# Send In The Clowns… (or, Converting the Oddballs)



## BOZ (Apr 1, 2004)

*Send In The Clowns… (or, Converting the Oddballs)*

This is a special thread (special, that is, as in Special Olympics) that will only be running through April.  In this thread we will only be working on the silliest of the silly, the weirdest of the weird, the lamest of the lame… the creatures we might otherwise not waste our time on.  

This thread will cover any monster from any edition that you would never use in your campaign, other than as a joke.  These can be creatures already in the CC that need a 3.5 update, or stuff better left unconverted.    Yes, this can include creatures from April issues of Dragon.  When we finish one, you tell me what you want to torture us with next.  

To give you an example of what I mean, here is our first victim.


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2004)

Tirapheg 
Medium-Size Aberration 
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp) 
Initiative: +0 
Speed: 10 ft
AC: 10 
Attacks: 2 spikes +4 melee, claw -1 melee 
Damage: 2 spikes 1d4+3, claw 1d4+1 
Face/Reach: 5 ft by 5 ft/5 ft 
Special Attacks: Improved grab, constrict 1d4+3, illusions 
Special Qualities: All-around vision 
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +4 
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 11, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10 
Skills: Hide +5, Jump +8, Listen +5, Search +8, Spot +9

Climate/Terrain: Any mountains and marsh 
Organization: Solitary 
Challenge Rating: 1 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium-size); 5-6 HD (Large) 

The tirapheg may well be one of the strangest known aberrations in existence. Its humanoid shape stands about 7 feet tall, is naked, and hairless. The tirapheg has three heads; the outer two being featureless. The central head has three large, inset eyes, two on the front of the head (above the nose) and one to the rear. Small ears flank each side of the central head. The tirapheg has no mouth.

      Three arms protrude from the tirapheg’s body; two at the shoulders and one from the central chest. The two arms at the shoulder are jointed so as to move both forwards and backwards. They are prehensile and end in a 6-inch long spike rather than hands. The third arm (the chest arm) ends in a three-fingered hand. The tirapheg’s lower torso ends in three legs; the outer two ending in stumps and the central leg ending in a single foot with three long toes.

      Below the tirapheg’s third arm, situated in the middle of its torso, is the creature’s mouth. Three small tentacles writhe constantly above the mouth.

COMBAT 
Normally the tirapheg avoids encounters, but these unpredictable creatures have been known to attack living creatures for reasons known only to the tirapheg.

      A tirapheg that successfully hits an opponent with its central arm usually maintains the hold until it or its opponent is dead. If cornered or if melee is going against it, the tirapheg uses its illusion ability to deceive its attackers.

      Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the tirapheg must hit an opponent of up to Medium-size with both of its spikes. If it gets a hold, it uses its central arm to strangle the opponent.

      Constrict (Ex): A tirapheg deals 1d4+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against Medium-size or smaller creatures. Because it seizes victims by the neck, a creature in the tirapheg’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.

      Illusions (Su): A tirapheg can project two illusionary replicas of itself which it controls telepathically. These illusions fight as the original creature and take no damage themselves, though they deal damage to opponents if they are not recognized for what they are (this works like the silent image spell in all other respects, except that the illusions disappear only when the creature is killed or when its opponents retreat out of sight).

      At the instant the illusions are created by the creature, it has the ability to generate a split-second blinding flash of light to cover the appearance of the illusions, which causes all creatures and persons within a 30 range to stand as if affected by a confusion spell for one melee round (no save to avoid). The tirapheg and its illusions attack in the melee round in which the illusions are created. 

      All-around Vision (Ex): The tirapheg’s three eyes allow it to see things in front of it as well as behind it, bestowing a +4 racial bonus to Spot and Search checks. Tirapheg’s can’t be flanked.

The tirapheg first appeared in the 1st edition Fiend Folio (1981)


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2004)

Man, I was hoping you'd start a thread like this.   All those goofy monsters from Dragon's April Fools issues will finally be unleashed upon 3E.  

Somewhere, carbuncles and stwingers are rejoicing.


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2004)

heheh... 

carbuncles are covered already, they were in the ToH.  stwingers, on the other hand, we have in the CC, and they could always be next...


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2004)

Well, for starters, it gets a feat now.   Should we give it something odd to go along with its strangeness (like Deceitful), or something it could really benefit from (like Multiattack)?


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2004)

i think the tirapheg was the second monster i ever converted - the first was the qullan.  i was going for things that i thought no one else would do.  

this version i posted above was after my version was edited by scott, but here is my original conversion of the tirapheg from way way long ago:
http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=698&highlight=tirapheg

i thought i remembered giving it multiattack before, and maybe i did and later removed it.  but i think that feat is probably the best one for this guy.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

I'm just glad that Leopold gave up on LA's.   We wouldn't want to encourage anyone to play a tirapheg.   

Multiattack sounds good.

Are we giving them the aberration standard darkvision 60 feet?

It gets 10 skill points now.

Assuming Multiattack, attack lines should now read:

Attack: Spikes +4 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: 2 spikes +4 melee (1d4+3), claw +2 melee (1d4+1)

You gotta love that AC 10.  At least it doesn't care whether its a touch attack or caught flat-footed...it's all the same!


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

LOL
AC: 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

here is the original:

TIRAPHEG
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 7
ARMOUR CLASS: 10
MOVE: 3"
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAG E/ATTAC K: 1-4/1-4/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Strangle
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Illusions
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (7' tall)
PSlONlC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defence Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: 111/73 + 2 per hit point


This tripedal hermaphrodite is 7' tall, naked and hairless. Its shape is human-like, but there are significant deviations from human form. The creature has three heads of which the outer two are featureless. The middle head has three large, deeply-inset eyes, two t o the front, (above the nose as a human) and one to the rear; it has ear-like organs on each side, but no mouth.

From the body of the creature spring three arms; the two at the shoulders are jointed in such a way that they can attack to the rear with equal facility as t o the front of the body - these are prehensile limbs with a 6" long spike a t the end of each. The third arm, emerging centrally from the chest, is like a human arm except that the hand has three strong fingers. Of the creature's three legs, the outer two are stumps and the central one has three unusually long and strong toes.

The tirapheg's mouth is located in its belly below the central arm; this is for the sole purpose of eating, the creature's favourite diet being decayed flesh. Above the mouth are three 3" long tentacles which writhe continuously - the function of these organs is unknown. 

When this curious creature attacks to its rear the spikes will strike a victim at -2 on the 'to hit' roll because the single eye gives poor depth of vision. A spike causes 1-4 hit points of damage if it hits.

When attacking to it s front, the creature strikes with the spikes, though with no 'to hit' penalty; if both spikes hit a victim, the central arm will hit the same victim automatically, requiring no 'to hit' roll, grasping the victim's neck and strangling him for an additional 1-4 hit points of damage.

Normally the tirapheg will shy away from other creatures, but its behaviour can be unpredictable and it has been known for a tirapheg to attack a party of adventurers for no apparent reason.

I f the creature is cornered in melee, with the fight going against it but a retreat impossible (it moves very slowly) it will project two illusions - replicas of itself - which it controls telepathically. These illusions will fight as the original creature and will take no damage themselves, though they will do damage to opponents if they are not recognised for what they are (treat as phantasmal force except that the illusions disappear only when the creature is killed or when i t s opponents retreat out of sight). At the instant the illusions are created by the creature, .it has the ability to generate a split-second blinding flash of light (to cover the appearance of the illusions) which causes all creatures and persons within a 30' range to stand confused for one melee round. The tirapheg and its illusions can attack in the melee round in which the illusions are created.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> NO. APPEARING: 7



Is this a typo, or yet more of the brilliant oddness that is the tirapheg?


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

LOL  that probably ought to be 1.  sometimes those scanners don't read things properly...


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

Bummer.   I was already imagining the dreaded Tirapheg Septad.   Maybe that could be their ruling council.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

heheheh...


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## Krishnath (Apr 5, 2004)

Ah, a thread for the dreaded Calzone Golem I see...


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## BOZ (Apr 9, 2004)

Anyway…  

There’s really not that much to do here.  Let’s see…

Rewriting this


> All-around Vision (Ex): The tirapheg’s three eyes allow it to see things in front of it as well as behind it, bestowing a +4 racial bonus to Spot and Search checks. Tiraphegs can’t be flanked.



to this, to be more 3.5ish:
All-Around Vision (Ex): A tiraphegs’s three, equally spaced eyes give it a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and it can't be flanked.


Do we want to keep the strangle attack as is?  If so, it goes from


> Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the tirapheg must hit an opponent of up to Medium-size with both of its spikes. If it gets a hold, it uses its central arm to strangle the opponent.
> 
> Constrict (Ex): A tirapheg deals 1d4+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against Medium-size or smaller creatures. Because it seizes victims by the neck, a creature in the tirapheg’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.



to something like:
Constrict (Ex): A tirapheg deals 1d4+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check.  Because it seizes victims by the neck, a creature in a tirapheg’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a tirapheg must hit with both of its spike attacks.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and constrict the victim bys strangling with its central arm.


About the only other thing is the creature’s odd illusion powers.  1E FF gives it


> I f the creature is cornered in melee, with the fight going against it but a retreat impossible (it moves very slowly) it will project two illusions - replicas of itself - which it controls telepathically. These illusions will fight as the original creature and will take no damage themselves, though they will do damage to opponents if they are not recognised for what they are (treat as phantasmal force except that the illusions disappear only when the creature is killed or when i t s opponents retreat out of sight). At the instant the illusions are created by the creature, .it has the ability to generate a split-second blinding flash of light (to cover the appearance of the illusions) which causes all creatures and persons within a 30' range to stand confused for one melee round. The tirapheg and its illusions can attack in the melee round in which the illusions are created.




which I wrote, and I think Scott edited into:


> Illusions (Su): A tirapheg can project two illusionary replicas of itself which it controls telepathically. These illusions fight as the original creature and take no damage themselves, though they deal damage to opponents if they are not recognized for what they are (this works like the silent image spell in all other respects, except that the illusions disappear only when the creature is killed or when its opponents retreat out of sight).
> 
> At the instant the illusions are created by the creature, it has the ability to generate a split-second blinding flash of light to cover the appearance of the illusions, which causes all creatures and persons within a 30 range to stand as if affected by a confusion spell for one melee round (no save to avoid). The tirapheg and its illusions attack in the melee round in which the illusions are created.




How well does that fit?


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> All-Around Vision (Ex): A tiraphegs’s three, equally spaced eyes give it a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and it can't be flanked.



Excellent.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Do we want to keep the strangle attack as is?



Yep, and your rewrite looks good. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> About the only other thing is the creature’s odd illusion powers.
> How well does that fit?



It looks good to me.  Illusions are definitely not one of my strong areas, so I'm trusting your knowledge on this one.


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## BOZ (Apr 12, 2004)

Illusions aren’t exactly my strong suit either.    still, I can see some of that section that needs revision, if we take it piece by piece.



> Illusions (Su): A tirapheg can project two illusionary replicas of itself which it controls telepathically.




that sentence is very sloppy.  There’s got to be a way to phrase “mental control” over an illusion that doesn’t involve the word telepathy, which means something very different in modern D&D.



> These illusions fight as the original creature and take no damage themselves, though they deal damage to opponents if they are not recognized for what they are (this works like the silent image spell in all other respects, except that the illusions disappear only when the creature is killed or when its opponents retreat out of sight).




this is a bit clumsy, but might not reed revision.  Are there any illusion spells that allow the illusions to attack and deal damage if the victim fails the will save?



> At the instant the illusions are created by the creature, it has the ability to generate a split-second blinding flash of light to cover the appearance of the illusions, which causes all creatures and persons within a 30 range to stand as if affected by a confusion spell for one melee round (no save to avoid).




we could replace some of that with a reference to lesser confusion, to cut down on the explanation.  Optionally, we could also make this effect more like the flare spell.



> The tirapheg and its illusions attack in the melee round in which the illusions are created.




this can probably be removed, or added to another section.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

Check out simulacrum for some of the answers.


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## BOZ (Apr 13, 2004)

yes, that does work for part of it:

Illusions (Su): A tirapheg can create two illusory duplicates of itself at the same time.  The duplicates are partially real, and appear to be the same as the original.  These duplicates remain under the tirapheg’s absolute command at all times, through a telepathic link.

just need to figure out how to state that they can attack and cause damage, but take no damage themselves.

what do you think of the lesser confusion/flare idea?

Edit: PHB, page 173 offers up a fair amount of info on illusions.  it states that figments and glamers specifically cannot cause damage to creatures or objects.  we would need these illusions to be mind-affecting.  it might be of the shadow type, if successfully disbeleiving a shadow-illusion allows you to negate the damage.  otherwise, perhaps a pattern is more appropriate (patterns are there for all to see, whereas phantasms exist only in the minds of those chosen by the caster).


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## Leopold (Apr 13, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm just glad that Leopold gave up on LA's.   We wouldn't want to encourage anyone to play a tirapheg.
> 
> :





I never give up! Just retreat to fight on another day in the rear!


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2004)

BOZ - I like the lesser confusion idea and think we should make it a pattern.

Leopold - Glad to hear it!   So, what LA would you give these freaks?


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## BOZ (Apr 13, 2004)

I’ve posted a thread in the Rules forum asking about this (http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=83831).  I think it’s ready, except for this part:


> These illusions fight as the original creature and take no damage themselves, though they deal damage to opponents if they are not recognized for what they are (this works like the silent image spell in all other respects, except that the illusions disappear only when the creature is killed or when its opponents retreat out of sight).




and here is what I have worked out so far, tell me if this sounds good:

Illusions (Su): A tirapheg can create two illusory duplicates of itself at the same time, as a standard action. The duplicates are partially real, and appear to be the same as the original. These duplicates remain under the tirapheg’s absolute command at all times, through a telepathic link.  The duplicates may take a standard action in the melee round they are created, and always take their actions on the tirapheg’s initiative.

This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is (Charisma?)-based.

At the instant a tirapheg creates these duplicates it generates a split-second flash of dazzling light, which affects all creatures in a 30-foot radius that can see the tirapheg as a lesser confusion spell.  This effect conceals the sudden appearance of the illusions, and a tirapheg cannot use it at any other time.  There is no saving throw for this effect.


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## Leopold (Apr 13, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> BOZ - I like the lesser confusion idea and think we should make it a pattern.
> 
> Leopold - Glad to hear it!   So, what LA would you give these freaks?




probably shoot for a solid 2 here. All around vision, unbalanced stats and a permanent mirror image ability are really hella powerful. Plus it get's 2 attacks for free and improved grab. 2 is a good number.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I’ve posted a thread in the Rules forum asking about this (http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=83831). I think it’s ready, except for this part:
> 
> 
> and here is what I have worked out so far, tell me if this sounds good:
> ...



Sounds good.  Cha-based makes the most sense to me.


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## BOZ (Apr 16, 2004)

If we base it on Charisma, should we up the Cha score?

OK, here is what I’m working with now:

Illusions (Su): A tirapheg can create two illusory duplicates of itself at the same time, as a standard action. The duplicates are made of material from the Plane of Shadow and are partially real, and appear to be the same as the original. The duplicates have no hit points and are unaffected by any form of attack.  They have the same Armor Class as the tirapheg, and may appear to take damage if struck.  The duplicates otherwise have the same statistics as the tirapheg, except that they cannot likewise create more illusions.

These duplicates remain under the tirapheg’s absolute command at all times, through a telepathic link.  The duplicates may take a standard action in the melee round they are created, and always take their actions on the tirapheg’s initiative.  These illusions disappear only at the tirapheg’s will, or when the tirapheg is killed.  The tirapheg may only create and maintain two duplicates at a time.

Any creature that interacts with the duplicates can make a Will save (DC X) to recognize their true nature.  Any creature that makes a successful Will save cannot be harmed by a duplicate; objects automatically succeed on their will saves.  The duplicates deal normal damage to creatures that believe they are real. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

At the instant a tirapheg creates these duplicates it generates a split-second flash of dazzling light, which affects all creatures in a 30-foot radius that can see the tirapheg as a lesser confusion spell.  This effect conceals the sudden appearance of the illusions, and a tirapheg cannot use it at any other time.  There is no saving throw for this effect.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2004)

Yeah, up the Con score.   Maybe to 13?

Should we have a caster level for the effect (for dispelling purposes, for example)?  Otherwise, the ability looks great!


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## BOZ (Apr 16, 2004)

do you mean up the Cha or up the Con?  

and i'd say no on dispelling.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2004)

Oops again.  I'd swear it was Monday rather than Friday the way I've been functioning today!

As for the dispelling, I meant only for the lesser confusion effect, though its duration is so short it probably doesn't matter.


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## BOZ (Apr 20, 2004)

ah, i see what you mean now.  and yeah, dispelling is probably irrelevant - unless you were travelling with a rather spellcaster-heavy group (and even then...) by the time anyone got around to dispelling it, it would be over anyway.  

and i'll raise the Cha to 13 - the DC will still be pretty low, but all things considered, it's probably better that way.


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## BOZ (Apr 20, 2004)

OK, time to finish up…

We going with Leo’s +2 LA?

Looks like they had 22 skill points under old rules, but now they only have 10.  how about:
Skills: Hide +3, Jump +3, Listen +2, Search +0, Spot +2
(also +4 all-around vision bonus)

A tirapheg is 7 feet tall, and weighs about (maybe 50-100 pounds more than a human).


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## Shade (Apr 21, 2004)

That all sounds good.  I'd lean towards the extra 100 pounds, since they are tall _and_ have extra body parts.


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## BOZ (Apr 21, 2004)

OK then!    how does this look?

*Tirapheg*
Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+4
Attack: Spikes +4 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: 2 spikes +4 melee (1d4+3) and claw +2 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, constrict 1d4+3, illusions
Special Qualities: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +4
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 11, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13
Skills: Hide +3, Jump +6, Listen +3, Search +4, Spot +7
Feats: Multiattack

Environment: Any mountains and marsh
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +2

_This pseudo-humanoid creature has a truly bizarre appearance.  It is taller than the average human, wearing no clothing or equipment and is completely hairless and mostly featureless.  It has three heads, and only the central one has any features.  The middle head has three large, deeply-inset eyes spaced equidistantly around the head – two in front where a human’s would be, and one in back.  Small ears flank each side of this head, and it has no mouth.

Its body is equally unusual.  It has three arms, two of which are at the shoulders and double-jointed, ending in a 6-inch long spike rather than hands.  The third arm protrudes from its chest, ending in a three-fingered hand.  The creature also has three legs; the outer two ending in stumps and the central leg ending in a footpad with three long toes.  Below the creature’s central arm is a mouth-like orifice, above which are seen three 3-inch long tentacles that writhe constantly._

The tirapheg may well be one of the strangest known aberrations in existence, at least due mostly to its odd anatomy. It says nothing, and sages have had little success in divining much of anything about the tirapheg.  Its actual mouth is the one located in its chest; a tirapheg’s favorite food is decayed flesh.  The purpose for the tentacles above the mouth is a mystery, like the creature itself.

A tirapheg is 7 feet tall, and weighs about 225 pounds.

A tirapheg does not speak and perhaps cannot, and might not understand any language.

COMBAT 
Normally the tirapheg avoids encounters, but these unpredictable creatures exhibit erratic behavior and have been known to attack living creatures for reasons known only to the tirapheg.

      A tirapheg that successfully spikes an opponent with both spikes can attach its central arm around the victim’s neck as a free action.  A tirapheg uses this arm to strangle its opponent, and usually maintains the hold until it or its opponent is dead. If cornered or if melee is going against it, a tirapheg will use its illusion ability to deceive its attackers and escape.

Constrict (Ex): A tirapheg deals 1d4+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check.  Because it seizes victims by the neck, a creature in a tirapheg’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a tirapheg must hit with both of its spike attacks.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and constricts.

Illusions (Su): A tirapheg can create two illusory duplicates of itself at the same time, as a standard action. The duplicates are made of material from the Plane of Shadow and are partially real, and appear to be the same as the original. The duplicates have no hit points and are unaffected by any form of attack.  They have the same Armor Class as the tirapheg, and may appear to take damage if struck.  The duplicates otherwise have the same statistics as the tirapheg, except that they cannot likewise create more illusions.

These duplicates remain under the tirapheg’s absolute command at all times, through a telepathic link.  The duplicates may take a standard action in the melee round they are created, and always take their actions on the tirapheg’s initiative.  These illusions disappear only at the tirapheg’s will, or when the tirapheg is killed.  The tirapheg may only create and maintain two duplicates at a time.

Any creature that interacts with the duplicates can make a Will save (DC 12) to recognize their true nature.  Any creature that makes a successful Will save cannot be harmed by a duplicate; objects automatically succeed on their will saves.  The duplicates deal normal damage to creatures that believe they are real. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

At the instant a tirapheg creates these duplicates it generates a split-second flash of dazzling light, which affects all creatures in a 30-foot radius (except the tirapheg itself) that can see the tirapheg as a lesser confusion spell.  This effect conceals the sudden appearance of the illusions, and a tirapheg cannot use it at any other time.  There is no saving throw for this effect.

All-Around Vision (Ex): A tiraphegs’s three equally spaced eyes give it a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and it can't be flanked.

The tirapheg first appeared in the first edition Fiend Folio (1981, Colin Reynolds).


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2004)

Wow, that has to be the longest italicized description yet!   

It looks good.  We better hustle on the next one if we're gonna finish it before April expires!!!


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## BOZ (Apr 22, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Wow, that has to be the longest italicized description yet!




it's absolutely necessary.  trust me.  



> It looks good.  We better hustle on the next one if we're gonna finish it before April expires!!!




oh well, no rush...  what's your poison?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2004)

How about something truly silly, like the armadillephant or duckbunny?


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## martynq (Apr 23, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about something truly silly, like the armadillephant or duckbunny?



Doesn't one just apply the Abomination template from Tome of Horrors to the pairing of an armadillo and elephant for the first, and the pairing of a duck and a rabbit for the second?

Martyn


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## BOZ (Apr 23, 2004)

Shade, sounds good.  The best part is, I don’t even think Jonathan Richards designed them as April Fools monsters either.    IIRC, they were supposed to be a silly extrapolation of wizards who go “I wonder what you get if you mix X with X?  let’s try an owl and a bear today…”

martyn - that's the nice and easy way to do it.  but we never ever do anything nice...  and easy.  we always like to do things rough!

_big wheel keep on turnin', proud mary keep on burnin'..._


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2004)

Yeah, experimentation can yield cool critters.  Owlbears are cool.  An armadillephant could be cool.  A duckbunny...well, uh...


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2005)

It's about that time again.    

I say, bring on the Duckbunny!


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## Filby (Mar 28, 2005)

DUCKBUNNY!!!


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## BOZ (Mar 28, 2005)

LOL  ok, i'll see what i can do tonight.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2005)

as you wish...   if anyone sees Richards around the boards, kindly direct him to page 2 of this thread. 

Duckbunny
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 6, swim 12
HIT DICE: 1-3 hp
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T
MORALE: Unreliable (2)
XP VALUE: 7

Magical crossbreeding is a dangerous endeavor. Rather than start experimenting in this field with potentially lethal creatures like the owlbear, most wizards prefer to begin their efforts with tamer, less deadly beasts. In this respect, duckbunnies are perfect candidates for the enterprising young mage just beginning his journey on the path of the cross-breeder. Made from harmless creatures of two separate types of animals—a mammal and a bird—the duckbunny provides a valuable lesson in crossbreeding magic.
Duckbunnies are the result of combining a snowshoe hare and a duck. With their ducks beak and webbed feet, they resemble nothing so much as some bizarre member of the platypus family, although their long bunny ears prevent them from being mistaken for those creatures. Almost all duckbunnies are white with orange-yellow bills and feet, and big, black eyes.
Combat: Duckbunnies generally do not engage in combat, fleeing instead from any encounter. If cornered, they will snap their beaks at any extended extremities within reach, from fingers to noses, but these attacks do no damage. Instead, the recipient of a duckbunny bite must check for surprise; if surprised, he is so shocked by the attack from such an inoffensive creature that he loses his initiative the next round. The duckbunny then takes the opportunity to flee.
Habitat/Society: Duckbunnies tend to follow the lifestyles of normal rabbits, with some exceptions. Like rabbits, they live in underground burrows, prefer a vegetarian diet, and breed in great numbers. However, due to their partial waterfowl nature, duckbunnies lay eggs instead of giving birth to live young have an insulating layer of fluffy down feathers underneath their fur and are excellent swimmers. They occasionally supplement their vegetarian diet with small fish they catch in their bills.
If freed, duckbunnies tend to make their homes along the banks of small bodies of water such as lakes and ponds. They can be as big a nuisance to vegetable gardens as are normal rabbits, although as long as there are water plants available most duckbunnies would prefer not to risk the dangers of cultivated gardens. In turn, duckbunnies are preyed upon by cats, wolves, and just about anything that hunts rabbits—and since a duckbunny’s waddling gait on land is much slower than a true rabbits leaps and bounds, duckbunnies are often slain in the wild. Their main defensive strategy is to head for the water and swim to safety.
Occasionally, a duckbunny will answer the summons of a find familiar spell and serve a wizard in that capacity. As far as familiars go, a wizard could certainly do worse, but most wizards are less than pleased to see a duckbunny waddle up to them after the intensive preparation and effort involved in the casting of the find familiar spell.
Ecology: Normally created by fledgling wizards as an initial exercise in magical crossbreeding, duckbunnies nonetheless have several valuable features. Their eggs are delicious, and their high breeding rate ensures a steady supply. Because of the insulating properties of their downy feathers, duckbunny skins make excellent cloaks, capes, and boots. Duckbunny meat makes for a good stew, and is almost indistinguishable from rabbit meat.
When disturbed or surprised, duckbunnies cry out with a loud, duck-like “quack.” This quacking makes duckbunnies an inexpensive alarm system, and many people are starting to use duckbunnies as the first line of defense in their home security systems. Granted, a duckbunny won’t attack intruders like a good guard dog will, but he’ll make a loud enough racket to warn the inhabitants and possibly scare off the intruder in the meantime. In addition, their high breeding rate makes duckbunnies much easier to replace than guard dogs, in the event that one or two are killed in the line of duty.
Finally, and most importantly to some, duckbunnies are almost irresistibly cute, with their big eyes, floppy ears, and soft, downy fur. It is no coincidence that a majority of the wizards who have created duckbunnies in the laboratory have young daughters at home, and it must be stated that duckbunnies do make wonderful pets.
Domesticated duckbunnies live for about ten years on average (much less in the wild), although those that become wizards’ familiars can live for much longer.


some preliminary stats for the duckbunny:

*Duckbunny* 
Diminutive/Tiny Magical Beast?
Hit Dice: 1/4d10+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), swim 30 ft
Armor Class: X (+X size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d2-X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d2-X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: surprise attack
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X 
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 1, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: ?
Feats: ?

Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or pack (2-10)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 
Level Adjustment: ---


COMBAT

Dragon Magazine #243 ("The Dragon's Bestiary," January 1998, Johnathan M. Richards),


----------



## Shade (Mar 29, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Combat: Duckbunnies generally do not engage in combat, fleeing instead from any encounter. If cornered, they will snap their beaks at any extended extremities within reach, from fingers to noses, but these attacks do no damage. Instead, the recipient of a duckbunny bite must check for surprise; if surprised, he is so shocked by the attack from such an inoffensive creature that he loses his initiative the next round. The duckbunny then takes the opportunity to flee.




I'd say Will save or be dazed for 1 round.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Occasionally, a duckbunny will answer the summons of a find familiar spell and serve a wizard in that capacity. As far as familiars go, a wizard could certainly do worse, but most wizards are less than pleased to see a duckbunny waddle up to them after the intensive preparation and effort involved in the casting of the find familiar spell.




No need for the Improved Familiar feat, methinks.  Should the duckbunny provide a bonus on Swim checks, or maybe on Initiative, to its master?

I'd go with Tiny.  Even a rat is Tiny.

Ability scores of "similar" creatures:

Hare (from Dragon Magazine):  Str 3, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Ibis (waterfowl from Races of Faerun):  Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6

So, Str 3-6, Dex 17-18, Con 10-11, Int 2 (I'd raise it to 2 since most mammals and birds have 2), Wis 12-16, Cha 6-7.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2005)

sounds good so far.  more later.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2005)

I say Str 5, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 7. Give it Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat (since it has a +0 BAB). I think the familiar benefit should be +2 to Initiative checks. Or should it be +3? And yes, the size should be Tiny.

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2005)

Is magical beast the right choice here?  Or animal, since it's not much different than its component critters? (though owlbear is admittedly an MB)



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd say Will save or be dazed for 1 round.




Snap (Ex): When a creature is hit by a duckbunny's bite attack, it must succeed on a DC X Will save or be dazed for 1 round. Once a creature witnesses this attack, it can never again be affected by a duckbunny's snap attack. This is a mind-affecting effect. (?) The save DC is X-based.

Making it Dex-based would give it the highest DC, and attribute it to the suddenness of such an attack.
Making it Cha-based would be like intimidation - which, based on its tiny size and low Cha, wouldn't be very effective.
Con-based is sort of possible I guess, but I can't see it going with any other ability score.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2005)

I say Dex based. And magical beast sounds good, although there should then probably be a disclaimer about how they can be summoned as familiars despite not being animals.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2005)

Definitely magical beast.   I like the snap ability, and agree with Dex-based.

Looking through some of the Forgotten Realms books, it looks like the format for mentioning how a monster can be aquired as a familiar is thus:

If Improved Familiar is not required:  "An ibis familiar grants its master a +3 bonus on Spot checks."

If Improved Familiar is required:  "A beguiler can be acquired as a familiar by a 7th-level arcane spellcaster with the Improved Familiar feat. See page 200 of the DMG for more information."

So, for this guy, I'd just add:  "A duckbunny grants its master a +3 bonus on Initiative checks."


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## Krishnath (Mar 30, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Definitely magical beast.   I like the snap ability, and agree with Dex-based.
> 
> Looking through some of the Forgotten Realms books, it looks like the format for mentioning how a monster can be aquired as a familiar is thus:
> 
> ...



 +3 on initiative! Are you insane! a +2 arcane bonus on initiative is much better (stacks with Improved Initiative and other feats.)


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2005)

I am insane.  I was basing it off the only other familiar I could find that grants an Initiative bonus, the rhamphorhynchus dinosaur in Dragon #318.  I'm fine with toning it down to +2, though.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2005)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> And magical beast sounds good, although there should then probably be a disclaimer about how they can be summoned as familiars despite not being animals.




agreed.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I like the snap ability, and agree with Dex-based.




should I keep the mind-affecting part in there?  I can’t imagine something immune to mind-affecting effects being dazed by something like that.  But then, I think I heard somewhere that Ex abilities can’t be mind-affecting?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Looking through some of the Forgotten Realms books, it looks like the format for mentioning how a monster can be aquired as a familiar is thus:
> 
> If Improved Familiar is not required: "An ibis familiar grants its master a +3 bonus on Spot checks."
> 
> ...




coolness.   I really want to get Lost Empires of Faerun…

however you guys decide to work out the familiar bonus is fine by me, because I don’t know a whole hell of a lot about how familiars work.   

it only gets 4 skill points, so Listen 2 and Spot 2?  (fairly standard stuff there.)  Its Swim bonus, minus its Str mod is +5.


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## Krishnath (Mar 30, 2005)

Boz: Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> should I keep the mind-affecting part in there?  I can’t imagine something immune to mind-affecting effects being dazed by something like that.  But then, I think I heard somewhere that Ex abilities can’t be mind-affecting?




Hmmm...it's more of a shocking surprise than something assaulting a creature's mind.  Just because something is immune to mind-affecting abilities doesn't mean they wouldn't be freaked out if a big, hairy spider dropped on their shoulder, right?    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> coolness.   I really want to get Lost Empires of Faerun…




Its a pretty quality book.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> however you guys decide to work out the familiar bonus is fine by me, because I don’t know a whole hell of a lot about how familiars work.




I'd just go with +2.  Most feats and items that grant init bonuses (other than Improved Initiative, obviously) grant a +2 bonus.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it only gets 4 skill points, so Listen 2 and Spot 2?  (fairly standard stuff there.)  Its Swim bonus, minus its Str mod is +5.




Skill ranks sound good.   Should we let it use its Dex modifier for Swim checks?


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2005)

*Duckbunny* 
Tiny Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 1/2d10 (2 hp) 
Initiative: +4
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), swim 30 ft
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-10
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d2-3 plus snap)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d2-3 plus snap)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Snap
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2 Ref +6 Will +2
Abilities: Str 5, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4, Swim +12
Feats: Weapon Finesse (plus one bonus?)

Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or pack (2-10)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: +X (cohort)

_This creature might have a more bizarre appearance than the platypus.  It has the beak and webbed feet of a waterfowl, and the body and long ears of a rabbit.  Its body is white, with orange-yellow bills and feet, and its eyes are big and black._

The duckbunny is the result of magical crossbreeding experiments; in this case, this creature is the result of combining a snowshoe hare and a duck.  Since such experiments are dangerous endeavors, enterprising wizards prefer to start with tamer beasts than something like an owlbear.  From the combination of mammal and bird, many young wizards learn a valuable lesson in the art of crossbreeding species.

Duckbunnies tend to live like normal rabbits, with a few exceptions.  Like rabbits, they live in underground burrows, and eat mostly vegetables.  Like ducks, they lay eggs instead of giving birth to live young, are excellent swimmers, and do eat the occasional fish.  If a duckbunny is freed into the wild, it will make its home along the banks of a small body of water, such as a lake or pond.  A duckbunny can live on the water plants it finds there, but can be as big a nuisance to vegetable gardens as a normal rabbit.

Duckbunnies sometimes become familiars to wizards and make excellent pets, with their big eyes, floppy ears, and soft, downy fur. They cry out with a loud quacking sound when disturbed or surprised, making a duckbunny a rather inexpensive alarm system.  Though they won’t attack like a guard dog, a killed duckbunny is easy to replace due to their high breeding rate.

The duckbunny also has several practical uses.  Their eggs are delicious, and they breed like rabbits, which ensures a steady supply.  Their downy feathers provide excellent insulation, such that their skins make excellent cloaks, capes, and boots.  Duckbunny meat also makes for a good stew and tastes just like rabbit meat.

A duckbunny is X inches long, and weighs only X pounds.

COMBAT
Duckbunnies generally take the first opportunity to flee from any hostile encounter.  If cornered, a duckbunny will snap its beak at any extremities within reach, from fingers to noses.  Many creatures are shocked by an attack from such an inoffensive-looking creature, giving the duckbunny its chance to escape.

Snap (Ex): When a creature is hit by a duckbunny's bite attack, it must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or be dazed for 1 round. Once a creature witnesses this attack, it can never again be affected by a duckbunny's snap attack. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

Skills: A duckbunny has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard.  It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered.  It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Duckbunnies use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Swim checks.

Dragon Magazine #243 ("The Dragon's Bestiary," January 1998, Johnathan M. Richards).


----------



## BOZ (Mar 30, 2005)

what sort of section would you add for familiars?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2005)

No section needed.  Just add the following paragraph to the descriptive text before the length and weight paragraph:

"A duckbunny familiar grants its master a +2 bonus on Initiative checks."


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2005)

For length and weight, assuming it is of cottontail rabbit stock, a duckbunny is 15-19 inches long and weighs between 2 and 4 pounds.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2005)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> there should then probably be a disclaimer about how they can be summoned as familiars despite not being animals.




and this part?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2005)

I don't think that is an issue.  Other magical beasts, such as the tressym can be familiars, without any disclaimer.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2005)

allright then.    hey, we're just about done - nice and quick, this was!

should we need any other feats beyond Weapon Finesse?

LA and CR ideas?

i want to get another look at the picture to make sure the italicized part is adequate before i post it to the CC.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2005)

I think Weapon Finesse is sufficient.  If anything else, maybe Stealthy or Alertness as a bonus feat.

CR:  1/6 (same as penguin in Frostburn)?

LA:  -.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2005)

doesn't it need a cohort LA to be a familiar?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2005)

Not necessarily.  The penguin has none, and it is a familiar option in Frostburn.  On the other hand, the tressym and the beguiler both have +0 (cohort), so maybe we should just err on the side of caution and go with that.


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2005)

i'll go with that.

how she's looking now then eh?  

*Duckbunny* 
Tiny Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 1/2d10 (2 hp) 
Initiative: +4
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), swim 30 ft
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-10
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d2-3 plus snap)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d2-3 plus snap)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Snap
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2 Ref +6 Will +2
Abilities: Str 5, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4, Swim +12
Feats: Weapon Finesse

Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or pack (2-10)
Challenge Rating: 1/6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: +0 (cohort)

_This creature might have a more bizarre appearance than the platypus.  It has the beak and webbed feet of a waterfowl, and the body and long ears of a rabbit.  Its body is white, with orange-yellow bills and feet, and its eyes are big and black._

The duckbunny is the result of magical crossbreeding experiments; in this case, this creature is the result of combining a snowshoe hare and a duck.  Since such experiments are dangerous endeavors, enterprising wizards prefer to start with tamer beasts than something like an owlbear.  From the combination of mammal and bird, many young wizards learn a valuable lesson in the art of crossbreeding species.

Duckbunnies tend to live like normal rabbits, with a few exceptions.  Like rabbits, they live in underground burrows, and eat mostly vegetables.  Like ducks, they lay eggs instead of giving birth to live young, are excellent swimmers, and do eat the occasional fish.  If a duckbunny is freed into the wild, it will make its home along the banks of a small body of water, such as a lake or pond.  A duckbunny can live on the water plants it finds there, but can be as big a nuisance to vegetable gardens as a normal rabbit.

Duckbunnies sometimes become familiars to wizards and make excellent pets, with their big eyes, floppy ears, and soft, downy fur. They cry out with a loud quacking sound when disturbed or surprised, making a duckbunny a rather inexpensive alarm system.  Though they won’t attack like a guard dog, a killed duckbunny is easy to replace due to their high breeding rate.  A duckbunny familiar grants its master a +2 bonus on Initiative checks.

The duckbunny also has several practical uses.  Their eggs are delicious, and they breed like rabbits, which ensures a steady supply.  Their downy feathers provide excellent insulation, such that their skins make excellent cloaks, capes, and boots.  Duckbunny meat also makes for a good stew and tastes just like rabbit meat.

A duckbunny is 15-19 inches long, and weighs between 2-4 pounds.

COMBAT
Duckbunnies generally take the first opportunity to flee from any hostile encounter.  If cornered, a duckbunny will snap its beak at any extremities within reach, from fingers to noses.  Many creatures are shocked by an attack from such an inoffensive-looking creature, giving the duckbunny its chance to escape.

Snap (Ex): When a creature is hit by a duckbunny's bite attack, it must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or be dazed for 1 round. Once a creature witnesses this attack, it can never again be affected by a duckbunny's snap attack. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

Skills: A duckbunny has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard.  It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered.  It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Duckbunnies use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Swim checks.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2005)

She looks (ahem) good.    

If she were on a cartoon, she'd say "please kill me" like all the good freaks generally do.


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## Olly (Mar 31, 2005)

Yay! Duckbunnies!  

Great work, guys! Now all we need is a tigorilla, a parrodile and a rhinoctopus and we'll have a complete set!


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2005)

heheh...


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2005)

Wanna keep this thread going through April, like last year?

If so, there are many, many, many options remaining:

Armadillephant
Dragonfly Turtle
Moat Cat
Baseball Bugbears
Blink Wooly Mammoth
Buydra
Creeping Crud
Crs'tchen
Death Sheep
Denebian Slime Devil
Dice Lice
DM
Paper Dragon
Pink Dragon
Quazar Dragon
"What's New Dragon"
Droll
Gello Monster
Valley Giant
Chia Golem
Chocolate Golem
Plush Golem
Tim Golem
Green Granule
Grifferee
Gummi Bear
Hippygriff
Hobnoblin
Jolly Rancher
Keebler
Killer Dungeon Master
Lurking Dorito
Magic Munchkin
Man-Drake
Narcisstics
Nonservus
Pepsioid
Pigeontoad
Pizza Slice
Scholar
Tasmanian Devil
Tickler
Umpyr
Unicow
Spider-Horse
Venom Dog
Werebeaver
Weregamer
Werelagomorph


----------



## BOZ (Mar 31, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Wanna keep this thread going through April, like last year?




you mean, when we did all of one?    (tirapheg)

we can do them for a little while longer, if you guys want, but i don't think i'll be able to finish any more by tomorrow.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2005)

Oh, yeah, we just _meant _ to do it all month.

No rush.  I find the idea of the blink wooly mammoth strangely intriguing, but a unicow is always welcome.   If someone else would like to pick one, that would be even better.


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## Krishnath (Mar 31, 2005)

Very well, I pick the hobnoblin.


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2005)

keep in mind, i don't really want to do anything that is simply a parody and has nothing (even something minimal and silly) to offer someone's campaign besides a laugh.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> keep in mind, i don't really want to do anything that is simply a parody and has nothing (even something minimal and silly) to offer someone's campaign besides a laugh.




Aww, come on...a lurking dorito and pepsioid offer sustenance and refreshment, respectively.


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2005)

i'll pretend i didn't hear that.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2005)

Looking through the Dragon archive, it appears that those from Dragon #156 have the most non-humorous value.   These include the blink wooly mammoth, death sheep, gello monster, killer spruce, man-drake, paper dragon, pidgeontoad, pink dragon, tickler, tin golem, unicow, and werelagamorph (were-hare).

The death sheep is actually kinda cool and dangerous.


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2005)

we can start with the good-old blink wooly mammoth.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2005)

Sweet.  It should go fast...start with the wooly mammoth stats from Frostburn, sprinkle in some blink dog abilities, and top it with some cinnamon.


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2005)

Blink Wooly Mammoth
Created by: Sharon Jenkins 

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subarctic plains
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Herd
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
TREASURE: Tusks (good luck!)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 15
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 (2 tusks, 1 trunk constriction, 2 forefeet)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16/2-16/2-12/2-12-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Blinking
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: L (14' tall at shoulder)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 12,000

These otherwise normal mammoths blink in and out at random when attacked, using a limited form of teleportation as do blink dogs (see Monstrous Compendium, "Dogs"). They will blink on a roll of 5 or better on 1d12, with a range of up to 60', and will reappear as per a 1d12 roll: 1 = in front of opponent; 2 = shield (or left) front flank; 3 = unshielded (or right) front flank; 4-8 = behind opponent; 9-12 = on top of opponent. If a blink mammoth appears directly above its opponent, the victim is crushed for 6-36 hp damage. All of his equipment must save vs. crushing blow, and the victim must save vs. wands to avoid being knocked unconscious for 2-12 rounds. Only one blink mammoth will "drop in on" a victim at a time. Additionally, any victim so struck must make a dexterity check on 4d6 to avoid being knocked down, thus giving the blink mammoths a +2 to-hit bonus if the victim fails to get initiative to stand up.
The heavy tusks of these mammoths have 150% of the weight and value of elephants' tusks, being worth 1d6 × 150 gp each, or about 6 gp per pound. Getting the tusks, of course, is a problem.


some preliminary stats for the blink wooly mammoth:

*Blink Wooly Mammoth*
Huge? Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 15d10 (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-X size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+X
Attack: 
Full Attack: 2 gores +X melee (2d8+X), trunk +X melee (2d6+X), 2 stamps +X melee (2d6+X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: Blink, constrict X, crush, improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 3, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 18
Feats: 6

Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-16)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None (tusks)
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 16-30 HD (Huge?); 31-45 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---


COMBAT

Constrict (Ex): A blink wooly mammoth deals X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a blink wooly mammoth must hit with its trunk attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.


Dragon Magazine #156 ("Not Necessarily the Monstrous Compendium," April 1990, Sharon Jenkins).


----------



## Olly (Apr 1, 2005)

Aren't you chaps forgetting something? What about the vulturehound?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 1, 2005)

forgetting what now? http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=764


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

Here are the essentials from the wooly mammoth from Frostburn:

Huge
14 HD
Speed: 40 ft. 
+10 natural armor
Attack: Gore (2d10+18)
Full Attack: Slam (2d6+12) and 2 stamps (2d6+6) or gore (2d10+18)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, toss, trample 2d8+18
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 8, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +11
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (4-16)


----------



## BOZ (Apr 5, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here are the essentials from the wooly mammoth from Frostburn:




cool…

we can lift the ability scores straight from that mammoth.   guess I will go with Huge for the size too.

now, in 2E blink dogs and the blink spell worked a lot different than they do now:



			
				Second Edition Player’s Handbook said:
			
		

> *Blink*
> (Alteration)
> 
> Range: 0			Components: V, S
> ...




 You’ll notice there that the spell works more like a teleportation effect than as a shifting between the Material and Ethereal planes (though that is apparently the medium for the teleportation).  I propose we give the mammoth the blink power the way the blink dog has it, for consistency, but to keep the comedic effect I think we should add a sort of power that randomly teleports the ephelunt.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> You’ll notice there that the spell works more like a teleportation effect than as a shifting between the Material and Ethereal planes (though that is apparently the medium for the teleportation).  I propose we give the mammoth the blink power the way the blink dog has it, for consistency, but to keep the comedic effect I think we should add a sort of power that randomly teleports the ephelunt.




Yep.  And the blink dog also has the dimension door ability, which could easily be randomized.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

oh, you’re totally right, and I didn’t even realize that.  

Blink (Su): A blink wooly mammoth can use _blink_ as the spell (caster level Xth), and can evoke or end the effect as a free action.



			
				Dragon 156 said:
			
		

> They will blink on a roll of 5 or better on 1d12, with a range of up to 60’, and will reappear as per a 1d12 roll: 1 = in front of opponent; 2 = shield (or left) front flank; 3 = unshielded (or right) front flank; 4-8 = behind opponent; 9-12 = on top of opponent.




here’s the fun part.  

Random Teleport (Su): In any round that a blink wooly mammoth uses its blink ability, there is a 75% chance that it will automatically teleport, as dimension door (caster level Xth), as a free action at the end of its turn.  The ability affects only the blink wooly mammoth, which never appears within a solid object.  The mammoth will reappear up to 60 feet away from its original position (distance determined randomly), as will reappear as per the result of a 1d12 roll: 1 = in front of opponent; 2 = shield (or left) front flank; 3 = unshielded (or right) front flank; 4-8 = behind opponent; 9-12 = on top of opponent.

Well, hmm, that last part will need to be changed due to the removal of facing rules.  Got any ideas?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> oh, you’re totally right, and I didn’t even realize that.
> 
> Blink (Su): A blink wooly mammoth can use _blink_ as the spell (caster level Xth), and can evoke or end the effect as a free action.




The blink dog has a caster level equal to twice its HD, which won't really work in this case.  How about just making it equal to its HD?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> here’s the fun part.
> 
> Random Teleport (Su): In any round that a blink wooly mammoth uses its blink ability, there is a 75% chance that it will automatically teleport, as dimension door (caster level Xth), as a free action at the end of its turn.  The ability affects only the blink wooly mammoth, which never appears within a solid object.  The mammoth will reappear up to 60 feet away from its original position (distance determined randomly), as will reappear as per the result of a 1d12 roll: 1 = in front of opponent; 2 = shield (or left) front flank; 3 = unshielded (or right) front flank; 4-8 = behind opponent; 9-12 = on top of opponent.
> 
> Well, hmm, that last part will need to be changed due to the removal of facing rules.  Got any ideas?




That I do.  How about using the rules for splash (formerly grenadelike) weapons, but add the bit for above the opponent?

Essentially:  1 being the closest point of the opponents's space to the blink mammoth's current position, 2 through 8 counting clockwise around the opponent, and 9-12 directly above the opponent.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> The blink dog has a caster level equal to twice its HD, which won't really work in this case. How about just making it equal to its HD?




that’ll work – same for the teleportation effect then also.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That I do. How about using the rules for splash (formerly grenadelike) weapons, but add the bit for above the opponent?
> 
> Essentially: 1 being the closest point of the opponents's space to the blink mammoth's current position, 2 through 8 counting clockwise around the opponent, and 9-12 directly above the opponent.




not bad.    let me see what I can do with that… (borrowing a bit from the feystag)

The mammoth will reappear a random distance from its original space, up to 60 feet away.  The mammoth can reappear on the ground, or in the air.  To determine where it reappears, roll 1d12; if the result is 1-8, consult the "Missing With a Thrown Weapon" diagram on page 158 of the Player's Handbook. If the result is 9-12, the mammoth reappears directly above an opponent.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that’ll work – same for the teleportation effect then also.




Sounds good.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> not bad.    let me see what I can do with that… (borrowing a bit from the feystag)
> 
> The mammoth will reappear a random distance from its original space, up to 60 feet away.  The mammoth can reappear on the ground, or in the air.  To determine where it reappears, roll 1d12; if the result is 1-8, consult the "Missing With a Thrown Weapon" diagram on page 158 of the Player's Handbook. If the result is 9-12, the mammoth reappears directly above an opponent.




Should we give it a crush attack, or something similar, should it appear avove an opponent?


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

yes.    (does the part i wrote above look good?)

If a blink mammoth appears directly above its opponent, the victim is crushed for 6-36 hp damage. All of his equipment must save vs. crushing blow, and the victim must save vs. wands to avoid being knocked unconscious for 2-12 rounds. Only one blink mammoth will “drop in on” a victim at a time. Additionally, any victim so struck must make a dexterity check on 4d6 to avoid being knocked down, thus giving the blink mammoths a +2 to-hit bonus if the victim fails to get initiative to stand up.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

Yep.  What you wrote looks good.

I'd prefer the standard crush ability to the crushing equipment/unconsciousness of the original.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

just a straight up dragon-style crush attack then?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

Yep.  That's what I was thinking.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

though silly, it actually makes a pretty badass creature.  

*Blink Wooly Mammoth*
Huge Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 15d10+105 (187 hp) 
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-2 size, -1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+35
Attack: 
Full Attack: 2 gores +25 melee (2d8+12), trunk slam +20 melee (2d6+6), and 2 stamps +20 melee (2d6+6)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+6, crush, improved grab
Special Qualities: Blink, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, random teleport, scent
Saves: Fort +16 Ref +8 Will +6
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 8, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: 18 (Listen 9, Spot 9?)
Feats: 6 (regular wooly mammoth: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack)

Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-16)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 16-30 HD (Huge); 31-45 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---

_Covered in brown, shaggy fur, this elephantlike creature has two huge, curving tusks and towers almost 15 feet tall._

The blink wooly mammnoth is a creature that somehow diverged from a normal animal of the exact same type (see Frostburn).  No one knows how it gained the power to blink in and out of existence.  Other than its strange power, the blink wooly mammoth is essentially the same as normal wooly mammoths.  Its tusks are heavier than a normal elephant’s, making its ivory very valuable (about 6 gp per pound).

COMBAT
A blink wooly mammoth fights in the same manner as other mammoths and elephants, except for its ability to blink like a blink dog, and its inexplicable tendency to teleport every which way.  They are not usually aggressive, unless stalked or threatened.  Hunters often seek to procure the tusks of one of these creatures, but this is hardly an easy task.

Constrict (Ex): A blink wooly mammoth deals automatic trunk slam damage with a successful grapple check.

Crush (Ex): A falling blink wooly mammoth can land on opponents three (?) or more sizes smaller than itself as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the mammoth's body. Each creature in the affected area must succeed on a DC 24 Reflex save or be pinned, automatically taking X points of bludgeoning damage. The save DC is Constitution-based. Thereafter, if the mammoth chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. While pinned, the opponent takes crush damage each round.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a blink wooly mammoth must hit with its trunk slam attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Blink (Su): A blink wooly mammoth can use _blink_ as the spell (caster level 15th), and can evoke or end the effect as a free action.

Random Teleport (Su): In any round that a blink wooly mammoth uses its blink ability, there is a 75% chance that it will automatically teleport, as dimension door (caster level 15th), as a free action at the end of its turn.  The ability affects only the blink wooly mammoth, which never appears within a solid object.  The mammoth will reappear a random distance from its original space, up to 60 feet away.  The mammoth can reappear on the ground, or in the air.  To determine where it reappears, roll 1d12; if the result is 1-8, consult the "Missing With a Thrown Weapon" diagram on page 158 of the Player's Handbook. If the result is 9-12, the mammoth reappears directly above an opponent.

Dragon Magazine #156 ("Not Necessarily the Monstrous Compendium," April 1990, Sharon Jenkins).


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> though silly, it actually makes a pretty badass creature.




That it does.   Now picture this...blink wooly mammoths as mounts!    

(But seriously...the wooly mammoth has that section).    

Attack:  Gore +25 melee (2d8+12) 

Skills:  Listen 9, Spot 9 sounds good.

Feats: Go with the regular wooly mammoth feats (Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack) and one of the blink dog's (Iron Will).

Challenge Rating: The blink dog is only 1 CR higher than the riding dog upon which it seems based.  So perhaps 1 higher than the standard wooly mammoth, giving it CR 10?

The blink woolly mammoth stands 15 feet tall at the shoulder, weighs between 9 and 11 tons, and has tusks roughly 15 feet long.

Also from woolly mammoth:

Toss (Ex): Woolly mammoths vigorously shake any creature caught in their tusks and fling it in a random direction. Resolve the toss as a bull rush maneuver (+20 check modifier), except that there is no attack of opportunity, since the woolly mammoth has already grabbed its foe when it tries to toss the victim. The woolly mammoth does not need to move with its foe in order to to throw its foe more than 5 feet. If the tossed victim beats the woolly mammoth's bull rush check, he remains in his current square with no ill effects and is not grappled any longer. Tossed victims take impact damage on landing as if they had fallen a distance equal to the distance they were tossed.

Trample (Ex): As a full-round action, a woolly mammoth can move up to twice its speed and literally run over Large or smaller creatures. This attack deals 2d8+18 points of damage. Trampled opponents can make attacks of opportunity against the woolly mammoth at a -4 penalty. If they do not make attacks of opportunity, trample opponents can attempt a DC 29 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

yeah, i guess we can toss all of that in there.  

how much damage should the crush and constrict attacks do?

should we allow the crush to affect creatures bigger than "three or more sizes smaller than itself"?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

Hmmm...I thought I could look to the woolly mammoth, or the mastodon, or the elephant, or the dire elephant, for inspiration on constrict damage, but alas none of these pachyderms have such an ability.   :\ 

I'd let it crush up to one size smaller, or it would just get weird when it blinks above 'em.  Alternatively, we could just state that it can immediately trample them, and drop crush altogether.

If we do stick with crush, it looks like crush damage equals bite damage for a given size (at least for dragons), so how about 2d6 (normal bite damage for a Huge creature).  It also gets 1 and 1/2 Str bonus (+18 in this case).


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

i think the auto-trample will do.    plus, it makes sense.

constrict damage can just be trunk slam damage, plus 1 1/2 Str.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2005)

That'll work.

How's this?

Training a Blink Wooly Mammoth

Only the truly brave and reckless use blink woolly mammoths as mounts or pack animals. Training a blink woolly mammoth must begin with a young animal; adults rarely cooperate and will starve themselves rather than submit to training. Training a young blink woolly mammoth requires six weeks and a successful DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding a blink woolly mammoth requires an exotic saddle or howdah, which includes a prod that the animal can feel through its fur and its thick hide. A blink woolly mammoth can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack except with a lance or a missle weapon.

A trained blink woolly mammoth can take itself, its rider, and an amount of gear up to its maximum load along when using its blink and random teleportation abilities.  However, its rider must succeed on a DC 20 Ride check or be left behind, landing prone in the space previously occupied by the mammoth.  This can be especially dangerous should the mammoth blink, then reappear on the fallen rider.

Carrying Capacity: A light load for a blink woolly mammoth is up to 5,592 pounds; a medium load, 5,593-11,184 pounds; and a heavy load, 11,185-16,776 pounds. A blink woolly mammoth can drag 40 tons.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2005)

i'm glad you typed that up, because i really didn't want to.  

ok, have a look at the whole package one more time before i post it:

*Blink Wooly Mammoth*
Huge Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 15d10+105 (187 hp) 
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-2 size, -1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+35
Attack: Gore +25 melee (2d8+12)
Full Attack: 2 gores +25 melee (2d8+12), trunk slam +23 melee (2d6+6), and 2 stamps +23 melee (2d6+6)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+6, improved grab, toss, trample 2d8+18
Special Qualities: Blink, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, random teleport, scent
Saves: Fort +16 Ref +8 Will +8
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 8, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +12
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack

Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-16)
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 16-30 HD (Huge); 31-45 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---

_Covered in brown, shaggy fur, this elephantlike creature has two huge, curving tusks and towers over a human._

The blink wooly mammoth is a creature that somehow diverged from a normal animal of the exact same type (see Frostburn).  No one knows how it gained the power to blink in and out of existence.  Other than its strange power, the blink wooly mammoth is essentially the same as normal wooly mammoths.  Its tusks are heavier than a normal elephant’s, making its ivory very valuable (about 6 gp per pound).

A blink wooly mammoth stands 15 feet tall at the shoulder, weighs between 9 and 11 tons, and has tusks roughly 15 feet long.

COMBAT
A blink wooly mammoth fights in the same manner as other mammoths and elephants, except for its ability to blink like a blink dog, and its inexplicable tendency to teleport every which way.  They are not usually aggressive, unless stalked or threatened.  Hunters often seek to procure the tusks of one of these creatures, but this is hardly an easy task.

Constrict (Ex): A blink wooly mammoth deals automatic trunk slam damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a blink wooly mammoth must hit with its trunk slam attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

A blink wooly mammoth can also hit a Large or smaller foe with a gore attack.  If it gets a hold, it tosses its opponent.

Toss (Ex): Blink wooly mammoths vigorously shake any creature caught in their tusks and fling it in a random direction. Resolve the toss as a bull rush maneuver (+20 check modifier), except that there is no attack of opportunity, since the blink wooly mammoth has already grabbed its foe when it tries to toss the victim. The blink wooly mammoth does not need to move with its foe in order to throw its foe more than 5 feet. If the tossed victim beats the blink wooly mammoth's bull rush check, he remains in his current square with no ill effects and is not grappled any longer. Tossed victims take impact damage on landing as if they had fallen a distance equal to the distance they were tossed.

Trample (Ex): As a full-round action, a blink wooly mammoth can move up to twice its speed and literally run over Large or smaller creatures. This attack deals 2d8+18 points of damage. Trampled opponents can make attacks of opportunity against the blink wooly mammoth at a -4 penalty. If they do not make attacks of opportunity, trample opponents can attempt a DC 29 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Blink (Su): A blink wooly mammoth can use _blink_ as the spell (caster level 15th), and can evoke or end the effect as a free action.

Random Teleport (Su): In any round that a blink wooly mammoth uses its blink ability, there is a 75% chance that it will automatically teleport, as dimension door (caster level 15th), as a free action at the end of its turn.  The ability affects only the blink wooly mammoth, which never appears within a solid object.  The blink wooly mammoth will reappear a random distance from its original space, up to 60 feet away.  The blink wooly mammoth can reappear on the ground, or in the air.  To determine where it reappears, roll 1d12; if the result is 1-8, consult the "Missing With a Thrown Weapon" diagram on page 158 of the Player's Handbook. If the result is 9-12, the blink wooly mammoth reappears directly above an opponent and can make a trample attack against that target as a free action without having to make a charge attack.

Training a Blink Wooly Mammoth 
Only the truly brave and reckless use blink woolly mammoths as mounts or pack animals. Training a blink woolly mammoth must begin with a young animal; adults rarely cooperate and will starve themselves rather than submit to training. Training a young blink woolly mammoth requires six weeks and a successful DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding a blink woolly mammoth requires an exotic saddle or howdah, which includes a prod that the animal can feel through its fur and its thick hide. A blink woolly mammoth can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack except with a lance or a missile weapon. 

A trained blink woolly mammoth can take itself, its rider, and an amount of gear up to its maximum load along when using its blink and random teleportation abilities. However, its rider must succeed on a DC 20 Ride check or be left behind, landing prone in the space previously occupied by the mammoth. This can be especially dangerous should the mammoth blink, then reappear on the fallen rider. 

Carrying Capacity: A light load for a blink woolly mammoth is up to 5,592 pounds; a medium load, 5,593-11,184 pounds; and a heavy load, 11,185-16,776 pounds. A blink woolly mammoth can drag 40 tons.

Dragon Magazine #156 ("Not Necessarily the Monstrous Compendium," April 1990, Sharon Jenkins).


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2005)

I think that's it.  I don't notice anything missing.  Post away.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2007)

We skipped this last year, so I think we should do two to make up for it this year.    

Maybe the chia and plush golems?


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## Gothenem (Apr 2, 2007)

CHIA GOLEM!!!

Spread the seeds and watch it grow!

Ch-ch-ch-chia!


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2007)

BOZ has given his blessings for us to proceed, so it shall be!

Chia Golem
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Soil, water, compost
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d4/2d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (6’–8’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 1,400

Chia golems span the full range from beautiful, elegant topiary creations to hideous, diseased, overgrown plantings. On royal estates, one might detect chia golems in the form of giant rabbits, mice, lions, camels, dragons, or even uniformed armed guards. Near an abandoned wizard’s tower or in the courtyards of evil temples, chia golems may be present in the form of vampires, werebeasts, minotaurs, various giants, insects, or other horrid creatures.

A chia golem is a terra cotta or other baked stone sculpture that serves as a surface for plant growth. The chia golem is typically soaked in water and spread with seeds to await sprouting.  They have a truly bizarre appearance until the plants have fully matured.

Chia golems may be planted with nearly any type of seeds, such as grass, resulting in a thick green coat; a creeping flowering plant such as phlox or alyssum, resulting in a fluffy pastel mat; a poisonous plant such as poison ivy or oxalis; or a vine plant such as morning glory, ivy, or grape (vines may cause damage in melee; see Combat). A combination of plants may be used to achieve a particular aesthetic effect.  

No one has ever been known to have created a chia golem for himself; all known examples have been received as gifts.  

Chia golems typically range in size from 6’–8’. Smaller golems are somehow unable to maintain the enchantments.

The creation of a chia golem begins with a sculpture in the form of the desired creature. The sculpture requires at least 1,000 Ibs. of material. The material must be porous when it is
hard to allow for rooting and water seepage; thus, a golem could not be sculpted of granite, but it could be sculpted of limestone or of clay and then baked.

Combat: Chia golems act primarily as sentries. They may be stationed in a particular place to stand guard or they may be ordered to creep slowly around the perimeter of an estate to
keep watch. Their lack of intelligence and capability for imperceptibly slow movement makes them ideal for this type of watch duty.

A chia golem attacks with both fists for 2d4 hp damage each. If the golem is planted with a vine whose tendrils might slap at an opponent, +1 hp is added to each fist strike. If the
creator of the golem chose to plant it with a thorny or otherwise noxious plant, other bonuses may be assessed as well.

Chia golems are immune to sleep, hold, and paralysis spells.  Cold-based and heat-based spells may wither the foliage of a chia golem but cause normal damage. Spells such as entangle, warp wood, and plant growth have no effect. Hold plant and antiplant shell work on chia golems as per the spell descriptions.  Transmute rock to mud destroys a chia golem, but the plants will live in the resulting mud as long as conditions are right.

Habitat/Society: Chia golems may be planted with perennial plants and kept outdoors year round or, if planted with more tender plants, may be moved indoors with the onset of cold
weather. Chia golems may also live indoors year round.  The golems, which are hollow, must contain a small amount of soil at all times, and they must be watered according to the
requirements of the particular plant. A quantity of compost must also be added to the golem about once per month.

Ecology: Like all golems, the chia golem is a manufactured creature and has no place in nature. They are created only through magical means.

A priest of at least 11th level can create a chia golem through extensive ritual, preparation of the terra cotta figure, and use of the following spells: plant growth, prayer, commune,
and animate object.

A wizard of at least 14th level must cast fabricate, geas, charm plants, and limited wish following the construction of the baked clay figure and extensive preparatory rituals.

A druid of at least 14th level may create a chia golem using animate rock and plant growth and a month-long process of fertility and other rituals that must culminate on the eve of the
winter solstice.

Originally appeared in Dragon #228, "The Dragon's Worstiary: Golems", Anne Brown, April 1996.


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 2, 2007)

Do you think we should use the new stat block for these guys, since it's pretty much a joke?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Do you think we should use the new stat block for these guys, since it's pretty much a joke?




 

No, because we actually might put them in the CC, and it's easier to enter them if they have the same format.   They might be usable in some way.   Heck, we put the blink wooly mammoth and duckbunny in there!


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## Shroomy (Apr 2, 2007)

I for one would make the "chia golem" a template that could be added to any construct.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> I for one would make the "chia golem" a template that could be added to any construct.




Hmmm...to me, it looks more like a template that could be applied to plants.  It seems the core construct needs to be composed of "material must be porous when it is hard to allow for rooting and water seepage; thus, a golem could not be sculpted of granite, but it could be sculpted of limestone or of clay and then baked".  The different plants used have different effects.

Other opinions?


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2007)

Chia golem as a template added to plants has possibilities... tendriculos chia golem, anyone?  

Seriously (is it possible to be serious about this?) though, how many mundane plants are there (like grass, ivy, etc) that we could apply this to?  Maybe it makes more sense to list the particular bonuses that some number of plants give to a basic chia golem.


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## Gothenem (Apr 3, 2007)

I have to agree with freyar. Maybe add some variants with more powerful/interesting plant varieties, like a chia assassin vine golem or something.


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## JiCi (Apr 3, 2007)

Send in the Clowns ?

Wasn't there a clown demon in a "slightly updated" epic level handbook from D20 ?

A guy who could choke you with a cream pie, shock you with his hands, burn you with acid and a flower, in addition of being unkillable ?


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Chia golem as a template added to plants has possibilities... tendriculos chia golem, anyone?
> 
> Seriously (is it possible to be serious about this?) though, how many mundane plants are there (like grass, ivy, etc) that we could apply this to?  Maybe it makes more sense to list the particular bonuses that some number of plants give to a basic chia golem.




Good point.  I think we should just stat it up as a standard golem, and allow for variants for different component plants (and possibly materials).

Getting started....

Large Construct
Hit Dice: 8d10+30 (54 hp)
Initiative: X
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
AC: 16 (–1 size, X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+X
Attack: Slam +X melee (X+X)
Full Attack: 2 slams +X melee (X+X)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Component plants
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction ?, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision, plant-reliant
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +3
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9–16 HD (Large); 17–24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

I went with Large since the flesh golem is only 8 feet tall.  If you'd prefer to start at Medium, we can do so.


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> Send in the Clowns ?
> 
> Wasn't there a clown demon in a "slightly updated" epic level handbook from D20 ?
> 
> A guy who could choke you with a cream pie, shock you with his hands, burn you with acid and a flower, in addition of being unkillable ?




Sounds like fun.


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 3, 2007)

I think that would be the clown demon from Mongoose's Epic Bestiary.

I wonder how a chia obliviax golem would work...


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## Gothenem (Apr 3, 2007)

IIRC, the picture was quadrupedal. So 6' tall, but 10 ' long. It would bea large creature, but with a reach of 5 ft.

I'd put Str around 26 and Dex around 10


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Good catch!  It was definitely a quadruped in the picture.

Clay golem is Dex 9.   Should the chia differ?

A straight conversion of its AC brings it to 16.   Clay golem is AC 22, and even the flesh golem is AC 18.  I think we should at least bump it to 19.   Thoughts?



> Cold-based and heat-based spells may wither the foliage of a chia golem but cause normal damage. Spells such as entangle, warp wood, and plant growth have no effect. Hold plant and antiplant shell work on chia golems as per the spell descriptions. Transmute rock to mud destroys a chia golem, but the plants will live in the resulting mud as long as conditions are right.




Hold plant doesn't appear to exist anymore, unless I'm completely missing it.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A chia golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Spells that deal cold or fire damage function normally against chia golems, and appear to wither the component plants.

Antiplant shell and hold plant affects chia golems as if they were plants. 

A transmute rock to mud spell destroys a chia golem unless it succeeds on a saving throw.  The component plants may survive (and possibly even thrive) in the resulting mud as long as conditions are right.


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## Mortis (Apr 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hold plant doesn't appear to exist anymore, unless I'm completely missing it.



I don't think you are (it's not in the PHB or the Spell Compendium). Of course, in 3.5 'Hold' spells are mind-affecting which plants are immune to. 

Then again there are the spells - command plants and control plants (both transmutation).

Perhaps the spell diminish plants (and possibly repel wood) could affect chia golems?
[/QUOTE]

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Apr 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> BOZ has given his blessings for us to proceed, so it shall be!




why wouldn't i?  go for it!  

man, i had totally forgotten that we did the blink wooly mammoth...


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I don't think you are (it's not in the PHB or the Spell Compendium). Of course, in 3.5 'Hold' spells are mind-affecting which plants are immune to.
> 
> Then again there are the spells - command plants and control plants (both transmutation).
> 
> Perhaps the spell diminish plants (and possibly repel wood) could affect chia golems?




It appears spells that affect wood were ineffective ("Spells such as entangle, warp wood, and plant growth have no effect"), but we could work in some of those other spells.

I could easily see diminish plants dealing it damage.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> man, i had totally forgotten that we did the blink wooly mammoth...




I'd love to release a herd of those on unsuspecting players.


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 4, 2007)

It should probably also be vulnerable to _blight_ .


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> It should probably also be vulnerable to _blight_ .




Absolutely!  Good catch!


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## Gothenem (Apr 4, 2007)

I am thinking that a Chia Golem could become my Wood WuJen's favourite beastie to create.... I just got Craft Construct.

Yeah, we can bump the AC to 19.  The Dex could drop to 9.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> I am thinking that a Chia Golem could become my Wood WuJen's favourite beastie to create.... I just got Craft Construct.




Sounds like fun on the fringe.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Updating...

Large Construct
Hit Dice: 8d10+30 (54 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
AC: 19 (–1 size, -1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Slam +13 melee (X+8)
Full Attack: 2 slams +13 melee (X+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Component plants
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction ?, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision, plant-reliant
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 9, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9–16 HD (Large); 17–24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A chia golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Spells that deal cold or fire damage function normally against chia golems, and appear to wither the component plants.

Antiplant shell and hold plant affects chia golems as if they were plants. 

A transmute rock to mud spell destroys a chia golem unless it succeeds on a saving throw. The component plants may survive (and possibly even thrive) in the resulting mud as long as conditions are right.

A blight spell affects the chia golem as if it were a plant, but deals only half damage (quarter damage on a successful save).

A diminish plants spell....

Should plant growth heal it (at least partially)?
I could easily see diminish plants dealing it damage.


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## Gothenem (Apr 4, 2007)

Agreed. I would say a diminish plants spell deals 3d8 points of damage to it, while a plant growth spell heals 3d8 points of damage


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

That sounds doable.

Thoughts on the slam damage?  Clay deals 2d10, flesh 2d8.  Its original 2d4 seems a tad weak.


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## Gothenem (Apr 4, 2007)

2d2 or 2d8 seems more appropriate. I would go with 2d6, as it does have a decent strength score. It should only have one slam attack though (as it is not humanoid, it does not have 2 arms) and thus gain 1½ strength, which should make up for any deficiency it lacks from not having the full 2d8 or 2d10.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Ironically, it is one of the few pre-3e golems that had multiple attacks!


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## Gothenem (Apr 4, 2007)

lol, yeah.

I think it should only have the one slam though (from its head).


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## freyar (Apr 5, 2007)

I'm a bit undecided on whether these should get 1 or 2 slams; the original description makes a point of listing some humanoid shapes for them.

For DR, clay golems have DR 10/adamantine and bludgeoning.  I'm not sure if these should be quite as tough.  And, since they're hollow, I'd almost expect bludgeoning to be enough to overcome DR all by itself.  We could go adamantine or bludgeoning or perhaps another easier alternative could be DR 10/magic and bludgeoning.


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## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

DR/adamantine or bludgeoning would work.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> DR/adamantine or bludgeoning would work.




I like this.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I'm a bit undecided on whether these should get 1 or 2 slams; the original description makes a point of listing some humanoid shapes for them.




Thinking more about the slams, and rereading the original text, I think we should differentiate between a bipedal and quadrupedal chia golem.   The bipedal form should get 2 slams like other golems, while the quadrupedal form could have one slam, or something resembling natural weapons of the form it resembles (see the equine golem, brass steed, and ironwyrm golems for examples).  We could just arbitrarily pick one version as the default, and state in the text that other forms may be created, resulting in different attack forms.  Thoughts?


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## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

Agreed. For our quad form, we should probably go for the Turtle-ish picture we have in the Dragon Magazine.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Agreed. For our quad form, we should probably go for the Turtle-ish picture we have in the Dragon Magazine.




Sounds good.


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## freyar (Apr 5, 2007)

I like this approach for the attacks also.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Updating...

Large Construct
Hit Dice: 8d10+30 (54 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
AC: 19 (–1 size, -1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d6+8)
Full Attack: 2 slams +13 melee (2d6+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Component plants
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine or bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision, plant-reliant
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 9, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9–16 HD (Large); 17–24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

The above stat block assumes a bipedal chia golem.  For a quadrupedal golem, make the following changes:

Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d6+12)*
Full Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d6+12)*
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.

*The DM may wish to substitute different natural weapons based on the golem's form, such as 2 claw attacks for a tiger-shaped chia golem.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A chia golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Spells that deal cold or fire damage function normally against chia golems, and appear to wither the component plants.

Antiplant shell and hold plant affects chia golems as if they were plants. 

A transmute rock to mud spell destroys a chia golem unless it succeeds on a saving throw. The component plants may survive (and possibly even thrive) in the resulting mud as long as conditions are right.

A blight spell affects the chia golem as if it were a plant, but deals only half damage (quarter damage on a successful save).

A diminish plants spell deals 3d8 points of damage to a chia golem, while a plant growth spell heals it of 3d8 points of damage.


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## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

Looks good so far. 

I'd peg CR around 6


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

> Chia golems may be planted with nearly any type of seeds, such as grass, resulting in a thick green coat; a creeping flowering plant such as phlox or alyssum, resulting in a fluffy pastel mat; a poisonous plant such as poison ivy or oxalis; or a vine plant such as morning glory, ivy, or grape (vines may cause damage in melee; see Combat). A combination of plants may be used to achieve a particular aesthetic effect.






> A chia golem attacks with both fists for 2d4 hp damage each. If the golem is planted with a vine whose tendrils might slap at an opponent, +1 hp is added to each fist strike. If the creator of the golem chose to plant it with a thorny or otherwise noxious plant, other bonuses may be assessed as well.




Component Plants (Su?):  Chia golems may gain additional attacks or abilities depending upon the plants growing within it.   A typical chia golem has 1dX of the following abilities:

_Tendrils (Ex): _  The golem gains X tendrils which are treated as secondary natural weapons with X foot reach.

_Thorns (Ex): _ 

_Venomous Blossoms (Ex): _ 

Particularly powerful chia golems may be created with assassin vines or similar powerful plants growing within.

Other ideas?



> Habitat/Society: Chia golems may be planted with perennial plants and kept outdoors year round or, if planted with more tender plants, may be moved indoors with the onset of cold weather. Chia golems may also live indoors year round. The golems, which are hollow, must contain a small amount of soil at all times, and they must be watered according to the
> requirements of the particular plant. A quantity of compost must also be added to the golem about once per month.




Plant Dependent (Su?):  Although it is a construct, a chia golem is partially composed of living plant matter.  As such, it is more vulnerable to environmental conditions and must constantly provide suitable living conditions for its component plants.   

The golem's creator or controller must perform periodic maintenance on the chia golem.  Its hollow interior is filled with soil which must be replenished periodically (should this be a set amount of time, based on damage sustained, or something else?).   Once per month, compost must be added to the golem to fertilize the plants.   Finally, the plants must be watered based on their normal schedules.

If the component plants are tender non-perennials, the chia golem must avoid temperatures below X degrees or (take damage/be slowed/something else?).


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## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

Component Plants (Ex): Chia golems may gain additional attacks or abilities depending upon the plants growing within it. A typical chia golem has 1d2 of the following abilities:

Tendrils (Ex): The golem gains 1-4 tendrils which are treated as secondary natural weapons with 10 foot reach. These tendrils deal 1d6+4 points of damage and give the Chia golem a +2 circumstance bonus on grapple checks.

Thorns (Ex): The chia golem is covered in thorns. Anyone in a grapple with the chia golem takes 1d6 points of piercing damage per round. In addition anyone attacking the chia golem with unarmed strikes or natural weapons take 1d6 points of piercing damage.

Venomous Blossoms (Ex): There are many brightly colored flowers on the chia golem. As it strikes the flowers release venomous spores. Anyone struck by the chia golem must make a Fortitude save against the poison. The DC for the save is 14, and the poison deals XdX points of (Stat).

Particularly powerful chia golems may be created with assassin vines or similar powerful plants growing within.


Plant Dependent (Ex): Although it is a construct, a chia golem is partially composed of living plant matter. As such, it is more vulnerable to environmental conditions and must constantly provide suitable living conditions for its component plants. 

The golem's creator or controller must perform periodic maintenance on the chia golem. Its hollow interior is filled with soil which must be replenished once every 6 months. Once per month, compost must be added to the golem to fertilize the plants. Finally, the plants must be watered based on their normal schedules. If these are not done, the chia golem takes 1d6 points of damage each day until maintanance is done.

If the component plants are tender non-perennials, the chia golem must avoid temperatures below 40 degrees or is slowed. In areas of Extreme cold (below -40), the chia golem takes 1d6 points of damage every hour.



do these look good?


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Very nice.

How about the painful part?



> The creation of a chia golem begins with a sculpture in the form of the desired creature. The sculpture requires at least 1,000 Ibs. of material. The material must be porous when it is hard to allow for rooting and water seepage; thus, a golem could not be sculpted of granite, but it could be sculpted of limestone or of clay and then baked.






> A priest of at least 11th level can create a chia golem through extensive ritual, preparation of the terra cotta figure, and use of the following spells: plant growth, prayer, commune, and animate object.
> 
> A wizard of at least 14th level must cast fabricate, geas, charm plants, and limited wish following the construction of the baked clay figure and extensive preparatory rituals.
> 
> ...




Construction
A chia golem’s body must be sculpted from at least 1,000 pounds of porous material (to allow for rooting and water seepage), such as limestone or clay.  It is mixed with rare oils and powders worth X gp. Creating the body requires a DC 15 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 15 Craft (pottery) check.

CL 14th?; Craft Construct, animate objects, commune, plant growth, caster must be at least 11th? level; Price X gp; Cost X gp + X XP.


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## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

I would say 

CL 11th; Craft Construct, plant growth, geas/quest, animate objects.

The check and DC's are all good.

I think we should add some sort of note for the month-long ritual that ends at the winter solstice, such as: 

If the creator performs a 30 day long ritual that ends on the winter solstice, the creator does not need to have the Animate Objects spell prerequisite when creating the chia golem.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2007)

Updating...

Large Construct
Hit Dice: 8d10+30 (54 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
AC: 19 (–1 size, -1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d6+8)
Full Attack: 2 slams +13 melee (2d6+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Component plants
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine or bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision, plant dependent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 9, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9–16 HD (Large); 17–24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

The above stat block assumes a bipedal chia golem. For a quadrupedal golem, make the following changes:

Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d6+12)*
Full Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d6+12)*
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.

*The DM may wish to substitute different natural weapons based on the golem's form, such as 2 claw attacks for a tiger-shaped chia golem.

*Component Plants (Ex):* Chia golems may gain additional attacks or abilities depending upon the plants growing within it. A typical chia golem has 1d2 of the following abilities:

_Tendrils (Ex):_ The golem gains 1-4 tendrils which are treated as secondary natural weapons with 10 foot reach. These tendrils deal 1d6+4 points of damage and give the Chia golem a +2 circumstance bonus on grapple checks.

_Thorns (Ex):_ The chia golem is covered in thorns. Anyone in a grapple with the chia golem takes 1d6 points of piercing damage per round. In addition anyone attacking the chia golem with unarmed strikes or natural weapons take 1d6 points of piercing damage.

_Venomous Blossoms (Ex):_ There are many brightly colored flowers on the chia golem. As it strikes the flowers release venomous spores. Anyone struck by the chia golem must make a Fortitude save against the poison. The DC for the save is 14, and the poison deals XdX points of (Stat).

Particularly powerful chia golems may be created with assassin vines or similar powerful plants growing within.

*Immunity to Magic (Ex):* A chia golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Spells that deal cold or fire damage function normally against chia golems, and appear to wither the component plants.

Antiplant shell and hold plant affects chia golems as if they were plants. 

A transmute rock to mud spell destroys a chia golem unless it succeeds on a saving throw. The component plants may survive (and possibly even thrive) in the resulting mud as long as conditions are right.

A blight spell affects the chia golem as if it were a plant, but deals only half damage (quarter damage on a successful save).

A diminish plants spell deals 3d8 points of damage to a chia golem, while a plant growth spell heals it of 3d8 points of damage.

*Plant Dependent (Ex): * Although it is a construct, a chia golem is partially composed of living plant matter. As such, it is more vulnerable to environmental conditions and must constantly provide suitable living conditions for its component plants. 

The golem's creator or controller must perform periodic maintenance on the chia golem. Its hollow interior is filled with soil which must be replenished once every 6 months. Once per month, compost must be added to the golem to fertilize the plants. Finally, the plants must be watered based on their normal schedules. If these are not done, the chia golem takes 1d6 points of damage each day until maintanance is done.

If the component plants are tender non-perennials, the chia golem must avoid temperatures below 40 degrees or is slowed. In areas of Extreme cold (below -40), the chia golem takes 1d6 points of damage every hour.

*Construction*
A chia golem’s body must be sculpted from at least 1,000 pounds of porous material (to allow for rooting and water seepage), such as limestone or clay. It is mixed with rare oils and powders worth X gp. Creating the body requires a DC 15 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 15 Craft (pottery) check.

CL 11th; Craft Construct, animate objects, geas/quest, plant growth, caster must be at least 11th level; Price X gp; Cost X gp + X XP.

If the creator performs a 30 day long ritual that ends on the winter solstice, the creator does not need the animate objects spell prerequisite when creating a chia golem.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2007)

I loathe figuring out construction costs for golems, so how about we copy off another CR 6 golem and call it a day?

Fang Golem (MMIV):  Price 15,000 gp; Cost 8,000 gp + 580 XP.   500 gp for special oils.


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## Shroomy (Apr 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I loathe figuring out construction costs for golems, so how about we copy off another CR 6 golem and call it a day?
> 
> Fang Golem (MMIV):  Price 15,000 gp; Cost 8,000 gp + 580 XP.   500 gp for special oils.




Is there a formula for determining construct costs?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Is there a formula for determining construct costs?




Yep, but it can be painful...

Construct Creation

Source: Rules of the Game - Constructs (Part Two)

Creating a fairly elaborate construct such as a golem or shield guardian requires the Craft Construct feat (described on page 303 in the Monster Manual). The process of construct creation is just like creating a magic item. The process is described in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide and in Rules of the Game: Making Magic Items. Here are the highlights:

Prerequisites: A construct has a list of prerequisites, which is included in the creation section of the construct's description. A list of prerequisites might include one or more feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, skills, and race or kind.

A construct's creator must have a caster level high enough to cast any prerequisite spell the construct has.

In most cases, the construct's creator must provide any required spells personally; you can't have another character cast them for you, but you can use a scroll that you activate yourself.

Cost: A construct's description (usually) includes a market price and a cost to create the construct. To calculate the creation cost for a construct, subtract the cost of any special materials the construct requires from the market price. Divide the remainder in half. The result you get represents the basic materials you must buy to build the construct. This basic cost includes the cost of the construct's body. Most construct descriptions include a separate cost for the body to allow DMs and players to use the Craft skill to create the body.

The total cost to create the construct is the basic cost plus the cost of special materials. For example, a construct with a market price of 100,000 gp and 10,000 gp worth of required special materials has a creation cost of 55,000 gp. (Here's the math: 100,000 - 10,000 = 90,000; then 90,000/2=45,000; then 45,000 + 10,000 = 55,000 gp.) 

Making the construct also requires experience points equal to 1/25th the market price minus the cost of special materials. The construct from the previous example has an XP cost of 3,600.

You can make an advanced version of a construct (one that has more Hit Dice than shown in the creature description). Each extra Hit Die adds 5,000 gp to the construct's market price. If you add enough Hit Dice to increase the construct's size, add an extra 50,000 gp to the construct's market price.

Time: For every 1,000 gp in a construct's market price (or fraction of 1,000 gp), the creator must spend one day working on the construct. The construct from the previous example would require 100 days of work.

Environment: Creating a construct requires peace, quiet, and comfort, just as preparing spells does (even when the creator doesn't need to prepare spells). Any location a character uses for construct creation also must have enough space to hold any special equipment and materials the construct requires.

Equipment: Some constructs also require a specially equipped laboratory similar to an alchemist's lab. The cost for setting up such a laboratory (if it is required at all) is given in the construct's description. The cost for a lab is not included in the construct's market price or base price. Once you set up a lab, you can use it over and over again.


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## Gothenem (Apr 7, 2007)

It still doesn't really let us know how much a construct costs if it doesn't have the cost listed in its description (ie. we are creating the monster from scratch).

At least, not really.

How about 500 gp for special soils and seeds for the golem??

And yeah, lets just copy the other golem.

My Wu Jen is already preparing to build his Chia Golem. (A Chia Foo Lion)


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> How about 500 gp for special soils and seeds for the golem?




Sounds good.



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> My Wu Jen is already preparing to build his Chia Golem. (A Chia Foo Lion)




That is awesome!


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

For the venomous blossoms, how about 1d4 Dex for both primary and secondary damage?  I'm thinking along the lines of poison ivy, where the venom causes a painful rash, hindering movement.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

Taking a stab at flavor text...

_This terra cotta sculpture takes the form of an 8-foot-tall human warrior.  Green vines grow through holes throughout its surface, giving it an almost shaggy appearance.  It smells of wet soil, compost, and vegetation._

Chia golems are bizarre constructs that house a number of living plants, incorporating them into their appearance and function.  Most often constructed from terra cotta or baked stone, a chia golem can be created from any porous material.   Once sculpted, the body is filled with soil and seeds, and becomes a form of animated flowerpot.

Chia golems can be shaped into a variety of forms, from humanoid warriors to animals, giant vermin, or even dragons.   Crafting a chia golem is an art form for many spellcasters.  The selection of plants can result in a beautiful, moving piece of topiary, or it can be planted to be a frightening, venomous monstrosity.

Chia golems may be planted with nearly any type of seeds, usually grasses, creeping flowering plants, vines.  Different types of plants may be combined for aesthetic reasons.  Some of the largest chia golems have been filled with seeds from monstrous plants such as assassin vines.

Although it is possible to create a chia golem for oneself, the traditions of most cultures familiar with their creation manufacture them as gifts for others.

A chia golem golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise. It stands between 8 and 10 feet tall and weighs around 550 pounds.


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## Gothenem (Apr 9, 2007)

Looks good.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

Updating...

Chia Golem
Large Construct
Hit Dice: 8d10+30 (54 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
AC: 19 (–1 size, -1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d6+8)
Full Attack: 2 slams +13 melee (2d6+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Component plants
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine or bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision, plant dependent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 9, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9–16 HD (Large); 17–24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

_This terra cotta sculpture takes the form of an 8-foot-tall human warrior. Green vines grow through holes throughout its surface, giving it an almost shaggy appearance. It smells of wet soil, compost, and vegetation._

Chia golems are bizarre constructs that house a number of living plants, incorporating them into their appearance and function. Most often constructed from terra cotta or baked stone, a chia golem can be created from any porous material. Once sculpted, the body is filled with soil and seeds, and becomes a form of animated flowerpot.

Chia golems can be shaped into a variety of forms, from humanoid warriors to animals, giant vermin, or even dragons. Crafting a chia golem is an art form for many spellcasters. The selection of plants can result in a beautiful, moving piece of topiary, or it can be planted to be a frightening, venomous monstrosity.

Chia golems may be planted with nearly any type of seeds, usually grasses, creeping flowering plants, vines. Different types of plants may be combined for aesthetic reasons. Some of the largest chia golems have been filled with seeds from monstrous plants such as assassin vines.

Although it is possible to create a chia golem for oneself, the traditions of most cultures familiar with their creation manufacture them as gifts for others.

A chia golem golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise. It stands between 8 and 10 feet tall and weighs around 550 pounds.

The above stat block assumes a bipedal chia golem. For a quadrupedal golem, make the following changes:

Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d6+12)*
Full Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d6+12)*
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.

*The DM may wish to substitute different natural weapons based on the golem's form, such as 2 claw attacks for a tiger-shaped chia golem.

*Component Plants (Ex):* Chia golems may gain additional attacks or abilities depending upon the plants growing within it. A typical chia golem has 1d2 of the following abilities:

_Tendrils (Ex):_ The golem gains 1-4 tendrils which are treated as secondary natural weapons with 10 foot reach. These tendrils deal 1d6+4 points of damage and give the Chia golem a +2 circumstance bonus on grapple checks.

_Thorns (Ex):_ The chia golem is covered in thorns. Anyone in a grapple with the chia golem takes 1d6 points of piercing damage per round. In addition anyone attacking the chia golem with unarmed strikes or natural weapons take 1d6 points of piercing damage.

_Venomous Blossoms (Ex): _ There are many brightly colored flowers on the chia golem. As it strikes the flowers release venomous spores. Anyone struck by the chia golem must make a DC 14 Fortitude save against the poison. The initial and secondary damage is the same--1d4 points of Dexterity.

Particularly powerful chia golems may be created with assassin vines or similar powerful plants growing within.

*Immunity to Magic (Ex):* A chia golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Spells that deal cold or fire damage function normally against chia golems, and appear to wither the component plants.

Antiplant shell and hold plant affects chia golems as if they were plants. 

A transmute rock to mud spell destroys a chia golem unless it succeeds on a saving throw. The component plants may survive (and possibly even thrive) in the resulting mud as long as conditions are right.

A blight spell affects the chia golem as if it were a plant, but deals only half damage (quarter damage on a successful save).

A diminish plants spell deals 3d8 points of damage to a chia golem, while a plant growth spell heals it of 3d8 points of damage.

*Plant Dependent (Ex):* Although it is a construct, a chia golem is partially composed of living plant matter. As such, it is more vulnerable to environmental conditions and must constantly provide suitable living conditions for its component plants. 

The golem's creator or controller must perform periodic maintenance on the chia golem. Its hollow interior is filled with soil which must be replenished once every 6 months. Once per month, compost must be added to the golem to fertilize the plants. Finally, the plants must be watered based on their normal schedules. If these are not done, the chia golem takes 1d6 points of damage each day until maintanance is done.

If the component plants are tender non-perennials, the chia golem must avoid temperatures below 40 degrees or is slowed. In areas of Extreme cold (below -40), the chia golem takes 1d6 points of damage every hour.

*Construction*
A chia golem’s body must be sculpted from at least 1,000 pounds of porous material (to allow for rooting and water seepage), such as limestone or clay, and requires specially-prepared soils and seeds worth 500 gp. Creating the body requires a DC 15 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 15 Craft (pottery) check.

CL 11th; Craft Construct, animate objects, geas/quest, plant growth, caster must be at least 11th level; Price 15,000 gp; Cost 8,000 gp + 580 XP.

If the creator performs a 30 day long ritual that ends on the winter solstice, the creator does not need the animate objects spell prerequisite when creating a chia golem.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

How's it look?


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## Gothenem (Apr 9, 2007)

Looks good. We can start shipping out Chia Golems for Mothers day.

Only 15,000 gp. Act now, and we'll include the first 1 HD upgrade for free!!

That's right. For free. A 1,000 gp value, yours free if you act now. Not only that, but we'll also include 10 scrolls of repair light damage, normally a 250 gp value, ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!

So for 15,000 gp you'll get one Chia Golem, with 9 HD and 10 _scrolls of repair light damage_.

This is for a limited time only so act now! Call 1-800-d20-CHIA


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## freyar (Apr 10, 2007)

This looks great.  If I have some spare time later (haha), I'll try adding an assassin vine or archer bush or something.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Next!

Plush Golem
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET:  Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d2/1d2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprise
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (6’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 650


Plush golems are every parents nightmare. They are typically given as gifts to young children, usually by obnoxious aunts or uncles. Plush golems seem like ordinary stuffed animals at first, but eventually reveal their animated state of being to the children who own them. As the children treat their toy animals more and more like live creatures, the parents’ frustration increases as the child insists that the toy be allowed to eat at the dinner table, go along on outings, and take part in other family activities to the nuisance of everyone.

Plush golems are finely crafted stuffed animals and may be made of velvet, cotton, or wool.  They are usually stuffed with cotton batting, but are sometimes partly filled with dried beans.  They may be created in realistic colors to represent a real bear, panda, lion, or tiger, or they may be fabricated into fantastic creatures such as pink elephants, purple rabbits, or lime green monkeys.

Of particular note are plush golems in the form of a large purple-and-green dinosaur. For some unknown reason, these have been seen in great numbers in recent years, and have an affect of aversion and fear in individuals over 12 years of age.  Upon viewing such a creature, persons over 12 must roll a saving throw vs. paralyzation or be struck dumb for 2 rounds.

Also of note are plush golems in the form of a small striped tiger. These are far more rare than the purple dinosaurs.  Children who receive the tigers as gifts suddenly seem to find themselves in more trouble with their parents than normal, find that no amount of cleaning will keep their bedrooms neat, and that they have trouble concentrating on schoolwork.

Combat: Plush golems never attack individuals under 16 years of age. They attack only when provoked or when the children of the household are threatened. They gain the element of surprise, since most adults never suspect the possibility of the creature’s animation. Although they are weak in combat, they often provide enough distraction for a child to escape a dangerous situation.

These creatures are immune to sleep, hold, paralysis, and coldbased spells. They are immune to heat-based spells but suffer normal damage from fire-based spells. Plush golems suffer only half damage from bludgeoning weapons. They instinctively react to the commands of the children who receive them as gifts.

Ecology: Like all golems, the plush golem is a manufactured creature and has no place in nature. They are created only through magical means.

A priest of at least 11th level can create a plush golem through extensive ritual, preparation of the stuffed figure, and use of the following spells: prayer, commune, and animate object.

A wizard of at least 14th level must cast fabricate, geas, and Iimited wish following the construction of the stuffed figure and extensive preparatory rituals.

Originally appeared in Dragon #228, "The Dragon's Worstiary: Golems", Anne Brown, April 1996.


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## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

Ahhh, yes, the dreaded Barney and Hobbs golems....

IIRC the picture is of a teddy bear looking like its ready to rumble.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Ahhh, yes, the dreaded Barney and Hobbs golems....
> 
> IIRC the picture is of a teddy bear looking like its ready to rumble.




Indeed.    

I'm trying to figure out how a small child gets a 6' foot tall construct to the dinner table.


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## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

Calvin and Hobbs.

Maybe it has a growth ability like the Spriggan.
Alternately a shrink ability or "passive state"

I think we may want to deviate from the 2nd-Edition stats a bit. They do seem a bit bland to me. This one may have to be restructured a bit.

On to the basics though.

Medium Construct (6' tall)
5d10 Hit Dice +20 (Medium)

Str 14 - they seem to be fairly strong,but not overly so.
Dex ?? - While Barney sure doesn't seem very dexterous, Hobbs would be able to tackle Calvin and seemed pretty nimble on his feet. I am leaning towards a low Dex though.
Con -
Int - (Although both Barney and Hobbs were intelligent)...
Wis 10
Cha 1    }- Standard Golem Fare

AC 10 - With this AC I would suggest a 10 Dex and no modifiers

Thus AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Those stats look about right.

DR sounds like 10/piercing or slashing.

The julajimus might help with the tiny form/passive state...

Alternate Form (Su): A julajimus can assume the form of any Tiny animal (typically a harmless, cuddly animal). Reverting to its true form is a free action. This ability helps the julajimus lull its victim into a false sense of security before it shifts into its natural form to attack.


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## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

Looks good, let me take a crack at altering that...

Alternate Form (Su): A plush golem can assume the form of any Tiny plush doll, usually a much smaller version of itslef. Reverting to its true form is a free action. This ability helps the plush golem be loved and carried by its children owners, often taking larger sizes to protect the child or just to annoy the parents.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

That'll work, although I think we should modify the annoy the parents part.   I'm thinking we should keep them mindless, but have them be programmed to protect children.   How it interprets those commands can lead to it inadvertently annoying (or possibly even harming) the parents and other adults.    Maybe give it an ability similar to berserk, but rather than turning on the creator, it just attacks any adults in the area?


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## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

We could. I just added that last part for humor value. It could have been programmed in the golem as well, by the previously mentioned obnoxious aunts and uncles.

But a protect the children (anyone 12 and under) may be the golems primary orders.

I'm not sure if berserk would be aprropriate, but we could add it.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Plush Golem
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 5d10+20 (47 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
AC: 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Slam +5 melee (X+2)
Full Attack: 2 slams +5 melee (X+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Alternate form, construct traits, damage reduction 10/piercing or slashing, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8–10 HD (Medium); 11–15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

A plush golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise. It stands between X feet tall and weighs around X pounds.

Alternate Form (Su): A plush golem can assume the form of any Tiny plush doll, usually a much smaller version of itslef. Reverting to its true form is a free action. This ability helps the plush golem be loved and carried by its children owners, often taking larger sizes to protect the child or just to annoy the parents.


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## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

For damage, in second edition they went with a small amount. I want to increase it, but make it nonlethal.

1d6+2 nonlethal damage sound good?


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

Good call on the nonlethal!   That amount sounds fine.


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## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

Now the fun parts. It's got the hit points, but not the lethality. I would make the CR something like 2 or possibly 3.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2007)

I'd probably go CR 3.  47 hps and construct immunites go a long way.

Also...



> These creatures are immune to sleep, hold, paralysis, and cold-based spells. They are immune to heat-based spells but suffer normal damage from fire-based spells.




Do we want to give them immunity to magic and work out the exceptions, or simply give them immunity to cold and allow all other spells to function normally?


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## Gothenem (Apr 10, 2007)

I'm a traditionalist, go with Immunity to Magic and note that Fire spells work normally on it.

I would Also give it Immunity to cold, as not all cold spells allow saves.


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## Shade (Apr 11, 2007)

Will do.  How's this look?

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A plush golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Spells that deal fire damage function normally against a plush golem.


I'm also thinking of adding a few more.   How about these?

A mending spell heals a plush golem of 1d4 points of damage.

A make whole spell heals a plush golem of 2d6 points of damage.

A fabricate spell heals a plush golem of all damage.


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## Gothenem (Apr 11, 2007)

Looks good. Do we want to include the repair damage spells?

Also, how about the cold immunity. That way spellcasters with orb of cold don't get to hurt a plush golem with it.


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## Shade (Apr 11, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Looks good. Do we want to include the repair damage spells?




I left them off since they aren't core, and they do affect golems by default, IIRC.



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Also, how about the cold immunity. That way spellcasters with orb of cold don't get to hurt a plush golem with it.




I'll add immunity to cold to the SQ line.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2007)

Updating...

Plush Golem
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 5d10+20 (47 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
AC: 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d6+2 nonlethal)
Full Attack: 2 slams +5 melee (1d6+2 nonlethal)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Alternate form, construct traits, damage reduction 10/piercing or slashing, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8–10 HD (Medium); 11–15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

A plush golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise. It stands between X feet tall and weighs around X pounds.

Alternate Form (Su): A plush golem can assume the form of any Tiny plush doll, usually a much smaller version of itslef. Reverting to its true form is a free action. This ability helps the plush golem be loved and carried by its children owners, often taking larger sizes to protect the child or just to annoy the parents.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A plush golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Spells that deal fire damage function normally against a plush golem.

A mending spell heals a plush golem of 1d4 points of damage.

A make whole spell heals a plush golem of 2d6 points of damage.

A fabricate spell heals a plush golem of all damage.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2007)

> Of particular note are plush golems in the form of a large purple-and-green dinosaur. For some unknown reason, these have been seen in great numbers in recent years, and have an affect of aversion and fear in individuals over 12 years of age. Upon viewing such a creature, persons over 12 must roll a saving throw vs. paralyzation or be struck dumb for 2 rounds.




Hmmm...daze effect?

Should it be an aura, a gaze attack, or something else?


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## BOZ (Apr 16, 2007)

i say daze, and 30-foot radius. it should affect anyone that can see or hear it. heheh.

spoken as a man who has a baby about to turn two.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i say daze, and 30-foot radius. it should affect anyone that can see or hear it. heheh.




_I love you, you love me, make a Will save or be my slave._



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> spoken as a man who has a baby about to turn two.




Brace yourself...the Terrible Twos are justly named.


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## BOZ (Apr 17, 2007)

she didn't wait for two to start that up.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2007)

How's this?

Stupefying Aura (Su):  Any creature within 30 feet of a plush golem with this ability must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or be dazed for 2 rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 18, 2007)

It would make more sense to make the save Charisma-based (especially since golems don't have Constitution scores).


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> It would make more sense to make the save Charisma-based (especially since golems don't have Constitution scores).




That would be my gut reaction.  The problem lies in its Charisma score of 1.  That would make the save DC rather pathetic.    

The stone golem's slow ability and the iron golem's breath weapon are both Constitution-based.   While a breath weapon would normally be Con-based, the slow ability would seem like a Cha-based ability for a non-construct.


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## Tzeentch (Apr 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> That would be my gut reaction.  The problem lies in its Charisma score of 1.  That would make the save DC rather pathetic.



It's a plush doll, and ridiculously low save DCs are amusing in their own right 

Just a note, but be careful of age-related effects since different races are "children" for varying periods of time.


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## Shade (Apr 27, 2007)

Tzeentch said:
			
		

> It's a plush doll, and ridiculously low save DCs are amusing in their own right




Have you never witnessed the power of Barney?   



			
				Tzeentch said:
			
		

> Just a note, but be careful of age-related effects since different races are "children" for varying periods of time.




Agreed.  I was thinking of going with "humanoids that have not reached adulthood".  That way, folks can just use the charts in the PHB.  As for non-humanoids, why should they be bothered by Barney?  They don't have TVs.    

Thus...

Stupefying Aura (Su): Any humanoid that has not reached adulthood (see Table 6-5: Aging Effects in the PHB) within 30 feet of a plush golem with this ability must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or be dazed for 2 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Shade (May 14, 2007)

Any more thoughts on this one?


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## Shade (May 22, 2007)

Updating...

Plush Golem
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 5d10+20 (47 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
AC: 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d6+2 nonlethal)
Full Attack: 2 slams +5 melee (1d6+2 nonlethal)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stupefying aura
Special Qualities: Alternate form, construct traits, damage reduction 10/piercing or slashing, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8–10 HD (Medium); 11–15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

_The child before you seems unsettled by your presence.  Her lower lip pouts and her eyes begin to fill with tears.  Before you can react to show her you mean no harm, the blue bunny she holds by an ear grows to the size of a full grown man._

A plush golem seems to be a mundane child's toy, but they are actually animated guardians for the wellbeing of children.  Often given as gifts by doting relatives, plush golems often become a child's prized possession, going anywhere the child goes.

Plush golems are stuffed animals of the finest craftsmanship and quality, often made of velvet, cotton, wool, or other fabric, then stuffed with cotton, dried beans, or paper.  Their appearance and coloration varies widely, from realisticly emulating real creatures to fantastical mixes of shapes and colors.

A plush golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise. It stands between 5-6 feet tall and weighs around 50 pounds.

Combat

Programmed to protect children, plush golems never directly threaten the safety of children of any race.  If children are endangered, plush golems will attack, providing a distraction while the children escape.

Alternate Form (Su): A plush golem can assume the form of any Tiny plush doll, usually a much smaller version of itslef. Reverting to its true form is a free action. This ability helps the plush golem be loved and carried by its children owners, often taking larger sizes to protect the child or just to annoy the parents.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A plush golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Spells that deal fire damage function normally against a plush golem.

A mending spell heals a plush golem of 1d4 points of damage.

A make whole spell heals a plush golem of 2d6 points of damage.

A fabricate spell heals a plush golem of all damage.

Stupefying Aura (Su): Any humanoid that has not reached adulthood (see Table 6-5: Aging Effects in the PHB) within 30 feet of a plush golem with this ability must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or be dazed for 2 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Aspect of BOZ (May 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Have you never witnessed the power of Barney?




*shudders in terror*

actually, in as much seriousness as i can muster in this thread, that might be a good reason to raise the Cha a bit...

he certainly has a Cha 40 as far as my daughter is concerned!  i only have a 25.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> *shudders in terror*
> 
> actually, in as much seriousness as i can muster in this thread, that might be a good reason to raise the Cha a bit...
> 
> he certainly has a Cha 40 as far as my daughter is concerned!  i only have a 25.




As much as it pains me to admit it...Barney's also fairly intelligent.   Maybe that's the key...follow our example with the conscious scarecrow and make a sentient variant with the stupefying aura power.  Whaddya think?


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2007)

Finishing this one up...

Plush Golem
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 5d10+20 (47 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
AC: 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d6+2 nonlethal)
Full Attack: 2 slams +5 melee (1d6+2 nonlethal)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Alternate form, construct traits, damage reduction 10/piercing or slashing, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8–10 HD (Medium); 11–15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

_The child before you seems unsettled by your presence.  Her lower lip pouts and her eyes begin to fill with tears.  Before you can react to show her you mean no harm, the blue bunny she holds by an ear grows to the size of a full grown man._

A plush golem seems to be a mundane child's toy, but they are actually animated guardians for the wellbeing of children.  Often given as gifts by doting relatives, plush golems often become a child's prized possession, going anywhere the child goes.

Plush golems are stuffed animals of the finest craftsmanship and quality, often made of velvet, cotton, wool, or other fabric, then stuffed with cotton, dried beans, or paper.  Their appearance and coloration varies widely, from realisticly emulating real creatures to fantastical mixes of shapes and colors.

A plush golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise. It stands between 5-6 feet tall and weighs around 50 pounds.

Combat

Programmed to protect children, plush golems never directly threaten the safety of children of any race.  If children are endangered, plush golems will attack, providing a distraction while the children escape.

Alternate Form (Su): A plush golem can assume the form of any Tiny plush doll, usually a much smaller version of itslef. Reverting to its true form is a free action. This ability helps the plush golem be loved and carried by its children owners, often taking larger sizes to protect the child or just to annoy the parents.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A plush golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Spells that deal fire damage function normally against a plush golem.

A mending spell heals a plush golem of 1d4 points of damage.

A make whole spell heals a plush golem of 2d6 points of damage.

A fabricate spell heals a plush golem of all damage.

*Construction*
A plush golem’s body must be crafted from fine fabrics worth 500 gp. Creating the body requires a DC 15 Craft (weaving) check or a DC 15 Profession (seamstress) check.

CL 11th; Craft Construct, fabricate, geas/quest, limited wish, caster must be at least 11th level; Price 15,000 gp; Cost 8,000 gp + 580 XP.

*Conscious Plush Golems*

Plush golems are occassionally created with (or spontaneously develop) sentience.

Conscious plush golems have an Intelligence of 10 and gain feats and skills as appropriate to their Hit Dice. A typical conscious plush golem selects Ability Focus (stupefying aura) and Skill Focus (Perform [comedy]) for feats.   Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Sense Motive, and Spot are class skills for a conscious plush golem.  Its alignment is often neutral good. A conscious plush golem is CR 4.  It gains the following special attack.

Stupefying Aura (Su): Any humanoid that has not reached adulthood (see Table 6-5: Aging Effects in the PHB) within 30 feet of a plush golem with this ability must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or be dazed for 2 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Intentionally creating a conscious plush golem requires daze monster as an additional construction prerequisite.

Originally appeared in Dragon #228, "The Dragon's Worstiary: Golems", Anne Brown, April 1996.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

It's about that time of year again.    

Let's see if we can't get a few oddballs ready to roll for April Fool's Day.

*Death Sheep*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate hill
FREQUENCY: Bather rare
ORGANIZATION: Herd
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
TREASURE: Wool (if you can get it)
ALIGNMENT Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 1 + 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poisonous bite
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to fear, charm, and hold spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: S-M (3-4' tall at shoulder)
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 175

From some unknown source, these deadly sheep roam the verdant hillsides where they live, ravaging anything in their paths. From a distance, they seem to be nothing more than wild, somewhat dirty sheep. Up close, however, the sheep can be seen to have an evil nature. Their large mouths are filled with long, sharp black teeth that drip vile ichor.

These sheep attack any living thing that they can find, fearing nothing and fighting to the death. Because of their ferociousness, the sheep make all attacks at +2 to hit and damage. If a victim is bitten, he must make a save vs. poison at +2 or become as mad as the sheep are in 1-10 days. The victim's teeth gradually turn black and become sharp and pointed, and finally the victim is totally consumed with insanity and berserkly attacks any living thing that it senses, using only its teeth. The only way to save an infected creature is to cast remove curse, cure disease, and neutralize poison spells upon it before half of the 1-10 day cycle is complete. Any of the above three spells cast singly only slows down the progress of the disease by one day.

Any creature consumed by the disease cannot be tamed or controlled in any fashion. Such creatures can be captured and penned up, or perhaps tied up and released later. A favorite battle tactic of one general was to capture several of these sheep, place them in boxed carts, and release them in the direction of his enemies. It worked well until one sheep turned around and looked back; then things got a little sticky.  

All maddened and surviving victims of the death sheep, except other sheep, live only as many days as they have hit points.  Therefore, only the death sheep are ever found, and they do not attack one another.  Death sheep typically travel in flocks (woe to the unwary wolf!) and eat animal flesh, be it fresh or rotten. Birds, reptiles, and all other animals (except mammals) are immune to the poisonous bite of the death sheep. It is speculated that the death sheep are a product of some mage's experiments with rabies, and rumors hold that one
particularly ambitious death sheep named Basil (9 hp) is their leader. 

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #156 (1990).

Probably the inspiration for this:  http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0779982/trailers


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

Excellent!  Well, magical beast, then? Just a guess at stats:
Str 15, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 11?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

Here are the sheep and ram stats from ToH revised:

Sheep (2 HD, Small): Str 10, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 4
Ram (3 HD, Medium):  Str 12, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 4

Sheep has a 1d4 bite attack, ram a 1d6 gore attack.

+2 nat armor for both.

Alertness feat for both (plus Toughness for ram).

All skill ranks in Listen and Spot.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Ranks in Listen and Spot seem quite appropriate.

I say drop the ram attack, increase the bite damage to a d6. 

Do we want to start these guys as small, and let them advance to Medium?

I think we should give them 2 HD, as per the ToH sheep.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

Agreed with 2 HD and Small, and basically modeling them off sheep, not rams.

Increasing bite to 1d6 sounds good.



> Because of their ferociousness, the sheep make all attacks at +2 to hit and damage




Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 4?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

The way I read the "ferociousness" line, they're raging all the time. We could give them the rage of a dire wolverine, activating once they're damaged and lasting until they or their opponent is dead.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> The way I read the "ferociousness" line, they're raging all the time. We could give them the rage of a dire wolverine, activating once they're damaged and lasting until they or their opponent is dead.




I like it.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

All of the above sounds good.  Let's also not forget the special defenses: Immune to fear, charm, and hold spells.

Do we want to do the bite as a disease or a curse like the vargouille's kiss?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> All of the above sounds good.  Let's also not forget the special defenses: Immune to fear, charm, and hold spells.




Simplify to immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities? 



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Do we want to do the bite as a disease or a curse like the vargouille's kiss?




Good question.  I could go either way on that.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2008)

I say curse, and immunity to mind-influencing effects.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

I can agree to both of those.  Working on the curse, modeled after the Vargouille:

Death Sheep Curse (Su):  Any creature damaged by a death sheep's bite attack must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be cursed to transform into a ravening lunatic.  On the each day following the curse, the victim suffers two points of Wisdom drain and develops an urge to attack all other living creatures, which becomes stronger as the Wisdom loss becomes stronger.  Once the victim's Wisdom drops to 0, it is immediately healed of its Wisdom drain but becomes permanently insane and goes berserk, attacking anything it sees, using only its teeth.  At this point, the victim also gains a bite attack that deals 1d4 hp of damage (plus Strength modifier) as a natural attack.  The only way to halt the transformation before it is complete is by casting remove curse, cure disease, and neutralize poison on the victim; once the transformation is complete, the victim can only be restored by the wish or miracle spells.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

I could see Cha-based, but we'd have to bump the Charisma, then.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Looking good.

Since the latin word for sheep is "ovis", how about calling it "curse of the ovis mortis", which I think means "curse of the sheep of death"?


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

Excellent!  Any thoughts about Con vs Cha for the DC?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

I think Con-based would be fine, since it seemed to mimic poison and diseases.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Updated.

Note the following:



> Birds, reptiles, and all other animals (except mammals) are immune to the poisonous bite of the death sheep.




Shall we limit the curse to humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and giants?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sounds good to me. Do we want to keep the triple cure? It's pretty harsh. A break enchantment or remove curse spell would keep the flavor without being overmuch.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Sounds good to me. Do we want to keep the triple cure? It's pretty harsh. A break enchantment or remove curse spell would keep the flavor without being overmuch.




I agree.  It already takes a wish or miracle to reverse the transformation, so might as well give the victim a fighting chance before it goes that far.

Updated.

Feats: 1
Sheep have Alertness

Challenge Rating: 2?

Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium)?

Anything else?


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Let's go for a more melee-oriented feat, since these are really violent little buggers.  How about Weapon Finesse or even Toughness.  It's not a complete waste at this CR.  The rest looks good to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2008)

I say we give them Toughness.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

Updated.  All done?


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Done!  And in plenty of time for April Fools!


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

Yay!  Let's see if we can't get another goofball or two ready in time.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

And here's one such goofball!

*Pigalope:* INT animal; AL N; AC 7; Mv 15; HD 1-1; #AT nil; Dmg 0; SZ S; ML 4; XP 7.

Pigalopes look like furry kangaroos with pig-like faces.  The eat underbrush, but when hungry, they dig into the ground for tree roots.  Their meat tastes like gamy turkey.  Pigalope hides are tough and can be fashioned into hide armor.  They do not fight and flee when contronted, squealing noisily.

Other notes from the adventure in which they appear:

- Appear in herds (no numbers given)
- The live on Revular's Island, which is actually a huge spelljamming asteroid that belongs to an evil race called the syllix
- Unchecked pigalope populations are threats to trees, for they eat the roots and especially like the taste of young saplings

From Dungeon Magazine #71 (1998).


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

These shouldn't be much of a threat.   Magical beast, 1HD.  From the HD listing, I think this should have Con 8-9.  AC should probably be mostly Dex, so how about Dex 14-15 and +1 natural armor?  Int 2, Wis 10-11, Cha 10-11, Str 12-13?  Looks like no natural attacks!


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> AC should probably be mostly Dex, so how about Dex 14-15 and +1 natural armor?




Note this:  "Pigalope hides are tough and can be fashioned into hide armor."

Hide armor is a +3 armor bonus, so that should more than cover their entire AC, leaving them with average Dex.

Added to Homebrews.

I was surprised to find stats for neither a pig nor a kangaroo.  We'll have to remedy that.


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Note this:  "Pigalope hides are tough and can be fashioned into hide armor."
> 
> Hide armor is a +3 armor bonus, so that should more than cover their entire AC, leaving them with average Dex.
> 
> ...



 Ahhh, missed that line.  Stats look good now.  These should either have no natural attacks (I guess we could put nonlethal damage on the attack line) or else a slam doing something like 1 point of damage.

Yes, we need pigs and kangaroos!  Surely there are some old edition pigs and kangaroos for us to convert!


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

According to Echohawk's index, we've got pigs-a-plenty, but no kangaroos in sight.

I like the idea of a slam representing a kick.

Skills: 4
Jump, Listen, Spot?

Racial bonus on Jump checks?

Feats: 1
Alertness?

Organization: Solitary or herd (x-x)

Challenge Rating: 1/4?

Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small); 4 HD (Medium)?
A pigalope stands x feet tall at the shoulder and weighs x pounds.  

Per Wikipedia, the largest kangaroo, the Red Kangaroocan be 6 ft. 7 in. tall and weigh 200 lb.   Wallabies are 2-1/2 feet tall and weigh 30 lbs.

So shall we range from 2-1/2 to 4 feet tall (for Small) and 30-100 pounds?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2008)

Huh, no kangaroos.  We might just have to homebrew them up anyway.   Surely some 3rd party company has written an OGC one somewhere, though.

Jump 2, Listen 1, Spot 1
+8 bonus on Jump

Alertness

herd (8-20)

1/4

Advancement looks good.

Height and weight look good.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2008)

Strange and simple, but I think they're done.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

More foolishness!

"[...] ahead are two large shapes moving to intersect the trail. As you close rapidly, the shapes resolve themselves into huge turtles with white-feathered wings. One of the creatures is equipped with a large leather case. [...]

The turtledoves are aggressive and fight until destroyed, but the party may simply choose to fly past the hapless turtledoves, which cannot catch up. [Note: This is because the adventurers have recently ingested magical eggnog with gives them a flight speed of 1024!] The doves will, however, get one attack at -4 as the party flies past.

Turtledoves (2): Int Low; AL N; AC 2 (top), 5 (head, wings, and underside); MV 6, Fl 15 (C); HD 7+7; hp 31 each; THAC0 12; #AT 1; Dmg 2-8; SA bite inflicts serenity, victim must save vs. paralyzation or refrain from hostile actions for 1d4+1 melee rounds; SZ H (6' Diameter); ML 11; XP 1400 each.

Turtledoves are known to fill their lairs with gaudy, hollow glass balls, Dead turtledoves continue to float, thus the shells of these creatures are highly prized as components for potions of flying and other similar magics. One of the turtledoves carries a large leather case, which contains three musical horns made of shiny brass tubing formed into a circular coil."

From Polyhedron #55 (1990).


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Medium magical beast?

Updating the snapping turtle's (Stormwrack) ability scores to Medium yields...

Str 16, Dex 6, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4

These have Int Low (5-7).

The Large warturtle (Dragon #343) has Str 20, Dex 7, Con 17, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 9.

I'd imagine these things are weaker than something bred for war.

So maybe...

Str 16, Dex 7, Con 17, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 9?

Here's a start for serenity:

Serenity (Su):  A creature bitten by a turtledove must succeed on a DC X Will save or forgo all hostile actions for 1d4+1 rounds.  This is otherwise identical to a calm emotions spell.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2008)

Let's swap Wis and Cha because I think the serenity bite will probably be Cha-based.

Edit: just saw your start on Serenity.  Con is definitely a better DC, but, for a spell-like effect, doesn't Cha-based make more sense?  Or we could make this like a poison. What do you think?


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

I'd like to keep Wis consistent with the other turtles, so let's just bump the Cha.

Added to Homebrews.

+10 natural armor like warturtle?



> Dead turtledoves continue to float




Hmmm...that seems to suggest magical flight like a beholder, despite having wings.


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 31, 2008)

I actually found a stat block for a kangaroo! From "The Voyage of the Princess Ark", Dragon #186:

Kangaroo: A common herbivore of the grassy outback and lower hills outcroppings, this marsupial forms an important component of chameleon men diet.  Skins can be sold to phanatons for 2d6 silver pieces (or equivalent barter value).  AC 8, HD 2 (M), MV 240' (80'), AT 1 hind leg, D 1d8, NA 0(3-60), Save F1, ML 7, TT Nil, Int 2, AL N, XP 20.  The kangaroo can leap up to 60'.

The article also has stats for saltwater crocodlies, dingos, giant spiny anteaters, emus, goannas, koalas, kookaburras, giant termites, wild turkeys, and wakaleo (marsupial lion).


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Woo-hoo!  Nice find.  We'll tackle those next in the "real world animals" thread.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

Maybe drop natural armor a little compared to the war turtle, maybe +7 or +8.  Really, these shouldn't be as tough as a war turtle.  Magical flight sounds good to me, too.

Skills: ?, Feats: Alertness?, Ability Focus (serenity), ?

Excellent about the kangaroo!


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2008)

Agreed to the magical flight, Cha-based serenity DC.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Updated.

Since the snapping turtle had all Spot and no Listen, I did likewise here, and changed Alertness to Skill Focus (Spot).   I also added Hover as the third feat.

Challenge Rating: 3?  (A warturtle is CR 4, and has one less HD, but much more damage output)

Advancement: 8-14 HD (Medium); 15-21 HD (Large)?

A turtledove is 6 feet in diameter and weighs x pounds.   (Unfortunately, neither the tortle nor warturtle have weights given from which we might get an estimate.)

Edit:  I just checked Wikipedia, and giant tortoises weigh up to 670 lbs. at 4 feet long, so these fellas could easily weigh 800 or more pounds.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

All sounds good, and let's go with 800 lb.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2008)

Makes sense to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Great!  I posted the two previous oddballs to the Creature Catalogue earlier today, and I'll add the turtledoves and anything others we can wrap up as well.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

*Pigeontoad*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate wetlands and forests
FREQUENCY Mostly rare
ORGANIZATION: Flock
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
TREASURE: Nil (lizard men like their eggs, though)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 6, Fly 12 (D)
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 (claw/claw/bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1/1/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Automatic damage
with grasp, possibly poisonous bite
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: S (2'long, 15 lbs.)
MORALE: Steady (12), or Elite (14) in a group of 10 +
XP VALUE: 35 (175 if poisonous)

These awkward, oviparous crossbreeds are usually found only in swampy conditions, although they sometimes dwell in dark forests near pools of water. They have also been found underground, but again only when they have easy access to water. They are more common in warm climes but are found in less temperate zones as well. Pigeontoads have toadlike bodies with leathery wings and birdlike talons.

A pigeontoad attacks a single opponent with two grasping claws and a sharpbeaked bite. If both claws hit in the same round, the opponent has been grasped and the claw damage is automatic until the creature has been killed. Beak attacks are at +2 to hit while an opponent is grasped.

About 15% of all pigeontoad flocks are poisonous; poisonous and nonpoisonous flocks never mix. The poison is administered by a successful bite and causes damage equal to that of the bite (so if the bite does 3 hp damage, the poison damage is likewise 3 hp). If the victim fails a save vs. poison, he becomes weak, gradually losing strength and constitution points as the poison takes effect at the rate of one point (each) per turn. Once both scores have reached 1, the victim is too weak to move and will die in 13-24 hours unless the poison is neutralized.

The female pigeontoad lays a clutch of 10-100 eggs in the water every spring. At least 75% of these eggs are consumed by natural predators. The young that hatch resemble tadpoles, with vestigial wings that serve as fins. Their size is about 3" at hatching, and growth is gradual at first; but by summer's end, the tiny pigeontoads can fly short distances. By the end of fall, they have reached normal size and either join the flock or, if enough have survived, form a new flock and search for a new nesting ground. The life span of these creatures is 3-5 years. 

Pigeontoad flocks can be a menace to local communities, feeding indiscriminately on pets, herd animals, and humans.  The flock attacks en masse and does not fear humans except in great numbers. Their normal diet consists of snakes, lizards, and other swamp creatures, but pigeontoads eat whatever they can kill, and a flock can kill quite a variety of things.

These creatures have no treasures, at least not so far as humans are concerned.  Lizard men, however, eat the jellylike mass of eggs and have been known to domesticate small flocks of the creatures, using them as guards and to produce quantities of eggs for consumption. Adult pigeontoads do not seem to venture into the  water except to mate; they lair in hollow trees, bushes, or stumps. 

Olive-green is the predominant color of most pigeontoads, fading to a pale yellow underbelly. Their wings are gray with some greenish tint. The beak and feet are black. Pigeontoads make a croaking sound when alarmed, sounding not unlike normal toads.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #156 (1990).


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Toad ability scores:  Str 1, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 4
Thrush (Diminutive bird) ability scores:  Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 6  

Note the higher Int for the thrush is due to it being in an article on familiars.

Eagles and ravens have Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6.

So...

Str 1, Dex 12-15, Con 10-11, Int 1-2, Wis 14, Cha 4-6?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2008)

They don't seem too terribly smart, so let's stick to Int 1. 

We should make them all poisonous, or have a "poisonous pigeontoad" as a variant with an increased CR.

The thing about grabbing with their claws sounds like an attach ability to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

That all sounds good, and I think the venomous variety should be the standard.  We could always state in the flavor text that some lack venom (CR -1).


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

For the poison, no initial damage, and secondary damage of 1 Str and 1 Con?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

Sounds good so far.

Let's increase the poison damage, given that it does hp damage in the original and can continue to do Str and Con damage over a long time in the original.  Maybe 1 Str and Con damage initial and 1d4 or 1d6 Str and Con secondary?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

Hmmm... we might want to rework this as non-traditonal poison, since it did ongoing damage.  Otherwise it might be too powerful for its likely very-low CR.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 3, 2008)

I don't see why its CR needs to be so low... I think it should be stirge-ish in CR, so the ability damage poison works.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

I think we need to add that an attached pigeontoad does automatic claw damage each round.


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I don't see why its CR needs to be so low... I think it should be stirge-ish in CR, so the ability damage poison works.




Fair enough.  So do you want to go with freyar's 1 Str and Con damage initial and 1d4 or 1d6 Str and Con secondary?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I think we need to add that an attached pigeontoad does automatic claw damage each round.




Agreed.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 4, 2008)

Sure, let's use freyar's poison damage. 1d4.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Updated.

Do we want to borrow this?

Skills: A toad’s coloration gives it a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks.


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Sure, and put all the ranks in Hide?  Do we want to go with Ability Focus (poison) for the feat?


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Sure, and put all the ranks in Hide?  Do we want to go with Ability Focus (poison) for the feat?




With a current DC of 10, I think that feat is a fantastic idea!


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Ok, filling in the last x's:

Treasure: none
Advancement: 2-4 HD (Diminutive)
CR: 1/2?


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Updated.

Do we want to give it Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat?

Without it, its full attack line will look like this:
Full Attack: 2 claws -1 melee (1-5) and bite -6 melee (1d4-5 plus poison)

With it, it'll look like this:
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1-5) and bite +2 melee (1d4-5 plus poison)

Also, would it make more sense to combine the claws into a single attack, thus allowing it to fly and attach all in a single charge?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Yes to all of the above.  So then attach only requires a single hit, sure.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Great!  Updated.


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Looks good!  I guess it's done.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

I know it's not April yet, but let's see if we can't have a few ready to post for April Fool's Day.  

*Killer Spruce*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subarctic forests
FREQUENCY: Sorta rare
ORGANIZATION: Grove
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Photosynthesis, with supplemental “organic enrichment” of the soil in which it lives
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 0 (trunk)/3 (branches)
MOVEMENT: Nil
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 6 branch strikes
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12 per strike
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Dying blow, possible poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage, resistant to blunt weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: L (30’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20), as it can’t run away
XP VALUE: 5,000 (7,000 if poisonous)

A killer spruce is an ill-tempered tree that can stand no other kinds of life near it. It attacks all creatures passing under it by hitting downward and inward with its lowest branches, which are equipped with seemingly normal but unusually hard and strong needles. There is no way to distinguish a killer spruce from a normal spruce except to examine its needles carefully (at which point it will attack you anyway). Young killer spruce behave in all ways like normal spruces until they reach full treehood. All killer spruce show a marked preference for elven victims. 

If a killer spruce has been brought to zero or fewer hit points, it makes one final attempt to destroy its opponents by falling over onto them. Anyone hit by such an attack suffers 5-30 hp damage and must make a dexterity check on 1d20 or be trapped beneath the fallen spruce. A killer spruce does not care about treasure, but there might still be some valuables lying under it, left there by past victims at the DM’s discretion.

Some of these fierce conifers (15%) also have a weak poison on their needles that requires a character to save vs. poison at +3. Anyone who fails the save falls into a comatose sleep for 1-4 turns and may be attacked at +4 to hit by the spruce. 

Attacking a killer spruce with blunt weapons does only one-quarter normal damage. A killer spruce is very susceptible to fire, and all such attacks are saved against at -4. Druids can only speculate as to how killer spruce originated, and they dislike the time they spend rescuing adventurers from their clutches.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #156 (1990).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

Except for the name, this isn't actually all that silly...


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Indeed.  Many of these "joke" monsters are actually fairly solid creatures.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

There were some good designers back in the day, huh?

This one actually has some pretty good dry humor in the diet and morale line, though.  We have to try to capture that.

Huge plant, then?


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Yep, sure were.  

Huge plant sounds good.  Keep 'em mindless, or give 'em animal intelligence?

Ability scores of some other Huge "trees"...

Treant: Str 29, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12
Dark Tree: Str 28, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 7
Ironmaw: Str 30, Dex 9, Con 23, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 14

It looks like physical scores are fairly close, Str 28-30, Dex 8-9, Con 21-23.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

Let's give them animal intelligence.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Str 30, Dex 8, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 2?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

Agreed to that.

Shall we just give all of them poison or only 15%?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

Those scores appeal.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Sure, let's go poison standard for killer spruces.



> If a killer spruce has been brought to zero or fewer hit points, it makes one final attempt to destroy its opponents by falling over onto them. Anyone hit by such an attack suffers 5-30 hp damage and must make a dexterity check on 1d20 or be trapped beneath the fallen spruce. A killer spruce does not care about treasure, but there might still be some valuables lying under it, left there by past victims at the DM’s discretion.




We might be able to repurpose this...

Topple (Ex): When a rook is destroyed in melee combat, it topples into the space of the creature that landed the killing blow. Treat this as a cave-in or collapse, except the bury zone is limited to the 5-foot-space of the opponent who landed the killing blow, and the slide zone is all the adjacent squares. In the case of an opponent with a space larger than 5-feet or that attacks from greater than 5 feet away (such as with a reach weapon), the rook topples into an adjacent square in the direction from which the killing blow originated. The resulting rubble weighs 2,000 pounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

I don't think buried as per a cave-in is quite right--they should be pinned and take automatic slam damage, more like the crush ability of big dragons.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

I'd agree with demiurge.  But we can probably just modify that bit from the rook.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2009)

Fair enough.  Crushed/pinned works for me.

Back to the poison for a second...



> Some of these fierce conifers (15%) also have a weak poison on their needles that requires a character to save vs. poison at +3. Anyone who fails the save falls into a comatose sleep for 1-4 turns and may be attacked at +4 to hit by the spruce.




Initial and secondary sleep?   Suggested durations?

Also, I'd say the saving throw bonus suggests we not use Ability Focus in this instance.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 6, 2009)

We may even want a racial penalty to the DC.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Or a lower Con.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 6, 2009)

I like the high Con, personally--killer trees should be tough. But racial penalties have been done before (see the grell for the only example I can come up with off the top of my head).


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2009)

Interesting point about the grell. Well, a penalty seems fine here, especially as this is kind of a "joke" critter.  Sort of.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Racial penalty works here.  Suggested amount?

Suggested durations for primary and secondary sleep?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 9, 2009)

-4 penalty? 

1 minute/1 hour?


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2009)

Agreed to that.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Summarizing...

Fell Crush (Ex): When a killer spruce is destroyed in melee combat, it attempts to fall atop as many adversaries as possible and crush them.  This special attack affects as many creatures of up to two size categories smaller than the killer spruce as can fit under it's body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a DC 24 Reflex save or be pinned, automatically taking 3d6+15 points of bludgeoning damage during the each round unless the killer spruce's corpse is removed.  To determine the escape DC, treat the killer spruce as if it were alive and making a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.  The save DC is Strength-based.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial damage sleep for 1 minute, secondary damage sleep for 1 hour. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a -4 racial penalty.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm pretty happy with that.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Ditto


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Updated.



> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage, resistant to blunt weapons






> There is no way to distinguish a killer spruce from a normal spruce except to examine its needles carefully (at which point it will attack you anyway).




Camouflage (like assassin vine), or racial bonus on Hide/Disguise checks?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm for assassin vine camouflage here.  I don't know, Disguise just seems a little weird, and I don't see these getting better at Disguising themselves if they advance.  Besides, a fixed DC is likely to be better if we bump the one from the vine. 

DR 5 I think.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Agreed to DR 5 and a high DC on that camouflage.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

DC 25?  or 27?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 11
Listen and Spot?

Feats: 3
Alertness, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Sounds good.

2 ft diameter, 4500 lb like a treant?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

How about a bit lighter, since treants are generally considered oak, and spruce is a lighter wood?  Maybe 4,000 pounds?

Listen +6, Spot +5?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

That works for me.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Updated.

Here's some info on spruces:
Spruce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The most shocking revelation:  spruce beer!  

Environment: Temperate or cold forests?

Organization: Solitary or grove (2-4)?

Alignment: Usually neutral evil?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Like grove, NE and environment.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 8?  They have 1 more HD than treants, and the poison and additional attacks seems to offset the advantage of animate trees and the treant's better DR.

Treasure: Standard?

Advancement: 9–16 HD (Huge); 17–24 HD (Gargantuan)?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

CR 8 seems right. Half standard treasure (from fallen victims). Advancement sounds good.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Everything sounds good, including half standard treasure.

Spruce beer is good!  Not quite as good as traditional root beer from sassafras, but I like it!  My grocery has it.


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## Melatuis (Mar 11, 2009)

Are there Spruce Treants?  If there are, what is there relationship with Killer Spruce?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> Spruce beer is good!  Not quite as good as traditional root beer from sassafras, but I like it!  My grocery has it.




I may just have to hunt down a bottle.  



Melatuis said:


> Are there Spruce Treants?  If there are, what is there relationship with Killer Spruce?




Treants don't appear to be broken down by tree types, except for the occasional exotic variant like the cactus treant. 

I'd imagine most treants dislike killer spruces, though, if for no other reason than they give "animated trees" a bad name.  

Updated.


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## Melatuis (Mar 11, 2009)

Do Kill Spruce let birds nest in there branches, or do they just kill all none plant creatures?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Probably not.  According to the original text "A killer spruce is an ill-tempered tree that can stand no other kinds of life near it".


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

All done, then?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Other than working "organic enrichment" into the flavor text, I think so.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

"A killer spruce gains nourishment from photosynthesis and the organic enrichment of the soil that it undertakes itself."

Actually, looking at the stat block, is there a reason we added the 10 ft movement speed?  These guys originally had 0.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Dunno.

Fixed.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Oh, good.  Then we can add the following line to the combat tactics:  "Killer spruce fight to the death, not least because they can't run away!"

Given their lack of movement, are these really CR 8?  Or should we bump the camouflage DC a bit to make it a little easier for them to surprise 8th level characters?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Good point.  CR 6?

Bump camouflage to DC 30?

Improved Initiative as bonus feat to help give them one more attack?

I could almost see giving them a volley of poisonous needles to prevent characters from standing out of reach and "XP farming" them.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

See, I thought they had a volley of poisonous needles! Which I like. We should add it.

Treat it like a manticore, but do damage as darts? Can fire how many per day?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Like so?

Poison Needles (Ex): With a flick of its branches, a killer spruce can loose a volley of six poisonous needles as a standard action (make an attack roll for each needle). This attack has a range of 180 feet with no range increment. All targets must be within 30 feet of each other. The killer spruce can launch only x needles in any 24-hour period.

For the attack lines...

Attack: Slam +15 melee (1d8+10 plus poison) or 6 spikes +5 ranged (1d4+10 plus poison)
Full Attack: 6 slams +15 melee (1d8+10 plus poison) or 6 spikes +5 ranged (1d4+10 plus poison)

I assumed you meant "damage as Medium darts"...if we upsize them, they deal the same damage as its slams.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes, Medium darts. How about... 36 needles a day? That gives it six volleys total. Better than a manticore, but keeps it competitve at CR 8.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Bump camouflage to DC 30?

Improved Initiative as bonus feat to help give them one more strike before others react?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Agreed to both.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

Yes, I think so.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Looks good to me, too.  I like the darts!


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Since the killer spruce didn't end up very silly, let's see if we can't get another one or two ready for April Fool's Day.

*Gello Monster*
Created by: William S. Greenway
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Quite rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral, if squishy
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: 9 (and can climb flawlessly)
HIT DICE: 1-28 (3d10 -2) servings
THAC0: Nil; see text
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 smother
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See text
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Smothering
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Only harmed by snarfing (see text)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Immune to all spells (see text)
SIZE: S (1-3&#146;square, or 1-28 cubic feet)
MORALE: Fearless (20) until snarfed; then
Average (10)
XP VALUE: 10 calories per serving

The gello monster is a variant of the gelatinous cube. These dreaded monsters came into being when a convention of gelatin merchants, which had mistakenly been held in the Grotto of the Gelatinous Cubes because the organizer thought it sounded appropriate, was ambushed by a horde of gelatinous cubes. The cubes, of course, devoured all that was there, including many of the gelatin mixes that the merchants had on display. Once inside the cubes, the gelatin mixes diffused throughout their bodies, reacting with the internal juices of the cubes and radically altered their physiology.

The cubes, of course, acquired the flavor and coloring of the mixes they consumed, and are now found in many colors and flavors, varying from red to puce, and from cherry to blackberry-orange. As a result of having acquired the coloring of the gelatin mixes, the silent-moving gello monsters cause victims to have a -1 on their surprise rolls (gello monsters are small, which helps, but they all smell very strongly of whatever flavor they happen to be). 

When attacking, a gello monster slithers up a character's body and attempts to cover his breathing orifices, doing 2-8 hp smothering damage per round (no to-hit roll required). Once a meal is dead, a gello monster takes 2-8 days to eat it by means of weak digestive juice (also a result of the gelatin infusion).

Defensively, gello monsters are well-nigh invulnerable. Blows from edged weapons only divide them evenly into smaller monsters, and blunt weapons bounce off them harmlessly, with a 35% chance of hitting the wielder on the rebound. Magical spells affect them, but only in a limited way.  Heat- and cold-based spells make them either warmer or colder but do not harm them, and all other spells have similar results. For example, a magic missile attack would make one only quiver, and an ice storm would only serve as a decorative topping.

The only way to defeat a gello monster is to snarf it "i.e., eat it as fast as possible.  Snarfing attacks are made by rolling 4d6 vs. the snarfer's constitution. If the roll is less than the constitution of the snarfer, then he has successfully snarfed one serving of damage against the gello monster. If the roll is greater, the character is unable to snarf that round (but he can try later, as there's always room for gello). If the roll equals a snarfer's constitution, he must rest for one round but may automatically snarf on the following round. If a snarfer eats at least two servings but then fails his snarfing roll three times in a row, he may snarf no more and must excuse himself from combat. If the snarfer does not escape, he will be at the mercy of the gello monster. About one cubic foot of a gello monster equals the amount a character may snarf in one round.

Huge versions of gello monsters are whispered of, so large that only giants could snarf them. Little else is known.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #156 (1990).

_Snarf, snarf_...


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Apparently gelatinous cubes break into smaller bits when they eat jello mix.  Change the scarfing mechanic to a plain DC X Con check?


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 26, 2009)

How about having bite attacks work normally on these creatures?


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 26, 2009)

And if 1 serving = 1 hp, the average gello monster should have 2-3 HD (14.5/5.5).


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 26, 2009)

Treasure: 1/10th coins, 50% goods (no nonmetal or nonstone), 50% items (no nonmetal or nonstone) (same as gelatinous cube)


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

That all sounds good!

Downsizing a g-cube to Small, without changing Str or Dex yields...

Str 10, Dex 1, Con 16, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1

Look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2009)

Looks fine by me. Maybe boost Dex a little bit--they strike me as slippery.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

I like the bite attacks, perfect!  You're proficient but still deal lethal damage.  Only 1hp per bite, though?  Add Str?

Let's boost Dex to 5 or 6.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> The cubes, of course, acquired the flavor and coloring of the mixes they consumed, and are now found in many colors and flavors, varying from red to puce, and from cherry to blackberry-orange. As a result of having acquired the coloring of the gelatin mixes, the silent-moving gello monsters cause victims to have a -1 on their surprise rolls (gello monsters are small, which helps, but they all smell very strongly of whatever flavor they happen to be).




Racial bonus on Move Silently checks?   Bonus on Hide checks when in areas of similar coloration?   Scent spots them at twice the normal range?



> When attacking, a gello monster slithers up a character's body and attempts to cover his breathing orifices, doing 2-8 hp smothering damage per round (no to-hit roll required). Once a meal is dead, a gello monster takes 2-8 days to eat it by means of weak digestive juice (also a result of the gelatin infusion).




Any precedents for "smothering damage"?



> Defensively, gello monsters are well-nigh invulnerable. Blows from edged weapons only divide them evenly into smaller monsters, and blunt weapons bounce off them harmlessly, with a 35% chance of hitting the wielder on the rebound.




We can borrow the split from black puddings.

That rebounding is too goofy not to retain.  



> Magical spells affect them, but only in a limited way.  Heat- and cold-based spells make them either warmer or colder but do not harm them, and all other spells have similar results. For example, a magic missile attack would make one only quiver, and an ice storm would only serve as a decorative topping.




Some sort of adaptive spell immunity?



> The only way to defeat a gello monster is to snarf it "i.e., eat it as fast as possible.  Snarfing attacks are made by rolling 4d6 vs. the snarfer's constitution. If the roll is less than the constitution of the snarfer, then he has successfully snarfed one serving of damage against the gello monster. If the roll is greater, the character is unable to snarf that round (but he can try later, as there's always room for gello). If the roll equals a snarfer's constitution, he must rest for one round but may automatically snarf on the following round. If a snarfer eats at least two servings but then fails his snarfing roll three times in a row, he may snarf no more and must excuse himself from combat. If the snarfer does not escape, he will be at the mercy of the gello monster. About one cubic foot of a gello monster equals the amount a character may snarf in one round.




We've got some groundwork laid on this ability upthread.  To summarize:  bite attacks deal normal damage, creatures without bite attacks gain one.  Maybe bite damage is based on size of biting creature?   Treat in all ways as a normal bite attack?   Creature must make Con checks/Fort saves after consuming so much or become "full"?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2009)

I think it's just ordinary spell immunity.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2009)

I'd agree about the spell immunity sounding like the usual kind.  

Agreed to Hide and Move Silently bonus.  The scent idea is nice!

I unfortunately can't think of smothering damage.  Even being engulfed by an ooze doesn't suffocate you.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Found one!

Suffocate (Ex): A common raffamoffyn can asphyxiate a wrapped creature by drawing the air from its lungs. This attack automatically deals 1d4 points of damage per round.

Wrap (Ex): With a successful grapple check, a raggamoffyn can wrap itself around any foe it has already grabbed with another successful grapple check. The monster forms a skintight layer around the wrapped victim, covering it from head to toe but leaving enough space for the creature to breathe through its mouth and nose. Attacks on such a target deal half their damage to the monster and half to the wrapped creature. An affected creature can extract itself by making a successful grapple check. Once it has wrapped a creature, the raggamoffyn can attempt to control it on its next action.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

Excellent!  So let's give these a big grapple bonus, then (once grappling) they can choose to suffocate (rather than pin)?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

That sounds about right.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

So give it improved grab and note that it can suffocate with a second grapple check.

Suffocate (Ex): A gello monster can asphyxiate a grappled creature by drawing the air from its lungs. With a successful grapple check, this attack deals 1d4 points of damage per round.

How large of a grapple bonus?  +12 or more?


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

Updated.

Getting started on the "snarfing" ability...

Vulnerable to Snarfing (Ex):  The best way to destroy a gello monster is to eat it.  Bite attacks deal normal damage to a gello monster, and do not cause it to split.  Creatures without bite attacks may attempt to bite a gello monster.  Treat this attack as if the creature had a natural bite attack.  Damage is based on the creature's size:  Fine = 1, Diminutive = 1d2, Tiny = 1d3, Small = 1d4, Medium = 1d6, Large = 1d8, Huge = 2d6, Gargantuan = 2d8, Colossal = 4d6.

Other things to incorporate:

Bitten off bits must be swallowed.  Parts that are spit out are treated as if the gello monster had split?  

A creature must make Con checks/Fort saves after consuming so much or become "full"?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

Looks like a good start!  I don't think spit out parts are big enough to function separately, though, so I wouldn't include splitting.  

Fort saves or having to stop eating makes sense.  DC 10 + 1 per bite, made after each bite (to be able to continue after) or else sickened for some length of time?


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

Those mechanics seem appropriate.

I'm trying to think of a way to encourage actual digestion rather than bite and spit, bite and spit...


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

Hmmm, maybe split would work, since you can split down to pretty small parts.  How about any bite of 3 or more hp can function as a gello monster (because that's what you'd get if you split a 5 or more hp gello monster normally)?


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 1, 2009)

Swallow whole attacks should have their usual effects on these things too.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Swallow whole attacks should have their usual effects on these things too.




Excellent point!


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

Agreed!


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Snarfing the snarf....

Vulnerable to Snarfing (Ex): The best way to destroy a gello monster is to eat it. Bite attacks deal normal damage to a gello monster, and do not cause it to split. Creatures without bite attacks may attempt to bite a gello monster. Treat this attack as if the creature had a natural bite attack. Damage is based on the creature's size: Fine = 1, Diminutive = 1d2, Tiny = 1d3, Small = 1d4, Medium = 1d6, Large = 1d8, Huge = 2d6, Gargantuan = 2d8, Colossal = 4d6.

A creature must swallow the bitten off bit or risk facing another smaller gello monster.   Each bite that deals 3 or more points of damage that is not swallowed becomes an independent gello monsters (as per the creature's split ability).  Smaller chunks simply perish.

Gello monster bits are very filling.  A creature snarfing a gello monster must succeed on a Fortitude save after each bite (DC 10 + 1 per bite) to continue snarfing.  A creature that fails its save and attempts to continue snarfing is sickened for x rounds.

A creature with the swallow whole special attack that successfully swallows a gello monster kills it instantly.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Excellent!  I'd say sickened for 1d6 rounds.  That usually would take someone out of the fight, I think.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

Updated.

CR?

Advancement?

*A gello monster gains a +x racial bonus on Hide checks made in areas of similar coloration.

A typical gello monster is 3 feet on a side and weighs about x pounds, though much larger specimens are not unknown.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Scaling the gelatinous cube weight gives 120 lb.

+4 Hide checks, I think.

3-6 HD (Small), 7-12 HD (Medium)

Probably CR 1 or weak 2.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

Should we make them even lighter, so they can climb up a victim without knocking them over?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

We could.  I've kind of been imagining that they drape themselves over a victim, so they don't necessarily become  top-heavy.  Your call.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

That'll work.

With all those immunities, let's go CR 2.

Updated.

Anything else?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

I think they're all set.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 2, 2009)

Looks good to me.


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2009)

D'oh! Sorry I missed the latest round... been really busy!  Just moved the family into a new apartment a couple weeks ago and it's been hectic!


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2009)

Shade said:


> Snarfing the snarf....
> 
> Vulnerable to Snarfing (Ex): The best way to destroy a gello monster is to eat it. Bite attacks deal normal damage to a gello monster, and do not cause it to split. Creatures without bite attacks may attempt to bite a gello monster. Treat this attack as if the creature had a natural bite attack. Damage is based on the creature's size: Fine = 1, Diminutive = 1d2, Tiny = 1d3, Small = 1d4, Medium = 1d6, Large = 1d8, Huge = 2d6, Gargantuan = 2d8, Colossal = 4d6.
> 
> ...




Sorry for being late to the party (again). [Hmm, this time the party's got jelly! Will their be cake as well?]

The basic notion looks good, but I'd have the snarfing do lethal unarmed strike damage (e.g. 1d3 for Medium, 1d2 for small) rather than introduce a new attack.

Though that raises the question - do monks do their special unarmed strike damage when snarfing? The SRD says they can use fists, elbows, knees and feet and I believe many 3ED&Ders extend that list to include other potential natural weapons (headbutts, bite et cetera).

As it is, the base Gello Monster will take five snarfs on average to destroy (17hp / 3.5 per Medium-sized snarf)/ Reducing snarf damage to unarmed strike (average of 2 for a Medium-sized humanoid) would increase that to nine snarfs, which seems a better fit to me.

The original stat indicates a Small Gello Monster takes 1-28 snarfs to kill. A 2d10+6-6d10+18 Gello Monster would take 5-15 snarfs at 1d6/snarf, 8-24 at 1d3/snarf, on average. It still falls down a bit at the low end, since they have a minimum of 8 hps (or ~2-4 snarfs to kill).


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

By request from Echohawk (to finish off Imagine Magazine conversions)...

*Lurker Between (or Spam Monster):* AC 26 (always gets bitten), Move 0"; Hit Dice NA; hp NA; #AT 1 per bite; SA see below; AL N; S Fairly Dinky; xp NA.

These terrible monsters are indistinguishable from luncheon meat. They hide (90%) in ordinary food and wait to be eaten. Each time it is bitten it will attack, from the inside! It automatically causes 1 hit pointof damage and the victim must roll under his or her constitution on a d100. Failure indicates that the victim is violently ill for 1-10 rounds. Only Vikings are immune to this attack - they value the creature as a rare delicacy and will pay up to 20gp for a fine specimen.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #21 (1984)

I'm open to any suggestions to turn this into something remotely viable as a creature.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2009)

April already? 

These are kind of like reverse gello monsters.

They're almost like a hazard or a cursed item.  But we could have them be Diminutive monsters that can be Swallowed Whole by anything.

They'd have to have an interesting ecology section, to be sure!


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## pawsplay (Nov 1, 2009)

freyar said:


> I think they're all set.




Well played.


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> Well played.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

The lurker above is a Huge aberration with 10 HD, Str 27, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 5, Wis 18, Cha 4.

If we downsize that to Diminutive, we'd get something like...

1 HD, Str 1, Dex 22, Con 11, Int 5, Wis 18, Cha 4

Lurker aboves have darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, and tremorsense, and takes only half damage from bludgeoning attacks (3e, probably DR/slashing or piercing now).


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

That works for me.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'm open to any suggestions to turn this into something remotely viable as a creature.




Actually, in AD&D ecological terms it's a perfectly sensible idea for a monster. I've already finished writing up my interpretation of it. I'll post it as an alternative take once you've finished the cooperative conversion.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2009)

Well, I think the first question is whether they survive being eaten or if death by digestion is part of their life cycle.  That might help us figure out the abilities a bit more.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

That's an excellent question.  

Both options seem rather disgusting!


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

I kind of like the idea that being digested is kind of like salmon swimming upstream to spawn and die.  So maybe the damage they do once eaten is part of their birthing process, getting nutrition for the kids?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

What happens when the young are born within the host?  <shudders>


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

Maybe the nausea is vomiting up the young?

You know, these are reminding me more and more of a poison or edible hazard than a monster.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Perhaps that is the way to go.  They might even be the larval forms of lurker aboves...


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2009)

Oh, that would be interesting.  They have to be digested and vomited back up to progress in their life cycle!  Let's do that.  So: a hazard, that when eaten, causes some hp damage and nausea?


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

Sounds like a plan!


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

To start with, I guess they'll require a Spot check vs a static DC (?) to notice that it's not food.  I expect these to be pretty low CR, so maybe DC 15?


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

That sounds reasonable.  Perhaps creatures with scent gain a bonus to notice the "lunchmeat" doesn't smell right?


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

Good call!  +4 maybe.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2009)

So...

Lurker Between (CR X):  This creature, rumored to be the larval form of the lurker above, is harmless unless eaten.  However, in order to continue its life cycle, it must be digested and vomited back up.  Something in the stomach acid of most creatures promotes its growth.   A lurker between is nearly indistinguishable form of a bite-sized piece of dried meat, and instinctively lurks near ration stores and other places where meat is stored, or even near old kills in hopes of being devoured by carrion eaters.  A creature must succeed on a DC 15 Spot check to notice that the lurker between is, in fact, a living creature.  Creatures with the scent ability gain a +4 bonus on their check, for the lurker between cannot emulate the smell of dried meat.   A creature that consumes a lurker between must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become sickened for 1d10 rounds.  One minute later, it must succeed on another DC 15 Fortitude save or become nauseous for 1 round while vomiting forth the creature.  Thereafter, the creature is sickened for an additional 1d4 rounds.  


Things to determine:
1) What happens to the creature if the victim succeeds on its save(s)?
2) What magic removes or kills it?
3) Can a victim willingly become nauseous at any time to bring it up early?


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Well, let's aim this at CR 1 or 2 to help answer those questions.  Here are some suggestions.

1) Kills the lurker between, victim only sickened for 1d4 rounds.
2) Delay poison puts off the effects for the duration of the spell, neutralize poison kills the lurker between with no side-effects.  A DC 20? Heal check kills the lurker between but leaves victim sickened for 1d4 rounds (like a successful save).
3) I'd say no.  If we want to say yes, make it a DC 20? Con check.  I don't think it's easy for most people to get themselves to vomit.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Sounds good.

Revising..

Lurker Between (CR 1-2): This creature, rumored to be the larval form of the lurker above, is harmless unless eaten. However, in order to continue its life cycle, it must be digested and vomited back up. Something in the stomach acid of most creatures promotes its growth. A lurker between is nearly indistinguishable form of a bite-sized piece of dried meat, and instinctively lurks near ration stores and other places where meat is stored, or even near old kills in hopes of being devoured by carrion eaters. A creature must succeed on a DC 15 Spot check to notice that the lurker between is, in fact, a living creature. Creatures with the scent ability gain a +4 bonus on their check, for the lurker between cannot emulate the smell of dried meat. A creature that consumes a lurker between must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become sickened for 1d10 rounds. One minute later, it must succeed on another DC 15 Fortitude save or become nauseous for 1 round while vomiting forth the creature. Thereafter, the creature is sickened for an additional 1d4 rounds. 

If a victim succeeds on any of its saves, its stomach acid kills the lurker between, leaving the victim only sickened for 1d4 rounds.  A delay poison effect puts off the effects for the duration of the spell, while a neutralize poison effect kills the lurker between with no side-effects to the victim. A DC 20 Heal check kills the lurker between but leaves victim sickened for 1d4 rounds.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Hey, maybe it's done!

You know, I think we should go CR 1/2.  It's not going to be a big deal for most parties unless the DM happens to attack them while they eat.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Added to Homebrews, and I do believe we're done.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Agreed!


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## Cleon (Nov 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> Agreed!




Finished already? I might as well unveil my version then...


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## Cleon (Nov 21, 2009)

*Lurker Between (Spam Monster)*

*Lurker Between (Spam Monster)*
Diminutive Aberration (Shapechanger)
*Hit* *Dice:* ½d8+3 (5 hp)
*Initiative:* +5
*Speed:* 5 ft. (5 squares), Climb 5 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 20 (+4 size, +5 Dex), touch 20, flat-footed 14
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +0/–17
*Attack:* pseudopod +9 melee (1)
*Full* *Attack:* pseudopod +9 melee (1)
*Space/Reach:* 1 ft./ 0 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Choking hazard, devouring spawn
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 5/–, darkvision 60 ft, immunity to acid, low-light vision, mimic meat, tremorsense 20 ft., scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 1, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 16, Cha 7
*Skills:* Climb +13, Escape Artist +15, Hide +21, Move Silently +13, Listen +2, Spot +2
*Feats:* Ability Focus (choking hazard), Weapon Finesse*(B)*
*Environment:* Underground
*Organization:* Solitary, lunchpack (2-5), picnic (5-20), feast (10-100) or swarm
*Challenge* *Rating:* ½
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Usually neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_The meat explodes into life, becoming a slimy horror trying to force its way into the diner's mouth._

Lurkers between are a bizarre amorphous lifeform related to the mimic and the trapper. They take on the appearance of a piece of meat and wait for a predator or scavenger to attempt to eat them, then try to leap down their opponent's throat and choke the life out of them.

 Lurkers between have a disturbingly amoral cunning resembling a mimic's, although they are not as intelligent as their larger cousins. They are able to change their appearance to match whatever meat they judge is most likely to tempt a victim – anything from uncooked tripe to a gourmet steak. When no large prey is available they imitate a piece of rotten offal and devour whatever carrion-eating vermin are attracted by the smell of decomposition. Lurkers between have been known to sneak into adventurers' backpacks and hide amongst their rations, hoping to attack them during a meal-break.
  
These monsters reproduce by fission, they can rapidly digesting the fresh meat of their victims and convert it into new lurkers between. Even a large animal will be reduced to bones and a hundred of new lurkers between in a matter of hours.

The true form of a lurker between resembles a rectangular slab of finely ground meat of a peculiar bright pink colour with an unnatural pungent odour.

A typical lurker between has a volume of about 18 cubic inches (6 inches by 6 inches by half an inch) and weighs about half a pound.

*Combat*
A lurker between waits until some creature tries to eat it, then strike with its Choking Hazard special attack. If its attack fails or its true nature is discovered before it can strike, it usually assumes the guise of a disgusting rotten piece meat to dissuade attack and tries to slither away into some crack. They often play possum if wounded, hoping their opponent will assume they're dead and leave them be.

*Choking Hazard (Ex):* A lurker between will try to hurl itself down the throat of any creature that tries to hit it with a bite attack. The opponent must succeed at a DC 15 Reflex save or they automatically miss the spam monster with the bite attack. They then must make a DC 15 Constitution check to prevent the lurker between forcing itself down their throat. A lurker between can automatically inflict 1 hit point of damage per round it is in an opponent's mouth or throat. In addition, if it manages to force its way into it's opponent's throat it can cut off their air supply (see Suffocation rules) provided the victim is no more than 4 size categories larger than the lurker (i.e. up to Large size), in which case their throat is simply too wide for a single lurker between to block off.

The victim can try to spit out the lurker between by making Fortitude saves, but this is a standard action and they must make two successful Fortitude saves to completely expel the Lurker. The victim may also attempt a bite attack against the lurker between, but must make another DC15 Reflex save to get the slippery creature in a position it can be attacked. Finally, the victim may attempt to both expel the lurker and make a bite attack against it in the same round as a full-round action. If the victim makes a breath weapon attack against the lurker between it automatically hits, and if the lurker attempts a Reflex check to avoid the breath weapon the opponent is entitled to an additional Fortitude save to expel the lurker as a free action. An ally can use Aid Another to boost the victim's saves, or substitute a Heal skill check for the Fortitude save.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.

*Devouring Spawn (Ex):* If a lurker between kills a victim with its Choking Hazard attack it will start absorbing their flesh and growing. After an hour the lurker between will have doubled in size and splits into 2 new lurkers between, both of which can continue using Devouring Spawn. The lurker between absorbs a pound weight of its victim's flesh for every new lurker it spawns. Thereafter, the lurker betweens will increase in numbers exponentially - 4 lurkers after 2 hours, 8 after 3 hours and so on, a single lurker can become 4000 in just 12 hours, or 16 million in a day, the only limit is the bodyweight of their victim.

*Mimic Meat (Ex):* A lurker between can assume the appearance of any kind of meat - cooked or raw, fresh or rotten, a specific organ, a fine-cut steak or a shapeless mass of blubber. They can also mimic the appearance, texture and odour of processed foodstuffs that are mostly based on meat or fat, such as spam or pemmican. The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though. Anyone who examines the mimic can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check against a DC of 25, with a +4 bonus if they possess the scent special quality. At the DM's discretion they may substitute another skill for the Spot check that matches the meat the lurker between is imitating (e.g. if the lurker between mimics a human liver, then they could use the Heal skill, if it mimics a pork tenderloin than Profession (cook) might be substituted.)

 *Skills*
A lurker between has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks, a +8 racial bonus on Climb and Move Silently checks and a +10 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks. It can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened, and may use either its Dexterity or its Strength bonus on Climb checks.

*Spam Monster Swarm*
Diminutive Aberration (Shapechanger, Swarm)
*Hit* *Dice:* 9d8+27 (67 hp)
*Initiative:* +5
*Speed:* 5 ft. (5 squares), Climb 5 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 20 (+4 size, +5 Dex), touch 20, flat-footed 14
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +6/–
*Attack:* Swarm (1d6)
*Full* *Attack:* Swarm (1d6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./ 0 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Choking hazard, distraction, devouring spawn
*Special* *Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft, immunity to acid, immune to weapon damage, low-light vision, mimic meat, tremorsense 20 ft., scent
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +9
*Abilities:* Str 1, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 16, Cha 7
*Skills:* Climb +13, Escape Artist +15, Hide +21, Move Silently +13, Listen +6, Spot +6
*Feats:* Ability Focus (choking hazard), Ability Focus (distraction), Ability Focus (mimic meat), Great Fortitude, Weapon Finesse*(B)*
*Environment:* Underground
*Organization:* Solitary or shambles (2-12 swarms)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Usually neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_The mound of meat suddenly comes into hideous life, breaking up into a thousand pieces of animate flesh that squirm and flow over each other._

A spam monster swarm is a composite entity made up of hundred or thousands of lurkers between. They typically mimic part of the carcass of some huge animal, such as a beached whale or a dead purple worm and prey upon whatever creatures attempt to scavenge the carcass.

 *Combat*
A spam monster swarm uses similar ambush tactics as individual lurker between, except it need not wait for a victim to bite them but can flow over their bodies and smother them. If the swarm is badly damaged it will break up into its individual creatures and scatter in all directions, possibly reforming after its opponents have left.

*Choking Hazard (Ex):* A spam monster swarm can try to smother any creature in its space. The opponent must succeed at a DC 19 Reflex save or have their noses and throats covered by lurkers between. They then must make a DC 19 Constitution check to prevent the lurker between forcing itself down their throat. A lurker between does double swarm damage (2d6) if it succeeds in entering an opponent's throat. In addition, if the spam monster swarm manages to cover the opponent's nose and mouth it cuts off their air supply (see Suffocation rules).

The victim can try to clear their airways by making Fortitude saves, but this is a standard action and they must make two successful Fortitude saves to completely expel the Lurker if it has managed to enter their throat, but only one if it is just covering their nose and mouth. If the victim makes a breath weapon attack against the lurker between it automatically hits, and if the lurker attempts a Reflex check to avoid the breath weapon the opponent is entitled to an additional Fortitude save to expel the lurker as a free action. An ally can use Aid Another to boost the victim's saves, or substitute a Heal skill check for the Fortitude save.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.

*Devouring Spawn (Ex):* If a spam monster swarm kills a victim with its Choking Hazard attack it will start absorbing their flesh and growing. A spam monster swarm can absorb a creature up to Small size in an hour, a Medium sized creature in 2 hours or a Large creature in 3 hours, each additional size category takes another 3 hours (6 hours for Huge, 9 for Gargantuan and 12 for Colossal). The spam monster swarm creates a new lurker between for every pound weight of its victim's flesh it absorbs. It requires around 3000 pounds of meat to create a new spam monster swarm - the equivalent of several Large creatures or a single Huge creature.

*Distraction (Ex):* Any living creature that begins its turn with a spam monster swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Mimic Meat (Ex):* A spam monster swarm can assume the appearance of any kind of meat - cooked or raw, fresh or rotten, a specific organ, a fine-cut steak or a shapeless mass of blubber. They can also mimic the appearance, texture and odour of processed foodstuffs that are mostly based on meat or fat, such as spam or pemmican. The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though. Anyone who examines the mimic can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check against a DC of 27, with a +4 bonus if they possess the scent special quality. At the DM's discretion they may substitute another skill for the Spot check that matches the meat the lurker between is imitating (e.g. if the lurker between mimics a human liver, then they could use the Heal skill, if it mimics a pork tenderloin than Profession (cook) might be substituted.)

*Skills*
A spam monster swarm has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks, a +8 racial bonus on Climb and Move Silently checks and a +10 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks. It can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened, and may use either its Dexterity or its Strength bonus on Climb checks.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2009)

Ok, that just cracks me up!


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Ok, that just cracks me up!




Glad you enjoyed it Freyar, I will admit it was quite amusing to write. The idea of turning them into a Swarm monster was so hilarious I could not resist it, and I though naming their primary special attack "choking hazard" was pretty funny, too.

Although, as I said before, these monsters actually makes sound ecological sense (at least in D&D terms), especially considering the implausibly high numbers of carnivores and scavengers there are wandering about your typical game world.

Speaking of which, the second paragraph of their description is rather rough, I think I'll edit it to tidy up the wording...


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

It's almost April Fool's Day, and we're a bit short on silliness.  

*Armadillephant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subtropical and tropical jungle and plains
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Herd
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 15 (burrowing 3)
HIT DICE: 12
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16/2-16/2-12/2-12/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (11’ tall)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 3,000

As indicated by its name, the armadillephant is a creature resulting from the magical merging of an elephant and an armadillo. The elephant physiognomy is predominant, with the armadillo’s hardened armor covering the creature. In addition, the armadillo’s sharp, curved burrowing claws appear on the creature’s forelegs, and its armored tail is much longer than a normal elephant’s.

Combat: The mighty armadillephant is a creature created specifically for combat, Combining the attributes of a war elephant and the added protection of an armadillo’s tough outer hide, the armadillephant is able to wade into a pitched battle and take little damage while it dishes out plenty of its own. Each of its two tusks inflicts 2-16 hp damage, while it simultaneously tramples with its two front feet and constricts with its trunk. The three latter attacks each cause 2-12 hp damage.

In addition, armadillephants often carry battle platforms on their backs. These howdahs usually carry the general and his advisors and frequently are equipped with crossbows or other similar ranged weapons, often making the appearance of an armadillephant in the ranks of the enemy a cause for a morale check.

Habitat/Society: Except for their armored skin, armadillephants are indistinguishable from normal (African) elephants. In fact, they are occasionally found in herds of normal elephants, with whom they are capable of breeding (90% of the offspring are standard elephants; 10% are armadillephants). Armadillephants, because of their greater defensive abilities, are often the herd leaders in a mixed herd.

Most armadillephants, however, are created solely for the purpose of combat and so spend their lives in the care of the army for which they fight. The majority of armadillephants are created by the deities of the humanoid races, as gifts for particularly worthy humanoid tribes. Thus, armadillephants are most often ridden into battle by orcs, goblins, gnolls, and the like. A human or demihuman mage can certainly create an armadillephant on his own, but such an act is likely to incur the wrath of various humanoid deities, who consider the creation of such a beast to be their own purview. 

Ecology: Armadillephants are highly prized by the tribes to whom they are given, and the tribes will go to great lengths to keep the beasts happy and healthy. In many cases the armadillephant is valued much higher than that of individual tribal members, a fact that causes some resentment, especially among those assigned to care for the beasts. Of course, this varies from tribe to tribe; in some humanoid armies, the armadillephant handler is a position of great respect.

In addition to being assets during battle, armadillephants are useful in other ways. With the proper training, they can be taught to use their sharp foreclaws to dig trenches, latrines, and pit traps in a fraction of the time it would take a small group of humanoids. A humanoid army with an armadillephant is sure to make use of this ability, so raiders should expect to find a great number of pit traps surrounding the army’s campsites.

Armadillephant meat is quite tasty, although the beast is too highly regarded to be slaughtered for food. However, if an armadillephant is slain in battle, the surviving humanoid troops will certainly take the opportunity to feast well that night. Of course, before devouring armadillephant flesh the band undergoes a ceremony of thanksgiving, thanking their deities for the mighty war beast who first aided them in battle and then made them stronger. It is believed that eating an armadillephant’s heart causes fearlessness in battle; this vital organ is usually reserved for the chieftain. 

As might be expected, armadillephant hide makes excellent armor. While generally too inflexible to be used by smaller races except as shields, hill giants and larger creatures can fashion respectable armor from an armadillephant’s hide. In addition, the hide is often used to form a crude type of barding for normal elephants, giving them added protection in battle. In this way, a slain armadillephant can still benefit its humanoid tribe long after its own death.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #243 (1998).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2010)

OK, we start with an elephant and boost its natural AC. Raise Con a little, drop Dex a bit, perhaps. Switch stomps for claws, add burrow speed. Perhaps a bit of DR/- for the thick armor. This is going to be a magical beast, after all, we can get more elaborate on the SQs (although I think DR/- is perfectly appropriate for some animals--see my ankylosaurs).


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

That looks good, and I agree that DR does not necessitate magical beast in most cases.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2010)

Agreed, though I think the Int and creation definitely say "magical beast" here.


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

Oh, let's go Int 4!

I could see going up to DR 10/-, since they don't have much else.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

Int 4 works for me.  Any other thoughts on the DR?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2010)

The only things with DR 10/- are elementals, and this isn't that tough. DR 5/-


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

That works.  Updated.

Skills: 15
Elephants have Listen and Spot.

Feats: 5
Elephants have Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Listen)


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

Stick with elephant skills and feats plus Power Attack or something melee oriented?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

Since it is specifically bred for war, I'm wondering if we shouldn't replace a few of the feats to enhance its combat potential.  

Perhaps Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Iron Will, Power Attack?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

We need a 5th feat.  Lightning Reflexes?  Weapn Focus on something?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2010)

Not Lightning Reflexes. Stand Still or Weapon Focus (gore)


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2010)

I prefer Stand Still.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary, pair, herd (3-10), or mixed herd (x-x plus 3–10 elephants)

Challenge Rating: x

An armadillephant stands 11 feet tall at the shoulder and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2010)

2-6 for the mixed herd.

They seem around CR 8, maybe a weak 9.

The largest elephant recorded (per wikipedia) was 14ft tall and 26000 lb.  These are a bit shorter, but I think the armor plates are probably pretty dense.  So maybe 20000 to 25000 lb?


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2010)

CR 8 seems right, since they aren't as tough as a CR 9 mastodon.

Updated.   Ready for its April Fool's Day debut in the CC?


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2010)

Send it out, if it's not too late!


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

*Moat Cat*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Aquatic (usually moats)
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or family group
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT:  Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 15, sprint 30, swim 12
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise, rear claws 1-4/1-4
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised only on a 1
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE:  M (4’-5’ long)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: 175

Moat cats are magical crossbreeds of newts and large cats such as cheetahs or mountain lions.  Amphibious, they must keep their skin wet, and thus make perfect guardians for a wizard’s castle moat.

Coloration differs from animal to animal but generally follows that of the newt used in the creature’s creation. Black, red, and brown are common colors for moat cats, but in each case there is often a series of spots of contrasting colors—white mottling on a black-skinned moat cat, for instance, or black mottling on a red one. Gills are located on either side of the head, just behind the jaw. The eyes of a moat cat are in almost all cases cat-like: green, with vertical pupils.

Combat: Moat cats have kept the standard cat-like physiognomy, except for their tails, which are thicker and generally more lizardlike, and their skin, which is sleek and smooth. They attack with their teeth and front claws. If both front claws hit, they may rake with their back claws for an additional 1d4 hp damage each. Moat cats, able to breathe water or air with equal ease, often stay completely submerged, then spring up to attack intruders. Opponents suffer a penalty of -3 to their surprise rolls when this occurs.

Those that flee the moat for the safety of dry land are in for a surprise, as moat cats are not restricted to the water. In fact, they are quite mobile on land, able to reach a speed of 30 for three rounds before tiring. However, after three rounds of sprinting the moat cat must rest up for a full three turns before sprinting again.

Habitat/Society: Since moat cats must remain near water, they are unlikely to travel far from the moats where they are placed. They usually stray only a mile or so, and then only to hunt, returning to the moat to feed and sleep. This inadvertent loyalty keeps the creatures near the wizard’s moat.

Perhaps because of their amphibious nature, moat cats do not need to feed as often as would a great cat of a comparable size. Each adult moat cat requires a sheep or similarly sized creature every other week or so. They are gluttonous during feasting but then become somewhat lethargic during the next day while they digest. One way to try to get past a moat cat is to provide it with food, but this tactic isn’t always successful, as moat cats prefer to hunt down their own food rather than be fed by others. An intruder dumping a slain goat into a moat cat’s moat in the hopes of slipping past it while it eats will probably find the creature ignoring the proffered meal in favor of the intruder himself.

Ecology: Besides being able to breathe water and requiring moisture on their skin to prevent them from drying up (moat cats take 1d6 hp damage every full hour they are out of water), they also lay jellylike eggs in the water. These eggs will hatch into 20-50 (1d4+1 x 10) moat cat cubs, over half of which will end up being devoured by the adults. Usually only 1-4 of a given litter survive to full adulthood.

The “cub” stage of a moat cat’s development is similar to that of the “tadpole” stage of most frogs and toads. As a cub, the moat cat has no limbs, but swims by means of its powerful tail. Moat cat cubs have 1 HD, swim at a speed of 6 and bite for 1-3 hp damage. After a year, they gain another hit die, grow legs, and begin to move about on land. At this point, they will be taught how to hunt by the parents, and by two years of age they will have achieved full adult status. Moat cats have a life span of about 12 to 15 years.

Like true amphibians, moat cats cannot survive in salt water. They will occasionally make their homes in rivers, lakes or ponds, but wizards who create moat cats make them specifically as guard animals for their castle moats.  Moat cats can be trained to some degree, but training must begin at a very early age in order for it to take effect. Most wizards have a few charm monster or hold monster spells ready for use when dealing with their moat cat guardians, to prevent them from attacking expected guests.

 It should be noted that moat cats are silent creatures. Like the newts that are used in their creation, they make no vocalizations, so no great cat’s growl or roar will alert prey to the moat cat’s existence. More often than not, intruders first become aware of the aquatic predator when it pounces up at them—and by then, its usually far too late.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #243 (1998).


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## freyar (Apr 5, 2010)

3HD magical beast (aquatic) with amphibious and water dependent?


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

That sounds about right.   Use physical stats of a cheetah or leopard, but increase Int to 3 or 4 and boost Cha to 8 (like a displacer beast)?

Cheetah: Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Leopard: Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Displacer Beast (L): Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 8


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## Cleon (Apr 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Send it out, if it's not too late!




Dang it, looks like I missed the party!

The Armadillephant looks fine.

Personally, I wouldn't have given it Int 4, since the original had the same Intelligence as an AD&D elephant I'd have just made it Int 2 like the SRD elephant.

The same proviso applies to the Moat Cat. Both leopards and cheetahs have Int 2-4 in 2E, same as the Moat Cat.

Thus I think making it Int 2 like the 3E big cats makes more sense. Besides, newts aren't noted for being smarter than cats, so it wouldn't feel right to me to make a crossbreed of the two smarter than both.

Looking at its AD&D stats they're very similar to those of a Leopard (AC, Move, claw/claw/bite/rake) or a Cheetah (HD, sprint).

So, I'd take a Leopard and modify its stats a bit - add Aquatic, Amphibious and Water Dependent as previously mentioned, together with a Swim speed and a cut-down version of a Cheetah's Sprint SQ.

Monitor Lizards, Snakes and Crocodiles all have Cha 2, so how about averaging that with the Cheetah/Leopard's Cha 6 to give it a Charisma of 4?

I suppose we could tweak the physical stats a bit if we wanted to. Maybe cut down the Dex by a couple of points (since Giant Frogs and the previously mentioned SRD creatures all have lower Dexterity than the big cats). If we do we should up the natural armour a point to compensate on the presumption its skin may be smooth but is thick and tough, like a killer frog.

So I'm suggesting:

Stats as Leopard, plus:

Magical Beast (Aquatic)
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft., swim 30 ft.
*AC:* 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
*Abilities:* Str 16, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Special Qualities:* Amphibious, low-light vision, scent, sprint, water dependent
*Feats:* Alertness, Multiattack


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

Sounds reasonable.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Added rake because of this:



> SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise, rear claws 1-4/1-4




"Surprise" usually involves a racial bonus on Hide and/or Move Silently checks, plus Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.



> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised only on a 1




This usually equats to a racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks and/or Alertness as a bonus feat.



> Moat cats, able to breathe water or air with equal ease, often stay completely submerged, then spring up to attack intruders. Opponents suffer a penalty of -3 to their surprise rolls when this occurs.




This further supports the Hide and/or Move Silently bonus.



> It should be noted that moat cats are silent creatures. Like the newts that are used in their creation, they make no vocalizations, so no great cat’s growl or roar will alert prey to the moat cat’s existence. More often than not, intruders first become aware of the aquatic predator when it pounces up at them—and by then, its usually far too late.




And even further support for a decent Move Silently bonus.



> Like true amphibians, moat cats cannot survive in salt water.




Convert this ability to "saltwater sensitivity"?

Freshwater Sensitivity (Ex): A sahuagin fully immersed in fresh water must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Even on a success, it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sounds reasonable.




Right-ho.

Now what about the Sprint. They aren't as fast as AD&D Cheetah's (Move 30 vs Move 45), so how much slower do we want them?

Six times instead of the Cheetah's ten times?

*Sprint:* Once per hour, a moat cat can move six times its normal speed (240 feet) when  it makes a charge.


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Added rake because of this:
> 
> ...




All the above was included in my assumption of "Stats as Leopard, plus".

I was also presuming they'd have Improved Grab and Pounce like the SRD Leopard as well.



Shade said:


> Convert this ability to "saltwater sensitivity"?
> 
> Freshwater Sensitivity (Ex): A sahuagin fully immersed in fresh water must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Even on a success, it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.




Makes sense, just swap the names around:

*Saltwater Sensitivity (Ex):* A moat cat fully immersed in saltwater  must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Even on a  success, it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains  immersed.

Do we want to keep the Water Dependency at 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution like a sahuagin or make the period shorter? It says "they usually stray only a mile or so", so maybe they can't stay out of water that long? They'd only need a couple of hours in the dry to travel that far.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> All the above was included in my assumption of "Stats as Leopard, plus".




Ahh...gotcha.

Updated.

I'd recommend increasing the Move Silently bonus to +8, since they seem even more silent than leopards based on the emphasis in the text.



Cleon said:


> Do we want to keep the Water Dependency at 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution like a sahuagin or make the period shorter? It says "they usually stray only a mile or so", so maybe they can't stay out of water that long? They'd only need a couple of hours in the dry to travel that far.




I'm fine with keeping it the same, or simply making it flat 2 hours.  I have no strong feelings either way.


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## Cleon (Apr 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Ahh...gotcha.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> I'd recommend increasing the Move Silently bonus to +8, since they seem even more silent than leopards based on the emphasis in the text.




I prefer a +4 racial like a Leopard.

Leopards in the 2E Monstrous Manual get -3 on their surprise roll, just like moat cats, so I would give them the same modifiers in 3E as well.



Shade said:


> I'm fine with keeping it the same, or simply making it flat 2 hours.  I have no strong feelings either way.




A flat 2 hours if a fine solution. Let's do that.

What damage shall they suffer once the time runs out?

A creature suffering from thirst must make Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take  1d6 points of nonlethal.

Knock out the Con checks and just make it 1d6 nonlethal damage per hour?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2010)

You've convinced me on the Move Silently bonus, and the 1d6 nonlethal/hour seems elegant.

Updated.

Skills: 6

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative (B), Multiattack?

Environment: Freshwater aquatic?

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

A moat cat is 4 to 5 feet long and weighs x to x pounds.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2010)

Split ranks between Spot and Listen?

Feats and environment seem good.

CR 2, I guess.

4-5 HD (Medium) like a leopard?

100-150 lb?


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2010)

Updated.

Do we need a "training a moat cat" section?


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2010)

Maybe.  I don't get the feeling from the original that they're really trained, instead just let loose to do their natural territorial thing.  But I guess whoever's employing them would need a way to get past.  I guess I'd say no, but I'm willing to be persuaded that we do.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2010)

I tend to agree.  Let's move on to the next one, but we can revisit the training option if anyone thinks it is necessary.

*Spider-horse*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any, but usually mountainous
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING:1
ARMOR CLASS: 17
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 3+3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/1-4 or 1-3/1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Webbing
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L
MORALE: Average (9-10)
XP VALUE: 175

Spider-horses, as the name suggests, are magical crossbreeds of a riding horse and a giant spider. The body is primarily horse-like, although a spidery abdomen, complete with spinnerets, sticks out at the end. Four of the spiderhorse’s legs are horse-like, down to the hooves, while four more spider-like legs grow out of the horse-body. The spider legs are situated between the front and rear horse legs. The head is equine in nature, except for the eight eyes, all of which are compound.

Combat: A spider-horse attacks with either set of its front legs, whichever ones aren’t being used for balance. Its hoofed horse-legs each strike for 1-4 hp bludgeoning damage, while its clawed, spidery legs slash for 1-3 hp each. Optionally, the spider-horse can shoot a strand of webbing at a single opponent, then reel him in with its front spiderlegs. Treat a spider-horse’s web-strand attack as a roper’s strand attack, without the roper’s magical Strength drain.

Since spider-horses have four normal hooves, they can be fitted with magical horseshoes, such as horseshoes of speed or horseshoes of a zephyr. In either case, the magical effects of the horseshoes only occur when the spider-horse is traveling on its horse-legs. It does not, for instance, gain a higher movement rate while using its spider-legs to climb up a cliff face simply because it has horseshoes of speed on its hooves.

Because of the unusual shape of the spider-horse’s body, and its requirement to have its spider-legs flexible and free, standard horse barding cannot be used on a spider-horse. It might be possible to modify horse barding or have barding custom made, but this would at least triple the price. 

Habitat/Society: Spider-horses, for reasons still unknown to wizards, cannot reproduce. The magic employed to merge the two beings renders the newly-created being sterile. Therefore, spider-horses usually live a solitary existence. Their spidery bodies often make standard horses skittish and nervous around them. However, this often makes them more emotionally attached to their masters, which wizards agree is a good thing. Nonetheless, wizards are currently experimenting on ways to correct this defect, in the hopes of creating spider-horses able to reproduce on their own.

Ecology: Spider-horses are usually created as riding mounts by wizards living in rough, mountainous terrain. Spiderhorses are able to move about on either of their sets of four legs, running like a horse with their horse-legs (during which time their spider-legs are tucked under their bodies), or using their longer spider-legs to climb up or down steep surfaces such as sheer cliffs. Wizards employing spider-horses as mounts have intricately-buckled saddles which hold the rider in place during such steep ascents and descents. Because of the differences between spider-horses and normal horses, and between the kinds of gear needed to ride them, a separate proficiency is required to ride a spider-horse. This is the riding land-based proficiency, with spider-horse selected as the specified creature. Anyone attempting to ride a spider-horse with a riding proficiency geared toward normal horses is likely to end up being pitched head over heels at the first steep ascent or descent, although they could probably get by as long as the spiderhorse kept to level terrain.

Besides their ability to travel where normal horses cannot, the spider-horse is prized for its ability to spin webs. A single web-line can be used to help lower the creature and its rider down a mountain slope, or the spider-horse can make an intricate web like those of a standard spider. A lone rider can often sleep easier knowing his faithful spider-horse steed has created walls of sticky webs around his master (essentially, weaving a “tent” in which the wizard can sleep). Because spider-horses cannot close their compound eyes, they are peripherally aware of their surroundings even when sleeping and can awaken at a moments notice, sounding a warning to their masters in case of trouble. Any creatures caught in a spider-horse’s web are left alone by the creature, who is strictly herbivorous. While it is not understood why spider-horses do not retain the venomous bites of the giant spiders used to create them, most wizards are happy ‘enough with the beneficial traits.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #243 (1998).


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## freyar (Apr 10, 2010)

Errr, these are weird.  Pick physical stats in between a horse and a Large monstrous spider to start?


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Maybe.  I don't get the feeling from the original that they're really trained, instead just let loose to do their natural territorial thing.  But I guess whoever's employing them would need a way to get past.  I guess I'd say no, but I'm willing to be persuaded that we do.




I don't think they're trained as such - it wouldn't say their wizard masters use charm monster to control them if they were tamable.

The stats all look good, so I'm fine with moving on.


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Errr, these are weird.  Pick physical stats in between a horse and a Large monstrous spider to start?




Yes, I'd start by averaging a Light Warhorse's stats with a Giant Spider's. that's basically what the Dragon magazine article did, after all.

*Light Warhorse* - 3HD, Spd 60 ft., Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6, NA +4.
*Large Spider (Hunting)* - 4HD, Spd 40 ft., climb 20 ft., Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 0,  Wis 10, Cha 2, NA +2.

*Spider-Horse* - 3HD, Spd 50 ft., climb 20 ft., Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 1,  Wis 11, Cha 4, NA +3.


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## Cleon (Apr 11, 2010)

Hold on, I spoke too soon about the Moat Cat's stats being OK.

They're got an AC19 (should be 15) and a  Space/Reach of 15ft./10ft. (should be 5/5).

Probably a holdover from copying the Armadillephant's stats.

The rest of it's OK,  though.


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## Cleon (Apr 11, 2010)

Oh, further on the Moat Cats. I whipped up stats for the immature versions too, based on the few stats it gives for the 2HD juveniles and the 1HD cubs. I tweaked the Cubs movement, since I didn't think it made sense for a tadpole-kitten to have a much slower swim speed than a adult. If anything, it's better shaped for swimming.

*Moat Cat, Juvenile*
Small Magical Beast (Aquatic)
*Hit Dice:* 2d10+2 (11 hp)
*Initiative:* +7
*Speed:* 30 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft., swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/-1
*Attack:* Claw +6 melee (1d2+1)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +6 melee (1d2+1) and bite +4 melee (1d4)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d2
*Special Qualities:* Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, saltwater sensitivity, scent, water dependent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 12, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +10, Jump +9, Listen +6, Move Silently +7, Spot +6, Swim +11
*Feats:* Improved Initiative (B), Multiattack, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Freshwater aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or family (3-4)
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3-5 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* — 

_This creature resembles a large cat, except its tail is thick and lizardlike. Its spotted skin is sleek and smooth, and a set of gills can  be seen behind its jaws._

A juvenile moat cat is 2 to 3 feet long and weighs 20 to 50 pounds.  Coloration varies from black to red to brown, with a series of spots of contrasting  colors (white mottling on black, black mottling on a red, and so forth). Eye  coloration is nearly always green.

*COMBAT*

Moat cats generally lie in wait completely submerged, then spring up to  attack intruders. They savage foes much like a leopard, pouncing and raking  with its hind claws.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a moat cat must hit with  its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action  without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a moat cat charges a foe, it can make a full  attack, including two rake attacks.

*Rake (Ex):* Attack bonus +4 melee, damage 1d2. A juvenile moat cat  also gains two rake attacks when it attacks while swimming.

*Saltwater Sensitivity (Ex):* A moat cat fully immersed in  saltwater must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Even on a success,  it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.

*Water Dependent (Ex):* A juvenile moat cat can survive out of the  water for up to an hour. After that, the moat cat suffers 1d6 points of  nonlethal damage per hour until it reenters water.

*Skills:* Moat cats have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move  Silently checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, and Jump checks. A moat  cat has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10  on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. A moat cat has a +8 racial  bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can  always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It  can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


*Moat Cat, Cub*
Tiny Magical Beast (Aquatic)
*Hit Dice:* 1d10+1 (6 hp)
*Initiative:* +7
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/-8
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d3-1)
*Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d3-1)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, saltwater sensitivity, scent, water dependent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 8, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +13, Jump +7, Listen +6, Move Silently +7, Spot +6, Swim +11
*Feats:* Improved Initiative (B), Multiattack, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Freshwater aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or family (3-4)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/6
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 2 HD (Small); 3-5 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* — 

_Uncannily like a tadpole with the head like a kitten, this weird  creature is as long as a human’s forearm. Its spotted skin is sleek and smooth.
_
A moat cat cub is 1 to 1½ feet long and weighs 5 to 8 pounds. Coloration  varies from black to red to brown, with a series of spots of contrasting colors  (white mottling on black, black mottling on a red, and so forth). Eye  coloration is nearly always green.

*COMBAT*
Moat cat cubs simply swim up to prey and grab them in their jaws.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a moat cat must hit with  its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action  without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it  establishes a hold.

*Saltwater Sensitivity (Ex):* A moat cat fully immersed in  saltwater must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Even on a success,  it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.

*Skills:* Moat cats have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move  Silently checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, and Jump checks. A moat  cat has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10  on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. A moat cat has a +8 racial  bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can  always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It  can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

I've been surrounded by moat cats! 




Spider horse stats look fine enough.


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## Cleon (Apr 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Spider horse stats look fine enough.




Ta! I'll try to flesh it out a bit more.

*Spider-Horse*
Large Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 3d10+9 (25 hp)
*Initiative:*  +1
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor  Class:* 13 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+10
*Attack:* Hoof +5 melee  (1d4+3) or web +3 ranged touch (special)
*Full Attack:* 2 hooves +5 melee (1d4+3) and 2 claws +0  melee (1d3+1); or web +3 ranged touch (special)
 *Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Web
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, tremorsense 60 ft.
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6 
 *Skills:* *6* [Climb +11, Hide +1, Jump +11, Listen +6, Spot +6?]
*Feats:* *2* [Endurance, Run?]
*Environment:* *Temperate forests and plains?*
*Organization:* *Domesticated?*
 *Challenge Rating:* *2*?
*Treasure:*  None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4-6  HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Web (Ex):* A spider-horse can lower itself silently on silk strands, a single strand is strong enough to support the spider-horse and one creature of the same size.

A spider-horse can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful DC Escape Artist check or burst it with a DC Strength check. Both are standard actions. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

*Carrying Capacity:* A light load for a spider-horse is up to 230 pounds; a medium load,  231-460 pounds; and a heavy load, 461-690 pounds. A spider-horse can  drag 3,450 pounds. 

*Skills:* Spider-horses have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A spider-horse can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Spider-horses use either their  Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks,  whichever is higher.

For its skill points I'm thinking 5 in Listen, 1 in Spot, which would give it:

*Skills:* Climb +11, Hide +1, Jump +11, Listen +6, Spot +6


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## freyar (Apr 13, 2010)

I like it!  My only suggested change would be to switch claws to primary and hoofs to secondary, but that's a matter of taste.

Why is Jump so high?  Did you mean to include a racial bonus?
Feats seem appropriate, and CR 2 is probably about right.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2010)

Looking good, although I agree with freyar that claws should be primary.   

Also, I think we should swap one of the feats (or make one a bonus feat) in order to add Multiattack.  Maybe Run as a bonus feat?

Jump is high due to the speed bonus (+8).

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> I like it!  My only suggested change would be to switch claws to primary and hoofs to secondary, but that's a matter of taste.




What? Make the lower damage attack primary?! That would never do!



freyar said:


> Why is Jump so high?  Did you mean to include a racial bonus?
> Feats seem appropriate, and CR 2 is probably about right.




Jump has a speed modifier remember, +4 for every 10 ft. above 30 ft. That's +8 and it gets +3 from Str.

I did consider adding a racial bonus on top of that, since Hunting Spiders's +10 on Jump. However, even half that racial bonus on Jump checks (+5)  and it'd be routinely making 25 foot leaps with its +16 Jump skill. That seems a bit too much.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

Cleon said:


> What? Make the lower damage attack primary?! That would never do!




It's been done before.  

Thoughts on adding Multiattack and making Run a bonus feat?

A typical spider-horse grows to 8 feet in length, stands 5 feet high at the shoulder, and weighs 1,200 pounds?


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2010)

Multiattack with Run as a bonus sounds good to me.

Size sounds right.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> It's been done before.
> 
> Thoughts on adding Multiattack and making Run a bonus feat?
> 
> A typical spider-horse grows to 8 feet in length, stands 5 feet high at the shoulder, and weighs 1,200 pounds?




I'd rather not give them Multiattack.

The original spider-horse seems to be a peaceable herbivore like a horse, and it couldn't use its hooves and spider-legs to attack in the same round.

The height and weight are good though.

Oh, and I still prefer the hooves for its primary attack.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2010)

I'll surrender Multiattack in exchange for the claws as primary attack.  

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2010)

I'm happy with it.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

*Venom Dog, Viper*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: Variable
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 3+3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S-M (3-5’)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 270

*Venom Dog, Scorpion*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4+4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8/1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (4-6’)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 420

Venom dogs are greatly valued by wizards, as they are loyal, easy to train, and highly dangerous. Two types exist: the smaller is a merging of a pit viper and a mastiff; the larger, a mastiff and a huge scorpion. Both primarily retain the dogs physiognomy, but the smaller gains both the scales and the fangs of the pit viper, while the larger looks like a regular dog except for the large, venom-tipped scorpion tail rising from its hindquarters. Coloration ranges from a glistening black to tan for the “viper” venom dog, while the only difference between a “scorpion” venom dogs coloration and that of a normal dog is its tail, which can be either red, brown, or black.

Combat: Venom dogs bite for 2d4 hp damage. In addition, the bite of a “viper” venom dog is poisonous, causing the victim to save vs. poison at +2 or be slain the next round. Like pit vipers, these creatures have heat-sensitive organs on their snouts that gives them the equivalent of 30’ infravision. “Scorpion” venom dogs get two attacks per round: a (nonpoisonous) bite and a tail-stinger attack. These creatures can attack two different opponents each round, or concentrate both attacks on a single victim. Opponents hit by the stinger suffer 1-3 hp damage and must save vs. poison or die the next round.

Habitat/Society: Like normal domesticated dogs, venom dogs live to serve their masters. They are quite easily trained, a fact that makes them very desirable and quite valuable (venom dog puppies of either type can go for as high as 3,000 gp on the open market). Of course, special precautions must be taken while they are being trained due to their poisonous nature. However, it is this ability to poison enemies that makes these creatures so valuable as watchdogs. They live for about 15 years.

Ecology: “Viper” venom dogs are strictly carnivorous and swallow their prey whole in the fashion of snakes. Also like snakes, they require much less food than a normal dog, being content with a decent meal every few weeks. This makes caring for viper venom dogs relatively inexpensive.  “Scorpion” venom dogs have normal, canine heads and teeth, and thus eat the same things any normal dog eats.

“Viper” venom dogs share many traits with the serpents from which they get half of their heritage. Because of their reptilian nature, “viper” venom dogs must shed their skin periodically as they grow in size. Unlike true serpents, these skins do not cover the creature’s eyes—“viper” venom dogs have standard canine eyes and eyelids as well. However, like many serpents, they do lay leathery eggs from which the venom dog puppies hatch. While warm-blooded, “viper” venom dogs do enjoy basking in the sun like many reptiles. 

While looking the least like normal dogs, the scalecovered “viper” venom dogs maintain a disposition most similar to that of the standard canine. Thus, they can be raised in litters and trained to work together. “Scorpion” venom dogs, however, tend to be loners. They viciously attack other members of their own species except during mating season. Therefore, it is uncommon to see more than one of these creatures at a time, and a wizard owning and raising several “scorpion” venom dogs must make special arrangements to keep them separated.

“Scorpion” venom dogs are not immune to the effects of their own poison, nor to the poison of giant scorpions or scorpion-like creatures. Of the two types of venom dog, the “scorpion” is the only one able to bark like a dog, and is therefore a better guardian when it comes to alerting its masters of trouble. “Viper” venom dogs are capable only of a reptilian hiss, although the volume of the hiss can get rather high when the dogs are excited. 

Venom dogs of either type are highly desirable as animal followers to rangers, although the opportunities of coming across one of these creatures in the wild are negligible. This is because nearly all venom dogs are specifically created as watchdogs, either for the Wizards themselves or for a particular client who wishes to purchase one. Venom dogs are treated well by their masters, so the chances of one escaping to the wild are slim. For this reason, a ranger wishing a venom dog is more than likely going to have to go out and buy one from a wizard like everyone else.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #243 (1998).


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

These should be pretty simple.  Make 'em magical beasts with the listed HD?  Use the dog stats (for viper) and riding dog stats (for scorpion)?  Increase mental scores (at least Int), since these were intended to be smarter than mere animals?   Add venom, and the stinger attack to the scorpion dog.


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2010)

I agree to all that.  Probably need two separate listings, since they don't seem very similar other than the name.

They don't seem terribly funny, though.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

Yeah, most of the creatures in this article aren't too hilarious.  I'll choose better after we finish 'em off!

Two entries makes sense.

Added viper venom dog to Homebrews.

I borrowed the venom of a viper.

A dog has +1 natural armor, while a Small viper has +3.  Its AC translates to 16, so +2 NA would fit nicely with its +3 Dex and +1 size bonus.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

Added scorpion venom dog to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'll surrender Multiattack in exchange for the claws as primary attack.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




I'd rather give it Multiattack in exchange for keeping hooves as primary attack, although I prefer it without a bonus feat.

Different strokes for different folks, eh?

It's OK as is, though.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, most of the creatures in this article aren't too hilarious.  I'll choose better after we finish 'em off!
> 
> Two entries makes sense.
> 
> ...




Yes, separate entries seems the way to go.

Shall we do the venom dog first?

The proposed stats look good.

Do we want to give it some of a Viper's skills as well as a dog's?

*Dog Skills:* Jump +7, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +1*
Racial - +4 to Jump, +4 Survival to Track by scent
*Small Viper Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +15, Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +6
Racial - +8 Balance, Climb and Swim; +4 to Hide, Listen and Spot, take 10 on Climb.

Methinks I'd like to give it a Dog's skills, with the 2 extra skill ranks in Balance and Hide (so they're sneaky like a snake).

Since they have canine bodies I don't feel they should have a snake's climbing ability or racial bonus, although I would be OK with a reduced racial bonus on Balance and Swim.

*Viper Venom Dog*
Ranks - Balance 1, Jump 0, Hide 1, Listen 2, Spot 2, Survival 0, Swim 0
Racial - +4 to Balance, Jump, Hide, Listen, Spot and Swim, +4 Survival to Track by scent
*Skills:* Balance +8, Jump +7, Hide +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +1* (+5 to Track by scent), Swim +5 [Includes Alertness feat]

As for the feats, since they get 2 feats from their 3 HD I'd just give them the dog's Alertness and the Viper's Improved Initiative, plus the Track and Weapon Finesse bonus feats they have.

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B).

That would change their stats so:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm*Venom Dog, Viper*
Initiative: +7
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d4+1 plus poison)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d4+1 plus poison)
Skills: Balance +8, Jump +7, Hide +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +1* (+5 to  Track by scent), Swim +5
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B).


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather give it Multiattack in exchange for keeping hooves as primary attack, although I prefer it without a bonus feat.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks, eh?
> 
> It's OK as is, though.




Spoke too soon!

There are a couple of mispellings - "between" in "_Two pairs of spider-like legs sprout betwen the usual four hooved  legs._" and "beneficial" in the following paragraphs "  Its ability to spin webs also prove benefitial".


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2010)

I fixed the typos in the spider-horse.

The proposed feats and skills for the venom dog appeal.  You forgot the +4 speed bonus for Jump checks and the +4 size bonus for Hide checks, but I added 'em to the Update.


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2010)

Any other special abilities here?  If not, maybe a tough-ish CR 2.  Organization: kennel? pack? (4-8)?  Urban environment?


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## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> I fixed the typos in the spider-horse.
> 
> The proposed feats and skills for the venom dog appeal.  You forgot the +4 speed bonus for Jump checks and the +4 size bonus for Hide checks, but I added 'em to the Update.




Oops!

What do you fancy for Environment?

Neither a Viper's marshes or a Dog's plains seem right, so I suppose "Any land" to match the original.

Challenge Rating looks like 2 to me, mainly for its nasty venom.

SRD Dogs and Tiny to Large Vipers don't get Advancement, so I suppose Viper Dogs shouldn't either.

That's it apart from flavour & tactics.


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

Updated.

Should we add a Training section?



> Venom dogs are greatly valued by wizards, as they are loyal, easy to train, and highly dangerous.






> Like normal domesticated dogs, venom dogs live to serve their masters. They are quite easily trained, a fact that makes them very desirable and quite valuable (venom dog puppies of either type can go for as high as 3,000 gp on the open market). Of course, special precautions must be taken while they are being trained due to their poisonous nature. However, it is this ability to poison enemies that makes these creatures so valuable as watchdogs.






> Venom dogs of either type are highly desirable as animal followers to rangers, although the opportunities of coming across one of these creatures in the wild are negligible. This is because nearly all venom dogs are specifically created as watchdogs, either for the Wizards themselves or for a particular client who wishes to purchase one. Venom dogs are treated well by their masters, so the chances of one escaping to the wild are slim. For this reason, a ranger wishing a venom dog is more than likely going to have to go out and buy one from a wizard like everyone else.


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## Cleon (Apr 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Should we add a Training section?




We can just say they're as easy to train as dogs, so use the standard Handle Animal rules. They don't appear to need Diplomacy checks before training like some magical beasts, they're already "friendly".

Do we need a cost for trained adults, puppies and eggs?


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

So essentially, they are treated as animals, rather than magical beasts, for the training, and don't raise the DC by 4?   I could see that.

Yeah, we should have prices for the pups, eggs, and trained adults.


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm not sure I like any land for environment, since they're supposed to be quite rare when not domesticated, but I guess I can go with that.  Now that I look through the animals in the SRD, I think we should probably stick to just domesticated for the org, too.  

I'd also agree to treating them as animals for training.  For the price, we can compare to the hippogriff, also CR 2:


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Hippogriff eggs are worth 2,000 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 3,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a hippogriff.



Since venom dogs can't fly you around, I'd go with a slightly lower price, maybe 1000 gp for an egg, 2000 for a pup, 1000 for training, and 3000 for a trained adult?  Could maybe still drop that a little.


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## Shade (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm fine with leaving it simply as "Domesticated".

The elven hound (2 HD, CR 1) costs 150 gp for a pup and 500 gp for a fully-trained specimen. 

Climbdog (2 HD, CR 1) pups are worth 30 gp on the open market. Professional trainers charge 125 gp to rear or train a climbdog.

Deep hound (6 HD, CR 4) pups are worth 4,000 gp on the open market. Professional trainers charge 250 gp to train a deep hound.


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, I guess we should go in between here.  How about 150 for an egg, 300 for a pup, and 200 to train?


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

That works for me!

Updated.

Back to the scorpion dog?


----------



## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

Ready!  What else do these need? Just skills and feats?


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

Pretty much.  We'll also need Advancement and weight range.


----------



## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

Any reason to give them different feats (other than dropping Weapon Finesse)?  A similar skill mix would probably work too.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

Probably not.

A monstrous scorpion has a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Spot checks.  Do we want to retain any of that?  I'm guessing "no" for Climb and Hide, since they don't possess scorpionlike legs or coloration, but I could see the Spot bonus.


----------



## freyar (Apr 23, 2010)

I'll agree with that: bonus to Spot but not Climb or Hide.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

So...

Skills: Scorpion venom dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump and Spot. *Scorpion venom dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

7 ranks:  Listen 3, Spot 4?


----------



## freyar (Apr 23, 2010)

Agreed!


----------



## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, I guess we should go in between here.  How about 150 for an egg, 300 for a pup, and 200 to train?




That seems too cheap for a poison-attacking creature you can sic on your enemies. 

I'd prefer something like 400 gp for an egg, 800 for a pup, 200 for training, and 1000 gp for a fully trained dog.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> So...
> 
> Skills: Scorpion venom dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump and Spot. *Scorpion venom dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.
> 
> 7 ranks:  Listen 3, Spot 4?




That and giving it Alertness, Improved Initiative, Track (B) all sounds good.

I wouldn't mind increasing the poison damage to 1d6/1d6 Con like the Viper Venom Dog, since the original has "save vs. poison or die".


----------



## freyar (Apr 24, 2010)

Cleon said:


> That seems too cheap for a poison-attacking creature you can sic on your enemies.
> 
> I'd prefer something like 400 gp for an egg, 800 for a pup, 200 for training, and 1000 gp for a fully trained dog.




Raising the price is ok by me; estimation by CR is tricky.



Cleon said:


> That and giving it Alertness, Improved Initiative, Track (B) all sounds good.
> 
> I wouldn't mind increasing the poison damage to 1d6/1d6 Con like the Viper Venom Dog, since the original has "save vs. poison or die".




Agreed to those feats, too. I'll agree to the poison increase, and we should double check that the save DCs are a little harder than for the viper, since the original text said you save at +2 vs the viper venom dog poison but not the scorpion venom dog poison. 

(Boy, that was a mouthful.)


----------



## Cleon (Apr 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Raising the price is ok by me; estimation by CR is tricky.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed to those feats, too. I'll agree to the poison increase, and we should double check that the save DCs are a little harder than for the viper, since the original text said you save at +2 vs the viper venom dog poison but not the scorpion venom dog poison.




At the moment the Scorpion Dog's venom DC is a point better due to its higher hit dice. If we want it higher we could tweak the Con a bit.

A Small Viper has Con 11, a Dog Con 15
A Medium Scorpion has Con 14, a Riding Dog Con 15

Averaging those would give a Viper Dog Con 13 and a Scorpion Dog Con 15 (well, Con 14.5 but who's counting).

Dropping the Viper Dog's Con to 13 would make its venom DC 2 lower than the Scorpion Dog.

How about it?


----------



## freyar (Apr 26, 2010)

That's fine, or we can increase the scorpion dog's Con, as Huge scorpions have Con 16.


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2010)

Sure, the increase in price for the viper dog's eggs, pups, and training makes sense. Updated.

I'd rather boost the scorpion dog's Con, or give it a racial bonus, rather than reducing the viper dog's Con.

Let's not change the poison.  For starters, giant scorpions in past editions had "save or die" poison, and now no longer do so.  And, more importantly, since the creature is clearly created by merging a monstrous scorpion and a dog, the additional venom potency doesn't really make sense.

Updated with the skills and feats, but left the above two bits open to debate.


----------



## freyar (Apr 26, 2010)

Let's go with a +2 racial bonus to the scorpion dog poison DC.  As for the damage, I'm kind of ambivalent.  We could go with 1d4/1d4 as a compromise (that's like a large monstrous scorpion, for whatever that's worth).


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's go with a +2 racial bonus to the scorpion dog poison DC.  As for the damage, I'm kind of ambivalent.  We could go with 1d4/1d4 as a compromise (that's like a large monstrous scorpion, for whatever that's worth).




I would go along with +2 racial and 1d4/1d4 Con.


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## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

Updated.

Environment: Any land?

Challenge Rating: 3?

Advancement: x

A scorpion venom dog is 4 to 6 feet long and weighs x to x pounds.  (100 to 300?)


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm fine with all the suggestions and advancement - like the viper dog.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2010)

In that case, all that remains is the training section.   These aren't as easy to train, so should entail the usual +4 DC boost for being a magical beast.   Suggested prices for pups and training?  (I don't believe these lay eggs)


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

Agreed on the +4 magical beast DC boost.  Increase prices by a factor of 2 to correspond to the increased CR?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




This all looks good to me except I think the maximum weight is too high for a typical venom dog.

Apart from the scorpion tails these beasts are the size (and presumably weight) of a mastiff, and a large dog very seldom weighs more than 150-175 pounds, or about the weight of a man.

I'd change the weight range to 100-200 pounds.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

Fair enough!  Updated.


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## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fair enough!  Updated.




They're done then!


----------



## freyar (Apr 30, 2010)

I think so too!


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## Cleon (May 1, 2010)

So are we doing the Dragonfly Turtle next?

Of Dragon #243's remaining crossbreeds it looks more interesting than a duckbunny.


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## freyar (May 2, 2010)

That could be fun, or we might need to save it for next April.


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## Cleon (May 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> That could be fun, or we might need to save it for next April.




Is our stockpile of goofy monsters running low then?

I thought our supply was almost boundless, this is D&D after all.

Anyhow, I'd prefer doing the rest of that Dragon magazine's hybrid beasts sooner rather than later. Not sure I could sustain the anticipation for a whole year...


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## Shade (May 3, 2010)

Let's finish 'em.  Despite the fact that silliness doesn't have to be contained to April, these hybrids haven't been all that humorous for the most part, anyway, and it's satisfying to finish off a set.  

*Dragonfly Turtle*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0/3
MOVEMENT: 3, fly 36 (C)
HIT DICE: 8 (adult)
THAC0: 1-2 HD: 19 5-6 HD: 15
3-4 HD: 17 7-8 HD: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4,2-8, or 3-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES:  Hide limbs
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE:
1 HD: 35 5 HD: 420
2 HD: 65 6 HD: 650
3 HD: 120 7 HD: 975
4 HD: 270 8 HD: 1,400

Also known as “hovershells,” these creatures are a mix between a giant turtle and a giant dragonfly. They retain the turtle’s shell and limbs but sport the dragonfly’s head and wings. These creatures are highly valued as flying mounts.

Adding to the creature’s already bizarre appearance are the frequent “modifications” on its shell. To make it a more comfortable mode of travel, wizards often apply sovereign glue to the shell, attaching such things as chairs, chests, and the like. Dragonfly turtles are quite a sight, buzzing through the air with their legs pulled into their shells, ridden by a wizard seated comfortably on a padded chair mounted to the creature’s shell.

While dragonfly turtles do not understand the concept of treasure, there are often valuables in the furniture glued to them. The type of treasure, if any, varies on a case-by-case basis depending upon the needs and habits of the wizard using the dragonfly turtle as a riding mount. For obvious reasons, any chests making up part of a dragonfly turtle’s “furniture” are equipped with strong locks to prevent them from being accidentally opened while in flight.

Combat: The dragonfly turtle’s only attack is with its razorsharp mandibles, which cause 3d4 hp damage per round. Because of their large, heavy turtle shells, these creatures are not as maneuverable as the giant dragonfly, dropping down to maneuverability class C. While they can hover in place and fly as fast as a giant dragonfly, they are unable to dodge missiles as the giant insect can. Fortunately, their thick armored carapace protects them. The head and wings of a dragonfly turtle are AC 3; the armored shell is AC 0. 

The wings of these creatures are gauzy and fragile; hitting one in combat requires a called shot, but once any of the creatures four wings suffers 4 hp damage, that wing is destroyed, and the dragonfly turtle is unable to fly, plummeting to the ground if airborne. Wing damage is calculated separately, as damage to the wings does not injure the beast.

Of course, as dragonfly turtles are used primarily as a means of transportation, anyone in combat with one of these creatures most likely must fight the person or persons riding aboard the beast. A dragonfly turtle’s hovering ability makes it a relatively stable platform, allowing missile weapons and spells to be used from the creature’s back without penalty.

Habitat/Society: Dragonfly turtles are a new race, purposely created by wizards as a means of transportation. As such, they are almost never encountered in the wild. Rather, they are kept in comfortable “stables” until needed. Because of their rather limited intelligence, dragonfly turtles will not seek to escape confinement as long as they cannot see outside; any barn-like structure will do to keep them in one place. If they must be “parked” outside, a strong chain is necessary, as they easily chew through even the strongest rope. They are intelligent enough to obey simple commands if properly trained: dragonfly turtles are controlled by a bridle and reins.

Ecology: If a wizard creates a male and a female of these creatures, they can be induced to mate. (Mating is a much simpler procedure for the beasts if there’s no “furniture” glued to the female’s shell, however.) The female lays 2-5 (1d4+1) leathery eggs that hatch in about 4 months. Newlyhatched dragonfly turtles are wingless and aquatic, able to swim at a movement rate of 3. They are about 3’ long when born, have 1 HD, and can bite for 1d4 points of damage.

Each year thereafter they grow 1 HD and 1’ in length, adding 1d4 to their bite damage every three years, until they do full damage (3d4) when 6 years old. Their wings grow in when they reach 4 years of age, at which point they stop swimming (their wings don’t function well when wet). Dragonfly turtles live about 20 years. Their diet consists mainly of insects captured in flight and fish, although they also ingest small quantities of plant matter (especially algae).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #243 (1998).


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

Ok, these are actually a little funny, at least with the furniture.

3e Giant Dragonfly abilities (from CC): Medium, Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int —, Wis 12, Cha 9, +5 natural
3e Giant Snapping Turtle (from CC): Medium, Str 32, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8, +16 natural
Going to large gives us Str 23, Dex 13, Con 18, +7 natural or Str 16, Dex 8, Con 17, +9 natural.  Split the difference and go with Str 20, Dex 11, Con 18?  The natural armor should be high due to the shell; AC 20 would be +11 natural at these stats.

More quick thoughts:
Hover should be a bonus feat.
Maybe a "critical" vulnerability for damaging the wings.
Anything about the furniture, or just flavor for that?


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> 3e Giant Snapping Turtle (from CC): Medium, Str 32, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8, +16 natural




Strength 32 for a Medium sized turtle? I don't remember them being that nasty!

Only joking, I remember them being pretty big, and going by the size adjustment they were Gargantuan.

Actually that gets me thinking. The illustration for them suggests dragonfly turtles get a lot bigger than 10 feet long. Assuming the chair is sized for a human and not a gnome, I'd guesstimate the Dragonfly Turtle is some 12 feet wide and 18 feet long - easily Huge sized considering turtles are weighty for their length.

So, how about advancing them to Gargantuan?

A Dragon Turtle is a Huge 12HD creature so might prove a handy basis for HD comparison. Their growth stages could go 1-2 HD (Small), 3-5 HD (Medium), 6-11 HD (Large), 12-23 HD (Huge), 24-32 HD (Gargantuan) based on the description.

So the 8 HD adult we're statting up could be about halfway through its Large advancement - say, 6 feet wide, 10 feet long and 2000 pounds.



freyar said:


> Going to large gives us Str 23, Dex 13, Con 18, +7 natural or Str 16, Dex 8, Con 17, +9 natural. Split the difference and go with Str 20, Dex 11, Con 18? The natural armor should be high due to the shell; AC 20 would be +11 natural at these stats.




I also wondered about downsizing a Dragon Turtle to Large, which would give Str 19, Dex 8, Con 17, +14 natural. However I feel Dragon Turtle's are sadly underpowered in 3E (I'd use the SRD stats for a Large Juvenile Dragon Turtle myself, but that's another issue).

So, I'd rather lean towards the higher of those two, i.e.:

*Dragonfly Turtle:* Str 22, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8, +10 natural



freyar said:


> More quick thoughts:
> Hover should be a bonus feat.
> Maybe a "critical" vulnerability for damaging the wings.
> Anything about the furniture, or just flavor for that?




Hover as a bonus feat was the one of first things that occured to me, too.

Rather than a critical vulnerability it reads more like you can make Sunder attacks against the wings with fiery weapons or burn them off with AoE spells. We may want to just drop it, but if we decide to give it this trait I'm thinking something like:*Combustible Wings (Ex):* A dragonfly turtle's four wings are highly flammable. An opponent with a flaming weapon may make Sunder attacks against a wings (AC17). If they do 4 or more points of fire damage in a single hit the wing burns off. A dragonfly turtle which has lost a single wing cannot fly, but can slow its fall to X feet per round and land without taking falling damage. A turtle that has lost two or more wings takes normal falling damage.

A dragonfly turtle that fails a Reflex save against an area of effect fire attack must make an additional Fortitude save at the same DC or suffer damage to its wings. If it took 5 or more fire damage from the attack its wings are damaged but it is able to make an erratic but semi-controlled descent (as if it had lost a single wing), 10 or more damage and it falls like a stone.​As for the furniture, that looks like flavour for an exotic saddle or howdah to me.


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## Cleon (May 8, 2010)

No replies on the Dragonfly Turtle?

I don't fancy keeping the 3d4 bite attack so I think I'd go for a number to either side. I like 2d8 for them, since (a) a Dragon Turtle downsized to Large would have a 3d6 bite and (b) I fancy the Dragon Turtles' juvenile growth stages goes something like this in 3E:

*Hatchling* - Small, 1HD, NA +6, Str 8, 1d4 bite, swim speed 10 ft, no fly speed.
*Juvenile* - Medium ,2 HD, NA +8, Str 10, 1d6 bite, swim speed 10 ft, no fly speed.
*Young* - Medium, 4 HD, NA +8, Str 14, 1d8 bite, gain fly speed, no swim speed.
*Young Adult* - Large, 6 HD, NA +10, Str 18, 2d6 bite.
*Mature Adult* - (as below)

Oh well, here's a first draft of the stats based on the proposals so far:

*Dragonfly Turtle*
Large Magical Beast 
Hit Dice: 8d10+24 (68 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 80 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +10 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+18
Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d8+9) 
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d8+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Combustible wings, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: 11 points
Feats: 3 feats plus Hover (B)
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: *5*?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-11 HD (Large), 12-23 HD (Huge), 24-32 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

A typical dragonfly turtle weighs about 2000 pounds and is 10 feet long with a shell up to 6 feet across.

*Combustible Wings (Ex):* A dragonfly turtle's four wings are  highly flammable. An opponent with a flaming weapon may make Sunder  attacks against a wings (AC17). If they do 4 or more points of fire  damage in a single hit the wing burns off. A dragonfly turtle which has  lost a single wing cannot fly, but can slow its fall to X feet per round  and land without taking falling damage. A turtle that has lost two or  more wings takes normal falling damage.

A dragonfly turtle that fails a Reflex save against an area of effect  fire attack must make an additional Fortitude save at the same DC or  suffer damage to its wings. If it took 5 or more fire damage from the  attack its wings are damaged but it is able to make an erratic but  semi-controlled descent (as if it had lost a single wing), 10 or more  damage and it falls like a stone.


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## Shade (May 10, 2010)

It looks like a good start, and I agree with the ability scores and bite damage.

Probably unsurprisingly, I find the combustible wings a bit fiddly.


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## Shade (May 11, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I think they should have a swim speed (a slow one) as well, since they are turtles, after all.  The young are listed as aquatic, so they aren't landbound tortoises.


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## Cleon (May 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I think they should have a swim speed (a slow one) as well, since they are turtles, after all.  The young are listed as aquatic, so they aren't landbound tortoises.




Funny you should say that, in my original draft I gave them a 20 ft. swim speed but then noticed the "at which point they stop swimming (their wings don’t function well when  wet)" so took it out.

Maybe give them a swim speed with a special quality that they must wait for their wings to dry before they can fly?

Does that mean they can't fly when its raining?

So what feats do you fancy for them.

Flyby Attack would appear a good fit.

Wingover? I suspect they should be at least as agile in the air as a Hippogriff.

Not sure what to do for the third feat.


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## Shade (May 12, 2010)

Swim 20 ft. and flavor text about the "can't fly while wet" work for me.

Turtle feats:
Snapping Turtle (Stormwrack):  Improved Natural Armor (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
Warturtle (Dragon 343): Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
Archelon: Great Fortitude, Toughness (x4)

Giant Dragonfly has Flyby Attack as a bonus feat.

So, Flyby Attack sounds good.  Wingover probably works, too.  I think I favor Endurance as the third feat.


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## Cleon (May 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> Swim 20 ft. and flavor text about the "can't fly while wet" work for me.
> 
> Turtle feats:
> Snapping Turtle (Stormwrack):  Improved Natural Armor (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
> ...




I was musing about Weapon Focus (bite) but Endurance suits me just as well.

Turtles are great survivors, and dragonflies have high stamina, so putting them together to give Dragonfly Turtles Endurance makes sense to me.


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## Shade (May 13, 2010)

Updated.

Put all ranks in Spot like the snapping turtle in Stormwrack?

CR 4?  Although they can fly and have 2 more HD, they are far less deadly than the CR 4 warturtle.  The combustible, water-vulnerable wings impose quite a penalty on their greatest strength.


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## Cleon (May 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Put all ranks in Spot like the snapping turtle in Stormwrack?




I was thinking the same thing, though based on dragonflies having good eyesight.



Shade said:


> CR 4?  Although they can fly and have 2 more HD, they are far less deadly than the CR 4 warturtle.  The combustible, water-vulnerable wings impose quite a penalty on their greatest strength.




Saying they're CR 4 'cause they're they are far less deadly than the CR 4  warturtle is a bit confusing, especially as the current update has a "5?" in the Challenge Rating.

EDIT: Sorry, I just realized it was me who put the "CR: 5?" in the rough draft not Shade. I was helping confuse myself! :ENDEDIT

I was thinking the dragonfly turtle is roughly equal to a Griffon, so  was going to suggest Challenge Rating 4.

Anyhow, I've been thinking we should formalize their wings water vulnerability in case the PCs try to get them wet. Here's what I've come up with:*Water-Sensitive Wings (Ex):* Exposure to water softens a dragonfly turtle's wings, meaning the turtle can not fly in rain or if its wings are soaked by swimming. If a dragonfly turtle is struck by a water-based effect, such as a _create water_ spell or a Water Elemental's drench attack, it must make a Fortitude save (DC15 or the DC of the spell or special attack) or be forced to land as if it had lost a wing (see Combustible Wings, above). A dragonfly turtle with wet wings can dry them out by "buzzing" them for at least a minute (up to 1d6+6 for water-logged wings or if the air is very humid). It needs to spend a move action to "buzz" its wings for a round.​That's the cut down version. My original draft was a lot more complicated.


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## freyar (May 16, 2010)

That combined with the combustion just feels awfully complicated.  How about this?

Vulnerable Wings (Ex): A dragonfly turtle's wings are highly flammable.  Any time a dragonfly turtle takes fire damage, it must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 plus the fire damage taken) or lose wings (one wing per X points of damage).  A dragonfly turtle which has lost a single wing cannot fly, but can land without taking falling damage as per feather fall. A dragonfly turtle that has lost two or more wings takes normal falling damage.

Additionally, a dragonfly turtle cannot fly with wet wings.  If a dragonfly turtle is struck by a water based attack or effect while flying, it must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equal to that of the attack or effect, DC 15 if not otherwise specified) or be forced to land as if it had lost one wing.  Drying wings takes at least one minute but possibly longer depending on the circumstances.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> That combined with the combustion just feels awfully complicated.  How about this?
> 
> Vulnerable Wings (Ex): A dragonfly turtle's wings are highly flammable.  Any time a dragonfly turtle takes fire damage, it must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 plus the fire damage taken) or lose wings (one wing per X points of damage).  A dragonfly turtle which has lost a single wing cannot fly, but can land without taking falling damage as per feather fall. A dragonfly turtle that has lost two or more wings takes normal falling damage.
> 
> Additionally, a dragonfly turtle cannot fly with wet wings.  If a dragonfly turtle is struck by a water based attack or effect while flying, it must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equal to that of the attack or effect, DC 15 if not otherwise specified) or be forced to land as if it had lost one wing.  Drying wings takes at least one minute but possibly longer depending on the circumstances.




I don't mind combining the two and simplifying them a bit.

I'd like to keep the sunder approach for flaming weapons though, and I think the "Drying wings" sentence could do with a bit of rephrasing.

How about:

* Vulnerable Wings (Ex):* A dragonfly turtle's wings are highly flammable. They can be damaged by area-of-effect fire attacks, or by an opponent with a flaming weapon making Sunder attacks against the AC17 wings (sunder damage to a wing does not harm the turtle). The dragonfly turtle must succeed on a  Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 plus the fire damage taken) or lose wings  (one wing per 4 points of damage).  A dragonfly turtle which has lost a  single wing cannot fly, but can land without taking falling damage as  per the _feather fall_ spell. A dragonfly turtle that has lost two or more wings  takes normal falling damage.

Additionally, dragonfly turtles cannot fly with wet wings.  If a  dragonfly turtle is struck by a water based attack or effect while  flying, it must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equal to that of the  attack or effect, DC 15 if not otherwise specified) or be forced to land  as if it had lost one wing. A dragonfly turtle can dry wet wings by buzzing them for at least one minute, or longer depending on the circumstances.


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## freyar (May 16, 2010)

That's ok, but I wonder why you'd bother with a sunder attempt and risk an AoO (possibly from the rider, too) if you can just hit the thing?


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Drop the "sunder with flaming weapons" bit, and I'm happy.  It's too niche fro my tastes.  Keep that for the "Cleon Special" version.  

In fact, I'd rather drop the wing vulnerability altogether, since dragonflies and other flying insects have no such vulnerability.  But since they lack any other interesting abilities, I'll begrudgingly go along for the ride.  

Updated.

Shall we work on a Training section?


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> That's ok, but I wonder why you'd bother with a sunder attempt and risk an AoO (possibly from the rider, too) if you can just hit the thing?




Having it apply to regular non-Sunder fiery weapon attacks just makes it too easy to bring them down.

I'm sure there are going to be circumstances when you want to take a dragonfly turtle out of the air and only have a torch or _flaming_ weapon, but are prepared to risk an AoO. 

They're a lot easier to deal with on the ground - no diving attacks and it's easy to play "keep away" and kill them from a distance.

Besides, a flask of alchemical fire is a cheap and easy way to bring them down.

I'd rather keep the Sunder.

We could add that the wing-burning also occurs on a critical with a fiery weapons.

e.g.:

* Vulnerable Wings (Ex):* A dragonfly turtle's wings are  highly flammable. They can be damaged by area-of-effect fire attacks, or  by a critical hit or Sunder attack from a flaming weapon (The wings have AC17 against Sunder attacks, and sunder damage to a wing does not harm the turtle). The  dragonfly turtle must succeed on a  Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 plus  the fire damage taken) or lose wings  (one wing per 4 points of fire damage).   A dragonfly turtle which has lost a  single wing cannot fly, but can  land without taking falling damage as  per the _feather fall_  spell. A dragonfly turtle that has lost two or more wings  takes normal  falling damage.

Additionally, dragonfly turtles cannot fly with wet wings.  If a   dragonfly turtle is struck by a water based attack or effect while   flying, it must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equal to that of the   attack or effect, DC 15 if not otherwise specified) or be forced to land   as if it had lost one wing. A dragonfly turtle can dry wet wings by  buzzing them for at least one minute, or longer depending on the  circumstances.


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Drop the "sunder with flaming weapons" bit, and I'm happy.  It's too niche fro my tastes.  Keep that for the "Cleon Special" version.




Dang it, my genius has been outvoted again. 

Looks like you hop-scotched over my last post. I'm OK with the plain boring version not including Sunder but I prefer "Vulnerable Wings" to "Fragile Wings", since water doesn't make them frangible, it just impairs their aerial performance.



Shade said:


> Shall we work on a Training section?




Might as well. I'm thinking we should use a Hippogriff as a foundation, since it isn't an intelligence flying steed like a Griffin or Pegasus.

I'd set the gp value to equal a Griffin, since we've given the turtle the same CR.

We can add a mention of the supergluing chests and chairs to its back. I dropped mention of _sovereign glue_ since that would add 2,400gp to the cost of the saddle.

So, that would make it something like:

*Training A Dragonfly Turtle*
A dragonfly turtle requires training before it can bear a rider in combat.

Training a dragonfly turtle requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding a dragonfly turtle requires an exotic saddle A dragonfly turtle can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.

A dragonfly turtle's saddle usually takes the form of a throne-like chair glued to the back of the turtle's shell. Some dragonfly turtles also have chests or lockers glued to their shell for storing their master's possessions.

Dragonfly turtle eggs are worth 3,500 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 7,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,500 gp to rear or train a dragonfly turtle.
*
Carrying Capacity*
A light load for a dragonfly turtle is up to 519 pounds; a medium load, 520-1,038 pounds; and a heavy load, 1,039-1,560 pounds.


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Looks good.  Updated.

Anything left?


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Updated.
> 
> Anything left?




Well you haven't statted up every stage in their life-cycle with explanatory notes yet.

Something like this...

*Dragonfly Turtle Growth Stages*
Dragonfly turtles lay their eggs in water. Hatchlings are born with internal gills like a dragonfly nymph. When the young grow to about 6 feet in length (which usually takes about 4 years) they crawl onto land and metamorphose, exchanging their gills for lungs and shedding the outermost layers of their shell to reveal their first wings. They can fly as soon as they pump out and dry their wings – the whole metamorphosis usually takes 2-3 hours. It takes another 4 years for them to grow to adult size.

Dragonfly turtles live about 20 years. They grow throughout their lives and can reach Gargantuan size. Dragonfly turtles moult every few months, replacing their wings with each moult.

*Skills:* The aquatic stages of a dragonfly turtle have green and brown camouflage patterns which give them a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks if they are amongst mud or waterweed. They can also use their Strength or Dexterity bonus on Swim checks, whichever is better.

*Hatchling **Dragonfly Turtle* (Small Magical Beast (Aquatic), *Hit Dice:* 1d10+1 (6 hp); *Init:* +3; *Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 20 ft.; *AC:* 20 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 17; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/-4; *Attack/Full Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d4-1); *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* —; *Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +0; *Abilities:* Str 8, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8; *Skills:* Hide +7* (+15 in ponds), Spot +4, Swim +11; *Feats:* Endurance, Weapon Finesse (B); *Advancement:* 2 HD (Small); 3-5 HD (Medium); 6-11 HD (Large), 12-23 HD (Huge), 24-32 HD (Gargantuan); *CR:* 1/2)

Hatchling dragonfly turtles are some 2-4 feet long, with shells up to 2 feet across, and weigh 10 to 75 pounds.

*Aquatic Juvenile **Dragonfly Turtle* (Medium Magical Beast (Aquatic), *Hit Dice:* 3d10+6 (22 hp); *Init:* +2; *Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 20 ft.; *AC:* 20 (+2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 18; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+3; *Attack/Full Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d6); *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* —; *Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1; *Abilities:* Str 10, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8; *Skills:* Hide +2* (+10 in ponds), Spot +6, Swim +10; *Feats:* Endurance, Swimby Attack, Weapon Finesse (B); *Advancement:* 4-5 HD (Medium); 6-11 HD (Large), 12-23 HD (Huge), 24-32 HD (Gargantuan); *CR:* 1)

These aquatic juvenile dragonfly turtles (or nymphs) are usually 4-6 feet long, with shells up to 3 feet across, and weigh 75 to 250 pounds.

*Winged Juvenile **Dragonfly Turtle* (Medium Magical Beast, *Hit Dice:* 4d10+8 (30 hp); *Init:* +2; *Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 80 ft. (average), swim 20 ft.; *AC:* 20 (+2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 18; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +4/+6; *Attack/Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d8+3); *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* —; *Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, vulnerable wings; *Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +1; *Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8; *Skills:* Spot +7, Swim +10; *Feats:* Endurance, Flyby Attack, Hover (B); *Advancement:* 5 HD (Medium); 6-11 HD (Large), 12-23 HD (Huge), 24-32 HD (Gargantuan); *CR:* 2)

Juvenile winged dragonfly turtles are sometimes called hums by common folk, after the distinctive sound of their wings, although scholars call them subimagos, since they are a winged yet sexually immature stage. They are typically 6-8 feet long, with shells up to 4 feet across, and weigh 250 to 600 pounds. Small sized characters can ride a subimago dragonfly turtle, so they are sometimes trained as flying mounts.

*Young Adult **Dragonfly Turtle* (Large Magical Beast, *Hit Dice:* 6d10+18 (51 hp); *Init:* +1; *Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 80 ft. (average), swim 20 ft.; *AC:* 20 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +10 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 19; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+14; *Attack/Full Attack:* Bite +9 melee (2d6+6); *Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* —; *Special Qualities:* Combustible wings, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, water-sensitive wings; *Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +2; *Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8; *Skills:* Spot +9, Swim +12; *Feats:* Endurance, Flyby Attack, Hover (B), Wingover; *Advancement:* 7-11 HD (Large), 12-23 HD (Huge), 24-32 HD (Gargantuan); *CR:* 3)

A young adult dragonfly turtle is typically 8 feet long with a shell up to 5 feet across, weighing around 1,100 pounds. This is the size they normally begin training to take a rider, since they are strong enough to fly with a Medium-sized creature.

*Adult **Dragonfly Turtle* (Large Magical Beast, *Hit Dice:* 8d10+24 (68 hp); *Init:* +1; *Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 80 ft. (average), swim 20 ft.; *AC:* 20 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +10 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 19; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +8/+18; *Attack/Full Attack:* Bite +12 melee (2d8+9); *Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* —; *Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, vulnerable wings; *Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +2; *Abilities:* Str 22, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8; *Skills:* Spot +11, Swim +14; *Feats:* Endurance, Flyby Attack, Hover (B), Wingover; *Advancement:* 9-11 HD (Large), 12-23 HD (Huge), 24-32 HD (Gargantuan); *CR:* 4)

A typical dragonfly turtle – 10 feet long with a shell up to 6 feet across, weighing around 2,000 pounds.

*Huge **Dragonfly Turtle* (Huge Magical Beast, *Hit Dice:* 12d10+72 (138 hp); *Init:* +0; *Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 80 ft. (average), swim 20 ft.; *AC:* 21 (-2 size, +0 Dex, +13 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 21; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+30; *Attack/Full Attack:* Bite +20 melee (3d8+15); *Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.; *Special Attacks:* —; *Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, vulnerable wings; *Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +4; *Abilities:* Str 30, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8; *Skills:* Spot +15, Swim +18; *Feats:* Endurance, Flyby Attack, Hover (B), Improved Flyby Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Wingover; *Advancement:* 13-23 HD (Huge), 24-32 HD (Gargantuan); *CR:* 7)

A Huge dragonfly turtle is typically 20 feet long with a shell up to 12 feet across, and weighs around 16,000 pounds.

*Gargantuan **Dragonfly Turtle* (Gargantuan Magical Beast, *Hit Dice:* 24d10+192 (324 hp); *Init:* +0; *Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 80 ft. (average), swim 20 ft.; *AC:* 23 (-4 size, +0 Dex, +17 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 23; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +24/+51; *Attack/Full Attack:* Bite +35 melee (4d8+22/19-20); *Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft.; *Special Attacks:* —; *Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., damage reduction 3/–, low-light vision, scent, vulnerable wings; *Saves:* Fort +22, Ref +20, Will +8; *Abilities:* Str 40, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8; *Skills:* Spot +27, Swim +22; *Feats:* Damage Reduction, Endurance, Epic Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Hover (B), Improved Critical (bite), Improved Flyby Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Snatch, Wingover; *Advancement:* 25-32 HD (Gargantuan); *CR:* 12)

A Gargantuan dragonfly turtle is typically 40 feet long with a shell up to 24 feet across, and weighs around 60 to 70 tons.

*Ancient **Dragonfly Turtle* (Gargantuan Magical Beast, *Hit Dice:* 32d10+256 (432 hp); *Init:* +0; *Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 80 ft. (average), swim 20 ft.; *AC:* 23 (-4 size, +0 Dex, +17 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 23; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +32/+60; *Attack/Full Attack:* Bite +44 melee (6d8+24/19-20); *Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft.; *Special Attacks:* —; *Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., damage reduction 3/–, low-light vision, scent, vulnerable wings; *Saves:* Fort +26, Ref +24, Will +14; *Abilities:* Str 42, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8; *Skills:* Spot +35, Swim +22; *Feats:* Damage Reduction, Endurance, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Flyby Attack, Hover (B), Improved Critical (bite), Improved Flyby Attack, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Lightning Reflexes, Snatch, Wingover; *Advancement:* —; *CR:* 14)

Ancient dragonfly turtles have advanced to their maximum hit dice. They are somewhat larger than regular Gargantuan dragonfly turtles – typically 50 feet long with a shell up to 30 feet across, and weighs around 125 tons.

Note the advanced dragonfly turtles include ability score advancements for their extra HD. The Huge dragonfly turtle has +1 Constitution, the Gargantuan turtle +2 Strength and +2 Constitution, and the ancient turtle +4 Strength and +2 Constitution.


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

CLEON SPECIAL...CLEON SPECIAL...CLEON SPECIAL...

<head explodes>


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## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> CLEON SPECIAL...CLEON SPECIAL...CLEON SPECIAL...
> 
> <head explodes>




Slowly my plan is approaching fruition.

Bwah hah hah!!


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## freyar (May 19, 2010)

Never fear, I picked up a scroll of resurrection on my business trip!  Now I just need to boost my Wis enough to cast it...


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

This one's not real silly, either, but since this thread has temporarily become a "converting the hybrids" thread, we might as well continue...

*Owlbear, Arctic*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any arctic 
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
ORGANIZATION: Pack 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Dav 
DIET: Carnivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7) 
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 1 (2-8) 
ARMOR CLASS: 5 
MOVEMENT: 12 Sw 9 
HIT DICE: 8+2 
THACO: 13 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: ld10/ld10/2d6 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hug, surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to cold
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (12' tall)
MORALE: Steadv (11-12)
XP VALUE: 2,000 

Arctic owlbears are the polar cousins of the normal owlbear. They resemble a cross between a snowy owl and a polar bear. Both their fur and their feathers are a snowy white, while the claws and beak are both black. Yellow, glowing eyes look forward from a rounded head. Like other owlbears, arctic owlbears communicate with hoots and loud screeches.

Combat: Due to its ability to blend into the arctic environment, an arctic owlbear is 75% likely to surprise its prey when hunting. Arctic owlbears are as foul-tempered as their forest cousins, immediately attacking prey with their front claws and wicked beaks.

Upon scoring a claw hit on a roll of 18 or better, the owlbear immediately hugs for 2d8 points of damage, which it maintains as long as it wishes, inflicting damage each round. Once engaged in a hugging attack, the owlbear cannot slash with its claws, but can use its beak normally A single attempt to break the hug is allowed, using the bend bars/lift gates roll for success (monsters without strength ratings use a saving throw vs. paralysis if larger than man-size, at -2 if man-sized or smaller).

The multi-layered fur and feathers of the arctic owlbear give it immunity to cold-based attacks. 

Habitat/Society: Arctic owlbears live in the coldest areas of the arctic, often making their lairs in pre-existing caves or carving dens in hanks of snow. However, they tend to he wanderers and do not settle in any one place for long. If encountered in their lair, a mated pair of owlbears is 25% likely to have either ld6 eggs (20% chance) or the same number of young (80% chance). Young will be from 40% to 70% grown, fighting as creatures with 5 or 6 Hit Dice. Damage inflicted by these younger owl bears is ld6/ld6/2d4. The hug inflicts 2d6 points of damage per round and the chance of escaping the hug is increased by 20%.

Ecology: Arctic owlbears live for ahout 20 years. They will prey on anything, but prefer meat above all else. Unlike normal owlbears, the arctic variety hunt primarily by day and, being good swimmers, will aggressively pursue the prey into frigid waters without hesitation. They are well adapted for their environment-rough, leathery pads on the bottom of their paws help them maintain stability on icy surfaces.  Natives of these lands claim nothing worse than having an arctic owlbear on your trail, because of their stubborn determination, nasty disposition, and constant hunger.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three (1996).


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Note that these are quite a bit tougher than a standard 2e owlbear.

*Owlbear*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate forest 
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Pack 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Late afternoon/early evening 
DIET: Carnivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7) 
TREASURE: (C) 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 1 (2-8) 
ARMOR CLASS: 5 
MOVEMENT: 12 
HIT DICE: 5+2 
THAC0: 15 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/2-12 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hug 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: L (8' tall) 
MORALE: Steady (11-12) +Special 
XP VALUE: 420


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> This one's not real silly, either, but since this thread has temporarily become a "converting the hybrids" thread, we might as well continue...




You've forgotten the Duckbunny! They are far sillier than a slightly improved owlbear.

Admittedly it's not a threat, but that's the point of Duckbunnies.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

I've forgotten nothing.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Anyhow, we might as well do the arctic owlbear while preparing ourselves to confront the horror that is the duckbunny.

I actually did a homebrewed conversion of the Arctic Owlbear last year, based on the info in the Dragon magazine Ecology of the Owlbear article. It'd be interesting to see how the enworld/MCA3 take differs from what I came up with.

The writeup is practically identical:

From "The Ecology of the Owlbear" by Johnathan M Richard in Dragon Magazine #214 (February 1995)

* Arctic Owlbear*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any arctic
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 (2-8)
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12, SW 9
HIT DICE: 8+2
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: l-10/1-10/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hug, surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immunity to cold-based attacks
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (12’ tall)
MORALE: Steady (11-12) + Special
XP VALUE: 2,000

Arctic owlbears are the polar cousins of the normal owlbear; they resemble a cross between a snowy owl and a polar bear. Both fur and feathers are a snowy white, while the claws and beak are both black. Yellow, glowing eyes look forward from a rounded head. Arctic owlbears speak the owlbear language, made up of loud screeches.

*Combat:* Arctic owlbears are as foul-tempered as their forest-dwelling cousins, immediately attacking prey with their front claws and wicked beak. They hug for 2-16 points of damage per round after scoring a claw hit with a roll of 18 or better. Once engaged in a hugging attack, the arctic owlbear cannot use its claws, but uses its beak to full advantage. A single attempt to break free from a hug is allowed; use the chance to bend bars/lift gates to determine success.

The arctic owlbear’s fur and feathers are all multi-layered, protecting it from the coldest temperatures, even when wet. For this reason, the beasts are immune to all cold-based attacks. Additionally, due to their ability to blend into the arctic environment, they are 75% likely to surprise their prey.

*Habitat/Society:* Arctic owlbears live in the coldest areas of the arctic, often making their lairs in pre-existing caves or carving their own dens in banks of snow. However, they tend to be wanderers, constantly on the move in search of prey, and so do not settle in one place for very long. If encountered in their lair, a mated pair of arctic owlbears may have 1-6 eggs (20%) or young (80%) with them; there is only a 25% chance of one or the other. The young will be from 40% to 70% grown, fighting as creatures with 5 or 6 Hit Dice. Damage from an immature arctic owlbear is l-6/1-6/2-8, and characters get a bonus of +20% to their bend bars/lift gates roll when trying to escape from a hug.

*Ecology:* Arctic owlbears live for about 20 years. They will prey on anything, but prefer seal meat above all else. Unlike normal owlbears, the arctic variety hunt primarily in the day, and, being good swimmers, will pursue their prey into the frigid waters without hesitation. They are well-equipped for their environment — rough, leathery pads on the bottom of their paws help them maintain stability over icy surfaces. The local inhabitants of arctic regions say that there’s nothing worse than having an arctic owlbear on your trail, because of their stubborn determination, nasty disposition, and constant hunger.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> I've forgotten nothing.




Spoilsport.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Shall we apply the "halfway to Huge" ability modifiers (+4 Str, -1 Dex, +2 Con)?

I could see leaving Dex unchanged.

It picks up a swim speed and immunity to cold.



> Due to its ability to blend into the arctic environment, an arctic owlbear is 75% likely to surprise its prey when hunting.




Racial bonus on Hide checks in arctic environs?



> They are well adapted for their environment-rough, leathery pads on the bottom of their paws help them maintain stability on icy surfaces.




Borrow this?

Icewalking (Ex): This ability works like the spider climb spell, but the surfaces the dragon climbs must be icy. It is always in effect. 

Or this?

Surefooted (Ex): Brantas ignore all movement penalties associated with snow on the ground. They also receive a +4 racial bonus on Balance checks when walking on ice or snow.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Shall we apply the "halfway to Huge" ability modifiers (+4 Str, -1 Dex, +2 Con)?
> 
> I could see leaving Dex unchanged.
> 
> It picks up a swim speed and immunity to cold.




Polar bears have swim 30 ft.



Shade said:


> Racial bonus on Hide checks in arctic environs?




Definitely. I'd prefer +12 like a Lion since 75% surprise is pretty stealthy.



Shade said:


> Borrow this?
> 
> Icewalking (Ex): This ability works like the spider climb spell, but the surfaces the dragon climbs must be icy. It is always in effect.
> 
> ...




I think the second of those options is preferable. I don't see any mention of them being able to walk upside-down across icy ceilings.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I increased the claw damage to match that of a polar bear.  I left bite unchanged, since the original arctic owlbear was same as owlbear (original recipe).


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## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I increased the claw damage to match that of a polar bear.  I left bite unchanged, since the original arctic owlbear was same as owlbear (original recipe).




OK, so skills and feats next I guess.

Here are some skill rank comparisons:

*Owlbear:* Listen 4, Spot 4
*Brown Bear:* Listen 3, Spot 6, Swim 0
*Polar Bear:* Hide 1, Listen 4, Spot 6, Swim 0

So, I would put give the Arctic Owlbear the same Listen and Spot ranks as a regular owlbear and put the extra 2 points in Hide and/or Move Silently. They are supposed to be stealthy.

As for feats:

*Owlbear:* Alertness, Track
*Brown and Polar Bear:* Endurance, Run, Track

I'm fine with keeping the Alertness and Track, so if we pick one of the Bear's other feats we have a choice between Endurance or Run.


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Agreed to all that, and I think I'd prefer Endurance to Run.


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## freyar (May 20, 2010)

Ok, I know the 2e owlbear had hug too but no constrict in 3e, but I fancy giving the arctic ones constrict, since they're considerably tougher.  What do you think?


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Probably not.  Even the mighty dire polar bears still have only the "hug".


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## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Probably not.  Even the mighty dire polar bears still have only the "hug".




I'll leave that up to you.


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## Shade (May 21, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 5?

Advancement: 9–15 HD (Huge)?

A full-grown male can stand as tall as 12 feet and weigh up to x pounds. Arctic owlbears live for ahout 20 years.


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## freyar (May 21, 2010)

Well, those numbers seem fair enough.  Cleon will be along with a good weight soon, I figure.


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## Cleon (May 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, those numbers seem fair enough.  Cleon will be along with a good weight soon, I figure.




I'm thinking that "12 feet tall" is when they're rearing on their hind legs.

A large polar bear is about 10 feet long and 1500 pounds, and might be something like 7-8 feet tall standing on its hind paws.

Personally, I'd just make an owlbear the same size & weight as a polar bear, since they're both Large and have 8HD.

Failing that, upsizing that polar bear by 50% we get a beast 15 feet long and 5000 pounds, rearing to 12 feet tall on its hind paws. I'd cut the weight down to 4000 pounds (or 1200 pounds for the smaller version), based on the lightness of the avian half of its ancestry.

So:

A typical arctic owlbear is about 10 feet long and weighs 1200 pounds, when rearing on its hind paws it can stand up to 8 feet tall.

A huge arctic owlbear is about 15 feet long and weighs 4000 pounds,  when rearing on its hind paws it can stand up to 12 feet tall.


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## Shade (May 25, 2010)

Thanks for doing the math.  

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (May 25, 2010)

Looks good to me!


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## Cleon (May 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Thanks for doing the math.
> 
> Updated.  Finished?




"Arctic owlbears live for *ahout* 20 years."?


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

That was uh...intentional.  Get it..."a hoot"..._owl_bear...


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## Cleon (May 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> That was uh...intentional.  Get it..."a hoot"..._owl_bear...




Don't think you can fool me with that excuse, everyone knows owlbears don't a-hoot, they growl-hoot.

Just for comparison, here's a conversion I did some time ago. (You may notice it lists Sylvan as a language, that's because my homebrew "Owlbear" can speak like the AD&D original did)

They're pretty close, which I guess isn't surprising.

*Owlbear, Arctic*
Large Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 8d10+40 (84 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), Swim 20 ft.
*Armour Class:* 15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +8/+20
*Attack:* Claw +15 melee (1d8+8)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +15 melee (1d8+8) and bite +13 melee (2d6+4)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, rend & bite 2d8+12
*Special Qualities:* Immunity to cold, scent, superior low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 26, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills:* Hide +1 (+13 against snow), Listen +12, Move Silently +10, Spot +8, Survival +3, Swim +16
*Feats:* Multiattack, Run, Track
*Environment:* Cold plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–8)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* Goods (see below)
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 9–12 HD (Large); 13–16 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_Resembling a cross between a snowy owl and a polar bear, the huge quadruped has a bear-like body coated in pure white feathers and fur, ivory coloured claws and beak and great yellow eyes set in a rounded head._

Arctic owlbears are significantly larger and stronger than regular owlbears. A large male arctic owlbear can stretch 12 feet long and weigh over 2,500 pounds.

These rare monsters are often hunted for their fur and feathers, which provide the beast with their unnatural immunity to cold. Although its coat loses most of its insulation upon the arctic owlbear's death, a pelt in good condition is still worth half the standard treasure value of its Challenge Rating – 600 gp for an average Challenge Rating 4 specimen.

Arctic owlbears speak the same dialect of Sylvan as regular owlbears, which is nothing more than bestial screeches to the untutored ear. They never willingly talk to humanoids.

*Combat*
Arctic owlbears are horribly stealthy, their huge padded feet and snow-white forms mean they can move through the arctic wastes like ghosts, allowing them to often surprise their victims. Arctic owlbears attack prey—any creature bigger than a mouse—on sight, always fighting to the death. They slash with claws and beak, trying to grab their prey and rip it apart.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, an arctic owlbear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity and can proceed to Rend & Bite its opponent.

*Rend & Bite (Ex):* An arctic owlbear that is grappling a foe can use a full attack action to automatically claw its opponent for 2d8+12 points of damage and make a bite attack as a primary attack (at its full +15 attack bonus).

*Superior Low-Light Vision (Ex):* An arctic owlbear can see five times as far as a human can in dim light.

*Skills:* Arctic owlbears have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Move Silently checks, and a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks. An arctic owlbear has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*An arctic owlbear's white coat bestows a +12 racial bonus on Hide checks in snowy areas.


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## Shade (May 27, 2010)

Is this one worthy of conversion?

*Owlbear, Winged*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any nonarctic
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
ORGANIZATION: Family
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Dusk 
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7) 
TREASURE: Incidentai 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING:1 (2-5)
ARMOR CLASS: 5 
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 18 (E)
HIT DICE: 5+2
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: ldlO/ld10/2d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hug, surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: NiI
MAGIC RESISTANCE: NiI
SIZE: L (8’ tall)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE:  975

The winged owlbear is a true synthesis of owl and bear; unlike other species of owlbears, this one has a large pair of feathered wings growing from its shoulders. However, the winged owlbear is just as nasty-tempered as its ground-dwelling cousin and communicates with the same screeching tones.

Combat: The flight of the winged owlbear is nearly silent due to the construction of its feathers-any prey has a penalty to its surprise roll of at least -2; in poor lighting, this might be high as -6. A winged owlbear fights as do other owlbears, using its front claws and sharp beak. A claw hit on a roll of 18 or better establishes a hug, which allows one chance to escape using the bend har/lift gate chances and otherwise allows the creature to inflict 2d8 points of damage per round. 

Habitat/Society: The winged owlbear can be found in almost any non-arctic environment (though they art very scarce), but seems to prefer wooded forests or mountainous terrain. Their flying capabilities allow them to claim large areas as their territory-usually ten to twenty square miles. 

Winged owlbears live as mated pairs. If encountered in their lairs, there is a 25% chance that ld3 eggs (20% chance) or the same number of young (80% chance) will be present with th adults. The young are the same as normal owlbear young, as their wings will not supprt them until they reach full size.

Ecology: A winged owlbear tends to live slightly longer than other varieties, an age of 25 years or so is common. These creatures are sought by wizards for various reasons, though there is no record of any one being successfully domesticated.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three (1996).


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## freyar (May 28, 2010)

Well, it's smarter than a 3e owlbear, and the damage values are better.  Sure, it'll be quick.


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## Cleon (May 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, it's smarter than a 3e owlbear, and the damage values are better.  Sure, it'll be quick.




The AD&D owlbear has Low intelligence too, for what it's worth.

The original Dragon #214 version of this monster had 1d6 damage claws like a regular owlbear, but I like the more deadly claws.

It's also got a hefty surprise bonus which is worth including.


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## Cleon (May 28, 2010)

Here's the original Dragon #214 version from Johnathan M. Richards "The Ecology of the Owlbear. The greater claw damage is the only real mechanical difference. Note there's a price listed for their young and eggs.

*Winged Owlbear
*CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any nonarctic
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Family
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Late afternoon/early evening
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 (2-5)
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 18 (E)
HIT DICE: 5 + 2
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hug, surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (8’ tall, 20’ wingspan)
MORALE: Steady (11-12) + Special
XP VALUE: 975

The winged owlbear is the ultimate synthesis of owl and bear. It looks like a standard owlbear, but in addition it has a pair of large wings growing from its shoulders. They are just as nasty-tempered as their ground-dwelling cousins, and speak the same language of screeches.

*Combat:* Winged owlbears fight as the wingless variety, utilizing their front claws, sharp beaks, and mighty hug. In addition, they are almost totally silent in flight due to the construction of their wing feathers, and this imposes a -6 penalty on opponents’ surprise rolls.

*Habitat/Society:* Winged owlbears can be found in almost any nonarctic environment (when they can be found at all—they are very scarce), but seem to prefer wooded forests and mountainous terrains. Due to their flight capabilities, winged owlbears tend to claim larger territories as “theirs”—usually ten to twenty square miles.

Winged owlbears live in mated pairs. If encountered in their lairs, there is a 25% chance there will be 1-3 eggs (20%) or young (80%) in addition to the adults. The young are identical to normal owlbear young, as their wings will not support them in flight until they are at full size.

*Ecology:* Winged owlbears tend to live slightly longer than the normal variety, often reaching 25 years or so. They are sought after by wizards, even though to date no one has managed to domesticate one; nonetheless, eggs can go as high as 4,000 silver pieces, while the price for live young can reach 10,000 silver pieces.


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## freyar (May 31, 2010)

I guess we shouldn't increase the Int, then, but there seems to be some support for improved damage.  I like the idea of a training section with a ridiculously high DC.  Or perhaps a "berserk" SQ along the lines of a golem.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> I guess we shouldn't increase the Int, then, but there seems to be some support for improved damage.  I like the idea of a training section with a ridiculously high DC.  Or perhaps a "berserk" SQ along the lines of a golem.




What would you like to increase the damage to then?

I'd leave the training section out, since regular owlbears don't have it.

If we start giving the Berserk SQ to owlbears they should all have it, going by their descriptions the regular and arctic varieties are just as insanely violent as the winged ones.


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## freyar (May 31, 2010)

Well, we could bump the damage up one die, but I think I just misunderstood your previous post.  So maybe there's less to go with.  Grrrmph.

Berserk was only for trained owlbears, if we go that route.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

We could make them more like giant owls, noting in the flavor text that they were fused with these magical beasts rather than standard owls.   That could explain slightly higher Int, and we could give them some of the following...

Superior Low-Light Vision (Ex): A giant owl can see five times as far as a human can in dim light.

Skills: Giant owls have a +8 racial bonus on Listen checks and a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks.

*When in flight, giant owls gain a +8 bonus on Move Silently checks.

Owlbears already deal less claw damage than a similarly-sized (brown) bear, so we could boost the damage up to 1d8 safely.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

Ahh, I like the giant owl angle.  Ok, we can make that work.  And for distinguishing these, I think 1d8 is a nice compromise between 3e owlbear (1d6) and the original 1d10 winged owlbear.


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> We could make them more like giant owls, noting in the flavor text that they were fused with these magical beasts rather than standard owls.   That could explain slightly higher Int, and we could give them some of the following...
> 
> Superior Low-Light Vision (Ex): A giant owl can see five times as far as a human can in dim light.
> 
> ...




That seems exceedingly well thought out.

...of course it's what I did in my own homebrew conversion of the Owlbears, so I would say that.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

Great minds... 

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: 8
Owlbear has Listen, Spot
Giant owl has Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot 

Feats: 2
Owlbear has Alertness, Track
Giant owl has Alertness, Wingover


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

Drop Know (nature)  and go with Listen 3, Move Silently 2, Spot 3.  Alertness and Wingover seem good feats.  Or maybe change Alertness for FlyBy Attack.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

Skills sound good.  I can go either way on Alertness vs. Flyby Attack.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Skills sound good.  I can go either way on Alertness vs. Flyby Attack.




The original's "Winged owlbears fight as the wingless variety, utilizing their front claws, sharp beaks, and mighty hug" rather suggests they don't fight from the air, which is hardly surprising considering they're very clumsy fliers (Type E).

That said, feel free to give it Flyby Attack if you fancy it.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

Let's do it, just to differentiate them further.

Updated.

CR 5?  The flight, combined with superior senses and stealth seems to support a slightly higher CR than a typical owlbear.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's do it, just to differentiate them further.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> CR 5?  The flight, combined with superior senses and stealth seems to support a slightly higher CR than a typical owlbear.




Yup, that was my thinking too.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Then I guess it's done.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

I guess it's done then.

Here's my own homebrew of them, for the sake of comparison:

*Owlbear, Winged*
Large Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 5d10+20 (47 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 60 ft. (clumsy)
*Armour Class:* 15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+15
*Attack:* Claw +10 melee (1d8+6)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +10 melee (1d8+6) and bite +8 melee (1d8+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, rend 2d8+9, swoop, tear & bite
*Special Qualities:* Scent, superior low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 22, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills:* Listen +12, Move Silently +6 (+14 when flying), Spot +8, Survival +3.
*Feats:* Multiattack, Track
*Environment:* Temperate forests and mountains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or family (2–5)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 6–8 HD (Large); 9–15 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A creature with the burly body of a grizzly bear and the head and talons of a great owl, with broad wings sprouting from its shoulders. Feathers coat its forelegs and upper body and its hindquarters are covered in fur. The beast's huge eyes seem to shine with murderous fury._

A winged owlbear’s coat ranges in colour from brown-black to yellowish grey; with a black or dull ivory beak. A full-grown male can stand as tall as 8 feet and weigh up to 1,200 pounds.

Like other owlbears, the winged variety can speak a debased form of Sylvan that is nothing but bestial screeches to the untutored ear. They never willingly talk to humanoids.

*Combat*
Winged owlbears attack prey—any creature bigger than a mouse—on sight, always fighting to the death. Being ungainly but eerily quiet flyers, they usually approach their prey by air, seeking to ambush them with a surprise swoop attack, then proceed to fight on the ground.

They may carry slain or helpless victims back to their nest to feed to their young—a typical winged owlbear can fly while carrying a load of up to 346 pounds.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a winged owlbear must hit an opponent up to its own size with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity and can proceed to Tear & Bite its opponent.

*Rend (Ex):* If a winged owlbear hits a single opponent with both its claw attacks, or uses its Tear & Bite special attack (see below), it automatically inflicts an additional 2d8+9 damage.

*Swoop (Ex):* A winged owlbear can use a dive attack to make two claw attacks against a single opponent, with a +2 bonus on the attack roll but normal damage (+12 melee and 1d8+6 damage for a typical winged owlbear). If both its claws hit it will Rend (see above) for an additional 2d8+9 points of damage.

*Tear & Bite (Ex):* If a winged owlbear makes a full attack against a single grappled opponent it will automatically Rend its opponent for 2d8+9 points of damage (see above), even if it misses with its claw attacks. Furthermore, it makes bite attacks against grappled foes at its full +9 attack bonus, doing 1d8+6 damage if it hits.

*Superior Low-Light Vision (Ex):* A winged owlbear can see five times as far as a human can in dim light.

*Skills:* Winged owlbears have a +8 racial bonus on Listen checks, and a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Spot checks.

*When in flight, winged owlbears gain a +8 bonus on Move Silently checks.


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## Cleon (Mar 25, 2011)

*Donald Duck*

Presenting our April's Fool monster for this year:

*Walt Disney’s
DONALD DUCK
*
*Written by Tom Moldvay
*
*10th-level fighter/berserker
*ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
HIT POINTS: 138
ARMOR CLASS: 4
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 (+1 or +3)
HIT BONUS: +1 or +3
MOVE: 12"
STRENGTH: 17
INTELLIGENCE: 9
WISDOM: 6
DEXTERITY: 18
CONSTITUTION: 19
CHARISMA: 13

Like many cartoon characters, Donald Duck cannot really be killed. When reduced to zero hit points, he loses interest in the battle and wanders away. He need never make a saving throw, and attacks which require saving throws (even if checking for half damage only) never succeed against Donald. They might produce a visible effect; e.g., poison may turn Donald green for a turn, a fireball may blacken his feathers for a turn, but Donald will then return to normal and be unharmed.

Donald usually wears a blue sailor suit and, while he possesses all the skills one might expect from a sailor, he is an indifferent sailor at best, preferring to remain on land. Donald often delights in playing tricks and practical jokes. He does not, however, take kindly to having the tables turned on him. He has a hair-trigger temper which often sends him into a quacking fury. Even when berserk, he has a +2 bonus both to hit and on damage done (hence the dual statistics). It is left to the DM's discretion to decide when Donald goes berserk.

Donald especially dislikes chipmunks and mountain lions. One of the quickest ways to turn him berserk is to shoot an arrow at him or throw something at his head and then shout: "Hey, Donald, duck!"

_From Dragon Magazine #60 (April 1982, Dragon's Bestiary)_


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2011)

Uhhh, I don't think even Santa was this invincible.  We should make him really tough and maybe give him rejuvenation, but I don't think I like invicible like this.

Should we give him an SQ that he can't talk intelligibly? 

Abilities are spelled out pretty clearly, at least, but we may want to boost Str a bit to go with his likely CR.


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## Mortis (Mar 30, 2011)

I guess he's a humanoid duck (ala Runequest) with 10 levels of Barbarian. Although, given that he has three attacks per round, we should really make sure that he has a BAB of at least 11 - maybe an 11th level of Barb (unless his racial HD gives him another).

Maybe a level or two of Ranger to give him Favored Enemy (Chipmunks and Mountain Lions) - rules wise it should be Animals, but I reckon that's too broad a category.

Mortis


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## Cleon (Mar 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Uhhh, I don't think even Santa was this invincible.  We should make him really tough and maybe give him rejuvenation, but I don't think I like invicible like this.




My preference would be making him effectively unkillable - regeneration plus rejuvenation plus immunity to "Save or Dies".

We could have a few "secret methods" to put him out of the picture, such as:

Some evil mad genius has invented an acid which Toons can't regenerate/rejuvenate from. It's called Dip...

Reducing a Toon to negative hits and using a carefully worded wish/alter reality can transform it into a lifeless painting.



freyar said:


> Should we give him an SQ that he can't talk intelligibly?




It's tempting...

Maybe allow an Int check to figure out what he's saying, unless he's in a Quacking Fury?



freyar said:


> Abilities are spelled out pretty clearly, at least, but we may want to boost Str a bit to go with his likely CR.




Yes, that makes sense.


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## Cleon (Mar 31, 2011)

Mortis said:


> I guess he's a humanoid duck (ala Runequest) with 10 levels of Barbarian. Although, given that he has three attacks per round, we should really make sure that he has a BAB of at least 11 - maybe an 11th level of Barb (unless his racial HD gives him another).
> 
> Maybe a level or two of Ranger to give him Favored Enemy (Chipmunks and Mountain Lions) - rules wise it should be Animals, but I reckon that's too broad a category.
> 
> Mortis




Hmm... He's got an awful lot of HPs for a regular 10th level 1E character.

Maybe he's a 10th level barbarian AND a 10th level fighter?


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## Mortis (Apr 1, 2011)

Hmmm... I'm wondering whether we should do a 'cartoon character' template that gives all these cartoon abilities (immunity to gravity until you realise that you're walking on air etc.). And then applying it to a standard humanoid duck (rabbit, cat, mouse etc) - if there is such a thing.

Mortis


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## Cleon (Apr 2, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Hmmm... I'm wondering whether we should do a 'cartoon character' template that gives all these cartoon abilities (immunity to gravity until you realise that you're walking on air etc.). And then applying it to a standard humanoid duck (rabbit, cat, mouse etc) - if there is such a thing.
> 
> Mortis




I think of cartoon characters as being more a family of creatures with common abilities, like Angels or Demons, than a template.

The immunity to gravity could be fun though.

Something like this?

*Solipsistic Levitation (Su):* If an accident or trap threatens a toon with falling damage, the toon will only fall if it notices the drop with a DC *15* Spot check. For example, if a pit trap opens beneath a toon, or a toon walks off a cliff when in fog, the toon will start "walking on air" as long as it fails its Spot checks (one check per round).

Normally, a toon will always fall if it deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling. However, a toon with the Autohypnosis skill can use solipsistic levitation to walk on air by convince itself it's walking on something solid, the toon must succeeds at a DC *20* Autohypnosis check every round.


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## Mortis (Apr 5, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I think of cartoon characters as being more a family of creatures with common abilities, like Angels or Demons, than a template.



How about a Toon subtype?

Something like this?
<snip>
Looks okay, not sure of the autohypnosis part though - not every campaign uses psionics (and its associated skills). Perhaps an optional 'For thoses that use psionics...' underbar?

Mortis


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2011)

Mortis said:


> How about a Toon subtype?




I could go along with that.



Mortis said:


> Looks okay, not sure of the autohypnosis part though - not every campaign uses psionics (and its associated skills). Perhaps an optional 'For thoses that use psionics...' underbar?
> 
> Mortis




I did wonder about using Concentration, so we could make it an Autohypnosis or Concentration check.


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## Mortis (Apr 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I did wonder about using Concentration, so we could make it an Autohypnosis or Concentration check.



I can accept that 

Mortis


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## Cleon (Apr 8, 2011)

Mortis said:


> I can accept that
> 
> Mortis




Updating...

*Solipsistic Levitation (Su):* If an accident or trap threatens a toon with falling damage, the toon will only fall if it notices the drop with a DC *15*  Spot check. For example, if a pit trap opens beneath a toon, or a toon  walks off a cliff when in fog, the toon will start "walking on air" as  long as it fails its Spot checks (one check per round).

Normally, a toon will always fall if it deliberately jumps instead of  merely slipping or falling. However, a toon with the Autohypnosis skill  can use solipsistic levitation to walk on air by convince itself it's  walking on something solid, the toon must succeeds at a DC *20* Autohypnosis or Concentration check every round.

Will that do?


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2011)

That looks pretty good, although do we need to stress that it *must* make the Spot check each round?


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## Cleon (Apr 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> That looks pretty good, although do we need to stress that it *must* make the Spot check each round?




*Solipsistic Levitation (Su):* If an accident or trap threatens a toon with falling damage, the toon will only fall if it notices the drop with a DC *15*   Spot check (it must attempt one of these Spot check per round). For example, if a pit trap opens beneath a toon, or a toon   walks off a cliff when in fog, the toon will start "walking on air" as   long as it fails its Spot checks.

Normally, a toon will always fall if it deliberately jumps instead of   merely slipping or falling. However, a toon with the Autohypnosis skill   can use solipsistic levitation to walk on air by convince itself it's   walking on something solid, the toon must succeeds at a DC *20* Autohypnosis or Concentration check every round.

Better?


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## Mortis (Apr 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Normally, a toon will always fall if it deliberately jumps instead of   merely slipping or falling. However, a toon with the Autohypnosis skill   can use solipsistic levitation to walk on air by convince itself it's   walking on something solid, the toon must succeeds at a DC *20* Autohypnosis or Concentration check every round.
> 
> Better?




It sort of reads that you must have the Autohypnosis skill to attempt this rather than either that or Concentration.

Maybe change it to

Normally, a toon will always fall if it deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling. However, a toon may use the *Autohypnosis or Concentration skill to convince itself it's walking on something solid*, the toon must *succeed* at a DC *20 skill* check every round.

Mortis


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## freyar (Apr 11, 2011)

This is good for me!


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2011)

Ditto here.  Add Mortis's revision, and it looks great!


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2011)

Mortis said:


> It sort of reads that you must have the Autohypnosis skill to attempt this rather than either that or Concentration.
> 
> Maybe change it to
> 
> ...




Fine by me, or we could do it like this.

However, a toon may use the Autohypnosis or Concentration skill to convince itself it's walking on something solid, this requires a successful DC 20 skill check every round.


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## Mortis (Apr 13, 2011)

Cleon said:


> However, a toon may use the Autohypnosis or Concentration skill to convince itself it's walking on something solid, this requires a successful DC 20 skill check every round.



That looks go as well.

Regrads
Mortis


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## Cleon (Apr 13, 2011)

Mortis said:


> That looks go as well.
> 
> Regrads
> Mortis




I'm OK either way, so shall we proceed to the trickier question of Donald's Toon Invulnerability?


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2011)

I wouldn't mind what you suggested above:



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> My preference would be making him effectively unkillable - regeneration plus rejuvenation plus immunity to "Save or Dies".


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## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> I wouldn't mind what you suggested above:




Let's start on that then.

Rather than immunity to "save or dies" and "save or suck" it'd be closer to say that they only affect a Toon for a few rounds. Something like.

*Some Name [Cartoon Elasticity?] (Ex):* A toon can not be permanently killed, injured or transformed by any weapon or power. If an attack inflicts a special condition on a toon (stunned, confused, paralysed, dead et cetera), the condition will affect the toon for a maximum of *X* rounds, after which the toon fully recovers its abilities and health, even springing back to life if the attack killed the toon. Toons can also recover from any transformation effect, including those that would destroy the toon. A petrified or disintegrated toon will only remain a statue or dust for X rounds before returning to its original form.

What about a _sphere of annihilation_, can that destroy a toon?

Since they're only temporarily affected by the "Dead" condition we could give them Fast Healing instead of Regeneration, but I think Regeneration is a better fit.

*Regeneration (Ex):* A toon regenerates at X hit points per round. If an attack severs a body part, the toon can reattach the part as a standard action. If it can't recover a severed part, the lost part(s) will mysteriously vanish and reappear on the toon Y rounds after it was severed.

Are we going to introduce a "Dip" that can kill a toon? Since they're literally living 3 dimensional pictures, maybe _erase_ can hurt a toon?

Do we want to include a "massive damage causes temporary body displacement" ability, like the way Daffy Duck's face might end up backwards after he's shot in the face?


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2011)

Umm, let's say yes to the sphere.  Hard to imagine avoiding that.  What about a bag of devouring?  Hmmph.

Rejuvenation often has some condition that ends it; we could just mention under rejuvenation that there are rumors of substances that can destroy toons.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Umm, let's say yes to the sphere.  Hard to imagine avoiding that.  What about a bag of devouring?  Hmmph.




Yes, I was thinking they could be killed via _annihilation_ - it's effectively an ultimate form of paint-dissolver.

As for _bags of devouring_ I don't think they'd kill a Toon. It's just a rather peculiar form of digestion. The Toon might end up displaced into another dimension, though.



freyar said:


> Rejuvenation often has some condition that ends it; we could just mention under rejuvenation that there are rumors of substances that can destroy toons.




That'd be OK by me.


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2011)

What about making them take damage from universal solvent, a la undead and holy water?


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Rejuvenation often has some condition that ends it; we could just mention under rejuvenation that there are rumors of substances that can destroy toons.




This. 



freyar said:


> What about making them take damage from universal solvent, a la undead and holy water?




...and that!


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## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> What about making them take damage from universal solvent, a la undead and holy water?




Universal solvent is a great idea, let's do it!


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2011)

Ok, then.  Are we really doing a toon template?  If so, can we get a homebrews or working draft or something?


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, then.  Are we really doing a toon template?  If so, can we get a homebrews or working draft or something?




I still prefer a straight monster over a template.

I'm game to start a Working Draft, but not right now.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2011)

Ok, wasn't sure about that.  Well, do we need to settle on HD and abilities in that case?


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## Cleon (Apr 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, wasn't sure about that.  Well, do we need to settle on HD and abilities in that case?




Did we ever settle on a Type? Last I remember it was leaning toward Native Outsider.

As for HD, do you fancy monster levels or class levels.

I was thinking of making DD a fighter 10 / barbarian 10, but would humour alternatives.


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

Just give him racial HD and special abilities, I think.  Seems easier.

Native Outsider is ok.


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## Cleon (May 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> Just give him racial HD and special abilities, I think.  Seems easier.
> 
> Native Outsider is ok.




Do we give him bonus abilities equal to a fighter and barbarian of the same HD then, or just Rage like a Wolverine or Dire Badger?

At the moment I'm leaning towards the latter.


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## freyar (May 2, 2011)

Rage like those animals might work, though I might let it end before someone dies.  We could just adapt that from the barbarian -- maybe it just ends after X rounds.


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## Cleon (May 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Rage like those animals might work, though I might let it end before someone dies.  We could just adapt that from the barbarian -- maybe it just ends after X rounds.




Works for me. Use one of the higher level "non-fatiguing" Barbarian rages?


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## freyar (May 8, 2011)

Sure.  Or just something like

Rage (Ex): Donald Duck can be provoked into a berserk rage, attacking madly for X rounds. This acts like the barbarian's class feature, granting +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, +2 bonus to Will saves, and –2 AC. However, he cannot end its rage voluntarily, but he is not fatigued afterward.  

That's largely negotiable, but what do you think?


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## Mortis (May 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> However, he cannot end its rage voluntarily



How about 'borrowing' from the frenzied berserker's frenzy ability that requires him to make a Will save to come out of it?



> but he is not fatigued afterward.



Not sure I like that bit. 

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (May 12, 2011)

The Will save is a good idea.  As for the fatigued bit, I'm ok with going either way.  Does anyone else have an opinion?


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## Cleon (May 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> The Will save is a good idea.  As for the fatigued bit, I'm ok with going either way.  Does anyone else have an opinion?




I like the Will save and would cut the fatigued. This version of a Toon basically "bounces back" from negative conditions, so is probably immune to fatigue.

I also fancy increasing the benefits to an 11th level Barbarian's _Greater Rage_, since Mr Duck's almost at that level of HD.

Revising...

*Rage (Ex):* Donald Duck can be provoked into a berserk rage, attacking  madly for X rounds. This acts like the barbarian's Greater Rage class feature,  granting +6 Strength, +6 Constitution, +3 bonus to Will saves, and –2  AC. Donald Duck must succeed at a DC Y Will save to end his rage voluntarily, but he is not fatigued  afterward.


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## freyar (May 16, 2011)

That's ok with me.


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## Mortis (May 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I like the Will save and would cut the fatigued. This version of a Toon basically "bounces back" from negative conditions, so is probably immune to fatigue.



Agreed, I forgot we're taliking about a 'toon' rather than a 'regular' creature. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (May 18, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Agreed, I forgot we're taliking about a 'toon' rather than a 'regular' creature.
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




I suppose I should start on the Working Draft I was threatening you with.


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## Cleon (May 18, 2011)

*Donald Duck Working Draft*

*Donald Duck*
Medium Outsider (Native)
*Hit Dice:* 15d8+75 (142 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares, base speed 30 ft. plus _boots of striding and springing_)
*Armor Class:* 27 (+4 Dex, +7 armour [_+2 glamered shadow elven chain_], +4 shield [_+2 darkwood heavy shield_], +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 23
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +15/+18
*Attack:* _+1 vicious shock scimitar _+20 melee (3d6+5+1d6 electrical/15-20) or repeating light crossbow +19 ranged (1d8/19-20)
*Full Attack:* _+1 vicious shock scimitar _+20/15/+10 melee (3d6+5+1d6 electrical/15-20) or repeating light crossbow +19/+14/+9 ranged (1d8/19-20)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Rage
*Special Qualities:* Cartoon elasticity, regeneration 15, solipsistic levitation, unintelligible, vulnerability to universal solvent
*Saves:* Fort +16, Ref +15, Will +9 [includes _+2 cloak of resistance_]
*Abilities:* Str 17, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 9, Wis 6, Cha 13
*Skills:* Bluff +6, Balance +9**, Climb +6**, Handle Animal +8, Hide +12**, Intimidate +12, Jump +18**, Listen +11, Move Silently +9, Profession (Sailor) +10, Ride +10, Search +4, Sleight of Hand +9**, Spot +11, Survival +3* (+5 following tracks), Swim +8**, Tumble +13**, Use Rope +9
** includes adjustments for _shadow elven chain_ and _boots of striding and springing_
*Feats:* Animal Affinity, Improved Critical (scimitar), Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Reckless Offense, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
*Environment:* Any
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 12
*Treasure:* Equipment (see below)
*Alignment:* Chaotic neutral
*Advancement:* by character class
*Level Adjustment:* —

_An anthropomorphic duck, wearing a blue uniform and a white sailor's hat._

Donald duck is a toon. The toons are a bizarre form of being that  resemble three-dimensional painting come alive, although they are as  solid as a normal creature. They are apparently immortal and  indestructible, at most any damage to them merely mangles their bodies  temporarily before it springs back into its original shape. Toons feel  hunger and enjoy the taste of food, but do not need to eat or breathe. A  "hungry" toon can stay hungry indefinitely without weakening from  starvation.

Donald is a footloose wanderer with a hair-trigger temper and a low  boredom threshold. A sailor by trade, he's had many jobs, most of which  ended in disaster due to his carelessness. He sometimes hires himself  out as a mercenary fighter, guardsman, or monster hunter. Donald has  three young nephews, "toon ducks" like himself.

Donald duck is 4 ft 10 inches tall and weighs 60 pounds.

Donald Duck speaks Common, but does so in such a garbled fashion he can be unintelligible (see below).

*Combat*
Donald fights aggressively against inferior opponents, but, like many a   blowhard, he often shows timidity when facing a superior foe.  If he  feels too  insulted or his nephews are injured, he flies into a berzerk   rage, willing to attack anyone and anything.     

*Cartoon Elasticity (Ex):* Donald Duck cannot be permanently killed, injured or transformed by any weapon or power, except for _universal solvent_ (see vulnerability to universal solvent, below). If an attack inflicts a special condition on Donald (stunned, confused, paralysed, dead et cetera), the condition will affect him for a maximum of 1d10 rounds, after which Donald Duck fully recovers his abilities and health, even springing back to life if the attack killed him. Donald can also recover from any transformation effect, including those that would destroy his body. A petrified or disintegrated Donald Duck will only remain a statue or dust for 1d10 rounds before returning to his original form.

*Rage (Ex):* Donald Duck can be provoked into a berserk rage, attacking madly for 2d10 rounds. This acts like the barbarian's Greater Rage class feature, granting +6 Strength, +6 Constitution, +3 bonus to Will saves, and –2 AC. Donald Duck must succeed at a DC 20 Will save to end his rage voluntarily, but he is not fatigued afterward.

*Regeneration (Ex):* Donald duck regenerates at 15 hit points per round. If an attack severs a body part, he can reattach the part as a standard action. If donald duck can't recover a severed part, the lost part(s) will mysteriously vanish and reappear on his body 1d10 rounds after it was severed.

Donald duck only takes normal damage from _universal solvent_ (see vulnerability to universal solvent, below).

*Solipsistic Levitation (Su):* If an accident or trap threatens Donald Duck with falling damage, Donald will only fall if he notices the drop with a DC 15 Spot check (he must attempt one of these Spot check per round). For example, if a pit trap opens beneath Donald Duck, or he walks off a cliff when in fog, Donald Duck will start "walking on air" as long as he fails his Spot checks.

Normally, Donald Duck will always fall if he deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling. However, a "toon" such as Donald Duck may use the Autohypnosis or Concentration skill to convince itself it's walking on something solid, this requires a successful DC 20 skill check every round.

*Unintelligible (Ex):* Donald Duck speaks with a strange  spitting, squawking voice. Any creature Donald talks to (except for  another toon) must succeed at a DC 25 Sense Motive check to understand what he is saying. A _comprehend languages_ or _tongues_ spell overcomes this speech impediment, as does telepathy.

*Vulnerability To Universal Solvent (Ex):* _Universal solvent_ damages Donald Duck almost as if it were acid. A thrown flask of _universal solvent_  is treated as a ranged touch attack with a 10 ft. range increment. A direct hit by a flask of _universal solvent_  does 2d4 points of damage to Donald Duck; if Donald is within 5 feet of  the point where a flask hits he takes 1 point of damage from the  splash. Donald Duck cannot regenerate damage caused by _universal solvent_, and can be killed permanently by this damage. 

*Skills:* Donald Duck's webbed feet give him a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.

*Equipment: *_+1 vicious shock scimitar_, _+2 glamered shadow elven chain_, _+2 darkwood heavy shield_, _+2 cloak of resistance_, _rust bag of tricks_, _handy haversack_, _boots of striding & Springing_, _folding boat_, repeating light crossbow_, 128 gp.

+1 vicious shock scimitar_ (18315 gp)

_+2 glamered shadow elven chain_ (14600 gp)
_+2 darkwood heavy shield_ (4257 gp)
_+2 cloak of resistance_ (4000 gp)

_rust bag of tricks_ (3000 gp)
_handy haversack _(2000 gp)
_boots of striding & Springing_ (5500 gp)
_folding boat_ (7200 gp)

Change: 128 gp


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## freyar (May 19, 2011)

We should probably change "toon" to Donald Duck as suggested, but I think this is looking pretty good.  Let's put Unintelligibility in the flavor text, but I'm not sure it needs to be an ability (unless we want to force players to read lips or something).


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## Mortis (May 20, 2011)

*Hit Dice:* 10d8+40 (85 hp) [the original had 138 - needs more HD or much higher Con]
15 HD and Con 21 would give 142 hp

*Skills:* 7 skills at 13 [must include Profession (sailor)!]
Or at least a sailor suit as part of his equipment (Armor Bonus? heavy fortification?)

*Advancement:* by character class? (favored class sailor )
Bard surely with perform (sing) 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (May 20, 2011)

Having small children, I've seen plenty of Donald Duck recently.  I'd suggest no ranks or low ranks in Sense Motive, as he's pretty gullible.  Probably ranks in Bluff and Intimidate, as he often tries to trick others or shout and pout until he gets his way.   Swim, of course!   A little bit of Sleight of Hand, as he sometimes lifts something and snickers to himself.  He's a pretty decent Jumper, too.


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## Cleon (May 21, 2011)

Mortis said:


> *Hit Dice:* 10d8+40 (85 hp) [the original had 138 - needs more HD or much higher Con]
> 15 HD and Con 21 would give 142 hp




15 Hit Dice and Con 21 is fine by me - any objections?



Mortis said:


> *Skills:* 7 skills at 13 [must include Profession (sailor)!]
> Or at least a sailor suit as part of his equipment (Armor Bonus? heavy fortification?)




So far we've got Bluff, Intimidate, Jump, Profession (Sailor), Sleight of Hand, Swim.

Finish off with some general athletic skills (Balance, Climb, Tumble), a few ranks in Listen & Spot (Donald doesn't seem very alert), and a few ranks in Use Rope (as a sailor he should know his knots!).

Will that be enough?



Mortis said:


> *Advancement:* by character class? (favored class sailor )
> Bard surely with perform (sing)




Well I guess Barbarian or Fighter would _possibly_ make more sense.


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## freyar (May 24, 2011)

Suggested skills are fine.  I'd have advancement: -, since he's unique.

Ideas for the 6 required feats?


----------



## Cleon (May 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Suggested skills are fine.  I'd have advancement: -, since he's unique.
> 
> Ideas for the 6 required feats?




What about the increased Con and Hit Dice?

I'd rather include an Advancement, but am OK dropping it if Shade is.

Not feeling any inspiration about the feats. Suggestions?


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## Cleon (May 28, 2011)

I suppose it'd help decide on the feats if we could decide on a theme.

I think donald is more of a 2-handed weapon user than a two-weapon wielder, so shall we go for that.

Maybe with a greatax as his weapon?


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## Mortis (Jun 1, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather include an Advancement, but am OK dropping it if Shade is.



If we do advancement, and I'm happy either way, I suggest going down the 'by character class' route.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2011)

I vote "no" on Advancement, since he's unique, and picture him more as an unarmed fighter.  If you insist upon a weapon, I'd pick something more maritime, like a cutlass (scimitar?) or trident.  And for some reason, a light crossbow feels right.


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> I vote "no" on Advancement, since he's unique, and picture him more as an unarmed fighter.  If you insist upon a weapon, I'd pick something more maritime, like a cutlass (scimitar?) or trident.  And for some reason, a light crossbow feels right.




Scimitar and repeating light crossbow? If I remember correctly donald sometimes used a gun, and that's the closest SRD equivalent.

What about the increased HD and Con?


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2011)

Those weapons are ok.  Bumping HD and Con are also ok.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Those weapons are ok.  Bumping HD and Con are also ok.




*Updated* Working Draft.

What value shall we set for the Regeneration X?


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2011)

10, maybe?


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> 10, maybe?




I was thinking 15 or 20. He ought to be able to bounce back from injury ridiculously quickly.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2011)

Go for 15 then.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Go for 15 then.




*Updated* with regeneration 15.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2011)

Ok, looking good.

Cartoon Elasticity is a fine name.  Make X = 1d10 rounds in each case.  

Rage for 1d6 rounds?

I don't think Unintelligibility needs to be an SQ, just in the language line.


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, looking good.
> 
> Cartoon Elasticity is a fine name.  Make X = 1d10 rounds in each case.






freyar said:


> 1d10 rounds is fine by me, I'll Update it.
> 
> Rage for 1d6 rounds?




I'm undecided on the duration. Being a toon, he's effectively immune to fatigue so in theory it might last as long as he's angry.

What DC should we set for the Will save to stop Raging?



freyar said:


> I don't think Unintelligibility needs to be an SQ, just in the language line.




I was thinking we ought to have some rules for it, maybe a Sense Motive skill check to figure out what Donald's actually saying?

I'm adding a "vulnerability to universal solvent" SQ. better not make it "vulnerability to solvent" or people might think he's a substance abuser. 

*Updated*.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2011)

DC 20 to end the rage, maybe?  Even with Iron Will, that's not quite a 50% chance to end the rage.

The universal solvent bit looks good.

If you want to put in a Sense Motive check for the speech, that works.  Maybe DC 15 each time he speaks?


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> DC 20 to end the rage, maybe?  Even with Iron Will, that's not quite a 50% chance to end the rage.
> 
> The universal solvent bit looks good.
> 
> If you want to put in a Sense Motive check for the speech, that works.  Maybe DC 15 each time he speaks?




I'll add the DC 20 to the Rage. We still need to decide on a duration.

DC 15 for the Sense Motive sounds OK by me, but I'm not quite decided on the idea. I reckon we might as well wait for a third opinion.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2011)

How about 11 rounds, like a barbarian with his Con?  Otherwise, just until he or his opponents are dead.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> How about 11 rounds, like a barbarian with his Con?  Otherwise, just until he or his opponents are dead.




Using something random just seemed appropriate for a Toon. Maybe 2d10 rounds, giving the same average duration?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2011)

2d10 rounds is fine.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> 2d10 rounds is fine.




*Updated*.

We've got an "Unintelligibility" SQ to figure out, how's this:

*Unintelligibility (Ex):* Donald Duck speaks with a strange spitting, squawking voice. Any creature Donald talks to (except for another Toon) must succeed at a DC 25*?* Sense Motive check to understand what he is saying. A _comprehend languages_ or _tongues_ spell overcomes this speech impediment, as does telepathy.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

Quack quack quack quack QUACK!

Translated:  That looks good.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Quack quack quack quack QUACK!
> 
> Translated:  That looks good.




*Upquacked* the Working Kwak.

I changed the name to "Unintelligible".


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2011)

Looks fine to me, too, including DC 25.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks fine to me, too, including DC 25.




So, will that do for the special abilities?

Can we finalize the skills and feats.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2011)

Give him something like Search or Handle Animal, and then we can do 13 skills at 7 ranks each.  How's that?  If that's good, let's do feats.


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> Give him something like Search or Handle Animal, and then we can do 13 skills at 7 ranks each.  How's that?  If that's good, let's do feats.




Hmm, didn't he have difficult handling a mule in at least one "Donald goes prospecting" cartoon? That argues against Handle Animal.

Not sure about Search. His nephews are always hiding stuff from him, and he rarely notices...

Still, I don't mind a few ranks in those - he might have those skills, but he's up against opponents who are better than him (stubborn mule! sneaky nephews!)

The *Working Draft* already has proposals for Bluff, Balance, Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Profession (Sailor), Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope as proposals.

That's 12.

I vaguely remember seeing cartoons in which Donald rides about on a donkey or other mount, so add Ride?

Move Silently, for those "tip-toeing through the haunted house" scenes?

Survival, as he's often out in the wield by himself (plus, it fits with the original AD&D stat's Barbarian levels).

*Skills:* Bluff, Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Profession (Sailor), Ride, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope

That's 17 skills, and I think it covers most of the bases. All we need do know is distribute the points!

Oh, and should Donald have a racial bonus to Swim checks? He is a duck after all - those webbed feet have to be good for something!


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2011)

Give him a racial bonus to Swim, sure.  +8?

That's quite a lot of skills now.  I'm fine with dropping Handle Animal and Search.  To get down to 13 skills at 7 ranks each, I'd be happy to drop a couple more.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> Give him a racial bonus to Swim, sure.  +8?




I was thinking +4, or failing that I'd rather meet you halfway with +6.



freyar said:


> That's quite a lot of skills now.  I'm fine with dropping Handle Animal and Search.  To get down to 13 skills at 7 ranks each, I'd be happy to drop a couple more.




I was only going to put a couple of ranks in most of them. Donald Duck seems to have a broad skill base, since he has a lot of jobs in the 'toons, but he just ain't that good at them!

We've got 126 skill ranks to play with, which it 17 skills at 7 ranks with 7 left over.

However, I'd rather give him a base of 5 ranks in all his skills (for synergy), then use the remaining 41 on his 4-6 "most important" skills.

We just need to decide what those important skills are.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2011)

+4 is fine on Swim.

Most important skills: Listen, Spot, Profession (sailor) seem to fit.  Jump seems right for a toon.  Maybe Tumble, too?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> +4 is fine on Swim.
> 
> Most important skills: Listen, Spot, Profession (sailor) seem to fit.  Jump seems right for a toon.  Maybe Tumble, too?




Those sound good. I'd put some extra into Use Rope too.

I'll put a couple more into Intimidate - didn't old school Donald Duck really but the fear into his nephews when he lost his temper?

How's this?

*Skill Ranks:* Bluff 5, Balance 5, Climb 5, Handle Animal 5, Intimidate 9, Jump 10,  Listen 13, Move Silently 5, Profession (Sailor) 13, Ride 5, Search 5, Sleight of  Hand 5, Spot 13, Survival 5, Swim 5, Tumble 9, Use Rope 9


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2011)

Works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Works for me.




I think we'd better wait for Shade before I update the Draft.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2011)

What, no Knowledge (the planes)?  

Skills look good.  He's definitely a duck-of-all-trades-master-of-none.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> What, no Knowledge (the planes)?
> 
> Skills look good.  He's definitely a duck-of-all-trades-master-of-none.




What can I say, he's an ignorant duck.

Updated *Working Draft*.

I switched 4 ranks from Use Rope and 1 rank from Profession (Sailor) to give him 5 ranks in Hide. He had a Use Rope of +13, which seemed too high. Besides, he's often sneaking about in the cartoons.

Speaking of toons, I changed some "toons" to "Donald Duck" in Cartoon Elasticity and Solipsistic Levitation.

Should we give him some equipment?

A 15 HD adventurer would have some magic gear, and he's roughly equivalent. Maybe a magic weapon or two and magic armour?

Hmm, I guess we'd better sort out his feats first, though.


----------



## freyar (Jul 5, 2011)

Rapid Reload (repeating light crossbow)?  That kind of feels like a waste, though.

Imp Init?  Iron Will?  Not much coming to mind for him.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> Rapid Reload (repeating light crossbow)?  That kind of feels like a waste, though.
> 
> Imp Init?  Iron Will?  Not much coming to mind for him.




Yes, I'm not getting much inspiration either.

Shall we put the feats on the back burner and argue about alignment. That's always a good way to waste time.


----------



## freyar (Jul 6, 2011)

Starting bid: CG.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Starting bid: CG.



It has been awhile since I've seen a Donald Duck cartoon, but IIRC he doesn't particularly act Good.

I guess I would plumb for CN.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Jul 6, 2011)

That's fair enough, I guess.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's fair enough, I guess.




Chaotic Neutral would fit him better if you ask my opinion, but the Dragon version is NG so I suggested CG as a compromise.

CN would be my preference, but I'd be happy(ish) with CG. He's just a bad-tempered CG!


----------



## freyar (Jul 8, 2011)

Let's see if we get any more votes.  If not, how about CG (CN tendencies)?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's see if we get any more votes.  If not, how about CG (CN tendencies)?




3rd edition doesn't use "tendencies" in the monster stats though, does it?

Either CG or CN would be OK by me, though I have a slight leaning towards the latter.


----------



## freyar (Jul 10, 2011)

Hmm, I guess they only do that for the outer planes.   Unless we could put "always chaotic, usually good."    I guess we need to wait for more votes.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I guess they only do that for the outer planes.   Unless we could put "always chaotic, usually good."    I guess we need to wait for more votes.




But doesn't that imply Donald occasionally changes his alignment from CG to CN or CE? That seems a bit odd for a unique creature.

Well, I suppose it'd go with the "always chaotic" bit, but I'd rather pick just the one alignment.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 11, 2011)

As stated above I prefer CN, let's wait to see what Shade prefers.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Jul 11, 2011)

Mortis said:


> As stated above I prefer CN, let's wait to see what Shade prefers.
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




I lean towards CN for Donald too, so that's 2 votes for CN and 1 from Freyar for CG.

Might as well wait for Shade, but it looks like we're heading for Chaotic Neutral.


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2011)

Since Donald's unique, he doesn't get an "always", "often", "usually", etc. on his alignment line.  He simply is one alignment.

I'd have to lean towards Chaotic neutral.  Although he's nice most of the time, he pulls some pretty cruel pranks and his negligence often causes disastrous results for his friends.


----------



## freyar (Jul 14, 2011)

The bit about "usually" was a bit of a joke, actually. Guess my smiley wasn't funny enough. 

CN it is, I guess.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Since Donald's unique, he doesn't get an "always", "often", "usually", etc. on his alignment line.  He simply is one alignment.
> 
> I'd have to lean towards Chaotic neutral.  Although he's nice most of the time, he pulls some pretty cruel pranks and his negligence often causes disastrous results for his friends.




Sounds like everyone Chaotically minded. As if I didn't suspect it all along...

Updated *Working Draft*.

It looks like the raw statistics and special abilities are getting close to being finished.

Shall we get back to Feats and equipment?


----------



## freyar (Jul 14, 2011)

Power Attack, Reckless Offense, ...???

By the way, since he's unique, shouldn't advancement be -?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Power Attack, Reckless Offense, ...???




Those'd work. Weapon Focus and Improved Critical for his scimitar?



freyar said:


> By the way, since he's unique, shouldn't advancement be -?




Yes, I should change it.


----------



## freyar (Jul 16, 2011)

Ok, that gets us up to 4 feats.  Anyone remember Donald doing anything like bull rushing, overrunning, tripping, etc, opponents?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, that gets us up to 4 feats.  Anyone remember Donald doing anything like bull rushing, overrunning, tripping, etc, opponents?




From my vague memory of his approach to combat, he tends to lose his rag and charge into a brawl, which turns into a cloud of movement from which fists shoot out at random.

Not sure what feat that represents, though. Can't be Whirlwind Attack, 'cause he might only be facing one foe. 

Improved Bull Rush would seem to suit him best of that list, I guess.

Another from the Power Attack tree for the last feat?  Cleave or Improved Sunder?

I fancy Sunder; Toons often go around chopping up inanimate objects.


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2011)

I'd go for some non-combat feats.  He often cares for animals, some maybe Animal Affinity?   My 2-year-old watches lots of Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, and Donald is always aquiring pets (Boo-Boo Chicken being a frequent one).   Persuasive is also a good fit.   I could see Improved Feint if you want another combat feat.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 20, 2011)

Cleon said:


> From my vague memory of his approach to combat, he tends to lose his rag and charge into a brawl, which turns into a cloud of movement from which fists shoot out at random.
> 
> Not sure what feat that represents, though. Can't be Whirlwind Attack, 'cause he might only be facing one foe.



Flurry of Blows? yeah I know it's a class ability and not a feat. :-(

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Jul 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd go for some non-combat feats.  He often cares for animals, some maybe Animal Affinity?   My 2-year-old watches lots of Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, and Donald is always aquiring pets (Boo-Boo Chicken being a frequent one).   Persuasive is also a good fit.   I could see Improved Feint if you want another combat feat.




I don't recall Donald having much truck with pets, maybe my recollections are all of an Oldschool Donald...

The closest I can remember is Donald dragging a mule about, and he didn't seem to have much affinity with it...

No, I don't like Animal Affinity. If you want a non-combat feat I'd rather pick something like Run. Maybe even Run and Fleet of Foot.

Alternatively, how about Jack Of All Trades? It'd be a good match for his apparent ability to do almost anything (but not very well).

Hmm, Donald doesn't meet the 6th level prereq. How about giving him Jack Of All Trades as a bonus feat?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 21, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Flurry of Blows? yeah I know it's a class ability and not a feat. :-(




That's actually a pretty good match, but I think we can leave it out.


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I don't recall Donald having much truck with pets, maybe my recollections are all of an Oldschool Donald...




I think so.  My kids were watching another Mickey Mouse Clubhouse the other day, and Donald had a pet lion.  



Cleon said:


> Alternatively, how about Jack Of All Trades? It'd be a good match for his apparent ability to do almost anything (but not very well).
> 
> Hmm, Donald doesn't meet the 6th level prereq. How about giving him Jack Of All Trades as a bonus feat?




He's pretty versatile and loaded with stuff as is, so I'd probably suggest not.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I think so.  My kids were watching another Mickey Mouse Clubhouse the other day, and Donald had a pet lion.




Well if it means such a lot to you, I won't stand in the way of your Animal Affinity.


----------



## freyar (Aug 15, 2011)

Ok, Animal Affinity.  What about the last one?  Imp Feint?  We don't use that much.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, Animal Affinity.  What about the last one?  Imp Feint?  We don't use that much.




What have we agreed on so far? The feat selection is getting a bit confused.


----------



## freyar (Aug 16, 2011)

We have Power Attack, Reckless Offense, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Imp Crit (scimitar), and Animal Affinity.  And I just went along with Shade on Imp Feint, but Persuasive could work.  Anyway, we need one more.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> We have Power Attack, Reckless Offense, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Imp Crit (scimitar), and Animal Affinity.  And I just went along with Shade on Imp Feint, but Persuasive could work.  Anyway, we need one more.




Erm, where's the Combat Expertise he needs for Improved Feint? 

Anyhow, I'd prefer Improved Sunder, since I remember 'toons often chopping stuff up with axes. An activity which would suit Barbarian Donald, methinks.


----------



## freyar (Aug 17, 2011)

Err, right, oops. 

Imp Sunder is ok with me, if Shade agrees.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Err, right, oops.
> 
> Imp Sunder is ok with me, if Shade agrees.




Same here.


----------



## Shade (Aug 18, 2011)

"Hulk Smash" Donald has my blessing.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> "Hulk Smash" Donald has my blessing.




Puny mortal escapes Duck's wrath for few more rounds!

Updating *Working Draft*.

On to equipment?


----------



## freyar (Aug 23, 2011)

Seems like he could use some armor, but his weapons look good.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems like he could use some armor, but his weapons look good.




He definitely is under-AC'd for his CR, but I would like to at least give him a magical weapon.

Maybe a _+1 vicious scimitar_, since his regeneration means he doesn't need to worry about the backlash damage that much?


----------



## freyar (Aug 25, 2011)

Fair enough on the weapon.  If we give him treasure as an NPC, there's still plenty for some armor.  Just plain +X, or add a property to it?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Fair enough on the weapon.  If we give him treasure as an NPC, there's still plenty for some armor.  Just plain +X, or add a property to it?




What's our budget again?

Considering his cartoon resistances, Donald has little use of most of the armor properties. Maybe Glamered (+2700gp), so it can look like a sailor suit?

He often sneaks about, suggesting Shadow (+3750gp) and/or Silent Move (+3750gp), but _boots / cloak of elvenkind_ are a third cheaper (2500 gp ea).


----------



## freyar (Aug 30, 2011)

Is NPC wealth by level in the SRD?  If so, I've forgotten where...


----------



## Cleon (Aug 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Is NPC wealth by level in the SRD?  If so, I've forgotten where...




No, it's not in the SRD. You've got to pull out a hardcopy DMG 'cause I'm too lazy to go to my shelves...


----------



## freyar (Sep 2, 2011)

Cleon said:


> No, it's not in the SRD. You've got to pull out a hardcopy DMG 'cause I'm too lazy to go to my shelves...



Must remember....


----------



## freyar (Sep 3, 2011)

Ok, a 15th level NPC had 59000gp gear value.  A +1 vicious scimitar is only 8315 gp, so there's plenty to play with.  We could improve the weapon quite a bit, or even go for improved silent moves and improved shadow and glamered on the armor.  What do you like?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, a 15th level NPC had 59000gp gear value.  A +1 vicious scimitar is only 8315 gp, so there's plenty to play with.  We could improve the weapon quite a bit, or even go for improved silent moves and improved shadow and glamered on the armor.  What do you like?




I'd like _+2 glamered shadow elven chain _(14600) and a _shield_, either _+2 _(4000) or _+3 _(9000), depending on what else we want.

Spend another 10000 gp on the scimitar for another plus-equivalent - _shock_ for 1d6 electrical damage?

That adds up to 37,915 or 41,915 gold pieces, leaving us 17,085 or 21,085 - enough for a nice miscellaneous magic item or two.


----------



## freyar (Sep 6, 2011)

Assuming I've done the numbers right on the NPC wealth.  I forget if we usually base it on CR or HD for uniques like Donald.  Shade might remember.

Any ideas for the other items?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Assuming I've done the numbers right on the NPC wealth.  I forget if we usually base it on CR or HD for uniques like Donald.  Shade might remember.
> 
> Any ideas for the other items?




A _bag of tricks_ (900, 3000 or 6300 gp) or _bag of holding_ (2500, 7400, 10000 or 10000gp) are pretty "cartoonish" items that would fit Donald.

A _portable hole_ would do too, but at 20000 gold it's likely too costly.

_Boots of striding and springing_ (5500 gp) are pretty nifty, although _boots of speed_ (12000 gp) are more useful in combat.

A _cloak of resistance_ is useful but boring.


----------



## freyar (Sep 8, 2011)

Let's go for that 7400gp bag of holding and one of the pairs of boots (depending on how much money we're comfortable spending on him).


----------



## Cleon (Sep 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's go for that 7400gp bag of holding and one of the pairs of boots (depending on how much money we're comfortable spending on him).




I fancy a _tan bag of tricks_, the _boots of striding & springing_, and a _+3 cloak of resistance_. That's within our budget and leaves 200 gp in change.


----------



## freyar (Sep 12, 2011)

That's fine.  Though I'd still like Shade to confirm the budget....


----------



## Cleon (Sep 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's fine.  Though I'd still like Shade to confirm the budget....




I'm OK waiting.


----------



## Mortis (Sep 14, 2011)

It's perhaps a bit late in the day (and maybe a little too expensive - 12,000gp) but a _rod of wonder_ seems rather 'toonish' to me.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Sep 14, 2011)

Mortis said:


> It's perhaps a bit late in the day (and maybe a little too expensive - 12,000gp) but a _rod of wonder_ seems rather 'toonish' to me.
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




Yes, I wondered about that rod (if you'll pardon the expression ), but decided I preferred a more consistently useful magic item.


----------



## freyar (Sep 15, 2011)

Hmm, it does sound good for him, though.  Wonder if we can squeeze out the cash.


----------



## Shade (Sep 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, it does sound good for him, though.  Wonder if we can squeeze out the cash.




I see what you did there.  

I haven't been keeping up well with this one, but I sure hope you've given our sailor a folding boat!

(It's 7,200 gp, if you missed it.)


----------



## Cleon (Sep 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I see what you did there.
> 
> I haven't been keeping up well with this one, but I sure hope you've given our sailor a folding boat!
> 
> (It's 7,200 gp, if you missed it.)




Fine by me, although we'd have to swap a couple of items for cheaper versions to keep it within budget.

How's this:

_+1 vicious shock scimitar_  (18315 gp)
_
+2 glamered shadow elven chain_ (14600 gp)_
+2 darkwood heavy shield_ (4257 gp)_
+2 cloak of resistance_ (4000 gp)
_
rust bag of tricks_ (3000 gp)
_handy haversack _(2000 gp)
_boots of striding & Springing_ (5500 gp)
_folding boat_ (7200 gp)

Change: 128 gp


----------



## freyar (Sep 19, 2011)

I like that!  Shade, did I do the overall budget correctly (treat as NPC of same HD)?  Do you remember how we've done that?


----------



## Shade (Sep 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> I like that!  Shade, did I do the overall budget correctly (treat as NPC of same HD)?  Do you remember how we've done that?




That's generally how we've done it, although on occasion we've fudged and used the treasure value for CR.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> That's generally how we've done it, although on occasion we've fudged and used the treasure value for CR.




OK, shall I add the equipment list to the Working Draft then?


----------



## freyar (Sep 21, 2011)

Go for it.  Let's see how he looks.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> Go for it.  Let's see how he looks.




I updated the *Working Draft* yesterday, but my new post on this thread to link to the Draft seems to have gone AWOL.

Anyhow, feel free to look see.


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2011)

Ok, so we just need treasure and CR.

First, we'll need CR to figure out how big the treasure is (since the treasure should include the equipment).  I'd guess around CR 12 or 13.  What say you?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, so we just need treasure and CR.
> 
> First, we'll need CR to figure out how big the treasure is (since the treasure should include the equipment).  I'd guess around CR 12 or 13.  What say you?




That feels about right. He may be tough to get rid of, but he's not that formidable. Donald's notably weak at ranged attacks, for a start.


----------



## freyar (Oct 2, 2011)

Which do you think, 12 or 13?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Which do you think, 12 or 13?




Ah, let's say 12, he's not that tough for a sailor. Popeye would make patê out of him.


----------



## freyar (Oct 5, 2011)

Ok, good, but only if we bring the spinach.

Someone feel like working out what treasure level that means he has?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, good, but only if we bring the spinach.
> 
> Someone feel like working out what treasure level that means he has?




Maybe, but that someone's not me, at least at the moment.


----------



## freyar (Oct 7, 2011)

Umph, nor I for a couple of weeks.

I think this is the latest in the year we've been working on our only April Fool's conversion!


----------



## Cleon (Oct 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Umph, nor I for a couple of weeks.
> 
> I think this is the latest in the year we've been working on our only April Fool's conversion!




October fool!


----------



## freyar (Oct 9, 2011)

Might be November fool at this rate!   Well, I guess we'll have him ready for next April at the latest!


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Might be November fool at this rate!   Well, I guess we'll have him ready for next April at the latest!




Well, we seem to be pretty close to finishing off Donald's mechanical elements, so hopefully he'll be finished by Christmas.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

Boy, didn't we finish Donald?

His stats are still missing flavour text and a CR - it looks like we were more-or-less settled on 12.


----------



## freyar (Jul 22, 2012)

Whew, we totally forgot about this!

CR 12, I guess, yes.  

Did standard treasure make sense with his equipment?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> Whew, we totally forgot about this!
> 
> CR 12, I guess, yes.
> 
> Did standard treasure make sense with his equipment?




Well there's no hurry, since I don't think we're going to upload this one to the Creature Catalog!

He has no treasure mentioned in the original magazine article, so I'd be fine if he only has his equipment for treasure. It's worth a lot more than a CR 12 monster's standard treasure, anyhow.

Still, "standard" seems a useful default.

Which do you prefer?

Updating *Working Draft* with CR 12.


----------



## freyar (Jul 24, 2012)

Well, CR 12 actually only gets 9800 gp as standard treasure, and we're well above that.  So maybe just say "gear"?

Good point about uploading to the CC --- he was in Dragon Mag, but I imagine there could be trademark issues....


----------



## Cleon (Jul 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, CR 12 actually only gets 9800 gp as standard  treasure, and we're well above that.  So maybe just say "gear"?




So what would you like in the Treasure entry, exactly?



freyar said:


> Good point about uploading to the CC --- he was in Dragon Mag, but I imagine there could be trademark issues....




I have no intention of opening that particular kettle of fish, so let's keep Donald to these boards as a "homebrew".


----------



## freyar (Jul 25, 2012)

How about Treasure: see text with an explanation that his gear is his treasure?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about Treasure: see text with an explanation that his gear is his treasure?




Would not "Treasure: Equipment (see below)" cover that?


----------



## freyar (Jul 26, 2012)

Then have a statement again in the background saying he keeps no treasure other than his equipment?  Or if you don't want that, we could just remove "(see below)."


----------



## Cleon (Jul 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> Then have a statement again in the background saying he keeps no treasure other than his equipment?  Or if you don't want that, we could just remove "(see below)."




The "see below" was a reference to the Equipment entry Donald has in Combat, not a suggestion I wanted to add to the flavour text.


----------



## freyar (Jul 28, 2012)

Ahhh, right, missed that.  I assume you'll be taking out the price listing from that before we're finished.

Any ideas on tactics?  Maybe he's a conservative fighter until he flies into a berzerk rage?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> Ahhh, right, missed that.  I assume you'll be taking out the price listing from that before we're finished.
> 
> Any ideas on tactics?  Maybe he's a conservative fighter until he flies into a berzerk rage?




Well if I remember my cartoons rightly Donald is often a bit of a blowhard, who often starts aggressively until he faces a tough foe, whereupon he often turns from duck to chicken, but if a powerful opponent triggered his rage (i.e. by spanking his nephews), Donald could make short work of them.


----------



## freyar (Jul 30, 2012)

Hmmmm.

Donald fights aggressively against inferior opponents, but, like many a blowhard, he is more than happy to flee a superior foe.  If he feels too insulted or when his nephews are insulted, he flies into a berzerk rage, willing to attack anyone and anything.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmmm.
> 
> Donald fights aggressively against inferior opponents, but, like many a blowhard, he is more than happy to flee a superior foe.  If he feels too insulted or when his nephews are insulted, he flies into a berzerk rage, willing to attack anyone and anything.




Hmm...

I like this rephrasing a bit better:

Donald fights aggressively against inferior opponents, but, like many a  blowhard, he often show timidity when facing a superior foe.  If he feels too  insulted or his nephews are injured, he flies into a berzerk  rage, willing to attack anyone and anything.


----------



## freyar (Jul 31, 2012)

Looks good if we change "show" to "shows."  

Description: An anthropomorphic duck, wearing a blue uniform and a white sailor's hat.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> Looks good if we change "show" to "shows."




Updating *Working Draft*. 	



freyar said:


> Description: An anthropomorphic duck, wearing a blue uniform and a white sailor's hat.




That'll do I guess.


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2012)

Do you have any ideas for background text?  I admit I'm feeling a bit blank on this one.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> Do you have any ideas for background text?  I admit I'm feeling a bit blank on this one.




Do we need much background text? Doesn't everybody know Donald?


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2012)

Probably, but I don't feel like we should leave it completely empty.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> Probably, but I don't feel like we should leave it completely empty.




Hmm...

Donald duck is a toon. The toons are a bizarre form of being that resemble three-dimensional painting come alive, although they are as solid as a normal creature. They are apparently immortal and indestructible, at most any damage to them merely mangles their bodies temporarily before it springs back into its original shape. Toons feel hunger and enjoy the taste of food, but do not need to eat or breathe. A "hungry" toon can stay hungry indefinitely without weakening from starvation.

Donald is a footloose wanderer with a hair-trigger temper and a low boredom threshold. A sailor by trade, he's had many jobs, most of which ended in disaster due to his carelessness. He sometimes hires himself out as a mercenary fighter, guardsman, or monster hunter. Donald has three young nephews, "toon ducks" like himself.

Donald duck is X tall and weighs Y pounds.


----------



## freyar (Aug 2, 2012)

That'll work.  He seems a bit short, so 5-1/2 ft, but a tad rotund.  On the other hand, he's a bird, so he should be lighter.  125 lb?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> That'll work.  He seems a bit short, so 5-1/2 ft, but a tad rotund.  On the other hand, he's a bird, so he should be lighter.  125 lb?




I'd better check whether it gave a height and weight in the original Dragon article.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 4, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'd better check whether it gave a height and weight in the original Dragon article.




Okay, I've checked Dragon 60 and it doesn't give a height or weight.

5'6" seems a bit too tall - Donald's pretty short compared to most of the anthropomorphic Toons he interacts with.

Maybe 5' or 5'3"?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 4, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Okay, I've checked Dragon 60 and it doesn't give a height or weight.
> 
> 5'6" seems a bit too tall - Donald's pretty short compared to most of the anthropomorphic Toons he interacts with.
> 
> Maybe 5' or 5'3"?




Okay, _Dragon 48_ has stats for Daffy Duck that say he's 4'10".

Donald Duck ought to be about the same height, surely. Is he taller or shorter than Daffy? Considering the spluttering outrage either of them would unleash on us if we make the other a "superior" height, I think we'd better make Donald 4'10" too.

I'll worry about the weight later.


----------



## Melatuis (Aug 6, 2012)

I do not remember Donold ever flying outside of being in an airplane.  Daffy I think did, once.


----------



## freyar (Aug 7, 2012)

Nonetheless, he's a bird.     How about 70lb weight?  That's just underweight for a 4ft 10in male by BMI.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 8, 2012)

Melatuis said:


> I do not remember Donold ever flying outside of being in an airplane.  Daffy I think did, once.




Daffy flew in quite a few of his early cartoons, if I remember rightly, but lost the ability as the character evolved to become less kwazy and ducklike.

It's a bit beside the point, since this version of Donald doesn't fly.


----------



## freyar (Aug 10, 2012)

Did you worry about the weight yet?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> Did you worry about the weight yet?




No worries!

Let's see, a Common Eider grows 20-28 inches long and about 2-6 pounds.

Donald is more-or-less duck shaped but vertical rather than horizontal.

If we make him 4'10", that's 58 inches. Using an Eider's length & weight and "cubing up" the size would give a weight range of ... 48.778 to 53.329.

That suggests 50 pounds is a reasonable weight.

Seems a bit light, but he is basically a living layer of paint.

Your 70 pounds weight would do too, or we could average the two and call it 60 pounds.


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2012)

Let's just call it 60 lb.  He's a bird, but I think he's a touch overweight.


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## Cleon (Aug 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's just call it 60 lb.  He's a bird, but I think he's a touch overweight.




So he's like Heston Blumenthal's restaurant?

I'm fine with 60 lbs.

 Updating *Donald Duck Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Aug 16, 2012)

Finally, we have

Description: An anthropomorphic duck, wearing a blue uniform and a white sailor's hat.
and

Donald duck is a toon. The toons are a bizarre form of being that resemble three-dimensional painting come alive, although they are as solid as a normal creature. They are apparently immortal and indestructible, at most any damage to them merely mangles their bodies temporarily before it springs back into its original shape. Toons feel hunger and enjoy the taste of food, but do not need to eat or breathe. A "hungry" toon can stay hungry indefinitely without weakening from starvation.

Donald is a footloose wanderer with a hair-trigger temper and a low boredom threshold. A sailor by trade, he's had many jobs, most of which ended in disaster due to his carelessness. He sometimes hires himself out as a mercenary fighter, guardsman, or monster hunter. Donald has three young nephews, "toon ducks" like himself.

Donald duck is 4 ft 10 inches tall and weighs 60 pounds.


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> Finally, we have
> 
> Description: An anthropomorphic duck, wearing a blue uniform and a white sailor's hat.
> and
> ...




Yes, and I think that'll do.

Updating *Donald Duck Working Draft*. 	

Is that it?


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2012)

I think so!  Sorry we forgot about you for so long, Donald!


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think so!  Sorry we forgot about you for so long, Donald!




Well better late than never.

Hmm, the *Donald Duck Working Draft* is missing a critical threat range in the Full Attack's scimitar. Better fix that.

...and now we're done!


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2012)

Time to retire this thread until March or April, I guess....


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## Cleon (Aug 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> Time to retire this thread until March or April, I guess....




...Fine by me, although I can't think of any foolish enough creatures to convert from Dragon magazine issues. We seem to have done them already, except for the other 'Toons, and I'm not sure I fancy doing them.


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