# Tremorsense vs. invisibility



## mattmaz (Feb 6, 2007)

Does tremorsense negate invisiblity?  I understand that something with tremorsense would know where the invisible foe is, but would the 50% miss chance still apply?

Thanks,



TREMORSENSE
A creature with tremorsense automatically senses the location of anything that is in contact with the ground and within range.

If no straight path exists through the ground from the creature to those that it’s sensing, then the range defines the maximum distance of the shortest indirect path. It must itself be in contact with the ground, and the creatures must be moving. 

As long as the other creatures are taking physical actions, including casting spells with somatic components, they’re considered moving; they don’t have to move from place to place for a creature with tremorsense to detect them.


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## hong (Feb 6, 2007)

Tremorsense means you know what square the foe is in, but you still have the 50% miss chance.


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## shilsen (Feb 6, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Tremorsense means you know what square the foe is in, but you still have the 50% miss chance.



 What he said.


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## mattmaz (Feb 6, 2007)

Thanks for the info. The reason it was in question is becuase either the DMG or MM uses the words "pinpoints the location".  The DM's interpretation was that meant the creature knew exactly where the foe was with no miss chance.


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## Jesus_marley (Feb 6, 2007)

I would rule that tremorsense trumps invisibility. One can argue that a creature with tremorsense does not need eyes to locate an object. Since invisibility affects vision, tremorsense would be unaffected.


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## phindar (Feb 6, 2007)

The hard part of Invis is not that you can't see them (50% Miss Chance), its that you don't know where they are.  You have to pick the right hex to even get a miss chance.  Tremorsense lets you pinpoint the hex, so all you have to do is hit the ac and beat the 50%.  Blindsight is what trumps invisibility.


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## Quartz (Feb 6, 2007)

Have you seen the film _Tremors_? If you stay absolutely still, you can't be detected by Tremorsense.


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## Dross (Feb 7, 2007)

I'd also add:
Tremorsense does not tell you whether the opponent is: high or short, wide or thin, prone or ducking or bent double or standing. This is what the 50% miss chance is for.


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## Hypersmurf (Feb 7, 2007)

mattmaz said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info. The reason it was in question is becuase either the DMG or MM uses the words "pinpoints the location".  The DM's interpretation was that meant the creature knew exactly where the foe was with no miss chance.




The phrase "pinpoint the location" is used frequently in the rules with respect to invisibility, and it means that you know what square the creature is in.

It's clear in this rule in particular, from the DMG entry for Invisibility under Special Abilities and Conditions:
_It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance)._
... that "pinpoint the location" does not include "remove the miss chance".

-Hyp.


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## Sejs (Feb 7, 2007)

shilsen said:
			
		

> What he said.



What he said he said.


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## Whimsical (Feb 7, 2007)

Here's something to put it in perspective. Everyone can pinpoint the location of someone with partial concealment (20% miss chance). If pinpointing bypasses concealment, what's the point of the 20% miss chance?


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## William drake (Feb 8, 2007)

*Only sometimes*

If their moving, then the tremorsense makes it so that they are seen, but if still, then there are no tremors, therefore, they cant be seen.

Blindsight I would also rule as a form of tremorsense based on disturbances in the air,so, for those with higher senses then others would still note those who arn't moving, they would be breathing, their chests heaving, and both would disturb the air.

and if the argument is about the 50% miss chance, then to bad. The person stands in the block, the block covers their reach, Five Feat, and their foe prob also attacks with a Five Feat arc, therefore, when swining, unless the foe ducks, or jumps out of the way, then the attackers weapon covers all of the square where their foe was. If he moves, he is followed because of the tremors caused by his feat or his body if he dives away.


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## the_redbeard (Feb 8, 2007)

William drake said:
			
		

> If their moving, then the tremorsense makes it so that they are seen, but if still, then there are no tremors, therefore, they cant be seen.
> 
> Blindsight I would also rule as a form of tremorsense based on disturbances in the air,so, for those with higher senses then others would still note those who arn't moving, they would be breathing, their chests heaving, and both would disturb the air.
> 
> and if the argument is about the 50% miss chance, then to bad. The person stands in the block, the block covers their reach, Five Feat, and their foe prob also attacks with a Five Feat arc, therefore, when swining, unless the foe ducks, or jumps out of the way, then the attackers weapon covers all of the square where their foe was. If he moves, he is followed because of the tremors caused by his feat or his body if he dives away.




Look at how invisiblity affects the hide vs spot contest:  
When you're moving and invisible, you hide at +20.
When you're still and invisible, you hide at +40.
This is a hide vs spot contest to merely determine the hex you're in.  You still get the miss chance even if you know the hex.  The character could be anywhere in the hex, and I'd say just centered in the hex, dodging, jumping, etc.  Let me repeat: Even when you know what hex someone is in, you get the miss chance.

I'd say that tremor sense would give you +20 on your spot on an invisible person  - to determine the hex that the invisible person is in.  It isn't See Invisible.

Blind-fight and tremorsense would be a good combo though.


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## Sejs (Feb 9, 2007)

the_redbeard said:
			
		

> I'd say that tremor sense would give you +20 on your spot on an invisible person  - to determine the hex that the invisible person is in.  It isn't See Invisible.



Unnecessary?  

_"A creature with tremorsense automatically senses the location of anything that is in contact with the ground and within range."_

No check needed.  If they're moving and in range, you know what hex they're in automatically.

Blind-Fight would still be good, though.


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## Aluvial (Feb 9, 2007)

So does Scent work the same way, or can you "smell" your target, not just the square it's in?

Aluvial


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## phindar (Feb 9, 2007)

Scent, IIRC, let's you know what direction your opponent is in, and when you are within 5' let's you pinpoint the hex.  (You still have the 50% Miss Chance, but you know where to strike.)


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