# Should there be variable recovery with a long rest?



## mellored

For example

*Terrible rest*: you regain half your hit dice, 1/4 your spell slots, and 1/4 of any other ability that recharges on a long rest, and gain 1 level of exhaustion.
examples:  you where attacked multiple times in the middle of the night, the smoke of the volcano makes it hard to breathe, hail is pounding your bed roll, no food or water to drink, maddening dreams haunt this crypt, trying to sleep on a horse while traveling.

*Uncomfortable rest*:  you regain all your hit dice (spend any remaining ones first), 1/2 your spell slots, and 1/2 of any other ability that recharges on a long rest.
Example: you where attacked in the middle of the night, the ground is wet and your food is soggy, the place gives off a creepy and hostile vibe,  your equipment is damaged and you can only make makeshift repairs, trying to sleep in a carriage while traveling.

*Comfortable rest: *regain all your hit points, hit dice, spell slots, and 1 level of exhaustion.
Examples:  a simple inn and a cup of mead, a cottage on the side of the road, a quiet and warm night in a peaceful clearing, a ranger who knows how to make a quick shelter and what leaves make the best bed, leomunds tiny hut.

*Luxury rest*: as comfortable rest, restore 3 levels of exhaustion, and gain temporary hit points equal to your level.
Examples: a banquet followed by a hot bath and comfortable bed, servants who can mend your clothes and repair equipment, a holy sanctuary where you feel at peace, Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion.

This might also be a chart, use survival skill, or other stuff stuff.

I.e. Regain hit dice equal you half your survival roll.  Or roll a DC depends on conditions.


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## Ruin Explorer

I think your examples underestimate how absolutely annoying it would be to have to deal with stuff like working "1/4 of your spell slots" on the fly, and I think this would also cause amazing hyperfocus from players on ways to get "comfortable rest", which would massively benefit groups with a caster who can provide that (I think Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard?). Those groups would also be basically able to sidestep Terrible and Uncomfortable rest, so suddenly the whole problem comes back.

It also has the issue that you're not _really_ disincentivized from Long Resting - it's still the best option - it's just that it's crummy in some situations (but still better than not resting at all). It almost encourages the 5MWD in a way, because most 5MWDs are going to use up less than 25-50% of your resources and HD, aren't they? So if you 5MWD and then get a "Uncomfortable rest" you actually came out ahead of the guys who didn't rest. It's only if you could have realistically got a Comfortable rest some hours later in the same area/situation (which seems unlikely) that there's even the question of whether to rest.

Personally I'd say use an entirely other method, like an actual different rest.


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## Shiroiken

I think this is too granular, but having something to differentiate a long rest during an adventure and a long rest in town is a good idea. I've used a "medium rest," where you get back half HP, half HD, and only half your abilities. It's a bit wonky, but it could be adapted for an interrupted rest as well. As of right now, my next campaign is going to use 8 hr short rests (as per long rests now) and downtime for long rests (3 days of full rest or 7 days during another downtime activity).


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## Tales and Chronicles

My favored approach is to map them to the lifestyle expenses as seen in the DMG. Depending of the level of comfort and safety of the rest, the players may have to pass a Con check to see if they benefit from the rest at all. The DC depends of the ''lifestyle'' level.


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## tetrasodium

mellored said:


> For example
> 
> *Terrible rest*: you regain half your hit dice, 1/4 your spell slots, and 1/4 of any other ability that recharges on a long rest, and gain 1 level of exhaustion.
> examples:  you where attacked multiple times in the middle of the night, the smoke of the volcano makes it hard to breathe, hail is pounding your bed roll, no food or water to drink, maddening dreams haunt this crypt, trying to sleep on a horse while traveling.
> 
> *Uncomfortable rest*:  you regain all your hit dice (spend any remaining ones first), 1/2 your spell slots, and 1/2 of any other ability that recharges on a long rest.
> Example: you where attacked in the middle of the night, the ground is wet and your food is soggy, the place gives off a creepy and hostile vibe,  your equipment is damaged and you can only make makeshift repairs, trying to sleep in a carriage while traveling.
> 
> *Comfortable rest: *regain all your hit points, hit dice, spell slots, and 1 level of exhaustion.
> Examples:  a simple inn and a cup of mead, a cottage on the side of the road, a quiet and warm night in a peaceful clearing, a ranger who knows how to make a quick shelter and what leaves make the best bed, leomunds tiny hut.
> 
> *Luxury rest*: as comfortable rest, restore 3 levels of exhaustion, and gain temporary hit points equal to your level.
> Examples: a banquet followed by a hot bath and comfortable bed, servants who can mend your clothes and repair equipment, a holy sanctuary where you feel at peace, Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion.
> 
> This might also be a chart, use survival skill, or other stuff stuff.
> 
> I.e. Regain hit dice equal you half your survival roll.  Or roll a DC depends on conditions.



In editions where the natural healing was low enough that players often forget what it was & needed to look it up when they were forced into using it instead of a handwave & nobody really cared if they got the 1/2/3/4hp of recovery right or not spell slots tended to be used quite a bit towards recovery.  You could do something like an improved version of arcane/nature's recovery but doing that  results in the healers just saying "hell no we are going back to town for a week or whatever, I reject your plan because it makes me into luggage."

The way to disincentivize resting just to recover spell slots is by recognizing the damage concentration on basically every buff does and admit "if we did that then these buffs would expire even though we have a few hours left on them" was a positive influence on the game,


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## Yaarel

All rests are short rests.

Twice PER LEVEL, a player can choose to make a short rest be a long rest instead.


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## Clint_L

I like where OP is going but would probably just simpliy it to "uncomfortable long rest" (might call it partial long rest instead) and long rest. I definitely wouldn't go for the luxury rest option; too cheap and easy for a significant advantage (and makes MMM, already a great spell, into a must-have so that every single mid-upper level party will need someone who can cast it every night). I don't want every adventuring day to end with "and then we all go into Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion for another amazing evening." Kinda kills the drama.

Though come to think of it, both season 1 and season 2 of Critical Role wound up doing this.


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## Clint_L

Yaarel said:


> All rests are short rests.
> 
> Twice PER LEVEL, a player can choose to make a short rest be a long rest instead.



So...how do most spell casters ever recover their spells? What if I like spending a long time between levels (and I do)? This seems like a huge nerf to spell casters.

Also, I hate short rests and want them gone, not made the main rest mechanic. Hit dice are a clunky mechanic.


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## Yaarel

Clint_L said:


> So...how do most spell casters ever recover their spells? What if I like spending a long time between levels (and I do)? This seems like a huge nerf to spell casters.
> 
> Also, I hate short rests and want them gone, not made the main rest mechanic. Hit dice are a clunky mechanic.




When all rests are short rests, except two per level become long rests, the math works out the same. With regard to spells: short rest is that, long rest is that. Such as Warlock versus Wizard.

The difference is, the DM can create any number of narratives they want. A level might happen in a single day with door-to-door dungeon combat encounters. Or stretch out across months while sailing on a ship with occasional encounters. Or be in a social campaign with many social encounter challenges. If the effort to overcome the challenge feels worth an encounter, it counts as an encounter.

Roughly, there are about 9 encounters per level, but it depends on which level, and tier 5-8 is more like 15 encounters per level.

Where the math (hilariously) assumes about 7 encounters per day (6-8), the math anticipates about two long rests per about every 14 encounters.

Whence two long rests per level works well.

These long rests can happen at ANY time during the level.


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## mellored

Clint_L said:


> So...how do most spell casters ever recover their spells? What if I like spending a long time between levels (and I do)?



Can't say I like the rest-per-level idea.

But it's easy enough to make it 3 per level if you want more time each level.  Or 4.


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## tetrasodium

mellored said:


> Can't say I like the rest-per-level idea.
> 
> But it's easy enough to make it 3 per level if you want more time each level.  Or 4.



Nor I.  My games tend to advance  in levels much more slowly than most (deliberately) & the per level thing would put rather extreme pressure on advancement or making the gm normalize frequent rests.  It would have the upside of creating a lot of room _ (maybe too much)_ for scrolls/magic items/wands to fill the gap but it seems like it would create more problems than it solves in the long run.


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## TerraDave

For a while I have used a restiness rule. Unless an area is “resty”, there is a 50% of benefiting from a short rest instead of a long rest. The % can very depending on the place chosen to overnight.


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## Minigiant

I'm a fan of 2 Axis.


One axis is *Time*. How long you rest. 

Quick- 5 Minutes
Short- 1 hour
Long- 8 hours
Full- 1 day
Extended- 3 days
The other axis is *Location*. How safe you rest and how many recovery and relaxation facilities the area has. 

Respite- Downtime in an actively hostile and dangerous environment.
Break- Downtime in a potentially dangerous environment or actively upsetting
Rest- Downtime in a safe environment
Holiday- Downtime in a safe environment designed for healing, recovery, and relaxation
The two are combined to determine your recovery.


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## FallenRX

Id rather they just go back to the old 3.5e resting standards, as the 4E resting standards do not work for the type of 3e-style game this is.

8 Hours for a short rest.

24 hours for a long rest.

The main issue with how they did it in 3.5e was it didnt affect casters because casting recovery was still 8 hours seperated from the rest system(because wasnt a thing until 4e). It was a hold over from 2e, but 2e's resting doesnt work with spellcasting buffed like it was in 3e, where its not as limited and all can be done in a action.

But this is not a issue in 5e, simply going back to this(making the current resting rules a variant), would address a lot of the issues with the pacing and style of game 5e is, as tying casters back to it address the balance issue/handwaving issue of the 3.5e era, as they werent back then.


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## Clint_L

Yaarel said:


> When all rests are short rests, except two per level become long rests, the math works out the same. With regard to spells: short rest is that, long rest is that. Such as Warlock versus Wizard.
> 
> The difference is, the DM can create any number of narratives they want. A level might happen in a single day with door-to-door dungeon combat encounters. Or stretch out across months while sailing on a ship with occasional encounters. Or be in a social campaign with many social encounter challenges. If the effort to overcome the challenge feels worth an encounter, it counts as an encounter.
> 
> Roughly, there are about 9 encounters per level, but it depends on which level, and tier 5-8 is more like 15 encounters per level.
> 
> Where the math (hilariously) assumes about 7 encounters per day (6-8), the math anticipates about two long rests per about every 14 encounters.
> 
> Whence two long rests per level works well.
> 
> These long rests can happen at ANY time during the level.



You're making a lot of assumptions about other people's campaigns. I don't understand what advantage is gained by tying rests to level progression. Those things are unrelated.


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## Yaarel

Clint_L said:


> You're making a lot of assumptions about other people's campaigns. I don't understand what advantage is gained by tying rests to level progression. Those things are unrelated.



The short rest is the normal rest.

The long rest represents the "refresh", the "rally", the "second wind", the "hope", the "renewal of energy" to push on.

These refreshes can potentially happen at any time, but are unusual cannot happen every time.

Importantly, the flexibility of when it happens, allows the DM to focus on the story and stop worrying about time-compressing the story.

In this context, there is the "rest" (short rest) and the "refresh" (long rest) or deep rest.

The long (deep) rest can be 1 hour, 8 hours, whatever rest makes sense in the narrative context.


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## mellored

tetrasodium said:


> Nor I.  My games tend to advance  in levels much more slowly than most (deliberately) & the per level thing would put rather extreme pressure on advancement or making the gm normalize frequent rests.  It would have the upside of creating a lot of room _ (maybe too much)_ for scrolls/magic items/wands to fill the gap but it seems like it would create more problems than it solves in the long run.



The 2 main issues IMO.

 That you need to know ahead of time how long your spend at each level.  I mean, players don't always follow the plot, and could get side tracked for a while.  Or they might bypass several encounters with some cleverness and end the boss in a day.
It just doesn't work narrativly that you could spend a week resting in town and not heal, but spend a night in a damp dungeon and get everything back.
As far as balance goes, milestones do work well to keep a set ratio of short and long rest.  But I would rather have some imbalances and a better story.


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## mellored

Clint_L said:


> I like where OP is going but would probably just simpliy it to "uncomfortable long rest" (might call it partial long rest instead) and long rest.



Middle rest was also suggested.


Clint_L said:


> I definitely wouldn't go for the luxury rest option; too cheap and easy for a significant advantage (and makes MMM, already a great spell, into a must-have so that every single mid-upper level party will need someone who can cast it every night). I don't want every adventuring day to end with "and then we all go into Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion for another amazing evening." Kinda kills the drama.



Consider you need to end the day with a level 7 spell slot (not a ritual) and not use it to cast force cage, i think it's plenty balanced.  Or compared to say... a level 4 aid spell.  Or some potions of heroism.

I'm not committed to the luxury rest or anything.  But I'm ok if MMM has a few more advantages over casting leomunds tiny hut as a ritual.


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## mellored

Hmmm...
What if recovery was a die roll?

I.e.
Make an Arcana check when you take a long rest.  You regain a number of spell levels equal to half the roll (minimum 1).
The DM may declare a penalty or bonus to the roll depending on the resting conditions.  With extremely poor resting getting a -5, up to a +5 if you have access to your wizards tower or similar.


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## rules.mechanic

I think the Xanathar's Guide to Everything long rest rules are pretty reasonable. Can impose rest as if in medium/heavy armor for bad rest. Exhaustion if no rest.


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## Crimson Longinus

What I would prefer is just one type of rest that refreshes fraction of your resources. Then if you have time you can have multiple for a full refresh (there still can be limit how often you can take them.) Then it also is easy to alter whether this rest is fifteen minutes or a day or whatever to suit the pacing of your campaign.


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## Scott Christian

For me, it is an all or nothing piece. They want the game streamlined, and in fact, have done a great job with making it easy and simple. Mucking up the waters, especially for something as important as regaining hit points and resources, seems a move in the wrong direction. I am fine with it being an alternative in the DMG. 
My own homebrew uses a mix, and I find it works great. But healing is limited, and it takes a week to heal, which is the reason the variable method works. I think it also plays into the story better. It lets the comforts of home, a safe place, a welcoming host mean something.


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## Minigiant

It's a bit complex but this is what I use


TimeManeuver/Ki/AP RecoveryHD RecoveryHP RecoverySlots/Rage RecoveryExhaustion RecoveryMaximum HP ResetQuickXShortXXLongXXXXFullXXXXXExtendedXXXXXX

Beaks give half recovery, Rests 100% recovery. Vacations give double recovery. A quick vacation, like a quick dip in a magic pool, gives your monk twice his normal Ki points.

This gives the DM control of the availability of rests and the players power to seek out and use them.


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