# Capacity of Large Wooden Chest?



## Ogrork the Mighty (Sep 15, 2004)

Can someone tell me what the capacity of a large wooden chest is? I don't have my PH with me (at work   ) and it's not in the SRD (at least, I can't find it).


----------



## dcollins (Sep 15, 2004)

3.0 PHB, p. 110 says: 2 cubic feet. (No size association, just says "chest").

Personally I assume about 5,000 coins fit in a cubic foot.


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty (Sep 15, 2004)

Thanks!


----------



## tomBitonti (Sep 15, 2004)

*Numbers look good*

Working from:

The SG of gold is 19.3
The SG of 18ct yellow gold is about 15.5

A cu in of gold weighs about 11 oz.
A cu ft of gold weighs about 1200 lb.

A cu ft of 18ct yellow gold is about 960 lb.

960 lbs of gold coins is 9,600 coins (@ 1/10 lb per coin).

A 50% packing density **seems** reasonable; can anyone
back this up?


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty (Sep 15, 2004)

Hmmm. I guess there really isn't much of a max weight value for chests since it can pretty much hold as much weight as you can lift. Of course, at the extreme end of the scale the chest would probably buckle and collapse.

Does 3.0/3.5 consider weights to include the "bulk factor" or is it purely based on weight?

My real question is this: how can I determine how much weight a Leomund's Secret Chest holds? The spell only lists a volume, but the vast majority of items have weights, not volumes. I understand the common sense argument, but I've got players that will consider such a chest to have near limitless carrying capacity since there's no easy way to measure how full it is...


----------



## BSF (Sep 16, 2004)

tomBitonti said:
			
		

> 960 lbs of gold coins is 9,600 coins (@ 1/10 lb per coin).




Umm, it is 50 coins/lb, by the book.  

The Artificer's Handbook (Mystic Eye Games) has a good breakdown on Page 4.  For discussion purposes, assume that a gold coin equals an american nickel and falls in line with the 50 coins/lb standard.  

Let me see if I can get my math right here.  3200 coins would cover 7 in x 7 in x 3-3/4 in.  That breaks down to 64 piles of 50 coins, that are 3-3/4 in tall, or 2.87 cu in.  

So, 2 cu ft would hold approx 1204 50-coin stacks, or 60,200 coins.  It would also weigh 1204 pounds.

Maybe I can get die_kluge to drop in and verify that I am using his numbers correctly.  

(Yes, I know there might be an outcry that gold coins are the size of a nickel.  Remember that the rules say 50 coins/lb.  Yes there is also the logical problem of copper, gold, silver and platinum coins weighing the same unless they are different sizes.  What can I say, 3.x is designed with certain layers of abstraction involved.)


----------



## der_kluge (Sep 16, 2004)

Right. 3rd edition uses a 50 coins to 1 lb ratio.  Previous editions used a rather unrealistic 10:1 ratio.

Here is the text from Artificer's Handbook on the weight and volume of coins:

"Fifty gold coins weigh one pound. For discussion purposes, assume that a gold coin is the size of a U.S nickel (3/4 in. diameter). A stack of fifty nickels is 3-3/4 in. tall. 8 stacks deep by 8 stacks long, and 50 nickels high is 3,200 nickels and weighs 64 pounds (using our 50 coins=1 pound basis). These coins consume a space 7-in. x 7-in. x 3-3/4 in. (183.75 cubic inches). A
Staff of Power has a market price of 200,000 gold coins. This many coins takes up just over 11,484 cubic inches (957 cubic feet) which is a pile of coins 9.8-ft. x 9.8-ft. x 9.8-ft., and would weigh 2 tons (4,000 pounds)."

A chest at 2 cubic feet is 3,456 cubic inches (24*12*12).

Dividing 3,456 by 183.75 cubic inches per 3,200 coins yields 18.8 sets of 3,200 coins.

That's 60,186 gold coins in a standard chest.  That's assuming they are perfectly stacked, and probably also (at least mathematically) assumes that there is no space left over, which we know to be inaccurate, since coins are round, not square.  This would also weigh over 1,200 pounds.

I would say that a 50% ratio of just dumping coins in there would be adequate.  To test this, you could just find a container, measure it, and dump in some quarters and see what percentage of them you get in there based on optimum math.  That's a little anal retentive, though, even for me. 

However, it wou


----------



## der_kluge (Sep 16, 2004)

I also have this file saved on my hard drive, which I always found to be interesting:


HOW MUCH DOES A COIN WHEIGH?

                                (Source unknown)


A coin weighs 1.6 ounces avoirdupois or 1/10 pound American in official AD&D rules. This is, of course, just plain stupid.

I just got a catalogue of ancient and medieval coins ($95.00 to $2,000 plus per coin, if you're interested) and let me tell you something:

Great honking enormous coins like presented in AD&D were not at all common.

Okay, we already know that the standard unit of English currency was the penny or denier during the middle ages (penny=denier). The prototype ideal English penny was minted under William the Conquerer (some scholars may disagree with this). It was a coin that was two centimeters in diameter and made of high grade silver. It weighed, surprise, surprise, one pennyweight. How much was a pennyweight? It was legally defined as a weight equal to 1/240th a pound.

Thus, an English penny theoretically weighed 1/240th a pound. How much was a silver penny worth? Well, according to some sources I've read, you could buy what AD&D erroneously calls a "longsword" for around 20 to 40 pennies, depending on the century.

Okay, so for the sake of simplicity, we have a silver coin weighing 1/240th a pound (that's about 0.0667 common US ounces [avoir.] or 1.89 grams for our European readers). Around 20 to 40 of these silver coins could buy a "longsword".

Other common monetary units:

     Unit        Value
     --------------------------------------------------------------------
     Groat       2 pennies ("tuppence")
     Shilling    12 pence
     Sovereign   Variable, depending on gold content.
     Pound       240 pence--no pound coins were minted in medieval times.

Gold tends to value 10 to 50 times silver per weight depending upon market pressures.


__________________________________
me again... gold tends to weigh more, which this author doesn't really cover.  

According to Online conversion 1 pound equals 453.59237 grams.

And, according to another site I found, a nickel weighs approximately 5 grams.

That would give us a 90 nickels to 1 pound ratio.  More or less.

If we assume that gold nickel would weigh more than a standard nickel, a 50 gold nickels to 1 pound ratio wouldn't be out of the question.


----------



## tomBitonti (Sep 16, 2004)

*10' x 10' x 10' ????*

"Fifty gold coins weigh one pound. For discussion purposes, assume that a gold coin is the size of a U.S nickel (3/4 in. diameter). A stack of fifty nickels is 3-3/4 in. tall. 8 stacks deep by 8 stacks long, and 50 nickels high is 3,200 nickels and weighs 64 pounds (using our 50 coins=1 pound basis). These coins consume a space 7-in. x 7-in. x 3-3/4 in. (183.75 cubic inches). A
Staff of Power has a market price of 200,000 gold coins. This many coins takes up just over 11,484 cubic inches (957 cubic feet) which is a pile of coins 9.8-ft. x 9.8-ft. x 9.8-ft., and would weigh 2 tons (4,000 pounds)."

At 1000 lb / cu ft and 50 coins / lb that gives 50,000 coins / cu ft.
At 50% packing, thats 25,000 coins / cu ft, or 8 cu ft for 200,000 coins.
Not nearly a ten foot cube.

A 10' square has 1000 cu ft, or 25,000,000 coins at 50% packing.
That would weigh about 500,000 lbs.  (As gold is very malleable, I doubt
the packing density would remain at just 50%, as the bottom-most coins
were compressed by the upper coins.)


----------



## dcollins (Sep 16, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> The Artificer's Handbook (Mystic Eye Games) has a good breakdown on Page 4.  For discussion purposes, assume that a gold coin equals an american nickel and falls in line with the 50 coins/lb standard.




Note that 3.0 PHB p. 146 (not sure if it's also in 3.5) has a picture labelled "Gold piece [exact size]". It's significantly larger than a quarter, about half-dollar sized.


----------



## BSF (Sep 16, 2004)

So how thick would one of those coins have to be to weigh 1/50 of a pound?


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty (Sep 16, 2004)

From the Draconomicon (p. 278):

- a typical coin weighs 1/3 of an ounce (50 per lb.)
- a typical coin measures slightly more than 1" in diameter, 1/10" thick.
- a cubic foot holds approx 12,000 stacked coins (stacked, not loose)
- a cubic foot of loose coins fills approx 5 feet x 5 feet x 1/2" depth, or 3 feet x 3 feet by 1".


----------



## tomBitonti (Sep 16, 2004)

(1) a typical coin measures slightly more than 1" in diameter, 1/10" thick.
(2) a cubic foot holds approx 12,000 stacked coins (stacked, not loose)
(3) a cubic foot of loose coins fills approx 5 feet x 5 feet x 1/2" depth, or 3 feet x 3 feet by 1".

Working backwards;

(3) is OK:

One cu ft has 1728 cu in;

    5 ft x 5 ft x 0.5 in
    60 in x 60 in x 0.5 in
    1800 cu in

    3 ft x 3 ft x 1.0 in
    36 in x 36 in x 1.0 in
    1300 cu in

The first figure is probably close enough for gov't work;
it's a little low once you throw in the packing density.

The second figure is somewhat low, expecially when packing
is thrown in (a depth of 1.5 in probably is more correct,
with packing), but still close enough.

(2) is a bit off -- for stacked coins:

Working from the coin volume:
    pi * (0.5 in) ^ 2 * 0.10 in
yields
    0.075 cu in / coin

As a side note, based on this, a 75% packing should easily be
possible for stacked coins.

One cu ft has 1728 cu in; 0.075 cu in / coin gives us:

    23,000 coins / cu ft [1.00 pack]
    17,000 coins / cu ft [0.75 pack] (about)

That's with a simple rectangular stack, which is less dense than a
hexagonal pack.

(1) Doesn't jive with the figure of 50 coins / lb:

Working from 18 ct yellow gold @ 1000 lbs / sq ft:
    1000 lbs / (12 in) ^ 3
    1000 lbs / 1728 cu in
Or, 
    0.58 lb / cu in
    1.72 cu in / lb

Coin densities work out to:

    13.3 coins / cu in [1.00 pack]
    10.0 coins / cu in [0.75 pack]

That is:
    17.2 coins / lb (18 ct yellow gold)

For silver, one has:

      Silver SG: 10.5 gm / cc

However, this example doesn't use pure gold; instead,
"18 ct yellow gold" is used, with about 5/6 the density
of pure gold:

        Gold SG: 19.3 gm / cc
  18 CT Gold SG: 16.1 gm /cc

That gives:
    26.4 coins / lb (Silver)

There is a little improvement with tin, copper, and electrum:

         Tin SG: 7.3 gm /cc
    Electrum SG: 8.5 gm /cc
      Copper SG: 8.9 gm / cc

Giving coin yields:

    38.0 coins / lb (Tin)
    32.6 coins / lb (Electrum)
    31.1 coins / lb (Copper)

Allowing for further adulteration of the gold, the following
seem reasonable:

    gold:   20 coins / lb   [orig: 17.2]
    silver: 30 coins / lb   [orig: 26.4]
    copper: 35 coins / lb   [orig: 31.1]
    tin:    40 coins / lb   [orig: 38.0]

I've deliberately asjusted the counts high to allow for alloys
with lighter, lesser value metals.


----------

