# Rouge sneak attack with any weapon



## Uber Dungeon (Aug 19, 2010)

I just got hold of the pathfinder core rules book.
I want to make a rouge and I don't see or am somehow overlooking anywhere it says that sneak attack is limited to light weapons or anything like that.

so am I crazy or can I sneak attack someone with a great sword?


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## coyote6 (Aug 19, 2010)

Yes.

Well, yes, you can sneak attack with a greatsword; I dunno about you being crazy. 

Note that if your character just has rogue levels, he won't be proficient with a greatsword unless he spends a feat on it, so rogue w/greatsword isn't necessarily the most awesome tactic.


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## Uber Dungeon (Aug 19, 2010)

indeed, I was just curious and the struck me as one of the more outrageous examples.


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## smug (Aug 19, 2010)

It's about accurately picking the place to hit rather than actual sneakiness, so sure.


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## frankthedm (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghalleon said:


> so am I crazy or can I sneak attack someone with a great sword?



I too would prefer sneak attack limited to light blades and crossbows. Sadly Pathfinder does not have that flavorful limitation.


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## DumbPaladin (Aug 20, 2010)

frankthedm said:


> I too would prefer sneak attack limited to light blades and crossbows. Sadly Pathfinder does not have that flavorful limitation.





I'm not sure 3.5 does either ... I think it's just assumed to be true ...


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 20, 2010)

3.5 never had the limitation either, no.  Glad neither does.  Sneak attack is not Backstab.

I just wish PF fixed the concealment problem. *sigh*

EDIT: APG has the "Shadow Strike" feat to SA targets with concealment other than total concealment.  At BAB +1, Rogues can't take it till level 3.  So...they "feat patched" a serious design flaw, I guess.  *sigh*  Same thing with the suicide barbarian rage and the "Raging Vitality" feat...


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 20, 2010)

I remember Sneak Attacking the few things that weren't ooze plant undead elemental constructs in heavy fortification armor with a bastard sword, glaive, and/or quarterstaff.

Fun times, fun times.

Besides, it's not like you're doing that much more damage.  At most, it's an extra d6 for the greatsword.  Well, unless you have Power Attack.  Which, in a game filled with ooze plant undead elemental constructs in heavy fortification armor, it's a good idea to have.

Brad


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## renau1g (Aug 20, 2010)

Ghalleon said:


> I just got hold of the pathfinder core rules book.
> I want to make a *rouge *




Is that a new class I missed? 

(sorry I'm a dick)


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## DogBackward (Aug 20, 2010)

Half-elf Rogue with a racial substitution from APG can have proficiency with any one weapon, martial or exotic, instead of Skill Focus. Take an Elven Curve Blade for a finessable 1d10 with an 18-20 and a bonus vs. sunder. That makes a pretty nasty Rogue right there, and it still benefits from the -1/+3 bit of Power Attack. Or just take the greatsword and make a Strength-based Rogue. With Pathfinder's less-sucky version of Sneak Attack, you can make a pretty deadly thug-style Rogue, if you're willing to drop some of your sneaky stuff.


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## ffanxii4ever (Aug 21, 2010)

DogBackward said:


> Half-elf Rogue with a racial substitution from APG can have proficiency with any one weapon, martial or exotic, instead of Skill Focus. Take an Elven Curve Blade for a finessable 1d10 with an 18-20 and a bonus vs. sunder. That makes a pretty nasty Rogue right there, and it still benefits from the -1/+3 bit of Power Attack. Or just take the greatsword and make a Strength-based Rogue. With Pathfinder's less-sucky version of Sneak Attack, you can make a pretty deadly thug-style Rogue, if you're willing to drop some of your sneaky stuff.



Not to mention, you can take the Thug (Rogue) Archetype!


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## pawsplay (Aug 21, 2010)

"You want to sneak attack... with a ballista???"


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 21, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> "You want to sneak attack... with a ballista???"




Would YOU expect to get shot in the face with a log?  I think not!


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## James Jacobs (Aug 21, 2010)

Yeah; the way Pathfinder (and 3.5/3.0) model the "It's harder to sneak attack someone with a greatsword" is that rogues do not gain proficiency with greatswords automatically. If they do, via a feat or multiclassing or a race, then they can sneak attack as easily with a greatsword (or whatever weapon) as a dagger. 

Sneak attack, though, covers a LOT of variables, including but not limited to the stabbing someone when they don't know you're there. You can use it when you're attacking someone before they have a chance to react and get their defenses up even if they DO know you're there (such as when you go before them on the first round of combat) and you can get them when they're surrounded (via flanking) and you can get them if you distract them with a fake-out attack (via feint, using a Bluff check) and so on.

It's just that the phrase "Sneak Attack" is easier to write and sounds cooler than "enemy is unprepared or unsuspecting attack."


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## pawsplay (Aug 22, 2010)

Probably the main reason that sneak attack damage was not based on a weapon in the first place (as with double damage on a backstab, in earlier editions) was to neutralize some of the advantages of a greatsword.


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## Philosopher (Aug 22, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> "You want to sneak attack... with a ballista???"




"Well, there's nothing against it in the rules..."  I would have given XP for the reference, but I apparently need to spread some first.


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## Particle_Man (Aug 22, 2010)

Hey even back in 1st ed AD&D a half-orc fighter/thief or fighter/assassin could backstab with a two-handed sword.

Also, the swashbuckler archetype gives a rogue access to one martial weapon, which could be greatsword.


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## pawsplay (Aug 23, 2010)

Particle_Man said:


> Hey even back in 1st ed AD&D a half-orc fighter/thief or fighter/assassin could backstab with a two-handed sword.
> 
> Also, the swashbuckler archetype gives a rogue access to one martial weapon, which could be greatsword.




Then, in AD&D 2e, they decided the Achilles' region didn't exist.


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## Alzrius (Aug 25, 2010)

Getting back to basics for a moment...a rogue that's flanking deals sneak attack damage on every hit when making multiple attacks (such as with TWF) right?

It's come up in my game, and for some reason I'd always thought sneak attack damage applied for only one attack per round.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 25, 2010)

Alzrius said:


> Getting back to basics for a moment...a rogue that's flanking deals sneak attack damage on every hit when making multiple attacks (such as with TWF) right?




Yes.  Don't worry, the medium BAB, TWF penalties, and d6 HD more than make up for the advantages.



Alzrius said:


> It's come up in my game, and for some reason I'd always thought sneak attack damage applied for only one attack per round.




That's 2E Backstab.


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## renau1g (Aug 25, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> That's 2E Backstab.




& 4e as well


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 25, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Yes.  Don't worry, the medium BAB, TWF penalties, and d6 HD more than make up for the advantages.




Indeed.  While I could put out some serious damage if all my hits connected, my rogue was horribly frail.  (shudder)

Brad


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## Jhaelen (Aug 25, 2010)

renau1g said:


> & 4e as well



Depends. In Essentials a.k.a. 4.5 they changed it (again). It may well be changed for 'standard' 4e, as well, with one of the forthcoming rules updates...


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## dagger (Aug 25, 2010)

cignus_pfaccari said:


> Indeed.  While I could put out some serious damage if all my hits connected, my rogue was horribly frail.  (shudder)
> 
> Brad




Glass Cannon!!


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## DogBackward (Aug 25, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Yes.  Don't worry, the medium BAB, TWF penalties, and d6 HD more than make up for the advantages.



Actually, Rogues are d8 now _(because of that medium BAB)_, and Weapon Finesse is no longer a +1 BAB feat. So a Human Rogue 1 could be a TWF'er with Finesse, and kick ass pretty well.


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## Alzrius (Aug 25, 2010)

DogBackward said:


> Actually, Rogues are d8 now _(because of that medium BAB)_, and Weapon Finesse is no longer a +1 BAB feat. So a Human Rogue 1 could be a TWF'er with Finesse, and kick ass pretty well.




This is exactly the build that the rogue in my game is using.


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## Kaisoku (Aug 25, 2010)

It's not so much a glass cannon (which _is_ something of a factor), as it is high damage over low consistency, vs less damage that's very consistent.

All 4 martial classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin and Ranger) have bonuses to hit over and above their BAB and circumstances (like flanking, etc).
So not only are they getting an eventual 5 points higher by virtue of BAB alone (and earlier/more extra attacks), they also have things like Rage, Smite, Favored Enemy, and Weapon Training all giving additional bonuses to hit and damage.

It might sound daunting to see a Rogue have an extra ~35 damage per attack (10d6), which with TWF at high levels can become something like 210 damage (6 attacks).
However, a Fighter at 20th level has 10 points higher for attack. This means his ~10 bonus damage per attack (plus extra attack) applies more often, and without requiring things like flanking: every single attack is guaranteed this damage, and will land 50% more often than the rogue (10 points on a d20 roll).

The Rogue will rightly tear up anyone weak in AC that lets him get into a position for a full attack while flanking. That's quite a list of conditions though. The Fighter will do more consistent damage, even against the higher ACs, all the time.
The same applies to a Paladin fighting an evil target, a Barbarian using some of his rage rounds, and a Ranger fighting his favored enemy.

Sneak Attack barely lets Rogues hold their own in combat with the "big guys", and emphasizes the indirect fighting (sneaking, surprise attacks, instead of toe-to-toe).
After a decade of playing it this way, all experience has told me (and many others, you'll find) that the Rogue isn't breaking the game by doing sneak attack more than once a round.

Balance is one thing though. If you dislike the martial slant of the Rogue, and are looking for a more skill-based character, you could remove sneak attack damage at some intervals (or completely!) to give them more talents. With the APG, there's a lot of nice talents a rogue could want (45 normal talents and 20 advance, between both books), to the point that even having 20 choices would still leave a Rogue choosey.


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## Particle_Man (Aug 26, 2010)

Alzrius said:


> Getting back to basics for a moment...a rogue that's flanking deals sneak attack damage on every hit when making multiple attacks (such as with TWF) right?
> 
> It's come up in my game, and for some reason I'd always thought sneak attack damage applied for only one attack per round.




Usually the rogue gets sneak attack damage on every hit, but there are some corner cases where this doesn't happen.  With the feat "manyshot" you get multiple attacks but only get sneak attack on the first (assuming you catch the opponent with their dex bonus down).

Also invisibility gets broken if you attack, so if a rogue is using invisibility to get sneak attack goodness, then they lose that goodness after their first attack.  That is why greater invisibility is more useful to the rogue.


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## Alzrius (Aug 26, 2010)

Particle_Man said:


> Usually the rogue gets sneak attack damage on every hit, but there are some corner cases where this doesn't happen.  With the feat "manyshot" you get multiple attacks but only get sneak attack on the first (assuming you catch the opponent with their dex bonus down).
> 
> Also invisibility gets broken if you attack, so if a rogue is using invisibility to get sneak attack goodness, then they lose that goodness after their first attack.  That is why greater invisibility is more useful to the rogue.




Yeah; it seems to be that most cases of performing a sneak attack from catching someone flat-footed last for one attack. Whereas sneak attacking while flanking lasts until the targeted character isn't flanked anymore.


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## urodivoi (Aug 28, 2010)

Should I be ashamed that my last rogue wielded a undead bane great sword as his primary weapon?  Critting on a sneak attack was fun!


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## athos (Aug 29, 2010)

Can a rogue/mage attack with an orb as a sneak attack in PF?

I always thought they could in 3.5, assuming the opponent was flat footed and they were within 30', but in PF under arcane trickster, it says you have to be a 10th level AT to do that?

Is this a change to PF, or did I miss something in 3.5?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 29, 2010)

athos said:


> Can a rogue/mage attack with an orb as a sneak attack in PF?
> 
> I always thought they could in 3.5, assuming the opponent was flat footed and they were within 30', but in PF under arcane trickster, it says you have to be a 10th level AT to do that?
> 
> Is this a change to PF, or did I miss something in 3.5?




You absolutely can in 3.5, that's for sure.  Also, I'll note that technically the orb spells don't exist in PF.  

But, in regards to the Arcane Trickster question.  The Surprise Spells feature states that you get sneak attack on *any* spell that does hit point damage.  Weapon-like spells are not the only ones that do hit point damage.  This means you could also (somehow) sneak attack with a fireball or even Finger of Death, which PF made into purely a damage-dealing spell.  So no, having that ability does not infer that PF rogues cannot sneak attack with spells requiring attack rolls, since it covers far far far more spells than that.


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## Cyberzombie (Aug 29, 2010)

*ROGUE.*

A rouge sneak attack just makes your back red.


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## Odhanan (Aug 29, 2010)

*ROUGE* refers to either any of various red cosmetics used when coloring cheeks or lips, a reddish powder used for polishing metal, or the French word for "red".

*ROGUE* is the word you were actually looking for, I think. 

EDIT - LOL Ninja'd!


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 29, 2010)

Cyberzombie said:


> *ROGUE.*
> 
> A rouge sneak attack just makes your back red.






Odhanan said:


> *ROUGE* refers to either any of various red cosmetics used when coloring cheeks or lips, a reddish powder used for polishing metal, or the French word for "red".
> 
> *ROGUE* is the word you were actually looking for, I think.
> 
> EDIT - LOL Ninja'd!




You two didn't read the first page, did you?



renau1g from TEN DAYS AGO said:


> Is that a new class I missed?


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## Cyberzombie (Aug 30, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> You two didn't read the first page, did you?



Why in the world would I have read it?


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## Cyberzombie (Aug 30, 2010)

Double Post.  I r smart.


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## AshLight (Jan 9, 2011)

Cyberzombie said:


> Double Post.  I r smart.





Maybe you r smart but you came up with a funny idea for a tshirt


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jan 10, 2011)

dagger said:


> Glass Cannon!!




By the end of that campaign, I'd multiclassed into fighter and cleric and wound up power attacking with a bastard sword, and being SHOCKED when the DM reminded me to roll Sneak Attack dice.

(bleep)er liked giving things that weren't oozes, elementals, plants, undead, or constructs +1 Heavy Fortification breastplates.

Brad


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## DragonLancer (Jan 10, 2011)

pawsplay said:


> "You want to sneak attack... with a ballista???"




In our PF game last night we got dragged into participating in a no-holds barred wrestling competition, and the rogue went all WWF and sneak attacked one opposing wrestler with a chair!


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