# Which CRPG has the best STORY? (Forked from: Do you not play WoW?)



## CleverNickName (Dec 26, 2008)

Forked from:  Do you not play WOW? Forked Thread: Wil Wheaton plays and reviews 4th. 



			
				resistor said:
			
		

> I am an *extremely* story-motivated gamer.  I play single player games on the easiest difficulty (or with cheats turned on) because I'm not interested in the challenge.  I play because I want to find out what happens next.



I thought this was an interesting point of view, and I'd like to continue its discussion.

In your opinion...game mechanics and graphics aside...which CRPG has the best _story_?  For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that "C" stands for either Console or Computer.


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## Mallus (Dec 26, 2008)

There can be only one... Planescape:Torment.

(though I'm also terribly fond of the 1st console RPG I played, which would be Skies of Arcadia)


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## Askaval30 (Dec 26, 2008)

Planescape Torment hands down, followed by BGII: Shadows of Amn as a close second.


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## CleverNickName (Dec 26, 2008)

IMO, the CRPG with the best story has always been Super Nintendo's _Final Fantasy III_ (or Final Fantasy VI, in Japan.)  It has become the standard by which I compare all others.

[SBLOCK=FF3 Spoilers ahead]I love how magic is presented as a mysterious, dangerous force of nature.  The struggle to control it is presented in a very realistic manner: if such a power existed, I would fully expect the military to attempt to use it as a weapon.  Which is what happens...The Empire begins experimenting with it, creating all sorts of horrible aberrations and enhanced soldiers, eventually opening up a gate to another world to steal more magic.

I love the steampunk/magitech technology level.  I love the villain...his madness is both campy and disturbing, obviously inspired by the Joker.

The storylines are simple enough, but they build upon themselves well enough that you totally get drawn in.  But for all of its simplicity, it presents a lot of issues that were quite mature for the time...things like abortion, suicide, murder, and genocide. 

I could go on.  For days.   [/SBLOCK]

My second favorite would have to be _Wizardry VI: Crusaders of the Dark Savant._  I didn't particularly care for any of the other games in the Wizardry series, though.

[SBLOCK=Wiz7 Spoilers ahead]I think the reason why I like this game so much is because of how HUGE it is...it had more races and classes to choose from than any other game of its time, and it was a lot less linear (less "railroading") too.  And the game setting (an entire planet) was incredibly detailed.  It wasn't just another place to kill stuff; you could interact with it in game-changing ways (even to the point of making the game un-winnable.)

The war of the T'Rang vs. the Umpani...the origins of the universe, and its mysterious creator...the high-tech, futuristic weapons...space travel...if you love Spelljammer, this game was right up your alley.

The story was smart and well-planned, and the NPCs had depth and style.  It was like the writers took the old "save the world" plot, and cranked it up to eleven.  I wish today's CRPGs were half as detailed as this one...if they were, I would probably start buying them again.[/SBLOCK]
I had long hoped to find a D20 setting developed for these two games, but it doesn't look like it will happen.  (Although I've got my eye on Final Fantasy Zero...)  Guess it's up to me, now.  :/


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## avin (Dec 26, 2008)

Planescape Torment. 

Easy.

"What can change the nature of a man?"

_(By Final Fantasy III you meant Final Fantasy VI? Shadow? Terra? Celes? Kefka? Nice game for SNES but far inferior than PS:T... IMO)_


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## CleverNickName (Dec 26, 2008)

avin said:


> _(By Final Fantasy III you meant Final Fantasy VI? Shadow? Terra? Celes? Kefka? Nice game for SNES but far inferior than PS:T... IMO)_



Yeah, that's the one.  When it was released for the SNES, SquareSoft called it "Final Fantasy III."  I think it was originally released as FF6 in Japan, though.

The unanimous response of _Planescape: Torment_ has piqued my curiosity.  Can anyone point me to a handful of reviews that I can read?  I've got a gift card that's burning a hole in my pocket...


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## avin (Dec 26, 2008)

It's an old CRPG from Black Isle, using a modified version of AD&D.

A man with no memory awakes on a mortuary...

Astonishing story, if you got this game spend your points in CHA and WIS, even if you are a fighter all the way, for the best endings.

Planescape got the best story but the BEST CRPG is Fallout 1.


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## oni no won (Dec 26, 2008)

The best CRPG, story-wise, was for me, Final Fantasy VII.  The story as well as the action sequences were amazing for its time.


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## avin (Dec 26, 2008)

oni no won said:


> The best CRPG, story-wise, was for me, Final Fantasy VII.  The story as well as the action sequences were amazing for its time.




Have you played FFVI or PS:T?



Explaining: FFVII use to be "the best" for most people who started at 7 and never played VI. I would vote FFVI before playing PS:T. It's another level of gaming.


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## Deuce Traveler (Dec 26, 2008)

I loved Fallout 1 and 2, as well as the PC Baldur's Gate series.  But the best is Planescape:Torment.


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## timbannock (Dec 26, 2008)

PS:T is amazing.  Buy it now.

That is the only review you need.

I also enjoyed Shadow of the Colossus (PS2), but that's almost me saying I enjoyed it for its LACK of definitive story, and more its ability to create a history/mood/story very subtly.

I also liked Septerra Core A LOT.  Slightly more than the Fallout Series in terms of story.


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## Merlin's Shadow (Dec 26, 2008)

My vote would also go for Planescape: Torment. FFVI would be a close second.


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## MatthewJHanson (Dec 26, 2008)

Just incase you don't believe your fellow EN Worlders, here's what Gamespot has to say about Planescape Torment.

The easiest way to play it at this point is probably through Gametap if you can beat it in a month it's only 10 dollars.


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## Jack99 (Dec 26, 2008)

Mallus said:


> There can be only one... Planescape:Torment.




Mallus and everyone else is right! It's really not even a contest.


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## resistor (Dec 26, 2008)

Woah!  Someone quoted me!

I don't know that I could pick just one.  I like a lot of the ones that other people have already mentioned (Fallout 1&2, Planescape: Torment).  To name a few I liked that others haven't:

Some Favorites:
Chrono Trigger (Best console RPG EVER.  Not nearly enough people have played this one.)
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (the first one, the second wasn't as good)

I recently played Mass Effect (good, but not great), Fallout 3 (not bad, but ultimately limited and disappointing compared to the originals), and I'm working on The Witcher (GOOD!).


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## CleverNickName (Dec 26, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Mallus and everyone else is right! It's really not even a contest.



Wow.  In my head, I thought this was a great idea for a discussion thread...but it seems like Planescape: Torment is a rock star in this department.  I've just placed an order for it (thank you Amazon), and it will be here in a few days.  I'm looking forward to giving it a whirl.

In the "best story ever" department, though, I remain skeptical.  FF6 is going to be hard to beat.  Not to mention all of the others on my List of Awesome.

And I know it's an unfair bias, but I have been burned before by the D&D-brand CRPGs.  Remember Ravenloft: Stone Prophet?  Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager?  Freakin' _Menzoberranzan?_  After that last one, I swore never to buy another D&D computer game.



resistor said:


> Chrono Trigger (Best console RPG EVER.  Not nearly enough people have played this one.)



I love this game!  It barely left my SNES deck back when I was at Oklahoma State.


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## Darkwolf71 (Dec 26, 2008)

avin said:


> Explaining: FFVII use to be "the best" for most people who started at 7 and never played VI. I would vote FFVI before playing PS:T. It's another level of gaming.




I have a working theory that everyone's favorite FF game coincides with their first FF game. For me, there is no question that FFVI is the best. I still play through it once evry 18 months or so.

Best story (C)omputerRPG because they really are different up to recent years. It's been so long since I played PS:T that I can't really say it's 'the best' but I remember enjoying it. I think the Fallout series as a whole is really up there, even if the newest is kinda lacking. (Not that it's bad, I love it.)


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## JRRNeiklot (Dec 26, 2008)

Zork.


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## Jack99 (Dec 26, 2008)

CleverNickName said:


> And I know it's an unfair bias, but I have been burned before by the D&D-brand CRPGs.  Remember Ravenloft: Stone Prophet?  Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager?  Freakin' _Menzoberranzan?_  After that last one, I swore never to buy another D&D computer game.




When I said "no contest" I obviously meant IMO. But PS:T is in a league of it's own when it comes to D&D computer games, that's for sure. Now, if you look at other games, you can of course find others that are really good. I just haven't had the luck of finding anything with as good a story.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 26, 2008)

Damn. I never played Planescape:Torment.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 26, 2008)

Suikoden series, with Suikoden II having the best plot of all the games (and just best in general, IM--and most other fans'--HO).  Political drama and coups, friendships made and broken, tragic sacrifices, cunning strategists tricking others into being their pawns, and a cast of 108 characters -- most of them playable and most having unique personalities -- on top of all the other allies who don't join you and foes, Suikoden has all of that.  If I were to rank them all by plot, I'd say S2>S5>S3>S1>S4.

Final Fantasy 3/6 and 7 had pretty good storyline, too.  FF Tactics had such a complex story going on it's hard to keep track of the first time through.  At least it was difficult for me.

I love Chrono Trigger, but I didn't think plot was a particularly strong aspect of the game.

I'm not sure for what it's worth, but Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean (Gamecube) had one of the greatest plot twists EVER!


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## Derro (Dec 26, 2008)

PS: Torment is very good. I'm really surprised no one has mentioned ES3: Morrowind. The main story was really good, the sub-plots were generally pretty well thought out and involved, and the game world as a whole was incredibly well developed. The 1000+ pages of in-game books alone made for wicked reading. I'd sometimes play just to read the books.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 26, 2008)

I'm obviously partial to the FF games.  I like 4 (the problem of mortals wrestling with the choice between easy Evil and difficult Good), 6 (the massive cast and the epic plot threads), and 10 (the Journey and the Sacrifice!) for some of the best plots around, though 7 is certainly a strong contender (a certain famous death scene...). 

But aside from that, there's still a LOT of good plots out there.

The most impressive ones have actually been some Western RPG's, in my mind. Torment is absolutely amazing. BioShock is fantastic. Fable and KOTOR are wonderful. Fallout is quite good. I'm paying close attention to the Old Republic MMO -- their idea of constant forward thrust and choices that can't be undone and dialogue that doesn't circle back in on itself is deeply interesting to me. 

I like hitting the diversity of non-JRPG's when I can, just because I'm *such* a big FF nerd.  

If Final Fantasy Zero can get close to the narrative thrust of some of the better of these games, I'll be very proud of it. Narrative is what FFZ is all about, after all.


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## Shemeska (Dec 26, 2008)

Torment is a work of art.

While I didn't get to play it till around 2002, I'd read some stuff about it online in 2001, shortly before I started playing D&D. It, and subsequently the mimir were my first exposure to Planescape. But even if I didn't adore the setting itself, the game's plotline is engrossing and amazingly well done. The various patches online that restore some dialogue options that didn't make it to the final release are a good thing to snag as well if you get a copy of the game.

Outside of Torment however, I very much enjoyed BG2: SoA. It's a shame that Black Isle folded.


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## HRG (Dec 26, 2008)

JRRNeiklot said:


> Zork.




It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue!

Best story - I'll agree with Final Fantasy III, followed by Knights of the Old Republic and Final Fantasy 8.


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## Woas (Dec 26, 2008)

Harvest Moon



...Moo...


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 26, 2008)

Yeah Black Isle and Troika were like the RPG-masters. I am just glad Bioware managed to catch a ton of their people.

Say Shemeska do you have NWN 2? Since this may interest you: http://www.planescapetrilogy.com/

Though it has been hard to confirm how alive the project is.


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## Dragonwriter (Dec 27, 2008)

Mustrum, you're not alone...

Off the top of my head, I've got a list of games that are plain great, story-wise. There are other games that are great for other reasons. (I don't have PS3 or Wii, so I can't comment on their games)

Xbox 360 (and Xbox)- Mass Effect, BioShock, Fable II. Fable, KOTOR 1, Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind. (And Armed and Dangerous deserves a mention... Not really for story or gameplay, but for the script and hilarious cutscenes. A game to be in any Monty Python fans collection.)

PS2- Dragon Quest 8, FF X, (and FF VII)

Gamecube- Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess

PC- NWN2 was sweet (never played 1...), Starcraft (if you don't have it),

Frankly, anything by BioWare will have a great story. They are some of the greatest storytellers of our time in the video game world.


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## ProfessorCirno (Dec 27, 2008)

Planescape: Torment.  So what else is good?

Fallout was already mentioned, and there's really not much I can say about it that isn't mindless gushing.  Fallout 1 is what every cRPG should try to be.  Period.  It's the pinnacle.

KotOR 2, sadly, had the greatest potential to be a thousand times better then KotOR 1 - and for a good portion, is.  Unfortunately, Lucas Arts wears it's pants on it's head, and decided to butcher the development time they originally set so they could release the game for Christmas, and much of the brilliance was lost.  I actually suggest you read through the KotoR 2 Let's Play - they touch a lot on how amazing the game is, and what was lost when Lucas Arts decided to kill it.

Why wasn't Mask of the Betrayer mentioned?  Sure, the Neverwinter Nights 2 original campaign was mostly eh (Better then NWN1's OC, mind you), but the expansion, Mask of the Betrayer, is absolutely amazing.  Gann is probably my favorite partner/friend/companion from any non-PS:T game of all time, easily.  The game is non-linear and has, bar *none*, the best "evil" path in any game ever made.  For me, that game set the standard for how to make a non-linear game with evil choices.

Personally, I advise you stay away from Bioware.  They've made an occupation from releasing the _exact same game_ in different settings (Dragon Age is going to be Mass Effect in Middle Earth.  Mass Effect was KotOR with some words changed.  KotOR was Jade Empire in space.  Jade Empire was NWN1 in bamboo covered Europe, not to be confused with Asia), so quite frankly, if you've played one, you very much have played them all.  And god help you if you like _realistic_ partners/friends/companions, because all Bioware seems to be capable of are whiny child-men who see the main character not as a sentient being, but as a walking psychologist.  I'm positive that Bioware has personally set back the women's rights movement hundreds of years with their refusal to portray female PCs as anything but pathetic, mewling spellcasters.  And why?  It allows Bioware to give you the opportunity to discover these "strong women" who studied all their life to master the dark art but after removing a few layers you will discover that under this strong facade they are ony little scared girls who need love to survive in this harsh world.  It makes me want to vomit.

Morrowind is a fun hiking simulator.  I mean, don't get me wrong - the aesthetics, showing the in-game setting as somewhere that's wonderfully alien and fantastic, makes it one of the very, *very* few 3-D games that I enjoy since we decided not to go anywhere but medieval Europe, the in game lore regarding just about _everything_ is awesome, and I absolutely adore pre-Oblivion Tamriel, one of the few settings with elves that are absolutely cool in just about every way - and Morrowind helped make the Dunmer one of my favorite races of _anything_ from any setting, period.  It's just...it's just...it's just that the gameplay and storytelling is kinda _eehhhh_.

Something similar goes for Arcanum, really.  The setting is *awesome*.  The in game lore is *awesome*.  The storytelling for the most part is *awesome*.  The gameplay?  Not so awesome.  The NPCs really need some work, too.

_Keep in mind, despite my detractions, I still recommend all of the above games that aren't from Bioware.  Morrowind?  Play it!  Mod it heavily, but play it!  Arcanum?  Grab Drog Black Tooth's mod for it, and through yourself in!  Even KotoR 2 is a fun romp through a game that tries to make Star Wars one thousand times better as a setting._

On the jRPG - and thus, console - side, I agree fully with the nomination of Suikoden.  1 is great, 2 is absolutely fantastic - or *awesome*, if you want - and 3 is good.  Four is...don't play four.  It's not _bad_, it just doesn't match up with the greatness of the other Suikodens.  Five jumps back up to great.

I dislike FF7.  Sorry.  8 is worse.  I did enjoy nine though!  Ten...that's FF8 level.  Sorry again.

_Buuuuuuut_...Final Fantasy Tactics is great stuff.  It's got my recommendation.

I'm not much of a console gamer, so there's not much else I can through out, but I know a lot of people who absolutely adore the Persona series, and they all seem to agree that 4 is fantastic.


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## Wycen (Dec 27, 2008)

Planescape: Torment.  

Now, BiggusGeekus and anyone else who hovered over their every word during development needs to post.


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## Vorput (Dec 27, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Damn. I never played Planescape:Torment.




Me neither- and this thread makes me want to.  Not quite enough to dish out $70 for a 9 year old game though!

Hmm...


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## Pants (Dec 27, 2008)

Derro said:


> PS: Torment is very good. I'm really surprised no one has mentioned ES3: Morrowind. The main story was really good, the sub-plots were generally pretty well thought out and involved, and the game world as a whole was incredibly well developed. The 1000+ pages of in-game books alone made for wicked reading. I'd sometimes play just to read the books.



_Morrowind _put me to sleep. 

The thing with _Morrowind _is... the game world itself is pretty cool, the backstory is interesting, and the setting is inscrutably alien, but the gameplay and the actual story, bore me to tears. 

_Planescape: Torment _has probably the best 'story,' though _Baldur's Gate II _is most likely the better 'game.' 

_Mass Effect _has a great, cinematic story, if only because it's one of the few games where playing an evil douche doesn't (always) translate into being a dick to everyone.

_Chrono Trigger _is a lot of fun. Probably one of the best j-rpgs of all time with a great story to boot.


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## Leatherhead (Dec 27, 2008)

I will toss in my vote for Planescape: torment as well.

I would also like to note however, that Final Fantasy Tactics has a better story than the FF games with numerals on the end of their name.


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## Miyaa (Dec 27, 2008)

_Morrowind_ was alright. Oblivion is a little better. _Mass Effect_ was interesting until you get to the romantic part with the alien, then it's like, well, this.

I had a problem with Neverwinter Night 2 because the game's bugs got into the way, but I generally loved the NWN series more because of all the mods you could do with it instead of the game that was in it, but the storylines in the original were pretty good.

_Dark Messiah: Might and Magic_ was pretty good, but it's not something that you wouldn't see the twists and turns coming.

Finally, no love for _Balder's Gate_?


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## stonegod (Dec 27, 2008)

PS: T gets my vote story wise. Glad to see it isn't just me. 

Arcanum gets my second. I agree w/ the Prof. about its bugs, but even still I play it once a year or so. Drog's patches from terra-arcanum.com fix a lot of them.


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## Desdichado (Dec 27, 2008)

Knights of the Old Republic.


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## Metus (Dec 27, 2008)

Planescape: Torment is coming out on top, like usual.  I love the game and recommend it to all my friends.  That being said, I prefer Baldur's Gate II.



Pants said:


> _Planescape: Torment _has probably the best 'story,' though _Baldur's Gate II _is most likely the better 'game.'




It's a bit of that, but Baldur's Gate II felt more alive to me.  It felt like it had a richer, larger world, more characters and more options.  I remember in P:T making the Nameless One a mage, and it didn't feel like it had any real impact.  In Baldur's Gate II, I had a necromancer who owned his own planar sphere and had apprentices making goodies.

So, Baldur's Gate II for me.

I'm a huge gamer and have played practically every game mentioned in this thread.  I will say that Suikoden II was pretty good as well, and I have fond memories of it.  One thing that really stood out for me was the fact that Suikoden II didn't revolve around saving the world (or the underworld, or a plane, or whatever).  It was just city-states engaging in combative politics.  Very refreshing, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and as an aside, I did like Knights of the Old Republic II more than the first one (although the first one was good too, don't get me wrong) and recommend the sequel.


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## Hussar (Dec 27, 2008)

Y'know, I have PS:T and never could get into it.  I think it's because my instruction manual was in Korean (bought it there, even though the game is in English) and I could never really figure out how to level up.  Just lost interest in it.  Very cool looking though.

For me, the Baldur's Gate series is the best story line.


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## drothgery (Dec 27, 2008)

Miyaa said:


> _Morrowind_ was alright. Oblivion is a little better. _Mass Effect_ was interesting until you get to the romantic part with the alien, then it's like, well, this.




Y'know, you can hook up with Kaiden or Ashley if you don't want to have anything to do with Liara.


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## Mallus (Dec 27, 2008)

drothgery said:


> ...or Ashley



Dude, that would be like hooking up with a chick into White Power. 

(wait, can you de-bigot Ashley? I may need to play through Mass Effect again)


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## jdrakeh (Dec 27, 2008)

Technically, they aren't RPGs, but I think that Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers, Phantasmagoria, and The Dagger of Amon Ra all have good stories that make for engaging play (they're easily my most favorite PCs games _ever_). 

For console RPGS (and, yes, these are RPGs), the Shining Force and Shining Force II are both great fun. Both games have a heavy emphasis on team-building and world exploration, as well as fairly detailed world histories. The stories in each are meaningful and engaging. 

I actually started to write an unofficial SFII world guide for D&D 3x a couple of years back (I nearly finished it, too, but then my HDD went out suddenly and that pretty much killed the project. Nearly 20k words down the drain.)


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## Teemu (Dec 27, 2008)

Yeah, Torment probably has the best story in a CRPG that I've played.

However, the best story and atmosphere and the like in any computer game must've been in Grim Fandango. It's been a decade since its release but thinking about it still sends shivers down my spine.


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 27, 2008)

Anyone got any spoilers for Torment/BG 2?


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## Merlin's Shadow (Dec 27, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> Anyone got any spoilers for Torment/BG 2?




Torment spoilers from the Wikipedia article:
[sblock]Plot

The game begins with the protagonist, known only as The Nameless One, waking up with total amnesia. He soon finds out that he is immortal; if he is killed, he will simply reawaken in the same body. He sets out on a quest to regain his lost memories, and discover why he is immortal. As the game progresses, he slowly remembers events from his many previous lives. He discovers much about the personalities of his previous incarnations, and the great influence they have had in the worlds and people that surround him.
After traveling through many Planescape oddities and wonders, such as a pregnant alleyway, two of the Lady of Pain's Mazes, Avernus (the first layer of Baator), and Carceri (the prison plane of thieves and liars), he finally discovers why he is immortal. His original incarnation had committed a grave evil and believed that more than one lifetime was needed to atone. So, he sought out the powerful night hag, Ravel Puzzlewell, and asked her to make him immortal. Ravel granted him immortality, but made a mistake: his death and resurrection would cause the loss of all his memories. His mortality now exists as a separate entity in the Fortress of Regrets, from where it attempts to prevent The Nameless One's reincarnations to find the truth.

Subplots
Most of the game content resides on text based subplots. They help the player understand the setting and gain insight into the backgrounds of the characters.
The background of "Morte" is a good example of such a subplot. Morte is a floating skull that accompanies The Nameless One from the beginning of the game. Several times in the game, it is hinted that Morte is hiding something about his origins. The protagonist might even find a message of a previous incarnation urging caution against the skull. If the player pays attention to these hints, he might use them to press Morte, and find out that his companion used to be attached to the Pillar of Skulls in Avernus, in punishment for having told a lie that caused someone's death. Telling this to someone seems to be a relief to Morte.
The player can also help quite a few victims of the oddities of the planes. There is, for example, a woman who has been lost since her childhood, because she could not find a portal home. In her search, she has gone through many portals, only to arrive in inhospitable and dangerous locations. She not only lost hope of returning home, but also got so afraid of portals that she decided never to leave a certain square of Sigil, in fear of going through one accidentally. If the player stops to listen to her, he´ll be able help her find her way home.

Themes

The key philosophical theme of the work is presented as a question several times: "what can change the nature of a man?". This question considers the possibility (or impossibility) of changing fate; many characters in Torment are fighting against their natures, or against what seems to be an inevitable fate. One example is Nordom, who, despite being a modron (a hive-minded species) is developing a personality of his own.
Selfishness is also a very present theme. The Nameless One has, in previous incarnations, been so committed to understanding his condition that he has been willing to sacrifice everything and everyone on that quest. Many consequences of this can be discovered through the game.
One idea that presents itself many times during the game is consensus reality—if enough people believe in something, then it is real, and begins to exist. For example, when people ask The Nameless One his name, one of the choices of response is to lie that it is "Adahn". If the player tells enough people that this is his name, a man named Adahn will appear in a certain location, claiming to be an old friend, even though he never existed before. Another example is a recovered memory of a past event in which the Nameless One apparently debates a man out of existence. Also, the Githzerai make their home in Limbo, the plane of chaos, using collective belief to shape their cities.
Torment shares many themes with its setting, Planescape.[/sblock]


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 27, 2008)

Other good plot games:
-Legend of Dragoon: It has a lot of stereotypical characters and common plot twists, but the basic story is still lengthy and rich.  So much happens on the first disc (of 4) that it felt like its own game.  Maybe I was blind or too young when I played it to know my plot twists, but the revelations at the end of disc 3 really surprised me.  Not just the identity of the enemy that had been trumpeted around like a potential final boss, but how the main character transitioned from anger and the seeking of revenge to forgiveness and understanding.
-Super Mario RPG: I just like how they lampooned the plot of all the previous Mario games by "resolving" it in the first several minutes, only to uncover the real plot.  That and how the game managed to be so incredibly funny without taking away from the story or the urgency of stopping the Smithy Gang.  Mallow is one of the most memorable characters from any game I've ever played.



ProfessorCirno said:


> On the jRPG - and thus, console - side, I agree fully with the nomination of Suikoden.  1 is great, 2 is absolutely fantastic - or *awesome*, if you want - and 3 is good.  Four is...don't play four.  It's not _bad_, it just doesn't match up with the greatness of the other Suikodens.  Five jumps back up to great.
> 
> I dislike FF7.  Sorry.  8 is worse.  I did enjoy nine though!  Ten...that's FF8 level.  Sorry again.
> 
> _Buuuuuuut_...Final Fantasy Tactics is great stuff.  It's got my recommendation.




Heh, yeah 4 is pretty bad compared to the other Sukodens.  It's still an ok game, just...play the others first if you can.  And try to find humor in the insanely high random encounter rate, lest you just get angry and quit.  Plot-wise, it was definitely the wak link of the series.

As for FF...I should have mentioned 3/6, 7, and Tactics are the only ones I've fully played through.  I'm sure there are other FF titles with great plots (except 10 and 10-2, never playing those).  As for saying 7 had a good plot, well...it did.  I am captain of the "FF 7 is over rated" team, and didn't even think the Aeris "scene" (for those few who it would be a spoiler for) was staged well/convincingly, nevermind not least bit tragic.  But, it did have an interested, troubled main character, and the backstories for many of the others were pretty deep as well.  There are still dozens of better CRPGs to play than FF7, of course.



Miyaa said:


> Finally, no love for _Balder's Gate_?




I love Baldur's Gate, and it has an amazing cast of characters.  It's definitely my favorite computer RPG, particularly 2.  The main issue I had with it (BG 2) for plot was the main villain.  Yeah, he was a great villain and I wanted to kick his teeth down his throat.  But his motivation for doing everything...just seemed bland to me.


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## dragonlordofpoondari (Dec 27, 2008)

*Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes! Rrrar! *squeek**

Great thread! Here are some of my opinions ...

*****PC GAMES*****

Baldur's Gate wins. Part 2 is a direct continuation of the story in Part 1, btw. It is BG2, though, that has such a mindbending story arc. Oh, and I can't wait for Dragon Age to come out (the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate). My hopes are riding high ...

(THIS IS A SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE: PLAY FALLOUT 3 RIGHT AWAY)

All 3 Fallout games are wonderful all around. I enjoy Fallout 3 the most for the gameplay and the worldbuilding/realism more than the story, which is still engaging.* It has one minor flaw that I can't bring up w/o spoiling anything. I would advise anyone who plays it to keep a lot of save files (that is to say, don't just re-write over the same save file).

Oblivion is great for the same sandboxy reasons, plus it has a great story. I LOVED playing through Oblivion. It is by far my favorite 3D RPG experience ... maybe my favorite computer RPG experience overall. I hear its expansions are even better than the original (similar to NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer outshining NWN2), and I fully intend to play them at some point. I think it was Shivering Isles that got all the attention. One problem: the skill system is a bit silly. Thank goodness Fallout 3 fixed all that nonsense.

Icewind Dale 1 and 2 was not the greatest in terms of story, but it scratched the itch after I finished BG. Good games, but not great.

Planescape scratched a similar itch and is pretty good from what I played of it. Unfortunately I got sidetracked after about 30 hours and forgot to back up my saves when I formatted my drive. I should probably attempt it again based on all these reccomendations.

Arcanum is another game that I lost interest in about half way through. Meh. I'll investigate the fanfixes and give it another shot one day ...

I am another guy fully impressed with the writers at BioWare. I respectfully disagree with ProfessorCirno's criticisms of Bioware. These guys are master storytellers, and they're doing the most intersting work I've seen in the treatment of ethics and how they shape the game. Their characters are memorable and complex; they are a far cry from flat, one-dimensional portrayals. I would encourage anyone who likes a good story to play KOTOR 1 and Mass Effect.

The Deus Ex series also deals with ethical choices in a great way. If you haven't played the first Deus Ex game on PC, you really owe it to yourself to check it out one day. Especially recommended if you consider yourself Shadowrun, Dark Matter, or Delta Green fan.

System Shock, System Shock 2, and Bioshock are all amazing games! Highly recommended.

*****SNES GAMES*****

To be honest, FF2/4 has a much more moving story than FF3/6 or FF7, but the gameplay is weakest in FF2. Really good story. It's loaded with heroic sacrifice in the face of crushing odds; just the sort of stuff that brings me to tears. The writers brazenly killed off characters left and right. Of course, the graphics are also really primitive in FF2, even by SNES standards. The Nintendo DS did a nice graphical upgrade of FF2/4, though. FF3/6 and FF7 have great stories too, and more engaging gameplay IMO. 

Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana are both wonderful. Really, they are beautiful games. Link to the Past is another masterpiece, although many like to say that this isn't an RPG. Even if it's not, it is a perfect game with a good story and compelling gameplay. The best in the series, IMO. I also agree about the original Harvest Moon. It was lovely and poetic.

(For those with action platformer love in their heart, try the Japan only releases of Magical Pop'n and DoReMi Fantasy)

*****PSX GAMES*****

Suikoden 1 and 2, Xenogears (can't believe no one has mentioned Xenogears yet), and let's not forget the amazing Alundra. Alundra is kind of a mix between a mature RPG (grittier in theme) and an action puzzler in the tradition of the best Zelda games. It is the spiritual successor to Sega's Landstalker duology. I already discussed FF7 above.

  Of course, if you're into medieval fantasy-themed games that play like Castlevania, I'd recommend the Japan only released action platformer called The Adventures of Little Ralph (Chippoke Ralph No Daibouken). It is so much danged FUN I can hardly contain myself! Keep in mind that the hard mode setting has additional ending stages that reveal the whole story. I also agree that FF9 is a gift from the gods.

*****PS2 GAMES*****
FF12 is awesome as well. Really great game. I haven't played FF10 but I've heard good things. DragonQuest VIII is another all around great game, but a bit cartoonish and with some silly monsters. I like it better than the earlier DragonQuest or Dragon Warrior games, which resemble FF1 a little too closely for me to enjoy. Wild Arms series is decent. Shadow of Collosus, ICO, God of War 1 and 2 are evocative masterpieces. 

Ar Tonelico 1 and 2 (to be released in Jan) make for a naughty and sexy romp, but still they still manage to develop the characters' emotions in an impressive way; they feature nice storylines too. Persona 3 and 4 are supposed to be pretty great. Any comments on those two (or any of the Digital Devil Saga)? 

Oh, and how did I almost forget the gorgeous storybook-like Odin Sphere? Best olde schoole feeling game on the console and dripping with gorgeousity and smarts. Holy crapola is Odin Sphere good. Oh, and another underrated masterpiece is Okami. This has now released across a few platforms, I believe ...

*****NINTENDO DS*****

I hear that Etrian Odyssey 1 and 2 and Golden Sun 1 and 2 are all good, but I have yet to play any of these. Anyone enjoy them? The World Ends With You is another Square title that is reputed to be great.

A great source for reviews is the metareview site: Game Rankings - Video Game Reviews, Release Dates, Cheat Codes

*see discussion below


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## RichGreen (Dec 27, 2008)

Hi,

I'd go for Baldur's Gate II Shadows of Amn and FF7. I haven't played FF6 or Planescape:Torment and I really didn't like Morrowind - the world was too _brown_. Oblivion was really cool at first but I got bored after 50+ hours playing it.

I got Fallout 3 and Fable II for Christmas and have high hopes for both.

Cheers


Richard


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## resistor (Dec 27, 2008)

dragonlordofpoondari said:


> All 3 Fallout games are wonderful all around. I enjoy Fallout 3 the most for the gameplay and the worldbuilding/realism more than the story, which is still astonishingly good. It has one minor flaw that I can't bring up w/o spoiling anything. I would advise anyone who plays it to keep a lot of save files (that is to say, don't just re-write over the same save file).




Really?  I found the story of Fallout 3... rather lacking.  The world is big and well built, but there's a grand total of ~17 quests in that entire giant world.  And, as the OP quoted, wandering around looking for uber-loot doesn't keep me interested for long.

To compound it, I didn't think what storyline there was, was that great.  To make it concrete, at the dramatic choice at the end, I found that I didn't really give a damn, because _I didn't care about the other character involved._



Spoiler



What the plotline really needed to make the final choice meaningful was a chance for Sarah Lyons to be a romantic interest, or at least _some_ reason for me to care about her at all.



I saw it well summarized by a poster on Ars Technica: FO3 is broad, but not deep.  There's a huge world, but not actually a lot of story.  And what story there is, is fairly shallow.  One sequence of plotline quests, and a handful of one-off sidequests.  As another example, it really bothered me that I went on this huge quest for Lucy West, and after it's done she doesn't act any different than before I did it.  _Way_ too static.

All of this criticism aside, I did enjoy the game, but I wouldn't classify it in my list of best CRPGs.  Somewhere in the "enjoyable for a while, but wouldn't play again" range.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 27, 2008)

The Witcher isn't bad, either, I think, especially since you get to pick your side during the story-line and this appears to have a meaningful influence. (Well, I have to run it again sometimes.) 

For example, I liked that you gained a certain respect and maybe even friendship with a few characters, and due to your decisions you might later find yourself fighting against him.


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## dragonlordofpoondari (Dec 27, 2008)

resistor said:


> To compound it, I didn't think what storyline there was, was that great. To make it concrete, at the dramatic choice at the end, I found that I didn't really give a damn, because _I didn't care about the other character involved._




Fair enough. I grant that "astonishingly good" may have been straying toward hyperbole in regarding the story, but I do believe it to be an astonishingly good game. That's why I was saying that I enjoy the world more than the story. I should have changed the word "astonishing" to "engaging." Oh, I just did.

I admit I have not completed the main quest yet; I am only about 30 hours in and have been in post apocalyptic heaven thus far. I was warned/spoiled by some friends about flaw near the end you allude to. Hence, I've spent a bunch of time pursuing as many side quests a possible and just exploring the expansive world, which is gratifying in and of itself. It doesn't hurt that I visit family in DC every year, so it is a real kick to see my familiar capital turned into a beautiful PA wasteland.

I also noticed the Lucy West thing, but I was impressed how they covered continuity in countless other instances 



Spoiler



(3 Dog's replacement, rescued adoptees in the right places and displaying the appropriate gratitude, etc).


 As huge as this game is, I can personally forgive the designers overlooking one character's lack of gratitude. She does seem happy to see me on occasion, though. 

Let's face it, the much vaunted Fallout 2 game was a lot worse in that regard. Continuity issues were so bad and buggy that we called it the "Fallout Disease." 



Spoiler



After slaughtering every raider in the world, people in town would still complain and insist that "something would have to be done about these raiders."


 Fallout 3 is much less buggy in dealing with continuity issues.


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## mrswing (Dec 27, 2008)

The Witcher is a very good CRPG story because you actually play a character, and people react to him with prior knowledge etc. One of the most immersive CRPGs I ever played. And several different endings are possible - there's no good/evil choice, rather pick a side or stay neutral and live with the consequences. (the identity of the final villain came as quite an emotional shock to me, for instance, never had that happen before in a CRPG). 
Apart from that, I echo the recommedations for Torment, BGII and Fallout 1 & 2 and KOTOR. And I had fun with Jade Empire too.


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## Center-of-All (Dec 27, 2008)

#1: Odin Sphere. The interplay between the various character's stories, as you find a passing mention in one of something vitally important in another. Bits and pieces of what's really going on in the world get slowly revealed to you as you dig deeper into the game, with themes as diverse as romance, identity, fate, and responsibility. An absolutely brilliant piece of storytelling, and the voice acting isn't half bad either.

#2: Final Fantasy Tactics. The epitome of Byzantine politics, playing right out in front of your screen. Enough twists and turns to keep you riveted to the screen, with some mildly cliche swerves thrown in for good measure. Trying to keep everything straight is an intensive, and incredibly rewarding, effort.

#3: Final Fantasy X. This was, I think, the first time square really hit it with regards to world building. Spira is as interesting and well-developed world as you'll get short of Tolkien, and unlike it's absolutely atrocious successor (not counting XI) it didn't sacrifice character to do it. Also, Tidus remains the most realistic and best developed main character in the Final Fantasy series. Voice acting could use some work, though it gets bonus points for having the best minigame, period.

#4: Disgaea (any of them). The ultimate in JSRPGs. Enough grinding to consume several thousand hours if you so choose, and so absolutely rediculous that you can't help but laugh at any given plot point. The geekier you are, the funnier these games will be. Any game that describes an Assassin's Bow as "best used from a grassy knoll" can't be anything short of gold.

#5: Final Fantasy IX. A breath of fresh air for the series. Between likeable characters and an engaging plot, a very solid game. Plus, for the first time  in years we have a protagonist who has removed the stick from his rectum. Mostly, though, it's on here due to having perhaps the single best presentation of Identity as a theme in video games, something that I feel is too ignored.


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## Kzach (Dec 27, 2008)

I tried playing through Torment and got bored very quickly. I pioneered on simply due to everyone heaping praise on it. I kept waiting for it to grip me in some way, but it never did. It just kept getting even more dull. I don't understand why people find it so compelling. It's neither original nor particularly clever.

If one considers World of Warcraft an RPG, which is a topic for another thread, then I would say that hands down it has the best story-line. I've never been into the story of WoW very much simply because the original campaign is very uninvolving. You're very much a witness to the story rather than a part of it.

Then the xpac (The Burning Crusade) improved things a little bit, but I tuned out 'cause it was aliens from outer-space to me (yes, I know that's not technically the case, but...) which put sci-fi in my fantasy and that's like putting orange juice on cornflakes to me (in other words, foul and disgusting, despite the fact that I just KNOW people are going to say, "yummy!").

However, with the advent of 'phasing' in the new game, even I got caught up in the story. It's very much improved the 'grind' of the game and turned the questing into a very cool and involving story-line where you are the central character of an evolving story.

To explain, phasing is essentially a clever way of making the game world interactive whilst working within the confines of a constant environment. Instead of changing the environment, it changes the characters PERCEPTION of the environment. Doing this allows the developers to focus the story on your character. The quests you undertake MEAN something, because to your character, the environment changes to reflect your success.

A good example is one quest chain where you have to infiltrate an enemy stronghold. You gain a few allies, cull a few of their number, and take on the big guy, and once you've done that, the entire area changes to become a base that is friendly to you and has vendors and NPC's and extra quests. Again, technically the area hasn't changed, only the character's perception of it.

The backstory to WoW is incredibly detailed. You might not think WoW is a CRPG, but you have to agree that the story behind it is pretty amazing.


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## Spatula (Dec 27, 2008)

CleverNickName said:


> In your opinion...game mechanics and graphics aside...which CRPG has the best _story_?



Planescape: Torment.  The first Knights of the Old Republic would be a close second (KOTOR II is also very good, up until you hit the end of the game).

One of the tricky things about Torment is that if you just run through it with the intent of reaching the end, it won't look much different than any other D&D CRPG.  To unlock the game's full potential requires that the player be interested in exploring its nooks and crannies.  Your companions, for example, can change and grow in interesting ways but that requires that you spend a lot of time conversing with them.  Which generally isn't required to move the plot forward.  Or to run through it a second time with a different persona - like the Fallout and Baldur's Gate games, the gameworld responds to what kind of person you choose to be, but Torment is _much_ more sophisticated on that front than its predecessors.  KOTOR has similar potential but isn't as interesting, since your charcter choices tend to come down to binary light side/dark side decisions.

I love Morrowind too, but more for the world that it creates rather than the story, which I only vaguely recall.  The game environment really breathes life into the characters and the cultures that you're interacting with in a way that you rarely see in CRPGs.


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## Psion (Dec 27, 2008)

CleverNickName said:


> IMO, the CRPG with the best story has always been Super Nintendo's _Final Fantasy III_.  It has become the standard by which I compare all others.




Again assuming you mean FFIII (as originally marketed in the US), AKA FF6 in Japan and in the PS2 release?

Yep, absolutely. Great game, pulled me in totally.

Nods to PS Torment and FF7 as well.


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## Phaezen (Dec 27, 2008)

Count me in on the Planescape: Torment band wagon.

Honourable Mentions:

Baldurs Gate (I & II and the expansions)
Jade Empire
Kotor (1, 2 seemed a bit forced at the end, had heaps of potential)
The Witcher
Fallout 1,2,3 & Tactics(which is an awesome example of points of light)

Seriously looking forward to Dragonage.

Speaking of which, and possibly this should be sporked to it own thread, besides Dragonage, what else is coming out in CRPG land next year that looks good?

Phaezen


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## ProfessorCirno (Dec 27, 2008)

Now to rebuild my reputation of being a disagreeable (and disagreeING) git!

Oblivion did not help or fix any problems with Oblivion.  The setting went from interesting and unique to the same dark ages England that I'm sure none of us have gotten sick of by now slash sarcasm.  The one dimentionality of Morrowinds characters wasn't changed at all.  The skills were dumbed down even further then they were in Morrowind from Daggerfall.  Aside from the Dark Brotherhood, the quests and factions are utterly banal - you can become high archmagus with your collective magic scores all at *zero*, and the game never even bothers giving you the illusion of choice.  To top it all off, the main quest is one giant escort mission, and the game ends with a demonic invasion of ten enemies (QUITE THE ARMY THEY'VE BUILT THERE) and you're teamed up with the greatest military presence the world has ever known.  Which is five soldiers, who can easily kill the invading demons on their own.  But don't worry, that's just the end of YOUR role - the game itself concludes in a fantastic battle between the end boss and the DMPC while you stare paralyzed!  Because when I think of awesome gripping endings, I think of *NPCs fighting other NPCs.*

Fallout three is 4/5ths good depending on how you look at it.  Bethesda learned in almost all aspects.  I'd love to say combat can be boring and easy, but quite frankly, there's something I found inherintly entertaining about going Fist of the North Star on any enemy I saw.  I say "depending on how you look at it," because the game could be called Grim and Gritty Adventures in Grey and Brown Land for all it has to do with Fallout.  Oh sure, it has a few throw outs, but that's really what they are; throw outs.  If you judge it as a Fallout game, it falls short, but if you judge it as a Bethesda game in the future, it excells, and I'm not ashamed to say it's one of the recent games I've really enjoyed in the pitiful wasteland that is modern gaming (especially for us poor RPG fans).  So why 4/5ths?  Because the ending will ruin you.  The ending will *ruin* you.  It will destroy any good feelings you have for the game.  For every positive remark about this game that you make up until the ending, you will feel more and more insulted.  You will create a blog on the internet just to rant about how much you despise this ending.  It really and honestly is that bad.  End result?  Fun game, do not, for the love of god, *do not* do the main quest through to the end.  Oh, and the radio is awesome because 1) the music is great, and 2) the _in game_ music is _horrible_.

Mass Effect is entertaining in one and only one way - treat it like a B movie.  Something you'd watch with the help of your robot friends.  Go max intimidate, grab everyone's collar, and think of it as a so-bad-it's-good action movie.  The NPCs are the usual host of whiny co-dependent child-men who could never exist on their own in real life yet somehow have become an elite team of fightan mans, except the whiny co-dependent alien woman romance option and the male jedi (bionics are jedi powers, yes they are) romance option.  Those are whiny co-dependent child-men and, well, child-alien, who can not only exist on their own in real life but, quite frankly, would weight about a thousand times more and would live in a house made *entirely out of cats*.  Go for the human woman - she's the only one that approches more then one dimention as a character, even if Bioware fans hate her (most likely because she approches having more then one dimention as a character).  You will learn to loathe elevators.  And for the love of god, never, *ever* get in that MAKO, because whoever designed that needs to be shot out of a canon, and not in the cool circus way, but in a way that ensures said person dies in a horrible manner, and is then spread everywhere.


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## dragonlordofpoondari (Dec 27, 2008)

Kzach said:


> The backstory to WoW is incredibly detailed. You might not think WoW is a CRPG, but you have to agree that the story behind it is pretty amazing.




Like George Lucas, Blizzard steals from the best and reconstitutes. They do so with a measure of panache, but it has become a bit of a kitchen sink metastory. Seriously. What doesn't get stolen by and incorporated into WoW?

Penny Arcade! - I Hope You Like Text

BTW, the story has way too many big bads who used to be great heroes but they have fallen and now they're brooding and evil. Nooooooo. How many of these guys are really necessary?


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## dragonlordofpoondari (Dec 27, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> interesting things




I like your ideas. At the same time, I feel like it's easy to be a critic. I find a lot to love about the stories in both Oblivion and Mass Effect. I mean, I don't think we need a separate standard for CRPGs, but we can't always expect Proust here, can we? They're well written and executed. That counts for a lot in my book.

Morrowind's world was teeming with flavor, for sure, but I liked Oblivion specifically because of the traditional European feel. It was triumphantly vanilla and I loved it! Sometimes vanilla is exactly what I'm craving ...

Re: Fallout 3 ... let me enjoy it while I can, dammit! From what I've heard, I agree with a lot of what you say here.

Re: me just noticing my excessive posting in this thread ... makes me think ... I miss Nightfall.


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (Dec 27, 2008)

My faves in terms of engrossing story (in no particular order):

Morrowind
Planescape: Torment
Fallout 1 & 2 (started 3, but it's on the shelf until a patch comes out)
The Witcher
Ultima series (not including 8 and 9, which were crap... VII and VII Part 2... absolutely amazing)
Baldur's Gate II
Knights of the Old Republic


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## Shadeydm (Dec 27, 2008)

Center-of-All said:


> #2: Final Fantasy Tactics. The epitome of Byzantine politics, playing right out in front of your screen. Enough twists and turns to keep you riveted to the screen, with some mildly cliche swerves thrown in for good measure. Trying to keep everything straight is an intensive, and incredibly rewarding, effort.



I love this game and the War of the Roses storyline.
Someday I am going to run a DnD campaign based on the Lion War perhaps with one of the PCs playing the role of Ramza.


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## Pants (Dec 27, 2008)

resistor said:


> Really?  I found the story of Fallout 3... rather lacking.  The world is big and well built, but there's a grand total of ~17 quests in that entire giant world.  And, as the OP quoted, wandering around looking for uber-loot doesn't keep me interested for long.



I'd prefer Quality over Quantity and, from most of the quests I've done, they're all pretty damn good, a far cry from all of Morrowind's and most of Oblivions



> To compound it, I didn't think what storyline there was, was that great.  To make it concrete, at the dramatic choice at the end, I found that I didn't really give a damn, because _I didn't care about the other character involved._



Personally I found the main storyline pretty good... up until the ending which was just bad. Very, very bad. But the lead up to it was enjoyable. 



Spoiler



C'mon, the Communism-hating robot was just gold.





> I saw it well summarized by a poster on Ars Technica: FO3 is broad, but not deep.  There's a huge world, but not actually a lot of story.  And what story there is, is fairly shallow.  One sequence of plotline quests, and a handful of one-off sidequests.  As another example, it really bothered me that I went on this huge quest for Lucy West, and after it's done she doesn't act any different than before I did it.  _Way_ too static.



I was kinda disappointed with that, but the rest of quests are better, in that they have consequences to them. 



Spoiler



The Tenpenny Tower quests for example. I took the supposedly 'good' option and... well... it didn't end up being so good.





> All of this criticism aside, I did enjoy the game, but I wouldn't classify it in my list of best CRPGs.  Somewhere in the "enjoyable for a while, but wouldn't play again" range.



I agree. It's good, probably my favorite game released this year, but it's not the best. I do think that the ending can color many people's perceptions of the rest of the game though.


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## resistor (Dec 27, 2008)

Pants said:


> I'd prefer Quality over Quantity and, from most of the quests I've done, they're all pretty damn good, a far cry from all of Morrowind's and most of Oblivions




I didn't like Morrowind or Oblivion either.  ;-)



> Personally I found the main storyline pretty good... up until the ending which was just bad. Very, very bad. But the lead up to it was enjoyable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The 



Spoiler



robot


 was pretty hilarious, but I found the pacing leading up to the final quest really wonky.  It went leisurely pace, leisurely pace, leisurely pace, OMGWTF, *END*.  It seemed like all the characters went from fairly laid back to "OMG, we must act now!" implausibly quickly.  Basically, I didn't feel that the plotline built tension well, but rather tried to cram it all into the lasts quest or two.



> I was kinda disappointed with that, but the rest of quests are better, in that they have consequences to them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'd say it was pretty mixed, overall.  If you choose the negative outcome for Megaton (



Spoiler



detonating the bomb


), you get some negative karma.  Period.  No real repercussions for doing something massively, incredibly evil.  People don't shun you.  Nobody tries to exact vengeance on you.  



Spoiler



There's one survivor, Moira, but even though she's been ghoulified, she doesn't seem to care very much!


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## CleverNickName (Dec 27, 2008)

Psion said:


> Again assuming you mean FFIII (as originally marketed in the US), AKA FF6 in Japan and in the PS2 release?



Yup, I ammended my previous post to remove any confusion.  



Darkwolf71 said:


> I have a working theory that everyone's favorite FF game coincides with their first FF game.



Interesting theory, but it doesn't apply to me.  My first FF experience was with FF1 on the NES, back in the 80's.  I didn't particularly care for it...in fact, I beat it in less than a week and never played it again.

Then I played FF2 (also on the NES), and while I liked it better than the first one, the story wasn't particularly memorable.

Then I played FF3 (aka FF6 in Japan), and it changed the way that I look at CRPGs forever.


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## CleverNickName (Dec 27, 2008)

I am loving this thread.    I also like how everyone is being very spoiler-safe, and either masking their text or encapsulating it in SBLOCKs.  You guys rock!

Yesterday, I placed an order on Amazon for Planescape: Torment, since it comes so highly recommended by my fellow ENWorlders.  I am squeaky with excitement over it, and can't wait for it to get here so I can start playing it.

Based on what I've read in this thread, though, there are a ton of good CRPGs out there that I have missed out on.  Most of them sound like they would be right up my alley, too.  So I am adding the following on my must-play list of CRPGs:

Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Balder's Gate II
Final Fantasy Tactics
Final Fantasy X
Suikoden 1
Suikoden 2

Now, I've heard good things about Fable and Fable 2 from a coworker...but nobody has mentioned them yet.  I've never played them myself, but he has offered to loan them to me whenever I want to try them out.  Are they worth my time?


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 27, 2008)

Fable and Fable 2 are quite good, really. I'd rank them high because of how flexible the story is. 

I'm saving this thread for my post-christmas buying sprees, too.


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## ProfessorCirno (Dec 27, 2008)

The great thing about PS:T is that it's actually rather hard to spoil it.  It's not just the story itself that makes the game so wonderful, but how it's told - you'll want to talk to every NPC you come across (and you come across a lot), and you'll talk to your companions multiple times.  And I do mean multiple times.  Personally, I'd recommend strongly that you go mage, if just because intelligence, charisma, and wisdom are probably your three most important stats in the game, and not because they help you do the fightan, but because they add so much to dialogue.

On a side note, I recommend you read Dungeons and Dreamers.  It's a great book and has a lot about cRPGs and tabletop gaming, and how they're related.


Oh, and a note on the console games - avoid the re-translated Chrono Trigger for the DS.  Instead of localizing it with *awesome* they did a stupifyingly bad blind translation, and the game became a lot more needlessly wordy and lost a lot of charm.

Also, I cannot forgive myself for missing this, but Lunar: Silver Story Complete and Lunar: Eternal Blue Complete are both utterly fantastic.  Someone mentioned Oblivion being vanilla in a good way, but for me, these two games fit that description perfectly.  The setting is fun and familiar, the story is gripping even with it's slight predictability, and the characters aren't cliche for the same reason Rocky isn't cliche - because they're genuine.  It's vanilla like ice cream - some people may find it plain at times, but it's *always* delicious for *everyone*.


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## Askaval30 (Dec 27, 2008)

Nostalgia kicked in upon re-reading this thread: I'm off to install P:Torment again!

what a genius of a game.


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## TheSleepyKing (Dec 28, 2008)

resistor said:


> Really?  I found the story of Fallout 3... rather lacking.  The world is big and well built, but there's a grand total of ~17 quests in that entire giant world.  And, as the OP quoted, wandering around looking for uber-loot doesn't keep me interested for long.
> 
> To compound it, I didn't think what storyline there was, was that great.  To make it concrete, at the dramatic choice at the end, I found that I didn't really give a damn, because _I didn't care about the other character involved._
> 
> ...




I kind of agree with you. The plot of Fallout 3 seemed to be a rehash of the (brilliant) plotlines of the first two games. It didn't add to the mythology of the Fallout world at all. I did enjoy playing it, though -- it's still a fantastic game.
Another vote for Planescape: Torment here as well (although it's so text-heavy the game can drag a little). Mass Effect is also very good -- a fully realised universe built from scratch.
Is there no love for the old SSI "Gold Box" games (Pool of Radiance et al.), Lands of Lore or Thief: The Dark Project games here, though?


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## Spatula (Dec 28, 2008)

TheSleepyKing said:


> Is there no love for the old SSI "Gold Box" games (Pool of Radiance et al.)... games here, though?



As very fun AD&D tactical simulators, yes.
As great or interesting stories, no, not really.


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## Leatherhead (Dec 28, 2008)

Kzach said:


> I tried playing through Torment and got bored very quickly. I pioneered on simply due to everyone heaping praise on it. I kept waiting for it to grip me in some way, but it never did. It just kept getting even more dull. I don't understand why people find it so compelling. It's neither original nor particularly clever.
> 
> If one considers World of Warcraft an RPG, which is a topic for another thread, then I would say that hands down it has the best story-line. I've never been into the story of WoW very much simply because the original campaign is very uninvolving. You're very much a witness to the story rather than a part of it.
> 
> ...




WoWs backstory is rewritten far too often for my tastes. It is interesting in it's own way however, things like elves being mutant trolls are a nice touch.

But more importantly: Phasing is neat in concept, but horrible in practice. It is fun to see the world change when you are soloing, but trying to get a group to do anything while even so much as one character is in a different phase is impossible, defeating the purpose of a massively-multiplayer game.


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## Wayside (Dec 28, 2008)

Kzach said:


> I tried playing through Torment and got bored very quickly. I pioneered on simply due to everyone heaping praise on it. I kept waiting for it to grip me in some way, but it never did. It just kept getting even more dull. I don't understand why people find it so compelling. It's neither original nor particularly clever.



I think it holds up well next to other games and genre fiction. People whose literary tastes are a little more highbrow, though, won't be impressed by PS:T's "serious" themes.

My vote would also go to either FFIV or VI (that's II or III in the states, respectively).


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## mmu1 (Dec 28, 2008)

I suppose I'll throw in another vote for Planescape: Torment.

I have to say I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Betrayal at Krondor yet - not too much, though, since it's a hugely under-rated game that never got the recognition it deserves. (largely in part due to less then stellar graphics)

The Witcher is great, and I think it's another game that just didn't get remotely the recognition it deserved. I lost count of the reviews I've read that read overwhelmingly positive, even enthusiastic, only to give the game an 8/10 - it's like "made in Poland", by some unspoken agreement, translated into "-10 percentile points". (or rave reviews of the enhanced edition that got the same or barely improved scores as the original... WTF?) It has an engaging story that's pretty damn original, and it's also quite a long, substantial story, especially by today's standards - which is something that is no longer true about too many games. (Mass Effect, I'm looking at you. Amazing digital actors don't make up for a 20-hour storyline)

Deus Ex I think also deserves at the very least an honorable mention - it's an RPG in all the ways that matter, even if it's missing most of the fiddly bits in the stat department, and it's got one hell of a story.


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## Sabathius42 (Dec 28, 2008)

resistor said:


> Really?  I found the story of Fallout 3... rather lacking.  The world is big and well built, but there's a grand total of ~17 quests in that entire giant world.  And, as the OP quoted, wandering around looking for uber-loot doesn't keep me interested for long.




There is more to a game than quests which are marked in your journal and need ticking off to count as "done".

I think my favorite thing encountered so far in FO3 has been the Dunwich Building and it has nothing to do with any quest in the game.  It DOES have its own story and reasons to explore and enjoy it.

So, while the number of "quests" may be 17 there are a heck of a lot more stories to be uncovered than that.

DS


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## Sabathius42 (Dec 28, 2008)

Oh, and my vote for best computer game story goes to....

Star Control II

...and its not even an RPG!

Just playing the first 15 minutes until you meet Fwiffo and learn the tale of how the Spathi and Ilwrath came to guard the enslaved Earth (and why only one ship with one being is left guarding) lets you know how awesome the game is gonna be.

DS


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 28, 2008)

dragonlordofpoondari said:


> Link to the Past is another masterpiece, although many like to say that this isn't an RPG. Even if it's not, it is a perfect game with a good story and compelling gameplay. The best in the series, IMO.




I thought it was classified as an "Action/RPG"?  I didn't include it since it isn't purely an RPG, but a thousand times yes!  I also consider it the best game in the series, with the best gameplay and a great back story that ended up shaping the stories for the more popular (but IMO vastly inferior) N64 titles.  I have to say I haven't played Twilight Princess yet, but excluding that, the next best game in the series for plot is Wind Waker (which also ha great gameplay).  While most Zelda games start with a rich background story that then largely fades away while the game progresses, WW has a fairly simple starting story and builds on it as the game progresses, with some of the most fleshed-out side characters in a Zelda game.  So I'll also recommend Wind Waker.

But yeah, Link to the Past is my all-time favorite game, and I think everyone should play it at some point.


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## TwinBahamut (Dec 28, 2008)

The all-time greatest story in an RPG belongs to _Xenogears_, hands down. The game is horribly incomplete thanks to budget cuts late in its production and has a mediocre translation, but it is still heads and shoulders above everything else I have ever seen. It fluidly climbs from a humble story to something truly epic in scale, and I have never seen such incredibly plot twists be delivered so believably as in that game. It has everything from complex Judeo-Christian allegories to random mecha anime references, and it has one of the best love stories I have ever seen in a videogame. This one definitely rocks.

_Suikoden II_ has a great story, easily the best of any of the Suikoden series (which other than IV is superb). _Suikoden III_ has the better game mechanics and a few great moments, and _Suikoden V_ is very good, but in terms of raw story _Suikoden II_ is the best.

_Vagrant Story_ may not exactly be a normal RPG, but it is nonetheless a fantastic game with an equally fantastic story. This one succeeds simply by mixing intrigue, mystery, and a very personal story in a nearly perfect balance.

_Final Fantasy Tactics_ is a great one. I wish that I had a chance to play its spiritual predecessor, _Tactics Ogre_, more than I did, since there were signs that the older game may have had an even better story...

_Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 FES_ is a wonderful game with a very good story (and a long title). Extremely believable and likable characters make this one work, and the setting and struggles they have to deal with only add to that. This is the only game I have seen where a choice between the good ending and the bad one is actually meaningful and thought-provoking. I can't wait until I finally get _Persona 4_.

It is a bit obscure, but the old action-RPG _Illusion of Gaia_ has a great story as well.

_Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter_ is probably more memorable for its unusual game mechanics, but it has an extremely emotional and personal story designed with the same style and emotion that made _Vagrant Story_ so great. If you go into this game wanting it to be a fairly ordinary RPG like the other Breath of fire games, you will probably hate it, but it meshes game mechanics and story together in an incredible way to get an incredibly unique effect.

There are a lot of other RPGs I truly love out there, such as most of the Final Fantasy series, Chrono Trigger, Lunar, etc, but my love for them isn't as story-based as it is based on the combination of story and raw gameplay fun-factor.


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## ProfessorCirno (Dec 28, 2008)

Xenogears is good until you get to the second disk, which is where the developers ate their hands and replaced them with large chunks of ham, promptly forgetting they were making a video game.

Also my god I cannot believe someone beat me to Dragon Quarter.  Especially considering I'm one out of the ten people in the entire universe that liked it.

I recently replayed Illusion of Gaia and I cannot believe how I missed some of these things when I was a kid.  Good lord, this game is *dark*.  And I don't refer to the in-game lighting.


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## MichaelSomething (Dec 28, 2008)

You people and your fancy smancy games you buy in a store!  Instead of paying $60 for a soulless peice of junk put out by a wage-slave-cog of the giant coporate greed machine; why don't you search the internet for some REAL games like...

Charles Barkley Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden Chapter 1 of the Hoopz Barkley SaGa


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## Wereserpent (Dec 28, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Also, I cannot forgive myself for missing this, but Lunar: Silver Story Complete and Lunar: Eternal Blue Complete are both utterly fantastic.  Someone mentioned Oblivion being vanilla in a good way, but for me, these two games fit that description perfectly.  The setting is fun and familiar, the story is gripping even with it's slight predictability, and the characters aren't cliche for the same reason Rocky isn't cliche - because they're genuine.  It's vanilla like ice cream - some people may find it plain at times, but it's *always* delicious for *everyone*.




I love you.

Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete still is to this day my favorite game.


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## Silent Cartographer (Dec 28, 2008)

A few folks have mentioned examples of these, but I'll throw in a sub-genre of games that aren't CRPGS (at least not strictly), but still have some fun stories; story-driven FPSs. As mentioned, _Deus Ex_ is the top of that heap in terms of story, is a full-on hybrid Action/RPG game, and has plenty of CRPG elements. Plus, an ending (endings) worth playing all the way through for! Also have to mention _System Shock_ and _BioShock_, which are in the the same hybrid vein along with _Deus Ex_. The _Thief_ series has even better gameplay, fantastic setting and immersion, but is much more linear (or focussed) from a CRPG perspective. 

_Fallout 3_ is in this category as well, but as noted by others, is better at telling you're own story in the Fallout setting than telling a particularly compelling story of theirs. The Bethesda-style sandbox games are all like that; FO3 is simply the best example of the type.


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## Mallus (Dec 29, 2008)

Sabathius42 said:


> Oh, and my vote for best computer game story goes to....
> 
> Star Control II
> 
> ...and its not even an RPG!



I can't believe I forget SCII!!!



> Just playing the first 15 minutes until you meet Fwiffo and learn the tale of how the Spathi and Ilwrath came to guard the enslaved Earth...



My favorite bit is the story of how the ZotFotPik discovered fire, the wheel and religion simultaneously.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 29, 2008)

Illusion of Gaia is worth a second mention. That's a very good game with a dynamite story. And one of the few games where you can beat monsters to death with a flute. 

I'd also recommend The World Ends With You. The use of fashion as a mirror for the soul is very cool and the story is quite dark with some interestingly memorable characters, and the dual-screen mechanic for rewarding teamwork is bonzer as well.


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## Brown Jenkin (Dec 29, 2008)

I am going to put in for another MMO but one that I find has a compelling story.

_Lord of the Rings Online_: While it is an MMO it also has an major story arc serries of quests (covering all levels) that runs parallel to the Lord of the Rings storyline. This can be ignored entirely by those who don't care, but for those like myself that love middle earth this adds an extra dimension. Plus I also find that the graphics are fantastic and have been done with as much respect for the original novels as Peter Jackson had while still converting them to a new medium.


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## scrubkai (Dec 29, 2008)

If we are evaluating a game only on it's story my favorate is PS:T.   But then I'm someone who tends to talk to every NPC and really get their money worth from a game, and that game really needed that to get the max enjoyment out of it.

In the non RPG world:  The first Gabriel Knight was pretty good, as was Star Control II.



Mallus said:


> My favorite bit is the story of how the ZotFotPik discovered fire, the wheel and religion simultaneously.




There were so many good parts of that game it's hard to pick one favorite part....   But if I was to pick just one, I actually would have to say it's the running commentary from each race at the end of the credits.

SC II is the only story type game I've ever gone back and replayed years later.  I knew the story, and remembered generally where most of the "quests" were leading me, but I played the entire game again just to bask in the flavor of each of the different races.

Oh and I wanted to check in on the Frungy game


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## TwinBahamut (Dec 29, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Xenogears is good until you get to the second disk, which is where the developers ate their hands and replaced them with large chunks of ham, promptly forgetting they were making a video game.



Err, not quite... As I said, _Xenogears_ suffered from budget issues. The second disk is where Final Fantasy 7 ran over-budget and Xenogears got cannibalized. Xenogears still has the better story, though. 



> Also my god I cannot believe someone beat me to Dragon Quarter.  Especially considering I'm one out of the ten people in the entire universe that liked it.



It is definitely an underrated game. The game has incredible mood, a touching story, and great gameplay. It is a real shame that the future of the entire Breath of Fire series is in question now, with Capcom officially stating that they have no plans to make another one anytime soon...



> I recently replayed Illusion of Gaia and I cannot believe how I missed some of these things when I was a kid.  Good lord, this game is *dark*.  And I don't refer to the in-game lighting.



Yep, it certainly has some pretty grim aspects to it. I wish I actually beat the game and saw the ending, but the final boss is a killer, and the secret boss might be worse... I really wish that the Soul Blazer/Illusion of Gaia/Terranigma trilogy would get released on the Wii Virtual Console or something.


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## guivre (Dec 29, 2008)

Center-of-All said:


> #3: Final Fantasy X. This was, I think, the first time square really hit it with regards to world building. Spira is as interesting and well-developed world as you'll get short of Tolkien, and unlike it's absolutely atrocious successor (not counting XI) it didn't sacrifice character to do it. Also, Tidus remains the most realistic and best developed main character in the Final Fantasy series. Voice acting could use some work, though it gets bonus points for having the best minigame, period.





X really doesn't get nearly enough credit.  Between the raging arguments between the "16 bit Final Fantasy games were so much better" elitists and those whose first FF game was VII (some of the former category in here too, they just think it's cooler to like VI or IV or whatever) it gets lost in the shuffle.

Having played every Final Fantasy, including XI, X is really my favorite. Right now I consider it the peak of what Square has been able to do with the series. The story was well paced, immersive, and intriguing.  The characters were like-able and well thought out. The graphics and music were fantastic. The gameplay was dead on: from the basic mechanics to the side quests and blitzball it was just really well implemented. If I had to pick one console RPG as my favorite X would be it. But really there are a host of them that should be played: the entire FF series (almost entire), Earth Bound, the Breath of Fire series, Xeno Gears, the Dragon Warrior series (VIII was cell shaded goodness), Mass Effect.. it's hard to stop listing them.

PC RPGS are a different beast and Fallouts 1 and 2 pretty much own the market IMO. Torment is good,  Baldur's Gate, Pool of Radiance (everyone should play at least one Gold Box game), Arcanum... same problem here, it's difficult to choose just one.


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## guivre (Dec 29, 2008)

Silent Cartographer said:


> _Fallout 3_ is in this category as well, but as noted by others, is better at telling you're own story in the Fallout setting than telling a particularly compelling story of theirs. The Bethesda-style sandbox games are all like that; FO3 is simply the best example of the type.




Fallouts I and II set the standard for that type of game. Bethesda managed to get about 80% there. I went in with low expectations after seeing the travesty that is Oblivion, but they definitely did a good job with the franchise. It wasn't as good as it could have been, but it was well executed.

It is true though that people that look at the main storyline quests of Fallout 3 and complain about the length are missing the point, it's unfortunate to have to put it this way but they are _playing it wrong._ The game (and the other fallouts) are about telling your own story along the way to the plot ending, the side quests you encounter, those you choose to do, and how you choose to do them are intended to be different every time you play. You're not supposed to go in and try to do everything on one play through (and that's not even linearly possible) you're supposed to just play and explore (in the "oh that looks interesting let me follow up" sense rather than the "let me cover every last bit of ground" sense. If you ask friends how their game unfolded they may (and probably will) have a different story to tell than yours.


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## Sabathius42 (Dec 30, 2008)

scrubkai said:


> Oh and I wanted to check in on the Frungy game




Thank you for playing Star Control II - The Ur-Quan Masters.
        This game has been brought to you by
        Frungy! The Sport of Kings!
No it wasn't!
        Yes it was!
Frungy had nothing to do with it!
This game was about war, slavery, intolerance
heroism, justice, and the inevitable triumph of Good over Evil!
        Are you crazy?! The developers got millions in Frungy endorsements!


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## resistor (Dec 30, 2008)

guivre said:


> X really doesn't get nearly enough credit.  Between the raging arguments between the "16 bit Final Fantasy games were so much better" elitists and those whose first FF game was VII (some of the former category in here too, they just think it's cooler to like VI or IV or whatever) it gets lost in the shuffle.
> 
> Having played every Final Fantasy, including XI, X is really my favorite. Right now I consider it the peak of what Square has been able to do with the series. The story was well paced, immersive, and intriguing.  The characters were like-able and well thought out. The graphics and music were fantastic. The gameplay was dead on: from the basic mechanics to the side quests and blitzball it was just really well implemented. If I had to pick one console RPG as my favorite X would be it.




I really like FF X as well, but it's the only one I've played, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment. ;-)


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## ProfessorCirno (Dec 30, 2008)

The problems with FFX was in 1) the characters (Or rather, Tidus and Yuna.  Wakka was pretty annoying, but he was liveable; those two were horribly done and unsympathetic), and 2) the atrociously bad dubs.  AH HA HA HA HA.  AH HA HA HA HA HA HA.  AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 30, 2008)

I'm a little late to the party.  

For PC, there's little left to be said besides PS:T.  Sabathius is totally correct about Star Control 2 though.  Just avoid SC3.

For console... I'll add my vote to Suikoden, except 4 (which blew, IMO).

I'm an SNES-era (4,5,6) FF fan (though my first was FF1, sorry Darkwolf), especially with regards to the stories.  After that, I'm not so much a fan of the stories, though 9 is alright and 10 at least had excellent gameplay.

Final Fantasy Tactics has an excellent story... if you can stand the absolutely shoddy translation.  The gameplay leaves a little to be desired, but is good enough.

I'll throw in Lufia 2, especially the ending.  Also, I'll mention Wild Arms 1 and 2 as having decent storylines as well.

Really, the best console game ever though is Chrono Trigger, hands down.  It's a bit on the easy side, but the story makes a huge impression and the characters are well done.

Xenogears, on the other hand, I can not disagree with more.  I found the gameplay very tedious and boring, to the point of actually detracting from the story.  As others have mentioned, it completely broke down in the second half.  IMO one of the most overrated games ever.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 30, 2008)

Lufia deserves a second nod. It was interesting. 



			
				ProfC said:
			
		

> The problems with FFX was in 1) the characters (Or rather, Tidus and Yuna. Wakka was pretty annoying, but he was liveable; those two were horribly done and unsympathetic), and 2) the atrociously bad dubs. AH HA HA HA HA. AH HA HA HA HA HA HA. AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.




Well, the first is pretty subjective. Tidus (and Zidanne and Vaan) fits a certain archetype that is kind of on the opposite side of the "cynicism vs. optimism" scale from Cloud (and Squall). Which one one finds more annoying largely depends on their sympathy for antiheroes vs. old-skool heroes. 

The second...yeah, that laugh was horrible. But for 70 hours, I've got no problem with the vast majority of it. I can say it was better quality than most anime dubs, which is slightly damning with faint praise, but more on-point with how they probably went about finding voice actors who could dub the US version. Kind of makes me wish there was an option to hear Japanese audio with Engilsh subtitles....


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## Center-of-All (Dec 30, 2008)

What KM said. I vastly preferred Tidus and Zidane to Cloud and Squall in terms of sympathy, and about on par with Terra. (Vaan was terrible, though; I've never seen a "main"character with so little characterization in an RPG). And yes, that laugh is probably the single worst piece of voice acting I've ever heard, but I found the rest of the game tolerable-to-good, pretty much the only point that XII improved on.

Also, if possible, get the PSP version of Tactics. They did a retranslation (it sounds alot like pseudomedieval speek, actually; lots of thee's and thou's), plus it has a few extras. Probably also easier to find.


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## ProfessorCirno (Dec 30, 2008)

Hey now, I hated Cloud and Squall just as much as I couldn't stand Tidus ;p

As for FF11, here's the thing to keep in mind: the story was changed at the last minute to make Vaan the main character, because Squaresoft felt they needed a bishounen protagonist.  He was originally just a side character, but since he was the prettiest, at the last minute, he became the most important.


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## avin (Dec 30, 2008)

Morrowind and Oblivion bored me to tears. Daggerfall had a better story, with the dead king shouting "VENGEANCE" at the middle of the night.

FO3 does not exist. It does not deserve its name. Oblivion with guns.

Nobody mentioned Arcanum? 

I still think the best CRPG is Fallout 1. Period. No other game deserve be called RPG as FO1 and FO2... 

Planescape still has the best story, tho.

I'd like to say that probably Black Isle's canned Baldur's Gate III: The Black Hound ("you cannot kill guilt") would be a winner too.

theblackhound - The Black Hound FAQ


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## Nightchilde-2 (Dec 30, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> I have a working theory that everyone's favorite FF game coincides with their first FF game. For me, there is no question that FFVI is the best. I still play through it once evry 18 months or so.




I'll have to dispute your theory.  I started with Final Fantasy I (in the states..I think in Japan it was FFIII or something) back on the NES, but my favorite by a super huge margin FF is FFVII.

And, FFVII also happens to be my vote for best CRPG storyline, though if you can look past some of the technical flaws of the game, the story from Lost Odessy (for the Xbox 360) is terrific and full of emotion and Metal Gear Solid 4 is also very good (though I'm not that last one counts as a CRPG...).


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## Set (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't play standard computer games (only MMOs, because I like the socialization and being able to talk with / roleplay with actual people), so I'm unfamiliar with the awesomeness that is Planescape: Torment.

For MMOs, the best 'story' I've read so far is in Shadowbane.  Other MMOs, like Dark Ages of Camelot or Age of Conan have some fascinating *classes* to play and encounters and questlines and all of that, but they feel a little more class/encounter focused than world-focussed at certain times, and an obvious comparison comes to mind, which I will avoid for the sake of my sanity.

Shadowbane was the first to have such a richly detailed world that I got sucked into checking their site daily to read new stuff, long before the game was launched.

The game blows, IMO, but gosh, the world, races, professions and storyline are fascinating to read!


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## Darkwolf71 (Dec 30, 2008)

CleverNickName said:


> Interesting theory, but it doesn't apply to me.  My first FF experience was with FF1 on the NES, back in the 80's.  I didn't particularly care for it...in fact, I beat it in less than a week and never played it again.
> 
> Then I played FF2 (also on the NES), and while I liked it better than the first one, the story wasn't particularly memorable.
> 
> Then I played FF3 (aka FF6 in Japan), and it changed the way that I look at CRPGs forever.






Nightchilde-2 said:


> I'll have to dispute your theory.  I started with Final Fantasy I (in the states..I think in Japan it was FFIII or something) back on the NES, but my favorite by a super huge margin FF is FFVII.



Alright, stop jacking with my theory. It's a good one. >.<

Honestly you two are the first to ever dispute it, but I think you are also the first to say that you started with FFI.

anyway all this talk about FFX has me itching to break that one out again... Hmm.


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## Nightchilde-2 (Dec 30, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> Honestly you two are the first to ever dispute it, but I think you are also the first to say that you started with FFI.




Yeah.  I'm old school.    I started video gaming when the Atari 2600 was brand spankin' new.


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## Merlin's Shadow (Dec 30, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> Alright, stop jacking with my theory. It's a good one. >.<
> 
> Honestly you two are the first to ever dispute it, but I think you are also the first to say that you started with FFI.
> 
> anyway all this talk about FFX has me itching to break that one out again... Hmm.




Better make it a third person then.  FFI was my first FF game, but FFVI is my favorite followed by FFVII and FFIV.


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## Darkwolf71 (Dec 30, 2008)

Nightchilde-2 said:


> Yeah.  I'm old school.    I started video gaming when the Atari 2600 was brand spankin' new.




Adventure! FTW. 

Sadly, I wasn't able to get a NES and only experienced the original Zelda at a friends house. I bought my SNES in the Navy and found the newly released FF4. Didn't play FFI untill it was repackaged and rereleased on the PS.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 30, 2008)

Started with FF Tactics.

Favorite is FFIV. 

But really, I've got a soft spot for many parts of the various FF games.

#1 had that "twist" at the beginning and the end that established a bit of the mind-bending philosophy that would become staple.

#2 had a pretty epic plot, really, and a lot of drama and death.  I think it was mostly marred by a pretty annoying (and abuse-prone) advancement system.

#3 was awesome for the way the party discovered new worlds, dramatically expanding on the game every few hours until it spiralled into something HUGE.

#4 I'm partial to because of the strong themes and the sense of loss and redemption that happens with many of the characters.

#5 has that "new worlds new vistas" feel that 3 did pretty well, and the job system again, but I was a fan of a few of the characters (Faris's whole arc is very interesting)

#6 has that wonderfully expansive cast and the series' first really awesome villain. 

#7 has another awesome villain and a certain famous death scene.

#8 does a surprisingly nice job with the "memory loss" and "time travel" mind screws.

#9 has another great cast of characters and a really evocative setting.

#10 is gloriously plotted.

#11 again, has a surprisingly strong back story....it just takes forever to get to it in typical MMO mode. 

#12 makes me feel part of a living, breathing world more strongly than the ones before it. And even though Vaan wasn't supposed to be the main character, it lends to that feel very nicely: you're not a great character, you are observing great characters in action.


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## Darkwolf71 (Dec 30, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Started with FF Tactics.
> 
> Favorite is FFIV.



Alright, y'all are just being mean now. 
I'm gonna have to take my theory and go home. 


> #3 was awesome for the way the party discovered new worlds, dramatically expanding on the game every few hours until it spiralled into something HUGE.



III is the only game of the 'main' series I haven't played. I was _very_ upset when they released it on the Nintendo DS instead of the PSP.


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## frankthedm (Dec 30, 2008)

Could not stand FFTactics. Games that _punish you for your experience_ kill my interest really really fast. Especially when it is the random encounters that are what are auto-scaled to you. I can see the merits of scaling boss battles, since last i checked, those are the ones that SHOULD matter. On the other hand, if the schlubs are piggy backing my XP total, I'm turning the game off. It would not be so bad if the enemies increased in _numbers _as my characters got better, but if that goblin gained 10 levels just because I gained 10 levels, that is a dealbreaker IMHO.

I also hear you get super characters in the last chapter that make any effort put into leveling allies pretty much pointless.

FF6 is a great game that has an alright story. The characters have a ~modest~ amount of depth, but hardly a 'best story ever' candidate.


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## dragonlordofpoondari (Dec 30, 2008)

avin said:


> FO3 does not exist. It does not deserve its name. Oblivion with guns.
> 
> Nobody mentioned Arcanum?
> 
> I still think the best CRPG is Fallout 1. Period. No other game deserve be called RPG as FO1 and FO2...




I couldn't disagree more about FO3. It's a fantastic game. FO2 may have had a great story, but it was so buggy it was broken.

Two or three posters, myself included, have mentioned Arcanum upthread.


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## kitsune9 (Dec 30, 2008)

*Planescape*



Mallus said:


> There can be only one... Planescape:Torment.
> 
> (though I'm also terribly fond of the 1st console RPG I played, which would be Skies of Arcadia)




I was going to go with a couple of Japanese CRPG like FF, but yeah, this one really jumps out at me. This is the only CRPG that I've played three times from beginning to conclusion and just really enjoyed the story, the graphics, and dialog.

For me, Planescape is #1.


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## Daniel D. Fox (Dec 30, 2008)

I really, really loved the story in Vagrant Story.


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## fuindordm (Dec 30, 2008)

mmu1 said:


> I have to say I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Betrayal at Krondor yet - not too much, though, since it's a hugely under-rated game that never got the recognition it deserves. (largely in part due to less then stellar graphics)




That was a _really _fun game, but more like an interactive novel than anything else. The plot was very linear, the side quests minor... but the dialogue and story were amazing (classic Feist) and character progression very well paced.


I still have my copy, but good luck finding a computer to run it...


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## The Little Raven (Dec 30, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> #10 is gloriously plotted.




For the longest time, #8 and #6 warred to be my favorite, then #10 came along and kicked their asses. The amount of emotional resonance put into scenes, especially the one at the end when Yuna attempts to hug Tidus and fails... I got misty-eyed.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 31, 2008)

> For the longest time, #8 and #6 warred to be my favorite, then #10 came along and kicked their asses. The amount of emotional resonance put into scenes, especially the one at the end [spoilerishness zapped]. I got misty-eyed.




Me too. I was actually playing it with my girlfriend at the time in the room, and she was bawling and wailing on me, telling me to fix it. She never played FFVII, but honestly that hug and that infamous stab....best...moments...in...FF...ever...


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 31, 2008)

Nightchilde-2 said:
			
		

> Yeah.  I'm old school.    I started video gaming when the Atari 2600 was brand spankin' new.




You know you're old when you've actually played E.T. and understand truly how awful it is.    Yet, between that and Pong, I still went over to my friend's house every day to play.  



Darkwolf71 said:


> Alright, y'all are just being mean now.
> I'm gonna have to take my theory and go home.
> III is the only game of the 'main' series I haven't played. I was _very_ upset when they released it on the Nintendo DS instead of the PSP.




Firstly, though I've only played a little of FF3 (3j... I find it easier to just use the Japanese numbering, since it's only off for two games), my brother absolutely loved the DS port for it.  He said it does the game a lot of justice over the original.

Second, your theory does have some merit (though as I posted before, I don't fall in that category either).  Many people maintain a special set of rose-colored glasses for games they played when they first started gaming.  Really, I think it's the same for a lot of things, not just video games.  Also, I doubt we're a representative sample of gamers... you'd probably be better off checking out polls at GameFAQs.



frankthedm said:


> Could not stand FFTactics. Games that _punish you for your experience_ kill my interest really really fast. Especially when it is the random encounters that are what are auto-scaled to you. I can see the merits of scaling boss battles, since last i checked, those are the ones that SHOULD matter. On the other hand, if the schlubs are piggy backing my XP total, I'm turning the game off. It would not be so bad if the enemies increased in _numbers _as my characters got better, but if that goblin gained 10 levels just because I gained 10 levels, that is a dealbreaker IMHO.
> 
> I also hear you get super characters in the last chapter that make any effort put into leveling allies pretty much pointless.




The gameplay was an issue for FFT... but the story definitely made up for it.

The biggest problem (IMO) with FFT, and in fact most tile-based strategy games on the consoles, is that they reward experience for actions in combat.  I suspect that early on, they realized how easily the system can be gamed, and instead of changing the system, took the easy route and made enemies scale in level.  There are other issues expected of a initial foray into a new genre (bland combat design, balance issues in NPCs, uneven utility of classes), but they're all secondary to the main one.


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## Vaslov (Dec 31, 2008)

Not really CRPGs, but close enough for this....

I would suggest The Longest Journey.  Excellent story and the characters actually developed based on the questions and answers you select.  Great game.  The follow up Dreamfall was so-so, but worth it if you like the TLJ and want to see the story continue.  

I also strongly recommend Blade Runner by Westwood Studios.  Talk about a world that reacts to your actions.  I played through that over and over just to see the various options play out.  If you are really lucky you can find the semi-happy ending.  This is from Westwood's golden era.

Both of the games above are quite dated at this point.  I think the youngest would of been from the late 90's.  If you are willing to go further back into game history...

Day of the Tentacle
Full Throttle (I still own this one just to watch the bar/nose ring scene)
Wasteland (Come on Fallout fans!  Where is the love? Ok, so the story wasn't really that great....  But the combat description cannot be beat!)


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## ProfessorCirno (Dec 31, 2008)

It's not much gameplay wise, and it really has almost no story, but Yume Nikki is, bar none, the most atmospheric game I have ever played in my life.


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## Wayside (Jan 1, 2009)

Merlin's Shadow said:


> Better make it a third person then.  FFI was my first FF game, but FFVI is my favorite followed by FFVII and FFIV.



And a fourth. I still have my FFI cartridge, though it's been collecting dust since the rise of emulators.


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## Center-of-All (Jan 1, 2009)

Lets make it 5. I started with VII, but find IX, X, and Tactics to be far superior.


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## Darkwolf71 (Jan 1, 2009)

Ok, moving on. Really.

You guys are just depressing the hell out of me at this point.


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## Campbell (Jan 1, 2009)

I'm reallly digging Rise of the Argonauts. It has a real mythic feel to it.


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## Sunderstone (Jan 1, 2009)

Console-
FFVII - My personal fave of the FF series.
Xenogears - If you can still find this gem.
FFVI (also FFIII on he SNES).

PC-
Planescape: Torment
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Mass Effect


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## Leatherhead (Jan 2, 2009)

Darkwolf71 said:


> Alright, stop jacking with my theory. It's a good one. >.<
> 
> Honestly you two are the first to ever dispute it, but I think you are also the first to say that you started with FFI.
> 
> anyway all this talk about FFX has me itching to break that one out again... Hmm.




If it helps to refine your theory: the first FF game I ever played was Mystic Quest.


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## Leatherhead (Jan 2, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Could not stand FFTactics. Games that _punish you for your experience_ kill my interest really really fast. Especially when it is the random encounters that are what are auto-scaled to you. I can see the merits of scaling boss battles, since last i checked, those are the ones that SHOULD matter. On the other hand, if the schlubs are piggy backing my XP total, I'm turning the game off. It would not be so bad if the enemies increased in _numbers _as my characters got better, but if that goblin gained 10 levels just because I gained 10 levels, that is a dealbreaker IMHO.
> 
> I also hear you get super characters in the last chapter that make any effort put into leveling allies pretty much pointless.




Actually that is one of the things I liked about it: Grinding is not an option.


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## Obryn (Jan 2, 2009)

Hmm...  My favorite CRPG storylines, in no particular order...

(1) Final Fantasy III.  It kinda pulled me in, what can I say.  I liked it much more than FF1, which quickly got boring.

(2) Star Control II.  Amazing, fun, and deep plotline.  There's a sense of mystery and probably the best humor in any computer game I've seen.  Each of the alien races is ... well, damned excellent.  I also loved the game itself...  I could destroy whole squadrons with Fwiffo (or any other Spathi).  To heck with the rest of those races!  Who needs 'em?  And IMHO it _is_ a CRPG; the dialogue trees and ship customization just make it a CRPG where your _ship_ is your character.

(3) KotOR 1.  It's too bad that the gameplay improvements of KotOR 2 spoiled me on ever playing KotOR 1 again...  (Much like how Oblivion spoiled Morrowind for me.)  1 has the better storyline, by far, but 2 has desperately-needed gameplay improvements.  Like, not needing to stay at level 3 or 4 for most of the game, so you can get a few real Jedi levels.   HK-47 is my favorite CRPG NPC of all time.


Now, my _favorite_ CRPG of all time is Oblivion, but it's not so much for the main storyline.  Like most Bethesda games, I think the plot is a convenient excuse for a gorgeous, sandboxy game-world.  I liked Morrowind, too, but frankly Morrowind gets _irritating_...  I got sick of the slow pace at which my character moved.  It didn't keep me from beating the game, but I got an infinite-Endurance-regeneration item as quickly as I could make it.

I look forward to digging into Fallout 3.  At the moment, though, my brain has been consumed by King's Bounty: The Legend.

-O


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## diaglo (Jan 2, 2009)

JRRNeiklot said:


> Zork.




quoted for tr00f


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## TwinBahamut (Jan 3, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Could not stand FFTactics. Games that _punish you for your experience_ kill my interest really really fast. Especially when it is the random encounters that are what are auto-scaled to you. I can see the merits of scaling boss battles, since last i checked, those are the ones that SHOULD matter. On the other hand, if the schlubs are piggy backing my XP total, I'm turning the game off. It would not be so bad if the enemies increased in _numbers _as my characters got better, but if that goblin gained 10 levels just because I gained 10 levels, that is a dealbreaker IMHO.
> 
> I also hear you get super characters in the last chapter that make any effort put into leveling allies pretty much pointless.



I don't mind that one at all, myself. Really, the game never punishes you for becoming stronger, it just  keeps experience levels even with yours. All told, strength in FFT has nothing to do with experience and everything to do with job level and the ability choices you have made. That is why, other than the game's hard battles, the game tends to be a lot easier later in the game than earlier. Grinding on weak enemies to gain enough JP to try new strategies on various characters is certainly a viable and rewarding tactic. Unless you are psychic or have read a FAQ, you will probably need to do this at one point or another in the game (the penultimate battles of Chapters 2 and 3 come to mind). Those are entirely the domain of your first few characters.

Also, there are certainly a number of truly powerful characters who join late in the game, but they join far too late to ever acquire the _insane_ ability combos that _really_ break the game (Mime and Calculator, anyone?). Even giving poor Agrias anything more than her own Holy Knight skills can be a pain.


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## Shadeydm (Jan 3, 2009)

TwinBahamut said:


> I don't mind that one at all, myself. Really, the game never punishes you for becoming stronger, it just  keeps experience levels even with yours. All told, strength in FFT has nothing to do with experience and everything to do with job level and the ability choices you have made. That is why, other than the game's hard battles, the game tends to be a lot easier later in the game than earlier. Grinding on weak enemies to gain enough JP to try new strategies on various characters is certainly a viable and rewarding tactic. Unless you are psychic or have read a FAQ, you will probably need to do this at one point or another in the game (the penultimate battles of Chapters 2 and 3 come to mind). Those are entirely the domain of your first few characters.
> 
> Also, there are certainly a number of truly powerful characters who join late in the game, but they join far too late to ever acquire the _insane_ ability combos that _really_ break the game (Mime and Calculator, anyone?). Even giving poor Agrias anything more than her own Holy Knight skills can be a pain.




Despite it being my all time favorite PS1 game, even I have to admit that TG Cid makes the game too easy.

OTOH I did enjoy getting cloud to join the party and building him up into an effective member of the team.


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## Darkwolf71 (Jan 3, 2009)

Leatherhead said:


> If it helps to refine your theory: the first FF game I ever played was Mystic Quest.




I've only ever applied it to the 'main' series. I mean, I doubt if _anyone_ would claim any of the Gameboy versions as their favorite. 

Anyway, I still think it's a sound theory. Like anything else there are bound to be exceptions, but I have found far more folks who agree with me than not over the years.


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## Sytonis (Jan 3, 2009)

Favourite story in CRPGs:-

Planescape Torment
Deus Ex 1

Honourable Mentions:-

Dark Sun Wake of the Ravager
The history of World of Warcraft (up to and including Burning Crusade)
Fallout 1 or 2


My favourite story in game has to go to either Realms of the Haunting or Tex Murphy Under a Killing Moon, neither of which are CRPG's but Adventure Games. I'd rate these above Torment and Deus Ex for story too!

I'd also highly rate the story in Half Life 1 & 2 and they are further removed from CRPGS than Adventure Games.


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## small pumpkin man (Jan 3, 2009)

Best Stories?

Planscape:Torment
KotOR
Mass Effect

That order.

Special mentions for Star Control and whichever FF you feel like picking up. (9 was my first btw, and it holds a special place in my heart, but it's just not the same when you know Zidane isn't actually a chick)

The Fallout games can be very atmospheric, and the first couple were, AFAICT quite ground breaking with the whole "openended" dealio, but they're very buggy and I haven't met what a three dimensional character in them yet. (Of course I haven't actually finished any of them yet, so I could still be surprised). Doesn't help that I'm not particularly impressed with that kind of sandbox play in the first place, I generally find that by often only having the extreme options which often break down to 1, rip everyone for as much money as possible, 2, kill absolutely everybody you see, or 3, don't act like a complete dick it means you rarely have to make actual _decisions_.

But that's mostly hype backlash, they're actually pretty fun games, I just get annoyed by people talking about how "it's so OPEN, you can be whoever you want" and my response is usually "You know, I've never actually felt restricted by the fact I can't kill children/moogles/townspeople in FF/<insert Bioware game>".


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## small pumpkin man (Jan 3, 2009)

resistor said:


> I'd say it was pretty mixed, overall.  If you choose the negative outcome for Megaton (
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually, there are supposedly random encounters of 



Spoiler



megaton survivors


 which attack you if you choose the "bad option" but random encounters are unfortunately so rare that most people seem to play the game through without getting any of the interesting ones. But yes, the unconnectedness got to me too.

On the other hand, my standards for such things could be getting to high after Mass Effect.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 3, 2009)

TwinBahamut said:


> I don't mind that one at all, myself. Really, the game never punishes you for becoming stronger, it just  keeps experience levels even with yours. All told, strength in FFT has nothing to do with experience and everything to do with job level and the ability choices you have made. That is why, other than the game's hard battles, the game tends to be a lot easier later in the game than earlier. Grinding on weak enemies to gain enough JP to try new strategies on various characters is certainly a viable and rewarding tactic. Unless you are psychic or have read a FAQ, you will probably need to do this at one point or another in the game (the penultimate battles of Chapters 2 and 3 come to mind). Those are entirely the domain of your first few characters.
> 
> Also, there are certainly a number of truly powerful characters who join late in the game, but they join far too late to ever acquire the _insane_ ability combos that _really_ break the game (Mime and Calculator, anyone?). Even giving poor Agrias anything more than her own Holy Knight skills can be a pain.




Well said.  I loved playing FFT and spent tons of time grinding.  Not for levels, but for JP.  And you do get ~5 people in a battle, so Cid alone doesn't make the other characters worthless.  (I think Beowulf turning everything undead and then having calculators laying down Cure 3 over the whole battlefield; or having Mustadio leave enemies paralyzed in place while you shot them up from afar was just as effective as the Holy Knight powers).  End game, my party was usually main character, 3 generics I picked up along the way and mastered all classes for, and Cid.  Worker 8 getting the sixth man slot.  I assure you, my other characters were just as broken as Orlandu by the time he was available.


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