# Is it ok to hate cats and still be a gamer?



## Emirikol (Mar 25, 2007)

Are gamers more likely to own a cat (or cats) than non-gamers?  It seems like every gamer I know owns 2-10 of those little varmints.  Even here on this board, there are a large number of people who have cats on their avatars.

Needless to say, there aren't a lot of dog-correlations here in the same fashion.

Any theories?

jh
dog-person


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## S'mon (Mar 25, 2007)

Eight ball says "No".


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## Emirikol (Mar 25, 2007)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Eight ball says "No".




Dude, your avatar is a CAT-IN-A-DRYER!  

jh


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## jaerdaph (Mar 25, 2007)

I prefer dogs, but I don't hate cats. I am allergic to cats though.


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## Nifft (Mar 25, 2007)

No cats here.

They may be cute avatars, but I'm allergic to the real thing.
Also: if I want something needy and whiny that lives on my lap, I'll date sophomores again.

Cheers, -- N


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## Jdvn1 (Mar 25, 2007)

No cats, but one of my players has one two.


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## eyebeams (Mar 25, 2007)

We have two cats, but one of my regulars hates cats. If he's playing, we go somewhere else.


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## Shades of Green (Mar 25, 2007)

Both me and my girlfriend are gamers and both of us like cats...


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## Jack of Shadows (Mar 25, 2007)

Sorry,

Cat lover here. I just have something about having a pet that's smarter than I am. 

Jack.

P.S. Yes, yes I left the door open on that one. Go on, get it out of your system.


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## Shemeska (Mar 25, 2007)

One of my roommates has a cat, and the cat seems to enjoy falling asleep on my bookshelves, or on top of my Mortal Kombat machine. I bark at her routinely, and she just gets this wierded out look and then rubs against my feet, which of course tends to get her what she wants.

Rakshasas would be so much more successful taking over the Lawful planes if they took that route.


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## James McMurray (Mar 25, 2007)

We've got one cat that's ours and two strays that like to sleep in our garage. Two other guys in our group also has cats. The other three don't though.

If I count them as proprtion of gamers with significant others, then all of the attached gamers in my group have cats. None of the unattached ones do. Maybe it's just that the women gamers are attracted to are the ones that like cats?


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## Arashi Ravenblade (Mar 25, 2007)

Three cats for me, though one is my sisters.


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## dogoftheunderworld (Mar 25, 2007)

I think you mean to ask 'Do any cats out there keep gamers?'

Dogs have owners, cats have staff.*

(I am a dog person myself.  I like kittens, but cats... not so much.)


* stolen from the internet (probaly here somewhere)


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## Ry (Mar 25, 2007)

I have to tell you.  _I hate cats._


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## Mean Eyed Cat (Mar 25, 2007)

In spite of my user name, I'm not a big cat fan.  I much prefer dogs.


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## Vigwyn the Unruly (Mar 25, 2007)

Jack of Shadows said:
			
		

> Cat lover here. I just have something about having a pet that's smarter than I am.



If you love cats, then yes, they probably _are_ smarter than you.


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## theredrobedwizard (Mar 25, 2007)

I say to you, in the girliest voice I can muster... "KITTENS!!!!!! YAY!!!!"

I'm a terrible guy; I love my cat *way* too much.  There have been times I've seriously considered picking up every Free Kitten I could find, in hopes of them roaming my apartment in a large, tumbling ball of cuteness.

Then I realized that a 1 bedroom apartment barely has enough room for me, my girlfriend, and my current cat.

Oh well.

-TRRW


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## Mark CMG (Mar 25, 2007)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> Are gamers more likely to own a cat





No.  No one owns a cat.


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## AFGNCAAP (Mar 25, 2007)

I have 8 cats.

I wouldn't have 8 cats if the people who say "Oh, they're so cute!  I want to take them home." would've actually _taken_ one of the critters when I originally found it and was trying to find a home for it.

Always been a cat person.  Have both cats and dogs, though.


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## +5 Keyboard! (Mar 25, 2007)

I do not care for cats, though I wouldn't say that my feelings are strong enough to say that I hate them. They're all right if someone else owns them. My in-laws have a pretty cool cat that I like, but when it comes to having animal companions (note: not "pets"), I'll take a big 'ol dog every time. They may not be as smart as cats according to some opinions, but they're a helluva a lot more loyal and useful. When's the last time you heard of a cat meowing to scare a burglar away?  Or running down a criminal? Or sniffing for drugs? Or alerting you that someone is trying to steal a visiting friend's car? (Yes, this actually happened at my place and I've come to trust my dog's barks when they have a certain sound. When I went out to see what he was barking at, it scared the would-be thief away.)

Oh, and I have a gaming group of 6 players. None of them have cats. And of the half dozen players I've gamed with that are no longer in my group over the past 3 years, only one of them had a cat.


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## Blood Jester (Mar 25, 2007)

I have never understood the mentality (that I have almost only seen coming from self-professed "dog people") that you either like cats _or_ dogs.

But not both.

I love them both, I am an "animal person" not a dog or a cat person.
I currently only have cats because they are lower maintenance, and I am very busy, but I have had both, and likely will again.


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## James McMurray (Mar 25, 2007)

Blood Jester said:
			
		

> I have never understood the mentality (that I have almost only seen coming from self-professed "dog people") that you either like cats _or_ dogs.
> 
> But not both.
> 
> ...




Ditto.


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## +5 Keyboard! (Mar 25, 2007)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> Any theories?




Well, I think this kind of sums it up:



			
				Blood Jester said:
			
		

> {snip} I currently only have cats because they are lower maintenance, and I am very busy. {snip}





Dogs tend to be more of a responsibility like having children. Cats are pretty independent and are more like having a roommate. So, it depends on what you want out of your relationship with your animal companion. YMMV, as they say.


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## was (Mar 25, 2007)

I've only met a couple of gamers who had cats


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## Gothmog (Mar 25, 2007)

Yep, I loathe cats and I'm allergic to them.  As many people have pointed out, they are selfish, evil little bastards who can maul a commoner.   

Seriously, I think there is a lot to gamers having cats because they are low maintainence, and its shows in a lot of the gamers I have known who are cat fanatics who shirk many responsibilities.  The cat gamers I have known houses reek of kitty litter and cat pee, and they don't tend to be the most hygenic people.  Cats also step through their own wastes and then get on tables, furniture, and eating surfaces, and their owners think its cute- its just nasty and a health hazard.  Cats licking their paws doesn't clean them of the bacteria- it simply transfers it to their mouths so cat bites often become infected, and their saliva isn't as strongly antibacterial as many other carnivores.  Cat owners always try to say cats are so intelligent and independent, while in fact the opposite is true- cats are not social creatures and don't understand a group or family bond.  They tend to panic easily, have fear aggression problems where they injure their owners or other people, and I've seen several cats die of panic and shock when their owners have moved into a new home.  Numerous ethological studies have shown dogs are MUCH smarter than cats with the capability for complex social interaction and problem solving (as a whole- there are some really stupid dogs out there too).  

So yes, hating cats and being a gamer is perfectly acceptable.


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## ShadowDenizen (Mar 25, 2007)

Add me to the "Cat-hate" crowd. (Being allergic certainly factors in to that, though!!)


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## Fishbone (Mar 25, 2007)

2 cats, two dogs. And the only reason I like the cats is because they behave like dogs. They answer to their names, do tricks, run up to me when I come home from school, lick my face, etc.
I dislike all other dogs and cats that aren't MY dogs and cats.


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## Umbran (Mar 25, 2007)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> Cat owners always try to say cats are so intelligent and independent, while in fact the opposite is true- cats are not social creatures and don't understand a group or family bond.




Gothmog, I understand you don't like cats, and you're free to not like them.  However, on this matter you are factually, scientifically incorrect.  You are holding to a view of felines that has, in the past decade or two, been found to be wrong.

When left to their own devices, housecats live in colonies, and are social.  We have bred them to be social, and it is not unnatural to the feline family (lions are quite social).  They are not dogs, and have their own behaviors,  but they are social nontheless.



> They tend to panic easily, have fear aggression problems where they injure their owners or other people




Any animal can have fear and aggression problems.  It is no more common with cats than with dogs.  If you don't handle either probperly, you'll get hurt.



> Numerous ethological studies have shown dogs are MUCH smarter than cats with the capability for complex social interaction and problem solving (as a whole- there are some really stupid dogs out there too).




Cites, please.  Because my veterinarian wife, who makes her living caring for both cats and dogs, and has studied their behavior and mentation professionally, has not seen such.  Given that there is no well-accepted definition of "smart" to begin with, I doubt you'll find a study that can provide an overall quantitative comparison of intelligence between species.

In any event, having social abilty is not a measure of intelligence.  Otherwise, ants, bees, and sheep (all of whom have coimples social interactions) would be considered geniuses.



> So yes, hating cats and being a gamer is perfectly acceptable.




It is fine to dislike a type of animal.  "Hate" is a pretty strong word, but well enough, I suppose.  You don't need to justify it.


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## Tauric (Mar 25, 2007)

wow, I think someone was bitten as a child.

Count me as an animal person.  Right now I have a dog.  The only reason I don't have a cat now it that I'm rather fond of breathing and seeing, and if I touch a cat my eyes get red and itchy and I sneeze gale force winds.

But I'm stupid.  When I go to my wife's cousin's house (they have three cats), I put on gloves and a hospital mask to play with the kitties.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 25, 2007)

Eh. I'm neutral. I love dogs, but I don't really hate cats.

What I do hate is the tenancy of some cat owners to get super-arrogant about cats being the bestest of all. Like they need to _defend_ their choice of fuzzball. I've never met a dog owner who has been that adamant that every other animal is half-retarded next to dogs, but cat owners...there's such a mythos around the beasts for some reason.

Which is why I love to trot out dog intelligence studies every once in a while. I could cite octopuses or pigeons, too. I mean, cats can use a toilet, but they can't help a blind man navigate a busy city street, despite all their magic powers. 

I've got some big affection for cats (I've lived with a few in my life), but I have an intense dislike for probably about 50% of the cat owners I've met who seem to take some sort of self-validation in their critter. And despite knowing pretty much just as many dog owners, I don't know of anyone who is that invested in their dog's abilities as a factor of their own ego.


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## Mercule (Mar 25, 2007)

There is something inherently flawed in anyone who doesn't like cats.

I, for one, have been serving our feline overlords for three decades.


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## Vegepygmy (Mar 25, 2007)

I think it's extremely weird to hate cats (or dogs) in general.  A _particular_ cat or dog, sure...but a general dislike of them all?  Kooky.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 25, 2007)

> There is something inherently flawed in anyone who doesn't like cats.
> 
> I, for one, have been serving our feline overlords for three decades.




Case. In. Point.


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## Keldryn (Mar 25, 2007)

I'm an animal person in general.  Currently, we have three cats and one dog.  My wife already head the three cats when I met her and I was temporarily living at my parents' place again with my two cats.  I had to leave my cats with my parents when I moved with her because five cats is a little crazy.

We also had two rats for a while (the first one was rescued), but they have pretty short lifespans.


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## Blind Azathoth (Mar 25, 2007)

Though I don't dislike cats, I am allergic to them and just prefer dogs in general. Among the two groups I play with, six of eleven players own dogs; only one has a cat. And the girl with the cat is the one who never shows up...


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## kolikeos (Mar 25, 2007)

cats are evil... but they have a HUGE advantege over dogs: they don't poo on the lawn or the sidewalk!


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## Emirikol (Mar 25, 2007)

kolikeos said:
			
		

> cats are evil... but they have a HUGE advantege over dogs: they don't poo on the lawn or the sidewalk!




There's an old saying, "Do you like boxes of **** in your house?  Get a cat."  

I don't hate cats, but my father and about anyone from Hawaii can see and not appreciate the damage they do when people let them out  at night...

jh


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## Wraith-Hunter (Mar 25, 2007)

Hate cats with a passion. They are fine for single chicks.


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## Solarious (Mar 25, 2007)

I like cats, sorta don't like dogs as much. A lot of dogs I encounter either growl/bark at me, or try to lick me, both of which I don't agree with. I get along with cats better, as I leave them alone, they leave me alone, and we're both happy.


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## LightPhoenix (Mar 25, 2007)

+5 Keyboard! said:
			
		

> Dogs tend to be more of a responsibility like having children. Cats are pretty independent and are more like having a roommate. So, it depends on what you want out of your relationship with your animal companion. YMMV, as they say.




So, which animal is most like having a significant other?  That's the one I need to get...


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## Jondor_Battlehammer (Mar 25, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> There is something inherently flawed in anyone who doesn't like cats.
> 
> I, for one, have been serving our feline overlords for three decades.




Well said, on both counts.  

I must also contest anyone whom suggests dogs are smarter than cats. My sister has a dog that is quite smart. In trying to play fetch with him for the first time, he wouldn't bring the stick back to me, but run around trying to get me to chase him. So I grabbed another stick and alternated between them, as he would drop one to chase the other. This worked two, maybe three times until he just kept both sticks in his mouth.

Smart dog.

The same dog routinely gets mauled by a cat 1/10th his size. And is scared of the cat. The same cat that will place him self just inside the dog door, blocking him from coming in from the wet and cold. Cats are smart, and possible evil, or at least CN.


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## Vigwyn the Unruly (Mar 25, 2007)

Keldryn said:
			
		

> We also had two rats for a while (the first one was rescued)



From what?


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## S'mon (Mar 25, 2007)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> Dude, your avatar is a CAT-IN-A-DRYER!
> 
> jh




Because I worry that one of my foolish cats will get in the dryer.


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## Tclynch (Mar 25, 2007)

It's ok to be a gamer and not like Cats. It's just no NATURAL, though.....


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## kolikeos (Mar 25, 2007)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> There's an old saying, "Do you like boxes of **** in your house?  Get a cat."
> 
> I don't hate cats, but my father and about anyone from Hawaii can see and not appreciate the damage they do when people let them out  at night...
> 
> jh



Stray cats will turn over your trashcans (If that is what you ment by damage). A housecat won't.


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## ssampier (Mar 25, 2007)

I do not own any animal right now. If I did, I like a dog.

[stereotype]
I don't mind people owning a _cat_, it's just the people I know that own several _cats_ their homes stink to high-heaven. Thus, the more cats the smelliness of the home increases exponentially [I'd say _n_ to the 50th power, 1 not smelly (average)].
[/stereotype]


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## S'mon (Mar 25, 2007)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> There's an old saying, "Do you like boxes of **** in your house?  Get a cat."




We have a cat flap, a back yard, and cats who bury their poo like they're supposed to.  If you keep cats inside with no out door access you'll have boxes of poo, but unless you live in flat/apartment there's no need for this; and cats seem a lot happier when they have outside access.


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## Pierson_Lowgal (Mar 25, 2007)

I hate cats.  They are worthless self-loving creatures.
Dog is man's best friend!

* Assistance dogs which help the seeing and hearing-impaired. Others are trained to help those with epilepsy and psychiatric disorders, by detecting the onset of the condition so they can seek help. The typical assistance dog is a sociable breed such as a Labrador Retriever.
    * The detection dog, which is a dog trained to and works at using its senses (almost always the sense of smell) to detect substances such as explosives or illegal drugs.
    * Guard dogs trained to protect property. These are commonly Doberman Pinschers, German Shepherds and Rottweilers or mixes of these breeds.
    * Herding dogs trained to protect livestock in the range against predators. Sheepdogs are a common breed.
    * Hunting dogs that search for and retrieve game. Pointers and retrievers are typical hunting breeds.
    * Police dogs, typically German Shepherds, are trained to assist law enforcement officers.
    * Rescue dogs that search for missing humans. The archetypal breeds are the St. Bernard and the Bloodhound, although any dog with a good sense of smell can be trained to perform this task.
    * Therapy dogs, with friendly and gentle temperaments, trained to provide comfort and affection to hospitalized and institutionalized patients.
    * The war dog, used by the military to detect mines and enemy soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_dog


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## Nuclear Platypus (Mar 25, 2007)

Don't like cats but won't go out of my way to show it.


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## +5 Keyboard! (Mar 26, 2007)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> My roommates have cats. I've nothing against pets but I hate when one of the blasted things jumps on top of the table (dining or coffee) and they think its cute. Countertops are even worse.
> 
> As mentioned earlier, dogs require responsibility while cats don't require much more effort than a pet rock or at least a plant. Their cats seem to be dumber than a box of frozen peas but it could just be curiousity i.e. they've snooped around the dryer, fridge and yes, even the oven.
> 
> ...




I don't know too many playtpuses (or is that platypi?) except for one by the name of Chris Wissel. Is that you Chris? If so, I can see why no one has been able to get hold of you. You've gone all atomic on us .

Of course, I could have the wrong playtpus, altogether. In that case, sorry and... carry on.


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## Jubilee (Mar 26, 2007)

I have to agree with the "pet person" label.  I've had both dogs and cats growing up and find them both to be wonderful companions.  Right now my husband and I have two kittens and we've thought about a dog now and then but they are MUCH more responsibility and work, and we're not up to making the commitment.

Smelly cat boxes are usually a sign of poor human maintenance/hygene, not cat hygene.  They can't pick up the scoop and clean it up themselves, afterall!  

With regards to cats on the counters and tables - although I discourage my kittens from doing this - I personally eat from a plate rather than directly from the table, and I use cutting boards or other cleaned, appropriate surfaces rather than the counter itself when preparing food, so I don't really see where the problem is (except perhaps for lingering fur, which is easily wiped away).  I've found as long as I don't leave anything that looks tastey or fun to play with lying on the table, the kittens don't feel the need to get up there.

I have to agree with whoever said people who outright hate an animal without discrimination (cat or dog) is morally suspect.   Being allergic to cats is, according to my mother, also a sign of being morally degenerate (but that might have been that she didn't like that boyfriend..).


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## MacMathan (Mar 26, 2007)

No Cats here, Allergic.

Dogs, Horses, Reptiles- Yes

Really Big Dogs actually (see sig)

As far as my group goes 2-cat owners, 1 dog owner, 1 child owner and 2 with no pets.


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## Blood Jester (Mar 26, 2007)

There are so many things here I could debate, but the one that I can't take any longer...

Several people have mentioned "Guide dogs" and the lack of a feline equivalent.

Do you see any "Guide Chihuahua's" out there?  No.
Why?  Because they lack the mass to be able to influence the direction of an adult human who can only be guided by "feel" or inertia.

That is why no one has botherd to train "Guide cats".

And you can train most animals to do way more than you think.


 + + + +

P.S. - By low maintenance, I meant I don't have to walk a cat in the freezing rain at two specific times of the day, or end up with poop and pee all over the house.  *Not* that my house smells because I don't keep it clean.

I have had many people think I gave away my cats because _there is no smell_ in my house, and they have only met people who don't know how to maintain their homes, so assume there must be a smell if you own cats.


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## darkseraphim (Mar 26, 2007)

Hmm.  Personally I have an immediate disinclination toward people who threaten violence against innocents, animal or otherwise.  I don't understand people who find such things funny, impressive or clever.  Next to stupidity, it's one of my least favorite human attributes.

I've had pets every day of my life.  For the first 20 years, that meant dogs, because my mom was allergic to cats.  After I moved out on my own I had cats, because I'd never had the opportunity to own them.  I love them both.

The intelligence debate is rather amusing to me, since anyone who has owned and related to both types of animals knows that there is a considerable range to individual animal intelligence - same with people.  I've had dumb dogs, smart dogs, dumb cats and smart cats.  Stating "Dogs are smarter than cats, but I only have in-depth experience with dogs" is just as facetious as it sounds.

It's fine to not like one or the other.  But to hate an entire species based on personal prejudice is rather narrow-minded and I regard it as such.

Just saying.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Mar 26, 2007)

darkseraphim said:
			
		

> The intelligence debate is rather amusing to me, since anyone who has owned and related to both types of animals knows that there is a considerable range to individual animal intelligence - same with people.  I've had dumb dogs, smart dogs, dumb cats and smart cats.  Stating "Dogs are smarter than cats, but I only have in-depth experience with dogs" is just as facetious as it sounds.




QFT

I've seen smart and truly stupid cats and dogs in equal number.  Though I will say stupid cats tend to be more annoying in my experience and stupid dogs usually do things that are _entertainingly_ stupid, again all IME.

For example a rather old black lab of my uncle's that liked to lick the electric fence.


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## Torm (Mar 26, 2007)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> just a nice refreshing bowl of antifreeze



This is, in fact, how a neighbor managed to kill my son's cat - an event that caused him a great deal of pain, and me no small amount as I quite liked the cat also, and took him quite a while to get over. (If he has, entirely.)

The rest of what _would_ be this comment will be omitted out of respect for Eric's Grandma. I will instead leave you with the neutrally stated wish that you get everything in life that you deserve.


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## Alzrius (Mar 26, 2007)

To answer the question that was posted at the beginning of this thread: No, it is not okay to hate cats and still be a gamer.

In fact, it's not okay to hate cats at all.


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## dagger (Mar 26, 2007)

Blood Jester said:
			
		

> I have never understood the mentality (that I have almost only seen coming from self-professed "dog people") that you either like cats _or_ dogs.
> 
> But not both.
> 
> ...





I dislike both. 

Nah, I'm just allergic to dogs and my wife is allergic to cats.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 26, 2007)

> Do you see any "Guide Chihuahua's" out there? No.
> Why? Because they lack the mass to be able to influence the direction of an adult human who can only be guided by "feel" or inertia.




Look, you can say with veracity that "intelligence in animals" is troublesome to attempt to define, at best. There's nothing that says being able to count or cognate or be trained is true "intelligence" (whatever that is, across species). 

But what I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, is that dogs (all the breeds of _canis familiaris_ taken in sum) have been a more useful species, as a whole, than cats (all breeds of _felus catus_ taken in sum).


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## Brimshack (Mar 26, 2007)

Well...

Presenting, Fido and Junkmail







Fido and Jubnkmail are my most enthusiastic players, at leastthey would be if we would let them up on the table with the dice and the minis.

(...note the Reaper Mini)


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## Big Bucket (Mar 26, 2007)

I've had both a cat (current pet) and a dog (childhood pet). Generally I prefer cats because of their independence (smarts?).

My cat doesn't go on counters or tables, and his litter box is cleaned regularly. Any odors in my house most likely belong to me.

I'm not a big fan of the constant attention dogs seem to need, at least since becoming an adult. Or the drool.

But that's just me.

Also, are allergies to pets and cats in particular that common? I didn't expect to see so many responses with reference to allergies. In my immediate circle of friends, roughly twenty, only one is allergic to cats and it is bearable for him. My cat doesn't bother him too much and he moved in with his girlfriend and her two cats.


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## Mouseferatu (Mar 26, 2007)

Torm said:
			
		

> This is, in fact, how a neighbor managed to kill my son's cat - an event that caused him a great deal of pain, and me no small amount as I quite liked the cat also, and took him quite a while to get over. (If he has, entirely.)
> 
> The rest of what _would_ be this comment will be omitted out of respect for Eric's Grandma. I will instead leave you with the neutrally stated wish that you get everything in life that you deserve.




I, too, have had a cat poisoned by a neighbor (though it was not with antifreeze).

Platypus, I will grant you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you _thought_ you were being funny, as opposed to expressing even a semi-serious intent.


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## Draxo (Mar 26, 2007)

I can reply to this thread with the following.

Cats are the bane of the DM screen(timbeeer..!).  

They have destroyed more monsters and players (miniatures) than a hundred tarrasques. (they have pounce attack) 

They roll more 20's than the entire group (by batting around our dice).


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## Thunderfoot (Mar 26, 2007)

Cats are owned by three out of the four families that play in my group....
One familiy owns a dog... I hate dogs.

My feline queen says that they are icky.  Yes mistress, I'll pet your head now.  All hail cats, overrulers of the universe since 5000 BC.


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## Felix (Mar 26, 2007)

"the Cat" does most certainly _not_ follow my screen-name.

And Dogs are better than Cats because you can wrassle with dogs*.

But like the old man says, "Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you; give me a pig: they look you square in the eye."

*Any Dog you cannot wrassle with is not considered a dog, nor is any dog capable of being carried in a woman's handbag; the amount of droolslobber produced and distributed by a dog is directly proportional to its dog-quotient, though the D-Q is also correlated to skill at butt-sniffing and leg-humping.


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## Nuclear Platypus (Mar 26, 2007)

Nope, not the same Platypus. I remember an Atomic one from waaaay back but that wasn't me.


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## cattoy (Mar 26, 2007)

I was very allergic to cats as a child. I overcame this through repeated exposure to other people`s cats. (never had any as a kid because my mom was\is allergic to them)

I don`t know why, but I just like cats. I don`t mind dogs, as long as they`re well trained ones.

I will certainly accept that there are some characteristics of cats that drive some people nuts. That won`t stop me from lavishing attention on any cat that will sit still for it.


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 26, 2007)

*Moderator/
I remember a thread in the past where a number of people had the sad and distressing experience of cats being killed by antifreeze, a pretty horrible experience all round.

As a result, out of respect for other peoples feelings, I would request that we don't even joke about it.

This isn't a rule, just a request to respect other peoples feelings about a sensitive issue.

Thanks*


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 26, 2007)

I've always loved this dog diary vs cat diary



EXCERPTS FROM A DOG'S DIARY

Day number 180

8:00 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
9:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
9:40 am - OH BOY! A WALK! MY FAVORITE!
10:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
11:30 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
12:00 noon - OH BOY! THE KIDS! MY FAVORITE!
1:00 pm OH BOY! THE GARDEN! MY FAVORITE!
4:00 pm - OH BOY! THE KIDS! MY FAVORITE!
5:00 PM - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
5:30 PM - OH BOY! MOM! MY FAVORITE!

Day number 181

8:00 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
9:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
9:40 am - OH BOY! A WALK! MY FAVORITE!
10:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
11:30 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
12:00 noon - OH BOY! THE KIDS! MY FAVORITE!
1:00 pm OH BOY! THE GARDEN! MY FAVORITE!
4:00 pm - OH BOY! THE KIDS! MY FAVORITE!
5:00 PM - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
5:30 PM - OH BOY! MOM! MY FAVORITE!

Day number 182

8:00 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
9:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
9:40 am - OH BOY! A WALK! MY FAVORITE!
10:30 am - OH BOY! A CAR RIDE! MY FAVORITE!
11:30 am - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
12:00 noon - OH BOY! THE KIDS! MY FAVORITE!
1:00 pm OH BOY! THE GARDEN! MY FAVORITE!
4:00 pm - OH BOY! THE KIDS! MY FAVORITE!
5:00 PM - OH BOY! DOG FOOD! MY FAVORITE!
5:30 PM - OH BOY! MOM! MY FAVORITE!


EXCERPTS FROM A CAT'S DIARY

DAY 752

My captors continue to taunt me with bizarre little dangling objects. They dine lavishly on fresh meat, while I am forced to eat dry cereal. The only thing that keeps me going is the hope of escape, and the mild satisfaction I get from ruining the occasional piece of furniture. Tomorrow I may eat another houseplant.

DAY 761

Today my attempt to kill my captors by weaving around their feet while they were walking almost succeeded, must try this at the top of the stairs. In an attempt to disgust and repulse these vile oppressors, I once again induced myself to vomit on their favorite chair...must try this on their bed.

DAY 765

Decapitated a mouse and brought them the headless body, in attempt to make them aware of what I am capable of, and to try to strike fear into their hearts. They only cooed and condescended about what a good little cat I was...Hmmm. Not working according to plan.

DAY 768

I am finally aware of how sadistic they are. For no good reason I was chosen for the water torture. This time however it included a burning foamy chemical called "shampoo." What sick minds could invent such a liquid?! My only consolation is the piece of thumb still stuck between my teeth.

DAY 771

There was some sort of gathering of their accomplices. I was placed in solitary throughout the event. However, I could hear the noise and smell the foul odor of the glass tubes they call "beer.." More importantly I overheard that my confinement was due to MY power of "allergies." Must learn what this is and how to use it to my advantage.

DAY 774

I am convinced the other captives are flunkies and maybe snitches. The dog is routinely released and seems more than happy to return. He is obviously a half-wit. The bird on the other hand has got to be an informant, and speaks with them regularly. I am certain he reports my every move. Due to his current placement in the metal room his safety is assured.

But I can wait, it is only a matter of time...


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## robberbaron (Mar 26, 2007)

Cats are evil manipulative creatures, only interested in themselves and their evil schemes. Let's face it, Blofeld wasn't the head of Spectre, his cat was.
And I am fiercely allergic to them (we are talking eyeball blisters, here).

Don't actually hate them, just keep out of their way as I don't want to be drawn into their Neutral Evil games.


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## Gez (Mar 26, 2007)

As Alzrius said, it's not OK to hate cats _at all_.  

And one can like both cats and dogs. I do. I'll admit I prefer cats; but I still like dogs, as long as they're not aggressive.


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## mrswing (Mar 26, 2007)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> Are gamers more likely to own a cat (or cats) than non-gamers?  It seems like every gamer I know owns 2-10 of those little varmints.  Even here on this board, there are a large number of people who have cats on their avatars.
> 
> Needless to say, there aren't a lot of dog-correlations here in the same fashion.
> 
> ...




No. Hate cats - not a gamer.


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## robberbaron (Mar 26, 2007)

I find it interesting that people who like cats think people who don't like cats are deviants or at least mentally and/or emotionally deficient.

Personally, I don't have a problem with most animals (besides the aforementioned eyeball blisters); it's the ignorant/lazy owners who annoy me and who let the conscientious owners down.


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## Mighty Halfling (Mar 26, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> When left to their own devices, housecats live in colonies, and are social.  We have bred them to be social, and it is not unnatural to the feline family (lions are quite social).  They are not dogs, and have their own behaviors,  but they are social nontheless.




I think this demands the creation of a Cat Swarm!


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## Mighty Halfling (Mar 26, 2007)

Cats are wise and dogs are gullible. 
Dogs are clearly smarter, but they just get so excited about everything that they look stupid. Cats are smart enough _not_ get excited about things, but when they do, they look stupid. ... (_string! Must ... stop ... string from ... wiggling!_).
Cats assume that everyone likes them, so they have nothing to prove. Dogs hope that everyone likes them, and need it to be proved again and again.


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## SWBaxter (Mar 26, 2007)

Cats are OK, I personally prefer dogs. Threads like this one tend to mystify me - I can't fathom the near-religious fervor some folks have towards a preference for one type of pet or the other - but then again I like both cats and dogs in general better than 90% or more of the humans I encounter from day to day, so probably there's some social dynamic going on that I simply don't grasp.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Mar 26, 2007)

I wouldn't say I hate cats, but I wouldn't weep if they disappeared from the face of the earth for some reason.


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## Fishbone (Mar 26, 2007)

I like dogs a little better because at least they contribute.
I got a golden retriever and walking that thing for an hour a day for the past year is responsible for 6 pants sizes coming off. That seems pretty common. No cat that I've ever known has been responsible for 40 pounds of weight loss in half a year.
She also kills pretty much any varmint that gets in the yard.
Cats don't mouse anymore, they just sit in the house. The only good thing they do is sit still long enough to be mocked with Internet pictures.


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## mhensley (Mar 26, 2007)

I'm definitely a cat person and can't imagine living without one.  I like dogs too, but not enough to want to take care of one.

Cat

The fat cat on the mat
may seem to dream
of nice mice that suffice
for him, or cream;
but he free, maybe,
walks in thought
unbowed, proud, where loud
roared and fought
his kin, lean and slim,
or deep in den
in the East feasted on beasts
and tender men.
The giant lion with iron
claw in paw,
and huge ruthless tooth
in gory jaw;
the pard dark-starred,
fleet upon feet,
that oft soft from aloft
leaps upon his meat
where woods loom in gloom --
far now they be,
fierce and free,
and tamed is he;
but fat cat on the mat
kept as a pet
he does not forget.

JRR Tolkien


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## Dragon Snack (Mar 26, 2007)

Sunday group: 3 dog owners (including myself), one cat wrangler (dumped on him by his GF)

Friday group: 1 dog owner (myself), 2 cat owners (a married couple, so it should only count as one)

I take every animal on it's own merits, I guess you could say I'm an animal person.  When I had roommates who had cats, they seemed to like me more than their owner (with only one exception).

I actually do miss one of my former roommates cats, Sega! (the exclamation point is part of his name).  Despite being the meanest nastiest kitten around when he first got him, he did grow up to be very cool.  Very dog like.

Lakota (my dog), on the other hand, has some cat like tendencies...









			
				SWBaxter said:
			
		

> ...then again I like both cats and dogs in general better than 90% or more of the humans I encounter from day to day...



Agreed.


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## francisca (Mar 26, 2007)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> Are gamers more likely to own a cat (or cats) than non-gamers?  It seems like every gamer I know owns 2-10 of those little varmints.  Even here on this board, there are a large number of people who have cats on their avatars.
> 
> Needless to say, there aren't a lot of dog-correlations here in the same fashion.
> 
> ...



Nobody I game with owns a cat.  That's....uuuhhhh......16 people between various groups.  Not a cat owner among them.

Personally, I can't stand cats.  They love me, however.  Irony: It's not just for breakfast.


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## sckeener (Mar 26, 2007)

What is it about game stores in the Austin area though?  I've been to two game stores in Austin (I live in Houston) and both had cats wandering around the store.

Admittedly I like that touch as I'm a cat fan.  Excluding 1 year I lived in an apartment, I've had 2-9 cats through out my life...so about 34-35 years worth of cats.

I'm the cat magnet at games.  If I am at a game any where with a cat and as long as the cat isn't in hiding from the strangers, I'll probably have my lap full of pussy for a few hours during the game.

I've had a few dogs over the years as pets, but I just tolerate them.  They are too lawful for me, too loyal and too obedient in general.  

I prefer chaotics.  I prefer to know that my cat will do what ever it wants when I am not around to stop it....be that jumping on the counters or stealing toys that weren't toys.  Admittedly I try to discourage the behavior, but like training dogs you have to catch it before, during the act, or remove all possibility of it happening.


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## Aexalon (Mar 26, 2007)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> But what I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, is that dogs (all the breeds of _canis familiaris_ taken in sum) have been a more useful species, as a whole, than cats (all breeds of _felus catus_ taken in sum).



The relation between Dog and Man came about in a hunter-gatherer society (starting 12000 BCE and 7000 BCE, in numerous places, though some theories speak of relations between man and wolf up to 100.000y ago). Dog (by assisting in the hunt) reinforced Man's ability to function in this capacity, but did not assist man in conquering any new frontiers on the road to civilisation.

The relation between Cat and Man came about at the start of the latter's attempt at transitioning from a hunter-gatherer society to an agricultural society (mainly in Egypt, starting around 4000 BCE, though mummified cat remains from as long ago as 7500 BCE have been found on Cyprus). Cat assisted Man in overcoming an inherent efficiency threshold (by protecting food stores against rodents), directly contributing to Man's future success at civilisation.

In brief (if you'll excuse me a few shortcuts from agriculture to the development of written language, religion, science, rational though, and even the concept of "leisure" time), it is BECAUSE of Cat that Man can be a gamer in the first place.

So, it is not ok to hate Cat (gamer or not, and that's besides my personal conviction that it's not ok to hate at all). As for Dog being more useful today: they'd better be. They have a lot of catching-up to do.


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## Voadam (Mar 26, 2007)

aexalon said:
			
		

> In brief it is BECAUSE of Cat that Man can be a gamer in the first place.
> 
> So, it is not ok to hate Cat (gamer or not, and that's besides my personal conviction that it's not ok to hate at all).




Even assuming these premises this is a false conclusion. It is still OK to hate cats.


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## Henry (Mar 26, 2007)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> Are gamers more likely to own a cat (or cats) than non-gamers?  It seems like every gamer I know owns 2-10 of those little varmints.  Even here on this board, there are a large number of people who have cats on their avatars.
> 
> Needless to say, there aren't a lot of dog-correlations here in the same fashion.
> 
> ...




I personally own 8 dogs and 1 cat; of our gaming group, one owns 1 dog and like 4 cats, one owns a dog, another owns one dog, and the other two own no pets.

Kind of eclectic mix, all across the spectrum, but seems to favor dogs.


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## Ender_rpm (Mar 26, 2007)

I have 2 cats, and 1/2 of my players have cats as well. No dog owners, AFAIK. I prefer the emotional self assurance of the cats, even though I love dogs too. I just have a small apartment and my life is too busy to support a dog. I also raised my cats so I can wrassle with them, bathe them, and clip claws without being turned into hamburger. In turn, they sit and stand for treats, come when called, wait at the door for me when I get home, and keep mice away. In fact, I got the first one when my then girlfriend (now wife) saw a mouse in an old aprtment. We got a kitten, and never saw another one, though my neighbors complained so much the land lord finally sprung for an exterminator. Not liking cats is fine, though my group loves them (one even brings  a laser pointer to play with them). Where I draw the line is people voicing the wish to harm them, or any animal. If its not ok to do to dogs, its not ok to do to cats.


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## Mark Hope (Mar 26, 2007)

I like cats.  But I couldn't eat a whole one.


Actually, no, I probably could.  In fact, given some of the places that I've dined, I probably _have_.


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## Shadeydm (Mar 26, 2007)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> Numerous ethological studies have shown dogs are MUCH smarter than cats with the capability for complex social interaction and problem solving




Sorry I have to reject the notion that dogs are smarter than cats. I happen to own both and although very loyal, dogs are as dumb as dirt, so dumb in fact that dogs EAT FECES even thier own.


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## Ravellion (Mar 26, 2007)

I was a part time postman during my first years at college. Hence I'll take cats over dogs any time. Even the most vicious evil humongous cat will still run from a human saying "boo!". They might hiss at you and try to claw you (when *you* get too close to *them*), but they will flee when threatened. I have had some treatment from "loyal guard dogs" however that dog lovers should be happy that the Netherlands restricts hand guns. I was lucky that one time, a certain dog was too stupid to know the difference between my post bag and a genuine part of my anatomy, or I'd be disfigured because some people think it is nice for the dog to be running around on a nice summer's day.

The small ones, like yorkshire terriers, are so stupid that I once dragged one for 30 yards while it was attached to my trousers. I ignored it at first, but could have killed it by stepping on it. I actually stomped the ground hard right next to its head to scare it off, and still it growled and kept it's jaws around my trouserleg. 

Another time a dog growled but moved back as I simply walked towards him and the letterbox (I do not fear dogs), so I thought "finally, a smart dog". I deposited some letters in the letterbox, and turned around. Big mistake. This dog imediatly started running towards me. I immediatly turned to face the creature again, and it started backing off again (to about 6 metres/ 21 feet). Thinking I needed to prove my superiority I moved further toward it and started commanding "DOWN!" at the top of my voice. The dog got all submissive, and started making those sad sobs that dogs make. I kept looking it in the eye, and it must have known that I hated it. I moved back, looking over my shoulder to keep looking it in the eye. As soon as I was about 10 paces away from the yard of that house (and about 15 metres away from the dog), I turned my back... and the miserable creature started barking and growling and running towards me again. That sniveling, cowardly wretch followed me in such a fashion for about 400 metres (quarter of a mile), every time backing off and running toward me. Note though, that after about half that distance, I got so fed up, and so ticked off, I wished to harm that dog. Bad. I started kicking toward it. I had one of my long, thin straight "pen" keys in my fist and I was intending to stab the dog with it. But it stayed *just*... out... of... reach. I have been angry in my life, but always had the composure to just walk away. From this, I couldn't. The beast kept hounding me. I kept yelling and commanding "DOWN!" furiously, and started swearing like a sailor. I wished one of the other houses had a dog so perhaps they could fight and leave me to do my job. in the end, the annoying fiend just started running back home. I never saw that dog again though. I think some of the neighbours must have complained when they saw that dog's aggressive behaviour and thought "I have kids playing in the street". Perhaps the dog met someone with a longer reach than I. I guess I'll never know.

Now, anyone who has been seriously threatened with disfigurement or even death by a poorly raised cat? Yeah, thought not. Perhaps police dogs and seeing eye dogs are useful, but privately raised dogs have 2.9 strikes against them from the moment I meet them.


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## Gentlegamer (Mar 26, 2007)

Felines will attack almost anything smaller than they are. In this regard, the only difference between lions and tigers and house cats are their size. That is, house cats have the same "bad attitude" wild cats have: they just aren't big enough to throw their weight around.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 27, 2007)

> The relation between Cat and Man came about at the start of the latter's attempt at transitioning from a hunter-gatherer society to an agricultural society (mainly in Egypt, starting around 4000 BCE, though mummified cat remains from as long ago as 7500 BCE have been found on Cyprus). Cat assisted Man in overcoming an inherent efficiency threshold (by protecting food stores against rodents), directly contributing to Man's future success at civilisation.
> 
> In brief (if you'll excuse me a few shortcuts from agriculture to the development of written language, religion, science, rational though, and even the concept of "leisure" time), it is BECAUSE of Cat that Man can be a gamer in the first place.




Dogs eat rats, too, yo.



> Sorry I have to reject the notion that dogs are smarter than cats. I happen to own both and although very loyal, dogs are as dumb as dirt, so dumb in fact that dogs EAT FECES even thier own.




Eating feces or not is not a measure of intelligence.

Look, arguing animal intelligence is basically a fool's errand anyway. Because "intelligence" is only vaguely defined at best. The only people who care how smart their various fuzzballs are are those who have WAY TOO MUCH invested in said fuzzballs. 

Cats can use the toilet. Dogs can save lives in burning buildings. Tomayto, tomahto.


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## Fishbone (Mar 27, 2007)

See, cats aren't heros. How many times have you heard the tale of the cat that saved its owner's life, or repelled crooks after a break-in. You never hear about valiant bomb sniffing cats or the cat that saved its police officer's life, or the cat that won a reward for valor during war time. You just don't.
Dogs have a lot more utility than cats, that is why I give them the nod.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 27, 2007)

Even though I'm a Leo, I'd rather hang with dogs than with cats.


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## darkseraphim (Mar 27, 2007)

>>See, cats aren't heros. How many times have you heard the tale of the cat that saved its owner's life, or repelled crooks after a break-in. You never hear about valiant bomb sniffing cats or the cat that saved its police officer's life, or the cat that won a reward for valor during war time. You just don't.  Dogs have a lot more utility than cats, that is why I give them the nod.

**

Oh really?

http://fullfilth.blogspot.com/2006/04/cat-saves-babys-life-yahoo-news.html

http://www.eternalanimals.com/cat_saves_owner.htm

http://pets.families.com/blog/cat-saves-family-from-fire

http://www.ithetwilight.com/createhope/2006/07/hero-cat-saves-family-gerald-davies.html

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/features_lifestyle_animal/2006/05/smudge_the_wond.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10663270/

http://www.iampariah.com/blog/2006/09/my-cat-saved-my-familys-lives/

http://www.amazon.com/My-Cat-Saved-Life/dp/1585420638

So cats get the nod now too, right?


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## Fishbone (Mar 27, 2007)

No.





He ate cats and crapped excellence.


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## Inferno! (Mar 27, 2007)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> Cats also step through their own wastes and then get on tables, furniture, and eating surfaces, and their owners think its cute- its just nasty and a health hazard.  Cats licking their paws doesn't clean them of the bacteria- it simply transfers it to their mouths so cat bites often become infected, and their saliva isn't as strongly antibacterial as many other carnivores.




And dogs like to eat tasty snacks from the catbox...then go lick and slobber all over their owners and other poor unfortunates, and their owners think its cute.   :\ 

BTW - cats are like potato chips, you can't have just one


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## boredgremlin (Mar 27, 2007)

cats drive me crazy.. something about a pet thats totally dependent on us and still gives humans attitude like its better then us annoys me.

      I expect my pets to validate themselves by having some worth. I have taken dogs hunting, had them scare of thieves and i used to use my dogs as the only decent reason i could find to go jogging.  

  I have had both and all in all the cat was a complete waste of my time and resources. The dog added to my life greatly. 

   As a gamer i find both to be a pain during games as any pet seems to see company as a reason to be given all the attention the whole group has to offer, but at least dogs dont usually get on the table and thrash things. And very few dog owners houses smell bad.... Most cat owners homes i have gone to stunk.


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## thedungeondelver (Mar 27, 2007)

Not a cat person.  Unpersonable, cold little beasts.

Give me a nice trustworthy labrador any day of the week.  Speaking of which I think I'll take mine out for a walk.


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## darkseraphim (Mar 27, 2007)

Ah yes, decorated and promoted war animals ... another example being Able Seacat Simon of the HMS Amethyst.  Awarded the Dickin Medal for gallantry under enemy fire.

http://www.purr-n-fur.org.uk/famous/simon.html

Dogs save lives in their own way, cats save lives in their own way.  I don't see one being superior to the other however.


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## Fishbone (Mar 27, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Give me a nice trustworthy labrador any day of the week.  Speaking of which I think I'll take mine out for a walk.



Labs are so overbred that they seem almost too a dog mentally deficient. The only ones that had I.Q.s higher than a snake's junk that I've ever known were flushing and retrieving dogs from some pretty primo stock.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 27, 2007)

> Dogs save lives in their own way, cats save lives in their own way. I don't see one being superior to the other however.




Well, dogs can be depended on (and trained to) save lives in a variety of harsh conditions fairly reliably.

Cats can't really be trained professional life savers, though they certainly may chip in when they're threatened.


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## molonel (Mar 27, 2007)

Cats are the tool of the devil.

My allergies to said animals have nothing to do with this completely objective opinion.

Nothing at all.


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## ssampier (Mar 27, 2007)

neutral question:

Are just cat allergies common? My understanding is generally you are allergic to a host of fur-based creatures (cats, dogs, etc). My brother is certainly among that group, which why I never owned a pet (besides fish) in my life.


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## robberbaron (Mar 27, 2007)

Yep. I'm allergic to every cat I've ever met.


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## Dragon Snack (Mar 27, 2007)

I have a player who is allergic to cats but not my dog...


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## Umbran (Mar 27, 2007)

boredgremlin said:
			
		

> Most cat owners homes i have gone to stunk.




If you had gone into a dog-owners home, and found the dishes unwashed, would you blame it on the dog?


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## Umbran (Mar 27, 2007)

ssampier said:
			
		

> Are just cat allergies common? My understanding is generally you are allergic to a host of fur-based creatures (cats, dogs, etc).




Your understanding is not correct.  While many people are allergic to a host of different furballs, there are too many folks allergic to only one type of animal to call the former the general case.


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## Bad Paper (Mar 27, 2007)

No one of the ~dozen players in my extended gaming family has a cat.  Two each have a dog.  Cats lose.  Hell, I would get a poodle before getting a cat.


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## Fishbone (Mar 27, 2007)

Miniature or standard? Standard poodles are pretty neat.


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## Fifth Element (Mar 27, 2007)

I'm definitely an animal person, though I grew up in a house full of cats (which didn't stink, by the way). Hating an animal based on its species seems rather harsh to me. Hating an animal _at all_ seems rather harsh; an animal is an animal, and behaves as an animal does with no malice. An animal cannot be evil, because evil requires intelligence, more intelligence than any animal possesses.

I only have a bunny right now, but I plan to have both cats and dogs when I can afford a bigger place. And chinchillas. I also need chinchillas.

I will say, however, that dogs aren't really loyal; they're subservient. Their owners are the alpha dogs, so to speak. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing against dogs at all. But many people mistake their subservience for love and loyalty.


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## Ardenian (Mar 27, 2007)

i hate cats - no doubt about it.

2 summers ago - there was one on my deck, right when we were about to start some renovations - and i happened to have a 4' section of 1x12 plank laying arround.. so real nice like.. i called him over...

"pst, pst, pst.. c'mere kitty..."

and i gave him the 'ol Tiger Woods Tee-Shot.. and he flew right over he banister.

good times, good times.


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## Eridanis (Mar 27, 2007)

Off-topic seems to be a better home for this thread...


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## Piratecat (Mar 27, 2007)

Ardenian said:
			
		

> i hate cats - no doubt about it.
> 
> 2 summers ago - there was one on my deck, right when we were about to start some renovations - and i happened to have a 4' section of 1x12 plank laying arround.. so real nice like.. i called him over...
> 
> ...



Yeah, you know what? I have no tolerance for animal cruelty, or people who practice animal cruelty, or threads where people are espousing such things.

Klunk.


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