# Converting Epic Level Creatures



## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Part Two. 

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

*Siragle*
Climate/Terrain: Abyss
Freq: Unique (very rare)
Org: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Carnivore
Int: Genius
Treasure: S, U, Y
# App: 1
AC: -3
Movement: 12
HD: 85 hp (18 HD)
THAC0: 5
# Att: 4
Dmg/Att:  2d4+7/2d4+7/2d2/3 (see below)
SA: Magic use, stinger (See below)
SD: +2 or better weapon to hit; half damage from cold, electricity, fire, and gas
MR: 50%
Size: L (8-1/2 feet tall)
Morale: 19
XP Value: 21,000

Siragle is a major Abyssal fiend whose form is an unsettling humanoid/reptile blend. He stands 8-1/2' tall and has the head of a crocodile crowned with sharp black antlers.  His body is that of a huge, muscular human, a full 3' wide.  His eyes are a solid blood-red, his numerous teeth are black as soot, and his 5'-long tail trails behind him, ending in a daggerlike yellowed ivory stinger.  His feet and hands sport vicious claws, and his leathery, muscled body is a blackish-green.

Skilled at magic, Siragle can perform the following spell-like abilities as a 20th-level caster.  At will:  detect magic, detect invisible, darkness 10' radius, infravision, know alignment, fly, dispel magic; three times/day: invisibility, polymorph self, shout, suggestion, plane shift, teleport; once/day: chaos, gate 2-4 chasmes (45% chance); once/week: mass charm, forcecage.  He is also able to utilize wizard scrolls and frequently has some in his possession, but not at this time.

Siragle has a strength of 19 (+3 to hit, +7 to damage).  If he hits with both claw attacks (2-8/2-8 hp damage plus Str bonus), his bite (2-12 hp damage) and tail stinger (3 hp damage) hit automatically.  Under such circumstances, the stinger has a 45% chance of draining 1 life level from the victim and transferring a corresponding number of hit points to Siragle (dice type determined by the victim's character class), though Siragle can never recieve more than his original number of hit points.  He is capable of wielding a weapon rather than using his claw attacks, but has not brought a weapon with him.

Siragle saves as a 16th-level fighter or wizard, whichever is better.  If a battle goes poorly for him and he is reduced to one-quarter his original hp, he will try to use his plane shift spell to escape or use whatever other means are available to get him to safety.  If Siragle is driven off by the adventureres, he will definitely hold a grudge.  If slain, he will re-form on his home plane in one year, whereupon he will do all he can to make life unpleasant for his slayers.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #28 (1991).


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2008)

And from Fiendish Codex I, we've got his layer and nickname:

493 - The Steeping Isle, realm of Siragle the Ineffable.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2008)

So how many HD does this translate to?  And target CR?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2008)

It actually translates to 18 HD, so I suppose he isn't truly epic.  Although he does have CL 20 for his SLAs.    

I guess he's more of a "unique fiend" like Kerzit than an actual demon lord.

Str 19 translates to 24 in 3e.

Genius intelligence equals 17-18.

Ability scores of other 18-HD demons:
Myrmyxicus: Str 33, Dex 15, Con 24, Int 22, Wis 24, Cha 21
Sorrowsworn: Str 29, Dex 17, Con 32, Int 20, Wis 22, Cha 21


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Well, we can pretend he's epic. 

Seems like he's going to be a bit less challenging than the myryxicus and sorrowsworn, at least judging by abilities (unless his SLAs make up for them).  He's smaller than a myrmyxicus, I think, so maybe go with a slightly higher Dex.  What do you think of Str 24, Dex 19, Con 24, Int 17, Wis 22, Cha 21?  Should we decrease the other stats also?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Let's increase Int to 18, and I'm fine with those other abilities.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

He should have 3 odd ability scores, so maybe Con 25?



> Siragle has a strength of 19 (+3 to hit, +7 to damage). If he hits with both claw attacks (2-8/2-8 hp damage plus Str bonus), his bite (2-12 hp damage) and tail stinger (3 hp damage) hit automatically. Under such circumstances, the stinger has a 45% chance of draining 1 life level from the victim and transferring a corresponding number of hit points to Siragle (dice type determined by the victim's character class), though Siragle can never recieve more than his original number of hit points. He is capable of wielding a weapon rather than using his claw attacks, but has not brought a weapon with him.




Based on this, he should get improved grab and energy drain.  Do you agree?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Hmmm, looking at the summon tanar'ri, I wonder if we forgot to say what Ilsidahur summons if you don't have FC1.  Maybe vrocks?  Not sure what Siragle should summon.


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hmmm, looking at the summon tanar'ri, I wonder if we forgot to say what Ilsidahur summons if you don't have FC1.  Maybe vrocks?  Not sure what Siragle should summon.




We used babaus in place of bar-lguras for Ilsidahur.  Since chasmes are CR 10, and vrocks are CR 9, we could probably use vrocks as the alternative for Siragle.


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2008)

Ahh, ok, you'd already changed some of that.  Yes, I think chasmes and vrocks will work pretty well.

What did you think about improved grab and energy drain?


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2008)

Updated to add both.

Spell-Like Abilities:  At will--deeper darkness, detect good, detect magic, dispel magic, fly, see invisibility; 3/day--greater teleport, invisibility, shout, suggestion, plane shift; 1/day--word of chaos; 1/week--forcecage, mass charm.   Caster level 20th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

I'd suggest we move the 1/week abilities to 1/day, as they aren't that powerful.

I'd also suggest adding some common demon SLAs, like unholy blight and unholy aura.

And I think dispel magic should be upgraded to greater.


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2008)

I'd agree with all of that.  Given this


> He is also able to utilize wizard scrolls and frequently has some in his possession, but not at this time.



should we add an ability that he can use arcane scrolls of any spell without a failure chance?


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> should we add an ability that he can use arcane scrolls of any spell without a failure chance?




Sure.  We can modify the item master ability:

Item Master (Ex): Demogorgon can use any magic item, even spell completion items such as wands or scrolls. He can also create any item or construct as though he had the necessary feats and prerequisite spells or other requirements.

How about...

Scroll Master (Ex): Siragle can use use or create any scroll as though he had the necessary feats and prerequisite spells or other requirements.


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2008)

Ok, are we down to skills & feats?  For skills, how about Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (the planes), Spellcraft, Intimidate, Concentration, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device, Spot, Listen, Search, Jump, and Swim?



> If slain, he will re-form on his home plane in one year, whereupon he will do all he can to make life unpleasant for his slayers.




We need some kind of rejuvenation ability, like the lie in state from Adimarchus, I think.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 26, 2008)

I agree with Freyar that a rejuvenation ability would be good. There should also be some way to prevent this from happening (slay him on his home plane? cast holy word and dispel evil on his corpse within 1d4 rounds?)

Feats-wise, Power Attack seems like a given for a bruiser like this. Cleave's nice, but not really required. Quicken Spell-like Ability could be good for either fly or suggestion. Improved Initiative, Multiattack are both solid. I'm tempted to give him Improved Bull's Rush + Awesome Blow + Combat Reflexes, so he can smack people who are in melee with him, then grab them with his tail when they try to close.

My vote for final feats? Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Imp. Bull's Rush, Imp. Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken SLA (either fly or suggestion).

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2008)

I like that feat selection.  I think I'd quicken fly, if we're going for a melee theme.  On the caster side (this guy is so versatile! ), I'd prefer suggestion, though.  Depends on the focus you want to have.

How about this for the rejuvenation?

Rejuvenation (Su): If Siragle dies, he reforms on the Steeping Isle, his home layer of the Abyss, in one year. Any equipment Siragle was wearing or carrying at the moment of his death, such as a weapon or scroll, however, is left behind.  If Siragle is slain on his home plane, he is dead forever.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey there, Demiurge! <waves>

The skill and feat selections look pretty good.  I mixed up some of the ranks to add Bluff and Sense Motive.  We'll need to bump his Str to 25 to meet the prereqs for Awesome Blow, but that's not a problem since he's already at 24.

Updated.


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2008)

Looking good.  For some Xs:

DR 15/cold iron & good ?
Telepathy 100 ft?  or drop it to 60 since he's not quite as epic?

His original natural attack damage is pretty low.  So how about 2d6 for claws, 1d8 for bite, and 1d6 for the stinger?  That's a little better than the original version.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

That sounds mostly good.  Let's go with at least the baseline Large damage for his attacks: 
1d6 (claw), 1d8 (bite), 1d8 (tail).

We could bump the claws to 1d8 as well.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2008)

Not a big deal, but I'd like to bump the claws due to the fact that they were the most damaging attacks originally.  But I don't want to burn a feat on Imp. Nat. Attack just to do it, unless we want to replace Imp. Init.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

2d6 is fine.  I just spot-checked some of the other high-end demons of his size, and they have varying damages.

AC 23 is going to be too low.  Looking at other high-end demons, it should probably be in the 30-35 range.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

Well, we can set the natural armor fairly high, since he's got "leathery" flesh.  Demonic leather is bound to be pretty tough.  Maybe +13-15? Deflection equal to Cha bonus nets us another +5 if we go that route.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2008)

Hey there, Shade! I've decided it's been too long since I've done much monster-craft, so I'm easing my way back in.

I say don't give him a deflection bonus to AC. Maybe a profane bonus. Maybe. But if we want to make him feel a little more "epic" (poor guy, right on the threshold), we could give him something like:

Profane Fury (Su): Once per day, Siragle may draw upon his connection with the Steeping Isle to shroud himself in abyssal energy as a swift action. When in a profane fury, Siragle gains the effect of an _unholy aura_ spell (Fortitude DC 24 negates the Strength damage) and damage reduction 5/epic for 8 rounds. When his profane fury expires, Siragle is fatigued for the rest of the encounter. The save DC is Charisma based.

Emphasizes his melee, gives him some (more) well-needed defenses, and ties him closer to his Abyssal layer.

What do you think, sirs?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

I like that.  Maybe a small profane bonus to AC (rather than deflection), depending on what Shade thinks about his baase AC.  CL 20th on the unholy aura?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I like that.  Maybe a small profane bonus to AC (rather than deflection), depending on what Shade thinks about his baase AC.  CL 20th on the unholy aura?



Indeed.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Hey there, Shade! I've decided it's been too long since I've done much monster-craft, so I'm easing my way back in.




We're glad to have you back!    

As for the other stuff, sounds good.  Since we already gave him unholy aura as a SLA, how about...

Profane Fury (Su): Once per day, Siragle may draw upon his connection with the Steeping Isle to shroud himself in abyssal energy as a swift action. When in a profane fury, Siragle gains a +5 profane bonus to AC, a +2 bonus to his spell resistance, and damage reduction 5/epic for 8 rounds. When his profane fury expires, Siragle is fatigued for the rest of the encounter. The save DC is Charisma based.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 29, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since we already gave him unholy aura as a SLA, how about...
> 
> Profane Fury (Su): Once per day, Siragle may draw upon his connection with the Steeping Isle to shroud himself in abyssal energy as a swift action. When in a profane fury, Siragle gains a +5 profane bonus to AC, a +2 bonus to his spell resistance, and damage reduction 5/epic for 8 rounds. When his profane fury expires, Siragle is fatigued for the rest of the encounter. The save DC is Charisma based.



D'oh! How did I miss the unholy aura? That version of profane fury works nicely, I think.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2008)

Treasure Type: S, U, Y



> He is also able to utilize wizard scrolls and frequently has some in his possession, but not at this time.




S: 
Maps or Magic Items: 2-8 potions: 40%

U:
10-80 gems: 90%
5-30 jewelry: 80%
Maps or Magic Items: 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%

Y:
2-12 1,000s of gold pieces: 70%

Standard coins, double goods (gems and jewelery), double items?



> He is capable of wielding a weapon rather than using his claw attacks, but has not brought a weapon with him.




Shall we give him a special weapon?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 29, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Standard coins, double goods (gems and jewelery), double items?



Sounds good to me.



> Shall we give him a special weapon?



Sure! _+3, unholy_? A two-handed weapon makes sense, to keep with the bruiser theme, but I think we should go with something a little cooler than just a greatsword. Halberd? Falchion?

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2008)

Falchions are woefully underused, so that gets my vote.

I'll look over the module again and make sure nothing within indicates any othe details.


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## freyar (Feb 29, 2008)

This all looks good. I had noticed the double unholy aura, but the effects were so nice....   But I like this profane fury, too.


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2008)

Not much else in the module pertaining to Siragle, other than the following:

"Perhaps in battle, Siragle attempts to grab a PC and plane shift home, forcing the other adventurers to undertake a rescue mission to the fiend's gruesome Abyssal realm."

"This dangerous Abyssal denizen has been growing in power and influence over the past few centuries.  He now holds sway over the 493rd layer of the Abyss, a small, loathsome place with few inhabitants or resources.  Thus, the contract he drew up with Draskilion is of considerable importance to him, and he has decided to deal with the matter personally."

"Siragle's agreement is for Draskilion's soul and services.  When he discovers that other beings have also been promised the wizard's soul, he will not be pleased.  However, as he has learned to be flexible, Siragle will be happy to claim the souls of two or three less-willing persons, "who should have kept their noses out of this business anyway."


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## freyar (Feb 29, 2008)

Not a whole lot mechanical there.  Unless you think the bit about plane shift warrants an abduct ability, like a bar-lgura.  (It's not necessary, though, since the demon's plane shift isn't normally limited to personal range.)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 29, 2008)

Wait, does Siragle have improved grab as we've got him so far? If not, I think he should get it. Having an abduction-type ability isn't necessary, as plane shift doesn't have the "self plus 50 pounds" limitation, and the spell allows for unwilling targets anyway.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

Yep, he's got it.

Here's the latest update.

CR 18?

Weight?


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## freyar (Mar 3, 2008)

Hard for me to guess a CR, but 18 is probably reasonable.  Maybe a bump if he has a lot of scrolls with him.  Also, we should add "with no chance of failure" to the scroll mastery bit.  I guess that sets the natural armor, as well?

Maybe 1000 lb?  That's on the heavy end (compared to say an ogre, greater barghest, etc), but strangely low compared to a balor.  Why are balors so heavy, just 'cause they're so much stronger?


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

Dunno.  It must be supernatural.    

How about +17 natural armor, yielding a total AC of 30, or 35 with profane fury?

I added the "no chance of failure" bit.


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## freyar (Mar 3, 2008)

Guess so! 

Looks pretty good to me...


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 4, 2008)

Finished.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

Yup, he's done!


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

*Dragon Claw*
Lung Jua: petty demon
Frequency: Unique
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class:
Move: 24"
Hit Dice: 15 (120 hit points)
% in Lair: Nil
Treasure Type: Nil
No. of Attacks: 4/round
Damage/Attack: 1-6 (claws) or 1-8 (swords)
Special Attacks: Martial Arts, See below
Special Defenses: see below
Magic Resistance: 70%
Intelligence: Genius, but greedy
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Size: M
Psionic Ability: None

Lung Jua is a petty demon in the Celestial Bureaucracy. He is not a demon in the true gajin sense, but rather that is a description of his attitude to his work and others. He is petty, backbiting, evil, grumbling, grasping, lazy, and greedy.  He, like others of his type, will work to a plan only if that plan is his, and benefits him directly. He works within the framework of the Celestial Bureaucracy, looking for loopholes in their rulings for him to exploit. He will try to obey the letter of the law if not its spirit.

When one such as Lung Jua receives any power (such as the petition to "test" the other martial arts colleges in this adventure), he will exploit it to its maximum level, pushing others around, giving orders, and generally making life miserable for everyone involved. Lung Jua's chief goal is the advancement of Lung Jua; everything and everyone else is secondary.

Lung Jua is a repulsive-looking spirit, fat and four-armed, with the head of a dragon, and scales marring most of his body. He stands about half a head shorter than a man, but can enlarge to 10 feet tall in combat if need be (though this is usually to scare the locals more than to be effective in combat).

Lung Jua's powers include:  
shape change (three times a day);
instant regeneration (three times a day);
power word blind (once per day);
cloud trapeze (four times per day);
call;
teleport without error (four times per day);
withering palm (once per day);
true sight (four times per day);
metal to rust (four times per day);
dream vision (at will, but only at night);
exaction (once per week);
mental strength (four times per day).

All spell-like abilities are at 18th level mastery. Due to his petition, Lung Jua is immune to all spells involving charm or control of spirits.

In addition, Lung Jua is the master of the Dragon Claw style of combat, using powerful hooked swords to foul and break the opponent's weapons. The Dragon Claw swords have their own abilities. Whether Lung Jua created these swords or discovered them is unknown. Lung Jua carries the "master" set of Dragon Claw swords, from which all others are derived.

*Dragon Claws*

The Dragon Claws are an evil artifact that may or may not have a malicious will of their own. Their origin is unknown, though it is unlikely that a petty bureaucrat like Lung Jua could come up with them.

The Dragon Claws are a pair of hooked swords, golden in color and extremely sharp. They inflict 1-10 points of damage each and save versus crushing blow on a 2.  The greatest power of the Dragon Claw swords is to produce two more swords, which are then linked back to the original swords and their owner. The holder of the original Dragon Claws can see what the holders of the lesser swords can see, direct their actions and, using the Dragon Claw school of fighting, pull hit points from other holders of lesser swords to heal wounds (the holder of the original swords can never lose hit points in this fashion). The lesser
swords only inflict 1-8 points of damage.

The demon Lung Jua is the holder of the original Dragon Claws. If slain, or if Lung Jua transfers his consciousness into his statue, the swords disappear, teleporting to a new
location (where they may be discovered yet again . . . ).

Originally appeared in OA5: Mad Monkey vs the Dragon Claw (1988)


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

Note that using the "divide by 4.5" method, he'd have 26 HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 7, 2008)

So... we'll have to mess around with all of the SLAs, because most of those spells don't exist in 3e.

He should have crazy sundering powers for the Dragon Swords (like rend armor from the bebilith and/or the hook horror ability from MM2?) 

His size increase should either actually change his fighting prowess (enlarge like an efreet? righteous might?) or be reflected by a very high racial bonus to Intimidate checks.

Immune to mind-influencing abilities.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

Here are the obvious ones:

shape change (three times a day);
power word blind (once per day);
teleport without error (four times per day);
true sight (four times per day);

For some of the others, how about:

instant regeneration (three times a day); = heal?
withering palm (once per day); = give him the quivering palm monk ability, or something akin to wither limb?
metal to rust (four times per day); = rusting grasp?

These are a bit more challenging:
dream vision (at will, but only at night); dream?
cloud trapeze (four times per day); = wind walk?
call; = summon monster IX (one specific creature)?
exaction (once per week); = greater planar binding/gate?
mental strength (four times per day) = mind blank?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 7, 2008)

I say lump call and extraction into gate 1/day. Withering palm could be quivering palm ala a monk, but we could give him a touch attack that does Str or Con drain as an SLA that gets its own entry and isn't really a spell, like a mind flayer's mind blast.

Dream vision seems more like vision than dream (presumably he's receiving visions, not sending them). The rest of your replacements seem logical to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Leopold (Mar 7, 2008)

Spec him more martial like a warrior or monk? I'm favoring monk for certain things here as even though he may be CE everything below it reads as LE. 

Feats: Multi-attack, improved disarm, bull rush?






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Here are the obvious ones:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




3x:Regeneration/10 lasts for 5 rounds



> withering palm (once per day); = give him the quivering palm monk ability, or something akin
> to wither limb?




wither like this critter:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm

a dangerous touch attack that, if successful, causes the target to dehydrate and wither (2d10 points of desiccation damage). In addition, each successful tentacle attack drains 1 point of Strength, 1 point of Dexterity, and 1 point of Constitution. This is permanent ability drain and may only be reversed by spells such as restoration and greater restoration




> metal to rust (four times per day); = rusting grasp?




like the rust monster sure.




> dream vision (at will, but only at night); dream?




yes as per the spell add in time that it can be used.



> cloud trapeze (four times per day); = wind walk?



yes 

[/quote]
call; = summon monster IX (one specific creature)?
[/quote]

Summon 3 9th level LE monks with the fiendish template?



> exaction (once per week); = greater planar binding/gate?




Gate



> mental strength (four times per day) = mind blank?



[/quote]

Mind blank


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll summarize all that once I get the Homebrews going.  In order to do that, we'll need ability scores.

Int is Genius, so that would normally be 17-18.  But since he's epic, that can easily be higher.  Since he seems monklike, I'm thinking high Dex and Wis.   Cha should be high due to his reliance on SLAs.  Str and Con don't need to be super-high.

Looking at other 26 HD outsiders, his ability scores should add up to around 150-180.  So maybe Str 25, Dex 31, Con 23, Int 24, Wis 30, Cha 27?


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## Leopold (Mar 7, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'll summarize all that once I get the Homebrews going.  In order to do that, we'll need ability scores.
> 
> Int is Genius, so that would normally be 17-18.  But since he's epic, that can easily be higher.  Since he seems monklike, I'm thinking high Dex and Wis.   Cha should be high due to his reliance on SLAs.  Str and Con don't need to be super-high.
> 
> Looking at other 26 HD outsiders, his ability scores should add up to around 150-180.  So maybe Str 25, Dex 31, Con 23, Int 24, Wis 30, Cha 27?




STR 25
Dex 31
Con 26
Int 20
Wis 30
Chat 29

He's a tough lil bastard, so lets push his STR down a touch, up his Con some and reduce that Int. He's smart but not uber gneius. He's crafty more than anything and likes to play games and trick folks but can kick ass when it comes to it.

CR 15 range might work. Those summon abilities will be nasty. I still say we change his alignment to LE.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

I agree with Leopold about the alignment.  He really reads like LE, and he's not a true demon.

I think I'll wait to comment on the abilities till they're in homebrews.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I agree with Leopold about the alignment.  He really reads like LE, and he's not a true demon.




Fair enough.  You have a majority.    



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I think I'll wait to comment on the abilities till they're in homebrews.




Some of them are in there.

What monk abilities should he possess?  AC bonus seems like a good choice.  Maybe evasion?

We need to decide the powers of the Dragon Claws.   As a 26-HD outsider, he's going to be CR 21-22.  Compared to other unique outsiders of that CR with weapons, total plusses will be in the +7 to +8 range.   Since the Dragon Claws are a pair, +4 each?   We'll give 'em special sunder powers, of course.  Make 'em katanas, since they deal 1d10 and are of asian flavor?


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## Leopold (Mar 7, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> What monk abilities should he possess?  AC bonus seems like a good choice.  Maybe evasion?



evasion, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, improved disarm, monks' AC bonus from wisdom.  Whatever gives him the ability to wield 4 weapons at once.




> We need to decide the powers of the Dragon Claws.   As a 26-HD outsider, he's going to be CR 21-22.  Compared to other unique outsiders of that CR with weapons, total plusses will be in the +7 to +8 range.   Since the Dragon Claws are a pair, +4 each?   We'll give 'em special sunder powers, of course.  Make 'em katanas, since they deal 1d10 and are of asian flavor?




2 Adamantite Sundering Katanas +4

Dupes are the same only with 1d8 damage


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 8, 2008)

Give him the ability to have perfect two-weapon fighting, like a marilith. Give him Improved Sunder. Make the dragon claws adamantine. I agree with giving him evasion and Wis to AC. Instant regeneration could be a heal spell, or it could be something like Siragle's profane fury, like Leopold suggested. I'd make the regeneration in that case fast healing, and I'd boost the value to 15.

Oh, and if we're making his Dex that good, we should allow him to Finesse those dragon claws.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

I'm not quite sure what we've decided on this guy so far, but I agree with the perfect two weapon fighting and improved sunder and the monk ability suggestions.  However, based on the following, why are we giving the Dragon Claws special sundering powers?


> Dragon Claws
> 
> The Dragon Claws are an evil artifact that may or may not have a malicious will of their own. Their origin is unknown, though it is unlikely that a petty bureaucrat like Lung Jua could come up with them.
> 
> ...




My bold there.  I'd say that these should be +3 wounding adamantine katanas (or maybe +4 keen adamantine) with the appropriate special powers.  Bumpting the damage up from the usual 1d8 to 1d10 is probably worth a bit, so these would be then each about half as expensive as a +8 weapon before adding their special duplication property.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Psst. Katanas are already 1d10 weapons, being masterwork bastard swords.

Also, the line about sundering is: 
"In addition, Lung Jua is the master of the Dragon Claw style of combat, using powerful hooked swords to *foul and break the opponent's weapons*."

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

Ah, I didn't see katanas in the SRD, so I didn't realize that.  The price is even better, then, since the duplication ability is probably worth quite a lot.

Yeah, I saw the line about sundering, but that reads much more to be something Lung Jua does rather than a property of the weapons, especially since the weapon write-up doesn't mention it.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

Summarizing...

If we want to give him the ability to use Weapon Finesse with the Dragon Claws, we'll need to note somewhere that he treats them as light weapons.

"Sundering" doesn't appear to be a magic property in the SRD (although there is a psionic property, but I'm not sure that is appropriate, since it only grants the Improved Sunder feat, which Lung Jua should possess himself).

Reading the text, I can see arguments for either Lung Jua or the Dragon Claws (or both) having the ability to sunder other weapons well.  

I'd imagine the "hooked" nature of the blades would grant a +2 bonus on disarm checks like most hooked weapons.

How about we go with +4 keen adamantine katanas, like freyar suggested.  The adamantine will already help with the sundering.  We can give Lung Jua Improved Sunder and Epic Sunder, making him more than proficient at destroying weapons.

Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Then the swords don't necessarily have any sundering powers. But we could give Lung Jua:

Fouler of Weapons (Su): Lung Jua gains a +4 bonus on any opposed attack roll made to sunder an item. Any weapon that Lung Jua deals damage to but is not destroyed becomes warped and corrupted, imposing a -3 penalty on all attack rolls made with that weapon until repaired by a successful Craft check or _make whole_.

I still think we should also give him a rend armor ability, ala the bebilith.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

I think the swords are shaping up well.  I like the fouler of weapons ability, too.  Rend armor is also fine with me.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Updated.

Here's a stab at the Dragon Claws:

Dragon Claws:  Lung Jua wields a pair of artifacts known as the Dragon Claws.  These +4 keen adamantine katanas.  The wielder of the Dragon Claws may command the artifacts to create lesser versions of themselves.  This lesser pair is smaller and deals less damage (treat as +4 keen adamantine longswords).  The wielder of the Dragon Claws can see through the eyes of the bearer of any lesser blades they have spawned.  Additionally, the wielder may attempt to direct the actions of the bearer of the lesser weapons as if using a dominate monster spell (Will DC X negates).  Finally, the wielder of the originals may leech hit points from any bearer of lesser blades it spawns.  The bearer can drain up to X hit points, and cannot drain more than the victim's current hit point total.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

I like that.  I'd suggest 10 hp per bearer per day, just by fiat.

Does he need more special abilities?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

I don't think so.  Shall we move on to feats and skills?

Skills: 13 at 29 ranks
Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble

Feats: 9 (2 can be epic); 
We already mentioned Epic Sunder, Improved Sunder, Multiweapon Fighting, and Weapon Finesse.

Epic Sunder requires Epic Prowess as a prereq, so that takes care of the two epic feats.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

Multi-weapon fighting? Doesn't he only have two arms and two swords?

His feats should include Combat Expertise. He strikes me as a tricky sort of fighter. If we wanted to soak up all his feats, we could also give him the Dodge chain and Whirlwind Attack. If not, Improved Trip would be good, as would the traditional Power Attack + Improved Bull's Rush + Awesome Blow set.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Multi-weapon fighting? Doesn't he only have two arms and two swords?




Four arms.  Two swords.   I assumed he was wielding each blade with two hands on the attack lines.  Alternatively, we could have him wield each with one hand and allow two claw attacks with them.

Should Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword/katana) be a bonus feat?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

Give him two-weapon fighting and say in a Feats line that Lung Jua can fight without penalty with two weapons of any size, as long as he uses two arms to stabilize them.

I think we should give him the option of four claws (or four slams, since he seems to be more monkish) in his attack line, though.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.

I gave him a few more feats in the TWF chain so he'd get more attacks with the Dragon Claws, and use a few of the feats suggested above.

Natural armor bonus?  His AC currently stands at 34 without natural armor.

Challenge Rating: 22?  (He's about on par with the FC version of Graz'zt and Orcus)

Treasure: Dragon Claws only?  (His original entry said "nil")



> Lung Jua is a repulsive-looking spirit, fat and four-armed, with the head of a dragon, and scales marring most of his body. He stands about half a head shorter than a man




Lung Jua is x feet tall and weighs x pounds.

Lung Jua speaks x.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

Lung Jua speaks Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic and Common.

I say we give him some natural armor. After all, he's covered in scales.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

Natural armor makes sense.  What's the guide for AC on demon lords, etc?

5 and a quarter feet and 200 lb?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2008)

The demon lord template suggests a final AC of CR+20.  In this case, that would be 42, and would leave +8 for natural armor.   Seem reasonable?

Fill in a few X's...

Change Size (Sp): *X * per day, Lung Jua can magically change his size. This works just like an enlarge person spell, except that the ability can work on Lung Jua. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Dragon Claws: Lung Jua wields a pair of artifacts known as the Dragon Claws. These +4 keen adamantine katanas. The wielder of the Dragon Claws may command the artifacts to create lesser versions of themselves. This lesser pair is smaller and deals less damage (treat as +4 keen adamantine longswords). The wielder of the Dragon Claws can see through the eyes of the bearer of any lesser blades they have spawned. Additionally, the wielder may attempt to direct the actions of the bearer of the lesser weapons as if using a dominate monster spell (Will *DC X * negates). Finally, the wielder of the originals may leech hit points from any bearer of lesser blades it spawns. The bearer can drain up to 10 hit points, and cannot drain more than the victim's current hit point total.

Rend Armor (Ex): If Lung Jua hits with both Dragon Claw attacks, he pulls apart any armor worn by his foe. This attack *deals x (bebelith=4d6+18) points of damage * to the opponent’s armor. Creatures not wearing armor are unaffected by this special attack. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

3/day?

Well, if we took a wizard casting dominate monster, that's already DC23 at mininum.  Does that sound reasonable?  This is also less likely to affect the PCs directly, rather Lung Jua's minions.

The bebelith damage is probably reasonable b/c LJ is going to be higher CR, so 4d6+2*Str?  OTOH, he is smaller and slightly weaker, so I could see dropping it a step or two.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2008)

On second thought, for rend armor, why not just use the damage of both Dragon Claws plus double Str bonus, yielding 2d10+14?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> On second thought, for rend armor, why not just use the damage of both Dragon Claws plus double Str bonus, yielding 2d10+14?



 Ok, works for me.  Is he done?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

I believe so!


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

FENRIS WOLF
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVE: 24"/12"
HIT DICEIPOINTS: 400 hp
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: I
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 9-90
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +4 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 99%
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT Chaotic evil
SIZE: L (50' at the shoulder)
PSlONlC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE X/33,200

This wolfish monster lived in Asgard due to a technicality that allowed the offspring of the gods (in this case Loki's) to remain unharmed by other gods. But this dangerous creature could not remain free. The dwarves made the only chain that could bind it, forging it from thoughts and concepts. This silken, golden thread stopped the creature from roaming, as
it was unbreakable until the time of Ragnarok.

The wolf's bite does 9-90 points of damage, and if the total amount of damage is more than half of the victim's hit points, he or she will be swallowed whole. In form,the creature looks like a giant timber wolf.

Originally appeared in Deities & Demigods (1980).


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

This guy should be a real beast.

Using the "divide by 4.5" method, it would have 88 Hit Dice.

The brachyurus, which may have been descended from it,  has 38 HD and advances up to 135 HD, so this isn't unreasonable.

Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

OK... 88 hit dice, improved grab and swallow whole... as written, it doesn't have anything else, but it really should. It's the damn Fenris-wolf! 

Recommendations:

Unfetterable: Freedom of movement active, all the time, undispellable. Recall that a very, very, very magical chain had to be forged to imprison him, and he eventually gets out anyway at the end of the world.

Severing Bite: He ate the hand of a god, after all. He's epic--let's make those high level PCs use their regenerate spells the way they were intended!

The brachyurus has frightful howl and an ability to save prone opponents, both of which I like a lot, and it makes sense for Fenris to keep. Of course, we should give him trip too, so he can actually use the savaging more often. 

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Severing Bite: He ate the hand of a god, after all. He's epic--let's make those high level PCs use their regenerate spells the way they were intended!




Amen to that!

I'm on-board with everything else you posted.

Brachyurus scores:  Str 30, Dex 38, Con 47, Int 18, Wis 32, Cha 19

Since the Fenris Wolf is 50-freaking-feet-tall, I'd say he's Colossal.

Boosting those scores to Colossal yields:  Str 54, Dex 36, Con 59, Int 18, Wis 32, Cha 19

Brach's claws deal 2d6, bite 3d6.  Bumping to Colossal goes to claws 5d6, bite 6d6.

Even with 54 Str, the bite still is only doing 30-60 points of damage.  That's still 30 points shy of the 90 it could do on the high end.

How about combining severing bite with augmented critical to this:

Augmented Critical (Ex): The Fenris wolf's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.  Additionally, the victim must succeed on a DC X Fort(?) save or lose a hand or foot (Fenris wolf's choice?)   (Go on to describe what happens when missing said appendages).


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

Wow, that's pretty, well, monstrous.  I definitely like all the above.  Stats look reasonable.  For the severing, maybe Reflex works better than Fortitude as the save (getting your leg out of the way).  Maybe missing a hand gives a -4 penalty to all weapon attack rolls (and removes a claw or slam attack if any); missing a foot gives a -4 to AC and 20 ft reduction in land speed (minimum 5 ft)?  Or is that too wimpy?  I have no idea at this kind of CR.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Then increase those damages to 10d6 for claws, 12d6 for the bite! This is epic! The actual damage done doesn't matter as much as the Fort-save-or-die made every round!

I'm only partly joking.

Since it's so damn big, I say give it Trample. Looking to inspiration from all those kaiju I wrote up way back when might net us some more abilities, like...

Battle Frenzy (Ex): When Godzilla is reduced to 25% of its total hit, he gains a +4 inherent bonus to Strength and can make an additional melee attack with its claws each round at a –5 penalty (since Fenris' primary attack is his bite, we should change it to that). These benefits cease when Godzilla is healed above 25% of it hit points or reaches zero hit points.

Feed (as per a barghest; we could even say that Fenris' spittle formed barghests as he struggled against his chains)


Shockwave (Ex): Anguirus can hurl himself to the ground as a standard action to create a localized earthquake. All creatures within 100ft of Anguirus must make Reflex saves (DC 58) or fall prone. Structures in the radius take 4d6 points of damage instead.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.  Wow!

Its speed translates to 60 ft., fly 30 ft.   The brachyurus has a speed of 80 ft., and I think it should be at least that fast.  I'm not really sure why it has a fly speed, either.

Other brachyurus traits we may want to borrow/amplify:

Blindsight 240 ft., damage reduction 10/epic, fast healing 10, resistance to acid 20, cold 20, electricity 20, fire 20, and sonic 20, scent


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

Let's go to 100 ft for a base speed.  Really not sure about the flight.  The rest of the brachyurus traits sound good.

Quoting myself on the augmented critical:


> For the severing, maybe Reflex works better than Fortitude as the save (getting your leg out of the way). Maybe missing a hand gives a -4 penalty to all weapon attack rolls (and removes a claw or slam attack if any); missing a foot gives a -4 to AC and 20 ft reduction in land speed (minimum 5 ft)? Or is that too wimpy? I have no idea at this kind of CR.




The frightful howl should have a larger radius.  Maybe 1 mile?  Should be more than the 300 ft that shadow mastiffs and yeth hounds get.

I think the shockwave should do sonic damage as well as making characters fall prone, maybe 4d6 like structures?  Doesn't need to be too much.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

OK, so how about:

-Speed:  100 ft. (no fly speed)
-Blindsight 240 ft. 
-Damage reduction 20/epic
-Fast healing 20
-Resistance to acid 30, cold 30, electricity 30, fire 30, and sonic 30
-Scent
-Frightful howl radius of 1 mile

I'm not sure if the shockwave needs to deal sonic damage on top of everything else.  Anyone else?

Can anyone figure out the formula for the savage ability?   The brachyurus successfully deals an additional 15d6+25 of damage with its savage ability.  Its attacks are 2 claws (2d6+10/19-20) and bite (3d6+5/19-20).  I'm failing to see how that equates to 15d6+25 (unless it simply quintuples the bite damage and its associated Str bonus to damage).



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> For the severing, maybe Reflex works better than Fortitude as the save (getting your leg out of the way). Maybe missing a hand gives a -4 penalty to all weapon attack rolls (and removes a claw or slam attack if any); missing a foot gives a -4 to AC and 20 ft reduction in land speed (minimum 5 ft)? Or is that too wimpy? I have no idea at this kind of CR.




Per the wither limb spell:  "You choose to wither either the arms or the legs of a humanoid. Withered legs force a subject to fall prone while at the same time reducing the subject's land speed to 5 feet. Withered arms make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components."

Per the DMG Variant: Damage to Specific Areas:  "When a specific body part takes damage, you can apply a -2 penalty to any action that the character undertakes using that portion of his body.  Arm = Climb and Swim checks; attack rolls; Strength checks.   Foot/Leg = Climb, Swim, Jump, Ride, Tumble, Balance, and Move Silently checks; Dexterity checks; Reflex saving throws."


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2008)

Let's go with the limb-withering variant. 

And I say sure! Quintuple the damage! Muahahaha!

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

Updated.

Brachyurus has +17 natural armor.  Upsizing to Colossal adds +12, for a total of +29.

That gives us AC 44 (-8 size, +13 Dex, +29 natural).  

Is that sufficient?

Skills: 6 at 91 ranks (546 total)
Brach has max ranks in Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival 
Wolves and dire wolves have similar skills.

Wolves and dire wolves have a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks.  *They also has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

Brachs have no racial skill bonuses.


Feats: 23 (16 can be epic)
Brach has Alertness, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Critical (claw), Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Multiattack, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)
Dire wolf has Alertness, Run, Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
Wolf has Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite)


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2008)

The AC is probably way too low for the CR it's supposed to be.

I say give it wolf racial bonuses. Ramp 'em up to bigger (+10?) numbers.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

This thing is Xixecal-tough, and that fella's got AC 58 (+55 natural).

I like the idea of pumping up the wolf's racial skills.

Max ranks in the usual wolf skills (Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival)?

Feats: 23 (16 can be epic)
Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Devastating Critical (bite), Dire Charge, Epic Fortitude, Epic Will, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Critical (claw), Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Legendary Leaper, Multiattack, Power Attack, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Superior Initiative, Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)?


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Wow, moving right along.  This all looks good.  Why not go with at least +43 natural?  Maybe +50 if AC 65 isn't too high.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm telling ya...epic level creatures are actually easier to convert.  It is one of life's great conundrums.    

I think +50 is reasonable.  This thing is the child of a deity, after all.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

Updated.

Fill in the X's:

Swallow Whole (Ex): The Fenris wolf can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes x points of crushing damage plus x points of acid damage per round from the Fenris wolf’s digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing x points of damage to the Fenris wolf's digestive tract (AC 35). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The Fenris wolf's gullet can hold x Huge, x Large, x Medium, x Small, or x Tiny or smaller creatures.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Dear heavens.  How about 24d6+Str crushing and 12d6+Con acid?  Maybe 200 hp to cut out?  How about 2 Huge, 4 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, 512 Diminutive, 2048 Fine?


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Sounds good.  I dropped the separate number for fine and just went with "Diminutive or smaller creatures).   Flies everywhere just breathed a sigh of relief.    

Updated.

All that remains is CR and weight.

It compares favorably to the xixecal at CR 36.  Maybe a few CR higher due to the extra 900 or so hp and slightly higher attack modifiers?

The similarly 50-foot-tall tarrasque weighs 130 tons.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

I'm totally just guessing on CR, but does CR 40 make sense?

130 tons is fine with me, though maybe a wolf-thing would be a little lighter than a godzilla-thing.  I'd be ok with going as light as 100 tons.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

He's fairly thin in the pictures on Wikipedia, so I could see that.

Updated.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2008)

Switch "an" to "any" in the unfetterable entry, and it looks good. Although you might want to mention that epic-level magic can bind Fenris Wolf, although a specific item or spell would have to be designed (as indeed it was).

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Good suggestion.  Updated.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

Looks good from here, too.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

*Thunder Bird*
Freq: Unique
# App: 1
AC: -2
Move: 15"//24"
Hit Dice/Points: 200
% in Lair: 25%
Treasure Type: U (x 3)
# Att: 2
Dmg/Att: 2-20/1-10
SA: Lightning
SD: Never surprised
MR: 32%
Int: Genius
Alignment: Chaotic good
Size: L (12')
Psionics: Nil
Level/XP Value: X/22,600

This great bird attacks by biting with its beak for 1-10 points and bludgeoning with its wings for 2-20 points of damage.  It can cast one lightning bolt per round at any target from 50 to 300 yards away.  Each bolt does 30 points of damage (save for half damage).  It is never surprised because of the warning that its superb senses give the creature.  When it is ready to attack, its wings beat together and thunder sounds.

The Thunder Bird warns of great disaster and is often found fighting evil creatures of great power that have been summoned by the enemies of good tribes.  This creature is never invoked.  It always comes of its own will and does not leave until the battle is done.  It has been known to die in several battles against powerful beings, only to appear again years later to confront another evil. 

Originally appered in Deities and Demigods (1980).


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

I believe this is different enough from the thunderbird in Sandstorm to warrant its own conversion.

Using the "divide by 4.5" rule, it would have 44 Hit Dice.


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Cool, like an electrical phoenix.  Magical beast or outsider?  I lean toward Outsider.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Since the phoenix is a magical beast, I'm leaning that way.


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

Outsider (native), I think.


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## freyar (May 17, 2008)

I think the Outsider bit may be due to some of the Pathfinder divine heralds (I'm looking at the night monarch).  Given the phoenix and this


> This creature is never invoked. It always comes of its own will and does not leave until the battle is done.



I think I'll go back toward Magical Beast.


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

I still like native outsider, because it conveys that the thunder bird is "special" compared to other monsters of its ilk (think Pathfinder's wendigo). Also, there's very few native outsiders, so I kind of want to rectify that.


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Let's try it out as outsider and see where it goes.  That will help further differentiate it from the "lesser" thunderbirds.

Let's move on to ability scores....

Thunderbird (H): Str 28, Dex 17, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 17
Phoenix (L):  Str 18, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 21

It looks like this fellow is Large, so downsizing the thunderbird stats to Large yields...

Str 20, Dex 19, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 17

That puts it more in-line with the phoenix stats.   We know its Int is Genius (17-18), so how about...

Str 20, Dex 19, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 19?


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## demiurge1138 (May 19, 2008)

Those stats are pretty low for something with 44 HD, don't you think?


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Yeah, probably so.

Here is a sampling of other high-HD critters:

Brachyurus (38 HD): Str 30, Dex 38, Con 47, Int 18, Wis 32, Cha 19 = 184 points
Sirrush (40 HD): Str 42, Dex 40, Con 44, Int 21, Wis 38, Cha 28 = 213 points
Tayellah (34 HD): Str 32, Dex 48, Con 34, Int 14, Wis 32, Cha 19 = 179 points
Tarrasque (48 HD): Str 45, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 14 = 259 points

Perhaps its ability scores should at least add up to 200 points?

Looking at it again, it appears like Con should probably be its highest stat, since its lightning attack will probably be a breath weapon, and thus Con-based.  It doesn't appear to be incredibly strong for its size, but I could see a high Dex.  Any of the mental stats could be good, due to its genius intellect, superb senses, and apparent courage and willpower.


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## demiurge1138 (May 19, 2008)

Agree to crazy Con, high Dex, not stellar Str (only in the ~30 range). The 200 point sum seems like a good thing to shoot for.


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

How about Str 30, Dex 41, Con 46, Int 21, Wis 33, Cha 29?


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

Those ability scores appeal to me.


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

These all look fine by me, too.  I'm also fine with lightning as a breath weapon (rather than some version of SLA).  If so, is 300 yd = 900 ft reasonable, or should we restrict to 150 ft (the low end of the range)?


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I don't think 900 feet is unrealistic for an epic creature.



> SD: Never surprised





> It is never surprised because of the warning that its superb senses give the creature.




Improved uncanny dodge and/or improved evasion?



> MR: 32%




What an odd number.  That falls between CR+7 and CR+8.  I'd lean toward the latter.



> When it is ready to attack, its wings beat together and thunder sounds.




Some sort of deafening clap or other ability?



> This creature is never invoked.  It always comes of its own will and does not leave until the battle is done.




Some sort of "unsummonable" ability?  Note that not even gates or epic spells can call it?



> It has been known to die in several battles against powerful beings, only to appear again years later to confront another evil.




Rejuvenation/rebirth ability?


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Improved uncanny dodge and/or improved evasion?



Both, I think.  It should also have good Spot and Listen.



> What an odd number.  That falls between CR+7 and CR+8.  I'd lean toward the latter.



Go with CR+8.


> Some sort of deafening clap or other ability?



Was thinking the same thing myself.   We could upgrade greater shout for this.


> Some sort of "unsummonable" ability?  Note that not even gates or epic spells can call it?



Sure.  But maybe it should also have some way to know when nasty evil beings are summoned places, too.


> Rejuvenation/rebirth ability?



Yes.  

Rebirth (Su): One year after the Thunder Bird is killed, it is reborn at full maturity and in perfect health, and it goes to the aid of beseiged cultures as is its norm.  The Thunder Bird is always reborn in the same location, though no one has ever discovered the place.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Updated.

Do we want to borrow any of this from the lesser thunderbirds in Sandstorm?


talon attacks
immunity to electricity and sonic
resistance to acid 10 and fire 10
Spell-Like Abilities: At will--call lightning (DC 16), fog cloud, shout (DC 17); 3/day--call lightning storm (DC 18), greater shout (DC 21), sandstorm, solid fog; 1/day--earthquake (DC 21). Caster level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 

We might also want to incorporate some of this which I found on Wikipedia:

"Clouds are pulled together by its wingbeats, the sound of thunder made by its wings clapping, sheet lightning the light flashing from its eyes when it blinks, and individual lightning bolts made by the glowing snakes that it carries around with it. In masks, it is depicted as many-colored, with two curling horns, and, often, teeth within its beak."

"The singular Thunderbird (as the Nuu-chah-nulth thought of him) was said to reside on the top of a mountain, and was the servant of the Great Spirit. The Thunderbird only flew about to carry messages from one spirit to another. It was also told that the thunderbird controlled rainfall."


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## demiurge1138 (May 21, 2008)

I like the idea of controlling weather, through control weather and winds spells, but think that SLAs that do electricity and sonic damage will be redundant. I do like talon attacks and electricity/sonic immunity, though. Not sure about the other elemental resistances, although it would make sense for a critter of these epic proportions.


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Definitely talons, immunities, and resistance as above (maybe even stronger resistance).  I agree that the electric and sonic SLAs are a bit redundant, but we should add some other weather/druidic type ones.  Borrowing from what we did for the sea titan, why not whirlwind and storm of vengeance, maybe SNA IX and/or Mass Cure Critical?


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Hmmm...I'd almost rather see a supernatural ability for creating storms, along the lines of "Clouds are pulled together by its wingbeats, the sound of thunder made by its wings clapping".

I can see most of those except summon nature's ally, as I get more of a "I stand alone" vibe for this guy.

Just brainstorming here, but maybe would could pilfer some things from the storm elementals...

Thunder and Lightning (Su): Once per minute as a full-round action, a storm elemental can emit a blast of thunder coupled with a bolt of lightning.  The thunder deals sonic damage (see chart) to all creatures within 60 feet of the storm elemental. A Fortitude save halves this damage.  The lightning is a 120-foot-long line that deals electricity damage (see table). A Reflex save halves this damage. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Electrical and Sonic Healing (Ex): Storm elementals take no damage from electricity and sonic attacks. Instead, any electricity attack (such as shocking grasp or lightning bolt) or sonic attack (such as sound burst) used against a storm elemental heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. The storm elemental can't heal hit points by attacking itself.


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Well, rather than the SLAs, I can see the Thunder part of Thunder & Lightning.  Maybe add that it creates a storm of vengeance if it Thunders for 3 rounds in a row or something?  I think the breath weapon would account for the lightning, though.  I like electric and sonic healing.


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

I like electric and sonic healing, as well as the idea that it's constantly surrounded by a storm of vengeance. Maybe we can steal from the marut inevitable for its melee attacks? Wing attacks of thunder, talons of lightning?


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Good call.  So rather than a separate Thunder ability, it does extra damage on melee.  I also like the "storm of vengeance aura."  Going with that:

Surrounding Storm (Su): The Thunder Bird is constantly surrounded by a storm of vengeance (as the spell at CL X).  The storm acts as if the spell were in its 10th continuous round of effect, but the storm does not end after any set number of rounds.  The Thunder Bird can suppress or reinstate this aura as a free action.

Wings of Thunder (Su): The Thunder Bird's wing attacks deliver a loud thunderclap when they make a successful hit, dealing an extra 4d12? points of sonic damage to the target.  In addition, the victim must make a DC X Fort save or be deafened permanently.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Talons of Lightning (Su): The Thunder Bird's talon attacks deliver a bright shock of electricity to the target on a successful hit, dealing an extra 4d12? points of electricity damage.  In addition, the victim must make a DC X Fort save or be blinded permanently.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

I have really no idea about the damage, but I feel like d12s need more use.


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

I, too, support the use of the d12. Love the surrounding storm mechanic. How wide is it? The full radius of a storm of vengeance? Or smaller? Because storm of vengeance has a huge radius. Also, in order to make full use of the storm, a thunderbird should either have a "storm eyes" SQ (where its ability to see is never compromised by weather) or blindsight.


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Well, this is epic, so I guess I just thought the full radius storm.  But you're right, it's worth thinking about.  Any ideas?  I also like the "storm eyes" idea a lot.


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Great stuff, guys!   And more power to the d12!    

Updated.

Does this capture what you were thinking?

Eyes of the Storm (Su): The Thunder Bird's vision is never negatively affected by weather conditions.

Do we want to keep the bite as the primary attack or switch to the talons like most of the other great birds?


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

Shade's Eye of the Storm looks good. And I think we should switch to talons as primary.


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

24d12 for breath weapon damage?  That's two die steps up from the great wyrm blue dragon.

Should we give it an ability that makes its flight unaffected by wind conditions?

Good maneuverability like the lesser thunderbird?


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

All that sounds good to me.  Should we put the natural attack damage one step larger than usual for Large critters?


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Sounds good.

Natural armor bonus?

The lesser thunderbird has +7.
The phoneix has +6 (but also has +5 deflection).

Thanks to its continuous storm of vengeance, it already benefits from concealment.  We can add a deflection bonus as well if you'd like.


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Let's go with +10 natural and think about the deflection bonus.  Not sure how big the AC should be; this thing has quite a few HD.

For Eyes of the Storm, should we say explicitly that the Thunder Bird ignores concealment due to magical and nonmagical weather effects, including rain and fog?


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Sure, we can be explicit in the text.

Skills: 13 at 47 ranks
Lesser thunderbirds have Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Listen, and Spot

Feats: 15 (8 can be epic)
Lesser thunderbirds have Flyby Attack, Hover, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Skills (all maxed): Bluff, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Spot, Survival.

I went heavy on Knowledge b/c I had a hard time coming up with 13 really useful skills.  Its special abilities don't really seem to require Concentration, but we could swap that in for something (Survival?) if you like.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Let's swap out Knowledge (arcana) for Tumble, as I can see it "rolling" through the clouds.  Sense Motive seems a good option as well, maybe in place of Knowledge (geography) or Survival?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Tumble is good.  Let's put Sense Motive in for Survival.  I think geography might be useful for knowing where evil tribes, etc, are.  This thing has to travel a lot.

Quick question: the effects of a storm of vengeance are cumulative, right?  So the 3rd round effect occurs also in the 4th-10th rounds?

Feats: Flyby Attack, Hover, Cleave, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch, Ability Focus (Surrounding Storm), Penetrate Damage Reduction (silver), Penetrate Damage Reduction (cold iron), Aligned Attack, Improved Flyby Attack, Great Cleave,  Weapon Focus (talons), Improved Critical (talons), Overwhelming Critical (talons)

Instead of the Cleave, Great Cleave, WF, IC, OC chain, I could also see going to Epic Will, Imp Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Leadership, Epic Leadership.  I picked Penetrate DR twice and Aligned Attack (even though it's psionic) because the Thunder Bird fights summoned critters a lot, probably including demons and devils.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Updated.

Yes, I believe the effects of storm of vengeance are cumulative.

For the feats, we can drop aligned attack.  I forgot to give it the Chaotic and Good subtypes, which will automatically treat all its natural attacks as chaotic and good for overcoming DR (a sentence which I'll add to the combat section, as usual).

I'd rather avoid Leadership, since it randomly appears by itself.   Plus, with its crazy high Diplomacy, it can easily rally some troops if needed.  

How about...

Ability Focus (Surrounding Storm), Blinding Speed, Epic Will, Fast Healing, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Critical (talons), Improved Flyby Attack, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack, Penetrate Damage Reduction (cold iron), Penetrate Damage Reduction (silver), Power Attack, Snatch?

If you'd rather just give it fast healing as an ability, we can replace that feat.


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

This works for me.  As for Fast Healing, I'm not sure what feat to replace it with if we drop it.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Updated.

I rewrote the surrounding storm ability to avoid having to reference the storm of vengeance spell (and also to help work in the save DCs for the various effects).

Environment: x

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: None?

The thunder bird is 12 feet long with a x foot wingspan and weighs about x pounds.

The thunder bird speaks x.


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

Looks good.

Environment: Any land.
CR: upper 30s?
Treasure: None is ok.  Was there not a treasure entry in the original?
30 foot wingspan, not sure about weight.  Any other large birds to compare?
Common, Celestial, Draconic, Sylvan, Auran, more?


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## GrayLinnorm (May 27, 2008)

In the original entry, it had treasure type Ux3.

The thunderbird from Sandstorm has standard coins, double goods and items.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

Then let's give this thing some treasure, shall we?  If Ux3 is big enough, we can even equip it.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

U:
10-80 gems: 90%
5-30 jewelry: 80%
Maps or Magic Items: 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%

So a straight translation would probably look like no coins, triple goods, and probably quintuple items.


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2008)

...where does it keep them, though? I assume that this means that thunderbirds have lairs?


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

Tucked into its feathers of course! 

Well, it does have a special rebirthing place, but I was thinking of items that it could use itself.  Rings, a cloak, something like that.  Or it could wear a bandolier.  We could go with no treasure 
if you have a strong feeling, but, if a dragon can use magic items, why can't the Thunder Bird?


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Updated with flavor text.

If we want to let it use items (which makes sense, considering its vast horde and keen intellect), we shoudl shift some skill ranks to Use Magic Device.  I'd recommend simply dropping Knowledge (geography) and transferring all those ranks to UMD.

I can't really picture it wearing a cape, but I could see it with rings and maybe a belt or bandolier, as freyar suggested.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (May 29, 2008)

UMD is fine if we want it to use spell-trigger items; I wasn't necessarily suggesting that, though I can see it.

No idea what the gp value of this treasure should be.  But maybe a ring of freedom of movement would be good.  If it can afford it, a ring of spell turning would be nice, but I could see a pair of friend shielding rings (one for it, one for someone else).  Maybe something like a rod of security or negation.  Some kind of amulet?  Something to help it banish creatures would be great, but I can't think of what would be good for that.


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## demiurge1138 (May 29, 2008)

Yeah! Use Magic Device!


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

Updated with UMD ranks and a few other suggestions above.

A giant eagle (L) weighs 500 pounds.
Giant owls have no listed weight.
Thunderbirds have no listed weight.
The phoenix has no listed weight.

Go with 500 pounds?

For languages, freyar suggested Auran, Common, Celestial, Draconic, Sylvan?   Look good?

For CR, it's about on par with the CR 31 dream larva.   Does that sound reasonable?


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## demiurge1138 (May 29, 2008)

The languages and CR sound reasonable.


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

Updated.

I like the idea of a ring of freedom of movement.  How about also giving it an epic ring of ironskin (grants damage reduction 15/adamantine)?

Other suggestions:

bracers of armor +8
amulet of mighty fists +5 (so it can overcome DR/magic)
gem of seeing


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

I like the gem of seeing.  How much of this stuff can it "afford"?  Here's my priority order: ring of freedom of movement, gem of seeing, amulet of mighty fists, epic ring of ironskin, bracers of armor.  If we're going with UMD, we should load it with some staves and wands, though they can be less expensive perhaps.


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

I can't find NPC wealth for epic levels, but a 31st-level starting PC gets 4,900,000 gp worth of gear.

An EL 31 encounter has an average value of 227,000 gp.

At EL 31, "No coins; triple goods; quintuple items" would equate to:
12d10 gems, 21d6 art, 5d4 medium magic items, 5d3 major magic items, plus more than 42 additional random major items!

Costs for the items above: 
ring of freedom of movement = 40,000 gp
epic ring of ironskin = 400,000 gp
bracers of armor +8 = 64,000 gp
amulet of mighty fists +5 (so it can overcome DR/magic) = 150,000 gp
gem of seeing = 75,000 gp

The only other monster with gear I could find in a similar CR range, the CR 26 sample worm that walks carries the following gear:  Scrolls of fireball (10th-level caster), greater teleport, acid fog, incendiary cloud, time stop, wail of the banshee, Bigby's clenched fist, horrid wilting, maze, summon monster IX; potions of cure serious wounds, alter self, haste, fly. Other magic gear: amulet of natural armor +2, bracers of armor +8, ring of protection +3, +4 staff, rod of absorption, gloves of Dexterity +4, headband of intellect +6, pink Ioun stone, wings of flying.


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

I hope that's 42 additional random minor items instead of major ones. 

Ok, without looking up the worm-that-walks's gear prices, I think we can afford all we have so far and some.  What if we say those 5 things and an assortment of wands and scrolls?  We could add an Ioun stone, I guess, but that might be a tiny bit corny-looking.


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

Updated.

Let's skip scrolls, as I can't get past the image of a massive, thundercloud-surrounded hawk attempting to unroll one with its talons.  

Wands, rods, and staves are a bit more believable.  Do we want to list these items, or just state that it carries xdx random wands, rods, and staves?


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

Let's do xdx.  1d4 major wands, rods, & staves, 2d4 medium, and assorted minor?  Do those numbers sound right?


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

Rather than saying "assorted minor", how about 1d6?   It needn't carry it's whole hoard (or even a portion of it), so no sense bogging it down.


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

Go 2d6 or 3d6 while we're at it, and I think we're ok.


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (May 31, 2008)

Unless anyone else thinks of something, I'm happy with it.


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## demiurge1138 (May 31, 2008)

Check and check. I think we're done here.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2008)

Synergy time!   Here's the guy the bauh-yin serve....

*Black Leopard*
Greater Spirit
Frequency: Unique
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: -1
Move: 12"/24"
Hit Dice: 25 (110 hit points)
% in Lair: Nil
Treasure Type: Nil
No. of Attacks: 3
Damage/Attack: 1-10 (claws), 1-12 (bite)
Special Attacks: see below
Special Defenses: see below
Magic Resistance: 50%
Intelligence: Godlike
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Size: L
Psionic Ability: None

Bauhei, the Black Leopard, is one of the old spirits who dates back to the ancient times before the Celestial Bureaucracy, before the time of the Nine Immortals. It is said that he ruled the broad waters of the Fenghsintzu River in a wise but powerful way, ruling from strength, as it was intended in those ancient, savage days.

With the triumph of the Celestial Bureaucracy, the Black Leopard lost much of his power, but remains a greater spirit whose name still commands respect and inspires fear. The Black Leopard appears either as a huge, well-muscled man with the head of a black leopard, or as a great black cat.

While the Black Leopard himself is "Unaligned and Free" (neutral and chaotic) in nature, his followers in Kara-Tur have often erred in their worship. At one point Black Leopard was held captive by his own priests, who in turn became corrupt on the power he granted them. The Shou Lung hero Tan Chin broke that power, and though his triumph weakened the Black Leopard, Bauhei was pleased because it also destroyed those who used his power to false ends.

The Black Leopard is still remembered among the common people of Fenghsintzu as a champion for the oppressed and one who resists the power of others. A large and growing secret society in his name is flourishing in the lands of T'u Lung, and though he lends aid as he sees fit, he does not meddle in the affairs of mortals as much as he once did with the priests.

Black Leopard creates awe in all who view him that are less than 4th level (no saving throw). In addition, Black Leopard has the following powers; shape change (to any other cat or catlike creature, at will); giant size, at will; teleport without error up to three times a day. He may also cast spells like a 10th level shukenja.

Black Leopard is one of the old spirits, worshipped long ago, but now remembered as little more than a folk tale, usually in a bad light, thanks to his former priests. He cares little for mortals but has a passing interest in the secret society that takes his name. He will be roused to action by those using his name in vain or using his old temples for evil activities.

Originally appeared in OA5 - Mad Monkey vs. the Dragon Claw (1988).


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

So, is 25 HD about right still?  Without taking into account a Con bonus, that's about 4.5 hp per HD.

For stats, a bit higher on Str than Dex?  Godlike Int = ?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2008)

Godlike was 22+ in 2e. 

Although giant size is a non-core spell these days, it's easy to replicate. We just give it the Sp ability to become Colossal, with all the stat changes that entails.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Yep, 25 HD is still good.

Looking at other similar-HD uniques, its ability scores should add up to around 150-160.

How about...

Str 30, Dex 28, Con 23, Int 30, Wis 23, Cha 25


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Those sound good to me.  Alternate Form or Change Shape?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Probably alternate form.

Added to Homebrews assuming those ability scores.

Shall we give him some of the bauh-yin abilities (incite riot, sneak attack)?

I think he should also be able to summon bauh-yin.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

I'd say switch the Int and Cha scores.

He should be able to summon a lot of bauh-yin. I like him having incite riot and sneak attack. Lots of sneak attack.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Agreed.  Give him all of it!


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

+15d6 sneak attack?

Maybe improved evasion and/or improved uncanny dodge?

Summon 5d4 bauh-yin with auto success?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Sounds about right.



> Black Leopard creates awe in all who view him that are less than 4th level (no saving throw). ...He may also cast spells like a 10th level shukenja.




Some sort of frightful presence, like a dragon?  Innate sorc spellcasting?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

We could modify this from the t'uen-rin:

Awe (Su): Once per day, a t’uen-rin may create an aura that can deeply affect mortals. It does this by rearing up on its hind legs, and letting out a commanding cry. Creatures that can see the t’uen-rin must succeed on a DC 28 Will save to avoid the effects. A creature that succeeds on its saving throw remains immune to that t’uen-rin's awe for 24 hours. This effect lasts for 2d6+6 rounds. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. 

A t’uen-rin can choose from the following effects each round as a free action while its awe power is in effect: 

Daze: Affected beings just stare at the t’uen-rin in fascination. Awed creatures may defend themselves normally, but can take no actions. If a creature attacked physically, it will recover in the following round. 

Fright: Affected beings become shaken and suffer a –2 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks. The merest glance or gesture from the t’uen-rin makes them frightened, and they flee as quickly as they can, although they can choose the path of their flight. 

Resolve: The t’uen-rin’s allies receive a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and checks, while the t’uen-rin’s foes receive a –4 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Hmm.  That's not exactly what the original black leopard has, but it seems appropriate.  Do we want to put a 4HD cap on the Daze effect?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

4 HD cap on dazing. We could make it so that its presence can still dazzle higher level characters.

What do we want to do for spellcasting? Because 10th level is going to be a drop in the bucket for a high CR unique like this... and shugenja is not a core class. I'd suggest if we want to do 10th level casting only, let it cast assassin spells. Otherwise, Sor/Wiz or cleric casting? Shugenjas are alt-clerics, after all.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm thinking maybe cleric casting, then, but probably bump to higher level (18-20?).  Another alternative is to give him a boatload of SLAs, like what we did with the sea titan.

Awe (Su): Once per day (?), the Black Leopard may create an aura that can deeply affect mortals. All creatures that can see the Black Leopard must succeed on a DC X Will save to avoid the effects. A creature that succeeds on its saving throw remains immune to that t’uen-rin's awe for 24 hours. This effect lasts for 2d6+6 rounds (?). This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

The Black Leopard can choose from the following effects each round as a free action while its awe power is in effect:

Fascinate: Affected beings of 4HD or less stare at the Black Leopard in fascination. Awed creatures may defend themselves normally, but can take no other actions. Creatures of more than 4HD are instead dazzled.

Fright: Affected beings become shaken and suffer a –2 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks. The merest glance or gesture from the Black Leopard makes them frightened, and they flee as quickly as they can, although they can choose the path of their flight.

Resolve: The Black Leopard’s allies receive a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and checks, while the Black Leopard’s foes receive a –4 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks.

How's that look?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Looks good.  Updated.

How about sorcerer spellcasting, but can draw from the cleric spell list and the Chaos and any other appropriate domains (like dragons)?

Caster level 18-20th does sound better.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Should we also put a 4HD cap on Fright?  Otherwise, it seems a lot more powerful than Fascinate.

I like the spellcasting idea.  Let's go for 20th level.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Limit the frightened part to 4 HD, and shakened for the rest?

Chaos, Strength, and Liberation (thankfully in the SRD) as the domains?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

Add Trickery to that domain list and I think we're good to go.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2008)

Heres a start on spells.  So far I just tried to pull out the unique or lower-cost spells from the domains.

Spells:  The Black Leopard casts spells as a 20th-level sorcerer and can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Liberation, Strength, and Trickery domains as arcane spells.

Sorcerer Spells Known (6/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7): 
0—9; 
1st—5; 
2nd—5; 
3rd—4; 
4th—chaos hammer, freedom of movement, spell immunity, 1 more;
5th—dispel law, righteous might, 2 more;
6th—3;
7th—refuge, word of chaos, 1 more;
8th—cloak of chaos, 2 more;
9th—3.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

0th --  resistance, detect magic, read magic, dancing lights, mage hand, prestidigitation, message, detect poison, ghost sound ?
...
9th -- freedom, crushing hand, time stop ?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2008)

I'd personally replace crushing hand with astral projection.

8th--cloak of chaos, maze, mass charm monster

7th--refuge, word of chaos, prismatic spray

6th--heal, mass suggestion, greater dispel magic

5th--dispel law, righteous might, telekinesis, true seeing


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Those look good, including astral projection.

4th - chaos hammer, freedom of movement, spell immunity, dimensional anchor?
3rd - remove curse, nondetection, heroism, rage ?


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Updated.

How about these to round out the list?

1st—enlarge person, entropic shield, expeditious retreat, protection from law, true strike; 
2nd—bull's strength, detect thoughts, gust of wind, invisibility, silence;


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Those seem good to me.

Filling in x's: 
Giant size: 25 minutes, 6th level spell? (Just guessing here...)
Summon bauh-yin: 8th level spell?
speaks Common, Celestial, Abyssal.
11 feet tall and 1300 lb?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 21, 2008)

Giant size is an 8th level spell for Wu-jen.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2008)

Updated.

Natural armor?

Fly manueverability?

Awe (Su): Once per day (?), the Black Leopard may create an aura that can deeply affect mortals. All creatures that can see the Black Leopard must succeed on a DC X Will save to avoid the effects. A creature that succeeds on its saving throw remains immune to that t’uen-rin's awe for 24 hours. This effect lasts for 2d6+6 rounds (?). This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Give him telepathy like bauh-yin?


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2008)

Balors have +19 natural, Pit Fiends have +23, with lower HD, so maybe +27 or even up to +30?  

Oh, I missed out on his flight.  Average?

For awe, let's do 3/day for 2d6+Cha rounds.  And let's switch the t'uen-rin on the 3rd line for Black Leopard.

Yes to telepathy.  Increased range?


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2008)

Since he doesn't have wings, I'm assuming the flight is magical, so how about good manueverability?

Telepathy 250 feet?

Skills: 15 at 28 ranks
The bauh-yin have Balance +7, Bluff +10, Climb +13, Diplomacy +4, Disguise +2* (+4 acting), Gather Information +4, Hide +6, Intimidate +12, Jump +15, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (local) +7, Move Silently +6, Tumble +12

Also, Bauh-yin have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, and Move Silently checks.   We should give him at least the same, maybe doubling the bonus?

Feats: 9 (2 can be epic)
We gave the bauh-yin Ability Focus (incite riot), Improved Initiative

Organization: Solitary, leap (Bauhei plus x bauh-yin), or insurrection (Bauhei plus x bauh-yin)


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Good and 250 ft work for me.

Skills: max ranks in all those plus Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (the planes)?  I agree with doubling the racial bonuses.

Imp Init, Silent Spell, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Epic Dodge, Superior Initiative?  I'd love to get him Sneak Attack of Opportunity, but we'd need to add the Opportunist feature from the Rogue.  I'm also not tied to the Whirlwind Attack chain, but it seems reasonable for him.  Other thoughts?  I didn't think he probably needed Ability Focus.

For organization, we said 2-6 was an insurrection of bauh-yin.  So maybe a leap should be Bauhei plus 2-4 bauh-yin and an insurrection should be plus 4-12 and assorted rioters?


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Updated.

Let's see if we get any other feedback on the feats.



> Black Leopard has the following powers; shape change (to any other cat or catlike creature, at will);




We never decided on Alternate Form or Change Shape.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2008)

We gave the bauh-yin Change Shape, so we should stick with that, I guess.  Here's what we had for them:



> Change Shape (Su): A bauh-yin can assume the shape of any feline creature of Diminutive to Large size. In feline form, the bauh-yin loses its natural attacks but retains its special abilities. A bauh-yin can remain in its feline form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a bauh-yin reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.




Do we want to change the size range at all?


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2008)

Assuming he retains his giant size ability in feline form, those size ranges should suffice, still allowing him to be a really ginormous cat!


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2008)

He sure does.  Given that a house cat is a serious threat to a low level NPC, a Colossal one would be downright frightening!


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 29, 2008)

freyar said:


> He sure does.  Given that a house cat is a serious threat to a low level NPC, a Colossal one would be downright frightening!




Hee.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

Updated.

Any other thoughts on this?



freyar said:


> Imp Init, Silent Spell, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Epic Dodge, Superior Initiative?  I'd love to get him Sneak Attack of Opportunity, but we'd need to add the Opportunist feature from the Rogue.  I'm also not tied to the Whirlwind Attack chain, but it seems reasonable for him.  Other thoughts?  I didn't think he probably needed Ability Focus.




I'm fine with adding opportunist if others agree.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Well, I'd like to do that.   Swap in Sneak Attack of Opportunity for Epic Dodge, maybe?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 30, 2008)

I say swap Sneak Attack of Opportunity for Superior Initiative. Epic Dodge is, well, epic. Superior Initiative is just another +4 bonus.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

So... 

Combat Expertise, Dodge, Epic Dodge, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Silent Spell, Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack?


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Sounds fine to me.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

Updated.

CR 21?  He's about on par with Kezef the Chaos Hound and the FC versions of Kostchtchie and Fraz-Urb'luu. I could maybe see going to 22 due to full spellcasting that the others lack.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Hmm, about the same as an avatar of a demon lord?  Reasonable enough.  It's really your call, I guess.  Maybe CR 22.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2008)

CR 22 for the full spellcasting.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

22 it is.

Updated.   Finished?


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

He looks good.


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## Big Mac (Jul 20, 2008)

*Bump*

This thread was sliding down the second page.

Is this the last epic monster?


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

Nope, not the last by a longshot.

It's OK for some of these to slide off the first page.  I try not to have more than 10 conversion threads going at a time, as I find that it gets confusing to keep up with and folks tend to only respond to a few at a time.  So this thread will be revisited once some of the others get some attention (like the Planescape thread that was just "reactivated").


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

*Grey Dragon*
(Draco Nox Diabolus)
Frequency: Very rare
# App: 1
AC: -5 (-2)
Move: 15"/24"
Hit Dice: 12 (96 hit points)
% in Lair: 100%
Treasure Type: H, S, T, U
# Att: 5
Dmg/Att: 1-8/1-8/1-4/1-4/5-40
Special Attacks: See Below
Special Defenses: See Below
Magic Resistance: Standard
Intelligence: Low
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Size: L (48' long)
Psionics: Nil
Chance of Speaking: 25%
Chance of Magic Use: 75%
Chance of Sleeping: 10%

The grey dragon, Rahab, is hated by dragons as much as he is hated by all other creatures.  The only living things around him are the men, dwarves, and goblins he has enslaved.  He lives deep in a cavern in a remote mountain range and never ventures forth from it.

The grey dragon attacks with the usual claw/claw/bite routine but gets two additional swings with his claws because of his tremendous speed.  The latter two claw attacks are at -1 "to hit" and do only 1-4 points of damage.  Rahab's breath weapon is a gas cloud that affects all victims with its boundaries (2" + 2" + 3") as a super-powerful charm spell.  Affected characters or creatures  who fail their saving throw vs. breath weapon will never again attack Rahab or do him harm for as long as they live, or until the effect of the breath weapon is negated by a remove curse spell.

Those who enter the dragon's cavern will find nothing but a large mound of blackness, for Rahab is hidden by a form of continual darkness.  The spell is not affected by anything save continual light, which will act as a light spell.  In this darkness, Rahab has an armor class of -5.  If the darkness is temporarly alleviated by the application of continual light, its armor class worsens to -2.

If adversaries come close enough to the dragon, or if Rahab advances toward his foes, the grey dragon may be able to envelop his opponents in this blackness, effectively blinding them.  If he manages to do this Rahab receives a +5 bonus "to hit" on each character so affected.  The dragon's own vision is sufficient to see under the darkness.  The edge of the area of darkness is approximately three feet away from the dragon and surrounds him totally.  

The dragon can cast two magic-user spells per day, but can use no spell of higher than third level.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #62 (1982).


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Although not apparently epic, note that by the "divide by 4.5" rule, he'd have 21 Hit Dice.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Shade said:


> Although not apparently epic, note that by the "divide by 4.5" rule, he'd have 21 Hit Dice.



He reads like he should be somewhat epic, but then his powers don't seem so great.  Let's give him a little boost, shall we?

First off, what's the story on this guy?  Some sort of mutated true dragon or something else?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

freyar said:


> First off, what's the story on this guy?  Some sort of mutated true dragon or something else?




He... doesn't have one. The text Shade gives is all of it. We should make one up!


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

That's kind of sad.  I expect more from Dragon magazine, really. 

The charming breath is reminiscent of metallic dragons, kind of, while the darkness (and color) fits a black dragon.  Maybe he's a unique half-black/half-brass or something.  Some failed experiment of Tiamat, perhaps?  He's a bit large for 21 HD, but that's ok...


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Maybe a metallic dragon that turned to evil and darkness? Or a radiant dragon corrupted by demons?

We could also use all of the above, leaving the origins as rumors.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

I like the rumor idea.  And since he could really use a little jazzing up, we can use them as inspirations for abilities.  Any of these would also work to explain why he's hated by other dragons.

So, then, Gargantuan or Colossal?  He seems borderline, depending on how chunky he is.  I guess C.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

I like the metallic/chromatic hybrid idea.

And this was pretty early Dragon Magazine. Besides which, most of the flavor and background went into the faerie dragon, introduced the same issue. There's a reason those keep advancing editions while this one has gone untouched.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like the metallic/chromatic hybrid idea.
> 
> And this was pretty early Dragon Magazine. Besides which, most of the flavor and background went into the faerie dragon, introduced the same issue. There's a reason those keep advancing editions while this one has gone untouched.



Yeah, it's easy to see.

Ok, so far we have a haste kind of effect (extra claw attacks), a strong darkness aura, a charming breath weapon, and relatively weak magic use.  Should we add some of the other usual dragon stuff, like tail slap & sweep, wing buffets, etc, just for starters?


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

freyar said:


> Yeah, it's easy to see.
> 
> Ok, so far we have a haste kind of effect (extra claw attacks), a strong darkness aura, a charming breath weapon, and relatively weak magic use.  Should we add some of the other usual dragon stuff, like tail slap & sweep, wing buffets, etc, just for starters?




Yeah, I think so.

Most Colossal dragons have way more than 20 HD.  Do we want to boost his, or drop him to Gargantuan?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Hard choice.  I think that the way he's presented, he makes more sense at G with 21HD, though C with more HD would probably be fun.  I guess Gargantuan.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

In that case, he probably compares favorably with a wyrm white dragon in terms of size and relative power level.  It has...

Str 35, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 16 

Rahab's Int is listed as Low (thus, 5-7).  Do we want to keep him that unintelligent, or boost him like the example above?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Hmm, how smart (or dumb) were 1e white dragons?  I'd probably be in favor of boosting his Int to keep him at least in line with a white.  Honestly, he's unique, so I'd like him to at least be better than a white dragon at 21HD!


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Average (low).

Note that I compared him to a wyrm white dragon, since that is the lowest HD Gargantuan dragon I could find and is close to what I'd imagine is the target CR (19-20).   However, even that "lowly" dragon has 33 HD.  So we might really want to consider boosting his HD.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Yeah, I've noticed that Huge and larger earlier edition monsters often don't have enough HD.  Let's go with 35, maybe.  That's an increase of 2/3 just to get him reasonable!  I think we should seriously consider improving his spellcasting or else giving him some SLAs.  If it's too much of a stretch, I guess we could just shrink him to Huge and keep his abilities as they are.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Sounds good.  I think some cool darkness and enchantment SLAs would be preferable to weak spellcasting.

I'll Homebrew him with the suggested HD and ability scores above.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Homebrewed.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

> Those who enter the dragon's cavern will find nothing but a large mound of blackness, for Rahab is hidden by a form of continual darkness. The spell is not affected by anything save continual light, which will act as a light spell. In this darkness, Rahab has an armor class of -5. If the darkness is temporarly alleviated by the application of continual light, its armor class worsens to -2.




We might be able to borrow/modify this...

Aura of Darkness (Ex): A live nogra is continually surrounded by a darkness effect (as the deeper darkness spell). Any light effect or similar effect brought into the area of the nogra is suppressed until brought outside of the aura of darkness. Once brought outside the aura of darkness, the light effect resumes. While this darkness will suppress a daylight spell, a daylight spell does not affect the nogra’s aura. When a nogra dies, the aura of darkness fades away in 1d3 rounds.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

I like that!  The original text gives a pretty short radius (3 ft, I think), but I think it would be more appropriate to make it larger, like 30 ft at least.  Thoughts?  

Breath weapon (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, Rahab can breath a 60 ft cone of magic gas.  Any creature in the cone that fails a DC X Reflex save is instantaneously charmed by Rahab (as the charm monster spell).  In addition, that creature can never willingly harm Rahab in any way.  This condition can only be removed by break enchantment or similar magic if the caster succeeds at a DC X caster level check.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2008)

Charmed monsters wouldn't hurt their charmer regardless--I think that's redundant. 

We could give it a kicker on the darkness aura--unholy aura, perhaps?--that gets removed if the darkness is dispelled with light. If daylight can't dispel it, perhaps sunbeam/sunburst?


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2008)

Yeah, I'd think it would be good to be able to suppress the darkness somehow.  Sunburst seems reasonable -- sunbeam seems too focused.

I don't mind dropping that line from the breath weapon.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> We could give it a kicker on the darkness aura--unholy aura, perhaps?--that gets removed if the darkness is dispelled with light. If daylight can't dispel it, perhaps sunbeam/sunburst?




That sounds good.  We might also borrow from the damning darkness spell...



			
				Lords of Madness said:
			
		

> This spell is similar to darkness, except that those within the area of darkness also take unholy damage. Creatures of good alignment take 2d6 points of damage per round in the darkness, and creatures of neither good nor evil take 1d6 points of damage. As with the darkness spell, the area of darkness is a 20-foot radius, and the object that serves as the spell's target can be shrouded to block the darkness (and thus the damaging effect).
> 
> Damning darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower level.
> 
> Spell resistance applies to the damage dealt by this spell but not to the darkness area.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2008)

That seems like a perfect addition to the aura.  So -- what spells should suppress the darkness?  Maybe spells with the light descriptor of level greater than or equal to 5th?  Should a CL check be involved?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 23, 2008)

Damage in the darkness might work, but I was thinking another defense, like a profane bonus to AC for Rahab.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Damage in the darkness might work, but I was thinking another defense, like a profane bonus to AC for Rahab.



Presumably he already gets concealment, but we could go with total concealment if not an AC bonus...


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Attempting to mesh that all together...

Aura of Profane Darkness (Ex): Rahab is continually surrounded by a darkness effect (as the deeper darkness spell) to a radius of 30 feet. 

Nonevil creatures within the aura also take unholy damage. Creatures of good alignment take 2d6 points of damage per round in the darkness, and creatures of neither good nor evil take 1d6 points of damage. 

While the aura is active, Rahab receives a +4 profane bonus to Armor Class and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws.  

Any light effect or similar effect brought into the area of the profane darkness is suppressed until brought outside of the aura of darkness. Once brought outside the aura of darkness, the light effect resumes. While this darkness will suppress a daylight spell, a daylight spell does not affect Rahab's aura. A sunburst effect suppresses the aura for x rounds.  When Rahab dies, the aura of profane darkness fades away in 1d3 rounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 24, 2008)

That looks good!


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

Updated.

Shall we select some SLAs now?


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

Nice!

Just throwing out some SLA ideas (partly chosen from what looks compatible among chromatic dragon and demon SLAs): suggestion or dominate person/monster, power word stun, chaos hammer,  maybe greater dispel magic, shades or greater shadow conjuration, greater shadow evocation.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 26, 2008)

Suggestion, greater dispel magic, the shadow spells sound like a great idea. I also like power word stun.


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

How's this?

At will--greater dispel magic, 
3/day--greater shadow conjuration, greater shadow evocation, suggestion 
1/day--power word stun, shades


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Looks good!  Now he's getting somewhere!

He originally had just a little bit of spellcasting.  Should we give him some weak sorcerer spellcasting, maybe CL12 (between wyrm and great wyrm white dragons)?  Or leave it off since he has the SLAs?  IIRC, the radiant dragon doesn't get casting, right?


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

freyar said:


> He originally had just a little bit of spellcasting.  Should we give him some weak sorcerer spellcasting, maybe CL12 (between wyrm and great wyrm white dragons)?  Or leave it off since he has the SLAs?  IIRC, the radiant dragon doesn't get casting, right?




Right...none of the planar dragons do.

I think I'd rather stick with SLAs than add spellcasting.   The shadow spells you selected allow him to emulate other spells, which still gives him some semblance of the variety of spontaneous spellcasting.

Any other opinions?


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

That's fine with me, but maybe we could increase the frequency of a couple of the SLAs (or add the regular shadow conjuration/evocation spells at 5/day or something).


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

freyar said:


> That's fine with me, but maybe we could increase the frequency of a couple of the SLAs (or add the regular shadow conjuration/evocation spells at 5/day or something).




I like that second idea!


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 27, 2008)

I, too, support it.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2008)

Shall we give him the usual Colossal true dragon abilities, such as crush, tail sweep, frightful presence, etc.?

How about the see in darkness ability of baatezu?


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## freyar (Sep 30, 2008)

Absolutely yes to both!


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2008)

Updated.

Flight maneuverability?

Natural armor bonus?

Skills: 8 at 38 ranks
"Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)"

Feats: 12 (5 can be epic)

Breath Weapon (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, Rahab can breath a 60-foot cone of magic gas. Any creature in the cone that fails a DC 34 Reflex save is instantaneously charmed by Rahab (as the charm monster spell). This condition can only be removed by break enchantment or similar magic if the caster succeeds at a *DC X caster level check*. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 1, 2008)

Caster level check DC... 30? It'd be easier to pin down once we know what its CR is.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Caster level check DC... 30? It'd be easier to pin down once we know what its CR is.



How about CR +10 for the DC?

Max Listen, Search, Spot, Concentration.  Probably also max Knowledge (the planes) and/or Knowledge (religion) to play up the fiend/Tiamat link?  I like Intimidate for him, along with UMD.  So that could be it if we max out all of them.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

freyar said:


> How about CR +10 for the DC?




I like it!



freyar said:


> Max Listen, Search, Spot, Concentration.  Probably also max Knowledge (the planes) and/or Knowledge (religion) to play up the fiend/Tiamat link?  I like Intimidate for him, along with UMD.  So that could be it if we max out all of them.




Let's swap Know (religion) with Spellcraft, but otherwise, looks good.

Flight maneuverability of poor?

+35 natural armor bonus?

Feats: 12 (5 can be epic)
Blind-Fight, Cleave, Dire Charge, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater dispel magic), Snatch, Wingover?

Environment: Underground?

Treasure:  Triple standard?


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Those skills sound fine!  Environment and treasure also look right.

A shame there aren't more good epic feats for Rahab.  We could swap Blind-fight (since he's never really blind) and maybe Hover out for Combat Reflexes (useless, I guess) and Spellcasting Harrier.  Nah, I guess I don't like that.  Or we could swap around things to get Overwhelming Crit and maybe Devastating Crit.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 1, 2008)

I agree that Blindfight is completely useless for Rahab. The Overwhelming/Devastating Critical path is somewhat appealing, as would be giving him Fast Healing a time or two.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

We could just give him Fast Healing as an SQ rather than taking of feat slots if you want...

An alternate list of suggested feats, then:
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (bite), Imp Crit (bite), Overwhelming Crit (bite), Devastating Crit (bite), Imp Init, Dire Charge, Snatch, Wingover, Fly-By Attack
Or could drop Devastating Crit in favor of Quicken SLA.  This way, he at least gets 3 epic feats.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

I think Hover is more important than Flyby Attack, and Multiattack over Wingover, so let's blend the two and go with...

Cleave, Devastating Critical (bite), Dire Charge, Great Cleave, Hover, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (bite)

Look OK?


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Yeah, I actually meant to include Multiattack and got carried away with flight.  I'm ambivalent on Wingover vs Hover, so this is good!


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

Updated (with flavor).



> The grey dragon attacks with the usual claw/claw/bite routine but gets two additional swings with his claws because of his tremendous speed.   The latter two claw attacks are at -1 "to hit" and do only 1-4 points of damage.




We still need to address that.  How about...

Alacritous Claws (Su):  When making a full attack, Rahab may make two additional claw attacks with a -2 penalty.


While working on the flavor text and looking at the image in the original article, I kept thinking "black panther".  Maybe we should give him pounce, and ditch the Dire Charge feat in favor of one of the others we dropped earlier?

I think we should also switch some ranks into Move Silently and give him a racial bonus.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2008)

Ranks in Move Silently I agree to. And pounce is sounding pretty tempting. Could Rahab use alacritous claws and a pounce in the same turn? That might be a bit much.


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

Yes to Move Silently, then.  Could swap out Intimidate, or else take half from Intimidate and half from UMD.

Pounce with alacritous claws wouldn't be much worse than pounce with rake, though most true dragons don't get pounce for this reason, I guess.  

What feat could we swap back in for Dire Charge?  Anything epic that might work?


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

How about Demiurge's suggestion of Fast Healing?


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2008)

Either that or give him Fast Healing as an SQ and whatever the epic initiative feat is.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Let's just go with the feat since he's already stacked with abilities.

CR 21-22?  He seems somewhere between great wyrm white and black dragons.

The grey dragon is 48 feet long weighs x tons.  

Rahab speaks Draconic and X.


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2008)

CR 22 is probably fine.
Uh, 50 tons?  Do we have a dragon weight chart somewhere?
Abyssal, Undercommon?


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

freyar said:


> Uh, 50 tons?  Do we have a dragon weight chart somewhere?




Looking through various dragons, it seems most don't list a weight.  

The tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, and it weighs about 130 tons.  Rahab is probably only half its size, so your suggested weight should work.

Updated.

All done?


----------



## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

He looks done!


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

This guy is linked to the blood warriors/riders currently being converted in the FR thread...

*Kazgaroth*
Minion of Bhaal
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any (Moonshaes)
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 16 (120 hp)
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d12(×2)/3d10/ld8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 60%
SIZE: G (18. tall, 50. long)
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 19,000

In its true form, Kazgaroth resembles a huge tyrannosaur with forelimbs that, while still short, match the rest of its body and allow the Beast to run on all fours if it wishes. When traveling in this manner, consider Kazgaroth’s movement rate to be 18.

The Beast possesses a broad, powerful, scaly body and tail with a maw that drips mildly acidic saliva (the acid is taken into account in the bite’s damage). Its massive hindlegs end in heavy, clawed feet. In this form (and in other forms if the Beast loses self-control), Kazgaroth’s beady eyes glow a fierce red.

Combat: While the Beast prefers to engage its foes through trickery, deceit, and the use of mortal pawns, Kazgaroth revels in the bloodlust of combat when it arises. In this form, the Beast attacks with its two clawed forelimbs and its vicious bite. Further, the Beast uses its tail to attack anyone it finds itself in melee with; damage from the tailslap is 1d8. Any being struck by the tail must make a Dexterity check with a -5 penalty or be knocked off his feet. The prone figure can regain his footing in the following or subsequent rounds, but can take no other actions during that round.

Kazgaroth can be struck in combat only by magical weapons of +2 enchantment or better. The Beast’s Magic Resistance applies to all wizard and priest spells, except those cast by neutral clerics whose powers concern maintaining the balance of nature. For example, spells cast by druids or priests of Chauntea would affect Kazgaroth normally.

The Beast can shapechange at will. Kazgaroth has been known to assume forms such as a bull, a snake, and a gargoylelike creature. Kazgaroth also can assume the form of specific, well-known individuals, such as it did with the Northmen king Thelgaar Ironhand, after the Beast consumes the original being. Kazgaroth cannot assume the form of any creature larger than itself-but then, it really doesn’t need to.

Kazgaroth also possesses several special abilities, the first of which is the ability to constantly detect magic and detect invisibility within 100 yards of itself, limited by vision. The second ability is to cause lycanthropy with its bite. The breed of lycanthrope matches the ethical element of the victim’s alignment (lawful, neutral, or chaotic), but is always evil. Therefore, lawful (good, neutral, or evil) victims could become wererats, neutral (good, true neutral, or evil) might become werebats, and chaotic (good, neutral, or evil) individuals may become werewolves (or werefoxes if the victim is female and has elf blood). Kazgaroth can cast a permanent charm on one victim within 10’ of itself. A side effect of this charm is that once per week, the charmed being must successfully save vs. spell or permanently lose a point of Charisma (to a minimum score of 3), due to the effects of the Beast’s vile magic on the being. Once per week, the Beast also can cast a death spell.

Kazgaroth’s final offensive power is perhaps its most insidious. A corrupted form of the mass charm spell, this ability transforms a troop (up to 500 persons) of living beings into the undead minions of Bhaal known as the Blood Warriors. See their entry in this section for more details on their most recent incarnation, the Blood Riders.

Kazgaroth is an integral component of the Moonshae Isles (see Ecology below) and if slain, returns in 3d6 years. Only the now-lost sword of Cymrych Hugh could permanently kill the Beast.

Habitat/Society: Kazgaroth is unique to the Moonshae Isles. With his shapechange ability, the Beast can assume forms that allow him to travel anywhere in the Isles quickly and unobtrusively.

Kazgaroth is venerated by the firbolg giants of the Isles. These variants of traditional firbolgs use the normal statistics for their race, but they are chaotic neutral in alignment and are misshapen and unrelentingly ugly. Under the Beast’s leadership, these powerful creatures did much evil to the good Ffolk of the Moonshae Isles (see History below).

Ecology: As a supernatural creature, Kazgaroth draws power from the death, decay, and corruption it causes. In its most recent appearance, this power was mainly derived from a Bhaal-corrupted Moonwell, one of the sites sacred to the Earthmother and her druids. It is from this same Darkwell that Bhaal’s avatar later entered the Realms, only to be defeated by Tristan Kendrick, Newt the faerie dragon, and the other heroes of the Moonshae Isles. Beyond this link to the mortal world of the Realms, the Beast plays no role in the life of the Moonshaes beyond being a tool with which to upset the Balance of the Earthmother’s domain.

History: The origin of Kazgaroth the Beast lurks in the long-lost past of the Moonshaes, nearly as distant as that of the Earthmother herself. Over the centuries, Kazgaroth has arisen many times to upset the Balance and wreak havoc across the Isles.  In 1345 DR, the Beast made his last recorded appearance.  Born again into the Realms from the Bhaal-corrupted Moonwell (now called the Darkwell), Kazgaroth set his plans into motion. Calling upon the firbolgs to begin depredations of their own, Kazgaroth became wise in the ways of the Ffolk, using his shape-shifting ability to pass unnoticed amongst them.

Making his way to Myrloch Vale, the Beast corrupted the druid Trahern of Oakvale, making the hapless mortal a minion of Bhaal. Through the druid, Kazgaroth was able to learn the druids’ plan to counteract the Beast’s own plans to destroy the Balance.

The Beast first killed and took the form of a woman named Meredith, then used this attractive shape to seduce and infect the guardsman Erian with lycanthropy. The werewolf that Erian would now become also would serve Kazgaroth and Bhaal.  Next, the Beast viciously killed and began impersonating Thelgaar Ironhand, the mightiest king of the Northmen that lived on the Isles. Now in the role of this leader, Kazgaroth revoked Ironhand’s previous peace-loving policies and built the assembled Northmen into a conquering army bent on ravaging the island of Gywnneth, home of the Kendrick line of kings. Kazgaroth also used its corrupting mass charm ability to transform the Northmen’s only cavalry unit, the Blood Riders, into his pawns. Meanwhile, the Beast’s firbolgs fed tons of coal into the Darkwell, further polluting it. The giants also captured Kamerynn, one of the Earthmother’s Children.

Kazgaroth, as Ironhand, sailed forth with its Northman army in specially modified longships. Each vessel now carried a heavy, piercing ram on its bow, for the Beast knew another of the Earthmother’s Children, the Leviathan, would sense its presence and seek to end the blight Kazgaroth’s presence brought. Indeed, the great aquatic mammal sunk a full third of Kazgaroth’s duped Northmen fleet, but eventually succumbed to the rams and a huge harpoon hurled by Ironhand/the Beast itself.

Power flowed into Kazgaroth from the destruction of the Leviathan, and the Beast now fought to control the human form which was barely capable of holding such potency. Kazgaroth/Ironhand sailed on while part of the Northman fleet sailed a different route, landing on Gwynneth and looting and pillaging, driving a great mass of refugees before them. Part of the Beast’s plan was for a portion of the Northman army to use mountain passes (guided by Trahern) to get ahead of the refugees and slaughter them all between the two Northman groups.

Meanwhile, Erian the werewolf fought and defeated the leader of the Earthmother’s Pack, a gathering of all the wolves of the Isles. Erian then used this collective Child of the Earthmother against her.  Soon, Kazgaroth landed his fleet at Corwell, laying siege to both the town and Caer Corwell that overlooked it.

Kazgaroth could sense the presence of the heroes within the Caer, especially Robyn, the young woman who was discovering her considerable druidic powers. The Beast attacked, but the young druid, a cleric named Friar Nolan, and Prince Tristan Kendrick forced Kazgaroth to flee. Tristan Kendrick’s moorhound, Canthus, blessed by the Earthmother, managed to defeat and kill Erian and he led the Pack on a long trek to Corwell.

Now, the Northmen, the firbolgs, the Blood Riders, and Kazgaroth worked to bring Corwell to its knees. The heroes of the Moonshaes, however, stood firm. The heroes turned back the firbolgs at the Caer’s gatehouse and, enraged at the sight, Kazgaroth’s control snapped. Resuming his true form, the Beast slew the fleeing giant-kin with a blast of magic, then managed to regain Thelgaar Ironhand’s form. As the Pack led by Canthus fiercely attacked the Northmen army, Tristan Kendrick and Kazgaroth/Ironhand met in battle. The Beast could not stand the touch of the sword of Cymrych Hugh and fled the field while one of the Blood Riders made off with the young druid, Robyn, whom he intended to sacrifice to his dread lord, Bhaal.

The heroes pursued the Blood Riders and managed to prevent the sacrifice, defeating them in the process. Reunited, the heroes tracked the Beast back to the Darkwell where they engaged him in battle. Strengthened by the Darkwell, Kazgaroth killed most of the heroes before Tristan, wielding the sword of Cymrych Hugh, destroyed the Beast.

The Earthmother returned all but one of her heroes to life after the battle, but the Beast too lived on, after a fashion. The heart of Kazgaroth, a black, stonelike object of potent magical powers was recovered by Trahern and eventually found its way into the hands of HOBARTH, a powerful cleric of Bhaal.

Originally appeared in Villains’ Lorebook (1998).


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Magical beast or native outsider?

The "divide by 4.5" rule yields 26 Hit Dice.

Upsizing a T-Rex's physical ability scores to Gargantuan yields...

Str 36, Dex 12, Con 25

Does that look appropriate?

Int is High (13-14).  Cha should be at least that good, but probably higher.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

Native outsider. And I agree that Cha should be higher. I might also want to raise his Dex a bit.


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

Agreed.  Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 22?  Dex at 18?


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> In its true form, Kazgaroth resembles a huge tyrannosaur with forelimbs that, while still short, match the rest of its body and allow the Beast to run on all fours if it wishes. When traveling in this manner, consider Kazgaroth’s movement rate to be 18.




Is a special ability needed, or is just a note on the speed line sufficient?



> The Beast possesses a broad, powerful, scaly body and tail with a maw that drips mildly acidic saliva (the acid is taken into account in the bite’s damage).




Bite damage is currently at 3d10.  A Gargantuan T-Rex would do 4d6.  Change to 4d6 and add 1d6 acid?

Retain T-Rex abilities such as improved grab, swallow whole, and scent?



> Further, the Beast uses its tail to attack anyone it finds itself in melee with; damage from the tailslap is 1d8. Any being struck by the tail must make a Dexterity check with a -5 penalty or be knocked off his feet. The prone figure can regain his footing in the following or subsequent rounds, but can take no other actions during that round.




The trip ability of wolves?



> Kazgaroth can be struck in combat only by magical weapons of +2 enchantment or better.




Change to DR x/epic?



> The Beast’s Magic Resistance applies to all wizard and priest spells, except those cast by neutral clerics whose powers concern maintaining the balance of nature. For example, spells cast by druids or priests of Chauntea would affect Kazgaroth normally.




Vulnerabilty to druidic magic and spells in the Animal and Plant domains?  Extend to Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Weather domains as well?



> The Beast can shapechange at will. Kazgaroth has been known to assume forms such as a bull, a snake, and a gargoylelike creature. Kazgaroth also can assume the form of specific, well-known individuals, such as it did with the Northmen king Thelgaar Ironhand, after the Beast consumes the original being. Kazgaroth cannot assume the form of any creature larger than itself-but then, it really doesn’t need to.




It sounds like a specialized shapechange ability.



> Kazgaroth also possesses several special abilities, the first of which is the ability to constantly detect magic and detect invisibility within 100 yards of itself, limited by vision.




Supernatural detect magic and detect invisibility to 300 feet, always active?



> The second ability is to cause lycanthropy with its bite. The breed of lycanthrope matches the ethical element of the victim’s alignment (lawful, neutral, or chaotic), but is always evil. Therefore, lawful (good, neutral, or evil) victims could become wererats, neutral (good, true neutral, or evil) might become werebats, and chaotic (good, neutral, or evil) individuals may become werewolves (or werefoxes if the victim is female and has elf blood).




Curse of lycanthropy, Kazgaroth's choice of template?



> Kazgaroth can cast a permanent charm on one victim within 10’ of itself. A side effect of this charm is that once per week, the charmed being must successfully save vs. spell or permanently lose a point of Charisma (to a minimum score of 3), due to the effects of the Beast’s vile magic on the being. Once per week, the Beast also can cast a death spell.




Unique charm ability with chance of Cha drain?  Replace death spell with slay living, destruction, or finger of death?



> Kazgaroth’s final offensive power is perhaps its most insidious. A corrupted form of the mass charm spell, this ability transforms a troop (up to 500 persons) of living beings into the undead minions of Bhaal known as the Blood Warriors. See their entry in this section for more details on their most recent incarnation, the Blood Riders.




Unique ability.



> Kazgaroth is an integral component of the Moonshae Isles (see Ecology below) and if slain, returns in 3d6 years. Only the now-lost sword of Cymrych Hugh could permanently kill the Beast.




Something like ghost's rejuvenation?


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 24, 2008)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




None of the above.  Death spell became circle of death in 3e.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> None of the above.  Death spell became circle of death in 3e.




Good catch!


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

Most of what you suggest sounds good. I'd give it an ability where it's faster on all fours, but can't make claw attacks that round--caterwauls have it, and I know there's other monsters that do, too.

I think we should change circle of death to something more formidable--it's going to be useless against the parties that will actually fight this thing.

I'm not sure how to handle the "no SR versus druids" thing. Your suggestion doesn't sit well with me. How about "druids and clerics of deities with the Animal or Plant domain are always considered to have overcome Kazgaroth's spell resistance"?

I'd like to stick to 3d10 damage plus 1d6 acid, rather than downgrade to 4d6.

We've done a tripping tail sweep before, haven't we? The megalaina, right?


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 25, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think we should change circle of death to something more formidable--it's going to be useless against the parties that will actually fight this thing.




Wail of the banshee?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 25, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Wail of the banshee?




I like! Might as well go whole-hog for it being epic.


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2008)

We have done the tripping tail sweep, and I was thinking the same thing.

I also agree with 3d10 damage on the bite.  And wail of the banshee.

Thinking about the druid thing...


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

Updated.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Let's tackle this ability next...



> The Beast can shapechange at will. Kazgaroth has been known to assume forms such as a bull, a snake, and a gargoylelike creature. Kazgaroth also can assume the form of specific, well-known individuals, such as it did with the Northmen king Thelgaar Ironhand, after the Beast consumes the original being. Kazgaroth cannot assume the form of any creature larger than itself-but then, it really doesn’t need to.




We tackled another unique creature with specialized shapechanging awhile back.  I'll see if I can find it.


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2008)

No luck finding it, I guess?

Why don't we just go with Change Shape into animals, gargoyles, and any individual creatures it has eaten?


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2008)

Hmmm...I could've sworn we'd done more variations...

Change Shape (Su): A manggus can assume the shape of any Medium, Large, or Huge creature. The creature’s hit dice cannot exceed twice the manggus’ hit dice. The new form must be a creature that the manggus has personally seen. In a different form, the manggus loses its natural attacks, but gains all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the new form. A manggus can remain in a form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a manggus reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form. If the manggus takes fire damage from any source, it is immediately forced back into its natural form.


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## freyar (Nov 4, 2008)

What about this, then?

Change Shape (Su): Kazgaroth can assume the shape of any creature up to Gargantuan size. The creature’s hit dice cannot exceed twice Kazgaroth's hit dice. This new form is usually that of a bull, snake, or gargoyle. In addition, Kazgaroth can assume the exact form of any specific creature he has eaten; it is necssary to use magic to detect his ruse.  In a different form, Kazgaroth loses its natural attacks, but gains all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the new form. Kazgaroth can remain in a form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but Kazgaroth reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2008)

Let's drop the "necessary to use magic" bit and give it a +10 bonus on all Disguise checks made to impersonate a specific individual. Since it's eaten the person it's disguised against and is a near-perfect copy, we can even say that it doesn't take any penalties to the Disguise check against people familiar with the victim.


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## freyar (Nov 4, 2008)

Sounds good to me.

Change Shape (Su): Kazgaroth can assume the shape of any creature up to Gargantuan size. The creature’s hit dice cannot exceed twice Kazgaroth's hit dice. This new form is usually that of a bull, snake, or gargoyle. In addition, Kazgaroth can assume the exact form of any specific creature he has eaten; he gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks to appear as that creature, and Kazgaroth takes no penalties on the Disguise check against characters familiar with the creature he emulates. In a different form, Kazgaroth loses its natural attacks, but gains all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the new form. Kazgaroth can remain in a form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but Kazgaroth reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

Updated.

Next ability...



> Kazgaroth can cast a permanent charm on one victim within 10’ of itself. A side effect of this charm is that once per week, the charmed being must successfully save vs. spell or permanently lose a point of Charisma (to a minimum score of 3), due to the effects of the Beast’s vile magic on the being.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 9, 2008)

10 feet seems really short range, especially for something so huge. 

Should we make this a Su or Sp ability?


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2008)

Let's say 30 ft or maybe 60 ft.  Probably Sp, as charm monster affected by permanency (though that's not normally allowed).


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Let's go Su to make the save DC respectable.   Something like this?

Permanent Charm (Su):  At will (?), Kazgaroth may attempt to place a powerful charm upon a creature.  This functions as charm monster (CL xth, Will DC x), except the range is 60 feet and the effect is permanent.   Additionally, once per week a victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or suffer 1 point of Charisma drain.   The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

It says "on one victim", so I think that, if we give it to him at will, the effect is broken whenever he charms someone else. Sort of like how the warlock's charm effect works.


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2008)

I think I'd go with 3/day, but At Will works, too.

Is the corrupting charm next?


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> It says "on one victim", so I think that, if we give it to him at will, the effect is broken whenever he charms someone else. Sort of like how the warlock's charm effect works.



I like that interpretation.  Let's make it explicit.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Like so?

Permanent Charm (Su): At will (?), Kazgaroth may attempt to place a powerful charm upon a single creature. This functions as charm monster (CL xth, Will DC x), except the range is 60 feet and the effect is permanent. Additionally, once per week the victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or suffer 1 point of Charisma drain. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Kazgaroth may only permanently charm one creature at a time.  Should he target another creature, the first victim is immediately freed from the charm, regardless of success or failure of the new target's saving throw.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

That looks good to me. Caster level 20th?


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2008)

I also like it, and CL 20 works for me.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for this one?



> Kazgaroth’s final offensive power is perhaps its most insidious. A corrupted form of the mass charm spell, this ability transforms a troop (up to 500 persons) of living beings into the undead minions of Bhaal known as the Blood Warriors. See their entry in this section for more details on their most recent incarnation, the Blood Riders.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2008)

Sp or Su?  Should the victims need to be willing?


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

freyar said:


> Should the victims need to be willing?




I'm not sure.  Read this and tell me what you think.



> Next, the Beast viciously killed and began impersonating Thelgaar Ironhand, the mightiest king of the Northmen that lived on the Isles. Now in the role of this leader, Kazgaroth revoked Ironhand’s previous peace-loving policies and built the assembled Northmen into a conquering army bent on ravaging the island of Gywnneth, home of the Kendrick line of kings. Kazgaroth also used its corrupting mass charm ability to transform the Northmen’s only cavalry unit, the Blood Riders, into his pawns.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

It sounds to me like it transforms unwilling targets into blood riders. It shouldn't be able to do it very often. Once per year, perhaps?


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

How about this?

Troop Transformation (Su):  Once per year, Kazgaroth may transform up to 500 humanoids into blood warriors.  Each creature must succeed on a DC X Will save or immediately become a typical blood warrior (regardless of its original size or type).  Blood warriors are fanatically loyal to Kazgaroth, and may only be restored to their original form by a wish or miracle spell.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

That sounds good. We should specify what sort of effect it is (I'm guessing polymorph and death), in case the PCs get caught up in the transformation or something like that.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

I like all that.  Polymorph and death effect sounds about right to me, too.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Updated.

Shall we move on to feats and skills?

Skills: 10 at 29 ranks
Feats: Multiattack, 8 more (2 can be epic)


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Feats: Power Attack, Imp. Bull's Rush, Awesome Blow, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (claw), Improved Critical (claw)

Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Toughness


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

Feats look good.

For skills, how about Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot?  I could see swapping out Search for something like Jump or Swim if you want.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Updated.

I swapped out Search for Knowledge (local [Moonshaes])

Natural armor bonus?

Damage reduction 15/epic?

Organization: Solitary or army (Kazgaroth plus 50-500 blood warriors, x lycanthropes of various types, and x firbolgs)?

Fill in the Xs...

Swallow Whole (Ex): Kazgaroth can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to Large size by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes x+x points of bludgeoning damage and x points of acid damage per round from Kazgaroth's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the gizzard (AC x). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

I'd say we need at least +20 natural, maybe more like +25.

DR looks good.

20-40 lycanthropes and 10-20 firbolgs?

3d10+6 bludgeoning and 2d6 acid?  Gizzard AC = 10+natural/2.  25 hp damage to gizzard?


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

Updated.

We still need to address this...



> Kazgaroth is an integral component of the Moonshae Isles (see Ecology below) and if slain, returns in 3d6 years. Only the now-lost sword of Cymrych Hugh could permanently kill the Beast.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 5, 2008)

Something like rejuvenation?


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

Either that or something like this...

Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead. If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Something like rejuvenation?



That's what I think, too.  Just plug into the ghost's text.  Want to keep the specific sword or make it the DM's favorite McGuffin?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 6, 2008)

Leave the sword, although mention that other methods are within the realm (no pun intended) of possibility.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

How's this?

Rejuvenation (Su):  Although Kazgaroth can be slain in battle, he always returns in full health in 3d6 years.  Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions.  The only way to permanently destroy Kazgaroth is to land the killing blow with the _sword of Cymrych Hugh_.  (DMs not playing in the Forgotten Realms should substitute other items or methods for Kazgaroth's final destruction.)


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

That sounds pretty good!


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Updated.

CR 25?

Treasure: Triple standard?

Kazgaroth is 30 feet long, stands 18 feet tall, and *weighs 3 tons*? 

Kazgaroth speaks Abyssal, Common, Giant, and (whatever regional language is used in the Moonshaes)?

Another idea just ocurred to me.  Since he spreads lycanthropy and works closely with them, give him something similar to this?

Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or dire animals of their animal form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Wait, so would lycanthropic empathy work on all animals, or on lycanthropes? I don't think he should empathize with animals, although a bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate checks made to influence lycanthropes I could get behind.

3 to 4 tons should be right.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Like so?

Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): Kazgaroth can communicate and empathize with lycanthropes, much in the way lycanthropes communicate with animals of their type. This gives him a +4 racial bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate checks made to influence lycanthropes.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Looks good to me!


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

That all looks good!  Per the 3e FRCS, the language you want is Illuskan.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.  All done?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

I'm happy with it if demiurge is.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

We should give it a "gallop" SQ, like gambols (MMII) and caterwauls (ToH) for the "on all fours" thing. Something like, 

Gallop (Ex) Kazgaroth gains an extra 10 feet to his movement speed when travelling on all fours, but cannot make claw attacks in a round in which he does so.

Either that or forget that nonsense and increase his speed to 50 feet for good.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

I'd be more than happy to forget the nonsense.  

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Now I think we're done.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

*THE FAERIE QUEEN*
The Faerie Queen reigns over the Seelie Court. Known in various legends as Titania, Maeve, or Mab, she is a fey creature of unearthly beauty. Of lawful neutral alignment, she is devoted to her “children” but is fair to travelers she encounters—so long as they have not mistreated the faerie folk.

Faerie Queen: AC 2; MV 15, Fl 15 (B); HD 20; hp 162; THAC0 5; #AT 1; Dmg by spell; SA Seeming, spells; SD immune to illusions and charm spells, invisible at will, know alignment; SW iron, salt; MR 50%; SZ M (5' tall); ML 16 (champion); AL LN; XP 21,000.

Notes: The queen has a Seeming score of 100 and no need of a perception score—she can see through the Seeming at will. SW—Iron weapons inflict an additional 2 points of damage with each hit; salt thrown on the queen neutralizes her invisibility ability for 1 turn.

S 10, D 18, C 16, I 18, W 17, Ch 19.

Personality: Capricious, fair, devoted to and defensive of her subjects.

Spells under her command (6/6/6/6/6/5/4/4/3 per day): All illusion/phantasm and 1st- and 2nd-level enchantment/charm spells (priestly or wizardly), plus affect normal fires, color spray, create water, dancing lights, detect magic, entangle, faerie fire, feather fall, light, protection from evil, purify food and drink, shillelagh; barkskin, detect invisibility, goodberry, produce flame, speak witt animals, warp wood; blink, continual light, create food and water, gust of wind, hold person, protection from evil 10-foot radius, pyrotechnics, seelie spell of forgetting, suggestion, tree, water walk; confusion, reflecting pool, tongues; false vision, Leomund’s lamentable belaborment; enchant an item,true seeing.

The Faerie Queen is a creature of such ethereal beauty that any nonfaerie who beholds her must immediately succeed at a saving throw vs. spell or be charmed. In all the Shadow World, the Faerie Queen has the greatest power over the Seeming—after all, she was alive before it existed, and has had an eternity to hone her command of it. As the last surviving Sie (see “Ecology,” below), she also commands both wizardly and priestly magic.

The queen considers herself the ultimate protector of the faeries, and defends them from outsiders as a mother does her children. Should one of the faeries commit a misdeed, however, she also punishes it as a mother would her wayward child. Faeries encountered outside the Seelie Court are often the subjects of such discipline, enduring temporary or permanent banishment from the court as the penalty for some transgression. The fair folk love their queen so dearly that such exile is the strongest form of punishment imaginable to them. Just as the queen devotes herself to their protection, they in turn will defend her to the death.

Originally appeared in Blood Spawn (2002).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

What the hell is "Blood Spawn"? The timing suggests 3e, but not the statblock...

And lawful neutral? I call shenanigans. I suspect chaotic good would be most appropriate for the Seelie Queen.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Blood Spawn was a Birthright book (and free download), the same one from which the current seelie faerie conversion appeared.

I'm with ya on chaotic good.


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2009)

Hey, she has Leomund's lamentable belaborment again! 

According to WotC's Fey Feature, Seelie is lawful (preferable LN) and Unseelie chaotic (CN).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

I wouldn't buy that for a nickel, myself.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Ditto here.  The Dragon Compendium templates give an alignment of "any" for seelie court fey, and "any evil" for the unseelies.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm happy to go with CG.  Oddly, didn't Gwendolyn Kestrel write both of those things?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Ah. This is Gwendolyn Kestrel's doing. I should have known.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

> Faerie Queen: AC 2; MV 15, Fl 15 (B); HD 20; hp 162; THAC0 5; #AT 1; Dmg by spell; SA Seeming, spells; SD immune to illusions and charm spells, invisible at will, know alignment; SW iron, salt; MR 50%; SZ M (5' tall); ML 16 (champion); AL LN; XP 21,000.




20 HD, or use "divide by 4.5" rule for 36 HD?



> S 10, D 18, C 16, I 18, W 17, Ch 19.




Regardless of the chosen HD, these ability scores will end up underwhelming.



> Spells under her command (6/6/6/6/6/5/4/4/3 per day): All illusion/phantasm and 1st- and 2nd-level enchantment/charm spells (priestly or wizardly), plus affect normal fires, color spray, create water, dancing lights, detect magic, entangle, faerie fire, feather fall, light, protection from evil, purify food and drink, shillelagh; barkskin, detect invisibility, goodberry, produce flame, speak witt animals, warp wood; blink, continual light, create food and water, gust of wind, hold person, protection from evil 10-foot radius, pyrotechnics, seelie spell of forgetting, suggestion, tree, water walk; confusion, reflecting pool, tongues; false vision, Leomund’s lamentable belaborment; enchant an item,true seeing.






> As the last surviving Sie (see “Ecology,” below), she also commands both wizardly and priestly magic.




Sorcerer spellcasting (with cleric spell list cast as arcane spells) or SLAs?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

Let's go 36HD.  Sorcerer spellcasting.  Yeah, we'll need to improve those abilities a bunch.  How high should we aim?  Mid-upper twenties for mental stats?  I'm not sure the physical ones need too much boosting.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 21, 2009)

Agreed to mid-to-upper 20s for mental stats, 36 HD, sorcerer casting with clerical spells on the list.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggested AC?  I'm thinking unearthly grace is a given here.

Simplify "immune to illusions and charm spells" to immunity to mind-influencing spells and abilities?



> The Faerie Queen is a creature of such ethereal beauty that any nonfaerie who beholds her must immediately succeed at a saving throw vs. spell or be charmed.




Borrow blinding beauty from the nymph, or modify it to "charming beauty"?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 23, 2009)

Well, not many illusions are also mind-affecting, so we should say "immune to mind-affecting and illusions". Agreed to unearthly grace. Target AC... in the mid 30s, since she'll be able to boost it with her spells?


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Any natural armor, or base the rest on her magic?

Thoughts on the blinding/charming beauty?


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## freyar (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm not sure about giving her natural armor per se, but maybe a high-powered amulet of natural armor would work.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 23, 2009)

Gear! Good point. She should have a ton of it, and we should specify what.


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

I could even see a well-enchanted set of mithral chain, couldn't you?


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Indeed.  Perhaps one with greater silent moves?


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2009)

So +X greater silent moves elven chain?  Maybe +2 or +3?  What's reasonable gp cost here?

We should probably make sure she gets barkskin as a spell known.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Since armor enhancements are cheap, I don't think a +5 enhancement bonus in addition to silent moves is unrealistic at her probably CR.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2009)

+5 it is.  And barkskin.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

Well... barkskin is neither a clerical or a wizard spell. 'tis druidic. Should we perhaps swap out cleric spells for druid in her accessibles? Would make sense, flavor-wise.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Yes, I think that would be appropriate.


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2009)

Hmm, I think I was just reading druid in there due to the flavor.   The nice thing is that the natural armor ought to stack, unlike mage armor.  Magic vestment might help if we want cleric spells, too.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

So..switch to druid spells, or allow her to gain barkskin from the Plant domain?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

Ooh. Domains is something I hadn't thought of. Let's give her clerical with access to the Animal, Plant and Trickery domains. Maybe Luck as well/instead of Trickery.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Sounds great!  Let's give her all four domains.

Updated.

Do we want to saddle her with the 20% arcane spell failure chance of elven chain?  Maybe give her an ability similar to some "battlemage" prestige classes wherein she naturally lowers/negates arcane spell failure chances?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

Yeah. Armored casting. Can cast all spells in light armor?


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Like so?

Armored Casting (Ex):  The Faerie Queen may ignore the arcane spell failure chance of light armor.

Let's work on her spell list.

Spells: The Faerie Queen casts spells as a 20th-level sorcerer. The Faerie Queen can also cast cleric spells and those from the Animal, Luck, Plant, and Trickery domains as arcane spells.

Sorcerer Spells Known (6/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7, save DC 19 + spell level): 
0—9; 
1st—5; 
2nd—5; 
3rd—4;
4th—4;
5th—4;
6th—3;
7th—3;
8th—3;
9th—3.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

Well, that all looks good!  

0 - resistance, daze, dancing lights, ray of frost, message, detect magic, read magic, cure minor wounds, virtue?
1 - disguise self, calm animals, command, reduce person, charm person?
...


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

2nd—barkskin, hideous laughter, mirror image, silence, zone of truth; 
3rd—create food and water, heroism, plant growth, wind wall;
4th—command plants, confusion, freedom of movement, sending;
5th—commune with nature, mind fog, seeming, wall of plants;
6th—greater dispel magic, geas/quest, repel wood;
7th—animal shapes, animate plants, control weather;
8th—control plants, irresistible dance, screen;
9th—mass heal, mass hold monster, shambler.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

You had some time!  Looks pretty good, about what I'd expect for her.

Since she's from Blood Spawn like the seelie fey we're converting, should we also give her the spell of forgetting SLA?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

Let's replace wind wall with suggestion, wall of plants with baleful polymorph and control plants with mass charm monster. I like where you're going with the spell list, but I think she needs a bit more of an offense.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

freyar said:
			
		

> Since she's from Blood Spawn like the seelie fey we're converting, should we also give her the spell of forgetting SLA?




I was just in the process of adding it to her entry.  

Great minds think alike!


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Let's replace wind wall with suggestion, wall of plants with baleful polymorph and control plants with mass charm monster. I like where you're going with the spell list, but I think she needs a bit more of an offense.




Fair enough. Updated.

Suggested weapons?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

A rapier and longbow seem appropriately fey-ish to me.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> A rapier and longbow seem appropriately fey-ish to me.



Sounds right to me, too.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2009)

That works for me.  Magic 'em up a bit?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 6, 2009)

Absolutely. +4 keen dancing rapier and a +3 mighty composite longbow of distance?


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Those work for me, but what's the mighty bit doing in the longbow?  Is that one of those words that's in the PHB but not the SRD?  (And considering she's only Str 10, it's not that mighty! )


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 6, 2009)

Ah. I thought she had a higher strength than that (mighty = add Str bonus to damage. It's under the composite longbow entry).


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Updated.

Damage reduction 20/cold iron?

Skills: 15 at 39 ranks

Feats: 13 (6 can be epic)


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 9, 2009)

20/cold iron and epic could give her some extra survivability. She's fragile. Just plain ol' cold iron works as well, though.

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Extend Spell, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (concentration)... other than that, I got nothing. This one is odd.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

20/epic and cold iron sounds good.

Since she's a sorcerous caster, I'm thinking metamagic feats are worthwhile.  The 6 epic feats could get her 10th-level and higher slots.

Maybe...

Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Skill Focus (Concentration), Weapon Finesse
Epic Feats:  Enhance Spell, Intensify Spell, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity (3)


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Thing is, she doesn't have many spells that involve dice. It's all charms and summons and buffs--nothing to empower or maximize.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Silent and/or Still Spell might be good, or Heighten Spell.  Spell Focus to improve DCs also makes sense.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Hmmm....good point.

In that case, perhaps the Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus/Epic Spell Focus and maybe the Silent Spell/Automatic Silent Spell route would be best.   Since we already gave her armored caster, I'm not sure if Still Spell is really useful for her.

We could also go after Automatic Quicken Spell, even though it requires the "useless for sorcerers" Quicken Spell as a prereq.  Still, getting a free 0-through 3rd-level spell each round isn't bad.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

You're right about Still Spell.  

Maybe: 
Extend Spell, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Skill Focus (Concentration), Weapon Finesse, Spell Focus (enchantment), Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Silent Spell
Epic Feats: Epic Spell Focus (enchantment), Automatic Silent Spell, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity (2)

If we also want Quicken and Automatic Quicken, I'd be ok with dropping Skill Focus or one or more ranged feat.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm curious what Demiurge thinks about the Quickening (not the horrible Highlander sequel...the feats  ).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Automatic Quicken is worth "throwing away" a feat for.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

So... Drop Skill focus and one Improved Spell Capacity?  Or drop PBS and Precise Shot? Or swap out with the Still Spell feats?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Ditch the Still Spells.


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## Melatuis (Mar 11, 2009)

How about given her one those bows that has wheels and pullies - draw of Str 10 - lets fly at Str 20+?.

Of course, this would be a magical Str bonus.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Oooh, can you remind me where those bows are from?  That might be fun for her.  After all, she's rich enough!


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm not familiar with that bow...interesting.

Updated.

Skills: 15 at 39 ranks
Bluff, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device?

Environment: The Seelie Court?

Organization: Solitary or Court (the Faerie Queen plus x-x seelie faeries of various sizes)?

Treasure: Triple standard (includes weapons and armor listed above)?


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Skills sound good, environment is good.  Let's let the Court be 4d8.

Maybe triple standard should be beyond the included equipment, since she's the faerie queen after all.  (Well, a lot might be in a vault or something.)  Or I could just do double plus equipment. I know that might seem odd, but it just seems tricky today to have to subtract out that stuff for some reason.


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## Melatuis (Mar 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> Oooh, can you remind me where those bows are from?  That might be fun for her.  After all, she's rich enough!




I see them on the Hunting Chanel.  They have counter balances also.  I will look them up on the web and see what I find.


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## Melatuis (Mar 11, 2009)

Wiki: Compound bow (1/4)
The compound bow is a contemporary bow that requires less force at full draw than other more traditional bows.

The compound bow can transfer more energy more efficiently to the arrow due to its rigidity, stability, and consistency. Since the limbs are stiffer, the bow would almost be impossible to draw back without the assistance of the cams (also known as wheels and pulleys). The existence of cams within a mechanical leverage system is the major difference between the compound bow and a traditional bow. The compound bow has the string attached to the cams, and there are cables attached to both the cams and the limbs. When the archer draws back the string, the cams turn causing the cables to pull the limbs closer together and store more energy. Cam assistance in the pulling of the limbs allows the archer to pull back much more weight; this process is known as let off. Let off reduces the draw weight by 60 to 70 percent during the second half of the draw back cycle, and an archer then holds less weight at full draw than when he started pulling back.


the Reezen 7.0, speed of 355 feet per sec. 
Reezen 7.0

Or would this be something from a tinkering gnome?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

You know, I've seen one of these before.  But maybe it's too high-tech for her.  Wonder if there's a D&D description of these somewhere.  Surely there's a rule for practically every kind of equipment!


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Ahhh...OK, I see what you're talking about now.  I thought you meant a magic item.

Yeah, let's not use that level of technology here.  If we really need to boost her ranged damage output, I'd prefer adding an energy damage property like shocking burst to the bow.  I'm not sure she needs it, though, since she's primarily a spellcaster.


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 12, 2009)

I think the gnomish steam bow (from Arms and Equipment Guide) is similar to what you're talking about.


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## Melatuis (Mar 12, 2009)

I really did not think it was her kind of bow.  Thanks looking at it.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

She can always pick up a few magic arrows if necessary, too.

With the suggestions above, I guess we need weight, language, and CR.  70 lb (is that wispy enough?)?  Sylvan, Common, Elf, Gnome?  Want to add Draconic and/or Celestial?  She's smart enough.  CR, umm, low 20s, maybe 23?


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Updated.

I swapped out Knowledge (history) for Concentration, since she'll rely heavily on it for spellcasting.

I also added Wild Empathy, since many fey have it (and she gets a sweet synergy bonus for her Handle Animal ranks).

CR 22?  She's about on par with Barachiel, and slightly inferior to a solar.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

I'm happy with all that.  She's ready to go, then?


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

I'll work on flavor text, and see if it requires/inspires more abilities.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

CR 22 is fine by me.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Updated with flavor text.  I didn't see anything else that needed to be added along the way.

Is she ready for the Catalog?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

If the seelie spell of forgetting is an SLA equivalent to 3rd level, the DC should be 25, not 37. Did you give it the DC of an Su power, perhaps?

Other than that, I'm satisfied.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Oops, I sure did!  Good catch.  I'll fix it.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Nice catch!  Anyway, she looks good to go.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Although not quite epic, this fellow is unique...

*Treant, Evil (Blackroot)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tepest
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11)
TREASURE: Qx5, X
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 12 (84 hit points)
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4d6/4d6 (branches)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Animate trees, spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (18'tall)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 14,000

The domain of Tepest has long suffered under the evil of the three hags who rule it. Their wickedness has seeped into the land, permeating it and poisoning even the plants and beasts of the forests. Perhaps the most awful example of this corrupting taint is the dreaded Blackroot. This evil treant dwells southwest of Lake Kronov, near the border of the Shadow Rift. None who pass through these woods do so without attracting his notice and, if care is not taken, his wrath.

Blackroot stands just over eighteen feet tall and looks like an ancient oak. His bark is grooved and rough, providing excellent protection from physical attacks. His branches are long and gnarled, never sprouting leaves or showing even the faintest hints of bud or blossom. When he wishes to be seen for what he is, a gnarled face appears to form out of the fissures and grooves of his bark. A great and terrible maw, shaped like an inverted V, opens up beneath two knotty eyes.

Blackroot, like most treants of any alignment, is able to speak with the animals of the forest. His evil is so pervasive, however, that the traditionally neutral animals of the forest near him have become neutral evil. Thus, even the most innocent creature in Blackroot's realm can be a potential enemy. Blackroot speaks the languages of Tepest and each of its neighboring domains. He seems to have no understanding of writing, not recognizing it as a form of communication.

Combat: Those who enter the forest attempting to destroy Blackroot are seldom seen again. If they are not destroyed by the wilderness which he commands, they usually perish in combat with this ancient, evil creature when they find him. Blackroot can attack twice per combat round, inflicting 4d6 points of damage with each blow that strikes its target. His tremendous strength and mass is such that it enables him to crumple even plate armor as easily as if it were cardboard.

Blackroot's thick bark provides him with excellent protection from most attacks. However, his plantlike biology makes him very vulnerable to attacks made with magical or mundane fire. Any weapon or spell that employs fire gains a +4 bonus on the attack and inflicts an extra +1 point of damage per die. In addition, Blackroot suffers a -4 penalty on all saving throws against fire-based attacks.

Because of this vulnerability, Blackroot quickly attempts to destroy anyone who is careless with fires in his woods. As he is well aware of the danger that such enemies pose, he prefers to act indirectly, sending savage wolves and other animals of the forest to destroy fire-wielding enemies for him. Only if these means fail will he seek a direct confrontation.

The infusion of evil from the tainted soil of Tepest has given him several magical abilities that most of his kind do not possess. Once per day he may cast the following spells as a 12th-level druid: 1st-animal friendship,
entangle, locate animals or plants, putrefy food or drink; 2nd-charm person or mammal, create water, speak with animals, warp wood; 3rd-hold animal, plant growth, snare, spike growth, summon insects; 4th-animal summoning I, call woodland beings, hold plant, repel insects, speak with plants; 5th-animal growth, animal summoning II, antiplant shell, wall of thorns; 6th-antianimal shell, speak with monsters. Blackroot has no need of components for his' spells; they are all simple acts of will.

Blackroot has the ability to animate the trees of his forest, causing them to obey his mental commands. It takes one round for an animated tree to uproot itself, but once this is done it is fully mobile. At any given time he may have two such followers doing his bidding. These trees conform to the statistics for mature treants, having 10 Hit Dice and inflicting 3d6 points of damage with each of their two attacks. They are not actually intelligent but do serve as extensions of Blackroot's own consciousness. Trees under his control must remain within sixty yards of their master, or they revert to their normal status.

Habitat/Society: Blackroot began his life as a tree, not a treant. He was a majestic and noble plant towering above the other trees of the forest and fairly radiating health and stamina. Indeed, so wondrous was this fine oak that a sect of druids settled around it to protect and nurture the ancient plant.

It was not long, of course, before the hags who rule Tepest took notice both of the tree and its protectors. They saw that more and more people were turning to the ways of the druids, venerating nature and balance. Such a shift in attention away from the action of the coven was unacceptable to the darklords.

In order to set things straight, the hags decided to destroy the druids, making an example of them to the other inhabitants of Tepest. One by one, each of the druids was transformed into a twisted and putrefied tree. As these newly created trees took root, the other flora and fauna of the wilds began to change until they too were twisted and corrupted. So sinister and terrible were these new trees that the people of Tepest began to avoid the woods.

The great oak, however, they reserved for special attention. In their horrible iron cauldron, they brewed a special draught composed of things dark and dreadful. When their terrible brew was finished, they took it out into the forest and dribbled it on the roots of the tree. Every night for a month the trio gathered around the tree at midnight and repeated their dark ritual. In the end, as a full moon the color of blood rose into a cloudless sky, the great oak's transformation was completed. With the hags dancing and cackling over their success, Blackroot was born.

Over the years, this once-great tree has become more and more evil. Through the plants and animals of the forest, he keeps a careful eye on all that transpires in the Brujamonte. While he is not under any form of mental domination, he does the bidding of the hags out of respect for their greater evil and in the hopes that he might one day replace them as the master of Tepest.

Ecology: Blackroot survives on a diet of human, demihuman, and humanoid flesh. Because of the large number of goblins that infest the woods of Tepest, he is frequently able to satisfy his hunger without molesting travelers on the Timori Road. From time to time, however, he becomes hungry for sweeter, human flesh. Generally, this happens about once a month.
Anyone who enters the forests of southwestern Tepest instantly becomes aware of that place's evil nature. The trees produce bitter fruit, the streams are brackish, stinging insects swarm everywhere, and thorny undergrowth hinders progress in every direction.

Adventure Ideas: The players might come into contact with Blackroot and his forest entirely by accident. Such an encounter could easily occur as they traveled the Timori Road into or out of Tepest. Blackroot frequently orders his trees to attack caravans and parties traveling on that highway to satisfy his hunger for flesh.

On the other hand, the destruction of the druid cult could also be used as a motivation for the heroes to enter the Brujamonte. The very nature of this corrupted wood should entice any druid in the party to examine its mysteries. Groups without such a person in their company could easily be contacted and hired to learn what happened to the druids who once lived in Tepest.

Adventures centering on Blackroot should focus not only on the destruction of the evil treant but also on the restoration of the area. This was once an area of great natural splendor and, with an enormous amount of effort, it might someday be restored to that state.

Of course, the hags who rule Tepest are certain to take notice of anyone who attempts to destroy their handiwork. They take pride in the malignant ugliness of the Brujamonte, and heroes attempting to set right the changes that they have made are certain to be looked upon as challengers to their authority. As such, the hags will simply seek to destroy them.

In Prince of Shadows, the encounters in Blackroot's forest should be used merely as incentive for the heroes to turn back toward Briggdarrow. If they have entered the Brujamonte, they must have either missed or ignored the events that were intended to pull them into the adventure.

Originally appeard in MC15 - Monstrous Compendium Ravenloft Appendix II: Children of the Night (1993).


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Using the "divide by 4.5" rule, he'd have 18 HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

OK, advance a treant to 18 HD, give him 12th level druid casting... charm animal at will as an SLA, or a unique Su that makes all animals within a (very large) radius fiendish and friendly to him?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2009)

I kind of like the corruption of animals to fiendish.  But it should take some time, I think, and allow some kind of save.


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

I like that idea as well.

Also, since he is so corrupt and foul, maybe add "and good" to his DR?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Updated.

Let's work on his spell list...



> Once per day he may cast the following spells as a 12th-level druid: 1st-animal friendship, entangle, locate animals or plants, putrefy food or drink; 2nd-charm person or mammal, create water, speak with animals, warp wood; 3rd-hold animal, plant growth, snare, spike growth, summon insects; 4th-animal summoning I, call woodland beings, hold plant, repel insects, speak with plants; 5th-animal growth, animal summoning II, antiplant shell, wall of thorns; 6th-antianimal shell, speak with monsters. Blackroot has no need of components for his' spells; they are all simple acts of will.




Typical Druid Spells Prepared (6/6/5/5/3/3/2; save DC 13 + spell level): 
0—purify food and drink, 5 more; 
1st—charm animal, detect animals or plants, entangle, speak with animals, 2 more; 
2nd—hold animal, summon swarm, warp wood, 2 more; 
3rd—plant growth, snare, spike growth, 1 more; 
4th—blight/command plants, repel vermin, speak with plants;
5th—animal growth, wall of thorns, 1 more;
6th—antilife shell, 1 more.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2009)

Note that he doesn't have purify food and drink. He has _putrefy_--make it rotten. Give him a unique Su, based on the curse water of a black dragon?

Let's go with command plants over blight.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Good catch.  Yeah, corrupt water should fit the bill.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

There's a "they" in the flavor text that should be "he" or "it."

Agreed to the above with Su putrefy based on curse water.

0th - detect magic, guidance (x2), know direction, resistance (x2)
1st - longstrider, magic fang
2nd - chill metal, fog cloud
3rd - dominate animal
4th - ...
5th - SNA V
6th - greater dispel magic
?

It seems like he should also get free Silent, Still, and Eschew Materials.  I think we've done a SQ for that before, too.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Double post, darn it!


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Looks good, except druids automatically replace spells with summon nature's ally, so no need for SNA V.  Replace with death ward?

For 3rd, dominate animal and greater magic fang?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> It seems like he should also get free Silent, Still, and Eschew Materials. I think we've done a SQ for that before, too.




Good idea.  Now if I can just find where we've done it before...


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Oh, I read that 3rd only needed one more.  Greater magic fang works, sure.  

Forgot about the spontaneous SNA...

Can't remember who had that special ability, either.  Hmm.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2009)

Was that the Zombi Emperor? Or the burning undead of Cyric?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

I looked up Le Grand Zombi before, and it wasn't him.  But I think you're right about the burnbones.  That's not in the CC yet, alas.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Bingo!

Spells: A burnbones continues to prepare and cast divine spells as it did in life. However, as a gift from its dark deity, none of its spells require verbal, somatic, or material components.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

That'll do it!


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Updated.

Shall we work on the animal corruption ability?


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2009)

Sure!  I was thinking maybe something like Kazgaroth's mass corrupting charm but applying the fiendish or similar template.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2009)

Good call.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2009)

Ok, Kazgaroth has

Troop Transformation (Su): Once per year, Kazgaroth may transform up to 500 humanoids into blood warriors. Each creature must succeed on a DC 29 Will save or immediately become a typical blood warrior (regardless of its original size or type). Blood warriors are fanatically loyal to Kazgaroth, and may only be restored to their original form by a wish or miracle spell. This is a polymorph and death effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. 

How about this:
Animal Transformation (Su): Any animal that spends a continuous week (month?) within 2? miles of Blackroot must make a DC X Will save or be transformed into a fiendish creature (gaining the fiendish creature template) of NE alignment.  The fiendish animal is always friendly or helpful to Blackroot.  This is a polymorph effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 29, 2009)

A week, I think, should be good. Agreed to 2 miles.


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2009)

We should also add a way to reverse the transformation.  We should definitely add limited wish, wish, and miracle, but I'm torn about break enchantment.  Anyway, leaving off break enchantment for now:

Animal Transformation (Su): Any animal that spends a continuous week within 2 miles of Blackroot must make a DC 20 Will save or be transformed into a fiendish creature (gaining the fiendish creature template) of NE alignment. The fiendish animal is always friendly or helpful to Blackroot. The transformation can only be reversed by means of  a limited wish, wish, or miracle spell.  This is a polymorph effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm generally a fan of break enchantment--if it can fix petrifaction, it should be able to fix this too.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Agreed to break enchantment, and I like the ability.

Updated.

300-foot range for corrupt water ability?

Skills: 63 ranks (Treant has Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival)

Concentration 9, Intimidate 9, Knowledge (nature) 9, Listen 9, Sense Motive 9, Spot 9, Survival 9?

Feats: 7 (Treant has Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack)
Awesome Blow, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack, 2 more?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

Yeah, I just wasn't sure if I wanted to drop to a 5th level spell to reverse it.

300 ft seems good to me.

I'd say 10 ranks in Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and 11 in the other 3.  Or else just 21 each in the other three.

Extend Spell, Enlarge Spell?  Maybe rejigger his spells a little?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

I like Extend Spell, but how about we give him Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augmented Summoning. Ooh! And an Su that makes all animals he summons with SNA spells fiendish!

I also think his AC should be better. AC 20 will get chewed up and spat out at the levels he's aimed at.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like Extend Spell, but how about we give him Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augmented Summoning. Ooh! And an Su that makes all animals he summons with SNA spells fiendish!




Love it!



> I also think his AC should be better. AC 20 will get chewed up and spat out at the levels he's aimed at.




Suggested AC?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

18 HD, 12th level druid casting... I think we're about CR 14 (by the way, you should adjust its hit points to be its average, and not the average for a treant). So AC should be around 25, 26 or so.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

Updated.

Does this suffice?

Fiendish Summons (Su):  All creatures summoned by Blackroot via summon nature's ally spells gain the fiendish creature template.

Treasure: Standard (like a treant) or maybe double standard?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

I like all that stuff, too!

I guess we boosted natural, but we could also give him unholy grace or something and boost his Cha a bit.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2009)

Double standard treasure, methinks. He's clearly a Boss Monster.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

freyar said:


> I guess we boosted natural, but we could also give him unholy grace or something and boost his Cha a bit.




While typing up his flavor text, I noticed that in his original writeup they really emphasized the defensive nature of his bark, so high natural seems justified.

Updated.

Should we change the enviroment to "temperate forests" and note Tepest in the Ravenloft "sidebar"?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

Nat AC is ok.

I agree with changing environment.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2009)

Agreed to the generic environment.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

Looks pretty much done.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2009)

Done and done.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

*THE DARK QUEEN*
The Dark Queen, Lussina, reigns over the Unseelie Court. The daughter of the seelie Faerie Queen, she once possessed beauty beyond imagining. But Lussina also possessed envy, ambition, and ruthlessness. She plotted to overthrow her mother and take her place as queen of the Seelie Court. She failed. The Faerie Queen, unable to bring herself to punish her daughter with a traitor’s death, cast Lussina out of the Seelie Court forever. In a rage, Lussina gathered her followers together and formed her own court—with herself as queen.

*Lussina, the Dark Queen:* AC 3; MV 15, Fl 15 (B); HD 14; hp 81; THAC0 7; #AT 1; Dmg by spell; SA Seeming, spells; SD immune to illusions and charm spells, invisible at will, know alignment; SW iron, salt; MR 50%; SZ M (4' 4" tall); ML 16 (champion); AL NE; XP 15,000.

Notes: The queen has a Seeming score of 78 and a perception score of 90. SW— Iron weapons inflict an additional 2 points of damage with each hit; salt thrown on the queen neutralizes her invisibility ability for 1 turn; holy water burns her flesh for 1d6+1 points of damage.
S 11, D 17, C 17, I 16, W 13, Ch 19.
Personality: Cruel, calculating, seductive, megalomanical. 
Spells under her command (6/6/6/5/3/2/1 per day): All priestly spells of the charm and necromantic spheres, plus destroy (create) water, detect good (evil), detect magic, entangle, faerie fire, protection from good (evil), putrify (purify) food and drink, shillelagh; badberry (goodberry), barkskin, obscurement, produce flame, speak with animals, undetectable (detect) charm, warp wood; bestow (remove) curse, create food and water, pyrotechnics, seelie spell of forgetting, spike growth, tree; hallucinatory forest, protection from good (evil) 10-foot radius, reflecting pool, sticks to snakes, tongues; false (true) seeing.

The Dark Queen has lost her comeliness but retains the allure of a black widow. Any male character who beholds her must immediately succeed at a saving throw vs. spell or fall prey to her seduction (per a charm spell). Lussina seeks not to seduce her victims sexually, however, but psychologically, trying to enlist them in her side of the eternal war she wages on the Seelie Court.

Lussina demands (and receives) absolute loyalty from her followers. She grants no clemency for the smallest of infractions; even harmless negligence is punishable by death. Her own life, she believes, demonstrates the folly of mercy—she considers her mother a fool for having spared it. The Dark Queen will not risk another traitor rising up to depose her.

The Unseelie Court continually receives new members. The Faerie Queen has no tolerance for faeries with evil tendencies— more often than not, the malevolent faeries she banishes from her court find their way to her daughter’s.

Originally appeared in Blood Spawn (1992)(Birthright).


14 Hit Dice is ridiculously low.  Divide by 4.5 rule yields 18 HD  (although a more accurate "divide by 3.5 rule" for fey would give us 23 HD).  We gave the Faerie Queen 36 HD, so I find 23 to be palatable.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

23 or even more.  

Is it just me, or does she sound more LE than NE?


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## Leopold (Jul 8, 2009)

But Lussina also possessed envy, ambition, and ruthlessness.


That to me sounds as selfish as NE would allow. Her followers could be LE, but she's a self serving upstart who wanted to do her own thing and bucked the chain of command.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

I can see that, but something reminded me of diabolical politics.  Not to mention that she sounds pretty tyrannical in the unseelie court.  Not a biggie, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2009)

A more comparable HD number to the Faerie Queen would be to my liking.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Well, we used the divide by 4.5 rule for the faerie queen.  I'd like to go up a little, but I don't want to go up too much given the original divide (Lussina has 1/2 the faerie queen's hp!).  Maybe 24 to 27 somewhere?  That would be 2 or 3 epic feats' worth of HD.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

27 sounds good, since it is 3/4 of the Faerie Queen's.

We gave the Faerie Queen Str 10, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 27, Wis 26, Cha 28.

The Dark Queen is listed as S 11, D 17, C 17, I 16, W 13, Ch 19.  It looks like we can keep the physical ability scores, but should boost the mental stats quite a bit.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2009)

Agreed. Int 24, Wis 18, Cha 30, perhaps? More Charismatic than the queen, but not as smart and definately not as wise?


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Sounds good.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

I like all that.  Let's get her started.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Retain the armored mage ability of the Faerie Queen?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Yes.  



> The Dark Queen has lost her comeliness but retains the allure of a black widow. Any male character who beholds her must immediately succeed at a saving throw vs. spell or fall prey to her seduction (per a charm spell). Lussina seeks not to seduce her victims sexually, however, but psychologically, trying to enlist them in her side of the eternal war she wages on the Seelie Court.



Charm gaze attack?


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

I'd imagine its more passive like the nymph's blinding beauty.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Sounds like a plan.  Given that it's just charming, do you think we should still limit it to males?  I think so due to the original text and flavorfulness, but I always find gender-based mechanics awkward given the variety of critters.  Limit to humanoids, giants, and monstrous humanoids given that it says characters?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2009)

Agreed to armored mage, agreed to passive ala nymph. Am on the fence with it just applying to humanoids, monstrous humanoids and giants. I might just say it affects all sentients, but fey, outsiders, elementals and things immune to mind-influencing effects are safe.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

My problem with the broader applicability is if we keep the gender-specific nature (which I'm starting to like).  If it's supposed to affect plants, how do you determine what's a male tendriculos?  Or even a treant -- don't almost all flowering plants have both sex organs?


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

That is a bit of a conundrum.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2009)

Just say it affects males only, and what constitutes a male may be subject to GM interpretation in the fringe cases?


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

You know, we're basically discussing animals, plants, and magical beasts here.  So it doesn't matter much to me.  Though I'd actually consider making fey not be immune (despite my earlier position).


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Just say it affects males only, and what constitutes a male may be subject to GM interpretation in the fringe cases?




I think that is probably the best solution.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Fair enough.  Shade, I'll let you break the tie on what types it can affect.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

Like so?

Unearthly Charms (Su): Any male creature that looks directly at the Dark Queen must succeed on a DC x Will save or be charmed permanently as though by the charm person spell. Lussina can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Everything!  Bold choice!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 11, 2009)

Perhaps use "as per charm monster" rather than "charm person" to enforce the "all males everywhere" thing?


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2009)

That makes sense to me.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

Updated.



> Spells under her command (6/6/6/5/3/2/1 per day): All priestly spells of the charm and necromantic spheres, plus destroy (create) water, detect good (evil), detect magic, entangle, faerie fire, protection from good (evil), putrify (purify) food and drink, shillelagh; badberry (goodberry), barkskin, obscurement, produce flame, speak with animals, undetectable (detect) charm, warp wood; bestow (remove) curse, create food and water, pyrotechnics, seelie spell of forgetting, spike growth, tree; hallucinatory forest, protection from good (evil) 10-foot radius, reflecting pool, sticks to snakes, tongues; false (true) seeing.




I think we should make her a 20th-level caster (like the Faerie Queen).  Like so?


Spells: The Dark Queen casts spells as a 20th-level sorcerer. The Dark Queen can also cast cleric spells and those from the Charm, Darkness, Death, and (Destruction/Evil/Trickery) domains as arcane spells.

Sorcerer Spells Known (x/x/x/x/x/x/x/x/x/x, save DC 20 + spell level): 
0—x; 
1st—x; 
2nd—x; 
3rd—x;
4th—x;
5th—x;
6th—x;
7th—x;
8th—x;
9th—x.


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2009)

Let's go for Trickery to get the thematic link with the Faerie Queen.  Sorry, too busy today to dig through spell lists.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Agreed to Trickery. Also agreed to time-crunch on spell-digging. Maybe tomorrow (if this computer still works...).


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to Trickery. Also agreed to time-crunch on spell-digging. Maybe tomorrow (if this computer still works...).




That latter bit sounds darkly ominous...


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, I've been fighting with viruses all weekend. Things seemed to have quieted down, but I've come to the conclusion that I need to get a new computer, sooner rather than later.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Nothing beats a fresh start!


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Well, I've been fighting with viruses all weekend. Things seemed to have quieted down, but I've come to the conclusion that I need to get a new computer, sooner rather than later.



Good luck with the computer!  I can sympathize.  Besides spell lists, anything we should work on for her?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

We need weapons and armor.  Faerie queen has 5 greater silent moves elven chain, +4 keen dancing rapier, and +3 composite longbow of distance.

Damage reduction x/cold iron and epic (Faerie Queen's is 20)

Spell resistance x (Faerie Queen's is CR+11)

Skills: 13 at 30 ranks
Bluff and Intimidate are a given

Feats: 10 (3 can be epic)
Faerie Queen has Automatic Quicken Spell, Epic Spell Focus (enchantment), Extend Spell, Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity (x2), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quicken Spell, Skill Focus (Concentration), Spell Focus (enchantment), Weapon Finesse


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2009)

Let's give her some kind of cold iron weapon.  She's mean.  Some other kind of light weapon, too, maybe a short sword?


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## Leopold (Jul 16, 2009)

What about a Sai?

SRD:Sai - D&D Wiki


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2009)

Sai is ok, though I'm not sure I see her with an exotic weapon.  What about a kukri?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

I like the kukri.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

+3 keen spell-storing kukri?

+2 seeking composite shortbow?

+4 greater shadow elven chain?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

Perhaps instead of seeking, it's bane, and she has an Su power that her shortbow becomes the bane of whatever it last struck?


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

I like it!


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

Yeah, that's excellent!  I think the weapons and armor look pretty good.  Are we still going with cold iron on the kukri?  I think she'd like to bypass common fey DR for some reason.


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

Updated.

Damage reduction x/cold iron and epic (Faerie Queen's is 20)

Spell resistance x (Faerie Queen's is CR+11)

Skills: 13 at 30 ranks
Bluff and Intimidate are a given

Feats: 10 (3 can be epic)
Faerie Queen has Automatic Quicken Spell, Epic Spell Focus (enchantment), Extend Spell, Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity (x2), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quicken Spell, Skill Focus (Concentration), Spell Focus (enchantment), Weapon Finesse


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

That's one nice kukri! 

DR 15?

SR = CR +11 again?

Bluff, Concentration, Craft (x), Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device

I'm thinking of some Craft appropriate for magic item creation (perhaps constructs of some sort?) and UMD for faking alignment.  How's that look?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

Craft Wondrous, Craft Arms and Armor and Craft Construct are all pretty good. I can see her controlling a Golden Army.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

So would Craft (weaponsmithing) be the appropriate skill, then?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

Sure?


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Lookin' good!   I like the Golden Army idea.  

The "metallic" golems tend to use Craft (armorsmithing) or (weaponsmithing), while the stone and clay use (sculpting).

I'd say (armorsmithing) or (weaponsmithing) is a given, and poach ranks from Diplomacy for (sculpting) if we'd like her to have stone constructs.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

We can also poach ranks from UMD or Tumble probably, as those won't be her main schticks.

So we've got 3 feats: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Construct.  Weapon Finesse also seems important for her.  Perhaps we should pick spells before choosing the rest of the feats, though.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

It would make the spell lists easier if we picked the metamagic feats first for a change.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, I guess I was thinking about the Spell Focus feats, but we can always just fill them in with the appropriate school later if we want.

Just a question while I ponder what epic feats to aim toward: what are the 4 metamagic feats the Faerie Queen uses as prereqs for Improved Metamagic?  I only get 3, and that's counting Automatic Quicken.  Do the Improved Spell Capacity feats count?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

OK. Deep breath. It's time to write a draft of the spell list:

Sorcerer Spells Known (6/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7, save DC 20 + spell level):
0—arcane mark, dancing lights, detect poison, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, touch of fatigue
1st—disguise self, divine favor, protection from good, shield, true strike
2nd—knock, hideous laughter, mirror image, see invisibility, touch of idiocy
3rd—arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, haste, rage
4th—confusion, crushing despair, cure critical wounds, death ward
5th—feeblemind, mind fog, prying eyes, seeming
6th—greater dispel magic, heal, mislead
7th—blasphemy, greater scrying, project image
8th—demand, greater shadow evocation, polymorph any object
9th—dominate monster, time stop, wail of the banshee


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Exhale.  

Looks great!   



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Well, I guess I was thinking about the Spell Focus feats, but we can always just fill them in with the appropriate school later if we want.




And I was forgetting that as a spontaneous caster, she'll apply metamagic feats on the fly.  



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Just a question while I ponder what epic feats to aim toward: what are the 4 metamagic feats the Faerie Queen uses as prereqs for Improved Metamagic? I only get 3, and that's counting Automatic Quicken. Do the Improved Spell Capacity feats count?




Nope, it doesn't.  You caught us in a blunder!


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

That's a nice draft on that spell list!

Re: Faerie Queen's feats.  Assuming Automatic Quicken should count as metamagic even though it's only labeled as Epic, we can just swap one Improved Spell Capacity for any metamagic feat.  Heck, we could even do Automatic Quicken again if we want.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 22, 2009)

What are the Faerie Queen's previous metamagic feats? Extend or Heighten leap to mind as ones that might benefit her.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Extend and Quicken.  I've been looking at the epic feats, and I notice that Automatic Quicken doesn't have the [Metamagic] tag in the SRD (like Automatic Still and Silent), though other epic metamagic feats do (like Intensify Spell is [Epic] [Metamagic]).  So Automatic Quicken may not count as a prereq for Improved Metamagic either.  We may have to revise her feats quite a bit.

For reference, here she is.

Edit: returning to the Unseelie Queen for a moment, let's make sure she gets limited wish and geas/quest for spells known, since they are pretty important for making constructs.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Extend and Quicken.  I've been looking at the epic feats, and I notice that Automatic Quicken doesn't have the [Metamagic] tag in the SRD (like Automatic Still and Silent), though other epic metamagic feats do (like Intensify Spell is [Epic] [Metamagic]).  So Automatic Quicken may not count as a prereq for Improved Metamagic either.  We may have to revise her feats quite a bit.




Why don't we just drop Improved Metamagic and replace it with another Automatic Quicken as you mentioned upthread?



freyar said:


> Edit: returning to the Unseelie Queen for a moment, let's make sure she gets limited wish and geas/quest for spells known, since they are pretty important for making constructs.




Good suggestion!  We should figure out which constructs she'd most often create, and make sure she has the prereq spells.   Iron golem needs cloudkill beyond the two you mentioned above.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 22, 2009)

Item mastery and her UMD skill would also help her get access to scrolls, wands and staves with construct-making spells on them. And hey! Adventure hook.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

Good point!


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

I like the idea of fixing the Faerie Queen by dropping Improved Metamagic and doubling Automatic Quicken.  Improved Metamagic was a nice feat and nice theme, but it just didn't work.  (Upthread, I'd been thinking of dropping Improved Spell Capacity, but this way she can keep that.)

OTOH, I don't like the scroll/wand/staff idea.  First off, she's a high-CR villain, so I'm not feeling the adventure hook.  Also, she's CL 20, so she ought to be able to do this stuff herself, especially since we're going with a "construct master" vibe. Make sense?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2009)

Why exactly are we going for a construct master vibe again? 

Anyway, I wasn't denying that we should tweak her spell-list so she can get some construct-related spells like geas/quest, limited wish and cloudkill (although we could give her wish and mention in her descriptive text that she uses it often to duplicate spells needed for her golem crafting), just that we shouldn't worry about giving her all of them for all of the constructs avaliable.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

You mentioned Craft Construct and the Golden Army?

That's fine, then, all I'm really concerned about are geas/quest and limited wish as those are really common prereq spells.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

Giving her wish to duplicate spells is a fantastic solution!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2009)

Right, I did, didn't I?

If we give her wish (which I like), we should mention how much spare XP she has lying around for wishing with. Probably a pretty high number.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

Excellent idea.   20,000 XP?


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

Works for me.  We should possibly give her a golem or two already, also.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 24, 2009)

We could even make up a Dark Army Golem, if we were so inclined.


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## Shade (Jul 24, 2009)

That sounds like fun!

So which spells should we drop to make room for wish and geas/quest?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 24, 2009)

Drop time stop for wish--she doesn't have that many buffs.

Unfortunately, all of her 6th level spells are fantastic. I'd be most likely to give up mislead, though.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2009)

We could also give her the Extra Spell feat, and simply add it to the 6th-level list without losing anything.


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2009)

Extra Spell sounds good to me.  Where are we with her feats, anyway?  With all the stuff about the Faerie Queen and spell lists, I've forgotten.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2009)

It looks like we've only discussed Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Arms and Armor, Craft Construct, and possibly Spell Focus feats.


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2009)

Ok, I also mentioned Weapon Finesse.  Plus Extra Spell is 5 solidly.  Need to see what Spell Focus would be best, but maybe Spell Penetration & Greater Spell Penetration would be good substitutes for SF & GSF (for variety).


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2009)

It looks like enchantment and/or necromancy would benefit most from Spell Focus feats.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2009)

What about Spell Focus (necromancy) and Spell Penetration?  

Rather than Extra Spell, we could free up a regular feat slot and go with Spell Knowledge (the epic feat which gives 2 extra spells).  Efficient Item Creation may make sense.  Possibly Tenacious Magic, or we could give her a metamagic feat as her last regular one and the appropriate epic feat to go along with it.


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2009)

Good call on Spell Knowledge!  I forgot about that feat.

[url="http://www.enworld.org/forum/4858514-post697.html']Updated[/url].

I think a few metamagic feats and/or the Automatic Quicken feat(s) are the best course for the remaining feats.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2009)

Oh yeah, Spell Knowledge is a fantastic idea.

I'd be a fan of Spell Stowaway for a feat--either time stop if we give it back to her or heal would be appropriate, tricksy and mean.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2009)

Ok, I'm for either Extend Spell or Greater Spell Penetration as the last regular feat, your choice.

For epic feats, I suggest: Spell Knowledge, Spell Stowaway (heal), Permanent Emanation (blasphemy).  For the last one, either Improved Spell Capacity or Epic Spell Penetration or Efficient Item Creation (Craft Construct).


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 2, 2009)

Ooh. Efficient Item Creation. Good catch.


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2009)

Updated.

CR 21-22?

Lussina stands 4 feet 4 inches tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2009)

We have a broken italics in the bane arrows.

Tactics: we should say what spell she likes to store in her kukri.

I'm just going to guess and go with CR 21.

50 lb?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2009)

Agreed to CR 21. 

Either hideous laughter or touch of idiocy in the kukri.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2009)

Updated.

The flavor text needs a bit more revising, as it is currently almost a direct port from the original text.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Lussina, The Dark Queen, holds the Unseelie Court in the vise of her will.  The daughter of the Faerie Queen, her unimaginable outer beauty did not match her envy and ambition.  Jealous of her mother's power, she attempted to usurp the Seelie Court; the Faerie Queen could bear only to exile her own daughter, rather than execute her for her betrayal.  Lussina gathered her followers and founded the Unseelie Court to feed her rage.

Lussina has a heart of ice, serving only herself and weighing all decisions only against her own ambition.  Despite the loss of her beauty to the corruption of evil, she remains adept at seducing new allies in her war against the Seelie Court, though she favors seduction by appealing to ambition rather than lust.  Recently, she has begun to craft a Golden Army of constructs to aid her struggle.

The Dark Queen has no mercy, thinking her mother a fool for sparing her life.  Indeed, she brooks no dissent, rewarding disloyalty and incompetence alike with instant death.  Still, the Unseelie Court continues to grow with exiles from the Seelie Court, undead faeries created in the war, and her own constructs.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 5, 2009)

I thought we were going for something a little less "direct ripoff" than a Golden Army. A Dark Army, perhaps? Ebon Army? Platinum Army, just to be cheeky?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Sorry, I don't know where Golden Army comes from, actually.    We can just drop the adjective, too.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

It's from Hellboy II...great flick.   Awesome two-weapon fighting.  

The text looks great, and dropping the adjective should suffice.

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Ahh, thanks.  You know, I think she looks done.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2009)

I'm inclined to agree.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

We might as well convert this fellow so people will understand where the damage they thought they dealt to the ochimo went.  

*Opawang*
(Dead Spirit King)
Frequency: Unique
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: 0
Move: 12"/18"
Hit Dice: 18 (100 hit points)
% in Lair: 100%
Treasure Type: Unique
No. of Attacks: 2
Damage/Attack: 2d6/2d6
Special Attacks: See below
Special Defenses: See below
Magic Resistance: 20%
Intelligence: Genius
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Size: M
Psionic Ability: None
Level/XP Value: 16,250

The Opawang is neither dead nor a spirit. He is a 2,000-year-old man with great magical power. The Opawang was once the Black Leopard Priest and led his cult's followers against the expansion of the Shou Lung empire. The empire crushed his army and burned his temples, but the Black Leopard Priest escaped to Akari Island with a large number of his followers. There they built his city in the center of this rich land.

The Opawang appears to be a normal man of middle years with a waxy, almost translucent complexion. Muscles and bones can be seen beneath the skin in bright light, and the Opawang's eyes glow with an unearthly radiance when he is angry (similar to the wu jen fiery eyes spell--and with the same effect).

The Opawang wields a number of inherent spell-like abilities he has developed over the years. Some are shukenja spells he used in early life, while others are wu jen spells he has discovered and modified for his personal use. The Opawang's spell use is as that of a 18th-level shukenja.

Spells:
Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
#/Day 7 6 5 4 3 3 1

The Opawang chooses his spells from the following list:
1st Level: deflection, elemental burst (as wu jen), magic missile (as wu jen), snake charm, trance, water protection (as wu jen)
2d Level: aid, commune with lesser spirit, dream sight, ice knife (as wu jen), protection from spirits, vocalize (as wu jen), warning, wizard lock (as wu jen)
3d Level: castigate, cause blindness (reversed cure blindness), dispel magic, dream vision, fire rain (as wu jen), improved phantasmal force (as wu jen), nightmare (reversed dream vision), levitate
4th Level: elemental turning (as wu jen), fatigue (reversed endurance), poison (reversed neutralize poison), protection from good (10-foot radius), quell, snake barrier, transfix (as wu jen), vengeance (as wu jen), wall of bones (as wu jen)
5th Level: air walk, commune with greater spirit, conjure elemental (as wu jen), mental strength, mental weakness (reverse mental strength), possess, slay living (reversed raise dead)
6th Level: force shapechange, harm (reverse heal), immunity to weapons, invisibility to enemies, programmed illusion (as wu jen), whither (reversed quickgrowth), smite
7th Level: compel, giant size (as wu jen), unholy word (reversed holy word), destruction (reversed resurrection), wind walk

The Opawang does not need to study a spell book to cast these spells. He may cast them at will, but is limited to the maximum number of each level he can cast in a day.

The Opawang also has absolute control over the spirits, greater and lesser on the island of Akari. He holds the spirit of the island itself, Harooga, prisoner in his Dead Land domain. All spirits on the island of Akari are uncooperative to those other than the Opawang and his Ochimo (who are referred to as a single being). This is by command of the Opawang.

The Opawang extends some of his abilities to his Ochimo servants, such that they may pass on to him the first 15 points of damage inflicted upon them in battle. This damage to the Opawang lasts until dawn of the following day, when it is healed in full with the first rays of sunrise. (Thus if an Ochimo is slain the day before the Opawang is encountered, the Opawang is healed by the time the PCs find him, but if the Ochimo is slain on the day the Opawang is encountered, the Opawang's hit points are reduced by 15.)

Finally, the Opawang has created a portal beneath his temple that enables passage to the Dead Lands, where his power is increased. Upon entering this domain, all damage to him is healed and all spell use is restored to him. All invaders in his domain lose 1 hit point per round, which is added to his own hit points.

Originally appeared in OA3 - Ochimo the Spirit Warrior (1987).


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

I'm thinking Native Outsider (like a perfected monk) and SLAs based off the spell list.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

I like giving him full casting... but all of those are non-core spells covered in books like the Spell Compendium or Oriental Adventures. There's going to be a lot of paperwork on this one, either way.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Agreed to native outsider.

I also like full casting, as he sounds precisely like a sorcerer (except for spells per day).  As for the spell list, we can fill it with core spells (I see a few there already anyway) and put in a sidebar about using the other books.

I do agree that fiery eyes should be a unique Su or SLA.  

Oddly, there's nothing about what he does with the captured spirits the Ochimo bring him.  Maybe Echohawk can find us something about that.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Alright, you guys have sold me on sorcerous casting.

Perhaps we can use the dragon approach and state that he can also select shugenja spells as arcane spells known?


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

Ahh, are shugenjas divine casters or just have a different spell list?  I really miss out by not having some of these books, and now the stupid PDF debacle means I'm not likely to get them.  Well, maybe there'll be Pathfinder versions! 

Anyway, agreed to allowing shugenja spells, though I guess we may need a sidebar about the noncore spells.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Yeah, shugenja are elemental-focused divine spellcasters, while wu jen are elemental-focused arcane spellcasters.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Stick with 18 HD or follow the "divide by 4.5" rule to get 22 HD?

Base his ability scores off a typical human sorcerer, adding the +1 to one ability score per 4 HD?


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

22 HD works better, since he seems epic enough.

I think he should be pretty exceptional.  So something a bit better, at least on mental scores.  Maybe Con, too, since he's lived so long.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

Sure.  We can assume he's read some of the tomes that grant inherent bonuses over his long lifespan.   We can also outfit him with stat-boosting items and spells.

So how about...

Base Stats (using elite array):  
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 15

After 5 ability score increases based on levels...
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18

And assuming to have read books of Cha (+5), Int (+4), and Con (+3)...
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 23

Look OK?


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Good for a start!  Let's see about getting him some items, too, though.  His mental stats should be up closer to the solar/balor/pit fiend level, don't you think?  I guess maybe not quite so intelligent, but Cha should bump a couple more points, and maybe Wis too.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

He could have read a Wis book, too, if you'd like.

Cloak of Charisma +6, periapt of Wisdom +4, bracers of armor +8, ring of elemental command (air?)?


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Yes, let's give him a +3 Wis book and those items.  Nice!


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

> The Opawang appears to be a normal man of middle years with a waxy, almost translucent complexion. Muscles and bones can be seen beneath the skin in bright light, and the Opawang's eyes glow with an unearthly radiance when he is angry (similar to the wu jen fiery eyes spell--and with the same effect).




Here's the fiery eyes spell...

Fiery Eyes (CA)
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Wu Jen 1 (fire)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute
Saving Throw: Reflex special; see text

This spell causes your eyes to glow with an unnatural fire whose color you determine (from dull red to brilliant yellow), projecting beams of bright light that clearly illuminate a 5-foot-square area to a range of 5 feet. By fixing your sight on one spot within 60 feet as a full-round action, you can cause combustible materials to burst into flames, and though you cannot target living creatures with this effect, creatures carrying or wearing items you ignite take 1d6 points of fire damage and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or catch on fire themselves.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

Wow, kind of forgot about him.

Hmmm, how about this?

Fiery Eyes (Su): The Opawang's eyes glow brightly, illuminating a 5 ft radius around him in bright light.  The Opawang can choose to extinguish this glow or reinstate it at will as a swift action.  While his eyes are lit, the Opawang may cause any combustible material, not including creatures, within 60 ft to catch fire as a standard action.  However, if a creature is carrying or wearing weapons that catch fire, that creature immediately takes X hp fire damage and must succeed at a DC X Reflex save or catch fire.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

Looks good!   1d6 fire is consistent with the usual "catch on fire" damage.



> The Opawang also has absolute control over the spirits, greater and lesser on the island of Akari. He holds the spirit of the island itself, Harooga, prisoner in his Dead Land domain. All spirits on the island of Akari are uncooperative to those other than the Opawang and his Ochimo (who are referred to as a single being). This is by command of the Opawang.




Should we give him a "command spirits" ability, similar to command undead, but pertaining to creatures with the spirit subtype?


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

Sounds good to me.  But he doesn't need to make a turning check (if you mean as a cleric) or allow a save (if you mean as the spell)?

So just put in 1d6 fire damage in fiery eyes?  Sounds OK.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

Yep, he'd need a turning check.  Does that seem appropriate?


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

It's reasonable, but we should give him a very high effective cleric level.  If we want, I could also see justification in the flavor for making the command be automatic, though with a (large) HD cap.


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Hmmm...as long as he isn't controlling the Black Leopard or other mighty members of the Celestial Court, that might work.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

Are deities spirits too?  Yikes!  Let's check that.

I like the tie-in with the Black Leopard, too.  I imagine that the big cat is kind of ticked at the Opawang to be honest.  We need to remember that in the flavor text.


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

Hmm...your question regarding the island serpents resisting his command makes me think that a supernatural compulsion ability might be more appropriate than tying it to turn undead.


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2009)

With all the aboleth stuff we've been looking at, I'm thinking something like enslave, maybe.  Or we could rewrite control undead.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Perfect!

Enslave Spirits (Su): x times per day, the Opawang can attempt to enslave any one living creature with the spirit subtype within x feet. The target must succeed on a DC x Will save or be affected as though by a dominate monster spell (caster level 20th). An enslaved creature obeys the Opawang's telepathic commands until freed by remove curse, and can attempt a new Will save every 24 hours to break free. The control is also broken if the Opawang dies or travels more than x miles from its slave. This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2009)

Let's go at will and 60 ft.  How big is this island, do we know?  That should set the max distance, but I'll say 5 miles in the absence of anything else.


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2009)

Dunno.

I went through Opawang's spell list, and compared to OA and found the following:

The Opawang chooses his spells from the following list:
1st Level: deflection = shield (wu jen 1) or shield of faith (shaman 1), elemental burst =  wu jen 1, magic missile=  wu jen 1, snake charm = speak with animals (shaman 1) or animal friendship (shaman 1), trance = shaman 1, water protection = endure elements (wu jen 1)
2d Level: aid = shaman 2, commune with lesser spirit = shaman 2, dream sight = shaman 4, ice knife = wu jen 2, protection from spirits = shaman 2, vocalize = ?, warning = shaman 2, wizard lock = arcane lock (wu jen 2)
3d Level: castigate = shaman 3, cause blindness = blindness/deafness (shaman 3), dispel magic = shaman 3, dream vision = dream sight (shaman 4), fire rain = fire breath (wu jen 5) or rain of needles (wu jen 2), improved phantasmal force = persistent image (wu jen 5), nightmare = wu jen 5, levitate = shaman 3
4th Level: elemental turning = elemental ward  (wu jen), fatigue  = shaman 4, poison, protection from good (10-foot radius) = magic circle against good (shaman 3), quell = ?, snake barrier =  shaman 4, transfix = wu jen 6, vengeance = ?, wall of bones = wu jen 4
5th Level: air walk = shaman 4/shugenja 4, commune with greater spirit = wj 7/sha 5, conjure elemental = summon monster/nature’s ally 5, mental strength = shaman 3, mental weakness = shaman 3, possess = shaman 5, slay living = shaman 5
6th Level: force shapechange = shaman 6, harm = shaman 6, immunity to weapons = ?, invisibility to enemies = shaman 3, programmed illusion = programmed image (wu jen 6), whither = withering palm (wu jen 7), smite = ?
7th Level: compel = shaman 8, giant size = wu jen 7, unholy word = shaman 7, destruction = not on OA lists, wind walk = shaman 6


So, it looks like he should cast spells from the shaman, not shugenja list, as arcane spells.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

That's fine.  We may need to change some of the wu jen spells to sorc/wiz spells, too, and make an OA underbar.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

Here's what I came up with for the OA underbar.   The alternates can be swapped in if you like them better, or can be used if we give him Extra Spell feats or some special ability that allowed him to learn additional spells over his long lifespan.

Annotations:  (s) Shaman, (w) Wu Jen

Spells: The Opawang casts spells as a 20th-level sorcerer, but draws his spells known from the shaman and wu jen spell lists.  All spells, regardless of source, are cast as arcane spells.

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (6/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7, save DC 19 + spell level):
0—arcane mark (w), cure minor wounds (s), dancing lights (w), detect disease (s), detect magic (w), flare (w), mage hand (w), purify food and drink (s), read magic (w);
1st—elemental burst (w), endure elements (w), magic missile (w), shield (w) or shield of faith (s), trance (s); Alternates:  speak with animals (s) or animal friendship (s),
2nd— ancestral vengeance (s), commune with lesser spirit (s), ice knife (w), protection from spirits (s), warning (s); Alternates:  aid (s), arcane lock (w), rain of needles (w)
3rd—castigate (s), dispel magic (s), mental strength (s), mental weakness (s); Alternates:  blindness/deafness (s), invisibility to enemies (s), levitate (s), magic circle against good (s),
4th—elemental ward (w), fatigue (s), snake barrier (s), wall of bones (s); Alternates:  air walk (s), dream sight (s)
5th— commune with greater spirit (s), fire breath (w), possess (s), slay living (s); Alternates:  nightmare = (s), persistent image (w), summon nature’s ally V (s)
6th—harm (s), programmed image (w), wind walk (s); Alternates:  force shapechange (s), transfix (w)
7th— giant size (w), unholy word (s), withering palm (w);
8th—discern location (s), greater spirit binding (w), surelife (w); Alternates:  compel (s), greater spirit ally (s), mass heal (s), unholy aura (s)
9th—dominate monster (w), time stop (w), wish (w); Alternates:  miracle (s), time stop (w)


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

Impressive!

I don't think we quite want to go with too many extra spells, but maybe one or two Spell Knowledge feats would work.

My main question (not having OA ) is what core spells to substitute for the non-core ones.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

Like so?

Spells: The Opawang casts spells as a 20th-level sorcerer, and can also select cleric spells as arcane spells known. 

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (6/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7, save DC 19 + spell level):
0—arcane mark, cure minor wounds, dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, flare, mage hand, purify food and drink, read magic;
1st—burning hands, endure elements, magic missile, shield or shield of faith, shocking grasp;
2nd—acid arrow, augury, blindness/deafness, scorching ray, spiritual weapon;
3rd—dispel magic, magic circle against good, nondetection, prayer;
4th—air walk, dismissal, poison, wall of fire;
5th— nightmare, righteous might, slay living, waves of fatigue; Alternates: contact other plane, summon nature’s ally V;
6th—harm, programmed image, wind walk; 
7th—banishment, blasphemy, destruction;
8th—discern location, greater planar binding, mass heal; Alternates: unholy aura
9th—dominate monster, time stop, wish; Alternates:  miracle


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

I bow before your spell knowledge!


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

Updated.

I left the alternates on the lists for now in case we decide to use Extra Spell feats.


Since he started life as a wu jen, do we want to have him retain any or all of the following wu jen abilities?

Watchful Spirit: Once per day, a wu jen can reroll an initiative roll she has just made before she knows her place in the initiative order. She takes the better of the two rolls.

Bonus Feat: A wu jen begins play with a bonus metamagic feat.

Spell Secret: At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, a wu jen can choose one spell known to her that then becomes permanently modified as though affected by one of the following metamagic feats: Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Still Spell, or Silent Spell. The spell's level does not change, and once the choice of spell and modification are chosen, they cannot be changed. As the wu jen goes up in level, she can choose the same spell to be modified in different ways with multiple spell secrets. She does not need to know the feat she applies to the spell.

Elemental Mastery: Many of the wu jun's spells are divided into five elemental groups: earth, fire, metal, water, and wood. At 6th level, instead of learning a spell secret, a wu jen becomes master of one of these five elements (her choice). Thereafter, whenever the wu jen casts a spell of that element, her effective caster level (for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables and for caster level checks) is increased by two. In addition, the wu jen herself gets a +2 competence bonus on saving throws against spells of that element. Certain spells on the wu jen spell list are designated "All"; this means they belong to all elemental groups, and a wu jen who is master of any element gains the mastery bonuses with respect to those spells.

Taboos: In order to maintain their supernatural power, wu jen must abide by certain taboos that might seem inconsequential to other characters but are vitally important to the wu jen. If a wu jen violates one of her taboos, she cannot cast any more spells that day. A wu jen must choose one taboo at 1st level, and one additional taboo every time she learns a spell secret.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

Not the taboos, since this guy essentially went against his own deity.  The rest, though, look good.  I'm not sure what element I'd pick, so we could possibly drop Elemental Mastery if he's getting too cumbersome.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

He's about the opposite of cumbersome at this point, so pile on!


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

Ok, based on his spells, what element would you pick?  I'm not seeing anything obvious.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Possibly fire.  But since he's been "studying" for so long, how about this?

Elemental Mastery (Ex): The Opawang has studied magic for countless years, and as a result has learned to master all five elemental groups (earth, fire, metal, water, and wood). As a result, whenever the Opawang casts a spell of one of those elements, his effective caster level (for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables and for caster level checks) is increased by two. In addition, the Opawang gets a +2 competence bonus on saving throws against spells of those elements. This bonus also pertains to spells on the wu jen spell list designated "All".


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

Why not indeed?  Good idea!  How's he looking?


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Updated.



> Bonus Feat: A wu jen begins play with a bonus metamagic feat.




Maximize spell?



> Spell Secret: At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, a wu jen can choose one spell known to her that then becomes permanently modified as though affected by one of the following metamagic feats: Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Still Spell, or Silent Spell. The spell's level does not change, and once the choice of spell and modification are chosen, they cannot be changed. As the wu jen goes up in level, she can choose the same spell to be modified in different ways with multiple spell secrets. She does not need to know the feat she applies to the spell.




So, he gets six spell secrets.  How about...

Extended shield or shield of faith?
Extended righteous might/giant size?
Extended air walk/elemental ward?
Stilled, silent dispel magic?
Silent slay living?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

All that sounds good.

Do we need to decide on shield or shield of faith everywhere?  Or are we making a hybrid arcane/divine spell?


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

We need to pick one or the other.  I'm leaning toward shield of faith, since it scales.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

That makes sense to me.  Shield of faith it is.

He's starting to look good.  Apparently he eats the captured spirits (or absorbs them somehow) that the Ochimo bring him in order to extend his life.  Ability or just flavor?


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Hmm...

The ochimo writeups note "Otherwise, the captured spirit cannot be raised or resurrected, but a break enchantment cast on the ochimo (and which penetrates the ochimo's SR), limited wish, miracle, or wish spell frees it, as does destroying the ochimo. A freed spirit is instantly returned to life in the precise condition it had when captured."

We might need to indicate how a soul can be brought back once it is transferred to (and devoured by) the Opawang.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

Let's just do this:

Consume Spirit (Su): The Opawang may consume the captured spirits brought to him by the Ochimo spirit warriors.  As a full round action, the Opawang may remove all the spirits from a single Ochimo, devouring the spirit completely.  For every X HD of spirits consumed, the Opawang's life is extended by one year.  After a spirit is consumed, the victim is dead and can only be returned to life by a wish or miracle spell or direct divine intervention.  If the consumed spirit is returned to life, it no longer extends the Opawang's lifespan.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Sounds great!   100 Hit Dice?


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## freyar (Sep 5, 2009)

Good, that should keep the Ochimo busy, especially if there aren't many victims on the island any more.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 11 at 25 ranks
Wu Jen Skills:  Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Feats: Maximize Spell (B) plus 8 more  (1 can be epic)


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2009)

Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Spellcraft.  I think all those make sense, maybe nature should be switched to something more "spirit" specific.  It might make sense to give him some item crafting, so what Craft skills would be good?  It's also tempting to add some things like Diplomacy and Sense Motive.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

Let's throw in some Use Magic Device (even if it is cross-class) and maybe Knowledge (history).  Craft (alchemy)?  Decipher Script and/or Gather Information might explain how he learned some of the secrets to his longetivity.

For crafting, I see him mostly making Wondrous Items.


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2009)

Ok, then it looks like

Concentration, Craft (alchemy), Decipher Script, Gather Information, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.  That's 12.  Drop Know (nature)?  Let's drop his class/cross-class skills requirements since he's so old.  We can even give him an SQ for that if you want.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

Since he's unique, I think we can get by without explaining the source of his class skills.

Updated.

Feats: Maximize Spell (B), 8 more (1 can be epic)
Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell...
For the epic feat, Improved Spell Capacity?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2009)

Did something happen to his Enslave Spirits ability from the top of page 28?

I like those regular feats, but I'm torn about Imp Spell Capacity vs Spell Knowledge for the Epic one.  Depends on how many alternates we want to add into his list, I guess.  Ability Focus on something seems like a possibility, or an Extra Spell or two.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2009)

How'd I miss that?    I've now added it.

Ooh...good suggestion on Spell Knowledge!  That would allow us to add 8th and 9th-level spells without explanation.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

Ok, so we have Maximize Spell*, Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, and Spell Knowledge for the epic spell.  How about also Sacred Spell, Repeat Spell, Jack of All Trades, and Spell Focus (x)?  I kind of like Sacred Spell and Jack of All Trades because he's an ancient being who's defied a deity (the Black Leopard), but the other two are negotiable.*


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

That all sounds pretty good, but sacred spell is problematic.



> Only divine spells can be cast as sacred spells.




Since he casts cleric spells as arcane spells, that feat won't work for him.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

Ahhh, you're right.  Ok, let's find something else.  Could go with Reach Spell, Persistent Spell, Energy Substitution (x), Widen Spell, or Greater Spell Focus? Actually, I'd have to go through his spell list to see which of those is useful, but surely at least 1 is.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Is Reach Spell in the SRD?   If so...great!   That is a fantastic feat.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

Divine section of Sovelior & Sage anyway.


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Updated.

Unholy aura and greater planar binding/greater spirit ally for Spell Knowledge?

Evocation for Spell Focus?  His spells are all over the various schools.  Perhaps Spell Penetration instead, since he's dealing primarily with extraplanar creatures, who often have spell resistance?


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

Good choices for the spells, and swapping Spell Penetration for Spell Focus makes sense.


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Updated.

For the attack lines, do we want to give him a weapon, or just list his melee and ranged modifier for spells?



> Finally, the Opawang has created a portal beneath his temple that enables passage to the Dead Lands, where his power is increased. Upon entering this domain, all damage to him is healed and all spell use is restored to him. All invaders in his domain lose 1 hit point per round, which is added to his own hit points.




Do we want to do anything with that?


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

Do wu jen have a traditional weapon?  If he were a wizard, for example, I could see giving him a quarterstaff, for example.  We could give him one of the rods that doubles as a weapon, since he should have some good possessions.

Maybe we can give him a demiplane of some type.  I don't know about adding to his hp, but we could make him immune to negative energy and make the demiplane minor negative dominant or something.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

I'm not aware of a traditional weapon for wu jen.  The class description simply states "Wu jen are proficient with all simple weapons."

The Demiplane is an interesting idea...


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

Let's hold off on the weapon until we do his gear to see if something springs out at us.

What do you think about the minor negative dominant?  We'd have to make him immune to negative energy, which is a little different from the original but not too much.  Another possibility, also a little stretch, is making the plane have wild magic (that he is also immune to).


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

As much as I like wild magic, I think that's too much of a stretch in this case.   The minor negative-dominant idea is good, and since the area heals him, I wonder if we shouldn't allow him to be healed by both positive and negative energy?   Tomb-tainted doesn't seem a good fit here, since the original text mentioned him favoring some healing spells.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2009)

Say we go with minor negative dominant and healed also by negative energy, does he get fast healing 2 there, like a regular character does in a minor positive dominant plane?  We should specify it in his negative healing ability, I guess.

So, want to do that?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

I like that idea.  

As for equipment, we already gave him a cloak of Charisma +6, periapt of Wisdom +4, bracers of armor +8, and ring of elemental command [air]).  Does that suffice?  

CR 21?

The Opawang is x feet tall and weighs x pounds.   5-1/2 and 150 pounds?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2009)

How about a rod of withering?  Seems thematically appropriate, and it would give him a weapon.  Your call if it's too much.

The rest sounds good.  I'll write up the demiplane and the healing ability (do we already have a positive and negative healing ability somewhere?) later tonight.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2009)

Dual Healing (Su): Due to unique magical rituals he has performed, the Opawang is healed both by positive energy (for example, cure spells) and negative energy (for example, inflict spells).  In addition, he is immune to energy drain attacks??

The Dead Lands are a demiplane now ruled by the Opawang.  They are coterminus with the Material Plane at a particular portal in the dungeons beneath the Opawang's temple.  While the Dead Lands resemble the Material Plane in physical, alignment, and magical traits, they are minor negative energy dominant, so all living creatures in the Dead Lands take 1d6 negative energy damage per round, unless they are protected from negative energy.  Due to the Opawang's Dual Healing ability, negative dominant planes act upon him like positive dominant planes on all living creatures, and he therefore gains fast healing 2 in the Dead Lands.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

Great idea on the underused rod of withering!

The rest looks good.

Updated.

Bump treasure to triple standard to account for all his items?

The Opawang speaks Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, and Shou?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2009)

That all sounds good.  Is he done, then?


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

I think so!


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## Nookie (Sep 30, 2009)

Ok so whats next? 

I say Fafnir havent done anything Norse in a while.


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## Clifford (Oct 1, 2009)

Have we done fafnir yet?


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

I don't believe we have...and it apparently has stats in Supplement IV: Gods, Demigods, Heroes (which I don't have).


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

I found the Supplement IV entry via Google...

*Dragons:*
Most of the Dragon's abilities in this Mythos will conform to those of D & D. There are only three types present, White, Red and Green. Some dragons of note are:
Fafnir: This dragon was slain by Sigurd. When its blood is consumed it bestows the person with the ability to understand all types of bird languages. It guards a hoard of a double H treasure.
Nidhug: This dragon dwells below the tree Ygdrasil where it gnaws relentlessly at its roots.
Ofnir: This dragon helps Nidhug in his duties.


So, it looks like we can pretty much stat him up from scratch.  

Fafnir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 1, 2009)

We should also make him a linnorm.  He's probably comparable to a corpse tearer.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

Good call!


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2009)

Well, the corpse terror, in 2nd edition, was pretty clearly Niddogh. Fafnir should be rather less powerful than that. Probably CR 19-21.


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## Clifford (Oct 2, 2009)

Hmm.. So are we makeing fafnir non unique. I think they did that to corpse terror?


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

Despite lacking epic feats and SLAs, corpse tearer is still "epic" at CR 28.  

So maybe shoot for CR 24-25 for Fafnir?


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## Clifford (Oct 2, 2009)

I am in the school of thought that unique epic critter should be EPIC!!


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

Epic starts at CR 21, so we should be good.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2009)

I would prefer "epic" in this case to be 19-21. Still unique. Fafnir wasn't all that powerful in the legends--he was killed with one blow. His only claim to fame over "dragon" is that he had a name.


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## Clifford (Oct 3, 2009)

But how powerful was sigurd? I mean Thor probably couldn't pwn a cr 21 dragon in one blow. But anyway i see you point Some of the other stuff we converted was more powerful than fafnir. I personally would like CR at least CR 21 myself if not a little bigger. This is an epic thread after all


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 3, 2009)

The article "The Vikings' Dragons", from Dragon #182 mentions Sigurd and Fafnir and says Sigurd is the only reported survivor of a fight with a great wyrm linmorn, which would be Fafnir.  This was when linnorms had age categories.

The article doesn't provide stats for Fafnir though or even suggest what type of linnorm he would be.


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## Clifford (Oct 3, 2009)

Here is one breif telling of the myth..

Fafnir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2009)

Let's stretch our wings a little and make a new (and/or unique) type of linnorm.  The legend suggests some kind of curse on Fafnir, which is maybe something we can work with.  

That story really reminds me of Turin and Glaurung in Tolkien, as well. Now I see the professor's inspiration.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 5, 2009)

Since Fafnir was originally a dwarf, I thought he could have some dwarven racial traits.  Some traits he could have are stonecunning, the bonus to Appraise checks (appropiate for a greedy dragon), a bonus to saves against poison, possibly stability, and maybe even the dodge bonus versus giants.  The dwarven saving throws against spells could be apropriate, or would that be redundant with spell resistance?


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Since Fafnir was originally a dwarf, I thought he could have some dwarven racial traits.  Some traits he could have are stonecunning, the bonus to Appraise checks (appropiate for a greedy dragon), a bonus to saves against poison, possibly stability, and maybe even the dodge bonus versus giants.  The dwarven saving throws against spells could be apropriate, or would that be redundant with spell resistance?




Great idea!

So can we all agree to meet at CR 21?


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## Clifford (Oct 5, 2009)

Yeah cr 21 just to get things rolling.

I also like the dwarf stuff. Maybe the Dwarf linorn are his offspring and we could stat out an advanced version for fafy himself.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

If we drop the spellcasting common to many of the linnorms, he could probably have more Hit Dice and be a bit tougher in melee for his CR.

The sea linnorm, which lacks spellcasting and SLAs, has 26 HD at CR 21.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 5, 2009)

Yeah, I was wondering about the spellcasting myself, since nothing in the original myths says anything about Fafnir having magical powers.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Agreed to melee threat, no spellcasting, and dwarven-themed bonuses.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2009)

Same here, he's looking interesting already!


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Since most linnorms are Gargantuan, I assume we want the same here?  Here are some other Gargantuan linnorms for comparison...

Stygian Linnorm:  CR 16, 18 HD, Str 36, Dex 11, Con 24, Int 11, Wis 20, Cha 22
Sea Linnorm:  CR 21, 26 HD, Str 38, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 21
Swamp Linnorm: CR 24, 22 HD, Str 32, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 15, Wis 20, Cha 18
Corpse Tearer:  CR 28, 28 HD, Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19

Since it's melee-centric, we could probably use the sea linnorm for inspiration, but drop the Cha a bit since dwarves usually have a Cha penalty.

So...

CR 21, 26 HD, Str 38, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 18?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Those ability scores you've suggested appeal.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

What type of breath weapon should he have?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Fire with some sort of poison rider. It's pretty typical for Norse/Northern dragons, and it's what I used for my firedrake in the Beowulf article.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 7, 2009)

I was also thinking we should give Fafnir a fear aura like a true dragon.  Oddly, none of the linnorms in MM2 have one though.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2009)

Fire plus poison sounds good for breath, and so does fear, maybe frightful presence as usual for true dragons?  We can be a bit different from normal linnorms.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2009)

That is odd about the lack of frightful presence.  How can linnorms not be scary?  

So...

Frightful Presence (Ex): All creatures with 26 or fewer Hit Dice within 240 feet of Fafnir when it charges, attacks, or flies overhead must make a DC 27 Will save or be shaken for 4d6 rounds. Creatures with fewer than 5 HD are panicked instead of shaken if they fail this save. A creature that succeeds on this save is immune to Fafnir's frightful presence for 24 hours. Fafnir is immune to the frightful presence of other dragons.


Demiurge--it looks like the editors split the poison from the firedrake's breath weapon and assigned it to the bite.

Breath Weapon (Su): 60-foot cone, damage 16d10 fire, Reflex DC 33 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Poison (Ex): The poison of a firedrake causes searing pain as the victim's internal organs burn. Bite, Fort DC 33 negates, initial and secondary damage 2d6 Con. In addition, any creature that takes the initial damage is sickened for 2d4 minutes.

To combine the two, would this work?

Breath Weapon (Su): 60-foot cone, damage 16d10 fire (Reflex DC 33 half).  A creature damaged by Fafnir's breath weapon is also exposed to his poison (see below). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Poison (Ex): Fafnir's poison causes searing pain as the victim's internal organs burn. Bite or breath weapon, Fort DC 33 negates, initial and secondary damage 2d6 Con. In addition, any creature that takes the initial damage is sickened for 2d4 minutes.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

Looks good to me!


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## Clifford (Oct 9, 2009)

Looks Grool to me too. (Great + cool = Grool)


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Updated.

Natural armor bonus?  The similarly CRed sea linnorm has +36, which is actually superior to that of the higher-CRed dread (+30) and corpse tearer (+28) linnorms.

Suggested damage reduction?

Sea linnorm has 30/magic, dread 15/magic, and corpse tearer 20/magic.  The swamp linnorm has 10/cold iron.  I'd actually prefer the cold iron, or maybe 10/epic.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

DR 10/epic would do well to differentiate it.

The MM2 linnorms are really paragon examples of terrible high-level game design. There's a reason I completely scrapped and redid their stats when I was converting stuff out of the MM2.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Indeed!  They don't even follow the dragon rules properly.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 9, 2009)

If the linnorms in MM2 aren't great, maybe we should at the linnorms in the Creature Catalog instead?

(And I liked the linnorms better when they were true dragons.)


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2009)

Looking at the CC linnorms might be a good idea.

Since we wanted to go melee-masher with Fafnir, the higher end of natural armor would make sense.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 8 at 29 ranks
Standard linnorm skills:
Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Feats: Multiattack, 8 more (2 can be epic)
Standard linnorm feats:
Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch
Other feats: Ability Focus, Cleave, Power Attack, metamagic feats


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 12, 2009)

For feats, how about Devasting Critical and the chain of feats required for it?


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

Sure!

That'll give us Cleave, Devasting Critical (bite), Great Cleave, Improved Critical (bite), Overwhelming Critical (bite), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite).  That leaves one more feat (which cannot be epic).  How about Snatch?


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## Clifford (Oct 12, 2009)

Snatch sounds good to me. I was under the impresion that non many norse dragons could fly/


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

You are correct.  That's where the "fling" component of the feat comes in.


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Feats look pretty good.

Of the skills, I'd drop Know (arcana) and Spellcraft (since he doesn't cast).  And I think I'd drop Bluff and possibly Diplomacy to make room for Appraise.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

How about we drop Concentration as well (since he lacks SLAs)?   I'd prefer to keep Bluff over Diplomacy.  

Thus, max ranks in Appraise, Bluff, Intimidate, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim.

Look OK?


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Oops, I was thinking about dropping Concentration and then forgot.  Looks good!


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Updated.

Alignment: Neutral evil?

Would someone well-versed in Norse mythology like to writeup the description and flavor text?


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2009)

NE sounds good to me.  I'll leave the flavor to someone else.


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## Clifford (Oct 14, 2009)

I dont recall ever hearing nor seeing a description of fafnir. Besides his marvel comics description. Many pictures depict him being green in color.

He should be a very stout dragon (He was a dwarf) 

Also perhaps earth tones (Another dwarf thing) Maybe brownish green? Also green is the color of greed kinda fits his curse.

Being a mean melee monster fafy Should Have large claws and or teeth.

I imagine him with a stout flat head More like the tarrasques and less like a dragons. maybe somewhere in between?

And because they are cool, he needs horns on his head and spines down his spine.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

There's a painting I have of Fafnir in mind. Long green linnorm with leonine paws, a crocodile-like head with several pairs of twisting horns.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

Here's a bit more on Fafnir:
Chapter XVII: Of Sigurd's Avenging of Sigmund his Father.

Updated.

I worked up some flavor text based off that, other linnorm descriptions, the Wikipedia entry, and the the suggestions above.   Feel free to expand on it.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

That actually looks pretty good to me!


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## Clifford (Oct 20, 2009)

So is fafy done?


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

I believe so.

Supplement IV: Gods, Demigods, Heroes also had Nidhug and Ofnir.  Are either of those worth converting?

Both are mentioned here:
Níðhöggr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Clifford (Oct 20, 2009)

Isn't Nidhug just Corpse Terrer in disguise , Not sure about Ofnir.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

Dunno.  I did find more stats for Nidhogg in Dragon #110.

*Nidhogg (dragon of the underworld)*
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: - 3
MOVE: 12"/30" (MC: E)
HIT DICE: 44 (200 hp)
% IN LAIR: 99%
TREASURE TYPE: 100% H, R, S, T, V
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12/2-12/5-40/6-36
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapons, poison, and magic use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (80. long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
CHANCE OF:
Speaking: 100%
Magic-Use: 100%
Sleeping: 5%

Nidhogg is the fearsome dragon that gnaws on the Niflheim (Hades) root of Yggdrasil and feeds on the souls of the dead. It is the father of many other serpents in Niflheim which bedevil the dead.

The dragon can fight as a 16 + HD monster with two poisonous claw attacks (save vs. poison at -2 or die), a bite, and a lash with its wickedly spiked tail. It can also breathe one of its two breath weapons,fire in a cone, 9" long and 3" wide at the base, or a cloud of chlorine gas, 5" long, 4" wide, and 3" high. It may use each breath weapon three times a day. Nidhogg can also use two magic-user spells of each level, one through six.

Nidhogg is a serpentlike dragon with huge, membranous wings. Its upper body and legs are glossy black, while its underbelly is a dull grey.


44 HD is significantly more powerful than corpse tearer's 3e stats.


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## Clifford (Oct 20, 2009)

Lesee: Casts spells as 12 sorcerer.

44 HD sounds good to me.

Fire Breath weapons: 24d10 fire damage

Poison Gas: 2d6 con/2d6 con

Stats Maybe like corpse terror: Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19

I was thinking maybe a point more dex, and posibly more Con. 30 maybe?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2009)

Interesting.  Dungeon 149 (Savage Tide AP) used an elite dread linnorm at the base of Yggdrasil (that same adventure also has the stygian linnorm as a new monster as well as a version of Charon).

Given the big HD boost, we should probably improve the ability scores some more.  And we could probably justify boosting the caster level as far as 20th if we want.


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## Clifford (Oct 21, 2009)

Bigger casting sounds good. I don't know if we need more HD. Im definatly for bigger ability scores.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2009)

May I? I did convert the MMII linnorms into ones that were usable for their CRs. The corpse tearer might be a good point of comparison.

Corpse Tearer Linnorm
Gargantuan Dragon
Hit Dice: 48d12+576 (888 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 60ft (12 squares), burrow 50ft, swim 50ft
Armor Class: 55 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +50 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 55
Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+78
Attack: Bite +63 melee (4d6+18 plus energy drain)
Full Attack: Bite +63 melee (4d6+18 plus energy drain), 2 claws +60 melee (2d8+9) and tail slap +60 melee (4d6+9)
Space/Reach: 20ft/30ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, create grand undead, crush 4d6+27, energy drain, spell-like abilities, spells, tail sweep 4d6+27
Special Qualities: Blindsense 120ft, DR 20/ epic and good, immunity to disease, energy drain, paralysis, poison and sleep effects, keen senses, SR 41, undead control
Saves: Fort +38, Ref +25, Will +35
Abilities: Str 46, Dex 8, Con 34, Int 22, Wis 28, Cha 28
Skills: Bluff +60, Concentration +63, Diplomacy +64, Intimidate +62, Knowledge (arcana, history, religion) +57, Listen +60, Search +57, Sense Motive +60, Spellcraft +57, Spot +60, Swim +26
Feats: Ability Focus (breath weapon), Awesome Blow, Cleave, Empower Spell, Great Cleave, Greater Spell Focus (necromancy), Improved Bull’s Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Spell Capacity (x2), Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus (necromancy), Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary, or horde (1 plus 288 HD of undead)
Challenge Rating: 30
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 49-96 HD (Gargantuan), 97-144 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: -

What you thought was merely a decaying old hillock begins to move, and you realize with horror that it is in fact a grotesque bloated creature, its serpentine form covered in gray and brown scales and a mane like dead vegetation crowning its loathsome, toothy head. The beast roars in defiance, shaking the fungus and lichen that grows from its skin.

Generally considered to be the worst of a very bad lot, the linnorms known as corpse tearers are the direct descendents of Nidhogg the Corpse Tearer, the dragon that gnaws on the root of the World Tree of the Asgardian pantheon. They are living paragons of rot and stagnation, creatures devoted to utter entropy working to bring about the End of All Things. Cruel and avaricious, they have no use for the living and no respect for the dead.

Corpse tearers prefer to lair in ancient necropolises, burial grounds and other sites of mass death. There, they have ample access to bodies, which they animate and control with ease. They keep vast hoards of wealth in these lairs, guarded by all manner of undead horrors. Time not spent contemplating destruction or bringing it to bear is spent cataloging and sorting treasure, and woe betide any who dares even look at the treasures of a corpse tearer.

Combat
A corpse tearer prefers not to fight in its home, because it hopes to never reveal the location of its lair. Any potential threat is either spotted by magical surveillance or undead patrols, and the linnorm makes itself known only after the threat is weakened by swarms of the undead. Corpse tearers prefer to fight from the sky, using breath weapons and spells and directing undead to finish off any paralyzed or diseased foes.

Breath Weapon (Su): A corpse tearer linnorm has two breath weapons; it can breathe paralysis or disease in a 60ft cone or 120ft line, whichever it so desires. It can use one or both breath weapons as a standard action. Creatures caught in the paralysis breath must make a Fortitude save (DC 48) or be paralyzed for 1d6+12 rounds. Creatures caught in the disease breath must make a Fortitude save (DC 48) or be affected by linnorm fever. The incubation period of linnorm fever is 1 minute, and the disease deals 2d6 points of Strength damage and 1d6 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Constitution based. Once a corpse tearer has used a breath weapon, it must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.

Create Grand Undead (Sp): Once per day, a corpse tearer linnorm may conduct a ritual lasting one hour, involving a dead body and a black onyx gem worth at least 1000 gp. Once this ritual is finished, the body is animated as a burning effigy, corpse gatherer, deathbringer, dread banshee or famine spirit under the control of the linnorm. These undead count towards the limit of Hit Dice of undead the corpse tearer can control. This is the equivalent of a 10th level spell.

Crush (Ex): This special attack allows a flying or jumping corpse tearer linnorm to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against Small or smaller opponents (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).
A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 46) or be pinned, automatically taking 4d6+27 bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape. The save DC is Constitution based.

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a corpse tearer linnorm’s bite attack gain 4 negative levels. The Fortitude save DC to remove a negative level is 43. The save DC is Charisma based. For each such negative level bestowed, the linnorm gains 5 temporary hit points.

Spell-like Abilities: At will – animate dead, overland flight, water breathing; 3/day – darkness, speak with dead (DC 21), vampiric touch; 1/day – control undead, create greater undead, create undead, etherealness. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma based.

Spells: Corpse tearer linnorms cast spells as a 25th level cleric and as a 25th level sorcerer. A corpse tearer linnorm has access to the following domains: Death, Destruction, Evil, Trickery and War.
Typical cleric spells prepared (6/9/8/8/8/8/6/6/6/6/1/1; save DC 19 + spell level): 
0th – detect magic, guidance, read magic, resistance (x2); 
1st – bane (x2), cause fear*, comprehend languages, divine favor, doom (x2), entropic shield, protection from good; 
2nd – bear’s endurance, bull’s strength (x2), cure moderate wounds, death knell*, desecrate, resist energy, spiritual weapon; 
3rd – bestow curse (x2), blindness/deafness, contagion, cure serious wounds, dispel magic, invisibility purge, non-detection*; 
4th – confusion*, death ward, divination, freedom of movement (x2), poison, spell immunity, tongues; 
5th – dispel good, flame strike, greater command, insect plague, slay living*, symbol of pain, true seeing, wall of stone; 
6th – antilife shell, blade barrier, greater dispel magic, heal, mislead*, empowered poison; 
7th –quickened blindness/deafness, destruction, empowered flame strike, greater scrying, screen*, repulsion; 
8th – empowered blade barrier, discern location, quickened divine power, greater spell immunity, polymorph any object*, unholy aura; 
9th – astral projection, energy drain, implosion (x2), soul bind, wail of the banshee*; 
10th – quickened heal; 
11th – quickened blasphemy.
* Domain spell. Domains: Death and Trickery    

Typical spells known (6/9/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/1/1; save DC 19+spell level); 
0th – arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, light, mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic;
1st – alarm, expeditious retreat, ray of enfeeblement, shield, true strike;
2nd – ghoul touch, glitterdust, hideous laughter, mirror image, web; 
3rd – displacement, protection from energy, ray of exhaustion, slow; 
4th – dimension door, enervation, fear, greater invisibility; 
5th – cloudkill, dominate person, feeblemind, magic jar; 
6th – disintegrate, eyebite, mass suggestion; 
7th – greater teleport, mass hold person, prismatic spray; 
8th – greater shadow evocation, horrid wilting, mind blank;
9th – gate, shapechange, time stop; 
10th – empowered horrid wilting; 
11th – empowered time stop. 

Tail Sweep (Ex): This special attack allows a corpse tearer linnorm to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 30 feet extending from an intersection on the edge of the dragon’s space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are Small or smaller. A tail sweep automatically deals 2d6+27 damage to all creatures in the area. Affected creatures can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage (DC 46). The save DC is Constitution based.

Keen Senses (Ex): A corpse tearer linnorm sees four times as well as a human in low-light and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision to a range of 120ft.

Undead Control (Ex): A corpse tearer linnorm can control up to 6 times it Hit Dice in undead, as opposed to the normal limit of 4 times its caster level.

Skills: A corpse tearer linnorm has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check made to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2009)

Wow, nice!  Well, we can start by dropping 4HD and then arguing about caster level and special abilities.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2009)

Most impressive!

I'd be OK with keeping the bulk of that intact.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2009)

Yes, just a few adjustments:

4 fewer HD.
Fire and acid (or poison) breath instead.
Poison claws vs energy drain bite.
Then we can go back and forth over caster level and particulars perhaps.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

Added to Homebrews, sans breath weapon and spellcasting until we decide upon them.

The poison is Fafnir's as a placeholder.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

The poison is fine, I think, but let's switch it to claws.  

Do we want the breath weapons to be fire and acid or fire and poison?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2009)

Fire and acid sounds good.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

Are we talking a single breath weapon that's half-fire/half-acid, or an option to choose between the two damage types?  Cone(s) or line(s)?


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

Don't most linnorms get 2 distinct breath weapons?  In any case, the original text clearly says he should get to choose one or the other each time.  Sounds like they should both be cones.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2009)

Updated.


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## Clifford (Nov 7, 2009)

Now what?


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2009)

How much casting do we want?


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## pawsplay (Nov 8, 2009)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Yeah, I was wondering about the spellcasting myself, since nothing in the original myths says anything about Fafnir having magical powers.




Well, he did turn himself into a dragon.


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## Clifford (Nov 11, 2009)

I beleive fafy is done PAW


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Getting back to Nidhogg, did we want to tweak the SLAs at all?


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

I don't know that we need to.  demiurge's list looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

That works for me.

Skills: 12 at 47 ranks
Standard linnorm skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Feats: Multiattack, 14 more (8 can be epic)
Standard linnorm feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch
Other feats: Ability Focus, Cleave, Power Attack, metamagic feats


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Wait, first, do we want to give Nidhogg any casting?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2009)

I say yes, although I could understand an argument against it.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm also somewhat in favor of casting.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

Casting is fine, since it is common among linnorms.

Stick with necromantic stuff, like demiurge's corpse tearer, or something else?


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

Mostly the same list.  The only thing I'm not quite sure about is whether we should reduce CL slightly to go with the reduced HD.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

We can drop it to 20th, with little change to the spell lists (short of losing some of the epic feats).


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

Sounds reasonable, but do we want casting both as sorc and cleric or just sorc with cleric spells?  I think I favor the latter, as Nidhogg doesn't seem quite as much of a caster probably.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 18, 2009)

Let's pare back to sorc casting with access to cleric spells. And what domains? Darkness, Death, Destruction and Evil?


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2009)

Those sound perfectly appropriate.


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

Absolutely appropriate domains.  If I get a chance, I may look at paring back the spell lists tonight or later, don't know.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Spells: Nidhogg casts spells as a 25th-level sorcerer.  He can also cast cleric spells and those from the Darkness, Death, Destruction and Evil domains as arcane spells

Typical spells known (6/9/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/1/1; save DC 19 + spell level); 
0th – 9;
1st – 5;
2nd – 5; 
3rd – 4; 
4th – 4; 
5th – 4; 
6th – 3; 
7th – 3; 
8th – 3;
9th – 3.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

Here were the lists from demiurge's corpse tearer to work from...

Spells: Corpse tearer linnorms cast spells as a 25th level cleric and as a 25th level sorcerer. A corpse tearer linnorm has access to the following domains: Death, Destruction, Evil, Trickery and War.
Typical cleric spells prepared (6/9/8/8/8/8/6/6/6/6/1/1; save DC 19 + spell level): 
0th – detect magic, guidance, read magic, resistance (x2); 
1st – bane (x2), cause fear*, comprehend languages, divine favor, doom (x2), entropic shield, protection from good; 
2nd – bear’s endurance, bull’s strength (x2), cure moderate wounds, death knell*, desecrate, resist energy, spiritual weapon; 
3rd – bestow curse (x2), blindness/deafness, contagion, cure serious wounds, dispel magic, invisibility purge, non-detection*; 
4th – confusion*, death ward, divination, freedom of movement (x2), poison, spell immunity, tongues; 
5th – dispel good, flame strike, greater command, insect plague, slay living*, symbol of pain, true seeing, wall of stone; 
6th – antilife shell, blade barrier, greater dispel magic, heal, mislead*, empowered poison; 
7th –quickened blindness/deafness, destruction, empowered flame strike, greater scrying, screen*, repulsion; 
8th – empowered blade barrier, discern location, quickened divine power, greater spell immunity, polymorph any object*, unholy aura; 
9th – astral projection, energy drain, implosion (x2), soul bind, wail of the banshee*; 
10th – quickened heal; 
11th – quickened blasphemy.
* Domain spell. Domains: Death and Trickery    

Typical spells known (6/9/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/1/1; save DC 19+spell level); 
0th – arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, light, mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic;
1st – alarm, expeditious retreat, ray of enfeeblement, shield, true strike;
2nd – ghoul touch, glitterdust, hideous laughter, mirror image, web; 
3rd – displacement, protection from energy, ray of exhaustion, slow; 
4th – dimension door, enervation, fear, greater invisibility; 
5th – cloudkill, dominate person, feeblemind, magic jar; 
6th – disintegrate, eyebite, mass suggestion; 
7th – greater teleport, mass hold person, prismatic spray; 
8th – greater shadow evocation, horrid wilting, mind blank;
9th – gate, shapechange, time stop; 
10th – empowered horrid wilting; 
11th – empowered time stop.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2009)

Daunting.  Let's see, selecting:

0 - dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, guidance, light, mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic;
1 - bane, entropic shield, expeditious retreat, protection from good, ray of enfeeblement;
...


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

Taking your suggestions and whittling down the other lists...

Spells: Nidhogg casts spells as a 25th-level sorcerer.  He can also cast cleric spells and those from the Darkness, Death, Destruction and Evil domains as arcane spells.

Typical spells known (6/9/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8/1/1; save DC 19 + spell level); 
0 – dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, guidance, light, mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic;
1st – bane, entropic shield, expeditious retreat, protection from good, ray of enfeeblement;
2nd – death knell, desecrate, ghoul touch, hideous laughter, web; 
3rd – bestow curse, contagion, ray of exhaustion, slow; 
4th – death ward, dimension door, enervation, freedom of movement; 
5th – cloudkill, flame strike, insect plague, true seeing; 
6th – disintegrate, greater dispel magic, heal; 
7th – destruction, mass hold person, repulsion; 
8th – greater spell immunity, polymorph any object, unholy aura;
9th – energy drain, implosion, wail of the banshee.


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2009)

Woo, forgot about this one!  That looks pretty good.  What else does he need?


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 12 at 47 ranks
Standard linnorm skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Feats: Multiattack, 14 more (8 can be epic)
Standard linnorm feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Snatch
Other feats: Ability Focus, Cleave, Power Attack, metamagic feats

We gave Fafnir...
Skills: Appraise +31, Bluff +29, Diplomacy +12, Disguise +4 (+8 acting), Intimidate +37, Jump +26, Listen +34, Search +31, Sense Motive +34, Spot +34, Swim +43
Feats: Cleave, Devasting Critical (bite), Great Cleave, Improved Critical (bite), Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (bite)


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2009)

Standard linnorm skills plus Climb for getting around on that tree?

Going for the epic crit feats plus some metamagic seems like a good plan.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

Sounds good.   We might also look to Demiurge's corpse tearer for inspiration...

Feats: Ability Focus (breath weapon), Awesome Blow, Cleave, Empower Spell, Great Cleave, Greater Spell Focus (necromancy), Improved Bull’s Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Spell Capacity (x2), Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus (necromancy), Weapon Focus (bite)


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2009)

That's funny, I think demiurge's corpse tearer should have a couple more feats.

Anyway, if we go with the above suggestions we can take his list and make the following changes (or we can just take his list if the necromancy still makes sense):
Drop Ability Focus and the two Spell Focus feats and replace with Imp Crit (bite), Overwhelming Crit (bite), Devastating Crit (bite).
Change Quicken for another metamagic (need to check spell list, maybe Maximize?) since it has sorc casting only.
Perhaps swap out Imp Spell Capacity (one or both) for more metamagic or Power Critical, depending on how it's looking.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

The Epic feats are listed seperately for the corpse tearer, I believe.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2009)

freyar said:
			
		

> Drop Ability Focus and the two Spell Focus feats and replace with Imp Crit (bite), Overwhelming Crit (bite), Devastating Crit (bite).




Yeah, I think that's a good approach for this guy.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Change Quicken for another metamagic (need to check spell list, maybe Maximize?) since it has sorc casting only.




Sounds good.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Perhaps swap out Imp Spell Capacity (one or both) for more metamagic or Power Critical, depending on how it's looking.




I could go either way here.  Preferences?


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The Epic feats are listed seperately for the corpse tearer, I believe.




I don't see them, plus Imp Spell Capacity is mixed in with the others.  If these were 3.0, that might explain things.



Shade said:


> I could go either way here.  Preferences?




Ok, I'm going to say go with Enlarge Spell in place of Quicken, keep one Imp Spell Capacity, and add Power Crit in place of the other.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Nidhogg speaks Draconic, Abyssal, and x.


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

I'd better let someone else figure the CR.  Not coming up with a good 3rd language, either.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

A great wyrm gold dragon is CR 27, with 41 HD.  Based on normal advancement rules, that would make these guys CR 28, assuming all else is equal.  Does that seem reasonable?


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

Okedoke!  Want to do Infernal or Celestial as the last language?


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

The ratatosks he trades insults with speak Sylvan.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 15, 2009)

Sylvan works for me.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> The ratatosks he trades insults with speak Sylvan.



Perfect!


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Looks done.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

I think so too.


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2009)

*Elghonn*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Underdark
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Unknown
INELLIGENCE: Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
No. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 16
HIT DICE: 15 (125 hit points)
THACO: 5
No. OF ATIACKS: 4
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Use poisons, rogue skills, see below
SPECIAL DEFENSES Regeneration, +2 or better weapons to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 65%
SIZE: M (7’ tall)
MORALE: Fanatic (18)
XP VALUE: 15,000

The elghonn is one of the most powerful predators of the Underark.  Not much is known of this legendary creature.  Its name stems from the drow word elghinn, meaning death, for this is surely what the hunter leaves in its wake.  Some scholars dismiss the elghonn as nothing more than mythological construct.  Those actually living in the Underdark, however, know that this creature is death personified; even the drow matriarchs of Menzoberranzan fearfully whisper its name.

Those who claim to have caught a glimpse of the creature can describe only a mysterious being wrapped in dark, voluminous robes.  These robes hide almost all of its horrifying features, though one overly boastful fool claimed to have looked the creature in its cold red eyes.  The elghonn carries a terrifying arsenal of weapons designed to inflict great pain and, ultimately, to kill.

Combat:  The elghonn is a relentless hunter, using all of its heightened senses to track prey.  These almost supernatural senses allow the predator to “see” invisible and astral objects and persons.  In addition, the elghonn suffers no penalty when fighting in normal or magical darkness.

The elghonn is a creature of the shadows; as such, it has a 75% chance to Move Silently and an 85% chance to Hide in Shadows.  It uses these almost constantly when hunting.  Often, the elghonn trails its prey for several days, revealing itself briefly to its victim before melting back into the shadows.

As the elghonn enjoys sensing fear in its prey, it often employs a debilitating poison brewed from several Underdark fungi.  The poison gradually weakens the prey, reducing Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores by 2 points every hour.  The victim must make a saving throw vs. poison to resist the effects of the elghonn’s debilitating concoction when it is first injected (usually by means of a crossbow bolt or other missile weapon.)  Poisoned prey eventually fall to the ground, paralyzed but fully conscious, when any one of their three ability scores falls to 0.

The elghonn is a deadly fighter, and it employs a wide variety of weapons (left up to the DM) in combat; these weapons are usually magical in nature.  One of the elghonn’s favorites is blackadder, a long sword +2, lifestealer.  The elghonn can strike up to four times in a single combat round and can wield a different weapon in each hand.

In addition to its offensive capabilities, the creature also possesses a number of special defenses.  The elghonn may only be struck by weapons of +2 or greater enchantment; normal swords and lesser magical weapons have absolutely no effect on the creature.  Furthermore, the elghonn regenerates 1d6 hp every round.

Habitat/Society:  The elghonn constantly wanders the caverns of the Underdark in search of prey.  It is not known whether the creature has a central lair from which it sets out.  If such a lair exists, it is surely a place of unspeakable evil.

Ecology:  All living creatures of the Underdark exist as prey for the elghonn.  So far, it has never exhibited any preference as to who or what it stalks.  Curiously enough, the elghonn never consumes its prey after the kill; however, dead victims of the predator are always found with expressions of horror on their faces.

Some scholars suggest that the elghonn may be an agent of some dark deity or perhaps even an avatar of some forgotten god.  Unfortunately, no one has been able to substantiate this theory; the last several sages who entered the Underdark to unearth some information on this creature have never returned.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine Annual #1 (1996).


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2009)

The "divide by 4.5" rule yields 27 HD.

Native outsider?

Do you think it has four arms, or attacks twice with each arm?  The text is vague on the matter, and the illustration leaves room for interpretation.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2009)

Let's give it four arms. This would differentiate it a bit from the ELH's gloom, which it is highly similar to. 

Other abilities to consider include:
frightful presence/fear aura
shadow blend/camouflage/hide in plain sight
sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge and other "rogue-ish" abilities
pain-based effects (perhaps a "pain rend" dealing status effects if it hits with multiple weapns?)


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2009)

Agreed to all that, as well as the obvious poison use and probably hide in plain sight.

Since it is fairly comparable to the gloom, we could use its ability scores for inspiration...

Str 32, Dex 46, Con 29, Int 26, Wis 25, Cha 30


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 1, 2010)

The original has a pretty sad AC for its caliber, and I don't see much that indicate their incredibly dexterity, so I'd be content to drop its Dex from the gloom's by quite a bit. Maybe put Dex more on par with Str?


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2010)

That's reasonable.  But we should give it some good AC.  Some natural would be ok, I think, though not a huge amount.  Perhaps some deflection from Cha, since we're going with Outsider.

On the topic of AC, anyone know where the +12 insight comes from for the gloom?  Int and a half?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 3, 2010)

A lot of numbers in the ELH seem to come out of nowhere in order to make them tougher. I'd like it if they at least gave them SQs for it.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2010)

On the fear bit first: I think I prefer frightful presence, but since it just looks like a person maybe a fear aura makes more sense.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

Well, it doesn't look like an ordinary person. It looks like a shadow-cloaked murderer. And anyway, seeing an unarmored person in the middle of the Underdark has got to be unsettling.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2010)

Especially if it's reputation precedes it...

So, frightful presence then?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm in favor of frightful presence. The fear aura might mean it scares prey away before it actually attacks.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2010)

Updated.



> The elghonn is a deadly fighter, and it employs a wide variety of weapons (left up to the DM) in combat; these weapons are usually magical in nature.




Should we allow it to qualify for fighter-only feats?



> In addition to its offensive capabilities, the creature also possesses a number of special defenses. The elghonn may only be struck by weapons of +2 or greater enchantment; normal swords and lesser magical weapons have absolutely no effect on the creature. Furthermore, the elghonn regenerates 1d6 hp every round.




Super-high DR/magic or DR 10/epic?  Or blend in some special material/alignment?

Regeneration or fast healing?  If regen, what should overcome it?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 7, 2010)

DR 10/epic or 15/magic and cold iron would appeal to me. Letting it qualify for fighter-only feats wouldn't net it much, especially since I see it with a wide panoply of weapons. Super-good fast healing (say, 10 to 20) works for me.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2010)

I like the magic and cold iron DR.   Let's go right in the middle of your suggested range for fast healing.

Updated.

Sneak attack as a rogue of a level equal to its HD (thus, +14d6)?

Suggested natural armor?

For the pain rend, have it work like symbol of pain (wracking pains that impose a –4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks for 1 hour )?


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2010)

I can agree with frightful presence, DR, fast healing.  Let's wait to see if there's any must-have fighter-only feat; there might be some in later source books that require fighter levels that aren't tied to specific weapons.

The sneak attack and pain rend sound right.  What AC do these need?  Another +7 to +10 natural?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2010)

With so damn many attacks, I think we should reduce the sneak attack a bit. Say, to a mere 9 or 10d6.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2010)

Hmm, I guess I can see that.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2010)

That'll work.  Let's say "as a 20th-level rogue", which will give it +10d6.

Suggestions for weapons other than Black Adder?   Maybe other weapons named after serpents or British TV Shows?


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## freyar (Jan 11, 2010)

British TV shows for $200!  But methinks we'll need to be subtle.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2010)

If we go down that road, some good candidates (and suggested names) are...  

Doctor Who ("enigmatic scalpel")
Torchwood ("flamestaff", "burnroot", "searcudgel")
Red Dwarf ("dwarfbleeder")
The Avengers  ("avenger")

And my personal favorite British show, Primeval.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2010)

I like Avenger and Doctor for weapon names (why Doctor? Because it ends suffering.)


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2010)

I like Avenger, but Doctor might be too corny for the frightful presence to work any more.   But we can surely come up with something for our friendly timelord.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2010)

"Timelord" could work, perhaps a weapon that strikes out of turn, or has the potential to throw its victims out of the time stream for a few rounds?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2010)

There's a temporal displacement power in Expanded Psionics Handbook that might fit the bill there.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2010)

I like the sound of this.  Excellent!


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

Are you referring to the temporal acceleration power?  I'm not finding a "temporal displacement" in the SRD.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2010)

Yes, yes I was.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

OK, good deal.

Wanna simplify it to remove most of the benefits?

A creature struck by _Timelord_ must succeed on a DC X Fort(?) save or be temporarily displaced from the timestream.  Affected creatures cannot take actions for 1 round, and during this time, are undetectable by any means.  Affected creatures are shaken for 1 round upon their return to the standard time frame.


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2010)

That looks pretty cool.  I like it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2010)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Jan 19, 2010)

So what type of weapon (and enhancement/properties) should timelord be?


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2010)

Well, blackadder is a +2 lifestealing longsword (I guess this is a nine-lives stealer maybe without the 9 life limit).  So perhaps timelord is a +2 heavy mace with the temporal acceleration property you gave?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2010)

How about warhammer rather than heavy mace?


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2010)

I will hammer you into the future!  Sure, a warhammer works for me.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2010)

Warhammer FTW!

Now on to Avenger.  Perhaps this one allows the elghonn to make an attack of opportunity any time it takes melee damage against the source of that damage?  Or maybe it can make a strike of vengeance like the Retribution domain special power?


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2010)

Remind me of the retribution domain (that one's not open?).  It sounds good, though.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2010)

Oops...sorry!

Granted Power: If you have been harmed by someone in combat, you may make a strike of vengeance with a melee or ranged weapon against that individual on your next action. If this attack hits, you deal maximum damage. You may use this supernatural ability once per day.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2010)

That looks good.  But let's drop the 1/day restriction and instead require the attack to be with Avenger, which is presumably a melee weapon.  Perhaps an axe of some kind?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 26, 2010)

I think it should still be restricted. If not 1/day, then three times. An axe for avenger seems appropriate. Or a pick.


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2010)

Let's go with pick, since it's underused and appropriate for its underground environment.

So far we've got...

_Blackadder_, a _+2 lifestealing longsword _(I guess this is a nine-lives stealer maybe without the 9 life limit)
_Timelord_, a _+2 warhammer _with this additonal ability:  A creature struck by _Timelord _must succeed on a DC X Fort(?) save or be temporarily displaced from the timestream. Affected creatures cannot take actions for 1 round, and during this time, are undetectable by any means. Affected creatures are shaken for 1 round upon their return to the standard time frame. 
_Avenger_, a _+2 light pick _that can utilize a strike of vengeance once or thrice per day

For the last one, how about _Primeval Terror_, a whip or sickle that instills fear effects with a hit?


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2010)

Ok, we can do 3/day on Avenger.

Go with a sickle, I think.  Failed save is frightened for 1d6 rounds, hits stack to panicked?


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## Shade (Feb 1, 2010)

That sounds reasonable.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 1, 2010)

Agreed to that.


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## freyar (Feb 1, 2010)

And +2 to go with the others, I guess.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 2, 2010)

Seems fair.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2010)

Updated.



> As the elghonn enjoys sensing fear in its prey, it often employs a debilitating poison brewed from several Underdark fungi.  The poison gradually weakens the prey, reducing Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores by 2 points every hour.  The victim must make a saving throw vs. poison to resist the effects of the elghonn’s debilitating concoction when it is first injected (usually by means of a crossbow bolt or other missile weapon.)  Poisoned prey eventually fall to the ground, paralyzed but fully conscious, when any one of their three ability scores falls to 0.




Magic crossbow for the ranged weapon?


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 2, 2010)

And we can call the crossbow Prisoner.


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2010)

Agreed to the crossbow.  Want to add some extra property to it?  Perhaps it automatically poisons the arrow?

Speaking of which, maybe we should drop the Con damage or it'll be lethal rather than just paralytic.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2010)

Hmm...between the paralytic effect and calling the crossbow "Prisoner", why not just have each hit require a Fort save or result in magical paralysis (ignoring poison altogether)?


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2010)

Perfect!  Probably long duration, considering how ability damage works.  1 day?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 7, 2010)

3/day for Prisoner.


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2010)

3/day is fine.  I was suggesting that the paralysis have a duration of 1 day.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2010)

Ah! Got it. That sounds good.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2010)

Sounds good!

Skills: 16 at 30 ranks
Bluff, Climb, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival, Tumble...

Feats: Multiweapon Fighting, 9 more (3 can be epic)


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2010)

Also Balance, Swim, maybe Escape Artist and Use Rope or Craft (weaponsmithing) (to make repairs)?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2010)

How about Craft (trapmaking)?


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2010)

That would work for me.  In that case: Balance, Craft (trapmaking), Escape Artist, Swim for the last 4?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2010)

Sounds good!   Updated.

Feats: Multiweapon Fighting, 9 more (3 can be epic)
Combat Expertise, Dire Charge, Greater Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Self-Concealment (x2), Track?


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2010)

Those look good!  I especially like getting to use Self-Concealment!  And it really fits, too!


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2010)

Sounds good! I would have liked to squeeze Epic Dodge in there somewhere, but it's got brutal prereqs. Maybe as a bonus feat?


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## freyar (Feb 14, 2010)

You know, I'd say just add defensive roll and swap it for one of the Self-Concealments, but we'd also have to swap in Dodge.  I guess we could change out Improved Feint, although that's reasonably flavorful itself (and dropping Imp Feint would remove some of the rationale for Combat Expertise).  Hmm.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 15, 2010)

No, I like the Self-Concealment and Improved Feint a lot.


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2010)

Let's go with Epic Dodge as a bonus feat. This thing is uniquely epic!  

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: No coins, standard goods, triple items?

The elghonn is 7 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

The elghonn speaks Abyssal, Elven, and Undercommon?


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2010)

Ahh, the bonus feat always works! 

250 or 300 lb?  The rest looks good, and I could only guess at the CR.  20ish?


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2010)

Let's go with 250 pounds.  I imagine it partially composed of shadows.

CR is tricky.  It's significantly better than a CR 25 gloom, but pales in comparison to a CR 26 infernal.  I suspect one of those is poorly CRed, though.

Compared to non-ELH monsters, it compares favorably to the CR 26 Gwynharwyf, but isn't as good as the CR 27 (greater aspect of) Asmodeus.

I'm thinking CR 26 seems reasonable.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2010)

Let's do CR 26, then.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

*Golem, Radiant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (good)
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 20 (90 hp)
THACO: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 6-60
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Death aura
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: L (15’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: Special

The radiant golem is a unique creature that some claim is as old as the races of elves, gnomes, and dwarves.
In physical appearance, the radiant golem looks much like an iron golem. It stands somewhat taller, reaching a height of 15 feet and weighing roughly 6,000 pounds. It has been formed in the image of a powerfully built man with eyes that bum with a cool, blue light. The black body of the creature scintillates with an azure aura that fills the area around the creature with a smell of summer lightning.

The radiant golem is able to speak with almost any creature it meets via an innate telepathic power. This ability transcends linguistic barriers and falters only when the golem is attempting to communicate with truly unusual creatures, such as cloakers or clockwork horrors.

Combat: The radiant golem is even more deadly than its iron cousins. Were it not for the fact that the creature abhors violence in any form, it would certainly be among the most deadly monsters known in any crystal sphere.

In melee, a single blow from its mighty fist inflicts 6dlO points of damage. For the purposes of lifting and breaking objects, the radiant golem has a Strength of 25. The creature is immune to all weapons of less than + 4 enchantment. 

In addition, this golem radiates a magical death auru. All beings who spend at least one hour of any 24-hour period within ten yards of the golem must roll a saving throw vs. death magic. If they fail, they suffer a permanent loss of ld6 hit points. No magic short of a wish can restore these lost hit points. The saving throw (and hit point reduction) occur at the end of the 24-hour period in question. The golem cannot turn this power off.

Magical attacks that are based on electricity cause no damage to the radiant golem, but they do slow it for one or two rounds. All other magical attacks are ignored, save for those of a fire- or heat-based nature, which restore 1 hit point to the creature for every die of damage they would normally inflict. 

Whenever the radiant golem takes damage from an attack, it tries to flee the area. If retreat is impossible, it turns and attacks.  While engaged in melee, it repeatedly offers its foes the chance to break off hostilities.

The radiant golem automatically regenerates 1d10 lost hit points at the end of any round.

Habitat/Society: One can best understand the radiant golem if one thinks of it as an orphan. Long ago, an unknown race created the mysterious creature in an attempt to improve upon the existing iron golems. They used a unique ore found on a lifeless asteroid to fashion the thing’s body and wove magical spells never before crafted to breathe life into it.

Unlike iron golems, the radiant golem has intelligence. While it is certainly not an intellectual giant, it is fully self-aware and able to reason and imagine. Its creators found that the creature was not useful as a guardian or warrior, because it would never take action to harm another creature. By the time they had learned about the golem’s gentle and friendly nature, however, they had fallen victim to another unexpected power-the death aura.

Since that time, the radiant golem has drifted from crystal sphere to crystal sphere in an attempt to find friends. It longs to have companions who do not flee from it or succumb to its deadly presence. As such, it often latches onto parties of adventurers and tries to join their ranks. The golem is helpful to such companions, offering advice, lifting heavy weights, and doing everything a servant might do to make their lives easier (but shorter).

The golem does not know about its death aura, and it will not understand or believe in the aura if told of its existence. Aware that it is almost immortal, the golem simply assumes that living things die very quickly. In fact, the golem often bemoans the fact the fate has made mortals so fragile. All it wants, as it will tell adventurers, is a friend.

Ecology: The radiant golem’s death aura affects not only animal life, but plant life as well. In cases where the golem has set up a home for itself and spent a good deal of time in one area, the entire region is likely to become barren and lifeless. The aura does not affect unliving material, like stone and metal, or once living matter (like a wooden cart) in any way.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Appendix (1990).


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

For starters, I'd recommend boosting this a foot (or more) in height, making it Huge.

I'd also suggest boosting HD to at least 25 (the minimum for a Huge iron golem), but could see going higher.


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

Str should also be more than 25, which is suggested in the text.  I also think the permanent hp drain from the death aura should be Con drain.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Thoughts on the HD?  It's unique, so I could see putting it a bit higher.

Maybe 40 HD?


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

40HD is ok by me.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Damage reduction 20/adamantine, 15/adamantine and epic, or something else?

100 ft. for the telepathy?

Suggested amount of Constitution drain?  Do we want to limit it to long-term exposure, like the original writeup, or simplify it to say 1 or 1dx points per round of exposure?



> The radiant golem automatically regenerates 1d10 lost hit points at the end of any round.




Can it benefit from either fast healing or regeneration, since it lacks a Con score?   If not, we can give it a "rapid repair" ability, like the maug...

Rapid Repair (Ex): A maug that rests for 1 full hour repairs 1 point of damage, so long as it has at least 1 hit point. Rapid repair does not allow a maug to regrow or reattach lost body parts.

A character can assist a maug's self-repair with a Craft (stonemasonry) check (DC 15). If the check is successful, the the maug repairs 2 hit points per hour of rest. Providing assistance to the maug counts as light activity for the assisting character, and a character can assist only one maug at a time. A maug cannot assist its own repair.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2010)

DR 15/adamantine and epic

100 ft telepathy is ok

Per round seems too fast, but adjudicating a day of exposure is tricky.  Need to think about that one.

It can't have regeneration, but constructs can have fast healing.  Fast healing 5 or 6 would hit the average from the original text.


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## Cleon (Apr 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Suggested amount of Constitution drain?  Do we want to limit it to long-term exposure, like the original writeup, or simplify it to say 1 or 1dx points per round of exposure?




I would go for a few Con points per day (1 to 1d3) but make it extraordinarily difficult to heal as per the original description of "nothing short of a _wish_".

Something like:

*Death Aura (Su):* The radiant golem radiates an invisible but deadly aura. Any living creature that spends at least an hour of any 24-hour period within *30?* ft. of the golem must succeed at a DC *30* Fortitude save or take *1d3?* Constitution drain. The damage caused by the death aura is particularly tenacious and can only be healed by [_something difficult_]. Once a creature takes damage from the death aura it can not be harmed again by  the radiant golem's death aura until 24 hours has passed. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Apr 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> DR 15/adamantine and epic
> 
> 100 ft telepathy is ok
> 
> Per round seems too fast, but adjudicating a day of exposure is tricky.  Need to think about that one.




That DR and telepathy looks fine to me, I gave my suggestion for the Death Aura in the previous post.



freyar said:


> It can't have regeneration, but constructs can have fast healing.  Fast healing 5 or 6 would hit the average from the original text.




Yes, I was thinking Fast Healing as well.

5-6 points seems too low, I was thinking more Fast Healing 10-15.

An AD&D Troll regenerates at 3/round, or about half the average of a Radiant Golem's 1d10/round.

A 3E Troll regenerates at 5/round, suggesting a Radiant Golem should Fast Heal about 10/round.

However, we've doubled the golem's Hit Dice so I would think we'd better boost the Fast Healing as well. Either double it to Fast Healing 20, or average the two to Fast Healing 15.

For the sake of argument, I'll say Fast Healing 15.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2010)

Agreed to fast healing 15.  The thing is unique and epic, after all.  

The revised death aura looks a good start, but I'm still a bit worried about requiring an hour of exposure.   Is that continuous?   Can you step out after 59 minutes and be OK?  Does the poor DM have to tally every non-consecutive minute of exposure?

What if, instead, it simply dealt the Con drain upon immediate contact, but it could only affect a single individual once every 24 hours?

I too agree with the tenacity, and requiring something more amazing than greater restoration to fix it.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2010)

Let's go with fast healing 15!

I think Shade's solution for the timing of the Con drain is pretty good!  It's not quite the original intent, but it still penalizes people who hang around it a lot as intended.

Well, greater restoration is already 7th level, so anything more than that is going to be miracle, right?


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2010)

Thus...

Life-Draining Aura (Su):  The radiant golem is continuously surrounded by a deadly aura to a radius of 30 feet.  Any living creature within the area suffers 1d3 points of Constitution drain (Fortitude DC 30 negates).  Once a creature suffers Constitution drain in this manner, it is immune to the radiant golem's aura for 24 hours.  The golem cannot voluntarily suppress this ability.  The Constitution drain caused by the life-draining aura is particularly tenacious and can only be healed by a wish or miracle spell.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Look OK?


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2010)

Seems good to me!


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2010)

> Since that time, the radiant golem has drifted from crystal sphere to crystal sphere in an attempt to find friends. It longs to have companions who do not flee from it or succumb to its deadly presence. As such, it often latches onto parties of adventurers and tries to join their ranks. The golem is helpful to such companions, offering advice, lifting heavy weights, and doing everything a servant might do to make their lives easier (but shorter).
> 
> The golem does not know about its death aura, and it will not understand or believe in the aura if told of its existence. Aware that it is almost immortal, the golem simply assumes that living things die very quickly. In fact, the golem often bemoans the fact the fate has made mortals so fragile. All it wants, as it will tell adventurers, is a friend.




Skills: 43
Max out Diplomacy?  Or put some ranks in Sense Motive?

Feats: 14 (7 can be epic)
It should probably have quite a few noncombat feats, as it is not aggressive.  However, the original text does imply Power Attack and Improved Sunder, at the very least.


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Thus...
> 
> Life-Draining Aura (Su):  The radiant golem is continuously surrounded by a deadly aura to a radius of 30 feet.  Any living creature within the area suffers 1d3 points of Constitution drain (Fortitude DC 30 negates).  Once a creature suffers Constitution drain in this manner, it is immune to the radiant golem's aura for 24 hours.  The golem cannot voluntarily suppress this ability.  The Constitution drain caused by the life-draining aura is particularly tenacious and can only be healed by a wish or miracle spell.  The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> Look OK?




Looks good to me!


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Skills: 43
> Max out Diplomacy?  Or put some ranks in Sense Motive?




I don't think I'd put any in Sense Motive. It seems to be oblivious to its deadly effect on living things, so I doubt it has much understanding of other creatures.

Does the description support an Epic level skill in Diplomacy? I'd rather divide its skills between Diplomacy, Listen and Spot.

14 in Listen and Spot and 15 in Diplomacy?



Shade said:


> Feats: 14 (7 can be epic)
> It should probably have quite a few noncombat feats, as it is not aggressive.  However, the original text does imply Power Attack and Improved Sunder, at the very least.




Power Attack and Improved Sunder do make sense.

Since it tries to flee combat, maybe Run to increase its speed?

It may try to push through opponents to escape, so perhaps Awesome Blow, Improved Overrun and Improved Bull Rush?


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## freyar (Apr 10, 2010)

Cleon's suggested skills are fine.

Same with feats.  I'll need to think about more.


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## Cleon (Apr 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Cleon's suggested skills are fine.
> 
> Same with feats.  I'll need to think about more.




Yes, it's got so many feats that we may have trouble coming up with good ones that represent its non-combative nature.

Perhaps we should think of what defensive feats would suit it?

There's the standard Save improving feats. Being a Construct it doesn't really need a Con boost, but Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will and its Epic equivalents could be of value. 

I can't see that many other Epic Feats it's eligible for that are  non-combat. Most of the stat-boosting Epic feats (i.e. Damage Reduction)  aren't particularly attractive since we can just set those numbers  arbitrarily without spending a feat.

Epic Toughness is useful for a Construct, since it doesn't have many regular ways of boosting HPs. Plus we can give it multiple times.

That's 11 feats so far. We could spend the extra three on an additional three Epic Toughness feats.

That makes the list:

*Feats:* Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Run
*Epic Feats:* Epic Reflexes, Epic Toughness  ×*4*, Epic Will

That would give it a +6 bonus on its Will and Ref saves and another 120 hit points, plus considerable ability to smash through opponents.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Fair enough.  If we think of any better feats, we can always swap out an Epic Toughness or two.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

This thing's modus operandi is making friends, so I think we need as much Diplomacy as possible.  Therefore, let's put at least 20 ranks in Diplomacy so it can take Epic Skill Focus (Diplomacy).  I'd suggest replacing Improved Overrun (I don't find that feat very useful, and it doesn't really fit its m.o.)

That leaves 23 ranks split between Listen and Spot.  We could swap one of the Epic Toughness feats for Alertness to boost 'em further, if you think it's necessary.

The idea of Run for a construct is kind of fun...I'd support dropping another Epic Toughness for it.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

He's already got Run in the list.  Dropping Imp Overrun and replacing it with Epic Skill Focus (Diplomacy) works.  Let's get skills & feats in homebrews and see how it looks.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

Updated.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Seems pretty good!

Should it speak Celestial or just Common?

Someone else should work out the CR.  I guess the draining aura is the main concern there.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

I'd be OK with adding Celestial.

I'd peg the CR at 22.  It's slightly better than the CR 21 mithral golem, but not greatly superior.  The life-draining aura isn't very deadly for that power level.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Ok, does it need anything besides description and flavor?


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## Cleon (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm still not entirely convinced it would have such a high diplomacy skill, but I can live with it.

Challenge Rating 22 seems appropriate.

It should have 380 hit points now it has four Epic Toughness feats.

I got the impression it communicates via telepathy, so it may not know any languages at all. It could have "The radiant golem is incapable of speech, but can telepathically communicate with any intelligent creature within 100 feet."


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2010)

Updated.

Let's keep the languages, but I've noted that he prefers to speak telepathically.


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## freyar (Apr 13, 2010)

Done?


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2010)

I think so!


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Yup, this chap's ready to go out and meet new friends.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

*Generals of the Animal Kings (Greater spirits)*
Tiger Ox Monkey
NO. APPEARING: —————————— 1 + host ——————————
ARMOR CLASS: -6 -8 -4
MOVE: 36"/24" 18"/21" 48'/36"
—————————— (MC: A) ——————————
HIT DICE: 30 36 24
% IN LAIR: Nil Nil Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil Nil Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 2 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-10/2-20 2-12/2-20 2-12/2- 12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: —————————— See below ——————————
SPECIAL DEFENSES: —————————— See below ——————————
MAGIC RESISTANCE: —————————— 80% ——————————
INTELLIGENCE: —————————— Genius ——————————
ALIGNMENT: —————————— Lawful neutral——————————
SIZE: —————————— L ——————————
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil Nil Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: X/27400 X/24400 + 35/hp X/24800 + 35 /hp

There are three principal types of generals-General Tiger, General Ox, and General Monkey. In their natural form they appear as giant-sized humanoid animals of the same type as their name. Each is dressed in the armor, robes, and weapons as befits his station as a lord of the Animal Kings' court. They all have the following abilities in common, usable once per round at will: become invisible, ethereal, or astral at will, shapechange, and teleport (no error). They have ESP, comprehend languages, tongues, detect magic, and know history in effect at all times. They can only be hit by + 5 weapons or better. They have the spell casting ability of a 29th-level wu jen and know all spells of that class. Once per day they can cast a cloud trapeze powerful enough to transport themselves and 1,000 other creatures. They are able to regenerate 5 hit points per round.

General Tiger is most frequently dispatched by the Animal Kings to suppress rebellions or carry out orders of punishment. His mien is so fearsome that all creatures within 24" with less than 3 hit dice or levels must make a saving throw vs. spell or flee in panic for 1d4 turns. He is armed with a vorpal sword + 5 which causes 2d6 + 12 points of damage on a successful hit. He can either make 3 attacks per round with this weapon or use his clawed hands and bite for the damages listed above. He is + 3 on his chance to hit ( + 8 when using the sword). When he appears, he is accompanied by a host of 100 tigers. These tigers are absolutely loyal to him and instinctively understand his every command. General Tiger is extremely proud, hot-tempered, and blood-thirsty.

General Ox is normally sent when General Tiger needs assistance or to aid some particularly righteous human emperor in a great endeavor. Once per turn he is able to crash his hooves to the ground with all the effects of an earthquake spell. He is armed with a mace + 5 which is able to fire a meteor swarm once per day. This mace causes 1 d10 + 9 points of damage on a successful hit. He may attack with it and gore with his horns in the same round. He is + 4 on his chance to hit ( + 9 with the mace). When he appears, he is accompanied by a host of 10d4 gozu-oni, all absolutely loyal to him. Although extremely intelligent, General Ox is not a quick thinker and can sometimes be outwitted by those of clever wit. He is extremely patient and stubborn, never breaking off a combat unless ordered by his lord.

General Monkey is sent on missions which require cleverness and stealth. He has all the abilities of a 20th-level ninja. He carries a rod of lordly might at all times. When he appears, 50% of the time he is accompanied by 10d6 intelligent monkeys (AC 7, MV 12", HD 1, #AT 1) armed with swords and spears. In combat, General Monkey is + 4 on his chance to hit and + 5 on damage. General Monkey is noted for his tricks and pranks and of all the generals of the animals kings is the most likely to challenge or disregard his orders. He is intensely curious and can sometimes be bribed with bits of interesting information or magic.

The Animal Kings only appoint a few generals of each type at any given time. However, should one of the generals be slain, the Animal Kings instantly appoint a new general from the ranks of animals that serve them. As soon as this appointment is made, the creature gains all the powers appropriate to that type of general.

Originally appeared in Oriental Adventures (1985).


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

Shall we start with Monkey, since he is the weakest?



> They all have the following abilities in common, usable once per round at will: become invisible, ethereal, or astral at will, shapechange, and teleport (no error).




I'd like to replace shapechange with the change shape ability.



> They have ESP, comprehend languages, tongues, detect magic, and know history in effect at all times.




Most of those are obvious.  Here's know history:
The know history spell, when cast, reveals the common name, background, lineage, and deeds of any item, creature, or place, should such possess any notable history at all. It does not reveal secret identities, presence of magic, magical abilities, character alignment, etc. If cast on a character, it would tell of his parents, what family he belongs to, and any famous deeds of his ancestors. When cast on an object, it reveals the specific name of the item (if it has one), any notable deeds it was used in, and the name of its maker. A katana could be revealed as the "Cloud-Cutting Sword used by the great hero Akicha Tanokura at the Battle of the Fallen Bridges, having been made for him by the master swordsmith Lei Yung." When used to reveal a creature or item that is disguised or polymorphed, the target is allowed a saving throw versus spells. If this is failed the spell operates normally. The spell has no effect on disguised or polymorphed items or places. When used on a creature, the caster must be able to see the creature in question. When used on an object, the caster must be able to handle the item. When used on a place, the caster must be standing within the grounds of the site.



> They can only be hit by + 5 weapons or better.




Simplify to x/epic and/or chaotic?



> They have the spell casting ability of a 29th-level wu jen and know all spells of that class.




Since wu jen isn't core, simplify to sorcerer casting (with some elemental domains thrown in)?



> Once per day they can cast a cloud trapeze powerful enough to transport themselves and 1,000 other creatures.




Here's cloud trapeze:
This spell allows the wu jen to soar on a magical cloud at incredible speeds. Upon casting the spell, the wu jen gently tiffs into the air on a small cloud and then whizzes away in whatever direction he desires. The wu jen can take one human-sized creature with him for every four levels he possesses. The rate of movement is 10 miles every round. In a single turn, the wu jen can cover 100 miles! Those riding on the cloud feel none of the effects of this swift movement and the ride is perfectly steady and calm, even through the worst weather. At the end of the spell or when the wu jen decides to land, the cloud settles gently to earth and disappears.



> They are able to regenerate 5 hit points per round.




Switch to fast healing, or have it overcome by chaotic weapons and spells?


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2010)

Agreed to starting with monkey and change shape.

Know history sounds kind of like a powerful version of legend lore.  Simplify to legend lore (maybe plus true seeing) or make a unique ability?

I think DR epic makes sense.  A nice hefty value, though that can vary among the three types of general.

Definitely sorcerer with elemental domains.  Should we give them an ability to know all sorc/wiz spells (plus the domains)?

Cloud trapeze could be a powerful version of wind walk (I don't think wind walk is that fast) or we could simplify to wind walk.

The intent is probably essentially fast healing 5, but I kind of like regen 5 chaotic.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

Let's figure out ability scores.   HD-wise, Monkey is close to Manath, the Horned Duke, one of the Celestial Paragons, and Yeenoghu.

Manath's scores: Str 33, Dex 29, Con 26, Int 22, Wis 29, Cha 28
Yeenoghu's scores: Str 30, Dex 26, Con 32, Int 24, Wis 30, Cha 23

Dex should be higher than Str for this fellow.  How about...

Str 26, Dex 33, Con 26, Int 24, Wis 29, Cha 26?



> He has all the abilities of a 20th-level ninja.




Since ninja isn't core, how about giving him the sneak attack ability of a 20th-level rogue, the AC bonus of a 20th-level monk, and some SLAs to mimic some of the ninja's Su abilities?   The acrobatics can simply be rolled into the racial bonuses to skills.  We can note in an underbar that if you are using Complete Adventurer, you can replace sneak attack with sudden strike.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2010)

All that works for me.

Can you think of anything else specific to General Monkey other than equipment (rod of lordly might) and things like org?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

It's not real clear what Monkey fights with.  The rod of rulership, perhaps?

What do you think of the change shape and cloud trapeze abilities I worked up?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2010)

I'd say definitely with the rod of lordly might.  It functions as 4 different magic weapons, after all!

The two abilities look pretty good, though I think we need an effective spell level for the cloud trapeze.  I'd suggest 9th, given the whole 1000 creatures bit.

The original text says, "They have the spell casting ability of a 29th-level wu jen and know all spells of that class."  Do we want to stick to the usual spells known or give them an SA to know all sorc/wiz spells?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd say definitely with the rod of lordly might.  It functions as 4 different magic weapons, after all!




I would suggest giving it a power boost. The other Generals have +5 weapons that decapitate on criticals or shoot meteor swarms, and I think the Monkey General should have something of similar power.

How about it functions as a mundane rod of lordly might in anyone else's hands, but when wielded by General Monkey it's a +5 weapon with a different property for each weapon?

Maybe it can be a +5 thundering light mace or quarterstaff, +5 flaming longsword, a +5 frost battleaxe or a +5 keen spear/shortspear/longspear ?

I'd also have the rod's 1/day SLAs of hold, fear and vampire-touch have a higher DC/effectiveness when used by Monkey, and maybe make them usable more often.



freyar said:


> The two abilities look pretty good, though I think we need an effective spell level for the cloud trapeze.  I'd suggest 9th, given the whole 1000 creatures bit.




Cloud-Trapezing 1000 creatures sounds more like an Epic Spell to me. 

Not unreasonable, considering they are 29th level casters.



freyar said:


> The original text says, "They have the spell casting ability of a  29th-level wu jen and know all spells of that class."  Do we want to  stick to the usual spells known or give them an SA to know all sorc/wiz  spells?




Knows All Spells. You know you want to.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 11, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I would suggest giving it a power boost. The other Generals have +5 weapons that decapitate on criticals or shoot meteor swarms, and I think the Monkey General should have something of similar power.
> 
> How about it functions as a mundane rod of lordly might in anyone else's hands, but when wielded by General Monkey it's a +5 weapon with a different property for each weapon?
> 
> ...




The Epic Level Handbook has a rod of epic might.  Would that work?


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2010)

I think the rod of epic might will work nicely, though we might need to boost the weapons of the other generals in that case.

Epic Spell for cloud trapeze is fine.  And I like Knows All Spells, but I'm not sure Shade does.


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## Shade (Jul 12, 2010)

Shade does.  

It won't need to be a separate ability.  In the past when we've done such things, we've simply added a note to the spells ability.  Something like:

"Spells: General Monkey can cast arcane spells as a 29th-level sorcerer. He knows all spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.  He may also cast spells from the Air, Earth, Fire, and Water domains as arcane spells, and is considered to know all such spells. The save DCs are Charisma-based. "

Great call on the rod of epic might!    I support boosting the others' to epic weapons as well to keep the field level.

Cloud trapeze does sound like an epic level spell equivalent.


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## freyar (Jul 12, 2010)

So do we use the mace form of the rod as the "default weapon"?

Comparing to all the angels we did a while back, his natural armor should be in the +10 to +12 range.  Besides that, I'm not too worried exactly where. 

Sneak Attack +15d6 like a 29th level rogue? Or +10d6 like a 20th level rogue?  I guess we've already agreed on the latter...

DR 10, maybe, though the regen sort of makes it redundant.


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> So do we use the mace form of the rod as the "default weapon"?




Epic Rod is a perfect fit! We certainly need to boost the other's weapons to match.

The _+6 heavy mace_ seems the weakest of the options, I'd go for the _+10 longspear_ myself.



freyar said:


> Comparing to all the angels we did a while back, his natural armor should be in the +10 to +12 range.  Besides that, I'm not too worried exactly where.




Since he's a lowish-level Epic monster I think Monkey should have an AC in the upper 40s. A +12 NA would only give him AC 41.

Maybe +19 NA like a Planetar, for AC 48?



freyar said:


> Sneak Attack +15d6 like a 29th level rogue? Or +10d6 like a 20th level rogue?  I guess we've already agreed on the latter...




How about having him sneak attack at a level equal to his hit dice -  24th level rogue for +13d6 ?



freyar said:


> DR 10, maybe, though the regen sort of makes it redundant.




I'd go for DR 15. 

Solars have DR 15/epic and evil and are in more-or-less the same power grade as the Monkey General.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2010)

The solar has only AC 35, so I'd rather stick to the lower 40s.  DR 15 is ok, though.


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## Cleon (Jul 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> The solar has only AC 35, so I'd rather stick to the lower 40s.  DR 15 is ok, though.




I was basing my target AC on some of the human-shaped Epic Level Monsters, since I reckon the Monkey General will end up with a CR in the upper 20s, it being a 29th level spell-caster and all.

e.g.:

Hunefer - CR 25, AC 52, HD50d12
Lavawight - CR 23, AC 46, HD 32d12
LeShay - CR 28, AC 52, HD50d6+650
Winterwight - CR 23, AC 46, HD 32d12
Worm That Walks - CR 26, AC 47, HD 23d8+49 (23rd level Wizard)

Going by those numbers I reckoned the Monkey General ought to have an AC around the same level as The Worm, Winterwight and Lavawight.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2010)

Well, it's maybe not a bad comparison to the worm that walks.  Ok, how about aiming for AC 46?


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, it's maybe not a bad comparison to the worm that walks.  Ok, how about aiming for AC 46?




I'd think it's a fair bit tougher than a Worm that Walks - 6 more spellcasting levels, Outsider BAB and saves, and its role as a "super magic ninja" would suggest it should be tougher in defense than a Worm which I think would follow the traditional spellcaster tactic of keeping their distance and chucking spells.

That makes me feel an Armour Class a bit higher than the Worm is in order, something like AC 48-50.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2010)

Oof, before we were comparing to the solar.  Let's wait till Shade gets back to settle this.


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Oof, before we were comparing to the solar.  Let's wait till Shade gets back to settle this.




Sorry, I can see I might have confused the issue a bit. Should have mentioned the other Epic critters I was basing the comparison on.


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2010)

For AC, I've found it best to compare epic-CR monsters to the most similar creatures (even those not of the Epic Level Handbook).

In this case, I think the solar is an apt comparison, as are the lower-CR celestial paragons:

Solar: 35 (-1 size, +5 Dex, +21 natural)
Manath:  42 (+9 Dex, +6 natural, +9 deflection, +9 insight)
Barachiel: 42 (-1 size, +12 Dex, +7 natural, +9 deflection, +5 insight)
Kharash: 41 (-1 size, +11 Dex, +5 natural, +7 deflection, +9 insight)

Note that the paragons have deflection equal to Cha and insight equal to Wis.  We've already got a Wis bonus here, but I could see adding the Cha-based deflection too.


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## Cleon (Jul 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> For AC, I've found it best to compare epic-CR monsters to the most similar creatures (even those not of the Epic Level Handbook).
> 
> In this case, I think the solar is an apt comparison, as are the lower-CR celestial paragons:
> 
> ...




So what natural armour would you like?

If we give it the Wis and Cha-based AC bonuses as well as Dex it'll get AC37 from those alone [-1 size, +11 Dex, +8 deflection, +9 insight].

If we give it a +10-12 NA like Freyar proposed earlier we'd end out with an AC of 47-49, which is basically the same as the AC48 I proposed earlier except derived by a different means (deflection instead of higher NA).

We could give it the same natural armour as a half-Celestial Dire Ape (NA +5) to give it AC42.

I'd be OK with that.


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2010)

That works for me!


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2010)

Sounds good!

I guess he could use an update.  On the issue of sneak attacks, I'm leaning toward the value +10d6 like the 20th level rogue, since we have him gaining 20th level ninja abilities in the oriental adventures underbar.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

That's fine, or we could simply change the underbar to state "24th-level ninja".


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's fine, or we could simply change the underbar to state "24th-level ninja".




I'm content with 20th level roguery. Wouldn't want to overdo it.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2010)

Since he knows all sorc/wiz spells (plus some domains!), he doesn't need the spells known table.  

Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use Rope?  That could probably use a little tweaking.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Since he knows all sorc/wiz spells (plus some domains!), he doesn't need the spells known table.
> 
> Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use Rope?  That could probably use a little tweaking.




That's looking good.

I'd have picked Use Magic Device instead of Use Rope.

Does the Monkey General need Escape Artist? He can just change into a Fine sized monkey to slip out of bonds and through gaps, or cast _freedom of movement_ on himself.

I'd swap Escape Artist for something else. Maybe a germane Knowledge skill?


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2010)

Let's retain Use Rope, but replace Escape Artist with UMD.  We probably need at least Knowledge (the planes), too.  Replace Disguise (or pilfer ranks from it), since he can simply change shape to go incognito?


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's retain Use Rope, but replace Escape Artist with UMD.  We probably need at least Knowledge (the planes), too.  Replace Disguise (or pilfer ranks from it), since he can simply change shape to go incognito?




No, let's swap Balance for Knowledge (planes). The Monkey General has perfect flight, so he won't need to use Balance very often!

That would make it:

Concentration, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Hide, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand,  Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2010)

Good point!   Updated.


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## freyar (Jul 25, 2010)

Dropping Escape Artist and Balance is fine with me.  UMD is also slightly limited, though, since he's already a sorcerer (with all s/w spells!).  I guess Disguise and Open Lock are also a bit silly given the spells bit, but I'd have trouble replacing all three (or really any) of those.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> Dropping Escape Artist and Balance is fine with me.  UMD is also slightly limited, though, since he's already a sorcerer (with all s/w spells!).  I guess Disguise and Open Lock are also a bit silly given the spells bit, but I'd have trouble replacing all three (or really any) of those.




Yes, I did worry about that. It'll help the General use non-wizard magic items though, which should be handy.

I'd like to keep the Disguise and Open Lock, since (a) all the disguise spells mostly give a bonus to Disguise checks, so it'd help to have a good skill to build that on, and (b) there's a good chance it'll run into a magic-proof lock or a creature with _true seeing_, in which case the skill'll come in handy.


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## Shade (Jul 26, 2010)

So we're OK with what we've got?

Shall we move on to feats?

Feats: 9 (2 can be epic)
I'd like to use Deadly Precision here, since we so seldom have a chance to use it.  Maybe Improved Sneak Attack as one of the epic feats?


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## freyar (Jul 27, 2010)

You know, maybe he could use some Search for spy missions.

Ok, then:

Deadly Precision, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, ?  Maybe swap out the Whirlwind Attack chain for metamagic stuff?


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> You know, maybe he could use some Search for spy missions.




Search would be appropriate too, but what skill would you swap it for?



freyar said:


> Ok, then:
> 
> Deadly Precision, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, ?  Maybe swap out the Whirlwind Attack chain for metamagic stuff?




Yes, I'm not that enamoured of the Whirlwind Attack chain either.

I'm fancying Improved Initiative and Dire Charge.

Hold The Line is tempting too...

How about Quicken Spell, to allow them to pick Automatic Quicken Spell as their 27HD feat.


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## Shade (Jul 27, 2010)

Agreed with all that, although I'd like to work in Flyby Attack, too.

How about poaching half the Disguise ranks for Search?


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2010)

Disguise ranks are a good place to get Search ranks.

Deadly Precision, Combat Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Hold the Line, Quicken Spell, Improved Initiative, Maximize Spell, Improved Sneak Attack, Automatic Quicken Spell?


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Disguise ranks are a good place to get Search ranks.




I'd rather give them full ranks in Search and pay for it by halving Disguise and Sleight of Hand.



freyar said:


> Deadly Precision, Combat Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Hold the Line, Quicken Spell, Improved Initiative, Maximize Spell, Improved Sneak Attack, Automatic Quicken Spell?




We can't give it Automatic Quicken Spell because that requires 30 ranks in Spellcraft.

How about Sneak Attack of Opportunity?

That would require the General have a rogue's Opportunist special ability, but I was assuming it would get that with a bunch of other features of a 20th level rogue.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather give them full ranks in Search and pay for it by halving Disguise and Sleight of Hand.




I'd rather not halve Sleight of Hand.  How about halving Concentration?  It should still have more than enough ranks to cast in battle without worry.



Cleon said:


> How about Sneak Attack of Opportunity?
> 
> That would require the General have a rogue's Opportunist special ability, but I was assuming it would get that with a bunch of other features of a 20th level rogue.




I had considered that feat, but didn't mention it for that very reason.  However, I'd be quite happy to give it opportunist and a few other high-level rogue abilities.  Defensive roll?   Crippling strike?


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd rather not halve Sleight of Hand.  How about halving Concentration?  It should still have more than enough ranks to cast in battle without worry.
> 
> I had considered that feat, but didn't mention it for that very reason.  However, I'd be quite happy to give it opportunist and a few other high-level rogue abilities.  Defensive roll?   Crippling strike?




Oh heck, why not just say it has all the class features of a 20th level rogue. That would give the General 4 rogue special abilities - Crippling Strike, Improved Evasion, Opportunist, Slippery Mind?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2010)

I can go for that.  In the OA underbar, give him all the class features of a 20th level ninja, instead of just sudden strike, in that case.  Maybe mention alternate feats, too.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2010)

All sounds good.  In that case, care to revise the chosen feats, since it now qualifies for additional epic feats due to those class features?


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## Cleon (Jul 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> All sounds good.  In that case, care to revise the chosen feats, since it now qualifies for additional epic feats due to those class features?




Well Dexterous Fortitude or Dexterous Will would only give it +2 or +3 on one save per round. It'd be better off just getting Epic Fortitude or Epic Will.

General Monkey doesn't have the skill or stat prereqs for Self-Concealment or Epic Dodge.

Crippling Strike seems the only Rogue-style Epic Feat that seems useful.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2010)

I'd swap out Automatic Quicken for Sneak Attack of Opportunity now.   I'd also be ok with swapping out either of the metamagic feats, but those aren't epic.


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd swap out Automatic Quicken for Sneak Attack of Opportunity now.   I'd also be ok with swapping out either of the metamagic feats, but those aren't epic.




Crippling Strike seems far more effective than Improved Sneak Attack, should we swap those around?


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2010)

That could work too.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> That could work too.




So we're now talking Combat Reflexes, Crippling Strike, Deadly Precision, Flyby Attack, Hold the Line, Improved Initiative, Maximize Spell,  Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Quicken  Spell.

Does that suit you?

It looks pretty good to me.


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2010)

It's good for me if Shade agrees.


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> It's good for me if Shade agrees.




Let's leave the feats there for the time being then.

We did agree on "Spells: General Monkey can cast arcane spells as a 29th-level sorcerer.  He knows all spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.  He may also  cast spells from the Air, Earth, Fire, and Water domains as arcane  spells, and is considered to know all such spells. The save DCs are  Charisma-based." so we don't really need a Sorcerer Spells Known list.

I'm wondering about adding the Liberation Domain to General Monkey's four elemental Domains. Freedom of movement is what Monkey's all about.

Revising...

*Spells:* General Monkey can cast arcane spells as a 29th-level sorcerer.  He knows all spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.  He may also  cast spells from the Air, Earth, Fire, Liberation and Water domains as arcane  spells, and is considered to know all such spells. The save DCs are  Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2010)

I agree we don't need the spells known list; I think Shade just hasn't updated him since then.  

Well, he can cast freedom without that domain since it's a sorc spell, but I don't mind adding the domain if we like.


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> I agree we don't need the spells known list; I think Shade just hasn't updated him since then.
> 
> Well, he can cast freedom without that domain since it's a sorc spell, but I don't mind adding the domain if we like.




Yes, but that's a 9th level spell and is instantaneous, it's not much use if you want something that lasts a few round (or hours).

A _freedom of movement_ has a 10 min/lvl duration and is very handy against webs and grapplers, but it isn't on the sorcerer/wizard list. Besides, Liberation's _remove fear/paralysis/curse_ are all useful things to have, too.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2010)

Fair enough.  Let's see if we can get Shade to agree to that.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

You can.  

Updated.



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> So we're now talking Combat Reflexes, Crippling Strike, Deadly Precision, Flyby Attack, Hold the Line, Improved Initiative, Maximize Spell, Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Quicken Spell.




Two issues here:   Quicken Spell is utterly useless to him.  Was that a holdover from considering Automatic Quicken Spell?  Crippling strike is a rogue special ability, not a feat.  Did you mean Lingering Damage, which has crippling strike as a prereq?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

Well, I was thinking of Lingering Damage, even if Cleon wasn't. 

How about Silent Spell instead of Quicken Spell, for when General Monkey needs to be sneaky?


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Two issues here:   Quicken Spell is utterly useless to him.  Was that a holdover from considering Automatic Quicken Spell?  Crippling strike is a rogue special ability, not a feat.  Did you mean Lingering Damage, which has crippling strike as a prereq?




Yes, it was a holdover from AutoQuickSpell and I meant Lingering Damage.

Silent Spell sounds a good substitute. (If only you could hear it!)


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Updated.

Environment: Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia?  (Like the duruchu'lin?.  Note the Spirit World in the underbar)



> When he appears, 50% of the time he is accompanied by 10d6 intelligent monkeys (AC 7, MV 12", HD 1, #AT 1) armed with swords and spears.




Organization: Solitary or x (General Monkey plus 10-60 awakened monkeys)?

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: Triple standard (excluding combat gear)?

General Monkey stands x feet tall and weighs x pounds.



> In their natural form they appear as giant-sized humanoid animals of the same type as their name.




Since it is large, base it off a dire ape?
A dire ape stands about 9 feet tall and weighs from 800 to 1,200 pounds.

General Monkey speaks x.
Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, and Sylvan?


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Environment: Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia?  (Like the duruchu'lin?.  Note the Spirit World in the underbar)




I'm OK with that.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or x (General Monkey plus 10-60 awakened monkeys)?




A standard awakened monkey isn't going to be much help to General Monkey!

How about high-level awakened monkey rogues or awakened dire ape fighters?

We could also add the behemoth gorilla.

Something like this:

Organization: Solitary or gang (General Monkey plus 10-60 simian monsters of CR 18-19 such as 18th level awakened monkey rogues, 15th level awakened dire ape fighters or behemoth gorillas)



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x




He's a 29th level sorcerer with all the spells. CR needs to be at least 30.



Shade said:


> Treasure: Triple standard (excluding combat gear)?
> 
> Since it is large, base it off a dire ape?
> A dire ape stands about 9 feet tall and weighs from 800 to 1,200 pounds.
> ...




That's all fine by.


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

That org looks like a good start.

The CR is a bit tricky.  The spellcasting levels beyond 20 don't add much, though.  If we compare him to the archfiends and celestial paragons, he falls closer to the CR 24-25 range.  If you think it's necessary to lower the spellcasting level to 20th to make this work, I'm all for it.

This will also allow Tiger to be closer to Asmodeus and Demogorogon and the like, rather than eclipse them.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> That org looks like a good start.
> 
> The CR is a bit tricky.  The spellcasting levels beyond 20 don't add much, though.  If we compare him to the archfiends and celestial paragons, he falls closer to the CR 24-25 range.  If you think it's necessary to lower the spellcasting level to 20th to make this work, I'm all for it.
> 
> This will also allow Tiger to be closer to Asmodeus and Demogorogon and the like, rather than eclipse them.




Hmm, I guess he doesn't have all the magic geegaws that make a 29th level sorcerer so nasty, so I can go along with cutting him down to CR 24.

After all, the other two generals are supposed to be tougher, so we have to leave something to aim for!


----------



## freyar (Aug 7, 2010)

Hmmm, is he pretty much done now?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, is he pretty much done now?




Once we agree on the CR we've got General Monkey's stats figured...

Then we've only got the description, flavour text or tactics...

...and working out stats for the 18th level awakened monkey rogues and 15th level awakened dire ape fighters.


----------



## Shade (Aug 9, 2010)

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2010)

Looks like we're ready for the next one!


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks like we're ready for the next one!




But what about the monkey rogues and dire ape fighters? 

I guess I'll have to stat them up myself.

*Ahem*

The stats look fine, the only error I noticed is a "reknown" instead of "renowned" in the flavour text.


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## Shade (Aug 10, 2010)

Yeah, that barrel of monkeys sound less fun than a...well, you know.

I'll fix the "reknown".

Here's the next toughest...

*Tiger* 
NO. APPEARING: —————————— 1 + host ——————————
ARMOR CLASS: -6 
MOVE: 36"/24" —————————— (MC: A) ——————————
HIT DICE: 30 
% IN LAIR: Nil 
TREASURE TYPE: Nil 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-10/2-20 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: —————————— See below ——————————
SPECIAL DEFENSES: —————————— See below ——————————
MAGIC RESISTANCE: —————————— 80% ——————————
INTELLIGENCE: —————————— Genius ——————————
ALIGNMENT: —————————— Lawful neutral——————————
SIZE: —————————— L ——————————
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil 
LEVEL/XP VALUE: X/27400 

General Tiger is most frequently dispatched by the Animal Kings to suppress rebellions or carry out orders of punishment. His mien is so fearsome that all creatures within 24" with less than 3 hit dice or levels must make a saving throw vs. spell or flee in panic for 1d4 turns. He is armed with a vorpal sword + 5 which causes 2d6 + 12 points of damage on a successful hit. He can either make 3 attacks per round with this weapon or use his clawed hands and bite for the damages listed above. He is + 3 on his chance to hit ( + 8 when using the sword). When he appears, he is accompanied by a host of 100 tigers. These tigers are absolutely loyal to him and instinctively understand his every command. General Tiger is extremely proud, hot-tempered, and blood-thirsty.


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, that barrel of monkeys sound less fun than a...well, you know.
> 
> I'll fix the "reknown".




I've done some rough calculations and it seems an awakened monkey rogue isn't very effective as an 18th level rogue - they simply don't have the damage output or hit points to be very effective. They work much better as Wisdom-based spellcasters (Druid is a good pick, since they can just wildshape when they need to melee). An awakened dire ape makes a pretty good combat rogue, though.

So, I suggest altering the Organisation line to:

*Organization:* Solitary or gang (General Monkey plus 10-60 simian monsters of CR 18-19 such as 18th-level awakened monkey druids, 15th-level awakened dire ape rogues and fighters, or behemoth gorillas)


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Here's the next toughest...
> 
> *Tiger*
> NO. APPEARING: —————————— 1 + host ——————————
> ...




We're doing them in order of toughness? I thought we were doing them alphabetically.

Anyhows.

30 Hit Dice Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Lawful)

Their +3/+8 Strength translates to AD&D Str 20 or Stone Giant strength, which are Strength 27 in 3E. That seems a little low, since it's only 1 point higher than General Monkey's Str 26.

The SRD Tiger has a Strength two points higher than the SRD Ape, and the Dire Tiger has a Strength five higher.

The Dire Tiger seems a better model, so shall we give General Tiger Str 31?

Comparing a Dire Tiger's other stats its Dexterity is the same as a Dire Ape but its Constitution is three higher, its mental stats are the same except for Charisma, which is three higher.

Applying those th General Monkey we get:

General Tiger: Str 31, Dex 33, Con 29, Int 24, Wis 29, Cha 29

Since General Monkey is a rogue-equivalent and Tiger is more a direct fighter, I think he would have a higher Dex than Tiger, so I'd cut a few points off there and tweak his Strength and Constitution up a bit, something like:

*General Tiger:* Str 33, Dex 30, Con 30, Int 24, Wis 29, Cha 29

Weapon-wise, the original has a _+5 vorpal sword_. Is that nasty enough or do we want to add other weapon qualities - how about _axiomatic_ and _ghost touch_?


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2010)

Abilities look fine.  

As for the weapon, the Monkey's rod of epic might costs 4,293,432 gp.  Meanwhile, a +5 vorpal sword is only worth 200,000 gp, so maybe that's not enough.  (Strangely, the epic rules list a +10 weapon as 2,000,000 gp; everything from +6 up is 10x bigger in the epic rules, so I don't know what to make of the prices for +11 and higher weapons!)  We could easily add axiomatic and ghost touch, I think, or maybe add speed.  If you look at the Quarterstaff of Alacrity in the epic rules, it's not that expensive, so it's possible that we could add some "specials" too.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

Since he's not focused on stealth, we could also give him some pretty sweet armor to help balance his gear to Monkey's.


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Since he's not focused on stealth, we could also give him some pretty sweet armor to help balance his gear to Monkey's.



Oooh, nice idea.  

Anyone know about that discrepancy in weapon pricing?


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Abilities look fine.
> 
> As for the weapon, the Monkey's rod of epic might costs 4,293,432 gp.  Meanwhile, a +5 vorpal sword is only worth 200,000 gp, so maybe that's not enough.  (Strangely, the epic rules list a +10 weapon as 2,000,000 gp; everything from +6 up is 10x bigger in the epic rules, so I don't know what to make of the prices for +11 and higher weapons!)  We could easily add axiomatic and ghost touch, I think, or maybe add speed.  If you look at the Quarterstaff of Alacrity in the epic rules, it's not that expensive, so it's possible that we could add some "specials" too.




In that case let's lay on the nasties!

Since Tiger's tougher than Monkey, I reckon we should give him a bigger magic item budget. 6 to 8 million gp or so?

That's a +14 weapon, a +14 armour or +10 armour and +10 shield (I prefer the shield & armour) and maybe a couple of million worth of Epic auxiliary magic items.

Do we want to make these lootable goodies, or supernatural attributes that vanish if Tiger is slain?


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

Lootable, I think.  That's what we did with Mr. General Monkey (triple standard not including combat gear).  Definitely armor plus shield.

I kind of like making the weapon a +5 vorpal longsword of speed, but that's only +13 so far.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Lootable, I think.  That's what we did with Mr. General Monkey (triple standard not including combat gear).  Definitely armor plus shield.
> 
> I kind of like making the weapon a +5 vorpal longsword of speed, but that's only +13 so far.




Don't forget the *ghost touch*. Don't want those pesky incorporeal targets escaping!

Although General Tiger can easily cast _haste_ on himself to get an extra attack, so something other than *speed *may be better.

Similarly *keen *might be a waste of a +1 since we can have Tiger select the Improved Critical feat.

_*Axiomatic*_?
*Throwing and Returning*? (just imagine the look on the opponent's head when they're decapitated from 50 feet away )
_*Merciful*_? (So Tiger can knock out folks it needs to capture.)

_*Vicious*_? General Tiger would only take nonlethal damage from the rebound, since his weapon isn't Chaotic aligned.

So how about a *+5 axiomatic ghost touch vicious vorpal longsword*.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

Oh, and did you see my proposal to change General Monkey's monkey followers to druids and make the dire apes rogues & fighters?



Cleon said:


> I've done some rough calculations and it seems an awakened monkey rogue isn't very effective as an 18th level rogue - they simply don't have the damage output or hit points to be very effective. They work much better as Wisdom-based spellcasters (Druid is a good pick, since they can just wildshape when they need to melee). An awakened dire ape makes a pretty good combat rogue, though.
> 
> So, I suggest altering the Organisation line to:
> 
> *Organization:* Solitary or gang (General Monkey plus 10-60 simian monsters of CR 18-19 such as 18th-level awakened monkey druids, 15th-level awakened dire ape rogues or fighters, and behemoth gorillas)


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2010)

Yes, the org looks good.

Is that weapon really only +14?


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yes, the org looks good.
> 
> Is that weapon really only +14?




Yup.

*+5 *[5] *axiomatic *[2] *ghost touch *[1] *vicious *[1] *vorpal *[5] *longsword*. 	

5+2+1+1+5 = 14.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

Added to Homebrews (first in the new thread!)

I think we should give General Tiger fighter abilities similar to a General Monkey's rogue abilities.   Perhaps something like this?

Master Fighter: General Tiger possesses all of the abilities of a 20th-level fighter, including 11 fighter bonus feats.  General Tiger is treated as a 20th-level fighter for meeting prerequisites for feats and any other purposes.

Shall we give him some tiger abilties?  (Improved grab, pounce, rake, +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.)


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews (first in the new thread!)
> 
> I think we should give General Tiger fighter abilities similar to a General Monkey's rogue abilities.   Perhaps something like this?
> 
> ...




That's all good! I'd throw in Improved Uncanny Dodge too, just for japes.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

Sure, that works for me.  

Updated.



> His mien is so fearsome that all creatures within 24" with less than 3 hit dice or levels must make a saving throw vs. spell or flee in panic for 1d4 turns.




Probably closer to the pit fiend's fear aura than frightful presence, since the latter only causes shaken condition.

Fear Aura (Su): A pit fiend can radiate a 20-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 27 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 18th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same pit fiend’s aura for 24 hours. Other devils are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sure, that works for me.
> 
> Probably closer to the pit fiend's fear aura than frightful presence, since the latter only causes shaken condition.
> 
> Fear Aura (Su): A pit fiend can radiate a 20-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 27 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 18th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same pit fiend’s aura for 24 hours. Other devils are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based.




Well the original version could only frighten creatures with fewer than 3 HD, which is closer to a dragon's Frightful Presence than the above Fear Aura.

Thus I'm voting for Frightful Presence.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2010)

It looks like freyar has many ties to break upon his return.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2010)

Well, a 3HD limit is pretty lame for this guy, but that's not a worry for either option.  I guess I think frightful presence is closer to the original in spirit and fits flavorfully as well.


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, a 3HD limit is pretty lame for this guy, but that's not a worry for either option.  I guess I think frightful presence is closer to the original in spirit and fits flavorfully as well.




Victory is mine!

Tremble before the frightful presence of General Tiger!


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

General Monkey's organisation still has 18th level Monkey rogues instead of the druids I suggested, e.g.:

*Organization:* Solitary or gang (General Monkey plus 10-60  simian monsters of CR 18-19 such as 18th-level awakened monkey druids,  15th-level awakened dire ape rogues or fighters, and behemoth gorillas)


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Tremble before the frightful presence of General Tiger!




Don't you mean "Minorly quake before the entity that so far outclasses you that you shouldn't be within a mile of it"?

I can live with frightful presence, even if it will be essentially useless.  It's not like many other powerful monsters don't have tacked-on flavor abilities.  

EDIT:  Actually, can we meet halfway and use the more powerful frightful presence of the tarrasque?

Frightful Presence (Su): The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based.



Cleon said:


> Cleon General Monkey's organisation...




Fixed.  Stop nagging me already!


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> EDIT:  Actually, can we meet halfway and use the more powerful frightful presence of the tarrasque?
> 
> Frightful Presence (Su): The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based.




How about giving them a version of that which also frightens or panics weak opponents.

*Terrifying Presence (Su):* General Tiger can inspire terror by charging or  attacking. Any creature within X feet of Tiger must succeed at a DC Y Will save or be affected. Creatures with more than half General Tiger's Hit Dice are shaken, creature with between one half and one quarter General Tiger's Hit Dice are frightened, and creatures with less than one quarter Tiger's Hit Dice are panicked. These conditions continue as long as the creature affected by this terrifying presence remain within range. The save DC is Charisma-based.



Shade said:


> Fixed.  Stop nagging me already!




I let you off easy.


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## Shade (Aug 24, 2010)

Hmm...that's kind of...GREAT!


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Hmm...that's kind of...GREAT!




He's frosty cool.

We still need a range for the Terrifying Presence.

I reckon it's at least as fearsome as an Ancient Dragon's Frightful Presence, and that has a 300 foot range. Would that suit you?

Oh, and we were talking about giving him some more equipment, namely +10 armour and a +10 shield (or a +14 suit of armour or shield?) and up to 2 million gp worth of other gear. 

I'm leaning towards just a shield, maybe a heavy adamantine _+5 __shield of exceptional arrow deflection_, since regular armour would hamper Tiger's +10 Dex bonus.

That's a +13 item, so we've saves 190,000 gp from our armour budget which can be spent on non-emcumbering defensive gear - that's enough for _+8 bracers of armor_, _+5 amulet of natural armor_, _+5 cloak of resistance_ and a _scarab of protection_ and still leave 13,000 gp in change!


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2010)

That's a pretty nice version of frightful presence.   I'm a tad confused on the discussion previously about frightful presence, though; a dragon's normally causes creatures with fewer HD to become shaken and creatures of 4HD or less to become panicked, which seems pretty similar to General Tiger.

Suggested equipment appeals.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm not fond of a shield for him (unless its a buckler), since he'll lose one of his claw attacks (or an off-hand claw attack if wielding his longsword 1-handed).

How about making a less "good" version of this for him?

Armor of the Celestial Battalion: This bright silver or gold +7 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without revealing its presence, though most owners wear it openly and with pride. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +10, no armor check penalty, and an arcane spell failure chance of 10%. It is considered light armor, and it allows the wearer to fly at will (as the fly spell). Furthermore, the wearer is at all times surrounded by a magic circle against evil effect (as the spell) which, if dispelled, can be created again as a free action.

   Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be good, magic circle against evil; Market Price: 616,300 gp; Cost to Create: 308,300 gp + 16,160 XP.

We could still use the shield for General Ox.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> That's a pretty nice version of frightful presence.   I'm a tad confused on the discussion previously about frightful presence, though; a dragon's normally causes creatures with fewer HD to become shaken and creatures of 4HD or less to become panicked, which seems pretty similar to General Tiger.




My problem was that most creatures would simply be shaken (except pathetic creatures with no business facing him in the first place).  The fear aura would have made all creatures panicked (shaken with a successful save).   Cleon's splits the difference nicely.


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## Cleon (Aug 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm not fond of a shield for him (unless its a buckler), since he'll lose one of his claw attacks (or an off-hand claw attack if wielding his longsword 1-handed).
> 
> How about making a less "good" version of this for him?
> 
> ...




Doesn't Ox use a 2-handed mace?

Still, I like the above armour. We'd need to change the _magic circle against evil_ to a _magic circle against law_ and swap  the fly for something else, since Tiger can already fly. Maybe _freedom of movement_? Increase the enhancement bonus to _+9 chainmail_ and it should be worth around a million.

Then we can add a _+6 cloak of epic resistance_, _+6 amulet of epic natural armour_ and a _scarab of protection_ for the other million gp worth of defensive gear.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

That all sounds good (except vs. chaos, since he's lawful).

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

Urgh, is the 10% spell failure chance ok?  It somewhat nerfs his casting.  But he looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Urgh, is the 10% spell failure chance ok?  It somewhat nerfs his casting.  But he looks pretty good.




I find it acceptable, since he seems primarily a warrior before spellcaster.  We can lower it if you'd prefer, though.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

It's ok, just wanted to make sure we thought about it.

Just need org, CR, and weight, I think.  Weight, I can handle easily, sort of.  Both balors and pit fiends are 12ft tall, and he's 9 ft, so we should divide the evil outsiders' weights by 2.37 for proportional scaling.  However, the balor weights 4500 lb and the pit fiend 800 lb, so that gives us something between roughly 350 lb or 1900 lb!  Split the difference and go with 1000 lb?

For org, he's supposed to be accompanied by 100 loyal tigers, but we'll need to reduce the number and increase the CR.  Any ideas?


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

1,000 pounds works for me.

How about legendary tigers?


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> That all sounds good (except vs. chaos, since he's lawful).
> 
> Updated.




Oops! I was thinking vs. Chaos, but it just came out wrong.



Shade said:


> freyar said:
> 
> 
> > Urgh, is the 10% spell failure chance ok?  It  somewhat nerfs his casting.  But he looks pretty good.
> ...




Good point, I'd much rather he not have any spell failure chance.

Hows about we give him Armoured Magic like we did the Faerie Queen?*Armored Mage (Ex):* The Tiger General does not have an arcane spell failure chance when wearing light armor.​Then we could give General Ox a heavy version of that, since he's got a much lower land speed than the other Generals I think he might be slowed by heavy armour...*Heavy Armored Mage (Ex):* The Ox General does not have an arcane spell failure chance when wearing light, Medium or Heavy armor.​


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> It's ok, just wanted to make sure we thought about it.
> 
> Just need org, CR, and weight, I think. Weight, I can handle easily, sort of. Both balors and pit fiends are 12ft tall, and he's 9 ft, so we should divide the evil outsiders' weights by 2.37 for proportional scaling. However, the balor weights 4500 lb and the pit fiend 800 lb, so that gives us something between roughly 350 lb or 1900 lb! Split the difference and go with 1000 lb?




That seems rather high. If he was 6' tall General Tiger would weigh 296 pounds. Still, we made Monkey 900 pounds and Tiger ought to be about the same.

Maybe he's been stuffing himself with frosties.

I imagine Ox'd he extremely broadly built, so we'd better make him 1500 pounds or so.



freyar said:


> For org, he's supposed to be accompanied by 100 loyal tigers, but we'll need to reduce the number and increase the CR. Any ideas?




I've given it some thought, and I like the idea of giving him 100 tigers so would fancy keeping it. They'd be a bit of a pain to keep track off, so I thought we'd make most of them awakened dire tigers who are basically just there to deal with the riff-raff, and have a core of higher-CR lieutenants who are actually able to help General Tiger deal with tough customers.

Legendary tigers seem a fine foundation, so I came up with the following:

*Organization:* Solitary; tiger-squad (General tiger and 5-10 tiger creatures of CR 19-20 such as 48 HD awakened legendary tigers, awakened legendary tiger 10th level shadowdancers, and LN rakshasa 10th level sorcerers) or tiger-host (General tiger plus 10 tiger creatures of CR 19-20 plus 100 awakened elite dire tigers)

Oh, and in a moment of insanity I statted some of them up. I had a moment of lucidity which prevented me working out the Rakshasa thought.

You may notice they’ve all got _cloaks of resistance_ - I just found the idea of an army of tigers wearing decorated cloaks hilarious!

*General Tiger's Shadowy Followers*
*awakened legendary tiger 10th level shadowdancer
*Large Magical Beast (Augmented Animal)
*Hit Dice:* 28d10+10d8+266 (465 hp)
*Initiative:* +11 (+7 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
*Speed:* 80 ft. (16 squares)
*Armor Class:* 32 (–1 size, +7 Dex, +3 armour, +3 deflection, +10 natural), touch 19, flat-footed 25 [includes _+3 ring of protection_ , _+3 bracers of armour_]
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +35/+50
*Attack:* Claw +46 melee (3d6+12/19-20) [includes _+1 amulet of mighty fists_]
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +46 melee (3d6+12/19-20) and bite +44 melee (2d8+5) [includes _+1 amulet of mighty fists_]
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Pounce, improved grab, rake 2d6+5
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., defensive roll, hide in plain sight, improved evasion, improved uncanny dodge, scent, shadow illusion [1/day _silent image_], shadow jump 160 ft., slippery mind, summon shadow
*Saves:* Fort +26, Ref +34, Will +22 [includes _+4 cloak of resistance_]
*Abilities:* Str 32, Dex 25, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12 [includes _+4 gloves of dexterity_]
*Skills:* Climb +11, Escape Artist +22, Hide +47, Jump +31, Listen +30, Move Silently +45, Perform (dance) +6, Spot +30, Swim +16, Tumble +22 [includes_ boots of elvenkind_ , _ring of chameleon power_]
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Dextrous Mind, Dextrous Fortitude, Dodge, Epic Reflexes, Epic Speed, Epic Will, Improved Critical (claws), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Mobility, Multiattack, Track
*Environment:* Any forest, hill, mountains, plains, or underground
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 20
*Treasure:* See Equipment
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 29–48 HD (Large)

*Combat*

*Pounce (Ex)*: If a legendary tiger leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action.

*Improved Grab (Ex)*: To use this ability, the legendary tiger must hit with a bite attack. If it gets a hold, it can rake.

*Rake (Ex)*: A legendary tiger can make two attacks (+30 melee) against a held creature with its hind legs for 2d6+5 points of Damage each. If the legendary tiger pounces on an opponent, it can also rake.

*Skills:* Legendary tigers receive a +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grasses or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +16.

*Equipment:* _+1 amulet of mighty fists_ , _+3 ring of protection_ , _+3 bracers of armour_ , _+4 cloak of resistance_ , _boots of elvenkind_ , _ring of chameleon power_ , _+4 gloves of dexterity_
total value 80,000 gp* adds up to a CR 20 Treasure*

*General Tiger's Ferocious Followers
48HD awakened advanced legendary tiger
*Large Magical Beast (Augmented Animal)
*Hit Dice:* 48d10+384 (648 hp)
*Initiative:* +13 (+5 Dex, +8 Improved Initiative)
*Speed:* 50 ft.
*Armor Class:* 30 (–1 size, +5 Dex, +4 armour, +2 deflection, +10 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 25 [includes _+4 bracers of armour_, _+2 ring of protection_]
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +48/+67
*Attack:* Claw +63 melee (3d6+16)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +63 melee (3d6+16) and bite +63 melee (3d8+8) [includes _+1 amulet of mighty fists_]
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Pounce, improved grab, rake 3d6+8
*Special Qualities:* Scent
*Saves:* Fort +37, Ref +38, Will +27 [includes _+3 cloak of resistance_]
*Abilities:* Str 40, Dex 20, Con 26, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12 [includes _+4 belt of giant strength,_ _+2 gloves of dexterity_]
*Skills:* Climb +27, Hide +40* [_+48 in jungle_], Jump +23, Listen +33, Move Silently +43, Spot +33, Swim +20 [Hide +50*, Move Silently +53 with _elixir of hiding_, _elixir of sneaking_]
*Feats: *Combat Reflexes, Epic Reflexes, Epic Skill Focus (Hide), Epic Skill Focus (Listen), Epic Skill Focus (Move Silently), Epic Skill Focus (Spot), Epic Will, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Natural Attack (claw), Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Run, Superior Initiative, Track
*Environment:* Any forest, hill, mountains, plains, or underground
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 19
*Treasure:* See Equipment
 *Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* –

*Combat*

*Pounce (Ex)*: If a legendary tiger leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action.

*Improved Grab (Ex)*: To use this ability, the legendary tiger must hit with a bite attack. If it gets a hold, it can rake.

*Rake (Ex)*: General tiger’s ferocious follower can make two attacks (+63 melee) against a held creature with its hind legs for 3d6+8 points of Damage each. If the legendary tiger pounces on an opponent, it can also rake.

*Skills:* Legendary tigers receive a +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grasses or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +16.

*Equipment:* _+1 amulet of mighty fists_, _brooch of shielding_, _+4 belt of giant strength,_ _+4 bracers of armour_, _+3 cloak of resistance_, _elixir of hiding_, _elixir of sneaking_, _+2 gloves of dexterity_, _+2 ring of protection_ 
total value 61,000 gp* adds up to a CR 19 Treasure*

*General Tiger's Rank and File Followers
awakened elite dire tiger
*Large Magical Beast (Augmented Animal, Dire)
*Hit Dice:* 18d10+72 (171 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class:* 20 (–1 size, +4 Dex, +1 armour, +9 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16 [includes _+1 bracers of armour_]
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +18/+32
*Attack:* Claw +28 melee (2d4+10)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +28 melee (2d4+10) and bite +25 melee (3d6+5)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, pounce, rake 2d4+5
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +16, Ref +16, Will +14 [includes _+1 cloak of resistance_]
*Abilities:* Str 30, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +17* [_+21 in jungles_], Jump +16, Listen +13, Move Silently +17, Spot +16, Swim +12 [includes _eyes of the eagle_]
*Feats:* Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (claw), Improved Natural Attack (bite), Multiattack, Run, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (claw)
*Environment:* Warm forests
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 9
*Treasure:* See Equipment
 *Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 19–32 HD (Large); 33–48 (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Combat*

A dire tiger attacks by running at prey, leaping, and clawing and biting as it rakes with its rear claws.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a dire tiger must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a dire tiger charges, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

*Rake (Ex):* Attack bonus +25 melee, damage 2d4+5.

*Skills:* Dire tigers have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.

*Equipment:* _+1 bracers of armour_, _+1 cloak of resistance_, _eyes of the eagle_.
total value 4,500 gp* adds up to a CR 9 Treasure*

Elite stats were Str 14, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm not sure I like the rakshasa (rakshasas should be eeeeee-vil), but I can go with the rest.

Speaking of tigers, did you guys see about the tiger cub packed in luggage today?  Video, too.


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## Cleon (Aug 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure I like the rakshasa (rakshasas should be eeeeee-vil), but I can go with the rest.




They don't have the Evil subtype you know.

It just seemed a good fit for a magical-support follower, since it's an anthropomorphic tiger spellcaster. I guess we could say it isn't actually a rakshasa, but just uses the same stats (except alignment).

Besides, I've already statted one out and it'd be a shame to waste it.



freyar said:


> Speaking of tigers, did you guys see about the tiger cub packed in luggage today?  Video, too.




Yes I did, it was in a couple of the UK papers.


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## Cleon (Aug 29, 2010)

Speaking of the rakshasa, I might as well post it for your consideration.

By the way, I've also finished statting up General Monkey's followers. The Monkey Druid was the trickiest. I'll post them too when I find the time.

I cheated a little by making its Charisma-boosting item a crown rather than a robe.

*General Tiger's Sorcerous Followers
LN elite tiger-sorcerer 10th level sorcerer
*Medium Outsider (Native)
*Hit Dice:* 7d8+10d4+85 (141 hp)
*Initiative:* +8
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class:* 28 (+4 Dex, +3 armour, +2 deflection, +9 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 24 [includes _+3 bracers of defense_, _+2 ring of protection_]
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+12
*Attack:* Claw +12 melee (1d4)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +12 melee (1d4) and bite +7 melee (1d6)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Detect thoughts, spells
*Special Qualities:* Change shape, damage reduction 15/good and piercing, darkvision 60 ft., spell resistance 27
*Saves:* Fort +17, Ref +16, Will +17 [includes _+4 cloak of resistance_]
*Abilities:* Str 10, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 30 [includes _+2 amulet of health_, _+6 crown of charisma_, +2 _gloves of dexterity_]
*Skills:* Bluff +34*, Concentration +25, Craft (alchemy) +13, Knowledge (arcana) +13, Diplomacy +24, Disguise +24 (+26 acting)*, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (arcana) +13, Listen +13, Move Silently +14, Perform (oratory) +13, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +23, Spot +13
*Feats:* Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (Illusion), Spell Focus (Transmutation)
*Environment:* Warm marshes
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 20
*Treasure:* Standard coins; double goods; standard items
*Alignment:* Always lawful neutral
*Advancement:* By character class
*Level Adjustment:* +7

General tiger is served by tiger-sorcerers, creatures closely related to rakshasas. Unlike true rakshasas, they do not have "backwards hands" and are neutral in alignment rather than evil. Their appearance and abilities are otherwise identical to a rakshasa. The origins of tiger-sorcerers are mysterious, some sages believe they are an ancestral race to the rakshasa who were never turned evil, others believe they are rakshasas who redeemed and underwent some form of transformation.

Tiger-sorcerers speak Common, Celestial, and Sylvan.

*Combat*
In close combat, which they disdains as ignoble, tiger-sorcerers employs its sharp claws and powerful bite. Whenever possible, it uses its other abilities to make such encounters unnecessary.

*Detect Thoughts (Su): *A tiger-sorcerer can continuously use _detect thoughts_ as the spell (caster level 18th; Will DC 15 negates). It can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Spells:* General tiger's tiger-sorcerer followers casts spells as a 17th-level sorcerer.

*Typical Sorcerer Spells Known*(6/7/7/7/7/7/7/7/5; save DC 20 + spell level):

*0*—_arcane mark_, _detect magic, detect poison, light, mage hand, message, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue;
*1st*_—_charm person, mage armor, magic missile, shield, silent image; 
*2nd*_—_ acid arrow, bear’s endurance, blindness/deafness, hideous laughter, mirror image;
*3rd*_—_fly_, _haste, slow, suggestion;
*4th*_—_bestow curse, charm monster, greater invisibility, phantasmal killer*_;_
*5th*_—_baleful polymorph*, break enchantment, hold monster, magic jar_;_
*6th*_—_disintegrate*, greater dispel magic, true seeing_;_
*7th*_—_greater shadow conjuration*_, _greater teleport_, _mage's sword_;_
*8th*_—_polar ray, polymorph any object*_;*+1 DC for Spell Focus
*Change Shape (Su):* A tiger-sorcerer can assume any humanoid form, or revert to its own form, as a standard action. In humanoid form, a tiger-sorcerer loses its claw and bite attacks (although it often equips itself with weapons and armor instead). A tiger-sorcerer remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but the tiger-sorcerer reverts to its natural form when killed. A _true seeing _spell reveals its natural form.

*Skills:* A tiger-sorcerer has a +4 racial bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks. *When using change shape, a tiger-sorcerer gains an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. If reading an opponent’s mind, its circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks increases by a further +4.

*Equipment:* _+2 amulet of health_, _+2 bracers of defense_, _+4 cloak of resistance_, _+6 crown of charisma_ [as _cloak of charisma _except for head slo_t_], _+2 gloves of dexterity_, _+2 ring of protection_, _ring of sustenance_, _whip feather token_
total value 80,000 gp* adds up to a CR 20 Treasure*

*Elite Ability Array Assignment:* Str 8, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 15
*Tiger-Sorcerer *[*Rakshasa] Ability Bonuses:* +2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +6 Charisma
*Ability Raises from HD Advancement:* 3 points, all in Charisma.


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

Yeah, I'm not too fond of the rakshasa followers for him, either.

Cleon--No need to stat up followers.  Feel free to do 'em for your own enjoyment, but I'd rather not make every monster entry novel-length with young, juveniles, and awakened monkey druid followers!


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I'm not too fond of the rakshasa followers for him, either.
> 
> Cleon--No need to stat up followers.  Feel free to do 'em for your own enjoyment, but I'd rather not make every monster entry novel-length with young, juveniles, and awakened monkey druid followers!




Well I know I don't need to stat them up, I just find it satisfying.

I suspect none of us would be here if we didn't like wasting our time statting up monsters.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well I know I don't need to stat them up, I just find it satisfying.
> 
> I suspect none of us would be here if we didn't like wasting our time statting up monsters.




Fair enough, and so true!  

I just wanted to make sure you knew why I didn't include 'em in the CC entries.  

Updated.

Unless I missed it, we haven't assigned feats and skills!

Skills: 15 at 33 ranks

Feats: 11 (4 can be epic) plus 11 fighter bonus feats (nonepic)
Dodge -> Whirlwind Attack feat tree?
Combat Expertise feat tree?
WF, GWF, WS, GWS (longsword)?
Multiattack/Improved Multiattack?


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fair enough, and so true!
> 
> I just wanted to make sure you knew why I didn't include 'em in the CC entries.




Would you like to see my monkeys though?



Shade said:


> Updated.




Why did we just have them change shape into animals of their own phenotype again?

All the Animal Generals had _shapechange_ at will in the original version!



Shade said:


> Unless I missed it, we haven't assigned feats and skills!
> 
> Skills: 15 at 33 ranks
> 
> ...




Whirlwind Attack is part of the Combat Expertise tree, not Dodge, but it's OK by me. 

Shall we work out the fighter feats first?

I'd go:


Combat Reflexes.
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Improved Trip
Whirlwind Attack.
Weapon Focus (longsword)
Greater Weapon Focus (longsword)
Weapon Specialisation (longsword)
Greater Weapon Specialisation (longsword)
Improved Critical (longsword).
Better use one of its regular feats to buy *Power Attack *too.

I'd only give it *Multiattack *& *Improved Multiattack *if it can make a bite and claw as secondary attacks with its longsword. Which obviously I think it should have...

Throw in *Improved Initiative* since General Monkey has it?

For its epic feats, he doesn't need Dire Charge since he has the Pounce SA but I'm tempted give it *Devastating Critical (longsword)*, which means we need *Cleave*, *Greate Cleave *and *Overwhelming Critical** (longsword)*.

That leaves one regular feat and two epic feats.

We've been neglecting its magic, so I think *Epic Spellcasting* and *Automatic Quicken Spell* to make up for it. It'll need *Quicken Spell* as a prereq.

That's the lot:

Non-fighter bonus feats, with Epic Feats in *bold*:


Multiattack
Improved Multiattack
Improved Initiative
Quicken Spell
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
*Overwhelming Critical (longsword)*
*Devastating Critical (longsword)*
*Automatic Quicken Spell*
*Epic Spellcasting* or *Automatic Quicken Spell×2*
I reckon its full attack line is now:

*Full Attack:* _+5 axiomatic ghost touch vicious vorpal longsword_ +47/+42/+37/+32 melee (2d6+25 plus 2d6 _vicious_/17-20, on a critical it does 5d6+50 plus 2d6 _vicious_ plus Fort DC X or die plus decapitation on a natural 20) and claw +40 melee (1d10+5) and bite +40 melee (2d10+5); or 2 claws +40 melee (1d10+11) and bite +40 melee (2d10+5)

Looks pretty harmless to me.

EDIT: Upon reflection, I think I'd rather give it a second Automatic Quicken Spells than Epic Spellcasting.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Why did we just have them change shape into animals of their own phenotype again?
> 
> All the Animal Generals had _shapechange_ at will in the original version!




Because it seemed more fun and flavorful, and because few monsters have full shapechange in 3.5 post-polymorph errata.

It's not like they need it!



Cleon said:


> EDIT: Upon reflection, I think I'd rather give it a second Automatic Quicken Spells than Epic Spellcasting.




Agreed with all the feats, and the quoted choice above.

Let's see what freyar thinks before I begin surgery on the stat block.


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Because it seemed more fun and flavorful, and because few monsters have full shapechange in 3.5 post-polymorph errata.
> 
> It's not like they need it!




I thought it was something like that, I just couldn't remember.

Still, I wouldn't mind giving their change shape a little extra.

Maybe _true seeing_ doesn't reveal they've shapechanged, since their animal forms are "real".



Shade said:


> Let's see what freyar thinks before I begin surgery on the stat block.




Fine by me.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

While we await freyar's blessing/nixing of the feats, shall we tackle the skills?

Skills: 15 at 33 ranks
Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Listen, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble...


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> While we await freyar's blessing/nixing of the feats, shall we tackle the skills?
> 
> Skills: 15 at 33 ranks
> Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Listen, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble...




Those all look appropriate.

Legendary Tigers have Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Swim, so we could throw those in two - maybe split one "maxed out" skill between Climb and Swim?

Sense Motive and Search to help it find those it's sent to punish?

Knowledge (arcane) so it pick up Epic Spellcasting later?

If everything apart from Climb and Swim are maxed out, its ranks could go like this:

Climb 20, Concentration 33, Hide 33, Jump 33, Intimidate 33, Knowledge (arcane) 33, Knowledge (the planes) 33, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 33, Listen 33, Move Silently 33, Search 33, Sense Motive 33, Spellcraft 33, Spot 33, Swim 13, Tumble 33,


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

Those look good, and let's just go with our current feat list.

Updated.

EDIT:  Wait a sec...it's got Improved Feint, but no Bluff skill!   We either need to steal some ranks for Bluff, or replace that feat.


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Those look good, and let's just go with our current feat list.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> EDIT:  Wait a sec...it's got Improved Feint, but no Bluff skill!   We either need to steal some ranks for Bluff, or replace that feat.




Oops!

I don't think it needs Improved Feint as a prereq for any of its other feats, and it doesn't have sneak attack, so I'd swap it for Improved Sunder rather than reassigning the skills:


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

CR 27?  He seems on par with Malkizid, but not quite as good as Eltab or the _Demonomicon_ versions of Malcanthet or Fraz-Urb'luu.

That being the case, his AC is way too good.  It shouldn't top 50.

We're currently at 58 (-1 size, +10 Dex, +x natural, +6 amulet of epic natural armor, +9 deflection, +9 insight, +14 armor of the Animal Kings).

His natural armor should be at least as good as General Monkey's (+5), and probably a bit higher (a tiger's is 3 higher than a monkey's).

I'd recommend we drop the amulet of epic natural armor and the insight bonus (which we can explain for monkey from his monklike/ninjalike powers), giving us:

50 (-1 size, +10 Dex, +8 natural, +9 deflection, +14 armor of the Animal Kings)

Look OK?


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## Cleon (Sep 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> CR 27?  He seems on par with Malkizid, but not quite as good as Eltab or the _Demonomicon_ versions of Malcanthet or Fraz-Urb'luu.
> 
> *SNIP*
> 
> ...




Those are both fine by me.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2010)

Updated.  Ready for General Ox?


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## Cleon (Sep 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Ready for General Ox?




Not quite. He's missing tactics for a start.

We should also change the _armor of the animal kings _creation entry to reflect the changes from _armor of the celestial battalions_ since it's got a higher enhancement bonus and different powers.

Something like this:

Caster Level: 26th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft  Epic Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be lawful, _magic circle against chaos_, _freedom of movement_; Market Price: 936,300 gp; Cost to Create: 468,300 gp + 19,360 XP.


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## Shade (Sep 13, 2010)

Tactics:  General Tiger arrives; people die.  

Updated.


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2010)

I've added a basic framework for General Ox to Homebrews using General Tiger's ability scores.

Higher Str and Con than Tiger, lower Dex, Wis, and Cha?

His +5 mace will need additional properties.  Since it unleashes a meteor swarm once per day, I could see fiery blast as a good fit.   Do we want to stick with heavy mace (a one-handed weapon) and give him the fancy shield Cleon suggested for Tiger, or give him a special two-handed mace (I believe we've statted one up before for another creature), so he can really dish out the damage?


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## Cleon (Sep 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Tactics:  General Tiger arrives; people die.
> 
> Updated.




Looks good, the only error I could find was the rake is missing a space in "+40melee".

On to Ox!


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2010)

I'll fix the spacing issue.

See my post above yours for the beginning ox volley.


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> I've added a basic framework for General Ox to Homebrews using General Tiger's ability scores.
> 
> Higher Str and Con than Tiger, lower Dex, Wis, and Cha?




That's pretty much the physical stats I was thinking of. The SRD Tiger has a Dex 5 points higher than the SRD Bison, which I think is a decent benchmark - knock 5 off Dex, add 3 to Str and Con?

I would rather keep the Wisdom and Charisma bonuses the same, but we could lower one or both of them to 28 for the sake of appearances. I wouldn't mind lowering Ox's Intelligence a point too.

That works out:

Abilities: Str 36, Dex 25, Con 33, Int 23, Wis 28, Cha 28



Shade said:


> His +5 mace will need additional properties.  Since it unleashes a meteor swarm once per day, I could see fiery blast as a good fit.   Do we want to stick with heavy mace (a one-handed weapon) and give him the fancy shield Cleon suggested for Tiger, or give him a special two-handed mace (I believe we've statted one up before for another creature), so he can really dish out the damage?




I'd like to keep the suggested epic shield (a heavy adamantine _+5 __shield of exceptional arrow deflection_) plus a heavy mace. We can always add a "wield oversized weapon" ability to make it a Huge Heavy Mace if we want to increase the damage.

I also suggested giving Ox heavy armour (to explain his slow speed) with a "Heavy Armoured Mage" SQ:
*Heavy Armored Mage (Ex):* The Ox General does not have an arcane spell failure chance when wearing light, Medium or Heavy armor.​Do we want to give Ox a Powerful Charge attack with his horns?


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

Updated.

Powerful charge?  HELL YEAH!  

We'll probably be fine without the oversized weapon.  Thoughs on fiery blast?

Suggested gore damage?  Double on a powerful charge like a rhino?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2010)

Well, tiger looks pretty impressive. 

Fiery blast looks pretty good to me.  Is a total +11 bonus (the +5 enhancement plus the +6 fiery blast) allowed though?


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## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Powerful charge?  HELL YEAH!
> 
> ...




I was thinking the same as a minotaur, which does increases the damage by one step and then doubles it. However giving it a 2d6 gore attack like a Rhino suits me:

*Powerful Charge (Ex):* General ox typically begins a battle by charging at an opponent, lowering its head to bring its mighty horns into play. In addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge, this allows the general to make a single gore attack with a *+48?* attack bonus that deals 6d6+18 points of damage. 

Here's my latest thoughts.

Most of General Tiger's feats seem a good fit, with mace instead of longsword, obviously, except I'd give him Improved Bull Rush instead of Improved Trip (it seems appropriate ) and he can't have the Multiattack feats, since he only has 1 natural attack.

How about adding 2 slam attacks so he's eligible for Multiattack, but I think I'd rather give him Improved Critical (gore) than Improved Multiattack.

Ox has 2 more feats due to his higher HD, so I'd add another Auto-Quick Spell and Dire Charge - since he doesn't have Tiger's Pounce he'll definitely need the latter!

Feats: Automatic Quicken Spell (x3), Combat Expertise, Cleave, Combat  Reflexes, Devastating Critical (heavy mace), Dire Charge, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon  Focus (heavy mace), Greater Weapon Specialization (longsword), Improved Bull Rush, Improved  Critical (gore), Improved  Critical (heavy mace), Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Overwhelming  Critical (heavy mace), Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Weapon Focus  (heavy mace), Weapon Specialization (heavy mace), Whirlwind Attack

Attack: _+5 heavy mace_ +47 melee (2d6+18) or gore +x melee (xdx+13)
Full Attack: _+5 heavy mace_ +47/+42/+37/+32 melee (2d6+18) and gore +x melee (2d6+6); or gore +x melee (2d6+13/19-20) and 2 slams +x melee (1d6+6)

As for the mace, fiery blast seems a great fit for its _meteor swarm_ but I do really like the idea of it being Oversized. Speaking of that _meteor swarm_, I think we'd better give it a bit more "oomph" since Ox can cast regular quickened _meteor swarms_ with his sorcerer spellcasting. I'm thinking empowered and widened.

I think we should give it the same +14 value as Tiger's longsword. A +5 fiery blast is already +11, leaving +3. How about _ghost touch_, _throwing_ and _returning_? I thought about thundering instead of returning, but then Ox would be throwing his weapon away.

Something like this:

*Meteoric Mace:* This huge _+5 adamantine fiery blast ghost touch returning throwing heavy mace_ has a head mace from a lump of meteoric iron in a cage of adamantine, set upon a shaft of adamantine steel. Once per day, the wielder of a meteoric mace can use it to hurl an empowered widened _meteor swarm_ (CL 28). A meteoric mace is treated as being both adamantine and cold iron for purposes of penetrating damage resistance.

_Caster Level:_ 28th; _Prerequisites:_ Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, Empower Spell, Widen Spell, _fireball_, _magic stone_, _meteor swarm_, _plane shift_, _telekinesis_; _Market Price:_ 5,100,048 gp; _Cost:_ 2,551,048 gp + 61,000 XP.

I think the cost is correct - 3048 [adamantine Huge heavy mace] +3,920,000 [+14 bonuses]  + 1,176,000 [use-activated 14th lvl CL 28 meteor swarm, +50% for additional ability] and I threw in an extra 10k for the "adamantine AND cold iron" bit.

For the armour, I was thinking _+2 ghost touch heavy fortification full plate_. That keeps it just in the non-epic category so it won't cost that much. I'm also tempted to make the plate adamantine too, just for the DR 3/- when he's facing Epic Weapons, but frankly that probably won't make difference.

Putting that all together:

*Armor Class:* 52 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +16 natural, +9 deflection, +10 armour _+2 ghost touch heavy fortification [__adamantine__?] full plate_, +7 shield _+5 heavy adamantine shield of exceptional arrow deflection_), touch 19, flat-footed 51
*Attack:* _meteoric mace_ +55 melee (3d6+18+3d6 fire/19-20 6d6+36+9d6 fire) or gore +48 melee (2d6+13) or _meteoric mace_ +49 thrown (3d6+18+3d6 fire/19-20 6d6+36+9d6 fire)
*Full Attack:* _meteoric mace_ +55/+47/+45/+42 melee (3d6+18+3d6 fire/19-20 6d6+36+9d6 fire) and gore +46 melee (2d6+6/19-20); or gore +48 melee (2d6+13/19-20) and 2 slams +46 melee (1d6+6);  or _meteoric mace_ +49/+44/+39/+34 thrown (3d6+18+3d6 fire/19-20 6d6+36+9d6 fire)


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## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, tiger looks pretty impressive.
> 
> Fiery blast looks pretty good to me.  Is a total +11 bonus (the +5 enhancement plus the +6 fiery blast) allowed though?




It is when it's an Epic Weapon.


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## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> As for the mace, fiery blast seems a great fit for its _meteor swarm_ but I do really like the idea of it being Oversized. Speaking of that _meteor swarm_, I think we'd better give it a bit more "oomph" since Ox can cast regular quickened _meteor swarms_ with his sorcerer spellcasting. I'm thinking empowered and widened.
> 
> I think we should give it the same +14 value as Tiger's longsword. A +5 fiery blast is already +11, leaving +3. How about _ghost touch_, _throwing_ and _returning_? I thought about thundering instead of returning, but then Ox would be throwing his weapon away.
> 
> ...




Alternatively, if you don't like returning, I'd give it either _axiomatic_ or _shock_ and _thundering_ instead. That'll increase the damage, but I prefer the versatility of being able to attack anything within 50 ft.

*Meteoric Mace:* This huge _+5 adamantine fiery blast ghost touch returning throwing heavy mace_  has a head mace from a lump of meteoric iron in a cage of adamantine,  set upon a shaft of adamantine steel. Once per day, the wielder of a  meteoric mace can use it to hurl an empowered widened _meteor swarm_ (CL 28). A meteoric mace is treated as being both adamantine and cold iron for purposes of penetrating damage resistance.

*Attack:* _meteoric mace_ +55 melee (3d6+18+3d6 fire/19-20 6d6+36+9d6 fire)

*Meteoric Mace #2:* This huge _+5 adamantine fiery blast ghost touch shock thundering heavy mace_  has a head mace from a lump of meteoric iron in a cage of adamantine,  set upon a shaft of adamantine steel. Once per day, the wielder of a  meteoric mace can use it to hurl an empowered widened _meteor swarm_ (CL 28). A meteoric mace is treated as being both adamantine and cold iron for purposes of penetrating damage resistance.

*Attack:* _meteoric mace_ +55 melee (3d6+18+3d6 fire+1d6 electricity/19-20 6d6+36+9d6 fire+1d6 electricity+1d8 sonic)

*Meteoric Mace #3:* This huge _+5 adamantine axiomatic fiery blast ghost touch heavy mace_  has a head mace from a lump of meteoric iron in a cage of adamantine,  set upon a shaft of adamantine steel. Once per day, the wielder of a  meteoric mace can use it to hurl an empowered widened _meteor swarm_ (CL 28). A meteoric mace is treated as being both adamantine and cold iron for purposes of penetrating damage resistance.

*Attack:* _meteoric mace_ +55 melee (3d6+18+3d6 fire plus 2d6 vs chaos/19-20 6d6+36+9d6 fire plus 2d6 vs chaos)

Oh, and how's this for combat tactics:

*COMBAT*
General ox loves to blast away hosts of lesser opponents by simultaneously casting two _meteor swarm_ spells, an empowered widened _meteor swarm_ from his _meteoric mace_ and a quickened _meteor swarm_ from his sorcerer spellcasting. For worthy foes, he prefers to Dire Charge into them and unleash full attacks using his mace in combination with quickened spells - usually _implosion_ or _polar ray_.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2010)

Actually, I really like the throwing/returning!  What I don't like is the ghost touch...that seems a relatively useless power unless he's an undead hunter.


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Actually, I really like the throwing/returning!  What I don't like is the ghost touch...that seems a relatively useless power unless he's an undead hunter.




We gave tiger a _ghost touch_ weapon so I thought we'd better give Ox one too, so he can hurt those pesky incorporeal foes. He probably is an undead hunter, since they're the sort of unnatural perils Ox is likely to be unleashed upon.

However, if it really bothers you we might swap if for _shock_.

Let's see what freyar thinks (provided he agrees with me ).


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## freyar (Sep 20, 2010)

Tough call!  I like making a parallel weapon quality for tiger and ox, but maybe shock is nice for variety.  I say let's go for shock.  I see nothing in the original text that says ox is particularly likely to face undead, and he could always cast etherealness to deal with ethereal incorporeals like ghosts, right?

Shall we work on the earthquake next?  He's tough enough that just simulating a regular earthquake spell wouldn't be too much.  Heck, it might even be too little!


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Woo-hoo, shock for the win!  

If you want to keep 'em parallel, we can give tiger shock instead of ghost touch as well.

Updated.  I'm not sure where the 19-20 threat range came from in your sample, but we can give him Improved Critical (mace) as one of his feats.

Tough call on the earthquake.  On the one hand, we've got the stomp ability of the goristro...

Stamp (Su): Up to three times per day, a goristro can produce a shock wave that sends its foes careening off-balance by stamping on the ground as a standard action. The shock wave lasts for 1 round and duplicates the effects of an earthquake spell in an 80-foot radius around the goristro. The goristro and others of its kind are unaffected by the earthquake.

...on the other hand, we could borrow something more epic...

Shockwave (Ex): As a standard action, an earth giant can stomp the earth with one of its massive feet. This causes a severe localized earth tremor, affecting all creatures standing on the ground within 100 feet of the giant. Creatures in this region must succeed on a DC 50 Reflex save or fall prone. Structures in this area suffer 4d12+22 points of damage, and this attack ignores hardness. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Woo-hoo, shock for the win!
> 
> If you want to keep 'em parallel, we can give tiger shock instead of ghost touch as well.
> 
> ...




I'd go for shockwave...

...and a double helping of _ghost touch_.​


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

Updated.

Suggested base gore damage?

Our target AC is probably going to be in the 51-55 rarnge.  A rhino has +4 greater natural armor than a tiger.  General Tiger has +8 natural.  So let's say +12 natural.  That puts us at AC 44 ((-1 size, +7 Dex, +12 natural, +9 deflection, +7 _+5 heavy adamantine shield of exceptional arrow deflection_), leaving up to +11 for armor bonus (assuming max Dex bonus allowed).   What type of armor do you fancy for him?


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Suggested base gore damage?
> 
> Our target AC is probably going to be in the 51-55 rarnge.  A rhino has +4 greater natural armor than a tiger.  General Tiger has +8 natural.  So let's say +12 natural.  That puts us at AC 44 ((-1 size, +7 Dex, +12 natural, +9 deflection, +7 _+5 heavy adamantine shield of exceptional arrow deflection_), leaving up to +11 for armor bonus (assuming max Dex bonus allowed).   What type of armor do you fancy for him?




I've already given proposals to answer both those questions.



Cleon said:


> For the armour, I was thinking _+2 ghost touch heavy fortification full plate_.  That keeps it just in the non-epic category so it won't cost that much.  I'm also tempted to make the plate adamantine too, just for the DR 3/-  when he's facing Epic Weapons, but frankly that probably won't make  difference.
> 
> Putting that all together:
> 
> ...




We might be able to tweak the armour to improve the allowable Dex bonus.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Ahh...I found your post upthread that addressed those issues.

I like the proposed armor, but not the ghost touch again.  Why the perceived focus on fighting incorporeal foes?  

We could make it mithral, rather than adamantine, to improve the Dex bonus to +3.  We could boost the enhancement bonus to +5, to offset most of the lost remainder.


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Ahh...I found your post upthread that addressed those issues.
> 
> I like the proposed armor, but not the ghost touch again.  Why the perceived focus on fighting incorporeal foes?




Because they're the Ghostbusting Generals! 



Shade said:


> We could make it mithral, rather than adamantine, to improve the Dex bonus to +3.  We could boost the enhancement bonus to +5, to offset most of the lost remainder.




I was trying to keep it a non-epic suit of armour so it doesn't cost that much, but if you don't mind the extra treasure value feel free to make it _+5 mithral heavy fortification full plate_.

Although I still like the _ghost touch_.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Because they're the Ghostbusting Generals!




Now I get it..._bustin' makes you feel good_.

Said General Ox:  "I ain't afraid of no ghosts."

_+5 mithral heavy fortification full plate_ appeals.

Updated.

Skills: 14 at 39 ranks (-3 armor check penalty)
Climb, Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble?

Feats: 13 (6 can be epic) plus 11 fighter bonus feats
Awesome Blow, Greater Weapon Focus (mace), Greater Weapon Specialization (mace),  Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (mace), Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (mace), Weapon Specialization (mace)...


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Now I get it..._bustin' makes you feel good_.
> 
> Said General Ox:  "I ain't afraid of no ghosts."
> 
> ...




Knowledge (nobility and royalty) doesn't fit my concept of Ox, so could we swap it for Survival, Knowledge (nature) or Knowledge (religion)?



Shade said:


> Feats: 13 (6 can be epic) plus 11 fighter bonus feats
> Awesome Blow, Greater Weapon Focus (mace), Greater Weapon Specialization (mace),  Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (mace), Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (mace), Weapon Specialization (mace)...




What about the feats I proposed earlier?



Cleon said:


> Most of General Tiger's feats seem a good fit, with  mace instead of longsword, obviously, except I'd give him Improved Bull  Rush instead of Improved Trip (it seems appropriate ) and he can't have the Multiattack feats, since he only has 1 natural attack.
> 
> How about adding 2 slam attacks so he's eligible for Multiattack, but I  think I'd rather give him Improved Critical (gore) than Improved  Multiattack.
> 
> ...


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

Knowledge (nature) appeals to me most.

I'd really like to get Awesome Blow and Improved Shield Bash on his list.  He strikes me as less of a spellcaster-focused guy than the other two, so I'd proposes dropping an Automatic Quicken Spell or two.  Dire Charge seems kind of...odd...with powerful charge, but I suppose nothing prevents the two from working together.  I'm also not fond of Improved Disarm for him...that seems too subtle for him.

Blending our two lists, I propose...

Automatic Quicken Spell (x2), Awesome Blow, Combat Expertise, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Devastating Critical (heavy mace), Dire Charge, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy mace), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (gore), Improved Critical (heavy mace), Improved Initiative, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (heavy mace), Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Weapon Specialization (heavy mace), Whirlwind Attack

I'll add the two slam attacks so Multiattack works.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2010)

If Dire Charge seems weird with Powerful Charge, why not swap Dire Charge for Overwhelming Crit (gore) to beef up those charges?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> If Dire Charge seems weird with Powerful Charge, why not swap Dire Charge for Overwhelming Crit (gore) to beef up those charges?




I'd be up for that.  I'd be fine with dropping the whole Whirlwind Attack tree as well, and giving him some more gore-boosters, to help differentiate him from Tiger.  He strikes me as more of a "brute force" guy than a "move around nimbly" guy.  

Wait a sec...how does he have Whirlwind Attack with Dodge, Mobility or Spring Attack???  

EDIT:  It looks like General Tiger's "cheating" to get Whirlwind Attack, too.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd be up for that.  I'd be fine with dropping the whole Whirlwind Attack tree as well, and giving him some more gore-boosters, to help differentiate him from Tiger.  He strikes me as more of a "brute force" guy than a "move around nimbly" guy.
> 
> Wait a sec...how does he have Whirlwind Attack with Dodge, Mobility or Spring Attack???
> 
> EDIT:  It looks like General Tiger's "cheating" to get Whirlwind Attack, too.




Dang it, I could have sworn I checked Tiger's prereqs.

Oh well, just stick in a few (B) feats and it'll be all right.

I don't mind dropping Whirlwind Attack from Ox, but would like to keep the triple AutoQuickSpell feats.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2010)

Instead of bonus feats, Tiger could get Flyby Attack in place of Whirlwind Attack.

As for Ox, we could go with Improved Multiattack.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

Revising...

Automatic Quicken Spell (x2), Awesome Blow, Combat Expertise, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Devastating Critical (heavy mace), Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy mace), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (gore), Improved Critical (heavy mace), Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (gore), Overwhelming Critical (heavy mace), Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Weapon Specialization (heavy mace)

I'm still not convinced on another Automatic Quicken Spell...I think Ox should be the least spell-focused of the three.  Freyar...wanna break the tie?  

For Tiger, I'm fine with replacing Whirlwind Attack with Flyby Attack.


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2010)

One or maybe two Auto Quickens are ok with me, but three seems like too much.  I guess I'd prefer one, since I do agree with Shade about Ox's preferences in combat.  How about Spellcasting Harrier or maybe Spell Stowaway instead of one of the Auto Quickens?


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> Instead of bonus feats, Tiger could get Flyby Attack in place of Whirlwind Attack.




Nah, Flyby Attack is a very subpar option, since he'd only get one attack.

I still want Whirlwind Attack for him, maybe  just give Tiger it as a bonus feat.



freyar said:


> As for Ox, we could go with Improved Multiattack.




He already had Improved Multiattack, did Shade cut it out?


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2010)

I didn't see Improved Multiattack in Shade's previous list.  What do you think about Spellcasting Harrier?


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## Cleon (Sep 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I didn't see Improved Multiattack in Shade's previous list.  What do you think about Spellcasting Harrier?




Well it is in there:



Shade said:


> Automatic Quicken Spell (x2), Awesome Blow, Combat Expertise, Cleave,  Combat Reflexes, Devastating Critical (heavy mace), Great Cleave,  Greater Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy  mace), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (gore), Improved Critical  (heavy mace), Improved Initiative, *Improved Multiattack*, Improved Shield  Bash, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (gore),  Overwhelming Critical (heavy mace), Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Weapon  Focus (heavy mace), Weapon Specialization (heavy mace)




I like Spellcasting Harrier a lot better than Flyby Attack.


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

Actually I meant it wasn't in Shade's list in post 932 of the thread.  That's why I suggested adding it.

I actually meant Spellcasting Harrier in place of one of the Automatic Quickens for Ox.  Of course, it could be ok for Tiger in place of Flyby if he has an epic slot left.


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## Shade (Sep 27, 2010)

OK, let's settle this.  

Tiger:  Grant Whirlwind Attack as a bonus feat, and fill that vacated feat slot with Flyby Attack?

Ox:  Automatic Quicken Spell, Awesome Blow, Combat Expertise, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Devastating Critical (heavy mace), Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy mace), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (gore), Improved Critical (heavy mace), Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (gore), Overwhelming Critical (heavy mace), Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Spellcasting Harrier, Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Weapon Specialization (heavy mace)?


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

That all sounds ok to me.


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## Cleon (Sep 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> OK, let's settle this.
> 
> Tiger:  Grant Whirlwind Attack as a bonus feat, and fill that vacated feat slot with Flyby Attack?
> 
> Ox:  Automatic Quicken Spell, Awesome Blow, Combat Expertise, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Devastating Critical (heavy mace), Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy mace), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (gore), Improved Critical (heavy mace), Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (gore), Overwhelming Critical (heavy mace), Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Spellcasting Harrier, Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Weapon Specialization (heavy mace)?




That's alright by me.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Updated (and General Tiger too).

Organization: x

Challenge Rating: 30?  General Tiger is CR 27, and by normal outsider advancement rules, he'd be 3 higher.

General Ox stands 9 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated (and General Tiger too).
> 
> Organization: x
> 
> ...




CR 30 is fine.

Do we want to use the original's Gozi-Oni for the organisation? I vaguely recall seeing official 3E stats but they weren't that tough, so we may want to advance them in some fashion.

He ought to be heavier than the other two generals, since he's built like an Ox.

1500 pounds?


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Go-zu oni are CR 9 and normally appear in bands of 2-20.  Not bad, really.   They advance by character class, so we could always slap appropriate amounts of fighter levels upon them to achieve our "sweet spot".


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Go-zu oni are CR 9 and normally appear in bands of 2-20.  Not bad, really.   They advance by character class, so we could always slap appropriate amounts of fighter levels upon them to achieve our "sweet spot".




So something like 12th levels in a martial character class?

Can you think of anything more interesting than fighter.

How about sorcerer 2/dragon disciple 10 for a "magical support" version?

What are a Go-Zu Oni's stats anyway.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2010)

Fighter may seem boring, but is a perfect fit for 'em.

The go-zu are like mini versions of General Ox...

Go-Zu Oni
Large Giant (Spirit)
Hit Dice: 12d8+48 (102 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +7 natural, +4 partial armor), touch 9, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+20
Attack: Huge greatsword +15 melee (2d8+10)
Full Attack: Huge greatsword +15/+10 melee (2d8+10) and gore +10 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Change shape, low-light vision, regeneration 5, see invisibility
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +4, Will +6
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 17
Skills: Climb +19, Jump +19, Listen +17, Spot +17
Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or band (2-20)
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: -

Go-zu oni are mighty warriors who serve as soldiers in a spirit army.

Go-zu oni resemble common oni, but they are larger (about 9 feet tall) and their bodies are thicker (averaging 350 pounds). They have the heads of bulls, with large snouts, small ears, and two long horns. Their skin is usually dark orange, gray, or deep purple. They wear fine robes and polished armor, appropriate to their station in the spirit army.

Go-Zu oni speak Giant, Tengu, Goblin, Common, and the Spirit Tongue.

Combat
Go-zu oni fight with weapons suited to their size. In addition to the greatsword (n0-dachi) shown in the statistics above, a go-zu oni may use a spear, naginata, halberd, or trident in melee.

Change Shape (Su): A go-zu oni can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.

Regeneration (Ex): Fire and acid deal normal damage to a go-zu oni.

See Invisibility (Su): Go-zu oni can see invisible creatures and objects within their range of normal vision.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—cause fear, fire shuriken*, fly, invisibility; 2/day—cloud chariot* (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*Appears in Oriental Adventures.


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2010)

Agreed, stick with fighter levels.  These are ox-warriors, not yakfolk!


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fighter may seem boring, but is a perfect fit for 'em.
> 
> The go-zu are like mini versions of General Ox...




I already knew their general qualities, since I've got Oriental Adventures (both the 1E and 3E versions). I just couldn't face going through my collection to find out where I'd put the dang thing.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there's the 2E version in MC6 as well :ENDEDIT

So CR 20-21, for 11-12 levels in a character class?

If we just modified Tiger's organization we'd get:

Organisation: Solitary; ox-team (General Ox plus 5-10 ox creatures of CR 20-21, such as go-zu oni 12th level fighters or awakened bison 18th level barbarians) or stampede (General Ox plus 10 ox creatures of CR 20-21 plus 10-40 go-zu oni)

However, Ox seems to prefer go-zu oni, which suggests changing it to:

Organisation: Solitary; ox-team (General Ox plus 4-8 go-zu oni of CR  20-21, such as go-zu oni 12th level fighters or monks) or stampede (General Ox plus 8 go-zu oni of CR  20-21 plus 10-40 standard go-zu oni)


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2010)

Do you have 3E stats for the other two OA Oni handy?

The Common Oni is probably too monstrous, but the Me-Zu Oni might do as a "herdmate" for General Ox.

They may have horse heads, but there's still a lot of overlap.

EDIT: Plus, don't they still have wu-jen spellcasting in 3E? That would make them useful spellcaster bodyguards to go with the go-zu martial bodyguards.


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

Me-zu would probably fit fine.  Since we don't have "General Horse", they might as well follow some leader.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2010)

Works for me.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

Hey, freyar!  I'm glad you could drop by.  

Updated.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Me-zu would probably fit fine.  Since we don't have "General Horse", they might as well follow some leader.




They're probably petitioning the Celestial Emperor to commission a General Horse as we speak. 

So what stats do Me-Zu have in 3E, are they still spellcasters?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

Me-zu cast spells as 10th-level wu jen.

They are one CR higher than go-zu.  I worked them into the Org line on Homebrews, but we can change the numbers if you desire.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2010)

I have no objection to what's there now.  

These generals have been fun; I hope whatever's next is just as good!


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Me-zu cast spells as 10th-level wu jen.
> 
> They are one CR higher than go-zu.  I worked them into the Org line on Homebrews, but we can change the numbers if you desire.





I'd rather the number or Me-zu was smaller than the number of Go-zu, maybe:

*Organization:* Solitary, ox-team (General Ox plus 4-8 go-zu oni of CR 20-21, such as go-zu oni 12th level fighters or monks) or stampede (General Ox plus 8 go-zu oni of CR 20-21 plus 10-40 standard go-zu oni and 2-4 me-zu oni of CR 20-21 plus 5-20 standard me-zu oni)

Also, there are a few minor errors.

He should have a base speed listed for when he isn't wearing heavy armour, his unencumbered land speed would be 70 ft.

*Speed:* 50 ft. in full plate (10 squares; base speed 70 ft.), fly 60 ft. (perfect)

The meteoric mace "has a head mace from a lump of meteoric iron" rather than "made from".

Since you've dropped the triple auto-quicken feat Ox can't have the quickened spells listed in his tactics entry:

*Combat*
General ox loves to blast away hosts of lesser opponents by simultaneously casting two _meteor swarm_ spells, an empowered widened _meteor swarm_ from his meteoric mace and a quickened _meteor swarm_ from his sorcerer spellcasting. For worthy foes, he prefers to Dire Charge into them and unleash full attacks using his mace in combination with quickened spells – usually _implosion_ or _polar ray_.

Revising...

General ox loves to blast away hosts of lesser opponents with an empowered widened meteor swarm from his meteoric mace or a quickened meteor swarm from his sorcerer spellcasting. For worthy foes, he prefers to Dire Charge into them and unleash full attacks using his mace.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2010)

Wait, he can't use Auto Quicken on meteor swarm, either, since it would only work on 0th-3rd level spells.  And regular Quicken Spell doesn't work for him as a spontaneous spellcaster.  Is it worth having 2 feats just to quicken up to 3rd level spells?


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Wait, he can't use Auto Quicken on meteor swarm, either, since it would only work on 0th-3rd level spells.  And regular Quicken Spell doesn't work for him as a spontaneous spellcaster.  Is it worth having 2 feats just to quicken up to 3rd level spells?




I agree a single Auto-Quick isn't much use, so I would consider swapping those two feats out - I'd suggest Weapon Focus (gore), Devastating Critical (gore).

Come to think of it, Ox needs WF (gore) to qualify for Overwhelming Critical (gore) and we forgot to give it to him.

For my own homebrew I'm circumventing the problem by giving Ox Improved Bull Rush and Improved Critical (gore) as bonus feats so we can give him triple Auto-Quick-Spell, then I can keep the original "quickened meteor swarm" tactics.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2010)

Those two gore-enhancement feats will work for me.


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## Cleon (Oct 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Those two gore-enhancement feats will work for me.




So we're now talking:

Feats: Awesome Blow, Combat Expertise, Cleave,  Combat Reflexes, Devastating Critical (gore), Devastating Critical (heavy mace), Great Cleave,  Greater Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy  mace), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (gore), Improved Critical  (heavy mace), Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Shield  Bash, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (gore),  Overwhelming Critical (heavy mace), Power Attack, Spellcasting Harrier, Weapon Focus (heavy mace), Weapon Focus (gore), Weapon Specialization  (heavy mace)

We'll also need to modify the Attack line to account for the improvement to gore: +43 melee (2d6+13/19-20 plus 1d6 on a critical hit and DC 41 Fort save or die).

Apart from that, are we done with Ox?


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2010)

Updated, and yes I think we're done.


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated, and yes I think we're done.




His skills line has a "*includs* -3 armor check penalty".

Looks like somebody forgot to includ an "e".

Since we dropped the Automatic Quicken Spells, we need to change the tactics to something like:
General ox loves to blast away hosts of lesser opponents with an  empowered widened _meteor swarm_ from his meteoric mace or a regular _meteor swarm_ using his sorcerer spellcasting. For worthy foes, he prefers  to Dire Charge into them and unleash full attacks with his mace and horns.​He should have a base speed listed for when he isn't wearing heavy armour, his unencumbered land speed would be 70 ft.

*Speed:* 50 ft. in full plate (10 squares; base speed 70 ft.), fly 60 ft. (perfect)

I'm not _that_ bothered about my earlier proposed changes to the organisation numbers, so I'll leave it up to you and Freyar whether to change them.

*Organization:* Solitary; ox-team (General Ox plus 5-10 ox creatures of CR 20-21, such  as go-zu oni 12th level fighters or awakened bison 18th level  barbarians) or stampede (General Ox plus 10 ox creatures of CR 20-21  plus 10-40 go-zu oni).

Oh, and it's still got the "heavy mace has a head *mace* from a lump of meteoric iron" instead of "head made" typo in the Meteoric Mace description.

Once that's all sorted I think he's ready to rock!


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2010)

Fixed.  Rock on!


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2010)

Awesome, these were pretty cool!


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## Cleon (Oct 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed.  Rock on!




Sorcerer is mispelled in the final sentence - "He casts spells as a wu jen rather than a sorceror." General Monkey and Tiger have probably got the same typo too.

I didn't bring it up just to put in the last word, honest.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

This should be fun.  

*Undead Mass:* AC 7; HD n/a; hp 111; #AT up to 12 (max 2 per PC); THAC0=15; Dmg 1d6 (bite, buffet, etc.) + 1d4 electrical damage (save vs. Spells for half damage); MV 30’ (10’); Save MU16; ML 12; AL N; XPs 3,000.

If the PCs can’t stop the machinery, they are attacked by what is essentially an animated mass of undead bodies and body parts, un-turnable by virtue of its bizarre animation, and also immune to charm, sleep, or hold spells, all illusions, and also gas attacks and poisons.  The mass claws, buffets, and bites at PCs.

Originally appeared in PC 2 - Top Ballista (1989).


The "divide by 4.5" rule gives it 24 HD.  We can beef this up as much as we'd like, though, to make it a true behemothic monstrosity.


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> This should be fun.
> 
> *Undead Mass:* AC 7; HD n/a; hp 111; #AT up to 12 (max 2 per PC); THAC0=15; Dmg 1d6 (bite, buffet, etc.) + 1d4 electrical damage (save vs. Spells for half damage); MV 30’ (10’); Save MU16; ML 12; AL N; XPs 3,000.




We'd have to do a lot to these things to make them Epic.

Something like a poor man's undead Hecatoncheires?

I also would fancy a lower-CR conversion, maybe a 16 HD Swarm of "electrified undead parts".

That makes me think, are their any Swarms in the Epic Level Handbook? I don't remember any...


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

I'm OK if the final product doesn't end up epic, but I'd at least like to make them really big (probably Gargantuan), with lots of attacks.

I'd be up for spawning off an additional swarm creature with a different name.

The only epic swarm is the Ruin Swarm.


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm OK if the final product doesn't end up epic, but I'd at least like to make them really big (probably Gargantuan), with lots of attacks.
> 
> I'd be up for spawning off an additional swarm creature with a different name.
> 
> The only epic swarm is the Ruin Swarm.




Dang it, I must have gone blind not to see "Swarm" in the names.

Okay, so let's we do a high-CR Gargantuan monster first and then a "swarm o' undead bits" version.

Might as well do the tough one first.

So far, we've got 24 Hit Dice and Gargantuan size but not much else.

Is there any monster you'd like to base it on?


----------



## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

None in particular.  I imagine it's a bit of blend of flesh jelly and darktentacles (replacing tentacles with other body parts).


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2010)

Some ideas:


Amorphous traits
Blindsight
Rather than creating spawn, assimilates corpses for extra attacks
Since it deals electrical damage, perhaps it is also is healed by it, like a flesh golem?
Maybe as a special attack it can string together a mass of limbs for extended reach?


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> None in particular.  I imagine it's a bit of blend of flesh jelly and darktentacles (replacing tentacles with other body parts).




Sounds OK. Shall we take a darktentacles, increase the size to Gargantuan and turn it into an 24 HD Undead?

Somewhat ironically, the 3rd edition _*Monster Manual II*_ darktentacles has slam attacks rather than tentacles, which I think is fine for the "Undead Mass".

That would give something like:

*Undead Mass*
Gargantuan Undead
*Hit Dice:* 24d12 (156 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor Class:** 21* (-4 size, +1 Dex, +14 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 20
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+36
*Attack:* Slam +20 melee (1d6+12) or battleaxe +20 melee (2d6+12/×3)
*Full Attack:* 24 slams +20 melee (1d6+12); or battleaxe +20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+12/×3) and 23 battleaxes +20 melee (2d6+6)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft
*Special Attacks:* Constrict 1d6+12?, enhanced multiweapon fighting, improved grab*?*
*Special Qualities:* All-around vision, blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +14*?*
*Abilities:* Str 35, Dex 13, Con —, Int *?*, Wis *?*, Cha *?*
*Skills:* *?*
*Feats:* 9
*Environment:* *?*
*Organization:* *?*
*Challenge Rating:* *?*
*Treasure:* *?*
*Alignment:* Always neutral evil
*Advancement:* 25-35 HD (Gargantuan); 36-72 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_Description._

Flavour Text.

Proficient in all simple or martial melee weapons?

Cannot speak but understands X?

*Combat*
When making a full attack, an undead mass has 1 attack per racial Hit Dice it possesses.

An undead mass can make up to three attacks at once against a Small or Medium-size opponent. Against a larger foe, it can make three additional attacks for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the creature can make only one attack at a time. It can make a maximum of three attacks against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area.

*Constrict (Ex): *

*Enhanced Multiweapon Fighting (Ex):* Can wield weapons in all its limbs simultaneously without attack penalty, within some size limit (up to Large-sized light or 1-handed weapons?).

*Improved Grab (Ex):* Maybe give it a racial bonus to grapple, and/or that "hold opponent at -10 instead of -20" ability?


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Some ideas:
> 
> 
> Amorphous traits
> ...




Those all sound good.

I'd add Fast Healing, assuming they can rearrange its "corpse bits" to repair damage.

Maybe give it some ranged offense - perhaps _chain lightning_ since it's all electrical?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm not fond of the idea of it wielding weapons.  I picture it as a mindless, crawling mass, just lashing out with its undead bits.  I'd also like to retain a nice mix of slams, claws, and bites like the original.

The Str seems fine, but I'm not sure about a Dex bonus.  

Maybe Str 35, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1?


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm not fond of the idea of it wielding weapons.  I picture it as a mindless, crawling mass, just lashing out with its undead bits.  I'd also like to retain a nice mix of slams, claws, and bites like the original.




How about we add a weapon-using "Battlefield Undead Mass" variant and leave the standard version with just bites and slams?

Oh, I forgot the electricity kicker on the slam attacks. It ought to be 1d6+12 plus xdx electricity. Maybe 1d6 electricity?



Shade said:


> The Str seems fine, but I'm not sure about a Dex bonus.
> 
> Maybe Str 35, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1?




I have no objection to the lower Dexterity.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I was going to give 'em an amorphous SQ, but all the benefits are covered by the undead type and all-around vision.  

I'd like to give 'em and even number of attacks of each type (as I currently have reflected on the attack lines).  However, I wonder if it shouldn't apply the same Str modifier to all of them (another SQ, perhaps?)  Maybe a variation on this?

Superior Multiweapon Fighting (Ex): A hecatoncheires fights with a greatsword or boulder in each hand. The hecatoncheires does not suffer an attack or damage penalty for attacking with one hundred weapons. However, the press of limbs prevents the creature from making iterative attacks with any of its arms, nor can it make more than ten attacks against a Small or smaller creature, fifteen attacks against a Medium creature, or twenty attacks against a Large creature in the same action (it can make all its attacks against a Huge or larger creature in one action).

For the "improved grapple", I'd favor just giving it a racial bonus on grapple checks due to its many limbs.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I was going to give 'em an amorphous SQ, but all the benefits are covered by the undead type and all-around vision.
> 
> ...




Sure, why not.

8 attacks per natural weapon with full Str bonus is fine by me.

+12 racial bonus to grapples?


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

Shall we give it improved grab to go along with that racial bonus on grapple checks?

I'm posting a few abilities for comparison:



> Superior Multiweapon Fighting (Ex): A hecatoncheires fights with a greatsword or boulder in each hand. The hecatoncheires does not suffer an attack or damage penalty for attacking with one hundred weapons. However, the press of limbs prevents the creature from making iterative attacks with any of its arms, nor can it make more than ten attacks against a Small or smaller creature, fifteen attacks against a Medium creature, or twenty attacks against a Large creature in the same action (it can make all its attacks against a Huge or larger creature in one action).






> A darktentacles can use only three tentacles at once against a Small or Medium-size opponent. Against a larger foe, it can use three additional tentacles for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided that it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the creature can use only one tentacle. It can use a maximum of three tentacles against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area.






> Enhanced Multiweapon Fighting (Ex): This ability lessens the penalty for off-hand weapon use by 2 for both primary and off hands. Combined with the Multidexterity and Multiweapon Fighting feats, this ability effectively negates all attack penalties for using one or more light off-hand weapons.




So, for the non-weapon wielding version, combine facets of both to give something like this?

Enhanced Multiattack (Ex):  An undead mass fights with a number of assimilated natural weapons. The undead mass does not suffer an attack or damage penalty for attacking with multiple natural weapons. An undead mass can use only four(?) natural attacks at once against a Small or Medium opponent. Against a larger foe, it can use four(?) additional natural attacks for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided that it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the undead mass can use only one natural attack. It can use a maximum of four(?) natural attacks against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Shall we give it improved grab to go along with that racial bonus on grapple checks?




Sure, why not.



Shade said:


> So, for the non-weapon wielding version, combine facets of both to give something like this?
> 
> Enhanced Multiattack (Ex):  An undead mass fights with a number of assimilated natural weapons. The undead mass does not suffer an attack or damage penalty for attacking with multiple natural weapons. An undead mass can use only four(?) natural attacks at once against a Small or Medium opponent. Against a larger foe, it can use four(?) additional natural attacks for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided that it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the undead mass can use only one natural attack. It can use a maximum of four(?) natural attacks against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area.




I prefer three attacks like a darktentacles.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2010)

Three's fine.  Updated.


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## freyar (Nov 4, 2010)

Looking pretty good!  Somehow this is how I imagine the big "lost souls" monster from the other thread...

Extend Reach (Ex): As a full-round action (?), an undead mass can extrude a conglomeration of limbs and dismembered flesh to make a single (or two??) melee slam? attack with a reach of X ft.


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## Shade (Nov 5, 2010)

Probably a single attack.  Rather than full-round, how about "full attack" or standard action?

I'd also prefer to allow it to attack with any attack form in this manner, depending on what body part is at the end of the limb mass.


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## Cleon (Nov 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Probably a single attack.  Rather than full-round, how about "full attack" or standard action?
> 
> I'd also prefer to allow it to attack with any attack form in this manner, depending on what body part is at the end of the limb mass.




I'd have it do extra-special damage and maybe give it a special name. e.g.
*
Charnel Flail (Ex):* As a standard attack, an undead mass can whip out a conglomeration of limbs and dismembered  flesh that makes a single bite, claw or slam attack (+20 melee) with a reach of 40  ft., which does 6d6+18 points of damage if it hits.


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## Shade (Nov 5, 2010)

Yeah, I'll buy that.

I also think we should note that it remains extended until its next turn, giving it extended reach for AoOs (but less AoOs, if it somehow has Combat Reflexes) during that time.


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## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I'll buy that.
> 
> I also think we should note that it remains extended until its next turn, giving it extended reach for AoOs (but less AoOs, if it somehow has Combat Reflexes) during that time.




I'd rather it was just a momentary "lash" and didn't gain extended reach for AoOs.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

I can live with that.  Updated.


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2010)

That works for me.  What else do they need?  Any more specials?


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> I can live with that.  Updated.




Looks good!

So what are we doing about "Assimilate Corpses"?


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2010)

Cleon said:


> So what are we doing about "Assimilate Corpses"?




I'm thinking at the very least it gains an additional natural attack possessed by the corpse.  Possibly healing, too?   Maybe something like the barghest's feed, where if it eats enough it gains a HD?


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## Cleon (Nov 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm thinking at the very least it gains an additional natural attack possessed by the corpse.  Possibly healing, too?   Maybe something like the barghest's feed, where if it eats enough it gains a HD?




I'm not so sure about assimilate corpse, since I don't think it fits the original concept of this thing as an undead engineered to just sit and act as a piece of "galvanic machinery". I imagine an necro-engineering coming along with a bag of spare parts and a _wand of lightning_ if it needed repairs. If it kept grabbing corpses and growing wouldn't it outgrow its engine housing?

You may remember I suggested giving it a forked lightning or chain lightning attack, mainly to give it some ranged offense. We could modify the special attack we came up with for the herding Shadowsponges.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2010)

I'm fine with dropping growth, but I'd like to keep the "assimilate corpse" to some extent, even if it simply can gain an extra natural attack for a short while (and perhaps temorary hp).  

The forked/chain lightning suggestion appeals.


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## Cleon (Nov 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with dropping growth, but I'd like to keep the "assimilate corpse" to some extent, even if it simply can gain an extra natural attack for a short while (and perhaps temorary hp).




Well it already gets temp HPs from absorbing electrical attacks, doesn't it?

I can live with an short-term extra natural attack.

Incidentally, I think the "grows stronger as it kills" schtick of assimilate corpse is a good fit for the "War Mass" version.



Shade said:


> The forked/chain lightning suggestion appeals.




Let's work something out once we're done with the Assimilation.


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2010)

Well, that's a good compromise: let's just give assimilate corpse to the war mass underbar version and give it an extra natural attack at no penalty for 10 rounds.  How's that?


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2010)

Sounds reasonable, although we might need to give the "war mass" its own writeup rather than an underbar if we keep boosting it.


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds reasonable, although we might need to give the "war mass" its own writeup rather than an underbar if we keep boosting it.



As you like.


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## Cleon (Nov 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds reasonable, although we might need to give the "war mass" its own writeup rather than an underbar if we keep boosting it.




Fine by me.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2010)

Shall we move on to the lightning attack?


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

Yup.  I think I'd be happy enough with just boosting the damage from the shadowsponge version.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

Me too.  How high shall we go?


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yup.  I think I'd be happy enough with just boosting the damage from the shadowsponge version.




That's what I'd do.



> *Lightning (Su):* A herd cloud can generate bolts of lightning.  Twice per day it can produce two 400-foot lines of lightning, each  dealing 6d6 points of electricity damage. These "twinned" lightning  bolts cannot overlap. Once per day a herd cloud can produce a lightning  bolt that strikes a target within 400 feet for 9d6 points of electricity  damage and then forks out to hit all targets within 30 feet of the  initial target for 4d6 electricity damage, in a similar fashion to a _chain lightning_ spell. A DC 22 Reflex save halves the damage of any bolt. The save DCs are Constitution-based.




18d6 for the "twinned" bolts, 24d6 plus 12d6 forks for the "chained" bolts?


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

Looks good.  Updated.


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2010)

Looks good.  Are we doing anything else with these?


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good.  Are we doing anything else with these?




Well weren't we going to give them extra attacks as they advance. I suppose something like "for every 3 hit dice an undead mass advances it gains an additional bite, claw and slam attack.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2010)

I can go with that.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I can go with that.




Throw in the Advancing attacks and I think that'll do for the basic model.

Just need to update it and correct any errors we can find, then we can move on to the battlefield version.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2010)

Updated.

We'll need to whip up some flavor text and tactics.

Environment: Any?

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 18-20?

An undead mass is about x feet in diameter and weighs roughly x pounds.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> We'll need to whip up some flavor text and tactics.
> 
> ...




That environments and organization fits.

I think they look like a CR 18.

25 foot diameter and 3 to 8 feet in height?

A back of the envelope calculation suggest 75,000 to 90,000 pounds weight, assuming about half is space between the crammed-together corpses.

Call it 40 tons?


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2010)

Updated.

Do the flavor text and tactics look OK?


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Do the flavor text and tactics look OK?




Hmm, the tactics are fine but the original monster was used as a component in a giant necromantic engine. I'd like to include that in the flavour text, e.g.:

An undead mass is a vile undead conglomeration created by the most  twisted of necromancers.  Undead masses are primarily used as guardians and slayers, who are occasionally unleashed upon small villages and similar  settlements to sow fear and chaos. They can also be used as brute labourers or as necromantic engines: some great magical machines have an undead mass built inside, whose many strong arms and electrical energy power the device. Should such a death machine be destroyed, the undead mass inside will smash its way out and attack.

Greater undead masses are known to  exist.  These "battlefield undead masses" wield weapons and subsume the  slain to increase their own bulk and prowess.


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2010)

Looking good to me!


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2010)

Updated.

For the battlefield mass, start with the same HD?


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2010)

If it's just an underbar, definitely.


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## Cleon (Dec 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> If it's just an underbar, definitely.




I thought we'd decided we'd added enough stuff to the Battlemass to make it a separate monster?


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I thought we'd decided we'd added enough stuff to the Battlemass to make it a separate monster?




We did.  I just left it as an underbar so we wouldn't have to dig back through the thread when the time comes (which it now has).

So, start with same HD and ability scores as undead mass?


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2010)

I guess I'd prefer bumping them a few HD and shifting the advancement accordingly, say starting at 30 HD.  But I don't particularly care.


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> We did.  I just left it as an underbar so we wouldn't have to dig back through the thread when the time comes (which it now has).
> 
> So, start with same HD and ability scores as undead mass?




I'd keep the starting Hit Dice the same but give the ability scores a bit of a boost. 

Str 38, Dex 13, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1 ?


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

We'll need to equip it with weapons, obviously.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2010)

Well, the easiest thing to do would be to pick 8 weapons of the same type and do "primary longsword" (or whatever) and 7 "secondary longswords" like the marilith, I guess.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, the easiest thing to do would be to pick 8 weapons of the same type and do "primary longsword" (or whatever) and 7 "secondary longswords" like the marilith, I guess.




Agreed!  The alternative is...painful.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2010)

Stick to longswords as the most common weapon they'll find?  Or shortswords or whatever?  Or do we want to pick something a little more interesting?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2010)

Sickles or picks?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2010)

Sickles sound fun!


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sickles sound fun!




If I remember correctly, my first rough draft used Large battleaxes. I still like those. Although now I like Gargantuan throwing axes even better, since they allow for ranged attacks as well.

That would work out something like:

*Attack:* Throwing axe +22 melee (3d6+14) or bite +22 melee (1d6+14 plus 1d6 electricity) or claw +22 melee  (1d4+14 plus 1d6 electricity) or slam +22 melee  (1d4+14 plus 1d6 electricity) or throwing axe +9 ranged (3d6+14)
*Full Attack:* Throwing axe +22/+17/+12 melee (3d6+14) and 7 throwing axes +22 melee (3d6+14) and 8 bites +22 melee (1d6+14 plus 1d6 electricity) and 8 claws  +22 melee (1d4+14 plus 1d6 electricity); *or* 8 bites +22 melee (1d6+14 plus 1d6 electricity) and 8 claws  +22 melee (1d4+14 plus 1d6 electricity) and 8 slams +22 melee (1d4+14  plus 1d6 electricity); or 8 throwing axes  +9 ranged (3d6+14)

Chop! Chop! Chop! Chop! Chop! Chop! Chop! Chop!

Hmm, although if substitute Gargantuan tridents for the light axes then the melee and ranged damages become 4d6+14, which is even better. 

Spike! Spike! Spike! Spike! Spike! Spike! Spike! Spike!


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## freyar (Dec 13, 2010)

Oooh, I like the idea of throwing axes or even tridents.  Hehehehe.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2010)

Tridents sound fun, and are woefully underused outside of aquatic settings and gladiatorial arenas.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2010)

Updated.

Should metal weapons conduct its electricity as well, like this creature?

Shock (Ex): A temperament generates so much electricity that its mere touch deals additional electricity damage. Temperaments' metallic weapons also conduct this electricity.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2010)

As long as the handles, etc, are metal.  Need to specify that, right?


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.




I was thinking about adding an armor bonus, based on the idea that the corpses that make up the Battlefield Mass are all wearing armour, and the mass itself is coated with more armour (including broken shields & weapons as well as actual armour).



Shade said:


> Should metal weapons conduct its electricity as well, like this creature?
> 
> Shock (Ex): A temperament generates so much electricity that its mere touch deals additional electricity damage. Temperaments' metallic weapons also conduct this electricity.




Sure, why not add the *shocking* truth.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking about adding an armor bonus, based on the idea that the corpses that make up the Battlefield Mass are all wearing armour, and the mass itself is coated with more armour (including broken shields & weapons as well as actual armour).




Me likey.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2010)

Me, too.  Start with +10 (or lower?), add +1 per 3 HD advanced?


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Me, too.  Start with +10 (or lower?), add +1 per 3 HD advanced?




That doesn't seem unreasonable, AC32 is fairly modest for a CR 18 monster.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2010)

That works for me as well.   Something like this?

Integrated Armor (Ex):  Most corpses a battlefield mass absorbs are armored, and as a result, bits and pieces of armor are integrated into its mass.  When combined with the weapon fragments that dot its hide, this grants the battlefield undead mass a +10 armor bonus.  This bonus increases by +1 for each 3 additional hit dice the mass gains.


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> That works for me as well.   Something like this?
> 
> Integrated Armor (Ex):  Most corpses a battlefield mass absorbs are armored, and as a result, bits and pieces of armor are integrated into its mass.  When combined with the weapon fragments that dot its hide, this grants the battlefield undead mass a +10 armor bonus.  This bonus increases by +1 for each 3 additional hit dice the mass gains.




Looks good to me.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2010)

Go ahead and put it in.   And that electricity damage with metal weapons, as well.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

Updated.

2 greater CR than the standard undead mass?


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2010)

Sure thing.  All done?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

Pending Cleon's final lookover.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Pending Cleon's final lookover.




I'm happy with it.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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