# Charles Ryan (and others) out at WotC?



## Glyfair (Dec 1, 2005)

http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=19503

So, we've lost the brand manager for D&D?  

It's interesting in their "rebutting" any statements they are in trouble they mention their card games are doing well, but don't mention D&D or their book division (the two areas that lost their brand managers).  I'm not necessarily reading anything ominioius in that, but it is an odd ommision given who apparently was let go.


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## Akrasia (Dec 1, 2005)

In this day of double-speak, PR people say '...affected by this change and are no longer with Wizards...' instead of '... were fired'.   :\ 

I feel sorry for all those people.  Charles Ryan, in particular, was always quite decent about posting here and keeping people informed of his perspective on D&D's condition.  It's too bad WotC booted him.


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## MerricB (Dec 1, 2005)

Bizarre. Not sure what to think.

It's probably time for more threads of "the sky is falling".

However, in this case, they may well be right. Getting rid of so many top people does *not* bode well.


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## d20Dwarf (Dec 1, 2005)

Well, I guess it's good that they've added to their capability to stay flexible in the ever-changing hobby market...

...even if some of my friends got canned to improve the company.


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## MonsterMash (Dec 1, 2005)

_Latest Press Release from WotC_
New Setting: The Falling Sky announced today.

Always hate to see people lose their jobs.


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## The_Gunslinger658 (Dec 1, 2005)

Pretty rotten of hasbro to fire people during the holidays. Man, I'm so glad I switched from being a desk jockey to Heating and refrigeration repair. I can only fire myself nowadays.

Hope those guys are ok.



Scott


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## Glyfair (Dec 1, 2005)

Doomed Battalions said:
			
		

> Pretty rotten of hasbro to fire people during the holidays. Man, I'm so glad I switched from being a desk jockey to Heating and refrigeration repair. I can only fire myself nowadays.
> 
> Hope those guys are ok.




IIRC, the big layoff a couple of years ago was just before the holidays, too.  I think it's pretty traditional in the corporate world (preparing things for a new direction at the beginning of the next year).


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## BSF (Dec 2, 2005)

Merry Christmas - You are no longer needed here.  

Peter Archer is gone?  So what does this mean for the novel open calls?
Charles Ryan is gone and they say this is going to make them able to adapt better?  
Two VP's in Marketing?  

Kind of weird really.  And there are supposed to be 10 others that have been affected?  Any chance these are people that have been moved up into positions to replace those that are no longer with WotC?  Otherwise this really does look rather gloomy.


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## diaglo (Dec 2, 2005)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> IIRC, the big layoff a couple of years ago was just before the holidays, too.  I think it's pretty traditional in the corporate world (preparing things for a new direction at the beginning of the next year).



yup, the previous really big layoff was right before the holidays.

they give a severance package so it doesn't seem so bad... but the former employee has to stretch that until they get a new job.

mang, didn't see this one coming from all the news out of WotC. esp from Charles directly.

maybe it was the 100 fan post cards he sent me. i hope not.

and i'm sure he will find a job soon enough. some of the others cut besides Peter Archer... weren't very big on interaction with their customers.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 2, 2005)

Just as D&D was vamping its marketing operations up and up.

I wonder who the new Brand Manager is gonna be?


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## scourger (Dec 2, 2005)

I hate to see people affected by change and no longer with the company; but my hobby gaming has seen some changing trends lately, and I'd like to see some rapid adaptation to let D&D be part of it again.


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Dec 2, 2005)

Their silence about D&D seems rather bad especially since the firings included Charles Ryan.


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## MrFilthyIke (Dec 2, 2005)

gamingreport said:
			
		

> Nelson went on to express that in no way do these changes represent that Wizards of the Coast is in trouble; "Magic is still number 1 and Duel Masters is exceeding expectations in Japan".




Maybe that old thread about 4E having collectible cards is not TOO far off...


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## Bullgrit (Dec 2, 2005)

Just to give another side (possibility) to the "bad to be laid off on the holidays" concept:

Sometimes the company does it to be nice. If they are giving a good severance package, instead of making the folks work through the holiday season (not knowing what's coming right after), the company lets them go to be with their families during the season with pay (severance).

Bullgrit


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## jgbrowning (Dec 2, 2005)

FATDRAGONGAMES said:
			
		

> Their silence about D&D seems rather bad especially since the firings included Charles Ryan.




It looks like someone "leaked" the information to gamingreport and then WotC was put on the spot to come up with something to say.

I may be wrong, but I imagine there is a longer statement forthcoming....

joe b.


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## DreadPirateMurphy (Dec 2, 2005)

Completely unexpected news like this is never well received, and with good reason.  There is no way to anticipate what is going to happen next.  I hope that WotC has the sense to offer some kind of information to their customers explaining the situation better than, "no comment."

Sorry for the folks who lost their jobs.  That almost always sucks.


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## Umbran (Dec 2, 2005)

Darn it, Charles Ryan seemed a pretty good egg.  If he had to go, I'm hoping it was at least a mutual decision.


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## pogre (Dec 2, 2005)

Resurrect Chameleon Eclectic and sign me up for one of everything!


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## coyote6 (Dec 2, 2005)

I think the most worrying thing is MerricB saying it doesn't bode well.


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## ZombieButch (Dec 2, 2005)

Bullgrit said:
			
		

> Just to give another side (possibility) to the "bad to be laid off on the holidays" concept:
> 
> Sometimes the company does it to be nice. If they are giving a good severance package, instead of making the folks work through the holiday season (not knowing what's coming right after), the company lets them go to be with their families during the season with pay (severance).
> 
> Bullgrit




I can't speak for anyone but myself on this one, but as someone who's had to lay people off for a variety of reasons, and been laid off myself when our branch was sold off and shut down, I don't think that even entered into it. 

I imagine most folks would have a much more enjoyable holiday if they were still employed and not worried about whether or not they were going to be able to pay the bills in January. Severance is nice and all, but it is no replacement for a steady paycheck.


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## DaveMage (Dec 2, 2005)

I wonder who are the other 10 people that were affected.

Sad news.


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## Psion (Dec 2, 2005)

This concerns me. Under Charles Ryans watch, it seem like they were trying to bring D&D to a wider audience for the first time under WotC. Charles was a gaming creative sort from a ways back. Now can we expect some suit with an MBA to step in and sap the creative life out of the game.



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> Darn it, Charles Ryan seemed a pretty good egg.  If he had to go, I'm hoping it was at least a mutual decision.




Considering the number of people let go, I doubt that.


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## Psion (Dec 2, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I wonder who are the other 10 people that were affected.




Apparently one of them is Michelle Lyons.


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## d20Dwarf (Dec 2, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Apparently one of them is Michelle Lyons.




This is correct.


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## Shemeska (Dec 2, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Apparently one of them is Michelle Lyons.




So she said, but I thought that she was freelance, and not on staff. What position did she hold?


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## KB9JMQ (Dec 2, 2005)

Well that sucks. I liked that Mr. Ryan was a pretty frequent poster here.
I hope they all do well in the future.


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## heirodule (Dec 2, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Just as D&D was vamping its marketing operations up and up.




Right, which makes me suspicious that those efforts were not seen as paying off.

Does anyone think WotC saw any growth in D&D that could be attributed to marketing?

---
Update after reading the article: 

Um, yeah: 2 marketing guys, and a brand manager (also marketing) and the developer of a game that my guess is that it is going nowhere (hecatomb).

So what's the "changing trend"? D&D has reached saturation, and addtional efforts are simply too marginal?


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## kenobi65 (Dec 2, 2005)

Well, carp in a hat.

Guess I'm glad I didn't get that job as WotC's Director of Market Research, after all...


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## Mark CMG (Dec 2, 2005)

Bad news for those 15 and I'll keep a good thought for them over the holidays.  Since we know the brands are doing well enough, I wonder what caused the shake up?  The 2006 releases seem to suggest business as usual, don't they?  The layoffs cross a number of lines so I wonder if there was a budget cut directive from above?  It's been said that most of Hasbro's brands/properties are seasonal assets (ramping up toward the end of the year through the holidays and then dropping back way down around now, after everything has shipped out to stores).  I wonder how this effects decisions to layoff people right around this time of year?


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## Turjan (Dec 2, 2005)

Good luck for those 15 fellows!



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> So she said, but I thought that she was freelance, and not on staff. What position did she hold?



I heard mostly editing and some design stuff.


			
				heirodule said:
			
		

> Right, which makes me suspicious that those efforts were not seen as paying off.
> 
> Does anyone think WotC saw any growth in D&D that could be attributed to marketing?



Didn't they just start with their new efforts? I suppose it's too early to tell.


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## Kanegrundar (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm not going to comment on the sky falling or any other doom and gloom gaming-wise since a good man (likely several, but Charles is the only one I knew of off that list) lost his job today.  

Good luck, Charles.  I'm sure you'll land on your feet.  Thanks for keeping in touch with us fans.

Kane


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 2, 2005)

Y'know, something tells me this relates to the recent descision to separate M:tG's advertising department from D&D's as mentioned a while back. Wasn't there something about them being handled by another company?

Don't really need a brand manager when they hire a specialist to manage their brand for them...

Still, can't imagine having a specialist who doesn't know D&D doing any better than the job that Mr. Ryan did over there 'till recently....

C'est le vive, I suppose. I'm not going to say anything gloom-n-doom about D&D in general. I don't think it's warranted. But they *have* been in a slumpish way post 3.5, in general. I think the re-release of some material affected the buying market, driving some to other purchases, driving others away from buying altogether. I see that getting better, but regardless, the company sees not as much dinero and they're going to take some step or another to rectify the problem, even if it's ultimately not a corporate concern.

Anyway, now I'm conspiracy theorizing. I wish 'em well. I'm confident they all did good work and will be doing good work wherever they go next.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 2, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Y'know, something tells me this relates to the recent descision to separate M:tG's advertising department from D&D's as mentioned a while back. Wasn't there something about them being handled by another company?




Actually, that announcement was that MtG and D&D were going to use two different public relations agencies, IIRC.  And, most companies of that size do hire outside agencies to handle PR (even if they also have internal PR departments).


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## Pramas (Dec 2, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> So she said, but I thought that she was freelance, and not on staff. What position did she hold?




Michelle was on staff as an editor. She moved out here last year with family in tow to take the job.


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## Nikchick (Dec 2, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> So she said, but I thought that she was freelance, and not on staff. What position did she hold?




Curse you, Pramas!  


Um, so Pramas and I just said the same thing.  Allow me to say: "What he said."


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 2, 2005)

Pramas said:
			
		

> Michelle was on staff as an editor. She moved out here last year with family in tow to take the job.




That just stucks.

Looks like WOTC pulled a G4 move.....thats dispicable. I hope her and her family is ok.


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## Steel_Wind (Dec 2, 2005)

Looking at the seniority of the people axed from WotC, I think this looks like a pure salary dump.

In a shrinking market perceived to be in a cyclical downturn, a public company dumps its higher salaried folks perceiving that they have got their best out of them. Time to dig in and await an uptick without having to pay the salaries in the meanwhile.

Cynical and mean spirited move - but not original. This appears to be short term management and budget cutting.  In a public company, it is, sadly, par for the course.

I guess the twitch reaction is to wish that WotC would just let the D&D brand and IP go.  Sell it off to someone who will make it their core business and not an afterthought. (I would sooooo love Elevation/Bioware/Pandemic to buy the D&D brand and WotC/TSR IP! Though they would not make it their core business either....)

That said, there are excellent products being turned out by WotC right now. We have a smorgasbord of rules supplements, tons o' miniatures and even a perceived move towards more adventures.

Paizo seems to be making a real go of it. _Dungeon_'s sale continues to pay dividends to the hardcore hobbyists and even _Dragon_ is starting to turn around.

So...while it may suck to be a game retailer right now , or a publisher, or a former employee of WotC - I'm not sure that those of us on the consuming end of things have ever had it better.


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## BSF (Dec 2, 2005)

Pramas said:
			
		

> Michelle was on staff as an editor. She moved out here last year with family in tow to take the job.




Any chance they are eliminating the position and planning to outsource it back as a freelance gig?  It's not quite the same thing, but better than being completely tossed out the door...


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## Turjan (Dec 2, 2005)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Any chance they are eliminating the position and planning to outsource it back as a freelance gig?  It's not quite the same thing, but better than being completely tossed out the door...



I think she would have mentioned something like that when she said she'd been sacked.


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## Nikchick (Dec 2, 2005)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Any chance they are eliminating the position and planning to outsource it back as a freelance gig?  It's not quite the same thing, but better than being completely tossed out the door...




Because of the Microsoft Permatemp lawsuits, I think they're prevented from laying someone off and then turning around and hiring them back as a "contractor" to do the same job.


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## Banshee16 (Dec 2, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Bizarre. Not sure what to think.
> 
> It's probably time for more threads of "the sky is falling".
> 
> However, in this case, they may well be right. Getting rid of so many top people does *not* bode well.




Especially when 2 of the 5 are your senior vp and vp of marketing.  Sales aren't where they should be at, maybe?

And brand manager of a product line...

Banshee


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## wingsandsword (Dec 2, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Looking at the seniority of the people axed from WotC, I think this looks like a pure salary dump.



I'll second that.  Unless they are dumping D&D outright or having a major restructuring of how they work, they really can't do without a D&D Brand Manager, so cutting Charles Ryan in favor of a more junior replacement could be a purely cost-saving move.  It's mercenary and cold, but it's something a very cutthroat large corporation like Hasbro would do.

It's been WotC's style if you look back, to fire longtime employees (who go on to success in the d20 market) and bring in newer, presumably cheaper, employees.  How many Brand Managers has WotC gone through since 3e, isn't Ryan the 3rd in 5 years?  How often has WotC announced layoffs?



> So...while it may suck to be a game retailer right now , or a publisher, or a former employee of WotC - I'm not sure that those of us on the consuming end of things have ever had it better.



This I'll also agree with.  All the "grim future of gaming" threads seem to quickly polarize into two sides, one which sees things as brighter than ever, once that sees everything in shambles, and I think this is why.  A consumer of RPG's has a huge variety of games to choose from, with loads of settings, high production values and an abundance of suppliments.  It's easier to use minis in your game than ever before, and the internet makes finding new gamers and discussing your games far easier.  Things on the other end of things are feeling the crunch from a slow economy, the burst of the "d20 bubble", and a market that is very dominated by D&D.  

No matter how good it gets, people will complain it could be better, and no matter how bad it gets there will always been some hopeful gamer who will stake it all on a start-up company to make some games and hope to break even at it all.


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## CharlesRyan (Dec 2, 2005)

Hello, everybody.

Just thought I'd stop by and confirm what you've already heard. Today was my last day with Wizards of the Coast. Although I will still be active on these boards and in the D&D community, I am no longer a spokesman for D&D or WotC.

Please don't be too hasty to draw conclusions about the health of D&D from this turn of events. Wizards of the Coast is a large company with a dozen or so brands and major business operations on every continent. The company operates very much as a team, and in that environment, a single brand can be affected by the fortunes of other brands, even when it's doing well.

I'm sad to no longer be involved professionally with D&D. I'm very proud of my accomplishments during my tenure as Brand Manager (and as a member of the R&D team before that). This has been a very exciting two years for the D&D brand, and though I'm sorry not to continue participating in D&D's future, I'm honored to have had the opportunity that I did to lead D&D's fortunes during two very exciting years.

My wife and I are expecting our second child soon, and I'm looking forward to spending a lot of time with my family over the next few weeks. I don't yet know where I'll go from there, but I can tell you this: I will always be a diehard gamer and an outspoken fan of D&D!


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## Napftor (Dec 2, 2005)

Thanks for serving as conductor on the D&D train, Mr. Ryan.  We'll see you around.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Dec 2, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Hello, everybody.
> 
> Just thought I'd stop by and confirm what you've already heard. Today was my last day with Wizards of the Coast. Although I will still be active on these boards and in the D&D community, I am no longer a spokesman for D&D or WotC.
> 
> ...




I'm sorry to hear this.  Even though I don't play 3.e and buy no Wizards products I can sympathise with losing ones job during the holidays.   Anyone who says it can be a blessing has never been canned right before Christmas.   Good Luck and hopefully you land a high paying position somewhere.


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## Aris Dragonborn (Dec 2, 2005)

Condolences on your job, and congratulations on your forthcoming blessing. 

Keep your chin up, Charles. Maybe you can get another job in the area *cough*Green Ronin*cough*


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 2, 2005)

My sympathy and support to you, Mr. Ryan, and to you, Mrs. Lyons, and all of the rest of you who lost your jobs.

  Edena_of_Neith


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## BSF (Dec 2, 2005)

Mr Ryan,
Good luck on finding a job to replace the one you have lost.  Congratulations on the upcoming addition to your family.  Kids are great.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm he'll have no trouble finding work with nearly any big d20 company.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 2, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> I'm very proud of my accomplishments during my tenure as Brand Manager (and as a member of the R&D team before that). This has been a very exciting two years for the D&D brand, and though I'm sorry not to continue participating in D&D's future, I'm honored to have had the opportunity that I did to lead D&D's fortunes during two very exciting years.




You did good Charles, and it was an honor working with you. I'm sorry Hasbro gave you the shaft, but hey, my lack of trust in them as an employer is about 80% of why I chose to leave. Good luck. I hope we haven't seen the last of you in RPGs.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 2, 2005)

I wish you all well.
  I just wish the news was not so sad.  

  You are very fine people.  You are very hard working people.  And you are very creative people.
  I have bought many thousands of dollars of your products, and just bought more today.  If I can't honor your work in any other way, I can do it by buying your products.
  You are great authors.  I have a library of your books.  I've read and reread them.  If I cannot otherwise honor your imagination and effort (and god knows, it takes effort) to be game publishers and book writers, I CAN honor these things by buying and reading your works.
  I do, and I did, and I think you write great stuff.

  Your game has enriched my life, and your products have been (and still are) a source of joy.
  I will go on being willing to spend my time (my most precious commodity) and my energy, and my money, on your products.
  I appreciate your hard work and effort.  My hat is off to you.

  To all of you, I salute you.

  Edena_of_Neith


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## Truth Seeker (Dec 2, 2005)

Maybe as a temporary position:  *Rich Redman*/Assistant Brand Manager. Who I met personally at Gen Con this year.



			
				BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Just as D&D was vamping its marketing operations up and up.
> 
> I wonder who the new Brand Manager is gonna be?


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 2, 2005)

I've hung out with him at Gencon, I think it was the first So-Cal. He's a nice guy. I think he was hired BACK a few months ago. Left TGM to get the job too.


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## Truth Seeker (Dec 2, 2005)

This might be a prelude to the layoffs...*WotC Taps Two Agencies*. With this, the need for a Marketing arm inhouse, is now moot.



			
				Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Bad news for those 15 and I'll keep a good thought for them over the holidays.  Since we know the brands are doing well enough, I wonder what caused the shake up?  The 2006 releases seem to suggest business as usual, don't they?  The layoffs cross a number of lines so I wonder if there was a budget cut directive from above?  It's been said that most of Hasbro's brands/properties are seasonal assets (ramping up toward the end of the year through the holidays and then dropping back way down around now, after everything has shipped out to stores).  I wonder how this effects decisions to layoff people right around this time of year?


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## Truth Seeker (Dec 2, 2005)

Well, with the other *no-named* mention 15 employees, it is possible also, that he might be in there too.

p.s. My own goodbye in the Wotc Forums.



			
				BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I've hung out with him at Gencon, I think it was the first So-Cal. He's a nice guy. I think he was hired BACK a few months ago. Left TGM to get the job too.


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 2, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Hello, everybody.
> 
> Just thought I'd stop by and confirm what you've already heard. Today was my last day with Wizards of the Coast. Although I will still be active on these boards and in the D&D community, I am no longer a spokesman for D&D or WotC.




Very sorry to hear the bad news Charles, I hope that you can find employment quickly. Best of luck with child #2 too.

Regards,
Alex
aka


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## MonsterMash (Dec 2, 2005)

Charles,

best of luck with the job search and best wishes for the new arrival.


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## diaglo (Dec 2, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Hello, everybody.
> 
> Just thought I'd stop by and confirm what you've already heard. Today was my last day with Wizards of the Coast. Although I will still be active on these boards and in the D&D community, I am no longer a spokesman for D&D or WotC.
> 
> ...




Good luck with the job search. Sad to see you go. But also glad you will continue gaming. And congrats on the new bun in the oven.


Game On,

David "diaglo" Temporado

P.S. I'll always treasure the fan post cards you sent me.... well at least until i can get a good price for them on ebay.


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## BWP (Dec 2, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Wizards of the Coast is a large company with a dozen or so brands and major business operations on every continent.




Just curious: where is the Antarctica office of WOTC located, exactly?   

(I can well believe that people currently living there would play a lot of stuff like *M:tG* and *D&D*, though!)


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## Bobitron (Dec 2, 2005)

Best wishes to all those involved in the cuts. Never in easy thing to have happen, even in the best of times.


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## Henry (Dec 2, 2005)

BWP said:
			
		

> Just curious: where is the Antarctica office of WOTC located, exactly?




Look on the bright side, Charles, you just escaped a bullet! 

Best wishes with the new job search and the family addition.


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## Belen (Dec 2, 2005)

Charles:  I am very sorry to see you go.  I hope that your job hunt goes well.  Please keep us in the loop.


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## Belen (Dec 2, 2005)

I think Hecatomb had a major negative impact at Wizards. I have at least two stores that are literally giving it away as prizes because no one will buy it. Wizards made a huge push with this "adult" game and I do not think it has done too well. The game play really stinks and the cards are very difficult to shuffle.

The stores in my area are having the same problem with the Axis and Allies minis game. I know at least one store that has given away an entire case of starters and boosters because no one wants it. Wizards made a huge mistake in not making it to the same scale as the DDM and SWM lines. A lot of people would have loved to use the figs for a modern game.

I have seen no real decline in Magic sales in my area, but I could see how their model could get old.  The game has grown ever more complicated over time and it is dominated by people who have played for years.


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## Henry (Dec 2, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I think Hecatomb had a major negative impact at Wizards. I have at least two stores that are literally giving it away as prizes because no one will buy it.




It may be a localized thing. Around here, I have a friend who is really into this game, and he has a few friends who play it with them. They're buying up cards like gangbusters.

I second the Axis and Allies. I don't know who may be using it in this area, but the fact that it's not built for 28mm scale has totally mixed any desire for me to buy them.


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## diaglo (Dec 2, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> It may be a localized thing. Around here, I have a friend who is really into this game, and he has a few friends who play it with them. They're buying up cards like gangbusters.
> 
> I second the Axis and Allies. I don't know who may be using it in this area, but the fact that it's not built for 28mm scale has totally mixed any desire for me to buy them.



don't even see the Hecatomb stuff near me at all. i don't know if the retailers even bought any. it ain't advertised in any of the stores i visit.

ditto on the A&A comments from both of you.


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## DaveMage (Dec 2, 2005)

Pramas said:
			
		

> Michelle was on staff as an editor. She moved out here last year with family in tow to take the job.




I thought that was the case.

I think I remember her posting about it...

I hope she and all the others land quickly on their feet and find something they like.


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## WizarDru (Dec 2, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> The stores in my area are having the same problem with the Axis and Allies minis game. I know at least one store that has given away an entire case of starters and boosters because no one wants it. Wizards made a huge mistake in not making it to the same scale as the DDM and SWM lines. A lot of people would have loved to use the figs for a modern game.
> 
> I have seen no real decline in Magic sales in my area, but I could see how their model could get old.  The game has grown ever more complicated over time and it is dominated by people who have played for years.




The stores in my area are selling A&A minis pretty strongly, complete with a weekly league.  I've never even SEEN Hecatomb in stock at any of them.  Hecatomb strikes me like Gloom, with cards that are difficult to play with and too gimmicky for my tastes...plus I found the artwork and concept just unappealing.  I mean, "Mister Bananas" versus "Greater Shoggoth"?  Not for me, thanks.

I do note that A&A's first expansion, The Russian Front, is due out soon.  I suspect that A&A minis aren't selling like Magic...but then, these days, _Magic_ doesn't sell like Magic.  I got in on the ground floor, and I've watched it wax and wane over the last dozen years or so.  Magic, like Pokemon, stabilized well below it's peak some time ago. 

One tends to wonder if WotC's various licensed games might have been a factor (such as Xaolin Showdown, Neopets, Kids Next Door, Star Sisterz and Duel Masters).


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## ukgpublishing (Dec 2, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> I hope that WotC has the sense to offer some kind of information to their customers explaining the situation better than, "no comment."




well it looks to me as if Hasbro Worldwide is catching up with Hasbro UK and Europe over here we saw them lay off nearly all the staff leaving just 3 wotc employees on the magic brand line and replacing everything else with Hasbro staff. Then they got rid of carl crook as the brand manager leaving 2. 
corparate mentality leaves little to be desired from an employee point of view, however best of luck to charles and if he wants to do a little independant work promoting our products on a commision basis in the USA, he is always welcome to write. Although I don't think we pay enough.

Kevin for UKG Publishing


----------



## Kanegrundar (Dec 2, 2005)

You're a good man, Charles.  I'm sorry about your job.  You and your family will be in my thoughts this holiday season.  I have no doubt that you'll land on your feet.


----------



## Belen (Dec 2, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> One tends to wonder if WotC's various licensed games might have been a factor (such as Xaolin Showdown, Neopets, Kids Next Door, Star Sisterz and Duel Masters).




One would think that innovating a new game would be better than a license.  However, Hecatomb shows that mistake.

Just remember, just because an expansion is being released does not mean the line is doing well.  They probably had it in production months ago.  They will want to make some money off it even if they decide to cancel the game.


----------



## King_Stannis (Dec 2, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> My wife and I are expecting our second child soon, and I'm looking forward to spending a lot of time with my family over the next few weeks. I don't yet know where I'll go from there, but I can tell you this: I will always be a diehard gamer and an outspoken fan of D&D!




You, sir, are a class act. Best of luck to you.


----------



## Aeson (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm taking collections to buy the DD property from WoTC. Anyone wish to donate?

Also if the marketing guys are gone does that mean the lame commercial they have on the site will go away also?


----------



## Ghostwind (Dec 2, 2005)

Wow. Wotc has one heck of a track record concerning December layoffs. In terms of "quality" of manpower downsized, this one cuts as deep if not more than the one a couple of years ago. I hope that those affected are able to find employment that not only matches what they were making (if not more), but also makes them equally happy.


----------



## Mercule (Dec 2, 2005)

Thanks for the note, Mr. Ryan.  I hope things work out well for you.  I was canned about this time of year in 2002, while my wife was pregnant, so I understand the stress.

I'll say that I think the books that have come out under your watch have been some of the best ever for D&D.


----------



## Eridanis (Dec 2, 2005)

My wife is days away from giving birth, and if I was fired today, I'd be scared out of my mind ab out what would happen. You're certainly handling it with savior-faire; good on ya!

Best of luck, and don't be a stranger here on the boards!


----------



## Steel_Wind (Dec 2, 2005)

Hasbro is in the toy business. For the most part, by the beginning of December, their manufacturing business cycle is over for the year.

There is a nasty bit of business left with _selling_  the toys to the consumer at a retail level, yes, but that's mostly a Wal-Mart, Target and Toys 'R Us' gig. From a manufacturer's perspective, the decisions have been made, the marketing plan in place and bought and paid for,  the product manufactured and shipped (maybe with some residual product en route) and it's all over but the cryin'. Their "work" is done.

From that perspective, it's a perfectly reasonable time for lay-offs.

From the perspective of a human being in North America/Europe  expecting the Christmas season - more or less that focal event in which we tick off the years of our lives - it must truly hurt.


----------



## kenobi65 (Dec 2, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> This might be a prelude to the layoffs...*WotC Taps Two Agencies*. With this, the need for a Marketing arm inhouse, is now moot.




Highly unlikely, IMO.  Having worked in marketing and advertising for 16 years, in my experience, a PR agency is *not*, in any way, a substitute for an actual marketing department.  PR is only one of about a half-dozen functions that report to marketing.  (And, as I noted before, nearly every large company retains an external PR agency.)

All that story really said is that WotC used to only have one PR agency under retainer, for both D&D and M:tG, and now they're going with two different ones.


----------



## qstor (Dec 2, 2005)

Nikchick said:
			
		

> Because of the Microsoft Permatemp lawsuits, I think they're prevented from laying someone off and then turning around and hiring them back as a "contractor" to do the same job.




Doesn't WOTC use former employees as freelancers though? Isn't that the same? Just wondering...

That sucks for them so close to the holidays..grumble grumble...Charles my thoughts are with you and your family!

Mike


----------



## Ghostwind (Dec 2, 2005)

When my wife was pregnant with our 2nd child, I was working for a company that was going through bankruptcy reorganization. One day we showed up to work to find out that the company had been bought in court by a competitor and that they had ordered the closing and termination of every employee and store location. 10,000+ people out of a job instantly. Talk about scared and concerned. Here I was with a 1 yr old and a soon to be born second child and no job prospects. It took several months, but I was finally able to find a full-time job. I can certainly relate to what those who lost their jobs yesterday are going through. Been there, done that. Got the T-shirt.


----------



## FATDRAGONGAMES (Dec 2, 2005)

Mr Ryan-

The books that have come out during your tenure have been some of the best WOTC has done. I sincerely believe you will find suitable employment very soon. best of luck to you and your family this holiday season!


----------



## Radiating Gnome (Dec 2, 2005)

Just one more voice in the chorus.  Charles, and the others too, thanks for all your hard work.  Good luck with future work, projects, and children.  

I had my own layoff/out of work experience a few months back, and it was LOADS of fun, let me tell you.  Our dog was happy -- Dad was home and she didn't have to spend all day in her kennel.  There's always a bright side.  

-john


----------



## Odhanan (Dec 2, 2005)

> So, we've lost the brand manager for D&D?




Puzzling, really. There could be a thousand reasons why some people were fired. Bottom line, we do not know what it is about, exactly.

My best wishes to the former employees. Hopefully, it will give them new opportunities in their lives.


----------



## painandgreed (Dec 2, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I think Hecatomb had a major negative impact at Wizards. I have at least two stores that are literally giving it away as prizes because no one will buy it. Wizards made a huge push with this "adult" game and I do not think it has done too well. The game play really stinks and the cards are very difficult to shuffle.
> 
> The stores in my area are having the same problem with the Axis and Allies minis game. I know at least one store that has given away an entire case of starters and boosters because no one wants it. Wizards made a huge mistake in not making it to the same scale as the DDM and SWM lines. A lot of people would have loved to use the figs for a modern game.




Well, I can't contest the Hecatomb comment. I know people who did some artwork for the game and have all the cards as well as a Lovecraftian fetish, and we just end up using the cards (commons anyway) as coasters for while we're playing D&D. So it comes to mind that something must be wrong with the game if they haven't got me to try and play it. Plus, I've never seen it at any of the local game stores.

As for A&A, I think it's a great game and has a place as the successor to AH's previous game Squad Leader. The scale is about right and even a little small for the type of game. The scale like D&D or SW for any sort of realistic wargame with tanks would be stupid. But in my personal opinion, collectable miniatures are just a wrong thing to try and sell to the target market which would probably be older wargamers. Even the D&D miniatures, although the game isn't that bad, I'll never end up shelling out money for random minis and have only played because a friend of mine will. If they came out in packages more like WH40k miniatures where I know what I'm getting and could buy what I need, I'd probably end up buying more.


----------



## buzz (Dec 2, 2005)

Well, this blows. I will add my voice to the chorus as well. Mr. Ryan, I wish you and your family the best. I'm certain that you will be a hot commodity in the d20 market.

Anyway, Monte Cook mentioned the following in another thread:


			
				Monte Cook said:
			
		

> However, from what I understand, it was Magic's sales that were strikingly bad, not D&D's.
> 
> This wouldn't be the first time that people working on D&D got laid off because WotC's larger brands suffered. (It happened right after the launch of 3E, when arguably D&D sales were better than they had been in about 20 years.) It looks to me like higher-end middle managers across the board got the axe.



Stupid CCGs! 

I would also tend to agree with those who've mentioned the "fire the high-salary folk and replace them with junior staff" idea. I've been there; it's pretty damn common these days.  :\


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 2, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> Well, this blows. I will add my voice to the chorus as well. Mr. Ryan, I wish you and your family the best. I'm certain that you will be a hot commodity in the d20 market.
> 
> Anyway, Monte Cook mentioned the following in another thread:
> 
> ...





My experiences in the Great Dot-Com Crash of 2000 have taught me that holiday layofss suck major butt, regardless of the severence package. Nothing can replace the peace of mind of knowing you have a steady income coming in.

My own experiences with Hasbro/WotC vs TSR have shown me that, although TSR was far from perfect, they seemed to have a greater degree of humanity and loyalty. At least that's how it was for me.

In regards to the "fire the high-salary folk, etc." tactic, there's a small part of me that wonders if the same tactic is/has been used on the older freelancers. I've been fuming lately about the fact that I wasn't tapped to contribute even a single lousy paragraph in the upcoming Secrets of the Moonsea, since I wrote the 2nd Ed AD&D Moonsea supplement, and have always been led to believe that it was a solid, decent entry into the FR canon. My lovely wife, while understanding my irritation, asked me to name any other freelancers who were my contemporaries who also no longer seem to get much work from the D&D folk, and are now working for other companies. I have to admit, she has a point. 

To Charles: Very sorry to hear about the news. It sucks royally. Here's hoping you get something good in the very near future, and your family's enjoyment of the holidays doesn't get diminished.


----------



## WizarDru (Dec 2, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> One would think that innovating a new game would be better than a license.  However, Hecatomb shows that mistake.
> 
> Just remember, just because an expansion is being released does not mean the line is doing well.  They probably had it in production months ago.  They will want to make some money off it even if they decide to cancel the game.




Well, one might think that.  But I have no idea how it works.  If Warner Brothers paid a chunk of money for WotC to develop games like XS and KND, then it's a much smaller risk than Hecatomb is/was.  I'll be honest here, I was unaware that Hecatomb was even a WotC product until this thread.  I'd seen some ads, but knew little about it, other than I didn't like the look of it.  So I'm not suprised it's not selling; I mean, it's not like I don't get Dungeon and Dragon every month, or read the postings and previews here at ENworld.  And if I don't know or care that much, I'm guessing that it's true for many others, as well.  That, and like Gloom, I don't like the card design...even without having played the game.

I didn't mean to imply that the expansion meant they were successful; I realize that this sort of thing would have to have been in production for some time (and it's only been 4 months since the game came out).  Individual store anecdotes obviously vary, obiously.  Here in the Philly area, I see them all over the place, and they're clearly selling.  Which doesn't prove anything, other than you and I are seeing different trends at different stores.  The only way we'll know if they're actually sucessful is if another expansion (set III) were to come out...then we could infer it hadn't failed, at least.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 2, 2005)

I just hope MLB Showdown never goes away. I love that CCG!


----------



## WizarDru (Dec 2, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> My own experiences with Hasbro/WotC vs TSR have shown me that, although TSR was far from perfect, they seemed to have a greater degree of humanity and loyalty. At least that's how it was for me.




Just curious, was this before or during the Lorraine Years?


----------



## Kanegrundar (Dec 2, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> I just hope MLB Showdown never goes away. I love that CCG!



 I've seen the ads on WotC's website, but I've never seen it for sale.  If it's good, I may have to look into it.  Granted, Strat-O-Matic Baseball will likely always be my baseball game of choice.  I love Strat!


----------



## romp (Dec 2, 2005)

put me in the "cost cutting of senior positions" category. Not going to go all Doom and Gloom over the future of D&D but some positions were redundant (because of the outside marketing) and a cost cutting move at the end of the year might be cold from a human point of view, but it does make sense from a corporate view especially a toy corporation which focuses on getting stuff shipped to retailers by Nov. 

Still it was bad to lose Charles and it does not help the others who were let go. Good luck and Good fortune to you all.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 2, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Just curious, was this before or during the Lorraine Years?




It was actually DURING the Lorraine years....I started writing freelance in 1986, with Roger Moore being a big supporter of mine...Worked with Bruce Heard and Harold Johnson for years, right up until things turned to crap, what, 1998 or so? Whenever TSR went under and they couldn't pay the printers and such.

I know other people have had nightmare stories about working with TSR during that time, but I also know a bunch who had my experience as well.

I did do my best to stay as far away from the politics as possible.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 2, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> I've seen the ads on WotC's website, but I've never seen it for sale.  If it's good, I may have to look into it.  Granted, Strat-O-Matic Baseball will likely always be my baseball game of choice.  I love Strat!




I love MLB. Even the changes they've made have been good ones. I've bought each year's version starting with the first one (2000). My oldest son and I have been going head-to-head with our teams over the last few years, and it's a total blast. You really do feel like you're managing a team.

In fact, we're enjoying it so much, we're thinking of pulling in a few more people, and actually have a division race in 2006. What's cool is that even though the player cards are obsolete when the new season starts, the Strategy cards are still good, and I'm still using mine from the first edition, augmented of course with newer, nastier cards. Bwahah!

Admittedly, not every game store I've been to carries it. But someone must be buying it, for it to be going on for the past five years.


----------



## seankreynolds (Dec 2, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> My own experiences with Hasbro/WotC vs TSR have shown me that, although TSR was far from perfect, they seemed to have a greater degree of humanity and loyalty. At least that's how it was for me.




I guess you didn't hear how TSR laid off a bunch of people in December 1996, just a couple of weeks before Xmas. That was great fun. The same day they had the "holiday party," which was taking the remaining employees out to lunch. "Your bonus this year is that you get to keep your job."

:/

In any case, this still sucks.



> I've been fuming lately about the fact that I wasn't tapped to contribute even a single lousy paragraph in the upcoming Secrets of the Moonsea, since I wrote the 2nd Ed AD&D Moonsea supplement, and have always been led to believe that it was a solid, decent entry into the FR canon.




MOTM was approved at the last minute and they needed to grab designers in a big hurry (our deadline was only about 5 weeks after it was assigned to us, and Gen Con was smack in the middle of it). Plus, the book isn't a pure sourcebook like your book was (I can't go into details because WotC hasn't really released info about it yet). And you have to admit that you don't exactly have a lot of d20 credits to your name, if the Pen & Paper Database is any indicator. WotC also may not have known if you were available. I don't think your book was bad (though it suffers some of the problems common to most 2E FR products) and we used it as a reference for MOTM. I wouldn't take it personally.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Dec 2, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> I love MLB. Even the changes they've made have been good ones. I've bought each year's version starting with the first one (2000). My oldest son and I have been going head-to-head with our teams over the last few years, and it's a total blast. You really do feel like you're managing a team.
> 
> In fact, we're enjoying it so much, we're thinking of pulling in a few more people, and actually have a division race in 2006. What's cool is that even though the player cards are obsolete when the new season starts, the Strategy cards are still good, and I'm still using mine from the first edition, augmented of course with newer, nastier cards. Bwahah!
> 
> Admittedly, not every game store I've been to carries it. But someone must be buying it, for it to be going on for the past five years.



 Interesting.  I may have to try and track down a set.

Thanks!


----------



## Nikchick (Dec 2, 2005)

qstor said:
			
		

> Doesn't WOTC use former employees as freelancers though? Isn't that the same? Just wondering...





They do, but I believe they have to wait something like three months before they can hire someone they laid off to do the same job "freelance".


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Dec 2, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Hello, everybody.
> 
> Just thought I'd stop by and confirm what you've already heard. Today was my last day with Wizards of the Coast. Although I will still be active on these boards and in the D&D community, I am no longer a spokesman for D&D or WotC.
> 
> ...





Thank you for taking the time to reply, I am very sorry about the way the dice have landed.

D&D is the only WotC product line that I have any interest in. However while looking at the D&D stuff at our local Waldenbooks I heard a clerk explain to a customer that they no longer do monthly shipments of Magic cards, but only get one shipment when a new set comes out.

Also at Waldenbooks:
No A&A at all.

Never even _heard_ of Hecatombs, let alone seen it.

No Neopets.

I do suspect that D&D is losing staff because of the failures of other game lines. Which well and truely sucks. I hope that you land on your feet.

The Auld Grump


----------



## diaglo (Dec 2, 2005)

Nikchick said:
			
		

> They do, but I believe they have to wait something like three months before they can hire someone they laid off to do the same job "freelance".



do they have a noncompete clause in their employee contracts upon hire?


----------



## Nikchick (Dec 2, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> do they have a noncompete clause in their employee contracts upon hire?




Dunno.  Maybe someone with more recent (or first-hand) experience could comment, but they did get into a little spat with Pokemon USA (http://www.gamewyrd.com/echoes/others2_15.php) when Pokemon USA hired some of the employees Wizards themselves had laid off.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Dec 2, 2005)

So, the bloodletting has no borders...sorry to hear that over there. Best Wishes.  


			
				ukgpublishing said:
			
		

> well it looks to me as if Hasbro Worldwide is catching up with Hasbro UK and Europe over here we saw them lay off nearly all the staff leaving just 3 wotc employees on the magic brand line and replacing everything else with Hasbro staff. Then they got rid of carl crook as the brand manager leaving 2.
> corparate mentality leaves little to be desired from an employee point of view, however best of luck to charles and if he wants to do a little independant work promoting our products on a commision basis in the USA, he is always welcome to write. Although I don't think we pay enough.
> 
> Kevin for UKG Publishing


----------



## Truth Seeker (Dec 2, 2005)

Highly unlikely, maybe...but still possible, no?



			
				kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Highly unlikely, IMO.  Having worked in marketing and advertising for 16 years, in my experience, a PR agency is *not*, in any way, a substitute for an actual marketing department.  PR is only one of about a half-dozen functions that report to marketing.  (And, as I noted before, nearly every large company retains an external PR agency.)
> 
> All that story really said is that WotC used to only have one PR agency under retainer, for both D&D and M:tG, and now they're going with two different ones.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Dec 2, 2005)

Mr.Ryan, although our meetings were in snippets at Gen Con. I was left with the impression, that you were, no...are a person of good standing. I am sorry to see this happen, and I do know how it feels, when getting the call, or the talk, when getting the pink slip.

I am sorry though, I did not interact with you more, after Gen Con, but during that time of our brief converse, online and at Gen Con. You left a great impression on me, when you said, on when we met the first time. How that you did some research on me, when the airing of the Dungeon & Dragons #2 movie was coming down the pike. A first I ever heard, and I hope that what was founded, was not a lot of holes.    .

Thank You for your time.

And congrats on your second wailing banshee to enter your household.   



			
				CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Hello, everybody.
> 
> Just thought I'd stop by and confirm what you've already heard. Today was my last day with Wizards of the Coast. Although I will still be active on these boards and in the D&D community, I am no longer a spokesman for D&D or WotC.
> 
> ...


----------



## loki44 (Dec 2, 2005)

Tough luck Chuck.  That really sucks.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 2, 2005)

Originally Posted by Nikchick said:
			
		

> They do, but I believe they have to wait something like three months before they can hire someone they laid off to do the same job "freelance".






			
				diaglo said:
			
		

> do they have a noncompete clause in their employee contracts upon hire?




In this case the restriction is a self-imposed one, from within Hasbro. As a matter of policy they can not hire "freelance" someone they just layed off. (I don't know the genesis of that policy.)

I am not certain, but I think that the duration of this "probation" extends to the limit of the severance package.

Anyhow, this isn't specifically a "non-compete" kind of situation. Maybe your question wasn't asking that, but as it followed on the heels of (and quoted) Nicole I couldn't tell.

A freelancer could (hypothetically) gain employment with another outside design firm to do an end-run around this restriction. That is to say, Hasbro pays Elite Design Studio to complete some outside design work. Elite Design subcontracts the job to John Doe, knowing that he is the best man for the job with up-to-date, intimate experience of the brand in question.

In this case, though again I am not certain, any 'competitive' employment of John Doe within the duration of his severance package could invalidate his severance package (and this may or may not include Elite Design Studio).

I am not certain, otherwise, how a non-compete clause is enforceable under the law. The employer really has no other legal leverage over their former employee to make such demands.


----------



## diaglo (Dec 2, 2005)

loki44 said:
			
		

> Tough luck Chuck.  That really sucks.





you forgot to mention the muck on his truck and the few bucks from ducks


----------



## diaglo (Dec 2, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> In this case the restriction is a self-imposed one, from within Hasbro. As a matter of policy they can not hire "freelance" someone they just layed off. (I don't know the genesis of that policy.)
> 
> I am not certain, but I think that the duration of this "probation" extends to the limit of the severance package.
> 
> ...



Ben,


yup. that's exactly what i was asking.

thanks


----------



## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Well, carp in a hat.
> 
> Guess I'm glad I didn't get that job as WotC's Director of Market Research, after all...




You and me both ......


----------



## Varianor Abroad (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm sorry for the layoffs. Good luck to Charles and Michelle and everyone else!

The "CCGs dragged down the division" theory coupled with Mearls' statement a few months ago that "D&D is doing fine" gives good weight to the "fire the management with big salaries" theory. Having worked for major corporations, I agree that it's quite likely. Especially if there are new VPs in the company above local management. There's often a change of personnel to clear the decks in case they later want to hire people they're comfortable with.


----------



## kenobi65 (Dec 2, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Highly unlikely, maybe...but still possible, no?




Anything's *possible*, Truth Seeker.  Obviously, neither you nor I know all the details.

But, hiring a new PR agency (and, remember, they already *had* a PR agency; the recent move was to assign M:tG and D&D to two different PR agencies) really is nowhere near the same thing as hiring an outside marketing consultant to take over the marketing function.  PR agencies do very specific things, and there's a lot that Marketing entails that PR agencies just don't have anything to do with.

Now, it's entirely possible that they'll now hire some external consultant to do the marketing management that used to be handled in-house.  But, the deal with the PR agency really is likely a completely separate issue.


----------



## Nikchick (Dec 2, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> In this case the restriction is a self-imposed one, from within Hasbro. As a matter of policy they can not hire "freelance" someone they just layed off. (I don't know the genesis of that policy.)
> 
> I am not certain, but I think that the duration of this "probation" extends to the limit of the severance package.





Aaah, now that rings some bells.  I think Wulf's nailed it.


----------



## kenobi65 (Dec 2, 2005)

Warbringer said:
			
		

> You and me both ......




Are you saying you were up for that job, too...or just that you're happy I didn't get it?


----------



## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> don't even see the Hecatomb stuff near me at all. i don't know if the retailers even bought any. it ain't advertised in any of the stores i visit.




Ditto. Seems this baby of JT will die on the vine



> ditto on the A&A comments from both of you.




If it had actually been 15mm it would have given Flames of War a run for its money (the fastest growing WWII game)

Interested to know where the other layoffs are. Magic may be #1 but its sales are lagging along with Duelmaster (check out the last 10K).


----------



## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Are you saying you were up for that job, too...or just that you're happy I didn't get it?




Given the recent announcements .. both


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 2, 2005)

seankreynolds said:
			
		

> I guess you didn't hear how TSR laid off a bunch of people in December 1996, just a couple of weeks before Xmas. That was great fun. The same day they had the "holiday party," which was taking the remaining employees out to lunch. "Your bonus this year is that you get to keep your job."
> 
> :/
> 
> ...




Ahhh...just back from lunch. Yum. Deep dish pizza. Ok, now to the buisness at hand.

Sean:
No, I didn't hear about that 1996 layoff. That's horrendous! Was that around the same time as the whole "everything's going to heck and we can't pay anyone to print the stuff?" Because, yeah, towards the end there, things did seem to get pretty bad. All I know is, things seemed like a total mess at the end, but years before that (late 80's to early 90's), things seemed cool. People there seemed to actually remember me (even though I wasn't the best nor most prolific freelancer they had), and actually kept in contact with me, remembering me for assignments, without me having to bug them often or do the phone equivalent of waving my arms frantically and clucking like a chicken 

I'm intrigued about MOTM being "not a pure sourcebook" thing. I know that, for the 2nd ED AD&D Moonsea book, I didn't like the idea of the Players Guide, since it left me with less room to put in more nifty crunchy bits for the DM. But hey...you write what you're asked to write....right? ;-)

Yeah, I know my list of credits for d20 aren't amazing. But hey, I assumed that the fact that I DID do some writing for WotC in a high-profile lline (d20 Star Wars) was at least a step in the right direction, coupled with doing WotC web enhancements for the Unapproachable East, and the fact that I DID write a bunch of Realms products for 2nd Ed, and let's face it, the Realms is the Realms regardless of what dice you're using. I'm also apparently on some freelancer list of Chris Perkins'. So yeah, I'm a writer, and that means I have an ego of some sort, so yeah, I felt a bit snubbed. Not a huge deal though.

But thanks for the response, Sean! It did answer some questions I had. I appreciate it! Thanks again! And I'm looking forward to seeing the book when it comes out! :-D


----------



## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> My experiences in the Great Dot-Com Crash of 2000 have taught me that holiday layofss suck major butt, regardless of the severence package. Nothing can replace the peace of mind of knowing you have a steady income coming in.




Yeah, but at least when that happened it was most of us in the office and the pink slip parties were fun  Besides, I doubt Charles got anything like the severence package I recieved when I walked away from my 1st dot.com dump...


----------



## radferth (Dec 2, 2005)

OT in know, but what's Hecatomb?


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## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Anything's *possible*
> But, hiring a new PR agency (and, remember, they already *had* a PR agency; the recent move was to assign M:tG and D&D to two different PR agencies) really is nowhere near the same thing as hiring an outside marketing consultant to take over the marketing function.  PR agencies do very specific things, and there's a lot that Marketing entails that PR agencies just don't have anything to do with.




As a marketing consultant, ditto.

However, the separation of agencies and budgets now looks a little ominous


----------



## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

radferth said:
			
		

> OT in know, but what's Hecatomb?




Hexagonal cardgame. Pretty good. Fanatsy/Horror focus. Check out the wizards site


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## kenobi65 (Dec 2, 2005)

Warbringer said:
			
		

> Given the recent announcements .. both




Drop me an e-mail or a PM, Warbringer...we should compare notes.


----------



## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Drop me an e-mail or a PM, Warbringer...we should compare notes.




I can't PM. Check email.


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## StupidSmurf (Dec 2, 2005)

Warbringer said:
			
		

> Yeah, but at least when that happened it was most of us in the office and the pink slip parties were fun  Besides, I doubt Charles got anything like the severence package I recieved when I walked away from my 1st dot.com dump...





We never had pink slip parties. We walked into work one Monday morning, and were told there would be a meeting in about an hour. At the meeting, we were told that the VCs (Venture Capitalists) were withdrawing their funding, and that the doors were closing that Friday. No severence packages, because they had no money for them. They were going to keep a skeleton staff to keep the company running in name, since they were the plaintiffs in a lawsuit, but the lawsuit would go away if the company ceased to exist. So they kept a handful of us (I was one of the eight lucky ones), and were told to just report to work and do some token stuff, and that eventually the lawsuit would be resolved, and they'd just close the doors and we'd be done.

After a while, the suit was resolved, the owners got a fat settlement, and our last day was December 31, 1999. The humorous part was that I was promptly rehired to a NEW startup that was started by a few of the VPs of the just-dissolved company! Bwahaha! I started on Jan 2, 2000! I was hired on to be a Games Editor, but the company had no games yet. I worked there till April, got a 20% pay increase, then was laid off (along with a half dozen other people) over the phone during my vacation that July, because they still didn't have Games up and running, so I was expendable! The company closed its doors by the end of that year. Ironically, when I got laid off, I ended up doing temp work as a Games Manual editor at Hasbro, in Beverly! 

Aren't dot-coms wonderful?


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 2, 2005)

Warbringer said:
			
		

> Yeah, but at least when that happened it was most of us in the office and the pink slip parties were fun  Besides, I doubt Charles got anything like the severence package I recieved when I walked away from my 1st dot.com dump...





Hey Warbringer...how many dot-coms were you in? As you can tell, I was in two of 'em....


----------



## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

removed as OT...


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## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Hey Warbringer...how many dot-coms were you in? As you can tell, I was in two of 'em....




Three and one linux company  Sorry to hijack the thread.

Back to topic.

I'm sorry to see Charles go. It really feels like he is fallout for poor CCG performance as his termination seems coupled with that of Cornelius and Joe.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 2, 2005)

Warbringer said:
			
		

> I walked into the quarterly VC funding meeting with projections for the coming quarter; just like asking dad if we could borrow the car.
> 
> Within 2 minutes they stopped the meeting and said if we couldn't merge with our main competitior in two weeks it was over.
> 
> It's sad. Most of the poor management at dot.coms was the VC expectations (mainly how quickly can you spend this money so we can raise more!), not bad management by the company.





You are absolutely right on the money. Most of it was inflated and unrealistic VC expectations. The first dot-com I was in had a VC who thought that he'd see millions of dollars' worth of returns on his investement. Every month. Starting with the month after he made his initial investment.

Of course, some of the blame has to rest on the way that some of the dot.coms were run. In that notorious first dot.com I was in, I personally recall lots of flirting, champagne parties every time any sort of an announcement was released, meeting Wierd Al Yankovic, playing MarioKart, playing on our new Dreamcast, or playing Quake II on our LAN.

Yeah, time to bring the thread back around...though perhaps a new thread about zany dot-coms may be in order. My apologies for my role in this.


----------



## Monte At Home (Dec 2, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> No, I didn't hear about that 1996 layoff. That's horrendous! Was that around the same time as the whole "everything's going to heck and we can't pay anyone to print the stuff?" Because, yeah, towards the end there, things did seem to get pretty bad. All I know is, things seemed like a total mess at the end, but years before that (late 80's to early 90's), things seemed cool.




Well, actually, I'm going to agree with your earlier post about TSR having more humanity than WotC, though I know Sean doesn't. Now normally, far be it from me to defend or say anything good about TSR upper management. But that's not the whole picture of TSR. While TSR was corrupt at the top, everyone from the middle managers on down were good people. There were people there who fought for other people's jobs, and eventually lost their jobs because of it. And even the dreaded upper management didn't do layoffs until they absolutely had to. It was clear to all concerned that things were terrible, and something like that was coming. Not like most of the WotC layoffs, where I'm told that people were apparently quite blindsided. Unlike TSR, WotC has a typical backbiting corporate atmosphere at every level of the company. 

I suppose in the end it's just a lesser of two evils thing.


----------



## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Unlike TSR, WotC has a typical backbiting corporate atmosphere at every level of the company.




Monte, was WOTC like this pre-Hasbro? I'd heard some horror stories (mainly around retreats).


----------



## rgard (Dec 2, 2005)

Bullgrit said:
			
		

> Just to give another side (possibility) to the "bad to be laid off on the holidays" concept:
> 
> Sometimes the company does it to be nice. If they are giving a good severance package, instead of making the folks work through the holiday season (not knowing what's coming right after), the company lets them go to be with their families during the season with pay (severance).
> 
> Bullgrit




Hi Bullgrit, that would be a way for the decision maker (guy who decided to let them go) to rationalize the situation if he has a conscience.

There is usually no upside to getting wacked just before Christmas.  Pretty much screws up the holiday season.


----------



## WizarDru (Dec 2, 2005)

Warbringer said:
			
		

> If it had actually been 15mm it would have given Flames of War a run for its money (the fastest growing WWII game)




What scale is it?  The manual states that it IS 15mm.

I also think you've miscategorized it; it's not meant for the same audience as Flames of War.  In point of fact, I think the FoW's core audience were pretty far from the people in the demographic they were targetting.  A&A minis is to FoW what the Axis&Allies board game is to, say, Squad Leader, I thought.

I don't know that I would look at availability in Waldenbooks as an indicator, though.  I mean, they got bought out and made in Border's Express, didn't they?  I wouldn't expect them to carry D&D minis, either.


----------



## Schwebs (Dec 2, 2005)

*Compare Notes on WOTC Research Job*

Warbringer and Kenobi65 - I would be very interested in comparing notes about the Research position at WOTC. PM or E-mail will both work for me.

Charles - sorry to her about the layoff. Your presence here went a long way to putting a human face on WOTC. Good luck.


----------



## Warbringer (Dec 2, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> What scale is it?  The manual states that it IS 15mm.
> 
> I also think you've miscategorized it; it's not meant for the same audience as Flames of War.  In point of fact, I think the FoW's core audience were pretty far from the people in the demographic they were targetting.  A&A minis is to FoW what the Axis&Allies board game is to, say, Squad Leader, I thought.




The manual states 15mm, the actual scale is closer to 12mm in the tanks. Not to quibble, it just makes crossover impossible.

FOW is very rules light and doesn't appeal to hard core WWII minaturists. A large portion of new players in FOW are 10-16 (right in GWs sweet spot). I think your comparison of A+A to SL is pretty good. The point of my post was really that it being 15mm A+A had a change of reaching a younger audience were PP, FOW and others offer unpainted.

I think A+A was really in response to Mem44 to be honest, but I personally see a future in board games were the pieces are more important than the board game.


----------



## rgard (Dec 2, 2005)

BWP said:
			
		

> Just curious: where is the Antarctica office of WOTC located, exactly?
> 
> (I can well believe that people currently living there would play a lot of stuff like *M:tG* and *D&D*, though!)




It's next store to my Antartic game store:  Blue Star Games South.


----------



## Pramas (Dec 2, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> What scale is it?  The manual states that it IS 15mm.




OK, this is waaaaayyy off topic, so I apologize. 

This is one of the problems with Axis & Allies. When they announced it, I thought I'd get a starter and maybe a booster or two to give it a try. Worst case scenario, I'd get some pre-painted vehicles I could use in Flames of War. The trouble is that while the infantry are more or less 15mm, the vehicles are not. They are maybe 10-12mm so they look small next to actual 15mm figs. I got a Jagdpanther in my A&A starter set, for example, and when you put in next to a FOW Panzer III you can see that it's smaller. 60 ton assault guns should not be smaller than 20 ton tanks. I don't like A&A enough to keep buying it on its own merits. I may have continued to pick up some boosters if I could use the vehicles in other 15mm games, as I'm a lazy painter. Once I did the size comparison though, I jettisoned that idea.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 2, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Well, actually, I'm going to agree with your earlier post about TSR having more humanity than WotC, though I know Sean doesn't. Now normally, far be it from me to defend or say anything good about TSR upper management. But that's not the whole picture of TSR. While TSR was corrupt at the top, everyone from the middle managers on down were good people. There were people there who fought for other people's jobs, and eventually lost their jobs because of it. And even the dreaded upper management didn't do layoffs until they absolutely had to. It was clear to all concerned that things were terrible, and something like that was coming. Not like most of the WotC layoffs, where I'm told that people were apparently quite blindsided. Unlike TSR, WotC has a typical backbiting corporate atmosphere at every level of the company.
> 
> I suppose in the end it's just a lesser of two evils thing.




Yes! YES! Monte, you hit the nail RIGHT on the head!!! "Everyone from the middle managers on down were good people." That's EXACTLY the case, I found. I recall working with Zeb Cook, Bruce Heard, Roger Moore, Karen Boomgarden, Harold Johnson, Anne Brown, to name a few...all of them really really nice people. They went to bat for you, and you weren't forgotten. I was given first crack at deciding if I wanted to do a project, sent free stuff, asked if I wanted to be included in playtesting, heck even invited to participate in a panel discussion at GenCon.


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## diaglo (Dec 2, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Yes! YES! Monte, you hit the nail RIGHT on the head!!! "Everyone from the middle managers on down were good people." That's EXACTLY the case, I found. I recall working with Zeb Cook, Bruce Heard, Roger Moore, Karen Boomgarden, Harold Johnson, Anne Brown, to name a few...all of them really really nice people. They went to bat for you, and you weren't forgotten. I was given first crack at deciding if I wanted to do a project, sent free stuff, asked if I wanted to be included in playtesting, heck even invited to participate in a panel discussion at GenCon.




i've read comments by (T)Ed Stark to the same effect when he spoke of Harold Johnson going to bat for him.


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## francisca (Dec 2, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i've read comments by (T)Ed Stark to the same effect when he spoke of Harold Johnson going to bat for him.



I briefly gamed and chatted with Harold in Lake Geneva and Gencon earlier this year, he is a really nice guy, and a hoot to play MA with!


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## Henry (Dec 2, 2005)

Let me take a break to rave to Stupidsmurf: It certainly took my dim brain long enough to figure out who you were, but I wanted to say thank you for some great works in the past from both D&D and Top Secret. One of your articles on Top Secret was one of my favorite Dragon articles of the past 25 years (the one about the PC who parleyed knowledge of Latin into a whole lot more than he probably should have. )

That's all.


----------



## Siran Dunmorgan (Dec 2, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> In this case the restriction is a self-imposed one, from within Hasbro. As a matter of policy they can not hire "freelance" someone they just layed off. (I don't know the genesis of that policy.)
> 
> I am not certain, but I think that the duration of this "probation" extends to the limit of the severance package.
> 
> ...




I can speak to some of this; many large companies have policies that originate in the idea that "we can't pay these people twice for doing the same job", i.e., they can't be hired during the time that their severance is in effect, e.g., if you have a three-month severance, they can't hire you back on a contractor basis for three months.

I know people to whom this has happened; some of them even tried giving back the severance package in order to be hired as contractors immediately.  However, the company had already booked the severance as payroll expense and reported it to Internal Revenue: the company could not reasonably take it back.

The extent to which a company can hire a third party—Elite Design Studio, in your example—who in turn hires the original employee varies on a state-by-state basis in the US.  It's perfectly legitimate in California, for example, but I believe is under certain restrictions in New York and some other states with strong protections for trade unions.  I don't know at all the extent to which this applies in Washington.

—Siran Dunmorgan


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## StupidSmurf (Dec 2, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Let me take a break to rave to Stupidsmurf: It certainly took my dim brain long enough to figure out who you were, but I wanted to say thank you for some great works in the past from both D&D and Top Secret. One of your articles on Top Secret was one of my favorite Dragon articles of the past 25 years (the one about the PC who parleyed knowledge of Latin into a whole lot more than he probably should have. )
> 
> That's all.





Wow. Thanks! I'm delighted you liked them! 

To Diaglo and Francisca: Ed Stark is really good people too. Matter of fact, the only reason I didn't include him in my list of cool people at TSR is that I actually began dealing with him when he worked at West End Games. He was one of the cool WEG folks!


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## vrykyl (Dec 2, 2005)

francisca said:
			
		

> I briefly gamed and chatted with Harold in Lake Geneva and Gencon earlier this year, he is a really nice guy, and a hoot to play MA with!




There was a story of Mr. Johnson back in the early 80s, when then-game designer Tracy Hickman was on the chopping block and Harold offered to resign instead because Tracy had young children. It was part of the more community (and less corporate) feel that I had in my visits to the TSR offices in the early-to-mid 90s. There was something special about the company's atmosphere, despite its obvious problems, that made me really want to work there.

Another decade later, and now I'm working just down the street from where TSR was founded (and right next door to the original site of Gen Con). I drive by the old office on Sheridan Springs Road quite often, and always shake my head sadly.

Jamie Chambers
Vice President
Sovereign Press, Inc.


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## Son_of_Thunder (Dec 2, 2005)

*Tracy Hickman*



			
				vrykyl said:
			
		

> There was a story of Mr. Johnson back in the early 80s, when then-game designer Tracy Hickman was on the chopping block and Harold offered to resign instead because Tracy had young children. It was part of the more community (and less corporate) feel that I had in my visits to the TSR offices in the early-to-mid 90s. There was something special about the company's atmosphere, despite its obvious problems, that made me really want to work there.
> 
> Another decade later, and now I'm working just down the street from where TSR was founded (and right next door to the original site of Gen Con). I drive by the old office on Sheridan Springs Road quite often, and always shake my head sadly.
> 
> ...




Man, I still wish Tracy did game design work. His modules were some of my favorites. I know the novels make him a ton more money though so I don't begrudge him.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Dec 2, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> In this case the restriction is a self-imposed one, from within Hasbro. As a matter of policy they can not hire "freelance" someone they just layed off. (I don't know the genesis of that policy.)
> 
> I am not certain, but I think that the duration of this "probation" extends to the limit of the severance package.




I used to do freelance camerawork for Sears, and they had the same policy - which came up because they laid off a bunch of staff video technicians and they couldn't hire them back as freelancers until their severance package ran out.  When it did, they did hire back a bunch of those people on a freelance basis.


----------



## WizarDru (Dec 2, 2005)

Warbringer said:
			
		

> I think A+A was really in response to Mem44 to be honest, but I personally see a future in board games were the pieces are more important than the board game.




Ah, interesting to know.  I thought the tanks seemed a trifle on the small side.  Oh, well.  I like Memoir '44, too, for wholly different reasons.  I guess I'm just to busy/lazy to consider something like FoW (which I've heard many good things about) because of the whole painting and terrain building thing.

To bring this back to being on topic:

what does this mean for the D&D brand, in general.  Does someone take over being its sheperd?  Is it all freelance, now, and will the quality of publications and editing plummet back to 3.0 splatbook days?  Does WotC simply have that much material stored up, or do they see the brand as so static now that this is a workable position?


----------



## Pramas (Dec 2, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> what does this mean for the D&D brand, in general.  Does someone take over being its sheperd?  Is it all freelance, now, and will the quality of publications and editing plummet back to 3.0 splatbook days?  Does WotC simply have that much material stored up, or do they see the brand as so static now that this is a workable position?




There is a new D&D brand manager. I have never heard of him, so I can't speak to his qualifications or temperment. WotC has already been working with more freelancers and I'm sure that'll continue, but they also still have a big staff of designers, developers, and editors so I don't predict much change. WotC is a big company and it does not turn on a dime. Even if the new brand guy instituted sweeping changes his first day on the job, they wouldn't be noticeable to the consumer for at least a year anyway.


----------



## nerfherder (Dec 2, 2005)

Best wishes and hope you find new employment soon, Charles.

When I asked on another thread when Millenium's End 3.0 was coming out, I swear I had no idea...   

Cheers,
Liam


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## WizarDru (Dec 2, 2005)

Pramas said:
			
		

> There is a new D&D brand manager. I have never heard of him, so I can't speak to his qualifications or temperment. WotC has already been working with more freelancers and I'm sure that'll continue, but they also still have a big staff of designers, developers, and editors so I don't predict much change. WotC is a big company and it does not turn on a dime. Even if the new brand guy instituted sweeping changes his first day on the job, they wouldn't be noticeable to the consumer for at least a year anyway.




Well, that's good to know...I guess.  Frankly every time I get used to someone of talent at WotC, they end up getting fired.  It's not a trend I think I ever really want to get used to.  Having no idea of WotC's size, I wasn't sure if this meant that they'd gutted their creative divisions or not.  Still stinks to lose your job, especially at this time of year.

Except for when 500 coworkers and I got laid off from Lockheed.  I hated that job so much, I was relieved to be fired.  Hate those guys.  [grumble, grumble]


----------



## Muddyboots (Dec 2, 2005)

*Charlie! Contact me!*

Charlie,

I'm sorry to hear the news!

If you see this, contact me via E-mail

WEB from The Rock

AKA Muddyboots


----------



## William Ronald (Dec 3, 2005)

Charles, I wish you, Michelle Lyons, and the other people fired from WotC the best. I have enjoyed many of WotC's releases in the past few years, and I wish all of you the best.  I hope that we will continue to see you on the boards, and that you and the other employees will find good jobs soon.  Congratulations on the upcoming birth of your second child!  You are handling this bad news with a great deal of class. 

I am trying to recall how far WotC is from its top number of employees.  I can't recall, but a layoff around the holidays is always rough.  

I can's say what this means for the Dungeons and Dragons line, as it seems that Hasbro has been making cuts in many areas.  As for Hecatomb, I was not really aware of the product.  We should remember that Hasbro is a large company, and the the decision to get rid of many of the big salaries could not only reflect issues beyond the D&D line..  The firings could reflect cuts throughout many divisions of Hasbro.  (I have little insight into how Hasbro is doing as a whole, but I have seen companies make cuts in all divisions because of problems in a few subsidiary companies.)



			
				Pramas said:
			
		

> There is a new D&D brand manager. I have never heard of him, so I can't speak to his qualifications or temperment. WotC has already been working with more freelancers and I'm sure that'll continue, but they also still have a big staff of designers, developers, and editors so I don't predict much change. WotC is a big company and it does not turn on a dime. Even if the new brand guy instituted sweeping changes his first day on the job, they wouldn't be noticeable to the consumer for at least a year anyway.




I have worked for some large companies, and will testify to how hard it is to make sweeping changes.  Projects can be in development for months, or years.  So, based on what we have seen on these boards about releases going into September, I agree that we would not notice major changes for another year. (Who is the new manager?   I am slightly worried about someone managing the D&D line who may not be familair with gaming.)

Siran Dunmorgan and Muddyboots:  Welcome to the boards!  I wish it was under better circumstances.


----------



## Darrin Drader (Dec 3, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Well, that's good to know...I guess.  Frankly every time I get used to someone of talent at WotC, they end up getting fired.  It's not a trend I think I ever really want to get used to.  Having no idea of WotC's size, I wasn't sure if this meant that they'd gutted their creative divisions or not.  Still stinks to lose your job, especially at this time of year.




Agreed. What stinks about this is that, in my ever so humble opinion, Charles was doing an awesome job, and him getting canned has nothing to do with his abilities as a brand manager. Ditto for Peter Archer, who should be getting more attention in all this.


----------



## William Ronald (Dec 3, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Agreed. What stinks about this is that, in my ever so humble opinion, Charles was doing an awesome job, and him getting canned has nothing to do with his abilities as a brand manager. Ditto for Peter Archer, who should be getting more attention in all this.





I agree about the job that Charles was doing.  As for Peter Archer, I am not familiar with the sales of WoTC's books.   However, they do take up several stacks of the science fiction section at a local Border's. I am not familiar with all the names mentioned in the Gaming Report article but it does seem as if many of the most prominent people at WoTC were fired.

I wish we had more of an idea if the firings were due to problems with the D&D line or other factors.


----------



## Owen K.C. Stephens (Dec 3, 2005)

Nikchick said:
			
		

> Because of the Microsoft Permatemp lawsuits, I think they're prevented from laying someone off and then turning around and hiring them back as a "contractor" to do the same job.




When I was laid off back in 2001, that was true. There was a 6 month minimum wait before that department could offer me any work.

Having been in exactly this situation -- laid off a year after moving my family across the country to take the job, my heart goes out to all affected. And that's not just those laid off. Their families, friends and coworkers all pay a price for this kind of thing.

My opinion of the kind of corporate planning that has people in the same department, in some cases the exact same people, hired and laid off in alternating waves over a 5 year span can't be stated on a family-friendly messagebaord, but be assured it's negative.

Owen K.C. Stephens
Alumnus, WotC school of hard knocks.


----------



## Darrin Drader (Dec 3, 2005)

OStephens said:
			
		

> My opinion of the kind of corporate planning that has people in the same department, in some cases the exact same people, hired and laid off in alternating waves over a 5 year span can't be stated on a family-friendly messagebaord, but be assured it's negative.




Mt last job (not WotC) does this. They also hired me, kept me for all of 7 months, and then laid me off. What I have to say about companies that bring on employees and then have to lay them off in less than a year (less than two years actually) probably mirrors what you aren't saying above.


----------



## Sholari (Dec 3, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> It's probably time for more threads of "the sky is falling".




The sky may not be falling, but let's not be too complacent about things either.  From what information seems to be garnered here.  Sales of Magic or CCGs seem to have taken a tumble.  At a high level they realized that their fixed cost structure would eat into their margins as well, and made cuts to bring the cost structure in line with sales.  The interesting thing is where they made those cuts.

1) Headcount is one of the more visible places they made the cuts.  Are they also making deeper cuts to marketing spend, R&D projects, etc.  What is the impact on D&D going forward.

2) Even though Magic is the likely culprit, they do not appear to have made the cuts there.  Instead they made it to Hecatomb (which seems to have been a dud anyway), D&D, etc.  That may well indicate that D&D is considered expendable next to Magic, and if sales continue to fall they may continue to cut budget for the D&D brand.  At a certain point that is likely to haver a very material impact to the game you and I love.

3) Any time they pull in a "new" brand manager there is no guarantee that they are going to pull in somebody that really understands the game.  D&D is not just like your average brand and can not be managed as such.  However, I have worked in places where they pull in a person that has a top-tier MBA and all the proper credentials for a brand manager, who does not understand the specifics of the market.  Often this person knows how to talk a good game to the top, while really screwing up what they are managing.

4) D&D has been screwed up in the past by executives that don't understand the underpinnings of their business and there is nothing to say this could not happen again.  I'd argue it is more likely, because D&D isn't even their core business this time around and thus accountability is more dispersed.  We were all very lucky that Peter Adkinson turned D&D around the first time, otherwise who knows what could have happened.

The sky may not be falling, but we shouldn't sit on our hands and pretend that this is a great thing either.  What happened today may be good for Hasbro, but it is not good for D&D nor for D&D fans.  I think that if enough D&D enthusiasts sent in some well-placed, polite letters stating their concerns for how Hasbro is managing D&D it would at least get people's attention and maybe make D&D not the easy place to cut in the future.


----------



## mlen1981 (Dec 3, 2005)

_
2) Even though Magic is the likely culprit, they do not appear to have made the cuts there.  Instead they made it to Hecatomb (which seems to have been a dud anyway), D&D, etc.  That may well indicate that D&D is considered expendable next to Magic, and if sales continue to fall they may continue to cut budget for the D&D brand.  At a certain point that is likely to haver a very material impact to the game you and I love._

The story on Gaming Report has been updated with additional names. Apparently the Magic Brand Manager and more Veeps are in the expanded list.


----------



## chriton227 (Dec 3, 2005)

Charles,

I wish you all the luck in the world with your future projects.  I know that you will continue doing great things, and that the gaming industry will continue to be enhanced by your contributions.

I've been a big fan for a long time (since you suckered me into running ME at Origins), and I've enjoyed seeing all the different things you have worked on over the years.  Take some time with your family, and we'll see you when you return.  Know that all of us back in Blacksburg/Christiansburg are thinking about you.

--
Paul Pearce


----------



## dorentir (Dec 3, 2005)

My condolences and best wishes to all those who lost their positions at WOTC recently.  I lost my own position of 5 years recently in a very down Michigan economy and it has been a very big struggle. 
This sort of thing is increasingly common all over.
I'd be surprised if there is as much logic or thought as to the layoffs as many here seem to hope to find.  Corporations tend to make their decisions along lines that don't follow the rules of logic.  In my case, our division (which was a consistant earner) had three layoffs over the course of 5 years while other divisions which lost money retained or added staff.  As far as I can tell, the decisions were based mostly on interoffice politics and the fact that our divisional manager betrayed us in order to further his own career.  In our case, an acquisition got rid of the whole company --- I saw talented, dedicated people tossed out while the weasels got offered new positions, promotions and raises at the new company.


----------



## johnsemlak (Dec 3, 2005)

Son_of_Thunder said:
			
		

> Man, I still wish Tracy did game design work. His modules were some of my favorites. I know the novels make him a ton more money though so I don't begrudge him.




IIRC he's doing a module for the Serenity RPG sometime soon, according to an interview on RPGRadio.net


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## DungeonMaster (Dec 3, 2005)

I'm one of the biggest critics of 3.5 and to be perfectly honest, the "pitch" was very good. 
I've even been tempted to order a book on the pitch alone. 
It's the product specifically a small group of "designers" at WotC that deserve the boot - and HARD. You don't need to be a "sage" to figure it out.   

I'm sorry to hear you're wife is expecting when this happens Charles. I think you did a good job.


----------



## Darrin Drader (Dec 3, 2005)

DungeonMaster said:
			
		

> It's the product specifically a small group of "designers" at WotC that deserve the boot - and HARD. You don't need to be a "sage" to figure it out.




THE MODERATOR SPEAKETH:  WE GOT RID OF THE ROLLEYES ICON FOR A REASON.  IF YOU FIND YOURSELF WANTING TO USE IT, WALK AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER, PLEASE!


----------



## seankreynolds (Dec 3, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> No, I didn't hear about that 1996 layoff. That's horrendous! Was that around the same time as the whole "everything's going to heck and we can't pay anyone to print the stuff?" Because, yeah, towards the end there, things did seem to get pretty bad.




Yep. Just a few months later was the infamous "problem with the printers" debacle (the problem being "we can't pay the printers, and they have a problem with that").



> All I know is, things seemed like a total mess at the end, but years before that (late 80's to early 90's), things seemed cool. People there seemed to actually remember me (even though I wasn't the best nor most prolific freelancer they had), and actually kept in contact with me, remembering me for assignments, without me having to bug them often or do the phone equivalent of waving my arms frantically and clucking like a chicken




They did have a big hiring boost mid-'95 (myself, Miranda Horner, Keith Strohm, Bruce Cordell, Cindi Rice, and several others that I can't remember right now because it's 2:30am) so perhaps they were on the "we don't need freelancers, we have enough in-house designers" side of the pendulum swing.

{I'm intrigued about MOTM being "not a pure sourcebook" thing. I know that, for the 2nd ED AD&D Moonsea book, I didn't like the idea of the Players Guide, since it left me with less room to put in more nifty crunchy bits for the DM. But hey...you write what you're asked to write....right? ;-)}

Acknowledging my role as a typing monkey did wonders for my sanity in my later years at WotC. 

{Yeah, I know my list of credits for d20 aren't amazing. But hey, I assumed that the fact that I DID do some writing for WotC in a high-profile lline (d20 Star Wars) was at least a step in the right direction, coupled with doing WotC web enhancements for the Unapproachable East, and the fact that I DID write a bunch of Realms products for 2nd Ed, and let's face it, the Realms is the Realms regardless of what dice you're using. I'm also apparently on some freelancer list of Chris Perkins'. So yeah, I'm a writer, and that means I have an ego of some sort, so yeah, I felt a bit snubbed. Not a huge deal though.}

Well I apologize, not that I have any authority to speak on their behalf.[/QUOTE]


----------



## seankreynolds (Dec 3, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Well, actually, I'm going to agree with your earlier post about TSR having more humanity than WotC, though I know Sean doesn't.




I have to admit that you were at TSR several years more than I was, so you got to see more of the good stuff than I did (things were good at TSR for about a year after I was hired before they started having noticeable problems).

Also, as I was "the online guy" I was still kinda on the outside with respect to the Creative Services department; I knew you guys (some of you in particular) and you knew me, but there were a lot of people in CS I didn't interact with at all. Not that I was being snubbed or anything like that, it's just that I was in the circle, but not the inner circle where you actually learned to cast spells and stuff.  But I could tell that David, Thomas, Steve, and so on did as much as they could to protect their teams from upper-management stupidity.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 3, 2005)

(To everyone who is, or was, a publisher and/or writer in this thread)

  It's an honor to meet you, everyone.  My hats off to your products and your efforts, and to you.
  I went out and returned to the Hobby yesterday after 7 years away, spending over $100 to do so.  An insignificant amount of money, I fear, from an insignificant single person.

  I hope you can maintain the Hobby.  The Hobby is beautiful.  It's special.  You of all people know this, for you put your hearts and souls into it.

  I don't know what will happen to the economy.  I don't know what will happen to WOTC.  But I hope our Hobby can be sustained, and continue to grow (and with every new supplement, every new book, the Hobby grows, in my thinking.)

  To all of you, I give my sincere respect and support.  I cannot make a difference in things, unfortunately, but I can support you, and always will.

  Truly Yours
  Edena_of_Neith


----------



## Jdvn1 (Dec 3, 2005)

I just want to say thanks to StupidSmurf, Charles, and Sean. I've been following the thread for the last couple of pages and it's immensely interesting to me to see the POV's of people in the business (past or present).

I don't know whether or not others of you are in the industry, but thanks to all of you.

I wish all of you luck in your future endeavors, and I'm actually pretty a big fan of the three of you (although I'm only about 60% sure who StupidSmurf is  ).


----------



## Steverooo (Dec 3, 2005)

*Who Got Fired:*

1) Peter Archer (Director of Book Publishing for Wizards of the Coast)
2) Gary Benion
3) Leeds Chamberlain
4) Mike Elliott (Director of Design and Lead designer of Hecatomb for Wizards of the Coast)
5) Joe Hauck (Vice-President of Marketing for Wizards of the Coast)
6) Cornelius Lee (Senior Vice President of Marketing at Wizards of the Coast)
7) Michelle Lyons
8) Jon Rateliff
9) Pat Robinett
10) Katie Roe
11) Charles Ryan (Dungeons & Dragons Brand Manager)
12) Tim Thomas
13) Wendy Wallace
14) Teeuwyn Woodruff
15) ?


----------



## johnsemlak (Dec 3, 2005)

One thing about these comparisons between TSR in 90s and WotC--One of them is a company that may have seemed to treat employees fairly well but ran itself into the ground; another is a company that is trying to cut costs to keep inself not only afloat but also a healthy viable company. 

I am presently working for a company which is shutting down at the end of the year, obviously resulting in everyone loosing their jobs, not just a few layoffs.  Until now, the company had been pretty good to its employees.


----------



## diaglo (Dec 3, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Yeah, because correcting problems, adding options, and increasing the number of systems to the core game is bad.




you don't want to get me started.  



was John Ratliffe (sp?) also one of the ones let go?


----------



## Steverooo (Dec 3, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> was John Ratliffe (sp?) also one of the ones let go?




If you mean Jon Rateliff, yeah, he was #8 on the list, above...


----------



## tylerthehobo (Dec 3, 2005)

palehorse said:
			
		

> I can't speak for anyone but myself on this one, but as someone who's had to lay people off for a variety of reasons, and been laid off myself when our branch was sold off and shut down, I don't think that even entered into it.
> 
> I imagine most folks would have a much more enjoyable holiday if they were still employed and not worried about whether or not they were going to be able to pay the bills in January. Severance is nice and all, but it is no replacement for a steady paycheck.




Hear hear.  I've been at two companies that did massive cuts before the holidays, and the whole thing smacks of Ebeneezer Scrooge.  If from a business perspective they're looking for a whole End the Fourth Quarter / start a new year thing, they can do this after Christmas, when folks actually have a better chance of finding jobs - ever job hunted in December, folks?  It stinks.

WotC should be ashamed of themselves.


----------



## tylerthehobo (Dec 3, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> This might be a prelude to the layoffs...*WotC Taps Two Agencies*. With this, the need for a Marketing arm inhouse, is now moot.





Keep in mind, PR and Marketing are pretty different arms of business.  WotC hiring two PR firms may be unrelated.  The business 101 explanation is this: PR is the process of announcing your business' accomplishments to the public at large through media channels; Marketing is the process of promoting your product to the people who will buy it through any channels - media, grassroots (e.g. the D&D delegate program), advertising, direct mail.  My gut tells me that the hiring of the PR firms and the Marketing/Brand overhauls aren't directly correllated, but are probably two arms of the same effort.

Very concerning...


----------



## tylerthehobo (Dec 3, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> I'm taking collections to buy the DD property from WoTC. Anyone wish to donate?




I smell a hippie-commune-style business plan.      "But, man, I thought it was _your _ turn to create monsters, this week."  


Joke aside, so long as D&D remains open-license, can't we all just focus on D20 products while WotC figures out how to market the core game, now that they've let go some very talented people who knew the product back and forth?


----------



## tylerthehobo (Dec 3, 2005)

Warbringer said:
			
		

> Yeah, but at least when that happened it was most of us in the office and the pink slip parties were fun  Besides, I doubt Charles got anything like the severence package I recieved when I walked away from my 1st dot.com dump...




What dot.com were you at?!?  I have three long gone dot.com's to my name, and the whole notion of pink slip parties and severance packages from companies that never had any viable capital to begin with stinks of myth to me.    

Then again we did have that air hockey table...  good times...

anyway, back to the subject at hand...


----------



## 3catcircus (Dec 3, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> do they have a noncompete clause in their employee contracts upon hire?




IANAL...

Non-compete agreements have been routinely struck down (partially, or in whole) in the courts, the most recent was the guy that Google hired from Microsoft.  

Most people who have an NCA can and do ignore them if they get fired.

A non-disclosure agreement, on the other hand, is something you don't want to trifle with.


----------



## 3catcircus (Dec 3, 2005)

*In a perfect world...*

In a perfect world, one could hope that the remaining people working on D&D would all quit, start up their own OGL company, and wait for the D&D line to tank and watch as Hasbro is forced to sell the IP...


----------



## Thomas Percy (Dec 3, 2005)

It's hard to treat a work for great American company as a solid job*.
And managers know it. 
WotC is a chance of self-promotion in the industrty after all.

* I was workin' for HewlettPackard Poland some years ago, a I was fired by the guy who was fired next month by another guy who was fired next year by CEO from USA. And there is third CEO from this time.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 3, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> I just want to say thanks to StupidSmurf, Charles, and Sean. I've been following the thread for the last couple of pages and it's immensely interesting to me to see the POV's of people in the business (past or present).
> 
> I don't know whether or not others of you are in the industry, but thanks to all of you.
> 
> I wish all of you luck in your future endeavors, and I'm actually pretty a big fan of the three of you (although I'm only about 60% sure who StupidSmurf is  ).





Heh heh...I'm not quite sure how you mean it when you wrote that you're only 60% sure you know who I am, so permit me the luxury of a minor hijack here, and do a thumbnail:

"Real name's John Terra, I live in NH, and I'm 46. Got started doing gaming writing in 1986 with a Dragon article called "Administrators Advice", on how to run the Top Secret RPG (the original, good one...not Top Secret SI). I developed a good working relationship with Roger Moore and Bruce Heard, and contributed to a lot of various adventure anthologies.

I got more work, and ended up doing more Dragon articles, some early Dungeon stuff, and a whole slew of old RPGA tournaments. I also expanded my client base, and wound up doing writing for FASA (Earthdawn), Mayfair (DC Heroes), and West End Games (Star Wars, Shatterzone, Indiana Jones, and TORG).

Hit my stride when I wound up doing a bunch of AD&D stuff (parts of 2nd Ed Monster Manual binder pages Vol 1 and 2, part of Arms and Equipment Guide, part of Draconomicon, and the first Fighters Challenge module), Dragonlance stuff (Tree Lords, contributions to Otherlands and Tales of the Lance boxed set), and Realms stuff (Moonsea, contributions to Zhentil Keep boxed set, and to Warriors and Priests of the Realms).

My last product for the old TSR was the Realms adventure "Four From Cormyr" (and I never ended up getting my free copies! Bwahahaha!) which had delays in release because of that printer problem Sean mentioned. With the gaming market for freelancers dried up, I began writing for the "real world".

With freelancers back in use again, I've made inroads into getting back into gaming writing, but now as a supplement to my job, as opposed to the old days, where freelancing WAS my job. Thus far, I've done a portion of WotC's Star Wars "Coruscant and the Core Worlds," some web enhancements (including for Unapproachable East), and a "splat" book for KenzerCo's Kingdoms of Kalamar ("Stealth and Style"). " Oh, and I also did a chunk of a Chaosium Call of Cthulhu supplement that'll never see the light of day because the co-ordinator of the project dropped off the face of the Earth, apoarently!   

There..that should do it. And if anyone's ever in the New England area and goes to OGC Con in the summer, swing on by...I'll be one of the guests of honor again.  

We now return you to the topic in question:
Sean: Again, thanks for your reply. But really, no apology needed, though I appreciate the words. Seriously, I wasn't looking for an apology. Consider my initial remarks as my expressing a WTF moment that I believed was symptomatic of a bigger issue, namely that companies these days don't have the same degree of niceness that they used to.   

Jdvn1 and Edena: Thank you, and you're welcome!!!   

In General: I was telling my wife that I think the perfect thing would be a company that has the humanity and niceness of the old TSR and the business acumen of Hasbro.    While we're at it, I'll wish for a flying pony that breathes fire!


----------



## Pielorinho (Dec 3, 2005)

*Moderator's Notes*

*Whisperfoot*, we got rid of the rollseyes icon because it contributed to snarkiness in a way that doesn't fit with the board's tone.  Please don't do that again.

Everyone, I know this is a heated topic, but please respond to the thread only if you can do so with utmost civility and respect for other members of the board.  If you see someone posting inappropriately, please report their post and do not respond to it.

Personally, while I feel for the people who lost their jobs, I've got no interest in corporate politics at this level; I play D&D to escape from such concerns, and I moderate on this board because I love having a place to talk about D&D.  Threads like this are in keeping with the board's mission, of course, but when someone reports a post in them, I've got to come read them, and that makes me cranky, and a cranky moderator is not someone you want to get on your bad side .  So please don't post anything that will result in someone reporting your post.

Thanks!
Daniel


----------



## Pramas (Dec 3, 2005)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> If you mean John Rateliff, yeah, he was #8 on the list, above...




This is the third time poor John has been laid off too. First, he got it from TSR in their final days. Then he was laid off from WotC a few years ago. He was brought back on as a contractor maybe 18 months later. I had lunch with him a month ago and he told me he had finally been hired back as a regular staffer with benefits and all that he was quite happy about it. I hope he lands on his feet.


----------



## Turjan (Dec 3, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I think Hecatomb had a major negative impact at Wizards. I have at least two stores that are literally giving it away as prizes because no one will buy it. Wizards made a huge push with this "adult" game and I do not think it has done too well. The game play really stinks and the cards are very difficult to shuffle.



"Adult" game? Maybe. I think that's not the only problem. Here an excerpt from the product description:

_"To some players, antediluvian promises have been revealed: to he who can obliterate the universe, divine power is bequeathed, enough to recast existence in his own image. To this end, players need to tap the power of ancient gods of destruction, flirting with personal obliteration all the while."_

This makes me think what the target group is. Perhaps, megalomaniac academics ?


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## jgbrowning (Dec 3, 2005)

Pramas said:
			
		

> This is the third time poor John has been laid off too. First, he got it from TSR in their final days. Then he was laid off from WotC a few years ago. He was brought back on as a contractor maybe 18 months later. I had lunch with him a month ago and he told me he had finally been hired back as a regular staffer with benefits and all that he was quite happy about it. I hope he lands on his feet.




Damn, that *really* sucks. I've never met the man but I can feel dedication like that through the keyboard. I hope he does find work doing something he enjoys.

joe b.


----------



## Turjan (Dec 3, 2005)

Pramas said:
			
		

> This is the third time poor John has been laid off too. First, he got it from TSR in their final days. Then he was laid off from WotC a few years ago. He was brought back on as a contractor maybe 18 months later. I had lunch with him a month ago and he told me he had finally been hired back as a regular staffer with benefits and all that he was quite happy about it. I hope he lands on his feet.



This sounds horrible. I imagine that this doesn't exactly pamper the self-esteem.


----------



## Monte At Home (Dec 3, 2005)

seankreynolds said:
			
		

> Not that I was being snubbed or anything like that, it's just that I was in the circle, but not the inner circle where you actually learned to cast spells and stuff.




Sean, you weren't supposed to know about that.

And you certainly weren't supposed to mention it on a public messageboard.

You're going to have to be silenced permenently, now, veggie-boy.


----------



## diaglo (Dec 3, 2005)

Pramas said:
			
		

> This is the third time poor John has been laid off too. First, he got it from TSR in their final days. Then he was laid off from WotC a few years ago. He was brought back on as a contractor maybe 18 months later. I had lunch with him a month ago and he told me he had finally been hired back as a regular staffer with benefits and all that he was quite happy about it. I hope he lands on his feet.



yeah, that's why i asked. i knew he had been in and out of the TSR/WotC fold.

still liked (although i prefer the original more) his adaptation of the Keep on the Borderlands for the return to series.


----------



## William Ronald (Dec 3, 2005)

Well, there is some news on the Magic the Gathering front: The Mirage Set is being rereleased. Possibly this is a move to get some people who have left the CCG scene back into the fold.  (No card pun intended.)  Possibly WotC will 

I feel very bad for the people who lost their jobs, and I will look for their names on products.  It is hard to see good people like John Rateliff, Charles Ryan, Peter Archer, Michelle Lyons and everyone else let go.



			
				Sholari said:
			
		

> The sky may not be falling, but we shouldn't sit on our hands and pretend that this is a great thing either. What happened today may be good for Hasbro, but it is not good for D&D nor for D&D fans. I think that if enough D&D enthusiasts sent in some well-placed, polite letters stating their concerns for how Hasbro is managing D&D it would at least get people's attention and maybe make D&D not the easy place to cut in the future.




This is a good idea.  Does anyone have an idea of whom we should contact with our concerns?  I have seen several good products from WoTC and I think that the company has seen some support for D&D products.  (Okay, I don't know sales figures. However, I have seen some products under Charles Ryan's watch that I have liked.)


----------



## MerricB (Dec 4, 2005)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> Well, there is some news on the Magic the Gathering front: The Mirage Set is being rereleased.




It's for online play only. It isn't being "rereleased", it is being released for the first time in an online format. 

Cheers!


----------



## William Ronald (Dec 4, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> It's for online play only. It isn't being "rereleased", it is being released for the first time in an online format.
> 
> Cheers!





I stand corrected.  I read too fast.  Still, it might be an effort to try to lure in some old timers for the Magic the Gathering crowd.

Still waiting for a response on who to conatact at WoTC or Hasbro.  (I suppose if anyone here owns Hasbro stock, it might be worth mentioning in a letter.)


----------



## Urizen (Dec 4, 2005)

Pramas said:
			
		

> This is the third time poor John has been laid off too. First, he got it from TSR in their final days. Then he was laid off from WotC a few years ago. He was brought back on as a contractor maybe 18 months later. I had lunch with him a month ago and he told me he had finally been hired back as a regular staffer with benefits and all that he was quite happy about it. I hope he lands on his feet.




That's pure corporate evil.

I hope everyone on the list lands on their feet soon.


----------



## Darrin Drader (Dec 4, 2005)

Urizen said:
			
		

> That's pure corporate evil.




It is, and one of the worst things about this is that John is straight up, one of the nicest people you will ever meet. When I was a lowly CS grunt, there were times when someone would write us in desperation, looking for an obscure map out of a first or second edition product, and I decided I would try to be helpful and hunt it down for them. Normally that wasn't a major problem, I would just go to the library, make a photocopy, and send it out. Well at one point they decided to do some housecleaning in the library, and while they did keep at least one copy of everything, they boxed it all up, so it was completely inaccessible for months. Like I said, there were some customers where I understood their plight, they were being very polite, and I wanted to help, so I went to John (because I think he was in charge of the library), and asked if there was anything he could do for me. On several occasions he brought in his personal copies from home, and every time he had them for me the next day. He's also always willing to take some time to talk shop, on one occasion giving me ammo to use against someone who went on a tirade about how Eberron elves were supposedly a direct ripoff of Tolkien elves. 

I feel really sorry for those poor people who keep getting let go, crawl back in, get secure, only to get dumped again.There's been a few people who simply decided that it was better to leave what was otherwise a very cool place to work rather than live in constant fear of losing their livelihood. Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if there were a number of other companies in the industry, but really there aren't that many with full time staff positions. It's not the easiest industry to work in, and for WotC this is made much worse by the parent company.


----------



## Ranger REG (Dec 4, 2005)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> One thing about these comparisons between TSR in 90s and WotC--One of them is a company that may have seemed to treat employees fairly well but ran itself into the ground; another is a company that is trying to cut costs to keep inself not only afloat but also a healthy viable company.
> 
> I am presently working for a company which is shutting down at the end of the year, obviously resulting in everyone loosing their jobs, not just a few layoffs.  Until now, the company had been pretty good to its employees.



So... Which is the better (albeit still sucky) choice over the other? Would you have made the same choice if you were age 50 than you would at 30?


----------



## Jdvn1 (Dec 4, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Heh heh...I'm not quite sure how you mean it when you wrote that you're only 60% sure you know who I am, so permit me the luxury of a minor hijack here, and do a thumbnail:
> ...
> Hit my stride when I wound up doing a bunch of AD&D stuff (parts of 2nd Ed Monster Manual binder pages Vol 1 and 2, part of Arms and Equipment Guide, part of Draconomicon, and the first Fighters Challenge module), Dragonlance stuff (Tree Lords, contributions to Otherlands and Tales of the Lance boxed set), and Realms stuff (Moonsea, contributions to Zhentil Keep boxed set, and to Warriors and Priests of the Realms).



Yeah, I had read that you did some of this stuff. I was thinking, "Isn't he the guy that did..."

I don't keep up with who does what as much as I'd like.  SeanKReynolds I know a bit better because I've used some stuffs from his site.


			
				StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> While we're at it, I'll wish for a flying pony that breathes fire!



I recommend against this. You don't want to accidentally be burned to a crisp.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 4, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Yeah, I had read that you did some of this stuff. I was thinking, "Isn't he the guy that did..."




I never have been really good at getting my name out. I've been one of those writers that people say "OH...YOU'RE the guy who wrote this and that? Wow! Never knew who you were!" It always give me a chuckle!   I also get a kick out of overhearing gamers at OGC con describe me as "That old-school gamer guy" 



			
				Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> I don't keep up with who does what as much as I'd like.  SeanKReynolds I know a bit better because I've used some stuffs from his site.




As a rule, I only give the credits a cursory glance. I'm too excited to see what lies in the actual product!    And these days, I'm actually far more familiar with Sean's work than I am with my own!   I'm a big Realms buff, and run a Realms campaign, so if it's Realms, I have it, and use it. Again, I'll have people come up to me and say "Hey, in Four From Cormyr, there was this guy who did this-and-that...did you plan for him to be a so-and-so?" And I'd stand there smiling and nodding and saying "Why, yes! Yes, I did!" and inside going "I wrote this 8 years ago..._What _ guy??"   



			
				Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> I recommend against this. You don't want to accidentally be burned to a crisp.




Nonsense. My pony and I would be the bestest of friends. And we'd go off on all sorts of neat adventures. And those adventures would be immortalized in the heart-warming children's series "The Adventures of JT and My Little Pony of Flaming Death!" Copyright 2005, soon to become an award-winning d20 supplement!


----------



## Qualidar (Dec 4, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Oh, and I also did a chunk of a Chaosium Call of Cthulhu supplement that'll never see the light of day because the co-ordinator of the project dropped off the face of the Earth, apoarently!



Dropped off, or was _snatched_ off?


----------



## Truth Seeker (Dec 4, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Sean, you weren't supposed to know about that.
> 
> And you certainly weren't supposed to mention it on a public messageboard.
> 
> You're going to have to be silenced permenently, now, veggie-boy.



 

Monte's Mafia?


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 4, 2005)

Qualidar said:
			
		

> Dropped off, or was _snatched_ off?





:::gives a nice civilized golf clap:::

Oh, well played sir...VERY well played indeed!


----------



## Darrin Drader (Dec 4, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Monte's Mafia?




It goes higher than him even. There's a reason they call the illustrious leader 'Our God Gary'.... But like Sean, I'm not supposed to know about that either.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Dec 4, 2005)

Warbringer said:
			
		

> Hexagonal cardgame. Pretty good. Fanatsy/Horror focus. Check out the wizards site




Pentagonal, not hexagonal.


----------



## Ranger REG (Dec 4, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *Moderator's Notes*
> 
> *Whisperfoot*, we got rid of the rollseyes icon because it contributed to snarkiness in a way that doesn't fit with the board's tone.  Please don't do that again.



The board has a tone?  :\


----------



## nerfherder (Dec 5, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> The board has a tone?  :\



The one I can make out, judging by which comments get moderated out and which ones don't, is that it's ok to say that you hope someone gets sacked, but not ok to roll your eyes at such comments.

Cheers,
Liam


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 5, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> The one I can make out, judging by which comments get moderated out and which ones don't, is that it's ok to say that you hope someone gets sacked, but not ok to roll your eyes at such comments.
> 
> Cheers,
> Liam




Yeah, that's pretty much what I get out of it too. Chalk another one up for not moderating what is said, but how it is said (and for the record, I stand by the use of that smiley towards what can only be viewed as a completely uninformed, incorrect, and callouse comment).


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## Jdvn1 (Dec 5, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> I never have been really good at getting my name out. I've been one of those writers that people say "OH...YOU'RE the guy who wrote this and that? Wow! Never knew who you were!" It always give me a chuckle!   I also get a kick out of overhearing gamers at OGC con describe me as "That old-school gamer guy"



That should be your title. "That old-school gamer guy."  Sean's easier to recognize because his name is his screen name... unless, of course, your given name is StupidSmurf too. 

You put your name in your sig, like Charles Ryan, though. I like when designers do that, actually.


			
				StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> As a rule, I only give the credits a cursory glance. I'm too excited to see what lies in the actual product!



That's exactly what I do. If I remember to, I try to go back to the product (well after I've bought and used it) and try to remember some of the names on it... those that I read a lot (on a variety of products) stick in my head better.







			
				StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> And I'd stand there smiling and nodding and saying "Why, yes! Yes, I did!" and inside going "I wrote this 8 years ago..._What _ guy??"



I think this happens with everybody. I used to have a lot of people listen to my jokes--years later, they'll say something and I'll think, "Gosh that was weird..." and they'll say, "... You don't remember that? You made the joke back in (year)!"


			
				StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Nonsense. My pony and I would be the bestest of friends. And we'd go off on all sorts of neat adventures. And those adventures would be immortalized in the heart-warming children's series "The Adventures of JT and My Little Pony of Flaming Death!" Copyright 2005, soon to become an award-winning d20 supplement!



 If you make this and it becomes and award-winning d20 supplement, I'll buy eight copies. Assuming, of course, they aren't all burnt to a crisp first by the pony.


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## StupidSmurf (Dec 5, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> That should be your title. "That old-school gamer guy."  Sean's easier to recognize because his name is his screen name... unless, of course, your given name is StupidSmurf too.




I am relieved to say that StupidSmurf is not my real name! 



			
				Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> If you make this and it becomes and award-winning d20 supplement, I'll buy eight copies. Assuming, of course, they aren't all burnt to a crisp first by the pony.




Ok, you got a deal. I'll form my own d20 gaming company called "What the...? Games", and its two flagship products will be the abovementioned pony adventure, and Bo-Bo-Bo BoBo BoBo: The Roleplaying Game. Naturally, I'll have my own line of limited edition miniatures, each one a faithful, exact rendition of a shapeless blob. No two alike! Collect 'em all! If they really take off, I'll released "Shapeless Blob Combat: The Tabletop Tactical Rules". Rounding out my product line will be..."Collectible Card Game: The Collectible Card Game."


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## BradfordFerguson (Dec 5, 2005)

Charles,

I thought you did an excellent job there at Wizards.  Keep your head up


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## qstor (Dec 5, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> a "splat" book for KenzerCo's Kingdoms of Kalamar ("Stealth and Style").




Off topic but. I got that. Good book.

Good luck to all the fired employees. Hope the job market in the Seattle area is good.


Mike


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## Warbringer (Dec 5, 2005)

Pramas said:
			
		

> I had lunch with him a month ago and he told me he had finally been hired back as a regular staffer with benefits and all that he was quite happy about it.




Companies that do this should be punished in a way the law won't allow. This layloff is clearly looking like either a hasbro strategy, or a knee jerk reaction by senior management at WoTC to cut costs and cut them fast.

Also, I little "miffed" to hear that they have a new person in the position. I cannot think that any off the name of the list were fired with cause. Turely, I cannot communicate my ire with WoTC at the moment.

Happy Monday


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## StupidSmurf (Dec 5, 2005)

Warbringer said:
			
		

> Companies that do this should be punished in a way the law won't allow. This layloff is clearly looking like either a hasbro strategy, or a knee jerk reaction by senior management at WoTC to cut costs and cut them fast.
> 
> Also, I little "miffed" to hear that they have a new person in the position. I cannot think that any off the name of the list were fired with cause. Turely, I cannot communicate my ire with WoTC at the moment.
> 
> Happy Monday





Sadly, that seems to be one the most irritating (and common) flaws in American business. The knee-jerk reaction layoff.

Second on that list is the causes-of-the-day that management pursues, believing that if they only solve that one thing, everything else will fall into place (e.g. "No wearing casual clothes to work! Doing so erodes professionalism!"). And so they make people miserable for a while, until something ELSE attracts their attention, and they forget the original cause and go after the new one!


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## StupidSmurf (Dec 5, 2005)

qstor said:
			
		

> Off topic but. I got that. Good book.
> 
> Good luck to all the fired employees. Hope the job market in the Seattle area is good.
> 
> ...





Thanks! :-D


----------



## WayneLigon (Dec 6, 2005)

Erik Mona's Blog mentions the layoffs, plus has some interesting insights. The part where he's talking about what his job is like is particularly illuminating: 

_I had the Polyhedron job for about two years before Wizards of the Coast sold itself to Hasbro and business life changed from endless joy about how cool your job was to endless horror about who was going to get laid off next or when the company was going to get moved to a different state. With the hindsight of a few years a lot of those fears were unfounded (Wizards is still in the same building where I worked in 1999), but the constant layoffs really drained the fun out of that place for a couple of solid years._

I think like a lot of gamers I might have once fantisized what it would be to work with The Big Dogs. After seeing quality people let go, that desire really dropped off. After this, and a couple other things... hmm.


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## Staffan (Dec 6, 2005)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> With the hindsight of a few years a lot of those fears were unfounded (Wizards is still in the same building where I worked in 1999), but the constant layoffs really drained the fun out of that place for a couple of solid years.



Ironically, WOTC moved to a different building only a couple of weeks ago.


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## johnsemlak (Dec 6, 2005)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> The Big Dogs. After seeing people like Monte and Sean Reynods let go, that desire really dropped off.




Monte has posted several times that he was not let go; he left on his own accord.


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## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> I think like a lot of gamers I might have once fantisized what it would be to work with The Big Dogs.




i don't know many of those gamers. most of the gamers i knew were fantasizing about getting a job that paid real money. for us, we knew that the hobby wasn't going to support a family nor life.


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## Kanegrundar (Dec 6, 2005)

While I would daydream about a job designing and playing games for a living, I always came back to Diaglo's point very quickly.


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## johnsemlak (Dec 6, 2005)

As a Kid, I wasn't bothered by such inconvenient notions as 'reality'.  I don't think I dreamed too much of being a RPG designer but I'm sure back then I would have thought it would be awesome.  I do remember wanting to responed to an open call for adventure submissions in the old Polyhedron mag but I never got around to it.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Dec 6, 2005)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> As a Kid, I wasn't bothered by such inconvenient notions as 'reality'.  I don't think I dreamed too much of being a RPG designer but I'm sure back then I would have thought it would be awesome.  I do remember wanting to responed to an open call for adventure submissions in the old Polyhedron mag but I never got around to it.



 As a kid, sure.  I never wanted to be an RPG designer, I wanted to draw comic books, and be a cowboy, and be a pro baseball player, and so on.  However, those notions faded as I got into high school and had to think a bit more seriously about where I was headed in life.  (Although I initally entered college as a Commercial Art major with every intention of drawing comics for a living...that died off pretty quick though.)  There are people I've ran into in their 20's and 30's that still think it would be awesome to work for WotC or own their own game design studio as a full time job.  If you can do it great, but very VERY few people can do that.  There are some extremely talented designers that are still working a 9 to 5 because the game industry isn't where you typically find the money to live off of.


----------



## francisca (Dec 6, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> While I would daydream about a job designing and playing games for a living, I always came back to Diaglo's point very quickly.



Ayup.  One look at the bitching and moaning from people here about how everything is broken and how they'd fix it*, and I say to myself: Hell no, I wouldn't want to be the guy writing the core system.  Now writing adventures utilizing a ruleset, I'd enjoy that.

*I am, in fact, the pot in this case.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Dec 6, 2005)

francisca said:
			
		

> Ayup.  One look at the bitching and moaning from people here about how everything is broken and how they'd fix it*, and I say to myself: Hell no, I wouldn't want to be the guy writing the core system.  Now writing adventures utilizing a ruleset, I'd enjoy that.
> 
> *I am, in fact, the pot in this case.



 Yep.  Same here.  The other aspect is that I couldn't do it full time and live as comfortably as I am now.  I'd have to work my regular job and then basically work another job just to try and break into the industry and still would have to afterwards.  That leaves very little time for actually playing and enjoying the hobby.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Dec 6, 2005)

Nothing illustrates the point of just how low-end the gaming industry is in terms of payment, than this:

Dragon Magazine pay rate: .04 a word (that is, if I recall correctly...at least it was that a about ten years back)

Inc. Magazine pay rate: $1.00 a word. (ten years back) When the editor told me the rate I'd be getting for the article I wrote for them, it blew my mind.

Face it...freelance writing in the RP industry will only get you some pocket cash unless you hit it really big, and even then, financial security is not a given. Witness this entire thread. Most of the time, it's a labor of love. Even those writers who've gone off to do D&D novels (which I've always always always wanted to do....) don't have it easy all the time. I've talked with a few that have told me that writing D&D novels is a freaking nightmare.

Now, I'm not dissing the RP writing gig completely here. I'm glad I've done what I've done, and my ego enjoys the little dribs and drabs of recognition that pop up every so often. And I certainly look forward to doing more. But Mister Reality visited me once and said "You'll never earn a good living doing this...aim for the bigger stuff."

Tangent: Recently, I had occasion to use our friend the Internet to look up some stuff about the old Torg game. I did a bunch of TORG stuff, including the module that ended the entire campaign, and the only two gaming novels I've ever written! Well, one of the search results yielded an old bulletin board discussion, easily about 8 years ago, that seemed to imply that a group of gamers out there actually had banded together to actively hate me, for the stuff I did for (and supposedly TO) TORG. Never mind that what I did wrote precisely what the editors told me to (yes, it's the old "I was just following orders" explanation that I used to defend my participation in the reviled-by-many Castle Greyhawk adventure anthology! Hey, go with what works, no?). It was at that moment, reading a bulletin board that ceased to be relevant almost a decade ago, that I realized that I had truly arrived as a game writer...it's when you get a group of people who actually take out the time to hate you, then, yeah, you're complete


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist (Dec 6, 2005)

Makes me think of all the "Game Design Colleges" I see advertised on heavy rotation on G4 when I watch Call for Help in the AM.  There has to be at least half a dozen, and I know of half a dozen more, and they're constantly portraying "hawt girls" who love games and guys who are sitting around playing playstation "for homework" and "getting paid for it!".  

I foresee so ... so so many out of work "Game Designers" graduating from those colleges ... and that industry is a billion times larger than RPGs.  

I like to see my stuff "in print" and whatnot, but I don't harbor any illusions that even if I were the best game designer in the world, I'd be able to hook my family's future to the hobby.  It's too cyclical.  I foresee Hasbro slicing off everything about D&D other than a core few people in R&D and a pool of freelancers ... everything else from marketing to brand management to copyedit will be people entirely uninterested in the hobby.  And that's probably the most profitable way to run it.  

--fje


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## Jdvn1 (Dec 6, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> I am relieved to say that StupidSmurf is not my real name!



I'm glad! I was hoping parents wouldn't be that cruel...  


			
				StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Ok, you got a deal. I'll form my own d20 gaming company called "What the...? Games", and its two flagship products will be the abovementioned pony adventure, and Bo-Bo-Bo BoBo BoBo: The Roleplaying Game. Naturally, I'll have my own line of limited edition miniatures, each one a faithful, exact rendition of a shapeless blob. No two alike! Collect 'em all! If they really take off, I'll released "Shapeless Blob Combat: The Tabletop Tactical Rules". Rounding out my product line will be..."Collectible Card Game: The Collectible Card Game."



 You may be on to something here. "Straightforward rules, no frills." I'd buy some of this just because it'd end up being collectors items and interesting conversation pieces. "Remember that weird company way back when that decided it just didn't care anymore...?"


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## WizarDru (Dec 6, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Dragon Magazine pay rate: .04 a word (that is, if I recall correctly...at least it was that a about ten years back)
> 
> Inc. Magazine pay rate: $1.00 a word. (ten years back) When the editor told me the rate I'd be getting for the article I wrote for them, it blew my mind.




And the irony is that those rates have actually gone WAY DOWN since the 60s.  According the National Writers Union, they recommend you make AT LEAST $1 a word to make a living of about $40,000/year.  In the 60s, most magazines were paying at least $1/word....and they still are (which is a massive drop in pay, once you correct for inflation).  In 1966, Good Housekeeping actually paid *$5* a word.  They guesstimate that most staff writers make about $1.60-2.00 a word, including benefits.  That's making the assumption they write something on the odds of 22,000-30,000 words a year.  That data was from 2002, though, so it may have changed.  But I doubt for the better.


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist (Dec 6, 2005)

Yea.  Writing is one of those things that's shrunk to a niche profession.  

 

--fje


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## Reynard (Dec 6, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> And the irony is that those rates have actually gone WAY DOWN since the 60s.  According the National Writers Union, they recommend you make AT LEAST $1 a word to make a living of about $40,000/year.  In the 60s, most magazines were paying at least $1/word....and they still are (which is a massive drop in pay, once you correct for inflation).  In 1966, Good Housekeeping actually paid *$5* a word.  They guesstimate that most staff writers make about $1.60-2.00 a word, including benefits.  That's making the assumption they write something on the odds of 22,000-30,000 words a year.  That data was from 2002, though, so it may have changed.  But I doubt for the better.




Pardon me while I go kill myself.


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## tonym (Dec 6, 2005)

Reynard said:
			
		

> Pardon me while I go kill myself.




In 1966, Good Housekeeping would've paid $35 for that sentence.

Tony M


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## DaveMage (Dec 6, 2005)

tonym said:
			
		

> In 1966, Good Housekeeping would've paid $35 for that sentence.
> 
> Tony M




And that same amount today will buy you 3,500 words in an RPG book.


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## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> And that same amount today will buy you 3,500 words in an RPG book.



and basically translate into the same thing.


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## Fighter1 (Dec 6, 2005)

*Question?*

A question to those of you "in the know" about writing & RPG's:

Good Housekeeping, as far as I know (which I admit ain't much in this arena!) is no pushover magazine; I would think they paid $5 per word way back when because they demanded, and got, some of the best writing around (like Ford and the $5 a day wage) and thus those that wrote consistently for them were amongst the best. I would guess the Wall Street Journal pays more than other places for the same reason…but again admittedly I am just guessing by using logic and common sense and thus I could be way off base here.

Onto the Question:
Would you say that one of the problems with the pay scale is an oversupply of writers? Sort of like the NBA, and MLB: where there are so many teams out there the real talent gets diluted amongst the average, mediocre and poor. If the number of teams was reduced, the low performers would be squeezed out…in this case I mean simply that there are two many writers out there; if those low end guys got forced out then perhaps pay would get better?


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## StupidSmurf (Dec 6, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> And the irony is that those rates have actually gone WAY DOWN since the 60s.  According the National Writers Union, they recommend you make AT LEAST $1 a word to make a living of about $40,000/year.  In the 60s, most magazines were paying at least $1/word....and they still are (which is a massive drop in pay, once you correct for inflation).  In 1966, Good Housekeeping actually paid *$5* a word.  They guesstimate that most staff writers make about $1.60-2.00 a word, including benefits.  That's making the assumption they write something on the odds of 22,000-30,000 words a year.  That data was from 2002, though, so it may have changed.  But I doubt for the better.





The solution is to write a series of best-sellling novels. That's what I'm doing. I have this elaborate seven-book series about this kid who discovers he's actually a wizard! Can you believe it? He goes to a school where...check this out...EVERYONE's studying to be a wizard! Isn't that something? I'm sure it'll be a smash! My future is assured!


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 6, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> The solution is to write a series of best-sellling novels. That's what I'm doing. I have this elaborate seven-book series about this kid who discovers he's actually a wizard! Can you believe it? He goes to a school where...check this out...EVERYONE's studying to be a wizard! Isn't that something? I'm sure it'll be a smash! My future is assured!




Better than some hick farmboy discovering that he's got hidden magical powers and it's up to him to  fufill the prophecy without leaving his common man roots behind.


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## Aaron L (Dec 6, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Better than some hick farmboy discovering that he's got hidden magical powers and it's up to him to  fufill the prophecy without leaving his common man roots behind.





But isnt that, like, the same thing he said?


----------



## eyebeams (Dec 6, 2005)

Fighter1 said:
			
		

> A question to those of you "in the know" about writing & RPG's:
> 
> Good Housekeeping, as far as I know (which I admit ain't much in this arena!) is no pushover magazine; I would think they paid $5 per word way back when because they demanded, and got, some of the best writing around (like Ford and the $5 a day wage) and thus those that wrote consistently for them were amongst the best. I would guess the Wall Street Journal pays more than other places for the same reason…but again admittedly I am just guessing by using logic and common sense and thus I could be way off base here.
> 
> ...





This is sort of true. What actually happens is: 

1) Companies want to keep down costs, especially in an age of depressed demand for games. Game books are too cheap right now and are starting to "flip" from being priced as clearance items to being priced higher as specialty items. Labour is almost always the largest expense of any production, so it has to be cheap to keep costs unrealistically low. Unfortunately, the flip to specialty-item pricing is usually happening at the last possible moment to cover looming losses, so it doesn't so much get writers paid more as get them paid -- period.

2) Publishers who don't really care about quality hire writers on the basis that they are disposible, because they can always find an eager fan to replace a writer who asks for too much. This does not really mean that there are more *good* writers and other creatives. It means that good writers will either move to another industry or go into business for themselves, retarding development of the roleplaying form accordingly. This means that fans get lousy books and writers get lousy pay. 

Publishers who are a bit more conscientious have trouble competing (if they compete) with the low standards of some hack outfit that (to use an example drawn from nowhere in particular), pays a penny a word to staffers and sacks them to disguise their own ineptitude and avoid a scheduled raise. Plus, it lowers the standards in a fairly insular community.

3) Freelancers have no collective bargaining of consultative power aside from what they can acquire discreetly from their own networks. Most of the  networks where writers were supposed to talk about people who broke contracts and caused other problems have a managerial presence (because when all is said and done, the difference between the average publisher and a freelancer is just pretension and a couple of grand). Furthermore, the standard established in #2 makes writers concerned that they might be blacklisted for talking about this with absolute candor, especially when it comes to specific cases.


----------



## WayneLigon (Dec 6, 2005)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Monte has posted several times that he was not let go; he left on his own accord.



Noted and edited; thanks


----------



## WayneLigon (Dec 6, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Dragon Magazine pay rate: .04 a word (that is, if I recall correctly...at least it was that a about ten years back)




It's 'usually at a rate of about 5 cents per word' per their submissions FAQ. That's pretty amazing. Most places pay 1-3 cents a word for gaming material.


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## JamesDJarvis (Dec 6, 2005)

folks ranting about "quality" and publishers "that care"  should chill. Prices you can pay a writer are related to how many copies of a work you are going to sell as a publsiher.
Rpg products don't sell in very high volumes on the average. 

RPG authors get sci-fi magazine writers rates.  10 cents a word and much much less, often 5  cents or less.

If a magazine or book is only going to sell 4,000 copies one could hardly pay $1.00 per word, it'd be impossible actually,   but if it was to sell 300,000 or more copies the rate could indeed be higher then 5 cents a word.


----------



## Erik Mona (Dec 6, 2005)

If anyone knows of a game company that pays $.10/word, please let me know, as I'd like to start writing for them.

Dragon and Dungeon start at $.05/word and go up from there based on how dependable the freelancer is and whether or not we can sell more issues with him or her in the magazine. The list of people who fall into that last category is shorter than 20, and I'd guess most authors you haven't heard of make $.05 or $.06/word, whereas the "names" make from $.07/word to $.10/word. 

The sad fact of the matter is that the industry is so small (and shrinking) that freelance writing for RPGs will never be a sustainable career. Hell, working as a professional editor or game designer is hardly a sustainable career, and even the most "rock solid" company in terms of pay and benefits is subject to annual Christmas pogroms that sweep through and lay off people for reasons other than merit. Fun.

Basically, my best advice for anyone hoping to "make it" in this field: Get a wife or a husband with a good job.

--Erik


----------



## diaglo (Dec 6, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Basically, my best advice for anyone hoping to "make it" in this field: Get a wife or a husband with a good job.




my wife is triple boarded. 

i would write for free. if could write anything anyone would read. sadly, i suck at writing more than d02 does at being a worthwhile game.


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist (Dec 6, 2005)

I keep trying to convince my wife that she'd love to get a good job and support me in my endeavors to become a world-famous author. 

She said she would, but only if I promised to stop writing "crap with absolutely no cultural capital" like RPGs and write the great american break-out list-topper.  

Then she went and got knocked up and told me -I- needed to support -her- and the kid.

The nerve.

--fje


----------



## buzz (Dec 6, 2005)

It discussions like these that make me even more incredulous of people who complain about the cost of RPG books. But that's another ex-equine to bludgeon.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> It means that good writers will either move to another industry or go into business for themselves, retarding development of the roeplaying form accordingly.



I can understand how writers leaving the industry would be a bad thing (e.g., I used to read John Tynes blog pertty regularly; sad to see that he's all about video games now). But how does a writer starting their own company have a "retarding" effect? They're still working in the hobby and their work is available to us, right?


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist (Dec 6, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> It discussions like these that make me even more incredulous of people who complain about the cost of RPG books. But that's another ex-equine to bludgeon.
> 
> 
> I can understand how writers leaving the industry would be a bad thing (e.g., I used to read John Tynes blog pertty regularly; sad to see that he's all about video games now). But how does a writer starting their own company have a "retarding" effect? They're still working in the hobby and their work is available to us, right?




Personally?  By starting a new small company with tight margins and the inability to pay anybody else which tries to scrape by with bargain basement pricing.

Plus, even the best writers' work can be improved, on a project like RPG rules and balance and the like, when working in concert with other talented writers.

--fje


----------



## philreed (Dec 6, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> If anyone knows of a game company that pays $.10/word, please let me know, as I'd like to start writing for them.




Scrye pays me $0.10/word for articles.

I like writing for Scrye.


----------



## Erik Mona (Dec 6, 2005)

That is very surprising to hear (though a touch heartwarming). Any idea what Scrye quotes in terms of circulation?

--Erik


----------



## philreed (Dec 6, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> That is very surprising to hear (though a touch heartwarming). Any idea what Scrye quotes in terms of circulation?




Unfortunately, no. Sorry I can't be more helpful, Erik.


----------



## Ghostwind (Dec 7, 2005)

Fighter1 said:
			
		

> Would you say that one of the problems with the pay scale is an oversupply of writers? Sort of like the NBA, and MLB: where there are so many teams out there the real talent gets diluted amongst the average, mediocre and poor. If the number of teams was reduced, the low performers would be squeezed out…in this case I mean simply that there are two many writers out there; if those low end guys got forced out then perhaps pay would get better?




It's not so much an oversupply of writers as it is an under supply of smart retailers who choose their purchases wisely and demand that their distributors carry quality products and not everything under the sun that might make them a buck. If the distribution tier had the brains and guts to enact any form of quality control during the early days of d20, there would not have been such a drop in sales across the board. (But that's an argument for another thread.) Pay will never go up until RPGs begin to sell 5000+ copies consistently on a regular basis and not just a couple of times a year with the rest selling less than 500-1000 copies.

*Good* writers are worth their weight. They not only write to spec but hit their deadlines and have a proven track record of quality. Of all of the designers that have leaped into the d20 field since 3rd edition first came out, the number of writers that fit into this criteria is less than two dozen. 

I would love to make .07/word again from a d20 publisher. But the reality is that sales and development costs do not support that wage, nor are they likely too in the foreseeable future. The facts are that most publishers are paying .03/word to an established name and less to non-established authors. Some publishers are also only paying a flat fee (which is far less than even .01/word) in addition to a royalty percentage of sales (paid after dev. costs are met).

This really is a niche hobby and making a career from it is very difficult. The recent round of layoffs should further illustrate to everyone just how fickle sales and success are.


----------



## Fighter1 (Dec 7, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> It's not so much an oversupply of writers as it is an under supply of smart retailers who choose their purchases wisely and demand that their distributors carry quality products and not everything under the sun that might make them a buck. If the distribution tier had the brains and guts to enact any form of quality control during the early days of d20, there would not have been such a drop in sales across the board.




Whoa…hold on now; lets keep in mind that distributers and many retailers may or may not know anything about RPG’s; it is not like say Wine where if you know a few things you can at least tell the difference between 2-buck chuck and actual Napa wine.

For example: It is pretty easy to find WoTC stuff at every major book outlet; why; the name itself makes the quality check (no opinions please – this is just as an example) – Hasbro & WoTC, etc.




			
				Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Pay will never go up until RPGs begin to sell 5000+ copies consistently on a regular basis and not just a couple of times a year with the rest selling less than 500-1000 copies.




That only happened when say V3.0 & 3.5 happened; when everyone needed to get the new books to play the game. Now people just pick and choose what they want so the sales, compared to previously, are far lower. But RPG books are like reference books; once you got them you got them; not like a paperback novel where you keep buying new ones over and over.



			
				Ghostwind said:
			
		

> *Good* writers are worth their weight. They not only write to spec but hit their deadlines and have a proven track record of quality. Of all of the designers that have leaped into the d20 field since 3rd edition first came out, the number of writers that fit into this criteria is less than two dozen.
> 
> I would love to make .07/word again from a d20 publisher. But the reality is that sales and development costs do not support that wage, nor are they likely too in the foreseeable future. The facts are that most publishers are paying .03/word to an established name and less to non-established authors. Some publishers are also only paying a flat fee (which is far less than even .01/word) in addition to a royalty percentage of sales (paid after dev. costs are met).
> 
> This really is a niche hobby and making a career from it is very difficult. The recent round of layoffs should further illustrate to everyone just how fickle sales and success are.




Layoffs are part of every industry – let me tell ya form experience! They happen more in those industries that are dependant upon volume sales (like catering to the retail market). Plus, after reading all these threads on the actual industry that are out here over the past couple of weeks, the industry is full of free lancers at all levels so why in the world would anyone pay for an actual employee when they can get a private contractor for less?

In any event why all the doom and gloom people? Think about it; even if Hasbro nixed WoTC someone would pop in and take hold of the industry and make a living at it. There are MILLIONS of gamers worldwide.

After posting on this now – I think the big issue these days is like the post I made above; far to many players sucking sales away from the quality guys  - the highest quality guys in my limited experience are WoTC, Malkovich Press and Mongoose. I am sure there may be others (but of the 8-10 or so I have sampled and bought these three were the best by far) but if the field narrowed to three (or less) like these guys I would bet that profits and pay would be far better.


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## mhacdebhandia (Dec 7, 2005)

> Malkovich Press



I'm sure Manty Coke will be delighted to hear you like his company.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Dec 7, 2005)

Now playing: _"Being Monte Cook"_


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## William Ronald (Dec 7, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Now playing: _"Being Monte Cook"_





Is Cameron Diaz in that film?

I am surprised to hear about the rates that freelancers are paid, even though I have heard that it is hard to make a living in the RPG industry.

I imagine there may be some consolidation in the industry if sales reach a point where some companies may exit the market.  However, I think PDF based companies may be fairly robust.  Many are small companies where sales supplement the owners main sources of income.



> =Fighter1Think about it; even if Hasbro nixed WoTC someone would pop in and take hold of the industry and make a living at it. There are MILLIONS of gamers worldwide.




I agree that someone would buy WoTC and/or the D&D license if Hasbro ever decided that WoTC was not something it was interested in owning any longer.  Mind you, I see no hard evidence that Hasbro is interested in selling the Dungeons and Dragons license or WoTC, despite occasional reports of a possible sale.   

I suppose one thing we can do as consumers is to buy products that appeal to us and let different companies know what we want as gamers. 

I think


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## MongooseMatt (Dec 7, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> *Good* writers are worth their weight. They not only write to spec but hit their deadlines and have a proven track record of quality. Of all of the designers that have leaped into the d20 field since 3rd edition first came out, the number of writers that fit into this criteria is less than two dozen.




Amen to that.  There is far more to being a good writer than just turning in decent text. . .


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## eyebeams (Dec 7, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> I can understand how writers leaving the industry would be a bad thing (e.g., I used to read John Tynes blog pertty regularly; sad to see that he's all about video games now). But how does a writer starting their own company have a "retarding" effect? They're still working in the hobby and their work is available to us, right?




I mean the former circumstance more than the latter. Striking out on your own can be better or worse depending on your plan and partners. If you don't have any money and are holding down a full time job, it means you can't write that epic campaign you thought of or go for radical (and expensive, when using certain software and/or people) innovations in design and presentation. If you have money and time, though, you can do a great job. All the same, there's something to be said about developing your craft within the strictures provided by a client.


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## eyebeams (Dec 7, 2005)

JamesDJarvis said:
			
		

> folks ranting about "quality" and publishers "that care"  should chill.




Uh, no. The "Hire a fan," effect is pretty significant if you're writing something other than self-published stuff. It also means that lots of books suck and sell badly after the first buyers get stung.



> Prices you can pay a writer are related to how many copies of a work you are going to sell as a publsiher.
> Rpg products don't sell in very high volumes on the average.
> 
> RPG authors get sci-fi magazine writers rates.  10 cents a word and much much less, often 5  cents or less.
> ...




One real problem is that companies are pricing low to meet sell despite demand, instead of high to court a specialty market. What's really needed, though, is a split between high-selling, cheap games (for recuitment) and low-selling, pricey ones (for established game buyers).

I believe, but can't prove, that people who buy RPG products regularly will usually keep doing it even when they cost more, and those who are marginal buyers cannot be enticed by low prices. The former group buys games as artifacts in of themselves, regardless of play value, and the latter have no use for anything beyond core releases.


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## Tharian (Dec 7, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> One real problem is that companies are pricing low to meet sell despite demand, instead of high to court a specialty market. What's really needed, though, is a split between high-selling, cheap games (for recuitment) and low-selling, pricey ones (for established game buyers).
> 
> I believe, but can't prove, that people who buy RPG products regularly will usually keep doing it even when they cost more, and those who are marginal buyers cannot be enticed by low prices. The former group buys games as artifacts in of themselves, regardless of play value, and the latter have no use for anything beyond core releases.



Wait.  You mean that the current slew of products that are selling for $40 or more are low priced?  I think you already have your prefered model of lower-priced and higher-priced RPG products.  The catch is that there is no real source of information as to what may be causing the slump.  Instead there has been only supposition and conjecture.

Once the real reason has been discovered, then possible alternatives can be hammered out.


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## eyebeams (Dec 7, 2005)

Tharian said:
			
		

> Wait.  You mean that the current slew of products that are selling for $40 or more are low priced?




No, I mean that they need to be either cheaper or more expensive. 



> I think you already have your prefered model of lower-priced and higher-priced RPG products.




No, not really. There are a couple of high-priced products that are specific exceptions to the norm, that people complain about because they aren't used to them. A low-run RPG is a specialty item.



> The catch is that there is no real source of information as to what may be causing the slump.  Instead there has been only supposition and conjecture.




No, it is rather than there is no real source of information avaliable to the public. This is why the public's perception of the fortunes of the hobby are so off base. When I say I believe but cannot prove what I said, I'm talking specifically about how people would react to split pricing.


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## Erik Mona (Dec 7, 2005)

Fighter1 said:
			
		

> the highest quality guys in my limited experience are WoTC, Malkovich Press and Mongoose.




Malkovich! Malkovich!

--Erik


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## Fighter1 (Dec 7, 2005)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> I agree that someone would buy WoTC and/or the D&D license if Hasbro ever decided that WoTC was not something it was interested in owning any longer.  Mind you, I see no hard evidence that Hasbro is interested in selling the Dungeons and Dragons license or WoTC, despite occasional reports of a possible sale.
> 
> I suppose one thing we can do as consumers is to buy products that appeal to us and let different companies know what we want as gamers. I think




Even if the D&D Brand went away – others would take up the slack. I would bet Monte Cooks system would be the next thing (as after DnD I think it is the best; though I have not tried them all myself).

However I don’t think Hasbro would sell the DnD license; they would keep it in their back pocket in case they wanted it again. If they sell it off then it would make the news and the company that bought it would get big time public kudos (at least from the gaming world) for “saving” the name of DnD. Plus if Hasbro did nix it – they would get bad press for eliminating a legacy much like TSR did for nearly destroying it.


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## Ghostwind (Dec 7, 2005)

Fighter1 said:
			
		

> Whoa…hold on now; lets keep in mind that distributers and many retailers may or may not know anything about RPG’s; it is not like say Wine where if you know a few things you can at least tell the difference between 2-buck chuck and actual Napa wine.




Why is it such a hard stretch to ask that the game retailer know his product? Walk into any other type of retail business and you have a certain expectation that the employees and people who manage the store know their product enough to sell it to you. However, walk into a game store and ask the person behind the counter about an RPG or other game and you'll either get a "deer in the headlights look" or some lame BS about it that shows the person hasn't even tried to understand what he or she is selling. 

Let me be clear. I work in a gaming store. I am responsible for the games that are ordered and the games that are played. I make it a point to do everything I can to educate all other employees about games and gaming so they can at least make a somewhat informed opinion on the subject and not just say, "You'll have to ask Steve. He works Friday nights and all day Saturdays. Try then." (Which still happens, but not to the degree it did 2 years ago.)

As a retail buyer, I expect my distributor to have at least a passing familiarity with the products they offer. Do you know that almost no one in the sales staff for the largest US games distributor plays games at all? Wouldn't you think that as a company that specializes in selling games, you would *require* your employees to become knowledgable on the subject? Guess what? It is actively discouraged there. I know because I have several friends who work there and have been told point blank that knowing the games are not important, rather taking orders is. Order takers and not salesmen. It's all about the short term money and not a long term investment that will lead to more money. Now to be fair, I wouldn't expect my salesman to know everything about every game, but I do expect that he will be up to speed on the more popular games like Warmachine, Yu-Gi-Oh, Magic, Warhammer, and D&D.  And all too often that is not the case.

A significant percentage of gaming shops in the U.S. are owned by the hobby enthusiast, not the individual who is out to run the store like a business. The hobbyist stocks his favorite games and uses the store as a means to get his personal gaming stuff at retail cost (usually between 45-50% MSRP). When he places an order for product with his distributor, most likely he grabs his copy of GameTrade Magazine and orders directly from it, buying whatever looks good and relying that his sales rep will guide him on the hot ticket items. The sales rep isn't really a sales rep though. He's an order taker. He is relying that the retailer already knows the product and is ordering exactly what he needs to be successful and pay his bills. Whereas the individual who runs the store like a business looks at market research, his current budget, makes informed decisions, and orders based on what sells in his store. He already knows that it is his responsibility to know his product and his customers so he doesn't rely upon his sales rep to pad his order. He already has everything covered. He is also a very rare commodity in the world of retail gaming.

This is one reason why I have been a vocal proponent for the average gamer to be more active with their LGS and tell them specifically what products they want to see on their shelves and then follow through by making those purchases at the store. The decline in sales of RPGs isn't because gamers aren't buying. If that were the case, Gen Con would have been a miserable year instead of most manufacturers having stellar sales. The problem lies in a breakdown somewhere in the distribution to retail side of things.

One last thing, if Hasbro were to sell the D&D brand, it would be sold for no less than $30 million dollars (that figure comes from more than one persons who used to work for Wotc and were in positions to know and understand how much it would take). There are few companies that can bankroll that kind of money that would be able to effectively manage the brand and not cause more damage than has already been done. When I look at gaming companies that could even remotely do it based on sales trends and past history of growth, the only gaming company that could even be considered might be Mongoose (in about 5-10 years) assuming their rate of growth remains a constant upward curve. All others would fall way short of the mark.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 7, 2005)

Steve, you are en fuego with your last couple of posts. Couldn't agree more.


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## Ghostwind (Dec 7, 2005)

Thanks, Wulf. Can you tell the whole issue has been a bit of a thorn in my side lately?


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## Psion (Dec 7, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> One last thing, if Hasbro were to sell the D&D brand, it would be sold for no less than $30 million dollars (that figure comes from more than one persons who used to work for Wotc and were in positions to know and understand how much it would take).




Got it. Don't buy power ball tickets until it caps (taking into account taxes) 60 million or so.


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## MongooseMatt (Dec 7, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> I believe, but can't prove, that people who buy RPG products regularly will usually keep doing it even when they cost more, and those who are marginal buyers cannot be enticed by low prices. The former group buys games as artifacts in of themselves, regardless of play value, and the latter have no use for anything beyond core releases.




You are right, up to a point - the current $35-50 price bracket is the murky area and, from pretty much now onwards, you will see the market gravitating towards the extremes.  Most books will be $30 or less, with a few 'premium' items for more (often much more).  

RPGs are luxury items and, the thinking goes, if someone wants a book, they will buy it almost regardless of cost.  There are, however, limits and we are beginning to hit those.


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## buzz (Dec 7, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> I believe, but can't prove, that people who buy RPG products regularly will usually keep doing it even when they cost more, and those who are marginal buyers cannot be enticed by low prices. The former group buys games as artifacts in of themselves, regardless of play value, and the latter have no use for anything beyond core releases.



I completely agree with this. At least, it matches the experiences of myself and my three gaming groups. We are pretty much either total whores who continue a healthy purchasing habit no matter what, or people who buy virtually nothing except what is absolutely necessary.


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## buzz (Dec 7, 2005)

Tharian said:
			
		

> Wait.  You mean that the current slew of products that are selling for $40 or more are low priced?



As eyebeams and MongooseMatt have said, no. It's not quite high and not quite low. For products I want, I have no problem paying $40+, especially if it means financial stability for the publisher.

As for the low end (i.e., products I can be enticed to purchase on a whim), PDFs seem to be starting to fill that niche.


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## johnsemlak (Dec 7, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> We are pretty much either total whores who continue a healthy purchasing habit no matter what, or people who buy virtually nothing except what is absolutely necessary...




...which, if you are a gamer in a group where the DM has all the necessary materials, like mine, may be absolutely nothing. Several players in my group don't even have PHBs


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## Fighter1 (Dec 7, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Why is it such a hard stretch to ask that the game retailer know his product? Walk into any other type of retail business and you have a certain expectation that the employees and people who manage the store know their product enough to sell it to you. However, walk into a game store and ask the person behind the counter about an RPG or other game and you'll either get a "deer in the headlights look" or some lame BS about it that shows the person hasn't even tried to understand what he or she is selling.




In a gaming store – I see your point. I have not run into this - there is only one gaming store I go to though.



			
				Ghostwind said:
			
		

> As a retail buyer, I expect my distributor to have at least a passing familiarity with the products they offer. Do you know that almost no one in the sales staff for the largest US games distributor plays games at all? Wouldn't you think that as a company that specializes in selling games, you would *require* your employees to become knowledgeable on the subject?




Well yes I would actually – at the very least the marketing points such as age brackets for games, the styles involved (Eberron vs. Forgotten Realms vs. Greyhawk – WoTC vs. Mongoose vs. Atlas etc.), supplements, etc. I guess they don’t take their business seriously enough; but it appears that since they are the largest they don’t need to – at the moment that is.



			
				Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Guess what? It is actively discouraged there. I know because I have several friends who work there and have been told point blank that knowing the games are not important, rather taking orders is.




I am sure it’s not really discouraged; more like considered irrelevant to the sales. A distributor is all about sales so I would not condemn them for that; but I would condemn them for the lack of knowledge. I am sure that if they have other sorts of things they deal with (like say computer hardware) those sales people know something and are required to know it. But then again there is probably a lot more competition with computer hardware distributors than game distributors; thus the lack of focus on the products being sold.

However if this “largest” distributor actually has serious competition out there I don’t see how he could possibly stay on top…unless of course everyone else is doing exactly as he is.



			
				Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Order takers and not salesmen.




That depends on the product and the market. They are really one in the same. But to your point a Salesmen has to actually SELL the product – as in making an effort to get someone to buy it (regardless of how much of an effort that is). As I alluded to above it seems that perhaps this company has no real competitors and thus they are the default people to go to; and thus management ignores the _sales portion_.



			
				Ghostwind said:
			
		

> It's all about the short term money and not a long term investment that will lead to more money.




That is true; but then again it is not the job nor the function of a distributor to develop the market. After all how many advertisements have you ever seen from distributors? But you see them from the manufacturers and the retail outlets. Thus if the latter two do a bad job…




			
				Ghostwind said:
			
		

> A significant percentage of gaming shops in the U.S. are owned by the hobby enthusiast, not the individual who is out to run the store like a business. The hobbyist stocks his favorite games and uses the store as a means to get his personal gaming stuff at retail cost (usually between 45-50% MSRP). When he places an order for product with his distributor, most likely he grabs his copy of GameTrade Magazine and orders directly from it, buying whatever looks good and relying that his sales rep will guide him on the hot ticket items. The sales rep isn't really a sales rep though. He's an order taker. He is relying that the retailer already knows the product and is ordering exactly what he needs to be successful and pay his bills. Whereas the individual who runs the store like a business looks at market research, his current budget, makes informed decisions, and orders based on what sells in his store. He already knows that it is his responsibility to know his product and his customers so he doesn't rely upon his sales rep to pad his order. He already has everything covered. He is also a very rare commodity in the world of retail gaming.




And thus you see – the market is backwards here – not to mention that there is really little chance that a sales rep will know anywhere near as much as the store owner - thus I definitely see the lack of need for the sales reps to know what they are selling – that is given what the distribution market looks like.



			
				Ghostwind said:
			
		

> This is one reason why I have been a vocal proponent for the average gamer to be more active with their LGS and tell them specifically what products they want to see on their shelves and then follow through by making those purchases at the store. The decline in sales of RPGs isn't because gamers aren't buying. If that were the case, Gen Con would have been a miserable year instead of most manufacturers having stellar sales. The problem lies in a breakdown somewhere in the distribution to retail side of things.




One question here; when people keep talking about sales being down are they talking about dollars, units or both? With places like Amazon selling WoTC products at 35-40% off and they can buy in such huge bulk to get deep discounts at the wholesale level - I can see where perhaps dollar sales are down whilst unit sales are up.



			
				Ghostwind said:
			
		

> One last thing, if Hasbro were to sell the D&D brand, it would be sold for no less than $30 million dollars (that figure comes from more than one persons who used to work for Wotc and were in positions to know and understand how much it would take). There are few companies that can bankroll that kind of money that would be able to effectively manage the brand and not cause more damage than has already been done. When I look at gaming companies that could even remotely do it based on sales trends and past history of growth, the only gaming company that could even be considered might be Mongoose (in about 5-10 years) assuming their rate of growth remains a constant upward curve. All others would fall way short of the mark.




You are forgetting something here – Hasbro is a game/toy company – they jumped into the RPG business to expand their product lines (especially in older youth and the adult segments). So are several others such as Mattel, Fisher Price, Kenner, etc. These guys and others like them have the cash at hand to do this just as Hasbro did. – I am almost certain the first two I mentioned do.

30 million actually seems kind of low to me…but hey I ain’t an expert at the RPG business just using their products!


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## Voadam (Dec 7, 2005)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> ...which, if you are a gamer in a group where the DM has all the necessary materials, like mine, may be absolutely nothing. Several players in my group don't even have PHBs




Ditto.


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## Fighter1 (Dec 7, 2005)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> ...which, if you are a gamer in a group where the DM has all the necessary materials, like mine, may be absolutely nothing. Several players in my group don't even have PHBs




Huh? No PHB? NO PHB!? NO PHB!!!!!! Unheard of! It’s blasphemy!!!! Get out the torches and pitchforks! Put the crosses up in the town sqaure!!!! Get the oil! Get the hounds! We will vanquish these evil beings from our midst!!!!  

Or perhaps some people are just cheap? 

Just joking...or maybe not


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## William Ronald (Dec 7, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> This is one reason why I have been a vocal proponent for the average gamer to be more active with their LGS and tell them specifically what products they want to see on their shelves and then follow through by making those purchases at the store. The decline in sales of RPGs isn't because gamers aren't buying. If that were the case, Gen Con would have been a miserable year instead of most manufacturers having stellar sales. The problem lies in a breakdown somewhere in the distribution to retail side of things.




I think this is one of the big problems in the gaming industry: poor communications.  Like yourself, I have walked into stores where the staff new little about games and gaming. However, I do try to patronize stores which have a knowledgeable staff.

Possibly a good introductory product might make an impact in attracting new people to the industry.

As for who could afford to buy the D&D brand in the gaming industry, one possibility is Peter Adkison.  However, I don't see any indication of an upcoming sale of the license or WoTC.


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## DaveMage (Dec 7, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> One last thing, if Hasbro were to sell the D&D brand, it would be sold for no less than $30 million dollars...




Cool - it's nice to finally have a ball-park figure to target.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 7, 2005)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> I think this is one of the big problems in the gaming industry: poor communications.  Like yourself, I have walked into stores where the staff new little about games and gaming. However, I do try to patronize stores which have a knowledgeable staff.
> 
> Possibly a good introductory product might make an impact in attracting new people to the industry.
> 
> As for who could afford to buy the D&D brand in the gaming industry, one possibility is Peter Adkison.  However, I don't see any indication of an upcoming sale of the license or WoTC.




Why would peter buy D&D again?
WOTC was Peters company, He bought TSR for 1 million (or was it 5?) all those years ago, and the d20/ogl renessance was born. Eventually he sold WOTC to Hasbro, and bought Gencon from WOTC. 

As far as I understand Peter is very happy and satsfied just managing gencon, which grows every year.

As much as the man loves D&D why would he want to buy back the company or even the IP he sold, after years, for more then he sold it to begin with? 

He would REALLY have to love D&D a whole whole lot to take such a financial loss and commitment.


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 7, 2005)

I said this once before. If we as gamers want to have...better control, or say on the market, one very good way to "try" and do that is start buying stock in companies like WOTC.

Think about this for a second.. HAS stock is currently worth 20.50$ a share (as of 1 hour ago?) Thats half the price of their recent books.

For the same cost of one big WOTC book a person can buy two stocks (and thus have two votes at any shareholder meetings)

Now, the way public companies work is that most stockholders choose a proxy to vote for them. This one person holds many many proxy votes. This enables the stockholder to avoid attending every stockholder meeting and what not.

However, every, and i mean every stockholder, even someone with a single share, has a right to speak at these meetings.

If some gamers started to buy stock, in WOTC for example, at the very least once a year we'd be able to voice our conserns and other issues to the company brass directly.  

I doubt we'd ever have enough collectivly to have a major voting peice of the company, but we only really need a voice. 

Its just a pipe dream....


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## CharlesRyan (Dec 7, 2005)

Sorry I've been a little slow to get back on this thread--the last few days have been a little hectic. I just wanted to step back in and say thanks to everyone who posted so many kind and supportive comments.

My family and I really appreciate the support!


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## BrooklynKnight (Dec 7, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Sorry I've been a little slow to get back on this thread--the last few days have been a little hectic. I just wanted to step back in and say thanks to everyone who posted so many kind and supportive comments.
> 
> My family and I really appreciate the support!




In case I havnt already I'll do it now! thanks for all your hard work on our favorite game and I hope you and your family sees the holidays well!


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## kenobi65 (Dec 7, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> If some gamers started to buy stock, in WOTC for example, at the very least once a year we'd be able to voice our conserns and other issues to the company brass directly.




People do that all the time at various publicly-held companies.  They show up at the annual meeting, say, "I own three shares of your company, and I demand you do [X]."

They're generally seen as cranks, unfortunately.  And, in this case, the D&D players represent buyers of one of the smaller product lines in one of Hasbro's smaller divisions.  It's sort of like showing up at the Coca-Cola annual meeting, and complaining that you can't find Tab anywhere.


----------



## francisca (Dec 7, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Sorry I've been a little slow to get back on this thread--the last few days have been a little hectic. I just wanted to step back in and say thanks to everyone who posted so many kind and supportive comments.
> 
> My family and I really appreciate the support!



Best of luck to you.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Dec 7, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> People do that all the time at various publicly-held companies.  They show up at the annual meeting, say, "I own three shares of your company, and I demand you do [X]."
> 
> They're generally seen as cranks, unfortunately.  And, in this case, the D&D players represent buyers of one of the smaller product lines in one of Hasbro's smaller divisions.  It's sort of like showing up at the Coca-Cola annual meeting, and complaining that you can't find Tab anywhere.




First off I never said we should demand anything. I said it would enable us to have a voice where the company has to LISTEN. They dont have to act on what they hear, but it gives us a voice that is less easily ignored then emails to custserv.

That voice CAN be used to benefit, IF we pool together and decide what we want to say, and send our own proxy to relay these thoughts. OR if we appeared enmass as a group. 

Point is, a voice can be a powerfull thing. And if used intelligently and well it can sway other vote holders.

This is why in the modern buisness world boards of directors try as hard as possible to AVOID general votes on issues because they know how much power the voting stockholder can hold, and they fear it.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 7, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Point is, a voice can be a powerfull thing. And if used intelligently and well it can sway other vote holders.
> 
> This is why in the modern buisness world boards of directors try as hard as possible to AVOID general votes on issues because they know how much power the voting stockholder can hold, and they fear it.




Unfortunately, the truth is that the vast majority of the shares (and, thus, the votes) for most companies are held by institutional investors and / or company insiders.  Even if you *were* to try a grassroots movement to affect a vote, unless you got some of those holders of large numbers of shares to agree with you, it wouldn't have much of an effect, I fear.  

And, about the only thing that seems to get the attention of a signifcant percentage of votes is something that either (a) is going to materially affect the value of the stock, or (b) is a significant moral or ethical issue (e.g., when stockholders forced companies to not invest in South Africa during the 1980s).


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## buzz (Dec 7, 2005)

Fighter1 said:
			
		

> Or perhaps some people are just cheap?



Among gamers, you can shave the emoticon off that sentence.


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## Ranger REG (Dec 7, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> As much as the man loves D&D why would he want to buy back the company or even the IP he sold, after years, for more then he sold it to begin with?



Because he knows Hasbro would screw up and may have to sell WotC, and Peter can just get it for a much lower price than he sold it for, and still gain a profit.

Peter is a through-and-through businessman, especially when one learns patience and opportunity.

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if part of the sales agreement includes Peter getting first dib if Hasbro want to sell WotC in the future.


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## MerricB (Dec 7, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Sorry I've been a little slow to get back on this thread--the last few days have been a little hectic. I just wanted to step back in and say thanks to everyone who posted so many kind and supportive comments.
> 
> My family and I really appreciate the support!




Charles,

I really hope things go well for you from here. I also hope that you won't be disappearing from the 'net altogether.

Best wishes,
Merric


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## William Ronald (Dec 7, 2005)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Sorry I've been a little slow to get back on this thread--the last few days have been a little hectic. I just wanted to step back in and say thanks to everyone who posted so many kind and supportive comments.
> 
> My family and I really appreciate the support!




We're glad to be support you and the other people fired from WoTC.  Don't worry about the thread.  We will be here when you want to comment.  I hope that everything will improve in the near future.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 8, 2005)

Good luck Charles. You'll be missed.


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## diaglo (Dec 8, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Good luck Charles. You'll be missed.



edited. i just can't think of a good snappy comeback now. i got nothing.


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## Dinkeldog (Dec 8, 2005)

Diaglo, I know you didn't mean that, right?

Edit:  And nothing.  Diaglo, I think you need to take a couple days off.  This was completely inappropriate.

Edit2:  After talking to Diaglo, he clearly meant this as banter.  I asked him to come and edit so that his intentions were clear, though.


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## Maldin (Dec 9, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> ....(yes, it's the old "I was just following orders" explanation that I used to defend my participation in the reviled-by-many Castle Greyhawk adventure anthology! Hey, go with what works, no?). It was at that moment, reading a bulletin board that ceased to be relevant almost a decade ago, that I realized that I had truly arrived as a game writer...it's when you get a group of people who actually take out the time to hate you, then, yeah, you're complete



I hear  ya!! As the guy who redesigned the map for what many consider to be the "capital city of all RPGs", the City of Greyhawk (and all the baggage that comes with that city's real-world history), I've heard it all. It gets kinda wierd reading about yourself on the net from people who have never met you and know absolutely nothing about you.

Actually, I'd love to hear about your "just following orders" recounting of the Castle Greyhawk tale. I've always had my theories about the creation of that supplement. 

 Denis, aka "Maldin"
==============================
Maldin's Greyhawk    http://melkot.com
Check out the ton of edition-independent material on my website


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## seankreynolds (Dec 9, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Why would peter buy D&D again?
> WOTC was Peters company, He bought TSR for 1 million (or was it 5?) all those years ago, and the d20/ogl renessance was born. Eventually he sold WOTC to Hasbro, and bought Gencon from WOTC.





Steve's $30million estimate is much closer to the mark.


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## Mark CMG (Dec 9, 2005)

Maldin said:
			
		

> I hear  ya!! As the guy who redesigned the map for what many consider to be the "capital city of all RPGs", the City of Greyhawk (and all the baggage that comes with that city's real-world history), I've heard it all.





It's the kind of place that makes a bum feel like a king.  And it makes a king feel like some nutty, cuckoo, super-king.


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## diaglo (Dec 5, 2009)

here is the 2005 announcement where Charles Ryan et. al. got the boot.


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## jaerdaph (Dec 5, 2009)

diaglo said:


> here is the 2005 announcement where Charles Ryan et. al. got the boot.




Thank you diaglo "Ghost of Christmas Past" Ooi!


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## merelycompetent (Dec 6, 2009)

CharlesRyan said:


> Sorry I've been a little slow to get back on this thread--the last few days have been a little hectic. I just wanted to step back in and say thanks to everyone who posted so many kind and supportive comments.
> 
> My family and I really appreciate the support!




bad response - removed. Apologies.


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## diaglo (Oct 5, 2010)

was reminded of my biggest fanboi aka Charles Ryan (who sent me 100+ post cards) by Mistwell so i dug this thread back up.

seems Charles has played around with skills for d02 recently.


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## Saeviomagy (Oct 5, 2010)

Ghostwind said:


> Why is it such a hard stretch to ask that the game retailer know his product? Walk into any other type of retail business and you have a certain expectation that the employees and people who manage the store know their product enough to sell it to you.




Personally I haven't expected that for going on 5 years now in anything but the most specialist and enthusiast-run stores. Chain? Forget it. They'll barely know the contents of this week's catalog (to the extent where bringing the catalog to the store is almost mandatory so you can show them the picture of whatever it is that you want).

Gah, caught out by a necro-thread. I'd just assumed he'd been re-hired and re-fired...


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