# WotC non-OGL alternative to D&D



## Tales and Chronicles

Let's say that I'm not too happy about the supposed new OGL thing and, in a fit of teenage-like rebellion, I wanted to move away from the OGL.

I thought the list would be pretty long, but it seems even non-D&D-adjacent games have been released under the OGL. 

So, people of Enworld, would you help me build a list of fairly well-known, not too rule-heavy, games not published under OGL to present to my table of casual gamers?


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## Reynard

Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (SWADE). Done.


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## Stormonu

^^^^^. What @Reynard said.  Best on the block.

Also, (to a lesser degree) Forbidden Lands.

Other that exist, mostly out of print:


Rolemaster
Palladium Fantasy
 - WEG D6 Fantasy

Fate
Chronicles of Ramlar


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## overgeeked

Fate. Fabula Ultima. Index Card RPG. EZD6. L5R. Mouse Guard. Burning Wheel. Mutant Year Zero. Vaesen. Blade Runner. Alien. Forbidden Lands. Avatar Legends. Monty Python's CMRP. Paranoia. Risus. Mork Borg. Viking Death Squad. Doctor Who RPG. 2400. Dread. Monster of the Week. Mothership. Zombie World. 7th Sea. Broken Compass. Ars Magica. Over the Edge. Masks: A New Generation. Cartel. City of Mists. Blades in the Dark. Galaxies in Peril. Cortex Prime. Barbarians of Lemuria. Numenera. Cypher System. Dark Eye. Dune. Dungeon World. Spirit of 77. Thirsty Sword Lesbians. Star Trek Adventures. WEG Star Wars d6. Tales from the Loop. Traveller. And lots, lots more...


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## Hex08

Assuming you are looking for fantasy-oriented stuff:

Savage Worlds is a lot of fun and currently the primary system I use but it can have a much different feel than D&D.

Blades in the Dark and Band of Blades are both fantasy-oriented games using the Forged in the Dark system.

I've heard good things about Runequest but don't own it and have never played it.


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## Azzy

I will shill for Cyberpunk RED.


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## reelo

Mythras (basically a setting-neutral version of Runequest)


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## mamba

Shadow of the Demon Lord
Fantasy AGE
Talisman RPG


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## jdrakeh

Stormonu said:


> ^^^^^. What @Reynard said.  Best on the block.
> 
> Also, (to a lesser degree) Forbidden Lands.
> 
> Other that exist, mostly out of print:
> 
> 
> Rolemaster
> Palladium Fantasy




Good news! Palladium Fantasy and Rolemaster are both in print! Rolemaster has notably just launched a new edition and Palladium has brought the original edition of their fantasy back into print as a Commemorative Edition hardcover.


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## Voadam

One of the non-OGL Runequests. Or other fantasy BRP games.

Shadow of the Demon Lord

A bunch of OSR do not use the OGL. A lot do too so check individual things.

Green Ronin's Age system.

Dungeon World, Ironsworn and other Powered by the Apocalypse fantasy games.

Barbarians of Lemuria

Hackmaster

Ars Magica

Forged in the Dark games

Earthdawn

Exalted

GURPS

Warhammer

Savage Worlds

Ubiquity

Unisystem

Palladium


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## Lidgar

The One Ring


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## Ruin Explorer

overgeeked said:


> Fate.



Fate is OGL.

I know! But it is. I suspect a couple of the others might be as well. You can't assume they're not just because they don't use d20 mechanics.


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## Ruin Explorer

My serious answer would be Dungeon World.

It plays very like D&D, to the point where you can literally run existing D&D adventures with, but it has a totally different system.


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## Ruin Explorer

Voadam said:


> Earthdawn



Is there a version of Earthdawn where the rules aren't dreadful? Serious question, because I need to get it if so. Conceptually ED is great, and for 1993, the rules aren't terrible, but for 2022...


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## Cadence

What are the non OGL ones that use a widely used non-revocable license like CC?


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## Faolyn

Reynard said:


> Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (SWADE). Done.



I'm definitely looking forward to playing in that system.


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## overgeeked

Ruin Explorer said:


> Fate is OGL.
> 
> I know! But it is. I suspect a couple of the others might be as well. You can't assume they're not just because they don't use d20 mechanics.



It’s also released under Creative Commons.


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## Faolyn

Ruin Explorer said:


> Fate is OGL.
> 
> I know! But it is. I suspect a couple of the others might be as well. You can't assume they're not just because they don't use d20 mechanics.



OK, here's the question. _Why _is Fate OGL?


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## Ruin Explorer

Faolyn said:


> OK, here's the question. _Why _is Fate OGL?



Because they wanted an easy licence for people to be able to make content for their system, I would guess? And being OGL makes it incredibly easy for people to legally make stuff for your system. I know they're not the only non-d20 game that's OGL.


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## J.Quondam

Ruin Explorer said:


> Fate is OGL.
> 
> I know! But it is. I suspect a couple of the others might be as well. You can't assume they're not just because they don't use d20 mechanics.



Fate offers a choice of OGL or CC.








						Licensing Fate
					

Licensing: Licensing of Fate Core and Fate Accelerated is now possible with the July 2013 release of our system reference documents (SRDs). On September 2013, we made Fate System Toolkit available …



					www.faterpg.com


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## Faolyn

Ruin Explorer said:


> Because they wanted an easy licence for people to be able to make content for their system, I would guess? And being OGL makes it incredibly easy for people to legally make stuff for your system. I know they're not the only non-d20 game that's OGL.



Sounds about right. I guess it's easier/cheaper to use a standard OGL than hire lawyers to make your own, properly, as well.


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## GMMichael

This might be a good point to distinguish between the Wizards OGL (woggle?) and other OGLs.  Because I'm pretty sure Fate owes nothing to WotC.


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## Stormonu

Savage Worlds has a fan license for free distribution, anything to be sold has to go through an official licencing track.









						Licensing
					

LICENSING If you'd like to use the Savage Worlds game system for your own materials, there are currently four ways to do so:   	the unapproved Fan license,   	the Savage Worlds Adventurer’s Guild on OneBookShelf.com (including DriveThruRPG.com and other platforms),  	the Media Network Content...



					peginc.com


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## Ruin Explorer

GMMichael said:


> This might be a good point to distinguish between the Wizards OGL (woggle?) and other OGLs.  Because I'm pretty sure Fate owes nothing to WotC.



Ryan Dancey was pretty sure the OGL was impossible to take away or negatively change.


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## J.Quondam

GMMichael said:


> This might be a good point to distinguish between the Wizards OGL (woggle?) and other OGLs.  Because I'm pretty sure Fate owes nothing to WotC.



Doesn't WotC literally own "the" OGL, though? It begins:


> OPEN GAME LICENSE Version 1.0a​The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.​



which I pulled from the Fate SRD licensing site.

There are other open licenses, but when one says "the OGL," I think they're referring to that license specifically, the one created and released by WotC.

I could get behind making a distinction between OGL 1.0, the "actually open OGL", and this latest OGL 1.1 "the not-really-open OGL in name only."


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## Voadam

Ruin Explorer said:


> Is there a version of Earthdawn where the rules aren't dreadful? Serious question, because I need to get it if so. Conceptually ED is great, and for 1993, the rules aren't terrible, but for 2022...



I know they did a couple of other system conversions at one point such as pathfinder 1e. Not sure if there is a savage worlds but I think it was like three system conversions with a core book, monster book, etc. for each.

I am only really familiar with the Earthdawn 1e stuff.


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## Cadence

From Twitter ...


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## Random Task

The Fantasy Trip. Also probably qualifies as OSR. 

Warhammer


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## Ruin Explorer

Voadam said:


> I know they did a couple of other system conversions at one point such as pathfinder 1e. Not sure if there is a savage worlds but I think it was like three system conversions with a core book, monster book, etc. for each.
> 
> I am only really familiar with the Earthdawn 1e stuff.



They did do a Savage Worlds but it apparently sucks.

I wish the 4E ED had gone ahead.


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## Thomas Shey

Ruin Explorer said:


> Is there a version of Earthdawn where the rules aren't dreadful? Serious question, because I need to get it if so. Conceptually ED is great, and for 1993, the rules aren't terrible, but for 2022...




The problem with questions like this is it makes a presumption that the reader may not agree with, so its hard to answer the question since it does not detail what about the system is "dreadful".  I ran a whole campaign using the original system back in the day and did not find them terrible, but I'll also admit that my taste in rules has not changed that substantially in 30 years, so...


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## Ruin Explorer

Thomas Shey said:


> The problem with questions like this is it makes a presumption that the reader may not agree with, so its hard to answer the question since it does not detail what about the system is "dreadful".  I ran a whole campaign using the original system back in the day and did not find them terrible, but I'll also admit that my taste in rules has not changed that substantially in 30 years, so...



I mean, if you don't think the original rules were extremely clunky, you aren't the right person to answer this question, I agree. I loved ED's setting and ideas so much but those dice mechanics really didn't work for me or my group.


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## GMforPowergamers

My choices would be Rifts, TORG, and Savage World

I don't know if it counts but the Essentials system from renegade for GI Joe is a fun read


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## CardCrest

Is LevelUp by EnWorld themselves on these lists of alternatives or no?


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## FormerLurker

Fantasy Age and Shadows of the Demon Lord are probably the biggest two. 
They're modern and balanced, simple but not OSR.


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## Haplo781

Tales of Xadia.


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## mamba

CardCrest said:


> Is LevelUp by EnWorld themselves on these lists of alternatives or no?



no, as it is under the OGL


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## Voadam

Ruin Explorer said:


> They did do a Savage Worlds but it apparently sucks.
> 
> I wish the 4E ED had gone ahead.



I remember the reviews being not very positive on the Savage Worlds and Pathfinder conversions.

Looking at the FASA DTRPG page it does look like there was a Fourth Edition with 37 products listed.


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## Retreater

Voadam said:


> I remember the reviews being not very positive on the Savage Worlds and Pathfinder conversions.
> 
> Looking at the FASA DTRPG page it does look like there was a Fourth Edition with 37 products listed.





Ruin Explorer said:


> They did do a Savage Worlds but it apparently sucks.



I recently ran Savage Pathfinder. I wouldn't say it "sucks" (at least IMO). I'm not completely sold on the system, but it's something I could learn to make work (which, honestly, I have to do for 5e anyway).

Savage Pathfinder Post-Mortem (Spoilers)


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## AdmundfortGeographer

Worlds Without Number didn’t have the OGL in it last I checked. There’s a lot in WWN that people who have played D&D will recognize. It was designed with the core of B/X in mind with a skill system based on Traveller.  

Heck the core rules are freely available to download.


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## Zardnaar

The old D6 system is open source now iirc. 

 D6 fantasy I own hardcover the pdfs have been free before.


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## bedir than

Synnibar


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## Umbran

_*Swords of the Serpentine*_, by EN World moderator emeritus PIratecat/Kevin Kulp!


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## Bill Zebub

Ruin Explorer said:


> My serious answer would be Dungeon World.
> 
> *It plays very like D&D*, to the point where you can literally run existing D&D adventures with, but it has a totally different system.




Whoah.  That's...interesting.  I find the DW (AW) system tremendously appealing, but when I've tried to GM it...it doesn't go as I imagined.  I don't think it plays _anything_ like D&D.

EDIT: But for anybody thinking about playing an AW/DW game, take a look at Stonetop.


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## Thomas Shey

Ruin Explorer said:


> I mean, if you don't think the original rules were extremely clunky, you aren't the right person to answer this question, I agree. I loved ED's setting and ideas so much but those dice mechanics really didn't work for me or my group.




Exactly my point.  Without knowing what part about it was problematic to you, it'd be hard to answer the question, even if the proper answer was "Yes".  People can find just one element of a rules system so intrusive and unpleasant that it makes a game "awful" or it can take a lot more than that.


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## Aldarc

I assume that this thread is about looking for D&D-like (heroic) fantasy adventure TTRPGs that are not under the OGL? I will focus on games that qualify for this "out of the box" and then throw in a few that are generic tool kit systems that can be customized for fantasy. 

*Fantasy AGE *(Green Ronin): It's new player friendly IME. The 3d6 stunt point system is fun for many new players. There are three, soon to be four, broad classes with subtype like Specializations. Magic is organized in themes (e.g., fire, illusion, plant, healing, etc.) and is not as "dense" or overwhelming as it can be in D&D.

*Index Card RPG: *a super light and stipped down version of D&D that uses the Creative Commons License. Incredibly hackable.

*Worlds Without Number* (Kevin Crawford): If B/X, Traveller, and True 20 raised a baby together, creating a mix of OSR and modern sensibilities. Has tools and advice for running sandbox games. The implied and default setting is Dying Earth.

*Dungeon World: *a Powered by the Apocalype game that tries to evoke old school D&D. However, I would recommend the more polished and free variant _*Homebrew World *_(Jeremy Strandberg), albeit modified for longer campaigns, or _*Freebooters on the Frontier*_ (Jason Lutes). The latter two authors have carried the DW torch whereas the original authors of DW have moved on.
* *Stonetop *(Jeremy Strandberg): a more focused and polished DW-adjacent game focusing on adventurers being residents of an Iron Age village who quest to improve the lives of the village.

*Fabula Ultima: *a TTRPG based on and inspired by JRPGs. The game is also influenced heavily by tabletop games like 4e D&D, Fate, Cortex Prime, Apocalypse World, and Blades in the Dark.

*Shadow of the Demon Lord *(Rob Schwalb): dark fantasy love child of D&D 5e and Warhammer Fantasy RP. A lot of character-building options even within 10 levels, as characters pick a Novice, Expert, and Master "paths" that can be mixed in all sorts of combinations.
* *Shadow of the Weird Wizard* is on the way soon, with the Kickstarter hopefully in March 2023. It will be Rob Schwalb's ode to Greyhawk and Gygaxian fantasy.

*Generic Toolkit Systems *

Cypher System
Savage Worlds

However, if I had to pick which games that I would run for groups of more casual players? Fantasy AGE, Index Card RPG, or Dungeon World.


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## dave2008

I will still play D&D. We play in our own setting and we have all the material we need.  I don't need to continue to support WotC to play D&D. It is my game, not theirs.


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## Voadam

Aldarc said:


> *Worlds Without Number* (Kevin Crawford): If B/X, Traveller, and True 20 raised a baby together, creating a mix of OSR and modern sensibilities. Has tools and advice for running sandbox games. The implied and default setting is Dying Earth.



Huh, with the monster single save I thought it was more of a Swords & Wizardry OD&D base type thing than a B/X variant. The stat bonuses only going to +2 instead of the standard +3 for an 18 in B/X also fed into that as well as all classes having d6 based HD. The monsters do have B/X type morale though.


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## Aldarc

Voadam said:


> Huh, with the monster single save I thought it was more of a Swords & Wizardry OD&D base type thing than a B/X variant. The stat bonuses only going to +2 instead of the standard +3 for an 18 in B/X also fed into that as well as all classes having d6 based HD. The monsters do have B/X type morale though.



I take the creator's word for it here, but it's not enough for me to quibble over. 1e D&D or B/X? As the Germans say, "Das ist mir Wurst."


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## Reynard

Zardnaar said:


> The old D6 system is open source now iirc.
> 
> D6 fantasy I own hardcover the pdfs have been free before.



D6 was released under the OGL.


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## Zardnaar

Reynard said:


> D6 was released under the OGL.




 I thought they did there own version? 
 Anyway I'm sure you could do a non OGL D6 game if you really wanted to.


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## Reynard

Zardnaar said:


> I thought they did there own version?
> Anyway I'm sure you could do a non OGL D6 game if you really wanted to.



Yeah, it would be tough to argue additive dice pools are copyrightable. Now, if you used exactly the same attributes and skill break downs as another game, maybe? But then I am not sure where the line is (and I don't gather that anyone else can be sure either).


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## Zardnaar

Reynard said:


> Yeah, it would be tough to argue additive dice pools are copyrightable. Now, if you used exactly the same attributes and skill break downs as another game, maybe? But then I am not sure where the line is (and I don't gather that anyone else can be sure either).




 Well it's also because WEG isn't around anymore so if you copied there system there's no one around to enforce any claims to the system afaik. 

 D6 fantasy bisnt very good but the D6 system isn't to bad. I'm sure someone could do a better job than D6 fantasy.


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## hojulation

The AGE system has been mentioned more than once but really encompasses a lot of properties you can play in:

- Generic Fantasy AGE (which is getting a new, updated core rules manual), can be played in Freeport, Blue Rose, Lost Citadel, and Titansgrave.

- Dragon AGE (the progenitor of the entire AGE system) I ran a Dragon AGE campaign for years and it was a blast. There was even a Midgard bestiary produced by Kobold Press at one point. Ran a converted N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God in this system, it was awesome.

- The Expanse - Only played the Quick Start adventure but  it was a lot of fun, a great refinement to the overall AGE system IMO. They've done a great job capturing the feeling of the novel series.

- Modern AGE - As the name implies, a Modern Setting implementation of the AGE rules, it can be used with their Threefold setting to have Modern, plane hopping adventures.

- Green Ronin also has a new campaign coming out on Backerkit for their Fifth Season RPG which is also powered by AGE.

And I'd be remiss to not mention Free League (though they've been mentioned already too), the Beta for Dragonbane has been released and looks like a lot of fun. The "Mirth and Mayhem" approach is right up my players alley.  When the full game is released I will definitely be running a campaign using those rules


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## mamba

hojulation said:


> The AGE system has been mentioned more than once but really encompasses a lot of properties you can play in:
> 
> - Generic Fantasy AGE (which is getting a new, updated core rules manual), can be played in Freeport, Blue Rose, Lost Citadel, and Titansgrave.
> 
> - Dragon AGE (the progenitor of the entire AGE system) I ran a Dragon AGE campaign for years and it was a blast. There was even a Midgard bestiary produced by Kobold Press at one point. Ran a converted N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God in this system, it was awesome.



what is the difference between Dragon Age and Fantasy Age, sounds like they both work for generic fantasy?


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## Sorcerers Apprentice

AD&D. There's no OGL involved, and according to Gary Gygax it's a separate game completely unrelated to D&D.


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## Voadam

mamba said:


> what is the difference between Dragon Age and Fantasy Age, sounds like they both work for generic fantasy?



Dragon Age is based off the video game including setting and lore.

Fantasy Age uses the same rules system but is generic fantasy not set in the video game. I could not say how much races and magic and monsters and class type stuff varies.


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## mamba

Voadam said:


> Fantasy Age uses the same rules system but is generic fantasy not set in the video game. I could not say how much races and magic and monsters and class type stuff varies.



seem to be similar enough, minus the Dragon Age game world









						[Ronin Round Table] Fantasy AGE: What’s Different from Dragon Age?
					

Chris Pramas answers the question, "How is Fantasy AGE different from Dragon Age?"




					greenronin.com
				




talks about the mechanical differences (8 vs 9 attributes, etc.)


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## Vaalingrade

Faolyn said:


> OK, here's the question. _Why _is Fate OGL?



In the first few years of this century, releasing your game under the OGL was a good will gesture as well as a way to generate a self-perpetuating cottage industry out of your fan base. It was a win-win for everyone as long as you didn't plan to replace your old OGL game with a deliberately non-OGL version a few years down the road.


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## Thanlis

Edit: misread the thread, sorry!


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## CardCrest

mamba said:


> no, as it is under the OGL



OK thank you.


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## Thomas Shey

mamba said:


> what is the difference between Dragon Age and Fantasy Age, sounds like they both work for generic fantasy?




Fantasy AGE is later evolution of DAGE, with less of the Dragon Age specifics baked in.

(My personal opinion is that both tend to start to progressively break down above about level six, showing some artifacts of how DAGE was originally written and playtested.  I won't speak about Modern AGE; a quick reading shows some attempts to address at least some of the issues there).


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## hojulation

A few other systems I haven't seen mentioned yet are Symbaroum and Coriolis, both by Free League, as well as the Genesys system originally from Fantasy Flight Games before their buy out and reshuffling. It was the system that powered the FFG Star Wars RPG originally, but then was spun off as a stand alone, setting agnostic system (still available on Drivethru RPG) and then later they released separate setting books for Terrinoth, Android, and even their Keyforge TCG.


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## Yaarel

hojulation said:


> Symbaroum and Coriolis, both by Free League



I am fond of the Year Zero Engine that Free League games tend to use. It is elegantly simple.

Do you know if they have an equivalent of an revocable Open License? Is it modifiable?


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## mcmillan

Yaarel said:


> I am fond of the Year Zero Engine that Free League games tend to use. It is elegantly simple.
> 
> Do you know if they have an equivalent of an revocable Open License? Is it modifiable?



They have a deal with OneBookShelf similar to the DMs Guild, but no open license as far as I'm aware. 


			https://support.drivethrurpg.com/hc/en-us/articles/360037116592


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## Yaarel

mcmillan said:


> They have a deal with OneBookShelf similar to the DMs Guild, but no open license as far as I'm aware.
> 
> 
> https://support.drivethrurpg.com/hc/en-us/articles/360037116592



I appreciate the info detail.


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## Spohedus

I’m surprised we are on page 4 of this thread without mention of Dungeon Crawl Classic (DCC). Our table has been thoroughly enjoying it over the last six months.


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## overgeeked

Spohedus said:


> I’m surprised we are on page 4 of this thread without mention of Dungeon Crawl Classic (DCC). Our table has been thoroughly enjoying it over the last six months.



It's been mentioned several times. It's OGL so doesn't fit the criteria for the thread.


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## Lanefan

dave2008 said:


> I will still play D&D. We play in our own setting and we have all the material we need.



Same here, but it's still cool to hear about these other systems and their relation to WotC/OGL.

I didn't realize Dungeon World was completely divorced from the OGL.  For some while now (2 years? 3 years?) a friend has been running a game using some sort of mashup of our homebrew 1e variant and Dungeon World as her rules system; I guess it must be going OK as they're still at it (their next session should start within an hour or so, in fact).


dave2008 said:


> I don't need to continue to support WotC to play D&D. It is my game, not theirs.



I don't need to support them either, but at the end of the day I'll concede they do own at least some of the IP and in all fairness over the last 10 years or so (the last two months notwithstanding) have done a pretty good job* in marketing the game and increasing its popularity.

* - even if sometimes that "pretty good job" simply meant getting out of the way of things like Critical Role and giving them room to rock.


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## Retreater

I liked Forbidden Lands when I tried it.


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## MoonSong

Look for Heroes Against Darkness. It is CC and very D&Dish.


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## hojulation

mcmillan said:


> They have a deal with OneBookShelf similar to the DMs Guild, but no open license as far as I'm aware.



Free League isn't the only game designer to have this kind of deal with OneBookShelf. Similar arrangements exist for AGE, Cypher System, Genesys, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Traveller, even Hero Kids, just to name a few.


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## overgeeked

The Gaming Gang just did a video featuring 29 non-D&D fantasy games. Most of them have been mentioned and some of them are OGL, but still worth watch.


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## Aldarc

Thomas Shey said:


> Fantasy AGE is later evolution of DAGE, with less of the Dragon Age specifics baked in.
> 
> (My personal opinion is that both tend to start to progressively break down above about level six, showing some artifacts of how DAGE was originally written and playtested.  I won't speak about Modern AGE; a quick reading shows some attempts to address at least some of the issues there).



There is an upcoming revision to FAGE. There are also options in Fantasy AGE Companion that also address some of the issues you allude to.


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## Thomas Shey

Aldarc said:


> There is an upcoming revision to FAGE. There are also options in Fantasy AGE Companion that also address some of the issues you allude to.




Yeah, some of it was me simplifying.  I'm also not sure but some of them are kind of intractable, though.


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## Ruin Explorer

Thomas Shey said:


> Yeah, some of it was me simplifying.  I'm also not sure but some of them are kind of intractable, though.



Which issues would you say were intractable? I was considering Fantasy AGE and maybe the issues won't matter to me but maybe they will.


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## Reynard

mcmillan said:


> They have a deal with OneBookShelf similar to the DMs Guild, but no open license as far as I'm aware.
> 
> 
> https://support.drivethrurpg.com/hc/en-us/articles/360037116592



There is a YZ Engine SRD too. It was released under the OGL 1.0a but there is no reason it has to be since it isn't derived from the D&D SRD.


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## rcade

Reynard said:


> D6 was released under the OGL.



D6 is OGL but it isn't derived from the System Reference Document, so nothing Hasbro/WOTC does would affect the validity of the license or the ability to create new derivative works from it. Here's the Section 15 for D6 Fantasy:



> 15. COPYRIGHT NOTICE
> Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
> D6 Fantasy (WEG 51013), Copyright 2004, Purgatory Publishing Inc
> West End Games, WEG, and D6 System are trademarks and properties of Purgatory Publishing Inc.




There are some OGL-licensed games that don't use the SRD. The publishers wanted to support open gaming and have their own network-effect benefit from third parties growing their player base.


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## Reynard

rcade said:


> D6 is OGL but it isn't derived from the System Reference Document, so nothing Hasbro/WOTC does would affect the validity of the license or the ability to create new derivative works from it. Here's the Section 15 for D6 Fantasy:
> 
> 
> 
> There are some OGL-licensed games that don't use the SRD. The publishers wanted to support open gaming and have their own network-effect benefit from third parties growing their player base.



This means they can republish without the OGL, but if they keep it they are still bound by it regardless of whether they used the SRD.


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## Tales and Chronicles

Ruin Explorer said:


> Which issues would you say were intractable? I was considering Fantasy AGE and maybe the issues won't matter to me but maybe they will.



HP bloat + very efficient damage reduction from armors. 
It is also not hard to ''auto-hit'' most creatures after 5-6th level.

So it becomes a game slog because you roll only to see if you Stunt (rolling double of the 3d6s) and hope to at least deal some damage to a creature with a huge pool of hp, even at low-level. 

There's also some shoehorning going one with the class, giving melee only features to the Warrior and ranged only to the Rogue. 

But its a pretty basic and simple system, its not hard to correct those and some issues were even addressed in the companion (optional rules to boost damage or halve HP, frex). 

There's also a distinct lack of monsters. There's only a few enemies in the corebook and a single thin(while quite good) bestiary. And since there's 9 stats, making new enemies can take some time; not PF 1 time, but still a little long.


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## rcade

Reynard said:


> This means they can republish without the OGL, but if they keep it they are still bound by it regardless of whether they used the SRD.



It also means that WOTC/Hasbro can't tell you to stop publishing the work or publishing your own derived works from it because it has nothing to do with their IP.


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## mamba

Reynard said:


> This means they can republish without the OGL, but if they keep it they are still bound by it regardless of whether they used the SRD.



yes, but what exactly are the restrictions there ?


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## rcade

mamba said:


> yes, but what exactly are the restrictions there ?



The normal OGL restrictions: Include this license, identify your open game content, identify your product identity, add your product to Section 15.


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## Malchor Flubbit

Stormonu said:


> ^^^^^. What @Reynard said.  Best on the block.
> 
> Also, (to a lesser degree) Forbidden Lands.
> 
> Other that exist, mostly out of print:
> 
> 
> Rolemaster
> Palladium Fantasy
> - WEG D6 Fantasy
> 
> Fate
> Chronicles of Ramlar



Now wish I had backed Drakar och Demoner/Dragonbane.
Don't forget Runequest, which can be played as a generic FRPG.


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## overgeeked

rcade said:


> It also means that WOTC/Hasbro can't tell you to stop publishing the work or publishing your own derived works from it because it has nothing to do with their IP.



Except that they hold the copyright to the OGL. They can ask you to stop printing their copyright material in your books.


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## mamba

rcade said:


> The normal OGL restrictions: Include this license, identify your open game content, identify your product identity, add your product to Section 15.



exactly, essentially nothing


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## rcade

overgeeked said:


> Except that they hold the copyright to the OGL. They can ask you to stop printing their copyright material in your books.



If Hasbro tried to wipe out the use of the OGL with that tactic, it would be a threat to every open source license and provoke a vigorous legal defense from deep-pocketed entities across the open source world.


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## Thomas Shey

Ruin Explorer said:


> Which issues would you say were intractable? I was considering Fantasy AGE and maybe the issues won't matter to me but maybe they will.



 Its easier for me to speak of Dragon Age, since I ran it and not just read it.

The easily addressable one (which they have fixed as at least an optional in Modern Age) is that the level elevating hit points do not work at all well with the damage absorbing armor, especially since the ways to raise damage output are pretty limited.

The other issues is that there's sharply limited ways to show any sort of vertical increase in ability; there's plenty of ways to show horizontal increase, but pretty quickly it can turn into "Yeah, I can buy this Talent or this Focus I'm probably never going to use).  And connected with that, if you don't have the elevation in hit points, there's even _less_ way to show any increase in defensive ability (a couple Talents can help, but in an even more limited way than on the offense).

As I noted, none of this starts showing its ugly face until you hit about 8th level (though at least in DAGE you also had blatant winners and losers among the Talents and the Spells; I'm not qualified to judge how true that is with FAGE).


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## Thomas Shey

Tales and Chronicles said:


> HP bloat + very efficient damage reduction from armors.
> It is also not hard to ''auto-hit'' most creatures after 5-6th level.




Yup.  The HP problem is addressable, but I forgot about the second issue (its been quite a while since my campaign).



Tales and Chronicles said:


> So it becomes a game slog because you roll only to see if you Stunt (rolling double of the 3d6s) and hope to at least deal some damage to a creature with a huge pool of hp, even at low-level.
> 
> There's also some shoehorning going one with the class, giving melee only features to the Warrior and ranged only to the Rogue.




With DAGE at least it also become progressively pointless to use healing magic because it was so small relative to both the damage and the hit points involved.



Tales and Chronicles said:


> But its a pretty basic and simple system, its not hard to correct those and some issues were even addressed in the companion (optional rules to boost damage or halve HP, frex).
> 
> There's also a distinct lack of monsters. There's only a few enemies in the corebook and a single thin(while quite good) bestiary. And since there's 9 stats, making new enemies can take some time; not PF 1 time, but still a little long.




That part never bothered me, but then, most of my gaming career has been with games more complicated than that.


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## Thomas Shey

Malchor Flubbit said:


> Now wish I had backed Drakar och Demoner/Dragonbane.
> Don't forget Runequest, which can be played as a generic FRPG.





Sort of.


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## Thomas Shey

rcade said:


> If Hasbro tried to wipe out the use of the OGL with that tactic, it would be a threat to every open source license and provoke a vigorous legal defense from deep-pocketed entities across the open source world.




That's why there's been a suggestion that they need to walk pretty carefully if they don't want to attract, oh, _Alphabet_'s attenton.


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## reelo

Thomas Shey said:


> Sort of.



Mythras is Runequest with Glorantha filed-off.


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## Lucas Yew

Umm, any recommendations as the title which are "rules as physics", *other* *than* GURPS and the HERO System (which I already know)?

More thanks if said rule is CC-BY-SA or less restrictive than that in any scenario...


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## Vaalingrade

I will not accept the slander of calling HERO a rules as physics system.


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## Ruin Explorer

Vaalingrade said:


> I will not accept the slander of calling HERO a rules as physics system.



It does seem unfair. HERO is clearly a WW2 small-unit combat rules system inexplicably given a lot of rules for superheroes and called an RPG for some reason.


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## Ruin Explorer

Thomas Shey said:


> Its easier for me to speak of Dragon Age, since I ran it and not just read it.
> 
> The easily addressable one (which they have fixed as at least an optional in Modern Age) is that the level elevating hit points do not work at all well with the damage absorbing armor, especially since the ways to raise damage output are pretty limited.
> 
> The other issues is that there's sharply limited ways to show any sort of vertical increase in ability; there's plenty of ways to show horizontal increase, but pretty quickly it can turn into "Yeah, I can buy this Talent or this Focus I'm probably never going to use).  And connected with that, if you don't have the elevation in hit points, there's even _less_ way to show any increase in defensive ability (a couple Talents can help, but in an even more limited way than on the offense).
> 
> As I noted, none of this starts showing its ugly face until you hit about 8th level (though at least in DAGE you also had blatant winners and losers among the Talents and the Spells; I'm not qualified to judge how true that is with FAGE).



Ooof.

Those seem like exactly the sort of things I don't like. I guess I'll see whether the new edition fixes any of that.


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## Jadeite

There's also Midgard (not the Kobold Press one), but it's currently only available in German. It's rules are somewhat similar to d20, but have been used since the 80s.


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## Thomas Shey

reelo said:


> Mythras is Runequest with Glorantha filed-off.




I realize that, but it still imposes some rather Gloranthan assumptions on any game used for it, just by how it sets up character generation and magic.  The latter is always an issue (you pretty much either have to have a build-a-magic-system approach or a large number of options), but its very much a thing still, and so is the former.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not hostile to Mythras.  The last fantasy campaign I ran used it.  But it very much shows its roots.


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## Thomas Shey

Lucas Yew said:


> Umm, any recommendations as the title which are "rules as physics", *other* *than* GURPS and the HERO System (which I already know)?
> 
> More thanks if said rule is CC-BY-SA or less restrictive than that in any scenario...




EABA 2e?


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## Thomas Shey

Ruin Explorer said:


> Ooof.
> 
> Those seem like exactly the sort of things I don't like. I guess I'll see whether the new edition fixes any of that.




We liked DAGE a fair bit for the first few levels, but the problems started to show up really hard about 8th.  I maintain its an artifact of the fact they wrote and playtested the game for the first five levels.  Paused.  Did the second five levels.  Paused a long time.  Then did it for the last ten.  Among other things this meant they really didn't see how the magic system would hold up at higher levels well.

(Note: FAGE uses a somewhat different, albeit related magic system to DAGE, but my reading of the spell lists did not suggest to me that it was immune to these problems).


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## Aldarc

Thomas Shey said:


> Its easier for me to speak of Dragon Age, since I ran it and not just read it.
> 
> The easily addressable one (which they have fixed as at least an optional in Modern Age) is that the level elevating hit points do not work at all well with the damage absorbing armor, especially since the ways to raise damage output are pretty limited.
> 
> The other issues is that there's sharply limited ways to show any sort of vertical increase in ability; there's plenty of ways to show horizontal increase, but pretty quickly it can turn into "Yeah, I can buy this Talent or this Focus I'm probably never going to use).  And connected with that, if you don't have the elevation in hit points, there's even _less_ way to show any increase in defensive ability (a couple Talents can help, but in an even more limited way than on the offense).
> 
> As I noted, none of this starts showing its ugly face until you hit about 8th level (though at least in DAGE you also had blatant winners and losers among the Talents and the Spells; I'm not qualified to judge how true that is with FAGE).





Ruin Explorer said:


> Ooof.
> 
> Those seem like exactly the sort of things I don't like. I guess I'll see whether the new edition fixes any of that.



I have played a fair number of campaigns of Fantasy AGE (Titansgrave) and partook in the Fantasy AGE Core playtest, running a number of sessions with the playtest materials. I do not have any experience with Modern AGE, however, apart from cursory glances in the books, since my past players prefer more standard fare fantasy. I don’t mind answering questions about FAGE based upon my own experiences running the game. 

I will say that I personally find the criticism of AGE providing horizontal progression over more vertical progression to be a feature rather a flaw, though I can understand how someone who prefers the vertical progression of, let's say, Pathfinder 2 or D&D to be more to their liking would not find AGE to their liking on that front. There is a flatter power curve to FAGE. You will not find any magic on the level of Wish or even upper level spells in AGE. The "master" spells/arcana in FAGE would probably be about 3rd or 4th level spells in D&D. FWIW, I typically prefer this level of magic for a lot of my fantasy homebrews. 

I do think that Modern AGE is the more polished version of the game. The upcoming FAGE Core Rulebook, however, desires to maintain backwards compatibility with the existing supplemental materials (e.g., FAGE Bestiary, Lairs Book, Campaign Builder's Guide, etc.) so it doesn't try to rock the boat as far as making adjustments to FAGE. That said, Fantasy AGE makes some changes to the Dragon AGE system, and there will be additional changes as part of the upcoming Fantasy AGE Core Rulebook. It is also introducing the Envoy class, which can be built to be more Warlord like and not just Bard-like. The four classes suggest that each will excel in different pillars of the game: i.e., Envoy (Social), Mage (Magic), Rogue (Exploration), and Warrior (Combat). Also, there will be some additional bonuses to damage and defense as part of class progression. And Specializations will now start at level 1. 

Keep in mind that one reason for the higher HP is also a result of how Combat or Magic Stunts can enable extra attacks and/or damage. As characters progress, they will often be able to do some stunts more regularly or often. There are also spells and abilities that let PCs penetrate and bypass armor damage reduction. Moreover, there are mods that are part of the base game of Modern AGE and found in Fantasy AGE Companion that allow the GM to adjust the HP or damage, use a Wounds system, action points, or a Stunt pool. The game is almost effortlessly hackable IME.


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## Thomas Shey

To make it clear, I'm not someone who objects to a non-linear power curve that flattens out over time.  That's what things like BRP and to some degree GURPS do for example.

The problem with Dragon Age was that at a certain point any vertical progression doesn't just flatten, it outright stops, and it does so relatively early in a game that avowedly had a 20 level progression.  By the time we hit tenth level, people were looking around trying to find something relevant to spend their Talents and Foci on, because all the ones they were likely to be using had already been exhausted.


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## Thomas Shey

Aldarc said:


> Keep in mind that one reason for the higher HP is also a result of how Combat or Magic Stunts can enable extra attacks and/or damage. As characters progress, they will often be able to do some stunts more regularly or often. There are also spells and abilities that let PCs penetrate and bypass armor damage reduction. Moreover, there are mods that are part of the base game of Modern AGE and found in Fantasy AGE Companion that allow the GM to adjust the HP or damage, use a Wounds system, action points, or a Stunt pool. The game is almost effortlessly hackable IME.




Just a comment on this; we found on the whole that even with those advantages in getting combat stunts and the like, they stalled out well before hit point advancement did.  (Ironically, however, the fact that damage did gust up to some degree is what ended up making the healing magic largely a waste of time in combat; it was difficult to even break even on one round's damage from the type of opponents you were getting at those levels.  There were almost always better things to do with your action.)


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## Lanefan

Thomas Shey said:


> To make it clear, I'm not someone who objects to a non-linear power curve that flattens out over time.  That's what things like BRP and to some degree GURPS do for example.
> 
> The problem with Dragon Age was that at a certain point any vertical progression doesn't just flatten, it outright stops, and it does so relatively early in a game that avowedly had a 20 level progression.  By the time we hit tenth level, people were looking around trying to find something relevant to spend their Talents and Foci on, because all the ones they were likely to be using had already been exhausted.



Just spitballin' blind here, but what would happen if you tried to hammer out something equivalent to the E6 idea for 3e, in effect eschewing those less-functional higher levels by capping play at a lower level?


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## Lord Mhoram

My three would be Pathfinder 1.0 - I just have all the stuff.

But for supported systems - Cypher and AGE (Fantasy and Modern)


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## Thomas Shey

Lanefan said:


> Just spitballin' blind here, but what would happen if you tried to hammer out something equivalent to the E6 idea for 3e, in effect eschewing those less-functional higher levels by capping play at a lower level?




You could.  You'd have to slow advancement way down to do it, and then there'd be little sense of it actually happening.  Probably be fine for some people, but its been my observation that most players would have a regular but incremental advancement than a slightly more substantial one that only happens once in a blue moon.


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## jdrakeh

My award-winning micro RPG, Nazi-Killing Bear Simulator, which is currently on sale for less than a dollar comes complete with the core game, an optional rules supplement, an adventure scenario, AND an SRD licensed under CC! *Get it here* (obviously an affiliate link).


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