# Mystic soulknife questions



## ShogunAssassin (Apr 21, 2017)

I am playing a level 5 Mystic Soulknife, Dwarf (trained through elves which the DM allowed +2dex +1int)
I rolled stats and with the race bumbs they are:

14 str
18 dex
16 con
18 int
14 wis
6 cha

at the moment I am feeling the class is really overpowered, for example I took:

Psionic Weapon
Giant Growth
Nomadic Chameleon

I recently crit an enemy and was concentrating on Augmented Weapon and hit them with Lethal Strike (5 psy points) 2d8+10d10+7 which I ended up getting 72 points of damage, is this attack overpowered for level 5 if not why?

Do I have to announce Lethal Strike before the hit? 

RAW does Augmented Weapon stack (+3 hit & damage for 5 psy points) with Hone the Blade (+2 hit & damage for 5 psy points) and if so why?

Does Giant growth focus 5' reach stack with Orge form 5' reach = 10' reach?

As for my two blades: a soul	knife	is	a	martial	melee	weapon so that means attack one adds my dex to damage? 

Does Psionic	Weapon focus do nothing for me other then adding "magical to the damage type" until level 6 where I focus on my off hand weapon and it then adds my dex or str?

If theres any other tips or advice for playing this character please let me know


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## zaratan (Apr 21, 2017)

Reasons why you think is overpowered:
- you rolled stats and have great ones. Point buy would be different
- your DM don't make the standart 6 to 8 encounters day with 2 short rests. So you can burn all your resources in one encounter and them long rest. You probably would think they are underpowered if your dm did 6-8 encounter before long rest.
-A fighter with great weapon master can do more damage than you, with less resources, but is harder to hit.

Yes, you need to announce lethal strike before hit. Brutal force you could announce after hit, but is a d6 instead of d10.
Argumented weapon and hone the blade stack.

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## tglassy (Apr 22, 2017)

I recently crit an enemy and was concentrating on Augmented Weapon and hit them with Lethal Strike (5 psy points) 2d8+10d10+7 which I ended up getting 72 points of damage, is this attack overpowered for level 5 if not why?

You critted.  Which means the normal damage would have been 36.  I don't see that as overpowered.  

Do I have to announce Lethal Strike before the hit? 

You embue it, and it takes effect the next time you hit, so yes, it has to be announced first.

RAW does Augmented Weapon stack (+3 hit & damage for 5 psy points) with Hone the Blade (+2 hit & damage for 5 psy points) and if so why?


Yes, because Hone the Blade lasts 10 minutes without concentration, and Augmented weapon is concentration, so there's no reason why they wouldn't stack.

Does Giant growth focus 5' reach stack with Orge form 5' reach = 10' reach?


Yes, because it says your reach increases for each one.  no reason why it wouldn't stack.

As for my two blades: a soul knife is a martial melee weapon so that means attack one adds my dex to damage? 


Martail weapon just means they're martial weapons, so you have proficiency.  But they also have the Finesse property, and that means you can use dex instead of str.  

Does Psionic Weapon focus do nothing for me other then adding "magical to the damage type" until level 6 where I focus on my off hand weapon and it then adds my dex or str?

It makes the damage psychic instead of physical.  Helpful when fighting something with immunity to physical damage.  Add modifiers after level 6, though I suppose that means it would work on your off hand weapon.  

If theres any other tips or advice for playing this character please let me know



Personally, I like Nomadic Step more than Chameleon.  Being able to teleport around is great.  Also, Adaptive Body, or Beast Form, are great utility as well.  Just a thought.


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## zaratan (Apr 22, 2017)

About focus of psionic weapon in off hand, nothing say you add mod to damage after lvl 6, it say you can't add before it. So you'll not add mod in your off hand if you don't have it yet. 

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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 22, 2017)

This thread reminds me that I want to build a Nomad, teleporting Archer. Or teleporting swordfighter...hrm...

Do Nomad and Soul Knife mix well? 

Dangit, more reading I don't have time for today...


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## ShogunAssassin (Apr 22, 2017)

Great thanks for answering those questions, so to get my dex to add to my off hand soul knife damage I still have to pick up dual weapon which is fine as it also gives me the +1 AC, I really liked the look of Nomadic Step so I might swap that out instead of Chameleon (which i would pick up at later levels) Psionic Restoration is also next on the list as we have a cleric in our party who doesnt heal


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## neogod22 (Apr 22, 2017)

So a few things, 1. You have a cheater character.  You can't get high elf racial stats by training with an elf.  That's like trying to say your dwarf if 10' tall because he hung out with giants, but if your DM allowed you to take those stats, that's on him.  2. I'm guessing you  "rolled" your stats instead of using the point buy system, which will explain them.  

OK now with your questions about the powers.

Does hone the blade and augment weapon stack?  
   No.  The reason why is, the are the same damage type (none) and according to the rules in the PHB, you go with the higher of the 2.  

Does ogre form and giant growth focus stack on the reach?
   DM'S call on that one.  Because of the no stacking rule, probably a no.

Psionic Weapon focus will cause you not to be able to use your STR or DEX modifier on damage for either weapon until level 6.  At level 6, you can still only use your STR or DEX modifier for damage ON YOUR MAIN ATTACK ONLY.  Your off hand doesn't get a damage modifier, unless you multi-class into fighter and take the 2 weapon fighter fighting style.  So since your soul knives already do psychic damage, there is no reason to use that focus, or probably to even take that discipline.   

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## zaratan (Apr 22, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> So a few things, 1. You have a cheater character.  You can't get high elf racial stats by training with an elf.  That's like trying to say your dwarf if 10' tall because he hung out with giants, but if your DM allowed you to take those stats, that's on him.  2. I'm guessing you  "rolled" your stats instead of using the point buy system, which will explain them.
> 
> OK now with your questions about the powers.
> 
> ...




Where this come from? They aren't the same effect, both are bonus. I really don't remember that rule in PHB. 

OP: Dual wielder don't give you mod in damage for off hand, only fighting style does.


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## neogod22 (Apr 22, 2017)

zaratan said:


> Where this come from? They aren't the same effect, both are bonus. I really don't remember that rule in PHB.
> 
> OP: Dual wielder don't give you mod in damage for off hand, only fighting style does.



On page 205. Combining magical effects. 

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## neogod22 (Apr 22, 2017)

The only way they stack is if they are different damage types, for example, fire damage, cold damage and necrotic damage will stack because they are different types, but if it's fire (+3) and fire (+5), then the higher one wins, it's been like that in multiple editions. 

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## ShogunAssassin (Apr 22, 2017)

Neo You dont have to guess that I rolled stats as I stated that earlier. I think a "cheater character" is going a little far, I was going to play a Eladrin (nice stat bumbs and misty step) but for story he said he would like me to play a Dwarf but I was allowed to keep the stat bumbs. correct about the dual wielder


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## neogod22 (Apr 22, 2017)

ShogunAssassin said:


> Neo You dont have to guess that I rolled stats as I stated that earlier. I think a "cheater character" is going a little far, I was going to play a Eladrin (nice stat bumbs and misty step) but for story he said he would like me to play a Dwarf but I was allowed to keep the stat bumbs. What page # on the PHB would I find out the rules for stacking? correct about the dual wielder



Yeah maybe I went a little far. Like I stated, pg 205, combining magical effects.  It falls in line with advantage/disadvantage rules as well as resistance/vulnerability. But they seem to always use the worst examples in this edition. I was looking good for a clearer explanation but I think that was in a 4th edition book.  

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## ShogunAssassin (Apr 22, 2017)

what discipline would you recommend? Hone ur blade is very similar to augmented weapon (a little cheaper but concentrate) I picked this up because of lethal weapon is brute force a better discipline to combo with soul knife?


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## neogod22 (Apr 22, 2017)

Really anything else. Remember the soul knives do psychic damage, you might want to have another damage type so you don't be useless if fighting creature that are immune to psychic damage, like constructs and some undead. 

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## neogod22 (Apr 22, 2017)

Corrosive Metabolism might be a good one for your play style.

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## zaratan (Apr 22, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> Yeah maybe I went a little far. Like I stated, pg 205, combining magical effects.  It falls in line with advantage/disadvantage rules as well as resistance/vulnerability. But they seem to always use the worst examples in this edition. I was looking good for a clearer explanation but I think that was in a 4th edition book.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk




"The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the sam spell cast multi pie times don't combine, however. lnstead, the most potent effect-such as the highest bonus-from those castings applies while their durations overlap."

In mystic:
"Theeffectsofdifferentpsionicdisciplinesadd
togetherwhilethedurationsofthe disciplines
overlap.Likewise,differentoptionsfroma
psionicdisciplinecombineiftheyareactiveat
thesametime.However,aspecificoptionfroma psionicdisciplinedoesn’tcombinewithitselfif
theoptionisusedmultipletimes.Instead,the
mostpotenteffect—usuallydependentonhow
manypsipointswereusedtocreatetheeffect—
applieswhilethedurationsoftheeffects
overlap.
Psionicsandspells areseparateeffects,and
thereforetheirbenefitsanddrawbacksoverlap.
Apsioniceffectthatreproducesaspellisan
exceptiontothisrule."



There is nothing about same damage type don't stack, reach atrack so. The rule is only about the exactly same spell. 

So, yes, they stack. And if an ally cast elemental weapon lvl 7th in your soul knife, this will stack to, to +10 to hit and +3d4+7 to damage. 
First look you may think is OP, but mystic obly get one attack and need to burn a lvl 3 and 5 spells to get that. I think the RAI idea is to be like rogue, one almost guaranteed hard hit (lower damage than rogue, unless they burn too much resources).


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## neogod22 (Apr 22, 2017)

I see where you got that from, so I stand corrected.  

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## neogod22 (Apr 22, 2017)

It is a lot of resources for only +5 extra damage, it kind of forces you to use your bonus action for a second attack every turn just to make it worth while. 

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## zaratan (Apr 22, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> It is a lot of resources for only +5 extra damage, it kind of forces you to use your bonus action for a second attack every turn just to make it worth while.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk



Exactly. Unless DM only do 1-3 encounters day, soul knige is in fact underpowered.


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## neogod22 (Apr 23, 2017)

They aren't underpowered, just singularity focused. 

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## tglassy (Apr 23, 2017)

They aren't underpowered.  They don't use Disciplines to do damage.  They use their blades.  Their disciplines are for utility. The other types use them during combat, and need lots of utility.  Soul Knifes are going to just be hitting things with their blades during combat.


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## zaratan (Apr 23, 2017)

tglassy said:


> They aren't underpowered.  They don't use Disciplines to do damage.  They use their blades.  Their disciplines are for utility. The other types use them during combat, and need lots of utility.  Soul Knifes are going to just be hitting things with their blades during combat.




The damage is really small unless they use discipline to bump it. They have so many uses for bonus action that in the end they can't combine their strenght. 
At lvl 5 any mystic can do 2d10 (11) with talent, soul knife will do 2d8+4(13), but need to burn his bonus action every turn.  At lvl 8 talent will do 2d10+5(16), soul knife 3d8+5(18.5). Lvl 11 talent do 3d10+5 (20.5)

Soul knife lost 2 disciplines for this too.
Consumptive knife looks nice, but with so many uses for bonus action, soul knife is the one that do less use of mystical recovery, with lower the use of consumptive power. Soul knife will probably bump dex before Int, worse for any save effect they need. How I see, soul knife is the one (except immortal) that can do less utility stuffs with disciplines.

Both damage are lower than most classes can archieve, they need to burn lot of resources to get at standard damage. I think this is ok, since they have so much versatility.


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## neogod22 (Apr 24, 2017)

What's wrong with your math? They would get 4d8+5 at level 8.  The extra 1d8 applies to all attacks.  Not only that, but they can still use talents just like every other Mystic and is not barred from any discipline.  Your only valid argument is that they trade 2 extra disciplines for the knives. Actually, the knives work better, because that is the only order that allows you to recover psi points, so using your points to boost damage isn't very bad. They actually have one of the most useful level 6 abilities. 

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## neogod22 (Apr 24, 2017)

Not only will the extra  d8s apply to both knives, so would the +(×) from hone the blade, and the +3 from lethal strike if they are used. 

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## neogod22 (Apr 24, 2017)

So if he had a 20 DEX at level 8, his attacks on the second round should be +10 to hit, 2d8+10 psychic  damage, and +10 to hit, 2d8+5 psychic damage.   That's more damage than the talents.  

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## neogod22 (Apr 24, 2017)

Wait, it does say once per turn, but still still 1d8+5 damage.  

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## zaratan (Apr 24, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> So if he had a 20 DEX at level 8, his attacks on the second round should be +10 to hit, 2d8+10 psychic  damage, and +10 to hit, 2d8+5 psychic damage.   That's more damage than the talents.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk




In fact is +13 at 8 with proficiency. "Once on each of your turn". Don't apply even in AoO. 3d8+15 at third round (first bonus action to get soul knife, second for augmented weapon, you only start to use the off hand at third), half of encounter was gone, for 10 pp, you can do this 4 times day, for the cost of all your resources. Your bonus action is stuck with an attack every turn to get that damage, or you can burn even more pp for your nova, but forget the off hand attack in that turn. You didn't recover one single hp with mystical recovery, good luck trying to burn some hp for pp at lvl 10 with comsuptive power. In fact, good luck keeping alive being a frontliner with ac 17, and d8 of hp. You'll need to pick disciplines to bump your defense, harder for you who has 2 less. Your int is 16 instead of 20, easier to save than other mystics. 

For 10 pp in a round I probably would prefer to use psychic crush for 7, or psychic grip for 6, or mind storm for 5, conjure two shadows for 3, or overwhelming attack for 7 (ready it to an ally turn, so he can get extra attack) or maybe with victory before combat to drop down half of the encounter before they can act. 

Mystic have great versatility, but not good at will damage. Soul knife looks like he is trying to swim against the tide, burning all they versatility to get an "ok" damage compared with standard martial classes. The idea of make him a dual weapon fighter with 63739282764 another uses for bonus action is really bad idea.


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## zaratan (Apr 24, 2017)

This post bring some light to me, to soul knife work well, vetter be a hogh elf or get magic initiate to booming blade and/or green flame blade. Dump this stupid bonus action attack and free ypur bonus action to parry, recover hp, use lethal strike or any other discipline. They still lack 2 lass disciplines, but really can work that way, at least better than immortal, another bad concept. 

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## neogod22 (Apr 25, 2017)

zaratan said:


> In fact is +13 at 8 with proficiency. "Once on each of your turn". Don't apply even in AoO. 3d8+15 at third round (first bonus action to get soul knife, second for augmented weapon, you only start to use the off hand at third), half of encounter was gone, for 10 pp, you can do this 4 times day, for the cost of all your resources. Your bonus action is stuck with an attack every turn to get that damage, or you can burn even more pp for your nova, but forget the off hand attack in that turn. You didn't recover one single hp with mystical recovery, good luck trying to burn some hp for pp at lvl 10 with comsuptive power. In fact, good luck keeping alive being a frontliner with ac 17, and d8 of hp. You'll need to pick disciplines to bump your defense, harder for you who has 2 less. Your int is 16 instead of 20, easier to save than other mystics.
> 
> For 10 pp in a round I probably would prefer to use psychic crush for 7, or psychic grip for 6, or mind storm for 5, conjure two shadows for 3, or overwhelming attack for 7 (ready it to an ally turn, so he can get extra attack) or maybe with victory before combat to drop down half of the encounter before they can act.
> 
> Mystic have great versatility, but not good at will damage. Soul knife looks like he is trying to swim against the tide, burning all they versatility to get an "ok" damage compared with standard martial classes. The idea of make him a dual weapon fighter with 63739282764 another uses for bonus action is really bad idea.



Why would you be a frontliner?  This is clearly not a class to be taking hits, and this is clearly not intended to be a healer either, you don't need to use your bonus action to heal, a healer in the group can do that job, or you can still use your short rest to spend hit dice.  At this point in the game, the soul knife is on part to do more damage than the rogue, and if you spend your time mopping up trash mobs instead of trying to be a "frontliner," you can recover the psi points you spent.  The soul knife is actually built to not have to use a lot of psi points, and the ability to recover them gives them sustainably.  

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## neogod22 (Apr 25, 2017)

The 2 extra disciplines don't mean much at this level, because you can only use one power at a time anyway for the most part.  Sure some disciplines allow you to do more damage on a 1 time attack, but unless you're gonna keep spending psi points every round, there is no sustainability, not only that, but as I said before, the soul knife isn't barred from any discipline,  so whatever strategy you have for your mystic can apply to the soul knife. 

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## zaratan (Apr 25, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> Why would you be a frontliner?  This is clearly not a class to be taking hits, and this is clearly not intended to be a healer either, you don't need to use your bonus action to heal, a healer in the group can do that job, or you can still use your short rest to spend hit dice.  At this point in the game, the soul knife is on part to do more damage than the rogue, and if you spend your time mopping up trash mobs instead of trying to be a "frontliner," you can recover the psi points you spent.  The soul knife is actually built to not have to use a lot of psi points, and the ability to recover them gives them sustainably.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk




If you use melee attacks, you will stay in melee, want it or not, will be a frontline. Mystic doesn't have cunning action or ki,  or monk speed, to hit and run, you will need to burn a lot of pp (and your bonus action), or get at least mobile. You know what is better if you don't want to stay in melee as mystic? Don't be a soul knife. 
Comsulptive power let you trade hp for pp, this means that more hp=more pp. A lvl 10 mystic have 64 pp, when you use your discipline you can recover hp, if you recover half of the time, this means 32hp, that you can convert to 32pp... try to kill 16 enemies in a day to compensate that. You can't depend of others members to get full healed, your party have 3-6 guys, you're not the only one to be healed and any other class need to burn expensive resources to heal. Mystic can do it for just one bonus action when spend pp. But not soul knife, because they nees to use a bonus action to do a mediocre damage... better do what I say, dump this off hand attack and use booming blade. 

Your last phrase make no sence. To have a decent damage they need to burn 10 pp in one encounter, how the hell they are "actually built to not have to use a lot of psi points"? They need to burn all they resource to do 3d8+15 at lvl 8, only in second or third round? A rogue can do more damage in an encounter, at least a rogue that I make, all day, no resources spend, and with better survivability. And guess what, rogue damage isn't great too, is just an average damage class. 

And if you think 2 less disciplines doesn't matter, you didn't even tried to do one mystic.


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## neogod22 (Apr 26, 2017)

zaratan said:


> If you use melee attacks, you will stay in melee, want it or not, will be a frontline. Mystic doesn't have cunning action or ki,  or monk speed, to hit and run, you will need to burn a lot of pp (and your bonus action), or get at least mobile. You know what is better if you don't want to stay in melee as mystic? Don't be a soul knife.
> Comsulptive power let you trade hp for pp, this means that more hp=more pp. A lvl 10 mystic have 64 pp, when you use your discipline you can recover hp, if you recover half of the time, this means 32hp, that you can convert to 32pp... try to kill 16 enemies in a day to compensate that. You can't depend of others members to get full healed, your party have 3-6 guys, you're not the only one to be healed and any other class need to burn expensive resources to heal. Mystic can do it for just one bonus action when spend pp. But not soul knife, because they nees to use a bonus action to do a mediocre damage... better do what I say, dump this off hand attack and use booming blade.
> 
> Your last phrase make no sence. To have a decent damage they need to burn 10 pp in one encounter, how the hell they are "actually built to not have to use a lot of psi points"? They need to burn all they resource to do 3d8+15 at lvl 8, only in second or third round? A rogue can do more damage in an encounter, at least a rogue that I make, all day, no resources spend, and with better survivability. And guess what, rogue damage isn't great too, is just an average damage class.
> ...



Let me ask you something, how does a rogue heal? How does a monk, bladesinger or warlock heal?  By the party healer right?  Who says I have to spend my bonus actions to heal when I spend my psi points? Your problem is you're an in the box thinker.  All you keep saying is "this class sucks because I don't how to use him."  Let me tell you something, 1. a soul blade does not have to use their bonus action to attack every turn.  2. a soul blade does not have to melee every turn, or at all for that matter.  3. you probably won't get damaged every single round.  4. you most likely won't use psi points every round, and if you do, you probably won't end the day with them.  5. there's a discipline called psionic restoration,  and if I want to heal myself,  nothing stops me from taking that, and hey after I heal myself using it, I could even take a bonus action for more healing, what are the odds of that?   How about thinking outside the box every once in a while and maybe you can figure out how good the classes you might of thought was weak could be. 

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## zaratan (Apr 26, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> Let me ask you something, how does a rogue heal? How does a monk, bladesinger or warlock heal?  By the party healer right?  Who says I have to spend my bonus actions to heal when I spend my psi points? Your problem is you're an in the box thinker.  All you keep saying is "this class sucks because I don't how to use him."  Let me tell you something, 1. a soul blade does not have to use their bonus action to attack every turn.  2. a soul blade does not have to melee every turn, or at all for that matter.  3. you probably won't get damaged every single round.  4. you most likely won't use psi points every round, and if you do, you probably won't end the day with them.  5. there's a discipline called psionic restoration,  and if I want to heal myself,  nothing stops me from taking that, and hey after I heal myself using it, I could even take a bonus action for more healing, what are the odds of that?   How about thinking outside the box every once in a while and maybe you can figure out how good the classes you might of thought was weak could be.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk




1- I didn't said it suck, I said is bad designed to be dual weapon when you have so many options to bonus action. And other mystic look better options.
2- you tried to compare soul knife with rogue, and to do the same, he lost great part of his versatility. 
3- lvl 10 mystic can burn hp for psi point, this means that if he can recover half of psi point in hp, at the end of day, he can ger 50% more psi points. This isn't a small benefit, other classes don't get this for being fully healed, so don't compare.
4- any mystic with melee cantrips can do the same of soul knife in melee, but eith bonus action free, and 2 more disciplines. 
5- great point of mustic is versatility, not damage, like wizard. Soul knife is the less versatile and his damage doesn't get much benefit unless he get even more desadvantage, this is bad design. 
6- any mystic can get psionic restoration, but soul knife have 2 less disciplines to pick
7- they don't need to be in melee all the time, but his great point should be stay in melee. And any other mustic can stay at range better than soul knife.

Did you even tried to make some soul knife characters? Can you make a lvl 5, lvl 8 and lvl 11 build and see if others could be superior? 

He isn't the worst achetype of all time, but the "strong points" of him, aren't that strong for what he abdicate. 
At least immortal is probably even worse with immortal durability and psionic resilience synergic abyss.


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## neogod22 (Apr 26, 2017)

Here's the thing. If you found something that's actually broken with the Archetype great, address it so it could be fixed.  But whining about how it doesn't fit your limited play style, I could care less about what you think, because my experience and your experience will never be the same.  I could care less about losing 2 disciplines, I've played warlocks.  I know a thing or 2 about managing  characters with limited abilities.  Frankly if you're playing a ranged Mystic,  and playing him right, you should almost never have to heal yourself anyway, so why are you so hung up on that 1 ability? 

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## zaratan (May 4, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> Here's the thing. If you found something that's actually broken with the Archetype great, address it so it could be fixed.  But whining about how it doesn't fit your limited play style, I could care less about what you think, because my experience and your experience will never be the same.  I could care less about losing 2 disciplines, I've played warlocks.  I know a thing or 2 about managing  characters with limited abilities.  Frankly if you're playing a ranged Mystic,  and playing him right, you should almost never have to heal yourself anyway, so why are you so hung up on that 1 ability?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk




I think you didn't understand that this thread started with OP thinkg that soul knife is OP, and my point is, if there is some OP archetype in mystic, definitely isn't soul knife. 
Some of your arguments doesn't make any sense, why the hell you would make a ranged soul knife if all they archetype benefits is with a melee weapon that he can't even throw it? If you want to play an optimized ranged mystic, choose any other order. 
Saying that I have "limited playing style" doesn't help you to prove how strong and optimized a soul knife can be or how right it is the dual weapon design for him. This last part I think is impossible to prove.


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## neogod22 (May 4, 2017)

zaratan said:


> I think you didn't understand that this thread started with OP thinkg that soul knife is OP, and my point is, if there is some OP archetype in mystic, definitely isn't soul knife.
> Some of your arguments doesn't make any sense, why the hell you would make a ranged soul knife if all they archetype benefits is with a melee weapon that he can't even throw it? If you want to play an optimized ranged mystic, choose any other order.
> Saying that I have "limited playing style" doesn't help you to prove how strong and optimized a soul knife can be or how right it is the dual weapon design for him. This last part I think is impossible to prove.



No, you're the one who doesn't understand.   Most of the psychic powers are ranged, and melee combat is not optimal for every situation,  so why pigeon hole a character if he has the tools to be both ranged and melee?  What doesn't make sense is you saying they anyone playing a soul knife should ignore the majority of the powers just to make melee attacks and then calling the character weak.  I bet you think the same way about the Bladesinger,  that he should only use melee combat even the the majority of  wizard spells are ranged. 

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## zaratan (May 4, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> No, you're the one who doesn't understand.   Most of the psychic powers are ranged, and melee combat is not optimal for every situation,  so why pigeon hole a character if he has the tools to be both ranged and melee?




Because is obviously that the character can be more optimized in you focus in one of than. Just read any optimization guide in this forum. 



neogod22 said:


> What doesn't make sense is you saying they anyone playing a soul knife should ignore the majority of the powers just to make melee attacks and then calling the character weak.  I bet you think the same way about the Bladesinger,  that he should only use melee combat even the the majority of  wizard spells are ranged.




I never used "ignore power", I said they have less disciplines (flexibility) and all the archetype benefit focus in melee, so they should be good at this. At least good enought to use most of the time while he isn't tossing fireballs or control spells like bladesinger. 
I would never compare bladesinger with soul knife, bladesinger design make sense. Bladesinger can do more at will damage than soul knife, with better AC, save and mobility and get the same amought of spells of the rest of schools, so he really can use all his spells for other things that aren't weapon attacks. Bladesinger doesn't have 18473474 effects compeating for his bonus action. Bladesinger can get and use a magic weapon in his life with his class features. Bladesinger can hold anything in one hand while attack with the other. Please, don't try to compare both. 

Let's make something, you try to make a lvl 5 and lvl 9 soul knife with point buy, I do the same with another order, we compare which one has less flaws and more benefits, ok?


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## neogod22 (May 4, 2017)

zaratan said:


> Because is obviously that the character can be more optimized in you focus in one of than. Just read any optimization guide in this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey guy stay on the point.  Yes a soul knife's level abilities are melee focused, because they need to be. Should be good at it? Dude combining 2 abilites gives them the highest to hit rating in the game at any level, you can almost not miss with them which in most situations is better than big damage.  They can still do big damage, and they have the ability to recover psi points, the only mystics thst can do it.  Every Mystic suffers the "too many abilities to compete for a bonus action," that's just how the class is built, and a smart player will know how to manage their abilities not complain about them. 

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## zaratan (May 4, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> Hey guy stay on the point.  Yes a soul knife's level abilities are melee focused, because they need to be. Should be good at it? Dude combining 2 abilites gives them the highest to hit rating in the game at any level, you can almost not miss with them which in most situations is better than big damage.  They can still do big damage, and they have the ability to recover psi points, the only mystics thst can do it.  Every Mystic suffers the "too many abilities to compete for a bonus action," that's just how the class is built, and a smart player will know how to manage their abilities not complain about them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk




You're theozing concepts, apply them in one build and we'll see if really work that way. Make a real soul knife and we'll compare: 

In which level they get this? How the damage output they can deal agaist a AC 16 and AC 20? At which cost? In the end of the day with 6 combat encounter 4.5 rounds each and 2 short rests how they can sustain it? What he will do with psi point left, if left some? Avg enemies killed with soul knife at the day? Which stats? Defenses, ally buffs, non combat stuff? 

PS: If you would be right about hit is more important than damage, sharpshooter and great weapon master wouldn't be what they are. 

This way help you: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...6gzfZb6N6XRj99CEto2MAXrWEk/edit#gid=309497876 

You're right about high chance to hit being important, but most if you can toss a great damage. Use lethal strike for example is great in that situation (but you can't use it and your off hand attack at same turn). At least at lvl 14 you have a "no miss" option that you can use with lethal strike, but you can't use it with your off hand attack since you didn't use an "attack action". 

Incredible how none of his features synergize with a off hand attack, you're sure this isn't a bad design?


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## neogod22 (May 4, 2017)

zaratan said:


> You're theozing concepts, apply them in one build and we'll see if really work that way. Make a real soul knife and we'll compare:
> 
> In which level they get this? How the damage output they can deal agaist a AC 16 and AC 20? At which cost? In the end of the day with 6 combat encounter 4.5 rounds each and 2 short rests how they can sustain it? What he will do with psi point left, if left some? Avg enemies killed with soul knife at the day? Which stats? Defenses, ally buffs, non combat stuff?
> 
> ...



I'm going to play one Monday in my play test group, which I've been experimenting with all the archtypes.  I can't exactly base my experience off of what you call a combat day since everyone plays at different speeds and we get through what we get through.   Since I mostly play in AL, I can't create a long term character.  But from experience I can tell you that great weapon master is not for low level characters, and the majority of the people who take that feat at low levels are usually more of a liability in combat than an asset.   You do 0 damage when you miss.  At level 9, hitting AC 16 with a +14 to hit, you should be landing your strikes 90-95% of the time. You literally can only miss on a roll of 1.  The reason you can't use lethal strike with your off hand is the same exact reason rogues can only use sneak attack 1 time per round, because it would be OVERPOWERED.   Also it's irrelevant anyway since you can only use a certain number of psi points per round anyway. 

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## zaratan (May 4, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> I'm going to play one Monday in my play test group, which I've been experimenting with all the archtypes.  I can't exactly base my experience off of what you call a combat day since everyone plays at different speeds and we get through what we get through.   Since I mostly play in AL, I can't create a long term character.  But from experience I can tell you that great weapon master is not for low level characters, and the majority of the people who take that feat at low levels are usually more of a liability in combat than an asset.   You do 0 damage when you miss.  At level 9, hitting AC 16 with a +14 to hit, you should be landing your strikes 90-95% of the time. You literally can only miss on a roll of 1.  The reason you can't use lethal strike with your off hand is the same exact reason rogues can only use sneak attack 1 time per round, because it would be OVERPOWERED.   Also it's irrelevant anyway since you can only use a certain number of psi points per round anyway.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk




A fighter lvl 9 will get 20 of str and GWM, which means +4 if he don't have a magic weapon yet. Against AC 16 means avg 22.90 or 35.84 with advantage without any resources. A rage half orc barbarian str 18 GWM would be doing 35.53 against that AC	16 and 
Fighter against AC 20 would do 13.11 or 23.12 with advantage, but he has precision strike to help a lot in that case. A 21.73 barbarian agaisnt AC 20 (24.73 wtihout -5/+10).

A Soul knife that maxed Dex (so with only int 16) for 7 pp (which he can do all day, but will not have much more pp left for the rest) could do against AC 20 would do 19.22 or 25.435 with advantage. But Against AC 16 the avg dmg is 24,525 and  27,55125 respectively. So the high chance to hit is only really usefull against high AC, which isn't the standard for most enemies. After lvl 9, soul knife only get +1d8/round of damage at will, the rest cost pp (which is ok, with that bigger pool). 
Funny is, at lvl 11 (or before if target move), if you make a soul knife with booming blade, he'll do more damage than the off hand one and with his bonus action free for lethal strike or any other thing. 
My problem with lethal strike (or any other mystic weapon damage increase) and mystic off hand attack is that he can't use at same turn, not "together". 
A crossbow expert rogue or dual wielder can attack, bonus action attack and use sneak attack at same turn. 

So, why the hell they planned to make soul knife a dual wielder if this really don't add much? Seriously that you can't agree that there is something wrong with the off hand attack for soul knife?


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## neogod22 (May 4, 2017)

Show me the math for these numbers you're putting out, because I don't understand what you're talking about or what you're taking in account. Also I don't see much of a difference in damage, and by your math, against AC 16,  it looks like the fighter the majority of the time.  So again, how are they underpowered?  

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## neogod22 (May 5, 2017)

The funny thing is, in your attempts to prove me wrong, you keep making my point for me.  The Mystic out damages the fighter in normal circumstances.  You have to add  special conditions to beat it, which shows it's pretty well balanced. 

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## neogod22 (May 5, 2017)

I call  on you math BTW.   Let's do math everyone can follow along with and understand.  At level 9. SK has +14 attack. And 2d8+10, 1d8+5 respectively.   A GWM fighter has +4 attack, 1d12+15, 1d12+15 respectively.   Against AC 16 SK has a 95% chance to hit per attack (2-20 on a d20), GWM has a 45% chance to hit (12-20).  Chance to hit on both attacks is double the chance to miss (90% to hit for the SK,  22.5% for GWM) so, average damage for both attack equals (19+4.5 = 24.5, vs 2(20.5) = 41). Now you add the chance to over 10 attacks and average the damage.  (24.5x9 = 220.5/10 = 22) (41x2 = 82/10 = 8.2).  So the SK will average  22 vs the GWM 8 per round if we are only counting double hits as valid.  Do you want to try for AC 20? 

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## zaratan (May 5, 2017)

The calculator is in a link I putted before.
Soul knife need to burn 80% or his resource, so he don't get much more to do. And I didn't added none of fighter feature (manuevers, one trip attack and the rest is all with advantage, ripose is an extra attack with reaction, action surge and so) or optimized feat (polearm master)
And lvl 9 is the great spot of mystic, I can do the calculation for you at lvl 5 or lvl 11+ 
And again, soul knife can't have magic weapons and keep his features benefits. 

To hit with +14 you burn 12 pp, so you can't do this all day and your first turn don't have off hand attack.


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## neogod22 (May 5, 2017)

zaratan said:


> The calculator is in a link I putted before.
> Soul knife need to burn 80% or his resource, so he don't get much more to do. And I didn't added none of fighter feature (manuevers, one trip attack and the rest is all with advantage, ripose is an extra attack with reaction, action surge and so) or optimized feat (polearm master)
> And lvl 9 is the great spot of mystic, I can do the calculation for you at lvl 5 or lvl 11+
> And again, soul knife can't have magic weapons and keep his features benefits.
> ...



I see you're not good at math. Hone the blade (+2 5pp) augment weapon (+3 5pp).  5+5= 10.  Both have a 10min duration, 10 rounds = 1min.  So duration 100 rounds.  57pp - 10 = 47pp. 47÷57 = 82% of resources remaining.  20 DEX= +5 +4(prof. Mod)= +9.  9+5 = +14 to hit.  

The reason I didn't add all of that stuff you mentioned is because when you do comparisons it has to be apples to apples. You can't use combat menuevers for every attack for 10 rounds, you can't even do it for 3, so no, not being added.  

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## zaratan (May 5, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> I see you're not good at math. Hone the blade (+2 5pp) augment weapon (+3 5pp).  5+5= 10.  Both have a 10min duration, 10 rounds = 1min.  So duration 100 rounds.  57pp - 10 = 47pp. 47÷57 = 82% of resources remaining.  20 DEX= +5 +4(prof. Mod)= +9.  9+5 = +14 to hit.
> 
> The reason I didn't add all of that stuff you mentioned is because when you do comparisons it has to be apples to apples. You can't use combat menuevers for every attack for 10 rounds, you can't even do it for 3, so no, not being added.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk




None encounter last 10 rounds, the avg ia about 4, max 5. The standart encounter day is 6-8 encounters wirh 2 short rest. Using manuever for ripose means 5 extra attacks for short rest with +1d10 damage each.polearm master is bonus action attack always + a lot of AoO all day, and fighter can get a magic glaive to decrease to hit difference.
For 10pp, you need to burn all your resoures to last entire day, and don't lose your concentration any time. 
And this damage only really ger on at round 3, since first bonus action you ger soul knife, second bonus action augumented weapon and only at than you will use your off hand. Most combats will end at round 4, nice.
And this is the top level of mystic, since they don't really get much at lvl 11+

But is a waste of pp for mystic just to try to be comparable with fighter, they can get so many good stuffs, spend all with damage?

But why you avoid to comment my bigger critic about mystic, the off hand attack, that doesn't synergize with anything, and use booming blade could be a better choice most of the soul knife career.  Or you can't hold a stupid map while you're with your soul knife. This is not about being underpowered, is bad design. You really don't have nothing to say about that?


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## neogod22 (May 5, 2017)

I did a simple apples to apples comparison, not apples to oranges, not apples to lemons.  We are not playing the what-if game. Face it, you don't know what you're talking about and am starting to be annoying. If you think a fighter is better, then go play a fighter and get off the forum.   

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## zaratan (May 5, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> I did a simple apples to apples comparison, not apples to oranges, not apples to lemons.  We are not playing the what-if game. Face it, you don't know what you're talking about and am starting to be annoying. If you think a fighter is better, then go play a fighter and get off the forum.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk




Apple to apple is compare champion with a battle master. If you'll compare no resource with no resource I would be ok, but you're comparing 10pp spend and damage of third round how if was at first with no resouce? And call this "apple to apple"? Or you're trying to compare a what a nova class can do if it was just one encounter/day, with a short rest class, in a game balanced for 6 to 8 encounters/day?
And why the hell you always change the subject to power level when my problem with soul knife is his dual wielder design? I'll not play a fighter, I would play a avatar, awakened, nomad or wu jen mystic, with his features that make sense and synergize with they other features and disciplines. Compare mystic with mystic wouldn't be more "apples to apples"? Why you don't do your soul knife character to be compare?
 Please, at least tell me that you're using sophistry on purpose.


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## neogod22 (May 5, 2017)

zaratan said:


> Apple to apple is compare champion with a battle master. If you'll compare no resource with no resource I would be ok, but you're comparing 10pp spend and damage of third round how if was at first with no resouce? And call this "apple to apple"? Or you're trying to compare a what a nova class can do if it was just one encounter/day, with a short rest class, in a game balanced for 6 to 8 encounters/day?
> And why the hell you always change the subject to power level when my problem with soul knife is his dual wielder design? I'll not play a fighter, I would play a avatar, awakened, nomad or wu jen mystic, with his features that make sense and synergize with they other features and disciplines. Compare mystic with mystic wouldn't be more "apples to apples"? Why you don't do your soul knife character to be compare?
> Please, at least tell me that you're using sophistry on purpose.



Look dude, you're the that said fighter, then you added stupid numbers, when I showed the math breakdown, now all of a sudden it's you want compare battle masters with polearms in 5 rounds of combat.  Here's a heads up genius, the reason I don't add superiority dice is because you get like 4 of them in a short rest?  That gives you1 per round for 4 rounds or 2 in 2 rounds, that's not sustainable damage.  Not only that, but going off your "6-8 encounters" rule, that means 3-5 encounters you will face will not have the benefit of a short rest, and will not reset your dice.  Also they don't consistently increase your chances to hit, which is what you would need to out DPS the SK, so there was no point in adding them in the equation.  Play whatever you want dude I couldn't care less.  I told you before why the off-hand does not synergies with powers, because it will be OP, but it seems to me, that's what you're after.  To try and be the most OP power gamer.  It really doesn't matter which Mystic you play, because the differences for the most part are minor unless you're gonna play heavy your your Order's powers.  

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## zaratan (May 6, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> Look dude, you're the that said fighter, then you added stupid numbers, when I showed the math breakdown, now all of a sudden it's you want compare battle masters with polearms in 5 rounds of combat.  Here's a heads up genius, the reason I don't add superiority dice is because you get like 4 of them in a short rest?  That gives you1 per round for 4 rounds or 2 in 2 rounds, that's not sustainable damage.  Not only that, but going off your "6-8 encounters" rule, that means 3-5 encounters you will face will not have the benefit of a short rest, and will not reset your dice.  Also they don't consistently increase your chances to hit, which is what you would need to out DPS the SK, so there was no point in adding them in the equation.  Play whatever you want dude I couldn't care less.  I told you before why the off-hand does not synergies with powers, because it will be OP, but it seems to me, that's what you're after.  To try and be the most OP power gamer.  It really doesn't matter which Mystic you play, because the differences for the most part are minor unless you're gonna play heavy your your Order's powers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk



Hauauhauhau you're crazy, man. Read the topic again, you started to compare mystic with other classes, until then I was just saying that mystic are lackluster compared with other mystics (argument that you even tried to prove wrong). 

If you want to compare at will fighter, compare with at will soul knife. But you compared an at will fighter with full pp burnned soul knife with his damage only at third round. Don't even try to justify yourself.
2 short rest/day means lvl 9 battlemaster get more 6 attacks with action surge,  15 attacks with +15d10 with ripose and you think this is ignorable? You didn't ignored 57 pp, but ignored the lower damage at roubd one and two for mystic. Lol

Yeah, I like to make builds, power play, math about that and check the management resources for entire day is the only way of do it right. 
If not, you can fall in the falacy of 'mystic is so OP", he can burn 21 psi points in one turn for 100dmg!"... but this is completly wrong. 

If you really want to compare, don't be lazy and check the entire day, or don't lose your time. 

About off hand, the bad design isn't abput don't stack with other resources, os that he can't use it at same turn, so would be way better to give him something like booming blade than a feature that he only will use 10% of time, and that don't let he even hold a map or a torch with a weapon in other hand! Isn't about make him more powerful, is about he get a feature that don't create conflit with any other thing that he has. 

I know you will not read what I writting, how you did every time.


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## neogod22 (May 7, 2017)

zaratan said:


> Hauauhauhau you're crazy, man. Read the topic again, you started to compare mystic with other classes, until then I was just saying that mystic are lackluster compared with other mystics (argument that you even tried to prove wrong).
> 
> If you want to compare at will fighter, compare with at will soul knife. But you compared an at will fighter with full pp burnned soul knife with his damage only at third round. Don't even try to justify yourself.
> 2 short rest/day means lvl 9 battlemaster get more 6 attacks with action surge,  15 attacks with +15d10 with ripose and you think this is ignorable? You didn't ignored 57 pp, but ignored the lower damage at roubd one and two for mystic. Lol
> ...




You understand my point, which is the soul knife is not underpowered, yet you continually argued against it.  BTW riposte does not give you an extra attack, it allows you to use your reaction on the specific purpose of countering a miss, which is akin to taking an opportunity attack, the problem with that strategy is, you are banking on a missed attack every round to use it, and as a fighter, using that maneuver means you're not worried about holding creatures in place, since you can't stop them from moving away from you.  

Paired weapon fighting is not a bad design, I don't know why you keep going on about it.  Booming blade would be a good alternative to a normal attack, but I like many other people play in Adventures League, and when this class officially comes out, AL rules say you're allowed to use the PHB and 1 other player resource, so booming blade will not be an option.  Also, you can still make an attack with your off hand if you did use booming blade since it is a bonus action.  


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## zaratan (May 7, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> You understand my point, which is the soul knife is not underpowered, yet you continually argued against it.  BTW riposte does not give you an extra attack, it allows you to use your reaction on the specific purpose of countering a miss, which is akin to taking an opportunity attack, the problem with that strategy is, you are banking on a missed attack every round to use it, and as a fighter, using that maneuver means you're not worried about holding creatures in place, since you can't stop them from moving away from you.
> 
> Paired weapon fighting is not a bad design, I don't know why you keep going on about it.  Booming blade would be a good alternative to a normal attack, but I like many other people play in Adventures League, and when this class officially comes out, AL rules say you're allowed to use the PHB and 1 other player resource, so booming blade will not be an option.  Also, you can still make an attack with your off hand if you did use booming blade since it is a bonus action.
> 
> ...




When I said I think soul knife is underpowered, is compared to other orders, not other classes. And yes, to me, they are lackluster since mystic great point is versatility and soul knife is the less versatile. Still, they are better than immortal. 
Ripose can give exactly an extra attack with extra damage dice, something that you wouldn't use thay round. With polearm master and sentinel you can trigger a AoO 80% or rounds. 
You can't use off hand attack with BB, you need to use a attack action, so you can't use with melee canteips, soul knife lvl 14 feature, any increase weapon damage discipline (even with mastery of wood that is an action), parry, mystic recovery, nothing. And can't get a magic weapon or even hold anything in your hand, sorry, but I can't see this a real benefit that worth two less disciplines. And how mystic isn't AL legal, bokming blade is 100% valid choice. 

I said this before, I can see a fully functional soul knife with booming blade and/or green flame blade. Use your bonus action to parry or any other good effect. 
His off hand attack look like immortals features, they don't really add much. You don't need to agree, but to me, is a completly bad design and I doubt if soul knife be published, he'll stay how it is.


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## neogod22 (May 7, 2017)

zaratan said:


> When I said I think soul knife is underpowered, is compared to other orders, not other classes.
> Ripose can give exactly an extra attack with extra damage dice, something that you wouldn't use thay round. With polearm master and sentinel you can trigger a AoO 80% or rounds.
> You can't use off hand attack with BB, you need to use a attack action, so you can't use with melee canteips, soul knife lvl 14 feature, any increase weapon damage discipline (even with mastery of wood that is an action), parry, mystic recovery, nothing. And can't get a magic weapon or even hold anything in your hand, sorry, but I can't see this a real benefit that worth two less disciplines. And how mystic isn't AL legal, bokming blade is 100% valid choice.
> 
> ...





So you play in AL, because the only things that are legal are what's in the actual published books, and as new player books come out, they update the rules to allow for those books, but as I said, they limit players to the PHB and 1 player supplement only. So if you want to play a race that's in Volo's Guide for example, you can't use anything out of Sword Coast.  They may add an ammendment to allow all the races when this class does come out in a book, but I doubt they will allow for anything else to be used.  

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## zaratan (May 7, 2017)

neogod22 said:


> So you play in AL, because the only things that are legal are what's in the actual published books, and as new player books come out, they update the rules to allow for those books, but as I said, they limit players to the PHB and 1 player supplement only. So if you want to play a race that's in Volo's Guide for example, you can't use anything out of Sword Coast.  They may add an ammendment to allow all the races when this class does come out in a book, but I doubt they will allow for anything else to be used.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk



Yeah, I now how AL work, but my critic is about actual soul knife design. Something that probably will change if he'll be published one day


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