# Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger



## miburo99 (Dec 17, 2015)

Hey folks!

I have been working on a character for a potential future FR campaign--a sun elf exile from Evermeet who is an antiques/curiosity shop owner by day, and a burglar/spy type by night. He uses a combination of thievery and arcane powers to "liberate" interesting items and to protect his city and friends from harm. 

Crunch-wise, this translates to a High Elf Arcane Trickster with Criminal Background. Stats: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 14 Wis 12, Cha 12 (may change, see below)

 My original plan was to go Rogue 20 and use a rapier with Greenflame Blade for scalable damage. Boost Dex/Int, take Resilient: Con (so will have Dex/Con/Wis save prof by level 15), and take Mobile around level 12 so that I can make use of the "Versatile Trickster" ability in combat while still being able to dart in and out of melee range w/o cunning action.

So: *Option 1*: Rogue 20 

Stats: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 14 Wis 12, Cha 12
Progression: Rogue 20. Duh.
Feats: 4 ASIs for Dex and Int, 2 for Resilient:Con and Mobile
Pros: Sneak Attack, scalable cantrip damage, very agile
Cons: Limited spellcasting, AC is not great

However, I've been looking more and more at Bladesinger and how it can really help this character. That AC bonus looks super tasty, as do the other various bonuses. You do lose some things though. Also would change the stats slightly to support this. (higher Int, lower Wiz/Cha)


*Option 2*: Rogue 18/Wizard 2

Stats: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wiz 10, Cha 10
Progression: Rogue 4 (to reach Dex +2, Wizard 2, Rogue the rest.
Feats: 4 ASIs for Dex and Int, 1 for Resilient Con
Pros: Gain Bladesinging, extra 1st level spells/rituals and cantrips
Cons: Lose Mobile feat so have to choose between Versatile Trickster and Cunning Action when  attacking. Also lose 4th level spells which sucks (no Improved Invisibility!). Also lose Stroke of Luck and +1d6 SA, which isn't too bad (happens so late anyway).

But wait...if we are willing to take Wizard, why not go a little bit higher? 5 more Wizard levels gets you 4th level spells (hello fireball and improved invisibility!) with more spell choices and long before an AT ever would, as well as 2 attacks per/round. Of course, you lose a lot in terms of Rogue abilities. See below:


*Option 3*: Rogue 13/Wizard 7

Stats: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wiz 10, Cha 10
Progression: Rogue 4, Wizard 7, Rogue the rest.
Feats: 4 ASIs for Dex and Int, 1 for Resilient Con
Pros: Gain Bladesinging, 4th level full wizard spell list, 2 attacks/round. Still get Versatile Trickster as a "capstone"
Cons: Lose Mobile feat as above, and a whole host of Rogue abilities (Slippery Mind, +3d6 SA, Stroke of Luck, etc.). ASI progression is somewhat backloaded.

Any thoughts on this? I'm leaning towards Option 1 or 3 at the moment, but not sure which. I'm not sure Option 2 is worth the tradeoff from full Rogue (4th level spells and Mobile, specifically).


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## Kithas (Dec 18, 2015)

Of those 3 I would definitely go option 3, the higher int will help with your gfb damage and having extra attack is always helpful to make sure you get at least one sneak attack per round. Wizard's spell slot recovery will also make your life much easier. Having access to real spells earlier will also be great, look to Melf's Minute meteors at 3rd level for a great use of your bonus action and Blur at 2nd if you are getting mobbed. Remember that you can only bladesing twice a day so don't go too far overboard. I would prioritize the mobile feat over resilient but that is my preference, you don't have a lot of survivability so you need to be able to hit and run, that said you need to _hit_ for that to work, Personally I would advise doing twf rather than just a rapier, gives you more chances to get that sneak in. You will have some issues with somatic/material components but there are ways around that.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 19, 2015)

I would dump Str to have 14 con. Although I usually would not do that. Maybe wizard 1st for wisdom saves, because you will be good enough at dexterity saves with evasion nd 20 dex late on. You can also be a wizard with 14 int for quite some time freeing up some stats. Anyway you do however will be fine. Multiclassing and single class is quite balanced.


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## FormerlyHemlock (Dec 20, 2015)

Kithas said:


> Of those 3 I would definitely go option 3, the higher int will help with your gfb damage and having extra attack is always helpful to make sure you get at least one sneak attack per round. Wizard's spell slot recovery will also make your life much easier. Having access to real spells earlier will also be great, look to Melf's Minute meteors at 3rd level for a great use of your bonus action and Blur at 2nd if you are getting mobbed. Remember that you can *only bladesing twice a day *so don't go too far overboard. I would prioritize the mobile feat over resilient but that is my preference, you don't have a lot of survivability so you need to be able to hit and run, that said you need to _hit_ for that to work, Personally I would advise doing twf rather than just a rapier, gives you more chances to get that sneak in. You will have some issues with somatic/material components but there are ways around that.




I think you mean "twice per short rest."

I've been looking at rogue/bladesinger lately for a test party, but from the other direction: a forest gnome Rogue 2/Bladesinger X. The idea is that he'll be the party scout and utility wizard (for things like Teleport, etc.), and in combat will rely on things like Fog Cloud + Booming Blade + Cunning Action (Hide) to do damage while not taking any in return. The test party is rogue-heavy (has a Paladin/Mastermind too) so will get a lot of good mileage out of obscurement spells.

By stopping at Rogue 2 I'll be missing out on things like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, but in DPR terms I think Booming Blade ought to be competitive with sneak attack.


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## miburo99 (Dec 20, 2015)

UngeheuerLich said:


> I would dump Str to have 14 con. Although I usually would not do that. Maybe wizard 1st for wisdom saves, because you will be good enough at dexterity saves with evasion nd 20 dex late on. You can also be a wizard with 14 int for quite some time freeing up some stats. Anyway you do however will be fine. Multiclassing and single class is quite balanced.




I think you’re right about the 14 con—depends on if I take resilient con over mobile. I don’t think mobile is as useful without versatile trickster, because I can always use cunning action to disengage, right?

Starting as Wizard for wisdom saves is nice, but then I lose rapier, which I really want to start with. Is losing wisdom saves going to be a big loss?



Hemlock said:


> I've been looking at rogue/bladesinger lately for a test party, but from the other direction: a forest gnome Rogue 2/Bladesinger X. The idea is that he'll be the party scout and utility wizard (for things like Teleport, etc.), and in combat will rely on things like Fog Cloud + Booming Blade + Cunning Action (Hide) to do damage while not taking any in return. The test party is rogue-heavy (has a Paladin/Mastermind too) so will get a lot of good mileage out of obscurement spells.
> 
> By stopping at Rogue 2 I'll be missing out on things like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, but in DPR terms I think Booming Blade ought to be competitive with sneak attack.




Interesting, I hadn't thought about Rogue 2/Bladesinger 18. Cunning Action for a Bladesinger seems super useful. Though it suits your gnome concept well, at first glance it leans too much wizard for my PC. Although from a skill monkey perspective you've already picked up most everything you need, I would want to at least Rogue 3 for the Mage Hand Legerdemain though, but then I lose Spell Mastery. 

Arrrgh so torn. Bladesinger seems like it adds a lot, but I do like the simplicity (and extra feats and lots of saves) of straight Rogue . 

Any other thoughts?


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## FormerlyHemlock (Dec 20, 2015)

miburo99 said:


> Arrrgh so torn. Bladesinger seems like it adds a lot, but I do like the simplicity (and extra feats and lots of saves) of straight Rogue .
> 
> Any other thoughts?




Well, here's one thought: Rogue with Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade becomes an absolute melee damage monster, especially with Sentinel. Your Rogue 18/Bladesinger 2 build could be doing 9d8+18d6+10 points of damage in a round (under ideal circumstances: Booming Blade hits, then you hide, then the enemy wanders past you (triggering an attack) while looking for you or attacks one of your buddies (triggering an attack)), which blows my paltry 40ish points of damage per round right out of the water. That's probably fair, since you've invested so much in it, and since melee is so much more dangerous than ranged combat.

So definitely don't feel like you have to pump a lot of levels into Bladesinger. I'm doing it because the party needs a wizard and the party needs a scout, and this allows me to do both while maintaining my character concept as a miniature highly-mobile swashbuckler (think: Yoda from Revenge of the Sith).

Going Rogue-heavy is completely valid. If you like simplicity, go for it.


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## Bardbarian (Dec 20, 2015)

I feel a 10/10 split has a lot of potential. You get 5 stat bumps, 5th level spells, 2 attacks with bonus 5d6 sneak on one, disadvantage to enemy saves when hidden, and tons of utility. Not necessarily stronger than the other splits mentioned, but holds it's own and has a good feel to it. The sweet spot is 9 rogue/6 wiz so depends on when you start and how long you are willing to wait.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 20, 2015)

What I really like is that we are discussing many potential splits. Its awesom how multiclassing allows more than one optimal combination.


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## Kithas (Dec 21, 2015)

Ilya said:


> I feel a 10/10 split has a lot of potential. You get 5 stat bumps, 5th level spells, 2 attacks with bonus 5d6 sneak on one, disadvantage to enemy saves when hidden, and tons of utility. Not necessarily stronger than the other splits mentioned, but holds it's own and has a good feel to it. The sweet spot is 9 rogue/6 wiz so depends on when you start and how long you are willing to wait.




Honestly I Can't see a reason to go 10/10 rather than 11/9 or 9/11, the level 11 stuff for every class is very big, and shouldn't be missed. You do get one more asi from rogue but if you went 11 rogue and 9 wizard you would still get that *and *you would get 6d6 sneak attack and you're other rogue 11 ability(dont have my phb handy :/) Wizard 10 doesn't give you anything new really, I could see Wizard 11 as you get 6th level spells!


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## john21wall (Dec 24, 2015)

And it's great in this game that can be used much the optimal combination


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