# [FFG] Legendary Class Design Contest!



## d20Dwarf (Jun 25, 2002)

[Edit- sorry about this, Wil, but I plan to link to this thread from the main page and thought it best to insert all of the details to the first post here]

Fantasy Flight Games  are holding a Legendary Class Contest. The contest will be hosted here at EN World. Your task is to create a Legendary Class - ten winners will receive a copy of Path of the Sword. All entries will remain archived here at EN World. 


Here is a PDF document explaining Legendary Classes .
The closing date is 15 July, 2002. 
The contest will be judged by FFG staff.
All entries should be sent to  morrus@d20reviews.com. The subject of your email should read "FFG Contest" (without the quote marks). Please make sure you type that exactly, as my email program will sort the entries automatically into a separate folder - anything not in that folder does not get entered.
Your entry should be an RTF file. No exceptions.
This contest is only for designing legendary classes applicable to Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, and Rangers.

[Original post from Wil

As mentioned on the front page, we are holding a contest in which you design a legendary class. I thought I would start this thread to field any questions you may have, and to post a clarification.


----------



## XCorvis (Jun 25, 2002)

Better ask Morrus to post that on the front page ASAP before people really get into their legendary wizards...


----------



## fba827 (Jun 25, 2002)

XCorvis said:
			
		

> *Better ask Morrus to post that on the front page ASAP before people really get into their legendary wizards... *




Better yet, let's see if we can get Morrus to link this thread to the front page with the rest of the information


----------



## reddist (Jun 26, 2002)

*dammit*

I already wrote one for rogues.  I missed that "fighters, monks, barbarians and rangers" bit when I read the first notice up front.

So why not the other classes, unless FFG already has good ones they want to use, and are looking to fill some holes in an upcoming book?

I had a fun one in mind for mages, too. 

Poop.

-Reddist


----------



## reddist (Jun 26, 2002)

*duh...*

Alright, I get it.  Mages and rogues might come later

I'll just save these until THOSE contests roll around....


-Reddist


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jun 26, 2002)

S-s-s-someone...f-f-figured out the answer to their o-o-wn ques-s-s-stion....

*walks away shaken*


----------



## Khur (Jun 26, 2002)

*Who owns the class?*

The most important thing about any contest is the rights issue. People run these contests and rarely explain who owns the work submitted -- like d20 Magazine Rack's Depths of Despair contest. 

Do submitters retain their rights to their work? If not, then nobody should submit anything for just a copy of a $25 book. Will Fantasy Flight be using the winning classes in any format for publication?

What about including art with the entry? Will that affect the scoring in any way?

Thanks.


----------



## kingpaul (Jun 28, 2002)

*OGC?*

1) I echo the question on who owns the IP of the submitted classes
2) Will the Legendary Class idea be OGC?


----------



## Yuan-Ti (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: OGC?*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *1) I echo the question on who owns the IP of the submitted classes
> *




It does say that ALL entries will be archived at ENWorld... but I have no idea what that means in terms of IP and copyrights. Since there is no contract we had to agree to, however, feel free to sue FFG if they publish your LC without okaying it with you first, or if they try to claim that by giving you a book they "paid" you for it. 

Morrus? Are we going to get confirmations that our entries arrived? Forgive my pestering, but I have never entered one of these contests before, so I don't know what your SOP is. And your comments to the effect that entries that failed to be RTF, or that misspelled FFG in the email subject heading would be tossed have made me a bit nervous. 

Thanks.


----------



## reddist (Jun 28, 2002)

*IP vs open doors*

Oy-

At $.05 a word (granted, thats the high end of the scale), two pages of text w/ approximately 700 words per page comes to roughly $70, give or take some with word count or page length.  A submission of this nature probably should not take more than three type written pages.

So, ~$70 you MIGHT get paid if you sold such a piece as a freelancer, versus the ~$25 cost of a free book with your work in it, should you win.

You also might want to consider the good it will do for your freelancing career to win such a contest, having your name in the book, and gaining some recognition on these forums.

For someone starting out, with no real credentials, such a win might do their writing career some good.  Get their name out there, let people see they can write something original, and attract the attention of publishing companies looking for fresh blood.


If you're already published and comfortable with the work you're doing, then yes this might be a waste of your time.  If you're looking to start making a name for yourself as a d20 freelancer, or just to get your name in a book with a spiffy PrC you've created, then what the hell.  You could do worse.

Personally, I wouldn't be concerned about the IP rights on 3 pages of material that I hammered out in a night or two.  If trading it in gets me some recognition and opens a few doors to future work, I'm all for it.

-Reddist


----------



## Yuan-Ti (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: IP vs open doors*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *Oy-
> You also might want to consider the good it will do for your freelancing career to win such a contest, having your name in the book, and gaining some recognition on these forums.
> *




Sadly, there is no publication attached to this contest.


----------



## Brian W (Jun 29, 2002)

*Legendary Rights*

FFG will not own the rights to your Legendary Class.

We think that Legendary Classes are really cool (probably my second favorite part of Path of the Sword) and we just want to encourage people to start thinking about what you could do with them and see what people come up with.

However, if you guys are interested in a future contest to have a Legendary Class published, that's something we could look into if there was a lot of interest.  Path of Magic is already complete, but we have Path of Faith and Path of Shadow yet to do!

Let me know what you'd like to see.


----------



## murlynd (Jun 30, 2002)

*Poop...*

I am just bummed because I cannot enter the contest, what with me being a freelancer for FFG.  That just would not be very cool.

Maybe I could use a fake name....hmm...<scratches chin>

Just kidding.

Oh well, at least we all still get to see what kind of legendary goodness is created. I love the open-call contests, they just really seem to instill a sense of coolness and community among gamers.

Good luck to all who enter.


----------



## Yuan-Ti (Jun 30, 2002)

*Re: Legendary Rights*

I think it is a fun concept, too. I saw the contest and thought it would be fun to enter, and a good exercise to try to create a LC. It turned out to be fun to write and really got me thinking about how such classes would work in my own campaign. Certainly, there is a great room for the occasional NPC to have the class, but I think a lot of players would find it fun--and the example you gave had some powerful abilities, but in the right campaign they would not be overpowering. I especially like the idea that they have to complete the 5 levels before multiclassing in something else. 

I would definitely like to see a contest for publication... But we don't want to take jobs away from any freelancers. Maybe a contest for the upcoming books and the winner gets his LC in, rather than top three or something. 





			
				Brian W said:
			
		

> *FFG will not own the rights to your Legendary Class.
> 
> We think that Legendary Classes are really cool (probably my second favorite part of Path of the Sword) and we just want to encourage people to start thinking about what you could do with them and see what people come up with.
> 
> ...


----------



## Yuan-Ti (Jul 4, 2002)

I am going to bump this. 

Did anyone else already send in their LC idea? Did Morrus reply to your email? 

Morrus, if you are listening, can you let us know if you acknowledge the receipt of entries?


----------



## Morrus (Jul 4, 2002)

Yuan-Ti said:
			
		

> *
> Morrus, if you are listening, can you let us know if you acknowledge the receipt of entries? *




That's what the subject-title rule is for - so that Outlook automatically filters them for me and so that I don't have to deal with each one indiviidually. 

I'll work through them and post a list a couple of days before the contest closes, though, just in case any got missed.


----------



## Yuan-Ti (Jul 4, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's what the subject-title rule is for - so that Outlook automatically filters them for me and so that I don't have to deal with each one indiviidually.
> 
> I'll work through them and post a list a couple of days before the contest closes, though, just in case any got missed. *




That's what I wanted to hear. Thanks, Mr. Morrus!


----------



## MythicJustice (Jul 15, 2002)

*When will the results be announced?*

Just curious as to when the contest results will be announced.

-Chad Justice


----------



## Morrus (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: When will the results be announced?*



			
				MythicJustice said:
			
		

> *Just curious as to when the contest results will be announced.
> 
> -Chad Justice *




Well, today's the deadline.  I'll pass them along to FFG tomorrow, and let you know as soon as they let me know. Partly depends on how many more arrive today, I guess.

For those who were asking, here's the list of entries received so far.  I'm listing the names indicated in the email headers here (i.e. I'm not actually opening up the entries to check names - I'm just opening the folder and reading down the list; if people's names appear multiple times it's because they either sent multiple entries or the same entry multiple times):

If your name's not there, you'd best send again because I haven't received it.  Either that, or you didn't use the correct subject line and Outlook didn't sort it into the folder.

Wade Nudson
Chad Justice
Thaak13 
jensen-e 
Malcolm Davies
Paul King
Alain et Martine
Wade Nudson
Fabio Bertone
Cluade.gueant
Jensen-e 
Andrew Anderson
Greywanderer1014
Moore, Scott
jensesn-e
Malcom Davies
Malcolm Davies
Kevin M Curow
Jamie McGraw
Spiff
SnowSyracuse
Kebin M Curow
kense-e


----------



## reddist (Jul 15, 2002)

Rock on, thanks Morrus.

I don't know too much about Outlook, or other emailers for that matter, but is there a way to have it send automatic replies to certain subject headings?  So we'd get an immediate email response, just saying the item was received?

Just wondering...

Thanks,

-Reddist


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 15, 2002)

I'm really looking forward to getting ahold of these, legendary classes are cool!


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: When will the results be announced?*

Wow, quite a bit of competition.  Morrus.  I just sent  you a file (its still 7/15 for me) that includes a new class and a correction to a class I sent you yesterday (forgot to include skill points per level...silly me).


----------



## reddist (Jul 16, 2002)

*unofficial poll?*

Oy!

Hey, I know the guys at FFG are doing the official judging, picking their favorite 10 so they can dole out the crunchy book goodness, but how about an unoffical poll here, so these Legendary Classes can get wider exposure on the EN boards?

Since FFG is picking 10, I'll bet that the EN readership's top 5 or so will overlap.  No prizes or anything, just recognition

Thoughts?

-Reddist


----------



## RedCliff (Jul 16, 2002)

I think that's an excellent idea.  Even if the judging is not official, if it leads to discussions like those found in the Atlas Games name that critter thread, it would certainly be worthwhile. I found much of the commentary insightful, and feedback is something all authors could use.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 17, 2002)

RedCliff said:
			
		

> *I think that's an excellent idea.  Even if the judging is not official, if it leads to discussions like those found in the Atlas Games name that critter thread, it would certainly be worthwhile. I found much of the commentary insightful, and feedback is something all authors could use. *



I agree completely.  I enjoy creating classes, but definately need work on putting out polished material.  And it'd be fun to read what others submitted for this contest.


----------



## Brian W (Jul 17, 2002)

*Legendary Class Design*

This sounds like a great idea to me!  I'd love to see some discussion on the merits of different submissions (might even make our judging job easier).


----------



## Khur (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: unofficial poll?*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *Hey, I know the guys at FFG are doing the official judging, picking their favorite 10 so they can dole out the crunchy book goodness, but how about an unoffical poll here, so these Legendary Classes can get wider exposure on the EN boards?
> *




Hey, I agree too, lets all take a look at what we each submitted.


----------



## MythicJustice (Jul 17, 2002)

Ok, so do we need to start a thread in General RPG Discussion? And, can someone create links to the submissions as was done for the Atlas Name the Creature Contest?

-Chad


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Legendary Class Design*



			
				Brian W said:
			
		

> *This sounds like a great idea to me!  I'd love to see some discussion on the merits of different submissions (might even make our judging job easier). *



As long as you pick one of mine.   
j/k


----------



## Psion (Jul 18, 2002)

Okay... sounds neat... have the submissions been made public yet?


----------



## Shadeus (Jul 18, 2002)

Sounds good to me.  I think the intent was to have then available for everyone to read.  Of course, re-reading some of the abilities I gave these legendary classes, I might have gone a bit overboard.  But constructive feedback is a good thing.

Is Morrus planning to put these on a web page?


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 19, 2002)

Shadeus said:
			
		

> *Is Morrus planning to put these on a web page? *



I'm not sure if he is or not.  Should the author's post their own creations for public perusal?  I submitted 2, I know Morrus got 1, but my last went in on the due date, and because of the time-zone difference, I'm not sure if it was accepted or not.


----------



## Psion (Jul 19, 2002)

I think the cotest page would be the appropriate place...


----------



## MythicJustice (Jul 19, 2002)

*Contest Page?*



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *I think the cotest page would be the appropriate place... *




I've looked around but I couldn't find a Contest Page. Where is it?

-Chad


----------



## reddist (Jul 19, 2002)

*contest page*

If I understand the way things work here, there isn't a contest page until Morrus makes us one.

There is a link on the EN home page, but that just gets you to this thread.

I think the "contest page" Psion was referring to is a poll set up much like the one for Atlas' Name That Critter contest.... where readers can look at all the entrants and vote for their favorite, and leave behind some (hopefully!) constructive feedback for the authors.

At least I hope that's what he meant

I think simply posting them here one at a time would be a nasty spammy waste of space, and it would be difficult to read and critique each entrant.

Perhaps FFG could post some links to the rtf docs on THEIR website, so we could read all of them... and even insert the links into a message here.  We could go look at them, and then discuss them on this thread.

I'm a biologist geek, not a computer geek, and have absolutely no idea how labor-intensive this sort of thing is.

-Reddist


----------



## Psion (Jul 19, 2002)

Actually, there used to be a link that had all of the old contests like the adventure contest results. Hmmm... hafta look.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 19, 2002)

http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/BeareroftheWorldsPain.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/BladeofGod.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/Brawler.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/BrokenWake.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/d-archer.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/ElfLord.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/EssentialEssence.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/FencingMaster.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/fmaster.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/gmclouds.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/GreenWarden.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/Hero.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/KingsWarden.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/LegendaryArcher.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/LordLand.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/MonkNeverEndingBattle.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/Neclord.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/Nimrod.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/rangedhuntsman.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/ReturningAvatar.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/SpiritoftheBeast.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/Storm.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/Messiah.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/One.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/Prophet.rtf
http://www.d20reviews.com/Contest/LegClassFFG/TrueKing.rtf


----------



## Morrus (Jul 19, 2002)

Wil just sent me the list of winners.  I know who they are.  Ner ner ner ner ner!


----------



## reddist (Jul 19, 2002)

*Woohoo!*

Yoinks, that was fast  When do we get to find out?  Will Wil (or other FFG rep) be able to post some of the internal feedback ya think?  That'd be keen, too.

Thanks oodles for the links!

-Reddist


----------



## MythicJustice (Jul 19, 2002)

Ack! I don't see my entry here. Morrus, I checked and my entry was a .rtf and you listed it as having been received. Was it just an oversight? The entry was The True King.

-Chad


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 19, 2002)

I think it would be cool to get a discussion going about these for a bit before we post the winners, what do you think Morrus?

Once the winners are posted, I"ll be happy to go over some of the design principles and such, as there are some issues I'd like to address in nearly all of them.

I hope you guys had fun creating these, they were a blast to read!


----------



## Morrus (Jul 20, 2002)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *I think it would be cool to get a discussion going about these for a bit before we post the winners, what do you think Morrus? *




Up to you, Will - it's your contest.  I'll announce the winners when you give the word.


----------



## MythicJustice (Jul 20, 2002)

Thanks Morrus. I was worried there for a bit that my submission, the True King, somehow got lost in the ether.

- Chad


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 20, 2002)

Let the discussion begin. If we can get something going, I'll delay announcing the winners. If you guys want me to announce them then discuss, we can do it that way too.

Have at it!

      Wil


----------



## MythicJustice (Jul 20, 2002)

Reading them now! I'll try to post some thoughts later this evening.

-Chad


----------



## reddist (Jul 20, 2002)

Yeah, gimme a day or so... got some other contract stuff I'm working on tonight 

A quick read through some random clicks is pretty impressive though.  I like the tight focus a lot of these take, and some of the quests and special abilities are very inventive.  

Just based on my random perusal, I think the more defined, focused classes are going to be the interesting ones.

-Reddist


----------



## Khur (Jul 20, 2002)

*Half the batch critiqued ... phew!*

First off, seriously reading submissions is hard work. I don't envy those guys a WotC sifting thropught the campaign submissions.

I’m glad we have a chance to see everyone’s great work. Doing my duty to my fellow competitors, here’s my take on the first half of the entries. All of my advice is kinda off-the-cuff, so take it as you wish. I liked everyone’s stuff and I tried to be constructive with any criticism.

Here goes:

*Bearer of the World’s Pain*  – I like it when a life path has solid philosophy, but why isn’t there an alignment restriction on this class (Lawful Good)? Could this class be one dedicated to a god of martyrs of suffering (like Ilmater in FR)? I think that the quest needs to be harder and that there should be another. The powers are interesting, but some are a bit restrictive and others seem too powerful. Consider No More Shall Suffer as the ability to use finger of death on evil beings once per being with a Save DC of 10 plus the spell level (7) plus the Cha modifier of the Bearer plus the power level. If the being so targeted makes the saving throw, the Bearer cannot target that being with the effect ever again. I must say that The Last Gift power rocks! It conjures images of real-world saints, especially Buddha!

*Blade of God* – I like the idea, but the requirements seem a bit steep at first glance and I disfavor the Str requirement. The player would have to be very careful and know very early that the legendary class was the goal sought. I do like the secondary implication of the character being a lawful good fighter until level 4 (Weapon Specialization) and then being inducted into a holy order (Paladin for Knowledge (religion) and turn undead probably, as a cleric would have to be 11th level (and Ftr 4) to meet the BAB requirement). The second quest is a bit hokey and doesn’t allow for campaign worlds in which deities have no avatar—most published avatars would kill a high-level character in a few rounds. The powers are very good, excepting Awareness of God which could just be Blindsight 10’ per power level, plus detect good or evil (as appropriate) at will. 

The *Brawler* is hilarious! I hope it was meant to be funny – a “legendary” bar-fighter. *har, har *  The only beefs I have with this guy is that his Thick Blood doesn’t seem so thick. A maximum +5 to Fort saves versus mundane poison isn’t so much. Shrug Off Blows is way too powerful – maybe multiply the subdual damage healed per hour by the power level +1.Additionally the character gets  +1 to saves to resist stunning per power level and gets a Fortitude save to resist being Clobbered. For example, Gurlag (Ftr10/Brawler 4) gains Shrug Off Blows at 4th-level Brawler. Instead of 14 points of subdual damage per hour, he heals 70! Alternately, allow the character to ignore a number of points of subdual damage per round equal to his power level x his con mod.

The *Warrior of the Broken Wake* should be called the _ Devastator_!  I like this class because it’s fun, especially for those who revel in the sheer damage their character can cause (munchkins). I don’t like the fact that the class is aimed at axe wielders when many other weapons are suited to breaking. The powers, for the most part seem well balanced. Would Spell Cutting apply against rays? Maybe Sever Life should apply a bonus per power level to the DC of the Fortitude saving throw requires by the Death from Massive Damage variant. (The variant itself is not well thought-out IMO.)

The *Deadeye Archer* is nice. I like all of the abilities, but some of them don’t seem to have power levels related to their usage (Distant Strike). Also, Barrage seems too powerful. Perhaps the archer should be limited to one or two such attacks per power level? I like that the archer can create magical arrows and bows, but perhaps the ability should be more clearly defined in terms of magical ability and its relation to legendary power level. I see it as the master breathing life into created items ... cool!

The *Elf Lord* is a good class with a mundane name … though I can’t think of a better one off hand. Reveal His Glory is a great ability, but clearly spell-like or supernatural, not extraordinary. A few of the other abilities seem to fall into this category (i.e. should be subject to antimagic). The Immortality level 5 ability suggests that the Elf Lord no longer suffers aging penalties. Other immortal elf lords do? That’s kinda lame—a deal breaker if you ask me. “Yes Lanthala, you will be immortal, but after 350 years, you’ll be bent and decrepit … good luck!” I also think their power against death magic should be greater. Like maybe +2 versus death effects per power level and the death ward ability cast as a druid of the characters total character level or a 9th-level druid + one caster level per power level.

The *Maitre d’Escrime* is good for swashbuckling campaigns and one of my favorites presented here. I didn’t get the last paragraph in the quests section though. The great thing about this class is it shows the author has some fencing knowledge. I didn’t see the Weapon and Armor proficiency section in this class, but would assume that such a character must have to use light armor. I also think the duration for Extraordinary Expertise should be bumped up a bit and the language of the text should inform the reader that the Maitre need not use these rounds in succession. I also think that Dedicated Students and Razor-edged Reactions should be more powerful. Perhaps Razor-edged reactions should give a character a bonus much like Evasion or Uncanny Dodge. Dedicated students should, perhaps, be related to the Leadership feat. Are the students replaced if one is slain or otherwise removed from play?

The *Dwarven Forgemaster* is another favorite of mine … but I like dwarves … especially in leather, but that’s another story … ahem. I think the quests are a bit too easy. What about the items being made of material mined from an enemy stronghold? I like almost all of this classes abilities, they’re just good ideas. Some of the abilities, while still great ideas, have no relation to power level (Unforge, Mystic Forge Hammer, Tireless Champion). The Dwarven Hero ability is related to power level, but only marginally—maybe all of the bonuses could be related somehow. Elemental companions can’t be replaced so this power probably won’t be taken by anyone … perhaps replaced after a year and a day like familiars would suit best.

I enjoyed the *Grandmaster of the Clouds*—another favorite. I wondered why the requirements list as special abilities that have names in the monk class (Leap of the Clouds = leap unrestricted by height and unarmored speed = double the move of a normal creature…)? The quests were truly cool and the multiclassing note was a great call. The grandmaster’s powers a great too. Walk on the clouds should be cast as a cleric of some level, not such a limited duration (especially if ones wants to simulate Crouching Marmot, Hidden Billy Goat). Again, some of the abilities were not related to power level (Move with Grace, Move Without Boundaries, and etc.). I think Blink of an Eye should just go ahead and be once per day per power level, using dimension door as the base spell.

*True King* – good idea! This class has a lot of campaign value, but the qualifications are a bit too easy. The quests are what make it shine, classic but maybe a bit cliché—too many fantasy stories hinge on the idea of a fabled king. The powers seem good, but some are too ill defined, while others have not relation to the level at which they are chosen (Mighty Blow). Passionate Rhetoric is good in theory bur the duration is questionable. What does “battle” mean in this context? Heirloom is impressive, but from where do these items come? I also don’t totally understand Natural Leader (mostly the “bumped” off part and how it jives with the example you gave).

Well, that’s all for tonight. I’ll give the rest a read on the morrow. I hope you all enjoy reading these. Maybe we could do a little netbook here on EN World after the contest. You know, edit these and put ‘em together with typeset pages and illustrations. Maybe the pros could give us some help … and I’d do the design and some of the drawings if everyone were game. I'll let everyone see my website after the contest 'cause I don't want anyone to know which entry is mine yet.

Just an idea.

Cheers!


----------



## Shadeus (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: Half the batch critiqued ... phew!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> The *Deadeye Archer* is nice. I like all of the abilities, but some of them don’t seem to have power levels related to their usage (Distant Strike). Also, Barrage seems too powerful. Perhaps the archer should be limited to one or two such attacks per power level? I like that the archer can create magical arrows and bows, but perhaps the ability should be more clearly defined in terms of magical ability and its relation to legendary power level. I see it as the master breathing life into created items ... cool!




This was one of mine.  If you look at the last sentence to barrage of arrows, it is limited to once per power level.



> The *Dwarven Forgemaster* is another favorite of mine … but I like dwarves … especially in leather, but that’s another story … ahem. I think the quests are a bit too easy. What about the items being made of material mined from an enemy stronghold? I like almost all of this classes abilities, they’re just good ideas. Some of the abilities, while still great ideas, have no relation to power level (Unforge, Mystic Forge Hammer, Tireless Champion). The Dwarven Hero ability is related to power level, but only marginally—maybe all of the bonuses could be related somehow. Elemental companions can’t be replaced so this power probably won’t be taken by anyone … perhaps replaced after a year and a day like familiars would suit best.




Yeah, upon re-reading this legendary class, I would have added a quest to defeat an earth elemental.  The contest would vary.  Maybe a wrestling match with an elemental...that would be very cool.  I didn't see a requirement that the abilities be related to the power level.  I would need to rethink these abilities...



> I enjoyed the *Grandmaster of the Clouds*—another favorite. I wondered why the requirements list as special abilities that have names in the monk class (Leap of the Clouds = leap unrestricted by height and unarmored speed = double the move of a normal creature…)? The quests were truly cool and the multiclassing note was a great call. The grandmaster’s powers a great too. Walk on the clouds should be cast as a cleric of some level, not such a limited duration (especially if ones wants to simulate Crouching Marmot, Hidden Billy Goat). Again, some of the abilities were not related to power level (Move with Grace, Move Without Boundaries, and etc.). I think Blink of an Eye should just go ahead and be once per day per power level, using dimension door as the base spell.




This legendary class was intended to be a "master of movement".  I didn't put the monk class names in there, because there are other way to beat that restriction besides being a monk, although going monk is by far the easiest.  I played with increasing the duration of air walk to the full 10 min per level, and I found it a bit unrealistic.  I wanted something like the said movie and not that they are running on air for 30 minutes straight.  Blink of an Eye could go just as you said, using dimension door as a base.  And I almost did go that way.   But the essense of the ability is they move so fast, its a free action.  Why did I limit it like I did?  I found it unbalancing to allow the monk to instantly appear next to a foe, attack them 5 times, and instantly appear 100' away.  Granted that uses all their "charges" for the day, but I thought it was overly powerful to allow once per power level.

     ************

Thanks for the review.  I did find it very helpful.

BTW, Morrus, you are just cruel.


----------



## Shadeus (Jul 20, 2002)

*Bearer of the Wolrd's Pain * - Overall I thought this class was fairly creative.  

The good things:

A lot of the abilities were very creative.  Rest in peace is a clever twist, especially for character's who cannot turn.  The cross is mine and the last gift were also very good and fitting to the god of mercy.  Finally the They pain returned is an excellent

Some of the downsides:

Requirements too low (you can become a legend at 8th-level).  Maybe make damage reduction a requirement.  The quests are too random.  Even someone with a +30 to every save could fail by random chance.  God's Mercy is a bit too generous.  Immune to subdual damage means they could run forever, or get into fist fights and never be damaged...it also means they cannot be subdued.  The World's Toughness feat is a little strong (with a max bonus of 50 hp).

* Blade of God * - In general, I wasn't clear exactly what they feel for this legendary class was.  I didn't understand why strength was a requirement, although it must be tied to the ability bonus to Strength.  I thought some of the abilities were a bit overboard.  Critical Attack and Dancing Attack are a bit too powerful, IMO.  I also noticed in the Aura of Gods ability, that they receive turning enhancement, although being able to turn isn't a requirement to be this legend.  Same with the extra smiting.  Sorry, this one didn't sit right with me.

* Brawler * - A clever class with some really appropriate abilities to bar-room brawling.  I saw several of the abilities (Calloused Knuckles, heavy fist, ground fighter, and two-fisted wallop) as very fitting.  I have to agree with Khur, that the Shrug off blows is a bit too powerful.  Maybe change it to restore 1 hp of subdual damage per power level per minute (instead of per round).  My only other objection to this class was that he could lose the ability to advance it should he lose a fight.  That, and I wasn't sure if a bar-room brawler could be the stuff of legends.  Maybe...I wouldn't so no.

*Warrior of the Broken Wake* - Seemed to focus on massive damage.  I like the carving through natural armor abilities.  I would have liked to have seem more abilities focusing around power attack...somewhat like the frenzied berserker's ability.  Feed the destruction has a very cool description, and I like the bonus to cleave.  I definitely think Sever Life is too powerful.  If taken at 5th-level, that means 25 points of damage would be enough for a save or die.  Combine that with Crushing Blow and that means just about every hit is save or die.  I agree with Khur, increase the save DC instead.  Maybe +2 DC per power level if you do 50 points of damage.  Cut the masses is very powerful.  I'm not certain if its overly so though, it would need to be playtested.  Oh, and the saves are funky...just something I wanted to note.


----------



## Khur (Jul 20, 2002)

*Note on the Deadeye...*

I'm glad my insight helped a bit. I hoped not to insult anyone with my criticisms. 



> If you look at the last sentence to barrage of arrows, it is limited to once per power level.




I noticed this, I just think being able to attack everyone in the area is a bit much. That's why I said like plus two (or maybe 3) attacks (additional) per power level at the highest attack rating. So a 15th level fighter type would have 3 regular attacks, and with the _barrage_ ability, at say 4th-level, he would get 8 more attacks per round at +15 (BAB) for a total of 9 plus two lower BAB attacks--11 attacks! That's a lot!

Maybe remove the limit that the _barrage_ must aim only one arrow at each target, then keep (or lower) the limit of uses per day. Perhaps lower it to once per day no matter what. That way the archer could shoot a really powerful target with the whole barrage. Perhaps all targets should have to be within 10 feet of each other as well. BTW using this ability should require a full attack action no matter what choice the player makes for the arrangement of shots.

Check out the *Master of the Order of the Bow* epic class in _ Dragon 297_ (for ranged opportunity attacks if nothing else). *The Grandmaster of the Clouds* is nicely related to the *Weightless Foot* ninja prestige class in _Dragon 289_ , but the *Weightless Foot* can use _air walk_ better than your legendary class. That's one reason I said something about the _air walk_ ability for the *The Grandmaster of the Clouds*.

BTW a way to limit _Blink of an Eye_ without restricting uses per day is make the blinking a move equivalent action. Or, make only one blink possible in a given round, despite it being a free action.

Just ideas ... I enjoyed your classes.


----------



## Shadeus (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: Note on the Deadeye...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I'm glad my insight helped a bit. I hoped not to insult anyone with my criticisms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, it should definitely be a full-round action.  The limiting factor was supposed to be the distance from the archer.  I guess if he's surrounded, that's a lot of arrows.  Actually I think the problem would be solved but putting a cap on the number of shots per round.  Ten arrows a round is probably more than enough.


----------



## Shadeus (Jul 20, 2002)

*Elf Lord * - An interesting class focusing on avoiding death for the most part.  Magical strike and Reveal His Glory don't fit very well in my opinion.  A defensive roll-type ability would have been a nice addition to this legendary class.  It seems very focuses otherwise.  Oh, it also has funky saves. 

*Tender of the Essential Essense* - The first quest is probably the most creative of the legendary quests I've read so far.  I like the idea of purging yourself of your negative essense and them battling it.  Unfortunately, that's about all I liked in this one.  The pre-reqs are really strange.  A ranger/cleric seems best suited to suited to meet the requirements.  The will save is strange.  It must not be BASE Will save, because a 20th-level straight cleric could get it...but that's about it.  If its not base Will save, then it probably too easy to get that +12 to their base save.  The remainder of the abilities I thought were good, but too powerful.  Cultivate Life: 72 extra hit points at level 5, regeneration of 1 per power level is very powerful, damage reduction 2 points per power level is a bit strong as well.

*The Maitre d'Escrime* - A very focused legendary class that is a supercharged duelist.  I loved it.  None of the abilities overlaped with that non-OCG PrC.  Some abilities of note are extraordinary expertise and ligntning riposte.  Both were very appropriate to the flavor of the class.  The quest may have been a little light.  Maybe something a little more rigorous in addition to beating three people in a duel.

*Green Warden* - Basically a diplomatic ranger...a very focused class again.  It abilities complimented this nicely with Charisma bonuses and bonuses to leadership and other ranger-based abilities.  The only complaint is that you can qualify for this legendary class at level 9.  Maybe a little low, but that can be easily remedied.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 21, 2002)

*Prerequisites*

Prereqs are sometimes difficult to come by; you should always remember that a character has to be at least 12th level to pick up an LgC level. Some ways to do this are:

BAB +12: an option used by most of the entries.

Skill ranks 15+: an option I didn't see in the entries, and a very good one to use.

Base Fort/Ref/Will save: +8; didn't see this one used either.

Spellcasting: must be able to cast 7th level spells. Puts the class at level 13, but still a good one to use.


----------



## Shadeus (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: Prerequisites*



			
				d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Prereqs are sometimes difficult to come by; you should always remember that a character has to be at least 12th level to pick up an LgC level. Some ways to do this are:
> 
> BAB +12: an option used by most of the entries.
> 
> ...




I actually used the Skill based level restriction on the Grandmaster of Clouds.  (Tumble and Move Silently both required 16 ranks.)  But I think that was an exception because of the group of classes the Path of the Sword focuses on.  A BAB-based requirement seemed appropriate.  No one cares about the legendary fighter...who losses every battle because he's got such a low BAB.


----------



## Khur (Jul 21, 2002)

*More critiques and fun...*

Did the LC design Contest Rules state anywhere the character has to be 12th –level to take a LC? I don’t remember it saying so, nor the downloadable literature saying so. The prereqs were the hardest part of designing the class, and I’m changing mine a bit if we do a netbook for EN World.

More critiques:

The *Green Warden* has a good (hard) quest (the first is a bit easy) and is tightly focused. It has definite value in the roleplay and roll-play department. The vow of silence is cool. I liked all of the abilities and each related to power level in some way. They were all kinda fun too. Dogged pursuit calls to mind Gimli in the Two Towers saying, _“I cannot run all the way to Isengard!”_—but he did, perhaps with Aragorn’s help. I think that the reqs for this class need to be abit sharper. At least the BAB should be +11 or so, that way, like Shadeus and d20 Dwarf said, the character has to be 12th-level. A Base Will Save might be in order for the Green Warden as well.

The *Hero* needs a better name (Fist of the Northstar, Warrior Prince)  and the quests need to be more defined. The class could take shape as something solid with a bit more work. I cannot figure out at what class this legendary class is aimed. Maybe this could be a good thing, but the abilities seem to come from all of the fighting classes save Ranger. Other abilities raise questions like, if your character fails to strike a foe he is using Flying Kick against in a round, and the foe therefore does not move backward, what happens to your character? Another is Heroic Toss should require a foe to be grappled. The Ricochet ability is one of the ones that has a lot of potential, but is a bit cumbersome and unclear as presented. Aren’t the legendary classes limited to 5 levels?

The *King’s Warden* has one of the nicest quests I’ve seen in so far as thematics and the requirements are very steep (this is good). The Fast Track ability is good (and points out a little used part of the rules). Stalker doesn’t give a big enough bonus, especially considering the bonuses some “official (i.e. published in Dragon) prestige classes get. I like Sixth Sense, Shared Animosity, and Nature’s Acuity very much. Maybe Hunter’s Eye should provide a bonus to Wilderness Lore and Tracking versus animals and for gathering food?

Merely winning archery contests does not make a *Legendary Archer*. That said, I like most of the abilities, though, like the class name, the ability names could be flashier … I like flash … like any good American consumer. I think multiplying the damage from criticals on Damaging Arrows is probably a bad idea. I also think that no ability should ever grant an automatic accomplishment, so True Strike is right out for me. Maybe the Legendary Archer could use the spell true strike once or twice per day per power level. 

The *Lord of the Land* seems like a good idea, but some ritual mystic tie to the land seems to be in order … like the pagan ceremony Arthur undergoes in The Mists of Avalon. Recognition of some applicable deity through some heroic act would be good. The quests seem not more than would be expected of any good noble. The binding of the land to the lord is very nice, but needs more strict definition. Shouldn’t Defender of the Land stack at each power level? Commander of the Land, Seer of the Land, Leader of the Land, Healer of the Land, and Traveler of the Land all need to be more closely tied to power level too, but they’re great ideas. I also think the noble should have a class skill list like the aristocrat or fighter.

The *Monk of Never Ending Battle* has a sad life, and one of questionable moral philosophy IMO. I question the “enlightenment” of individuals who battle over nuances in goodness. I like the quests for this class though. Haven Bless is way too powerful. Smiting Light is a cool ability and so is Call a Favor. I think this class is a great idea in principle, just that the background needs to be changed a bit and the powers tweaked. The biggest downer for me is the fact that the monk is at odds with other good beings.

I like the *Neclord*, though not the name so much. What is this Necropolis from which the Neclord issues? A hamlet in D&D can have no more than 400 people, most of whom are commoners … an easy target, so not much of a quest if you have 500 shambling corpses backing you up. Of course, you could have meant hamlet in a looser meaning. Most of the Neclord’s powers are great and very in theme with the class. Resist Negative Energy should have a huge bonus, like +2 or +3 per power level. The use of spells in conjunction with the skeletal hand attacks is a nice touch (pun intended)—why not add abilities for chill touch and ghoul touch? Perhaps Crippling Touch should drain only Con and/or Str or replicate the poison spell. I think Turn Resistance and Bolster Undead could be combined in a spell-like effect like the unhallow spell without the benefit of said effect being tied to a site. Certainly, the Neclord should be able to generate a magic circle against good, regardless.

The *Nimrod* is a good idea, but many of the powers seem a bit tame (pun intended). The saving throw bonuses seem a bit weird as well. Does it say anywhere in the Core Rules that Heal cannot be used on animals? I think that bonus Druidic language should be a class feature. I like the druidic abilities, but just 0-level spells? Further, why not push the Druidic Abilities power to gaining druid abilities of the power level +1—that way there’s an advantage to taking it no matter what. (Or you could take Nature Sense as a class feature away and leave it the same. Further, the description of Druidic Abilities says there is no advantage to power level 5—why not … does the Nimrod not gain wild shape? I think my favorite Nimrod ability is Environmental Attunement. What does “peaceful outdoor setting” mean in the description of Hunting Ability? Like I said, the class is a good idea, but the powers need some honing.

The *Ranged Huntsman* is another good ranger class (we seem to like rangers and monks in this contest). Of course, the Huntsman must be at least a 4th-level fighter to meet the Feat requirements. (Paul did a good job with his prerequisites BTW, probably the best in the group—even if I dislike requirements of 18 stat scores.) In the first quest it seems unclear to me whether or not just one of these acts is required – if so, it’s too easy. If the Huntsman can use the healing herbs of nature to mystically heal, shouldn’t he be required to have Profession (herbalist) and the Heal skill at a certain level? I also think that Improved Far Shot would have been enough range-affecting powers. Improved Rapid shot is good and a lot like what I recommended for the Deadeye Archer. I like that such a character is especially deadly to his favored enemies, but these powers seem a bit too powerful … they could be scaled back a bit.

The *Returning Avatar* is a great concept (the danger of the name is the use of avatar which is usually reserved for the earthly manifestation of a god). I don’t understand why Weapon Finesse is on the list of feat requirements (nor why such a character would need Iron Will). I would think that a Returning Avatar would have to do something that won him or her the adulation of the masses as well as the favoring eye of the deity in question (and would probably, therefore, need to be good or neutral aligned). The quests strike me as appropriate, but kinda flat. For example, a warrior desiring to become a Returning Avatar (of St. Cuthbert) might gather and train an army to drive out an invading tyrant’s armies and place a new king on the throne (ala Joan of Arc) while meting out justice to the leaders of the opposing force as they deserve. I don’t understand the paired-down Weapon Proficiency list (nor the limit of 4 levels)—shouldn’t this list include the deity’s favored weapon? For that matter, shouldn’t the avatar have to proficient in said favored weapon? The abilities are a bit limited and seem to relate very strangely to power level. This class is a great legendary idea, but needs some work.

*Spirit of the Beast* shapes up to be one of my favorites in concept. Unfortunately, it reads like the author was afraid to commit to the idea of legendary power. I think the Binding Ritual Quest has too steep save DCs and the price of failure is too high, unless the shaman is aiding the aspirant with magic on those saving throws. I don’t really like that the abilities are only useable in a Rage state, and, with that in mind, why does Rage Form bother to state that the ability is used when in Rage? Howl of the Beast is way too powerful, and should be something that affects enemy morale or something. Why does the animal spirit have an elemental subtype? It would make more sense to make some unique aspect to spirits. Spirit Walk is weak, considering spells such as etherealness and ethereal jaunt. Totemic Aura, on the other hand is too powerful, one bonus or the other please. _Totemic Smite_ is a good idea, but the favored enemy feature and the smite ability (perhaps) should be two separate powers. Spirit Lore is the same as Knowledge (spirits) BTW. I would have liked to see this class have a hybrid form ability like the Beorning warriors of Middle Earth. This is still one of my favorite submissions!

Jack Burton never had it so rough in _Big Trouble in Little China_ (one of the greatest movies of all time)! * The Storm*  rocks! I’d have liked to see a Will save higher on this character class and the ability _Lightning Strike_ tied more heavily to power level (like once per day per power level). I really love The _Calm Before_ ability. _Heated Rage_ needs a bit of work to make it seem more unique, instead of just stacking with other rage … although that’s pretty scary. Thunderclap should be once per day per power level and perhaps _Warning Fires_ should last a number of rounds equal to the *Storm’s* Cha modifier plus power level. I just think that this guy should have access to the fly spell or air walk spell in some way. This class is fun … can I use it?


( I got lazy about the tags.) That’s it for now … I’ll get to the last few later on. Maybe we could make some the better ones here official FFG material for download on their site too? (After pro editing, of course.)


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 21, 2002)

You are right, the design document didn't say they had to be at least 12th level to meet the prereqs....oops! I guess that was our little secret. 

The first level that a character should be able to become a legend is 13th. So if you look at our published classes, nearly all of them has a skill that requires 15 ranks, which can't be achieved until 12th level.

The Dragon example I used in the introduction does just this, he announced at 11th level so he could become the Dragon at 13th.


----------



## reddist (Jul 22, 2002)

*Thanks oodles*

Many thanks to Shadeus and Khur for their time and effort spent doing these purely voluntary reviews.  Their thoughts are most appreciated.

At least by me

-Reddist


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: More critiques and fun...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Paul did a good job with his prerequisites BTW, probably the best in the group—even if I dislike requirements of 18 stat scores.*



Thank you for the compliment.


----------



## Khur (Jul 22, 2002)

*I can see clearly now!*



			
				d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *The first level that a character should be able to become a legend is 13th. So if you look at our published classes, nearly all of them has a skill that requires 15 ranks, which can't be achieved until 12th level.*




Aha, but the *Adamantine Warrior*(tm)  did not have a skill requirement, although the *Black Knight* info tacked on the end did. Both the *Ghost Bear* and the *Witch Queen* appearing in _Polyhedron_ did too. DOH! I didn't see the pattern!

 

Oh well. I'm still reworking mine a bit to make the quests harder and to fit the prerequisites in. Then I'm making a character (again) to make sure it all works out.

I must admit I had Prestige Classes on the brain when designing the prerequisites and wanted multiple paths to the Legendary Class. I see that there's not very much room for that in these classes. That's OK because other classes get their own books.

Thanks!


----------



## Sheridan (Jul 22, 2002)

*Nimrod Legendary Class*

Khur,
Thanks for your comments on my Nimrod Legendary Class.  Here’s what some of my reasoning was behind a few of the abilities you questioned:
1) Tameness (nice pun) on powers – I wanted something that offered definite advantages over being just a plain Ranger, but not something that was too powerful or over the top as to definitely upset game balance.  With this in mind, I probably tended to err on the cautious side.
2) Saves – I used the “higher” save bonus recommended for levels 1-5 (just as Rangers do), but just like in the Adamantite Warrior example, I decided to improve the remaining saves over what was suggested by the standard “lower” bonus.  An alternative would have been to use the “higher” saves for two of the three saving throws (Fort and Will, for example), and the “lower” bonus for one rather than two saves.  My intent again, was to give a bonus over the standards, but not too “over the top”.
3) The Heal Skill does not (to my knowledge) explicitly say anywhere that it cannot be used on animals, but the write up in the Player’s Handbook reads as if it was intended for use only on player character races.  To have it applicable to animal species as well, by default, seems a bit of a leap to me, but would probably vary according to DM’s discretion.
4) Druidic abilities – You offered some great suggestions, but the one thing I did not want to use was the Druid’s “Wild Shape” ability, as I was trying to create a character that had managed to “attune” themselves to animals and nature, without actually having the ability to "be" an animal.  It was a purposeful omission.  As far as the 0-level spells and my reasoning for not automatically granting some of the abilities as class abilities, again, I tended to be somewhat conservative, as I want players to be able to customize the class to their liking, but didn’t want to make them uber-burly.  That was my original line of thinking anyway, but I *really* liked some of your suggestions here !
5) “Peaceful outdoor setting” – Basically, when the Nimrod would have surprise - no combat currently taking place, and the Nimrod has managed to find an advantageous location, through the use of Hide, Move Silently, etc. as applicable.
Again, Khur, thanks a lot for taking the time to put your suggestions/reviews together.  I’m sure most everyone who submitted a Legendary Class appreciated your well thought out feedback !
*Sheridan


----------



## Sheridan (Jul 22, 2002)

*Current Contests link*

Could the link for this thread be put back on the home page under "Current Contests", at least until the winners are posted ?  I had a heck of a time trying to find this again after it was taken off the contests lists.  Now at least I have it bookmarked.  
Just a suggestion !
Thanks,
*Sheridan


----------



## Tallow (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: More critiques and fun...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Spirit of the Beast shapes up to be one of my favorites in concept. Unfortunately, it reads like the author was afraid to commit to the idea of legendary power. I think the Binding Ritual Quest has too steep save DCs and the price of failure is too high, unless the shaman is aiding the aspirant with magic on those saving throws. I don’t really like that the abilities are only useable in a Rage state, and, with that in mind, why does Rage Form bother to state that the ability is used when in Rage? Howl of the Beast is way too powerful, and should be something that affects enemy morale or something. Why does the animal spirit have an elemental subtype? It would make more sense to make some unique aspect to spirits. Spirit Walk is weak, considering spells such as etherealness and ethereal jaunt. Totemic Aura, on the other hand is too powerful, one bonus or the other please. Totemic Smite is a good idea, but the favored enemy feature and the smite ability (perhaps) should be two separate powers. Spirit Lore is the same as Knowledge (spirits) BTW. I would have liked to see this class have a hybrid form ability like the Beorning warriors of Middle Earth. This is still one of my favorite submissions!
> 
> *




I'm not sure I understand why you felt I was afraid to commit to legendary power.  Please explain that comment.

Here are some of my comments that might make sense to you. By the way, I really do appreciate your honest criticism, and I'm glad you enjoyed the concept.

1.  Only in Rage  Form:  My intent was that the power of the rage is what fueled the powers while the bonding with the animal totem facilitated them.  I don't believe I said under the Rage Form heading that Rage Form was only useable in rage.  I made the blanket generic note, so I didn't have to rewrite it 8 times.  If it made the one ability a bit redundant, oh well.  The elemental subtype to me, was the logical progression of the next powerful creature from Huge size.  Nature, in many nature-based society's philosophies, is composed of 4 or 5 elements.  As such, it makes sense that the paragon of a Bear Spirit might be a Huge Fiery Bear.  Please give an example of the 5 level of progression you would have used?

2. On the Binding Ritual save DC's, the idea was that during the preparation, the Shaman very well could enhance his saves with magic, and I wanted to make it very difficult.  The fortitude Save, for a 13th level Barbarian, should be about a 15% deal.  They should be able to make it with a roll of 17 or better.  Consider that by 13th Level, the barbarian has probably gathered plenty of items to enhance his saves and has the Great Fortitude feat (a requirement).  Perhaps leave the Fortitude at 30, but drop the Will save to 25 to give a similar chance at the Will save.

3.  Howl of the Beast: The intent was to use the howl much like a Wolf calling for help from his brethren, or akin to the Horn of Gondor.  "Hey, I need help, come give it to me!"  I agree, the power could be ridiculous if he had an 18 Cha, and rolled a 6, and his animal totem was elephant.  Can you imagine fighting next to 10 Dire Elephants?  I suppose thats Legendary <G>.  Perhaps if I changed it to a number of hit dice of creatures equal to 5HD per power level.  That way at 5th power level, the Elephant Spirit of the Beast could summon 1 dire elephant, while the Wolf could still summon multiple dire wolves.  Perhaps rather than make it a summon like the spell, he calls out and if any animals up to the max hit dice are within 1 mile per power level, they come running.  The chance they are in the area will be up to the DM, but its doubtful that the Python could call Pythons while adventuring on a Glacier.

4.  Spirit Walk:  Yeah I wasn't extremely happy with this one, but I wanted to limit it severely.  After all the Spirit of the Beast is NOT "true" spell caster.  Even if he takes the Casting ability.   The idea was, that it would give him an ability to do some stealthy recon and/or walk through an otherwise impassable wall, or something like that.

5.  Totemic Aura:  Yeah, I guess a total possible swing of 10 is too much.  Consider it a penalty to the enemy then.  Barbarian's are harsh, let the skald cheer them up or let them find their own cheer <G>.

6.  Totemic Smite:  I disagree with you completely on this one.  The reasoning is that Favored Enemy grants them a better chance to hit harder because they are intimately familiar with tactics, anatomy, etc.  The favored enemy part facilitates the catastrophic attack part.

7.  Hybrid Form:  I considered a hybrid form, perhaps as the 5th power level of Rage Form.  I might actually adjust Rage Form to make the 5th power level grant a hybrid form.  I just didn't want to get too cheesy with this guy.  Can you imagine a HUGE man-bear?

Again, thanks for the constructive criticism.  I'm glad you enjoyed the concept if not the entirety of the extrapolation.

Andy Christian


----------



## reddist (Jul 22, 2002)

*Brawler feedback feedback*

Heya  Following are replies to Khur's and Shadeus' critiques of one of my LCs...

*[The only beefs I have with this guy is that his Thick Blood doesn’t seem so thick. A maximum +5 to Fort saves versus mundane poison isn’t so much.]* 

True, and it is only applied in special cases... how about twice his power level to save vs mundane poisons?  That brings his max up to +10.

Speaking of which, his BAB will have to be brought up to +12 as well it sounds like.

*[Shrug Off Blows is way too powerful... etc] and [I have to agree with Khur, that the Shrug off blows is a bit too powerful. ]* 

Also well considered.... and I like your subdual DR suggestion.

Shurg Off Blows (Ex): The Brawler is adept at absorbing damage.  He has a damage resistance applicable to subdual damage sustained in melee equal to his power level plus his Constitution modifier.  This does not apply to normal damage or energy damage, or to subdual damage brought on by enviornmental conditions.

*[The Brawler is hilarious! I hope it was meant to be funny – a “legendary” bar-fighter. *har, har * ] and [and I wasn't sure if a bar-room brawler could be the stuff of legends.]*

Haven't you guys seen "Everywhich Way But Loose,"  "Roadhouse," "Fight Club," or any of those "Prisoner v Prisoner Down in the Broiler Room" or other "illegal pit fighting for fun and profit" movies?  Rarely does anybody actually DIE (unless its the villain killing the hero's best friend/lover/brother) in these, and the heroes certainly make a name for themselves by being good at what they do

Plus, I think PCs getting involved in a knock-down, drag-out, no-holds-barred fist fight might be fun.  That, and medieval Toughman Contests are held at every solstice festival!  1000gp if you can beat the King's Warden at fisticuffs!

Thanks for your time and consideration.  Your comments are appreciated.

Anyone looked at "The One" yet?  I had fun with it

-Reddist


----------



## RedCliff (Jul 22, 2002)

> *Warrior of the Broken Wake* - I definitely think Sever Life is too powerful.  If taken at 5th-level, that means 25 points of damage would be enough for a save or die.  Combine that with Crushing Blow and that means just about every hit is save or die.




Actually, Crushing Blow only applies when striking objects, sundering, that sort of thing. The damage bonus doesn't apply to the living. I played with the wording on that for a while, and cut down on the verbiage significantly in the final form, though I apparently didn't make it as clear as I was hoping.

As to making it an increase in the massive damage DC check, that's probably a good alternative, and frankly I don't know why I didn't think of it.  The reason I figured dropping the threshold as low as 25 would be alright was simply because I figured anything legends would be fighting could make the standard DC most times.  But overall, I think increasing the DC would be the better way to go, if simply to remove an extra die roll from the combat turn and make things move faster in general.  So yeah, if I could go back and change that, I would.

On to others work: (I hope to get more up soon)

*Bearer of the World's Pain:* I think the concept is great, and I really like some of the powers.  The various paths you could take with this class bring to mind images of everything from humble wadering holy men to avengers like the Crow (especially with Thy Pain Returned).  It's not a typical hero by any means, but the fact that there are a plethora of real legends of people who endure great suffering certainly shows the concept is worthy of a legendary class.

I loved the Last Gift.  What's more epic and legendary than a hero dying at the apex of his final, greatest struggle?  That last boost he could give his flagging companions in his sacrifice ensures the Bearer of the World's Pain is the friend all the survivors mourn and claim was the real hero of the day.  However, a one use power seems a bit steep.  I might change this to either when the Bearer is brought to negative hit points, or at least allow it's use if the hero is resurrected.  Maybe placing some stipulations on resurrection, like what was done with the Adamantine Warrior, would be appropriate.

Pain None Shall Feel could be quite unbalancing unless I'm reading it wrong. Is it 10/- per level meaning at level 3 it's 30/-, or is it 10/+3?  The latter would be quite strong, but the former could really send a campaign into an uproar.

As for Demonbane, I think it's a good idea, and the power is certainly far from overdone, but I'm not sure about the bonus only applying to unarmed attacks.  I know that this class is intended for monks, but isn't the whole idea of prestige classes to transcend normal classes?  They're more conceptually based than anything, just like this class.  The text even says that paladins and clerics could seek this path, and that's certainly appropriate.  But then why wouldn't their weapons get the bonus?  I don't think balance would be horribly upset by applying this bonus to the Bearer's other weapons as well.

Really though, the only issue I really have with the class is the quest.  There seems something wrong with just taking a trail and then becoming a legend.  The feel I got from reading the FFG excerpt we were provided was that the quests themselves should be worthy of stories.  The adamantine warrior first has to stalk off and slay overwhelming odds.  Only then, once the stories are already beginning, does he undergo the test to see if he truly is the one.  But by the time he's a full blown adamantine warrior, there's a good chance his exploits from the trials are already being attributed to him as his first deeds as the warrior. 

The trials laid out for this class are difficult (maybe too much, since failing some very difficult saves will kill your character), but not particularly legendary.  Nothing springs to mind immediately unfortunately, so I'm not sure how useful that is, but some quest where the character has to really give of himself for others would seem appropriate.  Maybe even throw in a requirement where the character must have sacrificed his life for another.  That should get the stories going.


----------



## Khur (Jul 22, 2002)

*Nimrod, take II*



			
				Sheridan said:
			
		

> *Khur,
> Thanks for your comments on my Nimrod Legendary Class.  Here’s what some of my reasoning was behind a few of the abilities you questioned:*




My pleasure, it was fun to read yours (and everyone's) hard work – and I know it’s hard work. I think many ideas presented by the hopefuls in this contest were very good, such as your use of the word Nimrod. Many persons may think that Nimrod is an insulting term by its use in some slang today. Few in the general populace realize its application to skilled hunters, since Noah’s son (a skilled legendary hunter) was named Nimrod.



> *1) Tameness (nice pun) on powers – I wanted something that offered definite advantages over being just a plain Ranger, but not something that was too powerful or over the top as to definitely upset game balance.  With this in mind, I probably tended to err on the cautious side.*




Many of us erred on the side of caution, probably influenced by experience as GMs in games gone awry as well as the concept of Prestige Classes. Without getting into the philosophy of game balance (a mythical creature greatly sought, but never captured), these LCs push the gamut of the concept. Should a legendary character have to be balanced? My thought is: no. Therefore, the accomplishments needed to get into such a class should be titanic. Players should try and fail.



> *2) Saves – I used the “higher” save bonus recommended for levels 1-5…*




Aha, I see what you did and from where the Will progression comes. The single +1 at the top threw me, since “low” saves are usually +0, +0, +1, +1, +1, +2, and etc. This may be a better idea than the dual “high” saving throw seen in many LCs, but refer to game balance above. LCs are like the monks, druids, and clerics of high-level play. They’re supposed to be burly, and so have better saves.



> *3) The Heal Skill does not (to my knowledge) explicitly say anywhere that it cannot be used on animals, but the write up in the Player’s Handbook reads as if it was intended for use only on player character races.  To have it applicable to animal species as well, by default, seems a bit of a leap to me, but would probably vary according to DM’s discretion. *




I think that this was a flaw in the original design of the game. Handle Animal (perhaps Animal Empathy) and Heal should have some synergy in this situation – so possessing both skills makes you a veterinarian. (This allows one to use the Expert class to make a great animal trainer and healer, especially if said NPC takes a level or three of adept.) 

Most skills are broad in scope – for example in the PH it shows how Bluff can be used to feint in combat. Defenders of the Faith describes how Heal can be used to gather forensic evidence (a bad idea in my opinion, because it seems to assert that any doctor could do forensic work). This shows how broad a skill can be. I think that it’s reasonable to allow skills to affect each other or even require synergies. Like, instead of allowing a character with plain Heal to be a forensics expert, require Knowledge (forensics) as well, and the two grant synergy bonuses in some way in appropriate circumstances.



> *I did not want to use was the Druid’s “Wild Shape” ability, as I was trying to create a character that had managed to “attune” themselves to animals and nature, without actually having the ability to "be" an animal. *




I understand, I just think that the class would be better served by slightly more powerful spellcasting, maybe with a choice from a specific list of appropriate druid spells – the choices limited by power level. (See the Green Warden’s _One with the Land_ ability.) Consider Venom Immunity as the power level 5 ability for Druidic Abilities – I know it’s a 9th-level class feature for the druid, but so what. We’re talking a legendary hero with at the pinnacle of possible power. It’s also a nice relation to Prepare Antitoxin.



> * 5) “Peaceful outdoor setting” – Basically, when the Nimrod would have surprise - no combat currently taking place, and the Nimrod has managed to find an advantageous location…*




I see this Hunting Ability, but the possibilities expand before me. What you have here is more of a Prestige Class ability. Consider making the bonus +2 per power level to both abilities listed in Hunting Ability. Also, if the Nimrod has surprise on his side, why not allow an increased threat range (+1 per power level) for criticals and/or sneak-attack-like damage bonuses against animals? That’s legendary hunting! 

The fact is, raised with a hunter, I learned it’s quite easy to bring down animals with one shot (from an arrow). But consider that Silver Marches lists an elk as having 16 hp on average and a non-magical 18-19 Str mighty longbow can do a maximum of 12 (1d8 + 4) on  a non-critical hit (20). Hunters bring down animals listed with high hp (10+) more than 5% of the time. Further, it was well-known around where I grew up that a man with quite a temper killed a horse (light horse, 19 hp) with his fist in one blow – perhaps he just rolled 3 20s. 

I like this discussion!


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: Brawler feedback feedback*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *[Shrug Off Blows is way too powerful... etc] and [I have to agree with Khur, that the Shrug off blows is a bit too powerful. ]*
> 
> Also well considered.... and I like your subdual DR suggestion.
> 
> Shurg Off Blows (Ex): The Brawler is adept at absorbing damage.  He has a damage resistance applicable to subdual damage sustained in melee equal to his power level plus his Constitution modifier.  This does not apply to normal damage or energy damage, or to subdual damage brought on by enviornmental conditions.




Actually I kinda liked the ability to heal subdual damage super fast.  It isn't overpowering, in my opinion, since it is only subdual damage that's being healed.

Also, in reference to the case above, I'm not sure its a good idea to make an ability's power relate to an attribute bonus. If you do that, suddenly the power level at which I take this ability doesn't really matter that much in comparison to my +5 or +6 Con modifier. I try to make the power level at which you take an ability as important as possible, since that's some of the main flavor of these classes. One reason LgCs are cool is that any two of the same class can be completely different based on when they take certain abilities. In my opinion, it is better to increase the bonus per power level and then just leave the attribute modifier out. So give him DR 2/- per power level against subdual damage, or even 3/- since it is one of his main abilities.  These guys are legendary!!!

I'm enjoying the discussion immensely.


----------



## Khur (Jul 22, 2002)

*Brawler feedback feedback feedback feedback*



			
				d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Actually I kinda liked the ability to heal subdual damage super fast.  It isn't overpowering, in my opinion, since it is only subdual damage that's being healed. *




The reason I said it was too powerful is because the guy in question is healing pretty rapidly at power level 5 ... but I see the point. I tend to be a worse case scenario GM when analyzing abilities for inclusion in my campaign.

A character with Shrug Off Blows at level 1 is healing 600 points of subdual damage per hour. Too much, especially considering the original language of the power doesn't distinguish between subdual caused by melee and that caused by exposure or movement. This power (inadvertently) renders the character immune to cold and hot weather and gives unlimited endurance for Hustling and Forced March.

The fact that the latter examples do subdual damage is a bone-headed piece of game design is beside the point. The fact that hit points were used exclusively in D&D in lieu of the more elegant Wound Point system was also bone-headed, but that’s another topic.


----------



## reddist (Jul 22, 2002)

*Brawlerpatches*

I definitely see Khur's point about the rapid healing, even of subdual damage, being a bit over much.  I had intended to put the bit in about weather/environmental effects in the final copy, but it didn't make it.

I also see d20Dwarf's point about not tying legendary abilities to ability modifiers...

So how about these patches to the original text

Base (Unarmed) Attack Bonus: 12+

Thick Blood (Ex): Years spent in bars drinking minotaurs and ogres under the table builds up the Brawler's tolerances to poisons in his bloodstream.  He gains a bonus to Fortitude saves versus mundane poisons equal to *twice* his power level, including saves to avoid the adverse side effects of alcohol. 

Shrug Off Blows (Ex): The Brawler is adept at absorbing damage. He gains damage resistance against subdual damage sustained in melee *equal to twice his power level.*  Thus, at third level, he gains DR 6/- versus subdual damage.  This does not apply to normal damage or energy damage, or to subdual damage brought on by environmental conditions or physical activity outside of melee.


I wonder about increasing the DR to 3/PL though.  That'd potentially get him to DR 15/-, applicable only to subdual melee damage, vs DR 10/-.  I guess in the long run 15 is not that much overly powerful than 10.

-Reddist


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 22, 2002)

Khur,

You are good to look at worst case scenarios, I have to do the same thing. I have some of the best munchkins in the business breaking my lame ideas.  When it comes to LgC abilities, I tend to overpower some of them just a bit because the classes are so darn hard to get into!

Reddist,

That's fine to keep the DR where it is, I don't think either way is really wrong, one just focuses on the low side while the other on the high side.

Also on requirements, it has been suggested that ability requirements be placed at odd numbers, since even numbers already give you a bonus. Placing it at an odd number gives someone a reason to put that 17 in Con instead of the 16, or to bump it up at 4th or 8th level.


----------



## Shadeus (Jul 22, 2002)

The part I've been having trouble balancing with the LgC is the fact you only get one power of each level.  So for example, the Shrug off Blows seems very powerful when taken at 5th-level, and very weak when taken at 1st-level.  But you have to understand you only can take one ability at level 5.  So its a matter of balancing out not only the 10/- for Shrug Off Blows, but what's unbalancing about another ability at 4th-level?

I had a lot of problems with it in my Grandmaster of the Clouds because he gets a Dex bonus and an Initiative bonus as two possible abilities.  Combining both (Dex at 4th-level and the Init bonus at 5th) makes for a +4 bonus to Dex (+2 Init) and a +5 bonus to Init, which is a total of +7 to Initiative.  Is that totally unbalancing.  Combine that with Imp. Init and a Base 20 Dex and you have +16 to Initiative.  Is that balanced?  Probably not.  However, there's all kinds of other abilities they give up when they do this.

It is a very cool concept, but just very difficult to balance correctly.


----------



## Khur (Jul 22, 2002)

*Spirited Spirits...*



			
				Tallow said:
			
		

> *I'm not sure I understand why you felt I was afraid to commit to legendary power.  Please explain that comment.*



The blanket statement requiring the rage seems to limit the powers severely, unless I misunderstood the statement. Regardless of power-level, you can only use the powers while raging. That’s all. I liked the ideas and much of your execution. Perhaps I’m just too thick-skulled! It’s possible.


> *1. I don't believe I said under the Rage Form heading that Rage Form was only useable in rage.*



The power begins: _“When a spirit of the beast rages, he gains the ability to shape shift into the form of his animal totem.”_ That suggested to me that it was only useable in rage. I don’t blame you for the blanket note, but I still think that some of these powers should be usable outside of rage … like Spirit Walk.


> *The elemental subtype to me, was the logical progression of the next powerful creature from Huge size.  Nature, in many nature-based society's philosophies, is composed of 4 or 5 elements. Please give an example of the 5 level of progression you would have used?*



I’m not trying to invalidate your logic, which is certainly appropriate to the D&D cosmology, but most of the reading I’ve don didn’t show that “primitive” or “nature-based” societies had complex concepts of elementalism. I’d be glad to see your references. The concept of five elements comes largely from scientific mysticism of somewhat evolved societies according to my studies (Kabbalah, Vedic culture (late I think), Egyptian Mystery Systems, Hermetic Orders, etc.).

My list (standing on the shoulders of your work, of course) slightly less powerful than a druid:

Level I – Normal size for Wild Shape
Level II – Hybrid Form
Level III – Large-sized animal
Level IV – Large Hybrid (This requires some definition, but that’s cool and eliminates the Huge man-bear problem, but gives you the ability to become a grizzly-sized man-bear – like Beorn!)
Level V – Dire Animal (size is not a factor for the term dire)
Hybrid forms aren’t cheesy, most people seem to like them. The problems are making them seem realistic within the fantasy cosmology in which they exist and coming up with stats that reflect the nature of the form.


> *2. On the Binding Ritual save DC's, the idea was that during the preparation, the Shaman very well could enhance his saves with magic, and I wanted to make it very difficult.*



You succeeded and I really like your quests, if I didn’t make that clear. Another solution is that the shaman and the aspirant himself cannot use the aid of other spirits (magic or magic items). Lowering the Will save seems appropriate. You have to remember that this quest reads like, _“You fail, you lose your character barring hefty juju to bring him back from 2 Int or permanent animal form.”_


> *3.  Howl of the Beast: I agree, the power could be ridiculous if he had an 18 Cha, and rolled a 6, and his animal totem was elephant.  Can you imagine fighting next to 10 Dire Elephants? *



I like the concept and the power and you understand my worst-case-scenario analysis. Your solutions to the problem satisfy my aching DM head and save me from munchkinism at its worst. (BTW munchkins can be fun, I’m not coming down on the little sweethearts.)


> *4.  Spirit Walk:  … the Spirit of the Beast is NOT "true" spell caster. The idea was, that it would give him an ability to do some stealthy recon and/or walk through an otherwise impassable wall, or something like that.*



The problem is that you state the ability is usable on during rage (in your blanket statement) and *nobody* does recon while raging. Secondly, being able to use a single spell as a spell-like ability is fine for a noncaster – a precedent set by WotC. And just to pick nits, anyone who takes a spellcasting class level is a true caster.


> *6.  Totemic Smite: The reasoning is that Favored Enemy grants them a better chance to hit harder because they are intimately familiar with tactics, anatomy, etc.  The favored enemy part facilitates the catastrophic attack part.*



 I agree, I don’t know what I was thinking … I reread the power and it seems legit and tastily deadly!

Nice work. I know making these classes work is difficult. I’m doing an awful lot of editing for no pay!


----------



## Tallow (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: Spirited Spirits...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *The blanket statement requiring the rage seems to limit the powers severely, unless I misunderstood the statement. Regardless of power-level, you can only use the powers while raging. That’s all. I liked the ideas and much of your execution. Perhaps I’m just too thick-skulled! It’s possible.
> The power begins: “When a spirit of the beast rages, he gains the ability to shape shift into the form of his animal totem.” That suggested to me that it was only useable in rage. I don’t blame you for the blanket note, but I still think that some of these powers should be usable outside of rage … like Spirit Walk.
> I’m not trying to invalidate your logic, which is certainly appropriate to the D&D cosmology, but most of the reading I’ve don didn’t show that “primitive” or “nature-based” societies had complex concepts of elementalism. I’d be glad to see your references. The concept of five elements comes largely from scientific mysticism of somewhat evolved societies according to my studies (Kabbalah, Vedic culture (late I think), Egyptian Mystery Systems, Hermetic Orders, etc.).
> 
> ...




Hey, I really do appreciate all the comments.  Sometimes someone you don't know who will give an unbiased dispassionate view of things is the best critique one can get.

I agree, perhaps Spirit Walk and the Spirit Casting power can be done outside of Rage.  

Oriental Animism, which is the religion/philosophy of the east before Buddhism or Confusius or Daoism (in Japan it was called Shintoism) had a belief that everything was made from Metal, Wind, Wood, Fire, and Water I believe.  The D&D Cosmology kinda follows that, but with the 4 Elements and all their quasi and para combinations.

Yes, perhaps your progression would work better.  Although being able to change into a Huge animal would be cool I think.

Andy Christian


----------



## Khur (Jul 22, 2002)

*Don't I have a life?*

*Reddist,*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *Haven't you guys seen "Everywhich Way But Loose," "Roadhouse," "Fight Club," …*



 I hope I didn’t and don’t hurt your feelings … the class was fun. Even in the movies you mention, nobody was really like a demigod (except maybe Tyler Durden, but even he gets beat up pretty quick by Moe). I like your tweaks though and they make the class clearer and less of a headache for poor DMs just trying to have fun too. I agree with d20 Dwarf in that 2 or 3 DR per level works fine, depending on how tough you want the guy to be. Real toughs in the D&D game can dish out lotsa subdual with their fists.

Did you consider making the Brawler able to do real damage with his fists? (The “nobody dies” statement was duly noted.) What about adding a feature to Shrug Off Blows that allows the Brawler to soak some real damage as long as it comes from “unarmed” attacks?


*Shadeus,*


			
				Shadeus said:
			
		

> *Combine that with Imp. Init and a Base 20 Dex and you have +16 to Initiative. Is that balanced?*



Don’t worry so much about how certain numbers total, especially if they’re only used once in a combat. Think about the spell _true strike_. I had a player's Ftr/Abj use cast _true strike_ and then he rolled a 20 on his next attack (a threat), and then rolled a 20 on the threat -- I didn't make him roll for the instant kill. It was fun to describe the results of such a roll.

The player decides to get +16 to initiative instead of other abilities. So he gets to go first in every combat in which he’s not surprised. That’s really not so unbalancing, but it is pretty legendary.

_“Grandmaster of the Clouds, Ling Po, was ambushed by thirteen men, yet before they could fire their already-leveled crossbows, he was among them and five of them were already dead!”_

Fun stuff!

PS -- Does the grandmaster continue to get monk unarmed attack bonuses?


----------



## RedCliff (Jul 23, 2002)

*Blade of God*

*Blade of God:*   Sort of a super paladin.  Certainly something legends could be told of.  Arthur and his knights quested for the holy grail, Gawain had a portrait of Mary on the inside of his shield to give him stength in combat, and so on.  In D&D, where you have things like the Time of Troubles, holy champions work even better.

I liked the quests as a base concept, especially the first one.  I don't really see it as a tried and true legendary feat to make it past scholarly debates, but it's a nice touch that the church isn't willing to simply chuck away valuable members of their establishment simply because they think they might have had a calling.  Establishing the validity of the call, and the worthiness of the recipient is a neat idea. 

I think the trials should be broken out more though.  Any DM is free to invent his own; that's a given.  Still, I would have liked to see a few more bulleted points.  Make recovering an artifact or lost site a quest.  Make military service against religious enemies a separate quest.  

And while I like the idea of serving as an acolyte to teach humility, I wonder about the playability of it.  It's a solid story idea, but how many people want their hard earned prestige stripped away so they can spend a year of game time slopping pig troughs or collecting alms.  I realize you can skip over it, but doing that takes away the emphasis of it all.  And it seems to me that adventuring during that time would violate the spirit of the quest as well.  It's not impossible to deal with, but it might prove difficult.

As to the quest of fighting the avatar, I like it in concept, but I think that fighting your own god's avatar might not quite be right. What about hunting down the avatar or high priest of an enemy deity.  Besting either of those would be sure to win the warrior a special place in the patron deity's heart.

As for the requirements, they look pretty solid overall.  I question weapon specialization though.  I know this is a fighter based legendary class, but with the hard religious bent of it, this class seems made for paladins.  With the restriction on paladin multi-classing though, unless the poor holy warrior didn't receive his call to paladinhood until after four levels of fighter, he's doomed to be denied this special calling from his deity. Seems a bit harsh I think.  And I'm not sure what the reason is for limiting this class to followers of deities with bladed weapons. If Blade of God can easily become Blade of Heronius, then couldn't it also become Cudgel of Cuthbert?

Critical Attack is deadly in the extreme, and perhaps a bit powerful.  Perhaps limiting this to a number of times per day equal to the power level, or requiring the use of one of the warriors turn attempts, or smite attempts, might bring it in line.  I like the idea of the deity being able to grant its chosen phenominal ability with its chosen weapon, but even a +3 to the threat range of a weapon for every strike, all the time, especially considering that Improved Critical is already a requirement, would risk every strike being a threat.  Calling on another divine ability, like a smite or a turn attempt, would invoke the idea of divine aid more strongly as well (and would make Smite of God all the more important as well).

Critical Damage is also fiercely deadly, but the caveat of a limited number of times per day already brings it back into line, so it doesn't strike me as horribly unbalancing.  I might change it from declaring it before the critical dice are rolled to declaring it before rolling the second attack to confirm the critical though.

Dancing Attack is the last of the big guns.  Doubling the number of attacks is amazingly powerful (I assume the BAB for that round would be something like +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3).  Ouch.  And that's over multiple rounds.  I think with very little modification though, this could really work.  Instead of doubling the number of attacks, why not try something like what WotC set up for their prestige class, the Tempest?  In that, you gain more and more attacks per round, but continually lose 5 points per attack.  So instead of the attack scheme above, the BAB would be +13/+8/+3/-2/-7/-12.  Harsh, yes, but that's only base attack.  Strength modifiers still apply, as do weapon focus, magical bonuses, etc.  And that makes Strength of God all the more useful as well.

Overall I liked the idea for this class, though ultimately I think its focus places it a bit outside the bounds of the fighter, ranger, barbarian, monk category stated.  Still, with a little tweaking, it has the potential to create some fantastic heroes.


----------



## RedCliff (Jul 23, 2002)

*Brawler fixes*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> What about adding a feature to Shrug Off Blows that allows the Brawler to soak some real damage as long as it comes from “unarmed” attacks?




What about the ability to translate a certain amount of real damage from bludgeoning attacks into subdual?  That might be worthy of a power all its own though.  But in conjunction with the ability to recover more quickly from subdual, it could be useful, powerful (though not overly so, I think), and appropriate.  As the text of calloused knuckles says, fending off barbarians wielding wooden chairs toughens a man.  Extending that to being able to take a clubbing a little better seems not so outrageous.


----------



## ajanders (Jul 23, 2002)

*Lord of The Land*

_The Lord of the Land seems like a good idea, but some ritual mystic tie to the land seems to be in order … like the pagan ceremony Arthur undergoes in The Mists of Avalon. Recognition of some applicable deity through some heroic act would be good._ 

I almost did require that, then backed off.  It seemed more legendary to me to have the power come from the act of rulership itself, rather than being bestowed or allowed by a deity.
That's probably more personal bias than good research, however.  I would be interested in people's opinions on that, more for an idea about themes and the potential place of religion than for the mechanics of the class.

_The quests seem not more than would be expected of any good noble.  _
That's true as I had them written.  This class is inspired by some events going on in my campaign, where one of the countries is being faced with a threat of legendary/country or world destroying proportions.  I got stuck figuring out how to say "Defend country from terrible legendary foe" without making a reference to legendary foes that probably don't exist in other people's campaigns.

_ The binding of the land to the lord is very nice, but needs more strict definition. _
All I can say is it made sense to me when I wrote it.   Let me try and be more clear: any condition or non-hitpoint damage the Lord suffers will be felt by the Land, who must resist it as the Lord does.
That means if the Lord of the Land is targeted by a Bestow Curse spell and fails their saving throw, every other plant, animal, and person in the Land will be cursed, just like the Lord.  (-4 to all actions or -6 to an ability, etc.)  When the Lord recieves the Remove Curse spell, the entire land has the curse lifted.
Similarly, the Lord will be affected by any condition (like disease or poison) that affects his land.  If there's a typhoid epidemic, the Lord gets sick too.
This ability bypasses saving throws: the Lord of the Land cannot resist the diseases that affect 1st level commoners with his +37 Fort Save.

_Shouldn’t Defender of the Land stack at each power level?_
I was afraid to do a pure stack with damage resistance.  Eventually someone reaches the point where they have +15/100,  and I refuse to allow +15 weapons in my games.  Leaving the damage resistance intensity at a +1 allows the Lord more power while not making them untouchable.
_Commander of the Land, Seer of the Land, Leader of the Land, Healer of the Land, and Traveler of the Land all need to be more closely tied to power level too, but they’re great ideas._
I'm pleased you enjoyed them.
I'm not sure quite how to tie them to the power level of the character or the class more than they are already with the stacking.  

_I also think the noble should have a class skill list like the aristocrat or fighter. _
Oddly enough, those are the two skill lists I have altered most greatly in my game.
The aristocrat has an amazing number of skills and skill points: the fighter has ridiculously few.
While I won't digress on those classes, suffice it to say the skill list was built to reflect a Lord actively focused on improving their Land, not practicing fighting skills or courtly intrigue.

I thank you for your feedback.  I am particularly grateful for the religion comments.  I have an abnormal set of opinions and an abnormal campaign in that regard, so am in constant need of reality checks as to what other people are doing.
Although the expression "reality check" is probably not exactly right...
Thank you again for your advice.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: Half the batch critiqued ... phew!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Blade of God – I like the idea, but the requirements seem a bit steep at first glance and I disfavor the Str requirement. The player would have to be very careful and know very early that the legendary class was the goal sought. I do like the secondary implication of the character being a lawful good fighter until level 4 (Weapon Specialization) and then being inducted into a holy order (Paladin for Knowledge (religion) and turn undead probably, as a cleric would have to be 11th level (and Ftr 4) to meet the BAB requirement). The second quest is a bit hokey and doesn’t allow for campaign worlds in which deities have no avatar—most published avatars would kill a high-level character in a few rounds. The powers are very good, excepting Awareness of God which could just be Blindsight 10’ per power level, plus detect good or evil (as appropriate) at will. *



Ok, this one's mine.  Now, I didn't consider deities not having avatars.  Further, it was my thought that the DM would control the avatar, with a goal of not necessarily killing the character, but making sure the character has the martial prowess of being worthy of being called a Blade.

As for Awareness of God, the character gets to choose, up to their power level, a number of abilities in their.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 23, 2002)

Shadeus said:
			
		

> * Blade of God  - In general, I wasn't clear exactly what they feel for this legendary class was.  I didn't understand why strength was a requirement, although it must be tied to the ability bonus to Strength.  I thought some of the abilities were a bit overboard.  Critical Attack and Dancing Attack are a bit too powerful, IMO.  I also noticed in the Aura of Gods ability, that they receive turning enhancement, although being able to turn isn't a requirement to be this legend.  Same with the extra smiting.  Sorry, this one didn't sit right with me.*



I had a high Str due to the damage potential.

I have being able to turn as part of the requirements in the "Special" section.

As for smiting, I said "additional".  To me, if you don't have, you now get it; if you already have it, you get more.

PS: I'm not trying to be rude or condescending in my replies with this, or any, reviews of my classes, just trying to be consise.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: More critiques and fun...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *The Ranged Huntsman is another good ranger class (we seem to like rangers and monks in this contest). Of course, the Huntsman must be at least a 4th-level fighter to meet the Feat requirements. (Paul did a good job with his prerequisites BTW, probably the best in the group—even if I dislike requirements of 18 stat scores.) In the first quest it seems unclear to me whether or not just one of these acts is required – if so, it’s too easy. If the Huntsman can use the healing herbs of nature to mystically heal, shouldn’t he be required to have Profession (herbalist) and the Heal skill at a certain level? I also think that Improved Far Shot would have been enough range-affecting powers. Improved Rapid shot is good and a lot like what I recommended for the Deadeye Archer. I like that such a character is especially deadly to his favored enemies, but these powers seem a bit too powerful … they could be scaled back a bit.*



As for the first set of quests, I meant more than one of those (hint: all), plus some more of the DMs devising...sorry about not being more clear.

I hadn't thought of adding Profession (herbalist) or Heal as prereqs.  Will edit to add.

How would you recommend scaling back the Favored Enemy abilities?


----------



## Shadeus (Jul 23, 2002)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *
> I had a high Str due to the damage potential.
> 
> I have being able to turn as part of the requirements in the "Special" section.
> ...




Don't worry about it.  It's hard to critique something properly and still convey your good intensions.  But its understood.

Hmm, failed spot check on the turn req.  Sorry about that kingpaul.


----------



## Khur (Jul 23, 2002)

*Paul's answers...*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> * Ok, this one's mine.  Now, I didn't consider deities not having avatars.  Further, it was my thought that the DM would control the avatar, with a goal of not necessarily killing the character....
> 
> As for Awareness of God, the character gets to choose, up to their power level, a number of abilities.... *



 Actually, even if a deity doesn't have an avatar, perhaps a powerful celestial could manifest to test the character, eh? If the goal of the manifested divinity is not to kill the character, but test, that should have been more clear in the text. I like that BTW.

I understood Awareness of God, but I thought that the list was a bit mismatched. Why would someone choose Low-light and Darkvision, when darkvision essentially gives you the effects of Low-light and then the ability to see B&W in total darkness?

My suggestion merely asserted that the power could be simplified and made to do everything listed there via making the ability do the following:

The Blade gains Blindsight at, perhaps, 5-20 feet per power level (the Blindsight feat grants 5’), whichever you feel is not too powerful. Great for those dark parts of nether planes when nasties can sneak up on you.

Further, depending on the Blade’s alignment, he or she gains the ability to detect good *or* detect evil at will. Perhaps, the detection can be automatic within a certain radius, especially if the character already possesses detect evil at will. The power might grant detect evil at will and automatically within 10’ per power level. The “automatic” part is just the presence of evil somewhere nearby and, perhaps, it’s general power level. This makes a great storytelling device for the DM. _”Sir Lamorak smells the fetid breath of wickedness here….”_


			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> * Re Ranged Huntsman, Khur said: I like that such a character is especially deadly to his favored enemies, but these powers seem a bit too powerful … they could be scaled back a bit.
> 
> Paul asked: How would you recommend scaling back the Favored Enemy abilities? *



The two powers listed seem to do an awful lot of damage, especially if stacked. I’d probably limit them to uses per day. This can seem a bit cheesy, but WotC does it all the time in Prestige Classes with such abilities.

_Legendary Favored Enemy Critical Strike_ could increase the critical damage multiplier by one per power level and still allow this damage to apply to those normally immune to criticals. Perhaps this ability can allow the Huntsman to do ranged deathblows (see the Assassin in the DMG)! Then call it Death to All Enemies or something flashy. 

Perhaps, for _Legendary Favored Enemy Strike_ you could require flanking like a sneak attack and clearly state that this damage is not multiplied by criticals. If that seems overly weak (considering Rog/Asn sneak attacks) you could add the ability to do Crippling Strikes (the attacks do 1d4 Str, Dex, or Con (player choice) damage as well as normal damage). You could make the damage ability damage altogether, 1d4 per power level. 5d4 ability damage can be pretty heinous, but knowledge of Favored Enemies certainly would give the character the know-how for such a thing. Maybe then the name could be Hamstring the Hated or Precision Piercing.  Of course, enemies immune to criticals might be deemed immune to the ability damage as well. (i.e. You cannot do Con damage to an undead creature.)

These are just rapid-fire ideas, but I think they might work given a little tweaking. And the ability damage has a precedent in existing Prestige Classes.

Hope it helps!


----------



## Khur (Jul 23, 2002)

*The last few!*

*The Messiah* has a bold name, especially given that D&D is evil.   I like the concept even though, being an armchair philosopher and theologian myself, I have some qualms with the execution. The requirements are too easy, even ignoring d20 Dwarf’s revelations. The first two quests' misuse of pronouns leads to some confusing writing that I can’t translate, so I can’t make much of a statement. The general ideas that I do get seem good. 

**get’s up on soapbox**

The Inner Spark quest is one I have great qualms with, since most of the legendary historic figures of Earthly religions did not find their Self through asceticism (self denial and mortification for religious purpose). In fact, Buddha (Guatma Siddharta) turned from that path directly and relied upon mere meditation. While he did renounce his inheritance, abandon his wife, and give up worldly goods, he found that the path of the ascetic to be one that merely destroys the body. He meditated under a Bo tree and there faced trials. Mara (an “evil” deity (or demon) of the world’s illusions) sent tricks of worldly delights, such as beautiful women, as well as attacking demons. Still Buddha meditated. Mara flung a discus of fire at Buddha, but it turned into a canopy of flowers. Finally, there was a storm, but Muchalinda, king of the Nagas, protected Guatma from it. The enlightened Guatma then had a choice to leave the world for Nirvana, or stay in the world to help save it (Mara encouraged Buddha to the former, Brahma to the latter). The most important point here is that Guatma reached enlightenment through meditation, not hallucinations brought on by hunger. This can easily be translated into game encounters and trials, which I’ll do if requested. This story resembles Jesus’ temptation in the desert, although that story is one of fasting—but Jesus was not an “inner spark” messiah.

**get’s down off soapbox**

I think that a messiah most certainly should have the Sense Motive skill as a class skill. Convert Followers is cool in concept, but changing warrior levels to monk levels is a bit extreme. Further, most similar “monks” in the real world fit the adept class more than monks. False Religion truly rocks, but needs more definition, unless the intent was for the Messiah to be able to cancel such magics automatically. Keep in mind, also that many wise men of the past were able to cancel arcane magic as well (Moses vs the pharaoh’s magicians). Holy Words is another good concept. Perform Miracles works for me, though perhaps the effects requiring XP expenditure should be disallowed. Unmatched Resolve might need a higher bonus. I like Write the Book too, but it seems it should be Write The Book. 

*The One* is well executed, but I don’t like that the saves are all high, especially considering the Fortress of the Self ability. I must say, that the class is fun, though I’ve never seen the movie. Sorry I don’t have much to say. The class is good, but that it’s based on an existing idea, and therefore much easier to write, makes comment less appropriate. I would use this class for a diversion from regular play.

* The Prophet* had me from the introduction … unfortunately it appears to be a cleric legendary class and not one for Fighters, Rangers, Paladins , and Monks. (Paladins cannot cast 7th-level spells.) Isn’t that outside the rules of the contest? Regardless, I like the class. I would have included all Knowledge skills as class skills as well as Sense Motive, while Animal Empathy seems a strange addition to the list. Animal Form seems out of place in theme, even if it fits with the class in tales -- perhaps give access to travel spells somehow. Aura of Command should raise the DC by +2 per power level, like the spell focus feat. Yes, I realize this means +10 to DC at 5th-level – which means a Prophet with 18 stat for casting gets DC 20 + 4 + spell level for enchantment spells – very legendary indeed. I realize that 100 feet for Aura of the Divine is good for game balance, but I’d have liked to see the range be visual – as long as allies can see the prophet. 

**get’s up on soapbox**

Oracle is really nice, but falls into the same hole as most D&D divination: fear of giving out information. Make your players understand that the future is not set, but flowing and malleable depending on the actions of those in the world. Oracular vision sees time from the standpoint of, “As things stand NOW, what will the future be?” Diviners, ancient and modern, take the flexibility of time for granted. If your players understand this, they will know that divination can help, but can never be utterly relied upon. Arcane language is another good solution – telling the whole truth in such a way that the characters must figure it out and may only “get it” in hindsight.

**get’s down off soapbox**

Why would you include aligned effects  (evil, chaos) in a list of abilities? Order of God is a good power, but you need more options because some prophets could not choose certain aligned abilities. Expand the list to include other “word” spells as options. I like Overpowering Faith, and the limit you impose on it (a ready action). I also like the other two abilities in the class – very tasty. 

Great work all! Lotsa fun to read.

And we’re done ….


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Blade of God*



			
				RedCliff said:
			
		

> *Blade of God: Sort of a super paladin.*



I had envisioned that Paladins could be of this, but I didn't want to limit it to only Paladins.



> *I liked the quests as a base concept, especially the first one.  I don't really see it as a tried and true legendary feat to make it past scholarly debates, but it's a nice touch that the church isn't willing to simply chuck away valuable members of their establishment simply because they think they might have had a calling.  Establishing the validity of the call, and the worthiness of the recipient is a neat idea.
> 
> I think the trials should be broken out more though.  Any DM is free to invent his own; that's a given.  Still, I would have liked to see a few more bulleted points.  Make recovering an artifact or lost site a quest.  Make military service against religious enemies a separate quest.
> 
> And while I like the idea of serving as an acolyte to teach humility, I wonder about the playability of it.  It's a solid story idea, but how many people want their hard earned prestige stripped away so they can spend a year of game time slopping pig troughs or collecting alms.  I realize you can skip over it, but doing that takes away the emphasis of it all.  And it seems to me that adventuring during that time would violate the spirit of the quest as well.  It's not impossible to deal with, but it might prove difficult.*



I included the first quest bullet with examples.  I included some that I thought would be good ones that the DM could use, but I didn't want to limit the DM's imagination.  Personally, I like the religious debate and serving as an acolyte, as it shows that the character has a true understanding of the deity they serve and the humility to do it.



> *As to the quest of fighting the avatar, I like it in concept, but I think that fighting your own god's avatar might not quite be right. What about hunting down the avatar or high priest of an enemy deity.  Besting either of those would be sure to win the warrior a special place in the patron deity's heart.*



Y'know, going after an enemy avatar never occurred to me.  It makes as much sense as having your own deity's avatar testing you.



> *As for the requirements, they look pretty solid overall.  I question weapon specialization though.  I know this is a fighter based legendary class, but with the hard religious bent of it, this class seems made for paladins.  With the restriction on paladin multi-classing though, unless the poor holy warrior didn't receive his call to paladinhood until after four levels of fighter, he's doomed to be denied this special calling from his deity. Seems a bit harsh I think.  And I'm not sure what the reason is for limiting this class to followers of deities with bladed weapons. If Blade of God can easily become Blade of Heronius, then couldn't it also become Cudgel of Cuthbert?*



I was thinking that the character's order might allow fighters and paladins to freely multi-class.  The FRCS has several orders that allow both monks and paladins to freely multi-class, so the idea is out there to be used.

Quite honestly, I had the bladed weapon restriction mainly because I couldn't think up a name that implied what I wanted besides Blade.



> *Critical Attack is deadly in the extreme, and perhaps a bit powerful.  Perhaps limiting this to a number of times per day equal to the power level, or requiring the use of one of the warriors turn attempts, or smite attempts, might bring it in line.  I like the idea of the deity being able to grant its chosen phenominal ability with its chosen weapon, but even a +3 to the threat range of a weapon for every strike, all the time, especially considering that Improved Critical is already a requirement, would risk every strike being a threat.  Calling on another divine ability, like a smite or a turn attempt, would invoke the idea of divine aid more strongly as well (and would make Smite of God all the more important as well).*



I like the recommendation of using either turning attempts or smite attempts to power this ability.



> *Dancing Attack is the last of the big guns.  Doubling the number of attacks is amazingly powerful (I assume the BAB for that round would be something like +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3).  Ouch.  And that's over multiple rounds.  I think with very little modification though, this could really work.  Instead of doubling the number of attacks, why not try something like what WotC set up for their prestige class, the Tempest?  In that, you gain more and more attacks per round, but continually lose 5 points per attack.  So instead of the attack scheme above, the BAB would be +13/+8/+3/-2/-7/-12.  Harsh, yes, but that's only base attack.  Strength modifiers still apply, as do weapon focus, magical bonuses, etc.  And that makes Strength of God all the more useful as well.*



Its over multiple rounds, true.  However, you only can use it for the power level.  I thought that was a decent limiting factor.  Yes, the warrior types would have good attacks (especially if they have the Two-Weapon fighting feats).  I thought that this was a good ability that a deity could grant one of its chosen.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 24, 2002)

*winner announced*

Just out of curiousity, when will the winners be announced?  I'm burning to know if one of mine was chosen...as I'm sure the other competitors are.


----------



## reddist (Jul 24, 2002)

*The One feedback*

Khur said:
*The One is well executed, but I don’t like that the saves are all high, especially considering the Fortress of the Self ability. *

Doh.  I was thinking Monk saves (stuck in the "Jet Li is an insane whirling dervish of fists and feet" mindset) but I should have made Will the low one.  

I did think it was fun, and I had fun writing it.  I think it'd be a fun little diversion, and might make for some nasty NPC villains if your PCs have taken to plane-hopping.  Won't THEY be surprised.

Many thanks for your thoughts.  

-Reddist


----------



## reddist (Jul 24, 2002)

*Alrighty, Dwarf!*

So talk!  Spill yer beans!  Give up the goods!

What did the folks at FFG think of these?

-Reddist


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 24, 2002)

*Winners!*

Ok, here are the 10 winners of the contest, in no particular order. I don't have time right now to comment on each, but I'll just say I'm glad to see that the classes are generating some excitement!

Dwarven Forgemaster
Green Warden
Warrior of the Broken Wake
The King's Warden
The Maitre d'Escrime
The Brawler
Storm
Neclord
Elf Lord
The True King

Congratulations to all the winners! Once Morrus sends us your contact information we'll send out your prizes!

A big thanks to Morrus for hosting the contest, he rocks!!!


----------



## Shadeus (Jul 24, 2002)

Thanks FFG.  It was a fun contest.  Good luck with the books.


----------



## Khur (Jul 24, 2002)

*Sweet!*

The *Green Warden* was mine!

Congrats to the other winners and a tipped hat to all the great contestants. After reading so many good entries, I wondered if mine would be selected.

What does everyone (including Morrus and Wil and FFG) think about editing these so they meet official FFG standards and doing a little book for EN World and FFG. We could design and illustrate it too – I have the ability (and desire) to do some of the work. I think it would be worthwhile, even if we give the compilation away. Plus it’d be a great portfolio (writing and/or art) piece for those involved.

I've been editing the Green Warden based on the revelations here already.

It doesn’t have to be limited to the 10 winners either. Most of these entries have enough creamy goodness in them to be made into something.

What d’ya think?

I’ve put the link to my site back in my profile, so people can check out my design work to decide if I’m worthy of helping out on the above idea. (Just click www beow my post!)


----------



## Krug (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Sweet!*

A netbook of Legendary Classes? Sounds cool!


----------



## RedCliff (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Sweet*

I'd be all over editing the entries and creating a web book. I wasn't particularly happy with one of them, since I ran out of time and didn't get to tweak the language and abilities as much as I thought was needed (the Storm), and the feedback I got for the Warrior of the Broken Wake was excellent I thought.  I'd love the chance to make it better.

And more than that, I'd love the chance to get my hands on a collection of legendary classes.  I think some of the ones posted here were really cool.


----------



## dreamthief (Jul 25, 2002)

Well they're definitely much more interesting than the Epic class extensions.


----------



## RedCliff (Jul 25, 2002)

dreamthief said:
			
		

> *Well they're definitely much more interesting than the Epic class extensions.  *




Yeah. I saw another thread about that elsewhere on the boards here. Most people seem to agree that the "same, just more of it" approach of the epic book was far from inspiring. Having just received it yesterday, a cursory look through seems to support that.

Legendary classes, with the inherant stories built into them, feel much more epic. When I first heard about these I thought they might be a good seguay into the epic levels, but now I'm thinking the other way around. 

Epic legends. It sounds redundant.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: Winners!*



			
				d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Ok, here are the 10 winners of the contest, in no particular order. I don't have time right now to comment on each, but I'll just say I'm glad to see that the classes are generating some excitement!*



Oh well, neither of mind made it.  When you do comment, are you just going to comment on the winners, or will you comment on all submissions?


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: Sweet!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *What does everyone (including Morrus and Wil and FFG) think about editing these so they meet official FFG standards and doing a little book for EN World and FFG. We could design and illustrate it too – I have the ability (and desire) to do some of the work. I think it would be worthwhile, even if we give the compilation away. Plus it’d be a great portfolio (writing and/or art) piece for those involved.
> 
> I've been editing the Green Warden based on the revelations here already.
> 
> ...



I like the idea.  I was planning on submitting revised versions of my Blade of God and Ranged Huntsman to the FaNCC's Netbook of Classes...but an ENWorld booklet would be cool as well.

Thanks to those who did reviews on the classes, but I'm highly curious to see what FFG thought of them.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 25, 2002)

RedCliff said:
			
		

> *Yeah. I saw another thread about that elsewhere on the boards here. Most people seem to agree that the "same, just more of it" approach of the epic book was far from inspiring. Having just received it yesterday, a cursory look through seems to support that.*



I just got mine as well, and I zipped through it last night.  Unfortunately, I have to agree that the Epic Classes weren't to inspiring.  I did like the spell seed idea, and some of the feats were pretty cool.


----------



## Khur (Jul 25, 2002)

*The Neclord?*

I thought this guy was fairly cool in concept, but how exactly does he (or the necromancer in question) get 500 undead to control? The HD limit for undead is much smaller than that, even if one combines divine and arcane classes and takes the True Necromancer prestige class from _Tome and Blood_.

Just wondering?


----------



## Spiff (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: The Neclord?*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I thought this guy was fairly cool in concept, but how exactly does he (or the necromancer in question) get 500 undead to control? The HD limit for undead is much smaller than that, even if one combines divine and arcane classes and takes the True Necromancer prestige class from Tome and Blood.
> *




Well, to be honest, the "500" was just an arbitrary number, since I thought that was a sizable attack force, without really thinking of the limit on the _Animate Dead_ spell.  However, to answer your question, a little background on what I think a Necropolis (at least in my campaigns) is.

The (or a, if there are multiple) Necropolis is just a big ol' city of undead, undead worshippers, and undead makers.  It was bad judgment of me to just say *A* necromancer (although, I guess you can just have the single necromancer that the Neclord directly serves), but there can easily be a coven of high-level (around level 15, I would picture) necromancers ruling the city, as well as a good amount of moderate level clerics and wizards about the city.  The necropolis mindset I was in was drawn from necropolis's such as those found in Mage Knight, Heroes of Might and Magic, and, to a lesser extent, Neil Gaiman's Sandman.

Also, for the Necropolis (or any necromancer type characters, for that matter) I would allow the Leadership feat to be applied to undead followers (and maybe even undead cohorts).

Perhaps a little backstory to the site of the Necropolis can also explain the exorbinant (I pictured thousands) of undead.  Perhaps the avatar of a god was slain at the site the Necropolis was built on, and such a profane act allowed the powers of necromancy magic to fluorish, along with drawing a large amount of necromancers.

Hope that answered your question (lest I use some jedi mind trick  ).

I also know that there were a couple of bugs that I'd fix up if I had a chance to revise the class, such as increasing the aforementioned bonus of Resist Negative Energy to +2/power level, and add in a limit to the number of undead you can create with Denying Death's Embrace.

Congratulations to the other winners!  I hope to utilize some of these classes in my campaigns.


----------



## Sheridan (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: Sweet!*

Congratulations to all the winners !

I like the idea of the NetBook of Legendary Classes, so add one more tick to the "yes" column !

*Sheridan


----------



## Brian W (Jul 25, 2002)

*More contests*

Well.... do you guys want to see FFG host a similar contest to this for the arcane spellcasting classes?  If we were to do it again, we'd probably host it over on our web site, but if we keep this going for Path of Magic, Faith, and Shadow, we can definately compile them all into a downloadable format -- adding to it each time we have a new contest (and that way we keep doling out the free books   )


----------



## Khur (Jul 25, 2002)

*Necropolis lives on...*



			
				Spiff said:
			
		

> *Also, for the Necropolis (or any necromancer type characters, for that matter) I would allow the Leadership feat to be applied to undead followers (and maybe even undead cohorts).*



 Perhaps there is room for another feat that modifies the number of undead controlled. Also, consider having a Neclord ability that grants the villain control over hordes of mindless undead. Use of the Leadership feat (modified of course) is a great idea. This also gives room for “lesser” prestige classes that are the Neclords officers in the army of undeath. You might consider devising a level equivalency chart for undead cohorts in relation to the Leadership feat. Fitting, also, would be a similar Necromancer King legendary class!

Oh, and why not design a sample Necropolis and its important necropolitans? If it’s good, get it published in a magazine and let us know about it, or be real generous and post it where we can have it.

Remember that many intelligent undead can control a number of lesser undead. If the intelligent undead serve the Necromancer Kings, then the “thousands of Undead” problem ain’t a problem. Of course, aspecting the area to death and (perhaps) a permanent _unhallow_ effect is s good idea too.

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## reddist (Jul 25, 2002)

*More FFG contest goodness!*

I'm always happy to get a free book or two

Another contest I'd also be interested in is to write up some LCs for inclusion in the upcoming books.  Since we have a clearer idea of what we're doing, why not leave space for one "guest" LC per book (that isn't finished yet.... I know some of them are completed already) and hold a contest here to see if one of us can fill it?  FFG could decide if publication, credit, and a comp copy is prize enough, or if you wanted to include freelancer's fees as well  The runners up could get a comp copy, too.

Just a thought... I know the Dwarf had mentioned some of the books were complete, but hinted that such contest might be possible for ones still in the works.

I've got a mage and a rogue LC written up already.... just tell me where to send them

-Reddist


----------



## reddist (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: Necropolis lives on...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> * Perhaps there is room for another feat that modifies the number of undead controlled.  *




Check out my necromancy article in Dragon #298  Undead Legion and Greater Undead Legion both increase the amount of undead a necromancer can control.  Maybe you can use them as a base for LC class abilities.

-Reddist


----------



## Khur (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: More contests*



			
				Brian W said:
			
		

> *Well.... do you guys want to see FFG host a similar contest to this for the arcane spellcasting classes?*



Heck yeah! Just let us know! I already have ideas for legendary spell users. Rogues are something I'd have to think on, but I'm sure I could cook up a thing or three.

I agree with Reddist that it would be great if the team at FFG left room for one (or more) great classes to possibly get into the books that aren't done. (Of course, freelance fees and such would have to be worked out.) 

Plus, with the great discussion here, many of us have honed our skillz a bit and might produce something that surprises you. (I hope we did already.)

I’m sure we all enjoyed this contest and would love to participate in more, regardless of the policy.

Thanks FFG!


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: Necropolis lives on...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> * Perhaps there is room for another feat that modifies the number of undead controlled. Also, consider having a Neclord ability that grants the villain control over hordes of mindless undead. Use of the Leadership feat (modified of course) is a great idea. This also gives room for “lesser” prestige classes that are the Neclords officers in the army of undeath. You might consider devising a level equivalency chart for undead cohorts in relation to the Leadership feat. Fitting, also, would be a similar Necromancer King legendary class!
> *




Just a little preview of Path of Magic. The "Legions of the Dead" legendary ability from our very own Death Lord LgC. 

Legions of the Dead: The character gains an additional group of undead followers that do not count against his normal Leadership limit. For each power level, the character gains the listed number of followers per level for his current Leadership score, except these followers are undead and use their Challenge Rating instead of  their level to determine if they are appropriate. It takes one day per power level to gather these undead, as the character sends out a call to the undead nearest to his location. The character can replace slain undead followers at a rate of 10 per day using this method.


----------



## Khur (Jul 25, 2002)

*LC Netbook*

Since many people seem keen on the Netbook idea, let's do it. 

Which classes do we have permission to use? 

The way I see it is we need to edit these puppies so they work real smooth and then, at least, typeset them. We should also be clear about what OGC in the work and what's not and who retains which rights. (I see a big legal section at the end!) I submit the Green Warden, though I’d like to retain my rights to the class.

I volunteer for layout, some editing work, and some art. I'll need help though.

Who wants to help and who wants to do what? Should we start another thread somewhere else?



[EDIT]
Reddist!

I have yer real name now! Nice article BTW!


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: LC Netbook*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Since many people seem keen on the Netbook idea, let's do it.
> 
> Which classes do we have permission to use?*



Well, I attached the OGL to the end of mine, so they're already designated OGC (since I didn't declare any PI...at leasts that my understanding of said things...IANAL).

Regardless, Blade of God and Ranged Huntsman are available.


----------



## reddist (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: LC Netbook*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *[EDIT]
> Reddist!
> 
> I have yer real name now! Nice article BTW! *




Curses!  I shall have to send a legion of my zombie renders after you!  Thanks, though

I'd love to see this stuff in a netbook (hosted where? FFG? Here?), and I'd glady provide my two (if  I make some changes on The One to make it less of an immediate derivation.)

I can't draw or illustrate, but I'm a fairly decent editor (I keep getting jobs at least,) and I can make them look pretty with some formatting.

Sounds like Khur has nominated himself as team leader  Let me know if you need anything!

-Reddist


----------



## Khur (Jul 25, 2002)

*LC Netbook*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *Curses!  I shall have to send a legion of my zombie renders after you!  Thanks, though
> 
> Sounds like Khur has nominated himself as team leader  Let me know if you need anything!*



 I have the Improved Turning feat ... fair warning. 

I don't really want to be leader, I'm just enthusiastic about putting a razor edge on these classes so FFG approves of them as pseudo- to wholly-official stuff. If that makes me leader, then OK.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: LC Netbook*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I don't really want to be leader, I'm just enthusiastic about putting a razor edge on these classes so FFG approves of them as pseudo- to wholly-official stuff. If that makes me leader, then OK.
> 
> *



I hereby nominate Khur to be chief cook and bottle washer for the Netbook of Legendary Classes.  Do I have a second?


----------



## Brian W (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: Re: LC Netbook*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'd love to see this stuff in a netbook (hosted where? FFG? Here?),
> 
> -Reddist *




Well, all of these Legendary Classes, on the EN World contest, are Morrus' to dispense as he wishes 

What FFG is likely to do, is set up a contest over on our site, and then host all of those entries on our pages.  We would include everything from every contest we hosted on our site.

I'll have to talk to Wil and Greg and see whether getting some contest Legendary Classes in the books is a possibility.  Path of Magic is already at the printer (and scheduled to be released at GenCon), but there's still two more!


----------



## Khur (Jul 27, 2002)

*Uh...*

Anyone out there? 

Which classes can we use (besides the already offered) to make a netbook? 

Does Morrus object, support, or not care?

Would FFG like to see us do this?

Just wondering....


----------



## Morrus (Jul 27, 2002)

Well, I've posted them on my resources page - http://www.d20reviews.com/resource.htm

I think a netbook would be a great idea.  I'll be glad to host it if you want, or to just tell everyone about it if someone else wants to host it.


----------



## Yuan-Ti (Jul 27, 2002)

Well, the Elf Lord was my creation. It's good to be a winner.  

Thanks for the comments and critiques on the class. I really had fun building it. I think the Legendary Class is a fantastic idea. Better than prestige classes in some ways--more interesting than most, for example. 

I have to agree with some of the critiques about the Elf Lord. I was really concerned with overpowering it. The immortality power, for example. I wanted there to be no impact to aging with the class if someone took that ability at power level one, but I was troubled by the fact that that is the very last ability a monk receives regarding aging, disease, etc. And since the power was modeled on the monk class' various abilities to resist disease and aging... If I were to rewrite the class (and I may ask Morrus to post a revision later), I would definitely incorporate some of these critiques. As I said, though, I was really concerend with overpowering it, and maybe I underpowered it instead. 

Well, anyway, in case anyone did not notice, this class was inspired by Tolkien's elf lords. 

Okay, I am in the process of moving from one continent to another (a process which will take 4-5 weeks), so I have to limit my online time. When I have more time and leisure, I look forward to getting a careful look at everyone's classes. 

And congrats to the other winners!


----------



## reddist (Jul 27, 2002)

*netbook stuff*

Right then....

I suggest those of us who are going to make changes to our LgCs based on feedback here do so and send in new versions (v2.0!) to Morrus or Khur.  I know I made changes on mine here at home, but I have not sent in any updates.

Maybe Khur.  If we send them to Khur, he can parse them out to those of us willing to edit, and figure out what art or illustrations he wants to go with what, and divvy up what work he thinks needs to be done.  I'll gladly volunteer for editing or formatting (they should probably all look similar, as far as formatting goes) but my artwork smells of rancid goat cheese.

I'd also suggest that King Paul stand over Khur's shoulder and whisper secrets of NetBook Goodness in his ear, seeing as KP is one of our resident NetBook Gurus (and a much appreciated one at that.)

Perhaps Khur has found a new calling 

Anyhoo, just my uneducated suggestions.  Does anyone with some actual experience putting a NetBook together have better ideas?

-Reddist


----------



## RedCliff (Jul 28, 2002)

Working on revisions now.  I'll toss in the Storm and the Warrior of the Broken Wake.

Should we start deciding on some deadlines or a timetable of sorts?


----------



## Khur (Jul 28, 2002)

*List of LgCs for the netbook...*

Okay,

I don't want to use anyone's class without their expressed permission. Besides, all of them need editing. Right now I'm sure we have permission to use the following classes from this contest:

Storm
Warrior of the Broken Wake
Blade of God
Ranged Huntsman
The Brawler
The One
Green Warden

Any additions to this list? Those who wish to, send me a v2.0 of your LgC. If Morrus is willing, we'll post them here (instead?) for more suggestions and/or team editing.

As for timetable, lets try to limit it to as short as possible while still accomplishing other tasks we may have.

Thanks!


----------



## dreamthief (Jul 28, 2002)

You might want to open up the 'Netbook' for more/newer entries. It all sounds pretty cool to me. I have a couple of ideas I might just do up and I think more people would contribute if they knew about it.


----------



## Khur (Jul 29, 2002)

*Hmmmm ...*

It's not up to me about new entries, but I'm on the fence about it. On the one hand it's a cool idea to get more LgCs. On the other hand I'd just like to see the good ones from this contest honed and presented nicely. Further, the work involved gets much bigger if we take more entries.

I'll have to sleep on it. Others can voice their opinions.


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 29, 2002)

Firstly congrats to all the other winners and thanks to anyone who took the time to read and comment on my submissions...

Also thanks to FFG and Morrus... 

The King's Warden and The Maitre d'Escrime were my creations and I have taken on board what has been said about them to date... I haven't had a chance to edit them at all yet, but I'll get to it one day, I'm sure...

I'd be honoured to have them in a Netbook, if they're wanted for inclusion... I'm also happy to help out with the preparation of such a book - although please don't ask me for art work... unless you like the idea of stick-figure Legendary Class pictures... 

I hope the Netbook idea gets off the ground... these Legendary Classes are too cool to not make them more freely available to gamers everywhere...

Once again, congratulations to the winners...


----------



## Yuan-Ti (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: List of LgCs for the netbook...*

You can add Elf Lord to the list (maybe under a new title... not sure, but someone did say it was boring). I don't have a lot of time right now, but email me about a deadline for getting a v2.0 out to you. All my rulebooks are packed away, but... Anyway, you can find my email through the link under my post.





			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Okay,
> 
> I don't want to use anyone's class without their expressed permission. Besides, all of them need editing. Right now I'm sure we have permission to use the following classes from this contest:
> 
> ...


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: netbook stuff*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *I'd also suggest that King Paul stand over Khur's shoulder and whisper secrets of NetBook Goodness in his ear, seeing as KP is one of our resident NetBook Gurus (and a much appreciated one at that.)*



::chuckle::

Alright, for those who may not be in the know, the Fantasy Netbook Community Council (FaNCC) is a group of fans who collect our creative juices into various netbooks for PDF publications.  We have do this for free.  The most known books are Feats, Classes and Magical Treasures.  Each team has a leader, and is supported by at least 2 other team members.  The team reviews the submissions, and suggests to the author in ways to improve their idea.

When we accept submission, we use a Permission Agreement (PA).  We use this because we don't want to own the author's work...we think the author should own it.  However, the PA is a written agreement between the author and the FaNCC that gives us permission for using your work.  We also have an Art PA, so that we can use people's artwork.

Unfortunately, we are having web problems again, and our main site is down.

If anyone has any other questions, they can drop me a line, or go to the FaNCC's Yahoo! Group.


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 30, 2002)

*FFG feedback*

so now that the Netbook idea seems fairly well organised, does anyone know if we can expect some feedback from the crew at FFG...

I guess that from my perspective I'd like to hear something from the people who judged the Classes before I make any significant changes to what I submitted as I try to prepare v2.0 for the Netbook...

plus, it'd be great for the authors (especially us non-professionals)  to know what publishers thought of our work...

in the meantime, I'm still very interested in any comments people have to offer about my submissions (King's Warden & Maitre d'Escrime)...


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 30, 2002)

*Re: FFG feedback*



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *so now that the Netbook idea seems fairly well organised, does anyone know if we can expect some feedback from the crew at FFG...
> 
> I guess that from my perspective I'd like to hear something from the people who judged the Classes before I make any significant changes to what I submitted as I try to prepare v2.0 for the Netbook...
> 
> plus, it'd be great for the authors (especially us non-professionals)  to know what publishers thought of our work...*



I also would like to see what the FFG folks thought of the classes.  While the reviews of my two were helpful, as a hopeful freelancer, I'd like to see what the professionals thought.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 30, 2002)

*new thread*

All,

I just opened up a new thread for our revisions and discussions of our revisions.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 30, 2002)

Posted this on the main forum as well.

Just to give you guys a little more insight, I created an exclusive legendary class on our Website in my new Behind the Curtain column, just in time for Gencon. 

I didn't put quests on it, though, so if you have any ideas feel free to post them!


----------



## Khur (Jul 30, 2002)

Legendary Gamer is great, Wil.

We'll have to come up with quests!


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 30, 2002)

As much as I'd like to, I simply don't have the time to comment on each of the classes submitted. If you want to bring it by the booth at Gencon, I'll see what I can do.  I'll be especially talkative if you pick up Path of the Sword and Path of Magic while you're there.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 30, 2002)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *As much as I'd like to, I simply don't have the time to comment on each of the classes submitted. If you want to bring it by the booth at Gencon, I'll see what I can do.  I'll be especially talkative if you pick up Path of the Sword and Path of Magic while you're there.  *



Fair enough.  Could you, and I'm not trying to be pushy, briefly comment on why the winners were chosen?  That'd give us who weren't tapped an idea of where to improve.


----------



## Krug (Jul 30, 2002)

Hey Kingpaul,
My own two coppers. I found the *Blade of God* too generic. Why should all Holy Warriors of their Gods be the same? Shouldn't there be more distinguishing points? It just seemed to be another concept for a Paladin. *Ranged Huntsman* was similarly unexciting.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 31, 2002)

*Bearer of the World's Pain*

*Bearer of the World's Pain*

I like this concept of someone who goes out to try and alleviate the pain of the world.  I agree with the write-up that the person usually goes mad.

*Prereqs*: Granted this is hindsight, but the prereqs are a bit low for a Legendary Class.

*Quests*: I liked this quest idea.  However, as Monk was listed as the most likely class, the DCs are probably a bit low.  A Monk has +8 on all saves by 12th level just from their class.

*God's Mercy*: Interesting ability.  However, I think that







> ...all spells and effects that rely on pain...



should be reworded...otherwise, it makes it sound like their immune to everything, as, I believe, all spells would cause some pain.

*Demonbane*: I like it

*Magic Shall Suffer No More*: Wow!  A possible SR of 25...sign me up.

*No More Shall Suffer*: I like it, but I think millions is a bit steep, as most campaigns are set in medieval-like settings.

*Pain None Shall Feel*: Wow!  A possible DR of 50...sign me up!

*Rest in Peace*: Very cool...but I'm a bit biased...I like religiously oriented stuff...as seen in my 2 submissions.

*That Which Does Not Kill*: eh (as an aside, these legendary bonuses to abilities should probably get standardized names)

*The Cross is Mine*: I think the amount of damage that can be directed at the Bearer is a bit weak.  Only the power level in damage?

*The Last Gift*: Very cool

*Thy Pain Returned*: Ooohh.  No limit on this ability, you can do it each round.  Granted, your not returning much damage, but very cool.

*To Know Pain*: I like it

*World's Toughness*: More permanent hit points...important for this class.


----------



## reddist (Jul 31, 2002)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *I'll be especially talkative if you pick up Path of the Sword and Path of Magic while you're there.  *




Have you already mailed the winner's books out to them?  I can just swing by and pick up mine next week 

Khur -- v2.0 on mine will come to you begining of next week.

Thanks!

-Reddist


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 31, 2002)

*The Brawler*

*The Brawler*

I loved this class...I got a great chucke out of it.

*Prereqs*: Once again, hindsight says they're a bit weak.

*Quests*: These had me laughing, especially the last one







> ...maintaining the title of the Brawler is an ongoing quest....




*Callused Knuckles*: I like it...more subdual damage

*Heavy Fist*: Why rename stunning attack?

*Shrug Off Blows*: Fast healing for subdual damage...tres cool

*Thick Blood*: Seems a bit weak for what it does... maybe +2/power level on Fort saves for poison and alcohol?

*Ground Fighter*: I'm struggling with this one.  I'm not sure if its to weak or not.  I think a +2/power level is a bit much for grapple checks, but +1 seems a bit weak.

*Fearsome Reputation*: Not sure on this one either.  For your normal fighter type, this could top out at 16 or 17, unless they had the Cha magically enhanced.

*Man of the Hour*: I like it

*Iron Jaw*: I like it

*Two-Fisted Wallop*: Wow!  I like it, especially when its maxed out.

I like the notes about the match between 2 Brawlers.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 31, 2002)

*Warrior of the Broken Wake*

*Warrior of the Broken Wake*

Agents of destructions

*Prereqs*: Look fairly good.  However, I think an alignment restriction might be in order.  Most LG characters I've played with wouldn't be into this total destruction...even the Paladins against agents of total chaos.

*Quests*: Intersting concepts.  The only creatures that I'm aware of that have +10 natural armor are dragons.

*Cut the Masses*: Wow!  Applying excess damage to nearby foes.  That would come in handy IMC.

*Irresistible Strike*: Hmmm...basically granting a +2 attack bonus/power level for creatures that have natural armor.

*Crushing Blow*: This ability, maxed out, would reduce wood (hardness 5) and less to a hardness of paper  (hardness 0).  The description mentions stone in it...maybe make 2/power level instead of 1?

*Aggressive Defense*: Oooh...make Sunder attacks on weapons that miss by a margin of abilities power level...nice concept.

*Spellcutting*: The ability to destroy incoming spells...cool

*Feed the Destruction*: Interesting concept...destroy an inanimate object to get a powerful Cleave attack on a living creature.

*Hooking Blow*: Keeping an opponent snared on your weapon...very cool.  However, I think it might need some kind of limit on it.  Perhaps 2 times/power level/day?

*Sever Life*: This ability assumes that the Massive Damage rule is used...I know we don't use it IMC.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 31, 2002)

reddist said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Have you already mailed the winner's books out to them?  I can just swing by and pick up mine next week
> 
> ...





To keep things simple I'll probably just mail them all out. I haven't gotten all of the addresses yet, so unless they come in the next day or so they probably won't go out until after Gencon.


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 1, 2002)

*Deadeye Archer*

*Deadeye Archer*

A very interesting class, similar to my Ranged Huntsman

*Prereqs*: They make sense

*Quests*: I like the slaying of a 







> ...dangerous, mythical beast using his bow as his only weapon...




*Deadly Aim*: I like the legendary bonus to attack, and the limits

*Cool Under Preassure*: Firing without drawing AoO...cool

*Improved Point Blank Shot*: I like the idea of extending the Point Blank range

*Barrage of Arrows*: Very similar to my Improved Rapid Shot ability

*Craft Magical Bows and Arrows*: Interesting ability.  A spellcasting ability without needing to cast spells.

*Ranged Disarm*: Use your arrow to disarm an opponent..very nice

*Wounding Shot*: Another spell-like ability without the spell

*Distant Strike*: Similar to my Improved Distant Strike

My only concern with this class was that most, not all, the abilities didn't have any power level bonuses associated with them.  It was my understanding, and I could be mistaken, that's what made the choices so hard.  With most of these abilities, it doesn't matter when you pick'em, you get the same level of use out of them.


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 1, 2002)

*Elf Lord*

*Elf Lord*

Unlike others, I see nothing wrong with this LgC name, and find it rather interesting for an elven character.  My only question is, can you have a Drow Lord?

*Prereqs*: Very solid group for what this class is to do

*Quests*: I thought they were good.  Defend an elven settlement from anihilation, then perform a quest at the behest of an elven leader.

*Legendary Leader*: eh...but then I think any ability to increase a stat is "eh"...yes, even my own.  Its cool, but has not panache.

*Expert Defense*: I like this!  Improve Expertise

*Reveal His Glory*: An interesting use of the _fear_ spell.

*Immortality*: The progession of this ability is cool.  I'd be at a loss of when (not if) to take it.

*Encourage Allies*: An interesting use of the _bless_ spell.

*Armored Lord* and *Magical Strike*: I like these abilities...able to increase their magical armor/weaponry even more by power level...tres cool

*Overcome Death Magic*: An improved ability to withstand death magic


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 1, 2002)

*Tender to the Essential Essence*

*Tender to the Essential Essence*

I like this class...although I'm not sure why.  The entire concept sits right with me.

*Prereqs*:  Looks like this is a multi-classed Ranger and Paladin/Cleric.  However, with the way the class is written, I think non-evil needs to be added (although it is implied with the 







> ...channel positive energy...



 requirement).

*Quests*: I like the idea having to fight your mirror-self, but of a completely opposite alignment.  However, how does this work with True Neutral characters?

*Cultivate Life*: Yum...more hit points

*Sudden Enlightenment*: Neat play on the stunning attack ability.  However, I think the limit of 1/day is a bit steep.

*Sharing the Purity*: Interesting idea.  However, if I'm reading this right, it only works on subdual damage.  If this is true, its not that useful.  IMC, I don't know about others, we hardly use subdual damage

*Infuse the Flesh*: Renamed DR

*Mind, Body & Soul*: Worded a little confusingly, but I think the idea of adding stat bonuses to other areas is interesting

*Forever Growth*: Renamed Fast Healing, but I like the fact that it won't work below 0

*Blinding Presence*: Bonus to AC blus _daylight_?  Where do I sign up?

*Radiant Strike*: Very cool ability


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 1, 2002)

*Maitre d'Escrime*

*Maitre d'Escrime*

A fencing master...very intriguing.  If I play a fighter-type, I usual go for brute-force and ignorance or range...but this is still a cool class.

*Prereqs*: Wow!  The number of feats required is very impressive

*Quests*: I like the idea of having to challenge at least 3 other Maitres

*Lightning Riposte*: Hmmm...I'm not sure if the limit on times/day is really important for this ability.  I like the concept

*Arresting Stop-hit*: Very cool ability.

*Extraordinary Expertise*: I like this

*Agility Training*: eh

*Dedicated Students*: Interesting ability...kind of like Leadership.

*Razor-edge Reactions*: eh

*Critical Precision*: With the table, you'd only want to grab this @ 1st, 3rd or 5th.


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 1, 2002)

*kingpaul's feedback*



> A fencing master...very intriguing. If I play a fighter-type, I usual go for brute-force and ignorance or range...but this is still a cool class.




glad you think so... I've played a mix of fighters in my rpg life but my favourites (especially since 3rd Ed) have been highly dexterous ones... that may have something to do with having been a competitive fencer for about 6 years...

this class was based on one of my coaches from the British Academy of Fencing...

I've nearly finished the edit on this class, but I'm still trying to think of ways that I can tweak Razor-edge Reactions... suggests from the "gallery" are always welcome...

thanx for the feedback/review...


----------



## d20Dwarf (Aug 1, 2002)

What exactly are you looking to tweak on it? Seems like a fine ability to me. In fact, the Great Teacher has the same ability. 

What I would look at is something Paul alluded to, the Critical Precision ability. It is good to give the class real choices at each level, so that would mean changing things up on the table a bit.

Just a suggestion.


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 1, 2002)

*tweaking*



> What exactly are you looking to tweak on it? Seems like a fine ability to me. In fact, the Great Teacher has the same ability.




I assumer the Great Teacher is something in the book... I guess I was hoping to make that particular Ability a little more attractive, but come to think of it so few things bump up your Initiative bonus it's already a good choice...  



> What I would look at is something Paul alluded to, the Critical Precision ability. It is good to give the class real choices at each level, so that would mean changing things up on the table a bit.




This is one of the abilities I was trying to not make too powerful... an increase in threat range and multiplier at each power level seemed excessive to me... at power level 5 you could have a threat range of 13-20 WITHOUT Improved Crit or a Keen weapon... or 7-20 with Improved Crit and a Keen Rapier... a critical hit would work out to 7d6 plus 7 times Str bonus etc... as a DM, I wouldn't allow that in any campaign I run...

*shrug*

I agree that there should be a solid choice at each level, but to keep that ability feasible I thought it best to stagger the increase... a player isn't denied taking it at 2nd or 4th level... it may just mean that a little forward planning is involved...

that said, I am open to suggestions... wouldn't be asking for comments otherwise...


----------



## d20Dwarf (Aug 1, 2002)

Ok, let's brainstorm then. We want the ability to grant some bonuses that would be due to incredibly precise strikes....

so, what else can we do besides increase the threat range and multiplier?

We could add damage, but that seems a bit excessive. A to-hit bonus? Again, almost seems to be stacking with the others....hmmm.

What if we added a 3rd category to the list, one that could change at 2nd and 4th level. Perhaps once per day per power level, the character dealt 1 point of Dexterity damage per power level to his opponent on a successful critical hit? That would go up each level, offering incentive at 2nd and 4th. Clearly 1,3,5 are still better, but there is at least some incentive at 2nd and 4th, especially if you have plans for your other choices.

Anwyay, like I said, just a bit of brainstorm.


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 1, 2002)

*Brainstorming*

 

you've given me a few ideas to work on... replicating some of the more rogue like abilities such as Hamstring or Arterial Strike might be the best way to offer a little something extra at levels 2 & 4...

or something like 1 point of Dex damage per power level at 2nd and 1 point od Str damage per power level at 4th...

I'll play around with these options and see where it takes me...

Thanx for the assist... it is greatly appreciated...

 

now I just have to wait for kingpaul's review of my King's Warden...


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 1, 2002)

*Critical Precision*

After a little thought (emphasis on little), I've got an idea for the Critical Precision ability...


any comments...?


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 1, 2002)

*Dwarven Forgemaster*

*Dwarven Forgemaster*

A dwarven fighter who is also a armor/weapon-smith.  I'm not sure about the d12 HD though.

*Prereqs*:  They look good.  However, I'd put the Special in as a quest.

*Quests*: I like the idea of going before the king and petitioning to become a DF.  The idea of creating a special set of arms/armor is also interesting.  As I said in the prereqs, I'd put the 







> ...save the dwarven way of life.



 as a quest as well, as, to me, it feels better as a quest.

*Iron Health*: eh

*Flesh of Stone*: Of the HP increases of seen so far, this is the weakest one.

*Unforge*: Interesting ability against forged items.

*Mystic Forge Hammer*: Ability to create magic arms/armor without the casting requirement

*Shrug off Pain*: DR..although I think this is weaker than others I've seen

*One with the Earth*: Oooh...a spell to cast

*Tireless Champion*: Hmmm...able to keep going below 0.  However, this ability doesn't increase with power levels.

*Elemental Companion*:  This ability, from the table, should only be taken, if at all, at 1st, 3rd or 5th (no further advantage for 2nd or 4th).  I don't quite like not being able to replace the elemental though.

*Dwarven Hero*: Cool bonuses, but no increase with various power levels.


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 1, 2002)

*Grandmaster of Clouds*

*Grandmaster of Clouds*

An interesting class for Monks.  I like the speed increases, but how does it work when they go back to taking Monk classes?

*Prereqs*: I think they fairly well balanced

*Quests*: They make sense

*Unearthly Agility*: eh

*Blinding Reflexes*: Would be an "eh", but the added Combat Reflexes makes it interesting

*Walk on Clouds*: Ooh...I like this one..._air walk_

*Move with Grace*: Very cool abilities.  Since it doesn't improve with power level, this'd be a definite choice for 1st level

*Move without Boundaries*: Another no brainer for a low level since it doesn't improve.  Permanent _freedom of movement_?

*Light on your Feet*: Cool ability...but I think it'd be better as a feet instead of a LgC ability

*Spring in your Step*: No AoOs for Spring Attack, and it doesn't increase

*Blink of an Eye*: Cool ability, but only viable for 2nd or 4th due to rounding


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 1, 2002)

*Green Warden*

*Green Warden*

An elven ranger class

*Prereqs*: In hindsight, these are a bit weak for a LgC

*Quests*: The first seems a bit too easy, particularly due to the last sentence: 







> ...the aspirant may have any companions he deems worthy.



I'd think limiting the companions in some way would be a good idea.  The second looks good.  Personally, I think I'd force the aspirant to be quiet all the time...force them to have the Silent Spell feat.

*Born Leader*: Bonus on Leadership score..interesting

*Dogged Pursuit*: Ooh, increased abilities on forced marches...could come in rather handy

*Face of Diplomacy*: eh

*None Shall Pass*: Cool ability.  My only question is on the "led" part.  Is there a distance stipulation?  Can my leader be a mile away and will I still have the bonus?

*One With the Land*: Very interesting casting ability

*Tree Shroud*: I like the ability.  However, is it based on character level or power level?

*Wolf Stalk*: Wilderness Lore increases...I like

*Woodland Allies*: I'd take this ability in a heartbeat...but I'd be sore-pressed to hold my patience in waiting until level 5.


----------



## Chromnos (Aug 1, 2002)

Where may I find some good examples of legendary classes floating around to help shake off the cobwebs and get the creative engine running?

-C


----------



## Chromnos (Aug 1, 2002)

Please disregard last.

Closing date July 15. 

Duh.

-C


----------



## d20Dwarf (Aug 1, 2002)

Don't worry, Chromnos, we'll be having another contest very soon on our Website. Keep an eye out for an announcement!


----------



## Chromnos (Aug 1, 2002)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Don't worry, Chromnos, we'll be having another contest very soon on our Website. Keep an eye out for an announcement! *




Yeah!!!!!

-C


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 1, 2002)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Don't worry, Chromnos, we'll be having another contest very soon on our Website. Keep an eye out for an announcement! *



Cool!  Will the announcement be here or at your site?


----------



## d20Dwarf (Aug 1, 2002)

I will post it here, there, and everywhere else possible.


----------



## Khur (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: Green Warden*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Green Warden
> 
> An elven ranger class
> 
> Prereqs: In hindsight, these are a bit weak for a LgC*



 Yep, the prereqs are being redone. Not necessarily just for elves, but it leans that way don't it? 



> *Quests: The first seems a bit too easy, particularly due to the last sentence: I'd think limiting the companions in some way would be a good idea.  The second looks good.  Personally, I think I'd force the aspirant to be quiet all the time...force them to have the Silent Spell feat. *



 Yep, I bumped it up to making contact with three other societies and the companions can't help in the negotiations, they're for protection on the road. I don't know about the Silent Spell part, what do others think? The prereqs do say, of course, that the DM choses a feat to add to the list.



> *Face of Diplomacy: eh*



 The obligatory ability increasing power.



> *None Shall Pass: Cool ability.  My only question is on the "led" part.  Is there a distance stipulation?  Can my leader be a mile away and will I still have the bonus? *



 Changed to: "Cohorts, followers, and allies gain a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls when they can see the green warden." Still tweaking it though, considering the warden is so sneaky.  Probably 30 feet per power level or some such.



> *Tree Shroud: I like the ability.  However, is it based on character level or power level? *



 Both. Some parts are based on character level, others power level. The ability description should make this clear.



> *Woodland Allies: I'd take this ability in a heartbeat...but I'd be sore-pressed to hold my patience in waiting until level 5. *



 That's one thing I love about LgCs. Some people who've read the Green Warden think this ability is useless. Others, such as yourself, like it.

Thanks for the input. It helped!



(EDIT) Did anyone notice the Wild Scout from Silver Marches has home ground too? I'm glad I came up with it before the Marches came out! I'm amazed sometimes...


----------



## Shadeus (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: Deadeye Archer*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Deadeye Archer
> 
> A very interesting class, similar to my Ranged Huntsman
> 
> My only concern with this class was that most, not all, the abilities didn't have any power level bonuses associated with them.  It was my understanding, and I could be mistaken, that's what made the choices so hard.  With most of these abilities, it doesn't matter when you pick'em, you get the same level of use out of them. *




While there isn't a requirement that each ability have power level bonuses, I think I have too many that don't in this LgC.  There are so few that do, its a simple choice to just wait for those until higher power levels.  I would need to re-think a way to modify some of them.

Some quick ideas...

*Cool Under Pressure: *No idea (this is an Epic feat too)
*Imp Point Blank Shot: *keep the +2 to hit/dmg but increase range by 10'/power level
*Ranged Disarm: * no ideas
*Wounding Shot: *maybe wound dmg = 1 hp/power level/round with a limit of 5 times per day.
*Distance Strike:* maybe range penalties are reduced by 2 per power level.  So at power level 5, you can fire 5 increments away with no penalty.  Double ranges still.

Thanks for the feedback kingpaul.


----------



## Chromnos (Aug 1, 2002)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *I will post it here, there, and everywhere else possible.  *




Excellent. Will you still be looking for LgC's or other crunchy bits as well?

-C


----------



## Shadeus (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: Grandmaster of Clouds*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Grandmaster of Clouds
> 
> An interesting class for Monks.  I like the speed increases, but how does it work when they go back to taking Monk classes?
> *



*

They would not increase speed if they gained additional monk levels (since their GMoC speed already exceeds it).  In retrospect, I actually would prefer to have only a maximum of 2 abilities be not dependent on level.  Of the three that are not power-level dependent for this LgC, I would change/remove Spring in your Step.*


----------



## Shadeus (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: Dwarven Forgemaster*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Dwarven Forgemaster
> 
> A dwarven fighter who is also a armor/weapon-smith.  I'm not sure about the d12 HD though.
> 
> ...



*
Hmm, that's not a bad idea moving that to be a quest.  I was actually considering adding a quest to have the candidate wrestle an earth elemental or something like that...some sort of proven mastery over earth itself.  But maybe changing the special to a quest is sufficient.





Flesh of Stone: Of the HP increases of seen so far, this is the weakest one.
		
Click to expand...



I actually toss about this one a lot.  I settled on 5 hp per power level because I felt 25 hit points was the maximum I would be willing to give out.  That combined with a Con increase could provide a significant boost in hit points.




Tireless Champion: Hmmm...able to keep going below 0.  However, this ability doesn't increase with power levels.
		
Click to expand...


Yeah, I know.  I thought it was appropriate anyway.




Elemental Companion:  This ability, from the table, should only be taken, if at all, at 1st, 3rd or 5th (no further advantage for 2nd or 4th).  I don't quite like not being able to replace the elemental though.
		
Click to expand...



Yeah, I think a year waiting period is appropriate instead of never again (like a familiar).




Dwarven Hero: Cool bonuses, but no increase with various power levels.
		
Click to expand...


*The warcry ability is usable once per day per level.  If I were to do this again though, I would change the attack bonus to +1 per power level and keep the once per day per power level as well.

Thanks again for all your comments.  There were very helpful.


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 2, 2002)

> *Don't worry, Chromnos, we'll be having another contest very soon on our Website. Keep an eye out for an announcement!*




any chance of a hint about the classes involved in the next contest...?

or am I getting over anxious...?


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 2, 2002)

*King's Warden*

*King's Warden*

I really like this class idea.  Reminds of Martin Longbow from Raymond Feist's books.

*Prereqs*: Looks very solid

*Quests*: The first one looks fairly standard.  The second one really intrigued me.  I like the idea of the Trial by Pursuit.

*Fast Tracking*: I found this ability very impressive...if perhaps a bit over the top

*Stalker*: I thought this ability was a bit weak actually

*Sixth Sense*: I like it

*Shared Animosity*: I like the ability.  How many times/day can it be used?

*Nature's Acuity*: eh

*Weather-Beaten*: I thought this DR was  a bit weak

*Hunter's Eyes*: Hmmm...more bonuses with longbows.  Looks alright..maybe a touch weak.


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 2, 2002)

*Legendary Archer*

*Legendary Archer*

We really liked archer classes, didn't we?

*Prereqs*: In hindsight, the BAB should probably be +12, to meet the LgC idea.

*Quests*: Hmm...from reading the quests, there aren't going to be many of these around at all.  Just finding one to challenge is going to be a quest.

*Enhanced Dexterity*: eh

*Damaging Arrows*: Bonus damage that gets included with crits?  Definitely worth looking at.

*Great Range*: Alright, but I think its a bit weak

*Magical Arrows*: Really cool

*True Aim*: Intriguing ability

*True Strike*: I like the ability, but should probably be renamed from the spell

*Vital Strike*: Ooohhhhh, very nice


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 2, 2002)

*Monk of the Never Ending Battle*

*Monk of the Never Ending Battle*

An interesting concept...not sure how play-worthy it as a PC though.

*Prereqs*: As it stands, anyone of 7th level or higher can take this class.  Probably should, to fit the LgC rules mentioned late in the contest, increase the Knowledge (religion) requirement, and even include a BAB/UBAB.

*Quests*: The first quest can be met to easily, as there is not currently any limit on the level of the "friend".



> Yes master, my friend for this quest is this ancient gold wyrm




The second and third are good...and are consistent with, my perceived, class concept

*Unarmed Strike*: I like that the unarmed damage is cumulative with Monk and MotNEB

*Enlightened*: eh

*Haven speed*: Very cool

*Haven Bless*: I like this DR.  Would probably wait until level 5 though, just to get 20/+5

*Smiting Light*: Interesting...don't know if I'd use it though

*Celestial Body*: At the moment, this is the weakest HP increase I've seen

*Apprentice*: Interesting twist on the Leadership feat

*Call a Favor*: Oooh...the ability to cast _miracle_.


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 2, 2002)

*Neclord*

*Neclord*

I'm very impressed with this class.  I'll be sure to use IMC.  My only complaint is the phrase "non-undead"...why not call them "living"?

*Prereqs*: The BAB looks good.  I think the skills could use a little increase though.

*Quests*: I like them...they make sense

*Aura of Fear*: This ability is good against lowly opponents

*Bolster Undead*: Very nice

*Crippling Touch*: Who chooses the ability that gets nailed?  Otherwise a nice "touch"  

*Denying Death's Embrace*: The ability to turn those killed into skeletons...cool

*Resist Negative Energy*: The ability makes sense...I'm not sure if its to little/much though

*Turn Resistance*: My Paladin hates you for this

*Vampiric Touch*: Makes total sense for this class

*Weakening Touch*: see above


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 2, 2002)

*Nimrod*

*Nimrod*

I like this outdoors hunter.  Seems to be a bit of a hermit though, and probably not good for a PC

*Prereqs*: Because this class seeks a "balance", I'd think it would need to be some flavor of Neutral.  Should also have a minimum number of levels in Ranger required...its implied only.

*Quests*: I like the idea of eradicating communities of their favored enemies.  Since the 2nd question involves diplomacy, that skill should probably be in the set of prereqs.

*Class Features*: I like that this LgC stacks with the Ranger levels for spells and Favored Enemy.  The other abilities are nice touches to the class

*Bonus Languages*: I like the gain in the Druidic tongue.  What happens though if the character already speaks the tongues of their Favored Enemies?

*Druidic Abilties*: It's already mentioned that this ability shouldn't be chosen @ 1st of 5th.

*Druidic Magic*: I'm not sure if gaining X Orisons is really a "legendary" ability

*Environmental Attunement*: Very nice

*Hunting Ability*: I can understand what you're saying...just not sure if I like it or not

*Outdoor Survival*: Due to the limited nature of this ability, I think its a bit to weak

*Patience*: eh

*Prepare Antitoxin*: I like this one

*Summon Animals*: Cool ability


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 3, 2002)

*King's Warden...*



> I really like this class idea. Reminds of Martin Longbow from Raymond Feist's books.




funny you should say that... Martin Longbow was the inspiration for this class...


----------



## Sheridan (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: Nimrod*

Paul,
Thanks for your feedback - you bring up a couple points I considered when I put the class together, but decided to leave out for one reason or another.  Many of them will find thier way back into "the next rev".  Thanks again for your input !
*Sheridan
PS Khur, where do you want us to send our revised classes to for the NetBook ?


----------



## Khur (Aug 3, 2002)

*Revisions*

Send them to me if you like.

Check out this thread too:

Legendary Class Submissions 

Thanks.


----------



## RedCliff (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Warrior of the Broken Wake*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Prereqs*: Look fairly good.  However, I think an alignment restriction might be in order.  Most LG characters I've played with wouldn't be into this total destruction...even the Paladins against agents of total chaos.




I guess this is a matter of opinion really. I seriously thought about it, but in the end decided to leave it out. The reason was that I was going for a broad base on this, excluding no kind of character unless really necessary. That's one of the reasons I added the description of the warrior's variable attitude in the text. A warrior could be a berserking madman who revels in the destruction he causes, and people like that wouldn't be lawful good. But others could be calm and focused, and just be good at chanelling their energies into destroying things. I don't have too much problem seeing a paladin shunting into this class, especially if there is a horde of enemies threatening his land, people, holy grounds, etc. Such a man wouldn't be cackling with glee as he sunders weapons and smashes through walls. In fact he could be calmly moving through the battlefield, continually praying in a soft voice, beseeching his god to grant him the strength to do waht needs to be done. All the while foes and their battlements fall to his powerful swings. 

Ultimately, I decided that the destruction wasn't inherently evil; it was the way such abilities would be used that would determine alignment, much like magic. Though I'm certainly open to dissenting opinions.



> *Quests*: Intersting concepts.  The only creatures that I'm aware of that have +10 natural armor are dragons.




Beholders have natural AC of +11, Bullets of +12, there are a few demons and devils with +10 or better natural AC. I didn't do a thorough check of the MM before writing that, but my cursory look through seemed to generate enough variety that this quest didn't seem too limiting.

Though I'll admit, dragons were the first thing that came to mind when I thought of the quest.



> *Cut the Masses*: Wow!  Applying excess damage to nearby foes.  That would come in handy IMC.




This one really varries in usefullness depending on the particular rulings of individual DMs. I've played in campaigns where the DM uses the -10 rule for everything. If you're in a game like that, you won't be transfering too many spaces over. But I liked the picture of it, and I tend to think most DMs don't want to be bothered making stabilization checks for every goblin on the field.



> *Irresistible Strike*: Hmmm...basically granting a +2 attack bonus/power level for creatures that have natural armor.




Mostly, but it only applies to natural armor. So you could have this at level 5 and get a +10 to attacking creatures. But if you face a grick, for example, whcih only has a +4 natural AC, you'll only get a +4 to hit it. The extra bonus is lost, since you can only use it to negate the natrual armor.



> *Crushing Blow*: This ability, maxed out, would reduce wood (hardness 5) and less to a hardness of paper  (hardness 0).  The description mentions stone in it...maybe make 2/power level instead of 1?




Well, I was being more figurative than literal when I wrote it, but I'm not wedded to the particulars of this in any way. If people don't think it would be unbalancing, I wouldn't have a problem bumping up the power progression.



> *Hooking Blow*: Keeping an opponent snared on your weapon...very cool.  However, I think it might need some kind of limit on it.  Perhaps 2 times/power level/day?




You think it's too powerful? I figured being forced to give up the full attack opion to hold the opponent would be pretty limiting. Plus, it's otherwise like a normal grapple, meaning the odds of doing it to a larger opponent is pretty poor (maybe one size higher, considering the bonus the warrior gets, but nothing better than that). 

The reason I'm hesitant to place a times per day kind of limit on this ability is because it would be an extraordinary ability, rather than a supernatural or spell like ability. Extraordinary abilities are more like skills in that they are learned and rely only on knowledge and expertise, rather than some mystical source of energy to empower. Placing a limit on how many times per day you can do this doesn't seem right. It's like limiting the number of times per day you can use general feats like combat casting or power attack. If this ability is overpowered, I'd prefer to make it less effective than limit the number of times you can use it.



> *Sever Life*: This ability assumes that the Massive Damage rule is used...I know we don't use it IMC. [/B]




That's absolutely true. My campaign hasn't reached the point where taking 50 or more points of damage in a sinlge hit would matter (they'd all die immediately anyway). But I don't know what else to do other than assume the use of the core rules as they are printed. I can't imagine trying to anticipate house rulings. I doubt I'd get anything else done.


----------



## RedCliff (Aug 5, 2002)

*Modular Legend Book?*

Just a random thought, but I thought I'd throw out a book idea about these legendary classes. Since they appear so popular, might there be a book devoted just to them sometime in the future? Modular settings have been done (Freeport, Malhavok's upcoming Book of Eldridge Might III will be all about mystical locations to drop into a campaign regardless of the world), why
not a book on modular legends?

The legend of the Adamantine Warrior, for example, seems perfectly suited to drop into any campaign that has a barbaric culture that finds itself at war with any frequency. An entry for this class in a book like this would expound a little more on the legend of the warrior (maybe cite the first known one, and a successor or two, and list some of their deeds, and how these became part of the trials) and then list the class. Maybe give a few tips on how to integrate this into a world and what implications having a legend like this might have on a culture. Obviously the Adamantine Warrior's been done; I just cite it as an example everyone can relate to.

Stories and legends are part of what makes worlds so cool, and they vastly enrich campaign worlds. A book like this would be useful to GMs even if they didn't want to use the legendary classes attached to them (though I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't ). For those that do decide to include them, it gives PCs the chance to become true world shakers, stepping up to fill
the roles they've heard the bards sing of all their lives.

Just thought I'd toss that out as a small wish list.


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 6, 2002)

*Spirit of the Beast*

*Spirit of the Beast*

I like this concept...a lycanthrope-type without the curse

*Prereqs*: I thought they alll looked good...except some of the skills.  I thought they could've been bumped a bit.

*Quests*: I liked the tournament idea.  The saves were steep, but that's good, IMO, for an LgC.

*Armor of the Beast*: Oooh...a +2 deflection bonus/power level.  Very nice

*Blessing of the Lycanthrope*: I like this DR, +3/- / power level

*Howl of the Beast*: Summon dire animals to attack you enemies...sweet

*Rage Form*: A mandatory ability at some point.  This is an interesting ability, and I like the progression.

*Spirit Walk*: Hmmm...can only be used 1/power level/month?  This, I believe, is the longest duration out there for any ability.

*Spiritual Casting*: How many spells?  It says "at will", "spell-like ability" and "recovers the spells as a Druid", so I am a bit confused.

*Tertiary Attack*: It looks good, but I got lost on the mechanics

*Totemic Aura*: Morale bonus/penalty for allies/enemies...I like it

*Totemic Smite*: Hmmm...interesting


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Warrior of the Broken Wake*



			
				RedCliff said:
			
		

> *You think it's too powerful? I figured being forced to give up the full attack opion to hold the opponent would be pretty limiting. Plus, it's otherwise like a normal grapple, meaning the odds of doing it to a larger opponent is pretty poor (maybe one size higher, considering the bonus the warrior gets, but nothing better than that). *



On reflection, I guess it isn't to powerful.  I hadn't fully thought out giving up their full attack action.


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 6, 2002)

*Re: Modular Legend Book?*



			
				RedCliff said:
			
		

> *Just a random thought, but I thought I'd throw out a book idea about these legendary classes. Since they appear so popular, might there be a book devoted just to them sometime in the future? Modular settings have been done (Freeport, Malhavok's upcoming Book of Eldridge Might III will be all about mystical locations to drop into a campaign regardless of the world), why not a book on modular legends?*



While this concept does indeed sound intriguing, I think it might take to much work for the DM to change their world outlook to fit the legends in.  IMC, its my world, and we're only in one part of it.  I could, with relative ease, drop these modular legends in.  However, I know DMs who've mapped out their world rather extensively, or are using already made worlds (Oerth, Faerun, Athas, Scarred Lands, Ravenloft, etc), and these might have some dificulty fitting in.  Just my thoughts.


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 6, 2002)

*Storm*

*Storm*

An elemental warrior type...quite interesting.  My only  real problem is that Rage is listed as a prereq, yet the write-up mentions Monks.  Ex-Barbarians can't rage, yet Ex-Monks retain their monk-ish abilities.

*Prereqs*: In hindsight, the save and skill reqs are a bit low.  Otherwise fairly good

*Quests*: Conquering a mountain is a neat idea...I'm something similar to Everest?  As for the 2nd quest, the way its written, there is no minimum CR for the elemental beast...probably should be one.

*Tornado Attack*: Does this allow the character to make multiple 5' steps when doing their full attack?

*Rain of Blows*: I think the -1 on all attacks is a bit weak...maybe a -2?

*Lightning Strike*: Interesting ability...though I think it a bit weak at the higher power levels.

*The Calm Before*: I *like* this ability

*Torrent*: Does this rage count against the number of rages the character already has?

*Heated Rage*: A better rage

*Thunderclap*: Interesting, but I think a little weak

*Burning Hate*: _Burning hands_ as an ability

*Warning Fires*: Ah, able to cause your enemies damage e'en as they damage you...very nice


----------



## RedCliff (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: Storm*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> An elemental warrior type...quite interesting.  My only  real problem is that Rage is listed as a prereq, yet the write-up mentions Monks.  Ex-Barbarians can't rage, yet Ex-Monks retain their monk-ish abilities.




Quite correct. That's why there's a lot of requirements. The aspirant Storm must meet five of the ones listed.



> *Prereqs*: In hindsight, the save and skill reqs are a bit low.  Otherwise fairly good




I was lacking the insight of minimum level requirements at the time, and was going for number of requirements over height. This is one of those that will indeed require some retooling.



> *Quests*: Conquering a mountain is a neat idea...I'm something similar to Everest?  As for the 2nd quest, the way its written, there is no minimum CR for the elemental beast...probably should be one.




Again, quite true. I was counting on the wisdom of the DM to insert something appropriate, but a little guidance couldn't hurt. Hmm... CR 12 sounds about right, given what we know now.



> *Tornado Attack*: Does this allow the character to make multiple 5' steps when doing their full attack?




Yup. 1 per power level.



> *Rain of Blows*: I think the -1 on all attacks is a bit weak...maybe a -2?




I was afriad that this would make the power nearly useless the higher up it went in level (topping out at -10 per attack), but I can see where a -5 for five additional attacks could be unbalancing. I'll need to play with it some to find a happy medium somewhere.



> *Lightning Strike*: Interesting ability...though I think it a bit weak at the higher power levels.




Others had suggested making available power level times/day. I probably did err on the side of modesty, in the desperate attempts to keep it balanced. 




> *The Calm Before*: I *like* this ability




This one seems to be popular. I'm fine with that.  



> *Torrent*: Does this rage count against the number of rages the character already has?




I hadn't intended it to, but in looking at the text, I notice I didn't even specify how many times per day you're allowed to do it. Another revision.



> *Heated Rage*: A better rage




I'll be honest. Back when, though I was thoroughly disgusted with 2E (Back in my day, we had 1E, and we *liked* it) I somehow wound up with the complete book of barbarians. There were several different barbarian kits in there that had different kind of rages. For whatever reason, the idea absolutely fascinated me. So I tried to do something with that here. Unfortunately, I don't really like the results of either of them. The rages are both too similar to the barbarian rage, and not nearly distinctive enough. 

Go figure a week after the contest is done I get a slew of much better ideas for varied rages. Such is the way of things. 

Needless to say, this section is also needing of a big revision.



> *Thunderclap*: Interesting, but I think a little weak




What is it that's weak? Is it the one time/day thing again? I was thinking of kicking that up to power level/day too. Otherwise it's a group stunning attack, which seems reasonably powerful (I don't know what your opinions are on the monk's stunning attack). 

Thanks for all the feedback. I've found it incredibly useful, and I truly do appreciate it.


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 7, 2002)

*some suggestions for Storm*

I have to say that I liked the imagination behind this class... I think it's a hell of alot more creative than either of mine...

if you're interested here are a couple of suggestions on how you might address some of the possible weaknesses in the abilities... 

*Rain of Blows*


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 7, 2002)

*computer illiterate*

sorry about that last post folks...

trying again...

*Rain of Blows:* you could try -2 to attack/power level but have it staggered through the bonus attacks... ie, first bonus attack is taken at -2, second bonus attack at -4 and so on...


*Lightning Strike:* I would consider making the damage increase by power level... either 1d4 or 1d6 per power level... it suddenly becomes alot more attractive at level 5 when you get 5d6 electricity damage and a stunning attack...


*Thunderclap:* have you considered increasing the area of effect by power level... something like a 5ft radius circle/power level or a cone of 10ft/power level... I didn't see a duration for the stun effect either... 

also if you wanted to keep the power at once per day, you could include 1d4 subdual damage per power level (fort negates) due the battering received during the thunderclap...


like said, just some suggestions... I know I got alot out of d20Dwarf's "brainstorming" session with me... just wanting to give something back...


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: Re: Storm*



			
				RedCliff said:
			
		

> *What is it that's weak? Is it the one time/day thing again? I was thinking of kicking that up to power level/day too.*



Yes it is.  Sorry, should've mentioned that.


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 7, 2002)

*The One*

*The One*

Because of this class, I *really* want to see this movie now.

*Prereqs*: I think they're too vague...nothing really solid to point at.

*Quests*: This entire class is a quest

*Absorb the Inner Essence*: I normally put stat bumps as "eh", but this one is different as you can choose it multiple times, as long as it goes to a different stat.  Nice twist

*Aura of Resistance*: SR 13 + power level

*Fortify the Flesh*: Bonus HP of 5/power level

*Fortress of the Self*: Similar to the Paladins _divine grace_, except its the power level...nice

*Magical Overflow*: Interesting concept, although only useful to spell casters.  I think it a bit weak actually.

*Quicken the Pace*: Move quicker, always a good thing.  Is this power on all the time, or only when in light armor or less?

*Rapid Metabolism*: Hmmm...fast healing of power level.  Not sure if its to weak or not...I'm sitting on the fence for that.

*Sense the Rhythm*: Bonus to initiative, also a good thing

*Sudden Insight*: Skill bonus, and can also be taken multiple times.


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 7, 2002)

*True King*

*True King*

An intriguing class idea.  However, I don't think a PC could _ever_ take it

*Prereqs*: In hindsight, a bit weak.  As for the feats, needing 2 hardly seems legendary...but I'm not sure what else could be possible due to the nature of the class.

*Quests*: I'm not sure what to think of these.  It seems that the majority of the quests comes after the person becomes a True King, not before

*Divine Right*: SR of +10/power level...holy anit-magic aura Batman!

*Aura of Authority*: eh

*Truth and Justice*: I like the _discern lies_ ability.  The bonus to the 







> ...skill checks related to ruling and administering his realm



 is good, but stagnant.  Perhaps making a +2/power level?

*Passionate Rhetoric*: I like it.

*Heirloom*: I'm not sure about the "one or more" bit.  I'd think it should only be for one item...perhaps at artifact level if chosen that high

*Natural Leader*: I understand, and like the concept, although I think the wording of the mechanics need a bit more work

*Mighty Blow*: This ability assumes that the DM is using the Massive Damage rules

*Return from Beyond*: How many times can the True King return in the time allotted?


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 7, 2002)

*The Prophet*

*The Prophet*

An interesting clerical class...not really in the purview of the contest though.  Why do they get d12 for HD?

*Prereqs*: Looks good to me

*Quests*: I like the fact that they have to get an artifact, but not use it, then give it to someone else to use it for a higher purpose.  Then they are forced to be an advisor to this person they chose.  Reminds me of Merlin and Arthur

*Animal Form*: I like this ability...especially the at will part

*Aura of Command*: Hmmm..increasing the DC of enchantment/charm abilities only...hmmm

*Aura of Grace*: eh

*Aura of the Divine*: Neat ability...perhaps increase it to 100 ft. radius/power level?

*Oracle*: Nice

*Proselytize*: Access to the spells, but how many/day can they throw?

*Order of God*: I like the spells given

*Overpwering Faith*: I'm not to sure of the mechanics of this one.  Does the Prophet need to know what level of spell is about to be thrown?

*Uncanny Dodge*: What's the use of taking this ability at 2nd or 4th?

*Warth of God*: Nice ability...can they choose to divide the damage into separate damage types...say 2d6 for fire and 2d6 for electricity?


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 7, 2002)

*The Messiah*

*The Messiah*

This class was also out of the purview of the contest...but it was interesting.  My biggest complaint was the spelling and grammar errors in the write-up.

*Prereqs*: For what the class is about, I think the requirements are a bit weak.  Especially the Leadership score.  The 14 score can be met at 9th level for most humans, assuming they max out there Cha score every step of the way.  Further, at that level, one can have Cha boosting magical items.

*Quests*: I like that there are 3 different paths for this class, all incompatible with the other.

*Adopt a New Domain*: A new domain granted power/power level...can be *very* useful

*Convert Followers*: The idea of converting people makes sense for this class, but I'm not sure about the limitations or the warrior type to Monk conversion

*Deep Thoughts*: eh

*False Religion*: When does the Messiah do this?  What type of action is it?

*Holly Words*: How many parables become true?

*Perform Miracles*: Cast _miracle_ power level/month...nice ability

*Spiritual Journey*: Cast _planar shift_ power level/month...can be useful, but should only be taken after 2nd, since you'll need to get back.

*Unmatched Resolve*: This can be very good, especially if paired with *Deep Thoughts*

*Write the Book*: While the concept is nice, it really doesn't help the character.


----------



## RedCliff (Aug 9, 2002)

*thanks all*

Just wanted to say thanks to Ruavel and Kingpaul for teh brainstorming session.  I was rather rushed at the end and didn't have the time to really think out some of these abilities like I wanted to, and the discussions have helped immensely.  So thanks a bunch.


----------



## Falcon (Aug 9, 2002)

I didn't enter, but I must say that Path of the Sword is the best  d20 sourcebook for fighters and non-Rokugan Monks that has been published.  I thknk the Legendary Class idea is brilliant, something that allows PCs to become powerful AND enchance the flavor of the campaign for the DM and the player.  You all do great work. 

I recommend your supplements/sourcebooks/guides to EVERYONE!


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 9, 2002)

*Re: thanks all*



			
				RedCliff said:
			
		

> *Just wanted to say thanks to Ruavel and Kingpaul for teh brainstorming session.  I was rather rushed at the end and didn't have the time to really think out some of these abilities like I wanted to, and the discussions have helped immensely.  So thanks a bunch. *



No problem.  I have 3 more classes that I need to look to do write-ups for...just haven't gotten around to them yet.


----------



## claude (Aug 10, 2002)

*Re: The Messiah*

Hello,

This is my first post ever on these forums, I don't know how this message will look like...



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *The Messiah
> 
> So this is mine. I'm finally back from holidays so I can answer your comments.
> 
> ...


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: The Messiah*



			
				claude said:
			
		

> *I'm surprised you would say that. What was wrong with the requirements?*



I didn't think there was anything wrong with the requirements...I just didn't think this class fit the "Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers and Monks" motif very well


			
				claude said:
			
		

> *I'm really sorry about that. English is not my mother language. Maybe we could do another contest in french  ?*



If we do, then I won't participate...I'm one of those dumb unilingual Americans.    Actually, I did take 4 years of Spanish in High School, but that was over 10 years ago, so my skills are pretty much nil.


			
				claude said:
			
		

> *Now we can stop wondering why Jesus isn't back yet .
> <no offense intended>*



LOL


			
				claude said:
			
		

> *I don't think of it in terms of character improvement. The Messiah has a goal, and I think this helps him to fulfill it.*



While that may be true, I still think the abilities should help out the character in some shape/manner/form.


----------



## Khur (Aug 12, 2002)

*Come one....*

Come all!

To the Legendary Class Netbook Thread that kingpaul started and see if you'd like to submit your contest submission to our little netbook project.

We have eight classes and we're looking for more of the persons that submitted an entry to give us permission to put their classes in the OGC PDF we're working on.

Please submit only if you're willing to edit your work a few times to hone it to pro level. You'll have to pass through me and at least one other editor (who's a great mathematician and rules lawyer). Also, feel free to add story to the class that defines the legend or culture in which the legend may be found.

We're glad to help out claude or anyone else who doesn't speak English as their primary language. (I enjoyed the Messiah ... though it probably belongs in a non-fighter oriented book.)

If you don't want to do the editing yourself, at least give us permission to edit for you. (The final version will have "Edited and embellished by (Editor) based on the work of (Your Name Here). 

Or, the authors who did most of their own work will simply appear in the opening credits and the ones that required lots of touch-up will appear as "Additional Material Provided by" or some such.

Just ideas at this stage.

Thanks!


----------

