# Converting "generic setting" second edition monsters



## BOZ (Nov 10, 2004)

This thread continues my idea of “cooperative conversions” started in this thread, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that first appeared in various AD&D 2nd Edition products.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

For this thread, I will only be concerned with monsters from “generic setting” products: boxed sets, hardcover books, accessories and modules not tied to any specific campaign setting. Monsters from specific settings such as Planescape, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms already have, or will have a thread of their own.  Monsters from Dungeon and Dragon Magazines likewise have their own threads, as does the Monstrous Compendium series.

The following is a list of monsters from these 2nd Edition products that haven’t yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog. You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when. If I’m missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.


*Legends & Lore – TSR 2108 (1990)*
- _American Indian Mythology_
Big Head
Gahonga
Ohdowa
- _Chinese Monsters_
Neglected Spirit, Ancestral
Generals of the Animal Spirits
- _Japanese Monsters_
Tanuki
Hannya

*Wizard’s Challenge – TSR 9359 (1992)*
Spectral Wizard

*Celts – TSR 9376 (1992)*
Sidhe
Boobrie
Fachan
Phouka
Water Horse
Water Leaper

*The Glory of Rome – TSR 9425 (1993)*
Caladrius

*Dragon Mountain – TSR 1089 (1993)*
Brain Spider
Dwarven Undead
Gnasher
Kobold, Dragon Mountain
Noran
Rautym
Stone Snake
Suwyze

*Chronomancer  - TSR 9506 (1995)*
Chronovoid
Temporal Dog
Temporal Glider
Temporal Stalker
Time Dimensionals
Vortex Spider

*Shaman – TSR 9507 (1995)*
Ancestors
Bloodspirit
Bogeyman, Greater
Bogeyman, Lesser
Fenette
Fetish Spirit
Ghost Pack
Great Spirit
Guardian Spirit
Hero Spirit
Nemesis Spirit
Rogue Hero
Sith
Spirits, Minor
Strigloi
Totem Spirit

*Return to the Tomb of Horrors – TSR 1162 (1998)*
Negative Energy Elemental
Negative Fundamental

*Axe of the Dwarvish Lords – TSR 11347 (1999)*
Aquatic Lernaean Hydra
Dwarf Crusher
Tomb Warden

*Return to White Plume Mountain – TSR 11434 (1999)*
Burning Golem
Crab Swarm
Elevated Ghoul
Leviathan
Mold Wyrm
Skin Puppet


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## Knight Otu (Nov 10, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> *Wizard’s Challenge – TSR 9359 (1992)*
> Spectral Wizard



 There is a spectral mage template in Magic of Faerûn. Not sure if it is related?



> *The Illithiad – TSR 9569 (1198)*
> Neothelid



 Psionics Handbook and Expanded Psionics Handbook.



> *Return to the Tomb of Horrors – TSR 1162 (1998)*
> Moilian Zombie



 Heard that one of the creatures in Libris Mortis is similar. Don't really know.



> *Return to White Plume Mountain – TSR 11434 (1999)*
> Leviathan



 Different leviathan than the one in MM2?


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## HalWhitewyrm (Nov 10, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> *Celts – TSR 9376 (1992)*
> Fachan



Give me about a week more. I will be releasing Bardic Lore: The Fachan at RPGNow.com. It will include 3.5 stats for the fachan, as well as a fachan paragon class and a fully stated NPC ready to stomp on your PCs.

Here's a teaser of the illustrations for the PDF. Click on it to see a larger pic:




Check out our website for more info: www.HighmoonMedia.com.


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## BOZ (Nov 10, 2004)

This creature will be the first one for this thread, as I promised to do it – what, like almost a year ago?  Well, it’s long overdue regardless.

OK, first thing’s first, we need to decide on the creature type.  Is this thing, as a “semi-undead” really an Undead, or should it be an Aberration?


APODALYPSE

Progeny
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Cluster
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night, Dark
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1d4
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 9, Sw 12
HIT DICE: 3+3
THACO: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4+2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Subsume
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Magical weapons to harm
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (2' long)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 650

Apodalypse
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Marine
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: E, R
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: Sw 9
HIT DICE: 13
THACO: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4d6/1d8 (x4)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallow
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Magical weapons to harm
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 35%
SIZE: H (30' d.)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 5,000

The apodalypse is the fruit of a misguided experiment gone horribly wrong. The combination of necromantically animated shark tissue implanted in still living humans birthed an aquatic monstrosity that requires the flesh of living creatures to retain its form and "life." The progeny are the half-living offspring of the apodalypse.

Progeny normally hang in tight coils of squamous flesh that look like wasp nests formed by a single coiled snake. When unfurled, progeny generally reach 2 feet in length, resembling eyeless serpents with sharklike mouths filled with row after row of sharp teeth.

Combat: Progeny can remain in their dormant, hanging state for years, perhaps even centuries. However, when disturbed by living humanoids, they attack. Progeny prefer to drop onto unsuspecting victims from above, but once active, their coiled lengths can propel them up to 20 feet through the air (they can swim through water) to deliver a vicious bite once per round.

On a successful bite attack, progeny hang on and begin to burrow into the victim toward the spinal column automatically inflicting 1d4+2 hit points per round. If left unmolested, burrowing progeny reach their goal within 1d4+2 rounds, whereupon the insipid creatures automatically paralyze their hosts. This allows a progeny to begin the process of subsumption; it attempts to digest and then replace both the spinal column and lower brain stem of a victim. The process of subsumption requires 6 full rounds and inflicts 2d4+2 hit points per round upon the victim.

Since the progeny are partially undead, they are affected by clerical Turning (as ghasts). During an attack or while burrowing, successful Turning only causes a progeny to freeze up for one round, after which it continues to attack or burrow. Progeny which are successfully Turned while subsuming a victim's spinal column are permanently destroyed. Applying a burning torch (or applying something similarly harmful) to a burrowing progeny inflicts 1d6 hit points per round on both it and its victim, but better a few burns than to allow the progeny to complete its activities.

As semi-undead, progeny are damaged only by +1 or better weapons and are unaffected by sleep, charm, hold or cold-based spells. In addition, they cannot be harmed by poisons or paralyzation attacks.

Ecology: If subsumption is successful, the victim is irrevocably lost, and the progeny takes possession of the still-living husk. If allowed the time to slowly incorporate the recently acquired flesh, it transforms itself (over a month's time) into an apodalypse with minimum hit points.

APODALYPSE
This nightmare creature has a fluid shape consisting of the stolen flesh of the many organisms that go to make up its body. The skin of humanoids with screaming faces and flailing arms contrast with fish scales, octopoidal tentacles, and manta wings. The only constant in the patchwork whole that makes up an apodalypse is its massive sharklike maw. The entire creature measures 30 feet in diameter.

Combat: This creature attacks mainly with its savage bite, delivering an awesome 4d6 hit points of damage. What's worse, if the apodalypse's attack succeeds by 4 or more over the minimum number needed to hit, the victim has been swallowed whole! Those who are swallowed must roll a successful saving throw vs. death magic or be instantly killed. Those who succeed are still trapped inside the creature and must roll this saving throw again the following round, and every thereafter, until they fail a roll or are extracted from the beast. The only way to extract a character swallowed by the apodalypse is to destroy the creature. Dead characters inside the beast have their still-living flesh cannibalized and incorporated into the body of the apodalypse (see ecology).

Every time an apodalypse successfully incorporates a swallowed creature into itself, the remaining hit points of the victim are immediately transferred to that of the apodalypse – up to 150% of the monster's maximum.

The creature has four secondary attacks from the various limbs, claws, fins, and mouths of its stolen mishmash of a body. The creature is large enough to bite one foe and direct its subsidiary attacks against two additional prey.

Apodalypses are Turned as ghasts, but a successful Turning attempt merely paralyzes them for one round. They are damaged only by +1 or better weapons, and they are unaffected by sleep, charm, hold or cold-based spells. In addition, they cannot be harmed by poisons or paralyzation attacks. Finally, they possess an inherent 35% magical resistance.

Ecology: The unholy tome titled The Nekton Fragments bears the formulae and recipes responsible for creating this creature with an undead "core" that is sheathed in a husk of still-living flesh. Because of the dichotomy between life and unlife, the living portions of the creature are constantly disintegrating and falling away; it is necessary for the apodalypse to renew its form on a regular basis. It remains unmoving for days at a time, conserving its stolen flesh for as long as possible before it is forced to acquire additional material to maintain itself. Every creature it swallows is digested in such away that the flesh temporarily remains faintly living, even though incorporated into the body of the beast. In times of plenty, the apodalypse releases a clutch (1d6) of progeny, each of which has the potential to become a full fledged apodalypse.


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## BOZ (Nov 10, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> There is a spectral mage template in Magic of Faerûn. Not sure if it is related?




me either.  



> Psionics Handbook and Expanded Psionics Handbook.




right.    i suspected as much, but was not sure.



> Heard that one of the creatures in Libris Mortis is similar. Don't really know.




could someone confirm that for me?



> Different leviathan than the one in MM2?




absolutely no idea.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 10, 2004)

Sounds more like an Undead to me. If there were Undead (Living), it would be a perfect fit.


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## Alzrius (Nov 11, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> could someone confirm that for me?




The Bleakborn entry in _Libris Mortis_ is the Moilian Zombie. It even says in the entry that Bleakborn are also referred to as "Moil zombies".


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## Alzrius (Nov 11, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, first thing’s first, we need to decide on the creature type.  Is this thing, as a “semi-undead” really an Undead, or should it be an Aberration?




My advice is to treat the apodalypse using the half-undead features from _Dragon_ #313. While the four half-undead presented there were specific templates, I think the sidebar that listed the half-undead traits might be the way to go. Using that, it has a collection of special qualities, but remains essentially living...hence, an Aberration.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2004)

I'd recommend going with aberration, and giving it some undead traits as a special quality (similar to how many creatures have ooze traits even though they aren't oozes).


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## BOZ (Nov 11, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Sounds more like an Undead to me. If there were Undead (Living), it would be a perfect fit.




heh, if only…  I was also considering Deathless, but I’m not sure if that’s OGC or even appropriate here.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The Bleakborn entry in Libris Mortis is the Moilian Zombie. It even says in the entry that Bleakborn are also referred to as "Moil zombies".




good enough for me.  Does that also include the Moilian Heart?



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> My advice is to treat the apodalypse using the half-undead features from Dragon #313. While the four half-undead presented there were specific templates, I think the sidebar that listed the half-undead traits might be the way to go. Using that, it has a collection of special qualities, but remains essentially living...hence, an Aberration.




I don’t have that one (or at least not handy); could someone post the pertinent information?


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## Filby (Nov 11, 2004)

Oh, huzzah! The conversions begin again!!!

I'm for making them aberrations with half-undead traits from _Dragon_ #313. For ease of reference, if that's what you'd like to do...


Call of Undeath (Ex): There is a 3% chance per Hit Die that, upon a half-undead's death, it will rise as a full undead creature of its undead progenitor's kind. _(I think this would be left out as they're not created by an undead creature.)_
Darkvision (Ex): A half-undead gains darkvision with a range of 60 feet. If the base creature already had darkvision, use the greater range. _(Yep, aberration traits already give it darkvision 60 ft.)_
Detection (Ex): Half-undead register as undead creatures for the purposes of spells and effects that detect undead (such as _detect undead_). A half-undead counts as half its HD for the purposes of aura strength.
Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the half-undead, there is a 50% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated, and damage is instead rolled normally. If a half-undead wears magic armor with any form of fortification quality, use the better percentage value.
Immunity to Energy Drain (Ex): A half-undead is immune to energy drain attacks.
Necrotic Life (Ex): Even on a failed save, a half-undead suffers only half damage from spells or effects that deal hit point damage due to negative energy, such as _inflict_ spells, and with a successful save, a half-undead suffers no damage.
Slow Aging (Ex): Upon reaching maturity, a half-undead ages at one-fourth of the base creature's normal rate. _(We wouldn't need to note this.)_
Turn Kind (Ex): A half-undead cleric gains a +2 bonus on checks made to turn, rebuke, command, or bolster undead creatures of its ancestral kind. _(Once again, they have no ancestral kind, so there's no need to point this out.)_
Vulnerability to Holy Water (Ex): Holy water scalds the flesh of a half-undead, dealing 1d4 points of damage per direct hit with a flask.
Vulnerability to Turning (Ex): Any turning attempt targeting the half-undead that would turn or rebuke an undead of the half-undead's HD imposes a -4 penalty on the half-undead's attacks, saves, skill checks, and ability checks. This effect lasts for 10 rounds or until the creature that turned or rebuked the half-undead attacks the half-undead. A turn attempt that would destroy or command an undead of equivalent Hit Dice instead stuns a half-undead for 2d4 rounds.
Saves: A half-undead creature gains a +2 racial bonus on saves against fear, poison, disease, paralysis, and spells from the necromancy school.


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## BOZ (Nov 11, 2004)

thanks filby... your help is appreciated as always.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Yugoloth, Least Guardian, Yagdoo



Sweet, a forgotten yugoloth!    I'd like to vote for this fella for an upcoming conversion.

Do you Yagdoo?


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## BOZ (Nov 11, 2004)

hehe    i'll keep that in mind, but remind me later all the same.  

As posted by filby, I’m keeping these parts as-is (with some slight alterations):
Undead Aura (Ex): An apodalypse registers as an undead creature for the purposes of spells and effects that detect undead (such as detect undead). An apodalypse counts as half its HD for the purposes of aura strength.
Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on an apodalypse, there is a 50% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated, and damage is instead rolled normally.
Necrotic Life (Ex): Even on a failed save, an apodalypse suffers only half damage from spells or effects that deal hit point damage due to negative energy, such as inflict spells, and with a successful save, a apodalypse suffers no damage.
Vulnerability to Holy Water (Ex): Holy water scalds the flesh of an apodalypse, dealing 1d4 points of damage per direct hit with a flask.

Some things to change:
For the turning, it is listed that both apodalypse and progeny are “paralyzed” or “frozen” for one round when turned.  Let’s rework that a bit like this:
Vulnerability to Turning (Ex): Any turning attempt targeting an apodalypse that would turn or rebuke an undead of the apodalypse's HD dazes the apodalypse for 1 round. A turn attempt that would destroy or command an undead of equivalent Hit Dice instead stuns an apodalypse for 2d4 rounds.

The apodalypse is listed as immune to sleep, charm, hold, cold, poison, and paralyzation. I would nix the immunity to energy drain, and replace it with this:
Unliving Immunities (Ex): An apodalypse is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, and death effects.  An apodalypse is not subject to ability drain or energy drain.  An apodalypse is immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.

I could probably add more on to those immunities, but I figure that is enough for now. 

and here are a couple stat blocks to start 'er off:

*Apodalypse, Progeny*
Small Aberration (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 3d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), swim 30 ft
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d4+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d4+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: subsume
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/magic?, darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str (14+?), Dex X, Con (12+), Int (0 or 1?), Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Cluster (1-4)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: ---


An apodalypse progeny is about 2 feet long and weighs X pounds.

COMBAT


*Apodalypse*
Huge Aberration (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 13d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: Swim 20 ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-2 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (4d6+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (4d6+X) and 4 extra limbs +X melee (1d8+X)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: swallow, extra limbs
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/magic?, darkvision 60 ft, spell resistance (18+)
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int (6?), Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 5

Environment: Any aquatic and underground
Organization: Solitary or clutch (1 apodalypse plus 1-6 progeny)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double standard?
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 14-26 HD (Huge); 27-39 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---


An apodalypse is about 30 feet in diameter and weighs X pounds.

COMBAT


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## Hashmalum (Nov 11, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Return to the Tomb of Horrors – TSR 1162 (1998)
> Moilian Heart
> Moilian Zombie
> Negative Energy Elemental
> ...



The Vestige is also in Libris Mortis.


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## BOZ (Nov 11, 2004)

man, i really need a good look at that book.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 11, 2004)

I'd guess that Swallow should become Improved Grab, Swallow Whole and a (Energy Drain)-like ability, a la the nightcrawler nightshade.


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## BOZ (Nov 11, 2004)

Quite correct. I’d say the damage section should be removed from the swallow whole though, as since this creature does not digest in any normal sort of way.  Also, the text states that the only way to get out is to destroy the apodalypse – should we use that or keep the standard “cut through the stomach with a light weapon” routine?

Another thing would be to make it more like the tendriculous’ swallow attack, and keep the energy draining part within the swallow whole.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an apodalypse must hit with its bite attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex): An apodalypse can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Large or smaller size by making a successful grapple check.  The swallowed creature (is drained).  (A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal X points of damage to the apodalypse’s gut (AC X).  Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.)
An apodalypse’s interior can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents.


As for the draining effect, we could go with either of these options, depending on what works the best:

Living creatures inside an apodalypse’s interior gain X negative level(s) each round.  The DC is X for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level.  The save DC is (Charisma)-based.  For each such negative level bestowed, the apodalypse gains X temporary hit points.

Once inside the apodalypse’s mass, the opponent must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or die immediately.  A new save is required each round inside the monster. This is a death effect. The save DC is (Charisma?)-based.  The apodalypse gains 1 temporary hit point for every hit point the victim had when it died, but it cannot have more hit points than one and a half times its normal maximum.


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## Alzrius (Nov 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> good enough for me.  Does that also include the Moilian Heart?




Actually, no. That creature wasn't in the book.



			
				Hashmalum said:
			
		

> The Vestige is also in Libris Mortis.




Yep. It's under the "Dream Vestige" entry. It even notes that the Vestige from RttToH was the original one.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Quite correct. I’d say the damage section should be removed from the swallow whole though, as since this creature does not digest in any normal sort of way. Also, the text states that the only way to get out is to destroy the apodalypse – should we use that or keep the standard “cut through the stomach with a light weapon” routine?



There is precedent for "deal enough damage to kill the creature" to escape.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As for the draining effect, we could go with either of these options, depending on what works the best:
> 
> Living creatures inside an apodalypse’s interior gain X negative level(s) each round. The DC is X for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is (Charisma)-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the apodalypse gains X temporary hit points.
> 
> Once inside the apodalypse’s mass, the opponent must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or die immediately. A new save is required each round inside the monster. This is a death effect. The save DC is (Charisma?)-based. The apodalypse gains 1 temporary hit point for every hit point the victim had when it died, but it cannot have more hit points than one and a half times its normal maximum.



I prefer the former.


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## Echohawk (Nov 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> If I’m missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.




Hey Boz,

Here are a few more loose monsters from 2nd Edition products that I don't think have been converted yet. Some of these might be on the other conversion threads though -- I didn't check those.

*Complete Psionics Handbook (PHBR5)*
Cerebral Parasite, p116 (might also be in the Planescape thread?)
Vagabond, p122

*Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga*
Baba Yaga, p61 (but I'm sure I've seen a conversion somewhere already)

*I, Tyrant*
Beholder Mount, Patroller, 81

*Guide to Hell*
Devil, Mezzikim, p63 (might also be in the Planescape thread)

*Vortex of Madness and Other Planar Perils*
Leonis's Automata, Flyer, p46
Leonis's Automata, Juggernaut, p46
Leonis's Automata, Organ Gun, p46 (these might also be in the Planescape thread)


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## BOZ (Nov 12, 2004)

thanks Echohawk.    I don’t mind a little overlap here and there.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> There is precedent for "deal enough damage to kill the creature" to escape.




true, but for this once I was considering the possibility of, since the original description says the victims cannot escape, of leaving it at that.  Perhaps there is a magical reason, or the stomach is lined with adamantine or something.  However, if this is unfair, I can always go with the standard line and just make the damage needed to escape be respectfully high.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I prefer the former.




oh, so no instant death effects for you eh?


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## Knight Otu (Nov 12, 2004)

I think Shade was actually saying that there are creatures where you can only escape if it is killed. Not that I could name any.

 I also prefer the former.


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## BOZ (Nov 12, 2004)

well fine then, energy drain it is.

and i didn't catch shade's meaning the first time around, assuming that is what he meant.    if so shade, which creature(s) set the aforementioned precedent?


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2004)

Knight is right.

One such critter is the ice toad from OA and more recently, Frostburn:

"A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing weapon to kill the toad from the inside (AC 13)."


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## BOZ (Nov 13, 2004)

Now that is wicked awesome.  

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures inside an apodalypse’s interior gain X negative level(s) each round. The DC is X for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is (Charisma)-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the apodalypse gains X temporary hit points.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an apodalypse must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex): An apodalypse can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Large or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent is subject to the creature’s energy drain. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to kill the apodalypse from the inside (AC X). 
An apodalypse’s interior can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents.


there is also this to contend with:
“The creature has four secondary attacks from the various limbs, claws, fins, and mouths of its stolen mishmash of a body. The creature is large enough to bite one foe and direct its subsidiary attacks against two additional prey.” 

Each “extra limb” does 1d8 base damage regardless of the type.  This should be simple to solve.  Essentially, the poddy has 4 random attacks each round from a slam, claw, bite, tail slap, sting, gore, tentacle, wing, blah blah etc.  the only real difference between them is the type of damage dealt. 


As for the progeny, it has an entirely different sort of attack form:

“On a successful bite attack, progeny hang on and begin to burrow into the victim toward the spinal column automatically inflicting 1d4+2 hit points per round. If left unmolested, burrowing progeny reach their goal within 1d4+2 rounds, whereupon the insipid creatures automatically paralyze their hosts. This allows a progeny to begin the process of subsumption; it attempts to digest and then replace both the spinal column and lower brain stem of a victim. The process of subsumption requires 6 full rounds and inflicts 2d4+2 hit points per round upon the victim.

Progeny which are successfully Turned while subsuming a victim's spinal column are permanently destroyed. Applying a burning torch (or applying something similarly harmful) to a burrowing progeny inflicts 1d6 hit points per round on both it and its victim, but better a few burns than to allow the progeny to complete its activities.”


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> there is also this to contend with:
> “The creature has four secondary attacks from the various limbs, claws, fins, and mouths of its stolen mishmash of a body. The creature is large enough to bite one foe and direct its subsidiary attacks against two additional prey.”
> 
> Each “extra limb” does 1d8 base damage regardless of the type. This should be simple to solve. Essentially, the poddy has 4 random attacks each round from a slam, claw, bite, tail slap, sting, gore, tentacle, wing, blah blah etc. the only real difference between them is the type of damage dealt.



Yeah, that sounds about right.   Perhaps a table with a random list of attack forms and the type of damage dealt? 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As for the progeny, it has an entirely different sort of attack form:
> 
> “On a successful bite attack, progeny hang on and begin to burrow into the victim toward the spinal column automatically inflicting 1d4+2 hit points per round. If left unmolested, burrowing progeny reach their goal within 1d4+2 rounds, whereupon the insipid creatures automatically paralyze their hosts. This allows a progeny to begin the process of subsumption; it attempts to digest and then replace both the spinal column and lower brain stem of a victim. The process of subsumption requires 6 full rounds and inflicts 2d4+2 hit points per round upon the victim.
> 
> Progeny which are successfully Turned while subsuming a victim's spinal column are permanently destroyed. Applying a burning torch (or applying something similarly harmful) to a burrowing progeny inflicts 1d6 hit points per round on both it and its victim, but better a few burns than to allow the progeny to complete its activities.”



I know I've seen a creature like this.    Got it...the hoard scarab from Draconomicon.  

Burrow (Ex): If a hoard scarab hits a Small or larger living creature with a bite attack (or if a hoard scarab swarm hits with its swarm attack), on its next turn it can attempt to burrow into the target's flesh. The target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 11 for an individual scarab, or DC 14 for a swarm) to prevent the hoard scarab from burrowing in (a helpless creature can't prevent the burrowing). If the save fails, each round thereafter the target takes 1d2 points of Constitution damage (from an individual scarab) or 2d4 points of Constitution damage (from a swarm of scarabs).

A hoard scarab doesn't leave a target until the target is dead. Once a hoard scarab has burrowed into its target, it can be destroyed by any effect that would cure a disease, such as remove disease or heal. (A single spell eliminates all burrowing hoard scarabs, though it gives no protection against further burrowings.)

Creatures with immunity to disease, as well as those with a natural armor bonus (including enhancement) of +3 or better, are immune to a hoard scarab's burrowing attack.


----------



## Alzrius (Nov 14, 2004)

BOZ, you mentioned over on the other thread about this that you hadn't seen the new monster in _Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff_ (which, admittedly, is a GH product, but still). The monster is the *Horag*, and is found on page 91. Horags are the result of a crossbreeding between an ogre and a hill giant.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 14, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, that sounds about right. Perhaps a table with a random list of attack forms and the type of damage dealt?




I could swear I've seen something like this somewhere before.  I kind of prefer to avoid random lists.  Let me give this a start: 

"Extra Limbs (Ex): An apodalypse has a multitude of appendages on its body stolen from previous victims it has incorporated into its body.  It may use up to four of these at random in any given round, which usually consists of a slam, claw, bite, sting, gore, tentacle, tail slap, or wing.  Each such attack form deals 1d8 points of damage of the appropriate type." 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I know I've seen a creature like this. Got it...the hoard scarab from Draconomicon.
> 
> Burrow (Ex): If a hoard scarab hits a Small or larger living creature with a bite attack (or if a hoard scarab swarm hits with its swarm attack), on its next turn it can attempt to burrow into the target's flesh. The target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 11 for an individual scarab, or DC 14 for a swarm) to prevent the hoard scarab from burrowing in (a helpless creature can't prevent the burrowing). If the save fails, each round thereafter the target takes 1d2 points of Constitution damage (from an individual scarab) or 2d4 points of Constitution damage (from a swarm of scarabs).
> 
> ...




Creepy.   that reminds me of a magic item from previous editions which was much nastier, the Scarab of Death. 

How big was the hoard scarab?   

Burrow (Ex): If an apodalypse progeny hits a X-size or larger living creature with a bite attack, on its next turn it can attempt to burrow into the target's flesh. The target may attempt a DC X Reflex save to prevent the progeny from burrowing in (a helpless creature can't prevent the burrowing). If the save fails, each round thereafter the target takes 2d4? points of (Constitution?) damage.  The save DC is X-based. 

If any damage is dealt to a burrowing progeny, the creature it is burrowing into takes the same amount of damage. 

Subsume (Su?): A burrowing apodalypse progeny will reach a creature's spinal column in 1d4+2 rounds, at which point the host will be paralyzed.  At this point, the progeny will begin to digest and replace the spinal column and lower brain stem of the victim.  The process of subsumption takes 6 full rounds, inflicting 2d6? hit points of damage upon the victim per round.  At the end of 6 full rounds, the victim is permanently dead and the progeny takes possession of the body. 

Any successful turning attempt on a progeny that is subsuming its host will kill the progeny instantly and end the subsumption. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> BOZ, you mentioned over on the other thread about this that you hadn't seen the new monster in Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff (which, admittedly, is a GH product, but still). The monster is the Horag, and is found on page 91. Horags are the result of a crossbreeding between an ogre and a hill giant.




OK, I gotcha.  I thought I had put this one on my Greyhawk list, but I guess I hadn't.


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I could swear I've seen something like this somewhere before. I kind of prefer to avoid random lists. Let me give this a start:
> 
> "Extra Limbs (Ex): An apodalypse has a multitude of appendages on its body stolen from previous victims it has incorporated into its body. It may use up to four of these at random in any given round, which usually consists of a slam, claw, bite, sting, gore, tentacle, tail slap, or wing. Each such attack form deals 1d8 points of damage of the appropriate type."



While random lists are bad, how else will we determined whether an attack deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Creepy.  that reminds me of a magic item from previous editions which was much nastier, the Scarab of Death.
> 
> How big was the hoard scarab?



It is Fine (about the size of a coin).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Burrow (Ex): If an apodalypse progeny hits a X-size or larger living creature with a bite attack, on its next turn it can attempt to burrow into the target's flesh. The target may attempt a DC X Reflex save to prevent the progeny from burrowing in (a helpless creature can't prevent the burrowing). If the save fails, each round thereafter the target takes 2d4? points of (Constitution?) damage. The save DC is X-based.
> 
> If any damage is dealt to a burrowing progeny, the creature it is burrowing into takes the same amount of damage.



Lookin' good. 2d4 Con sounds appropriate for its size. DC appears to be Con-based for the hoard scarab.   I'd recommend reducing the progeny to Tiny, and saying that they can burrow into Medium or larger creatures.   A Small creature burrowing into a Medium creature seems a bit farfetched, and if we limit them to affecting larger creatures, it sorta takes the threat away from most characters.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Subsume (Su?): A burrowing apodalypse progeny will reach a creature's spinal column in 1d4+2 rounds, at which point the host will be paralyzed. At this point, the progeny will begin to digest and replace the spinal column and lower brain stem of the victim. The process of subsumption takes 6 full rounds, inflicting 2d6? hit points of damage upon the victim per round. At the end of 6 full rounds, the victim is permanently dead and the progeny takes possession of the body.
> 
> Any successful turning attempt on a progeny that is subsuming its host will kill the progeny instantly and end the subsumption.



"Permanently dead"... heh, heh.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 15, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> While random lists are bad, how else will we determined whether an attack deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?




each attack would deal the type of damage as listed in the MM p312.  DM’s choice, or he could roll dice as he sees fit to make the choice.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It is Fine (about the size of a coin).




hmm, then given that the progeny is Small instead, I’m going to have to assume that while the creature is burrowing into someone’s body that it is not actually fully _entering_ said body.  Do you think this will affect the entry as I wrote above?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> "Permanently dead"... heh, heh.




heh, what, you no like?    there probably is a better way to say that.  Something like “cannot be raised except by divine magic” or somesuch.


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> each attack would deal the type of damage as listed in the MM p312. DM’s choice, or he could roll dice as he sees fit to make the choice.



You should add this to the text, then.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, then given that the progeny is Small instead, I’m going to have to assume that while the creature is burrowing into someone’s body that it is not actually fully _entering_ said body. Do you think this will affect the entry as I wrote above?



I still think it would be better as Tiny, since it was listed as S (2') in 2E, and 2 ft. is either the high end of Tiny or the low end of Small. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> heh, what, you no like?  there probably is a better way to say that. Something like “cannot be raised except by divine magic” or somesuch.



I like it, but yeah, you might want to go with the standard:  "X destroys the victim’s body and prevents any form of raising or resurrection that requires part of the corpse."  (Borrowed from the barghest in this case).


----------



## BOZ (Nov 15, 2004)

Extra Limbs (Ex): An apodalypse has a multitude of appendages on its body stolen from previous victims it has incorporated into its body. It may use up to four of these at random in any given round, each of which usually consists of a slam, claw, bite, sting, gore, tentacle, tail slap, or wing. Each such attack form deals 1d8 points of damage of the type appropriate to the attack form (see p. 312 in the Monster Manual).


Burrow (Ex): If an apodalypse progeny hits a X-size or larger living creature with a bite attack, on its next turn it can attempt to burrow into the target's flesh. The target may attempt a DC X Reflex save to prevent the progeny from burrowing in (a helpless creature can't prevent the burrowing). If the save fails, each round thereafter the target takes 2d4 points of Constitution damage. The save DC is X-based. 

If any damage is dealt to a burrowing progeny, the creature it is burrowing into takes the same amount of damage. 

Subsume (Su?): A burrowing apodalypse progeny will reach a creature's spinal column in 1d4+2 rounds, at which point the host will become paralyzed. Beginning with that round, the progeny will begin to digest and replace the spinal column and lower brain stem of the victim. The process of subsumption takes 6 full rounds, inflicting 2d6? hit points of damage upon the victim per round. At the end of 6 full rounds, the victim is permanently dead and the progeny takes possession of the body. 

Any successful turning attempt on a progeny that is subsuming its host will kill the progeny instantly and end the subsumption.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd recommend reducing the progeny to Tiny, and saying that they can burrow into Medium or larger creatures. A Small creature burrowing into a Medium creature seems a bit farfetched, and if we limit them to affecting larger creatures, it sorta takes the threat away from most characters.




OK, I see your point, and I can make it Tiny (easier to change this now than when we come up with a full set of stats and such).  However, as I said before, even at this smaller size I’m going to have to assume that while the creature is burrowing into someone’s body that it is not actually fully _entering_ said body. Do you think this will affect the entry as I wrote above?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I like it, but yeah, you might want to go with the standard: "X destroys the victim’s body and prevents any form of raising or resurrection that requires part of the corpse." (Borrowed from the barghest in this case).




The problem is, the body is not destroyed at all, but transformed:

“If subsumption is successful, the victim is irrevocably lost, and the progeny takes possession of the still-living husk. If allowed the time to slowly incorporate the recently acquired flesh, it transforms itself (over a month's time) into an apodalypse with minimum hit points.”


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2004)

OK, I see where you are coming from on the size thing.   I suppose we could reimagine them about the size of a Goa'uld from Stargate, about the size of a footlong snake.   Those critters completely hide within a human.  

How about combining the two?

“If subsumption is successful, the victim is irrevocably lost, preventing any form of raising or resurrection, although a wish or a miracle spell can restore the victim to life and its original form, destroying the apodalypse.  The progeny takes possession of the still-living husk. If allowed the time to slowly incorporate the recently acquired flesh, it transforms itself (over a month's time) into an apodalypse with minimum hit points.”


----------



## BOZ (Nov 16, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> OK, I see where you are coming from on the size thing. I suppose we could reimagine them about the size of a Goa'uld from Stargate, about the size of a footlong snake. Those critters completely hide within a human.




hello, duh.  Thanks for the mental picture; I'm actually seeing this now.  And thanks for suggesting I make them Tiny.

When they eat the spinal column, they _take the place of the spine_ because they are serpent-shaped.  God, duh!  So, yes, they could be inside a human, by replacing part of its skeletal structure.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> If subsumption is successful, the victim is irrevocably lost, preventing any form of raising or resurrection, although a wish or a miracle spell can restore the victim to life and its original form, destroying the apodalypse. The progeny takes possession of the still-living husk. If allowed the time to slowly incorporate the recently acquired flesh, it transforms itself (over a month's time) into an apodalypse with minimum hit points.




let me take a hack at this...

Subsume (Su?): A burrowing apodalypse progeny will reach a creature's spinal column in 1d4+2 rounds, at which point the host automatically becomes paralyzed. Beginning with that round, the progeny will begin to digest the spinal column and lower brain stem of the victim. As the progeny eats, it replaces the spinal column with its own body, eventually attaching itself to the victim's brain when complete.

Any successful turning attempt on a progeny that is in the process of subsuming its host will kill the progeny instantly and end the subsumption.

The process of subsumption takes 6 full rounds, inflicting 2d6 hit points of damage upon the victim per round. At the end of 6 full rounds, the victim dies and the progeny takes control of the body. Subsumption prevents any form of raising or resurrection, although a wish or a miracle spell can restore the victim to life and its original form, destroying the progeny.


I see this part as flavor-text: "If allowed the time to slowly incorporate the recently acquired flesh, it transforms itself (over a month's time) into an apodalypse with minimum hit points."


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2004)

Looking good.    Since turning effects have an impact on the creature, should rebuke or command attempts have any effect?


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2004)

Posting in homebrews.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Looking good. Since turning effects have an impact on the creature, should rebuke or command attempts have any effect?




it’s a good question.  Naturally, this was written before much concern was given to how evil clerics affect undead.  Any ideas?

Vulnerability to Turning (Ex): Any turning attempt targeting an apodalypse that would turn or rebuke an undead of the apodalypse's HD dazes the apodalypse for 1 round. A turn attempt that would destroy or command an undead of equivalent Hit Dice instead stuns an apodalypse for 2d4 rounds.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2004)

Combining it with what you already had...

Vulnerability to Turning (Ex): Any turning attempt targeting an apodalypse progeny that would turn or rebuke an undead of the progeny's HD dazes the progeny for 1 round. A turn attempt that would destroy or command an undead of equivalent Hit Dice instead stuns an apodalypse for 2d4 rounds.

Any successful turning attempt on a progeny that is in the process of subsuming its host will kill the progeny instantly and end the subsumption.

I like the idea of killing it outright while in the act of subsumption, since the ability is so deadly.


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2004)

LOL  looks like we already had the rebuking in there.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I like the idea of killing it outright while in the act of subsumption, since the ability is so deadly.




And the creature itself is so weak.    it’s a good thing that ability allows for a saving throw, otherwise it would be just insane.

How about some ability scores?

Progeny:
Abilities: Str (14+?), Dex X, Con (12+), Int (--- or 1?), Wis X, Cha X

I suggested the Str based on the fact that it did 1d4+2 damage on a bite, but it doesn’t have to be that high.  For the Con, same thing since it had 3+3 HD.  For the Int, it is listed with an Int of Non (0), but it could alternatively be just 1.  Wis and Cha should be low, maybe even 1 like an ooze.  Dex should probably be the highest score.

Apodalypse:
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int (6?), Wis X, Cha X

I imagine the Dex would be lower than the progeny’s.  Str and Con should be high, minimum 20 each.  Wis and Cha should be at least 10 each.  The Cha can be higher actually, to increase the save DC on the energy drain.


----------



## Shade (Nov 18, 2004)

A few critters for possible inspiration (all Tiny):
Gutworm symbiont:  Str 4, Dex 5, Con 12, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 7
Reed snake:  Str 4, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Tiny viper:  Str 4, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Progeny: Str 4, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

To make up for the lower Str, we could up the damage die or give it Improved Natural Attack.

A few critters for possible inspiration:
Dire Shark (Huge):  Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 10
Megalodon (Gargantuan):  Str 31, Dex 15, Con 24, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 10

Apodalypse: Str 31, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 14

Strength is the same as a glabrezu and a dire bear, two creatures that came to mind when I tried to imagine its strength.  It puts it on par with the one-size-category-larger megalodon as well, which also does 4d6 damage with its jaws.  

I placed its Con score between the other two shark creatures listed above.

I figure its Dex is slightly worse than sharks, since it is a hodgepodge of critters.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 19, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Progeny: Str 4, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
> 
> To make up for the lower Str, we could up the damage die or give it Improved Natural Attack.




hmm, but with a Strength dip like that, the damage is going to take a hard hit.  We had a range of 3-6 damage per hit before.  A Str 4 gives it a ?3 to damage.  You?d have to have a damage die of say 2d4 to even come close to the original with such a penalty, and even then it would be weak.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Apodalypse: Str 31, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 14




now that certainly is more to my liking.


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2004)

No problem.  I wouldn't raise the Str over 10, though, as it is Tiny.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 19, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> No problem. I wouldn't raise the Str over 10, though, as it is Tiny.




true.    but there is always supernatural strength to account for.    I’ll raise it to 8 then – still a damage penalty, but at least it’s not such a big one.  1d8 or 2d4 for the damage die?  (or does it not matter, since there is a penalty?)


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2004)

Good point.   Taking that into consideration, I checked out the imp and quasit, and they are both Tiny and have Str scores of 10 and 8, respectively.

So if you want to keep it at 10, go for it!


----------



## BOZ (Nov 19, 2004)

OK, 10 it is.    I’m making the bite 2d4, that way it never does less than 2 damage.

Updating in homebrews!


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 19, 2004)

Looks good. Now the progeny just needs a note that a successful subsumption eventually results in an apodalypse.


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## BOZ (Nov 20, 2004)

quite right.  i will try to write up the flavor text over the weekend.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

OK, as threatened, I came up with flavor text for this bad boy.  

_This appears to be a wasp nest hanging from the ceiling, though in reality it is more like a tightly coiled snake with squamous flesh.  At the end of the snake is an eyeless, shark-like head with a mouth filled with rows of sharp teeth._

An apodalypse progeny is the foul offspring of the evil parent creature.  Like an adult apodalypse, this monster is partly undead and partly alive.  A progeny can remain in a dormant state for years, even centuries, hanging and waiting for prey.

An apodalypse progeny is about 2 feet long when unfurled and weighs X pounds.

COMBAT
Progeny attack immediately when disturbed by living humanoids.  They prefer to drop onto unsuspecting vitctims from above.  Once active, a progeny can use its coiled length to leap up to 20 feet through the air, or to swim through water, and deliver a vicious bite.

An apodalypse progeny will try to burrow into flesh, in an attempt to subsume its victim and turn it into a mindless husk of flesh.  If a progeny can maintain control over a husk for a full month, it transforms the victim?s body and becomes an adult apodalypse.



_This creature from the darkest of nightmares has an unstable form, a patchwork made up of the skin of humanoids with screaming faces and flailing arms, contrasted with fish scales, octopoidal tentacles, and manta wings. This mess surrounds a massive, shark-like maw._


The apodalypse was the horrible result of a foolish experiment combining reanimated shark tissue implanted in living humanoids.  The first apodalypse was created using formulae and recipes found in the unholy tome, The Nekton Fragments.

An apodalypse consists of an undead core, sheathed in a husk of still-living flesh that is constantly disintegrating and falling away. This aquatic monstrosity steals the flesh of the living to maintain its form and it?s semi-undead existence.  It can spend days unmoving to conserve its stolen flesh before it is forced to go hunting for the living.  When prey is plentiful, an apodalypse can release a clutch of progeny, each of which has the potential to grow into a full-fledged apodalypse.

An apodalypse is about 30 feet in diameter and weighs X pounds.

COMBAT
An apodalypse attacks with its savage bite, trying to swallow as many opponents as possible.  Creatures that die within an apodalypse have their flesh cannibalized and incorporated into the evil horror.  The flesh remains faintly living while it becomes a part of the beast.


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

Nice work!

For weights, 2 pounds for progeny and 10 tons for apodalypse?


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## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

My, that’s a lot of growth in one month!    of course, we are talking about getting four size categories larger…

skills & feats?  Baby poddy has 6 skill ranks and 2 feats, while big poppa has 16 skills and 5 feats.

The progeny is described as eyeless, so maybe blindsense?  It’s not clearly shown, in the text or picture, whether or not an adult apodalypse has eyes – but the faces of creatures it has incorporated into its body face outward, so maybe it can see through them?


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

Yep, one too many Wester Bacon Thickburgers.  

A shark has blindsense, so why not.  However, if it is eyeless, go with blindsight (blindsense is too weak for sole method of vision).   Also, why not borrow from the shark:

Keen Scent (Ex): A shark can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.

Progeny Suggested Skill Ranks:  Escape Artist 5, Move Silently 1
Progeny Suggested Feats:  Stealthy, Weapon Finesse

Apodalypse Suggested Skill Ranks:  Listen 8, Spot 8 (it doesn't really need anything else, does it?)
Apodalypse Suggested Feats:  Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack (all but Multiattack and Power Attack borrowed from shark)

Also, should these critters have the amphibious quality (particularly the progeny)?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yep, one too many Wester Bacon Thickburgers.




never had one, but it does sound like it could make you 4 size categories larger.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> A shark has blindsense, so why not. However, if it is eyeless, go with blindsight (blindsense is too weak for sole method of vision). Also, why not borrow from the shark:
> 
> Keen Scent (Ex): A shark can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.




ok, blindsight 60 ft for the progeny, and keen scent for both.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Progeny Suggested Skill Ranks: Escape Artist 5, Move Silently 1
> Progeny Suggested Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse
> 
> Apodalypse Suggested Skill Ranks: Listen 8, Spot 8 (it doesn't really need anything else, does it?)
> Apodalypse Suggested Feats: Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack (all but Multiattack and Power Attack borrowed from shark)




that all sounds good, and I assume you meant to add Multiattack in there.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Also, should these critters have the amphibious quality (particularly the progeny)?




why yes, yes they do.  Undead don’t need to breathe, but maybe these guys do.


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

Ooops!  I did forget to add Multiattack in there.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

OK, nearly done with this one… a few remaining issues…

Damage reduction:
5/magic for progeny, 10/magic for apodalypse?  Or something tougher?

SR 18 enough for adult?

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures inside an apodalypse’s interior gain X negative level(s) each round. The DC is 18 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is (Charisma)-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the apodalypse gains X temporary hit points.

CR…  3 or 4 for progeny, and 13-15 for adult?


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 22, 2004)

I could see silver as a DR component...

 SR should be ok.

 1 or 2 negative levels?


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

How about 5/good for progeny, and 10/magic and good for apodalypse?  With their vulnerability to turning and holy water, good seems like a no-brainer.

SR sounds kinda low.  Assuming CR 13 (which may be off), that is only CR + 5.  Rather weak.   I'd recommend we determine its CR first, then add at least 8 to it.

2 neg levels/5 hit points gained?

Proggy is about equivalent of an imp or quasit, which are both CR 2.

The apodalypse is about on par with the glabrezu, so CR 13 (ol' dogheaded pincer-boy has become my benchmark today...weird).


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about 5/good for progeny, and 10/magic and good for apodalypse? With their vulnerability to turning and holy water, good seems like a no-brainer.




yeah… yes, it does.    and the progeny doesn’t have much of a brain…

updating... another one bites the dust?


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 22, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> updating... another one bites the dust?



 How could it bite the dust when it is aquatic? 

 Looks good.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

Another one gills the sand?   Another one filter-feeds the plankton?

Out of the doorway the bullets rip (at a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range).

That song really suffers in an aquatic environment.  

It looks good.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

whoops, forgot to add amphibious quality... good thing you guys reminded me of that  LOL


----------



## BOZ (Dec 14, 2004)

how about the anguillan from Sea Devils next?


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2004)

Cool.


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2004)

...and yagdoo next?   Pleeeeeeease.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 14, 2004)

since you're so desperate to see this little fellow from the module Wizards' Challenge II...  

i'm not sure, but i think this little fellow might just be a single individual of a type of guardian yugoloth that already exists... i'll have to compare and see.


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2004)

What can I say...Jimmy Buffet's got parrotheads, the Grateful Dead has Deadheads...me, I'm a Lothhead.  I'm on a mission to spread the yugolove.


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2005)

Anguiliian
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate and Tropical Deep Ocean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: (I,O,P,Q(x10),X,Y)
ALIGNMENT- Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 5-20 (10-60)
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 9, Sw 18
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4/1d4/2d4+1/2d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Drill, clench, rake, dart
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to electricity, susceptible to fire
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6')
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: 270
Chieftain 650

Anguiliians (AN-gwill-ee-anz) resemble a cross between a man and an eel. They have sinuous bodies about 6 feet long, the upper section of which bears two fleshy appendages tipped with bony pincers. The anguiliians use these appendages as arms (the pincers can cut, crush, and grasp almost any living object) and forward fins.

Two short legs - ending in wide, six-toed feet - sprout from the creatures' flanks about two-thirds of the way down their bodies. Beyond their legs, anguiliian bodies possess flat tails fringed top and bottom with fins.

In addition, the creatures have reptilian eyes and jawless, circular mouths lined with row upon row of teeth. Anguiliian snouts are blunt, and they possess a pair of wide fins on the sides of their heads which resemble spiny ears.

An anguiliian's scaly body has a muddy brown hue with dots or speckles of black and tan.

Anguiliians communicate through clicks, thumps and whistles, just like sahuagin. In fact, these creatures speak a dialect of the sahuagin tongue. Their chieftains usually know the common tongue of surface dwellers (which they speak tolerably well) and the racial tongues of one or two other land or marine races.

Combat: Anguiliians make swift attacks aimed at overwhelming the opposition. In addition, they possess senses as acute as those of their sahuagin cousins. When fighting surface dwellers underwater, anguiliians gain a +2 bonus to their surprise rolls and impose a -2 penalty to their opponents' surprise rolls.

Once an hour. anguiliians can dart through the water at a rate of 30 for five minutes. They can use this burst of speed all at once, or in shorter bursts. However, once they have used their extra speed for five minutes, they must wait a full hour before doing so again.

In open water, anguiliians often form a loose sphere around their enemy: a few anguiliians swim overheard, a few more attack from the front, rear, and flanks, and the majority strike from below.

Anguiliians attack with their mouths, pincers, and tails. Their tails deliver a pile-driver punch, while their pincers slice and crush. On a successful bite, an anguiliian attaches itself to its opponent unless the opponent wears metal armor or has a natural Armor Class of 0 or better. Once attached, the anguiliian automatically drills into the opponent for bite damage each round. (Anguiliians have been known to drill their way into large creatures - such as whales - and literally eat them from the inside out). Victims of an anguiliian bite can dislodge the creature only by killing it, or tearing it away with a successful bend bars roll.

While attached, an anguiliian automatically rakes its opponent with its feet each round for an additional 2d4 points of damage. In addition, all attacks with its pincers and tail gain a +2 attack bonus.

If unable to attach its mouth, an anguiliian can grasp its opponent with its pincers. If both pincers hit during the same round, the creature traps the opponent, automatically inflicting raking and pincer damage reach round and gaining a +2 attack bonus with its tail and bite.

	Anguiliians are completely immune to all forms of electrical attack. However, all fire attacks inflict an extra 2 points per die of damage. Furthermore, the anguiliian suffers a –2 saying throw penalty vs. fire attacks. Anguiliians cannot abide bright light or fresh water. When exposed to either, they must make a morale check or withdraw.

During their rare forays ashore, anguiliians typically carry several stone-tipped javelins, which they clench in their pincers.

Habitat/Society: Anguiliians live in the sunless depths of the ocean. They typically dwell at depths between 1,800 and 2,400 feet, rising near the surface only at night to hunt. Some anguiliians even venture to the surface on moonless nights. However, the creatures limit such forays to brief raids on lonely islands, or attacks on passing ships.

The anguiliian's social structure is a patriarchal hierarchy based on an elder chieftain (who has 5 Hit Dice). Anguiliian leaders are subject to challenge - just as sahuagin leaders. Unlike sahuagin, however, anguiliians do not have a rigid nobility system or a priesthood.

Anguiliian form free-swimming tribes that cruise the ocean depths. The entire tribe remains mobile, with the females carrying their eggs along as they swim. Most anguiliian encounters will involve 5d4 adult males acting as scouts or hunters for the main group. There is a 40% chance that an anguiliian tribe has 3d4 marine eels as guards.

Ecology: Anguiliians consume any flesh - including carrion, slain opponents, and their own dead. They regularly hunt giant squid, whales, and a variety of fish. Anguiliian meat is foully pungent, and not even the voracious sahuagin care to eat it. Sharks, kraken, and other monsters of the deep aren't so picky, and often prey upon anguiliians before the anguiliians can prey upon them.





some preliminary stats for the anguiliian:

*Anguiliian*
Medium (Monstrous Humanoid? Aberration?) (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 3d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), swim 50 ft
Armor Class: 16 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: +X melee 
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Drill, clench, rake, dart
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, freshwater sensitivity, immunity to electricity, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: Swim
Feats: X

Environment: Temperate and warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary, scouting party (5-20), or tribe (10-60 plus 40% chance of 3d4 marine eels)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large), or by character class
Level Adjustment: +X


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## Shade (Feb 25, 2005)

Monstrous Humanoid.  They are no more bizarre than a sahuagin mutant.


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2005)

True that.  

One difficulty I was having was this:

NO. OF ATTACKS: 4
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4/1d4/2d4+1/2d6

“Anguiliians attack with their mouths, pincers, and tails. Their tails deliver a pile-driver punch, while their pincers slice and crush.” And the drilling bite.

I’d say it’s an easy bet that the pincers are the 1d4 (since there are two, woohoo!).  but as to the 2d4+1 and the 2d6, which do you think is the tail and which the bite?


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## Knight Otu (Feb 25, 2005)

2d6 is the mouth/bite, I'd say. It sounds pretty powerful, and this deals a little bit more damage.


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## Shade (Feb 25, 2005)

My gut reaction is that the bite is 2d6, since it is its "main feature".   The +1 on the 2d4 might also represent the "pile-driver punch" of its tail attack.

Also, any idea where one might find the stats for a "marine eel"?


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## BOZ (Feb 26, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Also, any idea where one might find the stats for a "marine eel"?




no idea.


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2005)

We can probably use the sahuagin stats as a baseline:

Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 9



> Anguiliians make swift attacks aimed at overwhelming the opposition. In addition, they possess senses as acute as those of their sahuagin cousins. When fighting surface dwellers underwater, anguiliians gain a +2 bonus to their surprise rolls and impose a -2 penalty to their opponents' surprise rolls.




This would seem to indicate to me that they have similar Wis score as sahuagins, and at least as good (if not better) Dex.

I'm thinking:  Str 16-18, Dex 13-15, Con 12-14, Int 10, Wis 12-13, Cha 7-9


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## BOZ (Feb 28, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> This would seem to indicate to me that they have similar Wis score as sahuagins, and at least as good (if not better) Dex.




right on.  

I'm re-thinking: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 7


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2005)

_Excellent_.  <twiddles fingers in a Mr. Burnsian manner>


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2005)

The mad bumper strikes again!     

Stuff to possibly borrow from the sahuagin:

Blindsense (Ex): A sahuagin can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the sahuagin is underwater.

Blood Frenzy: Once per day a sahuagin that takes damage in combat can fly into a frenzy in the following round, clawing and biting madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +2 Constitution and +2 Strength, and takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. A sahuagin cannot end its frenzy voluntarily.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +2 melee, damage 1d4+1. A sahuagin also gains two rake attacks when it attacks while swimming.

Freshwater Sensitivity (Ex): A sahuagin fully immersed in fresh water must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Even on a success, it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.

Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds sahuagin for round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled while operating in bright light.

Speak with Sharks (Ex): Sahuagin can communicate telepathically with sharks up to 150 feet away. The communication is limited to fairly simple concepts such as “food,” “danger,” and “enemy.” Sahuagin can use the Handle Animal skill to befriend and train sharks.

Water Dependent (Ex): Sahuagin can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules on page 304 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide).

Skills: A sahuagin has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*Underwater, a sahuagin has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks.

*A sahuagin has a +4 racial bonus on Survival and Profession (hunter) checks within 50 miles of its home.

*A sahuagin has a +4 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks when working with sharks.


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## BOZ (Mar 3, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> The mad bumper strikes again!




just trying to keep things up near the top so they don't get forgotten...    will respond to this when i get the chance.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Stuff to possibly borrow from the sahuagin:




I’ll make use of all of that stuff, except for the shark stuff and the frenzy.    the rest of it is mentioned in the anguiliian text.

here are some more items from the text:

 Once an hour, anguiliians can dart through the water at a rate of 30 for five minutes. They can use this burst of speed all at once, or in shorter bursts. However, once they have used their extra speed for five minutes, they must wait a full hour before doing so again.

On a successful bite, an anguiliian attaches itself to its opponent unless the opponent wears metal armor or has a natural Armor Class of 0 or better. Once attached, the anguiliian automatically drills into the opponent for bite damage each round. (Anguiliians have been known to drill their way into large creatures - such as whales - and literally eat them from the inside out). Victims of an anguiliian bite can dislodge the creature only by killing it, or tearing it away with a successful bend bars roll.

While attached, an anguiliian automatically rakes its opponent with its feet each round for an additional 2d4 points of damage. In addition, all attacks with its pincers and tail gain a +2 attack bonus.

If unable to attach its mouth, an anguiliian can grasp its opponent with its pincers. If both pincers hit during the same round, the creature traps the opponent, automatically inflicting raking and pincer damage reach round and gaining a +2 attack bonus with its tail and bite.

During their rare forays ashore, anguiliians typically carry several stone-tipped javelins, which they clench in their pincers.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Once an hour, anguiliians can dart through the water at a rate of 30 for five minutes. They can use this burst of speed all at once, or in shorter bursts. However, once they have used their extra speed for five minutes, they must wait a full hour before doing so again.




Borrowing from the cheetah, which is much more simplified:

Sprint (Ex): Once per hour, an anguiliian can move X times its normal speed (X feet) when it makes a charge.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> On a successful bite, an anguiliian attaches itself to its opponent unless the opponent wears metal armor or has a natural Armor Class of 0 or better. Once attached, the anguiliian automatically drills into the opponent for bite damage each round. (Anguiliians have been known to drill their way into large creatures - such as whales - and literally eat them from the inside out). Victims of an anguiliian bite can dislodge the creature only by killing it, or tearing it away with a successful bend bars roll.
> 
> While attached, an anguiliian automatically rakes its opponent with its feet each round for an additional 2d4 points of damage. In addition, all attacks with its pincers and tail gain a +2 attack bonus.




Attach (Ex): An anguiliian that hits with its bite attack latches onto the opponent’s body with its powerful jaws. An attached anguiliian loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and thus has an AC of X.

An attached anguiliian can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached anguiliian through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the creature.

An attached anguiliian can make two rake attacks attacks and can utilize its "drill" attack.  Additionally, it gains a +2 bonus on all attack rolls with its other natural attacks.

"Drill" (Ex): An attached anguiliian deals automatic bite damage each round it remains attached.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +X melee, damage X.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> If unable to attach its mouth, an anguiliian can grasp its opponent with its pincers. If both pincers hit during the same round, the creature traps the opponent, automatically inflicting raking and pincer damage reach round and gaining a +2 attack bonus with its tail and bite.




Improved Grab (Ex): If an anguiliian hits an opponent with both pincer attacks, it deals normal damage and attmpts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it gets a hold, it deals can attempt to rake.

Add constrict for the "automatic pincer damage" for 2 pincers?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> During their rare forays ashore, anguiliians typically carry several stone-tipped javelins, which they clench in their pincers.




Give 'em javelins.


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Borrowing from the cheetah, which is much more simplified:
> 
> Sprint (Ex): Once per hour, an anguiliian can move X times its normal speed (X feet) when it makes a charge.




it’s also not unlike the squid’s Jet ability.  We can’t really call this a “sprint” since that tends to assume you’re running on land.    how about,

Dart (Ex): Five times per hour, an anguillian can double its normal swim speed (100 feet) when it makes a charge.

Seems silly to restrict it to once per hour if it’s only doubling the speed.  

the “drill” can be combined into the attach if it’s only automatic bite damage each round:

Attach (Ex): If an anguiliian hits with its bite attack, it uses its powerful jaws to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached anguiliian loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and thus has an AC of 14.

An attached anguiliian can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached anguiliian through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the creature.

An attached anguiliian can make two rake attacks attacks and deals automatic bite damage each round. Additionally, it gains a +2 bonus on all attack rolls with its other natural attacks.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Give 'em javelins.




it… it’s that simple?


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> it’s also not unlike the squid’s Jet ability.  We can’t really call this a “sprint” since that tends to assume you’re running on land.    how about,
> 
> Dart (Ex): Five times per hour, an anguillian can double its normal swim speed (100 feet) when it makes a charge.
> 
> Seems silly to restrict it to once per hour if it’s only doubling the speed.




Good name change.  I'd either go higher than double speed, or increase its use to once every 5 minutes.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the “drill” can be combined into the attach if it’s only automatic bite damage each round:
> 
> Attach (Ex): If an anguiliian hits with its bite attack, it uses its powerful jaws to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached anguiliian loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and thus has an AC of 14.
> 
> ...




Yeah, that makes more sense than a separate ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it… it’s that simple?




Yup.     Unless you want to give 'em the -2 attack and damage penalty for stone weapons as suggested in the Arms and Equipment Guide.


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## BOZ (Mar 7, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Good name change. I'd either go higher than double speed, or increase its use to once every 5 minutes.




I'll go one up on you and make it once a minute.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yup. Unless you want to give 'em the -2 attack and damage penalty for stone weapons as suggested in the Arms and Equipment Guide.




nah... not really all that necessary - maybe it will appear in the flavor text though, so the DM can make a decision as he wishes.

posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I'll go one up on you and make it once a minute.




Cool.  Much simpler.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> nah... not really all that necessary - maybe it will appear in the flavor text though, so the DM can make a decision as he wishes.




That's what I thought you'd say.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> posting in homebrews.




In what thread?   I don't see it.


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## BOZ (Mar 7, 2005)

Fooled you!    [/dark helmet]

Let’s try that again…


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2005)

Get back to "combing" the desert.    

Attack: Bite +6 melee (2d6+3) 

Skills: Hide 4, Listen 4, Spot 4

Feats:  Should we give 'em Multiattack as a bonus feat like the sahuagin?  I'd recommend Great Fortitude for the other feat, and if Multi is a bonus, Endurance or Alertness.

CR: 3?

LA:  +4 (nat armor, unbalance ability scores, immunity to elec, more attacks than fighter of equivalent level)


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## BOZ (Mar 7, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Feats: Should we give 'em Multiattack as a bonus feat like the sahuagin? I'd recommend Great Fortitude for the other feat, and if Multi is a bonus, Endurance or Alertness.




yes on bonus, and Alertness sounds better unless you have a fondness for Endurance?


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2005)

Alertness is fine.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2005)

added flavor text.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2005)

Mmmm...savor the flavor.    

It looks good.  Sahuagins weigh 200 pounds, so these guys are probably similar.  I'd add a good 25 pounds for pincers.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2005)

updating... looks good?


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2005)

Sure does!


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## BOZ (Apr 26, 2005)

this one should be a nice little challenge.    template?


1E Monster Manual II:

VAGABOND

FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: As form
ARMOR CLASS: As form
MOVE: As form
HIT DICE: As form
% IN LAIR: 0
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO, OF ATTACKS: As form
DAMAGE/ATTACK: As form
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: As form
MAGIC RESISTANCE: As form
INTELLIGENCE: Genius to supra-genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (any)
SIZE: As form
PSIONIC ABILITY:  201-300
	Attack/Defense Modes: All/all
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: Variable

A vagabond is a life force of unknown origin, possibly from a far planet, parallel universe, or undiscovered plane. Though very rare, it may be encountered anywhere. The life force occupies the form of any one intelligent corporal creature indigenous to the area in which it is encountered, apparently forming or controlling the body for its own ends. A vagabond is often immediately recognizable if communication is established, as its odd speech and behavior patterns (always atypical of the form assumed) indicate its unfamiliarly with local customs and expectations.

As vagabonds may have nearly any appearance (though they have no power to change the form once assumed), their movement rates and other physical characteristics are those of the creatures, The vagabond is typically very inquisitive, often about mundane or personal details. If attacked, it will use its form to defend (or retreat) as best possible. If invited to accompany a party for an adventure, however, it will usually agree (90%), offering its form as an asset for use in exploration and (if necessary) combat. If the body is slain, the vagabond life force will depart, never to return. It an entire adventure is completed, the creature will give a special gift to each party member before departing, It can enchant any gem with a variety of word of recall (3 uses per enchantment) and will enchant 1 gem per character accompanying it on the adventure by way of thanks. (Only the possessor will know the 1-segment phrase needed to activate the gem).

Vagabonds are creatures of legend, and nothing is known of their true forms or society (if any). They are immune to all forms of mental attack or control, save psionics.



Complete Psionics Handbook:

Vagabond

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: As host
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: As host
DIET: As host
INTELLIGENCE: Genius to Supra-genius (17-20)
TREASURE: As host + special
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (any)

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: As host
MOVEMENT: As host
HIT DICE: As host
THAC0: As host
NO. OF ATTACKS: As host
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: As host
SPECIAL ATTACKS: As host, psionics
SPECIAL DEFENSES: As host, psionics
MAGIC RESISTANCE: As host, immune to mental spells
SIZE: As host
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE: As host + 4 Hit Dice

It is difficult to say what a vagabond really looks like, because they can mimic countless other creatures in form. They are an alien life force of unknown origin. They are always encountered in the form of an intelligent, corporeal creature indigenous to the area (a creature with at least animal intelligence).

	Vagabonds can assume such forms in one of three ways. First, they can simply form the body with their unusual powers. When this occurs, the vagabond looks like a small blob of ink which appears on the ground, then quickly enlarges into three dimensions, filling out, then forming the finer details. Such a change can be tremendously terrifying if the chosen form is something like a wolfwere. Secondly vagabonds can take over a freshly dead body, curing it of all ailments. Lastly, they can inhabit a living body. In this last form, they are like back-seat drivers who make strong suggestions: they cannot do anything which the host life force does not want them to do. Thus, a possessed horse wouldn't  jump off a cliff unless it felt safe or confident about the jump. As noted above, vagabonds take the form of any creature with at least animal intelligence. They rarely inhabit forms of higher intelligence, however , such as player character races.

Once they have assumed a form, vagabonds are locked into it and cannot leave, except with the typical psionic powers such as switch personality (which is one of their favorites).

If they are communicated with, it will soon become t that something is amiss, for they have none of their form's knowledge as to speech, behavior, customs, or expectations. However, they are able to use all of its attack and defense forms as well as movement and essential functions. Of course, many of these will be performed in strange unique ways.

Combat: Vagabonds fight with the same skills as their form has. They are also completely immune to all forms of mental attacks and control which are not strictly psionic. Besides these adjustments, all vagabonds are psionically endowed. If their host body is slain, they will, depart, never to return.

Psionics Summary:
Level	Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score
12	4/6/19 See below/All	=Int	1d100+200

Vagabonds never have psychokinetic powers. They have a particular affinity for these:

·	Clairsentience - Any power which lets them learn things.
·	Psychometabolisrn - Any power which allows them to change form or travel in difficult terrain.
·	Metapsionics - They are masters of this discipline, having access to all its powers without regard to their total number of disciplines, science, and devotions.
·	Telepathy - The creature can use any telepathic power to communicate or gain information, plus enough attack forms to psionically defend themselves.
·	Psychoportation - Any which allows them to travel.

Habitat/Society: Habitat matches the form they assume. Society either matches the form, or the creature is a solitary wanderer. Vagabonds are never encountered together, and no one has ever heard of this occurring. All vagabonds can detect each other's presence, up to a mile. At this point, they will separate if feasible.

Ecology: Vagabonds seem to have come to the prime material plane to gain information. They are extremely curious and inquisitive often about mundane or personal details. If given the chance to adventure with the party, they are 90% likely to join. In exchange, they will use their considerable power to the party's benefit.

	It can be great fun to have a vagabond secretly posses a PC's war dog or war horse (most of these will be true neutral). Evil and good vagabonds tend to side with forces of similar alignment, both aiding them and learning of their ways.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2005)

Conversions are back.  Woo-hoo!    

Yeah, methinks this should be a template.  Or, at least, a creature/template combo similar to the raggomoffyns/captured ones.


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## BOZ (Apr 26, 2005)

they could start off as incorporeal creatures, and when they find/create a host the template would be applied.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2005)

So which shall we stat first?


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## BOZ (Apr 27, 2005)

they would be basically incorporeal right?  how about the creature first, and then the host-template?


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2005)

Yeah, I'd say they are incorporeal.  We might be able to get some ideas from the possession stuff in the BOVD and fiend of possession prestige class in the FF.


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## BOZ (Apr 27, 2005)

it's a really mild possession though, in a case where it possesses someone.  it only adds to something's abilities and can't control them or force them to do anything.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2005)

1E Monster Manual II said:
			
		

> A vagabond is a life force of unknown origin, possibly from a far planet, parallel universe, or undiscovered plane.




Outsider?


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 30, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> My gut reaction is that the bite is 2d6, since it is its "main feature". The +1 on the 2d4 might also represent the "pile-driver punch" of its tail attack.
> 
> Also, any idea where one might find the stats for a "marine eel"?






Marine eels are in the 1e Monster Manual II and in Monstrous Compendium, Volume 2.  They're basically giant electric eels.  There aren't any 3e stats that I know of.  Sorry if this reply is late, but I just registers


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## BOZ (May 1, 2005)

thanks!


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## BOZ (May 2, 2005)

some preliminary stats for the vagabond (if this can even be done):

*Vagabond*
Medium? Outsider (Incorporeal, Native?)
Hit Dice: Xd8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: X ft (X squares)
Armor Class: X (+X size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X +X melee (X+X)
Full Attack: X +X melee (X+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: psionics
Special Qualities: create host, darkvision 60 ft, detect vagabond, immunity to (non-psionic) mind-affecting effects, incorporeal traits, inhabit host, reanimate corpse
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 18, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Often neutral 
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X?


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## Shade (May 2, 2005)

I think we can modify this to suit our needs:



			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> If a fiend wishes to possess a creature, the fiend's ethereal form must be adjacent to its desired target. A protection from evil spell (or similar effect) makes a creature immune to possession attempts. An unprotected target of a possession attempt must succeed at a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 fiend's HD + fiend's Cha bonus) to avoid possession. Evil targets of a possession attempt take a -2 circumstance penalty this saving throw, and a target of a possession attempt who is in the middle of committing an evil act takes a further -2 circumstance penalty.
> Once a creature succeeds at a save against possession, that fiend cannot attempt to possess that creature again for 24 hours. On a failed save, the creature is possessed.
> 
> A fiend in possession of a body becomes a part of the victim, aware of what is going on around the creature that they possess. It can see and hear as well as the victim can. A possessing fiend can, at any time, speak mentally to the creature that it possesses in a language that the creature can understand, although if the victim isn't very intelligent, its understanding may be limited.


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## BOZ (May 2, 2005)

some of it, but no saving throw would need to be made since it would possess only willing targets and has no form of control over the target's thoughts or actions other than "hey, why don't we do this..."


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## Shade (May 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> some of it, but no saving throw would need to be made since it would possess only willing targets and has no form of control over the target's thoughts or actions other than "hey, why don't we do this..."




Agreed.  But some of the mechanics for getting it into the creature's body and its senses while within the victim could be used.


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## BOZ (May 9, 2005)

any ideas for a place to start with the stats?


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## Shade (May 9, 2005)

Yeah, Str -.     

But seriously, I'd say Str -, Dex 14-18, Con 10, Wis 14-18, Int 18, Cha 18-22.


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## BOZ (May 9, 2005)

the main thing i'm concerned about is HD...


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## Shade (May 9, 2005)

Ahh...good point.

How about trying 10 HD, and see how that looks?


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## BOZ (May 9, 2005)

the wacky thing is, these stats may as well be arbitrary, since it’s only going to have them for a short time.  While possessing a creature, it’s only going to have access to its mental stats and psionics.


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## Shade (May 9, 2005)

True.  If it weren't for the fact that they could potentially affect player characters or their allies, I'd think a template would be enough.  However, we need some sort of mechanic for if the creature resists.


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## BOZ (May 9, 2005)

the possession is 100% benign from what i'm reading.  if the target creature is not interested, the possession doesn't happen.  unless i'm reading that wrong.  maybe the possession can happen regardless of the will of the creature, but the vagabond can't force the creature to do anything.  it's more of a symbiosis than a possession, really.


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## Shade (May 9, 2005)

So you wanna go back to just making it a template then?    

(If so, I support that decision).


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## BOZ (May 10, 2005)

LOL  OK, might be just as well... i mean, it could go either way.  it really properly should have a "hazard" type description, with stats for how to template other creatures.


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## Shade (May 10, 2005)

Probably true.  This is the first one we've converted that has left me scratching my head.  But if the friggin' Midgard Serpent can be converted, so can this!


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## Knight Otu (May 11, 2005)

Huhumm. Interesting...

Maybe the glimmerskin in the MM2 can be a tiny little bit of help?


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## BOZ (May 11, 2005)

let me get a moment to think (those have been rare given both changes at home and at work) and i will come up with some model we can work off of.


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## Shade (May 11, 2005)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Maybe the glimmerskin in the MM2 can be a tiny little bit of help?




Oooh...good suggestion!


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## BOZ (May 11, 2005)

it might just be, i took a brief look at it.  i'll try to see if i can find some free time before work to post something about this creature.


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## BOZ (May 12, 2005)

what do you know.    how is this for a start (will compare to the glimmerskin later)

A vagabond is a solitary, enigmatic creature of an inexplicable nature.  This creature exists as a disembodied life force with the ability to inhabit any physical form.  The true nature and origin of the vagabonds is a mystery, but they seem to be most often found on the Material Plane.

A vagabond has a powerful mentality (Int 20, Wis X, Cha X), though its incorporeal form provides limited means at best of interacting with the physical world.  It has an array of psionic powers, though it cannot make use of these unless it has a body.  A vagabond is immune to non-psionic mind-affecting effects, and while incorporeal is immune to any attacks from a corporeal source.  A vagabond will wander alone until it finds a suitable form to exist as.  Vagabonds can detect each other up to a mile away, and will avoid each other if possible.

A vagabond is neutral in alignment until it takes on another form.  It can accomplish this in one of three ways.  The first way is to form a corporeal body from (nothing? Air? Matter?), starting as a small inky blob on the ground that quickly enlarges into three dimensions, fills out, and forms finer details.  The second method is to find a fresh corpse, which the vagabond enters and controls, restoring the body to full health.  Lastly, a vagabond can inhabit a willing living creature.  Regardless, the form chosen must have an Intelligence score, and once a vagabond chooses its form it is locked into that form and cannot leave (except through the use of psionics).  The vagabond gains all the abilities of the form it has chosen (except Su and Sp?), but has access to none of the memories or skills of the creature.  Vagabonds are thus typically very inquisitive, even about mundane or personal details.  They will willingly accompany intelligent creatures, and relish the opportunity to do so.  If the body a vagabond inhabits is slain, the vagabond’s incorporeal form will depart and never return to that area.


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2005)

Flavor text sounds good, and I think that a template sounds like the right way to go about this. I'd say that the vagabond should keep the creature's supernatural abilities, although maybe not spell-like abilities.

Demiurge out.


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## BOZ (May 24, 2005)

Started working on the vagabond template.  Some of these fields will be left blank, so no big deal there.  

CREATING A VAGABOND
“Vagabond” is an acquired template that can be added to any living corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A vagabond uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: 
Hit Dice: 
Speed: 
Armor Class: 
Attack: 
Full Attack: 
Damage: 
Special Attacks: A vagabond retains all the special attacks of the base creature and also gains the following attacks.
(Psionics)
Special Qualities: A vagabond retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following qualities.
 – Immunity to non-psionic mind-affecting effects.
Detect Vagabond (Ex?): A vagabond can detect the presence of another vagabond at a range of up to a mile, regardless of whether the other vagabond has taken a corporeal form or not.
Abilities: Same as the base creature, but Intelligence is at least X, Wisdom is at least X, and Charisma is at least X.
Skills: 
Feats: 
Environment: Any, usually same as base creature.
Organization: Solitary.
Challenge Rating: 
Treasure: 
Alignment: Same as base creature.
Advancement: 
Level Adjustment: 


Need to write something up for the psionics, so let’s start by working this into an XPH-style writeup:

Psionics Summary:
Level	Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score
12	4/6/19 See below/All	=Int	1d100+200

Vagabonds never have psychokinetic powers. They have a particular affinity for these:

·	Clairsentience - Any power which lets them learn things.
·	Psychometabolisrn - Any power which allows them to change form or travel in difficult terrain.
·	Metapsionics - They are masters of this discipline, having access to all its powers without regard to their total number of disciplines, science, and devotions.
·	Telepathy - The creature can use any telepathic power to communicate or gain information, plus enough attack forms to psionically defend themselves.
·	Psychoportation - Any which allows them to travel.


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## Angel Tarragon (May 24, 2005)

Very cool template, Boz! I'll be using it very soon!


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## BOZ (May 25, 2005)

it's hardly ready.


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## Shade (May 25, 2005)

Size and Type:  The creature's type does not change, but it gains the Psionic subtype.   Size is unchanged.

As far as psionics go, here are some possibilities:



> Clairsentience - Any power which lets them learn things.




Precognition
Clairvoyant Sense
Object Reading
Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions
Escape Detection
Fate Link 
Remote Viewing
Precognition, Greater
Fate of One
Hypercognition
Metafaculty



> Psychometabolisrn - Any power which allows them to change form or travel in difficult terrain.




Thicken Skin
Animal Affinity
Chameleon
Ectoplasmic Form
Metamorphosis
Fusion
Metamorphosis, Greater



> Metapsionics - They are masters of this discipline, having access to all its powers without regard to their total number of disciplines, science, and devotions.




Assuming Metapsionics became Metacreativity:

Astral Construct
Minor Creation, Psionic
Psionic Repair Damage
Concealing Amorpha, Greater
Ectoplasmic Cocoon
Fabricate, Psionic
Quintessence
Hail of Crystals
Crystallize
Fabricate, Greater Psionic
Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Mass
Astral Seed
Genesis
True Creation



> Telepathy - The creature can use any telepathic power to communicate or gain information, plus enough attack forms to psionically defend themselves.




Mindlink
Aversion
Brain Lock
Read Thoughts
Suggestion, Psionic
Crisis of Breath
Empathic Transfer, Hostile
Dominate, Psionic
Mindlink, Thieving
Modify Memory, Psionic
Mind Probe
Crisis of Life



> Psychoportation - Any which allows them to travel.




Dimension Swap
Levitate, Psionic
Astral Caravan
Fly, Psionic
Teleport, Psionic
Teleport Trigger
Dream Travel
Ethereal Jaunt, Psionic
Time Hop, Mass
Teleportation Circle, Psionic

Note that the fusion and fate link abilities almost described the vagabond perfectly.


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## BOZ (May 25, 2005)

i'll do a bit more research when i have a chance.


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## BOZ (May 26, 2005)

Took a look through the 2E handbook yesterday and made a list of powers that seem to match the concepts given under the vagabond – just for reference.  Haven’t really had time to look at the XPH yet for the ones Shade listed, but I will sooner or later.

In the meantime, the manifester level listed in the 2E book was 12.  it also gave them 4 disciplines, 6 sciences, and 19 devotions to work with, as well as all the defense modes and “enough attack forms to psionically defend themselves”.   I’m going to estimate that into being roughly 35 psionic powers – that should be the upper limit to how many powers we wind up assigning our vagabond, and we may want to consider even giving it less than that.

Clairsentience – clairaudience, clairvoyance, object reading, precognition, sensitivity to psychic impressions

Psychometabolism – animal affinity, metamorphosis, shadow-form, body control, body equilibrium, body weaponry, catfall, chameleon power, ectoplasmic form, expansion, flesh armor, reduction

Psychoportation – probability control, teleport, astral projection, dimensional door, dimension walk, dream travel, teleport trigger

Telepathy – ejection, mind link, probe, psychic crush, tower of iron will, conceal thoughts, ego whip, empathy, ESP, id insinuation, incarnation awareness, intellect fortress, mental barrier, mind bar, mind blank, mind thrust, psionic blast, psychic messenger, psychic impersonation, send thoughts, sight link, sound link, taste link, thought shield, truthear

Metapsionics (listed all in chapter) – appraise, aura alteration, empower, psychic clone, psychic surgery, split personality, ultrablast, cannibalize, convergence, enhancement, gird, intensify, magnify, martial trance, prolong, psionic inflation, psionic sense, psychic drain, receptacle, retrospection, splice, stasis field, wrench


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## Shade (May 26, 2005)

It seems to me that we have several options:


Give 'em tons of psi-like abilities.
Give 'em the spellcasting ability of a 12th-level psion.
Some combination of the two.

Personally, I think the combo option would work best.


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## BOZ (May 26, 2005)

i like option #2, with option #1 as the XPH-version.


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## Shade (May 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i like option #2, with option #1 as the XPH-version.




Wouldn't that be reversed?


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

i need sleep.  

i'll pick back up on this guy next week.


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## Shade (May 27, 2005)

All these psionic critters are causing dain bramage.


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## BOZ (Jul 8, 2005)

Note:  I found the counterpart to Chemical Simulation, which the ustilagor had in 2E – it is now called Dissolving Touch.  On a rewrite, I think we should add that.


Now, the vagabond has forced me to do a lot of research that I really should probably have done some time ago, but was too lazy.    regardless, I do know my psionic powers a bit better now, and how 2E powers relate to 3.5 ones.

In genereal, I think I will go with what the designer was thinking in 2E, and how that relates to 3.5 powers rather than what the 2E designer said and how that relates directly to 3.5 powers.

Here is where I'm going with that.  " Vagabonds never have psychokinetic powers."  Thus, they will not only have any 3.5 psychokinetics, but they also won't have any powers that were psychokinetic in 2E, including major creation, create sound, levitation, and matter manipulation.

"Clairsentience - Any power which lets them learn things."  By "learn things", well basically any power in this category lets you learn something.  I think they were suggesting it should have powers that let them gain specific information about a person, place, or thing.

" Psychometabolisrn - Any power which allows them to change form or travel in difficult terrain." The idea of changing form very slightly is present in a lot of psychometabolic powers, but I suspect they meant more like a total change in form rather than a change to form like gaining claws or fur.  Naturally, anything that increases their ability to move in any way is good.

"Metapsionics - They are masters of this discipline, having access to all its powers without regard to their total number of disciplines, science, and devotions."  Here is one that I'm going to have to enforce the "2E intent" idea.  2E Metapsionics and 3E Metacreativity seem to be defined in vastly different terms; in fact, it is likely that metapsionics was scrapped as a category, the powers eliminated, reassigned (most into telepathy), or made into feats, and Metacreativity was made whole cloth.  Thus, they should have access to every power that translates well from a 2E metapsionic power, and I think they should have the option of getting metapsionic feats, possibly as bonus feats.

" Telepathy - The creature can use any telepathic power to communicate or gain information, plus enough attack forms to psionically defend themselves."  That should be fairly clear.  I'm going to give them access to the former attack/defense modes that are still Telepathy powers (not all are), and any power that is communication or information gaining in nature.

"Psychoportation - Any which allows them to travel."  That should be the most obvious!    hello, anything goes from one place to another, including teleportation and planar effects, but also just anything that increases their movement capabilities.

With that in mind, I came up with a big list of good powers that seem to fit in well with the whole concept of the vagabond:

astral caravan, aura alteration, burst, call to mind, catapsi, clairvoyant sense, correspond, detect psionics, psionic dimension door, dimension slide, dimension swap, psionic divination, dream travel, ectoplasmic form, ego whip, empathy, empty mind, psionic ethereal jaunt, fate link, psionic fly, form of doom, fusion, id insinuation, psionic identify, metaconcert, metamorphosis, greater metamorphosis, psionic mind blank, mind probe, mind thrust, mindlink, missive, mass missive, oak body, object reading, psionic overland flight, psionic phase door, psionic plane shift, psionic blast, psychic chirurgery, psychic crush, read thoughts, remote viewing, schism, sensitivity to psychic impressions, shadow body, skate, psionic teleport, psionic teleportation circle, teleport trigger, thought shield, psionic tongues, tower of iron will, ultrablast, wall walker

I think the best way to handle its power list is the same way that the 2E designers did it: to not tie them down to a specific list.  Thus, the template will state that they get X number of powers, and what their tendencies are (slightly modified from the 2E tendencies).  The list of examples will be given in our example creature.

For the number of psionic powers a creature has, it should probably be some function based off of Charisma.  Such as, Cha score x2, or 10 + (Cha mod x4) or something to that effect.  As I previously determined, they will manifest powers as a 12th-level psion.  When we decide what a vagabond's base Cha score should be, then it will be easier to come up with this formula.  I estimated that it should have approximately 35 powers, though a vagabond fusing with a creature with a higher Cha-score would have more.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

OK, I finally had a chance to read through that novel.    

I think the best solution is to simply have the vagabond grant the psionic ability of a 12th-level psion, and then create a typical psion powers known list.


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

what, would that be easier or something?  

i'll try to work that up after lunch.  mmm, lunch!


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

OK, posting what i have so far of the template...


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

I was looking at the cantobele and suddenly the vagabond appeared.  How vagabondish!    

Psionic Powers: A vagabond manifests powers as a psion (_discipline_) of 12th level. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Vagabonds generally select from the following powers:  astral caravan, aura alteration, burst, call to mind, catapsi, clairvoyant sense, correspond, detect psionics, psionic dimension door, dimension slide, dimension swap, psionic divination, dream travel, ectoplasmic form, ego whip, empathy, empty mind, psionic ethereal jaunt, fate link, psionic fly, form of doom, fusion, id insinuation, psionic identify, metaconcert, metamorphosis, greater metamorphosis, psionic mind blank, mind probe, mind thrust, mindlink, missive, mass missive, oak body, object reading, psionic overland flight, psionic phase door, psionic plane shift, psionic blast, psychic chirurgery, psychic crush, read thoughts, remote viewing, schism, sensitivity to psychic impressions, shadow body, skate, psionic teleport, psionic teleportation circle, teleport trigger, thought shield, psionic tongues, tower of iron will, ultrablast, wall walker.


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

i think i'd rather list its tendencies in the template, then give the examples with the sample creature.  let's set the mental stats for a typical vagabond before going further.  I decided on 20 Int even though that was on the high end of the given range for the 1E/2E stats.  given that it is a psionically powered creature, i think the Cha should be even higher.  Wis should be from 20-23 i think.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

Sounds good.

Int 20, Wis 23, Cha 25?


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

i like.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

I've been looking at the raggomoffyns and captured one template, and I think it will help us with this one.

Some bits...

Both the vagabond's and the base creature's statistics and special abilities are modified as noted here.

Size and Type: The creature’s size and type are unchanged.

Hit Dice: A vagabond maintains separate hit point totals for each of its two parts. (It looks like we might want to make the vagabond a separate creature, after all).

Initiative: Same as base creature.

Speed: Same as base creature.

Armor Class: Same as base creature (plus deflection bonus from vagabond?).

Attacks: Same as base creature.

Damage: Same as base creature.

Special Qualities: Both the vagabond and the base creature retain any special qualities they had previously.

Senses (Ex): The vagabond sees and hears everything that the base creature is able to.

Shared Damage (Ex): An attack on the base creature with a ghost touch weapons deals half its damage to the vagabond and half to the base creature.

Saves: A vagabond uses the base creature's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.

Abilities: A vagabond uses the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the base creature, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of the vagabond.


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I've been looking at the raggomoffyns and captured one template, and I think it will help us with this one.




some of it, i'm sure...  not entirely though, because a raggomoffyn has its own physical body whereas the vagabond does not.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Hit Dice: A vagabond maintains separate hit point totals for each of its two parts. (It looks like we might want to make the vagabond a separate creature, after all).




part of the problem here is that it assumes that attacks that hurt the base creature can actually harm the vagabond in any way...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Armor Class: Same as base creature (plus deflection bonus from vagabond?).




possibly.    keep that one in mind.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Special Qualities: Both the vagabond and the base creature retain any special qualities they had previously.
> 
> Senses (Ex): The vagabond sees and hears everything that the base creature is able to.




i like that.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Shared Damage (Ex): An attack on the base creature with a ghost touch weapons deals half its damage to the vagabond and half to the base creature.




see the comment on Hit Dice above.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Saves: A vagabond uses the base creature's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.




Fort and Ref yes, Will... not sure.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Abilities: A vagabond uses the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the base creature, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of the vagabond.




i think to avoid some confusion, we need to better define what the vagabond can do.  there are three methods by which a vagabond can have a body: create it, find it, or borrow it.  for the first two, we are assuming the body has no soul in the first place, so the vagabond just takes over lifeless flesh, inserting its mental stats where there were none previously.  for the third method, the base creature retains its own intellect while the vagabond is merged with it (i think?), so in effect you have a creature with one set of physical stats and two sets of mental stats!


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> some of it, i'm sure...  not entirely though, because a raggomoffyn has its own physical body whereas the vagabond does not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BOZ (Jul 24, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> The more I look at this, the vagabond must be a separate creature, even if it can do next to nothing without a host. Here's how I currently envision the three scenarios you describe:
> 
> Scenario 1: Vagabond creates body - Vagabond has some sort of guidelines on what creature type it can create, vagabonds mental scores and (Su) and (Sp) abilities are used, base creature's physical scores and (Ex) abilities are used.
> 
> ...




I give up; you are right.  I just didn?t want to deal with making it into an actual creature.    but yes, more than a few questions will be answered if we just buckle down first and make it a creature with proper stats.  

In scenario 3, the host creature is in full control and can ignore anything the vagabond wants (unless it uses a psionic power to dominate the host, which we didn't give it) 

12-HD sound good?  I think you suggested this before, anyway.  Let's hammer out the vagabond's personal stats before going back to working on the template.

*Vagabond*
Medium? Outsider (Incorporeal, Native?)
Hit Dice: Xd8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: X ft (X squares)
Armor Class: X (+X size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X +X melee (X+X)
Full Attack: X +X melee (X+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: psionics
Special Qualities: create host, darkvision 60 ft, detect vagabond, immunity to (non-psionic) mind-affecting effects, incorporeal traits, inhabit host, reanimate corpse
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str ---, Dex X, Con X, Int 20, Wis 23, Cha 25
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Often neutral 
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X?


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## Shade (Jul 25, 2005)

Let's give 12 HD a try.

Looking at similar incorporeal creatures of the same size...

Deathshrieker:  Str -, Dex 25, Con -, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 20
Banshee:  Str --, Dex 17, Con --, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 17
Bhut:  Str -, Dex 19, Con -, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 20
Shadow Demon:  Str -, Dex 24, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 20
Spectre:  Str —, Dex 16, Con —, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
Wraith:  Str —, Dex 16, Con —, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15

Dex falls within the range of 16-25 and Con should probably be 10.  I'd go with 19 Dex.

AC would be deflection, not natural armor.  Deflection bonus = Cha modifier (+7).

Fly speeds of similar critters:
Deathshrieker:  Fly 40 ft. (good)(8 squares)
Banshee:  Fly 80 ft. (good)
Bhut:  Fly 50 ft. (perfect)(10 squares)
Shadow Demon:  Fly 40 ft. (perfect)(8 squares)
Spectre:  40 ft. (8 squares), fly 80 ft. (perfect)
Wraith:  Fly 60 ft. (good) (12 squares)

So...I'd go with a fly speed of 40-80 feet, either good or perfect manueverability.

Assuming all that...

Hit Dice: 12d8 (54 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: X ft (X squares)
Armor Class: 21 (+4 Dex, +7 deflection), touch 21, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/-
Attack: X +X melee (X+X)
Full Attack: X +X melee (X+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: psionics
Special Qualities: create host, darkvision 60 ft, detect vagabond, immunity to (non-psionic) mind-affecting effects, incorporeal traits, inhabit host, reanimate corpse
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +14
Abilities: Str ---, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 23, Cha 25
Skills: X (13 at 15 ranks)
Feats: X (5 total)


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## BOZ (Jul 26, 2005)

OK, that's working so far...  they should be naturally invisible for one thing.

speed could be pretty high flight speed.

they *could* have a touch attack to initiate contact, or no attacks at all.


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2005)

Modified from invis stalker:

Natural Invisibility (Su): This ability is constant, allowing a vagabond to remain invisible even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.

For speed, 80 ft. (perfect) then?


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## BOZ (Aug 2, 2005)

cool, i likes.


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## Shade (Aug 2, 2005)

Breaking down the description to figure out possible skills...



			
				1E Monster Manual II said:
			
		

> A vagabond is often immediately recognizable if communication is established, as its odd speech and behavior patterns (always atypical of the form assumed) indicate its unfamiliarly with local customs and expectations.






			
				Complete Psionics Handbook said:
			
		

> If they are communicated with, it will soon become t that something is amiss, for they have none of their form's knowledge as to speech, behavior, customs, or expectations. However, they are able to use all of its attack and defense forms as well as movement and essential functions. Of course, many of these will be performed in strange unique ways.




I'd say this rules out Disguise.    



			
				1E Monster Manual II said:
			
		

> The vagabond is typically very inquisitive, often about mundane or personal details. If attacked, it will use its form to defend (or retreat) as best possible. If invited to accompany a party for an adventure, however, it will usually agree (90%), offering its form as an asset for use in exploration and (if necessary) combat. If the body is slain, the vagabond life force will depart, never to return. It an entire adventure is completed, the creature will give a special gift to each party member before departing, It can enchant any gem with a variety of word of recall (3 uses per enchantment) and will enchant 1 gem per character accompanying it on the adventure by way of thanks. (Only the possessor will know the 1-segment phrase needed to activate the gem).




Diplomacy, Knowledge (psionics), Psicraft, Sense Motive?



			
				Complete Psionics Handbook said:
			
		

> Lastly, they can inhabit a living body. In this last form, they are like back-seat drivers who make strong suggestions: they cannot do anything which the host life force does not want them to do. Thus, a possessed horse wouldn't  jump off a cliff unless it felt safe or confident about the jump. As noted above, vagabonds take the form of any creature with at least animal intelligence. They rarely inhabit forms of higher intelligence, however , such as player character races.




Handle Animal?



			
				Complete Psionics Handbook said:
			
		

> Ecology: Vagabonds seem to have come to the prime material plane to gain information. They are extremely curious and inquisitive often about mundane or personal details. If given the chance to adventure with the party, they are 90% likely to join. In exchange, they will use their considerable power to the party's benefit.




Gather Information, Search?

For feats, Negotiator and some psi-boosting feats?


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Breaking down the description to figure out possible skills...
> 
> I'd say this rules out Disguise.




i'd say so.    but i wouldn't give them a penalty, necessarily, and they do have the capacity to learn.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Diplomacy, Knowledge (psionics), Psicraft, Sense Motive?
> 
> Handle Animal?
> 
> ...




sure to all of that.  did we decide to do a non-psionic version (man, i hope not)?  if so, some of those would have to be replaced for that version.


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'd say so.    but i wouldn't give them a penalty, necessarily, and they do have the capacity to learn.




Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sure to all of that.  did we decide to do a non-psionic version (man, i hope not)?  if so, some of those would have to be replaced for that version.




Since these guys are completely based on psionics, I see no need for a non-psionic version.


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2005)

yay!


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## BOZ (Aug 9, 2005)

for skills, how about at 15 ranks each: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (psionics), Listen, Psicraft, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device

you know i don't normally like to do that, but i had to stretch just to figure out those 13 skills.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2005)

Sounds good.


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## BOZ (Aug 9, 2005)

OK, a vagabond has 5 feats, of which Negotiator has already been suggested.

I think at least 1-4 should be psionic related feats.

Possible suggestions: Combat Manifesting, Improved Initiative, Persuasive, Blind-Fight, Alertness, Lightning Reflexes, Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2005)

Other possible psionic feats:  Power Penetration, Greater Power Penetration, Narrow Mind, Opportunity Power, Psionic Affinity, Psionic Endowment, Psionic Meditation, any Metapsionic feat.


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## BOZ (Aug 10, 2005)

any preferences?    i'm not sure where to go with this one.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2005)

I'd go with Negotiator, Power Penetration, Psionic Affinity, Psionic Endowment, and Psionic Meditation.  We'll need to give it at least 7 ranks of Concentration to meet the prereqs for the last one.   It probably needs Concentration as a skill, anyway, since it is a manifester.


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## BOZ (Aug 11, 2005)

hmm - don't know why i didn't give it Concentration in the first place!    i'll switch out Disguise, since it probably shouldn't have any ranks in that at first anyway.  

updating in homebrews.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2005)

Attack and Full Attack:  "-"?

Environment: Any land and underground (and thus Native subtype)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 10 or as host?
Treasure: None?
Alignment: Often neutral 
Advancement: By character class (as psion)?
Level Adjustment: - (honestly, it's just too complicated to play)


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## BOZ (Aug 12, 2005)

would it ever have occasion to make an incorporeal touch attack?  say, to "possess" a creature?  or, since the creature would have to be more or less willing (or at least not unwilling), would the touch attack be foregone?


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## BOZ (Aug 22, 2005)

Also, is Medium size fine?  I was thinking it could really be any size, but Medium would help since we wouldn't have to give it any size modifiers then.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2005)

Yeah, I think Medium works just fine.


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## BOZ (Aug 22, 2005)

and


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2005)

The only reason I could think would be to possess an animal (didn't they mention a horse?) which probably would never be "willing".


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## BOZ (Aug 22, 2005)

well, we could go ahead and give it wild empathy?  it would "possess" animals with a friendly reaction, and then once the animal's has the vagabond's increased intelligence it would be able to see the benefits of having its powers.

if we do that, then a touch attack is really never necessary.


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## Shade (Aug 24, 2005)

That just might work.


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## BOZ (Aug 24, 2005)

here is what we gave the actaeon, would that be sufficient?  should we add vermin and other mindless creatures?  or just make it a general empathy check for any creature type?

Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except that the actaeon has a +6 racial bonus on the check (as well as a +2 synergy bonus from its ranks in Handle Animal).


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2005)

Probably stick with standard wild empathy.   If it wants to be of the other types, it can simply create the body, right?


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## BOZ (Aug 26, 2005)

well, it can do that anyway.    but it doesn't imitate well.


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## BOZ (Sep 21, 2005)

my point being that if it can choose between befriending an animal and hanging out in its body, or creating an animal and imitating it poorly, it will choose the first option.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2005)

Then I'd stick with traditional wild empathy.  It would probably need some other weird ability to communicate with vermin and mindless critters.  Even in the vermin lord in BoVD can't talk with those things.


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## BOZ (Sep 23, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> here is what we gave the actaeon, would that be sufficient?  should we add vermin and other mindless creatures?  or just make it a general empathy check for any creature type?
> 
> Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except that the actaeon has a +6 racial bonus on the check (as well as a +2 synergy bonus from its ranks in Handle Animal).




I'll just give it the above then (minus the synergy part if not applicable), since that was copied right from the dryad's entry in the first place.  Keep the racial bonus at +6?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2005)

Agreed.


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## BOZ (Sep 23, 2005)

and nothing for vermin?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2005)

Yep, nothing for vermin.


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## BOZ (Sep 23, 2005)

man, we've been on this one since the dawn of time... i'll see if i can put some work into it over the weekend.


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2005)

Yeah, we should rename this thing "the eternal".   :\


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## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

OK, here is one thing i can think of to work on.  since a vagabond functions like an actual psion (as opposed to something with psi-like abilities), have we seen a creature that has this reflected in the stat block?  elder brain perhaps?


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2005)

Yep, psionic elder brain, psionic ulitharid, psionic mindflayer, etc.


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## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

cool.  i'll take a look at the LoM format tonight if i get a chance.


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## BOZ (Sep 27, 2005)

Psionic Powers: A vagabond manifests powers as a psion (discipline) of 12th level. The save DCs are (Charisma)-based.

Typical Psion Powers Known (power points 126+): 
1st - burst (nomad), call to mind, detect psionics, empathy, empty mind, mind thrust (DC X), mindlink (telepath), missive, skate;
2nd - clairvoyant sense (seer), dimension swap (nomad), ego whip (DC X), id insinuation (DC X), psionic identify, mass missive, object reading (seer), read thoughts (telepath) (DC X), sensitivity to psychic impressions (seer), thought shield, psionic tongues;
3rd - astral caravan (nomad), ectoplasmic form (egoist), fate link (seer), psionic blast (DC X);
4th - correspond, psionic dimension door, psionic divination, psionic fly (nomad), metamorphosis (egoist), remote viewing (seer) (DC X), schism (telepath);
5th - catapsi (DC X), metaconcert (telepath), mind probe (telepath) (DC X), psionic plane shift, psychic crush (DC X), psionic teleport (nomad), teleport trigger (nomad), tower of iron will;
6th - aura alteration, psionic overland flight.

Of the available psionic disciplines, it would seem that Nomad, Seer, and Telepath would best advantage them, and each would suit their personalities and capabilities. Of those, I am of the opinion that Telepath is most useful for the way they function (though, unfortunately, picking any one of those three cuts them off from powers that they might otherwise really make use of).

Once the powers relating to the extra disciplines are cut off, there would only need to be a few more trimmed off the list since a 12th-level psion knows 24 powers.


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## Shade (Sep 27, 2005)

I agree that Telepath makes the most sense.

We can always use the Expanded Knowledge feat to give it a discipline power it really needs from another list.


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## BOZ (Sep 28, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I agree that Telepath makes the most sense.




Good!    that gives us the following list.  4 must be removed to get us to the maximum of 24 powers for a psion of level 12.

1st - call to mind, detect psionics, empathy, empty mind, mind thrust (DC X), mindlink, missive, skate;
2nd - ego whip (DC X), id insinuation (DC X), psionic identify, mass missive, read thoughts (DC X), thought shield, psionic tongues;
3rd - psionic blast (DC X);
4th - correspond, psionic dimension door, psionic divination, schism;
5th - catapsi (DC X), metaconcert, mind probe (DC X), psionic plane shift, psychic crush (DC X), tower of iron will;
6th - aura alteration, psionic overland flight.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We can always use the Expanded Knowledge feat to give it a discipline power it really needs from another list.




We removed the following from the list by choosing telepath:

Burst, clairvoyant sense, dimension swap, object reading, sensitivity to psychic impressions, astral caravan, ectoplasmic form, fate link, psionic fly, metamorphosis, remote viewing, psionic teleport, teleport trigger

Bearing in mind that this is only a sample list rather than a comprehensive list, do we really need to bother with giving it feats and the like for this?


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2005)

I'd ditch psionic identify, psionic tongues, metaconcert, and psionic overland flight.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Bearing in mind that this is only a sample list rather than a comprehensive list, do we really need to bother with giving it feats and the like for this?




Good point.  Probably not necessary, then.


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## BOZ (Sep 29, 2005)

actually, i kind of really like metaconcert.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2005)

Keep it, then.  I just didn't see alot of chances for it to share with other psionic creatures, but I could be wrong!


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## BOZ (Sep 30, 2005)

Hmm... probably true.  But it is a cool power to have.    well, we can live without it.  

I think the three methods of obtaining a body need to be made into powers that a vagabond has.  Listing that just as flavor text just doesn't seem right.    I think the first two powers result in the template being used, whereas the third would not require the template.

let me make proto-versions of these abilities that we can fix up...



			
				Complete Psionics Handbook said:
			
		

> First, they can simply form the body with their unusual powers. When this occurs, the vagabond looks like a small blob of ink which appears on the ground, then quickly enlarges into three dimensions, filling out, then forming the finer details. Such a change can be tremendously terrifying if the chosen form is something like a wolfwere.




"Create Host" (Su): (well, no ideas here, but it should borrow some parts from the ability below) A vagabond can recreate the corporeal form of any creature it has observed...



			
				Complete Psionics Handbook said:
			
		

> Secondly vagabonds can take over a freshly dead body, curing it of all ailments.




this should be mostly complete:

"Reanimate Corpse" (Su): A vagabond can restore a semblance of life to a deceased creature instantaneously by entering and merging permanently with it.  It can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than twelve days.  The body is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points). 

While this effect closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole.  Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life.  None of the dead creature's equipment or possessions are affected in any way by the vagabond.

The subject's soul does not return to the body while a vagabond inhabits it.  If the body is killed while a vagabond inhabits it, any spell that restores life to a dead creature (such as raise dead or resurrection) will return the creature's soul to its body as normal.

Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be raised by a vagabond.



			
				Complete Psionics Handbook said:
			
		

> Lastly, they can inhabit a living body. In this last form, they are like back-seat drivers who make strong suggestions: they cannot do anything which the host life force does not want them to do. Thus, a possessed horse wouldn't  jump off a cliff unless it felt safe or confident about the jump.




borrowed from the glimmerskin as suggested way back when:

"Inhabit Host" (Su): A vagabond can bond with any willing, living host with an Intelligence score of 1 or greater.  A bonded host gains access to the vagabond's skills and feats, as well as its psionic powers (although the host cannot do anything with these powers which the vagabond will not allow).  In exchange, the host shares half of any earned experience points with the vagabond.  

A vagabond and its host are in constant telepathic contact so long as the bond lasts.  The vagabond cannot force its host to do anything, although it can use skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate on the host to get what it wants. Either the vagabond or the host can end the bond at any time.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2005)

These are looking good.

Create Likeness (Su): A vagabond can recreate the corporeal form of any creature it has observed.  It may create a semblance of any creature within one size category (?) of itself.  This likeness functions in all ways as if it were a standard version of the chosen creature.  It cannot take the form of a unique creature (such as an archdevil), nor can it create the likeness of a creature with class levels.  

I'm sure this needs work, but maybe that'll provide a little foundation.


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## BOZ (Sep 30, 2005)

i'm cutting out the size category restriction.  

Create Likeness (Su): A vagabond can recreate the form of any living corporeal creature it has observed. This likeness functions in all ways as if it were a standard version of the chosen creature. It cannot take the form of a construct, undead, or a powerful unique creature (such as an archdevil), nor can it create the likeness of a creature with class levels.  It takes a full round to form the body, at which point the vagabond merges permanently with it.  If the body is killed, it is completely destroyed.

any comments or suggestions on the other two abilities?


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## TurlinBlackwind (Sep 30, 2005)

Wow a Vagabond, thats a blast from the past. I'm still reading the rest of this thread but I jumped to the end, just to see whats current. Lets see, psionic thingy that possessed an animal and sometimes became the companion of someone they liked (like Psuedodragons with the ability to give you an anurism) I don't remember right off, is there a 3rd ed version of the psionic draining parasites created by wizards to get rid of the 'false spellcasters'?


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm cutting out the size category restriction.
> 
> Create Likeness (Su): A vagabond can recreate the form of any living corporeal creature it has observed. This likeness functions in all ways as if it were a standard version of the chosen creature. It cannot take the form of a construct, undead, or a powerful unique creature (such as an archdevil), nor can it create the likeness of a creature with class levels.  It takes a full round to form the body, at which point the vagabond merges permanently with it.  If the body is killed, it is completely destroyed.
> 
> any comments or suggestions on the other two abilities?




All three look good now.

Turin - I don't believe I've seen the creature you've mentioned in any 3.x source.


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## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

haven't updated in awhile; doing so now.


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2005)

Man, we are finally nearing the end of what I consider our toughest conversion to date.    

Attack and Full Attack:   Incorporeal touch +16 melee touch (power) or power +16 ranged touch (power)

For CR adjustment of template, what is 12 levels of psionic manifestation worth?  +12?


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## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

i don't know, perhaps.  but straight CR adjustment for levels is usually reserved for applying all aspects of a class (HD, save bonuses, etc) to a creature, is it not?


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## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

besides that, some remaining issues.  i think the creature writeup for the vagabond itself is basically done, though some fixes are required on the flavor text.  as i've decided before, when the vagabond inhabits a body with no mind, the template should be applied, and the flavor text and template text should reflect that.

the template is basically ready, but maybe we should alter the name to differentiate it from a vagabond with no body at all, or borrowing the body of a living creature?


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## Mortis (Oct 5, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the template is basically ready, but maybe we should alter the name to differentiate it from a vagabond with no body at all, or borrowing the body of a living creature?




How about the Vagabond-age template. 

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Oct 5, 2005)

*groan*


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2005)

It's name is Bond.  Vaga Bond.    

How about Vagabonded Creature?


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## BOZ (Oct 5, 2005)

ewww how generic.    how about Vagabond Host or Vagabond Form or something like that (still not great, but closer).


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2005)

We could take a cue from the raggomofyn/captured ones and call it "Bonded One" or "Mindmerged Host" or something.


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## BOZ (Oct 5, 2005)

well, mindmerged doesn't work since with the template the only mind present is the vagabond's itself (i.e., the host body would be mindless without the possessing spirit).  neither would bonded work so well, since both bonded and mindmerged better describe the vagabond using with a living host (i.e., becoming the backseat driver).

think of the templated version as a living zombie with an alien intelligence controlling it.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2005)

Ahh...gotcha.

How about "Vagabond Vessel"?


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## BOZ (Oct 5, 2005)

THERE we go.  brilliant!


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2005)

I don't know if I'd go that far, but I suppose it works.    

Some more thoughts...

"A vagabond is neutral in alignment until it takes on another form.."

I'd lose that bit...it is always neutral, its host just might not be.  

", which it accomplishes in one of three ways. The first way is to form a corporeal body from (nothing? Air? Matter?),"

How about ectoplasm, since it figures prominently in psionics?

"starting as a small inky blob on the ground that quickly enlarges into three dimensions, fills out, and forms finer details. The second method is to find a fresh corpse, which the vagabond enters and controls, restoring the body to full health. Lastly, a vagabond can inhabit a willing living creature. Regardless, the form chosen must have an Intelligence score, and once a vagabond chooses its form it is locked into that form and cannot leave (except through the use of psionics). The vagabond gains all the abilities of the form it has chosen (except Su and Sp?),"

Yeah, it probably shouldn't gain Su and Sp.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 6, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd lose that bit...it is always neutral, its host just might not be.




I'm not sure at all why I wrote that!  It should be Often Neutral, since the 1E & 2E stat blocks say "Neutral (any)" and the text on both suggest that there are good and evil ones.

updating in homebrews...


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2005)

You can probably eliminate all the lines in the template that just state "Same as base creature" as this seems to be the default now.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 6, 2005)

sounds good.  do you see any issues with this one?


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2005)

Not at the moment.  This one has been so different all along though, one might be staring me straight in the face and I'd miss it.


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## BOZ (Oct 6, 2005)

i'll print it out and have a good look at it.


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## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

OK, I don't see many issues.  The main stat block has a few missing items.

We will need a sample creature to test out the template on.

There is also this:  "It an entire adventure is completed, the creature will give a special gift to each party member before departing.  It can enchant any gem with a variety of word of recall (3 uses per enchantment) and will enchant 1 gem per character accompanying it on the adventure by way of thanks. (Only the possessor will know the 1-segment phrase needed to activate the gem)."


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2005)

Vagabond Gem:  A vagabond can create a gem from psionic ectoplasm, which it gives to those creatures who have acted as its host and helped it achieve its mission.  The bearer can use _word of recall _ 3/day.  The sanctuary is chosen at the time the vagabond creates the gem.  The vagabond can create a gem as a standard action, without meeting the prerequisites or expending any components.   A vagabond may create only one gem per host in its lifetime.
  Strong conjuration; CL (at least 11th); Craft Wondrous Item, _word of recall_; Price - (gift from vagabond only).


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## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

the original description was a bit more generous, so unless that is really unbalancing i think i will be a bit more generous too.  

updating in homebrews...


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2005)

That's fine.  Since the DM controls the vagabond, he controls the gem creation.

Since it is created psionically, it shoudl be ML and Craft Universal Item.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2005)

Here's a start.  I think we need to add the Psionic subtype to both the Vagabond and Vagabond Vessel template.

Vagabond Vessel Girallon
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 7d10+14 (52 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 40 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+17
Attack: Claw +12 melee (1d4+6)
Full Attack: 4 claws +12 melee (1d4+6) and bite +7 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d4+9
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 23, Cha 25
Skills: 15 x (8 + Int modifier [5])
Feats: 5
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or company (5–8)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8–10 HD (Large); 11–21 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: --

Girallons are savage, magical cousins of the gorilla. They are aggressive, bloodthirsty, highly territorial, and incredibly strong.

When moving on the ground, a girallon walks on its legs and lower arms. An adult girallon is about 8 feet tall, broad-chested, and covered in thick, pure white fur. It weighs about 800 pounds.

Combat

Girallons attack anything that enters their territory, even others of their kind. Their senseless belligerence is the one characteristic that keeps their numbers in check. Still, the creatures show some cunning.

A solitary girallon usually conceals itself in the branches of a tree or under a pile of leaves and brush, with only its nose showing. When it spots or scents prey, it charges to the attack. A girallon picks up prey that is small enough to carry and withdraws, often vanishing into the trees before the victim's companions can do anything to retaliate. Against larger foes, a girallon seeks to tear a single opponent to bits as quickly as it can.

Psionic Powers: A vagabond manifests powers as a psion (telepath) of 12th level. The save DCs are Intelligence-based.
Typical Psion Powers Known (power points 156): 1st - call to mind, detect psionics, empathy, empty mind, mind thrust (DC 16), mindlink, missive, skate; 2nd - ego whip (DC 17), id insinuation (DC 17), mass missive, read thoughts (DC 17), thought shield; 3rd - psionic blast (DC 18); 4th - correspond, psionic dimension door, psionic divination, schism; 5th - catapsi (DC 20), mind probe (DC 20), psionic plane shift, psychic crush (DC 20), tower of iron will; 6th - aura alteration.

Rend (Ex): A girallon that hits with two or more claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d4+12 points of damage.

Detect Vagabond (Ex): A vagabond can detect the presence of another vagabond at a range of up to a mile, regardless of whether the other vagabond has taken a corporeal form or not.

Immunity to Mind-Affecting Effects (Ex): A vagabond is immune to mind-affecting effects that are not psionic in nature.

Senses (Ex): The vagabond vessel sees and hears everything that the base creature is able to.

Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except that the vagabond has a +6 racial bonus on the check.

Skills: A girallon has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

Agreed on the subtype, hello!

The main vagabond stat block still has a couple missing/uncertain items.


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## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

also, the flavor text will need to be changed... after all, as a vessel of a vagabond, the girallon will probably not behave that way (unless the vagabond had a chance to obseve the girallon's behavior).  


also, should we state somewhere that the vagabond inside a creature loses the incorporeal subtype?


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

Heh...I didn't figure the templated girallon posted...ENWorld slowed down to a crawl when I left work, so I just killed my browser while it was still posting.    

Anyway, it definitely still needs work.   Here's take two:

Vagabond Vessel Girallon
Large Magical Beast (Psionic)
Hit Dice: 7d10+14 (52 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 40 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+17
Attack: Claw +12 melee (1d4+6)
Full Attack: 4 claws +12 melee (1d4+6) and bite +7 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Psionics, rend 2d4+9
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., detect vagabond, immunity to mind-affecting effects, low-light vision, scent, senses, wild empathy
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 23, Cha 25
Skills: Bluff +22, Concentration +15, Diplomacy +26, Disguise +7 (+9 acting), Gather Information +22, Handle Animal +22, Intimidate +24, Knowledge (psionics) +20, Listen +21, Psicraft +20, Search +20, Sense Motive +21, Spot +21, Survival +6 (+8 following tracks), Use Magic Device +22
Feats: Negotiator, Power Penetration, Psionic Affinity, Psionic Endowment, Psionic Meditation
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or company (5–8)
Challenge Rating: 6 + ? 
Treasure: None
Alignment: (as vagabond)
Advancement: 8–10 HD (Large); 11–21 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: --

Girallons are savage, magical cousins of the gorilla. They are aggressive, bloodthirsty, highly territorial, and incredibly strong.

When moving on the ground, a girallon walks on its legs and lower arms. An adult girallon is about 8 feet tall, broad-chested, and covered in thick, pure white fur. It weighs about 800 pounds.

Combat

A vagabond vessel girallon behaves quite differently from others of its kind.  It prefers to avoid combat, and when engaged relies on its psionic powers before resorting to melee assaults.

Psionic Powers: A vagabond vessel girallon manifests powers as a psion (telepath) of 12th level. The save DCs are Intelligence-based.

Typical Psion Powers Known (power points 156): 1st - call to mind, detect psionics, empathy, empty mind, mind thrust (DC 16), mindlink, missive, skate; 2nd - ego whip (DC 17), id insinuation (DC 17), mass missive, read thoughts (DC 17), thought shield; 3rd - psionic blast (DC 18); 4th - correspond, psionic dimension door, psionic divination, schism; 5th - catapsi (DC 20), mind probe (DC 20), psionic plane shift, psychic crush (DC 20), tower of iron will; 6th - aura alteration.

Rend (Ex): A vagabond vessel girallon that hits with two or more claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d4+12 points of damage.

Detect Vagabond (Ex): A vagabond vessel girallon can detect the presence of another vagabond at a range of up to a mile, regardless of whether the other vagabond has taken a corporeal form or not.

Senses (Ex): The vagabond sees and hears everything that the girallon is able to.

Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except that the vagabond vessel girallon has a +6 racial bonus on the check.

Skills: A vagabond vessel girallon has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.


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## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

cool, that works.   

any idea on that CR adjustment?


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

At least +6...if we were adding psion levels to a girallon, they'd be unassoicated class levels, so 1/2 CR, or 12/2=6. 

Which raises a question...what happens when a vagabond inhabits a host who is already a manifester?  Do they treat their power points and powers known separately, or do they pool them?  Is the XP award for defeating an inhabited host a sum of both the host and the vagabond?  Mind beginning to boggle...


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## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

when inhabiting a living manifester, i guess they could form a power point pool, how would that work?


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

Something like this...



			
				XPsiHB said:
			
		

> If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have. For example, a 5th-level psion/5th-level psychic warrior has 20 power points from her psion levels (plus any bonus points from her Intelligence score) and 7 power points from her psychic warrior levels (plus any bonus points for a high Wisdom score), for a total of 27 power points (plus any bonus points). These points can be used to manifest any psion or psychic warrior powers the character knows. Your psychic energy springs from a single common source, and is not segregated by your training.
> 
> While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know. For example, a 10th-level psion/2nd-level psychic warrior can spend up to 10 points when manifesting a psion power, but only up to 2 points when manifesting a psychic warrior power. Your wellspring of psychic energy is a single pool, but you might possess very different levels of training or accomplishment with powers you learned from different classes.


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## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> At least +6...if we were adding psion levels to a girallon, they'd be unassoicated class levels, so 1/2 CR, or 12/2=6.




wouldn't they be unassociated levels regardless, since you are only getting the powers and not the BAB, save bonuses, skill points, feats, etc that normally go along with class levels?


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

Well, yeah, but I was just using that as a method of extrapolation.  How does +6 work out on our girallon friend?  Does it look like a CR 12 creature?


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## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

it's a bit of a stretch.  yes, it is a whole lot of psionic power, but i don't think the challenge it presents is quite doubled.

meanwhile:

If a vagabond inhabits a creature that has its own power points, the two creatures combine their power points to make up their reserve.  The vagabond and host creature can use these power points to manifest any powers that either has.  The manifester levels of the vagabond and host remain the same, so the manifester level for any power used is dependent on which creature is using the power.  If the bond between the vagabond and its host ends, the two creatures divide up the remaining power points evenly (if either has died, the survivor retains all the power points), up to each creature's normal maximum.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

So maybe +4 or +5?  Or should it vary based on the base creature's HD, like the half-fiend template?

Your power point pool looks good.


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## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

how does the half-fiend do it?


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

Challenge Rating: HD 4 or less, as base creature +1; HD 5 to 10, as base creature +2; HD 11 or more, as base creature +3.


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## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

would doubling those values work fine?


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

Yeah, I think so.  Good idea!


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## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

now a CR 10 creature the girallon might just be!  

what are we doing for level adjustment?


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2005)

I'm thinking "-" for LA, since I can't really envision them as a playable race.


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## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

OK, updating again, any further issues with this guy?


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2005)

I think he's finished.  I'd really like the Battle of All Alignments guys to take a stab at it and let us know how the CR plays out.


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## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

yeah, they can get to that when they get to it.  which reminds me that i never did fix that eladrin they wanted me to work.  could you bump that thread for me?

and by the way, WHOO!!  glad to be done with that one.  which took longer, the vagabond or the horgar?  

by the way, i have had a creature already picked out to work on in this thread for months.


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, they can get to that when they get to it.  which reminds me that i never did fix that eladrin they wanted me to work.  could you bump that thread for me?




Will do.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> and by the way, WHOO!!  glad to be done with that one.  which took longer, the vagabond or the horgar?




I think the vagabond took the longest ever...or at least it felt that way.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> by the way, i have had a creature already picked out to work on in this thread for months.




Nah, I don't like that one.  Next!


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 10, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, they can get to that when they get to it.  which reminds me that i never did fix that eladrin they wanted me to work.  could you bump that thread for me?
> 
> and by the way, WHOO!!  glad to be done with that one.  which took longer, the vagabond or the horgar?
> 
> by the way, i have had a creature already picked out to work on in this thread for months.



 Which one?


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## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

the Nawidnehr from The Sea Devils.    i was going to do it right after the Anguiliian, but i got sidetracked by the vagabond!


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

and here they are!  

NAWIDNEHR (SHARWERE)
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate and Tropical Ocean
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High to Exceptional (13-16)
TREASURE: (J, K, W)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVEMENT: 12, Sw 24
HIT DICE: 12+1
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	 5d4+5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Roar, swallow whole
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Hit only by +1 or iron weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (30' long)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 7,000

The nawidnehr (NAH-widd-near) is a great shark capable of assuming humanoid form. this powerful marine predator has an insatiable desire to kill. Also called the roaring shark, or sharkwere, the nawidnehr uses its shape-shifting abilities to pursue its prey onto land or insinuate itself into an unsuspecting party for a surprise attack.

In their natural forms, nawidnehrs resemble great white sharks. Nawidnehrs, however, boast much more complex coloration. Specimens dwelling in cooler waters tend toward dark blue, with dots or bands of gray or muddy yellow. Some cool water specimens tend toward brighter colors - such as blue-green or yellow - with yellow or white spots, or stripes. All nawidnehrs have pale underbellies, usually a lighter shade or the prevailing color on their upper bodies.

All nawidnehrs speak the common tongue of humanity. Each individual sharkwere speaks several (1d4+1) other demihuman racial tongues as well.

Combat: Nawidnehrs relish battle. They usually begin attacking with a roar. In shark form, this roar is a thunderous boom that fills a cone 5 feet wide at the creature's mouth, 50 feet long, and 35 feet wide at the far end. Creatures within the cone sudder a shockwave that renders them unconscious for 2d4 rounds ? unless they make successful saving throws vs. breath weapon.

When in humanoid form, the creature's roar takes the form of a haunting song. All listeners within 50 feet must make a saving throw vs. spell. Failure leaves the listener paralyzed with fright for 1d4+4 rounds.

Sometimes the creature decides not to roar when attacking in its natural form. Rather, it lunges at swimmers from below, imposing a -3 penalty to its opponents' surprise rolls.

In melee, a nawidnehr's jagged teeth and powerful jaws can tear away huge chunks of flesh, producing wounds that bleed profusely. A nawidnehr can swallow a man-sized or smaller creature whole on any attack roll that exceeds the minimum number required by 5 or more. For example, if a nawidnehr attacks a sahuagin (AC 5), it swallows the sahuagin whole on a roll of 9 or higher.

A nawidnehr's stomach can hold two man-sized creatures at once, or the equivalent volume of smaller creatures (about four small or eight tiny creatures). Swallowed victims suffer 15 points of damage each round they remain inside the sharkwere. A swallowed creature can wield natural claws or small-sized slashing weapons (type S) normally against the creature's internal Armor Class of 5. Larger weapons inflict only 1 point of damage per attack, plus any modifier for enchantment. No other damage bonuses apply. Victims escape after inflicting 20 points of damage; only one half of this damage total actually applies against the nawidnehr's hit points.

A nawidnehr is harmed by only +1 or better magical weapons, or by weapons forged from cold iron. A swallowed victim can cut his way free with normal weapons, but no damage accrues to the nawidnehr in the process.

Nawidnehrs can transform themselves into any humanoid creature they have seen. However, the assumed form cannot be greater than huge size. Each change requires but a moment; the creature can attack during the same round as it changes - though it can make only one change each round. The assumed form can be either gender.

When nawidnehrs use their shape-shifting ability to fool humanoid victims, they try to lure the victim into the water before attacking. They usually leap into the sea, dragging paralyzed victims with them. However, sharkweres will grappled with an opponent and enter the water with a victim in their grasps. Nawidnehrs have effective Strength scores of 18/00 or 19 for this purpose.

Habitat/Society: Nawidnehrs hunt victims every waking moment; they can't stand to leave any other creature in peace. Even the sahuagin fear these powerful predators. Sharkweres swim the oceans, seeking prey as any natural predator. However, these craft beats often pose as fishermen, marooned sailors, or friendly natives to attract victims. When encountered under the sea, there is a 40% chance that 2d4+1 large sharks (7-8 HD) accompany a nawidnehr.

Nawidnehrs and weresharks hate each other and will attack each other on sight.

Ecology: Nawidnehrs will happily deplete the fish stocks in an entire area before moving on to ravage another locale. Though they require food, destruction remains their true goal.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

some preliminary stats for the nawidnehr:

*Nawidnehr*
Huge Magical Beast (Aquatic, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 12d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares), swim 60 ft
Armor Class: 22 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (5d4+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (5d4+X)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: improved grab, roar, song, swallow whole
Special Qualities: alternate form, damage reduction X/cold iron or magic?, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 15, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 5

Environment: Temperate and warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary or (with 3-5 sharks)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 13-24 HD (Huge); 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: +X?

COMBAT

Originally found in Monstrous Arcana: The Sea Devils (1997, Skip Williams).


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

Here's how the jackalwere and seawolf handle the transformation:

Alternate Form (Su): A jackalwere can shift form as a standard action as though using the polymorph spell. Equipment a jackalwere in human or hybrid form is wearing or carrying transforms to become part of its jackal form, and magic items cease functioning while it remains in this form. In hybrid form, a jackalwere can wear light or medium armor without modification, but wearing heavy armor is impossible. Equipment a jackalwere in human form is wearing or carrying does not transform when it assumes hybrid form. When a jackalwere in animal form assumes hybrid form, its equipment returns to its normal form and magic items resume functioning.

Skills: *In jackal form, a jackalwere is effectively disguised as an animal, gaining a +10 bonus on Disguise checks while in this form.

Change Shape (Su): A seawolf's natural form is that of a wolf-headed seal, but it can assume two other forms: a human or wolf-human hybrid. The human form is unique; a seawolf in human form always assumes the same appearance and traits, much as a lycanthrope would. In human form, a seawolf cannot use its bite attack, and it does not convey its curse.

In hybrid form, a seawolf's swim speed is reduce to 20 feet, but it has a much faster land speed, and it gains two claw attacks (or can use its claws to wield weapons, if it prefers). This form otherwise resembles the seawolf form.

A seawolf remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does a seawolf revert to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell, however, reveals its natural form if it is in human form.

I think I prefer the latter, as it is more recent.


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

keep in mind, they did what they did most likely because the seawolf was traditionally a lycanthrope, so they were most likely doing their best to emulate what the lycanthrope template would do.

a nawidnehr is not locked into a single humanoid form, unlike lycanthropes.


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

Yeah, but the lycans have alternate form like the jackalwere.  The seawolf actually breaks the mold.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

weird - lycanthropes should only have on alternative form, logically.


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

Two if you count hybrids.    

Actually, that makes sense, since dopplegangers have change shape.  I guess the seawolf is the screwy one.

It appears that alternate form = usually set form/appearance while change shape = any form/appearance with some limitations.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

the two abilities are slightly different (see MM p305-306).

alternate form is like polymorph, with a limited number of forms.  change shape allows you to assume any from, though often within the limitation of a specific type of creature.

i compared the qualities of each ability, and the only difference i really notice is that with alternate form you lose the natural armor and Str, Dex, and Con of your standard form, and gain the ones of your new form.  otherwise, there is very little difference.  

i think alternate form sounds the best for that reason, but i want it to be able to take any humanoid or monstrous humanoid form (human one round, sahuagin the next, then a lizardfolk, and then a dwarf).


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i think alternate form sounds the best for that reason, but i want it to be able to take any humanoid or monstrous humanoid form (human one round, sahuagin the next, then a lizardfolk, and then a dwarf).




...which sounds almost exactly like the doppelganger's change shape to me.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

right, therein lies my quandry.    ah well, retaining its ability scores and natural armor in humanoid form won't hurt anything now will it?


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

Only its opponents.


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

and there you have it.    looks like that is the way to go then.

Change Shape (Su): A nawidnehr can assume the shape of any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant of Huge or smaller size.  In shark form, a nawidnehr cannot use its song ability.  In humanoid form, a nawidnehr cannot use its bite attack, roar, or swallow whole ability.

A nawidnehr remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a nawidnehr revert to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell, however, reveals its natural form if it is in human form.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

Excellent.    



> In melee, a nawidnehr's jagged teeth and powerful jaws can tear away huge chunks of flesh, producing wounds that bleed profusely.




Borrowing from the nycaloth...

Bleeding Wounds (Ex): A wound from a nawidnehr's bite attack continues to bleed after the injury was inflicted. Each wound bleeds for 1 point of damage per round thereafter. Multiple bite wounds result in cumulative bleeding loss (two wounds deal 2 points of damage per round, and so on). The bleeding can be stopped only by a successful DC 15 Heal check or the application of any cure spell or other healing spell (heal, mass heal, and so on).


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

also excellent!  

you liking this guy?


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

Yeah, this guy is sharking awesome.    

Traits common to sharks:

Blindsense (Ex): A shark can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the shark is underwater.

Keen Scent (Ex): A shark can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.

Skills: A shark has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

sure, makes sense...


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> In melee, a nawidnehr's jagged teeth and powerful jaws can tear away huge chunks of flesh, producing wounds that bleed profusely. A nawidnehr can swallow a man-sized or smaller creature whole on any attack roll that exceeds the minimum number required by 5 or more. For example, if a nawidnehr attacks a sahuagin (AC 5), it swallows the sahuagin whole on a roll of 9 or higher.
> 
> A nawidnehr's stomach can hold two man-sized creatures at once, or the equivalent volume of smaller creatures (about four small or eight tiny creatures). Swallowed victims suffer 15 points of damage each round they remain inside the sharkwere. A swallowed creature can wield natural claws or small-sized slashing weapons (type S) normally against the creature's internal Armor Class of 5. Larger weapons inflict only 1 point of damage per attack, plus any modifier for enchantment. No other damage bonuses apply. Victims escape after inflicting 20 points of damage; only one half of this damage total actually applies against the nawidnehr's hit points.




Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a nawidnehr must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe in the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A nawidnehr can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to one size smaller by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes X (dire shark does 2d6+6..close to the 15 suggested) points of bludgeoning damage plus X (dire shark does 1d8+4) points of acid damage per round from the nawidnehr's digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out using a light slashing or piercing weapon by dealing 20 points of damage to the nawidnehr's digestive tract (AC X). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Huge nawidnehr's gullet can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium or Small, 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive, or 512 Fine or smaller opponents.  (Borrowed numbers from dire shark, also Huge).


----------



## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

ah cool, i didn't think of the dire shark.  they can probably use a bunch of stats from those guys.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

...speaking of which...

Dire Shark Abilities: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 10.

Nat armor +7

Swim 60 ft.

Cold aquatic.

Skills: Listen, Spot, Swim
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (bite), Toughness (x4), Weapon Focus (bite)

I'm sure some of that will help.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

oh yeah.    they were rated to have a Str of 18/00 - 19, which would be 23-24 now, so 23 Str is fine.  did the text say anything about them being unusally quick?  Wis and especially Cha could be higher.

naturally, they will have more skills than that since they are significantly smarter than a dumb animal.   we may go for some different feats, but Weapon Focus is a keeper.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

The dire shark?  No, it's flavor text essentially amounts to that it eats what it wants, when it wants.    

FWIW, "This monstrous fish can grow to a length of 25 feet and weigh more than 20,000 pounds."


----------



## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

no, i meant did the sharkwere have any notes about it being unusally quick.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

Oh, sure, make me do all your dirty scroll-work.    

<scrolls back>

Nope.  Just like a normal shark and damned tough.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

so for ability scores, how about Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 15, Wis 14+, Cha 14+?


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

> Combat: Nawidnehrs relish battle. They usually begin attacking with a roar. In shark form, this roar is a thunderous boom that fills a cone 5 feet wide at the creature's mouth, 50 feet long, and 35 feet wide at the far end. Creatures within the cone sudder a shockwave that renders them unconscious for 2d4 rounds ? unless they make successful saving throws vs. breath weapon.
> 
> When in humanoid form, the creature's roar takes the form of a haunting song. All listeners within 50 feet must make a saving throw vs. spell. Failure leaves the listener paralyzed with fright for 1d4+4 rounds.




Roar (Su): A nawidnehr in its natural form can loose a thunderous roar every 1d4 rounds. All creatures except nawidnehrs within a 50-foot cone must succeed on a DC X Fort (?) save or be stunned for 2d4 rounds. The save DC is (Constitution/Charisma)-based.

Haunting Song (Su): A nawidnehr in humanoid form can sing a haunting song. All creatures except nawidnehrs within 50 feet must succeed on a DC X Will save or become panicked (?) for 1d4+4 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

i think for the song, cowering or dazed is most similar to the old effect.

i'm going to say the roar is a Con-based Fort save.    speaking of which what do you think of the ability scores from my last post?


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

Oops, I must've been posting when you made that post and missed it!

I like 'em.  How about Wis 14, Cha 16?  They seem to be intimidating, manipulative, and tricksy, which would seem to imply a decent Cha.

Cowering...definitely.  I was looking for that one, but forgot what they called it.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

tricksey hobbitses!

posting in homebrews...


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

Keen scent appears to have pierced the change shape ability in half.    

Damage reduction should probably be 10.

We should either give 'em the amphibious quality or water dependent ability of the sahuagins.

Speaking of sahuagins, do we want to borrow this ability?

Speak with Sharks (Ex): Sahuagin can communicate telepathically with sharks up to 150 feet away. The communication is limited to fairly simple concepts such as “food,” “danger,” and “enemy.” Sahuagin can use the Handle Animal skill to befriend and train sharks.



> The nawidnehr (NAH-widd-near) is a great shark capable of assuming humanoid form. this powerful marine predator has an insatiable desire to kill. Also called the roaring shark, or sharkwere, the nawidnehr uses its shape-shifting abilities to pursue its prey onto land or insinuate itself into an unsuspecting party for a surprise attack.




Borrowing from other critters with change shape...

*When using its change shape ability, a nawidnehr gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. 



> All nawidnehrs speak the common tongue of humanity. Each individual sharkwere speaks several (1d4+1) other demihuman racial tongues as well.




Nawidnehrs speak Common.  Most know two or more other languages, generally Dwarven, Elven, or Halfling, depending on which races are prevalent in the coastal regions near their feeding grounds.



> Sometimes the creature decides not to roar when attacking in its natural form. Rather, it lunges at swimmers from below, imposing a -3 penalty to its opponents' surprise rolls.




Improved Init?  Hide and Move Silently?   Stealthy?



> When nawidnehrs use their shape-shifting ability to fool humanoid victims, they try to lure the victim into the water before attacking. They usually leap into the sea, dragging paralyzed victims with them. However, sharkweres will grappled with an opponent and enter the water with a victim in their grasps. Nawidnehrs have effective Strength scores of 18/00 or 19 for this purpose.




Revise improved grab like crocodile?

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a nawidnehr must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold on the oponent with its mouth and drags it into deep water, attempting to pin it to the bottom or can try to swallow the foe the following round.



> Habitat/Society: Nawidnehrs hunt victims every waking moment; they can't stand to leave any other creature in peace. Even the sahuagin fear these powerful predators. Sharkweres swim the oceans, seeking prey as any natural predator. However, these craft beats often pose as fishermen, marooned sailors, or friendly natives to attract victims. When encountered under the sea, there is a 40% chance that 2d4+1 large sharks (7-8 HD) accompany a nawidnehr.




Further support for Disguise bonus and speak with sharks.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Keen scent appears to have pierced the change shape ability in half.




Not sure what you mean?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We should either give 'em the amphibious quality or water dependent ability of the sahuagins.




I say amphibious.  I didn't see anything in there that suggested they only breathed water or had any difficulties on land when in humanoid form.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Speaking of sahuagins, do we want to borrow this ability?
> 
> Speak with Sharks (Ex): Sahuagin can communicate telepathically with sharks up to 150 feet away. The communication is limited to fairly simple concepts such as "food," "danger," and "enemy." Sahuagin can use the Handle Animal skill to befriend and train sharks.




Maybe, or we could give them something like what lycanthropes have.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Improved Init? Hide and Move Silently? Stealthy?




Why not all?


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Not sure what you mean?




When I looked at it earlier, the keen scent ability appeared between the two paragraphs of the change shape ability, thus cutting it in half.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I say amphibious.  I didn't see anything in there that suggested they only breathed water or had any difficulties on land when in humanoid form.




Cool.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Maybe, or we could give them something like what lycanthropes have.




Yeah, that'd work too.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Why not all?




I like your style.


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## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

good.  

updating!


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

Improved Crit (bite) and Blind-Fight for remaining feats?

Suggested Skill ranks:  Bluff 13, Disguise 15, Hide 13, Listen 7, Move Silently 5, Spot 7

Which would give it:  Bluff +16, Disguise +18 (+20 acting)*, Hide +9, Intimidate +5, Listen +9, Move Silently +9, Spot +9, Swim +14

DR cold iron or magic works for me.

CR:  dire shark is CR 9, and this guy is much deadlier.   I'd recommend CR 11-13.

LA:  It will probably exceed ECL 20, so "-" is fine.


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

Also, add "plus bleeding wounds" to the attack lines.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

much deadlier than a dire shark, yes.    question is, do we give it CR=HD, or do the unthinkable and go one higher?


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

It makes a strong case for 1 higher...bleeding wounds, improved grab with drowning/swallowing, decent damage reduction...


----------



## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

yeah... i'm going to be bold, we can call him unlucky 13.


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

We're getting there.  Do we want to model their size and weight after the dire shark?

"This monstrous fish can grow to a length of 25 feet and weigh more than 20,000 pounds."


----------



## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

well, the text does say 30 feet, so we can make them a little bigger than a dire shark.


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

So 30 feet and maybe 14 tons, rather than 10 tons like the dire shark?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

that works for me.  i'll work up some flavor text in a little while.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

it has been worked up. go see.


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

I'd work the pronunciation back in (I was way off on my guess), but otherwise it looks good!


----------



## BOZ (Oct 13, 2005)

cool!    no issues then?  9 down, 1 to go?


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

It looks that way.  Woo-hoo!


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

Since we've finished the Sea Devils, how about moving on to say, Chronomancer?  Those should be challenging.   Vortex spider for starters?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

*shudders* don't know that i want to deal with those things.


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

Adding The Abomination of Diirinka to the queue.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Nov 11, 2005)

I don't have a whole lot to add to your work, but I thought I would chime in and say how much it is appreciated.


RC


----------



## Shade (Nov 11, 2005)

Thanks, and feel free to chime in on any of the conversion threads, or throw in a request or two.


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## BOZ (Nov 27, 2005)

by request:

The Abomination of Diirinka

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
ORGANIZATION:	Solitary	
ACTVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET:	Life energy, minerals	
INTELLIGENCE:	Not Ratable
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT:	Chaotic Evil	

NO. APPEARING:	1		 
ARMOR CLASS:	-3		
MOVEMENT:	9, Br 9		
HIT DICE:	20 (140 hit points)	
THAC0: 	1		
NO. OF ATTACKS: 	6		
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	2d4+4/2d4+4/2d4+4/1d3/1d3/1d3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: 	Rend, energy drain, surprise		
SPECIAL DEFENSES:	Immunities, regeneration, spell turning	
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 	30%		
SIZE: 	H (12' tall)		
MORALE:	Fearless (19-20)	
XP VALUE:	22,000		

The Abomination is an otherworldly creature, loathsome to behold. It has an oblong body and stony flesh. The creature has three dead, white eyes spaced at equal intervals around its upper body.  The eyes have neither lids nor pupils. Three double-jointed arms sprout from the top of the body. Each arm bears a taloned hand. Three smaller arms jut from the mid-body, one below each eye; each ends in a drooling mouth.

	Swirling patterns of light and dark ripple along the Abomination's skin. A close look reveals these patterns to be the images of dwarven faces writhing in torment.

Combat: The Abomination can move through earth (dirt, sand, mud, stone, or metal) freely. When moving through earth, it can sense opponents through vibrations they create. It can detect a motionless opponent's heartbeat and breathing. The creature's favorite tactic is to rise up from below like a fish striking an insect. The maneuver imposes a -5 penalty to opponents' surprise rolls.

The Abomination attacks with its six limbs; it can attack six different targets, but usually concentrates on only one or two. The creature's mouths inflict only 1d3 points of damage, but once they strike a target they remain attached. An attached mouth automatically inflicts bite damage and drains one level of life energy per round (the same as a wight) until the Abomination releases its hold or the opponent breaks free. A mouth can be wrenched loose by making an attack vs. Armor Class 5 (to grab the offending appendage) and a Bond Bars roll with a +20% bonus (rolls of 96+ fail). The victim suffers 2d6 points of damage when the mouth tears loose. A slashing weapon can sever an arm with a called shot (-4 attack penalty and -1 initiative penalty) that inflicts at least 10 points of damage in a single blow. A blow directed at an arm has no effect if it inflicts less than 10 points of damage. Severing the arm leaves the mouth attached to the victim, still inflicting damage and draining energy.

A creature completely drained of life energy becomes a dry husk and is forever dead. If the Abomination drains all the life energy from a dwarf, the victim's tortured visage appears on the creature's body. The Abomination's claws inflict 2d4+4 points of damage. If two or three claws strike the same opponent, they rend and cause an additional 4d4+4 points of damage.

The Abomination regenerates 3 hit points each round. Severed limbs continue fighting (move 6) until 	the Abomination is slain.

The creature can be slain only in its home dimension. If reduced to less than 0 hit points elsewhere, the creature fades away and returns home, where it must rest for 2d6 hours before venturing forth again. To permanently slay the creature it must be reduced to -20 hit points on its home plane, and its remains	must be doused with holy water and powder from the amulet that controls it.

If the Abomination's Magic Resistance roll fails, spells are still turned as though the creature were wearing a ring of spell turning.

The Abomination is immune to normal heat, cold, electricity, acid, and poison. Magical forms of these attacks (and breath weapons) inflict half damage if the creature fails its saving throw and no damage if its saving throw succeeds.

Only weapons of +3 or better enchantment harm the Abomination. Edged weapons (types P and S) inflict damage equal only to their enchantment bonus plus the wielder's Strength bonus.

Habitat/Society: The derro power Diirinka created the Abomination aeons ago in answer to a plea from Brassbeard Moradinson, a dwarf whose desire to own the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords drove him to betrayal and murder. Brassbeard was given a talisman to control the creature, but according to Diirinka's plan) it failed, freeing the Abomination to run amok.

Ecology: The Abomination has a taste for minerals, which suggests that it might have once been a xorn corrupted by Diirinka's magic. Its favorite food is life force, particularly dwarven life force.


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2005)

So, for starters, is it an outsider, magical beast (extraplanar), or aberration (extraplanar)?

When I converted it earlier, I went with outsider as it reminded me of a xorn.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 27, 2005)

you converted it earlier?  why didn't ya say so?    linky?  and i think Outsider is the way to go, as the resemblance to xorn is likely more than superficial!

for comparison, some preliminary stats for the abomination of Diirinka:

*Abomination of Diirinka*
Large Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 20d8+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), burrow 20 ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 23+ (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 3 claws +X melee (2d4+X) and 3 bites +X melee (1d3+X)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: attach, energy drain, rend 2d4+X
Special Qualities: all-around vision, damage reduction X/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft, earth glide, fast healing 3+, immunity to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and poison, spell resistance X, spell turning, tremorsense 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: Hide, Move Silently
Feats: 

Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 
Treasure: None
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2005)

I bumped the thread again.


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## BOZ (Nov 27, 2005)

questions... if it is 12 feet tall, why Huge?

why so low with the AC?  straight conversion would put it at 23.

otherwise, i might use it just about as-is.


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2005)

Judgement call. 

Dunno.

Cool.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 27, 2005)

though Huge is, of course more terrifying, if he was only twice as tall as a human before i would keep him there now.  any insight to change my point of view?


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2005)

I think I know now why I went with Huge...

1.)  SIZE: *H* (12' tall) 

I took that H literally.    

2.)  Its six limbs can attack six different targets...that sounded big to me.    

3.)  Since I modeled him off the xorns, they were Small, Medium, and Large, and he's four feet taller than the elder xorn (Large), I decided to take him to the next size.

I'm fine with shrinking him down to Large, if you'd prefer.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 27, 2005)

ah yeah, there's the problem - the conversion book even tells you not to go by the old size categories.    yeah, i'm sticking with large, as the other things don't bother me.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 27, 2005)

OK, i am keeping most other things the same.  i'm not changing the ability scores, even though i am changing the size.  the speed rating struck me as a little slower than usual, so i am keeping them at 20 for both modes.  the base damages seem a bit higher than original to me, so i am bringing them back down.  

i was thinking that it needs an Attach attack or something like it, for the bite attacks and energy drain.
not sure - should it have fast healing or regeneration?


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, i am keeping most other things the same.  i'm not changing the ability scores, even though i am changing the size.  the speed rating struck me as a little slower than usual, so i am keeping them at 20 for both modes.  the base damages seem a bit higher than original to me, so i am bringing them back down.
> 
> i was thinking that it needs an Attach attack or something like it, for the bite attacks and energy drain.
> not sure - should it have fast healing or regeneration?




Yeah, it sounds like it maybe outta have attach or something similar.   I still prefer regeneration to fast healing for this fella.

Also, I failed to account for the following:



> A creature completely drained of life energy becomes a dry husk and is forever dead. If the Abomination drains all the life energy from a dwarf, the victim's tortured visage appears on the creature's body.




Do we want to do the usual?..."Feeding destroys the victim’s body and prevents any form of raising or resurrection that requires part of the corpse. There is a 50% chance that a wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell can restore a devoured victim to life. Check once for each destroyed creature. If the check fails, the creature cannot be brought back to life by mortal magic."


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## BOZ (Nov 28, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, it sounds like it maybe outta have attach or something similar.   I still prefer regeneration to fast healing for this fella.




"The Abomination regenerates 3 hit points each round. Severed limbs continue fighting (move 6) until 	the Abomination is slain."

pre-3E, you see "regeneration" used in situations that amount to what we now call fast healing, whereas creatures that had "troll-like regeneration" kept with regeneration.  in this case, i don't care.  

for attach, maybe something like what we gave our version of the anguillian:

Attach (Ex): If an anguiliian hits with its bite attack, it uses its powerful jaws to latch onto the opponent's body. An attached anguiliian loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and thus has an AC of 14. 

An attached anguiliian can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached anguiliian through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the creature. 

An attached anguiliian can make two rake attacks and deals automatic bite damage each round. Additionally, it gains a +2 bonus on all attack rolls with its other natural attacks. 




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Do we want to do the usual?..."Feeding destroys the victim’s body and prevents any form of raising or resurrection that requires part of the corpse. There is a 50% chance that a wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell can restore a devoured victim to life. Check once for each destroyed creature. If the check fails, the creature cannot be brought back to life by mortal magic."




might as well.  is the part about dwarves something for flavor text or does it need to be in an ability?


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> "The Abomination regenerates 3 hit points each round. Severed limbs continue fighting (move 6) until 	the Abomination is slain."
> 
> pre-3E, you see "regeneration" used in situations that amount to what we now call fast healing, whereas creatures that had "troll-like regeneration" kept with regeneration.  in this case, i don't care.




It reminds me more of the trolls' regeneration (limbs keep moving, etc).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> for attach, maybe something like what we gave our version of the anguillian:
> 
> Attach (Ex): If an anguiliian hits with its bite attack, it uses its powerful jaws to latch onto the opponent's body. An attached anguiliian loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and thus has an AC of 14.
> 
> ...




Yeah, me likee.     



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> might as well.  is the part about dwarves something for flavor text or does it need to be in an ability?




Well, I could see going three different ways on this:

1.)  Any creature killed can be utterly destroyed and its face appears on AoD.
2.)  Only a dwarf can be utterly destroyed, and thus only dwarven faces appear on AoD.
3.)  Any creature killed can be utterly destroyed, but only only dwarven faces appear on AoD.

Personally, I kinda like #2, since it was created by a derro god.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 28, 2005)

i like #3, actually.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2005)

That'll work.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

"INTELLIGENCE:	Not Ratable"

should we make anything out of that?

"When moving through earth, it can sense opponents through vibrations they create. It can detect a motionless opponent's heartbeat and breathing."

would tremorsense cover all of that?

"Severed limbs continue fighting (move 6) until 	the Abomination is slain."

"The creature can be slain only in its home dimension. If reduced to less than 0 hit points elsewhere, the creature fades away and returns home, where it must rest for 2d6 hours before venturing forth again. To permanently slay the creature it must be reduced to -20 hit points on its home plane, and its remains	must be doused with holy water and powder from the amulet that controls it."

"If the Abomination's Magic Resistance roll fails, spells are still turned as though the creature were wearing a ring of spell turning."


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 30, 2005)

I'm not sure Not Ratable intelligence works. After all, they act fairly intelligently. You might want to give them normal, even high, Intelligence, and then give them some sort of inscrutable mind SQ - Wis damage when detect thoughts used, that sort of thing.

And the heartbeat/breathing thing seems much closer to blindsight than tremorsense.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> "INTELLIGENCE:	Not Ratable"
> 
> should we make anything out of that?




I agree with Demiurge.   I think they were trying to be creative and state that its mind is beyond mortal means of classification.  That kind of wackiness worked in 2E...but not now.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "When moving through earth, it can sense opponents through vibrations they create. It can detect a motionless opponent's heartbeat and breathing."
> 
> would tremorsense cover all of that?




Yes, and no.  Vibrations...definitely.   I'd say give it both tremorsense and blindsense.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "Severed limbs continue fighting (move 6) until 	the Abomination is slain."




Didn't trolls used to do the same thing, but now do not?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "The creature can be slain only in its home dimension. If reduced to less than 0 hit points elsewhere, the creature fades away and returns home, where it must rest for 2d6 hours before venturing forth again. To permanently slay the creature it must be reduced to -20 hit points on its home plane, and its remains	must be doused with holy water and powder from the amulet that controls it."




We just did this with one of the angels....here we go...

Rejuvenation (Su): Lights may only be permanently destroyed on their home plane. If a light is reduced to -10 or fewer hit points on another plane, it dissipates and reforms on its home plane one month later.

Modifying that:

Rejuvenation (Su): The Abomination may only be permanently destroyed on its home plane. If it is reduced to -10 or fewer hit points on another plane, it dissipates and reforms on its home plane 2d6 hours later.  Reducing the Abomination's hit points to -10 or lower on its home plane incapacitates it but doesn’t destroy it.  However, dousing its remains with holy water and powder from the amulet that controls it will kill it.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "If the Abomination's Magic Resistance roll fails, spells are still turned as though the creature were wearing a ring of spell turning."




We can borrow this from the nerra:

Reflective Spell Resistance (Sp): A nerra has a special type of spell resistance that causes any targeted spell it successfully resists to bounce off and reflect back at the caster. The caster becomes either the spell's target or the point of origin for the spell's effect, as appropriate.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

didn't we just recently have a creature that had a mind that couldn't be read, but didn't harm a reader to try?  was that the dhour?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Didn't trolls used to do the same thing, but now do not?




apparently.  so should we kill the "still attack after severed"?  and if so, should we kill the "still deals bite damage and energy drain if attached and severed"?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We can borrow this from the nerra:
> 
> Reflective Spell Resistance (Sp): A nerra has a special type of spell resistance that causes any targeted spell it successfully resists to bounce off and reflect back at the caster. The caster becomes either the spell's target or the point of origin for the spell's effect, as appropriate.




weren't the nerra seriously involved in mirrors though?  and does that affect the whole "reflective" thing or does that matter?


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> didn't we just recently have a creature that had a mind that couldn't be read, but didn't harm a reader to try?  was that the dhour?




Yes, and dhour is correct.  We got the base ability from the phiuhl.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> apparently.  so should we kill the "still attack after severed"?  and if so, should we kill the "still deals bite damage and energy drain if attached and severed"?




I'd ditch all of it.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> weren't the nerra seriously involved in mirrors though?  and does that affect the whole "reflective" thing or does that matter?




Yes they are, but there are other creatures with spell turning (monster of legend, for example).  I liked the nerra writeup because it actually mentioned spell resistance.

Here's the monster of legend version:

Reflective Hide (Su): The creature has a silvery sheen to its skin and is permanently protected by a spell turning effect.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

how about an amalgam of the two...

Spell Turning (Su): The Abomination is permanently protected by a spell turning effect (caster level Xth). Any targeted spell that the Abomination successfully resists is turned back at the caster.  The caster becomes either the spell's target or the point of origin for the spell's effect, as appropriate.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

That works for me.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

about time i posted this fellow.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Spell resistance 27?

1,800 pounds sounds good.

Languages:  Abyssal, Common, Dwarven, Terran, Undercommon.  I can actually see it without Common.

How about regrowing severed limbs in 2d6 hours like its rejuvenation period?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

good deal.  how are the mechanics for Attach? i think you wrote everything else, or it was taken directly from another creature with a similar ability.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

I think the attach writeup is fine.  It's the stuff that Shade wrote that worries me...


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

heh...  updating.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Add "plus attach and energy drain" to bite on attack lines.

Regeneration 6?

Do we know the name of the Pocket Plane?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

stirges have attach in the attack line, but dire weasels don't.  hmm...

no, i would have to look through the module to find the name of the Plane.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Anguillans don't either.  Hmm..it looks like attach is only listed on the attack line if the creature deals no other damage.   Energy drain is usually there, though.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

As an aside, you can remove the Elevated Ghoul from Return to White Plume Mountain from the list...they appear in the last Dungeon as "true ghouls".


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

there you go.

i guess i will have to look through the module to find the name of the demiplane, or at least what to call it if there is no specific name.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 1, 2005)

been skimming it so far... it seems that the talisman meant to control the Abomination was meant to fail (25% of the time, perhaps?), allowing the beast to rampage uncontrollably sometimes while someone was trying to manipulate it.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

Interesting.  We'll probably want to include the talisman in the writeup.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2005)

yep.  scanned through the module up til about page 50 yesterday looking for info on Abomminy...  will continue that over the weekend as time permits (not likely to do that today).


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

A-bomb of D-rink has many layers, not unlike an onion...or an ogre.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 5, 2005)

well, didn't see a name for the dimension...


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Interesting.  We'll probably want to include the talisman in the writeup.




finally got around to scanning this!

Amulet of the Abomination: The derro power Diirinka crafted this jewel for Brassbeard Moradinson, the dwarf who murdered his uncle Irontooth to get the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords (see Chapter 1). The amulet is about the size of a walnut and consists of a single piece of clear crystal cut into the likeness of a dwarf's head; however, the piece has no curves, so only angles and facets define the head's contours. The crystalline material looks and feels something like diamond. It is tougher, but less bright.

The amulet has no pin or chain; it has to be carried in a pouch or tucked into the user's clothing.

	By clutching the amulet and concentrating, the user can summon the Abomination of Diirinka from its extraplanar home to any place the user can see - distance is not a factor. The Abomination usually appears in 1 round, but if the creature has previously been slain outside its home, it will not appear until it has recovered (see creature description on page 189).

Once the Abomination appears, the wielder can command the Abomination to perform any action the user desires, provided that action is within the creature's capabilities (which include return to its home dimension). Control lasts 1 turn and can be exercised at any range so long as the Abomination stays within sight. If the creature passes out of the viewer's sight it tends to follow its last instruction to the best of its ability. Once the control's duration runs out, however, the creature becomes uncontrolled and usually charges off in search of dwarven prey. An uncontrolled Abomination generally remains on the plane where it has been summoned until it slays and consumes several dwarves (usually 2d4) or for 1d4 months, whichever takes less time, then returns to its home dimension.

The Abomination's Magic Resistance does not apply to attempts to control it via the amulet, but each time someone uses the amulet to control the Abomination its power fades somewhat and the creature gains a saving throw to resist the effect. The saving throw starts at 21 the first time the amulet is used, and falls by 1 with every subsequent use; there is never a saving throw, vs. the summoning effect, but each summoning counts as a use.

Roll the saving throw each time the amulet wielder uses the control power, not each time the wielder issues the Abomination a command. For example, Tairdo invokes the command power and orders the Abomination to attack the party, Tairdo can command the creature for 1 turn (provided it failed its saving throw), but if Tairdo keeps the creature busy for 30 minutes, he must use the command power three times. The creature never gains any bonus to the saving throw. Magical effects that block mental control, such as protection from evil, block the amulet wielder's control, but usually also hedge out the Abomination.

If the amulet lies unused for a century, a its power regenerates and the creature's base saving throw vs. the command effect rises to 21 again.

The amulet cannot be destroyed except by a blow from a weapon of +3 or better enchantment, or a wish. 
XP Value: Nil * GP Value: 10,000


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Amulet of the Abomination: The derro power Diirinka crafted this jewel for Brassbeard Moradinson, the dwarf who murdered his uncle Irontooth to get the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords (see Chapter 1). The amulet is about the size of a walnut and consists of a single piece of clear crystal cut into the likeness of a dwarf's head; however, the piece has no curves, so only angles and facets define the head's contours. The crystalline material looks and feels something like diamond. It is tougher, but less bright.




We can probably retain all of this.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The amulet has no pin or chain; it has to be carried in a pouch or tucked into the user's clothing.




And this.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> By clutching the amulet and concentrating, the user can summon the Abomination of Diirinka from its extraplanar home to any place the user can see - distance is not a factor. The Abomination usually appears in 1 round, but if the creature has previously been slain outside its home, it will not appear until it has recovered (see creature description on page 189).




As a full-round (?) action, the bearer of the amulet can summon the Abomination.  However, if the creature has recently been slain outside its home plane, it will not appear until it has recovered (see rejuvenation, above).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Once the Abomination appears, the wielder can command the Abomination to perform any action the user desires, provided that action is within the creature's capabilities (which include return to its home dimension). Control lasts 1 turn and can be exercised at any range so long as the Abomination stays within sight. If the creature passes out of the viewer's sight it tends to follow its last instruction to the best of its ability. Once the control's duration runs out, however, the creature becomes uncontrolled and usually charges off in search of dwarven prey. An uncontrolled Abomination generally remains on the plane where it has been summoned until it slays and consumes several dwarves (usually 2d4) or for 1d4 months, whichever takes less time, then returns to its home dimension.




Control lasts 10 minutes, or stick with the usual hour for summoned creatures?   Keep the rest?




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The Abomination's Magic Resistance does not apply to attempts to control it via the amulet, but each time someone uses the amulet to control the Abomination its power fades somewhat and the creature gains a saving throw to resist the effect. The saving throw starts at 21 the first time the amulet is used, and falls by 1 with every subsequent use; there is never a saving throw, vs. the summoning effect, but each summoning counts as a use.




Hmmm... 

Once summoned, the Abomination can resist control with a successful DC X Will save.  The DC decreases by 1 for each successive attempt.  It may only save once per control period (10 minutes).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Roll the saving throw each time the amulet wielder uses the control power, not each time the wielder issues the Abomination a command. For example, Tairdo invokes the command power and orders the Abomination to attack the party, Tairdo can command the creature for 1 turn (provided it failed its saving throw), but if Tairdo keeps the creature busy for 30 minutes, he must use the command power three times. The creature never gains any bonus to the saving throw. Magical effects that block mental control, such as protection from evil, block the amulet wielder's control, but usually also hedge out the Abomination.




Do we want to use that last sentence?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> If the amulet lies unused for a century, a its power regenerates and the creature's base saving throw vs. the command effect rises to 21 again.




After a century of disuse, the amulet returns to full power, and the save DC for the effect resets to X.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The amulet cannot be destroyed except by a blow from a weapon of +3 or better enchantment, or a wish.
> XP Value: Nil * GP Value: 10,000




This is WAY too easy.  How about an epic good-aligned weapon forged by dwarves and a wish or miracle cast by a dwarven spellcaster?


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## Mortis (Dec 9, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> This is WAY too easy.  How about an epic good-aligned weapon forged by dwarves *and* a wish or miracle cast by a dwarven spellcaster?



Should that be 'and' or 'or'?

If it's 'and' it may be too HARD.   

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

That would be an "or".


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> As a full-round (?) action, the bearer of the amulet can summon the Abomination.  However, if the creature has recently been slain outside its home plane, it will not appear until it has recovered (see rejuvenation, above).




if this works as a full-round action, does that mean the Abom appears at the end of the summoner's turn and can act immediately?  if so, i think maybe it's better as a standard action, and the Abom appears the following round and can act on the summoner's turn.  just clarify how that works for me.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Control lasts 10 minutes, or stick with the usual hour for summoned creatures?   Keep the rest?




we are dealing with an artifact, so i call this a special case.  10 minutes is generous (but hardly out of the question).  i know in AD&D 1 turn = 10 rounds, but i forget whether 2E rounds were 1 minute or not.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Once summoned, the Abomination can resist control with a successful DC X Will save.  The DC decreases by 1 for each successive attempt.  It may only save once per control period (10 minutes).




good start - we can work on that. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Do we want to use that last sentence?




are there any 3.5 effects that hedge something out?  does protection from evil or magic circle do anything like that?  consecrate, anything?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> After a century of disuse, the amulet returns to full power, and the save DC for the effect resets to X.




you got it.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> This is WAY too easy.  How about an epic good-aligned weapon forged by dwarves and a wish or miracle cast by a dwarven spellcaster?




what you said below, and yes.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if this works as a full-round action, does that mean the Abom appears at the end of the summoner's turn and can act immediately?  if so, i think maybe it's better as a standard action, and the Abom appears the following round and can act on the summoner's turn.  just clarify how that works for me.




Actually, I should have said "one round" like the summon monster spells.  This would require it to wait until the next round to complete the summoning.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> we are dealing with an artifact, so i call this a special case.  10 minutes is generous (but hardly out of the question).  i know in AD&D 1 turn = 10 rounds, but i forget whether 2E rounds were 1 minute or not.




Yep, still 10 minutes.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> are there any 3.5 effects that hedge something out?  does protection from evil or magic circle do anything like that?  consecrate, anything?




Many...

protection from chaos/evil/good/law
magic circle against ...
antipathy
antilife shell
antiplant shell


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

then we shall keep the hedge-trimming aspect.


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

The bearer of the amulet can summon the Abomination, which arrives one round later.  If the Abomination has recently been slain outside its home plane, it will not appear until it has recovered (see rejuvenation, above).  When the Abomination appears, it appears in any location the bearer can see, regardless of the distance, as chosen by the bearer.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

We'll need to list what sort of action the actual act of summoning involves.  It seems to imply that the the bearer can call out to A-bomb, and then move on and do other things until it arrives.


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

actually, it seems to imply that the amulet must be held and concentrated upon.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

The original text does, but not the blurb you posted above (which is what I was referring to).


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

right.  i will fix that then.  

i think the DC should be 35.  that way, it will fail the first attempt to control it, and require a 20 on the second attempt, but after that it gets progressively easier (as intended!)


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Good call!


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

Amulet of the Abomination (major artifact)
The derro power Diirinka crafted this jewel for Brassbeard Moradinson, the dwarf who murdered his uncle Irontooth to get the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords. The amulet is about the size of a walnut and consists of a single piece of clear crystal cut into the likeness of a dwarf's head; however, the piece has no curves, so only angles and facets define the head's contours. The crystalline material looks and feels something like diamond. It is tougher, but less bright. The amulet has no pin or chain; it has to be carried in a pouch or tucked into the user's clothing.

By holding the amulet and concentrating on it, the bearer can summon the Abomination of Diirinka, which arrives one round later.  If the Abomination has recently been slain outside its home plane, it will not appear until it has recovered (see rejuvenation, above).  The summoning attempt will fail if the Abomination is on a plane other than its home plane.  When the Abomination appears, it appears in any location the bearer can see, regardless of the distance, as chosen by the bearer.

Once the Abomination appears, it must succeed on a DC 35 Will save or be under control of the amulet's wielder for 10 minutes.  While under the wielder's control, the Abomination performs any action the wielder desires, including returning to its home dimension, so long as the action is within the Abomination's capabilities.  The wielder can issue commands only when the Abomination is within sight; if the Abomination is not within the wielder's sight it will follow its last instruction to the best of its ability.

If the Abomination succeeds on its saving throw or if the control's duration runs out, the Abomination will act of its own accord.  If the duration runs out and the Abomination is in sight, the wielder may attempt to regain control for another 10 minutes, forcing the Abomination to make another Will save.

Each time the amulet is used to summon or gain control of the Abomination, the DC for the Will save decreases by 1.  If the amulet is not used for 100 years, the save DC increases to its maximum of 35.

The Abomination counts as a summoned creature for the purposes of spells such as protection from evil and magic circle against evil.  Any effect that blocks mind control or mind-affecting effects also blocks the amulet wielder's control over the Abomination.

The Amulet of the Abomination can be destroyed only by an epic good-aligned weapon forged by dwarves, or a wish or miracle spell cast by a dwarven spellcaster.


Flavor text for the Abommy:
When the Abomination is summoned but is not under someone's control, it will charge off in search of dwarven prey.  It remains on the plane it has been summoned to until it has slain and consumed several dwarves, returning home when it has been satiated.  After a few months of hunting, if it has not been successful, it will return home hungry.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

It looks good!


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

no problems?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

Nope.  Did you want to account for it being summoned before in the past century by previous owners of the amulet (such as a random 1d10 lowering of the DC)?


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

nah, the DM can figure that out.  it could be dormant for centuries, if not millennia, at a time.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

I have no problem with that.


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

overdue for an update, aren't we?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

It looks like we need a caster level for spell turning.   Go with 20?


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

might as well.    should we just go with the planar name on the environment line?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

I'd prefer just the planar name.


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

updating once more then...   have a good, long look at it when you get the chance.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2005)

I think she's ready for primetime.


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## BOZ (Dec 9, 2005)

woohoo!


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## BOZ (Jun 7, 2006)

ohhhh.......   WE'RE BACK!  

OK, looks like the whole of the rockseer conversion was wiped out with the board crash.  that shouldn't be too much of a problem as, from what i recall, we were very nearly done.  here are the original stats.  anyone remember what was left to work on?  if not, it shouldn't take too long to figure it out.  


Night Below:

Elf, Rockseer

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any (night)
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High to Supra-genius (14-20)
TREASURE: Individual: M + 1 jewelry piece		In Lair: U, W
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 5-20 (5d4) or 100 (in lair)
ARMOR CLASS: 4 (10)
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 1+1 and up
THAC0: 19 or better
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: +1 on attack rolls with long sword
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Meld into stone, immune to petrification, 90% resistance to sleep, charm, hold, and web, communal powers
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50% against Elemental Earth magic
SIZE: M (7')
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: Variable (420+)

Rockseer elves are the rarest of all elvenkind. They are far taller than most of their kin, with a few reaching almost to eight feet in height. An average weight for a Rockseer is between 120 and 140 pounds, with little gender difference. Rockseers are very pale-skinned, and they have no body hair. Head hair is extraordinarily fine, always worn long, with the appearance and texture of exquisitely fine silk. The hair is silver, and eye color is invariant: a pale, almost ice-blue. They are androgenous in appearance, making it difficult for outsiders to tell males and females apart.

Rockseers have been separated from the rest of elvenkind since mythic times. Their own history tells that they were cowards at the great battle of Corellon Larethian and Lolth, fleeing the combat and taking refuge far below ground. They have no knowledge of surface elves. They know of the Drow and hate them, avoiding them whenever possible. They are extremely seclusive and shun the company of all other races, including the Svirfheblin. The only exception to this are pech, with whom Rockseers sometimes form friendships.

Rockseers dress very plainly in cloaks and garments which blend in with their surroundings, brown and gray being the favored colors. These garments are woven from tough fungal fibers, but such is their craftsmanship that they appear almost to be normal clothing. Treatment with plant extracts renders them waterproof and relatively fire resistant. In contrast with this plain garb, they wear rich jewelry, usually of gold and silver and always set with gems.

Combat: Rockseers eschew fighting whenever possible. They are too few in number to risk pointless deaths. Their underground special skills are so great that they can generally escape combats when they wish to; they are rarely even seen by potential aggressors. If forced to fight, Rockseers are unflinching. They always fight to the death to defend others of their own kind. They rarely possess bows (suitable bowstrings are difficult to come by in the Underdark) and prize such items, but they employ swords, spears, and stone quarterstaves which are hard as any steel.

The special attacks and defenses of these elves are formidable. They gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with long swords (but not with bows). They are 90% resistant to sleep, charm, hold, and web spells and wholly immune to petrification. They have 50% magic resistance against all Elemental Earth spells but suffer a -1 penalty on saving throws against Elemental Air spells.

Rockseers are armed with long swords (50%), long sword and dagger (25%), or long sword and short sword (25%). Weapon possession is also variable depending on class type. Missile weapons, save for the rarely employed staff-sling or bow, are not favored by Rockseers. If they have enough distance to use missile attacks, they have enough distance to use spells or simply to meld into stone and escape.

Every Rockseer has the ability to meld into stone from childhood. This talent is usable thrice per day until the Rockseer reaches maturity (at the age of 60 to 70 years), after which time it is usable at will. Rockseers who are of 3rd or higher level can stone walk (walking through stone as if through air) for a total distance of 100 yards once per day; this distance increases by 100 yards for each additional level gained. A Rockseer of 9th level can take one additional human-sized creature with him or her on such a stone walk; this number increases at the rate of one passenger per level beyond 9th (thus at 10th level the Rockseer could take two companions). Rockseers intuitively sense distances between passages and caverns separated by walls, so that they always know whether a stone walk can take them to a safe place or whether they might be trapped in solid stone at the end of the walk. Rockseers of 5th and higher levels can stone shape once per day, and those of 9th or higher level can employ stone tell once per day.

Rockseers also have communal powers. A group of three or more Rockseers with a total of 10 or more experience levels can create a wall of stone at will, and a group of five or more with a total of 20 or more experience levels can conjure a huge earth elemental once per day (that is, any Rockseer who participates in such a conjuration cannot do so again until the next day). This elemental has 20 HD and at least 5 hp per die, and it cannot be turned back against its summoners. Spell effects are considered to be at the aggregate experience level of the Rockseer group for the purposes of dispelling the elemental.

Rockseers can be warriors, wizards, thieves, warrior-thieves, or warrior-wizards. There is no priest class (the elves believe themselves to be shunned by the elven Powers for their cowardice, and tales of the Powers are all but forgotten by these people). As warriors, they can attain 11th experience level maximum. As thieves, they can attain 13th level maximum. As wizards, Rockseers can attain 18th level maximum.

Rockseer wizards (single-classed only) gain special bonus spells as they gain experience levels. At 5th level, they can memorize Melf's acid arrow as an additional spell. At 9th level, Maximilian's stony grasp* is the bonus spell. At 15th level, a Rockseer wizard gains a bonus acid storm * spell (*these latter two spells are found in the Tome of Magic). Rockseer wizards also add 1% per level to their magic resistance against Elemental Earth spells, and if they cast such spells at others not of their own kind, the target incurs a saving throw penalty of -1 per five levels of the Rockseer (round fractions above one-half upwards). Rockseer wizards can cast all priest Elemental Earth spells as if wizard spells of the same level.

Rockseer wizards of 11th and higher level know the secrets of creating magical "familiars" (more correctly, golem-like constructs) called stone dragonets. These incredibly intricate slender stone statuettes are 12" long plus an additional 9" to 12" of tail; they move as if perfectly articulated, and the finest of them have gems of extraordinary kind as eyes. A stone dragonet has AC -2, HD 2, hp 16, and attacks three times per round for 1d3/1d3/1d4 (claw/claw/bite). It has 25% general magic resistance, 75% resistance to Elemental Earth spells, and complete immunity to petrification (obviously), illusions, gaseous attacks, poison, paralyzation, and spells which affect corporeal bodies generally. A wizard with such a familiar gains a -2 bonus to his or her own Armor Class and cannot be surprised. If the gem-eyes of the statuette are each of value not less than 5,000 gp, the eyes of the dragonet can cast a brilliant eyebite glare once per day if the correct spells are cast during the creation of the familiar.

Rockseer elves have 240' infravision. They do not, as a rule, possess many magic items. Nonwizards have but a 5% chance per level of owning a magical weapon. Wizards have a 10% chance per level of owning a magic item of appropriate kind, but these are often powerful indeed. The greatest wizards are reputed to possess special wands of steam and vapor which create acrid clouds of burning, blinding acid (6d6 points of damage the first round, 4d6 the second, and 2d6 the third and final).

On account of their longevity (they have a natural life-span of over 1,400 years), groups of Rockseers are almost always led by an experienced veteran, a warrior or warrior-wizard of at least 5th (or 4th/4th) level. A sizeable group (30 or more) will have at least one warrior of 7th to 10th level (6+1d4) and also a wizard of 7th to 12th level (6+1d6). In the central lair of a Rockseer clan, where up to a hundred may be gathered together, the clan chieftain is usually a wizard of surpassing skill (level 12+1d6) and has 1d3+2 advisors/bodyguards who are either (50%) warriors of 10th to 11th level or wizards of 11th to 14th level (but not of higher level than the chieftain).

Rockseer elves have a -1 penalty to their initial Strength, Constitution, and Charisma scores, but they gain +1 bonuses to Wisdom, Intelligence, and Dexterity.

Habitat/Society: Rockseers believe that all they have is themselves and the riches of the earth. They are powerfully cohesive socially. Chieftains are generally elected by a conclave of the most powerful warriors and wizards on the death of the previous leader. A wise Rockseer leader does not give orders without consulting his or her advisors. Rockseers do not tolerate tyrannical leadership, nor do they suffer fools.

The lairs of Rockseers are supremely well disguised and warded. Multiple spells are always cunningly placed to prevent other creatures even suspecting the existence of such a network of caverns and passages, let alone entering them. Spies (usually thieves melding into stone) are always placed to watch out over areas close to the entry points of caverns. Some Rockseers live in caverns accessible only by stone walking or similar magic, where hundreds of feet of solid rock separate them from the outside world, with only small fissures to provide air.

Rockseers are highly unusual among elves in that they have little curiosity. Few among them have any desire to learn the ways of other folk. This is largely the legacy of a long historical sense of shame at their mythic history; they consider themselves tainted and instinctively avoid those who they think would condemn them. Once awakened, however, their curiosity can lead them to act in uncharacteristic ways, as those who stumble upon them will soon discover.

Rockseers are gem cutters and craftsmen almost without equal; even gnomes and dwarves would hesitate to claim they could better Rockseer work. They can almost scent gemlodes deep in the Underdark and think nothing of spending ten years Grafting and sculpting a single gem. The truly great Rockseer wizard-artisans are able to sculpt a gem with magic into forms of almost painfully exquisite beauty, generating fractal patterns of brilliant color and radiance within the heart of the gem as it grows. A handful of such perfectly crafted gems can be used to create a helm of brilliance (divide all gem numbers required by five, and each gem can fulfil its function five times before becoming nonmagical).

Rockseers are strange, alien, and fey people even by the standards of elvenkind. They are a serious people with little of the light-hearted, frolicking, bantering ways of most elves. They speak their own dialect of Elvish, which high or gray elves can understand 50% of the time and Drow 30% of the time. They also know fragments of Svirfneblin, and most can speak pech. A few have a smattering of underdark-dwarven and can communicate with Derro or Duergar (not that they would wish to do so, but it is useful for intelligence-gathering). Above all, they are totally isolated. They know nothing of what has transpired above ground for thousands of years. Their attitudes to surface elves are very ambivalent. All Rockseers feel a deep sense of shame for the deeds of their far-distant ancestors and assume that any surface elf they meet would automatically despise them; it will be very difficult for a visitor to convince them otherwise. On the other hand, they long to know what their brethren lost for so many lifetimes do, how they live, what they believe in, what they consider beautiful.

Ecology: Rockseers hardly interact with anyone else in the Underdark. They eat fungi, moss, lichens, and cave creatures such as lizards and eels. They avoid violence and the endless struggle between different factions in the Underdark and keep to themselves. They are calm, enigmatic, and extraordinarily hard for outsiders to understand.



Monstrous Compendium Annual Three:

Elf, Rockseer

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any (night)
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High to Supra-genius (14-20)
TREASURE: M + 1 jewelry (U, W)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 5-20 (100 in lair)
ARMOR CLASS: 4 (10)
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 1+1 and up
THAC0: 19 or better
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: +1 with long sword
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Meld into stone, immune to petrification, 90% resistance to sleep, charm, hold, and web, communal powers
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50% vs. Earth magic
SIZE: M (7')
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: Variable (420+)

Rockseer elves are the rarest of all elvenkind. They are far taller than most of their kin, with a few reaching almost eight feet in height. An average weight for a Rockseer is between 120 and 140 pounds, with little gender difference. Rockseers are very pale-skinned, and they have no body hair. Head hair is extraordinarily fine, always worn long, with the appearance and texture of exquisitely fine silk. The hair is silver, and eye color is invariant: a pale, almost ice-blue. They are androgenous in appearance, making it difficult for outsiders to tell males and females apart.

Rockseers have been separated from the rest of elvenkind since mythic times. Their own history tells that they were cowards at the great battle of Corellon Larethian and Lolth, fleeing the combat and taking refuge far below ground. They have no knowledge of surface elves. They know of the drow and hate them, avoiding them whenever possible. They are extremely seclusive and shun the company of all other races, including the svirfneblin. The only exception to this are pech, with whom Rockseers sometimes form friendships.

Rockseers dress very plainly in cloaks and garments which blend in with their surroundings, brown and gray being the favored colors. These garments are woven from tough fungal fibers, but such is their craftsmanship that they appear almost to be normal clothing. Treatment with plant extracts renders them waterproof and relatively fire resistant. In contrast with this plain garb, they wear rich jewelry, usually of gold and silver and always set with gems.

Combat: Rockseers eschew fighting whenever possible. They are too few in number to risk pointless deaths. Their underground special skills are so great that they can generally escape combats when they wish to; they are rarely even seen by potential aggressors. If forced to fight, Rockseers are unflinching. They always fight to the death to defend others of their own kind. They rarely possess bows (suitable bowstrings are difficult to come by in the Underdark) and prize such items, but they employ swords, spears, and stone quarterstaves which are hard as any steel.

The special attacks and defenses of these elves are formidable. They gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with long swords (but not with bows). They are 90% resistant to sleep, charm, hold, and web spells and wholly immune to petrification. They have 50% magic resistance against all Elemental Earth spells but suffer a -1 penalty on saving throws against Elemental Air spells.

Rockseers are armed with long swords (50%), long sword and dagger (25%), or long sword and short sword (25%). Weapon possession is also variable depending on class type. Missile weapons, save for the rarely employed staff-sling or bow, are not favored by Rockseers. If they have enough distance to use missile attacks, they have enough distance to use spells or simply to meld into stone and escape.

Every Rockseer has the ability to meld into stone from childhood. This talent is usable thrice per day until the Rockseer reaches maturity (at the age of 60 to 70 years), after which time it is usable at will. Rockseers who are of 3rd or higher level can stone walk (walking through stone as if through air) for a total distance of 100 yards once per day; this distance increases by 100 yards for each additional level gained. A Rockseer of 9th level can take one additional human-sized creature with him or her on such a stone walk; this number increases at the rate of one passenger per level beyond 9th (thus at 10th level the Rockseer could take two companions). Rockseers intuitively sense distances between passages and caverns separated by walls, so that they always know whether a stone walk can take them to a safe place or whether they might be trapped in solid stone at the end of the walk. Rockseers of 5th and higher levels can stone shape once per day, and those of 9th or higher level can employ stone tell once per day.

Rockseers also have communal powers. A group of three or more Rockseers with a total of 10 or more experience levels can create a wall of stone at will, and a group of five or more with a total of 20 or more experience levels can conjure a huge earth elemental once per day (that is, any Rockseer who participates in such a conjuration cannot do so again until the next day). This elemental has 20 HD and at least 5 hp per die, and it cannot be turned back against its summoners. Spell effects are considered to be at the aggregate experience level of the Rockseer group for the purposes of dispelling the elemental.

Rockseers can be warriors, wizards, thieves, warrior-thieves, or warrior-wizards. There is no priest class (the elves believe themselves to be shunned by the elven Powers for their cowardice, and tales of the Powers are all but forgotten by these people). As warriors, they can attain 11th experience level maximum. As thieves, they can attain 13th level maximum. As wizards, Rockseers can attain 18th level maximum.

Rockseer wizards (single-classed only) gain special bonus spells as they gain experience levels. At 5th level, they can memorize Melf's acid arrow as an additional spell. At 9th level, Maximilian's stony grasp* is the bonus spell. At 15th level, a Rockseer wizard gains a bonus acid storm * spell (*these latter two spells are found in the Tome of Magic book). Rockseer wizards also add 1% per level to their magic resistance against Elemental Earth spells, and if they cast such spells at others not of their own kind, the target incurs a saving throw penalty of -1 per five levels of the Rockseer (round fractions above one-half upwards). Rockseer wizards can cast all priest Elemental Earth spells as if wizard spells of the same level.

Rockseer wizards of 11th and higher level know the secrets of creating magical "familiars" (more correctly, golem-like constructs) called stone dragonets. These incredibly intricate slender stone statuettes are 12 inches long plus an additional 9 inches to 12 inches of tail; they move as if perfectly articulated, and the finest of them have gems of extraordinary kind as eyes. A stone dragonet has AC -2, HD 2, hp 16, and attacks three times per round for 1d3/1d3/1d4 (claw/claw/bite). It has 25% general magic resistance, 75% resistance to Elemental Earth spells, and complete immunity to petrification (obviously), illusions, gaseous attacks, poison, paralyzation, and spells which affect corporeal bodies generally. A wizard with such a familiar gains a -2 bonus to his or her own Armor Class and cannot be surprised. If the gem-eyes of the statuette are each of value not less than 5,000 gp, the eyes of the dragonet can cast a brilliant eyebite glare once per day if the correct spells are cast during the creation of the familiar.

Rockseer elves have 240-foot infravision. They do not, as a rule, possess many magic items. Nonwizards have but a 5% chance per level of owning a magical weapon. Wizards have a 10% chance per level of owning a magic item of appropriate kind, but these are often powerful indeed. The greatest wizards are reputed to possess special wands of steam and vapor which create acrid clouds of burning, blinding acid (6d6 points of damage the first round, 4d6 the second, and 2d6 the third and final).

On account of their longevity (they have a natural lifespan of over 1,400 years), groups of Rockseers are almost always led by an experienced veteran, a warrior or warrior-wizard of at least 5th (or 4th/4th) level. A sizeable group (30 or more) will have at least one warrior of 7th to 10th level (6+1d4) and also a wizard of 7th to 12th level (6+1d6). In the central lair of a Rockseer clan, where up to a hundred may be gathered together, the clan chieftain is usually a wizard of surpassing skill (level 12+1d6) and has 1d3+2 advisors/bodyguards who are either (50%) warriors of 10th to 11th level or wizards of 11th to 14th level (but not of higher level than the chieftain).

Rockseer elves have a -1 penalty to their initial Strength, Constitution, and Charisma scores, but they gain +1 bonuses to Wisdom, Intelligence, and Dexterity.

Habitat/Society: Rockseers believe that all they have is themselves and the riches of the earth. They are powerfully cohesive socially. Chieftains are generally elected by a conclave of the most powerful warriors and wizards on the death of the previous leader. A wise Rockseer leader does not give orders without consulting his or her advisors. Rockseers do not tolerate tyrannical leadership, nor do they suffer fools.

The lairs of Rockseers are supremely well disguised and warded. Multiple spells are always cunningly placed to prevent other creatures even suspecting the existence of such a network of caverns and passages, let alone entering them. Spies (usually thieves melding into stone) are always placed to watch out over areas close to the entry points of caverns. Some Rockseers live in caverns accessible only by stone walking or similar magic, where hundreds of feet of solid rock separate them from the outside world, with only small fissures to provide air.

Rockseers are highly unusual among elves in that they have little curiosity. Few among them have any desire to learn the ways of other folk. This is largely the legacy of a long historical sense of shame at their mythic history; they consider themselves tainted and instinctively avoid those who they think would condemn them. Once awakened, however, their curiosity can lead them to act in uncharacteristic ways, as those who stumble upon them will soon discover.

Rockseers are gem cutters and craftsmen almost without equal; even gnomes and dwarves would hesitate to claim they could better Rockseer work. They can almost scent gemlodes deep in the Underdark and think nothing of spending ten years crafting and sculpting a single gem. The truly great Rockseer wizard-artisans are able to sculpt a gem with magic into forms of almost painfully exquisite beauty, generating fractal patterns of brilliant color and radiance within the heart of the gem as it grows. A handful of such perfectly crafted gems can be used to create a helm of brilliance (divide all gem numbers required by five, and each gem can fulfil its function five times before becoming nonmagical).

Rockseers are strange, alien, and fey people even by the standards of elvenkind. They are a serious people with little of the light-hearted, frolicking, bantering ways of most elves. They speak their own dialect of Elvish, which high or gray elves can understand 50% of the time and drow 30% of the time. They also know fragments of svirfneblin, and most can speak pech. A few have a smattering of underdark-dwarven and can communicate with derro or duergar (not that they would wish to do so, but it is useful for intelligence-gathering). Above all, they are totally isolated. They know nothing of what has transpired above ground for thousands of years. Their attitudes to surface elves are very ambivalent. All Rockseers feel a deep sense of shame for the deeds of their far-distant ancestors and assume that any surface elf they meet would automatically despise them; it will be very difficult for a visitor to convince them otherwise. On the other hand, they long to know what their brethren lost for so many lifetimes do, how they live, what they believe in, what they consider beautiful.

Ecology: Rockseers hardly interact with anyone else in the Underdark. They eat fungi, moss, lichens, and cave creatures such as lizards and eels. They avoid violence and the endless struggle between different factions in the Underdark and keep to themselves. They are calm, enigmatic, and extraordinarily hard for outsiders to understand.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 7, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ohhhh.......   WE'RE BACK!



Yaaaayyyyy!!!



> OK, looks like the whole of the rockseer conversion was wiped out with the board crash.  that shouldn't be too much of a problem as, from what i recall, we were very nearly done.  here are the original stats.  anyone remember what was left to work on?  if not, it shouldn't take too long to figure it out.  .






			
				Creature Catalog new 3.5 conversions said:
			
		

> Automatic Languages: Elven, Undercommon?. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, ???.



Don't remember if this was discussed but what about Terran and Drow (know thy enemy) as bonus languages. Terran seems appropriate given their ability to summon Earth Elementals.



> Challenge Rating: 1/2?



Is that 1 or 2 or a half? I would plumb for 1. They're better than standard elf warriors but, maybe, not as good as a drow warrior.   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 7, 2006)

that's 1/2 as in one-half.  seems like a good call on the bonus languages.

i'll have to print out what we have so far and take a look at it, maybe then i can figure out what else we needed to work on.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 7, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> that's 1/2 as in one-half.



I'd prefer CR: 1 but it may already have been discussed to death.  



> i'll have to print out what we have so far and take a look at it, maybe then i can figure out what else we needed to work on.



Yes, its fairly lengthly to read on screen. 

Its funny but this Saturday I'll be playing in a 3.0 conversion (the one from the conversion board - well they're the files I gave to the GM) of Night Below, although I don't expect the rockseer to done by then. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2006)

Woo-hoo!  Convertin' time.    



> Skills: Racial bonus to Appraise and Craft (gemcutting)?




Did we discuss this?  +2 seems reasonable to both.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 7, 2006)

that works for me.  how about Mortis' comments on bonus languages and CR?


----------



## Shade (Jun 7, 2006)

Terran, definitely.  By Drow, do you mean drow sign language?   That's an interesting idea.

I think CR 1/2 is appropriate.  While they do have a few spell-like abilities, they don't have a huge impact on combat unless class levels are piled on.  Essentially, they can escape one grapple/entangle attack.


----------



## dhaga (Jun 7, 2006)

I was going to go for CR 1, what with the spell-like abilities, but after scanning the description, I think CR 1/2 suits them fine.


----------



## dhaga (Jun 7, 2006)

Oh, and Wooha! on 







			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> ohhhh....... WE'RE BACK!


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 7, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Terran, definitely.  By Drow, do you mean drow sign language?   That's an interesting idea.




actually, i didn't even think about that - good catch!


----------



## BOZ (Jun 8, 2006)

OK, so I'm making these relatively minor changes so far:

+2 racial bonus on Appraise and Craft (gemcutting)
Bonus Languages: Drow Sign Language, Terran


I don't know that we've done much discussion on CR yet.  Maybe we can get a general consensus going on whether or not they should be CR 1 or CR 1/2.


I didn't get a chance to read over the descriptions while at work, and don't know that I will get a chance before I leave for gaming (1 hour and 15 minutes from now...), but it will happen when it happens.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 8, 2006)

On CR, I think, that the ability to _Meld with Stone_ at will and the baility to summon Earth Elementals should push the CR to 1.

The darkvision range of 240 feet seems rather long. Any other creatures have a range like that?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> On CR, I think, that the ability to _Meld with Stone_ at will and the baility to summon Earth Elementals should push the CR to 1.




Meld into stone doesn't really have much of an impact on combat, though.  At best, the rockseer hides and casts a few spells on itself (assuming it has any), then re-emerges slightly more buffed.  On the other hand, it loses awareness of the positions and actions of its foes and risks being injured or killed if the stone containing it is damaged.  I see this much more of a factor of LA than CR (which it is..."at will" SLAs add +1 LA).

As for summoning earth elementals, they must be 6th level and take a feat to do this.  If it requires a separate feat, it can't really be assumed in a base creature's CR.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> The darkvision range of 240 feet seems rather long. Any other creatures have a range like that?




Drow have 120 ft., and it doesn't affect their CR (it's all about the spell resistance).

I think the real litmus test is to compare them to other elves.   Are they better than standard elves?  Absolutely.  Are they as good as drow?  The drow's SR, no penalties on ability scores, and the ability to use SLAs that impact combat seem to give them the edge.  So maybe we should go with CR 3/4?  Is there precedent for this?   I know I've seen 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2.


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## BOZ (Jun 8, 2006)

3/4?  i doubt it...

(and whoops - signed in as "regular me" by force of habit)


----------



## Mortis (Jun 8, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> As for summoning earth elementals, they must be 6th level and take a feat to do this.  If it requires a separate feat, it can't really be assumed in a base creature's CR.



Completely missed the fact that it was a feat, I just read it as another special ability.   


> I think the real litmus test is to compare them to other elves.   Are they better than standard elves?  Absolutely.  Are they as good as drow?  The drow's SR, no penalties on ability scores, and the ability to use SLAs that impact combat seem to give them the edge.  So maybe we should go with CR 3/4?  Is there precedent for this?   I know I've seen 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2.



That's the problem are they closer to standard elves or drow in terms of power. I would argue that drow CR should be 1 higher but that besides the point...   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 8, 2006)

i don't really like 3/4 of a CR anyway.  it should be either 1/2 or 1.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 8, 2006)

Lets forget standard elves and drow for a moment. How are powerful  are rockseer's compared with other CR 1/2 and CR 1 creatures? I suppose the crux would be if they are as good or better than the majority of CR 1s

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2006)

Taking a sampling (feel free to add):

CR 1/2:
Hobgoblin - unbalanced ability scores
Orc - great Str, little else
Gnoll - 2 HD, unbalanced ability scores
Aasimar - resistance to 3 types of energy, SLAs, unbalanced ability scores
Tiefling - resistance to 3 types of energy, SLAs, unbalanced ability scores

CR 1:
Githzerai - spell resistance, constant +4 armor bonus, SLAs, unbalanced ability scores
Githyanki - spell resistance, SLAs, unbalanced ability scores
Duergar - 120 ft. darkvision, SLAs that affect combat, immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison
Svirfneblin - 120 ft. darkvision, SLAs that affect combat, nondetection

I see the rockseers about on par with the aasimars and tieflings.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 8, 2006)

Go ahead and keep debating, but I have--

Good news, everyone!  

I had set them aside so long ago that I forgot I had them.  Before I got too busy to work on the conversion threads, it looks like I had actually printed out most of them (presumably, to take them home to look at them when I got the chance).  For the rockseer, for example, I had printed out the original 10th page of this thread (which amounted to 12 actual printed pages)!  I would scan and repost all of this, but honestly, that would take some time and I don't think we'd get a lot out of it.  Instead, I'll skim what I have, and see what didn't get resolved already.


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2006)

Sweeeeeet.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 8, 2006)

indeed!  i figured out where we left off, too.



			
				Night Below said:
			
		

> The greatest wizards are reputed to possess special wands of steam and vapor which create acrid clouds of burning, blinding acid (6d6 points of damage the first round, 4d6 the second, and 2d6 the third and final).




i looked up in the Encyclopedia Magica and found the wand of steam and vapor therein (originally found in 1E's Unearthed Arcana):



			
				Encylopedia Magica said:
			
		

> A wand of this sort has two separate functions, each of which requires the expenditure of one charge:
> 
> -- Steam: The wand will spout forth a jet of superheated steam in a cone 10'x30x50'. Any creature within this area takes 6d6 points of damage. The cloud persists, slowly cooling, so that on the second round it inflicts 4d6 damage, and on the third and last round it causes 2d6 damage. Saving throws apply for half damage in all cases. Naturally, fire-dwelling or fire-using creatures will not be harmed by the steam --- unless they are harmed by dampness.
> 
> -- Vapor: The wand will gout forth billows of warm, steamy vapors. These vapors are equal to a fog cloud of 40-foot depth, 60-foot height, and 80-foot breadth. This vaporous cloud persists for six rounds, remaining stationary unless moved about by magical or nonmagical breezes or winds. Cold-using creatures will suffer 1 point of damage per round while inside the vapor cloud, and cold-dwelling creatures will take twice that amount of damage.




so, we came up with this:

*Rod of Acrid Steam and Vapor*
This rod has the following two magical powers:

* Steam: Once per day as a standard action, the wielder can cause the rod to spout forth a jet of superheated, acidic steam as a 50-foot cone.  The steam forms a cloud that persists for three rounds, slowly cooling and dissipating.  In the first round, the steam deals 3d6 points of fire damage and 3d6 points of fire damage; in the second round the steam deals 2d6 points of fire damage and 2d6 points of fire damage and in the third and final round the steam deals 1d6 points of fire damage and 1d6 points of fire damage.  Creatures that succeed on a Reflex save take half damage.  Also, living creatures caught in the cloud on the first round must succeed on a Fortitude save or become permanently blinded by the acid.

* Vapor: Three times per day as a standard action, the wielder can cause the rod to gout forth billows of warm, steamy vapors.  These vapors spread out to an 80-foot radius cloud that lasts for six rounds.  Creatures with the Cold subtype trapped within the cloud will suffer X points of damage per round.  This effect otherwise functions as the fog cloud spell.

(Moderate) evocation; CL Xth; Craft Rod, fog cloud, (other spells?); Price X gp.


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2006)

Great!

I'd suggest at least 1d6 damage per round to cold subtype critters in the vapor effect.  Otherwise, you're better off using the steam function on them.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 8, 2006)

that works.  ideas for filling in that last line?


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2006)

Fog cloud is 2nd level, so minimum caster level is 3rd.

We could add incendiary cloud (8th level), raising caster level to 15th.

Or we could find some middle ground, maybe fog cloud and fireball, raising caster level to 5th.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 9, 2006)

rods in the DMG range from CL 9th-20th.  of course, this could have something to do with the minimum requirements for Craft Rod.  

15th wouldn't be unreasonably high, i think.  i count 19 rods in the DMG (taking the metamagic rods as a single item).  calculating... the average CL for a for is 13.

incendiary cloud seems excellent to me, though if you like we could replace it with an appropriate 6th or 7th level spell (i wouldn't want the CL to get too low).  acid fog would be ideal, for one.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 9, 2006)

OK Shade you've convinced me   CR 1/2

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2006)

Acid fog would work.

Mortis - they are a tough CR 1/2, though.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 9, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Mortis - they are a tough CR 1/2, though.



Solved! They're CR 1/2 when I GM and CR 1 when I play   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Solved! They're CR 1/2 when I GM and CR 1 when I play




Now _that's _ what I call a good interpretation of the rules!


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 9, 2006)

heheh  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Acid fog would work.




i agree.


*Rod of Acrid Steam and Vapor*
This rod has the following two magical powers:

* Steam: Once per day as a standard action, the wielder can cause the rod to spout forth a jet of superheated, acidic steam as a 50-foot cone.  The steam forms a cloud that persists for three rounds, slowly cooling and dissipating.  In the first round, the steam deals 3d6 points of acid damage and 3d6 points of fire damage; in the second round the steam deals 2d6 points of acid damage and 2d6 points of fire damage and in the third and final round the steam deals 1d6 points of acid damage and 1d6 points of fire damage.  Creatures that succeed on a Reflex save take half damage.  Also, living creatures caught in the cloud on the first round must succeed on a Fortitude save or become _permanently?_ blinded by the acid.

* Vapor: Three times per day as a standard action, the wielder can cause billows of warm, steamy vapors to gout forth from the rod.  These vapors spread out to an 80-foot radius cloud that lasts for six rounds.  Creatures with the Cold subtype trapped within the cloud will suffer 1d6 points of damage per round.  This effect otherwise functions as the fog cloud spell.

Moderate evocation; CL 11th; Craft Rod, fog cloud, acid fog; Price X gp.


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2006)

Attempting to determine cost:

50 charges, spell trigger Spell level (6) x caster level (11) x 750 gp = 49,500
Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day [1]) = divide by 5
49,500/5 = 9,900

50 charges, spell trigger Spell level (2) x caster level (11) x 750 gp = 16,500
Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day [3]) = divide by 1.66
16,500/1.66= ~ 9,940

Multiple different abilities Multiply higher item cost by 2 (9900 x2) = 19,800

Or, to follow the guidelines for staffs, add .75 x the second function cost to the total.  This would give:

9,940 x .75 = 7,455
19,800 + 7,455 = 27,255.

This isn't really my forte, so if anyone has a better solution, please post it.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 9, 2006)

if that was calculated correctly, i'll take the 27,255.  


only two other items remain potentially unresolved:



			
				Night Below said:
			
		

> Rockseer wizards of 11th and higher level know the secrets of creating magical "familiars" (more correctly, golem-like constructs) called stone dragonets. These incredibly intricate slender stone statuettes are 12" long plus an additional 9" to 12" of tail; they move as if perfectly articulated, and the finest of them have gems of extraordinary kind as eyes. A stone dragonet has AC -2, HD 2, hp 16, and attacks three times per round for 1d3/1d3/1d4 (claw/claw/bite). It has 25% general magic resistance, 75% resistance to Elemental Earth spells, and complete immunity to petrification (obviously), illusions, gaseous attacks, poison, paralyzation, and spells which affect corporeal bodies generally. A wizard with such a familiar gains a -2 bonus to his or her own Armor Class and cannot be surprised. If the gem-eyes of the statuette are each of value not less than 5,000 gp, the eyes of the dragonet can cast a brilliant eyebite glare once per day if the correct spells are cast during the creation of the familiar.
> 
> 
> Rockseers are gem cutters and craftsmen almost without equal; even gnomes and dwarves would hesitate to claim they could better Rockseer work. They can almost scent gemlodes deep in the Underdark and think nothing of spending ten years Grafting and sculpting a single gem. The truly great Rockseer wizard-artisans are able to sculpt a gem with magic into forms of almost painfully exquisite beauty, generating fractal patterns of brilliant color and radiance within the heart of the gem as it grows. A handful of such perfectly crafted gems can be used to create a helm of brilliance (divide all gem numbers required by five, and each gem can fulfil its function five times before becoming nonmagical).


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2006)

For the stone dragonets, we discussed stating them up separately as constructs, and then describing how they are created in the Construction section of the entry.

We could also make them similiar to figurines of wondrous power.

As far the gemcrafting, didn't we give them a racial bonus to Appraise and Craft (gemcutting)?  If not, we should.


----------



## dhaga (Jun 9, 2006)

I think having the stone dragonets as constructs would be the way to go.

BOZ tacked on a +2 racial to both those skills at the top of page 10 of this thread.  I agree these are good additions.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 9, 2006)

we did give them a bonus, but would that cover this part? "The truly great Rockseer wizard-artisans are able to sculpt a gem with magic into forms of almost painfully exquisite beauty, generating fractal patterns of brilliant color and radiance within the heart of the gem as it grows. A handful of such perfectly crafted gems can be used to create a helm of brilliance (divide all gem numbers required by five, and each gem can fulfil its function five times before becoming nonmagical)."  if not, should we add it as just flavor text maybe?


as for the dragonets, yes, giving them stats as a Construct seems appropriate.  anyone have the condensed stat block handy?    let's break that down to make it easier to read:

Rockseer wizards of 11th and higher level know the secrets of creating magical "familiars" (more correctly, golem-like constructs) called stone dragonets. 

These incredibly intricate slender stone statuettes are 12" long plus an additional 9" to 12" of tail; they move as if perfectly articulated, and the finest of them have gems of extraordinary kind as eyes. 

A stone dragonet has AC -2, HD 2, hp 16, and attacks three times per round for 1d3/1d3/1d4 (claw/claw/bite). 

It has 25% general magic resistance, 75% resistance to Elemental Earth spells, and complete immunity to petrification (obviously), illusions, gaseous attacks, poison, paralyzation, and spells which affect corporeal bodies generally. 

A wizard with such a familiar gains a -2 bonus to his or her own Armor Class and cannot be surprised. 

If the gem-eyes of the statuette are each of value not less than 5,000 gp, the eyes of the dragonet can cast a brilliant eyebite glare once per day if the correct spells are cast during the creation of the familiar.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 9, 2006)

some basic placeholders in the meantime:

Stone Dragonet
Tiny Construct
Hit Dice: 2d10 (11 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: X ft (X squares) 
Armor Class: 22 (+1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+X
Attack: Claw +X melee (1d3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (1d3) and bite +X melee (1d4)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Eyebite
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, resistance to earth spells, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con ---, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> we did give them a bonus, but would that cover this part? "The truly great Rockseer wizard-artisans are able to sculpt a gem with magic into forms of almost painfully exquisite beauty, generating fractal patterns of brilliant color and radiance within the heart of the gem as it grows. A handful of such perfectly crafted gems can be used to create a helm of brilliance (divide all gem numbers required by five, and each gem can fulfil its function five times before becoming nonmagical)."  if not, should we add it as just flavor text maybe?




Flavor text.  The helm of brilliance doesn't include any provisions for special gems, so no need to make a big deal out of it here.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> as for the dragonets, yes, giving them stats as a Construct seems appropriate.  anyone have the condensed stat block handy?




Old-school or newfangled?




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Rockseer wizards of 11th and higher level know the secrets of creating magical "familiars" (more correctly, golem-like constructs) called stone dragonets.




I'd say we have our creator level.    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> These incredibly intricate slender stone statuettes are 12" long plus an additional 9" to 12" of tail; they move as if perfectly articulated, and the finest of them have gems of extraordinary kind as eyes.




Sounds like Tiny to me.  



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> A stone dragonet has AC -2, HD 2, hp 16, and attacks three times per round for 1d3/1d3/1d4 (claw/claw/bite).




AC 22.  We've got our full attack line.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> It has 25% general magic resistance, 75% resistance to Elemental Earth spells, and complete immunity to petrification (obviously), illusions, gaseous attacks, poison, paralyzation, and spells which affect corporeal bodies generally.




Most of this is covered by the construct type. If we go the golem right, we'll just need to focus on the vulnerabilities.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> A wizard with such a familiar gains a -2 bonus to his or her own Armor Class and cannot be surprised.




We can state that rockseers can take 'em as familiars with the Improved Familiar feat at a certain level, I suppose, and impart these benefits.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> If the gem-eyes of the statuette are each of value not less than 5,000 gp, the eyes of the dragonet can cast a brilliant eyebite glare once per day if the correct spells are cast during the creation of the familiar.




Variant or "greater stone dragonet".


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 9, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Flavor text.  The helm of brilliance doesn't include any provisions for special gems, so no need to make a big deal out of it here.




okey-dokey.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Old-school or newfangled?




is there more than one type?    you know, the one where it's condensed into a paragraph.  i think i've still seen it in use.  heck, even if it isn't, i still want to use it here.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd say we have our creator level.
> 
> Sounds like Tiny to me.
> 
> ...




see post 386 in the meantime.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We can state that rockseers can take 'em as familiars with the Improved Familiar feat at a certain level, I suppose, and impart these benefits.




that's a good idea.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Variant or "greater stone dragonet".




or, we could write up the ability and say that only certain dragonets get it.


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2006)

Old-school format you seek.

Stone dragonet: Tiny construct; HD 2d10; hp 22; Init +x; Spd x ft. (x squares); AC 22, touch x, flat-footed x; Base Atk +1; Grp +x; Atk +x melee (1d3, claw); Full Atk +x melee (1d3, claw) and +x melee (1d4, bite); Space/Reach 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.; SA eyebite; SQ construct traits, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, resistance to earth spells, spell resistance X; AL N; SV Fort +x, Ref +x, Will +x; Str x, Dex x, Con -, Int -, Wis x, Cha x.
Skills and Feats: If any.

A stone dragonet can be acquired as a familiar by a Xth-level rockseer arcane spellcaster with the Improved Familiar feat. See page 200 of the DMG for more information.


Note that it gets a +2 size bonus to AC.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 9, 2006)

danke.  

Tiny creatures typically have Str 2-5 and Dex 12-23.  we could make it a little bit stronger, since it is a stone construct (why not?), and i'd put dex somewhere mid-range.

i would only give it an Int score if such things are necessary for it to be a familiar.  most unintelligent constructs seem to have Wis 10-11 and Cha 1.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 9, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> hp 22




really?  i didn't think Tiny creatures got bonus hp.


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> really?  i didn't think Tiny creatures got bonus hp.




The hazards of cut n' paste.  I say that so often, I think I'm going to start using THoCnP.


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2006)

How about Str 10 (so we don't have a penalty and can keep the damage values as they were), Dex 17 (leaving natural armor at +7 to get 22), Wis 11, Cha 1?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 9, 2006)

perfecto!


----------



## BOZ (Jun 10, 2006)

OK, here is the dragonet for your perusal.  also, i've updated in homebrews; be aware that i've italicized some points that i think need reviewing.


STONE DRAGONET
Rockseer elves know the secret to crafting a magical construct called a stone dragonet.  A rockseer must be 11th level or higher and have the Craft Construct feat.  A stone dragonet resembles an incredibly intricate, slender stone statue of a dragon, though it moves as if perfectly articulated.  A dragonet is one foot long, plus an additional 9-12 inches of tail, with extraordinary gems for eyes.

A creator can give the stone dragonet a special eyebite attack (see below) by placing gems of at least 5,000 gp value each as the dragonet's eyes, and casting the spell eyebite during the creation process.

A rockseer elf with the Improved Familiar feat and Rockseer Magic feat can take a stone dragonet as a familiar upon reaching Xth level.  A wizard with a stone dragonet as a familiar gains a +2 (type) bonus on Armor Class and cannot be caught flat-footed.

Stone dragonet: Tiny construct; HD 2d10; hp 11; Init +3; Spd x ft. (x squares); AC 22, touch 15, flat-footed 19; Base Atk +1; Grp -7; Atk +1 melee (1d3, claw); Full Atk +1 melee (1d3, claw) and +4 melee (1d4, bite); Space/Reach 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.; SA eyebite; SQ construct traits, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, resistance to earth spells, spell resistance X; AL N; SV Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +0; Str 10, Dex 17, Con ---, Int ---, Wis 11, Cha 1.

Eyebite (Sp?): A stone dragonet with the appropriate modifications (see above) can cast eyebite as a gaze attack once per day.

Resistance to Earth Spells (Ex): 75% resistance to Elemental Earth spells (maybe a saving throw bonus?)


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, here is the dragonet for your perusal.  also, i've updated in homebrews; be aware that i've italicized some points that i think need reviewing.
> 
> 
> STONE DRAGONET
> ...


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 12, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> 7th level seems about appropriate for selecting one as a familiar.  For the AC bonus, I'd go with insight or deflection.




insight seems more appropriate.  what sorts of bonuses are typical for improved familiars?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Spd 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft.?




that's fine.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Since familiars gain spell resistance anyway, I'd rather give them immunity to most spells (like golems), or give them a low spell resistance that stacks with spell resistance granted from familiar benefits.




they're not always necessarily familiars though, are they?  we can certainly make them immune to earth spells also, if that would make more sense.



> I think eyebite is too powerful for a 2 HD creature.  Plus, eyebite has the [evil] descriptor, which seems out of place with the "usually neutral" alignment we gave the rockseers.  I'd vote to make it a lesser version of eyebite, only sickening or panicking creatures.  Maybe something like this?
> 
> Brilliant Glare (Su):  Once per day, a stone dragonet can release a blast from its gem-eyes, targeting one creature within 60 (?) feet.  The target must succeed on a DC 11 Fortitude save or become sickened for X rounds.  If the target has less than X hit points, it is also panicked for 1d4 rounds.   The save DC is Constitution-based.




eh, we can kill the eyebite.  your replacement seems fine, and we can just give that to all the dragonets rather than just a few.





			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I think the bonus vs. saves with the earth descriptor is more elegant than the conditional spell resistance.  Should it be a flat bonus, say +2, or variable, based on Cha modifier or HD?




i'm fine with a flat bonus.  since the rockseer got 50% resistance to earth spells, do you want to make the bonus more than +2?


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> insight seems more appropriate.  what sorts of bonuses are typical for improved familiars?




Improved familiars don't generally impart bonuses to the master.  The few that did appear to grant unnamed bonuses.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> they're not always necessarily familiars though, are they?  we can certainly make them immune to earth spells also, if that would make more sense.




Since they are most likely only created by rockseer wizards, most of them are.    

That said, it probably isn't right to just assume they are familiars.  We could give them SR = 25% MR (using the conversion guide's forumal, 25/5 = 5 +11 = 16, or more accurately for 25% of the time at 2 HD, SR 8).   Otherwise, I'm fine with simple immunity to earth spells.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm fine with a flat bonus.  since the rockseer got 50% resistance to earth spells, do you want to make the bonus more than +2?




Since most of the standard races have +2 bonuses on their "niche saves", I think +2 will suffice.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 12, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Improved familiars don't generally impart bonuses to the master.  The few that did appear to grant unnamed bonuses.




we can go with an untyped bonus, then.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Since they are most likely only created by rockseer wizards, most of them are.
> 
> That said, it probably isn't right to just assume they are familiars.  We could give them SR = 25% MR (using the conversion guide's forumal, 25/5 = 5 +11 = 16, or more accurately for 25% of the time at 2 HD, SR 8).   Otherwise, I'm fine with simple immunity to earth spells.




i'd rather go with the 16, just to make it useful.    how shall we state the immunity to earth spells?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Since most of the standard races have +2 bonuses on their "niche saves", I think +2 will suffice.




i guess that will work.  "+2 racial bonus on saves against spells with the earth descriptor"?


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> we can go with an untyped bonus, then.




Okely-dokely.




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'd rather go with the 16, just to make it useful.    how shall we state the immunity to earth spells?




Earth Immunity/Earthborn/Earth Affinity (Ex):  A stone dragonet is immune to the harmful effects of any spell with the earth descriptor.

(This way, it can still benefit from positive effects from earth spells)



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i guess that will work.  "+2 racial bonus on saves against spells with the earth descriptor"?




Sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2006)

Or....

Here's what an earth genasi gets:

+1 racial bonus on saving throws against all earth spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the genasi attains.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 12, 2006)

actually, that's perfect.    that's from MoF, or RoF?


here's the dragonet again:

STONE DRAGONET
Rockseer elves know the secret to crafting a magical construct called a stone dragonet. A rockseer must be 11th level or higher and have the Craft Construct feat. A stone dragonet resembles an incredibly intricate, slender stone statue of a dragon, though it moves as if perfectly articulated. A dragonet is one foot long, plus an additional 9-12 inches of tail, with extraordinary gems for eyes.

A rockseer elf with the Improved Familiar feat and Rockseer Magic feat can take a stone dragonet as a familiar upon reaching 7th level. A wizard with a stone dragonet as a familiar gains a +2 bonus on Armor Class and cannot be caught flat-footed.

Stone dragonet: Tiny construct; HD 2d10; hp 11; Init +3; Spd 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft.; AC 22, touch 15, flat-footed 19; Base Atk +1; Grp -7; Atk +1 melee (1d3, claw); Full Atk +1 melee (1d3, claw) and +4 melee (1d4, bite); Space/Reach 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.; SA brilliant glare; SQ construct traits, darkvision 60 ft, immunity to earth magic, low-light vision, spell resistance 16; AL N; SV Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +0; Str 10, Dex 17, Con ---, Int ---, Wis 11, Cha 1.

Brilliant Glare (Su):  Once per day, a stone dragonet can release a blast from its gem-eyes, targeting one creature within 60 feet.  The target must succeed on a DC 11 Fortitude save or become sickened for X rounds.  If the target has less than X hit points, it is also panicked for 1d4 rounds.   The save DC is Constitution-based.

Immunity to Earth Magic (Ex): A stone dragonet is immune to the harmful effects of any spell with the earth descriptor.


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## Shade (Jun 12, 2006)

Definitely RoF, possibly MoF.   

Lookin' good.  For brilliant glare, how about 2d4 rounds for sickened condition?   Also, how about less than 5 HD for panicked (not hit points...oops)?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 12, 2006)

that works for me.  i'll have another look at it when i get home, time permitting.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 14, 2006)

OK, updating again in homebrews.  let me know if i missed anything.  there are still a few italicized bits that i wasn't sure about.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 14, 2006)

> Creatures that succeed on a Reflex save take half damage. Also, living creatures caught in the cloud on the first round must succeed on a Fortitude save or become *permanently?* blinded by the acid.




Would/could permanently blinded mean the destruction of the eyes? If so would this mean that you would _regeneration_ as a cure rather than _remove blindness_?

Either way I have no problem with the effect being permanent. (It does require two failed saving thows.)

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2006)

I suppose we'll need construction costs for the stone dragonet.

Prereqs should probably be eyebite and stone shape.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 14, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Would/could permanently blinded mean the destruction of the eyes? If so would this mean that you would _regeneration_ as a cure rather than _remove blindness_?
> 
> Either way I have no problem with the effect being permanent. (It does require two failed saving thows.)




no, i wouldn't want to see the eyes permanently destroyed.  what monsters/spells cause blindness that doesn't go away naturally?  i mean effects that cause a blindness that requires magical healing to restore sight.  do those say permanenly blinded, or do they just say blinded, and the assumption is that you need remove blindness or something to restore sight?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I suppose we'll need construction costs for the stone dragonet.
> 
> Prereqs should probably be eyebite and stone shape.




sounds good.  want to have a golem-style construction section?  i would make it really brief though.


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds good.  want to have a golem-style construction section?  i would make it really brief though.




We probably should, although those are painful to figure out.   :\


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 14, 2006)

do we have anything better to do?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 14, 2006)

we can steal from the stone golem, changing the values as needed to produce a much smaller, weaker creature:

A stone dragonet's body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, weighing around X pounds.  The stone must be of exceptional quality and costs X gp.  Assembling the body requires a DC X Craft (sculpting) check or a DC X Craft (stonemasonry) check.

CL 11th; Craft Construct (see MM page 303), eyebite, stone shape, caster must be at least 11th level; Price X gp; Cost X gp + X XP.


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> do we have anything better to do?




Well, I do have a certain new gamebook I'm rather enjoying reading.    

Other low-CR golem costs:

Paper (CR 1):  200 gp body, DC 15.
Wax (CR 2):  500 gp, DC 15.
Tin (CR 3):  400 gp, DC 20.
Wood (CR 3):  1,000 gp, DC 15.
Fungus (CR 4):  1,000 gp, DC 20.

So it looks like we're shooting for around 300-500 gp for the body and DC 15-20.


----------



## dhaga (Jun 14, 2006)

40 lb. chunk of stone, 400 gp to purchase, DC 17?


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2006)

That sounds good to me.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 14, 2006)

*grumble*  damnit, signed in as "me" again!  guess i'll have to stick around a little late after work.   :\ 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Well, I do have a certain new gamebook I'm rather enjoying reading.




some of us are luckier than others.      actually, when i leave, i'll go see if i can browse it at the local bookstore... failing that, i can take the trip to FLGS-land tomorrow!



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> 40 lb. chunk of stone, 400 gp to purchase, DC 17?




that sounds just fine, as far as i can tell.  



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Price X gp; Cost X gp + X XP.




i forgot - how do we figure this part out, again?


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2006)

Hey, my Conversion Notes thread actually came in handy.  



> A construct's creator must have a caster level high enough to cast any prerequisite spell the construct has.




OK, I suggested eyebite and stone shape as prereqs, but I contradicted my earlier opposition to eyebite on the fact that it has the evil descriptor.  Let's replace it with ghoul touch (no evil descriptor, surprisingly) and fear.   Fear would be the highest-level spell (4th), so the caster level must be at least 7th.



> Cost: A construct's description (usually) includes a market price and a cost to create the construct. To calculate the creation cost for a construct, subtract the cost of any special materials the construct requires from the market price. Divide the remainder in half. The result you get represents the basic materials you must buy to build the construct. This basic cost includes the cost of the construct's body. Most construct descriptions include a separate cost for the body to allow DMs and players to use the Craft skill to create the body.
> 
> The total cost to create the construct is the basic cost plus the cost of special materials. For example, a construct with a market price of 100,000 gp and 10,000 gp worth of required special materials has a creation cost of 55,000 gp. (Here's the math: 100,000 - 10,000 = 90,000; then 90,000/2=45,000; then 45,000 + 10,000 = 55,000 gp.)




The CR 2 wax golem has a cost of 1,500 gp and a market price of 2,500 gp.

If we go with mp of 2,500 - 400 gp for the body = 2,100 /2 = 1,050 + 400 = 1,450



> Making the construct also requires experience points equal to 1/25th the market price minus the cost of special materials. The construct from the previous example has an XP cost of 3,600.




2,500 - 400 gp for the body = 2,100/25 = 84

So we have:

   CL 7th; Craft Construct, fear, ghoul touch, stone shape, caster must be at least 7th level; Price 2,500 gp; Cost 1,450 gp + 84 XP.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 15, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hey, my Conversion Notes thread actually came in handy.




well, that's fortunate!    i'll trust your figures.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> no, i wouldn't want to see the eyes permanently destroyed.  what monsters/spells cause blindness that doesn't go away naturally?  i mean effects that cause a blindness that requires magical healing to restore sight.  do those say permanenly blinded, or do they just say blinded, and the assumption is that you need remove blindness or something to restore sight?




the Blindness/Deafness spell simply says that the subject is blinded, though the duration of the spell is permanent.  here's what is says happens with the nymph when you fail the save: "be blinded permanently as though by the _blindness_ spell."


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## Mortis (Jun 15, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the Blindness/Deafness spell simply says that the subject is blinded, though the duration of the spell is permanent.  here's what is says happens with the nymph when you fail the save: "be blinded permanently as though by the _blindness_ spell."



Stick with that then?

Anything else?

Regards
Mortis


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 15, 2006)

How about this:

Also, living creatures caught in the cloud of acid on the first round must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be blinded permanently as though by the _blindness_ spell.



How about these sections, do they look OK?

_ +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all earth spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the rockseer attains.
-1 racial penalty on saves against spells with the air descriptor?
(Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.) _


Rockseer Magic [General]
Your training has emphasized skills that help you spread the word of your faith. _(is that what we want it to say?)_


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2006)

That all looks good except for the feats line.

I'd change it to:

"You have studied the long-standing arcane traditions of your people which allows you to better harness the powers of the earth."


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## BOZ (Jun 16, 2006)

OK, updating in homebrews.  take one last, long look over it to make sure everything is cool.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 16, 2006)

Looks done to me, except for one very minor issue.

The feet abbrevations in the Space/Reach line need full stops.

Regards
Gary


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 16, 2006)

well, that's hardly the worst thing.  

we're done here, then?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2006)

I think so.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 16, 2006)

been awhile since we could say that, eh?  

we will work on finishing up another creature next week, as well.


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## Mortis (Jun 30, 2006)

*(Probably O/T) Feat question*

I probably should have started a new thread in the DnD Rules forum but it was the new feats for the Rockseer Elf that reminded me.

What (if anything) is the difference between a Racial  Feat and a General Feat with a racial prerequisite? Is it that General Feats are covered by the SRD and Rcial feats aren't? 

I noticed similar things with other types of feats as well such as bardic, divine etc.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2006)

I think it is an attempt to better classify the hordes of feats out there.   Originally, you just had General, Item Creation, and Metamagic feats.   Then Defenders of the Faith introduced Divine feats, and now more and more subtypes have shown up.

I hope in the theoretical 4th edition that they divide feats as much as possible, making it easier to find a "sneak attack" feat, for example, rather quickly.

Anyway, to date [Racial] has been used in a couple different ways.

Some Racial feats allow you to gain additional or better benefits based on the number of Racial feats you possess.  Dragon #324's Racial feats alter a character's racial characteristics, and only allow you to possess one, which must be selected at first level.  Still other books, like Races of Stone, use Racial to simply designate a race prereq.   <whew>


----------



## Mortis (Jul 1, 2006)

Cheers Shade,


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Some Racial feats allow you to gain additional or better benefits based on the number of Racial feats you possess.  Dragon #324's Racial feats alter a character's racial characteristics, and only allow you to possess one, which must be selected at first level.  Still other books, like Races of Stone, use Racial to simply designate a race prereq.   <whew>



Its just that I've noticed that they use the sub-categories a lot it the book that introduces that particular sub-category but hardly ever after in other books. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Sep 13, 2006)

OK, call me crazy (no, really, go ahead!), but i want to work on this one next.    blame echohawk for reminding me about it.  

Fiend Folio:

PROTEIN POLYMORPH
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 9"
HIT DICE: 6-8
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: D
NO. OF ATTACKS: Variable
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 6-36 or by weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: 
6HD: V/400 + 6 per hit point
7HD: VI/575 + 8 per hit point
8HD: VI/925 + 10 per hit point

Protein polymorphs are intelligent cellular colonies with the ability to assume any form they choose. They may take the form of inanimate objects or animate creatures of 8 or fewer hit dice (depending on the size of the protein polymorph – 6, 7, or 8 hit dice). The form assumed may actually be that of several forms connected by a near-invisible (10% chance of detection) cord or film of protoplasm. The cells of the protein polymorph may specialize or de-specialize at will, taking on different textures and colours, changing completely in only one round.

These 'creatures' are extremely versatile. They may imitate anything from a pile of treasure to a small-sized room, to a party of half a dozen humans or a dozen kobolds. They will, in general, assume any form likely to draw prey, for they feed on humans and animals with little regard for type and size. They may even mix inanimate objects within their structure to add authenticity - a room or a corridor may, for instance, be part stone and part protein polymorph. Imitated creatures may wear real clothing and wield real weapons (often acquired from previous victims).

There are limits to the protein polymorph's degree of cellular control - it cannot accurately copy facial expressions, nor can it effectively duplicate the sound of speech. These limitations may lead to the exposure of the imposture as animate creatures. similarly, if a protein polymorph disguises itself as an inanimate object, there is a base chance of detecting the imposture from a distance of 10' away, but upon touch the animate nature of the cells is instantly revealed.

The normal attack of a protein polymorph is to bludgeon its prey and then enfold and crush it, inflicting 6-36 hit points of damage per round. When in the form of weapon-wielding creatures, multiple or single, it will attack as the creatures themselves would normally attack, doing damage by weapon-type as appropriate.

Protein polymorphs possess the normal strengths of imitated creatures but not those creatures' special abilities.




			
				Echohawk said:
			
		

> *Protein Polymorph*
> (From _Dungeons of Despair_, p64; (c) 1999 TSR, Inc.)
> 
> CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate to sub-tropical/Land
> ...


----------



## BOZ (Sep 13, 2006)

Erica had attempted to begin a conversion of this one using just the 1E stats (and i didn't know there were 2E stats until yesterday), here: http://p105.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm31.showMessage?topicID=347.topic

there are notes on that thread, but here are the stats repeated - undoubtedly we can use them as a source of inspiration:

Protein Polymorph
Large Shapechanger
Hit Dice: 6d8+6 (33 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 20 ft.
AC: 18 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural)
Attack: Slam +3 melee
Damage: Slam 1d6
Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved multi-weapon fighting, engulf, crush 6d6
Special Qualities: True polymorph, darkvision 60 ft., ooze qualities
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +8
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: 26
Feats: 2
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often chaotic neutral
Advancement: 7-9 HD (Large); 10-12 HD (Huge)

The natural state of a protein polymorph is that of an ooze-like ball of protoplasm. Rather than being a single creature, a protein polymorph is actually a vast colony of single-celled organisms amassed into an intelligent blob.

The protein polymorph is true shapechager, and is able to assume nearly any form it can conceive. A single protein polymorph can appear to be anything that is of roughly the same size as itself—one protein polymorph can even appear to be several different creatures when it is in fact each “individual” has a barely visible thread of protoplasm connecting them.

Combat
Normally, a protein polymorph attacks by simply slamming its opponent with a pseodopod. If it assumes the form of multiple creatures, it can attack with weapons as that creature normally would.

Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting (Ex): Because any part the cellular mass that makes up a protein polymorph can act more or less independently, a protein polymorph that takes on the form of multiple objects can strike with its full melee bonus for each form.

Engulf (Ex): A protein polymorph can simply mow down Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The protein polymorph merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the protein polymorph, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt opportunity attacks must succeed at a Reflex save (DC 14) or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the protein polymorph moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the protein polymorph’s crush attack, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body.
A protein polymorph that has engulfed an opponent cannot change its shape in any way for as long as it holds the opponent inside.

Crush (Ex): A protein polymorph deals 6d6 points of damage per round to engulfed opponents.

True Polymorph (Ex): A protein polymorph can assume the appearance of nearly anything roughly approximating its own size. It can flatten itself out to a thickness of 1 inch and cover a square with sides 3 times its Face in length. It can also form multiple creatures and objects, each connected by a barely visible thread of protoplasm. When it is using this tactic, it requires a Spot check (DC 25) to detect the thread. When it forms multiple objects, each must remain within a number of feet equal to three times its face. It can form 1 object of its own size, or 1 object of one size category less than itself for every two hit dice it possesses. If it forms objects two size categories less than itself or smaller, it can make two such objects per hit die. For example, a 6 HD protein polymorph can make one Large object, up to six Medium-size objects, and up to 12 Small or smaller objects. Regardless of the appearance the multiple objects, the protein polymorph can only deal slam damage and its armor class does not change. Thus, even if the protein polymorph transforms into six human warriors in plate mail wielding greatswords, its armor class does not change and it still deals only slam damage. 

When it is in the form of an inanimate object, a Search or Spot check (DC 20) is required to detect the ruse. Any intelligent creature that touches a protein polymorph in any form automatically detects the ruse, as the protein polymorph cannot truly emulate texture and hardness. A protein polymorph that adopts the form of a living creature cannot accurately emulate emotions or voices, and with only a few rounds of interaction a Sense Motive check (DC 15) will detect the ruse.

A protein polymorph can only assume the appearance of creatures and objects; it does not gain any of the special abilities of the emulated creature.


----------



## Gothenem (Sep 13, 2006)

Well, without the Shapechanger type, I'm thinking of Aberration (Shapechanger) for Type. With Ooze traits as a quality.

Instead of Darkvision 60, we should give it Blindsight 60ft. And its entire body acts like a sensory organ.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 14, 2006)

either Aberration or Ooze for the type, i would think, and Shapechanger subtype.


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2006)

I like Aberration (shapechanger), as it most closely resembles the Ghaunadan, which has that type/subtype.


----------



## Kwitchit (Sep 15, 2006)

Also, Oozes have no intelligence. And the Mimic, another similar creature, is Aberration (Shapechanger).


----------



## BOZ (Sep 16, 2006)

OK, you've swung me in the right direction.  Aberration (Shapechanger) it is.  

mind you, oozes *can* have an intelligence score (just like undead, constructs, vermin, and plants can), but as a rule they usually do not.

now, if we ever get around to converting the mustard jelly i will prove it to you...


----------



## BOZ (Sep 27, 2006)

now that that's settled, i've 3.5-ed Erica's original stat block:

Protein Polymorph
Large Aberration (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 6d8+6 (33 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+8
Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d6)
Full Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Improved multi-weapon fighting, engulf, crush 6d6
Special Qualities: True polymorph, darkvision 60 ft., ooze qualities
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +8
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: 18
Feats: 3

Environment: Any temperate land and underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often chaotic neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Large); 13-18 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: ---

Shade mentioned the ghauanadan, and Gothenem mentioned switching darkvision for blindsight, which we could do as so:

Blindsight (Ex): As an oozelike creature, a protein polymorph has no eyes, but its whole body acts as a sensory organ, allowing it to perceive its environment out to a range of 60 feet.

rather than giving it "ooze qualities", i'd rather borrow something else from the gibbering mouther:

Amorphous (Ex): A protein polymorph is not subject to critical hits. It cannot be flanked.

i think upping that Str score and/or the slam damage is a good idea, since it is Large and in 1E/2E it could do 6d6 damage!




			
				Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> Protein polymorphs are intelligent cellular colonies with the ability to assume any form they choose. They may take the form of inanimate objects or animate creatures of 8 or fewer hit dice (depending on the size of the protein polymorph – 6, 7, or 8 hit dice). The form assumed may actually be that of several forms connected by a near-invisible (10% chance of detection) cord or film of protoplasm. The cells of the protein polymorph may specialize or de-specialize at will, taking on different textures and colours, changing completely in only one round.
> 
> These 'creatures' are extremely versatile. They may imitate anything from a pile of treasure to a small-sized room, to a party of half a dozen humans or a dozen kobolds. They will, in general, assume any form likely to draw prey, for they feed on humans and animals with little regard for type and size. They may even mix inanimate objects within their structure to add authenticity - a room or a corridor may, for instance, be part stone and part protein polymorph. Imitated creatures may wear real clothing and wield real weapons (often acquired from previous victims).
> 
> ...






			
				Dungeons of Despair said:
			
		

> A protein polymorph can assume the form of any inanimate object or animate creature with hit dice equal to or fewer than its own (depending on the size of the protein polymorph -- 6, 7, or 8 Hit Dice). The form assumed may actually be that of several forms connected by a near-invisible (10% chance of detection) cord or film of protoplasm. The cells of the protein polymorph may specialize or despecialize at will, taking on different textures and colors, changing completely in one round. Protein polymorphs retain their own hit dice, hit points, and THAC0 while adapting the imitated creatures' armor class, number of attacks, and damage per attack. They possess the normal strengths of imitated creatures, but not those creatures' special abilities. Thus, a polymorph assuming the form of a giant bird cannot fly, and one assuming the form of a giant spider cannot inject poison or spin webs.
> 
> The polymorph is extremely versatile. It can imitate anything from a pile of treasure to a small-sized room, to a party of half a dozen humans or a dozen kobolds. The polymorph will, in general, assume a form likely to draw prey; it feeds on humans and animals with little regard for type and size. A polymorph might even mix inanimate objects within its structure to add authenticity -- a room or a corridor may, for instance, be part-stone and part protein polymorph. Imitated creatures may wear real clothing and wield real weapons (often acquired from previous victims).
> 
> ...




for erica's writeup, this yields the following.  this ability will probably require a ton of work.  

True Polymorph (Ex): A protein polymorph can assume the appearance of nearly anything roughly approximating its own size. It can flatten itself out to a thickness of 1 inch and cover a square with sides 3 times its Face in length. It can also form multiple creatures and objects, each connected by a barely visible thread of protoplasm. When it is using this tactic, it requires a Spot check (DC 25) to detect the thread. When it forms multiple objects, each must remain within a number of feet equal to three times its face. It can form 1 object of its own size, or 1 object of one size category less than itself for every two hit dice it possesses. If it forms objects two size categories less than itself or smaller, it can make two such objects per hit die. For example, a 6 HD protein polymorph can make one Large object, up to six Medium-size objects, and up to 12 Small or smaller objects. Regardless of the appearance the multiple objects, the protein polymorph can only deal slam damage and its armor class does not change. Thus, even if the protein polymorph transforms into six human warriors in plate mail wielding greatswords, its armor class does not change and it still deals only slam damage. 

When it is in the form of an inanimate object, a Search or Spot check (DC 20) is required to detect the ruse. Any intelligent creature that touches a protein polymorph in any form automatically detects the ruse, as the protein polymorph cannot truly emulate texture and hardness. A protein polymorph that adopts the form of a living creature cannot accurately emulate emotions or voices, and with only a few rounds of interaction a Sense Motive check (DC 15) will detect the ruse.

A protein polymorph can only assume the appearance of creatures and objects; it does not gain any of the special abilities of the emulated creature.

Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting (Ex): Because any part the cellular mass that makes up a protein polymorph can act more or less independently, a protein polymorph that takes on the form of multiple objects can strike with its full melee bonus for each form.



			
				Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> The normal attack of a protein polymorph is to bludgeon its prey and then enfold and crush it, inflicting 6-36 hit points of damage per round.






			
				Dungeons of Despair said:
			
		

> The normal attack of a protein polymorph in its natural state is to bludgeon its prey and then enfold and crush it, inflicting 6-36 hp damage per round.




this is how Erica handled the creature's main attack form - basically a modified version of i think the gelatinous cube's attack.  i'm thinking the creature would have to change back into ooze form to use it, though.  also, the crush attack is probably better as a constrict.  thoughts?

Engulf (Ex): A protein polymorph can simply mow down Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The protein polymorph merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the protein polymorph, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt opportunity attacks must succeed at a Reflex save (DC 14) or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the protein polymorph moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the protein polymorph’s crush attack, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body.

A protein polymorph that has engulfed an opponent cannot change its shape in any way for as long as it holds the opponent inside.

Crush (Ex): A protein polymorph deals 6d6 points of damage per round to engulfed opponents.


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Shade mentioned the ghauanadan, and Gothenem mentioned switching darkvision for blindsight, which we could do as so:
> 
> Blindsight (Ex): As an oozelike creature, a protein polymorph has no eyes, but its whole body acts as a sensory organ, allowing it to perceive its environment out to a range of 60 feet.




Perfecto!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> rather than giving it "ooze qualities", i'd rather borrow something else from the gibbering mouther:
> 
> Amorphous (Ex): A protein polymorph is not subject to critical hits. It cannot be flanked.




Here's how the new Juiblex handles it:

Amorphous (Ex): Bludgeoning weapons and impact damage deal no damage to Juiblex. He is able to slip through spaces that otherwise could accommodate a creature no larger than Tiny because of his jellylike substance.

Ooze Traits: Although Juiblex is not technically an ooze, he has all of the traits common to oozes (MM 313).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i think upping that Str score and/or the slam damage is a good idea, since it is Large and in 1E/2E it could do 6d6 damage!




Agreed.  Here's the Str of some similar Large creatures for comparison:

Mimic - 19
Lava ooze - 19
Ochre jelly - 15
Shadow jelly - 15
Creeping stone - 18
White pudding - 15
Conflagration ooze - 23
Void ooze - 20
Obsidian ooze - 20

I'd suggest somewhere in the 20-22 range.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> for erica's writeup, this yields the following.  this ability will probably require a ton of work.




Too much work to wrap my mind around this early.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Sep 27, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here's how the new Juiblex handles it:
> 
> Amorphous (Ex): Bludgeoning weapons and impact damage deal no damage to Juiblex. He is able to slip through spaces that otherwise could accommodate a creature no larger than Tiny because of his jellylike substance.
> 
> Ooze Traits: Although Juiblex is not technically an ooze, he has all of the traits common to oozes (MM 313).




eh, we can work with that...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd suggest somewhere in the 20-22 range.




i can go with 20.  it's definitely going to need some Strength, especially if its main attack is by grappling!



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Too much work to wrap my mind around this early.




you said it.  we'll work on that aspect last.

speaking of the grappling though, how does the comparison hold out above?


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2006)

Rereading the original info, I'd say that improved grab/constrict definitely workes better in this case than engulf/crush.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Sep 27, 2006)

i'm trying to make something out of this.  i'm not so sure i want the PP to be immune to bludgeoning/impact damage.  i don't think i saw anything in the old text that contradicts the "slipping through small spaces" asepct.  as for the ooze traits, if we're going with that i'd rather spell it out than just say "see the MM".

Amorphous (Ex): A protein polymorph is not subject to critical hits. It cannot be flanked.

Amorphous (Ex): Bludgeoning weapons and impact damage deal no damage to Juiblex. He is able to slip through spaces that otherwise could accommodate a creature no larger than Tiny because of his jellylike substance.

Ooze Traits: Although a protein polymorph is not technically an ooze, it has all of the traits common to oozes, including immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Rereading the original info, I'd say that improved grab/constrict definitely workes better in this case than engulf/crush.




probably true.  now, the question is, how much damage should the slam/constrict do?  it was originally 6-36 (6d6), so that was plenty.  the Str of 19 with the 1 1/2 damage gives it a +7 to damage, so that shaves some of it off.  would 5d6+7 be too much?

Constrict (Ex): A protein polymorph deals automatic slam damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a protein polymorph must hit with its slam attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.


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## Shade (Sep 27, 2006)

A teratomorph, a Gargantuan CR 16 ooze deals 4d6 with its slam.  Most Large oozes do only 1d8.  Black puddings do 2d6, and elder black puddings do 3d6.

Other ways of stating amorphous:

Amorphous (Ex): A gibbering mouther is not subject to critical hits. It cannot be flanked.

Amorphous (Ex): An alkilith is not subject to flanking or critical hits. It is immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and polymorphing.

Amorphous (Ex): The gelatinous body of a xorbeast protects it from attacks against vital organs. Any critical hit or sneak attack against a xorbeast has a 50% chance of dealing damage as a normal attack.

Oozlike Immunities (Ex): Ghaunadans share many of the immunities of oozes, though they do have minds and Intelligence scores. They are immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and polymorphing. They are not subject to critical hits, and cannot be flanked. These immunities apply in both humanoid and ooze form.

I know there are more.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 27, 2006)

Since the protein polymorph is all oozy, immune to critical hits and flanking is definately appropriate, as opposed to the 50% of the xorbeast (I used this because they have some structure, but it's protected, ala fortification). 

Should they have the ooze immunities to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning and polymorph? Since they themselves can polymorph, if we give them the shapechanger subtype (which seems reasonable), they can just change back as an action if polymorphed, so immunity seems redundant. 

Demiurge out.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 27, 2006)

indeed.

i'll go with 3d6 for the slam damage.


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2006)

I just noticed the much-maligned phasm has the following:

Amorphous (Ex): A phasm in its natural form has immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning effects. It is not subject to critical hits and, having no clear front or back, cannot be flanked.

I agree with Demiurge that the immunity to polymorph seems a tad redundant.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Sep 27, 2006)

that's perfect.


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## BOZ (Sep 29, 2006)

posted in homebrews.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2006)

I'm wondering if for the polymorph ability we can't just modify the latest version of shapechange to allow for multiple creatures and the ability to take the form of an object?



> This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 50 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.
> 
> You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.
> 
> You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Sep 29, 2006)

that's a possibility, with some "polymorph any object" thrown in for good measure.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> that's a possibility, with some "polymorph any object" thrown in for good measure.




Sounds good.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 2, 2006)

i'll try to work that up this afternoon.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2006)

Good luck!


----------



## BOZ (Oct 2, 2006)

thanks!    i think i did a decent job.  rather than having it take the form of inanimate objects, i thought why not let it take the form of animate objects (as per the spell/MM) which can lie still to look like inanimate objects.

here is attempt #1:

A protein polymorph can assume the form of any nonunique creature from Fine to Colossal size?.  The new form may be of any creature type, though the protein polymorph retains the type and subtype of its original form.  The assumed form cannot have more Hit Dice than the protein polymorph's Hit Dice.

It loses the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes?, and extraordinary special attacks of its original form, and gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes? (except flight? just burrowing, climbing, walking, and swimming?), and extraordinary special attacks? of its new form.  It retains the special qualities of its original form and does not gain any spell-like abilities, supernatural attacks, or special qualities of its new form.  It gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form and retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form (OR, retains the ability scores of its original form?). It retains its hit points, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.  It cannot assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.

It can become just about anything it is familiar with. It can change form once each round as a free? action. The change takes place either immediately before its regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. The protein polymorph acquires the physical qualities of the new form, including extremities such as wings or extra limbs.  It can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under the protein polymorph's control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. It is effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. However, a protein polymorph cannot accurately copy facial expressions nor effectively duplicate the sounds of speech, and gains no special bonus on Disguise checks to imitate a certain type of creature.

A protein polymorph can assume the form of an animated object, of any type.  It cannot be made into a magic item with this ability. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron, silver, or adamantine in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.  It can assume the form of many Tiny or smaller objects as if the objects had the swarm subtype.  The creature can pretend to be an inanimate object by lying still, however any intelligent creature touching it will instantly realize it is alive (not sure how to say that part). A creature can detect a disguised protein polymorph on a successful DC 20? (Search? or) Spot check.

A protein polymorph may also assume more than one form at the same time, from Fine to Colossal size?.  It can take on any number of forms, though the assumed forms cannot have more total Hit Dice than the protein polymorph's Hit Dice.  The forms are connected by a cord or film of protoplasm that a creature can detect on a successful DC 25? Spot check.  Each form acts on the protein polymorph's initiative, and has the same base attack bonus.  All creatures are part of the protein polymorph, and have the same base save bonuses, Constitution score and hit points; the protein polymorph loses hit points when any of its forms is hit, and all its forms die when the protein polymorph is killed.  Each form has its own natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, extraordinary special attacks, Strength, and Dexterity scores, as described above.  Because any part of the cellular mass that makes up a protein polymorph can act independently, a protein polymorph's  multiple forms can each use its their primary attack forms with the full attack bonus.  Each form must remain within X feet of another.


----------



## Shade (Oct 3, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> thanks!    i think i did a decent job.  rather than having it take the form of inanimate objects, i thought why not let it take the form of animate objects (as per the spell/MM) which can lie still to look like inanimate objects.




An excellent job, in fact.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A protein polymorph can assume the form of any nonunique creature from Fine to Colossal size?.  The new form may be of any creature type, though the protein polymorph retains the type and subtype of its original form.  The assumed form cannot have more Hit Dice than the protein polymorph's Hit Dice.




I think it's fine to go up to Colossal size (it could stretch itself real thin).  It's not likely that it's going to find a low-HD Colossal creature, anyhow.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> It loses the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes?, and extraordinary special attacks of its original form, and gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes? (except flight? just burrowing, climbing, walking, and swimming?), and extraordinary special attacks? of its new form.  It retains the special qualities of its original form and does not gain any spell-like abilities, supernatural attacks, or special qualities of its new form.  It gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form and retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form (OR, retains the ability scores of its original form?). It retains its hit points, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.  It cannot assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.




I'd stick with the latest form of polymorph, and retain mental stats while gaining physical stats, and it should acquire all movement modes of the new form.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> It can become just about anything it is familiar with. It can change form once each round as a free? action. The change takes place either immediately before its regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. The protein polymorph acquires the physical qualities of the new form, including extremities such as wings or extra limbs.  It can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under the protein polymorph's control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. It is effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. However, a protein polymorph cannot accurately copy facial expressions nor effectively duplicate the sounds of speech, and gains no special bonus on Disguise checks to imitate a certain type of creature.




Make it a swift action, which is essentially a free action limited to once per round.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A protein polymorph can assume the form of an animated object, of any type.  It cannot be made into a magic item with this ability. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron, silver, or adamantine in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.  It can assume the form of many Tiny or smaller objects as if the objects had the swarm subtype.  The creature can pretend to be an inanimate object by lying still, however any intelligent creature touching it will instantly realize it is alive (not sure how to say that part). A creature can detect a disguised protein polymorph on a successful DC 20? (Search? or) Spot check.




Should it acquire the hardness of an object?  It's still "fleshy", right?  In that case, I'd say no.   As for realizing it's a living thing, perhaps it feels like flesh, or someone touching it can feel its pulse?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A protein polymorph may also assume more than one form at the same time, from Fine to Colossal size?.  It can take on any number of forms, though the assumed forms cannot have more total Hit Dice than the protein polymorph's Hit Dice.  The forms are connected by a cord or film of protoplasm that a creature can detect on a successful DC 25? Spot check.  Each form acts on the protein polymorph's initiative, and has the same base attack bonus.  All creatures are part of the protein polymorph, and have the same base save bonuses, Constitution score and hit points; the protein polymorph loses hit points when any of its forms is hit, and all its forms die when the protein polymorph is killed.  Each form has its own natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, extraordinary special attacks, Strength, and Dexterity scores, as described above.  Because any part of the cellular mass that makes up a protein polymorph can act independently, a protein polymorph's  multiple forms can each use its their primary attack forms with the full attack bonus.  Each form must remain within X feet of another.




This part is a bit problematic.  Since it takes on the physical ability scores of the new form, which Constitution score is it sharing?  The highest?  Since (like alter self/polymorph/shapechange) it retains the hit points, base attack bonus, and base saves of its original form, is it even necessary to mention that?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 3, 2006)

*A little off topic*



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should it acquire the hardness of an object?  It's still "fleshy", right?  In that case, I'd say no.   As for realizing it's a living thing, perhaps it feels like flesh, or someone touching it can feel its pulse?



That's why I dislike 'hardness'. IMHO it would have been better (and more consistent) to give objects Damage Reduction like creatures.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> That's why I dislike 'hardness'. IMHO it would have been better (and more consistent) to give objects Damage Reduction like creatures.




I don't even mind hardness, but I do dislike that they gave it to animated objects...while golems have damage reduction.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 3, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I don't even mind hardness, but I do dislike that they gave it to animated objects...while golems have damage reduction.



Hardness X is pretty much the same as DR X/-, a value that subtracts from the damage dealt. So why bother with two terms?

Normal service will now be resumed...

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Hardness X is pretty much the same as DR X/-, a value that subtracts from the damage dealt. So why bother with two terms?
> 
> Normal service will now be resumed...




Mainly because energy effects work differently on hardness.   Of course, they could simply have given various objects resistance to energy...


----------



## Mortis (Oct 3, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Mainly because energy effects work differently on hardness.   Of course, they could simply have given various objects resistance to energy...



Ooohh!!! Now don't get me started on Acid as an energy. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Oct 3, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> An excellent job, in fact.




thanks!  it wasn't easy.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I think it's fine to go up to Colossal size (it could stretch itself real thin).  It's not likely that it's going to find a low-HD Colossal creature, anyhow.




cool.  and yes, there aren't a great deal of 6-HD Colossal creatures.    now, of course, when you advance it, you might just be able to find a 18-HD Colossal creature to replicate... but that's a higher CR protein polymorph anyway.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd stick with the latest form of polymorph, and retain mental stats while gaining physical stats, and it should acquire all movement modes of the new form.




i was unclear mostly because the old text specifically said the PP would not be able to fly.  if it's simply easier to allow flight, i suppose we can.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Make it a swift action, which is essentially a free action limited to once per round.




no problem.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should it acquire the hardness of an object?  It's still "fleshy", right?  In that case, I'd say no.   As for realizing it's a living thing, perhaps it feels like flesh, or someone touching it can feel its pulse?




well, here's the deal on that.  hardness, as given in the MM, is a special quality, and we have already established that the PP cannot copy SQs.  why should it take on hardness if it doesn't take on DR?    saying that a PP feels "fleshy" should solve that problem.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> This part is a bit problematic.  Since it takes on the physical ability scores of the new form, which Constitution score is it sharing?  The highest?  Since (like alter self/polymorph/shapechange) it retains the hit points, base attack bonus, and base saves of its original form, is it even necessary to mention that?




whoops!  i meant to say that the PP has only one Con score no matter how many forms it has taken.  i'd go with the highest Con score available.  while it retains the base attack bonus and base saves, those can be modified by changing ability scores.  when we're saying it retains the hit points, does that mean a Con increase does not give extra HP?  if not, then perhaps it still raises the Fort save?


----------



## Shade (Oct 3, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> thanks!  it wasn't easy.




I'm sure it wasn't!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> cool.  and yes, there aren't a great deal of 6-HD Colossal creatures.    now, of course, when you advance it, you might just be able to find a 18-HD Colossal creature to replicate... but that's a higher CR protein polymorph anyway.




Indeed.    




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i was unclear mostly because the old text specifically said the PP would not be able to fly.  if it's simply easier to allow flight, i suppose we can.




I think it would be easier, and not really harm the original intent of the critter.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> well, here's the deal on that.  hardness, as given in the MM, is a special quality, and we have already established that the PP cannot copy SQs.  why should it take on hardness if it doesn't take on DR?    saying that a PP feels "fleshy" should solve that problem.




Great!  Problem solved.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> whoops!  i meant to say that the PP has only one Con score no matter how many forms it has taken.  i'd go with the highest Con score available.  while it retains the base attack bonus and base saves, those can be modified by changing ability scores.  when we're saying it retains the hit points, does that mean a Con increase does not give extra HP?  if not, then perhaps it still raises the Fort save?




Per Rules of the Game:



			
				Skip Williams said:
			
		

> Because the change in form doesn't change the creature's Wisdom score (see previous point), the creature's Will save bonus doesn't change. Changes to the creature's Constitution and Dexterity scores, however, might change its Fortitude and Reflex save bonuses. Changes to the creature's Strength score affect its melee attack bonus. Changes to the creature's Dexterity score change its ranged attack bonus.
> 
> Despite any change in its Constitution score, a change in form through the alternate form power does not change the creature's hit points. This feature of alternate form mostly serves to speed play. It also underscores the notion that the change in form doesn't alter the creature's fundamental identity.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 3, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think it would be easier, and not really harm the original intent of the critter.




i suppose not; at least, not by much.  flight can make a huge difference in the right situations.  but i can live with it.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Per Rules of the Game:




OK, that makes sense.  since it already states in the text that hit points remain the same, we can still say that the creature has a single Con score (regardless of the number of forms) so that any Con save failed affects the whole creature.  let me rewrite that a little for clarity:

A protein polymorph can assume the form of any nonunique creature from Fine to Colossal size.  The new form may be of any creature type, though the protein polymorph retains the type and subtype of its original form.  The assumed form cannot have more Hit Dice than the protein polymorph's Hit Dice.

It loses the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its original form, and gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks? of its new form.  It retains the special qualities of its original form and does not gain any spell-like abilities, supernatural attacks, or special qualities of its new form.  It gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form and retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. It retains its hit points, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.  It cannot assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.

It can become just about anything it is familiar with. It can change form once each round as a swift action. The change takes place either immediately before its regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. The protein polymorph acquires the physical qualities of the new form, including extremities such as wings or extra limbs.  It can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under the protein polymorph's control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. It is effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. However, a protein polymorph cannot accurately copy facial expressions nor effectively duplicate the sounds of speech, and gains no special bonus on Disguise checks to imitate a certain type of creature.

A protein polymorph can assume the form of an animated object, of any type.  It cannot be made into a magic item with this ability. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron, silver, or adamantine in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.  It can assume the form of many Tiny or smaller objects as if the objects had the swarm subtype.  The creature can pretend to be an inanimate object by lying still, however touching the protein polymorph reveals its fleshy texture immediately.. A creature can detect a disguised protein polymorph on a successful DC 20? (Search? or) Spot check.

A protein polymorph may also assume more than one form at the same time, from Fine to Colossal size.  It can take on any number of forms, though the assumed forms cannot have more total Hit Dice than the protein polymorph's Hit Dice.  The forms are connected by a cord or film of protoplasm that another creature can detect on a successful DC 25? Spot check.  Each form must remain within X feet of another.  Each form has its own natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, extraordinary special attacks, and Strength and Dexterity scores, as described above.  All creatures are part of the protein polymorph, and a protein polymorph moves and attacks with each form on the same initiative.  Each form uses the protein polymorph's Constitution score or any Constitution score of any of its forms, whichever is highest.  Each form also uses the protein polymorph's hit points, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.  Because any part of the cellular mass that makes up a protein polymorph can act independently, a protein polymorph's  multiple forms can each use their primary attack forms with the full attack bonus.  A protein polymorph loses hit points when any of its forms is hit, and all its forms die when the protein polymorph is killed.


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> The creature can pretend to be an inanimate object by lying still, however touching the protein polymorph reveals its fleshy texture immediately.. A creature can detect a disguised protein polymorph on a successful DC 20? (Search? or) Spot check.




I'd use this from the mimic's Mimic Shape ability...

A mimic’s body is hard and has a rough texture, no matter what appearance it might present. Anyone who examines the mimic can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the mimic’s Disguise check. Of course, by this time it is generally far too late.

Note that a mimic has a +8 racial bonus on Disguise checks.  Perhaps we can do the same for PP?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The forms are connected by a cord or film of protoplasm that another creature can detect on a successful DC 25? Spot check.  Each form must remain within X feet of another.




DC 25 Spot check works for me.  I'd say the forms should be within 30 feet of another.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 4, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Note that a mimic has a +8 racial bonus on Disguise checks.  Perhaps we can do the same for PP?




well...



			
				Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> There are limits to the protein polymorph's degree of cellular control - it cannot accurately copy facial expressions, nor can it effectively duplicate the sound of speech. These limitations may lead to the exposure of the imposture as animate creatures.




i took that to mean this:

"However, a protein polymorph cannot accurately copy facial expressions nor effectively duplicate the sounds of speech, and gains no special bonus on Disguise checks to imitate a certain type of creature."


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> well...
> 
> i took that to mean this:
> 
> "However, a protein polymorph cannot accurately copy facial expressions nor effectively duplicate the sounds of speech, and gains no special bonus on Disguise checks to imitate a certain type of creature."




Right...but the mimic's racial bonus didn't arise from its change shape ability, like doppelgangers and others, and wasn't the normal +10.   Rather, it was a special racial bonus.  I thought it would be appropriate in this case.

If we're going to stick with Disguise as the mechanic for its camouflage, I'd recommend giving it Skill Focus (Disguise).


----------



## BOZ (Oct 4, 2006)

ah, i didn't catch that...

well, max ranks would be 9, Cha bonus is +1, and Skill Focus would make it +13, equal to the mimic.  doesn't need to be higher than that, as the disguise doesn't have to be super effective.  

it would have 9 ranks left after that.  i recommend at least 3 ranks each in Listen and Spot, and Alertness as another feat.


----------



## Shade (Oct 5, 2006)

That all makes sense.  For the third feat, I'm thinking either Power Attack or Great Fortitude.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Oct 5, 2006)

do we want it to be able to copy its foes extraordinary special attacks?  while it would be great to take certain abilities, this would also invclude things like poison and even things like the mind flayer's brain-eatin.


----------



## Shade (Oct 5, 2006)

I don't see why not.  If creatures like the doppelganger and phasm can do it, I think the ProPoly should as well.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 5, 2006)

i guess so, but i don't like it.    that's a big part of why the war troll causes so much trouble with polymorphing, isn't it?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 5, 2006)

heh, anyway... updating.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2006)

What are we missing, other than deciding on the third feat?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 5, 2006)

that, and the three remaining skill ranks.  weight?

i'll check my notes later to see if there's anything else i missed.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2006)

Its original size was "L (12' tall or wide)".  Looking at the most similar creatures:

A mimic (Large) can have almost any dimensions, but usually is not more than 10 feet long. A typical mimic has a volume of 150 cubic feet (5 feet by 5 feet by 6 feet) and weighs about 4,500 pounds. 

A phasm (Medium) in its natural form is about 5 feet in diameter and 2 feet high at the center. Swirls of color indicate sensory organs. In this form, a phasm slithers about like an ooze and can attack with a pseudopod. It weighs about 400 pounds.

So maybe....

A protein polymorph can have almost any dimensions, but usually is not more than 12 feet long. A typical protein polymorph has weighs about 6,000 pounds. 

The remaining 3 skill ranks could go into Search or Survival.  Maybe Track would make a better 3rd feat choice, since "protein polymorphs are voracious hunters and must devour food regularly to provide the necessary nutrients", and it is as intelligent as an average human?


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## Mortis (Oct 6, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> The remaining 3 skill ranks could go into Search or Survival.  Maybe Track would make a better 3rd feat choice, since "protein polymorphs are voracious hunters and must devour food regularly to provide the necessary nutrients", and it is as intelligent as an average human?



Another skill option would be Climb with possibly Stealthy as the third feat.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Another skill option would be Climb with possibly Stealthy as the third feat.tis




True, although it could just take a form with a climb speed and get a free +8 racial bonus in the process.


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## BOZ (Oct 6, 2006)

good point - i'll go with Survival and Track then.  

updating...


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2006)

I think that'll do it.   Wow...that one wasn't nearly as difficult as I'd expected!


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## BOZ (Oct 6, 2006)

it helped that Erica did a lot of the work already - i posted a link in that NG thread, so maybe some folks will show up to take a look.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

You can cut a few of these from the list:

*Celts – TSR 9376 (1992)*
Fachan - Didn't we do this one?

*Night Below – TSR 1125 (1995)*
Elf, Rockseer - done
Golem, Shaboath - Lords of Madness
Ixitxachitl, Ixzan - Lost Empires of Faerun

*The Sea Devils – TSR 9539 (1997)*
Nawidnehr - done

*Axe of the Dwarvish Lords – TSR 11347 (1999)*
The Abomination of Diirinka - done

*Return to White Plume Mountain – TSR 11434 (1999)*
Elevated Ghoul - Isn't this the same as the true ghoul in a recent Dungeon?
Vampire Moss - done in Dragon query


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## Gothenem (Nov 29, 2006)

Ixitxachitl, Ixzan

This creature is in Lost Empires of Faerûn.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

We haven't visited this thread in quite awhile.

*Tether Beast*
Climate/Terrain:  Demiplane of Time
Frequency:  Rare
Organization:  Family
Activity Cycle:  Any
Diet:  Omnivorous
Intelligence:  Very (11)
Treasure:  I
Alignment:  Neutral evil
# App:  1-3
AC: 0
Movement:  12
HD:  10+2
THAC0:  11
# Att:  5 (four claws, 1 bite)
Dmg/Att:  2d6/2d6/2d6/2d6/2d4
SA:  Breath weapon
SD:  Hit only by +1 or better magic weapon
MR:  25%
Size:  H (20' long)
Morale:  Average (10)
XP:  15,000

The tether beast is often referred to as the dragon of the Demiplane of Time, but in fact, it more closely resembles a behir.  It is long and snake-like, with four pairs of legs unevenly space along its body.  The legs are much longer than a behir's, but they are normally kept tucked up close to the body, giving the (sometimes fatal) illusion of the beast having a short reach.  Its back and legs are covered with iridescent scales, and its underside features a softer, black skin.  The head is reptilian with a snout filled with dagger-like teeth.  These creatures exist only on the Demiplane of Time.

Combat:  Tether beasts prefer to attack their intended victims from ambush, if possible, but they attack even if they are the ones surprised--or if they're wounded, or being offered an appeasement, or if they're hungry or full.  Basically, they are happy to attack anyone at any time for any reason--or even no reason at all.

In combat, the creature continues to hold on to nearby lifelines with at least four claws while attacking with all of its other four limbs, plus its savage bite.  It can attack in any direction it wishes with its claws, and the long reach of its arms puts it into melee range even against opponents armed with polearms.  For opponents who devise an attack method just out of reach, the tether beast grabs hold of the lifeline tightly with its back four claws and whips the entire upper half of its body out toward its intended victim, raking with all five attacks.  A creature may try to force one of the beast's four lifeline claws away from the lifeline.  Whether or not it is successful, the only result is that the tether beast turns on that creature with every attack, including an extra claw attack from the limb that the victim just freed.

Anytime after the first combat round, if the tether beast does not seem to be winning the engagement, it uses a breath weapon attack that has a range of 30 feet and can be directed against one creature only.  The breath weapon appears to be composed of the mist-smoke of the Demiplane of Time, but any creature it hits must save vs. death magic.  A failure results in the character rapidly aging to the point that he crumbles into dust.  A success means that the adventurer only ages 20 years (check the maximum lifespan of the race to determine the effects).

Tether beasts are smart enough to know that humans are excellent targets for this breath weapon, and they do not mind using it against them when possible, since the tether beasts seemingly can gain almost as much nourishment from the leftover pile of dust.  This breath weapon can be used once every 10 rounds.

Habitat/Society:  A tether beast has no lair.  It is always on the move.  These beasts frequently travel in pairs, and if a third beast is present, it is usually a young offspring of the two larger ones.  The offspring has 6+1 Hit Dice and proportionately weaker abilities.

The tether beast (or the largest of the group) stores treasure within several hidden pouches that can be found within the softer area of its underside.  Large items of obvious value, or any magical item it might have, are dragged along in one claw.  Tether beasts have a 10% chance of being able to use a magical item.  Otherwise that claw is considered nonuseful for attacks or movements.

Though it is assumed that the tether beast can travel like other creatures on the Demiplane of Time (by walking, or floating along), it always crawls along the lifelines with at least four of its claws wrapped about one of the silver cables.  Now and then, it seizes a lifeline in its mouth and gnaws at it with its vicious teeth, but no damage is known to be caused to the lifeline's possessor.  Some adventurers that have been contacted by chronomancers about these incidents have reported that, at the time in question, they sensed a chilling effect, similar to the old saying of someone walking across their grave, but no apparent physical harm was done to them or their lifeline.

Ecology:  The tether beast is far and away the fiercest hunter on the Demiplane of Time.  It attacks and eats anything it happens to come across, from tempsynth to temporal gliders, and apparently chronomancers rank high atop the list of their favorite foods.  A tether beast that finds the silver mist trail of a Demiplane of Time traveler follows it until the trail disappears or the adventurer is found.

Source:  Chronomancer, Monstrous Compendium Annual 3


----------



## dhaga (Oct 25, 2007)

Huge Outsider
DR at least 10/magic
SR of some level
Breath Weapon -- should this be a breath weapon, or be turned into a special ability that uses ranged touch?  I wonder, because it states single target in the description.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

Hmmm...Magical Beast (Extraplanar) seems more appropriate.

Since it seems to be modeled off the behir, here's the relevant bits:

Behir
Huge Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 9d10+45 (94 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 15 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+25
Attack: Bite +15 melee (2d4+12)
Full Attack: Bite +15 melee (2d4+12)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, constrict 2d8+8, improved grab, rake 1d4+4, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Can’t be tripped, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +5
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 12
Skills: Climb +16, Hide +5, Listen +4, Spot +4, Survival +2
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Power Attack, Track
Environment: Warm hills
Organization:: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often neutral
Advancement: 10–13 HD (Huge); 14–27 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: --

A behir is about 40 feet long and weighs about 4,000 pounds. 

Behirs speak Common.

Combat

Breath Weapon (Su): 20-foot line, once every 10 rounds, damage 7d6 electricity, Reflex DC 19 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Constrict (Ex): A behir deals 2d8+8 points of damage with a successful grapple check. It can make six rake attacks against a grappled foe as well.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a behir must hit a creature of any size with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

If it wins the grapple check, it it establishes a hold and can attempt to constrict the opponent or swallow the opponent in the following round.

Rake (Ex): Six claws, attack bonus +15 melee, damage 1d4+4.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A behir can try to swallow a grabbed Medium or smaller opponent by making a successful grapple check.

A behir that swallows an opponent can use its Cleave feat to bite and grab another opponent.

A swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the behir’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 15). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A behir’s gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.

Skills: Behirs have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.


----------



## freyar (Oct 25, 2007)

Magical Beast (Extraplanar) also makes sense to me.  I'd think the breath weapon should probably change to a ranged touch attack, too.


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## dhaga (Oct 25, 2007)

Magical Beast (Extraplanar) works for me.
Can probably steal some of the behir's Ex abilities, too, if we'd like: Improved Grab and Rake, at least.  The Tether Beast likes to keep a hold on that lifeline, so I'm not sure Constrict is a good match.  We could take Swallow Whole, however...


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Magical Beast (Extraplanar) works for me.
> Can probably steal some of the behir's Ex abilities, too, if we'd like: Improved Grab and Rake, at least.  The Tether Beast likes to keep a hold on that lifeline, so I'm not sure Constrict is a good match.  We could take Swallow Whole, however...




That sounds about right to me.  Maybe an exceptional reach with the claws, also.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

Note that the behir has no claw attacks unless as part of a rake.    

We can obviously add 4 claw attacks (with reach) to these fellas.  

Do we want to modify the behir's physical ability scores slightly to account for the tether beast's smaller size (although still Huge)?  Maybe half the usual difference to downsizing to Large from Huge (-4 Str, -2 Con, +2 natural armor)?


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## dhaga (Oct 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We can obviously add 4 claw attacks (with reach) to these fellas.
> 
> Do we want to modify the behir's physical ability scores slightly to account for the tether beast's smaller size (although still Huge)?  Maybe half the usual difference to downsizing to Large from Huge (-4 Str, -2 Con, +2 natural armor)?




Sounds like a good idea to me.  They'll already have reach for being huge; is there an "extended reach" ability?


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Sounds like a good idea to me.  They'll already have reach for being huge; is there an "extended reach" ability?




Basically, just give 'em more reach.    

(See dragon's bite attacks, etc.)


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Basically, just give 'em more reach.
> 
> (See dragon's bite attacks, etc.)




Like the dragon, let's specify the attack that gets the extra reach.  I do think we should give claw attacks separate from rake.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Like the dragon, let's specify the attack that gets the extra reach.  I do think we should give claw attacks separate from rake.




Agreed to all that.  We can keep the original damage, as it appears the behir followed its original 2d4 bite damage from 2e.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2007)

My take on the "breath weapon," which I'm changing to a ranged touch:

Aging Attack (Su): Every 10 rounds (?), a tether beast can make a ranged touch attack (max range 30' with no range increment), which appears to be a breath of mist.  This mist is actually made of the essence of the Demiplane of Time.  The target, if hit, must make a DC X Fort save or age instantly to death; a successful save means that the target ages by 20 years.

This probably needs work...


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 1, 2007)

You should probably note that anyone aged gains the drawbacks but not the benefits of entering a new age category.


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2007)

That's a good start.   

Attempt at a revision...

Time Mist (Su): Once per minute, a tether beast can breathe forth a puff of mist at a single target within 30 feet.  The tether beast must succeed on a ranged touch attack (no range increment). This mist contains the essence of the Demiplane of Time.  If the attack succeeds, the target must make a DC X Fort save or age instantly to death, crumbling to a pile of dust.  Even with a successful save, the target still ages 20 years.   The effects of time mist can only be reversed with a wish or miracle.  (??)   The save DC is Constitution-based?


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2007)

Time Mist looks good.  I'd make the DC Con based, and the wish or miracle reversal sounds good, too.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2007)

What shall we do with this?



			
				Monstrous Compendium Annual 3 said:
			
		

> For opponents who devise an attack method just out of reach, the tether beast grabs hold of the lifeline tightly with its back four claws and whips the entire upper half of its body out toward its intended victim, raking with all five attacks.




And this?



			
				Monstrous Compendium Annual 3 said:
			
		

> A creature may try to force one of the beast's four lifeline claws away from the lifeline.  Whether or not it is successful, the only result is that the tether beast turns on that creature with every attack, including an extra claw attack from the limb that the victim just freed.




And for this...



			
				Monstrous Compendium Annual 3 said:
			
		

> The tether beast (or the largest of the group) stores treasure within several hidden pouches that can be found within the softer area of its underside.  Large items of obvious value, or any magical item it might have, are dragged along in one claw.  Tether beasts have a 10% chance of being able to use a magical item.  Otherwise that claw is considered nonuseful for attacks or movements.




Use Magic Device ranks?   Mention the claw capable of fine manipulation in the flavor text?


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## dhaga (Nov 2, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> What shall we do with this?
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Monstrous Compendium Annual 3
> For opponents who devise an attack method just out of reach, the tether beast grabs hold of the lifeline tightly with its back four claws and whips the entire upper half of its body out toward its intended victim, raking with all five attacks.



I think we already took care of this by giving him extra reach.  He is only going to be able to reach so far.  If someone is using a bow or spells at a distance, this attack method would not work, anyway.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> And this?
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Monstrous Compendium Annual 3
> A creature may try to force one of the beast's four lifeline claws away from the lifeline. Whether or not it is successful, the only result is that the tether beast turns on that creature with every attack, including an extra claw attack from the limb that the victim just freed.




Extra flavor text, using most of the original text: if grappling with the tether beast, an opponent may make an opposed Strength check to force one of the beast's four lifeline claws away from the lifeline. Whether or not this check is successful, the only result is that the tether beast turns on that creature with every attack, including an extra claw attack from the limb that the victim just freed.

Should we make a decision on what happens if all 4 claws are forced from the lifeline, or leave that up to the DMs? (I'm for leaving it to the DMs for taking care of that hypothetical case).



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> And for this...
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Monstrous Compendium Annual 3
> ...




I think a few ranks in Use Magic Device would be the best way to handle this, coupled with flavor text that indicates the claw is capable of fine manipulation, as you stated.


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2007)

I'm agreed with Dhaga here.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

I'm with you guys.

Borrowing the behir's skills and adding UMD gives us...

Skills: Climb +x, Hide +x, Listen +x, Spot +x, Survival +x, Use Magic Device +x (26 total ranks)

Behir Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Power Attack, Track

Do we want to swap any of these out for something else?


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## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

Skills: Climb +7, Listen +7, Spot +7, Use Magic Device +5
Nix Hide and Survival, replace Track with...something.

Something (Ex): this creature has an additional feat.  Pick one.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

I like the Something ability.    



> Combat: Tether beasts *prefer to attack their intended victims from ambush*, if possible, but they attack even if they are the ones surprised--or if they're wounded, or being offered an appeasement, or if they're hungry or full. Basically, they are happy to attack anyone at any time for any reason--or even no reason at all.




I'm thinking Hide is worth keeping.  Maybe replace Climb with Move Silently?  (It still gets a +8 racial bonus on Climb due to its climb speed, and its Str gives it an additional +6).



> The tether beast is far and away the fiercest hunter on the Demiplane of Time. It attacks and eats anything it happens to come across, from tempsynth to temporal gliders, and apparently chronomancers rank high atop the list of their favorite foods. *A tether beast that finds the silver mist trail of a Demiplane of Time traveler follows it until the trail disappears or the adventurer is found*.




I'm not so sure Track should be dropped.


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2007)

If we keep Track, we should definitely keep Survival.   I agree with Shade, though, about the skills and feats.  I'd be happy with keeping the behir's feats.


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## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

Whoops, yeah.  Those look good, Shade.  Guess I should have re-read the description before getting rid of its ability to track its victims.  Hope it doesn't come looking for me...


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

How does this look?

Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Power Attack, Track
Skills: Climb +14, Hide +3, Listen +6, Move Silently +4, Spot +6, Survival +6, Use Magic Device +6


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

Looks fine.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

CR ?

Spell resistance 6 + CR would work out to 25%, like its previous MR.


----------



## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

My eyeball says a CR of 7 or 8 should work.  Your suggestion for SR sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

Behir is CR 8, and tether beast has one more HD and an (arguably) deadlier breath weapon.  So I'd say at least 8.


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

Let's go for CR9 then.  My eyeball is still pretty new at this.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

You're doing just fine.


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## dhaga (Nov 8, 2007)

I'll second the motion for CR 9.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> You're doing just fine.



Agreed!


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

A tether beast is about 20 feet long and weighs about x pounds. 

(A behir is about 40 feet long and weighs about 4,000 pounds)

Tether beasts speak ...

(Behirs speak Common)


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> A tether beast is about 20 feet long and weighs about x pounds.
> 
> (A behir is about 40 feet long and weighs about 4,000 pounds)
> 
> ...




Let's go with 2000 - 2500 lb.  For the language, it's too bad there's no Chronal or similar elemental language for time.  We could go with Common or Infernal/Abyssal given its alignment.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Nov 10, 2007)

Tether beasts look mostly done now, too. We're really knocking these off!


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## dhaga (Nov 12, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Tether beasts look mostly done now, too. We're really knocking these off!



Agreed.  This one looks good.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 13, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Agreed.  This one looks good.



Yup - add it to the pile

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

I found this one's stats posted while looking at the remaining unconverted stats, so figured we'd tackle it.

From AD&D 2nd Edition Trading Cards #606

*Carcavulp*
Armor Class: 4
THAC0: 15
Movement: 15
Hit Dice: 6 + 3
Alignment: Neutral Good
Size: M (4' tall, 6' long)
Intelligence: Low (5-7)
Combat: #AT 3 + special: Dmg 1-6/1-6/2-26; special attack is a bonus of +4 to attack and damage due to its strength and speed
Description: The carcavulp is a magically created creature combining the best attributes of the fox and wolverine. The creature has enlarged size, giving it greater muscle mass and strength. Carcavulps can be created to recognize a specific master.


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2007)

Medium Magical Beast?

Stats of component creatures:

Wolverine (M): Str 14, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10, +2 natural armor
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 10 ft., climb 10 ft
Fox (S):  Str 11, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7, +0 natural
Speed:  40 ft.

Taking the best of both yields:

Str 14, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10, +2 natural armor
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), burrow 10 ft., climb 10 ft


Both have scent.

Rage (Ex): A wolverine that takes damage in combat flies into a berserk rage on its next turn, clawing and biting madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and –2 to Armor Class. The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily.

Skills: Wolverines have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.


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## freyar (Nov 27, 2007)

I'd agree with the magical beast but mostly because of the Int.  Seems like you have a good start.  I guess the attacks are just 2 claws & a bite?  Otherwise, what do we need?  Skill ranks, feats, and maybe a language?


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I just noticed "Int: Low (5-7)".

Wolverine deals 1d4 (claw) and 1d6 (bite).

Original Carcavulp deals 1d6 (claw) and 2-26 (bite).

Granting it Improved Natural Attack as bonus feat on both forms yields:
1d6 (claw) and 1d8 (bite).

Perhaps we should give it a powerful bite ability?  For example...

Powerful Bite (Ex): A rhagodessa's bite is always a secondary attack, yet the powerful muscles in its jaws allow it to apply 1.5 times its Strength modifier to damage rolls with its bite.

Also...



> special attack is a bonus of +4 to attack and damage due to its strength and speed




Is rage sufficient for this, or should we give it an additional special ability?


----------



## freyar (Nov 28, 2007)

I say yes to Improved Natural Attack (or do we need that? Can't we just say that it has higher damage, leaving INA as a feat for monster customization?) and Powerful Bite.

I'd say rage would be sufficient, but I don't think rage has quite the right flavor for an intelligent NG creature.  Maybe find a way to end the rage sooner?


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I say yes to Improved Natural Attack (or do we need that? Can't we just say that it has higher damage, leaving INA as a feat for monster customization?) and Powerful Bite.




We can, although it is more of an exception than a rule nowadays.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I'd say rage would be sufficient, but I don't think rage has quite the right flavor for an intelligent NG creature.  Maybe find a way to end the rage sooner?




Looking at the original ability again...



> special attack is a bonus of +4 to attack and damage due to its strength and speed




Rather than rage, we could go with something like...

"Magically-Enhanced Weaponry" (Su):  A carcavulp's natural attacks are all treated as +4 magic weapons for all purposes.

Int 6?


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## freyar (Nov 28, 2007)

That special attack is really vague, huh?  I'm not sure I really like considering it magically enhanced, unless you really just mean +4 to attack and damage at all times.  I guess that's ok, though it's weird to think that it overcomes DRX/magic.  However, for lack of a better idea, let's go with what you have (maybe putting in some clarification) and call it maybe "Magical Natural Weapons."  Seems a little more clear.

Int 6 seems right.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> That special attack is really vague, huh?  I'm not sure I really like considering it magically enhanced, unless you really just mean +4 to attack and damage at all times.  I guess that's ok, though it's weird to think that it overcomes DRX/magic.  However, for lack of a better idea, let's go with what you have (maybe putting in some clarification) and call it maybe "Magical Natural Weapons."  Seems a little more clear.
> 
> Int 6 seems right.




I was thinking along the lines of an always active greater magic fang spell, or similar to the unicorn's horn.

Would it be better to just give them greater magic fang at will, with a caster level high enough to grant a +4 bonus?


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## freyar (Nov 28, 2007)

I think I'd go with the unicorn route.  Just say, "A carcavulp's natural weapons are +4 magic weapons, but their power fades if they are removed from the carcavulp."  Another route is to go with a different kind of bonus, so they don't overcome DRX/magic.  Something like "Exceptional Weaponry (Ex): Due to the carcavulp's well-designed anatomy, its natural weapons have a +4 racial bonus to attack and damage."  Or we could make it an enhancement bonus, if you want.  I guess I'm just not getting a magic feel from these guys mostly.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I guess I'm just not getting a magic feel from these guys mostly.




Heh.  I am.   



> The carcavulp is a magically created creature ...






> Carcavulps can be created ...


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## freyar (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm reading that, too, though I think that just applies to their creation as a hybrid.  Once that's done, though, they almost seem like animals (but too smart).   I could go either way.

Or what if the line just means that the STR bonus should be +4, so we should bump STR to 18-19?


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Or what if the line just means that the STR bonus should be +4, so we should bump STR to 18-19?




Simplicity for the win!


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

Updated.

Skills: 8 ranks
Fox Skills:  Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Swim
Wolverine Skills: Listen, Spot
Arctic Fox Skills: Hide +9*, Listen +4, Spot +4
Suggested:  Hide 1, Listen 3, Move Silently 1, Spot 3

Feats: 3
Wolverine Feats: Alertness, Toughness, Track (B)
Fox Feats:  None listed (3e)
Arctic Fox Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
Suggested:  Alertness, Multiattack, Power Attack, Track (B)


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## freyar (Nov 28, 2007)

I think your suggestions for skills and feats look pretty good.  I could even see dropping Hide and Move Silently completely.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

Environment: x
Organization: x

Wolverine:
Environment: Cold forests
Organization: Solitary

Fox:
None given (abbreviated statblock)

Arctic Fox:
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair

So maybe...

Environment: Cold forests and plains
Organization: Solitary or pair

Challenge Rating: x

It is slightly weaker than a tiger and brown bear at CR 4, and slightly tougher than a lion at CR 3.  I think it's probably closer to CR 3.


----------



## freyar (Nov 28, 2007)

Environment and organization look good.  Let's go with CR3.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

These fellas are nearly done.  I'll ask Echohawk if he's got a picture of these fellas.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2007)

Updated.   We're nearly finished.

Weight?

Dire weasels grow to be up to 10 feet long and can reach a weight of 700 pounds.

Since these guys are 4 feet shorter, but much beefier, maybe 700 pounds as well?


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## Mortis (Nov 30, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since these guys are 4 feet shorter, but much beefier, maybe 700 pounds as well?



Looks good

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2007)

I'd say we're done.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

*Xaren*
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 1 
MOVE: 9"
HIT DICE: 5+5 
% in Lair: 70%
TREASURE TYPE: See Below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3(x3)/4-16 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise on a 1-6
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to fire, cold attacks
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
SIZE: (4' tall) 
Psionics: Nil
XP VALUE: 65 + 8/hp

The xaren are relatives of the xorn.  They exist on the Elemental PLane of Earth but enjoy travel to the Prime Material Plane to feed.  Their favorite metals are iron, copper, silver, gold and electrum (in that order).  Magic metal gives them 1 hit point permanently for every plus on an eaten item.  Items that are not plus enchanted neither help nor harm a xaren unless they are aligned to harm neutral creatures.  This +1 to +5 for eating a shield, for example, is limited so that total hit points can never exceed 45.  Yet they will still crave magic metal and will be eager to obtain it.  They are intelligent enough to realize the relationship between magic metal and their health.

Xaren, like xorn, blend with rock-like surroundings and thus are very likely to surprise others in such a setting.  They like to snack on metal, even in ore form, and they can smell ore at 20 feet and magic metal at 40 feet.  They do not eat very much at a single meal, and metal weighing between 5-8 pounds is quite enough to satiate one for 1-4 days.  Xaren speak a bizarre tongue but telepathy or knowledge of tongues can aid one in understanding them.  They will approach and seek a handout. They will become highly aggravated if they smell magical metal which is not offered to them; in such a situation they are 80% likely to attack. Failure to offer ordinary metal will produce an attack 40% of the time.

Xaren are not harmed by fire and cold (even magical varieties) but lightning will deal out half or no damage.  Move earth, flesh to rock and dig will kill them instantly.  Rock to mud lowers their armor class to 10 in 1-4 rounds.  Sharp weapons do only half-damage to xaren, but blunt weapons do full damage.  If attacked with a magic weapon, a xaren is 40% likely to try to bite the weapon (consider the weapon as AC -2 for this attempt).  A xaren bite will destroy any weapon utterly, but the weapon's owner is allowed a saving throw vs. crushing blow (with no bonus).

Xaren can move to the Elemental Plane of Earth at will and can move through solid rock at 9" per round.  It takes a xaren 1 full round to adjust its molecules so it can do this.

Xaren who reside on the Prime Material Plane are usually near treasure or ore of some kind.  They hoard treasure for emergencies and eat it only if no other metal is at hand.  Treasure type is as follows: 40% for 2-200 of each type of coin except platinum; 20% for 1-8 gems (10 gp base value); 10% for 1-2 magic items not made of metal and valued at under 10,000 gp.  Occasionally nonmetal magic items might be in their hoard.  Their lair might be a room inside of solid rock, for they can burrow in rock at 3" per round.  If this is the case (70% likely) it will not be very deep in the earth (only 10 feet or so).  Xaren losing a melee will flee to their lair, and, if found there, escape to the Elemental Plane of Earth.

From Monster Manual II (1983).

*Xaren*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean 
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Minerals and magical metal 
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10) 
TREASURE: O, P, X, Y 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 1 
ARMOR CLASS: 1 
MOVEMENT: 9, Br 3 
HIT DICE: 5+5 
THAC0: 15 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3(x3)/4-16 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: M (4' tall) 
MORALE: Champion (15) 
XP VALUE: 3,000 

Xaren are relatives of the xorn, with identical abilities in combat. Xaren resemble xorn closely, though they are slightly smaller and their hides are shinier, almost metallic. Unlike ordinary xorn, they crave magical metal as food. For each plus of enchantment they eat, they permanently gain 1 hit point, up to their maximum of 45. Even after reaching their maximum growth, they still require magical metal to maintain their health. They can smell magical metal up to 40 feet away. 

Like xorn, xaren expect handouts. They demand magical metal from creatures with enchanted weapons or armor, and attack if they are denied. They prefer iron, copper, silver, gold and electrum (in that order), though they will also snack on metallic ore.

If attacked with a magical weapon, xaren can make an attack roll against AC -2 to bite an opponent's weapon. If they hit, the weapon must save vs. crushing blow or be destroyed.

Xaren and xorn are indifferent to one another and rarely cooperate. Dao do not enslave xaren, though they do hunt them.

From Monstrous Manual.


----------



## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Outsider (earth) like xorn, I guess.

Eating magic items is going to be interesting.

Immune to fire & cold, resistance 10 to electricity?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 5, 2008)

Do modern xorn have any resistances/immunities?

Demiurge out.


----------



## freyar (Apr 5, 2008)

Xorn are immune to fire and cold and have resistance to electricity 10.  They also have DR 5/bludgeoning, and the MMII (1983) version of xaren look like they should have that, also.


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Since these fellas were originally smaller and weaker than xorn, but xorn now come in Small size and weaker, shall we just use the ability scores of the minor xorn as a baseline?


----------



## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Yeah, I think that's a good idea.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 8, 2008)

Should we have a minor, average and elder xaren? Or are we going to say that there's only one sort?

Demiurge out.


----------



## freyar (Apr 8, 2008)

From a quick eyeball, the three kinds of xorn just look like advanced creatures (they did the ability boosts differently, but that seems about it), so I'd vote no.

From the minor xorn: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10.  Any changes?

We also want the same Earthglide ability.  I think we've agreed on immune to fire and cold, resistance to electricity 10, and DR 5/bludgeoning.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 8, 2008)

They appear to be pretty sneaky (surprise on a 1-6) and rude (demanding metal from adventurers). I'd raise their Dex by 2 and lower their Cha by 2, just to differentiate them a little.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews with the minor xorn's statistics except where we've decided on changes (Dex, Cha, etc.)


----------



## freyar (Apr 16, 2008)

Looks like a good start.


> Unlike ordinary xorn, they crave magical metal as food. For each plus of enchantment they eat, they permanently gain 1 hit point, up to their maximum of 45. Even after reaching their maximum growth, they still require magical metal to maintain their health. They can smell magical metal up to 40 feet away.
> 
> ...
> 
> If attacked with a magical weapon, xaren can make an attack roll against AC -2 to bite an opponent's weapon. If they hit, the weapon must save vs. crushing blow or be destroyed.




Improved Sunder as a bonus feat but only vs magic weapons?  Not quite sure how to handle that.  Also, gaining permanent hp seems a bit inelegant, but I don't know quite what to suggest as a replacement.  Temp hp seems too weak but a Con bonus seems maybe too strong.  What do you think?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 17, 2008)

I say temporary Con bonus, as per a shambling mound getting hit by an electricity effect.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2008)

Ok, good idea.  So, Improved Sunder as a bonus feat.  Do we want to give it Combat Reflexes as a bonus or some special ability to give it more chances to sunder magic weapons?  Probably also ought to give it an ability to bypass hardness, too.

Enchantment Consumption (Su): When a xaren destroys a magic weapon with a sunder attempt, it devours it.  The xaren immediately gains 1 point of Constitution per point of enchantment bonus of the weapon (including bonuses due to weapon properties such as keen or flaming).  The xaren loses these points of Constitution at the rate of one per hour.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 17, 2008)

The bite attack of a xaren counts as adamantine for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and hardness.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2008)

I think it looks pretty good.  Should we give it Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat (so it can sunder those weapons more often), or is it nasty enough?


----------



## Shade (Apr 17, 2008)

With Dex 12, that won't make a difference, right?


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2008)

You get to make an additional AoO per round per point of Dex bonus, so they'd still get one extra AoO.  But we could always bump Dex to 14 or more if you want.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

OK, let's raise Dex to 14.  Rather than making it a bonus feat, let's just drop Toughness, since they seemed to be intended to be a bit weaker than xorn.



> They like to snack on metal, even in ore form, and they can smell ore at 20 feet and magic metal at 40 feet.






			
				3.5 xorn said:
			
		

> Xorns do not attack fleshly beings except to defend themselves or their property, since they cannot digest meat. Xorns are indifferent to creatures of the Material Plane—with the sole exception of anyone carrying a significant amount of precious metals or minerals, which xorns eat. They can smell food up to 20 feet away. A xorn can be quite aggressive when seeking food, especially on the Material Plane, where such sustenance is harder to find than it is on its native plane.




Does the xorn's flavor text suffice?  Or is this more appropriate?

Metal Scent (Ex): Xaren can smell nonmagical metal within 20 feet, and magically-enhanced metal within 40 feet. This functions exactly as the scent ability, except it only applies to metal.


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

Sounds good.

I think the xorn flavor text is ok, though we should add that xaren can smell magical metal from a greater distance.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

Updated.

Stick with CR 3 like the minor xorn or are they improved enough to warrant CR 4?

Anything else?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 23, 2008)

The adamantine bite plus the higher AC suggest to me that CR 4 may be warranted. 

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

Yeah, that feels right.

Advancement like this to match xorn?

4–6 HD (Small); 7–14 HD (Medium); 15–21 HD (Large); 22–45 HD (Huge)


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2008)

I say keep 'em Small (or maybe Medium) but let them get up to about 12 HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 24, 2008)

I agree to xornish advancement proportions.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I agree to xornish advancement proportions.




That feels right to me.  Freyar, any strong reason for keeping 'em Small?


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Not particularly strong, just that we didn't go with the "age categories" for the xaren.  Just felt like keeping them a little different.  Xorn advancement is ok, though.


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

Let's allow them to keep up with the xornses.    

Updated.

Another one done?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 24, 2008)

Looks like it to me. Throw it on the pile with the rest, and let's move on.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Done, agreed.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

*The Questing Beast*
A powerful sorceress created the Questing Beast in vengeance for the destruction of her lover, a giant who was preying upon Pellinore’s lands. The Questing Beast is a four-footed reptile resembling a camel without the humps, and having a long, serpentine tail ending in a nasty spiked ball. It wanders across Pellinore’s lands wreaking havoc and destruction. Because Pellinore’s men used a pack of hounds to track down the giant, the beasts’ favorite prey are dogs, which it swallows whole and which sometimes remain alive in the beasts’ stomach for years.

Although anybody brave enough to face the horrid creature might be lucky enough to drive it off, only Sir Pellinore or one of his descendants can kill it.

AC -5	No. 1	SZ 10’	XP 5,000
MV 18	ML 18	AL n	INT high
HD 10	HP 80	MR 30%	THAC0 11
#AT 4	Dmg 1d12/1d8/1d8/1d10

Special Att/Def:  The questing beast can only be killed by Pellinore, Percivale, Lamerok, Agglovale, Durnarde, Tor, Elayne, Galahad or someone else descended from Pellinore. Once per day, it breathes a cloud of poison gas which does 5d8 damage. Those who save versus poison will suffer half damage.

Originally appeared in Legends and Lore (1990).


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

Here's the Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Questing_Beast


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

Keeping the mechanic that it can only be killed by specific people is just dumb. Change it to crazy, tarrasque-level regeneration, perhaps?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2008)

That would be fair.  Or else allow the DM to design a plot to kill it, either way.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Agreed.

Magical beast?

Int is High (13-14).  Suggestions for the other ability scores?

A Con score of 14-17 would put it close to the original's 80 hp.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2008)

Probably fairly strong and also quite dexterous given the AC.  26-31 for both?  Con sounds ok if a little low.


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## Big Mac (Jun 7, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Keeping the mechanic that it can only be killed by specific people is just dumb. Change it to crazy, tarrasque-level regeneration, perhaps?




It seems to me that the "purpose" of this monster is to be a curse on the land and the family of the ruler of a local area. I think that the "only Sir Pellinore or one of his descendants can kill it" rule was designed to force the members of the family to fight the Questing Beast.

I don't think the sorceress would do that, unless she thought that the Questing Beast could slowly kill off the family who killed her lover and drive off the family's servants and tennants.

I think this is badly written. I think that the "Quest" part of this creature, is definately a quest forced on a single ruling family by a powerful spellcaster who has either created* or summoned** the Beast Glatisant (Barking Beast).

_* = If this creature is created, would it need to change into a Construct and be viewed in a similar way to a golem? If this creature was a golem it could have regeneration, as you suggest. (Interestingly a quest spell seems to be part of the process of creating a Mithral Golem and Adamantine Golem, so this sort of route, could incorporate a quest into the Questing Beast)

Alternatively, would a created creature be a bunch of other creatures melded into one Magical Beast or Abberation? Draconians (from Dragonlance) seem to be the most famous modified D&D creatures. But they just come from dragons. I'd guess that a creature made from half a dozen other animals would need to have traits from those creatures. Regeneration isn't implied by this sort of creature. (I think the creature needs something to keep it alive, but a bit of creative thought is needed to find an excuse for regeneration, damage reduction or anything similar.)_

_** = If the creature is summoned then it would probably need to change into an Outsider from the outer planes and be viewed as a powerful outsider that has been summoned by a long term spell that ends with the death of the last family member. If this creature was a summoned creature it could actually get driven back to its outer plane when "killed" and could automatically be re-summoned the next day/night (unless a family member completes the quest that breaks the summoning spell)._

I think that something like that (not necessarily identical to that) needs to be built into the design of the converted creature. Just making this creature hard to kill wouldn't bring across what I see as its purpose.

What do we know about the dead giant and his sorceress wife? Are there any clues in Legends & Lore, other 2nd edition books that mention King Arthur, other D&D books that mention King Arthur or the original mythology that could tell us more about the type of giant this creature was created/summoned to avenge?

Does anyone know of any other monsters that were created by a spellcaster?

Page 142 of Towers of High Sorcery (Dragonlance) has a _Dread Beast_ template (along with a _Create Dread Beast_ spell) that can turn dead animals, magical beasts and vermin into undead creatures. (These creatures are linked to the caster and have to stay within 50 miles.)

I'm not so sure the Questing Beast *should* be an undead, but I do like the fact that a spell for creating the beast is tied into it. Maybe there should be a sidebar with the spell used by the sorceress.

Page 146 of Towers of High Sorcery has an Eldritch Avatar (template) that can create a physical manifestation of a place of power or magical item. These are constructs that can look like any corporal creature (that can't cast divine spells). They have an interesting Discorporate (Ex) ability that makes them vanish back into their place of power (or item) when reduced to zero hp.

The Eldritch Avatar isn't totally right, but I do like the fact, that it *can be* tied to a location (in this case the lands of Pellinore) and I do like the fact that you can "kill it" and then have it come back later. I think that is a lot better than uber regeneration as it would force a member of the Pellinore family to be involved in the killing to do (_whatever is required by some sort of quest effect_) to stop the Questing Beast coming back.

Do we have any clues as to an outer plane realm that the creature might come from if it was a summoned creature? If this was a summoned creature, you could make a version that could be defeated normally and then add a sidebar with a special spell the sorcerer has used to turn this Outsider into an "unbeatable monster" that comes back every time it is defeated.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 7, 2008)

Created by a spellcaster is a standard for magical beasts and aberrations, even though there are no specific spells to do so (until you get to Epic levels, which had a rather half-hearted version thereof). The wizard Thesselar, for example, in addition to creating the serpent-headed thessalhydras that bear his name, also took credit for the mimic, the owlbear, the rust monster, and many others. The chuul has been repeatedly mentioned as a creature created by one mad wizard, whose island is now overrun with his creations.

Leave it a magical beast.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2008)

Yeah, lets stick with magical beast and leave the questing requirement up to DMs via geas/quest or something else of their creation.

Back to ability scores...

Str 26-31, Dex 26-31, Con 17+, Int 13-14, Wis 15-16, Cha 13-14?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 9, 2008)

I like the high Str and Dex. Appropriately beastly. I'd say lean towards the higher end of the spectrum for both.

I don't think that it should be mentally impressive, although perhaps with a high Charisma so it's suitably scary.


----------



## Shade (Jun 10, 2008)

OK, so how about...

Str 31, Dex 30, Con 19, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16?


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews with those stats.

Does Con still seem too low?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2008)

Compared to the other ability scores, it does seem sorta low.


----------



## Shade (Jun 13, 2008)

Bump to 26?  Or even 30?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2008)

I think 26 is reasonable. It's already unkillable, so...


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

Con 26 sounds good to me, as well.  

How did we want to deal with killing it?  Crazy regeneration or just DM fiat?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 14, 2008)

Crazy regeneration, only way to kill it is to bring it to equivalent of -10 and use a wish, like a tarrasque. Since it's weaker than the tarrasque, we may want a limited wish to do the job, and create the rumor that specific bloodlines and weapons can deal lethal damage to the beast.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2008)

I think limited wish, wish, and miracle.  I also agree that there should be something in the flavor text about specific weapons or bloodlines dealing lethal damage.  That leaves a good McGuffin way out...


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Like so?

Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the questing beast. The questing beast regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the questing beast fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 145 hp). The questing beast is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The questing beast can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 145 hit points) and using a limited wish, wish or miracle spell to keep it dead. Legends claim that specific bloodlines and weapons can also deal lethal damage to the beast.  If the questing beast loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Looks good to me if everyone else likes it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

I say it looks good.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

What amount for the regeneration?



> Because Pellinore’s men used a pack of hounds to track down the giant, the beasts’ favorite prey are dogs, which it swallows whole and which sometimes remain alive in the beasts’ stomach for years.




Improved grab/swallow whole (Small or smaller creatures)?



> Once per day, it breathes a cloud of poison gas which does 5d8 damage. Those who save versus poison will suffer half damage.




Model after green dragon's breath weapon?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The strange creature has the head and neck of a serpent, the body of a leopard, the haunches of a lion and the feet of a hart. Its name comes from the great noise it emits from its belly, a barking like "thirty couple hounds questing".




Give it pounce and rake like leopards and lions?

Extended reach with bite?

+4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks (like snakes)?

Deer have a +2 racial bonus on Hide checks.  Lions have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks.  Leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks (the latter due to Climb speed).   Maybe find a middle ground with a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, Jump, and Move Silently checks?  I'm guessing the feet of a hart would make climbing difficult.  

Mimicry ability limited to the sound of a pack of hounds?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

The mimicry thing is too weird and specific. Just mention it sounds like that.

Extended reach for the bite, like a dragon. I don't think I like pounce for this guy, but I do like improved grab + rake, as well as Swallow Whole. 

How about regen 10-15?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 18, 2008)

Given the quote listed above, the sound coming from its belly probably IS "thirty hounds questing".


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Given the quote listed above, the sound coming from its belly probably IS "thirty hounds questing".




Good point!  

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Let's fill in some x's.

Breath weapon: 40 ft cone

Rake: +14 (1d8+5) ?

Swallow whole: 1d12+10 bludgeoning plus 8 acid?; 2 Small, 8 Tiny, 32 Diminutive or smaller?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2008)

All of those X's sound fine by me.

What feats do we want? Power Attack, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Cleave?


----------



## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Those sound pretty good to me.  Or maybe Imp Overrun instead of Cleave, either way.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2008)

I prefer Cleave because that way, it can make a free attack after swallowing someone (at least, with my reading of the Cleave feat; I'm not sure how rules-legal that is).


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

That's good enough for me!


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

All that sounds good.

Updated.

Darkvision x ft. 

Skills: 39
Hide 9, Listen 13, Move Silently 4, Spot 13?

Environment: Any land?

Challenge Rating: 10?

Advancement: 11-20 HD (Large) 21-30 HD (Huge)?  [assuming we make it non-unique]

A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the gizzard


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Umm, 60 ft darkvision.  The rest looks good; 15 pts damage to the gizzard.  Actually, with regeneration, does that work?


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Umm, 60 ft darkvision.  The rest looks good; 15 pts damage to the gizzard.  Actually, with regeneration, does that work?




It does for the tarrasque.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Updated.

A questing beast is 10 feet long and weighs x pounds.

Since it is intelligent, should we give it languages, or at least the abilty so understand a language or two?


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Ummm, 2 tons?  I'd say it understands Common and Draconic.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 21, 2008)

...is there any particular reason the Questing Beast isn't actually a dragon?


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2008)

It's one of those wacky bits-and-pieces monsters, like a chimera.  Usually those are magical beasts, right?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 21, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> It's one of those wacky bits-and-pieces monsters, like a chimera.  Usually those are magical beasts, right?



"The Questing Beast is a four-footed reptile resembling a camel without the humps, and having a long, serpentine tail ending in a nasty spiked ball."

Doesn't sound that bits-and-pieces to me. Sounds more like a traditional Middle Ages dragon. The description Wikipedia gives, though, sounds a bit more chimerical:

"The strange creature has the head and neck of a serpent, the body of a leopard, the haunches of a lion and the feet of a hart. Its name comes from the great noise it emits from its belly, a barking like "thirty couple hounds questing".

Of course, it was said of Chinese dragons:

"The people paint the dragon's shape with a horse's head and a snake's tail. Further, there are expressions as 'three joints' and 'nine resemblances' (of the dragon), to wit: from head to shoulder, from shoulder to breast, from breast to tail. These are the joints; as to the nine resemblances, they are the following: his horns resemble those of a stag, his head that of a camel, his eyes those of a demon, his neck that of a snake, his belly that of a clam (shen, 蜃), his scales those of a carp, his claws those of an eagle, his soles those of a tiger, his ears those of a cow."

So either works for me. I just thought we were giving it a lot of draconic stuff (the language, a breath weapon).


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2008)

I think Shade went with the Wiki description.  Doesn't really matter to me, either, and I'm also fine with changing the language.  I only picked Draconic because that seemed like something a sorceress creator would likely use.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2008)

Yeah, I went with the Wiki description.

My initial gut reaction when reading the creature was, "I thought this thing was some sort of dragon", so I'm with you.

I'm fine with switching to dragon if you guys would prefer.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2008)

Either way is fine; changing to dragon will just make it a little tougher.

Edit: Considering how hard this is to kill, should we consider a slightly higher CR?  Limited wish isn't even available until 13th level.


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Either way is fine; changing to dragon will just make it a little tougher.
> 
> Edit: Considering how hard this is to kill, should we consider a slightly higher CR?  Limited wish isn't even available until 13th level.




Sure. Switching to dragon will definitely up the CR.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Tough enough for CR 13?  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Updated with stats if we change it to dragon.  I kept the magical beast stats as well, for comparison.

The dragon version might make CR 13.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Not much difference, just the Will save and skills, I guess.  Yeah, I think I could see CR 13.


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2008)

So...change to dragon?


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2008)

Shade said:


> So...change to dragon?



Think so.  Then I guess it's done!


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 29, 2008)

Yeah, change to dragon, CR 13 sounds right.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

freyar said:


> Think so.  Then I guess it's done!




Not quite.  We've got 40 additional skill ranks to assign, thanks to the type change.  

Updated for reference.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Ooops, missed those. 

I think we can put 13 in Balance, 4 in Hide, 5 in Jump, and 9 in Move Silently to max those out.  That would leave 9 ranks for Intimidate (or we can shuffle those around some).


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

Updated.

Are we done now?


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2008)

I think we're done.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

Ooh...I really like the applications for this next one!

*Jade Fish*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any (see below)
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Highly (13-14)
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING:1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: Sw 15
HIT DICE: 3+3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spitting
SPECIAL DEFENSE: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
SIZE: T (up to 2' long)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE: 650

Jade fish are sleek, beautiful creatures- with deep green scales and wide, bright green eyes. Jade fish are able to continuously produce water, an ability for which they were once greatly prized. Now, they are so rare that few know of their magical abilities.

Intelligent creatures, jade fish observe the world around them, learning what they can. They will generally learn to speak the most common languase in the area and will often answer questions if asked politely and given a gift. A jade fish will have knowledge equivalent to that given by a local history nonweapon proficiency.

Combat: Jade fish prefer to avoid combat, though they will defend themselves and they do attack small animals for food. The bite of a jade fish causes only one or two points of damage, but the creature can spit a powerful jet of water at animals that venture close enough to the jade fish's pool.

The stream of water has a range of five feet and causes 1d10 hit points of damage on a successful hit. The jade fish will try to attack so that the victim falls into the pool. Once a victim is killed, the jade fish will nibble on it until only bones are left.

Habitat/Society: Myths hold that jade fish were created by a rain goddess to help her chosen people live in the desert. These beautiful, magical fish produce prodigious amounts of water from their mouths, filling any pool in which they are placed until it overflows.

A jade fish can be found almost anywhere, since it essentially creates its own environment. If placed in an area where its water cannot collect and form a pool, however, it will eventually die. In contrast, it also needs to be in a place where some of the water it produces can run off, or it wiil create enough water pressure to crush itself.

Jade fish were greatly valued for their ability to create almost infinite amounts of water (up to four gallons per hour), and many were taken into captivity. The fish didn't mind their captivity, however. It gave them an opportunity to learn, and most of their captors treated them as guests, bringing them gifts of food and valuable gems and coins.

Since jade fish are now found only in captivity, or in places where they were once brought to by others, they rarely seek out a mate. Instead, jade fish have come to rely on their human caretakers to bring a male and female together. At such times, they go through an elaborate underwater mating dance that lasts for up to a week. The female lays eggs two years after mating, and those eggs hatch 18 months later. The newly hatched fish are brilliant emerald, gradually darkening over the next 25 years as they grow to maturity. Jade fish can live for centuries, and some say there are a few more than a millennium old. The scales of a jade fish continue to darken as they age, and the oldest ones have scales that are almost black.

Ecology: Unlike most creatures, a jade fish can actually create its ecology. It does its best to patrol the pool it creates, trying to ensure that all residents live in relative harmony.

Jade fish seldom hunt for food as they quire very little sustenance. However, they are able to defend themselves handily. Most unintelligent predators aeem to regard them with something akin to awe and attack them in only the worst circumstances.

Despite persistent rumors to the contrary, the water produced by jade fish is not magical in any way, though it is always fresh and dear. If a jade fish in injured, though, the water will become cloudy until it heals.

Jade fish care little for treasure, but many have become accustomed to the gifts their caretakers give them. They feel honored by those gifts and will not willingly part with them except for a very good reason.

The value of a jade fish varies greatly. It is of almost immeasurable value to people who dwell in deserts, since the fish can provide life to them. Those who live in wetter regions tend to value the fish less, but they still admire the rarity, beauty, and wisdom of the green fish.

Originally appeared in GR2 - Dungeons of Mystery (1992).


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2008)

So, create water at will, the spit attack--should we have the spit attack act as a ranged trip attempt, so as to knock creatures into the water?


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

The spit kind of reminds me of the geyser function of decanter of endless water, but it does even more hp damage!  Otherwise, I'm not sure if create water at will is too much if they can only do 4 gallons/hour.  (That would be 2 create waters/hour at 1st CL.)  So ditch the 4 gallon/hour or restrict the SLA?


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

I kinda like pursuing the decanter of endless water similarities.

Let's figure out ability scores.

Its Tiny, so probably not very strong.   Int is given (13-14).  If we stick with the converted AC of 14, its Dex would need a +2 bonus (to go with the +2 from Tiny).  Wis and Cha are probably comparable to Int.  HD 3+3 could loosely translate to a +1 Con modifier.

So maybe Str 6, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 15?


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

Sounds about right.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

So: modify decanter of endless water for the water stream attack?  Do we want to keep the 4 gallon/hour limitation on the water creation ability (I'd lean toward not)?


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Hmmm...if we don't mention the limit, it could produce 600 gallons per hour (like the decanter).  Is that too much?


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2008)

Well, then it can really fill up its pools fast!  4 gallons seems a little low to me; we could go somewhere in the middle.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Assuming I'm doing the calculations correct here:

http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-Swimming-Pool-Volume,-Gallons

600 gallons (like the decanter) would fill a 4-foot-deep, 5-foot-diameter pool in an hour.  I could live with that.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

That sound pretty reasonable.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2008)

Agreed, so let's make these things into living decanters!


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Attempt #1:

Water Stream (Su):  A jade fish can continually produce water.  It can create up to 1 gallon per round.  Alternatively, as a standard action, a jade fish can create a tremendously powerful 5-foot line of water. Any creature in the area of the line takes 1d10 points of damage (Reflex DC x negates). A creature failing the saving throw must succeed on a Strength check (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be knocked prone by the force of the blast.  For each 5 points by which a target fails the check, it is pushed back 5 feet.  The jade fish attempts to knock opponents into pools it creates with its water jet.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2008)

Overall pretty good, but I think I'd go with Con-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2008)

I agree with freyar. Con based all the way.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

D'oh!  Cut n' paste issue...I agree with you guys wholeheartedly.



> Intelligent creatures, jade fish observe the world around them, learning what they can. They will generally learn to speak the most common languase in the area and will often answer questions if asked politely and given a gift. A jade fish will have knowledge equivalent to that given by a local history nonweapon proficiency.




Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Knowledge (local) among their skills?  Racial bonuses on any of them?



> Despite persistent rumors to the contrary, the water produced by jade fish is not magical in any way, though it is always fresh and dear. If a jade fish in injured, though, the water will become cloudy until it heals.




Should we do anything with that other than flavor text?


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2008)

Maybe a racial bonus on knowledge (local).  I think the water bit could be interesting as a tactic: maybe it provides concealment to a wounded jade fish.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Updated.



freyar said:


> I think the water bit could be interesting as a tactic: maybe it provides concealment to a wounded jade fish.




Good idea.  How's this?

Water Symbiosis (Su):  The water created by a jade fish is attuned to its creator.  If a jade fish becomes injured, any water it has created turns cloudy.  This grants any creatures within the jade fish's pool concealment.  The cloudiness dissipates once the jade fish is fully healed.

Feats: 2

Environment: Any?

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Always neutral?

Advancement: 3-6 HD (Tiny)/ 7-9 HD (Small)?

A jade fish is up to 2 feet long and weighs x pounds. 

Jade fish speak Common and one or more local languages?


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

I like all the suggestions.  Maybe 5-10 lb?

Feats: Negotiator, Iron Will?
CR: 2?


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Updated.

Anything else?


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Looks good.  Those are rather fun!


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## Big Mac (Jul 23, 2008)

The only issue I have with you increasing the water production of the fish is that the original blurb says that the fish can't turn off its water production and eventually kills itself:



Shade said:


> In contrast, it also needs to be in a place where some of the water it produces can run off, or it wiil create enough water pressure to crush itself.




This reminds me (in some ways) of the way that the teeth of rodents grow forever. If a rat stops wearing its teeth down they grow so much that they kill it. But most rats are able to wear their teeth down as they grow. If this fish is placed in a sealed area the pressure is going to build up. Just like the rat needs to wear down its teeth, this fish needs to spill some of its water.

I think this issue needs explaining in the *Water Stream (Su)* section. It might even need some formal rules. I'd say that it would be similar to the rules for suffocation in stale air. The larger the sealed area the fish is in, the longer it has to survive.

(The fish would probably have been better off if you slowed it down.)


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Hmmm....while logical, I'm not sure that it really adds enough to the creature to retain that, beyond maybe flavor text.

Any other thoughts?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Can't it always just swim up to the top of the lake it produces and avoid the crushing pressure that way?  In addition, the text says it *can* produce water continuously, not that it is unable to stop.  So I think we're ok as is.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Good point.  Since the water production is voluntary, and the fish is intelligent, it probably need not worry about this.  That appears to be a contradiction in the original creature as well.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Let's move on.  BigMac, if you feel strongly on the water matter, we can revisit it later.

*Splanxty*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOUR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15”//15"
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: Q
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (bow) and 2 (special)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3 + special (see below)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENCES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Neutral
SIZE: S (18” tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: III/113+2 per hit point

Splanxties are mischievous water-dwelling creatures related, it is said, to both nixies and leprechauns. They live in swiftmoving bodies of water (mountain streams, rapids, waterfalls, and so on) and never move far from such torrents. They are never surprised and, while in contact with flowing water, can hide so as to be 50% undetectable (cf. thief's hide in shadows ability).

Although they are fairly intelligent, splanxties are extremely childish and have a correspondingly irritating sense of humour. They delight in harrassing and fooling people with practical jokes, harmless traps and riddles, and will often arrogantly demand tribute in the form of gems.

So long as a splanxty is not attacked and its victims provide it with amusement, it will not use any of its abilities in an aggressive manner. However, if those victims attack it or refuse to 'play along' it will attack wildly, in a fit of childish temper, using every means at its disposal. When so annoyed, the splanxty will usually (80% chance) jump up and down in irritation and so reveal its location.

Splanxties carry fine, tiny bows (similar to those of pixies). Their arrows are all +4 to hit, cause 1-3 hit points of damage and a loss of 1 point of strength for 1-4 hours. These bows and arrows can only be used by splanxties.
Once per day, a splanxty can create an illusion with both audible and visual components which lasts without concentration for d6+10 rounds or until magically dispelled. Splanxties are also able to throw their voices (cf. ventriloquism spell) and to imitate the speech of all humans and demihumans (although they are only able to speak in the common tongue).

A splanxty can animate small quantities of water (up to 60 feet away) to create irritating splashes, jets and so forth. Alternatively, the jets can be made to strike out at creatures within 5 feet of the torrent. Up to two attacks per round can be made in this way, and thc splanxty may perform other actions at the same time. Each jet has a THAC0 of 16, and causes 1 hit point of damage. Striking at the water with weapons will not affect these attacks in any way. Once every 3 rounds a splanxty can move instantaneously between any two points joined by flowing water (up to 100 feet apart).

Physically, splanxties resemble small, thin children. Their loose-fitting robes are actually made of white linen but, while being worn by a splanxty appear to be made of constantly moving water.

Originally appeared in UK5 - Eye of the Serpent (1984).


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

> Splanxties are mischievous water-dwelling creatures related, it is said, to both nixies and leprechauns.




Aquatic  fey?  Should we make them sprites, like nixies?

They are the same size as grigs, so Tiny.  

Grig:  Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14
Nixie: Str 7, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 18
Pixie: Str 7, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16

Int is Very (11-12).

I’d recommend borrowing the grig’s physical ability scores and the nixie’s mental scores, giving us…

Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 18



> They live in swiftmoving bodies of water (mountain streams, rapids, waterfalls, and so on) and never move far from such torrents.






> They are never surprised and, while in contact with flowing water, can hide so as to be 50% undetectable (cf. thief's hide in shadows ability).




*Nixies have a +5 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water.



> Splanxties carry fine, tiny bows (similar to those of pixies). Their arrows are all +4 to hit, cause 1-3 hit points of damage and a loss of 1 point of strength for 1-4 hours. These bows and arrows can only be used by splanxties.




Modeling after pixies…

Special Arrows (Ex): Splanxties sometimes employ arrows that deal 1 point of Strength damage.

Or…

Special Arrows (Ex): Splanxties sometimes employ arrows that inflict a -1 Strength penalty on a victim for 1d4 hours.



> Once per day, a splanxty can create an illusion with both audible and visual components which lasts without concentration for d6+10 rounds or until magically dispelled.




Programmed image?



> Splanxties are also able to throw their voices (cf. ventriloquism spell) and to imitate the speech of all humans and demihumans (although they are only able to speak in the common tongue).




Ventriloquism as an at-will SLA?

Borrow this?

Sound Imitation (Ex): A juvenile or older blue dragon can mimic any voice or sound it has heard, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a Will save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s frightful presence) to detect the ruse.



> A splanxty can animate small quantities of water (up to 60 feet away) to create irritating splashes, jets and so forth. Alternatively, the jets can be made to strike out at creatures within 5 feet of the torrent. Up to two attacks per round can be made in this way, and thc splanxty may perform other actions at the same time. Each jet has a THAC0 of 16, and causes 1 hit point of damage. Striking at the water with weapons will not affect these attacks in any way.




Unique SLA or Su ability?



> Once every 3 rounds a splanxty can move instantaneously between any two points joined by flowing water (up to 100 feet apart).




Something like tree stride, but with water?


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Let's make them sprites.  Abilities look good.

In addition to the hide bonus, what about giving them hide in plain sight as long as they're in the water?

I like the standard Str damage for the special arrows.

Have to get back to the rest of this later...


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Added to Homebrews based on the comments so far.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Programmed Image 1/day, Ventriloquism at will, Sound Imitation all seem right.

Probably an SLA for the water animation.

I'm thinking about dimension door between two water-filled areas, kind of like a shadowdancer's shadow jump.


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Like so?

Water Leap (Su):  Once every three rounds, a splanxty can travel between areas of flowing water as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with flowing water at least as large as the splanxty. A splanxty can leap up to 100 feet each time.



> A splanxty can animate small quantities of water (up to 60 feet away) to create irritating splashes, jets and so forth. Alternatively, the jets can be made to strike out at creatures within 5 feet of the torrent. Up to two attacks per round can be made in this way, and thc splanxty may perform other actions at the same time. Each jet has a THAC0 of 16, and causes 1 hit point of damage.




Here's an attempt at this ability...

Animate Water (Sp):  At will, a splanxty can animate a 5-foot patch of water within 60 feet.   The water will lash out with irritating jets and splashes against adjacent targets.  These attacks use the splanxty's base attack bonus and Dexterity modifier to determine the attack modifier (+5 for a typical splanxty) and deal 1 point of damage.   The water cannot be harmed in any way.  The water remains animated for 1 full round and may make attacks of opportunity.  This is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

I like those both!

Filling in an x: CL 2 for both SLAs?


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 35
Common sprite skills include Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Search, Sense Motive, Spot

Feats:  1 more   (Most sprites have Alertness or Stealthy...since these fellas are never surprised, I'd lean more toward Alertness)

Treasure: No coins; 50% goods (metal or stone only); 50% items (no scrolls) [like a nixie?]

CR:  3-4?   Pixies are CR 4, but have a few more SLAs, can fly, and are naturally invisible, while splanxties have 1 more Hit Die than pixies.

Grigs speak Sylvan. Some also speak Common. 
Nixies speak Aquan and Sylvan.
Pixies speak Sylvan and Common, and may know other languages as well.

So maybe...
Splanxties speak Aquan and Sylvan.  Some also speak Common.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

Definitely Alertness.

Skills: max out Bluff, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Perform (?), Spot.

Treasure is good.  Languages are good.

CR 4 I think is ok.  

What did you think about Hide in Plain Sight as long as they're in the water?  That could push them a little more in to the CR 4 range.


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Oops!  You did mention that upthread.   How's this?

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of water, a splanxty can use the Hide skill even while being observed.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

I'd be happy with that.   These look done now, I think!


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

*Shadowcrawler*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any (prefers darkness)
DIET: Blood
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4x4, 1d6
SPECIAL ATACKS: Surprise, hug, blood drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Phasing, wall crawling
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5' long, 2' tall)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: 3,000

Shadowcrawlers are sly predators that prowl subterranean areas hunting for prey. They appear to be some sort of strange cross between cats and spiders, and they are very likely the unfortunate result of magical experimentation.

A shadowcrawler's body is covered in soft, short hair of purest ebony. It has eight legs that stick out laterally from its body, which appears almost segmented because of its series of shoulders. The feet of a shadowcrawler look much like cat paws, complete with retractable claws. The shadowcrawler's head and eyes are also very catlike in appearance, though its snout is longer. The creature's tail looks much like a cat's tail.

Some shadowcrawlers, perhaps 10%, have learned to speak rough Common or a different local language. Their speech is guttural. They have no known language.

Combat: Shadowcrawlers are cunning predators and wiil often lie in wait for hours for a good catch or stalk a group of animals (or adventurers) for long periods of time, waiting to attack a straggler. These creatures can travel on wall and ceilings just like spiders, and they will often hang above a doorway to wait for prey. A shadowcrawler will never attack any creature that is larger than an average human.
When in darkness, a shadowcrawler is totally silent and almost invisible. Opponents receive a -4 penalty to their surprise rolls when confronting a shadowcrawler.

A shadowcrawler will attack only one opponent at a time. When attacking its chosen target, a shadowcrawler rears up on its four back legs and strikes with its four front claws, causing ld4 damage per successful hit. At the same time, it will attempt to bite for 1d6 hit points of damage. If two or more of its claws hit, it draws its victim into a hug and begins dragging him off, using its powerful rear legs to backpedal at a movement rate of 9. The victim of a hug can break fire with a successful bend bats/lift gates roll, but he is otherwise immobile, taking ld4 points of crushing damage each round.

If a shadowcrawler's bite hits in the same round as a successful hug or while a victim is being held, the creature will drain lood at a rate of 1d6 hit points per round.

Shadowcrawlers also have the ability to phase through solid material at will. If wounded for more than 10 hit points in a single round, a shadowcrawler will drop any victim it holds and phase into the surrounding rock, vanishing for 1-3 rounds. The shadowcrawler moves through rock at its normal movement rate while phased, and it cannot be detected except by magical means. If it still wishes to press the attack, the creature will lunge out of the rock and try to attack with surprise, efther from above or behind its victim if possible.

A shadowcrawler is able to phase through rock while holding a victim, though it must pause for an entire round before doing so. It can take no other action besides holding its victim, draining blood if it has already begun to do so, and preparing to phase.

A phase door spell will instantly kill a shadowcrawler if cast on it while the creature is phasing through solid material.

Habitat/Society: Shadowcrawlers have an ingrained hatred for all other forms of life and prefer to live a solitary existence. They will usually make a lair in a dry cave, digging out a small hollow in which they sleep, lining it with fur. Shadowcrawlers are very light sleepers. A shadowcrawler will stake out a rather large territory around its lair, killing or driving off all weaker predators in the area.

About once every four years, a shadowcrawler will seek a mate, its yowling mating cry echoing from the stone walls of the tunnels it prowls. After a brief affair, the shadowcrawlers return to theik respective homes.

The creature's gestation period is three months, after which the female lays a large egg sac, hiding it away in a safe place. After another month of development, 2-12 shadowkittens hatch from the egg sac and scatter. Most are slain before they are able to adequately defend themselves and only 1-2 reach maturity, which occurs after a year of growth.

Ecology: Shadowcrawlers will attack almost any animal, though they prefer the blood of mammals. These creatures are neither stupid nor brave enough to attack other fierce predators, preferring instead to find new territory.

Originally appeared in GR2 - Dungeons of Mystery (1992).


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2008)

OK, so Medium magical beast... improved grab, pin, blood drain, racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently... how do we want to handle the phasing through stone? The stone specifically makes me think xorn-type movement.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2008)

Also Climb speed.  Xorn-like motion through rock might work, though the carrying a victim is a little weird, esp with the full-round "warm-up" time.  Any other beasties like this we can think of?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Let's try to figure out ability scores.

Int is 11-12.   Dex appears high.   Str seems average or slightly above.

Looking at some Medium spiders and cats...

Medium Monstrous Spider: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Leopard:  Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Cheetah: Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Maybe Str 14, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 11?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2008)

I'd boost the Con up to 14, but other than that, it looks good.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Sounds good.  Added to Homebrews.

Climb speed equal to land speed?

Want to use this?

Wallcrawling (Ex): The gacholoth need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

Stats look good.  Yes and yes to speed and wallcrawling. 

Any more thoughts on the phasing?


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

I think the earth glide will work.  We can always modify it slightly like the bar-lgura's take on greater teleport...

Abduction (Su): Unlike most tanar'ri, a bar-lgura can use greater teleport to transport other creatures. It can bring up to one Large or two Medium or smaller creatures with it each time it teleports. It can teleport unwilling targets as well, although an unwilling victim can attempt a DC 18 Will save to resist being transported. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Good plan!  So something like this (note ?s):

Earth Glide (Ex? or Su?): A shadowcrawler can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence.  A shadowcrawler can also carry a pinned (or held??) Medium or smaller creature through earth, but it requires a full-round action to prepare to use this tactic (during which it may still blood drain the held target).  An unwilling target receives a DC X Will save to resist being carried, which is made after the shadowcrawler's round of preparation.  The save DC is Charisma-based?

A phase door spell cast on an area containing a burrowing shadowcrawler kills the shadowcrawler instantly if it fails a Fortitude save(?).  [A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing shadowcrawler flings the shadowcrawler back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.??]

The move earth spell isn't in the original text, but it seems like a standard thing for earth glides.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

I can't really see any reason to retain the full-round "prep" time...it seems a bit clumsy as a 3e mechanic.

Otherwise, looks good!


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Do you want to have it drag any grappled opponent or just pinned ones?
Cha, Con, or even Str based DC to resist being carried?
Keep the move earth effect on phasing shadowcrawler?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 8, 2008)

Move earth should kill the shadowcrawler and the victim it's dragging.


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

freyar said:


> Do you want to have it drag any grappled opponent or just pinned ones?




I think grappled is fine.



freyar said:


> Cha, Con, or even Str based DC to resist being carried?




I'm not sure a save should be allowed, as it isn't a spell or supernatural effect like the abduction ability...it is simply taking along a victim on its movement (albeit in an odd manner).


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

So something like this?

Earth Glide (Ex): A shadowcrawler can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A shadowcrawler can also carry a grappled Medium or smaller creature through earth.

A phase door or move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing shadowcrawler kills the shadowcrawler and any creature it carries instantly if they fails a Fortitude save (DC determined as usual by spell level and caster ability modifier).


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

Looks good.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

Filling in x's:

weigh 100 lb?
1d4 Con damage for blood drain?
+8 skill bonus, increasing Hide to +12 in areas of shadowy illumination (since they are shadowcrawlers, after all).

Any other SAs we want?


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

Sounds good.  Shall we borrow some skill bonuses from cats and spiders?

Cats have a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks. Cats have a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks.

Monstrous spiders have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A monstrous spider can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Monstrous spiders use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. *Hunting spiders have a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks.

How about...

Skills: Shadowcrawlers have a +8 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, Jump, and Move Silently checks.  Shadowcrawlers use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb and Jump checks, whichever is higher.

*A shadowcrawler's racial bonus on Hide checks improves to +12 in areas of shadowy illumination.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

Hmm, maybe based on the cat and spider, we should reduce the Hide, Move Silently, and Spot bonuses to +4 (+8 Hide in shadowy).  You did drop the Balance bonus, but I'm not sure that makes up for increasing the other so much.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

freyar said:


> Hmm, maybe based on the cat and spider, we should reduce the Hide, Move Silently, and Spot bonuses to +4 (+8 Hide in shadowy).  You did drop the Balance bonus, but I'm not sure that makes up for increasing the other so much.  What do you think?




Oops!  I didn't mean to drop the Balance bonus.   Lets add Balance back, and lower the other bonuses as you suggested.

I'm also picturing these things with Tumble, but we can just give them ranks in it rather than a racial bonus.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

Agreed to that.  Maybe only +4 on Balance, since spiders don't have that and these have a lot of skill boni.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 30
Balance 5, Hide 5, Jump 5, Move Silently 5, Tumble 10?

Feats: 3
Acrobatic, Multiattack/Weapon Focus (claw), Stealthy?



> About once every four years, a shadowcrawler will seek a mate, its yowling mating cry echoing from the stone walls of the tunnels it prowls. After a brief affair, the shadowcrawlers return to theik respective homes.
> 
> The creature's gestation period is three months, after which the female lays a large egg sac, hiding it away in a safe place. After another month of development, 2-12 shadowkittens hatch from the egg sac and scatter. Most are slain before they are able to adequately defend themselves and only 1-2 reach maturity, which occurs after a year of growth.




Organization: Solitary, mated pair, or shadowkitten clutch (2-12 noncombatant young)?

Alignment: Always? neutral evil

Advancement: x


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2008)

Usually neutral evil. Acrobatic, Multiattack and Stealthy work for me.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

All the above looks good.  Advancement: 8-14 HD (Medium), 15-22 HD (Large), 23-30 HD (Huge)?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Updated.

CR 5?  They are better than a displacer beast and slightly weaker than an average zorn.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2008)

CR 5 sounds about right.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

Agreed, and I guess it's done.  Would sure be fun to use these!


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Phantom spiders are unforgiving servants of the drow that were "bred" from more lethal wraith spiders (Source: Monstrous Compendium Annual, Vol. II). As such, phantom spiders are partially immaterial, and easily fade into the darkness, except when they are arroused, their bodies are suffused with a cold witchlight while their eyes gleam with hellish malice.

Phantom spiders spin a foul green-glowing web that drains the very life from those that become ensnared in it: phantom webbing drains 1d4 hit points in the event of casual contact and reqquires a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation to avoid being immobilized for 1d6 rounds. Every round of continued contact drains an additional 1d4 hit points of damage from the cold. The webs only part to silver or +1 or better weapons, although a successful bend bars/lift gates roll will also break a strand. 

Development: Note that the spiders' phantom-like substance may prove too much for the heroes' means (phantom spiders can only be hit by silver or +1 or better weapons), so retreat might be the only tactic available (although note the phantom spider's weakness to holy water as described in the stats below). Phantom spiders do not pursue the player characters, unless the characters are accompanied by chitines. In this case, the phantom spider pursues until either it or the chitine are slain. 

*Phantom Spider (1):* AC 5; MV 18, Wb 18; HD 2+2; hp 10; THAC0 17; #AT 1; Dmg 1d4 (bite); SA Poison (see Notes); SD Silver or +1 or better weapons to hit, immune to cold-based attacks, sleep, charm, and hold spells; SW Holy water, turning (see Notes); SZ M (4 feet diameter); ML Champion (15); AL LE; XP 650. 

Notes: 

SA-Poison. A successful bite delivers phantom venom which remains active for 1d4+1 rounds in the victim. Each round the venom remains active, the victim must make a successful saving throw vs. poison or temporarily lose 1 point of Constitution. A slow poison delays the effects of the venom but does not restore Constitution already lost (but a neutralize poison would do the trick). Constitution returns at a rate of 1 point per 24 hours. Victims drained of all Constitution points die and have a 15% chance of rising again as phantom spiders. 

SW-Holy water vials thrown at these creatures inflict 2d4 points of damage (as acid) against their phantom bodies. Because of their shadowy nature, phantom spiders are turned as shadows. 

Originally appeared on WotC’s web site “The Shattered Circle” (1999).

Dungeons & Dragons


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

Do we have stats (3.X or earlier edition) for wraith spiders as comparison?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

In 3.x, they are found in City of the Spider Queen.

I'll compare the 2e stats to those of the 2e wraith spiders in MCA2 and post the differences here.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

Comparing to the 2e wraith-spider:

AC = same
MV = 18 for wraith, web same
HD = 3+2 for wraith, 2+2 for phantom
Damage = same
Size = same
SA = lingering damage (phantom) rather than energy drain (wraith), poison is the same, web is the same
SD = same; weakness also same; both are turned as shadows


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

Ok, so should we take the wraith spider abilities and just reduce HD?  Then change around a few of the SAs?


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

Let's see...

The 3e wraith-spider lost the cool web ability.  

In fact, I'm not real impressed with the 3e update.  They have Int scores of 2, yet even with the Player's Guide to Faerun Monster Update, they lack a number of feats.

Here's what they do have...

Strength Damage (Su): The bite of a Large or smaller wraith spider deals Strength damage, as noted on the table above.

Energy Drain (Su): The bite of a Huge or larger wraith spider bestows negative levels on the victim instead of dealing Strength damage. A Huge wraith spider bestows one negative level, and the Fortitude save to remove it has a DC of 15. A Gargantuan wraith spider bestows two negative levels (DC 22), and a Colossal wraith spider bestows 1d4 negative levels (DC 34). The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Tremorsense (Ex): A wraith spider can automatically sense the location of anything within 60 feet that is in contact with the ground.

Skills: A wraith spider has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

Maybe we should do our own wraith spiders after these.  I can't say I like that Str vs energy drain mechanic at all.  I definitely want to keep the web.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

Reverse-engineering the wraith-spiders, it looks like they are somewhat like templated monstrous spiders.

Hit Dice same for Small to Large, +2 Huge, +8 Gargantuan, +16 Colossal
+2 Str from Small to Huge, Gargantuan same, and -2 for Colossal
Dex set to 15
Con -
Int 2
Cha 1

I think we'd be better off simply starting at Medium (2 HD), like the original phantom spider stat block, then allowing for normal advancement, rather than having multiple slightly-different stat blocks.  We could note any unusual advancement in flavor text.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

I'm agreeable to that.  Unless there's a really good reason to give funny advancement, I'd rather not...


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

OK, if we start with a Medium Monstrous Spider and make it undead, we get this...

Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 2d12 (13 hp) 
Initiative: +3 
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft. 
Armor Class: 14 (+3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 11 
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1 
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6 plus poison) 
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6 plus poison) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Poison, web 
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits 
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +3 
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2 
Skills: Climb +11, Hide +7*, Jump +0*, Spot +4* 
Feats: Weapon Finesse (B) 
Environment: Temperate forests 
Organization: Solitary or colony (2–5) 
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items 
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: 3 HD (Medium) 
Level Adjustment: -

Skills: Monstrous spiders have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A monstrous spider can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Monstrous spiders use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. *Web-spinning spiders have a +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks when using their webs. 

...I left off the poison and web ability descriptions, as they'll need replacements.  

Shall we modify the ability scores at all?  AC needs to improve by 1, so we can either increase natural armor or improve Dex by 1 or 2 points.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Let's go with natural armor.  Probably no need to mess with abilities.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Looks ok.



> SA-Poison. A successful bite delivers phantom venom which remains active for 1d4+1 rounds in the victim. Each round the venom remains active, the victim must make a successful saving throw vs. poison or temporarily lose 1 point of Constitution. A slow poison delays the effects of the venom but does not restore Constitution already lost (but a neutralize poison would do the trick). Constitution returns at a rate of 1 point per 24 hours. Victims drained of all Constitution points die and have a 15% chance of rising again as phantom spiders.




Want to make this a normal poison with 1d6 Con, 1d6 Con?  With spawning, that is.



> SW-Holy water vials thrown at these creatures inflict 2d4 points of damage (as acid) against their phantom bodies. Because of their shadowy nature, phantom spiders are turned as shadows.



I'm happy with holy water as normal undead.  +2 turn resistance, like shadows?


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## Echohawk (Oct 10, 2008)

The phantom spider in Homebrews appears to be missing "Medium Undead" at the top.


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2008)

freyar said:


> Want to make this a normal poison with 1d6 Con, 1d6 Con?  With spawning, that is.




Sure.  Should we limit the create spawn to spiders?  Or do humanoids, etc., undergo a transformation?



freyar said:


> I'm happy with holy water as normal undead.  +2 turn resistance, like shadows?




Sounds good.



Echohawk said:


> The phantom spider in Homebrews appears to be missing "Medium Undead" at the top.




Nice catch.  I must've copied over it with cut n' paste.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2008)

It appears that any creature killed by a phantom spider rises as a phantom spider. Which I like.


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2008)

Sounds good.  And since the phantom spider is mindless, I think the spawn should be "free willed" rather than under the control of their mindless progenitor.



> Phantom spiders spin a foul green-glowing web that drains the very life from those that become ensnared in it: phantom webbing drains 1d4 hit points in the event of casual contact and reqquires a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation to avoid being immobilized for 1d6 rounds. Every round of continued contact drains an additional 1d4 hit points of damage from the cold. The webs only part to silver or +1 or better weapons, although a successful bend bars/lift gates roll will also break a strand.




Here's a stab at it...

Phantom Web (Ex): A phantom spider can throw a foul green-glowing web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet and a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. The web anchors the target in place, allowing no movement. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free.

An entangled creature takes 1d4 points of cold damage each round.  It can escape with a DC x Escape Artist check or burst the web with a DC x Strength check. Both are standard actions. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus. 

A phantom spider can create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 20 feet across. The spider usually positions these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Each 5-foot section of webbing has x hit points and damage reduction 5/magic or silver.

A phantom spider can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2008)

Looks pretty good to me. I was going to suggest negative energy for the web from the original text, but it then specified that it was, in fact, cold damage.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2008)

Since the web glows green, shouldn't the Spot DC be a little lower than 20 (which is from the normal monstrous spider)?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

freyar said:


> Since the web glows green, shouldn't the Spot DC be a little lower than 20 (which is from the normal monstrous spider)?




Good point.  15?  Or even 10?



> As such, phantom spiders are partially immaterial, and easily fade into the darkness, except when they are arroused, their bodies are suffused with a cold witchlight while their eyes gleam with hellish malice.




Improved bonus on Hide checks when immobile in areas of darkness?


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2008)

Let's say a Spot DC of 10.  And yes to the improved Hide bonus.  Let's maybe remove the Hide bonus from using the web (due to the same lighting reason as before) but give them +8 Hide in darkness (mobile or not).


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

Updated.

HP for webbing?

CR 1?  (Same as Medium monstrous spider; the undead immunities seem a tradeoff for loss of bonus hp from Con and vulnerability to turning)

A phantom spider is about 5 feet in diameter and weighs x pounds.  (Monstrous spiders have no listed weight; A jungle spider is about seven feet long and weighs about 250 pounds, so maybe 175 to 200 pounds?)


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

8 hp, a little better than the Medium spider?
CR 1 is good, and so is suggested weight.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

I agree with CR 1.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Updated.

I think we're nearly finished.  Shall we add a special advancement section, noting that Dex remains constant, the progression of web hps, and so forth like monstrous spiders?


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

We could either do that or do our own wraith spiders and put a note that advanced phantom spiders become wraith spiders.  What do you think?  Sounds like the CotSQ wraith spiders are duds, so I'd be up for converting those.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

freyar said:


> We could either do that or do our own wraith spiders and put a note that advanced phantom spiders become wraith spiders.  What do you think?  Sounds like the CotSQ wraith spiders are duds, so I'd be up for converting those.




The wraith spiders appear to be separate, more powerful creatures (but with similar HD), so I'd say we keep 'em separate (but I'm not opposed to doing our own conversion).

How's this, then?

*Advanced Phantom Spiders*

When improving phantom spiders by Hit Dice, follow the standard advancement rules with the following exceptions.

First, Dexterity does not decrease with size.

Poison damage increases as follows:  Large: 1d8, Huge 2d6, Gargantuan 2d8, Colossal 3d6.

Web hit points increase as follows:  Large: 14, Huge 16, Gargantuan 18, Colossal 20.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Looks about right to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2008)

I approve as well.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

Updated.   Finished?


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Looks like it.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

*Wraith-Spider*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE Night
DIET: special
INTELLIGENCE Average (8-10)
TREASURE Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING 3-18
ARMOR CLASS 5
MOVEMENT: 15, Wb 18
HIT DICE 3+2
THACO 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGUATTACK: ld4
SPECIAL ATTACKS Energy drain, poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES Silver or +1 or better weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE 15%
SIZE M (4’ diameter)
MORALE: Champion (15)

Wraith-spiders appear as vaguely formed dark spider shapes whose eight legs trail off into dark mist. They have no physical substance, being more shadow and mist than spider. They attack with mandibles that appear insubstantial, but leave visible wounds. Their bodies are circled with glowihg red pinprick-eyes that look in all directions simultaneously.

They speak no language of their own and do norrespond in any way to a speak with dead spell. They seem to communicate with each other on some instinctive level to coordmate attacks in pack formations, though this is non-verbal in nature.  They understand orders given in the commoa tongue or drow, and can be commanded by those with the ability to command or control undead. They are always encountered as the servants of some more powerful creature.

Wraith-spiders cause damage by several methods.  Their bitee causes 1d4 points of damage from chilling cold; each bite also drains 1 level of experience from an opponent.  This affects hit points and all abilities connected with that level, such as combat ability or spellcasting. Lost, experience levels can only be regained by earning new expeaience or by the restoration spell.

A wraith-spider’s bite also injects a poison. This poison remains active for 2-5 rounds and drains 1 point of Constitution each round it is active. The victim must roll a successful saving throw vs. poison each round to escape the poison's effects for that round. A neutralize poison spell alleviates the effects of the poison entirely, moving it from the victim’s system and restoring any lost Constitution points. A slow poison delap the effects of the poison for the duration of the spell but will not restore Constitution points already lost.  Constitution points can be regained at the rate of 1 per week; a heal spell restores 1-4 points per spell. Victims drained of all Constitution poihts die and have a 25% chance of becoming wraith-spiders themselves.  Characters slain by wraith-spiders can be returned to life with a heal and a resurrection spell cast in that sequence.

These creatures are immune to cold-based attacks and sleep, :harm, and hold spells. Normal weapons do no damage; wraith-spiders are affected only by silver weapons or magical weapons. Holy water vials thrown at these creatures inflict 1d4 points of damage (as acid) against their undead forms.
For unknown reasons, raise dead spells do not affect these creatures, as they do other wraiths, having no effect at all.

Wraith-spiders are tuned as shadows.

These creatures create webs that glow with an eerie dim green light. Anyone touching a web will sustain 1d4 points of damage from the numbing cold of the strands. Characters in contact with the webs must also make a savlng throw vs. paralyzation or be immobilized by the web for 1-6 rounds, sustaining cold damage for each round in the web. Like the wrath-spiders themselves, the webs cannot be cut by normal weapons; they can be cut only by silver or magical edged weapons, or broken by a successful bend bars/lift gates roll.

Habitat/Society: Wraith-spiders were originally created as guardians of treasure or as guards for a particular area of a drow stronghold. Even under someone else’s control, they tend to guard treasure well, any treasure left by their victim being added to their origmal cache. Wraith-spiders are usually encountered in packs since they are created in groups. However, since they do not always turn victims into more wraith-spiders (though there is speculation on what happens if anormal or giant spider is killed by them), they are sometimes encountered alone as attrition takes its toll.

Ecology: Wraith-spiders have no goals or purposes other than to perform their guard tasks and slay the living. Since they are not free to roam at will, they have little effect on the natural order. It is rumored that a wizard named Muiral created them; however, it is more likely that the wraith-spiders were created years before by the drow for their wars against the duergar.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

More or less like phantom spiders (including the cool web) plus energy drain.  Create Spawn will be modified a little.  Incorporeal?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2008)

Perhaps they're corporeal, but can assume incorporeality as an action or when moving, like the phantom template in the MMV.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Perhaps they're corporeal, but can assume incorporeality as an action or when moving, like the phantom template in the MMV.



I like that idea!  Maybe not specifically when moving, but for a certain length of time per day, maybe.  I'm thinking starting as an immediate action (for defense) and ending as a free action.  Other thoughts?


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Great idea!

Shall we take the phantom spider statblock, raise it 1 HD, change Int to 8-10, boost Cha to at least that much, increase speed, and then tinker with the special abilities?


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2008)

Sounds like the right approach.  They're not a whole lot different.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 18, 2008)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Noticed that the poison DC for these and the phantom spiders should be Cha-based, not Con-based.

Create spawn should probably only work with those killed by the poison, as follows:
Create Spawn (Su): Any creature slain by a wraith-spider's poison becomes a free-willed wraith-spider within 1d4 rounds. A creature who becomes a wraith-spider in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

In that case, I think we need to bump the phantom spider to Cha 10 as well.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

I'd agree with that.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

Ditto.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Updated phantom spider.

Updated wraith-spider.


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

Do the wraith spiders need any more special abilities?

If not: 
Skills: put the ranks in Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Hide?
Feats: Ability Focus (energy drain), Ability Focus (poison)?


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Good suggestions.  Considering their insubstantial nature, shouldn't they get a bonus on Move Silently checks as well?



> Their bodies are circled with glowihg red pinprick-eyes that look in all directions simultaneously.




All-around vision?



> They speak no language of their own and do norrespond in any way to a speak with dead spell. They seem to communicate with each other on some instinctive level to coordmate attacks in pack formations, though this is non-verbal in nature. They understand orders given in the commoa tongue or drow, and can be commanded by those with the ability to command or control undead.




How's this?

Wraith-spiders do not speak, but understand Common and Undercommon.  They possess a non-verbal language used to communicate with others of their kind.

Do we want to do anything with the speak with dead bit?



> wraith-spiders are affected only by silver weapons or magical weapons.






> Like the wrath-spiders themselves, the webs cannot be cut by normal weapons; they can be cut only by silver or magical edged weapons, or broken by a successful bend bars/lift gates roll.




DR 5/magic or silver for both spider and web?



> However, since they do not always turn victims into more wraith-spiders (though there is speculation on what happens if anormal or giant spider is killed by them), they are sometimes encountered alone as attrition takes its toll.




Do we want to have a special create spawn if the victim is an arachnid?  Perhaps their energy drain can bestow undeath upon spiders only?


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2008)

I generally like those suggestions.  Remind me: is all-around vision one of those can't be flanked things?


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

freyar said:


> I generally like those suggestions.  Remind me: is all-around vision one of those can't be flanked things?




Yep, and usually accompanied by a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

Updated.

CR 4?  Despite having one less HD, they have more beneficial abilities than the similar wight.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

CR 4 sounds about right.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 23, 2008)

Agreed to 4.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2009)

*Gahonga*
 The gahonga are a race of short, tangible spirits that inhabit bodies of water and rocks. Though neutral in alignment, the men are generally foul-tempered and reluctant to help strangers. Their beautiful daughters, however, take great pleasure in tempting men to commit acts of folly -- such as trying to follow them as they scale a rocky cliff or dive into the depths of a lake. They seldom have any treasure. 

AC 5 NO. 1-10 SZ 3' XP: 2,000
MV 12, 15 sw ML 12 AL cn INT Avg.
HD 6 MR 15% THAC0 15 #AT 1
Dmg 1d6 (weapon) 

 Special Att/Def:  Gahongas can become invisible at will. Anyone hit by a gahonga in combat must save versus paralysis or be rendered motionless for 1d6 rounds. A gahonga can pass through rock at will while moving at its normal movement rate. 

Originally appeared in Legends & Lore (1990).

*GA-HON-GA*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 3-18
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 15%
TREASURE TYPE: P, X(x3)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE; 80%
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
SIZE: S (3’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The Ga-hon-ga, the guardians of the stream, live in rock caves near rivers, and though small in size are possessed of gigantic strength. They are able to pull up the largest of trees with a single twist of the hand, and throw massive rocks into the rivers (to lift the waters when floods threaten). These beings often visit men in their dreams, to lead them into their caves and challenge them to feats of strength such as playing ball with rocks, with the Ga-hon-ga frequently throwing the “balls” high out of sight.  For this reason they are known as “Stone Throwers.”

The Ga-hon-ga also watch over the fish, instructing them, directing their movements, and providing shelter in their deep-water caves, if the fish are being chased by merciless fishermen or confused in the whirl of a flood. The Gahon-ga will free fish caught in traps when they deem it wise. They decide if a season is to be fruitful or barren, and frequently punish abuse or negligence of nature with famine.

When drought occurs, the Iroquois will travel far into the forests to search for signs of the Ga-hon-ga. These signs are little cup-shaped hollows in the mud at the edges of streams, and are the promise of rain. The hollows are carefully scooped up and dried on a fragment of bark in the sun, becoming the “dew cup charms” which are placed in longhouses to attract the Gan-da-yah. There is a 15% chance per day that the Gan-dayah will come looking around a household where the charm is used.

The Ga-hon-ga have strength equal to a stone giant, and can throw and catch rocks with the same degree of ability. If encountered in an area where goodsized rocks are not in easy supply, they will carry their own. They also are armed with daggers and sometimes spears (30%). For river travel, the Ga-hon-ga use magical canoes which will, at times of need, fly into the air with a single stroke of the paddle (acting as a Carpet of Flying). The Ga-hon-ga can control fish with the same power as a Trident of Fish Command, and they can Control Weather as a 12th-level druid. Females and young are found only in lairs.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #61 (1982).


----------



## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Are these two really the same? They have some superficial similarities but also key differences -- like alignment and special abilities.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

I could definitely see them as separate creatures.  Shall we start with the simpler Gahonga?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

How are we going to do the beautiful daughters?


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

Seems to me like different tactics and/or flavor text.  There's not much to indicate a real difference between the males and daughters.

6HD Small fey?  Add a climb speed?


----------



## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Agreed, and a swim speed as well.

Let's try to figure out ability scores.  Average Int is 8-10.  They seem strong for their size, probably not very charismatic, not especially dextrous.

Here are other Small fey...
Nixie (S): Str 7, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 18
Pixie (S): Str 7, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16

How about Str 12, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

We should boost their Con a bit, then, if we're going to be lowering their Dex and Cha so much. Give 'em something, at least.


----------



## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

That's cool, or we can make less drastic reductions in Dex and Cha.  I'm open to suggestions.


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2009)

Why not a little more of all 3?


----------



## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Sure.  They don't have a whole lot more going for them.

Str 12, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 15?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

Those ability scores look a sight better. What else have they got? Climb speed, swim speed...


----------



## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

They've also got SR and this...



> Special Att/Def: Gahongas can become invisible at will. Anyone hit by a gahonga in combat must save versus paralysis or be rendered motionless for 1d6 rounds. A gahonga can pass through rock at will while moving at its normal movement rate.




I'm thinking stunning strike rather than actual paralysis.

Earth glide?

Invisibility as at-will SLA?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

Mm. Stunning strike I like. Agreed that stun is better than paralysis. Do we want to give it to them on every hit? Or do we want to give them Stunning Fist as a bonus feat and say they can use it once per day per HD like a monk can?


----------



## freyar (Feb 8, 2009)

Every hit if it's only for 1 round like the feat.

Earth glide and at-will invisibility also agree.


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggested climb speed?

Does this look OK?

Stunning Strike (Ex): Any creature hit by a gahonga's melee attacks must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d6 rounds. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

I think I like 1d4 rounds better, but it looks good.

Climb 30 ft?
DR 5?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

That stunning strike is, I think, too powerful to be every time it hits. I could see the 1d6 duration (or the 1d4 duration) as a 3/day thing.


----------



## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> That stunning strike is, I think, too powerful to be every time it hits. I could see the 1d6 duration (or the 1d4 duration) as a 3/day thing.



How about 1 round but every time?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

That's more doable, I think. That way, it can't just stun-lock an entire party.


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Heh, I was thinking stun lock too.  

Sounds good.  Updated.

Suggested weaponry?  Something beneficial in areas of cliffs and in water.  Maybe spears?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm getting a clubbing image from these guys, but that might just be from the stunning. A spear applied to specific pressure points would probably also do the trick.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 45 (racial: Climb +8, Swim +8)
Feats: 3



> Though neutral in alignment, the men are generally foul-tempered and reluctant to help strangers.




I'd say that rules out Diplomacy.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Intimidate, on the other hand, is perfectly fine.

Full ranks in Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Intimidate, Know (nature)?

Feats... Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack? Spring Attack in conjunction with earth glide is deliciously nasty, and it gives these guys some much needed punch. 

Speaking of, they don't have earth glide in their Combat write-up.


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2009)

All looks good.


----------



## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Updated.



> The gahonga are a race of short, tangible spirits that inhabit bodies of water and rocks



Environment: Any hills or mountains (near water)?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or x (3-10)

Challenge Rating: x



> They seldom have any treasure.




Treasure: None?  (Or maybe "no coins; half goods; no items" to account for spear-making tools and fishing gear?)

Alignment: Always chaotic neutral?

Advancement: x



> Their beautiful daughters, however, take great pleasure in tempting men to commit acts of folly -- such as trying to follow them as they scale a rocky cliff or dive into the depths of a lake.




Sidebar with just different skill and feat selection?


----------



## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

I just found something that might help flesh them out.

Mannegishi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia redirects here...



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The Mannegishi (singular the same) are a race of trickster people in Cree folklore, similar in nature to the Memegwesi of the Ojibwa. They are described as semi-humanoid, being sexdactylous humans with very thin and lanky arms and legs and big heads minus a nose. According to one Cree schema of the mythology, there are two humanoid races, one being the familiar human species and the other being the "little people", i.e. Mannegishi. These people are said to live between rocks in the rapids. One of their biggest delights -- a completely non-heroic form of trickster behavior -- is to crawl out of the rocks and capsize the canoes of people canoeing through the rapids, spinning them to their death.
> 
> The Mannegishi has attracted interest in recent years due to its possible cryptozoological connections. It is believed by some that the Dover Demon represents a modern sighting of the Mannegishi.




Note that the ga-hon-ga, up next, are chaotic good, so the relatively cruel trickster behavior doesn't really fit.  We might work that in here to help expand the sparse flavor text.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Those guys! OK. Um... agreed that beautiful daughters should get Bluff and Perform as skills.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

Environment is good.  Clan for organization?  CR 3? Always CN.  no coins, 1/4 goods, no items.  7-12HD (Small).  

Agreed to the sidebar.  Swap Intimidate or maybe Listen for Bluff, Move Silently for Perform (sing)?  Swap Spring Attack for Persuasive?  Maybe Athletic for Mobility?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Updated.

A gahonga stands 3 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Gahonga speak Sylvan?  (Maybe the daughters also learn Common?)

Suggestions for expanding the flavor text?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

50 lb?  Languages are good.  Unfortunately, no great ideas for flavor.  Maybe putting something about climbing and swimming for the females, since those are the dangerous situations.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

Trickster figures, protect sources of fresh water, xenophobic... do they get on well with other fey? Other sylvan creatures like elves, centaurs and unicorns? Or are they just generally grumpy? Do the beautiful daughters stay young and beautiful forever, or do they end up old and shrivelled eventually? Perhaps the beautiful daughter is the first stage of their life cycles, where they roam free and find a new territory, then when they settle down, they turn into old, dour males which then reproduce asexually.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

I think they don't get on well with anyone, except maybe when they're young.  But that life cycle of daughter to grumpy old man is gold, we have to use it.


----------



## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Great stuff!  Updated.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

So... done?


----------



## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

I think so.

Back to the ga-hon-ga...

*Ga-hon-ga*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 3-18
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 15%
TREASURE TYPE: P, X(x3)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE; 80%
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
SIZE: S (3’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The Ga-hon-ga, the guardians of the stream, live in rock caves near rivers, and though small in size are possessed of gigantic strength. They are able to pull up the largest of trees with a single twist of the hand, and throw massive rocks into the rivers (to lift the waters when floods threaten). These beings often visit men in their dreams, to lead them into their caves and challenge them to feats of strength such as playing ball with rocks, with the Ga-hon-ga frequently throwing the “balls” high out of sight.  For this reason they are known as “Stone Throwers.”

The Ga-hon-ga also watch over the fish, instructing them, directing their movements, and providing shelter in their deep-water caves, if the fish are being chased by merciless fishermen or confused in the whirl of a flood. The Gahon-ga will free fish caught in traps when they deem it wise. They decide if a season is to be fruitful or barren, and frequently punish abuse or negligence of nature with famine.

When drought occurs, the Iroquois will travel far into the forests to search for signs of the Ga-hon-ga. These signs are little cup-shaped hollows in the mud at the edges of streams, and are the promise of rain. The hollows are carefully scooped up and dried on a fragment of bark in the sun, becoming the “dew cup charms” which are placed in longhouses to attract the Gan-da-yah. There is a 15% chance per day that the Gan-dayah will come looking around a household where the charm is used.

The Ga-hon-ga have strength equal to a stone giant, and can throw and catch rocks with the same degree of ability. If encountered in an area where goodsized rocks are not in easy supply, they will carry their own. They also are armed with daggers and sometimes spears (30%). For river travel, the Ga-hon-ga use magical canoes which will, at times of need, fly into the air with a single stroke of the paddle (acting as a Carpet of Flying). The Ga-hon-ga can control fish with the same power as a Trident of Fish Command, and they can Control Weather as a 12th-level druid. Females and young are found only in lairs.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #61 (1982).


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

3ft stone giants just rock.    More seriously, base all physical scores on stone giants, or just Str?

Is there another name we can use for either these or the gahonga to help distinguish them?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

We could probably get away with the stone giant's other scores, as they aren't that impressive!  Of course, the ga-hon-ga are actually more intelligent (Very = 11-12).

I'm not particularly bothered by the very close name, but we could try something else.

One option is to simply call them "stone throwers" and note within the text they call themselves "ga-hon-ga".  Alternatively, we could call them "Jogah, Ga-Hon-Ga" and continue that naming convention with the other unconverted jogah from that article.   I think I prefer that approach.

Here's another link to more information on these fellows:

Myths and Legends of the New York ... - Google Book Search


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 12, 2009)

We should give them more HD. Why? Because they've got 2, but are as strong as a stone giant and have control weather and/or plant growth as an SLA (how else could they determine whether a season is fruitful or barren?) Speak with animals (aquatic only) also makes sense as an SLA, and they should have wild empathy.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

7 or 8 HD?


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

What the heck, let's do 8 HD.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

Looking pretty good.  Based on "The Ga-hon-ga have strength equal to a stone giant, and can throw and catch rocks with the same degree of ability," let's also give them rock catching.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

Agreed.  Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the ga-hon-ga should get a natural armor bonus. Also, I think we should give it a slam attack and some feats to reflect its love of wrestling. Make it more monk-ish.


----------



## freyar (Feb 14, 2009)

Yeah, it could use an AC boost.  +4 natural?

Slam and bonus monk-ish feats, agreed.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Sounds good.  The only problem with the monk feats is that they are based off Improved Unarmed Strike, which isn't needed if it has true slam attacks.  Would you rather give it a monk's unarmed strike ability?  Or state that it qualifies for feats as if it were a monk of xth level, treating its slam attacks as unarmed strikes?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

Let's treat it as a monk of Xth level. X = CR? HD?


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2009)

X=HD if we go that way.  Or else give it IUS as a bonus feat or something.


----------



## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Yeah, X=HD is easier, methinks.  That makes it 8th-level for a typical one, which would give it 1d8 damage with its unarmed strikes.  Are we giving it flurry of blows as well?

Skills: 77

Feats: 3
Improved Grapple (B), Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, 1 more?



> For river travel, the Ga-hon-ga use magical canoes which will, at times of need, fly into the air with a single stroke of the paddle (acting as a Carpet of Flying).




Unique magic item, or supernatural ability to "animate" a canoe?



> The Ga-hon-ga can control fish with the same power as a Trident of Fish Command, and they can Control Weather as a 12th-level druid.




Fish Command (Su):  Three times per day, a ga-hon-ga may charm up to 14 HD of aquatic animals (Will DC x negates, animals get a +5 bonus if currently under attack by the ga-hon-ga or its allies), no two of which can be more than 30 feet apart. The ga-hon-ga can communicate with the animals as if using a speak with animals spell. Animals making their saving throw are free of control, but they will not approach within 10 feet of the ga-hon-ga. The save DC is Charisma-based.

1/day for control weather?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Umm, so are we giving it an Ex ability that it's treated as a monk of HD level for bonus feats?  Is there a point to giving it a slam in that case?  I'm ambivalent on flurry.

Need to rethink feats due to the above, I guess.

Climb?, Diplomacy?, Handle Animal?, Knowledge (nature), Sense Motive?, Survival, Swim

Su on the canoe, I think. 

1/week maybe on control weather.  I like the fish command.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Supernatural ability to fly, requires a paddle to focus.

Let's make Improved Unarmed Strike the bonus feat, and also give it... Combat Reflexes?


----------



## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Updated.

Does that help clarify, freyar?

Do the flying canoe and pugilist abilties capture our ideas sufficiently?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Thanks to pugulist, may I suggest switching Combat Reflexes for Stunning Fist? Or possibly Point Blank Shot for the rock throwing?


----------



## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Sure.  Do you have a preference for one or the other?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Let's go Point Blank Shot. After all, the rock throwing was emphasized as much (if not more) than the wrestling in the original.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Updated.



> ). These beings often visit men in their dreams, to lead them into their caves and challenge them to feats of strength such as playing ball with rocks, with the Ga-hon-ga frequently throwing the “balls” high out of sight.




Should they have dream as a SLA?


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Looks great!

Yes to dream, maybe 1/week?


----------



## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

Let's go 1/day, since it isn't that powerful of an ability.

Updated.

Damage reduction 5/cold iron?

Environment: Temperate hills or forests (near water)?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or tribe (3-18)?

Challenge Rating: 6?

TREASURE TYPE: P, X(x3)
Q: 1-4 gems: 50%
X: Maps or Magic Items: 1 misc. magic plus 1 potion: 60%
Treasure: No coins, half goods, triple items (mostly potions)?

Alignment: Always chaotic good?

Advancement: 9-16 HD (Small)?

Level Adjustment: +5?  (Stone giant is +4, but the ga-hon-ga has more special abilities)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

No coins, half goods, triple items, and we give them the item master ability for potions only?

CR 6 seems right.


----------



## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Looking good.

Yes, yes, yes, CR 6 seems ok, yes, yes, yes, yes...


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

Updated.

While looking for a description, I found the following at the bottom of the original article...



> The Jo-ga-oh can never be surprised.  All of the little people are described as pale yellow in color and are completely dressed during all times of the year.  Leggings, breechclout and a cape are worn by males. Females wear kneelength skirts to which is added a large skin cloak in bad weather.
> 
> Different names are given to the little people by other Iroquois tribes. The Onondagas call them Che-kak-eh-hen-wah, “Small People” or “Little Men”; the Mohawks know them as the Yah-yo-nen-us-yoks, “Stone Throwers”; the Tuscaroras call them Ehn-kwa-si-yea, “No Men At All.”




That first sentence implies a racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks, maybe Improved Init as a bonus feat?

As for the description, in the illustration they look like Native American elves, dressed as described above.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

Can never be surprised = +4 racial bonus to Spot and Listen, and uncanny dodge?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.


----------



## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

So... done?


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

Ta-da!  

*Oh-do-wa*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 5-30
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 1
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: +4 with bow
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE; 30%
INTELLIGENCE: Genius
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
SIZE: S (3’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The Oh-do-was
The most wise and mysterious of the little people, the under-earth dwellers, are the Oh-do-was of the darkness. Seldom do men recognize them in the gloom. They hold jurisdiction over the sunless domain beneath the earth, where live the creatures of darkness, and the prisoners that have offended the regions of light.

The Oh-do-was dwell in a dim world with forests and broad plains, abounding with the types of animals usually found in those environments. Though all who dwell here wish to escape, all are told to be satisfied and live where Fate has placed them. Among the mysterious underground denizens are white buffaloes, who attempt many times to reach the sunlight and gallop with their brown brothers over the plains, but the path up is guarded. At times they try to rush through in a large group, but the Oh-dowas gather their hunters to thin out the unruly herds with arrows. It is said that a red cloud in the heavens is a sign to the Indians that this hunt is on. The people rejoice that the Oh-do-was are watchful and brave in keeping order in the world. 

Other captives of the Oh-do-was are venomous reptiles and creatures of death which hide in the deep shadows. Despite the great size of these creatures, it is not often that the Oh-do-was are unable to throw them back from the door to the light world. Sometimes one will escape, whizzing out into the darkness, and spread its poisonous breath across the forests, creating a pestilence that kills all. The other monsters, jealous of the escape, seek areas where springs sprout from the surface and poison the waters.  Where a deep root has pushed its way into the underworld in search of water, they tear it with their fangs, which destroys the earth tree. Such happenings are rare, for the Oh-do-was would not willingly allow death to escape to wreak its vengeance on their friends.

At certain times, the Oh-do-was will visit their relations on earth. They will hold festivals in the forests at night and use circles under deep wood trees, where grass refuses to grow, for dances. They enjoy the soft rays of the moon but are blinded by the sun. The animals of the night are wary of these little people, for sometimes offensive intruding creatures are captured and taken to the underworld. The animals cannot expect to be ransomed by the guardians of the light, for no Jo-ga-oh ever questions the actions of another.

The Oh-do-was are armed with either short bow and dagger (60%) or spear (40%). For every five Oh-do-was in a band there will be one magic-user (roll d6 for level: 1-2 = 4th, 3-5 = 5th, 6 = 6th). For every 15 encountered there will be an additional magic-user of 8th (roll of 1-4) or 9th (roll of 5-6) level. If there are over 25 in a band, their leader will be a 12th level magic-user. There is a 5% chance per level for each magic-user that the individual will have a usable magic item.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #61 (1982).


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

There's almost more about the monsters they hold back than the oh-do-was themselves.  Should we give them all sorcerer casting?  Some kind of special arrows?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 21, 2009)

They sound more like, well... people than monsters. Small, superintelligent people who live in the Underdark and keep menageries of surface-world monsters. I think we should just give them HD by class, a racial bonus to attack with bows, spell resistance and a high Int. LA +2 or +3, like a duergar or svirfneblin.


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2009)

Yes.  Combine this with a little innate spellcasting, maybe the bow bonus could instead(?) be some imbuing ability ripped off the arcane archer.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 21, 2009)

I don't think I like them with innate spellcasting, as it says there's a chance of having a spellcaster with them. We could say that they qualify for the arcane archer prestige class, though, or that any arrow they fire has a +1 or +2 enhancement bonus.


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 21, 2009)

If they're not going to have racial HD, then they should be humanoids then.  Statting a fey as a 1st level warrior doesn't work because they have the wrong HD type.  (Yes I know uldra were statted as warriors. I still say they shouldn't have been.)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 21, 2009)

Jaebrin from MMV have the same deal, being fey that swap out their racial HD for class levels. So, for that matter, do pixies, which are core.


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 21, 2009)

Pixies aren't presented as 1st level warriors though; they just have 1 hit die.


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2009)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Pixies aren't presented as 1st level warriors though; they just have 1 hit die.



Huh, I'd missed that little exception.  Why don't we do that here?


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Pixies also advance by HD, though.

Other precedents exist, though:  The uldra in Frostburn are fey 1st-level warriors, and the killoren in Races of the Wild only advance by character class.


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

I still think I like treating them like pixies.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

So allow them to advance to 2-3 HD, or by character class?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 24, 2009)

Sure, with the provision that if they take a character level, it replaces their HD.


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

Yup, sounds right.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Let's figure out ability scores.  Genius intellect translates to 17-18.  Dex is probably decent with their archery skills.  Con is probably average.  Wis is probably a tad higher than Cha, and both lower than Int.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 24, 2009)

Str 11, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 11?


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

How about switching Con and Cha?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 25, 2009)

Fair enough.


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2009)

Works for me too.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Shall we give them good darkvision since they are associated with darkness and the underworld?

Devloping an idea upthread...

Sylvan Archer (Ex):  An oh-do-wa is treated as an elf for purposes of meeting the prerequisites of feats, prestige classes (such as arcane archer), and magic items related to archery.

Enhance Arrow (Su):  Every nonmagical arrow an oh-do-wa nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the oh-do-wa need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an oh-do-wa's magic arrows only function for that oh-do-wa.  This ability stacks with the arcane archer's class feature of the same name (thus the enhancement bonus is +2 at 1st level, +3 at 3rd level, +4 at 5th level, +5 at 7th level, and +6 at 9th level).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 26, 2009)

That looks good to me!


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Damage reduction 5/cold iron, like a pixie, or less?

Darkvision 90 ft?

Spell resistance equal to 7 + class levels?  (30% tranlates to CR+7)

Do we want any other special abilities?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 26, 2009)

All of the above sounds good. Perhaps their affinity for monsters gives them wild empathy, which they can use without penalty on magical beasts?


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Great idea!  Updated.

Skills: 40
Climb, Hide, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival?

Feats: 1
Track?

Environment: Underground?

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Always lawful neutral?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

Let's go usually LN. Your skills and feats appeal, although we might want to give them Track as a bonus feat and give them Point Blank Shot otherwise. I'd be fine without doing that, though.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

> They enjoy the soft rays of the moon but are blinded by the sun.




Give them light blindness or light sensitivity?



> The Oh-do-was are armed with either short bow and dagger (60%) or spear (40%). For every five Oh-do-was in a band there will be one magic-user (roll d6 for level: 1-2 = 4th, 3-5 = 5th, 6 = 6th). For every 15 encountered there will be an additional magic-user of 8th (roll of 1-4) or 9th (roll of 5-6) level. If there are over 25 in a band, their leader will be a 12th level magic-user. There is a 5% chance per level for each magic-user that the individual will have a usable magic item.




Favored class wizard?  Ranger?  Both?

Ranger seems to fit their flavor much better.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

Favored class ranger, but note that they include wizards in their ranks. Light blindness works for me.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Updated.

CR 1?

Solitary, pair, or tribe (5-30 plus one 4th- to 6th-level wizard per 5 adults and one 8th- to 12th-level wizard leader)?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

CR and organization I agree with. The level adjustment, however, I do not. Let's say +3. I don't think one of these guys is substantially more powerful than, say, a svirfneblin.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

Looks done to me.


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2009)

I've missed a lot... these look good!


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

I'd like to finish off the last of the jogah, but I'm going to start a "Finishing off the Fey" thread so as not to hijack this thread from the waiting plants.

Like this one.

*Spear Grass*
AC:7 MV:0 HD:7 hp:49 #AT:4 Dmg:1-6 each SA:Blood drain (1-4) SD:Nil AL:N THAC0:13 

"The path has turned to parallel a stream on one side and a stony bluff on the other. The trail twists mund looming rocky outcroppings. Tall stands of bamboo-like growth stretch along the trail's edges, lending a tenuous footing in the rocky soil. You notice that it has become uncommonly quiet for some time. Approximately 60 yards ahead, the path descends to ford the creek, which has drawn very near. A companion's foot slip and there is a loud crack of a snapping branch. The sound of rustling arises from one grove of bamboo-like plants near the stream--and then a spearlike object is flung to land, point first, in the path before you."

This cluster of spear grass is but one of several that line the bank the heroes have walked along for several minutes. The plants track by sound and then communicate with others of their kind using a rustling language. The party has just passed within short range of this cluster and it has flung one spear in an attempt to elicit more noise. Then the spear grass will alert the rest of the clusters to the presence of prey. Once alerted, the way back will become a gauntlet run of deadly missiles. Ahead, beyond the stream, there are no more stands of spear grass, and the characters will be out of range in two or three rounds.

Spear grass clusters have 24 missiles that they may fling four at a time, and another 12 immature stalks that may be used in melee with any creatures that attack it. The spears are attached to a thin hollow filament through which the plant may suck body fluids once prey is impaled, draining an additional 1d4 points each round. These stalks are replaced at the rate of 12 a week.

Originally appeared in I13 - Adventure Pack I (1987).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Alright, flings shoots like a manticore, then melee attacks attach and blood drain?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

That sounds about right.

Should individual clusters be Large?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

I can agree to all that too.  Sounds like they have tremorsense or maybe blindsight.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Good call.

Shall we figure out ability scores?

I'm thinking high Dex, average to decent Str, and decent to high Con.  Int is not given, but they have at least animal intellect, maybe higher based on the tactics described.  Wis is probably slightly higher than Dex, and Cha is probably similar to the other two.   Suggestions?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Str 14, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 20, Cha 15?  Or thereabouts?


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Let's go with those.  Added to Homebrews.

Retain x3 crit multiplier of spears?

The text contradicts itself, giving the spear grass 4 attacks in the stat block, but noting that it can attack with the 12 "spear-shoots".  Shall we limit it to 4, since 12 attacks may send the CR skyrocketing?

The attach seems a bit off.  Maybe model off this critter?

Attach (Ex): If an anguillian hits with its bite attack, it uses its powerful jaws to latch onto the opponent’s body and automatically deals bite damage each round it remains attached. An attached anguillian loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 14.

An attached anguillian can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached anguillian through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the anguillian.

Blood Drain (Ex): An anguillian that begins its turn attached to an opponent bores into its opponent's body and begins to drain fluids. It deals 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round it remains attached.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

Well, that's how dire weasel attach works. I think that's fair.

Any particular reason these are so wise?

Perhaps they can fire four spears at a time, and get 12 a day?


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Any particular reason these are so wise?




I'll let freyar field that one.  



demiurge1138 said:


> Perhaps they can fire four spears at a time, and get 12 a day?




I'm fine with the ranged volley.  Its the melee attacks I find questionable.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'll let freyar field that one.




You're the one that said Wis should be higher than Dex. Did you mean Int, perhaps?


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

I sure did!  What on earth was I thinking?  

Scale it back to 15-16?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2009)

Agreed to 15.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

Updated.

Thoughts on the number of melee "spear-shoots" it can employ?

Blindsense or tremorsense?   Range of chosen sense?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2009)

Blindsight, yes? 60 feet? How about 4 melee attacks? Perhaps it can only attach to one foe at a time?


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2009)

The attach is bothering me a little.  I generally prefer to go with standard mechanics, but, the way I understand the anatomy of these things (sort of like a stand of bamboo), having one shoot attached to someone shouldn't really make the whole thing (the other shoots) lose the Dex bonus to AC.  Am I not picturing these right?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

I, too, am bothered by it.  Perhaps we could make it function more like a harpoon attack?

Maybe modify this to fit...

Impale (Ex): If a cadaver collector has successfully grappled a Medium or smaller creature, it can attempt to impale the creature on its back spikes by making a successful grapple check. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If the collector successfully impales a creature, the creature takes 4d8+15 points of damage and is considered pinned. Each round, the creature takes another 2d8 points of damage as the movement of the cadaver collector causes additional pain to the impaled creature.

The creature cannot break free unless it makes a DC 28 Strength check. Success indicates the creature is free of the spike but takes an additional 2d8 points of damage in the process. Failure means the creature takes 4d8 points of damage and remains pinned in place. An ally can try to free an impaled creature with a DC 20 Strength check.

Once a cadaver collector has a creature or creatures impaled on its back spikes, it is no longer considered to be in a grapple and can attack other opponents without penalty. It cannot use its slam attacks against impaled opponents. Creatures that get free of a cadaver collector become its immediate and most urgent targets. It typically pursues such creatures exclusively if it has any chance of catching and impaling them again.

A cadaver collector's back spikes can hold up to 4 Medium creatures, 16 Small creatures, or 64 Tiny creatures. Creatures smaller than Tiny are too miniscule to be impaled on the collector's back spikes, although the collector can still deal 4d8+15 points of damage to such opponents by grinding them into its back spikes with a successful grapple check once it has them grappled.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

Hmmm.....

Impale (Ex): If a spear grass successfully hits a creature with a spear-shoot attack, it impales the victim on the shoot and can drain blood.  The impaled creature is considered to be grappled, but the spear grass is not.

The creature can break free with a  DC X Strength check. Success indicates the creature is free but takes an additional XdX points of damage in the process. Failure means the creature takes XdX points of damage and remains pinned in place. An ally can try to free an impaled creature with a DC X Strength check and can avoid damage with a DC X Heal check.

A spear grass can hold one creature per spear-shoot.  Creatures of Diminutive size and smaller are too small to be held effectively.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

Looks good!

The check DC for self-removal per the cadaver collector appears to be Str-based, while the "assisted removal" options works out to be 10 + Str modifier (rather than 10 + 1/2 HD + Str modifier).

So in this case, it would be DC 15 and DC 12, respectively.   Does that work?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2009)

Works for me.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2009)

Updated.

1d3 damage for the successful extraction, 1d6 for failure and remaining impaled?

Camouflage?

Skills: 10

Feats: 3
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2009)

Camouflage and feats sound good.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

All that works.

I can't even fathom what kind of skills this could use, given that it has blindsight.  Spot maybe for stuff beyond the range of the blindsight?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

> A companion's foot slips and there is a loud crack of a snapping branch. The sound of rustling arises from one grove of bamboo-like plants near the stream--and then a spearlike object is flung to land, point first, in the path before you.






> This cluster of spear grass is but one of several that line the bank the heroes have walked along for several minutes. The plants track by sound and then communicate with others of their kind using a rustling language. The party has just passed within short range of this cluster and it has flung one spear in an attempt to elicit more noise. Then the spear grass will alert the rest of the clusters to the presence of prey.




It sounds like a strong case for Listen, eh?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2009)

Listen sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Environment: Any?  (Wikipedia says bamboo grows in wide ranges of climates)

Organization: Solitary or stand (2-20)?

Challenge Rating: 4-5? (high potential damage output plus blood drain = nasty)

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Always neutral

Advancement: 10-14 HD (Large); 15-21 HD (Huge)?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2009)

You seem to have given it the wrong Con mod for hit points--drop those from +54 to +27. It's got a high damage output, but its AC is garbage and it's immobile. I'd recommend CR 4.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

All of that works for me!


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Good catch, and shouldn't that be +21 from Con?

Updated.

Anything else?  Further suggestions for flavor text?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Yeah, +21.

Well, the "although" in the flavor text should probably be "since" to my way of thinking.  But I'm not coming up with much else at the moment.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

_Although _I used that word, I have _since _found that I agree with you.  I could, _however_, have used _despite being_.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

You're just having too much fun now.


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

*Sunflower, Giant*
AC:8 MV:0 HD:3 hp:15 #AT:1 Dmg:1 SA:Nil SD:Immune to heat AL:N THAC0:16

"Ahead, the forest seems to clear, for sunlight can be seen streaming though the woods."

This is actually a stand of six transformed sunflowers. The sunflowers send forth a ray of light equivalent to sunlight and warm the clearing in which they grow. If a creature attempts to harm the sunflowers, they spit exploding seeds at their attacker at the rate of four per flower per round. Each blossom has 24 seeds. Once a blossom is cut it continues to glow for one hour and then will wilt and die. A flower will also wilt if it fires all of its seeds.

Originally appeared in I13 - Adventure Pack I (1987).


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Are these the size of regular sunflowers?  Then I guess I'd say Small; they'd be tall, but they're quite skinny for their height.

Fire seeds springs to mind for the exploding seeds.  They could function like the acorns at relatively lowish CL.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Nothing seems to indicate anything other than usual size, so I'd agree with your assessment.

Good call on fire seeds!

Str 1, Dex 20, Con 10, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2009)

Sure.  So rather than making the seeds an SLA, we can make it an Su with Con-based DC.

Hmm, these are "giant sunflowers."  Maybe we should make them Medium.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

It might be interesting to treat their projected light as actual sunlight, and perhaps have the damage from their sunseeds deal damage similar to searing light, rather than fire, dealing additional damage to light-sensitive creatures.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 25, 2009)

I like the idea of making them light based, not fire based. I say we run with it.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Agreed!


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## Melatuis (Mar 26, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Updated.

Do the sunbeam and sunseeds abilties reflect this sufficiently?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

The sunbeam looks good.  Comments on seeds: I think the Ref save can just negate the splash damage, since it's just 1 point to begin with, unless you're counting one save for overlapping splash damage.  Should we specify undead as taking extra damage, as for many spells?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Good point on the save.   Would it work better to eliminate the "divide as it sees fit" part and simply make each seed deal 1d3 or 1d4 damage?

I'm ambivalent on the undead part...is it a function of the light itself, or the divine nature of the spell?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2009)

Let's have it be 1d4 per seed, and doing extra damage to the undead--it's generally accepted that light based spells hurt the undead, regardless if it's a cleric casting them.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Agreed to both.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Is this better?

Sunseeds (Su):  A giant sunflower may fire up to four of its seeds each round as special splash weapons with a range of 100 feet. A ranged touch attack roll is required to strike the intended target. The giant sunflower may spread these attacks among multiple targets as it desires.

Each seed explodes in a flash of light upon striking any hard surface, dealing 1d4 points of damage (1d6 damage to undead). In addition to its regular damage, it deals 1 point of splash damage. A creature particularly vulnerable to bright light takes double damage, while a construct or inanimate object takes only half damage.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

A giant sunflower possesses 24 seeds.  It produces new seeds 24 hours later.  A giant sunflower that fires all its seeds wilts and dies immediately.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Rather than 1d6 to undead, I might throw undead in with the "creatures particularly vulnerable to bright light" bit.  That doesn't include things like orcs with light sensitivity, though, does it?  Should we say that creatures with light sensitivity are dazzled if they are within the splash radius?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

The problem with that is the case of undead that are sensitive to light.  Searing light hits them with even greater damage.

I like the light sensitivity/dazzled bit.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2009)

Ahhh, I get what you're saying.  Sure, let's leave it as is for undead.

So let's add the dazzled bit, then.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Sure.  Updated.



> SD:Immune to heat




Immunity to fire, or instead expand the light theme to immunity to spells and effects with the light descriptor?

Should we add some flavor text that the seeds retain their offensive capabilities if harvested from a live plant for say, 24 hours?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2009)

Immune to searing light and spells with the light descriptor, sure (note that searing light is, for whatever reason, not a light spell).


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

That _is_ odd.  Updated.

Environment: Temperate and warm plains and hills?

Organization: Solitary or stand (2-6)?

Challenge Rating: 1?

Treasure: None?

Advancement: x


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2009)

CR 2, I think. 4d4 damage to a 1st level character could take out even a fighter in one round. Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium), 7-9 HD (Large)?


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2009)

All that sounds good.  

Regarding harvesting seeds, I like that idea, but maybe add that the sunflowers don't react well to being harvested.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Updated.  All done?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

*Caladrius*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Marsh
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Diurnal
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: 3, Fl 15(D)
HIT DICE: 1/2
THAC0: 20
NO OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1 point
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Immune to disease
SIZE: S (3'-4')
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 7

The caladrius is a magical, pure white marsh bird the size of a heron. It possesses unusual healing powers that work on people with internal ailments, such as diseases of the liver. It may also be able to cure magical diseases.
When a caladrius is brought before a diseased person, the bird's reaction will determine whether the patient will recover. Roll reaction when the bird is within 5 feet. On a reaction of cautious, threatening, or hostile, the caladrius turns its head away from the patient: It will not cure him.

On an indifferent or friendly reaction, it stares at the patient for one round. The bird's pure white feathers will turn gray and unhealthy as its absorbs the sickness into itself. The person's sickness is cured and he or she feels better immediately, but the caladrius catches the disease! To recover, the caladrius must be allowed to fly off high into the air, where the sun's rays purify it. Unfortunately, the caladrius cannot be tamed, so this means it escapes.

Combat: Faced with people seeking to capture it, the caladrius tries to fly off. A caladrius is immune to cause disease spells.

Habitat/Society: These rare birds live in wetlands in distant parts of Italy. They feed on small fish, and are solitary except for a brief mating period.

Ecology: A captive caladrius is worth 500-1,500 g.p. - more if no priests in the area have magic capable of curing diseases. The mere rumor of a caladrius can summon scores of net-wielding hunters to an area! Captured birds are hooded and caged to prevent them from looking at the wrong patient. They dislike captivity, and cannot be trained, so when they fly off to purify themselves they rarely return to their owners. Luring them back requires imitating their mating calls, which can be accomplished by a successful Animal Lore check at a -10 penalty.

Originally appeared in HR5 - Glory of Rome Campaign Sourcebook (1993).

Caladrius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

Very interesting.  Italy, really?

Seems like a variant on remove disease, I guess.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2009)

The "indifferent or friendly reaction" bit makes it sound like a victim (or its would-be healers) must succeed on a Diplomacy check to improve the caladrius's attitude before it will use its powers.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2009)

Agreed!  Though in 3e speak, maybe friendly or helpful.

Small magical beast, 1/2 HD still?


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## JiCi (Apr 28, 2009)

Maybe not 1/2 HD, if this bird can cast _remove disease_ as a spell-like ability, it must at least have the minimum HD equal to the minimum Caster Level of the spell, or at most 3 HD lower.

How about starting from your Giant Crane stats, taken from the Creature Catalogue ?

Giant Crane
Medium Animal  
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16) 
Initiative: +3 
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 50 ft. (poor) 
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 13 
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3 
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+3) 
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+3) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: - 
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, wading 
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +4  
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6  
Skills: Hide +5, Listen +8, Move Silently +5, Spot +12 
Feats: Alertness, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse* 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Environment: Any marsh 
Organization: Solitary, pair, flock (10-30) or great flock (31-50 plus 3-12 fledgelings) 
Challenge Rating: 1 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large) 
Level Adjustment: -*


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

I'd rather keep it low HD (maybe 1?), as an interesting means for groups to rid themselves of diseases before the spell is readily available.  Maybe place the size and physical stats between the Medium crane and the Tiny ibis.

Ibis
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 1/4d8 (1 hp)
Initiative: +3 (+3 Dex)
Speed: 20 ft., fly 50 ft. (poor)
AC: 16 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 13
Attacks: Bite +5 melee
Damage: Bite 1d3-2
Face/Reach: 2 1/2 ft. by 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Wading
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +11
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (bite)*
Climate/Terrain: Any marsh
Organization: Flock (2-12)
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 1 HD (Tiny); 2 HD (Small)*


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

In between those two works for me.


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## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2009)

There's no reason it needs to have the HD of its caster level. Just give it the CL. I agree with 1 HD.


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> On an indifferent or friendly reaction, it stares at the patient for one round. The bird's pure white feathers will turn gray and unhealthy as its absorbs the sickness into itself. The person's sickness is cured and he or she feels better immediately, but the caladrius catches the disease! To recover, the caladrius must be allowed to fly off high into the air, where the sun's rays purify it. Unfortunately, the caladrius cannot be tamed, so this means it escapes.




Perhaps it should also be able to remove the sickened (and possibly nauseated) conditions from a creature as well?

Note that the text contradicts itself, stating several times that the caladrius is immune to disease, yet above it indicates that it can be affected, and must be purified by sunlight.   How would you like to handle that?  The latter option is more flavorful.

Do we want to retain the +4 racial bonus on Spot checks from the ibis and giant crane?


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

Yes to sickened and nauseated.

I like purification by sunlight.  Maybe make the ability such that it is immune to disease outdoors during daylight?

Spot bonus sounds ok.


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## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2009)

Purification by sunlight and removing those status conditions sounds good to me too.


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

How are these?

Absorb Impurities (Su):  As a full-round action, a caladrius may absorb illness from a creature.   This removes any disease from the victim, as well as the 
sickened and nauseated conditions.   The impurities are transferred to the caladrius, whose feathers turn an unhealthy gray pallor.   In order to use this ability, the caladrius must have line of sight to its target.   A caladrius will generally not use this ability unless its attitude is improved to friendly or helpful.

Purification by Sunlight (Su):  Exposure to natural sunlight removes any disease from the caladrius.  It also removes the sickened and nauseated conditions.  When outdoors during daylight, a caladrius is thus effectively immune to disease, sickness, and nausea.


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

Excellent!

Given that these have animal Intelligence, should we specify Handle Animal DCs or conditions in which Diplomacy may be used to improve their attitude?


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## Shade (May 5, 2009)

That's a good question...one for which I do not have an answer.


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## freyar (May 5, 2009)

How about Handle Animal checks used on the Diplomacy "Influencing NPC Attitudes" table, and Diplomacy can be used in conjunction with speak with animals or similar magic, and Wild Empathy works as usual?  Starts as either indifferent or unfriendly and must be made friendly or helpful?


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## Shade (May 8, 2009)

Good idea.  In fact, the following seems to support Handle Animal nicely...



> They dislike captivity, and cannot be trained, so when they fly off to purify themselves they rarely return to their owners. Luring them back requires imitating their mating calls, which can be accomplished by a successful Animal Lore check at a -10 penalty.


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## demiurge1138 (May 8, 2009)

And, since they're magical beasts, the increased difficulty's already built in! Unless we want to increase it more.


----------



## freyar (May 10, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> And, since they're magical beasts, the increased difficulty's already built in! Unless we want to increase it more.



Brilliant!


----------



## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Indeed!

So start 'em at indifferent, and require that they be moved to helpful?


----------



## freyar (May 11, 2009)

That's a DC 30 check.  Is that too hard at this CR?  We could just require them to become friendly; maybe helpful to get more potent benefits?


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## demiurge1138 (May 11, 2009)

Agreed to friendly, rather than helpful.


----------



## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Updated.   Does that sufficiently cover the Handle Animal check?


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

I think so.  We could state that it will only remove nauseated/sickened or magical diseases if improved to helpful, but I'm not sure about whether we need to do that.

Also, I just realized that speak with animals won't actually work on this, because it's a magical beast.  Should we put in an exception?


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2009)

Agreed to the exception. And nauseated/sickened aren't that strong, so we shouldn't need helpfulness to get those.


----------



## Shade (May 12, 2009)

Exception it is.

Skills: 4

Feats: Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Spot & Listen, Alertness?  Those seem appropriate for sensitive creatures like this.


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2009)

How about ranks in Sense Motive?


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

I could see that, though we might need to provide some directions for the DM on how to use it (does it affect the caladrius's reaction vs Handle Animal, etc?).


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

Good question.  Perhaps the caladrius may use its ranks in Sense Motive in place of the static DC for Handle Animal checks?   We could give it Skill Focus and/or a racial bonus on the skill as well to make it worthwhile.


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Works for me!  Skill Focus or Alertness are fine for the feat, but I think a racial bonus is good either way.  +4?


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## demiurge1138 (May 14, 2009)

Agreed to opposing with Sense Motive.


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## freyar (May 14, 2009)

In that case, should we remove "using the "Influencing NPC Attitudes" table of the Diplomacy skill" and add "opposed by the caladrius's Sense Motive check"?  At the end, we can note that the caladrius's Sense Motive gets a bonus when opposing Handle Animal checks due to being a magical beast.


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## Shade (May 14, 2009)

That sounds like an excellent idea.


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## freyar (May 14, 2009)

With that change, the racial bonus to Sense Motive, etc, is this basically done?  I'd say these are about CR 1 as a "social encounter."  Let's give them some advancement: 2 HD (Small), 3-4 HD (Medium)?


----------



## Shade (May 14, 2009)

Updated.

A caladrius stands 3 to 4 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (May 14, 2009)

3 ft, 4-5lb, based on great blue herons.


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## Shade (May 14, 2009)

With that, are we finished?


----------



## freyar (May 14, 2009)

If everyone else agrees, sure!


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2009)

Mmhm!


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## Leopold (Jun 2, 2009)

what's next ?


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

We'll get back to this eventually.

It seems about 10 to 12 threads at a time is managable, so I tend to swap between them.

A few have high interest, like the prehistoric and real-world creatures, so those are almost always going.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

And here's the other worm to round out our batch of 10...

*Glitterworm*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore (See Below)
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -1
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 18
THACO: 5
NO. ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Acid jet, camouflage
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immunity to acid, earth-based attacks
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (30' long)
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 16,000

The glitterworm is a massive subterranean predator closely related to the purple worm.  However, it has the ability to change color to match any metallic or earth hue; its natural color seems to be slate gray, but this is by no means certain.  A long worm with a leechlike mouth, it is one of the few terrestrial predators that prey son creatures from the Elemental Plane of Earth.  Unlike its surface-dwelling relative, it is only 5 to 6 feet in diameter.

Combat:  After attracting prey by giving itself the glitter of gold, silver, platinum, or another precious metal, the glitterworm first employs its breath weapon, squirting a jet of acid all over its foe and inflicting 3-30 points of damage, or half that if a saving throw vs. breath weapon is successful.  (This acid jet extends to 70 feet and is a uniform 5 feet wide.)  Then, as the worm lunges forward, its great leechlike, acid-beslobbered jaws fasten upon the prey, causing 2-20 points of damage each round the glitterworm remains attached.  The acid flows freely even after the initial attack, requiring victims to make saving throws for worn or carried items as well.  The glitterworm’s leechlike grip cannot be broken unless a successful Strength roll is made (at a -1 penalty).  Because of its specialized attack and the nature of its toughest prey, this creature is immune both to acids and to all earth-based attacks.

Habitat/Society:  Glitterworms are solitary predators, coming together only during the mating season.  A couple will meet, intertwine for an hour, then go their separate ways.  The female lays a single egg: a lustrous, shiny gray orb that is completely inedible to all terrestrial creatures.  Creatures of elemental earth can eat it, however, which is antoher reason why glitterworms go out of their way to destroy such predators.  Aside from this, no special care is taken with the egg, and indeed, none is necessary.

Ecology:  The glitterworm is the ultimate omnivore, eating not only flesh and vegetation but minerals as well.  Indeed, its ability to devour elemental earth is almost certainly an outgrowth of its tendency to eat normal stone.  Xorn are favorite targets, and a glitterworm will pass up other prey if a xorn is in the area.  Dwarves, gnomes, and other demihumans or humans who delve underground are also regarded as choice fare.  It is to attract these two favorite foods that the glitterworm evolved the ability to change colors and odors to look and smell like any type of precious metal, including such rare ones as mithral and adamantite.  The intended prey sees what looks like a narrow vein of rare ore, rushes up to start eating or mining it, and receives quite a rude surprise!

Because of various unsavory changes in metabolism in the course of its evolution, the glitterworm has no natural enemies except on the Elemental Plane of Earth, and even creatures from that plane are more likely to be prey than predators.  However, adventurers and evil wizards being what they are, there are many attempts made on these creatures, either to kill them or capture their 3’-diameter eggs to raise guardian beasts.  Since a glitterworm can bite into and digest anything with its acidic jaws, it can literally eat its way out of any enclosure not protected by magic.  However, fools keep on trying, as a sizeable number of reckless or power-mad wizards are willing to pay 5,000 gp for a single egg.  The creature’s acid is also much in demand by alchemists.  A single vial of the stuff can sell for up to 100 gp.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #267 (2000).


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Although length in only listed at 30 feet long, these were actually larger than 2e purple worms (which were 25 feet).  I'd propose keeping them to scale with their cousins, and thus increase these to say 100 feet long.   That would explain the higher HD for the glitterworm as well.

In 2e, purple worms grew up to 8-9 feet in diameter.  I think we can stick with the 5 feet in diameter for the glitteworm conversion, to help explain what they swallow.

Purple worm (G): 16 HD, Str 35, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8, The body of a mature purple worm is 5 feet in diameter and 80 feet long, weighing about 40,000 pounds.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2009)

Agreed to boosting size to Gargantuan.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Currently, it has the exact same ability scores as the purple worm.  Wanna boost Str and/or Con a tad due to the slightly larger size?

The acid jet sounds like a 70-foot line of acid.   Usable once every 1d4 rounds like standard breath weapons?



> Then, as the worm lunges forward, its great leechlike, acid-beslobbered jaws fasten upon the prey, causing 2-20 points of damage each round the glitterworm remains attached. The acid flows freely even after the initial attack, requiring victims to make saving throws for worn or carried items as well.




It sounds an awful lot like ooze acid.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

Ooze acid combined with an improved grab/chew combo, it sounds like. I'd be okay increasing Con only, but if you want to boost Str too, go right ahead.


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2009)

1d4 rounds on the breath, ooze acid w/improved grab and chew, improved Con and Str are all ok by me.  I like these for some reason, but I can't put a finger on it.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Updated.

Same natural armor as purple worm?



> It is to attract these two favorite foods that the glitterworm evolved the ability to change colors and odors to look and smell like any type of precious metal, including such rare ones as mithral and adamantite. The intended prey sees what looks like a narrow vein of rare ore, rushes up to start eating or mining it, and receives quite a rude surprise!




The usual Camouflage ability?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

Agreed to camouflage and natural armor equivalent to that of the purple worm.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 21
The other "big worms" have some combination of Hide, Listen, and Spot.  The glitterworm probably doesn't want to Hide, since it has camouflage intended to lure prey.

Feats: 7
Some "big worm" feats:  Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

Spot 15, Listen 6

Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Improved Critical (bite), Cleave, Great Cleave


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

Updated.

CR 13? It's only slightly more powerful than a purple worm.

The body of a mature glitterworm is 5 feet in diameter and 100 feet long, weighing about x,000 pounds.  (The body of a mature purple worm is 5 feet in diameter and 80 feet long, weighing about 40,000 pounds.)


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to camouflage and natural armor equivalent to that of the purple worm.




I disagree about the natural armour. A 2nd edition Purple Worm has AC 6 (equivalent to 3E AC14), while the Glitterworm is AC -1 (equivalent to 3E AC21). That suggests the glitterworm's NA should be better than a purple's.

As for its ability scores, I'd be fine with just giving it the same Str and Con as a purple worm, or dropping the Str slightly as it does less damage with its bite (2-20 vs 2-24) and maybe upping the Con a tad, to go with the tough AC I fancy for it.


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

Good catch!

Increase natural armor by 7 to compensate, then?

I'm OK with increasing Con a tad, but I'd rather not drop Strength.  These guys lack the second attack and poison of the purple worm, after all.


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> Good catch!
> 
> Increase natural armor by 7 to compensate, then?
> 
> I'm OK with increasing Con a tad, but I'd rather not drop Strength.  These guys lack the second attack and poison of the purple worm, after all.




Yes, an extra 7 NA was what I was thinking of, giving it +22 and a total AC of 26.

It's already had its Con tweaked up 2 points more than a Purple Worm's which is enough as far as I'm concerned.

I think there's still a case for dropping it Strength to lower than a Purple Worm's 35. Its bite gets all that extra acid damage, so it does an average of 39 damage per bite (2d8 bite averages 9, plus 2d10 acid averages 11, plus +19 from Str). That's more than a Purple Worm's bite and sting combined (2d8+12 = 21, 2d6+7 = 14, 21+14 = 35 hit points average damage). If you dropped the Glitterworm's Strength to, say, Str 33 (2d8+16 plus 2d10 acid) it would still average 1 point more damage than a Purple Worm that hits with both its attacks.

I will agree that losing the poison does make a difference.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

The higher natural armor is good, but I'm of a split mind about the Str.  I can see going either way.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Let's keep the Strength the same, to help justify its higher CR than the purple worm.

Updated.

The body of a mature glitterworm is 5 feet in diameter and 100 feet long, weighing about x,000 pounds. (The body of a mature purple worm is 5 feet in diameter and 80 feet long, weighing about 40,000 pounds.)


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's keep the Strength the same, to help justify its higher CR than the purple worm.




Fine by me.



Shade said:


> The body of a mature glitterworm is 5 feet in diameter and 100 feet long, weighing about x,000 pounds. (The body of a mature purple worm is 5 feet in diameter and 80 feet long, weighing about 40,000 pounds.)




Since it's 25% longer but just as thick making it 25% heavier seems logical, so 50,000 pounds.

Oh, and a DC20 on the Spot or Knowledge (dungeoneering) check to see through its Camouflage ability seems awful low for a CR13 critter. Most PCs at that level will have Spot bonuses of what, +15 to +20, so will find it trivially easy to notice the glittering vein is actually a monster. Maybe up the DC to 30?

EDIT: An average Xorn has Spot and Dungeoneering at +10, so it will notice the glitterworm 55% of the time (Must roll 10+ to beat DC20), while an Elder Xorn's +22 Spot means it always notices the worm.

If we boost the DC to 30 that makes the numbers 5% for the average Xorn (which seems too low to me) and 65% for the Elder.

Maybe split the difference and make the DC25, for 30%/90%?


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

50,000 pounds and DC 25 sound great.

Updated.

All done?


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> 50,000 pounds and DC 25 sound great.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> All done?




I can see a couple of oddities in the stats.

Why does it have a Will save of +8? I make it Will +5 (+6 from its HD and -1 from its Wisdom)

Also, its Advancement is wonky: 18–32 HD (Gargantuan); 33–48 HD (Colossal). I'm fine with it not using double or triple its HD as a cut-off, but it should start at 19 HD. I guess if we wanted to be conventional we'd give it 19-36 HD (Gargantuan); 37-54 HD (Colossal).

Its Swallow Whole has the same damage bonus as a Purple Worm, despite its higher Str. Should be 2d8+13. It probably should do more acid damage as well, considering it slobbers 2d10 acid every time it bites.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm not sure how I butchered the Will save, but I'm glad you caught it.

I'll start the advancement at 19.  Otherwise, it follows the purple worm's advancement, which seems appropriate.

I fixed the crushing damage on swallow whole.  Acid damage boost makes sense...mimic the jaws' 2d10 or boost to some arbitrary number like 16?


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'm not sure how I butchered the Will save, but I'm glad you caught it.
> 
> I'll start the advancement at 19.  Otherwise, it follows the purple worm's advancement, which seems appropriate.




Sounds good.



Shade said:


> I fixed the crushing damage on swallow whole.  Acid damage boost makes sense...mimic the jaws' 2d10 or boost to some arbitrary number like 16?




I was thinking a fixed value around 15-20, since Swallow Whole acid damage is rarely variable, so 16 acid damage is fine by me.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

16 it is.

Updated.

Anything else?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

The breath weapon is very sad for a CR 13 creature. A resist energy (acid) spell at that level, for example, will completely neutralize it, and the 3-30 damage will probably be laughed off even by wizards. I suggest boosting the damage to 6d10 and/or making it do damage over time, ala acid arrow.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

I could go for either/both.   Preferences?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

Both!  6d10, 3d10 per round for 3 more rounds?


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

Of the two I'd go for 6d10, perhaps even up it to 8d10?

Don't fancy the ongoing 3d10. It would be overcome by the aforementioned _resist energy (acid)_ spell anyway.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 22, 2009)

I like freyar's suggestion. As for the ongoing damage vs. resist energy, I see that as rewarding prepared parties a bit. Also, it'll take a chunk out of any protection from energy spells that are up instead.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, it's kind of like 3 free applications of the Clinging Breath metabreath feat, Cleon, just think that we're getting to use something noncore.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, it's kind of like 3 free applications of the Clinging Breath metabreath feat, Cleon, just think that we're getting to use something noncore.




Just as well I've got the 3E _*Draconomicon*_ then.

Well 6d10 plus 3d10 over 3 rounds still seems a bit high. Not only is that a total of 15d10 damage (an average of 82 damage), it means its breath weapon is likely to recharge while its acid is still ongoing.

Maybe drop the rounds of ongoing damage to one or two?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Yeah, after looking at Clinging Breath, I was thinking about reducing the number of rounds myself.  Can we all agree on one round?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm fine for one round.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

That works for me as well.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> That works for me as well.
> 
> Updated.




One round ongoing acid breath is fine by me, it's looking dang near finished.

I do have one question. Why does its acid not affect stone? Its description says it eats minerals and creatures from the elemental plane of Earth, surely it stomach acids can digest them!

I was also wondering whether it could have the Earth or Extraplanar subtypes since it eats Earth creatures. A glitterworm's not an Outsider or Elemental though, so I'd deduce it's unlikely.


----------



## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I do have one question. Why does its acid not affect stone? Its description says it eats minerals and creatures from the elemental plane of Earth, surely it stomach acids can digest them!




That's a holdover from the ooze I copied it from, and most certainly needs to go!   Good catch.



Cleon said:


> I was also wondering whether it could have the Earth or Extraplanar subtypes since it eats Earth creatures. A glitterworm's not an Outsider or Elemental though, so I'd deduce it's unlikely.




It doesn't appear to be from another plane, so not Extraplanar.  An argument could be made for Earth, though, as some non-outsider/elementals have it, like stone giants and blue dragons.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> That's a holdover from the ooze I copied it from, and most certainly needs to go!   Good catch.
> 
> It doesn't appear to be from another plane, so not Extraplanar.  An argument could be made for Earth, though, as some non-outsider/elementals have it, like stone giants and blue dragons.




Yes, I was more in favour of Earth than Extraplanar, considering its diet. Anyone else fancy making it a Magical Beast (Earth)?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Earth is ok by me.  It doesn't change really anything other than its interaction with some rare characters with elemental turning abilities.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2009)

Let's give it the Earth subtype for flavor purposes.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

Earth it is!

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

"generall preffering" in the flavor text should be "generally preferring," but otherwise I think it's done.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

Fixed, thanks!


----------



## Cleon (Jul 24, 2009)

Shade said:


> Earth it is!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Sounds good to me, giving it the Earth subtype would also help justify its "immunity to Earth" power.

I've just realized something, why does it have Swallow Whole? The original monster digests its prey externally by latching on and slobbering acid, there's no mention of if gulping them down.

Not giving it Swallow would help differentiate it from the Purple and similar beasts.

Anyhow, the Glitterworm stats looks finished as far as I can see, regardless of the Swallow Whole question.


----------



## Shade (Jul 24, 2009)

I'd be amenable to that idea.  What do the rest of you think?


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## freyar (Jul 24, 2009)

You're right, it shouldn't have Swallow Whole, just Chew.  And the Improved Grab line should say "and can Chew on the following round."  I don't think this should change the CR much, at most dropping by 1. Thoughts?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 24, 2009)

Yeah, I thought we'd dropped swallow whole already actually. It doesn't need it, and I don't think it'll affect the CR.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 25, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah, I thought we'd dropped swallow whole already actually. It doesn't need it, and I don't think it'll affect the CR.




It would mean a Glitterworm wouldn't be able to damage more than one creature at a time through its Improved Grab attack, and Chewed victims can still wield non-light weapons to attack the worm, that may merit a CR reduction back to 12. Contrariwise, it has a much better AC and more Hit Dice than a Purple Worm, enough HD to give it an extra +1 on all its saves, and its Breath Weapon is quite effective (maybe a match for the Purple's poison?).

Hmm, I'm not quite decided, but overall it seems to be nudging over into CR13.


----------



## freyar (Jul 25, 2009)

Let's stick with the higher CR.  Freedom of movement would at least partly negate swallow whole (and chew) at that level, anyway.


----------



## Shade (Jul 28, 2009)

Agreed to keeping CR at 13.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's stick with the higher CR.  Freedom of movement would at least partly negate swallow whole (and chew) at that level, anyway.




Works for me. So it looks like the Glitterworm is done, what foul beastie will slither into our conversion pits next?


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

*Temporal Stalker*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Demiplane of Time
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or small groups
ACTIVITY CYCLE Any
DIET: Special (see below)
INTELLIGENCE Genius (18)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 4 + 2
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK 1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Level drain; special
SPECIAL DEFENSES hit only by +1 or better magical weapon
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 1,750

Temporal stalkers are the undead of the pseudo-reality of the Demiplane of Time, and a large number of them used to be chronomancers. Since the basis of their existence depends on temporal forces, traveling to other-planar reality means instant destruction for the stalkers. They appear to be composed entirely of the mist-smoke of Demiplane of Time, condensed down into a near-solid form. Flashes of silver light seem to pulse from within their forms, and twin red glows replace their eyes. As one moves, a glimpse of its physical body can sometimes be seen through a haze of mist, although this may only be an illusion of some sort.

Combat: Temporal stalkers usually hunt alone unless they are after a large group or a exceptionally powerful individual.  They track a single target for months until they are able to catch him surprise. If a small group of travelers is involved, the stalkers wait until one separates from the others before attacking. A successful hit by a temporal stalker causes only light damage, but also drains one level and all the abilities that go with it. Alternatively, with the same touch, the stalker can use paradox on a victim, fouling its past. Often it uses this to exchange a spell that a wizardly victim has memorized for one that is entirely useless in the given situation.

A character drained below level 0 becomes a temporal stalker himself. Mist-smoke begins to swarm around the victim's body until, several days later, most of his physical body is hidden within the shroud. Companions can prevent the transformation by bringing the body back to reality before the new stalker awakens.

Habitat/Society: Temporal stalkers have no lairs, and they are beyond the desire for material wealth. The only thing a temporal stalker actually possesses is a deep-seated hatred for linear creatures and a desire to see them destroyed. These evil undead are highly intelligent and know much concerning the Demiplane of Time, which is one more thing to drive them into anger, since they can no longer use this information. It's no good to them if they can never leave the pseudo-plane and have an effect upon reality.

Of all linear beings, temporal stalkers hate the Guardians the most, as these men and women have the most effect upon reality of any chronomancers. The jealousy the temporal stalkers feel bums brightly in them, and they sometimes organize small ambushes for a Guardian if they think there is any chance of catching the powerful chronomancer by surprise.  This is hardly likely, as the Guardians are aware of the temporal stalkers and the dangers that they represent to travelers of the Demiplane of Time.

Despite the hatred that is focused upon them (of which they are sometimes painfully aware), the Guardians usually choose to leave the temporal stalkers alone.  Since the creatures can’t slip into reality, they are no danger to the timestream.  In fact, they act as a kind of weeding-out system.  In the opinion of many Guardians, chronomancers who are too unwary to deal with temporal stalkers are stupid (or at least incautious) enough to present a danger to the timestream themselves.  If the temporal stalkers take care of these bumblers early on, then it may never be up to the Guardians to do so if the fools somehow manage to gain power.

On the other hand, those who survive an encounter with a group of temporal stalkers learn a fine lesson of the dangers of time traveling.  The impact that this can have is far more effective that any lecture a Guardian might give.

If there is any hope of dealing with a stalker, it is through exploiting their desire to seek the destruction of a Guardian above all else.  More than one cunning chronomancer has been spared by a group of temporal stalkers by promising to deliver a Guardian or two into a trap of their devising—the more Guardians, the better.  Of course, several of these deals fell through when the stalkers’ victim simply told the Guardians of the creatures’ plans.  Now, the stalkers are more than a little wary of cutting such deals, and getting them to agree to one takes some doing.

Ecology:  Temporal stalkers cannot exist outside of the normal Demiplane of Time.  They are neither hunted by temporal creatures, nor do they hunt such creatures.  Temporal stalkers roam the various timestreams of Demiplane of Time in search of one thing: linear lifeforms intruding upon their realm.  Once the mist trail left by a traveler is discovered, a temporal stalker tracks that individual down (unless, of course, the traveler leaves before the temporal stalker manages to catch up with him).  Temporal stalkers can move just as fast as chronomancers, and they never have to sleep, so it is rare to outdistance them.

Originally appeared in Chronomancer (1995).


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

This one will be a bit challenging, since "time" rules aren't very commonplace in 3e, and the Temporal Energy Plane isn't open content.   We may have to genericize it quite a bit, and use an underbar for those with Manual of the Planes.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 13, 2009)

Can we get a description of what "paradox" does? It sounds like this is a specific time-based spell or ability that would be described elsewhere in the book


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Oddly, a descritption of Chronomancer is still available (with a little searching) here as an RTF, but the document itself isn't there.

I agree that these will be a bit weird.  I think we should genericize too.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

I'll have to see if I have Chronomancer.  I believe the stats I posted are the reprint in one of the Monstrous Compendiums.  Or possibly Echohawk posted 'em for me.


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## Cleon (Oct 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> This one will be a bit challenging, since "time" rules aren't very commonplace in 3e, and the Temporal Energy Plane isn't open content.   We may have to genericize it quite a bit, and use an underbar for those with Manual of the Planes.




Well, we could have them restricted to a different plane, they could be "Astral Stalkers", the remains of astrally projected mages that have somehow survived having their silver cords cut, and are denied a place in the afterlife since they can't leave the Astral Plane.

Apart from the paradox SA, they look like an easy conversion - take a wight, give it Spell Resistance and increase its speed and Intelligence (Int 18, with some skills a Wizard would know, like Spellcraft).

Also, their misty body makes me think they're either incorporeal, or can assume a gaseous form.

EDIT: Of the above two options, I far prefer the Incorporeal subtype.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

I haven't been able to locate Chronomancer, but a Google search seems to indicate that the paradox spell allows the caster to alter a minor past action, such as preparing a different spell for the day, bringing different equipment along, etc.

A minor paradox seems limited to an event that transpired it the last few rounds, and a major paradox goes back a year.  Paradox goes back a month.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2009)

Ugh, I get the feeling that paradox may be a big pain to write.  Should we stick to the minor paradox for simplicity?

Cleon's suggestion of "astral stalkers" could just work, though it's not as thematically tied to the paradox ability.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 15, 2009)

One problem with calling it an astral stalker: there's already a creature by that name (Monster Manual III).


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

Indeed.  And I'd rather keep them "temporal stalkers".  They can still deal with time, even if there isn't a core "time plane".  Demiplanes can always exist to cover any unusual planes we might need.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2009)

Demiplane it is.

So the question remaining is what to do with paradox.  Do we limit it to events of the past day?


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

I think that's a good idea.

Something like this?

Paradox (Su):  Instead of using its energy drain, a temporal stalker may choose to instead alter one aspect of the victim's past made within the last 24 hours.   For example, the stalker could swap out one of a wizard or cleric's prepared spells for one less useful in the current battle.  Or it could have the victim choose to bring along a flask of acid rather than a vial of holy water.  A successful DC X Will? (Fortitude?) save negates this effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

Will save, I think.  But it looks good!


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

So incorporeal, extraplanar undead?

AC 17 would result from a combination of Dex and Cha.

Int is Genius (18).

Wraiths and spectres both have Str —, Dex 16, Con —, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15

So maybe Str —, Dex 16, Con —, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 19?


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

That seems appropriate.  Definitely extraplanar and incorporeal.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2009)

Ability scores and subtypes sound right.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

Just thinking about paradox: maybe we should state that it can't be used to deal direct hp damage (ie, changing whether they got hit once more in a previous fight).  Or should we let it do that?

Create spawn should only work when the character is killed by energy drain (per original text).

They need planar commitment, like petitioners.


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## Cleon (Oct 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think that's a good idea.
> 
> Something like this?
> 
> Paradox (Su):  Instead of using its energy drain, a temporal stalker may choose to instead alter one aspect of the victim's past made within the last 24 hours.   For example, the stalker could swap out one of a wizard or cleric's prepared spells for one less useful in the current battle.  Or it could have the victim choose to bring along a flask of acid rather than a vial of holy water.  A successful DC X Will? (Fortitude?) save negates this effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




Does the original spell even have a saving throw? I have a suspicion it would be like the old version of _alter reality_, _limited wish_ or _temporal status_ which, if I recall correctly, were Spell Resistance only.

That said, I guess Will is the most appropriate saving throw, assuming the power has one.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

We'll have to wait for Shade to tell us.  My google-fu isn't quite up to finding it.


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## Cleon (Oct 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> Just thinking about paradox: maybe we should state that it can't be used to deal direct hp damage (ie, changing whether they got hit once more in a previous fight).  Or should we let it do that?




There's a psionic power that does something like that, _recall agony_.



> (Psion/Wilder 2, Medium Range, Will Save for half damage)
> 
> The fabric of time parts to your will, revealing wounds your foe has received in the past (or has yet to receive). That foe takes 2d6javascript:void(0); points of damage as the past (or future) impinges briefly on the present.




We could just let it have that as one of its paradox options.



freyar said:


> Create spawn should only work when the character is killed by energy drain (per original text).




You beat me to it!


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## Cleon (Oct 17, 2009)

Shall we talk about skills? I think a wraith's skill complement is a good place to start. Wraith's have ranks in Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Search, Sense Motive and Spot, plus Survival at its  default level (including a +2 for 5 ranks of Search).

A Wraith has max ranks in Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Search & Spot and splits the remainder between Diplomacy and Sense Motive, with enough in Sense Motive to give it a synergy bonus on Diplomacy.

It seems reasonable to give the Temporal Stalker the same.

A Temporal Stalker has an Intelligence 4 points higher so can have two more maxed-out skills. Since they used to be wizards, Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) are obvious picks.

That could give us:
*2* Diplomacy, *7 *Hide, *7 *Intimidate, *7 *Knowledge (arcana), *7 *Listen, *7 *Search, *5 *Sense Motive, *7* Spellcraft, *7 *Spot​Toss in our provisional ability scores, and it comes out:
Str —, Dex 16, Con —, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 19

*Skills: *Diplomacy +8, Hide +10, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (arcana) +11, Listen +9, Search +11, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +11, Spot +9, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)​Looks OK to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2009)

I like Cleon's skill suggestions. If we wanted to make them actually use their spellcraft, we could require their paradox feature to make a Spellcraft check to be able to choose what spell the victim prepared instead, otherwise it's random.


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2009)

I like the recall agony -like option for paradox.

I also agree with Cleon's skills.

And I really like demiurge's idea about the Spellcraft check for paradox.


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## Cleon (Oct 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like Cleon's skill suggestions. If we wanted to make them actually use their spellcraft, we could require their paradox feature to make a Spellcraft check to be able to choose what spell the victim prepared instead, otherwise it's random.




Great idea on the paradox Spellcraft check.

What DC would be appropriate, do you think. Something caster-level based to determine what spells there are to swap?


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

Spellcraft vs victim's caster level check?  That could work.  Or 10+CL for something static.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Great ideas!

Updated with Cleon's skill suggestions and freyar's planar commitment.

For the Spellcraft check, maybe 10+spell level vs. each of the known spells?


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

10+spell level works for me.  Shall we put in the text about the damage, maybe up to 1d8+Cha damage (or up to 2d6) following Cleon's suggestion?


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Sure!   Rather than leaving the ability wide open, should we just list several possible applications, including the "recall agony"-like effect and the "rememorize spell" effect?


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Great ideas!
> 
> Updated with Cleon's skill suggestions and freyar's planar commitment.
> 
> For the Spellcraft check, maybe 10+spell level vs. each of the known spells?




Are you suggesting the DM rolls Spellcraft checks against _every spell the target knows?_ If so, I think a caster level check or an X+caster level DC is a much more practical idea!


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Sure!   Rather than leaving the ability wide open, should we just list several possible applications, including the "recall agony"-like effect and the "rememorize spell" effect?




I was going to go for a range of options - level drain or recall agony or swap spell.

Oh, and I like the idea of adding its Charisma bonus to a 2d6 base for its recall agony damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 19, 2009)

I like the idea of splitting up paradox. Recall agony, switch spell and swap equipment? For the equipment, considering how permanent it is, we might consider either dropping that ability or making the gp value of the item pretty low (and equal to the gp value of the item swapped). Imagine it using that ability to swap out a fighter's +3 longsword for, say, a wooden table leg, with no way for that fighter to ever get that weapon back.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 19, 2009)

The switch spell should only affect one spell the creature knows (of the highest level it can cast?) or one spell per spell level known. Definitely not the entire spell-list.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Are you suggesting the DM rolls Spellcraft checks against _every spell the target knows?_ If so, I think a caster level check or an X+caster level DC is a much more practical idea!




Yeah, like a targeted dispel magic (you have to check against each active spell).  It is probably too fiddly, though.

Agreed on the item value, too.  Perhaps they can only swap an item in hand with one stashed somewhere on the individual?  That way that can't use it to destroy an important item.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 20, 2009)

Can only swap an item with something else the person owns, at most. Worst-case scenario, the adventurer left his sword in the inn, and took his childhood teddy bear with him instead. Too mean? I can see that turning into a plot hook on its own... but it might be too much. On the person is more annoying than anything else, but is much more balanced.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

Why not just have the spell-replacement affect 1 spell of level corresponding to whatever DC the Spellcraft check beats?

Swapping two items on the person isn't bad, as it will cost some actions to fix.  But I kind of like the teddy bear idea.  I just don't know a good way to write that up.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Can only swap an item with something else the person owns, at most. Worst-case scenario, the adventurer left his sword in the inn, and took his childhood teddy bear with him instead. Too mean? I can see that turning into a plot hook on its own... but it might be too much. On the person is more annoying than anything else, but is much more balanced.




Agreed.



freyar said:


> Why not just have the spell-replacement affect 1 spell of level corresponding to whatever DC the Spellcraft check beats?




That sounds like a good, simple mechanic.



freyar said:


> Swapping two items on the person isn't bad, as it will cost some actions to fix.  But I kind of like the teddy bear idea.  I just don't know a good way to write that up.




True.  It would almost have to be either random, or the stalker would need detect thoughts to even know what items the character left behind.  (Which isn't necessarily out of the question here).


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

Hmm, it's not in the original text, but detect thoughts does seem thematically appropriate.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

So detect thoughts, and paradox with the following options?

1)  "Recall agony"
2)  Swap out item for another possessed by the victim (of roughly equal size?)
3)  Replace 1 spell of level corresponding to whatever DC the Spellcraft check beats


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2009)

Did we decide that possessed items are on the person?  In any case, that sounds about right.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2009)

Let's go for possessed items on the person. Otherwise is too powerful for the target HD/CR.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2009)

Attempting to summarize it all...

Paradox (Su):  Instead of using its energy drain, a temporal stalker may choose to instead alter one aspect of the victim's past made within the last 24 hours.   A successful DC X Will save negates this effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

When using paradox, a temporal stalker may choose one of the following effects:

Recall Agony:  The paradox reveals wounds the victim has received in the past. That foe takes 2d6 points of damage as the past impinges briefly on the present. 

Spell Swap:  The stalker may swap out one of a spellcaster's prepared spells for one less useful in the current battle.  To do so, the temporal stalker makes a Spellcraft check opposed by the victim's caster level + 10.  For each point by which the stalker beats the DC, it may replace one spell level.  Thus, a stalker beating the DC by 7 could replace a single spell of up to 7th-level.   Spell swap has no effect on spontaneous casters.

Switch Item:  The stalker may alter an single item worn or carried by the victim with another item on its person.  Thus, it could swap the vial of holy water its victim holds with a flask of acid from its backpack, or replace its drawn magic longsword with a fork from its mess kit.   The replaced item always returns to the most logical place on the victim (a weapon back to its sheath, tools back to a backpack, spell components back to a pouch, etc.)



I also propose we add a fourth option for dealing with spontaneous spellcasters, the ability to swap out an ongoing spell effect with another in its arsenal.   Thus, shield could be replaced with protection from energy, or bull's strength with owl's wisdom, for example.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2009)

Swapping ongoing spell effects seems like a good idea.  This should also work on buffs like bardic music (changing the kind of music effect, etc).

I didn't think that's how we were going to do the Spellcraft DC, but it may work.  The way it's written, it will on average be able to swap out 7 spell levels, assuming max ranks and CR 4.  Is that ok?


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2009)

freyar said:


> Swapping ongoing spell effects seems like a good idea.  This should also work on buffs like bardic music (changing the kind of music effect, etc).
> 
> I didn't think that's how we were going to do the Spellcraft DC, but it may work.  The way it's written, it will on average be able to swap out 7 spell levels, assuming max ranks and CR 4.  Is that ok?




If anything, it may be too weak. If it just drained a caster level instead it would remove at least one of the target's highest level spells, plus some lower level stuff. Plus, the energy drain has no save, while the Paradox needs a failed save and a skill check to work.

I like the principle though. Maybe have it have no save (like an energy drain), just a Spellcraft check to see what level spell it gets to choose to swap, and if it misses the check the target has a single spell swapped at random?

Hmm, we could make Paradox a ranged attack. That would give it a reason to use it instead of just energy-draining.


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

I did think it seemed a little weak, too.  I had been thinking the DC should just be 10+spell level to swap out a given spell, and it can swap out one spell of whatever level it beats.

Making it ranged is a nice idea, and it kind of makes sense.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

Take #2...

Paradox (Su): A temporal stalker may attempt to alter one aspect of a creature's past made within the last 24 hours.  Paradox targets a single creature within 100 feet.  

When using paradox, a temporal stalker may choose one of the following effects:

Recall Agony: The paradox reveals wounds the victim has received in the past. That foe takes 2d6 points of damage as the past impinges briefly on the present.  A successful DC X Will save negates this effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Spell Swap: The stalker may attempt to swap out one of a spellcaster's prepared spells for one less useful in the current battle. To do so, the temporal stalker makes a Spellcraft check.  It may swap a single spell of a level up to the amount its result exceeds 10.  Thus, a Spellcraft check result of 17 allows the stalker to swap a single spell of up to 7th-level. Spell swap has no effect on spontaneous casters.

Swap Ongoing Effect:  The stalker may swap out an ongoing spell effect, class feature, or magic item effect, as long as the user has an alternate effect available.  Thus, it can replace a victim's bull's strength with owl's wisdom (assuming it has prepared or knows that spell), could change a bard's inspire heroics with inspire competence, or change the "geyser" effect of a decanter of endless water to the "stream" effect.  A successful DC X Will save negates this effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Switch Item: The stalker may alter an single item worn or carried by the victim with another item on its person. Thus, it could swap the vial of holy water its victim holds with a flask of acid from its backpack, or replace its drawn magic longsword with a fork from its mess kit. The replaced item always returns to the most logical place on the victim (a weapon back to its sheath, tools back to a backpack, spell components back to a pouch, etc.)  A successful DC X Will save negates this effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2009)

That looks pretty reasonable.  I think we can drop the "24 hours" qualifier with the effects spelled out so well.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

Updated.

Feats: 2

After typing up flavor text, I'm wondering if we shouldn't give them ranks in Survival and Track as a bonus feat?


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2009)

Shade said:


> Take #2...
> 
> Paradox (Su): A temporal stalker may attempt to alter one aspect of a creature's past made within the last 24 hours.  Paradox targets a single creature within 100 feet.
> 
> ...




That looks good, although didn't we talk about adding its Cha bonus its 2d6 Recall Agony damage?


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Feats: 2
> 
> After typing up flavor text, I'm wondering if we shouldn't give them ranks in Survival and Track as a bonus feat?




That would fit with them tirelessly hunting down intruders, although I'm not sure the plane of time even has ground to leave tracks on. Maybe we should give them a supernatural ability to hunt people down - maybe it can look into the past and see someone's passed by, which would fit in with its other powers. Something like.*Track Through Time (Ex):* A temporal stalker can sense the past as well as the present, feeling the movement of creatures up to 24 hours before the current time. This allows the stalker to unerringly track any creature that has passed by within the last day.​EDIT: Oh, I forgot the feats.

I'm thinking Ability Focus (paradox) and Lightning Reflexes?


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

Ability Focus (paradox) makes good sense, and Lightning Reflexes is definitely appropriate.  Agreed.

Track through Time is definitely interesting.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

Great idea!

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2–4) [x="paradox"? "countdown"? "pack"?]

Challenge Rating: 5?  They are roughly the equivalent of a wraith

Advancement: 5-12 HD (Medium)?

Temporal stalkers speak Common and Draconic?  (Draconic is the closest thing to an ancient language)


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

"chronology"?

The rest sounds good enough to me!


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2009)

I like countdown.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2009)

Updated.

I believe we're done.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> Great idea!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




That all looks good to me, except for a couple of points.

Firstly, there's a minor error in the stats: Speed: Fly 50 ft. (perfect) (6 squares) when it should be 10 squares.

Secondly, I'm not terribly fond of "countdown" as a collective noun.

Maybe an _anachronism_ of Temporal Stalkers?


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2009)

Anachronism works for me.

I'll fix the fly speed.


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## Cleon (Nov 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> Anachronism works for me.
> 
> I'll fix the fly speed.




Looks like its finished now.

So I'm thinking it's times up for both the Temporal Stalker and this part of the thread, as we're well over 1000 posts.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

Agreed.  Locking her down...


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