# Is Heavy Metal "Rebellious"?



## TarionzCousin (Oct 9, 2010)

Prompted by The Shaman's statement in this post.

Is Heavy Metal Music "rebellious"? 

Yes, very rebellious.
Somewhat rebellious.
Barely rebellious.
Not rebellious.



			
				dictionary.com said:
			
		

> re·bel·lious
> –adjective
> 
> 1. defying or resisting some established authority, government, or tradition; insubordinate; inclined to rebel.
> ...


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## Relique du Madde (Oct 9, 2010)

Yes because all the normal people tend to like pop, rap, and whatever that noise Lady Gaga is classified as.


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## Cor_Malek (Oct 9, 2010)

In some way, vaguely, perhaps... maybe. I'd rather go with nonconformist, but even then - in the narrow, musical-trends meaning. And still vaguely.
If you wanted to be rebellious in my high-school, you'd listen to rap. Floyds and Zeppelins were School-shop music. On my university, probably everyone at least at some point before listened to heavy metal (and if they stayed past 6pm they listened to it anyway, as one of doctors liked to listen to loud music when most people were out (that's how I was introduced to Beatallica)).

It was rebellious when electric guitars, and percussion and skin accessories were. It had notes, it had melody - even Raining Blood has. Heavy metal has tonnes, has harmony.

You want XXI century rebellious? Have some Pink F*reud* :
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NPiOjFVQRc]theehee[/ame]

Sadly, I wasn't able to find appropriate piece of yass, like Mazzolls Music for Supermarkets (not original name, translation for clarity).


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## kiznit (Oct 9, 2010)

Relique du Madde said:


> Yes because all the normal people tend to like pop, rap, and whatever that noise Lady Gaga is classified as.



What kind of normal people do you know?

I know plenty of perfectly normal people who enjoy heavy metal wholeheartedly.

What if I enjoy heavy metal _and_ Lady Gaga? Is that abnormal?


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## Relique du Madde (Oct 9, 2010)

Well, my little brother (a teen ager) and all the delinquents he hangs out with tend to listen to rap, pop and some 'main stream 2000s punk' (mostly green day though).  Unfortunately some of his music tastes seem to be influenced by the current girl he's chasing which usually leads to him adding a new pop band or two on his ipod (even though 90% of the time he is quoting Emenem or Easy E).

Alot of random people I know or interact with all seem to like Lady Gaga, however I don't and she annoys me.

Music style wise, I tend to listen to Goth, Ethereal, Ambient, 80s new wave, Classic rock I am known to turn on the classic jazz/blues station once  every fortnight.


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## evileeyore (Oct 9, 2010)

kiznit said:


> What if I enjoy heavy metal _and_ Lady Gaga? Is that abnormal?




No that isn't normal at all, in fact someone will be around to drag you into the street to be beaten to death with clubs.


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## grufflehead (Oct 9, 2010)

Tell you what I'd like to see: Lady Gaga *in* an Iron Maiden


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## El Mahdi (Oct 9, 2010)

grufflehead said:


> Tell you what I'd like to see: Lady Gaga *in* an Iron Maiden




But then she'd become a martyr...and the people would call her Armored Saint!


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## El Mahdi (Oct 9, 2010)

TarionzCousin said:


> ...Are you [-]saying[/-] snorting that heavy metal isn't rebellious? Seriously?






The Shaman said:


> ...Not for twenty years at least. Seriously.




Reminds me of a movie quote:

Top Dollar: Problem is, it's all been done before...see what I'm saying?

Thug: It's no reason to quit.

Top Dollar: 
Wrong.  Best reason to quit...only reason to quit.  A man has an idea.  The idea attracts others...like minded.  The idea expands.  The idea becomes an institution.

What was the idea?  That's whats been botherin' me boys.  And I'll tell you, when I used to think about the idea itself, it put a big old smile on my face.  You see Gentlemen, Greed (profit/conformity) is for amateurs.  Disorder...  Chaos...  Anarchy...  Now that's Fun!  

...The idea has become the institution Boys...

...No, I want you to set a fire so damn big the gods will notice us again!  I want all you boys to look me straight in the eye one more time and say, _*"Are We Having Fun...!"*_.
​


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 9, 2010)

I'd say the Shaman is just looking at the pop-metal bands like A7X, which while "rebellious-y", are so mainly in terms of form and not message.

There are still metal bands out there that espouse anti-Christian, anti-conformist, anarchic, violent or pro-drug etc. messages- and some that even live their music- that I still have to point at metal as one of the truly rebellious musical genres out there.


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## IronWolf (Oct 9, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I'd say the Shaman is just looking at the pop-metal bands like A7X, which while "rebellious-y", are so mainly in terms of form and not message.
> 
> There are still metal bands out there that espouse anti-Christian, anti-conformist, anarchic, violent or pro-drug etc. messages- and some that even live their music- that I still have to point at metal as one of the truly rebellious musical genres out there.




That was my thought as well.  While I have not kept up with the heavy metal scene for many years, I know when I was that what the mainstream were listening to and calling heavy metal was *not* the heavy metal that I was listening too.


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## Umbran (Oct 9, 2010)

At one time, listening to Elvis was rebellious.  

At one time, listening to the Beatles was rebellious.

At one time, listening to Heavy Metal music was rebellious.

Today?  None of those are rebellion.  Heck Elvis, the Beatles, and a goodly amount of Heavy Metal are "classics" at this point.

The root of rebellion is doing that which is not acceptable - doing that which drives your parents up the wall, which your peers look at you funny for doing. HM is too old a genre, too well-known, too accepted as they way things are to be rebellious.


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## Cor_Malek (Oct 9, 2010)

evileeyore said:


> No that isn't normal at all, in fact someone will be around to drag you into the street to be beaten to death with clubs.




Nah, that's just called moshpit.




Dannyalcatraz said:


> There are still metal bands out there that espouse anti-Christian, anti-conformist, anarchic, violent or pro-drug etc. messages- and some that even live their music- that I still have to point at metal as one of the truly rebellious musical genres out there.




First off - those bands mostly insist on not being called heavy, but rather [grim adjective] metal. Psycho Death Neo Pagan Metal +6.

And... Yes, but those are as common in rap music - maybe even moreso. In fact, hip hop is the sound of rebels in many Arabic countries (_not_ anti-religious though AFAIK).
Many genres are being used to express those messages, sometimes the artist doesn't even limit himself to one.
As to "anti-christian" messages - it might be that we've been exposed to different ones*, or a cognitive bias of one of us - but I mostly see *pro* neopagan/satanist, and if Christianity is mentioned - it's as The Big Dog, and often mashed with rest of Religions of the Book.

*99% it's the first one, but I wanted to throw the idea out there, as many people mistake messages of ie Vader as being "anti" whatever, while it's more about being pro - their mojo. Just making sure.


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## IronWolf (Oct 9, 2010)

Umbran said:


> The root of rebellion is doing that which is not acceptable - doing that which drives your parents up the wall, which your peers look at you funny for doing. HM is too old a genre, too well-known, too accepted as they way things are to be rebellious.




The genre evolves over time and can still push the limits.  While Metallica is mainstream now, heavy metal evolved past that and beyond.  I am pretty certain there are still forms of heavy metal that are on the fringes of mainstream and pushing styles and such that are non-conformist.

Just like back in the 80's all the mainstream high school kids thought Poison, Skid Row, White Lion were heavy metal, there were those of us listening to Metallica (still not mainstream at the time), Motorhead, Megadeth, Slayer on the fringes.


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## Remus Lupin (Oct 9, 2010)

The problem with the idea of music as "rebellious" in any sense these days is that the music industry has developed such a slick method of commercializing music that as soon as anything becomes even remotely popular, all of a sudden there are a dozen copy cat bands with big label contracts and major radio play. Heck, in the 1990s, one day there was no such thing as alternative rock, then there was Nirvana, and then for a decade you couldn't get away from alternative rock.


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## Morkul (Oct 9, 2010)

i went with NOT REBELLIOUS.  all current musical genres have been watered down for consumption by the masses and have a corresponding look to go with...


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## jonesy (Oct 9, 2010)

My mom listens to it.

How can you be rebellious when my mom listens to it?


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## Aeolius (Oct 9, 2010)

Cor_Malek said:


> ...but I mostly see *pro* neopagan/satanist, and if Christianity is mentioned - it's as The Big Dog, and often mashed with rest of Religions of the Book.




Before this thread gets closed, I might point out that I can think of no two beliefs more diametrically opposed that satanism and neopaganism. 

As for me, I tend to avoid music where the music is screamed or slurred beyond recognition; including bits from heavy metal, hair bands, Creed, etc. About the closest to heavy metal I'll get is hard rock bands like Twisted Sister or Scorpions. I enjoy New Age, 80s New Wave, Jazz, music from the 30s/40s, movie soundtracks, classical, and similar genres. I've had the same favorite song for nearly 40 years - Hot Butter's cover of "Popcorn" (by Gershon Kingsley).

I admit to an inexplicable fascination with calliope/circus organ music. Now THAT'S rebellious... just ask my kids when I blare "Under the Double Eagle" in the mornings, to get them out of bed.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 9, 2010)

> First off - those bands mostly insist on not being called heavy, but rather [grim adjective] metal. Psycho Death Neo Pagan Metal +6.




They could call themselves Gummi-Bear Swing if they wanted- musically, they're a subset of Heavy Metal.

As for pro-pagan vs anti-Christian, yes, it's a matter of which particular band youre listening to; both exist.


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## Janx (Oct 9, 2010)

In the US, I don't think heavy metal was ever watered down for the masses.  Namely because, even today, the only heavy metal you'll hear on the radio is Metallica.

there might be a rare station that'll play black sabbath.  But you'll never hear a station that is nothing but heavy metal in all in its varied forms. Note, I discount the hair bands like Motley Crue, Poison, Skid Row, etc.  They looked heavy, but they were not.

So, in the US,  heavy metal is listened to by a minority.  Those of us from the 80's who still like it, and counter-culture youth.

Nowadays, it seems rap is the new counter-culture thing, at least for the white kids.

Back in the 80's my HM listening included:
Metallica, Anthrax, Megadeath, Iron Maiden, Manowar, Fates Warning, Death Angel, Exodus, Twisted Sister, Forced Entry, Mordred, Suicidal Tendencies.  Just to name a few of the stuff I had on tape.

Now, of that, I pretty much only still listen to Iron maiden.  I can only think of a couple of newer bands nowadays that are releasing that I've heard (nightwish, Rhapsody).

I do know there is a slew of modern HM bands I've never heard of.  So it's not dead.  I'm just not into that flavor of music anymore.


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## El Mahdi (Oct 9, 2010)

Umbran said:


> ...The root of rebellion is doing that which is not acceptable - doing that which drives your parents up the wall, which your peers look at you funny for doing. ...




Oh!  You mean like RPG's?!


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## Cor_Malek (Oct 9, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> They could call themselves Gummi-Bear Swing if they wanted- musically, they're a subset of Heavy Metal.



Amen! It's somewhat a touchy territory for me - I'm physically unable to tell the difference between what people call sub-genres. Slayer, Metallica, Iron Maiden and Dio seat in the same folder as Nirvana, Sinatras and Morisette - "01 - Rockopop"  If I had more, they might get a separate folder as Oi! got, but that would be it.

Ah! Interesting trivia - "Psycho Death Neo Pagan Metal" was what my friend's band claimed (with deadpan expressions) to play, to spoof the _one band - one genre_ thing that was going on on our local musical scene back then  +6 was my addition 




Aeolius said:


> I might point out that I can think of no two beliefs more diametrically opposed that satanism and neopaganism.



Totally irrelevant to the point I was making there though. Besides:


Dannyalcatraz said:


> As for pro-pagan vs anti-Christian, yes, it's a matter of which particular band youre listening to; both exist.



I thought about it, and yeah - I counted a lot of purely anti-christian bands, much to my surprise (as it would seem that they should have less incentive to go that way nowadays, when vocal defiance against religion is perceived more and more as part of our culture and Christianity, which kind of defeats the whole point).
So yeah - it actually was cognitive bias, but on my part.


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## jonesy (Oct 9, 2010)

Cor_Malek said:


> I'm physically unable to tell the difference between what people call sub-genres. Slayer, Metallica, Iron Maiden and Dio seat in the same folder as Nirvana, Sinatras and Morisette - "01 - Rockopop"  If I had more, they might get a separate folder as Oi! got, but that would be it.



And they keep changing the categories! What they now call some genres wasn't what they used to be called.

I group my music based on the emotion they give me. I have: Beat, Classic, Feel, Force, Fun, Grim, Heart, Mood, Pulse, Rock, Rush, Sexy and Wild. Xmas is a separate category for some reason. 

Classic has everything made before 1950.


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## Relique du Madde (Oct 9, 2010)

This bring up a good point, what about Christian *death-metal* bands?  Are they being rebellious considering that being all anti-christian is starting to be considered the norm?  Though I do admit, that's not as rebellious as being a fan of traditional Bavarian music circa the 1900s.


Oh and someone give El Mahdi exp for me since he quoted _the Crow_.


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## jonesy (Oct 9, 2010)

Relique du Madde said:


> This bring up a good point, what about Christian *death-metal* bands?



Since I can't understand a word of what Aletheian is singing, does it matter? 



> Oh and someone give El Mahdi exp for me since he quoted _the Crow_.



Covered.


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## Aeolius (Oct 9, 2010)

jonesy said:


> Xmas is a separate category for some reason.




Do NOT even go there.  Soon I will lose my precious 40s on 4 channel on XM, to be preempted for holiday tunes. I have a one week window, two at the most, of tolerance for listening to x-mas music, and they start playing the bloody stuff before Thanksgiving!

I like my share of Burl Ives as much as the next guy, but give it a rest.


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## kiznit (Oct 9, 2010)

grufflehead said:


> Tell you what I'd like to see: Lady Gaga *in* an Iron Maiden



How about Metallica? 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaVa78-03OQ]YouTube - Lady Gaga ft. Beyoncè Vs. Metallica - Telephone Vs. Enter Sandman (Djs From Mars Remix DL Link!)[/ame]


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## TarionzCousin (Oct 10, 2010)

jonesy said:


> I group my music based on the emotion they give me. I have: Rush



Rush has their own category? Cool.


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## jonesy (Oct 10, 2010)

TarionzCousin said:


> Rush has their own category? Cool.



Funny. But actually they're in the extra category 'unsorted music', which is currently the largest folder.


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## TarionzCousin (Oct 10, 2010)

jonesy said:


> I group my music based on the emotion they give me. I have: Rush



Rush has their own category? Cool.


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## megamania (Oct 10, 2010)

kiznit said:


> What kind of normal people do you know?
> 
> I know plenty of perfectly normal people who enjoy heavy metal wholeheartedly.
> 
> What if I enjoy heavy metal _and_ Lady Gaga? Is that abnormal?




I listen to a bit of everything myself.  Lady Gaga and Ke$ha lately but in the past week I have bought-

Motley Crue, U2, Katy Perry and Kiss.  Its all good.


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## megamania (Oct 10, 2010)

Umbran said:


> At one time, listening to Elvis was rebellious.
> 
> At one time, listening to the Beatles was rebellious.
> 
> ...





Rebellious or bad taste.... wear meat as a suit/ dress.   I like my steak and bacon but cooked... not worn.


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## megamania (Oct 10, 2010)

I still remember when Motley Crue was considered hard rock or heavy metal.  MNow its classic rock.....?!?


What my point is... time will tell if something is "rebellious".

Elvis was because he swung his hips.   Now if you don't you are not cool.

Two Live Crew was rebellious and vulgure.  Now most of the groups say the special words and speak of the subjects are considered main stream.

Madonna was once the sexy sl** od music.   Now her music is considered tame (at least by myself) compared to the Lady Gagas and Britneys of music today.


So.... in ten years we can look back and see whom is "rebellious" and whom set the new standard in music enterment.


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## jonesy (Oct 10, 2010)

megamania said:


> So.... in ten years we can look back and see whom is "rebellious" and whom set the new standard in music enterment.



Hmm. Assuming a successful rebellion, those two aren't mutually exclusive. Which might actually be counter to what some of the rebels would want. I mean, isn't counter-culture a type of culture too? How do you avoid classification without staying unknown?


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## Dark Jezter (Oct 10, 2010)

megamania said:


> I still remember when Motley Crue was considered hard rock or heavy metal.  MNow its classic rock.....?!?




In the radio broadcasting sense of the term, "classic rock" is usually defined as rock that is at least 20 years old.

Meaning that this year, Pantera's *Cowboys From Hell* album achieved classic rock status.


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## IronWolf (Oct 10, 2010)

Dark Jezter said:


> Meaning that this year, Pantera's *Cowboys From Hell* album achieved classic rock status.





Yeesh!  I'm old!


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## Umbran (Oct 10, 2010)

IronWolf said:


> The genre evolves over time and can still push the limits.  While Metallica is mainstream now, heavy metal evolved past that and beyond.  I am pretty certain there are still forms of heavy metal that are on the fringes of mainstream and pushing styles and such that are non-conformist.




Sure.  But if you tell a death metal or black metal fan that they're into heavy metal, and they'll laugh at you.  HM is the granddaddy of other metal forms, but the granddad's gotten a bit slow in his old age 

There's only so far you can push the definition of a genre, or you might as well say that Rhythm and Blues and Rockabilly (some of HM's ancestors) are still rebellious, too.


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## IronWolf (Oct 10, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Sure.  But if you tell a death metal or black metal fan that they're into heavy metal, and they'll laugh at you.  HM is the granddaddy of other metal forms, but the granddad's gotten a bit slow in his old age




Quite possibly.  Laughing or not does not change that they are each a subgenre of heavy metal.


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## Relique du Madde (Oct 10, 2010)

IronWolf said:


> Quite possibly.  Laughing or not does not change that they are each a subgenre of heavy metal.



They are but people get hung up on the labels.


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## Umbran (Oct 10, 2010)

IronWolf said:


> Quite possibly.  Laughing or not does not change that they are each a subgenre of heavy metal.




Yes, but the distinction is important.  If it weren't important, we'd have stopped at asking if Rock music were rebellious, as Heavy Metal is a subgenre of Rock.


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## IronWolf (Oct 10, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Yes, but the distinction is important.  If it weren't important, we'd have stopped at asking if Rock music were rebellious, as Heavy Metal is a subgenre of Rock.




But the question was about heavy metal and not rock.  My responses have indicated that I was wrapping up the subgenres with it, right or wrong it is the basis which I answered the question.

You have apparently answered the question for traditional heavy metal only which you have made clear.


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## Starman (Oct 10, 2010)

But I wouldn't say that rebelliousness is a part of the definition of rock. I think rock music and heavy metal has been rebellious and I think some subgenres of metal are rebellious today, but certainly what is rebellious today is different than what was rebellious twenty or thirty years ago. That doesn't change the music, though, or it's definition because rebellion doesn't _define_ rock/metal; it just occasionally _describes _it.


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## Viking Bastard (Oct 10, 2010)

Music isn't rebellious in it's self, it's the act of listening to it and/or performing it. This may seem like splitting hairs, but it's an important distinction.

As a teenager I liked metal/hardcore/etc. (Korn, Rammstein, Iron Maiden, blabbedybla) and that was mostly because I was rebelling against my peers, who most liked Hip Hop. In turn, they were listening to Hip Hop (Wu-Tang Clan etc.) because they were rebelling against the adults/society.

In hindsight, they were more rebellious than me, because Hip Hop was the new edgy thing. Metal was old. When I was a teen, nobody worried that metal was corrupting anyone, but boy did people fuss over the Clan. People who had listened to a lot of the same bands when they were teens as I did, or at least had long since gotten used to the idea of loud crass rock.

Nowadays all the fuss seems to be about pop music: Lady Gaga, Ke$ha, etc. All about the pornification of the youth.


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## TarionzCousin (Oct 10, 2010)

As the OP, I am rebelling against this thread.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 10, 2010)

There is but one true OP, all others are but pale imitations!


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Oct 10, 2010)

With one exception it's not the genre itself that constitutes rebellion - rebellion lies more in the motivation of the listener in choosing that music. If your parents can only tolerate Mozart you can rebel by listening to Miles Davis or Yanni. If your parents listen to classic rock you can rebel by listening to rap. If your parents sing along when you play Green Day you can rebel by listening to Tony Bennet.

Parents who grew up in, say, the 80's probably rebelled against THEIR parents by choosing to listen to metal. You think having kids NOW who listen to metal is going to constitute Rebellion? Ten years ago rebellion would have been listening to rap. While I usually object to rap on general principles of TASTE, choosing to listen to it hardly constitutes inherent rebellion anymore. It's too familiar.

The one genre that is SUPPOSED to inherently encompass rebellion is Punk - but even that is/was more a rebellion against established MUSICAL tastes as opposed to rebellion in general. That the fans of Punk were also motivated as Rebels isn't so much cause-effect as natural association.


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## ggroy (Oct 10, 2010)

Wonder what kids/teens would consider "rebellious" these days.

Most likely it isn't heavy metal or hip-hop.

For that mater, there is the scenario where "rebelliousness" may not even be in the form of musical tastes these days.  It could be something else entirely unrelated to music, such as the type of video games a person plays (for example).


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## Janx (Oct 10, 2010)

rebelliousness in teens is more tied to how they dress which ties to what they listen to.

Kids with their pants down are trying to be thugs.  They listen to rap.  Especially if they're not black or hispanic.

Kids wearing black are probably goths.  They might be more likely to listen to metal, techno, or emo.

Kids dressed like what might be considered normal, probably listen to pop.  They are probably the non-rebellious ones.

Kids with the messenger bags, bell bottoms, or thick rimmed plastic glasses are either emo or trendsters.

That's a sad way to stereotype things, but odds are good it's true.  It also doesn't mean these kids are bad, just that they identify with a certain group that isn't the norm.

Teenagers are the most conformist non-conformers.  meaning, that while they claim to seek individuality and such, their idea of it tends to involve conforming to some other group.


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## Turjan (Oct 10, 2010)

Nowadays, heavy metal is more or less a fashion statement among many. I would even put it post-nostalgia (Metallica covered that already a decade ago).

If making your father get dreamy eyes by making him think of the days of yore counts as rebellious, go ahead and vote yes. Otherwise, I have to give it a pass.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 10, 2010)

I don't know about YOUR families, but a CD by the Deftones makes mine wince...so yes, rebellious.


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## Hungry Like The Wolf (Oct 11, 2010)

Janx said:


> Kids dressed like what might be considered normal, probably listen to pop.  They are probably the non-rebellious ones.




In high school I was into the hardcore scene which always dressed normal. It all stemmed from Henry Rollins and his thoughts about anti-fashion (plain clothing as compared to brands). Looks are deceiving, I would disagree and say that teenage fashion is just accepted as being a "phase" and not really rebellious in the eyes of adults and the mainstream. 

As for the question...I wouldn't say it's terribly rebellious today. There is fifteen years between my brother and I, he grew up in the 80's where heavy metal was considered very rebellious.

At the time you were viewed very poorly but metal took off and these days, thanks to the internet, heavy metal is pretty mainstream.

Growing up in late 90's early 00's, metal always seemed apart of your musical diet. I know prom-queen types that got really into bands like Slipknot and Metallica. It was widely accepted along with rap and pop with popular crowds. 

Emo was the big rebellious genre at the time. The media hated it, parents were concerned about it and everybody hated you if you listened to it.

When I think of rebellion now...I think of genres like power violence, d-beat punk, noise etc. Genres that were created from counter-culture viewpoints and that were too extreme for the mainstream to incorporate.


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## CharlesRyan (Oct 11, 2010)

I was 11 when Kiss was hitting their heights with the Destroyer album. It was music so caustic that parents literally couldn't stand it.

Have you ever gone back and listened to Kiss? Rock and Roll All Night is practically elevator music these days.

Loud guitars, screaming vocals, demonic imagery, and even long tongues have been so subsumed into the broader culture that they simply aren't the ingredients of rebellion any more. You might run into the odd 13-year-old who gives it a try in his first experimentation with rebellion, but until he moves on to something a little more counter-cultural, he isn't quite there yet.


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## Turjan (Oct 11, 2010)

CharlesRyan said:


> I was 11 when Kiss was hitting their heights with the Destroyer album. It was music so caustic that parents literally couldn't stand it.



On the other hand, Kiss were pretty mainstream at that time. My parents liked them...

I had to resort to punk or some of David Bowie's stuff to get a reaction from them .


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## El Mahdi (Oct 11, 2010)

I guess "Rebellious" is a highly subjective and relative thing.  Depending upon when, where, and who.

At the time KISS was big, in some places it was no big deal.  In others, it was practically viewed as a manifestation of Satanism (kind of like D&D!).  Even if KISS seems like elevator music today, a 13 year old kid who makes it part of his identity today _is_ "Rebelling".  He's rebelling against the prevailing culture of the kids around him.

Also, _we_ might not view the music that kids listen to today as necessarily "Rebellious" or "counter culture"...but it may fill that role for them.

Teenage "Rebelliousness" isn't as much about actually _Rebelling_, as it's about establishing an Identity...an Identity that differentiates them from the rest of the world...and at the same time providing a sense of belonging (whether to a micro-culture, the culture of their peers, or the culture at large).  I know it sounds contradictory, but it's a stage that everyone goes through as they mature (just like we did).  But, I think that adults (us) understand this more today, and that's why we don't see the music the kids are listening to as "Rebellious".


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 11, 2010)

> I guess "Rebellious" is a highly subjective and relative thing. Depending upon when, where, and who.




Bingo!  You win a ceeeeeegar!



> Loud guitars, screaming vocals, demonic imagery, and even long tongues have been so subsumed into the broader culture that they simply aren't the ingredients of rebellion any more.




That depend upon the exact guitar/vocal/imagery combo you're talking about.  Sure, KISS is no longer threatening...but if you look at the bands that are doing the modern equivalent of what they did back then, you'll find plenty to drive away the mainstream public.

And you can do so with stuff deemed safe for broadcast on MTVs Headbanger's Ball, without delving into metal's darkest areas.  Meshuggah, anyone?

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=qc98u-eGzlc


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## the Jester (Oct 11, 2010)

Metal is only rebellious these days at the very fringe of it, things like the Norse neo-pagan church burning down black metal movement and stuff like that. Otherwise, it's the stuff your dad listens to.


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## Holy Bovine (Oct 11, 2010)

Nope.  Granted I haven't been listening to heavy metal for very long (about 3 years) and have heard songs from maybe a dozen groups but it doesn't really strike me as terribly rebellious.  Just cool music that I like listening to.


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## ggroy (Oct 12, 2010)

the Jester said:


> Metal is only rebellious these days at the very fringe of it, things like the Norse neo-pagan church burning down black metal movement and stuff like that. Otherwise, it's the stuff your dad listens to.




Even that sort of "black metal" stuff is passe these days in metal, considering it's been around for 15+ years.

One of my younger colleagues listens to that kind of black metal stuff, and has two teenage kids in high school today.  No idea what his kids think of it.


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## Doug McCrae (Oct 13, 2010)

Metal has been rebellious within the last twenty years. The Norwegian black metal of the early 90s was about as rebellious as a very white, very male, very heterosexual art form can be. If we change the statement to the last ten years, then I agree with The Shaman, metal is no longer rebellious.

Music isn't really controversial any more, I don't think it can be. Everything's too diverse now, too ironic and post-modern. There are no longer Sex Pistol or gangsta rap style moral panics. No one cares, it's just music. The hipster is the rightful king of the current age and he doesn't care about anything, it's all a pose. Same with Lady Gaga, she's the anti-metal, all surface, pose, irony. No authenticity, at least in her performances. The phonies have won, Holden!


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## TarionzCousin (Oct 15, 2010)

:sigh:  
The consensus has spoken. 



But I don't agree with the statement that "Because It's old, it's not rebellious any more." One does not necessarily follow the other. Rebellious doesn't mean "new." Something can be old and rebellious.

I can't think of the terms. I summon the Logic Mod, [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION], to assist me in elucidating* what I'm trying to say.




*Yeah, I can think of the word "elucidate" but other than that my brain is struggling.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 15, 2010)

Personally, I think this thread is a classic example of sampling error- I bet most of us are metal lovers, and some may be overestimating it's popularity.

Yes, it's showing up More and more in advertising/soundtracks for new products, but that's more a factor of targeting Genreration Y than general acceptance.  Try playing some Whitechapel at a social gathering that represents a good cross-section of society and you'll get a very different result than implied by this poll.


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## jonesy (Oct 16, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Personally, I think this thread is a classic example of sampling error- I bet most of us are metal lovers, and some may be overestimating it's popularity.



When everyone I know likes it it's hard not to. But that might be a sampling error too. Scandinavia has an overly large population of metal bands compared to the rest of the world.


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## Hungry Like The Wolf (Oct 17, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Yes, it's showing up More and more in advertising/soundtracks for new products, but that's more a factor of targeting Genreration Y than general acceptance.  Try playing some Whitechapel at a social gathering that represents a good cross-section of society and you'll get a very different result than implied by this poll.




Whitechapel aren't exactly metal though. They are apart of a genre that is the next logical step from bands like Earth Crisis. Just as they were the logical step from crossover bands like Cro-Mags and Sheer Terror.

Other than that, I see your point but I don't consider metalcore to be metal.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 17, 2010)

I do: like I said earlier, they can call themselve Gummi Bear Swing if they want, but musically speaking, technically speaking, metalcore (and other genres mentioned in this thread) are subgenres of metal.


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## Hungry Like The Wolf (Oct 17, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I do: like I said earlier, they can call themselve Gummi Bear Swing if they want, but musically speaking, technically speaking, metalcore (and other genres mentioned in this thread) are subgenres of metal.




Well, I guess we'll disagree then. I see a clear ideological and stylistic link to punk, more so than to metal.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 17, 2010)

Hungry Like The Wolf said:


> Well, I guess we'll disagree then. I see a clear ideological and stylistic link to punk, more so than to metal.




Yeah, let's- because while I see the link to punk, I think the link to metal is clearer...

Besides, punk & metal have been cross-pollenating for decades.


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## El Mahdi (Oct 17, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> ...Besides, punk & metal have been cross-pollenating for decades.




Yup! And they had an illegitimate child...


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## TarionzCousin (Oct 18, 2010)

El Mahdi said:


> Yup! And they had an illegitimate child...



According to this poll, this guy is at best "barely rebellious." Sex, drugs, prosthetic limbs, and rock and roll, baby. Oh, and lots of drugs, because nothing says "Establishment" like a heavy cocaine addiction.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 18, 2010)

Betcha he's a staunch Republican...

And when he's old enough to run for Prez, he'll use his own music for his campaign with some lyrical revisions...

"Conservative people! Conservative people!
(Ahhhhh!)
Conservative people! Conservative people!
(Ahhhhh!)..."


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## Remus Lupin (Oct 18, 2010)

Now now, don't go spoiling our fun with politics!


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## jonesy (Oct 18, 2010)

I once had a discussion with a guy from a metal magazine about Mansion and he described him as goth sensationalist industrial rock.

Whatever that is supposed to be.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 18, 2010)

It's in the bins next to Gummi Bear Swing, but has more of a Rasta Death Linguini influence to it.

Edit: sorry, that's Death Linguini Rasta- completely different genre.


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## jonesy (Oct 18, 2010)

Rasta is more punk than death. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XZjvXLQSP0]YouTube - Bob Marley Exodus Hardcore/Punk/Metal Stoney Eye Studios Remix[/ame]


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## Umbran (Oct 18, 2010)

TarionzCousin said:


> But I don't agree with the statement that "Because It's old, it's not rebellious any more." One does not necessarily follow the other. Rebellious doesn't mean "new." Something can be old and rebellious.
> 
> I can't think of the terms. I summon the Logic Mod, [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION], to assist me in elucidating* what I'm trying to say.




Sorry it took so long, but I was floating around on a boat in the Caribbean...

You're right that one does not necessarily follow the other.  But on the other hand, there's some correlation.  Rebellion is a refusal to obey, or follow orders.  In the world of music, that's typically taken to be a refusal so follow current social or musical norms.

As things age, they tend to get absorbed into the standard cultural norms.  If that happens to your Old Thing, then I'm sorry, but your old thing is no longer rebellious.   Or, as the thing ages, the authority or norm that it was rebelling against changes, and there's nothing to rebel against.

But, on occasion, you can have an old thing that doesn't fit the current norms, and then it can be rebellious.  Adoption of that which is "retro" can be a rebellion, for example.

I personally don't think that's the position Heavy Metal is in, though.  Musically, its conventions have been widely adopted by other genres.  And what it stood for socially (if anything) has become more the norm as well - it is no longer "bucking the system" as it were.


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## El Mahdi (Oct 18, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Sorry it took so long, but I was floating around on a boat in the Caribbean...




Was that for real, or just the beginning of a Pirate RPG campaign...?


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## Umbran (Oct 18, 2010)

El Mahdi said:


> Was that for real, or just the beginning of a Pirate RPG campaign...?




For real.  On vacation.  No pirates to be seen (thank goodness).


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 18, 2010)

> Musically, its conventions have been widely adopted by other genres.



As a musician, i can't agree with this.

The levels of guitar distortion that are present in other genres- with the exceptions of hard rock, punk and heavier industrial subgenres- would be entry level at best for acceptability in metal.  Guitarists in other genres don't even touch the pedals and amps that are the foundation for achieving that in metal.

The emphasis on minor chords, dissonance, and (in many metal genres) mastery & mixing of a host of scale types are absent in mainstream music.

The nature of metal vocals- be they the extreme high wails or the "cookie monster" growls so en vogue today- are also virtually unique to the genre.

Neither the dirgelike pace nor the blazing speed of drone, stoner, thrash, speed, etc. are popular anywhere else but in metal.
_
At best_, other genres have dipped their toes in the waters that metal swims in.


> And what it stood for socially (if anything) has become more the norm as well - it is no longer "bucking the system" as it were.



Metal doesn't stand for one thing, its a conglomeration of many things.

Going from the late 1960s on to today, we find metal lyrics explicitly endorsing Satan, supernatural horror, excessive alcohol or drug consumption, brutal thuggery, violence against women, murder (esp. of authority figures), riots, anarchy (yes, just like the punks), anti-establishment social activism, aggressive ecoterrorism, sex outside of marriage, paganism and/or overt anti-Christianity and so on and so forth.  Metal's stand, as it were, is as amorphous as James Dean's: 

Q: "What are you rebelling against?"
JD: "Whatta ya got?"  

As Perry Farell pointed out during the first Lollapalooza tour, if anything, metal and rap are the closest, lyrically speaking.  You won't find any genre besides rap or punk that encompasses so many anti-mainstream messages as metal.

That stuff just don't play in Peoria.  You won't hear any of that in the Grand Ole Opry.


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## Aeolius (Oct 18, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> ...the "cookie monster" growls so en vogue today- are also virtually unique to the genre.



When you say "cookie monster growls", I think of the King of the Groaners - Mahlathini:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8PZImiMpgo]YouTube - South Africa - Mahlathini & Mahotella Queens - Thokozile[/ame]


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## Umbran (Oct 18, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> As a musician, i can't agree with this.




Thus are genre discussions born. 



> The levels of guitar distortion that are present in other genres- with the exceptions of hard rock, punk and heavier industrial subgenres-




"Nobody has adopted this, except for all those that have adopted it."  Those exceptiosn are kind of the point.  Hard Rock and punk are hardly tiny corners of music nobody listens to.  

We could nitpick points, but I think it comes down to this:



> _
> At best_, other genres have dipped their toes in the waters that metal swims in.




Yes, but that's okay.  The others have dipped their toes in, enough so that _nobody is really surprised_ by those features any more.  If it isn't surprising, if others accept it as okay, rather than on offense, it really isn't rebellion.  When everyone else stop saying, "What the hell is that?!?" and start saying, "Yeah, dude, that's cool," it stops being rebellion, and starts begin part of the establishment.




> Metal doesn't stand for one thing, its a conglomeration of many things.




Same goes for every genre.  



> Going from the late 1960s on to today, we find metal lyrics explicitly endorsing Satan, supernatural horror, excessive alcohol or drug consumption, brutal thuggery, violence against women, murder (esp. of authority figures), riots, anarchy (yes, just like the punks), anti-establishment social activism, aggressive ecoterrorism, sex outside of marriage, paganism and/or overt anti-Christianity and so on and so forth.




...



> As Perry Farell pointed out during the first Lollapalooza tour, if anything, metal and rap are the closest, lyrically speaking.  You won't find any genre besides rap or punk that encompasses so many anti-mainstream messages as metal.




I am not sure it is sufficient to have an anti-mainstream message, though.  Now we need to consider the culture around the music.  Rap music talks the same talk, and it has people who walk the walk.  Metal, these days?  Not in the US.  



> You won't hear any of that in the Grand Ole Opry.




So?  You won't hear Edvard Grieg in the Grand Ole Opry either, but that doesn't make Classical "rebellious".  Not being played in a different genre-specific venue is not an indicator of rebelliousness.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 18, 2010)

Umbran said:


> "Nobody has adopted this, except for all those that have adopted it."  Those exceptiosn are kind of the point.  Hard Rock and punk are hardly tiny corners of music nobody listens to.




I beg to differ: the exceptions are telling.  Hard rock that is within the mainstream (IOW, getting actual play on radio & TV) tends to be almost purely heavy blues.  The few rock guitarists who actually venture into metal territory do so almost exclusively in their solos, not within the body of the rest of the song.

Punk is still a fairly niche genre, with true (new) punk bands struggling to sell Gold.  Sure, pop-Punk like Green Day has done well- often charting on Billboard and hitting Platinum, but I don't know a single true punk who considers Green Day and their ilk to be representative of Punk as a whole.  As for the older punk bands hitting Gold or Platinum?  Well, honestly, it took decades for them to do so.  That's hardly mainstream- that's old punks replacing worn out tapes & LPs; that's old punks raising their kids on the real thing.



> The others have dipped their toes in, enough so that _nobody is really surprised_ by those features any more.




So they're not surprised by the diluted stuff- they'd still choke on the real thing.

To make a comparison, this is like saying Everclear is a soft drink because you can dilute it to the point that it doesn't cause your eyes to pop out and your throat to feel like you just swallowed an acetylene torch.  Everclear w/soda water being a mild thrill doesn't mean that the pure stuff isn't damn near poison.



> Now we need to consider the culture around the music.  Rap music talks the same talk, and it has people who walk the walk.  Metal, these days?  Not in the US.




As in, we know that there are people in rap who have done drugs and committed crimes in the past much as they sing about today?

We have that in metal, even in the purely US bands.

As in there are people in rap experiencing repercussions for doing what they're singing about?  IOW, gun crimes, drug crimes, sex crimes and other anti-societal acts?

Again, we have that in metal as well.  Lots of drug ODs in the past decade, even among the youngsters.  A few homicides, too.

Hell, I've been on tour busses and been offered the proverbial mound 'o' white powder & a girl for the hour.  (Yes, I did decline.)

The difference is mainly that its the _high-profile_ rappers and the _low profile_ metal bands that are skirmishing with the law.  Which means the rappers make national news, while the dramas of the metalheads are usually only found in your local police blotters or in media outlets devoted to rock & metal.


> So?  You won't hear Edvard Grieg in the Grand Ole Opry either, but that doesn't make Classical "rebellious".  Not being played in a different genre-specific venue is not an indicator of rebelliousness.




My point was about popularity & acceptance within society, not locale- the GOO being an example of a shrine to mainstream music.  Country as a genre still sells _big_.  A top-notch solo C&W artist can sell huge numbers of tickets across the USA; ditto for a great tour package with a solid cross-section of C&W artists (including ones you've never heard of).

Big metal shows are largely found in countries like Great Britain and Brazil- in the US, there hasn't been but one majorly successful multi-act metal tour for a decade or so- Ozzy's Ozzfest- and it tends to draw the big, mainstream metal names only...big enough to have name recognition outside of their genre.

I'm in D/FW, Texas.  We love rock & metal...but not like we used to.

We _used _to have the Texas Jam every year; its dead.  Judas Priest's tour last year- which, among other things, presented the entirety of British Steel played live- played our Nokia Center, not a stadium.  Ditto for a multi-band metal tour that passed through here last year.

We had a couple of dozen nightclubs catering to the metal scene, and we had a local publication- Harder Beat- which actually had international circulation.  HB is a year gone, and almost all of the metal clubs have been replaced by strip joints and Mexican dance halls.


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## ggroy (Oct 19, 2010)

Umbran said:


> I am not sure it is sufficient to have an anti-mainstream message, though.  Now we need to consider the culture around the music.  Rap music talks the same talk, and it has people who walk the walk.  Metal, these days?  Not in the US.




I can't think of many metal bands that actually walk the walk.

The only ones I can think of offhand in recent memory (ie. 15+ years ago), were some of those Norwegian black metal bands that were doing stuff like burning down churches back in the 1990's.


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## Umbran (Oct 19, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> So they're not surprised by the diluted stuff- they'd still choke on the real thing.




I think, maybe, we are now getting to the point.



> To make a comparison, this is like saying Everclear is a soft drink because you can dilute it to the point that it doesn't cause your eyes to pop out and your throat to feel like you just swallowed an acetylene torch.




No.  And I think this may be where we might differ in how we view rebellion.  You keep noting things that make it it's own genre - but being its own genre isn't enough.  Everclear is harsh stuff, and that certainly differentiates it from other things on the market.  Most won't drink it straight.  But that doesn't make it rebellious.  

At one time, wearing a T-shirt of a Heavy Metal band was notable - in schools it was almost like wearing black combat fatigues and a trench coat is viewed today - it denoted danger.  Parents sometimes blamed bad things that happened to their kids on the music.  But that is no longer true.  You can wear the shirts now, and people think you're just being retro.  Heavy Metal tunes are turning up on the sound tracks of prime-time TV shows.  I mean, honestly - Ozzy Ozbourne's wife is now the _*sweet and nice*_ judge on "America's Got Talent".  How rebellious can his type of music be?

It may be thought of by some as noise, rather than music, but it no longer shocks anyone.  It isn't much of a rebellion if the establishment looks at it, shrugs, and thinks, "Meh."


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 19, 2010)

Umbran said:


> No.  And I think this may be where we might differ in how we view rebellion.  You keep noting things that make it it's own genre - but being its own genre isn't enough.  Everclear is harsh stuff, and that certainly differentiates it from other things on the market.  Most won't drink it straight.  But that doesn't make it rebellious.




The harshness of straight Everclear is a metaphor for the rebellion of non-diluted metal.

Diluted, Everclear can punch up a lot of drinks potency.  That's why its done. 

Diluted, metal tropes can add a hint of danger and edginess to music otherwise completely safe and mainstream.  That's why its done.

But in their pure forms, both are dangerous. Neither will be welcomed or ignored when unleashed in a typical, mainstream social gathering, and even less so the further up the social scale you go.



> At one time, wearing a T-shirt of a Heavy Metal band was notable - in schools it was almost like wearing black combat fatigues and a trench coat is viewed today - it denoted danger.  Parents sometimes blamed bad things that happened to their kids on the music.  But that is no longer true.  You can wear the shirts now, and people think you're just being retro.  Heavy Metal tunes are turning up on the sound tracks of prime-time TV shows.  I mean, honestly - Ozzy Ozbourne's wife is now the _*sweet and nice*_ judge on "America's Got Talent".  How rebellious can his type of music be?




By that standard, _no _musical genre or its practitioners is rebellious.  People once feared Public Enemy and TuPac, but rap has its own music TV channels and shows now, and when I pick up my 16 year old cousin at his nice suburban school, kids of all colors are wearing t-shirts adorned with rappers of all kinds.*

I contend, however, that just because society may not perceive the danger or recognize the rebellion, it does not follow that the danger and rebellion are absent.

A few years ago, Luda got axed from a Pepsi ad campaign because he smoked pot.  He and his fans pointed out that Ozzy did that- and much worse- and his ad remained on the air.

The reason is that 1) Luda is black, Ozzy isn't 2) Luda got caught with drugs more recently, whereas Ozzy's MJ/Coke/Whiskey/Urine fueled madness is largely behind him 3) Luda is unapologetic, Ozzy's been through multiple rehabs and 4) Ozzy's career is so long, he's perceived as a non-threatening mumbling old man who once called Pat Boone his best neighbor ever.

Of note, though, since that point, most major companies have been avoiding both metalheads and rappers in their ad campaigns.



> It may be thought of by some as noise, rather than music, but it no longer shocks anyone.  It isn't much of a rebellion if the establishment looks at it, shrugs, and thinks, "Meh."




It no longer shocks in the diluted form, and the real thing is dismissed as noise because many find it unintelligible.**

Give someone who dismisses the full-strength stuff as mere noise the lyrics in print form and you'll see a change.  Again, just because you don't recognize the rebellion doesn't mean it isn't there.  Its just well disguised.

Besides, if we're looking at the rebelliousness of metal within society, we should probably look at it in more societies than the USA or Great Britain.  Doing a quick search of the web, I found stories of metal bands and fans being arrested in a variety of countries, some of which might surprise you (like Russia).

That we in the USA and other countries may not realize its rebellious nature, other governments and societies are not so lassaiz faire about metal's message(s).


*  It occurs to me, though, that while I've seen dozens of rapper T-shirts in my church (in suburban Texas), metal band shirts are virtually unseen.  Potheads with a gun possession arrest are more acceptable in that environs than any iconic metal mascot (like Eddie), pentagrams, piles of dead bodies, or band names in "horror fonts".


** Case in point: I often have the subtitles on my TV due to my practicing guitar with my headphones on through a Korg PX4 while I watch the news or something my DVR has taped, especially late at night.  During one such session, my DVR kicked over to Headbanger's Ball (because both tuners were recording).  Towards the end of my practice, a band- I can't recall which one- sang lyrics full of bringing down society in the name of service to otherworldly supernatural beings, worshipping corruption and entropy, etc.  Curious, I later watched the same video sans my headphones.  Near as I could tell, the lyrics actually sung were _*"groooaaaaarraaahhrrrrr"*_ repeated at high volumes and low pitch.  Often, I couldn't tell when one word ended and another began due to nearly imperceptible (or possibly entirely absent) syllable breaks.  Were they there?  Did he actually sing those words I read?  I have no idea.  Even when watching the video a third time with the subtitles back on, I couldn't distinguish most of the lyrics.

But if they were sung, if those words were meant, then the rebellion was clearly present, and I would not have known but for my unusual practicing methods.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 19, 2010)

ggroy said:


> I can't think of many metal bands that actually walk the walk.
> 
> The only ones I can think of offhand in recent memory (ie. 15+ years ago), were some of those Norwegian black metal bands that were doing stuff like burning down churches back in the 1990's.




Death Metal Singer Arrested For NYC’s Cat Woman Robberies | Crawdaddy!

Motley Crue Singer Arrested For DUI - in Metal News ( Metal Underground.com )

The Cristina Balzano Alleged Heavy Metal Attempted Murder | TwentyFourBit

Slipknot Bassist Death Ruled An Overdose - 23 Jun 2010 | Clash Music Latest Breaking Music News

That's just what I found in a few minutes.  Go looking back over the past decade and you'll find just as many ODs and arrests among the metal set as any other "rebellious" music genre.


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## Hungry Like The Wolf (Oct 19, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Yeah, let's- because while I see the link to punk, I think the link to metal is clearer...
> 
> Besides, punk & metal have been cross-pollenating for decades.




I agree, they've been cross-pollinating for so long that metalcore has kind of it's own thing now, not quite punk, not quite metal.

My point was, these types of bands (metalcore/deathcore/whatevercore) usually play shows along side punk and hardcore bands and promote punk infused ideologies like veganism or straight edge.

One of the biggest names in the genre now (Parkway Drive) are punks. They now play metal infused punk but ideologically and stylistically they are still the same kids who grew up on punk and hardcore.

So, while the metal is there musically it's not as big as the punk influence which it there musically and otherwise.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 19, 2010)

I don't know if you're old enough to remember, but the first band that truly bridged the gap between punk & metal, the first to have it's patches adorn the denim of both communities in visible numbers was Mötörhead.


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## danbuter1 (Oct 26, 2010)

It used to be. Now it's mainstream. Those of us who were kids when Judas Priest and Iron Maiden were big are now in our 30's and 40's. Kinda hard to be rebellious if old people like you.


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## Nifft (Oct 26, 2010)

"Rebellion" depends entirely on context.

Is it rebellious to play heavy metal in a shopping mall? Perhaps.

Is it rebellious to play heavy metal in a motorcycle repair shop? Unlikely.

Cheers, -- N


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## El Mahdi (Oct 26, 2010)

Nifft;5359589...Is it rebellious to play heavy metal in a motorcycle repair shop? Unlikely...[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> It is if it's a Vespa repair shop.


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## ggroy (Oct 27, 2010)

Nifft said:


> "Rebellion" depends entirely on context.
> 
> Is it rebellious to play heavy metal in a shopping mall? Perhaps.




I've heard Metallica's "The Unforgiven" being played as background music at a shopping mall before.


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## jonesy (Oct 27, 2010)

El Mahdi said:


> It is if it's a Vespa repair shop.



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EYnQGk235A]YouTube - 3° vespa club aviano[/ame]
Just the beginning though. =)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 27, 2010)

> I've heard Metallica's "The Unforgiven" being played as background music at a shopping mall before.




I once heard gangsta rap being played as "hold music" on a call I made to a CPA's office (a very, very Caucasian one at that).  I asked them about it...they didn't know: they paid a service to set up their system.  And judging by the tone of the person to whom I was talking, that was going to change muy rapido.  From what I understand, the tech who did the actual setup was displeased with one of their CPAs...it was sabotage.

Long story short, the mall may not have chosen that tune deliberately.

OTOH, they may have different background music depending upon their predicted demographics of mall patrons at a given time of day.


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## ggroy (Oct 27, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Long story short, the mall may not have chosen that tune deliberately.
> 
> OTOH, they may have different background music depending upon their predicted demographics of mall patrons at a given time of day.




Perhaps these days something like "The Unforgiven" wouldn't be completely out of place as background music at a shopping mall, at certain times during the day.

I would be more surprised if they played anything from Metallica's "Kill 'Em All" as background music at a shopping mall.


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## Diamond Cross (Oct 28, 2010)

Hmmmm....

Metagaga?

Oh, and rebelliousness still means liking Star Trek and Science Fiction when everybody else likes Cowboys and Injuns and Cops and Robbers shows.


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