# Advice:  How to get Charisma bonus to Saves



## Artoomis (Jul 6, 2007)

I am looking for ways for my now-15th level Bard to get his Charisma bonus to saving throws.  He has taken the Force of Personality feat (Charisma bonus to Willpower saves) already.

Rules:  All 3.5 WotC source books are allowed.   Taking another class at level 17 is a possibility, though not preferred.

Alternatively, any cool suggestions for how to leverage a very high Charisma would be welcome.  At next kevel (16) he'll have a +10 Charisma bonus.

Current weaknesses:

1.  Not very high Fort saves.
2.  No Spell Resistance.
3.  Low Armor Class

Anything Charisma-based that would help counter any of those would be very cool.  I don't know of any way to apply Charisma bonus to AC or SR, but that either of those aid survivability a great deal.

Thanks for your ideas!


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## szilard (Jul 6, 2007)

Look at the Marshall class: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b

It should do what you want... and for your friends, too!

-Stuart


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## Heckler (Jul 6, 2007)

_Ruin Delver's Fortune._   Bard 4 out of the Spell Compendium.


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## blargney the second (Jul 6, 2007)

There's the CG paladin of freedom in UA that'll give you divine grace.


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## smootrk (Jul 6, 2007)

Seconding the option of taking Paladin (or appropriate variant) to get Divine Grace.  Charisma bonus to All Saves is awesome.


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## Nifft (Jul 6, 2007)

How do we know Paladin (of Freedom) is an appropriate class? What about the Blackguard option?

For Charisma to AC, you'd want Swordsage + Sorcerer + Ascetic Mage. 

Cheers, -- N


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## Erywin (Jul 6, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> For Charisma to AC, you'd want Swordsage + Sorcerer + Ascetic Mage.
> 
> Cheers, -- N





Actually that won't work, Ascetic Mage actually calls out the Monks bonus to AC,  saying that if you have levels in sorcerer and monk, those levels stack for determining your AC bouns.  And unfortunately the Swordsage AC bonus doesn't reference the Monk ability   I wish they would work together cause I wanted to make a swordsage/battle sorcerer but just couldn't make it work 

Cheers,
E


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## Nifft (Jul 6, 2007)

Erywin said:
			
		

> Actually that won't work, Ascetic Mage actually calls out the Monks bonus to AC,  saying that if you have levels in sorcerer and monk, those levels stack for determining your AC bouns.  And unfortunately the Swordsage AC bonus doesn't reference the Monk ability   I wish they would work together cause I wanted to make a swordsage/battle sorcerer but just couldn't make it work



 I read those two sentences as separate.

"If you have levels in sorcerer and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your AC bonus." (example, and then: ) "If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a[sic] unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC."

Note how the first sentence requires monk levels, while the second merely uses monk as an example.

Swordsage 2 / Sorcerer 4 would NOT gain a special Monk bonus to AC, but he would add his Charisma to AC, which is better. 

Cheers, -- N


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## backbeat (Jul 7, 2007)

Here's a far out thought:  Hexblade.  2 levels gets you a free action curse for -2 to everything, and an ability to add CHA to all saves vs spells and spell-like abilities.  The downside is that even at +10 CHA your curse will be like DC 21 so it probably won't do much unless you take an ability focus feat.  

I"m having loads of fun with a high CHA fighter - Knight/Hexblade going for Cyran Avenger.  If you don't mind taking track, Cyran Avenger (from Eberon 5 Nations is great for Bards too).


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## saucercrab (Jul 7, 2007)

From the Wizards boards: X Stat to Y Bonus.


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## Erywin (Jul 7, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> I read those two sentences as separate.
> 
> "If you have levels in sorcerer and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your AC bonus." (example, and then: ) "If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a[sic] unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC."
> 
> ...




Hmm didn't think to look at it that way   Makes one of my builds alot more viable.  Thanks Nifft 

Cheers,
E


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## griff_goodbeard (Jul 7, 2007)

Sounds Like Arcane Duelist is right up your alley.


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## Diirk (Jul 7, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> How do we know Paladin (of Freedom) is an appropriate class? What about the Blackguard option?
> 
> For Charisma to AC, you'd want Swordsage + Sorcerer + Ascetic Mage.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Why sorcerer ? He's a 15th level bard, I'm pretty sure he can already spontaneously cast 2nd level spells. All he needs is the normal wis to AC (monk, sword sage etc) and the improved unarmed strike for the feat prereq.


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## Nifft (Jul 7, 2007)

Diirk said:
			
		

> Why sorcerer ? He's a 15th level bard, I'm pretty sure he can already spontaneously cast 2nd level spells. All he needs is the normal wis to AC (monk, sword sage etc) and the improved unarmed strike for the feat prereq.




Right, makes sense. 

Cheers, -- N


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## questbreaker (Jul 7, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> How do we know Paladin (of Freedom) is an appropriate class? What about the Blackguard option?
> 
> For Charisma to AC, you'd want Swordsage + Sorcerer + Ascetic Mage.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




plus swordsage gets WIS to AC as well. the monk gets WIS added to the DEX mod for purposes of determining AC. so you get double your WIS added to AC, unless this is forbidden...


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## Darklone (Jul 7, 2007)

I don't think a swordsage monk would get WIS twice to AC.


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## Erywin (Jul 7, 2007)

Yeah its been stated before that a monk only gets Wis to AC when unarmored and a Swordsage only gets it when wearing Light armor.  Unfortunately I don't see a way of making that work.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 7, 2007)

Another call out for Ruin Delver's fortune, such a great spell.


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## Artoomis (Jul 8, 2007)

Lots of good advice.  

Ruin Delver's Fortune looks good - pretty short duration, but very valuable as an Immediate Action.

I think I may take that at 16th level (as a trade from another spell).  Tough choices - especially as Improved Mirror Image is out there, too, to potentially take up another valuable 4th level slot.


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## Shayuri (Jul 8, 2007)

Actually, a better match for a bard (one that doesn't require lawful alignment) might be Ninja. It works with Ascetic Mage too.


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## Artoomis (Jul 8, 2007)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Actually, a better match for a bard (one that doesn't require lawful alignment) might be Ninja. It works with Ascetic Mage too.




Ninja does not get Improved Unarmed Attack, a prerequisite for Ascetic mage.  

I looked it up as I thought that had some promise for me.


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