thread now.


----------



## Scribble

epochrpg said:
			
		

> I doubt it will.  You can already buy WotC books online pdfs from Rpgnow and drivethrurpg.com.  They aren't cheap.  The $1-2 fee for electronic D&D material is only if you bought the $30-40 hardcopy.  I doubt these will have any impact on the pdf market.  Indy companies will continue to produce pdf and pod products at likely the same prices as they are now.
> 
> Now as far as piracy is concerned I think they will do a lot to slow it down, which as a publisher I can appreciate.




Shrug. You may very well be right. It just seems that if WOTC starts offering the books + a digital copy at a very low price people might start expecting the same from all companies.


----------



## WhatGravitas

Lackhand said:
			
		

> If they charge per book, then you only pay for what you use. Win!



Yup. It avoids putting the extra cost (though it's much, much less than the cost for a hardcopy) onto the hardcopy price.

And it deters thiefs, and makes them trackable.

This concept sounds like 'win' to me! 

While I don't know what they'll do for the secondary market, I think there isn't such a huge secondary market for RPG books, that it'll really matter. After all, on the secondary market, you only get books, if a) you want to get them cheaper (in this case, you pay less, but don't et the online deal, which is fair IMO), or b) you try to get out-of-print stuff (in which case, the online copies are probably not available any more).

Cheers, LT.


----------



## IanArgent

One-use codes make me very nervous; either they can be invisibly stolen if they are not tamper-evident, or they "damage" the value of the book to a retailer if they are tamper-evident, as the tampered book will lose value to many (not all) customers. And, of course, the effect on the secondary market is bad as well.

On the other hand, WotC can use individual codes as "market-research". Plus, if they don't make the codes one-use, they get more money from people who would otherwise pirate the IP, along with the people who buy on the secondary market (who would otherwise give no money back to WotC).

(I'm NOT trying to equate IP pirates with purchasers of used books, rather the opposite).

I also don't expect this issue to be clarified any time soon - it's a business decision that may not have been made yet; plus it can be changed from one-use to multiple-use, but not vice versa...


----------



## Lackhand

The latest person to use a code is "more" innocent than the first person to use it (as the probability that someone has purchased it increases).

Always grant a request for a .pdf download. Inform both downloaders that two copies of "their book" exist. Flag them, start a dialogue, figure out what's going on.

If the download requests come from different gleemax accounts/real-world-credit-cards-that-belong-to-unrelated-people, it's clear that something's screwy.

This doesn't really hurt the secondary market too much: they get the same thing they always got on the secondary market, the physical book. Anything else associated with the book is caveat emptor. To be really safe, remove the code before selling the book (or scribble it out or whatever).

Sorry: This is all speculation, but it's fairly reasonable speculation, I think. It doesn't make a lot of (business) sense to do it any other way, but then, I'm no businessman!


----------



## Kesh

The only way I can see a one-use code being useful is as a scratch-off area on the inside cover. And, having worked for a pay-as-you-go cell phone company, I can attest that some people are daft enough to scratch _so hard_ they rub the number right off. That's going to annoy people to no end.

Plus, as others said, while you can catch the folks who "stole" the codes, what happens to the poor sap who bought the book with the stolen code? What about resale?

The only thing I can figure for the latter is that Wizards may offer to let folks buy the PDF _directly_ online, without having purchased the physical book, but at a much higher price than the "unlock" version ($15-20). That doesn't help the poor saps who bought a book with a stolen code, though.


----------



## mmaranda

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> Scott:
> 2.  What happens in the secondary market?




I'm also concerned about the secondary market for these books.


----------



## Mercule

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> Um, where did I say anything about the write up being random hype? All I said was I got sick of reading Windows rich... Considering I've worked in IT for 6 years now at one of the world's largest domain providers, I know what a Windows rich client is. I just got sick of reading it. It has nothing to do with me not knowing what the term is and everything to do with the fact that they designed this straight up for Windows-based machines. Yuck!




I made an assumption that no one in the industry would break down the phrase as "Windows rich" and omit the "client".  So, I responded accordingly and explained the term.

The part about the hype comes from my noticing that "Windows rich" does actually sound like a PR bit.  Plus, I couldn't figure out what else you would object to with that specific phrase.


----------



## PoeticJustice

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> [And before this blossoms into a discussion of intellectual property rights, remember this: What you're downloading is a unique digital object assigned to the book you bought. If somebody steals that, they've stolen your right to access the digital version of the book. YOU are the loser in a very real way, not some giant corporation is a very intangible way.]




But then how does one keep someone from browsing a book without buying and copying down the number? Traditional retail methods don't really work for RPG supplements.


----------



## Mouseferatu

You know, I buy some of my books from Half-Price and other secondary sources. So I'm certainly sympathetic.

But I have to say, if this is a problem for the secondary market... I'm not sure it matters. It just means people pay for the book, and only get the book--exactly as things are right now, and have been for all the years before the DDI existed.

I really don't think it's incumbent on WotC to make sure that an _optional extra_ is available for people who make secondary market purchases. Sure, it would be nice if they _could_, but I hardly think it needs to be their priority, or that it's somehow a failing on their part if they don't.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler

My concern for this is for the brick and mortar store. 

Will they have to shrink-wrap their D&D 4e books to keep people from copying/scratching off/stealing the code? 

If they do, that's one more reason for people to buy their books online.


----------



## Ceresco

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> I got it. WotC could put a sealed enevelope in the back of their books with a unique code in it. Then when you use the code to purchase the online copy of the book, it gets a digital watermark identifying you as the owner.
> 
> Buyers are protected by knowing whether the code has been open and used, and WotC knows who is responsible if a digital copy gets leaked on the web.




Many of my nursing text books have a scratch off card attached with the code for accessing online support. When you buy a used text you know what you're getting up front. The code allows an account to be created and that is password protected.


----------



## PoeticJustice

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> You know, I buy some of my books from Half-Price and other secondary sources. So I'm certainly sympathetic.
> 
> But I have to say, if this is a problem for the secondary market... I'm not sure it matters. It just means people pay for the book, and only get the book--exactly as things are right now, and have been for all the years before the DDI existed.
> 
> I really don't think it's incumbent on WotC to make sure that an _optional extra_ is available for people who make secondary market purchases. Sure, it would be nice if they _could_, but I hardly think it needs to be their priority, or that it's somehow a failing on their part if they don't.




That's interesting, but not actually what I was referring to. I assume they'll take some measure to protect this feature, or they, as a publisher, may as well be selling books for one or two bucks a shot. I say this because, if they do nothing, a custome could just go into a store, copy the number in the back of the book, and go on his merry way. How do they get around that?

Shrink wrap? Not happening unless a lot of people are willing to buy before browsing. I can't speak for others, but I never buy RPG stuff sight unseen.

Keep the book behind counter or lock -and-key? Same problems?

A scratch off insert in the back of the book? I may sound pessimistic, but there's going to be at least one scumbag who takes the info without buying the actual book.


See, these are ways textbook companies protect their books' online functionality. They work because people buy textbooks sight unseen and often somebody has to get the book for them off the shelf. I struggle to think of an alternate method that would allow for the buyer and only the buyer to get the electronic copy, and I hope somebody at Wizards is more inventive than I.


----------



## SteveC

I just wanted to be a little bit of the voice of doom here, because I haven't done that in a while. Individual codes in a book is really a waste of time, since it requires ongoing resources to manage and maintain, and won't address the piracy issue at all.

Here's another *stone-cold, lead-pipe lock prediction*: you will find all of the D&D books for 4E on P2P sharing networks within 72 hours of the books launch. And that's probably 48 hours too long.

So I enter this code and go to WotC's website and download my ebook version of the PHB. Is that a one-time thing or many? If it's many times, what happens when my account is lost or disabled? Is there some time limit for how long I have to activate my download? If so, how about that book that's been sitting in the warehouse for a year before I ordered it? What happens when my code simply doesn't work?

Ugh!

Far better to simply have a reasonably priced download service available for the books entirely separate from the original purchase. I'd pay $10 (each) for a normal PDF (bookmarked, searchable) of every D&D book I own, and I am not alone here.

--Steve


----------



## Ander00

As long as I don't hear anything concrete about DDI subscriptions without one or both of the magazines, I will remain uninterested.


cheers


----------



## Exen Trik

Regardless of how protected the electronic versions are, it won't stop someone from just scanning the book and distributing it that way. On the other hand, the official version is likely to be of much better quality and usefulness, and nothing beats having the actual book in your hands. Together, they make doing it legally much more appealing than having just having a bootleg scan. 

And really, that's what makes an anti-piracy effort successful: making the legal option also be the better, easier one.


----------



## Scribble

Exen Trik said:
			
		

> Regardless of how protected the electronic versions are, it won't stop someone from just scanning the book and distributing it that way. On the other hand, the official version is likely to be of much better quality and usefulness, and nothing beats having the actual book in your hands. Together, they make doing it legally much more appealing than having just having a bootleg scan.
> 
> And really, that's what makes an anti-piracy effort successful: making the legal option also be the better, easier one.




Exactly... I'm pretty sure WOTC knows that they aren't going to be the company that somehow manages to defeat digital piracy once and for all.

They're just taking a tip from itunes... 

People are for the most part honest. 

People are also, for the moster part, lazy and cheap. 

If you make the legal copy easy to get, and not very much money, it will be less of a PITA to just buy the thing, and DL it, instead of wasting hours online searching for a copy that is both good and doesn't have a virus attached. Plus it works with their other online stuff. (And I'm guessing the people they're marketing this too are people like me. Who like the hard copy, but want the digital copy for game prep.)

They also protect the brick and morter shops as well. Instead of forcing an either or, they make the two products work in synch. 

What I think they will do is have some sort of system like they have when you buy gift cards, or phone cards...  You can steal the card, but it won't do a darn thing unless it's been activated by the cashier. Easy to do with an RFID tag. Small enough to fit in the book without making it awkward.

Won't do much for the second hand book trade, but as other have said, thats not really WOTCs concern.


----------



## Brown Jenkin

Exen Trik said:
			
		

> Regardless of how protected the electronic versions are, it won't stop someone from just scanning the book and distributing it that way. On the other hand, the official version is likely to be of much better quality and usefulness, and nothing beats having the actual book in your hands. Together, they make doing it legally much more appealing than having just having a bootleg scan.
> 
> And really, that's what makes an anti-piracy effort successful: making the legal option also be the better, easier one.




Or people just get a fully digital watermarked copy that works perfectly fine from someone who used a fake account and the file sits in some Eurasian server that WotC can't go after in the courts.


----------



## caperpger

I have nor read everything in the thread. But i want to know about the fee WOTC is charging for you to access the eletronic copy of the book. 
Is it a one time fee? do they charge you EVERY time you access it? is it a monthly fee?


----------



## Mark

(contact) said:
			
		

> I've got a number of pals from this site that I could be playing with online.





Count me among them when the time comes.


----------



## JVisgaitis

Mercule said:
			
		

> I made an assumption that no one in the industry would break down the phrase as "Windows rich" and omit the "client".  So, I responded accordingly and explained the term.
> 
> The part about the hype comes from my noticing that "Windows rich" does actually sound like a PR bit.  Plus, I couldn't figure out what else you would object to with that specific phrase.




Understandable. Probably my fault for not using Windows rich client. I know better and didn't think anyone here would catch that. My bad... That's what happens when one posts at work in a hurry I suppose.


----------



## SlyFlourish

*I like it*

For my vote, I'd much prefer a digitally signed PDF for cheap than anything with DRM. Knowing that my PDFs can be backed up and stored long after the DRM system expires (all DRM systems expire sometime - take a look at the videos people bought from google or the original music sold by Microsoft or the old Circuit City Divx movies that no longer work).

I'm happy with this solution.


----------



## Hussar

My prediction:

The books will come with some sort of scratch card inside the cover.  The code will be tied to that specific book.  You have to give credit card information to unlock your book (only way to pay) and that will give you a watermarked PDF that you can use to your heart's content.

For the person who steals, well, that's an awful lot of PITA to go through - get a credit card in a fake name, pay the 2 bucks, cancel the credit card so they can't go after you.  Sure, someone will probably do it, but, who cares?  The vast majority of people will simply pony up the buck or two and download the legal content.

Sounds like a pretty stellar idea to me.


----------



## IanArgent

mshea said:
			
		

> For my vote, I'd much prefer a digitally signed PDF for cheap than anything with DRM. Knowing that my PDFs can be backed up and stored long after the DRM system expires (all DRM systems expire sometime - take a look at the videos people bought from google or the original music sold by Microsoft or the old Circuit City Divx movies that no longer work).
> 
> I'm happy with this solution.




I won't be buying copy-protected material.

I'll accept digitally signed/watermarked. But I won't buy a heavy-DRM book. I own a couple I got free from a promotion a while back, and I can't read them becaus eI can't activate any device any more.


----------



## Zogmo

*Yea, what about this?*



			
				Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> You know, I buy some of my books from Half-Price and other secondary sources. So I'm certainly sympathetic.
> 
> But I have to say, if this is a problem for the secondary market... I'm not sure it matters. It just means people pay for the book, and only get the book--exactly as things are right now, and have been for all the years before the DDI existed.
> 
> I really don't think it's incumbent on WotC to make sure that an _optional extra_ is available for people who make secondary market purchases. Sure, it would be nice if they _could_, but I hardly think it needs to be their priority, or that it's somehow a failing on their part if they don't.




I believe the secondary market will have to go without access to the ebooks if someone already used the unique code.  My thought is that I buy the DMs guide, register the ebook, then sell my hard copy to a used book store and keep the ebook as my main source.  

Whoever buys my hard copy isn't going to get the ebook because I legally own the ebook still and WotC won't be bothered with keeping track of who owns what after the initial purchase and registration.  

WotC isn't going to start keeping track of who the latest owner of the hard copy is and who owns the ebook and then keep track of that for the life of the product as it changes from person to person to person.  Too much trouble.


----------



## Mercule

Ander00 said:
			
		

> As long as I don't hear anything concrete about DDI subscriptions without one or both of the magazines, I will remain uninterested.




Maybe I'm not understanding you, but I don't get why you'd specifically want the DDI w/o the magazines.  Are you just hoping for a lower price or is it sour grapes over the elimination of the print version?


----------



## mxyzplk

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Keep in mind also that the nominal fee creates accountability that, in the end, protects you.
> 
> By charging a small fee, WotC makes it impossible to anonymously take ownership of the digital version of the book.




Every D&D 3.5 book is available via BitTorrent already.  All that charging for PDF access will do is cause people to go download it elsewhere rather than pay Wizards.  So - knock yourselves out.


----------



## Nifft

mxyzplk said:
			
		

> Every D&D 3.5 book is available via BitTorrent already.  All that charging for PDF access will do is cause people to go download it elsewhere rather than pay Wizards.  So - knock yourselves out.



 Not quite true.

If it's cheap enough, I'll happily pay for a PDF that I can cut & paste from, and that's smaller & easier to read than those giant scan-PDFs (uh... which I've heard about).

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Hussar

mxyzplk said:
			
		

> Every D&D 3.5 book is available via BitTorrent already.  All that charging for PDF access will do is cause people to go download it elsewhere rather than pay Wizards.  So - knock yourselves out.




If that were true, Itunes would be out of business already.  ITunes has shown that people will pay what they consider to be a reasonable price for access to something they want.

Those that still pirate music continue to do so.  But, there's certainly a decent amount of money to be made from honest people.

Plus, that bit torrented book you DL won't give you the bennies associated with the virtual tabletop and the chargen program.  Depends on what you want I suppose.


----------



## portermj

A few of my take aways:

The getting a lower subscription for the DDI if you give up the magazines it interesting because it shows that there is no hard and fast point at which offering extra content becomes nickle and diming.

One factor in the Paizo free PDF vs WOTC couple bucks Dataset and Ebook is that Paizo has less of a piracy concern.  Paizo has a much smaller audience so it is less worthwhile to pirate their product.  It is like how Macs don't get viruses because relatively few people use Macs compared to PC and so the effort it takes to make a virus is better rewarded by designing it to attack Windows users.  It isn't that Macs are better designed to stop viruses, remember, the first virus was written to affect Apples.  Likewise, it isn't that Paizo has better motives, it is that they don't have to worry as much about Piracy.

Putting CDs in books doesn't seem like a good idea.  First, adding something that bulkly can affect the shipping weight raising the cost for retailers.  Second, I think CDs are on the way out and will be replaced by zip drives.  A sticker covering a printed code should be the trick.

I don't think the pen and paper guy going into the Game Store to get codes is going to be much of a concern.  First, the person stealing the code would have to put some sort of credit/identity information to access the book.  Second, the person buying the book would physically have the book and a recipt which would be proof of ownership of the book and entitlement to the benefits of the code.  So the thief would be stealing something that would get noticed and he would be giving contact information to the people that would want to catch him.  I know there are dumb criminals, but that would be beyond dumb.

I'm not sure how the secondary market would be affected.  One the one hand it would be nice if you could buy a used book and just pay the fee to get the dataset.  But on the other hand, there isn't a big cost to WOTC in not set up a way to account for the secondary market.  Setting up a system that is only concerned about the people first buying the books has to be cheaper than setting up a system that takes into account reselling.  Plus it sets up an incentive to basically pass the book around which would cut into sales of the real world books.

Another aspect of the used book market problem is that when I sell a 3rd Edition Monster Manual I am giving up ownership of the entire product that I bought.  In other words, I had a book, I sold the book, now I don't have the book.  Buying the 4th Edition Monster Manual involves more than just buying the book.  It also involves buying the right to active the E-book and dataset.  If I sell the phsyical 4th Edition Monster Manual am I just selling the phsyical book or am I selling everything I got when I bought the 4th Edition Monster Manual in the first place?  Unless there is an easy way to transfer the digital property at the same time as the physical book I'm inclined to just say that buying a used 4th edition book means you are just buying the physical 4th edition book, nothing else.

That said, I would like to see support for people that just want to buy the online product.  My opinion on what the price should be would be no more than what you get for selling a book to your distributors (25% MSRP?).


----------



## portermj

mxyzplk said:
			
		

> Every D&D 3.5 book is available via BitTorrent already.  All that charging for PDF access will do is cause people to go download it elsewhere rather than pay Wizards.  So - knock yourselves out.




Why would people who aren't using BitTorrent now, even though WOTC doesn't offer Ebooks for 3.5, suddenly start using BitTorrent once WOTC does decide to offer Ebooks?  It would almost have to go the other direction.  People who only used BitTorrent because PDFs weren't offered will now go to WOTC.


----------



## Scribble

Zip Drives? I haven't seen a Zip Drive since like 1998... 

Datasticks maybe... But not Zip Drives... Those things is dead.

But I revised my thoughts to just a barcode or RFID like when you buy a gift card.

In anycase, I don't think WOTC really plans to support transfer of the digital file in the secondary market. You can't sell a used PDF now ight? Just like you can't really sell MP3s that you bought and no longer want. 

The used market will now mean people who don't want/need the nifty online materials. But who knows, maybe they'll sell the PDFs without the books, as well.


----------



## epochrpg

Scribble said:
			
		

> Shrug. You may very well be right. It just seems that if WOTC starts offering the books + a digital copy at a very low price people might start expecting the same from all companies.




I've always offered free digital copies with hardcopy purchase just as common curtosy to the customer.  I don't expect to start charging a dollar or two extra for this-- as a small publisher, I need to work harder for the business I get-- and that's just the way it is.  If that means giving away more freebies to keep customers happy, so be it.


----------



## epochrpg

SteveC said:
			
		

> Far better to simply have a reasonably priced download service available for the books entirely separate from the original purchase. I'd pay $10 (each) for a normal PDF (bookmarked, searchable) of every D&D book I own, and I am not alone here.
> 
> --Steve




Unfortunately, the DnD books you own if they are of the current edition, are not selling for $10 as pdfs.  Those books are listed AT FULL PRICE-- $30-40 each.  Think I'm making this up?  Look here: http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=44&filters=0_0_0


----------



## MonkeeGalore

*The VTT?*

I've been thinking about the virtual miniatures for the VTT. Just guessing here, but I can imagine several scenarios:

1)When subscribing to the DDI, I get access to all virtual minis – as many copies of each as I would like. This is, of course, my favorite option since it’s free and versatile for me to use (need 50 kobolds for an encounter? They’re there)

2)I can buy single virtual minis through my DDI subscription. I need a dragon – I buy a dragon. Possibly with some sort of “basic set” of minis that’s available for all subscribers. This will be fine for me as well, as long as the virtual minis are is reasonably priced.

3)WotC ties the physical product to the virtual one, just like the books. So if I buy a box of minis, I get a code that unlock these specific virtual minis. I don’t think this is actually possible, though. Does WotC even know what’s in each randomly packed mini booster pack? Do they have this information in a database? I seriously doubt this. 

4)You can buy random boosterpacks of virtual minis. I would hate this, for the same reasons that I hate random boxes of physical minis. 

Personally, I don’t buy random boosters today, but instead I buy single miniatures from stores that sell these individually. This way I get the miniatures that I want, and it’s not that expensive since the common ones are pretty cheap. So for me, option 3 would pretty much make it impossible for me to use the VTT. I’m wishing for option 1, but I don’t think it’s realistic; virtual minis seems like too good a business to just give away. So I’m guessing 2 or 4, and really hoping that it’s not 4.

Does anyone else have an idea as to how they’re going to handle virtual minis?


----------



## Matthias

portermj said:
			
		

> Putting CDs in books doesn't seem like a good idea.  First, adding something that bulkly can affect the shipping weight raising the cost for retailers.  Second, I think CDs are on the way out and will be replaced by zip drives.  A sticker covering a printed code should be the trick.




There is technology that lets one 'burn' and read paper CD's -- Literally. Granted it may not be currently widely available but it's something to consider.

WOTC could also resort to so-called "business card" CDs. The memory capacity of an e-book CD is much less of a concern than the mass or volume of the CD itself, unless WOTC wanted to include PDFs of all the important tables, table of contents, and index of said book, among other things (such as web enhancements and other material cut prior to publication) as filler, without providing the whole book itself.


----------



## Ander00

Mercule said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm not understanding you, but I don't get why you'd specifically want the DDI w/o the magazines.  Are you just hoping for a lower price or is it sour grapes over the elimination of the print version?



Character generation tools, connected to a database which contains all the material in books I've bought, I would be interested in. I don't find Dragon magazine (whether in print or in online form) interesting enough to pay the full price for it. And I  certainly don't see the point in every member of a gaming group subscribing to Dungeon when, realistically, only one member will be running any given adventure.
If I remember correctly, initially, there was something said about purchasing individual articles and a basic DDI subscription covering just the online tools. I'd be on board if it worked like that (but not for a full $10/month subscription plan), but I haven't seen any mention of these ideas recently.


cheers


----------



## Aus_Snow

Nifft said:
			
		

> If it's cheap enough, I'll happily pay for a PDF that I can cut & paste from (. . .)



I already pay for PDFs I can C&P *and print* from.

Out of interest, will these PDFs (the ones you can buy for $1 or $2, after buying the hard copy) be copy/paste- and print-enabled?


----------



## cyberpunk

I'm disappointed. A PDF is lazy! I've already got the index and TOC in my printed book. All they're adding is search capability, which isn't fast enough for the game table. 

4e is supposed to speed up play.


----------



## portermj

Scribble said:
			
		

> Zip Drives? I haven't seen a Zip Drive since like 1998...
> 
> Datasticks maybe... But not Zip Drives... Those things is dead.




Oops, I meant Flash Drive.


----------



## JoelF

Mercule said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm not understanding you, but I don't get why you'd specifically want the DDI w/o the magazines.  Are you just hoping for a lower price or is it sour grapes over the elimination of the print version?





I'm also looking for DDI without the magazines, or with one magazine but not the other.  It has nothing to do with sour grapes, it has to do with the fact that I'm not that impressed with the new versions of the magazines currently, and also, for a while I've been tempted to stop subscribing to Dragon, but keep my Dungeon subscription - before the print versions got killed.  Furthermore, in general it's good for consumers to be able to buy products separately as well as bundled.


----------



## Hussar

JoelF said:
			
		

> I'm also looking for DDI without the magazines, or with one magazine but not the other.  It has nothing to do with sour grapes, it has to do with the fact that I'm not that impressed with the new versions of the magazines currently, and also, for a while I've been tempted to stop subscribing to Dragon, but keep my Dungeon subscription - before the print versions got killed.  Furthermore, in general it's good for consumers to be able to buy products separately as well as bundled.




Not necessarily.  More options increase costs which get passed onto the consumer.  By making everyone have the same package, they can charge less than if you separated it out into individual packages.  Individual packages would mean that you would need separate accounts for those who can access different material, which would mean separate security measures and so on and so forth.

By putting everything into one account, they actually reduce costs.  Remember, membership isn't just for the magazines, there is also the chargen, VTT, and dungeon builder as well.  Separating out several variations of membership types is probably far more trouble than its worth.


----------



## Irda Ranger

Hussar said:
			
		

> Not necessarily.  More options increase costs which get passed onto the consumer.  By making everyone have the same package, they can charge less than if you separated it out into individual packages.  Individual packages would mean that you would need separate accounts for those who can access different material, which would mean separate security measures and so on and so forth.
> 
> By putting everything into one account, they actually reduce costs.  Remember, membership isn't just for the magazines, there is also the chargen, VTT, and dungeon builder as well.  Separating out several variations of membership types is probably far more trouble than its worth.



Well, that's a question for the bean counters.

But I haven't subscribed to Dungeon or Dragon for almost ten years now, and how no intent of starting again.  I might be interested in the game table though, for something less than $9.99/mo.  That's why I'm hoping they'll go with a more _a la carte_ system.

I'm a bit worried that Scott hasn't replied to my two questions though.  They're both "easy" answers; so if they don't get answered its either because he doesn't want to (deliver bad news), or they just don't know yet - which is a different kind of unsettling.  Hopefully though he hasn't just because he's really busy and will get to it eventually.


----------



## (contact)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Not quite true.
> 
> If it's cheap enough, I'll happily pay for a PDF that I can cut & paste from, and that's smaller & easier to read than those giant scan-PDFs (uh... which I've heard about).
> 
> Cheers, -- N




+1

In fact, I recently bought the entire Age of Worms Adventure Path on .pdf and for the way I run these things, it's much better for me.  I can cull out images, mark them up, put all the stat blocks onto one page, etc.

Cut and paste FTW!


----------



## (contact)

cyberpunk said:
			
		

> I'm disappointed. A PDF is lazy! I've already got the index and TOC in my printed book. All they're adding is search capability, which isn't fast enough for the game table.
> 
> 4e is supposed to speed up play.




For me, .pdfs are worth their (megabyte) weight in (virtual) gold when prepping for a session.  I've used a complied SRD .pdf for game prep for the last five years or so.

It lets me pull the stuff I think I'll need from the ruleset/adventure and lay it out as I see fit, for ease and speed of use.

.pdf has been making my games faster for years.

Nonetheless, books are more fun to use at the table, and have a nostalgic value as well as being a bit more resistant to spilled beer, coffee, spit or blood.


----------



## Hussar

Irda Ranger - honestly, I think if you're looking at just a VTT, then you're probably much better off with any of the ones already on the market.  Paying 120 bucks a year for just a VTT and a chargen program is way too much IMO.

I really, really hope that they actually unbuckle the VTT from the DI and make it free for everyone to use.  After all, the more people they can entice to play the game, the more books they sell.  So, it makes sense to me to give out a platform that everyone (well everyone but Mac users, but they don't matter  ((I kid I kid)) )  can use to play on.

But, that's just my opinion of course.

--edit for another thought--

Even if they simply made a lite version of the VTT.  One that does none of the autocalculating for you, for example, or doesn't come bundled with minis (you have to make your own tokens) would be a very nice nod to the community.


----------



## RFisher

Hussar said:
			
		

> Those that still pirate music continue to do so.  But, there's certainly a decent amount of money to be made from honest people.




Yep.

Two assumptions that are often made about "intellectual property piracy":
if people who like a product can pirate it, most of them will
if people can't pirate, the pirates will pay for a copy
All the evidence I've seen suggests that neither are true.


----------



## carmachu

ZappoHisbane said:
			
		

> So you're expecting to pay a fixed monthly fee, and get free access to all published materials?  Methinks you're expecting a little much there.  The unique code lets WotC confirm (in theory) that you are in fact the legit owner of the book.  If you buy a used book, caveat emptor.



  I agree the code is there to 'coinfirm' that you indeed have the hardcover book....but I'd rather the nomial fee be built back into either the subscription and/or the book price....It just has a nickle and dime feel.

I have no issues confirming myself...just....has a bad feel to it....


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

RFisher said:
			
		

> Yep.
> 
> Two assumptions that are often made about "intellectual property piracy":
> if people who like a product can pirate it, most of them will
> if people can't pirate, the pirates will pay for a copy
> All the evidence I've seen suggests that neither are true.



Well, also, the premise of the second assumption almost always fails to obtain.  I think I remember that it took only a couple of weeks before people were starting to report cracked DRM-"protected" PDFs after DriveThruRPG started producing them...and this demonstrated the futility of the exercise, and was part of the basis for dropping DRM.  There is no "if people can't pirate."


----------



## 3catcircus

Ok - I'm getting into this thread very late (due to being without internet access for the past week).

I don't buy the "...nominal fee... to cover their overhead" argument.  The pdf *already* exists as a result of the publishing process - they don't have to spend time and energy creating a pdf since it just has to sit on a server.

Any pdf that WotC offers for a nominal fee will most likely have some form of DRM (watermarks, password-protected, whatever).  It doesn't matter.  Within hours, a completely clean, unrestricted pdf will be shared on p2p networks.

The only thing this will do is prevent legitimate customers from using content the way they want.  I predict that this is solely designed to prevent the DM from giving copies of books to his players as pdfs.


----------



## Nifft

3catcircus said:
			
		

> The only thing this will do is prevent legitimate customers from using content the way they want.  I predict that this is solely designed to prevent the DM from giving copies of books to his players as pdfs.



 You mention watermarking and DRM, but this objection only applies to DRM.

How would a watermarked PDF limit your ability to share with your group?

Cheers, -- N

PS: I too hate DRM, but watermarking isn't bad at all. At least, I can't think of anything it prevents me from doing.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Ok - I'm getting into this thread very late (due to being without internet access for the past week).
> 
> I don't buy the "...nominal fee... to cover their overhead" argument.



What about the "nominal fee to ensure security by forcing the identification of the registrant" argument?


----------



## WhatGravitas

carmachu said:
			
		

> I agree the code is there to 'coinfirm' that you indeed have the hardcover book....but I'd rather the nomial fee be built back into either the subscription and/or *the book price*....It just has a nickle and dime feel.



Which I strongly oppose (the book price thing), because then you'll buy something, you don't want to get. I don't know, whether to use VTT or not. But if I pay for VTT, without even using it, just because I got the book, then I'm unhappy. Or, to be polite, extremely displeased.

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Which I strongly oppose (the book price thing), because then you'll buy something, you don't want to get. I don't know, whether to use VTT or not. But if I pay for VTT, without even using it, just because I got the book, then I'm unhappy. Or, to be polite, extremely displeased.
> 
> Cheers, LT.



The fee to unlock the electronic edition of the book has nothing to do with the fee for accessing the VTT.  You don't gain access to the VTT by paying the "nominal fee".  Rather, you pay for a DDI subscription to get the VTT.


----------



## Deverash

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> The fee to unlock the electronic edition of the book has nothing to do with the fee for accessing the VTT.  You don't gain access to the VTT by paying the "nominal fee".  Rather, you pay for a DDI subscription to get the VTT.




His point, though, remains.  If he's not going to be using the electronic version, then if it's included in the cover price, then he's paying for something he'll never use and doesn't want but doesn't have any choice about.


----------



## Maggan

portermj said:
			
		

> even though WOTC doesn't offer Ebooks for 3.5, suddenly start using BitTorrent once WOTC does decide to offer Ebooks?




WotC are offering pdf versions of some (well, 56 to be exact) of their D&D 3.5 books on http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/index.php?cPath=160.

At those prices, I say "no". I buy the hardbacks already, but I don't want to shell out 30 bucks again for the pdf version.

For a dollar or two? I'll buy the pdf version.

/M


----------



## Intrope

Maggan said:
			
		

> WotC are offering pdf versions of some (well, 56 to be exact) of their D&D 3.5 books on http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/index.php?cPath=160.
> 
> At those prices, I say "no". I buy the hardbacks already, but I don't want to shell out 30 bucks again for the pdf version.
> 
> For a dollar or two? I'll buy the pdf version.
> 
> /M



 Amen: at $1-2 dollars, I'll unlock every tome I buy[1]! (well, OK: I won't unlock the two Preview books  

It seems well worth it to me: a pdf version, with errata interpolated, and full ability interpolation in the character gen for ~$1.50? 

[1] Which is likely to be most of them...


----------



## 3catcircus

Nifft said:
			
		

> You mention watermarking and DRM, but this objection only applies to DRM.
> 
> How would a watermarked PDF limit your ability to share with your group?
> 
> Cheers, -- N
> 
> PS: I too hate DRM, but watermarking isn't bad at all. At least, I can't think of anything it prevents me from doing.




True - watermarking generally won't prevent you from sharing with your group, but most of the other types of security will.  And - nothing prevents them from watermarking *and* adding DRM features.


----------



## 3catcircus

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> What about the "nominal fee to ensure security by forcing the identification of the registrant" argument?




Security can *always* be broken.  Better to just offer choices:  the basic book, the "deluxe" book with a pdf on CD included for a few more dollars, and just a pdf for an even cheaper price.

Something along the lines of:  $29.99 (or whatever their price point is) for the basic book, add on another $5 for the deluxe book, and charge $3.99 for just a pdf.

I just have a hard spot with the idea that they are currently charging almost book price for their pdfs when it costs them less than a nickel to make a pdf.  Sure - they have to spend time and effort laying out the text and graphics, but once the pre-flight stuff is completed, clicking the little Adobe button to distill everything into a pdf is a few minutes of time and a few electrons worth of energy - and they generally have to distill the thing *anyway* in order to prepare things for the printers.

Bottom-line - pdf's are something that they have to do *anyway*, so it isn't like someone is sitting down at a computer and clicking "print to pdf" everytime someone orders a pdf online.

Stick it on a server, charge a few bucks, and sell a bunch of them.

No DRM, no watermarking, no nearly-book price for a pdf.


----------



## ThirdWizard

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Something along the lines of:  $29.99 (or whatever their price point is) for the basic book, add on another $5 for the deluxe book, and charge $3.99 for just a pdf.




By "deluxe" do you mean with a downloadable pdf? You are aware that the e-book will be about $2, right?



> Bottom-line - pdf's are something that they have to do *anyway*, so it isn't like someone is sitting down at a computer and clicking "print to pdf" everytime someone orders a pdf online.




Remember, it also unlocks access to the database on the VTT, which is something that must be maintained with each book release.


----------



## Nifft

3catcircus said:
			
		

> True - watermarking generally won't prevent you from sharing with your group, but most of the other types of security will.  And - nothing prevents them from watermarking *and* adding DRM features.



 I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's very unlikely they'll do both.

By "most other types of security" you just mean DRM, right? Or are there other kinds?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## portermj

Maggan said:
			
		

> WotC are offering pdf versions of some (well, 56 to be exact) of their D&D 3.5 books on http://enworld.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=160.
> 
> At those prices, I say "no". I buy the hardbacks already, but I don't want to shell out 30 bucks again for the pdf version.
> 
> For a dollar or two? I'll buy the pdf version.
> 
> /M




It is wierd how they are doing it now.  I'm suprised they have any takers at that price.  Must be a gift to B & Ms.  Only further supports my arguement that people that are currently nonusers of BitTorrent will not switch when the price goes from $30 to $2.

I'd still like to have an option to not by the physical books.  I can see value in the 4th edition books if they include add ons to the dungeon/encounter/character building parts of the DDI.  Maybe $5-10 depending on how crunchy it is.  Not going to hold my breath though.  If the Core books ever hit the web for $10 a pop the distributors and every B & M owner will cry bloody murder.


----------



## Nifft

portermj said:
			
		

> It is wierd how they are doing it now.  I'm suprised they have any takers at that price.  Must be a gift to B & Ms.  Only further supports my arguement that people that are currently nonusers of BitTorrent will not switch when the price goes from $30 to $2.



 Hold on a sec... could you explain how this fact supports your argument?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Deverash said:
			
		

> His point, though, remains.  If he's not going to be using the electronic version, then if it's included in the cover price, then he's paying for something he'll never use and doesn't want but doesn't have any choice about.



Well, I'm not speaking to that point at all.  I'm just making sure he doesn't have a completely erroneous idea of how the pricing system is supposed to work.  There are good reasons why the fee will not be included in the price of the book, not least of which is the fact that by including it in the price of the book you defeat the purpose of charging the activation fee in the first place: security.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Security can *always* be broken.  Better to just offer choices:  the basic book, the "deluxe" book with a pdf on CD included for a few more dollars, and just a pdf for an even cheaper price.



The security here isn't really for WotC.  It's for the customer.  By paying $1 with a credit card, it can be proven who paid for the book, so if someone guesses at a code and activates it, it can be traced when the book that really contains that code is purchased and the swindle discovered.  Since the book will be available on the internet within a week of release anyway, there's really no other benefit.  It's not going to prevent piracy.

However, it will mean that the majority of D&D players will have electronic editions of their books.  And they'll be constantly reminded that for just $10 a month, they can plug those books into the DDI, which you can't do with pirated books.  The more electronic books you own, the better the DDI deal gets.  That's why WotC is even bothering to do this in the first place.  To get people signed up for their electronic services.  The e-books are just a hook.


----------



## portermj

Nifft said:
			
		

> Hold on a sec... could you explain how this fact supports your argument?
> 
> Cheers, -- N




There are people who are paying MSRP for pdf now instead of going to BitTorrent to get it for free.  With 4th edition that pdf becomes much cheaper and includes increased DDI functionality.  Why would people who aren't using BitTorrent now suddenly decide to use it when the legal version becomes a lot cheaper than the past version and has more features?


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

portermj said:
			
		

> There are people who are paying MSRP for pdf now instead of going to BitTorrent to get it for free.  With 4th edition that pdf becomes much cheaper and includes increased DDI functionality.  Why would people who aren't using BitTorrent now suddenly decide to use it when the legal version becomes a lot cheaper than the past version and has more features?



So, your argument is that they're not going to start using BitTorrent to download pirate PDFs as a result of WotC releasing $2 PDFs of their books?  That's hardly a controversial position.


----------



## Nifft

portermj said:
			
		

> There are people who are paying MSRP for pdf now instead of going to BitTorrent to get it for free.  With 4th edition that pdf becomes much cheaper and includes increased DDI functionality.  Why would people who aren't using BitTorrent now suddenly decide to use it when the legal version becomes a lot cheaper than the past version and has more features?



 Ah yes, that makes perfect sense.

However, the thing to note is that the intended market for those full-price PDFs is different from the market for the cheap add-on PDFs. The full price PDFs are mostly sold to folks who cannot get a hardcover, due to location.

In contrast, the cheap add-on PDFs are intended to be bought by folks who already have the hardcover books.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## 3catcircus

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> By "deluxe" do you mean with a downloadable pdf? You are aware that the e-book will be about $2, right?




Ok - so if just a pdf costs $2, then any additional cost beyond that and the basic price of the book for what would be the "deluxe edition" of the book would have to include the costs of pressing the CD (pennies), and the costs of glueing a CD pouch into the back cover.




> Remember, it also unlocks access to the database on the VTT, which is something that must be maintained with each book release.




And how many people really care about that?  I'd wager that the majority of the people who want pdfs want them so they don't have to lug a ton of books to their game, not to play over the internet.


----------



## 3catcircus

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> The security here isn't really for WotC.  It's for the customer.  By paying $1 with a credit card, it can be proven who paid for the book, so if someone guesses at a code and activates it, it can be traced when the book that really contains that code is purchased and the swindle discovered.  Since the book will be available on the internet within a week of release anyway, there's really no other benefit.  It's not going to prevent piracy.
> 
> However, it will mean that the majority of D&D players will have electronic editions of their books.  And they'll be constantly reminded that for just $10 a month, they can plug those books into the DDI, which you can't do with pirated books.  The more electronic books you own, the better the DDI deal gets.  That's why WotC is even bothering to do this in the first place.  To get people signed up for their electronic services.  The e-books are just a hook.




But if I don't want their DI, and just want a pdf, then they aren't protecting my security at all.  It is much easier buy either a deluxe version of the book with a "deluxe" serial number, or buy a pdf online, with a purchase order number and cross-ref them to the DI than it is to try and keep track of whether or not someone legitimately bought a hardcover book and crossreference three or more different sets of information.

Bottom-line - not everyone who wants a pdf wants the DI, and vice versa.

Offer everyone choices.


----------



## Hussar

But, if you want the pdf without the DI, then you get to buy the pdf at full price.  

The whole point of the pdf is that it integrates with the chargen, VTT and (presumably) any other features that get added to the DI.  

But, in any case, it's already been stated in this thread that you don't need to sign into the DI to unlock your book.  The DI and the pdf you get from unlocking your code are separate.  You will need a membership on the DI site, but, that's free, just like a membership at RPG Now is free.  

So, if you buy the book, you can spend an extra 2 bucks and get the pdf.  IF you are also a DI subscriber, you also get additional features linked into your DI programs.

This has been answered already, more than once.

The first time, Scott Rouse answered it SPECIFICALLY, in Post 62

I'm really, really getting the feeling that people are just looking for something to bitch about, rather than trying to gain any hard information.  Mr. Rouse has already answered most of the questions in this thread and people still can't be bothered to read.  Time and again, people bitch about how WOTC isn't being forthcoming, yet, when they give specific, exact answers to questions, people don't even bother to read them.

Sigh.


----------



## 3catcircus

Hussar said:
			
		

> I'm really, really getting the feeling that people are just looking for something to bitch about, rather than trying to gain any hard information.  Mr. Rouse has already answered most of the questions in this thread and people still can't be bothered to read.  Time and again, people bitch about how WOTC isn't being forthcoming, yet, when they give specific, exact answers to questions, people don't even bother to read them.
> 
> Sigh.




The problem *isn't* that people are looking for something to bitch about.  The problem is the well-established Hasbro corporate attitude that may end up having corporate guys require WotC low-level employees to lie to our faces about what they are going to do...

I much prefer being told the truth rather than being strung along.  Unfortunately - I don't see that happening from Hasbro and WotC.


----------



## ThirdWizard

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Offer everyone choices.




I don't understand what the difference is between having a choice between a normal PH for $30 and a deluxe PH (book + e-book) for $32 and what WotC is doing by selling the PH for $30 and allowing an optional e-book for $2. In both cases you're paying the same amount for the same thing. 

In fact, the way WotC is doing it is better because LGSs won't have to try to decide how many normal books vs. how many deluxe books to stock. Can you imagine how bad that would turn out? The LGSs have it bad enough as it is without WotC making life even more difficult for them. 



			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> I much prefer being told the truth rather than being strung along.  Unfortunately - I don't see that happening from Hasbro and WotC.




Guilty until proven innocent?


----------



## Hussar

3catcircus said:
			
		

> The problem *isn't* that people are looking for something to bitch about.  The problem is the well-established Hasbro corporate attitude that may end up having corporate guys require WotC low-level employees to lie to our faces about what they are going to do...
> 
> I much prefer being told the truth rather than being strung along.  Unfortunately - I don't see that happening from Hasbro and WotC.




Damned either way huh?  Either they aren't forthcoming enough, or they're lying.  Either way, doesn't make much sense for them to say anything does it?


----------



## RFisher

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Well, also, the premise of the second assumption almost always fails to obtain.  I think I remember that it took only a couple of weeks before people were starting to report cracked DRM-"protected" PDFs after DriveThruRPG started producing them...and this demonstrated the futility of the exercise, and was part of the basis for dropping DRM.  There is no "if people can't pirate."




Oh, certainly. It's the idea that if there _were_ perfect copy protection that the publisher would suddenly have a windfall equal to (or even a significant percentage of) the number of pirated copies that I find most preposterous, though.


----------



## Imaro

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> The security here isn't really for WotC.  It's for the customer.  By paying $1 with a credit card, it can be proven who paid for the book, so if someone guesses at a code and activates it, it can be traced when the book that really contains that code is purchased and the swindle discovered.  Since the book will be available on the internet within a week of release anyway, there's really no other benefit.  It's not going to prevent piracy.




I really fail to see how this is true.  Can't you purchase gift cards and bank cards that work just like credit cards and hold no real information about their user?  Furthermore, one can easily create an e-mail account on something like hotmail for "verification" purposes.  This all being said because my biggest concern with this model is those who go into stores and take the numbers without buying a book...or even purchase the book from some place like Borders and take it back after unlocking the PDF.  Then the person who actually buys the book gets screwed over.  I don't see these measures as preventing that at all.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Imaro said:
			
		

> I really fail to see how this is true.  Can't you purchase gift cards and bank cards that work just like credit cards and hold no real information about their user?  Furthermore, one can easily create an e-mail account on something like hotmail for "verification" purposes.  This all being said because my biggest concern with this model is those who go into stores and take the numbers without buying a book...or even purchase the book from some place like Borders and take it back after unlocking the PDF.  Then the person who actually buys the book gets screwed over.  I don't see these measures as preventing that at all.



There are lot of things we don't know yet:
1) Can you easily copy get the number without buying the book?
2) What will happen if you buy a book and notice that the number has already been used?
Will you be compensated? 
3) What will happen with the person that stole the number, once the steal is confirmed? 
4) How many D&D players have enough criminal energy to steal the number, or buy stolen numbers from someone else?


----------



## 3catcircus

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> There are lot of things we don't know yet:
> 1) Can you easily copy get the number without buying the book?
> 2) What will happen if you buy a book and notice that the number has already been used?
> Will you be compensated?
> 3) What will happen with the person that stole the number, once the steal is confirmed?
> 4) How many D&D players have enough criminal energy to steal the number, or buy stolen numbers from someone else?




It isn't about ease of stealing or criminal energy.  It is above perceived fairness.

Right now (i.e. 3.x books) I don't think that WotC charging full hardcover price for a pdf that they had to generate *anyway* in order to generate the hardcover is fair.  Judging from others' complaints, the consensus is that charging hardcover prices for a pdf is just gouging the customer.

What is so hard to grasp about the concept of charging one price for a hardcover and charging a different price for a pdf, with no strings attached either way?

1.  Not everyone who buys a hardcover wants a pdf.
2.  Not everyone who buys a pdf wants a hardcover.
3.  An even smaller portion of #'s 1 and 2, above, want access to WotC's DI/VTT/whatever.

WotC will maximize profit by taking those factors into account, which it doesn't appear as if they've done, judging by the "if you buy the book and buy a subscription, we'll give you the privilege of charging you even more money to allow you to purchase a pdf with all of these DI features."

I think the most annoying point about pdf's vs. hardcovers is that printers almost always *require* you to give them a pdf for them to pre-flight before starting a print run.  The costs are already accounted for in their print stream, so *any* price that they charge a customer is almost entirely pure profit.

For a small publisher that uses POD and vanity press work, it is different than for a big publisher like WotC.


----------



## ThirdWizard

3catcircus said:
			
		

> judging by the "if you buy the book and buy a subscription, we'll give you the privilege of charging you even more money to allow you to purchase a pdf with all of these DI features."




You don't have to have a subscription.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

3catcircus said:
			
		

> But if I don't want their DI, and just want a pdf, then they aren't protecting my security at all.



Except they are, because if someone steals your code, or guesses it, they can't register it without identifying themselves somehow so that the monetary transaction can go through.  That has nothing to do with DDI.  

My point concerning DDI is that once a ton of people, like you, have the electronic editions, they'll be able to tempt you into subscribing by telling you about all the great features you'd be able to use with your electronic editions if you sign up.  It'll be easier to market the DDI if you don't have to also make people buy data modules (one of the reasons I never got into e-tools) in order to access the functionality of their books.




> It is much easier buy either a deluxe version of the book with a "deluxe" serial number, or buy a pdf online, with a purchase order number and cross-ref them to the DI than it is to try and keep track of whether or not someone legitimately bought a hardcover book and crossreference three or more different sets of information.



Who is suggesting that they do that?


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Imaro said:
			
		

> I really fail to see how this is true.  Can't you purchase gift cards and bank cards that work just like credit cards and hold no real information about their user?



Will they accept anonymous payment methods?



> Furthermore, one can easily create an e-mail account on something like hotmail for "verification" purposes.



The only reason people use email for verification is to confirm:
1. That you are a real person
2. That you actually signed up for whatever registration they're trying to complete

I think it's safe to assume that most people know that free anonymous email is not a secure system for real monetary transactions.



> This all being said because my biggest concern with this model is those who go into stores and take the numbers without buying a book...or even purchase the book from some place like Borders and take it back after unlocking the PDF.  Then the person who actually buys the book gets screwed over.  I don't see these measures as preventing that at all.



1. Call customer services
2. Explain that your code is no good
3. Send proof of purchase (i.e. store receipt) and photocopy of your unique code
4. Wait
5. Receive new code

(6. WotC investigates the registered code, demands photocopy of code from registrant, if registrant cannot provide this, the code is disabled)


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> You don't have to have a subscription.



It's amazing how consistently this point is ignored.


----------



## Kesh

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Will they accept anonymous payment methods?




Sort of. There's "Gift card" credit cards which are purely anonymous, but usually can't be used online _because_ there's no name or address associated with them. You usually have to physically swipe these through a card reader to purchase anything.

Then there's pre-paid/pay-as-you-go credit cards, which _do_ have your name/address associated with them. So, those work anywhere, but no more anonymity.


----------



## Imaro

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> 1. Call customer services
> 2. Explain that your code is no good
> 3. Send proof of purchase (i.e. store receipt) and photocopy of your unique code
> 4. Wait
> 5. Receive new code
> 
> (6. WotC investigates the registered code, demands photocopy of code from registrant, if registrant cannot provide this, the code is disabled)





Okay, given that you can't get your book with a pre-paid or gift card (this I really don't see happening since I've used gift cards to purchase numerous things on the internet, since I don't like using my actual bank account).  How will WotC disable a code...the books are usable offline, which seems to suggest you can download it onto your hard drive or a CD or whatever.  How can they take this back?


----------



## 3catcircus

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Except they are, because if someone steals your code, or guesses it, they can't register it without identifying themselves somehow so that the monetary transaction can go through.  That has nothing to do with DDI.




Nope - they aren't.  Because they don't need to protect my security in the first place if they simply allow me to go to their site or RPGNow or any other e-tailer and buy a pdf for a few bucks.  No code needed, just my billing information.  I don't have to buy the hardcover.




> My point concerning DDI is that once a ton of people, like you, have the electronic editions, they'll be able to tempt you into subscribing by telling you about all the great features you'd be able to use with your electronic editions if you sign up.  It'll be easier to market the DDI if you don't have to also make people buy data modules (one of the reasons I never got into e-tools) in order to access the functionality of their books.




Again - I don't care about DDI.  I want portable information instead of lugging around a ton of books.  Rather than buy the book to get a special code to then be able to download a pdf, I just want to go online, provide my billing information, and download a pdf.  No DDI, no hardcover, just a pdf.

Almost every other publisher seems to understand this - Expeditious Retreat, Goodman Games, Necromancer, etc. 



> Who is suggesting that they do that?




I am.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Imaro said:
			
		

> Okay, given that you can't get your book with a pre-paid or gift card (this I really don't see happening since I've used gift cards to purchase numerous things on the internet, since I don't like using my actual bank account).  How will WotC disable a code...the books are usable offline, which seems to suggest you can download it onto your hard drive or a CD or whatever.  How can they take this back?



Well, obviously they can't.  But they can lock down the account to disable future DDI access and PDF downloading, black-list the credit card associated with the purchase, and litigate for fraud and/or theft.

Since you'll be able to just download the PDF from a pirate site, the only reason you'd be stealing codes is if you wanted a real version for some reason.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Nope - they aren't.  Because they don't need to protect my security in the first place if they simply allow me to go to their site or RPGNow or any other e-tailer and buy a pdf for a few bucks.  No code needed, just my billing information.  I don't have to buy the hardcover.




Oh, I see.  You don't want to buy the hardcover.  That's not the deal they're offering.  You have to buy the hardcover to get access to the PDF.  The issue we're talking about is whether it's a good idea to have a nominal charge _on top of the price of the hardcover_ in order to unlock the associated PDF.  Nobody has suggested that PDFs will be available on their own without hardcover purchase.

Not saying that you can't request such a thing, but that's not what the rest of us are talking about.


----------



## CharlesRyan

3catcircus said:
			
		

> The problem *isn't* that people are looking for something to bitch about.  The problem is the well-established Hasbro corporate attitude that may end up having corporate guys require WotC low-level employees to lie to our faces about what they are going to do...




Horsesh- . . . I mean, a load of baloney.


----------



## 3catcircus

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Oh, I see.  You don't want to buy the hardcover.  That's not the deal they're offering.  You have to buy the hardcover to get access to the PDF.  The issue we're talking about is whether it's a good idea to have a nominal charge _on top of the price of the hardcover_ in order to unlock the associated PDF.  Nobody has suggested that PDFs will be available on their own without hardcover purchase.
> 
> Not saying that you can't request such a thing, but that's not what the rest of us are talking about.




Hmm - I guess that WotC feels that the amount of 3.5 pdf product they sold at full (or close to full) hardcover price somehow means that people want to pay those prices twice for the same product just because it is in a different format?  I know plenty of people who want only the hardcover or only the pdf.  If WotC isn't offering them options, they'll go elsewhere.

Just take a look on ENWorld's front page - War of the Burning Sky: $6.99 for a pdf, $13.99 for a softcover, or $49.99 for a subscription to all 12 pdfs (which is roughly $4 each).

If a small press outfit offers the ability to buy just a pdf, or just a paper book, then the desire for those options exists - the market share of those who will buy from WotC is much larger, which means that the ratio of people who want only a pdf or only a paper book is much larger.

One need only look at the fact that Radiohead went platinum by offering their latest album directly to the consumer at whatever price the consumer was willing to pay to know that the market knows what it wants and is willing to pay a fair-market price to get it.

I'd love to see the sales figures of the WotC 3.5 pdfs at full book price vs. the number of pdfs by other publishers that got sold at a lower price.  There are certain gems (MMS:WE and the From Stone to Steel products) that are worth paying $12 (MMS:WE) and $18 (FStS) for pdfs.  Most everything else is in the $3.99 to $6.99 price range and fairly priced.  Compare that to, for example, Complete Warrior, at $26.95 for the pdf and $29.95 for the hardcover.  No way is the hardcover only worth $3 more.  Now, if the pdf was $3, I'd gladly pay for the pdf in addition to the $29.95 hardcover.  I'd wager that the number of copies of MMS:WE sold as pdfs is probably 10x the number of Complete Warrior pdfs sold at $26.95.

Right now, I can go on RPGNow and buy a watermarked pdf of various products.  I give them my credit card information, click on the link, and a few minutes later, have a pdf on my hard drive.  I don't need to enter secret codes or otherwise prove that I've purchased the hardcover in order to be offered the "privilege" of buying a pdf.  I'm the customer, the privilege is on WotC's side - the privilege of me giving them my money.  If they don't want to make it easy for me to give them my money for a pdf, then I can take my business elsewhere.


Look - paying a nominal fee for the pdf after you've bought the hardcover is what the issue is that is being discussed - but why is it an issue at all?  Because they aren't offering the ability to buy the pdf by itself and they are making it onerous to buy the pdf after you've bought the book.  They need to take a hint from all of the 3rd party publishers who offer their customers the option of buying a paper product, or a pdf, or both, without buying one being a prerequisite to buying the other.  And it won't matter anyway, because as soon as the first person with too much time on their hands OCRs a hardcover and posts it on a p2p site, game over; WotC's paranoid special codes and secret handshakes to buy a pdf will be circumvented.  Better to treat your customers as customers instead of potential thieves.

Bottom line - regardless of the existence of the DDI, if WotC doesn't offer the option to only buy a pdf or only buy a paper book, at appropriate price points, then they deserve to go the way of the buggy whip makers and record labels...


----------



## 3catcircus

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Horsesh- . . . I mean, a load of baloney.




I'm a fairly high-level (as far as those things go) guy in a huge corporation.  Regardless of what I, or my management chain above me up through our company president, tells our customer, corporate executives (i.e. our company president's bosses) can turn around and order us to do something different.  The same applies for *any* publicly-traded company, Hasbro included.


----------



## Hussar

> Look - paying a nominal fee for the pdf after you've bought the hardcover is what the issue is that is being discussed - but why is it an issue at all? Because they aren't offering the ability to buy the pdf by itself and they are making it onerous to buy the pdf after you've bought the book. They need to take a hint from all of the 3rd party publishers who offer their customers the option of buying a paper product, or a pdf, or both, without buying one being a prerequisite to buying the other. And it won't matter anyway, because as soon as the first person with too much time on their hands OCRs a hardcover and posts it on a p2p site, game over; WotC's paranoid special codes and secret handshakes to buy a pdf will be circumvented. Better to treat your customers as customers instead of potential thieves.




How exactly is it onerous?

Go to site.  Punch in code.  Download pdf.


----------



## Scribble

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Hmm - I guess that WotC feels that the amount of 3.5 pdf product they sold at full (or close to full) hardcover price somehow means that people want to pay those prices twice for the same product just because it is in a different format?  I know plenty of people who want only the hardcover or only the pdf.  If WotC isn't offering them options, they'll go elsewhere.
> 
> Just take a look on ENWorld's front page - War of the Burning Sky: $6.99 for a pdf, $13.99 for a softcover, or $49.99 for a subscription to all 12 pdfs (which is roughly $4 each).
> 
> If a small press outfit offers the ability to buy just a pdf, or just a paper book, then the desire for those options exists - the market share of those who will buy from WotC is much larger, which means that the ratio of people who want only a pdf or only a paper book is much larger...
> 
> Bottom line - regardless of the existence of the DDI, if WotC doesn't offer the option to only buy a pdf or only buy a paper book, at appropriate price points, then they deserve to go the way of the buggy whip makers and record labels...




I think part of the issue is that WOTC has always been about supporting the Local Game store. I think this tactic is just another method of doing so. People want online resources, WOTC wants to offer them. WOTC also wants to sell hard covers because the hard covers support the game stores which in turn support them. Offering the PDF with the hardcover increases the desire to purchase the hardcover.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Ok - so if just a pdf costs $2, then any additional cost beyond that and the basic price of the book for what would be the "deluxe edition" of the book would have to include the costs of pressing the CD (pennies), and the costs of glueing a CD pouch into the back cover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how many people really care about that?  I'd wager that the majority of the people who want pdfs want them so they don't have to lug a ton of books to their game, not to play over the internet.




FYI putting CDs in books does not cost pennies. The cost of doing this is dollars.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

3catcircus said:
			
		

> The problem *isn't* that people are looking for something to bitch about.  The problem is the well-established Hasbro corporate attitude that may end up having corporate guys require WotC low-level employees to lie to our faces about what they are going to do...
> 
> I much prefer being told the truth rather than being strung along.  Unfortunately - I don't see that happening from Hasbro and WotC.




I get the sense you are going to believe what you want but let me point out a few things.

A) I am not lying. I have truthfully told you what I know and can tell you at this time.

B) Hasbro owns us but this is not some top down policy coming from Rhode Island.

C) Wotc has made this plan. Myself and a team of others are the ones driving this.

D) If people continue to direct this insulting "they are lying to us" garbage at people like me I for one will stop posting.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> I get the sense you are going to believe what you want but let me point out a few things.
> <snip>
> D) If people continue to direct this insulting "they are lying to us" garbage at people like me I for one will stop posting.




Sometimes, being a designer for a product with a big and vocal fan-base can be hard. Very Hard
But the first thing you said is why I you think you shouldn't put D) in effect.

Never ever give in to those that post with bile and hate. Put them on your mental or software-managed Ignore List. It is hard to believe if you see negative posts, but any WotC guy posting on these or other boards is seen as usually seen more as a gift as anything else. 

For fans, it will feel like punishment (even if you're actually only protecting your mental health  ), and some heaters might feel like they have "won" something.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Sometimes, being a designer for a product with a big and vocal fan-base can be hard. Very Hard
> But the first thing you said is why I you think you shouldn't put D) in effect.
> 
> Never ever give in to those that post with bile and hate. Put them on your mental or software-managed Ignore List.



Seriously.  Ignore function is there for a reason.  If they're going to insult you, they lose the right to be heard.


> For fans, it will feel like punishment (even if you're actually only protecting your mental health  ), and some heaters might feel like they have "won" something.



"See?  I told you.  That Rouse guy stopped talking to us.  I must have uncovered his dastardly plot to feed us lies and misinformation.  Good riddance!"

Ah, the logic of intarweb.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> D) If people continue to direct this insulting "they are lying to us" garbage at people like me I for one will stop posting.




Speaking of which, kudos on the podcasts.  I know that it might not be related, but there have been some recent bits & pieces coming from WotC that make me think that you _are_ listening to what sort of questions/concerns are being raised here, and are starting to provide some answers.

Please keep it up!  

As I said earlier, I doubt that, deep down, there is a gamer here who doesn't want every new product to be so worthwhile that they have to buy it.  And, even if we aren't "wow"ed by one product, we always hope to be "wow"ed by the next.

RC


----------



## 3catcircus

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> FYI putting CDs in books does not cost pennies. The cost of doing this is dollars.




I never said that putting CDs in books costs pennies.  I said that pressing CDs costs pennies - approximately 45 cents each for 1,000 replications with 4 color silk screen print on disc, glass master, and all film (http://cheapcdduplications.com/google_htmls/cd_bulk.html)


----------



## 3catcircus

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> I get the sense you are going to believe what you want but let me point out a few things.
> 
> A) I am not lying. I have truthfully told you what I know and can tell you at this time.
> 
> B) Hasbro owns us but this is not some top down policy coming from Rhode Island.
> 
> C) Wotc has made this plan. Myself and a team of others are the ones driving this.
> 
> D) If people continue to direct this insulting "they are lying to us" garbage at people like me I for one will stop posting.




You may think that it is garbage, but, unfortunately, perception is reality.  The perception I have (and apparently, so do others) is that there is no good reason for requiring someone to buy a hardcover in order to be able to buy a pdf of the same information.  It feels like gouging rather than a choice for consumers because of the requirement to buy a hardcover in order to enter a code to buy a pdf.

Is it really that important to require a book purchase prior to selling us a pdf that WotC is willing to lose sales to people who would never buy the book to begin with but would be willing to buy just a pdf?  

I've bought about half of the current 3.x books.  Of the books that I didn't buy, there may have been one or two gems of information that I was interested in but couldn't justify buying the entire book just to get one or two pages out of the entire book.  Sell me a relatively cheap pdf and I'd buy every 3.x book as a pdf.  Likewise, offer me the ability to buy just the pdf for 4th edition books and I'd buy every one of them.


----------



## 3catcircus

Hussar said:
			
		

> How exactly is it onerous?
> 
> Go to site.  Punch in code.  Download pdf.




The fact that you have to punch in a code at all is onerous to me because it feels like you don't want to charge me once for the same information - you want to charge me twice.  Even if it is only another $2, you are charging me *twice* for the same information.


----------



## Michael Morris

Poster to poster 3cat - dial back the rhetoric or go take a walk and cool down. There's no need to be rude. Making the employees of Wizards of the Coast feel uncomfortable or unwanted here is entirely antithetical to the rules and purpose of this board.


----------



## Nifft

3catcircus said:
			
		

> The fact that you have to punch in a code at all is onerous to me because it feels like you don't want to charge me once for the same information - you want to charge me twice.  Even if it is only another $2, you are charging me *twice* for the same information.



 Think of it like this:

You're not paying for the information. You have that already. You're just paying for a convenient format.

You could legally pay Fat Sal at the copy shop to scan in your new book and give you a PDF. However, Fat Sal probably eats chocolate while he handles your books. So giving your $1 to WotC over the web is not only is more convenient than going to Fat Sal's Copy Shop, but it saves your books from alien chocolate stains.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Scott_Rouse

> Originally Posted by 3catcircus
> The problem *isn't* that people are looking for something to bitch about. The problem is the well-established Hasbro corporate attitude that may end up having corporate guys require WotC low-level employees to lie to our faces about what they are going to do...
> I much prefer being told the truth rather than being strung along.
> 
> Unfortunately - I don't see that happening from Hasbro and WotC.







> You may think that it is garbage, but, unfortunately, perception is reality. The perception I have (and apparently, so do others) is that there is no good reason for requiring someone to buy a hardcover in order to be able to buy a pdf of the same information.




Baseless accusations of lying directed towards me is pretty lousy in my book.

Welcome to my ignore list, you are the first EN Worlder to earn that distinction.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!


----------



## Henry

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Poster to poster 3cat - dial back the rhetoric or go take a walk and cool down.



Let me second this pearl of wisdom. *Accusations of people lying to others are really beginning to get on my nerves, quite frankly.* Furthermore, they're heading right into the territory of "ascribing motives to other forum posters," which is the height of incivility.

If a person doesn't like a WotC policy, that's fine -- voice your opinion, we don't mind. But it can be done in a way that doesn't tick off other posters. Please everyone, think before you post.

Thanks.


----------



## Hussar

Scott - let me also chime in here to say that while some of us have the manners of a knuckle dragging troglodyte, there are others here who are really happy to have you drop in and let us know what you know.  

En World is a home to a number of pretty hardcore fans, and, well, sometimes fandom gets a bit in a mood.  

SO, to recap, and correct me if I have this wrong:

After you buy a book, which will come with a serial number of some sort, you access the WOTC site, give the number, pay your two bucks and get the pdf.  That access can also be used in conjuction with the DDI applications.

A few questions then, if it's not too early:

1.  Will the pdf be DRM'd or simply watermarked?

2.  How will the serial numbers be protected in the books?

3.  Will there be limitations on the number of times a serial number can be used to purchase the pdf?  Or, could a group buy one book as a group, then everyone use the same serial number to download the pdf, paying 2 bucks each time?  ((As a side thought, this would dovetail nicely with the resale of books - if there is no limit on the number of times a serial number can be used, you just have to pay 2 bucks each time, then resale or even people stealing serial numbers wouldn't be much of a problem))

Thanks.


----------



## hong

TBH, this reminds me just a little of EA and their fetish for micropurchases.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Hussar said:
			
		

> SO, to recap, and correct me if I have this wrong:
> 
> After you buy a book, which will come with a serial number of some sort, you access the WOTC site, give the number, pay your two bucks and get the pdf.  That access can also be used in conjuction with the DDI applications.
> 
> A few questions then, if it's not too early:
> 
> 1.  Will the pdf be DRM'd or simply watermarked?
> 
> 2.  How will the serial numbers be protected in the books?
> 
> 3.  Will there be limitations on the number of times a serial number can be used to purchase the pdf?  Or, could a group buy one book as a group, then everyone use the same serial number to download the pdf, paying 2 bucks each time?  ((As a side thought, this would dovetail nicely with the resale of books - if there is no limit on the number of times a serial number can be used, you just have to pay 2 bucks each time, then resale or even people stealing serial numbers wouldn't be much of a problem))
> 
> Thanks.




1) the PDF will have a watermark. DRM is a term thrown around a lot and it means different things to different people. In looking at file formats we have looked at some that have some DRM and others that don't. We seem to be leaning towards a .PDF file format usable with Adobe reader but we are still looking at multiple solutions so nothing is final. In general our philosophy is to trust the customer but we will likely have some level of built in "digital rights management" used in the broadest sense that people who own the document are the ones using it and there is some level of assurance that it wont be on bit torrent the next day. 

2) the codes in the books will be printed in ink on a back page of the book. No shrink wrap, no scratch off, not secret decoder ring. This was the least expensive method of inserting a code (to avoid further cost increases that inevitably get passed on to you the buyer) and that avoided issues at retail with the product like: "the code on this book has been scratched
off" or "can you unwrap it so I can see it?". Obviously this solution comes with a issue that any unscrupulous individual could got to his/her FLGS and copy down the code and go home and redeem it. This is where the activation fee comes in. We generally believe our customers to be honest and we felt a method that verified your identity would go a long way to deterring and would be thieves. Obviously this solution is not infallible but we have a very good fraud prevention team at WOTC for Magic Online and they will be able to deal with the issues that do arise. A person with a code problem will be able to talk with a customer service rep and largely we are going to trust the customer. If a code is in dispute with have the ability to verify ownership when we are handling it through CS.

3) We have settled on one code activation per book. That being said if you buy a book that has had the code activated you can call CS on a toll free number, email CS, or live chat with CS and they will make sure to straighten out the problem for you (as described under #2). 

In terms of e-book sharing. Although we would prefer every player owned their own books we know and understand a fair amount of sharing occurs. That being said, because we have not finalized the file format issue (and any potential DRM) I can't say if sharing will be allowed. The last solution we did look at would allow for a minimum amount of transfer between computers/users but nothing is final at this point.


----------



## Kesh

Thank you for being so up-front with us, Scott.

I have to say, the only part of this that concerns me is the "DRM" issue. I really dislike having files locked to a particular application, especially if there's an "activation limit" on the number of computers it can be used with. I've seen file formats die on the wayside, and I'd like to have a file that can last if I change operating systems or want to load it onto a future "e-book reader" portable machine. That's why I love watermarked PDFs, but am wary of PDF "manager" applications that keep them limited and proprietary to that app.

Further, DRM tends to be OS-specific. As a Mac OS and Linux user, I don't like being cornered into running a friend's Windows machine just to read a book I purchased. I've already given up on using the Digital Initiative virtual gaming extras because of this, but it'd be disappointing if the e-books we can unlock are similarly bound to one OS.


----------



## ZappoHisbane

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> 2) the codes in the books will be printed in ink on a back page of the book.
> ...
> 
> 3) We have settled on one code activation per book. That being said if you buy a book that has had the code activated you can call CS on a toll free number, email CS, or live chat with CS and they will make sure to straighten out the problem for you (as described under #2).




Hmm.  Well, I *really* like the idea of the online versions of the books, and I'm likely to be a subscriber and all that.  At the same point however, I'm wary of taking a gamble with my code, and the possibility of having to contact customer support for anything.  I'm sure the WotC support department is top notch, but I'm not a gambling man.  So the upshot of all this?  I'll be purchasing all my books via Amazon.ca.  Sorry, FLGS.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

ZappoHisbane said:
			
		

> Hmm.  Well, I *really* like the idea of the online versions of the books, and I'm likely to be a subscriber and all that.  At the same point however, I'm wary of taking a gamble with my code, and the possibility of having to contact customer support for anything.  I'm sure the WotC support department is top notch, but I'm not a gambling man.  So the upshot of all this?  I'll be purchasing all my books via Amazon.ca.  Sorry, FLGS.




If fraud becomes a pervasive problem we will likely be forced to implement a more tamper proof code insertion solution that will likely come at a higher cost (CDs, Scratch off, coded gift card, etc)


----------



## Irda Ranger

Scott, thank you for continuing to post. I appreciate having a real conversation with the people I do business with, and I'm sure many others here feel the same.  I just have a few comments.



			
				Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> 1) the PDF will have a watermark ... but we are still looking at multiple solutions ... we will likely have some level of built in "digital rights management" used in the broadest sense ...



I, for one, don't mind the idea of the watermark as long as it doesn't obscure my ability to read & print the text.  Personally, I think you should try having a watermark that actually looks cool, like having "Irda Ranger's Player's Handbook" printed page headers or "From the Library of Irda Ranger" in a cool seal on the inside cover.  It would be a "feature" for people who honestly want to collect your books, but also discourage posting them to the p2p networks.

I would however like to cast my vote against any form of "DRM" that doesn't allow reading the book on an open and supported format, disconnected from the internet.  I have several very strong reasons for this:

1. I boot Windows, Max OS X and Ubuntu on different machines.  I am posting this post here from my Ubuntu desktop, but usually DM at the table from my MacBook.  I also have PDF's on my blackberry.  Proprietary solutions never have this kind of wide support, and I fear that if WotC ever goes bankrupt, or decides to stop supporting their format, that I won't be able to read my book anymore.  It will be revealed that my "purchase" was really a "rental", and every investment I have made in reliance thereof (both in time, money and emotional energy) will have been for naught.  A corporate decision-maker could "zero out" my account with D&D with the flick of his pen.  

Just so we're clear, I will NEVER allow myself to be in that position.  Which means that if you go with a DRM solution, I simply will never participate in your market.

2.  I don't think it's really possible to keep your books off of Limewire, no matter what you do.  So any kind of DRM you impose will simply be a cost to your 10,000,000 legit customers worldwide, and no more than a speedbump to the 10 pirates out there.  That may be hard to accept, as an author, but I think WotC (and this goes for ALL media companies) just needs to come to terms with this and admit that they're only selling two things: the paper version of the book, and the online experience at DDI.

This is the same reason Madonna has signed with a concert promoter, not a record label.  The record labels are not adapting to the new market, where the valuable product is the "experience" and the "extras" that come with the CD.  The CD itself is worthless, despite all the hard work that went into making it.

But even if you don't agree with me, I'm sure this point has been argued at the office.  I'm really just adding my vote to "come play by the new rules." 



			
				Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> 3) We have settled on one code activation per book. That being said if you buy a book that has had the code activated you can call CS on a toll free number, email CS, or live chat with CS and they will make sure to straighten out the problem for you (as described under #2).



Hmmm.  

I see two problems with this right off.

1.  The re-sale market.  I know that's not really your concern, but it does lower the value of the initial purchase to the purchaser, which might lower sales.  When I'm on Amazon I often think to myself "Well, this costs $17, but if I don't like it I can sell it on E*bay for $10, so I'm only really risking $7 here." and I buy it.  If I can't resell, I'm risking the full $17.  At the margin, this will effect sales.

2.  I'm married.  A lot of players are.  As you know, your customers aren't all highschool geeks in their Mom's basement.   Not anymore, anyway.  But seriously, my wife and I share all of our books.  Insisting that we buy a book for each of us doubles the cost of this hobby for us, which will cut into our purchases _a lot_.  Your customers who play with their kids are in even a worse situation.

A model you might want to look at would be Apple's OS upgrade discs, which are 100% cost for one copy, or 140% for a "family pack" good for up to five computers in the same household.




			
				Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> I can't say if sharing will be allowed.



Hmm. I'm not sure how much using the word "sharing" even makes sense in a digital context, but I only have two points on this:
1. DM's should be able to have a table rule that doesn't require everyone in the group having bought the book.  Restricting rule use to the lowest common denominator will kill book sales, since it lowers the incentive of the DM to get a new book.  
2. Don't do other stuff that pisses off your customers. 

I think those of both common sense things that you already know though, so just try to keep them in mind and things should work out. 

Be well, Scott. Thanks for posting.


----------



## Irda Ranger

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> If fraud becomes a pervasive problem we will likely be forced to implement a more tamper proof code insertion solution that will likely come at a higher cost (CDs, Scratch off, coded gift card, etc)



I think it would be easier to have a 2-part ID at little extra cost. Ask for the unique code *and* the third word of the fourth paragraph on page 167 (choose the word randomly each time).  That way anyone who doesn't have the book in front of them ...


----------



## SteveC

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> If fraud becomes a pervasive problem we will likely be forced to implement a more tamper proof code insertion solution that will likely come at a higher cost (CDs, Scratch off, coded gift card, etc)



I just wanted to chime in for a minute and highly suggest against this sort of thing. I have said it before, and I think it bears repeating, that 4th Edition books will be available via a number of clandestine networks within 72 hours of launch. That was my Stone Cold Lead Pipe Lock of the Week tip for my subscribers. I don't support it in any way, but that's going to happen.

Just making it a simple method of using the codes, buying the book and not worrying about activation or transfer between people who might have resold the book or whatever else occurs is the best way for WotC to go in this case. Keeping it simple, and not punishing the people who want to support your product is the best solution to these kinds of situations, because there is no way for you to stop piracy. Frankly, there is no way for you to even slow it down, because pirates have channels to get things and won't be your customers using your own service to hurt you.

If Wizards uses a DRM solution, or if I would need to jump through hoops to download a product, I'm not going to buy it. And I'm not alone on this matter. If it's a simple, straightforward PDF I can download, then I will buy it, and encourage others to do so. It's just that simple.

--Steve


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> Scott, thank you for continuing to post. I appreciate having a real conversation with the people I do business with, and I'm sure many others here feel the same.  I just have a few comments.
> 
> 
> I, for one, don't mind the idea of the watermark as long as it doesn't obscure my ability to read & print the text.  Personally, I think you should try having a watermark that actually looks cool, like having "Irda Ranger's Player's Handbook" printed page headers or "From the Library of Irda Ranger" in a cool seal on the inside cover.  It would be a "feature" for people who honestly want to collect your books, but also discourage posting them to the p2p networks.
> 
> I would however like to cast my vote against any form of "DRM" that doesn't allow reading the book on an open and supported format, disconnected from the internet.  I have several very strong reasons for this:
> 
> 1. I boot Windows, Max OS X and Ubuntu on different machines.  I am posting this post here from my Ubuntu desktop, but usually DM at the table from my MacBook.  I also have PDF's on my blackberry.  Proprietary solutions never have this kind of wide support, and I fear that if WotC ever goes bankrupt, or decides to stop supporting their format, that I won't be able to read my book anymore.  It will be revealed that my "purchase" was really a "rental", and every investment I have made in reliance thereof (both in time, money and emotional energy) will have been for naught.  A corporate decision-maker could "zero out" my account with D&D with the flick of his pen.
> 
> Just so we're clear, I will NEVER allow myself to be in that position.  Which means that if you go with a DRM solution, I simply will never participate in your market.
> 
> 2.  I don't think it's really possible to keep your books off of Limewire, no matter what you do.  So any kind of DRM you impose will simply be a cost to your 10,000,000 legit customers worldwide, and no more than a speedbump to the 10 pirates out there.  That may be hard to accept, as an author, but I think WotC (and this goes for ALL media companies) just needs to come to terms with this and admit that they're only selling two things: the paper version of the book, and the online experience at DDI.
> 
> This is the same reason Madonna has signed with a concert promoter, not a record label.  The record labels are not adapting to the new market, where the valuable product is the "experience" and the "extras" that come with the CD.  The CD itself is worthless, despite all the hard work that went into making it.
> 
> But even if you don't agree with me, I'm sure this point has been argued at the office.  I'm really just adding my vote to "come play by the new rules."
> 
> 
> Hmmm.
> 
> I see two problems with this right off.
> 
> 1.  The re-sale market.  I know that's not really your concern, but it does lower the value of the initial purchase to the purchaser, which might lower sales.  When I'm on Amazon I often think to myself "Well, this costs $17, but if I don't like it I can sell it on E*bay for $10, so I'm only really risking $7 here." and I buy it.  If I can't resell, I'm risking the full $17.  At the margin, this will effect sales.
> 
> 2.  I'm married.  A lot of players are.  As you know, your customers aren't all highschool geeks in their Mom's basement.   Not anymore, anyway.  But seriously, my wife and I share all of our books.  Insisting that we buy a book for each of us doubles the cost of this hobby for us, which will cut into our purchases _a lot_.  Your customers who play with their kids are in even a worse situation.
> 
> A model you might want to look at would be Apple's OS upgrade discs, which are 100% cost for one copy, or 140% for a "family pack" good for up to five computers in the same household.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. I'm not sure how much using the word "sharing" even makes sense in a digital context, but I only have two points on this:
> 1. DM's should be able to have a table rule that doesn't require everyone in the group having bought the book.  Restricting rule use to the lowest common denominator will kill book sales, since it lowers the incentive of the DM to get a new book.
> 2. Don't do other stuff that pisses off your customers.
> 
> I think those of both common sense things that you already know though, so just try to keep them in mind and things should work out.
> 
> Be well, Scott. Thanks for posting.





Our thinking is very alike on the subjects you mention above. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> I think it would be easier to have a 2-part ID at little extra cost. Ask for the unique code *and* the third word of the fourth paragraph on page 167 (choose the word randomly each time).  That way anyone who doesn't have the book in front of them ...




We have considered this but this it is obviously a hackable system as well. It all goes back to to trusting your customers


----------



## Scott_Rouse

SteveC said:
			
		

> I just wanted to chime in for a minute and highly suggest against this sort of thing. I have said it before, and I think it bears repeating, that 4th Edition books will be available via a number of clandestine networks within 72 hours of launch. That was my Stone Cold Lead Pipe Lock of the Week tip for my subscribers. I don't support it in any way, but that's going to happen.
> 
> Just making it a simple method of using the codes, buying the book and not worrying about activation or transfer between people who might have resold the book or whatever else occurs is the best way for WotC to go in this case. Keeping it simple, and not punishing the people who want to support your product is the best solution to these kinds of situations, because there is no way for you to stop piracy. Frankly, there is no way for you to even slow it down, because pirates have channels to get things and won't be your customers using your own service to hurt you.
> 
> If Wizards uses a DRM solution, or if I would need to jump through hoops to download a product, I'm not going to buy it. And I'm not alone on this matter. If it's a simple, straightforward PDF I can download, then I will buy it, and encourage others to do so. It's just that simple.
> 
> --Steve




Yes this is all correct. It all goes back to believing that 99.99% of our customers are honest and that they would rather pay for a legit product than steal one. That being said if fraud becomes pandemic then the system fails and the honest customers lose.


----------



## Kraydak

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> ...If a code is in dispute with have the ability to verify ownership when we are handling it through CS.
> 
> 3) We have settled on one code activation per book. That being said if you buy a book that has had the code activated you can call CS on a toll free number, email CS, or live chat with CS and they will make sure to straighten out the problem for you (as described under #2).
> 
> ....




I find these remarks, well, remarkably unreassuring.  Going beyond the fact that many people do *not* hang onto their receipts, how would CS handle the following:

1) Person A buys the book.  He uses the code.  He sells to book to person B, either telling the truth or lieing about the code activation.  Person B tries to use the code.  No one has (any more) any receipts.  Both people have digital images of the code (note that if CS is relying on digital images, they are assuming everyone has a digital camera...).  I cannot see anyway for CS to be able to tell who is telling the truth.

2) Person A buys a used book w/o code.  He decides, later, that he wants the DI portion.  He takes a picture of a code of a book in his FLGS and uses it.  Person B buys that book, say cash.  *Assuming* that person B finds out that the code has been used before he trashes his receipt, does the receipt from *every* FLGS provide enough information to uniquely ID a specific copy of a PHB4?  If not (and assuming person B still has the receipt, not a safe assumption, and even not safer yet if the book is a gift for person B bought by person C), how does CS resolve the matter?  Both person A and B have a copy of the book and digital images of the code...

3) People A and B decide to buy a copy of the PHB4.  Person A dislikes reading from a computer screen and isn't interested in DI, while person B is cash strapped.  Person A goes in it for 75% of the cost and gets the book.  Person B goes in it for 25% and gets the code.  2 months later, person A changes his mind about the whole DI thing...


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> 1) the PDF will have a watermark. DRM is a term thrown around a lot and it means different things to different people. In looking at file formats we have looked at some that have some DRM and others that don't. We seem to be leaning towards a .PDF file format usable with Adobe reader but we are still looking at multiple solutions so nothing is final. In general our philosophy is to trust the customer but we will likely have some level of built in "digital rights management" used in the broadest sense that people who own the document are the ones using it and there is some level of assurance that it wont be on bit torrent the next day.



It will be on BitTorrent the next day.  There's no reason to even worry about certainties like that.  However, having a watermark or something else that identifies the owner will stop Joe Gamer from just idly sticking it into his file sharing directory. 



> 2) the codes in the books will be printed in ink on a back page of the book. No shrink wrap, no scratch off, not secret decoder ring. This was the least expensive method of inserting a code (to avoid further cost increases that inevitably get passed on to you the buyer) and that avoided issues at retail with the product like: "the code on this book has been scratched off" or "can you unwrap it so I can see it?". Obviously this solution comes with a issue that any unscrupulous individual could got to his/her FLGS and copy down the code and go home and redeem it. This is where the activation fee comes in. We generally believe our customers to be honest and we felt a method that verified your identity would go a long way to deterring and would be thieves. Obviously this solution is not infallible but we have a very good fraud prevention team at WOTC for Magic Online and they will be able to deal with the issues that do arise. A person with a code problem will be able to talk with a customer service rep and largely we are going to trust the customer. If a code is in dispute with have the ability to verify ownership when we are handling it through CS.



That's pretty much what I thought.  If you can send in a photocopy of the page with the code, or email a digital camera photo of the page, that's pretty good proof you have the book.  Proof enough, at any rate.  Then there's fraud investigation on the other end.



> In terms of e-book sharing. Although we would prefer every player owned their own books we know and understand a fair amount of sharing occurs. That being said, because we have not finalized the file format issue (and any potential DRM) I can't say if sharing will be allowed. The last solution we did look at would allow for a minimum amount of transfer between computers/users but nothing is final at this point.



Given that DRM causes general unhappiness among the user base, has the problem that it can eventually fail to work, doesn't work with alternative PDF viewers, doesn't always migrate well, and utterly fails to prevent piracy, I don't see why you're even considering it.  DriveThruRPG started on a DRM-PDF delivery system and abandoned it because it inconvenienced their customers and their PDFs were showing up on p2p somehow mysteriously DRM-free.  It cost them money to implement, but wasn't slowing down piracy.  It was just turning their product into crippleware.

Watermarking works just fine to prevent casual piracy, and nothing will prevent non-casual piracy.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Kraydak said:
			
		

> I find these remarks, well, remarkably unreassuring.  Going beyond the fact that many people do *not* hang onto their receipts, how would CS handle the following:
> 
> 1) Person A buys the book.  He uses the code.  He sells to book to person B, either telling the truth or lieing about the code activation.  Person B tries to use the code.  No one has (any more) any receipts.  Both people have digital images of the code (note that if CS is relying on digital images, they are assuming everyone has a digital camera...).  I cannot see anyway for CS to be able to tell who is telling the truth.
> 
> 2) Person A buys a used book w/o code.  He decides, later, that he wants the DI portion.  He takes a picture of a code of a book in his FLGS and uses it.  Person B buys that book, say cash.  *Assuming* that person B finds out that the code has been used before he trashes his receipt, does the receipt from *every* FLGS provide enough information to uniquely ID a specific copy of a PHB4?  If not (and assuming person B still has the receipt, not a safe assumption, and even not safer yet if the book is a gift for person B bought by person C), how does CS resolve the matter?  Both person A and B have a copy of the book and digital images of the code...
> 
> 3) People A and B decide to buy a copy of the PHB4.  Person A dislikes reading from a computer screen and isn't interested in DI, while person B is cash strapped.  Person A goes in it for 75% of the cost and gets the book.  Person B goes in it for 25% and gets the code.  2 months later, person A changes his mind about the whole DI thing...




First how many people really do any of these things?

Second look into the customer history of the code activation in the system. 

Third, give the customers the benefit of the doubt and activate their code.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> First how many people really do any of these things?
> 
> Second look into the customer history of the code activation in the system.
> 
> Third, give the customers the benefit of the doubt and activate their code.



For the record, I really appreciate your attitude toward "benefit of the doubt."


----------



## Nifft

Dunno if it's too late to come in with an obvious technical implementation, but here goes: Have a two part digital code. One part is "public", and is the book's identification number. The second part is private, and is the book's electronic activation key.

It should be easy to set up the system such that people can use the ID for verification (of "electronic virginity") before they buy it second-hand. It's not a guarantee, but it's better than nothing.

But more importantly, it allows you to do whatever you want to obfuscate the electronic activation key later (if conditions require) without changing the ID system.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Kraydak

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> First how many people really do any of these things?




As a subset of total customers?  Few.  As a subset of total customers that *have problems related to illegitimate code usage*?  Probably many.  If you are going to assume that people are going to behave, you don't need to worry about anything and don't need specific codes... if you have specific codes, you need to worry.



> Second look into the customer history of the code activation in the system.




I am failing to see how you have enough information on *your* end to interpret the information on the customers' end.  The customer probably *can't* prove ownership.  This brings us to:



> Third, give the customers the benefit of the doubt and activate their code.




If so, why bother?  As you don't have enough information to tell which complainer/code user is in the right, I fail to understand the point of the whole shebang.


----------



## 3catcircus

Kraydak said:
			
		

> As a subset of total customers?  Few.  As a subset of total customers that *have problems related to illegitimate code usage*?  Probably many.  If you are going to assume that people are going to behave, you don't need to worry about anything and don't need specific codes... if you have specific codes, you need to worry.
> 
> 
> 
> I am failing to see how you have enough information on *your* end to interpret the information on the customers' end.  The customer probably *can't* prove ownership.  This brings us to:
> 
> 
> 
> If so, why bother?  As you don't have enough information to tell which complainer/code user is in the right, I fail to understand the point of the whole shebang.




(sigh...)  Maybe I wasn't saying it as articulately as you are, or that I came across as rude and obnoxious in my posts, but...  Exactly!  It has consistently (to me, at least) sounded as if they are trying to stop the inevitable fact that pdfs will be on p2p networks soon after (if not before) the hardcover is released, rather than try and maximize the number of people who would legitimately buy a pdf from them.

The other thing that I don't think has been addressed is the "buy-and-return" scenario.  Person A shells out cash for the hardcover and races home to buy the pdf.  He then realizes that the book isn't really of interest to him and then turns around and returns the book and gets his money back (even if they only offer store credit, that can be applied to the next book Person A wants to buy, so, for the purposes of this discussion it is the same as cash).  Person B buys the hardcover because he wants the book and then decides to buy a pdf, only to find out that someone else has already legitimately bought the book and pdf.  Do they really expect Person A to delete the pdf?


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Kraydak said:
			
		

> As a subset of total customers?  Few.  As a subset of total customers that *have problems related to illegitimate code usage*?  Probably many.  If you are going to assume that people are going to behave, you don't need to worry about anything and don't need specific codes... if you have specific codes, you need to worry.




The system we have will be able to address the few issues without penalizing the many. 




> I am failing to see how you have enough information on *your* end to interpret the information on the customers' end.  The customer probably *can't* prove ownership.  This brings us to:




Because the user will have to enter name, address, verifiable email, and a payment method into the e-commerce/account system  to activate the book we will have very good records of tracking each code. We have been doing this with Magic online for years



> If so, why bother?  As you don't have enough information to tell which complainer/code user is in the right, I fail to understand the point of the whole shebang.




It is about creating a balance between a user friendly system and putting a few safeguards in place.

I don't see why people think is is so onerous. Yes the system is not perfect but to me it seems to be a good balance between keeping costs low while not just giving a open door to anyone who want to come in and pirate. Piracy does and will continue to happen but we could be way more uptight about this. 

Show me an example of any other major book publishers that is making this big of a leap of faith with their customers by providing e-books with every physical book they sell.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> D) If people continue to direct this insulting "they are lying to us" garbage at people like me I for one will stop posting.




As I said elsewhere, if you want to interact with the gaming public, you really need to spend more time answering the questions of the many, many posters - I assume the great majority of them, but that's just my own perception of it - who are polite and friendly and stop tussling with the more obstreperous ones. My sig says it all.

Now go tell Mearls and the rest to put Goliaths in the PHB and Frost Giants in the MM. And, man, would I like it if backwards compatibility with 3.x became a priority so I could use all those beautiful statblocks I've collected over the years.


----------



## fusangite

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Is it really that important to require a book purchase prior to selling us a pdf that WotC is willing to lose sales to people who would never buy the book to begin with but would be willing to buy just a pdf?



Go picket Random House, Penguin, Norton and Knopff while you're at it.


----------



## 3catcircus

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> The system we have will be able to address the few issues without penalizing the many.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because the user will have to enter name, address, verifiable email, and a payment method into the e-commerce/account system  to activate the book we will have very good records of tracking each code. We have been doing this with Magic online for years
> 
> 
> 
> It is about creating a balance between a user friendly system and putting a few safeguards in place.
> 
> I don't see why people think is is so onerous. Yes the system is not perfect but to me it seems to be a good balance between keeping costs low while not just giving a open door to anyone who want to come in and pirate. Piracy does and will continue to happen but we could be way more uptight about this.
> 
> Show me an example of any other major book publishers that is making this big of a leap of faith with their customers by providing e-books with every physical book they sell.




I know you've ignored me, but this is for the benefit of anyone else who might be interested.  

No one is asking for a free pdf/e-book with the book purchase.  What *I* am asking for is to be given the option of buying either or both - if I don't want a hardcover I shouldn't be forced to buy one just to buy the pdf.


----------



## 3catcircus

fusangite said:
			
		

> Go picket Random House, Penguin, Norton and Knopff while you're at it.




What is your point?

Unlike what WotC has so far indicated, none of the publishers you listed above seem to require me to purchase the hardcover if I just want the ebook.


----------



## Michael Morris

3catcircus said:
			
		

> What is your point?
> 
> Unlike what WotC has so far indicated, none of the publishers you listed above seem to require me to purchase the hardcover if I just want the ebook.



 Fusangite's point is that the large print houses and distributors refuse to allow a publisher to distribute PDF's at any price point below the printed version. WotC isn't the only publisher who's hit a roadblock with this policy - White Wolf is affected as well.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Fusangite's point is that the large print houses and distributors refuse to allow a publisher to distribute PDF's at any price point below the printed version. WotC isn't the only publisher who's hit a roadblock with this policy - White Wolf is affected as well.




I am quite sure this has been said before in other posts/threads. If you just want to buy the PDF that will be available for full MSRP. I am not sure how many will take advantage of this as the book/e-book is such a better value.


----------



## Kraydak

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Because the user will have to enter name, address, verifiable email, and a payment method into the e-commerce/account system  to activate the book we will have very good records of tracking each code. We have been doing this with Magic online for years




I guess I'll try a last time.  Of _course_ you can track the activation of the code.  However, in instances of illegitimate code use, being able to do so is _meaningless_ if you can't also track legitimate ownership of the book.  Which raises the question of why are you bothering.



> ....
> 
> Show me an example of any other major book publishers that is making this big of a leap of faith with their customers by providing e-books with every physical book they sell.




Baen books offers CDs with back libraries in some of their hardcovers.  (and a free online library too!  if anyone here hasn't tried it, do so!)


----------



## Michael Morris

Kraydak said:
			
		

> I guess I'll try a last time.  Of _course_ you can track the activation of the code.  However, in instances of illegitimate code use, being able to do so is _meaningless_ if you can't also track legitimate ownership of the book.  Which raises the question of why are you bothering.




My guess is to appease the aforementioned distributors and print houses. Wizards has a spider's web worth of contracts and obligations with it's IP many if not most of which I would venture that Scott isn't at liberty to discuss. For example, if the online tools become too robust Atari may be offended since they paid for the video game rights to D&D. The print distributors don't want PDF's to be available for less than the printed copy because they feel threatened by that (there mindset towards the digital age is not unlike the RIAA in many ways.




> Baen books offers CDs with back libraries in some of their hardcovers.  (and a free online library too!  if anyone here hasn't tried it, do so!)




Good for them, and I guarantee that until they discontinue that practice they will *never* be able to secure a contract with a printer and distributor able to put their books out onto the market on a volumne anywhere approaching what the print runs for D&D are and will continue to be.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Kraydak said:
			
		

> I guess I'll try a last time.  Of _course_ you can track the activation of the code.  However, in instances of illegitimate code use, being able to do so is _meaningless_ if you can't also track legitimate ownership of the book.  Which raises the question of why are you bothering.




So what would you propose we do? Have any ideas on a solution?




> Baen books offers CDs with back libraries in some of their hardcovers.  (and a free online library too!  if anyone here hasn't tried it, do so!)




Interesting. I will look a what they are doing.


----------



## Kraydak

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> So what would you propose we do? Have any ideas on a solution?




10ish$/month subscription fee.  Access to entire your library (and rest of DI content).  Works out to about a book/3months (+bonus material).  No worries over ownership, no bad publicity of burnt customers whining to the rest of their group.  Most people vastly prefer physical books, and will buy copies of the ones they want.  Those who wouldn't, could get pirated copies anyways.  You get the additional advantage of lots of people sampling books they wouldn't otherwise have purchased.

But above all, easy.  Really, really easy.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Interesting. I will look a what they are doing.




Yeah, Baen books has really done some amazing stuff with those CDs. Plus, the content of those CDs can be freely distributed, or at least the ones I have contain such a notice. The only thing you can't do is sell them. The number - and quality - of the books they've made available is hard to beat.


----------



## I'm A Banana

> 10ish$/month subscription fee. Access to entire your library (and rest of DI content).




Do you mean "included with the price of your D&D Insider account" so that the online library of every WotC D&D book ever released is there, for virtually free, to anyone with a computer?

Or do you mean "for an extra $10/month," doubling the cost of a D&D Insider account, and cutting into everyone's "game expsense account"?

You could maybe get away with an "online library" that costs a monthly fee to access, that just carries the books. But realistically, they'd have to price this at about the same price as buying the books each moth would be -- about $40/month. And that's pricing people right out of the books, which are their core business.

WotC's business model isn't based on an expensive subscription for online content (yet). It's based on selling books out of bookstores. I don't think it's really that surprising that they're not offering every book for cheaper online than they are offering in the store.

Though perhaps it is backwards. Perhaps in 5-10 years, WotC will be selling library access at a $20/month fee, and charging $10 for a print-on-demand service? But that's kind of an extreme overhaul of how their business model works....


----------



## Hussar

Just a note about the Baen books.  Something to not forget here is most of the books they are offering are NOT new.  Occasionally they are, but, the vast majority are from the 90's.  There is a significant difference.

Thanks Scott for your answers.  And Morrus as well.  I was unaware that distributors would not allow sales for less than book price.  That explains a huge amount as to why WOTC pdf's are so expensive.  

Why is this the first I've heard of this?  I've seen people bitching about the price of WOTC pdf's for ages, yet this is the first time I've seen this explaination.  Sigh.  I need to read more.


----------



## Scott_Rouse

Kraydak said:
			
		

> 10ish$/month subscription fee.  Access to entire your library (and rest of DI content).  Works out to about a book/3months (+bonus material).  No worries over ownership, no bad publicity of burnt customers whining to the rest of their group.  Most people vastly prefer physical books, and will buy copies of the ones they want.  Those who wouldn't, could get pirated copies anyways.  You get the additional advantage of lots of people sampling books they wouldn't otherwise have purchased.
> 
> But above all, easy.  Really, really easy.




Not so easy if you are trying to run a business who's primary function is to sells books that have an average MSRP of $25. 

Using your plan let's say hypothetically that WOTC sells 1 physical book a month with an MSRP of $30. That is $360 a year in annual releases that you hope consumers will buy. The plan you propose offers consumers those same books electronically at 1/3 their cost (plus added game play tools and two magazines) for $120 a year.  Not a good business model if you ask me.


----------



## Nifft

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Interesting. I will look a what they are doing.



 Baen previously offered "random packs" of e-books for a monthly price. (I put "random packs" in quotes because they weren't random, I just only knew about 1/4 of the authors, so it felt random.) You'd buy a digital set of 4 books at a time for a fairly low price. The books were mostly new, and the format was not encumbered -- HTML and PDFs.

You should definitely see what their experience was.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Nifft

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Not so easy if you are trying to run a business who's primary function is to sells books that have an average MSRP of $25.
> 
> Using your plan let's say hypothetically that WOTC sells 1 physical book a month with an MSRP of $30. That is $360 a year in annual releases that you hope consumers will buy. The plan you propose offers consumers those same books electronically at 1/3 their cost (plus added game play tools and two magazines) for $120 a year.  Not a good business model if you ask me.



 Why is MSRP relevant to WotC's profit margins?

If you make $9 distributing something electronically (consumer pays $10) or $9 distributing something in print (consumer pays $25), what's the difference to you? Sure, the truck driver, FLGS owner, amazon.com stockholder, printing guy and papermill may be upset, but that's not really your problem, is it?

(Note that I'm not taking up either side in particular. Just pointing out that retail price isn't necessarily related to what WotC gets to keep.)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## hong

Nifft said:
			
		

> Why is MSRP relevant to WotC's profit margins?
> 
> If you make $9 distributing something electronically (consumer pays $10) or $9 distributing something in print (consumer pays $25), what's the difference to you? Sure, the truck driver, FLGS owner, amazon.com stockholder, printing guy and papermill may be upset, but that's not really your problem, is it?




Yes it is. Business partners are also stakeholders.


----------



## Michael Morris

Nifft said:
			
		

> Why is MSRP relevant to WotC's profit margins?
> 
> If you make $9 distributing something electronically (consumer pays $10) or $9 distributing something in print (consumer pays $25), what's the difference to you? Sure, the truck driver, FLGS owner, amazon.com stockholder, printing guy and papermill may be upset, but that's not really your problem, is it?




It is when they refuse to stock the product.


----------



## Kraydak

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Not so easy if you are trying to run a business who's primary function is to sells books that have an average MSRP of $25.
> 
> Using your plan let's say hypothetically that WOTC sells 1 physical book a month with an MSRP of $30. That is $360 a year in annual releases that you hope consumers will buy. The plan you propose offers consumers those same books electronically at 1/3 their cost (plus added game play tools and two magazines) for $120 a year.  Not a good business model if you ask me.




WotC might *offer* 1 physical book a month with a MSRP of $30.  WotC certainly doesn't *sell* 1 physical book/month/customer.  I don't know how much of the $30 WotC recieves, but cutting out the middlemen will drop the equality down to 1book/1 or 2 months, I imagine.  Add in the physical books bought in addition to the library access (most people dramatically prefer reading a book than a computer screen) and and additional DI access purchased by people pulled in by the library and I'm guessing you see a better business model to begin with.  Add in the advantage of an easier business model which is (regardless of how jusitifed you it to be) less grating on the cusomers and I see it as a win-win.


----------



## Kraydak

Nifft said:
			
		

> Baen previously offered "random packs" of e-books for a monthly price. (I put "random packs" in quotes because they weren't random, I just only knew about 1/4 of the authors, so it felt random.) You'd buy a digital set of 4 books at a time for a fairly low price. The books were mostly new, and the format was not encumbered -- HTML and PDFs.
> 
> You should definitely see what their experience was.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Baen has a free library (oldish books).
Baen also has "websriptions" where they bundle that months set of books (and sometimes earlier books to round out the set to a minimum of 4, might be minimum of 5 now) and pre-publish them in thirds ($15/month these days).  With the dribbling... its diabolical.  Looking it up, individual books are $4-6 (still well less than a paperback) and unless Eric Flint got chased out, there won't be any DRM loading the files down.

As WotC has a much more erratic publishing schedule, I think they'd be better served with an online journal format (you can also talk to scientific publishers....   ) where you can buy individual books (dead tree/PDF) and/or rent access to the entire library.


----------



## Nifft

Kraydak said:
			
		

> Baen also has "websriptions" where they bundle that months set of books (and sometimes earlier books to round out the set to a minimum of 4, might be minimum of 5 now)



 Right. Thanks! That's the one I mean.

I recall back when they started you could pick your months and get a 4-5 book bundle for the price of one book.

Anyway, yeah. They've been doing electronic distribution of unencumbered content for quite a while (4 laptops ago in Nifft's time units). I suspect they'll have very interesting numbers for piracy which -- if they share them -- could be useful for deciding what kind of protection WotC might need.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## diaglo

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Welcome to my ignore list, you are the first EN Worlder to earn that distinction.


----------



## I'm A Banana

I think it's important to emphasize that, as long as the "online library" is fairly cheap, it shouldn't cannibalize book sales too much. Actually reading books is almost always preferable to reading something on a computer screen, and the nature of D&D as a game means that looking things up at the table (away from computers) will always be worth the price of purchase. Rather, the online library serves as something like free advertising.  People who have cheap-as-free e-versions of a product (such as mp3's of a CD) are usually more likely to spend money on a "solid" version (such as the actual CD). I can only see this being MORE true about books.

Though I think that WotC deserves layers of kudos for even offering free & easy online access to the books you buy. The company is definitely ahead of the e-curve with respect to most publishers (though it seems Baen might be ahead of them!).


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Hussar said:
			
		

> Just a note about the Baen books.  Something to not forget here is most of the books they are offering are NOT new.  Occasionally they are, but, the vast majority are from the 90's.  There is a significant difference.




True, but the CDs that are bound in the books contain the book they are bound in.


----------



## Imperialus

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Interesting. I will look a what they are doing.




Here is a portion of an essay by Eric Flint discussing the library.
The full essay can be read here

One other point that hasn't been brought up though is that the cost for a paperback version of most the books available from the library is under 10 dollars.  The average cost for a D&D book is over 30.  The files themselves are also manuscript style HTML files.  No formatting or anything like that apart from chapter headers.  That's fine for a novel.  It would be a bit more of a pain for a D&D book.  I don't think it's really possible for WoTC to adopt a similar strategy.



> Baen Books is now making available — for free — a number of its titles in electronic format. We're calling it the Baen Free Library. Anyone who wishes can read these titles online — no conditions, no strings attached. (Later we may ask for  an extremely simple, name & email only, registration. ) Or, if you prefer, you can download the books in one of several formats. Again, with no conditions or strings attached. (URLs to sites which offer the readers for these format are also listed. )
> 
> Why are we doing this? Well, for two reasons.
> 
> The first is what you might call a "matter of principle." This all started as a byproduct of an online "virtual brawl" I got into with a number of people, some of them professional SF authors, over the issue of online piracy of copyrighted works and what to do about it.
> 
> There was a school of thought, which seemed to be picking up steam, that the way to handle the problem was with handcuffs and brass knucks. Enforcement! Regulation! New regulations! Tighter regulations! All out for the campaign against piracy! No quarter! Build more prisons! Harsher sentences!
> 
> Alles in ordnung!
> 
> I, ah, disagreed. Rather vociferously and belligerently, in fact. And I can be a vociferous and belligerent fellow. My own opinion, summarized briefly, is as follows:
> 
> 1. Online piracy — while it is definitely illegal and immoral — is, as a practical problem, nothing more than (at most) a nuisance. We're talking brats stealing chewing gum, here, not the Barbary Pirates.
> 
> 2. Losses any author suffers from piracy are almost certainly offset by the additional publicity which, in practice, any kind of free copies of a book usually engender. Whatever the moral difference, which certainly exists, the practical effect of online piracy is no different from that of any existing method by which readers may obtain books for free or at reduced cost: public libraries, friends borrowing and loaning each other books, used book stores, promotional copies, etc.
> 
> 3. Any cure which relies on tighter regulation of the market — especially the kind of extreme measures being advocated by some people — is far worse than the disease. As a widespread phenomenon rather than a nuisance, piracy occurs when artificial restrictions in the market jack up prices beyond what people think are reasonable. The "regulation-enforcement-more regulation" strategy is a bottomless pit which continually recreates (on a larger scale) the problem it supposedly solves. And that commercial effect is often compounded by the more general damage done to social and political freedom.
> 
> In the course of this debate, I mentioned it to my publisher Jim Baen. He more or less virtually snorted and expressed the opinion that if one of his authors — how about you, Eric? — were willing to put up a book for free online that the resulting publicity would more than offset any losses the author might suffer.
> 
> The minute he made the proposal, I realized he was right. After all, Dave Weber's On Basilisk Station has been available for free as a "loss leader" for Baen's for-pay experiment "Webscriptions" for months now. And — hey, whaddaya know? — over that time it's become Baen's most popular backlist title in paper!
> 
> And so I volunteered my first novel, Mother of Demons, to prove the case. And the next day Mother of Demons went up online, offered to the public for free.
> 
> Sure enough, within a day, I received at least half a dozen messages (some posted in public forums, others by private email) from people who told me that, based on hearing about the episode and checking out Mother of Demons, they either had or intended to buy the book. In one or two cases, this was a "gesture of solidarity. "But in most instances, it was because people preferred to read something they liked in a print version and weren't worried about the small cost — once they saw, through sampling it online, that it was a novel they enjoyed. (Mother of Demons is a $5.99 paperback, available in most bookstores. Yes, that a plug. )


----------



## Irda Ranger

diaglo said:
			
		

>



Could be worse.  He could have been the 17th EN Worlder to earn that distinction ....


----------



## Glyfair

Kraydak said:
			
		

> Baen has a free library (oldish books).




Which seems somewhat comparable to WotC's Free downloads in size.


----------



## IanArgent

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Show me an example of any other major book publishers that is making this big of a leap of faith with their customers by providing e-books with every physical book they sell.





Now that one I can show you an example of. Baen books _gives away_ a CD with a LOT of ebooks in many first-printing hardbacks. The CD contains rather more than just the one ebook (it typically contains the entire series that the book is part of, is free to distribute, _and_ they also sell the ebooks online (for roughly $5/ebook). So they eat the cost of inserting the CD, allow people to redistribute the ebooks legally for free (and people do), and still manage to make a profit on selling the ebooks.

Seriously, take a look at Baen's Webscriptions and Free Library. I know the markets aren't totally analogous; but they are making quite a bit of money now on it. No DRM, no watermarks. Giving away selected parts of their back catalog. And making money at it. (www.baen.com, www.webscription.net and www.baen.com/library). In particular, read Eric Flint's letters posted at the library.

I know you've said the Magic Online team is experienced with this kind of thing; but the physical tokens that you can redeem online are hidden in the Magic starter packs, and no-one expects to be able to open them up and thumb through them.

I would say just drop the one-activation-per-code thing. You're essentially going to be doing that anyway for legitimate customers, only with more hassle and time wasted (interaction with customer service and assumption of innocence on the part of the customer). You're still requiring personally identifiable information. Keep the watermarks. Keep the fee with credit card and address. Just allow multiple activations. It'll get you $2 per copy that you would otherwise lose to P2P/Bittorrent; and save you the cost of the customer service interaction.

Alos, please allow people to buy a standalone ebook for a significant fraction of the price of the hardcopy; no more than $10. Same privileges and file as the copy that comes with the hardcover. Again, you get $$ that you would otherwise lose to the underground distribution.


----------



## IanArgent

Multi-posting becase I don't feel like editing large chunks of my previous post to rebut some of the arguments against Baen. first, Baen is a top-tier speculative-fiction publishing house, with numerous NYTimes bestselling authors, not a fly-by-night outfit.

Secondly, they have claimed that the availablility of cheap ebooks (cost less than a paperback) has increased the sales of the hardback books they sell - to the point that they publish a much larger chunk of their books as hardback first.

Third, webscriptions is not semi-random; it's the releases for that month in hardback and paperback, plus round-out if that was a short month.

The Webscriptions format gets them several bonuses. 

First, they sell more copies of books on launch because they sell ebooks to people who would otherwise wait for paperback. While this doesn't get them onto the NYTimes best-sellers list quicker (since ebook ssales aren't recorded, I don't think), it _does_ make back the up-front costs quicker. 

Second, they sell more books to people who wouldn't othersie have picked up the book in question if it wasn't bundled with ones they did want. This got me into at least 2 series I wouldn't otherwise have started, and therefore got me to buy more books. 

Third, they end up selling multiple copies of the same book to people. I have been known to buy the ARC, the ebook, and the hardback of the same book - that's right around $50 for one book if I buy the ARC, the webscription of the book, and the hardback at launch; of which Baen directly keeps $30 (I have no idea how much of what a book sells for at B&N ends up in Baen's bank accounts). Finally, they sell books topeople who wouldn't buy paper books at all in that volume. I rarely buy paper books any more because I have to find places to store them and time to read them. Ebooks are much more portable for me than a paper book because I have a PDA. I have my entire ebook library in my pants pocket; but the paper copied take up most of a bookshelf.

I don't think that the exact style that Baen uses for their ebook strategy is necessarily a good idea for RPG books. But I think a decent go could be made with:

Non-unique activation codes in books with a nominal cost to get the ebook. ($5-$10)
Allowing a DDI activation on another account for a very nominal sum ($1-$2)
"Pure"e-books for 1/3 to 1/2 of cover ($10-$20)
An electronic bundle of the month's releases as ebooks for a discount (10%-20%)

I would be willing to pay the larger price for activations in lieu of unique activations. I still spend more every time I go to a restaurant for dinner, or out to a theater for a movie, or order in chinese food. At the lower end I pay more for a burger, drink, and fries at a fast food joint. And too cheap and it reduces the sales of pure ebooks; which I want for some products. I won't buy the FR books in dead tree - I have little use for them, less shelf space, and no room in my budget for another full-price gaming book. I would be interested in getting them for a reduced price; though.

At the same time, I won't be buying 2 copies of the paper book, or one copy of the paper book and one "pure" ebook for both my wife and I. You've already essentially said we can share the ebook. If I can't activate it again against the DDI multiple times, I probably won't be paying for a second DDI subscription for her...


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but man, do I hate reading PDFs.  I use them because it's convenient to do so for reference, but I'd always rather be looking at something that wasn't backlit.  I'm certain the reason why my eyesight is shot is because I've spent 25 years reading off cathode ray tubes.

I love having PDFs.  They mean I can just take my laptop to the game and not need to have the 20 kg of books I'd need to bring.  However, I hate using them.

Also, my feature request: Robust Bookmarks and Searchable Index.  Nothing's more annoying than being unable to find something in a PDF in the same amount time as it takes me to leaf through the hardcover.


----------



## IanArgent

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but man, do I hate reading PDFs.  I use them because it's convenient to do so for reference, but I'd always rather be looking at something that wasn't backlit.  I'm certain the reason why my eyesight is shot is because I've spent 25 years reading off cathode ray tubes.
> 
> I love having PDFs.  They mean I can just take my laptop to the game and not need to have the 20 kg of books I'd need to bring.  However, I hate using them.
> 
> Also, my feature request: Robust Bookmarks and Searchable Index.  Nothing's more annoying than being unable to find something in a PDF in the same amount time as it takes me to leaf through the hardcover.





And this is why WotC will end up selling both PDFs and paper - if they price it right.


----------



## Scribble

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but man, do I hate reading PDFs.  I use them because it's convenient to do so for reference, but I'd always rather be looking at something that wasn't backlit.  I'm certain the reason why my eyesight is shot is because I've spent 25 years reading off cathode ray tubes.
> 
> I love having PDFs.  They mean I can just take my laptop to the game and not need to have the 20 kg of books I'd need to bring.  However, I hate using them.
> 
> Also, my feature request: Robust Bookmarks and Searchable Index.  Nothing's more annoying than being unable to find something in a PDF in the same amount time as it takes me to leaf through the hardcover.




I'm looking into getting one of those ebook readers... They use digital paper, which doesn't have the problems of backlit screen text.


----------



## Intrope

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but man, do I hate reading PDFs.  I use them because it's convenient to do so for reference, but I'd always rather be looking at something that wasn't backlit.  I'm certain the reason why my eyesight is shot is because I've spent 25 years reading off cathode ray tubes.
> 
> I love having PDFs.  They mean I can just take my laptop to the game and not need to have the 20 kg of books I'd need to bring.  However, I hate using them.



If reading from a screen is hard on your eyes, I'd recommend getting an LCD monitor and putting a lamp behind it; I backlight my flat panels with 90W-equivalent CFL lamps, and it makes them far easier on the eyes.

Also, Adobe Reader's full screen mode is much clearer than the regular mode; whenever I actually read documents in pdf, that's how I do it. 

Eventually, someone will either get e-Paper or OLED displays on the market, which should really fix this. Come on, future! 


			
				Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Also, my feature request: Robust Bookmarks and Searchable Index.  Nothing's more annoying than being unable to find something in a PDF in the same amount time as it takes me to leaf through the hardcover.



Amen! For that matter, everything really ought to hot-link: all _conditions_, spell names, class names, etc. If it was important enough to italicize, bold, or capitalize it ought to hot-link.


----------



## Nom

*Groups and Watermarking*

A decent watermark will allow a non-DRM PDF to be shared within a family.  I'm not going to bat an eyelid at sharing a PDF that prominently and frequently features my D&D account name (or, at the extreme, even my credit card details) with wife.  There's no way I'm going to share it more generally, though.

This technique wont work as well for paid-DDI integration.  One way to handle this would be to allow a small (2? 3? 5?) number of paid-DDI accounts to access the database from a single book code, but all secondary codes must be paid for by the secondary user *and* verified manually from the main account within 15 minutes of being registered.  Secondary codes would not give access to the PDF (you get that directly from the primary user), merely the database integration.  Easy to allow a small number of registered users, but any misuse can easily be handled by clicking the 'report as suspicious' rather than 'accept' button.  The main user should also be able to deregister any secondary accounts.


As for sample copies, the SRD actually fulfils that role rather well.  I returned to D&D at the time of the 3.0 -> 3.5 switch, and did so because I was able to read the SRD rules and think "hey, they've made some serious improvements here".


As for printed book + PDF vs PDF, you need to ask yourself whether what you want is the convenience of having the book as a PDF and don't care about the hard copy (in which case just buy the whole package and leave the book in a box somewhere) or whether you actually want the book at a significant discount by just buying the PDF.  The reality of the latter situation is that most IP business picks a target price for their product and then ensures that the creation cost + manufacturing and shipping cost fits within that guide.  The hard copy of a book is *not* "the product", merely a common and convenient mechanism for shipping it.  Thus, while shipping as a PDF is certainly cheaper, it's naive and unreasonable to expect more than a token discount.

Thus, it's quite consistent (and friendly) for WotC to offer to provide a PDF along with the book for only a token fee, and the rationale for providing that fee makes sense.  A token fee and a broad electronic "paper-trail" will discourage _casual_ piracy and misuse.  And there's nothing stopping them integrating a PDF-only option (at something close to full retail price) as well.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Nom said:
			
		

> A decent watermark will allow a non-DRM PDF to be shared within a family.  I'm not going to bat an eyelid at sharing a PDF that prominently and frequently features my D&D account name (or, at the extreme, even my credit card details) with wife.  There's no way I'm going to share it more generally, though.




Tell me it's fine when you print off a map for Sunday's game, and it goes missing, and someone has your name and credit card details!    

Name is one thing, credit card is another.

RC


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Scribble said:
			
		

> I'm looking into getting one of those ebook readers... They use digital paper, which doesn't have the problems of backlit screen text.



Problems:
1. As far as I know, they only display in B&W
2. Dedicated hardware defeats the purpose of using my laptop to organize my gaming materials.  Not only PDFs, but excel sheets, the internet (my wiki, SRD, useful online tools like d20srd.org's encounter calculator), character sheet blanks for printing, etc.
3. Extra cost for a piece of hardware with very limited use.  I already own a laptop, and it does other stuff besides read PDFs.

Those readers are kind of neat, but not terribly useful for what I want to use them for.


----------



## Scribble

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Problems:
> 1. As far as I know, they only display in B&W
> 2. Dedicated hardware defeats the purpose of using my laptop to organize my gaming materials.  Not only PDFs, but excel sheets, the internet (my wiki, SRD, useful online tools like d20srd.org's encounter calculator), character sheet blanks for printing, etc.
> 3. Extra cost for a piece of hardware with very limited use.  I already own a laptop, and it does other stuff besides read PDFs.
> 
> Those readers are kind of neat, but not terribly useful for what I want to use them for.




Shrug. Sorry for your troubles?

Not sure if they're just black and white, because they supposedly can display pictures? (Unless they only display them in black and white, which seems strange...)

Would pint books solve the problem? 

I'm looking into getting one for the purpose of reading the PDFs, and making my backpack much lighter at gaming sessions. When preparing for games I'll use my computer and then print out the materials I need same as I always do.


----------



## Scribble

As for the books secret code... My guess is that:

1. WOTC as My Rouse said will give people the benefit of the doubt when they call and say their code doesn't work. (I mean if you're a thief wouldn't it be easier for you to just go and get a new code, rather then call WOTC and give them your details???)

2. If someone routinely registers products that later get registered by numerous others, they can look into that person. (Who's most likely a thief...)

3. The PDFs (or whatever they end up being) will probably have the code embedded in them somewhere... If it goes up online, they can see who done it.

Shrug. All in all, it's not my concern. 

WOTC has said through Mr Rouse that if there is a problem with my code I can call, and CS will handle it. Nuff said. Worrying about the details is WOTC's job, not mine. As a customer I just know I'll have my product.


----------



## RFisher

Nifft said:
			
		

> I suspect they'll have very interesting numbers for piracy which -- if they share them -- could be useful for deciding what kind of protection WotC might need.




They do share some numbers on their site. At least they used to.

Of course, the thing about Baen is that they don't make the mistake of trying to measure piracy. They measure sales. Books that they made available for free downloading actually sold better than other books. Who cares how many people may have pirated anything when you see a real increase in the bottom line?

There's no doubt that Baen's & Wizards' businesses are quite different, though. The lesson to learn from Baen, I think, is that it can be worthwhile to put aside the conventional wisdom & guessing & actually experiment.



			
				Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Those readers are kind of neat, but not terribly useful for what I want to use them for.




I would have never bought my eBook myself, but once I had it I fell in love with it.

But, while it is great for fiction, I have to agree with the doctor that it hasn't worked as well for me for RPG books. A more open & standard platform would serve me better for the game table.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Scribble said:
			
		

> Shrug. Sorry for your troubles?
> 
> Not sure if they're just black and white, because they supposedly can display pictures? (Unless they only display them in black and white, which seems strange...)



The technology for creating coloured e-paper has been developed, but I've never seen any indication that it's been implemented.  There's a list of e-paper readers in production over at Wikipedia, and all of them are greyscale.  I think that they have been having problems with getting the resolution of colour e-paper high enough to make it viable.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

RFisher said:
			
		

> I would have never bought my eBook myself, but once I had it I fell in love with it.
> 
> But, while it is great for fiction, I have to agree with the doctor that it hasn't worked as well for me for RPG books. A more open & standard platform would serve me better for the game table.



I think part of the problem is resolution.  How big is a fiction paperback page?  How big is an RPG book page?  How are you going to squeeze that onto a device that was designed to display a paperback-sized block of text?  Also, given that the resolution of one of these readers is usually no more than 160 dpi, it is probably quite difficult to display reduced images and text without it all going terribly blocky.


----------



## Scribble

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> The technology for creating coloured e-paper has been developed, but I've never seen any indication that it's been implemented.  There's a list of e-paper readers in production over at Wikipedia, and all of them are greyscale.  I think that they have been having problems with getting the resolution of colour e-paper high enough to make it viable.




Yeah, upon looking at the sony one I've been looking at, I see while it does view jpegs I think it's intended to view documents saved as Jpeg. (so black and white wouldn't matter.)

In any case, black and white doesn't matter much to me... It would only be for reading the whole book/magazine or looking up rules on the go. No for game prep... That would be at my computer.


----------



## RFisher

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> I think part of the problem is resolution.  How big is a fiction paperback page?  How big is an RPG book page?  How are you going to squeeze that onto a device that was designed to display a paperback-sized block of text?  Also, given that the resolution of one of these readers is usually no more than 160 dpi, it is probably quite difficult to display reduced images and text without it all going terribly blocky.




I'm going to format the text for the device.

Which is why PDF isn't my ideal. As long as it's a PDF that I can extract the text from it without too much pain, though, then I can at least make an attempt at indexing it, reformatting it, & writing scripts to slice & dice it.

My eBook won't handle PDF, paperback sized or no. Even when starting with plain text or bad HTML I unfortunately often have to write a script to munge it a bit before trying to put it on the eBook.

Although, after playing around with an iPhone & an iPod touch, they've made a decent start on how to handle the problem of reading things not meant for a palmtop on a palmtop. I should remember to try out a PDF the next chance I get. Though it'd still be better to use more liquid formats.


----------



## IanArgent

Oh, I would rahter have something more flexible than PDF as well. PDF is about my least favorite format for reading on an electronic device; since the layout is fixed; and cannot be adjusted fro the specifics of your device. Give me HTML at the level of D&D inseider (which comes up quite usable on my PDA), give me an RTF, etc. PDF is nice, but I can make one anytime I like.


----------



## Alan Shutko

IanArgent said:
			
		

> Give me HTML at the level of D&D inseider (which comes up quite usable on my PDA), give me an RTF, etc. PDF is nice, but I can make one anytime I like.




What browser do you use?  With Mobile IE, I can't log into D&D Insider, though I can read the non-protected content.


----------



## IanArgent

Alan Shutko said:
			
		

> What browser do you use?  With Mobile IE, I can't log into D&D Insider, though I can read the non-protected content.




Pocket IE. Let me doublecheck, since my personal device is a somewhat elderly 2003se device, while my work device is a WM2005 unit.

The 2005 device, all I had to do was scroll to the bottom and log in (I'm using One-column). Just pulled up the Ironfang keep article ; quite readable

The 2003se device takes a while to load - 1xRTT and all that (yay for a2x dialup connection). Timed out before fully loading and left me with a no javascript error. I know I had this before, but I thought I had been able to get in at least once. I may have done so by logging in at Gleemax first, since I think I was checking a forum post.


----------



## Mercule

IanArgent said:
			
		

> Pocket IE. Let me doublecheck, since my personal device is a somewhat elderly 2003se device, while my work device is a WM2005 unit.
> 
> The 2005 device, all I had to do was scroll to the bottom and log in (I'm using One-column). Just pulled up the Ironfang keep article ; quite readable.




Great news.  I'm almost certainly getting a PPC phone when I get a chance to re-up in December, so it's good to know that I'll be able to access what will probably be a favored site with it.


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## Angellis_ater

Oh the irony looking back at this thread. Nominal fee being "a cup of coffee" - now we can find PDFs for the nominal price of 25 dollars. Damn, your coffees are a bang more expensive in the US than over here in Europe...

But then, promises promises - not exactly WotC's forte these days.


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## zoroaster100

To me it depends if they mean the price of a cup of coffee at a diner versus a cup of coffee at Starbucks.


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## Giryan

zoroaster100 said:


> To me it depends if they mean the price of a cup of coffee at a diner versus a cup of coffee at Starbucks.




Starbucks doesn't manage to price a coffee at $25 do they? I mean, I know the Dollar's not looking great at the moment, but that's crazy.


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## Alvoros

Angellis_ater said:


> Oh the irony looking back at this thread. Nominal fee being "a cup of coffee" - now we can find PDFs for the nominal price of 25 dollars. Damn, your coffees are a bang more expensive in the US than over here in Europe...
> 
> But then, promises promises - not exactly WotC's forte these days.




I believe you are confusing the sales methods here though.....(or just trying to be silly/funny). 

1) This thread and D&DInsider is about purchasing ADD-ON electronic rights to people that have ALREADY purchased the books and have the electronic subscription.  This has nothing to do with the electronic versions of the books for sale now at DriveThruRPG etc.

2) You can now purchase the PDF versions of the books (and modules etc.) now INSTEAD of purchasing the hard copy book.  Yes, the prices are the same (except you don't have to waste gas/pollute/drive to purchase the book, kill trees for paper etc.).

I had purchased H1 KoTS on paper, but I purchased H2 electronically. Why?  I can easily read the module electronically and print the odd page here and there I need to supply player info....it is actually EASIER for me, as I can "snip" the pictures easily from the PDF version, and print them out to supply players maps, pictures etc.  I can have copies of the modules on my work computer, home computer etc. so I can brush up on the module whereever I am without carrying a paper copy around...I can even read it on my Blackberry if I get desperate.

I love the OPTION of purchasing accessories in PDF instead of on paper...even at full cost.  Makes perfect sense to me for SOME of the products....but not all.  But at least I get the option.

Alvo


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## Spatula

Angellis_ater said:


> Oh the irony looking back at this thread. Nominal fee being "a cup of coffee" - now we can find PDFs for the nominal price of 25 dollars. Damn, your coffees are a bang more expensive in the US than over here in Europe...
> 
> But then, promises promises - not exactly WotC's forte these days.



The nominal fee was for buying an electionic version of a book that you already physically owned, and that whole scheme has been scrapped in favor of the online rules database.


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## mattdm

Spatula said:


> The nominal fee was for buying an electionic version of a book that you already physically owned, and that whole scheme has been scrapped in favor of the online rules database.




Which, frankly, sucks as an alternative.


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## DLichen

As a moocher of my game group who has never paid for a book in full, I would love if each physical book came with a number of redeemable virtual copies instead of just one.

I guess it's economically unwise to let me chip in for a book and get a whole legit pdf to myself, but hey, I can dream.


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