# Converting Al-Qadim creatures



## Shade (Feb 17, 2011)

Part Three. 

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2011)

*Dog, Saluqi*
Climate/Terrain: Any arid land 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Pack 
Activity Cycle: Night 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Semi (2-4) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 3d4 
Armor Class: 7 
Movement: 18 
Hit Dice: 2 
THAC0: 19 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1d8 
Special Attacks: Overbearing 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: S (3’ tall) 
Morale: Elite (13-14) 
XP Value: 120 

Saluqi are the greyhounds of the desert, known for their hunting skills, favored by the jann. They are sleek black animals with gray markings, thin whiplike bodies, and long narrow heads. Their pedigrees are rigorously maintained, allowing owners to breed only from the finest stock.

Combat: These natural desert hounds hunt by sight rather than by smell, and they prefer to stay in packs rather than hunt alone or in scattered lines. Their blurring-fast speed allows saluqi a -2 modifier to their initiative rolls. The hounds have infravision to a 120-foot range, and they can faultlessly track quarry by its heat trail if it has passed over ground within the past three turns.

Saluqi hounds are also known for their ability to bring down opponents by attacking en masse. This overbearing attack is resolved by a single attack roll against AC 10, allowing only modifiers for Dexterity and magical pluses of armor or other protective devices. There must be a minimum of four hounds for the overbearing attack, and each hound over four gives the pack an additional +1 attack modifier. If successful, the hounds knock their opponent to the ground, and unless a saving throw vs. petrification is successful, the opponent is stunned and cannot take any action that round. To rise, a victim must spend a full round doing nothing but regaining his footing in the midst of the pack. All attempts at spellcasting are ruined by the pack, regardless of whether the overbearing attack succeeds.

After the initial overbearing attack, such a victim is attacked by individual members of the pack with +4 modified to the hounds’ attack rolls and no Dexterity adjustment for the victim’s AC. Some packs have also been trained to hold down their foes; this requires that two dogs score successful hits on their downed opponent. If the dogs succeed, the victim still must spend a full round to stand up, but he must also make a successful Strength check with a -1 penalty for each dog that hits. Failure indicates the victim was dragged back down.

Habitat/Society: Saluqi are a carefully bred strain of hounds, and they are almost always found in the care of a huntsman who has trained them from birth. They respond to a number of standardized calls: “Attack, guard, return, pursue and return, fetch, stay”, and “hold” are among the most common.

Saluqi do not flourish if they spend too much time in the sun; nomads keep them in tents during the hottest part of the day. Wild packs usually live near some cave or overhanging shelter, where they can retreat from the burning sun.

Ecology: Saluqi greyhounds hunt small game and are good at flushing antelope or other grazing animals from cover. Wild packs of saluqi do exist, but they are extremely rare, as the jann hunt these mutts and neuter them, then give them as gifts to other desert tribesmen.

*Jungle Hound*
It is said that a related breed of hound has been created by jungle dwellers. These hounds use similar tactics, but are much better at tracking by smell than by sight – so much so that they can follow a trail up to a week old. They are smaller than the saluqi hounds, with orange and yellow patches of fur dappling their dark coats instead of gray.

Originally appeared in ALQ2 - Assassin Mountain (1993).


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2011)

Seems like we don't need to worry about the 1000-post-count limit any more, if you check the meta forum.

As for the saluqi, base them on riding dogs or maybe another dog we've converted?  Give them pack tactics with a group overrun and stunning attack.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems like we don't need to worry about the 1000-post-count limit any more, if you check the meta forum.




_Now_ you tell me.  



freyar said:


> As for the saluqi, base them on riding dogs or maybe another dog we've converted?  Give them pack tactics with a group overrun and stunning attack.




That soudns about right.  Keep 'em animals, or does something suggest magical beast?


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2011)

"Saluqi" is apparently the Arabic name for real Bedouin hounds, so I'd say Animal.


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## Cleon (Feb 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems like we don't need to worry about the 1000-post-count limit any more, if you check the meta forum.
> 
> As for the saluqi, base them on riding dogs or maybe another dog we've converted?  Give them pack tactics with a group overrun and stunning attack.




We should consider keeping them Small. A Saluqi is on the cusp of Small-Medium, typically weighing about 20-25 kg (44-55 pounds). If we make them Small it'll help explain the AD&D stats requiring 4 of them to overbear an adventurer (a Medium sized humanoid).



freyar said:


> "Saluqi" is apparently the Arabic name for real Bedouin hounds, so I'd say Animal.




Quite. They're a real world breed and should be Animals.


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## Cleon (Feb 20, 2011)

After reading the description more closely, I notice several significant differences between these Saluqis and the real world dog breed.

Firstly, they have 120' infravision, which allows them to infallibly track by heat-tracks up to 30 minutes old.

Secondly, they're nocturnal ("Activity Cycle: Night"). Real world saluqi hunt in daylight.

How about splitting it into two creatures? A real world Saluqi, modified from the SRD Dog (1 HD Small Animal, bites for 1d4+1) and a "Jann Saluqi" (2 HD Small Magical Beast, bites for 1d6+1, Int 3-4, Darkvision 120 ft., "Infallibly Tracking" SQ).


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## Cleon (Feb 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Dog, Saluqi*
> Climate/Terrain: Any arid land
> Frequency: Uncommon
> Organization: Pack
> ...




By the way, these stats are from the *Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One* (1994). The _*Assassin Mountain*_ version, the "Greyhound, Saluqi", is basically the same. The biggest mechanical difference is its infravision is 120 yards, not 120 feet.

Funnily enough, the _*Assassin Mountain*_ Saluqi has "Activity Cycle: *Diurnal*" instead of "Night" and then starts combat with "these *nocturnal* desert hounds".


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## Cleon (Feb 20, 2011)

Oh, and do we want to do the Jungle Hound as well?


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2011)

OK, we can make both an animal and magical beast version.   I think the jungle hounds should be an underbar, rather than a separate creature.  The question is whether jungle hound are the animal version, the magical beast version, or both?

Added the animal version to Homebrews.

I took the standard dog stats, but since it straddles the line between Small and Medium, placed Str and Dex between the dog and riding dog.

Since these are "sight" hounds, should we reduce the tracking by scent bonus?

EDIT:  Added the jann saluqi as well.


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## Cleon (Feb 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> OK, we can make both an animal and magical beast version.   I think the jungle hounds should be an underbar, rather than a separate creature.  The question is whether jungle hound are the animal version, the magical beast version, or both?




We might as well make the Jungle Hound a Magical Beast since it's a variant on the 2HD Saluqi.



Shade said:


> Added the animal version to Homebrews.
> 
> I took the standard dog stats, but since it straddles the line between Small and Medium, placed Str and Dex between the dog and riding dog.
> 
> Since these are "sight" hounds, should we reduce the tracking by scent bonus?




That looks a good start on the Animal version.

Since these are Greyhounds, I'd consider making them faster - they need to catch hares and antelopes, remember. Maybe give them Speed 50 ft. and Run?

I would cut the tracking by scent bonus out entirely.



Shade said:


> EDIT:  Added the jann saluqi as well.




How's this for Infallible Tracker?

*Infallible Tracking (Su):* A jann saluqi has supernatural eyesight that sees recent trails as a glowing set of tracks. This allows the saluqi to infallibly follow any trail up to 30 minutes old, provided the surface the trail crosses is not fluid (i.e. the saluqi can not use infallible tracking if the creature flies away or enters water). Anti-divination spells such as _nondetection_ are effective against infallible tracking.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2011)

Agreed to all that.

Updated animal and jann versions.

Should we give the animal version a bonus on Survival checks when tracking by visual cues?  Otherwise, it will be a rather poor tracker.


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## Number 6 (Feb 23, 2011)

A bit off-topic... but what about the Zakharan horse breed from that island in the Crowded Sea?  I don't believe Al-Qadim has a Monstrous Compendium sheet on it, but would it be worth making an entry for that breed of horse?  They are supposed to be a bit better.


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## Number 6 (Feb 25, 2011)

Back on topic. 


Shade said:


> Should we give the animal version a bonus on Survival checks when tracking by visual cues?  Otherwise, it will be a rather poor tracker.



Is a +8 racial bonus about right?


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## Cleon (Feb 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed to all that.
> 
> Updated animal and jann versions.
> 
> Should we give the animal version a bonus on Survival checks when tracking by visual cues?  Otherwise, it will be a rather poor tracker.




I'd say no. Sight hounds are generally poor trackers. They mainly chase prey they can see. Just scent plus Track should be enough.

I would have no objection to giving the Jann version a bonus on Survival checks to track by visual cues, maybe make it an enhancement bonus due to their magical "tracking gaze".


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## Cleon (Feb 25, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> A bit off-topic... but what about the Zakharan horse breed from that island in the Crowded Sea?  I don't believe Al-Qadim has a Monstrous Compendium sheet on it, but would it be worth making an entry for that breed of horse?  They are supposed to be a bit better.




Do these horses have any unusual powers? If it's only a question of them having above average ability scores I don't think we need bother.


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## Number 6 (Feb 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Do these horses have any unusual powers? If it's only a question of them having above average ability scores I don't think we need bother.



They probably don't since they were not written up... but I recall something almost unnatural about them.  It might simply be from the mythical description of their origins.  I'll snoop some more, but I bet we don't need to do anything.

*UPDATE:*


			
				ALQ1 said:
			
		

> Jazirat al-Sayyad is the source of the magnificent Sayyad bloodline of horses. The breed is noted for its speed, grace, and fiery temperament. Sayyads are referred to as "sea-bred," for it is rumored that the island's mares are mated to magical stallions that rise out of the ocean foam. It is also said that only a true horseman can master a fullblooded Sayyad. Since there are more horse riders than true horsemen, Sayyads are normally sold on the mainland to sire other Zakharan horses. Half-, even quarter-Sayyads, retain much of the fire and fine qualities of their sires.



Yeah... the text refers to a myth.  It doesn't look like anything we need to get involved in.


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2011)

Back to the saluqi, shall we work on the "group overrun and stunning attack"?

Also, since they originally had 120 ft. infravision, should we give the magical beast version superior low-light vision (in addition to infallible tracking)?


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## Number 6 (Mar 1, 2011)

Could we use something similar to the Hyena's trip?

*Trip (Ex)*: A hyena that hits with its bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+2 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the hyena.


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## Number 6 (Mar 3, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> *Trip (Ex)*: A saluqi that hits with its bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+2 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the saluqi.



Alternatively, we can give the saluqi another bonus feat... either Improved Grapple or Improved Overrun.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> Could we use something similar to the Hyena's trip?
> 
> *Trip (Ex)*: A hyena that hits with its bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+2 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the hyena.






Number 6 said:


> Alternatively, we can give the saluqi another bonus feat... either Improved Grapple or Improved Overrun.




I'd actually like it to be a group effort.  Maybe some combination of pack tactics with trip?


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## Cleon (Mar 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Back to the saluqi, shall we work on the "group overrun and stunning attack"?
> 
> Also, since they originally had 120 ft. infravision, should we give the magical beast version superior low-light vision (in addition to infallible tracking)?




Superior low-light vision is a fine idea, but I'd like to give them high grade darkvision (120 ft.?) as well.


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## Cleon (Mar 7, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> Could we use something similar to the Hyena's trip?
> 
> *Trip (Ex)*: A hyena that hits with its bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+2 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the hyena.




Well it's a start.

I'm reluctant to give them standard Trip, since it doesn't give much to distinguish them from ordinary canines.

How can we tweak it to make it distinctive, and reflective of the original's mobbing attack.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2011)

I agree that it needs to be more unique and definitely require multiple of them.  Making it more like an overrun would probably help, too.

Could we somehow modify the selkie's boat overturning ability?


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## Number 6 (Mar 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> How can we tweak it to make it distinctive, and reflective of the original's mobbing attack.



It doesn't need to be Trip... I just grabbed the hyena text for a handy sample.  We could make the Saluqi Takedown require four saluqi for the attack on a Medium target (maybe two on a Small target).

Could the results could be an Overrun or an automatic Pin Grapple?  Give them the choice to take their target down and get in some bites or to knock 'em prone for their master to deal with.


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## freyar (Mar 8, 2011)

Here's a thought.  What about modifying stampede?


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Stampede (Ex): A frightened herd of bison flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of Large size or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d12 points of damage for each five bison in the herd (Reflex DC 18 half ). The save DC is Strength-based




That actually reads a lot like the original text.  I'm not sure of a good name, but it could be something like

"Overbear" (Ex): A pack of four or more saluqi can literally run over any creature of Medium (?) size or smaller in their path.  Each overborn creature must make a DC X Ref/Fort? save or be knocked prone.  Prone creatures overborn by a pack of saluqi take XdX damage from the dogs' bites (DC X Ref save for half).  The save DC is Str-based.

I dropped the bit about ruining all casting and will just go with the Concentration check rules.


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## Cleon (Mar 8, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> It doesn't need to be Trip... I just grabbed the hyena text for a handy sample.  We could make the Saluqi Takedown require four saluqi for the attack on a Medium target (maybe two on a Small target).
> 
> Could the results could be an Overrun or an automatic Pin Grapple?  Give them the choice to take their target down and get in some bites or to knock 'em prone for their master to deal with.




Yes, something similar to an Overrun + Pin was what I was thinking off. Care to rough out a writeup?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Here's a thought.  What about modifying stampede?
> 
> 
> That actually reads a lot like the original text.  I'm not sure of a good name, but it could be something like
> ...




I like this!


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## Number 6 (Mar 11, 2011)

Let's let the saluqi trample/stampede _and_ a combo of overrun/pin. 


Cleon said:


> Yes, something similar to an Overrun + Pin was what I was thinking off. Care to rough out a writeup?



We could let the pack of saluqi Overrun or Grapple/Pin as one creature...

*Pack Overrun (Ex)*: A pack of four saluqi may attempt to overrun as one Large sized creature.  The pack overrun prevents a Medium-sized or smaller opponent from avoiding the overrun.  In addition, if the pack successfully overruns its opponent the pack may immediately end its movement in the opponent's square and pin the opponent.  Pinning in subsequent rounds still requires successful opposed grapple checks.


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## Cleon (Mar 12, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> Let's let the saluqi trample/stampede _and_ a combo of overrun/pin.
> 
> We could let the pack of saluqi Overrun or Grapple/Pin as one creature...
> 
> *Pack Overrun (Ex)*: A pack of four saluqi may attempt to overrun as one Large sized creature.  The pack overrun prevents a Medium-sized or smaller opponent from avoiding the overrun.  In addition, if the pack successfully overruns its opponent the pack may immediately end its movement in the opponent's square and pin the opponent.  Pinning in subsequent rounds still requires successful opposed grapple checks.




That looks a decent start.

I think we'd better give more numerous Saluqi a better chance of Overrunning. Maybe instead of the standard +4 for a Large creature, it gets +1 per Saluqi with a maximum number equal to whoever many saluqi can surround the target (e.g. max +8 for a Small or Medium target, +12 for a Large target, +16 for a Huge target, +20 for a Gargantuan target and +28 for a Colossal target).

We could simplify it to +24 for a Colossal target or just cap it at a Huge target, since if we make the pack equivalent to a Large creature it can't overrun a Gargantuan+ target.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That looks a decent start.
> 
> I think we'd better give more numerous Saluqi a better chance of Overrunning. Maybe instead of the standard +4 for a Large creature, it gets +1 per Saluqi with a maximum number equal to whoever many saluqi can surround the target (e.g. max +8 for a Small or Medium target, +12 for a Large target, +16 for a Huge target, +20 for a Gargantuan target and +28 for a Colossal target).
> 
> We could simplify it to +24 for a Colossal target or just cap it at a Huge target, since if we make the pack equivalent to a Large creature it can't overrun a Gargantuan+ target.




I like this, and agree to capping it at Huge.


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## Number 6 (Mar 14, 2011)

[O Brother Whereart Thou] I'm with you fellers. [/O Brother Whereart Thou]


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## Cleon (Mar 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> I like this, and agree to capping it at Huge.




Fine by me.


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## freyar (Mar 16, 2011)

This is all good, with a couple of notes.

Overrunning usually requires a Str check.  What Str should the pack have?

I'd rather not drop the damage from the saluqi's bites, which is in the original monster writeup.  

We should probably mention that this doesn't provoke an AoO.


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## Number 6 (Mar 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Overrunning usually requires a Str check.  What Str should the pack have?



We have the saluqi listed as having a Str of 14... the pack doesn't need a different rating since they get a bonus to the check for each saluqi participating in the Overrun.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2011)

Well, I guess I still prefer the stampede-based mechanic, but I can go with this with some clarifications.  Here's what we have, I think.

Pack Overrun (Ex): A pack of four or more saluqi may use the overrun attack as a single. The pack overrun prevents a Medium-sized or smaller opponent from avoiding the overrun and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. In addition, if the pack successfully overruns its opponent the pack may immediately end its movement in the opponent's square and pin the opponent. Pinning in subsequent rounds still requires successful opposed grapple checks.

For the overrun attempt and subsequent grapple checks, treat the saluqi pack as a single Large creature with strength equal to that of the strongest saluqi in the pack.  The saluqis' overrun and grapple checks also receive a bonus equal to the number of saluqi in the pack surrounding their target (that is, up to +8 for targets up to Medium, +12 for Large targets, and +16 for Huge targets).  Furthermore, any adjacent saluqi can choose to deal damage with their bite attacks during the grapple.


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## Number 6 (Mar 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, I guess I still prefer the stampede-based mechanic...



Why not use both?  Allow a pack of saluqi to stampede using the existing stampede rules as well as this pack overrun.


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2011)

Well, they were both trying to emulate the same thing, so I don't think we really need both.


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## Cleon (Mar 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, I guess I still prefer the stampede-based mechanic, but I can go with this with some clarifications.  Here's what we have, I think.
> 
> Pack Overrun (Ex): A pack of four or more saluqi may use the overrun attack as a single. The pack overrun prevents a Medium-sized or smaller opponent from avoiding the overrun and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. In addition, if the pack successfully overruns its opponent the pack may immediately end its movement in the opponent's square and pin the opponent. Pinning in subsequent rounds still requires successful opposed grapple checks.
> 
> For the overrun attempt and subsequent grapple checks, treat the saluqi pack as a single Large creature with strength equal to that of the strongest saluqi in the pack.  The saluqis' overrun and grapple checks also receive a bonus equal to the number of saluqi in the pack surrounding their target (that is, up to +8 for targets up to Medium, +12 for Large targets, and +16 for Huge targets).  Furthermore, any adjacent saluqi can choose to deal damage with their bite attacks during the grapple.




Looks good, but do we need to mention its Overrun is capped at Huge? I guess we don't strictly speaking need to, since it says the pack's treated as a single Large creature, but I'd rather have it explicit.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2011)

Like this?

Pack Overrun (Ex): A pack of four or more saluqi may use the overrun attack. The pack overrun prevents a Medium-sized or smaller opponent from avoiding the overrun and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. In addition, if the pack successfully overruns its opponent the pack may immediately end its movement in the opponent's square and pin the opponent. Pinning in subsequent rounds still requires successful opposed grapple checks.

For the overrun attempt and subsequent grapple checks, treat the saluqi pack as a single Large creature with strength equal to that of the strongest saluqi in the pack (so that the pack cannot overrun creatures larger than Huge). The saluqis' overrun and grapple checks also receive a bonus equal to the number of saluqi in the pack surrounding their target (that is, up to +8 for targets up to Medium, +12 for Large targets, and +16 for Huge targets). Furthermore, any adjacent saluqi can choose to deal damage with their bite attacks during the grapple.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2011)

Fantastic!

Assuming everyone else is satisfied, we can work this into the gnashers as well.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2011)

Yes, let's go ahead with that.


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## Number 6 (Mar 23, 2011)

Looks just fine!


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2011)

Updated.

This was for the jann saluqi only, right?


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## Number 6 (Mar 24, 2011)

It should work fine for both the Animal version and the janni version.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> It should work fine for both the Animal version and the janni version.



Right.  The jann get darkvision, infallible tracking, Int, and an extra HD.


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## Cleon (Mar 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> This was for the jann saluqi only, right?




I think the pack overrun was for both varieties.

Reading it, "so that the pack cannot overrun creatures  larger than Huge" strikes me as a little ungainly in its wording, I'd prefer "thus the pack cannot overrun creatures  larger than Huge".

Also, I'm not so sure about the "Furthermore, any adjacent saluqi can  choose to deal damage with their bite attacks during the grapple". Should it be in the first paragraph after the bit about pinning? I was thinking something like "Furthermore, if the pack pins the opponent, any saluqi  participating in the grapple can make a bite attack against the overrun  opponent."

*Pack Overrun (Ex):* A pack of four or more saluqi may use the overrun  attack. The pack overrun prevents a Medium-sized or smaller opponent  from avoiding the overrun and does not provoke an attack of opportunity.  In addition, if the pack successfully overruns its opponent the pack  may immediately end its movement in the opponent's square and pin the  opponent. Pinning in subsequent rounds still requires successful opposed  grapple checks. Furthermore, if the pack pins the opponent, any saluqi  participating in the grapple can make a bite attack against the overrun  opponent.

For the overrun attempt and subsequent grapple checks, treat the saluqi  pack as a single Large creature with strength equal to that of the  strongest saluqi in the pack (thus the pack cannot overrun creatures  larger than Huge). The saluqis' overrun and grapple checks also receive a  bonus equal to the number of saluqi in the pack surrounding their  target (that is, up to +8 for targets up to Medium, +12 for Large  targets, and +16 for Huge targets).


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2011)

I'm ok with those changes, but then you need to move them to the gnashers also.


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## Cleon (Mar 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm ok with those changes, but then you need to move them to the gnashers also.




Well it's not like (C)opy and (P)aste requires _that_ much effort.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2011)

Updated standard and jann varieties.


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## Cleon (Apr 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated standard and jann varieties.




You know, there's nothing in the original stats that suggests they drag down Huge opponents. Indeed it says "Saluqi greyhounds hunt small game and are good at flushing antelope or other grazing animals from cover".

Maybe we should reduce the size steps so they can overrun creatures up to Large size? Antelopes go up to large size for the biggest species, such as the *Eland*.

e.g.:

*Pack Overrun (Ex):* A pack of four or more saluqi may use the  overrun  attack. The pack overrun prevents a Medium-sized or smaller  opponent  from avoiding the overrun and does not provoke an attack of  opportunity.  In addition, if the pack successfully overruns its  opponent the pack  may immediately end its movement in the opponent's  square and pin the  opponent. Pinning in subsequent rounds still  requires successful opposed  grapple checks. Furthermore, if the pack  pins the opponent, any saluqi  participating in the grapple can make a  bite attack against the overrun  opponent.

For the overrun attempt and subsequent grapple checks, treat the saluqi   pack as a single *Medium* creature with strength equal to that of the   strongest saluqi in the pack (thus the pack cannot overrun creatures   larger than *Large*). The saluqis' overrun and grapple checks also receive a   bonus equal to the number of saluqi in the pack surrounding their   target (that is, up to +8 for targets up to Medium, +12 for Large   targets, and +16 for Huge targets).


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2011)

I've no objections.  Freyar?


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## Cleon (Apr 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> I've no objections.  Freyar?




I don't mind waiting.


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## freyar (Apr 11, 2011)

This is fine with me!


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2011)

Updated standard and jann varieties.

Environment: Warm deserts and plains?

For the jann saluqi:

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x


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## Number 6 (Apr 13, 2011)

CR 1?
Advancement 2 to 4 HD?  Or 2 to 6 HD?


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## Cleon (Apr 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated standard and jann varieties.
> 
> Environment: Warm deserts and plains?
> 
> ...




Challenge Rating 1? A jann saluqi is a _bit_ tougher than the SRD Wolf, but a good deal weaker than a Worg.

*Advancement:* 3 HD (Small); 4-6 HD (Medium) ?

For the "standard saluqi" I'd make them CR 1/2 since they're tougher than a standard Dog.

I'm also tempted to change the Advancement to 2 HD (Medium).

There doesn't seem to be much variation in the size of a purebred saluqi, but the biggest males can be 50-65 pounds, which is within Medium.

Besides, doesn't the Al-Qadim entry say that jann saluqi  sometimes breed with ordinary dogs, the resulting animals being mundane but superior hunting hounds? A 2 HD standard saluqi might have jann saluqi in its ancestry.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2011)

Updated saluqi.

Shall we work on the desert hounds variant of the jann saluqi now?



> Jungle Hound
> It is said that a related breed of hound has been created by jungle dwellers. These hounds use similar tactics, but are much better at tracking by smell than by sight – so much so that they can follow a trail up to a week old. They are smaller than the saluqi hounds, with orange and yellow patches of fur dappling their dark coats instead of gray.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated saluqi.





The jann saluqi still needs skills.

I'd put the extra skill rank in Survival, and give them a racial bonus to Survival checks when following tracks by sight. Maybe +8, since it's supernatural? If their eyesight's supernaturally keen they probably have a racial bonus to Spot as well:
* Skills:* Jump +12, Listen +5, Spot +9, Survival +2*

*Skills:* Saluqis have a +4 racial bonus on Jump and Spot checks.

*A jann saluqi has a +8 racial bonus on Survival checks when following tracks by sight. ​


Shade said:


> Shall we work on the desert hounds variant of the jann saluqi now?




Apart from the differences in appearance, I'd give them a racial bonus to Survival checks when following tracks by scent:
* Skills:* Jump +12, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +2*

*Skills:* Saluqis have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.

*A jungle hound has a +8 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.​What do you think?


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2011)

Looks fine from here.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Updated.

For the jungle hounds, should infallible tracking be modified for scent in addition to (or instead of) sight?


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## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks fine from here.




Better wait for some Shade then.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Better wait for some Shade then.




See 2 posts up.


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## Cleon (Apr 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> For the jungle hounds, should infallible tracking be modified for scent in addition to (or instead of) sight?




I was thinking of just leaving it as is, but I don't mind changing it.

How's this:

*Infallible Tracking (Su):* A jungle hound has a supernatural sense of smell that  allows it to infallibly follow a scent trail up to 7 days old, provided  the surface the trail crosses is not fluid (i.e. the saluqi can not use  infallible tracking if the creature flies away or enters water).  Anti-divination spells such as nondetection are effective against  infallible tracking.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2011)

7 days is superlong compared to the 30 minutes we gave the jann saluqi to track by sight.  Normally, the DC for tracking by scent goes up by 2 per hour as opposed to 1 per day for tracking by sight.  If anything, I'd reverse the numbers!  

How about 7 days for the normal jann saluqi and 4 hours for the jungle version?


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> 7 days is superlong compared to the 30 minutes we gave the jann saluqi to track by sight.  Normally, the DC for tracking by scent goes up by 2 per hour as opposed to 1 per day for tracking by sight.  If anything, I'd reverse the numbers!
> 
> How about 7 days for the normal jann saluqi and 4 hours for the jungle version?




I'd rather just give them both 30 minutes of Infallible Tracking. That was my first thought, and on reflection I feel it works better.

Although I would rather the jungle hound's scent tracking can work for days rather than hours, since the original text says it can track week-old scents.

Revising...

*Infallible Tracking (Su):* A jungle hound has a supernatural sense of smell that  allows it to infallibly follow a scent trail up to 30 minutes old, provided  the surface the trail crosses is not fluid (i.e. the  saluqi can not use  infallible tracking if the creature flies away or  enters water). If the trail is older than 30 minutes, the jungle hound must make Wisdom checks to follow the trail as per the scent special ability, except the DC to follow a cold scent trail increases at +1 per 24 hours instead of the normal +2 per hour. Anti-divination spells such as nondetection are  effective against  infallible tracking.


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2011)

If we're going to do that, I want to say that the sight-tracking jann saluqi have +0 DC per day later.  These special abilities should make sense in the context of the general rules.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> If we're going to do that, I want to say that the sight-tracking jann saluqi have +0 DC per day later.  These special abilities should make sense in the context of the general rules.




Good idea.


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2011)

Ok, stick that into the homebrews, and I'll be happy.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2011)

Like so?

Infallible Tracking (Su): A jann saluqi has supernatural eyesight that allows it to view recent trails as a glowing set of tracks. This allows the saluqi to infallibly follow any trail up to 30 minutes old, provided the surface the trail crosses is not fluid (i.e. the saluqi can not use infallible tracking if the creature flies away or enters water). If the trail is older than 30 minutes, the jann saluqi must make Survival checks as normal for tracking, except the DC to follow a cold trail increases at +0 per 24 hours instead of the normal +1 every 24 hours since the trail was made. Anti-divination spells such as nondetection are effective against infallible tracking.


Infallible Tracking (Su): A jungle hound has a supernatural sense of smell that allows it to infallibly follow a scent trail up to 30 minutes old, provided the surface the trail crosses is not fluid (i.e. the saluqi can not use infallible tracking if the creature flies away or enters water). If the trail is older than 30 minutes, the jungle hound must make Wisdom checks to follow the trail as per the scent special ability, except the DC to follow a cold scent trail increases at +1 per 24 hours instead of the normal +2 per hour. Anti-divination spells such as nondetection are effective against infallible tracking.


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## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> If we're going to do that, I want to say that the sight-tracking jann saluqi have +0 DC per day later.  These special abilities should make sense in the context of the general rules.




That doesn't seem a very good idea, a +0 DC means the saluqi gets no penalty no matter how old the trail is.

I'd rather keep the sight-tracker with the default Tracking bonus of +1 per 24 hours, as per the standard rules, and only make a special case for the scent-tracker.

If you really want to make a special case for the jann saluqi's Tracking DCs as well, surely it'd be better to increase the time period - e.g. +1 per 48 hours instead of 24.


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2011)

EDIT: I see it will be hard to please both me and Cleon.  What if we just cut all the penalties in half?  +1 per 48 hours for sight, +1 per hour on scent?  That's consistent for both of them.  I just feel like otherwise we're boosting the scent too much.


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> EDIT: I see it will be hard to please both me and Cleon.  What if we just cut all the penalties in half?  +1 per 48 hours for sight, +1 per hour on scent?  That's consistent for both of them.  I just feel like otherwise we're boosting the scent too much.




I find that agreeable.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> EDIT: I see it will be hard to please both me and Cleon.  What if we just cut all the penalties in half?  +1 per 48 hours for sight, +1 per hour on scent?  That's consistent for both of them.  I just feel like otherwise we're boosting the scent too much.




But then the jungle hound wouldn't be able to track week-old scents, which their AD&D description explicitly says the can.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> But then the jungle hound wouldn't be able to track week-old scents, which their AD&D description explicitly says the can.



I can't say I know the AD&D rules for tracking, but they seem like they must be very different than the 3e ones, assuming they were even codified.  I just don't think we should break the general tracking rules to pieces for this.

Put it another way: there's nothing in the original monster write up to suggest that the jungle hounds should get so much bigger of a boost than the usual jann saluqi.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> Put it another way: there's nothing in the original monster write up to suggest that the jungle hounds should get so much bigger of a boost than the usual jann saluqi.




That says it best.  Agreed!


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

Ok, then, anything else left?


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## Cleon (Apr 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> I can't say I know the AD&D rules for tracking, but they seem like they must be very different than the 3e ones, assuming they were even codified.  I just don't think we should break the general tracking rules to pieces for this.




Best I can recall, the ranger class had rules for tracking sign, but their were no codified rules for scent-tracking animals so the DM would have just made something up.



Shade said:


> That says it best.  Agreed!




Disagreed! Rules are there to be bent at the DM's whim, don't you know. It's just a question of showing them who's boss, like Humpty Dumpty's approach to lexicography.

I have a feeling I'm not swaying you... 

So are you two sticking to  +1 per 48 hours for sight, +1 per hour on scent? If you're dead set against week-long scent tracking I suppose you'd better stick in whatever duration penalty you want and move on, or we'll never leave this topic.

It's not like I'm not going to change the SQ for my version, after all.


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## freyar (Apr 27, 2011)

Well, I'm just dead set on not boosting the scent version more than the sight version.   DMs can bend rules on a whim, but I don't think designers should.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

So...how should that writeup look?


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2011)

Shade said:


> So...how should that writeup look?



I'd just use these:

Infallible Tracking (Su): A jann saluqi has supernatural eyesight that allows it to view recent trails as a glowing set of tracks. This allows the saluqi to infallibly follow any trail up to 30 minutes old, provided the surface the trail crosses is not fluid (i.e. the saluqi can not use infallible tracking if the creature flies away or enters water). If the trail is older than 30 minutes, the jann saluqi must make Survival checks as normal for tracking, except the DC to follow a cold trail increases at +1 per 48 hours instead of the normal +1 every 24 hours since the trail was made. Anti-divination spells such as nondetection are effective against infallible tracking.


Infallible Tracking (Su): A jungle hound has a supernatural sense of smell that allows it to infallibly follow a scent trail up to 30 minutes old, provided the surface the trail crosses is not fluid (i.e. the saluqi can not use infallible tracking if the creature flies away or enters water). If the trail is older than 30 minutes, the jungle hound must make Wisdom checks to follow the trail as per the scent special ability, except the DC to follow a cold scent trail increases at +1 per hour instead of the normal +2 per hour. Anti-divination spells such as nondetection are effective against infallible tracking.


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## Cleon (May 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd just use these:
> 
> Infallible Tracking (Su): A jann saluqi has supernatural eyesight that allows it to view recent trails as a glowing set of tracks. This allows the saluqi to infallibly follow any trail up to 30 minutes old, provided the surface the trail crosses is not fluid (i.e. the saluqi can not use infallible tracking if the creature flies away or enters water). If the trail is older than 30 minutes, the jann saluqi must make Survival checks as normal for tracking, except the DC to follow a cold trail increases at +1 per 48 hours instead of the normal +1 every 24 hours since the trail was made. Anti-divination spells such as nondetection are effective against infallible tracking.
> 
> ...




Oh go on then, see if I care.


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## freyar (May 2, 2011)




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## Shade (May 5, 2011)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (May 5, 2011)

All done.


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## Shade (May 12, 2011)

*Addazahr*
Climate/Terrain: Tropical, subtropical, and temperate/Desert, hills, plains 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Swarm 
Activity Cycle: Day 
Diet: Omnivore 
Intelligence: Animal (1) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 6-60 
Armor Class: 4 
Movement: 6, Fl 18 (B) 
Hit Dice: 1 hp 
THAC0: 20 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1 + disease 
Special Attacks: Disease 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: T (2” long) 
Morale: Unsteady (6) 
XP Value: 15 

Addazahr, or backbiters, are small, slender, winged insects about two inches in length. They dwell in deserts, plains, and hills. Their pale amber color and extreme elongation make them resemble nothing so much as a piece of hay or straw. Addazahr wings are so fragile it is almost impossible to see them when the insects are in flight.

Combat: Addazahr do not engage in combat per se. They are nonaggressive, seeking only to gain sustenance in the form of blood from warm-blooded creatures.

Their bite causes only one point of damage, but it injects a small amount of their saliva into the bloodstream of their victims. This saliva works as a disease, causing soreness and swelling of the joints in humans and animals other than beasts of burden (a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation negates this effect).

Those animals which are primarily used as mounts or to bear burdens, such as camel and horses, are affected more seriously, though usually not fatally. In such cases, the saliva attacks the muscles of the animal’s back, causing weakness and severe pain. The animal so affected cannot carry burdens or be induced to move far.

The disease in either humans or animals can be cured by a cure disease spell. Otherwise, those affected return to normal in approximately two weeks. A few of the desert tribes claim to know of a nonmagical remedy which is effective within three days, but reports of this are unsubstantiated. Caravans attract the addazahr, and their depredations can cause loss of time while camels recover, loss of money due to late arrivals at market, or even loss of life in cases where the caravan becomes stranded far from a water source. Because of their physical forms and the effect their bite produces, this bane of merchants is sometimes jokingly referred to as thestraw that broke the camel’s back.

Almost any sort of attack will kill addazahr. They are susceptible to both normal and magical cold or fire, and any hit upon them will destroy them. Water and other liquids do them no particular harm, unless they are completely immersed in the liquid and restrained from flying or crawling out of it, in which case they will drown like any other air-breathing creature.

Habitat/Society: Addazahr move about almost constantly, seeking out food. They are most commonly encountered in arid, seasonal grasslands in deserts. Though they are omnivores, they need to feed on the blood of warm-blooded creatures in order to reproduce. Females that have fed on blood enter a cycle and produce eggs within 72 hours. The eggs (which are too small to be easily seen by the unaided human or demihuman eye) are laid in whatever terrain the insects are currently passing through. They hatch in a month. If there are no plants or animals nearby upon which the young can feed when they hatch, they die. Even if they take in blood as their chief sustenance, the young insects cannot reproduce until they are three months old. These are the chief regulating factors of their existence, keeping the fast-breeding insects within reasonable bounds. They can live to be up to a year old.

Addazahr have no permanent lair and hoard no treasure.

Ecology: Addazahr are parasites. Their role is that of a scavenger and occasional accidental pollinator. They can feed on carrion, though they cannot use any blood gained thereby to reproduce, and they often break down small seed casings for food. Their wings, though fragile, act as collectors of pollen, and they may transport pollen from one plant to another.

If their eggs can be located, they can be gathered and carried without harm to them. When they hatch, they can be kept in glass or pottery jars so long as they have air and food.

Originally appeared in Corsairs of the Great Sea (1994).  This is the MCA2 version.


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## Number 6 (May 12, 2011)

I've always considered the Addazahr ineffective monsters.  If anyone agrees perhaps we should make them either a Hazzard.  As they are parasites, they might work as a Disease.

Any thoughts?


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## Shade (May 12, 2011)

I was thinking a swarm.


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## freyar (May 12, 2011)

A Fine Vermin swarm would work for me.  Maybe not do much (or any) swarm damage, but definitely the swarm damage should include a disease.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Looks OK.

 I wondered whether the Jungle Hound's infallible tracking should have "(i.e. the *saluqi *can not use infallible tracking if the creature flies away or enters water), but it is a saluqi breed so we don't need to change it to "jungle hound".

I declare them done!


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## Cleon (May 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> A Fine Vermin swarm would work for me.  Maybe not do much (or any) swarm damage, but definitely the swarm damage should include a disease.




Yes, that seems the best approach.

Maybe base it on the SRD Spider Swarm?


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## Cleon (May 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Addazahr*
> 
> Originally appeared in Corsairs of the Great Sea (1994).  This is the MCA2 version.




I've just checked the Corsairs version and there are a couple of minor, but I think interesting, changes.

Firstly, the saliva is called a "crippling agent" rather than a "disease" in its first instance. Is it worth considering making it a Str poison?



			
				Corsairs of the Great Sea said:
			
		

> Their bite causes only one point of damage, but it injects a small amount of their saliva into the bloodstream of their victims. This saliva works as a crippling agent, causing soreness and swelling of the joints in humans and animals other than beasts of burden (a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation will negate this effect).




Secondly, the original version were transexual!



			
				Corsairs of the Great Sea said:
			
		

> Those which have fed on blood enter a female cycle and produce eggs within 72 hours




How about keeping the sex-changing bit? We don't have to worry about the Moral Majority like TSR did...


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## freyar (May 17, 2011)

The real question is whether poison or disease is more fun!   Red ache could work if we want a disease, and that's not super-common.  Or, heck, we could do 2 varieties (just put an underbar).

As for the reproductive cycle, sure, let's keep it.  But I think it's really just flavor.


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## Shade (May 18, 2011)

Agreed on the gender issues, and I'm fine with either poison, disease, or some combination of both.


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## Cleon (May 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed on the gender issues, and I'm fine with either poison, disease, or some combination of both.




Well can we agree that, whichever it is, the affliction attacks Strength?


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## Shade (May 19, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well can we agree that, whichever it is, the affliction attacks Strength?




Absolutely!


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## Cleon (May 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> Absolutely!




Care to rough something out for me to criticize mercilessly?


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## Cleon (May 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> Absolutely!




Oh, and I'm currently leaning towards the "something between poison and disease" approach.


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## freyar (May 24, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Oh, and I'm currently leaning towards the "something between poison and disease" approach.



How about a disease with super-quick incubation period?

Failing that, I think I'd rather do two versions.

Or, what the heck, how about a poison that does a small amount of Str damage with a symbol-of-pain-type effect and also a Str damage disease (like red ache)?  Double whammy on the bite.


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## Shade (May 24, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Care to rough something out for me to criticize mercilessly?




I'll pass the buck to this guy...  



freyar said:


> How about a disease with super-quick incubation period?
> 
> Failing that, I think I'd rather do two versions.
> 
> Or, what the heck, how about a poison that does a small amount of Str damage with a symbol-of-pain-type effect and also a Str damage disease (like red ache)?  Double whammy on the bite.


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## freyar (May 26, 2011)

Somebody remind me about where we put a symbol of pain effect in a poison, and I'll write that up.

As for the disease, 

Disease (Ex): red ache -- swarm, Fortitude DC X, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d6 Str.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (May 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> Somebody remind me about where we put a symbol of pain effect in a poison, and I'll write that up.




You mean like the Scorpionfish?

*Poison (Ex):* Injury (spines), Fortitude DC 11; initial damage agonizing pain equal to a symbol of pain (-4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks) for 2d6 minutes; secondary damage agonizing pain for 1d4 hours plus 1d4 Con damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Or maybe the Giant Euryothe "Fire Worm"...

_Agonizing Venom: _DC 15 Fortitude negates, initial damage wracking pains (imposing a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks for a duration of 1d6×10 minutes), secondary damage 1d6 Dexterity. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.


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## Shade (May 31, 2011)

That's the one (or two).  

It looks like we've got the effect, and just need to decide upon a duration.


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> That's the one (or two).
> 
> It looks like we've got the effect, and just need to decide upon a duration.




The original infliction lasted an average of 2 weeks, which suggests something like 3d8 days!


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2011)

Cleon said:


> The original infliction lasted an average of 2 weeks, which suggests something like 3d8 days!




Hmm...that does sound more appropriate for a disease than a poison.


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> Hmm...that does sound more appropriate for a disease than a poison.




I don't mind changing it.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2011)

Changing in which way?

The thing is, I think that pain effect is probably too strong to last for days.  But I'm not too invested in it.  I was really just looking at poison plus disease to get out of our confusion back there.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Changing in which way?




I suppose make it a disease that causes pain until it is cured. If it uses the standard "two successive Fort saves" method of natural healing it'll last at least 2 days without supernatural cures.



freyar said:


> The thing is, I think that pain effect is probably too strong to last for days.  But I'm not too invested in it.  I was really just looking at poison plus disease to get out of our confusion back there.




Well if it irks you we could reduce the penalty, I suppose. Maybe the full -4 for an initial effect that lasts a few minutes, then a -2 or -1 penalty for some lingering damage.


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well if it irks you we could reduce the penalty, I suppose. Maybe the full -4 for an initial effect that lasts a few minutes, then a -2 or -1 penalty for some lingering damage.




I like this approach.  -1 is probably sufficiently debilitating.


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> I like this approach.  -1 is probably sufficiently debilitating.




That works for me.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2011)

Ok, so are we getting rid of the poison and then going with a disease that does Str or Dex damage and lingering pain (-1 penalty)?  I'm not quite clear on what we're doing.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, so are we getting rid of the poison and then going with a disease that does Str or Dex damage and lingering pain (-1 penalty)?  I'm not quite clear on what we're doing.




Well I'd rather use a poison approach, say with pain (-4) for X minutes as an initial effect, then pain (-2) for X hours plus pain (-1) for Z days for secondary effect.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2011)

Ok, like this?

Agonizing Venom: DC X Fortitude negates, initial damage wracking pains (imposing a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks) for X minutes, secondary damage pain inducing a -2 penalty as above for X hours and pain inducing a -1 penalty as above for X days subsequently. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, like this?
> 
> Agonizing Venom: DC X Fortitude negates, initial damage wracking pains (imposing a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks) for X minutes, secondary damage pain inducing a -2 penalty as above for X hours and pain inducing a -1 penalty as above for X days subsequently. The save DC is Constitution-based.




Yes, that's pretty much what I was thinking. Maybe expand it to two durations for both, something like this:
*
Agonizing Venom:* DC X Fortitude negates, initial damage agonizing pain  (imposing a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks)  for 1d3 minutes followed by wracking pain (inducing -2 penalty as above) for 2d6 minutes, secondary damage wracking pain (-2 penalty) for 1d3 hours followed by lingering pain (-1 penalty) for 2d6 days. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2011)

So you get some wracking pain if you fail the second save?  I guess that works.  Sure.


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> So you get some wracking pain if you fail the second save?  I guess that works.  Sure.




Good! Are the durations OK, or are there any tweaks you'd like?


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

Let's just call it "poison", since it essentially is just that.  Otherwise, we'll have to add text indicating that it is treated as poison for purposes of immunities, spells, and so forth.

I used the spider swarm as the basis as suggested upthread.  Should we retain the climb speed?   What about the tremorsense?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2011)

I think the climb speed is ok, but I'd drop tremorsense.  I'd also probably decrease the swam damage a little.  Centipedes and locusts do 2d6 and are considerably higher in HD, and these seemed kind of weak in terms of damage anyway.  1d4 plus poison?


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think the climb speed is ok, but I'd drop tremorsense.  I'd also probably decrease the swam damage a little.  Centipedes and locusts do 2d6 and are considerably higher in HD, and these seemed kind of weak in terms of damage anyway.  1d4 plus poison?




Sure!  It's the poison that really defines them, anyway.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Let's just call it "poison", since it essentially is just that.  Otherwise, we'll have to add text indicating that it is treated as poison for purposes of immunities, spells, and so forth.




But the original is specifically cured by _cure disease_. It also repeatedly calls it a "disease" but give I'd like to add that to the effects, e.g.:

*Poison (Ex):* An addazahr's bite inject saliva that causes disease-like symptoms. Addazahr poison can be treated by effects that cure disease (such as _remove poison_) as well as remedies that treat poison.

_Addazahr Ache:_ DC 11 Fortitude negates, initial damage agonizing pain  (imposing a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks)  for 1d3 minutes followed by wracking pain (inducing -2 penalty as  above) for 2d6 minutes, secondary damage wracking pain (-2 penalty) for  1d3 hours followed by lingering pain (-1 penalty) for 2d6 days.  The save  DC is Constitution-based. 



Shade said:


> I used the spider swarm as the basis as suggested upthread.  Should we retain the climb speed?   What about the tremorsense?




Cut the tremorsense. I don't mind either way on the Climb speed.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2011)

Those darn exception based mechanics!

Just to make a decision, let's just keep the climb speed.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2011)

Now that you changed the mechanics, we can go back to calling it "agonizing venom"!

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2011)

Heh.  All done?


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Now that you changed the mechanics, we can go back to calling it "agonizing venom"!
> 
> Updated.




Works for me!

They look almost done.

I'd like to change the "Addazahr are omnivorous, feeding on blood for reproduction" to "Addazahr are omnivorous, but need to feed on blood for reproduction".

While we're on that subject, perhaps we should add a very weak Blood Drain special attack (something like 1 Con per round or even 1 Con per minute), with a note that they normally only drain a few points of Con - just enough to nourish their eggs?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

I'm not opposed to adding a weak blood drain.  Any objections, freyar?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2011)

Just add 1 Con to the swarm damage?  I could almost see doing 1 Con instead of the 1d4 hp swarm damage.  How about that?  swarm (1 Con plus agonizing venom)


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Just add 1 Con to the swarm damage?  I could almost see doing 1 Con instead of the 1d4 hp swarm damage.  How about that?  swarm (1 Con plus agonizing venom)




I like!


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Just add 1 Con to the swarm damage?  I could almost see doing 1 Con instead of the 1d4 hp swarm damage.  How about that?  swarm (1 Con plus agonizing venom)




Works for me, but I'd add a rider that they usually only attack for a few rounds before their bloodlust is sated.


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2011)

Just put that in tactics, right?


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Just put that in tactics, right?




I'd rather include it in a Blood Drain SA, like how a Stirge is sated after draining 4 Con:

*Blood Drain (Ex):* A stirge drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. Once it has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the stirge’s appetite has been sated, the stirge detaches and seeks a new target.
...

*Blood Drain (Ex):* Addaazahr drain blood, dealing 1 point of  Constitution damage to any living creature that begins its turn with an addazahr swarm in its space. Once a swarm has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it is sated and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the addazahr swarm's  appetites have been sated, the swarm seeks a new target.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> *Blood Drain (Ex):* Addaazahr drain blood, dealing 1 point of  Constitution damage to any living creature that begins its turn with an addazahr swarm in its space. Once a swarm has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it is sated and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the addazahr swarm's  appetites have been sated, the swarm seeks a new target.




I think I'm OK with this.  freyar?


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> I think I'm OK with this.  freyar?




I can wait.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2011)

It's fine, though it may be redundant.


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> It's fine, though it may be redundant.




Well shall we stick in that Blood Drain and proceed, then?


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2011)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Weren't we going to change the damage to blood drain only?

Also, should we change the blood drain to the "any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its [the swarm's] move" like is normal for swarm damage, rather than the "any living creature that begins its turn with an addazahr swarm in its space"?

e.g.*Attack/Full Attack:* Swarm (blood drain plus agonizing venom)

*Agonizing Venom (Ex):* An addazahr's bite injects saliva that causes  disease-like symptoms. Agonizing venom can be treated by effects that  cure disease (such as remove poison) as well as remedies that treat  poison.

_Addazahr Ache:_ Blood drain, DC 11 Fortitude  negates, initial damage agonizing pain (imposing a -4 penalty on attack  rolls, skill checks and ability checks) for 1d3 minutes followed by  wracking pain (inducing -2 penalty as above) for 2d6 minutes, secondary  damage wracking pain (-2 penalty) for 1d3 hours followed by lingering  pain (-1 penalty) for 2d6 days. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

*Blood Drain (Ex):* Addaazahr drain blood, the swarm deals 1 points of Con damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move. Once a swarm has dealt 4 points of Constitution  damage, it is sated and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies  before the addazahr swarm's appetites have been sated, the swarm seeks a  new target.​Oh, and swarms normally do d6s of damage, so if we stick to hit point damage + Con damage + poison, then shouldn't it be 1d6 damage rather than 1d4?


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2011)

I did think that we were dropping the hp swarm damage, so I agree with Cleon's edits there.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> I did think that we were dropping the hp swarm damage, so I agree with Cleon's edits there.




That's about it for them then. We'll need to adjust the tactics - remove the "a swarm deals 1d6 points of damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move" for a start.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2011)

And they should be done after that, agreed.


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> And they should be done after that, agreed.




So, it's just a question of waiting for Shade to polish them off and giving a final check to the stats.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2011)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




I think they're done.

Next!


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2011)

*Zakharan kraken*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any marine
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (18)
TREASURE: G, R, S (see text)
ALIGNMENT: Any evil
NO. APPEARING: (left blank)
ARMOR CLASS: -4/0/5
MOVEMENT: Sw 3, jet 21
HIT DICE: 25
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 9
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16 ( ×2), 2-12 ( ×6) and 5-30
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, constrict, ink
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells, jet
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: G (60’ long, 100' tentacles)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 25,000

Zakharan Kraken are and albino race of air- and water- breathing squid-like creatures that dwell in the dark depths of the ocean Once, they were smaller and lived in shallow coastal waters, where human worshippers served them and brought them sacrifices. Some upheaval in nature or possibly a battle with forces of good made the surviving monsters retreat to the depths. Although their number dwindled to a mere handful, the survivors grew huge and powerful. Kraken now seek to kill good creatures and to devour all life smaller than they. Kraken are aggressive hunters, able to battle even large sperm whales and win.

Combat: A kraken.s tentacles are Armor Class 5. The body is protected by a thick and durable shell and has an armor class of 0. The head is AC -4, and attackers attempting to strike it suffer a +2 initiative penalty that round (to get past the tentacles). Tentacle damage is painful to a kraken but not fatal, as it can regenerate lost tentacles in a matter of weeks. Swimming forward it moves at a slow rate of 3, but jetting backward it travels at a rate of 21.

A kraken attacks with two barb-covered tentacles, six other tentacles, and a huge beak. A kraken uses at least two  of its 10 tentacles to anchor and stabilize itself in combat. The barbed tentacles rake and draw prey to the beaked mouth. If the others hit, they wrap and constrict the prey, causing 2-12 point of damage on the second and each subsequent round. To escape, the tentacle must be severed (16 points of damage from a sharp weapon in a single blow). Each tentacle hit impairs the victim: roll 1d4. A character who is constricted may have one arm (1 = left or 2 = right), no arms (3), or both arms (4) pinned. 

If three or more of its tentacles are severed, the creature will immediately retreat. Its 80. × 80. × 120. ink cloud is poisonous for 2-5 rounds, until diluted by the sea water. Creatures exposed to the sepia ink suffer 1-6 points of damage per round (no saving throw). Meanwhile, the kraken jets backward to its lair. Kraken can create airy water in a sphere 130. across or a hemisphere 260’ across for one day. They can use the following powers at will: faerie fire for 8 hours, control temperature in a 400’ radius for one day, control winds once per day, weather summoning once per day, and animal (fish) summoning III three times per day.

Kraken often attack ships to drag them down. Larger than the largest squid, a kraken can drag vessels up to 60’ long under the waves. Larger ships are dragged to a halt in five rounds. If a kraken can grasp the ship with six or more tentacles for three consecutive rounds during an attack, the vessel suffers damage as if it had been rammed. It then takes on water, and within 2-8 rounds the ship will have lost enough buoyancy so that the kraken can easily drag it under.

Habitat/Society: Kraken are solitary creatures except during mating season, which coincides with the monsoons. At this time the kraken gather in the deepest trenches of the ocean, where they leave their eggs to hatch.

Some kraken maintain air-filled cavern complexes where they keep and breed human slaves to serve and feed them. The kraken stock these undersea dungeons by using wind and weather to bring vessels to the area. Such lairs have treasure type A in addition to the treasure indicated above. 

Ambitious kraken make pacts with sahuagin or ixitxachitl, agreeing not to destroy them in exchange for their servitude and tribute. These kraken use their servants to strike against shipping and coastal cities.

Ecology: Zakharan kraken prey on whales, giant squid and octopi, and occasionally young zaratan. They especially hate the aboleth, whom they consider unnatural upstarts. They have no natural enemies, though some legends say that rocs will eat young kraken basking near the surface of the ocean, and the marid hunt them for sport.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #198 (1993).

Here's the standard kraken for comparison...

*Kraken * 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Very deep oceans                                                   
FREQUENCY:Very rare                                                   
ORGANIZATION:  Solitary                                                   
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any                                                   
DIET: Carnivore                                                   
INTELLIGENCE: Genius+ (19-20+)                                                   
TREASURE:G, R, S (+A)                                                   
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil                                                   
NO. APPEARING: 1                                                   
ARMOR CLASS: 5/0                                                   
MOVEMENT: Sw 3, Jet 21                                                   
HIT DICE: 20                                                   
THAC0: 1                                                   
NO. OF ATTACKS: 9                                                   
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18(x2)/2-12(x6)/7-28
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below                                                   
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below                                                   
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil                                                   
SIZE: G (90'+ long)                                                   
MORALE: Fanatic (18)                                                   
XP VALUE: 14,000         

A kraken is a rare form of gargantuan squid. It is one of the most deadly monsters in existence.

Combat: Krakens attack as huge varieties of giant squid. Two of their tentacles are barbed and cause 3d6 points of damage when they hit. They then try to drag prey toward their gaping maws for a bite of 7d4 points of damage. The other six free tentacles inflict 2d6 points of damage when they hit and constrict for 3d6 points each round thereafter. A kraken's tentacle must suffer 18 points of damage from sharp or edged weapons to be severed (these hit points are in addition to those the kraken gets from its Hit Dice).

   If three of more of its tentacles have been severed, the monster is 80% likely to retreat, leaving behind a cloud of ink to discourage pursuit. The kraken is 50% likely to retreat to its den if four or more of its tentacles have victims. It leaves behind an ink cloud in this case also. The ink cloud of a kraken is 80 feet high by 80 feet wide by 120 feet long and is poisonous (it dissipates in 2-5 rounds). Those within the cloud receive 2d4 points of damage every round they remain. Krakens jet away to their lairs at a movement rate 21.

   Krakens can drag ships of 60 feet long down in the same way as normal giant squids attack. They have the innate power to cause airy water in a sphere 120 yards across or in a hemisphere 240 yards across (they can do this continuously). They can employ the following spell-like powers, one at a time, at will: faerie fire for up to eight hours, control temperature in a 40-yard radius continuously, control winds once per day, weather summoning once per day, and animal summoning III (fish only) three times per day (note that this spell does not grant control of the fish once summoned).

   Krakens are not affected by the conch horns of tritons.

Habitat/Society: Krakens have Intelligences of genius or higher and often control entire regions of the underwater world. Their lairs lie thousands of feet below the surface and they maintain huge complexes of caverns where they keep and breed human slaves to serve and feed them.

Ecology: Krakens can breathe either air or water and are aggressive hunters. Many tropical islands have been completely stripped of all inhabitants (animal and human) by krakens.

   It is said that krakens retreated to the depths when the forces of good thwarted their attempt to rule the seas, but it is also said that in the future krakens will rise again.


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## Number 6 (Jul 5, 2011)

(Apologies for the comment.)

_Release the Kraken!_


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> (Apologies for the comment.)
> 
> _Release the Kraken!_




No apologies necessary.


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2011)

Ok, so a little smaller than and not quite as smart as a standard kraken, right?  Slightly different SLAs, too.  I note that 3.X dropped the poison from kraken ink, but do we want to retain that to differentiate these a little more?


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, so a little smaller than and not quite as smart as a standard kraken, right?  Slightly different SLAs, too.  I note that 3.X dropped the poison from kraken ink, but do we want to retain that to differentiate these a little more?




Yeah, I think any differentiation is good.

The Zak version also has 5 more Hit Dice.


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I think any differentiation is good.
> 
> The Zak version also has 5 more Hit Dice.




It's also got a better AC on the head and it mentions they have a "thick and durable ", which I think merits a NA increase.


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2011)

By the way, the illustration in Dragon 198 is a weird _thing_ with a slightly humanoid torso and arms, a greatly oversized fish-like head, and the arms of an octopus below its waist.

It looks nothing like the "squid-like" creature described in the text, but it looks like it would make a good monster of its own.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2011)

Ok, summarizing:

25HD, still Gargantuan but a bit smaller, extra NA (say +4 at least?), poison ink, slightly lower mental stats, and maybe an additional or different SLA or two.  Any changes to physical stats?


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, summarizing:
> 
> 25HD, still Gargantuan but a bit smaller, extra NA (say +4 at least?), poison ink, slightly lower mental stats, and maybe an additional or different SLA or two.  Any changes to physical stats?




I'm not sure about it being smaller. The description says they've grown "huge and powerful" and they do have 25% more HD.

Besides, we don't know what the regular Kraken's 90 foot length represents. It could be mostly tentacle. The Zakharan Kraken is 62.5% tentacle (from 100 foot tentacle + 60 foot body = 160 feet total).

If it has a Reach commensurate with those 100 foot tentacles, I'm thinking we should consider making it Colossal. That'd work better with a 90 foot or 100 foot tentacle Reach. Will we give its arms a 100 ft. Reach too, since it doesn't say they're shorter, or make them 50 ft. Reach?

I'm not sure about increasing its physical stats (or damage). I imagine it's a weak, inbred creature, being an albino. Notice that despite its greater HD the original version has tentacles that do less damage than a regular Kraken's (2d8 vs 3d6).


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## Number 6 (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm with Cleon.  The implication is that this thing is bigger.  Let's make it Colossal.


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## Cleon (Jul 8, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> I'm with Cleon.  The implication is that this thing is bigger.  Let's make it Colossal.




Good!

Are you OK keeping the physical stats the same, despite the size increase?

If so, I might start a Working Draft.


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## Number 6 (Jul 8, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Good!
> 
> Are you OK keeping the physical stats the same, despite the size increase?
> 
> If so, I might start a Working Draft.



Certainly. I like the reasoning.


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## Cleon (Jul 8, 2011)

*Zakharan Kraken Working Draft*

*Kraken, Zakharan
*Colossal Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 25d10+225 (362 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 10 ft., swim 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 24 (-8 size, +22 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +25/+55
Attack: Tentacle +31 melee (2d8+14/19-20)
Full Attack: 2 tentacles +31 melee (2d8+14/19-20) and 6 arms +26 melee (1d6+7) and bite +26 melee (4d6+7/19-20)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft. (90 ft. with tentacle, 50 ft. with arm)
Special Attacks: Airy water, constrict 2d8+14 or 1d6+7, control temperature, fire of the deep, improved grab, spell-like abilities, venomous ink cloud
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., jet, low-light vision, spell-like abilities
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +14, Will +17
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 19, Wis 20, Cha 20
Skills: Concentration +22, Diplomacy +7, Hide -3, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (geography) +17, Knowledge (nature) +16, Listen +35, Search +27, Sense Motive +18, Spot +35, Survival +5 (+7 following tracks), Swim +20, Use Magic Device +17
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Improved Trip
Epic Feat: Dire Charge, Epic Will
Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 14
Treasure: Triple standard
Alignment: Any evil
Advancement: 26-75 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

Six of the beast's tentacles are shorter arms about 50 feet long; the remaining two are nearly 100 feet long and covered with barbs. Its beaklike mouth is located where the tentacles meet the lower portion of its body.

Krakens speak Common and Aquan.

* COMBAT*

Krakens strike their opponents with their barbed tentacles, then grab and crush with their arms or drag victims into their huge jaws. An opponent can make sunder attempts against a kraken's tentacles or arms as if they were weapons. A kraken's tentacles have 30 hit points, and its arms have 15 hit points. If a kraken is currently grappling a target with one tentacle or arm, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a kraken's tentacle or arm deals damage to the kraken equal to half the limb's full normal hit points. A kraken usually withdraws from combat if it loses both tentacles or three of its arms. A kraken regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days.

*Air Water (Su):* Once a day, a Zakharan kraken can  create an underwater zone of "airy water", covering a sphere up to 120  feet in radius or a hemisphere up to 240 ft. radius. All creatures  within the zone can breathe the airy water as if it were air or water  (whichever suits their respiratory systems the best). The airy water has  the physical and optical properties of air or water (the Kraken chooses  one or the other when it uses this power). Creatures in the zone of  airy water move and fight just as if it were ordinary water or air, as  appropriate. Thus, creatures can use their swim speed in water-mode airy  water, and can fly in air-mode airy water. An "air-mode" zone of airy  water looks like an enormous underwater  bubble of air, and  nonintelligent Aquatic creatures will instinctively  avoid entering it.  The zone of airy water has a duration of 25 hours, but the Kraken can  dismiss it as a standard action.

*Control Temperature (Su):* As a swift action, a Zakharan kraken can raise or  lower the temperature by 10 degrees Fahrenheit in a 100-foot-radius centered on  itself. Subsequent uses of this ability stack, up to a maximum change of 100 degrees, so it could, for example,  raise the temperature by a total of 20 degrees after two rounds. Normally, the temperature change lasts for 10 minutes. If the kraken uses control temperature within the area of its airy water power, the temperature change lasts as long as the airy water effect does.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, the kraken must hit with an arm or tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

*Constrict (Ex):* A kraken deals automatic arm or tentacle damage with a successful grapple check.

*Fire of the Deep (Sp):* As a standard action, a Zakharan Kraken  can cause creatures and objects in an area up to an 80 ft. cube with an  eldritch glow equal to _faerie fire_. This glow lasts up to 8  hours, but the Kraken can extinguish it as a (free?) action. This is the  equivalent of a 4th-level spell (CL 20th?).

* Jet (Ex):* A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting.

*Venomous Ink Cloud (Ex):* A Zakharen kraken can emit a cloud of jet-black  ink in an 80-foot spread once per minute as a free action. The cloud  provides total concealment, which the kraken normally uses to escape a  fight that is going badly. Creatures within the cloud are considered to  be in darkness.

The ink cloud contains a deadly contact poison, and is equally effective  on land and underwater.  The cloud persists for 1d4+1 rounds in either  case.

_ Zakharen kraken venom:_ Contact, Fortitude DC 30, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.     

_*Spell-Like Abilities (Sp):*_ At-will—_endure elements _(DC 16);  1/day—_animal summoning VI _(Aquatic  only), _water breathing _(DC 18); 1/day—_control weather_, _control winds_, _  dominate animal _(DC 18), _resist energy_ (DC 17). Caster level 15th. The  save DC is  Charisma-based.

*Skills:* A kraken has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2011)

Ok, I'm convinced on the size increase, but I think I'd boost the physical stats.  Maybe not the full amount, but a little.  They are "powerful" after all.

Poison seems ok, and I wouldn't object to boosting the damage, either.  Should be contact, though.  Can it use the ink cloud on land, since it's amphibious?  We should think about that.

You're right about the SLAs, but we might add something like faerie fire or summoning just to differentiate it more.


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## Cleon (Jul 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, I'm convinced on the size increase, but I think I'd boost the physical stats.  Maybe not the full amount, but a little.  They are "powerful" after all.




How about increasing the Strength by +4, but leaving the Con the same, since inbred albinos are not noted for their good health.



freyar said:


> Poison seems ok, and I wouldn't object to boosting the damage, either.  Should be contact, though.  Can it use the ink cloud on land, since it's amphibious?  We should think about that.




I'm OK with contact, but not so sure about increasing the damage.

There's nothing in the Ink Cloud writeup that prevents it from being used out of water.



freyar said:


> You're right about the SLAs, but we might add something like faerie fire or summoning just to differentiate it more.




Adding _faerie fire_ is fine by me.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2011)

Str +4 is fine.

Well, the wyvern already does 2d6 Con/2d6 Con, and these are much worse.  Then again, the DC is extremely high.  So I can see both sides about the poison damage.

Should the ink cloud spread turn into a cone in the air?  Or does it spread on the ground?  Do we need to add something about how long it lasts or how to disperse it, given that it's poisonous?


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Str +4 is fine.
> 
> Well, the wyvern already does 2d6 Con/2d6 Con, and these are much worse.  Then again, the DC is extremely high.  So I can see both sides about the poison damage.
> 
> Should the ink cloud spread turn into a cone in the air?  Or does it spread on the ground?  Do we need to add something about how long it lasts or how to disperse it, given that it's poisonous?




I'll update it when I can find the time.

No objection to increasing the damage, but I would rather the poison not linger. i.e. have it only lasts 1 round once the kraken expels it. Maybe it rapidly oxidises once exposed to the air/water?


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2011)

Catching up here.

Note that while the primary tentacles do less damage, the secondary tentacles do the same and the bite does more than a regular kraken. I think that's enough to justify the Str increase for size.  I'm also thinking Improved Critical (bite).

I thnk the poison should stick with the dimension of the ink cloud, and should not function on land.

Faerie fire sounds good for them.


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## Cleon (Jul 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Catching up here.
> 
> Note that while the primary tentacles do less damage, the secondary tentacles do the same and the bite does more than a regular kraken. I think that's enough to justify the Str increase for size.  I'm also thinking Improved Critical (bite).




Actually, a 5d6 bite has the same 17.5 average damage as the regular Kraken's 7d4 bite, it just has a higher standard deviation (i.e. the range of numbers is wider, but the distribution both peaks at the same damage).

Improved Critical (bite) is fine by me.

Dire Charge for the other feat? That's always useful.



Shade said:


> I thnk the poison should stick with the dimension of the ink cloud, and should not function on land.




I think the argument was more whether the poison would work as long as the ink-cloud is in existence.

If we make the poison Contact I think we'll have to have it work on land.

What about the suggestion of increasing the poison's Con damage?



Shade said:


> Faerie fire sounds good for them.




The SRD _faerie fire_ only affects a 5-ft burst for 1 minute/level. Should we increase the area of effect and duration, since the Kraken's lasts 8 hours?


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## Number 6 (Jul 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> The SRD _faerie fire_ only affects a 5-ft burst for 1 minute/level. Should we increase the area of effect and duration, since the Kraken's lasts 8 hours?



Should we allow it to cast _faerie fire_ at will?  Will that side-step the eight hour duration nicely, or will it cause trouble?


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## Cleon (Jul 13, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> Should we allow it to cast _faerie fire_ at will?  Will that side-step the eight hour duration nicely, or will it cause trouble?




The original was at-will, so that wouldn't be changing anything. Requiring the Kraken to refresh it every 9 minutes would be a lot more fiddly, I would rather give it a longer duration. We could bypass the spell limits by making it a unique power, something like:
*Fire of the Deep (Sp):* As a standard action, a Zakharan Kraken can cause creatures and objects in an area up to an 80 ft. cube with an eldritch glow equal to _faerie fire_. This glow lasts up to 8 hours, but the Kraken can extinguish it as a (free?) action. This is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell (CL X).​Speaking of the spell-like abilities, would anyone object to increasing the caster level to, say, 15th or 20th? CL 9th seems fairly pathetic for the SRD Kraken, and these fellows are a bit more potent. Oh, and I'd like to give them _animal summoning_ (Aquatic Only). Preferably higher than _III_, I'm thinking somewhere between _V_ and _VII_. Let's say _animal summoning VI_ for now?

Also, I would like to keep the original's _airy water_/control temperature effects. I've long liked the flavour of Krakens creating air-filled (or, possibly, airy-water filled) lairs filled with humanoid slaves, so I'd like to keep it.

I'm thinking it might be easier making them (Su) powers, and the SRD version's _resist energy_ goes some way to represent the temperature control power it's quite a ways from the same effects.

How about adding _endure elements_ and _water breathing_ to it's SLAs and adding some powers? It needs _water breathing_ so it can drag its humanoid victims down to its slave-pens at the bottom of the ocean without drowning them.

Example:

* Spell-Like Abilities (Sp):* At-will—endure elements (DC 16);  1/day—animal summoning VI (Aquatic only), water breathing (DC 18); 1/day—control weather, control winds,  dominate animal (DC 18), resist energy (DC 17). Caster level 15th. The save DC is  Charisma-based.

*Air Water (Su):* Once a day, a Zakharan kraken can create an underwater zone of "airy water", covering a sphere up to 120 feet in radius or a hemisphere up to 240 ft. radius. All creatures within the zone can breathe the airy water as if it were air or water (whichever suits their respiratory systems the best). The airy water has the physical and optical properties of air or water (the Kraken chooses one or the other when it uses this power). Creatures in the zone of airy water move and fight just as if it were ordinary water or air, as appropriate. Thus, creatures can use their swim speed in water-mode airy water, and can fly in air-mode airy water. An "air-mode" zone of airy water looks like an enormous underwater  bubble of air, and nonintelligent Aquatic creatures will instinctively  avoid entering it. The zone of airy water has a duration of 25 hours, but the Kraken can dismiss it as a standard action.

*Control Temperature (Su):* Once a day, a Zakharan Kraken can modify the temperature in a sphere up to 120 feet in radius or a hemisphere up to 240 ft. radius. The Kraken can raise or lower the temperature by up to two levels as described in the Weather & Environment rules (e.g. it could change normal cold weather to become hot weather, temperate weather, severe cold or extreme cold). The kraken can alter temperatures between -50 and 140 degrees fahrenheit, but cannot create or affect temperatures hotter or colder than that. This effect has a duration of 25 hours, but the Kraken can dismiss it as a standard action.


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## Cleon (Jul 13, 2011)

I've updated the *Working Draft* with the higher Strength we've agreed on and the (somewhat provisional) additional feats.

I also swapped the Iron Will for Epic Will. Might as well use both its Epic Feats, and it boost the Will save by 2.


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2011)

We already did a temperature control Su that we should probably borrow for consistency.  I think it was some unique genie (and one or two other monsters since then).  

I'd be happy with boosting the CL.  

Fire of the Deep looks ok.

How about making the ink disperse after 2 rounds?  (The SRD kraken doesn't say, actually.)  Then only boost the poison to 2d6/1d6 or something (or don't boost it).


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> We already did a temperature control Su that we should probably borrow for consistency.  I think it was some unique genie (and one or two other monsters since then).




That doesn't ring any bells, can you post it?



freyar said:


> I'd be happy with boosting the CL.
> 
> Fire of the Deep looks ok.




I'll leave off updating the Draft with them until we hear from a certain Shadowy individual.



freyar said:


> How about making the ink disperse after 2 rounds?  (The SRD kraken doesn't say, actually.)  Then only boost the poison to 2d6/1d6 or something (or don't boost it).




The AD&D Kraken's ink lasts for 1d4+1 rounds, so how about using that.

I'd rather leave the poison damage 1d6/1d6 and say it remains potent for the 2 to 5 round duration of the Ink Cloud.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2011)

Here's control temp:

Control Temperature (Su): As a swift action, a feng huang can raise or lower the temperature by 10 degrees in a 100-foot-radius centered on itself. Subsequent uses of this ability stack, so it could, for example, raise the temperature by a total of 20 degrees after two rounds. 


Fire of the Deep looks fine.

I still don't like the idea of using the ink cloud on land.  If anything, it should just fall on the ground and function as a venomous grease spell.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2011)

That's the Su ability I was thinking about.  I'd just grab that.

Ok, let's have the ink cloud disperse in 1d4+1 rounds, have 1d6/1d6 damage, and stay toxic the whole time it's there.  I agree with Shade (and that's what I was trying to get at before).  Having it be poisonous grease would be perfect.  Disperses/runs off after the same duration?


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Here's control temp:
> 
> Control Temperature (Su): As a swift action, a feng huang can raise or lower the temperature by 10 degrees in a 100-foot-radius centered on itself. Subsequent uses of this ability stack, so it could, for example, raise the temperature by a total of 20 degrees after two rounds.




Would it astonish you to read that I prefer my own version.

Anyhow, I don't like the unlimited stacking of this version. If it uses it for an hour straight it can raise the temperature by 6000 degrees!



Shade said:


> Fire of the Deep looks fine.
> 
> I still don't like the idea of using the ink cloud on land. If anything, it should just fall on the ground and function as a venomous grease spell.




Well wouldn't it blind or poison anything in the area of effect when they get ink sprayed all over them.

Don't think the ink should be slippery though, I'd rather it be just a "field of venom" when used on land.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Would it astonish you to read that I prefer my own version.




No, it wouldn't surprise me at all.  



Cleon said:


> Anyhow, I don't like the unlimited stacking of this version. If it uses it for an hour straight it can raise the temperature by 6000 degrees!




We could add a max change to remedy that.



Cleon said:


> Well wouldn't it blind or poison anything in the area of effect when they get ink sprayed all over them.




It depends on how it is able to propel it on land.  If it can position itself to spray a stream directly at a foe, then probably.  If it just dribbles out the bottom, probably not.



Cleon said:


> Don't think the ink should be slippery though, I'd rather it be just a "field of venom" when used on land.




I'm fine with just a covering of contact poison until the ground absorbs it.


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## Number 6 (Jul 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> We could add a max change to remedy that.



Let's just max it out at 100 degrees (one minute of stacking).


Shade said:


> It depends on how it is able to propel it on land.  If it can position itself to spray a stream directly at a foe, then probably.  If it just dribbles out the bottom, probably not.



The guys are going to want it to shoot out as a line effect... let's go for it.


Shade said:


> I'm fine with just a covering of contact poison until the ground absorbs it.



Should it get absorbed after five rounds?  Ten rounds?


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> It depends on how it is able to propel it on land.  If it can position itself to spray a stream directly at a foe, then probably.  If it just dribbles out the bottom, probably not.




Wouldn't it squirt it out of its funnel, like real-world cephalopods do when producing an ink cloud?


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> Should it get absorbed after five rounds?  Ten rounds?




I'd just set the duration to 2-5 rounds regardless of whether it's land or sea.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Wouldn't it squirt it out of its funnel, like real-world cephalopods do when producing an ink cloud?






Cleon said:


> I'd just set the duration to 2-5 rounds regardless of whether it's land or sea.




That'll do.


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## Number 6 (Jul 22, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> The guys are going to want it to shoot out as a line effect...



Obviously not.  I don't know what I was thinking.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> That'll do.




Care to write up a SA for it, then?


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## Shade (Jul 25, 2011)

Like so?

Venomous Ink Cloud (Ex): A Zakharen kraken can emit a cloud of jet-black ink in an 80-foot spread once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment, which the kraken normally uses to escape a fight that is going badly. Creatures within the cloud are considered to be in darkness.

The ink cloud contains a deadly contact poison, and is equally effective on land and underwater.  The cloud persists for 1d4+1 rounds in either case.

Zakharen kraken venom: Contact, Fortitude DC x, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> Like so?
> 
> Venomous Ink Cloud (Ex): A Zakharen kraken can emit a cloud of jet-black ink in an 80-foot spread once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment, which the kraken normally uses to escape a fight that is going badly. Creatures within the cloud are considered to be in darkness.
> 
> ...




Looks good.

There was an earlier proposal to increase the damage. I'm OK with 1d6 though (especially as it lasts 2-5 rounds!).


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## Shade (Aug 2, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Looks good.
> 
> There was an earlier proposal to increase the damage. I'm OK with 1d6 though (especially as it lasts 2-5 rounds!).




As am I.   Care to update your working draft?


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## freyar (Aug 3, 2011)

Ink cloud looks good!  Ready to get going when the draft is updated.


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> As am I.   Care to update your working draft?




I will but it'll have to wait a few hours, I'm just setting off to the cinema...


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## Number 6 (Aug 5, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I will but it'll have to wait a few hours, I'm just setting off to the cinema...



[Off Topic] What did you see? [/Off Topic]


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> [Off Topic] What did you see? [/Off Topic]




_*Icabus XB1*_.

I'm updating the *Working Draft* with Airy Water, Fire of the Deep, the modified SLAs and Venomous Ink Cloud.

We still seem to be arguing over Control Temperature.


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2011)

Cleon said:


> We still seem to be arguing over Control Temperature.




What part were we arguing?  Last I remember, I thought we'd agreed on a max temp.


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## freyar (Aug 8, 2011)

I thought we were only going to let it stack up to 100 degrees?


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> What part were we arguing?  Last I remember, I thought we'd agreed on a max temp.




Well I was arguing I liked my version better... 



freyar said:


> I thought we were only going to let it stack up to 100 degrees?




That works, I suppose.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2011)

So, if we use the "capped at 100 degrees" version, what's left?


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> So, if we use the "capped at 100 degrees" version, what's left?




Updating the *Working Draft* with Control Temperature, I used this text:
*Control Temperature (Su):* As a swift action, a Zakharan kraken  can raise or  lower the temperature by 10 degrees Fahrenheit in a 100-foot-radius  centered on  itself. Subsequent uses of this ability stack, up to a maximum change of  100 degrees, so it could, for example,  raise the temperature by a total of 20 degrees after two rounds.  Normally, the temperature change lasts for 10 minutes. If the kraken  uses control temperature within the area of its airy water power, the  temperature change lasts as long as the airy water effect does.​As to what's left, we need to recalculate its Skills and rework the description/background/tactic text.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2011)

Did we rework feats already?  Hmmm.

Anyone care to figure the ranks of the normal kraken?


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Did we rework feats already?  Hmmm.




Yes we did.



freyar said:


> Anyone care to figure the ranks of the normal kraken?




Let's see.

*Kraken Skills:
*Concentration +21: +9 Con = ranks *12*
Diplomacy +7: Wis +5, synergy +2 = ranks *0*
Hide +0: +0 Dex, -12 size = ranks *12*
Intimidate +16: +5 Cha = ranks *11*
Knowledge  (geography) +17: Int +5 = ranks *12*
Knowledge (nature) +16: Int +5 = ranks *11*
Listen +30: Wis +5, feat +2 = ranks *23*
Search +28: Int +5 = ranks *23*
Sense  Motive +17: Wis +5 = ranks *12*
Spot +30: Wis +5, feat +2 = ranks *23*
Survival +5 (+7 following tracks): Wis +5, synergy +2 w/tracks = ranks *0*
Swim +20: Str +12, racial +8 = ranks *0*
Use  Magic Device +16: Cha +5 = ranks *11*

So that breaks down to:
Skill Ranks: Concentration *12*, Diplomacy *0*, Hide *12*, Intimidate *11*, Knowledge  (geography) *12*, Knowledge (nature) *11, *Listen *23*, Search *23*, Sense  Motive *12*, Spot *23*, Survival *0*, Swim *0*, Use  Magic Device *11*

Hold on, that's 150 skill ranks.  The SRD Kraken's short by by 11 points.

It should have 161 SPs (HD+3 times 2 + Int, or 23*7).


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2011)

Well, the SRD monsters a little buggy sometimes.

Speaking of ranks, doesn't the Zakharan version need (25+3)x(2+4)=168 ranks?


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, the SRD monsters a little buggy sometimes.
> 
> Speaking of ranks, doesn't the Zakharan version need (25+3)x(2+4)=168 ranks?




That's right.

So, that's 18 more than the SRD Kraken.

How about giving the Zakharan version maxed-out Listen and Spot (costing 10 skill points) and dividing the remaining 8 skill points evenly among the 8 other skills is has ranks in?

I don't think it needs maxed-out Search.
*
Skill Ranks:* Concentration *13*, Diplomacy *0*, Hide *13*, Intimidate *12*, Knowledge  (geography) *13*, Knowledge (nature) *12, *Listen *28*, Search *24*, Sense  Motive *13*, Spot *28*, Survival *0*, Swim *0*, Use  Magic Device *12*


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## Shade (Aug 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> How about giving the Zakharan version maxed-out Listen and Spot (costing 10 skill points) and dividing the remaining 8 skill points evenly among the 8 other skills is has ranks in?
> 
> I don't think it needs maxed-out Search.
> *
> Skill Ranks:* Concentration *13*, Diplomacy *0*, Hide *13*, Intimidate *12*, Knowledge  (geography) *13*, Knowledge (nature) *12, *Listen *28*, Search *24*, Sense  Motive *13*, Spot *28*, Survival *0*, Swim *0*, Use  Magic Device *12*




This approach appeals.


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> This approach appeals.




Updating the *Working Draft*.

The changes work out to Concentration +22, Diplomacy +7,  Hide -3, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (geography) +17, Knowledge (nature)  +16, Listen +35, Search +27, Sense Motive +18, Spot +35, Survival +5 (+7  following tracks), Swim +20, Use Magic Device +17.

Notice the Search actually goes down 1, since it has the same ranks but an Int bonus 1 lower.


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2011)

I think it's safe to remove all the red question marks.  They all look good.


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## freyar (Aug 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I think it's safe to remove all the red question marks.  They all look good.



I'm with Shade.  Are they done in that case?


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm with Shade.  Are they done in that case?




 Updating the *Working Draft*.

I'd like to expand the background to cover their fondness for underwater slave pens, extortion, and dreaming of the old days when the Kraken ruled the coast.

Maybe mention they have shells in the description?


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2011)

Sure!  You guys are much better at this part that I am...


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## Cleon (Aug 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sure!  You guys are much better at this part that I am...




Why do I get the feeling that means "let Cleon do all the work"?


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Why do I get the feeling that means "let Cleon do all the work"?




Here, have an assist.  

_A mass of tentacles, a pair of large arms, and an enormous beak spill out of a massive shell.  Two eyes glimmer with malevolence._

Long ago, these krakens ruled the coasts of Zakhara, but some ancient event forced them to the depths.  Over the centuries they grew in both size and thirst to reclaim the coasts.

Zakharan krakens are loners, congregating only during monsoons to mate.  Females lay their eggs in the deepest trenches, then abandon them.

Zakharan krakens occasionally lead armies of sahuagin or ixitxachitl in strikes against coastal cities and shipping lanes.  These lesser aquatic denizens offer tribute and servitude in exchange for protection (mostly from the krakens themselves).  Some Zakharan krakens breed humanoid slaves in air-filled caverns, using them as both servants and livestock.  They supplement these stores from capsized vessels periodically.

While few undersea creatures pose much of a threat to Zakharan krakens, they have an ongoing emnity with aboleths (whom they consider upstarts, despite the aboleth's ancient lineage) and marids, who hunt them for sport.  Zakharan krakens prey primarily upon other cephalopods, whales, and even young zaratan.

Six of the beast's tentacles are shorter arms about 50 feet long; the remaining two are nearly 100 feet long and covered with barbs. Its beaklike mouth is located where the tentacles meet the lower portion of its body.

Zakharan krakens speak Aquan, Common and Sahuagin.

COMBAT

Krakens strike their opponents with their barbed tentacles, then grab and crush with their arms or drag victims into their huge jaws. An opponent can make sunder attempts against a kraken's tentacles or arms as if they were weapons. A kraken's tentacles have 30 hit points, and its arms have 15 hit points. If a kraken is currently grappling a target with one tentacle or arm, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a kraken's tentacle or arm deals damage to the kraken equal to half the limb's full normal hit points. A kraken usually withdraws from combat if it loses both tentacles or three of its arms. A kraken regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2011)

I like that!


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## Cleon (Aug 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Here, have an assist.
> 
> _A mass of tentacles, a pair of large arms, and an enormous beak spill out of a massive shell.  Two eyes glimmer with malevolence._




OK, the description needs to mention they're albinos. I'd like to have some more references to their _Dragon #198_ illustration.

_A vast, leprous white creature bigger than some ships. Its body is  encased in a thick shell, from which spout a squirming mass of  octopus-like tentacles, a huge head, and a strangely humanoid pair of  arms. Two of its tentacles are almost twice as long as the others, and  are armed with flesh-ripping barbs. The creature's ghastly head combines  the worst features of a deep-sea fish, an octopus, and an aquatic ogre.  Two red eyes glimmer with malevolence above an enormous beak.

_Ages ago, the Zakharan kraken ruled the coast lands, but some ancient event forced them to retreat the depths. They are now few in number, but have grown into albino giants who still brood and plot for the day the kraken shall rise and retake the surface lands.

Zakharan kraken can breathe air and water. They find living out of water distasteful, but can survive on land for many months. Their two humanoid arms are mostly used for fine manipulation and to wield magic items. In theory, a Zakharan kraken could wield titan-sized weapons in its hands, but they prefer their natural weapons and rarely develop any skill in arms.

Zakharan krakens are loners, congregating only during monsoons to mate.  Females lay their eggs in the deepest trenches, then abandon them.

Few undersea creatures pose much of a threat to Zakharan krakens; the marid hunt them for  sport and young kraken basking on the surface may be taken by rocs. Zakharan krakens prey primarily upon enormous sea creatures such as giant cephalopods and whales.

Some Zakharan krakens breed humanoid slaves in air-filled caverns,  using them as both servants and livestock. The plight of these slaves is wretched and hopeless. Any that displease their master's whims are tortured and/or devoured, and even should they rebel successfully it would ensure their quick death, for it is only the kraken's power that keeps at bay the crushing and icy cold waters of the oceanic abyss.

Zakharan krakens particularly loathe the aboleths, whom they consider upstarts,  despite the aboleth's ancient lineage. Other aquatic denizens may offer tribute and sacrifice to a Zakharan  kraken in exchange for protection (mostly from the kraken itself). Some lesser evil beings of the deep - usually sahuagin or ixitxachitl - may willingly serve these monsters, and a kraken may occasionally lead armies of evil sea-dwellers against coastal cities and shipping lanes.  Krakens frequently menace passing ships, extorting treasure and slaves from them, or simply attacking and taking what they desire.

A Zakharan kraken is roughly 60 feet long from beak to tail-tip. Six of the beast's tentacles are shorter arms about 50 feet long; the remaining two are nearly 100 feet long and covered with barbs.

Zakharan krakens speak Aquan, Common and Sahuagin.

* COMBAT*

Krakens strike their opponents with their barbed tentacles, then grab  and crush with their arms or drag victims into their huge jaws. An  opponent can make sunder attempts against a kraken's tentacles or arms  as if they were weapons. A kraken's tentacles have 30 hit points, and  its arms have 15 hit points. If a kraken is currently grappling a target  with one tentacle or arm, it usually uses another limb to make its  attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a kraken's  tentacle or arm deals damage to the kraken equal to half the limb's full  normal hit points. A kraken usually withdraws from combat if it loses  both tentacles or three of its arms. A kraken regrows severed limbs in  1d10+10 days.

A Zakharan kraken has a genius intelligence which it makes full use of in combat. If given time, it will summon storms or aquatic animals to inconvenience its opponents. They place great value on their own lives and readily retreat from a tough fight. The lives of other creatures are of scant value to a kraken, and it will kill an army of slaves or followers to spare itself pain or mere inconvenience.

If a Zakharan kraken is forced to retreat it will try to carry off any prospective slaves it has grappled in its tentacles. The kraken usually has to use its _water breathing_ and _endure elements_ spell-like abilities on its captives so they don't freeze and drown during their journey to submarine slavery.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2011)

I blended the flavor text with your working draft and added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Aug 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> I blended the flavor text with your working draft and added to Homebrews.




That looks done, unless someone can spot any errors?


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2011)

Here's the next one...

*Vizier’s Turban*
Climate/Terrain: Any land 
Frequency: Very rare 
Organization: Solitary 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Special (see below) 
Intelligence: Genius (17-18) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Any 
No. Appearing: 1 
Armor Class: See below 
Movement: 3 
Hit Dice: See below 
THAC0: 0 
No. of Attacks: 0 
Damage/Attack: Nil 
Special Attacks: Nil 
Special Defenses: See below 
Magic Resistance: See below 
Size: S (2-4’ long) 
Morale: Elite (13-14) 
XP Value: 2,000 

The vizier’s turban is a symbiotic creature which attaches itself to a wizard. It provides its partner with greatly enhanced spellcasting potential and magic resistance. In return, the wizard agrees to a permanent loss of hit points, which are used by the creature to sustain itself. The potential power to be gained by bonding with a vizier’s turban far outweighs the sacrifice to the wizard. The vizier’s turban cannot bond with a sha’ir (desert mage specializing in genies).

A vizier’s turban looks like a turban (of any color) secured by two bright jewels (its eyes). Its skin resembles fine cloth. It can change color to suit its partner’s attire and can reshape itself somewhat to look more like a scarf or veil for female wizards who prefer such attire to turbans. A vizier’s turban enjoys watching what goes on around it from its vantage point atop its partner’s head and communicates telepathically with its host.

The wizard decides how many hit points (up to a maximum of 10) to permanently give up to his or her vizier’s turban. One hit point may be given to the symbiote whenever the wizard gains a new level, so it is possible to find an 11th-level wizard whose vizier’s turban has 10 hit points, or a 9th-level wizard who has one with only 2 hp. The number of hit points the symbiote has is a function both of how many its wizard sacrifices to it and at what point in the wizards career the vizier’s turban met and bonded with the wizard.

Combat: Vzzier’s turbans make no attacks and cause no damage. For all practical purposes, the vizier’s turban and its host function as a single being. The symbiote is content to let its partner control the thinking, movement, and body functions. It will give advice only if specifically asked.

The potential power which a vizier’s turban can bring to its wizard is a function of how many hit points it has. It saves as a wizard of the same level as it has hit points, so a vizier’s turban with 4 hit points would save as a 4th-level wizard. It also provides its host with 5% magic resistance for every 2 hit points it has, up to a maximum of 25%. Vizier’s turbans cannot have more than 10 hit points; extra hit points sacrificed to it are lost as if the wizard were wounded and can be healed normallv.

For every hit point it receives, the creature enhances its chosen wizard’s spellcasting abilities, as detailed on the following chart:

1 hp = One extra 1st-level spell per day
2 hp = 5% magic resistance
3 hp = One extra 2nd-level spell per day
4 hp = 10% magic resistance
5 hp = One extra 3rd-level spell per day
6 hp = 15% magic resistance
7 hp = One extra 4th-level spell per day
8 hp = 20% magic resistance
9 hp = One extra 5th-level spell per day
10 hp = 25% magic resistance
The maximum benefit a wizard can derive from a vizier’s turban is thus one 1st-, one 2nd-, one 3rd-, one 4th-, and one 5th-level spell per day plus a magic resistance of 25%. Vizier’s turbans do not know any spells themselves, nor can they give their partners access to spells the wizard does not already know or is not usually allowed to cast. All restrictions as to elemental provinces, spell schools, and other limiting factors remain in force. The vizier’s turban in no way allows its partner access to clerical spells, nor does it enhance such spells should its partner be a wizard/priest. These symbiotes provide no benefits to sha’irs at all and cannot bond with them.

Damage to its host from weapons, whether normal or magical, has no effect on a vizier’s turban. Even if struck directly by a weapon, the damage passes right through the creature and affects its host instead. Secondary effes which emulate spell effects (such as an electrical attack which occurs when the sword strikes) are handled similarly to magical attacks against the symbiote or its host.

Spells and magical items which produce spell-like effects may affect a vizier’s turban. Single target spells (such as charm person) and nondamaging area-of-effect spells (such as chaos) have no effect on a vizier’s turban, even if the creature is the primary target of such a spell. If its partner fails the magic resistance roll provided by the vizier’s turban and also fails his or her saving throw vs. a damaging area-of-effect spell, then the symbiote must also make a saving throw vs. spell. If it fails, the creature is affected by the spell as a separate entity, which almost guarantees its demise. If it successfully saves, it is affected as if it were a natural part of its partner, with its hit points being the last to be lost.

For example, a host mage with 24 hp has given 2 hp to his vizier’s turban, leaving him with 22 hp. The mage is hit by a fireball for 23 points damage and fails both his magic resistance check and saving throw, meaning he takes full damage. The symbiote now saves and, if successful, takes only 1 point of damage (the amount by which the spell damage exceeded the mage’s hit point total). Since the vizier’s turban would still be alive, it could find another host. Had the fireball done 24 or more points, the symbiote would be dead. If it had caused 22 or fewer points, the vizier’s turban would have been unharmed. Had the mage made his saving throw or his magic resistance check, the vizier’s turban would have been completely unaffected, even if its host had been killed by cumulative damage.

If the vizier’s turban has more than 1 hit point left at any time that its host wizard is badly injured (i.e., reduced to half or less of his hit points total), it can return all but 1 of its hit points to its host. These regained hit points function just as if a healing spell had been used on the wizard and had restored that many hit points. Once the wizard is restored to full hit points, he or she must return these hit points to the symbiote. One hit point is always lost permanently in this exchange, reducing the wizard’s total by 1, so this exchange is not made frivolously. Furthermore, returning the hit points to his or her symbiote wounds the wizard for that many points of damage – damage that can only be healed magically. The 1 hit point lost in this exchange cannot be restored by any means short of a wish.

Habitat/Society: There are several theories as to the origin of vizier’s turbans. One theory suggests that the turbans are actually lesser genies of some sort, either condemned to serve wizards for some transgression against other genies or specifically shaped to perform the duties they do (much like tasked genies). Another theory contends that vizier’s turbans were originally just that – magical headgear which somehow developed both intelligence and a sense of self while retaining their magical properties. The theory which has gained the most acceptance is that the creatures were originally some sort of familiar.

Whatever their origin, vizier’s turbans do not appear to reproduce in any discernible panner, and no mated pairs have ever been found. When two vizier’s turbans meet (usually while traveling with their bonded wizards), they will greet one another politely but refrain from long conversation, as though they had no interest in one another. They seem to have no differentiation of sex, adopting a male or female outlook to match that of their host. It has been theorized that the creature may reproduce by fission, forming a duplicate which is then left to fend for itself. Until it bonds with a wizard, the vizier‘s turban is considered to have only a single hit point.

Though it recognizes that it is a separate being from its host, a vizier’s turban takes its personality and reactions to situations directly from its partner. It wiU never disagree with a decision made by its host unless asked to give its own opinion. It has no opinions about what spells the wizard should study or which ones he or she should cast in a given situation, since it does not itself have any spellcasting talent. It does not understand and cannot read the spells which its wizard learns but instead derives a sense of satisfaction from feeling its wizard‘s emotional response to both learning and casting spells.

The vizier’s turban seems to have no fixed ethical sense, changing alignment to match that of its host and adopting his or her point of view. When not with a host, the creature alignment detects as being true neutral. If a vizier’s turban changes hosts, it will change its alignment to fit that of its new host, if different.

A vizier’s turban exists on the hit points given to it and on the companionship of its chosen wizard. It eagerly engages in philosophical discussions with its host if the wizard initiates the conversation. It has no need to eat or drink but does enjoy being bathed, and it likes to rearrange itself into different styles of turbans when given the chance.

Keenly curious, a vizier‘s turban is always happy to travel with its host to see new places and things. It is very observant, though it reacts to stimuli with a never-ending sense of wonder rather than logically. If it sees a lion charging its wizard, for instance, it does not warn the wizard but rather goggles at the wondrous creature rapidly approaching.

A vizier’s turban is least happy when separated from its partner, and mourns if it is taken off and left behind when its wizard goes out. A vizier’s turban that is ignored by its wizard becomes depressed, and if not allowed to participate more fully in its wizards life will eventually leave and seek a new partner. If a vizier’s turban leaves its wizard, it takes half the hit points it has received away with it. The wizard regains the other hit points but permanently loses those retained by the turban.

Although they can be found almost anywhere, it takes a keen eye and a desire to bond with one to locate a vizier’s turban. Even then, its rarity makes it unlikely that a wizard who is not spending every waking hour searching for one will find one. They are virtual masters of disguise since they look like strips of material when unwound and like scarves, turbans, or veils when posing.

This odd creature does not detect as magical but can be found via spells or devices which detect life or alignment. Its sense of humor is such that it is amused by the antics wizards go through to locate it. Indeed, its attempts at disguise and camouflage may be a test to see if a particular wizard is clever enough to find it and therefore worthy to become its partner. When its eyes are closed, it is indistinguishable from any other item of clothing. Favorite hiding places for vizier’s turbans are at cloth markets, inside wardrobes, in rag bags, and among caravan trade goods. Since it can change color at will, it can be quite difficult to spot one should it wish to remain hidden.

Ecology: Vizier’s turbans have no real effect on their environment other than upon the wizards they bond with. They occupy a unique niche. No one has ever seen a vizier’s turban die of natural causes, so it is impossible to estimate how long they live. They might even be immortal.

Originally appeared in Corsairs of the Great Sea (1994).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2011)

Odd critters.  Magical Beasts, I guess.  Maybe make them improved familiars?  And swap the hp loss for Con drain?  (I guess Toughness does give us precedent for dealing directly with hp, though.)


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2011)

They definitely seem like symbionts from Fiend Folio.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2011)

True.  Should try to remember to review those this weekend.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Odd critters.  Magical Beasts, I guess.  Maybe make them improved familiars?  And swap the hp loss for Con drain?  (I guess Toughness does give us precedent for dealing directly with hp, though.)




I'm thinking more Aberration or Native Outsider. They seem much too peculiar to be plain old Magical Beasts.

I think I'd lean towards hit point sacrifice over Constitution drain, since it says the cost is minor. Losing 10 Con doesn't seem very minor to me!

Oh, and these definitely look similar to the 3E version of Symbiotes.


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## Number 6 (Aug 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> Odd critters.  Magical Beasts, I guess.  Maybe make them improved familiars?  And swap the hp loss for Con drain?  (I guess Toughness does give us precedent for dealing directly with hp, though.)



Cleon's reluctance for Con drain makes me think we could use a Con reduction in a different way...

Instead of a Con drain for each granted ability, perhaps the Vizier's Turban imposes a -1 penalty on the Con score for each spell level.  (It might bear a resemblance to the Quintessential Wizard feat that lets a wizard temporarily burn Con points to boost their spells.)  The Spell Resistance cost would be a one-for-one cost.

Cleon's point would still stand... a -5 penalty to Con (much less any ability score) might cause any player to wince, but a bonus spell and Spell Resistance seems worth it.

Alternatively, we could maintain the hit point drain but apply it in a similar fashion... the wearer/host would suffer a unique -2 per spell level penalty to his total hit point score.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> Cleon's reluctance for Con drain makes me think we could use a Con reduction in a different way...
> 
> Instead of a Con drain for each granted ability, perhaps the Vizier's Turban imposes a -1 penalty on the Con score for each spell level.  (It might bear a resemblance to the Quintessential Wizard feat that lets a wizard temporarily burn Con points to boost their spells.)  The Spell Resistance cost would be a one-for-one cost.
> 
> ...




I'd like that approach better. Certainly the penalty should be something that can't be removed as long as the Turban is worn, like the negative level some magic items impose on inappropriate users.

A -5 Con penalty might still be too much. That's -2 or possibly -3 hit points/level, plus the same penalty to Fort saves and Concentration skill penalties. That's a lot worse than the original's -1 hp/level. The worst (10 hp) cost would be passed at 4th-5th level. (-3 hp/level at 4th level or -2 hp/level at 5th).

So, how about going for a straight HP reduction/penalty like the original?


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## Number 6 (Aug 30, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd like that approach better. Certainly the penalty should be something that can't be removed as long as the Turban is worn, like the negative level some magic items impose on inappropriate users.
> 
> ...So, how about going for a straight HP reduction/penalty like the original?



Sure... keeps it consistent.
Perhaps the hit point penalty lasts as long as the Turban is worn and for 24 hours after it is taken off.


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## Cleon (Aug 31, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> Sure... keeps it consistent.
> Perhaps the hit point penalty lasts as long as the Turban is worn and for 24 hours after it is taken off.




I'd rather it be longer than that. Say, the hit point reduction lasts as long as the turban is "alive" (in quotes because I'm still thinking it might be a Construct), until a week or month after the Turban is worn, or maybe they must make a difficult Will save to break the turban-bond.

Would we keep the original's HP = HP sacrificed by the mage? I'm thinking we might be better off giving it its own HD. Maybe with a familiar-like "effective HD equals master" ability, or adding positive levels equal to the sacrificed HP (maximum 10)?

Also, we should probably drop the "permanent HP loss" element of the creature, but what do we do about healing. We might as well keep its ability to heal its host with its own HP, but how does it heal its own HPs? Indeed, can it heal itself. If we decide on it being a Construct, maybe its master has to take HP of damage to heal its wounds?


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2011)

I could go for aberration.  I don't like construct.

"Anti-toughness" hp loss is fine if Shade agrees.  Regaining the hp after a Will save works for me.

Working HD like familiars makes sense.


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## Cleon (Sep 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> I could go for aberration.  I don't like construct.




How about Native Outsider, since there are rumours they were once Genies?

I _might_ accept Aberration, but I definitely don't like the earlier suggestion of Magical Beast.



freyar said:


> "Anti-toughness" hp loss is fine if Shade agrees.  Regaining the hp after a Will save works for me.
> 
> Working HD like familiars makes sense.




Shall we rough out a SQ then?

Does the turban "replace" a familiar?


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2011)

Don't like Outsider much.  "The theory which has gained the most acceptance is that the creatures were originally some sort of familiar." actually suggests Magical Beast, which you don't like.  I think Aberration might be all we can agree on.

I'd make it an Improved Familiar, though maybe at a lower level than you'd think due to the penalties.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Don't like Outsider much.  "The theory which has gained the most acceptance is that the creatures were originally some sort of familiar." actually suggests Magical Beast, which you don't like.  I think Aberration might be all we can agree on.




Aberration it is then.



freyar said:


> I'd make it an Improved Familiar, though maybe at a lower level than you'd think due to the penalties.




Have to think about that.

Not sure I like the idea of it requiring a feat to acquire.


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## freyar (Sep 6, 2011)

Yeah, I guess with the symbiosis and penalties, it might not need to be a familiar per se, either.


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## Cleon (Sep 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I guess with the symbiosis and penalties, it might not need to be a familiar per se, either.




So, are we allowing an arcane caster to have a vizier's turban and a familiar then?


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2011)

Aberration seems the best fit.



Cleon said:


> So, are we allowing an arcane caster to have a vizier's turban and a familiar then?




I have no objections.

I suppose the hp loss could work, although I'd favor this approach from other symbionts (replacing Int with Con in the example below):

Mind Feeding (Su): A cerebral hood survives by consuming its host's mental energy. This deals 1 point of Intelligence damage each day the hood remains attached. Ordinarily, the host regains 1 point of lost Intelligence each night, just before the cerebral hood drains a new point, keeping the host at an equilibrium point of -1 to its Intelligence. When the cerebral hood uses its mind blast, however, it deals extra Intelligence damage, so overuse of that special attack can eventually destroy the host's mind.

Still, if the majority prefers hp loss, I'll deal with it.


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## Cleon (Sep 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> I suppose the hp loss could work, although I'd favor this approach from other symbionts (replacing Int with Con in the example below):
> 
> Mind Feeding (Su): A cerebral hood survives by consuming its host's mental energy. This deals 1 point of Intelligence damage each day the hood remains attached. Ordinarily, the host regains 1 point of lost Intelligence each night, just before the cerebral hood drains a new point, keeping the host at an equilibrium point of -1 to its Intelligence. When the cerebral hood uses its mind blast, however, it deals extra Intelligence damage, so overuse of that special attack can eventually destroy the host's mind.




Don't mind the approach, but the implementation is a bit problematic. What's to stop the wearer using _lesser restoration_ or the like to heal the ability damage? Wouldn't it be better as a penalty?


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## freyar (Sep 8, 2011)

Is there a problem with letting people burn restoration spells?


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## Number 6 (Sep 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Is there a problem with letting people burn restoration spells?



Lesser Restoration seems like a reasonably cheap way to avoid the drawbacks.


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## Cleon (Sep 10, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> Lesser Restoration seems like a reasonably cheap way to avoid the drawbacks.




Exactly. It's too cheap. All you need is a 1/day item of _lesser restoration_ (10800 gp according to the SRD's Magic Item cost guidelines) and it has no effect.

Come to think of it, it also means the turban imposes no penalty on creatures immune to Constitution damage. I think we'd better say it only enhances living creatures whose Con (or HPs, if we go that route) it can feed on.


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## Number 6 (Sep 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Exactly. It's too cheap. All you need is a 1/day item of _lesser restoration_ (10800 gp according to the SRD's Magic Item cost guidelines) and it has no effect.
> 
> Come to think of it, it also means the turban imposes no penalty on creatures immune to Constitution damage. I think we'd better say it only enhances living creatures whose Con (or HPs, if we go that route) it can feed on.



That's the main reason I believe it needs to have an ongoing penalty... the turban should not drain or do damage, but the mechanism should be a temporary reduction in total hit points.

Perhaps ten total points or 1 per caster level.

Such a penalty should last for a minimum of one day after the turban is removed (or as Cleon suggested, until the thing dies).  

We might also want to require that the turban's advantages do not take effect until the wearer has bonded with it for at least a day.

Come to think of it, a wizard might make himself suspicious if he wears the turban all the time, even when sleeping.  Other wizards who know about these turbans might consider drastic measures to get the turban for themselves.  I don't know if we want to consider further options... I've gotta think about this some more.


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## Cleon (Sep 11, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> That's the main reason I believe it needs to have an ongoing penalty... the turban should not drain or do damage, but the mechanism should be a temporary reduction in total hit points.
> 
> Perhaps ten total points or 1 per caster level.
> 
> ...




I'd be happier with a hit point penalty than a Con penalty, but might go along with the latter.



Number 6 said:


> Come to think of it, a wizard might make himself suspicious if he wears the turban all the time, even when sleeping.  Other wizards who know about these turbans might consider drastic measures to get the turban for themselves.  I don't know if we want to consider further options... I've gotta think about this some more.




The turban seems to be able to change its appearance, so it could look like a headscarf, bandana, cloth cap, nightcap _et cetera_ to avoid suspicion.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2011)

If you insist, a Con penalty or maybe say its damage that can't be removed (like negative levels when bearing wrong-alignment items of various types).  But we're also not talking about an amazing benefit, either, if you want to cost it out.  A 1/day lesser restoration item removes 1d4 Con damage, which might on average only get you a 1st level spell and 1 point of SR.  Since a 1st level pearl of power is only worth 1000 gp and I don't think the SR is worth that much, you'd be taking on a big cost to get rid of the Con damage.

I'd like to hear Shade's thoughts on this.


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## Cleon (Sep 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> If you insist, a Con penalty or maybe say its damage that can't be removed (like negative levels when bearing wrong-alignment items of various types).  But we're also not talking about an amazing benefit, either, if you want to cost it out.  A 1/day lesser restoration item removes 1d4 Con damage, which might on average only get you a 1st level spell and 1 point of SR.  Since a 1st level pearl of power is only worth 1000 gp and I don't think the SR is worth that much, you'd be taking on a big cost to get rid of the Con damage.
> 
> I'd like to hear Shade's thoughts on this.




Yes, I agree we might as well wait to see what Shade's view is.


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## Shade (Sep 13, 2011)

I prefer Con damage.  I don't mind the use of lesser restoration, etc. daily to counteract it.  It is still using up some resources, and as freyar points out, the benefit isn't that grand.

I think the ability damage approach works just fine with the illithid symbionts, so I'm happy to support that method.


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## Cleon (Sep 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> I prefer Con damage.  I don't mind the use of lesser restoration, etc. daily to counteract it.  It is still using up some resources, and as freyar points out, the benefit isn't that grand.
> 
> I think the ability damage approach works just fine with the illithid symbionts, so I'm happy to support that method.




I do prefer a HP penalty (then a Con penalty), but might go along with Con damage if the costs balanced.

At "full power" of one spell from 1st to 5th level an equivalent collection of _pearls of power_ would cost 55,000 gp. It also gives SR (at some level). That suggests its worth at least six times more than a 10,800 gp item of 1/day _lesser restoration_.

Also, having it do 1 Con/spell level is also problematic because it _requires_ the wearer to have magical healing to avoid death from cumulative Con damage. The original appears to drain life energy at the same rate its host recovers it, so their hit points remain static.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2011)

Lesser restoration isn't going to cover all the Con loss from getting up to a 5th level spell, just a 2nd level and 2 points of SR at best, though I do see your point about not recovering the Con damage fast enough.  

How about this?  1 pt Con drain per level of spell (or SR maybe) granted (we can haggle over the amount), which happens once (maybe can be increased if the host wants to unlock more power).  If the drain is reversed by magic, the turban doesn't grant the abilities any more (and if all is reversed, may die from lack of nutrition).


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Lesser restoration isn't going to cover all the Con loss from getting up to a 5th level spell, just a 2nd level and 2 points of SR at best, though I do see your point about not recovering the Con damage fast enough.




Well we haven't decided for sure how much Con damage the turban imposes, or how much SR it provides for that matter. Secondly, if it costs more than an average of 2.5 Con per day, it just means it needs multiple items of _lesser restoration_. If its 5 Con/day it will want two 1/day items.

Furthermore, if the host can easily take off the turban, only wearing it when they want to go adventuring or the like, they could probably get away with a _wand of lesser restoration_ or the like.

Finally, investing XP in magic items is well known to have a "positive feedback" effect - with the items allowing their owner to gain XP faster than they cost them to manufacture.



freyar said:


> How about this?  1 pt Con drain per level of spell (or SR maybe) granted (we can haggle over the amount), which happens once (maybe can be increased if the host wants to unlock more power).  If the drain is reversed by magic, the turban doesn't grant the abilities any more (and if all is reversed, may die from lack of nutrition).




The above seems functionally equivalent to a Con penalty, only more fiddly, so why not just go for the penalty?

Oh, and didn't the original monster's description say a Vizier's Turban _couldn't_ die from starvation? We'd better include that in its writeup somewhere.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2011)

freyar said:
			
		

> How about this? 1 pt Con drain per level of spell (or SR maybe) granted (we can haggle over the amount), which happens once (maybe can be increased if the host wants to unlock more power). If the drain is reversed by magic, the turban doesn't grant the abilities any more (and if all is reversed, may die from lack of nutrition).




This seems closest to the original.

Another thought...

Restoration spells allow spell resistance.  A vizier's turban would probably never willingly lower its spell resistance just so its host could heal himself.  If we forced any attempts to heal the Con damage to go through the turban's SR...


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2011)

I'm not particularly opposed to a Con penalty, though a penalty doesn't feel like something parasitic quite.  I guess I just don't like the hp penalty.

Why don't we settle this once we have an idea of the benefits?  Then we can get comfortable with what's a reasonable price.


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> Restoration spells allow spell resistance.  A vizier's turban would probably never willingly lower its spell resistance just so its host could heal himself.  If we forced any attempts to heal the Con damage to go through the turban's SR...




What, and deliberately endanger its host's life? That seems a poor survival strategy for a symbiote.


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm not particularly opposed to a Con penalty, though a penalty doesn't feel like something parasitic quite.  I guess I just don't like the hp penalty.
> 
> Why don't we settle this once we have an idea of the benefits?  Then we can get comfortable with what's a reasonable price.




Sure.

Following the original, the benefits are split into 10 ranks. Spell resistance of 10+ranks? A bonus spell every odd rank (or even rank?), ranging from a 1st level spell to a 5th level spell.


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2011)

That much spell resistance seems too much compared to the bonus spells.  How about SR=ranks/2?


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## Number 6 (Sep 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> That much spell resistance seems too much compared to the bonus spells.  How about SR=ranks/2?



A Wizard that can cast a 5th-Level spell is a 9th-Level caster or higher.  Assuming this 9th-Level Wizard would be up against an opponent of a comparable spellcasting level... he can beat a SR of 20 with a roll of 12.

If we go by half ranks then you have a 9th-Level caster then you've got a SR of 15 (base SR of 10 plus ranks/2), and a comparable spellcasting opponent could beat that on a caster roll of 6.  That seems too small to bother with.

With that said, I'm willing to believe I've messed up the basics of Spell Resistance.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2011)

No, that seems right.  I had the feeling that magic items that grant small amounts of spell resistance are quite costly, but the only one I see grants SR 21.  (Though it's worth 90000 gp!)  I don't know, making a caster roll a 6+ is still successful spell resistance 25% of the time.  That's worth quite a bit probably.


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> A Wizard that can cast a 5th-Level spell is a 9th-Level caster or higher.  Assuming this 9th-Level Wizard would be up against an opponent of a comparable spellcasting level... he can beat a SR of 20 with a roll of 12.
> 
> If we go by half ranks then you have a 9th-Level caster then you've got a SR of 15 (base SR of 10 plus ranks/2), and a comparable spellcasting opponent could beat that on a caster roll of 6.  That seems too small to bother with.
> 
> With that said, I'm willing to believe I've messed up the basics of Spell Resistance.




A target number of 12 does seem a little high. I'd keep it at +ranks though, to give the SR a consistent relationship with the host's likely caster level.

So, I'd rather lower the base number. 6+ranks or 8+ranks.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2011)

6+ seems reasonable.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> 6+ seems reasonable.




I can go for that.


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2011)

Yes, that's fine.  It's extremely valuable for a low-level character, though.  So, does someone have the time to write something up about the penalties and benefits?


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, that's fine.  It's extremely valuable for a low-level character, though.  So, does someone have the time to write something up about the penalties and benefits?




well we can start roughing something out at least.

How's this for a start?

*"Empower Host" (Su):* A vizier's turban can boost its hosts magical ability. These benefits are divided into 10 ranks, when a host first bonds with the turban they gain its 1st rank benefits. The host increases the benefits by 1 rank whenever it (gains a level in a spellcaster class?) or (sacrifices life-force to the vizier's turban to strengthen the bond, this costs 1000 XP per (current) rank of benefits, plus the host takes 1d4+ranks Con damage from the strain). A vizier's turban can not grant a benefit rank higher than the arcane spellcasting level of its host.

The vizier's turban grants its host a spell resistance equal to 6 plus its benefit rank. In addition, the host gains a bonus arcane spell at each even rank, of a level equal to half the rank (e.g. a 1st level spell at rank 2, 2nd level at rank 4, 3rd level at rank 6, 4th level at rank 8 and 5th level at rank 10). If the host is unable to cast spells of that level, they can use the bonus spell to cast a lower-level spell with metamagic feats that add up to the bonus spell level.

The vizier's turban feeds off its host life-force to power these benefits, as long as the host wears the turban (plus X days after removing if), the host suffers penalties of XXXX.


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2011)

Hmm, so they take Con damage to gain the benefit and some additional constant penalty?  Could work...


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## Cleon (Oct 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, so they take Con damage to gain the benefit and some additional constant penalty?  Could work...




So, shall we figure out the Xs?


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2011)

Uh, sure.  Let's figure out the stuff in parentheses about increasing ranks.  Not sure I like an XP cost plus Con damage.  Hmmm.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Uh, sure.  Let's figure out the stuff in parentheses about increasing ranks.  Not sure I like an XP cost plus Con damage.  Hmmm.




The "normal" advancement of 1 rank per caster level advancement is free, remember. I fancied having a means for a mid-to-high host to attune a turban within a level or two, rather than having to wait 10 caster levels to get a 10-rank connection.

I wanted the cost to be something non-trivial, and XP plus Con seemed a good solution. Do you favour Experience over Constitution for accelerated turban bonding, or vica versa?

Now there's a sentence you don't see very often!


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2011)

XP seems to fit in with magic item construction, and it's already a significant chunk of XP.  I'd stick with that.  But let's ask Shade what he thinks about accelerated turban bonding?


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> XP seems to fit in with magic item construction, and it's already a significant chunk of XP.  I'd stick with that.  But let's ask Shade what he thinks about accelerated turban bonding?




If forced to limit myself to one or the other I'd go for the XP.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2011)

Oh, Shade?


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Oh, Shade?




That's an eery silence...


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That's an eery silence...




BOO!  

The accelerated bonding is fine.


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> BOO!
> 
> The accelerated bonding is fine.




What about the cost question - Con damage, XP, or both?


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2011)

Indeed, we're on tenterhooks here!


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## Cleon (Oct 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Indeed, we're on tenterhooks here!




I'm not, them tenterhooks are painful.


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2011)

Hmm, could we just go with XP while we wait for Shade to weigh in?


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, could we just go with XP while we wait for Shade to weigh in?




I'd be willing to humour a revised draft, so feel free.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2011)

"Empower Host" (Su): A vizier's turban can boost its hosts magical ability. These benefits are divided into 10 ranks, when a host first bonds with the turban they gain its 1st rank benefits. The host increases the benefits by 1 rank whenever it (gains a level in a spellcaster class?) or (sacrifices life-force to the vizier's turban to strengthen the bond, this costs 1000 XP per (current) rank of benefits). A vizier's turban can not grant a benefit rank higher than the arcane spellcasting level of its host.

The vizier's turban grants its host a spell resistance equal to 6 plus its benefit rank. In addition, the host gains a bonus arcane spell at each even rank, of a level equal to half the rank (e.g. a 1st level spell at rank 2, 2nd level at rank 4, etc). If the host is unable to cast spells of that level, they can use the bonus spell to cast a lower-level spell with metamagic feats that add up to the bonus spell level.

The vizier's turban feeds off its host life-force to power these benefits, as long as the host wears the turban (plus X days after removing if), the host suffers penalties of XXXX.


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> "Empower Host" (Su): A vizier's turban can boost its hosts magical ability. These benefits are divided into 10 ranks, when a host first bonds with the turban they gain its 1st rank benefits. The host increases the benefits by 1 rank whenever it (gains a level in a spellcaster class?) or (sacrifices life-force to the vizier's turban to strengthen the bond, this costs 1000 XP per (current) rank of benefits). A vizier's turban can not grant a benefit rank higher than the arcane spellcasting level of its host.
> 
> The vizier's turban grants its host a spell resistance equal to 6 plus its benefit rank. In addition, the host gains a bonus arcane spell at each even rank, of a level equal to half the rank (e.g. a 1st level spell at rank 2, 2nd level at rank 4, etc). If the host is unable to cast spells of that level, they can use the bonus spell to cast a lower-level spell with metamagic feats that add up to the bonus spell level.
> 
> The vizier's turban feeds off its host life-force to power these benefits, as long as the host wears the turban (plus X days after removing if), the host suffers penalties of XXXX.




Looks pretty good. Do you think 1000 XP per rank is OK for the cost?

Constitution penalty for the cost?

As for the duration of the penalty, maybe rank or rank/2 in days?


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2011)

Probably.  So, it works like advancement.  That should be ok.

Duration of rank days works.  What do you think about the penalty?  -1 Con per 2 ranks?


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## Cleon (Oct 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> Probably.  So, it works like advancement.  That should be ok.
> 
> Duration of rank days works.  What do you think about the penalty?  -1 Con per 2 ranks?




I'm leaning towards a flat -2 Con regardless of the ranks.


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2011)

I'd think the penalty should slowly get worse, though I guess the hp penalty of a Con penalty would since you'd usually go up in HD with higher ranks.  Hmmm.  I'm a little ambivalent. See if you can convince me.


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd think the penalty should slowly get worse, though I guess the hp penalty of a Con penalty would since you'd usually go up in HD with higher ranks.  Hmmm.  I'm a little ambivalent. See if you can convince me.




Look into my eyes ... you are feeling sleepy ... Cleon is right about this, like he is right about everything ...

Do you feel convinced yet? 

Basically, if we have it gradually get worse there's a good chance the penalty will either not amount to anything (e.g. -1 when it has Con 13), or it makes no difference with the previous rank (e.g. if it has Con 14 a -2 and a -3 Con penalty are effectively the same as far as its Con bonus goes). So, we need to have the Con penalty (or penalties) be an even number to prevent "mini-maxing" as is the standard 3E approach.

I suppose we could go -2 Con for ranks 1 to X, -4 Con for ranks X+1 to 10. (-2 for 1-7 ranks and -4 for 8-10 ranks?)


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2011)

Yeah, I know about the even ranks business, just wanted it to feel a little smoother.  But if you like -2 for 1-7 ranks and -4 for 8-10 ranks, that's ok.  Heck, could even do -0 for 1-2 or 3 ranks if you like.


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I know about the even ranks business, just wanted it to feel a little smoother.  But if you like -2 for 1-7 ranks and -4 for 8-10 ranks, that's ok.  Heck, could even do -0 for 1-2 or 3 ranks if you like.




Yes, I was initially in favor of a smoother progression too, but went off the idea.

I suppose we could go for a -0/-2/-4 Con penalty for 1-3/4-7/8-10 ranks, but don't much like the idea of giving them a "free" benefit for the first three ranks.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2011)

Why not just forget matching to 1 per two ranks and just go with -2 for 1 to 5 ranks, -4 for 6 to 10?


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## Cleon (Nov 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> Why not just forget matching to 1 per two ranks and just go with -2 for 1 to 5 ranks, -4 for 6 to 10?




Well, it just seemed better to have the cost increase match up with 4th level spells rather than 3rd, hence rank 8 (since that's the CL a sorcerer gets 4th level spells at).

We could split the difference and go for 1-6 / 7-10 level if you like - the "Wizard option", if you will.


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2011)

Sure, works for me.  Let's just knock these out.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sure, works for me.  Let's just knock these out.




Seems we're agreed, then.


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2011)

Wiz option it is.  What do these need next?


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## Cleon (Nov 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Wiz option it is.




Putting it all together it should look something like this. Does that meet your approval?

*Empower Host (Su):* A vizier's turban  can boost a living host's magical abilities. These benefits are divided into 10  ranks. When a host first bonds with the turban they gain its 1st rank  benefits. The host increases the benefits by 1 rank whenever it gains a  level in a spellcaster class or sacrifices life-force to the  vizier's turban to strengthen the bond, this sacrifice costs 1000 XP per (current)  rank of benefits. A vizier's turban can not grant a rank  higher than the arcane spellcasting level of its host.

The vizier's turban grants its host a spell resistance equal to 6 plus  its benefit rank. In addition, the host gains a bonus arcane spell at  each even rank, of a level equal to half the rank (e.g. a 1st level  spell at rank 2, 2nd level at rank 4, etc). If the host is unable to  cast spells of that level, they can use the bonus spell to cast a  lower-level spell with metamagic feats that add up to the bonus spell  level.

The vizier's turban feeds off its host life-force to power these  benefits, imposing a penalty is -2 Con if the turban grants 1 to 6 benefit ranks and -4 Con for 7 to 10 ranks. The penalty lasts as long as the host wears the turban, if the turban is removed the penalty lingers for 1 day per rank benefit. A vizier's turban can not empower a host (or feed of their Con) if the host is immune to Constitution damage.



freyar said:


> What do these need next?




They original monster could heal a host, but at a permanent cost of HP from their host. What (if anything) should we do to represent that?


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2011)

Yes, that seems fine.

Hmm, the original has


> If the vizier’s turban has more than 1 hit point left at any time that its host wizard is badly injured (i.e., reduced to half or less of his hit points total), it can return all but 1 of its hit points to its host. These regained hit points function just as if a healing spell had been used on the wizard and had restored that many hit points. Once the wizard is restored to full hit points, he or she must return these hit points to the symbiote. One hit point is always lost permanently in this exchange, reducing the wizard’s total by 1, so this exchange is not made frivolously. Furthermore, returning the hit points to his or her symbiote wounds the wizard for that many points of damage – damage that can only be healed magically. The 1 hit point lost in this exchange cannot be restored by any means short of a wish.



That's quite fiddly and seems like it has to do with temporarily reversing the penalty for using the ranks.  So, maybe something like turning off the Con penalty for some price?


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's quite fiddly and seems like it has to do with temporarily reversing the penalty for using the ranks.  So, maybe something like turning off the Con penalty for some price?




Sweet merciful aberrant ancestors YES!   This thing is already among the fiddliest of the fiddlies.


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## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, that seems fine.
> 
> Hmm, the original has
> 
> That's quite fiddly and seems like it has to do with temporarily reversing the penalty for using the ranks.  So, maybe something like turning off the Con penalty for some price?




I'd rather it just provide hit points healing with a daily limit, like a Paladin Lay on Hands, but with a cost of somekind.

Experience points I suppose, but it ought to be pretty expensive compared to standard healing items like potions or wands.


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2011)

What about temporary hp at the cost of a day-long negative level when the temp hp wear off?


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## Cleon (Nov 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> What about temporary hp at the cost of a day-long negative level when the temp hp wear off?




I would like it to be true healing rather than temporary hit points, but I like the idea of the temporary negative levels. I'd allow it to be cumulative. (i.e. it can heal a host twice, but the host is -2 levels, recovering 1 level per day).

Although I'd be happy to allow "excess healing" to become temporary hit points.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2011)

This is a good plan, including excess as temporary.  The only question is how much healing?  The original returns the hp it borrows from the host, but it doesn't have its own HD to begin with.  What do you think?  Do we need to figure out how this thing gets hp?


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## Cleon (Nov 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> This is a good plan, including excess as temporary.  The only question is how much healing?  The original returns the hp it borrows from the host, but it doesn't have its own HD to begin with.  What do you think?  Do we need to figure out how this thing gets hp?




Ugh, I have an ill-boding that this is going to take a long time to agree on.

I suppose we could let it take Con damage or temporary negative levels itself when it heals a host.

Do we want it to gain HD as it gains ranks? Presumably minimum HD = rank. While I guess it makes sense that it requires a more powerful (i.e. higher HD) turban to offer more potent benefits, can we be bothered with it?


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2011)

I'd be happy with just assigning it some number of HD and being done with it.  We can give it some penalty when healing the host if we like.  You know, we don't have even a basic write-up for these.  Would it help to get a basic statblock written down?


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## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd be happy with just assigning it some number of HD and being done with it.  We can give it some penalty when healing the host if we like.  You know, we don't have even a basic write-up for these.  Would it help to get a basic statblock written down?




I'm thinking it ought to have HD connected to its rank in some fashion. Maybe have its HP/HD be based on its linked caster in a similar fashion to a familiar?

Oh, and it is well past time we started a stat block.

What type did we decide on in the end? Was it Construct?


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2011)

Are you trying to pull something over on me?   Go read post 217, it's an Aberration. 

Maybe we could do the HD like a familiar.  But I don't recall other symbionts doing that.


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Are you trying to pull something over on me?   Go read post 217, it's an Aberration.




I was just too lazy to check. 



freyar said:


> Maybe we could do the HD like a familiar.  But I don't recall other symbionts doing that.




Well regardless, I think it should at least get more HD when it becomes higher rank. That's similar to how it works in the original, and linking higher ranking bonuses to a higher HD turban would make sense.


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2011)

What if we just say that these can only be used if they are the familiar?  That takes care of the HD, right?


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> What if we just say that these can only be used if they are the familiar?  That takes care of the HD, right?




Didn't someone object to that idea? I vaguely remember us discussing it.

Anyhow, I wouldn't mind doing both - HD increase as it gains in rank and "minimum effective HD = host's caster level".


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2011)

I think we decided that they wouldn't be familiars, but that the HD would work like familiar HD.  Check posts 213/214.  No one seemed to object.  I'm not sure I want it to get HD from both the ranks and the host; seems like too many.


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## Cleon (Nov 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think we decided that they wouldn't be familiars, but that the HD would work like familiar HD.  Check posts 213/214.  No one seemed to object.  I'm not sure I want it to get HD from both the ranks and the host; seems like too many.




If we're using the familiar approach it wouldn't get actual HD from the host, just effective HD "for the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice", such as how a _sleep_ or _holy word_ spell will affect it. That's not too awful.


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## freyar (Nov 28, 2011)

But the hp = 1/2 master's hp, right?  Then we just give it 1/2 or 1 HD, which doesn't matter for hp or "effective HD" unless it's unbonded.


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2011)

freyar said:


> But the hp = 1/2 master's hp, right?  Then we just give it 1/2 or 1 HD, which doesn't matter for hp or "effective HD" unless it's unbonded.




Well, the original version only had 1-10 hit points (1 hp/rank) with no HD listed, which is a better match to a "low HD version", so I can go along with that. Just give it a single Hit Dice, I guess.

Hmm, although there is something tempting about a high-HD turban on a 1st level wizard, so the hat's the real power in the relationship. That doesn't fit the flavour text though, which says a vizier's turban never disagrees with its wearer unless asked for its opinion.

Maybe those are elite character Vizier's Turbans with character levels in sorcerer or psion?


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, I guess advancement on these will be "special" due to the whole familiar thing...   But I'm not quite sure about character levels. 

Ok, let's give it 1HD but familiar hp.  Just so it can survive area attacks and such.  Agreed?


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, I guess advancement on these will be "special" due to the whole familiar thing...   But I'm not quite sure about character levels.
> 
> Ok, let's give it 1HD but familiar hp.  Just so it can survive area attacks and such.  Agreed?




I can agree on 1 HD and familiar hp and "effective HD", if only so we can argue about something else.


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2011)

Put up a working draft, and we'll start arguing again.


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## Cleon (Dec 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> Put up a working draft, and we'll start arguing again.




I keep on thinking we've already got one, this conversion has been going on so long.

Oh well, might as well start one - I've got a few things I want to do first, though...


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## Cleon (Dec 2, 2011)

*Vizier's Turban Working Draft*

*Vizier's Turban*
Tiny Aberration
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+?? (?? hp)
*Initiative:* ??
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square)
*Armor Class:* ?? (-2 size, +? Dex), touch ??, flat-footed ??
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/+??
*Attack:* —
*Full Attack:* —
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Amorphous, darkvision 60 ft.?, empower host, heal host, spell resistance
*Saves:* Fort +??, Ref +??, Will +??
*Abilities:* Str ??, Dex ??, Con ??, Int 17??, Wis ??, Cha ??
*Skills:* ??
*Feats:* 1
*Environment:* Any land
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* ??
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Any [as host??]
*Advancement:* ????
*Level Adjustment:* —

_Description._

Background.

*COMBAT*

Tactics.

*Amorphous (Ex):* A vizier's turban is not subject to critical hits. It cannot be flanked.

*Empower Host (Su):* A vizier's turban  can boost a living  host's magical abilities. These benefits are divided into 10  ranks.  When a host first bonds with the turban they gain its 1st rank   benefits. The host increases the benefits by 1 rank whenever it gains a   level in a spellcaster class or sacrifices life-force to the  vizier's  turban to strengthen the bond, this sacrifice costs 1000 XP per  (current)  rank of benefits. A vizier's turban can not grant a rank   higher than the arcane spellcasting level of its host.

The vizier's turban grants its host a spell resistance equal to 6 plus   its benefit rank. In addition, the host gains a bonus arcane spell at   each even rank, of a level equal to half the rank (e.g. a 1st level   spell at rank 2, 2nd level at rank 4, etc). If the host is unable to   cast spells of that level, they can use the bonus spell to cast a   lower-level spell with metamagic feats that add up to the bonus spell   level.

The vizier's turban feeds off its host life-force to power these   benefits, imposing a penalty is -2 Con if the turban grants 1 to 6  benefit ranks and -4 Con for 7 to 10 ranks. The penalty lasts as long as  the host wears the turban, if the turban is removed the penalty lingers  for 1 day per rank benefit. A vizier's turban can not empower a host  (or feed of their Con) if the host is immune to Constitution damage.

*Heal Host (Su):* A vizier's turban with at least 2 ranks in its host bond (see Empower Host, above) can draw upon it's host's lifeforce to heal its host's wounds. The host is healed of X hit points, with any excess healing becoming temporary hit points, and gains 1 temporary negative level. Note that the X healing includes the normal hit point loss from the negative level. A vizier's turban can heal its host multiple times, but the number of negative levels it imposes can not match or exceed the host's current level or the number of ranks in the turban's host bond. The host recovers from the temporary negative levels at a rate of 1 level every 24 hours.

*Skills:* ?


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2011)

Hmmm, isn't it supposed to heal the host using its own lifeforce, not the host's?  I'd say that the turban gets the negative level for the time (say an hour) that the host gets the temp hp, then transfers the negative level to the host.  Or else just that the negative level starts when the clock runs out on the temp hp, to make things a little simpler.

I'd say Str 1, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 16 or so.  Int is given as genius, which is why I've gone for the fairly high mental scores, but I'm willing to drop Wis and Cha some.


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## Cleon (Dec 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, isn't it supposed to heal the host using its own lifeforce, not the host's?  I'd say that the turban gets the negative level for the time (say an hour) that the host gets the temp hp, then transfers the negative level to the host.  Or else just that the negative level starts when the clock runs out on the temp hp, to make things a little simpler.




Problem is, the turban only has 1 Hit Dice, so even a single negative level should kill it.



freyar said:


> I'd say Str 1, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 16 or so.  Int is given as genius, which is why I've gone for the fairly high mental scores, but I'm willing to drop Wis and Cha some.




I'd drop the Charisma since it seems to have a pretty weak personality, although I'm OK with the Wisdom as is.


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2011)

Hmmm, doesn't the master's CL determine its effective HD for the purpose of negative level's killing it?  But anyway, since we're reducing the penalty on the host (ie, no permanent hp loss), what if we make the healing all temporary hp?  So something like this:

Heal Host (Su): A vizier's turban with at least 2 ranks in its host bond (see Empower Host, above) can draw upon it's host's lifeforce to heal its host's wounds. The host gains X temporary hit points, which remain for one hour.  At the end of that hour, the host gains a negative level.  A vizier's turban can heal its host multiple times, but the number of negative levels it imposes can not match or exceed the host's current level or the number of ranks in the turban's host bond. The host recovers from the negative levels at a rate of 1 level every 24 hours without needing to make a save.


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## Cleon (Dec 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, doesn't the master's CL determine its effective HD for the purpose of negative level's killing it?  But anyway, since we're reducing the penalty on the host (ie, no permanent hp loss), what if we make the healing all temporary hp?  So something like this:




Hmm, good point.


The familiar entry says "For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the  master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is  higher." 

That implies the HD count against negative levels, so we have plenty of space for a "temporary negative level" version of healing.

Hmm... I'm starting to come around to the idea.



freyar said:


> Heal Host (Su): A vizier's turban with at least 2 ranks in its host bond (see Empower Host, above) can draw upon it's host's lifeforce to heal its host's wounds. The host gains X temporary hit points, which remain for one hour.  At the end of that hour, the host gains a negative level.  A vizier's turban can heal its host multiple times, but the number of negative levels it imposes can not match or exceed the host's current level or the number of ranks in the turban's host bond. The host recovers from the negative levels at a rate of 1 level every 24 hours without needing to make a save.




I still say it should be true healing, not just temporary hit points. The original text specifically says "These regained hit points function just as if a healing spell had been used on the wizard and had restored that many hit points".

If we're using negative levels, I suppose we should use the 5 hps per level standard exchange rate.


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2011)

First question: do we still want a cost to the turban?

The original text also says that the cost of healing is *permanent* hp loss.  So almost like a permanent negative level.  Here are the options I see:

1) regular healing, something like 5 hp or 1d8 hp, temporary negative levels w/no save to remove
2) regular healing as #1 but with normal negative levels (save to remove after 24 hrs, else become permanent)
3) temp hp, temp negative levels.

I think I prefer #2 or #3.  And I probably like 1d8 hp rather than 5hp, but I can be persuaded otherwise.


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> First question: do we still want a cost to the turban?
> 
> The original text also says that the cost of healing is *permanent* hp loss.  So almost like a permanent negative level.  Here are the options I see:
> 
> ...




Don't like the permanent negative level - it's already a very poor return for healing.

I'm still set on true healing, temp negative levels.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2011)

I'll go there, but only if it stops at the normal hp max of the caster (ie, no temp hp beyond that).  The original monster is very clear that "turban healing" has a high cost, so I definitely don't want to make it too good.


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## Cleon (Dec 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'll go there, but only if it stops at the normal hp max of the caster (ie, no temp hp beyond that).  The original monster is very clear that "turban healing" has a high cost, so I definitely don't want to make it too good.




Sure, I'd be happy with that. The excess healing as temporary hit points was a bit of a kludge.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2011)

Wow!  You guys are STILL on this ability?   

This monster turned out to be a %*#&$! nightmare!


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## Cleon (Dec 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Wow!  You guys are STILL on this ability?
> 
> This monster turned out to be a %*#&$! nightmare!




Oh, did I mention we're going to make the sample creature wearing a Vizier's Turban a False Keraptis Transient Golem Vampire Wizard/Druid Mystic Theurge?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Wow!  You guys are STILL on this ability?
> 
> This monster turned out to be a %*#&$! nightmare!




We're just arguing a bunch, but I'm sure you could help. 



Cleon said:


> Oh, did I mention we're going to make the sample creature wearing a Vizier's Turban a False Keraptis Transient Golem Vampire Wizard/Druid Mystic Theurge?




Thank goodness we don't need a sample.

Ok, though I don't prefer it, can we agree on 1d8 healing (a la cure light wounds), one negative level that wears off after 24 hours automatically?  Any penalty on the turban?


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## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> We're just arguing a bunch, but I'm sure you could help.




We don't need help arguing, we're good enough at it already!



freyar said:


> Thank goodness we don't need a sample.




Sometimes you're no fun at all... 



freyar said:


> Ok, though I don't prefer it, can we agree on 1d8 healing (a la cure light wounds), one negative level that wears off after 24 hours automatically?  Any penalty on the turban?




Let's leave off any penalty to the turban. The original didn't penalize the turban did it?

Do we give the "_cure light wounds_" something like the +1 hp / CL the actual spell does. I would.

How's this:

*Heal Host (Su):* A vizier's turban with at least 2 ranks in its  host bond (see Empower Host, above) can draw upon it's host's lifeforce  to heal its host's wounds. The host is healed of 1d8 hit points plus 1 hit point per rank in the turban's host bond, but gains 1 temporary  negative level. Note that the host does not suffer the normal -5 hit point penalty from the negative level (it's included in the healing). A vizier's turban can use heal host  multiple times, but the number of negative levels it imposes must be lower than the host's current level or the turban's host bond rank. The host recovers these temporary negative levels  at a rate of 1 level every 24 hours.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2011)

Well, in the original text, the turban loses hp to the host, only getting them returned once the host is back to full hp.

I just don't like having to put the bit about removing the hp penalty from the negative level.  I think I'd prefer that the negative level only "kicks in" sometime later.  The idea in the original monster is that the turban provides emergency healing, but it has to be paid back.  How about this?

Heal Host (Su): A vizier's turban with at least 2 ranks in its host bond (see Empower Host, above) can draw upon it's host's lifeforce to heal its host's wounds. The host is healed of 1d8 hit points plus 1 hit point per rank in the turban's host bond.  One hour later, the host gains a negative level.  A vizier's turban can use heal host multiple times, but the number of negative levels it imposes must be lower than the host's current level or the turban's host bond rank. The host recovers these temporary negative levels at a rate of 1 level every 24 hours.


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## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, in the original text, the turban loses hp to the host, only getting them returned once the host is back to full hp.
> 
> I just don't like having to put the bit about removing the hp penalty  from the negative level.  I think I'd prefer that the negative level  only "kicks in" sometime later.  The idea in the original monster is  that the turban provides emergency healing, but it has to be paid back.   How about this?
> 
> Heal Host (Su): A vizier's turban with at least 2 ranks in its host bond  (see Empower Host, above) can draw upon it's host's lifeforce to heal  its host's wounds. The host is healed of 1d8 hit points plus 1 hit point  per rank in the turban's host bond.  One hour later, the host gains a  negative level.  A vizier's turban can use heal host multiple times, but  the number of negative levels it imposes must be lower than the host's  current level or the turban's host bond rank. The host recovers these  temporary negative levels at a rate of 1 level every 24 hours.




Hmm, come to think of it, if we're giving the turban boosted hit points equal to a familiar (= half host's hp), then it would have enough hit points for us to do a "transfer hp" type healing.

To be honest, I'm going against the idea of using negative levels. Besides from being very fiddly to keep track of, the original turban didn't lower its host's level.

Let's recheck the original text...



			
				Vizier's Turban said:
			
		

> If the vizier’s turban has more than 1 hit point left at any time that its host wizard is badly injured (i.e., reduced to half or less of his hit points total), it can return all but 1 of its hit points to its host. These regained hit points function just as if a healing spell had been used on the wizard and had restored that many hit points. Once the wizard is restored to full hit points, he or she must return these hit points to the symbiote. One hit point is always lost permanently in this exchange, reducing the wizard’s total by 1, so this exchange is not made frivolously. Furthermore, returning the hit points to his or her symbiote wounds the wizard for that many points of damage—damage that can only be healed magically. The 1 hit point lost in this exchange cannot be restored by any means short of a _wish_.




Hmm, so the cost is that the Wizard must repay the transferred hit points at the cost of damage that can only be healed naturally, plus a permanent cost of 1 hit point.

I still don't like the permanent HP cost, so I suggested an XP cost instead.

*Heal Host (Su):* In desperate circumstances, a vizier's turban can heal its host's wounds by transferring some of its own life force to its host. The turban sacrifices 1 hit point for every point of damage it heals, and it cannot reduce its own hit points to 1 or less when healing a host. The only way the turban can regain these sacrificed hit points is by the host returning them. The host can restore hit points to the turban at a 1:1 ratio by sacrificing X experience points per hit point damage they take. The damage a host takes restoring the turban's hit points can only be healed magically, no spell or supernatural agency can heal it. The host can restore as many hit points as they wish, but must restore at least 1 hit point every 24 hours. The host and turban are bonded together as long as the host "owes" the turban for healing. Until the debt is paid, the only way to remove the turban is to kill the host or destroy the turban. Destroying the turban does X damage to the host.


----------



## freyar (Dec 13, 2011)

Uggh, now we are getting farther apart.

The original turban didn't lower its host's XP, either, and you're already doing that for the bonding.  Hmmmm.  Besides, this gets fiddly, too, like the restriction that you can't drop XP below the minimum for current character level.  And the "debt bonding" seems a bit fiddly to me, too.  Negative levels are at least a standard mechanic.  We clearly need to think about this more.


----------



## Number 6 (Dec 13, 2011)

Perhaps this would be a good time to take a pause from the Vizier's Turban... if not to do a new monster, then to consider what's next on the agenda.


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> Perhaps this would be a good time to take a pause from the Vizier's Turban... if not to do a new monster, then to consider what's next on the agenda.




Next on the agenda for Al-Qadim or in general?


----------



## Number 6 (Dec 13, 2011)

The Al-Qadim monster agenda.
But only if you guys would benefit from a break.


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## Cleon (Dec 14, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> The Al-Qadim monster agenda.
> But only if you guys would benefit from a break.




Can't say I favour any Al-Qadim monster over the others, so I'm not particularly bothered which we do next.

...assuming we ever get to finish this Turban!


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## Number 6 (Dec 14, 2011)

Maybe I'm missing something, but what other monsters would we cover here?


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## Cleon (Dec 14, 2011)

Number 6 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but what other monsters would we cover here?




Well I believe there are some creatures from the MC 13 Al-Qadim Monstrous Compendium which haven't got official or Enworld conversions yet.

A quick compare suggests the Ammut, Black Cloud of Vengeance, some of the variant Camels, Hama, Living Idol, Pahari and Zin haven't got conversions.

The Zaratan has a 3.0 Enworld conversion which could be updated to 3.5.


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 14, 2011)

The zin is already in the Creature Catalog.  The zaratan is in _Arms and Equipment Guide._


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## Cleon (Dec 14, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> The zin is already in the Creature Catalog.  The zaratan is in _Arms and Equipment Guide._




Oh right, the Zin got listed under Naga in the CC so I didn't see it under "Z" when I glanced through the list.

Should have remembered the Zaratan already has official stats though.

So, any missing Al-Q creatures that appeal to anyone for conversion?


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 14, 2011)

The ammut and pahari.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

Well, as annoying as this turban is, I think we need to finish it first.  I can't imagine how much trouble it would be if we forgot everything we were doing on it and had to dig back through....

It didn't seem this bad to start with, but this is turning into Mossmutter.  What we need is for Shade or someone to come in here and break some ties and make decisions.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, as annoying as this turban is, I think we need to finish it first.  I can't imagine how much trouble it would be if we forgot everything we were doing on it and had to dig back through....
> 
> It didn't seem this bad to start with, but this is turning into Mossmutter.  What we need is for Shade or someone to come in here and break some ties and make decisions.




I'm afraid I cannot, because you guys took this thing down a path completely contrary to what I would have done.  

How about each person draws up their own Vizier's Turban, and we'll put it to a public vote for which one goes into the CC?


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

What would you have done?  Maybe we can all agree on that....

My suggestion is in post #307.


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> What would you have done?  Maybe we can all agree on that....
> 
> My suggestion is in post #307.




I'm OK with a negative level version that doesn't penalize hit points. It just seems counterintuitive to have a healing ability that causes hp loss.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2011)

My proposal has the "master" gain a negative level one hour later. I don't think that's so different than having to "pay back" hp.

But now I'm curious about what Shade would have done.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> My proposal has the "master" gain a negative level one hour later. I don't think that's so different than having to "pay back" hp.




There's a considerable difference. The master can pay back hit points at their convenient, and the loss of hit points doesn't make it less powerful in other respects. Negative levels reduce the master's powers across the board, are a nuisance to keep track off, and the hp loss could potentially kill the host.



freyar said:


> But now I'm curious about what Shade would have done.




You could always try asking The Shady One!


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2011)

The other nasty effects of the negative levels are to make up for not having a permanent hp "payment."

Well, Shade seems to have missed the hint so far.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> The other nasty effects of the negative levels are to make up for not having a permanent hp "payment."




Well I prefer an XP cost to the temporary negative levels.



freyar said:


> Well, Shade seems to have missed the hint so far.




Give it time...


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2011)

freyar said:
			
		

> Well, Shade seems to have missed the hint so far.






			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Give it time...




Here's where you began losing me upthread...



Shade said:


> I suppose the hp loss could work, although I'd favor this approach from other symbionts (replacing Int with Con in the example below):
> 
> Mind Feeding (Su): A cerebral hood survives by consuming its host's mental energy. This deals 1 point of Intelligence damage each day the hood remains attached. Ordinarily, the host regains 1 point of lost Intelligence each night, just before the cerebral hood drains a new point, keeping the host at an equilibrium point of -1 to its Intelligence. When the cerebral hood uses its mind blast, however, it deals extra Intelligence damage, so overuse of that special attack can eventually destroy the host's mind.
> 
> Still, if the majority prefers hp loss, I'll deal with it.




I'd have kept 'em much, much, MUCH, *MUCH*, MUCH simpler like the other symbionts.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> Here's where you began losing me upthread...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have kept 'em much, much, MUCH, *MUCH*, MUCH simpler like the other symbionts.




But we'd miss out on all these wonderful arguments if we kept it simple. 

If I remember rightly, we did discuss making the cost of healing Con damage. I certainly prefer that to temporary negative levels.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2011)

Shade's talking about going all the way back to the cost of bonding, not healing.  I seem to recall wanting to stick to daily Con damage, too....


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Shade's talking about going all the way back to the cost of bonding, not healing.  I seem to recall wanting to stick to daily Con damage, too....




Do we really want to have that argument all over again?


----------



## freyar (Dec 24, 2011)

Hey, we need to get Shade on board somewhere....


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## Cleon (Dec 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hey, we need to get Shade on board somewhere....




Wherever he is...


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Wherever he is...




I think a Vizier's Turban got him.  

Alright, here's my take on the VT...

*Vizier's Turban*
Tiny Aberration (Symbiont)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-10
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Symbiotic spellcasting 
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., spell resistance 10, symbiont traits, telepathy
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +5
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 16, Ego x
Skills: 6
Feats: 1
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1 (singly) or host +1 (when worn)
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: —

Symbiotic Spellcasting (Ex);  A creature with an attached vizier's turban can transfer up to 10 points of its Constitution to the vizier's turban each day.  For each point of Constitution transferred, the host gains 1 point of spell resistance and one additional spell level.  These spell levels can be used to cast additional spells.  Spontaneous spellcasters gain additional spell slots totaling a level equal to the sacrificed Constitution.  Spellcasters who must prepare their spells may memorize additional spells totaling a level equal to the sacrificed Constitution.  The spell levels may be split in any combination, but a single spell slot/prepared spell cannot exceed 5th-level.  A 0-level spell counts as a half-level for these purposes.  Thus, a sorcerer sacrificing 5 points of Constitution could gain a single 5th-level spell slot, a 4th-level and 1st-level spell slot, a 3rd-level and 2nd-level spell slot, and so forth.  A wizard transferring 5 points of Constitution to its attached turban could prepare an additonal 5th-level spell, a 4th-level and 1st-level spell, a 3rd-level and 2nd-level spell, and so forth.  

Transferred Constitution is not Constitution damage or drain, and thus cannot be restored by spells such as restoration or heal.  The Constitution immediately returns to the host 24 hours later, but cannot be regained in any other way, even if the attached vizier's turban is slain.

The transferred Constitution reduces the host's hit points, Fortitude save, and Constitution-based skill modifiers and save DCs.  Likewise, the vizier's turban gains an increase to its hit points, Fortitude save, and Constitution-based skill modifiers and save DCs.  

Telepathy (Su): A spellwurm can communicate telepathically with its host, if its host has a language.


I chose not to include the "transfer vitality back" bit, but if I were going to do so, I'd just modify the above ability to allow a vizier's turban to transfer back a number of Constitution points up to what was originally transferred, and require the spellcaster to sacrifice an equivalent number of spell levels to pay for it.


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## Cleon (Jan 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> I think a Vizier's Turban got him.




That'll learn him to put on strange hats...



Shade said:


> Alright, here's my take on the VT...
> 
> ...
> 
> Symbiotic Spellcasting (Ex);  A creature with an attached vizier's turban can transfer up to 10 points of its Constitution to the vizier's turban each day.  For each point of Constitution transferred, the host gains 1 point of spell resistance and one additional spell level.  These spell levels can be used to cast additional spells.  Spontaneous spellcasters gain additional spell slots totaling a level equal to the sacrificed Constitution.  Spellcasters who must prepare their spells may memorize additional spells totaling a level equal to the sacrificed Constitution.  The spell levels may be split in any combination, but a single spell slot/prepared spell cannot exceed 5th-level.  A 0-level spell counts as a half-level for these purposes.  Thus, a sorcerer sacrificing 5 points of Constitution could gain a single 5th-level spell slot, a 4th-level and 1st-level spell slot, a 3rd-level and 2nd-level spell slot, and so forth.  A wizard transferring 5 points of Constitution to its attached turban could prepare an additonal 5th-level spell, a 4th-level and 1st-level spell, a 3rd-level and 2nd-level spell, and so forth.




There's no caster level limit, so a 1st level sorcerer with a high Con could easily get 10 extra 1st-level spell slots. That doesn't seem right.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2012)

Brilliant!  Where were you when we started this monster????

I would include the healing as you suggest, but that's about it.  Change the "spellwurm" to a turban, too. 

EDIT: responding to Cleon's concern, just say that you can transfer a max of either your CL or 10 Con.

EDIT EDIT: I guess we also need to mention about damage done to the turban probably being shared by the host or something.


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## Cleon (Jan 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Brilliant!  Where were you when we started this monster????




Bah! Humbug!! I preferred our nicely elaborate version. 



freyar said:


> I would include the healing as you suggest, but that's about it.  Change the "spellwurm" to a turban, too.




That wouldn't necessarily cause the healing of any hit points, though. If a host with base Con 13 and 1 point of Transferred Constitution has that point returned, they'd go from Con 12 to Con 13, resulting in no overall change.

The standard solution is to use +2 steps in the Constitution Transfer so it always give a +1 change in the Con modifier, like we ended up with in the later drafts of Empower Host.

Where we including some reference to the permanent HP loss of the original. Maybe we could require the caster to make a Fort save to prevent a point of Constitution transfer being converted into Constitution drain?



freyar said:


> EDIT: responding to Cleon's concern, just say that you can transfer a max of either your CL or 10 Con.




That's what I assumed we'd end up with.



freyar said:


> EDIT EDIT: I guess we also need to mention about damage done to the turban probably being shared by the host or something.




Well the original text says "For all practical purposes, the vizier’s turban and its host function as a single being", so need we really bother?


----------



## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

Cleon said:


> That wouldn't necessarily cause the healing of any hit points, though. If a host with base Con 13 and 1 point of Transferred Constitution has that point returned, they'd go from Con 12 to Con 13, resulting in no overall change.
> 
> The standard solution is to use +2 steps in the Constitution Transfer so it always give a +1 change in the Con modifier, like we ended up with in the later drafts of Empower Host.




Well, if the host needs to, the turban can always transfer +2 points back, even if the minimum transfer is +1.  If you allow transfers of +1 Con, then a host with odd Con can get some healing from a return transfer even if the turban has only one rank.  I don't see a big problem.




> Where we including some reference to the permanent HP loss of the original. Maybe we could require the caster to make a Fort save to prevent a point of Constitution transfer being converted into Constitution drain?



You mean after returning it to the turban again?  I'm a little confused about that.



> Well the original text says "For all practical purposes, the vizier’s turban and its host function as a single being", so need we really bother?



This should really appear in our stats, sure.  I'd suggest plunking in some version of the FF "Symbiont Traits" section.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, if the host needs to, the turban can always transfer +2 points back, even if the minimum transfer is +1.  If you allow transfers of +1 Con, then a host with odd Con can get some healing from a return transfer even if the turban has only one rank.  I don't see a big problem.
> 
> You mean after returning it to the turban again?  I'm a little confused about that.




Well I was thinking the Host healing would cure hit points, not return the transferred Con. Then if the Fort save fails a point of transferred Con does not return after 24 hours, but becomes Con drain.

As for the odd Con problem, that obviously works both ways. e.g. If a host has Con 13 they don't lose a point of Con bonus doing a -1 transfer.



freyar said:


> This should really appear in our stats, sure.  I'd suggest plunking in some version of the FF "Symbiont Traits" section.




Would you care to write something up?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

Sounds like you'd prefer a separate ability for the healing, then.  How do you want to limit the healing?  Something like up to 1d8 per Con transfered, but then each of the Con you use for healing risks becoming Con drain?

But we can't require 2 Con transfers per spell level benefit; 20 Con for 10 spell levels would kill most casters.

As for the symbiont traits, I find we've used them for the peltast:

Symbiont Traits: While attached to a host, a symbiont acts on its host's turn each round, regardless of its own initiative modifier. It is not flat-footed unless its host is, and it is aware of any danger its host is aware of. If clearly visible, opponents can attack the symbiont instead of the host creature. This works the same way as attacking an object. The symbiont gains the benefit of the host's Dexterity modifier to AC instead of its own, and gains any deflection bonus to AC the host has as well. Its own size modifier and natural armor bonus apply. Attacking a symbiont instead of its host provokes an attack of opportunity from the host.

A symbiont never takes damage from attacks directed at the host. Like a worn magic item, a symbiont is usually unaffected by spells that damage the host, but if the host rolls a 1 on its saving throw, the symbiont is one of the "items" that can be affected by the spell. A symbiont uses its host's base saving throw bonuses if they are better than its own.

Any spell the host creature casts on itself automatically also affects the symbiont. Additionally, the host may cast a spell with a target of "You" on the symbiont instead of on itself. The symbiont may do likewise with any spell or spell-like ability it uses. The host and symbiont can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the host's or the symbiont's type. Spells targeted on the host by another spellcaster do not affect the symbiont, and vice versa.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sounds like you'd prefer a separate ability for the healing, then.  How do you want to limit the healing?  Something like up to 1d8 per Con transfered, but then each of the Con you use for healing risks becoming Con drain?




I was thinking healing equal to half the caster's level per spell-level/Con of healing would be easiest, since it most closely matches the hp bonus they'd get from the Con.



freyar said:


> But we can't require 2 Con transfers per spell level benefit; 20 Con for 10 spell levels would kill most casters.




Yes, I think we've had this discussion already, which is why our previous draft limited it to -2 Con or -4 Con.

Indeed, 1 Con per spell level seems too expensive for what you get, but if you're happy with it go ahead.

I think I'm going to have to come up with a Cleon Special as it is. 



freyar said:


> As for the symbiont traits, I find we've used them for the peltast:
> 
> Symbiont Traits: While attached to a host, a symbiont acts on its host's turn each round, regardless of its own initiative modifier. It is not flat-footed unless its host is, and it is aware of any danger its host is aware of. If clearly visible, opponents can attack the symbiont instead of the host creature. This works the same way as attacking an object. The symbiont gains the benefit of the host's Dexterity modifier to AC instead of its own, and gains any deflection bonus to AC the host has as well. Its own size modifier and natural armor bonus apply. Attacking a symbiont instead of its host provokes an attack of opportunity from the host.
> 
> ...




That'll probably do for a start. We were planning on recycling the Symbiont rules for them, when (if! ) we finally finished their other special abilities.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2012)

That hp total could work, though you'd probably have to round up instead of down or institute a "minimum 1" rule.

What if we convince Shade to go for 2 spell levels per Con?

Those are all the symbiont rules from the FF, I think.


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## Cleon (Jan 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> That hp total could work, though you'd probably have to round up instead of down or institute a "minimum 1" rule.
> 
> What if we convince Shade to go for 2 spell levels per Con?
> 
> Those are all the symbiont rules from the FF, I think.




I was going to go for the "minimum 1 hit point" solution. That seemed the best match to the RAW.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2012)

In that case, what about this?

Heal Host (Ex): In desparate situations, a vizier's turban can heal its host by returning some of the transfered Con.  For each point of Con transfered, the host can choose to sacrifice one spell level and point of SR to gain 1 hp per 2 HD of the host (minimum 1 hp).  However, the host must make a DC X Fort save for each point of Con used for healing; the transfered Con becomes permanent Con drain on a failed save.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> In that case, what about this?
> 
> Heal Host (Ex): In desparate situations, a vizier's turban can heal its host by returning some of the transfered Con.  For each point of Con transfered, the host can choose to sacrifice one spell level and point of SR to gain 1 hp per 2 HD of the host (minimum 1 hp).  However, the host must make a DC X Fort save for each point of Con used for healing; the transfered Con becomes permanent Con drain on a failed save.




I'd prefer "sacrificing" to "returning" since I think the point of Con should only return after the normal 24 hour transfer window (assuming the host made their Fort save).

Also, it should _*heal*_ hit points, not _*gain*_ them.

Something like:

*Heal Host (Ex):* In desperate situations, a vizier's turban can heal its  host by sacrificing some of the transferred Con.  For each point of Con sacrificed, the host can choose to sacrifice one spell level and point  of SR to heal 1 hp per 2 HD of the host (minimum 1 hp).  However, the  host must make a DC X Fort save for each point of Con used for healing;  the transferred Con becomes permanent Con drain on a failed save.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2012)

That looks good to me!

Are we actually ready for skills and feats?


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## Cleon (Jan 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> That looks good to me!
> 
> Are we actually ready for skills and feats?




Looks like it!

We haven't got much to go on regarding skills.

"It eagerly engages in philosophical discussions with its host if the wizard initiates the conversation"

Knowledge (religion)?

"Keenly curious, a vizier‘s turban is always happy to travel with its host to see new places and things. It is very observant, though it reacts to stimuli with a never-ending sense of wonder rather than logically. If it sees a lion charging its wizard, for instance, it does not warn the wizard but rather goggles at the wondrous creature rapidly approaching."

Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Listen and Spot? 

I doubt they have Knowledge (nature) if they don't know what a lion is! 

They are virtual masters of disguise since they look like strips of material when unwound and like scarves, turbans, or veils when posing. ...  Its sense of humor is such that it is amused by the antics wizards go through to locate it. Indeed, its attempts at disguise and camouflage may be a test to see if a particular wizard is clever enough to find it and therefore worthy to become its partner"

Disguise!

Put that together and we get...

*Skills:* Disguise, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Spot


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## Shade (Jan 18, 2012)

Wow...you did make progress!  

I'd like to work in some Knowledge (arcana), too, but otherwise the skills appeal.   I'd be satisfied with just stating Knowledge (any three) and leaving it up to the DM upon which areas they'd like the turban to philosophize.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 18, 2012)

Shade said:


> Wow...you did make progress!
> 
> I'd like to work in some Knowledge (arcana), too, but otherwise the skills appeal.   I'd be satisfied with just stating Knowledge (any three) and leaving it up to the DM upon which areas they'd like the turban to philosophize.




I thought about giving them Knowledge (arcana) but their writeup says...
_It has no opinions about what spells the wizard should study or which ones he or she should cast in a given situation, since it does not itself have any spellcasting talent. It does not understand and cannot read the spells which its wizard learns but instead derives a sense of satisfaction from feeling its wizard‘s emotional response to both learning and casting spells._​ Knowledge (any three) would work too. Wondered about that myself, but I enjoy fiddling with the details.


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## Shade (Jan 19, 2012)

That quoted passage suggests more a lack of Spellcraft than Arcana.

Let's go with (any three).


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## Cleon (Jan 19, 2012)

Shade said:


> That quoted passage suggests more a lack of Spellcraft than Arcana.
> 
> Let's go with (any three).




Works for me.


----------



## freyar (Jan 21, 2012)

I also agree that that passage means no Spellcraft rather than no Know (arcana).  I also like any three Knowledges.  

Alertnness might be just about the only sensible feat for these.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> I also agree that that passage means no Spellcraft rather than no Know (arcana).  I also like any three Knowledges.
> 
> Alertnness might be just about the only sensible feat for these.




Alertness is fine by me.


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2012)

I think these shouldn't really have a tactics section (I can't remember if symbionts usually do).  As for flavor and description, any ideas?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think these shouldn't really have a tactics section (I can't remember if symbionts usually do).  As for flavor and description, any ideas?




Well they don't have any attacks, so a tactics section would be a trifle superfluous.

What would you put in it? There is little strategic effectiveness in "refuses to offer advice but is willing to discuss philosophy".


----------



## Shade (Jan 24, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Well they don't have any attacks, so a tactics section would be a trifle superfluous.
> 
> What would you put in it? There is little strategic effectiveness in "refuses to offer advice but is willing to discuss philosophy".




Here's a sample from another symbiont with no attacks:

Fiendish familiars do not engage in combat, nor do they specifically aid their hosts in combat--although the enhancements they offer to spellcasting hosts can be significant in such situations.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> Here's a sample from another symbiont with no attacks:
> 
> Fiendish familiars do not engage in combat, nor do they specifically aid their hosts in combat--although the enhancements they offer to spellcasting hosts can be significant in such situations.




Just copying that over would do the job.


----------



## freyar (Jan 25, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Just copying that over would do the job.



Agreed.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Agreed.




It's nice that you're agreeable. 

So, are we just left wanting a description and background?


----------



## Shade (Jan 26, 2012)

Did we ever start a Working Draft/Homebrews since we "started over"?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 27, 2012)

Shade said:


> Did we ever start a Working Draft/Homebrews since we "started over"?




*You did*, yes.

It needs some updating now.


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2012)

But then it's nearly done.  Whew!


----------



## Cleon (Jan 29, 2012)

freyar said:


> But then it's nearly done.  Whew!




That'll never do! 

We'd better scrap the whole thing and start again from scratch.


----------



## Shade (Jan 31, 2012)

Added to Homebrews.  Did we ever determine the save DC for the Heal Host ability?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 1, 2012)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.  Did we ever determine the save DC for the Heal Host ability?




How about the old standby of DC 15?


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## freyar (Feb 2, 2012)

I'll agree to that.

Let's change the "spellwurm" to a "vizier's turban" under telepathy, too....


----------



## Shade (Feb 2, 2012)

Updated.

Since they are rumored to be created by genies, I thought we should let them understand one or more elemental languages.  If we just pick one, Auran seems the best fit.  Thoughts?   



> Although they can be found almost anywhere, it takes a keen eye and a desire to bond with one to locate a vizier’s turban. Even then, its rarity makes it unlikely that a wizard who is not spending every waking hour searching for one will find one. They are virtual masters of disguise since they look like strips of material when unwound and like scarves, turbans, or veils when posing.




This suggests a racial bonus to Disguise, plus a huge situational racial bonus to mimic cloth items.


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## Cleon (Feb 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Since they are rumored to be created by genies, I thought we should let them understand one or more elemental languages.  If we just pick one, Auran seems the best fit.  Thoughts?




With its genius intelligence it ought to be able to speak a bunch of languages.

How about the same as a Djinni - Auran, Celestial, Common, and Ignan.

We could even give it more than that, since SRD Djinn are less intelligent than these turbans (Int 14 vs Int 18). 



Shade said:


> This suggests a racial bonus to Disguise, plus a huge situational racial bonus to mimic cloth items.




I was thinking a +10 bonus to Disguise as is standard for Alternate Form, but if you want to add a racial bonus on top of that I see no reason not to.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2012)

Cleon said:


> With its genius intelligence it ought to be able to speak a bunch of languages.
> 
> How about the same as a Djinni - Auran, Celestial, Common, and Ignan.
> 
> We could even give it more than that, since SRD Djinn are less intelligent than these turbans (Int 14 vs Int 18).




Let's throw Draconic on the pile, since it is the "language of magic".




Cleon said:


> I was thinking a +10 bonus to Disguise as is standard for Alternate Form, but if you want to add a racial bonus on top of that I see no reason not to.




That outta suffice.  Updated.

A vizier’s turban is x feet tall and weighs x pounds. It can change its skin and eye coloration to suit its host and can even reshape itself somewhat to resemble other accessories such as scarves and helms. It has no need to eat or drink and may be immortal, for none has ever been witnessed to expire of natural causes.

Do we need a size and weight?   Should we just state it weighs about as much as a similar-sized piece of cloth?


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> Let's throw Draconic on the pile, since it is the "language of magic".




I was thinking about suggesting Draconic, so that's agreeable.

I notice you've put "A vizier's turban cannot speak" in the Homebrews, which makes me wonder how we can be sure they're mute? It says they communicate telepathically with their hosts and leaves it at that, which I _suppose_ might mean that's their only innate means of communication. There's no mention of them having a "mouth" or "tongue" to speak with.

Maybe there's something in their illustration... The MCA2 picture shows a turban with a badge at the front in the shape of a lion-like face, complete with two jewels (its "eyes"), a nose and a mouth. The Corsairs of the Great Sea shows a turban with a serpent-like head at the top, which also has eyes and a mouth.

Now those mouths may be mere ornament, but it's also possible the turban can speak with them.

Hold on, we've got "When two vizier’s turbans meet (usually while traveling with their bonded wizards), they will greet one another politely but refrain from long conversation". That means they must be able to talk, since if they communicated with each other telepathically the observer would not know they were having a conversation!



Shade said:


> A vizier’s turban is x feet tall and weighs x pounds. It can change its skin and eye coloration to suit its host and can even reshape itself somewhat to resemble other accessories such as scarves and helms. It has no need to eat or drink and may be immortal, for none has ever been witnessed to expire of natural causes.
> 
> Do we need a size and weight?   Should we just state it weighs about as much as a similar-sized piece of cloth?




The ADYD Turban has "S (2'-4' long)" in its Size. Why not use that?

Considering both the turban's illustrations show it with a "face badge", I would add that to the background text.

How's this:

_A brightly colored turban of fine cloth is fastened by two shimmering jewels.

_A vizier’s turban is a symbiotic entity that feeds upon a spellcaster's  vitality in exchange for greater spellcasting power.  It enjoys watching  what goes on around it from its vantage point atop its partner’s head.

Despite its parasitic nature, a vizier’s turban makes an excellent  companion. It eagerly engages in philosophical discussions with its  host.  It never seeks to impose its own will, but will offer its opinion  gladly if asked.  Keen and observant, it loves travel and views all new  experiences with a sense of wonder.  Although it has no affinity for  spellcasting itself, it derives a sense of satisfaction from feeling its  host‘s emotional response to acquiring and casting spells.

A vizier's turban can change the color and pattern of its skin to match any kind of cloth, but prefers to look like fine silk or satin. It can even  reshape itself to resemble other accessories such as scarves  and helms. The turban has two eyes that can appear to be gems or buttons, it usually makes them look like fine jewels. A vizier's turban sometimes shapes part of its body to mimic a metal badge  pinned to the front or top of the turban. This badge is often shaped  like a face of some sort - man, beast, or monster - set with the  "jewels" of the turban's eyes. 

A vizier's turban takes on whatever appearance suits its host. When without a host, vizier's turbans often hide in places where turbans  can be found, such as cloth markets, wardrobes, rag bags, and among  caravan trade goods.   

Although their origins are unknown, many sages speculate vizier's turbans were  created by genies, or are lesser genies in their own right.  Others  theories suggest they were once familiars or magic items that acquired  sentience and eventually, life. They have  no need to eat, drink or breathe, and may be immortal. None has ever been  witnessed to expire of natural causes.

Vizier's turbans change alignment to match their hosts, they are generally neutral when on their own. They have no differentiation of sex, adopting a gender  outlook that resembles their hosts. Theories suggest they reproduce  by fission, forming a duplicate which is then left to fend for itself.

A vizier's turban is 2 to 4 feet across if it fully unfolds  its cloth-like body. Its weight is negligible, a few ounces at the most. 

Vizier's turbans can speak Auran, Celestial, Common,  Draconic, and Ignan.  However, while a vizier's turban enjoys communicating telepathically with its  host, it has no interest in talking to anyone else. Even if it meets another vizier's turban, the two turbans will greet each other politely but hold no further conversation.


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2012)

Nice deductive reasoning!   I like it.   Updated.   Finished?


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## Cleon (Feb 7, 2012)

Shade said:


> Nice deductive reasoning!   I like it.   Updated.   Finished?




Methinks you lacked "Alertnness" when entering the feat.

The "Symbiotic Spellcasting (Su)" is followed by a semi-colon instead of a colon and the body text has an "additonal".
Symbiotic Spellcasting (Ex); A creature with an attached vizier's turban  can transfer up to 10 points of its Constitution to the vizier's turban  each day. For each point of Constitution transferred, the host gains 1  point of spell resistance and one additional spell level. These spell  levels can be used to cast additional spells. Spontaneous spellcasters  gain additional spell slots totaling a level equal to the sacrificed  Constitution. Spellcasters who must prepare their spells may memorize  additional spells totaling a level equal to the sacrificed Constitution.  The spell levels may be split in any combination, but a single spell  slot/prepared spell cannot exceed 5th-level. A 0-level spell counts as a  half-level for these purposes. Thus, a sorcerer sacrificing 5 points of  Constitution could gain a single 5th-level spell slot, a 4th-level and  1st-level spell slot, a 3rd-level and 2nd-level spell slot, and so  forth. A wizard transferring 5 points of Constitution to its attached  turban could prepare an *additonal *5th-level spell, a 4th-level and  1st-level spell, a 3rd-level and 2nd-level spell, and so forth. ​Apart from that we can move on.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2012)

Fixed.

We seem to have run out of critters for this thread.   Can anyone think of a generic creature that fits this setting, or a creature already converted by another unofficial source we'd like to tackle?


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## Number 6 (Feb 9, 2012)

Do we have a version of the cultist lizard/human hybrids from ALQ5 Ruined Kingdoms?


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2012)

Number 6 said:


> Do we have a version of the cultist lizard/human hybrids from ALQ5 Ruined Kingdoms?




Not of which I am aware.

Do you have the stats handy?


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## Number 6 (Feb 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> Not of which I am aware.
> 
> Do you have the stats handy?



I'll be able to post them sometime after my D&D game tonight.

Is there a list of all the creatures worked on in the Al-Qadim threads?  I think I've seen an old list before.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2012)

Number 6 said:


> I'll be able to post them sometime after my D&D game tonight.




Great!


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

Do we have all the variant camels accounted for?

Admittedly, the following seems more interesting.



Number 6 said:


> Do we have a version of the cultist lizard/human hybrids from ALQ5 Ruined Kingdoms?


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## Number 6 (Feb 13, 2012)

So much for "tonight".
Better late than never, I suppose. 


*Segarran, Lesser
**CLIMATE/TERRAIN:* Any
*FREQUENCY:* Rare
*ORGANIZATION:* Cadres
*ACTIVITY CYCLE:* Any
*DIET:* Carnivore
*INTELLIGENCE:* Average (8-10)
*TREASURE:* Nil
*ALIGNMENT:* Chaotic evil
*NO. APPEARING:* 1-20 (or more)
*ARMOR CLASS:* 1
*MOVEMENT:* 9
*HIT DICE:* 5 +5
*THAC0:* 16
*NO. OF ATTACKS:* 1
*DAMAGE/ATTACK:* By weapon type +2 or 2d8 (bite)
*SPECIAL ATTACKS:* Fight and save as 5th-level warriors
*SPECIAL DEFENSES:* Nil
*MAGIC RESISTANCE:* 10%
*SIZE:* M (6' tall)
*MORALE:* Fearless (20)
*LEVEL/XP VALUE:* 1,400

Segarrans are special minions of Ragarra, an ancient, evil goddess of  the jungle, typhoons, and revenge, once openly worshipped in the Ruined  Kingdoms.

A lesser segarran has the head and tail of a crocodile but the stocky,  heavily muscled body of a human or humanoid. Lesser segarrans are  usually created from devoted followers, but they also can be created  from infant crocodiles using a spell granted only to Ragarra's  priestesses. These lesser servants have average human intelligence and  can communicate in Midani or any of the dead tongues of the Ruined  Kingdoms.

*Combat:* Lesser segarrans fight using the tactics and weapons of  5th-level human warriors, though their supernatural strength lends them a  +2 bonus on damage. If unarmed, they attack by biting for 2-16 (2d8)  points of damage. All lesser segarrans have 10% magic resistance.

*Habitat/Society:* Once, when the powers of Ragarra were great,  even her lesser servants could assume human form and walk the city  streets unnoticed; now they are limited to their half-reptile form.   They are found primarily in the Ruined Kingdoms and Zakhara's eastern  jungles, but they sometimes can be encountered mingling with human  society at night, when they can hide their monstrosity through careful  disguise. More often they are used as defenders for Ragarra's few  shrines or as protectors for her chosen few.

*Ecology:* All segarrans are voracious carnivores. Though they  usually subsist on animal meat, they ritually devour their enemies'  remains at the end of every battle. When slain, they return to their  original (human or baby crocodile) form.


*Segarran, Greater
**CLIMATE/TERRAIN:* Tropical/forests
*FREQUENCY:* Very rare
*ORGANIZATION:* Solitary
*ACTIVITY CYCLE:* Any
*DIET:* Carnivore
*INTELLIGENCE:* Very to genius (11-18)
*TREASURE:* A
*ALIGNMENT:* Chaotic evil
*NO. APPEARING:* 1
*ARMOR CLASS:* -2
*MOVEMENT:* 12 (as human) or 9, Sw 12 (Fl 18, D)
*HIT DICE:* 9 +18
*THAC0:* As priest
*NO. OF ATTACKS:* 1 (as human) or 2
*DAMAGE/ATTACK:* By weapon type +6 or 3d6 (bite)/2d10 (tail)
*SPECIAL ATTACKS:* See below
*SPECIAL DEFENSES:* See below
*MAGIC RESISTANCE:* 20%
*SIZE:* M (6' tall) or H (30' long)
*MORALE:* Champion (16)
*LEVEL/XP VALUE:* 8,000+1,000 per level above 12

Only Ragarra's most favored high-level priestesses become greater segarrans as a result of powerful magic. Once transformed, they retain their original human form. Furthermore, they can also assume a towering reptilian shape at will, with the transformation taking but a single round. This reptilian form depends on the personality or whim of the priestess, but usually includes at least the head and tail of a giant crocodile. At 16th-level, a greater segarran's reptile form can also include a pair of giant bat wings, permitting her to fly at a rate of 18.

*Combat:* While in human form, Ragarra's chosen fight using the tactics, magical items, and weapons of priests, though their supernatural strength lends them a +6 bonus on damage. They never wear armor, though they may use magical items (such as a ring of protection) to enhance their Armor Class. All greater segarrans have 20% magic resistance.

Although they retain most of their priest spells from before the transformation, greater segarrans cannot memorize the highest level spells to which they are normally allowed (for instance, a 13th-level priestess, while a greater segarran, cannot memorize or cast her 6th-level spells).

In her reptilian form, a greater segarran can attack with her massive jaws (3d6 points of damage) and swipe up to 3 opponents standing beside or behind her with her powerful tail (2d10 points of damage). At 16th level, a segarran's bat wings can also be used for two wing buffets instead of flight, each inflicting 2d6 points of damage. All victims of a tail swipe or wing buffet must save vs. paralyzation or be stunned for 1-4 rounds.

*Habitat/Society:* In addition to the loss of her most powerful spells, a priestess of Ragarra must have a Wisdom of 17 and be at least 12th-level to complete the exhausting ceremony that transforms her into a greater segarran.

In return for such power, the priestess must swear to undertake a difficult quest or perform a dangerous service for her goddess. Those few who disappoint Ragarra are punished with a painful demise and suffer an eternity of undeath. More details about the cult of Ragarra can be found in Chapter Three of the Campaign Guide (in _The Ruinted Kingdoms_ sourcebook).

*Ecology:* Greater segarrans can easily infiltrate human society. The only clue to their monstrous nature is their craving for raw meat. They must eat the flesh of their fallen enemies as a tribute to Ragarra.


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

These look fairly straightforward.

I'm tempted to make these straight monsters rather than a template.

We can probably recycle some of the *Brute* and *Master* Crocodilian conversions we did some time ago.

Shall we use a low Wisdom to represent the Greater Segallan's inability to cast its highest level spells? (e.g. have them cast spells as 13th level clerics with Wisdom 15).

I know it says that the candidate must have a Wisdom of at least 17, but that's _*before*_ they become a Greater Segallan. Maybe the transformation imposed a Wisdom penalty. Obtaining a crocodile's head might do that to you!

I'm also tempted to add a "Greatest Segallan" for the bat-winged, 16th level spellcaster version.


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 13, 2012)

Um, we did these already.

We haven't done the ammut or pahari yet.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2012)

Yep, we sure did.  I didn't realize you were talking about the segarran.

Creature Catalog - Preview Creature

I'll dig up the stats for the ammut or pahari soon.


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yep, we sure did.  I didn't realize you were talking about the segarran.
> 
> Creature Catalog - Preview Creature
> 
> I'll dig up the stats for the ammut or pahari soon.




Well that was a quick conversion!

I thought these fellows seemed familiar, but I suspected I was getting them mixed up with our Crocodilian lizardfolk conversion, not a _completely different_ evil crocodile-human hybrid with brutish minions and clerical masters.



Shade said:


> I'll dig up the stats for the ammut or pahari soon.




Of those two, the ammut seems the more interesting.

If by "interesting" you read "likely to eat the PCs".


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

I've just noticed another Al-Qadim creature that doesn't appear to be accounted for - the Coelenite from _*Golden Voyages*_.

EDIT: Oh, and the Ogrima from _*Golden Voyages*_ doesn't seem to have official stats either, although it is in Eric Boyd's _*Bestiary of the Realms*_ pdf.


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2012)

I'll have to check those out as well.  Thanks!


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## Cleon (Feb 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'll have to check those out as well.  Thanks!




Do we have 3E stats for the Hama?

Assuming we're converting the Ammut, we need 3E stats for the Hama, since evil Hama are what the Ammuts feed upon.


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2012)

They haven't been officially converted, so they fall under our "fair game" umbrella...

*Hama*
Climate/Terrain: Any 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Solitary 
Activity Cycle: Day 
Diet: None 
Intelligence: Low to Very (5-12) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Any 
No. Appearing: 1 
Armor Class: 2 (7) 
Movement: 1, Fl 30 
Hit Dice: 1 
THAC0: 20 
No. of Attacks: 2 
Damage/Attack: 1-3/1-3 
Special Attacks: Fear 
Special Defenses: Immaterial 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: S 
Morale: Average (8-10) 
XP Value: 120 

Hama are spirit birds formed when the soul rises from the body in bird-form upon a person’s death. This spirit bird normally then leaves the Prime Material Plane and makes its journey to the afterlife. Those who die by violence or with some important duty unfulfilled leave their hama tethered to the Prime Material Plane, seeking to right things before they leave.

Hama are unable to communicate with speech, but their songs and croakings sometimes offer clues to what they are seeking to accomplish before they pass on. A speak with animals spell is not effective in attempting to speak with a hama, though tongues is. A hama can understand all forms of speech.

The two most common forms of the hama are the owl and the eagle, but other bird forms are also possible. Sparrow, nightingale, parrot, falcon, peacock, and even vulture hama have been seen, and the form of a hama invariably reflects the alignment and personality of the soul that formed it. By day, hama appear to be ordinary members of their various species, though they may exhibit behavior unusual for their respective species. By night, hama are almost always semi-transparent, and their faint ghostly glow distinguishes them from other birds. Their eyes are full of bright fire.

Combat: Hama attack in a flurry of wispy claws, beaks, and wings, for a total of two effective attacks per round. The spirit forms of hama are difficult to hurt because they are only partially tethered to the Prime Material Plane, thus giving them AC 2. On the Ethereal plane, however, hama are AC 7.

In some ways, hama are similar to ghosts. Seeing one requires a morale check for henchmen and hirelings, and those who fail flee the area as if affected by a fear spell. By concentrating, a hama may make its form immaterial, allowing it to pass through walls and other obstacles. It may do this three times per day, with each instance lasting as long as the hama can maintain its concentration. It may fly while concentrating, but any successful attack on the spirit bird disrupts its concentration and makes achieving its immaterial form impossible that round.

Hama rarely leave the area in which they are encountered. And, for purposes of turning by clerics, hama are considered lingering spirits rather than undead (they have no connection to the Negative Material Plane). Thus, they cannot be turned.

Habitat/Society: Hama are always solitary and always driven to accomplish some task, usually simple vengeance. There have been cases of hama who await the arrival of a beloved, the return of something that they have lost, or the proper disposal of an estate or inheritance; some simply watch over and protect children they could not bear to leave. The tasks that hold a spirit bird to the world are broad, but in most cases they are centered around a specific person or location.

Helping a good hama accomplish its task may result in the granting of a gift to the helpful party. A hama is always recognized as a spirit by hakima and mystics, and a hama may make it plain to such priests that it owes a debt of gratitude to someone. The help that the priests may render on the hama’s behalf varies from good advice to restorative spells. In some cases, a hama may even delay its departure to the outer planes by several days to repay its obligation. In this case the hama may carry messages, act as a scout or lookout, or perform stunts to impress audiences on its benefactor’s behalf.

Ecology: After their task is accomplished, hama depart for their final reward on the outer planes. Until then they only react to creatures related to their final tasks or creatures able to assist them with their goals.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## Cleon (Feb 16, 2012)

Shade said:


> They haven't been officially converted, so they fall under our "fair game" umbrella...
> 
> *Hama*




Good! We might as well convert them before we do the Ammut.

Small Outsider (Native)?

They can't be turned and are considered "spirits" rather than Undead - which suggests the Spirit subtype for Oriental Adventures campaigns.

Powers are:

Fearsome morale-shaking appearance, but not _that_ fearsome since it only affected henchman and hirelings. Maybe causes the Shaken condition? Or a Scare ability like a Krenshar?

"semi-etherealness" (can be attacked from both the material and ethereal plane, worse AC on the Ethereal.)

May become immaterial 3 times per day (to phase through walls and the like).


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Good! We might as well convert them before we do the Ammut.
> 
> Small Outsider (Native)?
> 
> They can't be turned and are considered "spirits" rather than Undead - which suggests the Spirit subtype for Oriental Adventures campaigns.




Sounds about right.

Powers are:



Cleon said:


> Fearsome morale-shaking appearance, but not _that_ fearsome since it only affected henchman and hirelings. Maybe causes the Shaken condition? Or a Scare ability like a Krenshar?




That might work.  Maybe the unnatural aura of wraiths as well?



Cleon said:


> "semi-etherealness" (can be attacked from both the material and ethereal plane, worse AC on the Ethereal.)
> 
> May become immaterial 3 times per day (to phase through walls and the like).




I'm thinking something like ethereal jaunt.  I don't want them overly complex for 1 HD creaturss.


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## Cleon (Feb 21, 2012)

Shade said:


> That might work.  Maybe the unnatural aura of wraiths as well?




Hmm, after reflection the "Seeing one requires a morale check for henchmen and hirelings, and those who fail flee the area as if affected by a _fear_ spell" suggests it's just a limited Frightening Appearance. We could make it an effect that only works against low HD creatures, to match the "only affects hirelings" bit.

I don't mind the unnatural aura bit idea, but I think we'd better make it a single SQ, but we could easily include parts of Unnatural Aura in it. 

How about one or other of the following this?

*Demoralizing Appearance (Su):* Any living creature with 1 Hit Dice or less that sees a hama must succeed at a DC X Will save or be frightened for X rounds, fleeing in the most expeditious manner available. This is a mind-affecting fear effect, the save DC is Charisma-based.

*Demoralizing Presence (Su):* Any intelligent, living creature with 1 Hit Dice or less that sees a hama must  succeed at a DC X Will save or be shaken for X rounds. In addition, animals (regardless of Hit Dice) can sense the unnatural presence  of a hama at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach  nearer than that and become frightened if forced to do so; they remain frightened as long as they are within that range. 

Of the two, I'm leaning towards the first.



Shade said:


> I'm thinking something like ethereal jaunt.  I don't want them overly complex for 1 HD creaturss.




Yes, that was pretty much what I was thinking of. Like this?

*Ethereal Shift (Sp):* Three times a day, a hama can shift from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane as a standard action. It can remain on the Ethereal Plane for as long as it can concentrate, or shift back to the Material Plane as a free action. A hama that is injured or distracted while using Ethereal Shift must succeed at a Concentration check or return to the Material Plane. The ability is otherwise identical with the ethereal jaunt spell (caster level 13th).

I made it an SLA since the original creature was unable to become ethereal if it was distracted.

Hmm, I think that's enough to start a Working Draft.


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## Cleon (Feb 21, 2012)

*Hama Working Draft*

*Hama*
Tiny Outsider (Native)
*Hit Dice:* 1d10 (5 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 squares), fly 80 ft. (perfect)
*Armor Class:* 17 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +3 deflection), touch 17, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/-7
*Attack:* Claws +5 melee (1d3) or bite +5 melee (1d3)
 *Full Attack: *Claws +5 melee (1d3) and bite +0 melee (1d3)
 *Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Demoralizing appearance
 *Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., ethereal shift, rejuvenation, semi-ethereal
 *Saves: *Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 10, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 14
*Skills:* Bluff +6, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (local) +3, Listen +4, Perform (song)  +6, Sense Motive +4, Spot +4
*Feats: *Flyby Attack, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment: *Underground
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 1/2
 *Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Any
*Advancement:* 2-3 HD (Small)
*Level Adjustment:* —

 _A semi-transparent bird the size of an eagle or snowy owl. Its body glows faintly and its eyes are full of bright fire._

Hama are spirits of the dead that remain tied to our world by their  desire to fulfill some unfinished task. During the day hama look like  ordinary birds, although they might be of unusual size, but at night  they take on a glowing ghostly appearance. The bird form of a hama  invariably reflects the personality of the soul it formed from. Eagle or  owl are the most common forms of hama, followed by sparrow,  nightingale, parrot, falcon, peacock, and vulture.

A hama is always driven to accomplish a specific task; in most cases  this task centers around a particular person or location. Hamas are  solitary creatures who rarely stray far from their territory (or the  subject of their obsession). If a hama's task is fulfilled the spirit  bird departs for the afterlife, although good-aligned hama may delay  their departure to reward creatures who helped release them from their  mortal ties.

 Hama can not speak but understand all languages. They can sing or  squawk like the bird they resemble, which sometimes offer clues to their  intentions or desires.
 
*COMBAT*

 A hama will fight if it would further whatever purpose ties them to the  Material Plane. If it wishes to avoid combat, a hama will fly away or  try to scare its opponents into leaving. A fighting hama prefers to use  its Flyby Attack feat to make hit-and-run attacks, it usually only makes  full attacks when attacking a particularly hated opponent or it the  hama is unable to maneuver. A cornered hama can use its Ethereal Shift  ability as a safe escape route.

 *Demoralizing Appearance (Su):* Any living creature with 1 Hit  Dice or less that sees a hama must succeed at a DC 12 Will save or be  frightened for 1d3 rounds, fleeing in the most expeditious manner  available. This is a mind-affecting fear effect, the save DC is  Charisma-based.

*Ethereal Shift (Sp):* Three times a day, a hama can shift from  the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane as a standard action. It can  remain on the Ethereal Plane for as long as it can concentrate, or shift  back to the Material Plane as a free action. A hama that is injured or  distracted while using Ethereal Shift must succeed at a Concentration  check or return to the Material Plane. The ability is otherwise  identical with the _ethereal jaunt_ spell (caster level 13th).

*Semi-Ethereal (Ex):* A hama exists simultaneously on both the Ethereal and Material planes. Hamas gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to 1-1/2 their Charisma modifier.

A hama's attacks can always affect targets on the Ethereal Plane, and ethereal opponents can always attack a hama. Furthermore, ethereal attackers ignore the hama's deflection bonus (giving the hama AC 14 against ethereal attacks). The hama's attacks affect targets on the Material Plane, and material attacks can affect the hama, unless the hama uses its Ethereal Shift ability (see  above) to fully manifest on the ethereal plane.

A hama has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.

*Rejuvenation (Su):* In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a hama  through simple combat: The "destroyed" spirit will often restore itself  in 1 year. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary  solutions. A hama that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old  haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + hama’s HD) against DC 16.  As a rule, the only way to get rid of a hama for sure is to determine  its incomplete task and help it to accomplish its goal. The exact means  varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.  Even  when its task is complete, a hama may linger in order to provide a  reward for its helpers, although it can no longer rejuvenate if  destroyed.


----------



## Shade (Feb 23, 2012)

I'd rather keep the Ethereal Shift to the standardized "Ethereal Jaunt" ability.

Hmmm....the more I look at these, the more I think they should be always incorporeal on the Material Plane.   The AC, for example, is waaaay too good for Dex alone, and natural armor makes no sense.  If we're giving them the deflection bonus anyway, I'd rather it follow the normal rules for incorporeal creatures (equal to Cha modifier).  They are essentially non-undead versions of the ghost, which works this way.

I have a feeling you're going to strongly disagree with this non-exception-based design.  

Calling all tiebreakers...anyone here?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'd rather keep the Ethereal Shift to the standardized "Ethereal Jaunt" ability.
> 
> Hmmm....the more I look at these, the more I think they should be always incorporeal on the Material Plane.   The AC, for example, is waaaay too good for Dex alone, and natural armor makes no sense.  If we're giving them the deflection bonus anyway, I'd rather it follow the normal rules for incorporeal creatures (equal to Cha modifier).  They are essentially non-undead versions of the ghost, which works this way.
> 
> ...




There's little in the description to suggest they've got the Incorporeal subtype. They may be "difficult to hurt because they are only partially tethered to the Prime Material Plane", but it doesn't require magical weapons to hit them.

I _might_ be persuaded to give them a "semi-incorporeal" trait that is basically a weaker version of incorporeality - can be hit by nonmagical weapons, and material attackers only have a 20% miss chance.

Of course, that's an exception-based solution, so you won't like it.


----------



## Shade (Feb 24, 2012)

Cleon said:


> There's little in the description to suggest they've got the Incorporeal subtype. They may be "difficult to hurt because they are only partially tethered to the Prime Material Plane", but it doesn't require magical weapons to hit them.
> 
> I _might_ be persuaded to give them a "semi-incorporeal" trait that is basically a weaker version of incorporeality - can be hit by nonmagical weapons, and material attackers only have a 20% miss chance.
> 
> Of course, that's an exception-based solution, so you won't like it.




You're right about that, although I might be persuaded to give 'em a continous blur effect or something similar to a displacer beast.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> You're right about that, although I might be persuaded to give 'em a continous blur effect or something similar to a displacer beast.




Well it does describe them as being semi-transparent during the night, so I suppose that could be "blur-like".

Besides, a miss chance is a miss chance. It makes little difference what you call it as far as the rules go. How about...

*Semi-Ethereal (Ex):* A hama exists simultaneously on both the  Ethereal and Material Planes, except for when the hama uses its Ethereal Shift ability (see  above)  to fully manifest on the Ethereal Plane. Normally, a hama has a partial existence on the Material Plane, giving material opponents a 20% miss chance when attacking a hama. A material opponent can use a _ghost touch_ weapon to attack a hama without this miss chance. Ethereal opponents never have this miss chance when attacking a hama. A hama can attack both material and ethereal opponents without penalty (unless it's using Ethereal Shift, in which case it can only attach ethereal foes).

A hama has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane.  It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.


----------



## freyar (Feb 29, 2012)

Ugh, I prefer incorporeal with some form of materialization.  But if I have to choose, I like the semi-ethereal in the working draft over the new one.  

And I'd prefer the deflection bonus to be +Cha.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 29, 2012)

freyar said:


> Ugh, I prefer incorporeal with some form of materialization.  But if I have to choose, I like the semi-ethereal in the working draft over the new one.




I don't know, you try to please someone and the other guy dislikes it even more...



freyar said:


> And I'd prefer the deflection bonus to be +Cha.




But then it'd need a Charisma of 20-21 to get the +5 bonus its original stats indicate.


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2012)

Cleon said:


> But then it'd need a Charisma of 20-21 to get the +5 bonus its original stats indicate.




We could definitely boost the Dex more.   The thing had a 2e fly speed of 30", which is pretty damn agile in most cases.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> We could definitely boost the Dex more.   The thing had a 2e fly speed of 30", which is pretty damn agile in most cases.




But that wouldn't solve the problem, since their Dex modifier to AC surely applies against attacks from the Ethereal plane.


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2012)

At 1 HD it's AC is ludicrous anyway, so we might as well just keep Dex the same and lower the deflection bonus equal to Cha.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> At 1 HD it's AC is ludicrous anyway, so we might as well just keep Dex the same and lower the deflection bonus equal to Cha.




AC 18 doesn't seem that fabulous to me.

The SRD Grig has that Armor Class and its Hit Die is even lower.


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2012)

Cleon said:


> AC 18 doesn't seem that fabulous to me.
> 
> The SRD Grig has that Armor Class and its Hit Die is even lower.




Fair enough, but we're still at a deadlock on the deflection bonus.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> Fair enough, but we're still at a deadlock on the deflection bonus.




Well why not break the impasse and give it an arbitrary value.


----------



## Shade (Mar 5, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Well why not break the impasse and give it an arbitrary value.




Because that is the impasse.  

Find me some precedents for arbitrary deflection bonuses (outside of displacer creatures) and I'm more likely to concede.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> Because that is the impasse.
> 
> Find me some precedents for arbitrary deflection bonuses (outside of displacer creatures) and I'm more likely to concede.




That sounds suspiciously like "find me an example of X apart from this example of X".

Well, the Inzeladun conversion of the Hama has an arbitrary +4 deflection bonus.

Our Enworld Air Dragon conversion has a deflection bonus equal to the NA of the original dragon, which seems pretty arbitrary.

Besides, if it's just the type that bothers you, we could just make it an arbitrary circumstance modifier or sacred modifier (or profane for evil hama) with the same AC results.


----------



## Number 6 (Mar 6, 2012)

Too bad we cannot make this a Deathless creature. 


Cleon said:


> That sounds suspiciously like "find me an example of X apart from this example of X".



It does... however, I think he might say physical creatures with displacement might differ from holy creatures (or spiritual creatures).

With those words crammed into Shade, I'm in favor of an arbitrary Deflection bonus for the Hama.  An AC of 18 for a 1 Hit Die creature doesn't seem out of place... especially considering it is a spirit.  These things need to have some kind of defense against those beastly Ammuts.

I'd actually make the Hama even smaller (perhaps Tiny) which would give it an even better Size bonus to AC... then allow for larger Hamas through Advancement.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 6, 2012)

Number 6 said:


> Too bad we cannot make this a Deathless creature.
> 
> It does... however, I think he might say physical creatures with displacement might differ from holy creatures (or spiritual creatures).
> 
> With those words crammed into Shade, I'm in favor of an arbitrary Deflection bonus for the Hama.  An AC of 18 for a 1 Hit Die creature doesn't seem out of place... especially considering it is a spirit.  These things need to have some kind of defense against those beastly Ammuts.




I prefer an arbitrary bonus too, but we have a stubborn holdout... 



Number 6 said:


> I'd actually make the Hama even smaller (perhaps Tiny) which would give it an even better Size bonus to AC... then allow for larger Hamas through Advancement.




That would work, the SRD Owl and Hawk are both Tiny.

 It depends on whether these "spirit birds" are the same size as the birds they resemble.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 6, 2012)

Cleon said:


> That would work, the SRD Owl and Hawk are both Tiny.
> 
> It depends on whether these "spirit birds" are the same size as the birds they resemble.




Hmm, contrariwise it says they often take the form of Eagles, which are Small in the SRD.


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2012)

I like the idea of making 'em Tiny, and I can live with the arbitrary deflection bonus to fill in the remainder.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 7, 2012)

Shade said:


> I like the idea of making 'em Tiny, and I can live with the arbitrary deflection bonus to fill in the remainder.




Updating the *Working Draft*.

Hmm. Comparing the stats I prefer them as Small, but if you both really want them Tiny I'll go along with it. (while keeping them Small in my own multiverse...)


----------



## Number 6 (Mar 7, 2012)

Shade said:


> I like the idea of making 'em Tiny, and I can live with the arbitrary deflection bonus to fill in the remainder.



I wish I would have thought of suggesting a Template earlier in all of this.


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## Cleon (Mar 7, 2012)

Number 6 said:


> I wish I would have thought of suggesting a Template earlier in all of this.




Don't think template works for them. As they're originally presented they're as different from their "mortal existence" as the non-templated undead.


----------



## Number 6 (Mar 7, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Don't think template works for them. As they're originally presented they're as different from their "mortal existence" as the non-templated undead.



That is correct... however, a Template would work to be used with a bird that matches the person/spirit's morality or personality.

Of course, it's a little late now.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 7, 2012)

Number 6 said:


> That is correct... however, a Template would work to be used with a bird that matches the person/spirit's morality or personality.
> 
> Of course, it's a little late now.




Hmm... that's an interesting approach.

I'm presuming it'd be some kind of "two creature" template like the Lycanthrope, which uses the physical stats of the bird and the mental stats of the soul it actually is.

It's simpler making it a straight monster of course, with the "bird type" being merely flavour.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2012)

Cleon said:


> It's simpler making it a straight monster of course, with the "bird type" being merely flavour.




True.  And starting Tiny and allowing for advancement to different sizes allows for larger birds.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 8, 2012)

Shade said:


> True.  And starting Tiny and allowing for advancement to different sizes allows for larger birds.




Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small)?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small)?




That should suffice, unless someone knows of a Medium bird we need to include.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 9, 2012)

Shade said:


> That should suffice, unless someone knows of a Medium bird we need to include.




I can't think of any 3E "real-world" bird that is Medium sized or greater, except for ratites and similar big, flightless birds. Since all Hama fly, that doesn't seem right.

Unless you really fancy having a "Ghost Ostrich".


----------



## Cleon (Mar 9, 2012)

I'm updating the *Working Draft* with 2-3 HD (Small).


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I can't think of any 3E "real-world" bird that is Medium sized or greater, except for ratites and similar big, flightless birds. Since all Hama fly, that doesn't seem right.
> 
> Unless you really fancy having a "Ghost Ostrich".




Who doesn't?!?!


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## Cleon (Mar 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> Who doesn't?!?!




I prefer to keep my personal peccadilloes private, not let everyone on the web know about flightless bird fetishes.


----------



## Shade (Mar 13, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I prefer to keep my personal peccadilloes private, not let everyone on the web know about flightless bird fetishes.




If you can't air your unusual tastes on the internet, then what kind of world has this become?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> If you can't air your unusual tastes on the internet, then what kind of world has this become?




Well, whatever tickles your fancy. (Involving ostrich feathers, presumably ).


----------



## Cleon (Mar 13, 2012)

So, what next for the Hama?


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2012)

> Hama are unable to communicate with speech, but their songs and croakings sometimes offer clues to what they are seeking to accomplish before they pass on. A speak with animals spell is not effective in attempting to speak with a hama, though tongues is. A hama can understand all forms of speech.




Hama speak their own language, but can understand all languages.  ???


----------



## Cleon (Mar 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> Hama speak their own language, but can understand all languages.  ???




That's odd.

I thought they'd understand the languages they knew in life, but I suppose if they have mystical polyglotism then their previous languages are irrelevant.

I don't think they should have a "Hama" language - they're not a species or a culture, after all.

How about...

Hama can not speak, but understand all languages. They can sing or squawk like the bird they resemble, which sometimes offer clues to their intentions or desires.


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2012)

That's fine, although do you think we should mention speak with animals being a viable means of communication?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 15, 2012)

Shade said:


> That's fine, although do you think we should mention speak with animals being a viable means of communication?




Erm, and I quote.

"A _speak with animals_ spell is not effective in attempting to speak with a hama."


----------



## Shade (Mar 16, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Erm, and I quote.
> 
> "A _speak with animals_ spell is not effective in attempting to speak with a hama."




D'oh!  I got it confused with _tongues_.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 16, 2012)

Shade said:


> D'oh!  I got it confused with _tongues_.




So are we sticking to:



Cleon said:


> Hama can not speak, but understand all languages.  They can sing or squawk like the bird they resemble, which sometimes  offer clues to their intentions or desires.


----------



## freyar (Mar 19, 2012)

Yes, let's stick to that for the languages.

But I'm still not happy about the arbitrary deflection bonus.  When we can give a rationale for something, we should do so.  So why not just bump the Cha and give it Unearthly Grace like a nymph?  If we're overpowering it relative to HD, like a grig, there's not much harm in bumping the DC on the appearance.

Sheesh, I get busy at work, and these conversions go all sorts of weird directions.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, let's stick to that for the languages.
> 
> But I'm still not happy about the arbitrary deflection bonus.  When we can give a rationale for something, we should do so.  So why not just bump the Cha




I don't see why we need any rationale more elaborate that the semi-ethereal SQ gives it a +3 deflection bonus against material attacks.

Indeed, I'm not _that_ fond of Charisma 14. If they're ordinary souls with ordinary intelligence scores, shouldn't they have ordinary Charisma scores too? I'd be just as happy with Cha 10-11.

A hama isn't a creature that's clawed it's way back from the grave by sheer force of will like a Revenant, It's just the "natural" form of a deceased soul in the Al-Qadim milieu.



freyar said:


> and give it Unearthly Grace like a nymph?  If we're overpowering it relative to HD, like a grig, there's not much harm in bumping the DC on the appearance.




But that would give it +3 on its AC _*and its saves*_. It's already got all-good saves for being an Outsider, and there's nothing about them having superior saves in the original text.


----------



## freyar (Mar 22, 2012)

I'd argue that they're already too exception-based and getting, as Shade put it earlier, "overly complex for 1HD creatures."  Semi-ethereal is odd enough as it is.  If you both want to stick with this without tying the deflection bonus to Cha, Semi-ethereal needs to state it explicitly.  At least a line about hama gaining a deflection bonus vs material plane attackers.  Perhaps making it equal to 1-1/2 Cha?  Even a ghost's deflection bonus is tied to Cha.

But I'd argue that high Cha is fine for these.  They are spirits torn from their bodies under unusual circumstances and are single-minded in their goals.  This is very similar to most ghosts, which get +4 Cha.  

Frankly, I think these would work much better as "reverse ghosts," normally manifest but able to become incorporeal.  I also like them better as undead with turning immunity than outsiders (the spirit subtype can apply to undead).  Like I said, though, this conversion kind of got going without me.

I think I need to insist on tying the deflection bonus to Cha, like a ghost, though.  That's the clear precedent.


----------



## Shade (Mar 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> Frankly, I think these would work much better as "reverse ghosts," normally manifest but able to become incorporeal.  I also like them better as undead with turning immunity than outsiders (the spirit subtype can apply to undead).  Like I said, though, this conversion kind of got going without me.




Good idea!  I'm tempted to start over, and allow Cleon to save the rest for the Cleon Special (TM).



freyar said:


> I think I need to insist on tying the deflection bonus to Cha, like a ghost, though.  That's the clear precedent.




Let's make that work.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> Good idea!  I'm tempted to start over, and allow Cleon to save the rest for the Cleon Special (TM).




You just can't cope with My Specialness!™ 



Shade said:


> Let's make that work.




So Freyar, do you want to hold on the Hama until Shade's back from his hols? 

We've got plenty of other monsters to fuss over!


----------



## freyar (Mar 24, 2012)

Heh, waiting might be a good idea.

Are you really set on making these Outsiders?  If so, we could just do two versions while Shade is away.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Heh, waiting might be a good idea.




We might as well, then.



freyar said:


> Are you really set on making these Outsiders?  If so, we could just do two versions while Shade is away.




Yes, I think of them as more Petitioners than Ghosts.


----------



## freyar (Mar 28, 2012)

OK, we'll wait and maybe do an undead version then.

Would you agree to saying the deflection bonus is 1-1/2 Cha?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> OK, we'll wait and maybe do an undead version then.
> 
> Would you agree to saying the deflection bonus is 1-1/2 Cha?




Eh?

I thought we were leaving this until Shade got back.

 If we're waiting shouldn't we wait!


----------



## freyar (Apr 5, 2012)

Just trying to forge a consensus.  Otherwise, Shade and I will have to outvote you.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> Just trying to forge a consensus.  Otherwise, Shade and I will have to outvote you.




I'll just Cleon Special™ you if you refuse to recognize my genius.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> Just trying to forge a consensus.  Otherwise, Shade and I will have to outvote you.






Cleon said:


> I'll just Cleon Special™ you if you refuse to recognize my genius.




It looks like win-win here.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> It looks like win-win here.




So now you're back, where do you currently stand on The Great Deflection Conundrum vis-à-vis the Hama?


----------



## freyar (Apr 8, 2012)

I think he's seen sense.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think he's seen sense.




Oh, you mean he's agreed with me. 

...Or is running from this thread, screaming.


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So now you're back, where do you currently stand on The Great Deflection Conundrum vis-à-vis the Hama?




I agree with Freyar, and fully support a Cleon Special (TM).


----------



## freyar (Apr 10, 2012)

So stick a line "Hamas gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to 1-1/2 their Charisma modifier" into "Semi-Ethereal"?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 11, 2012)

Shade said:


> I agree with Freyar, and fully support a Cleon Special (TM).




You're just saying that to leave me to do the work.

As usual.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> So stick a line "Hamas gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to 1-1/2 their Charisma modifier" into "Semi-Ethereal"?




I'll leave that up to Shade.


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> So stick a line "Hamas gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to 1-1/2 their Charisma modifier" into "Semi-Ethereal"?




Sure.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> Sure.




So what do we have left for this dull Non-Cleon Special version?


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So what do we have left for this dull Non-Cleon Special version?




For starters, the bland working draft will need an unintersting update to its vanilla content.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> For starters, the bland working draft will need an unintersting update to its vanilla content.




That sounds appropriately unexciting.

 Updating the *Working Draft*.


----------



## Shade (Apr 17, 2012)

The Demoralizing appearance DC should be 12, correct?

Didn't we discuss languages (or lack thereof) upthread?

I can almost justify CR 1 for them, as they are highly maneuverable and difficult to hit.   Speaking of that, Flyby Attack for the feat?



> Hama are always solitary and always driven to accomplish some task, usually simple vengeance. There have been cases of hama who await the arrival of a beloved, the return of something that they have lost, or the proper disposal of an estate or inheritance; some simply watch over and protect children they could not bear to leave. The tasks that hold a spirit bird to the world are broad, but in most cases they are centered around a specific person or location.




Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Listen, Perform (song), Search, Sense Motive, Spot?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> The Demoralizing appearance DC should be 12, correct?




Yes, and it needs a duration too.



Shade said:


> Didn't we discuss languages (or lack thereof) upthread?




See *following post*.



Shade said:


> I can almost justify CR 1 for them, as they are highly maneuverable and  difficult to hit.   Speaking of that, Flyby Attack for the feat?




I'm reluctant to increase it.

A Stirge has almost as good an AC, better initiative and a nasty Con damage special attack and it's CR          ½.

Is Demoralizing Appearance really worth as much as Blood Drain?

Flyby Attack's fine. Shall I update it with that?



Shade said:


> Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Listen, Perform (song), Search, Sense Motive, Spot?




Not sure about Diplomacy, considering its language skills.

Bluff has a "Delivering a Secret Message" option to get a message across to another character without others understanding it. That'd fit the flavour.

Alternatively, I'd consider Knowledge (religion) or (the planes).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> Didn't we discuss languages (or lack thereof) upthread?




You mean...



Cleon said:


> Shade said:
> 
> 
> > > Hama are unable to communicate with speech, but their songs and  croakings sometimes offer clues to what they are seeking to accomplish  before they pass on. A speak with animals spell is not effective in  attempting to speak with a hama, though tongues is. A hama can  understand all forms of speech.
> ...






Shade said:


> That's fine, although do you think we should  mention speak with animals being a viable means of  communication?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## freyar (Apr 18, 2012)

I think Bluff would be good for the last skill given the squawking or singing to get a message.

Definitely go with Flyby Attack.  The ethereal shift is a much better defense than a stirge gets, but I do agree that they shouldn't be more than CR 1/2.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think Bluff would be good for the last skill given the squawking or singing to get a message.
> 
> Definitely go with Flyby Attack.  The ethereal shift is a much better defense than a stirge gets, but I do agree that they shouldn't be more than CR 1/2.




OK, so shall I update it with the following:

4 ranks apiece in Bluff, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Listen, Perform (song), Search, Sense Motive, Spot.

Flyby Attack feat.

Confirm CR 1/2.

I just realized the current draft has Int 9, which would give it 7 skills @ 4 ranks. We'd better increase it to Int 10-11.


----------



## freyar (Apr 19, 2012)

Int 11 is ok.  Or drop Search.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Int 11 is ok.  Or drop Search.




Hmm, you know I'd be almost as happy dropping Search as raising Int to 11.

Shall we wait to see which Shade prefers?


----------



## Shade (Apr 20, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, you know I'd be almost as happy dropping Search as raising Int to 11.
> 
> Shall we wait to see which Shade prefers?




Drop Search.

And I still think they're too good for CR 1/2.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 22, 2012)

Shade said:


> Drop Search.




  Updating the *Working Draft*.



Shade said:


> And I still think they're too good for CR 1/2.




If you can get Freyar on your side I might begrudgingly go along, just to keep the forum peaceful, like.


----------



## Shade (Apr 23, 2012)

Cleon said:


> If you can get Freyar on your side I might begrudgingly go along, just to keep the forum peaceful, like.




Perhaps a playtest is in order to assess its value?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> Perhaps a playtest is in order to assess its value?




That seems too much like work.


----------



## Shade (Apr 24, 2012)

Cleon said:


> That seems too much like work.




Go ahead and leave it at 1/2, and someone will eventually use 'em and let us know if we were wrong.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 25, 2012)

Shade said:


> Go ahead and leave it at 1/2, and someone will eventually use 'em and let us know if we were wrong.




So are we ready to cut out *?the red questions?* and finish them off with some savoury flavour text?

EDIT: Once I've added the skills to the *Working Draft*, that is.

EDITED EDIT: Hold on, didn't I add the skills three days ago? That's what post #461 was about. Is it my imagination, or do my updates seem to disappear now and again.


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So are we ready to cut out *?the red questions?* and finish them off with some savoury flavour text?
> 
> EDIT: Once I've added the skills to the *Working Draft*, that is.
> 
> EDITED EDIT: Hold on, didn't I add the skills three days ago? That's what post #461 was about. Is it my imagination, or do my updates seem to disappear now and again.




Maybe you did one too many edited edits?


----------



## freyar (Apr 27, 2012)

Cut the red text.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 28, 2012)

Shade said:


> Maybe you did one too many edited edits?




Nah, that'd be a Re-edited Edited Edit. 



freyar said:


> Cut the red text.




Updating the *Working Draft*.


----------



## Shade (May 1, 2012)

So, we just need flavor and tactics?


----------



## Cleon (May 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> So, we just need flavor and tactics?




Yup, looks that way.


----------



## freyar (May 4, 2012)

Hmmm, since they are bound to the earth by the need to finish some specific task, shouldn't they have some form of ghostly rejuvenation?  After all, they died once already and still stuck around.

Tactics: Hama attack with claws and bite, careful to fly out of melee range after each attack.  If sorely pressed, they use their ethereal shift ability to escape.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, since they are bound to the earth by the need to finish some specific task, shouldn't they have some form of ghostly rejuvenation?  After all, they died once already and still stuck around.




There's no mention of such an ability in the original monster, so I'm not in favour of adding it.



freyar said:


> Tactics: Hama attack with claws and bite, careful to fly out of melee  range after each attack.  If sorely pressed, they use their ethereal  shift ability to escape.




If they're attacking with their claws and bite they won't be able to use their Flyby Attack to fly out of melee range.

How about:

Hama fight with claws and bite. They usually use their Flyby Attack feat to claw an opponent and fly out of melee range. A sorely pressed hama will use its ethereal shift ability to escape.


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## Shade (May 8, 2012)

Cleon said:


> There's no mention of such an ability in the original monster, so I'm not in favour of adding it.




...and yet you just proposed the same thing in the OA thread!  




Cleon said:


> If they're attacking with their claws and bite they won't be able to use their Flyby Attack to fly out of melee range.
> 
> How about:
> 
> Hama fight with claws and bite. They usually use their Flyby Attack feat to claw an opponent and fly out of melee range. A sorely pressed hama will use its ethereal shift ability to escape.




Sounds good.


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## Cleon (May 9, 2012)

Shade said:


> ...and yet you just proposed the same thing in the OA thread!




I contain multitudes, so there is plenty of room for differing opinions. 

Besides, the Hama has a fair amount of background information, while the Flying Spirits have practically nothing.


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## freyar (May 10, 2012)

And this background information:


> Those who die by violence or with some important duty unfulfilled leave their hama tethered to the Prime Material Plane, seeking to right things before they leave.
> ...
> Hama are always solitary and always driven to accomplish some task, usually simple vengeance. There have been cases of hama who await the arrival of a beloved, the return of something that they have lost, or the proper disposal of an estate or inheritance; some simply watch over and protect children they could not bear to leave. The tasks that hold a spirit bird to the world are broad, but in most cases they are centered around a specific person or location.
> ...
> After their task is accomplished, hama depart for their final reward on the outer planes. Until then they only react to creatures related to their final tasks or creatures able to assist them with their goals.



makes it sound like they can't depart for the outer planes until they have finished their task.  The logic of these monsters strongly implies rejuvenation, as most of this language is very similar to ghosts.


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## Shade (May 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> And this background information:
> 
> makes it sound like they can't depart for the outer planes until they have finished their task.  The logic of these monsters strongly implies rejuvenation, as most of this language is very similar to ghosts.




Agreed.  Make it so!


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## Cleon (May 12, 2012)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Make it so!




Well, how about we do like I suggested for the Cackling Bones and have the Hama take a long time to rejuvenate - say, a year or seven.

That way, if when the PCs "kill" a hama it's effectively out of the picture.


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## freyar (May 15, 2012)

Shoot, even the few days needed for a ghost to rejuvenate is effectively out of the picture in many cases.  

But it's ok to go for a year if you insist.  EDIT: then PCs tied to a city or something would be forced to interact with one again.


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## Cleon (May 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Shoot, even the few days needed for a ghost to rejuvenate is effectively out of the picture in many cases.
> 
> But it's ok to go for a year if you insist.  EDIT: then PCs tied to a city or something would be forced to interact with one again.




Care to write it up then?


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## freyar (May 17, 2012)

I was just waiting for agreement. 

Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a hama through simple combat: The “destroyed” spirit will often restore itself in 1 year. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. A hama that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + hama’s HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a hama for sure is to determine its incomplete task and help it to accomplish its goal. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.  Even when its task is complete, a hama may linger in order to provide a reward for its helpers, although it can no longer rejuvenate if destroyed.


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## Shade (May 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> I was just waiting for agreement.
> 
> Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a hama through simple combat: The “destroyed” spirit will often restore itself in 1 year. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. A hama that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + hama’s HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a hama for sure is to determine its incomplete task and help it to accomplish its goal. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.  Even when its task is complete, a hama may linger in order to provide a reward for its helpers, although it can no longer rejuvenate if destroyed.




I'll agree.


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## Cleon (May 18, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'll agree.




Looks OK, shall I add it to the Working Draft?


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## freyar (May 21, 2012)

Please do.


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## Shade (May 22, 2012)

Certainly!


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## Cleon (May 22, 2012)

Shade said:


> Certainly!




 Updating the *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (May 23, 2012)

We can drop the Small version right?

Tactics: Hama rely on their Demoralizing Appearance to avoid fights, but they swoop upon their opponents with their talons when forced to attack.  When sorely pressed, hama use their Ethereal Shift ability as a safe escape route.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> We can drop the Small version right?






freyar said:


> Tactics: Hama rely on their Demoralizing Appearance to avoid fights, but they swoop upon their opponents with their talons when forced to attack.  When sorely pressed, hama use their Ethereal Shift ability as a safe escape route.




Wouldn't it usually be simpler for them to fly away from a fight they want to avoid?

What do you think of this...

A hama will fight if it would further whatever purpose ties them to the Material Plane. If it wishes to avoid combat, a hama will fly away or try to scare its opponents into leaving. A fighting hama prefers to use its Flyby Attack feat to make hit-and-run attacks, it usually only makes full attacks when attacking a particularly hated opponent or it the hama is unable to maneuver. A cornered hama can use its Ethereal Shift ability as a safe escape route.


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## freyar (May 28, 2012)

Very good!


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## Cleon (May 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> Very good!




Very *Updated*!


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2012)

A bird with a shimmering glow.

??


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> A bird with a shimmering glow.
> 
> ??




I can't help thinking that sounds like the start of a limerick...

_A bird with a shimmering glow,
with the face of your long dead beaux.
Cries "I've come back from the dead,
To make sure you're not misled!
My real will's in the back of the bureaux!_


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## freyar (Jun 7, 2012)

That'll do for description and flavor.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> That'll do for description and flavor.




And an adventure seed!


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2012)

Since Shade probably won't let us get away with that, let's start with this. 

Hama are spirits of the dead that remain tied to our world due to some unfinished task.....


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> Since Shade probably won't let us get away with that, let's start with this.
> 
> Hama are spirits of the dead that remain tied to our world due to some unfinished task.....




How about "tied to our world _by their desire to fulfil_ some unfinished task"?


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

That sounds good.  

Hama are spirits of the dead that remain tied to our world by their desire to fulfill some unfinished task.  They resemble spirit birds... ???


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> That sounds good.
> 
> Hama are spirits of the dead that remain tied to our world by their desire to fulfill some unfinished task.  They resemble spirit birds... ???




Let's see...

_A semi-transparent bird the size of an eagle or snowy owl. Its body glows faintly and its eyes are full of bright fire._

Hama are spirits of the dead that remain tied to our world by their desire to fulfill some unfinished task. During the day hama look like ordinary birds, although they might be of unusual size, but at night they take on a glowing ghostly appearance. The bird form of a hama invariably reflects the personality of the soul it formed from. Eagle or owl are the most common forms of hama, followed by sparrow, nightingale, parrot, falcon, peacock, and vulture.

A hama is always driven to accomplish a specific task; in most cases this task centers around a particular person or location. Hamas are solitary creatures who rarely stray far from their territory (or the subject of their obsession). If a hama's task is fulfilled the spirit bird departs for the afterlife, although good-aligned hama may delay their departure to reward creatures who helped release them from their mortal ties.

  Hama can not speak, but understand all  languages. They can sing or  squawk like the bird they resemble, which  sometimes offer clues to their  intentions or desires.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

Whew, you are so much better at that than I.  However, I'd take out the comma before "but understand all languages."


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> Whew, you are so much better at that than I.  However, I'd take out the comma before "but understand all languages."




Better change it to "Hama, can not speak but understand, all  languages" then! 

Updating the *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2012)

All done, right?


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> All done, right?




I don't think there's anything left to do.

Well apart from filling the Xs in its Demoralising Appearance...



Cleon said:


> *Demoralizing Appearance (Su):* Any living  creature with 1 Hit  Dice or less that sees a hama must succeed at a DC X  Will save or be  frightened for X rounds, fleeing in the most  expeditious manner  available. This is a mind-affecting fear effect, the  save DC is  Charisma-based.




The DC works out to 12.

I'll update the *Working Draft* with 1d3 rounds for the duration.

Is that OK by you?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2012)

Sure thing!


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure thing!




In that case we're done with this beastie.


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## Number 6 (Jul 9, 2012)

What creatures are left to us?


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## Cleon (Jul 9, 2012)

Number 6 said:


> What creatures are left to us?




Well the *Pocket reference: Creatures from the Al-Qadim setting* list hasn't been updated for a while, but I'm not seeing entries in the Creature Catalog for:

Ammut
Black Cloud of Vengeance
Bloodring
Coelenite
Living Idols (Animal, Death, Elemental, Healing)
Werehyena
Pahari
Rom
Serpent, Herald
Serpent, Teak
Talking Bird
Vilirij
Winged Cat (Lesser & Greater)
Wizard Lice

Haven't we already done the Coelenite and Rom?

Hmm, I can't see them in the *Finished creatures awaiting upload to the CC* list. Maybe I was mistaken.


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## Echohawk (Jul 10, 2012)

Yeah, I agree with that assessment.

Ammut - updated in an unofficial source
Black Cloud of Vengeance - updated in an unofficial source
Bloodring - not yet updated
Coelenite - updated in an unofficial source
Living Idols - updated in an unofficial source
Werehyena - updated in an unofficial source
Pahari - updated in an unofficial source
Rom - updated in an unofficial source
Serpent, Herald - updated in an unofficial source
Serpent, Teak - not yet updated
Talking Bird - not yet updated
Vilirij - not yet updated
Winged Cat (Lesser & Greater) - not yet updated
Wizard Lice - not yet updated

Pick one of the "not yet updated" ones, since those reduce the total number of unconverted, while doing one of the ones that already has an unofficial conversion doesn't


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> Yeah, I agree with that assessment.
> 
> Ammut - updated in an unofficial source
> Black Cloud of Vengeance - updated in an unofficial source
> ...




I'd like to do the Werehyena in the *Lycanthrope* thread some time, but that can wait.

Hmm, the *Bloodring* and *Vilirij* are both blood-sucking parasite, making them pretty boring Hazard. *Wizard Lice* and spell-sucking parasites, which makes them a _little_ more interesting.

The *Talking Bird* has a fine pedigree in Arabian folklore but isn't a particularly terrible threat to PCs...

I like the *Winged Cats* the most (since I'm fond of kitties), but I'm not sure how much they are Al-Qadim creatures. Also, how similar are they to the Tressym Winged Cat? That already has official 3.5 stats, I believe.

That leaves the *Teak Serpent*, so let's do that. It's a worthwhile monster, and we've already got a bunch of serpentine monsters awaiting update, so it won't be without company. I'd fancy doing the Herald Serpent too.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2012)

Here's the original stats for the Teak Serpent.

*Serpent, Teak*
*Climate/Terrain: *Tropical/forests 
*Frequency: *Rare 
*Organization: *Solitary 
*Activity Cycle: *Any 
*Diet: *Carnivore 
*Intelligence: *Animal (1) 
*Treasure: *B, Q (x10), S, T 
*Alignment: *Neutral 
*No. Appearing: *1-2 
*Armor Class: *3 
*Movement: *9, Cl 6 
*Hit Dice: *8+8 
*THAC0: *11 
*No. of Attacks: *2 
*Damage/Attack: *1d6/2d6 
*Special Attacks: *Constriction, surprise 
*Special Defenses: *Camouflage 
*Magic Resistance: *Nil 
*Size: *H (30’ long) 
*Morale: *Average (10) 
*XP Value: *3,000

Two rare varieties of serpents can be found in the teeming eastern jungles of Zakhara, often in the company of other intelligent reptilian creatures.

*Teak Serpent*
Teak serpents are a variety of huge constrictor snakes inhabiting the teak and ironwood forests of Zakhara. Adults often reach lengths exceeding 30’.

*Combat:* These reptiles resemble branches of the hardwood trees they inhabit, lending them a -2 bonus on surprise and a superior Armor Class (AC 3).

Teak serpents wait patiently in the upper canopy of trees for an unsuspecting victim to pass underneath, attacking from above with a combination bite (1d6 points of damage) and constriction attack. If a constriction attack is successful, the serpent will have wound part of its massive length around the victim, squeezing for 2d6 points of damage. The coils of a teak serpent are stronger than ironwood, requiring the combined efforts of 80 points of Strength to release a trapped victim. With their prodigious length, one of these serpents can constrict up to three human-sized victims simultaneously!

*Habitat/Society:* Because of their ferocity and immense size, teak serpents are feared in the jungles they inhabit. Teak serpents usually subsist on a diet of large animals (preferring baby elephants, when they are available), but they will attack a small group of human-sized creatures without hesitation. They often sleep for up to a week after feeding. 

*Ecology:* The scales of a teak serpent, if used while casting _barkskin_, provide a +2 bonus to Armor Class for the duration of the spell. In the eastern jungles, teak serpents are sometimes captured by powerful kahins and bound into magic staves (see _staff of the teak serpent_ in Chapter Seven of the Campaign Guide).

_Originally appeared in Al-Qadim: Ruined Kingdoms (1994)_

The Teak Serpent also appeared in _Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995__)_ with basically identical stats. The only significant difference is the Treasure, which is:

*Treasure: *Nil (B, Qx10, S, T)


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2012)

Looking at that, it doesn't look that different from a standard oversized Constrictor Snake. It just has tougher scales.

It has less HD than the SRD Giant Constrictor.

However, an AD&D Giant Constrictor Snake has 6+1 HD and is Large (30'+ long), suggesting we should do one of the following:


Make it a Large monster with 8 Hit Dice.
Make it a Huge monster and give it more Hit Dice than the SRD Giant Constrictor's 11 HD.
Since the AD&D Teak Serpent does more damage than an AD&D Giant Constrictor (1d6/2d6 instead of 1d4/1d8) and _likes to eat baby elephants_. I'd go for Option 2.

Give it 16 Hit Dice?

Probably increase the Strength and Constitution significantly. Maybe +4 to both? I was tempted to reduce the Dexterity by -2 as well.

For its "scales harder than ironwood", I'd suggest giving it a higher natural armor and DR 6/—, since ordinary wood is hardness 5 and I don't want to make it as hard as stone (8/—) or actual iron (10/—).

I'm thinking +9 NA (AC 20), but would go for +7 or +8 NA.

It also needs a heft racial bonus to Hide checks when in forests.

Shall I start a Working Draft with the above?


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2012)

Well I got bored, so I've started a Working Draft of the Teak Serpent using the above proposals.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2012)

*Teak Serpent Working Draft*

*Snake, Teak Serpent*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 16d8+48 (120 hp)
*Initiative:* +7
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 20 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +9 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+29
*Attack:* Bite +20 melee (1d8+13)
*Full Attack:* Bite +20 melee (1d8+13)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./ 10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Constrict 2d6+13, improved grab, multiconstrict
*Special Qualities:* Damage reduction 6/—, scent
*Saves:* Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +8
*Abilities:* Str 29, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +17, Hide +12*, Move Silently +10, Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +17
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm forests
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* Standard coins, double items (gems and jewelery only), 25% items
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 17–20 HD (Huge); 21-48 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A vast snake resembling a small crawling teak tree, with craggy gray-brown hide like bark._

Teak serpents are a type of huge constrictor snake that inhabit forests  of tropical hardwoods such as teak or ironwood. They look very much like  a thick hardwood tree branch, excellent camouflage for when they're  waiting patiently beside a jungle path for prey to pass them by. Teak  serpents are much feared by locals for their prodigious size and  ferocity. These reptiles usually eat large jungle animals, but will  attack smaller victims. They have no hesitancy about attacking small  groups of humanoids. A teak serpent's favorite meal is a baby elephant.

A teak serpent is typically 30 feet long and weighs around 1200 pounds.

*Combat*
 Teak serpents normally hide in trees and drop upon prey that pass  underneath, but may ambush opponents by hiding in undergrowth or water  sources. The serpent constricts as many victims as possible and bites at  any others that remain within reach.

*Constrict (Ex):* On a successful grapple check, a teak serpent deals 2d6+13 points of damage.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a teak serpent must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

*Multiconstrict (Ex):* A teak serpent can constrict several opponents simultaneously as a standard action. The teak serpent may use multiconstrict against as many opponents as its Dexterity bonus (minimum 1), as long as none are larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent. The serpent rolls separate grapple checks against each multiconstricted opponent with a -5 penalty on its grapple checks. If it chooses to remain ungrappled itself, the serpent takes a -10 penalty on its grapple checks instead of the normal –20 penalty.

*Skills:* Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A teak serpent’s racial bonus to Hide checks improves to +8 when the snake is in a forested area.

_Originally appeared in Al-Qadim: Ruined Kingdoms (1994)_.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2012)

I'll go along with all that.  

To make this a little more interesting, I think we could justify doing a "multi-constrict," so it can grab and constrict several victims at once.  Or is a monster with imp grab normally allowed to do that if it takes the -20 penalty to be considered not grappling?


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'll go along with all that.
> 
> To make this a little more interesting, I think we could justify doing a "multi-constrict," so it can grab and constrict several victims at once.  Or is a monster with imp grab normally allowed to do that if it takes the -20 penalty to be considered not grappling?




I'd be fine with that, do you want to use the same three Medium-size victim limit? How does it change if the serpent gets bigger or littler?

The RAW are pretty weird about grappling multiple opponents. You can attempt to secure a hold on a single opponent per attack you can make, but there's no set limit as to how many opponents you can hold simultaneously.

You must move into an opponent's space to maintain a grapple, so I suppose the limit is however many opponent's will fit into the grappler's space - our Teak Serpent is Huge, so that would be nine Small or Medium opponents.

Regardless, a standard Constrict attack affects a single target, since the RAW say "*an* opponent" per grapple check.


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2012)

You know, this is one case where I don't mind spelling things out to avoid confusion.  Why don't we say it can grapple and constrict up to 1 victim per 3 squares of its space?


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> You know, this is one case where I don't mind spelling things out to avoid confusion.  Why don't we say it can grapple and constrict up to 1 victim per 3 squares of its space?




Seems a bit odd, what about with bigger or smaller victims?

A simple 1 victim per 3 squares means it could multi-constrict 3 victims up to Gargantuan size (its max grapple limit), it needs an additional criteria.

I suppose we could make it victims who occupy a total space up to one third the serpent's space, but that would mean it can  grapple 4 Tiny opponents instead of a Medium foe.

How about it can multi-constrict multiple victims if they're up to 2 sizes smaller than itself, but can not constrict more victims simultaneously than its Dexterity bonus (minimum 1).

So, three Medium for an average +3 Dex bonus Teak Constrictor.


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2012)

Hmm, so normal imp grab on up to 1 size smaller, multi-grab/constrict up to 2 sizes smaller?  That works out nicely.  Let's see how it looks:

Multiconstrict (Ex): A teak serpent can hold and constrict several victims simultaneously as long as all are no larger than 2 size categories smaller than the serpent, even though it has only one natural attack.  The teak serpent can constrict one opponent per point of Dexterity bonus (minimum 1).  In order to grapple an opponent, the teak serpent must not be considered to be grappled.

By the way, here's about multiple grapples.  Interesting.


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmm, so normal imp grab on up to 1 size smaller, multi-grab/constrict up to 2 sizes smaller?  That works out nicely.  Let's see how it looks:
> 
> Multiconstrict (Ex): A teak serpent can hold and constrict several victims simultaneously as long as all are no larger than 2 size categories smaller than the serpent, even though it has only one natural attack.  The teak serpent can constrict one opponent per point of Dexterity bonus (minimum 1).  In order to grapple an opponent, the teak serpent must not be considered to be grappled.
> 
> By the way, here's about multiple grapples.  Interesting.




Needs work. For a start, the wording doesn't seem very clear.

How about something like the "Master Grappler" ability some Grell have that allow them to reduce the "stay in a grapple and do something else" penalty from -20 to -10.

I'll have to look that one up.


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2012)

Revising (don't have my grells with me, but making a guess at master grappler)...

Multiconstrict (Ex): A teak serpent can hold and constrict several victims simultaneously. The teak serpent may constrict up to one opponent per point of the serpent's Dexterity bonus (minimum 1) as long as none is larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent.

Master Grappler (Ex): If a teak serpent chooses to hold an opponent, it takes a -10 penalty to grapple checks but is not considered to be grappled (in contrast to the normal -20 penalty).


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Revising (don't have my grells with me, but making a guess at master grappler)...
> 
> Multiconstrict (Ex): A teak serpent can hold and constrict several victims simultaneously. The teak serpent may constrict up to one opponent per point of the serpent's Dexterity bonus (minimum 1) as long as none is larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent.




That wording stills seems a bit unclear. How about:

*Multiconstrict 2 (Ex):* A teak serpent can constrict several opponents   simultaneously as a standard action. The teak serpent may constrict as  many opponents as its Dexterity bonus (minimum 1), as long  as none are larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent.



freyar said:


> Master Grappler (Ex): If a teak serpent chooses to hold an opponent, it takes a -10 penalty to grapple checks but is not considered to be grappled (in contrast to the normal -20 penalty).




Hold on, I'll try to find it.

Ah, here we are:

*Expert Grappler (Ex)* A grell that chooses to grapple with one tentacle and remain ungrappled itself takes only a –10 penalty on its grapple checks instead of the normal –20 penalty.

Which would become something like:

*Expert Grappler 2 (Ex)* A teak serpent that chooses to grapple opponents and remain ungrappled itself takes only a –10 penalty on its  grapple checks instead of the normal –20 penalty.

Speaking of grapple checks, does the Teak Serpent roll separate grapple checks for each multiconstricted opponent, or just a single grapple check? 

You know, upon reflection we don't really need a separate "Expert Grappler" SA, we can just fold it into Multiconstrict:

*Multiconstrict 3 (Ex):* A teak serpent can constrict several opponents   simultaneously as a standard action. The teak serpent may constrict as  many opponents as its Dexterity bonus (minimum 1), as long  as none are larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent. The serpent rolls seperate grapple checks against each constricted opponent, with a -10 penalty on its  grapple checks instead of the normal –20 penalty.

Will that do?


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2012)

Almost!

Take 4:
*Multiconstrict (Ex):* A teak serpent can constrict several opponents simultaneously as a standard action. The teak serpent may constrict as many opponents as its Dexterity bonus (minimum 1), as long as none are larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent. The serpent rolls seperate grapple checks against each constricted opponent.  If it chooses to remain ungrappled itself, the serpent takes a -10 penalty on its grapple checks instead of the normal –20 penalty.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Almost!
> 
> Take 4:
> *Multiconstrict (Ex):* A teak serpent can constrict several opponents simultaneously as a standard action. The teak serpent may constrict as many opponents as its Dexterity bonus (minimum 1), as long as none are larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent. The serpent rolls seperate grapple checks against each constricted opponent.  If it chooses to remain ungrappled itself, the serpent takes a -10 penalty on its grapple checks instead of the normal –20 penalty.




Dang it, I did the old "seperate" typo. Better fix that.

Anyhow. I want the "grappling multiple opponents checks" to be at a penalty even if it "chooses to remain grappled". Indeed, I wouldn't care if it has the normal -20 to remain ungrappled while constricting two or three creatures simultaneously.

The -20 penalty is to grapple checks to maintain a hold at the same time as the grappler is doing something else (like a regular attack)? In this case it's not trying to "ungrapple" to do something else (move, bite, etc) its trying to grapple three opponents at the same time:

Come to think of it. Where does that "-20 to act as if ungrappled" rule appear? I can't find it in the SRD Combat section on grappling.

So, how about this:

*Multiconstrict 5 (Ex):* A teak serpent can constrict several  opponents   simultaneously as a standard action. The teak serpent may  constrict as  many opponents as its Dexterity bonus (minimum 1), as long   as none are larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent.  The serpent rolls separate grapple checks against each constricted  opponent, with a -10 penalty on its  grapple checks.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2012)

The -20 is from the Improved Grab rules.  It's what would allow the serpent to grapple the second or third opponent in the first place!  But we can leave that at -20 if you like.  I personally don't want it to take as much of a penalty when it's just holding 3 characters, since it's supposed to be good at constricting.  Could we compromise at -5?


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> The -20 is from the Improved Grab rules.  It's what would allow the serpent to grapple the second or third opponent in the first place!  But we can leave that at -20 if you like.  I personally don't want it to take as much of a penalty when it's just holding 3 characters, since it's supposed to be good at constricting.  Could we compromise at -5?




Thanks. I knew it was in there somewhere, I just couldn't find it.

Yeah, I was worried -10 was a bit high too.

Hmm...

How about it's -5 for a normal multiconstrict AND it "opt to not be considered grappled itself" at -10 à la Expert Grappler?


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## freyar (Jul 24, 2012)

That sounds fine.

Multiconstrict (Ex): A teak serpent can constrict several opponents simultaneously as a standard action. The teak serpent may constrict as many opponents as its Dexterity bonus (minimum 1), as long as none are larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent. The serpent rolls seperate grapple checks against each constricted opponent with a -5 penalty on its grapple checks. If it chooses to remain ungrappled itself, the serpent takes a -10 penalty on its grapple checks instead of the normal –20 penalty.


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## Cleon (Jul 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> That sounds fine.
> 
> Multiconstrict (Ex): A teak serpent can constrict several opponents simultaneously as a standard action. The teak serpent may constrict as many opponents as its Dexterity bonus (minimum 1), as long as none are larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent. The serpent rolls seperate grapple checks against each constricted opponent with a -5 penalty on its grapple checks. If it chooses to remain ungrappled itself, the serpent takes a -10 penalty on its grapple checks instead of the normal –20 penalty.




I suggest we include the following modification to make it clear it's applying Multi-Constrict:
*
Multiconstrict (Ex):* A teak serpent can constrict several opponents  simultaneously as a standard action. The teak serpent may use multiconstrict against as  many opponents as its Dexterity bonus (minimum 1), as long as none are  larger than two size categories smaller than the serpent. The serpent  rolls separate grapple checks against each multiconstricted opponent with a  -5 penalty on its grapple checks. If it chooses to remain ungrappled  itself, the serpent takes a -10 penalty on its grapple checks instead of  the normal –20 penalty.


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## freyar (Jul 25, 2012)

Sure thing.  Ready for skills and feats?


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure thing.  Ready for skills and feats?




Hold on while I update the *Teak Serpent Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure thing.  Ready for skills and feats?




A standard Huge Constrictor has Str 25, Dex 17, Wis 12, Alertness and SF (Hide), giving it skills as follows:

Skill Ranks (15): Balance 0, Climb 2, Hide 8, Listen 2, Spot 2, Swim 1
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +17, Hide +10, Listen +9, Spot +9, Swim +16

It ought to have 14 skill points but its ranks add up to 15 - they let 1 slip in there.

The Teak serpent currently has:
Skill Ranks (12 assigned): Balance 0, Climb 0, Hide 8, Listen 2, Spot 2, Swim 0

I'd give it Stealthy, a point more Listen and Spot and add the rest in Move Silently.

Skill Ranks (19 assigned): Balance 0, Climb 0, Hide 8, Move Silently 5, Listen 3, Spot 3, Swim 0

*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +17, Hide +12*, Move Silently +10, Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +17
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite), *[plus one]*


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## freyar (Jul 26, 2012)

I can go with those skills and feats.  What about Snatch, so it can toss characters around?  Or else Iron Will.  That Will save is pretty weak.


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## Cleon (Jul 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> I can go with those skills and feats.




Updating the *Teak Serpent Working Draft* 	with skills & feats.



freyar said:


> I can go with those skills and feats.  What about  Snatch, so it can toss characters around?  Or else Iron Will.  That Will  save is pretty weak.




Snatch doesn't seem terribly useful. It _wants_ to keep hold of victims to crush & eat them - why would it toss them away and give them a chance to escape?

Iron Will seems more useful.


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2012)

Iron Will it is.  I just like the image of a big snake tossing people around. 

I'm ok with the proposed treasure, but where does it come from?  The frost worm and remorhaz have no treasure, and the purple worm has 50% goods.  I guess I'd probably rather go with none or a more incidental value.  The serpent's not going to pick any treasure up.


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> Iron Will it is.  I just like the image of a big snake tossing people around.
> 
> I'm ok with the proposed treasure, but where does it come from?  The frost worm and remorhaz have no treasure, and the purple worm has 50% goods.  I guess I'd probably rather go with none or a more incidental value.  The serpent's not going to pick any treasure up.




Well it follows the original, which had extremely good treasure for its stats:



Cleon said:


> *Serpent, Teak*
> *Treasure: *B, Q (x10), S, T
> 
> _Originally appeared in Al-Qadim: Ruined Kingdoms (1994)_
> ...




Those treasure types are as follows:

*Type B:
*1,000-6,000 copper pieces: 50%
1,000-3,000 silver pieces: 25%
200-2,000 gold pieces: 25%
100-1,800 platinum or electrum pieces: 25%
1-8 gems: 30%
1-4 art objects: 20%
Armor or Weapon magical items: 10%

*Type Q:
*1-4 gems

*Type S:
*1-8 potions


*Type T:
*1-4 scrolls

That's more like standard treasure plus double gems than the version in the rough draft.

The original MC entry does not explain _why_ they have so much treasure - so why don't we make something up!


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2012)

Well, in that case, I'd be happy with what you have proposed. 

Maybe they're like crows and just like shiny things?  That would explain the paucity of items.  It could be something like standard coins, double goods (all gems), 10% items or something.


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## Cleon (Jul 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, in that case, I'd be happy with what you have proposed.
> 
> Maybe they're like crows and just like shiny things?  That would explain the paucity of items.  It could be something like standard coins, double goods (all gems), 10% items or something.




Well I did wonder if they came up with the idea from The Valley of Serpents in one of the Voyages of Sinbad the Sailor, since that valley was full of diamonds.

However, I was thinking it made more sense if they collected the coins & gems - maybe they build shiny displays to impress mates? Furthermore, if they tend to reuse lairs, they could "inherit" the treasure of previous generations.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2012)

That will work for me.  What did you think about the revised treasure line I suggested above?


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> That will work for me.  What did you think about the revised treasure line I suggested above?




I prefer the 25% items in the current draft, so how about:

*Treasure:* Standard coins, double items (gems and jewelery only), 25% items?


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2012)

Sure!


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure!




Updating the *Teak Serpent Working Draft* 	with treasure.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2012)

CR around 8?
Advancement looks ok.


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> CR around 8?
> Advancement looks ok.




I'm not sure it's three CR better than a regular Giant Constrictor, but then I'm also thinking the SRD Giant Constrictor is a bit under-CR'd.

So Challenge Rating 8 is OK.


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2012)

Tactics: Teak serpents hide among high leaves and branches deep in forests.  When prey passes underneath, the serpent drops upon its victims, constricting as many as possible and biting any others that remain close by.


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> Tactics: Teak serpents hide among high leaves and branches deep in forests.  When prey passes underneath, the serpent drops upon its victims, constricting as many as possible and biting any others that remain close by.




We could simplify that a bit, and I'd add some alternative ambush venues.

How about:

Teak serpents normally hide in trees and drop upon prey that pass underneath, but may ambush opponents by hiding in undergrowth or water sources. The serpent constricts as many victims as possible and bites at any others that remain within reach.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2012)

That gives them a good use for the swim speed.  I like it!

I'm feeling a bit blank on description and background for these.


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> That gives them a good use for the swim speed.  I like it!




Updating the *Teak Serpent Working Draft* 	with treasure.



freyar said:


> I'm feeling a bit blank on description and background for these.




_A vast snake resembling a small crawling teak tree, with craggy gray-brown hide like bark._

Teak serpents are a type of huge constrictor snake that inhabit forests of tropical hardwoods such as teak or ironwood. They look very much like a thick hardwood tree branch, excellent camouflage for when they're waiting patiently beside a jungle path for prey to pass them by. Teak serpents are much feared by locals for their prodigious size and ferocity. These reptiles usually eat large jungle animals, but will attack smaller victims. They have no hesitancy about attacking small groups of humanoids. A teak serpent's favorite meal is a baby elephant.

A teak serpent is typically 30 feet long and weighs around 1200 pounds.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2012)

That looks good to me.  Give them that, add CR 8, and drop the ? from the advancement, and I think we're good to go.


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## Cleon (Aug 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> That looks good to me.  Give them that, add CR 8, and drop the ? from the advancement, and I think we're good to go.




 Updating the *Teak Serpent Working Draft*.

Looks pretty finished.

What were we doing next?


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2012)

Yup, looks done.

Hmmmm.  [MENTION=9849]Echohawk[/MENTION] has Al-Qadim listed as finished, although there may be "generic" critters found in Al-Qadim products we could convert here.  You have any ideas?


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## Cleon (Aug 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yup, looks done.
> 
> Hmmmm.   @Echohawk  has Al-Qadim listed as finished, although there may be "generic" critters found in Al-Qadim products we could convert here.  You have any ideas?




I fancy converting the Al-Qadim Werehyena, since that doesn't have official 3E stats.

We were talking about doing the Ammut too, if I recall correctly.


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2012)

Pick one and post the stats, if you like.


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> Pick one and post the stats, if you like.




I'll go for the Werehyena then.


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2012)

*Lycanthrope, Werehyena
* *Climate/Terrain:* Tropical/Deserts and plains
*Frequency:* Uncommon
*Organization:* Pack
*Activity Cycle:* Day
*Diet:* Scavenger
*Intelligence:* Very (11-12)
*Treasure:* Qx10 each
*Alignment:* Neutral evil
*No. Appearing:* 2-12
*Armor Class:* 5
*Movement:* 12
*Hit Dice:* 5+1
*THAC0:* 15
*No. of Attacks:* 1
*Damage/Attack:* 2-12 or by weapon
*Special Attacks:* See below
*Special Defenses:* Iron or +1 weapon to hit, immune to enchantment/charm spells
*Magic Resistance:* Nil
*Size:* M (5-6' tall)
*Morale:* Average (8-10)
*XP Value:* 1,400

Werehyenas are humans, usually male, who can transform themselves into hyenalike forms. Their packs roam the plains and deserts of Zakhara looking for prey.

The human form tends to be tall and sinewy, with long, shaggy hair usually tied back over their neck. The long hair conceals a second mouth at the base of the head, which mimics the lip movements of the primary mouth but makes no sound. They take great pains to keep this second mouth hidden. In their human forms, werehyenas tend to be gregarious and charismatic, many possessing a loud, resounding laugh.

The canine form appears to be a large hyena, over 6' long from snout to tail, with golden fur on its back and black fur on its belly and feet. While in this form, they can pass without trace.

It is not uncommon for a pack of these creatures to be followed by 2-12 normal hyenas. The normal hyenas are attracted to the lycanthropes, although not under their direct control.

*Combat:* In its human form, a werehyena will attack with a weapon appropriate for its assumed identity. However, in this form, a werehyena's best weapon is its charming personality, which it uses to gain others' confidence. Once per round, at will, a werehyena can bring into effect a _friends_ spell (assume that it has a Charisma of 14-15 before the spell is cast) as if the spell were cast by a 12th-level wizard. This spell-like ability is not memorized or learned; it comes naturally to the creature and is triggered by thought.

In its hyena form, a werehyena attacks with its vicious bite, which inflicts 2-12 points of damage. On a natural attack roll of 19 or 20, the werehyena has locked its jaws on a victim. This has two effects: first, the victim will be automatically subject to damage from a bite attack on subsequent rounds (no further attack rolls needed for the werehyena); second, the weight of the creature will slow the victim down, reducing his or her movement rate by 6 (cumulative). After it has locked its jaws on a victim, a werehyena will release its bite only after suffering more than 10 points of damage.

In either of its forms, a werehyena can only be affected by magical or iron weapons. Other types of weapons initially appear to inflict damage, but the wound closes by the end of the round. Werehyenas are immune to enchantment/charm spells. All werehyenas have a primal fear of fire, preferring to make appearances and attacks during the day. A flaming torch is enough to keep one at bay; over six points of fire damage will send one howling off into the wilderness. If cornered by fire, however, they will fight to defend themselves.

*Habitat/Society:* Werehyenas travel in close-knit packs of up to a dozen creatures, most of whom are males. The pack is run by a dominant male, who makes all important decisions, reinforcing them with an occasional, savage bite. Newly infected lycanthropes are welcomed into a pack only if the newcomer agrees to accept the pack leader's orders to the death. If not, a fight for dominance usually ensues, with the victor becoming the new pack leader.

Among themselves, they can be playful and capable of lasting intimacy. They mate for life, but only with other members of the pack. From one to four cubs are born with each litter; 75% of them are male.

Werehyena packs scour the desert and plains in human form, seeking human settlements to infiltrate. A favorite ploy is for a single lycanthrope to enter a town or village and use its _friends_ ability to win its way into the hearts of the people. Some are even known to shower gifts on "a long-forgotten sister" or relative. The gifts are typically small gems which it gathers for this purpose. The lycanthrope then lures the victim out of town to a trap, where the rest of the pack lies in wait.

*Ecology:* Werehyenas are covert hunters, preying on gullible humans whenever possible. However, like their normal cousins, they are excellent scavengers, capable of eating just about anything in order to survive. Although their numbers are great, they are too widely scattered to have any profound effect upon the ecology of Zakhara. 

_Originally appeared in MC13 Al-Qadim Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1992)._


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## freyar (Aug 16, 2012)

Hmmm.  I guess we could do this as an application of the lycanthrope template, but there are a few differences and extra abilities.  Make it a unique monster with a curse of lycanthropy attached?


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm.  I guess we could do this as an application of the lycanthrope template, but there are a few differences and extra abilities.  Make it a unique monster with a curse of lycanthropy attached?




I was definitely going to go for a unique monster.

You'll notice there's no mention of their bite causing Lycanthropy. That be because the author assumed its bite inflicts the curse as standard, since their called "Lycanthropes", but they have enough differences in abilities I'll happily drop the Curse of Lycanthropy from them. They don't have a hybrid form, for a start.

Indeed, I am leaning towards approaching these as some kind of "Hyenawere", since there's several similarities between them and Wolfweres in their general modus operandi (pretending to be innocent folk, using charming to lure victims into isolated spots, then the feast!).

Besides, that "second mouth" is just too weird for a standard Lycanthrope. 

The hyena form is 6 feet long and has a 2d6 damage bite, so I thought we should use a *Short-Faced Hyena* as a model for the animal form.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2012)

Well, there is the bit about "newly infected lycanthropes" in the first paragraph of "habitat/society."  But I'd be happy to make them "hyenaweres" and drop the curse, too.

Agreed on the second mouth!

And the short-faced hyena is also 5HD.  So, does 5HD sound good to you?


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## Cleon (Aug 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, there is the bit about "newly infected lycanthropes" in the first paragraph of "habitat/society."  But I'd be happy to make them "hyenaweres" and drop the curse, too.




We could make them Magical Beasts with a "Curse of Therianthropy" or "Curse of the Hyena" that can transform humanoids into more of their kind?



freyar said:


> And the short-faced hyena is also 5HD.  So, does 5HD sound good to you?




Yes, I'd already noted that convenient HD correspondent.

Making them 5 HD works for me.


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm not particularly enamored of them cursing bite victims, so I'm happy to drop it if you are.

Magical Beast, I guess, like the jagweres.  

The short-faced hyena has Str 20, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6.  Do you just want to adjust that (and base the humanoid form on) the standard, elite, or non-elite array?


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## Cleon (Aug 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'm not particularly enamored of them cursing bite victims, so I'm happy to drop it if you are.
> 
> Magical Beast, I guess, like the jagweres.




That works for me.



freyar said:


> The short-faced hyena has Str 20, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6.   Do you just want to adjust that (and base the humanoid form on) the  standard, elite, or non-elite array?




The MC13 Werehyena is very intelligent and it has mind-affecting supernatural attacks, suggesting we should boost its Int and Cha considerably.

Its AC is also two better than the AD&D short-faced hyena, so I'd give it the +2 natural armor bonus that's standard for Lycanthropes.

I'll start a Working Draft.


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## Cleon (Aug 22, 2012)

*Hyenawere Working Draft*

*Hyenawere
*Large Magical Beast (Shapechanger)
*Hit Dice:* 5d10+10 (37 hp)
*Initiative:* +6
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+14
*Attack:* Bite +9 melee (2d6+7)
*Full Attack:* Bite +9 melee (2d6+7)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Curse of the hyenawere, improved grab, trip
*Special Qualities:* Alternate form, damage resistance  5/cold iron, fear of flames, low-light vision, hyena empathy, immunity  to enchantment, keen scent, traceless path
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 20, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 14
*Skills:* Bluff +7, Diplomacy +8, Disguise +5 (+7 acting), Hide +1* (+5 in undergrowth), Listen +8, Move Silently +5, Spot +6
*Feats:* Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will (B)
*Environment:* Warm deserts and plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-4), or pack (2-12 plus 2-12 hyenas)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* 50% coins, triple goods (gems only), standard items
*Alignment:* Always neutral evil
*Advancement:* By character class
*Level Adjustment:* +4

_A hyena as large as a pony, with black fur on its belly and paws and a golden-furred back._

*Hyenawere, Humanoid Form
*Medium Magical Beast (Shapechanger)
*Hit Dice:* 5d10+10 (37 hp)
*Initiative:* +6
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (+2 Dex, +2 natural, +2 leather), touch 12, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+7
*Attack:* Spear +7 melee (1d8+3/×3) or spear +7 ranged (1d8+2/×3)
*Full Attack:* Spear +7 melee (1d8+3/×3) or spear +7 ranged (1d8+2/×3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Befriend
*Special Qualities:* Alternate form, damage resistance 5/cold iron, fear of flames, low-light vision, hyena empathy, immunity to enchantment, keen scent
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 14
*Skills:* Bluff +12, Diplomacy +13 (+8 as standard action), Disguise +5 (+7 acting), Hide +5, Listen +8, Move Silently +5, Spot +6
*Feats:* Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will (B)
*Environment:* Warm deserts and plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-4), or pack (2-12 plus 2-12 hyenas)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* 50% coins, triple goods (gems only), standard items
*Alignment:* Always neutral evil
*Advancement:* By character class
*Level Adjustment:* +4

_A lithe human with long, thick hair reaching past their shoulders.   Whoever it is seems friendly enough, judging by their easy going smile._

Hyenaweres are monstrous hyena therianthropes that shapechange into  human form to stalk humanoid victims. Their human form has a second  mouth at the base of the head, which noiselessly mimics the lip  movements of the creature's main mouth. A hyenawere is careful to keep  this extra mouth hidden, usually by growing their hair so it covers the  back of their neck.

Hyenaweres live in close-knit family packs led by the strongest member.  They  are playful and affectionate to each other, but have no compassion  for any creature outside the pack. The majority of hyenaweres are male.   They mate for life and produce litters of 1 to 4 pups, three-quarters  of  which will be boys.

Like normal hyenas, hyenaweres are excellent hunters and iron-stomached  scavengers who can eat garbage or carrion to survive. Their favorite   prey are humanoids. They often send a lone scout to infiltrate a band of  travelers or isolated village to pick out a victim. Hyenaweres collect  gemstones for the scouts to use as presents to help lure a victim to  where the pack waits in ambush.

Humanoids who survive a hyenawere bite may turn into hyenaweres  themselves. These newly transformed monsters are accepted into existing  packs if they swear fealty to the pack leader or defeat them in a fight.

A hyenawere in animal form is roughly 6 feet long, stands about three  feet at the shoulder and weighs up to 400 pounds. In human form they  tend to be tall and sinewy, averaging 6 feet tall and 160 pounds.

Hyenaweres speak Common.

*COMBAT*
Hyenaweres rarely pick a fair fight. Their  favorite tactic is using their Befriend  ability to lure unaware  individuals into an ambush far from  help.  Hyenaweres prefer to fight  in hyena form, but may remain as humanoids to use ranged weapons. They  usually attack during the day due to their primal fear of fire  travellers at night tend to have campfires or torches.

*Alternate Form (Su):* A hyenawere can assume the form of an enormous hyena (its natural form) or a Medium humanoid.

*Befriend (Su):* A hyenawere in humanoid form has an  uncannily  charming personality. It can make a Diplomacy  check to  change the attitudes of humanoids as a standard action, without the -10  penalty  for a rushed Diplomacy check. It has a +5 bonus to other Diplomacy checks and Bluff checks.

By focusing its personality on a single humanoid, it can convince that creature to become its friend. This works like a _charm person_  spell from a 12th level caster (Will DC 14). A humanoid  that  successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same  hyenawere's befriend ability for 24 hours. This is a supernatural, sonic   mind-affecting charm effect.

The befriend power does not affect other  hyenaweres. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Curse of the Hyenawere (Su):* Any humanoid hit by a hyenawere's bite  attack must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become a hyenawere the  next time there is a full moon. The victim loses all abilities it  possessed prior to transformation, becoming an ordinary hyenawere in all  respects except for the following: The "cursed hyenawere" does not have a  Curse of the Hyenawere special attack. A "cursed hyenawere" retains no  memory or interest in its former existence, but does retain any  equipment it carried. Cursed hyenaweres can be cured of their condition by  a _remove curse_ or _break enchantment_ cast on the hyenawere if the hyenawere succeeds on a DC 20 Will save.

*Fear of Flames (Ex):* A hyenawere that suffers fire damage from  an  attack must succeed on a Will save (DC = 10 for nonmagical fire, DC  of  spell or supernatural attack for magical fire) or become panicked  for  1d6 rounds.     

*Hyena Empathy (Ex):* Communicate with hyenas and dire hyenas, and +4 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against hyenas and dire hyenas.

*Immunity To Enchantment (Ex):* A hyenawere is immune to charm affects, including all spells of the Charm and Compulsion subschools.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a hyenawere in hyena form must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and automatically deals bite damage on each round it maintains the grapple.

*Keen Scent (Ex):* A hyenawere can notice creatures by scent at double the normal range (typically a 60-foot radius), and detect the scent of blood or a carcass at ranges of up to a mile.

*Traceless Path (Su):* A hyenawere in hyena form can move through  any kind of terrain while leaving neither footprints nor scent, making  nonmagical tracking impossible. It may choose to leave a trail if it  desires.

*Trip (Ex):* A hyenawere in hyena form that hits with its bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+9 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the hyenawere.

*Skills:* In hyena form, hyenaweres have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth.

_Originally appeared in MC13 Al-Qadim Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1992)._


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## freyar (Aug 23, 2012)

Since you're not modifying Dex or Con between the two forms, I guess we should stick with Str 20.  But I kind of think reducing all the physical stats in humanoid form would work.  Maybe Str 12 or 14, Dex and Con 11?

The rest looks pretty good.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Since you're not modifying Dex or Con between the two forms, I guess we should stick with Str 20.  But I kind of think reducing all the physical stats in humanoid form would work.  Maybe Str 12 or 14, Dex and Con 11?
> 
> The rest looks pretty good.




Ugh, no. If we reduce the Con it'll make the hit points all wonky, and I see no reason for making the smaller humanoid form so much clumsier than the hulking hyena form.

I'm fine reducing the Strength. The standard 8 Strength difference between Medium and Large would make it Str 12, but I lean towards Str 14. Although I'd be fine with 16 if you prefer it.


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2012)

This is odd.  I was about to say that lycanthropes change Con between forms, and it seems to me that the SRD template implies the hp should change between forms, too.  But then the example stats look like they use the appropriate Con modifier for the base creature, then for the base animal separately, then add.  But they don't seem to do it quite right for the hill giant, either.  Wonky.

Well, leaving Con the same is ok.  Str 14 in the humanoid form is fine.  How about reducing Dex also?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> This is odd.  I was about to say that lycanthropes change Con between forms, and it seems to me that the SRD template implies the hp should change between forms, too.  But then the example stats look like they use the appropriate Con modifier for the base creature, then for the base animal separately, then add.  But they don't seem to do it quite right for the hill giant, either.  Wonky.




The SRD Hill Giant Wereboar seems to include a Toughness feat on its Hill Giant levels which isn't listed in its Feats.

If you include that +3 hp for toughness its Hit Dice and Hit Points add up.



freyar said:


> Well, leaving Con the same is ok.  Str 14 in the humanoid form is fine.  How about reducing Dex also?




I'd rather keep it the same so the AC are equal in both forms, which seems to be the case for the original monster.

Besides, it keeps all the saves the same too.


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## freyar (Sep 5, 2012)

That would seem to argue with keeping the Str the same in both forms.  Are you happy with that, too?


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## Cleon (Sep 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> That would seem to argue with keeping the Str the same in both forms.  Are you happy with that, too?




A change to strength mainly changes stats that would change anyway when it assumes Hyena form, like its grapple & attack modifiers (which change due to its size increase) or Jump (which'll change due to its Speed increase).

Also, I prefer it being stronger in its hulking hyena form.


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2012)

As you like then.  Were we thinking of Str 14 for the humanoid form?  How about working out that friends ability now?


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> As you like then.  Were we thinking of Str 14 for the humanoid form?  How about working out that friends ability now?




You suggested 12 or 14 and I favoured 14 or _possibly_ 16, so we were both OK with 14.

I'll update the *Hyenawere Working Draft* with that.

Might as well fix that "Hyenawere, Wolf Form" while I'm at it! 

As for the _friends_ ability, if I remember the original spell properly it just gave a sizeable boost to Charisma. Something like 1d8.

The closest equivalent in 3E is _eagle's splendor_. I'm reluctant to give them that, since I'd rather just make it a "persuading victims" ability.

A simple enhancement bonus to Diplomacy checks would do most of it, or maybe a _charm_-like power?

That reminds me, I think it out to be susceptible to Bardic Countersong. Got to give the Bards _some_ nods.

Hmm, how about we do something like the Krenshar's Scare ability - it can use this ability for ordinary Bluff and Diplomacy checks with a bonus on the roll, or it can focus it to create a _charm_ effect as an SLA.

Like so:

*Befriend (Ex of Su) Version One:* A hyenawere in humanoid form has an uncannily charming personality. As a standard action, it can make a Diplomacy check change the attitudes of other creatures (without the -10 penalty for a rushed Diplomacy check). It has a *[*+5 racial or enhancement *?]* bonus to other Diplomacy checks and Bluff checks.

By focusing its personality on a single creature, a hyenawere can convince that creature to become its friend. This works like a _charm person_ spell from a 12th level caster (Will DC 14). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same hyenawere's befriend ability for 24 hours. This is a supernatural, sonic mind-affecting charm effect.

The befriend power does not affect other hyenaweres. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Hmm, although the original _friends_ spell affects any creature, I think we should limit the Hyenawere's power to humanoids, since it says they prey on "gullible humans".

*Befriend (Ex of Su) Version Two:* A hyenawere in humanoid form has an uncannily  charming personality. It can make a Diplomacy  check to change the attitudes of humanoids as a standard action, without the -10 penalty  for a rushed Diplomacy check. It has a *[*+5 racial or enhancement *?]* bonus to other Diplomacy checks and Bluff checks.

By focusing its personality on a single humanoid, it can convince that creature to become its friend. This works like a _charm person_  spell from a 12th level caster (Will DC 14). A humanoid that  successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same hyenawere's befriend ability for 24 hours. This is a supernatural, sonic  mind-affecting charm effect.

The befriend power does not affect other  hyenaweres. The save DC is Charisma-based.

I like Befriend Version Two the best.


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2012)

So what weapon are we giving the Hyenawere in its humanoid form?

I'm thinking we should restrict it to simple weapons, so maybe a Spear?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2012)

I seem to have read this, gotten dragged away from the computer, and then forgotten I needed to respond. Hrmph.

I think I also like Befriend v2.

I can agree to a spear of some type for the weapon, but we should definitely give them character class advancement, given that they use "weapons appropriate for [their] assumed identity."


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> I seem to have read this, gotten dragged away from the computer, and then forgotten I needed to respond. Hrmph.
> 
> I think I also like Befriend v2.
> 
> I can agree to a spear of some type for the weapon, but we should definitely give them character class advancement, given that they use "weapons appropriate for [their] assumed identity."




Spear and befriend 2 it is then.

As for the advancement, I'd go for by HD or character class.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2012)

Sounds good.

DR 5 (just to remove that X from the draft)?

Immunity to enchantment looks fine.

Reading the original text suggests that we should add the "fear of flames" SQ we've done before (can you remember when we did that?).


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## Cleon (Sep 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> DR 5 (just to remove that X from the draft)?
> 
> Immunity to enchantment looks fine.




I'll update the *Hyenawere Working Draft* then.

Racial or enhancement for the Befriend's Diplomacy bonus? I was leaning _slightly_ towards racial but it's based on a Krenshar's Scare ability which doesn't give its Bluff bonus a type, so how about making it typeless?

As for the damage reduction, I was thinking 10/cold iron since (a) our Enworld Wolfwere conversion has DR 10 and it's a "cousin Antherion", and (b) it seems pretty close to a "natural" lycanthrope.

Hmm, what DR do Jackalweres get in 3E again? I'll look it up...



freyar said:


> Reading the original text suggests that we should add the "fear of flames" SQ we've done before (can you remember when we did that?).




I believe I mentioned that already, and proposed we give 'em the Malatran Mold Man version:

*Fear of Flames (Ex):* A plantfolk that suffers fire damage from an  attack must succeed on a Will save (DC = 10 for nonmagical fire, DC of  spell or supernatural attack for magical fire) or become panicked for  1d6 rounds.


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## Cleon (Sep 19, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, what DR do Jackalweres get in 3E again? I'll look it up...




According to Echohawk's index Jackalweres are in the 3.0 _Fiend Folio_, so I'll have to dig that out and see what it says...


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2012)

Cleon said:


> According to Echohawk's index Jackalweres are in the 3.0 _Fiend Folio_, so I'll have to dig that out and see what it says...




Well the Jackalwere has DR 15/+1 in the  _Fiend Folio_, but in the official WotC 3.5 update for the  _Fiend Folio_ it has DR 5/cold iron.

So, I guess DR 5/cold iron's fine for the Hyenawere.

Upon reflection, the "Werehyena" is a pretty nice fit as a Hyenawere, the other Antherions also have DR/cold iron and mind-affecting attacks - _lethargy_ song for the Wolfwere and _sleep_ gaze for the Jackalwere.


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2012)

DR 5 is the "standard" value for the likely CR, so I like that.

And, yes, that Fear of Flames works.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> DR 5 is the "standard" value for the likely CR, so I like that.
> 
> And, yes, that Fear of Flames works.




Updating the *Hyenawere Working Draft*.

Dammit, when Enworld went wonky yesterday it lost my last update to the Working Draft. I'd added the Spear, Befriend and some other stuff.

Have to replace it now.

I don't think we decided on the Befriend bonus type. My latest suggestion was typeless, like a Krenshar's Bluff bonus from Scare.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2012)

A typeless skill bonus is ok if you prefer, but I like racial a bit better.

Skills and feats?  Disguise, maybe Bluff, probably the old standbys Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot all make sense.  So perhaps 3 ranks in each of those?


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## Cleon (Sep 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> A typeless skill bonus is ok if you prefer, but I like racial a bit better.
> 
> Skills and feats?  Disguise, maybe Bluff, probably the old standbys Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot all make sense.  So perhaps 3 ranks in each of those?




Hmm, surely it gets +10 to Disguise from its Alternate Form? That suggest we don't need much in Disguise.

How about Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot instead?

It's got 24 skill ranks, so I'd put 5 ranks in Bluff to give it the synergy bonus to Diplomacy, Disguise (act in character) and Intimidate, which leaves 19 for the other five skills. Three ranks apiece leaves 4 so I'd stick 1 in each apart from Spot, as the SRD Hyena has a higher Listen than Spot.

Thus:

*Skills No 1:* Bluff 5, Diplomacy 4, Disguise 0, Hide 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Spot 3.

Hmm, I wouldn't mind a few points in Disguise, so how about trimming Hide, Move Silently and Spot by 1 apiece and putting it in Disguise? That'll also give it the same Listen +6 and Spot +4 skills as the SRD Hyena.

*Skills No 2:* Bluff 5, Diplomacy 4, Disguise 3, Hide 3, Listen 4, Move Silently 3, Spot 2.


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2012)

I like skill set number 2 a bit better.  As for Alternate Form, shouldn't there at least be 1 line about it in the combat section?


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> I like skill set number 2 a bit better.




I'll update the skills.



freyar said:


> As for  Alternate Form, shouldn't there at least be 1 line about it in the  combat section?




Yeah, I guess so.

Something like "*Alternate Form:* A hyenawere can assume the form of an enormous hyena (its natural form) or a Medium humanoid."?


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## freyar (Oct 4, 2012)

Sure, that alternate form is fine.  The only change I'd make is to drop the "(its natural form)" bit.  The original calls them "humans" that "transform themselves into hyenalike forms."  And lycanthropes don't have one natural form or the other.


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## Cleon (Oct 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure, that alternate form is fine.  The only change I'd make is to drop the "(its natural form)" bit.  The original calls them "humans" that "transform themselves into hyenalike forms."  And lycanthropes don't have one natural form or the other.




Yes, I'm aware of that but we've made it a Magical Beast hyenawere, so it's a therianthrope with an animal form as its true form.

Still, I don't mind dropping the natural form.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2012)

OK, then.

For the feats, let's see.  How about Combat Reflexes and maybe Weapon Focus (spear)?


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## Cleon (Oct 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> OK, then.




I'll try to remember to remove it with the next update.



freyar said:


> For the feats, let's see.  How about Combat Reflexes and maybe Weapon Focus (spear)?




Hmm, I'd like to give it at least one feat that's the same as a Hyena.

The Cave Hyena has Alertness and Weapon Focus (bite), so maybe give it the former?


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2012)

Alertness and Combat Reflexes work for you?


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Alertness and Combat Reflexes work for you?




I guess so. Not sure Combat Reflexes quite fits them, but can't think of anything better.

 Updating the *Hyenawere Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Updating the *Hyenawere Working Draft*.




Hmm, the working draft's Hide and Move Silently seem a bit low. Maybe we should give them Stealthy instead of Combat Reflexes?


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2012)

There's nothing in the original text that makes me think they're particularly great at stealth, more other types of deception.  But I'm ok with switching to Stealthy if you really prefer it.

Did we ever decide on the bonus type for Befriend?  I prefer racial a bit better, but it can be typeless if you have a strong preference.


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> There's nothing in the original text that makes me think they're particularly great at stealth, more other types of deception.  But I'm ok with switching to Stealthy if you really prefer it.




Well there's not much to suggest they've got fast combat reactions either.

The entry describes them as lying in wait for a victim lured out by a "point man", so they must be _somewhat_ stealthy.

Still, a +5 is a reasonable modifier for preying on 1st level Commoners, so I'm okay leaving them as they are.



freyar said:


> Did we ever decide on the bonus type for Befriend?  I prefer racial a bit better, but it can be typeless if you have a strong preference.




I was leaning toward typeless since that's what the Krenshar's _scare_ uses, but it doesn't make much of a difference to me.


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh, and we haven't added the _pass without trace_ they have in hyena form.


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2012)

Well, we could swap Combat Reflexes for Imp Init, which is sort of stealth-related and certainly useful in an ambush.

I don't know how the krenshar's scare is related to befriend here.  Tell you what, I'll roll a die below.  1-2 for racial, 3-4 for typeless.  Oh, and Befriend seems like it should be Su to me.  EDIT: the die says racial bonus.

Just add pass without trace as an SLA?  Or just give them a druid's trackless step?


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, we could swap Combat Reflexes for Imp Init, which is sort of stealth-related and certainly useful in an ambush.
> 
> I don't know how the krenshar's scare is related to befriend here.  Tell you what, I'll roll a die below.  1-2 for racial, 3-4 for typeless.  Oh, and Befriend seems like it should be Su to me.  EDIT: the die says racial bonus.
> 
> Just add pass without trace as an SLA?  Or just give them a druid's trackless step?




It reads more like Trackless Step to me, so I was going to go for an adaptation of that.

How about...

_Traceless Path_ (Su): A hyenawere in hyena form can move through any kind of terrain while leaving neither footprints nor scent, making nonmagical tracking impossible. It may choose to leave a trail if it desires.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, we could swap Combat Reflexes for Imp Init, which is sort of stealth-related and certainly useful in an ambush.




I'm liking Improved Initiative for them better.



freyar said:


> I don't know how the krenshar's scare is related to befriend here.  Tell  you what, I'll roll a die below.  1-2 for racial, 3-4 for typeless.   Oh, and Befriend seems like it should be Su to me.  EDIT: the die says  racial bonus.




I was using it as a model by changing the Krenshar's scary-fying into friendly-fying.

It's (Ex or Su) because the Diplomacy check effects are (Ex) and the _charm person_ effects are (Su).


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2012)

Traceless Path as you have it works for me.

Let's go with Imp Init since you like it better.

I'd prefer to make Befriend Su.  The charm is certainly Su, so we need to go with that.  Furthermore, it's reasonable to argue that the Diplomacy bonus also comes from the infusion of magic in the hyenawere body and mind or something.  The reason I don't like the comparison to the krenshar is that the krenshar literally pulls back a flap of skin around its head to expose muscles, etc, and there's nothing like that at all going on here.


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## Cleon (Nov 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Traceless Path as you have it works for me.
> 
> Let's go with Imp Init since you like it better.
> 
> I'd prefer to make Befriend Su.  The charm is certainly Su, so we need to go with that.  Furthermore, it's reasonable to argue that the Diplomacy bonus also comes from the infusion of magic in the hyenawere body and mind or something.  The reason I don't like the comparison to the krenshar is that the krenshar literally pulls back a flap of skin around its head to expose muscles, etc, and there's nothing like that at all going on here.




Well, I guess it'll only make a difference if the Hyenawere's victims are in an antimagic field, and that probably won't happen often.

Okay, Improved Initiative and Supernatural Befriending it is then.

 Updating the *Hyenawere Working Draft*.

Did we decide on the type for the Diplomacy bonus? It ought to be enhancement or typeless, since racial bonus doesn't really fit a (Su) power.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2012)

Let's make it typeless.  I feel like it ought to stack with any Diplomacy bonus a hyenawere could get from a magic item, etc.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's make it typeless.  I feel like it ought to stack with any Diplomacy bonus a hyenawere could get from a magic item, etc.




Sure, I was leaning that way since the Krenshar's scare bonus is also typeless.

Anything else in the way of special abilities, or shall I update?


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2012)

Let's update.  I don't think these need more SAs or SQs, so shall we move on?  I'm thinking either a strong CR 3 or weak 4 by comparison to the barghest and werewolf.


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's update.  I don't think these need more SAs or SQs, so shall we move on?  I'm thinking either a strong CR 3 or weak 4 by comparison to the barghest and werewolf.




I'd go for CR 4. They've got more HD and better BAB/hp/saves than a Werewolf and a useful supernatural special attack, plus Cold Iron is a special material that's rarely wielded by low level PCs.


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2012)

CR 4 it is.

Advancement: By character class (favored class X)?
X=ranger? or perhaps rogue?


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> CR 4 it is.




I'll update it when I get the chance.



freyar said:


> Advancement: By character class (favored class X)?
> X=ranger? or perhaps rogue?




Aristocrat! 

The Tome of Horrors and Enworld versions of the Wolfwere don't seem to list a favoured class, so maybe we should just leave it out?

Failing that, I'd lean towards Rogue.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2012)

We can leave off the favored class if you like. 

Treasure: Standard coins, double goods (gems only), standard items?


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> We can leave off the favored class if you like.




That'd be my preferred solution.



freyar said:


> Treasure: Standard coins, double goods (gems only), standard items?




Hmm what does the original have again...

Qx10!

That's 10-40 gems in 2E, seems rather a lot of precious stones for lycanthrope bandits. Where do they get them all from?

Hmm, still that's such a lot of gems I'd be tempted to give it triple goods (gems only) and maybe half coins and items.


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2012)

By the way, since it mentions "newly infected lycanthropes" in the flavour text we should give them a retread of the Jagwere's therianthropy:

*Curse of the Jagwere (Su):* Any humanoid hit by a jagwere's bite attack must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become a jagwere the next time there is a full moon. The victim loses all abilities it possessed prior to transformation, becoming an ordinary jagwere in all respects except for the following: The "cursed jagwere" does not have a Curse of the Jagwere special attack. A "cursed jagwere" retains no memory or interest in its former existence, but does retain any equipment it carried. Cursed jagweres can be cured of their condition by a _remove curse_ or _break enchantment_ cast on the jagwere if the jagwere succeeds on a DC 20 Will save.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2012)

All they like to steal is gems, I guess.  I'm not sure I want to decrease the items, but I could do half coins, triple goods (gems only), standard items as a compromise.

I'll go along with "curse of the hyenawere."


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## Cleon (Dec 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> All they like to steal is gems, I guess.  I'm not sure I want to decrease the items, but I could do half coins, triple goods (gems only), standard items as a compromise.
> 
> I'll go along with "curse of the hyenawere."




Works for me. I'll update the *Hyenawere Working Draft*. (Note: the is URL has been corrected so it points to the current location of the Working Draft, but all the previous links point to the "Old Enworld" locations so their URLs are broken.)


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## freyar (Dec 13, 2012)

Tactics: Hyenaweres rarely pick a fair fight. Instead, they use their Befriend ability to lure individual, unaware victims into an ambush far from help.  Hyenaweres prefer to attack in hyena form, but some members of a pack will often remain as humanoids in order to provide ranged attacks.


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> Tactics: Hyenaweres rarely pick a fair fight. Instead, they use their Befriend ability to lure individual, unaware victims into an ambush far from help.  Hyenaweres prefer to attack in hyena form, but some members of a pack will often remain as humanoids in order to provide ranged attacks.




Why use "individual, unaware victims" instead of "unaware individuals"?

I see no mention of the "some members of a pack will often remain as humanoids in order to provide ranged attacks" in the original attack so I'd cut that out or rephrase it.

We should mention they prefer to attack by day, since that's in the original.

Hyenaweres rarely pick a fair fight. Their favorite tactic is using their Befriend  ability to lure unaware individuals into an ambush far from  help.  Hyenaweres prefer to fight in hyena form, but may remain as humanoids to use ranged weapons. They usually attack during the day due to their primal fear of fire travellers at night tend to have campfires or torches.​


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2012)

I can go with that.  I often have awkward wording , and I wanted to work in some mention of the ranged weapons.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> I can go with that.  I often have awkward wording , and I wanted to work in some mention of the ranged weapons.




Updating the *Hyenawere Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Dec 26, 2012)

Was just reading the original monster entry for inspiration on the description and noticed that they have a second mouth at the back of their head.  Should we list that under alternate form?

Here's an attempt at a description:
This tall, lithe man smiles widely and laughs easily.  His long, thick hair reaches past his shoulders.  ??

We should put something in the flavor about most of them being male.


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## Cleon (Dec 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> Was just reading the original monster entry for inspiration on the description and noticed that they have a second mouth at the back of their head.  Should we list that under alternate form?




We should definitely mention it somewhere!



freyar said:


> Here's an attempt at a description:
> This tall, lithe man smiles widely and laughs easily.  His long, thick hair reaches past his shoulders.  ??




It'd be better with "human" rather than "man" in the description, just 'cause 3E is progressive that way.

_A lithe human with long, thick hair reaching past their shoulders. Whoever it is seems friendly enough, judging by their easy going smile.
_
I'm not sure about the "smiles widely and laughs easily". In my experience a lot of PCs are paranoid enough if they met someone wandering through the desert who acted like that they'd kill them just as a precaution. 



freyar said:


> This tall, lithe man smiles widely and laughs easily.  His long, thick hair reaches past his shoulders.  ??




Mentioning there are more male Hyenaweres than females would seem necessary, yes.


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## freyar (Jan 1, 2013)

Well, your revised description will work for me.

Hyenaweres are therianthropes in the form of hyenas who delight in roguish behavior....   ???  I don't have many good ideas on the flavor.


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## Cleon (Jan 2, 2013)

freyar said:


> Well, your revised description will work for me.




Don't we also need a description for their hyena form?...

_A hyena as large as a pony, with black fur on its belly and paws and a golden-furred back._

Updating the *Hyenawere Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Hyenaweres are therianthropes in the form of hyenas who delight in roguish behavior....   ???  I don't have many good ideas on the flavor.




How's this...

Hyenaweres are monstrous hyena therianthropes that shapechange into human form to stalk humanoid victims. Their human form has a second mouth at the base of the head, which noiselessly mimics the lip movements of the creature's main mouth. A hyenawere is careful to keep this extra mouth hidden, usually by growing their hair so it covers the back of their neck.

Hyenaweres live in close-knit family packs led by the strongest member. They  are playful and affectionate to each other, but have no compassion for any creature outside the pack. The majority of hyenaweres are male.  They mate for life and produce litters of 1 to 4 pups, three-quarters of  which will be boys.

Like normal hyenas, hyenaweres are excellent hunters and iron-stomached scavengers who can eat garbage or carrion to survive. Their favorite  prey are humanoids. They often send a lone scout to infiltrate a band of travelers or isolated village to pick out a victim. Hyenaweres collect gemstones for the scouts to use as presents to help lure a victim to where the pack waits in ambush.

Humanoids who survive a hyenawere bite may turn into hyenaweres themselves. These newly transformed monsters are accepted into existing packs if they swear fealty to the pack leader or defeat them in a fight.

A hyenawere in animal form is roughly 6 feet long, stands about three feet at the shoulder and weighs up to 400 pounds. In human form they tend to be tall and sinewy, averaging 6 feet tall and 160 pounds.

Hyenaweres speak Common.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2013)

That looks pretty good!

I expect we should include the LA, and +4 ought to work.  After that, and the copyright notice, these should be done.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2013)

freyar said:


> That looks pretty good!




Updating the *Hyenawere Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> I expect we should  include the LA, and +4 ought to work.




Well our Leopardwere conversion and the _Fiend Folio_ Jackal Lord (= Jackalwere) both have LAs so I guess we ought to give it to the Hyenawere too. I'm having second thoughts about the +4 though. A regular true lycanthrope only has has LA +3, after all. True, Hyenaweres have that nifty Befriend trick and Immunity to Enchantment, but they have Fear of Flames, lower DR than a true lycanthrope, and can't assume a hybrid form to wield weapons.

They feel more a LA +3 to me.

Well, I'm undecided on that point so I'll leave it +4 for the time being.



freyar said:


> After that, and the copyright  notice, these should be done.




Copyright notice? Do you mean the accreditation. I'll add that in.


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2013)

Well, I'm hardly an expert at LA assignment, but +3 is also reasonable.

Yes, I meant the credit section.

So, let's just decide on the LA and move on.  How about we just pick LA +3? Anything you're interested in doing here?


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2013)

freyar said:


> Well, I'm hardly an expert at LA assignment, but +3 is also reasonable.
> 
> Yes, I meant the credit section.
> 
> So, let's just decide on the LA and move on.  How about we just pick LA +3?




I'm OK leaving them with +4.

After some reflection, I can think of all sorts of ways a player can exploit an at-will _befriend_ power.



freyar said:


> Anything you're interested in doing here?




Well let's look at the *AQ unconverted creatures list*...

...hmm...

...you know, this hasn't been updated in a while.

I'd go for the Bird Maiden (the Zakharan version of the Swanmay) or the Ammut.

The Bird Maiden would be my first choice, since its on my "shapechangers to do list".

The Ammut would be my second choice, 'cause *he's so cute*.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2013)

Let's go with the Bird Maiden first, so we can eventually post some more shapechangers.


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## Cleon (Jan 8, 2013)

freyar said:


> Let's go with the Bird Maiden first, so we can eventually post some more shapechangers.




Will do. I'll post the original stats. Curiously enough, they only seem to be in the _Monstrous Manual_. There's also an Ecology of the Bird Maiden article in _Dragon_ #218 that we should bear in mind.


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## Cleon (Jan 8, 2013)

*Bird Maiden Original Text*

*Swanmay - Bird Maidens*
*Climate/Terrain:* Tropical mountains
*Frequency:* Very rare
*Organization:* Solitary
*Activity Cycle:* Day
*Diet:* Omnivore
*Intelligence:* Average to Genius (8-18)
*Treasure:* 
*Alignment:* Any
*No. Appearing:* 1
*Armor Class:* 7
*Movement:* 12, or 3, Fl 36 (C)
*Hit Dice:* 2 to 8
*THAC0:* As kahina
*No. of Attacks:* 2 or as kahina
*Damage/Attack:* 1/1-3 or by weapon
*Special Attacks:* Spells
*Special Defenses:* +2 or better weapon to hit
*Magic Resistance:* 5% per HD
*Size:* M
*Morale:* Elite (13)
*XP Value:* 420 to 3,000

*Bird Maidens
*In the mountains and cool valleys of the lands of Zakhara lives a race of bird maidens, related to the swanmays. Just like their sisters, they depend on a token to change forms: a colorful shawl or veil of feathers. They can assume many bird shapes, including falcons, swallows, parrots, and even (at 8th level) giant eagles.

Though they have no sorority, bird maidens are loosely united by their faith. All bird maidens are kahina, idol priestesses who believe in the divinity of all things. They live as wandering teachers, protecting the land from those who despoil it. They get along best with those who respect the land: desert riders, mystics, and fisherfolk. In the fertile river valleys, they preach the faith and maintain the fertility of the land and livestock. Some tribesmen believe bird maidens are _hama_, spirits of the departed, who return to help the living. Bird maidens deny this and may cut themselves to prove that they are flesh and blood.

Bird maidens’ Hit Dice are equal to their priestly level, from 2-8. They have major access to the All, Animal, Divination, Elemental, Healing, Plant and Weather spheres and minor access to the Creation, Protection, and Sun spheres. They carry spears, darts, and slings, but may not wear armor or shields (even magical) heavier than hide. If they do, they cannot use spells. Bird maidens cannot turn undead.

In bird form, bird maidens can peck and claw, but most don’t fight as birds. Only a bird maiden’s shawl or veil changes with her when she shifts form. All other equipment is unchanged and must be hidden or cared for by others until the bird maiden again changes her form.

Bird maidens are sometimes forced to marry men who steal their shawls; if they ever recover them, they leave their husbands, killing their sons and taking the daughters with them to become bird maidens. If the feathered garment is destroyed, the bird maiden dies as well.

Rumors tell of a great wooden fortress among the clouds of the high hills, called the Crown of All Feathers, where young bird maidens are taught the rituals and duties of kahinas by the Aarakocra.

_Originally from Monstrous Manual (1993)._


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## Cleon (Jan 8, 2013)

*Bird Maiden Ecology Notes*

Here's the notes from the *Ecology of the Bird Maiden* article. The stats from the original Monstrous Compendium page can be seen *here*.

The article's accompanying story didn't appear to have any relevant additional information not covered by them.

*Notes*
1. The bird maiden is a creature unique to Zakhara, the Land of Fate. It is always female, just like the swanmay living in the northern lands of Toril, and in some respects quite similar to that creature. Like a swanmay, a bird maiden may shapechange to bird form. While the former can transform only into a swan, the bird maiden can change into a variety of bird forms, depending upon her level.

It is important to note that as the bird maiden rises in level, she may elect to take the form for that level or any form of a lesser level. For example, a 6th-level bird maiden could shapechange into an owl or any bird form allowed for a 2nd- through 5th-level bird maiden.

There are other differences between swanmays and bird maidens. A swanmay is a ranger while in human form, while a bird maiden is a kahina, with all of the powers of that class (See Arabian Adventures). Another important difference is that swanmays are always good-aligned, while a bird maiden may be of any alignment. Most bird maidens (80%) are of neutral alignment, while 10% are good and 10% are evil. Whatever the alignment, it always has a neutral tendency (i.e., neutral good, true neutral, or neutral evil). It is rumored that evil bird maidens are able to shapechange into ravens, blood hawks, and giant vultures.

2. Good and neutral bird maidens see themselves as protectors of living things and guard against those who would despoil the land. Hence, they have a tendency to help and teach those who respect the land. Their protection applies to sentient beings as well, in line with the tolerance extended to all by the teachings of the Loregiver. Hence, a bird maiden would teach irrigation to farmers to help their crops grow, but she would ensure that the system would not harm the lake or river life being used as a water source.

3. The power of a bird maiden resides in a shawl, veil, or other significant object of clothing that is made of feathers. This object is given to her at the end of her initial training. If she ever loses it, she loses all her powers as kahina and shapechanger until she recovers it. Unscrupulous men have been known to come into the possession of a bird maiden’s feathered garment, and with the creature helpless, have forced her into marriage.

4. Destruction of the feathered token of the bird maiden always results in the creature’s death with no hope whatsoever of resurrection.

5. When shapechanged, only a bird maiden’s feathered garment and her body transform. All other worldly goods must be taken off and guarded by someone else.

6. Just as mystics dance, bird maiden kahinas sing, and the verbal components of their spells are always sung in a sweet, warbling voice. They have major access to the spheres of All, Animal, Divination, Elemental, Healing, Plant, and Weather. They have minor access to the spheres of Creation, Protection, and Sun.

7. While bird maidens always have the nonweapon proficiency options allowed to kahinas, one proficiency they always possess is herbalism due to its connection with the land they are sworn to protect.

8. The place of training for bird maidens is said to be a place called the Crown of All Feathers. It is supposedly a great wooden fortress concealed among the clouds in high hills or mountains. There aarakocra teach the rituals, duties, and abilities of the bird maidens. It is rumored that a very special genie of enormous power guards this place and uses powerful illusions to keep it safe from the curious and unsavory. All bird maidens know where this place is, but no sort of magical compulsion or physical abuse can pry the location from them.

_Originally from Dragon #218 (June 1995)._


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## Cleon (Jan 14, 2013)

Might as well start a Working Draft.

I'm assuming we're going for a template like the Creature Catalog Swanmay rather than making it a prestige class like the 3E _*Book of Exalted Deeds*_ Swanmay.

This is a monster conversion board, after all!


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## Cleon (Jan 14, 2013)

*Bird Maiden Working Draft*

*Bird Maiden (Template)*
_A woman in the plain robes of a wandering priestess, with a shawl of feathers draped over her shoulders._

The bird maidens are a secretive sisterhood of shapechangers similar to  swanmays. Unlike swanmays, bird maidens can shapechange into many kinds  of birds, not just one. The bird form a bird maiden assumes may allude  to her personality - a  parrot for an extrovert individual, a vulture  for a morbid one, and so on.

All bird maidens are mendicant nature priestesses. They can be of any  alignment, but few are evil. Their sisterhood is not an organized cult,  and is united only by their shared faith and religious practices. It has  no hierarchy, apart from the master-pupil relationship between a bird  maiden and whoever taught her the mysteries of how to become one.  

Bird maidens wander the countryside teaching folk about the natural  world. A good or neutral bird maiden tries to do this by healing the  afflicted and showing people how to live in harmony with their  environment, via advice on sustainable farming, animal husbandry, and  the like. They do sometimes punish those who despoil nature. The rare  evil bird maidens are more vindictive, and enjoy teaching 'lessons'  about the cruelty of the wild, by bringing death and ruination  to  creatures who are ignorant or abusive toward nature.

Most bird maidens travel alone or in the company of her daughters, who   she will be raising to become bird maidens themselves. Bird maidens   never keep sons. A maiden who bears a male baby usually gives him away   to  foster parents, but some evil maidens abandon their infant boys in  the  wilderness.

A bird maiden's shapeshifting powers come from a magical garment made of  feathers. This garment is part of the maiden's being, and should it be  destroyed, the maiden will die. Bird maidens are sometimes forced to  become the slaves - or even wives - of someone who steals their feather  garment and threatens to destroy it (and her).   The maiden immediately flies away should she manage to regain the stolen garment from her 'lord' or 'husband', but she often returns to kill or pauperize her persecutor. 

*Bird Maidens In Al-Qadim*
In the Land of Fate,  it is said that bird maidens are taught their powers and rites by  Aarakocra priests in a secret temple known as The Crown of All Feathers.  According to rumor, this is a great wooden fortress hidden somewhere in  the highest hills.

*Creating a Bird Maiden*
"Bird Maiden" is an acquired template that can be added to any female  humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) that has  the  ability to cast divine spells and 5 or more ranks in both the Heal  and  Knowledge (nature) skills.

A Bird Maiden uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

All bird maidens possess the ability to shapechange from their natural humanoid form into the shape of a bird. The size and type of bird varies with the nature of the bird maiden -- see see Bird Shape entry for details.

*Size and Type:* The bird maiden's type remains unchanged but she gains the Shapechanger subtype. A bird maiden has the same size as the base creature when in humanoid form, but she may be smaller or larger when in bird form (see Bird Shape).

*Hit Dice:* Same as base creature.

*Speed:* Same as base creature in humanoid form. A bird maiden gains a fly speed in bird form (see Bird Shape).

*Armor Class:* Same as base creature in humanoid form. A bird maiden gains natural armor in bird form (see Bird Shape).

*Attack:* Same as base creature in humanoid form. In bird form, a bird maiden loses the base creature's attacks and gains claw and bite attacks (see Bird Shape).

*Damage:* Same as base creature in humanoid form. See BIrd Shape for the damage a bird maiden's talons and beak do when she is in bird form.

*Special Attacks:* A Bird Maiden in humanoid form retains all the special attacks of the base creature. When in bird form, a bird maiden loses any extraordinary special attacks of her original form not derived from class levels, but retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of the base creature (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks).

*Special Qualities:* A Bird Maiden retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below.

_Bird Shape (Su):_ A bird maiden can use her enchanted feather   garment (see below) to shapechange into a bird. A novice bird maiden can  only assume the form of a tiny songbird, but  more experienced bird  maidens can take on many bird forms. This ability functions  like the  Alternate Form special ability, except as noted here.

A bird maiden  chooses a bird form to change into at character level 2,  based on the  example forms in the Bird Shape Table, then an additional  bird form at  each subsequent level up to level 8.

At  9th level she can change from one bird form to another bird form  without having to return to humanoid form in-between.

At 10th level, she  is no longer limited to the seven bird forms she   selected previously, but can assume the form of any bird from Tiny size   to Large size.

A bird form must be that of a bird the bird maiden is familiar with. A  bird maiden's chosen bird forms need not match the size of the actual   bird - there are maidens who can change into pigeon-size peafowl or   halfling-sized macaws.

The maiden's chosen forms may  reflect aspects of her character in some  fashion. For example, a  secretive bird maiden could have a nightjar as  her 3rd level form, while  a garrulous one may become a raven or mynah  bird.

The bird form has the abilities given in the Bird Shape Table presented    below  instead of the abilities normally granted by Alternate Form.   They  do not gain any special abilities or racial bonuses of the actual   bird,  such as a Giant Owl's superior low light vision and +8 racial   bonus to  Listen, or a buzzard's scent ability, with one exception: If   the bird  has a swim speed, the bird form gains a swim speed equal to   the actual  bird or half the bird form's fly speed, whichever is less.  All bird forms have a land speed of 10 feet.


*Level¹
**Example Form**Size**Fly Speed**NA²**Attacks³**Abilities†*2Nightingale, SparrowTiny40 ft. (average)—Bite 1d3-6 Str, +2 Dex3Dove, Ibis, ParrotTiny40 ft. (good)+1Bite 1d4-4 Str, +2 Dex4Hawk, Owl, KiteTiny60 ft. (good)+1Claws 1d4 and bite 1d3-2 Str, +2 Dex5Hornbill, Stork,
Giant ParrotSmall60 ft. (average)+2Bite 1d6 and 2 claws 1d2+0 Str, +2 Dex6Bloodhawk, EagleSmall80 ft. (average)+22 claws 1d3 and bite 1d4+2 Str, +2 Dex7Dire Hawk, Black BoobrieMedium80 ft. (average)+32 claws 1d4 and bite 1d6+4 Str, +2 Dex8Giant Owl, Giant EagleLarge80 ft. (average)+42 claws 1d6 and bite 1d8+8 Str, +2 Dex
 *1* A bird maiden with this many character levels can  assume a bird  form of this class. Higher level bird maidens can still  assume the smaller  forms.
* 2* A bird maiden's natural armor bonus increases by this amount when she is in this class of bird form.
*3* The 2nd and 3rd level bird forms have a single bite attack; the  4th level form has a single claws attack and a secondary bite attack;  the 5th level form has a bite attack and two secondary claw attacks; the  6th to 8th level forms have two claw attacks and a secondary bite  attack.
*†* A bird maiden's ability scores are adjusted by these values  when in bird  form. These modifiers are in addition to the bird maiden's  normal  ability adjustments and include size adjustments based on the  assumption  the base creature is Medium sized.
   — If the bird maiden's base creature  is of a smaller size, adjust  the Strength modifier according to the  Changes to Statistics by Size  table in Improving Monsters (e.g. add +4  Str for a Small base  creature), but do not adjust the Dexterity or  natural armor modifiers.
—    If the base creature is larger than Medium, increase the sizes of  the bird forms and their natural weapon damage by the same degree (e.g. a  Large bird maiden's 5th level form is Medium instead of Small, with a  1d8 bite and two 1d3 secondary claws), but do not modify any of the  other stats.

A bird maiden can assume any of her bird forms at will as a standard  action. The effect lasts for 1 hour per character level, or until she  changes back. Changing form (to bird or back) is a standard action and  doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Any gear worn or carried by the bird maiden melds into the new form and   becomes nonfunctional. When the maiden reverts to her true form, any   objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same   location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again   functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at   the maiden's feet.

A bird maiden can speak normally while in bird form, which allows her to  cast spells with verbal components. Bird Maidens can select the Natural  Spell feat as if their Bird Shape ability were the druid's Wild Shape  ability.

_Damage Reduction (Ex):_ A bird maiden gains damage reduction 5/magic. This DR increases to 10/magic at 5th level.

_Evasion (Ex):_ Starting at 8th level, a bird maiden gains  evasion   when in bird form. At 10th level, she gains evasion in humanoid form.  If a bird maiden already has evasion from another source, such as levels  in the Rogue class, she gains improved evasion instead.

_Feather Garment (Su):_ All bird maidens possess an enchanted    feather  garment which grants them all the other special qualities of    this template (bird shape, low-light vision, damage reduction, and    possibly evasion). Should another creature steal this  garment, the    garment-thief gains a +4 bonus when using Charisma-based skills or   attacks with Will saving throws against the bird maiden.

If the feathered garment is destroyed (8 hp, hardness 2,  takes double   damage from fire), the bird maiden automatically  dies at the end of   that round. Spells that restore souls to their  bodies, such as _raise dead_, _ reincarnate_, and _resurrection_, don't work on a bird maiden whose feather  garment has been destroyed. It takes a different magical effect, such  as _limited wish_, _wish_, _miracle_, or _true resurrection_, to restore her to  life, which also recreates the maiden's feather garment.

_Healing Change (Su):_ When a bird maiden uses Bird Shape, she can  regain lost hit points as if she had rested for a night. A bird maiden  can heal herself in this fashion once a day for every 3 character levels  she possesses.

_Low-Light Vision (Ex):_ A bird maiden gains low-light vision. If the maiden's bird form is a nocturnal species such as an owl she gains superior low-light vision, allowing her to see five times as far as a human can in dim light.

*Abilities:* Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +2, Dex +6, Wis +4, Cha +2.

A bird maiden will have further modifiers to her ability scores when in bird form (see Bird Shape).

*Skills:* A bird maiden in the bird form of a diurnal (day-dwelling) bird gains a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks  and a +4 racial bonus on Search checks. One in a nocturnal (night-dwelling) bird form gains a +4 racial bonus to Listen checks.

Otherwise same as the base creature.

*Feats:* Same as base creature. Bird Maidens can select the Natural   Spell feat as if their Bird Shape ability were the druid's Wild Shape   ability.

*Environment:* Warm mountains.
*Organization:* Solitary or family (mother and 1-2 daughters).
*Challenge Rating:* Same as the base creature +1.
*Treasure:* Same as base creature.
*Alignment:* Any, but usually good or neutral.
*Advancement:* Same as base creature.
*Level Adjustment:* Same as the base creature +2.

*Sample Bird Maiden*
The following sample creature has gained the Bird Maiden template.

*Bird Maiden*
*6th level human cleric*
Medium Humanoid
*Hit* *Dice:* 6d8+12 (39 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares, base speed 30 ft.)
*Armor* *Class:* 17 (+4 Dex, +3 hide armor), touch 14, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +4/+5
*Attack:* Spear +5 melee (1d8+1/×3) or spear +8 ranged (1d8+1) or sling +8 ranged (1d4+1)
*Full* *Attack:* Spear +5 melee (1d8+1/×3) or spear +8 ranged (1d8+1) or sling +8 ranged (1d4+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Bird shape, spells, rebuke plants, turn undead
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 10/magic, feather garment, healing change, low-light vision, _speak with animals_
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +10
*Abilities:* Str 12, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10
*Skills:* Diplomacy +5, Handle Animal +3, Heal +16, Knowledge  (nature) +6,   Knowledge (religion) +6, Profession (farmer) +9, Survival  +8 (+10   aboveground)
*Feats:* Flyby Attack, Natural Spell, Self-Sufficient, Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Warm mountains
*Organization:* Solitary or family (mother and 1-2 daughters)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 7
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Any, but usually good or neutral
*Advancement:* by character class
*Level* *Adjustment:* +2

*Combat*

*Bird Shape (Su):* The bird maiden can assume any of the following bird forms:

2 _*Sparrow*_—Tiny Humanoid (Shapechanger); Initiative: +5;  Speed: 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average); AC 17 (+2 size, +5 Dex), touch 17,  flat-footed 12; BAB/Grapple: +4/–6; Attacks: Bite +11 melee (1d3–2);  Abilities: Str 6, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10; Saves: Fort  +7, Ref +7, Will +10; Skills: add Spot +9.

3 _*Duck*_—Tiny Humanoid (Shapechanger);  Initiative: +5;  Speed: 10 ft., swim 20 ft., fly 40 ft. (good); AC 18 (+2 size, +5  Dex, +1 natural),  touch 17, flat-footed 13; BAB/Grapple: +4/–5; Attacks: Bite +11  melee  (1d4–1); Abilities: Str 8, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10;   Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +10; Skills: add Spot +9, Swim +7. 

4 _*Kite*_—Tiny Humanoid (Shapechanger);  Initiative: +5;  Speed: 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (good); AC 18 (+2 size, +5  Dex, +1 natural),  touch 17, flat-footed 13; BAB/Grapple: +4/–4; Attacks: Claws +11 melee  (1d4) and bite +6  melee (1d3); Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con 14, Int  12, Wis 20, Cha 10;  Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +10; Skills: add Spot +9.

5 _*Stork*_—Small Humanoid (Shapechanger);  Initiative: +5;  Speed: 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (average); AC 18 (+1 size, +5  Dex, +2  natural), touch 16, flat-footed 13; BAB/Grapple: +4/+1; Attacks: Bite  +10  melee (1d6+1) and 2 claws +5 melee (1d2); Abilities: Str 12, Dex  21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10;  Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +10; Skills: add Spot +9.

6 _*Eagle*_—Small Humanoid (Shapechanger);  Initiative: +5;  Speed: 10 ft., fly 80 ft. (average); AC 18 (+1 size, +5  Dex, +2  natural), touch 16, flat-footed 13; BAB/Grapple: +4/+2; Attacks: 2 claws  +10  melee (1d3+2) and bite +5 melee (1d4+1); Abilities: Str 14, Dex  21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10;  Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +10; Skills: add Spot +9.

*Rebuke Plant Creatures (Su):* The granted powers of the Bird Maiden's Plant Domain allow her to rebuke or command plant creatures as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead. She can use this ability three times per day.

*Healing Change (Su):* When the bird maiden uses Bird Shape, she can  regain lost hit points as  if she had rested for a night. She  can heal herself in this  fashion twice a day.

*Speak With Animals (Sp):* The granted powers of the Bird Maiden's Animal Domain allow her to use _speak with animals_ once per day as a spell-like ability.

*Spells:* The bird maiden casts spells as a 6th level cleric with the Animal and Plant domains. She also has the granted powers of those clerical domains: rebuke plant creatures and _speak with animals._

_Typical Spells Prepared (5/4+1/4+1/3+1):_ Save DC 15 + spell level.
0—_detect magic, detect poison, purify food and drink, read magic, resistance_;
1st—_deathwatch, detect undead, divine favor, entangle_ (D)_, sanctuary_;
2nd—_aid, barkskin _(D)_, delay poison, enthrall, lesser restoration_;
3rd—_dispel magic_, _dominate animal_ (D), _prayer_, _searing light_.
D = Domain spell.

_Originally from Monstrous Manual (1993)._


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2013)

Whoa, there's something funny with the font color in that working draft, and I can't read it in the "legacy" skin.  Maybe you can reset it back to default?

I actually was assuming a standard monster, rather than a template.  But the CC version of the swanmay is in fact a template.  One prereq should be divine casting for sure...


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## Cleon (Jan 17, 2013)

freyar said:


> Whoa, there's something funny with the font color in that working draft, and I can't read it in the "legacy" skin.  Maybe you can reset it back to default?




Hmm, it appears to have picked up a crop of "COLOR=windowtext" tags that presumably are turning the font colour *black*.

It's all Microsoft Word's fault, since that's what I originally drafted the text in. The only way I could find to remove the formatting from the original document was to strip out all the text formatting and reformat it. Resetting the font color to "Auto" did nothing.

It's a lot easier stripping the COLOR tags out of from the Enworld post.

Bloody Microsoft. 

Reformatting *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> I actually was assuming a standard monster, rather than a template.  But the CC version of the swanmay is in fact a template.  One prereq should be divine casting for sure...




A Swanmay / Bird Maiden makes a lot more sense as a template, since a humanoid lady can become a Swanmay or Bird Maiden by being initiated into their order and they also appear to "breed true", with their daughters becoming Swanmays / Bird Maidens.

Making them a Prestige Class like in _The Book of Exalted Wonder_ doesn't work so well for me, since they start out at pretty low levels (e.g. 2nd level _kahina_ cleric for Bird Maidens). That implies a Prestige Class with such low entrance requirements it might as well be a standard class.

Hmm, Bird Maiden as an alternative cleric class? That would work.

Still, this is a monster conversion board so I think we should make 'em a monster template.


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2013)

Bloody Microsoft is why I exclusively use linux these days. 

I'd go with template, and I'd keep one eye on the CC swanmay while I'm at it.

Anyway, what do you think about the prereqs?


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## Cleon (Jan 21, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'd go with template, and I'd keep one eye on the CC swanmay while I'm at it.




That's my thinking too.



freyar said:


> Anyway, what do you think about the prereqs?




+3 base Will save and ability to cast divine spells? That'd cover the "cleric level 2+" of the original.


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2013)

CC Swanmay for reference.

Those are reasonable prereqs, but I wonder if maybe we should require the ability to cast a certain divine spell (or one of a list) since they all seem to have a nature theme to them.  I wouldn't mind setting it up to make sure we include druids, too.  

Character gains the shapechanger subtype?


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## Cleon (Jan 23, 2013)

freyar said:


> CC Swanmay for reference.
> 
> Those are reasonable prereqs, but I wonder if maybe we should require the ability to cast a certain divine spell (or one of a list) since they all seem to have a nature theme to them.  I wouldn't mind setting it up to make sure we include druids, too.




It'd need to be a 1st level spell that both clerics and druids have on their lists, and I can't think of any that qualify as "nature spells" except possibly _endure elements_, which doesn't seem very "birdy".

Hmm...

How about _calm animal_? A cleric can cast that if the have the Animal domain.



freyar said:


> Character gains the shapechanger subtype?




Yes, I was going to give 'em that. They are supposed to be part of a "Shapechangers batch", after all.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2013)

Hmmm.  How about _calm animals, obscuring mist,_ or _entangle_?  That would pick up a few more of the possible bird maiden domains.


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2013)

freyar said:


> Hmmm.  How about _calm animals, obscuring mist,_ or _entangle_?  That would pick up a few more of the possible bird maiden domains.




Neither _obscuring mist_ or _entangle_ seem very "birdlike" to me. I suppose _obscuring mist_ is the best of those as it's an Air spell.

How about we derive something from their clerical duties and the spheres they have access to:

"All bird maidens are kahina, idol priestesses who believe in the divinity of all things. They live as wandering teachers, protecting the land from those who despoil it. They get along best with those who respect the land: desert riders, mystics, and fisherfolk. In the fertile river valleys, they preach the faith and maintain the fertility of the land and livestock."

"They have major access to the All, Animal, Divination, Elemental, Healing, Plant and Weather spheres and minor access to the Creation, Protection, and Sun spheres"

They appear to have a general duty of healing/purifying nature, which suggests they must be able to perform magical healing - _goodberry_ or _cure light wounds_, etc - but that doesn't narrow it down much.

Those divine magic spheres mostly have direct equivalents as 3E Domains:

*Major Spheres => Domain*
Animal=> Animal
Divination=> Knowledge
Elemental=> [Originally this combined Air, Earth, Fire or Water. I'd likely make it Air only]
Healing=> Healing
Plant=> Plant
Weather => Weather

*Minor Spheres => Domain*
Creation => Creation
Protection => Protection
Sun => Sun

Maybe we should set a prerequisite that it must have certain Domains? That would mean it would have to be a cleric though.

Hmm, _speak with animals_ is a domain power of the Animal Domain, so we could combine that with healing/purifying.

e.g. "A Bird Maiden must be able to cast a spell that can heal other creatures (e.g. _goodberry_, _cure minor wounds_) and have the ability to cast at least three of the following spells: _bless water_, _bless weapon_, _calm animals_, _detect animals or plants_, _pass without trace_ and _purify food and drink_.

That spell list allows any Druid or Paladin to become a Bird Maiden, or any Cleric with the Animal domain.

If we add _bless weapon_ to the list it would allow any Paladin to become a Bird Maiden (or a Cleric with the Glory Domain).


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2013)

See, I'd rather allow more clerics (but not all clerics) as well as druids.  I don't care much about paladins.  The real problem is that you're requiring an Animal domain, where any two from the list Animal, Knowledge, Air, Healing, Plant, or Weather (or maybe the other three) should be sufficient.  That's why I picked those spells, which cover all the listed domains except Knowledge (_detect secret doors_ just doesn't seem right).  Do you have any other ideas that meet the criteria of (1) not including all clerics but (2) including druids and at least clerics with two of the six listed domains?


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## Cleon (Jan 31, 2013)

freyar said:


> See, I'd rather allow more clerics (but not all clerics) as well as druids.  I don't care much about paladins.  The real problem is that you're requiring an Animal domain, where any two from the list Animal, Knowledge, Air, Healing, Plant, or Weather (or maybe the other three) should be sufficient.  That's why I picked those spells, which cover all the listed domains except Knowledge (_detect secret doors_ just doesn't seem right).  Do you have any other ideas that meet the criteria of (1) not including all clerics but (2) including druids and at least clerics with two of the six listed domains?




Yes, I'd rather have more than just "Animal" clerics too.

Hmm, we could use Knowledge (nature)as a prereq. That's a class skill for Druids and Rangers as well as Clerics with the Animal,  Knowledge or Plant domain.

If we have, say "5 ranks in Knowledge (nature)" then other clerics can still qualify if they're willing to pay the cross-class costs.

Hmm, I'd also like Heal as a skill prereq, since there are many mention of their healing activities.


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2013)

How about "5 ranks in Heal and Knowledge (nature) and ability to cast divine spells" as a prereq?


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> How about "5 ranks in Heal and Knowledge (nature) and ability to cast divine spells" as a prereq?




That'd work for me.


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2013)

OK then.  Changes to abilities?  I'd expect a +2 or +4 boost to Wisdom (nothing too big) and maybe Con or Str.  On the other hand, I could limit the physical boosts to the alternate forms, too. What do you think?


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## Cleon (Feb 8, 2013)

freyar said:


> OK then.  Changes to abilities?  I'd expect a +2 or +4 boost to Wisdom (nothing too big) and maybe Con or Str.  On the other hand, I could limit the physical boosts to the alternate forms, too. What do you think?




I'm thinking Dexterity and Wisdom would make more sense.

A bit of a Strength boost would be OK I guess, but avians in D&D don't tend to have very high Constitutions.

We can worry about the Alternate Forms later.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2013)

Hmmm, yeah, I'm not sure what I was thinking exactly.  How about +4 to Wis and maybe +2 Dex (not sure about the latter).


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2013)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, yeah, I'm not sure what I was thinking exactly.  How about +4 to Wis and maybe +2 Dex (not sure about the latter).




I'd rather have it the other way round - +4 Dex, +2 Wis.

They're divine casters, so they should already have high Wisdom scores, plus most of the SRD avians have higher Dexterity than Wisdom.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2013)

I'll update the *Bird Maiden Working Draft* with an prerequisites we'd agreed on.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2013)

I've updatedthe *Bird Maiden Working Draft* with some logical-seeming additions.


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2013)

I don't feel the need to tie them to other SRD avians, since they're rather humanoids that can shapeshift into avians.  But the main reason I picked the larger bonus for Wis is precisely because they're divine casters --- they might already have a good Wis, but they will also benefit the most from the boost.

Whew, the CC swanmay gets quite a few boosts, doesn't it?

Anyway, let's get this settled and then deal with the SQs.  Did I convince you at all?


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## Cleon (Feb 27, 2013)

freyar said:


> I don't feel the need to tie them to other SRD avians, since they're rather humanoids that can shapeshift into avians.




Most humanoids who shapeshift into an animal form have abilities tied to their animal forms, I'm not sure why you think Bird Maidens should be any different.



freyar said:


> But the main reason I picked the larger bonus for Wis is precisely because they're divine casters --- they might already have a good Wis, but they will also benefit the most from the boost.




Well it's because they would benefit a lot from it that I don't think they need that much! 



freyar said:


> Whew, the CC swanmay gets quite a few boosts, doesn't it?




Yes, the CC Swanmay gets +2 to all stats. I suppose we could give the Bird Maiden the same, or maybe leave out Con and give 'em +2 to Str, Dex, Int, Wis and Cha?



freyar said:


> Anyway, let's get this settled and then deal with the SQs.  Did I convince you at all?




You haven't swayed me much so far...


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## freyar (Feb 28, 2013)

Are you thinking of examples outside lycanthropes?

Gee, and I thought you usually liked to ramp monsters up a lot!   I just don't think we can assume they'll have amazing base stats before the template, so I don't mind giving them a hefty Wis boost.

But I could compromise with +2 to everything but Con.  It's not super-flavorful, though.


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2013)

freyar said:


> Are you thinking of examples outside lycanthropes?
> 
> Gee, and I thought you usually liked to ramp monsters up a lot!   I just don't think we can assume they'll have amazing base stats before the template, so I don't mind giving them a hefty Wis boost.
> 
> But I could compromise with +2 to everything but Con.  It's not super-flavorful, though.




Well they're mostly clerics, so I think it's fairly safe to assume a typical Bird Maiden has Wis 14-15 as a base creature.

If you're really keen on Wis +4 I can go along with it, but I still like a decent Dex bonus for them. They can't wear armor or shields and have AC 7, suggesting either Dex 17 or skin like leather. The Enworld version of the Swanmay has a +3 natural armour, but the _Book of Exalted Deeds_ Swanmay has no NA bonus. I'd prefer them to be "soft skinned" in human form though.

Hmm, the AD&D _Book of Humanoids_ version has a Natural Armor Class 7. It also has stat bonuses of +1 Dex and +1 Wis, with the following stat ranges:

*Ability Score Range*
*Ability*
*Minimum**
*Maximum*Strength
13/918Dexterity
13/918Constitution
14/1218Intelligence
9/12
18Wisdom14/1219Charisma9/1518
  * The second number is for the druid class. These ability score minimums include the class minimums.

We should a few more ability bonuses too, so I don't disappoint your expectation about my desire for ramping monsters up a lot. 

How about Str +2, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +2?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2013)

Are those for the swanmay or bird maiden?  Anyway, I will go along with your proposed ability bonuses except for Int.  The minimum listed doesn't justify it, I think.


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> Are those for the swanmay or bird maiden?  Anyway, I will go along with your proposed ability bonuses except for Int.  The minimum listed doesn't justify it, I think.




The _Book of Humanoids_ stats are for a Swanmay, yes.

I don't mind cutting the +2 Int from the Bird Maiden - the Swanmay has a better Int range according to the _Monstrous Compendium_ - Highly to Genius vs Average to Genius, or 13-18 vs 8-18. That's a mean of 15.5 for the Swanmay and 13 for the Bird Maiden, suggesting a Bird Maiden's Int modifier should be a step lower than the Swanmay's.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2013)

So we are set with Str +2, Dex +6, Wis +4, Cha +2?

Ready for SQs?


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## Cleon (Mar 15, 2013)

freyar said:


> So we are set with Str +2, Dex +6, Wis +4, Cha +2?




Yup. Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Ready for SQs?




Sure.

The current Alternate Form stats works for me pretty well, but it needs an initial paragraph setting out the rules.

I do like the idea of dividing it into several versions with slightly different abilities in their bird forms - keen eyed day birds, night birds with superior low-light vision, water birds with a swim speed, or whatever. Can you think of any more?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2013)

Hmmm, why don't we allow them to take any bird form?  Or specify a list of birds from the SRD/CC?


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## Cleon (Mar 20, 2013)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, why don't we allow them to take any bird form?  Or specify a list of birds from the SRD/CC?




The original _Monstrous Manual_ writeup is vague about what bird forms a Bird Maiden can take, all it says is "They can assume many bird shapes, including falcons, swallows, parrots, and even (at 8th level) giant eagles".

However, _The Ecology of the Bird Maiden_ article from _Dragon #218_ offers a table to specify what bird forms they can take (reproduced below), and adds a note that "It is rumored that evil bird maidens are able to shapechange into ravens, blood hawks, and giant vultures."

Well I do want them be able to take on a range of bird forms dependant on their class level or HD limit, I do fancy their  being some differences in "vocabulary" between two Maidens of the same  ability to reflect differences in their ethos & nature. e.g. an evil  bird maiden may have the form of a Condor instead of a Giant Eagle, but  its combat stats will be the same. In any case, I'd want the  differences to be basically cosmetic.

We could leave it to flavour text, I suppose.

*Bird Maiden Bird Form Table from Dragon #218*

*Level**Bird form**AC**MV**HD**THAC0**#AT**Dmg*2Parakeet91, Fl 241/220113Swallow81, Fl 301-120114Parrot61, Fl 301+11912-45Falcon51, Fl 361-12031/1/16Owl51, Fl 2711931-2/1-2/17Eagle, Wild61, Fl 301+31831/2/1-2/l8Eagle, Giant73, FL 4841531-6/1-6/2-12


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2013)

It just seems like listing bird types would be easier than providing stats.  But if you want to do something like this, maybe the Beast Form spells (or however they're called) from Pathfinder would help.


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## Cleon (Mar 25, 2013)

freyar said:


> It just seems like listing bird types would be easier than providing stats.  But if you want to do something like this, maybe the Beast Form spells (or however they're called) from Pathfinder would help.




Why don't you post a version of Alternate Form that uses "listing bird types" so I have an idea what you have in mind?

I'm not sure it would be easier in practice. If we say "at level X a bird maiden can turn into a hawk" or whatever, that means the poor DM has to look up a hawk and work out all the stats for that Alternate Form, then do the same for all the other alternate forms the Bird Maiden has.

Actually giving numbers in the SQ is probably less arduous in the long run.

Although if we're not using standard Alternate Form I guess we should give the SQ a different name.

Maybe "Bird Form"? Not very original, but it does the job.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2013)

It's traditional at least to have the DM do the work, not all the poor designers. 

The problem is a lack of small bird stats in 3.5e (and earlier editions).  So I guess I'm coming around to your point of view.  But cribbing from Pathfinder, I'd say they take the form of a bird and get certain flight speeds, ability bonuses, etc, based on their HD, with maybe a few things depending on the type of bird.


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2013)

freyar said:


> It's traditional at least to have the DM do the work, not all the poor designers.
> 
> The problem is a lack of small bird stats in 3.5e (and earlier editions).  So I guess I'm coming around to your point of view.  But cribbing from Pathfinder, I'd say they take the form of a bird and get certain flight speeds, ability bonuses, etc, based on their HD, with maybe a few things depending on the type of bird.




I have a feeling we're basically after the same thing.

Do we want seven "grades" of bird like the _Dragon Magazine_ version?

Something like.

2 - Tiny, slow (pigeon, duck)
3 - Tiny, agile (raven, parrot)
4 - Tiny, fast (Swallow, hobby)
5 - Tiny raptor (hawk, kite)
6 - Small raptor (eagle owl, eagle)
7 - Medium raptor (blood hawk, boobrie)
8 - Large raptor (giant eagle, giant owl)

Oh, I'm thinking the Bird Maiden should be able to speak while in bird form, since I vaguely recall some Arabian Tales that featured talking birds.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2013)

I'll go along with speaking, sure.  I assume that means they can still cast, too.

What do the numbers represent there?  I don't know if we need quite that many different grades, but, yes, I think we're agree that that's the way to go.  I still think we can crib the bird-like parts from the Beast Shape spells in Pathfinder.


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## Cleon (Apr 2, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'll go along with speaking, sure.  I assume that means they can still cast, too.
> 
> What do the numbers represent there?  I don't know if we need quite that many different grades, but, yes, I think we're agree that that's the way to go.  I still think we can crib the bird-like parts from the Beast Shape spells in Pathfinder.




Well, I'd be OK with giving it the 4 size options in the Working Draft, but I wouldn't mind adding a intermediate sizes so the HD range matches the original.

Something like so, perhaps?


*Minimum
Hit Dice*
**Size*
*Speed**NA**
**Claws
**Bite
**Abilities*†2Tiny40 ft. (average)+11d3***
—-6 Str, +2 Dex3Tiny40 ft. (good)+11d4***—-4 Str, +2 Dex4Tiny60 ft. (good)+11d4d3-2 Str, +2 Dex5Small60 ft. (average)+21d3/1d31d4+0 Str, +2 Dex6Small60 ft. (average)+21d3/1d31d4+2 Str, +2 Dex7Medium80 ft. (average)+31d4/1d41d6+4 Str, +2 Dex8Large80 ft. (average)+41d6/1d61d8+8 Str, +2 Dex


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2013)

That looks good if you want to include the footnotes!


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## Cleon (Apr 9, 2013)

freyar said:


> That looks good if you want to include the footnotes!




There doesn't seem much difference between the 5 HD and 6 HD stages. I'm thinking we could make the 6 HD faster (80 ft.?) or the 5 HD a clumsy flier, just to distinguish the two. Then the 5 HD bird could be a hefty, clumsy real-world bird like a Shoebill Stork or *Giant Hornbill*, while the speedy 6 HD stage could be something like a *Harpy Eagle*.

I'd also consider tweaking the damage.

Come to think of it, the SRD Eagle is Small, with an 80 ft. (average) fly speed, 1d4/1d4 talons and a 1d4 bite. I think we'd better set the 6 HD stage to be at least equal to an Eagle, don't you?


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## Cleon (Apr 9, 2013)

Cleon said:


> There doesn't seem much difference between the 5 HD and 6 HD stages. I'm thinking we could make the 6 HD faster (80 ft.?) or the 5 HD a clumsy flier, just to distinguish the two. Then the 5 HD bird could be a hefty, clumsy real-world bird like a Shoebill Stork or *Giant Hornbill*, while the speedy 6 HD stage could be something like a *Harpy Eagle*.
> 
> I'd also consider tweaking the damage.
> 
> Come to think of it, the SRD Eagle is Small, with an 80 ft. (average) fly speed, 1d4/1d4 talons and a 1d4 bite. I think we'd better set the 6 HD stage to be at least equal to an Eagle, don't you?




Upon reflection we could base the 6 HD step on the Blood Hawk, which is Small, Str 13, 80 ft. (average) fly speed and 1d3+1/1d3+1 claws plus 1d4 bite in the _Fiend Folio_.


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## Cleon (Apr 9, 2013)

I'll take a shot at a proposal for the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*...

*Bird Shape (Su):* A bird maiden can use her enchanted feather garment (see below) to shapechange into a bird. This ability functions like the Alternate Form special ability, except as noted here. The bird forms have the abilities given in the Bird Shape Table  (see below) instead of the normal abilities granted by Alternate Form.

A novice bird maiden can only assume the form of a tiny songbird, but more experienced bird maidens can take on many bird forms. The maiden chooses a bird form to change into at character level 2, based on the example forms in the Bird Shape Table, then an additional bird form at each subsequent level up to level 8. A bird maiden's chosen forms often reflect aspects of her character in some fashion. For example, a secretive bird maiden might have a nightjar as her 3rd level form, while a garrulous one may become a raven or mynah bird.

At  9th level she can change from one bird form to another bird form  without having to return to humanoid form in-between.

At 10th level, she  is no longer limited to the seven bird forms she selected previously, but can assume the form of any bird from Tiny size to Large size. 


*Level¹
**Example Form**Size**Fly Speed*
*NA²**Attacks³**Abilities†*2Nightingale, SparrowTiny40 ft. (average)—Bite 1d3-6 Str, +2 Dex3Dove, Ibis, ParrotTiny40 ft. (good)+1Bite 1d4-4 Str, +2 Dex4Hawk, Owl, KiteTiny60 ft. (good)+1Claws 1d4 and bite 1d3-2 Str, +2 Dex5Hornbill, Stork,
Giant ParrotSmall60 ft. (average)+2Bite 1d6 and 2 claws 1d2+0 Str, +2 Dex6Bloodhawk, EagleSmall80 ft. (average)+22 claws 1d3 and bite 1d4+2 Str, +2 Dex7Dire Hawk, BoobrieMedium80 ft. (average)+32 claws 1d4 and bite 1d6+4 Str, +2 Dex8Giant Owl, Giant EagleLarge80 ft. (average)+42 claws 1d6 and bite 1d8+8 Str, +2 Dex
 *1* A bird maiden with this many character levels can assume a bird  form of this class. Higher level bird maidens can still assume the smaller  forms.
* 2* A bird maiden's natural armor bonus increases by this amount when it is in this class of bird form.
*3* The 2nd and 3rd level bird forms have a single bite attack; the 4th level form has a single claws attack and a secondary bite attack; the 5th level form has a bite attack and two secondary claw attacks; the 6th to 8th level forms have two claw attacks and a secondary bite attack.
*†* A bird maiden's ability scores are adjusted by these values when in bird  form. These modifiers are in addition to the bird maiden's normal  ability adjustments and include size adjustments based on the assumption  the base creature is Medium sized.
   — If the bird maiden's base creature  is of a smaller size, adjust the Strength modifier according to the  Changes to Statistics by Size table in Improving Monsters (e.g. add +4  Str for a Small base creature), but do not adjust the Dexterity or  natural armor modifiers.
—    If the base creature is larger than Medium, increase the sizes of the bird forms and their natural weapon damage by the same degree (e.g. a Large bird maiden's 5th level form is Medium instead of Small, with a 1d8 bite and two 1d3 secondary claws), but do not modify any of the other stats.

A bird maiden can assume any of her bird forms at will as a standard action. The effect lasts for 1 hour per character level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to bird or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

When a bird maiden uses Bird Shape, she can regain lost hit points as if she had rested for a night. A bird maiden can heal herself in this fashion once a day for every 3 character levels she possesses.

Any gear worn or carried by the bird maiden melds into the new form and  becomes nonfunctional. When the maiden reverts to her true form, any  objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same  location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again  functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at  the maiden's feet.

A bird maiden can speak normally while in bird form, which allows her to cast spells with verbal components. Bird Maidens can select the Natural Spell feat as if their Bird Shape ability were the druid's Wild Shape ability.


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## Cleon (Apr 9, 2013)

Cleon said:


> I'll take a shot at a proposal for the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*...




Upon reflection, I would rather cut the auto-healing bit out to a separate SQ, since it makes it easier to keep track of it:

*Healing Change (Su):* When a bird maiden uses Bird Shape, she can regain lost hit points as if she had rested for a night. A bird maiden can heal herself in this fashion once a day for every 3 character levels she possesses.


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2013)

Cleon said:


> I'll take a shot at a proposal for the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*...




I'm thinking of expanding the bit before the table as follows.

*Bird Shape (Su):* A bird maiden can use her enchanted feather  garment (see below) to shapechange into a bird. A novice bird maiden can only assume the form of a tiny songbird, but  more experienced bird maidens can take on many bird forms. This ability functions  like the Alternate Form special ability, except as noted here.

A bird maiden  chooses a bird form to change into at character level 2, based on the  example forms in the Bird Shape Table, then an additional bird form at  each subsequent level up to level 8.

At  9th level she can change from one bird form to another bird form  without having to return to humanoid form in-between.

At 10th level, she  is no longer limited to the seven bird forms she  selected previously, but can assume the form of any bird from Tiny size  to Large size.

A bird form must be that of a bird the bird maiden is familiar with. A bird maiden's chosen bird forms need not match the size of the actual  bird - there are maidens who can change into pigeon-size peafowl or  halfling-sized macaws.

The maiden's chosen forms may  reflect aspects of her character in some fashion. For example, a  secretive bird maiden could have a nightjar as her 3rd level form, while  a garrulous one may become a raven or mynah bird.

The bird form has the abilities given in the Bird Shape Table presented below  instead of the abilities normally granted by Alternate Form. They do not gain any special abilities or racial bonuses of the actual bird, such as a Giant Owl's superior low light vision and +8 racial bonus to Listen, or a buzzard's scent ability, with one exception: If the bird has a swim speed, the bird form gains a swim speed equal to the actual bird or half the bird form's fly speed, whichever is less.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2013)

Hey, that looks pretty good!  I think we can stick with that.


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## Cleon (Apr 26, 2013)

freyar said:


> Hey, that looks pretty good!  I think we can stick with that.




Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.

What shall we do next?


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## freyar (May 2, 2013)

Let's sort out Evasion and DR.  First off, where do you get Evasion from?  I don't see anything like it in the original text.  DR is probably 5/magic, but we could set it to something that scales with their HD or character level.


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## Cleon (May 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> Let's sort out Evasion and DR.  First off, where do you get Evasion from?  I don't see anything like it in the original text.  DR is probably 5/magic, but we could set it to something that scales with their HD or character level.




I included Evasion because they can assume the form of *Giant Eagles*, which have that special quality in 3E. I'd be OK having it kick in at a particular HD, but think they'd better have it in all bird forms once they acquire it.

As for the Damage Reduction, I'd favor having it scale with character level/HD. Since the AD&D original Bird Maidens require +2 weapons to hit, I'd go for DR 5/magic at low levels and DR 10/magic at higher levels. I'm open to argument as to what level the switchover occurs.


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## freyar (May 15, 2013)

If we give them evasion, I'd give it to them in any form.  I'd probably have it kick in at some HD level, but I might give it to all of them.  OTOH, I'm not 100% convinced to give it to them at all.

I'll agree with that plan on the DR.  Probably switch over around 5 HD.


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## Cleon (May 18, 2013)

freyar said:


> If we give them evasion, I'd give it to them in any form.  I'd probably have it kick in at some HD level, but I might give it to all of them.  OTOH, I'm not 100% convinced to give it to them at all.
> 
> I'll agree with that plan on the DR.  Probably switch over around 5 HD.




I'm open to negotiation on the Evasion, I'd be OK having it kick in at a certain HD level. Maybe at 8 HD, since that's when they can assume Giant Eagle form, and that's the only monster on their sample shape list that has Evasion.

So, we're talking:

 2-4 HD - DR 5/magic
5-7 HD - DR 10/magic
8+ HD - Evasion


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## freyar (May 22, 2013)

OK, I'll go for that.  Seems reasonable enough, since by 8+ HD the DR probably isn't going to do them a whole lot of good anyway.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> OK, I'll go for that.  Seems reasonable enough, since by 8+ HD the DR probably isn't going to do them a whole lot of good anyway.




Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft* with.

_Damage Reduction (Ex):_ A bird maiden gains damage reduction 5/magic when in bird form. This DR increases to 10/magic at 5th level.

_Evasion (Ex):_ Starting at 8th level, a bird maiden gains  evasion when in bird form. If the bird maiden already has evasion when in her  humanoid form, she gains improved evasion when in bird form.


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## freyar (May 28, 2013)

I'd actually give them DR and Evasion in both human and bird form, but I won't be too picky if it's a big deal to you.

Time for the special feather garment?  Or do you want to consider a special attack?


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'd actually give them DR and Evasion in both human and bird form, but I won't be too picky if it's a big deal to you.




So you'd prefer?

_Evasion (Ex):_ Starting at 8th level, a bird maiden gains  evasion. If the bird maiden already has evasion, she gains improved evasion instead.

I suppose I could accept that, 'though it seems a bit munchkiny. 

I preferred the bird-form only Evasion, since it give her a bit more reason to fight while "feathered up".



freyar said:


> Time for the special feather garment?  Or do you want to consider a special attack?




I'm OK with it as a Special Quality. I guess we can just rework the Selkie's magic garment.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2013)

Well, except for this line in the original monster:



> In bird form, bird maidens can peck and claw, but most don’t fight as birds.




So I'd go for the munchkiny version. 

I didn't mean to make the garment an SA (and I agree with re-working the selkie or loup-du-noir).  I meant to ask whether there is another SA you'd like to add.


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> Well, except for this line in the original monster:
> 
> So I'd go for the munchkiny version.




That's 'cause most can only assume the shape of Parrots of Wrens, which are hardly very combat worthy. The ones that can become Giant Eagles are likely to use it to fight!

Anyhow, I suppose we could give her Evasion in human form.

Or maybe we could stagger it too, so she starts out evasion-less, then gets it in bird form, then gets it in bird and humanoid form.



freyar said:


> I didn't mean to make the garment an SA (and I agree with re-working the selkie or loup-du-noir).  I meant to ask whether there is another SA you'd like to add.




Oh, you mean in addition to what we've got.

I don't think we need to add anymore SAs. She'll have her spells and class abilities to fall back on, after all.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2013)

I would be fine with staggering Evasion (that came out funny), but I'd just give them DR and Evasion in both forms.

OK, in that case, shall we deal with the garment SQ now?


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## Cleon (Jun 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> I would be fine with staggering Evasion (that came out funny), but I'd just give them DR and Evasion in both forms.




Come to think of it I was going to go for DR in both bird and humanoid form, since IIRC the original monster entry did not limit its "+2 weapons to hit" to the bird form. I do still like the notion of restricting the Evasion to its bird form, e.g.:

_Damage Reduction (Ex):_ A bird maiden gains damage reduction 5/magic. This DR increases to 10/magic at 5th level.

_Evasion (Ex):_ Starting at 8th level, a bird maiden gains  evasion  when in bird form. If the bird maiden already has evasion when in her   humanoid form, she gains improved evasion when in bird form.

But failing that, I prefer a "staggered" approach:

_Damage Reduction (Ex):_ A bird maiden gains damage reduction 5/magic. This DR increases to 10/magic at 5th level.

_Evasion (Ex):_ Starting at 8th level, a bird maiden gains  evasion  when in bird form. At 10th level, she gains evasion in humanoid form. If a bird maiden already has evasion from another source, such as levels in the Rogue class, she gains improved evasion instead.

Hmm, the wording of the above could do with some work.



freyar said:


> OK, in that case, shall we deal with the garment SQ now?




We can start talking about it, sure.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2013)

I'd go with the staggered version.  Work for you?

Here are some abilities to compare for the garment:



			
				Silkie said:
			
		

> Magic Sealskin (Su): All silkies possess an enchanted sealskin which allows them to assume seal form (see Alternate Form, above). Should another creature steal this skin, a silkie is unable to attack them unless the skin's thief attacks the silkie first (as per the affect of the sanctuary spell). Furthermore, the silkie has a -4 penalty to resist all Charisma-based skills and saves against enchantment spells performed by the skin-thief.
> 
> If a silkie's sealskin is destroyed, the silkie is able to create a new one by performing an hour-long ritual in the Land Under Wave with the assistance of a silkie with a magic sealskin.






			
				Loup du Noir said:
			
		

> Magic Wolfskin: All loups du noir possess an enchanted wolfskin which allows them to assume wolf form (see Alternate Form, above). While in wolf form, the wolfskin grants the loup du noir darkvision 60 ft, the scent ability, damage reduction 10/good or silver, immunity to charms and compulsions, and a +4 resistance bonus on saves vs mind-affecting affects.
> 
> If a loup du noir loses its magic wolfskin, it cannot take wolf form until it replaces the wolfskin. This requires the ritual killing of a canine of at least Large size in single combat, followed by skinning the victim. Alternately, the skinless loup du noir can murder another loup du noir and steal their wolfskin.
> 
> If a loup do noir dies, a humanoid in possession of its magic wolfskin can become a loup du noir by performing a profane ceremony with the skin. This requires a successful DC 20 check against Handle Animal, Knowledge (arcana), Survival, or Use Magic Device.




They're fairly similar. I guess I'd modify the silkie's version, since it's a bit simpler.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'd go with the staggered version.  Work for you?




It does, yes.

Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft* with.



freyar said:


> They're fairly similar. I guess I'd modify the silkie's version, since it's a bit simpler.




Most of the complication of the Loup is about how they can acquire and replace their wolfskin. The Bird Maiden's only have one feather garment, which they obtain upon their "initiation", and they die if the garment is destroyed.

That's a lot closer to the Silkie version.

I've got a few ideas about how to do it, but that can wait til later.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2013)

How's this?

Feather Garment (Su): All bird maidens possess an enchanted feather garment which allows them to assume bird form (see Bird Shape, above), low-light vision, damage reduction, and evasion. Should another creature steal this garment, a bird maiden is unable to attack them unless the thief attacks the bird maiden first (as per the affect of the sanctuary spell). Furthermore, the silkie has a -4 penalty to resist all Charisma-based skills and saves against enchantment spells performed by the garment-thief.

If a bird maiden's feather garment is destroyed, the bird maiden dies.


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2013)

freyar said:


> How's this?
> 
> Feather Garment (Su): All bird maidens possess an enchanted feather garment which allows them to assume bird form (see Bird Shape, above), low-light vision, damage reduction, and evasion. Should another creature steal this garment, a bird maiden is unable to attack them unless the thief attacks the bird maiden first (as per the affect of the sanctuary spell). Furthermore, the silkie has a -4 penalty to resist all Charisma-based skills and saves against enchantment spells performed by the garment-thief.
> 
> If a bird maiden's feather garment is destroyed, the bird maiden dies.




Looks a good start. I'm inclined to drop the penalty to Cha-skills and enchantments, as there's nothing like it in the original.

The mention of evasion needs tweaking as only more experienced maidens have it.

Finally, I'd like a bit more info in the "destroying the garment kills the maiden" bit.
_
How hard is it to destroy the garment?_
Presumably it can't be damaged while the maiden wears it (like a symbiont) and only has a few hit points with no hardness when seperated. I'd suspect it's also rather flammable.

_How quickly does the maiden die?
_Is it immediate, at the end of the round, gradual (Con damage per round or a constantly increasing Fort save vs death?)

What happens if they're raised or ressurected?
My guess is a _raise dead_ returns to life but without the Bird Maiden template. We could have high-powered magic (_wish_? _true resurrection_?) restore the garment and return them to life as Bird Maidens.

...which rather begs the question as to how they gain this template in the first place.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2013)

Aren't they given the template by a ceremony presided over by senior bird maidens at the end of their training?

Here's some info:


> 3. The power of a bird maiden resides in a shawl, veil, or other significant object of clothing that is made of feathers. This object is given to her at the end of her initial training. If she ever loses it, she loses all her powers as kahina and shapechanger until she recovers it. Unscrupulous men have been known to come into the possession of a bird maiden’s feathered garment, and with the creature helpless, have forced her into marriage.
> 
> 4. Destruction of the feathered token of the bird maiden always results in the creature’s death with no hope whatsoever of resurrection.



I'd actually say it sounds like there is some kind of Cha penalty, or at least a penalty vs intimidation.

How about this revision?

Feather Garment (Su): All bird maidens possess an enchanted feather garment which allows them to assume bird form (see Bird Shape, above), low-light vision, damage reduction, and evasion (if the bird maiden possesses it from the template). Should another creature steal this garment, a bird maiden is unable to attack them unless the thief attacks the bird maiden first (as per the affect of the sanctuary spell). Furthermore, the silkie has a -4 penalty to resist all Charisma-based skills and saves against enchantment spells performed by the garment-thief.

If a bird maiden's feather garment is destroyed (X hp, no hardness, takes double damage from fire), the bird maiden dies at the end of that round.  A bird maiden killed in this way cannot be returned from the dead by any means short of divine intervention.


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2013)

freyar said:


> Aren't they given the template by a ceremony presided over by senior bird maidens at the end of their training?




If I remember the source material correctly, they get the feather garments from a Temple run by Aarakocra.

Let's check...



			
				Monster Manual said:
			
		

> Rumors tell of a great wooden fortress among the clouds of the high hills, called the Crown of All Feathers, where young bird maidens are taught the rituals and duties of kahinas by the Aarakocra.




So, they get clerical training from Aarakocra, but there's nothing about were there feathered garment comes from.

The _Dragon_ ecology article has this to add:



			
				Dragon #218 said:
			
		

> 8. The place of training for bird maidens is said to be a place called the Crown of All Feathers. It is supposedly a great wooden fortress concealed among the clouds in high hills or mountains. There aarakocra teach the rituals, duties, and abilities of the bird maidens. It is rumored that a very special genie of enormous power guards this place and uses powerful illusions to keep it safe from the curious and unsavory. All bird maidens know where this place is, but no sort of magical compulsion or physical abuse can pry the location from them.




The Swanway entry's not any help about how they get their version of the garment. It just says the Swanmays' sorority is extremely secretive, lives in communal "lodges", and only accepts humans by invitation only.


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2013)

freyar said:


> Here's some info:
> 
> I'd actually say it sounds like there is some kind of Cha penalty, or at least a penalty vs intimidation.
> 
> How about this revision?




The Dragon article says they lose all their clerical powers (A "kahina" is an Al-Qadim cleric class) if they lose their feathered garment and will die if the garment is destroyed. Power of life-or-death would seem to be enough for an evil shawl-napper to extort obedience.

I did consider suggesting adding a proviso that any harmful spell cast on the shawl will affect the Bird Maiden regardless of distance. What do you think of that idea?

Not keen on it being impossible to return a shawl-destroyed Bird Maiden to life "by any means short of divine intervention".  I'd rather we use a similar rule to Outsiders or Elementals, e.g.:

Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as _raise dead_, _reincarnate_, and _resurrection_, don’t work on a bird maiden whose feather garment has been destroyed. It takes a different magical effect, such as _limited wish_, _wish_, _miracle_, or _true resurrection_, to restore it to life, which also recreates the maiden's feather garment.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2013)

Well, ok, aarakocra do the training, but it still seems like the garment must come along with that.

How about a compromise?  No penalty vs Cha-based stuff but also divine intervention required to resurrect?  I could go either way on the "spooky action at a distance" attacks on the garment.


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## Cleon (Jul 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> Well, ok, aarakocra do the training, but it still seems like the garment must come along with that.
> 
> How about a compromise?  No penalty vs Cha-based stuff but also divine intervention required to resurrect?  I could go either way on the "spooky action at a distance" attacks on the garment.




If forced to compromise, I'd rather do it the other way round - let wish/miracle/true resurrection return them to life and give them a penalty vs. certain attacks from someone who's stolen their feather garment (maybe Will and Cha-based).


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2013)

Well, how about this?  I could drop the penalty vs Cha-based skills perhaps, but I'm now leaning against casting spells on the garment and having them affect the bird maiden.

Feather Garment (Su): All bird maidens possess an enchanted feather garment which allows them to assume bird form (see Bird Shape, above), low-light vision, damage reduction, and evasion (if the bird maiden possesses it from the template). Should another creature steal this garment, a bird maiden is unable to attack them unless the thief attacks the bird maiden first (as per the affect of the sanctuary spell). Furthermore, the bird maiden has a -4 penalty to resist all Charisma-based skills and saves against enchantment spells performed by the garment-thief.

If a bird maiden's feather garment is destroyed (X hp, no hardness, takes double damage from fire), the bird maiden dies at the end of that round.  Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on a bird maiden whose feather garment has been destroyed. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life, which also recreates the maiden's feather garment.


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2013)

freyar said:


> Well, how about this?  I could drop the penalty vs Cha-based skills perhaps, but I'm now leaning against casting spells on the garment and having them affect the bird maiden.
> 
> Feather Garment (Su): All bird maidens possess an enchanted feather garment which allows them to assume bird form (see Bird Shape, above), low-light vision, damage reduction, and evasion (if the bird maiden possesses it from the template). Should another creature steal this garment, a bird maiden is unable to attack them unless the thief attacks the bird maiden first (as per the affect of the sanctuary spell). Furthermore, the bird maiden has a -4 penalty to resist all Charisma-based skills and saves against enchantment spells performed by the garment-thief.
> 
> If a bird maiden's feather garment is destroyed (X hp, no hardness, takes double damage from fire), the bird maiden dies at the end of that round.  Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on a bird maiden whose feather garment has been destroyed. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life, which also recreates the maiden's feather garment.




I'm still against adding the _sanctuary_ effect. There's nothing like that in the original material.

So how about:

*Feather Garment (Su):* All bird maidens possess an enchanted feather  garment which grants them all the other special qualities of this template (bird shape, low-light vision, damage reduction, and possibly evasion). Should another creature steal this  garment, the garment-thief gains a +4 bonus when using Charisma-based skills and attacks with Will-based saving throw DCs against the bird maiden.

While a bird maiden wears her feather garment, it cannot be damaged by any form of attack, but should the maiden doff the garment it can be attacked normally. If the feathered garment is destroyed (X hp, no hardness,  takes double damage from fire), the bird maiden automatically dies at the end of that round. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as _raise dead_, _ reincarnate_, and _resurrection_, don't work on a bird maiden whose feather  garment has been destroyed. It takes a different magical effect, such  as _limited wish_, _wish_, _miracle_, or _true resurrection_, to restore it to  life, which also recreates the maiden's feather garment.


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2013)

Mmmm.  I like it all except for the "cannot be damaged at all if worn" bit.  How about it takes damage as a magic item if worn (ie, only on saving throw roll of 1)?


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## Cleon (Aug 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> Mmmm.  I like it all except for the "cannot be damaged at all if worn" bit.  How about it takes damage as a magic item if worn (ie, only on saving throw roll of 1)?




Well the original description makes no mention of attackers being able  to target a worn feather garment, so I didn't see the need to invent an  additional vulnerability. Especially as the feather garment has so few  HPs that making it susceptible to damage while worn would significantly increases the Bird Maidens vulnerability.

You might be able to persuade me that some of the rules of a 3E symbiont apply:

*Symbiont Traits:* While attached to a host, a symbiont acts on its host's turn each round, regardless of its own initiative modifier. It is not flat-footed unless its host is, and it is aware of any danger its host is aware of. If clearly visible, opponents can attack the symbiont instead of the host creature. This works the same way as attacking an object. The symbiont gains the benefit of the host's Dexterity modifier to AC instead of its own, and gains any deflection bonus to AC the host has as well. Its own size modifier and natural armor bonus apply. Attacking a symbiont instead of its host provokes an attack of opportunity from the host.

A symbiont never takes damage from attacks directed at the host. Like a worn magic item, a symbiont is usually unaffected by spells that damage the host, but if the host rolls a 1 on its saving throw, the symbiont is one of the "items" that can be affected by the spell. A symbiont uses its host's base saving throw bonuses if they are better than its own.

Any spell the host creature casts on itself automatically also affects the symbiont. Additionally, the host may cast a spell with a target of "You" on the symbiont instead of on itself. The symbiont may do likewise with any spell or spell-like ability it uses. The host and symbiont can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the host's or the symbiont's type. Spells targeted on the host by another spellcaster do not affect the symbiont, and vice versa.

Care to try convincing me?

Come to think of it, the previous "skin wearer" shapeshifters we've done - the Loup du Noir and Silkie - did not include any rules about how or whether the skin could be targeted/damaged while worn, so we could just leave it out in the same manner.


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2013)

I guess it's fair to leave it out and leave the interpretation to the DM.  But what I was suggesting was just the second paragraph of the symbiont rules and the default for magic items.


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## Cleon (Aug 29, 2013)

freyar said:


> I guess it's fair to leave it out and leave the interpretation to the DM.  But what I was suggesting was just the second paragraph of the symbiont rules and the default for magic items.




So shall we leave it out to spare us yet another pointless argument passionate debate?

e.g.:

*Feather Garment (Su):* All bird maidens possess an enchanted  feather  garment which grants them all the other special qualities of  this template (bird shape, low-light vision, damage reduction, and  possibly evasion). Should another creature steal this  garment, the  garment-thief gains a +4 bonus when using Charisma-based skills or attacks with Will saving throws against the bird maiden.

If the feathered garment is destroyed (X hp, no  hardness,  takes double damage from fire), the bird maiden automatically  dies at the end of that round. Spells that restore souls to their  bodies, such as _raise dead_, _ reincarnate_, and _resurrection_, don't work on a bird maiden whose feather  garment has been destroyed. It takes a different magical effect, such  as _limited wish_, _wish_, _miracle_, or _true resurrection_, to restore it to  life, which also recreates the maiden's feather garment.


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2013)

Very good, then.  I'd go for about 20 hp, maybe 10 hp if you want them fragile.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> Very good, then.  I'd go for about 20 hp, maybe 10 hp if you want them fragile.




That seems rather high. A thick wooden door has 20 hit points, and we're talking a few feathers here.

I was thinking something like 5 hit points.


----------



## freyar (Sep 13, 2013)

It's just a few feathers, but it is magical.  And I wouldn't want it to be too easy to destroy with, say, just a match.  How about 8 hp?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> It's just a few feathers, but it is magical.  And I wouldn't want it to be too easy to destroy with, say, just a match.  How about 8 hp?




A tindertwig does 1 point of fire damage at the most so it wouldn't be _that_ easy.

I'd be OK compromising with 8 or 10 hit points.

If you want to make it harder to destroy, how about the feather garment has DR or hardness so it's pretty resistant to non-fire attacks?


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## freyar (Oct 4, 2013)

Let's say 8 hp, hardness 2.  Does that work for you?


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> Let's say 8 hp, hardness 2.  Does that work for you?




That'd be OK, although giving it hardness feels a bit odd:

*Feather Garment (Su):* All bird maidens possess an enchanted   feather  garment which grants them all the other special qualities of   this template (bird shape, low-light vision, damage reduction, and   possibly evasion). Should another creature steal this  garment, the   garment-thief gains a +4 bonus when using Charisma-based skills or  attacks with Will saving throws against the bird maiden.

If the feathered garment is destroyed (8 hp, hardness 2,  takes double  damage from fire), the bird maiden automatically  dies at the end of  that round. Spells that restore souls to their  bodies, such as _raise dead_, _ reincarnate_, and _resurrection_, don't work on a bird maiden whose feather  garment has been destroyed. It takes a different magical effect, such  as _limited wish_, _wish_, _miracle_, or _true resurrection_, to restore it to  life, which also recreates the maiden's feather garment.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2013)

Cleon said:


> That'd be OK, although giving it hardness feels a bit odd:
> 
> *Feather Garment (Su):* All bird maidens possess an enchanted   feather  garment which grants them all the other special qualities of   this template (bird shape, low-light vision, damage reduction, and   possibly evasion). Should another creature steal this  garment, the   garment-thief gains a +4 bonus when using Charisma-based skills or  attacks with Will saving throws against the bird maiden.
> 
> If the feathered garment is destroyed (8 hp, hardness 2,  takes double  damage from fire), the bird maiden automatically  dies at the end of  that round. Spells that restore souls to their  bodies, such as _raise dead_, _ reincarnate_, and _resurrection_, don't work on a bird maiden whose feather  garment has been destroyed. It takes a different magical effect, such  as _limited wish_, _wish_, _miracle_, or _true resurrection_, to restore it to  life, which also recreates the maiden's feather garment.




Come to think of it, how does a Bird Maiden repair her feather garment?

That's something that is never addressed for other "skin wearing" D&D shapeshifters like Selkies, so I guess we don't need to deal with it.


----------



## freyar (Oct 16, 2013)

Presumably like any other magic item, but I agree to avoid the question.

What's next for these?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 17, 2013)

freyar said:


> Presumably like any other magic item, but I agree to avoid the question.




Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> What's next for these?




Well we've got a few question marks at the start and end. Under Creating a Bird Maiden:

"Bird Maiden" is a ??? template that can be added to any female humanoid?  creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) that has the  ability to cast divine spells plus 5 or more ranks in both the Heal and  Knowledge (nature) skills.

_I reckon we should make that_:

"Bird Maiden" is an acquired template that can be added to any female humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) that has the  ability to cast divine spells and 5 or more ranks in both the Heal and  Knowledge (nature) skills.
_
For the bottom bit, I'm thinking_:

*Feats:* Same as base creature. Bird Maidens can select the Natural  Spell feat as if their Bird Shape ability were the druid's Wild Shape  ability.

*Environment:* Warm mountains.
[_The MM original lived in tropical mountains_]
*Organization:* Solitary or family (mother and 1-2 daughters).
[_The MM original says they're solitary wanderers with no sorority, but it also says they raise their daughters as Bird Maidens._]
*Challenge Rating:* Same as the base creature +1.
*Treasure:* Same as base creature.
*Alignment:* Any, but usually good or neutral.
*Advancement:* Same as base creature.
*Level Adjustment:* Same as the base creature +2. [?]


----------



## freyar (Oct 21, 2013)

I will agree with that, though the CR and LA assume we aren't adding any special attacks (that last bit of red text in the middle there).  

Want to do description and background next or the sample?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> I will agree with that, though the CR and LA assume we aren't adding any special attacks (that last bit of red text in the middle there).




Well we aren't giving them any additional special attacks so I was just going to cut the "No Special Attacks?" bit out.

Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Want to do description and background next or the sample?




I don't really care to be frank, so I'd be fine doing whichever of them you fancy.

If you don't have any preferences, shall we do those bits in the order they appear (description first, then background, then sample).


----------



## freyar (Oct 29, 2013)

OK, description.  _A beautiful woman with a shawl of feathers._

You know, I'm pretty hopeless at this sometimes.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 30, 2013)

freyar said:


> OK, description.  _A beautiful woman with a shawl of feathers._
> 
> You know, I'm pretty hopeless at this sometimes.




You know, there's nothing in the _Monstrous Manual_ about them having to be beautiful. Apart from the feather garment, the closest hint about their appearance is they are "idol priestesses" who "live as wandering teachers".

There's a couple of bits of description in the Dragon #218's _Ecology of the Bird Maiden_:

Mufti heard a singing (a woman’s beautiful voice, he thought)...

*SNIP*

Kneeling over him was a woman in a plain tan aba, her nose and mouth covered with the strangest veil he had ever seen. It seemed to be made of light brown feathers tightly woven together. Her eyes were dark and curious just like the girl’s had been, and Mufti suspected that if the veil were removed, the face would be beautiful. Her hands, elegant but strong looking, offered a cup.​
How about:

_A woman in the plain robes of a wandering priestess, with a shawl of feathers draped over her shoulders._


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2013)

Sorry about being AWOL this past week or so; I've had my usual work overflow, a broken furnace (which is pretty serious here in Winnipeg, though fortunately it's not cold yet), and a sick cat to take care of.  It's been a lot to deal with.

In any case, I like that description.  Background should mention that they are a special group of priestesses with an affinity for nature and the ability to transform into birds.  Should we mention something about training at a hidden temple?  We should probably find some way to make sure they don't sound too much like druids.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 16, 2013)

freyar said:


> Sorry about being AWOL this past week or so; I've had my usual work overflow, a broken furnace (which is pretty serious here in Winnipeg, though fortunately it's not cold yet), and a sick cat to take care of.  It's been a lot to deal with.




As far as I'm concerned a poorly cat is a far more important matter than a broken furnace. Hopefully it's nothing too serious ailing your furry overlord.



freyar said:


> In any case, I like that description.  Background should mention that they are a special group of priestesses with an affinity for nature and the ability to transform into birds.  Should we mention something about training at a hidden temple?  We should probably find some way to make sure they don't sound too much like druids.




I'm reluctant to include all the specifics about the hidden temple of the wind and the Aaracokra priests in the general background. How about we have an "Al-Qadim" subentry to include that stuff in?

It'd be enough to say they're a secretive exclusively female order similar to the Swanmays which mostly propogates itself by raising their daughters as Bird Maidens, while any male children are given away to foster parents or exposed (although it should mostly be evil Bird Maidens who do the latter).

Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft* with the description.


----------



## freyar (Nov 19, 2013)

Cleon said:


> As far as I'm concerned a poorly cat is a far more important matter than a broken furnace. Hopefully it's nothing too serious ailing your furry overlord.



I certainly agree with you emotionally speaking, but the furnace is pretty urgent given that it's going to be well below freezing this week (high of -12C Thurs).  Just got an ultrasound for my furry friend this afternoon; doesn't seem like cancer, which is good news at his age!



> I'm reluctant to include all the specifics about the hidden temple of the wind and the Aaracokra priests in the general background. How about we have an "Al-Qadim" subentry to include that stuff in?
> 
> It'd be enough to say they're a secretive exclusively female order similar to the Swanmays which mostly propogates itself by raising their daughters as Bird Maidens, while any male children are given away to foster parents or exposed (although it should mostly be evil Bird Maidens who do the latter).
> 
> Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft* with the description.




I'll go for your suggested background and the underbar.  I'll go try to catch up on a few more threads if you'd like to write some background.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 20, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'll go for your suggested background and the underbar.  I'll go try to catch up on a few more threads if you'd like to write some background.




How's this:

The bird maidens are a secretive sisterhood of shapechangers similar to swanmays. Unlike swanmays, bird maidens can shapechange into many kinds of birds, not just one. The bird form a bird maiden assumes may allude to her personality - a  parrot for an extrovert individual, a vulture for a morbid one, and so on.

All bird maidens are mendicant nature priestesses. They can be of any alignment, but few are evil. Their sisterhood is not an organized cult, and is united only by their shared faith and religious practices. It has no hierarchy, apart from the master-pupil relationship between a bird maiden and whoever taught her the mysteries of how to become one.  

Bird maidens wander the countryside teaching folk about the natural world. A good or neutral bird maiden tries to do this by healing the afflicted and showing people how to live in harmony with their environment, via advice on sustainable farming, animal husbandry, and the like. They do sometimes punish those who despoil nature. The rare evil bird maidens are more vindictive, and enjoy teaching 'lessons' about the cruelty of the wild, by bringing death and ruination  to creatures who are ignorant or abusive toward nature.

Most bird maidens travel alone or in the company of her daughters, who  she will be raising to become bird maidens themselves. Bird maidens  never keep sons. A maiden who bears a male baby usually gives him away  to  foster parents, but some evil maidens abandon their infant boys in the  wilderness.

A bird maiden's shapeshifting powers come from a magical garment made of feathers. This garment is part of the maiden's being, and should it be destroyed, the maiden will die. Bird maidens are sometimes forced to become the slaves - or even wives - of someone who steals their feather garment and threatens to destroy it (and her). Should the maiden manage to regain the stolen garment from her 'lord' or 'husband', she will immediately fly away, but often returns to kill or pauperize her persecutor.

*Bird Maidens In Al-Qadim*
In the Land of Fate, it is said that bird maidens are taught their powers and rites by Aarakocra priests in a secret temple known as The Crown of All Feathers. According to rumor, this is a great wooden fortress hidden somewhere in the highest hills.


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2013)

Looks good to me!  I'd just alter one sentence for parallel structure:

Should the maiden manage to regain the stolen garment from her 'lord' or 'husband', she immediately flies away but often returns to kill or pauperize her persecutor.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2013)

freyar said:


> Looks good to me!  I'd just alter one sentence for parallel structure:
> 
> Should the maiden manage to regain the stolen garment from her 'lord' or 'husband', she immediately flies away but often returns to kill or pauperize her persecutor.




I don't care for that. Would you accept:

The maiden immediately flies away should she manage to regain the stolen garment from her 'lord' or 'husband', but often returns to kill or pauperize her persecutor.


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## freyar (Dec 29, 2013)

Make it "but *she* often returns...," and I'll be happy 

Should we go for the straightforward human druid or something a little more creative?


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## Cleon (Dec 30, 2013)

freyar said:


> Make it "but *she* often returns...," and I'll be happy




That change is agreeable.



freyar said:


> Should we go for the straightforward human druid or something a little more creative?




I'd rather not dilute her "shapechanging into bird" schtick with the generic animal shapechanging she'd get from a druid's wild shape ability.

Plain cleric would be fine by me, but if you fancy something different you could use a Paladin, Ranger or Adept. Paladins don't have Knowledge (nature) as a class skill, though, so Adept or Ranger makes more sense.

If you fancy something high level, I'd entertain adding a few levels of a Prestige Class - maybe Horizon Walker or Shadow Dancer?


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## Cleon (Dec 30, 2013)

Cleon said:


> Plain cleric would be fine by me, but if you fancy something different you could use a Paladin, Ranger or Adept. Paladins don't have Knowledge (nature) as a class skill, though, so Adept or Ranger makes more sense.




Upon reflection, I prefer a regular cleric with the Animal or Plant Domain so they can easily achieve the Knowledge (nature) prerequisite.

Maybe 6th level, so they're a decent fighter in their largest Bird Shape?

Oh, and I'd better get around to updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft* with the background info.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2014)

6th level cleric with Animal and maybe Weather domains?


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2014)

freyar said:


> 6th level cleric with Animal and maybe Weather domains?




Hmm, some of the flavour text suggests they help people grow crops, which suggests the Plant domain - which also happens to have a more useful granted power than Animal.

While the Weather domain's Survival skill might be useful, a cleric doesn't really need it - they can always use _create food and water_ or _endure elements_ to get food & comfort - and the bonus spells aren't much cop.

Animal, Community, Liberation, Protection or Water would seem better options for the other Domain.


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2014)

Funny, at some point I was thinking Animal and Plant domains but decided it sounded to trite.  Let's go with those two.  Considering they are *bird* maidens, Animal just sounds right.  We can list those others as possible or likely choices, though.


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## Cleon (Jan 27, 2014)

freyar said:


> Funny, at some point I was thinking Animal and Plant domains but decided it sounded to trite.  Let's go with those two.  Considering they are *bird* maidens, Animal just sounds right.  We can list those others as possible or likely choices, though.




So we're going for a 6th level Cleric with Animal and Plant then.

Human?

She'll have the elite stat array of course. Not sure where to put the weak 8 and 10 stats. None of them seem quite right. Clerics tend to use Int, Dex or Cha as their dump stats. Dex doesn't seem right for a bird, but neither of the other two seem very appropriate for the flavour text either.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2014)

Human makes sense, though half-elf might be a nice change.

Dump the 8 into Cha, as we've noted they're not necessarily beautiful and none of the abilities depend on it.  The ability bonus will help with that, anyway.  As for the 10, I think either Int or Dex would work.  Dex because they get a large racial bonus due to the template, and Int because they can make up for it with ranks in Know (nature).  So take your pick.


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## Cleon (Feb 12, 2014)

freyar said:


> Human makes sense, though half-elf might be a nice change.
> 
> Dump the 8 into Cha, as we've noted they're not necessarily beautiful and none of the abilities depend on it.  The ability bonus will help with that, anyway.  As for the 10, I think either Int or Dex would work.  Dex because they get a large racial bonus due to the template, and Int because they can make up for it with ranks in Know (nature).  So take your pick.




I'd prefer she have a Dex bonus since Bird Maidens would have difficulty wearing armor.

I'd be OK with either Int or Str for the 10 and am leaning towards Str - they're renowned for their wisdom and knowledge, but there's no mention of them being muscular.

How about Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 8 with the 4HD ability advancement increasing Wisdom to 16?


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## freyar (Feb 15, 2014)

Cleon said:


> I'd prefer she have a Dex bonus since Bird Maidens would have difficulty wearing armor.
> 
> I'd be OK with either Int or Str for the 10 and am leaning towards Str - they're renowned for their wisdom and knowledge, but there's no mention of them being muscular.
> 
> How about Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 8 with the 4HD ability advancement increasing Wisdom to 16?




I'm good with that.

How about a finessable weapon like a rapier and something like a sling ranged?  The sling may not be optimal, but it strikes me as flavorful.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2014)

freyar said:


> I'm good with that.
> 
> How about a finessable weapon like a rapier and something like a sling ranged?  The sling may not be optimal, but it strikes me as flavorful.




She's a cleric, so would have to take Martial Weapon Proficiency to do that, which doesn't seem a very efficient use of a feat.

I'd think a plain dagger or spear would be more sensible.

A sling's fine, though.

Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2014)

Weapon Finesse works with a dagger, so let's go with that.

Do we need to list all the bird forms she gets again?

Work on the spells next?  At 0th level, I guess I'd go _detect magic, purify food and drink (x2), read magic, resistance_.  That just seems to fit thematically.


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## Cleon (Mar 5, 2014)

freyar said:


> Weapon Finesse works with a dagger, so let's go with that.




Agreed.



freyar said:


> Do we need to list all the bird forms she gets again?




I was going to, complete with mini stat-blocks, since it'll make the sample creature more useful.



freyar said:


> Work on the spells next?  At 0th level, I guess I'd go _detect magic, purify food and drink (x2), read magic, resistance_.  That just seems to fit thematically.




How about a _detect poison_ or _mending_ instead of one of those _purify food and drink_?


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2014)

I was thinking about _detect poison_, but I might put it in instead of _resistance_ rather than dropping a _purify food and drink_.  They might want those spells to help people out, you know.  But I'll let you choose.  

First level spells: _Detect Undead_, _Divine Favor_, _Entangle_(D), _Magic Weapon_, _Sanctuary_  ??


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## Cleon (Mar 23, 2014)

freyar said:


> I was thinking about _detect poison_, but I might put it in instead of _resistance_ rather than dropping a _purify food and drink_.  They might want those spells to help people out, you know.  But I'll let you choose.




How likely is it they'll need *two* purify food and drink spells to help some people they met? For that matter, how likely is it they'll need that spell so urgently they don't have the time to wait for their spells to refresh and prepare them.

A _detect poison_ spell would also be helpful in the "helping people" stake and increases the versatility of her spell selection.

_detect magic, detect poison, purify food and drink, read magic, resistance._

If you still want to swap out the _resistance_ I'd be OK swapping it for _mending_, although they both can be used as "helping-others.



freyar said:


> First level spells: _Detect Undead_, _Divine Favor_, _Entangle_(D), _Magic Weapon_, _Sanctuary_  ??




Overall it's a good selection, but it seems a bit short on the "helping others" front. Many regular adventurer-clerics probably go into a dungeon with those 1st level spells ready.

How about _deathwatch_? That's really useful for a healer cleric to perform triage on those they are treating.

We could swap it for, say, _detect undead_ or _magic weapon_.

The Bird Maiden in the _Dragon_ magazine Ecology of article used _entangle_, so that seems appropriate for the Domain spell.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2014)

OK, then:

0--_detect magic, detect poison, purify food and drink, read magic, resistance_
1--_deathwatch, detect undead, divine favor, entangle(D), sanctuary_

For second level, maybe _aid, barkskin(D), delay poison, lesser restoration, make whole_?


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## Cleon (Mar 30, 2014)

freyar said:


> OK, then:
> 
> 0--_detect magic, detect poison, purify food and drink, read magic, resistance_
> 1--_deathwatch, detect undead, divine favor, entangle(D), sanctuary_
> ...




I like all of those except _make whole_, which I'd rather substitute for something a bit more combat-oriented.

Maybe _spiritual weapon_, _enthrall_, or _summon monster II_?


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2014)

_Enthrall_ seems the most appealing to me of those options.

3rd level suggestions: _Dispel Magic_, _Dominate Animal_ (D), _Remove Curse_, _Searing Light_

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, just can't believe how busy I've been.  This seems like a theme with my work...


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## Cleon (Apr 18, 2014)

freyar said:


> _Enthrall_ seems the most appealing to me of those options.
> 
> 3rd level suggestions: _Dispel Magic_, _Dominate Animal_ (D), _Remove Curse_, _Searing Light_
> 
> Sorry I haven't posted in a while, just can't believe how busy I've been.  This seems like a theme with my work...




Those are fine by me. He'll have 2+1 third-spells for being a 6th level cleric so we'll need to cut one of them. Tactically dropping the _remove curse_ would make most sense (since most curses are slow enough she could prepare the spell if she needs it). That suggests:

0—_detect magic, detect poison, purify food and drink, read magic, resistance_
1—_deathwatch, detect undead, divine favor, entangle_ (D)_, sanctuary_
2—_aid, barkskin _(D)_, delay poison, enthrall, lesser restoration_ 
3—_dispel magic_, _dominate animal_ (D), _searing light_

Is that OK by you?


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## freyar (May 3, 2014)

I think you're forgetting the bonus spell due to high Wis.  But if you don't like remove curse, what about summon monster III?


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## Cleon (May 4, 2014)

freyar said:


> I think you're forgetting the bonus spell due to  high Wis.




Dang it, I did.



freyar said:


> But if you don't like remove curse, what about summon monster  III?




I like it better than _remove curse_.

Although I'd also be tempted by a utility spell such as _create food and water_, _prayer_ or _protection from energy_.

Hmm, _prayer_ is tempting, and fits the "helping others" ethos they seem to follow.

So which do you prefer, _prayer_ or _summon monster III_.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2014)

_Prayer_ is a good choice!  I wish I'd thought of that.

Didn't we agree on a dagger and sling as weapons?  

And shouldn't her AC be higher, even if we don't add armor?  As for armor, maybe some basic leather?


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2014)

freyar said:


> _Prayer_ is a good choice!  I wish I'd thought of that.
> 
> Didn't we agree on a dagger and sling as weapons?
> 
> And shouldn't her AC be higher, even if we don't add armor?  As for armor, maybe some basic leather?




I'd go for a spear and sling, since the original description has "They carry spears, darts, and slings, but may not wear armor or shields (even magical) heavier than hide".

Leather armour's fine by me, or we could upgrade to studded or hide.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2014)

Spear and sling it is.  Hide armor will be ok, as she'd still be able to take advantage of her full Dex bonus.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2014)

freyar said:


> Spear and sling it is.  Hide armor will be ok, as she'd still be able to take advantage of her full Dex bonus.




Agreed.

I'm about to call it a day, so will likely update the *Bird Maiden Working Draft* tomorrow.


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2014)

Cleon said:


> I'm about to call it a day, so will likely update the *Bird Maiden Working Draft* tomorrow.




Just added the weapons, armour and spells to the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.

Sorry for the delay, I was watching Godzilla movies Friday night and completely forgot I meant to update the entry.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2014)

No problem, I'm not exactly the Flash over here.

Skills: Heal, Profession (farming), and cross-class ranks in Survival or Handle Animal seem like thematic choices.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2014)

freyar said:


> No problem, I'm not exactly the Flash over here.
> 
> Skills: Heal, Profession (farming), and cross-class ranks in Survival or Handle Animal seem like thematic choices.




I'd throw in some ranks in Knowledge (nature) too, since her domains give her that as a class skill. She ought to have a bit of Knowledge (religion) too from all those years in the Temple of Winds.

Hold on. She's human, so should have 36 SPs instead of 27.

So, Knowledge (nature) at 5 ranks for the synergy bonus.
Max out Heal at 9 ranks?
Might as well put 5 ranks in Profession (farmer) and Knowledge (religion).
That's 24 ranks, which leaves 12, or enough for Handle Animal 3, Survival 3 as cross-class skills.

Hmm... I'm tempted to drop the Survival and give her Diplomacy 6 instead. Her Wisdom bonus and skill synergy are already enough to give her Survival +7 in aboveground environments.

Heck, let's give her 1 rank in Survival and cut the Profession (farmer) to 4 and make the Diplomacy 5 ranks, just enough for synergy.

Putting that together is:

Diplomacy 5 SPs, Handle Animal 6 SPs [3 ranks], Heal 9 SPs, Knowledge (nature) 5 SPs, Knowledge (religion) 5 SPs, Profession (farmer) 4 SPs, Survival 2 SPs [1 rank]

Which works out...

*Skills:* Diplomacy +5, Handle Animal +3, Heal +14, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (religion) +6, Profession (farmer) +9, Survival +6 (+8 aboveground)


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2014)

I'll agree to that.

For feats, how about Natural Spell, Self-Sufficient, Track, and Weapon Finesse?


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2014)

freyar said:


> I'll agree to that.




Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> For feats, how about Natural Spell, Self-Sufficient, Track, and Weapon Finesse?




I like Natural Spell and Weapon Finesse, but the other two seem a bit questionable as far as their "bangs for the buck" goes.

Hey, how about Flyby Attack? She meets the prerequisites!

As for the second one, Self-Sufficiency will do I guess. I don't like Track so much because birds tend to fly high and spot creatures rather than sniffing along following their footprints.

That'd make it:

*Skills:* Diplomacy +5, Handle Animal +3, Heal +16, Knowledge  (nature) +6,  Knowledge (religion) +6, Profession (farmer) +9, Survival  +8 (+10  aboveground)
*Feats:* Flyby Attack, Natural Spell, Self-Sufficiency, Weapon Finesse (B)


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2014)

Spelling: it's just "Self-Sufficient."  And my choice of that feat was mostly for flavor purposes.

Ah, I was forgetting about Flyby Attack.  I like that list of feats you have there pretty well.

So, once the bird forms are listed, does she need anything else?  Isn't description covered by the template's description line?


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2014)

freyar said:


> Spelling: it's just "Self-Sufficient."  And my choice of that feat was mostly for flavor purposes.
> 
> Ah, I was forgetting about Flyby Attack.  I like that list of feats you have there pretty well.




Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> So, once the bird forms are listed, does she need anything else?  Isn't description covered by the template's description line?




Okay, I'll whip up some stats and we can decide the names of the bird forms later.

2 _*Bird*_—Tiny Humanoid (Shapechanger); Initiative: +5; Speed: 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average); AC 17 (+2 size, +5 Dex), touch 17, flat-footed 12; BAB/Grapple: +4/–6; Attacks: Bite +11 melee (1d3–2); Abilities: Str 6, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10, Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +10.

3 _*Bird*_—Tiny Humanoid (Shapechanger);  Initiative: +5; Speed: 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (good); AC 18 (+2 size, +5  Dex, +1 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 13; BAB/Grapple: +4/–5; Attacks: Bite +11  melee (1d4–1); Abilities: Str 8, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10,  Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +10. 

4 _*Bird*_—Tiny Humanoid (Shapechanger);  Initiative: +5; Speed: 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (good); AC 18 (+2 size, +5  Dex, +1 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 13; BAB/Grapple: +4/–4; Attacks: Claws +11 melee (1d4) and bite +6  melee (1d3); Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10,  Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +10.

5 _*Bird*_—Small Humanoid (Shapechanger);  Initiative: +5; Speed: 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (average); AC 18 (+1 size, +5  Dex, +2 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 13; BAB/Grapple: +4/+1; Attacks: Bite +10  melee (1d6+1) and 2 claws +5 melee (1d2); Abilities: Str 12, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10,  Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +10.

6 _*Bird*_—Small Humanoid (Shapechanger);  Initiative: +5; Speed: 10 ft., fly 80 ft. (average); AC 18 (+1 size, +5  Dex, +2 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 13; BAB/Grapple: +4/+2; Attacks: 2 claws +10  melee (1d3+2) and bite +5 melee (1d4+1); Abilities: Str 14, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10,  Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +10.

While writing up the above I realized we didn't say what the land  speed of any of the bird forms is. Most SRD birds have a ground speed of  10 ft., so I'll put that in for the time being. We'll need to add a  note to that effect to the Working Draft.

e.g.:

The bird form has the abilities given in the Bird Shape Table presented   below  instead of the abilities normally granted by Alternate Form.  They  do not gain any special abilities or racial bonuses of the actual  bird,  such as a Giant Owl's superior low light vision and +8 racial  bonus to  Listen, or a buzzard's scent ability, with one exception: If  the bird  has a swim speed, the bird form gains a swim speed equal to  the actual  bird or half the bird form's fly speed, whichever is less. All bird forms have a land speed of 10 feet.


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2014)

The table and note about speeds are fine.

Shouldn't the bird form names just come from the template for our sample?


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## Cleon (Jul 19, 2014)

freyar said:


> The table and note about speeds are fine.




Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Shouldn't the bird form names just come from the template for our sample?




Those are only _examples_, so I wanted to emphasize that by including at least one creature that isn't on the list.

I'd also like to list a bird with a Swim speed, but the only one I could find is the Boobrie, which is too big (the regular Boobrie is Large, the Black Boobrie is Medium).

We don't have D&D stats for ducks do we? The closest I could find is the *Duckbunny*. Actually, that tells us all we need to know - a duck's Tiny sized and has a 30 ft. swim speed, so we could make the 3rd level Bird a duck.

So how about:

2 - Sparrow
3 - Duck (add Swim speed)
4 - Kite
5 - Stork
6 - Eagle


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2014)

That'll be fine. 

Is that it?


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## Cleon (Aug 3, 2014)

freyar said:


> That'll be fine.
> 
> Is that it?




I suspect so, although I'll likely give it a final check for any obvious stat errors before signing off on it.

Anyhow, it's getting late over here, so I'll update the entry tomorrow.


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## Cleon (Aug 3, 2014)

Cleon said:


> I suspect so, although I'll likely give it a final check for any obvious stat errors before signing off on it.
> 
> Anyhow, it's getting late over here, so I'll update the entry tomorrow.




And it's tomorrow!

Updating the *Bird Maiden Working Draft*.

Checking through it, I can see a few tweaks.

Firstly, we've got a fair few incidents of "it" that I'm changing to feminine pronouns for the sake of consistency, as follows:
*Size and Type:* The bird maiden's type remains unchanged but it she gains the Shapechanger subtype. A bird maiden has the same size as the  base creature when in humanoid form, but it she may be  smaller or larger when in bird form (see Bird Shape).

*Attack:* Same as base creature in humanoid form. In bird form, a  bird maiden loses its the base creature's attacks and gains claw and bite  attacks (see Bird Shape).

*Special Attacks:* *** When in bird form, a bird maiden  loses any extraordinary special attacks of its her original form not derived  from class levels, but retains the spell-like abilities and  supernatural attacks of its the base creature form (except for breath  weapons and gaze attacks).
_
Feathered Garment_ ***  It takes a different magical effect, such  as _limited wish_, _wish_, _miracle_, or _true resurrection_, to restore it her to  life, which also recreates the maiden's feather garment.

*Abilties:* A bird maiden will have further modifiers to its her ability scores when in bird form (see Bird Shape).​
Secondly, the Skills section is poorly worded. I intended the skill bonuses to only apply when the Maiden is in bird form, but the wording suggests it's continuous.

Therefore I changed this:

*Skills:* A bird maiden with the bird form of a nocturnal  (night-dwelling) bird has a +4 racial bonus to Listen checks. One with a  diurnal (day-dwelling) bird form has a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks  and a +4 racial bonus on Search checks.

to this:

*Skills:* A bird maiden in the bird form of a diurnal (day-dwelling) bird gains a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks  and a +4 racial bonus on Search checks. One in a nocturnal (night-dwelling) bird form gains a +4 racial bonus to Listen checks.

EDIT: I also added a Skills line to the sample creature's bird forms with the skill changes listed.


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2014)

That all sounds fine.  All done?


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2014)

freyar said:


> That all sounds fine.  All done?




Yes, I think it's done.

What'd you like to do next?


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2014)

As with other threads, let's only start something up if there's something already in the queue for one of our batches that fits here.  It's been good to focus on the gammaroid and finish that quickly, and I think we can manage that more regularly if we have fewer threads running.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2014)

freyar said:


> As with other threads, let's only start something up if there's something already in the queue for one of our batches that fits here.  It's been good to focus on the gammaroid and finish that quickly, and I think we can manage that more regularly if we have fewer threads running.




OK, I don't mind trying to get a batch or two finished before we're ancient.

Besides, we don't have much left in the way of Al-Qadim creatures.


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