# Doctor Who s8e4: "Listen"; best ep of the year so far!



## Morrus (Sep 13, 2014)

Absolutely loved it! It left stuff unanswered - we never did find out who was under the sheet or who opened the airlock - but it was creepy and clever. 

Is Time Lord as a qualification new? I always thought it was a race. Maybe I'm forgetting stuff.

Capaldi's best performance yet. He's starting to settle in. 

Why was Clara so secretive abut Danny? He was clearly relevant to the mystery, but she pretended she didn't know of him, even to the Doctor. Why?

Doctor and chalk/blackboard again. This is a thing with him.


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## MarkB (Sep 13, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Is Time Lord as a qualification new? I always thought it was a race. Maybe I'm forgetting stuff.




I think it does come up in the Fourth Doctor story _The Invasion of Time_ that there are Gallifreyans who are not Time Lords.


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## delericho (Sep 13, 2014)

Yep, thoroughly enjoyed tonight's episode.


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## Crothian (Sep 14, 2014)

It was atmospheric and creepy and that was great. The idea of the creature was also neat.


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## Morrus (Sep 14, 2014)

One thought. Gallifrey is currently inaccessible, even to a TARDIS. That barn therefore was not on Gallifrey, since Clara flew the TARDIS there.

I assumed the barn was on Gallifrey in the 50th anniversary episode. But clearly it's not. But that raises a other fact: the Doctor did not grow up on Gallifrey.

That's new. And interesting.


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## Raunalyn (Sep 14, 2014)

Extremely well done episode, which is welcome after the lackluster first 3 episodes.


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## Raunalyn (Sep 14, 2014)

Morrus said:


> One thought. Gallifrey is currently inaccessible, even to a TARDIS. That barn therefore was not on Gallifrey, since Clara flew the TARDIS there.
> 
> I assumed the barn was on Gallifrey in the 50th anniversary episode. But clearly it's not. But that raises a other fact: the Doctor did not grow up on Gallifrey.
> 
> That's new. And interesting.




I caught that, too. I was wondering how she was able to get the TARDIS to Gallifrey if it was inaccessible. Your explanation makes perfect sense.


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## Morrus (Sep 14, 2014)

Yikes. Ratings are dropping. Just 4.8 million on the overnights. That's getting dangerously low. Makes me worry for the future of the show.


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## Raunalyn (Sep 14, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Yikes. Ratings are dropping. Just 4.8 million on the overnights. That's getting dangerously low. Makes me worry for the future of the show.




Worries me too. Not surprising with the weak first 3 episodes, but if the next episodes are as good as last night's, I think the ratings will pick pack up.


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## trappedslider (Sep 14, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Yikes. Ratings are dropping. Just 4.8 million on the overnights. That's getting dangerously low. Makes me worry for the future of the show.




Is that just the UK numbers or world wide?

EDIT: Also the whole not supposed to go to the end of the universe seems to be more of a guide line than an actual rule.....The Tardis has gone twice based on just Nu-Who episodes


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## Morrus (Sep 14, 2014)

trappedslider said:


> Is that just the UK numbers or world wide?




UK. We don't care who watches it in random foreign countries. The BBC's scheduling budget is dependent on domestic audiences, not foreigners.


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## MarkB (Sep 14, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Why was Clara so secretive abut Danny? He was clearly relevant to the mystery, but she pretended she didn't know of him, even to the Doctor. Why?




It was fairly apparent that she really didn't want to get into the whole timey-wimey side of her life on a first date. If she'd told the Doctor about Danny, there'd be no chance of keeping him out of things.

One thing worth mentioning is that, after last season's "Hide", this is the second recent episode to feature pioneering human time-travel experiments, and the second time that not much is made of them, save that something went awry, and the Doctor returned the chrononaut to their home time.

I'm starting to wonder whether the lack of development of these stories is deliberate - whether they're the first hints of a larger storyline we'll be seeing later.


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## The_Silversword (Sep 15, 2014)

OK now this episode was a little more to my liking, didnt seem nearly as goofy as the last one, but still had its funny moments, nicely done. It was also interesting to see the Doctor checking something out cause he wanted to, seems like usually hes just dropped in the middle of robots trying to take over the earth or whatever, so it was an interesting change of pace, all in all i liked, but, as Morrus already pointed out it left a lot of unanswered questions, Like how did Orson Pink end up with the toy soldier if Clara gave it to the Doctor as a boy? Orson said it had been in his family, maybe the Doctor and Mr. Pink are related!?


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## MarkB (Sep 15, 2014)

Morrus said:


> One thought. Gallifrey is currently inaccessible, even to a TARDIS. That barn therefore was not on Gallifrey, since Clara flew the TARDIS there.
> 
> I assumed the barn was on Gallifrey in the 50th anniversary episode. But clearly it's not. But that raises a other fact: the Doctor did not grow up on Gallifrey.
> 
> That's new. And interesting.




That's certainly a strong possibility, with some interesting implications.

Another possibility, with a different set of implications, is that Clara is capable of psychically piloting the TARDIS through time-locks.



The_Silversword said:


> OK now this episode was a little more to my liking, didnt seem nearly as goofy as the last one, but still had its funny moments, nicely done. It was also interesting to see the Doctor checking something out cause he wanted to, seems like usually hes just dropped in the middle of robots trying to take over the earth or whatever, so it was an interesting change of pace, all in all i liked, but, as Morrus already pointed out it left a lot of unanswered questions, Like how did Orson Pink end up with the toy soldier if Clara gave it to the Doctor as a boy? Orson said it had been in his family, maybe the Doctor and Mr. Pink are related!?




I believe the sequence was that Danny kept the toy and passed it on as a good-luck charm / heirloom, down through a few generations to his time-travelling descendant, who either gave it to Clara or left it in the TARDIS, and she passed it on to the Doctor.


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## Morrus (Sep 15, 2014)

MarkB said:


> Another possibility, with a different set of implications, is that Clara is capable of psychically piloting the TARDIS through time-locks.




Could be. Though she knows he wants to find Gallifrey. If she found it and is now not telling him, that doesn't reflect well on her at all.


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## MarkB (Sep 15, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Could be. Though she knows he wants to find Gallifrey. If she found it and is now not telling him, that doesn't reflect well on her at all.




I think the implication would be that she found a way to the Gallifrey of the past, still inside its time-lock, rather than the post-Time-of-the-Doctor Gallifrey that's locked in another universe.

And she _does_ know how badly he wants to find Gallifrey - badly enough that he might ignore all the terrible implications of crossing his own childhood timestream, and end up doing something really unwise. It wouldn't be the first time she's acted to protect him from himself.


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## delericho (Sep 15, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Yikes. Ratings are dropping. Just 4.8 million on the overnights. That's getting dangerously low. Makes me worry for the future of the show.




Yeah, that doesn't look good. Though, given past performance, the BBC might try replacing the showrunner and star before wielding the axe right away. I guess it depends on how DW-friendly the guys at the top are.



Morrus said:


> UK. We don't care who watches it in random foreign countries. The BBC's scheduling budget is dependent on domestic audiences, not foreigners.




Which is odd, given that's it's a show that they do sell worldwide (and on DVD and other formats) rather profitably. You'd think they'd at least factor that in to their calculations. Especially since they don't actually need to go chasing ratings, what with the license fee.



Morrus said:


> Could be. Though she knows he wants to find Gallifrey. If she found it and is now not telling him, that doesn't reflect well on her at all.




It's possible that ignorance is a factor - she didn't know flying through a Time Lock should be impossible, or she didn't know they were going to Gallifrey. Once the Doctor tells her, she might find she can't do it any more.

Or that might be a plot-point later in the series. Or it could be because some idiot turned the safety circuits off. Or it could, of course, be another instance with them playing fast and loose with the rules - it's not like they don't have some form on that one!


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## The_Silversword (Sep 15, 2014)

*Re:The Barn*

As to the barn, I never got the impression that it was on Gallifrey. The Doctor, or War Doctor or whatever, made it a point to park the T.A.R.D.I.S. well away so 'she' wouldnt know what he was doing, so it kinda makes sense that he woulda picked a secluded place to frag all of Gallifrey and the Daleks, so someplace on Gallifrey just doesnt seem to fit. But, I could be wrong, I'm hoping they explore this a little more in upcoming episodes, and as to why he has a familiar face, and how he apparently regenerates into Tom Baker again.


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## Morrus (Sep 15, 2014)

MarkB said:


> I think the implication would be that she found a way to the Gallifrey of the past, still inside its time-lock, rather than the post-Time-of-the-Doctor Gallifrey that's locked in another universe.
> 
> And she _does_ know how badly he wants to find Gallifrey - badly enough that he might ignore all the terrible implications of crossing his own childhood timestream, and end up doing something really unwise. It wouldn't be the first time she's acted to protect him from himself.




I guess it's possible.  It doesn't sound likely, though; especially when compared to the much simpler idea that the barn simply isn't on Gallifrey.


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## Elven (Sep 15, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Absolutely loved it! It left stuff unanswered - we never did find out who was under the sheet or who opened the airlock - but it was creepy and clever.
> 
> Is Time Lord as a qualification new? I always thought it was a race. Maybe I'm forgetting stuff.
> 
> ...





Hey, I'm new here 

A quick post,

Yes most Gallifriyans are not timelords, (they need to go through the academy (start at the age 0f 8) and have a lot of very tough training and education before being considered a timelord, most don't become timelords,)

Capaldi does look more settled in, in this story, but i thought the story was weak (you need to bear in mind this is for family viewing, and the loose structure of this EP may be confusing to the younger viewers)


Btw: Go buy a copy of The Time Traveller's Companion (for the Doctor Who AiTaS, (rpg))


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## Elven (Sep 15, 2014)

The_Silversword said:


> As to the barn, I never got the impression that it was on Gallifrey. The Doctor, or War Doctor or whatever, made it a point to park the T.A.R.D.I.S. well away so 'she' wouldnt know what he was doing, so it kinda makes sense that he woulda picked a secluded place to frag all of Gallifrey and the Daleks, so someplace on Gallifrey just doesnt seem to fit. But, I could be wrong, I'm hoping they explore this a little more in upcoming episodes, and as to why he has a familiar face, and how he apparently regenerates into Tom Baker again.




It is possible the "barn" may have not been on Gallifrey (but i think it was)
Gallifreyan children are brought up by their extended family prior to the age of eight, so he could have been anywhere before then,


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## Elven (Sep 15, 2014)

Morrus said:


> One thought. Gallifrey is currently inaccessible, even to a TARDIS. That barn therefore was not on Gallifrey, since Clara flew the TARDIS there.
> 
> I assumed the barn was on Gallifrey in the 50th anniversary episode. But clearly it's not. But that raises a other fact: the Doctor did not grow up on Gallifrey.
> 
> That's new. And interesting.




Both could be true,
But Gallifrey is only "locked" at the point forward from when it became "locked", not retroactively (which would mean rewriting a lot of past history)
So she could visit the Gallifrey of the past,


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## Morrus (Sep 15, 2014)

Elven said:


> Both could be true,
> But Gallifrey is only "locked" at the point forward from when it became "locked", not retroactively (which would mean rewriting a lot of past history)
> So she could visit the Gallifrey of the past,




That's certainly a new interpretation. We're talking a civilization of time travellers locked in an eternal time war with another time travelling civilization which spanned all of time and space. 

If you could just pop back to "before" it was locked, it kinda defeats the point. Plus somebody would have thought of that by now.


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## Elven (Sep 15, 2014)

Morrus said:


> That's certainly a new interpretation. We're talking a civilization of time travellers locked in an eternal time war with another time travelling civilization which spanned all of time and space.
> 
> If you could just pop back to "before" it was locked, it kinda defeats the point. Plus somebody would have thought of that by now.




Yeah, you would think but there is always a McGuffin to stop it, (think about all the time prior to the war that the Doctor has been forced to return or visit  Gallifrey, (no time war there...)


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## Morrus (Sep 15, 2014)

Elven said:


> Yeah, you would think but there is always a McGuffin to stop it, (think about all the time prior to the war that the Doctor has been forced to return or visit  Gallifrey, (no time war there...)




There isn't a tie prior to the war. It's a time war! The only 'prior' is our viewing history, as we the viewers are outside the universe depicted. We remember a time prior to when the BBC scriptwriters produced stories about the time war, but the inhabitants of the universe don't. They've made it pretty clear repeatedly that the time lock was for all of time. Otherwise it's not a time lock, it's just a ... lock.


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## Elven (Sep 15, 2014)

Morrus said:


> There isn't a tie prior to the war. It's a time war! The only 'prior' is our viewing history, as we the viewers are outside the universe depicted. We remember a time prior to when the BBC scriptwriters produced stories about the time war, but the inhabitants of the universe don't. They've made it pretty clear repeatedly that the time lock was for all of time. Otherwise it's not a time lock, it's just a ... lock.




The TARDIS has certain restrictions to stop it from landing and overlapping its own historical footprint,

But I'm not sure you have it right, remember how all the Doctors came back to save Gallifray? 
How the war doctor stole the weapon, and the only way they could save Gallifray was to relocate it (not time lock it away from everyone, bear in mind that for Gallifray to grow in to a time traveling race they would need to get out and about to explore ect, you can't just seal it away in a Brigadoon fashion, no the past need to remain for their future to exist, you can't go creating paradoxes, its like going back and killing your granddad before your mother was born, where would you be then?)

A McGuffin (aka "The Excuse") is the only way around many of the paradoxes in the show,

Or any old Dalek or cyberman could just go back to the beginning of time, kill everyone and take their stuff,

But that doesn't happen, why?
MCGUFFIN
(in this case some sort of pseudo scientific technobabble)


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## Nellisir (Sep 15, 2014)

Definitely the best episode of the season so far, and one of the best in awhile. I much prefer Capaldi to whatisface, fezhead.
Thoughts as I watched the episode:

Oh look. Another creepy childhood episode. Are you my mummy? Don't blink. Silence.
Does this tie into the Silence? It'll be pretty bloody stupid if there are two hiding races following us. Do they have conferences?
It doesn't seem like it ties in. Half of the crap in this show never makes the leap to connect with anything that it ought to.
Danny seems awful sensitive. I hope he's seeing a shrink.
Clara and the Doctor are getting on as equals much more than I can remember seeing ever before with a Doctor and a companion. That's awesome.
It's also awesome that Clara gets to have a life AND go adventuring while she's nabbing supplies from the supply closet.
It'd be nice if a guy was introduced and DIDN'T become the boyfriend of the companion.
Clara is much better with people than the doctor is. Guess that's what comes of being the Carer.
F*ck me, it comes 'round and makes sense!  No tie to the Silence necessary!  Glory be, hallelujah!
She should've told him he could be anything he wanted, even a doctor. That would've been a lovely seed.
I'll bet dollars we see that toy soldier again.

Basically: 

I love that Clara pushes back against the Doctor and takes charge. I LOVE seeing her behave as an adult, not some addle-pated child-woman (coughPondcough)
I love that the story doesn't invoke another mystery race. Enough already. The Who-verse has tons of breadth, but it often lacks depth as things are introduced, used for a season, and discarded, never to be referenced again.
I'm fine with the mystery of what's under the blanket. maybe it's just another kid. Don't care, don't want to know. That whole scene was a bit ham-handed and could've been shot to be more ambiguous (they don't get out from under the bed; the Doctor suddenly looks under it and sees them; they _all_ get under the bed; cue dialogue about not looking; weight leaves bed) and would've worked better, but whatever. I'm used to squinting at this show to avoid seeing the skips and scratches.


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## Nellisir (Sep 15, 2014)

I'm just an American that barely pays attention to the show, but my impression has _always_ been that Gallifrey is time-locked from the beginning of time to the end of it. As Morrus says, it's a _time-war_. The only time the Doctor (in whatever and however many iterations) accesses Gallifrey is with a loophole; usually a one-time (ha ha) affair. They can't just pop back to "before" the time-lock; that's like...finding the point of a circle. It's not there.


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## Elven (Sep 15, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> I'm just an American that barely pays attention to the show, but my impression has _always_ been that Gallifrey is time-locked from the beginning of time to the end of it. As Morrus says, it's a _time-war_. The only time the Doctor (in whatever and however many iterations) accesses Gallifrey is with a loophole; usually a one-time (ha ha) affair. They can't just pop back to "before" the time-lock; that's like...finding the point of a circle. It's not there.




If it was "time locked" how can the Doctor be?, surely he would have also been time locked, at his birth, at the academy, etc, same for the master?

If its retroactive, how is there a doctor?


(btw: time locked events are a McGuffin, anything can be time locked not due to anything technical, but its story driven, (and then they make up an excuse)
A time locked event/place in the rpg is at the gm whim, (no hard fast rules, if the gm says its so, it is) and remembered that the rpg has to be cleared by the BBC themselves before they can be printed,)


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## MarkB (Sep 15, 2014)

One thing worth mentioning is that Clara has technically been to Gallifrey before, when she entered the Doctor's timeline to undo the Great Intelligence's meddling. One of the first scenes we see is her talking to the first Doctor as he's about to steal a TARDIS.

That has two strong implications - first, that the Time Lock isn't utterly impenetrable, and second, that Clara, on a subconscious level at least, may still retain the connection to the Doctor's timeline that allowed her to travel through it in the first place. She may even have subconsciously remembered his childhood dream.


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## Elven (Sep 15, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> Definitely the best episode of the season so far, and one of the best in awhile. I much prefer Capaldi to whatisface, fezhead.
> Thoughts as I watched the episode:
> 
> Oh look. Another creepy childhood episode. Are you my mummy? Don't blink. Silence.
> ...




Danny is sensitive because he has killed (while a solider) 
Yes, like the leaf before, the toy solider will no doubt show up again, and remember its an item kept in the family....


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## Morrus (Sep 15, 2014)

Elven said:


> If it was "time locked" how can the Doctor be?, surely he would have also been time locked, at his birth, at the academy, etc, same for the master?
> 
> If its retroactive, how is there a doctor?




He's the exception.  He's the one who locked it. He's outside the time lock.

(And the Master escaped by hiding in a chameleon device/fobwatch).


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## Elven (Sep 15, 2014)

Morrus said:


> He's the exception.  He's the one who locked it. He's outside the time lock.
> 
> (And the Master escaped by hiding in a chameleon device/fobwatch).





No, thats not what i mean,

If the time lock is retroactive, then it should go back in time before he was born, right?


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## Morrus (Sep 15, 2014)

Elven said:


> No, thats not what i mean,
> 
> If the time lock is retroactive, then it should go back in time before he was born, right?




It does.

Don't try to out-logic the time lock.  It's not possible.  You just have to accept it.  These things never bear close scrutiny well.


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## Elven (Sep 15, 2014)

Morrus said:


> It does.
> 
> Don't try to out-logic the time lock.  It's not possible.  You just have to accept it.  These things never bear close scrutiny well.




But, surely that would be a contradiction?


KAAAAAAAAAAAHNN!!!

....i mean..

MCGUUUUUFFFFFIN!!!!!!!


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## Nellisir (Sep 15, 2014)

Elven said:


> (btw: time locked events are a McGuffin, anything can be time locked not due to anything technical, but its story driven, (and then they make up an excuse)
> A time locked event/place in the rpg is at the gm whim, (no hard fast rules, if the gm says its so, it is) and remembered that the rpg has to be cleared by the BBC themselves before they can be printed,)



You keep misusing MacGuffin. The time-lock is a plot device, but it's not a MacGuffin. A MacGuffin is an object or goal whose actual nature is unimportant to the plot; it's simply a motivation for the hero to act. It's the scrap of fur on a stick that greyhounds chase. (Per Wikipedia, the One Ring is not a MacGuffin because the nature of the One Ring is important; the nature of "the stolen necklace" by contrast is not important in most mysteries.)

The time-lock is a plot-device that can by bypassed in part by the great contrivance deus ex machina, aka the Tardis. It's actually the opposite of a MacGuffin because the time-lock doesn't propel the protagonist forward; it's an obstacle for the protagonist to surmount, which makes it just like any other obstacle the protagonist must overcome. Without obstacles, there's no conflict, and without conflict, there's no story. And its actual nature is of importance to the plot. You couldn't substitute a chain-link fence for the time-lock and have the same effect.


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## Nellisir (Sep 15, 2014)

Elven said:


> Danny is sensitive because he has killed (while a solider)
> Yes, like the leaf before, the toy solider will no doubt show up again, and remember its an item kept in the family....



Yes, I get that Danny has killed. It's hard not to get that; he keeps weeping about it. Lots of people in this show have killed someone, including the Doctor. I'm not sure about Clara. Danny needs a shrink.


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## Marius Delphus (Sep 16, 2014)

The FASA Doctor Who RPG stated outright that TARDISes cannot travel into Gallifrey's past. In fact, a TARDIS was always required to arrive on Gallifrey _after _the last time it left Gallifrey (from the POV of Gallifrey) though the amount of time the TARDIS spent away from Gallifrey (from the POV of the travelers) didn't necessarily correspond 1:1 to the amount of time that passed on Gallifrey (from the POV of Gallifrey).

I always thought this was canon, but I don't have a cite to a televised episode handy.


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## Elven (Sep 16, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> You keep misusing MacGuffin. The time-lock is a plot device, but it's not a MacGuffin. A MacGuffin is an object or goal whose actual nature is unimportant to the plot; it's simply a motivation for the hero to act. It's the scrap of fur on a stick that greyhounds chase. (Per Wikipedia, the One Ring is not a MacGuffin because the nature of the One Ring is important; the nature of "the stolen necklace" by contrast is not important in most mysteries.)
> 
> The time-lock is a plot-device that can by bypassed in part by the great contrivance deus ex machina, aka the Tardis. It's actually the opposite of a MacGuffin because the time-lock doesn't propel the protagonist forward; it's an obstacle for the protagonist to surmount, which makes it just like any other obstacle the protagonist must overcome. Without obstacles, there's no conflict, and without conflict, there's no story. And its actual nature is of importance to the plot. You couldn't substitute a chain-link fence for the time-lock and have the same effect.





Can't think of a quote to use to display this is not the case, but the term has long been used as a reason or excuse to do or not do X, W or Z,
McGuffin is the item or technical reason for that desired effect,

I'm sure I've heard Moffat use the term more than once, (heard the Sonic screwdriver described as a McGuffin, and that item by definition is not a restriction) 

(Also George Lucas used the term for "McGuffin" for the item/reason to go after something in his stories...so wiki can suck it)   

A McGuffin is a plot device,  a simple excuse to get from point A, to point B,

So you are wrong


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## Elven (Sep 16, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> Yes, I get that Danny has killed. It's hard not to get that; he keeps weeping about it. Lots of people in this show have killed someone, including the Doctor. I'm not sure about Clara. Danny needs a shrink.




No, its actually a very "realistic" reaction to the after math of killing, 
killing is not a natural thing for anyone to do, all are damaged from it, 
and even hardened criminals in prison can cry from it,


Its actual one of the things i liked in the show,
that its not so sort of cheesy bang bang you are dead, but that such actions have serous consequences, living with regret being on of them,


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## Nellisir (Sep 16, 2014)

Elven said:


> So you are wrong



Yeah, not so much. I didn't have any trouble finding sources.

"an object, event, or character in a film or story that serves to set and keep the plot in motion despite usually lacking intrinsic importance" (Merriam-Webster)
"in film, a plot device that has no specific meaning or purpose other than to advance the story; any situation that motivates the action of a film either artificially or substantively. " (Urban Dictionary)
"An object or device in a movie or a book that serves merely as a trigger for the plot." (Dictionary.com, which was actually linked from Oxfords English Dictionary)

Lucas was using MacGuffin correctly; a macguffin is the motivating factor in a story.
A sonic screwdriver could be considered a macguffin; it's an anything device that moves the plot forward, but it's really more of a magic wand than a macguffin.
In all cases a macguffin advances the plot. It's the goal, not the enemy.
There are stories in which the time-lock could become the MacGuffin, but generally it's not. 

Anyways, your argument is with the dictionaries of the english-speaking world, not me. Have a great day.


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## Elven (Sep 16, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> Yeah, not so much. I didn't have any trouble finding sources.
> 
> "an object, event, or character in a film or story that serves to set and keep the plot in motion despite usually lacking intrinsic importance" (Merriam-Webster)
> "in film, a plot device that has no specific meaning or purpose other than to advance the story; any situation that motivates the action of a film either artificially or substantively. " (Urban Dictionary)
> ...





Those quotes support what I've already said, show me the contrary,
(in fact you said that a McGuffin hinders, right?)

A McGuffin is any excuse (plot device) that allows the story to get from A to B, (the Sonic Screwdriver does this all the time,)


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## Nellisir (Sep 16, 2014)

Elven said:


> (in fact you said that a McGuffin hinders, right?)



Nope, not even close to what I said.


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## Elven (Sep 16, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> Nope, not even close to what I said.





Really?

Coulda sworn...My bad, sorry (guess we both made mistakes hu)
It just your posts seem slanted to he negative after a few all i see is blah blah blah,

It then only takes something shiny to distract me....


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## Herschel (Sep 16, 2014)

Finally had a chance to see it, loved the barn bit though have no idea why he was sleeping in a barn as a boy. 

Danny & Clara have almost no chemistry together. I hope they dump that relationship might quick.


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## Cergorach (Sep 16, 2014)

I actually didn't watch the Robin Hood episode until last night (was facepalming when I saw the preview), wasn't really enjoying it until the very last moments when they were serious. I really enjoyed this episode though, this is the kind of Dr. Who I like to watch.

Clara not telling him might be because of the whole not meeting yourself bit just before. And it looked like he actually got it himself at the end of the episode.


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## Elf Witch (Sep 17, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> Yes, I get that Danny has killed. It's hard not to get that; he keeps weeping about it. Lots of people in this show have killed someone, including the Doctor. I'm not sure about Clara. Danny needs a shrink.




Actually I think his grief over it is more natural than feeling nothing. I often thought the Doctor needs a shrink because it was obvious he suffered PTSD.


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## Nellisir (Sep 17, 2014)

Elf Witch said:


> Actually i think his grief over it is more natural than feeling nothing. I often thought the Doctor needs a shrink because it was obvious he suffered PTSD.



Be that as it may, within the context of the show Danny's grief/regret is being emphasized for the viewer more than other characters'.


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## delericho (Sep 17, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> Be that as it may, within the context of the show Danny's grief/regret is being emphasized for the viewer more than other characters'.




Probably because it's a key character element. And quite possibly as part of the over-turning of the Doctor's "no soldiers" rule - he's the soldier who doesn't have a gun (any more).

I suspect it's just that they're going over the top with the reaction deliberately in order to highlight that This Is Important, rather than anything else. It's "Doctor Who" - I'm not sure they do 'subtle'.


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## Nellisir (Sep 17, 2014)

delericho said:


> It's "Doctor Who" - I'm not sure they do 'subtle'.



Why start now?

(And..yes. I get it about Mr Pink. They're setting him out from the normal scum and villainy of humanity; giving him a conscience and regret so that he can transcend his order-following, proto-Dalek beginnings as a killer and become more. What does a Dalek lack, after all, but compassion? They're setting him up for Something Greater. He's _still_, within the context of the show, and with all due respect to all people who are real and not tv cartoon caricatures, a bit weepy and _ought_ to be seeing a shrink because he's clearly not resolved all his issues.)

(PS - And yeah, the Doctor REALLY needs a shrink too.)


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## Morrus (Sep 17, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> (PS - And yeah, the Doctor REALLY needs a shrink too.)




I would imagine that a shrink trying to analyse a 2000-year old Time Lord might struggle!


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## delericho (Sep 17, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> (PS - And yeah, the Doctor REALLY needs a shrink too.)




Who would be qualified?

Edit: ninja'd.


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## Nellisir (Sep 17, 2014)

delericho said:


> Who would be qualified?




Himself. Post-therapy.  

He IS a doctor, after all.


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## Morrus (Sep 17, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> Himself. Post-therapy.
> 
> He IS a doctor, after all.




I don't think he's a medical doctor.  In fact, I'm not entirely sure he has a doctorate at all!


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## Nellisir (Sep 17, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I don't think he's a medical doctor.  In fact, I'm not entirely sure he has a doctorate at all!



[snark]He'll fit right in then.[/snark]




_[disclaimer]I actually respect psychologists, therapists, and psychiatrists highly; I have utilized their services on occasion since I was a kid to help with stress, depression, and ADD; etc and insert other disclaimers here as necessary.[/disclaimer]_


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## Janx (Sep 17, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I don't think he's a medical doctor.  In fact, I'm not entirely sure he has a doctorate at all!




Isn't that illegal?

In Texas, it's against the law to call yourself an Engineer unless you have a Professional Engineer certification.


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## Morrus (Sep 17, 2014)

Janx said:


> Isn't that illegal?
> 
> In Texas, it's against the law to call yourself an Engineer unless you have a Professional Engineer certification.




I don't think the Doctor really cares about the laws of Texas in the early 21st Century.  He's a bit more... universal in terms of both time and space!  Plus it's probably legal on Gallifrey.


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## Janx (Sep 17, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I don't think the Doctor really cares about the laws of Texas in the early 21st Century.  He's a bit more... universal in terms of both time and space!  Plus it's probably legal on Gallifrey.




no one cares about the laws of Texas.  It's more of the principal that with most laws, if one place has it, a lot of other places have something like it on the books.  Barring the really ridiculous laws about not marrying squirrels that is.

As such, I predict that many places have laws about not using certain titles, like Doctor, unless you have the credentials to back it up.

Not that a Timelord might care, but as a tangent on the whole issue on why he can't treat himself, he very likely also can't call himself a Doctor when he visits Earth.


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## Janx (Sep 17, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I don't think he's a medical doctor.  In fact, I'm not entirely sure he has a doctorate at all!




On the plus side of all this, if I ever finish a SteamPunk costume, I can grab one of my sonic screwdrivers and call myself "The Engineer" and it'll make perfect sense in Texas.


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## Morrus (Sep 17, 2014)

Janx said:


> no one cares about the laws of Texas.  It's more of the principal that with most laws, if one place has it, a lot of other places have something like it on the books.  Barring the really ridiculous laws about not marrying squirrels that is.
> 
> As such, I predict that many places have laws about not using certain titles, like Doctor, unless you have the credentials to back it up.
> 
> Not that a Timelord might care, but as a tangent on the whole issue on why he can't treat himself, he very likely also can't call himself a Doctor when he visits Earth.




He does lots of things people don't want him to do. Entire spacefaring civilizations spend millennia warring with him. As he says: "Never tell me the rules!"


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## Janx (Sep 17, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I would imagine that a shrink trying to analyse a 2000-year old Time Lord might struggle!




that sounds like a good future episode.

Shrink: So let me get this straight, you think you are a 2000 year old time traveler who keeps changing his face every time he dies?

Doctor: Yes, that's pretty much it.

Shrink: I think we're going to need more sessions...


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## Richards (Sep 18, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> (PS - And yeah, the Doctor REALLY needs a shrink too.)



But the Doctor's already "had a shrink" - back in "Planet of Giants," when the TARDIS shrunk the First Doctor and his companions to about an inch high!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_of_Giants

Johnathan


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## Nellisir (Sep 18, 2014)

Richards said:


> But the Doctor's already "had a shrink" - back in "Planet of Giants," when the TARDIS shrunk the First Doctor and his companions to about an inch high!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_of_Giants
> 
> Johnathan




He had one this season. And when he was inside the robot person a few seasons ago.


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## Elven (Sep 18, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> _[disclaimer]I actually respect psychologists, therapists, and psychiatrists highly; I have utilized their services on occasion since I was a kid to help with stress, depression, and ADD; etc and insert other disclaimers here as necessary.[/disclaimer]_





I KNEW IT!!!!111!!


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## Elven (Sep 18, 2014)

Janx said:


> that sounds like a good future episode.
> 
> Shrink: So let me get this straight, you think you are a 2000 year old time traveler who keeps changing his face every time he dies?
> 
> ...





LOL


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## Nellisir (Sep 18, 2014)

Elven said:


> I KNEW IT!!!!111!!



So what? It's not something I keep a secret.


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## delericho (Sep 18, 2014)

Janx said:


> As such, I predict that many places have laws about not using certain titles, like Doctor, unless you have the credentials to back it up.




I imagine psychic paper comes in very handy at times like that.


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## Janx (Sep 18, 2014)

delericho said:


> I imagine psychic paper comes in very handy at times like that.




ooh good point!

Heck, his forged papers are the very signature of the Doctor being Mr. Abignale across time.


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## Elven (Sep 18, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> So what? It's not something I keep a secret.





Never said it was, but its new to me,


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## Elven (Sep 18, 2014)

delericho said:


> I imagine psychic paper comes in very handy at times like that.




When it comes to the Doctor being a "Doctor" I'm sure he is more than over qualified, (Only the best on Gallifray get to become "Timelords" after all)


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Sep 18, 2014)

delericho said:


> I suspect it's just that they're going over the top with the reaction deliberately in order to highlight that This Is Important, rather than anything else. It's "Doctor Who" - I'm not sure they do 'subtle'.




I think it's a commentary on modern military. With the attitude against military action in the modern era, I could imagine a soldier being sensitive when people thinks all they do is kill people.

I thought it was incredibly insensitive of Clara the first time she joked about killing people. I would never do that to someone in the military. Then, once she already knew he was sensitive about it, she DID IT AGAIN. I wouldn't do that to anyone unless I was intentionally trying to antagonize them.


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## Nellisir (Sep 18, 2014)

Elven said:


> Never said it was, but its new to me,



It's not something I share out either. Not usually relevant. Not sure why you're excited about it.


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## Elven (Sep 18, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> It's not something I share out either. Not usually relevant. Not sure why you're excited about it.





Excited? assumption, 

nope, try reviewing within the perspective of what i've said,


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## Nellisir (Sep 18, 2014)

Elven said:


> Excited? assumption,



All caps and excessive use of exclamation points. Clearly exclamatory statement. Exact referent of "I knew it" unclear. Given quote, statement refers to either fact that I respect psychological professionals, or that I have utilized their services in my lifetime. Neither fact seems notable.



> nope, try reviewing within the perspective of what i've said,



You haven't posted anything except "LOL" on the topic of the Doctor seeing a shrink.


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## Elven (Sep 18, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> All caps and excessive use of exclamation points. Clearly exclamatory statement. Exact referent of "I knew it" unclear. Given quote, statement refers to either fact that I respect psychological professionals, or that I have utilized their services in my lifetime. Neither fact seems notable.




So much assumption (where are your facts?)
That says more about the way you think, than anything about me,

Clue: look at what I wrote within the context of "humor"
Clue:!!!111!!




Nellisir said:


> You haven't posted anything except "LOL" on the topic of the Doctor seeing a shrink.




Again, assumption (why do you assume that has got anything to do with that post?, in fact it has more to do with the post where I mentioned you tend to be negative in your posts,)


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## Morrus (Sep 18, 2014)

OK, drop it you two.


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## Nellisir (Sep 18, 2014)

can't post empty post....


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 23, 2014)

Really liked the first half, really put off by the end. I'm getting tired of Clara turning up at all kinds of significant points in the doctors life and manipulating him. It robs him of all agency, and I can't see why they would do that for the main protagonist.

I'm really liking the Capaldi doctor, but I hope they lose this tendency quickly, or I might give up in despair.


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## Tonguez (Sep 24, 2014)

Plane Sailing said:


> Really liked the first half, really put off by the end. I'm getting tired of Clara turning up at all kinds of significant points in the doctors life and manipulating him. It robs him of all agency, and I can't see why they would do that for the main protagonist.
> 
> I'm really liking the Capaldi doctor, but I hope they lose this tendency quickly, or I might give up in despair.




OMG reading that just gave me the horrible notion that Clara is The Woman and thus might be the Doctors Mother!!!

As the impossible girl she is already established as being spread across the Doctors timeline, now including his childhood, so why not his birth (the loom thing is stoopid and not TV canon and 8 was half-human). Claras now embedded in the Tardis psychic matrix too, so maybe that helps her evolve into Missy or a Timelady

I liked Clara under the bed but the bedside speech afterwards was a bit wet. The Orson seemed a bit shoehorned too


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