# You're a villain. How would you change the world? Contest with prizes. (Spoilers for ZEITGEIST)



## RangerWickett (Jun 23, 2013)

In the ZEITGEIST adventure path, a villainous organization is deciding just _how_ it wants to change the world. We're asking EN World to help us make that decision. If you're playing ZEITGEIST, you should probably get out of this thread.

Everyone else, vote for whichever faction's plan appeals to you most. One member of each of the five main factions will win a free PDF copy of our ZEITGEIST Act One compilation, which combines the first five adventures of the campaign. Also, we'll choose one person who we feel best contributed to the event and reward them with a hardcover version of the book when it's ready. (Estimated delivery date January 2014.)

Finally, after our ZEITGEIST Kickstarter project finishes on July 15th, we'll hold an additional secret vote open only to Kickstarter backers and to EN World community supporters. 

You can vote for up to three factions, and the results of this vote will be reflected in the ZEITGEIST adventure path. Join us, and decide the fate of the world!


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## RangerWickett (Jun 23, 2013)

Oh, also, a few notes.

Basically, the plan is to perform a ritual that will alter the nature of reality. So you should choose which New World Order most appeals to you, plus perhaps vote for one or two of the minor factions that you'd like to add on.

The first five factions are the major power groups among the villains. Factions marked with an asterisk (*) are minor factions that can easily be included in one of the major groups' plans. Factions marked with two asterisks (**) are fringe and radical ideas no one is publicly admitting to.

If you want more details behind the villainous conspiracy and their plans, please see our discussion thread.


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## Hand of Evil (Jun 23, 2013)

I lean to Watch Makers / Nationalist / War Mongers, they keep the rest of the world in a state of war, while keeping their nation supreme.


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## Siberys (Jun 23, 2013)

Panarchist/Sky League/Materialists

Panarchist - These guys have the right balance of good intentions and bad methodology, with the right level of presumption built in. This is the group I'd expect Watchmen's Ozymandius to be in, and that's the metric I'd personally use for determining what's what.

Sky League - Because then I'd have a reason to insist on the presence of Flying Whales. Because /Flying Whales/.

Materialists - They just strike me as the right level of malignant. Not 'end the world' crazy, but a major, world-changing goal no less. Amorals sit here too, but I'd be more interested in seeing the fallout if the Materialists succeeding.


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## Relique du Madde (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm devious.

First I will make a Celestial Bureaucracy. After a few years of celestrial rule I would spark a Panarchist rebellion based on the people's resentment of a Angels telling the mortals how to live their lives.  With a vague whisper and promise of unlimited superpowers, I will grant superpowers to random (mostly embittered) individuals knowing that few among the empowered will find themselves wanting to become the new overlords of creations.  Then I will assassinate the hero of the empowered and the Celestrial hero igniting a war.  As a result of the battles between the "Celestrials" and the "Empowered", mundanes will be force to decide who they want to lord over them.  Meanwhile I would  initiate a Weapon-Monger agenda and begin building Angel-killing and Super-Power nullification weapons, knowing that some mortals will choose to eliminate both the Divine and Empowered alike, causing a perpetual arms race.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 24, 2013)

I dig it. Please prepare your villainous monologue for when the heroes bust in to thwart your devious plan while celestials and empowereds battle on the fields outside your palace.

Your _non-flying_ palace, though, since you didn't vote Sky League.


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## gideonpepys (Jun 24, 2013)

*Miller's Pyre.  *This conspiracy has the chance to change the world for the better, and I love the idea that a desire to do good is at the heart of it all, justifying short-term acts of evil for the long-term prosperity of all sentient beings. (But there is a delicious contradiction inherent in a vote for Miller's Pyre, which I will explain at the end of my post.)

The doctrine of Miller's Pyre is that all evil stems from the capacity of sentient races to 'dehumanise' (for want of a better term) large sections of the population - whether that be a different race, nationality or subclass; in war or at peace.  Miller's Pyre does not seek to hardwire 'goodness' which removes freewill, but simply to cause individuals to feel the pain they inflict more sharply.  It makes no judgements beyond that, and does not try to predict what challenges the world will face in the furture.

This choice is the most benign choice - the only one that hands free will back to the people, and does not focus power in the hands of the individual. Every other potentially benign choice - Parnarchists, Colossus - assumes an essential goodness in humanity (I use the term to cover all sentient races) which history has proved does not exist.  

For those who like the idea that their players will be confronted with an essentially benign conspiracy, which has gone badly - and accidentally - wrong, and whose authors must be confronted with the wickedness of their _means_, not their _ends_, this is the only choice.  It is the most original precisely because it is unquestionably good, whereas the flawed wisdom and logic of other seemingly benign choices would not take long at all to pick out, thereby avoiding a juicy moral dilemma.

The other, lesser choices are much less important, but insofar as most interfere with my primary choice in some way, I'm going with Sky League because, well... why not?  And Humble Hook, because I'd rather we did _nothing_ that something nefarious.

I would like to choose _aegis_ if it was possible to achieve with our spare plane.  It might even be feasible for Miller's Pyre to ally with Sky League and Aegis together if the right combination can be found.

A vote for Miller's Pyre is a vote for moral complexity; a vote for juicy dilemmas of the kind that give players nightmares. * So from a metagaming perspective it is not a vote for 'goodness' at all!  In fact, I would go so far as to argue that the cruellest and most wicked DMs would vote this way if only to torment their PCs.*


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## ltclnlbrain (Jun 24, 2013)

The sound of a cane rapping on the stone floor of the assembly hall draws your attention to a tall and slender man. His dark hair is pulled back into a long ponytail, revealing the lengths of the pointed ears which mark him as a high elf. He wears a finely-cut red suit with a white cravat. He leans forward on his mithral cane and peers through his spectacles at the assembled conspirators.

"My brethren," he begins, "my name is Leyander Colt and I speak on behalf Lady Kasvarina Varal in her absence. I needn't remind you that our people are a long-lived race, and many of us alive today still remember the pain and death caused by the Great Malice centuries ago. An entire race of people brought to its knees by a single horrific act spurred by xenophobia and intolerance. With the power we will soon command, one of our goals should be to make sure nothing so devastating ever happens to anybody in this world again. And the key to achieving this is to eliminate the baseless fears and misunderstandings of the myriad peoples of Lanjyr."

Leyander taps his cane again as he continues. "You have heard the members of other factions speak of their own plans to change the world: industrialize nature's bounty, grant godlike powers either to the elite or to the laymen, even eliminate free will entirely. We know not what horrific consequences such drastic changes to our cosmology might render. Better, then, to take a gentle hand with our ministrations. I say to you, we need not shake the very core of the multiverse to find peace in our time. All we need is to allow everybody to clearly see the viewpoints of one another, to truly understand where a person is coming from. Elf, human, beggar, king, Danoran, Risuri--in the end, we are none of us so different from one another.

"Empathy. Expression. Logic. With just a few subtle changes, we can eliminate the need for fighting, the desire for war. Word and thoughts will win the day, not guns and magic. And within our plans, there is still room for expansion--to bolster our defenses against potential extraplanar incursions, or to allow extra enjoyment of our newfound propensity for expression. Perhaps even the opportunity to bring easy flight to the landbound peoples of the world. When the time comes to vote, I urge you to consider the tenets espoused by Miller's Pyre."

Leyander grins and inclines his head. "I would be happy to debate any of you further on the merits of our vision for the future."


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## gideonpepys (Jun 24, 2013)

*Vote for Miller's Pyre!*

@ltclnlbrain: Thanks for writing out such an eloquent representation of the doctrine of the Miller's Pyre faction.  I wondered if I would have the time to render it in narrative/oratorical form if no one else did it.  By the way - did you vote for the faction already?  I didn't see the % increase, so I'm assuming you must have chosen before I did.


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## ltclnlbrain (Jun 24, 2013)

[MENTION=79141]gideonpepys[/MENTION]: Yes, I voted for it with the Aegis sub-goal. Now I just hope we can convince others to lean in that direction as well.


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jun 24, 2013)

I have explained on the discussion thread but to make it short, 'the path to hell is paved with good intentions', Panarchist is the way to go,  will both surprise the players and is the one that will make the bigger impact and make things go wrong, really wrong.


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## Shilubi (Jun 24, 2013)

Miller's doctrine...really?
What's in man's mind? Emotion and logic don't make up for morals. You could end up with very bad things, emotionaly shared and enforced by logic.
There's no safeguard against evil in your plan.
Your plan is a tool to easily convert people, but you don't say who will convert them! 
And worse, you open the world to extraplanar influence!
Did i say "devils"?

The true, courageous way is the Watchmakers.
We will make sure we go the right path.
We will make sure _everyone_ go the right path.

We might not have another chance to put things right.


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## Shilubi (Jun 24, 2013)

This being said, i have to confront the most popular doctrine right now, the Panarchist.

Won't be long.

Read this:
"People who made agreements would be able to share a bit of each other's soul, which would make pledges binding. Anyone who shirked on a promise would forfeit a piece of his soul."

Whoa.
Binding agreements, made on one's soul.
And this from Han Jierre, who's a tiefling.

'nuff said.

Not my future...


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## ltclnlbrain (Jun 25, 2013)

Leyander raises at eyebrow at the Watchman's argument. "Ah, yes? 'We' will make sure everybody follows the right path. Who are these few 'we' who get to decide which path is the right path? You desire to enforce morality by eliminating free will, but whose morality, I ask? Is it the morality of the Clergy? The Danorans? The Risuri? What makes one person's or people's 'goodness' better than another's?  Instead of seeking to understand the differences that make us unique, you wish to make us all conform to a stale, mechanical sameness. The world would be populated with naught but mindless automatons!"

The elf raps his cane on the floor. "Our ability to think for ourselves and to reason is the thing that separates man from machine. The thing that makes us unique and vibrant. You would rob us of our very souls!" Leyander lets the silence hang in the air for a few moments, then continues. "As for your other point, you fear the chance for extraplanar assault. If we listened to you and abandoned our free will, what then would happen should devils, to use your example, chose to invade our plane of existence? Does your thousand-year plan have contingencies for such an occurence, or would the whole system fall to pieces without the ability to adapt and react to outside threats?

"Under Miller's Pyre, with increased understanding and communication, the varied peoples of Lanjyr could easily come together and unite against a common external threat. Think of what powers we could muster with all of us working side by side. And it might not even have to come to that, if we use the extra planar space to bolster the new multiverse with the protections those of the Aegis desire."

Leyander adjusts his spectacles and turns to address the Panarchists. "I would like to remind you all of a simple maxim. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What, then, follows when everybody possesses absolute power? You claim you wish to infuse the individual with defensive abilities, but what you will get is bands of super-powered men and women doing whatever they want with no checks to their powers. Instead of preserving civilization, it will lead to its collapse!"


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## gideonpepys (Jun 25, 2013)

ltclnlbrain said:


> "I would like to remind you all of a simple maxim. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What, then, follows when everybody possesses absolute power? You claim you wish to infuse the individual with defensive abilities, but what you will get is bands of super-powered men and women doing whatever they want with no checks to their powers. Instead of preserving civilization, it will lead to its collapse!"




This is the essential flaw at the heart of Panarchism: if everybody is afforded the same level of power - defensive or otherwise - then power structures will inevitably form, perhaps on different lines to our current world, but their formation is an inevitability.  How else is power among equals derived?  Through systems of government.  The assumption that, if everyone is equal, equality will reign forgets the simple fact that here and now everyone _is_ equal and that it is structures of government that create inequality in the first place.


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## Empirate (Jun 25, 2013)

I voted for a mix of Arboretum, Colossus, and Moral Mind. There is a threefold agenda with this conspiracy, and it is all humanist:

Premise:
Industry is the greatest creation of humanity (used in the widest possible sense). It is proof that by working  together as a well-organized whole, with each doing their part, welfare can be produced for the  many. Industry will, in due time, eliminate want, thereby eliminating imbalance of resources (of all kinds), and the need to acquire them "the hard way". The only thing that cannot be produced in a factory (metaphorically speaking) is the freedom to enjoy the fruits of industry: freedom of body as well as of mind, with a much greater emphasis on the latter, since it is harder to acquire.

1. 
Nature is a powerful force, perhaps the most powerful force in  existence. If humanity wishes to be  free, the wilds must be tamed. If humanity wishes to prosper, the earth  they inhabit must supply the means. Never must the capricious forces of  wind or water, fire or earthquake be allowed to lay waste towns by their  whims. Never must a human child starve so an animal can live. Never, in  a thousand years, must the incomprehensible fey be able to withhold an  ounce of what might be useful to a human, or empowered to actively withhold that which is needed to produce universal welfare. Fey are not part of humanity. They are humanity's adversary (potentially, at least) in the inevitable struggle over complete control of nature.

2.
The Colossus is the solution to the fey problem as well as the freedom desideratum. The fey court is powerful, the fey titans unpredictable and possibly near deific in their potency. If (when) war over nature comes, the Colossus is humanity's answer to the fey titan's prowess. Nothing will stand against it. Humanity will rule supreme.
When industry has reached the stage where it can create a virtual god, belief in the power of industry to do whatever is needed will be rendered an incontrovertible truth. Having created their own god, humanity will be freed from the necessity to seek for other higher powers out there: god is that which humans' hands are capable of creating. In essence, humanity itself is the Demiurge, and gods are merely that which humanity wills into being. This simple fact is that which frees us all.

3.
In creating a god-like being, humanity (or at least that part of it which built the Colossus) has left the ties of superstition and religion far, far behind. It is now possible to demonstrate in the clearest terms the utter lack of necessity for other belief systems besides the enlightened mind of creative humanity. After the feys' demise, even the most ignorant of humans will be forced to open their eyes.


With industrial welfare and freedom from extraneous powers and so-called gods comes that mixture of spare time and unbounded roaming of the mind which allows for education, self-awareness, perfection of the individual, and the striving for new and greater things. That is the goal of the conspiracy. However, such lofty goals require wading through the mud, and the blood, for an extended period of time. It will be worth it, but a struggle will come first that will shatter the spheres as we know them, and leave countless dead. Such is the price of great endeavours.


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## Shilubi (Jun 25, 2013)

We is us, the Obscurati. Who else?

We will define what is good.

Miller's Pyre will ease unity. As i said, it's a tool to convert people.
But what ideology will unite them?
You don't adress this.
You just hope it will lead to good endings...

And your example, dear Leyander, is faulty:
The interplanar barriers won't be weakened, so an assault is ruled out. Not something _we_ have to take into consideration.
But for example sake, let's say it happens...devils assaulting our world.
A world where everyone has an ideology that opposes them. 
People they won't be able to seduce or sway with logic. 
It's in our plan that the devils will have to fight the whole world.
And for what?
A place where, if they stay too long, they might have their ethos changed for goodness?

Our burden and duty is to make sure we will succeed in creating a better place.
The Watchmaker's plans are drastic, but that's what is needed to succeed.
A thousand years where everyone will have to be good. No choice. Soulless.
Our tabula rasa.
Then free will.


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## gideonpepys (Jun 25, 2013)

Shilubi said:


> Then free will.




The elderly ice mage Glaz du Sang Magi* rises to his feet.  

"'Then free will', he says.  Just like that.  One thousand years of dictatorship, then... _this_." He gestures expansively to indicate the whole world.  "I did not forgo my lifelong vow of pacifism for a such a bizarre admixture of arrogance and apathy.  I have shed blood for the greater good, and would curse myself for all eternity if this is what I turned out to be fighting for.  No one man, or group of men, should consider themselves wise enough to set in stone what is 'good' for all humanity.Since the earliest days of history, men have thought they were 'right', and sought to impose their version of goodness on others.  That is how Elfaivar came to be destroyed, and the Great Malice swept through northern Lanjyr; that is how the clergy comes to hold sway and indoctrinate millions of ignorant people.  This, my friends, is what we have been fighting _against_!  And worse still, having doomed the forgotten future to this slavery, it is then proposed that we relinquish our grip and pray that a world that has been _forced _to be 'good' will choose to continue to do so.

"No, Miller's Pyre does not seek to impose an ideology on the world.  That is its very strength, not a weakness.  Our 'hope' is much stronger than the hopes of the Watchmakers, because it is founded on _empathy_ which will not fade in a thousand years.  You starve your brother and you feel his pangs; you slay your neighbour and you sense his fear, and grieve along with his loved ones.  Perhaps there will be those who _enjoy_ such sensations, or even grow inured to them.  But the brotherhood of man will be ever more strongly united against such evil, psychopathic individuals.

"And remember: we have a spare plane.  If interplanar security is your principal concern, vote for Miller's Pyre _and _Aegis."

*or his ghost, depending upon events in your campaign...


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## ltclnlbrain (Jun 25, 2013)

"Nature need not be an enemy," says Leyander. "Many factions of Vekeshi mystics have strong ties with the fey of the Unseen Court. Indeed, all of Risur benefits from that king's pact with the fey titans of that land. Again, I believe this is a case of xenophobic warmongering on the part of the Arboretum. Perhaps in the brave new world we envision, the fey will be no less inscrutable than our fellow men.

"The Colossus agenda shares the same flaws as the Watchmakers' plan. Who are we, the few who would control great power or who would lock in the future of our world to an inflexible timeline? What gives us the right to decide a blanket collection of mores and morals and apply it to every single person, despite each one's circumstances? Simply because we have the ability to do so, we should do it?" The elf shakes his head. "I have faith in the better nature of humanity. I believe each man should have the right to choose his own destiny, and the power to understand and recognize the right of his brothers and sisters to do so as well, even if their chosen paths be different than his. For there is no one true path that anybody can say is absolutely best for all, but all must respect and accept the path that each man chooses for himself. That, my brethren, is the path to lasting peace. That way lies enlightenment."


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## RangerWickett (Jun 25, 2013)

*clears throat quietly, takes a sip of water*

I do appreciate and encourage the debate over the Panarchists, the Pyre, and so on. Do feel free to carry on, but I'd recommend we not become self-recursive in our discussion. If for nothing else than to inject some fresh ideas into the conversation, would perhaps someone like to take the position of devil's advocate for one of the factions that has so far received less attention. I must say, it's disconcerting that no one has been willing to stand up and speak out in favor of destroying the world.

*sarcastic grin*

Anyway, carry on. And remember, if your opinion is swayed, you can change your vote. (Go up to the poll and select Unvote at the top right.)


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## gideonpepys (Jun 25, 2013)

RangerWickett said:


> Anyway, carry on. And remember, if your opinion is swayed, you can change your vote. (Go up to the poll and select Unvote at the top right.)




Yes, this is important.  I've changed my secondary choices already.


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## aglondier (Jun 27, 2013)

Miller's Pyre, Moral Mind, Materialists. 

I love the idea of the "good guys" winning...and getting exactly what they asked for, a regime so terrifyingly good and moral and right that they cannot exist within it. I would also include the Moral Mind/Materialists because magic/superstition/religion are the cause of many of the worlds woes...and pretty much the only threat to the coming world order.


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## DonTadow (Jun 28, 2013)

I voted for Materialists and Moral Minded, to me they both mean the same thing. 

Analyzing the campaign, I would think that the organization's goals are grand in scope and life changing. Two of the "head" members were greatly effected by magic, the victim of magic twisted to destroy a god and curse an entire nation. The third lives forever from body to body. We don't know if this is a curse or not.  I can imagine that as the industrial age is ushering in, magic is still a thorn in the side of progression.  If we eliminate magic, we put the world on one accord and set a course for its future, a normal nonmagical world.


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## gideonpepys (Jun 28, 2013)

DonTadow said:


> I voted for Materialists and Moral Minded, to me they both mean the same thing.




Unless I'm mistaken, you haven't picked a major faction yet.  Might I humbly suggest that your choices and your reasoning lend themselves to a vote for Miller's Pyre?


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## Will Doyle (Jun 28, 2013)

The Arboretum - Command the Green. Harness it like steel. 
Weapon Mongers - Unleash the fungal spores! 
Nationalists - Purge our enemies like weeds, and seed our empire from the ruins.


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## Ajar (Jun 28, 2013)

“The Pyre, while a noble ideal, is fundamentally flawed.” The cutting voice seems at odds with the speaker, a rotund woman with soft features. 

“Jiese, the plane of fire, carries the aspect of Cunning. It is this aspect that drives the gears of industry -- the gears of revolution! The Pyre would replace Cunning with Expression, enhancing our understanding of others’ motivations. Combined with their other changes, it would be far easier for groups of sentient beings to come to consensus. 

“As I said, a noble ideal! But what of the cost? The loss of Cunning means the loss of progress, invention, technology. Consensus would lead to stagnation! Perhaps this would suit some within the Watchmakers: a form of social utopia where everyone agrees with everyone else, and no new ideas are promulgated. I doubt this is what the Pyre’s advocates intend, and perhaps it is an extreme vision, but we cannot risk the loss of industry! That would bind us forever to the earth, forgoing the possibilities of flight, or of planar travel. While replacing Apet as the Pyre plans would bring us closer to other planes, the preservation of Nem would still prevent us from exploring what lies beyond. 

“I see many unfamiliar faces here, a sign that our group’s distributed structure is an effective one. I am Dame Constance Baden, scholar and scientist, and I speak for the Sky League. We in the Sky League have allied ourselves with the Trekkers, those who wish to voyage beyond the realms currently known to us. We stand ready to throw our weight behind a major faction that welcomes our ideals. 

“Jiese must be preserved: on this, I think all factions that favour progress and industry over stagnant isolation can agree. Further, tampering with Reida is too great a risk. We are willing to partner with factions that will leave both Jiese and Reida untouched. 

“The planes that must be replaced are Avilona and Nem. Avilona’s Calm trait discourages progress, and replacing it would finally unshackle Jiese’s Cunning! Moreover, associating Calm with the Plane of Air prevents flight, grounding us and forcing us to travel by boat or train. But if this Calm trait is replaced, there is an opportunity to craft great vessels that will carry us to the skies! 

“I have designed just such a vessel. I call it... the ZEPPELIN!

“A functioning model has been constructed, and even as I speak now it is floating above the ground of our pocket plane. Please observe it at your leisure.

“Meanwhile, Nem locks us away from the world. Imagine what lands we might find beyond the seals? What we might learn? Naturally, there are risks, but eternal isolation would be a far greater threat to our civilization. With proper defences, the risks of extraplanar invasion can be mitigated. And we need not become the world’s overlords, as Colossus suggests – with Cunning unshackled, our technology would be our defence! Some of you may have heard of the strange beasts sighted at the Kaybeau Exposition in Flint. How could such creatures hope to stand against the ZEPPELIN?

“We would also support replacing Urim, Apet and Mavisha, but this is not essential. Mavisha’s Mystery trait is an impediment to progress, but it is less severe than Calm. Teleportation magic is also less important in a land where flight is possible. And finally, Apet’s distance property could be part of a reasonable defence against extraplanar invasion once Nem is replaced.

“If the Pyre, Colossus, Arboretum, or Panarchists are willing to revise their plans to accommodate us, we will gladly assist with the planar alignment calculations.”


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jun 28, 2013)

As a supporter to the Panarchist Cause I have to say that i find interesting to see that wonderful flying machine made! so i will support the sky league. Conquering the sky will be the ultimate form of freedom and we, the Panarchist believe above all on freedom. 

I'm making a call on my friends of the Miller Pyre to stop the plans of the Watchmakers and join our group in search of a future with no Gods, No Countries, No Kings. Just living beings freely deciding how to rule their lives!


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## gideonpepys (Jul 1, 2013)

Ajar said:


> “If the Pyre, Colossus, Arboretum, or Panarchists are willing to revise their plans to accommodate us, we will gladly assist with the planar alignment calculations.”





Miller's Pyre is the most readily able to accommodate your needs, as  our plan has a spare plane. Consider it done. If your vote goes for the  Pyre, I would certainly vote for the Sky League - that was, in fact my  original vote!



Hitomi Camacho said:


> I'm making a call on my friends of the Miller Pyre to stop the plans of the Watchmakers and join our group in search of a future with no Gods, No Countries, No Kings. Just living beings freely deciding how to rule their lives!




We might very well call upon you to do just the same!


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## gideonpepys (Jul 1, 2013)

Ajar said:


> “If the Pyre, Colossus, Arboretum, or Panarchists are willing to revise their plans to accommodate us, we will gladly assist with the planar alignment calculations.”





Miller's Pyre is the most readily able to accommodate your needs, as  our plan has a spare plane. Consider it done. If your vote goes for the  Pyre, I would certainly vote for the Sky League - that was, in fact my  original vote!



Hitomi Camacho said:


> I'm making a call on my friends of the Miller Pyre to stop the plans of the Watchmakers and join our group in search of a future with no Gods, No Countries, No Kings. Just living beings freely deciding how to rule their lives!




We might very well call upon you to do just the same! In fact, your vote is slightly lower than ours right now, so the switch would be more profitable.


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## Shilubi (Jul 1, 2013)

My heartily thanks to all of you discussing about our grand plan.

It has been refeshing, and the support gathered to the Watchmaker's plan has given us voice and weight.


But then, what else?

People are now reviewing the smaller trends, among which the popular Moral Mind.
To those supporting this cause, i will say this:
Do you really think that rationality will make a better world?
Moral is about what you believe in and/or what you think, take the belief out of the picture, you will still be left with some bad apples, thinking bad apples.
I still remember when the name for this cause was the Mor_t_al Mind, and that was far more accurate.

Still, not bad per se. But if you support the Mortal Mind as your only plan for the future, you are only promoting your hate against faith. 
I say that means you don't mind about the future,
I say this is not a moral choice, despite the name.

The Long Now is popular too.
And i do understand your plan. There is high hope that long term thinking will lead to more responsible behaviors.
Not my choice, but a very good one.

IF you want to support other ideas, consider beauty and wonder.
Art is creation, walking hand in hand with science and morality to define what we are as living beings. 
Many of those creations are beautiful expressions of our longings, our lives, our souls.
And wonder is pure glee, making you more alive than ever. 
Flying, whatever the means, would be without doubts truly wonderful.
Those are subtle nudges promoting a more vibrant world.
You'll find those two supporting the Bards and the Sky League.

About the Sky League, a few words of warning:
I heard some people, claiming the Sky League would like nothing more than to lead sky ships to other worlds, putting down the barriers that protected us from far planes.
They are eager to trade votes, even with Miller's doctrine they are rebuking.
Those highly ethical people don't speak for the whole Sky League. As a whole, the Sky League just want to be able to fly.


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## Ajar (Jul 1, 2013)

"To the Watchmakers, I say that I see little use for flight in a world without free will. The essence of the alliance between our faction of Sky Leaguers and Trekkers is liberty! How can an explorer function without free will? How can they respond to the wonders they find on their travels, if they cannot make decisions for themselves?"



gideonpepys said:


> Miller's Pyre is the most readily able to accommodate your needs, as our plan has a spare plane. Consider it done. If your vote goes for the Pyre, I would certainly vote for the Sky League - that was, in fact my original vote!




"Ah, but it isn't so simple. The careful replacement of Avilona and Jiese with a binary world is the key to your plan, and we will not countenance the loss of Jiese. More would be required than simply giving your spare plane the trait of Flight. Recalculation of your planar alignments would be necessary to determine if your binary alignment can be accomplished with Nem rather than with Jiese." 

"However, the Panarchists could potentially accomodate us more easily. An additional realignment would be needed, but it would not replace any of their existing realignments. To work with the Panarchists, we would ask that they add Avilona to their existing plan, replacing it with a full-fledged Plane of Air carrying the aspect of Flight. Some might argue that with teleportation freely available, flight would be unnecessary, but I must disagree. We believe that flight is necessary in order to reach distant worlds and planes, even with teleportation."

(@RangerWickett -- before we DMs get too far ahead of ourselves, is it even possible for factions to tweak their planar alignments in this way?)

(So far, I've only voted for the Sky League and Trekkers. I'm reserving my main faction vote for now. I might also make a Devil's Advocate post calling for the world to end...)


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## RangerWickett (Jul 1, 2013)

lol @ world ending

Sure, feel free to get into the details of the setting and suggest changes. By the way, I need to ask Russ to post about this on the front page again, since we have another 12 days to go and voting has slowed a bit.


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jul 4, 2013)

Really, people voting for Colossus or Watchmakers didn't find it absolutely cliché? After playing such an original adventure path it would be a waste to ruin it with the conspiracy pursuing two of the most typical  evil guy plan (Become super powerful or gain control of everything).


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## gideonpepys (Jul 4, 2013)

Hitomi Camacho said:


> Really, people voting for Colossus or Watchmakers didn't find it absolutely cliché? After playing such an original adventure path it would be a waste to ruin it with the conspiracy pursuing two of the most typical  evil guy plan (Become super powerful or gain control of everything).




These are my sentiments exactly. (Which is why I'm so surprised to find RangerWickett casting his lot in with the Colossus faction.)  A good-intentioned plot that goes _wrong_ is more nuanced and interesting imho.  But my vote is for Miller's Pyre.


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## RangerWickett (Jul 4, 2013)

Strategic voting, my friend.

Also, as the author, I'm struck by how difficult it will be to motivate adventuring parties if they agree with the bad guys.


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## gideonpepys (Jul 4, 2013)

RangerWickett said:


> Strategic voting, my friend.
> 
> Also, as the author, I'm struck by how difficult it will be to motivate adventuring parties if they agree with the bad guys.




Surely that's the challenge? 

 These guys wanted to screw with the universe so badly they lost sight of the fact that the ends did not justify the means.  Having messed up their grand scheme, they then move to persist with it, and maybe at that point a different faction takes over.  But 'rule the world' Bond Villainy is so 2012, don't you think?


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jul 4, 2013)

RangerWickett said:


> Strategic voting, my friend.
> 
> Also, as the author, I'm struck by how difficult it will be to motivate adventuring parties if they agree with the bad guys.




That's why Miller's Pyre is a bad choice, it's to Good and to close of the original desire of Miller which as we can see on the campaing guide has twisted with the passing of time.  Panarchists on the other hand have the adequate mix of surprise element and unexpected consequences.
Anyway what i would like to see it the Moral Mind in effect because that is at the core of the Obscurati Origin.


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## Ajar (Jul 5, 2013)

I see that Hitomi has cast one of his secondary votes to the Sky League. Accordingly, I have cast my primary vote for the Panarchists. So I voted for Panarchists + Sky League + Trekkers, with Avilona's replacement added to the Panarchists' existing plan in order to make flight possible. 

I think it makes a lot of sense, and in particular I think Nicodemus would be supportive of the Panarchist concept. While Nicodemus and the ghost council have little faith in common folk, Panarchism allows him to appear compassionate while actually setting up a meritocracy that could, ultimately, lead to Colossus-style rulership for those who rise to the top. A sort of steampunk corporatism. 

That said, none of the factions I voted for are currently leading, so I guess my advocacy thus far hasn't been super successful. Perhaps we need some sort of Panarchist-Pyre hybrid to forestall Colossus or Watchmaker. The planar realignments of Panarchist and Pyre are not incompatible, although I still wouldn't vote for a plan that would replace Jiese. Taking industry away from Lanjyr gives you every other fantasy world where they sit at the same tech level for thousands and thousands of years.


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## parhadokzal (Jul 6, 2013)

I had initially voted for Miller's, but thought to myself that my players (as I know them) would literrally want to rally the conspiracy. So I changed to Colossus, but I agree that my players would be disappointed that such a complex, shades of grey campaign would end with such a classical "dominate the world because I know better" scheme.
So, my main vote finally goes to Panarchists, which I think is both original and complex, while being something my players would, begrudgingly, impose out of rational thought. (i.e. We can't trust individuals with that kind of powers)


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## gideonpepys (Jul 6, 2013)

Hitomi Camacho said:


> That's why Miller's Pyre is a bad choice, it's to Good and to close of the original desire of Miller which as we can see on the campaing guide has twisted with the passing of time.




First of all, who's to say Miller is going to do what the conspiracy says?  I know that's what the campaign guide says, but he's not openly expressing that, is he? (How many people even know who he is?)  And if this is all about Miller as he is now (as opposed to when he developed his forward-thinking ideology), why is there even a vote?  My take on it is that Miller needs the support of the conspiracy he leads, but will fix things the way he (and I) want them fixed in the end.  



parhadokzal said:


> I had initially voted for Miller's, but thought to myself that my players (as I know them) would literrally want to rally the conspiracy. So I changed to Colossus, but I agree that my players would be disappointed that such a complex, shades of grey campaign would end with such a classical "dominate the world because I know better" scheme.
> So, my main vote finally goes to Panarchists, which I think is both original and complex, while being something my players would, begrudgingly, impose out of rational thought. (i.e. We can't trust individuals with that kind of powers)




I'm almost in agreement with you here, but we need to remember that there are wheels within wheels.  Who says the Ob leadership goes with what the conclave votes for?  Also, the Obscurati plan fails and, above all, _the ends do not justify the means_.  But if the players found themselves in the strange position of bringing the villains to justice and then, ultimately, enacting their 'villainous' plan themselves, wouldn't that be a fabulous end to a campaign?


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## Ajar (Jul 6, 2013)

The Pyre _is_ a villainous plan. Well-intentioned, but flawed. Take our world and remove all technological progress but increase empathy and sympathy. Great, you have a peaceful world where people agree easily, but then it stagnates. It _can't_ progress, because you've removed the mechanism by which progress occurs. In my view, that's actually a dystopia. It's not so far removed from the Watchmakers.


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## gideonpepys (Jul 6, 2013)

Ajar said:


> The Pyre _is_ a villainous plan. Well-intentioned...




Nice way to contradict yourself from the outset.  "Well-intentioned villainy"?  I think this demonstrates the absurdity of your counterargument quite nicely.



Ajar said:


> Take our world and remove all technological progress but increase empathy and sympathy. Great, you have a peaceful world where people agree easily, but then it stagnates. It _can't_ progress, because you've removed the mechanism by which progress occurs. In my view, that's actually a dystopia. It's not so far removed from the Watchmakers.




Miller's Pyre does not seek to 'remove all technological progress'.  That is a misrepresentation.  I might go on to argue that 'progress' is subjective, but given that we don't seek to stifle it, that argument would be redundant.  If by 'the mechanism by which progress occurs' you mean conflict and suffering, I can only assume that by 'progress' you mean 'enhanced means to inflict the same on one another'.

Finally, to describe a world in which people understand one another better as a 'dystopia' reveals the warped nature of your own Panarchistic viewpoint, for only someone truly twisted could view it that way.


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## Ajar (Jul 6, 2013)

"Well-intentioned villainy" isn't an oxymoron. No need to be a jerk about it; this is, after all, just a game. 

Miller's Pyre replaces the plane of Jiese. The Cunning trait of Jiese is what has enabled the technological progress in this setting, making it distinct from conventional fantasy settings that generally exist in a technological vacuum. Obviously it isn't _certain_ that technological progress would be completely halted, but it's likely enough that I wouldn't risk it -- however appealing the rest of the Pyre's changes might be.

Edit: If it wins the voting, though, that does give me a good hook that will pretty much ensure my players (three of whom are engineers, as am I) will oppose it.

Edit 2: On an unrelated note, Panarchism also has a very significant side benefit -- with everyone regenerating, all but the worst accidents and ailments will be a thing of the past.


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## gideonpepys (Jul 6, 2013)

Ajar said:


> "Well-intentioned villainy" isn't an oxymoron. No need to be a jerk about it; this is, after all, just a game.




Er... I know that.  I was engaging in a bit of fake banter in a fake debate about a fake conspiracy on a fake world.  Until you called me a jerk, I assumed you were too.


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## gideonpepys (Jul 6, 2013)

Ajar said:


> "Well-intentioned villainy" isn't an oxymoron.




Oh, and, yes it is.


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## Ajar (Jul 6, 2013)

gideonpepys said:


> Er... I know that.  I was engaging in a bit of fake banter in a fake debate about a fake conspiracy on a fake world.  Until you called me a jerk, I assumed you were too.




Oh, okay. Then I retract and apologize. When I'm not explicitly the writing as a character, I'm writing as myself and making my own actual arguments - which may differ from those I put in the mouths of characters.


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## Herobizkit (Jul 7, 2013)

I misinterpreted the poll and thus didn't choose a major faction.  But if I did, I would have went Arboretum/Sky League/Trekkers.  Control nature, fly around, and secure resources from other planes.

Why yes, I do love Stargate...

Also, more Bards.  Because there are never enough.


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## Ajar (Jul 7, 2013)

You can change your vote if you wish - click the red "unvote" at the top right of the poll.


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## DonTadow (Jul 7, 2013)

Voted Miller's Pyre. It had the most layered plot plan than the other plans. It's a very subtle, almost passive agressive, approach to the situation, which kinda falls in line with whats been going on right now.  No one is forced to do anything, but the pain of doing some things is quite potent.  I can see really good people backing this up, and I can see really evil people wanting to support the PCs. I love moral quandaries.


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## RangerWickett (Jul 8, 2013)

While I don't realistically expect everyone who has voted so far to check in and change their votes, I wonder if those who have been particularly outspoken for one faction or another would like to propose alliances or compromises?

Watchmakers and Colossus look like they might need to coordinate to have a chance of victory, and a compromise might involve letting those with the proper truename powers resist the "no free will" aspect of the Watchmaker plot.

That would force the other factions to seek a compromise. Miller's Pyre, currently in the lead, could pair with the Panarchists, though the two groups seem a bit ideologically opposed, with harsh words being thrown back and forth. And the Pyre cannot easily ally with the Arboretum without severely curtailing their plans, since both factions use the planes of air, earth, and fire for different purposes.

It's unclear how many votes the Pyre could pick up by offering to support some of the minor factions. Mor_t_al Mind has a lot of support (perhaps partially due to the typo in the poll changing its name), and it seems less compatible with the Watchmakers, but will they support the Pyre or the Panarchists? The Sky League certainly seems to favor Panarchists.

This thread is both exciting and vexing, because I'm writing Adventure Seven now and am having to work around not knowing how the vote will go. Plus, I'm pondering which of the posters here I want to ask to let me write them into the plot. Thanks for your involvement; it's been a great boon.

(Oh, and a reminder. We're still running a Kickstarter, and we're about ten pledges away from hitting probably our most important stretch goal at $11,000.)


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## RangerWickett (Jul 8, 2013)

[MENTION=85901]Ajar[/MENTION],  [MENTION=79141]gideonpepys[/MENTION],  [MENTION=6706195]Shilubi[/MENTION],  [MENTION=6673222]Hitomi Camacho[/MENTION],  [MENTION=12882]ltclnlbrain[/MENTION],  [MENTION=78958]Empirate[/MENTION], you've all put up one or more detailed posts in support of a faction. Care to discuss deal-making?


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## gideonpepys (Jul 8, 2013)

RangerWickett said:


> @_*Ajar*_ ,   @_*gideonpepys*_ ,   @_*Shilubi*_ ,   @_*Hitomi Camacho*_ ,   @_*ltclnlbrain*_ ,   @_*Empirate*_ , you've all put up one or more detailed posts in support of a faction. Care to discuss deal-making?




It's all so close to call, and I'm not entirely sure what deals are possible, given the technicalities. If it were possible for one plan to embrace the core concepts of another without losing too much of its own identity then I would happily engage with the panarchists, perhaps even colossus.


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## Shilubi (Jul 8, 2013)

To our esteemed Nicodemus,


I have been discussing, at your request, with my fellow Watchmakers possible alliances to reach a consensus.
I'm afraid we will fail you.

First, according to the planes we intend to meddle with, we are fully compatible only with...the Pyre.
But performing both plans at the same time, while it does suit the watchmakers, won't be popular amongst Miller followers. They have something against the length of time and the lack of free will.
Still, we will talk to them about this.
_(consider it done, dear followers of Miller reading those lines: a watchmaker/Miller's pyre plan is possible at the same time!)_

And i cannot consider any other merging, as the watchmaker's plan is so precise that the slightest deviation on the plane aspects might prove fatal.

Then, it's obviously too early for most of the Obscurati to consider such a drastic move as the thousand years plan, but we have time.
Speaking for myself, i will support factions whose agenda will allow a change of path to be made in the future, such as Arboretum and Colossus.
Millers' Pyre environment won't allow something like the secret Obscurati, and the Panachists will rigidify the world beyond any hope of change with their soul-binding contracts.


Yours sincerely,

(unreadable)


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## ltclnlbrain (Jul 8, 2013)

As the conversation begins to move toward talk of alliances, Leyander taps his mithral cane thoughtfully against the bottom of his chin. After much consideration, he speaks again.

"If the philosophy of the Pyre is compatible with any of the other major factions, it would most likely be the proponents of the Colossus. It is true that the Pyre's vision puts a lot of faith in the good nature of people, and there still may be some bad eggs out there who resist or rebel against our forcing them to be sympathetic to their fellow men. We may find it necessary, then, to have a small group of world leaders to maintain peace and order on the rare occasions when it may prove necessary. This could also help quell those dissenters who fear the increased threat of extraplanar incursion our re-configured planes might invite. For our visions to coincide, we'd have to keep the Pyre's plane of Space with the Empathy trait. This would mean the Colossus' desire for easy teleportation to problem spots would be impossible. However, we already count among our number several individuals who can make use of teleportation magic, and if they are among the few chosen to be granted cyclical power, then this becomes less of an issue."

Leyander smiles and peers at his fellow Ob members. "What say you, Colossus supporters. Could this be the beginning of a beautiful friendship?"


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## Ajar (Jul 8, 2013)

Constance, who has been writing rapidly in a tidy hand ever since sitting down, finally sets down her stylus and rises again. 

"As I look and listen to you, fellow planners and dreamers, I see many common traits: conviction, passion, logic, cunning, understanding. These traits, while common to us all, are emphasized most by the plans of the Pyre, the Arboretum, and the Panarchists. Unfortunately, overtures for alliance between these factions have thus far been unsuccessful, as each side does not wish to become secondary to the other. 

"But as the debate continued, I saw a possible path foward to a truly different future: a future where pointless deaths are a thing of the past, a future where debates such as this one could flourish, a future that would encourage the progress of industry and exploration. 

"To reach this future, I propose the following: instead of replacing or realigning two or three planes, let us incorporate the best ideas of the various factions into a single GRAND DESIGN! Each of us would need to sacrifice elements of our desires, but the combined whole would be greater than the sum of its parts. 

"*Jiese*, the plane of Fire with its Cunning trait, would remain untouched. This is a sacrifice for the Pyre, but is essential to preserving and continuing the tremendous progress Lanjyr's nations have made in recent years. However, the Pyre's Expression trait can be achieved by other means. I will return to this shortly.

"*Avilona*, the plane of Air with its Calm trait, would be replaced as per the Pyre's plan, with one half of a new binary plane. It would carry the Speech trait, fostering debates such as this one. This is essential to a vibrant society and complementary to the goal of progress.

"*Av*, the plane of Life, would be replaced as with the Arboretum's plan. Its traits of Reflection and Dream would be replaced with Craft and Artifice. But this can be done without severing the Dreaming and the Bleak Gate! Craft and Artifice would foster progress, both of industry and of agriculture. The Arboretum's goal of plentiful harvests for all is the foundation of a vibrant society. 

"*Mavisha*, the plane of Water, would be replaced. This was not part of the plans of any faction, but my calculations suggest that a new plane of Water could be aligned to support the Panarchists' desired Healing trait. It would function slightly differently: it would confer lesser resistance to physical injury than the Panarchists seek, but would empower the blood of all living beings with resistance against poison and disease. Imagine the lives that would be saved! Mavisha's current Mystery trait has no beneficial properties, while the Healing trait will save countless lives. When combined with the primacy of logic and reason in the new society, it will substantially improve the lot of the individual. 

"*Urim*, the plane of Earth, would be replaced according to the current plans of Miller's Pyre, with a new plane carrying a Logic trait. All factions should support the goal of emphasizing logic and reason in the new world! 

"*Apet*, the Distant Plane, would be replaced according to the current plans of both the Panarchists and the Colossus: with a new plane carrying the trait of Empowerment. In the new alignment, this plane would remain distant and be weaker than the Colossus and Panarchists would prefer, but still far superior to what the fey are able to do in our world today -- and available to everyone. The importance of individuals and their need for governments will be greatly reduced. It is possible that some will still choose to create governing bodies, but these choices will stem from logic and reason, not from bloodlines or wealth. The Pyre must sacrifice its Empathy trait, but the primacy of reasoned discourse in this new society will still lead to a more empathetic and caring world, even without the mild empathic powers this trait would have conferred. 

"Now we come to *Reida*, the plane of Time. I initially balked at making changes to this plane. Tampering with it does carry some risk, which is why I cannot support the Watchmakers' radical changes. But a subtler change is possible! The new plane of Time will be a binary pair with the new plane of Air, and will carry an Expression trait. Shifting from the Pyre's plan to have Expression associated with the plane of Fire allows us to incorporate the goals of the Long Now: with Expression governed by Time, people will inherently frame their positions with heed to the future. This is only right and proper in a knowledge-driven, rational society. 

"As with the Pyre's plan, this binary pairing will allow a *demiplane* to be added. A small body in orbit around the Distant Plane will be given the trait of Flight. As the new Distant Plane will carry a trait of Empowerment, the Flight trait of the new plane will be strong enough to allow for the crafting of zeppelins and the exploration of worlds beyond our own. 

"Last among the existing planes is *Nem*, the plane of Death. This plane must be replaced if we are to explore the worlds beyond what we now know. The calculations are complex, but it is possible to realign Av into the current position of Nem! Death being a reflection of life, Av would become the plane of Death, preserving its traits of Reflection and Dream. The fey would not be cut off from the Dreaming and the Bleak Gate, which would have risked angering the Fey Titans and bringing calamitous war upon us. 

"We must not forget the strong support for the Mortal Mind. While this plan does not directly eliminate the possibility of irrational superstition, it does create a society where logic and reason are the prime movers. The beliefs that flourish will be those that can be supported by persuasive logical arguments. This, I hope, will be enough to satisfy followers of that faction, some of whom are fellow scientists. 

"*To summarize:* This comprehensive realignment plan partially fullfils the desires of the Pyre, Arboretum, Panarchists, Sky League, Trekkers, Long Now, and Mortal Mind. The newly replaced and aligned planes will carry traits of Cunning, Speech, Craft/Artifice, Healing, Logic, Empowerment, Expression, Reflection/Dream, and Flight. I believe this compromise position is the best way for members of these factions to accomplish their goals, since this debate has made clear that no one group can proceed alone! 

"Thank you, and I hope you will earnestly consider the framework I have presented."

*Out of Character Summary:*
I'm proposing that we replace seven of the eight current planes, by combining the proposals of the Pyre, Arboretum, and Panarchists. The planes and traits are:

Fire - Cunning (no change)
Air - Speech (Pyre)
Life - Craft, Artifice (Arboretum)
Water - Healing (Panarchists)
Earth - Logic (Pyre)
Space - Empowerment (Panarchists)
Time - Expression (Pyre)
Death - Reflection, Dream (previously Life)
New demiplane orbiting Space - Flight (Empowered)

*Who gets what, and who gives up what?*
Of the main factions, Miller's Pyre, Panarchists, and Arboretum all get some of what they want. Of the lesser factions, the Long Now, Trekkers, and Sky League get what they want. The Mortal Mind gets part of what they want, since logic and reason will be paramount in the new society, leaving less room for superstition and religion. In a bit more detail:

- Arboretum gets their Craft/Artifice plane, but we don't sever the Dreaming/Bleak Gate, so Macbannin won't be thrilled. 

- Pyre gets 3/4 of their desired traits: Speech, Logic, Expression. They give up Empathy.

- Panarchists get 2/3 of their desired traits: Healing, Empowerment. They give up Possession. Healing goes through blood rather than straight up regeneration, so it isn't quite as powerful, but disease and poison are diminished or maybe even go away. 

- Long Now gets Expression in the plane of Time, so arguments will tend toward the long view. 

- Mortal Mind gets a society in which logic and reason are paramount. They give up the explicit elimination of religion, but people will inherently favour logical arguments over appeals to emotion, superstition, or faith. Religion may persist, but its importance will diminish considerably. 

- Trekkers get to explore other planes. The blocks on this go away. 

- Sky League gets ZEPPELINS! No way could I leave that out. 

*What Will Society Look Like?*
Physically, people will be stronger, healthier, resistant to disease/poison, and able to teleport significant distances (but not across miles as Colossus would like). Average lifespans will be significantly longer. Individuals will be far more powerful and far less reliant on government. Any government that existed would therefore truly have to be by the consent of the governed, rather than by hereditary fiat. 

Socially, people will be more logical, and will take the long view when framing their arguments. People will also be more willing to listen to the arguments of others -- speech and debate will carry more importance. 

People will be far more able to engage in these sorts of intellectual and philosophical discussions because taming nature will greatly reduce the scarcity of the goods needed for people to live -- notably food. Debate will replace war, since disagreements will largely be ideological rather than territorial disputes over fertile lands, because any land that is tended will be fertile. 

People will also be more mobile, and not just because they can teleport -- air travel and planar travel will be possible. 

When combined, all of these effects suggest multiple vibrant societies, some governed, some ungoverned, where reasoned debate is the paramount mode of persuasion and decision-making. Coercion will be far more difficult and far less likely. People will be able to readily travel between societies, facilitating the spread of ideas. 

Technological progress will continue apace, and the new, stronger, healthier workers will have a much better lot in life than they did before. 

Such a robust, multicultural, technologically advanced society will be able to band together when needed -- when logic dictates -- such as in the case of an extraplanar invasion. It would also be able to develop mechanisms for controlling the stronger storms that will arise, and compensating for any changes in sea level that may occur. 

*What of the Obscurati?* 
Perhaps we will no longer be needed. But more likely, the new society will be a true meritocracy, where knowledge, reason, and skill are recognized and rewarded. This means that we in the Obscurati will naturally rise to positions of respect and influence.

*Since this proposal is a mix of Miller's Pyre, Arboretum, and Panarchists, I suggest we call it the MAP for short.*


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## gideonpepys (Jul 8, 2013)

Glaz du Sang Magi responds that he is very impressed by Constance's grand vision.  He recommends a period of reflection and sufficient time for a 'practice plane' to be readied.  In the absence of Kasvarina Varal, he would not like to vote away the key element of empathy from the Pyre faction without proof that this alignment of planes would have the desired effect - particularly since Miller's Pyre has taken a recent lead.  But the overall plan is well thought out and deserves the applause of the conclave.


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jul 8, 2013)

Ajar, I have read your idea, sound interesting but, from the DM perspective I don't see the flaw and the evil part of the plan.  Before we continue with this discussion please everyone take a moment to read page 4 of the campaing guide. I feel that everyone can agree that the Moral Mind is CORE for the Obscurati. 

Also, I don't know you but everything there screams http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism to me


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jul 8, 2013)

gideonpepys said:


> It's all so close to call, and I'm not entirely sure what deals are possible, given the technicalities. If it were possible for one plan to embrace the core concepts of another without losing too much of its own identity then I would happily engage with the panarchists, perhaps even colossus.




Gideon I really appreciate you insight and the contribution to the campaign with the log of your adventures. 

I now you are a supporter of the Miller Pyre and as a DM I would like to know what evil outcomings of that plan can you imagine. 

 I have clear ideas of the potential for absolute evil in the Panarchist cause disguised as really good intentions but I can't see them on the Pyre.


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## gideonpepys (Jul 9, 2013)

Hitomi Camacho said:


> Gideon I really appreciate you insight and the contribution to the campaign with the log of your adventures.




Thanks.  I enjoy being able to use the forum as a sounding board for campaign ideas, so its useful for me too, and doesn't take too much extra effort, as I write the journal for my players anyway (and just tweak it for the boards).  



Hitomi Camacho said:


> I now you are a supporter of the Miller Pyre and as a DM I would like to know what evil outcomings of that plan can you imagine. I have clear ideas of the potential for absolute evil in the Panarchist cause disguised as really good intentions but I can't see them on the Pyre.




Neither can I.  I didn't really consider that to be the role of this debate, or my part in it.  

But I do think that the 'evil outcome' could derive from something above or beyond this debate:  perhaps there are inevitable casualties as a result of the huge changes wrought by the Ob?  Could it be that one use for the huge lighthouse-sized Wayfarer Lanterns is to protect key areas from the chaos that will rip through the rest of the world?  (This may in fact be something RangerWickett already has in mind.)

So this new utopia will be built on deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions, and the Ob think that it is worth it (or in some cases are unaware that this will be the outcome).

Add to that the fact that the plan fails and you have a conspiracy that gambled everything - and I mean, literally, _everything_ - to get what they thought was best, and having taken that gamble and lost, then go on to insist that they be allowed to continue, at even greater risk, to set things 'right'.  (Again, in their own subjective view.)  I like the idea that the players might even agree with the proposed outcome, but have to fight to wrest the dice from the Ob, who have already staked too much on their next throw.

Add to this the idea that the central leaders of the conspiracy might be having everyone on and the plot thickens even further.  Perhaps Nicodemus has a hidden, secret agenda which will come into play regardless of what the conclave decides.

Thing is, I'm not the writer of the AP, so I don't know how any of this will turn out.  What I do know is that I would find a benign conspiracy using malign means to achieve their ends more compelling than one with evil ends to begin with.  And, as you point out in your post, I can see what's wrong with Panarchism from the outset - I can see how people might object to it.  

To be honest, I can see how folks might object to the idea altering reality in any way.  If you take that as the basis for your objection - the fact that the Ob have no right to do what they are doing - none of the twists I have mentioned need to be involved.

One more point - I know that Nicodemus now holds a 'twisted' view of the ideals he once did.  Again, I never saw this debate as an attempt to embody those views.  It can't be can it, unless we're pretending that every fictional character who is taking part has also read the Campaign Guide!  So we have to assume that Nicodemus has something up his sleeve, don't we?  Or maybe his 'twisted' view is simply that realty itself needs changing - no matter what the cost - because humanity can't be altered, improved, or persuaded, by any other means.


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## Shilubi (Jul 9, 2013)

It's very interesting, knowing that the thread title is "you're a vilain", that the most popular choices are the benign/good ones: Miller Pyre, the Long now and the Moral Mind.

And so?

I rather like it 

They act like vilains, but their goals are noble...that's something my players will have to ponder about.
I just have to make sure that as a DM i will have to hit them hard and personally during the campaign, so that it becomes more personal...
Does the end justify the means?
Will it end like in Watchmen?

They, or I, might even propose to join the Ob. (in which case something will go wrong, blood spilled again, terrible misunderstanding etc...)


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## gideonpepys (Jul 9, 2013)

Shilubi said:


> It's very interesting, knowing that the thread title is "you're a vilain", that the most popular choices are the benign/good ones: Miller Pyre, the Long now and the Moral Mind.
> 
> And so?
> 
> ...




My sentiments exactly.

I think the title of the thread is key here.  First of all because I think that very few people think of themselves as villains (even the Nazis thought they were doing the right thing) and because a lot of us contributing to this debate have been ignoring that injunction!

Some members of the conspiracy are clearly villainous - Leone Quital, for example.  He strikes me as the sort of person who would know that his 'tastes' are egocentric and cruel.  But he's also not high up enough to take part in the discussion.  Only those with less overtly selfish aims seem to qualify.

On the whole notion of just how deeply one's own motives can be hidden from oneself, it would be a nice touch if Roland Stanfield is horrified when he reincarnates as a rakshasa!  (Perhaps blaming the PCs for forcing his hand!)


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## Ajar (Jul 9, 2013)

FYI, Leone Quital is the leader of the Watchmaker faction. 

But yeah, this is basically why I called the Ob "well-intentioned villainy." Convinced that the ends justify the means, they undertake horrific acts like the witchoil experiments, all in the service of what they see as a better world. It's fair to say that the most overtly villainous Ob members (Macbannin and Quital) are driving the most overtly villainous agendas (sever the Dreaming/Bleak Gate and take free will away), but even those are still ultimately aimed at making the world a better place. It's kind of a nice echo of Ethelyn's plans for the Coaltongue in Adventure #1. 

The Ob's villainy really stems from having the arrogance to think that they (and only they) have the right to and are capable of determining the fate of the entire world.


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## gideonpepys (Jul 9, 2013)

Ajar said:


> FYI, Leone Quital is the leader of the Watchmaker faction.




Oh yeah. Duh. I need to play him more Lawful Neutral from now on, I think, with flashes of insane rage.  But up to now I'd portrayed him as a slightly cliched supervillain. Puts a whole new slant on his character (which is probably why my brain chose to ignore this new fact).


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jul 9, 2013)

A question, what's the last day to cast the votes?


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## Ajar (Jul 9, 2013)

I believe it's the end of the Kickstarter, which is in 5 days.


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm going to throw a question to the supporters of the Colossus, why choose the direct path when you can take a more subtle one, like you know soul binding people... ?


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## Isklexi (Jul 9, 2013)

The colossus and panarchist options seem kind of similar. I agree that the "good" goals are the best ones. I like the conspiracy to be "well intentioned extremists". It makes the villains death more poignant when his dying words are, "everything I've done has been for Lanjyr", and it be completely true.


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jul 9, 2013)

> Originally Posted by *Hitomi Camacho*
> 
> 
> I now you are a supporter of the Miller Pyre  and as a DM I would like to know what evil outcomings of that plan can  you imagine. I have clear ideas of the potential for absolute evil in  the Panarchist cause disguised as really good intentions but I can't see  them on the Pyre.
> ...




That's the main difference between our points of view. In your case is the typical case "would the end justify the means?" while I support to the idea of "Utopia gone really, really wrong" without having to kill half a country to achieve it. 



> One more point - I know that Nicodemus now holds a 'twisted' view of the  ideals he once did.  Again, I never saw this debate as an attempt to  embody those views.  It can't be can it, unless we're pretending that  every fictional character who is taking part has also read the Campaign  Guide!  So we have to assume that Nicodemus has something up his sleeve,  don't we?  Or maybe his 'twisted' view is simply that realty itself  needs changing - no matter what the cost - because humanity can't be  altered, improved, or persuaded, by any other means.




You are right when you say that I went to far assuming everyone in fiction read the Campaing Guide but we can be sure that the founders of the Ob "read" it and have chosen people who shares their goals. Reason over faith, Science over superstition, self-enlightenment, Knowledge over races or nations. (At this point if Moral Mind wins is almost ok for me)
About Nicodemus holding something, well we can't be sure but the adventure is called Schism after all, we just don't now if it's going to be him or another faction inside the one who breaks the organization.


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## Siberys (Jul 10, 2013)

Looks like, if we get one of each of the main, side, and secret options, we'll end up with Miller's Pyre/Moral Mind/Materialists. I could dig that.



Isklexi said:


> The colossus and panarchist options seem kind of similar. I agree that the "good" goals are the best ones. I like the conspiracy to be "well intentioned extremists". It makes the villains death more poignant when his dying words are, "everything I've done has been for Lanjyr", and it be completely true.




They are in means, but not ends. Panarchist is basically "Colossus, but for EVERYONE!" Subtle change, very very large ramifications.


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jul 10, 2013)

Siberys said:


> Looks like, if we get one of each of the main, side, and secret options, we'll end up with Miller's Pyre/Moral Mind/Materialists. I could dig that.
> 
> 
> 
> They are in means, but not ends. Panarchist is basically "Colossus, but for EVERYONE!" Subtle change, very very large ramifications.




I don't see it that way, the powers with the Panarchist wouldn't be so big. But its possession aspect is open for villany. Instead of becoming super powerful lets give power to everyone and the use or knowledge to bind the souls of those that defy us to our will.


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## Siberys (Jul 10, 2013)

Not so big, yeah. And I could see a slumlord type taking advantage of nebulously-worded pacts to collect soul energy.

The big difference between Colossus and Panarchist is how honest they are about giving themselves a bunch of power. Colossus is all "Of /course/ we'd be the most powerful!", where Panarchist would say "/Technically/, everyone will be able to be just as powerful. Technically."


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## gideonpepys (Jul 10, 2013)

Siberys said:


> Looks like, if we get one of each of the main, side, and secret options, we'll end up with Miller's Pyre/Moral Mind/Materialists. I could dig that.




In that case, care to join us in the Pyre? It's nice and toasty!


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## Ajar (Jul 10, 2013)

People seem to be intrigued by the MAP. Perhaps it could be incorporated into the secret poll?  Pyre + Panarchists is still not a straight-up majority, but if MAP is a separate option, the Pyre, Panarchist, and Arboretum members who can accept the MAP's tradeoffs can vote for it directly. I think it might actually be able to get above 50% support in that scenario.


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## Hitomi Camacho (Jul 10, 2013)

Maybe we can make a cut, top 3 and give 2 or 3 more days to chose again with only those options.


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## RangerWickett (Jul 10, 2013)

Well, I wasn't quite planning to declare a 'winner,' unless there was overwhelming support for one group. Rather, I'm using the poll to craft the environment in Adventure Seven which, as someone pointed out above, is called _Schism_. Also, it'll be fun to point GMs at this thread when they run the adventure.


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## gideonpepys (Jul 11, 2013)

RangerWickett said:


> Well, I wasn't quite planning to declare a 'winner,' unless there was overwhelming support for one group. Rather, I'm using the poll to craft the environment in Adventure Seven which, as someone pointed out above, is called _Schism_. Also, it'll be fun to point GMs at this thread when they run the adventure.




This is what I was hoping you would say.


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## sabrinathecat (Jul 11, 2013)

I want people to THINK more. Some of it is basic consideration of others, but there are so many incredibly stupid aspects and petty annoyances that should be eliminated utterly.
I also would like to make people take responsibility for their actions, regardless of social or political ramifications.

All street addresses should be clearly visible and displayed so that someone can see them while driving on the opposite side of the street, at night.
No street should change names more than 3 times in a 2 mile stretch.
If you piss off your employees, your business should fail.
If you are responsible for your business failing, you should not be put in a position to do such a thing again, nor should your business be bailed out by the government until you are no longer employed there.
Instil true separation of Church and State (no special dispensations or tax exemptions for religious reasons, no mention of deities on currency, and no invocation of them in loyalty indoctrinations within educational establishments)
The Tax code (and all laws for that matter) should be clear, concise, and written so that someone with an 8th grade education can read and comprehend it. No exemptions. No special privileges.
Oh, and Hollywood needs to step up its collective game, and produce more quality over quantity.
Oh, and "reality" TV banned.


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## gideonpepys (Jul 11, 2013)

sabrinathecat said:


> I want people to THINK more. Some of it is basic consideration of others, but there are so many incredibly stupid aspects and petty annoyances that should be eliminated utterly.
> I also would like to make people take responsibility for their actions, regardless of social or political ramifications.
> 
> All street addresses should be clearly visible and displayed so that someone can see them while driving on the opposite side of the street, at night.
> ...




What about the flying sky ships?


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## sabrinathecat (Jul 11, 2013)

gideonpepys said:


> What about the flying sky ships?



Only for people who pass a pilot's license. If you can't do that, no Moller Skycar for you--just the new RC toys.


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## Zipster (Sep 3, 2018)

Okay - my Zeitgeist group is just about at the Convocation. I enjoyed reading through this long-dead thread, as directed to in the Zeitgeist adventure path. For my group, I've went through the thread and taken some of the various highlights and arguments from various past posters, and put them into one very large debate/discussion to be had during the adventure. Some character names of previous posters had to be edited/changed/removed because they weren't on the Obscurati officer list, which I didn't even realize was a thing till I had already gotten 8 pages of stuff, so I had to remove the amazing gnome name Gibson Ganglesprocket from the discourse.  I have taken previous things in this thread, compiled, edited, and added to them in a way to give voice to many factions. Because of the length - literally over 10 pages - my plan is to have my table do a table reading, each player reading one - or more than one - character in the debate so that the players get more involved in the discussion since, ultimately, they will likely find themselves in the same place in Adventure 13. If there are any other DM's doing Zeitgeist, I encourage them to use this as well if it will be of use:

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The sound of a cane rapping on the stone floor of the assembly hall draws your attention to a tall and slender man. His dark hair is pulled back into a long ponytail, revealing the lengths of the pointed ears which mark him as an Eladrin. He wears a finely-cut red suit with a white cravat. He leans forward on his mithral cane and peers through his spectacles at the assembled conspirators.

"My brethren," he begins, "my name is Hanse Randall. I needn't remind you that our people are a long-lived race, and many of us alive today still remember the pain and death caused by the Great Malice centuries ago. An entire race of people brought to its knees by a single horrific act spurred by xenophobia and intolerance. With the power we will soon command, one of our goals should be to make sure nothing so devastating ever happens to anybody in this world again. And the key to achieving this is to eliminate the baseless fears and misunderstandings of the myriad peoples of Lanjyr."

Hanse taps his cane again as he continues. "You have heard the members of other factions speak of their own plans to change the world: industrialize nature's bounty, grant godlike powers either to the elite or to the laymen, even eliminate free will entirely. We know not what horrific consequences such drastic changes to our cosmology might render. Better, then, to take a gentle hand with our ministrations. I say to you, we need not shake the very core of the multiverse to find peace in our time. All we need is to allow everybody to clearly see the viewpoints of one another, to truly understand where a person is coming from. Elf, human, beggar, king, Danoran, Risuri--in the end, none of us are so different from one another.

"Empathy. Expression. Logic. With just a few subtle changes, we can eliminate the need for fighting, the desire for war. Word and thoughts will win the day, not guns and magic. And within our plans, there is still room for expansion--to bolster our defenses against potential extraplanar incursions, or to allow extra enjoyment of our newfound propensity for expression. Perhaps even the opportunity to bring easy flight to the landbound peoples of the world. When the time comes to vote, I urge you to consider the tenets espoused by Miller's Pyre."

Hanse grins and inclines his head. "I would be happy to debate any of you further on the merits of our vision for the future."

"Miller's doctrine...really?" groans Trevio Addaz as the Minotaur stands to his hoofs. He closes his ironclad pocket watch with a loud clasp drawing the attention of the attendees. 

"What's in man's mind? Emotion and logic don't make up for morals. You could end up with very bad things, emotionally shared and enforced by logic. There's no safeguard against evil in your plan. Nothing prevents accidents, or injuries - you merely feel the pain of another's; trauma becomes shared. What else would become shared? Addictions? Depression? Anger? But now I - not an addict - can empathize with the addict, and feel his pleasure from his addiction and then to share it? With no drive beyond expressing, and sharing in a peaceful and logical manner, we may fall into all manners of relativism, and there is no guarantee that shared emotion will fix anything. As it is, people already agree to disagree in peace."

"Do you see?" Trevio squints towards Hanse, "It is a facade for control. Your plan is a tool to easily convert people, but you don't say who will convert them, or what.  And worse, you open the world to extraplanar influence and invasion - dare I say, devils."

"The true, courageous, selfless way is the Watchmakers. We will make sure we go the right path.
We will make sure everyone go the right path. We might not have another chance to put things right."


Hanse raises at eyebrow at the Watchman's argument. "Ah, yes? 'We' will make sure everybody follows the right path. Who are these few 'we' who get to decide which path is the right path? You desire to enforce morality by eliminating free will, but whose morality, I ask? Is it the morality of the Clergy? The Danorans? The Risuri? What makes one person's or people's 'goodness' better than another's? Instead of seeking to understand the differences that make us unique, you wish to make us all conform to a stale, mechanical sameness. The world would be populated with naught but mindless automatons!"

The elf raps his cane on the floor. "Our ability to think for ourselves and to reason is the thing that separates man from machine. The thing that makes us unique and vibrant. You would rob us of our very souls!" Hanse lets the silence hang in the air for a few moments, then continues. "As for your other point, you fear the chance for extraplanar assault. If we listened to you and abandoned our free will, what then would happen should devils, to use your example, chose to invade our plane of existence? Does your thousand-year plan have contingencies for such an occurrence, or would the whole system fall to pieces without the ability to adapt and react to outside threats?

"Under Miller's Pyre, with increased understanding and communication, the varied peoples of Lanjyr could easily come together and unite against a common external threat. Think of what powers we could muster with all of us working side by side. And it might not even have to come to that, if we use the extra planar space to bolster the new multiverse with the protections those of the Aegis desire."


Trevio pauses, and strikes a match on his horn lighting a pipe, with a long drag he blows the smoke out of his flaring nostrils. "We is us, the Obscurati. Who else? We will define what is good. Miller's Pyre will ease unity. As I said, it's a tool to convert people. But what ideology will unite them? You don't address this. You just hope it will lead to good endings...

"And your example, dear Hanse, is faulty:
The interplanar barriers won't be weakened, so an assault is ruled out. Not something we have to take into consideration. But for example sake, let's say it happens...devils assaulting our world once again.
A world where everyone has an ideology that opposes them; a world with a people they won't be able to seduce or sway with logic or promises of power and riches through pacts and bargains.  Never would they get a foothold, never would find an ally or one who empathizes with them. 
It's in our plan that the devils will have to fight the whole world.
And for what? A place where, if they stay too long, they too may have their ethos changed for goodness? 

"Our burden and duty is to make sure we will succeed in creating a better place. The Watchmaker's plans are drastic, - as is our entire movement - but that's what is needed to succeed. A thousand years where everyone will have to be good. No choice. Soulless.
Our tabula rasa.
Then free will."


"'Then free will', Hanse says. "Just like that. One thousand years of dictatorship, then... this." He gestures expansively to indicate the whole world. "I did not forgo my lifelong vow of pacifism for a such a bizarre admixture of arrogance and apathy. I have shed blood for the greater good, and would curse myself for all eternity if this is what I turned out to be fighting for. No one man, or group of men, should consider themselves wise enough to set in stone what is 'good' for all the world. Since the earliest days of history, men have thought they were 'right', and sought to impose their version of goodness on others. That is how Elfaivar came to be destroyed, and the Great Malice swept through northern Lanjyr; that is how the clergy comes to hold sway and indoctrinate millions of ignorant people. This, my friends, is what we have been fighting against! And worse still, having doomed the forgotten future to this slavery, it is then proposed that we relinquish our grip and pray that a world that has been forced to be 'good' will choose to continue to do so.

He clenches his fist, his pale cheeks plush with red, "No, Miller's Pyre does not seek to impose an ideology on the world. That is its very strength, not a weakness. Our 'hope' is much stronger than the hopes of the Watchmakers, because it is founded on empathy which will not fade in a thousand years. You starve your brother and you feel his pangs; you slay your neighbor and you sense his fear, and grieve along with his loved ones. Perhaps there will be those who enjoy such sensations, or even grow inured to them. But the brotherhood of man will be ever more strongly united against such evil, psychopathic individuals.

"And remember: we have a spare plane. If interplanar security is your principal concern, vote for Miller's Pyre and Aegis."


The elderly ice mage Glaz du Sang Magie, one of the rare Danoran mages, sets a frosted glass of chardonnay onto the table as he rises, leaning on his staff, "You seem to be afraid, boy - afraid of the unknown, of what may lie beyond the stars. You forget how we have used conflict to our advantage, how conflict has stirred progress, and progress innovation. You say that men shall be prepared to fight against such evil - by what means shall this fighting happen in each of your so-called utopias? 

"A world filled of discussions and those without any form of will shall result in stagnation. We have gotten here because of one thing, my friends: war. Conflict is a necessity of progress - and the proposals so far are for the weak. I represent the Weapon-Mongers. Our proposal is simple: with technology, we can achieve anything, we can build a utopia tried and tested through fire and war, where invention brings even greater power. We are ready to ally with any faction that sees the need for conflict in the next world."

A high pitched screeching pierces the hall as a chair is drug against the floor; for a moment it is as if the chair is moving itself until a heavy-set gnome struggles to pull himself up the chair and stands to his feet upon it. Already slightly winded from the ordeal, he leans forward bracing himself with his hands against the table and then takes a step onto the table, using it as his own stage, 

"I'm afraid that you are all missing the point! The Watchmakers wish to remove our will, the weapon-mongers just want to shoot things - and, hey - I don't blame them, it's fun! - but in our view, their weapons aren't even necessary! - and the Pyre wants to have our will more easily swayed by whatever prevalent influence or emotion. Indeed, Hanse is right - from the earliest days men have thought themselves right, and to this day they still do. From the earliest days, ideologies have risen and taken ascendance and dominance over people just as Hanse has said: The Clergy sways millions to this day. Our sacrifices have not been to keep the status quo; we are all enlightened thinkers who have sought freedom from these prisons of the mind."

The heavy set gnome paces back and forth, stroking his finely trained black mustache, "My name is Tittling Grainet, and I represent freedom. Freedom from tyranny, freedom from oppression, freedom from religion, freedom from government. The only offer on the table that guarantees freedom for everyone is The Panarchists."

He accidentally kicks over a wine glass belonging to a Tiefling, "Freedom. We have all been bound and rebelled in some way; perhaps against an ideology like the Clergy; perhaps our own physical limitations, perhaps bound by a lack of income, or fear of what may befall us;  all of us have had our freedoms restricted in some way beyond our control, which is firmly based within some manner of inequality or position of power to enforce the rule or will or thought of another. And there are proposals here that would keep us all bound?"

He stamps his foot on the table, toppling another wine glass, "I say no! No! No! No! The Panarchists are the only ones who offer the level of freedom and equality we all desire. We will be free to disagree with each other, free to go where we want, free to be who we want, see what we want - teleport where we want in a heartbeat. With kings and beggars equal in power, governments will be moot, unnecessary, redundant! With each of us enhanced and empowered, we will be able to experience the world like never before, and find peace, harmony and freedom!"

Trevio blows a heavy agitated puff of smoke from his nostrils, "Ah yes, the Panarchist - a world in which a promise, or contract or any sort of binding agreement is made on one's soul? And this from Han Jierre - a tiefling?" An awkward silence fills the hall.

"And what is so wrong with that?" A purple skinned Tiefling stands, adjusting his tie and straightening his jacket, "Mind you, the Jierre family - Tieflings - have help fund, organize, inspire and build the Obscurati. The Jierres and the Cherages have provided a backbone for our very operation." He shakes his head in disappointment, "But perhaps you've forgotten that monsieur minotaur."

"Ladies, gentlemen - Gardienne du Cherage, the head of College Cell; Grainet has lofty visions, and dreams of freedom - something we can all agree on. His ideals are identical with the fabric of our cause. And while your work in Alais Primos has no doubt gone well, you … well, those of us with more responsibility have all recruited our members with extreme prejudice, because we cannot allow just anyone in - we cannot allow just anyone to have say, and power over our brave new world. As Nicodemus said, it shall be our hand that ordains the stars. 

"We have paid our dues - we have made sacrifices, we have learned lessons, we have been entrusted with our power and in our role for a reason; if power were meant for everyone as my rotund friend insists, then this convocation would be open to all - open to those who have not earned it, open to those who have never experienced it, never learned how to responsibly use it, open to the Clergy." He spits in disdain.

"No. We have been called here because it is our right; Trevio is right but misguided: we do not need to become soulless automatons in order to achieve a better world; we merely need a better government. A single government. Us. Colossus Cell keeps us in charge, in charge of the world which we have ordained. Our group would have no place in world such as Miller's Pyre, The Watchmen, or the Panarchists; we'd be redundant. No, in order to keep what we have started, Colossus is the only way to ensure both freedom and civility. 

"Colossus offers a balance of power, checks and balances prevent tyranny. We deem ourselves worthy to change the world - to order the stars, but some here think we should not rule it? If not us, then who? Gangs of super-powered individuals who will inevitably congregate back into governments to achieve more power? A group of men in a library expressing their concerns through debate? Or us. 

"Under Colossus, we will be using our judgment to continue the work we have done, and ensure the world is a better place. We will enhance ourselves, preserving ourselves as the keepers of the world; we'd be able to stymie any extraplanar threat that arises, quash any rebellion in an instant because none could feasibly rise to challenge us. Through our wisdom, our justice, and our rule the world would find peace and prosperity; it would be wholly better; it is our right."

Hanse adjusts his spectacles and turns to address the Panarchists. "I would like to remind you all of a simple maxim. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What, then, follows when everybody possesses absolute power? You claim you wish to infuse the individual with defensive abilities, but what you will get is bands of super-powered men and women doing whatever they want with no checks to their powers. Instead of preserving civilization, it will lead to its collapse!"

"The Colossus agenda shares the same flaws as the Watchmakers' plan. Who are we, the few who would control great power or who would lock in the future of our world to an inflexible timeline? What gives us the right to decide a blanket collection of mores and morals and apply it to every single person, despite each one's circumstances? Simply because we have the ability to do so, we should do it?" The Eladrin shakes his head. "I have faith in the better nature of humanity. I believe each man should have the right to choose his own destiny, and the power to understand and recognize the right of his brothers and sisters to do so as well, even if their chosen paths be different than his. For there is no one true path that anybody can say is absolutely best for all, but all must respect and accept the path that each man chooses for himself. That, my brethren, is the path to lasting peace. That way lies enlightenment."


A flat, dry voice replies from a neighboring table, "Nonsense." Oort Magnus leader of Broker Cell of Nalaam stands, "How many men and women have you robbed of their destiny to find yourself here. You think your way - The Pyre's way - is the best way and would choose to force it upon everyone. Why are you even here?"

"Tell me, who are you to even say that enlightenment is a good thing? Who are you to say what is good, or bad? You seek to create a new world that upholds values of our current one. The new world must be free from the constraints of the old, from the ideologies of the old -- even ours. Do we still hold the ideals of the Fey Titans? What of the old Demonocracy? The Dragon Tyrants? They have all fallen from power, and a new world has risen from the ash, free of the old ways and left to discover what it itself calls right and good.  The Amorals recognize this; a new world will require a new baseline of what is acceptable. By eliminating morality altogether, we can truly build a new world. The Amorals will lend their support to any of the major factions who have the integrity to recognize this, and eschew what we have all come to believe - perhaps from the very planes we have been forced under! - as good and evil."


Ed Pollock stands, and thumps his oak staff against the ground drawing attention his way, "Oort, you have a point - to some degree, at least." A new world requires new principles which will be shaped by that world. Miller's Pyre addresses some social needs of our people, but forgets that much suffering is caused by hunger, storms and natural disasters which - pray tell me if I am wrong - cannot be reasoned with, nor can be stopped by logically expressing your pain towards it. 

"An Earthquake will not hear an argument as to why it should not unexpectedly devastate a region before aid can get there; an extreme drought will not debate the moral integrity of striking a region that produces food. Let us not be fools here; I believe the best solution to the our problems is what is posed by the Arboretum. If we take away the very things that originally lead us to war - our need for hospitable, safe, verdant lands against a cruel and uncaring world, and we order the world itself to serve our needs, we will no doubt find a better world where, as the Pyre wants, civil discourse is the result.  

"Just as importantly, we will not grow stagnate - our work will continually yield results. Industry and Nature will no longer be opposed, but work in harmony. The aspects of Craft and Artifice proposed will bring forth more advancements in all fronts and this world in which we have little want and need for anything, are sufficient, and have great progress will generate its own new moral system I'm sure.  And we would finally rid ourselves entirely of the Fey and their incessant meddling and demands of tribute. "

"Nature need not be an enemy," says Hanse. "Many factions of Vekeshi mystics have strong ties with the fey of the Unseen Court. Indeed, all of Risur benefits from that king's pact with the fey titans of that land. Again, I believe this is a case of xenophobic warmongering on the part of the Arboretum. Perhaps in the brave new world we envision, the fey will be no less inscrutable than our fellow men"


"We have all been gathered here," a halfling speaks up, "and yet we can't agree on anything? We can all go and vote - and then what? A happy majority while the rest go back to… what, conspiring some more to turn it into the world they want?" The halfing begins to point to the various speakers, "You want us to all feel each other's pain, and you want us to blow  up, and you want us to become some sort of robot, and still you want us to have super-powers - this is madness." 

The halfling, Abiera Stackhouse, paces, "Some of the brightest minds in the world have gathered here, and we can't agree. The world will never agree, and thus there will never be true peace in any of these plans. Heid Eschatol has become the dominant thought of Drakr, I'm sure I'm not the only one here who believes it. The world will end. We may pretend it won't, we may think we can delay it, but somehow, somewhere, it will happen. We have a unique opportunity here to make it end on our own terms; to bring about the end so that all the fighting, the debate, the wars - so that it all stops. I'm not afraid to say it's radical - I'm not afraid to say that this idea is even moral, or that things will be a better place. What I can say, for certain, is that it will be an end to all the suffering, to the poverty, to those who abuse their power, to all manner of inequality.

"We can't agree on a new world; some of us may not be able to accept the vote? So, why not… end it all. Let's do it. Let's be the radicals the rumors have made us out to be. Let's bring the end, and end it on our terms."

"Shut up, half-wit" Von Hastenschrieft Willimarkanova yells out. The dwarf scowls towards the halfling, "You obviously have gone mad and haven't listened to a damned thing anyone here has said. Had you been, you'd know what there are plenty we do agree on; for instance, that the Clergy has no place in the new world, and that we all want a new world. Heid Eschatol has been warped and stretched so much by you damned radicals that you've missed the point entirely; but even in its purity, Heide himself is almost revered amongst his followers. He has earned his respect, no doubt, he is well reasoned and charismatic - I know that I attempted to recruit him at one point, to no avail. But, the feeling of adoration, of awe are problematic to our cause. 

"Religious conviction lead to the great malice, it lead to bombings in the city of Flint, it leads to countless despicable acts in Crisillyir every day. We have all revolted against it, but none of us have made it our cause like I have. The Mortal Mind seeks to completely remove the feeling of religious awe from the world. It causes nothing but harm, it's only sound contribution to society has been in the form of the arts - all, which have been tainted by the aforementioned conviction. I'm not even a representative of the Bards - though, perhaps Miss Praesidia and I can discuss an arrangement later - but even their vision of imbuing talent and appreciation to the arts and entertainment would be more than sufficient to replace whatever contributions have been made in that department."

Satine Tibeaux, a female Tiefling cleric responds, "You do realize that divine magic has proven quite important for our cause - when was the last time you received a healing spell in your work?"

Cardinal Testamenta Suchdol, who sits beside the Tiefling, nods in agreement, "Yes; without religious conviction, who is to say we would even be here and have this opportunity? We may well still be under the rule of the demonocracy. I've been hunting demons for the last 20 years, and still have not found a way to banish their taint from this plane."

Praesidia de Vaca, leader of the Bards speaks up, "To answer your question, Mr Willimarkanova, it is hard for me to support such hatred of something that has been intrinsic to the collective humanity, no matter how misguided it may be. While we Bards want whatever the new world we decide upon to treat art and a sort of reverence, for entertainment to be good - trust me, I know you've all met some Bard whom you absolutely can't stand, some loud attention-whore who parades around on elephants, who would use talent and art for little more than asinine jokes and flippant disregard for … everything; but I urge you all to look past that, and to consider what makes a world worth living in: beauty. Consider beauty and wonder. Art is creation, walking hand in hand with science and morality to define what we are as living beings.  Many of those creations are beautiful expressions of our longings, our lives, our souls. And wonder is pure glee, making you more alive than ever."

An orc, Grargh Nobble, yells out: "I make art with goblins thrown against the wall - and it is beautiful! I support the bards!"

Praesidia interjects, "Not what I had in mind, Grargh. Nonetheless, I'm sure that the Bards can make an arrangement with Miller's Pyre; allowing music and entertainment to be forms of expression in the new world. We'd be open to discuss this more."

Hanse replies, "At last! Someone gets it! We all come from very different backgrounds, under Miller's Pyre--"

“The Pyre, while a noble ideal, is fundamentally flawed." The cutting voice seems at odds with the speaker, a rotund woman with soft features stands to her feat.

"Jiese, the plane of fire, carries the aspect of Cunning. It is this aspect that drives the gears of industry -- the gears of revolution! The Pyre would replace Cunning with Expression, enhancing our understanding of others’ motivations. Combined with their other changes, it would be far easier for groups of sentient beings to come to consensus. 

"As I said, a noble ideal!" She gestures  with an open arm towards the congregation, "But what of the cost? The loss of Cunning means the loss of progress, invention, technology. Consensus would lead to stagnation! Perhaps this would suit some within the Watchmakers: a form of social utopia where everyone agrees with everyone else, and no new ideas are promulgated. I doubt this is what the Pyre’s advocates intend, and perhaps it is an extreme vision, but we cannot risk the loss of industry! That would bind us forever to the earth, forgoing the possibilities of flight, or of planar travel. While replacing Apet as the Pyre plans would bring us closer to other planes, the preservation of Nem would still prevent us from exploring what lies beyond."

She takes a deep breath, sizing up the audience,"I see many unfamiliar faces here, a sign that our group’s distributed structure is an effective one. I am Dame Constance Baden, scholar and scientist, and I speak for the Sky League. We in the Sky League have allied ourselves with the Trekkers, those who wish to voyage beyond the realms currently known to us. We stand ready to throw our weight behind a major faction that welcomes our ideals. 

“Jiese must be preserved: on this, I think all factions that favor progress and industry over stagnant isolation can agree. Further, tampering with Reida is too great a risk. We are willing to partner with factions that will leave both Jiese and Reida untouched. 

“The planes that must be replaced are Avilona and Nem. Avilona’s Calm trait discourages progress, and replacing it would finally unshackle Jiese’s Cunning! Moreover, associating Calm with the Plane of Air prevents flight, grounding us and forcing us to travel by boat or train. But if this Calm trait is replaced, there is an opportunity to craft great vessels that will carry us to the skies! 

“I have designed just such a vessel. I call it... the ZEPPELIN!

“A functioning model has been constructed, and even as I speak now it is floating above the ground of our pocket plane. Please observe it at your leisure.

“Meanwhile, Nem locks us away from what is beyond the world. Imagine what lands we might find beyond the seals? What we might learn? Naturally, there are risks, but eternal isolation would be a far greater threat to our civilization. With proper defenses, the risks of extraplanar invasion can be mitigated. And we need not become the world’s overlords, as Colossus suggests – with Cunning unshackled, our technology would be our defense! Some of you may have heard of the strange beasts sighted at the Kaybeau Exposition in Flint last year, how could such creatures hope to stand against the ZEPPELIN?

“We would also support replacing Urim, Apet and Mavisha, but this is not essential. Mavisha’s Mystery trait is an impediment to progress, but it is less severe than Calm. Teleportation magic is also less important in a land where flight is possible. And finally, Apet’s distance property could be part of a reasonable defense against extraplanar invasion once Nem is replaced.

“If the Pyre, Colossus, Arboretum, or Panarchists are willing to revise their plans to accommodate us, we will gladly assist with the planar alignment calculations.” 

Grargh Nobble yells out, "I make goblins fly! Before they hit the wall…"

The debate continues on into the night…


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## RangerWickett (May 28, 2020)

Ajar said:


> Constance, who has been writing rapidly in a tidy hand ever since sitting down, finally sets down her stylus and rises again.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




I'm bumping this, perhaps my favorite thread I ever made on EN World, to make sure Ajar knows that ZEITGEIST's third act was basically set by his post.


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## Ajar (Jun 6, 2020)

Thanks! I spent a long time thinking about what a sweeping compromise proposal would look like. I made a spreadsheet of planes and aspects and went through everything with the information I had at the time (since obviously act 3 hadn't been written yet!) to try and make it as internally consistent as possible while still being a compelling and persuasive proposal. 

Even though the Ob take "ends justify the means" to insane extremes, I wanted to make sure that in my game at least, absent intervention by players or other forces, the ultimate objective of the conspiracy really is to create a world where life is better for most people. Of course, there are many ways for that to go awry (as we see in act 3). 

Throughout my game I've emphasized Miller's philosophy, particularly how Miller grappled with the constant question of how we can have a just society when everyone has different needs, goals, and beliefs about what a just society looks like. It's a topical question now, and will continue to be long after we've finished this campaign. Once they get into act 3 and begin to realize that they will likely have a role in shaping a new reality, I'm expecting that groundwork to bear some interesting fruit. 

In fact, we're finally getting close to act 3 -- just started adventure 9. Exciting times ahead!


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## MarkM (Oct 7, 2020)

I just discovered this thread. I skimmed everything initially, and now am doing a detailed read of the whole adventure path while making some notes as I go. I despaired a bit reading the last act of Schism -- such cool concepts, but how do I make both the exploration/debate and the massive chaotic combat scene workable using a VTT? 

This thread (and especially the compilation of the arguments along with the idea of a table read) really helped the first challenge. I'm really grateful to everyone who posted their thoughts. 

The second part will just have to play out because it's hard to even guess who will be fighting whom... but even if I get bogged down the scope and scale of the combat will be epic enough that players should be patient.


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