# Alternatives to PCGen



## Galfridus (Jan 14, 2003)

After another bout of PCGen just plain getting stuff wrong, I'm looking for another d20 character generation program. I need something that's flexible enough to handle the splatbooks and ITCK psionics (though I'm happy to do the customizing myself). I have not heard good things about e-tools...but maybe it's better with the patch, who knows. Is there anything else out there?


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## Henry (Jan 14, 2003)

Roleplaying Master and Twin Rose's Campaign Suite are good choices. I will post the links in a minute.

www.twinrose.net
www.roleplayingmaster.com

As for the splatbooks, are you by chance using the old PCGen files right now (pre 3.0) to do those?If so, it is far better to put those in manually than to add those files, because of all the changes that even the .LST converter cannot handle.


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## Galfridus (Jan 14, 2003)

(Sorry for posting this in the wrong place!)

I'm using the old files as a baseline, but making manual changes as needed (i.e., rather than fix all the prestige classes, I've fixed the ones that are being used in my campaign). It's possible that these files are responsible for some errors, but PCGen is also goofing up some plain vanilla characters (a dwarvish fighter, for example).


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## merton_monk (Jan 14, 2003)

A lot of ETools users have found Davin's ETools Helper to be a great, um, help.   ETools Helper makes adding stuff to the database quite easy, and it makes sharing files (like the splat books) possible as well.  I'm not sure what all splatbooks have been made into files for use with ETools, but I'm sure someone here can post a link to the site where they have been gathering them.

TwinRose's CampaignSuite is for sale (i.e. not free) and includes a lot more than just a character generator, though if all you want is a character generator, I think that portion of it is free.

RolePlayMaster is also for sale and does more than just character generation.  I'm not sure of the price nor if there's any kind of free 'trial period' of if it's character generator portion is free.

I've heard of various excel character sheets where you can type in the info and its all updated for you, other than that I'm not aware of any other character generators.  Oh, there's always Jamis Buck's nifty generator, but that was only for the races/classes/etc in the PHB.  Did he ever include more?  I know he was recently talking about getting back into it again, and his generator had a working connection to PCGen.  It'd be nice if he updated it for use with more material and updated the connection to PCGen. 

Oh - btw - what exactly did PCGen get wrong?  I've never known a piece of software to be without bugs, but I like to be given the chance to fix whatever is wrong with any software I write. 

Bryan McRoberts
Code Monkey Publishing, Co-Founder (www.codemonkeypublishing.com)
Benevolent Dictator of PCGen (pcgen.sourceforge.net)


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## Galfridus (Jan 14, 2003)

Here's what my players noticed wrong last night -- I'm sure there's other stuff as well.

1) Damage wrong for the archer: +1 magic +1 Mighty longbow, Weapon Specializaiton, Point Blank shot, normal arrows, PCGen lists damage as 1d8+7 at 30 ft and 1d8+4 at other ranges. By my math it should be 1d8+5 and 1d8+3.

2) Somehow over versions, the stats for a dwarf character were altered -- most went up by 1 inexplicably.

3) Attack bonuses for the dwarf character were off -- I'm still looking into the details on this one.

I would love to see these fixed, but PCGen has had nagging issues like this for a while. It's hard to use the program if I can't trust the basic numbers on the character sheets.


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## scarymonkey (Jan 14, 2003)

When I tried it, it always gave me the wrong number of feats allowed.  It gave everyone 3 feats at first level.


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## merton_monk (Jan 14, 2003)

In 4.2.6 there is an issue with Arcane Archers getting magical arrow bonuses added to their class ability for enchanted arrows if you load the magical arrows into your bow.  I believe this has already been addressed.  The output sheet was changed and resulted in a great many improvements and this one bug.  Most software is like that, we do our best to test for quality assurance, but due to the scope of the material we provide and the amount of custom material our users have, it's impossible to check everything.  Generally when we add something new and it breaks anything old, fixing that is our top priority and it's usually fixed that day.

I'm not aware of dwarvish stats all going up by 1. Are you referring to Str, Int, Wis, etc.?  From which version to which version did you notice this change?  That could lead to a change in your dwarf's attack bonus.

I'm also not aware of an issue with everyone getting 3 feats at first level.  First level human fighters do (one of them is from the fighter-list of feats, but PCGen lets you cancel out of that and use the feat selection from the total list of feats if you so desire which would result in 3 choices).  Version number and race of characters would be useful details to look further into this problem.

We have a very active board at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/pcgen where most questions are answered fairly quickly.  There are a lot of knowledgeable users who are glad to help with learning to use PCGen, and many of the code monkeys hang out there looking for bug reports.  The documentation in PCGen has been vastly improved over the last couple of months, so between the documentation and the yahoo group, support is pretty well covered.

Bryan McRoberts
Code Monkey Publishing, Co-Founder (www.codemonkeypublishing.com)
Benevolent Dictator of PCGen (pcgen.sourceforge.net)


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## Ysgarran (Jan 14, 2003)

merton_monk said:
			
		

> *
> We have a very active board at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/pcgen where most questions are answered fairly quickly.  There are a lot of knowledgeable users who are glad to help with learning to use PCGen, and many of the code monkeys hang out there looking for bug reports.  The documentation in PCGen has been vastly improved over the last couple of months, so between the documentation and the yahoo group, support is pretty well covered.
> 
> Bryan McRoberts
> ...



This is what I'm most curious about and what I'm waiting for:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen/message/54462

As the note says, there isn't much to say on this front.   Although I should note that once some of the supporting editors are (plural?) finished adding your own information should be much easier.

Ysgarran.


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## Galfridus (Jan 14, 2003)

The archer character is a Fighter 4/Rogue 3/OOBI 1/DS 1 with no magical arrows in their inventory. I also just tried this with the latest autobuild and it was still happening. 

Believe me, I do understand that bugs are an inherent part of the software life cycle. It just seems to me that PCGen has more than its share of bugs that affect core numbers on the sheet -- to me, keeping those base numbers accurate should be the #1 priority. Often, this doesn't seem to be the case.

As for the dwarf issue: the actual characteristics (Str, Dex, etc.) went up by 1, probably when loading from an older version (4.2.2 or so). You're right that this probably is what messed up the BAB.


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## merton_monk (Jan 14, 2003)

Hm - could you email me your archer's pcg file?  send it to merton.monk@codemonkeypublishing.com and I'll debug it tonight.  Keeping the character sheet numbers correct is our #1 priority, but collateral damage does occur.  When it's significant enough we do an emergency release outside of the regular wednesday-night release cycle.  This doesn't happen often, but it does happen.   Could you give me details on what your dwarf's stats *used* to be?  Maybe I can figure out why they suddenly went up by 1.

As for ysgarran's wondering about the post he referenced... I could tell you, but then I'd have to send a fleet of Summoner Assassins after you.  My chief assassin, Buttercup, is currently level 10 and wields a nasty wakasashi!

Bryan McRoberts
Code Monkey Publishing, Co-Founder
Benevolent Dictator of PCGen


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## Twin Rose (Jan 14, 2003)

It's quite true that small bugs find their way into programs through their lifecycles, and the third edition rules are changing so much through various publications that keeping on top of them can help re-introduce bugs that we didn't want to be there.  (Well, who does want them in there?)

Much like us at Twin Rose, the Codemonkey folks are quite thorough about fixing them when called to attention and getting updates posted with some regularity.

Really, what the decision you make should be based on is what you want the product to do.  If you want support for 3rd party applications, and easy-to-use editors to enter in your own PRCs (or those from splatbooks, when they cannot be found on the net) I recommend CS.  We include editors that we TRY to make as thorough as possible.  (Remember, the d20 system changes a lot with different books, and who can foresee what a publisher will come up with next?)

For just character creation, we have a player's only edition that costs under 10 dollars.  PCGen, on cross platform machines, and if you like Java, I understand to be really thorough and complete in the chargen area.  I can't say I use it much, I don't like using others softwares for fear of 'tainting' my own creative process.

I'm not even sure if Roleplaying Master DOES chargen - it may be that it's just a management tool.  Luke would better answer that.


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## BarakO (Jan 14, 2003)

Galfridus said:
			
		

> *Here's what my players noticed wrong last night -- I'm sure there's other stuff as well.
> 
> 1) Damage wrong for the archer: +1 magic +1 Mighty longbow, Weapon Specializaiton, Point Blank shot, normal arrows, PCGen lists damage as 1d8+7 at 30 ft and 1d8+4 at other ranges. By my
> math it should be 1d8+5 and 1d8+3.
> ...




Hmmm.  What is the archers strength?  Skipping that for the moment...

Weapon Spec. = +2 damage under 30 ft
PBS = +1 damage under 30 ft

Your calcs are wrong...  There's a 3 point spread between PB and the first normal range, not 2, using the situation you describe, regardless of any other modifiers.

And I bet the rest of it is that your fighter has a high strength (I'd bet on a +4 STR mod) so is getting more than +1 to damage from his Mighty bow.


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## Luke (Jan 15, 2003)

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> *I'm not even sure if Roleplaying Master DOES chargen - it may be that it's just a management tool.  Luke would better answer that. *




RolePlayingMaster is into chargen in a very big way.

There are about 5 methods to create PCs/NPCs and monsters, but the "Character wizard" method takes you thoroughly through all the steps to create characters.
Its a very flexible chargen, going to the extent of clearly breaking up abilities into components for dice rolls, age, template effects and racial, level bonuses adjustments. If you play a race with low standard ability scores, RPM will do the correct dice to ability scaling, recognizing the difference between Int and other abilities.

The latest changes (in beta) throw up appropriate SubType selection lists when you take feats such as Weapon Specialization. I'm getting DM reports  now that even new players that don't really yet understand 3rd edition mechanics can generate their characters.

As per Galfridus' query about splatbook and psionics - RPM has a sophisticated "Sources" management system which allow you to extend or create Source packages containing classes, races, feats, items, spells etc . Editors are provided for entering game mechanics detail (modifiers, and even scripts, if required), and you can export and share your Sources. For example, Psionics comes in the base package (you can "turn it on"), and D20 Modern is a separate free download.
The latest doco explains how the Sources and game mechanics detail (modifiers and scripts) all works.

What RPM means by "Character management", is that you can look after your character in RPM throughout its life. You can keep track of XP, and class levelling, and manage in-game capabilities.
For in-game, RPM goes beyond the standard approach for character statblocks and sheets, by allowing you to select your options, and then recalculating your stats. Your "Options" include things such as equipping items that have game mechanics effects, and choices for points in feats like Power Attack or Expertise, or simple choices for feats like "Rapid Shot" (take a penalty to get an extra shot). You can also control options for things such as Barbarian rage, or the Monks option to use her Monk's BAB and Flurry Of Blows (useful for multi-classes Monks). 
The latest version makes it easier for you to  directly perform attacks and skill checks etc from the Character window.

Regards,


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## Galfridus (Jan 15, 2003)

BarakO said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hmmm.  What is the archers strength?  Skipping that for the moment...
> 
> ...




Oops, right you are about the difference, but I'm pretty sure PCGen is still getting the math wrong. Here are the relevant stats:

+1 Strength bonus
+1 Bow (+1 Mighty as well)
+2 from Weapon Specialization
+1 Point Blank Shot
+0 from Normal Arrows

That should be +5, +2 at long range; PCGen is saying +7, +4 at long range. We spent a good 15 minutes on and off during a combat trying to figure out where the extra +2 came from, but no one could figure it out (and it made quite a difference, as they were fighting something with 10/+1 damage reduction).


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## BarakO (Jan 15, 2003)

Galfridus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oops, right you are about the difference, but I'm pretty sure PCGen is still getting the math wrong. Here are the relevant stats:
> 
> ...




Hmmm...  that's strange.

I'll keep investigating.  I'm in charge of the sheets for PCGen right now so it really irks me when they put out bad info.


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## Duncan Haldane (Jan 16, 2003)

Hey, BarakO - I've wondered for a while if it might be possible to have a PCGen output sheet that showed each modifier added to totals for debugging purposes.

Would that be possible?  Easy?

thanks,

Duncan


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## BarakO (Jan 16, 2003)

Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> *Hey, BarakO - I've wondered for a while if it might be possible to have a PCGen output sheet that showed each modifier added to totals for debugging purposes.
> 
> Would that be possible?  Easy?
> *




At this time, only in a rough way.  

Frex:  We can get (read: have output tokens for) the total adjustment from feats for the AC, but not the adjustment from each individual feat affecting that modifier. 

We haven't really pursued it too much because the code guys simply track the variables within the program when chasing bugs.  No need to go to the extra step of outputting a sheet to check a number.  

Galfridus:  Bryan found the cause of the problem with the extra +2 damage you had and it was corrected in time for last night's release.


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## merton_monk (Jan 16, 2003)

As far as having an output sheet list all the bonuses goes... on some things you can.  If you're at all familiar with our data files you know that they rely heavily on BONUS: tags. e.g. BONUS:COMBAT|AC|1 would add one to your AC.  BONUS:COMBAT|AC|1|TYPE=Enchantment would add one to your AC and give it a type "Enhancement" and would enforce the stacking rules on it.

In an output sheet you can have |BONUS.COMBAT.AC.LISTING| and it will list all the bonuses on the character that came from BONUS:COMBAT|AC tags.  It will show the totals after having enforced the stacking rules.  

Bryan McRoberts
Code Monkey Publishing, Co-Founder
Benevolent Dictator of PCGen


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## Henry (Jan 17, 2003)

Incidentally:

I caught the release of version 4.2.7 yesterday.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.


The feat and race LST editors are wonderful!!!!


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## Duncan Haldane (Jan 17, 2003)

BarakO said:
			
		

> *
> We haven't really pursued it too much because the code guys simply track the variables within the program when chasing bugs.  No need to go to the extra step of outputting a sheet to check a number.  *




Sure, I appreciate that, but as a user I often look at a total and wonder if it's correct.  Backtracking it, I find it is most of the time.  If such an output sheet were available I would simply do a print preview of that sheet, and voila, I can check where the total comes from.

Anyway, it was just a thought.  I'm running RttToEE at the moment, and so I've been putting the NPCs into PCGen (some were already done, but it was in version 2.something, so they are quite out of date).  Anyway, I can compare the PCgen totals with what's listed in the module, and try to figure out which is right if there is a difference.  

Anyway, thanks,

Duncan


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## smetzger (Jan 17, 2003)

Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> *Anyway, it was just a thought.  I'm running RttToEE at the moment, and so I've been putting the NPCs into PCGen (some were already done, but it was in version 2.something, so they are quite out of date).  Anyway, I can compare the PCgen totals with what's listed in the module, and try to figure out which is right if there is a difference.  *




Take a look at my Hommlet NPC's on the Yahoo group in the Files->Hommlet section.  I made this file with those PCGen 2.7 files.  If you want I can send you the template for the stat blocks.

Also, please post any new PCGen files that you create to the Yahoo Group.

*:> Scott


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## Duncan Haldane (Jan 17, 2003)

smetzger said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Take a look at my Hommlet NPC's on the Yahoo group in the Files->Hommlet section.  I made this file with those PCGen 2.7 files.  If you want I can send you the template for the stat blocks.
> 
> ...




I did, Scott.  That's where I started from, updating them all to version 4.  Thanks for all the work you put into them.  

I'm now up to the CRM - I hope to put them on the yahoo group, but they also require some special files that are no longer available in PCGen - ie, the RttToEE files from the pre-D20 compliant days of PCGen - and I'm not sure if I should post those.

Duncan


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## Twin Rose (Jan 17, 2003)

Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I did, Scott.  That's where I started from, updating them all to version 4.  Thanks for all the work you put into them.
> 
> ...




Posting content not covered by the Open Gaming License is probably going to get you in trouble - it's basically piracy.

By the way, I am starting to think that the fellows question has been answered, and that this thread is going off on quite a tangent - please look at the topic of this thread.


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## smetzger (Jan 17, 2003)

*RttToEE files*



			
				Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I did, Scott.  That's where I started from, updating them all to version 4.  Thanks for all the work you put into them.  *




I didn't make the PCGen files, just the .rtf file that is a statblock output of the PCGen files.



			
				Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> *
> I'm now up to the CRM - I hope to put them on the yahoo group, but they also require some special files that are no longer available in PCGen - ie, the RttToEE files from the pre-D20 compliant days of PCGen - and I'm not sure if I should post those.
> *




There already are word docs of the CRM that have the map on the left and then almost all of the applicable statblocks on the right.  You may want to take a look at those.


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## Duncan Haldane (Jan 18, 2003)

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> *Posting content not covered by the Open Gaming License is probably going to get you in trouble - it's basically piracy.
> *




I understand this interpretation, but since it's just stats of NPCs in a module, and not the module itself, they cannot replace the module.  To DM RttToEE someone still needs the module.  This is different to books of feats/spells/prestige classes etc that can face a lot of duplication in PCGen by being coded.

By having the NPCs available as PCGen files, to me, makes the module much more playable - I find it frustrating to have to flick between the section of the module where the PCs are at the time, to the section/alphabetical listing of NPCs at the back, and then also to the DMG and MM for other NPCs/Monsters not covered in the module.  Some of the combats in RttToEE can have a lot of combatants, and looking through all the different sources during game time can be time consuming and annoying.  I believe that if any change in sale occurs because of the PCGen files, it would be to INCREASE sales because potential DMs knows that this is available, rather than decrease because of "piracy".



> *By the way, I am starting to think that the fellows question has been answered, and that this thread is going off on quite a tangent - please look at the topic of this thread.   *




Oh, I'm aware of the topic, sorry for the tangent.

Duncan


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## Twin Rose (Jan 18, 2003)

Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I understand this interpretation, but since it's just stats of NPCs in a module, and not the module itself, they cannot replace the module.  To DM RttToEE someone still needs the module.  This is different to books of feats/spells/prestige classes etc that can face a lot of duplication in PCGen by being coded.
> 
> ...




I believe their lawyers would have a different take, really.  Theyare obligated to protect their property.  It's unfortunate, I think, especially since so many campaigns involve 'extending' modules into further adventures - but there you have it.  I guess the safe bet is to ask them, I'm not a lawyer.


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## Galfridus (Jan 20, 2003)

*Credit where it's due*

Time to get this thread back on-topic. 

I evaluated both CampaignSuite and Roleplaying Master, as these seemed to be the best two alternatives. 

Roleplaying Master seemed like an excellent program, but I must admit I was overwhelmed by the tremendous amount of stuff added in to address in-game issues. If I was using my PC during sessions, I would have seriously considered switching to this; as I don't, I didn't want to make the effort.

CampaignSuite seemed like it was still growing a bit; I didn't run into any showstopping bugs or anything, but overall it felt a little bare. 

Meanwhile, the PCGen fellows had discovered and addressed all of the issues which caused me such great concern. I'm still a little worried about data integrity in PCGen, and a little upset that I have to be worried like that, but I've decided to stick with it for the time being. Thanks to the PCGen monkeys (and higher life forms) for fixing those bugs!


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## Breakdaddy (Jan 22, 2003)

When I grow up I want to be a PCGen monkey!


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## Luke (Jan 22, 2003)

*Re: Credit where it's due*



			
				Galfridus said:
			
		

> *Roleplaying Master seemed like an excellent program, but I must admit I was overwhelmed by the tremendous amount of stuff added in to address in-game issues. If I was using my PC during sessions, I would have seriously considered switching to this; as I don't, I didn't want to make the effort.
> *




RolePlayingMaster is in constant development.
Initially, I'm getting all the capabilities in there, for whatever you need.
Slowly, as the "full features" mature, more time is available for separating the different modes ( player PC Generation vs. DM full adventure preparation vs. In-game play), by improving the user interface to hide things appropriately.

Generally speaking, if you don't want in-game stuff, you don't need to touch it.
The first three sections of the "Outlook bar" are "Creatures" (PC generator functions), "Prepare" (adventures), and then "Play" (Start/manage encounters, use Battlemap and XP calc).

If you stick to the section appropriate for what you do want, there really isn't an issue of being overwhelmed with things you don't want.

Sure, you can delve into areas you find confusing, but that's your choice. Its also a future option for expanding your view of how helpful a computer may be at the gaming table - particularly as the features become more and more attractive.

Regards,


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