# What do you think the new setting will be, from Ampersand?



## Silverblade The Ench (Mar 2, 2009)

> James Wyatt and Rich Baker are getting ready to launch into next year’s campaign setting, which I know is going to surprise and delight many of you out there. I’ll start dropping hints about the setting over the next few columns, and we’ll see how many of you can figure out what’s coming.



Hm?
I'd Hope spelljammer (maybe mixed with the Planes) as there's been hints, or Dark Sun, which again was mentioned in Manual of the Planes.


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## Belphanior (Mar 2, 2009)

I'm unure if WotC would make a setting that's already largely handled by the Manual of the Planes. Just like in 3e, that book alone can do most of Planescape (and now also bits of Spelljammer).

Dark Sun is a fan favorite, but it totally clashes with the new systems and assumptions of 4e. I don't think the time is ready yet for such a setting.

Would many of us really be surprised, I wonder, if a new edition of Dark Sun, Birthright or Dragonlance were to be released? I somewhat doubt it. I think it might be a "new" setting. One that hasn't been done before in D&D, but already exists as general concept or for another gameline.


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## Hawke (Mar 2, 2009)

I think it's likely it will be entirely new. I thought there was talk about that and it seems like a good time for them to release a new setting, FR, Eb, New, DarkSun would be a good way to go for them. It's released a good 2 years into 4E so they can reference existing material and have a good idea of where the next 2 years are going and prepare for that. If so, I hope they really setup the political intrigue and factions and really make heavy use of the player races available as common / integral with many of the kingdoms out there rather than the extra races feeling like Warforged in Forgotten Realms. 

I think Dark Sun is dark, restricted, and post-apocalyptic. It makes sense wotc would spend more time with expansive, everything-goes, open for a few settings before it strips it down. Also gives people 3 settings to choose from w/o having to get into the dark aspects (slavery, relativism when it comes to good/evil). 

I want DS so bad, though.


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## Bold or Stupid (Mar 2, 2009)

Al Qadim for me, the 2e setting I regret missing, but it won't be as it's a Faerun sub setting. I'd like something with an arabian style or maybe classical Mediterranean would be cool.


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## OchreJelly (Mar 2, 2009)

Can someone summarize what makes Al Qadim standout?  It's something I totally bypassed during my 2E days, but I see it come up here occasionally as a fan-favorite.  I'm interested in both mechanics and tone.


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## Shadowsong666 (Mar 2, 2009)

None of the settings in the poll imho.






_*Dragonlance*_​


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## Obryn (Mar 2, 2009)

If PHB3 = Psionics + Shadow, then I think Dark Sun is a lock.

-O


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## Sir Osis of Liver (Mar 2, 2009)

I think Dark sun is a strong possiblity, after all they're rereleasing the prism pentad. That maybe thier way of testing the waters to see if there is any fan base for the setting as well as helping to bring the setting to the attention of folks that came in with 4e.


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## Shemeska (Mar 2, 2009)

I'd prefer none of them, given what happened to FR. I'd much prefer the 4e design team create their own, new setting for 4e rather than forcefit a 2e setting into the default PoL tropes (at the risk of losing a setting's atmosphere, unique points, etc).

But depending on how radical the changes to Eberron are in 4e, if they've learned anything from 4e FR's reception, my opinion on the matter might change. I suspect they may do Dark Sun, but I truly worry about how much it will end up looking like Dark Sun once they get done fitting it into the 4e setting cookie cutter.


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## kenmarable (Mar 2, 2009)

OchreJelly said:


> Can someone summarize what makes Al Qadim standout?  It's something I totally bypassed during my 2E days, but I see it come up here occasionally as a fan-favorite.  I'm interested in both mechanics and tone.



Mechanically, to me at least, the one thing that really stood out was that it fully embraced the 2e kit system. All PCs were expected to take a kit, and there were a lot of very flavorful kits in the setting. The other thing was the sha'ir class that relied on having a little 1-foot tall genie you would send off to retrieve spells for you. Fun idea, but I was never super-keen on the implementation of it (you need a lot of planning ahead, because you could, for example, get even priest spells, but sometimes you needed to wait hours for it).

However, I think what makes it such a fan favorite isn't the mechanics, but the flavor of the setting. It was pure Arabian Nights-style fun. Genies, sultans, pick pocket thieves going on epic quests, or my personal favorite - the religious assassin.  It was abounding in fun adventure possibilities, and with the strong use of kits, it hit a nice balance of "flavor impacting mechanics" without having to create drastic new mechanics like new classes and such.

But that's just my recollection from 15 years or so ago. I'm sure others will have other opinions of what made Al Qadim great.


As for the original topic, my money is on Dark Sun, but I think "New setting" would have been a good option to have in the poll. I can see it really going in any number of ways, but if I have to pick, I'd go with Dark Sun. And I'm fine with there being some changes, like including all of the core races in some form - and given how strange Dark Sun is, I don't think it would be hard to retrofit them in unless you are a canon purist. 

But I guess part of that is that I prefer "This is a new edition, and we're saying dragonborn have always been in the world, just maybe over those mountains or something. Whatever." rather than another Time of Troubles/Spellplague world-altering explanation of the changes. Considering it hasn't been actively published in a very long time, and the number of groups that will convert an existing campaign to 4e Dark Sun rather than start a new one is probably exceedingly small, I would prefer a "It's just different" than having some grand explanation of the changes.

I would really hate to see some convoluted the gods return to Athas, try to re-shape the world to better match other worlds they oversee, only to be driven off by an unholy alliance of an escaped female mul gladiator and Borys reborn who give birth to the dragonborn race, while elves take to the newly grown forests and reclaim their heritage as eladrin and then teaching the halflings literacy and proper hygene (and focusing on their psionic surfboards because that was the awesomest part of Dark Sun in one of the designer's high school games), but it's all 12,000 years later, so none of that actually matters, and on and on. Sometimes trying to explain the difference just makes more of a mess than saying, "Hey, it's different now."


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## Maldin (Mar 2, 2009)

Shadowsong666 said:


> None of the settings in the poll imho.



I agree.



Sir Osis of Liver said:


> I think Dark sun is a strong possiblity, after all they're rereleasing the prism pentad. That maybe thier way of testing the waters to see if there is any fan base for the setting as well as helping to bring the setting to the attention of folks that came in with 4e.



I don't think you test the RPG Campaign waters with the reprinting of a series of novels. There's little crossover purchasing, and far too much investment of resources in the development of a campaign world (that must happen long before novel sales stats are in!) to gamble on such a thin connection.

Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, mysteries, magic, mechanics, and more!


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## Silverblade The Ench (Mar 2, 2009)

yeah the "cookie cutter" crap would ruin Dark Sun, and the novels were *atrocious*, in that they forced a great setting down a bloody stupid road that made nonesens of the setting's ethos 

Different is *good*, no need to make D&D all the damn same, except mechanic wise.

And I loathed how they made a mess of 4th ed Realms too. Just ain't he Realms no more, sigh. 
Hopefully they have learned form those lessons!

Dark Sun 4th ed must start from the original boxed set's precepts. No damned dragonbron or tieflings, except as *very* rare characters (dray are a secret race suitable for dragonborn, and elemental links to the Abyss were hinted at and make sense, plus the setting is full of "mutations and new creatures appearing")

you don't need new classes for dark sun, templars are jsut clerics, or walrords or whatever (bureacrat NPCs) and "gladiator" is jsut a job description, not a class.

Yeha it owuld fit in perfectif they add psionics to PHB3 

OchreJelly,
Al-Qadim,arabian, most races live otgether, ie goblinoids and orcs live with humans and are just "folk" not inherenlty evil.

they had a special spellcaster class who "stole" magic using genie like creatures, and could have a few spells of any class.

Sinbad!!! 
basically it was kind of fun and different, I must say.


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## Desert Hare (Mar 2, 2009)

I think Ravenloft is perfect for the Points of Light feel. Although I'm not a fan of 4E, I'd do what I'm gonna do with the FR; use the background fluff and use 3.5/BOXM with the seeting info.


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## Obryn (Mar 2, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> I'd prefer none of them, given what happened to FR. I'd much prefer the 4e design team create their own, new setting for 4e rather than forcefit a 2e setting into the default PoL tropes (at the risk of losing a setting's atmosphere, unique points, etc).
> 
> But depending on how radical the changes to Eberron are in 4e, if they've learned anything from 4e FR's reception, my opinion on the matter might change. I suspect they may do Dark Sun, but I truly worry about how much it will end up looking like Dark Sun once they get done fitting it into the 4e setting cookie cutter.



Oh, let's be fair.

Dark Sun, as a setting, has _already_ been ruined.  Anything new done to it can't possibly break it any more. 

-O


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## Irda Ranger (Mar 2, 2009)

No DragonLance? What's up with _that_?

Although in all fairness, we already have rules for Minotaurs and Kender, so there isn't much need for a whole Campaign Setting write-up.

I "hope" for Spelljammer, Al-Qadim or Ravenloft (especially Ravenloft). But I expect Dark Sun, since it always does the best in these polls. I do not expect Planescape, since 90% of what you need is already in the Manual of the Planes.

As for "an entirely new setting", that doesn't make any sense given the statements made. Only a relaunch would "surprise and delight" people, or be guessable before-hand.


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## gribble (Mar 2, 2009)

Obryn said:


> If PHB3 = Psionics + Shadow, then I think Dark Sun is a lock.




Actually, I think it's far more likely if PHB3 is Psionic + *Elemental*.

I think it's likely to be Planescape or Dark Sun, and I'm hoping for the former...


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## Nymrohd (Mar 2, 2009)

Greyhawk? I heard some rumors way back that there was a plan to reboot Greyhawk. I'd be very curious to see that.


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## Obryn (Mar 2, 2009)

gribble said:


> Actually, I think it's far more likely if PHB3 is Psionic + *Elemental*



Well, with DS's elemental clerics, I think that'd work even better.

-O


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## DragonBelow (Mar 2, 2009)

*Darksun*

I was at a B&N bookstore this past Saturday and saw that they had reprinted the 3 Original Darksun novels by Troy Denning.

In my opinion this can be seen as an attempt of renewing interest in an old setting.


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## Fallen Seraph (Mar 2, 2009)

The two settings I be looking forward to out of that list be Planescape or Dark Sun.

As for adding elements from core 4e I am perfectly fine with it. It is to me just another option. It means if I wish to add these elements into the setting it is much easier to do. If one wishes to use the setting differently then simply take out the elements they don't wish to have. The atmosphere, themes, etc. are only present as you wish them to be. All I need are some of the mechanics such as NPCs, places, etc. to do this and I can create the theme itself. 

I have done this for any setting I have used, sometimes talking a large chunk away. Such as Planescape with remodelling the whole planes except for Sigil, taking alignment out of the Factions, etc.


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## Daniel D. Fox (Mar 2, 2009)

I'm banking that it's Dark Sun. The recent reprints of the Troy Denning novels, along with the elegance of 4E lends a lot of credence towards WotC publishing a totally non-standard, niche setting that they can market the hell out of across various mediums. Plus, they can really _flex _all the new stuff they introduced in Manual of the Planes without having to cover everything in the book. Primordials and the elemental planes just scream Dark Sun!


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## Nymrohd (Mar 2, 2009)

I don't really want to see the more peculiar settings like Dark Sun, Planescape, Spelljammer translated in 4E. I would not mind settings that are like them and take a lot of ideas from them adapted in the 4E cosmology and sensibilities but I don't think 4E is a great system to convert things into (like 3E was, where you could convert anything).


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## Mercutio01 (Mar 2, 2009)

DragonBelow said:


> I was at a B&N bookstore this past Saturday and saw that they had reprinted the 3 Original Darksun novels by Troy Denning.
> 
> In my opinion this can be seen as an attempt of renewing interest in an old setting.



This would be reasonable to think, except that they also reprinted Ravenloft AND have been publishing Ari Marmell's Ravenloft novel in chapters on the Wizards website.

I won't guess as to which one because I just don't know.  All I really care about now is the release of Eberron.


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Mar 2, 2009)

Obryn said:


> Oh, let's be fair.
> 
> Dark Sun, as a setting, has _already_ been ruined.  Anything new done to it can't possibly break it any more.
> 
> -O




Dragonlance is pretty much ruined as well.

If they relaunch a setting (and that's what it would be with Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, etc), I hope they take a year 1 approach.  Cut the setting back to its roots and do away with the stuff that spiraled out of control.

ps - Please let it be Dark Sun


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## Klaus (Mar 2, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Hm?
> I'd Hope spelljammer (maybe mixed with the Planes) as there's been hints, or Dark Sun, which again was mentioned in Manual of the Planes.



If Goliaths take the place of Half-Giants, the emphasis on Primal (elemental?) powers in the PHB2 and possibly Psionics on PHB3, I'd have to say Dark Sun, with PHB3 introducing Thri-kreen and Mul.


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## Nymrohd (Mar 2, 2009)

The truth is, TSR ruined most of its own settings before WotC ever got their hands on them. Die Vecna Die anyone?


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## ki11erDM (Mar 2, 2009)

Give me a reboot of DragonLance or Greyhawk and I will be damn happy.

With a campaign book exactly like FR 4e, which is the best setting book i have ever bought.


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## Shemeska (Mar 2, 2009)

Moniker said:


> I'm banking that it's Dark Sun. The recent reprints of the Troy Denning novels




Well WotC also reprinted a number of Ravenloft titles, and had started to put out a new line of them as well, and then they abruptly cancelled them all. I'm not so sure that I'd put much stock in the novel department's actions giving an indication to what the RPG department was going to do.

Of course the reprints could conceivably have been judged by someone in WotC be a way to judge demand for the setting. I don't necessarily agree with that (or disagree) but it's a thought.



> Primordials and the elemental planes just scream Dark Sun!




Dark Sun needs Primordials and the 4e elemental chaos like a fish needs a bicycle.


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## Obryn (Mar 2, 2009)

Alaxk Knight of Galt said:


> If they relaunch a setting (and that's what it would be with Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, etc), I hope they take a year 1 approach.  Cut the setting back to its roots and do away with the stuff that spiraled out of control.
> 
> ps - Please let it be Dark Sun



While that's my dream, I somehow doubt it since they're re-releasing the novels that more or less stuck a knife into it. 

-O


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## Obryn (Mar 2, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> Dark Sun needs Primordials and the 4e elemental chaos like a fish needs a bicycle.



I think that's a little harsh.

A re-imagined Dark Sun _could_ be really cool.  I'm a huge fan of the first DS box set, but limiting the designers to parameters set in 2e seems kinda ... well, unfair.

I'll wait and see.  It's not like Athas is a real place someone's mucking with;  if I don't like the new one, I can always rip off any mechanics I like and revert the setting back to the original.  And, I can hope that others enjoy the new setting.

-O


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## UngeheuerLich (Mar 2, 2009)

Dark Sun,

many fans out there, and it just didn´t work in 3.5 

Ok, it also didn´t work in 2nd edittion if you really use the rules...

but I could easily imagine it working in 4e... wit psionic rules blending fine into the normal system, this will be a grat points of light setting, without ruining anything


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## Shroomy (Mar 2, 2009)

Of the options presented in the poll, I went with Dark Sun, but I have a sneaking suspicion it will be Greyhawk.


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## Aloïsius (Mar 2, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> Of the options presented in the poll, I went with Dark Sun, but I have a sneaking suspicion it will be Greyhawk.



Please, no : both the implied setting and FR are already vanilla fantasy settings (and the implied setting is a mixture between FR and Greyhawk anyway). We don't need another one. 

Like many others, I bet it will be Dark Sun :

1) every online poll shows that this is the most anticipated setting
2) psi and shadow screams Darksun, even if elemental chaos don't
3) post apocalyptic setting will fit nicely with our own world in 2010 
4) it's really different from the base line
5) we already have the manual of the planes, there is no need to hurry for a planescape remake
6) Eberron, which is still somewhat new as a setting, is 2009 setting : it's time to raise some great old one.
7) Al Quadim, Maztica don't have enough traction.
8) This way we can have a new oriental adventure in 2011, with Ki and elemental power sources.


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 2, 2009)

What, no love for Birthright in the poll? I would have thought that would be a particularly good fit for 4e design and ethos.


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## Quickleaf (Mar 2, 2009)

I'd like to see something entirely new after Eberron. Take one of the sub-genres of fantasy (swashbuckling, dark fantasy, etc) and mix it up with the core assumptions of 4e. That or Rich Burlew's setting.


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## Moon_Goddess (Mar 2, 2009)

kenmarable said:


> I would really hate to see some convoluted the gods return to Athas, try to re-shape the world to better match other worlds they oversee, only to be driven off by an unholy alliance of an escaped female mul gladiator and Borys reborn who give birth to the dragonborn race, while elves take to the newly grown forests and reclaim their heritage as eladrin and then teaching the halflings literacy and proper hygene (and focusing on their psionic surfboards because that was the awesomest part of Dark Sun in one of the designer's high school games), but it's all 12,000 years later, so none of that actually matters, and on and on. Sometimes trying to explain the difference just makes more of a mess than saying, "Hey, it's different now."




If I see this I'm blaming you....

Don't give them ideas.


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## FourthBear (Mar 2, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> Of the options presented in the poll, I went with Dark Sun, but I have a sneaking suspicion it will be Greyhawk.



I'm hoping for Al Qadim myself, but that's not the only reason I would almost dread them picking Greyhawk.  Between the various camp of Greyhawk purists, I would think the number of complaints and infighting over every little detail on a revamped Oerth would be legendary.  I don't know if I could stand to see the dozens of threads that would erupt whenever someone wrote an article on using dragonborn in Oerth or describing the new Scarlet Brotherhood.  

That and they've tried a number of times to launch Greyhawk campaign settings with lackluster commercial success, I believe.

If they want more Greyhawk material published, I would suggest they grant the license to Paizo to publish 4e materials for that setting.  If I could stand the wailing from anti-4e diehards, I think the resulting products could be excellent.


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## Glyfair (Mar 2, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> What, no love for Birthright in the poll? I would have thought that would be a particularly good fit for 4e design and ethos.



I would vote for Birthright.  I picked up all the books for it as 3E was being released.  I started to run a campaign for it and, rather than deal with the messy 3E conversions, was going to do 2E.  While creating characters I decided that I just couldn't do 2E.

I also would vote for Greyhawk.  Supposedly, there were "confirmed" reports that Greyhawk was in development for one of WotCs 4E settings.  Within days  there was a "confirmed" report that Dragonlance was as well.

Of the ones here, none of them am I "hoping" for.  I would be fine with some of them, but really are hoping for none.

I am almost certain it won't be Planescape or Ravenloft.  They have already pretty much been put into the 4E setting.


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## morgul97 (Mar 2, 2009)

I THINK it will be Dark Sun... I WISH it were Oriental Adventures.


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## DerekSTheRed (Mar 3, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> What, no love for Birthright in the poll? I would have thought that would be a particularly good fit for 4e design and ethos.




I would have voted for Birthright if it were an option.  Especially since Rich Baker created it in the latter days of TSR.  It has a PoL setting with the Shadow World or as I like to call it, the Shadowfell's baby daddy.  They would have to add rules on running a kingdom to the next DMG (skill challenges FTW) and maybe a mass combat ruleset (stolen from SWSE's Clone Wars perhaps) but that's all very doable.

I'm curious to know if having a sucessful novel line helps or hurts a setting.  Dragonlance has 18 (I think), Dark Sun has 13, Birthright has 6 (one of which was an eBook by Rich Baker), and Ravenloft has 23.  If having a line of novels helps sell the setting then it seems Ravenloft or Dragonlance are the two favorites.


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## PoeticJustice (Mar 3, 2009)

I also think it will be Dark Sun. The novels might not be a positive indicator, but taken with the hazards article they published way back, I think we have a clear favorite. The timeline syncs well enough, too.

I really want it to Planescape, though.


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## Remathilis (Mar 3, 2009)

'Lance is my bet, but Ravenloft is my wish.

I don't see 'Hawk or Planescape (esp. with Sigil in DMG2).


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## Hawke (Mar 3, 2009)

I have to say I'd be pretty disappointed with Greyhawk. Not really excited about Dragonlance or Birthright - just don't seem different enough to really excite me. Planescape seems to be something that we've got a lot of material that any DM could begin a campaign there... but seems a bit too much for me to consider running a game based around. /personalopinion

Al-Qadim might not be _the_ setting, but I would likely bet that the first 4E original setting will have a very similar all-races-together feel.

How is Eberron on that scale anyway? I'm looking forward to buying that setting for 4E since I skipped it over last edition (by the time I got to a place where I was starting a new campaign the mountain of Eberron source books turned me off)


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## M.L. Martin (Mar 3, 2009)

I know Rich Baker would like to do a new setting (I talked to him about it briefly at D&D Game Day last year), but that doesn't fit with the hints dropped in this column.

  My guess would be Dragonlance to mark the 25th Anniversary of _Chronicles_ (which, along with _Legends_ and the other Weis or Weis/Hickman novels, especially those that star Raistlin the Archmunchkin, are all anyone really cares about  ), with a remoter possiblity of Greyhawk or Dark Sun. I don't think Ravenloft's likely--to be honest, I don't know if I _want_ a 4E Ravenloft, given the distance between the setting's style and the default of 4E. Dragonlance and Ravenloft both suffer the problem of limited room for Epic Tier campaigns. Dark Sun would be perfect if they want to show off the Psionic and Elemental power sources (what were Athasian clerics if not elemental versions of the cleric class?), and Greyhawk might give them a way to attract some of the grognards who aren't buying into 4E, although I think it's just as likely to backfire.


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## qstor (Mar 3, 2009)

I think its probably Ravenloft. I don't think Rich Baker or James Wyatt know enough about Greyhawk to write the setting book with respect to the canon. I don't think Dragonlance will get done for a few years if at all. I don't think Birthright will be done.

As to the 4e cookie cutter comment...tieflings and Dragonborn in Dragonlance and Greyhawk...no thanks...


Mike


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## Dedekind (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm expecting a whole new setting. Didn't they retain the rights to the best three from the campaign setting competition several years ago? If that is true, that have two setting bibles that just need some expansion.


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## FourthBear (Mar 3, 2009)

Hawke said:


> Al-Qadim might not be _the_ setting, but I would likely bet that the first 4E original setting will have a very similar all-races-together feel.
> 
> How is Eberron on that scale anyway?



I'm very fond of Eberron as a campaign world.  However, it doesn't have much of the all-races-together feel of Al Qadim.  At least no more than, say the Realms or Greyhawk.  Like most campaign worlds, many of the separate races have their own homelands and are somewhat isolated from each other through customs and religion.  There are a number of nations with highly mixed and cosmopolitan populations, but no more so than the majority of D&D worlds.

I like Eberron since I think it does an excellent job of creating a place for vast majority of the varied and oddball things found in D&D sourcebooks, all while giving each a good, distinctive spin of its own.

I love Al Qadim for bringing in lots of the distinctive flavor of the stories of the Arabian Nights.  One thing, as you note, that is different about Al Qadim over most campaign worlds is the generally united cultures under the wisdom of the Lawgiver and the lack of typical racial xenophobias.


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## Irda Ranger (Mar 3, 2009)

My question for both Dragonlance and Dark Sun would be: What Era?

There's a big down side to the re-releasing the Prism Pentad (if they do relaunch Dark Sun): They're less likely to pretend it never happened. That's lousy.

On the other hand, there's a chance that the Relaunch would involve a short timeline jump and a new BBEG appearing and taking over Tyr, wiping out all those "Free City" ambitions in the process. That would get things back on theme nicely. He doesn't even have to be a Dragonking; maybe some cabal of evil Epic Psionicists (as opposed to those uselessly True Neutral ones). But a new Dragonking would be fine with me too.

As for Dragonlance, I would take it as a really good sign if WotC announced that 5th Age was actually just a really lucid LSD-enhanced dream of Tasselhoff's, and that the setting was being wound back to shortly after the conclusion of Legends. That would probably work for the majority of potential Dragonlance fans too, seeing as how the original trilogies are the best selling and most widely read. For the average reader jumping from Legends to a post-5th Age setting would be confusing in the extreme.

I think one of the best things about combining Dragonlance and 4E is the rules support potential for playing in different Ages.  Now that you don't need Clerics (any Leader will do) you can play in the Age of Despair.  All sorts of Ages and "settings within the Setting" can support play with the appropriate mix of classes ("Wizards are outlawed? No problem; who's gonna be a Druid?").

Man, I'm getting excited just thinking about it.


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## Ycore Rixle (Mar 3, 2009)

Hmmm. I haven't read the article, but I wonder if it will be an oriental adventures setting done 4e style. I wouldn't be surprised to see WOTC move into the anime/manga sector.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm thinking DS for the same reasons many are (psionics tie-in; elemental tie-in), but there's at least a 76% chance of that being the last nail in the 4e coffin for me, what with some of the design laws apparently in play. 

I'd LOVE to be proven too pessimistic about this. 

It could be Dragonlance or Greyhawk, theoretically, I suppose. Neither would annoy me as much if they got it wrong. But missing DS when putting out the Psionic PH seems a little...curious.


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## Kunimatyu (Mar 3, 2009)

Kara-Tur (or a generic "Oriental Adventures" setting with a less offensive name)

4e is screaming for an "anime" style world with samurai, monks, and all the associated stuff like oni and lung dragons.

That being said, unless they've switched PHB3 from psionic to Power Source Asian, maybe not.


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## Roman (Mar 3, 2009)

Dark Sun is my all-time favorite official (A)D&D setting. Still, I would prefer not to see it released for the 4th edition. It's not that I want to deny 4E fans the joys of Dark Sun. It also won't impact my games in the near future, since I don't play 4E and even 4E Dark Sun would not going to convince to purchase 4E Core books or even the 4E Dark Sun books. Given how they have mutilated Forgotten Realms, however, I fear what they are going to do to the setting in order to force it into the 4E philosophy and how that could impact the setting once 5E comes along years later. I suppose if 5E was to somehow retcon the entire 4E out of the system (hmm, fans of other setting might also appreciate that - Forgotten Realms, for example) than I wouldn't mind a 4E Dark Sun release at all.


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## Shroomy (Mar 3, 2009)

WoTC specifically called out Abeir-Toril, Oerth, Krynn, Eberron, and Athas in the MotP.  I wouldn't go beyond that list when trying to determine what they're going to do next.


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## SPECTRE666 (Mar 3, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Hm?
> I'd Hope spelljammer (maybe mixed with the Planes) as there's been hints, or Dark Sun, which again was mentioned in Manual of the Planes.



-What about Greyhawk?

*SPECTRE*


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## TDRandall (Mar 3, 2009)

Good grief you young'uns!  Why has nobody thought of Mystara/Known World yet (OD&D)?

I haven't gone 4E so I don't know all of the specifics, but if it supposed to includes "anything for anybody" as somebody mentions, I know that that world was certainly starting to feel like it as the Voyage of the Princess Ark Dragon series continued.

Yep - Hollow World, Savage Coast with curse of Red Steel/Smoke Powder, Thyatia, Glantri, Alphatia (whether pre or post Day of Magic), Heldannic Territories, Hul, Ethengar Khanate and Emirates of Ylaruam, Ostland/Vestland, etc. etc. etc.  Certainly enough points to light up there!


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## doctorhook (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm mildly worried that it might be Dragonlance...


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 3, 2009)

Well, I voted for Al-Quadim because I think Al-Quadim style adventures with their mix of Harryhausen style cinematic episodes, well done exotic fantasy, and honest Arabian Night-style fables would be a fantastic edition to 4e.

I don't think it's likely, and there are other solutions for Al-Quadim that I think worked better, but I voted for it.

Dark Sun does seem like a possibility, but I have profound misgivings for how that setting could be updated.  As others have said, it was pretty much demolished the first time around, and there are elements of Dark Sun that I don't see working at all well with 4e design philosophy.

At this point any edition of Dark Sun would have to be a complete reimagining anyway, and I don't think doing it will grant anyone good will.

Since PHB3 will have the Ki power source in it a totally redone Oriental Adventures - maybe with Al-Quadim elements in it - would seem like a great choice.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 3, 2009)

Kunimatyu said:


> Kara-Tur (or a generic "Oriental Adventures" setting with a less offensive name)
> 
> 4e is screaming for an "anime" style world with samurai, monks, and all the associated stuff like oni and lung dragons.
> 
> That being said, unless they've switched PHB3 from psionic to Power Source Asian, maybe not.




We know Ki is a power source in PHB3, we simply suspect Psionic is also a power source.


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## jsaving (Mar 3, 2009)

Considering Wyatt has been the driving force behind OA, and not any of the other settings, it seems reasonable to guess Kara-Tur might be the next one to be unveiled.  Dark Sun makes a certain amount of logical sense given its power sources, but recent developments with Noonan don't suggest Dark Sun is high on WotC's priority list at this point in time.  Ravenloft and Al-Qadim aren't popular enough to be settings "people would get excited about", nor is Spelljammer, though it at least has the virtue of being well-liked by most of the designers and hence something they might want to do in the future.  

Most of the people in our game are hoping for Dragonlance, and certainly there are a lot of gamers who would be excited to see a 4e sourcebook strongly centered on the War of the Lance period or its immediate aftermath, rather than focusing on the bad writing and assorted detritus that muddled the setting thereafter.  But there are challenges too, many of which were faced and only partly overcome by the FR team -- for example, how to make the player characters feel important in a setting where strong NPCs have historically driven most of the action?  In this regard perhaps it is a positive sign that Rich Baker is on the team, as he likely has a lot of ideas along these lines that he wasn't permitted to fully implement in the corporate-driven FR relaunch.


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## Mercule (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm "hoping" for Athas (undefiled) or Ravenloft.  

I'd be open to Al Qadim, but I have no experience with it.  I suspect Kara-Tur would be a bit less to my liking, but I got some use out of the 1e OA book, so I'd check it out.

If they flavored Greyhawk close to the old gold and red box, that'd be grand, but I think the fanbase/designer base is too fractured for anything good to come of a Greyhawk release.

I was always indifferent to Dragonlance, and remain so.

Birthright was released while I was playing other games, so I've never seen it.  From what I've been told, though, it'd be right up my alley.

I'm indifferent at best to Planescape (I don't mind the setting, but I disliked how some of it's setting concepts seeped into core).

I can't fathom why SpellJammer got released in the first place, let alone a rerelease.

I think Ravenloft or Dark Sun are the most likely, though, with Dragonlance next most likely.


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## ki11erDM (Mar 3, 2009)

qstor said:


> I don't think Rich Baker or James Wyatt know enough about Greyhawk to write the setting book with respect to the canon.




Good.  I want a full reboot.  Pre-war.  When Greyhawk was actually interesting.

But all the OA talk got me thinking that would be damn cool…


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## Kaodi (Mar 3, 2009)

All I would ask is what reason they would have for not releasing Eberron next. It is the only other setting that was really supported in the 3e/v3.5 years. And hell, warforged were one of the first races to be expanded upon in Dragon. I know that they are considered part of the Core now, but they are a central part of only one setting. I mean, personally I suppose I could wait, because I am not really in a position to buy RPG books right now (even though I have every Eberron sourcebook), but I am just wondering what sort of logic they would be employing in choosing not to push it next. That is not to say there may not be decent reasons, but it would be nice to know what they are.


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## ki11erDM (Mar 3, 2009)

Kaodi said:


> All I would ask is what reason they would have for not releasing Eberron next...





(it is the next one.  we are talking about the next next one.)


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## Obryn (Mar 3, 2009)

I think you misunderstand...  Eberron's this year.  This article is talking about the next setting, after that.

-O


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## Nebulous (Mar 3, 2009)

The big question for me is whether or not they can coerce BROM back to illustrate Dark Sun!  I sincerely doubt it, but his vision of Dark Sun was absolutely astounding.  Heck, 4e might just resample his stuff anyway.


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## Kaodi (Mar 3, 2009)

Oops. I don't have DDI, so I can't read the articles to begin with. I was just mistaking context from thread, and perhaps forgetting an earlier confirmation.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Mar 3, 2009)

Dark Sun and Spelljammer really need to be the flagship settings for an entirely new set of rules divorced from D&D but still under WotC. Along with Star Frontiers and Gamma World, there needs to be a new sci-fi "core" like Alternity (and to an extent d20 Modern). 

Throw Ravenloft into a new modern line, along with westerns and stuff like that.

That leaves Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim on the list. I can see these working as 4e D&D campaign settings.


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## Dragonblade (Mar 3, 2009)

It will be Dark Sun or Dragonlance, and I hope Dark Sun.

Ravenloft doesn't need a specific setting book since they can essntially merge Ravenloft into a future Shadowfell sourcebook. Which works for me.

Likewise, Spelljammer and Planescape probably will never get a dedicated setting book but will be spread out over the planar sourcebooks. With Sigil in the DMG2, Manual of the Planes and the upcoming Elemental Chaos sourcebook among others, you are covered.

Mystara, Greyhawk, and Birthright are too vanilla fantasy and they already did Realms.

Dragonlance is vanilla fantasy but has an active book publishing line to tie it with.

Dark Sun is my prediction and my preferred choice. As far as them not doing justice to it, well the only GOOD Dark Sun setting product was the original one before Troy Denning blew up the world with the Prism Pentad.

The Revised Dark Sun setting that came out later was garbage. The Dragon magazine revisit by David Noonan had the right idea by setting the timeline far enough in the future where the Prism Pentad stuff didn't matter, but it also had a few issues, like trying to bring in paladins and stuff.

With 4e that doesn't bother me as much since the 4e paladin class is more of a holy warrior and less a crusader for good. With suitable reflavoring, I'm ok with the 4e paladin in Dark Sun.

Personally, if I was designing Dark Sun, I would make a few drastic changes. I would have no Crimson Savanna or biotech halflings. The world would be all desert with a few isolated jungle regions in mountain areas where rainfall might occur. But, I would drop the whole oceans of silt thing and actually have salt water oceans. It just makes more sense from a scientific standpoint as to why a desert world would still have breathable oxygen (gigantic algae blooms) unless you intend to rip off Dune and use oxygen generating sandworms or something. There also has to be enough rainfall and water to keep subsistence farming viable.

I would also bring back Oronis of Kurn and keep Tyr as a free city. I think one Avangion SK and the free city would provide an adequate couple points of light in an otherwise bleak Road Warrior style fantasy world. In fact, bringing back Oronis provides a ready made explanation for paladins. They are Templars of Oronis. Dragonborn would be Dray. Tieflings I would drop altogether. And the other races would all need to be reflavored appropriately. You also need to add Muls, Half-giants, and Thri-Kreen.


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## Aloïsius (Mar 3, 2009)

No need for saltwater ocean to have oxygen in a world : it would takes millions, maybe hundred of millions of years to deplete Earth atmosphere of oxygen IMHO. Simply because it accumulated for nearly 4 billions years, and because most oxydable stuff is already oxyded. 
However, if they retcon Darksun for 4e and don't like the ocean of silt, I would be happy with giant salt desert.

IRL, when Gibraltar was closed, the mediterranean sea was just that : salt everywhere with miles deep canyon leading the river to toxic waters...


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## Chainsaw (Mar 3, 2009)

Nebulous said:


> The big question for me is whether or not they can coerce BROM back to illustrate Dark Sun! I sincerely doubt it, but his vision of Dark Sun was absolutely astounding. Heck, 4e might just resample his stuff anyway.




Totally agree. The artwork was absolutely incredible - definitely made me want to play in the setting (made me buy it at least). His vision was so cool and different that it really made the setting feel different from others - it wasn't just Greyhawk with different names and different monsters. Anyway, that's just me!


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## Silverblade The Ench (Mar 3, 2009)

Dark Sun would be best if it totally ignored ALL the garbage after the boxed set, bar Dune Trader (good supplement)!
As they wrecked an otherwise perfect setting, and and admitted as much, ie death to the Prism Pentad!

mercule,


> I can't fathom why Spelljammer got released in the first place, let alone a rerelease.



Um, cause it was damn FUN? 
D&D, in space, ala Pirates of the Caribbean, are you completely MAD not to see the fun inherent in that? hehe! 

_RAMMING SPEED!!!_


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## kitsune9 (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm not into 4e, but I would like to see an update to Planescape or Ravenloft just for the fluff.


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## greywulf (Mar 3, 2009)

My Little Pony 4th Edition 

Seriously, I'd be very happy with Dark Sun, Al-Qadim, Planescape _or_ Spelljammer. They're all excellent settings and well deserving a dust down for 4e. But I'd absolutely love a Birthright rendition. That's what would get my vote.


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## Blastin (Mar 4, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> What, no love for Birthright in the poll? I would have thought that would be a particularly good fit for 4e design and ethos.



  I would cry for joy over Birthright, but I doubt it will happen. I see the realms rules getting done eventually, but not the setting itself 
  As for Darksun: Re-do it. Keep the basics from the box set, forget all the later crap, and re-write the background so that all the core stuff from the PHB is included at baseline. No reason this couldn't be done so as to encourage more sales of the core books and yet still retain the essential cool elements of the setting. Sure it'll tork off the purists, but that's inevitable.


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## rounser (Mar 4, 2009)

Blackmoor, which is just wacky in a lot of ways and so could accomodate 4E's implied setting without too much harm.  "Dragon_what_ did you say you were?  Okay, whatever...here, hold the holy water fire hose."  

That, and they could do a _Return to the Garbage Pits of Despair_, which is logically the next retro module to pay tribute to on the list.


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## Shadowsong666 (Mar 4, 2009)

If they do Dragonlance 4e 2010 i am pretty sure that MWP will do all their adventures and campaign books 4e too, so WoTC provides the core books + 1 adventure and MWP would provide them with an active community and production of supplements for their world.

I don't know - but that sound pretty good for me as i don't know of any Dark Sun publisher with such an arsenal as MWP does for Dragonlance. Its huge and really good.

Besides that - 2009 is the anniversary of Dragonlance - why not announce a dragonlance setting in this year as well? Would make sense, wouldn't it? ^^


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## Nymrohd (Mar 4, 2009)

I'll agree on Dragonlance. With MWP and a good community behind it, they could publish the main setting, and MWP could support it with both adventures and further books. I read through some of their 3.5 adventures and they looked pretty good, so I'd expect this would be great news for Dragonlance.

And I would love Birthright at some point but without the regency system. It fits 4E quite well.


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## ProfessorCirno (Mar 4, 2009)

The problem with Dark Sun is that it clashes with 4e's image.  4e is "Points of very bright light surrounded by very shadowy darkness."  It's black and white - good is good, evil is evil.  The alignment and gods reflect it.  Dark Sun, on the other hand, is "Everything is grey.  Or black."

People are saying 4e is gritty, but I'm not seeing it.  4e is just standard fantasy with the "epic battle" knob cranked up a bit.  And if they don't want you to count your arrows, how on earth are they going to deal with you counting your food and water supplies?


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## wedgeski (Mar 4, 2009)

Much as I would love it to be DL, I just can't see it happening. That setting simply needs to rest for a while... maybe even for a whole edition.


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## kenmarable (Mar 4, 2009)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:


> We know Ki is a power source in PHB3, we simply suspect Psionic is also a power source.



That's confirmed? Cool, I missed that. I assumed psionics was a lock considering it was originally intended to be in PHB2, but was bumped to fit more arcane and divine in, and they did a lot of design work on it during PHB1 design time (but they also worked on at least monk at the time, too, if I recall).

Hmm... if ki is confirmed for PHB3, then I might have to change my vote. Although, "power source of PHBx indicating campaign setting y" isn't real clear. After all, primal has more to do with "we need to get barbarians and druids out there" than having any special place in Eberron.

But mulling over Kara Tur, I could really see that. Especially with the named special attacks and such, it can easily have that vibe to it. James Wyatt is their main OA guy over there (although, he's also one of their main story guys, so he'd probably be involved no matter the setting). Well, dagnabit, now I'm getting excited about a possible 4e Kara Tur! And here I was all gearing up for 4e Dark Sun.  (Or an all new setting! Those are my top 3 choices. Greyhawk and Dragonlance hold no real special place in my heart - they felt just as "pseudo-medieval fantasy" as Forgotten Realms and not enough variation for my personal tastes.)


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## JPL (Mar 4, 2009)

Well, I'd like to see a fresh attempt at Oriental Adventures.

Seems like some of the old properties are just too similar to what's been done already.  I can't see a 4th edition Greyhawk game session as playing much differently than a 4th edition Realms session.

Planescape will be adequately addressed by the Manual of the Planes + DMGII.  Not ideally, but adequately.

Were I a betting man, I'd bet on Dark Sun.  Very different vibe, works with Points of Light, and it's been dormant for many a year.


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## Verys Arkon (Mar 4, 2009)

I'll echo the prediction that Dark Sun is the next setting released.  

Rather than try and deal with the later releases in the 2e version, I'd suggest rewinding the clock a few years, or centuries, before the original boxed set, with a page or two describing a different era of play for those interested.  

In Star War Saga Edition, there are distinct eras of play - it works there, it could here too though more limited in scope.  That way, the canon purists and those that want to incorporate all the 2e material can get along and we can avoid the FR debates.

Second choice would be to design a new setting from scratch, but really push the boundaries.  Skip vanilla fantasy - you've got FR already.


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## Shadowsong666 (Mar 4, 2009)

Why not Greyhawk as token of WoTCs esteem for the passed away Gygax? Ok, he wasn't a fan of 4e, right? But that wouldn't be the point.

Well here are some facts then:

In the *Manual of the Planes* _*Oerth*_ and _*Krynn*_ get mentioned unter _"The World"_ (page 7) and _"The World Axis Cosmology"_ (page 12). 
_*Athas*_ has just an entry on page 12.

If thats not really telling you whats coming i don't know what to say.


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## JPL (Mar 4, 2009)

I think they'll just straight-up reboot Dark Sun rather than continue the previous timeline.  Not sure where I'm getting that hunch.  My sense is that Dark Sun was more about the *feel* than the specific people / places /events.  Better to just reimagine, and build it to better fit the new rules.  Get the dragonborn in there from Day 1, that sort of thing.


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## Wolfwood2 (Mar 4, 2009)

JPL said:


> I think they'll just straight-up reboot Dark Sun rather than continue the previous timeline. Not sure where I'm getting that hunch. My sense is that Dark Sun was more about the *feel* than the specific people / places /events. Better to just reimagine, and build it to better fit the new rules. Get the dragonborn in there from Day 1, that sort of thing.




I agree. Other than a few magazine articles, Dark Sun has been out of print for a long time now. Coming back and starting fresh seems like a good idea.


I think the important things to keep are:

A harsh world of city-states ruled by Dragon Kings (epic level tyrants) separated by nearly unliveable wilderness
A world where slavery, murder, and betrayal of anyone who is not part of your people are the accepted way of doing things
A sense that the world has faded from a green past to harsh deserts, with accompanying old ruins buried in the sands of time
I would do away with:

The whole Preserver/Defiler business; wizards arent special anymore, and there are plenty of classes that manipulate magic in some way or another [1]
The detailed backstory on how things got to be the way they are; all you need to know is that the world used to be Awesome and now it's Messed Up
[1] Alternately you could make Preservers and Defilers still exist, but completely independent of class.  Anyone can choose to Defile for power if they know the trick.


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## Nymrohd (Mar 4, 2009)

I see a lot of people want Dark Sun. Don't get me wrong it is a great setting and you can have a lot of fun with it, but I don't think it is a good choice of a setting to release until near the end of 4E. Dark Sun will either have to be mutilated or will simply not support the vast majority of 4E concepts. All the races are drastically redefined there, very few of the classic monsters exist there, the concept of dragon is entirely different. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, heck even Spelljammer, fit far better with 4E concepts.

And I'd rather not have a setting that is named Dark Sun yet shares little of the original lore, even if it keeps some of the setting concepts intact.


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## TheWyrd (Mar 4, 2009)

I feel like DarkSun would be a great opportunity to really play with the power sources of 4e. Psionics would go in as is and Elemental would likely replace Divine. Rather than arcane, you could do Preserver and Defiler power sources.. and of course include a mechanic for switching back and forth. Maybe Preserver/Defiler is the same power source and the defining portion of the source's classes (like all divine have the channel divinity) involves switching back and forth.


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## Dedekind (Mar 4, 2009)

TheWyrd said:


> Psionics would go in as is and Elemental would likely replace Divine. Rather than arcane, you could do Preserver and Defiler power sources.. and of course include a mechanic for switching back and forth.




Probably not a bad idea, but it seems they are committed to making everything that is core also fit in their settings. I know that was the philosophy on Eberron and I think it was the case for FR. So, Divine would _have _to be included with these parameters.


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## Vayden (Mar 5, 2009)

Oriental Adventure! Oriental Adventure! Oriental Adventure!

(By which I mean an original and good Asian themed setting. If they do Rokugan again I may have to disembowel myself with a spoon.)

Samurai! Monk! Ninja! Owlbear! (huh?)


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## TwinBahamut (Mar 5, 2009)

I think we are likely to see Dark Sun, Oriental Adventures, or something totally new. I think I would be happy with any of those three.

I really don't know much about Dark Sun at all, other than the fact that it is popular and _different_, and I think those are strong qualities for anything coming after the Realms and Eberron. Any form of well-known, "vanilla" fantasy will be a hard sell for the next few years after those two giants, so something that stands out is most likely next. As such, I doubt we will see Dragonlance for a few years yet.

As for Oriental Adventures, I am hoping that when we get such a thing it will be a totally new version of such a setting, not a remake of Kara-Tur and certainly not Rokugan.

Most of all, though, I really want to see the other two finalists of the Setting Search.


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## rounser (Mar 5, 2009)

> Most of all, though, I really want to see the other two finalists of the Setting Search.



I think I read somewhere that they were cannibalised to make Eberron.  Is that true?


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## darjr (Mar 5, 2009)

Didn't wizards just rerelease a bunch of DarkSun novels? I wonder if they are guaging the interest, I wonder if voting with my dollar would push them towards it as next?

Note that I voted for spelljammer.


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## Mostlyjoe (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm praying that it's Dark Sun.


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## Glyfair (Mar 5, 2009)

rounser said:


> I think I read somewhere that they were cannibalised to make Eberron.  Is that true?



I believe it has been stated that the Aernal elves had bits and pieces lifted from Rich Burlew's entry by James Wyatt. The whole worshipping their "not undead" ancestors.

I don't believe I have heard anything else specifically was lifted.


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## Knightfall (Mar 6, 2009)

Nymrohd said:


> Greyhawk? I heard some rumors way back that there was a plan to reboot Greyhawk. I'd be very curious to see that.



If they do that and stay true to "history" and "feel" of Greyhawk then I might reconsider 4e. As the very least, I'd buy the campaign book.


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## Knightfall (Mar 6, 2009)

TDRandall said:


> Good grief you young'uns!  Why has nobody thought of Mystara/Known World yet (OD&D)?
> 
> I haven't gone 4E so I don't know all of the specifics, but if it supposed to includes "anything for anybody" as somebody mentions, I know that that world was certainly starting to feel like it as the Voyage of the Princess Ark Dragon series continued.
> 
> Yep - Hollow World, Savage Coast with curse of Red Steel/Smoke Powder, Thyatia, Glantri, Alphatia (whether pre or post Day of Magic), Heldannic Territories, Hul, Ethengar Khanate and Emirates of Ylaruam, Ostland/Vestland, etc. etc. etc.  Certainly enough points to light up there!



Now that is an interesting idea! A lot of 4Es structure would work well with Mystara. Immortals = Primordials.


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## Dragonblade (Mar 6, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> Now that is an interesting idea! A lot of 4Es structure would work well with Mystara. Immortals = Primordials.




Not really. Immortals were the gods of the Mystara world, IRC.


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## amethal (Mar 6, 2009)

rounser said:


> I think I read somewhere that they were cannibalised to make Eberron.  Is that true?



Yes, its true, you definitely did . I read it somewhere as well.

Its an interesting rumour but (apart from what Glyfair mentioned) I've never seen any evidence.

It would be great if each of the three settings had its own "long lost evil threat", and they decided to put them all into Eberron. It would make me feel better about how I can never keep them straight in my head.

Giants vs Aberrations?, Orcs vs ?, Quori? Lords of Dust? Coatl getting involved somewhere? Dealkyr being another threat or maybe part of one of the previous factions? Probably Dragons involved at some point?


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## Knightfall (Mar 6, 2009)

Dragonblade said:


> Not really. Immortals were the gods of the Mystara world, IRC.



The Immortals were godlike and many of them had names that were based on many Real World mythologies, but the idea for Mystara was that th Immortals weren't truly deities.

I could be remembering it wrong, so I'm not sure. I think it was (and still is) a hotly debated issue amongst fans of the Known World.


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## jsaving (Mar 6, 2009)

This thread's about what the next setting will be, not what people *hope* it will be, right?

With that in mind, on what logical basis do people believe Dark Sun is likely to be the next setting?  I agree that it's an interesting and innovative place to adventure, but its dark and gritty done is antithetical to the clear "good guys versus bad guys" paradigm the designers are pushing for 4e.  And on a more practical level, WotC's recent firing of Noonan -- the person most responsible for making the setting what it is today -- doesn't lend much credence to the idea that they're itching to bring Dark Sun back.  Finally, much as I like Dark Sun, it isn't an especially popular setting and hence doesn't jibe with WotC claims that "a lot of people will be pleased" with the next setting selection.

With Eberron not having a whole lot to do with the primal source, it's fallacious to think Dark Sun must be the 2010 choice because the PH3 might focus on psionics.  Even if the general idea linking power sources to settings were right, Kara-Tur would seem to be a much stronger choice than Dark Sun for two reasons.  First, ki has been confirmed for the PH3 whereas psi has only been hinted at, and second, both authors have some familiarity with Kara-Tur (heck, Wyatt wrote two of the OA sourcebooks) whereas neither one of them has done much with Dark Sun.  

But I think people are overthinking the problem a bit.  If you look at which settings have a specific reason to be published in 2010, only two of them get over the bar: Greyhawk because of Gygax's death and Dragonlance because of its fast-approaching anniversary date.  Both of these settings were wildly popular back in the day and have a fair amount of residual goodwill, almost ensuring a fairly large cheerleading contingent if they were to be selected.  And the fact that we're likely to see both of them over the next few years is strongly foreshadowed in the Manual of the Planes, which specifically calls these places out while barely throwing a bone to the other settings under consideration in this thread.  Why make the reference unless the settings are actually going to be explored?

I like Dark Sun, but I just don't think it is very likely it will make its triumphant reappearance in 2010.


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## Wraith Form (Mar 6, 2009)

Dragonblade said:


> Ravenloft doesn't need a specific setting book since they can essntially merge Ravenloft into a future Shadowfell sourcebook. Which works for me.




What Dragonblade said.  Also, I don't see Ravenloft working well within 4th edition's confines (with it's focus on combat, tactics & minis).  Ravenloft requires a bit more....cerebral? storytelling?....approach to _role_playing, and 4th edition is a bit more in the _roll_playing camp.

(With all due respect.)


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## Obryn (Mar 6, 2009)

Wraith Form said:


> What Dragonblade said.  Also, I don't see Ravenloft working well within 4th edition's confines (with it's focus on combat, tactics & minis).  Ravenloft requires a bit more....cerebral? storytelling?....approach to _role_playing, and 4th edition is a bit more in the _roll_playing camp.
> 
> (With all due respect.)



There isn't a rolleyes smiley big enough for this.

-O


----------



## Keefe the Thief (Mar 7, 2009)

Wraith Form said:


> What Dragonblade said.  Also, I don't see Ravenloft working well within 4th edition's confines (with it's focus on combat, tactics & minis).  Ravenloft requires a bit more....cerebral? storytelling?....approach to _role_playing, and 4th edition is a bit more in the _roll_playing camp.
> 
> (With all due respect.)




"Cerebral Storytelling" - clearly a thing of the past, long gone, destroyed when rollplaying rolled over roleplaying. Thinking became tactics, wonder turned into wargaming, miniatures replaced myth.
How did D&D lose these core tenets, and who on the 4e design team is responsible? Read it on ENworld first!


----------



## ki11erDM (Mar 7, 2009)

Obryn said:


> There isn't a rolleyes smiley big enough for this.
> 
> -O





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Well that does not work to well but close!


----------



## Silverblade The Ench (Mar 7, 2009)

Keefe the Thief said:


> "Cerebral Storytelling" - clearly a thing of the past, long gone, destroyed when rollplaying rolled over roleplaying. Thinking became tactics, wonder turned into wargaming, miniatures replaced myth.
> How did D&D lose these core tenets, and who on the 4e design team is responsible? Read it on ENworld first!




I trust that's meant as an ironic joke? 

I love 4th ed , but here's a secret any DM shoudl know:


> Mechanics maketh not the roleplaying!
> Good co-operation of DM and players does.




enough eidtion wars please, stick on subject 

4th ed Dark Sun and Spelljammer would really cheer me up!

Birthright was a setting that was too "under done" IMHO, the emphasis on "few powerful folk" got in way of adventuring, which weakened the logic of D&D play, I think.
I'd rather Birthright had been more "gritty and low magic", rather than making it clear that only those with Bloodlines were capable of doing anything more than farting loudly at a goblin! 
ie, if it was up to me, 4th ed Birthright would have two ranks of characters: those with Bloodlines and those without. Only Bloodlines allow a character to have any spellcasting (or psionic) ability, but, you pay for that and the rank etc, with having folk trying to kill you all the damn time, or maybe limiting your powers to within a specific country.
And double the level of magic items, making them rarer and less powerful.

The 1st boxed set of the Realms was beautiful, yes very Tolkinesque but you know what? that was a GOOD thing, so was vast empty bits on maps, beautiful, evocative artwork rather than "sexxorz stuff".
Note: the simple line drawings/cketches in the 1st boxed set was perfect, sometimes setting thematic style is much more important, than product style.
See Dark SUn, Ravenloft, early Realms and Spelljammer products.
The Realms got far too "civilizationed" *he sings a Danny Kay song in background* hehe.

basic D&D, Hollow World I never played so can't comment on.

Al-Qadim was interesting and fun.
Maztica I never got the set for, but sounded possibly interesting.

Ravenloft was great, but way it was messed around with all the time sucked!

Spelljammer too many folk couldn't "get", Pirates of the Caribbean wans't out or they may have. Some better rules on ship to ship fighting: simplicity-wise, would have helped.
If you can't get why the idea of yer characters ramming a Deathspider at high speed while standing on the deck of your Squidship, firing the ballista and _Fireballs _is bloody damn good fun...then, bah, yer weak sauce, matey! 

I think the devs went a bit too far with planar changes in 4th ed. Planescapes concept of "Philosophy, BELIEF is what drives the Multiverse" was outstanding. The factions are _really _about what they _believe in_. That's a fantastic concept for fantasy roleplaying. 
No damn use being a cross-trading lily-liver in the Planes, berk! 
But again, to follow a demand TSR wanted, bah, the factions got "officially" mostly wiped out.

Sigh. Don't mess up campaign settings: leave that STRICTLY to the players and DM!


----------



## M.L. Martin (Mar 8, 2009)

Wraith Form said:


> What Dragonblade said.  Also, I don't see Ravenloft working well within 4th edition's confines (with it's focus on combat, tactics & minis).  Ravenloft requires a bit more....cerebral? storytelling?....approach to _role_playing, and 4th edition is a bit more in the _roll_playing camp.
> 
> (With all due respect.)




  The 'rollplaying' crack is unnecessary and obnoxious, but the difference in styles is, I think, a fact. A mood of Gothic horror and Ravenloft's general style ("making the moral choice is more important than making the valiant choice"--William W. Connors, DRAGON #315) is tough to mesh with the emphasis on reliability and predictability in 4E and with dragonborn, goliaths, devas, tieflings, and warlocks running around. Doing 4E Ravenloft would probably require substantial changes to one or the other. 

   Really, with 4E being the most self-referentially 'D&D fantasy' focused edition of the game yet (an honor it took from early 3rd edition), we're much more likely to see future settings based on the 'core D&D' paradigm--lots of magic, wide openness to new elements, and 'kill them and take their stuff' as the _raison d'etre_.  If that's the case, then given all other factors, I'd say it's Greyhawk, Dragonlance, or Dark Sun as the most likely, in descending order.


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## Barcode (Mar 8, 2009)

I never played more Dark Sun than a few sessions at Gen Con, but I liked it and I think it's coming back.  The reason is that dark, apocalyptic settings tend to do well in times of uncertainty and turmoil.  The youth in such times tend to eat up mainstream nihilism with a spoon.  Witness that WAR's cover art for 4Eberron reflects this fact - they went with scenes from the Mournland, emphasizing the wasted landscape.  This, for a setting with a stated theme of pulp adventure.

Consider also that WotC's main target audience is unlikely to have seen more Dark Sun than possibly a worn box set at Crazy Egor's.  For them, it will be as fresh as anything brand new they might produce.  They could pretty safely reboot/rebuild/reimagine the setting, chucking established canon out the window, and only offend a relatively small number of people, who let's face it, were probably going to be offended no matter what they did.

I also think that by the time they are into their third setting, there will be some market value in exploring new thematic territory.  That's why I think Greyhawk is unlikely, as it would just be more high fantasy.  They'll still want to have a place for the core races and classes, but it won't be as crucial.  What they will want to do is provide setting support for their most recent releases - aka the PHB3.


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## Obryn (Mar 8, 2009)

Matthew L. Martin said:


> The 'rollplaying' crack is unnecessary and obnoxious, but the difference in styles is, I think, a fact. A mood of Gothic horror and Ravenloft's general style ("making the moral choice is more important than making the valiant choice"--William W. Connors, DRAGON #315) is tough to mesh with the emphasis on reliability and predictability in 4E and with dragonborn, goliaths, devas, tieflings, and warlocks running around. Doing 4E Ravenloft would probably require substantial changes to one or the other.



Honestly, I find Ravenloft tough to buy at first blush.  To me, it's always been about mixing Conan with Count Dracula.  It's just a funny mash-up that strains credibility.  Adding a tiefling or a warlock will hardly break the setting any more than it's already been broken.  And goliaths & dragonborn are no more inherently silly than elves with many-voweled names.

-O


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## JeffB (Mar 8, 2009)

I think the absolute best fit for 4E (and what I'd like to see) is not a poll option- The Known World/Mystara (pre AD&D2E versions I'd hope)

TKW/Mystara or Mearls' Greyhawk re-do (mentioned here many months back) are the only things I'd spend the coin on personally.  I gave up on FR last edition! 

That said- my guess will be either of the D's.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 8, 2009)

Matthew L Martin said:
			
		

> The 'rollplaying' crack is unnecessary and obnoxious, but the difference in styles is, I think, a fact. A mood of Gothic horror and Ravenloft's general style ("making the moral choice is more important than making the valiant choice"--William W. Connors, DRAGON #315) is tough to mesh with the emphasis on reliability and predictability in 4E and with dragonborn, goliaths, devas, tieflings, and warlocks running around. Doing 4E Ravenloft would probably require substantial changes to one or the other.
> 
> Really, with 4E being the most self-referentially 'D&D fantasy' focused edition of the game yet (an honor it took from early 3rd edition), we're much more likely to see future settings based on the 'core D&D' paradigm--lots of magic, wide openness to new elements, and 'kill them and take their stuff' as the raison d'etre.




I agree. I think I would *rather* see Greyhawk and Dragonlance than Dark Sun and Ravenloft for this reason. 

It is, however, kind of disappointing to me that 4e won't embrace are re-definition of its own terms. I play different settings to play different types of heroes, to re-define the kinds of adventures and the kinds of characters I play. Different settings appeal to me as different genrea. 

It's kind of disappointing that 4e is all the same game, just with different names.


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## Nymrohd (Mar 8, 2009)

I think it is reasonable for 4E to be somewhat unwilling to refedine  basic terms for the first two years of its release (which includes the first 3 campaign settings). But after a while some redefinition may well be a good idea.


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## Skywalker (Mar 9, 2009)

My guess is Dark Sun. With PHB3 introducing Psionics, I think WotC will want to stretch its 4e legs with the 3rd setting.


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## Henry (Mar 9, 2009)

What WILL they do? No clue.

What do I WANT them to do? Dark Sun. I'd love to see it make a comeback. Unlike some sentiment here, Ari Marmell had a thread on ENWorld a while back working out the loose concepts of a Dark Sun setting, and it was going pretty well. It convinced me that 4E could convincingly do even a survivalist setting like Dark Sun rather well.


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## jdrakeh (Mar 9, 2009)

Obryn said:


> Honestly, I find Ravenloft tough to buy at first blush.  To me, it's always been about mixing Conan with Count Dracula.  It's just a funny mash-up that strains credibility.  Adding a tiefling or a warlock will hardly break the setting any more than it's already been broken.  And goliaths & dragonborn are no more inherently silly than elves with many-voweled names.




To some degree, I concurr. It always seemed that, if there was ever a novel penned or film directed about a particular creature, the writers were forced to fit it into the Ravenloft setting somehow. I mean, it has zombies, werewolves, ghosts, mummies, Dracula, Frankenstein's monster, ad nauseum. 

People can (and no doubt _will_) say that every monster of Ravenloft is a unique gem of creativity that owes no debt to modern movie monsters or classic Horror fiction. All this tells me is that such people haven't watched too many modern monster movies or read very much classic Horror fiction. For better or worse, I've been exposed to a lot of both.  

This being the case, when Ravenloft borrows so much from better known genre works in such blatant ways, it borders on satire for the people familiar with said sources. It _can_ be overwhelming at times. Despite this, I still like Ravenloft a _lot_ (I'd say that it is my second favorite official AD&D setting, surpassed only by Greyhawk). 

That said, I don't recall Ravenloft containing any rules that made it any more 'role-play' oriented than other D&D settings, though I guess that the Tarokka was an _attempt_ at such rules (albeit one that never seemed to work out very well for publishers). For me, Ravenloft always seemed like bog standard D&D steeped in the tropes of Horror easily indentified as originating from other sources (which, incidentally, is why I like it).


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## Wraith Form (Mar 9, 2009)

Matthew L. Martin said:


> The 'rollplaying' crack is unnecessary and obnoxious, but the difference in styles is, I think, a fact.




I am going to be unapologetic about this.  (Not just the above quote, but everyone who felt the need to respond.)  My intent wasn't to be 'obnoxious'...it was to simply observe that Ravenloft has a "less superhero" approach to D&D (for most RL gamers) and that 4th edition is all about playing cinematic action-heroes.

Ravenloft is absolutely playable with 4th edition, but it seems to me (in my _opinion_) that it's ill-fitting and goes against RL's themes of 'everyman' heroes against overwhelming adversity.

I've been gaming and buying the books for both Ravenloft and 4th edition since the day they came out, so my feelings about their compatibility aren't based on lack of experience with either.

Matthew's post actually said it much more eloquently compared to the way that I intended in my original post.  Now, let's move on please.


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## Obryn (Mar 9, 2009)

Wraith Form said:


> I am going to be unapologetic about this.  (Not just the above quote, but everyone who felt the need to respond.)  My intent wasn't to be 'obnoxious'...it was to simply observe that Ravenloft has a "less superhero" approach to D&D (for most RL gamers) and that 4th edition is all about playing cinematic action-heroes.
> 
> Ravenloft is absolutely playable with 4th edition, but it seems to me (in my _opinion_) that it's ill-fitting and goes against RL's themes of 'everyman' heroes against overwhelming adversity.
> 
> ...



I think the part where I disagree is ... well, I guess everything, now that I think about it.

I think you're interjecting a narrative into Ravenloft that isn't really there - or wasn't when I was mostly checking it out, during 2e.  As I said before, at its core, it's Conan meets Count Dracula.  Originally, it was a sideshow - your party of normal old D&D characters are wandering around, the DM throws a pile of mist at them, and poof!  They're in Ravenloft, killing werewolves and vampires and skeletons and mummies and anything else that made an appearance in black & white horror movies.

I don't see where it's ever been about "everymen" conquering vast horrors, unless that was something White Wolf threw into it during their turn at the helm.  It's about already-superheroic elves with silly names and ale-loving dwarves getting thrown into a land where undead are a little beefier, Dracula is real, and everyone's sad most of the time.  It was like a parody of gothic horror.

...am I missing something?

-O


----------



## Klaus (Mar 9, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> To some degree, I concurr. It always seemed that, if there was ever a novel penned or film directed about a particular creature, the writers were forced to fit it into the Ravenloft setting somehow. I mean, it has zombies, werewolves, ghosts, mummies, Dracula, Frankenstein's monster, ad nauseum.
> 
> People can (and no doubt _will_) say that every monster of Ravenloft is a unique gem of creativity that owes no debt to modern movie monsters or classic Horror fiction. All this tells me is that such people haven't watched too many modern monster movies or read very much classic Horror fiction. For better or worse, I've been exposed to a lot of both.
> 
> ...



Look at the perfect Raveloft movie, "Sleepy Hollow". That is how Ravenloft feels to me, as opposed to the ealier "FR characters get drawn into gothic setting".

The thing with Ravenloft is that every monster or NPC, while based on familar -- even clichéd -- tropes, has its own backstory and personality. It's never "werewolf #2", it's "Karl Yugsbern, werewolf".


----------



## ki11erDM (Mar 9, 2009)

After thinking about it for a while I just want them to release something that is minable for my own world, as I won’t be running anything they publish anyway.

  Eberron is not, in anyway, minable for me, and I will not be buying any of the books.  4e’s FR’s countries have been minable, as well as the new classes and mechanics (which is why I love the FR books).  Darksun’s rules could be but the fluff will be useless.  I am already heavily mining old Ravenloft fluff (incorporating 4e’s shadowfell ideas) so some mechanics to go with would be nice.  DL… won’t be minable for me.  OA could be darn nice as I have a spot open on my campaign map for that type of setting.

  But what I really want to see is something new.  Maybe something based on either Nordic or Egyptian lore.


----------



## jdrakeh (Mar 9, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Look at the perfect Raveloft movie, "Sleepy Hollow". That is how Ravenloft feels to me, as opposed to the ealier "FR characters get drawn into gothic setting".




I think it _can_ feel like that, but it takes some work on the part of the DM to maintain that feel consistently. Out of the box, parts of Ravenloft _absolutely_ have the feel. Other parts of it have a "OMG! Let's watch some Hammer films and go on a vodka bender!" feel. 



> The thing with Ravenloft is that every monster or NPC, while based on familar -- even clichéd -- tropes, has its own backstory and personality. It's never "werewolf #2", it's "Karl Yugsbern, werewolf".




I think that this is usually true but not always. That said, it's also not always a problem, as I previously mention — it's only a problem when the tropes become so frequent or so blatant as to be absurd (a problem that, again, I find must be mitigated by the GM from time to time). 

Frex, the were-X thing that was going on with Darklords (or pretenders) for a period was frustratingly stupid, IMHO. I, of course, refer to the apparent mandate to have a Darklord of every possible were-creature type. Were-badger? WTF?!?


----------



## TwoSix (Mar 9, 2009)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I agree. I think I would *rather* see Greyhawk and Dragonlance than Dark Sun and Ravenloft for this reason.
> 
> It is, however, kind of disappointing to me that 4e won't embrace are re-definition of its own terms. I play different settings to play different types of heroes, to re-define the kinds of adventures and the kinds of characters I play. Different settings appeal to me as different genrea.
> 
> It's kind of disappointing that 4e is all the same game, just with different names.




Consider the design team has been working on 4e for at least 3 years now.  They might be both a) comfortable enough with the system and b) desirous of a new challenge; to pick a more radical setting to show off the modularity of 4e's design and stretch their design legs out a bit.


----------



## morgul97 (Mar 9, 2009)

Barcode said:


> The reason is that dark, apocalyptic settings tend to do well in times of uncertainty and turmoil. The youth in such times tend to eat up mainstream nihilism with a spoon.




Keep in mind also that Cormac McCarthy's The Road is coming out in movie form later this summer.  It's a fabulous, gritty, dark post-apocalyptic setting.  The book is spectacular in its starkness.  The movie is going to be a huge hit and probably nominated for a ton of Oscars and stuch.  This year as the year of the Ballywood movie.  2009 will be the year of the apocalypse.  Watchmen is also part of this.  I'd look for other movies along the same line to come out.  There is also something of a revival of the pulp novel going on.  Wizards will totally want to capitalize on these elements and Darksun is a perfect fit.  It's post-apocalyptic mixed with Edgar Rice Burroughs and it's likely to be a huge hit.


----------



## Mercule (Mar 9, 2009)

JPL said:


> I think they'll just straight-up reboot Dark Sun rather than continue the previous timeline.  Not sure where I'm getting that hunch.  My sense is that Dark Sun was more about the *feel* than the specific people / places /events.  Better to just reimagine, and build it to better fit the new rules.  Get the dragonborn in there from Day 1, that sort of thing.






TheWyrd said:


> I feel like DarkSun would be a great opportunity to really play with the power sources of 4e. Psionics would go in as is and Elemental would likely replace Divine. Rather than arcane, you could do Preserver and Defiler power sources.. and of course include a mechanic for switching back and forth. Maybe Preserver/Defiler is the same power source and the defining portion of the source's classes (like all divine have the channel divinity) involves switching back and forth.



I like all of the above and would happily buy such a source book, even if I didn't think I'd run an actual Athas game.  Between the coolness of the setting and the number of ideas I got of of the original, that's not really the point, for me -- especially not when the settings are only getting limited support.



Dedekind said:


> Probably not a bad idea, but it seems they are committed to making everything that is core also fit in their settings.



I haven't actually seen this confirmed by anyone from WotC, but it is a concern for me.  I really think trying to ensure the entirety of core is always included is an incredibly boneheaded idea for turning out settings.  Actually, I think it'd be better for them to not publish any settings beyond FR (including Eberron) if they insist on that.  We've already got an "all core" setting.  

The main thing I want from additional settings is to show me neat ways to alter, tweak, or otherwise violate core.


----------



## Vic_Sage (Mar 9, 2009)

Wraith Form said:


> What Dragonblade said.  Also, I don't see Ravenloft working well within 4th edition's confines (with it's focus on combat, tactics & minis).  Ravenloft requires a bit more....cerebral? storytelling?....approach to _role_playing, and 4th edition is a bit more in the _roll_playing camp.
> 
> (With all due respect.)


----------



## Wraith Form (Mar 11, 2009)

^ Right.  That'd be even more hurtful to me if his eye was actually pointing in the right direction.  'Cause then he'd actually look, y'know, _mad_ at me.

I'm entitled to my own bloody opinion, even if you don't agree with it.  

Lay off already.


----------



## Knightfall (Apr 3, 2009)

I just had a crazy thought...

What if the new campaign setting isn't one of the old TSR settings but is the world of Magic: The Gathering?


----------



## Silverblade The Ench (Apr 3, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> I just had a crazy thought...
> 
> What if the new campaign setting isn't one of the old TSR settings but is the world of Magic: The Gathering?




Personally, I'd then require a vomit bowl the size of a bath tub, personally!  
ick,what a horrible thought, you evil, evil person you!! 

Now a really GOOD crazy thought would be: 
_"Plush Sun, can you face the rolling ball of the mighty Hamster gods?"_
Woolly Rupert, sorceror-king of Nibble-Tyr!

Works for me! 

Wonder if Nodwick and Co are still stuck in that sand castle in Athas, hm? hehe.


----------



## El Mahdi (Apr 3, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> I just had a crazy thought...
> 
> What if the new campaign setting isn't one of the old TSR settings but is the world of Magic: The Gathering?






Silverblade The Ench said:


> Personally, I'd then require a vomit bowl the size of a bath tub, personally!
> ick,what a horrible thought, you evil, evil person you!!
> 
> Now a really GOOD crazy thought would be:
> ...






You are both _Very Bad Men_!  For Shame, Sirs!  For Shame!



However, on the plus side this might get us some stats for _Duct Tape_ as a healing implement.  And I could use Drizzt' now in the Magic: The Gathering campaign.


----------



## Krensky (Apr 3, 2009)

Obviously it's a licensed version of the Songs of Sorcelation, based on the PHB3 preview.


----------



## Aeolius (Apr 4, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> If they do that and stay true to "history" and "feel" of Greyhawk then I might reconsider 4e. As the very least, I'd buy the campaign book.




Seconded, save for the part about reconsidering 4e.  I'd pick up a 4e World of Greyhawk Glossography/Gazetteer just for the fluff.


----------



## doctorhook (Apr 4, 2009)

Vic_Sage said:


>



I missed whatever conversation you two had been having, but I find this picture both very effective and hilarious. He looks crazy.


----------



## ProfessorPain (Apr 4, 2009)

I am a Ravenloft Man, but I am going to guess Dark Sun. It was their most unique setting, and I think it fits the point of light concept pretty well.


----------



## El Mahdi (Apr 4, 2009)

doctorhook said:


> ... but I find this picture both very effective and hilarious. He looks crazy.




It's the best Hmm, Erm, or Confused smiley Evar!

(One might even say _*300*_ times better!)


----------



## Hairfoot (Apr 4, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> What if the new campaign setting isn't one of the old TSR settings but is the world of Magic: The Gathering?



What if the new setting is the World of World of Warcraft, just to complete the synthesis with 4E?


----------



## Piratecat (Apr 4, 2009)

Hairfoot said:


> What if the new setting is the World of World of Warcraft, just to complete the synthesis with 4E?



What if we deliberately tried to fan the flames and goad people into arguing?

Cut it out, folks.


----------



## Nymrohd (Apr 4, 2009)

Well I would not mind if WoD made a 4E WoW RPG to be honest, it has good potential as a game world for D&D. And some of the Magic worlds have a lot of interesting flavor (though I'd rather not see Dominaria in favor of one of the later blocks, like Ravnica or even Lorwyn). I for one think it will be Dragonlance at this point, mainly because several people over at those forums seem to be certain DL will get a 4E treatment at some point soon and it arguably is more active in novels than Eberron. I'd like Dark Sun as well, but I don't mind waiting for it after all the relevant classes are out. A rebooted Greyhawk would also be awesome.


----------



## Maggan (Apr 4, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Look at the perfect Raveloft movie, "Sleepy Hollow". That is how Ravenloft feels to me, as opposed to the ealier "FR characters get drawn into gothic setting".




To me, Sleepy Hollow feels more like WFRP, but I can totally see it as a Ravenloft thing as well.

/M


----------



## Knightfall (Apr 4, 2009)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Personally, I'd then require a vomit bowl the size of a bath tub, personally!
> ick,what a horrible thought, you evil, evil person you!!






El Mahdi said:


> You are both _Very Bad Men_!  For Shame, Sirs!  For Shame!



It was just a random thought that entered my brain. I don't even play Magic.

I just remembered during 3rd Edition's initial push that the idea of M:TG as a 3e setting came up but that most fans rejected the idea because they didn't believe the style of M:TG was compatible with 3e. Well, 4e is a very different game so perhaps M:TG is more compatible with it than 3e.

I wasn't trying to start a D&D vs. M:TG war. Honest.


----------



## Asmor (Apr 4, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> I just had a crazy thought...
> 
> What if the new campaign setting isn't one of the old TSR settings but is the world of Magic: The Gathering?




There isn't a "world of Magic: The Gathering" any more than there's a "world of Dungeons & Dragons."

Dominia is a multiverse with countless planes. There's sort of a "core group" of planes which interacted in an overarching story for a long time. Specifically, Dominaria was the original setting of Magic in 1993 and featured heavily in the game's storyline through the release of Scourge, 10 years later. That storyline also included Phyrexia, Rath, and some others I don't know off the top of my head.

However, the very first expansion for Magic, Arabian Nights, took place in the plane of Rabiah which had no ties at the time and as far as I'm aware has never been revisited since.

Mirrodin was only tenuously connected to the events in Dominaria (a dominarian planeswalker named Karn planted the seeds of Mirrodin). Ravnica and Kamigawa are completely unrelated with each other or any other planes. I don't know anything about the planes of the most recent sets, Lorwyn and Alara, but I'm pretty sure they're largely independent as well.

Dominaria and Lorwyn are largely "traditional" fantasy settings. Ravnica is a planet covered entirely by a massive city. Mirrodin is a world where everything is partially mechanical, and even the seas are made of quicksilver. Kamigawa is an oriental fantasy, Rabiah is Arabian fantasy.

On top of that, the planes are not necessarily static. Mirage took place on Dominaria, but on a continent known as Jamuraa which was based heavily in African imagery and lore. The Ice Age block took place during, well, a magical Ice Age on Dominaria, and feel wise it was very different from the normal Dominaria.

So what I'm saying is there's quite a bit of variety there. Personally, I'd welcome a book based on a Magic setting, but I believe they've said in the past that that's never going to happen. Particularly, I'd like to have a Brothers War-era Dominaria setting or a Ravnica setting.

I've even gone so far as to adapt some Magic things to D&D, specifically slivers and the Ravnican guilds



Silverblade The Ench said:


> Personally, I'd then require a vomit bowl the size of a bath tub, personally!
> ick,what a horrible thought, you evil, evil person you!!




Pray tell, what specific objections do you have to a setting based on any of the Magic: The Gathering planes? Assuming your revulsion is anything other than a kneejerk reaction.


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## The Little Raven (Apr 4, 2009)

Kunimatyu said:


> That being said, unless they've switched PHB3 from psionic to Power Source Asian, maybe not.




We've been told that in May we'll see the Monk, which will be of the Ki power source and in the PHB3.

I hope to see Dark Sun or possibly Greyhawk, if Mike Mearls' homebrew version is a glimpse of the way they are going.


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## TwinBahamut (Apr 4, 2009)

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a Magic: The Gathering derived D&D setting. If nothing else, it would bring some interesting new concepts to D&D settings that would help it break outside of the normal limitations of D&Disms. Of course, I also wouldn't mind seeing a Magic block that took a lot of inspiration from D&D. Actually, combining the two and creating a specific plane within the Magic cosmology that contains all the tropes of a D&D setting, and using it as the basis for both a block of Magic cards and a D&D setting book would probably work pretty well. That way, you could have a setting that had distinctly D&D creatures like Dragonborn and Eldarin alongside distinctly Magic creatures like Vedalkyn and Leonin.

The interesting part of all of this is that it lets you mix D&D stuff with the Magic color wheel, which is always a fun thought experiment for me.


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## El Mahdi (Apr 5, 2009)

Asmor said:


> Pray tell, what specific objections do you have to a setting based on any of the Magic: The Gathering planes? Assuming your revulsion is anything other than a kneejerk reaction.




Why not just assume it was a joke?

I'm pretty sure that Knightfall, Silverblade, Krensky and I were all just joking. I don't think any of us have anything against Magic: The Gathering. I can _guarantee_ I was only joking, and I feel safe in vouching for Knightfall, Silverblade, and Krensky (however, not for anyone else). Personally, whether an actual _"World"_ or not, if WoTC were to develop a campaign setting from the MtG card game, I'd be interested in it. I'd be interested whether it was with 4E mechanics, new independent mechanics (very doubtful), or just a fluff only treatment.

I apologize for my attempts at humor. I had no intention of providing tinder for any game or edition wars. Any such introduction of tinder was purely inadvertant. Personally, I feel it's a damn shame that it's getting harder to joke here anymore without someone taking it too far or taking it the wrong way (whether purposeful or not). (And I'm 100% *NOT* talking about or commenting on anything Piratecat said.)

I don't play 4E, but I don't have anything against it other than it's just not my cup of tea. But, that doesn't mean I'm not interested in updated campaign settings, whether 4E or not. I picked up the updated Forgotten Realms books, even though they are 4E, because I'm interested in the campaign world. I've got a DDI sub almost exclusively for adventures and campaign setting goodies. I'd pick up the majority of the campaign settings listed in the poll, if updated, even though they'll be 4E. I'm just a bit of a setting slut - fan - that way.


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## Nymrohd (Apr 5, 2009)

The more I think about it to be honest, the more I see MtG as a treasure trove for 4E, not so much for settings but mechanics. The power system is universal among classes and thus it is harder to differentiate the crunch between different classes of the same role. WotC is doing a decent job at it, though it could be better with some classes, especially in PHB1, but translating some of the MtG mechanics to power mechanics would be interesting and allow for even more variety in gameplay.


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