# What older setting do you want to see next?



## Haplo781

We've seen most of the classics, but there are a few left, plus a few cult classics. Which setting from an older editions would you most like to see next?


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## aco175

Forgotten Realms (FR).  I would go for something away from Sword Coast like the Dales and Sembia, Cormyr, or even Tetyr(sp).  I'm interested in next years Phandelver campaign book, but something else would be cool.


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## Corinnguard

I put down the Council of Wyrms setting, even though it's chances of being the next 5e or 5.5e setting are slim to none.


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## Digdude@1970

Birthright for the epic play!!


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## Levistus's_Leviathan

Why isn't Dark Sun an option?


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## Corinnguard

Levistus's_Leviathan said:


> Why isn't Dark Sun an option?



It probably isn't an option here thanks to that leak we've heard of a while back.


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## Haplo781

Levistus's_Leviathan said:


> Why isn't Dark Sun an option?



Because I forgot it lol. It's there now.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan

Choice number 1 is Dark Sun (now that it's an option). If I were able to choose a second option, it would be Nentir Vale/Nerath


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## jdrakeh

Greyhawk. Granted, I'm just now reading up on/refamiliarizing with post-Wars Era Greyhawk and AD&D 1e with the intent to run a game set there later this Fall, but I'd also like to see a 5e book for the setting.


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## edosan

I’d like to see Nentir Vale but first I’d like to know that they’re actually going to do justice to these settings because I haven’t exactly been happy with any of them yet.


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## JEB

edosan said:


> I’d like to see Nentir Vale but first I’d like to know that they’re actually going to do justice to these settings because I haven’t exactly been happy with any of them yet.



Yeah, I feel like a caveat should be included - whether or not you're expecting the setting to return as a continuation/update, or if you're fine with a rebooted version. (After two reboots in a row and a third telegraphed, folks should just assume the latter.)


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## Twiggly the Gnome

After the 50th Anniversary Edition drops, I'd like to see an Eberron refresh. The slipcase format would actually work out well for this.

Book 1 - Mechanical updates to player character options, and a new starter city (not Sharn!).

Book 2 - Monsters! Quori, Daelkyr, Deathless, Undead, Mournland abominations, ect.

Book 3 - A new adventure campaign!


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## CleverNickName

Definitely Mystara.  If I had a second-place vote, it would be for Greyhawk.

EDIT:  You know what?  Here's my ranking of all options, in order of preference.  Because I can.

Mystara (including Red Steel and Hollow World) >> Greyhawk > Other (Pelinor) > Birthright > Other (Lankhmar) > Ghostwalk, Dark Sun, Council of Worms, Nentir Vale, and all the rest that I've never played.


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## overgeeked

About a third of those I actively want. Another third I wouldn't be disappointed in seeing. The last third I don't know enough about them to answer. But, since there's "no more editions" we'll have infinite time to get all the old settings in 5E, so everyone gets what they want...right?


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## opacitizen

Considering what they've done so far with RL and SJ, I'm not entirely sure I'd want them to tackle any other old setting. 

YMMV, of course.


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## overgeeked

opacitizen said:


> Considering what they've done so far with RL and SJ, I'm not entirely sure I'd want them to tackle any other old setting.
> 
> YMMV, of course.



Right there with you. The benefit is the rules. The lore (when it exists..._cough_ Spelljammer) is easily replaceable by the older stuff.


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## Delazar

I voted Birthright, but all I really want is some sort of rules to handle mass battles where the PCs features/traits really matter.


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## delericho

The only one I'm interested in is Dark Sun, but at this point I think I want them to stay well clear.


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## AnotherGuy

I echo some of the other posters. 
I love Mystara but I do not want WotC going anywhere near the setting please considering what they have done with some of the others they have touched. The fans of the setting do a great enough job with it as is. Also Mystara would be a landmine when it came to sensitivity content.


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## Tonguez

Birthright is a cool setting variation


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## Frozen_Heart

Ideally I'd love to see Dark Sun (along with a psion class). However I'm not sure that 5e could handle the topics involved in the setting so maybe it's best to avoid it.


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## Aldarc

_*Nentir Vale*_ - James Wyatt, Rich Baker, and Chris Perkins as writers 
- do not let Todd Kendreck touch it because he would just turn it into Forgotten Realms - 

OR

*Iomandra* - Chris Perkins's homebrew world for 4e, which was an island hopping version of 4e implied setting


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## South by Southwest

Now that we know _Planescape_ is coming, I voted for both _Greyhawk_ and _Dark Sun_ (technically listed as <Other>), but with the _proviso_ that I want them only on condition that neither they nor _Planescape_ are treated the way _Spelljammer_ apparently was. A proper campaign setting is large, robust, detailed, and robustly imaginative; it need not include any "starter" adventures or even any explicit adventure hooks, but writers who want to include such certainly can. The setting itself, though, needs to be as expansive and encompassing as the world it describes. DM screens are cute, fun, and useful (assuming essential charts, maps, _etc._ are on their interiors), but they do not count as part of the setting.

I want a return to the true campaign setting; give me those and I'll be happy.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan

Aldarc said:


> - do not let Todd Kendreck touch it because he would just turn it into Forgotten Realms -



Does he work on official products now? I thought he just did the Youtube interviews for them. And what about him leads you to think this?


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## Aldarc

Levistus's_Leviathan said:


> Does he work on official products now? I thought he just did the Youtube interviews for them. And what about him leads you to think this?



The Heroes of the Vale campaign he ran. More precisely, Mearls started the Heroes of the Vale campaign with some controversial changes to the setting. Mearls-related drama happened. Todd Kendreck took over and then over the course of the campaign he basically killed the Nentir Vale and moved the heroes to the Forgotten Realms instead.


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## Professor Murder

Digdude@1970 said:


> Birthright for the epic play!!



Exactly this. Look, the best way to used settings for me is to fill genre slots. Don't care for Ravenloft as a setting, but want tools for Horror? Van Richten has some things for you. Have an elaborate social setting but want some simple rules for framework? Take a look into Stryxhaven. Epic DnD is always a niche setting. But it should be covered in every edition in some capacity. Making it a setting improves the chance people will take a look and gives a setting for those who need one.


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## GuyBoy

Greyhawk by a mile. Seems to be a wonderful fit for the 50th Anniversary too. 
I like Nentir Vale as a smaller campaign setting if that was the objective but it doesn’t carry the historical kudos of Greyhawk.


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## Snarf Zagyg

The top five settings that should be released:

1. Greyhawk
2. The Flanaess
3. Oerth
4. The Great Kingdom is neither Great nor a Kingdom- discuss.
5. Western Oerik


#GREYHAWKCONFIRMED!


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## RuinousPowers

Voted Birthright, but Gothic Earth from Masque of the Red Death would also have gotten my vote.


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## Elodan

Forgotten Realms  ( full setting, not just the Sword Coast )
Greyhawk

What can I say, I like vanilla.


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## Digdude@1970

Just a note, I will shamelessly like any post that votes for Birthright. Make humans varied and important again!! With culture. Of all the places that need diversity and inclusion in this game, the human race in DnD is it!


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## Ath-kethin

Based on the handling of Spelljammer and Dragonlance, none of them. My interest in having a setting updated to a new edition/ruleset is inversely proportional to my interest in seeing everything distinctive about the setting - the bits that made me love it in the first place - removed or replaced.


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## Haplo781

Nentir Vale in a strong 2nd place makes my 4e fanboy heart smile.


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## Lanefan

Voted Mystara but would have also voted Birthright if allowed to.  Third for me would be Nentir Vale or something similar - a points-of-light type of setting where most of the world is dark and full of terrors.  After that, take yer pick.


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## Haplo781

Lanefan said:


> Voted Mystara but would have also voted Birthright if allowed to.  Third for me would be Nentir Vale or something similar - a points-of-light type of setting where most of the world is dark and full of terrors.  After that, take yer pick.



I will probably do a "pick your top 3" poll with the top 5 choices from this one, as soon as it closes.


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## James Gasik

Argh.  I so wanted to pick Birthright, but playing a dragon?  The idea is so terminally cool!


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## Mecheon

Y'know, while I'm normally banging the Athas drum (Though with Kreen included in Spelljammer, my main desire from there is sorted), the more obscures like Birthright or the ones that give me stuff to muck about with like Mystara....

I'd really like to see Council of Wyrms again, y'know? Preferably in a day and age where "Only one person plays the dragon and falls to sleep for months on end so during that time the other folks run around" isn't a balancing feature. just, let everyone be dragon.


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## Uni-the-Unicorn!

opacitizen said:


> Considering what they've done so far with RL and SJ, I'm not entirely sure I'd want them to tackle any other old setting.
> 
> YMMV, of course.



I would. I never really played the old settings and I am not really interested in the old lore. I would love a new take on some of these.


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## Micah Sweet

Uni-the-Unicorn! said:


> I would. I never really played the old settings and I am not really interested in the old lore. I would love a new take on some of these.



If you're not interested in the old lore, why would you care about the setting at all?  You'd be just as happy with a new setting.

I don't think WotC should publish any of the old settings.  They can't be trusted with them.


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## Uni-the-Unicorn!

Micah Sweet said:


> If you're not interested in the old lore, why would you care about the setting at all?  You'd be just as happy with a new setting.
> 
> I don't think WotC should publish any of the old settings.  They can't be trusted with them.



I disagree. There is nothing sacred about old lore. It is still there If you want to use it. Let the new have some new. 

I’ve been generally happy with the setting releases so far


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## Uni-the-Unicorn!

Micah Sweet said:


> If you're not interested in the old lore, why would you care about the setting at all?  You'd be just as happy with a new setting.



Not quite, nostalgia is still a thing. Though I never played starfrontiers I remember when it came out and the cool looking cover, etc. A setting is not simply every detail of lore, it is also just an impression or inspiration that it provides. I have history with many of the settings if no specific attachment to the lore.

I mean you have the lore you want, why hate on others you would like refresh, reboot, or whatever you call it. There is not one true way to play a setting. Let others have their time in the sun.


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## Micah Sweet

Uni-the-Unicorn! said:


> I disagree. There is nothing sacred about old lore. It is still there If you want to use it. Let the new have some new.
> 
> I’ve been generally happy with the setting releases so far



I agree.  I just think it should be completely new, as opposed to using old names for branding and nostalgia purposes.


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## Digdude@1970

The thing about Birthright is that its as close to an epic DnD setting in a Game of Thrones setting you can get without copyright infringment. The setting had an Iron Throne before GoT. All of humans have seperate cultures. Magic is low but epic and the demi humans are tolkienish. That being said, it could use a lot of clean up.


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## Micah Sweet

Uni-the-Unicorn! said:


> Not quite, nostalgia is still a thing. Though I never played starfrontiers I remember when it came out and the cool looking cover, etc. A setting is not simply every detail of lore, it is also just an impression or inspiration that it provides. I have history with many of the settings if no specific attachment to the lore.
> 
> I mean you have the lore you want, why hate on others you would like refresh, reboot, or whatever you call it. There is not one true way to play a setting. Let others have their time in the sun.



I'm not hating on anyone.  I just see no reason for reboots to exist that isn't financial.


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## overgeeked

Uni-the-Unicorn! said:


> I disagree. There is nothing sacred about old lore. It is still there If you want to use it. Let the new have some new.
> 
> I’ve been generally happy with the setting releases so far



The answer is to then simply publish actually new stuff. Players who want new (or new to them) are satisfied while the players who like the old lore aren’t poked in the eye.


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## Haplo781

Digdude@1970 said:


> The thing about Birthright is that its as close to an epic DnD setting in a Game of Thrones setting you can get without copyright infringment. The setting had an Iron Throne before GoT. All of humans have seperate cultures. Magic is low but epic and the demi humans are tolkienish. That being said, it could use a lot of clean up.



I'd personally rather see this addressed by an Eldraine book (MtG setting). Which is coincidentally getting a revisit next year.


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## Uni-the-Unicorn!

overgeeked said:


> The answer is to then simply publish actually new stuff. Players who want new (or new to them) are satisfied while the players who like the old lore aren’t poked in the eye.



Look at my next response for a clarifying message. I would like an update of old settings, not old lore of old settings

See post #41, sorry I can’t seem to link on my phone


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## Uni-the-Unicorn!

Micah Sweet said:


> I'm not hating on anyone.



It doesn’t feel like it. You are saying I can’t have what I want simply because it is not the right way to do it in your opinion. Maybe hate is to strong but it feels like you are saying what I want is bad/wrong.


Micah Sweet said:


> I just see no reason for reboots to exist that isn't financial.



Ok, I mean this is true of the whole game. I don’t get your point here.


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## Micah Sweet

Uni-the-Unicorn! said:


> It doesn’t feel like it. You are saying I can’t have what I want simply because it is not the right way to do it in your opinion. Maybe hate is to strong but it feels like you are saying what I want is bad/wrong.
> 
> Ok, I mean this is true of the whole game. I don’t get your point here.



I don't understand what you mean.  What's true of the whole game?  I'm talking about settings and, by extension, fictional worlds, not rule sets (if that's what you're referring to).


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## Lanefan

Micah Sweet said:


> If you're not interested in the old lore, why would you care about the setting at all?



Because updated, expanded, and shiny new maps are good to have no matter what lore they might attach to any of it; IME map-making is perhaps the biggest single time-sink when designing a homebrew setting, which means using someone else's maps and homebrewing the rest is way easier. 

And who knows, some of the "new lore" they add in might even be worthwhile.  You can always can the rest and replace it with your own.


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## Blue Orange

Birthright's going to get tricky with the magic bloodlines.

I doubt Greyhawk has much of a fanbase outside of grognards, sadly. It's just not different enough from the other fantasy settings. Same with Mystara (though the fanbase is a little younger--_Moyenne Garde_ perhaps?).

My money's on Dark Sun.


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## James Gasik

I see Birthright as a great way to get past the "PC's are just ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances" narrative that occasionally holds some characters back from being able to have greater utility or narrative perks.

If you have the blood of a dead god in your veins, the sky is the limit!


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## overgeeked

James Gasik said:


> I see Birthright as a great way to get past the "PC's are just ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances" narrative that occasionally holds some characters back from being able to have greater utility or narrative perks.
> 
> If you have the blood of a dead god in your veins, the sky is the limit!



Not like there's any shortage of players trying to have that kind of ridiculously empowering backstory and not like there's any shortage of epic high fantasy shenanigans already in 5E. We already have blood of dragons, blood of fiends, and blood of angels.


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## Haplo781

overgeeked said:


> Not like there's any shortage of players trying to have that kind of ridiculously empowering backstory and not like there's any shortage of epic high fantasy shenanigans already in 5E. We already have blood of dragons, blood of fiends, and blood of angels.



All of which somehow fail to actually empower martials to do any high fantasy shenanigans...


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## overgeeked

Haplo781 said:


> All of which somehow fail to actually empower martials to do any high fantasy shenanigans...



Multiclassing and Tasha's reflavoring of spells. Pick a caster class with the best mechanical match to your concept of a demigod brawler and level in that. Then reflavor the spells to be martial attacks or effects. It's a kludge, but it's the only way to do it without redesigning martials. Which WotC seems utterly disinclined to do.


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## Tonguez

Haplo781 said:


> I'd personally rather see this addressed by an Eldraine book (MtG setting). Which is coincidentally getting a revisit next year.



Throne of Eldraine would be awesome as a Pendragon inspired setting of knights and castles but I’d not want it to replace Birthright - personally I loved the Brecht and the whole Hansa league vibe of Merchant-Princes and the singular monsters as ruling powers vibe.

A similar domain mechanic could be used for both settings but the fairytale focus of Eldraine is distinct from the renaissance politics of Birthright.


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## Aldarc

*My pitch for the Nentir Vale:* it is a great "starter setting" for new GMs to personalize and make their own. It does not have the tremendous depth of lore, histories, and novelizations like the Forgotten Realms or other settings. The Nentir Vale is a setting that exists in sketched form. Fill-in-the-blanks. Personalize as needed. It is not a setting that lives and dies by its the facts and lore, but, rather, by its _themes_. Nentir Vale is driven by its thematic play: one really only needs to be vaguely familiar with key thematic ideas about the points of light, the World Axis, and the Dawn War, because these are the thematic drivers and hooks of the setting. This is what makes it extremely easy to plug and play with player characters, monsters, modules, sandbox games, etc. 

That is why I return the Nentir Vale again and again and again for play with D&D groups and non-D&D groups alike.


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## Haplo781

Aldarc said:


> *My pitch for the Nentir Vale:* it is a great "starter setting" for new GMs to personalize and make their own. It does not have the tremendous depth of lore, histories, and novelizations like the Forgotten Realms or other settings. The Nentir Vale is a setting that exists in sketched form. Fill-in-the-blanks. Personalize as needed. It is not a setting that lives and dies by its the facts and lore, but, rather, by its _themes_. Nentir Vale is driven by its thematic play: one really only needs to be vaguely familiar with key thematic ideas about the points of light, the World Axis, and the Dawn War, because these are the thematic drivers and hooks of the setting. This is what makes it extremely easy to plug and play with player characters, monsters, modules, sandbox games, etc.
> 
> That is why I return the Nentir Vale again and again and again for play with D&D groups and non-D&D groups alike.



Could function as a sort of "World Builder's Guidebook", that walks you through the whys and wherefores of each element in the Vale before providing advice on expanding beyond it.


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## schneeland

My personal ranking would be 1) Greyhawk, 2) Dark Sun, 3) Mystara. But like @Micah Sweet, I'm not convinced that the output would actually be good. Yet irrespective of the quality, this should open up the settings for DM's Guild, and thus maybe also 3rd party products that are more to my liking.


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## Uni-the-Unicorn!

Micah Sweet said:


> I don't understand what you mean.  What's true of the whole game?  I'm talking about settings and, by extension, fictional worlds, not rule sets (if that's what you're referring to).



You said the only reason for a reboot was financial and I agree. I also added that is the only reason for the game at all. They do it to make money.


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## Digdude@1970

Haplo781 said:


> I'd personally rather see this addressed by an Eldraine book (MtG setting). Which is coincidentally getting a revisit next year.



I never heard of this setting, interesting.


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## Digdude@1970

Blue Orange said:


> Birthright's going to get tricky with the magic bloodlines.
> 
> I doubt Greyhawk has much of a fanbase outside of grognards, sadly. It's just not different enough from the other fantasy settings. Same with Mystara (though the fanbase is a little younger--_Moyenne Garde_ perhaps?).
> 
> My money's on Dark Sun.



No way this ever happens with all the recent slavery reference in content.


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## JEB

Digdude@1970 said:


> No way this ever happens with all the recent slavery reference in content.



Unless they radically overhaul it - which Spelljammer's "Doomspace" was likely an attempt to do (that they thought better of).


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## Micah Sweet

Uni-the-Unicorn! said:


> You said the only reason for a reboot was financial and I agree. I also added that is the only reason for the game at all. They do it to make money.



There are better ways to make money, even for a publishing company, than to create an RPG.


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## Uni-the-Unicorn!

Micah Sweet said:


> There are better ways to make money, even for a publishing company, than to create an RPG.


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## Yaarel

For the 2024 anniversary, I want local settings for both Blackmoor and Greyhawk, the towns only.

Greyhawk is a medievalesque version of bustling city Chicago. Blackmoor is something like remote town Churchill, Canada, on the Hudson Bay.



I love some of the Oerth setting concepts but fear it cannot be done for todays ethical sensibilities without fundamentally altering the original. For example, its corresponding Indigenous of Central and South Americas, are actually White people Suel who are the origin of these Indigenous, as well as Scarlet Brotherhood N*zi ideology, and nonhistorical brutish Conan-the-Barbarian stereotypes of reallife Nordic peoples, including Viking Period.

There is no way these can enter 2024 without serious backlash, even legal responses.


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## Yaarel

AnotherGuy said:


> Also Mystara would be a landmine when it came to sensitivity content.



This.


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## Tonguez

Digdude@1970 said:


> I never heard of this setting, interesting.



Eldraine is King Arthur in a Fairytale world. It features 5 ‘human” Realms (One ruled by a giant) plus a number of Wild locations inhabited by fairytale creatures (including elves, dwarfs, goblins, trolls, giants, faeries and dragons)









						Eldraine
					

Eldraine (pronounced EL-drain) is a plane introduced in the Throne of Eldraine set and described in Kate Elliott's The Wildered Quest. Eldraine is a medieval world filled with knights, castles, and magical creatures. Wild magic is woven through the heart of the plane and two opposing but...




					mtg.fandom.com


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## TwiceBorn2

1. Greyhawk
2. Dark Sun
3. Birthright
4. Mystara


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## Blue Orange

Digdude@1970 said:


> No way this ever happens with all the recent slavery reference in content.




That's an excellent point. From what I remember of Dark Sun, though, isn't slavery practiced by the evil dragon kings, and isn't one of the main narrative arcs of the video games the struggle _against_ slavery? It's a little disturbing you can't have a setting with an _anti_-slavery theme, especially as it's something almost every group's had done to it at some point, and most people throughout history were serfs. (The Brits were slaves of the Romans, for instance...)


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## Micah Sweet

Blue Orange said:


> That's an excellent point. From what I remember of Dark Sun, though, isn't slavery practiced by the evil dragon kings, and isn't one of the main narrative arcs of the video games the struggle _against_ slavery? It's a little disturbing you can't have a setting with an _anti_-slavery theme, especially as it's something almost every group's had done to it at some point, and most people throughout history were serfs. (The Brits were slaves of the Romans, for instance...)



Apparently, we're no longer allowed to mention unpleasant things that have ever happened to real life people in any context.


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## Mind of tempest

honestly, I do not care as long as we get some new iconic things from them like well-built races and maybe a new class as iconic for a setting helps and those would also get people to buy the books even if they hate the setting.


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## Mind of tempest

Micah Sweet said:


> Apparently, we're no longer allowed to mention unpleasant things that have ever happened to real life people in any context.



we literally could not have a game then or at least it would have to mutate into something beyond any type of game that presently exists.


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## Micah Sweet

Mind of tempest said:


> we literally could not have a game then or at least it would have to mutate into something beyond any type of game that presently exists.



Certainly I'm engaging in hyperbole, but things have definitely been trending this direction of late.


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## Mind of tempest

Micah Sweet said:


> Certainly I'm engaging in hyperbole, but things have definitely been trending this direction of late.



it is more a sign of the time give it forty years at it will have cooled off in one of many ways.


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## Uni-the-Unicorn!

Micah Sweet said:


> Apparently, we're no longer allowed to mention unpleasant things that have ever happened to real life people in any context.



That is not true. They still discuss slavery after all. The current issue with the Hadozee was beyond simply slavery. I would hope you are able to realize that, but either you don’t or you feel it is more important to take cheap shots. Either way I am not sure you’re someone I want to engage with anymore.


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## Micah Sweet

Uni-the-Unicorn! said:


> That is not true. They still discuss slavery after all. The current issue with the Hadozee was beyond simply slavery. I would hope you are able to realize that, but either you don’t or you feel it is more important to take cheap shots. Either way I am not sure you’re someone I want to engage with anymore.



I was talking Dark Sun, and the unlikelihood of slavery being part of a 5e version of the setting even as an evil to fight against.  Not about the hadozee issue, which actually does have some real problems.


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## Mind of tempest

Uni-the-Unicorn! said:


> That is not true. They still discuss slavery after all. The current issue with the Hadozee was beyond simply slavery. I would hope you are able to realize that, but either you don’t or you feel it is more important to take cheap shots. Either way I am not sure you’re someone I want to engage with anymore.



I think there are actors on Twitter who would want to remove all mentions of slaver for example for assorted reasons but it is likely they are just a really small group who happens to be super loud, personally, I want more variety to my evil factions if only so I can fight things other than cults and slavers need some variety of motivation.


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## Micah Sweet

Mind of tempest said:


> I think there are actors on Twitter who would want to remove all mentions of slaver for example for assorted reasons but it is likely they are just a really small group who happens to be super loud, personally, I want more variety to my evil factions if only so I can fight things other than cults and slavers need some variety of motivation.



To be fair, it's a really small group that seems to include all of Paizo.


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## Blue

I believe the spirit of this is what setting do you want to see, so I'll vote that way.  But really, I don't want it "next" unless that's after the 2024 Anniversary edition to make sure it has a long usable life.

I think at this point it's Greyhawk.  While Dark Sun is one of my favorites, I've played multiple campaigns in it.  And while I started back with Moldvay's Red Box Basic set, I've never really played in Greyhawk except as default for some of the old modules.  Never got a chance to explore it as a setting.


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## Mecheon

Mind of tempest said:


> personally, I want more variety to my evil factions if only so I can fight things other than cults and slavers need some variety of motivation.



Y'know, I just went and fished up this brilliant tumblr meme that both celebrates some good games and gives ideas for this! 

(though uh, good luck if you do go this route)


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## South by Southwest

Mecheon said:


> Y'know, I just went and fished up this brilliant tumblr meme that both celebrates some good games and gives ideas for this!



An evil never sympathetic isn't much of a threat. Goethe understood this, and so should we.


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## Uni-the-Unicorn!

Micah Sweet said:


> I was talking Dark Sun, and the unlikelihood of slavery being part of a 5e version of the setting even as an evil to fight against.  Not about the hadozee issue, which actually does have some real problems.



No you weren’t because that hasn’t been rebooted. What you wrote could only be construed to b relating to what has been issued.


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## Micah Sweet

Uni-the-Unicorn! said:


> No you weren’t because that hasn’t been rebooted. What you wrote could only be construed to b relating to what has been issued.



Incorrect.  I was referring to Dark Sun, which appears to have almost been rebooted, with the Doomspace thing in Spelljammer.  I still think that, if they ever pull the trigger on that, all reference to slavery, even in the properly negative context, will be eliminated.

I can see where you misunderstood me, however, and apologize for being unclear.


----------



## Haplo781

Biggest surprise here is probably the strong showing for Birthright at #4.


----------



## TwiceBorn2

Haplo781 said:


> Biggest surprise here is probably the strong showing for Birthright at #4.



It's currently my third choice, but it wouldn't take much to convince me to make it my #1 choice.


----------



## Yaarel

5e Modern, or better yet near future, would be awesome. With techno Paladin police officers and so on.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Yaarel said:


> 5e Modern, or better yet near future, would be awesome. With techno Paladin police officers and so on.



Ultramodern for 5e covers a lot of this.  Its a major component of my homebrew.


----------



## Haplo781

Micah Sweet said:


> Ultramodern for 5e covers a lot of this.  Its a major component of my homebrew.



I would love to specifically see Urban Arcana from d20 Modern, but that wasn't really a D&D setting.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Haplo781 said:


> I would love to specifically see Urban Arcana from d20 Modern, but that wasn't really a D&D setting.



Conversion would be cool though.


----------



## Hriston

I'm not interested in canned settings at this point, not even homebrew. I'd rather the setting emerge during gameplay, so I chose "other".


----------



## R_J_K75

I'd prefer they don't bother updating any legacy settings anymore. I'd much rather have a new setting that's actually supported with more than one book. If they're going to do one though I'd like to see a proper FR book.  If they're going to have a default setting, then just stick to that.


----------



## Parmandur

South by Southwest said:


> Now that we know _Planescape_ is coming, I voted for both _Greyhawk_ and _Dark Sun_ (technically listed as <Other>), but with the _proviso_ that I want them only on condition that neither they nor _Planescape_ are treated the way _Spelljammer_ apparently was. A proper campaign setting is large, robust, detailed, and robustly imaginative; it need not include any "starter" adventures or even any explicit adventure hooks, but writers who want to include such certainly can. The setting itself, though, needs to be as expansive and encompassing as the world it describes. DM screens are cute, fun, and useful (assuming essential charts, maps, _etc._ are on their interiors), but they do not count as part of the setting.
> 
> I want a return to the true campaign setting; give me those and I'll be happy.



They already announced that the Planescape project is formatted exactly like Spelljammer: a slipcase with a campaign guide, a bestiary, and an adventure book.

It is passing lyrics likely thst future Setting products will look like thst, or like the Drsgonlance AP.


----------



## Parmandur

I'd like to see a Greyhawk product, that takes just the original Setting guide and updates it for a modern audience, includes weird old pulpy monsters to get thar 1E wooly ztyle...and Castle Greyhawk as a campaign.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Micah Sweet said:


> Apparently, we're no longer allowed to mention unpleasant things that have ever happened to real life people in any context.





Micah Sweet said:


> I was talking Dark Sun, and the unlikelihood of slavery being part of a 5e version of the setting even as an evil to fight against.  Not about the hadozee issue, which actually does have some real problems.



Neogi and Mind Flayers are still slavers. So are Duergar, Drow, and plenty of other enemies in D&D. I don't think the problem is slavery, I think it's whether or not WotC can avoid stumbling into a bad trope with the slavery. And if slavery is the issue, they can change it to be more like indentured servitude, which is a type of slavery and is already kind of similar to how slavery works on Dark Sun.


----------



## Haplo781

Levistus's_Leviathan said:


> Neogi and Mind Flayers are still slavers. So are Duergar, Drow, and plenty of other enemies in D&D. I don't think the problem is slavery, I think it's whether or not WotC can avoid stumbling into a bad trope with the slavery. And if slavery is the issue, they can change it to be more like indentured servitude, which is a type of slavery and is already kind of similar to how slavery works on Dark Sun.



Yeah - they can ditch the open-air slave markets and keep the "prisoners with jobs" aspect.


----------



## James Gasik

Efreeti still enslave the Azer in the City of Brass, right?


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

James Gasik said:


> Efreeti still enslave the Azer in the City of Brass, right?



Yep.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Levistus's_Leviathan said:


> Yep.



I hope you guys are right, and they find a way to keep some of the hard stuff in an acceptable way.  You're certainly right about Spelljammer, and I should have taken that into account.  We won't really know about a lot of this stuff until the new MM and the monster lore it does or doesn't have is released.


----------



## South by Southwest

Parmandur said:


> They already announced that the Planescape project is formatted exactly like Spelljammer: a slipcase with a campaign guide, a bestiary, and an adventure book.
> 
> It is passing lyrics likely thst future Setting products will look like thst, or like the Drsgonlance AP.



I don't mind them including those things; I just want them to do a much better job on the setting book. So long as that happens, I'll be happy.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Micah Sweet said:


> I hope you guys are right, and they find a way to keep some of the hard stuff in an acceptable way.  You're certainly right about Spelljammer, and I should have taken that into account.  We won't really know about a lot of this stuff until the new MM and the monster lore it does or doesn't have is released.



I would be extremely surprised if they removed slavery entirely from the game. That's a major part of what makes Mind Flayers (one of D&D's most iconic monsters) so scary.


----------



## Haplo781

Honestly the biggest problem with Dark Sun is the lack of psionics.


----------



## Parmandur

South by Southwest said:


> I don't mind them including those things; I just want them to do a much better job on the setting book. So long as that happens, I'll be happy.



The real big problem (other than needing a sensitivity reader) is the length: a slightly longer book (read more carefully) would have hit it out if the park, rather than being a base hit.


----------



## JEB

Levistus's_Leviathan said:


> I would be extremely surprised if they removed slavery entirely from the game.



Paizo is no longer featuring slavery in its products, which makes it awkward for Wizards to do less. The recent hadozee situation is only going to increase scrutiny on their treatment of the subject. So at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they take the safest path, and just avoid the matter altogether. We'll see, I suppose.


----------



## Yaarel

Parmandur said:


> I'd like to see a Greyhawk product, that takes *just *the original Setting guide and updates it for a modern audience, includes weird old pulpy monsters to get thar 1E wooly ztyle...and Castle Greyhawk as a campaign.



Heh, so simple to "just" do this!

But I do think it is easier to clean up the culture of a town, rather than the cultures of an entire planet.

So, I am still hoping for the City of Greyhawk and the Town of Blackmoor to be doable for 2024.

Make it easy to import these local settings into any campaign world.

Mention the pulpy monsters.


----------



## Marandahir

I'm surprised so many Greyhawk votes.

Dark Sun is far and away the most unique and interesting setting still needing updates for D&D 5e after we're done with Planescape.
Though I wouldn't be opposed to Birthright, and Council of Wyrms re-set within Io'mandra would just be AWESOME.

And Nerath / PoLand / Nentir Vale / Bael Turath / Arkhosia / Karkhoth / Iron Circle / Vailen would be fun to revisit, though its inclusion of classic Greyhawk locations and adventures and alternate cosmology / role for the Raven Queen makes its compatibility with both Planescape and Spelljammer very awkward…


----------



## Haplo781

Marandahir said:


> I'm surprised so many Greyhawk votes.
> 
> Dark Sun is far and away the most unique and interesting setting still needing updates for D&D 5e after we're done with Planescape.
> Though I wouldn't be opposed to Birthright, and Council of Wyrms re-set within Io'mandra would just be AWESOME.
> 
> And Nerath / PoLand / Nentir Vale / Bael Turath / Arkhosia / Karkhoth / Iron Circle / Vailen would be fun to revisit, though its inclusion of classic Greyhawk locations and adventures and alternate cosmology / role for the Raven Queen makes its compatibility with both Planescape and Spelljammer very awkward…



The classic Greyhawk locations are pretty much only in the board game's map, which is of dubious canonicity.


----------



## JEB

Marandahir said:


> And Nerath / PoLand / Nentir Vale / Bael Turath / Arkhosia / Karkhoth / Iron Circle / Vailen would be fun to revisit, though its inclusion of classic Greyhawk locations and adventures and alternate cosmology / role for the Raven Queen makes its compatibility with both Planescape and Spelljammer very awkward…



Nah, it's quite manageable. Nentir Vale just happened to get more echoes of the First World than the other settings. And pretty much every element of the 4E cosmology now has a 5E analogue (Spelljammer reintroduced astral dominions), plus Wildemount also riffs off it.

Alternatively, as I've suggested before, Nerath _is_ the First World...


----------



## Marandahir

Haplo781 said:


> The classic Greyhawk locations are pretty much only in the board game's map, which is of dubious canonicity.



It's canon. Remember, in 4e, everything released by Wizards was canon.

The creator of the Nerath setting ran a series of articles in _Dragon_ called _Nerathi Legends_, which detailed various locations from the board game. And the map in the board game interlinks with various modules released, as well as the design art and details for the setting from the 2007 preview books.


----------



## Yaarel

JEB said:


> Alternatively, as I've suggested before, Nerath _is_ the First World...



Huh. That can make sense for a number of reasons.



One concern is, Nerath should be uncharted. So the DM has a blank canvas to fill in as the players explore beyond the town where they started at level 1.

Possibly, the First World is dimensionally unstable ... meaning, it is canon for each table to create their own locations within the Nerath setting that other tables may or may not share.

So, First World is existentially a points of light campaign. Each table determines where those luminaries within the darkness are.



Flavorwise, the instability of Nerath might relate to how the First World split into many different worlds.


----------



## Haplo781

Marandahir said:


> It's canon. Remember, in 4e, everything released by Wizards was canon.
> 
> The creator of the Nerath setting ran a series of articles in _Dragon_ called _Nerathi Legends_, which detailed various locations from the board game. And the map in the board game interlinks with various modules released, as well as the design art and details for the setting from the 2007 preview books.



The map of the Trollhaunt from P1 doesn't match up to the Trollhaunt area in the board game, so they can't both be canon.

Also, Wizards never said "everything is canon." They said "everything is _core_," meaning that all rules elements (races, classes, feats, etc.) were assumed to be equally valid in all settings.


----------



## Haplo781

JEB said:


> Nah, it's quite manageable. Nentir Vale just happened to get more echoes of the First World than the other settings. And pretty much every element of the 4E cosmology now has a 5E analogue (Spelljammer reintroduced astral dominions), plus Wildemount also riffs off it.
> 
> Alternatively, as I've suggested before, Nerath _is_ the First World...



The First World is _Iomandra._


----------



## Yaarel

Haplo781 said:


> The First World is _Iomandra._



Actually, "Nerath" is only a region within the world. Other regions include "Iron Circle", "Karkoth", and "Vailin".

These might be regions within Iomandra, the homebrew world of Perkins.

If I understand correctly, Io is part of the 4e Nerath setting, being the source of both Bahamut and Tiamat.

Iomandra could be the name of the 4e world setting.


----------



## Haplo781

Yaarel said:


> Actually, "Nerath" is only a region within the world. Other regions include "Iron Circle", "Karkoth", and "Vailin".
> 
> These might be regions within Iomandra, the homebrew world of Perkins.



Iomandra and Nentir Vale are two completely different worlds. The lore is incompatible.


----------



## Yaarel

Haplo781 said:


> Iomandra and Nentir Vale are two completely different worlds. The lore is incompatible.



How do you know? Iomandra is the personal homebrew by Perkins. It is whatever he wants it to be. The map of Iomandra is a region of islands, that can also be part of the same planet as the region of Nerath.

The lore of First World and the Dawn War is sketchy and often officially ambiguous.

The map of Nerath is intentionally fill-in-the-blanks.


----------



## Haplo781

Yaarel said:


> How do you know?



Because I've actually read all the published lore for both.


----------



## Yaarel

Haplo781 said:


> Because I've actually read all the published lore for both.



Cite the texts that you have in mind.

I am less familiar with Perkins world. But since it has Io, it probably relates to the Dawn War and the First World.


----------



## Yaarel

This text about Iomandra comes from a fan site: (So treat any sensitive subject matter like slavery cautiously.) It sure sounds like First World. It also sounds like 4e Nerath.



"
According to legend, Io consorted with primordial beings to create Iomandra as a playground for dragons.

Other gods flattered Io with praise for his design even as they were crafting worlds of their own, improving on his work. Io studied with envy the works of his divine peers, took note of the various humanoid races they’d created, and decided that his world needed such creatures to serve and amuse his dragons.

Io negotiated with his fellow gods to bring humans, eladrin, elves, dwarves, halflings, and other races to the world — but none of them felt quite right to him. With the help of his children, Io crafted a humanoid race modeled after dragonkind and called them the dragonborn.

The dragonborn were given every advantage, and with the help of the dragons they conquered and enslaved Iomandra’s other sentient humanoid races. The humans of Iomandra proved the most difficult to enslave; one kingdom in particular forged infernal pacts with devils in return for great power, thus birthing the tiefling race.

However, even such desperate measures could not protect them from the awesome might of the dragonborn and their dragon masters. Their empires stretched across the vast continents of the world.


The covetous dragonborn empires eventually turned on one another. Petty rivalries and territorial disputes led to wars and horrible bloodshed.

At the same time, slave revolts threatened to break the dynasties’ hold over the “lesser” races of Iomandra. To maintain order and restore paradise, Io sent his godling children to rule the great continents on his behalf, but they too became corrupt and tried to usurp each other’s power.

Three of Io’s children perished in this world-shaking feud. Furious, Io recalled to the heavens his two surviving children — Bahamut and Tiamat — and unleashed a maelstrom that would sink the continents of Iomandra beneath the sea.

Not everything was destroyed, however. In defiance of their father, Bahamut and Tiamat intervened and prevented the lands from sinking completely. Their intervention created islands around the globe where the world’s remaining inhabitants could survive and prosper.

Moved by his children’s demonstration of unity, Io left the world in their custody. However, Bahamut and Tiamat would never again see eye to eye, and to this day, each seeks to break the other’s influence.

Iomandra of the “modern day” is a watery world peppered with islands of every size and ecosystem.

"


Note, the map of Nertath and elsewhere is irregularly small. It may well be these are islands on a mainly watery planet.






Here is the region of islands in Iomandra.






These can be regions of the same planet.


----------



## Parmandur

Marandahir said:


> I'm surprised so many Greyhawk votes.
> 
> Dark Sun is far and away the most unique and interesting setting still needing updates for D&D 5e after we're done with Planescape.
> Though I wouldn't be opposed to Birthright, and Council of Wyrms re-set within Io'mandra would just be AWESOME.
> 
> And Nerath / PoLand / Nentir Vale / Bael Turath / Arkhosia / Karkhoth / Iron Circle / Vailen would be fun to revisit, though its inclusion of classic Greyhawk locations and adventures and alternate cosmology / role for the Raven Queen makes its compatibility with both Planescape and Spelljammer very awkward…



"Uniqueness" and "interesting" aren't necessarily the best for a RPG product: tropes are useful. The recent AD&D sales numbers revelations show that Hreyhawk outsold Dark Sun several times over, so it6not surprising more fans still hold a touch for it.


----------



## Yaarel

Regarding the map of 4e Nerath. The entire map is only about 1200 miles vertically. This is roughly the distance from New York to Miami, or double the length of the island of Britain.

Much of the planet remains uncharted. It might comprise islands in a watery planet.


----------



## schneeland

R_J_K75 said:


> I'd prefer they don't bother updating any legacy settings anymore. I'd much rather have a new setting that's actually supported with more than one book. If they're going to do one though I'd like to see a proper FR book.  If they're going to have a default setting, then just stick to that.



The only drawback if they don't publish old settings anymore is that they are not opened up for 3rd party content on DM's guild. But I guess that could be changed.
That being said, having something like "City of Greyhawk" or "(Village of) Blackmoor" as brought up by @Yaarel would probably be enough (since they opened up Ravenloft once "Curse of Strahd" was released if I remember correctly). And maybe such focused books would actually be decent.


----------



## Parmandur

Yaarel said:


> Heh, so simple to "just" do this!
> 
> But I do think it is easier to clean up the culture of a town, rather than the cultures of an entire planet.
> 
> So, I am still hoping for the City of Greyhawk and the Town of Blackmoor to be doable for 2024.
> 
> Make it easy to import these local settings into any campaign world.
> 
> Mention the pulpy monsters.



The original Flannaes are not that large, and the page count was sparse. I don't even thinknit would need that much updating, frankly.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Parmandur said:


> The original Flannaes are not that large, and the page count was sparse. I don't even thinknit would need that much updating, frankly.



That's a good point.  What in Greyhawk actually needs to be updated at all?  Its not like it has unique player options like Dark Sun does.


----------



## Parmandur

Micah Sweet said:


> That's a good point.  What in Greyhawk actually needs to be updated at all?  Its not like it has unique player options like Dark Sun does.



A lot of the Human ethnography stuff could use some nuance and reworking, frankly, but nothing worse than material thar WotC publishes in the last two weeks.


----------



## R_J_K75

schneeland said:


> That being said, having something like "City of Greyhawk" or "(Village of) Blackmoor"



If WotC insists on campaign settings supplements I too would prefer more concise, localized books rather than full settings and adventures.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Parmandur said:


> A lot of the Human ethnography stuff could use some nuance and reworking, frankly, but nothing worse than material thar WotC publishes in the last two weeks.



Sure, but there are no mechanical updates needed, so there's nothing to sell a book to the degree WotC wants.  People who don't like Dark Sun may well buy a Dark Sun book for the psionics rules, for example.

I don't see modern sensibility lore updates as being worth publishing without new mechanics to back it up, even if you're the kind of person who cares about that sort of thing enough to have WotC make those changes for you.


----------



## Parmandur

Micah Sweet said:


> Sure, but there are no mechanical updates needed, so there's nothing to sell a book to the degree WotC wants.  People who don't like Dark Sun may well buy a Dark Sun book for the psionics rules, for example.
> 
> I don't see modern sensibility lore updates as being worth publishing without new mechanics to back it up, even if you're the kind of person who cares about that sort of thing enough to have WotC make those changes for you.



I mean,  they don't sell books based on crunch, they sell them based on campaign building material (Adventures, generation tables, Lore, etc.).


----------



## Micah Sweet

Parmandur said:


> I mean,  they don't sell books based on crunch, they sell them based on campaign building material (Adventures, generation tables, Lore, etc.).



The way I see it, they publish based on setting material, but they sell them based on players and DMs wanting new widgets for their games.  By which I mean, that where the money is.


----------



## Parmandur

Micah Sweet said:


> The way I see it, they publish based on setting material, but they sell them based on players and DMs wanting new widgets for their games.  By which I mean, that where the money is.



Based on what they publish, the money seems to be in Adventure material: even the Settong products are becoming increasingly Adventure centric.


----------



## Mind of tempest

Parmandur said:


> Based on what they publish, the money seems to be in Adventure material: even the Settong products are becoming increasingly Adventure centric.



from what I hear that is backwards adventures being the least popular with option books selling best of all?


----------



## Clint_L

I mean, it's gotta be Greyhawk, for the 50th anniversary, doesn't it? Making sure to include the Blackmoor region, with plenty of Easter eggs for Arneson, Gygax, and company.


----------



## Parmandur

Mind of tempest said:


> from what I hear that is backwards adventures being the least popular with option books selling best of all?



The Adventure products jump to the top of the charts on release, and keep selling. We have reports on this forum of small store owners who keep on selling older Adventures. Xanathar's and Tasha's sell well, but they only put out the two of them in the 10 year span of 5E, as opposed to 23 largely Adventure products by the end of 2023.


----------



## Muso

Birthright was so nice. Unfortunately it come out when TSR was already doomed. In my opinion it had a lot of possibilities.


----------



## Haplo781

Maybe some old-school themed subclasses for Greyhawk? Warrior, Priest, Cutthroat and Mage. Cutthroat Rogue could have the ability to climb sheer surfaces, hide in shadows, move silently, and read languages they don't know. Maybe the Warrior Fighter has something riffing on Exceptional Strength, etc.


----------



## Yaarel

Parmandur said:


> The original Flannaes are not that large, and the page count was sparse. I don't even thinknit would need that much updating, frankly.



The Flan are Indigenous in US and Canada.

Fortunately, Gygax descriptions of Flan seem mostly respectful. But a 5e update needs to have Indigenous sensitivity consults to avoid problems, such as depictions that blend in Euro cultures with Indigenous ones. In principle, I assume artists can blend any cultures, but mustnt venture in blindly because there necessarily will be problems, and some wont be obvious.

Notice the problematic portrayals of the Indigenous in Central America (Amedio) and South America (Hepmonaland), who are said to be Suel Whites who lost their White-ness.

To delete Suel from the Greyhawk setting deletes MANY problems in the setting.

But how many Greyhawk fans would be ok with that?


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

CleverNickName said:


> Mystara (including Red Steel and Hollow World) >> Greyhawk > Other (Pelinor) > Birthright > Other (Lankhmar) > Ghostwalk, Dark Sun, Council of Worms, Nentir Vale, and all the rest that I've never played.



Goodman Games has the Lankhmar license now. They're putting out their first 5E stuff for it next year.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Yaarel said:


> To delete Suel from the Greyhawk setting deletes MANY problems in the setting.
> 
> But how many Greyhawk fans would be ok with that?



So far, they're largely steering away from world-spanning settings in 5E. They could easily zoom in on a highly gameable area of Oerth and leave the rest undetailed. 

The Free City of Greyhawk is an obvious place to pick. The Great Kingdom, the Pomarj, the Bandit Kingdoms and the Lendore Isles are also all great places to zoom in on that could easily host everything from low level adventures through 1-20 campaigns.

Likewise, instead of producing "Mystara," WotC -- on the remote chance they were to revisit the setting -- would be best off doing Karameikos, Glantri or Darokin, which also means they could sidestep most of the setting's issues.


----------



## Haplo781

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> So far, they're largely steering away from world-spanning settings in 5E. They could easily zoom in on a highly gameable area of Oerth and leave the rest undetailed.
> 
> The Free City of Greyhawk is an obvious place to pick. The Great Kingdom, the Pomarj, the Bandit Kingdoms and the Lendore Isles are also all great places to zoom in on that could easily host everything from low level adventures through 1-20 campaigns.
> 
> Likewise, instead of producing "Mystara," WotC -- on the remote chance they were to revisit the setting -- would be best off doing Karameikos, Glantri or Darokin, which also means they could sidestep most of the setting's issues.



Or Savage Coast.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Yaarel said:


> The Flan are Indigenous in US and Canada.
> 
> Fortunately, Gygax descriptions of Flan seem mostly respectful. But a 5e update needs to have Indigenous sensitivity consults to avoid problems, such as depictions that blend in Euro cultures with Indigenous ones. In principle, I assume artists can blend any cultures, but mustnt venture in blindly because there necessarily will be problems, and some wont be obvious.
> 
> Notice the problematic portrayals of the Indigenous in Central America (Amedio) and South America (Hepmonaland), who are said to be Suel Whites who lost their White-ness.
> 
> To delete Suel from the Greyhawk setting deletes MANY problems in the setting.
> 
> But how many Greyhawk fans would be ok with that?



Combine that with the earlier point that really aren't any game mechanics to add, and I conclude that there's just no worthwhile reason to update Greyhawk.


----------



## Yaarel

Haplo781 said:


> Or Savage Coast.



Even the name "savage" is highly problematic.

My familiarity with it specifically means a savage animal, hence ferocious and aggressive.

Unfortunately, there was a (highly racist) anthropological use of the term to mean a nonliterate aboriginal culture.

The word itself can dehumanize, especially if referring vaguely to a "savage coast", where the savages probably refer to humans or humanoids.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Micah Sweet said:


> Combine that with the earlier point that really aren't any game mechanics to add, and I conclude that there's just no worthwhile reason to update Greyhawk.



Greyhawk would be purely a nostalgia play for the 50th anniversary. If it doesn't show up in 2024, it's not showing up.


----------



## Haplo781

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Greyhawk would be purely a nostalgia play for the 50th anniversary. If it doesn't show up in 2024, it's not showing up.



Could make it the default setting again.


----------



## Mecheon

Haplo781 said:


> Could make it the default setting again.



Why, though?

FR's the one that your average person is going to know, its the one with the massive amount of popular games to it (With only PS: Torment being an exception), its the one with the known books, its the one that can freely admit any of the various new races and stuff, its the one that an average person would think "Ah yes, Dungeons and Dragons" about.

Greyhawk's only appeal is to the nostalgia crowd. It doesn't have any draw over what FR can do, plus every time someone suggests adding in new player option I'm told this'll destroy everything that makes Greyhawk Greyhawk and we should just be fine with the default four (And maybe gnomes if they're feeling generous)

"You can't play as the fun player options that people specifically want to play and enjoy playing" is not what I'd call a good draw


----------



## Parmandur

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Greyhawk would be purely a nostalgia play for the 50th anniversary. If it doesn't show up in 2024, it's not showing up.



Well, Winninger has said that a Setting previously covered in 5E is up for a "revisit" in 2024, and the three likely ca dilated are Forgotten Realms (obviously), Eberron (plausible, a surprising percentage of the mechanics not being updated between Monsters of the Multiverse and the new Core are Eberron specific, also a 20th anniversary), and Greyhawk (Ghoats of Saltmarsh, 50th anniversary nostalgia play).

I do agree.it is unlikely if not done in 2024, but it is a strong contender.


----------



## Parmandur

Mecheon said:


> Why, though?
> 
> FR's the one that your average person is going to know, its the one with the massive amount of popular games to it (With only PS: Torment being an exception), its the one with the known books, its the one that can freely admit any of the various new races and stuff, its the one that an average person would think "Ah yes, Dungeons and Dragons" about.
> 
> Greyhawk's only appeal is to the nostalgia crowd. It doesn't have any draw over what FR can do, plus every time someone suggests adding in new player option I'm told this'll destroy everything that makes Greyhawk Greyhawk and we should just be fine with the default four (And maybe gnomes if they're feeling generous)
> 
> "You can't play as the fun player options that people specifically want to play and enjoy playing" is not what I'd call a good draw



The spoiler.play here for OneD&D purposes are Feats. With Feats moving into Core and being ventral to Background, options that are a bit more specific than those in the PHB are wide open design space. And Greyhawk has all sorts of 3E nostalgia callbacks that can be done there.


----------



## Remathilis

Thunder Rift. The time is right, we have the technology, children are the future!


----------



## Haplo781

Yaarel said:


> Even the name "savage" is highly problematic.
> 
> My familiarity with it specifically means a savage animal, hence ferocious and aggressive.
> 
> Unfortunately, there was a (highly racist) anthropological use of the term to mean a nonliterate aboriginal culture.
> 
> The word itself can dehumanize, especially if referring vaguely to a "savage coast", where the savages probably refer to humans or humanoids.



It's also known as the Orc's Head Peninsula. Could go with that.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Haplo781 said:


> Could make it the default setting again.



They could. But they won't.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Remathilis said:


> Thunder Rift. The time is right, we have the technology, children are the future!



I would love to see this as a standalone starter setting, although it seems like they want Phandelver and the Sword Coast to serve that role.

As always: WotC, please open up these settings you won't ever use on DMs Guild.


----------



## Maxperson

I would be good with Darksun, Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms, as long as we get a real setting and not the snippets of one we got with Spelljammer.


----------



## Clint_L

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Greyhawk would be purely a nostalgia play for the 50th anniversary. If it doesn't show up in 2024, it's not showing up.



It's been released in multiple editions, so not sure why you assert that it would be "purely" nostalgia. Obviously, a celebration of the original setting would be more than apt for the 50th anniversary, but it is also a great setting that spawned a ton of adventures that are still played.


----------



## Haplo781

Clint_L said:


> It's been released in multiple editions, so not sure why you assert that it would be "purely" nostalgia. Obviously, a celebration of the original setting would be more than apt for the 50th anniversary, but it is also a great setting that spawned a ton of adventures that are still played.



Adventure anthology + DM's Guild support might be the way to to go.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Clint_L said:


> It's been released in multiple editions, so not sure why you assert that it would be "purely" nostalgia.



Because WotC has explicitly said they are putting out new settings because they offer a new-to-this-edition playstyle. This was explicitly said in reference to Theros and Strixhaven, but it was stated as a general principles.

Now, my first D&D setting with the Greyhawk Folio, but it's wishful thinking to say that the kind of adventures that take place on Oerth are, generally speaking, very different than those that take place in the Forgotten Realms, generally speaking. (Yes, we can definitely find some corner cases where each setting is unique -- ISLAND OF THE FLYING MONKEYS! -- but this is a general statement.)

WotC are also the beneficiaries of TSR losing money by putting out settings that competed with each other for the same handful of gamer dollars. They're not going to do it again.

The World of Greyhawk is great. I love the World of Greyhawk. But by WotC's definition, there's not enough in the setting to make it a distinct, non-competing setting when compared to the 800 lb. gorilla of the Forgotten Realms, which they have invested, relatively speaking, a lot of time and energy in.

So, what does have Greyhawk have to offer that might be commercially compelling for WotC? 50th anniversary nostalgia, especially if they can convince Gail Gyxax to let them use some of the material she's sitting on.

But in 2022, 2023, 2025, it's a setting that competes with the Forgotten Realms. So a no go.

(That said, if it's not already unlocked on the DMs Guild, WotC ought to do so, ASAP.)


----------



## Haplo781

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Because WotC has explicitly said they are putting out new settings because they offer a new-to-this-edition playstyle. This was explicitly said in reference to Theros and Strixhaven, but it was stated as a general principles.
> 
> Now, my first D&D setting with the Greyhawk Folio, but is wishful thinking to say that the kind of adventures that take place on Oerth are, generally speaking, very different than those that take place in the Forgotten Realms, generally speaking. (Yes, we can definitely find some corner cases where each setting is unique -- ISLAND OF THE FLYING MONKEYS! -- but this is a general statement.)
> 
> WotC are also the beneficiaries of TSR losing money by putting out settings that competed with each other for the same handful of gamer dollars. They're not going to do it again.
> 
> The World of Greyhawk is great. I love the World of Greyhawk, but by WotC's definition, there's not enough in the setting to make it a distinct, non-competing setting when compared to the 800 lb. gorilla of the Forgotten Realms, which they have invested, relatively speaking, a lot of time and energy in.
> 
> So, what does have Greyhawk have to offer that might be commercially compelling for WotC? 50th anniversary nostalgia, especially if they can convince Gail Greyhawk to let them use some of the material she's sitting on.
> 
> But in 2022, 2023, 2025, it's a setting that competes with the Forgotten Realms. So a no go.
> 
> (That said, if it's not already unlocked on the DMs Guild, WotC ought to do so, ASAP.)



They specifically exempted Ghosts of Saltmarsh from unlocking it.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Haplo781 said:


> They specifically exempted Ghosts of Saltmarsh from unlocking it.



But that was years ago.  WotC has changed their business plan with D&D since then.  They may have been holding a spot for Greyhawk back then, but I doubt they are now.


----------



## Parmandur

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Because WotC has explicitly said they are putting out new settings because they offer a new-to-this-edition playstyle. This was explicitly said in reference to Theros and Strixhaven, but it was stated as a general principles.
> 
> Now, my first D&D setting with the Greyhawk Folio, but it's wishful thinking to say that the kind of adventures that take place on Oerth are, generally speaking, very different than those that take place in the Forgotten Realms, generally speaking. (Yes, we can definitely find some corner cases where each setting is unique -- ISLAND OF THE FLYING MONKEYS! -- but this is a general statement.)
> 
> WotC are also the beneficiaries of TSR losing money by putting out settings that competed with each other for the same handful of gamer dollars. They're not going to do it again.
> 
> The World of Greyhawk is great. I love the World of Greyhawk. But by WotC's definition, there's not enough in the setting to make it a distinct, non-competing setting when compared to the 800 lb. gorilla of the Forgotten Realms, which they have invested, relatively speaking, a lot of time and energy in.
> 
> So, what does have Greyhawk have to offer that might be commercially compelling for WotC? 50th anniversary nostalgia, especially if they can convince Gail Greyhawk to let them use some of the material she's sitting on.
> 
> But in 2022, 2023, 2025, it's a setting that competes with the Forgotten Realms. So a no go.
> 
> (That said, if it's not already unlocked on the DMs Guild, WotC ought to do so, ASAP.)



Don't underestimate the nostalgia play with. 50 year old property held by an IP obsessed toy manufacturer


----------



## Haplo781

Micah Sweet said:


> But that was years ago.  WotC has changed their business plan with D&D since then.  They may have been holding a spot for Greyhawk back then, but I doubt they are now.



I just think they want to be proprietary. There's nothing stopping them from unlocking Council of Wyrms, which is never getting revisited. But they haven't.


----------



## TwiceBorn2

Yaarel said:


> The Flan are Indigenous in US and Canada.



This is but one interpretation, and not necessarily the one that matches Gygax's original vision. 



Yaarel said:


> Notice the problematic portrayals of the Indigenous in Central America (Amedio) and South America (Hepmonaland), who are said to be Suel Whites who lost their White-ness.



I think you are overlooking the Olman ("Meso American") peoples of the Amedio Jungle, who definitely are not "Suel Whites who lost their Whiteness," as you put it. But both peoples did migrate to the Amedio Jungle from elsewhere (Hepmonaland for the Olman, the Suel Imperium for the "once-Suloise"). The former arguably are more dominant in the area than the latter.


----------



## aia_2

Well, the poll doesn't include the very first setting of rpg history, Blackmoor. I would have voted for it...
But given what someone has done in the past with the revamping of Blackmoor for 3.5, i prefer not to see any further re-edition of the gems of the past (for the announcment of a new edition of Planescape for instance i have bad feelings on the final outcome...).
I second the idea to leave the "good ideas working in the past" as they are and find smtg new for the audience of these days.


----------



## Haplo781

aia_2 said:


> Well, the poll doesn't include the very first setting of rpg history, Blackmoor. I would have voted for it...
> But given what someone has done in the past with the revamping of Blackmoor for 3.5, i prefer not to see any further re-edition of the gems of the past (for the announcment of a new edition of Planescape for instance i have bad feelings on the final outcome...).
> I second the idea to leave the "good ideas working in the past" as they are and find smtg new for the audience of these days.



Didn't Blackmoor get folded into Greyhawk?


----------



## TwiceBorn2

Haplo781 said:


> Didn't Blackmoor get folded into Greyhawk?



It is, in some ways, set in present day Greyhawk, but TSR's Blackmoor products were all set in the past of the Known World (Mystara). And then, there's the 3.0/3.5/4.0 edition that stood more or less on its own.

EDIT: see this link for further info.


----------



## Yaarel

TwiceBorn2 said:


> This is but one interpretation, and not necessarily the one that matches Gygax's original vision.
> 
> 
> I think you are overlooking the Olman ("Meso American") peoples of the Amedio Jungle, who definitely are not "Suel Whites who lost their Whiteness," as you put it. But both peoples did migrate to the Amedio Jungle from elsewhere (Hepmonaland for the Olman, the Suel Imperium for the "once-Suloise"). The former arguably are more dominant in the area than the latter.



To the contrary, Gygax writes the following objectionable text in his World of Greyhawk setting.

"
SULOISE. The fleeing Suel folk were scattered in a broadcast fasshion across the Flanaess, so that many tended to mix with other groups. 

The Suel RACE (!) is very fair-skinned, some almost albino. 

They have light, red, yellow, blond, or platinum hair. Eye color varies from pale blue or violet through deep blue, with gray occasionally occuring. Curly hair is common. 

The inhabitants of the Dutchy of Ernst are nearly PURE Suel RACE (!). 

The Frost, Ice, and Snow BARBARIANS are the BEST example [of racial purity]. 

The Suel folk are quite predominant in the island groups off the eastern coast of the Flanaess [such as the Jerlea Sea] as well as in the [N*zi] SCARLET BROTHERHOOD region.

Those BANDS that migrated into the [Central America] Amedio JUNGLE and [South America] Hepmonaland are so ALTERED (!) as to be no longer typical of the RACE (!): they are TAN to BROWN.

"

Yeah. No.

How does Suel offend? Let me count the ways.


----------



## Yaarel

Haplo781 said:


> Didn't Blackmoor get folded into Greyhawk?



Yes. Blackmoor is a region in the farthest north of the subcontinent Flannaess.

The map marks a location of "Ruins". I suspect Gygax intended for this to be destruction of the Town of Blackmoor, after the personal falling out between Gygax and Arneson. Nevertheless, the relative location of these ruins actually correspond to Ringo Hall, an elven city that is also in the Blackmoor region. The Town of Blackmoor itself is actually to the west on the coast where the peninsula joins the mainland. In other words, the town still exists but remains modest with a small population.


----------



## TwiceBorn2

@Yaarel... I am not disagreeing that the descriptions of the Suel (Amedi and continental) you cited are problematic.

I was merely disagreeing with your characterization of the Flannae as "indigenous peoples from Canada or the US" (which is not necessarily supported by Gygax), and of the Amedi Suel as the main indigenous population of the Amedio Jungle (i.e., you overlook the OLMAN, who are not at all related to the Suel).

"Little is known of the Amedio Jungle, except that it is inhabited by tribes of cannibal savages--*some* purportedly of Suloise extraction or admixture." (Gygax, A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting, 1983, p. 56, emphasis added).

Of course, the reference to "cannibal savages" is itself problematic, and although the Guide appears to have been written by Gygax from the point of view of an unreliable narrator, I can see why WotC would want to avoid that kind of language/depiction today, as well as that referring to the self-perceived "purity" of the Suel.

I won't get into an in-depth discussion of Gygaxian interpretations of the Flannae, so as to not further derail this thread.

p.s.: I don't worship the ground Gygax walks on, nor do I put him or any other game designers (or anyone else) on a pedestal. Just wanting to correct some inaccuracies in your observations is all.


----------



## Yaarel

TwiceBorn2 said:


> @Yaarel... I am not disagreeing that the descriptions of the Suel (Amedi and continental) you cited are problematic.
> 
> I was merely disagreeing with your characterization of the Flannae as "indigenous peoples from Canada or the US" (which is not necessarily supported by Gygax), and of the Amedi Suel as the main indigenous population of the Amedio Jungle (i.e., you overlook the OLMAN, who are not at all related to the Suel).
> 
> "Little is known of the Amedio Jungle, except that it is inhabited by tribes of cannibal savages--*some* purportedly of Suloise extraction or admixture." (Gygax, A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting, 1983, p. 56, emphasis added).
> 
> Of course, the reference to "cannibal savages" is itself problematic, and although the Guide appears to have been written by Gygax from the point of view of an unreliable narrator, I can see why WotC would want to avoid that kind of language/depiction today, as well as that referring to the self-perceived "purity" of the Suel.
> 
> I won't get into an in-depth discussion of Gygaxian interpretations of the Flannae, so as to not further derail this thread.
> 
> p.s.: I don't worship the ground Gygax walks on, nor do I put him or any other game designers (or anyone else) on a pedestal. Just wanting to correct some inaccuracies in your observations is all.



Flannaess drives from the earlier Castles & Crusades map that intentionally stylizes North America. The City of Greyhawk corresponds to Chicago and the Town of Blackmoor corresponds to a remote town on Hudson Bay in Canada, where the town of Churchill is.

The Flan are inspired by the reallife Indigenous of these same locations and elsewhere in North America.

The Flannae are the "native" "tribes" of Flannaess, who are "hunters", being the "first humans" to arrive in the continent. Their "bronze" skin ranges from red "copper" to dark brown; the hair black or brown; and similarly, the eyes "dark brown, black, brown", or for a touch of fantastic exoticism, "amber". Etcetera. These intentionally describe Indigenous Americans. Unfortunately, Gygax evaluates these Indigenous as having "made no appreciable civilizating efforts". Meanwhile, they speak "a stagnant language" that is "difficult to translate modern concepts into". Moreover, where he defines these ethnicities as human "races", his commentary is actually racist.

Illustrations that portray the Flan display Indigenous American material culture, even war paint.

The Flan are the fantasy version of Indigenous North America.


----------



## TwiceBorn2

Yaarel said:


> Flannaess drives from the earlier Castles & Crusades map that intentionally stylizes North America. The City of Greyhawk corresponds to Chicago and the Town of Blackmoor corresponds to a remote town on Hudson Bay in Canada, where the town of Churchill is.
> 
> The Flan are inspired by the reallife Indigenous of these same locations and elsewhere in North America.
> 
> The Flannae are the "native" "tribes" of Flannaess, who are "hunters", being the "first humans" to arrive in the continent. Their "bronze" skin ranges from red "copper" to dark brown; the hair black or brown; and similarly, the eyes "dark brown, black, brown", or for a touch of fantastic exoticism, "amber". Etcetera. These intentionally describe Indigenous Americans. Unfortunately, Gygax evaluates these Indigenous as having "made no appreciable civilizating efforts". Meanwhile, they speak "a stagnant language" that is "difficult to translate modern concepts into". Moreover, where he defines these ethnicities as human "races", his commentary is actually racist.
> 
> Illustrations that portray the Flan display Indigenous American material culture, even war paint.
> 
> The Flan are the fantasy version of Indigenous North America.



Using a map North America as the basis from which to trace the map of a fantasy world does not automatically make the indigenous peoples of the fantastical continent equivalent to indigenous North Americans.

And being Canadian, I guess I never realized that North American indigenous peoples were led by *Atamans* (see entry for the Rovers of the Barrens, one of the few "pure" Flan territories left in the setting, as per p. 33 of the Guide; also see Gygax in Dragon Mag #57, pp. 13-14). How silly of me. I'll let my indigenous friends know right away so that they can correct their respective histories.

Yes, the description of the Flannae and associated art (to my knowledge, there's only one Gygax-era illustration showing humans of different ancestries, on p. 15 of the Guide) certainly could lead one to conclude that they are modelled after indigenous North Americans. I'm not sure how well that illustration matched Gygax's own vision for the Flannae, but that's a moot point. And David Howery's adventure, "Ghost Dance," in Dungeon Mag #32 (1991) only reinforced the "indigenous North American" image of the Flannae/Rovers of the Barrens. So there certainly is evidence to support your argument.

Still, the title "Ataman" suggests that Gygax had more in mind for the Flannae than merely making them analogous to "North American indigenous peoples" (which in itself is a broad overgeneralization of hundreds of different nations with different languages, customs, technology, beliefs, etc). And I can think of other peoples around the world among whom "bronze" skin, black/brown hair, and black/brown (or, less often, amber) eyes are common, who were/are accomplished warriors and hunters.

Here are a few quotes direct from Gygax, not paraphrases:

"Flannae. The Flan race have a bronze-colored complexion. This varies from a lighter, almost copper shade to a *very dark tone which is deepest brown.* Eye color is commonly dark brown, black, brown, or amber (in declining order of occurrence). Hair coloration is black, brown-black, dark brown, or brown." (Gygax, Guide to the WoG, p. 13, emphasis added).

"The original Flannae stock shows up with either Oeridian or Suloise or both as a coppery or bronze overtone [suggesting the default coloration is "brown" or "deepest brown"]. . . A hybrid of Baklunish and Flannae gives a golden-copper or golden-bronze color which is possibly the most attractive complexion of any of the admixtures of the basic races." (Gygax, Guide to the WoG, p. 14).

So the "pure white Suel" aren't the paragons of human beauty according to Gygax or his unreliable narrator? Interesting.

The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has art that again makes the Flannae vaguely resemble indigenous North Americans, but the Old Faith they purportedly follow (and the related Old Lore bardic colleges) have a more Celtic feel... and the Rovers are still led by Atamans. This once again confirms that, even in the post-Gygax era, the Flannae are more complex as a fictional race/ancestry than a cursory reading might otherwise suggest.

_I'm not denying that there are problematic racist generalizations/implications in much gaming content, old and new (including in Gygax and the World of Greyhawk). I also approve of efforts to provide a deeper understanding of the complexities of racism (and other isms), and to foster appreciation for diversity in all its forms, both within our hobby and in society-at-large. I think you and I are on the same page with regards to this.

But I still think you're going too far in presenting your interpretations as fact, and in ascribing nefarious motives where none may have been intended. Racism in all its forms is unacceptable, but people unfortunately don't always realize when they're making racist statements or behaving in a manner that reinforces racism/racist stereotypes. And then, there's the issue of the unreliable narrator, which I wouldn't just hand wave away and claim with certitude that it's merely a reflection of the author's point of view._

I'll say no more on the subject.


EDIT:

Sorry, I lied. Just wanted to add this...

Riddle me this. Where did the first Europeans migrate from? What did they look like? How did they survive?

And where do archaeologists think the ancestors of indigenous North Americans came from?

I suspect that Gygax knew the answers to those questions when he developed the World of Greyhawk.

The Flanaess is a fantastical world inspired by medieval Europe, peopled with pseudo-Vikings, pseudo-Huns, etc. Stating that the Flannae are equivalent to indigenous North Americans because Blackmoor Town  holds the same position on a map as Churchill, Manitoba (thanks for the geography lesson), and Greyhawk the same place as Chicago, doesn't confirm or deny anything, aside from your own interpretation of what it means to be "indigenous" in the Flanaess.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

aia_2 said:


> Well, the poll doesn't include the very first setting of rpg history, Blackmoor. I would have voted for it...
> But given what someone has done in the past with the revamping of Blackmoor for 3.5, i prefer not to see any further re-edition of the gems of the past (for the announcment of a new edition of Planescape for instance i have bad feelings on the final outcome...).
> I second the idea to leave the "good ideas working in the past" as they are and find smtg new for the audience of these days.



I thought Arneson was involved in the Goodman Games 3.5 version of it. It was the most commercially supported version of the setting to date, I believe.

I think the big strike against Blackmoor is that it's had multiple bites of the apple, under TSR and elsewhere, and it's never particularly caught fire. I think Blackmoor is less likely than anything in this survey. There simply isn't much of a demonstrated audience for it and if WotC wanted to show off the magic vs. technology stuff in Blackmoor, they have multiple other ways to do so.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Yaarel said:


> Yes. Blackmoor is a region in the farthest north of the subcontinent Flannaess.



And it exists in Mystara. TSR didn't know what to do with it.


----------



## Remathilis

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> And it exists in Mystara. TSR didn't know what to do with it.



I like the idea that it's the same Blackmoor due to weird planar convergence between both worlds.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Parmandur said:


> Don't underestimate the nostalgia play with. 50 year old property held by an IP obsessed toy manufacturer



Right. I think there's a 49% chance we'll see a one-off Greyhawk setting book in 2024 for just that reason, most likely centered around the City of Greyhawk.

But I see a 51% chance of them saying "you know, we could just give the larger existing audience what many of them are clamoring for, and do a big Forgotten Realms setting book." (That said, it won't be the 3E Forgotten Realms book, but something more modest and focused in nature, probably reprinting and replacing the Sword Coast book with more information about Waterdeep.)


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Remathilis said:


> I like the idea that it's the same Blackmoor due to weird planar convergence between both worlds.



Oh dear. Does this mean Blackmoor was a location in the First World?


----------



## Remathilis

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Oh dear. Does this mean Blackmoor was a location in the First World?



Maybe. That would be an interesting avenue to explore...


----------



## Parmandur

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Right. I think there's a 49% chance we'll see a one-off Greyhawk setting book in 2024 for just that reason, most likely centered around the City of Greyhawk.
> 
> But I see a 51% chance of them saying "you know, we could just give the larger existing audience what many of them are clamoring for, and do a big Forgotten Realms setting book." (That said, it won't be the 3E Forgotten Realms book, but something more modest and focused in nature, probably reprinting and replacing the Sword Coast book with more information about Waterdeep.)



Ray Winninger might feel a need to make up for the Castle Greyhawk module he wrote for.


----------



## Parmandur

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Oh dear. Does this mean Blackmoor was a location in the First World?



Part of the point of the First World model seems to be allowing a reason a hkmebrew world can have a version of Waterdeep next door to Saltmarsh. So, yes.


----------



## glass

overgeeked said:


> reflavoring of spells



...is never going to be an acceptable response to people who want interesting martials. Obviously.



Micah Sweet said:


> I don't think WotC should publish any of the old settings. They can't be trusted with them.



I would not go quite that far, but I fear we will get a _Dark Sun_ that gets the same in-name-only treatment as _Spelljammer_. And if they did do _Mystara_, they would almost certainly try to shoe-horn it into the Great Wheel, which while not as bad would still be disappointing - and actually thinking about it, the same applies to _Nentir Vale_. So I would rather they stay well clear of any of those.

As to what I do want, _Ghostwalk_ or _Birthright_ would be cool, as would _Greyhawk_, and they probably would not screw any of them up too badly. But my actual vote goes to _Chanak_. I may be the only one....


----------



## Haplo781

glass said:


> ...is never going to be an acceptable response to people who want interesting martials. Obviously.
> 
> 
> I would not go quite that far, but I fear we will get a _Dark Sun_ that gets the same in-name-only treatment as _Spelljammer_. And if they did do _Mystara_, they would almost certainly try to shoe-horn it into the Great Wheel, which while not as bad would still be disappointing - and actually thinking about it, the same applies to _Nentir Vale_. So I would rather they stay well clear of any of those.
> 
> As to what I do want, _Ghostwalk_ or _Birthright_ would be cool, as would _Greyhawk_, and they probably would not screw any of them up too badly. But my actual vote goes to _Chanak_. I may be the only one....



The hell's a Chanak


----------



## JEB

Haplo781 said:


> The hell's a Chanak



Had to look that up myself - apparently it's a sample setting from the 2E supplement _Creative Campaigning_. Best description is here: 


			AlternityRPG.Net Forum -> Chanak
		


Super obscure, but actually sounds kind of interesting...


----------



## Micah Sweet

glass said:


> ...is never going to be an acceptable response to people who want interesting martials. Obviously.
> 
> 
> I would not go quite that far, but I fear we will get a _Dark Sun_ that gets the same in-name-only treatment as _Spelljammer_. And if they did do _Mystara_, they would almost certainly try to shoe-horn it into the Great Wheel, which while not as bad would still be disappointing - and actually thinking about it, the same applies to _Nentir Vale_. So I would rather they stay well clear of any of those.
> 
> As to what I do want, _Ghostwalk_ or _Birthright_ would be cool, as would _Greyhawk_, and they probably would not screw any of them up too badly. But my actual vote goes to _Chanak_. I may be the only one....



What makes Chanak unique mechanically?  Lore isn't enough reason to update a setting.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

glass said:


> I would not go quite that far, but I fear we will get a _Dark Sun_ that gets the same in-name-only treatment as _Spelljammer_. And if they did do _Mystara_, they would almost certainly try to shoe-horn it into the Great Wheel, which while not as bad would still be disappointing - and actually thinking about it, the same applies to _Nentir Vale_.



They, and Eberron, would actually be a great thing to include in Planescape as examples of alternative multiverses (with the obligatory difficult method to get there), although in both cases, neither prime world would need to be mentioned.

My same reasoning about why Greyhawk would only be a nostalgia play also applies to Mystara, unfortunately. The core nations of the Known World don't do anything that the Sword Coast does not. (I was a prolific poster on the MML in the 1990s and am one of the few people who has run a campaign in _The Five Shires_, before anyone comes for me.) I just can't see WotC bothering with it.


glass said:


> As to what I do want, _Ghostwalk_ or _Birthright_ would be cool, as would _Greyhawk_, and they probably would not screw any of them up too badly. But my actual vote goes to _Chanak_. I may be the only one....



Ghostwalk, actually, I _do_ think we have a possibility of seeing again, maybe in an undead-centric book, because it does something that D&D, weirdly, rarely does: talk about the afterlife and make it gamable. Yeah, Planescape _sort of_ does that, but the action of that setting is not standing around with the dead in Elysium or Gehenna.

Ghostwalk not only talks about the experience of death and dying but actually gives a way for that not to be the end of a character or campaign. Its afterlife is too small, weirdly, but it at least has one. (It's also got a really interesting set of sample nations scattered around the city of Manifest as well.)

You have stumped me with Chanak, and I thought I knew all the obscure D&D settings.


----------



## Haplo781

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> My same reasoning about why Greyhawk would only be a nostalgia play also applies to Mystara, unfortunately. The core nations of the Known World don't do anything that the Sword Coast does not. (I was a prolific poster on the MML in the 1990s and am one of the few people who has run a campaign in _The Five Shires_, before anyone comes for me.) I just can't see WotC bothering with it.



Again - Red Steel. Legacies are different enough to merit a book, let alone epic level play via immortals.


----------



## Yaarel

As your post acknowledges ...



TwiceBorn2 said:


> Yes, the description of the Flannae and associated art (to my knowledge, there's only one Gygax-era illustration showing humans of different ancestries, on p. 15 of the Guide) certainly could lead one to conclude that they are modelled after indigenous North Americans.






TwiceBorn2 said:


> David Howery's adventure, "Ghost Dance," in Dungeon Mag #32 (1991) only reinforced the "indigenous North American" image of the Flannae.






TwiceBorn2 said:


> So there certainly is evidence to support your argument.






TwiceBorn2 said:


> The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has art that again makes the Flannae vaguely resemble indigenous North Americans




The Flan are fantasy versions of Indigenous Americans, in the same way that the "Barbarians" are fantasy versions of Viking Era Nordic Peoples.

As a formula, a "fantasy" version normally combines something familiar with an element that is unfamiliar.





TwiceBorn2 said:


> The Flanaess is a fantastical world inspired by medieval Europe, peopled with pseudo-Vikings, pseudo-Huns, etc.



To use elements from reallife cultures in a disrespectful way is problematic in itself. Sometimes racist.

The disrespect can be in form of culturally appropriating, misrepresenting, demonizing, disparaging, humiliating, or dehumanizing via a stereotype.

The fact that the reallife familiar cultural characteristics are recognizable, makes it irrelevant if an unfamiliar element is combined with it.


----------



## aia_2

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Oh dear. Does this mean Blackmoor was a location in the First World?




I am not sure what is the First world... This is the first time i read this term with the capital letter.
I am sure that Blackmoor pre-existed any other setting as it was the very first setting ever made up (and eventually it has been published by Judges Guild as "First Fantasy Campaign"... Omen nomen!): Blackmoor was the venue run by Arneson before D&D was published in 1973/74. Arneson showed his ideas to Gygax by using Blackmoor setting...
Therefore i am not sure if you used the term first world in that sense but namely it is!


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

aia_2 said:


> I am not sure what is the First world... This is the first time i read this term with the capital letter.



A recent addition to D&D canon, starting with Fizban's last year. It's the more-mythical-than-mythical literal first world where orcs, elves, dragons, etc., first occurred and which, after its destruction (?), echoes throughout the multiverse, where archetypes like elves and dwarves and such reoccur, along with some unusually potent individuals like named dragons and, presumably, archliches and the like.


----------



## Parmandur

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> A recent addition to D&D canon, starting with Fizban's last year. It's the more-mythical-than-mythical literal first world where orcs, elves, dragons, etc., first occurred and which, after its destruction (?), echoes throughout the multiverse, where archetypes like elves and dwarves and such reoccur, along with some unusually potent individuals like named dragons and, presumably, archliches and the like.



Propagating to play a big part in Bigby's Giants, and most likely in the Book of Many Things. Maybe the Deck of Many Things is a magical series of echoes from the superneal First World...


----------



## aia_2

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> A recent addition to D&D canon, starting with Fizban's last year. It's the more-mythical-than-mythical literal first world where orcs, elves, dragons, etc., first occurred and which, after its destruction (?), echoes throughout the multiverse, where archetypes like elves and dwarves and such reoccur, along with some unusually potent individuals like named dragons and, presumably, archliches and the like.



Ahhh... So it is a 5E thing! Ok, since i don't know anything about 5E setting, i do understand it only now... Apologies if i missed this detail!


----------



## Blue Orange

I always thought the whole Suel 'purity' thing was a little bit of a dig at the Nazis, since the biggest enthusiasts of it are the evil eugenicist monks of the Scarlet Brotherhood. And they _did_ create the Invoked Devastation from what I remember (likely a 'nuclear war' allusion). In the late 1970s WW2 would have been as recent as the end of the Cold War is now, and Nazis were and are popular enemies up and down pop culture. (They even show up in _Cthulhu Dark Ages_, which I thought was a little silly.)


----------



## Parmandur

Blue Orange said:


> I always thought the whole Suel 'purity' thing was a little bit of a dig at the Nazis, since the biggest enthusiasts of it are the evil eugenicist monks of the Scarlet Brotherhood. And they _did_ create the Invoked Devastation from what I remember (likely a 'nuclear war' allusion). In the late 1970s WW2 would have been as recent as the end of the Cold War is now, and Nazis were and are popular enemies up and down pop culture. (They even show up in _Cthulhu Dark Ages_, which I thought was a little silly.)



Sure, absolutely: notw that Suel beliefs about their superiority have no basis in game stats. Doesn't mean that is an appropriate theme in this day and age, even if in-universe they are objectively wrong.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Parmandur said:


> Sure, absolutely: notw that Suel beliefs about their superiority have no basis in game stats. Doesn't mean that is an appropriate theme in this day and age, even if in-universe they are objectively wrong.



This is making me want a list of themes that are inappropriate in this day and age, just so I know what I should be finding offensive in fiction.  Apparently anyone believing in racial purity, no matter how wrong they are and how evil they are depicted, is on the list.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Micah Sweet said:


> This is making me want a list of themes that are inappropriate in this day and age, just so I know what I should be finding offensive in fiction.  Apparently anyone believing in racial purity, no matter how wrong they are and how evil they are depicted, is on the list.



Yeah, it's a bit weird. Like, the Scarlet Brotherhood has always been depicted as evil and wrong in any of the published material. By that standard any game with Nazis as villains doesn't fly today. And yet, lots of those. Somebody tell Modiphius that Achtung Cthulhu has now been canceled. 

By me.

Just now.

In this thread.


----------



## Remathilis

Parmandur said:


> Sure, absolutely: notw that Suel beliefs about their superiority have no basis in game stats. Doesn't mean that is an appropriate theme in this day and age, even if in-universe they are objectively wrong.



Are we really going to say having cartoonish fake Nazi's to punch is problematic? The Scarlet Brotherhood is basically Hydra; a villainous group you can punch with impunity. They have a twisted ideology that is easily refuted and makes them easy to oppose. Take that away and they become Cobra; a villainous group that has no purpose or plan other than Be Evil. 

I get that there are some sensitive things about racial purity as an ideology in the real world, but I think by saying that we can't broach the subject even as a clearly evil intention for villains reduces Evil in D&D down to cartoon levels of depth.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Remathilis said:


> Are we really going to say having cartoonish fake Nazi's to punch is problematic? The Scarlet Brotherhood is basically Hydra; a villainous group you can punch with impunity. They have a twisted ideology that is easily refuted and makes them easy to oppose. Take that away and they become Cobra; a villainous group that has no purpose or plan other than Be Evil.
> 
> I get that there are some sensitive things about racial purity as an ideology in the real world, but I think by saying that we can't broach the subject even as a clearly evil intention for villains reduces Evil in D&D down to cartoon levels of depth.



Cartoon Cobra really.  Comics Cobra were basically wealth-driven terrorists.


----------



## Yaarel

Also. The problematic Suel narrative causes guilt by association, as if Nordic Vikings and Indiginous Central and South Americans were also WW2 N*zis. From a Norwegian perspective when dealing with a surprise invasion by N*zi Germany, N*zis cultural appropriating Nordic heritage, and treason by Quisling, the association is extremely offensive. For reasons relating to both demonization and cultural appropriation, the Suel narrative is offensive to Indigenous Americans.


----------



## Parmandur

Micah Sweet said:


> This is making me want a list of themes that are inappropriate in this day and age, just so I know what I should be finding offensive in fiction.  Apparently anyone believing in racial purity, no matter how wrong they are and how evil they are depicted, is on the list.



That's why WotC needs sensitivity readers.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Parmandur said:


> That's why WotC needs sensitivity readers.



Do they have the list?


----------



## Parmandur

Micah Sweet said:


> Do they have the list?



That would be their job, yes, to know what to look for and what to avoid.


----------



## Remathilis

Parmandur said:


> That would be their job, yes, to know what to look for and what to avoid.



I assume they don't share it out as a trade secret for job protection then?


----------



## Parmandur

Remathilis said:


> I assume they don't share it out as a trade secret for job protection then?



Dude.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Remathilis said:


> I assume they don't share it out as a trade secret for job protection then?



It would certainly be helpful to know what kind of stories I'm not socially allowed to enjoy.


----------



## CleverNickName

Remathilis said:


> I assume they don't share it out as a trade secret for job protection then?





Micah Sweet said:


> It would certainly be helpful to know what kind of stories I'm not socially allowed to enjoy.


----------



## Haplo781

Micah Sweet said:


> It would certainly be helpful to know what kind of stories I'm not socially allowed to enjoy.



Probably the ones involving themes we as a society have collectively decided are unacceptable.

Like keeping slaves or committing genocide.

I know some people may find this controversial, but there are other games out there for folks like that. Maybe something in a nice FATAL, or the nuTSR ouvre.


----------



## Yaarel

Haplo781 said:


> ... or the nuTSR ouvre.



LOL! Deftly placed and richly deserved.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Haplo781 said:


> Probably the ones involving themes we as a society have collectively decided are unacceptable.
> 
> Like keeping slaves or committing genocide.
> 
> I know some people may find this controversial, but there are other games out there for folks like that. Maybe something in a nice FATAL, or the nuTSR ouvre.



I can think of literally dozens, maybe hundreds, of stories that include slavery and/or characters that believe in "racial purity", all of them cast in an appropriately negative light, that would be disallowed under that philosophy.  If you're just talking about RPGs, I give you Dark Sun.  Is that what you're talking about?


----------



## glass

Micah Sweet said:


> It would certainly be helpful to know what kind of stories I'm not socially allowed to enjoy.



It is not a question of "allowed". Marginalised groups generally lack the power to allow or disallow anything, almost by definition. The questions is always "what do you want to do"; my answer is always "avoid harming said groups", but no external force is going to make your answer the same. Only your own conscience.

That said....



Micah Sweet said:


> I can think of literally dozens, maybe hundreds, of stories that include slavery and/or characters that believe in "racial purity", all of them cast in an appropriately negative light, that would be disallowed under that philosophy.



What philosophy? Just because some publishers (mostly just Paizo AFAIK) have decided that they are done producing new products that deal with slavery (even amongst the bad guys), does not mean that everyone else is compelled to follow suit, and it certainly does not mean you are compelled to do so at your own table provided everyone's on board. Even Paizo will be quite happy to sell you the many slaver-themed adventures they have already published (AFAIK, they have not even retired them from PFS).


----------



## eyeheartawk

That leaves us with a question then, if they're going to defang the Scarlet Brotherhood, what sort of approved villainy will they replace it with?

Pineapple on pizza?

Ketchup on hot dogs?

This is what keeps me up at night, folks.


----------



## Mind of tempest

eyeheartawk said:


> That leaves us with a question then, if they're going to defang the Scarlet Brotherhood, what sort of approved villainy will they replace it with?
> 
> Pineapple on pizza?
> 
> Ketchup on hot dogs?
> 
> This is what keeps me up at night, folks.



it is the evil paradox we can't show them doing evil but we also need evil so we have things to fight, it kinda makes creating stakes and conflicts hard.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Mind of tempest said:


> it is the evil paradox we can't show them doing evil but we also need evil so we have things to fight, it kinda makes creating stakes and conflicts hard.



I mean, you can't convince me an adult man putting ketchup on a hot dog in public _isn't _evil.


----------



## Remathilis

eyeheartawk said:


> I mean, you can't convince me an adult man putting ketchup on a hot dog in public _isn't _evil.



If ketchup on hot dogs is wrong, I don't want to be right.

This is my supervillain origin story, I guess.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Remathilis said:


> If ketchup on hot dogs is wrong, I don't want to be right.



That sounds like something a Scarlet Brotherhood monk would say.


----------



## Mind of tempest

eyeheartawk said:


> I mean, you can't convince me an adult man putting ketchup on a hot dog in public _isn't _evil.



a, it is not evil, b even if it was evil it is not the kind of evil where killing you and looting your stuff becomes reasonable.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Mind of tempest said:


> a, it is not evil, b even if it was evil it is not the kind of evil where killing you and looting your stuff becomes reasonable.


----------



## Remathilis

Mind of tempest said:


> it is the evil paradox we can't show them doing evil but we also need evil so we have things to fight, it kinda makes creating stakes and conflicts hard.



That's really my problem with this: it's fine to present topics like slavery or genocide or fascism or religious fanaticism in a way that does not glorify or justify it, but I feel we're reaching a point where even the mention of the topic will be deemed offensive, even when in a negative light. This isn't a trigger warning, this is sanitized for your protection.

Fiction (of which gaming is part) allows for exploration of topics removed from their historical context for exactly that reason. The Daleks in Doctor Who were developed to be Space Nazis bent on genocide of everything not a dalek and have killed other Daleks due to impurity. They are irredeemable, always Chaotic Evil and even the few "good ones" would hardly be called saints. They must be opposed, even to the point that the normally pacifist Doctor contemplated his own genocide of them twice at different points of his life. They are fascinating for a species and cannot be identified with on any level. 

They also break every rule in modern fiction: a human-like race that was mutated by a megalomaniac mad scientist "creator god" , is Always Chaotic Evil unless something messes with their programming, and is hell-bent on genocide and obsessed with racial purity and supremacy is no longer acceptable, if I'm reading the room right. Not even to show how aberrant such ideologies are, the concepts alone are unacceptable to discuss. The Evil of the Daleks reduced to a simple cartoon version of Evil for Evil's sake, without motivation or explanation. 

Anyway, I guess this has moved far from the topic so I'll let this drop.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Remathilis said:


> That's really my problem with this: it's fine to present topics like slavery or genocide or fascism or religious fanaticism in a way that does not glorify or justify it, but I feel we're reaching a point where even the mention of the topic will be deemed offensive, even when in a negative light.



I think we're at the point where people are saying this is the case, without actual incidents of it occurring.

No one gives a crap if you want to fight Nazis. No one is mad if you are killing slavers. No one clutches their pearls if you take on fanaticism or fascism.

Please see the popular and critical acclaim for The Man in the High Castle, Django Unchained, The Boys and The Handmaiden's Tale for details.

No one would be upset if Dark Sun came back and some of the enemies PCs were intended to fight and probably kill were slavers. There is no "but think of the slavers!" lobby out there arguing that the slavers' point of view isn't being taken into account. At least, no one anyone else takes seriously.

This whole tangent is an exceptionally weird argument for people to be making and, if I didn't know better, I would say it's a disingenuous one.


----------



## Haplo781

Just a few hours left to get your votes in!


----------



## Blue Orange

(deleted to keep this thread from turning into 'name your least favorite RPG')


----------



## Parmandur

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I think we're at the point where people are saying this is the case, without actual incidents of it occurring.
> 
> No one gives a crap if you want to fight Nazis. No one is mad if you are killing slavers. No one clutches their pearls if you take on fanaticism or fascism.
> 
> Please see the popular and critical acclaim for The Man in the High Castle, Django Unchained, The Boys and The Handmaiden's Tale for details.
> 
> No one would be upset if Dark Sun came back and some of the enemies PCs were intended to fight and probably kill were slavers. There is no "but think of the slavers!" lobby out there arguing that the slavers' point of view isn't being taken into account. At least, no one anyone else takes seriously.
> 
> This whole tangent is an exceptionally weird argument for people to be making and, if I didn't know better, I would say it's a disingenuous one.



The problematic part isn't the Scarlet Brotherhood are around, or that the Suel Empire was terrible, it's the fake 19th century style ethnography which is beyond being "unfashionable" is mimicking discredited and unscientific views about how human populations and demographics work. The Forgotten Realms has an advantage here in yhat Ed Greenwood didn't really do thst sort of deep dive into ethnography, so it didn't age poorly there.


----------



## Bupp

I think I'm at the point that I _want_ pineapple on my hot dog and ketchup on my pizza.


----------



## Blue Orange

Parmandur said:


> The problematic part isn't the Scarlet Brotherhood are around, or that the Suel Empire was terrible, it's the fake 19th century style ethnography which is beyond being "unfashionable" is mimicking discredited and unscientific views about how human populations and demographics work. The Forgotten Realms has an advantage here in yhat Ed Greenwood didn't really do thst sort of deep dive into ethnography, so it didn't age poorly there.



So it reminds people of nasty 1920s-style racist ethnographies so people see it as problematic? You know, I could see that--Gygax was definitely going for a pseudoacademic 'false document' style, and if the texts he's imitating are now considered bad, well, it would give people the willies.


----------



## Yaarel

Parmandur said:


> The problematic part isn't the Scarlet Brotherhood are around, or that the Suel Empire was terrible, it's the fake 19th century style ethnography which is beyond being "unfashionable" is mimicking discredited and unscientific views about how human populations and demographics work. The Forgotten Realms has an advantage here in yhat Ed Greenwood didn't really do thst sort of deep dive into ethnography, so it didn't age poorly there.




Racism including N*zism are demonic, sotospeak.

It matters if recognizable reallife ethnicities are being demonized ingame.


----------



## Remathilis

Blue Orange said:


> So it reminds people of nasty 1920s-style racist ethnographies so people see it as problematic? You know, I could see that--Gygax was definitely going for a pseudoacademic 'false document' style, and if the texts he's imitating are now considered bad, well, it would give people the willies.



So to loop this around to the main point again, is this something so ingrained in Oerth that it cannot be ignored or changed without irreparable harm to the setting? Do we get rid of the Scarlet Brotherhood, do we just never mention the ethnic origins of the Suel again, or is it so tainted by the past that Greyhawk itself is unsalvageable?


----------



## Blue Orange

Remathilis said:


> So to loop this around to the main point again, is this something so ingrained in Oerth that it cannot be ignored or changed without irreparable harm to the setting? Do we get rid of the Scarlet Brotherhood, do we just never mention the ethnic origins of the Suel again, or is it so tainted by the past that Greyhawk itself is unsalvageable?



Agreed. Yeah, I think you could turn them into demon worshippers or something.

I think the bigger problem is that it's not distinct enough from standard fantasy and it has a relatively small, older fanbase--but one that might pony up for an expensive 'special edition' with full color, etc. You could probably even find some of the original artists--Erol Otus is working again.


----------



## Remathilis

Blue Orange said:


> Agreed. Yeah, I think you could turn them into demon worshippers or something.
> 
> I think the bigger problem is that it's not distinct enough from standard fantasy and it has a relatively small, older fanbase--but one that might pony up for an expensive 'special edition' with full color, etc. You could probably even find some of the original artists--Erol Otus is working again.



I think the idea is fine enough that you could leave them as a splinter group of extremists who believe Suel supremacy without a deep dive into their ethnic origin. You don't need to change their whole origin to update them as a terrorist organization. And Iuz has the whole demon worshipping angle already.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Blue Orange said:


> Agreed. Yeah, I think you could turn them into demon worshippers or something.
> 
> I think the bigger problem is that it's not distinct enough from standard fantasy and it has a relatively small, older fanbase--but one that might pony up for an expensive 'special edition' with full color, etc. You could probably even find some of the original artists--Erol Otus is working again.



Yeah, we definitely need another group of cultists.


----------



## Alzrius

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I think we're at the point where people are saying this is the case, without actual incidents of it occurring.



I disagree; actual incidents aren't hard to find if you read gaming-related media, both in terms of game-focused websites and developer blogs.









						Dark Sun: Celebrating 30 Years of Dungeons & Dragons' Enduring Post-Apocalyptic Campaign Setting With its Creators
					

When I was around 12 years old, I sat down with some of my family members to play Dungeons & [...]




					comicbook.com
				












						Dark Sun spiritual successor Red Dawn presents a new wasteland setting for D&D 5E with old problems
					

Upcoming D&D 5E supplement fails to address bioessentialist and racist implications of popular '90s release.




					www.dicebreaker.com
				












						From a Freelancer: An Open Letter to Erik Mona
					

Editorial Note from Owen: As someone established in the industry, one of the things I have done before and expect I will do again is to post messages written by other people who, for whatever reaso…




					owenkcstephens.com


----------



## Digdude@1970

I'm really glad to see from the poll results that 11 other people besides me, thought Birthright was a doable setting.


----------



## Remathilis

Micah Sweet said:


> Yeah, we definitely need another group of cultists.



At the risk of conjuring a scarecrow, I truly wonder how long cultists will be an acceptable villain origin, considering that most groups labeled cults aren't chock full of zealots but of normal people deluded by charismatic con men with delusions of grandeur. Moreover, most of D&D's cultists are based on stereotypes and propaganda against pagan and "Satanic" groups mixed with good old fashioned witch hunts. Of brainwashed minions deluded by Satan into acts of debauchery and violence. Ya know, the same things mainstream media labeled US as for the first part of the game's lifetime! 

Again, there is a world of difference between followers of Orcus and any real world religious group, but the idea of a group of righteous heroes going into a cult's hideout and slaying followers of a demon lord hell bent on spreading evil ain't that far removed from some people's reactions to Internet conspiracy theories or what Jack Chick thought about us.


----------



## Micah Sweet

Remathilis said:


> At the risk of conjuring a scarecrow, I truly wonder how long cultists will be an acceptable villain origin, considering that most groups labeled cults aren't chock full of zealots but of normal people deluded by charismatic con men with delusions of grandeur. Moreover, most of D&D's cultists are based on stereotypes and propaganda against pagan and "Satanic" groups mixed with good old fashioned witch hunts. Of brainwashed minions deluded by Satan into acts of debauchery and violence. Ya know, the same things mainstream media labeled US as for the first part of the game's lifetime!
> 
> Again, there is a world of difference between followers of Orcus and any real world religious group, but the idea of a group of righteous heroes going into a cult's hideout and slaying followers of a demon lord hell bent on spreading evil ain't that far removed from some people's reactions to Internet conspiracy theories or what Jack Chick thought about us.



And what we're allowed to use as antagonists gets whittled down a little more...

I don't want every enemy to be demons, undead, and mindless automatons.  And using anything else requires such increasingly high levels of nuance that it becomes a severe, possibly too severe, burden on official and homebrew adventure creators.


----------



## Bagpuss

Frozen_Heart said:


> Ideally I'd love to see Dark Sun (along with a psion class). However I'm not sure that 5e could handle the topics involved in the setting so maybe it's best to avoid it.




Amazing the number of people on this poll that want a setting known for slavery and racism, its as if people want some societal ills to fight against in a fantasy setting.


----------



## Bagpuss

Micah Sweet said:


> And what we're allowed to use as antagonists gets whittled down a little more...



That's why I wouldn't mind seeing Birthright as a setting.

The human kingdoms in that would trade with the goblin kingdoms, the elves would go on wild hunts massacring humans encroaching on their forests. The various human races (of which there were five) would not only war with each other but among themselves. No side was completely good, and few were completely evil.

The fact that any side was redeemable, or sentient, didn't really matter when they were an enemy to be overcome, through steel, magic or politics.


----------



## Digdude@1970

There is the problem of the Vos who are written as a evil Rus type of people dedicated to murder and conquest. They might need to be adjusted.


----------



## Bagpuss

Digdude@1970 said:


> There is the problem of the Vos who are written as a evil Rus type of people dedicated to murder and conquest. They might need to be adjusted.



With what's going on in Ukraine a bit of nostalgia for evil Russians might be in order.

But yes the human races had real world parallels, and they weren't all viewed in a great light. Also the racial attribute bonuses we can't be having any of that any more...


----------



## eyeheartawk

Bagpuss said:


> With what's going on in Ukraine a bit of nostalgia for evil Russians might be in order.



It's weird how the new version of Birthright has this different kind of Javelin in it. 

Huh.


----------



## Digdude@1970

Bagpuss said:


> With what's going on in Ukraine a bit of nostalgia for evil Russians might be in order.



Currently started a game with two empires roughly based off of these current events.


----------



## Bagpuss

eyeheartawk said:


> It's weird how the new version of Birthright has this different kind of Javelin in it.




I did like the Battle Magic in Birthright, where you could have a Rain of Magic Missiles or a conflagration of multiple Fireballs. A Javelin would fit right in as battle magic.


----------



## Remathilis

Digdude@1970 said:


> There is the problem of the Vos who are written as a evil Rus type of people dedicated to murder and conquest. They might need to be adjusted.



Give them the orc image rehab treatment.


----------



## Parmandur

Blue Orange said:


> So it reminds people of nasty 1920s-style racist ethnographies so people see it as problematic? You know, I could see that--Gygax was definitely going for a pseudoacademic 'false document' style, and if the texts he's imitating are now considered bad, well, it would give people the willies.



Yeah, and I don't think it was an explicit racist move back in the day, Gygax was trying to create an immersive scientific-y history for his world...but that was based in some pretty questionable real world anthropology that has been severely overthrown as fields such as genetics have developed since the 80's.


Remathilis said:


> So to loop this around to the main point again, is this something so ingrained in Oerth that it cannot be ignored or changed without irreparable harm to the setting? Do we get rid of the Scarlet Brotherhood, do we just never mention the ethnic origins of the Suel again, or is it so tainted by the past that Greyhawk itself is unsalvageable?



Neither the Scarlet Brotherhood or the existence of the Suel or any other group is a problem, and I donthink there are any issues which can't be massaged away gently. But sections such as "Characteristics of the Races of the Flannaes" on page 12 of the main book in the original box set, which goes into uncomfortable detail about the Human ethnography in super outdated ways, shouldn't stay the same.


----------



## Henadic Theologian

Forgotten Realms


----------



## eyeheartawk

Henadic Theologian said:


> Forgotten Realms



What, was SCAG insufficient or something?


----------



## Parmandur

To be fair, the Sword Coast region as described in SCAG is larger than Europe. And the rest is on the DMsGuild.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Parmandur said:


> To be fair, the Sword Coast region as described in SCAG is larger than Europe. And the rest is on the DMsGuild.



Both true.

I wasn't specifically talking about the relative lack of content in SCAG itself (though it is lacking even in the areas it _does _cover) but rather the lack of coverage for anything outside the Sword Coast. 

Also, I really think the argument that any deficiency in a full price official product can simply be rectified by _buying more_ material from third parties is deeply flawed.


----------



## Haplo781

Re: Birthright, it's a cool setting with a valid niche to fill. I don't know if it has sufficient brand recognition to convince WotC not to just use Eldraine to fill the same niche.


----------



## Parmandur

eyeheartawk said:


> Both true.
> 
> I wasn't specifically talking about the relative lack of content in SCAG itself (though it is lacking even in the areas it _does _cover) but rather the lack of coverage for anything outside the Sword Coast.
> 
> Also, I really think the argument that any deficiency in a full price official product can simply be rectified by _buying more_ material from third parties is deeply flawed.



But it isn't necessarily a deficiency in question when the brief of the product as advertised is followed, it's more like saying "I want a different product." Well, different products, some even by Ed Greenwood himself, are readily available.


----------



## Patrick Lewis1

CleverNickName said:


> Definitely Mystara.  If I had a second-place vote, it would be for Greyhawk.
> 
> EDIT:  You know what?  Here's my ranking of all options, in order of preference.  Because I can.
> 
> Mystara (including Red Steel and Hollow World) >> Greyhawk > Other (Pelinor) > Birthright > Other (Lankhmar) > Ghostwalk, Dark Sun, Council of Worms, Nentir Vale, and all the rest that I've never played.



I agree with you on Mystara. I'm hoping to run a 5E version of Wrath of the Immortals one day. Honestly I prefer the morale framework of the setting to all others( No overt Good/Bad, just the politics of the Known world and the effeects of the Lawful, neutal and chaotic alignments).

Orcs of Thar is still the best RPG product of its era


----------



## Patrick Lewis1

AnotherGuy said:


> I echo some of the other posters.
> I love Mystara but I do not want WotC going anywhere near the setting please considering what they have done with some of the others they have touched. The fans of the setting do a great enough job with it as is. Also Mystara would be a landmine when it came to sensitivity content.



Honestly I think that Mystara may be the answer to the modern morale conundrum of RPGS.

 It uses a idea core to Warhammer 40K success, that there are no good guys. That there are just the polilitics and philisophies of  a weird bunch of historical analogies. Good races and Evil races was always a dumb RPG trope and are very much core to post  Tolkien fantasy. The evil race/nation thing always bothered me about Forgotten Realms. 

The two global super powers of the Mystaran setting Thyatis and Alphatia are both pretty awful exploitative empires. And even the Immortals manipulating the conflict at the heart of the Wrath of the immortals are not Good/Evil. I think that fantasy emergent from the setting can be explored in a sensative and fun way. Not by arguing for cultutural relativism but by asking players what theyre happy about exploring. 

The Isle of Dread( A core mystaran experience) which has a free 5e version knocking around from the 5E D&D Next playtest, could be run incredibly insensitively with racist and colonial tropes. Or it could be played without the bigotry and instead with understanding and treated as a first cultural contact( psuedo europeans meeting psuedo south sea islanders).


----------



## CleverNickName

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> Orcs of Thar is still the best RPG product of its era



I agree with your post regarding Mystara, except for this last part.  "The Orcs of Thar" was incredibly off-putting for me, and it's the only book that I won't include in my Gazetteer collection.  (This product already has an ongoing, detailed discussion in another thread.  *I'll link it here*, so as not to derail this thread.  My views and opinions of that product can be found there.)


----------



## eyeheartawk

CleverNickName said:


> I agree with your post regarding Mystara, except for this last part.  "The Orcs of Thar" was incredibly off-putting for me, and it's the only book that I won't include in my Gazetteer collection.  (This product already has an ongoing, detailed discussion in another thread.  *I'll link it here*, so as not to derail this thread.  My views and opinions of that product can be found there.)



If Greyhawk is problematic with its pastiche cultures than Mystara would be even more so. And I say this as somebody who likes Mystara.


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## Haplo781

eyeheartawk said:


> If Greyhawk is problematic with its pastiche cultures than Mystara would be even more so. And I say this as somebody who likes Mystara.



I think any return to Mystara would have to be Red Steel-based.


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## eyeheartawk

Haplo781 said:


> I think any return to Mystara would have to be Red Steel-based.


----------



## Patrick Lewis1

CleverNickName said:


> I agree with your post regarding Mystara, except for this last part.  "The Orcs of Thar" was incredibly off-putting for me, and it's the only book that I won't include in my Gazetteer collection.  (This product already has an ongoing, detailed discussion in another thread.  *I'll link it here*, so as not to derail this thread.  My views and opinions of that product can be found there.)



Fair enough matey. Each to their own and all due respects( I too have a fairly good BECMI collection).

I just liked the ability to play hobgoblins, the partial armour mechanic etc, plus I liked the whimsy.

I was actually probably a bigger fan of Top Balista. The games I run tend to go either a bit Pratchett or a bit horror by way of python.

That said I think we could use mystara itself


Haplo781 said:


> I think any return to Mystara would have to be Red Steel-based.



I too like Red Steel but that really is the colonial americas analogy, plus drug addicted xmen powers...still got the audio cd somewhere...


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## Haplo781

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> Fair enough matey. Each to their own and all due respects( I too have a fairly good BECMI collection).
> 
> I just liked the ability to play hobgoblins, the partial armour mechanic etc, plus I liked the whimsy.
> 
> I was actually probably a bigger fan of Top Balista. The games I run tend to go either a bit Pratchett or a bit horror by way of python.
> 
> That said I think we could use mystara itself
> 
> I too like Red Steel but that really is the colonial americas analogy, plus drug addicted xmen powers...still got the audio cd somewhere...



I don't expect it would be without changes.

Something in more of a Dark Souls/Elden Ring vibe might go over better.


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## Digdude@1970

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> Honestly I think that Mystara may be the answer to the modern morale conundrum of RPGS.
> 
> It uses a idea core to Warhammer 40K success, that there are no good guys. That there are just the polilitics and philisophies of  a weird bunch of historical analogies. Good races and Evil races was always a dumb RPG trope and are very much core to post  Tolkien fantasy. The evil race/nation thing always bothered me about Forgotten Realms.
> 
> The two global super powers of the Mystaran setting Thyatis and Alphatia are both pretty awful exploitative empires. And even the Immortals manipulating the conflict at the heart of the Wrath of the immortals are not Good/Evil. I think that fantasy emergent from the setting can be explored in a sensative and fun way. Not by arguing for cultutural relativism but by asking players what theyre happy about exploring.
> 
> The Isle of Dread( A core mystaran experience) which has a free 5e version knocking around from the 5E D&D Next playtest, could be run incredibly insensitively with racist and colonial tropes. Or it could be played without the bigotry and instead with understanding and treated as a first cultural contact( psuedo europeans meeting psuedo south sea islanders).



Can you point me to the free version of IOD? I'd like to see how it differs from the Goodman games book.


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## Patrick Lewis1

Haplo781 said:


> I don't expect it would be without changes.
> 
> Something in more of a Dark Souls/Elden Ring vibe might go over better.



True. I have the original materials so I guess I should home brew 5e versions of it myself. In fact this thread has inspired me to try to do so at my Local Gaming store.


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## Patrick Lewis1

Digdude@1970 said:


> Can you point me to the free version of IOD? I'd like to see how it differs from the Goodman games book.



It was in the D&D Next play test docs years ago....not sure where youd find it now. But you've reminded me I should pick up Goodman's version. Tah Matey.


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## The Glen

eyeheartawk said:


> If Greyhawk is problematic with its pastiche cultures than Mystara would be even more so. And I say this as somebody who likes Mystara.



The problem you have is that Mystara is rather popular in other nations because BECMI was the first D&D widely distributed abroad.  Because it presented non-European cultures in a fantasy setting for the first time for many people, it became a favorite overseas.  The Japanese Mystara books are the stuff of legend.  They wanted their cultures presented as AWESOME, often at the expense of realistic.  Give them what they want.


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## Haplo781

The Glen said:


> The problem you have is that Mystara is rather popular in other nations because BECMI was the first D&D widely distributed abroad.  Because it presented non-European cultures in a fantasy setting for the first time for many people, it became a favorite overseas.  The Japanese Mystara books are the stuff of legend.  They wanted their cultures presented as AWESOME, often at the expense of realistic.  Give them what they want.



Huh. This is actually a strong argument for reviving Mystara.

As far as I know, Basic is more popular in Japan than any other version of D&D and always has been. And it isn't even close.

WotC made a TV ad specifically for Japan, so it's fair to say they're looking to expand into that market.


----------



## cimbrog

Anyone brought up Thunder Rift yet? A setting for people using the free SRD documents only?


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## Haplo781

cimbrog said:


> Anyone brought up Thunder Rift yet? A setting for people using the free SRD documents only?



Thunder Rift is part of Mystara.


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## Parmandur

eyeheartawk said:


> If Greyhawk is problematic with its pastiche cultures than Mystara would be even more so. And I say this as somebody who likes Mystara.



Greyhawk just needs a little editorial tweaking, really, Mystara is hard to see flying today without major revision.


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## Patrick Lewis1

The Glen said:


> The problem you have is that Mystara is rather popular in other nations because BECMI was the first D&D widely distributed abroad.  Because it presented non-European cultures in a fantasy setting for the first time for many people, it became a favorite overseas.  The Japanese Mystara books are the stuff of legend.  They wanted their cultures presented as AWESOME, often at the expense of realistic.  Give them what they want.



I actually always thought Karameikos to be the most realistic fantasy version of a late stage Byzantine Balkans setting....in fact its the only late stage Byzantine balkans fantasy setting. I personally find the known world setting more realistic than the Forgotten realms one. 

Forgotten realms has some wonderful elements but i always saw it a some one dumping fantasy elements onto North american geographic elements, whilst the known world of mystara clearly was a sort of  a historical mutant europe. 

As a Brit kid in the 80s the Duchy of Karameikos, with its recent Thyatian invasion was in some was ways similar to post Norman invasion England, Robinhood ivanhoe type fiction. I guess growing up in a country with real castles and relatively ( To North America) small geography, the scale of Mystara made sense. I could imagine it easily. 

Its only as i got older I realised the genius of Bruce Heard as voyages of the princess ark /Known world editor with the complexity of the various analogus nations. Heard being a French Born and fluent American I think had a really good grasp of the feel of medieval and renaissance europe.


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## Patrick Lewis1

Haplo781 said:


> Thunder Rift is part of Mystara.



Is it though? I always though it seperate.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Alzrius said:


> I disagree; actual incidents aren't hard to find if you read gaming-related media, both in terms of game-focused websites and developer blogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dark Sun: Celebrating 30 Years of Dungeons & Dragons' Enduring Post-Apocalyptic Campaign Setting With its Creators
> 
> 
> When I was around 12 years old, I sat down with some of my family members to play Dungeons & [...]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> comicbook.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dark Sun spiritual successor Red Dawn presents a new wasteland setting for D&D 5E with old problems
> 
> 
> Upcoming D&D 5E supplement fails to address bioessentialist and racist implications of popular '90s release.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dicebreaker.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From a Freelancer: An Open Letter to Erik Mona
> 
> 
> Editorial Note from Owen: As someone established in the industry, one of the things I have done before and expect I will do again is to post messages written by other people who, for whatever reaso…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> owenkcstephens.com



I don't think those are proof of anything. The original creator of Dark Sun hypothetizes that WotC wouldn't touch the setting for X, Y and Z reasons, but doesn't know, and WotC wouldn't say. (Compare to all the people who say Movie X "could never be made today," ignoring how many movies of that type are still being made.)

A website got some letters from an unknown number of people and said "people are made we didn't mention that there's slavery in the setting" could mean they got three angry letters. We have no idea how widespread the response was, nor how seriously to take them. (A website getting brigaded by angry partisans is not representative of anything, as countless movie review sites being brigaded amply illustrates.)

And Paizo deciding to not do content that includes slavery means that Paizo decided not to do content that includes slavery, not anything significant about the market as a whole.

Honestly, Radiant Citadel is a great rebuttal to all of this stuff. It is openly and enthusiastically an incredibly progressive, utopian setting that includes plenty of real world ills, with multiple of its adventures addressing the consequences of colonialism. WotC isn't scared to publish this stuff, as we've seen as recently as _July._

After years of everyone trying to find Planescape and Spelljammer under every tea leaf, it's weird as hell to watch many of the same people try to conjure up a reason that Dark Sun hasn't happened yet, ignoring the very obvious reason that every time WotC has come up with psionics rules, a substantial number of Dark Sun fans are loudly furious that the rules aren't the same as they were in 2E.

WotC _clearly_ wants to do this. They would not have kept screwing around with psionics rules -- publishing them in a book as recently as November 2020 -- if they didn't.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Remathilis said:


> At the risk of conjuring a scarecrow, I truly wonder how long cultists will be an acceptable villain origin



When the self-identified Cultists of Orcus complain, then it'll be an issue.

People choosing to do evil are always going to be acceptable enemies.

The notion that everything is being taken off the table because WotC has wisely decided that "hey, you look different than me, therefore it's OK to stick you in the face with a sword" is silly at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.


----------



## Parmandur

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I don't think those are proof of anything. The original creator of Dark Sun hypothetizes that WotC wouldn't touch the setting for X, Y and Z reasons, but doesn't know, and WotC wouldn't say. (Compare to all the people who say Movie X "could never be made today," ignoring how many movies of that type are still being made.)
> 
> A website got some letters from an unknown number of people and said "people are made we didn't mention that there's slavery in the setting" could mean they got three angry letters. We have no idea how widespread the response was, nor how seriously to take them. (A website getting brigaded by angry partisans is not representative of anything, as countless movie review sites being brigaded amply illustrates.)
> 
> And Paizo deciding to not do content that includes slavery means that Paizo decided not to do content that includes slavery, not anything significant about the market as a whole.
> 
> Honestly, Radiant Citadel is a great rebuttal to all of this stuff. It is openly and enthusiastically an incredibly progressive, utopian setting that includes plenty of real world ills, with multiple of its adventures addressing the consequences of colonialism. WotC isn't scared to publish this stuff, as we've seen as recently as _July._
> 
> After years of everyone trying to find Planescape and Spelljammer under every tea leaf, it's weird as hell to watch many of the same people try to conjure up a reason that Dark Sun hasn't happened yet, ignoring the very obvious reason that every time WotC has come up with psionics rules, a substantial number of Dark Sun fans are loudly furious that the rules aren't the same as they were in 2E.
> 
> WotC _clearly_ wants to do this. They would not have kept screwing around with psionics rules -- publishing them in a book as recently as November 2020 -- if they didn't.



I think if the Mystic had made it into Xanathar's Luke WotC wanted, Dark Sun would have already happened.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Bagpuss said:


> Amazing the number of people on this poll that want a setting known for slavery and racism, its as if people want some societal ills to fight against in a fantasy setting.



And climate change! 

For a setting that people are claiming couldn't be published today, it's weird how timely Dark Sun actually is.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Haplo781 said:


> Re: Birthright, it's a cool setting with a valid niche to fill. I don't know if it has sufficient brand recognition to convince WotC not to just use Eldraine to fill the same niche.



Eldraine is definitely the one with more recognition in 2022 and it also brings in chivalry and fairy tales as flavors 5E hasn't done much with, outside of Witchlight.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> Orcs of Thar is still the best RPG product of its era



You are going to be very upset when you Google how people view it in 2022.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Haplo781 said:


> Thunder Rift is part of Mystara.



Retroactively. It was its own thing originally and it works fine as a standalone setting.

That said, WotC already has Phandelver as their (mostly) standalone starting setting and they're tripling down on it with next year's campaign book. I don't think there's a convincing pitch to make to WotC about Thunder Rift. (Again, just open it up on DMs Guild, WotC.)


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Remathilis said:


> So to loop this around to the main point again, is this something so ingrained in Oerth that it cannot be ignored or changed without irreparable harm to the setting? Do we get rid of the Scarlet Brotherhood, do we just never mention the ethnic origins of the Suel again, or is it so tainted by the past that Greyhawk itself is unsalvageable?



No, none of it is fundamental to the setting. That said, the people who are most interested in a Greyhawk revival are the least interested in even a pebble being changed. Erik Mona, who is as big of a Greyhawk superfan as you're likely to find, got a lot of crap during the pre-Paizo days for updating stuff in Dragon articles and Dungeon adventures.

Between the Greyhawk fans being fewer in number, older, and not particularly interested in anything being changed, along with the adventures there largely being the same sort that can already be played in the Forgotten Realms, it's hard to see what the argument for a 5E/1D&D Greyhawk is. As I said earlier in this thread, it'd be a 2024 nostalgia play or nothing.

It's not even likely to ever be licensed out, since WotC refused to let Paizo license it, as I recall.


----------



## The Glen

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> Is it though? I always though it seperate.



It's tied to Glantri in the adventure that came with the DM Screen.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

The Glen said:


> It's tied to Glantri in the adventure that came with the DM Screen.



_Glantri_ as a standalone setting would be spectacular. Renaissance-era magocracy in a canal city? Yes, please.


----------



## GuyBoy

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> No, none of it is fundamental to the setting. That said, the people who are most interested in a Greyhawk revival are the least interested in even a pebble being changed. Erik Mona, who is as big of a Greyhawk superfan as you're likely to find, got a lot of crap during the pre-Paizo days for updating stuff in Dragon articles and Dungeon adventures.
> 
> Between the Greyhawk fans being fewer in number, older, and not particularly interested in anything being changed, along with the adventures there largely being the same sort that can already be played in the Forgotten Realms, it's hard to see what the argument for a 5E/1D&D Greyhawk is. As I said earlier in this thread, it'd be a 2024 nostalgia play or nothing.
> 
> It's not even likely to ever be licensed out, since WotC refused to let Paizo license it, as I recall.



Maybe, but speaking personally, I am older (59 and playing since 1976), keen to see Greyhawk revived for 2024 and TOTALLY happy to see as many pebbles moved as are necessary to meet modern standards of decency and inclusivity as necessary.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

GuyBoy said:


> Maybe, but speaking personally, I am older (59 and playing since 1976), keen to see Greyhawk revived for 2024 and TOTALLY happy to see as many pebbles moved as are necessary to meet modern standards of decency and inclusivity as necessary.



If nothing else, it'd be nice to see them give it to the Adventurers League, similar to the Living Greyhawk era, and let them publish new material under that umbrella on DMs Guild. They could give them a bit more restrictive guide rails and maybe have an in-house WotC Greyhawk guru have to sign off on a setting bible before it got going.


----------



## Patrick Lewis1

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> You are going to be very upset when you Google how people view it in 2022.



I wont let it upset me.

 It's a 34 year old supplement that I first picked up when I was nine( I'm a grey as the Mr Snow picture lol). I I like it because of the fun games i had playing with it. Because at 9/10 years olf it suited my infantile sense of humour.

And its okay for folk to not like it. Its almost as if Kitsch stuff like it( And it was already kitsch when it first came out) is taken seriously now. A histoical historicism or whig History as we used to call it is nothing new. People have always been morally critical of the past, they have been for millenia.

I'm a happily married man in my 40s with kids and good job who occasionally plays lets pretend with dice. Someone not liking an element of my childhood memory is no reason to be cross or upset.

I think there are real questions about how we can maintain a moral art code for gaming when the games themselves are often fantasies of violence and theft victimising Goblins etc. Personally I think you have to talk about it, in the Pratchett fashion to deconstruct problematic tropes wtih comedic fantasy.

But if folks disagree I still have my books and memories and I'll play in a different way. I'm open to changes in discourse, its fun to see things in new ways.


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## Patrick Lewis1

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> _Glantri_ as a standalone setting would be spectacular. Renaissance-era magocracy in a canal city? Yes, please.



yes although i would suggest it needs the context of non Magocracies around it to really work. Glantri is the perfect example of there are no good guys fantasy setting.


----------



## Alzrius

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I don't think those are proof of anything. The original creator of Dark Sun hypothetizes that WotC wouldn't touch the setting for X, Y and Z reasons, but doesn't know, and WotC wouldn't say. (Compare to all the people who say Movie X "could never be made today," ignoring how many movies of that type are still being made.)



You previously stated that you thought people were saying that "even the mention of the topic will be deemed offensive, even when in a negative light" without it actually occuring (where "the topic" is shorthand for things like "slavery or genocide or fascism or religious fanaticism"), to the point of it being disingenuous.

I'm pointing out that this does in fact occur, and pointing that out is in no way disingenuous.

For instance, Timothy Brown stated in the first link that:



> "The old saying is there's no such thing as bad publicity," he says. "Well, there is bad publicity today, and that would be bad publicity. I think, for the most part, you'd spend all your time apologizing and complaining and not making the game. It'd be very difficult. Very difficult."




...which is an understandable sentiment, given that the author of the article apparently feels no compunctions about generalizing how:



> Slavery is commonplace on Athas and, though it is not race-based, some TTRPG players feel that such an abhorrent practice has no place in the hobby.




So the premise that some people want it out of the hobby _entirely_, regardless of context, seems pretty well established.

Follow that up with the second link, which opens with a note saying:



> When it was originally published, this article did not acknowledge the elements of bioessentialism and racism present in both the original Dark Sun and Red Dawn, notably the setting’s handling of slavery. Dicebreaker absolutely does not support these views or any product that embodies them. We’re sorry for any harm caused by this article, and will address any such problematic elements in any future coverage.




Given that this seems to operate from a premise that the mere _presence_ of bioessentialism and racism are things that need to be apologized for, in that not acknowledging their presence (even if presented as something bad, as they were in Dark Sun) causes harm. So that seems to support the idea that their inclusion is harmful in-and-of itself.

The third link isn't something that can be dismissed either, as the anonymous letter received a personal response from Erik Mona, which suggests that he agrees with the idea that even mentioning slavery in the context of it having been declared illegal and only being something that bad guys do is not acceptable:



> Then there’s Erik Mona and _Absalom_. There are 126 references to slaves and slavery in the 402 pages of _Absalom. _Some of them are just recounting history. Some of them are references to abolition and aiding free people. Several of them are graphic descriptions of “illegal” slavery, human trafficking, prison abuse, organized crime and all the various ways that _Absalom _tries to have it both ways. What a [expletive deleted] slap in the face.




So even when it's presented as an inherently bad thing, it's unacceptable.

Given that, it seems like we can safely dispel the notion that there's a contingent of gamers who want these offensive topics removed from the gaming scene entirely, even when they're unambiguously presented as bad things. To say that this sentiment doesn't exist, and doesn't have traction (e.g. Paizo's acquiescence to that open letter), can therefore be dismissed as an argument.


----------



## Patrick Lewis1

Alzrius said:


> You previously stated that you thought people were saying that "even the mention of the topic will be deemed offensive, even when in a negative light" without it actually occuring (where "the topic" is shorthand for things like "slavery or genocide or fascism or religious fanaticism"), to the point of it being disingenuous.
> 
> I'm pointing out that this does in fact occur, and pointing that out is in no way disingenuous.
> 
> For instance, Timothy Brown stated in the first link that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...which is an understandable sentiment, given that the author of the article apparently feels no compunctions about generalizing how:
> 
> 
> 
> So the premise that some people want it out of the hobby _entirely_, regardless of context, seems pretty well established.
> 
> Follow that up with the second link, which opens with a note saying:
> 
> 
> 
> Given that this seems to operate from a premise that the mere _presence_ of bioessentialism and racism are things that need to be apologized for, in that not acknowledging their presence (even if presented as something bad, as they were in Dark Sun) causes harm. So that seems to support the idea that their inclusion is harmful in-and-of itself.
> 
> The third link isn't something that can be dismissed either, as the anonymous letter received a personal response from Erik Mona, which suggests that he agrees with the idea that even mentioning slavery in the context of it having been declared illegal and only being something that bad guys do is not acceptable:
> 
> 
> 
> So even when it's presented as an inherently bad thing, it's unacceptable.
> 
> Given that, it seems like we can safely dispel the notion that there's a contingent of gamers who want these offensive topics removed from the gaming scene entirely, even when they're unambiguously presented as bad things. To say that this sentiment doesn't exist, and doesn't have traction (e.g. Paizo's acquiescence to that open letter), can therefore be dismissed as an argument.



Context here is key. I think its okay for WOTC to remove the most promblematic elements and tropes from any of their settings. They and Hasbro want D&D to grow, and principally this growth to come from young adults. Lets have the first steps into the hobby be comfortable for kids growing up with very different social expectations than grognards like myself. Get 'em playing in welcoming fun settings. Theres plenty of time for the grimm dark later. And remember that the latest interpretation of a setting is just that. Fashions change. Wait long enough and it'll come back into fashion. But a hobby needs new people to live long enough to cycle....so let WOTC do what they think will grow our hobby and welcome your new soon to be gaming mates.


----------



## Alzrius

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> Context here is key.



I want to point out that I'm not advocating for anything in particular; I'm simply dispelling the notion that it's "disingenuous" to point out that there's a segment of gamers who don't want to see offensive content present in RPGs _in any context_. That sentiment is not a strawman, nor can it be dismissed as a fringe idea that no one takes seriously (as per Paizo's response), and should therefore be acknowledged when the topic is broached.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> yes although i would suggest it needs the context of non Magocracies around it to really work.



I don't know. The fact that it's different from its neighbors -- and deeply threatening to them, because the country is basically a bunch of living atomic bombs who can't get along with one another -- is probably fine.

HOT TAKE: If you say that Glantri existed in the First World and that the version on Mystara is just the best-known echo of it, you can make it a standalone thing with the Mystaran elements* sanded down pretty easily. Every fantasy world needs a canal city full of scheming wizards.

* Mysterious magical power sources are a dime a dozen in D&D worlds. Glantri doesn't need the Radiance to work.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

Alzrius said:


> So even when it's presented as an inherently bad thing, it's unacceptable.



Which one of those links are meant to be representative of society as a whole? There is some Stretch Armstrong level stretching going here.

If _you_ don't want Dark Sun to come back, that's cool. (I honestly have no dog in this fight, beyond sticking up for logic and reason.) But there's no obstacle to bringing it back, especially since WotC has shown no hesitation about changing things they feel ought to be changed. But "oh no, the bad guys are demonstrably bad by their actions, not their ethnicity," is not a compelling argument.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Alzrius said:


> nor can it be dismissed as a fringe idea that no one takes seriously (as per Paizo's response), and should therefore be acknowledged when the topic is broached.



Unless they publish stats or, better yet, data from a rigorous survey, there's no way to determine whether it's a fringe belief or not.

The fact that WotC, which _does_ survey its audience, arguably to excess, thinks that there is an audience for Dark Sun -- they keep asking about it and they published psionic rules in late 2020 -- suggests that the audience isn't large enough to be an issue for them.


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## Alzrius

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Which one of those links are meant to be representative of society as a whole?



This is a strawman; it was never put forward that they represent "society as a whole," just that the sentiment cannot be dismissed as something "disingenuous" when it's acknowledged.


Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> If _you_ don't want Dark Sun to come back, that's cool. (I honestly have no dog in this fight, beyond sticking up for logic and reason.) But there's no obstacle to bringing it back, especially since WotC has shown no hesitation about changing things they feel ought to be changed. But "oh no, the bad guys are demonstrably bad by their actions, not their ethnicity," is not a compelling argument.



If you want to stick up for logic and reason, then I recommend not trying to dismiss a viewpoint whose existence is not only unsubtle but has already demonstrated its acknowledgment in the industry as "disingenuous."


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## Yaarel

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Which one of those links are meant to be representative of society as a whole? There is some Stretch Armstrong level stretching going here.
> 
> If _you_ don't want Dark Sun to come back, that's cool. (I honestly have no dog in this fight, beyond sticking up for logic and reason.) But there's no obstacle to bringing it back, especially since WotC has shown no hesitation about changing things they feel ought to be changed. But "oh no, the bad guys are demonstrably bad by their actions, not their ethnicity," is not a compelling argument.



Heh. To be fair, the 5e designers threw Dark Sun into a blackhole and never mentioned slavery.


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## Alzrius

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Unless they publish stats or, better yet, data from a rigorous survey, there's no way to determine whether it's a fringe belief or not.



So you're admitting that the belief is real, and not "disingenuous" when its existence is acknowledged?

As for how fringe it is, I'm of the opinion that when gaming websites and designers are referencing it, and one company changes their stance on the topic to align with it, that's when it stops being fringe, but YMMV.


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## Patrick Lewis1

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I don't know. The fact that it's different from its neighbors -- and deeply threatening to them, because the country is basically a bunch of living atomic bombs who can't get along with one another -- is probably fine.
> 
> HOT TAKE: If you say that Glantri existed in the First World and that the version on Mystara is just the best-known echo of it, you can make it a standalone thing with the Mystaran elements* sanded down pretty easily. Every fantasy world needs a canal city full of scheming wizards.
> 
> * Mysterious magical power sources are a dime a dozen in D&D worlds. Glantri doesn't need the Radiance to work.



You sir are my kind of Gnome! I do kinda like the radiance, rad stuff. And for me its important that the players are the scheming wizards at the school. Glantrian wizards are a far more responsible representation of wizards at school than Hogwarts. Glantri is fundamentalist, racist and cruel setting...much like the Harry Potter setting. It is weird how folks let the representation of Goblins. house elves and Muggles( British white and blue collar workers if you hadn't picked op on it) slide for years. Glantrians banning all religious faiths and clerics, enslaving Halflings and Dwarves for monstorous experiments. I mean half the glantrian princess are undead and the others have a touch of the wolf about em,. Explain it as the players competing to be diabolical in a horror movie kitsch halloween fun way and its a giggle.


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## Yaarel

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> You sir are my kind of Gnome! I do kinda like the radiance, rad stuff. And for me its important that the players are the scheming wizards at the school. Glantrian wizards are a far more responsible representation of wizards at school than Hogwarts. Glantri is fundamentalist, racist and cruel setting...much like the Harry Potter setting. It is weird how folks let the representation of Goblins. house elves and Muggles( British white and blue collar workers if you hadn't picked op on it) slide for years. Glantrians banning all religious faiths and clerics, enslaving Halflings and Dwarves for monstorous experiments. I mean half the glantrian princess are undead and the others have a touch of the wolf about em,. Explain it as the players competing to be diabolical in a horror movie kitsch halloween fun way and its a giggle.



What is the post saying?

Because Potter is classist, it is ok for Glantri to be racist?


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## Patrick Lewis1

Yaarel said:


> What is the post saying?
> 
> Because Potter is classist, it is ok for Glantri to be racist?



No not at all. Its not OK for Glantri to be racist. ITS NEVER OK TO BE RACIST.

Its not OK at all, thats kinda the point. Players should want to change it....

 Glantri is seen as a fundamentally unpleasant nation by most other nations in the Mystara setting in game world, its a place of horror settings. It is overtly racist in setting, seen by other nations a fundamentalist and extremist. And its very classist too, only magic users and elves having political rights to be princes. In the original gazzetter there was a beginners campaign in which students( Magic users) attended the school of magic and could have chosen to subvert the political system of the setting. In fact the mega campaign in Wrath of the Immortals fundamentally alters alot of the power dynamics in Glantri as well as another Lycanthropy supplement in which you could be revolutionary were creatures fighting against tyranny. I think we can still have a laugh whilst playing in that setting. I think characters can play diabolical without being actual bigots.

The similarities with the attending a magical school were what made me think of potter. Although I would argue that actually perhaps the setting will increasingly be seen as problematic, Its kids fighting a resurgent Evil yes. But the secret wizarding world has quite alot of unpleseant elements too and in an RPG campaign they'd be interesting to take on. There wider societal villany in Potter thats kinda ignored, wizards secretly ruling muggles and having slaves etc. I think playing in the Potterverse as is maybe more insensative than Glantri in flux. Potterverse with social/political change could be really interesting.

Settings where goverments are despotic and laws are unjust seem pretty normal in fantasy, i've run alot of rebellion vs empire star wars redressed in medieval fantasy. Lots of Robin Hood stuff. 

Apolgies if I took us off the thread...sorry Mystara lead to Glantri which made me think Hogwarts.

And to be clear having bigots as bad guys in your game does not make your game bigotted. Having morally dubious characters does not make the players morally dubious. And having a setting with evil in it does not make you supportive of evil ideas.


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## Remathilis

Glantri has been done using WotC's current design paradigm. It's called Strixhaven.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Alzrius said:


> So you're admitting that the belief is real, and not "disingenuous" when its existence is acknowledged?
> 
> As for how fringe it is, I'm of the opinion that when gaming websites and designers are referencing it, and one company changes their stance on the topic to align with it, that's when it stops being fringe, but YMMV.



If I previously denied that any people anywhere thought this was an issue, I misspoke, as that's not ever something I ever believe. 

However, I don't think proving that at least a handful of people on the vast internet believe a thing means it's particularly meaningful. I am confident we can find people who think that WotC's actions should be dictated by the wishes of the secretly living Elvis Presley; that doesn't mean their numbers are meaningful or that the industry is going to bow to their wishes.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> You sir are my kind of Gnome! I do kinda like the radiance, rad stuff. And for me its important that the players are the scheming wizards at the school. Glantrian wizards are a far more responsible representation of wizards at school than Hogwarts. Glantri is fundamentalist, racist and cruel setting...much like the Harry Potter setting. It is weird how folks let the representation of Goblins. house elves and Muggles( British white and blue collar workers if you hadn't picked op on it) slide for years. Glantrians banning all religious faiths and clerics, enslaving Halflings and Dwarves for monstorous experiments. I mean half the glantrian princess are undead and the others have a touch of the wolf about em,. Explain it as the players competing to be diabolical in a horror movie kitsch halloween fun way and its a giggle.



Yeah, Glantri is a great example of how a campaign can be based in an evil setting without it devolving into (IMO) ridiculousness like Menzoberranzan, where it strains credulity that the whole place hasn't been destroyed by civil war.

The Glantrian ruling class is definitely -- as a group -- evil, but many NPCs and probably most PCs will find ways to justify turning a blind eye to it all, especially for the promise of magical power. But it's also a setting where heroic characters can and should be working to overthrow the magocracy as it's currently constructed, against some long odds. That's a pretty compelling setting, right there.

Plus, as has been mentioned, canal cities are rad. (But not necessarily Rad.)


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## Micah Sweet

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> If I previously denied that any people anywhere thought this was an issue, I misspoke, as that's not ever something I ever believe.
> 
> However, I don't think proving that at least a handful of people on the vast internet believe a thing means it's particularly meaningful. I am confident we can find people who think that WotC's actions should be dictated by the wishes of the secretly living Elvis Presley; that doesn't mean their numbers are meaningful or that the industry is going to bow to their wishes.



Are you truly operating under the assumption that, because _ you_ don't think it's an issue, there can't possibly be enough people out there who do for it to make a difference?


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## Micah Sweet

Remathilis said:


> Glantri has been done using WotC's current design paradigm. It's called Strixhaven.



If Strixhaven is WotC's version of that kind of society, that book is even worse than I thought it was.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Micah Sweet said:


> Are you truly operating under the assumption that, because _ you_ don't think it's an issue, there can't possibly be enough people out there who do for it to make a difference?



No.

I don't know what you and a handful of others are hoping for in this thread, but it's extremely strange.

Are you hoping to sway everyone around to the extremely odd idea that there will soon be no villains in D&D because someone at ComicBook.com said you can't have slavery in a D&D book?

You have to know that's a silly position to be taking.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Remathilis said:


> Glantri has been done using WotC's current design paradigm. It's called Strixhaven.



This isn't even remotely true.


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## Tonguez

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Retroactively. It was its own thing originally and it works fine as a standalone setting.
> 
> That said, WotC already has Phandelver as their (mostly) standalone starting setting and they're tripling down on it with next year's campaign book. I don't think there's a convincing pitch to make to WotC about Thunder Rift. (Again, just open it up on DMs Guild, WotC.)



Not retroactive

Colin McComb say that it was always _intended_ to be in the mountains near Karameikos, but was also designed to be dropped into any setting as a GM tutorial


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## AnotherGuy

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> Honestly I think that Mystara may be the answer to the modern morale conundrum of RPGS.
> 
> It uses a idea core to Warhammer 40K success, that there are no good guys. That there are just the polilitics and philisophies of  a weird bunch of historical analogies. Good races and Evil races was always a dumb RPG trope and are very much core to post  Tolkien fantasy. The evil race/nation thing always bothered me about Forgotten Realms.
> 
> The two global super powers of the Mystaran setting Thyatis and Alphatia are both pretty awful exploitative empires. And even the Immortals manipulating the conflict at the heart of the Wrath of the immortals are not Good/Evil. I think that fantasy emergent from the setting can be explored in a sensative and fun way. Not by arguing for cultutural relativism but by asking players what theyre happy about exploring.
> 
> The Isle of Dread( A core mystaran experience) which has a free 5e version knocking around from the 5E D&D Next playtest, could be run incredibly insensitively with racist and colonial tropes. Or it could be played without the bigotry and instead with understanding and treated as a first cultural contact( psuedo europeans meeting psuedo south sea islanders).



You and I are the same. You do not have to sell me about the rich-tapestry that is Mystara and all its RP options.
To be honest I do not care one iota about the modern morale conundrum within RPGs. The loyal fanbase has done a wonderful job with the setting and from my perspective we do not need WotC screaming in to muck it up after all these years, all the while extorting the customer base, and likely initiating twitter rages for those offended.


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## AnotherGuy

Patrick Lewis1 said:


> Orcs of Thar is still the best RPG product of its era



I like it too in that it fleshes out the humanoid clans across the known world, gives us the blue knife backstory (which I fleshed out to be a shard of the Rod of 7 Parts), integrates well with the surrounding territories and provides plenty of humanoid politics and religious conflict.

Despite all that, the best by far has to be the Principalities of Glantri.


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## DiasExMachina

Micah Sweet said:


> Ultramodern for 5e covers a lot of this.  Its a major component of my homebrew.



Thanks for the support.


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## DiasExMachina

Haplo781 said:


> I would love to specifically see Urban Arcana from d20 Modern, but that wasn't really a D&D setting.



Ultramodern5 -REDUX adds a lot of techno magic to our sci-fi rules.


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