# does a nice, shy, meek guy have a chance in hell?



## Aaron L (Nov 14, 2005)

i dont know what to do anymore.  i dont have any hope left of ever meeting anyone.  im 29 and have never had a girl even remotely attracted to me, despite going out and trying to meet people as much as i can.  ive been told im good looking.  ive been told im fun to be around.  ive been told im too nice.  i have no self confidence, but how do you have self confidence when you know that theres something so fundamentally repulsive about you to cause you to be 29 years old and never so much as kissed a woman?  ive tried asking people what i need to change abuot myself, and i never get a straight answer.  is it just that im nice, shy, meek, and polite, and these arent things that women want in a man?  my very personailty is just so unmanly that the very idea of a romantic relationship with me is a joke?  

i dont know what to do anymore.  ive lost all hope and dont have much to live for if this is how my life is going to be.  all ive ever wanted since i was a teenager was someone to love me, and ive never had anything even remotely resembling it.  i used to be able to hide behind roleplaying and smother my pain in games, but i dont even have that anymore, everyone i gamed with having decided im not worth the effort to even speak to anymore.  i post it here becuse i have no friends left, and no one i can talk too.  i dont expect any answers, because i know there arent any.  but the pain is just too much and i need to yell, or scream, or even just complain to someone.  so i drink and hope to fall asleep and sometimes wish i wouldnt wake up in the morning.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 14, 2005)

There is always a chance.  You are 29 and let me tell you, things change, you are out of those 20's which was the dating/party life, the period you are entering is different and means you need to be looking in other places...church is a hot spot for the single, same for community activities, you just have to get out there.  Never give up, never surrender!

You can change your life but you are the one that has to want to.  See a professional if you are depressed, see one just to talk.


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## Zander (Nov 14, 2005)

Don't despair! In general, what women want changes as they get older. In their teens and twenties, they tend toward good looking jocks. But as the biological clock ticks, women start to favour loyalty, generosity, reliability and kindness more, i.e. good husband material. You're approaching the age when women of a similar age will value you more.

It's true that women of all ages are attracted to confident men. To become more self-confident, remind yourself of several different ways in which you're better than other guys you know. Just because you haven't had any success with women in the past should not dent your confidence. Remember that guys who are too self-assured because of previous successes are often turn-offs to women in their late twenties onwards (it relates to the lack of reliability mentioned above).

The single greatest barrier to starting a relationship is your looks. If you make Jabba the Hutt look handsome then no woman is going to entertain taking a relationship with you further. But from what you say, you're good looking so you've got most of the problem resolved right there.

If the idea appeals, seek out women who are slightly older perhaps up to 35. And keep trying knowing that things are shifting in your favour.

Please keep posting. I think you'll get good advice on these boards (and not just from me). There are lots of caring people here.


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## DarrenGMiller (Nov 14, 2005)

It sounds like you are trying SO hard to get somebody, anybody, to love you, that your efforts may actually be driving those who may do so away.  Sometimes we try so hard to find a certain kind of relationship that we focus on it too intensely and it causes people to distance themselves, as they can read from us that we are way too single-minded and purposeful about it.  I relationship like that is not something you can force to happen.  It is not something you can focus on as hard aas it sounds like you are.  I know that is hard to accept, but you have to let go of it a little (or a let) in order for it to happen.  Find some other things to strive for in life (not just things to hide behind, as you are still going to give off that "I'm looking for love as hard as I can" vibe).  As hard as it is, put it out of mind.  That is the only way it is going to happen.  I am not saying to socially isolate yourself.  Just have fun with people and be a friend, even if there is no hope of a relationship.  Try to relax and not think about it.

Please, whatever else you do, speak to a professional about your depression.  Believe it or not, fixing the depression will help your prospects.  Don't say that the only way you are going to get over the depression is to find someone.  It doesn't work that way.  The only way you are going to find someone is to get the depression under control and find the joy in your life again.

I am wishing you the best, Aaron.

DM


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 14, 2005)

Aaron,

You've got a chance!

But listen to what Wolf says.  Depression is a real thing that finding a woman doesn't fix... You need to seek help for yourself before you seek someone else.  Speaking as someone with bipolar, I've been where you are - not for the same reasons as I am not seeking a woman (), but to the same end.

Other than that... you need to try to find someplace else to find confidence.  I can't tell you where, as I don't really know you - but it seems that you would be served well if you could rearrange your priorities a bit... find some way to define your existance that is *not* woman dependent.  A competitive hobby, maybe?  A puppy?

Lastly, as a woman, I'll say that through your posts, you seem like a loving, wonderful guy that just needs to find the right person... I know you're sick of waiting, but I can tell you this - once you find her (or she finds you), it will have been worth the wait.

Good luck.  ::hugs::

((Have you ever been to GenCon?  Might be a good place to meet that nice, shy, meek girl )).


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## Umbran (Nov 14, 2005)

Been there, done that... then found the gamer girl and got married to her.  

Which, of course, is a solid (if anecdotal) example that everyone has at least a chance.

However, be warned - finding a person to share your life with is not the be-all and end-all of the Universe.  I'm rather firmly of the belief that if you want a stable, permanent relationship, you need to be reasonably happy with your life _without_ a significant other.  If you aren't, you put an undue burden on that other person to make your life liveable.  And that's just not fair, and generally the person will tire of it, and yoru relationship will suffer.   

And, by the way, being basically happy with your life seems to be attractive to the ladies.


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## der_kluge (Nov 14, 2005)

Aaron, first I would recommend finding a therapist to discuss this with. It sounds like you are depressed, and even considering suicidal thoughts. That's not the answer, man. All that does is hurt the people who love you. There is help available. Seek it out. If you are depressed, that could be a big reason for why you are having such a hard time meeting people. It's an endless spiral - you are depressed, and depressed people aren't any fun to be around, so they don't hang out with you, which makes you more depressed, ad infinitum.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Nov 14, 2005)

I know a guy who's 35 and has never had a date.  Nice guy, a little squirrely, but a nice guy.  But then, he doesn't seem to try, either.  

There's an old southern rock song that goes "It'll shine when it shines."  Be patient.  Things will happen when they are meant to.

I actually have something of the reverse to your situation.  I'm getting divorced and at 42, the thought of dating makes me physically ill.  I've already have several folks try to fix me up, and a couple of female friends with whom I've enjoyed wonderful platonic relationships have come forward to tell me they've "been attracted to me but didn't say anything because I was married."  I'm so not interested in dating or anything related to it now.  Trust me; I'm no stud-boy.  I'm a middle aged fatbeard.  But I'm a nice guy who tries to treat people with respect.  Evidently it pays off.


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## devilbat (Nov 14, 2005)

I'm going to stay away from your depression and self confidence issues, because others have mentioned them, and you already seem to know that you have them.

I don't know your habits and hobbies, so I'll generalize.  If one's activities are limited to gaming and Anime, you are severly limiting yourself to interactions with women.  Take a cooking class, join a singles club, check out lava life, start going to church, etc...  Find things to do, that will not only help you interact with new people, but will also add to your life in a positive way.  A well rounded individual is more attractive to the opposite sex.  WHat I tell my single gaming friends is "Have a shower, put on some cologne, and get the hell out of the basement".  You will not meet a mate by doing the same things that haven't worked for the last ten years.




> im nice, shy, meek, and polite, and these arent things that women want in a man?




While these are qualities (minus the meek) that I hope are prevelant in the men my daughters marry, I know most young women seem to be attracted to the confident (cocky?), outgoing (brash?) and exciting (idiot?) type of guys.  I keep telling my 16 year old sister.  Forget the jocks, the nerds have futures, while most jocks end up witha  broken marriage and a beer gut.  Just like me  .


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 14, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> is it just that im nice, shy, meek, and polite, and these arent things that women want in a man?




Forgive my bluntness, but the answer to that question is no: women don't want a nice guy.  Speaking from both personal experience as well as from listening to stories told to me by friends, family members, and other EN Worlders, it's become clear to me that while women everywhere claim that they're looking for a "nice guy", in reality they will go for guys to are very confident in themselves, somewhat arrogant, and a bit of a jerk.  Seldom have more true words ever been spoken than "nice guys finish last."

This dosen't mean that you have to completely change your personality, but when you're trying to impress women, act as though it's impossible for you to fail.  Don't hang on her every word or be an ass kisser.  Don't be afraid to disagree with her on things.  And above all else, don't come across as desperate.


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## DaveMage (Nov 14, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> However, be warned - finding a person to share your life with is not the be-all and end-all of the Universe.  I'm rather firmly of the belief that if you want a stable, permanent relationship, you need to be reasonably happy with your life _without_ a significant other.  If you aren't, you put an undue burden on that other person to make your life liveable.  And that's just not fair, and generally the person will tire of it, and yoru relationship will suffer.




Quoted for truth.


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## BiggusGeekus (Nov 14, 2005)

Hi guy!

1) As others have said, you should probably seek professional help.  Nothing wrong in this. If you had a broken arm, you'd go to a doctor, right?  So if you have a broken sense of self, a doctor is still in order.

2) Don't look for love right out of the gate.  You're probably going to have to have a few relationships just to get an idea of what you need and want.  Trust me, a lot of guys have settled for "anything" only to end up with a woman who used that need for her own ends (one dude I used to work with let his girlfriend in on his mortgage.  He spent the next five years getting out of debt after she dumped him).  So, concentrate on just dating.  Just like D&D, you wouldn't send a 1st level character after a level 15 challenge, right?  Start out small and casual.

3) Work out.  I can not stress the benefits of an exercise program enough.  You will look better.  You will feel better.  You will have a hobby outside of computers and D&D that you can talk to people about.  Focus and you'll be surprised at the results.  A year from now you'll be juggling anvils or running marathons!  I have seen many, many body transformatations that are simply amazing.  In my own case, I went from blobbo,to Charles Atlas, and back to blobbo.  Gotta get that Charles Atlas thing going again.....

4) After you have found a therapist you like.  After you've realized you won't solve these problems in a day by bumping into "just anyone".  After you've cranked up your exercise program ... join a co-ed sports team.  I reccomend softball or volleyball.  Don't do it to meet girls.  Do it to meet people.  A lot of these people won't really be your type, but that's OK.  You'll be doing something physical with other people and that always leads to conversations.  A conversation with some shallow tie-wearing guy can always lead to a conversation with a nice young lady, or at least it will give you practice.

Good luck man!


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## Rel (Nov 14, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> This dosen't mean that you have to completely change your personality, but when you're trying to impress women, act as though it's impossible for you to fail.  Don't hang on her every word or be an ass kisser.  Don't be afraid to disagree with her on things.  And above all else, don't come across as desperate.




Ditto.  As I said in a recent thread on a similar topic:

"Don't treat her like a princess unless you want to be treated like a serf."


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## The Shaman (Nov 14, 2005)

*Aaron L*, I believe you've answered your own question already.

*Q:* Do women want a nice, shy, meek guy?
*A:* You're twenty-nine and never had a relationship with a woman, so your experience should tell you that the answer is, "Probably not."

You can hold out doing what you're doing in the hopes of finding someone who will "accept you for who you are" (code words for "I'm too indifferent/scared to risk change"), or you can try something else. I strongly recommend the latter - some good suggestions have already been offered.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Nov 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Ditto.  As I said in a recent thread on a similar topic:
> 
> "Don't treat her like a princess unless you want to be treated like a serf."




Trueness.  

However, one CAN be a nice guy and meet women.  The trick is to balance respect and self confidence.  People are attracted to confidence.  People are attracted to those who respect themselves and others.  But don't go so far as to become a doormat.  Respect the feelings and beliefs of others, but don't compromise your own.

Works for me.  Like a charm.
_
**DMCal, who has been called an anomaly by Teflon Billy for this.**_


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## Rel (Nov 14, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Trueness.
> 
> However, one CAN be a nice guy and meet women.  The trick is to balance respect and self confidence.  People are attracted to confidence.  People are attracted to those who respect themselves and others.  But don't go so far as to become a doormat.  Respect the feelings and beliefs of others, but don't compromise your own.
> 
> ...




I don't advocate treating women like crap (and I don't think TB truly does either).  But you can't place their needs ahead of your own all the time without putting yourself in a subservient position in the relationship.  

Plenty of time for that later when you're married.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Nov 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Plenty of time for that later when you're married.




*snicker*


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## fusangite (Nov 14, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> ive lost all hope and dont have much to live for if this is how my life is going to be.  all ive ever wanted since i was a teenager was someone to love me, and ive never had anything even remotely resembling it.



This is your problem right here. I'm four years older than you are and only slightly less of a romantic failure. The point is, though, that life is worth living, beautiful and meaningful even if you never find a girlfriend. Because I've been approaching my "ten years single" anniversary lately, I've been feeling more like you than I usually do. However, over all, in the past several years, despite my days of having a girlfriend receding behind me with no new partner in sight, my life has got steadily better each year. I am fitter, more financially secure and happier than I have been in a long time -- moreso, even, than I was for much of my relationship.

The first problem you need to solve has nothing to do with finding a date; you have to confront the ugly possibility that you may never find a girlfriend and build a life that is worth living in spite of that. Life can be beautiful, meaningful and enjoyable, full of friends and good times even if you die a virgin. Get back to work on your depression problems with new tools like anti-depressants, counselling, exercise, a better diet and, most importantly, expand and deepen your network of friendships. Some people will tell you that you should do this because doing this will make you more attractive; it hasn't worked out that way for me; but it was nevertheless worth doing because I love my life, even if I can only share it with my friends and relatives.







> ive been told im too nice.  i have no self confidence, but how do you have self confidence when you know that theres something so fundamentally repulsive about you to cause you to be 29 years old and never so much as kissed a woman?



Be prepared for a bunch of stupid responses to this statement. I used to ask for advice and help with confidence-building strategies. But every single exchange I've had about it is basically, 
"Can you help me be more self-confident?" 
"Yeah -- nobody will be attracted to you if you're not self-confident."
"I know. That's why I need to figure out a confidence-building strategy."
"Yeah. You have to learn to be confident."
"I know. How do I do that?"
"Stop being difficult. If you're not confident, nobody will date you."
Etc.
Don't even try asking people for help with this in this forum. Most people are self-confident because their self-image is not empirically-grounded. They assume they have a worth or value totally independent of what others think of them. Clearly this is a healthy, if inaccurate, way to think. You sound like someone who bases his opinions on evidence. So, naturally, the more times you are rejected, the less value you feel you have because there is an ever-increasing mass of empirical evidence telling you that you are unworthy as a romantic partner. 

And although people go on about how women's priorities change over time, I don't really buy it. My landlady, at the age of 61, just dumped a guy who was stupid and narcissitic. Why? Not because he was as dumb as a rock and incapable of talking about anything other than himself but because he was not self-confident enough. 

To quote a self help book aphorism/poem my mother used to read to herself, "Don't wait for someone to bring you flowers. Plant your own garden." Buy some more porn and start planning for a fulfilling and meaningful single life.







> ive tried asking people what i need to change abuot myself, and i never get a straight answer.  is it just that im nice, shy, meek, and polite, and these arent things that women want in a man? my very personailty is just so unmanly that the very idea of a romantic relationship with me is a joke?



Yep. You're perceptive and clever. Those attributes won't help you either.







> i dont know what to do anymore.  i used to be able to hide behind roleplaying and smother my pain in games, but i dont even have that anymore, everyone i gamed with having decided im not worth the effort to even speak to anymore.  i post it here becuse i have no friends left, and no one i can talk too.



How did you lose your friends? This sounds to me like your real problem. I think you focused on the female companionship thing in your post because you know it has a track record of getting lots of attention on ENWorld whereas having no friends, a much more serious problem, doesn't. 







> i dont expect any answers, because i know there arent any.  but the pain is just too much and i need to yell, or scream, or even just complain to someone.  so i drink and hope to fall asleep and sometimes wish i wouldnt wake up in the morning.



Glad we could at least function as a sounding board. My immediate advice: call one of your old friends and invite them to go drinking with you.


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## Rel (Nov 14, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Be prepared for a bunch of stupid responses to this statement. I used to ask for advice and help with confidence-building strategies. But every single exchange I've had about it is basically,
> "Can you help me be more self-confident?"
> "Yeah -- nobody will be attracted to you if you're not self-confident."
> "I know. That's why I need to figure out a confidence-building strategy."
> ...




I agree that "be confident" is not very helpful advice.  I'll give you something concrete and you can decide whether it is stupid or not:

*A risk where you have nothing to lose is not a risk.*

That's what approaching a woman is about.  You have nothing and stand to gain everything.  There is no deal so sweet in all the universe as that.  Confidence is not the notion that you'll win every encounter with womankind.  Confidence is knowing that you'll SURVIVE FAILURE and try again.

"But," you say, "this prospect terrifies me."  Terrifies you more than what?!  More than the self-loathing and fear of being alone your whole life and knowing that you've done nothing to deserve otherwise?  I am familiar with self-loathing and there is NOTHING worse that I can imagine.  Do you think that other guys aren't afraid when they put themselves out there and strike up a conversation with a woman?  But they do it anyway because that's how you get past the fear and eventually how you find somebody to share this crazy life with.

If you see an attractive woman, and if she's not wearing a shirt that says, "Womyn Rule, Men Suk!" while holding an operational chain saw, then get your ass over there and talk to her.  And then when she turns you down and sends you away, go home and feel the depression of being shot down instead of the far worse feeling that you never even tried.  Then get up the next morning and go do it again.  And again.  Until you get a date.  And when that relationship fails in its infancy go do it again.

Fail.  Fail often and gloriously until you understand that failure means nothing.

You are NOT special and if you think that this cruel universe is just going to hand you the perfect relationship with no effort or hardship on your part then you're playing a game with long odds.  If you're going to play those odds then buy a lotto ticket too.  And when you win then have a t-shirt with your net worth on it printed for every day of the week.  Because that's the only other way that you're going to land chicks if you won't make the effort.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 14, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Trueness.
> 
> However, one CAN be a nice guy and meet women.  The trick is to balance respect and self confidence.  People are attracted to confidence.  People are attracted to those who respect themselves and others.  But don't go so far as to become a doormat.  Respect the feelings and beliefs of others, but don't compromise your own.
> 
> ...



Old quote: "_Never place a person on a pedestal, they end up looking down on you_".


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> i dont know what to do anymore.  i dont have any hope left of ever meeting anyone.  im 29 and have never had a girl even remotely attracted to me, despite going out and trying to meet people as much as i can.  ive been told im good looking.  ive been told im fun to be around.  ive been told im too nice.  i have no self confidence, but how do you have self confidence when you know that theres something so fundamentally repulsive about you to cause you to be 29 years old and never so much as kissed a woman?  ive tried asking people what i need to change abuot myself, and i never get a straight answer.  is it just that im nice, shy, meek, and polite, and these arent things that women want in a man?  my very personailty is just so unmanly that the very idea of a romantic relationship with me is a joke?
> 
> i dont know what to do anymore.  ive lost all hope and dont have much to live for if this is how my life is going to be.  all ive ever wanted since i was a teenager was someone to love me, and ive never had anything even remotely resembling it.  i used to be able to hide behind roleplaying and smother my pain in games, but i dont even have that anymore, everyone i gamed with having decided im not worth the effort to even speak to anymore.  i post it here becuse i have no friends left, and no one i can talk too.  i dont expect any answers, because i know there arent any.  but the pain is just too much and i need to yell, or scream, or even just complain to someone.  so i drink and hope to fall asleep and sometimes wish i wouldnt wake up in the morning.




oh man.  i was heading down this path myself, until about my mid-20s.  i'm glad i didn't let it get that far, though.  i had some very limited success with girls around the age of 25, mostly stumbling around where i didn't know where i was going.

all i can tell you is that i didn't meet my wife until i realized that i did not need a woman to be happy with myself.   giving up on worrying about that took a ton of pressure off, and when we met *she* was the nervous one, not me.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I agree that "be confident" is not very helpful advice.  I'll give you something concrete and you can decide whether it is stupid or not:
> 
> *A risk where you have nothing to lose is not a risk.*
> 
> ...




As usual, Rel hits the nail right on the head.

In your attempts to find a mate, you _will_ be rejected by a fair share of women.  Some will already have boyfriends or husbands, while others simply won't be interested.  Yes, rejection sucks, but the brief period of disappointment you'll feel from being turned down is insignificant compared to the shame you'll feel if you never even try.  If a girl you ask out says no or says that she considers you a "good friend", forget about her and look for someone else.  Don't continue trying to win her over after she's turned you down because that almost _never_ works, and the odds are that you'll just end up looking like a loser at best or a creepy stalker at worst.

And even when you do find women to go out with you, it's almost certain that you'll have a few relationships that simply won't work out.  New relationships are usually based on physical attraction more than anything else, and often when one person in the relationship spends a little time with the other and learns more about their personality, they discover that they really aren't as interested in the other person as they thought.  Still, if you hang in there and don't give up, your efforts will eventually pay off.


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## Einan (Nov 14, 2005)

Some platitutudes that worked for me:

Faint heart never won fair maiden.
Fake it until you make it.

The first is what I told (tell) myself everytime I am faced with a risk that I'm not sure if I want to take.  It's gotten me a lovely wife, a great job and success I could have never hoped for.  The second is a sold confidence building strategy: fake it.  Think of a what a confident, successful person would do when faced with your situation and do that.  Pretty soon the faking goes away and you realise confidence is only a careful knowledge of what you can do and a committment to go beyond that.

And chicks dig guys that can make them laugh.  Never be afraid to make a fool of yourself for love.  It's the only thing worth risking everything for.

Einan


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## was (Nov 14, 2005)

I'd say yes, but with a qualifier.  From my experiences, men are still generally expected to make the first move.  Chances are, that unless you are willing to take a few risks, the women you will end up dating will be those that are more aggressive.  It's up to you to decide whether or not that works for you.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Nov 14, 2005)

Einan said:
			
		

> And chicks dig guys that can make them laugh.  Never be afraid to make a fool of yourself for love.  It's the only thing worth risking everything for.




I agree..... if you can make a woman laugh a lot and laugh hard, you're in.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 14, 2005)

Einan said:
			
		

> And chicks dig guys that can make them laugh.  Never be afraid to make a fool of yourself for love.  It's the only thing worth risking everything for.




Good advice, just try to be careful that the bulk of your jokes aren't self-depreciating.  If your attempts at humor always come across as subtle self-pity, it can actually turn off women instead of endearing you to them.


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## Andok (Nov 14, 2005)

Aaron, I’m going to repeat what many others have already stated –

You will never find a long-term loving relationship with a woman until you learn to love yourself (as a man without a woman).

I don’t know enough about you to suggest how to do that, but here’s some things you might want to try:

- Further your education
- Improve your career (work for a promotion or get a more fulfilling job)
- Go to church
- Get in better shape 
- Update your look (hair, cloths, etc)
- Join a social group that has nothing to do with gaming (try Toastmasters to improve your communication skills)


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## Rel (Nov 14, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Good advice, just try to be careful that the bulk of your jokes aren't self-depreciating.  If your attempts at humor always come across as subtle self-pity, it can actually turn off women instead of endearing you to them.




I tried always making my jokes about boobs.

That helped to offend-away all the chicks that were too uptight for me to want to date anyway.


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## reveal (Nov 14, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> i have no self confidence...




If this is true, no, you don't have a chance in hell.


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## fusangite (Nov 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> *A risk where you have nothing to lose is not a risk.*



Funny. I just helped my mother write a speech for a college graduation she was asked to address based around this exact theme. There's a great John Milton quote on this to the effect of 'there is no such thing as an untested virtue.'







> That's what approaching a woman is about.  You have nothing and stand to gain everything.  There is no deal so sweet in all the universe as that.  Confidence is not the notion that you'll win every encounter with womankind.  Confidence is knowing that you'll SURVIVE FAILURE and try again.



Going by that definition, I am a very confident man. I set a minimum annual rejection quota for myself which I have met or exceeded every year for the past 5 years. I make sure that I risk rejection on a regular basis, based, precisely, on this understanding. For instance, I have been rejected by four women since September 15th just this year -- that's one every 2 weeks.







> Do you think that other guys aren't afraid when they put themselves out there and strike up a conversation with a woman?



I think all people are afraid in these situations; I'm not positing a qualitative difference between sexually successful and sexually unsuccessful groups of men; I'm positing a quantitative one. Women will naturally gravitate towards the men who display the least anxiety; I happen to, through non-verbal, coded verbal and tone-based signals, all outside my direct real-time conscious control, to display a significantly above average level of anxiety. 

Some people are just like that; their brains are wired to make them a little more anxious. In present day society, where social confidence is especially prized over wealth, strength and other, more traditionally important attractants, people who have less inherent talent in managing social anxiety find themselves at the bottom of the heap when it comes to dating. I'm not especially resentful of this; my brain may screw me when it comes to over-producing certain neurotransmitters but, on the other hand, I benefit intellectually, socially and professionally in other ways from my neurological makeup.







> But they do it anyway because that's how you get past the fear and eventually how you find somebody to share this crazy life with.



I have practiced this theory very successfully in other areas of my life. But I think there is a key difference when it comes to dating, however. There are lots of fears where you can perform just fine, in spite of anxiety, because your task is something other than "don't be anxious." For instance, someone can succeed at giving a speech, even though they are nervous because people can still appreciate a good speech given by a nervous person. Similarly, non-romantic social interactions can still be successful even though one or both parties appears nervous; it is possible for women to like men non-romantically, even though they are nervous; but in the romantic arena, this simply is not the case.

For this reason, I would suggest there are two classes of activity for looking at confidence building through flooding/exposure: (a) those activities where one can succeed despite being exceptionally anxious and (b) those activities in which it is impossible to succeed if one is exceptionally anxious. Most activities such as non-romantic social interaction, public speaking, etc. fall into category (a); however, a small minority of activities like dating and swimming fall into category (b).







> Fail.  Fail often and gloriously until you understand that failure means nothing.



Are you secretly corresponding with my mom or reading my outgoing e-mails? You're directly quoting the speech I wrote. 


> You are NOT special and if you think that this cruel universe is just going to hand you the perfect relationship with no effort or hardship on your part then you're playing a game with long odds.



These are wise words. I agree with them. But I think that people are allowed to be exceptionally incompetent at certain things, just as we are allowed to be recognized as exceptionally competent at others. I'm not giving up, nor am I advising Aaron to do so. I will continue meeting or exceeding my rejection quota every year, mainly because, as you point out, not trying often leads to escalating feelings of self-loathing and despair. That pent-up energy has to go somewhere. 

But I think it is a real mistake to tell Aaron that if he keeps trying he will eventually succeed because (a) he will continue expecting that happiness is something that will come to him from an external source rather than something that will come from within himself and (b) not everybody who tries does make it in the end; I know it's a big part of American national mythology to peddle that idea but it's just not true; what Aaron wants is worth working for but not something that is guaranteed to people as some kind of entitled payoff for hard work.







> If you're going to play those odds then buy a lotto ticket too.  And when you win then have a t-shirt with your net worth on it printed for every day of the week.  Because that's the only other way that you're going to land chicks if you won't make the effort.



Rel, Rel buddy -- it's me! It's me! Ignore the strawman, talk to me.


----------



## fusangite (Nov 14, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> If this is true, no, you don't have a chance in hell.



I say it here. It comes out there.


----------



## FickleGM (Nov 14, 2005)

Wow, I think that Rel and Teflon Billy should start a business with the sorts of common sense advice that I've seen on these boards.

Anyway, I'll second the need to get out there and get shot down.  Like everything in life, practice will help you get better.

Borrowing from Rel's lead, I've also had a few pieces of good advice from my father (sadly, he died just before I turned 18, so my younger brothers missed out on some of it - it isn't the same coming from an older brother):

"You can't catch any fish if your line isn't in the water" - get out there and try.

"Women aren't an object of desire, they are people and like to be talked to as such" - get to know them, be their friend, stop drooling.

"Punch him square in the nose and he'll think twice." - oops, that one may not apply here  

Oh my, I almost forgot another one - not my dad's, but good advice from a Tae-Kwon-Do instructor: "You don't learn as much by winning as you do by losing.  Get your butt kicked a few times and you will learn what you need to do if you want to prevent it in the future." - a fighting analogy, but it is applicable to many areas of life.


----------



## LostSoul (Nov 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> And then when she turns you down and sends you away, go home and feel the depression of being shot down instead of the far worse feeling that you never even tried.  Then get up the next morning and go do it again.  And again.  Until you get a date.  And when that relationship fails in its infancy go do it again.




I'm going to say that I don't think this is great advice.

There are times when the pain from failure is worse than the pain from not trying.  All you do is reinforce your own idea that you are going to fail, and the more times it happens the stronger that idea gets, and that makes failure more probable, repeat.

I'd suggest starting off small.  I think AA has some kind of rule about not dating for a long time after you get sober.  The idea is to get comfortable with yourself first.  That's what you gotta do.

So take some small risks (whatever those risks are for you - maybe it's just going for a walk, maybe it's climbing a mountain) and start off there.  Once you get used to failing - and succeeding - at something, your confidence will grow to the point where you can try things you couldn't before.  Then you can build a self-reinforcing pattern that builds and builds confidence until you are able to do the things you want (and when you get there, I'll bet you'll be surprised that women won't be such a big deal).

This will take a long time even if you work really hard at it.  Figure about a year if you're in therapy, more if you're not.  The only good thing is that you will be able to see things getter better - not over the days, or even the weeks, but month-to-month things will improve.  A journal would help you actually take notice of the progress you're making that you'd normally ignore, since you spend all of your time with yourself and the changes are so gradual that you won't notice it until something big happens.


----------



## Rel (Nov 14, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> For this reason, I would suggest there are two classes of activity for looking at confidence building through flooding/exposure: (a) those activities where one can succeed despite being exceptionally anxious and (b) those activities in which it is impossible to succeed if one is exceptionally anxious. Most activities such as non-romantic social interaction, public speaking, etc. fall into category (a); however, a small minority of activities like dating and swimming fall into category (b).




Why are you so anxious after all these years?  You're no newb at this rejection gig, fusangite.  You've been (by your own admission) being rejected for YEARS.  What's so special about the next girl that makes the prospect of her rejecting you more than boring?  I'm not suggesting that being jaded is more attractive than being anxious...wait, yes I am.

It falls well within the Teflon Billy rules that if your approach to a woman says that you really don't much give a rip whether she shows interest or not, your attractiveness goes up by an order of magnitude.  Maybe you're simply too in awe of your targets (or the image of them that you've built up in your mind) to pull this off.  If so then your solution is simple.  You need to set your sights lower.

I've often said (though rarely around my wife) that if I had it to do all over again, I'd have dated (and probably slept with) a lot more marginally attractive girls when I was back in high school.  I've learned about myself as I've gotten older that I find most women attractive.  Not all girls are knockouts but I tend to see their best features and not notice their less attractive ones so much.

Back in the day, I would fixate on these beautiful, unobtainable girls for the longest time.  I had no clue that so many "average" girls were sitting home alone on Friday nights being miserable and desperate (like me).  And horny (like me).  What an amazing untapped (ahem) resource!

My point is this:  If you wish to lower your percentage of rejection (from where it stands presently at 100%) then approach women who aren't so used to rejecting guys.  Were I in your position I'd probably join a dating service.  Go on bunches of dates.  Go until it's boring and you dread the next one.  Voila!  You've achieved desensitization!  You no longer give a damn and suddenly you become a hot item.



> But I think it is a real mistake to tell Aaron that if he keeps trying he will eventually succeed because (a) he will continue expecting that happiness is something that will come to him from an external source rather than something that will come from within himself and (b) not everybody who tries does make it in the end; I know it's a big part of American national mythology to peddle that idea but it's just not true; what Aaron wants is worth working for but not something that is guaranteed to people as some kind of entitled payoff for hard work.




I don't think I said that it was guaranteed to pay off.  Only that if you don't try then it's guaranteed NOT to pay off.



> Rel, Rel buddy -- it's me! It's me! Ignore the strawman, talk to me.




The lottery thing was not a strawman so much as an analogy.  My point is there are (at least) two ways to get rich:  Work for it or win the lottery.  One method has a higher rate of success than the other.


For the record, I feel very invested in your success or failure because you were one of my favorite ENWorlders before I met you and meeting you at GenCon only made me like you more.  And that's not just because you let me help you kill that bottle of Scotch.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Nov 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> And that's not just because you let me help you kill that bottle of Scotch.




Maybe Fusangite can try that for his next quota-meeting-attempt....


----------



## Scotley (Nov 14, 2005)

Okay, how about some concrete suggestions in no particular order: 

Address what sounds like a case of depression. Most docs hand out anti-depressants like candy; although, I suspect some therapy might be helpful. 

Build your skills--a google search will reveal many 'how to be successful with women' suggestions as well as books, videos and so forth. Its an oldie, but a goodie--read 'How to win friends and influence people' by Dale Carnegie. I don't know what you do for a living, but perhaps your job will pay you to take some one and two day courses on dealing with people and/or sales. 

As others have said, change your hobbies. Go back to school. get involved with a church. Find a volunteer organization that is popular with women and spend some time there. 

Stop trying to find that lifelong partner. I swear women can smell despiration and it turns them off. If you meet a women and start trying to name your kids before you even go out she's going to sense that. Set a modest goal of just going out on a date.

Try online dating services. You must see ads for several every day if you check your inbox and surf the web. 

As others have said look at your life and start trying to build something good without a partner. 

If you try all that and still don't have success, take a trip to Nevada or Amsterdam (where it is legal) and seek professional help. Get over that physical hurdle of saying to yourself 'I've never even been kissed.' A good romp might be good for your confidence as well. 

Good luck! One final thing, you are not alone. I know several people male and female with similar situations. I also know several people who thought they had found what you are looking for only to have it end in messy divorce or break up. Count yourself lucky that you don't have some evil vindictive ex out there somewhere taking a third of your income. I didn't get married until my 30's and now have a wonderful wife three kids, a house, and the adoration of more pets than I can count.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Nov 14, 2005)

I am in the same boat (29, single, hopeless romantic). I have faith that I will not live my life w/o someone to share my love with.


----------



## Rel (Nov 14, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I am in the same boat (29, single, hopeless romantic). I have faith that I will not live my life w/o someone to share my love with.




And how many women have you asked out on a date this month?


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Nov 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> And how many women have you asked out on a date this month?



Two.


----------



## Rel (Nov 14, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Two.




And?


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Nov 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> And?



Well, I have a developing friendship with Mindy, but I got shot down by Rebecca.


----------



## Rel (Nov 15, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Well, I have a developing friendship with Mindy, but I got shot down by Rebecca.




0 for 2, huh?  Tough month.


----------



## Mimic (Nov 15, 2005)

There is a big difference between an actual nice guy and the typical "nice guy"

Check out this small story to see the difference.

Actually take some time to read the site, it excells in telling you what an emotionally stable, confident women wants in a man.

Warning though there are swear words galore, these ladies don't beat around the bush.


----------



## Viking Bastard (Nov 15, 2005)

Thank you Mimic for that link. 

Very. Much.

I have people to send that too.

People in need of arsekickin'.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 15, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> But I think it is a real mistake to tell Aaron that if he keeps trying he will eventually succeed because (a) he will continue expecting that happiness is something that will come to him from an external source rather than something that will come from within himself and (b) not everybody who tries does make it in the end; I know it's a big part of American national mythology to peddle that idea but it's just not true; what Aaron wants is worth working for but not something that is guaranteed to people as some kind of entitled payoff for hard work.Rel, Rel buddy -- it's me! It's me! Ignore the strawman, talk to me.




I see it like this: 

1) The statement "You'll succeed if you keep trying" is not equivalent to "it'll fall into your lap".  The trying implies work on his part.

2)It is true that he may not succeed - either with a particular lady or in general.  There's no mathematical certainty to romance.  However, if he does not proceed as if he will succeed eventually, then he is doomed to always fail.  

And, honestly, if he does his work right, and is actually a good person, then his chances are pretty good in the long run.  Humankind has been doing this for aeons, after all.  It seems like a great mystery, but it's also about the most natural thing in the world...


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Nov 15, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Trueness.
> 
> However, one CAN be a nice guy and meet women.  The trick is to balance respect and self confidence.  People are attracted to confidence.  People are attracted to those who respect themselves and others.  But don't go so far as to become a doormat.  Respect the feelings and beliefs of others, but don't compromise your own.
> 
> ...




I can agree with this.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Nov 15, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> I agree..... if you can make a woman laugh a lot and laugh hard, you're in.




I have a friend who's good at getting me to laugh at stuff and then say that it "made ya laugh".... He's not an open, emotional guy but he's funny to be around. And that counts for alot.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Nov 15, 2005)

From an email I got:



> Many people, in seeking out love, tend to look outward rather than inward. Yet falling in love with yourself can be just as wonderful an experience as falling in love with someone else. While the idea of falling in love with ourselves may be perceived as conceited or selfish, choosing to fall in love with who you are is a powerful act of self-love.
> 
> When you fall in love with yourself, you can't help but experience a wonderful sense of discovery. You begin to look at yourself again through fresh eyes, becoming more attentive to the little details that make you so unique. Once you discover how much there is about you to fall in love with, you can't help but want to treat yourself as lovingly and respectfully as you would treat anyone who is special to you. You start to give to yourself more because you become more attentive to your own needs and desires.
> 
> ...


----------



## FickleGM (Nov 15, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> I see it like this:
> 
> 1) The statement "You'll succeed if you keep trying" is not equivalent to "it'll fall into your lap".  The trying implies work on his part.
> 
> ...




I have to agree here.  I used to be a lap dog chasing girls as if they were goddesses (in fact, my wife still makes fun of me about the girl who I was chasing when she first noticed me).  Many times, the woman will not let you know that they are interested.  My wife is a perfect example of that.  I flirted with her and she reacted in the same way as many women who I thought were interested, but refused my advances (they were either being nice or liked me as a friend).  So, if I hadn't taken a chance at being shot down, I would never have dated and eventually married my wife.

So, go out - flirt - have fun - ask for a phone number - ask if she wants something to eat - ask if she wants to dance (if you can dance, that is, I avoid that one) - ask if she wants to shoot pool.  Whatever, just try and socialize.  Going out to eat is often safe type of initial date (it doesn't even have to be called a date).  It gives you a chance to get to know her and her to get to know you, but keeps you in a safe public place (some women don't want to go on certain dates with people that they just meet).  If things go well, then you can pursue a relationship.  If things don't go well, then you can learn from the experience - did you do something wrong, was she the problem, was there no connection, etc.

Good Luck and Keep Your Chin Up -


----------



## Impeesa (Nov 15, 2005)

Only one man can help you now.








--Impeesa--


----------



## Aus_Snow (Nov 15, 2005)

Mimic said:
			
		

> There is a big difference between an actual nice guy and the typical "nice guy"



Now, that is true.




> Check out this small story to see the difference.
> 
> Actually take some time to read the site, it excells in telling you what an emotionally stable, confident women wants in a man.



To me, much of that that site reads just like so many other 'intrawebb gozpel truthz!1!!one!!!eleven!', which bear a striking resemblance to 'glossy magazine gospel truths'. Uncanny. 



As to the original question though, "[D]oes a nice, shy, meek guy have a chance in hell?", I have seen IRL that 'Hell Yes!' is the correct answer.

Only a week ago I attended the wedding of two very nice, shy and rather meek friends of mine (they'd been together for a few years prior). They are both quiet, inobtrusive, introspective, intelligent and thoroughly likeable - to a fault, some might say. They love reading, thinking. . . primarily those kinds of activity. Loud parties, cigarette smoke, alcohol, sport etc. - these are all big turnoffs for them.

Does that answer your question?


----------



## Dark Jezter (Nov 15, 2005)

Impeesa said:
			
		

> Only one man can help you now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Sir, I salute your Photoshop-fu.


----------



## fusangite (Nov 15, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> For the record, I feel very invested in your success or failure because you were one of my favorite ENWorlders before I met you and meeting you at GenCon only made me like you more. And that's not just because you let me help you kill that bottle of Scotch.



Thanks. That was a good time. Only nine months to go until we get to do it again (sadly, of course, that will also mark the end of the Year of Rel). And regarding the favourite people I've met through ENWorld, right back at you! People are coming from the 416 area code, looking forward to meeting you based on my recommendation. The lesbians quote has been shared with many.







> Why are you so anxious after all these years? You're no newb at this rejection gig, fusangite. You've been (by your own admission) being rejected for YEARS. What's so special about the next girl that makes the prospect of her rejecting you more than boring? I'm not suggesting that being jaded is more attractive than being anxious...wait, yes I am.



It's a good question. I don't have a solid answer for this one. But the fact that I can't adequately explain it doesn't make it less true. I could theorize wildly (the main thing I do around here) and suggest that flooding as a method for neutralizing phobias usually involves showing people that something good can come from facing their fear, not just that something non-lethal can come from it. Being rejected is bad; it's just not as bad as a bunch of other things. From what I've read about consistent exposure to fears like water or heights, usually flooding strategies are centred around achieving some positive objective not just not dying.







> Maybe you're simply too in awe of your targets (or the image of them that you've built up in your mind) to pull this off. If so then your solution is simple. You need to set your sights lower.
> 
> I've often said (though rarely around my wife) that if I had it to do all over again, I'd have dated (and probably slept with) a lot more marginally attractive girls when I was back in high school. I've learned about myself as I've gotten older that I find most women attractive. Not all girls are knockouts but I tend to see their best features and not notice their less attractive ones so much.



Same here. As one ages, the world just seems more and more full of beautiful women; doesn't it? But it appears that women who are 30lbs overweight and never dress nicely don't have, as far as I can tell, any different assessment of my attractiveness than hot 105lb 19 year olds. As I observed about my landlady in my first post, no matter how desperate a woman is, self-confidence does seem to be a pretty universal deal-breaker.







> Were I in your position I'd probably join a dating service.



I did that 3 years ago. Gone out with a bunch of fat chicks, and a couple who were not, one of whom things actually looked promising with for a week or two. Or at least that was the case until a year ago. Standards seem to have risen dramatically; now women won't continue to correspond with me after 2 or more iterations of e-mailing, which is weird. Back home, 90% of women I successfully made initial contact with, I ended up going on a date with. Since I moved to this new city, even though I have the same profile, a better photo, and the identical correspondence style, the rate at which I can turn initial contact into a date has dropped from 90% to 3%. Literally. No exaggeration. I'm still trying to piece together what's gone wrong on this front. 

As an aside, has anyone else noticed a sudden increase in women's standards on Lavalife?







			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> 2)It is true that he may not succeed - either with a particular lady or in general. There's no mathematical certainty to romance. However, if he does not proceed as if he will succeed eventually, then he is doomed to always fail.



I'm with you here. Trying is a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition. 

But I don't see Aaron's problem as being based around the dating thing at all. Something has caused him to start drinking heavily and lose contact with his friends; I think _that's_ the problem we should be focusing on here. It's very easy for these threads to devolve into attempts by more romantically successful ENWorlders to assist we less sucessful ones in that sphere. But I think it's a mistake to see Aaron's problem in this way at all. Guys who stop seeing their friends need to solve that problem first, before they can even think about more risky, emotionally intense kinds of relationships.







> And, honestly, if he does his work right, and is actually a good person, then his chances are pretty good in the long run. Humankind has been doing this for aeons, after all.



C'mon -- where's the guy with all that statistical skill you display on other threads? What portion of the male population needs to be engaged in reproduction for that to keep going? I believe a significantly smaller proportion than currently are. 

Anyway, *Aaron*, please don't get bogged down in all the girlfriend stuff posted here. You have more serious issues to deal with -- but on the plus side, not only are these issues more serious, they are also easier to resolve. Bonne chance!


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 15, 2005)

im sorry i poste while drunk.  im not going to be able to post at enworld again.


----------



## Rel (Nov 15, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> But I don't see Aaron's problem as being based around the dating thing at all. Something has caused him to start drinking heavily and lose contact with his friends; I think _that's_ the problem we should be focusing on here. It's very easy for these threads to devolve into attempts by more romantically successful ENWorlders to assist we less sucessful ones in that sphere. But I think it's a mistake to see Aaron's problem in this way at all. Guys who stop seeing their friends need to solve that problem first, before they can even think about more risky, emotionally intense kinds of relationships.




You're probably right about this.  Aaron, find somebody who can help you work on this kind of stuff.  Depression is a nasty business and not something that is easy to bootstrap yourself out of.


----------



## FickleGM (Nov 15, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> im sorry i poste while drunk.  im not going to be able to post at enworld again.




Hey, so you were drunk...it happens.  So you have problems, it happens as well.  Whether it's as bad as your alcohol induced state inferred or only somewhat as bad, we are all friends here at EN World.  We all have our problems, some aired pubicly, some not.  Don't let this push you away from EN World.  If you would like to change the subject, I'm sure that we would understand.  Just stay away from this thread if it embarresses you (I would probably take some of the better advice and at least store it in my brain for later consideration).

I would hope that, although you may not have meant to air your concerns in the manner that you did, you have at least seen that even the harshest comments from this thread were meant to be constructive.  It isn't easy to find a forum with this many people who care (or if they don't, at least they have the decency to not post).

Stick around...it's all cool


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 15, 2005)

Impeesa said:
			
		

> Only one man can help you now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ROFLOL


----------



## fusangite (Nov 15, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> im sorry i poste while drunk.  im not going to be able to post at enworld again.



The correct term for this situation, Aaron L, is "frunk."

And I embarass myself regularly (this thread case in point) here, often without the assistance of alcohol. Whether with dating or the other stuff you're contending with, fear of public humiliation is something you'll have to get under control. Look at this as the starting point for that.


----------



## Xath (Nov 15, 2005)

Impeesa said:
			
		

> Only one man can help you now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Oh my goodness...I almost fell out of my chair.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Nov 15, 2005)

From now on, in my mind's eye, I will never again be able to think of Teflon Billy w/out a cape.


----------



## reveal (Nov 15, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> im sorry i poste while drunk.  im not going to be able to post at enworld again.




Nah, it makes you fit in better. We're all pretty much raging alcoholics here. I'm drunk right now!


----------



## fusangite (Nov 15, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> Oh my goodness...I almost fell out of my chair.



Same here. I laughed until I stopped.


----------



## Belen (Nov 15, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> i dont know what to do anymore.  i dont have any hope left of ever meeting anyone.  im 29 and have never had a girl even remotely attracted to me, despite going out and trying to meet people as much as i can.  ive been told im good looking.  ive been told im fun to be around.  ive been told im too nice.  i have no self confidence, but how do you have self confidence when you know that theres something so fundamentally repulsive about you to cause you to be 29 years old and never so much as kissed a woman?  ive tried asking people what i need to change abuot myself, and i never get a straight answer.  is it just that im nice, shy, meek, and polite, and these arent things that women want in a man?  my very personailty is just so unmanly that the very idea of a romantic relationship with me is a joke?
> 
> i dont know what to do anymore.  ive lost all hope and dont have much to live for if this is how my life is going to be.  all ive ever wanted since i was a teenager was someone to love me, and ive never had anything even remotely resembling it.  i used to be able to hide behind roleplaying and smother my pain in games, but i dont even have that anymore, everyone i gamed with having decided im not worth the effort to even speak to anymore.  i post it here becuse i have no friends left, and no one i can talk too.  i dont expect any answers, because i know there arent any.  but the pain is just too much and i need to yell, or scream, or even just complain to someone.  so i drink and hope to fall asleep and sometimes wish i wouldnt wake up in the morning.





My recommendation: Do not worry about love.  Just try and get laid.  You care too much right now, which is a serious turn off.  You have a decided lack of experience, which is also a turn off.

You need to learn how to play the game and to have a little confidence.  Not giving a damn works wonders.  A little arrogance and a brazen attitude goes a long way.

I was a lot like you until I just decided to go ahead and make my own luck.  If I saw a woman I liked, then I was direct.  I was shot down 90% of the time, but you still get a date for every 10 women you approach.

Final advice:  Be a guy, dude.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 15, 2005)

OK, first of all, can't be stressed enough, with regard to this:



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> so i drink and hope to fall asleep and sometimes wish i wouldnt wake up in the morning.



Please seek professional, medical help, in the form of counseling.  Seriously.  Get right with yourself.  You'll never be right with anybody else until you're right with yourself.  Check on your family medical history:  is there a history of depression or alcoholism?  Notify your doctor and counsellor.

Second, once you've worked on yourself, and gotten better, come back to this thread in six or eight months and *carefully* re-read what wolf70, Umbran, Dark Jezter, Rel, BOZ, and Fickle GM had to say.  There's a common message in there, which I alluded to in my previous paragraph.  By the way, you're 29?  Young.  I'm 32, still single, still meeting people, interested in some, not interested in others, still having a helluva lot of fun.  One of my brothers got married for the first time at 42.  You're young.  Hang in there.

Next, with regard to this:


			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> im sorry i poste while drunk. im not going to be able to post at enworld again.



Dude, don't sweat it.  Feeling self-conscious?  You've mentioned meekness.  This is something you can laugh about, not retreat from.

Someone else mentioned something they learned in Tai Kwon Do.  Here's one I learned from one of my aikido sensei:  "Fall down seven times, stand up eight times."

And finally, this:


			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Only one man can help you now.



Thank you.  By the way, where do I send the bill for the new computer monitor that shorted out from coffee spray?

Aaron?  Counselling.  Seriously.  Before ANYTHING else.  Get yourself right.  Good luck, we're all pulling for you.

Warrior Poet


----------



## LostSoul (Nov 15, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Since I moved to this new city, even though I have the same profile, a better photo, and the identical correspondence style, the rate at which I can turn initial contact into a date has dropped from 90% to 3%. Literally. No exaggeration. I'm still trying to piece together what's gone wrong on this front.




If you ever figure that out, I'd be interested to hear it.  I moved here from out west too (although Calgary's different from Vancouver - I think that's where you were from).  Not that there is all that much culture shock in the dating scene between the two cities.  There is some though.  Toronto girls seem to be more like American girls.


----------



## fusangite (Nov 15, 2005)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> If you ever figure that out, I'd be interested to hear it.  I moved here from out west too (although Calgary's different from Vancouver - I think that's where you were from).



I can't make sense of it really. I moved here, in part, because Toronto has the same kind of cold, privacy-obsessed social dynamic Vancouver does. Everything else socially seems pretty much identical, except that people are more neighbourhood-oriented here.

If you're looking for another game; I'll be relaunching a campaign of mine that's been on hiatus come January.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 15, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> But I don't see Aaron's problem as being based around the dating thing at all. Something has caused him to start drinking heavily and lose contact with his friends; I think _that's_ the problem we should be focusing on here. </i>
> 
> I don't believe that anyone, especially we who are not mental health professionals, are in any position to diagnose what his problem really is from a single message board post made while inebreated.  It isn't exactly a state from which one gets reliable testimony about emotional states.
> 
> ...


----------



## BSF (Nov 15, 2005)

Aaron,
I proposed to my wife for one solid reason.  We don't *need* each other.  We want to spend our time together and we enjoy ourselves, as well as each other.  

Getting a girlfriend/spouse/whatever isn't going to 'fix' anything for you.  I will reiterate what has already been said several times.  You must be confident and comfortable with yourself before you go any further.

So how do you get confident?  Hey man, play to your strengths.  You know what you do well.  So do them well!  Does that get you in contact with women?  Probably not.  The point is you need to know what your self value is before you can hope that others will appreciate it.  Because, and trust me on this, you do have self value.  You just aren't allowing yourself to see it right now.  

Take off the blinders, get help if you are depressed, find your groove and understand that you bring something to the world.  Then understand that you don't _need_ anybody else to get through life.  Do you want somebody else to share life with?   Sure you do.  But it isn't a requirement.  

Now, once you understand that you have value and you are a contributor to the world in general, you will understand why people should listen to you.  I don't know enough about you to tell you what this is.  But even if I could, it would just be words until you believe it yourself.  

Knowing that, realize that women are people.  They aren't objects, they aren't unattainable, they aren't all for you.  Like all people, you won't mesh with all of them.  In the worst case scenario, you ask out a girl and learn that she wasn't as comaptible with you as you had thought she might be.  In the best case, you find somebody as interesting as you that you get along with wonderfully.  

Where do you meet women?  Well, everywhere really.  But you might want to expand out your hobbies a bit to diversify.  I would suggest taking a dance class.  Yeah, I know that sounds odd and maybe stupid.  But let me explain.  

In a dance class, you will be 
getting exercise
gaining confidence in a new skill
forced to interact with many new people, most notably women
have an enforced social agenda on a regular basis
In short, you will be exercising and practising social skills.  You will be gaining confidence and you will even be able to go out dancing with girls during and after the classes.  Even if you are just a mediocre dancer, you can do just fine.  Many girls like to dance.  But when you say "Let's go out dancing, I know this great place that plays samba music.", most girls will be surprised and impressed that you know how to samba. 

Of course, you can apply the same general idea to different activities.  The point is get out and _do_ something to improve your life, have fun doing it, and if you find somebody to have a relationship with, that's great too.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 15, 2005)

I'd like to add BardStephenFox's post to the list of posts to review later that I mentioned earlier (what an appallingly constructed sentence).  Wise words.

Warrior Poet


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Nov 15, 2005)

Let me give another vote for dance class.  In college, a friend of mine signed up for a ballet class.  After 2 weeks, he was the only male in a group of 20 + women.  He was in absolute heaven...he went out with over half of them that semester.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2005)

I don't know a single woman that wouldn't swoon over a guy taking a ballroom dance class.  That's *totally* hot.


----------



## reveal (Nov 16, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I don't know a single woman that wouldn't swoon over a guy taking a ballroom dance class.  That's *totally* hot.




Why?


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Why?




Off the top of my head...

Because a woman loves a guy that dances.  
Because a man that is a good dancer is, most likely, good in bed.  
Because, if a guy *is* a bad dancer, but trying to get better, he's obviously willing to learn. *insert devilish, devious, sexy face here*  
Because ballroom dancing is romantic.  
Because taking a class in anything shows a desire to better one's self.


----------



## reveal (Nov 16, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Off the top of my head...
> 
> Because a woman loves a guy that dances.
> Because a man that is a good dancer is, most likely, good in bed.
> ...




I figured as much. Mainly I just wanted to see if it was because of the tight pants and sequins.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I figured as much. Mainly I just wanted to see if it was because of the tight pants and sequins.



 Well - that, too.  Nothing screams "confidence" like fabulous sparkling spandex.


----------



## reveal (Nov 16, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Well - that, too.  Nothing screams "confidence" like fabulous sparkling spandex.




I see what you mean.


----------



## Viking Bastard (Nov 16, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I see what you mean.
> 
> [img snipped]



Plus, he's packing.


----------



## ssampier (Nov 16, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Off the top of my head...
> 
> Because a woman loves a guy that dances.
> Because a man that is a good dancer is, most likely, good in bed.
> ...




Damn! I gotta take a dance class or something; I have "white man can't dance" complex.


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 16, 2005)

Ive only ever danced once, while I was runk, with a girl that became my best friend and I eventually (foolishly) fell in love with.  Being a 29 year old virgin makes you very unstable.  Not the virginity, exactly, the feeling unlovable.  i havent been seeking "true love" or anything like that.  I dont drool over girls.  I treat them the same way I do guys: Im shy, I try to make jokes (sometimes funny, sometimes not)  and Im just way too nice.  Girls and guys both.  ANd it seems to really turn people off.  Ive tried being noot so nice, but it makes me uncomfortable and I cant keep it up for very long.  I mean nice as in almost subserviant.  But its the way I am.  


As I said, Im not looking for tru love, or "the one."  Im looking for some girl that just doesnt think Im a freak and would like to be my girlfriend, and evey time I think I might have found someone, I get really hurt, and dont even get as far as a kiss.  Im noit looking for someone to "complete" myself or anything liek that, but just imagine for a second, what you would feel like if you were 29 years old, and you had never had ANYONE want to be with you.  

I just want that part of life for myself.  

Its not lack of trying (although I'm not walking around with a figurative "looking for mate" sign)  I just dont have ANY idea whatsoever of what to do, and I havent found anyone who I would want to try with (apart from someone who I really cant)  It hasnt been lack of social settings, and only just gaming and stuff.  Hell, I havent gamed in 6 months, evryone I played with stopped talking to me.  I know that has a lot to do with my depression.  Ive been going out and getting drunk a lot.  But I cant go oput by myself... Ive tried, and I end up sitting at the bar drinking with my head down.  Im just not good with people.  I try, god do I try, but I havent been able to do it.  



And as for professional help, well... Ive been seeing psychologists and psychiatrists all my life, and professional help isnt much help.  Ive been in counselling so much that I went into psychology in college just because I already knew so much about it that it came naturally.   Shrinks cant change your personality.  And my problem is that my personality is fundamentally repulsive to women.  Im the "friend" guy that women can talk too, but wouldnt  dream of being romantically involved with.  Its just something Im trying to accept.


I'll add that I have Tourette syndrome, and some minor arm tics (minor to anyone else, but major to me)  When I was younger I had severe facial tics and woukd make faces all the time, and the reactions I got from people have kind of scarred me.  I dont even remember the tics, but I remember what people thought of me.)  I also have ADHD, and while it doesnt affect my social life very much, it combined with a very bad back mean I cant get a job.  Im trying to save up to go back to college, but I dont know when Im going to be able to di it.  I get 600 dollars a month from social secutrity to live on, and there isnt much left to save.  (especially now with the drinking and smoking.  not that im an alcoholic or anyway near it or anything, but you know.)  Back when I was in college I had to have back surgery twice in 2 years, and it screwed up my grades (that along with such fear of asking for help from teachers and sometimes terror of even going to class.  Im not trying to blame anyone but myself for whats happened to my life.)


Im not looking for advice, Im not looking for anything, really.  I just got drunk and wanted to scream.  Im sorry I made an ass of myself.

(And I just noticed that I passed 2000 posts.  Wow, only here since the beginning and just now 2000?  And here I thought I talked too much.)


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Nov 16, 2005)

With that amount of money you get, you should apply for financial aid to go to college on. And find a career field that you don't have to kill your back any further on. Which is what I'm hoping a friend of mine can do as he's got a bad back from military service injuries. At least until his artwork can take over enough to live on... 

And you're not making an ass out of yourself.


----------



## LostSoul (Nov 16, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> If you're looking for another game; I'll be relaunching a campaign of mine that's been on hiatus come January.




Might take you up on that.


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 16, 2005)

My GPA is so bad that I dont quality for aid anymore. Not even the scholarship I had.


----------



## freebfrost (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> And my problem is that my personality is fundamentally repulsive to women.



Why would you think that?


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 16, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> Why would you think that?




29 years of experience.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 16, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Why?




Why?  Because without the class, the gent cannot ever hope to master the vertical expression of horizontal desire known as the tango, that's why.


----------



## Eeralai (Nov 16, 2005)

Sorry, I have not read all the replies, but BSF was telling me about this thread at dinner and how he suggested the ball room dancing.  I wanted to add my experience about dating a "nice guy."

When I was in college, I dated a guy who was hot (looked like johnny dep but with more defined muscles), had a motorcycle, was extremely intelligent, but waaaaaay too nice and not confident.  I say way too nice because he was always doing things for me so that I would like him.  Not because he liked me, but because he needed me to like him.  He was calling me sweetie every five minutes, would call an hour before the date to make sure we were still going out, would buy me stuff to impress me.  It was just too much.  I could not give him the attention he required to feel good about himself because that's something he needed to learn how to do on his own.  For me, when somebody needs me to need them, it's a big turn off.  I have my own things I want to do and I want a man to be a companion with and not someone's security blanket.

Sooooo I think ball room dancing is a great idea, or just finding something you like that you want to do.  Something that makes life enjoyable to you.  Not something to hide behind, but something you truly enjoy.  Then you will hopefully start seeing other things you truly enjoy and do them.  And like people have mentioned, you are moving out of the angsty years and into the laid back years.  Life is good in the thirties.  Find people you enjoy being with because you like what they have to offer and not because you hope they like you.  L


----------



## Eeralai (Nov 16, 2005)

Also....it looks like you are an anime fan.  Any anime clubs out there?  If not, maybe you could suggest a gaming store start one.  We had a gaming store here that did anime every thursday night or so, and it seemed fairly popular until the owners moved to memphis.  If nothing else, Ghost in the Shell Second Gig Volume 2 is coming out right before Thanksgiving and we can all look forward to that


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 16, 2005)

Thats actually something Ive always been really afraid of about myself.  I dont know if Im like that or not, and I hope not.


----------



## fusangite (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> (And I just noticed that I passed 2000 posts.  Wow, only here since the beginning and just now 2000?  And here I thought I talked too much.)



Congratulations!


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 16, 2005)

Eeralai said:
			
		

> Also....it looks like you are an anime fan.  Any anime clubs out there?  If not, maybe you could suggest a gaming store start one.  We had a gaming store here that did anime every thursday night or so, and it seemed fairly popular until the owners moved to memphis.  If nothing else, Ghost in the Shell Second Gig Volume 2 is coming out right before Thanksgiving and we can all look forward to that





I live in a horrible little town in Pennsylvania. An anime club wouldnt do very well around here.  And I dont really like anime beyond Tenchi.  There isnt even a game store anywhere near here.  Hell, book stores dont last more than a year in this town.


----------



## Starman (Nov 16, 2005)

Building self confidence is important, but it can be tough. I really struggled for a long time with it. You know what really helped me? Faking it. Seriously. I just started acting like I was totally confident about everything and anything. Inside I wasn't, but I wasn't showing anyone that. Eventually I started becoming more confident on the inside. I even had one person tell me that I'm intimidating because I'm so confident. It was more than faking it, of course, but it helped me out. Maybe it will work for you, too.


----------



## glass (Nov 16, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I am in the same boat (29, single, hopeless romantic). I have faith that I will not live my life w/o someone to share my love with.



I am also 29 and also single. It's getting crowded in this boat! 


glass.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> I live in a horrible little town in Pennsylvania. An anime club wouldnt do very well around here.  And I dont really like anime beyond Tenchi.  There isnt even a game store anywhere near here.  Hell, book stores dont last more than a year in this town.



Have you thought about moving?  Sometimes it can help give you new perspective/new start on life if you change your environment.  I don't know about you, but any town that can't keep a bookstore alive would kill me, so I'd move (but that's just me).  Lots of space out there, lots to see, lots of people in that space to meet . . . .

Warrior Poet


----------



## Rel (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron, what is it that you do with your time?  If you don't have a job or friends or girlfriend and such, how do you spend your days and nights (aside from going out and drinking).  I'm not asking this to be nasty or make you feel bad but I know that I get depressed when I start to have too much time for too long (I'm self employed and too much free time means my company isn't generating much money).


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 16, 2005)

I agree.  I'm not self-employed, but my job often has me sitting chained to a desk with little to do.

When I have too much free time and not anything to spend it on, I end up wasting away my days posting on message boards, but I also end up feeling kinda useless and lame.  Bored = depressed, at least for me.

If you don't have one already, get a hobby that you can indulge in whenever, that's not dependent on anyone else.  Mini painting, for instance, or working out, or ...I dunno, something.  Something that you feel a real sense of accomplishment from working on.


----------



## fusangite (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> I live in a horrible little town in Pennsylvania. An anime club wouldnt do very well around here.  And I dont really like anime beyond Tenchi.  There isnt even a game store anywhere near here.  Hell, book stores dont last more than a year in this town.



Why do you live there? Your pension is mobile throughout the state, right?


----------



## Rel (Nov 16, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> If you don't have one already, get a hobby that you can indulge in whenever, that's not dependent on anyone else.  Mini painting, for instance, or working out, or ...I dunno, something.  Something that you feel a real sense of accomplishment from working on.




Actually my suggestion would be to find some kind of volunteer work that isn't too hard on the back.  I think that helping other people is a lot more of a confidence builder and (by definition) social activity than doing anything for yourself.  Might as well put some of Aaron's greatest asset (niceness) to work making other people's day and life a little better.  That's really the environment in which that attribute shines brightest and seems least out of place and (potentially for women that he'd encounter) off-putting and clingy.

Someplace like a nursing home might be perfect.  It is full of two things:  People who need a little help and NURSES.


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Nov 16, 2005)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> Might take you up on that.



 fusangite, from what I've seen, LostSoul is definitely someone you want in your gaming group. He's an especially good DM, too, putting the Evil back into the BBEG.  This assumes that he's the same one I'm thinking about -- i.e. who gave up on his campaign log!  Arggh!


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Nov 16, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Someplace like a nursing home might be perfect.  It is full of two things:  People who need a little help and NURSES.



 Definitely not.  Having worked as a dietary aid in a nursing home while in high school, I can guarantee you that this is not a good idea.  You have one chance in maybe a hundred thousand of finding a suitable woman there, and then the atmosphere of the place will totally remove any romantic attitudes.  Go to a hospital instead.


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 16, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Someplace like a nursing home might be perfect.  It is full of two things:  People who need a little help and NURSES.









?

But yeah, that's a good idea too.  Anything to give you a sense of accomplishment, and usually helping someone else is more effective in that regard.  Plus you get to meet people.  That's usually a plus.


----------



## Rel (Nov 16, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> ?




You're a bad man, Joshua Dyal.  But you knew that already.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 16, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Actually my suggestion would be to find some kind of volunteer work that isn't too hard on the back.  I think that helping other people is a lot more of a confidence builder and (by definition) social activity than doing anything for yourself.



Quoted for truth.

One of the best things you can do when you're feeling low is to do something nice for someone else (and NOT with any kind of ulterior motive like "maybe that person will like me if I do this!").  Why?  1) It takes you outside yourself and forces you to focus on something other than how miserable you may feel, and 2) it helps you build your confidence because you can see results and recognize progress (like with an exercise program, fund-raising drive, or mowing the lawn, for example).  Can't do any heavy lifting with your back, but could you volunteer to read to those in the hospital, or do a program like Recording for the Blind and Dyslexic (http://www.rfbd.org), or walk a neighbor's dog, or answer the telephone at a help center?

Warrior Poet


----------



## BSF (Nov 16, 2005)

Heck, help children learn to read.  You interact with kids, you interact with teachers, you interact with parents.


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 16, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> You're a bad man, Joshua Dyal.  But you knew that already.



Quoted for truth.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> And my problem is that my personality is fundamentally repulsive to women.




Aaron, have you ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

If you've convinced yourself that you have nothing to offer women and that you're always going to be alone, then any attempts you make to get a girl are doomed to fail before they ever begin.  To change your situation, you need to start by changing your attitude that failure is inevitable.

I know it's been stated repeatedly in this thread already, but I'll mention it again anyways: chicks dig confidence.  A good point was made earlier in this thread by the guy who stated that if you don't have confidence, then you should fake confidence and eventually you won't have to fake it anymore.  Stop thinking "I'm a loser.  It's no wonder that girls don't like me" and change your mindset to "I'm a great guy.  If a girl dosen't want anything to do with me, then it's _her_ loss."


----------



## fusangite (Nov 16, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Aaron, have you ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?
> 
> If you've convinced yourself that you have nothing to offer women and that you're always going to be alone, then any attempts you make to get a girl are doomed to fail before they ever begin.  To change your situation, you need to start by changing your attitude that failure is inevitable.



As I mentioned previously, while some people can choose to ignore all the empirical evidence and believe certain things simply because they want to believe them, I don't think Aaron is one of them. Just because he knows his beliefs about how things will go are a negative influence doesn't mean he can choose not to hold them. What amazes me is that even when I write posts predicting the "self confidence" discourse that will appear on these threads, people still engage in it anyway. 

Aaron, himself, states that he knows that his lack of self-confidence is his single biggest problem in dealing with women; he wants to gain it. When somebody says, "I really need to learn how to build my self confidence, because without it I know I'm doomed to fail," you're not telling them anything when you respond, "You really need to build your self confidence, because without it you're doomed to fail," especially when you present this as though it's news to the person.







> A good point was made earlier in this thread by the guy who stated that if you don't have confidence, then you should fake confidence and eventually you won't have to fake it anymore.



Yes. It sure would be great if people who suggested that had practical suggestions for doing so, wouldn't it?







> Stop thinking "I'm a loser.  It's no wonder that girls don't like me" and change your mindset to "I'm a great guy.  If a girl dosen't want anything to do with me, then it's _her_ loss."



Any hints for actually doing that?

I find discussions like this weirdly annoying. If somebody said, "I need to get $10,000 or I won't be able to make a down payment on a house that's just come up for sale," and people responded, "You know what you need to do? Get $10,000. That's what you need to do. If you don't get $10,000, you won't be able to make that down payment," people would laugh at them.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 16, 2005)

there's always one option.  you could find a girl that is as lonely and miserable as you are.  she might just be happy to find a kindred spirit to drown her sorrows in, and won't much care (at first at least) about what you look like, how much money you make, or possibly even what your personality is like.

will this make you happy?  unlikely, but you never know.  it's always possible that curing each others' intolerable lonliness will also cure your intolerable unhappiness.  of course, most likely you'll wind up being emotional leeches on each other.

wait, that sounds kind of bleak.  buck up good fellow, you'll find a girl eventually if you keep the right attitude in mind.


----------



## freebfrost (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> 29 years of experience.



Well, that's less than helpful.

Kind of like saying "my computer is broken" to a help desk technician, and that's the extent of the information you are willing to share, but you expect them to help you.  

 :\


----------



## freebfrost (Nov 16, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> It sure would be great if people who suggested that had practical suggestions for doing so, wouldn't it?Any hints for actually doing that?



So, I'm curious fusangite - which side do you fall on?  Are you self-confident or not?


----------



## fusangite (Nov 16, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> So, I'm curious fusangite - which side do you fall on?  Are you self-confident or not?



As with all people, my self-confidence is situational. Everybody is self-confident in some situations and insecure in others. As I've already expressed on this thread, I am insecure in dating-type situations. In other types of situations, I'm very self-confident. But I don't want to hog the attention here, which is what seems to happen when I alert people to how unhelpful they sound when the self-confidence thing comes up.


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 16, 2005)

Heh, actually, I sit around my house all day, sometimes just lat in bed.  Then I get up and go for a walk, usually 5 to 10 miles a day.  The walks arent always much fun.  Within the last 2 months Ive had:

A car full of girls drive past me, yell "get a life" and throw a condom out the window at me.

someone yell "hey ugly" at me yes it was at me, thee was no one else around and they lauhed when i sped up and ran past)

someone threw a full plasic cup of soda pop at me from moving van.  i got soaked, and it was pretty cold out


other than walking i do nothing.  ive lost 30 pounds since this time last year from just walking, 12 in the last 2 months.  i go give blood every couple weeks(well, whenever its time again), but that isnt really much.  every so often i have a friend who will call me to go out, but ive been hearing from her less and less.  


id move away like my brother did (he moved to pittsburgh, dont hear from him much anymore.  hes the confident charismatic one and always got me through everything, and all my friends were friends of his) but i quite frankly couldnt survive without my mother.  i cant remember doctors appointments, when to take my medicine, and i certainly cant make my own appointments.  im quite a mess.  I know i lack confidence, i just have no idea how to gain any, especially when i dont have any reason to have any, and quite a lot of reason _not_ to have any.


----------



## fusangite (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Heh, actually, I sit around my house all day, sometimes just lat in bed.  Then I get up and go for a walk, usually 5 to 10 miles a day.  The walks arent always much fun.  Within the last 2 months Ive had:
> 
> A car full of girls drive past me, yell "get a life" and throw a condom out the window at me.
> 
> ...



My uncle Barton had a measurable IQ of 47 and never learned to read. He took about 15 pills a day and lived by himself. If you are capable of participating in this online debate, you are certainly capable of developing a routine that will allow you to take your medication without maternal assistance. I'm sure a social worker could work with you to develop customized routines for your meds. Either that or you could invest you cigarette money in an electronic organizer/souped-up phone one month.

As for making your own appointments, how, exactly, is that impossible? 

You need to get away from this horrible town where people throw things at you and scream epithets. Move to Pittsburgh for goodness sake!


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 16, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> It sure would be great if people who suggested that had practical suggestions for doing so, wouldn't it?  Any hints for actually doing that?



And I said:



			
				Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> do something nice for someone else (and NOT with any kind of ulterior motive like "maybe that person will like me if I do this!"). Why? 1) It takes you outside yourself and forces you to focus on something other than how miserable you may feel, and 2) it helps you build your confidence because you can see results and recognize progress (like with an exercise program, fund-raising drive, or mowing the lawn, for example). Can't do any heavy lifting with your back, but could you volunteer to read to those in the hospital, or do a program like Recording for the Blind and Dyslexic (http://www.rfbd.org), or walk a neighbor's dog, or answer the telephone at a help center?




I also said:


			
				Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> Have you thought about moving?




At one point, with regard to the potential drinking issue, as well as self confidence issues, I suggested:


			
				Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> seek professional, medical help in the form of counseling




But enough sounding my own horn.  There are far wiser people than I who have made helpful suggestions as well, including:

Rel, who said:


			
				Rel said:
			
		

> Actually my suggestion would be to find some kind of volunteer work that isn't too hard on the back. I think that helping other people is a lot more of a confidence builder and (by definition) social activity than doing anything for yourself. Might as well put some of Aaron's greatest asset (niceness) to work making other people's day and life a little better. That's really the environment in which that attribute shines brightest and seems least out of place and (potentially for women that he'd encounter) off-putting and clingy.




And Infiniti2000 said:


			
				Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> Definitely not. Having worked as a dietary aid in a nursing home while in high school, I can guarantee you that this is not a good idea. You have one chance in maybe a hundred thousand of finding a suitable woman there, and then the atmosphere of the place will totally remove any romantic attitudes. Go to a hospital instead.




While BardStephenFox recently noted:


			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Heck, help children learn to read.




And Starman said:


			
				Starman said:
			
		

> I just started acting like I was totally confident about everything and anything. Inside I wasn't, but I wasn't showing anyone that. Eventually I started becoming more confident on the inside. I even had one person tell me that I'm intimidating because I'm so confident. It was more than faking it, of course, but it helped me out. Maybe it will work for you, too.




Future Sword-and-Planet author Joshua Dyal mentioned:


			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> If you don't have one already, get a hobby that you can indulge in whenever, that's not dependent on anyone else. Mini painting, for instance, or working out, or ...I dunno, something. Something that you feel a real sense of accomplishment from working on.




And that's just to name a few.  If those aren't concrete suggestions to help get started, I don't know what are.  There isn't necessarily some magic formula we can all just post that solves the issue every time, but I think most folks on this thread have legitimately tried to help, and have often offered actual suggestions of some ways to begin.

Warrior Poet


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## FickleGM (Nov 16, 2005)

*Confidence 101 (I'll leave the 200/300/400 classes for others)*

So, you want to build confidence.  Normally confidence is felt when you do something that you're good at.  Here is a step-by-step process to build some confidence (maybe not a lot, but it's a start).

Step 1.  Get a piece of paper.

Step 2.  Get a pencil (or pen).

Step 3.  Write down at least 5 things that you are good at (making people laugh, math, eating, whatever).

Step 4.  Put a check mark by each one (you're already good at them, mission accomplished - in the correct situations, these will be your strengths - this is you starting point...your initial confidence).

***at this point, you can feel free to stop, try and channel your activities to the things that you've listed and move forward with the confidence that you already have)***

Step 5.  Start a new column of things that you want to be good at.

Step 6.  Identify activities that will help you become good at those things (if you put dancing, take a class; if you put better physical appearance, start exercising - perhaps you can help your back/if not, try and work around it, that's what I have to do when my back fails me - ; if you want to be a better conversationalist, join some sort of public speaking group like an Optimists Club or something).

Step 7.  Face these new activities as a challenge and overcome them (will it be daunting, probably; will you be afraid, I am at times; will it add some initial stress, yes - live with it, for to build confidence you have to move outside your comfort zone).

Step 8.  Recognize your growing confidence as you are able to do things you weren't able to before or do things better than you were able to before.

Step 9.  Don't become arrogant   .

Step 10.  If you aren't interested in it, don't do it (you don't need to be good at everything in order to be confident, there are only so many hours in the day).

I suffer from social anxiety (moderate to debilitating) and have had times where I've broken down to a shaken puddle of human flesh.  I have been paralyzed by my fear and have often found it easier to run the other way, but let me say that when I stiffen my upper lip, tell my brain to F-OFF (sorry Eric's Grandma) and jump into the uncomfortable situation I often find that it isn't even close to as bad as I thought that it would be (and usually I thank myself, later)...

If you are uncomfortable in public situations, get in them.  If you are uncomfortable asking women on a date, ask them (it's one thing to flirt with a women, it's another thing totally to just come right out and say, "would you like to go out on a date this weekend?" - after you talk for a bit, of course).  If you have a social flaw that may turn women off, be upfront with it (I don't know much about Tourette's, but if you aren't already doing so, disclose the information in a way that says, "yes, I have Tourette's, but it isn't an issue").

Part of the difficulty in giving advice on being more confident, is that you sort of have to just do it.  Puff your chest out (not in a weird way), walk with a swagger (not too much) and know inside that you are cool with you (if lady #1 isn't, it's her loss, so go on and talk to lady #2).  Don't act, it's too easy to see through (in other words, don't fake confidence - stick with what your good at and become good at more things), unless you are a very good actor (in which case, I would say that you have some confidence that you aren't admitting to).

Take all of this as what it is - a work in progress.  I have been successful when I have followed this advice and have failed miserably when I have deviated.  I have tried to act cool, but failed because it was clear to everyone that I wasn't what I was trying to be (in my case, I can do funny, flirtatious and spontaneous; I don't do tough, worldly or enigmatic and I am only moderately successful at intellectual, introspective and philosophical).  Do what your good at and get better at what you want to do (that is what I am working on - for example, I don't want to be tough, so I'll skip that one - I would like to be more intellectual, so I try to educate myself).  This year has been a year of challenges, successes and failures - I came out of my shell at Gen Con and met a lot of great people and had fun (success), I joined the Jaycees in order to volunteer my time and become more social (work in progress), I enrolled in school to get a bachelor's in management (failure at the moment).

Hopefully some of this helps, but it is really just a more detailed way of saying to just do it and don't worry about what other people think.  If you succeed, pat yourself on the back.  If you fail, learn from it.  Don't give up.  Don't surrender.  You are your own worst enemy, your own best friend and your own greatest coach.

Positive thinking is your biggest weapon, no matter how lame or flower child that sounds.  This will take time.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> ive lost 30 pounds since this time last year from just walking, 12 in the last 2 months.



Aaron, congratulations.  You've accomplished something, a worthy, worthwhile thing, and you made progress, so now, try to look back on that and recognize it as an achievement, not just a circumstance.  You did it!  No one else did.  You lost the 30.  Know how many people would like to lose 30 lbs.?  But you did it.  OK, one accomplishment in the bank.  Another accomplishment might be maintaining your weight and working on physical therapy to improve your back.  It will take time, effort, and you can measure your progress (including setbacks, which happen to everybody.  Everybody).



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> i go give blood every couple weeks(well, whenever its time again), but that isnt really much.



On the contrary, that IS much.  Do you know how often blood banks are short of the monthly amounts they'd like to have?  So, there's something else you've done that is significant, and measurable, and also highly altruistic and generous.  You've already established that you're a nice guy, and now you can take *Confidence* in the fact that you contribute something back to people who need it.



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> every so often i have a friend who will call me to go out, but ive been hearing from her less and less.



OK, so why don't you give her a call.  See?  She's been calling you, but if you don't call her, she's going to feel like she makes all the effort, why doesn't he call?  So call, and go out.  Get out there.




			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> all my friends were friends of his



OK, fair enough, so now maybe it's time to meet some people on your own and make them your own friends.  Not your brother's friends (and there's nothing wrong with them), but your own, which means putting yourself into social situations, finding common interests with people, and discussing those things, then setting future plans to meet with those people and continue the discussions, or try new things, and visit places of interest to spark further connection.



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> but i quite frankly couldnt survive without my mother.  i cant remember doctors appointments, when to take my medicine, and i certainly cant make my own appointments.  im quite a mess.



OK, this might be another reason to seek professional help from a doctor or counselor who might be able to advise you on ways to develop more independence, and independence breeds . . . Confidence!



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> I know i lack confidence, i just have no idea how to gain any, especially when i dont have any reason to have any, and quite a lot of reason _not_ to have any.



But you do have reason, and that's what a lot of us have been trying to tell you.  You need to see your accomplishments as accomplishments, not just circumstance.  Hell, Aaron, I don't give blood, and that's really lame.  How hard is it to do?  But you do it, regularly, and that's something you can have confidence in, feel good about yourself about (my god, what an awful prepositional train wreck that sentence was).

You have to realize you do have reasons.  We can't realize it for you.  You have to realize that you do have reasons.

Warrior Poet


----------



## Maerdwyn (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> im quite a mess.  I know i lack confidence, i just have no idea how to gain any, especially when i dont have any reason to have any, and quite a lot of reason _not_ to have any.




(I agree with those who have suggested counseling  - that should come first in my opinion.  This is for after you've set that up...)

In my experience, self confidence/good self esteem, etc.  are not something you achieve, but rather, _by-products_ of achievement in something you care about. As you suggested, if there's no reason for you to be proud of yourself, you won't be, or you'll just be unjustifiably proud of yourself, which isn't much better (That descibes a bunch of people I know, and they're insufferable).

If what you are doing now, as far as your work and personal life go, doesn't fill with pride or at least respect for yourself, then find something that does.  To start, I would suggest starting to do something that is not centered on yourself - do some good for someone else or a group of people, without looking for any tangible benefit to yourself.  Giving blood is *great* - how about spending a day at a blood bank helping out?   Volunteer in a school, a hospital, a church, a political or environmental cause, etc.  It can be something big, or if you are apprehensive about it at first, something small - even just a single day's work at something you will feel good about having done afterwards, and especially, during.   

No one is going to be calling you ugly or trying to avoid you, etc. if you are working towards a similar goal with them, and you'll get your mind off yourself and self pity while at the same time doing something decent or good for the society around you.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Within the last 2 months Ive had:



 'em.

Let the recounting of those incidents be the last time you think about them.  Those people are gone and done.  You have a life to get to, and you're too busy to dwell on the  those idiots dished out.  You're too busy, because you have important things to do, starting right now.

In other news, I should've just waited for FickleGM to post.  Great post.  Great post.

Warrior Poet


----------



## Dark Jezter (Nov 16, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> As I mentioned previously, while some people can choose to ignore all the empirical evidence and believe certain things simply because they want to believe them, I don't think Aaron is one of them. Just because he knows his beliefs about how things will go are a negative influence doesn't mean he can choose not to hold them. What amazes me is that even when I write posts predicting the "self confidence" discourse that will appear on these threads, people still engage in it anyway




Perhaps we still engage in it because we don't agree with you and have seen proof otherwise.  I've seen more than one guy in situations similar to Aaron's who managed to turn their lives around after making changes to their life starting with their attitude. 



> Aaron, himself, states that he knows that his lack of self-confidence is his single biggest problem in dealing with women; he wants to gain it. When somebody says, "I really need to learn how to build my self confidence, because without it I know I'm doomed to fail," you're not telling them anything when you respond, "You really need to build your self confidence, because without it you're doomed to fail," especially when you present this as though it's news to the person.Yes. It sure would be great if people who suggested that had practical suggestions for doing so, wouldn't it?Any hints for actually doing that?




People have been giving suggestions this whole thread, with some of them quite good.  In the end, though, only Aaron can pull Aaron out of the trap of self-pity and start building confidence in himself.



> I find discussions like this weirdly annoying. If somebody said, "I need to get $10,000 or I won't be able to make a down payment on a house that's just come up for sale," and people responded, "You know what you need to do? Get $10,000. That's what you need to do. If you don't get $10,000, you won't be able to make that down payment," people would laugh at them.




Apples and oranges.  Self-image is not home financing.


----------



## sarabethv (Nov 16, 2005)

I will admit that I didn't read every single reply, so forgive me if I repeat something. 

Please pay attention to the advice about depression and self worth (I did read some of them and the advice is valid) but my advice is a little different.

Look around you. Seriously, I have a few friends who are pretty much in the same boat, they are guys in their late 20s saying that they can't get a date.  I can tell you that the girls they look at are in general pretty and selfish and concerned only with themselves. These women are not gonna look at you unless you have something they want. 

So, let me ask you; "what type of female do you go for?"  Who do you ask out, or want to ask out?  Now look around. There is probably some geeky girl, maybe a little overweight, maybe a little too skinny, maybe she wears glasses or maybe she is really pretty but hides behind a book.  I'm sure there is one around you, perhaps a friend and you have ignored this female cause she isn't what you picture as "dating material." 

Try and ask these girls out - you may wind up a winner with someone you care about and who really cares about you.


----------



## Audhild&Krin (Nov 16, 2005)

I have nothing to add about gaining confidence, the others posters have great suggestions.  However, I do want to share a revelation I had a number of years ago.  

You mentioned some jerks that attacked you verbally and physically while out walking.  They are gaining a false sense of confidence by degrading you.  When a person feels the need to degrade, demean and be a jerk to another they are trying to justify their own existence.  If they were truly happy with themselves they would have no need to hurt another.  I have found that the amount of pain they try to inflict on another is equal to the pain they themselves feel.  Just keep that in mind the next time someone is abusive.

Congratulations on the weight loss!


----------



## Teflon Billy (Nov 16, 2005)

OK Aaron...it's "Hard Truth" time (stop cringing, it's not going to be so bad).

If getting a woman is important to you--and it sounds like it is, and in my opinion it should be--then you are going to need to put in some working hours, OK?

Now pay attention here, and don't discount what I say. People are going to--probably in this very thread--say that the advice I'm giving you is abhorrent.

You are twenty-nine, never had a woman, and have a level of self-esteem that is positively _gut shot_, correct?

Here's what you need to do: Date ugly women for awhile.

I've seen pictures of you and you are a reasonably decent looking guy (you also describe some current weight loss which I'm sure has helped)...so, from a normal, north american's point of view, you are already a step up in the game: You are above average looking.

Which means that you are going to be capable of making a good first impression. Unfortuantely, by your own admission, you are a walking disaster confidence-wise. I'lltake your word for this, I can't imagine why you'd lie.

So here is the deal: you need to start "fighting under your weight" so to speak. That means Fat Girls, Ugly girls, Stupid Girls...I don't care. You need to date someone who is _less_ than you.

Settle down. This is the "work" part, it's not necessarily supposed to be enjoyable.

However, it will do a couple of things

First, it will let _other_ girls see you with a girl. I don't know why, but if a guy is already involved with a girl, he becomes more attractive to other girls. There will be more interest in you fromthe opposite sex for no other reason than you are already "Taken"

Secondly, it will get "other girls" thinking in terms of "what is he doing with her?" when you and the freak show roll into town rather than what you describe (Them finding you repulsive) orwhat I suspect is actually the case (them giving you no thought whatsoever).

Thirdly, it will "get you over the hump"...you need to get the ball rolling so to speak, and you are going to do that by starting at the bottom and working your way up. I think if you had more confidence, you could probably start in the middle, but--and thisis not criticism--you don't.

Fourthly and finally, it will give "other girls" the impression that you look for more in a girl than classic good looks. I suspect this is likely true, but there is no way for "othjer girls" to really know this fact in your day-to-day (non)interaction with them. This is clear, empirical evidence.

So I'm serious Aaron...go date a fat girl, but remember why you are doing it. I'm not saying don't enjoy yourself--hell, she might be awesome, and you might wind up in love--but go do it, with no other expectations than starting at the bottom and working your way up, repairing your ruined confidence, actually _starting_ your life with the opposite sex.

And whoever did that "Teflon Billy Signal", that was awesome


----------



## BSF (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron,
To be quite honest, I don't see what is so terrible about you.  Sure, you have some challenges that other people might not need to deal with.  But you also have some real strengths.  I wish I could give blood on a regular basis.  But I totally freak out when it comes to needles.  It has been something that I haven't been willing to address in my life.  

You walk 5-10 miles a day?  That's great!  I'll tell you what, when I was running in high school, I would have people try to be jerks as they drove past.  They aren't the type of people worth wasting any time on.  I had football players try to deride me for being a runner.  Mostly they were jealous at our success earned through hard work.  It sounds like you have truly sorry neighbors in your town.  Don't let them drag you down through their own pettiness and fear.  You are better than that.

Being depressed is a tough gig.  But the best way out of it is to seize control for yourself.  It's great that your mother is there to help you.  But you also need to take some responsibility for yourself.

If you have trouble remembering doctor's appointments, come up with a solution to fix that.  Get a calendar if you need to.  Write down the day and time in the calendar.  Every single morning, get up and check to see if you have something planned.  Do this every single day!  Make it a habit!  Check the software on your computer for calendar reminders or scheduling.  Add appointments to this as well.  Setup reminders.  Make it habit to check every single day.  Add in schedules and reminders for medicine.  Take the responsibility for yourself.  Get that routine down because there is no reason for you to feel helpless about it.

Why can't you make appointments for yourself?  Are you unfamiliar with the procedure?  Is there insurance information you don't have?  Are you afraid you don't remember your schedule?  Or is it just that doing it the first time terrifies you?  You don't even need to post an answer, but at least answer it for yourself.  Identifying the problem is the first step towards solving it.  You can learn procedures.  You can learn, or at least write down for reference, insurance information.  You will be creating a schedule (see above) so you will overcome that obstacle.  Go ahead and talk to the people that schedule the doctor's time.  If you have to, tell them this is the first time you are taking care of it yourself.  The only way to overcome fear is to address it.

Perhaps part of your problem is that you see the entire issue as one, huge problem and it seems overwhelming?  The key is to break everything down into small steps.  I bet you have better organizational skills than you think you do.  You just need to practice at it and get better.  We are throwing a lot of different ideas at you.  We don't expect that you will try all of them all at once.  Pick one at a time.  Address one problem at a time.  Make small, incremental changes that slowly turn your life around in a direction you want it to be going.  Sometimes one plan won't work out.  Then you need to step back, come up with a new plan and try again.  

There are over 40 people replying to this thread.  Remember that there are quite a few people here that want you to succeed.  We think you are a pretty cool guy.  But there is only so much that we can tell you.  At some point, you have to take control of yourself.  Only you can actually do something about making your life better.  You have some great qualities, take the time to see them for what they are.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 16, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> And whoever did that "Teflon Billy Signal", that was awesome



Impeesa gets the    on that one.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Secondly, it will get "other girls" thinking in terms of "what is he doing with her?" when you and the freak show roll into town rather than what you describe (Them finding you repulsive) orwhat I suspect is actually the case (them giving you no thought whatsoever).




Quoted for truthery.

When I first met The Universe, he was dating a rather large red head named Jessica.  I instantly became attracted to him because [ditzy] "Like, oh my god!  He's totally cute... and I am *so much* better looking than her!  Pish - I could totally have him." [/ditzy]


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2005)

Oh - also - when you date the ugly girl, it makes *you* look that much better.

*smiles and shakes her head*  Teflon Billy, you're my favorite.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> I mean nice as in almost subserviant.  But its the way I am.



You can change who you are.  It's hard, but if you want to be someone else, you can be.  



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> Shrinks cant change your personality.



You're right, they can't.  Only you can do that.  But they CAN help you to see HOW to do that.



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> Its just something Im trying to accept.



Or you could accept that you can change that, and set about changing it.



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> I'll add that I have Tourette syndrome . . . that along with such fear of asking for help from teachers and sometimes terror of even going to class.  Im not trying to blame anyone but myself for whats happened to my life.



It sounds to me like you may have more than the normal allotment of anxiety we all get stuck with sometimes.  I'm not a doctor, but have you ever been diagnosed with anything like an anxiety disorder, panic attacks, etc.?  Again, I'm not a doctor, but I'm wondering if there may be something else there besides just run-of-the-mill nervousness.

Incidentally, a quick Google revealed this:

Dr. Samuel Johnson - probably the world's most famous lexicographer
Jim Eisenreich - major league baseball player (retired) and member of the 1993 World Series Champion Philadelphia Phillies
Dan Akroyd - comedian and actor
Tim Howard - goalkeeper for Manchester United Football Club

What do all these people have in common?  Tourette's.

Who do you want to be?  And how will you go about becoming that person?  You said you weren't looking for advice, so I'll shut up now, except to say take the power.

Good luck, man.

Warrior Poet


----------



## The Shaman (Nov 16, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> [ditzy] "Like, oh my god!  He's totally cute... and I am *so much* better looking than her!  Pish - I could totally have him." [/ditzy]



Ow, I think I strained something from laughing so hard!

 


It also reminds me of a Scary Ex-Girlfriend who seemed to be most attracted to me when I was with someone else...but that's another story altogether...


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 16, 2005)

Teflon Billy again for teh win!!!


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 16, 2005)

hahaha, thanks for the advice


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## FickleGM (Nov 16, 2005)

When Teflon Billy speaks, E.F. Hutton listens...


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 16, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> When Teflon Billy speaks, E.F. Hutton listens...



I wonder how many people around here are old enough to remember what that means.   Besides me, that is.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 16, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I wonder how many people around here are old enough to remember what that means.   Besides me, that is.



Yeah, right here. *raises hand*

Yours in aging, 

Warrior Poet


----------



## WizarDru (Nov 16, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I wonder how many people around here are old enough to remember what that means.   Besides me, that is.




Regretfully, I do, as well.  In fact, someone at my company mentioned it at the lunch table and then immediately realized there were some people who had no idea.  And we felt OLD.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 16, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Regretfully, I do, as well.  In fact, someone at my company mentioned it at the lunch table and then immediately realized there were some people who had no idea.  And we felt OLD.



 I know the saying - not because I'm old enough - but because it was the answer to a trivia question I once didn't know the answer to.

... now do you feel *really* old?


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 16, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> ... now do you feel *really* old?



Thanks.  Now get off my lawn.

  Warrior Poet


----------



## FickleGM (Nov 16, 2005)

Well, I'm only 33 and it shows.  I believe that I misquoted - I think that it should be "talks" and not "speaks".


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 16, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> Thanks.  Now get off my lawn.
> 
> Warrior Poet



And turn down that blasted noise!  I don't know how in tarnation you kids can call that music...


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 16, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Well, I'm only 33 and it shows.  I believe that I misquoted - I think that it should be "talks" and not "speaks".



Oh, I know.  It's not really that old.  Really.  And that's not just because I turn 34 in January..


----------



## Teflon Billy (Nov 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> hahaha, thanks for the advice




I'm not sure if you are laughing at the advice or the fact that it was humourously delivered, but let me assure you...I am not kidding in any way.

You need to take this advice.


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 16, 2005)

Maybe I will.  Its sounds pretty horrible, though.  Asking a girl out because I think shes ugly.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Maybe I will.  Its sounds pretty horrible, though.  Asking a girl out because I think shes ugly.




Well, as I mentioned above, it _is_ work towards a goal, but there's really no reason to think of it that way man.

First, it will get you some dating experience. This is crucial to your development. Dating is like anything esle: if you practice you will likley get better. the better date you are, the better a chance you have of loosening up and attracting girls.

Worried about _her_ feelings? Good. That means you are human.

But really, there is no need to be worried. You don't need to make your reasons for dating her common knowledge, neither do you need to "Fake" anything. Just act like you want to (or think you should) on a date. Try and have fun.

I'm not advocating just showing up and going through the motions. _Date_ this girl. go out, enjoy yourself if you feel so inclined

The truth of the matter is that you are trying to get several girls who are slightly better looking than this one to think "Damn, I'm better than her, why isn't he with me?"

When and if that happens, repeat the process, only with girls who are slightly better than your new one.

And so on, until you have a girl who is pretty much in your league.

However--and pay attention here--_none_ of this advice should necessitate you not giving any kind of "boyfriend value" back to the girl you are dating. Hold her hand in public, help her on with her coat, listen to her...

Just becasue she is a means to an end doesn't in any way mean that you should be behaving any differently than you will with the next girl up the ladder.

She will likely be happy to be dating you.

You think you have low self esteem? Low self-worth? Low value placed on you by an uncaring culture?

Measure it against that of a fat girl in North America.

You lose

In fact, it's not even close.


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

true.  it is good advice.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

sarabethv said:
			
		

> So, let me ask you; "what type of female do you go for?"  Who do you ask out, or want to ask out?  Now look around. There is probably some geeky girl, maybe a little overweight, maybe a little too skinny, maybe she wears glasses or maybe she is really pretty but hides behind a book.  I'm sure there is one around you, perhaps a friend and you have ignored this female cause she isn't what you picture as "dating material."




that's defintely true.  the only guys that can get away with being shallow are the ones who have enough room to be shallow in the first place.    the best girl to be with is the one who will like you for you, that you share common interests in.  if you only ask out all the local hotties - i mean, what are most of them interested in doing in the first place?

here's another idea - online personals.  worked for me.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> OK Aaron...it's "Hard Truth" time (stop cringing, it's not going to be so bad).




BTW, TB has got the advice for you there, man.  seriously.  girls that are less attractive than most do need attention too.  in fact, if they're not getting any attention, they are probably just as starved for it as you are!  just remember that.  hey, it may give you the upper hand and help you be more confident too.  if she is more nervous than you are, this may help you calm down a bit!

and most importantly, if you date a string of girls that you normally wouldn't have considered being with, AT LEAST you will have some experience under your belt (heh, maybe literally - with the lights out, who cares with she looks like!)  

no seriously, picking girls based on how *un*attractive they are is just as shallow as picking them solely on how good looking they are.  just go for someone *approachable* and start with that.  you like (picks something out of thin air) anime?  if you see a chunky girl reading an manga, ask her what her favorite comic is and then slip "wanna go out sometime" in the conversation.  she may be pleasantly surprised, and you may be too!


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

hey, think of it this way.  

you want to learn how to kill a dragon, right?  well, you've been an apprentice for at least 10 years longer than you should have.  do you think you have enough XP to kill that dragon?  HELL NO, that bad boy is going to eat you up in one bite.

you need some XP.  go kill some orcs, goblins, and kobolds, and then come back to us.    you may even have to kill some trolls, but don't worry about that.  challenges can be fun!


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## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

People often ask me, "Rel, why is it that you're so confident that you're an attractive individual, mind, body and soul?"  And let me be clear that when I say "people" I mean "virtually nobody" and when I say "often" I mean "almost never".  But regardless of that fact, what I would say is this:

"It's the Epiphany, baby." *wink&gun*

The Epiphany in question ranks right up there among the very best epiphanies that I've had in my life.  If I smoked, I'd have needed a cigarette after this one.  "What," you may ask, "was so special about this particular epiphany."  I'm going to tell you right after another sip of this wine...

(Wine is good for epiphanies you know.  Especially if you're not overly concerned with quality.)

One day I was contemplating my irrelevance and relative lack of importance to anybody but myself.  (I wasn't always as confident as I am today.)  One way in which I was contemplating my meaninglessness was in comparison to the long line of people from whom I'm descended.  I took this a step further by adding the consideration that (because I believe in evolution) there was many a critter who came before the people who eventually spawned me.  Hundreds of thousands of them.  Maybe millions!  How insignificant am I?!

But as I was thinking about this long line of ancestors, a thought began to creep through.  What was it that these creatures and, eventually, people, had in common?  Some of them were smart and some were dumb.  Some were doubtlessly very complex individuals and some were unicellular.  But they all had one thing in common:  They successfully reproduced.

"My GOD!" I thought at that moment, "I've been bred for millions upon millions of years to be the *perfect screwing machine!*"    "I was born to fornicate!"

Think about it...all those millions of ancestors managed to get together and do the dirty with each other.  And they lacked the benefit of deoderant and toothpaste!  How could I lose?!

It probably helps that I'm funny and smart and tall and good looking and a good GM (that last one probably only helps a little).  But I know in my heart that I was bred for one reason...

To breed the next generation of breeders.

For this task I am supremely qualified and I'd like to think I've taken the job seriously. 


Oh, and speaking of epiphanies, try this one on for size, fusangite:  You need to get back into politics.  Those guys score more ass than Kenny Chesney.


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## Impeesa (Nov 17, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> And whoever did that "Teflon Billy Signal", that was awesome




Hehe, thanks. I figured it beat the obligatory "paging TB" reply. 

--Impeesa--


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 17, 2005)

*laughing*  Rel, have I told you lately that I love you?


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## FickleGM (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> "My GOD!" I thought at that moment, "I've been bred for millions upon millions of years to be the *perfect screwing machine!*"    "I was born to fornicate!"




That's awesome, consider it sigged.



> But I know in my heart that I was bred for one reason...
> 
> To breed the next generation of breeders.




Bred to Breed (it should be a song)...  *wink&gun*


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Nov 17, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Bred to Breed (it should be a song)...  *wink&gun*




Rel's first book:  Rel's Rules for Toting the Pumpkin: Bred to Breed.


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## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Rel's first book:  Rel's Rules for Toting the Pumpkin: Bred to Breed.




Actually, the working title for my first non-gaming-related book is _Stuff I Say_.  My wife lives in fear that somebody besides me will someday read it.


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## fusangite (Nov 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if you see a chunky girl reading an manga, ask her what her favorite comic is and then slip "wanna go out sometime" in the conversation.  she may be pleasantly surprised, and you may be too!



Too many people may be onto this trick in Toronto, though. I've been shot down by two shy chunky comic book-reading girls in this town since spring.


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## DarrenGMiller (Nov 17, 2005)

I think one of the most important and helpful things that you could do is not directly involved with seeking a relationship.  This is tough, but VERY important.  My brother had a lot of issues similar to what you are dealing with.  

Add some structure to your life.  So, you don't have a job that you have to go to at a certain time.  Give yourself places to be at certain times throughout the day.  Establish a typical day and (here's the hard part) stick to it.  Post your schedule in a prominent location on a large dry erase calendar.  Add any appointments or whatever to it and check it every day at the same time.  In fact, schedule time to review your daily schedule.  I know it sounds like a total pain, but it is a great tool to achieving your goals.  Schedule everything from waking up, taking a shower, eating three good meals a day, taking a walk, whatever.  As you meet your schedule each day, you will raise your self-esteem.  You are meeting your goals (believe me, these are as valuable as many of my goals at work).  Once you get into the routine, you will feel better, sleep better and have some fun doing things you enjoy on a regular basis (schedule them!).

Also, my wife's cousin made money by donating plasma.  The catch is that your blood alcohol has to be below a certain level.  If you exceed that level, they don't allow you to donate any more.  Period.  Give it a shot.  You can make some money from it and help others.

There have been some great practical suggestions in this thread.  Please give some of them a try.

DM


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## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

sadly, in this town, if your truck doesnt have a gunrack in it, and your belt buckle isnt bigger than your IQ, then your out of luck as far as women are concerned.  trust me.  at least the single ones.  anyone good is already taken.


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> sadly, in this town, if your truck doesnt have a gunrack in it, and your belt buckle isnt bigger than your IQ, then your out of luck as far as women are concerned.  trust me.  at least the single ones.  anyone good is already taken.




Then get a gun rack and a large buckle.  I've heard of lots of men that have to change their ways to atract women like shaving, bathing, dressing nicely, not being abusive.....the belt buckle and gun rack are easy compaired to that.


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## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

I just cant find a big enough belt buckle!!

the not being abusive part is optional around here, apparently.


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 17, 2005)

Totally get a big belt-buckle.

First: They are cool.

Second: You've identified it as something that will aid you in getting a girl.

Hop to it.

This would be my choice


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> the not being abusive part is optional around here, apparently.




It's always optional when you are dealing with folks with low self-esteem (as you will be).

_Choose_ not to.


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## Psion (Nov 17, 2005)

Y'know, normally when I see TB dispense wisdom, it's usually not long until someone of the fairer gender decries it as untrue.

Seeing a woman "getting his back" as it were (no, not in that way, you out there with the dirty minds) makes the whole thing almost... cosmic.


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## Kanegrundar (Nov 17, 2005)

How far away are you from a larger town?  Maybe getting out and socializing in a different neck of the woods would do your game some good.  I'm from a town of 12,000.  Most of the women in town where either already taken, I had gone out with and got dumped or I dumped, I had shot down, or they had shot me down.  Not a lot of options there.  I started hanging out in other towns nearby and I started getting more dates.  Nothing of any consequence, but I had a good time nonetheless.

Either that, or try an online dating service.  That's how I met my fiancee (through Match.com).  True, there are a LOT of freaks on those things, but it may be the ticket to start off slow with some emails or IM's with a gal that sounds interesting instead of approaching a gal cold.  Plus, you'd be more like to find someone with a background that fits with you better.  If you go that route, be ready to run screaming a few times.  Lord knows I met some pretty awful gals that way, but I also met a lot of cool gals also some from my area I had never seen before.

Edit: TB's advice about aiming low and working up is golden.  Let other women see you with someone under your league.  It's amazing how it works.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> sadly, in this town, if your truck doesnt have a gunrack in it, and your belt buckle isnt bigger than your IQ, then your out of luck as far as women are concerned.  trust me.  at least the single ones.  anyone good is already taken.




seriously, if your pond is full of inbred, retarded hicks, you need to try fishing in a different lake.

go visit your brother, a big city is *bound* to have a better variety of women...


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 17, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Totally get a big belt-buckle.
> 
> First: They are cool.
> 
> ...



 The Punisher called.  He wants his belt buckle back.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Too many people may be onto this trick in Toronto, though. I've been shot down by two shy chunky comic book-reading girls in this town since spring.




of course that trick's not going to work for you; that advice was for Aaron.    you should bring him up to canucktown and introduce him to those girls and watch the MACK in action!  (hell, he could probably pick one up and get one for you too!  that's what buds are for!)


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## Barendd Nobeard (Nov 17, 2005)

Impeesa said:
			
		

> Hehe, thanks. I figured it beat the obligatory "paging TB" reply.
> 
> --Impeesa--




Can you put it up for sale at Cafe Press?  That would be an awesome shirt to wear to GenCon next year!  

And, Aaron, good luck!  Take some of this advice and run with it.  You've got almost nothing to lose except your unhappiness.


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 17, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> The Punisher called.  He wants his belt buckle back.




Ahh, yeah. I hadn't thought of that.

I guess drop that earlier one and go with this one...


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

OK, pull up a chair, hand me that bottle whiskey, and shut the hell up. Listen up, and listen good.

Number One: *YOU ARE NOT A WOMAN! STOP ACTING LIKE ONE!*

"I'm shy, sensitive, like long walks in the moonlight, *and want to make some lucky man a good wife!*" is practically what I read. You're not equipped to be a lesbain. Quit watched Ellen and watch ESPN. Go out and play football with some friends. Get bloody, dirty, smelly, go to the tavern afterwards and stop worrying about other people's feelings.

Seriously, stop worrying about your looks. I'm uglier than a chimp that fell out of an ugly tree, hit every branch twice on the way down, hit the ugly highway, and was run over by the ugly truck. Guess what! I got women. Don't worry about looks.

I'll give you some basic advice. Some of this has already been covered, and some people will say I'm wrong.

*Number the Two:* WASH YOUR STANKY BUTT! Every morning, when you get home from work, and every night before you press your skin on those sheets. And wash your hair! Bathing is necessary. NOBODY sniffs someone else and says: Ooooh, (s)he smells like unwashed buttcrack on a three day dead prostitute, I gotta have them, right now, on the table. WASH WASH WASH! Choose a soap that goes with your sweat too. This is vitally important. There's a couple of deodorants that combine with my sweat and make me smell like I just got done wrestling a puma! This may cost a little cash, but buy samples or small bottles, and spray it on a sweaty shirt, and sniff it.

Use cologne or aftershave SPARINGLY! She wants a slight wiff of it when she's close, not tasting it in her chalupa two hours later. Spritz it in front of you and walk through the mist quickly. That's enough. If you can smell it strongly, go back and repeat the above, try again.

*The Holy Three:* WEAR CLEAN CLOTHING! For the love of GOD! Nothing is worse than someone wearing pants that could come up to the bar and order drinks on thier own. That black shirt you got for free with a copy of SOCOM 3 that hasn't been washed since the factory isn't going to cut it. You need to wear clean, decent clothing.

Every meeting is an interview. View it that way. Dress decently, but comfortably. There's nothing wrong with wearing slacks and a button up tie to a club. If the rednecks laugh, ignore them, are you trying to date THEM?

*Four by Four:* Maintain eye contact. Guess what, when talking to a woman, her ears are NOT located on thier chest. Glance away at the surroundings once in awhile, but for the most part, FOCUS ON HER! Do you want HER to put out, or the TV behind the bar. If you chose the TV, I can't help you, but Wal-Mart Electronics might be able to.

*Fifth Element:* Don't talk down to her. Talk WITH her, not to her. You want an equal, not a verbal sponge. Talking WITH her shows that you are listening, that you have a spine. Oh, and on that line...

*Sixth Seal:* Have a damn spine. Don't be afraid to say no, but don't say no to everything. A good estimate, let the things taht don't matter go her way, that way the important things she will listen to you about. Don't be afraid to say: "I hate that bar, the bartender smells like a dead hobo in the sun on a pile of dead fish" when she wants to go in there.

*Seventh Heaven:* Don't think about looks. You know those models? They aren't real. They look NOTHING like that in real life, and if you actually found someone built like one of those airbrush models, call 911 because when she takes a step her waist will snap in half and spray you with entrails. Want to know a secret? Those pretty girls are crap in the sack. They're lazy, self-indulgent, and expect having a body to be the whole experience. See the plain girl with glasses quietly reading that book? She let's that hair hit the pillow, you might need an ambulance when she's done. If you go off of looks, put your eyes out with an ice pick, you'll be happier.

*Eight Points of Seperation:* Girls talk. About *everything.* From what you did, to how you did it, to how long you took, to the way you acted before, during, afterward, to where you took them, to how you smelled, tasted, everything. She will tell her friends all the dirty details. If you can't handle that, or can't think beyond yourself, start figuring out how to break into the zoo after dark.

*Nine Ways to Leave:* Break ups WILL happen. Fights, arguements, disagreements. They happen. A mature thing is to get by them. BUT, *never ever ever ever ever ever* cheat on a woman. She will tell her friends, who will tell her friends, and everyone who didn't know while you were doing it, will be told by both of the women, and no local woman will EVER trust you again. At least, not after your ex or one of her friends sees you together. Just because Girl A is putting out doesn't suddenly make you the King of Vagina.

*Ten of Clubs:* Continue being nice. Keep a little of the meekness. GET RID OF THE MEEKNESS! No woman wakes up and thinks: "You know, I've never tried bestiality, I'll bed a mouse today!" No woman wants to date a woman in a man's body. Being meek means letting people walk over you in public opinion. You need to have your opinions on politics, religion, etc. Let her slowly swing you to some of her views, but have your own opinions, have a backbone, don't give in to everything.

*Listen to some of the advice in here!* Look, an RPG board is probably NOT the best place to ask for advice. Nowhere on the internet is. You're painting a big target on your head and being surprised when you get shot in face.

If you give up after only a few tries, after trying to change, you will never get anywhere in life.

Want to know something?

Most women are worried about the following:

Employability. Can you get and HOLD a job. 

Livability. Do you live with Mommy? Say goodbye to the ladies.

Rapport. Do you actually listen? Actually hold a conversation with her face, or are you too busy mumbling at her breasts?

Looks come in a bad fourth, at best.

Listen to Teflon Billy. Listen to other people in this thread.

Don't do the Boomhauer School of Dating, but make no mistake, while you learn to crawl, your gonna smash your face on the carpet a few times.

Just because she doesn't want to date you the first night doesn't mean she won't remember you and how polite and nice you were the next time she sees you in the club.


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## Eeralai (Nov 17, 2005)

Yay Warrior Poet!  I like a lot of what you've said.

Aaron, I think a key here is getting yourself into your own routine with your meds and your
appointments.  Maybe make it a goal that within a year you will be doing these things on your own and then you can think about things like moving out.  In this year possibly cut back on tobacco and alcohol consumption and save a bit of money for an apartment deposit or such.  Forget about women for the time and look to becoming a bit more independent.  Maybe you can start by keeping a journal and marking in it the times you need to take your meds.  To remind yourself, set an alarm to go off every hour or every two hours and you know you need to check your journal to see if it is time for medication and if so be sure to mark down after you take it.  Get one of those BIG wall calendars like they use in offices and schools and write down all your appointments on it.  Then after you get used to these changes, you start being the one to call the Dr.'s and make the appointments. 

Take small steps to achieve the bigger ones.  Set up a daily routine for yourself and stick to it.  I am big on routine.  It keeps order in my life.  Sometimes weekends are hard for me because they are long stretches of unorganized time.  Maybe you could start with waking up before noon, eating something, reading something, go walking, eat again, hit the internet, read again, have dinner watch some TV and go to bed.  Just a suggestion.  I also like weekly routines like, Mon. is house cleaning day, Wed. is library day, Friday is visit my parents day, things like that.  It gives me things to look forward too on a weekly basis.  That might be a bit much for you right now, but think about it.  Start small with the big goal of being independent in mind.


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## Eeralai (Nov 17, 2005)

Grrr...I some how missed BSF's post earlier in this thread saying the same thing I just did.  So, what he said   That's why I love him!


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

Oh, by the way, buddy (Hand me that bottle again, will ya?) this isn't just knocking ya. The above is deadly serious.

Once you do begin dating, do NOT start forgetting to shower, forgetting to wear clean clothing, etc.

BTW, you're complaining about the redneck women in the bars... Here's another small piece of advice...

Unless you have a Wing Leader whose willing to baby-walk you through all of this, and a second wingman to help watch your back, stay out of bars. You don't take a newborn, duct tape him to the steering wheel, and put the car in the drive, do you?

Go to EVENTS! Try going to rodeos and the like.

Look, you want a big hint?

The next time a circus, carnival, rodeo comes through town, go to it, and apply for some work. It's hard, it's sweaty, it's tough, but guess what...

A few flaws won't bother those people. And yeah, while the women ain't paragons of society, they can teach you a lot.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Heh, actually, I sit around my house all day, sometimes just lat in bed.



GET OUT OF THE DAMN HOUSE! You're walking. Good. Walk to the library. Be the "Dude who feeds the ducks." Walk somewhere with a purpose.



> Then I get up and go for a walk, usually 5 to 10 miles a day.  The walks arent always much fun.  Within the last 2 months Ive had:
> 
> A car full of girls drive past me, yell "get a life" and throw a condom out the window at me.



You should have yelled back: "GET A VD TEST, [censored]!!"

Don't let some bimbo's who are going to end up in a trailer park with 9 kids, a husband that beats them, and meth-scars get you down.



> Someone yell "hey ugly" at me yes it was at me, thee was no one else around and they lauhed when i sped up and ran past)



Blow that off. Big deal. I've had kids ask thier mothers loud enough to hear: "Mommy, what happened to that man's face." and put up with initial looks of pity for years. Deal. Any loser with a couple grand can go through life with a plastic face with no character. Try being different.



> someone threw a full plasic cup of soda pop at me from moving van.  i got soaked, and it was pretty cold out



OK, that one would have PO'd me to the point I would have kicked the tail lights out of the van the next time I saw it, but you have Tourrette's, I have rage issues.

Stop dwelling on those!




> other than walking i do nothing.  ive lost 30 pounds since this time last year from just walking, 12 in the last 2 months.  i go give blood every couple weeks(well, whenever its time again), but that isnt really much.  every so often i have a friend who will call me to go out, but ive been hearing from her less and less.



But have you been calling her?

A relationship is a two way street.

You're losing weight. Call her, tell her that you're wanting to change yourself (Only YOU can do this) and want a little guidance. Ask her how her life is going, ask her what life has been like for her. You have a female friend. If you were TRULY repulsive, you would have never even had that.




> id move away like my brother did (he moved to pittsburgh, dont hear from him much anymore.  hes the confident charismatic one and always got me through everything,



Then call him. Tell him you want to change your life, but can't do it yourself. Tell him you need to sleep on the couch till you get on your feet.

BUT DON'T MAKE HIM CARRY HIM! Lean on him a little, while you learn to walk.



> and all my friends were friends of his) but i quite frankly couldnt survive without my mother.  i cant remember doctors appointments, when to take my medicine, and i certainly cant make my own appointments.  im quite a mess.  I know i lack confidence, i just have no idea how to gain any, especially when i dont have any reason to have any, and quite a lot of reason _not_ to have any.



WHAT?

You don't have a reason too?

You can't live without your mother?

Yes, you do have a reason too, otherwise, you wouldn't want to share your life with a woman.

You can remember all of those things. Have your mother or that female friend REMIND YOU, learn how to make the appointments. Start with remembering to take your medication. Get a digital watch with multiple alarms (I think Casio still makes one of those models) and every time it goes off, what the alarm is for scrolls across the screen. Program it.

There's step one.

learn to make your own appointments. When you make them, input them into your watch.

There is step two.

If mentally handicapped people with functional IQ's of 80 can learn to live on thier own, then you can too.

You're just having a loooong pity party, and have made excuses not to.

Put down the bottle. Your problems are still going to be there when you sober up. Take it from me, it doesn't solve jack, it just makes it so you don't care.

You can do it.

Stop saying you can't.


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## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

everyone, thank you so much.  im not really sure what im going to do, but knowing that people actually care is more help then any of you will evr know.  i dont realy have many freinds left, ive done something to drive them all away.  i dont even get to game anymore.  it really means so much to me that everyone is trying to help me.  yes im drunk.  dont think that its a frequent occurance tho, its just been the last week or so that its been like this.  

and yes, i bathe regularly, i look failry decent, at lest as far as ive been told (and as far as im concerned i like teh way i look.  if only i had some idea of what to do with my hair.  this girl i know has been saying she was going to give me a hiarcut for a while now but i can never get over there to have her do it.  no, shes got a boyfriend of a long time and is just being a friend  )  

well, the girl who i hang out with has a boyfriend who treats her like crap and wont leave his apartment no matter how much she wants him to, so she hangs out with me instead.  its kind of a delicate situation, and i cant really call very much.  shes gotten a job and hasnt been wanting to go out very much lately, though.  i just hope it isnt a permanent thing, and she isnt getting rid of me now that she has her own regular supply of money.  

i really hope it. 


yeah, im that pathetic.

ps:  ive only been really drinking a lot this past week, im not a very big drinker.  beer makes me gag, but sometimes you just wanna get drunk.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

wasn't posting drunk what got this thread started in the first place?


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> wasn't posting drunk what got this thread started in the first place?




AH LOVE YOooU MAAAAAAN!!!


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> everyone, thank you so much.  im not really sure what im going to do, but knowing that people actually care is more help then any of you will evr know.  i dont realy have many freinds left, ive done something to drive them all away.  i dont even get to game anymore.  it really means so much to me that everyone is trying to help me.  yes im drunk...




What the hell are you doing home drunk instead of being out picking up an Ugly Girl?

~FOCUS~


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> What the hell are you doing home drunk instead of being out picking up an Ugly Girl?
> 
> ~FOCUS~



I second this motion.

STOP DRINKING ALONE!

Get up tommorrow, run that crap out of your system, shower, shave off all your head (or get a flat top at the barber shop), and go out, get hammered, puke in the ditch as you stagger home, and pass out on the floor.

Me, I can drink at home like I am now. I'm married.

Or something.

But contrary to so many people on the internet's belief, women aren't going to fall out of the cieling and into your lap as you play WOW.

GET OFF YOUR BUTT! NOW!


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

seriously dude.  drowning your sorrows alone - let's focus in on that last word, "alone"!  that's the root of your problem!  get away from the computer!  go get you a woman!


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## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

well, i didnt get drunk alone.  i went out to get drunk.  there werent any women that were unnattended, so to say.  i stayed there for 3 hours.  but after  a while of sitting by myself drinking i got bored and depressed and walked back home (i cant drive, i walk everywhere )
i dont have much to talk about with people, beyond people saying that they like the music i play (i tend to take over the jukebox when im out, and i have varied and i guess good taste in music.  at leats i get complimented on it a lot.)


but i went out, and i did look, and i was approachable (at least i thought i was, the shallow skanks around here are a bit picky, tho)  


I went out and tried, i really did!

i think my best bet is to stop caring at all.  it aint gonna happen, so what the hell am i trying for?  tonight i got an email making me pretty much stop caring about the whole damn thing.  other people can have it, ill just make myself content to lay here and rot.

or something.  i dont care.  maybe this weekend.  but weekends theres such a crowd that i freak out and hyperventilate if i try to go out alone.  if i dont have at least one friend along as an escort i seriously panic.  and my friend that i usually go out with has pretty much decided im not worth her time anymore, i guess.


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## Buttercup (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> It probably helps that I'm funny and smart and tall and good looking and a good GM (that last one probably only helps a little).




I wouldn't say that you're tall.


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## FickleGM (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> well, i didnt get drunk alone.  i went out to get drunk.  there werent any women that were unnattended, so to say.  i stayed there for 3 hours.  but after  a while of *sitting by myself drinking* i got bored and depressed ...




Umm...well...you were getting drunk alone.  You were just in a public place.

Now, I'm not a bar frequenter, so I'll let others dispense the bar advice.  I just wanted to point out that you were getting drunk alone...


----------



## fusangite (Nov 17, 2005)

The problems Aaron is now articulating ie. "I can't leave town -- I must date women in this vile crappy little berg where people throw garbage at me" once again refer back to the fact that not having a woman is really not this guy's problem. 

I notice, Aaron, that you won't even engage with those of us who have identified your total dependence on your mother as the problem. If you believed that you were capable of making your own appointments and organizing your own meds, you could move to Pittsburg or some other urban centre where you know people. Others have noted that even if you don't want to move, there is still no reason you have to date in the same town as the one in which you reside. Internet dating, etc. make it possible to date outside town even while you are making the transition to a new place of residence.

Don't adapt to your town -- faking being a redneck is a talent rare enough that you can take it all the way to the presidency. Instead, go somewhere that you don't have to be a redneck. In the process of doing so, you'll finally cut your umbilical cord, a measure that is just a tad overdue.

EDIT: As for your latest attempt, girls in bars are a CR8 encounter; you need to start with CR1 encounters, thus the recommendation of internet dating and manga conventions.


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Actually, the working title for my first non-gaming-related book is _Stuff I Say_.  My wife lives in fear that somebody besides me will someday read it.



Write under a pen-name.  Like, say, Rel.


----------



## Xath (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> A car full of girls drive past me, yell "get a life" and throw a condom out the window at me.
> 
> someone yell "hey ugly" at me yes it was at me, thee was no one else around and they lauhed when i sped up and ran past)
> 
> someone threw a full plasic cup of soda pop at me from moving van.  i got soaked, and it was pretty cold out




That's not that uncommon.  When I was out walking, someone threw a full can of sprite out of the window and hit me in the head.  Another time, someone swerved in to hit a large puddle and soak me with a 6ft high wall of water.  Every day I walk about 2 miles to work, and at least 50% of the time, someone shouts something out the window or honks loudly to startle me.  Some people in cars feel that they are "superior" to those who walk and must show their superiority in some tangible way.  Really they're just jerks and you should ignore them.




> other than walking i do nothing.  ive lost 30 pounds since this time last year from just walking, 12 in the last 2 months.  i go give blood every couple weeks(well, whenever its time again), but that isnt really much.  every so often i have a friend who will call me to go out, but ive been hearing from her less and less.




Are there any girls at the blood drive?  I also donate blood every couple of weeks and (to explain sussinctly) the people donating always get a bonus to "shift my hosility rating one more step towards helpful."  




> id move away like my brother did (he moved to pittsburgh, dont hear from him much anymore.  hes the confident charismatic one and always got me through everything, and all my friends were friends of his) but i quite frankly couldnt survive without my mother.  i cant remember doctors appointments, when to take my medicine, and i certainly cant make my own appointments.  im quite a mess.  I know i lack confidence, i just have no idea how to gain any, especially when i dont have any reason to have any, and quite a lot of reason _not_ to have any.




What about doing a step by step?  Step 1, get one of those 7 day pill keepers and hang it on the wall next to your front door.  That way, you can remember to take your pills on your own.  Why can't you make your own doctor's appointments?  Do you not have your own health insurance?  If you can't remember appointments, get a whiteboard and also mount it by your front door.  Put your keys on it so you remember to look at it every day.  It will get you in the habit of remembering to do things.

Once you get in the swing of things, you'll realize that you're capable of doing all sorts of things for yourself, and separation will get easier and easier.  If you want to go to Pittsburg, why not see if your brother will let you move in with him for a transitional period.  Don't stay with him for long, just until you find a job and your own apartment.  If you need the security of having someone close by, see if you can find an apartment in the same building.  If your low on confidence, a partial reason is because you feel as though you have to depend on someone for everything.  Every step towards independence is a step towards confidence.


----------



## Xath (Nov 17, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Those pretty girls are crap in the sack. They're lazy, self-indulgent, and expect having a body to be the whole experience.




So you're saying that there are no pretty girls on ENWorld?   

But seriously, Rel and Tefflon Billy, I love you both.  

(TB, do you think having a belt buckle that looks like it belongs to the Flash will really help send the right....message?)


----------



## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say that you're tall.




I was comparing myself to you.


----------



## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> But seriously, Rel and Tefflon Billy, I love you both.




"...Wanna go?"


  But seriously, Xath, those guys honking and yelling are not doing so because you are ugly or pathetic.  They are doing so because a certain segment of the male population has adopted the notion that a *honk*, a "wolf whistle" or a hearty "Yo BAY BEEE!" constitute valid pickup lines.

I'm not saying that I'm too respectful of women to stoop to that.  I'm saying that I've never heard of it working.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 17, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> (TB, do you think having a belt buckle that looks like it belongs to the Flash will really help send the right....message?)



 

PLEASE REMIT:

Item:  One (1) 17" Optiquest Full-Color Computer Monitor

Cost:  $189.95

Bill To:  Xath

Reason:  Item shorted out due to sudden unexpected contact with rapidly projected hot caffeinated beverage.


----------



## reveal (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L on the way into work today, I heard two songs that completely fit your situation. Read the lyrics and take the advice to heart. It will not fail you.

*Standing Outside the Fire* by Garth Brooks

_We call them cool
Those hearts that have no scars to show
The ones that never do let go
And risk it the tables being turned

We call them fools
Who have to dance within the flame
Who chance the sorrow and the shame
That always come with getting burned

But you got to be tough when consumed by desire
'Cause it's not enough just to stand outside the fire
We call them strong
Those who can face this world alone
Who seem to get by on their own
Those who will never take the fall

We call them weak
Who are unable to resist
The slightest chance love might exist
And for that forsake it all

They're so hell bent on giving, walking a wire
Convinced it's not living if you stand outside the fire

Chorus:
Standing outside the fire
Standing outside the fire
Life is not tried it is merely survived
If you're standing outside the fire

There's this love that is burning
Deep in my soul
Constantly yearning to get out of control
Wanting to fly hiher and higher
I can't abide standing outside the fire_

*If you Wanna be Happy* by Jimmy Soul

_If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

A pretty woman makes her husband look small
And very often causes his downfall
As soon as he married her and then she starts
To do the things that will break his heart

But if you make an ugly woman your wife
A-you'll be happy for the rest of your life
An ug-a-ly woman cooks meals on time
And she'll always give you peace of mind

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

[Sax solo]

Don't let your friends say you have no taste
Go ahead and marry anyway
Though her face is ugly, her eyes don't match
Take it from me, she's a better catch

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

[Spoken]
Say man!
Hey baby!
I saw your wife the other day!
Yeah?
Yeah, an' she's ug-leeee!
Yeah, she's ugly, but she sure can cook, baby!
Yeah, alright!

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you_


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I'm saying that I've never heard of it working.



But not for lack of Rel's trying!


----------



## reveal (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> "...Wanna go?"
> 
> 
> But seriously, Xath, those guys honking and yelling are not doing so because you are ugly or pathetic.  They are doing so because a certain segment of the male population has adopted the notion that a *honk*, a "wolf whistle" or a hearty "Yo BAY BEEE!" constitute valid pickup lines.
> ...




I always heard screeching tires made chicks hot.


----------



## Xath (Nov 17, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> PLEASE REMIT:
> 
> Item:  One (1) 17" Optiquest Full-Color Computer Monitor
> 
> ...




 

Liar!  I've seen your computer.  You're still working with one of dem' new-fangled Apple IIe's.


----------



## Xath (Nov 17, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I always heard screeching tires made chicks hot.




Only if they're caught under them.  And that's in the temperature/temper sense.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 17, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> Liar!  I've seen your computer.  You're still working with one of dem' new-fangled Apple IIe's.



Again with the old jokes!

I'm off to get more coffee - the cold always bothers my rheumatism in the morning.   

Warrior Poet


----------



## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> But not for lack of Rel's trying!




I'm afraid you've got the wrong guy.  When I see hot women walking down the street, I confine my reaction to churlish, immature remarks made within the confines of the car.  My top five list probably looks something like:

5) "Da DAYUM!"
4) "Awwww Yeah!"
3) "Would you look at that!?" (this one seems particularly stupid when I'm by myself)
2) "Work that thang, girlfriend!"
1) "I'd hit it!"

Not my best material, I know, but at least I'm not inflicting it on her.


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

ahh, to be associated with ugly girls and garth brooks in reveals mind!


and were friends, you can just call me aaron.

or bonehead, whichever you prefer.  never had a nickname, actually.


----------



## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Aaron L on the way into work today, I heard two songs that completely fit your situation. Read the lyrics and take the advice to heart. It will not fail you.
> 
> *Standing Outside the Fire* by Garth Brooks




I agree totally.  One lyric that sums up my philosophy on life is from Allison Krause & Union Station's "The Lucky One".  It says, "The next best thing to playing and winning is playing and losing."

By golly I think I'll play that song right now...


----------



## reveal (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I'm afraid you've got the wrong guy.  When I see hot women walking down the street, I confine my reaction to churlish, immature remarks made within the confines of the car.  My top five list probably looks something like:
> 
> 5) "Da DAYUM!"
> 4) "Awwww Yeah!"
> ...




Next time try rolling the windows down.


----------



## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Next time try rolling the windows down.




I don't drive-by flirt.  I only flirt face to face or online.  Like this:

"How YOU doin', Queen D? "

And besides, what would I do if one of these girls fell for my childish come-ons?  I'd be like the dog who caught the Buick.  I'm long out of the "picking up chicks" game and try to focus my efforts on getting laid around the house.


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> That's not that uncommon.  When I was out walking, someone threw a full can of sprite out of the window and hit me in the head.  Another time, someone swerved in to hit a large puddle and soak me with a 6ft high wall of water.  Every day I walk about 2 miles to work, and at least 50% of the time, someone shouts something out the window or honks loudly to startle me.  Some people in cars feel that they are "superior" to those who walk and must show their superiority in some tangible way.  Really they're just jerks and you should ignore them.



Indeed.  Besides, unless it was a _used_ condom, what's the big deal?  Hey, free condom!


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

but if youve never actually had a use for a condom, and dont have a need for one in the forseeable future, it isnt quite so nice.


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Hey, better to have one and not need one then need one and not have one.

Trust me; I've been there.


----------



## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> but if youve never actually had a use for a condom, and dont have a need for one in the forseeable future, it isnt quite so nice.




Repeat after me, Aaron:  "The glass is half FULL."


----------



## Xath (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> but if youve never actually had a use for a condom, and dont have a need for one in the forseeable future, it isnt quite so nice.




That's the outlook that gives you serious negatives to your "lay-a-tude" factor.  You should have picked up the condom, waved it, and asked them if they wanted to help you or if that was an offer.  It wouldn't have gotten you in bed with them, but it would help them see that you aren't a door mat.  

[cliche]People do not have sex with door mats.  They walk all over them.  [/cliche]


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Lay-a-tude factor.  I like that.


----------



## reveal (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Repeat after me, Aaron:  "The glass is half FULL."




The "half full" attitude really doesn't help when it relates to condoms.


----------



## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> The "half full" attitude really doesn't help when it relates to condoms.




You're so funny, reveal.


----------



## reveal (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> but if youve never actually had a use for a condom, and dont have a need for one in the forseeable future, it isnt quite so nice.




Here's a great line from some comedian:

I was in the shopping mall and there was this UPS guy with a cart full of condom boxes. He was delivering to a store and he was really embarassed about it. I wish I was that guy. I would've acted like I was in a hurry, telling people "Out of the way, people, I got a big weekend coming up. Places to go, people to do. Move it!"


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Nov 17, 2005)

I'm probably gonna get bashed, but I can take it.  Why is it every one of these threads turns into a "oh po' pitiful me" discussion?  You don't like yourself; get off your ass and change it.  You want a girlfriend, get off your ass and go get one.  You think you're depressed; get off your ass and get help.

Look, I'm 42 years old.  I weigh over 350 pounds.  I have limp that may be permanent after a really bad accident I had 10 months ago.  After 15 years, I'm getting divorced. I have a job that pays just enough to get by on with little chance for advancement.  But ya know what?  Every day above ground is a good day.  Live your life, don't wait for someone to live it for you, and don't live your life for someone else.

There are women out there for everyone.  I'm not even considering dating yet, but at the urging of some friends, I posted a Yahoo personal just to see what women my age are doing and are looking for.  I've had six... yes SIX hits so far, and have made friendly connections with a couple of women already, w/out even meeting  face to face yet.  One of them is even a gamer who works in the industry.  I told her I wasn't really ready to date, but it's always good to make a new friend who shares a hobby, and she's cool with that.

So get up, get out, get busy.  You are (or should be) in control of your own destiny. In short, get off your ass.


----------



## Citizen Mane (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> They are doing so because a certain segment of the male population has adopted the notion that a *honk*, a "wolf whistle" or a hearty "Yo BAY BEEE!" constitute valid pickup lines.



[hijack]One girl I dated used to walk two miles into school and told me that the catcalls from passing cars changed with the seasons — like, around Halloween/Thanksgiving, people started yelling "Hey, PUMPKIN!" This just reminded me of that.[/hijack]


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> The "half full" attitude really doesn't help when it relates to condoms.



My understanding is that some guy's loads won't actually fill a condom up.


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

oh bash all you want.  i just dont really care anymore.  the thread was a mistake i made when i was drunk, and i would have deleted it if i could have before anyone saw it.  im not looking for sympathy, or even advice, ive given up and im just watching people make jokes back and forth now.  not healthy, not manly, certainly pathetic, but a lot easier and less painful.  ive managed to numb myself in teh past and im just working on it again.  i had a brief (well a year long) moment of foolishness that i think ive been forced past, so i should be able to get back to normal now and stop caring again.


----------



## reveal (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> oh bash all you want.  i just dont really care anymore.  the thread was a mistake i made when i was drunk, and i would have deleted it if i could have before anyone saw it.  im not looking for sympathy, or even advice, ive given up and im just watching people make jokes back and forth now.  not healthy, not manly, certainly pathetic, but a lot easier and less painful.  ive managed to numb myself in teh past and im just working on it again.  i had a brief (well a year long) moment of foolishness that i think ive been forced past, so i should be able to get back to normal now and stop caring again.




If you didn't want sympathy or advice, you should've stop posting after you admitting you were drunk. Now you just look like an attention whore who says "I wasn't serious" after being told to shut up, stop whining, and actually try to talk to people.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> oh bash all you want.  i just dont really care anymore.  the thread was a mistake i made when i was drunk, and i would have deleted it if i could have before anyone saw it.  im not looking for sympathy, or even advice, ive given up and im just watching people make jokes back and forth now.  not healthy, not manly, certainly pathetic, but a lot easier and less painful.  ive managed to numb myself in teh past and im just working on it again.  i had a brief (well a year long) moment of foolishness that i think ive been forced past, so i should be able to get back to normal now and stop caring again.



 It's your life.  Do with it what you wish.  The long and short of it is that only you can really make a happy change in your life.  YOu can either pretend not to care, which is honestly the way it is when people claim to just not care anymore, or you can effing change it.  It takes strength, it takes faith in yourself, and it takes some courage, but you have to ask yourself is pretending not to care about being unhappy worth being unhappy?

Like I said though, it's your life.  Good luck with whatever decision you make, since if you decide to wallow then you'll need it.  Not trying to be overly harsh, but that's just the way it is.


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> oh bash all you want.  i just dont really care anymore.  the thread was a mistake i made when i was drunk, and i would have deleted it if i could have before anyone saw it.  im not looking for sympathy, or even advice, ive given up and im just watching people make jokes back and forth now.  not healthy, not manly, certainly pathetic, but a lot easier and less painful.  ive managed to numb myself in teh past and im just working on it again.  i had a brief (well a year long) moment of foolishness that i think ive been forced past, so i should be able to get back to normal now and stop caring again.



So, you're gonna ignore all the genuinely good advice here and turn back to your self-pity?  Nice.   :\


----------



## Dark Jezter (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> oh bash all you want.  i just dont really care anymore.  the thread was a mistake i made when i was drunk, and i would have deleted it if i could have before anyone saw it.  im not looking for sympathy, or even advice, ive given up and im just watching people make jokes back and forth now.  not healthy, not manly, certainly pathetic, but a lot easier and less painful.  ive managed to numb myself in teh past and im just working on it again.  i had a brief (well a year long) moment of foolishness that i think ive been forced past, so i should be able to get back to normal now and stop caring again.




Aaron, nobody here is bashing you.  Some of the advice has been very blunt, but that's because a lot of the posters here believe that coddling you and pussyfooting around the issue around isn't going to help your situation any.

The fact that this thread has gotten so many responses should show you that people here like having you around and really want to help you improve your situation.  I know that you're embarrased right now, but I can assure that myself (and I'm sure most or all of the other posters here) don't think less of you than we did prior to this thread.  You're a pretty cool guy, and we want to help you make your life better.

I also know that it's easier to give advice than it is to actually follow it.  Making major changes to your lifestyle is always hard.  Humans are creatures of habit, after all, and we don't like to leave our comfort zone.  If you can commit yourself to improving your life, however, you will not regret it.  I've seen it happen to other guys in situations similar to yours, and there's no reason why it can't happen to you.

But if you're going to ignore all of the (mostly good) advice that people have given you and sink into a pit of apathy and despair, then you have nobody to blame for your situation but yourself.  Not your geographical location, not the cruel universe, only yourself.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I'm long out of the "picking up chicks" game and try to focus my efforts on getting laid around the house.




Not enough guys quoting _THAT_ for truth.

But it is.


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

yeah, was just being snippy, i apologize.  i didnt mean it, im sorry.  bad mood and everything, and it even came across worse than i had intended.  i really just meant that if he wanted to bashme to go ahead, i dont care about people bashing me at this point because ive already invited it on myself.  i didnt mean to imply that i wasnt getting good advice and helpful stuff from everyone, because i am and just the fact that people are concerned makes me feel really good.  im really sorry if i offended all you guys.

but i was serious about sitting back and watching the jokes.  rel and reveal and josh and everyone are always real funny 

and im really sorry i didnt mean to seem ingrateful or like an attention whore or anything.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Nov 17, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> But if you're going to ignore all of the (mostly good) advice that people have given you and sink into a pit of apathy and despair, then you have nobody to blame for your situation but yourself.  Not your geographical location, not the cruel universe, only yourself.




Quoted for truth.


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

oh i already know i have no one to blame but myself, ive been trying to say that all and along im sorry if i made it seem like i was trying to blame anything else.  all the bad things in my life ive brought on myself in one way or another (well, maybe not the medical conditions) and i dont want to be someone that tries to blame all thier woes on everyone but themselves.  im fully responsible for my own doom, as it were.  but now i really am getting embarrassed so ill just shut up now.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Nov 17, 2005)

You're also responsible for you own salvation.  Like Rel said, the glass is half full.


----------



## The Shaman (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> The walks arent always much fun.  Within the last 2 months Ive had:
> A car full of girls drive past me, yell "get a life" and throw a condom out the window at me.
> someone yell "hey ugly" at me yes it was at me, thee was no one else around and they lauhed when i sped up and ran past)
> someone threw a full plasic cup of soda pop at me from moving van.  i got soaked, and it was pretty cold out.



Dude, that has nothing to do with you - that's just life in western Pennsylvania...

Before my lower back turned to linguini, I used to bicycle pretty much everywhere. I have had everything from sodas to dirty diapers thrown at me, had someone try to hit me with their car door, and had someone try to run me over - and I can't even begin to tell you the depth and breadth of expletives and other insults yelled at me as I'm just riding along.

Sad but true: many people are gobshites, and cars make gobshites into mega-gobshites.

This is the universe's way of letting you know who belongs in the gene pool and who doesn't - don't take it personally.







			
				Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> The Punisher called.  He wants his belt buckle back.



Priceless.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> oh i already know i have no one to blame but myself, ive been trying to say that all and along im sorry if i made it seem like i was trying to blame anything else.  all the bad things in my life ive brought on myself in one way or another (well, maybe not the medical conditions) and i dont want to be someone that tries to blame all thier woes on everyone but themselves.  im fully responsible for my own doom, as it were.  but now i really am getting embarrassed so ill just shut up now.



STAND UP FOR YOURSELF, DAMMIT!

Get up on your feet! LIFE IS PAIN! JESUS HATES YOU! THE GODDES THROWS DARTS AT YOUR PICTURE! STOP THE WHINING!

Quit being a damn baby, and stand up for yourself.

Wah, wah wah, it's all my fault.

GET DOWN OFF THE CROSS, JESUS IS BACK FROM THE REST ROOM!

Look, you have two choices, and while we may provide advice, only you can make the difference.

Either listen to this advice and change your life.

Or continue being pathetic in your My Little Pony pity party, finding ways to weasel out of changing your life, and never get anywhere.

It's up to you.



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> oh i already know i have no one to blame but myself, ive been trying to say that all and *I'm not* trying to blame anything else.  all the bad things in my life ive brought on myself in one way or another (well, maybe not the medical conditions) and i dont want to be someone that tries to blame all thier woes on everyone but themselves.  im fully responsible for my own doom, as it were. *I want help, and if you want to flame me, go somewhere else and do it, you retarded lemur fetus, since I'm actually interested in improving myself.*




That's how it should read.

My god, Man, log onto a board without the nicey-nice rules ENWorld has (May I suggest RPG.net???) and scan the threads. Learn from the masters there. Pick a topic that you KNOW will generate flames. Then, post that topic, and defend your stance to the death.

Do NOT apologize. EVERYONE hates the guy who apologizes for everything. Apologize when you get me arrested with you and we're sitting the jail cell and I say: "She didn't look like no cop." Apologize to me when we're outside the club and I'm trying to get the beer bottle shards out of my forehead because the chick you goosed hit me with her beer. DON'T APOLOGIZE FOR BEING YOU!

Either take this advice, try to change yourself, or go down in flames.

And honestly, it makes no difference to me. I'll still be ugly, with a bad attittude, and married.

And if you think having a wife or girlfriend means not asking for sex, you're a fool.


----------



## FickleGM (Nov 17, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> This is *the universe's* way of letting you know who belongs in the gene pool and who doesn't - don't take it personally.Priceless.




Queen D, can you tell him to find a different way to let us know?


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 17, 2005)

I love it when Warlord Ralts shows up to a thread!

"Give my creation . . . LIIIIIFE!!!"

 

"We had a talk about these things but I didn't say it in thunder.  Ma'am . . . listen to the thunder." -Wild Bill Hickock, _Deadwood_

Warrior Poet


----------



## FickleGM (Nov 17, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Do NOT apologize. EVERYONE hates the guy who apologizes for everything. Apologize when you get me arrested with you and we're sitting the jail cell and I say: "She didn't look like no cop." Apologize to me when we're outside the club and I'm trying to get the beer bottle shards out of my forehead because the chick you goosed hit me with her beer. DON'T APOLOGIZE FOR BEING YOU!




I just realized, I am someone who apologizes too much.  I'm sorry.



> And if you think having a wife or girlfriend means not asking for sex, you're a fool.




Da Truth (although, replace the word asking with the word pestering   )


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## dorentir (Nov 17, 2005)

Hello;
I haven't read all of the past entries, only the first page.  I'm not qualified to make any diagnosis but I would really suggest to you that you get a counselor of some type.  A few years ago I was overwhelmed with stress and my wife finally talked me into going to see a therapist.  It was the best thing I ever did for myself even though it is still a long and painful process.  I go to see him every week.
I've discovered with my therapist's help that I've suffered from depression and mood swings my entire life and didn't know it.  As a stranger I'd like to offer you words of support, but they won't help much.  You need to do some work with a professional --- stress and depression can kill you --- it's a serious condition --- and my telling you to "cheer up" or "look on the bright side" might help you feel better for a moment, but from my own experience I know that your black mood will return --- as bad or worse than ever.  Ironically, worrying about my depression made me feel more depressed.  I'd tell myself to "buck up" and later feel even worse because the fact that I was depressed seemed like it was "my fault" and "if I wanted to, I could shake this depression, blah, blah, blah."  My experience is that depression becomes like an infection -- it mutates and fights to preserve itself.  First you feel unhappy and you think you ought to be able to pull yourself out of your black mood... but you fail and then blame yourself, driving yourself deeper into depression.
I'm no expert on matters of romance or love, but I believe you can't love someone else unless you love yourself first.  Depression makes you want to believe that you have not found "love" in your life because you don't deserve love, or no one could love you, or whatever.  I know those things because I have been there.  My wife insisted I go to a therapist because she just didn't know what to do about my black moods.  If I hadn't agreed to go, she might have left me.
I also go through "good phases" where I am able to fool myself into thinking that I don't suffer from depression  The fact that sometimes I felt fine convinced me that I didn't need any help -- that my moods were just something passing and I would get over them.  But the depression will return --- I know I will be working with my therapist for at least another few years, maybe more.  I'm not out of the woods yet but I'm miles ahead of where I was a few years ago.
I also know that drugs perscribed by a psychiatrist have made a very positive change in my life.
On the first page of this thread (the only one I read), there were some good pieces of advice --- like joining social clubs like churches, etc.  I'm not a religious man, but in some of my worst times, before I started getting the help I needed, I enrolled in some studio art classes... and it was really good.  I've always enjoyed creative pursuits but when my black moods hit me I didn't even want to pick up a pencil to doodle on scrap paper -- I had no creative energy.  But having the structure of a class, with other people there, really helped to spark my creativity.  Realize that there were times when I didn't want to go to class, but since I was paying for it I dragged myself there... and in retrospect, I think it was really good for me.  Depression isolates you --- remember what I said about depression being a kind of diesease that seeks to preserve itself.  So when you are isolated, depression will feel much stronger which is why depressed people get so isolated.  Depression itself wants to keep you isolated so that it can have you all to itself.
OK.  Enough of my lecturing.  I just read your first post and realized that you and I are a lot alike.  You are not alone.  But there is help.  My suggestion -- find a therapist and start going to regular sessions first.  Ask your doctor about Xanax or Celexa (I take Celexa every day).  If your MD won't help you (many family doctors seem reluctant to perscribe Celexa), go to a psychologist (my therapist does not perscribe; I go to a psychologist for that).  You are not helpless but you cannot do this by yourself.  And you would be astounded at how many people suffer from the same problem --- but unlike suffering from arthritis or asthma, suffering from depression isn't an illness that most people in general society want to talk about.  So go to the experts.  They will help you.


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## FickleGM (Nov 17, 2005)

Ok, after reading another post on this very forum, I am finally able to prescribe a remedy - Panexa, it could save your life - or not.


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> but i was serious about sitting back and watching the jokes.  rel and reveal and josh and everyone are always real funny



I have found my purpose in life...


----------



## reveal (Nov 17, 2005)

dorentir said:
			
		

> So go to the experts.  They will help you.




Will they help you find the Enter key?


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Ok, after reading another post on this very forum, I am finally able to prescribe a remedy - Panexa, it could save your life - or not.



Seconded.  Or maybe "quoted for truth." Panexa made me the man I am today.  Before Panexa, I was a 400-lbs. blob who hated sunlight, girls and showers.  Now I'm a highly successful male stripper and pr0n star.


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## reveal (Nov 17, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Seconded.  Or maybe "quoted for truth." Panexa made me the man I am today.  Before Panexa, I was a 400-lbs. blob who hated sunlight, girls and showers.  Now I'm a highly successful male stripper and pr0n star.




With Excessively Floppy Tail Syndrome.


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

well all, i DO plan on trying to chnge, and i have been listening (ok, reading) the advice, and i really appreciate it.  its going to be very hard and i dont knwo how long or how many tries its going to take, but i am going to try.  cant promise results, but i will try.  

depression is a serious problem for me, yes.  i was taking orizacfor a while and maybe i shold see about geting back on it.  not sure.  

and i had to apologize for being an ass   but you see my problem, i have all the masculinity of a little girl.  thats gonna be the hardest thing for me to change around.

now, if i could just get my funny back.  i swear, i used to be funny.  i had a webpage devoted to my jokes my everquest guld put up back a few years ago.  i seem to have lost it.  or maybe im just funnier over live internet chat.... could be.  

but one thing:  i dont think im EVER going to be the brash bold leader type.  is it ok to be a quiet shy confident guy?  does that work at all?  that will be my first step, at least.

seriously guys, i got no clue.  and im horrible at following things. (ADD at work)  I need to build steps for myself to follow.   and spell them out for myself in small words that i wont forget.  (not saying im dumb, im supposed to be quite intelligent.  i was in gifted in highschool, which doesnt mean much, but it IS very funny because i was also in learning disabled classes at the same time because they provided the LD room and teacher to aid me if i ever needed it.  i usually just helped her with the other students, but i was in gifted and LD classes at the same time.  sorry, just amuses me still)  

see, im talking myself up to try to build up some confidence 


i think my big goal will be a kiss befre i turn 30 in 4 months.  god doesnt that sound awful?


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## FickleGM (Nov 17, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Seconded.  Or maybe "quoted for truth." Panexa made me the man I am today.  Before Panexa, I was a 400-lbs. blob who hated sunlight, girls and showers.  Now I'm a highly successful male stripper and pr0n star.




I was a skinny, pasty nerd and now I have women grabbing my crotch in public (my wife is not happy with Panexa).  Oh yeah, I can now lick through steel...


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 17, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, I can now lick through steel...



Maybe *that's* why your wife's not happy with Panexa.


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## reveal (Nov 17, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> Maybe *that's* why your wife's not happy with Panexa.




Now if it were the other way around.......


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## FickleGM (Nov 17, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> Maybe *that's* why your wife's not happy with Panexa.




Maybe the prehensile colon will help...


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> I love it when Warlord Ralts shows up to a thread!
> 
> "Give my creation . . . LIIIIIFE!!!"
> 
> ...



Yeah, I think I remember being called "The drunken emotionally abusive uncle nobody really wants in the family, but has."

I don't mind someone asking for help, hell, I'll be one of the first to help you and listen to your problems (There goes my internet badass membership, I'll have to turn in my all caps keyboard and my lexicon) but I cannot abide someone who just sits around snivellling and whining and won't even try to help him/herself and expects all the work to be done for them.

I swear to all the Nine Gods of Entropy, I cannot STAND self-pitying drama queens who just want to throw themselves into the pity pig pen and wallow around in it. If you want to tell me about your problems, FINE! But living your life in a constant pity party is about attractive in a friend as them bathing in a cesspool.

Everyone throws themselves a pity party now and then. Even I do, but what annoys me is the people who sit there saying "I can't!" and excusing it with whatever medical diagnosis.

Guess what, I see mentally handicapped people all the time leading good healthy lives.

I know plenty of physcially disabled people who have full, happy lives.

People who want to lay on the cross like some kind of modern day Pity-Me Christ really annoy me.

Now if this guy wants help, I'll help him. If I lived nearby, I'd probably even take him out for beers and to the mall.

--------------------------------------

Now, back to him. That's enough about me to make a dog retch...

--------------------------------------

I noticed, you are falling into the Cynical Lonely Guy Trap (CR 15) that many people do. You're automatically writing people off as "bitches" or "skanky ho's" just because they don't flock over to you.

Cruising for a date is more than sitting in the corner of the bar plugging money into the jukebox and staring at your drink. I saw those guys all the time in the bar, and not ONCE did I ever see them go home with ANYONE, not even the local barfly.

Look around. Make eye contact with people. Go play DARTS OR POOL OR SOMETHING!

That's just it. By sitting in the same place, you are advertising you: A) Want to be left alone B) ARe a loser C) Have severe problems D) Are waiting for someone E) Are possibly that murderer they've heard about F) Are a vampire.

Go play darts. I've met women that I introduced to the back seat of my car for some comparisons on body temperature at the dart board. Women love darts for some reason. Go play pool. You'll have more competition, but then you can strike up conversations like: "How did you make that shot?" When not shooting (for God's sake, do NOT talk during a shot or stand in direct line of vision) pool players LOVE to talk.

Stay away from ANY game where you can do it solo. The tempatation will be great, grasshopper, for you to remain solo.

Women watch, and if you can't socially interact with another guy, they know you won't be going out places and taking them making J00 == L053R!

And like everyone here has said, don't worry if she's a skank. And while you're at it, delete that from your lexicon.

Get rid of slut, whore, ho, and all the other stuff.

You're asking a woman to share a part of her body and are mentally calling her names? <rolling up newspaper> NO! *whap* BAD GRASSHOPPER! NO! *whap* Unless she asks you for money, treat her nicely and with respect, even in your own mind.

Repeat after me...

The women who want to share themselves with me, be it necking in the back of the bar or full throw down flesh pressing, are friendly. Maybe over friendly, but friendly. They are nice to me, and I should be nice to them.


Oh, and on that topic...

The first time she so much as mumbles stop, slow down, or no, stand up, step back, button up, and sit at least 10 feet away. Believe me, you'll be a lot better off.


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## Buttercup (Nov 17, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> I just realized, I am someone who apologizes too much.  I'm sorry.


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## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> but you see my problem, i have all the masculinity of a little girl.  thats gonna be the hardest thing for me to change around.



Try switching to a diet of raw testosterone.


			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> but one thing:  i dont think im EVER going to be the brash bold leader type.  is it ok to be a quiet shy confident guy?  does that work at all?  that will be my first step, at least.



Sure, that works just fine.  There's a fine line between "brash bold leader type" and "".  Quiet confidence is probably a better place to be, frankly.  Although quiet != shy.  I don't think shy and confident really fit in the same sentence without a negative in there too, as in, "he's quiet and confident, not shy."

EDIT:  Didn't realize that word was filtered; "donkeyhole?"  Naw, that just sounds stupid.


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## fusangite (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> well all, i DO plan on trying to chnge, and i have been listening (ok, reading) the advice, and i really appreciate it.  its going to be very hard and i dont knwo how long or how many tries its going to take, but i am going to try.  cant promise results, but i will try.



Then may I suggest you begin by developing a routine for administering your meds and making your appointments yourself. If you're not independent enough to survive without daily maternal intervention, creating opportunities for using condoms will be all the more challenging.







> depression is a serious problem for me, yes.  i was taking orizacfor a while and maybe i shold see about geting back on it.  not sure.



I don't know much about the interactions anti-depressants have with anti-convulsants or whatever it is that you are also on but there is a big menu of anti-depressants out there so I'm sure there is one that won't produce adverse drug interactions. Out of curiosity, what, other than negative drug interactions, could be the downside of doing anti-depressants? I'll bet they'd cost less than the money you're currently spending on self-medication through alcohol and tobacco.







> and i had to apologize for being an ass   but you see my problem, i have all the masculinity of a little girl.  thats gonna be the hardest thing for me to change around.



Aaron, you're being passive-aggressive when you say stuff like this. And you know it. Your previous statement is calculated to articulate the highest-possible level of resistance to what people are saying here, couched in the language of total submission and compliance. You're having an argument with us in which your position is that you are an irredeemable loser and our position is that you are not. This statement is a clever tactic to try and force us to agree with you. Fortunately, many of us are very experienced with this particular kind of discourse and refuse to let you win. 

You are unhappy. You want to believe that you have no control over this unhappiness; indeed, you want to believe that you have no control in your life, period. So, when you fight with people, your aggression is cloaked in a discourse of powerlessness. That's because you want to have power without responsibility, without agency. You want things to turn out the way you want without making yourself responsible for the outcome.







> but one thing:  i dont think im EVER going to be the brash bold leader type.  is it ok to be a quiet shy confident guy?  does that work at all?  that will be my first step, at least.



Start with trying to become an independent, responsible guy. See what kind of person you are once you have taken charge of your meds and your living situation.







> seriously guys, i got no clue.  and im horrible at following things. (ADD at work)  I need to build steps for myself to follow.   and spell them out for myself in small words that i wont forget.



1. Ask your mom to give you a list of all your doctors' phone numbers and addresses.
2. Ask your mom for custody of all your meds.
3. Call the people who run your disability program and ask if they, or an agency they can direct you to, can train you in setting up a routine for taking your medication.
4. Set up a profile on Yahoo! and other free internet dating sites.
5. Make an appointment with your psychiatrist about getting back on anti-depressants. Also ask him/her for advice on setting up your own medication-taking routine.
6. Book a time to visit your brother in Pittsburg and get the lay of the land there in terms of rent, cost of living, etc. to see what it would take to move there.
7. Call your female friend whom you've been losing touch with.







> i think my big goal will be a kiss befre i turn 30 in 4 months.  god doesnt that sound awful?



Let me recommend a goal that you can choose to achieve, that does not have to be contingent on another person but will nevertheless help you to take women down off that pedestal:
8. While you're in Pittsburg, go to a strip bar and buy yourself a lapdance as an early 30th birthday present; actually, try and talk your brother into buying it for you.

In my view, people should only set goals if they can achieve them with or without other people's cooperation. A goal totally dependent on someone else agreeing to something isn't a goal; it's a hope, and, in my view, a hope waiting to be dashed.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> well all, i DO plan on trying to chnge, and i have been listening (ok, reading) the advice, and i really appreciate it.  *its going to be very hard and i dont knwo how long or how many tries its going to take, but i am going to try.*  cant promise results, but i will try.



There you go, little soldier. Chin up and eyes front.

First thing we're going to do is work on your meekness.

See that little key next to the Z key? That's capitals. Use it. It's a start in being forefront, and won't offend anyone. And I'm not being mean or sarcastic, even your posting style is submissive to the point where an S&M dom would knock over a crowd of nuns with a bus to get at you.



> depression is a serious problem for me, yes.  i was taking orizacfor a while and maybe i shold see about geting back on it.  not sure.



That's something for a doctor, not me.

BUT...

I have a friend who has slight problems with crashing into depression for days at time. What's sad, is he gets a lot of ladies at this time.

Here's what you do:

Buy some black clothing. Memorize angsty poetry. Raid your mom's makeup for white foundation and black eyeshadow/lipstick. Dress all in black, go to local goth club (even if you have to ride the bus, trust me, people leave goth's alone on the Greyhound most of the time) and be depressed. The goth-babes will flock to you. Talk about how you feel you want to cut yourself. Revel in your depression.

Then go home, look in the mirror. Wash your face. Look again. Feel free to bust up laughing in the shower as you realize just what a pretentious ass you were.

It's fun. And can be healthy.



> and i had to apologize for being an ass   but you see my problem, i have all the masculinity of a little girl.  thats gonna be the hardest thing for me to change around.



<rolls up newspaper> NO! *whap* BAD GRASSHOPPER! NO! *whap*

Reach between your legs. Feel that? You have more masculinity than a girl.

And quit apologizing.

Your masuclenity isn't a problem. Being masculine isn't the end all be all of a relationship.

It's your self confidence, which right now, looks like the Hindenburg. Going down in flames.

Trust us, Grasshopper, you ahve the skills to post on the internet, that puts you above the hordes of mouth breathing slackjaws the world is populated with.



> now, if i could just get my funny back.  i swear, i used to be funny.  i had a webpage devoted to my jokes my everquest guld put up back a few years ago.  i seem to have lost it.  or maybe im just funnier over live internet chat.... could be.



NO! *whap* BAD GRASSHOPPER! NO! *whap*




> but one thing:  i dont think im EVER going to be the brash bold leader type.  is it ok to be a quiet shy confident guy?  does that work at all?  that will be my first step, at least.



The quiet shy confident guy? He's the ****** pirate! He may be quiet, shy in public, but inside there, he's swaggering around with his peg leg, specially outfitted artificial hand, with a stripper dancing on his shoulder going "Yar, give me yer booty!"

You can't fake being the brash bold leader type. It's not something you can learn. You either are or aren't.

But the quiet shy confident guy is the guy that women like from what I've seen.



> seriously guys, i got no clue.  and im horrible at following things. (ADD at work)



NO! *whap* BAD GRASSHOPPER! NO! *whap*

You can follow short things, if they are quickly accomplished. Otherwise, you lose interest quickly if it doesn't keep you mentally stimulated. You get bored easily and skip projects. It might be ADD, who knows, but hey...

Ohh, shiney!

You aren't sure how to proceed, and so are asking for advice. When it comes to women, you're more clueless than the rest of us and...

HEY! A balloon!


> I need to build steps for myself to follow.   and spell them out for myself in small words that i wont forget.  (not saying im dumb, im supposed to be quite intelligent.  i was in gifted in highschool, which doesnt mean much, but it IS very funny because i was also in learning disabled classes at the same time because they provided the LD room and teacher to aid me if i ever needed it.  i usually just helped her with the other students, but i was in gifted and LD classes at the same time.  sorry, just amuses me still)
> 
> see, im talking myself up to try to build up some confidence
> 
> ...




Good goal!


> god doesnt that sound awful?



NO! *whap* BAD GRASSHOPPER! NO! *whap*

That's a good start.

If you are DEADLY serious about that, there's a lot of us that will walk you through the baby steps. Look at the post above mine. There's some good outlines.

AND STOP WITH THE PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE CRAP!

My first question: What kind of soap/aftershave/cologne do you use, and what does your wardrobe consist of?


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> i think my big goal will be a kiss befre i turn 30 in 4 months.  god doesnt that sound awful?




Nope, that dosen't sound awful.  It sounds like a step in the right direction.

Make sure you write down down your goal deadline on your calender or simply somewhere you can see it on a daily basis.  Every time you look at it, think to yourself "What have I done lately to help reach this goal?"

You can do this, Aaron.  We're all pulling for you.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

> 1. Ask your mom to give you a list of all your doctors' phone numbers and addresses.
> 2. Ask your mom for custody of all your meds.
> 3. Call the people who run your disability program and ask if they, or an agency they can direct you to, can train you in setting up a routine for taking your medication.
> 4. Set up a profile on Yahoo! and other free internet dating sites.
> ...



Put this on a word document.

Put checkboxes for yourself next to them.

Put words in Bold Helvitica 18

Print.

Tape to mirror.

Always remember the one true thing: "I am the ultimate tool using predator. With the proper tools, no other creature on the planet can stand before me. Even the mighty gorrilla falls before my might. I am a human, the ultimate tool using predator."


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

Here, consider this a gift.

And yes, I am an arrogant jackass with nothing better to do.

I finished the dishes, swept, mopped, vacuumed, folded laundry, so congradulations.

Now sit up straight!


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## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

I was just trying to be optimistic and a littl self deprecating, not passive/aggressive, honest!  

As for my clothes, I really need to get new ones.  They arent all that great, but honestly its the same things all nthe guys around here wear.  The only thing I have different is my bright red converse all stars, but i kinda like them, and i get compliments on them.  i use old spice aftershave.  I got some body spray recently, a generic kind because its all i could find at the time, but I use it.  If you have any advice on aftershave or similiar things Ill definately follow it immediately.  I also know I need a haircut desperately, my hair is thick mass of ungainlyness.  I just dont have a clue as to what to do with the mess.    

My grooming could probably use some improving.  I mean my hair and clothes, I shower and shave regularly, and I definately dont stink (at least I hope not!)


and skanks and such are NOT words I normally use, I was just in a foul mood at the time, and honestly the women I had seen that night definately fit the general description.  Dont worry that Im one to refer to women as "bitches."   At the worst Ill end up saying girls, but then Ill probably be saying guys instead of men, too.

And thanks for teh list hehe


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 17, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I've met women that I introduced to the back seat of my car for some comparisons on body temperature at the dart board.
> 
> The women who want to share themselves with me, be it necking in the back of the bar or full throw down flesh pressing, are friendly. Maybe over friendly, but friendly. They are nice to me, and I should be nice to them.
> 
> He may be quiet, shy in public, but inside there, he's swaggering around with his peg leg, specially outfitted artificial hand, with a stripper dancing on his shoulder going "Yar, give me yer booty!"



Dude, you rock.  

You were the electric shot of bad fun this thread needed! *pours a cold one, toasts Warlord Ralts*

Warrior Poet


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> I got some body spray recently, a generic kind because its all i could find at the time, but I use it.




If you can, try to find some TAG Body Spray.  I don't think it's as effective as the commercials would lead you to believe (I've never been tackled by women in the supermarket), but since I started wearing it, it _does_ seem like girls are paying more attention to me (and if I spray it on before a date, I seem to get a little more "attention" than I do if I don't wear it  ).


----------



## reveal (Nov 17, 2005)

Never give up, Aaron. There is someone out there for everyone. Love usually sneaks up on you when you least expect it. I've always believed there is a soulmate out there for everyone and, if you're lucky enough, you'll find them. Anyone can find love if they try hard enough. Anyone.

Edit:  Picture removed.


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> I also know I need a haircut desperately, my hair is thick mass of ungainlyness.  I just dont have a clue as to what to do with the mess.



I said I was going to shut up further on this thread with the suggestions.  So much for saying.

Dude, you don't have to know what to do with it:  that's what barbers/hair stylists are for!  What I recommend is going to get a haircut and asking the person who cuts your hair what to do with it, and then say, "OK, that sounds great.  Do it."  Then let the professional do their job.  You may not know what looks good on you (yet), but chances are they can help, and once they do, you're armed for the future.  When you get home, if you like the haircut (if you don't, it will grow back, unless you're going bald, in which case it's irrelevant), take a photo of yourself so that in the future you can go into a barbershop/hair salon anywhere in the country, hand them the photo, and say, "I want this haircut."

Same thing with clothes.  Go to a nice store (doesn't have to be super expensive, but frankly, if you're going to look . . . better . . . you're going to pay for it a bit.  That's o.k.  Good clothes are [mostly] well made, and will last a while) and ask the people there what would look good on you.  Better yet, ask a woman who works there what would look good on you, and then have her help you pick the stuff out.  Trust me, women know what looks good on men.  Which is not to say be a slave to what she says.  You still have to find the stuff that you like, BUT, that's why you talk to the salesperson, who will show you what looks good, and then ask you if you like it.  If they don't ask you that, and you don't like it, SAY SO, and find something else.  But use that resource!  Then, once again, you're armed for the future!

Warrior Poet


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## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> I also know I need a haircut desperately, my hair is thick mass of ungainlyness.  I just dont have a clue as to what to do with the mess.





Have you considered this?


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> As for my clothes, I really need to get new ones.



That right there tells me something. If you have the money for new clothing, and aren't buying it, it can be because you don't feel that you are worth it. (A common sign of long term depression that I've noticed, but probably isn't listed any where)

Start small, 2 pair of jeans, 2 T shirts, 2 button up shirts, 1 pair of slacks, 1 dress shirt, a tie.

Don't get the latest fashions in jeans, don't get T-shirts with logo's, designs, slogans. Go for 1 white one to wear under the button up shirts, one of another color. Grab two different colored T-shirts and ask the lady who works in the department better suits your coloring. Ask her if the color of the jeans fits your coloring, and ask if the button up shirts go with both the pants and your coloration. (I can't wear brown or green) With the slacks, go for black, and a dark gray dress shirt, and a tie that the sales lady thinks fits. Also purchase two flannel shirts, one blue, the other another dark color.

May I suggest Ross as the clothing store if your budget is tight.

Get a belt from either the Harley Davidson store, or from Hot Topic, in addition to two normal belts.

Buy a set of boots, buy a set of dress shoes.

Buy black socks for the DRESS SHOES and new socks. Those old socks need to go.

Get rid of your old underwear. Buy yourself jockey shorts. Get one or two plaid patterened one, then treat yourself to a pair of Homer Simpson or Spongebob ones. Wear those when the morning starts out like crap.

Others here can probably give you hotter fashion tips, but the above is a good set of everyday stuff.

And you don't have to wait for a job interview or something to dress in slacks, dress shirt, and tie. Sometimes just going grocery shopping or somewhere with a friend, like the mall, it can be nice and make you feel better about yourself if you dress up.



> They arent all that great, but honestly its the same things all nthe guys around here wear.



NO! *whap* BAD GRASSHOPPER! NO! *whap*

YOU ARE NOT THEM!

Get what looks good on YOU!


> The only thing I have different is my bright red converse all stars, but i kinda like them, and i get compliments on them.



Keep them. Buy a speedwalking outfit. Sweats and a T-shirt work.



> i use old spice aftershave.



NO! *whap* BAD GRASSHOPPER! NO! *whap*

Old spice is worn by old guys, married goons like me, or bought for dad's by kids.

I've used the same aftershave for 20 years, but that's me. But Old Spice? YUCK! The girls I know call it "Eude de Loser"



> I got some body spray recently, a generic kind because its all i could find at the time, but I use it.  If you have any advice on aftershave or similiar things Ill definately follow it immediately.




OK. Here's some advice.

Wear one of your old T-shirts. Go jogging. Do NOT wash it. Change, shower, use soap. (Dial is always a good beginners choice. not perfumey or fancy, but straight forward clean. Women love a man who smells clean) Get dressed decent. Put sweaty smelling shirt in ziplock bag so as not to offend others. Go to a department store.

On your hunt for new clothing, ask the sales girl to follow you to the aftershave/deoderant section. Explain that you are making sure that your body chemistry reacts correctly with the deodorant/body spray/after shave.

Spritz some on a sweaty spot on the shirt. Count to 10. Sniff. Watch the girl's face for those 10 seconds. If she wrinkles her nose, it's not the right one.

Try several different. Despite the commercials, Axe is pretty good. I sweat like a horse and smell like a Puma after I excersize or on a hot day, and Axe keeps me from smelling like I just got back from lion taming.

Choose one that smells OK. If you can ramp up the courage, ask her how things smell.

Now, for the biggest advice...

Aftershave is one thing, but cologne/body spray is another...

The commercials for the body spray show people just slathering it on like an exterminator trying to get rid of an ant infestation. That's incorrect.

Spray above the head and in front of you one spritz. Step through the cloud.

There, that's enough cologne.

Body spray: Quick hits to each armpit, bottom of the feet. Quick spray across the butt cheeks. Maybe a hit across the back if your back gets sweaty. If you can count out loud to two, you've sprayed too long.

NEVER use it to cover up body odor. Always apply after a shower, before putting on CLEAN clothing.

Make sure that the shower soap/gel, shampoo, laundry soap you use, dryer sheets you use, aftershave, cologne, body spray you use COMPLIMENT ONE ANOTHER! 

I know some things make sets, check into those.


> I also know I need a haircut desperately, my hair is thick mass of ungainlyness.  I just dont have a clue as to what to do with the mess.



Flat top. Go to the barber, tell them you want a flat top. It's easy to maintain, and looks right.

Other than that, I have no clue. My hair has been short all my life.



> My grooming could probably use some improving.  I mean my hair and clothes, I shower and shave regularly, and I definately dont stink (at least I hope not!)
> 
> 
> and skanks and such are NOT words I normally use, I was just in a foul mood at the time, and honestly the women I had seen that night definately fit the general description.  Dont worry that Im one to refer to women as "bitches."   At the worst Ill end up saying girls, but then Ill probably be saying guys instead of men, too.



Good, you're already ahead of many, many socially defunct people.



> And thanks for teh list hehe



No trouble, I'm waiting for the mailman and for my TV show to come on.


-------------EDIT-----------

Funny as this may sounds, you aren't the first person I've helped. You should see some of the social misfits I ended up as room mates with, or I got handed in my squad. There was plenty of guys I took the PX and gave basic guidelines on hygiene and dressing right too.

Nothing worse than a 19 year old man who doesn't even know how to dress himself.


----------



## nerfherder (Nov 17, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> Dude, you don't have to know what to do with it:  that's what barbers/hair stylists are for!  What I recommend is going to get a haircut and asking the person who cuts your hair what to do with it, and then say, "OK, that sounds great.  Do it."



Yup, that's what I do.  After going there for a while, she now suggests different styles I might want to try.  Keeps my look modern.


> Same thing with clothes.



Asking the sales people is good advice.  Also, why not ring up your female friend and say that you'd like to ask her a favour - to come shopping with you and help you pick out a new wardrobe.  Women *love* to help men shop for clothes, plus they will spot things that men generally don't (like accessories that would go with what you just bought).  Make sure you buy her lunch while you're out.  This way you get to kill 2 birds with 1 stone - you spend time with your friend, and you get new clothes.  I always take a female friend shopping with me - in fact, I have to keep it quiet because if one friend finds out I took another friend, they can get quite possessive ("so, you trust Cindy's taste over mine now?")...

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 17, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Have you considered this?




Please make the bad things stop.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 17, 2005)

And they call _me_ a bad man.

Edit:  1)  You _are_ a bad man.  

2)  I deleted the picture in the original post, so I deleted the quote here.  --Dinkeldog


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> Yup, that's what I do.  After going there for a while, she now suggests different styles I might want to try.  Keeps my look modern.
> 
> Asking the sales people is good advice.  Also, why not ring up your female friend and say that you'd like to ask her a favour - to come shopping with you and help you pick out a new wardrobe.  Women *love* to help men shop for clothes, plus they will spot things that men generally don't (like accessories that would go with what you just bought).  Make sure you buy her lunch while you're out.  This way you get to kill 2 birds with 1 stone - you spend time with your friend, and you get new clothes.  I always take a female friend shopping with me - in fact, I have to keep it quiet because if one friend finds out I took another friend, they can get quite possessive ("so, you trust Cindy's taste over mine now?")...
> 
> ...



FOR GOD'S SAKE! DO NOT TAKE YOUR MOTHER!

To her, you will always be her little boy. My mother STILL wants to dress me in 1970's kid's fashions based on the shirts she sent me after my house burned down. My GAWD! Doens't that just make you shudder?

Ahem, anyway, the above is good advice.

TAG or Axe full packs, comes with soap, louffa, shower gel, body spray, shampoo, after shave, cologne. They'll compliment each other, and each brand has like 10 different scents.

Oh, and if the sales lady or a lady friend says something doesn't look good that you like, or thinks that something you like doesn't look good, LISTEN TO THEM!

Sneak back and buy the other one later to wear around the house.

Seperate your "around the house" stuff from your "going out" stuff.

if something gets a hole in it, either toss it, give it to a homeless guy, or put it in the "Clean the garage" stack.

Oh, and clean your damn room. If, on the off chance a woman agrees to come home to your mom's house with you, don't make her walk into a unmade mess that smells like cheetoes and desperation. Air it out too, and light some candles. NO INCENSE! She'll think you're a pot-head. Go with some scented candles, a Glad reusable in a power socket.

Now, for the second part:

Posters and pictures on the wall. What are they?
Music you listen too. What is it?
Books on the shelf, that you read all the time. What are they?
Knickknacks on your shelves. What are they?

(You want help from the ground up, I'll give it. Don't feel bad, you think THIS is bad, wait until a woman moves in with you. Say goodbye to Mr. Comfortable Chair, he's going to live at the dump.)


----------



## Andok (Nov 17, 2005)

I gave up my lurker status to post some suggestions for you on page 1.  Now that I know a little more about you, I have a couple more suggestions.

1.  Get a job!  Even with your bad back, there are lots of jobs you can do.  You are almost 30, and women your age are looking for different things in men than they did when they were 20.  At 20, a hot guy without a job was fun to be around, but at 30 a woman is far more practical so a guy without a job is far less attractive than someone with a facial tick.  Also, having a job will do wonders for your self-esteem!

2.  It sounds like you live with your mom.  If so, move out!  Do whatever it takes – find a cheap place, get a roommate, live off of bread and water.  To a woman your age, a guy that is still living with his mom is a huge turnoff.  Again, living on your own will do wonders for your self-esteem.

3.  Fix that attitude!  Dude, I understand how frustrating and depressing your situation may feel, but you will never get anywhere unless you stop the negative, defeatist attitude you have shown here.  Quit dwelling on what’s negative!  You say that you’re a subservient pushover?  Well, then I ORDER YOU to follow some of the self-help suggestions posted here.  Don’t complain.  Don’t make excuses.  Don’t procrastinate.  JUST DO IT!  …and if you don’t follow my orders, then you’re not the subservient pushover you claim to be!  Congratulations on your first step in self-improvement! =)


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 17, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> FOR GOD'S SAKE! DO NOT TAKE YOUR MOTHER!



Truth.



			
				Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> snip



This is turning into the best show on the internet!


----------



## nerfherder (Nov 17, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> FOR GOD'S SAKE! DO NOT TAKE YOUR MOTHER!



That thought was so far from my mind that it hadn't even occurred to me!

OK, revised plan:
0. DO NOT TAKE YOUR MOTHER (yes, it is important enough to be Rule Zero)
1. Ring your female friend.
2. Ask if she could help you buy some clothes.
3. Go shopping with friend.
4. Take the advice of your friend and shop assistants.
5. Buy friend lunch or dinner.

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Belen (Nov 17, 2005)

ROFL!!!  Must...suck....oxygen....now....

Edit:  Picture deleted --Dinkeldog


----------



## Belen (Nov 17, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> FOR GOD'S SAKE! DO NOT TAKE YOUR MOTHER!




Sick s.o.b.


----------



## Belen (Nov 17, 2005)

You may want to consider moving to a city that has lots of eligible young women such as a major college town or DC.  

Next, stand near a fire hydrant, wag your tongue, and hump it.

Once you have gotten out of jail, you will realize how good you have it.

Or, you get lucky and they put you on a permanent happy juice tap.


----------



## Belen (Nov 17, 2005)

Seriously, you should considering moving.


----------



## FickleGM (Nov 17, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> This is turning into the best show on the internet!




Yes it is...

Extreme Makeover - EN World (starring Rel, Teflon Billy, Warlord Ralts and Xath)

Seriously, I am confident that there is more than one man reading this who is wondering where this advice was when we (err...I mean "they") were on the dating scene (and by scene, I mean camio).


Don't worry, it gets better, I heard that at GenCon Indy next year we are going to get:

Girls Gone Wild - EN World (starring...)


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Girls Gone Wild - EN World (starring...)



I'm not a girl, but I'll go wild if you want, and flash my manboobs.  They're not much to see, though, but you're welcome to, if you really want to.

And I'm sure that you do...


----------



## WizarDru (Nov 17, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> And they call _me_ a bad man.




Well, like Red Dwarf says...."Everbody loves _a bastard_."


My eyes hurt.  Those two pictures in close proximity equals pain.


----------



## FickleGM (Nov 17, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I'm not a girl, but I'll go wild if you want, and flash by manboobs.  They're not much to see, though, but you're welcome to, if you really want to.
> 
> And I'm sure that you do...




Thanks to Panexa, I do...


----------



## Droid102 (Nov 17, 2005)

This thread is making me want to clean up my life; and I don't even have a problem with mine!!


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Droid102 said:
			
		

> This thread is making me want to clean up my life; and I don't even have a problem with mine!!



Are you the upgrade to Droid101?


----------



## Droid102 (Nov 17, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Are you the upgrade to Droid101?



Let's just say 101 is having some technical difficulties, I'm here to replace him for a while.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Nov 17, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> And they call _me_ a bad man.




I don't get it...what's so funny about this pic?


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> I don't get it...what's so funny about this pic?



Just trust us and laugh.  It's really funny, I promise.


----------



## Cabled (Nov 17, 2005)

*oof*



			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Have you considered this?




This was a good thread full of useful advice, and then you went and did that.


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Cabled said:
			
		

> This was a good thread full of useful advice, and then youwent and did that.



Hey, the key to confidence is playing to your strengths.  Figuratively pissing in the pool is mine.  I have a huge bladder.


----------



## The Shaman (Nov 17, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> You can do this, Aaron.  We're all pulling for you.



Seriously.

Remember, when a gamer gets a little action, an angel earns its wings.

Don't let down the angels, Aaron.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Nov 17, 2005)

I deleted a picture of an ENWorld poster that was obviously meant to be mocking.  Then I had to delete the same picture as it was quoted over and over.

That is not acceptable behavior here.  Any further personal attacks in this thread will result in harsh penalties.


----------



## Spell (Nov 17, 2005)

Honestly, Aaron, you can do something.
i am also having problems finding girls, and i'm also VERY picky on top. but that is not the end of the world.
the end of the world is your attitude. you fail not because you're bad, but because you think you're not.
have a look around. how many a**holes can you see? i see many, every day. i'm sure every single one of us does. and still they seem to succeed.
why? because they don't think they lack something.

you lack this or that? of course you do. you know what? we all miss something to really like ourselves. we can always be smarter, cooler, and what not. you think you are a freak? good! freaks are more interesting. you are a nerd or a geek? great! show'em this link: http://sfbayarea.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/66795671.html
it's not what you are, but your attitude. sitting in a bar drinking won't help any problem you have. and, from what i can see, it doesn't make you feel better, too. and i think it has been instrumental in losing friends and respect of yourself.

my advice is:
1. forget about doctors. i don't trust them. some of them might be good, but you said you have seen them all your life with no help resulting. well, don't invest money in that. forget about syndromes, depression, diseases, and all that junk. i can't say i have ever talked with a person that i can define as completely normal. what exactly is the definition of normality, anyway?
if you are actually having difficulty finding a job and living out of the money the social security is giving you, move to a cheaper area.
but don't let physical problems bring you down. there are plenty of successful people ut there with one impairment or another. realise that it could always be worse.
2. DO stop drinking. it will be difficult, but it's well worth it.
3. DO get a proper healthy diet. i have seen on myself that eating junk food or non homemade food for as little as two months made me fat, paranoid, aggressive, negative and so on. i had to, at the time, as there was no other solution and i knew it was going to end soon. if you can't chage your diet for any reason, well, do the impossible. having a healthy diet will help you in a way you can't imagine. and it's also usually way cheaper than buying food outside.
4. the important thing is not trying, but trying in the right way. everybody makes effort. those that are most successful at whatever are not trying harder, are just trying better, 99% of the time. check this book out: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...2?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance
it's really worth its money.
5. put that "my personality is repulsive"  out of my face. i have seen the sleaziest persons getting the best girls. i have seen people with the iq and the personality of a broken lightbulb getting laid. your personality is just like anyone else's. it has good points and bad points. if you don't learn to accept yourself, nobody will. honest.
6. people are surprised when i tell them i'm shy. but i am. the key point is, as someone already has said, if you have nothing to lose, you can't hurt yourself. if you are asking a girl out, even if you are the most lurid and repulsive weirdo, you are paying her a compliment. would you feel guilty or uneasy to make a random compliment to a girl? i don't think so. (if that's the case, work on that, too).
if she acts like you have outraged her or something, well, it's the wrong type of woman. it's not a defeat, it's actually a victory: imagine what catastrophe would it be, going out with such a stupid woman! imagine how much time have you saved! rejoyce!
7. realise that you ARE looking for advice. else, why posting in teh first place? i don't believe that drunk people do things that are alien to themselves. even if you are not looking for advice, i think you have enough sensible stuff in these pages to collect in a book. you have found something valuable without looking. how about taking this unwanted gift and making something out of it?


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Spell said:
			
		

> i am also having problems finding girls, and i'm also VERY picky on top. but that is not the end of the world.



Of course not!  I like positions where my wife's on top, actually. It's a perfectly acceptible substitute if you have problems of any kind on top.


----------



## Cabled (Nov 17, 2005)

*Yep, you have a chance *

Ok Aaron, time for some seriousness.  Lots of good advice here, your "toolbox" is probably fuller now than most of the people here before this thread started up.  Think on that one for a minute...because You asked the question, a lot of people here have seen different ideas, strategies, and approaches.  Your life stands to be better if you follow some or all of them, but so do some other people's here too, I guarantee it, whether anyone ever says so or not.  Simply by asking, you've inadverdently enriched some other folks' lives...purty cool huh?

A little anecdote, you you have to read it     When I was in high school a good time ago, I was in the same boat you're in...not the same place on the boat, but in the boat.  I'd get so nervous some days just walking into class that I'd skip classes...just couldn't walk into a room full of people, some of whom were even friends.  I hated it, I knew it was silly...still couldn't do it.  My senior year, I signed up for drama...I was going to make myself get on stage or die one or the other.  I will forever remember the first night I went on stage...I'll sum it up in three words for you...

...Scary As Hell

But I lived of course, and that's my point here for you.  Learn to separate the Scary things from the Dangerous things.  EVERY time you go to take a step and something's scary (substitute "uncomfortable", "unknown", or "unpredictable"...you know what I'm getting at) ask yourself that question.. "Is this dangerous, or just scary?"  If it's just scary, take the step...scary things make you tough.  If it's IS dangerous, then don't and rightly so, and that says nothing about your confidence, masculinity, or anything else.

Something else too, that Warlord made me think of, with his pirate comment.  If you've never seen it, watch "Pirates of the Caribbean"  If you have seen it, watch it again.  A couple times.  And for two hours, watch Johnny Depp stagger around the screen as Jack Sparrow.  You're not looking at pickup lines, or hygiene, or anything you can SEE on the screen...you're watching a man who for two hours doesn't have the first clue what's going on or where he'll be in thirty seconds...but he's the only one that ever knows that.  It was mentioned a few times early in the thread, and I'll say it again.  Learn to fake it!  Learn to adlib!  Not permanently, just in between the spots where you know what you're doing.  You'll find as time goes by, the spots where you know what you're doing get longer, and the spots in between get shorter.  Trust me.


----------



## Warrior Poet (Nov 17, 2005)

Spell said:
			
		

> my advice is:
> 1. forget about doctors. i don't trust them.



I think this is bad advice.  I'm not a medical professional, and I don't even play one on TV, but this rings false.  It's true not everything can be fixed medically, fine.  But there are some really good physicians out there who can help people with all sorts of things, from corrective spinal surgery to counter scoliosis to chemical therapy that adjusts brain chemistry and endocrine system levels to battle certain kinds of depression.

Sorry you don't trust doctors, but I think telling him to forget doctors is a bad move.

Warrior Poet


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

Aww, drinking wont be hard to stop. I've had about as much beer as I can stomach for at least a month.  I really dont drink very much usually, honest.  And I dont think there is a cheaper place to live than wear I am now 

and dont worry about me not trustin doctors.  I'd be in a wheelchair with paralyzed legs right now if it werent for doctors, so I tend to trust them usually.  Plus they give me pills to let me pee.  



Peeing is a good thing Ive learned.  Not being able to pee is not so good.


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 17, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> I think this is bad advice.  I'm not a medical professional, and I don't even play one on TV, but this rings false.  It's true not everything can be fixed medically, fine.  But there are some really good physicians out there who can help people with all sorts of things, from corrective spinal surgery to counter scoliosis to chemical therapy that adjusts brain chemistry and endocrine system levels to battle certain kinds of depression.
> 
> Sorry you don't trust doctors, but I think telling him to forget doctors is a bad move.



<Insert totally hilarious Tom Cruise joke here>

Yeah, we're really lucky to live in an area and time where the medical profession is downright scary in the things it can do for us.  Take advantage of that, dude!


----------



## Spell (Nov 17, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Aaron, himself, states that he knows that his lack of self-confidence is his single biggest problem in dealing with women; he wants to gain it.




well, then i second the motion of finding a voluntary/ charity job. working close to other people, helping them, works wonder on morale. you actualy stop feeling alone. that is the beginning of the end of the depression.


----------



## Spell (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> A car full of girls drive past me, yell "get a life" and throw a condom out the window at me.



before saying anything, let me clarify that i am reasonably confident in myself.
i had something similar happening to me, the other day, as i was walking to a concert.
guess what? just as there are male idiots, so there are girls. why giving them the chance of raining on your parade?
if this happens another time, i urge you to pick up the condom (assuming it's not used! yuck!)... they cost a fortune!



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> someone threw a full plasic cup of soda pop at me from moving van.  i got soaked, and it was pretty cold out



are you sure they did that maliciously? could it just happened?



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> id move away like my brother did (he moved to pittsburgh, dont hear from him much anymore.




as much as i don't believe in in-born strong family ties, he is still your brother. call him. have a chat. do ask for his opinion. does he know that you are feeling that bad?



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> but i quite frankly couldnt survive without my mother.  i cant remember doctors appointments, when to take my medicine, and i certainly cant make my own appointments.



you surely can't if somebody else does that for you. a friend of mine couldn't cook ANYTHING until he was forced to move out. he ate horrible home made food for a month or so, and then he started to get better. now he is acceptable.
same with appointments, medicines, and stuff. if you keep a diary for the appointments (not sure it's called a diary in english... sorry!) and have alarms for your medicine, you are well capable to do it. i can't believe you learned something as complex as a role playing game system and can't find your way to remembering these things.


----------



## Ralts Bloodthorne (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Aww, drinking wont be hard to stop. I've had about as much beer as I can stomach for at least a month.  I really dont drink very much usually, honest.  And I dont think there is a cheaper place to live than wear I am now
> 
> and dont worry about me not trustin doctors.  I'd be in a wheelchair with paralyzed legs right now if it werent for doctors, so I tend to trust them usually.  Plus they give me pills to let me pee.
> 
> ...



YO!

AARON!

Gonna answer my questions, or what?


----------



## Aaron L (Nov 17, 2005)

Youd be suprised at what you can forget.  It took me forever to remember to take my bethanecol for my bladder, and when I dont I have a hard time peeing.  I still forget sometimes!  

Actually making phone calls for appointmenst is the hard thing.  I have a bad time speaking to people on the phone.  I have a worse time speaking to them in person, but in cases like that Im usually just thrust into the situation and dont have a choice.


----------



## nerfherder (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Actually making phone calls for appointmenst is the hard thing.  I have a bad time speaking to people on the phone.  I have a worse time speaking to them in person, but in cases like that Im usually just thrust into the situation and dont have a choice.



For some reason, I occasionally find phoning some people difficult, and end up getting tongue-tied and embarrased - and I'm normally a fairly confident guy.  What I do is jot down a few bullet points about what I want to talk about, so that I can see them in front of me as I talk, and I can tick each point off to make sure everything's covered.

e.g. when I arrange to get my car serviced, I'll jot down these things on a post-it note and stick it on the desk by the phone.  The numbers and registration are there because I tend to forget things like that if I get flustered:
*) Garage phone number
*) My mobile number as a contact
*) My car's registration
*) My car's mileage
*) Ask how much
*) Ask for courtesy car

I also have a bad memory, so I had to develop a coping mechanism for that.  First, I bought a PDA.  Then I put all my address and diary entries into Outlook on my work PC.  I setup the docking station on my PC and synchronised the two.  Every work day, I put the PDA into its docking station and I record *all* appointments on my PC.  My PDA comes home with me every night.

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Spell (Nov 17, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> Sorry you don't trust doctors, but I think telling him to forget doctors is a bad move.




he said he has been seeing doctors forever. i t doesn't look like any of them managed to change the situation. now, if we all agree the problem is the lack of confidence, then no doctor in the world can do much for him. he has to get involved into something, find a way to realise that he is a valuable member of the society, too.
with all the advices that are in this tread alone, he could manage to find his way.

i honestly don't see how seeing a specialist would help him further. advice given by a person paid to do that job might be much better than those given on a web forum, or by friend(s)... but the latters are much more valuable for him. for the simple reason, i believe, that the sheer volume of the post in this tread could make him understand that his personality is not bad, after all, nor repulsive. that people is willing to give help, when he asks. and for free, most of the time.


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## Spell (Nov 17, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Of course not!  I like positions where my wife's on top, actually. It's a perfectly acceptible substitute if you have problems of any kind on top.





funnily enough, i might be "back on saddle" soon... hopefully the new year will bring many nice things to papa...


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## Spell (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> and dont worry about me not trustin doctors.  I'd be in a wheelchair with paralyzed legs right now if it werent for doctors, so I tend to trust them usually.  Plus they give me pills to let me pee.




i can honestly say: good for you.
i had the opposite experience. i had a little problem with one of my knee, when to a very expensive and (supposedly) good specialist, and he nearly killed my knee for good, while "checking it out". i couldn't walk without limping for a week. for *months* i couldn't walk without feeling the pain.
now, hopefully, the tendon is almost healed, and, while sometimes it does hurt, it is happening less and less and less. i am confident it will go away, eventually.

according to the suggestion of the "genius" who visited me, my knee was already damaged that severely, and there was no way to ease the pain without having a surgery. (my stubborness to say "no" despite what my parents and some of my friends said, i believe, saved me a lot of money, and the use of the leg...)

and this is the last episode of a long serie...
i generally resort to doctors only in very very very serious cases.
call it bad luck if you wish, but i've learnt to trust my guts feelings more than any laureate doctor... 

as you can see, different people have different problems.


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## Spell (Nov 17, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> For some reason, I occasionally find phoning some people difficult, and end up getting tongue-tied and embarrased - and I'm normally a fairly confident guy.  What I do is jot down a few bullet points about what I want to talk about, so that I can see them in front of me as I talk, and I can tick each point off to make sure everything's covered.




this technique rules. i hate phones as well, and i always do that. it saves time, you come across as efficient and professional, and the bad feelings are gone (at least for that phone call... )


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## cattoy (Nov 17, 2005)

This thread reminds me of Densha Otoko.


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## Spell (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> And I dont think there is a cheaper place to live than wear I am now




yeah, i realise that now, after reading more topics. i also have a hunch that your mum's food is not exactly the junk food i was referring to! 

anyway, you can certainly contact your borther. or trying and moving out by yourself. or trying any other of the advices in this tread. hell, i think i will be following some myself to become more efficient and get more out of my time! 

plus, i understand that there's probably no library in town and it could be expensive to actually buy books... but going to university is not the only way to get a better culture. if you could get access to a library nearby, you could just read books. you'd be surprised by the number of students that never actually read a full book about the topics they are studying and are spoonfed by their lecturers.
if you find a library, you could be one of the selected few that actually know things, instead of thinking of knowing them!


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## ssampier (Nov 17, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Youd be suprised at what you can forget.  It took me forever to remember to take my bethanecol for my bladder, and when I dont I have a hard time peeing.  I still forget sometimes!
> 
> Actually making phone calls for appointmenst is the hard thing.  I have a bad time speaking to people on the phone.  I have a worse time speaking to them in person, but in cases like that Im usually just thrust into the situation and dont have a choice.




I'm not an "advice-giver", but I can understand this. I had trouble talking on the phone, too. I worked on it and now I use the phone _professionally_ (I'm an Internet Tech Support agent). I'm not perfect, but I've earned two raises this last year.

You can, too!

Write what you're going to say beforehand; this helps me sometimes (I use a checkmarked list). It doesn't need to be anything sophisticated. The person's job on the other end is to make appointments. You could say something simple as, "Hi, this is Aaron L, I'd like to make to make an appointment."


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2005)

hey Aaron, here is step #1 in becoming more masculine.

get your Thanos avatar back.  no one is intimidated by a baby.


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## reveal (Nov 18, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> no one is intimidated by a baby.




No one except for young, single males.


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2005)

zing!  of course, cute babies can get you female attention, so maybe keeping it couldn't hurt.


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## Desdichado (Nov 18, 2005)

cattoy said:
			
		

> This thread reminds me of Densha Otoko.



I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.


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## nerfherder (Nov 18, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.



Google is your friend.

Cheers,
Liam


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## DungeonmasterCal (Nov 18, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Just trust us and laugh.  It's really funny, I promise.




I dunno about the pic...but that was funny!


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## Desdichado (Nov 18, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> Google is your friend.



Curse you, nerf!  Suggesting I work!

Cal--send me an email.  joshuadyal at gmail.

EDIT: dot com, just in case that wasn't obvious.


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## nerfherder (Nov 18, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Curse you, nerf!  Suggesting I work!



In the spirit of this thread, it's better to show someone how to help themselves, than do the work for them   

Cheers,
Liam


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## Xath (Nov 18, 2005)

I have your solution!!! You need to get this kitten:

http://yorkmopscat.net.ua/data/upimages/silvestrik.jpg

If I were single, I'd totally go for anyone with this kitten.  It's the most fricken adorable thing in the world.


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## ssampier (Nov 18, 2005)

Of course, there's always this guy.


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## Belen (Nov 18, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I have your solution!!! You need to get this kitten:
> 
> http://yorkmopscat.net.ua/data/upimages/silvestrik.jpg
> 
> If I were single, I'd totally go for anyone with this kitten.  It's the most fricken adorable thing in the world.




The Alfred Hitchcock of kittens?  That cat is odd looking.


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## Viking Bastard (Nov 18, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I have your solution!!! You need to get this kitten:
> 
> http://yorkmopscat.net.ua/data/upimages/silvestrik.jpg



OMG!

Marlon Brandon has been reincarnated as a kitten!


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## Rel (Nov 18, 2005)

cattoy said:
			
		

> This thread reminds me of Densha Otoko.




I've hated that bitch ever since she broke up the Beatles.


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## reveal (Nov 18, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I've hated that bitch ever since she broke up the Beatles.




You're so funny, Rel.


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## Angel Tarragon (Nov 18, 2005)

Hehe.


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## The Shaman (Nov 19, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> If I were single, I'd totally go for anyone with this kitten.  It's the most fricken adorable thing in the world.



And then there's this thing:


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## crybaby (Nov 19, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> And then there's this thing:





That's so awesome!  But, just what is that "thing"?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 19, 2005)

Its a flower.


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## megamania (Nov 20, 2005)

Seeing at how I am on the verge of a divorce I have nothing nice to say about women and love.

Hang in there.   Things happen when they are meant to-   and not a moment sooner.


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## genshou (Dec 3, 2005)

wolf70 said:
			
		

> It sounds like you are trying SO hard to get somebody, anybody, to love you, that your efforts may actually be driving those who may do so away.  Sometimes we try so hard to find a certain kind of relationship that we focus on it too intensely and it causes people to distance themselves, as they can read from us that we are way too single-minded and purposeful about it.  I relationship like that is not something you can force to happen.  It is not something you can focus on as hard aas it sounds like you are.  I know that is hard to accept, but you have to let go of it a little (or a let) in order for it to happen.  Find some other things to strive for in life (not just things to hide behind, as you are still going to give off that "I'm looking for love as hard as I can" vibe).  As hard as it is, put it out of mind.  That is the only way it is going to happen.  I am not saying to socially isolate yourself.  Just have fun with people and be a friend, even if there is no hope of a relationship.  Try to relax and not think about it.



Very well said on *wolf70*'s part.  I'm like you, except I'm not meek or good-looking.  I'm not nearly as far along in life as you are (I still have 9 years before I hit 30), but I've loved and lost once already.  That single-minded determination can blind you the nature of your actions, sometimes.  I met my girlfriend a couple years back when I was still love-depressed and not interested in girls in the slightest.  But over time I recovered (a lot of that thanks to her just being a friend) and now we have a relationship neither of us was counting on for the longest time.

People older than you get married all the time.  Just keep yourself ready when the right woman arrives, but don't try too hard to seek her out.  You'll find her eventually.  Sometimes it just takes longer, but then the reward is that much sweeter.  My parents married in their (very) early 20's, but all my aunts and uncles were in their late 20' or early 30's.  And they all have wonderfully strong relationships.


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## Captain Howdy (Dec 3, 2005)

Hey Aaron, I just saw this thread now, and I didn't want to read all 9 pages, or whatever it's up to. I read your original post, and I really just gotta say a few things. After 9 pages, other people might have said all this already. 

First off, you need to get professional help. I know other people said this, but it bears repeating. Don't be ashamed to go to a therapist, I talk to one every now and then, especially about relationships. Sometimes you will feel a million times better by talking to a complete stranger about problems. And no, internet strangers don't count. This is the first and most important step. 

Second, I read enought of the thread to see that you still live with your mom. You need to move out. Honestly, the latest a person should be with their parents is the end of college. You really just need to set out on your own. If you can't afford a place of your own, try to find a roomate.

Third, you need more self confidence. I know it's really easy to say that, but really hard to actually do it. Shy, meek guys have pretty much no chance with girls, romantically at least. I'm not saying you have to be a jerk to women, or a big rough guy on a motercycle, but very few females are going to be attracted to someone who is really meek. The easier middle ground is to just develope more of a personality. That way, you don't have to be a big tough guy, and girls will still like you. This is probably the last thing that will happen, though; after you talk to a therapist and move out. Once you really, truely, are happy with yourself, other people will take notice and it will be way easier for you to be Mr. Cool. 
Think of Benny Hill. Stop laughing! He goes to show you what a personality can do for someone who is lacking in other areas. I mean, just look at him: Here ... he is no looker, but everyone loved him!

One last thing: Don't expect all this to turn around for you very soon. You should be fine if you do what I suggested, but it's gonna take a while. If I were you, I would make it my goal to be moved out, seeing a therapist, and enjoying my new lady-friend within one year. Too much sooner and it probably won't work out, too much later and you won't have any motivation to see it through. 

P.S. I see that someone recommended going to a strip club. Heh, I don't know if they were joking or not, but it seems that you are looking for love, not boobies. Strip clubs are fun if you got extra money on a saturday night, but for god's sake, don't think that girls who are getting payed to rub their asses on your jeans are gonna have any respect or love for you.


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## fusangite (Dec 3, 2005)

Captain Howdy said:
			
		

> Hey Aaron, I just saw this thread now, and I didn't want to read all 9 pages, or whatever it's up to.



I guess your post can serve as yet another cautionary tale for why people should bother to read the whole thread. 

In it, Aaron gave us a bunch more details that, had you been in possession of them, would, I hope, have changed your responses significantly. 







> P.S. I see that someone recommended going to a strip club. Heh, I don't know if they were joking or not, but it seems that you are looking for love, not boobies. Strip clubs are fun if you got extra money on a saturday night, but for god's sake, don't think that girls who are getting payed to rub their asses on your jeans are gonna have any respect or love for you.



I guess your post isn't just a cautionary tale against skipping follow-up posts but also against skimming posts without comprehending them.







			
				genshou said:
			
		

> Just keep yourself ready when the right woman arrives, but don't try too hard to seek her out. You'll find her eventually. Sometimes it just takes longer, but then the reward is that much sweeter.



I think you can see from the way the thread went, it's not so much about staying read as getting ready.

So, Aaron, any progress on any of the fronts we discussed?


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## Captain Howdy (Dec 3, 2005)

Any other excuses or cries for sympathy that were posted wouldn't have changed my advice that much, if at all.


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