# Does he seem a bit lock-happy to anybody else?



## blackshirt5

I was talking to a few friends, and I was wondering, because this came to mind: Does it seem like Eric Noah closes a few too many threads?  I can understand closing the million and one BoEF threads and thinning the ranks down to one or two threads, but I've seen him close down a few threads lately that are kinda suspect.  He closed down RakeRon's thread on April 29th, about the policy of a local high school on terrorist attacks, without giving a reason, simply saying, "not appropriate."  I've seen him close down a few OT topics for no other reason than that they were OT(which his rules state that OT _polls_ aren't allowed, but it says nothing about OT topics.  IMHO, this board wouldn't be nearly as interesting without the OT topics.).

Does this seem a bit overboard to anybody else, or am I just going crazy?


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## EricNoah

*Re: Does he seem a bit out of control to anybody else?*



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *
> Does this seem a bit overboard to anybody else, or am I just going crazy? *




It's the latter.  

If you read the little announcement at the top of each forum, you can see that there are many reasons why a thread might get closed.  Piratecat and I and basically all the mods have had an especially active week or so due to the various BoEF threads, and the somewhat less-than-ideal arguments/fights going on in those.  

As far as the specificl thread mentioned -- it was clearly (to me, and I'm the one who makes the call, right?) a highly political thread that had nowhere to go but downhill from there.  Sometimes I'm just guessing where a thread will be heading; most of the time, though, I pretty much *know* because of dealing with similar things in the past here on the boards.

Edit: w/regard to other OT posts closed -- I'm sorry but you'll have to point me to specific examples as I'm not aware of any that were closed simply for being off-topic.  Most closures are either because people are being nasty to each other, or are beginning to drag politics into the discussion.


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## blackshirt5

I think that it's more than a bit arrogant to just say that you "know" how a thread is going to go.  Do you know what's in RakeRon or for that matter anybody else's minds?  Believe me, I know RakeRon(he's sitting nearby watching Angcuru play Robotech actually), and I've known him for years, and even I don't know what goes on in that freak's mind.  However, I'll say that he wasn't being political, he was asking other people if they thought the school had bad policy.  To say that it is "clearly" highly political is pretty false.

And why would it automatically be your call?  Just because it used to be your site?


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## EricNoah

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *I think that it's more than a bit arrogant to just say that you "know" how a thread is going to go.  Do you know what's in RakeRon or for that matter anybody else's minds?  Believe me, I know RakeRon(he's sitting nearby watching Angcuru play Robotech actually), and I've known him for years, and even I don't know what goes on in that freak's mind.  However, I'll say that he wasn't being political, he was asking other people if they thought the school had bad policy.  To say that it is "clearly" highly political is pretty false.
> 
> And why would it automatically be your call?  Just because it used to be your site? *




Because I'm one of the administrators here?  I dunno, that's how it works -- each mod and admin has the authority to close a thread if he thinks it's going to be a problem or if it has become a problem.

Let me ask you this:  how does a school set its policies?  They're set by a school board.  Where does the school board come from?  School board members are elected officials.  There's no way that conversation could have gone anywhere but political.  So, to me, that means the thread was not appropriate for EN World.


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## Tiefling

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *And why would it automatically be your call?  Just because it used to be your site? *




Because he's a moderator, silly.


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## blackshirt5

So, why were you chosen to be an administrator?

Personally, I'd like to see a bit more of a committee decision on locking threads, since apparently anything could be connected to politics using the "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" style of reasoning that you seemed to use to close the aforementioned thread.

And if you looked at the thread, you would've seen that they were getting input from teachers, students, and many different areas of life, talking about school policy.  It didn't HAVE to go political, you decided to make the assumption that it was gonna become political, even though it hadn't, and made what seems to be a fairly arbitrary decision to slam the gate on that thread.


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## EricNoah

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *So, why were you chosen to be an administrator?
> 
> Personally, I'd like to see a bit more of a committee decision on locking threads, since apparently anything could be connected to politics using the "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" style of reasoning that you seemed to use to close the aforementioned thread. *




Well, you have your ideas about how the site should be run, and we have ours.  Here's how it works here:  Russ has his rules, and then he picks people who will act as his eyes and ears when he can't be around.  We each, individually, try to make the choices we think he would make. 

You also need to know that we do, often, "meet" in the mod's forum to discuss various threads.  If we're not sure, we ask for opinions.  If we are pretty sure, we go ahead and close the thread.  We might talk about it afterwards, but sometimes we don't.    

Russ has done his best to make it clear that the operations of the forum here are not done democracy-style.  It's his site, and we as mods and administrators do our best to enforce the letter (and more importantly) the spirit of the rules he has set up.  

As to how I became an administrator ... Russ and I are friends, when I passed my old forums over to him he and I really saw eye-to-eye on how they should be run, and so he kept the same rules that I had because they seemed to work very well.  I participate as an administrator because I continue to enjoy hanging out with the folks here and I enjoy helping to keep it a nice place for folks to discuss D&D and D20 stuff.


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## blackshirt5

So, you meet and discuss various threads in the mods board.  Let me ask though, did you discuss RakeRon's thread, or did you just make a unilateral decision based on what you guessed the thread was gonna turn into(which again I say is a bad policy, it's punishing people for what you believe they might do or say.  No offense, but that sounds pretty facist to me)?  I think that closing a thread before people say things you think they'll say(even if they do eventually say it) will only cause more bad blood and nasty feelings.  You have to let people say what they're gonna say and take the consequences, not punish them before they say what you _think_ they *might* say.


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## Umbran

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *So, why were you chosen to be an administrator?*




'Cause he knows what the heck he's doin'.  He's been doin' it for quite some time now, y'know.  



> *Personally, I'd like to see a bit more of a committee decision on locking threads, since apparently anything could be connected to politics using the "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" style of reasoning that you seemed to use to close the aforementioned thread.*




Well, the basic precepts under which this place operates have worked, and worked well, for some years now, and have fairly obviously served to keep the boards a wonderful, civil place.  "Teaching your grandmother (or Eric's Grandma, in this case) to suck eggs" is a pretty nasty sounding colloquialism, but a bit fitting.  

The mods and admins of EN World have proven many times over that they know what they are doing.  As a matter of practicality, this place _cannot_ be a democracy.  That means, by extension, that occasionally you may have what you feel is a promising thread closed.  Such is the price of all the rest of the goodies we have here, and it's worth paying.


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## EricNoah

Closing a thread isn't a punishment.  It's a way to stop a conversation that's not appropriate for EN World.  I felt the entire topic was just not appropriate, so I closed the thread.  I really don't have much more to say about it.


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## tburdett

Moderation is a necessary evil.

It is necessary because many people take advantage of the fact that there is relative anonymity when posting here.  They post things that they would not otherwise say because there is no fear of reprisal.

It is evil because we place such a high value on the right to speak freely.  That right doesn't apply here, but it does not lessen the evil of censorship.


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## blackshirt5

*THIS WAS POSTED BY ANGCURU! MY BAD! Blackshirt forgot to log out.*

oops.


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## jdavis

Thread on a local High School's policy on Terrorist attacks, gee that doesn't sound like it would blow up in to a heated political arguement...... Personally I'd of closed it too, now if it was a local High School's policy on roleplaying games you might have something to be upset about. Sounds like you are upset because it was one of your friends threads and not because it was or was not appropriate. Besides I rather have some OT threads closed early than have the board degenerate into namecalling and silliness, that's what every other messageboard on the internet is for.


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## Angcuru

**Dons Eyeglasses**

_AHEM._  While I am perhaps somewhat reluctant to come to the defense of someone so malicious as Blackshirt , this is a topic well worth discussing.  While EricNoah closes down many threads that need to be closed, he closes many more than any of the other mods.  Perhaps he is a bit more vigilant, but perhaps he is; as Blackshirt stated:  a bit lockhappy.



			
				EricNoah said:
			
		

> *It's the latter.
> *




With all due respect, starting off your argument with what is in effect an insult in reply to a question posted to people _other than yourself_ is not a good way to begin your  or argument or defense, if you wish to put it that way.



> *
> If you read the little announcement at the top of each forum, you can see that there are many reasons why a thread might get closed.  Piratecat and I and basically all the mods have had an especially active week or so due to the various BoEF threads, and the somewhat less-than-ideal arguments/fights going on in those.  *




Did it ever occur to you that perhaps he did look, decided that perhaps those reasons did not agree to him, and proceeded to inquire as to why the rules are the way they are?  A word to the wise:  Sarcasm does nothing but make the speaker's opinion that much less appealing.

Yes, you mods have had your hands full with all the banter about the BoEF currently in development, but I fail to see what this has to do with the topic at hand, Eric.



> *
> As far as the specificl thread mentioned -- it was clearly (to me, and I'm the one who makes the call, right?) a highly political thread that had nowhere to go but downhill from there.  Sometimes I'm just guessing where a thread will be heading; most of the time, though, I pretty much *know* because of dealing with similar things in the past here on the boards.
> *




Clarity is relative to the perciever.  And while you make SOME of the calls, you do not make them all, remember that.  The thread was nowhere near political, from my viewpoint, and I should know, I spend a great deal of my time discussing politics.  Mentioning once in a broad conversation how an offical on the  School Board had seemed to overstep his boundaries is SLIGHTLY political, yet not enough to justify the locking of a thread.  If the speaker had outright mentioned (without provocation) that said official was abusing his power and should perhaps be removed is a bit more political, and may give cause to be wary of the thread, but still not enough to justify the locking.  

So you admit that you were just guessing, otherwise you would not have mentioned this tendency of yours.  So you are able to *KNOW* how a conversation will turn simply because past conversations had done so a few times in the past?  A hunch is not a good enough reason to close a thread:  factual evidence such as text authored by a participant in the conversation for this particular debate showing that the speaker is actively seeking to create trouble or turn the converstaion towards OBVIOUS politics; is.

And there is one small thing that I'd like to add.  Eric, your Avatar IS a picture of a guy with a cocky smirk on his face, after all.  It tends to lend your writing on the boards a bit of a "high and mighty" attitude that really puts people off.  Something silly and humorous such as a cat with an eye patch and a hook-hand gives writing a light-hearted feel, making the reader a bit more accepting to what they read.  But then again, this is just my perception.


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## HellHound

I think the priority has to be set here...

There SHOULDN'T be a "committee", nor should anyone feel they have the right to post anything on the forums.

The reality is that these forums are paid for out of someone's pocket. As long as that person pays for us to be able to talk on them, that person, and NO ONE ELSE, has the right to tell us what to do on the forums.


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## hong

*twitch*


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## Angcuru

But is Eric dishing out this cash?  Cause if he isn't I see no reason to put up with someone whom I view to be obnoxious and drunk with the illusion of power, considering your statement.

BTW - No intent of insult or mockery, this is simple the way I view EricNoah.


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## jgbrowning

hong said:
			
		

> **twitch* *




*double twitch*

guys, we all understand you're questioning eric's decision.
we all understand you think he may have been unfair.

But do you understand that, metaphorically speaking, you've just walked into his house and told him how to behave? regardless of your point-of-view (or relative arguementative theories), that's bad taste.

Publicly "calling-out" a moderator is always a bad idea. That's why there's private messages or e-mail.


joe b.


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## Eridanis

*Re: *Dons Eyeglasses**



			
				Angcuru said:
			
		

> _AHEM._While EricNoah closes down many threads that need to be closed, he closes many more than any of the other mods.



Hmm. Links to closed threads, please? From my perspective, I rarely see more than one locked thread a week. Perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong places?


> So you are able to *KNOW* how a conversation will turn simply because past conversations had done so a few times in the past?



Intuition, experience, and wisdom are wonderful tools, especially in tandem.


> And there is one small thing that I'd like to add.  Eric, your Avatar IS a picture of a guy with a cocky smirk on his face, after all.  It tends to lend your writing on the boards a bit of a "high and mighty" attitude that really puts people off.



Are we reading the same boards? Of all the people I read here, Eric is the least cocky of them all, it seems to me. 

I've been visiting here since the beginning, and not only has Eric always been fair and open in his running of the site, but has earned my respect and trust. Even if he were to go "cocky" on us, I would be willing to give him some leeway. Until we drive up to Madison and slap the happy coat on him.


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## jgbrowning

Angcuru said:
			
		

> *But is Eric dishing out this cash?  Cause if he isn't I see no reason to put up with someone whom I view to be obnoxious and drunk with the illusion of power, considering your statement.
> 
> BTW - No intent of insult or mockery, this is simple the way I view EricNoah. *




*triple twitch*

joe b.


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## Angcuru

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> **triple twitch**



*

STOP THAT!*


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## Psionicist

First of all, I have no idea if you will understand my ramblings, they are mostly psuedo-sentences from a tired Swede who's spend the night learning OCaml. You can try at least... 

Okay, here goes. I am currently an active member of well over a dozen forums ranging from computer forums to forums dedicated to headphones, private forums and forums dedicated only to video game music, I even moderate one of these forums and does freelance administration jobs for three of them.

I have learned one thing from reading all these message boards, it's a simple truth, you can accept it if you wish, if you don't - then don't...

The golden rule of an internet message board is, that the harder you moderate, the closer the original theme of the webpage/forum (say role-playing games) you are going to get, the more mature these discussions will be. 

Rule number two is, that the definition of moderating hard increases as more people sign up on the forums, which conclude that the category of valid OT posts decreases per member joined. You can still post OT threads, but the closer these threads are to a forbidden subject (say politics), the higher the population of the forum is, the higher probability the thread will be closed. 

This is very simple, actually. In a forum with ten members, everyone will sooner or later know each other. There isn’t need for many rules at all. In a forum with thousands of members, where some might even have joined not to talk about the particular subject (say dungeons and dragons) but to "chat" because of the huge amount of nice people around (known as the Off Topic-forum problem), there are doomed to arise more problems, which leads to a more strict way of moderating things.

That's why there isn’t such thing as an Off-Topic area here. That's why the moderators close a thread they don't think is appropriate, that is a thread they believe will cause trouble in the near future. That's what moderation is all about, to keep things on a certain level.

And because of the strict moderation here, THAT'S why things are still very mature here. I promise you, that things would not be this nice if every single OT post was allowed.

So, to conclude: The larger the forum is, the worse impact OT threads will be/have, or more precisely - the larger the forum is, the better it is NOT to create an OT forum or allow lots of OT threads.

Anyhow, I hope you get the point. If you don't, I hope someone will quote this post and develop my thoughts even further.


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## jgbrowning

I have to ask you Angcuru, what exactly are you hoping to accomplish with a post such as this?:



> But is Eric dishing out this cash? Cause if he isn't I see no reason to put up with someone whom I view to be obnoxious and drunk with the illusion of power, considering your statement.
> 
> BTW - No intent of insult or mockery, this is simple the way I view EricNoah.




honestly, your BTW is total BS, we all know that. When you say a moderator is obnoxious and drunk with the illusion of power you *do* mean to insult.

What is your point? What do you hope to accomplish?  And more importantly, why do you think that post will help what you want to happen happen?

You also have to know that , many points aside, you're even factually wrong about him having no power. He does have power, remember?  That's what you were upset about.

Personally, I'd think about an apology.

joe b.


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## jdavis

Well I for one think it's great that Eric Noah watches the threads as good as he does and I really think that saying he is drunk with power because he can lock a thread on the board he started in the first place is the goofiest statement I have ever read on this site. I'm going to bail on this conversation for fear that all the twitching may be catching.


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## Psionicist

Okay, take 2 I guess.

The simple unwritten rule about moderation is, that if you don't like something a moderator has done - EMAIL HIM - don't complain on the forum! This discussion shouldn't be "public domain".


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## Skarp Hedin

I've read the thread in question, and I agree with Eric's decision to close it.

It's got nothing to do with roleplaying, borders on politics, and the initial post is somewhat insulting to boot.

Additionally, good lord! Calling a moderator who's been here as long as has Eric "obnoxious and drunk with the illusion of power" is .. well, it's weird.  

Firstly, he does not have the illusion of power, he has power.  The power to close threads, for example.  Secondly, I don't think he's obnoxious, though you're entitled to your opinion.  I can't figure out how you can say "No offense, but you're obnoxious" and expect there to be no offense, either.

Maybe Eric doesn't pay for the server anymore (or maybe he does pay some, I've no idea, nor do I think that it matters) but Morrus does pay for the server.  As the owner of the site, Morrus can appoint whomever he would wish to be his moderators and administrators, and you have few choices but to "put up with" it.  Therefore, if you've no reason to put up with Eric, you have but two options: Convince Morrus to fire him (which I think doomed to failure) or else leave the boards.  

N.B.: I am not asking you to leave the boards, you guys have started some interesting threads and made posts worth reading on many an occasion.  However, it's the equivalent of hanging out in someone else's house.  If the owner of the house tells you you've got to stop doing something, then stop you must, lest he have you removed.

Also, Angcuru, really -- you know by now that there's a rule here against personal attacks.  Why do you keep making them?


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## Henry

I would also recommend the FAQ as well, although Eric's Announcement post covers the most important portions. Everyone's opinion is valued, but it doesn't mean it is given any more or less consideration over all others.

I've been through every incarnation of Eric's Forums, and also Morrus' Forums; Eric's style of moderation and quality of judgement are what keep me coming back here day after day.

And this part might scare you:

All of the other Moderators use Eric's style as a yardstick and a guideline to good moderation of the boards. We were just discussing this about a week ago in the moderator forums.


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## Piratecat

Good lord. I really can't believe what I'm reading in this thread.

Blackshirt, Angcuru, you guys amaze me. Henry is absolutely correct; Eric is (and always has been) my role model when it comes to moderation. Heck, I'm faster to close threads than he is. I'm not sure where you're getting this "drunk with power" nonsense, but to be frank it's just silly. 

Just so everyone's clear: this isn't a democracy, and we will never have "moderation by committee," and we will never vote on whether a thread is to be closed. That's not going to happen. Ever since this site first opened, moderators have exercised their judgment as to when to close a thread, and what they decide goes. Don't care for their decision? Then you email them privately, but you _don't_ call them out.

Moderators here are picked for good judgment, a slowness to anger, and an instinct for being diplomatic. That latter quality has come through fairly clearly in Eric's responses to your accusations.


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## Piratecat

Angcuru said:
			
		

> *I see no reason to put up with someone whom I view to be obnoxious and drunk with the illusion of power.
> *




Enjoy.


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## kreynolds

Henry said:
			
		

> *All of the other Moderators use Eric's style as a yardstick and a guideline to good moderation of the boards. *




In all fairness, that simply is _not_ the case. Everyone has a personality of their own, and while yourself and the rest of the mods do indeed tend to follow a general guideline, you're not all the same. On occassion, not even remotely. Some mods are far more aggressive than others, even to the point where they make a judgement call poor enough that they apologize through email and backtrack to the thread, deleting their own comments to "be fair", but in all actually, its about covering the tracks of a bad decision or poorly handled situation. I've seen it first hand on multiple occassions and it ain't pretty. There's nothing worse than a guy that can be as bad as me with access to a lock, delete, or ban function. Nobody's perfect, not even moderators, and we all know that. That's pretty much the message I'm trying to convey here, that nobody's perfect, and that's no big deal. It's expected, but by the same token, I just can't support a statement like yours in its current form. For the most part, you mods set a great example here, and I can tell you with confidence that I certainly appreciate it.

With both good and bad said, however, understand that I think this is by far the best forum I have ever participated on. It's fun, it's informative, it's a great place for me to use my spiffy little signature images, and it easily sucks up about 50% of my time at the office.


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## Hypersmurf

> *It's his site, and we as mods and administrators do our best to enforce the letter (and more importantly) the spirit of the rules he has set up.*




"Spirit of the rules"?  

Oh dear.  I don't like the sound of that.

That's the first step on the road to telling people that the Bucket o' Snails doesn't work...



-Hyp.


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## kreynolds

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *That's the first step on the road to telling people that the Bucket o' Snails doesn't work... *




LOL Just tell me where to buy my tickets. I never miss one of those shows. But I want good seats!


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## Angcuru

> *I've been visiting here since the beginning, and not only has Eric always been fair and open in his running of the site, but has earned my respect and trust. Even if he were to go "cocky" on us, I would be willing to give him some leeway.*




Aaactually, I was referring to his avatar.  Just _look_ at that smirk.  Doesn't it strike you as even a _bit_ arrogant?



			
				jgbrowning said:
			
		

> *honestly, your BTW is total BS, we all know that. When you say a moderator is obnoxious and drunk with the illusion of power you do mean to insult.*




Do you, now? To me power is the ability to influence in a significant way how I go about my life.  If you are capable of say...reducing my paycheck, for example, you have power over me.  Controlling to an extent what is allowed to be discussed on EN world is not power, it's _prestige_ and/or _influence_.  This is not an insult, it's a statement of opinion.  If I'd wanted to insult him(which I didn't), I would have criticized him in a much more harsh, brutal, and generally _evil_ manner....which it didn't.  'Twas not a personal attack, 'twas criticism of his style, which irks me.

AS for an apology:  If I have offended, sorry.  But I mean what I say.

Well, PC and Henry, this is what separates the simple members from the Mods:  perception.  We'll view topics such as thread-locking differently due to our positions.  Wouldn't you like a bit of a rational explanation as to why a thread you were frequenting was suddenly locked with no forewarning?

True, Mods are skilled diplomats with a great deal of patience, which is appreciated.


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## tburdett

I keep visualizing my 10 year old daughter whining, "That's not fair!" when I read some of these messages.  I am sorry, but that is the image that springs to mind.


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## kreynolds

tburdett said:
			
		

> *I keep visualizing my 10 year old daughter whining, "That's not fair!" when I read some of these messages. *




T, don't feed the fire. That was just _way_ too much like how I used to post.


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## Tiefling

*Re: *Dons Eyeglasses**



			
				Angcuru said:
			
		

> *Clarity is relative to the perciever.  And while you make SOME of the calls, you do not make them all, remember that.*




Wuh? Eric is one of a half-dozen primary mods and admins. We all know that. So what?



> *The thread was nowhere near political, from my viewpoint, and I should know, I spend a great deal of my time discussing politics.*




It's generally safe to assume that none of the mods/admins knows your viewpoint on what is and is not political. It's also generally safe to assume that, seeing as this is not a democracy, they probably wouldn't take it into consideration even if they did.



> *So you admit that you were just guessing, otherwise you would not have mentioned this tendency of yours.  So you are able to *KNOW* how a conversation will turn simply because past conversations had done so a few times in the past?*




"A few" is an understatement. The idea is that Eric has been doing this for three years, and in that time he has developed a reasonable sense of what the community will and will not inflame. Obviously he won't always be right, but the moderators shouldn't have to constantly monitor every questionable thread to make sure it stays healthy. It's a volunteer job, not a paid one.



> *A hunch is not a good enough reason to close a thread:  factual evidence such as text authored by a participant in the conversation for this particular debate showing that the speaker is actively seeking to create trouble or turn the converstaion towards OBVIOUS politics; is.*




No offense, but what authority do you have to declare what is and is not sufficient justification for a thread closure?

With all due respect, Angcuru, your grasp of the rules of this community, written or otherwise, is less than impressive. I doubt that the mods have forgotten the way you talked back to Dinkeldog when he told you not to denigrate other peoples' belief systems on this message board.


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## Piratecat

We generally give an explanation for a closed thread, except when it's obvious. Most OT or political threads are.  You keep referring to an off-topic thread that I would have closed myself, except Eric got to it ten minutes before I could.

It's important to realize that there is a qualitative difference between OT threads that are funny or enlightening, and OT threads that have nowhere to go but downhill. RakeRon's thread was one of the latter. Sometimes we judge that there is nowhere a thread can go except into religion or politics, and we gladly close those preemptively. 

Extensive moderation gives you a good instinct for which threads will cause problems if you leave them. Eric's instincts are generally impeccable. I'm sorry if you don't agree with his judgment, but I'm afraid that this is how moderation is handled here.

(As for criticizing Eric's avatar, you may want to stop while you're ahead; I don't think you're helping your case any.)


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## Hypersmurf

*Re: Re: *Dons Eyeglasses**



> *I doubt that the mods have forgotten the way you talked back to Dinkeldog when he told you not to denigrate other peoples' belief systems on this message board. *




... or if they had, they remember it _now_... 

-Hyp.


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## RakeRon

Okay, somehow I think this is gonna come down on me as my fault in someway. I told blackshirt & ancuru what happened to my thread and how I couldn't post a reply of apology to certain members as well as set things straight. I had no idea it would go this far. Those two have their own distinct opinions about Eric. Personally I haven't been on ENWorld long enough to know about all the mods and such. I posted that out of frustration & lack of public boards that i could post on. I admit after going over it that it is borderlining politics. I guess those two think that even though the site is no longer under Eric's complete control they believe he acts like he still does. At least blackshirt was being somewhat civil about it. Ancuru tends to be strongly opionated on the net and excorsizes freedom of speech to the full extent getting him in trouble really easilly.


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## Angcuru

*Re: Re: *Dons Eyeglasses**



			
				Tiefling said:
			
		

> *No offense, but what authority do you have to declare what is and is not sufficient justification for a thread closure?
> 
> With all due respect, Angcuru, your grasp of the rules of this community, written or otherwise, is less than impressive. I doubt that the mods have forgotten the way you talked back to Dinkeldog when he told you not to denigrate other peoples' belief systems on this message board. *




I have the authority to voice my opinion, not that anyone is inclined to listen.

I admit to my constant forgetfulness that off-topic polls are a no-no.  Aah, yes, that little fiasco.  I still hold that I was not so much denigrating the belief systems of others as much as upholding my own, however.  But let's not open up old wounds, eh?  
OOOH my.  I just noticed that it's 1 AM, and I have my road test for my driver's license tomorrow.    G'nite!


----------



## Hypersmurf

> *(As for criticizing Eric's avatar, you may want to stop while you're ahead; I don't think you're helping your case any.) *




After all... how many Avatars have their own Fan Club?

(Although on the topic of hypnotic avatars, I find Piratecat's little twinkles somehow draw me in every time... "_A pattern of shifting colors weaves through the air, fascinating creatures within it. Affected creatures gaze at the lights, heedless of all else..._")

-Hyp.


----------



## Piratecat

RakeRon said:
			
		

> *I guess those two think that even though the site is no longer under Eric's complete control they believe he acts like he still does.*




Heh - because it is, as it is for any of the moderators and administrators. Even then, excepting the boss (Morrus) Eric is a first among equals, and I dare say that we gladly defer to his judgment. He's better at this than most of us.

RakeRon, thanks for the apology.


----------



## Angcuru

*Re: Re: Re: *Dons Eyeglasses**



			
				RakeRon said:
			
		

> *AnGcuru tends to be strongly opionated on the net and excorsizes freedom of speech to the full extent getting him in trouble really easilly. *




You know, you're right about that one.  I'm actually quite silent on most matters in general conversation but once I get started, I keep going.  One of my more significant faults.


----------



## EricNoah

I'm just gonna ... pretend that whole "drunk with power" thing never happened.  

RakeRon -- Thanks for taking the time to weigh in, it's very helpful to hear your side of the story.  In the future, if I do something that just doesn't make sense to you, you can always feel free to drop me an e-mail and I'll explain in more detail.  

Angcuru -- good luck on the driver's test, watch out for the parallel parking!  

Everyone else -- thanks for the kind words of support.


----------



## RakeRon

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Heh - because it is, as it is for any of the moderators and administrators. Even then, excepting the boss (Morrus) Eric is a first among equals, and I dare say that we gladly defer to his judgment. He's better at this than most of us.
> 
> RakeRon, thanks for the apology. *




Thats the thing though, Eric let Morrus have control over the site. To them this means Morrus has more authority than Eric and it no longer belongs to him. To those two he's nothing more than one of the other mods. I dunno, I can't explain why but they show more respect to you and Morrus than any other of the mods. BTW: you're welcome.


----------



## EricNoah

RakeRon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Thats the thing though, Eric let Morrus have control over the site. To them this means Morrus has more authority than Eric and it no longer belongs to him. To those two he's nothing more than one of the other mods. I dunno, I can't explain why but they show more respect to you and Morrus than any other of the mods. *




I guess on looking at it from the point of view of someone who hasn't been around from the beginning (and I guess that's a lot of folks), it is a little weird.  You'll have to take it on faith that while it's not a traditional power structure or chain of command, it does seem to work for the most part.  So, for example, when I go and post a big "let's review the rules" type thing, it's not simply because I'm running past Russ's authority; it's more like I'm anticipating a need, or responding to a general sense of what's been going on in the mod's forum ("do you think we need to remind people of what the rules are?") or on the boards at large.  

The best part of the arrangement is that Russ can go away for several days if necessary (as he did this weekend, I believe) and yet his "way of doing things" continues fairly seamlessly -- because the mods all have the same basic philosophy and goals in mind.  It really is like several guys sharing one brain, in a way.


----------



## Hypersmurf

> *It really is like several guys sharing one brain, in a way. *




But how many souls do you have between you?

It's important to know if one of you casts Magic Jar.

(And don't pretend you can't - I've seen Editorial comments in other people's messages from you guys.  How else do they get there, unless you're temporarily forcing their souls into a little gem and possessing their bodies, hmm?)

-Hyp.


----------



## RakeRon

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> It really is like several guys sharing one brain, in a way. *




OMG! THE MODS ARE BORG SLIVERS!


----------



## EricNoah

RakeRon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> OMG! THE MODS ARE BORG SLIVERS! *




Oops, did we not mention that?  We are THE MODS.  Resistance is Futile!


----------



## kreynolds

RakeRon said:
			
		

> *OMG! THE MODS ARE BORG SLIVERS! *




Well, that's certainly better than a dozen people in one room, each with their own brains. You know what they say about collective IQ.


----------



## EricNoah

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, that's certainly better than a dozen people in one room, each with their own brains. You know what they say about collective IQ.  *




No, what DO they say about collective IQ?  (I don't think I've heard this one...)


----------



## kreynolds

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *We are THE MODS.  Resistance is Futile! *




Just give this concept fives minutes of air time on Voyager and it'll be ruined.


----------



## EricNoah

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Just give this concept fives minutes of air time on Voyager and it'll be ruined.  *




Now, now, don't speak ill of the dead!


----------



## kreynolds

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *No, what DO they say about collective IQ?  (I don't think I've heard this one...) *




Crap. I was hoping everyone had heard it. I don't remember exactly how the phrase goes, so just know that I'm going to ruin it, so there won't be anything funny about it at all. Basically, the sum total IQ of a group of individuals is roughly equal to the lowest IQ of the bunch. Essentially, the larger the group, the lower the IQ.

Take NASA, for example. Thousands of extraodinarily intelligent and brilliant people, all working towards the same goal for decades, still rocketing people into the sky while sitting on thousands of pounds of highly volatile jet fuel. But, I always have hope. Actually, I can't wait to see their new designs for the next line of shuttles. Should be pretty cool.


----------



## kreynolds

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *Now, now, don't speak ill of the dead! *




LOL  In all honesty, I _really_ miss Janeway. I don't care what anybody says. She was pretty cool. Not cool in the same way that Picard used to be, but awesome in her own right.


----------



## kreynolds

By the way, I'm not sure if this happened to anyone else, but when I first read the title of this thread, I most certainly did not register "lock-happy". Heck, I do a double-take almost every time I see it!


----------



## EricNoah

Watch it, buddy, or you're going to get this thread closed!


----------



## kreynolds

Heh. Fair enough.


----------



## Olive

*Re: Re: Re: *Dons Eyeglasses**



			
				Angcuru said:
			
		

> *I have the authority to voice my opinion, not that anyone is inclined to listen.*




except of course when it breaks the rules of the boards. of course.

As far as its important, i think Eric is one of the best mods here, never used locking the thread to get a last word, and generally locks threads that deserve locking. thanks for all your hard work.


----------



## Olive

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *In all fairness, that simply is _not_ the case. Everyone has a personality of their own, and while yourself and the rest of the mods do indeed tend to follow a general guideline, you're not all the same. *




of course that's not what henry said. henry said that they try to use Eric as a guideline and a yardstick. Not that they always do, or that this means they all moderate the same.


----------



## haiiro

If the EN World boards weren't closely moderated, they would almost certainly stink. I don't want that, and I appreciate the time and work involved in moderating a board this large and prestigious. To EricNoah and all of the mods: nice work, keep it up.


----------



## Eosin the Red

I wanted to add a **twitch** or two back on page one.


----------



## Morrus

Goodness!  I go away for a few days and miss all the fun!

Anyway, to clarify a few things...

While it's true that I own the site, I readily accept that Eric's (and PCs, and, if I'm honest, the rest of the mods'!) skills in that particular area are greater than mine.  That's the main reason why I ask them to do what they do.  As PC said, when it comes to moderating, much of the time I look back and try to work out how Eric used to do it (and how he still does).  I, myself, will often defer to the judgement of those who kindly agree to help me, because I recognise their experience and skills in the matter.  I mean, PC has a Charisma score of 18, for goodness sake!  

Having delegated that authority, these people are my representatives.  When you ask what authority any of them have to close a thread, you're asking what authority *I* have to close a thread.  And given that I'm the one forking out the cash, I reserve the right to close any thread I want to for any reason I choose.  As it happens, I choose to adopt a general system of guidelines first introduced by Eric 3 years ago because I believe that they are both effective and fair.

Now, moderators *do* sometimes make mistakes.  As does everybody else here on these boards.  I don't think that that's a big deal, though.  On balance, they are more than outweighed by the good decisions that they make, and the general effect is that 99% of the time everybody is happy.  I don't think we'd ever be able to come up with a system which improves on that.

For the record, I do not think that Eric made a mistake in this case - I agree with the closure.  Even if RR had not intended it to go political (and none of us would presume to know his mind), we are keenly aware of the general trends of this community and are usually able to spot a topic that will turn political.  That doesn't mean that that was the fault or the intention of the thread starter.

Anyway.  I hope that clears a few things up!


----------



## kreynolds

Olive said:
			
		

> *of course that's not what henry said.  *




I didn't say he did. When you take a post completely out of context like that, of course it doesn't look right.


----------



## blackshirt5

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Good lord. I really can't believe what I'm reading in this thread.
> 
> Blackshirt, Angcuru, you guys amaze me. Henry is absolutely correct; Eric is (and always has been) my role model when it comes to moderation. Heck, I'm faster to close threads than he is. I'm not sure where you're getting this "drunk with power" nonsense, but to be frank it's just silly.
> *




I don't particularly see that in you though P-kitty.  You seem a lot more level-headed and reasonable than Eric Noah most days, although maybe that's just my perception of it.  As Angcuru said earlier in the thread, maybe it's just the smiling kitty avatar that softens the blow, as opposed to the smirk on Noah's face(no offense, it does look like you're smirking.  Maybe it's just reminiscent of high school to me, but you look like a guy I knew who always smirked like that).

Although I will agree and say that these are my favorite forums on the net, much better than the brawl-for-all that is RPG.net(dear god, just the privilege of not having to deal with GMS is enough to make me worship at the foot of the ENWorld statues!).


----------



## blackshirt5

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *By the way, I'm not sure if this happened to anyone else, but when I first read the title of this thread, I most certainly did not register "lock-happy". Heck, I do a double-take almost every time I see it!  *




Yeah, I edited the title, the original title was "out of control" instead of "lock-happy", and I changed it because I realized that it sounded more than a little bit jerkish, and I tried hard to keep this from becoming a personal attack.

Then, of course, Angcuru logged on.  And thus was Hell created on Earth.


----------



## cardinal sinister

Now I remember why I don't post here very often...Eric, PCat, Morrus have done an OUTSTANDING job of running this site, moderating the forums, and keeping the news going.

The rules are clear...have been since this WAS Eric's site...if you don't like it then follow PCats link and post elsewhere...


----------



## Squirrel Nutkin

Eric Noah has been a role model to me in more ways than I can count, and there isn't a single day where I don't sit down at the PC and thank him for making so many things possible for me. I don't have many heroes in real life, but he's one of 'em, and the very few times he has given me advice regarding Nutkinland, I've taken it. 

In fact, I try to run Nutkinland with the same mix of humor, wisdom, and maturity that Eric would have if he loosened up a little and got blind stinking drunk. We're not a gaming board and we don't worry about being kid-friendly, so we have a lot of freedom that ENWorld can't afford. But when it comes to being a fair, impartial, and generally good-natured admin, I can't think of a better example to look to than Eric.


----------



## blackshirt5

cardinal sinister said:
			
		

> *Now I remember why I don't post here very often...Eric, PCat, Morrus have done an OUTSTANDING job of running this site, moderating the forums, and keeping the news going.
> 
> The rules are clear...have been since this WAS Eric's site...if you don't like it then follow PCats link and post elsewhere... *




Y'know, maybe if you'd have bothered to read the entire thread, you'd see that both myself and Angcuru admitted to having been a bit hasty in our words.  Cut the melodramatic crap out of your diet, it'll leave a much better taste in your mouth, trust me.

And on the point of you saying "ever since it WAS Eric's site" keep in mind that word "was."  Just because it used to be his doesn't mean it has to be moderated according to his way of thinking, just because.(note: Not an attack on your moderating style Eric, or anyone else's, just dealing with this post.).

You don't like what I write?  Too damn bad.  Don't read my posts then.  As for me?  I like it right where I'm at, so personally I'm not going anywhere.


----------



## Piratecat

Okay, quick quiz, Blackshirt:  what's the rule about insulting other members? (ie "cut the melodramatic crap out of your diet")

Hint: you can find it in the announcement at the top of every forum.

Let's open it up to the class.  Anyone?  Anyone?  Buhler?


----------



## Closed Threads

I'm tempted.  Really, very tempted.


----------



## cardinal sinister

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Y'know, maybe if you'd have bothered to read the entire thread, you'd see that both myself and Angcuru admitted to having been a bit hasty in our words.  Cut the melodramatic crap out of your diet, it'll leave a much better taste in your mouth, trust me.
> 
> And on the point of you saying "ever since it WAS Eric's site" keep in mind that word "was."  Just because it used to be his doesn't mean it has to be moderated according to his way of thinking, just because.(note: Not an attack on your moderating style Eric, or anyone else's, just dealing with this post.).
> 
> You don't like what I write?  Too damn bad.  Don't read my posts then.  As for me?  I like it right where I'm at, so personally I'm not going anywhere. *




You're assuming somehow that this board is a democracy where your vote counts...it doesn't...get over it.  Eric turned over his site to Morrus because they saw eye to eye on how it should be run...thus...it stands to reason that Eric has the backing of the guy who pays the bills.  

Reality check...his is the only opinion that matters.


----------



## Hand of Evil

I have found this thread very very interesting.


----------



## Darkness

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *I don't particularly see that in you though P-kitty.  You seem a lot more level-headed and reasonable ...*



Dude! He has an 18 Charisma.


----------



## Darkness

cardinal sinister said:
			
		

> *You want to take a personal run at me, we can do it on another board...*



Such as...

Would probably be the best for everyone concerned...


----------



## EricNoah

Ok, Cardinal, that's enough.  Just leave it alone.


----------



## cardinal sinister

Already done EN...


----------



## blackshirt5

Darkness said:
			
		

> *Such as...
> 
> Would probably be the best for everyone concerned... *




*CS edited his post.  I'm editing this.  - Piratecat*


And P-kitty, sorry about the personal attack.  Got a little bit out of hand.

Bueller.....Bueller.....Bueller.....Bueller.....


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Alright, let's put it like this: Morrus is the guy who runs this place. He shells out the money for it. His word goes. He has given Eric the authority he has to act unilaterally on these boards (as he has the other mods), and with extremely good reason. We've seen the cries for committee voting on what is or isn't appropriate for the boards since Eric ran this site, and the rules have remained the same - it will never happen. These boards exist as they do exactly _because_ a committee doesn't vote on how to run them. We see all kinds of places on the internet where the boards are run, in effect, by committee, and those places are the ones that give the internet a bad name when it comes to message boards.

EDIT: Where the heck did that second page come from?  Guess I was a day late and a dollar short. Anyway, what I posted isn't all that incendiary...


----------



## Piratecat

Blackshirt5, thanks for apologizing.  

Cardinal Sinister edited his post. We don't need macho posturing, threats (from anyone), or personal attacks on these boartds. As a result, I edited two paragraphs out of your last post.

Seriously, folks, stand back and take a deep breath before posting. It helps.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No, what DO they say about collective IQ?  (I don't think I've heard this one...) *




There's a comedian who says something like: "_a_ person is smart; _people_ are stupid..."


----------



## EricNoah

And to be fair, it wouldn't hurt if latecomers to the thread would read the whole thing.  The parties involved have essentially dealt with the issue at hand and it's been resolved, so there's no need for folks to go 'round beating on anyone for things said early in the thread. 

See, now, this is where closing a thread that has run its course could come in handy.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *And to be fair, it wouldn't hurt if latecomers to the thread would read the whole thing.  The parties involved have essentially dealt with the issue at hand and it's been resolved, so there's no need for folks to go 'round beating on anyone for things said early in the thread.
> 
> See, now, this is where closing a thread that has run its course could come in handy.  *




Aw, c'mon, you can use my name!  Hey, I didn't say anything all that bad; I was being nice!


----------



## ColonelHardisson

By the way, I did try to read the whole thread; I just overlooked that there was a second page. My response was even more nice, relatively speaking, when taken in that context.

Heh.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

So...did anything start on Nutkinland over this? 

Oh, and a few more *twitches* on the front page. Glad to see it all got sorted out, though.


----------



## blackshirt5

OK, P-kitty, I'll try.

*Takes a deep breath*

Bueller.....Bueller.....Bueller.....Bueller.....Bueller.....Bueller.....

And I don't think anything started over at Nutkinland about this.

Colonel, I was as surprised as you were to see that this made it to a second page.  Go to sleep for a few hours and everybody jumps into the pool!


----------



## EricNoah

Tallarn said:
			
		

> *So...did anything start on Nutkinland over this?
> *




Not to my knowledge, though I don't ever visit the Angry Chair....


----------



## cardinal sinister

The answer is yes...


----------



## blackshirt5

I'm reading it and laughing.


----------



## EricNoah

blackshirt (and everyone):  comments about threads going on outside of EN World should go there, not here.  

Colonel H:  My comment about reading threads wasn't directed at you.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *blackshirt (and everyone):  comments about threads going on outside of EN World should go there, not here.
> 
> Colonel H:  My comment about reading threads wasn't directed at you. *




Well, really, it should've been. I was stupid not to notice that second page!


----------



## blackshirt5

Duly noted EN.

The good of Eric Noah's Avatar: We now know what Eddie Gutnick is gonna look like in 9 years(I'm hoping at least Angcuru remembers who Gutnick is, otherwise I'll feel like an arse).


----------



## BOZ

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> *Publicly "calling-out" a moderator is always a bad idea. That's why there's private messages or e-mail.*



*

yeah, that's why DDK came to infest nutkinland.  *


----------



## BOZ

Tallarn said:
			
		

> *So...did anything start on Nutkinland over this? *




i've only seen this so far:  blackshirt and angcuru vs Eric Noah


----------



## SpikeyFreak

WEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

P-kitty and Eric, you never cease to amaze me with your level-headedness.

Jolly good show fellows.

And I would like to add that it takes a big man to apologize in a place like this.

Carry-on now!

--Little Man Spikey


----------



## The Sigil

*I am reminded...*

http://www.cerias.purdue.edu/homes/spaf/farewell

It may have been about USENET, but reading it, I am reminded of why I love ENWorld.



> Axiom #2: "Ability to type on a computer terminal is no guarantee of sanity, intelligence, or common sense."
> 
> Corollary #3:  "An infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of keyboards could produce something like (ENWorld)."
> 
> Corollary #4: "They could do a better job of it."
> 
> Axiom #3: "Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap) applies to (ENWorld)."
> 
> Corollary #5: "In an unmoderated newsgroup, no one can agree on what constitutes the 10%."
> 
> Corollary #6: "Nothing guarantees that the 10% isn't crap, too."



I thank the moderators for helping us find the 10% (corollary #5). 

--The Sigil


----------



## Olive

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *I didn't say he did. When you take a post completely out of context like that, of course it doesn't look right. *




I can't resist.

You quoted henry as saying this:



			
				Henry[/i][b]All of the other Moderators use Eric's style as a yardstick and a guideline to good moderation of the boards. [/B][/QUOTE]

to which you said this:
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kreynolds said:
			
		

> *In all fairness, that simply is _not_ the case. Everyone has a personality of their own, and while yourself and the rest of the mods do indeed tend to follow a general guideline, you're not all the same. On occassion, not even remotely. Some mods are far more aggressive than others, even to the point where they make a judgement call poor enough that they apologize through email and backtrack to the thread, deleting their own comments to "be fair", but in all actually, its about covering the tracks of a bad decision or poorly handled situation. I've seen it first hand on multiple occassions and it ain't pretty. There's nothing worse than a guy that can be as bad as me with access to a lock, delete, or ban function. Nobody's perfect, not even moderators, and we all know that. That's pretty much the message I'm trying to convey here, that nobody's perfect, and that's no big deal. It's expected, but by the same token, I just can't support a statement like yours in its current form. For the most part, you mods set a great example here, and I can tell you with confidence that I certainly appreciate it.*




So I took the opening sentence of your argument, where you said :this is not the case", and said that Henry never said what you said he was saying. In other words, he never said that they act like EN, he said that they try to act like EN.

You said that:



> *...you're not all the same. On occassion, not even remotely. Some mods are far more aggressive than others...*/quote]
> 
> And I'm saying Henry never said they were all the same.
> 
> So what's the beef?


----------



## Tiefling

*Re: Re: Re: *Dons Eyeglasses**



			
				Angcuru said:
			
		

> *I have the authority to voice my opinion, not that anyone is inclined to listen.*




Just try not to use such a definitive and authoritative tone.

I will consent to discuss pass transgressions no further, but don't take my silence as agreement with your assessment.


----------



## alsih2o

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50049


----------



## kreynolds

Olive said:
			
		

> *I can't resist. *




Please try. You are merely taking my post out of context. Nothing more.



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> *So I took the opening sentence of your argument... *




And chopped it off from the rest of the post, much like I'm doing right now.



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> *In other words, he never said that they act like EN... *




Again, I never said he did.



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> *...he said that they try to act like EN. *




I dare you to find that. 



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> *And I'm saying Henry never said they were all the same. *




Last time (hopefully), I never said he did. He said "All of the other Moderators use Eric's style as a yardstick and a guideline to good moderation of the boards." *(Note that "try" is not in there)* It was a general statement, and I was pointing out that I couldn't agree with it in its current incarnation.

Please, give me the courtesy and don't make assumptions when you read my posts. If you're curious about something or confused about something I post, ask me. I'll be more than happy to try and make myself more clear.


----------



## Silver Moon

I just read through this thread, and it is very surreal.    Most of the thoughts I've had along the way have already been stated, so I won't repeat them (with the exception of agreeing with Piratecat having an 18 Charisma).     

I guess I just want to express how much I enjoy this messageboard and forum.   This is a great place for people to discuss Role Playing Games and related topics.  I like the civil and orderly tone of this board.   Last fall Piratecat had invited me to check out this and one other board, and I was hesitant due to prior very bad experiences on two other boards.  I have been extremely happy with what I found.   

One final point.  Unless I am mistaken, all of the moderators are *volunteers*!   They devote a signifant amount of their time doing what appears to often be a thankless job.   So to all the Mod's, a very big THANK YOU from me.


----------



## EricNoah

You know, this has been such great fun, but I think this thread is all tuckered out and maybe getting a little bit cranky.  So I'm putting this little tyke to bed.

Shhhh .... go to sleep little thread, and dream your dreamy dreams.


----------



## Hypersmurf

He did it _again_!!

-Hyp.


----------

