# HACKMASTER Basic - for free!



## Morrus (Aug 10, 2012)

There's no good reason not to download a completely free copy of Kenzer & Co.'s _Hackmaster Basic, _so I'd suggest you not bother reading on and simply head on over and download the 231-page PDF right now.
Congratulations! In a world where there is no shortage of mediocre games, you’ve managed to find one of the true gems. Designed from the ground up to be played at a table with real life friends, this hard-hitting, old-school game makes no qualms about its heritage. This is the way role playing games were meant to be played and we present to you the best of breed.

This version of the game is 'basic' only in that it serves as a gateway to the dynamic thrill of the HackMaster game. Gone are the days of waiting around for your 'turn', of battling static opponents or of being anything but totally in charge of your own destiny. 
We want to to try HackMaster so we're letting you download the basic game for free! What have you got to lose?

Here’s just a sample of what you’ll find in this free 231-page PDF:
• A combat system geared for quick, hard-hitting, dynamic action.
• 11 Ready-to-Play characters
• Knock-back rules that eliminate static “conga line of death” battles
• Penetration damage, damage reduction from armor and shields and revamped ranged combat rules, including shield 'cover'
• A combination of slot and spell point system that allows for 'straight up' mage play but at the same time allows your mage to change spells on the fly or increase a spell’s range, duration and other effects
• 70+ spells (including Skipping Betty Fireballs and Heat Seeking Fist of Thunder)
• Classic fantasy races (dwarf, elf, halfling, human) and classes (fighter, thief, mage, and cleric) for your campaign
• Five clerical classes to choose from!
• An all-new thief statistic: Luck Points!
• Quirks and flaws that transform your PC into a real character
• Building Point rules that let you customize a character to your own style (there are no ‘cookie cutter characters’ here!)
• Quick-Start rules for even faster character creation 
• Skills and talents and proficiencies (including all weapons and armor) and specialization open to every character class... for a price
• Honor tightly integrated into play and with more flexible usage
• Confidential GameMaster chapters with treasure tables, 75 monsters, magic items, tips and more
• Three adventures included so you can start gaming immediately
​Get it here!


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## griffonwing (Aug 10, 2012)

*HackMaster Basic PDF now a FREE download!*

Want to see what all the fuss about HackMaster is? Download the HMBasic pdf for FREE! and start gaming in minutes!

http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_94&products_id=862


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## prosfilaes (Aug 10, 2012)

I recalled character generation rules in Hackmaster Basic I looked at. Were those always only in Hackmaster Basic Plus? With only sample characters to use for PCs, and a cap at 5th level (which, yes, was always there), it really feels like a preview. A 231 page, fully-usable preview, which stretches the definition of the word, but still.


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## Alzrius (Aug 10, 2012)

griffonwing said:


> Want to see what all the fuss about HackMaster is? Download the HMBasic pdf for FREE! and start gaming in minutes!
> 
> http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info...roducts_id=862




The product link has been truncated, can you repost the full link please?


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## Erekose (Aug 10, 2012)

This seems to work:

http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/hackmaster_basic_free_.pdf


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## Jolly_Blackburn (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks for spreading the world Griff.

Here's a handy chart comparing the different HackMaster New Edition books.

http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2507&d=1344602073

Also be aware HMB is completely updated and includes three adventures now.


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## Jolly_Blackburn (Aug 10, 2012)

Here you go.... Kenzer & Company Working link to the free book


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## Agamon (Aug 10, 2012)

prosfilaes said:


> I recalled character generation rules in Hackmaster Basic I looked at. Were those always only in Hackmaster Basic Plus? With only sample characters to use for PCs, and a cap at 5th level (which, yes, was always there), it really feels like a preview. A 231 page, fully-usable preview, which stretches the definition of the word, but still.




That's the whole point.  You get to read/try the game.  If you like it, you can get the HM books and continue your campaign (the rules are the same, the PHB just adds more to it).  If not, you invested no more than some time to find out.


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## kitsune9 (Aug 10, 2012)

Nice. Downloaded my copy.


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## ShinHakkaider (Aug 10, 2012)

prosfilaes said:


> I recalled character generation rules in Hackmaster Basic I looked at. Were those always only in Hackmaster Basic Plus? With only sample characters to use for PCs, and a cap at 5th level (which, yes, was always there), it really feels like a preview. A 231 page, fully-usable preview, which stretches the definition of the word, but still.




Yeah and now I feel like a schmuck because I actually PAID for this a few months back.


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## griffonwing (Aug 10, 2012)

ShinHakkaider said:


> Yeah and now I feel like a schmuck because I actually PAID for this a few months back.




Think of this simply as a free update/errata with bonus features.  Updates to the rules and  3 free adventures (1 of which is a side adventure straight from the Frandor's Keep module).


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## Jolly_Blackburn (Aug 10, 2012)

acutally you bought the FULL book with the char-gen rules and other material missing from the free version (such as the chapter on dice). And the added material (such as the adventures) are free so they cost you nothing extra to own.


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## prosfilaes (Aug 10, 2012)

Agamon said:


> That's the whole point.  You get to read/try the game.  If you like it, you can get the HM books and continue your campaign (the rules are the same, the PHB just adds more to it).  If not, you invested no more than some time to find out.




I'm just sort of happier when my previews are labeled previews, and not presented as whole books.


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 11, 2012)

prosfilaes said:


> I'm just sort of happier when my previews are labeled previews, and not presented as whole books.




Holmes Edition D&D was 48 pages, topped out at 3rd level, and was considered a full game then. This free version of HMB seems like a whole book to me.


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## Stormonu (Aug 11, 2012)

This ... rocks!


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## Dice4Hire (Aug 11, 2012)

I downloaded it and might look through it, but I cannot imagine ever playing it.


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## TarionzCousin (Aug 11, 2012)

Dice4Hire said:


> I downloaded it and might look through it, but I cannot imagine ever playing it.



You're a gamer! I bet your imagination can handle it.


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## Blackwarder (Aug 11, 2012)

Where are the free advantures?

Warder


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## Agamon (Aug 11, 2012)

prosfilaes said:


> I'm just sort of happier when my previews are labeled previews, and not presented as whole books.




Except that it's more of a whole book than a preview.  Many people, myself included, played HMB campaigns with nothing but HMB, it's a complete game in itself.  HM just expands upon it with more options and levels of play.


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## prosfilaes (Aug 11, 2012)

Agamon said:


> Except that it's more of a whole book than a preview.  Many people, myself included, played HMB campaigns with nothing but HMB, it's a complete game in itself.  HM just expands upon it with more options and levels of play.




Jolly Blackburn above implies that there are pages in the printed book that aren't in this PDF. I'm pretty sure the book had character creation rules, and nobody has seen fit to gainsay me on that point.


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## Nathal (Aug 11, 2012)

I paid for it to, and gave my print copy to a friend since I haven't had time for an actual game. Now I get it back in PDF, so my generosity has been rewarded! 



ShinHakkaider said:


> Yeah and now I feel like a schmuck because I actually PAID for this a few months back.


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## techno (Aug 12, 2012)

I have been reading the free HMB book today. I am surprisingly impressed with it. It has convinced me to buy the PHB and the HOB. I thought Hackmaster was a "parody" game and not a serious RPG. Apparently, that has completely changed. The book I read today got me much more energized than anything I have seen in D&D Next so far (which, granted, is still only in early playtesting). I am seriously considering getting off the WotC treadmill and, right now, Hackmaster is a serious contender based on what I read today. I am especially intrigued by the "real time" combat system. Sounds very different, chaotic, and fun. I play D&D 4e and my players usually have to wait 5-8 minutes before taking their turn again. For our teenage players, waiting is boring and they tend to tune out quickly. I am intrigued by Hackmaster's approach to keeping everyone actively involved in combat at all times. I was also very surprised to see so much emphasis on non-combat role playing. Honor seems to be a great approach to rewarding good role playing. With a name like "Hackmaster," I figured the game would only focus on one thing--combat. I was pleasantly surprised to learn this was not the case.


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## Agamon (Aug 12, 2012)

techno said:


> I thought Hackmaster was a "parody" game and not a serious RPG. Apparently, that has completely changed.




This is something KenzerCo has been fighting for a couple years now.  If you don't read Knights of the Dinner Table or visit the forums, it's an understandable conclusion.  I think what they did here was mostly to combat that viewpoint, nice to see it's helping.


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## Wraith101 (Aug 12, 2012)

Very impressed with this. One of the best 'freebies' I have ever downloaded.


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## ArmoredSaint (Aug 12, 2012)

I really like this game.

I'm just sorry that it doesn't include plate armour...


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## Zelkon (Aug 12, 2012)

My god. This is the most disgusting system I've ever seen! And people say D&D 4e inhibits role-playing.


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## griffonwing (Aug 12, 2012)

ArmoredSaint said:


> I really like this game.
> 
> I'm just sorry that it doesn't include plate armour...




HackMaster DOES include plate armor.  It is simply not in the Basic book (which covers everything needed up to level 5) because it is advanced/expensive armor.  

Just like how there is no higher level spells in HMBasic, like Teleport.  The game has them, just not the basic book.


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## Treebore (Aug 12, 2012)

Zelkon said:


> My god. This is the most disgusting system I've ever seen! And people say D&D 4e inhibits role-playing.





I take it you didn't read about Quirks and Flaws? Because unlike 4E this is a mechanical system that encourages you to take such personality aspects and role play. So it strongly encourages you to role play. So does the Honor system. So you may want to read the PDF again.


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## griffonwing (Aug 13, 2012)

Zelkon said:


> My god. This is the most disgusting system I've ever seen! And people say D&D 4e inhibits role-playing.






Treebore said:


> I take it you didn't read about Quirks and Flaws? Because unlike 4E this is a mechanical system that encourages you to take such personality aspects and role play. So it strongly encourages you to role play. So does the Honor system. So you may want to read the PDF again.




Definitely true.  If you do not roleplay your class, race, quirks and flaws, then you get docked honor. Low Honor could eventually be detrimental, and has an impact on your standing in the game world.  It also incurs negatives to certain rolls.


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## KJSEvans (Aug 13, 2012)

ArmoredSaint said:


> I really like this game.
> 
> I'm just sorry that it doesn't include plate armour...




Plate mail is in the Player's Handbook. Generally, the way treasure works in the game, a 5th level PC wouldn't be able to afford it anyway.


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## Zelkon (Aug 13, 2012)

Treebore said:


> I take it you didn't read about Quirks and Flaws? Because unlike 4E this is a mechanical system that encourages you to take such personality aspects and role play. So it strongly encourages you to role play. So does the Honor system. So you may want to read the PDF again.




Actually, that's my whole beef: the Honor system. It's incredibly restrictive. A thief must "look out for number one" or lose *honor*. Yes, you are dishonorable if you help your allies. Plus, you must strictly follow every bit of your incredibly vague alignment, which each person interprets differently. Quirks  are basically adjectives you can add to your character that force you to play a certain way, and often godmods your character. I like flaws, though.


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## lejanius (Aug 13, 2012)

Zelkon said:


> Actually, that's my whole beef: the Honor system. It's incredibly restrictive. A thief must "look out for number one" or lose *honor*. Yes, you are dishonorable if you help your allies. Plus, you must strictly follow every bit of your incredibly vague alignment, which each person interprets differently. Quirks  are basically adjectives you can add to your character that force you to play a certain way, and often godmods your character. I like flaws, though.



Just like any game mechanic, you could ignore the honor system with relative ease if you dislike it that much.

Or, you could build an argument for why your PC acts a certain way.  I assume your GM would be on board as long as you were consistent (at least I would as a GM).

In my game we use the Honor mechanic but I think there's plenty of room for being a bit loose in how you interpret alignment or class restrictions if you were into that sort of thing.


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## ArmoredSaint (Aug 13, 2012)

griffonwing said:


> HackMaster DOES include plate armor.  It is  simply not in the Basic book (which covers everything needed up to level  5) because it is advanced/expensive armor.
> 
> Just like how there is no higher level spells in HMBasic, like Teleport.  The game has them, just not the basic book.







KJSEvans said:


> Plate mail is in the Player's Handbook.  Generally, the way treasure works in the game, a 5th level PC wouldn't  be able to afford it anyway.



This changes everything!


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## Treebore (Aug 13, 2012)

Zelkon said:


> Actually, that's my whole beef: the Honor system. It's incredibly restrictive. A thief must "look out for number one" or lose *honor*. Yes, you are dishonorable if you help your allies. Plus, you must strictly follow every bit of your incredibly vague alignment, which each person interprets differently. Quirks  are basically adjectives you can add to your character that force you to play a certain way, and often godmods your character. I like flaws, though.





No, your not dishonorable in helping your allies. Your dishonorable if your not helping them to keep "number one" alive and with a positive cash flow.
Its all in the WHY you do something, not just what you do.


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## griffonwing (Aug 13, 2012)

Treebore said:


> No, your not dishonorable in helping your allies. Your dishonorable if your not helping them to keep "number one" alive and with a positive cash flow.
> Its all in the WHY you do something, not just what you do.




Also, the game is designed to be tailored to the gaming group with most rules optional.  Simply talk to the GM and come to an agreement on what constitutes an honor hit.  This way, you arent surprised by low scores in an honor category.

Sometimes, sacrificing honor for the benefit of the group can equal those points returned at the end of the session or campaign.


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## Zelkon (Aug 13, 2012)

Treebore said:


> No, your not dishonorable in helping your allies. Your dishonorable if your not helping them to keep "number one" alive and with a positive cash flow.
> Its all in the WHY you do something, not just what you do.




No, my point is it kills any hope of a good thief. Each class is expected to act one way, and if they don't, they are penalized.


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## KJSEvans (Aug 13, 2012)

Zelkon said:


> No, my point is it kills any hope of a good thief. Each class is expected to act one way, and if they don't, they are penalized.




Can you perhaps give an example of something you'd like to do as a thief which you feel the game restricts?


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 13, 2012)

Zelkon said:


> No, my point is it kills any hope of a good thief. Each class is expected to act one way, and if they don't, they are penalized.




And that is how the game gets seen as a parody of d&d


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## KJSEvans (Aug 13, 2012)

GMforPowergamers said:


> And that is how the game gets seen as a parody of d&d




Based on a misconception of the game? Is it possible that some folks make judgments without fair shakes?


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 13, 2012)

KJSEvans said:


> Based on a misconception of the game? Is it possible that some folks make judgments without fair shakes?




1st yes... 100x yes. In this world way more people jump to a conclusion then make an informed desision.

2nd what is the parody of the 1e theif... Only looking out for #1  and stealing money (even from his own party)... And makeing a rule that not only supports but encourages that parody is the problem.

Knights of the dinner table is funny and all to real, but when those moments ccome up where my players act that way I want it to be inspite of the system not inspired from it


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## KJSEvans (Aug 13, 2012)

GMforPowergamers said:


> 1st yes... 100x yes. In this world way more people jump to a conclusion then make an informed desision.
> 
> 2nd what is the parody of the 1e theif... Only looking out for [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 [/URL]  and stealing money (even from his own party)... And makeing a rule that not only supports but encourages that parody is the problem.
> 
> Knights of the dinner table is funny and all to real, but when those moments ccome up where my players act that way I want it to be inspite of the system not inspired from it




I suppose I could be mistaken, but having read the HMb and PHB sections on honor, and having read the alignment chapters and the class descriptions, I'm pretty sure that the context of 'looking out for number 1' is specifically in reference to why a thief doesn't act, for example, like a cleric (such as through joining a religious order). It is nowhere said, nor implied, that a thief SHOULD rob his comrades or betray them. Just that he could. And that would pertain more toward his alignment, rather than his class.

Basically, you can certainly take any one line from the HMb (or, for that matter, from something written in Pathfinder or 4E) and, out of context, determine that it's a reason to dislike the game. But as somebody who has played/run the game for about two years now, I can only present to you the following facts...

*Thieves serve a vital role in any party, especially pertaining to trap avoidance and even, actually, helping a group become combat ready. A thief has the tendency to 'go first,' as they are less likely to be surprised when combat is initiated. In HackMaster, a ready character can mitigate the surprise of the fighter who is likely to have a slower reaction time. 

*No character, even of the same race and class, is likely to be 'played the same.' Based on alignment, quirks, flaws, talents and proficiencies, each and every character that I've seen has been quite different. I have seen the cut-throat thief, the guy who stole from his party and eventually killed one, but most thief-types have been simply helpful and valuable. There was no honor penalty for that - they were playing their characters, and were rewarded as such in honor and experience points.

In any case, it would certainly be silly of somebody to assume that everybody will like a game - or for that matter, will even like it for the same reason. If HackMaster isn't for you, GM, or for Zelkon, then no amount of persuasion will change your mind. However, I would only hope two things (and would hope this for any game you'd take the time to discuss, or read about): don't make a quick judgment based on the opinion of someone who might have skimmed the book, and more importantly, play the game before you come to a determination yourself. 

For me, it's the only game I've ever played that's held my interest after two years. I can't get enough of it. Cheers, and game on!


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## griffonwing (Aug 13, 2012)

Honor also involves alignment.   So when you add all of these together, Class type, Alignment, Racial tendancies, Background, Quirks, Flaws, you have a character that is unique.  A thief character that has the Greedy, Swindler, and or Miser quirk will be more inclined to screw over the party when it comes to wealth or treasure.  Not based upon him just being a Thief, but based upon his individual quirks.

A Thief with the Nagging Conscious quirk might try to screw over the party, but should inevitably give it all back.

Again, the Honor you receive is not based solely on the ideal that a thief "Only looks out for #1  and steals from the party", and nor does this game encourage such behaviour, not unless the "entire package" dictates such.

And if your thief ends up with this tendancy, simply spend 1 BP and roll another quirk.  Or maybe the GM will be kind enough to remove certain quirks from the game, or even ease up on the Honor restrictions.

Again, this game is all about hard choices, but even more so, it's all about fun.  Take out what you don't like, Keep what you do.


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 13, 2012)

First of all I love the retro clones (except pathfinder) 

Second pointing out why something isn't the best doesn't mean you need to defend it

Third, my point is that when mechanics lean toward parody of a game and people also comment on it trying to shake that image, maybe the image problem comes from something


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## Treebore (Aug 13, 2012)

Zelkon said:


> No, my point is it kills any hope of a good thief. Each class is expected to act one way, and if they don't, they are penalized.




I can only assume your missing something. I ran Hackmaster Basic for over 8 months, using Quirks and Flaws and the Honor system, and had 4 different people play a thief in that time, and every last one of them played a "good" thief. Then after that I played in a game for several months, because I wanted to try out the mage as a player. There was two thieves in that game, and both of them never screwed over the party. They were "good" thieves.


So all I can suggest at this point is to actually try playing the game and see how all the rules actually come together, because from my perspective, your missing something very critical.

If you simply end up not liking the game, I can understand that too. I haven't played in about a year now, and have no desire to play it ever again. Not that I won't, I don't dislike the game, there are just simply many other RPG's I am actually motivated to spend my time with.


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## griffonwing (Aug 13, 2012)

GMforPowergamers said:


> First of all I love the retro clones (except pathfinder)
> 
> Second pointing out why something isn't the best doesn't mean you need to defend it
> 
> Third, my point is that when mechanics lean toward parody of a game and people also comment on it trying to shake that image, maybe the image problem comes from something




I simply see no parody at all in this game.  There is humor, yes, but there is no parody.  This system was built from the ground up, incorportating different mechanics than DnD.  HM4e was a full-blown parody, it's true.  This new edition is not; it is it's own creation.

That, really, is my only defense.  I don't even see this as a retro-clone


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## Treebore (Aug 13, 2012)

griffonwing said:


> I simply see no parody at all in this game.  There is humor, yes, but there is no parody.  This system was built from the ground up, incorportating different mechanics than DnD.  HM4e was a full-blown parody, it's true.  This new edition is not; it is it's own creation.
> 
> That, really, is my only defense.  I don't even see this as a retro-clone




Yeah, this is no where close to being a "retro clone". Very new rules set. The only RPG this shares any similarities with is Kenzers own Aces and Eights, and even then there are a lot of differences, in how you build characters, how skill works, and even how combat works, starting with initiative all the way to how attacks are resolved, let alone the addition of magic.


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## KJSEvans (Aug 13, 2012)

GMforPowergamers said:


> First of all I love the retro clones (except pathfinder)
> 
> Second pointing out why something isn't the best doesn't mean you need to defend it




I'm not really interested in persuading anyone that HM is the "best" - that would be silly. Lots of folks have their favorites for the simple reason that they like them the best. It'd be hard to refute that.

However, in responding to someone who says a game is "garbage," or to someone who makes assumptions about a game, I can only point out that there are likely folks reading this thread who have never read - or perhaps even heard of - the game. As this is a forum in which information is shared, it only makes sense that any opinion made or gained is an informed one. Therefore, not addressing incorrect assumptions or criticisms about a game may be seen by some as a tantamount acknowledgment that said criticisms are fair.



> Third, my point is that when mechanics lean toward parody of a game and people also comment on it trying to shake that image, maybe the image problem comes from something




From time to time I've heard of folks who simply refuse to consider that the current version of HM is deadly serious - but I'd never encountered any before. I wouldn't consider this reputation to be a "problem," however. If that is your opinion of the game, you are already rightly in the minority. 

Many folks may have extremely valid reasons for not loving HM as much as enthusiasts such as myself - but I feel that all such reasons basically boil down to experience playing the game and, most importantly, personal preference. Please don't confuse my "defense" of the game as an attempt to change your mind; rather I am just here to provide information!


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 13, 2012)

Treebore said:


> Yeah, this is no where close to being a "retro clone". Very new rules set. The only RPG this shares any similarities with is Kenzers own Aces and Eights, and even then there are a lot of differences, in how you build characters, how skill works, and even how combat works, starting with initiative all the way to how attacks are resolved, let alone the addition of magic.




I consider it part of a set of games (called hack master) that started as a retro clone and parody... I am unsure if it really out grew that.


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## KJSEvans (Aug 13, 2012)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I consider it part of a set of games (called hack master) that started as a retro clone and parody... I am unsure if it really out grew that.




If you feel that way, but interact with folks who've played the game and universally say your assumption is incorrect, but you _still_ feel that way, then it seems pretty clear that you made up your mind even before interacting with anyone. I don't quite know what that accomplishes for you - maybe it makes it easier for you to avoid investing your time and money in a game you're prepared to dislike?

In any case, I'm sure folks can make up their own minds about HM. What's really important is that you are having fun playing ANY game - more gamers is always better!


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## Zelkon (Aug 13, 2012)

Treebore said:


> I can only assume your missing something. I ran Hackmaster Basic for over 8 months, using Quirks and Flaws and the Honor system, and had 4 different people play a thief in that time, and every last one of them played a "good" thief. Then after that I played in a game for several months, because I wanted to try out the mage as a player. There was two thieves in that game, and both of them never screwed over the party. They were "good" thieves.
> 
> 
> So all I can suggest at this point is to actually try playing the game and see how all the rules actually come together, because from my perspective, your missing something very critical.
> ...



Hopefuly I can some day, but my group hardly ever meets and none of us have any more money to experement with. It's not really my style, anyway. I hate old school.


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## Treebore (Aug 13, 2012)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I consider it part of a set of games (called hack master) that started as a retro clone and parody... I am unsure if it really out grew that.




It is a radically different rules set, it has absolutely outgrown any such thing. Especially since to be a "clone" a high degree of inter compatibility and similarity must be maintained. The new HM is not in any way easy to convert back to the old version, let alone AD&D, so it most assuredly is not a clone.


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## Dire Bare (Aug 14, 2012)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I consider it part of a set of games (called hack master) that started as a retro clone and parody... I am unsure if it really out grew that.






KJSEvans said:


> If you feel that way, but interact with folks who've played the game and universally say your assumption is incorrect, but you _still_ feel that way, then it seems pretty clear that you made up your mind even before interacting with anyone. I don't quite know what that accomplishes for you - maybe it makes it easier for you to avoid investing your time and money in a game you're prepared to dislike?
> 
> In any case, I'm sure folks can make up their own minds about HM. What's really important is that you are having fun playing ANY game - more gamers is always better!






Treebore said:


> It is a radically different rules set, it has absolutely outgrown any such thing. Especially since to be a "clone" a high degree of inter compatibility and similarity must be maintained. The new HM is not in any way easy to convert back to the old version, let alone AD&D, so it most assuredly is not a clone.




The current version of the HackMaster rules may not be intended as a parody, they may be very different from the original HM rules, and HM might just be a great fantasy RPG set of rules . . . . . . . .

But to get all bent out of shape when people see the game as a parody of D&D is deliberately ignoring the history of the game, and the HackMaster brand.  Before there was even a set of rules, the HackMaster game as featured in the Knights of the Dinner Table was most certainly a parody of D&D.  When Kenzer developed the first set of HM rules, they were a retroclone of 1st and 2nd Ed D&D and the setting of the game was also very much a parody of D&D.  The game, more importantly, the brand, was founded as a parody of the original and most beloved of RPG games.  And the name, HackMaster . . . I just can't take that seriously, regardless of the rules underneath the logo.

Kenzer is trying to take a parody brand and turn it around into a serious game with a ridiculous name, and IMO it's no wonder it's still perceived as a parody RPG.  I think they would have been much better served leaving HackMaster in the realm of parody and creating a new flagship fantasy game for the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting.

For those who love the new game, more power to you!  I trust you when you say the new game is no longer a parody of D&D . . . but it just isn't going to shake the taste of parody, no matter how hard you try.  Accept it.


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## mhensley (Aug 14, 2012)

I'm really looking forward to taking a look at the new phb at gencon this week.  Making the basic book free really gets rid of the last barrier to getting my group to give it a try.


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 14, 2012)

Hey I would love to be wrong. I played older hm and I dont dislike them, but it does come off as a parody. I DO PLAN TO READ THIS FREE, BOOK OVER THE WEEKEND, and play it


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## KJSEvans (Aug 14, 2012)

Dire Bare said:


> For those who love the new game, more power to you!  I trust you when you say the new game is no longer a parody of D&D . . . but it just isn't going to shake the taste of parody, no matter how hard you try.  Accept it.




I've been talking about HM ever since I started playing it, with a large number of folks. This is the first time, in person or on the net, that I've encountered anybody who seems to insist that HM is a parody game, or that it's even SEEN as a parody game. If that's how you feel, then you are in the minority (and you are quite possibly missing out).

But believe me - nobody's bent out of shape. I respect any gamer who's playing what he or she loves. However, if you are seeking information on a game I love, I'm happy to provide it. 

BTW - I and a number of other GMs run HM online using programs like Roll20, MapTools+Ventrilo, G+, etc. If anybody is interested in trying out the game, you are welcome to shoot me a PM and I will try to arrange a demo on your behalf.


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## Maggan (Aug 14, 2012)

KJSEvans said:


> I've been talking about HM ever since I started playing it, with a large number of folks. This is the first time, in person or on the net, that I've encountered anybody who seems to insist that HM is a parody game, or that it's even SEEN as a parody game.




Interesting.

KenzerCo wrote in the foreword to the first Hackmaster rules that it was a parody game, and they also acknowledge that in the foreword to this Hackmaster Basic download.

And the history is very much as a parody game in the comics. So the flipside to your observation for me is that it is a parody game that can be played in several ways, even as a "serious" game.

That those who see it as a parody game are in a minority is strange to me, since the game billed itself a parody game. 

And to me, being a parody game doesn't detract from the quality of the game. 

EDIT: a thought came to me, maybe you mean only the current incarnation of Hackmaster?

Cheers

/M


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## griffonwing (Aug 14, 2012)

Maggan said:


> Interesting.
> 
> KenzerCo wrote in the foreword to the first Hackmaster rules that it was a parody game, and they also acknowledge that in the foreword to this Hackmaster Basic download.
> 
> ...




Yes, I do believe KJSEvans was referring to the new iteration (HackMaster) as opposed to the older version (HackMaster 4th edition).  

K&Co decided to keep the 5th edition suffix off of the new HM to emphasize that this was not a sequal or a continuance of the spoof/parody game, but a game unto itself.  To quote a cliche, it's honestly like comparing apples to oranges.

The history of HM was definitely full-on parody and over-the-top humor, but then, it had to be, based upon the requirements of WOTC.  With Wizards out of the picture, and with Kenzer creating this game from the ground up, the spoofing parody was tossed.  However, they did keep the Garyspeak, and some of the humor stayed; after all, gaming is suppose to be fun.  

I never had a chance to play the parody HM4e, as my group was into 2nd edition DnD and then into 3rd, and RIFTS, SpellJammer.  I do now have copies of the books, yet I have never played them.  Reading them, tho, does seem like it would be a blast to play.  Still yet, I much prefer the newer iteration.   The 'new' mechanics that this game uses just seems innovative, even though they have been used in other systems before, individually; being brought together and refined into this system simply makes a lot of sense, as a gamer.



			
				GMforPowergamers said:
			
		

> Hey I would love to be wrong. I played older hm and I dont dislike them, but it does come off as a parody. I DO PLAN TO READ THIS FREE, BOOK OVER THE WEEKEND, and play it



Honoestly, reading the book and drawing your own conclusion on the game is all anyone could ever ask.  Even if you decided that the system sucked and that it was not your style, at least it would be an informed opinion.


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## GeorgeFields (Aug 15, 2012)

Zelkon said:


> My god. This is the most disgusting system I've ever seen! And people say D&D 4e inhibits role-playing.




We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

I was ready to give up playing RPGs before this was originally released in 2009. I read a thread on the Kenzer boards about the game before it was released and decided to pre-order it. My love for RPGs was completely rejuvenated.

I was lucky enough to gather up most of my AD&D2e group and started a campaign. It was more fun than than we remember gaming back in the 90s.

As far as the parody element, does it really matter? HM4e was admittedly parodied from AD&D, but it was a strong and solid system behind all of that.
Admittedly, I never played it because I was deep into D&D3e at the time.

The bottom line is this. We're all gamers. Play the games that you love. Try other games out from time to time. If you don't like it, move along. If you do like it, maybe you can work it into your gaming life.

If you don't like a game, there's no need to talk bad about it or the people that play it. If someone talks bad about your game, it's all his/her opinion - move on and don't worry about it.
It all about personal preferences. None of us are wrong about the games we love.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Aug 15, 2012)

The core of HackMaster (the previous edition) was basically EVERYTHING that had been published for 1st & 2nd edition AD&D, from the early issues of Dragon to the 2e "splatbooks" and even Skills & Powers. So, playing a character in HackMaster with the core + the HackMaster splatbook for you class was basically like playing AD&D 2e with absolutely all the rules ever published for your class being available -- and that is kind of a parody in its own right.

Just like AD&D, most people played HackMaster using the rules they wanted to use and discarded the rest. 

Now, as for the new edition, I don't know much about it. I do know that I was underwhelmed by the Basic rulebook. And I really didn't need the same section on dice reprinted from the HackMaster book -- that was just filler. But I will eventually download this revised version, once I can find my registration password thing for Kenzer.


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## Falstaff (Aug 15, 2012)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> The core of HackMaster (the previous edition) was basically EVERYTHING that had been published for 1st & 2nd edition AD&D, from the early issues of Dragon to the 2e "splatbooks" and even Skills & Powers. So, playing a character in HackMaster with the core + the HackMaster splatbook for you class was basically like playing AD&D 2e with absolutely all the rules ever published for your class being available -- and that is kind of a parody in its own right.
> 
> Just like AD&D, most people played HackMaster using the rules they wanted to use and discarded the rest.
> 
> Now, as for the new edition, I don't know much about it. I do know that I was underwhelmed by the Basic rulebook. And I really didn't need the same section on dice reprinted from the HackMaster book -- that was just filler. But I will eventually download this revised version, once I can find my registration password thing for Kenzer.




No need to register or add to cart. Scroll about half-way down the page and there's a link to the PDF.

Kenzer & Company


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## Dire Bare (Aug 15, 2012)

griffonwing said:


> The history of HM was definitely full-on parody and over-the-top humor, *but then, it had to be, based upon the requirements of WOTC*.  With Wizards out of the picture, and with Kenzer creating this game from the ground up, the spoofing parody was tossed.  However, they did keep the Garyspeak, and some of the humor stayed; after all, gaming is suppose to be fun.




Really?  WotC *required* KenzerCo to release a parody retroclone of AD&D?  KenzerCo wasn't allowed to come up with their own system?  KenzerCo made the decision to license AD&D IP and rules elements, they didn't have to.  I'll buy that WotC might have said, "Sure we'll license that to you, if you play it as a parody."  But somehow, considering where the name and idea of "HackMaster" comes from, I don't see this idea or "requirement" coming from WotC.  And regardless, it was KenzerCo's decision to license AD&D as opposed to coming up with their own system.

And why not?  It was the golden age of the d20 boom and it made perfect sense to me that KenzerCo wanted to offer something different than another d20 supplement (like their Kingdoms of Kalamar offerings at the time).  A loving and fully playable parody of (arguably) the best RPG ever?  Perfect!



GeoFFields said:


> As far as the parody element, does it really matter? HM4e was admittedly parodied from AD&D, but it was a strong and solid system behind all of that.




IMO, HackMaster didn't suffer from being a parody game.  As others have pointed out, it was pretty much AD&D with all the rules, and the parody was well done and done with love.  You could have stripped out all of the parody, and been left with a very playable retroclone of AD&D.


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## 13garth13 (Aug 16, 2012)

Dire Bare said:


> Really?  WotC *required* KenzerCo to release a parody retroclone of AD&D?  KenzerCo wasn't allowed to come up with their own system?  KenzerCo made the decision to license AD&D IP and rules elements, they didn't have to.  I'll buy that WotC might have said, "Sure we'll license that to you, if you play it as a parody."  But somehow, considering where the name and idea of "HackMaster" comes from, I don't see this idea or "requirement" coming from WotC.  And regardless, it was KenzerCo's decision to license AD&D as opposed to coming up with their own system.
> 
> And why not?  It was the golden age of the d20 boom and it made perfect sense to me that KenzerCo wanted to offer something different than another d20 supplement (like their Kingdoms of Kalamar offerings at the time).  A loving and fully playable parody of (arguably) the best RPG ever?  Perfect!
> .




Actually, I'm pretty sure that Hackmaster was the end result of a legal scuffle between TSR/WOTC (not sure which it was at the time) due to the release of the Dragon CD archive, which contained KotDT comic strips....which hadn't been cleared for reprint rights.  Dave Kenzer got Hackmaster out of the bargain, years prior to the OGL/d20 license.

My memory is fuzzy, so I hope someone better informed corrects any errors I've made....

Cheers,
Colin


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## Jolly_Blackburn (Aug 16, 2012)

Yes HM was a parody on the surface. Yes WotC made that a requirement of the license (and enforced it -- the approval process was quite strigent in fact).

 Didn't stop us from putting a fun, playable game beneath that veneer for those who took the time to pick up and play that game.  And thousands did. I don't mind the 'joke game' stigma of HM4e -- it certainly didn't adversely impact sales.

Reason there are hundreds of different RPG systems on the market is simple -- different strokes for different folks. End of the day it's all subjective.  Pick a game and play.  

Personally I embrace the fact HM4e (old edition) was a parody of AD&D -- that was the entire point for that particular edition. But 'parody' doesn't automaticaly mean 'joke game' or unplayable. As many folks who played HM4e already know.  HackMaster NEW edition...?  Yeah - different animal.


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## Jolly_Blackburn (Aug 16, 2012)

lol. DIsgusting?  My God, we've been exposed.


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## Dire Bare (Aug 16, 2012)

13garth13 said:


> Actually, I'm pretty sure that Hackmaster was the end result of a legal scuffle between TSR/WOTC (not sure which it was at the time) due to the release of the Dragon CD archive, which contained KotDT comic strips....which hadn't been cleared for reprint rights.  Dave Kenzer got Hackmaster out of the bargain, years prior to the OGL/d20 license.
> 
> My memory is fuzzy, so I hope someone better informed corrects any errors I've made....
> 
> ...






Jolly_Blackburn said:


> Yes HM was a parody on the surface. Yes WotC made that a requirement of the license (and enforced it -- the approval process was quite strigent in fact).




The Knights of the Dinner Table comics that were originally published in the print Dragon Magazine, WotC republished them in the electronic archive of the magazine, without permission.  Not a malicious act, WotC thought they had the rights, as the electronic archive was an exact reproduction (albeit some crappy scanning) of the print magazines, but turns out they did not have the rights they thought they had.  (there were other publishers and artists affected, but it's KenzerCo that is relevant to the discussion)

Not sure if KenzerCo sued or if simply a settlement was reached, but WotC couldn't undo what they had done . . . so KenzerCo got some sweet licensing deals in exchange.  They got to publish a d20 version of their Kalamar setting with the D&D logo nice and pretty on the front covers, and they got the license to create a retroclone of AD&D (not that we used the word "retroclone" back then, I think HackMaster might have been the first!)

As Mr. Blackburn points out above, the AD&D license was allowed as a parody game, which fit well with what HackMaster was in the comics, a parody of AD&D (mostly, also a parody of fantasy RPGs in general, but mostly AD&D).  On the outside, it seemed KenzerCo made a very smart move with the two licenses, although only someone on the inside could tell us if the move was ultimately profitable and worthwhile for them.  But they were not "required" to take the license, they could have designed a standalone HackMaster instead of creating the AD&D parody we got.  But, in taking the license, it was agreed that the game would be a parody.

And again, I'm glad they did.  I never got to play the "original" HackMaster, but friends did and loved it, and I read through some of the books and was impressed, and I thought the parody modules were hilarious (yet, again, completely playable).

I assume that the license was not to infinity, and has expired.  I imagine that KenzerCo could have revamped HackMaster, leaving it a parody retroclone of AD&D, as there are so many other retroclones out there.  But perhaps not, as the game was so closely tied to the license and the AD&D IP.

They choose to keep the brand, but with a completely new game system that stands apart from D&D, and apparently it's a very good game and has some very pleased and loyal fans.  It's no longer a complete parody, but apparently still has some parody/humor elements in the "fluff" (I'm thinking the Gary Jackson stuff mentioned upthread).

Personally, I find it an odd choice to drastically rework a brand rather than starting fresh . . . but perhaps the resulting confusion amongst some gamers is worth it to keep the capital of the brand, of HackMaster.  But still, I don't think that anyone, designers or fans, should be all that surprised if the game retains the perception of parody long after leaving the "old" game rules behind.

*EDIT: * I'll add that I assume that, as most jokes, the parody element had gone a bit stale after a time (not due to poor design, just simply the humor becoming an "old joke"), and that many fans played the game quite seriously as a retroclone of AD&D and jettisoning the parody.


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## Jolly_Blackburn (Aug 16, 2012)

well... that's the popular internet version anyway. 2 parts truth. 1 part speculation.

 But it's not important enough for me to delve into those waters. Water under the bridge. I'll simply point out that the DVD situation was pointed out to TSR several times before it was released. Those warnings were ignored for whatever reason by their lawyers.

Our license was for six years I believe -- we knew going in there was an expiry date. For us (the designers) the game was always serious/gritty. The humor was there of course -- but we played HM like many of our fans did -- like your typical AD&D campaign.

So HM New Edition didn't require any much of a mindset change. We simply stripped away some of the 'silly' that was forced on the game began rebuilding. Again I don't mind some folks think it's a joke game. Our core audience 'gets it' and they've been pretty good about spreading the word. We're content to win over new players -- one at time if need be. 

And no -- not surprised at all some people still confuse HM New Edition with HM 4e. I'm cool with it. Happy to answer questions for those interested enough to learn more. But I don't have any particular problem with anyone who isn't interested either. Just how it goes.


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## Face (Aug 16, 2012)

There really isn't any parody in the current HackMaster.  Some Garyspeak, yes....but I wouldn't call it parody.....

...and by Garyspeak, I mean Gary Jackson.


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## Jolly_Blackburn (Aug 16, 2012)

Just wanted to add that despite the backstory to how the HM/AD&D license came about we had a very good relatioship with WOTC.  Besides HM we were doing the D&D comic D&D branded campaign setting material (Kingdoms of Kalamar) etc. Which meant LOTS of conversations/meetings to move product through the review process. Hardest part of it all as I recall was the fact there seemed to be a constant turn over in employees on WOTC's end and we found ourselves dealing with new faces (some of which handled the process differently).

I can recall only a few products that were troublesome as far as getting them approved. Greyhack being one of them. We ended up abandoning that one because the approval process was taking too long and the license was nearing its end.

Otherwise they did a great job working with us on approving product.


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## Jolly_Blackburn (Aug 16, 2012)

Dire Bare said:


> IMO, HackMaster didn't suffer from being a parody game.  As others have pointed out, it was pretty much AD&D with all the rules, and the parody was well done and done with love.  You could have stripped out all of the parody, and been left with a very playable retroclone of AD&D.




I agree 100%. The parody got a LOT of people to pick up the game. We were using the tagline "Who says "Old School" is dead afterall and going after those who felt disenfranchised by the changes in D&D 3e. The parody covers of the original 1E books pushed buttons.

Once the bait was taken it was hoped the reader would discover the fully playable game within. Personally I think it worked out extremely well. 

The "It's just a 'joke game'" line only became annoying because those tossing it about back in the day seemed to be implying it wasn't a game meant to be played. Which of course wasn't true. So it tends ruffle some folk's feathers when it tossed into a discussion and often gets the desired knee jerk reaction .


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## GeorgeFields (Aug 16, 2012)

Jolly_Blackburn said:


> The "It's just a 'joke game'" line only became annoying because those tossing it about back in the day seemed to be implying it wasn't a game meant to be played. Which of course wasn't true. So it tends ruffle some folk's feathers when it tossed into a discussion and often gets the desired knee jerk reaction .




A friend of mine actually said he preferred HackMaster be a joke game and not a real RPG.
He's missing out.


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## Dire Bare (Aug 17, 2012)

Jolly_Blackburn said:


> Besides HM we were doing the D&D comic




I'd forgotten about the comics, they were fun.  I collected them all except for the last set, which, if I remember, was a continuance of the first storyline KenzerCo released in their D&D comic line.  I had trouble finding out about the last storyline, then when I went looking for the issues, could never find them, and eventually gave up.  I still have the other comics in a box somewhere, I'll have to dig them out, give them a re-read, and then add them to my IDW D&D collection.

IDW has been republishing earlier D&D comics by Marvel and also Devil's Due, I hope they have the rights to republish the KenzerCo run also, I'd love to get the issues I'm missing, and perhaps the graphic novel treatment on the various storylines.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Aug 17, 2012)

Falstaff said:


> No need to register or add to cart. Scroll about half-way down the page and there's a link to the PDF.
> 
> Kenzer & Company




Oh man, thanks! I missed that.


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## kitsune9 (Aug 17, 2012)

I read the combat example (which I really enjoy detailed combat examples because it serves as a great way to see how the game flows). While I liked the interesting mechanics threshold of pain, defense for counter attack, etc, I found it to be a bit too much. I think the penetrating die rolls should be flat die rolls without the -1 to be added to future rolls. I think determining how many seconds a combatant is out because of pain from the damage they took (after armor is applied) should be a flat number instead of the math (you took 8 points of damage, you're out for 8 seconds or you're out a flat 10 seconds, etc).

I can see myself borrowing or playing with mechanics like this, but I wouldn't be able to sell my group on it.


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## GeorgeFields (Aug 17, 2012)

kitsune9 said:


> I think the penetrating die rolls should be flat die rolls without the -1 to be added to future rolls.




The only problem with that is the highest number on a die isn't a possible result.

If you roll a 6 on d6p, rolling a one for the second roll would result in a '7' instead of a 6.


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## Hard8Staff (Aug 20, 2012)

kitsune9 said:


> I read the combat example (which I really enjoy detailed combat examples because it serves as a great way to see how the game flows). While I liked the interesting mechanics threshold of pain, defense for counter attack, etc, I found it to be a bit too much. I think the penetrating die rolls should be flat die rolls without the -1 to be added to future rolls. I think determining how many seconds a combatant is out because of pain from the damage they took (after armor is applied) should be a flat number instead of the math (you took 8 points of damage, you're out for 8 seconds or you're out a flat 10 seconds, etc).
> 
> I can see myself borrowing or playing with mechanics like this, but I wouldn't be able to sell my group on it.




the feedback we get constantly is despite all the 'added' elements, it still plays faster than the other popular games.  it reads more complicated than it plays (while there's a lot going on, it's intuitive and after two sessions, combat speeds to levels seen only by diceless gamers)


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## Ampolitor (Aug 21, 2012)

*ouch*

Man I love hackmaster but HOLY COW 60 bucks for the players handbook, wow thats going to hurt the wallet!


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## griffonwing (Aug 21, 2012)

Ampolitor said:


> Man I love hackmaster but HOLY COW 60 bucks for the players handbook, wow thats going to hurt the wallet!




Yeah, it is a good chunk. However, you get 400 pages of (i believe) 10pt font, a plethora of optional crunch, fake leather binding, 4.5 pounds of full color goodness. This book is on par with, and even surpases, some of the 100+ dollar special collectors edition books that other companies produce.

Im not a shill for the company. However, I am a fan of the game. Anyway, I play this game and Pathfinder, and I only play PF because of an ongoing campaign.


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## GeorgeFields (Aug 21, 2012)

Yeah, the book isn't cheap; but it's high quality in production and content.

HackMaster Basic Plus pdf is available for anyone that's gone through the free basic pdf and wants a little more without dropping the cash for the full PH.

It contains the character creation rules along with new equipment and advancement rules up to level 10.

HackMaster Basic Plus


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## Nikosandros (Aug 21, 2012)

GeoFFields said:


> Yeah, the book isn't cheap; but it's high quality in production and content.
> 
> HackMaster Basic Plus pdf is available for anyone that's gone through the free basic pdf and wants a little more without dropping the cash for the full PH.
> 
> ...



So, this takes the place of the "old" HM Basic Revised?


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## KJSEvans (Aug 21, 2012)

Nikosandros said:


> So, this takes the place of the "old" HM Basic Revised?




It is similar, but with more details, than the free version of the HMb which was made available a month ago. Both HMb Free and HMb Plus have updated rules to put them more in line with the PHB.


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