# Mac Vs. Pc Commercials



## TogaMario (Oct 11, 2006)

The commercials are getting ridiculous. I don't hate Macs, but I'm certainly not inclined to purchase one over a PC. "My Mac produces a Bimbo, while your PC produces a man in a dress." Like a Mac is going to make the person shooting the film a better cinematographer, editor, or make their job a whole lot easier either way. It's time someone brought the truth forward.






















Yes, I own a Mac. I've worked with them for over three years. No, I'm not impressed. Paid double for it than my newest PC of 6 months. The PC has never crashed any programs (except for when I made a bad programming error a while back) The Mac, however, is going on it's 50th+ crash, it's nearly brand new, and the instability lies mostly in ... get this ... graphic-oriented programs like Photoshop and Illustrator. It can't handle simple (100kb) files and simple taks like unoutlined text movement without crashing completely (and randomly, without saves in this process) and presenting a very canned error.

Naturally, this can't be everyone's experience with a Mac, after all, I'm sure it works well enough for little projects that make the individuals happy. Unless all I wanted to be able to do is surf the net, e-mail, and make some home movies, I'd build my own PC, and recommend anyone else do the same (or have someone you know and trust do it for you.) I just don't think it's better for anything, and by the time you get done paying for a Mac that can do basic film editing without slow down, you could've bought a PC with an excellent pci-express graphics card (or two), 2 gigs of ram, a 200 GB harddrive and a license for Adobe Premiere.


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## Marchen (Oct 11, 2006)

They call it advertising. Macs appeal to a younger college-aged audience who loves them for iPod compatibility and their hipster image. I don't use a Mac simply because I really don't see any great need. I will say that they do look nice; their style is very clean and modern. 

But no Mac for me, but a new iPod is tempting.


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## MonkeyDragon (Oct 11, 2006)

I'm biased towards PCs, partially because they're easy and my brother builds them.  Since I don't know much about computers other than how to operate my own (when it's functional), I trust his opinion on things, and this is what he said once about Macs.

Macs are very good at what they're good at, which is generally the art and video stuff.  However, their compatability with things can be a pain, and they aren't as good as PCs for the things that they aren't specifically good at.  Also, a PC built for the purpose of the artsy stuff is going to be just about as good at it.

My friend used a Mac at art school and really liked it.  In general, I'll stick with the PC.


That being said, I really like those commercials.  I think they're funny, and I like the Mac guy.  (He was fabulous in Waiting and in Accepted.)


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## Aaron L (Oct 11, 2006)

I like PCs.  I build my own, I know how they wok, and I can modify them at my leisure.  From what I knwo of Macs upgrading isnt an option.  I still have a few components from my very first computer of 8 years ago in my current one (just the floppy drive and sound card, but its the principle of the thing )


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## babomb (Oct 11, 2006)

Marchen said:
			
		

> Macs appeal to a younger college-aged audience who loves them for iPod compatibility and their hipster image.




I am a college student, and the commercial actually makes me less inclined to get a Mac. I identify more with the PC John Hodgman than that kid who plays the Mac, although I dislike hipsterism and am a couple of standard deviations more computer savvy than my average peer. The PC is geeky and funny where the Mac is kind of snooty, carrying around reviews of himself and whatnot. That Japanese camera will work just as well with a PC.

Also, now that Macs use the same x86 architecture as PCs, one could buy a PC and install OS X on it if so inclined (or for that matter, any other BSD or Linux distro), and it's more fun and cheaper to build the computer myself.


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## TogaMario (Oct 11, 2006)

Indeed, it's great to know that the Mac commercials aren't fooling anyone, and although the iPod is a spectacular little product, the Macintosh itself isn't at all a wonderful thing. There advertising just seems to get more rediculous every time I change the channel.

Edit: And maybe what annoys me most is that the hipster advertising is horribly obvious, and ... well ... I'm hip! (I'm with it ... tuka tuka tuka tuka ... AAAH) and I wouldn't touch the thing if I didn't require it for a small bit of my work (and ONLY because of font file compatibility issues).


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Oct 12, 2006)

I soured on Macs in the early days, when forced to take a programming class exclusively on Macs.  When you have a computer where you eject your disk by dragging the disk icon to a trash can -- the same process by which you delete files -- because they forgot to install a BLOODY DISK EJECT BUTTON, you know you have problems.

While my mother & brother-in-law love their Macs, nothing at this point would persuade me to use one, even though I own and love an iPod.


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## reanjr (Oct 12, 2006)

Well, the Mac trashcan was actually used more as a place to place things you were done with.  The concept of deleting something wasn't intended for the common user to understand.  That's why trash contents were recoverable.  Microsoft did much better with this paradigm by making it a recycling bin rather than a trash can.

I'm not saying it was great interface design, but placed within context, I can understand why they did it that way.


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## reanjr (Oct 12, 2006)

babomb said:
			
		

> That Japanese camera will work just as well with a PC.




If there is anywhere the Mac bitchslaps PC, it is on interoperability out of the box.  To PC users who have muddled through wireless technology over the last few years or so, Apple's AirPort is so technologically advanced it would appear to be magic.

Plug and play means different things to PC and Mac communities.

In the PC community, it means the computer will recognize the device in a generic sense, spend a bit of time installing generic drivers and then allow you to use the device.  You may be missing some advanced features that require the manufacturer drivers, but for the most part the device works as it should.

In the Mac community, it means the device gets plugged in and works with full functionality.

That's a significant difference to common users.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 12, 2006)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I soured on Macs in the early days, when forced to take a programming class exclusively on Macs.  When you have a computer where you eject your disk by dragging the disk icon to a trash can -- the same process by which you delete files -- because they forgot to install a BLOODY DISK EJECT BUTTON, you know you have problems.




We had PowerMacs in high school.  Now, they didn't have a disk eject button... but they _did_ have a button right next to the floppy drive!

On a couple of occasions, I was working on a document, and thought "Need to change disks before I save this."

... and switched off the computer.

-Hyp.


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## Simplicity (Oct 12, 2006)

Mac: Hi, I'm a Mac.
PC: And I'm a PC.  Anyways, let's get right down to it.  You, Mac, are an a-hole.
Mac: Whaaaaa?
PC: An expensive, featureless, one-button-mouse a-hole.  How is that one-button thing working out for you, anyways?
Mac: Oh, it's so much simpl--
PC: SHUTUP!  SHUTUP!  SHUT YOUR DAMN MOUTH!  It's not simpler to hit the apple button or ctrl button or for god's sakes the apple plus control button plus the mouse button to get what you want done.  I thought you were some sort of UI whiz or something...  Did you cut class on mouse design day or something?  
Mac: But the Mac operating system--
PC: Is crap!  And if it weren't crap, it'd be supported by companies.  Which it isn't.  So, suck it, Mac.


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## TogaMario (Oct 13, 2006)

Lol, Airport is a breeze, eh? I spent over three hours trying to find out why Airport wouldn't recognize my new Linsys wireless router (which it is sitting right beside). I finally broke out with a cat-5 cable and just wired the stupid thing. My PC, on the other hand, picked it up and ran with it immediately.


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## Simplicity (Oct 13, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> Lol, Airport is a breeze, eh? I spent over three hours trying to find out why Airport wouldn't recognize my new Linsys wireless router (which it is sitting right beside). I finally broke out with a cat-5 cable and just wired the stupid thing. My PC, on the other hand, picked it up and ran with it immediately.




Yeah, I also wonder whether Airport is so breezy, when my wife's computer keeps deleting her WEP key from under her for no reason she can discern.


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## Marchen (Oct 13, 2006)

Will the Mac help me pick up girls...

"Hey ladies, howya like my new Macbook? Wanna touch the firewire?"


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## TogaMario (Oct 13, 2006)

I saw a site with "Made with a Mac" at the bottom today. Apparently it could help you get chics! It takes all the creativity and brainwork out of making webpages (i.e. your freewill) to give you a website that can't possibly be called bad. Now you can tell all the ladies that you're a "web designer". That'll bring em' running, lol.

Also, adding onto the ludicrisity (yes, now I'm making up words to rival the asininity ) the recent commercial targets Microsoft Office. Everyone should know that the alternative, OpenOffice, is free [and compatible with MO docs, right down to PowerPoint] and no matter how you come to obtain Microsoft Office, it costs more than I care to pay for "productivity software", regardless if you get it on your Mac, or PC.


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## Henry (Oct 13, 2006)

In other news: Glad to see you surfing around, T.  All that diligence and productivity is too dangerous. 

Also, my condolences on the Mac.


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## kenobi65 (Oct 13, 2006)

I thought religion threads were _verboten_ here?


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## dragonhead (Oct 13, 2006)

Dosent Ipods come with a program to run on a pc?


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## Aurora (Oct 13, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> Mac: Hi, I'm a Mac.
> PC: And I'm a PC.  Anyways, let's get right down to it.  You, Mac, are an a-hole.
> Mac: Whaaaaa?
> PC: An expensive, featureless, one-button-mouse a-hole.  How is that one-button thing working out for you, anyways?
> ...



I was on the phone when I read this and I laughed so hard I think I scared the person on the other line.   

Wow, so everyone thinks Macs are crap, huh? I was thinking about buying one because I am a design major. I was told that programs like photoshop CS2 and auto-cad work better on a Mac. SO, it's a lie? Well, I am glad I haven't spent the money on a Mac G5 yet. Are Macs not better for video editing either?


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## Simplicity (Oct 13, 2006)

To be fair, a lot of people like their Macs.  For work environments using Photoshop, CAD, Video editing regularly...  You're not going to go wrong using a Mac.  That's the Mac specialty area.  

For gamers, ownership of a Mac means that you get to wait an extra year to play games.  Assuming someone decides to port the game.  Assuming they support the port, after it dies the first time and requires patches.  Oh look.  Everyone has already finished your game and moved on to bigger and better things.

Mac: I'm a Mac.
PC: And I'm a PC.
Mac: Hey, PC, I just started playing this great game.  Civilization IV.  You get to--
PC: Yeah, I just got the expansion pack for that game.  Two months ago.  Oh yeah, and I'm already done playing it.  You think they'll port that expansion pack for you Mac users?  
Mac: I sure hope so!


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## Simplicity (Oct 13, 2006)

dragonhead said:
			
		

> Dosent Ipods come with a program to run on a pc?




iPods work with Macs and PCs.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 13, 2006)

Aurora said:
			
		

> auto-cad work better on a Mac. SO, it's a lie? Well, I am glad I haven't spent the money on a Mac G5 yet. Are Macs not better for video editing either?




AutoCAD on a MAC.

You are in Hell.

Or at least a reasonable facsimile.

Unless OS 10 is 99% Better than Previous Attempts, your chance of going Postal rises 72%.

While Photoshop might work Better (I still hate that Program, none of the Right Clicks work like they should; indicating a MAC preference); AutoCAD should NOT be loaded on a Mac unless you are a Masochist.

You might get it to work right, but you might not.

The only advantage a Mac has over a PC is the Control Apple has.  I would NEVER buy a PC off the shelf (I recently bought a HP Laptop; reformatting the Harddrive first thing killed dozens of Pre-loaded Spam and Spyware 'Special Offers'.

The problem with a PC is the amount of effort you need to go to buy a really great system cheap.  One maker has the best Graphic Cards, Another Harddrives, Another MotherBoards, Soundcards etc.  And if you just get 1 bad piece, the whole thing might not work right.

Also, most makers; Dell, Gateway, etc stuff some much advertising, special offers, and little nasty annoying 'Helper Programs' that just sit in the background and do nothing but consume resources that they'll never run like they should.

A Mac is a good machine.  Better than 95% of the Off the Shelf PC's you could buy at a store.  But that is maore a statement of the Largest PC makers than the PC itself.

You can build a Vastly Superior PC for 50% the cost if you do a little research and are willing to hunt around.


Edit: Although I am going to Offically request a Voodoo doll of Bill Gates right this minute, and every time I get a "Updates installed, do you want to reboot now?" That will NOT GO AWAY!

BAM!!!  Hammer to the Groin.

Does anyone know how to turn that annoying piece of CRAP OFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!

I'm tired of screaming "I WILL SHUT YOU OFF BEFORE I GO TO BED, NOW SHUT THE BLEEP UP RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Edit 2:  Went Here and it told me how to stop it.

My taking levels in Barbarian for Rage is done...

For now.


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## tonym (Oct 14, 2006)

I bought a Mac a few years ago, because I was sick of my IMB Amiga PC.  I hated it, and it hated me.  I would buy software and frequently the software wouldn't run.  I couldn't figure out how to make the computer do things I wanted it to do.  And it crashed often.

Compared with that horrible PC, my new Mac was like a computer from a different galaxy.  It worked so well!

The operating system, OS10, is a thing of beauty, and is so well-designed.  I really like how I don't need a manual to make it work.  Nearly everything I want it to do is a piece of cake.  (I _read_ only when I want to do oddball stuff, like changing the icons from their default images to little pictures I drew myself.)

The security from virii and spyware is also nice.

Not long ago I bought a cheap Dell for my young daughter and it has been a pain (though not nearly as bad as the Amiga).  I can't get about a third of the software I buy for it to run, it freezes-up a lot, and other annoying junk.

Plus, to me, Windows XP is unpleasant to look at.  For example, when I do a search for a file using Windows XP, some ugly cartoon dog with a flashlight shows-up!  Gag!  I'm not in pre-school, Mister Gates.

Two last comments.  Nowadays the Macs have an eject button on the keyboard to open the drive bay, not a button on the computer.  And OS 10 is nothing like OS 9.  OS 9 is awful, IMO.  If anybody reading this is basing their Mac-opinions on OS 9, go to Apple.com and look screengrabs of OS10 and read about it.  OS10 is awesome.

Tony M


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## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 14, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> Not long ago I bought a cheap Dell for my young daughter and it has been a pain (though not nearly as bad as the Amiga).  I can't get about a third of the software I buy for it to run, it freezes-up a lot, and other annoying junk.
> 
> Tony M




Cheap.

Dell.

Perhaps...

Used.

Yugo.

Would be an even greater example of a worthless hunk of junk.

A low-end is about as effective as a piece of paper and a pencil; if you lack a pencil sharpener.

I did IT with a friend for a while.

We made a lot of money from Dell.  There Hardware always has at least one piece that's so cheap it will break 4-5 times UNDER warranty and then Once out of Warranty (When we'd replace it with a part that actually works).

Also, we'd wipe the system clean.  Reformat the Harddrive and put it back on from scratch (using Advanced/Custom Options to keep all the Crap off).

My wife's work just got 9 new Dells 4 months ago.  5 of them have had the harddrive crash.  Of those 5; 3 have gone through 2 Drives.

Simple fact is:  If you want a Great System for a decent price, you have to find a custom builder.

A GOOD custom builder.

That's the trick.  A crappy custom builder can leave you holding the bag.

I don't like Mac's because I don't understand them.  (And I want to customize more than just the Color of my Computer).

All my trainings been on PC's.

The Mac's a good machine.

I can just get a far better PC for the Money.

My mom (who has Computer Use -20) might do better with a Mac.

Oh, wait....

The reason she wants a computer s so she can be better with the computers at her work, an Insurance Company.

So, she'll need a PC.


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## tonym (Oct 14, 2006)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> Simple fact is: If you want a Great System for a decent price, you have to find a custom builder.
> 
> A GOOD custom builder.




I went into a custom-builder store once, years ago.  I mostly didn't know what the salesguy was talking about.  I didn't know enough about RAM and memory and processor speeds to understand him.  He even used words like "serial bus" and "cache," which made no sense at all.  

I'm more knowledgable nowadays.  But at the time, I felt like ordering a custom-built computer was too complicated, so I left and bought my accursed Aptiva at Best Buy.

In hindsight, I should've paid the salesguy to build me a computer that didn't suck.

Not that I learned a lesson, mind you.  That Dell Dimension I bought for my daughter was sooo cheap I couldn't resist!!  


Tony M


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## dorentir (Oct 14, 2006)

what do you expect?  It is a commercial.  Its intended to make you want things you don't need.  Every time I drive on the road I see hundreds of a-holes driving those oversize pickup trucks and SUVs and its clear they never haul lumber, bricks and cement or need 4wd to drive through ditches.  They use this oversize vehicle to transport themselves, a briefcase and a blackberry to an office and back every day.  Their bank accounts and the environment would be much better served by a modest sedan but these people feel the need to "make a statement" by driving a hummer to work.
I mean, did you really think these ads were intended to be informative mini documentaries on computers or public service announcements?  It's a shill.


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## ssampier (Oct 15, 2006)

I have nothing against the Mac, really. I just don't own one right now and probably won't for the near future.



			
				dragonhead said:
			
		

> Dosent Ipods come with a program to run on a pc?




Do you like iTunes? It's *great* if you do. If you don't, well you have to like iTunes; it doesn't work otherwise.*

I'd honestly download iTunes to see if you like it.

*strictly speaking you can download hacks to make it work otherwise, but I don't recommend it.


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## Piratecat (Oct 15, 2006)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> We had PowerMacs in high school.



We had Apple 2s and Apple 2+s in high school - and DEC Rainbows (yay, CP/M!) in college.  Whippersnapper.


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## Mr. Beef (Oct 15, 2006)

I went through a phase a couple of years ago where I wanted to do the whole Mac thing, and then I took a Photoshop class at the local community college. I honestly tried using the Mac Lab they had for the class and I wanted to stick my head in a fusion reactor. A good chunk of the class dropped the class all together within 3 weeks because the Macs were so tough to use. We had the option of dropping the class, or transferring to an online class. I just dropped it and got a refund. 

I know that Mac's are good for things, but as someone said above, anything you can do on a Mac you can do on a well built PC as well. I built a PC last year where I can do anything I want on it. I use it mainly for burning CD's though so I do not need a $2000+ machine to do just that. I built the one I'm on now for close to $1000, and that was last year. Plus I have the option of expanding it on my own or tearing it down and building from the ground up for a while lot less than a Pre-built Mac. Plus, I can use the 19" CRT monitor I have had for the past 5 years and it gets better resolution than most 19" LCD monitors. 

So Macs are okay if you want an overhyped machine that claims to be all that and a bag of chips, or you can get a machine that sits there and does it's job quietly that you can get for a whole lot less.


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## trancejeremy (Oct 15, 2006)

Not that I have anything against them as cars, but another company whose trendy commercials I hate is Volkswagen.  Like their guitar player ads right now.  Other than Slash, who is hard to not recognize, I have no idea who any of the others are (Unless one is from Spinal Tap)


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## Aeolius (Oct 15, 2006)

Mr. Beef said:
			
		

> ...the Macs were so tough to use...Macs are okay if you want an overhyped machine...




   2 posts, eh? I almost hate feeding the troll. In a nutshell, anyone who bashes Macs has never used one.


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## drothgery (Oct 16, 2006)

Aeolius said:
			
		

> 2 posts, eh? I almost hate feeding the troll. In a nutshell, anyone who bashes Macs has never used one.




This really isn't true, and it's somewhat ironic that those most experienced with Windows are going to be the ones that have the most trouble with Macs. If you're used to Windows conventions -- you right-click, use keyboard shortcuts, know about the obscure icons and menus in popular Windows apps, and are highly proficient in Windows Explorer and other Windows OS tools -- then trying to get things done on a Mac, where all that experience is useless, is going to often be a very frustrating experience. I have to slide over to a Mac every week or so to test something -- I'm a web developer, and we have to make sure our apps work on Safari -- and if I have to get out of Safari for anything, it's not fun, because I don't know intuitively how anything works.


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## Dimwhit (Oct 16, 2006)

Meh. I think people overreact to those commercials. They serve their purpose. No more ridiculous that commercials from other computer makers.

I also love many of the anti-Mac arguments people still make, despite them being years out of date in some cases.


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## Simplicity (Oct 16, 2006)

Aeolius said:
			
		

> 2 posts, eh? I almost hate feeding the troll. In a nutshell, anyone who bashes Macs has never used one.




Is this a case of a troll calling the troll trolly?

I've used Macs.  I've used PCs.  I prefer PCs.


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## werk (Oct 16, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> I've used Macs.  I've used PCs.  I prefer PCs.




Ditto.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Oct 17, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> I also love many of the anti-Mac arguments people still make, despite them being years out of date in some cases.




I used my mother's Mac while on vacation with her for a week.  Or should say, I tried to use it -- after about an hour or two with the thing, I wanted to drop kick it out the window.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.  I  drive a manual transmission, prefer it, and hate automatics. That probably makes me more of an oddball than a Mac user.


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## Jesus_marley (Oct 17, 2006)

Having used both, I prefer the PC. 

That being said, the problem I have with the commercials is that they use a Comparative advertising method. Basically, the company uses their competitor to make themselves look better. I personally try to avoid companies that support that method of advertising. Just a personal preference.


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## kenobi65 (Oct 17, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> We had Apple 2s and Apple 2+s in high school - and DEC Rainbows (yay, CP/M!) in college.  Whippersnapper.




We had Radio Shack TRS-80s in high school.  Whippersnapper.


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## kenobi65 (Oct 17, 2006)

Jesus_marley said:
			
		

> That being said, the problem I have with the commercials is that they use a Comparative advertising method. Basically, the company uses their competitor to make themselves look better. I personally try to avoid companies that support that method of advertising. Just a personal preference.




You may not like 'em, but, in some circumstances, it's an extremely effective advertising method...particularly if you can illustrate a direct advantage (like the laundry detergent commericals that show Brand X getting out a stain, while Brand Y can't touch it).

(And, yes, I work in advertising.)


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## tonym (Oct 17, 2006)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I  drive a manual transmission, prefer it, and hate automatics. That probably makes me more of an oddball than a Mac user.




Ah.  You prefers PCs to Macs, and you prefer manual transmissions to automatics.

I've deduced that you prefer things that have a steep learning curve. 

I kid!  I kid! 

 

/ likes Macs
// can't drive a stick

Tony M


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## werk (Oct 17, 2006)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> We had Radio Shack TRS-80s in high school.  Whippersnapper.




Tandy!

Oh yeah!


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## TogaMario (Oct 17, 2006)

I actually didn't know this conversation would go any farther than a day, lol. I just get annoyed at false advertising, is all (and some elitist view that some Mac users seem to have). But I suppose all commercials have it to some degree, and brand loyalty is that, as unbalanced as FoxNews. Just wanted to know how everyone else felt.

As for the "bash macs because you've never used one before," it may be true in some cases, but I've been using PCs for over 12 years and Macs only 3 (and I own one, for acute business purposes ... fonts, namely). My inexperience with Macs in comparison to PCs could be a part of the problem, but I'm only speaking on the neutral ground issues, where no matter what your skill level of any computer is, there are unexplainable (and quite frustrating) problems / crashes / quirks. I would put a Macintosh in the same bin as the HP my parents bought for themselves two years ago, if it takes the line of brand loyalty away. Lately, I'm more apt to believe it's the software programmers fault on the application end, than the operating system (or hardware), but either way, it gets annoying.


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## Ambrus (Oct 17, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> / likes Macs
> // can't drive a stick



Same here. I own a Mac and can't drive stick either. I figure stick drivers must just be masochists or something.


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## kenobi65 (Oct 17, 2006)

werk said:
			
		

> Tandy!
> 
> Oh yeah!




During my freshman year of college, my girlfriend was an assistant manager at a Radio Shack.  When I was hanging around the store, visiting her, I'd help out when people had questions about the TRS-80 (because I knew a lot more about it than she did)...though, she didn't appreciate it when I'd occasionally slip up and refer to it as the "Trash-80".


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## kenobi65 (Oct 17, 2006)

Ambrus said:
			
		

> I figure stick drivers must just be masochists or something.




I used to love driving a stick until I moved to Chicago.  Sticks make traffic jams suck by an additional order of magnitude.


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## Aeolius (Oct 17, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> ...My inexperience with Macs in comparison to PCs could be a part of the problem, but I'm only speaking on the neutral ground issues, where no matter what your skill level of any computer is, there are unexplainable (and quite frustrating) problems / crashes / quirks...




   Fair enough. I've been using Apple computers since 1979 and PCs since the DOS days. It's all in what one is comfortable with, I suppose. I often forget how to access Windows Explorer and the Start button completely confuses me.  

   Macs are easy. Easy is good. However, there are those build-it-yourself types who feel that only challenging tasks are rewarding. I ain't one of those.   

I can use Windows, but prefer the Mac
I can drive automatic, but prefer stick


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## Ambrus (Oct 17, 2006)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> During my freshman year of college, my girlfriend was an assistant manager at a Radio Shack.  When I was hanging around the store, visiting her, I'd help out when people had questions about the TRS-80 (because I knew a lot more about it than she did)...though, she didn't appreciate it when I'd occasionally slip up and refer to it as the "Trash-80".



My first computer was a Tandy Color Computer 3; nick-named the CoCo3 in the industry. My friends called it the "Coco-puff".


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## TogaMario (Oct 18, 2006)

The first computer game (that had anything resembling graphics) I ever played was a vector looking dog-fight game on a Tandy. To this day I've had no luck producing a game better than that one, and it's depressing, lol. Respect to software developers from way back when. The Tandy we got after that one lasted a while before virii and old age accepted it.


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## ssampier (Oct 18, 2006)

Ambrus said:
			
		

> Same here. I own a Mac and can't drive stick either. I figure stick drivers must just be masochists or something.




No Mac computer (although I am looking long and hard at a nano), but I can't drive a standard either. I live in the country and I think owning a manual transmission vehicle is a prequisite for living here.


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## Jesus_marley (Oct 18, 2006)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> You may not like 'em, but, in some circumstances, it's an extremely effective advertising method...particularly if you can illustrate a direct advantage (like the laundry detergent commericals that show Brand X getting out a stain, while Brand Y can't touch it).
> 
> (And, yes, I work in advertising.)




I understand the principle behind it, and in some cases, when a direct advantage can be shown, I can tolerate it.... however, in the case of the Mac V. PC commercials, as well as others like Pepsi V. Coca Cola, where no clear advantage can be seen other than a "drink our pepsi cuz it's better than Coke" or "MACs Rule!!!! PCs Drool!" attempt to slam the competitor, I find that the commercials have the opposite effect.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 18, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> The first computer game (that had anything resembling graphics) I ever played was a vector looking dog-fight game on a Tandy.




Not _Elite_, by any chance?

-Hyp.


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## TogaMario (Oct 18, 2006)

Even more primitive than Elite. It was literally just two planes, two players, two different sides of the keyboard, lol. If I remember correctly, Elite was a space based game where you'd go from world to world, right? It's been a loooong time.

My old game nestalgia is at it's peak right now, though. I've got a load of old sierra games that I'm replaying now (Space Quest, King's Quest, Quest for Glory, Police Quest, Gabriel Knight, Laura Bow, Leisure Suit Larry, ehh ... Indiana Jones / Atlantis, The Dig, Monkey Island, Full Throttle ... which were LucasArts games, but in the similar genre) Why can't they make more just like those? It'd be much cheaper than some nasty multi-million dollar flop.


----------



## Jesus_marley (Oct 18, 2006)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Not _Elite_, by any chance?
> 
> -Hyp.




OMG!!! I loved that game..... I was the penultimate narco runner.....

 *sniff* I miss my C64.


----------



## Rel (Oct 18, 2006)

My mother in law owns a Mac and that's as good a reason as any for me not to want one.

It's remarkable how many decisions I make on a day to day basis purely for spite.


----------



## Dimwhit (Oct 18, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> My mother in law owns a Mac and that's as good a reason as any for me not to want one.
> 
> It's remarkable how many decisions I make on a day to day basis purely for spite.



 I know I enjoy making decisions to spite you, so I guess I know what you mean.


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## TogaMario (Oct 18, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> My mother in law owns a Mac and that's as good a reason as any for me not to want one.
> 
> It's remarkable how many decisions I make on a day to day basis purely for spite.




Heh, nice  I've been trying to learn Mac repair so that I can add it to my PC-IT arena and broaden my job options (and help some of my friends that have Macs). It doesn't help that I associate my Mac purely with business, too. But that's all I can associate it with. As soon as I got done with my work last night around 4 am, I jumped over to my PC, hooked up my XBox360 controller and played Super Metroid on an emulator. That's the freedom I'm talkin' about


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## Rel (Oct 18, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> I know I enjoy making decisions to spite you, so I guess I know what you mean.



Are you still here?  I thought I banned you...


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## Dimwhit (Oct 18, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> Are you still here?  I thought I banned you...



 Haha, that's funny.

Like you have the balls...


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## Aeolius (Oct 18, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> The first computer game (that had anything resembling graphics) I ever played was a vector looking dog-fight game on a Tandy.




   You ought to have tried playing an Odyssey , sometime. The Haunted House game was cool, so long as you didn't mind taping a transparent overlay on your TV screen and playing a moving square behind it.


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## Rel (Oct 18, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Haha, that's funny.
> 
> Like you have the balls...




You're playing with FIRE, mister!


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## Dimwhit (Oct 18, 2006)

_PERMABANNED BY REL_


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## TogaMario (Oct 18, 2006)

I remember watching a special on the "Odyssey" where the guy who invented it also happened to invent the gun-controller too. That man is my hero.

Since this conversation has trailed into more happy territory, I might as well ask the Q. Anyone else have the Mario Bros / Duck Hunt / Track and Field game for NES and the light gun / way-pre-DDR pad that went with it? It's no surprise to me that the Wii has come forward in the ranks of next-gen. Those people at Nintendo know when (and how) to spice it up


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## Aeolius (Oct 18, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> ...Anyone else have the Mario Bros / Duck Hunt / Track and Field game for NES and the light gun / way-pre-DDR pad that went with it?




 No, but I do have a Mario Bros. arcade machine that I bought on eBay


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## Rel (Oct 19, 2006)

How do you like THEM apples, Dimwhit!


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## Rel (Oct 19, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> _PERMABANNED BY REL_




I was just kiddin' about that actually.


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## ssampier (Oct 19, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> I was just kiddin' about that actually.




okaaaaaaaaaaay. 

So Macs are great PCs are not. What?


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## Henry (Oct 19, 2006)

The only experiences I've had with Macs, to be fair, have been with bad ones, ones badly out of service, or badly configured for what the user wanted to do with them.

In one case, a Mac we had at work had been in storage for a few years, and the company wanted to see if we could get use out of it. The operating system was something like OS6 or OS7, no modem or network card, and the equivalent of a 486 (one of those Motorola 680486 or whatever processors). I couldn't make any software work for it because of damaged system files, and while apple offered downloadable disk images, the Mac had no decompression software, and because of the forking file structure, my decompressing them on a PC ruined the files. In the end we tossed the sucker because it wasn't worth putting money into. Would've been nice to have one to play with and compare, though.

In any case, we use Dells for our business, and they perform stellarly. Their single most breakable part for us is the power supplies, but to be fair our plant environment is harsh on ALL computer power supplies, so I can't fault 'em. Otherwise, we're had no more or less problems with them than with any other PC manufacturer --  pretty minimal.


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## tonym (Oct 19, 2006)

I once saw a Windows PC come to life and start killing everybody for no reason.  It was horrible!  

Then a Mac computer, who had come to life two years earlier and had a much friendlier personality, slashed the PC in half with *one swing* of its katana.

Yay!

Tony M


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## TogaMario (Oct 19, 2006)

Power supply failure is getting a lot more common than it used to be. I've had two friends that had to replace their power supply a month after buying pre-made PCs and another more recently that had to replace one in a PC he built after a power blink (not even during a storm) and he was on a newish surge protector. I guess if I had to replace anything, I'd rather it be a ~$100 purchase than the whole computer, still makes you wonder if it's because we're travelling into the 650+ watt range or if the manufacturers are cutting corners or something?

Also, to add fuel to the embers  Last night my Mac started acting loopy right after I turned it on. I went to open Illustrator and the icon bounced insatiably for a few minutes, so I force-quit it and tried to open something less demanding, like Safari. Bounce bounce bounce, etc. So I get angry and start clicking on all the programs, making them dance in the midnight air. I force-quit finder, hoping it might recover (possibly from a one-time glitch from startup). No such luck. I tap the power button on / off to see if that'll recover it. Nope. Hold the button in for five seconds and start anew. Ahhh, I love my PC


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## tonym (Oct 19, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> Also, to add fuel to the embers  ...




That's another thing I like about Macs.  When there is a problem, the solution is often turn it off, turn it on.  There are no layers of complexity and esoteric options and technical phonecalls and asking your friends and reading books to figure out what is going on, like with PCs.  

With Macs, if it starts acting weird, 95% of the time the solution is turn it off, then turn it back on.  You never need to know what happened, or care.

With PCs, problems repeat, so you need to track down the problem to eliminate it.  Macs just act wonky once in a blue moon.

If problems persist with a Mac, here's how most problems are fixed:

* Update the OS.
* If that doesn't work, then open the Utilities folder, open Disk Utilities and click _repair permissions_.
* If that doesn't work, open _console.log_ to see which application was causing the problem, then delete that program or update it.
* If that doesn't work, you probably need to have the machine repaired by somebody.

Last month I spent several hours problem-solving on my daughter's PC before I got "Kitty Luv" to run.  Hours!  And nowadays, with a different game, the cursor sometimes zooms to the bottom left corner and stays there, even after the game is force-quit.  On another game, the cursor turns invisible sometimes.  Another game it played great once, but never ran a second time.  And one of the best programs on the PC stopped working after I installed the System Pack 2 update for XP.  Gah!

Yeh, if I had all the time in the world, I could probably fix all these problems by typing arcane instructions on a command line, then deleting a certain line of code from System file, then downloading a new dll file and copying it into the Win32 folder, and then do other esoteric things...  

But I don't feel like spending the hours and hours needed to learn how to do those things.

Truly, I abominate troubleshooting.

Tony M


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## TogaMario (Oct 19, 2006)

Heh, well, it's quite up to date and it happens every couple days or so, and has since I bought it. So the "just turn it off and forget about it" solution doesn't fly. I appreciate the tips, but those haven't helped either, and I've gone through quite a few other motions to try and fix it after I got it. Out of the box, it shouldn't require repair work ... but it does, apparently. I'd like to see them advertise that away. Like I said when I opened this thread, no different than a well kept PC.

"Macs just act wonky once in a blue moon." Yours might, but mine acts wonky once or twice per sitting (barring last night when I had Acrobat / Illustrator / Photoshop and "Preview" crashing constantly from 20kb files, so I had to switch over to my PC to preview a workorder). Within a 24 hour period (not including parts order/shipped) I could diagnose/fix my (or anyone's) PC problems. The fact is with all the time in the world you'll never fix a Mac problem because you can't access all that "esoteric" stuff.

Edit: I could say that even a new PC doesn't have problems out of the box, but it would be a lie. Truth of the matter is manufacturers have flaws, software have memory leaks, hardware will conflict, and operating systems try to juggle it all. I'm not saying all Macs are bad, and all PCs are good. But if you want to have a true range of freedom for all types of applications, you need a good PC. Not a PC from Best Buy, not a 200 dollar laptop, not a $4000 mac. Aside from programmer errors and manufacturing flaws, a good PC will always do more than a good Mac.


----------



## tonym (Oct 19, 2006)

If it was wonky out of the box, you should've returned it for a replacement.  A percentage of everything arrives defective, after all.

The PC mentality of "everything can be fixed if I waste enough time troubleshooting it" doesn't apply to Macs, IMO.  

The average Mac works perfectly.  Yours must be one of the defective ones.

Tony M


----------



## TogaMario (Oct 19, 2006)

The same could be said for PCs. But I run a business that requires 24 hour turnaround, and if I send this Mac off to be fixed or replaced, I risk losing a very large supplement to my paycheck over a couple of days. I'll deal with wonky, but I don't like it. Granted, I haven't had a major catastrophe with the Mac yet, and that makes if much better than the first PC I ever owned. But I won't base my whole experience with just one machine. As I said, I've worked with 6-7 different Macs at my previous job, ranging from G3 to G5 and although the nicer G5 system never gave me any problems, it cost the company over $3000.

For the common Mac user, would you say that a major problem generally requires someone else to fix it? Because it's the same for PCs, although, I know enough about mine that I can fix it without paying an over-priced service charge plus parts and shipping. There's no way that you can base an entire brand so generally in advertising, because each user has different needs, and although I applaud Apple's method of making anything potentially hazardous hidden, it certainly doesn't make the entire system more stable. To start off, I can tell you that I enjoy the heck out Garageband on my Mac, but that's not what I use it for. (Edit) Oh, I also like the widgets a lot . It's supposed to be reliable for media production. This hasn't been the case on any of the 8 Macs I've worked with except one (the really expensive one).

(Double Edit) Let's be honest. The average computer that you buy from anywhere works perfectly, regardless of Apple/PC heritage. If you buy it from Target for $200, you're trading money for lifespan. Apple doesn't have a computer for $200, but if they did, you can guarantee some corners were cut, and that sucker would be belly-up in a year or less. The better you arm yourself with knowledge on either side of the fence [and, sadly, the more money you spend], the longer your computer will last and the less problems you'll have. But they don't advertise this, of course, because it's all about who is better, when neither are. Your computer is only as good as the person operating it.


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## tonym (Oct 19, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> ...For the common Mac user, would you say that a major problem generally requires someone else to fix it? Because it's the same for PCs, although, I know enough about mine that I can fix it without paying an over-priced service charge plus parts and shipping....




Yeh, I'd say that.  With a Mac, a major problem requires somebody to fix it.  Just like a PC.

The difference is that an average Mac has very few _average-sized_ problems, while an average PC has many.  (A newer Mac, at any rate.)  

Average-sized problems are horrible because they might actually be minor, self-fixable problems, but you're not sure.  So you take a stab at troubleshooting...  

"Let's try...this."  But that doesn't work, so you try something else.  Then you spend a couple hours researching the problem, then try something else.  All this is time wasted.

PCs have so many potential problems, even the computer-fixers at Best Buy have a terrible reputation for not knowing what to do when people bring in their wonky PCs for repair-jobs. 

My point is, it's much easier to identify problems as fixible or not fixable with a Mac...which saves time.  Plus most problems are fixed easily.


Tony M


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## TogaMario (Oct 19, 2006)

I agree, it's very convenient that I can turn the Mac on and off to fix most problems. It would be nice if Windows was a little less breakable, but as long as it's known that most computer problems stim from poor decisions made by users. A lot of times, it's people doing something they shouldn't have been. But the fact that they could do those things in the first place is unsettling. Maybe they should have two versions of Windows to choose from at startup. "Protect me from myself." and "Bring it on!", lol.

Most of the people at Best Buy (at least the one I live near) can't be real technical support people. I almost applied for a job there a few years ago, but then I talked to a few of them separately on different subjects. It's like they read a website or a pamphlet on computer repair that they can recite, and nothing else.

Thanks for the good counter points, Tony! I was hoping nobody would be close-minded (or downright rude and unexplanatory) with this one. I know PC vs Mac is a touchy subject, but I think we're doing it right, lol.


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## tonym (Oct 19, 2006)

Cool.  I was afraid I might be coming across as a Mac zealot. 

Haha, protect-me-from-myself mode.  Maybe that'll be an option in Vista!  Quick, email Bill Gates!

 

Tony M


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## Dimwhit (Oct 19, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> I was just kiddin' about that actually.



 Yeah, I figured you were kidding. You fear my wrath if you actually permabanned me, don't you. Admit it.

Then admit I'm better than you and we can all move on.


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## Rel (Oct 20, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Yeah, I figured you were kidding. You fear my wrath if you actually permabanned me, don't you. Admit it.
> 
> Then admit I'm better than you and we can all move on.




NEVAH!!


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## R-man (Oct 20, 2006)

My wife and I have five computers in our house, three macs and two PC's, of which only two of them (one of each) are new machines. We both are believers in using the right tool for the job and will switch back and forth between the machines regularly.

We use the macs for work, both professional and casual (all my Pc character sheets are in excel on the mac) We also use the macs exclusively for websurfing as they just don't have the problems with spyware and viruses that pcs do. 

We use the Pc's for pc specific applications that will not work on the mac, this includes my wifes involvement with Girl Guides Canada and my enjoyment of computer games.

For us the Macs are for work and the PC's are for play.

However we are unusual in that we are comfortable on both machines and are familier with the shortcuts and easy workarounds etc on the machines.

Incidentally the three macs are running OS X ,9 and 8 on the three machines that we have. Yes the system 8 machine is very very old. Performa 6200CD built about 1994-95 or so.


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## Rel (Oct 20, 2006)

R-man said:
			
		

> For us the Macs are for work and the PC's are for play.




Is it just me or is that hilarious in light of the commercials being discussed?


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## tonym (Oct 20, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> Is it just me or is that hilarious in light of the commercials being discussed?





That *is* funny.  But probably not uncommon.  My household is like that: the Mac is for work and internet; the PC is for play.

Speaking of commercials, the new ones for Hewlett Packard computers are really good--the ones where you don't see the guy's head as he moves his hands around, creating new files and stuff.     

Tony M


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## TogaMario (Oct 20, 2006)

I tried to let it be that way, but every Mac I've come in contact with (but one) has been unsuitable for the work I do. 100% of the game art I do for clients is on the PC, and seems to go so much more smoothly (no program delays / save errors / crashes without the ability to recover) than any of the pre-print graphics work I have to do on the Mac. If I could get all the fonts for Windows instead of the Mac, I wouldn't have the Mac at all.

What kind of work do you guys do on your Macs?

Edit: Oh yeah, that commercial is pretty cool.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 20, 2006)

I am a long time windows user, and build my own systems type guy.  I owned a Power Mac for awhile and it was cool.  Macs are decent computers, have thier uses, and OSX is nice.  However I didn't find it anymore stable than my XP system, which like the 2000 Pro system before that is rock solid.  

I eventually ripped the Mac system apart and used its parts to put together a Ubuntu Linux box, the OS that I think I will migrate too after my XP machine becomes obsolete.


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## Simplicity (Oct 20, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> That *is* funny.  But probably not uncommon.  My household is like that: the Mac is for work and internet; the PC is for play.




That's how it is with my wife's computer.  Mac for work... PC for games.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Oct 20, 2006)

OK, my first PC was a Timex-Sinclair with a cassette drive and a membrane keyboard.  An'd I've used punch cards.  I looked at color Tandys and Trash-80s with envy.  Does that make me old?


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## Dimwhit (Oct 21, 2006)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> OK, my first PC was a Timex-Sinclair with a cassette drive and a membrane keyboard.  An'd I've used punch cards.  I looked at color Tandys and Trash-80s with envy.  Does that make me old?



 Yes. Yes it does.


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## drothgery (Oct 21, 2006)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I looked at color Tandys and Trash-80s with envy.




My dad brought one of those home when I was in second grade. And I was writing BASIC code not long after that (or at least copying it out of a magazine)


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## tonym (Oct 21, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> ...What kind of work do you guys do on your Macs?




Digital art and cartoony stuff.  I do the "Zogonia" strip in Dragon and the "Mt. Zogon" strip in Dungeon. 

Tony M


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## TogaMario (Oct 22, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> Digital art and cartoony stuff.  I do the "Zogonia" strip in Dragon and the "Mt. Zogon" strip in Dungeon.
> 
> Tony M




Cool!


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## Achan hiArusa (Oct 22, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> Mac: Hi, I'm a Mac.
> PC: And I'm a PC.  Anyways, let's get right down to it.  You, Mac, are an a-hole.
> Mac: Whaaaaa?
> PC: An expensive, featureless, one-button-mouse a-hole.  How is that one-button thing working out for you, anyways?
> ...




(Reposted from Memory after IE on this PC crashed going to the Apple Store, hmmm).

Uh, actually Macs can support two and three button mice, they just don't come standard.  But the new wireless Mighty Mouse is an exception.  And now the new Intel Macs can run Windows XP without need for an emulator.

I have had fewer problems with Macs than anyother computer out there and I've used them since the day of the TRS-80.  I currently have an Athlon AMD homebrew 850, a G4 ibook (my baby), a custom built Gateway a friend of mine gave me (he paid way too much money on it two years ago by clicking every option, it needs a new hard drive), a G3 iMac, and a 540c Powerbook running system 7.1.1 which still works 11 years later (the batteries are long dead though).  I wrote 98% of my thesis on a G3 ibook (except for a few graphs I needed from Origin 7.0).

Its also the chosen computer for the scientists at NASA.  Part of the reason is that you can run UNIX/Linux applications like IRAF and TEC without installing Red Hat, Mandrake, Ubuntu, or Knoppix on your computer.  And part of it is the same problems I've had, its far easier to transfer pictures and graphs from Mac to Mac or Mac to PC than it is to transfer them from PC to PC.


----------



## TogaMario (Oct 22, 2006)

I had a three-button mouse on my Macs where I worked. Much easier to get around the OS with a multi-button mouse. Get Firefox, abandon I.E. (I say this, having not tried I.E. 7, so we'll see how that changes things, if it does at all) Even when it comes to web design, I always have to do extra coding to accomodate Internet Explorer's horrendous respect for compliance.


----------



## Dimwhit (Oct 22, 2006)

Achan hiArusa said:
			
		

> Uh, actually Macs can support two and three button mice, they just don't come standard.




They do, actually, and have for a year or two. The Mighty Mouse comes standard on all new Macs, and it's a multi-buttonm mouse. Now is it a good one? That's debateable, but I love it. Bought a bluetooth Mighty Mouse for my Mac Book Pro, and it's sweet.


----------



## Achan hiArusa (Oct 23, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> They do, actually, and have for a year or two. The Mighty Mouse comes standard on all new Macs, and it's a multi-buttonm mouse. Now is it a good one? That's debateable, but I love it. Bought a bluetooth Mighty Mouse for my Mac Book Pro, and it's sweet.




Now I'm the one out of date (see hardware list above)


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## Arravis (Oct 23, 2006)

I have two brand new custom-built PC's at home because I'm a PC gamer. I've been using PC's as far back as 1982, and I know them fairly well. But, as a graphic designer, I've been using macs since the 90's and for work, I MUCH prefer them. The latest build of OSX is particularly nice, and the entire thing is simply much more stable, elegant, and better thought out than any PC build (custom or not) I've ever owned. I've never had a problem on a mac I couldn't resolve in under 30 minutes (usually much less), not in the 14 years I've used them. And the problems I have had, have been fairly easy to ferret out, completely unlike the nightmare, infinate hours I've spent trouble-shooting PC's over the last 24 years (dear god, it's been that long?).

Bugs and problems on a PC are like some sort of cruel game on its users. They could be anywhere, hidden in the most obscure and unintuitive of places. Any time I run an update on any part of my PC, install any new software or hardware, or make any major change... it turns into a random minefield. Maybe it'll work just fine, but maybe it won't. Should I run the update and risk it crashing the system as it finds some deeply hidden incompatability? If I don't run it, but update other things, does that bring out the crash? Who knows... its a gamble everytime you change something on it. On a mac, I don't feel like I'm playing Russian roulette everytime I add/change the configuration. It simply works. In my line of work, when deadlines make and break everything, reliability and stability of a platform are critical.

My biggest complaint with Apple is the state of mac-gaming. Except for the heady days of Marathon (a precurser to Halo from Bungie), there wasn't much going for it in that arena.


----------



## Aeolius (Oct 23, 2006)

Arravis said:
			
		

> ...Except for the heady days of Marathon (a precurser to Halo from Bungie), there wasn't much going for it in that arena.





I still miss Spectre VR


----------



## Enforcer (Oct 23, 2006)

I switched from PC (a Dell Inspiron 5150 laptop, which is now part of a class action lawsuit re how often their motherboards fail, mine died twice) to Mac (12" G4 iBook) in Nov. 2004 and will never switch back.

Caveats: I don't use a Mac at work, in fact I'm typing this on a Windows machine. I don't play a lot of games (just World of Warcraft), but if I get the money for a new MacBook Pro I'd play more games using Windows XP on it.

The two-button mouse myth has already been dispelled by Dimwhit, although I will say that it took years too long for Apple to get on board with a practical mouse.

The "Macs are more expensive" argument is also seeing some changes. See here . Still, for the cheapest computer out there, regardless of specs, Dell still has the advantage.

But I prefer my Mac mostly because of OS X. I use Expose, Spotlight, Dashboard, none of which are available for Windows without 3rd-party software. Spotlight is the greatest thing ever in my opinion.

And the whole iLife suite is also great (and free with your Mac!), again none of which is similarly available on Windows without the downloading of third-party programs or purchasing new software. The site in my sig was made in iWeb, for example, and took about 15 min. to set up. Whereas this site from before my iWeb days took my a lot longer because I had to buy a book about HTML and learn the basics for myself.

I also vastly prefer apps like Apple Mail, Address Book, and iCal to their traditional Windows counterpart (Microsoft Outlook) due to stability and ease of use. And while I can't speak to TogaMario's stability issues, my iBook has never crashed, ever. The worst I've had happen was Force-quitting Safari a few times. *shrug*

Yeah, I guess I'm a fanboy now, but since I haven't wanted to throw my home computer against a wall for almost two years, I think the fanaticism is worth it.


----------



## Simplicity (Oct 23, 2006)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> The two-button mouse myth has already been dispelled by Dimwhit, although I will say that it took years too long for Apple to get on board with a practical mouse.




The people I know who have Macs are all using laptops.  And yes, you can always connect a mouse to your laptop...  but I don't and they don't.  And there's only one button sitting on that stupid touchpad.  I'll admit it's a myth, when Apple admits it's a stupid design.


----------



## Enforcer (Oct 23, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> The people I know who have Macs are all using laptops.  And yes, you can always connect a mouse to your laptop...  but I don't and they don't.  And there's only one button sitting on that stupid touchpad.  I'll admit it's a myth, when Apple admits it's a stupid design.



Actually, you can right-click on the new MacBooks and MacBook Pros without an external mouse. You just have to enable the setting in System Preferences. So go ahead!


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## Dimwhit (Oct 23, 2006)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> Actually, you can right-click on the new MacBooks and MacBook Pros without an external mouse. You just have to enable the setting in System Preferences. So go ahead!



 Winner!

And hey, I didn't know that feature was there, so thanks.


----------



## Enforcer (Oct 23, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Winner!
> 
> And hey, I didn't know that feature was there, so thanks.



My pleasure, and that feature was relatively new. At first only the 17" MacBook Pros had it, then all MacBooks/MacBook Pros were updated with it as of 10.4.7


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## TogaMario (Oct 23, 2006)

I have a fremale friend who had a Mac laptop. It worked well for a year and a half, then the cd-drive failed on it, and a month later the system as a whole failed (blinky question mark upon startup). There was no way around it without using a CD. The CD-ROM was busted. She now had a not-too-comfortable seat-cushion.

Again, these are my experiences that tell me that there is no difference between a well kept PC and any kind of Mac. I'm glad the newer ones seem to be going about things with a little more stablility (as I experienced with the G5 and from what I can tell of other user posts here). Mobility is the only advantage to laptops that I can tell. Limited upgradability, easy to scratch up the HDD by accident, and no SLI are keeping me from ever buying one again (from PC or Mac manufacturers).


----------



## Hypersmurf (Oct 23, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> I have a fremale friend who had a Mac laptop.




Never trust a fremale with a laptop!

-Hyp.


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## tonym (Oct 23, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> Again, these are my experiences that tell me that there is no difference between a well kept PC and any kind of Mac.




No difference?!  * sputter *

At less than 5% of the computer market, Mac is the underdog.  Windows-PC, on the other hand, is the big dog that controls over 95% of the computer landscape.  And the big dog wants to destroy Mac. 

That is a big difference between owning a Mac and a Windows PC.  Owning a PC is conventional.  It is unremarkable.  It is the default choice when one does not choose.

Owning a Mac is radical.  It is like siding with Frodo against Mordor!

It is like siding with Luke and Han against the Empire!

Owning a Mac in a PC-world is revolutionary.  It is defiant.  Owning a Mac is saying, "I demand a choice!"

Frodo lives!  Frodo lives!

Why do you hate freedom?  

 

Tony M


----------



## IcyCool (Oct 23, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> Owning a Mac is radical.  It is like siding with Frodo against Mordor!
> 
> It is like siding with Luke and Han against the Empire!
> 
> Why do you hate freedom?




Let's see, small groups of people looking for a revolution, or, failing that, looking to do as much damage to "the establishment" as possible.  I don't hate freedom, I'm just against terrorism. 

That and I don't like berets and beatnik poetry.  Seriously, they cause me physical pain.


----------



## Simplicity (Oct 23, 2006)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> Actually, you can right-click on the new MacBooks and MacBook Pros without an external mouse. You just have to enable the setting in System Preferences. So go ahead!




There's one physical button.  You can't "enable right-clicking" when there's only one button.  You can enable some stupid hold your finger down and click.  Or double-click = right-click.  It seems to be the rage with Mac users.  Maybe, Apple could set up some kind of Morse code for mouse-clicks.  DIT for left click and DAH for right.  Or maybe they could have some sort of DDR-like minigame you could play with your fingers to earn a right-click.  

Wheras PC users just click a button that comes with all machines ON the machine.  We can even double-click our right-clicks!  Eventually, Apple will ditch the one-button idea, like they did with their proprietary CPUs.  After that, they'll change their OS and everyone will start to wonder what the big deal was about.


----------



## Simplicity (Oct 24, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> Frodo lives!  Frodo lives!
> 
> Why do you hate freedom?




Frodo doesn't come onto my TV and tell me lies about himself.
"Oh viruses never affect Frodo!"  
"Sauron can't even use a digital camera!"
"Sauron's doesn't have any good programs!"
"I'm way cooler than a fiery eye above a mountain!"

I'm just glad this Frodo has finally shut up about RISC processors.


----------



## tonym (Oct 24, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Let's see, small groups of people looking for a revolution, or, failing that, looking to do as much damage to "the establishment" as possible.  I don't hate freedom, I'm just against terrorism.




Ya know, that's _exactly_ what the Nazgul said to Frodo before stabbing him.  Approximately.

By siding against Frodo, you have become the Nazgul in my analogy.  



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> That and I don't like berets and beatnik poetry.  Seriously, they cause me physical pain.




Pff.  The beret and beatnik poetry that came with my Mac, I just threw away--the same thing my sister did with the freebies that came with her Windows-PC.  

If I recall correctly, she threw away a photo of a borg saying "Resistance is futile" and a t-shirt that said, "Windows shoul [sic] be the only OS on our plant."

 

Tony M


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Oct 24, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, she threw away a photo of a borg saying "Resistance is futile" and a t-shirt that said, "Windows shoul [sic] be the only OS on our plant."




She only got the t-shirt and picture?! Pfft, a real Borg came with mine!


----------



## tonym (Oct 24, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> Frodo doesn't come onto my TV and tell me lies about himself.
> ......."I'm way cooler than a fiery eye above a mountain!"




The firey eye above the mountain is cool.....to orcs.  It's no secret, orcs love fire because they like things that burn and melt, like villages and motherboards.

For your love of fire, you are the orc in my analogy.

Frodo lives!  Frodo hates the unblinking eye!

 

Tony M


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## tonym (Oct 24, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> She only got the t-shirt and picture?! Pfft, a real Borg came with mine!




Is _that_ what that thing in the plastic cannister was?  All those parts you had to assemble?

Wow.  I thought it was a bionicle.

Tony M


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## Dimwhit (Oct 24, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> "Oh viruses never affect Frodo!"




This is my favorite complaint when people say Apple lies.

Do me a favor, do some research and list all the viruses that have spread to Macs in the last year. Or, if you prefer, ever. Be sure to mention how malicious they are, just for fun. I'm curious to see what you come up with.

Apple has never claimed that Macs _can't_ be infected by viruses, just that they aren't (the odd one or two benign viruses excepted).

But feel free to prove that wrong.

Edit: Sorry, caught me in a mood. Feel free to ignore.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Oct 24, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> Is _that_ what that thing in the plastic cannister was?  All those parts you had to assemble?
> 
> Wow.  I thought it was a bionicle.
> 
> Tony M



 Nope, that was the Borg attachment.

It looks small, but you have to get a friend to add the parts to and then hook it up to the USB port to get the thing working.


----------



## tonym (Oct 24, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Nope, that was the Borg attachment.
> 
> It looks small, but you have to get a friend to add the parts to and then hook it up to the USB port to get the thing working.




Oh.  I just called my sister to tell her that, but she had already figured it out.

She also said that when she plugged the borg-thing into a USB port of her Windows-PC to get it working, the borg-thing instantly contracted a virus.  It then started screaming in agony and threw itself into the paper shredder, to end its torment.

My sister feels pretty bad about it.  Evidentally, the previous day she had turned-off her firewall before installing a new program, and forgot to turn it back on.  

Being a Mac user, I'm not sure what a virus is, but it sounds like something bad.

 
Tony M


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## Simplicity (Oct 24, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> This is my favorite complaint when people say Apple lies.
> 
> Do me a favor, do some research and list all the viruses that have spread to Macs in the last year. Or, if you prefer, ever. Be sure to mention how malicious they are, just for fun. I'm curious to see what you come up with.
> 
> ...




I'm a computer security expert.  I've got a graduate degree in it.  I work for a large networking company doing network security programming.  And the ONLY reason Macs aren't affected by the wave after wave of viruses is that they are virtually unused by the general population.  If Macs were the most popular platform, you'd better believe they'd be the ones being hit.

The argument of "people don't bother to write viruses for us because they'd never spread due to our unpopularity" just doesn't hold a lot of water for me.  The programming flaws that are seen in Windows exist because of the programming languages used to write programs and because of sloppy programming.  Apple uses the same languages, and they use programmers from the same pool of talent (though my guess is that they pay less than Microsoft).


----------



## Enforcer (Oct 24, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> There's one physical button. You can't "enable right-clicking" when there's only one button. You can enable some stupid hold your finger down and click. Or double-click = right-click. It seems to be the rage with Mac users. Maybe, Apple could set up some kind of Morse code for mouse-clicks. DIT for left click and DAH for right. Or maybe they could have some sort of DDR-like minigame you could play with your fingers to earn a right-click.



Why is it stupid? Oh! Because you say so. I beg forgiveness. It actually couldn't be easier to use. And, my Dell Inspiron trackpad had a similar option (make one corner of the pad do a right-click), despite it having two physical buttons. Well, before the Dell's motherboard died. Again.



> Wheras PC users just click a button that comes with all machines ON the machine. We can even double-click our right-clicks! Eventually, Apple will ditch the one-button idea, like they did with their proprietary CPUs. After that, they'll change their OS and everyone will start to wonder what the big deal was about.



Change their OS to what? Roll it back to Vista? How many Mac OS X Tiger features is Vista copying? Let's see... Spotlight, Dashboard, Expose, requiring a password to install software. That's four off the top of my head. Why copy clueless computer people like Apple?



> If Macs were the most popular platform, you'd better believe they'd be the ones being hit.



But it's not, so they aren't. And that means that despite your hypothetical, my computer is safer from viruses than any Windows machine. Will that change one day? Maybe. But for now I'll get my gloat on.


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## Dimwhit (Oct 24, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> And the ONLY reason Macs aren't affected by the wave after wave of viruses is that they are virtually unused by the general population.  If Macs were the most popular platform, you'd better believe they'd be the ones being hit.




I totally agree. But the fact is, Macs just aren't affected by viruses right now. That will change as they become more popular (assuming they get enough market share), but right now, it's a legitimate selling point to say that if you buy a Mac, you wan't have to deal with viruses.

From everything I read, they're not claiming to be impervious to viruses, there just aren't any for Macs. And that's true. And a damned nice thing, too. I love not having to deal with them.


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## TogaMario (Oct 24, 2006)

Windows being effected by virus after virus is a penalty of that freedom we enjoy. Same with the unwitting people who easily send their computers to an unusable state too often to count (and far more quickly than I could ever give them credit ... namely, my parents). That's why I proposed a "Save me from myself" mode. Of course, then there's the 13 year old in a foreign country that thinks it's cool to disrupt millions of users experience because he figured out how to buffer overflow a pornographic jpg (or something similarly rediculous) and of course he prides himself on circumventing defenses.


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## drothgery (Oct 24, 2006)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> Change their OS to what? Roll it back to Vista? How many Mac OS X Tiger features is Vista copying? Let's see... Spotlight, Dashboard, Expose, requiring a password to install software. That's four off the top of my head. Why copy clueless computer people like Apple?




Spotlight was ripped from early versions of Longhorn, and requiring a password to install software is simply the conventional mode when running as non-admin (and is the case even now in Windows). The only change in Vista is that it's not creating users as admins by default.


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## IronWolf (Oct 24, 2006)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Spotlight was ripped from early versions of Longhorn




A case where they can't quite keep up with what other OS's are doing and have been doing.



			
				drothgery said:
			
		

> requiring a password to install software is simply the conventional mode when running as non-admin (and is the case even now in Windows)




Of course with people running with administrative rights all the time it didn't really make that much of a difference.



			
				drothgery said:
			
		

> The only change in Vista is that it's not creating users as admins by default.




And it is about time they caught up to this.


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## ssampier (Oct 24, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> No difference?!  * sputter *
> 
> ....
> Owning a Mac in a PC-world is revolutionary.  It is defiant.  Owning a Mac is saying, "I demand a choice!"
> ...


----------



## Simplicity (Oct 24, 2006)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> Why is it stupid? Oh! Because you say so. I beg forgiveness.




Yes.  It's stupid because I say so, and you are forgiven.

As for the viruses, since it's no longer an argument about the instrinic qualities of the OS, I'm fine with that.


----------



## Enforcer (Oct 24, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> Yes.  It's stupid because I say so, and you are forgiven.



Thanks so much!


----------



## tonym (Oct 24, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> As for the viruses, since it's no longer an argument about the instrinic qualities of the OS, I'm fine with that.




I think the freedom from viruses is intrinsic to the OS.  

Here is my thinking:

Apple makes security updates from time-to-time.  So the Apple folks are literally _trying_ to keep their OS safe from viruses.

Whether or not there are a hackers who are trying to write viruses for OS 10 does not matter.  The folks who are coding the security updates are acting as if there _are_.  (And there probably are.)

Imagine my home's smoke alarm.  Whether or not my house is on fire does not matter.  The smoke alarm still is an intrinsic element of my home's security. 

In other words, just because the Windows house is on fire and its smoke alarm is constantly beeping does not mean my smoke alarm has no intrinsic value.

Tony M


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## IcyCool (Oct 24, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> Ya know, that's _exactly_ what the Nazgul said to Frodo before stabbing him.  Approximately.
> 
> By siding against Frodo, you have become the Nazgul in my analogy.




Wait, so in your analogy I'm a cool-as-hell, dark and imposing, wraith-like, former badass _king_ who stalks the shadows of Middle Earth and inspires terror in the hearts of even the most courageous warrior.  And you're the helpless, whiny, _hairy-footed fat kid_? 

I thought you Mac people were supposed to be smart?  What kind of comparison is _that_? 

_Edit - Although I suppose the logo makes sense now, that bite out of the apple is because you were hungry... _


----------



## Rel (Oct 24, 2006)

Let's keep the snark under control here folks.  I don't want to have to lock this thread on the basis of religious discussion.


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## IcyCool (Oct 24, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> Let's keep the snark under control here folks.  I don't want to have to lock this thread on the basis of religious discussion.




Was the snark comment in reference to me?  If so, I can add a liberal amount of smileys to my post, as it is truly meant in jest (much like Tonym's post to me).  If your comment wasn't about me, then why do you continue to ignore me Rel?  All I really want is to be loved!


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## Rel (Oct 24, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Was the snark comment in reference to me?  If so, I can add a liberal amount of smileys to my post, as it is truly meant in jest (much like Tonym's post to me).  If your comment wasn't about me, then why do you continue to ignore me Rel?  All I really want is to be loved!




It was not SPECIFICALLY about you.  But I think a smiley or two might help to convey the tone of your post better.  I thought it was funny but others might read it differently.

As for loving you, first you have to tell me I'm pretty.


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## tonym (Oct 24, 2006)

IcyCool, your attempts to demoralize Frodo have failed!  

You are no longer a Nazgul in my analogy, though.  After your last post, you are now the Mouth of Sauron.

Frodo lives!

  <-- Note the friendly emoticon of humor.

Tony M


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## Rel (Oct 24, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> <-- Note the friendly emoticon of humor.
> 
> Tony M




Well done!  However you still haven't told me I'm pretty.  Don't make me ban you.

And I'll see your   and raise you a   .


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## IcyCool (Oct 24, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> As for loving you, first you have to tell me I'm pretty.




But ... but ... that would be _lying_, I can't do that!


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## Rel (Oct 24, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> But ... but ... that would be _lying_, I can't do that!




THIS is why nobody loves you.  Lying is essential to the love process.


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## tonym (Oct 24, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> Well done!  However you still haven't told me I'm pretty.  Don't make me ban you.
> 
> And I'll see your   and raise you a   .




I'm not convinced you can ban people.  
Nobody would ever give _you_ that much power.

     <----Look!  No emoticon!

Tony M


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## Dimwhit (Oct 24, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> Let's keep the snark under control here folks.  I don't want to have to lock this thread on the basis of religious discussion.




I didn't notice anything snarky in this thread until you posted. I vote you ban yourself...


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## IcyCool (Oct 24, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> IcyCool, your attempts to demoralize Frodo have failed!




Are you sure?  I've got a cupcake here with your name on it...  



			
				tonym said:
			
		

> You are no longer a Nazgul in my analogy, though.  After your last post, you are now the Mouth of Sauron.




Movie version, or book version?  Because if it's the movie version, ewww....


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## tonym (Oct 24, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> I didn't notice anything snarky in this thread until you posted. I vote you ban yourself...




That was uncalled-for.  

Rel, ban IcyCool for forgetting his emoticon, and DimWit for not noting the critical absence of that emoticon.  Snarkiness and being an accessory to snarkiness should not be tolerated.

Me, I should get a "Get Out of Banned Free" card for bringing this to your attention.

 
Tony M


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## Rel (Oct 24, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> I'm not convinced you can ban people.
> Nobody would ever give _you_ that much power.




Trust me when I say that what gets me out of bed in the morning is that I get to immediately run to the computer and see if somebody has done something one ENWorld bad enough to earn a ban.  Yes I'm just this petty and vindictive.

As for why they would place such power in my hands, they needed somebody to play "Bad Mod" to their "Good Mods".


Oh and Dimwhit, I've talied your vote and as always it counts for NOTHING!

Muhahahahah!


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## tonym (Oct 24, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Are you sure?  I've got a cupcake here with your name on it...




Cupcake?  Frodo does not eat cupcake.  



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> Movie version, or book version?  Because if it's the movie version, ewww....




The movie version, as I don't remember the book version.

After your attempt to demoralize, I figured you were either Wormtongue or the Mouth of Sauron.  I picked Mouth.  You can be Wormtongue if you want, though.  

 
Tony M


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## tonym (Oct 24, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> Trust me when I say that what gets me out of bed in the morning is that I get to immediately run to the computer and see if somebody has done something one ENWorld bad enough to earn a ban.  Yes I'm just this petty and vindictive.
> 
> As for why they would place such power in my hands, they needed somebody to play "Bad Mod" to their "Good Mods".




Sir, your pro-Windows commentary and disturbing _lust for power_ has earned you the rank of Saruman in my LotR analogy.

 

Tony M


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## Dimwhit (Oct 24, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> That was uncalled-for.




Nah, not really. Rel's in love with me anyway, so he'll just see it as flirtation.


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## IcyCool (Oct 24, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> Sir, your pro-Windows commentary and disturbing _lust for power_ has earned you the rank of Saruman in my LotR analogy.




Some guys have all the luck ...


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## Simplicity (Oct 24, 2006)

Oh great, that probably leaves me as some stupid orc or something.

My apologies if my snark has gone too far. He sometimes gets out of hand, when I talk about the One Button to Rule Them All.



> I think the freedom from viruses is intrinsic to the OS.
> 
> Here is my thinking:
> 
> ...




I agree that Apple OS has some intrinsic security qualities.  I would say the same thing about Windows.  The only thing that I would consider a selling point between the two is the superiority of those security qualities.  I don't think Apple's instrinsic security is superior to Windows.  

To further your analogy: Just because a house is burning down, doesn't mean the fire alarm is worse than the one in the house next door that isn't on fire.  The arsonist might just really like to burn THAT house.

Apple OS does do security updates, but a lot of time it's shared code (when OpenSSL gets updated, you gotta update everything that uses it.  When a vulnerability in the GIF format is found, Windows and Apple need to jump on it). Windows does security updates as well.
Because the viruses often affect Windows machines, Windows tends to do more updates.

Unless bugs are being introduced by the updates (and they can often be), the Windows products should tend to grow more secure over time.  Apple security is just untried in battle, and until it becomes a target, it's capabilities are an unknown.  But I have no reason to believe that it's any better than Windows would have been BEFORE all the updates they've made in response to attacks.

Oh yeah.  GROG SMASH!  FIRE BURN!


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## Aurora (Oct 24, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> As for loving you, first you have to tell me I'm pretty.



Is that _all_ we have to do Rel?


----------



## Rel (Oct 24, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Nah, not really. Rel's in love with me anyway, so he'll just see it as flirtation.




It's time you were outed.  Dimwhit is only this poster's ENW username.  Elsewhere this person is known as 



Spoiler



Kate Beckinsale


. [End Spoiler]

So that explains my love and why I would never ban Dimwhit.


----------



## Rel (Oct 24, 2006)

Aurora said:
			
		

> Is that _all_ we have to do Rel?




Yep.  First taste is free, baby.


----------



## crybaby (Oct 24, 2006)

And that is all i have to say about that.


----------



## Dimwhit (Oct 24, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> It's time you were outed.  Dimwhit is only this poster's ENW username.  Elsewhere this person is known as
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You wish. Hey man, if thinking of me as Kate B. gets you through those late nights of yours, I'm cool with that. Just don't go misplacing your lust. You know where it belongs.


----------



## TogaMario (Oct 25, 2006)

If nothing else, this post was worth making for the Rel/Dimwhit battle of wits laced throughout.


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## Dimwhit (Oct 25, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> If nothing else, this post was worth making for the Rel/Dimwhit battle of wits laced throughout.



 Well, I've tried to engage in that battle the best I can. But as they say, you can't have a battle of wits with the witless. That's right, Rel, I'm lookin' at you.

(As yes, I realize the irony if that statement given my username.)


----------



## TogaMario (Oct 25, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Well, I've tried to engage in that battle the best I can. But as they say, you can't have a battle of wits with the witless. That's right, Rel, I'm lookin' at you.
> 
> (As yes, I realize the irony if that statement given my username.)




It's just a clever ruse?


----------



## Rel (Oct 25, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> It's just a clever ruse?




No it's more of a method of focusing your attention on his dimwittedness rather than his poopyheadedness.


----------



## Dimwhit (Oct 25, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> No it's more of a method of focusing your attention on his dimwittedness rather than his poopyheadedness.



 hush, little girl. Don't want your mom to hear that pottymouth of yours.


----------



## Aaron L (Oct 25, 2006)

I love you Rel!  And you're very pretty.



Ok, well... I remember using the old TRS-80's in Gifted back in elementary school, playing such legendaryu games as Telengard, Zork, and Boot Hill.  Damn those were cool.   I actually found a version of Telengard for PC that I play every so often, and it's still just as great as ever.  Bottomless dungeon, random mazes, and a character that casts magic missiles, healing spells, and fireballs, and wears armor and uses a sword!


You see a dragon... the dragon likes you!  He gives you an elven cloak +5!


I even liked the TRS-80's better than the Apple IIe's we had in high school.


----------



## TogaMario (Oct 25, 2006)

The game you described reminds me of "Dungeon Hack" ... one of most favorite of older DnD games. Randomly seeded dungeons (that I never survived through all the way to the bottom, so it might as well be bottomless), increasingly difficult as you go down, even a pretty good difficulty range to play through each time. Ahh, nostalgia.


----------



## Rel (Oct 25, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> hush, little girl. Don't want your mom to hear that pottymouth of yours.




That's odd.  Your mom LIKES it when I talk dirty...


----------



## dragonhead (Oct 25, 2006)

So what started this flame war?


----------



## Rel (Oct 25, 2006)

dragonhead said:
			
		

> So what started this flame war?




What flame war?


----------



## tonym (Oct 25, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> Oh great, that probably leaves me as some stupid orc or something.




Simplicity, after assaulting Frodo with your cold-blooded, multi-directional attack, forcing Frodo to flee a wee bit, you can't be an orc in my analogy.  Sorry.

You are the Watcher, the black squidlike creature in the pool outside Moria.

Frodo flees!
But Frodo lives!

 
Tony M


----------



## Rel (Oct 25, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> Simplicity, after assaulting Frodo with your cold-blooded, multi-directional attack, forcing Frodo to flee a wee bit, you can't be an orc in my analogy.  Sorry.
> 
> You are the Watcher, the black squidlike creature in the pool outside Moria.
> 
> ...




Are you trying to turn this thread into a Play By Post?


----------



## tonym (Oct 25, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> Are you trying to turn this thread into a Play By Post?




No, I'm using an analogy in an attempt to help all you Windows people see that Sauron (Bill Gates) is your master and that if Sauron has his way, Frodo will be killed and the Shire burned to the ground!  

It's a simple good versus evil thing.
     

Where is Frodo?  Is he dead?
No!  He's invisible!

Tony M


----------



## Dimwhit (Oct 25, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> That's odd.  Your mom LIKES it when I talk dirty...




Your mom told me she likes it when you talk dirty, too.


----------



## Rel (Oct 25, 2006)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Your mom told me she likes it when you talk dirty, too.




Well your mom told me I kiss better than you do.


----------



## Dimwhit (Oct 25, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> Well your mom told me I kiss better than you do.




Yeah, well, your momma's so fat, when she fell over, she rocked herself to sleep tryin to get back up again.

_This thread is officially dead..._


----------



## Simplicity (Oct 25, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> Simplicity, after assaulting Frodo with your cold-blooded, multi-directional attack, forcing Frodo to flee a wee bit, you can't be an orc in my analogy.  Sorry.
> 
> You are the Watcher, the black squidlike creature in the pool outside Moria.
> 
> ...




I can live with that.  
Beware of Simplicity!  My tentacles desire more buttons!!! Grraaaarr!!!
I have to admit... this particular chapter/scene has always bothered me a bit.
Because elven riddles written in Elvish are only hard if you try to answer them in Common.


----------

