# The Mandalorian | Official Trailer | Disney+ | Streaming Nov. 12



## trappedslider (Aug 24, 2019)

This looks good and with even more info reveled about Disney+ I may switch to it permanently and just pick up Netflix when new seasons of shows I like come on. 








						Disney+ will give subscribers four simultaneous streams and free 4K
					

Disney’s new streaming service is setting itself apart




					www.theverge.com
				












						The first Mandalorian trailer brings a little Mad Max to Star Wars
					

Featuring the “darker, freakier side of Star Wars.”




					www.theverge.com


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## Tonguez (Aug 24, 2019)

I just hope that he says nothing for the entire run of the show

but yes I do like the darker tone theyre going for


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## Morrus (Aug 24, 2019)

That looks so good!

Somebody in carbonite? It's become common practice since they tried it with Solo, then.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 24, 2019)

In the old legends material Han wasn't the first. 

 I gave it a like anyway, looks good so far and wanted to know more about some of the other characters. 

 Season 7 of the Clone Wars is incoming as well.

 The question is will the Mandalorian talk. 
 The Mandalorians were fleshed out alit in the old legends material.


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## MarkB (Aug 24, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Somebody in carbonite? It's become common practice since they tried it with Solo, then.



You'd certainly think so from how much it's used in various Star Wars games and other media. It's the downside of everyone extrapolating from limited examples - one bounty hunter brings in their target in carbonite, simply because they happened to be somewhere that had a carbon-freezing facility and a completely different dude used their bounty as a test subject, and suddenly every bounty hunter in Star Wars fiction is using it as a matter of course.

In the Bioware Star Wars games bounty hunters use wrist-mounted carbonite sprayers - no need for expensive, room-filling machinery to safely package your target, apparently, just give them a quick squirt and they're good to go.


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## MarkB (Aug 24, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> The Mandalorians were fleshed out alit in the old legends material.



Several times over, as I recall - at least, the Clone Wars cartoons (later built upon by Rebels) had a rather different take than the EU novels, which didn't always agree with each other. We'll have to see which way they take it in this series.


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## trappedslider (Aug 24, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> I just hope that he says nothing for the entire run of the show




Why?


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## Morrus (Aug 24, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> In the old legends material Han wasn't the first.




I dont know what "old legends" is, but I saw the movies, and he was defintely the first.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 24, 2019)

Morrus said:


> I dont know what "old legends" is, but I saw the movies, and he was defintely the first.




Legends is the old EU. All the old games, books, comics etc. 

 They had a planet where Carbonite was mined the Empress Teta system which was prominant in the Tales if the Jedi. 

 Legends was responsible for the Star Wars revival in the 90s and it's where Thrawns and the TIE Defender come from which have been added back into the new cannon. 

It's also where things like double bladed lightsabers and the planet of Coruscant come from so it still influences Star Wars now.

They also lifted a huge amount of plot from legends in the new trilogy with the names filed off.


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## Morrus (Aug 24, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Legends is the old EU. All the old games, books, comics etc.




OK, all the non-canon stuff. So Han Solo was the first, like I said.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 24, 2019)

Morrus said:


> OK, all the non-canon stuff. So Han Solo was the first, like I said.




 Disney canon. Not really well regarded, they just got Resistance canceled. 
 They're also losing money, the toys aren't selling, no one really cares about the new characters (polling on starwars.com) and they're heavily in debt. 

 Maybe they should have paid more attention to legends, it's better. 

 TLJ and Ross are almost recycling Dark Empire or most of the plot points. Badly and Dark Empire isn't that well regarded either. 

 Disney appears to be waking up though and they're not incapable of making decent Star Wars (Rebels, Rogue One). 

 The Mandalorian might even be good. Looks good. Maybe if they hold their breath and pray, or use Dave Filoni for storyboards.

Mand'oa.


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## Morrus (Aug 24, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Disney canon. Not really well regarded, they just got Resistance canceled.
> They're also losing money, the toys aren't selling, no one really cares about the new characters (polling on starwars.com) and they're heavily in debt.
> 
> Maybe they should have paid more attention to legends, it's better.
> ...




No idea what you're talking about. Like I said, I watch the films (and some of the TV, but I'm not a cartoon guy). I've no interest in the old proliferation of novels and comics and stuff. Han Solo was the first person in carbonite, despite whateve rnon-canon sources you list.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 24, 2019)

Morrus said:


> No idea what you're talking about. Like I said, I watch the films (and some of the TV, but I'm not a cartoon guy). I've no interest in the old proliferation of novels and comics and stuff. Han Solo was the first person in carbonite, despite whateve rnon-canon sources you list.




He's not the first in the new canon either, Rex got frozen iirc in The Clone Wars which is canon. Morrusfails@starwars.

C3PO in ESB also seems to know he should be quite safe if he survived which would indicate he's not the first.

Well he's not the first in new canon or old. Anakin also wanted to do in in TCW to avoid sensors.


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## Morrus (Aug 24, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> He's not the first in the new canon either, Rex got frozen iirc in The Clone Wars which is canon. Morrusfails@starwars.




Like I said, not a cartoon guy.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 25, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Zardnaar (Aug 25, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Like I said, not a cartoon guy.




 Still canon. 

 I recommend both Clone Wars and Rebels. Clone wars is aimed more at adults, Rebels more kids I suppose but it's a highlight of the new Disney canon, Resistance is outright aimed at kids but isn't very good IMHO and just got canceled. 

 TCW is so good they made Anakin a likeable character, better acting I suppose.


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## Legatus Legionis (Aug 25, 2019)

.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 25, 2019)

Apparently Dave Filoni is involved with the pilot.


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## Imaculata (Aug 25, 2019)

I'll say this much: It doesn't look bad. I'll probably give it a download watch.


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## ccs (Aug 25, 2019)

Note to self:  Sign up for Disney+ come Nov.

This looks sooo much better than Episode IX.


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## ccs (Aug 25, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Still canon.




Well, it's _a_ cannon, just not the only cannon....

Think of it as a Multi-verse Zard.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 25, 2019)

ccs said:


> Well, it's _a_ cannon, just not the only cannon....
> 
> Think of it as a Multi-verse Zard.




I kind of do, the old legends was a mixed bag. The best if it was damn though. 

 If you want a good Star Wars game you more or less have to play legends. EA dropped the ball and modders are still supporting old titles. Or redone them in HD.


Wonder if the show will dark empire Fett back, I think they're hinting he survived the sarlacc. Maybe offscreen/exposition or a later season. 

 Sabine will be alive in this timeframe. She will be around 28 or so. Be good to see her make an appearance at some point (not season 1).


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## ccs (Aug 25, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> If you want a good Star Wars game you more or less have to play legends. EA dropped the ball and modders are still supporting old titles. Or redone them in HD.




I'm not much of an computer/console gamer.  So personally _my_ approach to getting a good SW game is to:
Run or play in a SW (TT)RPG 
Get a minis game of X-Wing or Legion going at the local shop.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 25, 2019)

I do SW TT RPG, D6 1E and 2E. And d20 SWSE.


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## Istbor (Aug 26, 2019)

Looks worthy of Piracy.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 26, 2019)

Is that IG-88?

Consider my interest piqued.


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 26, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> As good as it looks, I can't afford to purchase Disney+, or any other streaming service.




Ive got my in-laws' netflix password and my sister-in-laws hulu password. We used to pay for Netflix, but we just don't watch enough TV to justify it. 

But even if we were made of money, I wouldn't pay the mouse a subscription fee anymore than I'd pay amazon a sub. 

They won't notice the "loss" from us watching this stuff on kodi, and if I couldn't get it there, I'd rather not watch any of it than give them money.


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## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

This looks really good.

I kind of hope they give Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson a cameo role so Oberyn can get his revenge.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 27, 2019)

I am pretty sure he was the first guy to be frozen in carbonite with the machine Lando had. It didn't sound like it was supposed to be used for that. Wether freezing people in carbonite was never done before I don't know. But I kinda doubt it was something commonly done.


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## Morrus (Aug 27, 2019)

I think this is set after RotJ. Part of me wishes they’d just said it was Boba Fett, escaped from the Sarlacc Pit.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 27, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am pretty sure he was the first guy to be frozen in carbonite with the machine Lando had. It didn't sound like it was supposed to be used for that. Wether freezing people in carbonite was never done before I don't know. But I kinda doubt it was something commonly done.




 It's not something that was done that often in Legends. In the RPGs it was suggested as a way to use ancient Sith in the modern era. 

 Morrus in the old legends Fett survived the Sarlacc. In the new stuff they've refused to confirm Fett's dead and his movie probably turned into the Mandalorian show. 

 Mandalorians haven't changed that much between the old 90s depictions and the new. They could fight Jedi and generally lost to Masters. The only real difference was culture on Mandalore when they were used in The Clone Wars. And they kind if retconned that in Rebels.

They're more or less space Spartans.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 27, 2019)

Morrus said:


> I think this is set after RotJ. Part of me wishes they’d just said it was Boba Fett, escaped from the Sarlacc Pit.




Right there with you.


Zardnaar said:


> It's not something that was done that often in Legends. In the RPGs it was suggested as a way to use ancient Sith in the modern era.
> 
> Morrus in the old legends Fett survived the Sarlacc. In the new stuff they've refused to confirm Fett's dead and his movie probably turned into the Mandalorian show.
> 
> ...




I'll always think of Canderous Ordo when I think of Mandalorians. That guy lived for a good fight.


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## MarkB (Aug 27, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am pretty sure he was the first guy to be frozen in carbonite with the machine Lando had. It didn't sound like it was supposed to be used for that. Wether freezing people in carbonite was never done before I don't know. But I kinda doubt it was something commonly done.



It was, at least, established as a workable process, to the extent that Threepio thought he'd be very safe in there, providing he'd survived the initial process.

Perhaps carbon freezing is commonly used on living beings - livestock or slaves - and the only reason it was considered dangerous on Bespin is because that particular facility wasn't designed to handle live cargo.


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## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

Morrus said:


> I think this is set after RotJ. Part of me wishes they’d just said it was Boba Fett, escaped from the Sarlacc Pit.




I'm mixed on this, and thus probably agree with the "part of me" part.

On one hand, Boba Fett was an icon of my youth and I always loved the idea that he survived the Sarlacc Pit. On the other, it might ruin the mystique if he survived. As a general rule, bringing back dead or missing characters usually seems to have less of an impact than just leaving it mysterious. It is sort of like discovering "Terra Incognita" and then realizing it was more interesting and mysterious when it was unknown.

That said, I suspect the Mandalorian will at least give us hints. Either the main character himself will mention his "prior life" and drop hints that _could _be interpreted as him being Boba, or they'll mention Boba at some point. I also wouldn't be surprised if Boba turns up as a crime boss. 

I suppose we could also read into their choice in setting it between episodes 6 and 7, which allows them to have a youngish Boba Fett. If we assume that Boba was 30-40ish in ROJ (he had a reputation and had presumably been around for awhile, so probably not younger than 30), he'd be 60-70ish in episodes 7-9 and thus definitely not playable by Pedro Pascal. But given that Pascal is 44, he could reasonably play Fett in an age range of 35-50ish.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 27, 2019)

Fett was around 32- 34 in RoTJ. 22 years passed between RotS and RotJ.

 I can't quite recall the time between AotC and RotS. A slightly older Fett makes an appearance in The Clone Wars.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 27, 2019)

BookBarbarian said:


> Right there with you.
> 
> 
> I'll always think of Canderous Ordo when I think of Mandalorians. That guy lived for a good fight.




Ah Canderous. What a meatbag.


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## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Fett was around 32- 34 in RoTJ. 22 years passed between RotS and RotJ.
> 
> I can't quite recall the time between AotC and RotS. A slightly older Fett makes an appearance in The Clone Wars.




Thanks. My point stands, then. Fett would be at least 35 in the Mandalorian, depending upon how long after RotJ it is set (assuming that's when it is set) - making Pascal the right age (he's 44). That could be coincidence, or it could be deliberate.

Now if we find that the Mandalorian is set closer to eps 7-9, Fett would in his early 60s making Pascal the wrong choice. but Werner Herzog?


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## Zardnaar (Aug 27, 2019)

I think I read the Mandalorian is around 6 years after RotJ. It's set after the collapse of central authority.
 So I would expect it it to be set closer to RotJ than TFA. 

 But yeah Fett wouldn't be to ancient. 

 In the old EU Fett had numerous disguised and sets of Mandalorian armor. 

 Never really thought about the Mandalorian might be Fett. 

 I don't expect a Fett appearance/reveal season 1 anyway.


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## Mercurius (Aug 28, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I think I read the Mandalorian is around 6 years after RotJ. It's set after the collapse of central authority.
> So I would expect it it to be set closer to RotJ than TFA.
> 
> But yeah Fett wouldn't be to ancient.
> ...




See, it just keeps improving the probability. 

If Boba was 32-34 when he "died," and the Mandalorian is set 6 years later, he'd be 38-40. Pascal is 44. Very close.

(I know I'm reaching, but it is fun speculating).


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## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> See, it just keeps improving the probability.
> 
> If Boba was 32-34 when he "died," and the Mandalorian is set 6 years later, he'd be 38-40. Pascal is 44. Very close.
> 
> (I know I'm reaching, but it is fun speculating).




 I don't mind speculation. 

 I can't remember if Bob's was 10 or 12 in AotC and I can't recall the exact timejump between AotC and RotS.


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## Hussar (Aug 28, 2019)

I've always been baffled by the popularity of Boba Fett.  A nothing character with a couple of throwaway lines killed off for a quick laugh.  

Why do people care?


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## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I've always been baffled by the popularity of Boba Fett.  A nothing character with a couple of throwaway lines killed off for a quick laugh.
> 
> Why do people care?




 Badass, armor, his overall look, and source material outside the movies. Videogames as well. 

He trained Jaina Solo to defeat her darkside brother. Taught her to fight dirty using shot gun pellets. Deflect that.


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## Mercurius (Aug 28, 2019)

"He's no good to me dead."

But yeah, the helmet. 

But I remember people being upset about his unceremonious (humorous) death.

On the other hand, he's a bit like the githyanki of Star Wars: when you grow up, he's not quite as amazingly cool as he seemed as a 12-year old.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

If you think The Mandalorians armor looks good, well you just explained the appeal. 

 Also Darth Revan used a Mandalorian mask and he's one of the more popular Sith Lord's. And the big reveal surrounding that mask removal.


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## Hussar (Aug 28, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Badass, armor, his overall look, and source material outside the movies. Videogames as well.
> 
> He trained Jaina Solo to defeat her darkside brother. Taught her to fight dirty using shot gun pellets. Deflect that.




What's a "Jaina Solo"?  Who is her brother and why should I possibly care?  And, of course, I can stop LASER beams, but, I can't stop shotgun pellets?  Yeah.  "Darth Revan"?  Some sort of bird sith lord?  Taps on windows and talks about how things are nevermore?  

God I loathe the EU.  What a hot mess of garbage that I so glad they ejected.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

It's funny.  People bitch about Rei as a Mary Sue, yet, now we have a character that can do everything better than everyone else, but, apparently, he's just cool? 

I freely admit that he's a popular character, for some very bizarre reason.  Frankly, it wasn't until the Prequels that I even knew that Boba Fett fandom was a thing.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

Hussar said:


> What's a "Jaina Solo"?  Who is her brother and why should I possibly care?  And, of course, I can stop LASER beams, but, I can't stop shotgun pellets?  Yeah.  "Darth Revan"?  Some sort of bird sith lord?  Taps on windows and talks about how things are nevermore?
> 
> God I loathe the EU.  What a hot mess of garbage that I so glad they ejected.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.
> 
> ...




 EU did have a lot if garbage in it but the best if it is better than Disney's efforts and it did revive Star Wars.

 The modern EU also lasted 23 years which is basically a generation of Star Wars fans. Millions played the video games as well. 

 And how is Revan any more absurd than Sideous?

 Fett's also the most expensive Star Wars figure iirc. His popularity started in the holiday special. It really took off in the RPG and 1991s Dark Empire.

 He wasn't a clear cut goodie like Luke, and be wasn't as dark as Jabba, Vader, and the Emperor. 

 Any hero that's to over the top goody two shoes is probably going to be rejected at least since the 90s.


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## ccs (Aug 28, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> *Badass, armor, his overall look*, and source material outside the movies. Videogames as well.
> 
> He trained Jaina Solo to defeat her darkside brother. Taught her to fight dirty using shot gun pellets. Deflect that.




*That's the reason right there.*

Fett's wild popularity started in '79 when he was introduced as a mail order promo action figure for ESB. 
_He was supposed to come with a missile firing backpack..... And then didn't._
His popularity was solely cemented by his badass look & his cool ship, his 29 words of dialogue, & the fact that he was pretty much a blank slate from ESB through the early 90s.

And then the EU happened.

But Fett was already a fan favorite.  Had been so for over a decade.  The EU simply capitalized on that (and likely tarnished it a bit.).


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## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

Fett EU was a mixed bag, can't recall anything about him dramatically awful but his trilogy wasn't that good either (Solos trilogy was great). 

 He resurrected the Mandalorians that was kind of cool. TV show seems similar to the old EU in the immediate aftermath of post Endor. New Disney EU hasn't hit the heights if the old but it's avoided the pits as well.

 If this show is good it might be the new Thrawn Trilogy for Disney. It looks good, reception has been positive online and I want to see it.


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## Morrus (Aug 28, 2019)

ccs said:


> And then the EU happened.




And the prequels, which completely stripped him of any mystery. Whoever asked to see The Man With No Name as a child?


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## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

Morrus said:


> And the prequels, which completely stripped him of any mystery. Whoever asked to see The Man With No Name as a child?




Can we call that the Anakin effect? 

 Kid Vader, AotC tweaked should have been part 1 IMHO. 

 Star Wars isn't perfect it has its ups and downs. 

 A warning. Avoid the Crystal Star and Children of the Jedi.

Positives of the Mandalorian from that trailer.

1. The armor
2. The look and feel of the scenary
3. The badass ex New Republic special forces lady. Tell me more. 
4. IG 88s in it. It's EU story was a bit meh, good candidate for better story.
5. The armor
6. Overall gritty feel 
7. The armor
8. Doesn't say anything
9. The armor
10. Faces down the death troopers from Rogue One.

 10 good reasons to watch it.


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## Hussar (Aug 28, 2019)

The EU canon has giant talking rabbits.  I think that pretty much sums up my views on the EU canon.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

Hussar said:


> The EU canon has giant talking rabbits.  I think that pretty much sums up my views on the EU canon.




As I said Disney hasn't reached the pits of the old EU. Solo EU was better, Disney death star origin story is better.


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## Morrus (Aug 28, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> A warning. Avoid the Crystal Star and Children of the Jedi.




I'm not sure you're fully comprhending my relationship with the EU.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

Morrus said:


> I'm not sure you're fully comprhending my relationship with the EU.




 Your life, don't care. Not going to insult you for your opinion.

 The best if the old EU is up there with ESB. The worst if it makes TLJ look like ESB. 

 It still influences the new and no EU would mean no Disney Star Wars.

 One would have thought they would have learned from the old EU. They didn't.


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## Morrus (Aug 28, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Your life, don't care.




Well, that escalated quickly. If you don't care about my opinion on the EU, stop talking to me about the EU. Pretty simple.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Well, that escalated quickly. If you don't care about my opinion, don't talk to me about it. Pretty simple.




 Context if you don't like the old EU but if you're a Star Wars fan between say 25 and 55 you grew up with it. 

 Games like KoToR sold millions of copies and you could play a Mandalorian in it. Well have one in your party.

 They also had Sabine Wren in Rebels and she is a Mandalorian as well. And she stole the show. 

 You were dismissing everything outside the movies and being aggressive about it. 

Disney can do what they like but I think the main problem was they aimed it at kids, the fanbase isn't kids and you need them to take their kids to the new movies and theme parks. 

 You are aware they canceled the latest show aimed at kids and the theme parks not doing so well. 

The Mandalorian is a lot grittier, people like Fett, Mandalorians and the old Knights of the Old Republic/Takes of the Jedi where they were heavily featured.

 Do you think it was an accident Lucas added Jango Fett to AoTC all those years ago. 

 Fett, Sabine, Cancerous, Cassius. Saints if Mand'oa. Trekkies have Klingon you can learn Mandalorian lol.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 28, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Ah Canderous. What a meatbag.




"And of course, they refer to meatbags as 'organics'. Unacceptable."
―HK-47



Hussar said:


> I've always been baffled by the popularity of Boba Fett.  A nothing character with a couple of throwaway lines killed off for a quick laugh.
> 
> Why do people care?




Probably the same reason I like voiceless protagonists in RPG video games over fully voiced ones. I get to write their backstories in my head.


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## Mercurius (Aug 28, 2019)

I'm in the middle of that age range, Zardnaar, grew up loving the original trilogy and playing with the action figures in the early 80s. I think I even saw all three movies in theaters when they came out, but am not sure about A New Hope as I was very young. But definitely Empire and Return. But I never read one EU book. Not one. I also never played any video games or watched the Clone Wars or anything other than the eight "episodes" and two anthology films.

I am just one person, but my guess is that the EU was read by only a small percentage of overall Star Wars fans, even if we consider only semi-serious fans. I think the issue some folks are having with your constant mention of it is that you speak of it like it is more central to the Star Wars oeuvre than it actually is, or at least is for 90% of fans.

I mean, EU is really nothing more than published fan fiction. Nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't really be mentioned alongside canon and kind of muddies the waters a bit.


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## Morrus (Aug 28, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Context if you don't like the old EU but if you're a Star Wars fan between say 25 and 55 you grew up with it.




I grew up with lots of things.


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## trappedslider (Aug 28, 2019)

As someone who didn't see the Original trilogy till the 90s (which means the special editions) and didn't read the books till late 00s and only played the pod racer game,and episode one's computer game,along with the Lego games here's my take :

Whose IG-88? real answer from someone who has no clue other than movies: He's that droid that stood with the other bounty hunters on the bridge in ESB or one like him?

Oh cool,he's wearing armor like fett,why is he wearing armor like that? What's Mandolarin?

(yes, I know who IG 88 really is or was in the old stuff and all that stuff)


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## Morrus (Aug 28, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> Whose IG-88? real answer from someone who has no clue other than movies: He's that droid that stood with the other bounty hunters on the bridge in ESB or one like him?




This one is a different robot - IG-11, I think they said.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 28, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Jacob Lewis (Aug 28, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> But I remember people being upset about his unceremonious (humorous) death.



_Return of the Jedi_ was the time when Lucas wanted to be done with Star Wars. He was sick of Hollywood shenanigans, going through several directors at this point, and finally settling for one who would allow him to direct him from the backseat. 

Lucas was not happy with the Sarlaac. Carrie Fisher, in particular, was brutal in her nickname for the poorly constructed prop. (You'll need to google or look up what she said as I won't challenge the filters or the CoC here.) There was disagreements on how to handle Fett's defeat. Lucas wanted to make it more epic, but budgets and effects being what they were limited his options. Frustrated, he finally just said "Toss him in the pit" and left the shoot for the day.


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## Hussar (Aug 29, 2019)

Again, not caring.  It was a throwaway character just like the bajillion other throwaway characters in Star Wars.  Only thing is, once the EU got rolling, EVERYONE got a backstory and a bloody novel.  It was ludicrous.

And, the EU is what's killing Star Wars now.  Grumbling fanboys who cannot bear to see any interpretation of the stories other than their own, who are so deeply embedded in the fandom that they cannot understand how they are choking the life from the IP and can't let it go.

See, because like @Mercurious above, I saw the originals in the theater.  I played with the toys.  Heck, even read the Thrawn books, because, well, they were pretty darn good.  But, that's about as far as it goes.  Played the old Tie fighter game back in the day too AIR.  But all that other stuff?  Totally bypassed me.  So, frankly, I really, really don't care.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

I'm terrible with names but just watched Deadpool the other day. 

 Just found out the NR ex commando was in that and Pedro was in GoT.

 I only recognised Gianocarlo from Breaking Bad. 

Derp.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 30, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Again, not caring.  It was a throwaway character just like the bajillion other throwaway characters in Star Wars.  Only thing is, once the EU got rolling, EVERYONE got a backstory and a bloody novel.  It was ludicrous.
> 
> And, the EU is what's killing Star Wars now.  Grumbling fanboys who cannot bear to see any interpretation of the stories other than their own, who are so deeply embedded in the fandom that they cannot understand how they are choking the life from the IP and can't let it go.



Well, the "old EU" is also what kept Star Wars a cash cow between the trilogies. If we didn't have that, chances are good there would be no new Star Wars at all, because it would have been forgotten.

Also it seems to be a false dichotomy to claim that new Star Wars could not possibly retain the EU fans. It's just there particular approach didn't work to retain them. And if the EU fans not watching Star Wars is what's "killing" Star Wars now, then it means that it should have taken a different approach to keep this EU fans, because clearly they are neccessary. 

That said, the claim that "EU fans are killing Star Wars now" seems quite questionable, I believe only the Solo movie wasn't a success. Maybe that was due to missteps in TLJ as critical fans claim, but they could _gasp_ be wrong about that and it was just that no one really cared that much about Han Solo's backstory. Or the people that would have cared where those terrible EU fans that kill Star Wars, and they had already a decent Han Solo backstory trilogy in novel form and didn't need a new take. 
But again, if the EU fans are killing Star Wars, then only because they are sizeable part of the Star Wars fandom, and it's not a good move to alienate them. 

But I honestly believe the EU has not that much to do with it. If anything, it's the reason people still care so much about Star Wars and its idiosyncrasies, because it kept the interest alive.

But I think it's also fairly easy to understand that people are not really happy if the Hero of a trilogy of movies turns into a failure that has given up on helping people and abandonded the family he gained in the trilogy. You don't need to be versed in the EU to think that maybe this is not the story that every fan of the OT wanted to see. I am not even sure if that is the story J.J.Abrahms wanted to see when he made TFA.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 31, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Well, the "old EU" is also what kept Star Wars a cash cow between the trilogies. If we didn't have that, chances are good there would be no new Star Wars at all, because it would have been forgotten.
> 
> Also it seems to be a false dichotomy to claim that new Star Wars could not possibly retain the EU fans. It's just there particular approach didn't work to retain them. And if the EU fans not watching Star Wars is what's "killing" Star Wars now, then it means that it should have taken a different approach to keep this EU fans, because clearly they are neccessary.
> 
> ...




 I think the treatment if Han and Luke in particular lost a lot of fans as well. Leia to a lesser extent. 

 Failing to develop the new characters as well such as Finn doing the coward to hero routine twice over.

 OT characters changed from ANH to ESB, imperious princess to base commander, farm boy to Jedi apprentice, mercenary pilot to heroic. Flipping Finn's potential romance angle with Rey to new relationship with new character and 0 chemistry from the actors.


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## Mercurius (Aug 31, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I think the treatment if Han and Luke in particular lost a lot of fans as well. Leia to a lesser extent.
> 
> Failing to develop the new characters as well such as Finn doing the coward to hero routine twice over.
> 
> OT characters changed from ANH to ESB, imperious princess to base commander, farm boy to Jedi apprentice, mercenary pilot to heroic. Flipping Finn's potential romance angle with Rey to new relationship with new character and 0 chemistry from the actors.




I agree with all of this, if from a less-invested place (I really like SW, but don't love it to the degree that you clearly do, so I can understand why this stuff would bother you so much).

Star Wars has never really done characters well, but Han, Luke and Leia--not to mention Obi-Wan, Vader, Lando and others--were all very distinct in the original trilogy. I won't even go into the prequels, but the characters have generally felt flat in the sequels, and it seems to have less to do with the actors than it does with the scripts. 

For instance, Oscar Isaac is one of my favorite actors of his generation (he was born in 1979, so is late Gen X/cusp of Millenial), but Dameron Poe is like a mash-up of the least interesting elements of Luke and Han. John Boyega has also played some good roles, but Finn must be the most annoying of the main characters. Adam Driver is a brilliant comedic and physical actor but just miscast, or poorly written. Daisy Ridley is probably the best of the new protags, in terms of combination of acting and script, but she has her own problems and hasn't really distinguished her own unique flavor of heroism.

But the treatment of Han and Luke is the worst. I don't mind Luke being troubled, or Han dying, but I just hate the feeling that their lives post Return of the Jedi were rather miserable. Obviously we can't know this, but that's the feeling I get from the sequels. It sort of makes that Ewok party seem rather hollow. Happily Ever After might be unrealistic, but maybe Somewhat Happily For Sometime After?


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## Hussar (Aug 31, 2019)

You misunderstand me.  EU fans are killing Star Wars, not because they aren't watching, but, because every single thing that comes out gets dogpiled and giant piles of feces flung around as hard as they can, no matter what.  

IOW, the movies haven't even been given a chance to succeed.  The notion that folks might not be bothered by Han, the amoral smuggler, being so stricken by his failure as a parent that he abandons Leia, as not being all that much of a stretch.  Remember, he didn't leave until AFTER Kylo Ren went evil.  

If your child turned out to be a mass murdering monster, it might put a strain on your marriage too.


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## Legatus Legionis (Aug 31, 2019)

.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 31, 2019)

Hussar said:


> You misunderstand me.  EU fans are killing Star Wars, not because they aren't watching, but, because every single thing that comes out gets dogpiled and giant piles of feces flung around as hard as they can, no matter what.
> 
> IOW, the movies haven't even been given a chance to succeed.  The notion that folks might not be bothered by Han, the amoral smuggler, being so stricken by his failure as a parent that he abandons Leia, as not being all that much of a stretch.  Remember, he didn't leave until AFTER Kylo Ren went evil.
> 
> If your child turned out to be a mass murdering monster, it might put a strain on your marriage too.




Han had the same story arch in the old EU.

 His son turned, and was killed by his sister. 

 But him and Leia still had their happy times. Luke got married, founded a Jedi academy, trained new Jedi. 

 Logical storytelling after RotJ yes?

 Also see why we're calling Disney creatively bankrupt? They can't even rip themselves off correctly. 

 I think we're already seeing a course correction. Resistance got cancelled and a new season of clone wars is being made.

 Mandalorian looks badass, getting races trailer reviews, original, grittier getting away from Skywalker's. 

 New trailer for Dark Empire I mean RoS is pushing OT stuff hard. 

 Disney is losing money, the lost money on a Star Wars movie and even casuals are not going to the Star Wars theme park in numbers. Oh the new toys aren't selling either or you can get them for 50 cents. 

Its more than just a few EU fans upset with Disney.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 31, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> One has to look back at the time Boba Fett was introduced.
> 
> Episode IV introduced the world to Darth Vader.
> 
> ...




Phasma was popular, she has a cool story in the new cannon. Never saw it on screen. Rey's force power thing, not put on screen. New Star Destroyers ate badass. Not seen on screen.

 Yet another character that wasn't developed properly. Interesting armor check, popular actor check, gets used as comic relief check.


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## Legatus Legionis (Aug 31, 2019)

.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 31, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Phasma was popular when she was first introduced.  And yay, it was another character that wasn't developed properly.  Interesting armor check, popular actress check, gets used as comic relief check.
> 
> She folded (and a future novel had to explain why she folded).
> 
> ...




Apparently she's not a brave person irvtrue believer in the New Order. Opportunistic.


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## trappedslider (Aug 31, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Episode V, everyone was afraid of Vader.  Imperial Officers were nothing to Vader.  Then when they introduced the bounty hunters, Vader stopped in front of Fett to give the order "No Disintegrate".  Of which Boba replied was a simple "As you wish."




What Fett was really saying here was "I love you."


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## Mercurius (Aug 31, 2019)

Hussar said:


> You misunderstand me.  EU fans are killing Star Wars, not because they aren't watching, but, because every single thing that comes out gets dogpiled and giant piles of feces flung around as hard as they can, no matter what.
> 
> IOW, the movies haven't even been given a chance to succeed.  The notion that folks might not be bothered by Han, the amoral smuggler, being so stricken by his failure as a parent that he abandons Leia, as not being all that much of a stretch.  Remember, he didn't leave until AFTER Kylo Ren went evil.
> 
> If your child turned out to be a mass murdering monster, it might put a strain on your marriage too.




This came after my post with no quotes, so am not sure if this is to me or Zardnaar.

Anyhow, I agree that there are rabid and unreasonable haters out there that muddy the waters - obviously. But the thing is, there's also fanboyism that will defend anything that comes out, always finding a way to like whatever the official product is, and accusing any kind of critique as haterism. So we end up in a very partisan reality of haters vs. fanboys, us vs. them, you're either with us or against us--which dominates geekdom, internet discussion in general, and culture and politics at large...and it seems to be getting worse on a daily basis.

My issue with the fanboyism is that it implies that any criticisms of something, in this case SW, are inherently based on hating or bad grapes etc. In other words, there are valid reasons to not like the new trilogy that have nothing to do with the EU, with hating, with excessive nerdery, misogyny, racism, etc. 

Zardnaar might be a bit dogged in his criticisms, but he clearly does so out of love for the franchise, and it seems to me that his critiques are pretty reasonable.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 31, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> This came after my post with no quotes, so am not sure if this is to me or Zardnaar.
> 
> Anyhow, I agree that there are rabid and unreasonable haters out there that muddy the waters - obviously. But the thing is, there's also fanboyism that will defend anything that comes out, always finding a way to like whatever the official product is, and accusing any kind of critique as haterism. So we end up in a very partisan reality of haters vs. fanboys, us vs. them, you're either with us or against us--which dominates geekdom, internet discussion in general, and culture and politics at large...and it seems to be getting worse on a daily basis.
> 
> ...




 Cheers if you don't like women Star Wars may not be the franchise for you. In the OT Leia comes across as the leader, then you find out  Mon Mothma is the leader.

 In the old EU she become the first leader of the New Republic, then Leia and when the EU ended the main protagonist was was female, the main galactic villain was female, and the source of all evil was female. The standout character of the last books was also female. 

 3 most popular characters outside the movies are probably Thrawn, Mara Jade and Ahsako Tano. 

 To be fair it's easier to develop characters in novels,even the OT would seem rushed in some ways but you only have two hours or so in a movie so a simple line of exposition can be used here and there. 

 You don't really need back stories for characters where it's implied by their position. Mon Mothma is the rebel leader she must have some skills related to it, Jedi Knights you would assume they would know the business end of a lightsaber.

 Fett stands up to Vader, he's a badass very simple it works well in the movie format. ANH established Vader as a villain, ESB made him a badass.


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 6, 2019)

Morrus said:


> And the prequels, which completely stripped him of any mystery. Whoever asked to see The Man With No Name as a child?



Only time the mysterious character like that got a backstory and it was good was Roland from the Dark Tower series. 



Hussar said:


> The EU canon has giant talking rabbits.  I think that pretty much sums up my views on the EU canon.




That is so vastly less silly than half the creatures in the movies, I don’t even know how to process the idea of using it as an example against the EU, even as someone whose only investment in the EU is playing the RPG and having a friend who wrote EU canon articles about Galactic linguistics, but otherwise is glad the EU is fully non-canonical.


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## Hussar (Sep 6, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Only time the mysterious character like that got a backstory and it was good was Roland from the Dark Tower series.
> 
> 
> 
> That is so vastly less silly than half the creatures in the movies, I don’t even know how to process the idea of using it as an example against the EU, even as someone whose only investment in the EU is playing the RPG and having a friend who wrote EU canon articles about Galactic linguistics, but otherwise is glad the EU is fully non-canonical.




I guess silly is in the eye of the beholder.  Me, adding Bugs Bunny to Star Wars is pretty darn silly.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 6, 2019)

That was the old Marvel comics early 80s.

The comebacks more 1991+ and Dark Horse comics.

The very early pre Heir to the Empire stuff is a bit crazy especially the comics. The Han stuff is well regarded, the Lando stuff not so much.

There's also Splinter of the Minds Eye which was a cheaper episode V written after ANH but before ESB. Vader was after a kyber crystal, Disney didn't invent those.

That along with the Droid cartoons, Ewok movies, Holiday Special not that well regarded.


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 6, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I guess silly is in the eye of the beholder.  Me, adding Bugs Bunny to Star Wars is pretty darn silly.



Most of Star Wars is at least as silly as that. 

Also, the Wookiees in the holiday special are incredibly ridiculous. Does that make Wookiees ridiculous as a concept? 

Nah.


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## BookBarbarian (Sep 6, 2019)

Once I was really determined to watch the Star Wars Holiday special. 20 minutes in I learned how weak my will really was.


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## Hussar (Sep 8, 2019)

@doctorbadwolf - you're missing my point.  "IT's CANON" is probably the weakest argument any Star Wars fan could possibly make since "IT'S CANON" applies to all sorts of really, really bad ideas.

Support your ideas another way.


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 8, 2019)

Hussar said:


> @doctorbadwolf - you're missing my point.  "IT's CANON" is probably the weakest argument any Star Wars fan could possibly make since "IT'S CANON" applies to all sorts of really, really bad ideas.
> 
> Support your ideas another way.



The hell you even talkin about? Where have I made anything like that argument? I literally just challenged the notion that talking rabbit people were all the “argument” one needs to show that the EU is bad. 

The EU is primarily bad because it undermined the film canon and a lot of it was written badly. 

But, for instance, Bill Slavicsek’s work on the West End Games Star Wars RPG was excellent, fun to use in an rpg, and well thought out.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 8, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> The hell you even talkin about? Where have I made anything like that argument? I literally just challenged the notion that talking rabbit people were all the “argument” one needs to show that the EU is bad.
> 
> The EU is primarily bad because it undermined the film canon and a lot of it was written badly.
> 
> But, for instance, Bill Slavicsek’s work on the West End Games Star Wars RPG was excellent, fun to use in an rpg, and well thought out.




 Any fan of the EU can tell you a lot of it was bad. 

 A lot of it was also good. 

Most was somewhere in the middle.


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