# How do you like your dragons?



## Psion (Nov 22, 2002)

This thread came up over at RPGnet. What do you think? How do you characterize dragons in your game?

(Yeah, yeah, save the cullinary jokes.)

As for me, in my game, dragons tend to fall into one of two major characterizations:

1) Forces of nature. Dragons were descended from two true elemental dragons who gave birth too immense powerful dragons beyond mortal comprehension. Over the eons, dragons have become less powerful than their forebears, and more mortal, but they still represent a raw, primal force of nature that can be unleashed at any time.

2) Toadies of the gods. Neutral dragons are beholden to the LN god of dragons and arbirters. When the divine council creates a decree, it is the dragons who carry it out.


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## Desdichado (Nov 22, 2002)

3)  Mythological.  My players rarely (if ever) actually see a dragon, even if they do exist.

4)  An ancient race, almost extinct (at least from the locale) that existed before humankind.  Neither forces or nature nor toadies of the gods -- just an independent sentient race that happens to be more powerful than the current rulers of the world.  Falls in line with the common mythological archetype of past golden ages, silver ages, bronze ages and the current "clay age."


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## Piratecat (Nov 22, 2002)

5) Socioeconomic forces that shape nations, trade, and foreign policies. A dragon who wants to throw its weight around could build an empire up around it, populated by humans with too much to lose.  In one minute, a motivated dragon can destroy the labor of years. For most people, it's easier to propitiate the dragon and meet its demands than it is to risk losing everything.


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## MerakSpielman (Nov 22, 2002)

6. The true sorcerers. They disdain the wizardly attempts at understanding magic through intellect and logic. They are both born from magic and give birth to magic.
All dragons in my game have levels of sorcerer - making the older ones even more dangerous.


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## mkletch (Nov 22, 2002)

I tend to use them in two particular roles: 

1) enforcers of cosmic balance or decree
2) an ancient, dying race passed it heyday

If the latter, they tend to get used as adventure villains.  For the former, dragons tend to be used as powerful, recurring NPCs that have campaign plot threads woven about them.  The recurring NPCs have even ruled realms, large & small.

Sometimes, I even use them in both roles; some dragons follow their original divine mandate, others have become more petty (compared to the enforcers), but are still powerful creatures that have their own agendas.

-Fletch!


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## mkletch (Nov 22, 2002)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *6. The true sorcerers. They disdain the wizardly attempts at understanding magic through intellect and logic. They are both born from magic and give birth to magic.
> All dragons in my game have levels of sorcerer - making the older ones even more dangerous. *




Do you stack their sorcerer levels with their innate ability?

-Fletch!


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## Asathas (Nov 22, 2002)

*Two more answers...*

7) Children of the gods.  They were amongst the first creations of the gods and are the last semi-divine permanent residents of the prime material.  They are neither servants of the gods nor their enemies but forces of nature unto themselves.

8) Grand chess players. Those that involve themselves in mortal affairs do so from  behind the scenes, motivating grand changes, wars, alliances, and powers in the mortal world... often without the participants being aware of the masters that pull their strings.

FWIW... my campaign uses them as both 7 and 8.


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## Quickbeam (Nov 22, 2002)

IMC, they're sorta like a combination of #1 from Psion's post and #5 as described in Piratecat's post, with a bit of extra special magical flavor to them.  I don't know how good an answer or description that provides, but there ya go .


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## Bastoche (Nov 22, 2002)

With ketchup


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## Gez (Nov 22, 2002)

mkletch said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Do you stack their sorcerer levels with their innate ability?
> 
> -Fletch! *




It's how WotC do them. See the Wyrm of the North column. The latest Iymrith or a spelling like that, is an ancient blue dragon with 7 level of sorcerer, and is considered a level 20-sorcerer. However, for purpose of a familiar -- if she did have one -- she would probably only be considered level 7.


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## Psion (Nov 22, 2002)

I treat any virtual sorcerer casting levels like "+1 caster levels" in prestige classes. Thus a dragon with wizard or bard (or heck, even divine spellcaster level) can combine them with the monster spellcasting levels.


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## roytheodd (Nov 22, 2002)

Illuminati - the power they wield is so great that they have their hands on the levers of the world.


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## Crothian (Nov 22, 2002)

I just have them as other creatures, many personalities.  Some get powerful, some don't.  I had a group of dragons that had a weekly poker going.


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## Wolf72 (Nov 22, 2002)

not to old ... otherwise they get big ...and epic ... and eat PC's ... but like the idea of numerous younger dragons ...

um right, I'm getting visions of a dragon cartel, there'd be the really old one in charge ... and several younger guys all vying for 'not to be destroyed by mom/dad but still get powerful and rich'


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## I'm A Banana (Nov 22, 2002)

I once ran a campaign where all the dragons were, in fact, dinosaurs...

So you had T-Rexes breathing acid and Velociraptors with level-draining powers, and Brachiosaurs with immense cones of flame spiralling out of their bodies....

Lots of draconic fun (had to whip up my own "draconic" template, but it was worth it...).

More recently, I'm playing a kobold, so they're obviously idols to worship and live up to.

And then there's the campaign I run in a postapocalyptic world where the Dragons are just about the best critters around, and nobody messes with them if they don't want to end up a stain on the pavement.


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## MerakSpielman (Nov 22, 2002)

mkletch said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Do you stack their sorcerer levels with their innate ability?
> 
> -Fletch! *




Yes.

The levels, to me, represent time devoted to honing their innate ability. Even without that time, a comatose dragon will get their innate abilities as time passes. That is part of the magic of dragons.


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## takyris (Nov 22, 2002)

9) Dangerous and mysterious and balanced.

For chromatic dragons, I swapped the mental stats so that Red Dragons were huge, powerful idiots, and White dragons were smaller, weaker geniuses who could cast spells no one in the world had ever heard of. Blue dragons are arrogant but honorable, green dragons exist pretty much as written, and black dragons are almost as smart as the whites, and lurk out there in the swamps planning their next victory.

For metallic dragons, I did some stat-swapping and gave them more specializations. Silver dragons, as per all the books, are master shapeshifters. Brass dragons are kings of the sky (bonus to AC while in the air, and gets Good maneuverability at all age categories, while dropping down one from the listed size). Bronze dragons are the kings of breath weapons (they take the damage of the gold and combine it with the ability to shape it and do metamagic feats on it), Copper dragons are the masters of magic (Best spell progression), and Gold dragons are, while not as intelligent as the rest, the most powerful melee combatants in the world. (DR equal to (1/2 Age)/-, and free Weapon Focus and Specialization on all natural weapons.)

In my campaign, any dragon egg can hatch as any color or metal -- while in the egg, the dragon takes tests that determine its color. Chromatic dragons are said to have failed some important test. Metallic dragons are certainly GOOD, but not necessarily nice, and are dealing with threats that most PCs have never even heard of. Consequently, they will still destroy a village or tear a bunch of PCs to ribbons if the PCs get snippity or ignore requests to leave.

-Takyris


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## mkletch (Nov 22, 2002)

Ooh, takyris, that is tasty.  That is the best 'non-standard' option yet.

-Fletch!


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## Henry (Nov 22, 2002)

I prefer them as Dangerous at all levels. 

at low age, I would prefer dragons to be small, yet swift and dangerous. With the exception of Reds, Silvers, and Golds, most dragons start out small. Dragons should have a much higher dexterity than they do at low levels, because think about it - if a creature ends up big as a small mansion with a DEX of 10, what must have their DEX's been like when they were younger and much smaller? Dragons start out much more agile, and just plain more raveous and nasty at young levels.

To face a dragon should be unpredictable, and risky at best - even a good dragon.


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## Nightfall (Nov 22, 2002)

While I prefer to use lesser kinds or even off shoots of dragons, TRUE dragons (the ones in MM and MM2) I see as powerful, cunning, dangerous, some times trustworthy. They are also powerful beings of tremendous magical ability and natural beings on occasion. Definately NOT toadies to the gods, though some might be turned to such things.


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## Victim (Nov 22, 2002)

Big.

I don't like using the tiny, wimpy dragons as major foes.  Granted, tiny and wimpy are only relative.  However, I don't like the idea of characters being Dragon Slayers at level 3 because they went through the Sunless Citadel and defeated a hatchling white.  If it's not bigger than a car, then it's not a real dragon.


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## Olive (Nov 22, 2002)

big. poweful. rare. the oldest race, tied to creation of all things.

i justify the insane variety of dragons by making them kinda like spirits... theres a type of dragon tied to everything cos dragons created the world... or their gods did...

i've just finished reading the liveship traders trilogy by robin hobb, and that made me think a lot about how dragon would relate to humans...


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## Ravellion (Nov 22, 2002)

Apathetic. Slow metabolism when they want it. Most are content to sleep for ages without doing anyhting, they'll just grow on magic alone. Every now and then, something challenging or interesting comes up. However, how interesting is stuff that is so easily squashed beneath your claw, or incinerated by your breathweapon. Yawn. Rather be sleeping on this gold I have accumulated in only 0.5% of my lifetime.

In my previous campaign, I had 15 months in my year, and since there are 15 dragons (with the gem ones), they were tied to the dragons. However, there was an actual tie. They became mindless monsters when "their" full moon came up.

Rav


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## tabrumj (Nov 23, 2002)

Basted in a wine and butter sauce, stuffed with enough bread stuffing to fead an army, and served with the finest Riesling wine. All of the above should of course be served on gold platters amde from the Dragons hoard. 

Sorry Psion, I had to. Actuaaally the above is a pretty good recipe for turkey.


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## Kyramus (Nov 23, 2002)

Foodwise: medium rare.

Game wise, I run dragons in two categories.
The offspring which are the dragons and what is listed.
and the Draghons, which are elder dragons.

Pick the biggest baddest dragon in the MM or otherwise, then add in 40 class levels. That's a Draghon.
The Draghons are immortal and have been traveling or sleeping.

Draghons are one of the four elder races.
The others being Tytans (predecessor to Titans).
Phaenix (predecessor to Phoenix)
and the Krakentuar (predecessor to Krakens).

That's just in my campaign world. It fits well as these elder races have unwittingly sealed each other from the world and the gods came and took their place in the vacuum of power.

Obviously the elder races are trying to return, but who knows when and how they will.

Worse still, with the coming of gods came the Baatezu and Tanari.


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## Bagpuss (Nov 23, 2002)

9. Skinned and worn as Epic armour.

B.A.D.D. members please ignore this obvious troll.


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## Kweezil (Nov 23, 2002)

Ancient, powerful, unearthly agile (nothing more graceful than a skyborne dragon). One of the four eldest races, forged from Fire, with the various types and subraces representing different forms and aspects.

The chromatics are Fire as the Destroyer (white - ice so cold it burns, blue - burning desolation of the desert, red - the firestorm etc.), metallics are Fire as the Forger and gems are Fire as the Unknowable.


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## jgbrowning (Nov 23, 2002)

i'm in the minority here... 

I'd like 'em out of my monster books.  They take up to much space that more useful creatures could occupy.

joe b.


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## mythusmage (Nov 23, 2002)

*Something to Entertain You From...*

_Walking with Dragons_ 

Dragons are old. Fossils have been found dating back to the early Jurassic, and genetic studies indicate they may very well date back as a distinct group to the early Triassic. They are most closely related to the crocodilians on one hand, and avians on the other. Indeed, they are more closely related to mammals than they are to lizards, snakes, and turtles.

In contrast, the species we know are younger than man, being descended from a small, gray colored beast that dwelt in the mountains of Central Asia. While their larger cousins were being driven into extinction by the Ice Ages, these clever animals were advancing in intellect and size, and changing colors. To become the silvers, reds, green, and coppers we know today.

(N.B.: it should be noted that "small" in this case is relative, the typical gray dragon of the time being a 1 ton animal.)

Of all the different types of dragon the reds are considered the most successful. This group is comprised of the Red Dragon, along with the Copper, Brass, Bronze, and Gold. The most adaptable group consists of the White and Silver dragons. With the Silver more than making up for their primitive cousins. The final group consists of the Green, Blue, and Black dragons, though it is possible the Blue is more closely related to the Silver Dragon than to the other two. Genetic testing is still being done.

The dragons of my world are dangerous, intelligent, cunning, sly, duplicitous, honorable, treacherous, and above all, very amused by the primate sapients. They love shiny things, intellectual pursuits, being obscenely wealthy, and running the world from the shadows. To quote a certain Gold Dragon I know, "Oh, we conquered the world tens of thousands of years ago. But you got so upset about it we decided to let you think you were running the place."

Alawn Chuillaugh (For Alan Kellogg, who otherwise threatened to stop sending news about the doings on _Firefly_ if I didn't.)


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 23, 2002)

With ketchup?


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## Skarp Hedin (Nov 23, 2002)

In my current campaign, they're large dangerous monsters with animal intelligence.  They are more cunning than animals of course, probably around Int 3 maybe.  I haven't fully plotted out their intelligence and etc.  They've got no magical abilities, and are classified as Beasts.

There are different colors, but so far they all breathe either fire or acid, and acid is extremely rare.

They are, however, favored targets for demons looking to possess something dangerous, which has given rise to myths about intelligent talking dragons.  Clerics generally try to educate people that the intelligent dragons are just demons riding in a giant lizard body, but rumors persist.


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## jdavis (Nov 23, 2002)

Top of the foodchain. In our Campaign dragons are the ultimate Monster native to the Prime Material Plane(we have yet to encounter a Metallic one), Alot depends on the type, and it's age but we always respect a good fight with a Dragon, It's a big deal when one turns up, they are fairly rare and extremely feared, but for the most part they are just another Monster.


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## Dark Dragon (Nov 23, 2002)

IMC, dragons come shortly after the gods regarding their power. They use all their abilities, innate magic, superior tactics and minions to get rid of a problem. Dragons are one of the oldest races. Evil dragons are plain unpredictable and arrogant at best and ravaging monsters at worst (or both on the same day  ). Good dragons are sometimes moody, sometimes helpful, but in the first instance, there is no doubt who makes the rules. They're sometimes sought for an advice and live in reclusive areas. Epic dragons could even rule a whole continent (or world) but are unlikely to be met (and those who encountered them rarely have an occasion to tell the story).
The group I'm currently DMing never managed it to kill a dragon as long as I am DM. They encountered Balagos (Red Great Wyrm) several times and were forced to serve him: the party had to remove the traps in Azurphax' lair before Balagos showed up and finished off the smaller Green Dracolich. The pay: the PCs life and loss of several magic items to the wyrm...Brown, black and other red dragons caused heavy damage before the dragon retreated (and plans its next step).
Yep, dragons are really versatile and powerful


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## Celtavian (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re*

Ancient creatures of great cunning and magical power who ruled the world until other races grew in magical power. The only reason dragons don't rule now is because of their slow reproduction and territorial nature. They will not suffer other dragons, even their own young, to live within their territory and they will not form collective armies. 

Dragons view many of the other races as formidable and seek to avoid conflict with them. They understand that individually they are more powerful, but they are less numerous. The dragons understand that humans and other races often fight collectively and will willingly sacrifice one or many of their own to destroy the threat of a dragon. This make battling the lesser races a dangerous conflict that will most likely result in their own destruction while not really affecting the other races who can reproduce faster.

Dragons understand that they will never be able to work together as humans and other races do, so they have removed themselves from the visible rulership of the world. They now reside in places where humans cannot easily reside or venture to, and they ruthlessly hold their territory making it just as dangerous for humans or other races to encroach upon their lands. They only hope that no other race decides to make a concentrated effort take what they have resulting in a conflict to the death.

Some dragons tend to make treaties with the neighboring races to avoid conflict.

This is how I view D and D dragons, though I have a different style of dragon for a homebrew world.


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## arwink (Nov 23, 2002)

Mostly I run them as individuals, but I had one campaign where dragons were guardians of ancient sites of magic, set in place by the gods.  Killing, bypassing or befriending one universally meant access to artifact level items or raw magical power.  
For the most part, they were greedy creatures pressed into service, and several were very unhappy with the situation.


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## Snoweel (Nov 23, 2002)

I'm currently overhauling my homebrew, and before I launch my next campaign, I'm looking to find an important place for D&D's signature monster in my setting.

I must say, this thread is *VERY* cool.



			
				Skarp Hedin said:
			
		

> *In my current campaign, they're large dangerous monsters with animal intelligence.  They are more cunning than animals of course, probably around Int 3 maybe.  I haven't fully plotted out their intelligence and etc.  They've got no magical abilities, and are classified as Beasts.
> 
> There are different colors, but so far they all breathe either fire or acid, and acid is extremely rare.
> 
> They are, however, favored targets for demons looking to possess something dangerous, which has given rise to myths about intelligent talking dragons.  Clerics generally try to educate people that the intelligent dragons are just demons riding in a giant lizard body, but rumors persist. *




Incredible. This is pretty much what I've got so far for the Dragons in my setting, though this is even better than my take on Dragons.

Well done - you've started me on another round of inspiration. (And will I ever get my homebrew back off the ground?)

First Oriental Adventures, then SHARK selling me on the merits of high-fantasy, now this. I'm sure Malhavoc's _Arcana Unearthed_ will throw another spanner in the works...


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## LoneWolf23 (Nov 23, 2002)

I've been thinking of making all dragons related in one aspect or another, with only one deity: Tiamat, the Mother of All Dragons (Neutral Greater Goddess).  She would be a Mythos-like creature beyond Human comprehension, with both Creator aspects (Metallic) and Destroyer aspects (Chromatic).  She would embody not only those two types of Dragons, but ALL other Dragons as well: Gem Dragons, Cloud Dragons, Shadow Dragons, Force Dragons, etc.    

The Metallics and the Chromatics would have differing points of view, the Chromatics believing in "Might makes Right" and the Metallics believing in "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you".   Each group would also see the other as an aberration, corrupting the essence of Tiamat with their very existance, and as such would be at war with each other, blinding themselves to the fact that Tiamat doesn't care about Good or Evil in any way.

They would behave in ways very similar to the Vorlons and Shadows, with the Metallic trying to influence mortal races into building peaceful, ordered civilisations and the Chromatics trying to encourage war and strife to weed out the weak.  Dragon "Treasure Hordes" would be wealth and various items accumulated over centuries of war and plotting, generally to be used to further their plans:  Items would be handed over to the Dragon's agents (knowingly or no), while Wealth would be used for various expenses, generally for buying people's cooperation.

The various Neutral Dragons would be uninterested in this conflict, and would pursue personal agendas and private pass-times, only interacting with mortals on a case-by-case business.


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## the Jester (Nov 23, 2002)

In my campaign the dragons are pretty much gods.  There's a dragon priest prestige class (similar to the dragon disciple but dating back as a specialty priest to 2e).  

If a dragon lives on your continent you pretty much know it.  They claim things like mountain ranges as their "immediate lairs" and if you go through their lair you'd best leave some damn fine tribute.

There are waaaay more than twelve age categories in my game; there is a dragon who is one million years old, who flew into a range of severe mountains and destroyed the twelve dwarven kingdoms in them... just to take their treasure.  ALL their treasure.


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## seasong (Nov 23, 2002)

I use dragons a lot of different ways. I usually run a new setting every year or so, and I like big scary lizards in my fantasy .

One of my favorite D&D ideas: restrict dragons to about 50 years old at the most (before they die of old age), drop their intelligence and spell casting and spell-like abilities, and you've got some pretty rocking horses.

I hope B.A.D.D. doesn't come cream me for that one.

You can also check out my story hour for a different sort of red dragon. Essentially, they're balance-oriented druids who maintain the wilderness and restrict where humanity can build.


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## Leopold (Nov 23, 2002)

Dragons are a might and power house all of their own. If there is a reason a dragon is somehwhere it will be there. You will not see dragons in random encounters, You will not find them in just any old hole in the wall.

I hold them over for encounters to scare and frighten and mystify the PC's. I use them very very rarely if ever and if I do I play them to the hilt, they are insanely intellegent and live nearly forever so they know when to fight and when to run.


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## Phowett (Nov 23, 2002)

In my setting I treat them as the oldest and most powerful creation of the Immortals. Now that the Immortals are nearly all gone, the dragons are slowly beginning to replace them as the caretakers of the universe.


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## s/LaSH (Nov 25, 2002)

Long since lost track of numbers...

In my campaign, dragons have been around for all of history (and in fact date back fifty million years before that). Their civilisation works on a different time scale to ours, and because dragons are fiercely individualistic, they normally live out their lives without interacting with their peers. And their lives are long... the one dragon you can see on my website proclaims he was ancient when the Pyramids were built, and he was probably around when humans first crawled out of the trees. (Who do you think burned down the forest in the first place?)

Dragons as mortals percieve them are pretty much straight D&D. A dragon rules what it surveys with an iron fist, but rarely uses that fist because it has the patience to wait. Dragons are overlords, and anyone who knows a dragon knows that they're not to be trifled with. Even metallic dragons are so far beyond humans that they would probably crush you if you got uppity. (It's like dogs. A nice guy will put a dog down if it starts biting people. A nasty guy will see a dog in his yard and check to see if his shotgun is loaded.)

Then again, nobody has ever seen enough dragons to classify them by colour. Case in point: There have been precisely 4 dragons in this campaign so far, and they all look completely different, AND they've only been seen collectively by a small group of world-trotting adventurers.

Dragons are powerful magic-users and fiercely intelligent. They have doubtless done everything humans have, and done it better, millions of years ago... and that's dragons without classes! A draconian hero is something I haven't even considered using... yet.

I personally love dragons. LOVE them. And I think this approach reflects some of that...


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## pogre (Dec 2, 2002)

Dragons in my campaign are pretty much big ole' Croks waiting on the bank. They sleep a whole lot and every once in a while they gorge on some tasty humans or other races. They are only concerned with politics between their own kind, and regard the politics of humans as arguments of who will lead the cattle line.


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## LGodamus (Dec 2, 2002)

I have IO as the original creator of the Universe and the dragons were his favored creations so the worlds he created were meant to be playgrounds for them his favored children.....since then he moved on to bigger and better things only checking in on them time to time to see how they fare,but in his absence other gods came about and used the already created universe full of worlds to be a container for their children. Most of the lesser gods pooled their resources to make the first sentient humanoid race called the first. The First were just as powerful as dragons but they had a penchant for organization and advacement. At that time there were no divisions between arcane and divine magic and no limits to how powerful a mge could become. The first marshalled their forces and attacked the gods in a full out assault only the dragons were the deciding factor....they helped the gods and turned the tide wiping out the First. Since that time the gods grew fearful and limited the power mortals could attain true dweomers were sealed away caps were put on how far mortals could advance and magic was divided between arcane and divine, but those rules do not apply to dragons to show gratitude for their help in the godswar...that is why they can grow so powerful and cast from arcane and divine with out restriction. There are some dragons who cast at around 40th level in my campaign.


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## jollyninja (Dec 5, 2002)

i like to use dragons as guardians of the world's largest treasure piles. they are the materials used for the worlds finest hats,boots and gloves as well as a nifty quarterstaff or dagger on occasion. ever had dragon jerky? who hasn't, that's so level 5! the heart basted in the creature's own blood while it roasts in a wood burning oven. that's how dragon is cooked friend.


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## sword-dancer (Dec 5, 2002)

Old, senile with lots of treasure, or romantic and in love,


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