# World's Largest Dungeon?



## DaveMage

From the EN Wold front page/Gaming Report:

http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=12129&mode=thread&order=0

So what does everyone think of the concept?

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

It seems like a "campaign in a box" concept of which there are so very few.


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## El Ravager

I don't know if I would buy it, but it sounds like a neat idea.  Certainly a natural step towards the 'campaign in a box'.  The fact that it is a dungeon, and thus a somewhat closed environment, it is perhaps a good first experimental step towards such an product.

======
El Rav


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## Dragonblade

At first I thought this was kind of dumb but after reading the article on Gaming Report, I think this might be very cool!

But they should do several things:

First avoid unnecessary rooms. The thing about Dragon Mountain and even Undermountain is the sheer number of repetitive and boring empty rooms. A couple here and there are ok, but generally if a room serves no purpose other than wasting the parties' time, it should not be in the dungeon.

Second, I expect the whole dungeon to be completely statted out with realistic story reasons for monsters to be where they are. No monsters just hanging out in rooms with nothing to do but wait for adventurers. I expect a realistic dungeon ecology where monsters live, hunt, and sleep. And they don't necessarily get along with each other unless there are story reasons for that. The same goes with traps. Intelligent monsters are not going to build random traps in every hallway unless there are specific story reasons why they might do so. Do you boobytrap your house? Stepping ever so gingerly across the pit trap when you go to the bathroom in the night? I didn't think so. So why would monsters?

Third, I don't want a product that expects me to do all the work. Undermountain only statted out a small section of dungeon and expected you to populate the rest. No thanks. This 800 page monster dungeon better have done all the work for me.

Fourth, no fair nerfing PC abilities unless there are good story reasons to do so. For example, Dragon Mountain had several spells blocked for contrived reasons that basically amounted to the designer being too lazy to actually think of challenges allowing for PC party's full range of abilities. If my high level sorcerer has teleport, I expect to be able to use it without half the dungeon suddenly developing an anti-teleport field. And from the DM side, its more fun to challenge players without nerfing their hard-earned abilities.

Now that being said, the reverse also applies. If one area of a dungeon is ruled by some ancient lich, then I do expect him to have anticipated and countered possible enemy spellcasting. If the encounter is written such that the lich would be taken completely off guard by the characters doing something any enemy wizard would conceivably do, its poorly written. For example, in a world with teleport, bad guys should anticipate PC teleporters suddenly appearing in their throne room with hostile intent. Like Monte Cook said in the DMG, in a world with Invisibility, shopkeeper are not going to be surprised by the concept of an invisible thief.

Now, if AEG has taken all those into consideration, then consider me a customer! And I don't think those are unreasonable requests at all. Just common sense and good design.


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## Ranes

I've noticed recently a number of posts in which the decline of the one dungeon per campaign phenomenon has been lamented, albeit out of nostalgia rather than any other reason. Those posts struck a chord with me. This project may well scratch that particular nostalgic itch.

I'm sure I've heard many a novice DM expound plans for an ambitious campaign that would feature every monster in the MM and I'm sure that, just once, one of those voices was my own. Even so, I don't think I entertained the idea for much longer than it took me to articulate it. Obviously, it would have required a tremendous amount of work and, almost as obviously, it would have had to be brazenly contrived, even by the standards of D&D. And when it comes down to it, it's not the most electrifying campaign concept.

Nevertheless, I am intrigued to see what the authors have come up with, to meet the challenge of making this work. I want more information.

Of course, this only uses every creature from the SRD. If you're going to run a game of D&D with this, you might as well crowbar in all the WotC IP entries.


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## Ranes

Dragonblade, well said to all of that.


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## Fieari

> Now, if AEG has taken all those into consideration, then consider me a customer! And I don't think those are unreasonable requests at all. Just common sense and good design.



And if not... do I smell a "Worlds Largest Cooperative Dungeon" by ENWorlders?  It'd require QUITE a bit of organization, some quality assuarance work, a bit of itinerant playtesting, but think how cool it could be!


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## Dana_Jorgensen

Oh, joy. 800 pages? Between this and the World of Khaas, I guess we can watch the SRPs for new books steadily climb from its currently ridiculous high end of $35-$40 all the way up past incredibly ridiculous $60, well on the way to an unbelievably ridiculous $100...


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## Dragonblade

Ranes said:
			
		

> Dragonblade, well said to all of that.




Thanks! 

I love playing in dungeons and I love DMing for them. The game is after all Dungeons and Dragons! And dungeon crawling just calls to me. I love role-playing too in city adventures, politics, and all that. But there is something pure about a dungeon. Its just the PCs, their skills, tactics, and strategies put to the test against the best the DM has to throw at them.

I have DMed and played in a lot of dungeons in my time and have gotten really picky about good dungeon design.


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## Wycen

Obviously, big as an adjective can be aplied differently, whether it means most encounters, rooms, monsters, page count etc.

But my immediate thought was, "Wouldn't Dungeon World by Fast Forward be, by definition, the world's largest dungeon, as well, it's a world of dungeons?"


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## Crothian

I'm looking forward to it.  I've been waiting for something like this, something that is more then the other compaines are willing to do.


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## MojoGM

This sounds cool.  My only concern is the maps.  It probably won't be a boxed set (nobody does those anymore, not cost effective), so how will you get the maps out without mangling the book?

Maybe it will come in two parts, a dungeon set and a maps set?

Anyway, I'll definately be checking it out.


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## Dark Jezter

I want this book!

Heck, if this book is as cool as I hope it will be, I want to see it turned into a computer game using the Temple of Elemental Evil Engine.


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## Ranes

MojoGM said:
			
		

> My only concern is the maps. It probably won't be a boxed set (nobody does those anymore, not cost effective), so how will you get the maps out without mangling the book?



If I were at AEG, I would be advocating for the maps to be made available as a free download.


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## Dark Jezter

Ranes said:
			
		

> If I were at AEG, I would be advocating for the maps to be made available as a free download.



 Or they could be contained on a CD that comes with the book, in .pdf format for easy printing.


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## Dragonblade

I would imagine that they would need to break it up into seperate volumes. 4 200 page books or something. It would be nice if all maps were included. I am not a big fan of essential info being offered only as a web enhancement.

What would be even better is if they could include counters for all the battles sort of like Fiery Dragon's counter collection. And of course include enough counters. If there is a battle with 20 orcs, you need to include 20 orc counters.

But now I'm just dreaming....


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## Ranes

That wouldn't be a very expensive option, from a publishing perspective and it would be better than a download. Of course, even the download suggestion was probably wishful thinking.

Edit: Er, I'm not sure why so many of my posts have an expanse of empty space beneath the text. It's not a formatting thing I'm doing, as far as I can tell. Apologies, if it gets on your nerves.


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## snarfoogle

Interesting. Sounds like Nethack. "You've played the 100 level dungeon on your monitor in full color ASCII graphics, now use your imagination and play it at the table!"

If done right, I'd love to run it or play it. 1600 encounters.... I hope not all are hostile...


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## DaveMage

Dana_Jorgensen said:
			
		

> Oh, joy. 800 pages? Between this and the World of Khaas, I guess we can watch the SRPs for new books steadily climb from its currently ridiculous high end of $35-$40 all the way up past incredibly ridiculous $60, well on the way to an unbelievably ridiculous $100...




Yeah, that will be one drawback.  After all, the Accordlands books will cost a cool $160 (4 at $39.95 each) for that complete campaign.

However, I don't mind paying a higher price for an 800-page "world's biggest dungeon" if it comes off well, especially since no one has really done anything like it before.


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## DaveMage

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> I want this book!
> 
> Heck, if this book is as cool as I hope it will be, I want to see it turned into a computer game using the Temple of Elemental Evil Engine.




Ooh!  That would be sweet.

Of course, I'd be happy if they just came out with *any* new game with that engine as long as they removed those pesky level limits.


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## DaveMage

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Third, I don't want a product that expects me to do all the work. Undermountain only statted out a small section of dungeon and expected you to populate the rest. No thanks. This 800 page monster dungeon better have done all the work for me.




I especially agree with this.  I loved the statted areas of Undermountain, but the rest of it was just a pretty drawing.  I did actually add my own thing to a part of level one, but I can only imagine how many hours (days/weeks/years) it would have taken me to fully flesh it out.


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## Arnwyn

This sounds wicked, and I will definitely be buying - _if and only if_ the maps are well done. The quality of the maps are absolutely critical for a product like this.

And Dragonblade - I agree with _everything_ you said in your first post. Word.


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## Dirigible

> I want this book!




If nothing else, I could use it to reach high shelves. and clean on top of the fridge.


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## thundershot

If the maps are good, and everything Dragonblade said... then it will be mine. Oh yes... I just hope everything has a REASON to be there.. It's also one of those products that AEG will actually have to do what everyone else does and make a free PREVIEW of SOMEthing before we throw money into it...


Chris


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## d4

forgive my math geeking, but i just realized that either there's a whole bunch of lower than average-party-level encounters, or the PCs aren't expected to encounter even a _fraction_ of the dungeon.

at the standard 13.33 encounters per level paradigm, the PCs would be around 120th level after 1600 encounters!


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## Creamsteak

Does that mean there are 13 level 119 encounters?


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## Dirigible

> forgive my math geeking, but i just realized that either there's a whole bunch of lower than average-party-level encounters, or the PCs aren't expected to encounter even a fraction of the dungeon.
> 
> at the standard 13.33 encounters per level paradigm, the PCs would be around 120th level after 1600 encounters!




To continue... at 4 encounters per session, 1 session per week, that's over *seven and a half years* of gaming goodness. And if the book costs US$120 (based on a rough extrapolation of page count), that works out to about 3 cents per session.

Not a bad price, really... lol


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## Nightfall

If they can top Rappan Athuk, I'll be very impressed.


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## SSquirrel

MojoGM said:
			
		

> This sounds cool. My only concern is the maps. It probably won't be a boxed set (nobody does those anymore, not cost effective), so how will you get the maps out without mangling the book?



 Use that sticky stuff that some of the game books have been using for maps.  Comes right out of the book with no damage to the map or book.

 Hagen


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## Impeesa

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Does that mean there are 13 level 119 encounters?




Yes. Among other things, Kord's poker group plays in a small room down on level 8 to avoid interruptions, and they're none too happy when adventurers come barging in.

--Impeesa--


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## d4

Impeesa said:
			
		

> ...Kord's poker group...



that would be Kord, Moradin, Odin, Kurtulmak, and Wee Jas. they sometimes let Apollo play, when they feel like fleecing someone. however, under no circumstances is Olidammara allowed to touch the cards.

bids start at 50 petitioners and go up from there.


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## johnsemlak

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> I would imagine that they would need to break it up into seperate volumes. 4 200 page books or something. It would be nice if all maps were included. I am not a big fan of essential info being offered only as a web enhancement.
> 
> What would be even better is if they could include counters for all the battles sort of like Fiery Dragon's counter collection. And of course include enough counters. If there is a battle with 20 orcs, you need to include 20 orc counters.
> 
> But now I'm just dreaming....



 Breaking it into separate volumes tends to be a bad concept, from what I've read.  A lot of products done that way sold badly.

Anyway, I'm definitely looking forward to this.


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## Bauglir

Could be fun, but it's been my experience that you can only spend so much time in any given dungeon before the endlessness of it drives you nuts.

Breaking it up into smaller sub-adventures within an underlying dungeo-campaign might solve that - it's all about a sense of progress I think.


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## drnuncheon

I think I'm most worried about the "every monster from the SRD" ad copy.  If that's not a recipe for "gotta shoehorn stuff in" I don't know what is.

DM: OK, level 9, wandering monsters...(dice clatter) As the thief -

Thief: Rogue.

DM: Sorry, rogue.  As the rogue kneels in front of the trap, disarming it, you hear a scraping sound of claws on stone.

Ranger: I turn and nock an arrow to my bow.

Wizard: I ready a _fireball_.

Cleric: I have the worst initiative ever, so I do nothing.

DM: Around the corner comes...a _roc_!

Ranger: Something just kicked that rock, be ready.

DM: No, no, not a stone.  A roc.

Ranger: The giant bird?  Here on the ninth level of the dungeon?!

DM: Er...yes.  Says here it was trapped here as an egg when the ogre mage colony wanted an omelette...


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## Dragonblade

Bauglir said:
			
		

> Could be fun, but it's been my experience that you can only spend so much time in any given dungeon before the endlessness of it drives you nuts.
> 
> Breaking it up into smaller sub-adventures within an underlying dungeo-campaign might solve that - it's all about a sense of progress I think.




This is a very good point. It would be nice if different levels of the dungeon had little self-contained story arcs. Or different areas of the dungeon were sort of mini-campaigns in and of themselves. Even better if each of those little story arcs tied into a bigger whole.

This is what they do in Diablo, D&D Heroes, and various other dungeon crawl PC and console games and it works well. A seemingly endless dungeon is much more enjoyable when the PC's can get a sense of accomplishment by resolving different story arcs once in a while.

And of course it helps to have safe areas, little underground enclaves, or a nearby town that the PCs can return to, sell off some of their loot, and get a little R&R once in a while.


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## Dana_Jorgensen

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Yeah, that will be one drawback.  After all, the Accordlands books will cost a cool $160 (4 at $39.95 each) for that complete campaign.
> 
> However, I don't mind paying a higher price for an 800-page "world's biggest dungeon" if it comes off well, especially since no one has really done anything like it before.




That's only half the drawback. One thing I've noticed over the last two years is the fact that most of the larger D20 publishers have reached a point where they are charging as much for "house" content as they are for licensed content. Within a couple months of B5 coming out from Mongoose, all their house material (Armaggedon, the OGL stuff, etc) started selling at similar price points. AEG now does the same thanks to Stargate SG-1. And once they did that, the SRPs for quite a few other publishers started increasing, as well.

Now we have the Arduin Guide, World of Khaas, coming out at $60 for an 800 page book, This "world's biggest dungeon", and a few other rumored high page count projects, which are going to continue pushing MSRPs to ever higher amounts. It's almost like they're saying "screw the high school and college students where the player community begins, and just focus on the well paid former nerds turned professionals that started the hobby to begin with". I would have thought everyone learned their lesson from the Dragon Magazine Archive and that Silver Anniversary boxed set that WotC did a few years ago...


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## Orius

Two things come to mind:

First, this thing sounds insane!  1600 encounters?  Every monster in the SRD?  And I thought _I_ used everything, including the kitchen sink!  

Second, it does sound kind of cool.  I've always wanted to stat up a huge, totally illogical, old-school D&D dungeon and run it just for fun.  I _like_ making dungeons.


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## Orius

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> But they should do several things:
> 
> First avoid unnecessary rooms. The thing about Dragon Mountain and even Undermountain is the sheer number of repetitive and boring empty rooms. A couple here and there are ok, but generally if a room serves no purpose other than wasting the parties' time, it should not be in the dungeon.




I definitely second this, given the sheer size of this sucker.  Pointless empty rooms is padding, and a waste of paper with something this size.  Not to mention time.  I would imagine that running this thing would take like a year in real time.  Empty rooms would suck.



> Second, I expect the whole dungeon to be completely statted out with realistic story reasons for monsters to be where they are. No monsters just hanging out in rooms with nothing to do but wait for adventurers. I expect a realistic dungeon ecology where monsters live, hunt, and sleep. And they don't necessarily get along with each other unless there are story reasons for that. The same goes with traps. Intelligent monsters are not going to build random traps in every hallway unless there are specific story reasons why they might do so. Do you boobytrap your house? Stepping ever so gingerly across the pit trap when you go to the bathroom in the night? I didn't think so. So why would monsters?




I don't even think that's likely given the scope of this.  I can't possibly see how they could wring a logical adventure out of something that shoehorns every last SRD monster into it.  

I'm not even sure we should expect this.  This seems like it should read "Old-School Dungeon Fun" all over it.



> Third, I don't want a product that expects me to do all the work. Undermountain only statted out a small section of dungeon and expected you to populate the rest. No thanks. This 800 page monster dungeon better have done all the work for me.




Agreed.  Blank stuff is good in some ways, for example, allowing a DM to integrate a dungeon more fully into his personal campaign, or as a way of providing novice DMs some practice in fleshing out a dungeon.  But given the sheer size of this thing, I sure as hell wouldn't want to write enough material to have to fill an average sized-module or two either.



> Fourth, no fair nerfing PC abilities unless there are good story reasons to do so. For example, Dragon Mountain had several spells blocked for contrived reasons that basically amounted to the designer being too lazy to actually think of challenges allowing for PC party's full range of abilities. If my high level sorcerer has teleport, I expect to be able to use it without half the dungeon suddenly developing an anti-teleport field. And from the DM side, its more fun to challenge players without nerfing their hard-earned abilities.




Definitely.  

I'd also add:

Fifth, no cheesy traps or hazards that allow absolutely no saving throw, a al the old Tomb  of horrors.  That's just as bad as nerfing.


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## Orius

Ranes said:
			
		

> I've noticed recently a number of posts in which the decline of the one dungeon per campaign phenomenon has been lamented, albeit out of nostalgia rather than any other reason. Those posts struck a chord with me. This project may well scratch that particular nostalgic itch.




Well, I think it has something to do with the fact that one can easily get the dungeon-crawl kick by playing a computer game that handles the numbers a lot faster than a human DM can.  People want more from D&D.

I haven't abandoned dungeons completely, though.  I _like_ statting them up, drawing the maps, creating devious traps, and so on.  It's just that D&D can do a hell of a lot more than dungeons, and I think a lot of people recognize that.



> Of course, this only uses every creature from the SRD. If you're going to run a game of D&D with this, you might as well crowbar in all the WotC IP entries.




Certainly would be  a good way to use any empty rooms!


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## Ranes

Orius said:
			
		

> Well, I think it has something to do with the fact that one can easily get the dungeon-crawl kick by playing a computer game that handles the numbers a lot faster than a human DM can. People want more from D&D.



Of course they do, most of them, most of the time. I do. However, I've played (I'm not actually proud to admit this) every D&D computer game ever published (part from the new D&D Heroes, BG Alliance and the NWN expansions). None has delivered as good a dungeon crawl as the real thing. In other words, I'm not sure if I agree with you. 



			
				Orius said:
			
		

> I haven't abandoned dungeons completely, though. I _like_ statting them up, drawing the maps, creating devious traps, and so on. It's just that D&D can do a hell of a lot more than dungeons, and I think a lot of people recognize that.



I'm certain of it. I like designing dungeons, sometimes. This book could mean not doing that for - a while.



			
				Orius said:
			
		

> Certainly would be a good way to use any empty rooms!



Good point! They should have as many empty rooms or areas as there are WotC IP monsters they can't use.


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## d4

Orius said:
			
		

> First, this thing sounds insane!  1600 encounters?  Every monster in the SRD?  And I thought _I_ used everything, including the kitchen sink!



this dungeon better _darn well_ have a kitchen sink in it.

maybe a mimic in kitchen sink form?


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## Matafuego

Wow... I gotta get this book even if it is the last thing I do... (living in a Third World Country which charges U$S a lot more than I can afford and being a student doesn't help =\)
When I told my friends about a "1600 encounter book" one of them almost passed out 
I hope it's as good as most people expect, and I think a looot of monsters would have a hard time fitting this dungeon...The Roc example is a good one but Treants also come to my minds :S
And will there be a Tarrasque????

I guess from all the dragons they will have it will be "Dungeon and Dragons" 

Does anyone know what monsters are "WotC IP"?


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## Creamsteak

It looks like (based on d4's assessment) it could have quite a variety of tarrasque actually...


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## thullgrim

Whats the release date for this monster?


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## johnsemlak

thullgrim said:
			
		

> Whats the release date for this monster?




Well, AFAIK Alderac hasn't annoucned it; I can't find it on their site.


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## Sammael

Matafuego said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what monsters are "WotC IP"?



Beholders, mind flayers, slaad, and giths are the ones I can remember right now.


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## thullgrim

carrion crawlers too I think


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## Calico_Jack73

First of all, they are comparing it to Undermountain by the number of encounters that were written up for it.  The VAST majority of Undermountain was left BLANK so that DM's could pop their own encounters into it so that is an unfair comparison.  Personally, I've never even played through all of Undermountain nor run a group through the whole thing.  It isn't that I couldn't run it for them but that the group typically loses interest in dungeon crawls that are too long.  It makes the Hack-and-Slashers happy as can be since role-playing rarely figures into those games but it bores the hell out of true Role-Players since there isn't a whole lot of room for character development.

One of the great things about Undermountain is the setting of the city set over it... namely Waterdeep. The Yawning Portal Tavern is a great place for the cliche party meeting and the first level of Undermountain is deadly but still survivable for 1st level players (as long as they don't stray too far from the entrance).  They can place bets on themselves and other groups going into Undermountain which is a great way for low level parties to make some (or lose some) money in the game without having to kill monsters to do it.

I'll take a look at it (probably won't buy it) but you may have just inspired me to dig out my old Undermountain boxed set again.


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## Hand of Evil

But is not a campaign really a dungeon (in the basic terms of the game)   

I will have to see it, I would like logic, thought, background, and ideas rather than room after room filled with every monster from the SDL, that is just the worlds biggest dungeon crawl.


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## drnuncheon

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> First of all, they are comparing it to Undermountain by the number of encounters that were written up for it.  The VAST majority of Undermountain was left BLANK so that DM's could pop their own encounters into it so that is an unfair comparison.




Actually, it _is_ a fair comparison - they're comparing how much work they did for you vs. how much work you have to do yourself.  The undetailed portions of Undermountain were one of the biggest complaints I've heard about the set.

J


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## Henry

The pragmatist in me says I'll never play it - why get it.

The little kid in me says, "OH MY GOD! IT MUST BE MINE!"

Not sure which one to listen to at the moment.


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## Ranes

(whispers): The kid... Listen to the kid...


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## Calico_Jack73

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> Actually, it _is_ a fair comparison - they're comparing how much work they did for you vs. how much work you have to do yourself.  The undetailed portions of Undermountain were one of the biggest complaints I've heard about the set.
> J




I guess then that I belong to the silent side of the arguement.  I liked the fact that Undermountain was left mostly blank so I could have plenty of room to throw in my own stuff.  DM's who complain about it being undetailed are just being lazy DM's.  Any mook can run a published adventure which doesn't require any creativity on the part of the DM.  All that takes is a decent voice and an ability to use inflection.  I've never run a module exactlly as published, instead I'll read through it, use some ideas and put in some of my own.

As a bad side to having this _SUPER DUNGEON _ fleshed out is that normally most DM's want to read through a module so they'll be prepared for every encounter.  It helps to know what equipment different encounter creatures have and what special abilities they'll use (I'm not one of those DM's who has an Orc using a plain battleaxe to defend a treasure which happens to contain a +1 Flaming Battleaxe).  Seems like it will take a while with this product to read through the whole thing.  Nope... seems like this will be a product for DM's to just read the little gray boxes, draw out the rooms, and roll some dice.


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## Ranes

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> I guess then that I belong to the silent side of the arguement. I liked the fact that Undermountain was left mostly blank so I could have plenty of room to throw in my own stuff.



Fair enough.



			
				Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> DM's who complain about it being undetailed are just being lazy DM's.



Really?



			
				Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Any mook can run a published adventure which doesn't require any creativity on the part of the DM. All that takes is a decent voice and an ability to use inflection.



Ah.



			
				Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> I've never run a module exactlly as published, instead I'll read through it, use some ideas and put in some of my own.



I see.



			
				Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> As a bad side to having this _SUPER DUNGEON _fleshed out is that normally most DM's want to read through a module so they'll be prepared for every encounter.



Great idea!



			
				Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> It helps to know what equipment different encounter creatures have and what special abilities they'll use



Right.



			
				Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> (I'm not one of those DM's who has an Orc using a plain battleaxe to defend a treasure which happens to contain a +1 Flaming Battleaxe).



You're jolly clever!



			
				Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Seems like it will take a while with this product to read through the whole thing.



Is your real name Mycroft?



			
				Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Nope... seems like this will be a product for DM's to just read the little gray boxes, draw out the rooms, and roll some dice.



Seems like that's definitely a maybe and maybe a probably.


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## Orius

thullgrim said:
			
		

> carrion crawlers too I think




NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


How can you have a dungeon crawl without carrion crawlers?!


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## Orius

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> First of all, they are comparing it to Undermountain by the number of encounters that were written up for it.  The VAST majority of Undermountain was left BLANK so that DM's could pop their own encounters into it so that is an unfair comparison.




I disagree.  There are comparisons to Undermountain and Dragon Mountain, for that matter, because those are among the largest dungeons ever published for D&D.  It's kind of a frame of reference thing, though I'm sure even they will be dwarfed by this monster.


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## thundershot

Lazy?!!? I use published adventures (and work them into my own world) because I don't have any frelling time, not because I'm lazy. I live for stuff like this... as long as the dungeon has an 'eco-system' feel to it, not just a series of random encounters, and there aren't tons of empty rooms, I'll have this bad boy... 



Chris


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## drnuncheon

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> I guess then that I belong to the silent side of the arguement.  I liked the fact that Undermountain was left mostly blank so I could have plenty of room to throw in my own stuff.  DM's who complain about it being undetailed are just being lazy DM's.




Boy, have I got the perfect dungeon for you, then.  The map alone covers 200 8.5x11 sheets of 1/4" graph paper, the room descriptions another 250 pages (pre-punched for inclusion in a binder!) and the best part is, _it's all left for you to detail!_

The price for all this boxed goodness? Only $50!

OK, I'm going a little over the top, but the point is there - I'm perfectly capable of adding my own stuff to an adventure, whether or not the author put in mostly blank areas.  Like you, I buy adventures to raid for ideas, plots, and characters...

...but there aren't any in those blank rooms, are there?

J


----------



## Calico_Jack73

Ranes said:
			
		

> Seems like that's definitely a maybe and maybe a probably.




Thanks... my head hurts now...


----------



## d4

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> ...but there aren't any in those blank rooms, are there?



exactly. why would i pay money for an adventure where i have to do most of the work myself? what am i paying for, if not to have other people do the work for me?


----------



## Calico_Jack73

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> Boy, have I got the perfect dungeon for you, then.  The map alone covers 200 8.5x11 sheets of 1/4" graph paper, the room descriptions another 250 pages (pre-punched for inclusion in a binder!) and the best part is, _it's all left for you to detail!_
> The price for all this boxed goodness? Only $50!
> OK, I'm going a little over the top, but the point is there - I'm perfectly capable of adding my own stuff to an adventure, whether or not the author put in mostly blank areas.  Like you, I buy adventures to raid for ideas, plots, and characters...
> ...but there aren't any in those blank rooms, are there?
> J




I've kind of gravitated away from large, multi-level dungeon crawls.  It starts to feel too much like I am running a Diablo RPG (yes, I know there really was one).  I generally use dungeon crawls with new groups to get them a few levels, some decent coin, and to get a feel for how the group works together but once they hit 3rd level I start working them into some more far reaching, campaign effecting world events.

Gotta agree with Thundershot.  I don't mind a dungeon-crawl as long as there is a reason for being there besides the fact that it is a dungeon.  It also needs to have an eco-system.  If you are exploring the ruins of an old castle then there had better be barracks, a kitchen, an outhouse, and some of the other things that aren't as glamorous as the treasure room.  Personally I thought Sunless Citadel had it right.  Why wouldn't there be only one or two predominant humanoids races in a "dungeon" and not much else?  Would a Troll really have gotten along with a bunch of Kobolds, Orcs, or anything else that isn't a Troll?  Nope... they'd be Troll food and that needs to be taken into consideration.  The same goes with Gelatinous Cubes and other "dumb" creatures.  They don't understand alliances, they eat and make baby cubes and that is about it.


----------



## Arnwyn

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> DM's who complain about it being undetailed are just being lazy DM's.



Actually, I think that should read: "...are DMs who have jobs and lives".

Nice try, though.


----------



## Psion

I am a big fan of Undermountain and Greyhawk Ruins, especially to former. It's like the matterhorn of dungeons. It's almost more a setting than a dungeon, and I have done it a lot in the past.

At the same time, as I have grown older, I find I have less patience with big dungeons, and time constraints keep me from using them regularly. Heck, we spent like four sessions in the first of three adventures in a smallish module by necromancer games (Demons & Devils); by the time we were done, I was tired of it.

Undermountain was sort of made to let you set other adventures in. You do have a little leeway in that you can use gates to get your PCs in and out, but it always struck me as a bit tacked on and a bit of blatant fiat. If I were to entertain another dungeon as big as undermountain, I would like to have similar convenience to insert and extract players, but better explained and less "handwaving" in nature.

The ad copy brags that it has more encounter locations than undermountain. Okay, but undermountain's locations are detailed (often spanning multiple pages) and many are interesting. If the "encounters" in this books are a stat block and a paragraph of why they are in the room, that is not really saying much. And somehow, I doubt that many encounters can be detailed to the same level. (I think I'd have to do a bit of quick math, but a quick BOTE: IIRC, the undermountain core book is 160 pages. So ~1 encounter per page if their figures are accurate. Compare to 10x as many encounter in 5x as many pages. And also consider stat blocks are more detailed now. That leads me to beleive that the actual content won't be as high quality.

Anyways, there still might be something worthwhile there. The promises of conflict built into the backstory sound useful.

I guess I'd really want to know: who is writing this? Some big names might persuade me that it is likely worthwhile more than others. But then, I don't see many big names spending this much time on such a big project.


----------



## Myrddin ap Taliesen

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Heck, if this book is as cool as I hope it will be, I want to see it turned into a computer game using the Temple of Elemental Evil Engine.




Hopefully without the insane number of bugs present in ToEE  



			
				d4 said:
			
		

> at the standard 13.33 encounters per level paradigm, the PCs would be around 120th level after 1600 encounters!





Hopefully not everything is hostile... that would make it almost purely hack and slash. Not that I'd mind DMing some 100+ lvl PCs... think of all the fun that could be had combining the Draconomicon with Deities and Demigods and Savage Species , with a touch of Unearthed Arcana for badies  . 


Kallyrstarlin
Advanced Red Great Wyrm with Major Vampire Bloodline.
Level 20 Paladin of Slaughter/ level 10 bloodline/ level 10 Disciple of Ashardalon/ Divine rank 15.

You have a baddy here with a CR of 95... nothing to be scoffed at.
Think of the fun of playing out such an encounter  .


----------



## Myrddin ap Taliesen

sorry.  mispost


----------



## rounser

IMO, megadungeons always seem like a really cool idea, until you find that in actual play they get really boring...too much of a good thing.  In past attempts, I think that the author(s) have run out of ideas quickly, and settle into a rut of quantity over quality...and it shows.  On top of that, a real campaign offers a variety of kinds of adventures - like a banquet....a megadungeon only offers a force-feeding of the same "meal" over and over again.

If they were trying to create a true campaign-in-a-box, without pure railroad, then that'd be something worth writing home about, I think...


----------



## Trainz

It's impossible to have 1600 encounters in 800 pages, so here's how they'll probably do it:

Stat out some rooms (more or less half of the encounters), and use generic encounter descriptions for the rest.

For example, lets say they have 26 generic rooms numbered A to Z. Generic room E could be a room with 3 orcs for example.

Dungeon rooms 14, 78, 132, 567, 570, 598, 1093, 1130, 1450 and 1543 could have for description: "Generic room E".

Just a thought.


----------



## Hand of Evil

It could be a complex, a number of levels with single passages connecting them to another group of levels.


----------



## Altalazar

But NOTHING could beat the scale of my Dunegon of Eternal Death (tm).  It had 10,000 encounters (one per room) required a full pad of graph paper to draw and the bottom level (like level 50 or whatever it was) had Tiamat and Bahamut in two different rooms in an eternal battle for domination.  

Ok, so I was 9 years old.  But the maps were certainly fun to draw.


----------



## MerakSpielman

This dungeon could be interesting to insert into a campaign as a known feature. Every now and then, the players might have to enter a specific area of The Great Dungeon for a specific quest or something.

I'd get bored to tears if we just ran through the whole thing as a campaign in and of itself.


----------



## Calico_Jack73

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> DM's who complain about it being undetailed are just being lazy DM's.




Okay let me rephrase since some people have taken a little offense to that statement.  DM's who complain about it being undetailed have no time on their hands and might want to consider letting someone that has the time run the game while they play.    

On a serious note, I know... life happens but you look for time when you have it.  Some of my best ideas have come while I commute to or from work.  A miniature tape recorder is good for times like that.  Since I don't have one I'll get to either place, jot down a note about the idea, and then come back to it later when I get a chance.  If I am at work and I get an idea I'll shoot a quick one-line e-mail to my home account so it'll be there waiting for me when I get home.  I am married but I don't have kids yet.  When I do have kids I fully expect to hang up the DM's hat until the kids are old enough to play.  I figure that if I watch the kids so my wife can continue to go to her monthly wine & cheese parties she can cover for me when I go play D&D every other week.  

Inspiration strikes at the most unlikely times... be prepared for it.


----------



## Hand of Evil

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> This dungeon could be interesting to insert into a campaign as a known feature. Every now and then, the players might have to enter a specific area of The Great Dungeon for a specific quest or something.
> 
> I'd get bored to tears if we just ran through the whole thing as a campaign in and of itself.



Which makes you wonder if a reason for return trips will be built into it.


----------



## Jim Hague

Greetings!  Long-time lurker, first-ish time poster here.  I'm one of the freelancers that works on The World's Largest Dungeon, and I'll see if I can answer some of the specifics here without giving _too_ much away. 

*Maps: Every section has its own fully-detailed map.  Every room is detailed, even in cases where you're (infrequently) dealing with an empty room.  We've got a very, very talented cartographer working up the final versions based on the descriptions by myself and other writers.

*Campaign in a box?  sure!  But we've also taken steps to ensure that the WLD can be fitted into nearly any campaign - run a single section, series of sections, or the whole thing.  It's modular, though it won't fit in your back pocket.

*Story?  We've got it.  Everything, and I do mean _everything_ has a reason for being in the WLD.  We're also running the gamut - some sections are tooth-and-nail fights for survival, while others are intrigue and politically-oriented.  We've got horror, romance, dastardly deeds and incredible heroics.

So, any other specific questions?


----------



## Trainz

Thanks Jim ! Of course I have questions !

I have suggested the following earlier:



> Stat out some rooms (more or less half of the encounters), and use generic encounter descriptions for the rest.
> 
> For example, lets say they have 26 generic rooms numbered A to Z. Generic room E could be a room with 3 orcs for example.
> 
> Dungeon rooms 14, 78, 132, 567, 570, 598, 1093, 1130, 1450 and 1543 could have for description: "Generic room E".



Do you have a similar system in that dungeon ? If so, what percentage of the dungeon uses it ?


----------



## Jim Hague

Always happy to oblige. (And edit when I goof up). 

To quote our specs here: even empty rooms have a purpose, even if it's only to allow weary PCs to rest.

Every room in the WLD is unique - even places where you run into a patrol or gang of similar creatures.  

We've gone to some serious effort to make the WLD engaging and exciting.  I can't speak to exact ratios as far as encounters go, but I think you'll find very, very little 'dead' time when PCs venture forth into it.


----------



## Trainz

Thanks Jim, but what is the ratio of such encounters ?

Would you say half the dungeon is redundant ? 10 % ?


----------



## Jim Hague

Trainz said:
			
		

> Thanks Jim, but what is the ratio of such encounters ?
> 
> Would you say half the dungeon is redundant ? 10 % ?




Again, I can't fully speak to everyone's section, but 10% sounds about right, looking at everything so far.  That isn't, I note, a hard and fast number.  We've gone to every effort to balance the time spent in play out - giving PCs places to rest after a battle, allies where needed, and things to do generally.


----------



## BlackMoria

I am concerned with the viability of running a 1 to 20+ level campaign based on a dungeon.  I've heard negative things about RttToEE because people have said that there is far too much dungeon crawl for their liking and this was for a adventure for levels 4-13 that had a solid plotline selling characters on going through the various dungeons.

What make the WLD different, that players are not going to be sick of the dungeon crawl in short order or after a few levels?


----------



## Jim Hague

BlackMoria said:
			
		

> I am concerned with the viability of running a 1 to 20+ level campaign based on a dungeon.  I've heard negative things about RttToEE because people have said that there is far too much dungeon crawl for their liking and this was for a adventure for levels 4-13 that had a solid plotline selling characters on going through the various dungeons.
> 
> What make the WLD different, that players are not going to be sick of the dungeon crawl in short order or after a few levels?





I can answer you with one word: Variety.

The WLD is diverse, moreso, I think, than any product of its kind before it.  This isn't your father's whack-'em dungeon - entire sections have been devoted to intrigue, character and story driven plots, and other sections are a fight for survival.  Care's been taken to provide interesting uses for skills and feats...it's just enormous.  The team working on the WLD is just awesome, and we've done a lot of conferring with one another to make the encounters and denizens of the WLD interesting.  You *will* believe a gibbering mouther can fly. 

We've also done a lot to make it modular - each section isn't a single adventure, but a potential series of adventure.  Think of the WLD as a toolbox: we're providing a set of tools and adventures for you to use as you see fit.


----------



## Psion

> DM's who complain about it being undetailed have no time on their hands and might want to consider letting someone that has the time run the game while they play.




Um, I would say the DMs who complain about empty space in undermountain should stick to running their adventure in areas that are detailed.

I've run many forays through undermountain, and have never had a problem with the players straying into undetailed areas I didn't want them to. Guides, distractions, new walls, and teleports easily keep them where you want them going, and generally the designers tended to only put the entries and teleports in statted areas in the first place.

I think UM was a great product. Gave you room to expand, and it's not as if 160 pages are "undetailed."


----------



## DaveMage

Jim: Welcome to the Boards!

This sounds like the type of product I've wanted to buy for, oh, about 20 years.    

My questions:

1) What's the estimated street date on this? 

2) Will the format be a boxed set, a single book, or multiple books?

3) Will there be player handouts that are included in it?

and, finally, if you know,

4) Will there be on-line downloads that accompany it to make it easier for a DM to run?

Thanks!


----------



## Jim Hague

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Jim: Welcome to the Boards!
> 
> This sounds like the type of product I've wanted to buy for, oh, about 20 years.
> 
> My questions:
> 
> 1) What's the estimated street date on this?
> 
> 2) Will the format be a boxed set, a single book, or multiple books?
> 
> 3) Will there be player handouts that are included in it?
> 
> and, finally, if you know,
> 
> 4) Will there be on-line downloads that accompany it to make it easier for a DM to run?
> 
> Thanks!




Glad to hear enthusiasm, and glad to be here to do my best to answer questions.

I haven't been informed of the street date quite yet, so I can't let you know for sure.  As soon as I do, though, I'll be happy to post it.  Same on the format and price. 

However, I can hint without going into specifics that we're adding a lot of very, very cool stuff to the WLD for both players and DMs.  Handouts are the province of the individual writers and our editor, Jim Pinto, but I wouldn't be surprised to see such a thing pop up.  I do know of the latest addition to the WLD, which will provide a very good reason for PCs to enter the WLD and deal with what's inside, no matter what the party is comprised of, or the campaign setting...but more on that later.

I'll be up front and say this - AEG's d20 and OGL offerings this year are going to make a big impact on the market, IMO.  WLD and the Warlords RPG are looking very sweet, with a _lot_ of bang for your gaming dollar, and the Spycraft and Stargate lines are going to continue to storm the market.  I know, I know, I sound like a marketing flack...but I'm a gamer, just like you folks.  And I wouldn't recommend a product I wouldn't be willing to plunk down my hard-earned cash for.  Even if I did write some of it.


----------



## Trainz

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Again, I can't fully speak to everyone's section, but 10% sounds about right, looking at everything so far. That isn't, I note, a hard and fast number. We've gone to every effort to balance the time spent in play out - giving PCs places to rest after a battle, allies where needed, and things to do generally.



Well, if that figure happens to be true, it certainly is reasonable. And quite an achievement too.

I wouldn't be interested in said product if only half of it was really described.

Thanks for the infos !


----------



## MerakSpielman

What's the speculative price tag on this thing?


----------



## thundershot

Man o man... I'm looking more and more forward to this thing... 



Chris


----------



## johnsemlak

The promo says it will have all monsters from the SRD.  Will it have any new monsters, or perhaps monsters previously introduced as open content?

Will the product have good web support (handouts, web enhancements, etc.)?

In case I missed this tidbit, will the maps be in large pull-out format or page-sized?

Will any of it be in color?


----------



## Jim Hague

Again, I can't speak to the pricing or format yet, because I don't know.  As soon as I do, though, I'll post here to satisfy everyone's curiousity.    

As for the creatures found in the World's Largest Dungeon - we've stuck strictly to the SRD monsters...but don't expect the usual run.  Templates have been applied, advancements made, and the authors of the WLD have run with them. 

We've put a new spin on a lot of the creatures in the SRD for the World's Largest Dungeon, and as the project nears publishing time, I'll see if I can sneak one or two of them onto the boards here as a preview.


----------



## MerakSpielman

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Again, I can't speak to the pricing or format yet, because I don't know. As soon as I do, though, I'll post here to satisfy everyone's curiousity.
> 
> As for the creatures found in the World's Largest Dungeon - we've stuck strictly to the SRD monsters...but don't expect the usual run. Templates have been applied, advancements made, and the authors of the WLD have run with them.
> 
> We've put a new spin on a lot of the creatures in the SRD for the World's Largest Dungeon, and as the project nears publishing time, I'll see if I can sneak one or two of them onto the boards here as a preview.



By the way, if you want a professional editor who will work on RPG products for free (or, rather, for the thrill of getting to see them before the rest of the slavering masses), just email me!*


*a real offer. I can supply resume and portfolio if requested.


----------



## Trainz

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> By the way, if you want a professional editor who will work on RPG products for free (or, rather, for the thrill of getting to see them before the rest of the slavering masses), just email me!*
> 
> 
> *a real offer. I can supply resume and portfolio if requested.



And I must say that Merak is quite good at it too. He's an editor for Cooperative Dungeons, and we're all impressed by his work.


----------



## Jim Hague

I'm but a humble freelancer, alas, but if Merak would like to get an editing gig with AEG, surf out to the site and check out the contact info there.   Good editors are always welcome.


----------



## Frilf

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> By the way, if you want a professional editor who will work on RPG products for free (or, rather, for the thrill of getting to see them before the rest of the slavering masses), just email me!*
> 
> 
> *a real offer. I can supply resume and portfolio if requested.




Send along your details, Merak. We may have a project for you  Check out our site www.silverthornegames.com and use the email link there under "Contact Us" or some such moniker.

Thanks!
Ian


----------



## Cerubus Dark

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> The same goes with traps. Intelligent monsters are not going to build random traps in every hallway unless there are specific story reasons why they might do so. Do you boobytrap your house? Stepping ever so gingerly across the pit trap when you go to the bathroom in the night? I didn't think so. So why would monsters?



Kobolds are that parinoid and nuts enough to build random traps around their lairs. So it makes some sence to see random traps that have no real meaning to other monsters, it shows you abit about the designers of the dungeons.


----------



## Frilf

Cerubus Dark said:
			
		

> Kobolds are that parinoid and nuts enough to build random traps around their lairs. So it makes some sence to see random traps that have no real meaning to other monsters, it shows you abit about the designers of the dungeons.




I agree on the kobold thing: small, jittery, not-too-bright = random traps.
Cool avatar, BTW, Cerubus


----------



## MerakSpielman

Frilf said:
			
		

> I agree on the kobold thing: small, jittery, not-too-bright = random traps.
> Cool avatar, BTW, Cerubus



Plus, your average kobold doesn't stand a chance in a straight-up fight. Best to kill off intruders remotely.


----------



## Arnwyn

Psion said:
			
		

> Gave you room to expand,



That's a bit of an understatement...


----------



## Conaill

So here's my own question for Jim:

Did they *really* mean 1600 _encounters_? Seems like they might have meant "1600 creatures, traps, hazards and other challenges". If we assume WLD is supposed to takle players all the way from 1st to 20th level at 13.33 encounters per level, plus some extra encounters the party might not run int, we're getting close to 300 encounters. 1600/300 = 5 to 6 critters per encounter. _That_ sounds more reasonable...


----------



## Jim Hague

Not _all_ of the encounters have a trap, creature or hazard.  

There's a _lot_ of encounters in the World's Largest Dungeon - at a very, very rough estimate, there's about 100 interesting things in a given area,  including plot-oriented NPCs and other goodies, and somewhere in the vicinity of 20 or so areas.  Don't take those as hard and fast numbers, folks, because there's edits to consider, and we're adding cool new stuff all the time.

The WLD can take characters from 1st level all the way to epic, or if GMs prefer to keep the XP lower or adapt the WLD to their own world, somewhere father or lower.  Each encounter that has a EL can be adjusted up or down to suit individual characters and parties.  

Again, think of the WLD as a toolbox, adventure, campaign and idea generator, all in one.  Besides the WLD itself, encounters and maps, we're including some very cool goodies in the text to explain all those niggling questions that are cropping up about fitting it into individual campaign worlds.  

-alias Jim Hague.  The freelancer, not Jim Pinto, the editor.


----------



## DaveMage

Well, not to labor the point, but I salute AEG and all the people involved in its creation for bringing something like this to print.

I'm sure it won't please everyone (nothing ever does), but it'll be in my possession as soon as it I can get my hands on it.

Of course, now I'm excited about it and it stinks to have to wait for it.    

However, I'd also rather AEG take the time to get it right.  I'd rather it be delayed to do extra proofreading/editing and get it right than rush it to market.

Good luck, Jim!


----------



## Cerubus Dark

Gah, now that I have had 4 hours of sleep, and re-read this thread I have decided two things.  

1.  I need more than 4 hours of sleep(stupid knee).

2.  Must have WLD, must torment players with 1600 encounters.  Must add in Ninja Pirate Commandos.  Mostly the 1600 encounters... *drool*


----------



## Psion

Cerubus Dark said:
			
		

> 2.  Must have WLD,




Weapons of Lass Destruction?


----------



## Cerubus Dark

Psion said:
			
		

> Weapons of Lass Destruction?



Only if she is mean and ugly.


----------



## Thanee

Definititely sounds interesting (more like I would have imagined from reading the teaser), what Jim has said so far.  This will be worth a look at least.

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## Tharen the Damned

d4 said:
			
		

> forgive my math geeking, but i just realized that either there's a whole bunch of lower than average-party-level encounters, or the PCs aren't expected to encounter even a _fraction_ of the dungeon.
> 
> at the standard 13.33 encounters per level paradigm, the PCs would be around 120th level after 1600 encounters!




120th Lvl?

Not if you have enough TPK encounters and if the PCs have to start in the 1st lvl. again!


----------



## Conaill

Psion said:
			
		

> Weapons of Lass Destruction?



Weapons of _Less_ Destruction.

For the kinder, gentler tyrant.


----------



## Cerubus Dark

Conaill said:
			
		

> Weapons of _Less_ Destruction.
> 
> For the kinder, gentler tyrant.



Oh great, a tyrant on Prozac just what we need.


----------



## Cerubus Dark

Tharen the Damned said:
			
		

> 120th Lvl?
> 
> Not if you have enough TPK encounters and if the PCs have to start in the 1st lvl. again!



You could take it Epic you know.   Complete the WLD and go kick the crud out of Hextor    I like it.


----------



## blackshirt5

Fieari said:
			
		

> And if not... do I smell a "Worlds Largest Cooperative Dungeon" by ENWorlders?  It'd require QUITE a bit of organization, some quality assuarance work, a bit of itinerant playtesting, but think how cool it could be!




Count me in for that man!  I've been toying with the idea of suggesting this myself, but didn't think I'd get much support; I'm a young'un, but I LOVE a good dungeon crawl!

I even had a basic intro and concept for the dungeon too.


----------



## jim pinto

hi gang

for those of you who don't know me, i'm jim pinto, the art director for AEG
and the line developer for our d20 topic line. and now the designer of the
world's largest dungeon.

i'm not going to give you the entire farm today.

for starters, its saturday and i'm busy editing this mamba-jamba.

secondly, everyone keeps throwing out questions that we can't answer yet.

what i do know is this.

its nearly 1 million words of text
it has 1,600 rooms and each room has SOMETHING in it.

even if it says, this room is empty except for the dust, there's
rules on how to make the room cooler.

for those of you who attended gama, you already know this, but the map was so tall we couldn't show the whole thing. the height restrictions of the space prevented us from displaying all 16 22 x 17 inch maps.

we used every monster from the SRD
we used every template
we added some "new touches" that i think you'll enjoy
and provided an environment that you can use to play one
giant campaign or cut into dozens of seperate "bug hunts".

jim hague keeps calling it a toolbox (i think he's quoting me,
but i'm not sure). but, he's right. the most important thing
to us was that the product was easy to use. great story
and great encounters were second to that.

beyond that, the book is going to be like nothing else in gaming.
before or after.

i'll post more when i get a chance, in the mean time, i appreciate
your enthusiasm and if there's a thread somewhere that i've ignored,
please direct me.

- jim pinto
world's largest dungeon
the best product of 2004


----------



## blackshirt5

Sounds cool Jim.

And for those interested I started a topic on a Cooperative World's Largest Dungeon(for those who just can't wait for this to come out) right here: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=81203
And I hope it'll spark interest.


----------



## Asmo

Welcome to the boards Jim!
This looks awesome, I´m so going to buy this book!!
My gang really - and I mean really - like dungeon crawls, so this would be  the coolest thing possible.
Can´t wait!!

Asmo


----------



## DaveMage

jim,

Thanks for stopping by!  Any tidbits you wish to offer are appreciated.

Very much looking forward to this one.


----------



## Impeesa

So has anyone given a release date for this other than "2004"? I can't seem to find one.. mind you, I can't seem to find any mention of the book at all on AEG's site. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## jim pinto

*due out*



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> So has anyone given a release date for this other than "2004"? I can't seem to find one.. mind you, I can't seem to find any mention of the book at all on AEG's site.
> 
> --Impeesa--




well

i'm editing and writing 14 hours a day so you can have it at gencon

how's that?


----------



## Impeesa

W00t. I know what I'm running when everyone comes back at the end of the summer. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> well
> 
> i'm editing and writing 14 hours a day so you can have it at gencon
> 
> how's that?




Um, last I checked there were 24 hours in a day.  

What the heck are you doing with the other 10 hours?  

C'mon, man, get with it!


----------



## Leopold

this puppy is gonna be done by Gencon?!?!? And I ain't gonna be there??!?! SHOOT!


----------



## blackshirt5

Leopold said:
			
		

> this puppy is gonna be done by Gencon?!?!? And I ain't gonna be there??!?! SHOOT!



 My sentiments exactly Leo.


----------



## slingbld

jim pinto said:
			
		

> well
> 
> i'm editing and writing 14 hours a day so you can have it at gencon
> 
> how's that?




Must have me PRECIOUS!!

He cannots expects us to wait till GENCON!!  ARGH!!!!!!


----------



## MerakSpielman

You know, it seems perfectly reasonable to post on your site, as a free download, one level of this dungeon... just as a teaser, mind you.


----------



## DaveMage

Heh.

From what it sounds like, "one level" is going to equate to the size of most published adventures.


----------



## Leopold

Need More Updates


----------



## jim pinto

*update this!*



			
				Leopold said:
			
		

> Need More Updates




March 23rd. 7pm PST.

I'm about 50% done with the edits and the maps are gorgeous.
I wish I could post them, but each one is about 300 mb, so you'll
just have to wait.

So, that means I'll have to show you some art or maybe
some text... hmm... text....

Since I won't be making a 60 page pdf for FREE, I guess I
should give you guys ONE encounter....

But what sort of encounter should I tempt you with...?

Let me think.

Let me think....

Hmm....

.....

.....

Okay. This is from Map D, a portion of the dungeon where derro
have started digging under the earth, with no rhyme or reason...

well... there is a reason... but the PCs don't know that

and the DM better not tell <shaking fist>

text by Robert J. Schwalb

D40. Platform
Framing the great drill are four huge metal poles, easily 5 ft. thick. Atop of the poles, 80 ft. high, stands a platform. From one side descends a ramp. Two ladders, on the opposite side offer access to the top.

	Initial Attitude: Indifferent
	Encounter: Working atop the platform are six formian workers (5 hp) who use force clamps to move the rock from the helical thread to the iron carts. Two stone giants (hp 119 each) push the carts onto the tracked ramp — Room D35 — to travel down to Room D33. These creatures are oblivious to combat and do nothing to aid those below, focused obsessively on their work.
	Tactics: These creatures do not initiate combat, nor do they converse with PCs. If attacked, however, the stone giants fight back. The formian workers flee, scuttling down the ladders as quickly as they can. The stone giants hurl chunks of rock as they come up the thread until the PCs close to melee. Then, the giants make bull rush attacks to knock them from the platform. The ballistae at Room D43 and Room D45 have a clear line of sight to the platform and direct their attacks there if combat breaks out, unconcerned if they happen to hit a stone giant or formian. If the PCs reduce the giants to 10 hit points or less, they surrender. 
	A fall from the platform deals 8d6 points of damage.
		If platform is destroyed, the bore falls to the floor in a random direction. With the platform, the ramp at Room D35 falls as well. To see the falling drills’ direction, roll 1d20 and consult the table below.

1d20	Result
1–3	Falls on Room D47 and collapses the building. All creatures within take 3d6 points of damage and the monsters go on a killing spree, heading in random directions, attacking as many creatures as possible.
4–7	Falls to the floor, creating a tremor as if you had rolled 2-4 on the Random Encounter Table for this Section.
8–10	Falls to the floor, creating a tremor as if you had rolled 2-4 on the Random Encounter Table for this Section. In addition, it lands on the track between Rooms D34 and D41, halting the transport of truesilver. 
11–13	Falls on Room D33 and collapses the building. All creatures inside take 3d6 points of damage.
14–16	Falls on Room D37 and collapses the building. All creatures inside take 3d6 points of damage. In addition, the surviving monsters go on a killing spree, wreaking havoc throughout the Section.
17–19	Falls on Room D38, destroying the cistern, killing the formian warriors and the crippled derro.
20	Falls on Room D46, killing all inhabitants. Destruction of this magnitude shuts down the entire operation as described in Room D39.
	EL: 10
	Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, make the platform unstable, requiring PCs to succeed DC 18 Balance checks to keep their footing. If they fail by 5 or more, they fall to the ground 80 ft. below. In addition, add two more formian workers, so they can heal one of the stone giants. To decrease the challenge, remove one of the stone giants.

Formian Worker: CR 1/2; Small outsider (lawful, extraplanar); HD 1d8+1; hp 5; Init +2; Spd 40 ft.; AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 15; Base Atk +1; Grp –2; Atk +3 melee (1d4+1, bite); Full Atk +3 melee (1d4+1, bite); SA —; SQ Cure serious wounds, hive mind, immunity to poison, petrification, and cold, make whole, resistance to electricity 10, fire 10, and sonic 10; AL LN; SV Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2; Str 13, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 9.
	Skills and Feats: Climb +10, Craft (stonemasonry) +5, Hide +6, Listen +4, Search +2, Spot +4; Skill Focus (Craft [stonemasonry]).
	Cure Serious Wounds (Sp): Eight workers together can heal a creature’s wounds as though using the cure serious wounds spell (caster level 7th). This is a full-round action for all eight workers.
	Hive Mind (Ex): All formians within 50 miles of their queen are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flat-footed, none of them are. No formian in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are.
	Make Whole (Sp): Three workers together can repair an object as though using the make whole spell (caster level 7th). This is a fullround action for all three workers.

Stone Giant: CR 8; Large giant (earth); HD 14d8+56; hp 119; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 25, touch 11, flat-footed 23; Base Atk +10; Grp +22; Atk +17 melee (1d4+8, slam) or +11 ranged (2d8+12, rock); Full Atk +17 melee (1d4+8, 2 slams) or +11 ranged (2d8+12, rock); Space/Reach 10 ft./10 ft.; SA Rock throwing; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, rock catching; AL NE; SV Fort +13, Ref +6, Will +7; Str 27, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11
	Skills and Feats: Climb +11, Hide +6*, Jump +11, Spot +12; Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot.
	Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 180 ft. for a stone giant’s thrown rocks. It uses both hands when throwing a rock.
	Rock Catching (Ex): A stone giant gains a +4 racial bonus on its Reflex save when attempting to catch a thrown rock.
	Skills: * A stone giant gains a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks in rocky terrain.


----------



## KyleVoltti

[neo]woah......[/neo]

Just for a lark I grabed some of my AEG books and tried to figure out 800+ pages....... you could kill a small animal with this thing


----------



## thundershot

Interesting... I like the detail. Will creatures have "Possessions" listed as well? My players are ALWAYS searching EVERYTHING'S pockets... even if they don't have pockets...   


Chris


----------



## DaveMage

OK.  I'm impressed.


----------



## Zappo

Whoa! This sounds _good_!


----------



## Leopold

i hate i have to wait till GC for this thing!!


----------



## KyleVoltti

Leopold said:
			
		

> i hate i have to wait till GC for this thing!!




Don't complain, I'm not going to Gencon so i'll have to wait longer


----------



## Leopold

KyleVoltti said:
			
		

> Don't complain, I'm not going to Gencon so i'll have to wait longer





me either! Sucks!


----------



## jim pinto

Leopold said:
			
		

> me either! Sucks!




here's a small jpg of the banner from gama

3/4 of the whole map anyway


----------



## DaveMage

Impressive.

And every room is detailed, eh?  

Most impressive.


----------



## Trainz

This is quite simply overwhelming.


----------



## Buddha the DM

damn that map is huge.. i will try to get my hands on this once it comes out.


----------



## Arnwyn

Gridded and detailed maps! Sold!


----------



## MerakSpielman

Hey people making the WBD, I strongly suggest you settle on a price and start taking pre-orders. Enthusiasm is running high, and you might want to take advantage of it.


----------



## Leopold

jim pinto said:
			
		

> here's a small jpg of the banner from gama
> 
> 3/4 of the whole map anyway





my god..i see stars......

and AEG sees DOLLAR SIGNS!

Now the price break on this bad boy better be low..you make this $100 plus and i'll be laughing my head off on it...

I would gander at least $50-60 and then I could go in on it.


----------



## MerakSpielman

I know! They could take a page out of WoTC's book. Sell dungeon "packs," each with a random collection of 20 rooms from the WBD. There are, of course, common, uncommon, and rare rooms. These packs cost $5 each. Now, of course, you have to spend in excess of $5000 to make sure you get *most* of the rare rooms (which have the best stuff in them), but hell, it's collectable AND tradable!


----------



## Leopold

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> I know! They could take a page out of WoTC's book. Sell dungeon "packs," each with a random collection of 20 rooms from the WBD. There are, of course, common, uncommon, and rare rooms. These packs cost $5 each. Now, of course, you have to spend in excess of $5000 to make sure you get *most* of the rare rooms (which have the best stuff in them), but hell, it's collectable AND tradable!





please step away from the crack pipe


----------



## DaveMage

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> I know! They could take a page out of WoTC's book. Sell dungeon "packs," each with a random collection of 20 rooms from the WBD. There are, of course, common, uncommon, and rare rooms. These packs cost $5 each. Now, of course, you have to spend in excess of $5000 to make sure you get *most* of the rare rooms (which have the best stuff in them), but hell, it's collectable AND tradable!




Brilliant!

Now all you have to do is write up a press release explaing how this, naturally, benefits the consumer!


----------



## Orius

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Brilliant!
> 
> Now all you have to do is write up a press release explaing how this, naturally, benefits the consumer!




Maybe market them as geomorphs for 3.5e or something.


----------



## jim pinto

*as if you didn't hate me enough....*



			
				Orius said:
			
		

> Maybe market them as geomorphs for 3.5e or something.




I promise to post another encounter by the end of the day,
but once 5pm hits, I'm out of here to see a special premiere of hellboy
tonight in hollywood.

peace


----------



## jim pinto

*oops*

E90. Hall of the Fallen
Fog clings to the floor of this room, crawling up the many columns reaching the ceiling. The floor is moist and the lights subdued, giving the room the feel of a natural subterranean formation. Skittering creatures can be heard in the distance, but with all this fog, the source of the noise may be much closer. The columns are all covered in text in a range of languages, all carved directly into the stone.

Initial Attitude: Hostile
Encounter: There are five giant fire beetles (hp 5 each), two Medium monstrous scorpions (hp 13 each), and three Medium monstrous spiders (hp 11 each) lurking in this room.
	The texts on the columns are eulogies and messages written by members of the garrison to those who fell in battle.

Tactics: Insects of a like type swarm a single target before moving on to a new victim. If any of the PCs are dropped, the insects swarm on that PC to feast on his flesh.
	The monstrous scorpions use their Constitution damaging poison to hurt bards, sorcerers, wizards, and anyone with few hit points. Lastly, the spiders target barbarians, fighters, and PCs who rely heavily on Strength.
	DMs who fully want to take advantage of this encounter, should increase the DC of these saves by 3 or more to really challenge the PCs. If anyone escapes this encounter without some ability score damage, this encounter was too easy.
Treasure: N/A
EL: 5
Scaling: To increase the challenge of the encounter, increase the number of each insect type by two, increase the DC of their poison by 2, and give them Total Concealment. To reduce the challenge, reduce the number of each insect type by one.

Giant Fire Beetle: CR 1/3; Small vermin; HD 1d8; hp 5; Init +0; Spd 30 ft.; AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 16; Base Atk +0; Grp –4; Atk +1 melee (2d4, bite); Full Atk +1 melee (2d4, bite); SA —; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits; AL N; SV Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +0; Str 10, Dex 11, Con 11, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 7.
Skills and Feats: —

Monstrous Scorpion, Medium: CR 1; Medium vermin; HD 2d8+4; hp 13; Init +0; Spd 40 ft.; AC 14, touch 10, flat-footed 14; Base Atk +1; Grp +2; Atk +2 melee (1d4+1, claw); Full Atk +2 melee (1d4+1, 2 claws) and –3 melee (1d4 plus poison, sting); SA Constrict 1d4+1, improved grab, poison; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits; AL N; SV Fort +5, Ref +0, Will +0; Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2.
Skills and Feats: Climb +5, Hide +4, Spot +4
	Constrict (Ex): A monstrous scorpion deals automatic claw damage on a successful grapple check.
	Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a monstrous scorpion must hit with a claw attack. A monstrous scorpion can use either its Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for grapple checks, whichever is better.
	Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 13, initial and secondary damage 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.
	Skills: A monstrous scorpion has a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Spot checks.

Monstrous Spider, Medium: CR 1; Medium vermin; HD 2d8+2; hp 11; Init +3; Spd 30 ft., climb 20 ft.; AC 14, touch 13, flat-footed 11; Base Atk +1; Grp +1; Atk +4 melee (1d6 plus poison, bite); Full Atk +4 melee (1d6 plus poison, bite); SA Poison, web; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits; AL N; SV Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +0; Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2.
	Skills and Feats: Climb +11, Hide +7*, Jump +0*, Spot +4*; Weapon FinesseB
	Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 12, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based.
	Web (Ex): Monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size.
	A monstrous spider can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.
	Tremorsense (Ex): A monstrous spider can detect and pinpoint any creature or object within 60 ft. in contact with the ground, or within any range in contact with the spider’s webs.
	Skills: Monstrous spiders have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A monstrous spider can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Monstrous spiders use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher.
	*Hunting spiders have a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks.


----------



## DaveMage

Cool.

Let's see - 1600 encounters - could we have a preview each week?


----------



## MerakSpielman

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Cool.
> 
> Let's see - 1600 encounters - could we have a preview each week?



...and then we'll have the whole thing after only... 30 years...


----------



## jim pinto

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> ...and then we'll have the whole thing after only... 30 years...




in that case, you can have two a week


----------



## DaveMage

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> ...and then we'll have the whole thing after only... 30 years...




Well, I didn't want to be greedy.  

Two a week sounds good to me!

I'm really looking forward to seeing how this all works out.  I like the detail that's gone into the two rooms that have been posted, and I hope that this is the standard for the other rooms.  

For jim pinto: You've made references that the dungeon is modular so that you don't have to go through the whole thing to get use from the product, but what if someone *wants* to go through the whole thing?  Are the areas linked in such a way that the reward (story, sense of accomplishment, etc.) would be greater if you do get through the whole thing?  In other words, is there an overall story arc (or multiple ones) that would be realized if this dungeon became the sole basis for a campaign?


----------



## Leopold

works for me!


----------



## Leopold

works for me!


----------



## Tharen the Damned

I think I have to play the Advocatus Diaboli.

Bias: What I know o tWbD ist from the various Tidbits Pinto posted in this Threat. For a projekt this large, the previews gleaned can only be a very, very small bit of the whole content.
This is just my first impression, but as you know. First impressions tend to stick.

1) The map(s).
While certainly large and detailed, they don´t strike me as, for the lack of a better word, cool. They remind me of the various Undermountain maps from the 1st. or 2nd Edition boxed Sets.
Ok, I get nostalgic feelings but when I look at maps from Ed Bourelle for example this map lacks appeal. 

2) The posted encounter.
On the first view it is nice and detailed. Good Idea to include the complete Stats and not only HP and the reference page in the MM.
But:



			
				jim pinto said:
			
		

> Tactics: Insects of a like type swarm a single target before moving on to a new victim. If any of the PCs are dropped, the insects swarm on that PC to feast on his flesh.
> The monstrous scorpions use their Constitution damaging poison to hurt bards, sorcerers, wizards, and anyone with few hit points. Lastly, the spiders target barbarians, fighters, and PCs who rely heavily on Strength.
> DMs who fully want to take advantage of this encounter, should increase the DC of these saves by 3 or more to really challenge the PCs. If anyone escapes this encounter without some ability score damage, this encounter was too easy.




Well, these are Insects without any intelligence! So how can they employ tactics? They should attack randomly. As a player I would protest, if they ignore the front row fighter and head straight to my wizard who hides behind the cleric.
Next it strikes me as strange, that so many different insect species just wait for the PCs instead of a) just eating the other species or b) wander to a room with better feeding opportunities.
I don´t like this encounter very much.

Reminder: This was just my first impression!


What do you say?


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

*Question about the map...*

It seems the maps are broken into "sections."

Please tell me that each section will fit, unbroken, on a single battlemat!

Was any thought given to scaling the maps against the most common battlemat sizes?


Wulf


----------



## Greybar

I agree with Tharen.  Not a good indicator if vermin with no Int scores specifically seek out targets by class.  Hope this isn't a common sign through the product...

john


----------



## jessemock

Greybar said:
			
		

> I agree with Tharen.  Not a good indicator if vermin with no Int scores specifically seek out targets by class.  Hope this isn't a common sign through the product...
> 
> john




Plus, why are fire beetles, scorpions, and spiders hanging out?  Do they like each other?


----------



## thundershot

jessemock said:
			
		

> Plus, why are fire beetles, scorpions, and spiders hanging out?  Do they like each other?




[strongbad mode] Oh yeah, man! Those guys, they go way back. They were pretty good buds in high school. They all used to hang out, drink brewskis, hit on the ladies, and knock over liquor stores... There was even the practical joke they played on the monstrous centipedes involving a dire goat. Man, those were the days... [/strongbad mode]




Chris (can't wait for this adventure!)


----------



## Kentares

*You can say whatever you want but...*

... this product has a lot of potential. Even if one doesnt like dungeon bashing... eheh. I´ll buy it. It will save me a lot of time for the nest couple... of years...


----------



## Kentares

*You can say whatever you want but...*

... this product has a lot of potential. Even if one doesnt like dungeon bashing... eheh. I´ll buy it. It will save me a lot of time for the next couple... of years...


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Well, I didn't want to be greedy.
> 
> Two a week sounds good to me!
> 
> I'm really looking forward to seeing how this all works out.  I like the detail that's gone into the two rooms that have been posted, and I hope that this is the standard for the other rooms.
> 
> For jim pinto: You've made references that the dungeon is modular so that you don't have to go through the whole thing to get use from the product, but what if someone *wants* to go through the whole thing?  Are the areas linked in such a way that the reward (story, sense of accomplishment, etc.) would be greater if you do get through the whole thing?  In other words, is there an overall story arc (or multiple ones) that would be realized if this dungeon became the sole basis for a campaign?




yes there is.

a lot of thought went into the background of the story.
a way to tie everything together thematically, as well
as flavor wise. originally, we thought it would be enough
to just have a big dungeon with lots of cool stuff in it,
but before i drew a single map, kevin millard and i brainstormed
a story that (i hope) everyone will nod and say... whoa.
that's never been done before.

so. run it as 16 seperate adventures or one giant campaign
its up to you.


----------



## jim pinto

Tharen the Damned said:
			
		

> I think I have to play the Advocatus Diaboli.
> 
> Bias: What I know o tWbD ist from the various Tidbits Pinto posted in this Threat. For a projekt this large, the previews gleaned can only be a very, very small bit of the whole content.
> This is just my first impression, but as you know. First impressions tend to stick.
> 
> 1) The map(s).
> While certainly large and detailed, they don´t strike me as, for the lack of a better word, cool. They remind me of the various Undermountain maps from the 1st. or 2nd Edition boxed Sets.
> Ok, I get nostalgic feelings but when I look at maps from Ed Bourelle for example this map lacks appeal.
> 
> 2) The posted encounter.
> On the first view it is nice and detailed. Good Idea to include the complete Stats and not only HP and the reference page in the MM.
> But:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, these are Insects without any intelligence! So how can they employ tactics? They should attack randomly. As a player I would protest, if they ignore the front row fighter and head straight to my wizard who hides behind the cleric.
> Next it strikes me as strange, that so many different insect species just wait for the PCs instead of a) just eating the other species or b) wander to a room with better feeding opportunities.
> I don´t like this encounter very much.
> 
> Reminder: This was just my first impression!
> 
> 
> What do you say?




the map you saw is printed at 1/100th of the final scale
(its over 6 feet tall).

as for tactics, the tactics of this encounter allow the DM to
use the monster's to the best of their natural abilities. tactics
can easily be ignored for logic, or for systemic reasons. but,
if the DM really wants to torture the PCs, he'll conveniently
have the scorpion closer to the dwarf barbarian with the low
AC.

since the introduction of the book, which i haven't posted,
details what monsters are DOING when the PCs enter a room,
its completely random whether they are eating grubs, playing
mah-jong, or relaying stories about the PC that got away.


----------



## Leopold

I say let the man finish his work and post more rooms!!!!


----------



## jim pinto

Leopold said:
			
		

> I say let the man finish his work and post more rooms!!!!




Since today's theme was about "boring" rooms, i thought i'd post something I just finished editing/writing.

Its 1030pm and the proofreader hasn't checked this, so if there are any mistakes I apologize.

And Leopold... i won't count this as one of the two for the week.

Fair?




C86. Former Adventurers’ Chamber

Though this small Room was originally designed to hold a prisoner, the lock was destroyed long ago.

The stench of decay pervades in this room and a look inside instantly reveals the source of the foul smell. The body of a dwarf, curled up in the fetal position, lies in the southwest corner. Almost no meat remains upon the skeletal corpse, but the odor of rotted flesh lingers.

Initial Attitude: N/A
Encounter: Long after its original captive was gone, the Room was used as a bedchamber. A dwarven male lies on a rotten blanket in this bedchamber, his cancerous form so diseased it doesn't even attract flies.

Anyone touching or examing the dwarf's body must suceed at a DC 18 Fortitude save or contract demon fever (which is normally a disease only spread through injury).

Demon Fever—Contact, Fortitude DC 18, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d6 Con [When damaged, character must succeed on another saving throw or 1 point of damage is permanent drain instead.]

Tactics: N/A
Treasure: There are three old bedrolls in the corner, plus a diseased and rotted blanket on which the dwarf rests. A successful DC 20 Search check reveals a leather scroll case and a small copper holy symbol (worth 5 gp) hidden in the closed skeletal fist of the dwarven corpse. The case contains three divine scrolls — calm emotion, freedom of movement, and protection from evil. 
EL: N/A
Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, add devil chills. To decrease the challenge, replace demon fever with mind fire.


----------



## Tharen the Damned

jim pinto said:
			
		

> the map you saw is printed at 1/100th of the final scale
> (its over 6 feet tall).




Ok I take back what I said about the map. Gimme a good map and I am hooked. Gimme a bad map and... Well, is ist possible, that you post a small part of it in the final scale?



			
				jim pinto said:
			
		

> as for tactics, the tactics of this encounter allow the DM to
> use the monster's to the best of their natural abilities. tactics
> can easily be ignored for logic, or for systemic reasons. but,
> if the DM really wants to torture the PCs, he'll conveniently
> have the scorpion closer to the dwarf barbarian with the low
> AC.
> 
> since the introduction of the book, which i haven't posted,
> details what monsters are DOING when the PCs enter a room,
> its completely random whether they are eating grubs, playing
> mah-jong, or relaying stories about the PC that got away.




I think this is take on encounters is dependend on individual style. As I said, I don´t like it, but many other DMs might.



			
				jim pinto said:
			
		

> C86. Former Adventurers’ Chamber
> 
> Though this small Room was originally designed to hold a prisoner, the lock was destroyed long ago.
> 
> The stench of decay pervades in this room and a look inside instantly reveals the source of the foul smell. The body of a dwarf, curled up in the fetal position, lies in the southwest corner. Almost no meat remains upon the skeletal corpse, but the odor of rotted flesh lingers.
> 
> Initial Attitude: N/A
> Encounter: Long after its original captive was gone, the Room was used as a bedchamber. A dwarven male lies on a rotten blanket in this bedchamber, his cancerous form so diseased it doesn't even attract flies.
> Anyone touching or examing the dwarf's body must suceed at a DC 18 Fortitude save or contract demon fever.
> 
> Demon Fever—Injury, Fortitude DC 18, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d6 Con [When damaged, character must succeed on another saving throw or 1 point of damage is permanent drain instead.]
> 
> Tactics: N/A
> Treasure: There are three old bedrolls in the corner, plus a diseased and rotted blanket on which the dwarf rests. A successful DC 20 Search check reveals a leather scroll case and a small copper holy symbol (worth 5 gp) hidden in the closed skeletal fist of the dwarven corpse. The case contains three divine scrolls — calm emotion, freedom of movement, and protection from evil.
> EL: N/A
> Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, add devil chills. To decrease the challenge, replace demon fever with mind fire.




I like this "boring room" desription very much. I can whip up a Fight encounter on the fly if need be (open MM or ToH and take out monster), but I have to rake my brain for a good "boring room".

So my second impresson is much better than the first.


----------



## jim pinto

*week of april 1st*

i was so tempted to post a funny encounter today,
with half-dragon clowns and sandwich golems

but realized that time would be better served actually
editing this book.

that said, what kind of encounter do you guys want to
see today?

i'll post it by the end of the day, if i have something edited,
but its your call.


----------



## thundershot

I'm more worried about too many spoilers showing up for the players.. hm... how about... show a nifty trapped room... yess....


Chris


----------



## DaveMage

Or a riddle/puzzle room.

Either sounds good to me!


----------



## jim pinto

thundershot said:
			
		

> I'm more worried about too many spoilers showing up for the players.. hm... how about... show a nifty trapped room... yess....
> 
> 
> Chris




you're worried about spoilers in a dungeon of 1,600 rooms?

AND you want a trap room?

sigh

here's a low-level trap room, but a particularly fun combination of effects.

i hope this doesn't give too much away

A85. Sleep Trap
The doors to this room are open.

A single raised column, five feet high, rests in the center of the room. A clear glass sphere, embedded in the stone, sits atop the column, as soft light cascades over its surface. Resting on the glass sphere and balancing on its tip is an ivory tusk, about nine inches long, and carved with faint, archaic runes. The tusk is shaped as a weapon, complete with pommel.
	Two blackened octopi lie on the floor, tentacles splayed.

	Initial Attitude: Hostile
	Encounter: There are actually three large fiendish darkmantles (hp 13) in the room: two on the ground, and one clinging to the ceiling 30 ft. up. It is difficult to see (Spot check, DC 25) unless the PCs look up (+10 circumstance bonus to the Spot check). While exploring, the trio triggered a trap centered on the column. The two fiendish darkmantles on the ground fell victim to a flare and sleep trap that is triggered when anyone touches the tusk [dagger of venom]. The flare fills the Room with a bright flash, blinding everyone, while the sleep trap only affects the PC touching the stone. Whether the PCs successfully save against these trap effects or not, the flare negates the use of darkvision and low-light vision for 1 minute.

Flare Trap: CR 1; magic device; touch trigger; automatic reset; spell effect (flare, 5th-level wizard, all within 20 ft. are dazzled for 1 minute, DC 10 Fort save negates); Search DC 26; Disable Device DC 26.

Sleep Trap: CR 2; magic device; touch trigger; automatic reset; spell effect (sleep, 5th-level wizard, up to 4HD of creatures fall magically asleep for 5 minutes, DC 11 Will save negates); Search DC 26; Disable Device DC 26.

	Tactics: Having avoided the sleep trap, the third fiendish darkmantle ponders what to do when the PCs arrive. Should they trigger the trap, it must save again against the flare trap, but does not lose its darkvision. If the PCs do not Spot it, allow it a 20 on its Iniative check to invoke darkness. Although it's intelligent enough to wake the other darkmantles, it does not care enough to bother.
	The sleeping fiendish darkmantles awaken in 2d4 rounds. While normal noise does not rouse them, any movement within 5 ft. allows them a DC 25 Listen check and movement into a square where one lies awakens them 50% of the time. Stepping on one awakens it immediately; however, prodding it does not. Once awake, the fiendish darkmantles require a standard action to get their bearings, and then enter combat.
	Although aggressive, these fiendish darkmantles do not fight to the death and being reduced to 50% or fewer starting hit points is enough to make any single darkmantle flee. Fleeing darkmantles invoke darkness to aid their escape. If healthy, they pursue fleeing PCs.
	Treasure: The dagger of venom on the pedastal radiates Faint necromancy and is evil.
	EL: 4
	Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, add darkness to the trap that triggers one round after flare. In addition, neither Turag or Boyikt have seen this trap before. To decrease the challenge, remove one fiendish darkmantle.
Fiendish Darkmantle: CR 2; Small magical beast (extraplanar); HD 2d10+2; hp 13; Init +4; Spd 20 ft., fly 30 ft. (poor); AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 17; Base Atk +1; Grp +0; Atk +5 melee (1d4+4, slam); Full Atk +5 melee (1d4+4, slam); SA Darkness, improved grab, constrict 1d4+4, smite good; SQ Blindsight 90 ft., resistance to cold and fire 5, spell resistance 6; AL NE; SV Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +0; Str 16, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 10.
	Skills and Feats: Hide +10, Listen +6*, Spot +6*; Improved Initiative.
	Darkness (Su): Once per day a fiendish darkmantle can cause darkness as the darkness spell (caster level 5th). It most often uses this ability just before attacking.
	Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a fiendish darkmantle must hit a Large or smaller creature with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
	If it wins the grapple check, it attaches to the opponent’s head and can constrict.
	Constrict (Ex): A fiendish darkmantle deals 1d4+4 points of damage with a successful grapple check.
	Smite Good (Su): Once per day a fiendish darkmantle can make a normal melee attack to deal 1 extra point of damage against a good foe.
	Blindsight (Ex): A fiendish darkmantle can “see” by emitting high-frequency sounds, inaudible to most other creatures, that allows it to ascertain objects and creatures within 90 ft. A silence spell negates this ability and effectively blinds the fiendish darkmantle.
	Skills: A fiendish darkmantle has a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checkxs. These bonuses are lost if its blindsight is negated. The creature’s variable coloration gives it a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks.


----------



## thundershot

> you're worried about spoilers in a dungeon of 1,600 rooms?
> 
> AND you want a trap room?
> 
> sigh




I wasn't worried... I MEANT I couldn't ask for, say, where a Unicorn appears, or the Tarrasque, because there's likely few Unicorns in a dungeon, and describing the room with the Unicorn might prove to be a spoiler for people. I mean, what if it's a HALF-FIEND UNICORN?!

So blah! 



Chris


----------



## jim pinto

thundershot said:
			
		

> I wasn't worried... I MEANT I couldn't ask for, say, where a Unicorn appears, or the Tarrasque, because there's likely few Unicorns in a dungeon, and describing the room with the Unicorn might prove to be a spoiler for people. I mean, what if it's a HALF-FIEND UNICORN?!
> 
> So blah!
> 
> 
> 
> Chris




would it make you cry to know the unicorn in this adventure has both its legs broken when the PCs find it?



and the terrasque encounter is over 2,000 words long.
you are NOT getting that one for free.

second most brutal encounter in the dungeon.

easy.


----------



## KB9JMQ

Great so far.
This is going on a must have list.


----------



## thundershot

jim pinto said:
			
		

> would it make you cry to know the unicorn in this adventure has both its legs broken when the PCs find it?
> 
> 
> 
> and the terrasque encounter is over 2,000 words long.
> you are NOT getting that one for free.
> 
> second most brutal encounter in the dungeon.
> 
> easy.





See.. spoilers like that with pivotal plot points are what I wanted to avoid. I'll read those on my own.. 


Chris


----------



## jim pinto

thundershot said:
			
		

> See.. spoilers like that with pivotal plot points are what I wanted to avoid. I'll read those on my own..
> 
> 
> Chris




I have no intention of giving away pivotal plot points.
I promise that unless its an "Encounter", its 85% likely
to be a red herring.

Although in order to get all five chromatic dragons in
here, we did make on giant quin-headed beast.


----------



## thundershot

Ah, but did you get them all in each size catagory? Now THAT is a challenge. 

That, and have fun with templates.

I can't wait for this thing to be released... 

Thanks
Chris


----------



## jim pinto

*week of april 5 (posted on april 6)*

since ghouls are among my favorite creatures in DnD, i wrote this encounter yesterday just for you guys. if it stinks, its because no one edited it yet, but i'm placing it in map C, so it should be a good challenge for a 7th level party. even so, its a great tactic and the variation on the common ghoul should surprise PCs.

in this instance, we wanted to provide the DM with an encounter where a ghoul fought a little more like an animal. hence, the addition of pounce and rake. while its not very common to see us doing this in the dungeon, we did alter a few monsters where necessity dictated that this would be better IF the dragon had antlers, etc.

anyway. enough chatter. i'll let the encounter speak for itself.


C49. Former Barrack
Both doors to this Room are locked and require a successful DC 30 Open Lock check to open.

Eery lights and dancing shadows project upon the walls, distracting you. The Room beyond the door is in disarray, as if ransacked. Shattered wooden bunk bed frames line the southern and eastern walls. Though no mattresses or bed sheets cover them, they could once sleep twelve, and if suitable bedding could be acquired, they could still be used.

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: This Room was once used to house warriors of the Gnashing Fang Tribe. Over the years, the tribe suffered great loses and abandoned the place. Before fleeing, they used this place to trap a feral ghoul (hp 58) they were unable to kill. The beast has been captive for many months and seeks to destroy anyone who enters (including the PCs). 

Tactics: The ghoul is fearless and stronger than most of its kind. It waits above the door and descends on the last person to enter. The PCs need a DC 40 Spot check to notice it as they enter and gain a +5 circumstance bonus to the check only if they are looking straight up as they enter (the monster knows exactly where to hide in the room's shadows).
	During the first round, the ghoul takes full advantage of its abilities, attacking its victim with two claws, one bite, and its special rake attack. The ghoul's claws are razor-sharp from many years of scratching and sharpening upon the dungeon walls, and its critical threat range is increased accordingly.
	Once engaged, the ghoul no longer uses its rake attack, but continues to pounce. When it drops a PC, it turns its attention to the next closest or fastest PC. Once all the PCs are down, it feeds upon one PC until he is dead and then flees deeper into the dungeon. 
	The ghoul fights to the death. Assume it has a Initiative check of 22.

Treasure: A torch imbued with continual flame was left behind, perhaps to torment the nocturnal ghoul. The torch was broken into many pieces, but the continual flame still casts light from a single 3-in. piece of wood. A successful DC 22 Search check reveals a gold earring (worth 25 gp) tucked between one of the bunks and the wall. 
EL: 6
Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, allow the ghoul to sneak attack the first PC for +3d6 damage or permenantly bestow magic fang on its claws, making them +2 claws. In addition, at the end of the first round, have the PCs make DC 18 Will saves or become shaken. To decrease the challenge, have the ghoul be surprised by the PCs.

Feral Ghoul: CR 6; Medium undead; HD 9d12; hp 58; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12; Base Atk +4; Grp +6; Atk +7 melee (1d6+2/19–20 plus paralysis, claw); Full Atk +7 melee (1d6+2/19–20 plus paralysis, 2 claws) and +5 melee (1d6+1 plus paralysis, bite); SA Ghoul fever, paralysis, pounce, rake; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits, +2 turn resistance; AL CE; SV Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +8; Str 15, Dex 15, Con -, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12.
Skills and Feats:  Balance +12, Climb +13, Hide +13, Jump +13, Move Silently +13, Spot +14; Multiattack, Improved Critical (claws), Improved Natural attack (claws), Weapon Focus (claws).
Ghoul Fever (Su): Disease-bite, Fortitude DC 15, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Charisma-based.
An afflicted humanoid who dies of ghoul fever rises as a ghoul at the next midnight. A humanoid who becomes a ghoul in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life. It is not under the control of any other ghouls, but it hungers for the flesh of the living and behaves like a normal ghoul in all respects. A humanoid of 4 Hit Dice or more rises as a ghast, not a ghoul.
Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a ghoul's bite or claw attack must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Elves have immunity to this paralysis. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Pounce (Ex): If a feral ghoul charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +7 melee, 1d8+3 damage.


----------



## Psion

jim pinto said:
			
		

> would it make you cry to know the unicorn in this adventure has both its legs broken when the PCs find it?




Both?  

I thought unicorns had 4 legs.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard

gottahaveitgottahaveitgottahaveit


----------



## DaveMage

Thanks for the preview, jim! 

Anxiously awaiting more!


----------



## Frilf

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Thanks for the preview, jim!
> 
> Anxiously awaiting more!




Sounds like fun!  Sign me up, too.


----------



## Leopold

Where did you get that feral template from?

Also there are going to be spells right? What books are we culling spells from? Is there going to be an index or way to use spells? PrC's? What types? What books?

Is this going to be a self-inclusive book or am I going to have to have other AEG books?

CAn you post an encounter with lizardmen?? I LOVE lizardmen!


----------



## Leopold

and green dragons!


----------



## Macbeth

I have to say, I do not usually run many dungeon crawls (in fact, my current campaign has a "no dungeons" rule in place), but this book has me VERY interested. I would say I'll definately buy it, but I want to know the price before I get too excited.


----------



## DaveMage

Total speculation on my part, but I think we're talking *at least* $59.95 for this one based on other supplements in the same page-range.  

That price presumes black and white pages and (possibly) one pull-out map.  

If they've got more features planned, or a color portion, or anything extra special with it, I could see a price as high as $99.99, though if it goes near or past that it may be a difficult sell for retailers/distributors.

Of course, I wouldn't mind if they cut out the middlemen (distributors, stores) and just sold it from their website for half ("list") price.


----------



## Cergorach

Hmm...
About the ghoul encounter:
It attacks from ambush, it has an initiative of 22, it probably suprises the party. I wonder if the CR of 6 takes this into account, if not why is the EL still 6?

I must say that giving a monster a starting initiative score is... Unique, if it translates to a higher EL i think i might like it...


----------



## Frilf

Leopold said:
			
		

> and green dragons!




And orange moons and yellow clovers? j/k Leopold!


----------



## jim pinto

*the ghoul encounter*

i didn't realize at first that the feral template is from savage species

i just chose a descriptive word that fit this modified ghoul (maybe savage?)

as for books, you'll only need the 3 corebooks to use this product.
while it would be nice to encourage people to buy my other books, 
our intention was to create a universal book, useable by any DM.

if you ever read the topic line, you know that they are all independent
of one another, so a DM can buy the one he wants. this has always been
my design philosophy.

you're right about the EL. maybe 6 1/2 ... haha kidding.
if i go for the full EL 7, he'll get more hit points for sure
and maybe power attack for free.

as for the price, i thought i'd addressed this before, but if i
didn't i apologize. however, since i'm not the marketing
director, i don't set prices for product, so i don't have an answer
for you. but, it does come with 16 full color, 22 by 17 inch maps
and the book is between 700 and 800 pages. closer to 800.

another encounter by friday, gang.

peace


----------



## Tokiwong

You are truly ambitious Jim Pinto 

This may have to go on my list... and I never really liked dungeons but I would love to try one


----------



## Leopold

thanks for the update Jim.

Yes the template was from SS, I deeply pray that something this big goes through the editor heavily and don't want to have to go through a mega errata PDF for this thing.

So far things look good. Is this still going to be one big book or a boxed set or what have you? I know 800 pages is a pretty hefty tome to wield around. Any thoughts on making the maps available as downloadable for the DM to print off? 

Yes I know they are 300mb's but I am sure you can shrink them down quite a bit and make the more usable.

How many authors are working on this? How many editors? Is it just you? Any playtesters needed


----------



## Cergorach

jim pinto said:
			
		

> you're right about the EL. maybe 6 1/2 ... haha kidding.
> if i go for the full EL 7, he'll get more hit points for sure
> and maybe power attack for free.



You could give a 25% experience bonus for a 'difficult' EL 6 encounter.

Adjusting your ideas to fit into the EL/CR scheme of things is a bad idea, but things that don't fit should be labled as such. Chances are that players are going to complain if an encounter is to difficult for it's given EL, chances are that not every DM is as god at gauching the player oposition and possibly making on the fly adjustments.


----------



## catdragon

*Hey! This is *my* dungeon*

Granted, I *know* this isn't true, but the feel of this enormous dungeon is suspiciously like my mega-dungeon that I have been working on for two+ years.   I am still running it for a group of players in my weekly game.

Mine is definitely dungeon-crawl though there is a reason for its existence as well as a group of NPCs/monsters that inhabit the place who have a plot in mind.  thus the PCs do affect what happens in the dungeon.

In any case, I love the previews you have given us Jim.  And I'm not too proud to say that I have "borrowed" them and changed them for inclusion in my own dungeon.

BTW, have any use for some room encounters?


----------



## jim pinto

catdragon said:
			
		

> Granted, I *know* this isn't true, but the feel of this enormous dungeon is suspiciously like my mega-dungeon that I have been working on for two+ years.   I am still running it for a group of players in my weekly game.
> 
> Mine is definitely dungeon-crawl though there is a reason for its existence as well as a group of NPCs/monsters that inhabit the place who have a plot in mind.  thus the PCs do affect what happens in the dungeon.
> 
> In any case, I love the previews you have given us Jim.  And I'm not too proud to say that I have "borrowed" them and changed them for inclusion in my own dungeon.
> 
> BTW, have any use for some room encounters?




trying to get your name in print?

if you want to contact me off list, you may.

btw

your encounter for the day is coming in about 2 hours


----------



## jim pinto

this is a B- encounter in my opinion, so don't think it represents the entire dungeon's quality. but, because the text hints at a lot of things you won't be seeing until the book is on the shelf, i thought i'd tease you with its details.

enjoy


H61. Gray Render’s Lair

Well-hidden behind a copse of thorny bushes, a dark opening gapes between two large granite boulders. Although the thorns jab at unprotected flesh, they are relatively easy to push aside. From the gap issues a faint odor, the scent of stale air and rotting flesh. As you venture deeper into the slightly claustrophobic tunnel, the stench intensifies. The light does not penetrate beyond the first few paces, making the spongy, marsh-like footing even more hazardous. 

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: A gray render (hp 162) has free run of the entire Region, and hunts the area on a frequent basis. Usually, it merely brings down one of the forest animals with which the area is stocked. It is, however, extremely effective at dealing with intruders in a permanent and gruesome fashion. The gray render is utterly devoted to the elven fortress and its defenders, and does not attack the inhabitants of the fortress. The elves have learned to present new arrivals to the render in the presence of one it already knows, to avoid unfortunate incidents.

The lair is ordinarily utterly dark, with no light penetrating into its depths. Unless using alternate light sources, characters without darkvision suffer standard darkness penalties to Spot and Search checks.

The floor of the lair is ankle-deep in bones, many of which still have rotting flesh clinging to them. Humanoid bones are mingled among the animal bones, and all of them bear the print of large teeth marks. 

Tactics: If the characters are accompanied by one of the elves or have been “introduced” to the gray render, it does not attack. Otherwise, thanks to its excellent sense of smell, it is not surprised by adventurers entering its lair. It is also unhampered by the darkness, and attacks the first intruder to enter its lair. If facing multiple foes, it uses Power Attack and Cleave to quickly reduce the PCs' numbers, then latches onto the nearest foe.

Treasure: On a DC 28 Search check, the PCs find a cunningly worked figurine in rowan wood, the shape of a young elven woman. The figure is three inches long, with a hole bored sidewise through the top of the head. The figure is worth 1d6 silver for the workmanship if the PCs can clean the gore off it. However, questioning the elven troops in the Southern Rampart reveals that the figure belonged to Borileos, one of the elven warriors gone missing some time ago. The figure is the image of his betrothed.

EL: 9

Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, increase the gray render’s Hit Dice by four. To decrease the challenge, reduce the gray render’s Hit Dice by one.

Gray Render: CR 9; Large magical beast; HD 13d10+85; hp 162; Init +0; Spd 30 ft. ; AC 19, touch 9, flat-footed 19; Base Atk +13; Grp +23; Atk +18 melee (2d6+6/19-20, bite); Full Atk +18 melee (2d6+6/19-20, bite); +13 melee (1d6+3, 2 claws); Space/Reach 10 ft./10 ft.; SA Improved grab, rend 2d6+9; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; AL N; SV Fort +15, Ref +8, Will +5; Str 23, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 8.
Skills and Feats: Hide +3, Spot +11, Survival +4; Cleave, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Track.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a gray render must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Rend (Ex): A gray render that wins a grapple check after a successful bite attack establishes a hold, latching onto the opponent's body and tearing the flesh. This attack automatically deals 2d6+9 points of damage.
Skills: Gray renders have a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks due to their six keen eyes.


----------



## jim pinto

it's quiet

almost TOO quiet

here's another encounter. this one has not been edited.

J85. Angelic Lightning
Like many of the statues throughout this Region, a pair of haunting angels, wings spread, rest or crouch on smooth stone pedastals. Their eyes fixed with a glassy gaze, these two have cold blue gems for eyes. As you get closer, you can feel the cold air around you, with droplets of condensation lining the ebony walls. Along the floor, the charred remains of an azer lays still and untouched.

Initial Attitude: N/A
Encounter: These two lightning bolt traps are set off when a pressure plate (at the intersection) has more than 50 lbs. on it. The pressure plate triggers multiple lightning bolts coming from the eyes of the statues.

Lightning Bolt Trap: CR 10; magical device; location trigger; automatic reset; spell effect (lightning bolt, 10th-level wizard, 10d6 electricity, DC 14 Reflex save for half damage); Search DC 28; Disable Device DC 28. This trap triggers four times before reseting.

Tactics: The first two blasts are immediate and unavoidable if the trap is unknowingly triggered. The third and fourth lightning bolts trigger 2 rounds later. Allow a DC 20 Listen check; if successful, the PCs hear the crackling of the lightning a few short moments before the statue fires again. Allow the alerted PCs a +4 circumstance bonus to their Reflex saves. 
Treasure: The slain azer lies on top of a small slag of gold, that was once 36 gp, but is now a single pile.
EL: 10
Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, increase the Search and Disable Device DCs of the lightning bolt trap by 5. To decrease the challenge, reduce the DCs by –5.


----------



## thundershot

Wicked! 

When you get around to the next encounter... try something "good"... like a celestial, or even something with a celestial template. Yess...



Chris (REALLY wants more info on when this thing is coming out, and what price it should be, and format...)


----------



## DaveMage

I really like how each encounter has ready-made scaling options.  When I'm running a module, the less work I have to do as a DM, the better.


----------



## thundershot

I hear ya... One of the worst good ideas in a long time was Treasure Quests. GREAT concept. HORRIBLE execution. I swear the book was edited by a few monkeys and a 4 year old...


Chris


----------



## Altamont Ravenard

World's Biggest BUMP!


----------



## WampusCat43

thundershot said:
			
		

> I hear ya... One of the worst good ideas in a long time was Treasure Quests. GREAT concept. HORRIBLE execution. I swear the book was edited by a few monkeys and a 4 year old...
> 
> 
> Chris




A big "Amen" to that, brother.  I've still never been able to get anything of value out of that mess.  And it had so much promise...


----------



## Wraith Form

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Stepping ever so gingerly across the pit trap when you go to the bathroom in the night?



Errrm, well, arguably my bathroom *is* a pit trap..............


----------



## am181d

In my head I keep trying to make sense of the fact that this dungeon will have dinosaurs in it.


----------



## jim pinto

am181d said:
			
		

> In my head I keep trying to make sense of the fact that this dungeon will have dinosaurs in it.




well
at least one.


----------



## der_kluge

So, if my party plays once every two weeks, how many years would it take them to get through this thing?

I just can't help but think that my group would get totally sick of a dungeon crawl after about 4 months, let alone 3 years (or however long it would take).

I'm curious about something - are their cities in this thing?  That is, places to rest, make magic items, or shop, or whatever?  Surely the entire thing isn't hostile is it?  If this has already been discussed, forgive me.  I haven't read through the entire thread.


----------



## johnsemlak

thundershot said:
			
		

> I hear ya... One of the worst good ideas in a long time was Treasure Quests. GREAT concept. HORRIBLE execution. I swear the book was edited by a few monkeys and a 4 year old...
> 
> 
> Chris



 which book exactly was that? (publisher?)


----------



## stevelabny

99.95?

um...

right.


----------



## DaveMage

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> which book exactly was that? (publisher?)




Fast Forward Entertainment.


----------



## micr0c0sm

_List_ of $100 is very respectable considering the scope and quality.  A pdf version for cheap (or as a free bonus with the print version) could sway more people to buy it.  Regardless, when was the last time you had to pay _full_ price for a core book? You at least get 20% off (or more online).

I for one will wait for the reviews and if i even use 70% of the material I think that the money would be well spent.

Actually time-per-dollar is a much better way to calculate value - About how long is this estimated to take, assuming 75% of the encounters are encountered?

My wildly innaccurate guess:

1600 encounters * 75% used * 1 hour an encounter average / 8 hours played a week / 52 weeks a year leaves me with 2 years 11 months about.
And that's with no prep time! (on the upside maybe a partnership with advil could help the DM's).


----------



## BlackMoria

Well, for perspective ..... 

It is expensive as a RPG product in comparison to all the other RPG products out there.  Or is it?   

Things being subjective - on page count alone, you would buy 3 or more RPG products for the rough equal page count and it would cost about the same. The difference is this product take one big bite instead of 3-4 medium bite out of your wallet.

For its page count, it is cheap while compared to college or university level textbooks where a text book in the 300-400 page range sells for about 100 dollars.  

So, it a matter of perspective....  :\


----------



## thundershot

I have several groups in my campaign. This adventure will simply consume the time of one of them. If the players get burned out on dungeon crawling, then we switch to a different group. The worst part about this is likely having to make 1st level characters again. We've got a group that's 5-7, one that's 7-9, another that's 11-13, and a final one that's 12-15. I'm considering hold the lower level ones back a bit more, and let them do this adventure, but I'm afriad the encounters will be too easy at first. We'll see. Maybe they WILL want to make new characters, especially since I've got a lot more books than the last time 1st level characters were made... 


Chris


----------



## Leopold

Gonna piss a bunch of my players off for a long time with this f00ker


----------



## tonym

jim pinto said:
			
		

> ...Allow a DC 20 Listen check; if successful, the PCs hear the crackling of the lightning a few short moments before the statue fires again...




Coool.  I like that a Listen check can help to save your character from a second blast.

Hey, know what might be a nifty feature for the book?  An empty 1 x 3" box appearing in the bottom corner of every page, so the DM can easily pencil-in personalized details about the rooms.  Or the DM could make notes in the box about what the PCs did in the room, like writing "successful disable device ruined this trap" or "Monster's name is Gleevo" or "Sir Plinko dropped his coinpurse by the bed."

Then, to make-up for the box of empty space, you could extend the text margins closer to the edges of the paper.

Tony M


----------



## tonym

Oh.  Here's another idea!  (I know, you didn't ask for ideas..but I can't help myself.  Sorry.)

On every page where there's a monster, put a skull icon in the margin.  An outline of a skull, really.  Then after the PCs kill the monster, the DM gets to color in the skull with his pencil!!!

Oh!  Another idea has popped into my head...

Have a blank page or two in the back where the DM can record the names of characters that have died permanently, and how they died.  A dungeon that big will eat a lot of PCs, I bet.

Tony


----------



## KyleVoltti

100$  ..... figures that out as Canadian  ..... figures in 15% PST and GST :\ ......... has heart attack  ...........
good god I hope that price point is a mistake..... otherwise..... what would you have me do for you Mr Pinto


----------



## Geoffrey

I'm not a 3rd or 3.5 player, but this dungeon really interests me. Fortunately, I understand that using d20 modules with the upcoming Castles & Crusades game is a snap, that the "conversion" can be done on the fly. Looks like I might be able to buy this monster of a dungeon.


----------



## Geoffrey

Here's a question for the good Jim Pinto:

How easily will this dungeon lend itself to solo play for the lone gamer who must be his own DM?


----------



## thundershot

lol! I'd start washing his dishes now... 

Like I said in the other thread (which should be tacked onto this one), chances are, Amazon will have it 30% off, and if you join the EN World "Share the Love" list, you'll get another 10% off. Not too shabby.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77366&page=1&pp=25


Chris


----------



## Whimsical

I have been enjoying reading this thread, but there is something that you (the publishers) should consider. Every NPC may have something that they know that can be revealed by PCs persuading or compelling it to be friendly, probing its mind, fooling it that the PC is its boss, using Tongues or Speak with Dead/Animals/Plants, etc. So, along with indicating the contents of its pockets there should be a line about what it knows about what's really going on, what's in the next room, why it is here, what it is doing there, advice for the PCs, and other such knowledge bits.

So, my advice is regard each NPC's mind, whether living or dead, whether sentient or animal, even whether animal, mineral, or vegetable, as a locked chest that the PCs may open and find some goodies inside if they use the right skills or spells to pick it open. Also remember that any found dead body could be Ressurected and become an ally.

Also, please indicate the magical aura strength & school of every magic item or location in parenthesis next to it. Assume that someone has a permanent Detect Magic/Arcane Sight going.

I hope that you have good support for high level gaming. I would recommend reading Monte Cook's excellent article on high level adventure design.. What I would like to see is some support for high level skill checks. A PC making DC 40-60 Search or Tracking checks could find some very subtle clues that can be interpreted by some high level Knowledge checks. That empty room could tell a long story to the high level ranger using his tracking skills. The high level rogue searching the room can determine what happened in the room several hundred years ago by the pattern of scuffs on a wall. Think Sherlock Holmes/CSI level of clue analysis. Between high skills and high level divinations, the world reveals more and more of itself to the players the higher level they go. They can ambush the ambushers and uncover many secrets before they even apporach them.


----------



## jim pinto

wow

a lot of chatter this week.

that's great.

for those of you who don't know who i am, let me introduce myself

i'm jim pinto, the art director for AEG and the leading authority at the office about all things d20. i'm not a big fan of forums and i don't tend to post online, but i've been enjoying the talk on here and posting samples of the dungeon.

davemage has been very demanding of quality encounters and so now i'm editing everything and piecing it together.

i'm not sure i can answer all the questions i'm seeing here, but i'll do my best.

in the mean time, here's today's low-level encounter and i look forward to everyone's comments and feedback. like many of the encounters i've posted in the last few weeks, this one has not been edited by a copyeditor.

B10. Bugbear Refuge
As the PCs approach the Room, read the following.

A splintered wooden door blocks the entrance to this room. From behind it you can hear a quarrel in a foul tongue. Something yells and a loud crash reverberates through the halls.

	Removing the splintered wooden door without making a noise requires a Move Silently check opposed by bugbear's Listen checks. A DC 12 Strength check is also required to carefully move the door without scrapping it against the stone walls.

	If the PCs remain in the hallway for more than 10 rounds, allow the bugbears a second Listen check.

	If the PCs make a noise in the hall that one of the bugbears hears, the arguing coming from inside the Room stops. The bugbears take defensive positions behind makeshift cover and prepare to ambush the PCs as soon as one of the doors is opened.

	If the PCs enter without being noticed, read the following.

Three large furry goblinoids point at shout at one another, obviously engaged in a heated debate of somekind. The creatures are muscular and brutish, each standing about seven feet tall. Coarse hair covers their bodies and chipped and crooked fangs protrude from their snarled mouths. The largest spits as he screams at the smallest, who apparently isn't backing down.

	All around the room, debris and broken wood make the stone floor nearly impossible to see.

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: Three bugbears (hp 24, 18, 15) have made this Room their refuge, but have been unable to leave for two weeks because of the dire wolves in Room B9. They are stir-crazy now and arguing with each other (in Common) about who cheated at a dice game that obviously isn't being played.
	If surprised, allow the middle bugbear a DC 18 Spot check to notice someone entering. The largest and smallest bugbears are automatically surprised if the PCs enter without making any noise.

Tactics: If in the encounter takes place in the Room, the bugbears swarm the nearest PC, fighting defensively until they have a handle on the situation. If the leader drops the other two either surrender (50% chance) or become enraged (as barbarians, 50% chance).

	If the encounter takes place in the hall two bugbears engage the PCs, forcing them away from the entrance to the room, while the smallest runs around to the other side of the corridor, to wedge the PCs in.

Treasure: Hidden under the debris in this room is a small strongbox (Search check, DC 25 to locate). The lock is simple and crude, requiring a DC 30 Open Lock check to unlock. When the strongbox is opened, a thin wire running along the hinge pushes down, cracking a vial of acid hidden inside the box. The bugbears normally open the box slowly, preventing the glass from shattering. Allow the PC a DC 20 Listen check. If he succeeds, he hears metal scratching against glass and is allowed a DC 20 Reflex save to stop opening the box before rupturing the vial. If the PC makes no intimation that he's opening the box slowly, do not allow any checks.

	Once the vial cracks, an alchemical reaction occurs and the acid inside, reacting with the surrounding air, becomes a fog that blankets the square in front of the strongbox.

Acid Gas Trap: CR 3; mechanical device; touch trigger; repair reset; gas; never miss; onset delay (1 round); poison (acid gas, DC 18 Fortitude save resists, 1 Con/1 Con); Search DC 22; Disable Device DC 17.

	Inside the chest are 46 sp, 24 gp, a dull pearl set into a gaudy necklace (25 gp), three potions of cure light wounds, and a wand of light (12 charges).

	The largest bugbear keeps a three keys on a key ring on his belt. The first key goes to the strongbox in this Room. Tthe second is for the locked door leading to Room BXX. The third is to the inside of the door in Room B9.

EL: 5

Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, add one bugbear. To decrease the challenge, remove one.

Bugbear: CR 2; Medium humanoid (goblinoid); HD 3d8+3; hp 24, 18, 15; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 16; Base Atk +2; Grp +4; Atk +5 melee (1d8+2, morningstar) or +3 ranged (1d6+2, javelin); Full Atk +5 melee (1d8+2, morningstar) or +3 ranged (1d6+2, javelin); SA —; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., scent; AL CE; SV Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1; Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9.
Skills and Feats: Climb +3, Hide +4, Listen +4, Move Silently +6, Spot +4; Alertness, Weapon Focus (morningstar).
Skills: Bugbears have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.


----------



## jim pinto

*gencon?!?*

leopold?
dave mage?

are you guys going to be at gencon?

come see me at the booth if you do...

peace


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> leopold?
> dave mage?
> 
> are you guys going to be at gencon?
> 
> come see me at the booth if you do...
> 
> peace




Alas, I wish I could.  But I have two very young boys (2.5 years old and 7.5 months old) who keep me close to home.    

Of course, they don't realize it yet, but they will be walking the halls of the World's Biggest Dungeon in just a few years...


----------



## Leopold

jim pinto said:
			
		

> leopold?
> dave mage?
> 
> are you guys going to be at gencon?
> 
> come see me at the booth if you do...
> 
> peace





sadly I will not be there this year! Out of all the years I am not able to go it's the year THIS thing comes out! CRAP!

I'm with davemage on this one. Family and a new house are hurting the bills and my gf's 7yr old is soon to partake in this grand adventure in learning how to play d20 

Unless you plan on coming down to a Southern Convention in Florida anytime soon 


EDIT: That room doesn't really provide anything for the cover that the bugbears in the above section state that they would want to take. That would help DM's out monstrously in not having to flip to the PHB for a cover percentage.


----------



## jim pinto

Leopold said:
			
		

> sadly I will not be there this year! Out of all the years I am not able to go it's the year THIS thing comes out! CRAP!
> 
> I'm with davemage on this one. Family and a new house are hurting the bills and my gf's 7yr old is soon to partake in this grand adventure in learning how to play d20
> 
> Unless you plan on coming down to a Southern Convention in Florida anytime soon
> 
> 
> EDIT: That room doesn't really provide anything for the cover that the bugbears in the above section state that they would want to take. That would help DM's out monstrously in not having to flip to the PHB for a cover percentage.




sorry you guys wouldn't have been at gencon
i was going to sign your books with special rules
only for you. alas. they'll just go to waste now.

haha.

i have friends in northern florida, but not southern.
if i made it to florida, you'd have to come to the war grounds
game store in jacksonville.



EDIT:
in 3.5, cover is a flat percentage
in 3.0 it ranges from 0 to infinitty
and we've addressed that in the introduction of the book

lastly, there's an additional paragraph to each encounter
that i've been purposely deleting, because this book has
something NO adventure book has ever had before, but
if i post it now, a company can steal it before it hits the
streets and i'm keeping this thing under wraps until july.



in that paragraph, the cover issue is addressed, just so you know


----------



## Leopold

jim pinto said:
			
		

> sorry you guys wouldn't have been at gencon
> i was going to sign your books with special rules
> only for you. alas. they'll just go to waste now.
> 
> haha.
> 
> i have friends in northern florida, but not southern.
> if i made it to florida, you'd have to come to the war grounds
> game store in jacksonville.





Tell me when and where and i'll be there...especially if I can get my grubby hands on this book early! I plan on using this thing as a stomping grounds for my players in the new campaign I am running for them. They love combat and room clearing, they will love this.




> EDIT:
> in 3.5, cover is a flat percentage
> in 3.0 it ranges from 0 to infinitty
> and we've addressed that in the introduction of the book
> 
> lastly, there's an additional paragraph to each encounter
> that i've been purposely deleting, because this book has
> something NO adventure book has ever had before, but
> if i post it now, a company can steal it before it hits the
> streets and i'm keeping this thing under wraps until july.
> 
> 
> 
> in that paragraph, the cover issue is addressed, just so you know





That's good to know, just making sure all the bases were covered. I know there are going to be some people that won't buy it as it's either too big or lacking full details. I hope this product has everything I think and you are showing it will have.


----------



## DaveMage

jim: My family is in Jax, so if you ever make it down that way, let us know!


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

KyleVoltti said:
			
		

> 100$  ..... figures that out as Canadian  ..... figures in 15% PST and GST :\ ......... has heart attack  ...........
> good god I hope that price point is a mistake..... otherwise..... what would you have me do for you Mr Pinto




Actually, in Ontario, there is no PST on books.  So if it turns out to be in book format, rather than in boxed game format, you could be lucky and only have to pay GST.

But still, $135 is a lot for a gaming supplement.  It had better be one good dungeon.  It had better wash my car and rub my feet too.


----------



## Valdier

jim pinto said:
			
		

> EDIT:
> in 3.5, cover is a flat percentage
> in 3.0 it ranges from 0 to infinitty
> and we've addressed that in the introduction of the book




Hey Jim, when are you AEG guys going to get out of the lock box and visit some of the local stores? 

Cover is a AC bonus, concealment is a percentage and the last section of concealment does allow a variable percentage from 1-50% for total concealment 

From what I saw over at Gama this product looks to be very cool, although a $100 price point is going to be difficult to push.

(As a note, when we saw you at stateline after Gama were you headed to Vegas for the "Friday event"?)


----------



## jim pinto

Valdier said:
			
		

> Hey Jim, when are you AEG guys going to get out of the lock box and visit some of the local stores?




if you read my previous post, you'd see that i'm working 
on a saturday to get this book done. i just finished
editing 50 Rooms for Region I and they rock on toast



			
				Valdier said:
			
		

> Cover is a AC bonus, concealment is a percentage and the last section of concealment does allow a variable percentage from 1-50% for total concealment




correct
i mispoke, but i understand the difference
nonetheless, 3.5 seriously simplified this system 



			
				Valdier said:
			
		

> From what I saw over at Gama this product looks to be very cool, although a $100 price point is going to be difficult to push.
> 
> (As a note, when we saw you at stateline after Gama were you headed to Vegas for the "Friday event"?)




yes. and erik says you're a big jerk for not going.

his words. not mine.

talk to him.



i won $175 on single deck blackjack in 30 minutes.


----------



## megamania

Henry said:
			
		

> The pragmatist in me says I'll never play it - why get it.
> 
> The little kid in me says, "OH MY GOD! IT MUST BE MINE!"
> 
> Not sure which one to listen to at the moment.




The child says get it.  The adult says...a third job?  err...okay.

Based on what little I have seen thus far I will no doubt look it over AFTER buying book one.  Book 2+...remains to be seen.


----------



## thundershot

Wait... book one? book two? Did I miss something?



Chris


----------



## Goobermunch

Hi Jim, I've been following this thread for quite a while, but a question has come to mind.  We've got several maps that are 22x17.  My question is what's the scale on the maps?  How many feet to the inch?

Phrased differently, and more directly, how many square feet does tWBD cover?

--G


----------



## thundershot

*has flashback of the AEG adventure keep modules without scale nor grid*


AHHH! *wakes up*

I would hope they'd be 5' squares...


Chris (Hey, does the revised version of the Adventure keeps have grids and scales to the maps?)


Chris


----------



## Goobermunch

thundershot said:
			
		

> *has flashback of the AEG adventure keep modules without scale nor grid*
> 
> 
> AHHH! *wakes up*
> 
> I would hope they'd be 5' squares...
> 
> 
> Chris (Hey, does the revised version of the Adventure keeps have grids and scales to the maps?)
> 
> 
> Chris




Obviously, that would be best.  My question really went, however, to how many squares per inch.  From that, we can deduce the size of the entire dungeon.

--G


----------



## jim pinto

Goobermunch said:
			
		

> Obviously, that would be best.  My question really went, however, to how many squares per inch.  From that, we can deduce the size of the entire dungeon.
> 
> --G




we did the math on this thing... and i think its a full 2 square miles

but i could be wrong.

i don't have the maps in front of me, so i'll get back to you in a few
when i'm done editing today.

and yes adventure i and adventure ii, which compiled all the adventure
keep modules have all new maps with grids and everything. the books
are edited, cleaned up, and some of the plots are even corrected.

jeff ibach did the leg work on them and then i made them pretty.
sean holland helped on all the stat blocks and they are, in my opinion,
incredible adventures now that all link together somehow.

sorry for the obvious plug, but i'm really proud of those two books
and i'm taking everything i learned about adventure design and 
putting it into these dungeons.

its amazing how different writing for your own gaming group is
compared to writing for the general public. i think to think about
every contingency, so the DM isn't left wondering why the
ghoul is hanging upside down above the bed frame. if i make
a mistake at home i can ret-con it in 20 seconds. if i make a
mistake in print, i'll never live it down, no matter how much
errata i print.

okay

that's enough soapboxing.

back to work


----------



## thundershot

TWO SQUARE MILES!?! HOT DAMN!

Oh, and about Adv I... do the Mathorn (in Jerimond's orb) actually get a TEMPLATE this time? That adventure was a major one for my group early on, and that town is still one the PC's help out (over half of the population was killed off during the Mathorn ordeal). If they were a template, it'd make bringing them back easier (and deadlier).


Thanks
Chris (has every single adv keep module (directly through AEG, too), and doesn't want to have to pay again... but... will.... sapping... away...)


----------



## DaveMage

thundershot said:
			
		

> TWO SQUARE MILES!?! HOT DAMN!
> 
> Oh, and about Adv I... do the Mathorn (in Jerimond's orb) actually get a TEMPLATE this time? That adventure was a major one for my group early on, and that town is still one the PC's help out (over half of the population was killed off during the Mathorn ordeal). If they were a template, it'd make bringing them back easier (and deadlier).




No, they are not templates in Adventure I.


----------



## Leopold

must have more data!


----------



## thundershot

Malfunction. Need input. 



Chris


----------



## Cergorach

2 square miles => 5,179,976.22 square meters
25 square feet (5'x5') => 2.322576 square meters
5,179,976.22/2.322576=2,230,272 5'x5' squares
2,230,272/16(maps)=139,392 squares per map
~314x444 5'x5' squares per map
~less than 2mm per 5'x5' square

Either the maps are bigger than 24"x34", there are a lot of maps in the book that are not on the foldout maps, the maps are two sided, the maps don't feature 5' squares, or the 2 square mile balpark was way off.


----------



## DaveMage

What if the squares are 10' x 10'?

4 mm per square?


----------



## Beard in the Sky

Bump


----------



## jim pinto

*been quiet*

sorry for being out of touch for so long

i promise to have 3 new encounters to post on friday
to make up for my absence


----------



## DaveMage

Looking forward to it...

I do have a question, though.  Are you working on the Accordlands books as well?  If so, how in the world are you going to edit/write 2400 pages by the Fall?


----------



## Goobermunch

/bump


----------



## Cergorach

DaveMage said:
			
		

> What if the squares are 10' x 10'?
> 
> 4 mm per square?



 that could be a possibility, but that way i could produce the world's biggest dungeon without a hitch, with just drawing a dungeon and saying that the squares are 100' x 100'   

Nah, if they use a bigger square scale than 5' x 5' i would feel that they where cheating just to get to use the name biggest dungeon...


----------



## Cergorach

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I do have a question, though.  Are you working on the Accordlands books as well?  If so, how in the world are you going to edit/write 2400 pages by the Fall?



~14 weeks left, => ~100 days
2400/100=24 pages per day
A healthy 8 hours a day of sleep leaves a nice 16 hours a day for writing and editing.
24/16=1.5 pages per hour
Thus around a page per 40 minutes sounds about right ;-)


----------



## jim pinto

Cergorach said:
			
		

> ~14 weeks left, => ~100 days
> 2400/100=24 pages per day
> A healthy 8 hours a day of sleep leaves a nice 16 hours a day for writing and editing.
> 24/16=1.5 pages per hour
> Thus around a page per 40 minutes sounds about right ;-)




oh crap

that's good.

i am not in charge of the accordlands.
i'm helping with mechanics and format where i can, but
that's someone else's game. not mine. besides, writing/editing
the WLD is already killing me, so i don't think i need to die twice.

you guys do know i'm the art director for the company, right?
which is already a 40 hour a week job?

squares are 10 x 10, with the DM having the option of making them 5 x 5 if he likes or 20 x 20. scale is scale. this dungeon is the LARGEST, because it contains the most encounters and covers the most wall space in your room,
not because it takes a fleet of custodians to clean it

btw... we redid the math, yesterday.

at 10 x 10 its 1.5 square miles

and since square miles are exponential, 5 x 5 would be a .5 square miles (still pretty big) and at 20 x 20 its the size of rhode island.


----------



## Cergorach

jim pinto said:
			
		

> oh crap
> 
> that's good.
> 
> i am not in charge of the accordlands.
> i'm helping with mechanics and format where i can, but
> that's someone else's game. not mine. besides, writing/editing
> the WLD is already killing me, so i don't think i need to die twice.
> 
> you guys do know i'm the art director for the company, right?
> which is already a 40 hour a week job?



I do seem to remember an AEG corporate photo that held a whip wielding bald man (with maybe a little to many pounds) in black leathers, i always figured that was the corporate slave driver... *grins evily*


----------



## jim pinto

Cergorach said:
			
		

> I do seem to remember an AEG corporate photo that held a whip wielding bald man (with maybe a little to many pounds) in black leathers, i always figured that was the corporate slave driver... *grins evily*




yeah. that would be my boss.

haha

btw.
excuse my interenet ignorance, but what does *bump mean?


----------



## Dark Mistress

Bump means your bumping the thread. A thread shows up on the list from when it was last posted on. So if you want to keep a thread near the top of list(aka on the first page ect so people see it and more likely to read and post on it) you will post a bump when it falls below those levels.

Bump is used cause your "bumping" the thread up.


----------



## jim pinto

*your patience has been rewarded, grasshopper*

friday night, 11 pm

here are 3 i dug up

i'll be back on saturday to answer questions or sip tea

peace

F99. Lone Manticore 
A member of the manticore pride frequently uses this chamber to rest. Though this creature is content with its status in the pride, it does not always agree with the way its leader runs the group. Because of this, it often feels the need to be alone. 

A low growl can be heard from the darkness of this small room.

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: A lone manticore (hp 61) currently lies in the shadows of this chamber. This creature comes here to be alone and does not tolerate intruders — especially those who are not members of its pride. If battle occurs here, the manticores in Room F100 come to its help 1d2 rounds after combat begins. 

Tactics:  As soon as it sees the PCs, the manticore attacks with its spiked tail before closing to melee. On the defensive, the manticore attacks the largest PCs. However, should the manticore surprise the PCs or gain the upper hand, it hunts the weakest enemies, dwindling their numbers quickly. It is important to remember that manticores are supreme hunters and do not get into situations they cannot win.

Treasure: N/A

EL: 5

Scaling: To increase the challenge, add one manticore. To decrease the challenge, assume the manticore was sleeping and impose a –5 penalty to all Listen and Spot checks to notice the PCs.

G78. Lord Glebshayy’s Chamber

This wide hall is cast in darkness. A door can be seen in the middle of the eastern wall and a large throne is placed in front of it. The massive throne is fashioned with a multitude of bones and skulls, which are glued to one other.

	A vulture-like creature with powerful feathery wings and dark blue skin stand on either side of the throne. Upon the dreadful throne is an enormous creature. The demon’s four arms end in powerful-looking weapons, two large clawed hands and two powerful pincers. Great horns top its canine head and sharp fangs protrude from its long muzzle. The fiend’s eyes are cold, dark, and calculating.

Initial Attitude: Unfriendly

Encounter: This is the private abode of Lord Glebshayy (hp 192), a powerful glabrezu demon. A pair of vroks (hp 122 and 107) are part of his personal guard and constantly protect his chamber. Like the other three lords that make up the demonic host’ triumvirate, Glebshayy encourages intrusion. Though he does not tolerate trespassers and is extremely aggressive towards them, he enjoys a good fight and sees the incursion into his chamber and territory as a chance for good sport.

	If the PCs parley with Glebshayy, the cunning demon is eager to talk. Like any demon, he is exceedingly verbose. Glebshayy knows more than he lets on and even when he's at a loss, he still pretends to have a secret. He spends a great deal of time "talking" just to learn about the PCs. If he senses they are not righteous, or if he believes they could be corrupted, he offers to "purchase" their services. If the PCs negotiate with him, the demon lord is willing to give most of the treasures he has, provided they agree to assassinate Cerlebraim (in Room G5) for him. 

	Though Glebshayy hopes his forces can breach the wall standing between him and his lord and master (see Room G98), he knows that killing the solar angel would take care of his problems. Since his forces are unable to take the angels themselves, he hopes a small group of heroes might infiltrate the angels’ base for him.

	If, on the other hand, the PCs are good aligned, or wear the medallions of the Order of the Children of the Inner Light, Glebshayy attacks them right away. 

Tactics: The two vroks attack as soon as their lord allows. They are vigilant and keep their eyes on the western corridor opening into this hall. If they notice the PCs approach from this direction (roll appropriate Listen and Spot checks), they use their mirror image spell-like ability to make it look as if there were more of them. They charge the PCs, using their deadly spores and stunning screech as often as they can. If the PCs do not fall within four combat rounds, they use their summon tanar’ri ability to call reinforcement.

	While his vrok bodyguards attack the PCs, Glebshayy sits in his throne, using chaos hammer, confusion, and reverse gravity. If the PCs become a threat (taking down a vrok or two), he uses mirror image and his summon tanar’ri ability before charging into the fray himself. If Glebshayy finds himself on the losing side of battle, he teleports to the furtherest location he can see, eventually reaching his most loyal lieutenant (Room G84).

Treasure: Glebshayy keeps the key to unlock Rooms G76 and G77 on a thick 
leather belt strapped around his shoulder.

EL: 14

Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, add two vroks. To decrease the challenge, remove one.

O20. The Trainer

This broad cavern has a number of niches along the wall, holes and crevices in the stone. The remains of a large fire pit and a camp are left near the wall. From within the crevices, eyes gleam and glare at you.

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: This is the home of Siegg (hp 247), an unusual frost giant druid. He has dwelt here for years, attempting to befriend the local winter wolf population. He is still a loyal member of the Red Ice Tribe, and deals with his brethren regularly, but he lives here. Two packs of winter wolves (hp 189) — 10 in all — dwell with him. Siegg himself is hiding, crouched amidst the rocks at the border between rooms Room O19 and Room O20.

Tactics: The winter wolves open the battle by breathing at the PCs, then charging into the fray. They use pack tactics, as described in Room O19. If the party fails to detect Siegg, he attacks from the rear as the PCs engage the wolves. As long as possible, he remains apart from melee and uses spells against the PCs. He is particularly fond of using flame strike and other fire spells (if he can do so without striking any of the wolves), as he knows most adventurers have utilized any magical protections against cold-related spells. He himself has protection from energy (fire) cast on himself, and cast resist energy (fire) on one of his wolves if he has the opportunity. He wears a greater strand of prayer beads, and does not hesitate to use it as needed. Siegg does not flee unless all the wolves are dead and he is reduced to 25% of his total hit points.

Treasure: Frozen in the ice is the body of a bugbear, with a hand of glory around his neck. The body can be found with a DC 20 Search check.

EL: 19

Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter add two druid levels to Siegg or a two winter wolves. To decrease the challenge, remove two druid levels from Siegg and one winter wolf.


----------



## DaveMage

Wow.  That's over 2100 hit points of monsters in that last encounter.

Scary.    

An interesting sample today.  Makes me realize just how huge this dungeon must be since these three rooms seemingly have nothing to do with one another, and yet two of them hint at links to other rooms or even other entire areas (such as the solar's abode).

Good stuff - thanks!


----------



## Goobermunch

Free editing advice, since I know you're wiped out.  The Classic Type I demon is the Vrock.

--G


----------



## jim pinto

Goobermunch said:
			
		

> Free editing advice, since I know you're wiped out.  The Classic Type I demon is the Vrock.
> 
> --G




thanks. i think i typed too fast or wasn't paying attention.

i hope the DMs can figure out what it is if it goes to press like this



anyway. its almost 10pm on tuesday night and owe everyone an encounter
tomorrow at NOON. i want to post something with a puzzle or riddle,
but spoilers of that nature suck. so. i won't.

sorry davemage.

first person to pick his favorite monster gets an encounter of that
type tomorrow. nothing over CR 12.

peace


----------



## jgbrowning

jim pinto said:
			
		

> first person to pick his favorite monster gets an encounter of that type tomorrow. nothing over CR 12.
> 
> peace




Flumph!

ok, just kidding...


Gelatinous Cube!

joe b.


----------



## Dark Psion

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Total speculation on my part, but I think we're talking *at least* $59.95 for this one based on other supplements in the same page-range.
> 
> That price presumes black and white pages and (possibly) one pull-out map.
> 
> If they've got more features planned, or a color portion, or anything extra special with it, I could see a price as high as $99.99, though if it goes near or past that it may be a difficult sell for retailers/distributors.
> 
> Of course, I wouldn't mind if they cut out the middlemen (distributors, stores) and just sold it from their website for half ("list") price.





According to GameReport.com it will be $99.95  :\ 

And people were complaining about the $40 books a couple of months ago.


----------



## DaveMage

Gaming report is also reporting that FFG is coming out with a $50 Midnight Box set.  Not that it's comparable to the World's Biggest Dungeon, but prices for larger products are bound to be higher.

Sticker price doesn't really bother me as long as the value is there. 

The FFG folks have (IMO) done a great job with the Midnight setting, so I'll pay $50 for that set.  Likewise, AEG turns out great products (again, IMO), so I'm willing to bet the value will be there for the WBD as well.

For jim pinto:  Boo!  Hiss!  No preview puzzles!!?!?!  Well, ok.   

Let's see what you've got for that gelatenous cube!


----------



## CRGreathouse

And here I was hoping for an umber hulk encounter...


----------



## DaveMage

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> Flumph!




Turns out the flumph in the WBD has been advanced, and has the fiendish, feral, half-dragon, half-giant, and monster-of-legend, templates applied to it, giving it a CR of 87 and rulership over the entire dungeon.

I'm sure jim won't be giving us THAT encounter - wouldn't want to spoil it.


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Turns out the flumph in the WBD has been advanced, and has the fiendish, feral, half-dragon, half-giant, and monster-of-legend, templates applied to it, giving it a CR of 87 and rulership over the entire dungeon.
> 
> I'm sure jim won't be giving us THAT encounter - wouldn't want to spoil it.




it's like he's in my office reading over my shoulder...

.... instead of working on this thing with me... what a slacker.

since i can't post the cube (without giving away an AWESOME encounter),
here's a ochre jelly

C42. Imprisoned Ochre Jelly
The doors leading into this cell are locked. The key to unlock them can be found in Room C38. Otherwise, a DC 22 Open Lock check is enough to bypass the lock.

This chamber contains a mass of yellowish ooze. The strange entity is oddly shaped and, in the darkness, moves slowly. Its slick surface undulates, reflecting light against the black of the dungeon walls.

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: An ochre jelly (hp 74) is trapped in this cell. The creature has been imprisoned here for decades, and not even the gnolls could say who is responsible for imprisoning it here. Its corrosive jelly eats away at the stonework, turning it black and grey.

Tactics: As soon as anyone opens the door, the ochre jelly strikes the first target that gets in its way. In combat, it grapples and constricts its prey. If a PC is stunned, it moves on to the next, so it can escape without fear of reprisal. If the PCs leave it a way out, it moves into the corridor outside the door. It does not fight, unless it has to.

Treasure: Any treasure that may have existed is slag now.

EL: 5

Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, give the ochre jelly maximum hit points. To decrease the challenge, replace the ochre jelly with a gray ooze.

Ochre Jelly: CR 5; Large ooze; HD 6d10+36; hp 74; Init –5; Spd 10 ft., climb 10 ft.; AC 4, touch 4, flat-footed 4; Base Atk +4; Grp +10; Atk +5 melee (2d4+3 plus 1d4 acid, slam); Full Atk +5 melee (2d4+3 plus 1d4 acid, slam); Space/Reach 10 ft./5 ft.; SA Acid, constrict 2d4+3 plus 1d4 acid, improved grab; SQ Blindsight 60 ft., split, ooze traits; AL N; SV Fort +8, Ref –3, Will –3; Str 15, Dex 1, Con 22, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1.
Skills and Feats: Climb +10.
Acid (Ex): An ochre jelly secretes a digestive acid that dissolves only flesh. Any melee hit or constrict attack deals acid damage.
Constrict (Ex): An ochre jelly deals automatic slam and acid damage with a successful grapple check.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an ochre jelly must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.
Split (Ex): Slashing and piercing weapons and electricity attacks deal no damage to an ochre jelly. Instead the creature splits into two identical jellies, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A jelly with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 it points.
Skills: An ochre jelly has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.


----------



## thundershot

*spins the wheel of monsters*

and the wheel stops on...


TREANT



Chris


----------



## jim pinto

thundershot said:
			
		

> *spins the wheel of monsters*
> 
> and the wheel stops on...
> 
> 
> TREANT
> 
> 
> 
> Chris




there is no way that you keep picking the most important
monsters in the dungeon. that's unreal.

there's only one treant and the encounter is too important
to give away on here. sorry man.

how about something aquatic?

L16. Scrag Lair
The depth of this encounter is 450 ft. to 750 ft. below the surface.

In the bitterly cold waters at the bottom of the lake, several depressions reveal the existence of caves beneath the surface. Although the current here strongly propels you away from the entrance, flashes of movement from within the cave attract your attention. 

Peering within the entrance, you see a half dozen giants with rubbery skin gesturing wildly to each other. Long flowing hair entangled with sea weed and a mass of ropes surrounds them as their argument continues. The room itself is a barren area of marble tiles and stone sarcophagi.

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: This Room serves as the lair for a small tribe of scrags (aquatic trolls). These scrags originally settled upon the uninhabited island of Madowlieloren (Room L55), centuries ago. When the elves invaded, they drove the scrags into the water where the creatures discovered they could breathe water. The creatures settled within the lake and remain to this day. Their current leader, Grokthan (hp 107), and the five scrags (hp 63) present are examining a +2 distance net they stole from Madowlieloren. Grokthan hoped to use the net himself, but cannot fathom how to refold it.

	As the most powerful scrag, Grokthan forces the others to bring him the lion’s share of loot and constantly beats them when they question his orders. The others obey him out of fear and he basks in their terror. The scrags possess few tools or treasures, preferring to live by their strength and brutality instead.

	Even PCs who speak Giant have trouble understanding these beasts who speak a "damaged" dialect of their original tongue. A DC 20 Listen check is required to decipher the language and understand the concepts behind the words spoken, and only if the PC understands Giant.

Tactics: The trolls swarm towards their foes, using the constricted space to their advantage. Grokthan quickly pushes to the front and focuses his attacks on the strongest opponent available. They fight like maddened piranhas, biting clawing and constantly changing the focus of their attack. DMs should keep the PCs on their toes with random tactic changes and unexplainable actions. 

Treasure: Concealed within one of the sarcophagi is a large black pearl (1 in. in diameter, worth 500 gp) and an iron flask  — both of which Grokthan intends as tribute to the Mahg'Gog (Room L18). The +2 distance net lies unfolded upon the floor.

EL: 13

Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, add three scrags that return from a hunting expedition, 1d4 rounds after combat begins. They attack from behind, cutting off the PCs' escape route. To decrease the challenge, remove one scrag.


----------



## DaveMage

I've said it before, but I like how the encounters that are posted refer to other areas, rather than existing as isolated rooms.  I feel it gives a good impression that this product is much more than a bunch of random encounters.

Thanks again, jim!


----------



## eris404

d4 said:
			
		

> this dungeon better _darn well_ have a kitchen sink in it.
> 
> maybe a mimic in kitchen sink form?




Oh my god! I have to use this in a game now.


----------



## eris404

*Plot/Story?*

OK, so I finally crawled through most, if not all, the posts in this thread. Maybe it's my feverish brain (I am mildly sick today), but I haven't seen anything specific about the storyline. Is there a "megaplot" to this dungeon or just several linked stories? Any chance for a brief, non-spoiler synopsis?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Umber Hulk?  Pretty please?


----------



## thundershot

Hm... 

*spins the wheel again*

...and it comes up....

BANKRUPT 

Dammit... *spins it again*

....

UMBER HULK

Hey, what a coincidence! 



Chris


----------



## jim pinto

eris404 said:
			
		

> OK, so I finally crawled through most, if not all, the posts in this thread. Maybe it's my feverish brain (I am mildly sick today), but I haven't seen anything specific about the storyline. Is there a "megaplot" to this dungeon or just several linked stories? Any chance for a brief, non-spoiler synopsis?




I promise that when the book is out of my hands and off the printer, that i will post the first 4 pages of the book to the list, detailing why the dungeon was built, who built it, and who lives here first.

There is a "mega-plot", which you'll be surprised isn't stupid, and a series of minor "humps" that give each Region their own theme. While I suspect 50% of the people who buys this book will TRY to play through the whole thing, i bet only 1% will actually do it. So really, all of that silly plot is for you guys.

Haha.

Anyway. Each Region (Map) is self-sufficient, with its own internal logic and theme (horror, chaos, goblin hordes, undead, fire, aquatic, caverns, demons, labyrinth, law, winter, etc.,). And you can run them as 15 seperate adventure/mini-campaigns for all we care. No really. AEG doesn't care. We just want your money and we're going to take it, no matter....

sorry. sorry. i've clocked over 300 hours on this project.

i'm getting punchy.

I hope that answers your question.

And for the guy who keeps asking about the umber hulk encounter. I can't post an encounter about a monster that isn't in the SRD. (Do you want a carrion crawler instead? How about a beholder? Yuan-ti?) I promise to post an encounter with a kobold next time and you can replace the word kobold with umber hulk for you own campaign if you like.


----------



## DaveMage

Ok, jim - nap time!!!!    

Interesting that umber hulk is not in the SRD.  

Pick another, CRG!


----------



## thundershot

Umber Hulk isn't...? DAMMIT! 

FINE!

*kicks the wheel, causing it to land on...*


RUST MONSTER



Chris


----------



## jim pinto

thundershot said:
			
		

> Umber Hulk isn't...? DAMMIT!
> 
> FINE!
> 
> *kicks the wheel, causing it to land on...*
> 
> 
> RUST MONSTER
> 
> 
> 
> Chris




damn

i gotta get me one of those wheels.

i'll be all weekend and i'll post the encounter with the rust
monster. ha. another room from map C.

man, that region rocks.

peace


----------



## Comstar

Arcoding to Full Frontel Nerdity (where I first found out about this product) you're going to have every monster.

SO, What's the encounter with the DIRE BADGER? The comic indicates no self respecting game company would ever release such a product.....


----------



## DaveMage

*Looks for jim pinto's first May preview*

I know it's around here somewhere...


----------



## jim pinto

*cinco de rusto*

sorry for the wait...

i feel like scott kurtz trying to post PVP during comic book season

btw... aaron williams and i are dear friends and i hate him now for making me post the dire badger.... but in the mean time you get rustoleum

peace

C41. Rust Monster’s Prison Cell

The doors of this cell are made out of heavy oak and several wooden beams nailed into the stone wall block it. Anyone wishing to enter this Room must first remove the wooden planks that block the entrance. Each of the five beams can be pulled with a successful DC 20 Strength check. This action reveals a rusted but functional iron lock mechanism. A DC 22 Open Lock check is required to unlock the door, unless the PCs have acquired its key from Room C38. The PC opening this door must succeed at a DC 20 Dexterity check. Failing this check results in the door falling off its hinges, which are completely eaten by rust.

Inside this large and shadowy chamber is an insect-like creature with four squat legs, long antennae, and a squat body protected by an incongruous hide. The walls of this chamber are made out of stone, and like most of the dungeon seem to have been carved out from the sheer bedrock. These walls, however, have turned into a deep rust-colored shade, as if every ounce of metal within them had rusted. 

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: A Large rust monster (hp 101) is locked in this Room. The creature has been feeding on the tiny residues of iron found within the walls of its prison. It is maddened and hateful, standing ready to charge anyone fool enough to unlock its cell.

While the Room itself is not haunted, remaining in it for more than 24 hours can have damaging effects. Soft, almost imperceptible echoes, bounce from the walls of the Room. As time goes on, these echoes become harder and harder to block out, until the creature inside begins to think the sounds are part of his psyche. Anyone failing a Willpower save (DC 15, +1 per previous save) suffers 1 point of permanent Wisdom damage, that takes twice as long to heal. This save must be made every two hours beyond the 24th.

Tactics: The rust monster is mindless. It has been trapped in the cell too long. It attacks the nearest PC in metal armor and fights ferociously. It continues to attack the PC until his armor is beyond repair, then targets weapons, finally moving on to the next PC. While rust monsters themselves do not normally act like trapped raccoons, this one has suffered too much trauma from being locked up so long.. 

Treasure: Anything of value is now a slag of rust.

EL: 6

Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, add one rust monster. To decrease the challenge, have the rust monster wounded (–30 hit points).
Rust Monster: CR 6; Large aberration; HD 14d8+52; hp 101; Init +7;
Spd 40 ft.; AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 17; Base Atk +10; Grp +17;
Atk +14 melee (rust, antennae touch); Full Atk +14 melee (rust, antennae touch) and +4 melee (1d4+2, bite); SA Rust; SQ Darkvision, scent; AL N; SV Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +5; Str 18, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 3*, Cha 8.
Skills and Feats: Listen +7, Spot +6; Alertness, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Track, Weapon Focus (antannae).
Rust (Ex): A rust monster that makes a successful touch attack with its antennae causes the target metal to corrode, falling to pieces and becoming useless immediately. The touch can destroy up to a 10-foot cube of metal instantly. Magic armor and weapons, and other magic items made of metal, must succeed on a DC 24 Reflex save or be dissolved. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.
A metal weapon that deals damage to a rust monster corrodes immediately. Wooden, stone, and other nonmetallic weapons are unaffected.


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> Anyone failing a Willpower save (DC 15, +1 per previous save) suffers 1 point of permanent Wisdom damage, that takes twice as long to heal. This save must be made every two hours beyond the 24th.




jim: Thanks for the preview!  I love the subtle hints in each of them about more than just the room, such as the reference in this preview to "haunted" rooms.  Great stuff!

Just a couple of editing notes, though (to help you out - not that you asked      )

There is no such thing as a "Willpower" save - it's a Will save (even though Will is probably derived from Willpower, it is not short for Willpower according to the PHB).  Also, "permanent Wisdom damage" is a contradiction in terms.  According to the DMG, ability "damage" is temporary, while ability "drain" is permanent.  If it's Wisdom damage, it should not be "permanent" (and, of course, if something is permanent, it doesn't heal).  Yes, it's semantics, and if the WBD had already gone to press, then no biggie.  I'm just trying to make you look good when the adventure comes out.


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> jim: Thanks for the preview!  I love the subtle hints in each of them about more than just the room, such as the reference in this preview to "haunted" rooms.  Great stuff!
> 
> Just a couple of editing notes, though (to help you out - not that you asked      )
> 
> There is no such thing as a "Willpower" save - it's a Will save (even though Will is probably derived from Willpower, it is not short for Willpower according to the PHB).  Also, "permanent Wisdom damage" is a contradiction in terms.  According to the DMG, ability "damage" is temporary, while ability "drain" is permanent.  If it's Wisdom damage, it should not be "permanent" (and, of course, if something is permanent, it doesn't heal).  Yes, it's semantics, and if the WBD had already gone to press, then no biggie.  I'm just trying to make you look good when the adventure comes out.




thanks, dave

i usually catch this stuff, but i added some cool bits to this room before posting it and i missed that. was 3.0 willpower? how did i get that into my head?

weird


----------



## DaveMage

I just looked at my 3.0 PH and it says basically the same thing as the 3.5 version under "Will Save" (i.e., no mention of the word "Willpower").  

I know that Willpower is a term that some other RPGs have used as base stats so maybe that's why it came to mind.


----------



## Barendd Nobeard

jim pinto said:
			
		

> Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, add one rust monster. To decrease the challenge, have the rust monster wounded (–30 hit points).




Having it wounded seems to cheesy to me.  What wounded it?  What could wound it that much and yet die from its wimpy 1d3 Bite attack?  How did it kill whatever wounded it?  

To decrease the challenge, why not have it _fatigued_ (from the lack of "food") instead?  Just a thought.

Thanks for posting all this info. about the project.  I probably would not have given WBD a second look, but this thread makes it look very interesting.  Thanks!


----------



## DaveMage

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Having it wounded seems to cheesy to me.  What wounded it?  What could wound it that much and yet die from its wimpy 1d3 Bite attack?  How did it kill whatever wounded it?




Maybe it's been wounded by whatever is haunting the area?  

Or, if it's lost its mind as the write-up seems to indicate, maybe the wounds are self-inflicted...

(How's that for creepy?)


----------



## Altamont Ravenard

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Having it wounded seems to cheesy to me.  What wounded it?  What could wound it that much and yet die from its wimpy 1d3 Bite attack?  How did it kill whatever wounded it?
> 
> To decrease the challenge, why not have it _fatigued_ (from the lack of "food") instead?  Just a thought.
> 
> Thanks for posting all this info. about the project.  I probably would not have given WBD a second look, but this thread makes it look very interesting.  Thanks!




Doesn't hunger cause damage (can't remember lethal or not... probably lethal)?

AR


----------



## eris404

jim pinto said:
			
		

> I promise that when the book is out of my hands and off the printer, that i will post the first 4 pages of the book to the list, detailing why the dungeon was built, who built it, and who lives here first.




Wow! What a cool thing to do. Thanks!



			
				jim pinto said:
			
		

> There is a "mega-plot", which you'll be surprised isn't stupid, and a series of minor "humps" that give each Region their own theme. While I suspect 50% of the people who buys this book will TRY to play through the whole thing, i bet only 1% will actually do it. So really, all of that silly plot is for you guys.




Yes, that answers my question quite nicely. This sounds really neat and also a lot of work - thanks for taking the time to share this stuff with us.


----------



## Ghost2020

Did anything from Tome of Horrors or other monster books make it into this big-honkin' dungeon?


----------



## DaveMage

If they are using almost all of the monsters from the SRD, I'm not sure how much room they'd have for others.  However, AEG has plenty of its own original monsters should they wish to include more.

I'm looking forward to this week's preview...


----------



## Raven Crowking

Comstar said:
			
		

> Arcoding to Full Frontel Nerdity (where I first found out about this product) you're going to have every monster.
> 
> SO, What's the encounter with the DIRE BADGER? The comic indicates no self respecting game company would ever release such a product.....




Um....oddly enough, the first 3.0 encounter I wrote was with a dire badger   .  The players still haven't encountered it....but I expect that they'll enjoy the encounter when they do.

Daniel


----------



## Raven Crowking

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Having it wounded seems to cheesy to me.  What wounded it?  What could wound it that much and yet die from its wimpy 1d3 Bite attack?  How did it kill whatever wounded it?




Could it be wounded from slamming itself into the walls/timbers trying to get out?  Would make sense to me....especially if, as the characters enter this area of the dungeon, they keep hearing these loud THUMPS from time to time....


----------



## jim pinto

*I thought perhaps another of my personal encounters...*

dang it

i was going to post a goblin encounter, but quark is acting up.

i'll post it tomorrow. sorry fr the delay.


----------



## DaveMage

*The natives are restless....*


----------



## jim pinto

*bad cop, no donut*

okay

no excuses (i hate excuses)

i owe you encounters and damnit, you're going to get them

so

here you go. four encounters, all tied together by Room B111
(which means you'll have to buy the book to see how it ends)



the paint is still wet on these, so please understand the XX's won't
be there in the final. but, man these were fun to write.\

did i mention that i wrote 32,000 words this week?

did i mention i've written almost 200,000 words on this book?


B112. Darkness Again
The door to this Room is locked, requiring a DC 30 Open Lock check to unlock. Unlike the other Rooms in this area, the glyph on this door, triggers the door to open when read.

This simple room is empty, and dark. Light recedes and disipates, almost swallowed by the darkness. The floor, from what you can see, is strangely free of dust.

Initial Attitude: N/A

Encounter: Whatever once lived here, is gone having escaped when a foolish goblin read the glyph on the door. Most likely a wight, it either escaped into the dungeon or was killed by the ghouls in Room B111.

Tactics: N/A

Treasure: If the PCs spend 30 minutes searching the Room (and have adaquate light), allow a DC 25 Search check to find a loose stone in the floor. A DC 16 Strength check lifts the stone from its perch. The stone is nearly 200 lbs and covers a small area the size of a halfling. Buried under the stone is a suit of +1 ghost touch splinted mail, obviously hidden away so it could never be used against the forces of good. It radiates evil and affects good-aligned PCs who don it as though it were an unholy weapon.

EL: N/A

Scaling: N/A

B113. Trapped Wight

The door to this Room is locked, requiring a DC 30 Open Lock check to unlock. In addition, the door is trapped with a glyph or warding, protecting the contents of the Room from escape. Tampering with the door or lock in any manner triggers it.

Glyph of Warding (Blast): CR 4; spell; spell trigger; no reset; spell effect (glyph of warding [blast], 5th-level cleric, 2d8 cold, DC 14 Reflex save half damage); multiple targets (all targets within 5 ft.); Search DC 28; Disable Device DC 28.

A small tomb-like room rests to the northeast of the large circular room. The contents are spartan and darkness extends to every corner. Before you can think, something has left from the shadow.

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: Two wights (hp 28 each) have been trapped in this Room since its creation. Being undead, they do not understand the passage of time as humans do, but nonetheless maintained a semblance of reality that finally drove them mad from their captivity. They howl with an allip-like babbling.

Tactics: The wights attacks immediately, taking advantage of surprised PCs. They babble incessantly, as they attack each PC in turn

Treasure: If the PCs spend 30 minutes searching the Room (and have adaquate light), allow a DC 25 Search check to find a loose stone in the floor. A DC 16 Strength check lifts the stone from its perch. The stone is nearly 200 lbs and covers a small area the size of a halfling. Buried under the stone is a +1 unholy morningstar, obviously hidden away so it could never be used against the forces of good.

EL: 7

Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, add one wight. To decrease the challenge, remove the allip-like babbling ability from the wights.

[Insanity] Wight: CR 4; Medium undead; HD 4d12 (26 hp); Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 14; Base Atk +2; Grp +3; Atk +3 melee (1d4+1 plus energy drain, slam); Full Atk +3 melee (1d4+1 plus energy drain, slam); SA Babble, create spawn, energy drain; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits; AL LE; SV Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +5; Str 12, Dex 12, Con —, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15.
Skills and Feats: Hide +8, Listen +7, Move Silently +16, Spot +7; Alertness, Blind-Fight.
Babble (Su): An insanity wight constantly mutters and whines to itself, creating a hypnotic effect. All sane creatures within 60 ft. of the insanity wight must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or be affected as though by a hypnotism spell for 2d4 rounds. This is a sonic mind-affecting compulsion effect.
Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same insanity wight’s babble for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid slain by a wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a wight’s slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 14 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the wight gains 5 temporary hit points.
Skills: Wights have a +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.

B114. Hell on Every Earth

The door to this Room is locked, requiring a DC 30 Open Lock check to unlock. In addition, the door is trapped with a glyph or warding, protecting the contents of the Room from escape. Tampering with the door or lock in any manner triggers it.

Glyph of Warding (Blast): CR 6; spell; spell trigger; no reset; spell effect (glyph of warding [blast], 16th-level cleric, 8d8 sonic, DC 14 Reflex save half damage); multiple targets (all targets within 5 ft.); Search DC 28; Disable Device DC 28.

From the darkness you can hear an unhealthy moan, something sinister and decreptid. The darkness cuts your torchlight and the moan grows loader as you peer into the shadows.

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: A ghast (hp XX) of unusual strength has been trapped in this Room since the dungeon's creation. Once shackled, it broke those bonds long ago. Now the manacles and chains hang from a metal ring in the wall. The floor is littered with sepsis and slime, making walking difficult.

	The ghast has no love of the living and attacks immediately.

Tactics: Taking advantage of the darkness, the ghast bull rushes the first PC, in an attempt to pin him. Using the darkness to his advantage he gains a +2 circumstance bonus to the bullrush (in addition to having moved at least 15 ft.). Once on the ground, he attacks ferociously, biting and clawing until the victim is paralyzed. He then moves on to the next victim using the same tactics, paralyzing the PC and moving on to the next.

	In addition to his paralyzing touch, the ghast also drains 1d3 Dexterity with every hit, making victims slower and slower with each attack. The ghast is a fearsome predator and using its tools well to finish off the PCs.

Treasure: If the PCs spend 30 minutes searching the Room (and have adaquate light), they can find a broken stone in the floor. A DC 12 Strength check lifts the pieces of broken stone easily. Nothing is buried here, having been taken by the ghast.

EL: 6

Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, give the ghast +6 natural armor and maximum hit points. To reduce the challenge, remove the ghast's teeth and only allow it to paralyze with its claws.


----------



## DaveMage

Interesting...

I like the completeness of the trap descriptions - including the reset information (which, in this case of course, would not apply to a magic trap).

Insane undead?  Creepy.

I like the ghast with no teeth scaling...    




			
				jim pinto said:
			
		

> okay
> did i mention that i wrote 32,000 words this week?
> 
> did i mention i've written almost 200,000 words on this book?




Wow!  You've been a bit busy, then, eh?  I hope you're enjoying the writing process on this thing even though I'm sure deadlines are rapidly approaching.  

If you don't mind sharing, what *are* the deadlines on this project?  I know you're planning a Gen Con release, and that's only 3 months away (which, I'm sure you don't need to be reminded about)...


----------



## johnsemlak

Can someone remind me of hte release date on this one again?


----------



## Barendd Nobeard

For some reason, I think it's being released at GenCon this summer.


----------



## Sledge

jim pinto said:
			
		

> Treasure: If the PCs spend 30 minutes searching the Room (and have adaquate light), allow a DC 25 Search check to find a loose stone in the floor. A DC 16 Strength check lifts the stone from its perch. The stone is nearly 200 lbs and covers a small area the size of a halfling. Buried under the stone is a suit of +1 ghost touch splinted mail, obviously hidden away so it could never be used against the forces of good. It radiates evil and affects good-aligned PCs who don it as though it were an unholy weapon.
> Treasure: If the PCs spend 30 minutes searching the Room (and have adaquate light), allow a DC 25 Search check to find a loose stone in the floor. A DC 16 Strength check lifts the stone from its perch. The stone is nearly 200 lbs and covers a small area the size of a halfling. Buried under the stone is a +1 unholy morningstar, obviously hidden away so it could never be used against the forces of good.
> Treasure: If the PCs spend 30 minutes searching the Room (and have adaquate light), they can find a broken stone in the floor. A DC 12 Strength check lifts the pieces of broken stone easily. Nothing is buried here, having been taken by the ghast.



Hmmm I thought the whole point of being able to take 20 with a search, etc, etc, was that rooms don't require specific times to search.  Am I wrong here or should it just have a DC and be sure that the location of the broken stone is marked in each room?


----------



## johnsemlak

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> For some reason, I think it's being released at GenCon this summer.



 That's what I thought too.

I regularly search for it at amazon but it still hasn't turned up there, even for pre-order.


----------



## DaveMage

Sledge said:
			
		

> Hmmm I thought the whole point of being able to take 20 with a search, etc, etc, was that rooms don't require specific times to search.  Am I wrong here or should it just have a DC and be sure that the location of the broken stone is marked in each room?




IIRC, it depends on the size of the room.  I'm working from memory here, but I think if you "take 20" it takes 2 minutes (20 rounds) to search either a 5x5 or 10x10 area (don't remember which).


----------



## DaveMage

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> That's what I thought too.
> 
> I regularly search for it at amazon but it still hasn't turned up there, even for pre-order.




Here's the blurb on the alderac site:

http://www.alderac.com/d20/


----------



## thundershot

I wish I had an ISBN number for it. Using that, I got the Mother of all Encounter tables and several other books to show up on Amazon... jim? any ISBN number yet?



Thanks
Chris


----------



## jim pinto

thundershot said:
			
		

> I wish I had an ISBN number for it. Using that, I got the Mother of all Encounter tables and several other books to show up on Amazon... jim? any ISBN number yet?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Chris




for those of you fortunate enough to go to gencon, the
first copies, warm off the printer, will be at the booth
ready for my signature for those who want their copies
devalued

otherwise, not being a sales guy, i can only, assume they'll
be available in stores and at amazon, 1 month later

and for those of you buying from amazon and not supporting
your local retailer.... tsk tsk



as for the 30 minute searches, while i'm aware of the rule,
i also believe that certain things like a complicated stonework
and black on black walls can make searching a room more
difficult. thus, in order to keep PCs busy in a room for a while
AND test their mettle, i opted for 30 minute searches from
time to time.

DMs are free to ignore this of course. just like all my posts on
this list.


----------



## jim pinto

update

12 of the 16 regions are complete

we're in the home stretch
the maps look great and by the end of the month
i can start reviewing the final text again
with fresh eyes

please be patient if my replies take a few days longer
than you're used to, but i'm building the world's
largest dungeon here.


----------



## KB9JMQ

jim pinto said:
			
		

> for those of you fortunate enough to go to gencon, the
> first copies, warm off the printer, will be at the booth
> ready for my signature for those who want their copies
> devalued
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Booth # ????
Click to expand...


----------



## DaveMage

If anyone from North Florida is heading to Gen Con and wants to do a fellow EN Worlder (who will not be able to go) a favor....let me know.


----------



## thundershot

jim,


As I don't HAVE a local gaming store, only a comic store that I've used for the past 15 years, and he'd rather me buy it on amazon because everytime he gets a big expensive book like that, it ends up getting damaged, and he doesn't make much money off of it, since he only orders them for me. So I only order the books 20 bucks or less from him. So Amazon is my friend. Anything on that ISBN number?


Thanks
Chris


----------



## Geoffrey

When exactly is Gen Con?


----------



## DaveMage

http://www.gencon.com/

Big annual gaming convention.


----------



## jim pinto

hey gang

its friday. i promise an undead adventure by the end of the day.

and if anyone wants to help me write an advertisement for this
book, e-mail me off list.

peace


----------



## jim pinto

*wet paint. do not sit on bench.*

as always, i just finished writing this, so if there are typos,
i blame the fingers

N127. Temple Guards’ Barracks

The northern door of this Room is kept open at all times.

Two large skeletal figures with horrible entrails issuing from their bony ribs stand in this empty room. Each of these loathsome creatures has shadowy holes in their skulls, making their eye sockets a dreadful sight to behold. They also have unnaturally long tongues that end in forked pincers hanging from between their grinning teeth. On the wall behind them, a rod, obviously magical, rests across two metal pegs.

Initial Attitude: Hostile

Encounter: Two Large mohrgs (hp 191, 177) currently guard this Room. These dreadful fiends keep a close eye on the corridor leading north and stand ready to attack anything they do not recognize as their mistress or one of her undead servants.

Because of the open door, PCs moving from Rooms N114, N128, or N130 have the potential to be spotted by the mohrgs.

Tactics: These fiends charge the PCs the moment they spot them, preferring to target the strongest opponents. The mohrgs use their paralyzing touch abilities to weaken the PCs and turn all creatures they kill into mindless zombies.

During the first round, the mohrgs charge the largest PC pressing him back into the nearest wall, if possible. While the larger mohrg takes care of him, the other goes after nagging wizards and rogues, using its paralyzing touch to finish off spellcasters before they can do harm.

While they are not spellcasters, they carry special scrolls that are scribed just for them. If necessary, the larger mohrg pulls out a scroll of cloudkill and casts it on the entire Room (or hallway). Since undead have no Constitution score they are immune to the effects of the spell, but the PCs suffer 1d4 Constitution damage each round they are within the confines of the cloud. The cloud is 20 ft. high and has a 20-ft. radius. It remains for 18 minutes and obscure vision like fog cloud.

If the smaller mohrg is reduce to 50 hit points or less, it readies a scroll of horrid wilting and targets all living creatures in a 60-ft. radius with 18d6 points of damage. A DC 22 Fortitude saves for half. This scroll, like the scroll of cloudkill, is written in an unholy tongue. If the PCs wish to decipher either one, they must succeed at a DC 28 Decipher Script check or a DC 33 Spellcraft check (on each scroll). Failure means they cannot read them. Failure by more than 10, causes the reader to misread and 'spend' the energy stored in the scroll, rendering it useless. A natural '1' causes the spell to go off, targeting the nearest PC.

If the PCs successfully decipher the scrolls, they can transcribe them into a spellbook or cast them at will.

Treasure: The southern door leads to a small closet filled with rotted clothing. Among the useless detritus are a set of golden earrings shaped in the form of dolphins (worth 155 gp), an ivory brooch sculpted to resemble the face of a handsome elven youth (worth 135 gp), and a small piece of irregular amber (worth 90 gp).

A DC 40 Search check reveals a loose stone with a dead elf buried and crushed underneath. The bones have been pressed into powder and the body is only identifiable as an elf with a DC 30 Heal check.

EL: 16

Scaling: To increase the challenge of this encounter, double the number of advanced mohrgs present. To decrease the challenge, remove one of them.

Large Mohrg: CR 13; Large undead; HD 28d12; hp 191, 177; Init +9; Spd 30 ft.; AC 30, touch 13, flat-footed 26; Base Atk +14; Grp +26; Atk +22 melee (1d8+11, slam) or +22 melee touch (paralysis, tongue); Full Atk +22 melee (1d8+11, slam) and +22 melee touch (paralysis, tongue); Space/Reach 10 ft./10 ft.; SA Improved grab, paralyzing touch, create spawn; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits; AL CE; SV Fort +9, Ref +15, Will +18; Str 31, Dex 19, Con —, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 10.
	Skills and Feats: Climb +26, Hide +30, Listen +21, Move Silently +30, Spot +25, Swim +19; Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack.
	Skills and Feats: Climb +18, Hide +25, Listen +15, Move Silently +25, Spot +19, Swim +13; Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility.
	Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a mohrg must hit a creature of its size or smaller with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
	Paralyzing Touch (Su): A mohrg lashes out with its tongue in combat. An opponent the tongue touches must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or become paralyzed for 1d4 minutes. The save DC is Charisma-based.
	Create Spawn (Su): Creatures killed by a mohrg rise after 1d4 days as zombies under the morhg's control. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
	Possessions: Scroll of cloudkill, scroll of horrid wilting.


----------



## Sledge

jim pinto said:
			
		

> A DC 40 Search check reveals a loose stone with a dead elf buried and crushed underneath. The bones have been pressed into powder and the body is only identifiable as an elf with a DC 30 Heal check.



DANG!  That is one huge "loose stone"!   
I feel the need to say that while lines like these make the rooms feel very formulaic, as a DM I won't care all that much.  It is much easier to change the loose stone to "A DC 40 Search check reveals several flag stones out of line from the floor.  After prying a stone up it is evident that the cause of the deformation is a corpse which has been crushed almost beyond recognition by the weight of the stones."
For me this book represents a funky place to wreak havoc when the players are looking for hack and slash, plus a massive collection of prestatted encounters.  I'm hoping that when it is released I will have a chance at affording it.


----------



## Goobermunch

> If the PCs successfully decipher the scrolls, they can transcribe them into a spellbook or cast them at will.




Perhaps it might be better if this read:

If the PCs successfully decipher the scrolls, they can use them as normal.

The problem with the quoted language is that it suggests that the PCs could use the spells "at will."

--G


----------



## jim pinto

Goobermunch said:
			
		

> Perhaps it might be better if this read:
> 
> If the PCs successfully decipher the scrolls, they can use them as normal.
> 
> The problem with the quoted language is that it suggests that the PCs could use the spells "at will."
> 
> --G




excellent point

thanks for the head's up

as i said, the paint was wet.
as for the flagstone, that's an easy fix...

other than that, does the encounter work?


----------



## jim pinto

*the dungeon as it stands*

Sunday, May 23rd.

We are reaching the final stages of the dungeon. In about three weeks, this book will go to the printer and then its off to the races.

One of the things everyone should be aware of is that like any other product I've written, the material does not preach to you. It does not tell you HOW to use it, but instead is a giant toolbox, suitable for any type of gaming. The themes and stories contained within are for you to explore, develop further, or ignore completely as you search for treasure.

Because I honestly believe that only 1% of the people who purchase it will run it from beginning to end, the focus of the material was on usefullness and internal logic. The whole thing DOES link together and everything in the dungeon has a reason for being there. AEG believes in this project. This is John Zinser's brainchild and (since I've been caring for it for 10 months) my "actual" child.

We are giving you the best possible product we can and I fully intend to be online after the book releases answering questions and walking people through decisions we made that might not always be the most popular.

Anyway. I hate to sound like I'm soapboxing.

I read a few other forums this weekend and it occurs to me that people may have the wrong impression about the product. It's 1,600 encounters for $100.... that's about 17 cents each [and since some of these encounters took me about 20 minutes to an hour to write, that's a bargain]. What you do with a product of this size is up to you, but we've made it as complete as humanly possible.

Back to editing...


----------



## DaveMage

Thanks to AEG for making this a reality!


----------



## thundershot

Yes! Thank you very much!

Now,.. about that ISBN ... 



Chris


----------



## jim pinto

thundershot said:
			
		

> Yes! Thank you very much!
> 
> Now,.. about that ISBN ...
> 
> 
> 
> Chris




:: jim pinto shakes his fist ::

here's your lousy...

1-59472-029-0



took some digging


----------



## Ulrick

mmm...world's biggest dungeon *drool*


----------



## thundershot

jim pinto said:
			
		

> :: jim pinto shakes his fist ::
> 
> here's your lousy...
> 
> 1-59472-029-0
> 
> 
> 
> took some digging





Yeah yeah... I'm a pain in the ass customer.  But at least I'm going to buy this book!  I can't WAIT... I think the biggest problem I'll have is having to have the players make new 1st level characters again...


Thanks!
Chris


----------



## jim pinto

*you guys get treated to the best viddles*

N202. Empty Chamber

Both doors leading to this strangely shaped room are locked and the keys that opened them were lost long ago. A successful DC 22 Open Lock check is required to unlock each door.

This room is empty and its floor covered with a thick layer of gray dust. The stone from the walls, floor, and ceiling here are eerily black (as in the rest of this section) and a thick dark ooze emanates from the walls. The gooey stuff smells like blood but is pitch black. Four massive columns dominate the room, with runes 

Initial Attitude: N/A

Encounter: Like many Rooms in this section of the dungeon, the walls of this chamber pulse and ooze with black blood (which is harmless to the touch). There is, beyond the ichor and columns, little else to admire. However, a feeling of dread and confusion should overcome the PCs when they enter this Room. Just standing around is unnerving and examining the columns causes the PCs the feel the dance of positive and negative energy flux.

Every 5 minutes the PCs spend in the Room have them make DC 20 Will saves. Failure causes them to suffer 1 point of Wisdom damage and confusion for 1d4 rounds. While this isn't designed to harm the PCs, the DM is free to exploit their mental weaknesses as he sees fit.

Tactics: The columns are adorned with Celestial runes. PCs can spend 1 hour reading the columns — 2 hours if they do not speak Celestial but succeed at a DC 35 Decipher Script check.

The runes, while not trapped, tell the story of the undead in this Section on north face of the columns. Those who were so foul, we imprisoned, alone and removed from the rest of the tomb. As it was known they would try to cause harm to others or escape, they were placed in stasis. They also list who is where and what their crimes are.

Room N205. Two dread wraith brothers were known for slaughtering an entire race, wiping it from existance. The race has never been known to the PCs' world (unless the DM has a plot thread that needs further development), and its physical description sounds unlike anything they've ever seen. Their punishment was to be buried together, without their weapons, with a gem of daylight that has been shining nonstop for 4,000 years. While the gem does not hurt them, its

Room N206. These wraiths were sentenced to eternal rest for betraying the gods. Once angels, their eyes were removed, their tongues turned to iron locks, and their hands sawed away. Their souls were banished to this tomb and overtime they grew into the wraiths they are now. While they escaped during an earthquake that shook the tomb, the two were buried with a single scroll of move earth that they could never read or open with their incorporeal hands. This taunt was the last insult to these heinous and abhorent beasts.

Room N207. Three dread wraiths were buried here. Once men of the god, they forsake their oaths and taught the masses to revile the heavens and embrace death. The cult that grew from their teachings leads to hundreds upon thousands of witch burnings and "cleansing," including the destuction of entire breeds of elves and the forests they lived in. They were banished to this tomb for believing in themselves more than the gods. Their pride was their undoing and in death they were denied speech and will — two traits that no priest can live without.

The runes also details some of the history of the Region. Each column covers 1,000 years of history, detailing the most significant events. The fourth column appears unfinished, but speaks of the earthquakes and of the time when they sealed the tomb and left the undead to fend for themselves. Prior to that, it seems, the celestials actually walked the hallways and patrolled from time to time.

Allow the PCs to ask whatever questions they have about the Region. If the DM believes this information would be detailed on the columns, he may answer their questions as he sees fit.

Treasure: N/A

EL: N/A

Scaling: N/A


----------



## DaveMage

Cool...

N205 was cut off - was this intentional?

At first when I read the part about the DM having other plot threads, I chuckled, thinking that, if I'm buying this product, it will be because I don't want to have to design anything else!  

Then I remembered all those people that want "modular" stuff....

Silly people.


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Cool...
> 
> N205 was cut off - was this intentional?
> 
> At first when I read the part about the DM having other plot threads, I chuckled, thinking that, if I'm buying this product, it will be because I don't want to have to design anything else!
> 
> Then I remembered all those people that want "modular" stuff....
> 
> Silly people.




not sure why it cut off.... 

anyway. as for the DM comments, we have to make the dungeon
generic to fit YOUR game world. that said, this undead tomb has
a lot of potential if the DM does some homework and links it to his
game world.

i'm actually eager to run it, even though i've written it

peace


----------



## thundershot

The only problem I see... is that I can't fathom a party spending an HOUR reading runes without first hand knowing they need to spend an hour to gain any benefit out of it... It's hard to hint that without getting too "meta"...



Chris


----------



## Geoffrey

I like the philosophy of Goodman Games' Dungeon Crawl Classics:

_Remember the good old days, when adventures were underground, NPCs were there to be killed, and the finale of every dungeon was the dragon on the 20th level? Those days are back. Dungeon Crawl Classics don't waste your time with long-winded speeches, weird campaign settings, or NPCs who aren't meant to be killed. Each adventure is 100% good, solid dungeon crawl, with the monsters you know, the traps you fear, and the secret doors you know are there somewhere. _

Can the World's Largest Dungeon be ran well in this manner?


----------



## jim pinto

Geoffrey said:
			
		

> I like the philosophy of Goodman Games' Dungeon Crawl Classics:
> 
> _Remember the good old days, when adventures were underground, NPCs were there to be killed, and the finale of every dungeon was the dragon on the 20th level? Those days are back. Dungeon Crawl Classics don't waste your time with long-winded speeches, weird campaign settings, or NPCs who aren't meant to be killed. Each adventure is 100% good, solid dungeon crawl, with the monsters you know, the traps you fear, and the secret doors you know are there somewhere. _
> 
> Can the World's Largest Dungeon be ran well in this manner?




yes. yes you can.

if you read some of my previous posts, you'll see that the most important
thing about this book for me is that an individual encounter be as good as it can be. now. with 1,600 (slowly approaching 1,700) encounters, there are going to be some lemons, BUT there are also going to be some A++++ encounters that you've never seen before.

we hope.

i've never been much of a dungeon crawler, myself. mostly because i found many of them silly or just plain ill-thought out (gender switching traps aren't heroic). but the old B1, B2, B3 series is probably one of the best things i've ever played, because of the wide-eyes i wore while playing.

as a DM, i always sought more unique traps and monster combinations. you're going to see things that i've done with monsters in here that will make you really fear things like ghouls and wights, that many jadded gamers stopped worrying about a long time ago. the first time you encountered an orc, was scary. i don't care what your DM says. you didn't know what it could do and you didn't know what you were capable of either.

that's what true fear is.

if a ghoul is all of sudden doing strength damage AND paralysis, PCs are going to be saying... what the ??!?! that's not supposed to happen. i'm an elf. how are these -- OW!!? stop it.

#1. dungeon crawl
#2. cool tactics, traps, encounters
#3. cool villains and story
#4. worth $200, but we're only charging you $100



i'm on the last legs of this thing and i'll be sending it to the printierin less
than 2 weeks. that means i won't be posting encounters for a while, so i can get my job done.

i can't wait for people to start playing though, since i've been writing it for 9+ months

peace


----------



## Geoffrey

Jim, thank you for your great response!   

I am really looking forward to this monster of a dungeon. I've been fantasizing about something like this since 1980.

The World's Largest Dungeon, ran old-school style (like the Goodman Games modules) using the Castles & Crusades rules, promises to provide me an incalculable amount of fun!


----------



## Jim Hague

It's always good to see such enthusiastic commentary about something you've worked on.  I can say, along with Jim, that the WLD is going to definitely be something you've never seen before.  And has been said before - it's not just a dungeon crawl.  We've thought out the ecology, politics (both internal and between the regions), economics...the WLD isn't a massive dungeoncrawl (though it can be played that way) than a massive toolkit for a campaign.  

Jim, myself and nearly 20 other writers have been working hard on this project for 9+ months.  I think we can say with no ego at all that it's going to blow folks' socks off.


----------



## DaveMage

And that's why I really wish Gen Con was in Florida.  

I could afford to go if for no other reason than to stop by the AEG booth and pick it up.

*sigh*

I've said it before, but I really want to thank AEG for having the guts to do something like this...

Good luck with sales, folks...


----------



## jim pinto

*update*

edits are 99% done

the book is now in going through the office for people to poke it with a stick and see if anything oozes out. i'm cleaning up trap formats, searching for XXs, making sure NPCs can have all the vorpal weapons i've been handing out, and generally adding the last minute touches that no one is going to notice anyway...

haha

if it went out today, it would still be awesome.

there is no reason we won't hit gencon, short of me breaking my hand again in the next week.

btw.... its clocking in at 840 pages and i might have room for an index,
but who wants one of those?



thanks to everyone on the list for ideas and concerns and the outlet
for talking about it when everyone here was sick of hearing about it.

i'll be taking a much earned rest next week and i should set a date of june 21st as the day i post the first four pages of the book.

peace


----------



## jim pinto

*this book is NOT atkins friendly*

btw

the book finished off at just over 900,000 words

for those of you counting your calories


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> thanks to everyone on the list for ideas and concerns and the outlet
> for talking about it when everyone here was sick of hearing about it.
> 
> i'll be taking a much earned rest next week and i should set a date of june 21st as the day i post the first four pages of the book.
> 
> peace




I'll look forward to the first four pages in two weeks.

In the meantime, enjoy your vacation, and thanks for stopping by now and again to give us a preview!


----------



## Altamont Ravenard

*takes out his 100$, and irons it so its nice and crisp*


----------



## MerakSpielman

jim pinto said:
			
		

> btw
> 
> the book finished off at just over 900,000 words
> 
> for those of you counting your calories



Good God how long did it take to edit that monster? I'm worried errors will slip through with such an intense workload.


----------



## Geoffrey

jim pinto said:
			
		

> i should set a date of june 21st as the day i post the first four pages of the book.




Only 9 days to go.


----------



## DaveMage

5...


----------



## jim pinto

*workload?*



			
				MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Good God how long did it take to edit that monster? I'm worried errors will slip through with such an intense workload.




funny you should mention that, i'm doing last minute checks
and second and third-wave reviews and i'm making it kick ass
as much as possibe. but if a typo of 10 slips into this book as
a result of giving a hezrou shapechanging abilities or because
i wanted to put a trap on the lock to a door, i'm going to live
with it.

typos suck, but bad ideas suck more.

the book leaves in 2 days and you'll all be the 8th
to know when it does.

and so begins day 406 without rest...


----------



## Geoffrey

I would like to congratulate you, Jim, that the end of your gargantuan task is at hand. I'm looking forward to seeing the first four pages of the book posted here!


----------



## Rabelais

*This is going to be..*

The single greatest Dungeon Crawl, that I'll never get to play in    My Dm's epic campaign turns 4 in October... In another year our campaign would qualify for Kindergarden.  Exciting, yes... Limiting, yes...  Somebody tell me how it is


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> and i should set a date of june 21st as the day i post the first four pages of the book.




Ready!


----------



## thundershot

Yesssssssssss.... 

Even now, months before the book is coming out, my players (plus a new one, and a player in training) are preparing their new characters. I made an interesting rule though, to maintain diversity.... Every character must start with a different class. So far, the Warmage is the only one done, but it will help create an interesting balance. I was tempted to make them take different races, but it may end up playing out that way anyway... I can't wait!


Chris


----------



## Geoffrey

Eager anticipation!


----------



## jim pinto

*spoilers. do not read if you don't want the adventure ruined.*

the book is being burned to CD and sent to the printer as we speak

below is the history and philosophy of the dungeon

in the days and weeks to come, i'll dig through what i think
are the important bits of the first 20 pages of the book and
post more. its 6pm PST and i'm a little tired (this has been
10 months coming.... whew).

thanks to everyone on the list and all the writers. i'm going to
go home now and never return. at the very least i won't be 
back online for a few days.

History
Millennia ago, the celestials built a great dungeon. Within it, the celestials erected mammoth walls, locks, doors, and traps. It warded off those who would enter, but also walled in those who would escape: it was a dungeon larger than any ever known. Within it the celestials imprisoned hellish undead, demonic beasts, and fiendish monstrosities.

	It was a perfect construction. Before the first dwarf would ever be born to sculpt stone, angels and celestials carved a work of art that no one would ever see. Perfect in every detail, it would stand inviolate for thousands of years. But none can say why the gods ordered demons and liches to be entombed and not destroyed. And in time, the gods would rue their mercy.

	Centuries passed and the tomb stood unchanged. The champions who protected humanity from the liches and hezrou and pit fiends stood vigilant guard, ready to spend eternity in honor of the gods. But time passed over the celestials. The world forgot its heroes . Even the heavens turned a blind eye to the angels, inevitables, and guardians serving out their destiny entombed in the earth.

	No one is sure how much time passed; history has forgotten the quest of the celestial heroes. One thing is certain: the earth is an unforgiving mistress and her power cannot be held back.

	An earthquake cracked the foundation of the dungeon. The rift spread for miles, nearly ripping the dungeon in two. Into the rift flowed magma, but it did not boil the occupants of the dungeon. The temperature rose beneath the earth, and the cold home of the unliving became capable of sustaining life.

	It was not long before the derro came. They made their homes among the rocks and tombs. Many of the traps set throughout the dungeon had been triggered, and creatures that the celestials had sworn to entomb eternally had escaped. In time, more subterranean creatures would make their homes in the rock. All the while, celestials contained the truest evils in the heart of this prison.

	Then another earthquake pushed jagged earth through the dungeon floor, destroying a large portion of its foundation. Driders and drow dug beneath the rock and rubble to make their homes. The same earthquake tore 
a hole in the ceiling, and flying beasts like the arrowhawk and belker perched on the highest plateaus of their underground sanctuary.

	As the dungeon’s population grew, so did the celestials’ fear that mankind would be destroyed by its inhabitants. Two titans made the long journey to the mountains and stood guard at the entrance and exit to the tombs, in eternal vigil.

	Time passed. Few monsters made the climb down from the surface or pushed up from below. Only the strongest made a home in the debris of the prison. Eventually, more derro came, bringing other diggers with them. When they required more room, the derro dug deeper.

	The burrowing derro caused a massive landslide, bringing thousands of pounds of earth and millions of gallons of water crashing in. Hundreds of derro and duergar died and the survivors moved deeper into the dungeon. Enlisting every manner of enslavable race, the derro crossed a giant chasm and started digging again. 

	Within the last hundred years, the dungeon has seen unprecedented activity. Every manner of creature lives in the dungeon. An elder treant and its elven entourage have made a refuge in the westernmost portion, while the undead have remained entombed at the northernmost point since the dungeon’s creation. The core of the dungeon (Regions F and G) shows the greatest sign of conflict, with angels and demons waging a war that must end poorly. Lastly, the exit has seen a change of power that will stymie heroes who think they’re “almost done.”

	The World’s Largest Dungeon represents years of adventuring. Do not tread lightly, but raise your swords high.

Facts about the Dungeon

The dungeon is in a mountainous region and has been buried for countless years. It can have any number of entrances, but for ease of play, we have provided only one. If the DM desires to add more, they should be well hidden or even guarded by the creatures protecting their portion of the dungeon (kobolds near the front, winter wolves along the cold northeast section, and so on).

	Because the northern reaches of the World’s Largest Dungeon have access to the surface world, it should be in a remote area, lest adventurers know all along it is here. Page 8 lists a number of ways for the PCs to “stumble” upon the Dungeon, but ultimately, what draws the PCs to the Dungeon is for the DM to decide.

	A chasm filled with magma (consisting solely of mephits) pushes through the 
earth beneath the Dungeon. It must have a beginning and end point, but the DM may simply insist that it remains under the earth, pushing up under a lake or sea bed, warming the ocean currents.

	The monsters in the Dungeon do not have children. There are no locations with baby orcs or yuan-ti eggs. If this does not mesh with your vision of a harmonious dungeon, we apologize now. Killing children, whatever their race, faction, or identification, is not heroic. 

	What you are reading is the product of one line developer, almost 20 writers, and over 100 years of imagination and gameplay. We made it fun first and useful second. Logic was a byproduct of our stubbornness, but was always subordinate to the first two laws.

	We hope you enjoy the read.


Layout and Design

The Dungeon was built to jail undead and demons, not to be comfortable. There are no barracks, kitchens, or anything resembling “living” quarters. Humanoids and other carpetbagger creatures have made do with what they’ve found here. Makeshift barracks do not afford the comforts of home. The PCs won’t find a logical pattern here.

	After a few weeks of exploring, the PCs may start coming to their own conclusions about the Dungeon. If not, they can always run into the lantern archon.

Lantern Archon(s)
One of the PCs’ best friends are the helpful lantern archons that may appear throughout the Dungeon. These celestials were assigned to know everything about their own dungeon sections, and some have survived to the present day. Each lantern archon knows why its Region of the Dungeon was created, but is ignorant of conditions on other maps. These archons are a great way to dole out information to the PCs.

	Lantern archons can be found anywhere the DM likes. They know many things they shouldn’t, like PC names, recent plunder, total dead in the area, and so on. They are not there to tell the PCs what lies beyond a door, but rather to point them to the Dungeon’s major plots. Their original purpose was to watchdog the Regions, but since the earthquake, each archon has grown sullen (and perhaps a little lonely), taking on a personality of its own.

	Feel free to give each archon a unique voice. Alternately, ignore them altogether and have the PCs “find” their way into the mess.

The Dungeon Environment: SIGHT

A key thing to keep in mind is that the Dungeon is completely dark. Except where noted, there are no sources of light anywhere inside the Dungeon. This environment does not present a problem for most creatures, which rely on darkvision or blindvision to find their way.

	Of course, while darkvision or blindvision allows the creatures to see, there are distance limits to such vision that come into play in some cases — a creature with darkvision 90 ft. can have a significant advantage over one with darkvision 60 ft. 

	Because of this, unless the party is composed entirely of races that have darkvision (commonly dwarves and half-orcs), they must rely on light sources to find their way. Aside from illumination problems (torches burn out, light spells end), having to rely on light sources presents a huge handicap to moving in Sections where other creatures can see in the dark. Outside, a torch can literally be seen from miles away on a moonless night. Inside a dungeon, low ceilings and tight corridors reduce torch visibility to 100 ft. or so. Nonetheless, any attempts at stealth, including surprise, are ruined by a simple candle as a watchful creature is likely to spot the light source long before it becomes visible. Nothing attracts unwanted attention in darkness like a source of light.

	Regions H, K, L, M, the eastern edge of N, and O all have slightly different lighting conditions. Higher ceilings, holes in the mountain tops, and other conditions make these Regions different from the claustrophobic tunnels of the remaining dungeon. Review these chapters and make sure the PCs understand just how high the ceilings are.

The Dungeon Environment: Sound

Sound doesn’t travel as far as the PCs might expect. While the Dungeon is not soundproof, the walls were made very thick to muffle the screams of the demons inside their cells. Wards were added to soften the annoying, persistent echoes. Years of neglect have caused these wards to warp, creating an unplanned new effect: sound is unpredictable.

	This means a lot to clever DMs. If the PCs are being extra quiet, perhaps a single breath gets funneled down a quarter-mile of corridor, alerting everyone of their presence. Or an epic battle in a Room two doors away goes unheard. Echoes from the farthest reaches of the Dungeon could be heard at the entryway, and the PCs’ footfalls could go unheard by someone right in front or behind them.

	Don’t be afraid to use this to your advantage or to help low-level PCs sneak past larger adversaries. It is important to note the Regions H, K, L, and O do not follow standard rules regarding magic, wards, and — in this case — sound. Feel free to apply these concepts as you see fit (see Encounter Conditions, page 10 and 830).

The Dungeon Environment: Traps
While most of the original magical traps have long since failed or been destroyed when the creatures imprisoned here escaped, the celestials maintained a number of other traps up until their departure to Regions E and G. Although they are usually in areas of strategic importance, such as at an important junction or guarding a supply cache, traps can occasionally be found in unexpected places.

	Many traps were designed only to paralyze the undead and demonic forces that could not be destroyed. Others produce cold and/or fire depending on whether they were designed to kill devils or undead. Acid and sonic traps were effective as well, bringing many creatures to their knees. However, because of the nature of the undead and demonic beasts, someone always had defenses against something. As a result, a variety of traps were made, many of them magically capable of resetting themselves.

	Over the centuries, many creatures have stumbled through these corridors, tripping glyphs, spells, and fire traps. The hardest ones to spot have been tripped, and some never reset. The ones that have a marking were circumnavigated once the first hobgoblin was turned into a rat or doused with flaming oil. The easiest ones to spot have been avoided.

	That said, traps can be anywhere the DM wants to put them. While corridor traps have a tendency to slow down game play, a project of this type requires them to some degree. Be merciful and give PCs a chance to spot them. Doors, columns, and secret panels could be trapped. Anything that a demon might try to move to get out of a dungeon could be trapped. But feel free to add all manner of non-lethal traps whenever the whim strikes.

Reading the Encounters

Each encounter — all 1,612 of them — is written in the same format. Each opens with the number and name of the Room followed by pertinent information on running the encounter.

	If there is specific information about the door or entrance to the Room that DMs should be aware of before the PCs enter, it can be found before the Read Aloud Text. Additionally, if there is a trap or something of note before the door, it is mentioned here. Some encounters happen in hallways, so be alert for them.

	Read Aloud Text. It is recommended that the DM paraphrase or relay this information in his own voice, rather than read it aloud verbatim. This text relays to the players what they see, hear, and sense about the environment.

	Initial Attitude. Attitudes for NPCs and monsters are Hostile, Unfriendly, Indifferent, Friendly, and Helpful. Few in this dungeon are Helpful. The Player’s Handbook™ explains how to use the Diplomacy skill to sway attitudes, should the PCs choose to negotiate rather than fight. Hostile attitudes are hard to change, and monsters that are assigned to guard duty rarely change their minds about attacking.

	See the Player’s Handbook™ or page 828 of this book for more on NPC attitudes.

	Encounter. This is the meat of each Room, and includes the Room’s history, details of the environment, monsters, traps, and so on. If a Room is completely empty, there is still a short description to give the DM something to improvise. If a monster or NPC is present, its hit points are listed. If the encounter refers to creatures from another part of the Dungeon, it lists the Room they are from.

	Encounter Condition. This is a special section. Written in shorthand, these notes point the DM to the chart on page 10 and 830, explaining exactly how to conduct the battle. Not every encounter has a special condition, but feel free to add them to taste.

	Sometimes Encounter Conditions exist for encounters that are not violent. Details are still provided should a fight break out, or should the PCs try to sleep in a haunted chamber.

	Tactics. Sometimes generic, other times specific, the tactics of a given monster are explained here. Sometimes the Tactics section helps a DM understand the contents of the Room, how to open a secret door, or what the best course of action is. Tactics is a catch-all when the Encounter and Treasure sections don’t fit.

	Treasure. Be careful not to read this aloud until the PCs have taken time to search the Room. Because there are over 1,500 Rooms in the Dungeon, no matter how much or how little treasure we assigned, it was going to be the wrong amount. Carefully weigh whether or not the PCs need another +1 longsword; would the campaign be better served with a potion of cure light wounds instead? Don’t be afraid to give out less treasure at the start of a Region, anticipating greater rewards at the end.

	EL. This is the encounter level, here only to help DMs quickly grasp the difficulty of the encounter. If you’re giving out XP, you can use this instead of each individual monster’s CR.

	Scaling. Each encounter with a monster or trap includes tips on how to make the encounter easier or harder. The DM should feel free to ignore this section, or embellish each encounter as he sees fit.

	The DM is always free to increase DCs. If the PCs succeed at every Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Search, Spot, or Swim check, the game can grow stagnant. Increasing the DC is as simple as saying “the stonework is very dense” (a –6 circumstance penalty to all Listen checks), or “the pervading darkness and low ceilings make it hard to see” (Spot checks are more difficult beyond 30 ft. or so).

	This book is a great big toolbox, and you are the craftsman.

Stat Block. An NPC or monster stat block appears in this font and follows each Encounter in which a monster of that type is present. We understand that in doing this, there is a duplication of effort, but the more important issue was being complete and thorough.

	Stat blocks are presented in 3.5 format. Any time the stat block is different from the information printed in the Monster Manual™, the stat block is correct. Even though they might look similar, stat blocks often vary from one another in terms of weapons, hit points, and even special qualities. Read them carefully. An iron golem, for instance, might have a magical attack that it normally wouldn’t have. Many encounters have been designed with these changes in mind. Ignoring them robs the adventure of crucial flavor.

	The final line of a stat block is Possessions, which details items when the Atk and AC of the creature is not thorough enough. It is occasionally omitted for space reasons. If a Possessions line is missing, but Atk lists a longsword, assume that the NPC carries a longsword.

[Sidebar]
Skill Use

The rules for take 10 and take 20 have a positive and negative
effect on Dungeons and DragonsTM. Rather than begin 
a philosophical debate that results in nothing but upset players and anxiety-ridden DMs, let us say this — the DCs in this 
dungeon are for DMs who do NOT allow take 10 and take 
20 actions in their campaigns. That said, DMs who find PCs are able to open every lock, charm every monster, and beat every Search check without rolling a single die have options.

1.	Increase all DCs by +10. Done. If the PCs insist on taking 
2 hours to search a Room, make everything impossible to find.

2.	Increase the time it takes to take 10 or 20 and increase the 
frequency or Random Encounters. PCs that stay overnight opening a lock are in for one or six rude awakenings.

3.	Rooms with specific Encounter Conditions (Distracting, Echoes, Haunted, Negative Energy, etc.,) are no place for intense concentration. PCs insisting on searching in these Rooms are going to suffer penalties to their checks ranging from –1 to –10.

4.	Require a Concentration check to take 10 or 20. No one has infinite patience and continuing to look for the proverbial needle in the haystack is going to tax the characters, no matter what the players think.

5.	Limit the number of take 10 and 20 actions on a map to three and one (respectively) per Region per PC. This is a fair 
compromise and confirms for the players the DM is not a tyrant.

6.	If the PCs DO find EVERY trap, make the ones they don't find VERY deadly.

7.	If the PCs can take 10 or 20, the monsters can start carrying deadlier weapons with better critical hit ranges and multipliers.

8.	Eight. Succeeding at everything is boring. Just say No.

That's enough for now. I've sampled the more important and more enticing bits from the introduction, instead of just taking the first 4 pages. That's all for now.

See you later.


----------



## DaveMage

Cool - thanks, jim!

Of course, now I want to know what it says on all those other pages that are referenced.    

Interesting premise.  I'm looking forward to seeing how the various dragons fit into the whole thing...


----------



## Geoffrey

Sounds promising, Jim. I'm looking forward to reading more.


----------



## Zakter

When might I purchase this?


----------



## thundershot

Hopefully AEG's distributor gets it on Amazon.com's system soon (amazon, being the largest online book store ever) so we can start pre-ordering it... But there are other places, as seen in the WLD link in my sig.


Chris


----------



## jim pinto

the book should be available by end of august, but i'm not the one
who deals with distributors. it will be available AT gencon.

i'm back in the office, if people have questions and concerns, i'll be checking the thread every day now.

peace


----------



## DaveMage

How about posting the credits page?

I'd love to see who all the writers and artists are.  

Also, what web support, if any, may be provided?  For example, something this big will probably need "player map" handouts.  It would be great if they were available.

Finally, are you going to be offering "World's Largest Dungeon" T-shirts or related stuff?  You know, campy things like "I Survived the World's Largest Dungeon" or "All the other d20 modules fit in a small corner of the World's Largest Dungeon," etc...

Marketing, marketing, marketing...


----------



## Altamont Ravenard

DaveMage said:
			
		

> You know, campy things like "I Survived the World's Largest Dungeon" or "All the other d20 modules fit in a small corner of the World's Largest Dungeon," etc...




"All your smaller dungeons are belong to us"? 

AR


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> How about posting the credits page?
> 
> I'd love to see who all the writers and artists are.
> 
> Also, what web support, if any, may be provided?  For example, something this big will probably need "player map" handouts.  It would be great if they were available.
> 
> Finally, are you going to be offering "World's Largest Dungeon" T-shirts or related stuff?  You know, campy things like "I Survived the World's Largest Dungeon" or "All the other d20 modules fit in a small corner of the World's Largest Dungeon," etc...
> 
> Marketing, marketing, marketing...




i could post the logo to cafe shops and you could buy any style t-shirt
you want



credits....

(in no particular order)

Written by
Michael Hammes
Chris Burns
jim pinto
Jeff Stolt
Richard Farrese
Robert J. Schwalb
Lee Hammock
Jeff Dohm
Patrick Kapera
Dana DeVries
Mark Carroll
Alexander Freed
Sean Holland
Ari Marmell
Jeff Ibach  
Kevin Millard
Aaron Rosenberg
F. Wesley Schneider

art by William O'Connor

maps by Cris Dornaus with assistance by Nate Barnes

there might be downloaded handouts, but its unlikely

however, i will be posting tips for making your adventure
better, once it hits the shelves.

i'll post them on www.alderac.com and repost them here


----------



## Necron99

I'm a little late in jumping on this thread, but I just found it  
I must say Jim, it sounds amazing! I've already told my group that they're going to play it. In a dungeon that huge, wouldn't you have to play through it a couple of times just to experience everything it has to offer?


----------



## jim pinto

Necron99 said:
			
		

> I'm a little late in jumping on this thread, but I just found it
> I must say Jim, it sounds amazing! I've already told my group that they're going to play it. In a dungeon that huge, wouldn't you have to play through it a couple of times just to experience everything it has to offer?




yeah

there's about 10 different routes through the dungeon
five of which are truly unique

except for Map A and Map O you could go through it 3 times without
ever seeing the same thing twice

when we conceived the dungeon, we honestly thought only 2% of gamers
who bought it would play the WHOLE thing, but its looking more like 35 to 50% now

i can't wait for the first review from someone who finished it

i'm really proud of this book and all the work everyone put into it


----------



## DaveMage

Not that I'll be there, unfortunately, but are you running a sample of it at Gen Con?  I'd love to hear how it was received by the attendees.


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Not that I'll be there, unfortunately, but are you running a sample of it at Gen Con?  I'd love to hear how it was received by the attendees.




While nothing is in stone, it's very possible we'll have something at the booth. At the very least, the entire map will be up and I'll be there to "walk" people through it and say, "Okay, now in this Room, Timmy has fallen into a well and the PCs must defeat the 16 Hezrou demons to get him out."

Since the map is over 6 feet tall, there's a lot to "point out".

Peace


----------



## Leopold

So when can we start to see this badboy out on the market? When is GC? End of July?


----------



## Necron99

I think GC is at the end of August.


----------



## Beard in the Sky

I have read the entire thread, so forgive me if this question has been asked and I missed it.

I have noticed in many 3.0 and 3.5 modules I have run that the party ends up with far less money and treasure than the DMG suggests. Are you using the treasure tables from the DMG or some semblance thereof?


----------



## Necron99

How's the book coming along? Still set to be released a the end of August?


----------



## jim pinto

Beard in the Sky said:
			
		

> I have read the entire thread, so forgive me if this question has been asked and I missed it.
> 
> I have noticed in many 3.0 and 3.5 modules I have run that the party ends up with far less money and treasure than the DMG suggests. Are you using the treasure tables from the DMG or some semblance thereof?




While I can't speak for other designers, the reason published modules don't match the DMG, is because the DMG's numbers are really high and I for one disagree with the rate of exchange.

That said, an adventure with 1,612 encounters MUST set a differrent standard. DMs of course can alter things as they see fit, but we've trimmed the encounters back, so people aren't throwing away +3 swords 1/4th the way through the dungeon.

In all honesty, we probably could have put more potions and trinkets in the dungeon and I intend to write up something for our website (and this one) as soon as the book is in my hands, to give DMs a helping hand in this. But, my experience with 3.0 and 3.5 puts lots of healing into the hands of clerics.

I'm sure everyone will approach the product differently, because their gaming tastes are much different than mine. However, I believe that our approach and my edits show a dungeon full of rough/challenging encounters that PCs will not be able to waltz through with a few "secret" magic items. So, whether we gave them to you or not, the dungeon will hopefully be a useful tool for DMs and PCs, whether we give out a lot of treasure or not.

Gah. Sometimes I feel like a politician answering questions on here. You never know what answer people are going to have an adverse reaction to, so you just ramble in the hopes of giving a vanilla response that doesn't offend anyone.

Haha.

Your question was simple and my answer should be too.

Are we using the table from the DMG to determine treasure?

No.

But, the reasons are complex and mentioned above. I hope I've answered your question without being a complete ditz about it.

Peace.

btw

The book is at the printer and I should have a copy in my hand in about 2 to 3 weeks.


----------



## Beard in the Sky

Thanks for the quick reply Jim; it speaks volumes about you that you are willing to continue to field all these questions while dealing with the stress of a deadline.


----------



## jim pinto

Beard in the Sky said:
			
		

> Thanks for the quick reply Jim; it speaks volumes about you that you are willing to continue to field all these questions while dealing with the stress of a deadline.




Anyone who knows me, knows I don't like compliments, but I'm trying to learn to accept them. So thank you.

I've always had an open door policy about everything, so I'll be online answering questions once or twice a day, so long as people have them.

At this point, I'm really excited about the book and I think I've said about as much as I can about it.

It's huge. Even if you don't use the whole thing, $100 for even 6 months of gaming is a bargain. Unless of course it stinks.



Inquest magazine, Lotus Noir, Undefeated, and a host of others are all going to have previews of the dungeon (some with maps) that I didn't post on here. So if people look for the August/September/October releases of these mags, there might be something in there.

But, I could be wrong about the specific months and magazines.

Anyway. If anyone has anymore concerns, drop a line.

Otherwise, I'll see you at Gencon, ready to sign your character sheets.

Hahaha.


----------



## jim pinto

*almost there... almost there....*

I have an unbound copy of the book right now.
Its printed on that slick paper from spycraft rpg
and its 840-pages of pure dungeon-crawling excitement.

And its HUGE.

Once it has a hardbound cover this thing is going to weigh
about 6 pounds.

Its heavier than a kitten.

Shipping this thing is going to hurt.

Anyway. I hope to have more news soon.


----------



## DaveMage

So when is World's Largest Dungeon 2 coming out?


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> So when is World's Largest Dungeon 2 coming out?




as soon as you write it


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> as soon as you write it




Heh.

Hmm...let's see.  I have two kids under 3 years old, a full time job, I'm sleep-deprived...that would put its release around the year 2052.


----------



## thundershot

And that's being optimistic. 



Chris


----------



## jim pinto

*big news, captain crunch*

BIG BIG DAY AT AEG OFFICES

July 21, 2004. The first copy of The World's Largest Dungeon arrived at the AEG offices today amid a fanfare similar to the one Shaq received in Miami this week.

"Why not?" said Dave Williams a designer and sports fan at AEG. "The Worlds Largest Dungeon is bigger than Shaq and its free-throw percentage is just as good."

The Mayor of Ontario offered AEG the keys to the city in the hope that one of them would keep The World's Largest Dungeon locked up.

Nate Barnes, long time gamer and graphic designer at AEG. (Seen here holding a copy of The Worlds Largest Dungeon and standing next to the full sized map) said.  "I love it when new products show up at the office.  It gives us an excuse to screw around, and it usually takes the bosses an hour or so to realize we are not getting any work done."

John Zinser added.  "In this case I think I can let Nate slide.  Since we actually have the book and maps in-house now, it would seem that someone was actually working during this last nine months.

When asked about the absence of The World's Largest Dungeon lead designer jim pinto, Zinser denied any wrong doing. "It is completely untrue that working on this project killed jim pinto.  He is alive and well, and doctors tell us that he should recover from the trauma by Gencon.  As for his emulation of Johnny Depp in the Pirates of the Caribbean, that is his normal behavior."

Alderac Entertainment Group (AEG) is a swell game company located in Ontario California (Not Canada). AEG's other products include the award-winning Legend of the Five Rings, Warlord, and newly-released Spycraft product lines. The World's Largest Dungeon is 840 pages long and weighs over 4.5 pounds (including the maps).  Remember to lift with your legs and use caution around small children. For more information on Alderac Entertainment Group, visit the company's website at www.alderac.com.


----------



## Geoffrey

Wow. That's crazy!

I'm looking forward to holding a copy in my hands.


----------



## DaveMage

Hey, wait a minute!!!!

You said there weren't any WLD T-shirts!!!!

I have half a mind to walk over there *right now * and demand a T-shirt, pinto!

(Note: The walk from Florida to California may seem to be a bit much to do in an evening, but Hell hath no fury (or determination) like a gamer geek scorned!)


----------



## Necron99

That map is HUGE!!!   How are you supposed to hide it from the players?


----------



## jim pinto

Necron99 said:
			
		

> That map is HUGE!!!   How are you supposed to hide it from the players?




I don't have to hide it from the players.



So that sounds more like a DM problem.

Hahah.

Besides, when you see the detail on MAP F, you'll realize that you don't have to hide it. Because there's no way they PC will find their way out anyway.

The book is on the road, as we speak, visiting stores and tempting tummies, but the map is on the wall, not 10 ft. from my office. I can't wait for you guys to get copies, either.

So, enjoy.

As for the t-shirt, its a blank red t-shirt, with the logo super-imposed in photoshop. Slick, eh?

<Sticking tongue out at DaveMage>


----------



## Altamont Ravenard

we needs to have it yes we do... *drools at the sight of the map*


----------



## MerakSpielman

Yummy! I want one!


----------



## Arnwyn

Taking a picture of that map (with someone _standing_ beside it) is probably some of the best marketing you can do.

I can't wait for this book!


----------



## Barendd Nobeard

Wow.  A friend of mine will be running this in the fall (and winter, and spring, and summer, and next fall....).  I hope he doesn't have a heart attack when he sees the map.


----------



## MerakSpielman

arnwyn said:
			
		

> Taking a picture of that map (with someone _standing_ beside it) is probably some of the best marketing you can do.



Yeah, but they should have hired a prettier model.


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> As for the t-shirt, its a blank red t-shirt, with the logo super-imposed in photoshop. Slick, eh?
> 
> <Sticking tongue out at DaveMage>




Darn you crafty art-type-people!!!  *shakes fist*

(That is one cool map.)

Seriously, though, do you have any idea on the distribution time-table?  Any idea when this will be in stores?


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Darn you crafty art-type-people!!!  *shakes fist*
> 
> (That is one cool map.)
> 
> Seriously, though, do you have any idea on the distribution time-table?  Any idea when this will be in stores?




yes. but i refuse to tell you.



if i had a $1 for every time you posted that question, btw,
i could buy a copy of the book myself

rumor has it that two mondays after gencon is a good time
to find it in stores. but since there are no sales folk in the
office today, you'll have to wait for an official, "real" answer

peace


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> yes. but i refuse to tell you.
> 
> 
> 
> if i had a $1 for every time you posted that question, btw,
> i could buy a copy of the book myself
> 
> rumor has it that two mondays after gencon is a good time
> to find it in stores. but since there are no sales folk in the
> office today, you'll have to wait for an official, "real" answer
> 
> peace




Hey - it *is* your fault I'm so interested in knowing.  This product you've created is something I've been wanting since, oh, 1980.  The kid in me really wants this.  The adult in me can afford it.


----------



## Leopold

I plan on getting the WLD and now I GOTTA get that T-shirt! I don't care that it's just superimposed deal from cafepress I gotta have it!

Front: Logo
Back: Over 4,813,155 monsters buried here! 

Or something along those lines!


----------



## Geoffrey

DaveMage said:
			
		

> This product you've created is something I've been wanting since, oh, 1980.  The kid in me really wants this.  The adult in me can afford it.




You took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## Hand of Evil

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Hey - it *is* your fault I'm so interested in knowing.  This product you've created is something I've been wanting since, oh, 1980.  The kid in me really wants this.  The adult in me can afford it.




Me too, me too!


----------



## thundershot

That mentality is what got me so many shelves of D&D books and Transformers... all the stuff I couldn't buy as a kid. 



Chris


----------



## jim pinto

i must tell you....

seeing that map on the wall every time i come in the front door
makes ME want to play in this dungeon and i know every room


----------



## Dirigible

Sweet Fancy Moses that's a big, juicy map.

Redundant, I know, but... map so big! Map so shiny!


----------



## Barendd Nobeard

jim pinto said:
			
		

> i must tell you....
> 
> seeing that map on the wall every time i come in the front door
> makes ME want to play in this dungeon and i know every room



 So, play a really smart Diviner who walks around with a Helm of Telepathy on all the time.  You character can read the thoughts of everything before the party enters a room and you'll never have to worry about letting "player" knowledge taint the character.


----------



## jim pinto

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> So, play a really smart Diviner who walks around with a Helm of Telepathy on all the time.  You character can read the thoughts of everything before the party enters a room and you'll never have to worry about letting "player" knowledge taint the character.




Alternately I could just run the thing, but I don't want to read the book and find any typos. That would kill me.

My copy is just 4 feet from my hands, but ... can't... find... will.... to ... open it.... or ... speak.... at ..... normal .... rate.

Now I need to clear a 6 ft. by 8 ft. area of my wall for the maps....

Sorry grandma, but your photo is going in the kindling pile.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt

World's Largest Dungeon?

Man, have you ever see Ranger Wickett's basement? It's friggen huge! Why, just the other day two Rugby teams from London were playing a full game between the futon and the TV.


----------



## DaveMage

And the WLD makes its first appearance on e-bay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44112&item=5910746071&rd=1


----------



## Necron99

Street date of 8/15. Isn't that a bit early?


----------



## thundershot

DAMN YOU AMAZON.COM! We have a list of people who want to preorder via Amazon (always had good service there), but it still hasn't popped up! *shakes fist*




Chris


----------



## jim pinto

thundershot said:
			
		

> DAMN YOU AMAZON.COM! We have a list of people who want to preorder via Amazon (always had good service there), but it still hasn't popped up! *shakes fist*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris




anyone want to buy the second copy that came off press?

has my name inside the front cover

haha


----------



## MerakSpielman

Make sure you do a QA on the final product before you send it to the stores, guys. Last thing you need is some fan pointing out that page 711 is missing and instead a re-print of page 287, or something like that.

With a book that big, the printers are bound (pun? Maybe) to have screwed up somewhere.


----------



## Necron99

I'd buy the second copy.......I hate to see for how much though.


----------



## jim pinto

Necron99 said:
			
		

> I'd buy the second copy.......I hate to see for how much though.




dance for me, necron

dance!!

you'll be able to buy a copy soon enough

news is spreading on this book, btw

people are even talking about it on ccg threads

weird


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> people are even talking about it on ccg threads




Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Is that a good thing or a bad thing?




its a bad thing

because although i appreciate the attention it brings to the book,
i'm being sucked into a flame war about what a horrible art director
i am.

sigh.

i should have known better.

you guys rock. the book rocks.

i love all the good about this industry.
it reminds me that i makde $3 an hour for a reason.

peace


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

jim pinto said:
			
		

> it reminds me that i make $3 an hour for a reason.




Whoa whoa whoa!

You're _making_ money!?

I gotta try that...


----------



## Barendd Nobeard

jim pinto said:
			
		

> its a bad thing
> 
> because although i appreciate the attention it brings to the book,
> i'm being sucked into a flame war about what a horrible art director
> i am.
> 
> sigh.
> 
> i should have known better.
> 
> you guys rock. the book rocks.
> 
> i love all the good about this industry.
> it reminds me that i makde $3 an hour for a reason.
> 
> peace



 Jim, keep up the good work!

I'll save my ranting about your work as an art director for after I buy WLD.


----------



## MerakSpielman

Hey, that's a step up from my wife! She makes $2/hour running a home day care. 

(though she saves us $1400/month on childcare bills by staying home with the kids, so "net" she makes far more)


----------



## jim pinto

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Jim, keep up the good work!
> 
> I'll save my ranting about your work as an art director for after I buy WLD.




haha

there are maybe 60 pictures in the book

its literally all text.
so i don't think william o'connor's drawings of shields and axes
is going to win me any awards

my talent as an AD (if i have any), lies with CCGs.
there are plenty of reasons for this, all boring production
stuff. nontheless, i appreciate the kind words. but you still
have to pay full price for your copy of the WLD.


----------



## bushfire

I am already planning on buying this when it comes out, no way I would pass it up.

One question though, any chance you might make available 8 1/2 x 11 size versions of the maps? Even as a pdf download, even a password protected download, hell I would take a DRM pdf version. The only thing I don't like about the WLD is the 17x22 poster maps. While these look great on a wall, they suck trying to use them during a game.

bushfire


----------



## jim pinto

bushfire said:
			
		

> I am already planning on buying this when it comes out, no way I would pass it up.
> 
> One question though, any chance you might make available 8 1/2 x 11 size versions of the maps? Even as a pdf download, even a password protected download, hell I would take a DRM pdf version. The only thing I don't like about the WLD is the 17x22 poster maps. While these look great on a wall, they suck trying to use them during a game.
> 
> bushfire




probably not

but photocopies are about a nickel
and color copies are 59 cents



the maps are a little unweildy, but they do bend
so you can pinpoint the quadrant you are in

sorry if that's not much help


----------



## MerakSpielman

You can just scan them in and make your own pdf.


How durable is the map? What kind of material is it printed on? I don't want it falling apart and developing holes in the fold-junctions from constant unfolding-refolding. I would see myself folding it so that only 8.5x11 section where the PCs currently are is visible, so I can keep it behind the screen. Is this type of folding likely to ruin the map after a while?


----------



## jim pinto

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> You can just scan them in and make your own pdf.
> 
> 
> How durable is the map? What kind of material is it printed on? I don't want it falling apart and developing holes in the fold-junctions from constant unfolding-refolding. I would see myself folding it so that only 8.5x11 section where the PCs currently are is visible, so I can keep it behind the screen. Is this type of folding likely to ruin the map after a while?




It's a pretty sturdy map.

But, you make a good point about posting the pdf.

I'll look into it. Not sure I want people getting it for free.
The maps are worth quite a bit when you see them.

Anyway, I'll talk to my boss, feed it up the chain.


----------



## bushfire

jim pinto said:
			
		

> It's a pretty sturdy map.
> 
> But, you make a good point about posting the pdf.
> 
> I'll look into it. Not sure I want people getting it for free.
> The maps are worth quite a bit when you see them.
> 
> Anyway, I'll talk to my boss, feed it up the chain.




Thanks for at least looking into it. I have become pretty satisified with Necromancer Games' posting of map booklets for thier modules. I can scan them myself of course, but would prefer the lazy way out of just downloading them. 

bushfire


----------



## jim pinto

*almost there....*

just three more weeks kids


----------



## Leopold

Please put the maps online. Please allow us to look at them and print them out piecemeal. I can't use a friggin 20' map.


----------



## jim pinto

two more weeks.....

we should post a coundown timer


----------



## Arcane Runes Press

That map's a beautiful thing. It does my heart good to see a dungeon big enough to house a nation. 

It would be cool if the corridors were big enough that mounted adventurers could wander about, because I like the thought of dungeon corridor cavalry battles. 


Patrick Y.


----------



## jim pinto

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> That map's a beautiful thing. It does my heart good to see a dungeon big enough to house a nation.
> 
> It would be cool if the corridors were big enough that mounted adventurers could wander about, because I like the thought of dungeon corridor cavalry battles.
> 
> 
> Patrick Y.




that quote is going to haunt me forever, isn't it?

the halls are as big as you want, patrick... heck the goblins ride
yeth hounds


----------



## Arcane Runes Press

jim pinto said:
			
		

> that quote is going to haunt me forever, isn't it?
> 
> the halls are as big as you want, patrick... heck the goblins ride
> yeth hounds




Excellent. That pleases me immensely - though the yeth hound bit does make me want to stat up an Aragorn clone, just so I can have a sight gag of him getting drug across the floor by a dying hound. I dunno, maybe he could, like, fall off a balcony with it or something.   

And I've had that quote up since the day I got back from GenCon 02. It tricks people into thinking I'm humble, and that I can laugh about myself...


----------



## Hatchling Dragon

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> It would be cool if the corridors were big enough that mounted adventurers could wander about, because I like the thought of dungeon corridor cavalry battles.




Just suggest to the party that they could do a 'themed group', all Halflings.  Dog-mounted Halfling Paladins vs Yeth Hound-riding Goblins, just think of it!  CHARGE!  

Also, I'm so with those that have mentioned "Little Kid desires, Big Kid wallet" syndrome.  I'll no doubt end up picking up a copy for myself, although it's more likely I'll hand it to a DM of mine and have _him_ run it, at least I'll ask once he's recovered and started therapy or something 

Hatchling Dragon


----------



## ashadow

jim- are you going to be gencon all four days?  i just learned that I will be on a business trip in Indiana during this time and I thought I'd come down to pick up a copy of this...  maybe an autographed copy   
  also- what is this book going to cost?


----------



## Hand of Evil

ashadow said:
			
		

> also- what is this book going to cost?



$100.00


----------



## jim pinto

ashadow said:
			
		

> jim- are you going to be gencon all four days?  i just learned that I will be on a business trip in Indiana during this time and I thought I'd come down to pick up a copy of this...  maybe an autographed copy
> also- what is this book going to cost?




i will be at the booth every day of the show from 1pm to 4pm

i might be there even more, but those are my DEFINATE hours

the book is $100 and autographs are $25



anyone that's ever had a book signed by me,
knows that i give out the best signatures in gaming
that you have to see to understand.... but i promise
it'll be worth every penny.

note: the $25 is a joke (i know someone is going to
misread that) and they are, in fact, free.

btw...
13 days until gencon kids.


----------



## Necron99

I think you might of answered this, but how soon after Gencon will the book be out?


----------



## johncolossus

bump the above question.......
also will it be in uk around similar time?
cheers


----------



## pogre

Leopold said:
			
		

> Please put the maps online. Please allow us to look at them and print them out piecemeal. I can't use a friggin 20' map.




Until I can download the maps I won't buy this. Poster maps are not worth the hassle for me and Necromancer Games does provide this service for their modules. It is a genuine issue for me as a consumer.


----------



## Demon Gnome

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Leopold
> Please put the maps online. Please allow us to look at them and print them out piecemeal. I can't use a friggin 20' map.
> 
> 
> Until I can download the maps I won't buy this. Poster maps are not worth the hassle for me and Necromancer Games does provide this service for their modules. It is a genuine issue for me as a consumer.




Agreed. Poster maps, while great to look at, are just to unweildy to use during a game, and if used eventually fall apart due to folding and refolding of each section.


----------



## Ghost2020

I am looking forward to this book...big time...but I have some concerns.

How about the binding? Will it hold? I looked at the 480+ pg Talislanta book yesterday...man, that's huge! WLD will be almost double that! Not sure how that's going to work.
A lot of people have books that fall apart minutes after opening, will this be the case?

Also the gaming store guys were saying that this book is not going to go over very well for the game stores, but it'll do better for online sellers that give a discount. 
One person made a good point, why wasn't this book released in 3-4 parts? Each about $30-$40, no doubt the volume of sales would be higher.

Regardless, I'm saving up now...and looking forward to it.


----------



## jim pinto

Ghost2020 said:
			
		

> I am looking forward to this book...big time...but I have some concerns.
> 
> How about the binding? Will it hold? I looked at the 480+ pg Talislanta book yesterday...man, that's huge! WLD will be almost double that! Not sure how that's going to work.
> A lot of people have books that fall apart minutes after opening, will this be the case?
> 
> Also the gaming store guys were saying that this book is not going to go over very well for the game stores, but it'll do better for online sellers that give a discount.
> One person made a good point, why wasn't this book released in 3-4 parts? Each about $30-$40, no doubt the volume of sales would be higher.
> 
> Regardless, I'm saving up now...and looking forward to it.




the binding is really sturdy on this thing AND it lays flat
for ease of use. my copy is holding up just fine. 

every store we've contacted can't wait and while initial orders
might be prohibitive for owners, turnover is expected. everyone
at GAMA was blown away with the map and as someone said online,
that's the best marketing there is.

i'm not sure how to address speculation about decisions that are too late
to make. we set out with a single mission statement. and that mission statement is the title of the book. we more than exceeded our expectations with this product, by making something people EARNESTLY want to play from beginning to end....

so. in short, i'm not sure how to address your comment.

but, i'll say this. 3 or 4 seperate books, wouldn't have been the world's largest dungeon, would they?



****

to address the map issue, we're talking it over now as to how to handle giving away basically 10% of the product online by giving away the maps. there may or may not be a solution to this, but i assure you that i'm aware of your concerns and i've made management aware. beyond that, its really not that expensive to photocopy them (each quadrant of a map is 8.5 by 11), and probably easier on your personal printer as well.

i know i'm hand-drawing mine so i can draw notes on them.


----------



## DaveMage

How about just a b/w version of the maps online?  That way, the pretty (color) maps are just for the buyers of the product, but DMs could then download the b/w ones and print out the necessary pages on their own printers.

BTW, jim, how much would it take to get you to come to my house and run the WLD for my D&D group?


----------



## Ghost2020

Good to hear that the book can lay flat.
The binding was really my only issue.

I for one am happy to see this product. I so much wanted to like Ruins of Undermountain, but those bastiches didn't finish the product. Great maps...doesn't do me much good to fill in everything, I simply don't have the time. Looks like WLD will solve this problem. : )

Well, even if you broke it up into three or four books it'd still be the WLD, with each book alone, it'd still be a damned huge dungeon.

Man, will that look intimidating to see that bad boy on the table or what?!


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> How about just a b/w version of the maps online?  That way, the pretty (color) maps are just for the buyers of the product, but DMs could then download the b/w ones and print out the necessary pages on their own printers.




we're not ruling it out, but presently, we're focusing on selling it
and posting pdfs later on.



			
				DaveMage said:
			
		

> BTW, jim, how much would it take to get you to come to my house and run the WLD for my D&D group?




room and board for the next three years


----------



## jim pinto

Ghost2020 said:
			
		

> Good to hear that the book can lay flat.
> The binding was really my only issue.
> 
> I for one am happy to see this product. I so much wanted to like Ruins of Undermountain, but those bastiches didn't finish the product. Great maps...doesn't do me much good to fill in everything, I simply don't have the time. Looks like WLD will solve this problem. : )
> 
> Well, even if you broke it up into three or four books it'd still be the WLD, with each book alone, it'd still be a damned huge dungeon.
> 
> Man, will that look intimidating to see that bad boy on the table or what?!




it weighs 4.5 pounds... it will crush your table


----------



## Demon Gnome

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by DaveMage
> BTW, jim, how much would it take to get you to come to my house and run the WLD for my D&D group?
> 
> 
> room and board for the next three years





Done.  Just gimme a week or so to get the shackles chained and bolted to the wall in the basement.


----------



## jim pinto

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> Done.  Just gimme a week or so to get the shackles chained and bolted to the wall in the basement.




wow.
that got weird, fast.


----------



## Dehmner the Scarred

I'm in the middle of running a fairly large homebrew Dungeon and probably won't run another one for awhile, but i definitely would like to see the finished product. 

one problem with dungeons of this magnitude is keeping the plot or objective in focus. me, i like lots of crunch in my dungeons as well as lots of intrigue. i hope they pull this off....


----------



## AEG-Todd

If you guys haven't seen yet, there have been some updates on the official site: http://www.worldslargestdungeon.com

Yeah, they've got me updating it, as if handling a CCG wasn't enough... it's not like I'm just an art director or something...



Todd Rowland
Brand Manager, Warlord CCG


----------



## Chaos Drake

AEG-Todd said:
			
		

> If you guys haven't seen yet, there have been some updates on the official site: http://www.worldslargestdungeon.com
> 
> Yeah, they've got me updating it, as if handling a CCG wasn't enough... it's not like I'm just an art director or something...
> 
> 
> 
> Todd Rowland
> Brand Manager, Warlord CCG




They should have a marathon session of this game. How many hours would that take? Would it get into the Guiness Book of World Records?


----------



## Necron99

Is there any word when WLD will hit the streets after Gencon?


----------



## jim pinto

Chaos Drake said:
			
		

> They should have a marathon session of this game. How many hours would that take? Would it get into the Guiness Book of World Records?




the world record was set 3 years ago at origins, at 108 hours or something

if we ran from beginning to end, nonsstop, WLD could take 600 to 1000, easy


----------



## jim pinto

Necron99 said:
			
		

> Is there any word when WLD will hit the streets after Gencon?




rumor has it, the monday after gencon


----------



## LoD2004

jim pinto said:
			
		

> the world record was set 3 years ago at origins, at 108 hours or something
> 
> if we ran from beginning to end, nonsstop, WLD could take 600 to 1000, easy




600 - 1000 hours of gaming???
So if i am going to DM this WLD, and we play like 4 hours each session every week, it's going to take us 150 - 250 weeks to get this dungeon completed....

WOW


----------



## thundershot

I would expect that most people will NOT complete it. I'm already prepping a group to go through it once it comes out. They can use any race they can find (heck, the Star Wars Ultimate Alien Anthology makes a great resource for weird races) and any class from the PHB, CW, or CD. If all goes well, I should have 5 maybe 6 players for it. 

The depressing part is actually having to READ it before they play... (not because I don't want to, but because of how LONG it will take)


Chris


----------



## AEGMikeL

*Official First Adventure Party into the WLD!!*

Greetings!

I'm Mike Leader, AEG's Retail Support guy, as well as the Handler for the DragonLords and numerous other small titles here at the office.  

I've been recently tasked with running the World's Largest Dungeon here at the AEG offices for our interested gaming personnel.  We're going to keep a running tab going on the WLD website (http://www.worldslargestdungeon.com) so you can read about our intrepid players, and see pictures of every tuesday night's game.

I'll also be posting the text of the updates here each week too....so here we go....

---------

Dungeon Mail Weekly
Vol 1, Issue 1

This week saw the following 1st level characters enter the World's Largest Dungeon: 

jim pinto - Vrobag (1st level CN half-orc sorcerer) -  
{i think y'all know pinto}
Mike Cochran - Ulfgar (1st level LE dwarven cleric of Loki) 
{mike works hard keeping retail stores and game clubs happy, so you know he needs to beat monsters up often.}
Kevin Millard - R'ragnar (1st level CE human barbarian) 
{all instances of his background have been removed for your safety}
Pat Kapera - Zachary Bock (1st Level NG human Scout) 
{I don't know who this guy is, I think he wandered in off the street.  )
Nate Barnes - Bruin (1st level CN dwarven fighter) 
{Nate is the fearless crazyman from our Graphics Department.  This marks his first step into D&D 3.5...and he's looking forward to killing many things. Current kills: Zero}

The first week of play in the World's Largest Dungeon found our intrepid 1st level adventurers seemingly in over their heads. After becoming trapped in the WLD, our heroes tangled with several traps (including a burning hands trap that continually beat on them and a scythe trap that almost took off Zachary's legs), and a couple of Orcs who didn't stand a chance. They scouted over 15 rooms, and ended the night in the middle of a surprise round instigated by some kobolds who were pelting Ulfgar with sling stones. When asked why they were attacking the PC's, Slesh'gak the kobold replied, "Well, they never shut up...always shouting at each other down corridors and falling into traps. We haven't got a wink of sleep since they arrived!"

Quote of the Week:
"Don't worry about the food, we can go back to the mules outside..."
"You mean the ones that are locked outside?"
"Stupid mules..."
-R'ragnar & Vrobag
-------------------------

Many other office personnel will be finding their way into the game each week, so look for the lineup to grow and shrink with new and unusual characters.  We're currently using all of the updated AEG books...the most used are Mercenaries and Magic.

So far, the kill list stands at:  4 confirmed monster kills, and 0 PC deaths (we were close on Zachary and one of the traps)

If you have any questions, you're welcome to contact me on the board here, or via email.   I'll be back next week for an update!!


----------



## DaveMage

Welcome to the boards, Mike!

And thanks for the updates.  I'll be interested to see if jim pinto remembers all of the traps he placed in there...


----------



## LoD2004

Uhm, maybe a stupid question, but is WLD allready available in the shops?
I don't know when GenCon is....


----------



## Hand of Evil

LoD2004 said:
			
		

> Uhm, maybe a stupid question, but is WLD allready available in the shops?
> I don't know when GenCon is....



GENCON is August 19, 20, 21, and 22, WLD should be hitting stores the week of the 23 or so.


----------



## thundershot

*once again shakes fist at amazon.com not putting it up yet* 


Chris


----------



## AEGMikeL

Ladies and Gentlemen...

I have the official release date for the World's Largest Dungeon.

For those attending Gencon Indy, it will be available for sale there from AEG directly each of the days of the convention, while supplies last.

After that the book will officially release on August 30. 

And there you have it.


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Welcome to the boards, Mike!
> 
> And thanks for the updates.  I'll be interested to see if jim pinto remembers all of the traps he placed in there...




i remembered the burning hands trap too late
forgot about the acid arrow trap
and couldn't remember how to disable the scythe trap

(i'm the sorcerer, why would i?)

i did remember about the orc
conveniently left the mules outside
and grabbed a bunch of rope and nails, because i know we're going to need them

as an aside, my character is the exact opposite of a min/maxed character
he's more of an obnoxious charlatan than an adventurer and none of his
spells are offensive.

1/2-orc sorcerers with 16 strength, 8 wisdom, and 10 intelligence do not 
carve through the opposition the way i'd like..... 

but he's pulled off two good pranks so far, which makes the dwarf cleric of loki very happy


----------



## HeathcliffeSlocumb

Dragonblade is dead on.  I can't stand dungeons that do not have a realistic ecology.   I actually thought Dragon Mountain presented a fairly believable ecology...


----------



## DaveMage

AEGMikeL said:
			
		

> For those attending Gencon Indy, it will be available for sale there from AEG directly each of the days of the convention, while supplies last.




I'll be interested to hear how long supplies last.    

Also, I'll bet you'll have a whole lot of people who, even if they don't buy it, will come by just to get a look at it...


----------



## Demon Gnome

Correct me if I'm wrong, but looking at the picture of the guy in front of the wall mounted maps, it appears each map is folded into quarters? If so, then maybe the maps might not be so bad to use after all. I was originally under the impression they would be folded into eighths (as Undermountain, Myth Drannor, etc were). Things are looking up all the time   (except adding ta week to when I was hoping WLD would be out by =P)


----------



## jim pinto

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but looking at the picture of the guy in front of the wall mounted maps, it appears each map is folded into quarters? If so, then maybe the maps might not be so bad to use after all. I was originally under the impression they would be folded into eighths (as Undermountain, Myth Drannor, etc were). Things are looking up all the time   (except adding ta week to when I was hoping WLD would be out by =P)




not only is each map folded into fourths,
they are conviently 8.5 by 11 inch fourths

which means they'll photocopy nicely on any standard copier


----------



## jim pinto

*pacing it... a word of advice*

oops. posted twice. see below.


----------



## jim pinto

*pacing it... a word of advice from the designer and all*

something DMs of this adventure should consider is pacing

(also, starting with 2nd level characters, 30 rooms in)

but moving on...

pacing this dungeon implies that even completist gamers who
must inspect every nook and cranny should consider NOT
searching every nook and cranny.

the dungeon is going to be long enough, without the PCs stopping
to search every passage. hopefully after 3 or 4 traps that lead to
dead ends or red herrings, the PCs will start to ask the question of
why everything is trapped.

if that doesn't work, drop in a lantern archon to explain a random
clue about the dungeon and then disappear between two cracks in
the wall.

DMs should also consider adding small rewards where we
may have failed to put them or reduce the likelihood of reseting
traps. but encourage PCs to leave certain areas alone by making
the traps more obvious. A spot check DC 5 higher than a Search
DC

all of this, of course, is dependent on play style... i like a dungeon
with 30 or so empty rooms before the PCs find the meat, while
other groups may prefer dungeons with something every step of
the way.

the key is to make sure that 1st level PCs don't have to stop and sleep
every 3rd room because of rat bites.

once the product is out, i'll be available for advice, suggestions,
bar mitzvahs and weddings (i am ordained).

peace


----------



## Leopold

I pretty much plan on putting a kill counter story hour. Mark off room by room aas well as death count.


----------



## jim pinto

Leopold said:
			
		

> I pretty much plan on putting a kill counter story hour. Mark off room by room aas well as death count.




we almost put a checklist in the book for each monster
with little skulls that you could shade in. that would
be ideal for the monster hunter who wants to "collect
them all."

another thing to think about is giving the PCs 300 gp
worth of potions, before they set out, because starting
PCs have enough trouble without being short on cash too.

or allow them the Wealth Feat for free, from  Feats

(wizards will love you)


----------



## Leopold

jim pinto said:
			
		

> we almost put a checklist in the book for each monster
> with little skulls that you could shade in. that would
> be ideal for the monster hunter who wants to "collect
> them all."
> 
> another thing to think about is giving the PCs 300 gp
> worth of potions, before they set out, because starting
> PCs have enough trouble without being short on cash too.
> 
> or allow them the Wealth Feat for free, from  Feats
> 
> (wizards will love you)




My pc's are 3rd/4th level. They won't have any problems looting and pillaging. A kill sheet would be a nice PDF add-on? why not snap to it?!?!?


----------



## Jim Hague

Hell, once it's out, I'll be happy to let DMs in on my particular sections...(those two in the upper left-hand part of the map).


----------



## jim pinto

Leopold said:
			
		

> My pc's are 3rd/4th level. They won't have any problems looting and pillaging. A kill sheet would be a nice PDF add-on? why not snap to it?!?!?




3rd/4th.... they'll need to skip map A, altogether
and jump into map B or E

kill sheet... hmmm....


----------



## Demon Gnome

> or allow them the Wealth Feat for free, from Feats




What does this feat grant exactly as I don't have the resource it is mentioned within. 




> Hell, once it's out, I'll be happy to let DMs in on my particular sections...(those two in the upper left-hand part of the map).




Cool,would be awesome to hear about some more info about particular sections that I'd be running players through eventually.


----------



## jim pinto

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> What does this feat grant exactly as I don't have the resource it is mentioned within.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool,would be awesome to hear about some more info about particular sections that I'd be running players through eventually.




you don't own feats?
for shame.... i think its one of our best books
i worked really hard on it... and made 1,000+ feats
a lot better than they were

i think a lot of people asked that we not give out spoilers on here,
lest those who are playing have the adventure ruined...

demon gnome... jim hague (aka mark carroll), please meet at the playground
after school.

as for the wealth feat, you begin with +750 gp
at the beginning of play.

instead, what i recommend, is have someone give them
750 gp AFTER they are done making their character (so they
aren't spending it on armor) and instead have them buy potions
and special items with it

alternately, just give them 500 gp by a wealthy merchant who
is buying a share in their claim of the booty.

each PC has 5 shares (worth 20% of the take each) that he can
sell to an interested buyer for 500 gp each. this allows a greedy
PC to buy a +1 longsword for the price of 4 shares... or 80% of
the take...



of course, this sort of deal should only be entered into with lawful
PCs or PCs with ties to the community. no investor is going to give
money to someone he can't trust or who would kill a constable to
keep an ivory comb....

okay. now i'm preaching... just start playing. jeesh.

oh wait. you need the book.

the first person to drive to the office and type up my procedure manual
for me, gets a free copy of the book.


----------



## Jim Hague

Bah.  I'll only answer specific questions, usually in PMs or e-mail, jim.   Now, after it's been out for awhile, I think a thread about what _else_ can be done with the WLD aside from the default campaign setting might be cool...


----------



## jim pinto

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Bah.  I'll only answer specific questions, usually in PMs or e-mail, jim.   Now, after it's been out for awhile, I think a thread about what _else_ can be done with the WLD aside from the default campaign setting might be cool...




cool

i intend to do a weekly update ... region by region... giving people
alternate ways to use that section of the dungeon....

so far, my biggest recommendation is to start with MORE stuff
or 2nd level and skipping the first 30 rooms or so... only because
i know how much people tend to balk at 1st level characters

anyway

i'll be back online later tonight... whew... i'm a blabber mouth today

what was that, like 10 posts in 4 hours on one thread?


----------



## Demon Gnome

> the first person to drive to the office and type up my procedure manual




Where and how much is there to type ?


And yes I don't have feats, in fact never even heard of it til now. In fact never really heard of any of AEG's stuff until Stargate SG-1 RPG (GREAT book btw). Will have to check it out sometime.

As for the money part, I kinda like the idea of giving them money after they have started. Though I also like the idea of starting at 2nd level. About how far in should a 2nd level group start and does starting farther in lose anything as in intel gathered and such from the early rooms about the dungeon?


----------



## jim pinto

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> Where and how much is there to type ?
> 
> 
> And yes I don't have feats, in fact never even heard of it til now. In fact never really heard of any of AEG's stuff until Stargate SG-1 RPG (GREAT book btw). Will have to check it out sometime.
> 
> As for the money part, I kinda like the idea of giving them money after they have started. Though I also like the idea of starting at 2nd level. About how far in should a 2nd level group start and does starting farther in lose anything as in intel gathered and such from the early rooms about the dungeon?




you could skip the first 30 rooms and not miss a lot, except
some general mood and developmental concepts... the initial
rooms are supposed to be creepy and hint that this isn't just
any old dungeon. the PCs, who are 1st level, have never been
in a dungeon, anyway, but seasoned PCs should be asking questions
like why does this trap lead to an empty room?!?!

oh crap. now we have to go back through it?

however, one of the advantages of these dead ends is they make great places to rest.

if you compress the loathesome concepts of these rooms
into the next subsection of the dungeon, then you'll
get some morose orcs, ambushing kobolds, fearless rats,
and a powerful darkmantle in a much smaller area.

it might take some work, depending on whether you want
the adventurers to go north or east, but in the end, just
having them start at 2nd level is enough.

heck, start them at the beginning, but advance them to 3rd level
MUCH later than anticipated.

as for the rest of our d20 line, there are plenty of good books
that i'm very proud of... mercenaries, magic, monster, feats,
toolbox (ennie winner), adventure (i and ii), and relics.... that
would be quite useful for DMs running this dungeon

and if you run the dungeon as intended, the money won't be
of much use to them afterwards.

note. the whole 1st level vs. 2nd level thing should be based on
style. PCs that like the struggles of a low level adventure should
endure the slow progress of 3 sessions before they advance to
second, while a group that starts at 2nd level should have to
wait 5 or 6 sessions before advancing.

the book details XP progression and this should also help you
determine who you would like to advance the party through the
adventure.


----------



## thundershot

I can't wait... I can't wait...

Hm... a monster check sheet... A great idea, but I can see some players using it too. "Okay guys, we've got a half-fiend medusa coming up ahead.."

Then again, they don't know which room is which. Unless...

"A behir?? Be on the lookout, there's some umber hulks in this room somewhere, too.." 


Chris


----------



## jim pinto

thundershot said:
			
		

> I can't wait... I can't wait...
> 
> Hm... a monster check sheet... A great idea, but I can see some players using it too. "Okay guys, we've got a half-fiend medusa coming up ahead.."
> 
> Then again, they don't know which room is which. Unless...
> 
> "A behir?? Be on the lookout, there's some umber hulks in this room somewhere, too.."
> 
> Chris




again with the umber hulks

and the checklist would be in alphabetical order, so no one would know WHEN they are finding anything.... oh crap, there's a titan on this list... i hope we DON'T find that soon.


----------



## jim pinto

*gencon is coming*

less than 72 hours.....


----------



## thundershot

I was wondering if anyone would catch the Umber Hulk reference. 

Speaking of which... you COULD have put them in. Apparently it's very easy to get WOTC's permission to use the other monsters... Necromancer Games does it quite often (or maybe it's just easier for them...)

Also, the WLD finally appeared on Amazon, so anyone wanting to get in on the list to order it get on now (link in sig) before I order it. I may even do so tonight, but everyone on the list should send the discount back through the list as well...


Chris


----------



## Demon Gnome

> After that the book will officially release on August 30.




How Accurate is this date as I have seen reports of other places having conflicting dates.


----------



## AEGMikeL

::looks outside front door of office to see AEG banner over office::   

<CS-Marketing speak>
Alderac Entertainment Group
D20 Supplement
THE WORLD'S LARGEST DUNGEON
SKU#8523
Shipping to Stores starting on August 30

(It will be in stores that week.  Contact your store immediately about ordering a copy so you don't miss out!)

</CS-Marketing speak>

August 31 is the earliest you should see it in stores.   However, don't forget that it can be purchased from us at Gencon Indy, if you're in attendance.

It's a handy and sizeable book...I've been using it for the following when not running the game here at the offices:

1) pressing money flat
2) paperweight for sunday LA times
3) backup bat for saturday softball
4) terrifying ogre neighbors, who run in fear of it's size
5) putting it on top of cat, to keep him from running outside
6) placed in secondary weapon location under bed next to 2 handed broadsword


----------



## Demon Gnome

The reason I asked is Amazon just added WLD to their site like yesterday with a release date of august 16th (today), even preordered and it supposedly says estimated delivery date of the 18th.



> Order Date: Aug 15, 2004
> Order #: ###-#######-#######
> Recipient: *************
> 
> Items not yet shipped:
> Delivery estimate: Aug 18, 2004
> 1 of World's Largest Dungeon


----------



## AEGMikeL

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> The reason I asked is Amazon just added WLD to their site like yesterday with a release date of august 16th (today), even preordered and it supposedly says estimated delivery date of the 18th.





The dates that I have state that August 30 is the correct release date.  I'll check with our sales staff and find out any details about amazon.com, but don't be suprised if their dates are incorrect.


----------



## DaveMage

Amazon is notorious for having the wrong dates.


----------



## Demon Gnome

Yes, but it's rather stupid to put an item up and then say, "it ships tommorrow". I mean, come on, they must know they don't physically have the books to ship the next day.


----------



## Ulrick

jim pinto said:
			
		

> as for the rest of our d20 line, there are plenty of good books
> that i'm very proud of... mercenaries, magic, monster, feats,
> *toolbox (ennie winner)*, adventure (i and ii), and relics.... that
> would be quite useful for DMs running this dungeon




I love Toolbox. Thank you for creating such a wonderful DM resource that is worth every penny. There is so much mediocre d20 stuff out there and at first glance I thought Toolbox was just "another book." But when I flipped through it I was astounded...and very frustrated because I wasn't getting paid for another week and I wanted it then and there. 

I'm definitely going to take a look at The World's Largest Dungeon. From what I've seen in this thread, it'll probably be worth every penny too. 

Thanks.


----------



## Jim Hague

Ulrick said:
			
		

> I love Toolbox. Thank you for creating such a wonderful DM resource that is worth every penny. There is so much mediocre d20 stuff out there and at first glance I thought Toolbox was just "another book." But when I flipped through it I was astounded...and very frustrated because I wasn't getting paid for another week and I wanted it then and there.
> 
> I'm definitely going to take a look at The World's Largest Dungeon. From what I've seen in this thread, it'll probably be worth every penny too.
> 
> Thanks.





Then you'll be happy to know that jim, myself and all the other writers that worked on WLD did our damndest to follow in that vein - the WLD is a campaign, it's a modular dungeon, and it's a toolbox.  And that's just for starters.


----------



## jim pinto

*almost there....*

i leave for gencon tomorrow morning, so in about 3 hours, i stop following this thread until the 24th...

if you have questions or concerns BEFORE i leave, post them soon

if you come by the booth at gencon, say hi
and i'll sign your book

i'm at the booth from 1pm to 4pm (every day)
guaranteed. beyond that, its hit and miss

peace
and by this time next week, someone will have posted a really
good review on this thread

HINT HINT


----------



## DaveMage

Enjoy the trip, jim - and thanks for keeping us well fed with information.


----------



## AEGMikeL

I'd also like to point that that I too will be gone from the office to Gencon Indy until the 25th of this month...

So those of you looking for updates on the in-office game will have to wait until September 1, as our next session will be on August 31. Look for more death and destruction...err I mean high adventure and lots of treasure...in the weeks to come.

I hope those of you who purchase the book truly enjoy it.  Although I had NOTHING to do with it (save typing up some tables for pinto when his hand looked like a snapped piece of green wood), holding the book in my hands and running it for good friends makes ME feel as if I'm back in the good old days of D&D:  watching players try to survive deadly traps, solving interesting puzzles, and facing some diabolical monsters.   Kinda makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, doesn't it?  

::chuckles to self as the audio memory of pinto's character's screams-as-he-fell-into-the-Burning-Hands-trap plays...::


----------



## Demon Gnome

How convenient for me, I complained to amazon about their screw up on the release date, and got free next day shipping out of it


----------



## DaveMage

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> How convenient for me, I complained to amazon about their screw up on the release date, and got free next day shipping out of it




 

Lucky bum...


----------



## Jim Hague

All depends on whether I get my comp copy by then, jim...

Speaking of which, by a nice coincidence, I'll be ending up with 2 copies, folks.  I may run a contest on here with the 2nd copy as a prize.  Whattaya think?


----------



## Leopold

Has Anyone Bought This Thing Yet??!?!?


----------



## Demon Gnome

> Has Anyone Bought This Thing Yet??!?!?




Not likely, as the book hasn't been released yet.


----------



## Leopold

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> Not likely, as the book hasn't been released yet.





it's at gencon as we speak.


----------



## Geoffrey

I hope someone at Gen Con who has purchased this product will post in this thread soon.


----------



## DaveMage

I'm curious too!  Anyone back from GenCon care to share their thoughts on this one?


----------



## KB9JMQ

Hey I havent got a good look at it but I won one at GenCon in the Piazo drawing.   

Then I got Jim Pinto to sign it. Which was cool.
All I can say is it is a Monster of a Book. The quick glance thru left me with the impression that I liked the layout.
I carried it in my backpack all day and let me tell you that sucker is heavy.


----------



## JoeGKushner

I'll be reviewing it for a new magazine called d20 Filtered. Just got back from the Con at 10:30 PM yesterday and woke up at 5:00 AM today and won't be out of work for a while so not even an initial impressions yet, but let me tell you, it is heavy...


----------



## Jim Hague

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I'll be reviewing it for a new magazine called d20 Filtered. Just got back from the Con at 10:30 PM yesterday and woke up at 5:00 AM today and won't be out of work for a while so not even an initial impressions yet, but let me tell you, it is heavy...




Sweet.  I'm looking forward to the review - call it ego, but I want to see what people think of my regions.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard

Tell us about the book, TELL US NOW, I COMMAND IT!

please?

AR


----------



## Psion

I'll be reviewing it here...


----------



## Jim Hague

Psion said:
			
		

> I'll be reviewing it here...




Looking forward to it.  WLD's my first major project (though I contributed some nifty stuff to 7th Sea's Rapier's Edge book), so I'm eager to see what people think of it, good or bad.


----------



## Leopold

CAn't anyone at least give us some info on the book?!?! pix/?!!?!? first thoughts?!?


----------



## MerakSpielman

So how long will it take to read through the thing so y'all can post proper, complete reviews?


----------



## Altamont Ravenard

Ack! Just learned that my FLGS will detail it at 133 $CAD + taxes. That's a lot of money for a book. Actually, if I buy it at that price, it'll be the single most expensive book I will have bought in my life (counting school books)...

Might have to order it from Amazon instead (30% rebate)...

AR


----------



## Jim Hague

*AEG sells 3/4 of a ton of WLD at GenCon!*

Gah, double post!


----------



## Jim Hague

*AEG sells 3/4 of a ton of WLD at GenCon!*

*puts on the freelance shill hat*

Woohoo!  

Just got off the line with jim pinto, and The World's Largest Dungeon sold 3/4 of a ton's worth of books.  Yikes.  When we said it'd be a monster book, we had no idea.  And there's more regions left to explore...

jim'll be back tomorrow, once he's recovered from GenCon. 

*off comes the hat*

- The Jim that's not actually named Jim -


----------



## Psion

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Looking forward to it.  WLD's my first major project (though I contributed some nifty stuff to 7th Sea's Rapier's Edge book), so I'm eager to see what people think of it, good or bad.




Ah, a contributor!

Yeah, I talked to AEG's marketing guy and the con hoping he would let me leave with a copy. (For some reason I have only been getting stargate stuff in the mail lately). He said no.

But... there was a copy waiting for me when I got home. Yay AEG marketing guy! 

I just started poring though it. As long as we have some contributors here, can you explain the blurb on page 14 to me? It speaks as if monster summoning was permanent or something? Even if you count the anti-teleportation wards, I would assume it doesn't apply to summoning spells (being that they are essentially summoning an astral projection) or are blocked entirely. To assume that if they weren't blocked they would be permanent seems a little odd to me.


----------



## DaveMage

Congrats to AEG!  

I'm guessing that 3/4 ton means a couple hundred copies.  

Nice.

I'd love to hear your experiences, AEG staff!


----------



## Psion

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> Ack! Just learned that my FLGS will detail it at 133 $CAD + taxes. That's a lot of money for a book. Actually, if I buy it at that price, it'll be the single most expensive book I will have bought in my life (counting school books)...




Not me. I regularly purchased school books over $100 US. $160 sticks out in my mind as a particularly annoying book I had to purchase new.


----------



## Jim Hague

Psion said:
			
		

> Ah, a contributor!
> 
> I just started poring though it. As long as we have some contributors here, can you explain the blurb on page 14 to me? It speaks as if monster summoning was permanent or something? Even if you count the anti-teleportation wards, I would assume it doesn't apply to summoning spells (being that they are essentially summoning an astral projection) or are blocked entirely. To assume that if they weren't blocked they would be permanent seems a little odd to me.




Take this with a grain of salt - I didn't get a chance to look at the proofs before they went to press.  But if I recall correctly, WLD presents several options for summonings:

*You can summon in, but not out, and the creature vanishes into aether when the duration ends.

*You can summon in but not out, and the creature is trapped in the dungeon with you.

*Since you'll likely be summoning using the standard lists, you transpose a creature from another part of the Dungeon to you, it doesn't go away, and may have an agenda of its own.  (Very shaky on this one, as it may have been tossed later on).

*Summoning simply doesn't work.  (Unlikely, since we tried our damndest to make the WLD work across the board for the standard classes).

jim pinto ought to be on tomorrow, so he can answer the question with a little more surety than authority than I as a freelancer can.


----------



## Psion

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Take this with a grain of salt - I didn't get a chance to look at the proofs before they went to press.  But if I recall correctly, WLD presents several options for summonings:
> 
> *You can summon in, but not out, and the creature vanishes into aether when the duration ends.
> 
> *You can summon in but not out, and the creature is trapped in the dungeon with you.
> 
> *Since you'll likely be summoning using the standard lists, you transpose a creature from another part of the Dungeon to you, it doesn't go away, and may have an agenda of its own.  (Very shaky on this one, as it may have been tossed later on).
> 
> *Summoning simply doesn't work.  (Unlikely, since we tried our damndest to make the WLD work across the board for the standard classes).
> 
> jim pinto ought to be on tomorrow, so he can answer the question with a little more surety than authority than I as a freelancer can.




Cool. Too bad I didn't get a chance to say hi to him at the con.

I'll check and see if said passage exists, but I'll try and see if it is there. That would be convenient, and the first option would be my choice. The passage in question sounds like it assumes #2 would prevail if you allowed it, but for PCs, the last prevails.


----------



## mearls

It was pretty interesting watching the reaction the World's Largest Dungeon at GenCon. It was easily the talk of the show - you couldn't ask anyone about what they saw in the convention hall without it coming up.

I haven't picked up a copy yet - it literally was too big to fit into the bags I brought with me, and I would've flipped if it got damaged during the baggage handling process. From what I heard from people who bought it, though, it's pretty cool. I was looking through a friend's copy, and I really, really wanted to knock him over the head with it and run off with WLD in my clutches. I don't normally try to use my professional reputation (such as it is) to get swag, but I was really, really tempted to in this case.

The interesting thing is that a lot of people were talking about how d20 is on the way out, yet this is the second consecutive GenCon where the most buzz-worthy RPG product was for d20. Everyone was talking about AU last year, and this year I heard more about WLD than the Vampire reboot or GURPS 4e.


----------



## JoeGKushner

I still haven't had a chance to do more than glance through the book. Art seems solid, layout seems solid. The text is small, and there is a lot of it. This is a good thing for those who want more text in their adventurers.

I've looked over the introduction and while it gives a background, it almost comes out and admits that it's there to give you the dungeon as opposed to being ten pages of detailed information. Same thing with the ecology and other 'realistic' aspects of a dungeon.


----------



## DaveMage

mearls said:
			
		

> It was pretty interesting watching the reaction the World's Largest Dungeon at GenCon. It was easily the talk of the show - you couldn't ask anyone about what they saw in the convention hall without it coming up.
> 
> The interesting thing is that a lot of people were talking about how d20 is on the way out, yet this is the second consecutive GenCon where the most buzz-worthy RPG product was for d20. Everyone was talking about AU last year, and this year I heard more about WLD than the Vampire reboot or GURPS 4e.




Excellent - thanks for sharing this, Mike!

I hope the product does well.  I personally would like to see more (although not too many more) high-end products like this.  I mean, if AEG can do this for a dungeon, certainly other companies, like, say, Malhavoc, could do something like this for their next Beyond Countless Doorways book.


----------



## Leopold

/sob I WANT THIS THING! I HAVE TO WAIT TILL THE 30th to order it!! I am getting this shipped Next Day Air cost be damned!!


----------



## Jupp

Anyone has a clue when and where WLD will be available in Europe, specifically Germany, Austria or Switzerland?


----------



## jim pinto

*back in the hiz-ouse*

i'm back to work after a two-day bought with phlegm and sickness

which really sucks because i haven't been sick for 3 years
(with my 16 Con and all)

but i digress

Gencon 2004 was great and we sold a lot of product.
The hard part was explaining to so many people what was
in the book, only to have them walk away and scream something
about how obnoxius $100 was to charge for a product...

blah. blah. blah.

In the end, we sold 1500 lbs. worth of books and everyone who
walked away with one felt GOOD about their purchase, instead
of grousing about the price.

Do the math.

15 adventures for $100 = $6.67 each
1612 encounter for $100 = $.06 each

its kind of a no brainer

But, I digress again.

The show was a huge success. We had a great time. I signed enough
copies to ruin 3 sharpies. And even Dave Arneson was there to get a copy
of the dungeon.

[I almost forgot I met Mark Singer and shook his hand, telling him
how much I loved Beastmaster as a kid. What a great guy.]

Let's see. What else can I tell you?

Jonathan Sweet, Robin Laws, and Ken Hite all stopped by to get a copy
and show it off at the "Geek-out" seminar. I don't remember the name,
but its designed to showcase the cool and get people excited about
what's coming. Ken Hite is my hero and I should probably post that
now, lest he come down here and kick my ass for failing to remind everyone.



More news when I think of it and I'll post again, to answer everyone's
questions.

Btw... when you get the book, read the designer notes at the back of the book.


----------



## jim pinto

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I still haven't had a chance to do more than glance through the book. Art seems solid, layout seems solid. The text is small, and there is a lot of it. This is a good thing for those who want more text in their adventurers.
> 
> I've looked over the introduction and while it gives a background, it almost comes out and admits that it's there to give you the dungeon as opposed to being ten pages of detailed information. Same thing with the ecology and other 'realistic' aspects of a dungeon.




I hope you're saying that as a good thing?!?!

I went out of my way to make a clean, curt background so DMs could get
right in and play. I hate 32-pages adventures that have 5 page introductions.
And since this thing is 840-pages and the intro is like more like 12, hopefully
people will enjoy the short, shotgun-like revelations.

Wait a minute Joe... i don't remember you paying for a copy.... what gives?



btw... i would love to see some people who are already reading/running it post some commentary.


----------



## JoeGKushner

jim pinto said:
			
		

> Wait a minute Joe... i don't remember you paying for a copy.... what gives?




Fat Ninja strikes again! You missed my slieght of hand. 

Actually, Brad talked John into coughing up a dented copy for his d20 Filtered thing.

I personally like the way it starts off, giving the GM enough material to work with and offering advice on either running it straight as or breaking it up into multiple (what was it, something like 17) dungeons.


----------



## Soul

Hey Jim,

I was one of those you heckled while glancing around at it. I unfortunately didn't have quite enough at gen con, otherwise I would have. I was sort of hoping that maybe there was a 20% off coupon or something in the bags you get at the door, but noo just a free t-shirt. *sigh* =P Oh well, I can't complain I did get to at least drool at it. I'll probably be picking up a copy here soon. Is there any coverage in the book on incorporating it in any existing settings (I would assume no, but its worth asking)?

I'd also like to add that Mark Singer was probably the nicest person at the convention period. Very friendly guy, especialy since he honestly seemed happy to be there. If I had the extra money, I would have asked for an autograph just for that fact alone.


----------



## jim pinto

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Fat Ninja strikes again! You missed my slieght of hand.




and your sleight of hand



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Actually, Brad talked John into coughing up a dented copy for his d20 Filtered thing.




<shakes fist at john>



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I personally like the way it starts off, giving the GM enough material to work with and offering advice on either running it straight as or breaking it up into multiple (what was it, something like 17) dungeons.




15

and thanks. my intention was to make it useful. not narrow and impossible
to draw from for future dungeons.

since there are 16 maps, we expect people will only hit 7 of them
so DMs can either run it twice (OR steal from it for future adventures)


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> And even Dave Arneson was there to get a copy
> of the dungeon.




Now THAT is pretty damn cool.


----------



## jim pinto

Soul said:
			
		

> Hey Jim,
> 
> I was one of those you heckled while glancing around at it. I unfortunately didn't have quite enough at gen con, otherwise I would have. I was sort of hoping that maybe there was a 20% off coupon or something in the bags you get at the door, but noo just a free t-shirt. *sigh* =P Oh well, I can't complain I did get to at least drool at it. I'll probably be picking up a copy here soon. Is there any coverage in the book on incorporating it in any existing settings (I would assume no, but its worth asking)?
> 
> I'd also like to add that Mark Singer was probably the nicest person at the convention period. Very friendly guy, especialy since he honestly seemed happy to be there. If I had the extra money, I would have asked for an autograph just for that fact alone.




i mock you a second time.... people are already playing and reading
and enjoying the biggest gaming book ever... and what are you doing
with your spare $100 ?? eating? buying clothes? ha. i scoff at you?

as for incorporating it? no. but the world its set in is generic
to fit your world. if the PCs are already 8th level, have them come
in a side door

or just run sections you like and run them together into ONE BIG THING
that culminates with Region N

[add: marc singer rocks]

peace


----------



## Jim Hague

jim pinto said:
			
		

> as for incorporating it? no. but the world its set in is generic
> to fit your world. if the PCs are already 8th level, have them come
> in a side door
> 
> or just run sections you like and run them together into ONE BIG THING
> that culminates with Region N
> 
> 
> peace




I'm gonna try it both ways - as one off/modulars, then as one big thing.  Or link the modules together through some wonky non-Euclidian architecture...

Hmm.
_Edit: Woot, 500th post!_


----------



## jim pinto

*Region A, spoilers*

Starting with Region A and posting as I see fit, I'm going to be
giving people SPOILERS AND ALTERNATE ENDINGS to Regions.

If you don't want anything spoiled, do not READ THIS.

These Alternate Endings will provide DMs with a new way to use the Region and finish off the climax in an interesting manner that might befit your storytelling style.

In Region A, Longtail is utilizing a portal, bringing forth Fiendish beasts into the dungeon. This is certainly a place of importance if the PCs go north into Region E and explain to the Inevitables there what is going on. This can have far-reaching implications if the PCs fail to close the portal, because this means that more creatures are coming into the dungeon, creating an influx or cretures (positive population growth) that will be hard to stymie.

Now. Since this is a low-level Region, closing the portal can't be too difficult, but DMs willing to make this part of a longer saga, are welcome to increase the DCs involved with closing the portal or place an object in another Region that can close it off. Such "cliched" ideas are not uncommon in dungeon adventures, but we've kept them to a minimum here. Some of the concepts below fit well, because the regions themselves already have built in "artifacts" that can be changed easily without undermining the campaign.

A ward staff from Region E would be perfect for sealing the gate, if the DM doesn't mind backtracking. A not so "clean" answer is a lost drow Relic from the age of Mahir (see page 432 and page 643) in Region I or M. Region C could also house one of Arum's (see page 128) lost trinkets that also closes the rift. Since his magic can do just about anything the DM needs it to do, there's no reason this can't be slipped in.

The chains from Room C21 also work and the  blood of the ethereal filcher in Region C makes for a great plot device as well.... if the PCs think of it. [The blood opens the portal on itself, creating a vortex of energy that sucks everything that touches it into nether, so creatures summoned into the prime material plane immediately disappear and vice versa.]

Another possible conclusion is to remove the portal and replace it with a warped wand of summon monster 3 that the imp has tainted and recharges every night while Longtail sleeps. Longtail is unaware of the imp's true plans and in his maddened and unpredictable state continues to bring creatures into the dungeon.

This is relatively straight-forward, doesn't require too much work to impliment, and makes Longtail less of a victim (or more, depending on your POV).

Idea #3. Replace the imp and Longtail with a (fiendish) Chain Devil with the summoning strength of a Osyluth. Instead of fiendish darkmantles throughout the Region, replace them with Lemures and the occasional Bearded or Bone Devil. Of course, PCs fighting a chain devil better have a few orcs in toe as their allies to bring him down. This works really well for groups with 6 PCs.

Of course, such a shift in ecology is sure to scare the pants off of the PCs, so perhaps 1 in 5 darkmantle encounters is really an insane bearded devil lacking the summon and (silly) beard abilities and instead has the Kyton's chain powers and some improved grab/entangle ability. The insane bearded devil should always be enraged.

If the demon prefers demons over devils, use dretch, babau, and a quasit manipulator.

Idea #4 involves a ruptured egg or demon sac that creatures/spawns foul monsters. This can be tied to Region I and M easily for the aberration angle or Regions C and K, for the tainted dragon egg plot hook.

Idea #5. Rumor has it the portal is also an escape, so creatures from Regions E and F have migrated down to Region A to explore (maybe even an elf deserter from Region H). Region B has its own problems and only a handfull of goblins could really make it this far anyway.

Okay.

That's enough for today and certainly enough to scare off any PCs silly enough to read the book before you run it.


----------



## Psion

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> I'm gonna try it both ways - as one off/modulars, then as one big thing.  Or link the modules together through some wonky non-Euclidian architecture...
> 
> Hmm.




Hmmm indeed


----------



## Soul

jim pinto said:
			
		

> i mock you a second time.... people are already playing and reading
> and enjoying the biggest gaming book ever... and what are you doing
> with your spare $100 ?? eating? buying clothes? ha. i scoff at you?
> peace




Hah! Well, I'm all for a good mocking, unfortunately there was no spare hundred. If there was, it would have been bought then and there. Perhaps, I would have even tried to get you to ruin yet another pen by signing it. Unfortunatly, as I said then I was like 20 short. Going to Gen Con was sort of a last minute thing for me, and well its a good thing I didn't spend that money at that time, as I ended up needing it when I got home. =/ Such is life.


----------



## DaveMage

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> _Edit: Woot, 500th post!_




Well, the World's Largest Dungeon is deserving of the site's largest thread...  

(Actually, it's not the site's largest thread, but it is pretty big.    )


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Well, the World's Largest Dungeon is deserving of the site's largest thread...
> 
> (Actually, it's not the site's largest thread, but it is pretty big.    )




no sooner is it said, and the thread screeches to a halt.

i hope that means everyone is READING their copies


----------



## Demon Gnome

Still waiting for mine on Tuesday or so.


----------



## DaveMage

Mine has been ordered...

Now it's up to the amazon gods to get it to me.

I do hate waiting, though...


----------



## pendril

*New WLD Yahoo Group*

Jim & Everyone,

Just wanted you to know that a new Yahoo group has been created for our WLD club in Memphis.  We plan to start the delve on Sept 25th and play twice a month. The group is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wld-memphis/. Feel free to visit us anytime!

-Todd Rooks
 Game Master, WLD


----------



## Ashran

pendril said:
			
		

> Jim & Everyone,
> 
> Just wanted you to know that a new Yahoo group has been created for our WLD club in Memphis.  We plan to start the delve on Sept 25th and play twice a month. The group is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wld-memphis/. Feel free to visit us anytime!
> 
> -Todd Rooks
> Game Master, WLD




I also started a new yahoo club, more general in idea. It's for lover of that book (that I am still waiting btw, and it will take some time before I get it, since I live in belgium) to post ideas, stories, question, well discuss anything in regards to WLD.

The adress is http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/wldfc/

Feel free to join.


----------



## jim pinto

pendril said:
			
		

> Jim & Everyone,
> 
> Just wanted you to know that a new Yahoo group has been created for our WLD club in Memphis.  We plan to start the delve on Sept 25th and play twice a month. The group is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wld-memphis/. Feel free to visit us anytime!
> 
> -Todd Rooks
> Game Master, WLD




can we assume you've read the first region?

people are waiting for feedback


----------



## Gnarlo

Just picked up this monstrosity today (can I change my post in the "Scariest Monster" thread to this booK?  ) It's nicely bound, lovely cover, and a font size that reminds me of reading the 1 volume OED   I don't think anyone can complain about not getting their money's worth out of it. Also came with the maps shrinkwrapped seperately in a pack with a set of Chessex Strawberry dice, a pack of 2 Reaper minis, and the 3.5 Character Record Folio from Green Ronin; I'm not sure if those are standard with the book or more reason to like my FLGS, but it was quite nice. Just sitting down with a 2L Dew to start perusing, should have an interesting evening in front of me.


----------



## Demon Gnome

I thought the official release date for this was aug. 30th, today. Is that only for those who order from AEG directly or picked it up at Gencon?  Just talked to Amazon today and they have no idea when it's supposed to be out. Are there any companies with it for sale right now?


----------



## spectre72

Gnarlo said:
			
		

> Also came with the maps shrinkwrapped seperately in a pack with a set of Chessex Strawberry dice, a pack of 2 Reaper minis, and the 3.5 Character Record Folio from Green Ronin; I'm not sure if those are standard with the book or more reason to like my FLGS, but it was quite nice.




Jim,

Is this standard with the maps, or was his FLGS just being nice to him.

I have ordered my copy from amazon.com and was just curious if I should expect extra goodies, or just the hard cover and maps.

Thanks
Scott


----------



## Turin Turambar

Well... as soon as I get mine, we will be delving into it..  A buddy of mine is getting a copy as well, and we are going to run to different groups, playing on the same days  ( I presume).  I will set up a web addie quickly thereafter to post results of my scenario.. hopefully he may do the same, or I just might do his as well...  stay tuned


----------



## calimedic911

just out of curiosity what is an flgs?  and where can I get the same setup?  my local shop is not gettign mine in until friday   .  hopefully mine will have the same stuff.  but I have been waiting impatiently for it to come in.  

one quick favor... Jim, can you please hold off with the spoilers until more people have the book?  I love the posts but I also want some suprise when I get it.

Thanks for the Fantastic work guys.  I have been picking up everything I can get my hands on from you guys and am looking forward to lots more...

Sean


----------



## BiggusGeekus

calimedic911 said:
			
		

> just out of curiosity what is an flgs?




*F*------
*L*ocal
*G*aming
*S*tore

The "F" can stand for "Friendly" or "Fiendish" depending on how nice the store is.


----------



## johnsemlak

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> *F*------
> *L*ocal
> *G*aming
> *S*tore
> 
> The "F" can stand for "Friendly" or "Fiendish" depending on how nice the store is.



 ...or perhaps 'foul', as in foul-smelling.


----------



## spectre72

spectre72 said:
			
		

> Jim,
> 
> Is this standard with the maps, or was his FLGS just being nice to him.
> 
> I have ordered my copy from amazon.com and was just curious if I should expect extra goodies, or just the hard cover and maps.
> 
> Thanks
> Scott




Since Jim appears to be busy does anyone who has bought this care to comment on what they got with their maps.

Just very curious if other people got goodies shrinkwrapped with their maps.

Scott


----------



## DaveMage

I doubt that AEG would include a Green Ronin product with the WLD.  This sounds like either a distributor promotion or just local to that game store.


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I doubt that AEG would include a Green Ronin product with the WLD.  This sounds like either a distributor promotion or just local to that game store.




AEG has not bundled the dungeon with any other books or products,
but it seems like a smart call for a distributor to throw in some useful
slow-moving goodies in a bundle for his better stores. Charge $5 more
for $20 worth of product and everybody wins.



As for my 24-hour absence from the board, John Zinser and I visited
GameTowne in San Diego and ran a 12-player World's Largest Dungeon
session. Ironically, the first ever death to a character outside of the AEG
offices came to Clay's Ranger who was Turned to Stone and died being
turned back. He was, however, resurrected in the Kiln of Odin and returned
to fight off the beasts.

We even had a beholder encounter (illegally, i might add), which died
easily at the hands of 12 18th-level characters.

I'll post an official report of the session, but John and I had a great time
and we want to thank everyone involved for having us.

Matt, Becky, and Clay all won prizes from the store owner and John and I are sending them a fruit basket filled with d20 books in place of fruit.

Peace


----------



## pendril

Jim,

I'm almost finished with Section A, and so far the material is some of the finest I've ever read. In particular, your organization of the dungeon into sections (and sections into sub-sections) makes running the adventure quite manageable. The character development and varied encounter conditions are unique and clever - no one can call this place monotonous! From a practical standpoint, an adventure of this magnitude deserves an index. Perhaps you were planning this as a web bonus? In my next post, I'll provide a more thorough review and discuss how I'm preparing to run WLD.

-Todd
  Game Master 
  (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wld-memphis/)





			
				jim pinto said:
			
		

> can we assume you've read the first region?
> 
> people are waiting for feedback


----------



## matunas

Well, I am totally impressed. When I got the book, I opened a page at random and started reading. It turns out I was in Region C, and there was all this interesting stuff about a demon escape, and so I started reading at the beginning of the Region.

All I can say is Wow! If all of the Regions are as cool as this one, then this is the best $100 I've ever spent.

What I really like is the overall idea of the whole Region. It's like looking at the evolution of an area after a great event took place. At first glance, it doesn't really seem to have any cohesiveness, but then you start to see how it all fits together.

Very cool book! I'm a believer!


----------



## Demon Gnome

Just finished reading through Region A. All I can say so far is, Awesome Job!  So worth the money as long as the rest measure up.

Question, it mentions that entangle spells weren't used for the bad guys and recommend not be allowed for the players either, but in region A the kobold caster mentions using a web as part of his tactics?


----------



## Demon Gnome

Btw, a little bit on how I will be running my game. We currently have 7 players and myself, the DM. I plan on starting them at he beginning at level 1 and to try and work their way up as far as possible (to epic hopefully). Using the suggestion a while back of giving the players a lil something 'extra' to help them along, I am using the regional feats and equipment from Player's Guide to Forgotten Realms (where my WLD is set, way up north near the Spine of the World and the North) where in addition to the free piece of regional equipment, they will also be granted one regional feat free, both as an added boost and to add some more flavor to each character.


----------



## Piratecat

Psion said:
			
		

> Hmmm indeed




Hmmm indeedly doodley!


----------



## jim pinto

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> Just finished reading through Region A. All I can say so far is, Awesome Job!  So worth the money as long as the rest measure up.
> 
> Question, it mentions that entangle spells weren't used for the bad guys and recommend not be allowed for the players either, but in region A the kobold caster mentions using a web as part of his tactics?




that one slipped past us

you can keep if you like, but i recommend changing it

this is my own personal bias shinning through though

i think entangle, web, and grease RUIN dungeons and dragons
i have strong feelings about it, that would a great deal of discussion
to illustrate. but you're the DM, you do what you like.

i just know PCs with WEB in a dungeon 24/7 are going to ruin
the DMs game time and time again.


----------



## jim pinto

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> Btw, a little bit on how I will be running my game. We currently have 7 players and myself, the DM. I plan on starting them at he beginning at level 1 and to try and work their way up as far as possible (to epic hopefully). Using the suggestion a while back of giving the players a lil something 'extra' to help them along, I am using the regional feats and equipment from Player's Guide to Forgotten Realms (where my WLD is set, way up north near the Spine of the World and the North) where in addition to the free piece of regional equipment, they will also be granted one regional feat free, both as an added boost and to add some more flavor to each character.




7 PCs means just about doubling every encounter
as this thing was designed with 4 PCs in mind.
although at the lower levels, that might not be
totally necessary.

you're almost always going to be scaling up.... FYI


----------



## Altamont Ravenard

I'd like to hear your thoughts on those spells. Feel free to start a new thread! 

AR


----------



## Arnwyn

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> Ack! Just learned that my FLGS will detail it at 133 $CAD + taxes. That's a lot of money for a book. Actually, if I buy it at that price, it'll be the single most expensive book I will have bought in my life (counting school books)...
> 
> Might have to order it from Amazon instead (30% rebate)...



Indeed you should consider Amazon.ca - C$92 + GST = about $98, and free shipping. If you can wait a bit, that's your best option (and what I'm doing - also tied to the fact that my LGS has very questionable ordering times).

(And, as Psion noted, I too have had textbooks cost considerably more than that.)


----------



## matunas

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> Question, it mentions that entangle spells weren't used for the bad guys and recommend not be allowed for the players either, but in region A the kobold caster mentions using a web as part of his tactics?




I was under the impression that the entangle spells were NOT recommended simply because there wasn't any undergrowth or plants or soil in which to grow plants.


----------



## spectre72

Has anyone gotten a "Real" shipping extimate from Amazon?

They are still saying it is shipping August 31st, and we know that's not happening


----------



## jim pinto

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> I'd like to hear your thoughts on those spells. Feel free to start a new thread!
> 
> AR




i think that's a troll comment

are you baiting me into a flame war with enworlders, altamont?

[i almost fell for your trick]

and matanus, if you look at one of the sidebars (in the intro i think),
you'll see my comments about not letting PCs have grease/web

the kobold that does have it is a sorcerer, i believe, so
there's no fear of the PCs getting it, but its still a problem
in my opinion.

web should be replaced with blur, universally and grease
can be replaced with color spray or mount and be just as
interesting in your games


----------



## Demon Gnome

Hmmm, I might have to take scaling it up into account with 7 ... i will run it as is to start to make sure nobody drops out along the way or what not.  As for exp handed out, based on your recommendations, would handing it out based off the EL and not individual encounters come out about the right rate for this, as suggested? or is there any other methods you would suggest for doling out exp to keep progression to 2-3 levels per region.?


----------



## jim pinto

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> Hmmm, I might have to take scaling it up into account with 7 ... i will run it as is to start to make sure nobody drops out along the way or what not.  As for exp handed out, based on your recommendations, would handing it out based off the EL and not individual encounters come out about the right rate for this, as suggested? or is there any other methods you would suggest for doling out exp to keep progression to 2-3 levels per region.?




I'd have to see it in practice, but let's take the first 15 rooms as an example.
There are 3 CR 2 encounters and 4 CR 1 encounters. That's 3000 XP, divided by 7.... which means about 425 per character, which is still half-way to 2nd level. At that rate 30 rooms = 1 level advancement. If there are 90 rooms on a map, the PCs will advance 3 times and be 4th level as they leave Map A to go to Map B or E. However, since i doubt they will hit all 115 Rooms in the region, this progression works.

You may have to fudge some details here and there and stop handing out XP after the 5th darkmantle is killed, but its a pretty good progression. When PCs start exploring every corner of the dungeon is when the XP system breaks down. So you need to be careful with a group of 7 PCs checking every nook and cranny for monsters.

I have my own XP methods, though. So, really, all I can do is make recommendations. You know your group better than I do.


----------



## twofalls

Hello EnGame posters, this is my first post to this forum, I've read this huge thread and am pleased to participate in your discussion.

To Jim Pinto, I understand the desire to get feedback on a labor of love, and I congratulate you on an extraordinary product. The maps are beautiful, the book is heavy and pleasing to the hand, and after reading section A I'm immensely impressed and delighted with the high standards set for its content. Using the dire template on low level creatures to make them different and interesting to experienced players was very creative, and the story is quite engaging in the simple way that makes for highly successful role-playing. In one of your posts you had requested game info on the book and as I'm going to run the game I will post info here as I can about our sessions.

I've been running games for 26 years, and for the past eighteen months I've been running a 3.0 campaign which I'm bringing to burn out on. My players (friends who have been playing in my games for the past two decades) purchased this book for me and I'm going to start running it this weekend as it has rekindled the fires of my imagination. I've expanded a little on the introduction and posted some rules to my group mail list that I will repost here and I invite commentary or suggestions from those on the forum.

I am going to run with the idea that the Gods created the Dungeon, and that its been recently opened by an earthquake. In my version the gods searched for a world to create mortals upon and found Muerta. Already living upon Muerta were creatures of evil nature that would easily destroy or enslave any mortals that the gods seeded the planet with, so they created the dungeon to contain the evil of the world and locked it away. The Gods of Darkness demanded that evil be given its due, so it was designed so that one day the dungeon would be cracked, and the evil would be allowed a chance to seed Muerta again. Against this day, the Titian Breysus was sent to guard the entrance to the prison and teach the mortal races the purpose and history of its origin, and remind the peoples of the world that one day the evil would have the opportunity to emerge.

Thus the mortal races chose among them two champions of each race and kept them ready to enter the dungeon and slay the evil within when that day came. Decades aged to centuries, and centuries to millennia. Though Breysus remained to educate the mortals he was no longer taken seriously. Heroes, longing for epic deeds and action no longer awaited the opening of the Dungeon. The races forgot that the Titian and his charge still existed and no longer prepared for that fateful day, until it arrived. 

An earthquake opened the prison, and though no supernatural evil had stalked the land since before the gods imprisoned them evil still flourished upon Muerta as we mortals are so good at creating our own horrors. Wars ravaged the lands, heroes perished in conflicts and the earthquake was not understood for what it was. Only a few esoteric priests of the various lands realized what was happening, and they sent representatives (the PC's) to seek out Breysus and ask him what the earthquake meant. That is where the game starts... the players will enter the dungeon and will seek to eradicate the evil within to spare the world of Muerta its horrors,

Here are the house rules I have devised. They are open for discussion with my group since we haven't started the game yet.

Game Rules Set: 3.0 with Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed

Rules Modifications: 

1) Druids and Druid subclasses (Greenbond) are not allowed (they would be all but worthless in the Dungeon). 
2) Wizards can add spells to their spell books with more ease in this game. (You might find a sorcerer easier to play though.)
3) Feats that allow magical item creation are not available. 
4) Due to the confined nature of a dungeon, spells that inhibit movement are overpowered, thus spells such as grease, web, and entangle are not available. 
5) All players will start the game with two characters (with only one in play).The races in Arcana Unearthed ARE available for play, but no race may be played that has a racial level modifier (tieflings, drow, etc), but you could play an Aracana Unearthed Giant for example.
6) No more than two representatives of each race may be created including Humans. This means that since there will be twelve characters (two each) only two of those twelve may be human, elves, dwarves, Giants, Litorian, etc.
7) Six races will be represented as the major races of the fantasy world you are playing in. You as players get to choose which races you want to have in the game which are going to represent the major races of this world. For example if Trey wants to play a half orc, and Marco wants to play a Giant then someone else is going to have a play a half orc and Giant respectively and those will represent two of the six major world races.
8) Your two characters may not share the same character race or base character class. There can be six fighters in the group if you want, but you may only play one fighter between your two characters. Keep in mind that each of the path books contains new BASE character classes as well as those in the Arcane Unearthed and Players Handbook that are available for play.
9) Character stat generation will be your choice of one of two methods (and you can generate stats of each of your characters differently). You may assign stats using 32 pts to generate your scores as per pg. 20 of the DMG. Or you may roll two sets using 4d6 per stat, choose the set you want to use and assign the scores as you like.
10) There will be no resurrection magic available in the game as spells that characters can memorize. Instead raise magic might be discovered as you adventure but will be incredibly rare. Being raised from the dead no longer carries a level loss penalty, but requires the sacrifice of magical items equal to 2000gp per level of the character raised. 
11) We will be using a GP standard for this game.
12) Metamagic feats no longer incur a casting level penalty; instead any metamagic feat can be used at will 4x per day minus the level penalty it would normally incur (with a minimum of one use per day). Thus Heighten Spell which normally adds 2 levels to a spell could be used twice a day, whereas Quicken Spell which would normally add 4 levels to a spell may only be used once per day.
13) Banish Magical Might is not available in this game as a feat.
14) For ease of play, Clerics worship either the Good Gods, Neutral Gods, or Evil Gods, not specific deities. You MAY play evil characters in this game, but I advise you to consider that choice carefully. You may choose any two domains you would like to have EXCEPT the moral domains. Good Clerics may only choose good, Neutral may only choose Neutral, and Evil Clerics have access only to the Evil moral domain.
15) Each major race has two champions to send into the Dungeon, when a champion dies; unless he is resurrected he is dead. At that time the player may choose to activate a mystical connection to his other character and bring him into the game. Doing so renders the first character completely and irrevocably dead, even if at a later time he could have been resurrected. If both characters are lost in the game that player will have to find a character to play that is already in the Dungeon, which probably means he will be playing a monster! The mystical link between a players two characters serves to keep them at the same level, when one character levels up they both do.
16) Experience points will not be awarded in this game. Instead there are areas in the dungeon that you must uncover (some are secret and hidden so search carefully). When one of these areas is found and activated every person in the party will instantly level.
17) Every character enters the Dungeon equipped with two potions chosen from the minor potion list, and a masterwork item of choice.
18) If at any point every character from the original 12 is dead, the game is lost and the world will be plunged into darkness and evil for many millennia.

Thank you for your patience with this long post.

Twofalls


----------



## twofalls

Hello EnGame posters, this is my first post to this forum, I've read this huge thread and am pleased to participate in your discussion.

To Jim Pinto, I understand the desire to get feedback on a labor of love, and I congratulate you on an extraordinary product. The maps are beautiful, the book is heavy and pleasing to the hand, and after reading section A I'm immensely impressed and delighted with the high standards set for its content. Using the dire template on low level creatures to make them different and interesting to experienced players was very creative, and the story is quite engaging in the simple way that makes for highly successful role-playing. In one of your posts you had requested game info on the book and as I'm going to run the game I will post info here as I can about our sessions.

I've been running games for 26 years, and for the past eighteen months I've been running a 3.0 campaign which I'm bringing to burn out on. My players (friends who have been playing in my games for the past two decades) purchased this book for me and I'm going to start running it this weekend as it has rekindled the fires of my imagination. I've expanded a little on the introduction and posted some rules to my group mail list that I will repost here and I invite commentary or suggestions from those on the forum.

I am going to run with the idea that the Gods created the Dungeon, and that its been recently opened by an earthquake. In my version the gods searched for a world to create mortals upon and found Muerta. Already living upon Muerta were creatures of evil nature that would easily destroy or enslave any mortals that the gods seeded the planet with, so they created the dungeon to contain the evil of the world and locked it away. The Gods of Darkness demanded that evil be given its due, so it was designed so that one day the dungeon would be cracked, and the evil would be allowed a chance to seed Muerta again. Against this day, the Titian Breysus was sent to guard the entrance to the prison and teach the mortal races the purpose and history of its origin, and remind the peoples of the world that one day the evil would have the opportunity to emerge.

Thus the mortal races chose among them two champions of each race and kept them ready to enter the dungeon and slay the evil within when that day came. Decades aged to centuries, and centuries to millennia. Though Breysus remained to educate the mortals he was no longer taken seriously. Heroes, longing for epic deeds and action no longer awaited the opening of the Dungeon. The races forgot that the Titian and his charge still existed and no longer prepared for that fateful day, until it arrived. 

An earthquake opened the prison, and though no supernatural evil had stalked the land since before the gods imprisoned them evil still flourished upon Muerta as we mortals are so good at creating our own horrors. Wars ravaged the lands, heroes perished in conflicts and the earthquake was not understood for what it was. Only a few esoteric priests of the various lands realized what was happening, and they sent representatives (the PC's) to seek out Breysus and ask him what the earthquake meant. That is where the game starts... the players will enter the dungeon and will seek to eradicate the evil within to spare the world of Muerta its horrors,

Here are the house rules I have devised. They are open for discussion with my group since we haven't started the game yet.

Game Rules Set: 3.0 with Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed

Rules Modifications: 

1) Druids and Druid subclasses (Greenbond) are not allowed (they would be all but worthless in the Dungeon). 
2) Wizards can add spells to their spell books with more ease in this game. (You might find a sorcerer easier to play though.)
3) Feats that allow magical item creation are not available. 
4) Due to the confined nature of a dungeon, spells that inhibit movement are overpowered, thus spells such as grease, web, and entangle are not available. 
5) All players will start the game with two characters (with only one in play).The races in Arcana Unearthed ARE available for play, but no race may be played that has a racial level modifier (tieflings, drow, etc), but you could play an Aracana Unearthed Giant for example.
6) No more than two representatives of each race may be created including Humans. This means that since there will be twelve characters (two each) only two of those twelve may be human, elves, dwarves, Giants, Litorian, etc.
7) Six races will be represented as the major races of the fantasy world you are playing in. You as players get to choose which races you want to have in the game which are going to represent the major races of this world. For example if Trey wants to play a half orc, and Marco wants to play a Giant then someone else is going to have a play a half orc and Giant respectively and those will represent two of the six major world races.
8) Your two characters may not share the same character race or base character class. There can be six fighters in the group if you want, but you may only play one fighter between your two characters. Keep in mind that each of the path books contains new BASE character classes as well as those in the Arcane Unearthed and Players Handbook that are available for play.
9) Character stat generation will be your choice of one of two methods (and you can generate stats of each of your characters differently). You may assign stats using 32 pts to generate your scores as per pg. 20 of the DMG. Or you may roll two sets using 4d6 per stat, choose the set you want to use and assign the scores as you like.
10) There will be no resurrection magic available in the game as spells that characters can memorize. Instead raise magic might be discovered as you adventure but will be incredibly rare. Being raised from the dead no longer carries a level loss penalty, but requires the sacrifice of magical items equal to 2000gp per level of the character raised. 
11) We will be using a GP standard for this game.
12) Metamagic feats no longer incur a casting level penalty; instead any metamagic feat can be used at will 4x per day minus the level penalty it would normally incur (with a minimum of one use per day). Thus Heighten Spell which normally adds 2 levels to a spell could be used twice a day, whereas Quicken Spell which would normally add 4 levels to a spell may only be used once per day.
13) Banish Magical Might is not available in this game as a feat.
14) For ease of play, Clerics worship either the Good Gods, Neutral Gods, or Evil Gods, not specific deities. You MAY play evil characters in this game, but I advise you to consider that choice carefully. You may choose any two domains you would like to have EXCEPT the moral domains. Good Clerics may only choose good, Neutral may only choose Neutral, and Evil Clerics have access only to the Evil moral domain.
15) Each major race has two champions to send into the Dungeon, when a champion dies; unless he is resurrected he is dead. At that time the player may choose to activate a mystical connection to his other character and bring him into the game. Doing so renders the first character completely and irrevocably dead, even if at a later time he could have been resurrected. If both characters are lost in the game that player will have to find a character to play that is already in the Dungeon, which probably means he will be playing a monster! The mystical link between a players two characters serves to keep them at the same level, when one character levels up they both do.
16) Experience points will not be awarded in this game. Instead there are areas in the dungeon that you must uncover (some are secret and hidden so search carefully). When one of these areas is found and activated every person in the party will instantly level.
17) Every character enters the Dungeon equipped with two potions chosen from the minor potion list, and a masterwork item of choice.
18) If at any point every character from the original 12 is dead, the game is lost and the world will be plunged into darkness and evil for many millennia.

Thank you for your patience with this long post.

Twofalls


----------



## twofalls

I apologize for the double post, particuarly since it was so long. My browser didn't give me any indication that it posted the first time so I posted it again. Oops!


----------



## jim pinto

that seems slightly over complicated for character creation,
but your ideas are sound

i would recommend using mercenaries and magic (by aeg) instead of
arcana unearthed, but that's because i like prefer our classes
and i think they mesh better with the book

but you can use really anything... except psionicists and gnomes.... gah!



i like your level advancement system, though
and i like how you've incorporated the background
of the dungeon into your own world. this was exactly
why we made the background so generic

i recommend you read Region O before you start your
campaign as the finale might affect your vision of "2 of everything"


----------



## Demon Gnome

> 2) Wizards can add spells to their spell books with more ease in this game. (You might find a sorcerer easier to play though.)




This wasn't gonna be much of a problem for me as it is as my games I generally allowed wizards to automatically learn 2 new spells each time they level to represent general nightly study they do along the way.



> 16) Experience points will not be awarded in this game. Instead there are areas in the dungeon that you must uncover (some are secret and hidden so search carefully). When one of these areas is found and activated every person in the party will instantly level.




I suggested this and my wife immediately freaked out, basically saying she wouldn't want to play if there was no 'exp' along the way. Basically she said, 'what's the point?'



> but you can use really anything... except psionicists and gnomes.... gah!




One of the players will be playing something psionics related, he always does. =P Seriously I think the new Expanded Psionics Handbook has been their best attempt at psionics to date. As for gnomes, I personally love gnomes (and have no clue why everyone has such animosity towards them) and rarely play anything else.


----------



## twofalls

jim pinto said:
			
		

> that seems slightly over complicated for character creation,
> but your ideas are sound
> 
> i would recommend using mercenaries and magic (by aeg) instead of
> arcana unearthed, but that's because i like prefer our classes
> and i think they mesh better with the book




Jim - I'm going to assume this wasn't just an AEG plug.  My collection of 3.0 books is absurdly collosal, and I'm not going to purchase any more save what the Sanguine Senintels buys for me (my game club). I purchased all the Wizards splatbooks, the Path Splatbooks from Fantasy Flight Games, and Monte Cooks books and thats quite enough of that kind of material. 

I read the intoduction to the O Region and didn't find anything there to spoil the concept of two characters of each race. Can you be more specific about what you thought might throw a crimp into the idea?

I see nothing wrong with psions or gnomes... though I run gnomes not as whimsical creatures but more like Vulcans from Star Trek (minus the phasers and stunning hands)  . 

Demon Gnome - I simply explained it to my players why it was nessesary to moderate level advancement if we are entering this with the idea of attempting the whole book. They trust me to run a good game and that makes it easier. I naturally assume that your wife trusts you in the same way so pehaps you can try that approach, or even have her read that section in the book that explains why its needed.


----------



## philreed

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> Just finished reading through Region A. All I can say so far is, Awesome Job!  So worth the money as long as the rest measure up.




I'm fairly certain that's the section Michael Hammes wrote. 

Jim, I haven't seen the book yet but is there a listing of authors that corresponds to their work somewhere in the book? Could you post such a list here? I recall that there were many, many authors on the project and I haven't seen much mention of that anywhere.


----------



## Ashran

Personnaly I think i'll dm this dungeon with ghestalt characters (from Unearthed Arcana by Wizards).

Why? Because I have only three players, and I don't want to make npc's for them to accompany if there is a missing character class like a priest or a thief... That way if they do it correctly they have a chance to have all important character classes present.

I also plan of letting them start at level 3, toughening maybe the first encounters, or maybe letting them like that to lure them to a false sentiment of ease and tranquillity... just to have all hell break loose later on.


----------



## Jim Hague

philreed said:
			
		

> I'm fairly certain that's the section Michael Hammes wrote.
> 
> Jim, I haven't seen the book yet but is there a listing of authors that corresponds to their work somewhere in the book? Could you post such a list here? I recall that there were many, many authors on the project and I haven't seen much mention of that anywhere.




Which Jim?  Jim (me) or jim (pinto)?  Too many Jims! 

FWIW, I (Mark Carroll) wrote up Regions I&M, and threw in some nifty stuff with Region H (I _think_ it was H.  The one with the elves and treant), mostly NPCs and a couple-three magic items, though the lion's share of that work was done by Jennifer Baughman.


----------



## jim pinto

philreed said:
			
		

> I'm fairly certain that's the section Michael Hammes wrote.
> 
> Jim, I haven't seen the book yet but is there a listing of authors that corresponds to their work somewhere in the book? Could you post such a list here? I recall that there were many, many authors on the project and I haven't seen much mention of that anywhere.




the mention of the 12 authors who worked on the book
are IN the book.  when you buy your copy mr. reed, you'll
see that


----------



## philreed

jim pinto said:
			
		

> the mention of the 12 authors who worked on the book
> are IN the book.  when you buy your copy mr. reed, you'll
> see that




I haven't even seen a copy yet. When I do, I'll look through it and make a decision on whether or not to purchase. I'm just curious about how many people ended up working on the project.


----------



## jim pinto

philreed said:
			
		

> I haven't even seen a copy yet. When I do, I'll look through it and make a decision on whether or not to purchase. I'm just curious about how many people ended up working on the project.




i'm just busting your chops, phil

in the end, there were 12 writers (plus me)
plus 4 editors and some spot writing from
various people

i spent 5 solid months editing and rewriting the book
but all of this is covered in the designer notes

and you need to buy your copy today


----------



## philreed

jim pinto said:
			
		

> i'm just busting your chops, phil
> 
> in the end, there were 12 writers (plus me)
> plus 4 editors and some spot writing from
> various people




I get that all the time. 

Anyway, it's a big job -- even with 15+ people working on it. Good luck with it!

And I'll look one over as soon as I see a copy. I wonder if the local store is just ignoring its existence.


----------



## DM_Jeff

*plugs?*

>>i would recommend using mercenaries and magic (by aeg) instead of
arcana unearthed, but that's because i like prefer our classes
and i think they mesh better with the book

>>Jim - I'm going to assume this wasn't just an AEG plug.  My collection of 3.0 books is absurdly collosal, and I'm not going to purchase any more save what the Sanguine Senintels buys for me (my game club). 

Probably,    but really because Mercenaries was the first "Unearthed Arcana/Arcana Unearthed" book of variants and alternates for the 3.0 game and it works itself into any game with little or no DM fiddling.

-DM Jeff
(co-author of section O in WLD)


----------



## Chiefarchon

Hi Everyone

Got my Copy of the WLD Wednesday (UK Time).

My Group have been looking forward to this one. We have been roleplaying as a group for around 14 years and were getting a little jaded.

The first thing that came from WLD was that people actually wanted to start again with 1st level characters for this one - which surprised me!

Anyway:
We love the idea and will be playing it as a full campaign. we will be using the Eberron setting and placing the dungeon on Xendric.

Being Eberron based charcters which include a Warforged, a Shifter, and an Artificer, do you have any pointers as regards running the dungeon for my group.

lots of love Gemma


----------



## jim pinto

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> >>i would recommend using mercenaries and magic (by aeg) instead of
> arcana unearthed, but that's because i like prefer our classes
> and i think they mesh better with the book
> 
> >>Jim - I'm going to assume this wasn't just an AEG plug.  My collection of 3.0 books is absurdly collosal, and I'm not going to purchase any more save what the Sanguine Senintels buys for me (my game club).
> 
> Probably,    but really because Mercenaries was the first "Unearthed Arcana/Arcana Unearthed" book of variants and alternates for the 3.0 game and it works itself into any game with little or no DM fiddling.
> 
> -DM Jeff
> (co-author of section O in WLD)




thanks jeff.

because mercenaries was my first LARGE project (9 months to coordinate 300 pages), it fits nicely into just about any project i've managed. since i see dungeons and dragons a certain way, all of my books first together like a mongolian bbq.

and i know ibach really likes it because he says so on his website


----------



## jim pinto

Chiefarchon said:
			
		

> Hi Everyone
> 
> Got my Copy of the WLD Wednesday (UK Time).
> 
> My Group have been looking forward to this one. We have been roleplaying as a group for around 14 years and were getting a little jaded.
> 
> The first thing that came from WLD was that people actually wanted to start again with 1st level characters for this one - which surprised me!
> 
> Anyway:
> We love the idea and will be playing it as a full campaign. we will be using the Eberron setting and placing the dungeon on Xendric.
> 
> Being Eberron based charcters which include a Warforged, a Shifter, and an Artificer, do you have any pointers as regards running the dungeon for my group.
> 
> lots of love Gemma




i'm not familiar with eberron on any level, so i can't help you there

but an artificer (assuming they do what the name says they do)
better bring all his tools with him. (while there are a few forges
in the dungeon, no one was kind enough to leave behind tongs).
i also recommend giving each character an extra 500 gp.
and 3 free potions of cure light wounds would also be nice.

make sure one of them can find and disable traps, otherwise
remove all but the most important traps from the dungeon.

[i assume a warforged is a fighter
and a shifter is a druid/wizard thing?!?!]

other than that, 3 PCs are going to have trouble around
room 30 of region A if they aren't careful. don't be afraid to
give our a bonus feat for each either.

so long as they can survive the first few rooms, i think they'll
have a great time


----------



## 2WS-Steve

philreed said:
			
		

> I get that all the time.
> 
> Anyway, it's a big job -- even with 15+ people working on it. Good luck with it!
> 
> And I'll look one over as soon as I see a copy. I wonder if the local store is just ignoring its existence.




Aren't you around Austin, Phil? The Dragon's Lair down here in San Antonio had a copy (er, until I bought it) and said they were doing fairly brisk business so I imagine the D-Lair up around Austin would also carry them.

Anyway, congrats to the AEG team that put this together. It's an impressive work. I'm pleased to see that it presents the players with a number of alternatives, that individual sections all have their own dynamic, and that things generally make sense in a way that promotes the fun of exploration.

Possible Spoiler here: 



Spoiler



And who'da thunk that the first encounter in the world's largest place to hack and slash would be a roleplaying encounter!


----------



## Chiefarchon

*A33: Ambush*

I hope that this is the right place to post this one?

In the WLD page 34 section "A33. Ambush" mentions Room A31 in the following ways:

"The Remaining two (Trogladites) are hiding in the doorways of rooms A31 and A32 respectively, keeping an eye on the hallway from there and are much harder to spot"

Section A31 is nowhere new the hallway being spoken of (that being the hallway marked by the two "B" symbols. 

I think that when rooms A31 and A32 are mentioned in the text they are speaking of rooms A33 and A34. 

Is this correct?

PS:
   I should say that inspite of little things like this it truly is an awsome dungoen and I can't wait for the players to get to section N, however that's about two years away I suppose


----------



## philreed

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> Aren't you around Austin, Phil? The Dragon's Lair down here in San Antonio had a copy (er, until I bought it) and said they were doing fairly brisk business so I imagine the D-Lair up around Austin would also carry them.




I'll check again tomorrow.


----------



## sasnak

Chiefarchon said:
			
		

> I hope that this is the right place to post this one?
> 
> <snip>...
> 
> I think that when rooms A31 and A32 are mentioned in the text they are speaking of rooms A33 and A34.
> 
> Is this correct?
> 
> <snip>...




Mmmm, I hope they are going to have a separate web site for the errata    - Just got my copy and guess what, it's now located underneath Mount Waterdeep - That has jsut saved me sooooo much time converting undermountain.... he he heeeee


----------



## Jim Hague

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> Aren't you around Austin, Phil? The Dragon's Lair down here in San Antonio had a copy (er, until I bought it) and said they were doing fairly brisk business so I imagine the D-Lair up around Austin would also carry them.




If not the Austin Lair, then the Round Rock one, certainly.  Or if you're really cheap, phil, you can have one of my spares when they come in.


----------



## Chiefarchon

jim pinto said:
			
		

> i'm not familiar with eberron on any level, so i can't help you there
> 
> but an artificer (assuming they do what the name says they do)
> better bring all his tools with him. (while there are a few forges
> in the dungeon, no one was kind enough to leave behind tongs).
> i also recommend giving each character an extra 500 gp.
> and 3 free potions of cure light wounds would also be nice.
> 
> make sure one of them can find and disable traps, otherwise
> remove all but the most important traps from the dungeon.
> 
> [i assume a warforged is a fighter
> and a shifter is a druid/wizard thing?!?!]
> 
> other than that, 3 PCs are going to have trouble around
> room 30 of region A if they aren't careful. don't be afraid to
> give our a bonus feat for each either.
> 
> so long as they can survive the first few rooms, i think they'll
> have a great time




Thanks for replying so quickly i'm impressed and gratefull 

I have 8 players and so far they are playing the following:

1) a Rogue.
2) a Priest of a sun god.
3) a shifter - an Eberron character with limited shape changing ability.
4) a Warforged - an Eberron half man half machine!
5) an artificer - a character specialising in item creation.

I'll know what the others are playing by sunday.

I had to metagame with the Artificer's player because he would have hated it otherwise, so he braught tools with him. He'll have to rely of whatever forges he finds whilst he's in the dungeon.

I took your advice from an earlier post and have given them each 750 gold as part of a deel with a merchant who has put the money up front in expectation of 30% cash value from any treasure they find.

They are travelling partly on the order of the priest's church in order to stop Longtail before he does something blasphemous, (tooooooooo late!). The church have said little; meaning that the characters are going in blind. Whilst chasing Longtail they learnt that he has been gathering cronies since he landed in Xendric, they also found that Longtail had murdered the guide that he hired to take him to the cave mouth, the guide who was murdered was related to the little chap that my players hired to take them to the cave. (now its personal as far as the players are concerned) nwa ha ha.

The last game ended in room A1 of the WLD.

The players who haven't started playing yet will have to catch up.


----------



## Chiefarchon

sasnak said:
			
		

> Mmmm, I hope they are going to have a separate web site for the errata    - Just got my copy and guess what, it's now located underneath Mount Waterdeep - That has jsut saved me sooooo much time converting undermountain.... he he heeeee




Like your style


----------



## jim pinto

Chiefarchon said:
			
		

> I hope that this is the right place to post this one?
> 
> In the WLD page 34 section "A33. Ambush" mentions Room A31 in the following ways:
> 
> "The Remaining two (Trogladites) are hiding in the doorways of rooms A31 and A32 respectively, keeping an eye on the hallway from there and are much harder to spot"
> 
> Section A31 is nowhere new the hallway being spoken of (that being the hallway marked by the two "B" symbols.
> 
> I think that when rooms A31 and A32 are mentioned in the text they are speaking of rooms A33 and A34.
> 
> Is this correct?
> 
> PS:
> I should say that inspite of little things like this it truly is an awsome dungoen and I can't wait for the players to get to section N, however that's about two years away I suppose




you've got it... sorry for the typo... i was waiting for the first one


----------



## jim pinto

sasnak said:
			
		

> Mmmm, I hope they are going to have a separate web site for the errata    - Just got my copy and guess what, it's now located underneath Mount Waterdeep - That has jsut saved me sooooo much time converting undermountain.... he he heeeee




davemage, flip to page 837


----------



## jim pinto

Chiefarchon said:
			
		

> Thanks for replying so quickly i'm impressed and gratefull
> 
> I have 8 players and so far they are playing the following:




8... ?!!?

holy... you're going to have to double every encounter

and probably ignore the rule about the doors to room A2

btw... that sounds like an awesome introductory session.

where are you playing? can i join? i have a half-orc charlatan
whose looking for a better group to join?


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> davemage, flip to page 837




No - that wasn't me.  That was *sasnak*, who uses the same Gandalf avatar (picture).

I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive from the folks in the amazon...


----------



## MerakSpielman

jim pinto said:
			
		

> 8... ?!!?
> 
> holy... you're going to have to double every encounter



That really shouldn't be necessary. The initial level or two will be easy, but remember they're getting half as much xp as the members of a party of 4... eventually, they'll be lower level than that for which the encounters are designed, and the CRs will equalize again.


----------



## mroberon1972

I got it! I got it!

My precious!

Were going to kill them, arn't we, my Precious?

Were going to dump them in, naked and weaponless in the front door.  We will make them claw and bite.  Yesssss...

<Ahem>

Anyway, I like the idea of a big pit with a huge iron door that the PCs are thrown into.  It just sounds right.

Throw them in with a loincloth, the rope they were tied with, and a kick in the rear.

Hah!

Talk about a game you could be proud of...


Later,
John


----------



## jim pinto

mroberon1972 said:
			
		

> I got it! I got it!
> 
> My precious!
> 
> Were going to kill them, arn't we, my Precious?
> 
> Were going to dump them in, naked and weaponless in the front door.  We will make them claw and bite.  Yesssss...
> 
> <Ahem>
> 
> Anyway, I like the idea of a big pit with a huge iron door that the PCs are thrown into.  It just sounds right.
> 
> Throw them in with a loincloth, the rope they were tied with, and a kick in the rear.
> 
> Hah!
> 
> Talk about a game you could be proud of...
> 
> 
> Later,
> John




oh man. what a great idea.
since the second room is a no so difficult CR 1 orc encounter,
the PCs could overcome these guys with their barehands, and
slowly collect gear and weapons from the outlying rooms.


----------



## Chiefarchon

jim pinto said:
			
		

> 8... ?!!?
> 
> holy... you're going to have to double every encounter
> 
> and probably ignore the rule about the doors to room A2
> 
> btw... that sounds like an awesome introductory session.
> 
> where are you playing? can i join? i have a half-orc charlatan
> whose looking for a better group to join?




Bromley in Kent, United Kingdom  :-(  

I know you don't have to say it, You can't make it. It's OK we'll get over it just give us a little time that's all.

<< sob >>


----------



## Chiefarchon

Hi, it's me again 

When you get a moment could you look at room "A44. Krenshar Stables"

This room speaks of a secret door between it and room 108 I think? the rooms are not next to each other and neither has a secret door. 

I can't work out which room it should be refering to, or if in fact I am just missing something?

could you point me in the right direction.

lots of thanks,
Gemma
 

PS

OK it might mean 103?


----------



## jim pinto

Chiefarchon said:
			
		

> Hi, it's me again
> 
> When you get a moment could you look at room "A44. Krenshar Stables"
> 
> This room speaks of a secret door between it and room 108 I think? the rooms are not next to each other and neither has a secret door.
> 
> I can't work out which room it should be refering to, or if in fact I am just missing something?
> 
> could you point me in the right direction.
> 
> lots of thanks,
> Gemma
> 
> 
> PS
> 
> OK it might mean 103?




Room A69 makes reference to the same secret door, which
i believe is 103, not 108.

sorry for any confusion


----------



## jim pinto

posted twice


----------



## mroberon1972

Hey jim pinto,  e-mail me at "thefool at ancient-awakenings.com" later.  I have a gift for you and your guys.  After this monster, you guys deserve it.

Later,
John


----------



## mroberon1972

Oh, by the way:

Were you guys serious about the "World's Biggest City"?  Don't get me wrong, it sounds silly at first, but after a few minutes, it makes sense.  You would never have to buy another city setting again.

As it is, I never have to buy another dungeon again.

Ha!  I win!


----------



## twofalls

jim pinto said:
			
		

> 8... ?!!?
> 
> holy... you're going to have to double every encounter
> 
> and probably ignore the rule about the doors to room A2
> 
> btw... that sounds like an awesome introductory session.
> 
> where are you playing? can i join? i have a half-orc charlatan
> whose looking for a better group to join?




Be careful about simply doubling monsters in encounters. There are some very ugly potential combats in Region A, the nest of 24 Stirges is a real potential party killer... simply doubling the number of monsters in the dungeon setting doesn't nessesarily mean that you suddenly balance the encounter when playing with 8 PC's. If you look at many of the encoutners in the game, there is a potential for unintentionally killing the group (or forcing yourself into unsightly acrobatics to avoid a TPK) if you play the monsters intelligently. To give due credit to the designers, they tell you this in each the encounter desriptions that are truely risky. The fight against the Kobald wizard could seriously maim a group, doubling them (two wizards and bunches of missile warriors) would wipe the floor with most lower level parties.

I've been running a 7 player group in 3.0 for a couple years and have found that really there is no substitute for simply knowing your players and what thier characters are capable of. The way it was done in second ed. ;-) The CR system is nice, but its not perfect... not even close really.


----------



## Chiefarchon

Hi Jim

Will you (AEG) be running the WLD at UK Gencon this October?

If not Please contact me as I have run games there before for the last 3 years on behalf of White Wolf via a distributor called Esdevium. 

I have the following Master Maze boxed sets:
   Cavern Set X1
   Room and Passage Set X1
   Delux Room Set X1
   Advanced Builders Set X1
   Traps Set X1

I Will be purchasing a couple more boxes at this comming Gencon.

I might be interrested in running a game on your (AEGs) Behalf. If this is of any interrest at all to you, please contact me on gemma.charles@virgin.net

Cheers


----------



## spectre72

*If anyone is interested*

I wrote Amazon Customer Service about my order not shipping and this was their response....

"Thank you for writing to us at Amazon.com. 

Sometimes, unexpected fluctuations in supply can add time to our 
original availability estimate.  We have learned that the 
book "World's Largest Dungeon" is now back-ordered, and our supplier 
has not been able to let us know exactly when they expect to have 
more in stock.  I apologize that you were not notified sooner of this 
change in availability. "

And it goes on to apoligize for my inconvenience..

Just thought everyone who had ordered from them should know.

Scott


----------



## DaveMage

I've learned with amazon that 2-6 weeks after general release is when you can expect to receive products.


----------



## mroberon1972

I got mine the first day me and my wife saw it.

God's of gaming bless her sweet little heart.

She (and one of my players gave me a loan) chipped in to buy it for me.  As it is, they now demand I walk them through a good, old fashioned, dungeon crawl.

I'm so happy.  Now I can give them the gaming goodness they want, and still have time to write my own stuff.

I can't lose!

Later,
John

PS: jim pinto, don't forget to e-mail me.  I was serious about the gift thing...


----------



## Gorilla726

I know this has probably been answered, but I can't read through 29 pages of posts... Lol. Does anyone know when The World's Largest Dungeon might be coming out? Thanks!

Gorilla


----------



## mroberon1972

Gorilla726 said:
			
		

> I know this has probably been answered, but I can't read through 29 pages of posts... Lol. Does anyone know when The World's Largest Dungeon might be coming out? Thanks!
> 
> Gorilla




 :\ 

It's out.


----------



## nerfherder

I saw a copy in my local store today.  So, if it's out in the UK, I'm sure it's been out for a few days/weeks in the US.

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Nikchick

jim pinto said:
			
		

> AEG has not bundled the dungeon with any other books or products,
> but it seems like a smart call for a distributor to throw in some useful
> slow-moving goodies in a bundle for his better stores. Charge $5 more
> for $20 worth of product and everybody wins.





At least one distributor made a special purchase of Character Record Folios from us with the intention of creating a bundle for their retail customers (and they mentioned having minis and something else as part of the bundle as well, so it's probably the same one I'm thinking of).

I thought it was a pretty clever plan myself, though they did buy up most of the rest of the year's stock of folios, which means we're going to have to start the sixth reprint earlier than I'd planned.  Not a bad problem to have.


----------



## thundershot

When my WLD arrives (and I have 5 players readying new characters, all different classes), I plan on using Advanced Bestiary to spruce it up... OH WAIT, IT'S NOT OUT YET!  Just getting a jab in, Nicole... I'm really excited about the Advanced books...



Chris


----------



## Demon Gnome

Ran our first game this past Friday. Overall it went well. Initially the players started to get bored with the many 'empty' (different descriptions for each but still essentially empty) rooms, though towards the end of the night they started to enjoy it more once more started going on, namely the first rat swarm, and before that the ogre (who the dwarves attacked on sight, like the trio of orcs at the beginning).

Line of the night (after dealing with the resetting acid arrow trap):

"They can't have them everywhere."


----------



## twofalls

*First Play*

Hey Folks, 

The Sangine Sentinels had thier first go at the WLD this past weekend. Into the Dungeon went a Paladin, Sorcerer, Rouge, Cleric, Champion, and a Mageblade. To thier credit they are a group that prefers diplomacy to hack, so I anticipate them getting into the politics of the dungeon, such as they are.

They were irritated by the attitude of the orcs in room two but left them alone, and the apearance of the fiendish shadwomantles and rats have disturbed them all, particuarly the Paladin. They didn't get far as the first part of the session was given over to character creation... the last encounter of that session they encountered on of my personalized random monsters (an Alley Reaper from Creature Collection 1). The cleric managed to drive it off after three turning attempts while everyone else ineffectually tried to fight it. 

We've come up with a prolbem however. Mapping is a pain in the butt as it takes up a lot of time and slows the game to a crawl. I remedied that by telling them that for this crawl thier characters have perfect recall, so long as they have been somewhere they can recgonize it and recall where they are in relationship with the rest of the dungeon. However in practice this has fallen flat as the players themselves don't recall or understand where they are.  

This group is anal about leaving no stones unturned or secret door undiscovered! it has been proposed that we create photocopies of the maps to slowly reveal as the dungeon is explored. However there are symbols on the maps that show the door locations and some trap locations as well as other oddities. Does anyone have either a solution to this, other than photocopy...white out, then photo copy again (the time involved makes me cringe)? One idea was to take a digital photo and doctor it in photoshop to remove the symbols, then print it out... however I'm no wiz at photoshop and for obvious reasons having a player do it is rather self defeating.


----------



## haiiro

In response to seeing twofalls's and Demon Gnome's posts here about starting up WLD games, I created a separate thread to discuss that topic. It seems like it might get lost here, and I'm really curious about it! 

If this sounds like a good idea to you, here's a link to that  discussion thread.


----------



## Jim Hague

twofalls said:
			
		

> Hey Folks,
> 
> The Sangine Sentinels had thier first go at the WLD this past weekend. Into the Dungeon went a Paladin, Sorcerer, Rouge, Cleric, Champion, and a Mageblade. To thier credit they are a group that prefers diplomacy to hack, so I anticipate them getting into the politics of the dungeon, such as they are.
> 
> They were irritated by the attitude of the orcs in room two but left them alone, and the apearance of the fiendish shadwomantles and rats have disturbed them all, particuarly the Paladin. They didn't get far as the first part of the session was given over to character creation... the last encounter of that session they encountered on of my personalized random monsters (an Alley Reaper from Creature Collection 1). The cleric managed to drive it off after three turning attempts while everyone else ineffectually tried to fight it.
> 
> We've come up with a prolbem however. Mapping is a pain in the butt as it takes up a lot of time and slows the game to a crawl. I remedied that by telling them that for this crawl thier characters have perfect recall, so long as they have been somewhere they can recgonize it and recall where they are in relationship with the rest of the dungeon. However in practice this has fallen flat as the players themselves don't recall or understand where they are.
> 
> This group is anal about leaving no stones unturned or secret door undiscovered! it has been proposed that we create photocopies of the maps to slowly reveal as the dungeon is explored. However there are symbols on the maps that show the door locations and some trap locations as well as other oddities. Does anyone have either a solution to this, other than photocopy...white out, then photo copy again (the time involved makes me cringe)? One idea was to take a digital photo and doctor it in photoshop to remove the symbols, then print it out... however I'm no wiz at photoshop and for obvious reasons having a player do it is rather self defeating.




I'll post here when I get my comp copy from AEG.  Send me an email at mcarroll at protocolzeo dot com, and I might be able to persuade someone I know who's good with Photoshop to erase and edit some of those maps for you, then scan them in to make available as files for DMs who want their players to have maps...


----------



## The Forsaken One

Jim, I'd worship you as my god.... for a week orso.


----------



## Jim Hague

The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> Jim, I'd worship you as my god.... for a week orso.




Nah, just send money. 

Incidentally, over on RPG.net (stifle your groans, there's actually productive discussion going on there right now) there's talk of working up a fan-produced index for the WLD.  jim pinto has offered to convert any such effort to PDF and post it in Alderac's site.  Just FYI.


----------



## Sir Elton

Is this thread still alive!?!!?!


----------



## Ozmar

> We've come up with a prolbem however. Mapping is a pain in the butt as it takes up a lot of time and slows the game to a crawl. I remedied that by telling them that for this crawl thier characters have perfect recall, so long as they have been somewhere they can recgonize it and recall where they are in relationship with the rest of the dungeon. However in practice this has fallen flat as the players themselves don't recall or understand where they are.




Have you considered using graph paper?

Here's how we do it. We play with Minis, so our GM always writes out the dungeon itself as we explore on one of those wet-erase mats, and a player (usu. me) just sketches out whatever he draws on a sheet of graph paper. I add notes about what we find on the side. It works great and doesn't slow down anything.

Here's another idea that I do in my games. I bought large tablets of 1-inch graph paper from an office supply store. They cost about 10$ for a tablet, and are usually found over by the presentation materials. These are great, b/c the GM can draw on them with anything - crayons, markers, whatever... And you can take notes on them. And they are scaled for Minis. And you can save them and have a (to scale) map of everywhere you've explored!

Enjoy!

Ozmar the Mapper


----------



## DM_Jeff

*PC death issues*

After finishing reading chapter 2 last night, I realized the chances you'll end the dungeon with the same PC you started isn't likely to happen. And it might not always be easy to explain in the traditional fashion how your replacement PC shows up. I was bored at work this morning, so...

Table XX: How to introduce a new character while adventuring in WLD

1	A monster used a poorly worded wish for a slave and got you; you escaped.
2	As you put your replacement mini on the table, explain how everyone sees a huge, celestial hand placing someone through the ceiling.
3	Drank a magic potion and appeared here.
4	If you are playing a monstrous race, you fled from your fellows to start a new life.
5	Read a magic scroll which teleported you here.
6	Stepped into a portal on the outer planes and it landed you here.
7	The party or their foe tries to cast summon monster or summon nature’s ally and gets you instead.
8	Through an ancient family curse, your body vanishes and your next of kin appears in the spot.
9	Was a prisoner captured on the surface and kept down here for amusement.
10	You ______ (stole from, defiled, peed on) a temple of Loki and you woke up here.
11	You are in the next treasure horde the group finds: you were an intelligent magic item who was granted a mortal form as reward for great service to a celestial knight.
12	You are waiting; curled up inside the next ______ (chest, barrel, coffin) the party opens with no memory how you got there.
13	You came down with another adventuring group, you’re the last left.
14	You had way too much to drink at the festival, and woke up here!
15	You have been following the group from the beginning, they just never saw you.
16	You played a prank on a gang of pixies…you don’t remember anything after that.
17	You used to be a ______ (bugbear, gnoll, harpy) and when you died a shaman reincarnated you.
18	You were getting married! You finished saying “I do” and you wound up here!
19	Your clone appears, courtesy of an old lady you saved from a runaway wagon a few years back who was really a wealthy Queen in disguise.
20	Your last group was fighting a ______ (ogre mage, kobold sorcerer, demon binder). They cast a spell and you appeared here.

-DM Jeff
(co-author of section O)


----------



## jim pinto

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> After finishing reading chapter 2 last night, I realized the chances you'll end the dungeon with the same PC you started isn't likely to happen. And it might not always be easy to explain in the traditional fashion how your replacement PC shows up. I was bored at work this morning, so...
> 
> SNIP
> 
> -DM Jeff
> (co-author of section O)




jeff ibach and his charts... god bless you man

(although some of those items need an editor) 

Region B has a lot of traps and jeff is right,
its deadly, but only for completists who must
explore every square foot of tile.

someone on here posted that they played it at
dragoncon and they didn't like the # of traps.

sounds like the DM.

since i wrote Region B, here's my dollar-fifty

cut the damage of each trap in half
make spoting them easy
allow the PCs to get a clue and realize the dungeon
isn't there for their comfort
cut out half the traps and save them for future adventures
allow SPOT checks to find them
develop a SOP (standard operating procedure) that includes
a list of things the group does before EACH room. have their
search and spot checks rolled ahead of time (say 30+ for each
PC) and then cross them off as they're used.

this will save a lot of time

deadly traps are not the fault of the designer,
(although they are his/her brainchild)
but the curse of the DM who must monitor how
well the PCs are doing.

a good rogue is going to find ALL the traps and then
someone is going to say the dungeon was too easy.

role-playing games (unlike video games) require a human
element that must monitor the level of the persons
playing. you as the DM know the best time to drop
another trap on them. you as the DM know the best
time to make a room empty so they can rest.

saying the dungeon is too hard is like saying your
coffee is too hot. give it time and it'll cool down.

and since many of the traps protect something useful
for the PCs, its hardly a stretch for the DM to assume
he can add a few healing potions to the deadlier rooms
that the bugbears and goblins have been unable to get
passed.

anyway.

enough soapboxing. i'm glad to see people playing and
enjoying the product.

game on.

[mr. ibach... you've had the book 2 weeks and you've only
finished one chapter. for shame.]


----------



## Demon Gnome

About the mapping, as a DM a couple things you can use would be a sheet of 1 inch graph paper under a sheet of clear plexiglass (can get at most hardware stores) and dry erase markers. That's what we used for the longest time until a few months ago when I got some Tact-Tiles (http://www.bc-products.net/Index.html) and they've been worth every penny since. As for the players keeping a map of there they've been, I feel that's their responsibility and up to them as to how they want to do it. I know until WLD most of my players didn't map at all, but we have a new guy now who is keeping his own map based off what I draw on the tiles.


----------



## DM_Jeff

*Reading*

>>[mr. ibach... you've had the book 2 weeks and you've only finished one chapter. for shame.]

One word for ya...GenCon (that's one word, right?). Took 5 days out of that for me! I'm reading, I'm reading! It's a lot of text per page!  

-DM Jeff


----------



## twofalls

*Traps!*

Jim gets a big round cookie stuffed with chocolate chips for Region B. I love traps, and couldn't agree more that monitoring what the party can handle is one of the many balls the GM has to keep in the air during the game. I mentioned to the Sanguine Sentinels before we started play that one section of the dungeon has more traps in it than I'd typcially put in design and they groaned in anticipated misery as I have a bit of a reputation for them. There are trapped traps! Woohoo!

The current anticipated resloution is going to be that I will map the game as they play, and update it as we go along when they request it. We discussed photocopying the map, using whiteout to remove the symbols and then creating a second photocopy. However since the space between rooms is dark brown the whiteout areas would stick out like a soar thumb and make it obvious where to check for traps.

As for placing minis on the table, the Sentinels purchased the Fiery Mountian Gold Collection of counters yesteday specifically to use for the dungeon, and I have a huge collection of tiles to use with them.  For $25 I highly recommend the counter set as an inexpensive alternative to a massive minature collection.

As far as finishing the entire dungeon with original characters... HA! Fat chance. I actually made it a goal just to give them something to worry about. Our campaign concept is that the evil will be unleashed upon the unsuspecting world unless the PC's deal with it. Each player gets two PC's that are mystically linked, when one dies he can activate the link to bring in the other if he wishes. Monsters and other Dungeon allies will present themselves during the game as potential allies and replacments for PCless players. If at any time all twelve of the PC's created at the start of the game (this includes the backups) are all dead, the game is over and the players loose. No ressurection maigc is avalible outside of what I personally place in the dungeon, and there is no level loss penalty for raising anymore. I only plan to place one raise potion and one raise scroll in each Region... carefully hidden/guarded of course. 

Jim Hauge - I attempted you at the address you listed but it bounced. It's uncommonly kind of you to make the offer you did and I won't hold you to it, but whatever assistance you can offer in this direction will be greatly appreaciated by myself and future DM's who encounter this issue... THANKS! You could try me at jamesbeadle@sanguinesentinels.com if you have the opportunity.


----------



## Ghost2020

How many entrances to the dungeon?
There's the main entrance right?
Is that it?


----------



## twofalls

Ghost2020 said:
			
		

> How many entrances to the dungeon?
> There's the main entrance right?
> Is that it?





Deeper in this thread is your answer Ghost. My understanding is that one entrance is outlined in the text, however the maps show many other entrance possibilities... just glancing at "Region C" I see three false doors that COULD be entrances...


----------



## jim pinto

twofalls said:
			
		

> Deeper in this thread is your answer Ghost. My understanding is that one entrance is outlined in the text, however the maps show many other entrance possibilities... just glancing at "Region C" I see three false doors that COULD be entrances...




Regions D, H, L, M, N, and O have very obvious entrances/exits
that are up to the DM on how to use. However, twofalls is correct,
the PCs can litterally walk in anywhere.

A secret door or false door that occupants never found opens into
the dungeon, only to close behind the PCs, sealing flush with the wall.

Etc


----------



## DaveMage

Hey jim pinto:

Any truth to the rumor that AEG is working on the World's Largest City?  And if so, are you going to lose as much sleep as you did with the WLD?


----------



## Psion

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Any truth to the rumor that AEG is working on the World's Largest City?  And if so, are you going to lose as much sleep as you did with the WLD?




If it's not true, the ad in the back of WLD is false advertising.


----------



## jim pinto

Psion said:
			
		

> If it's not true, the ad in the back of WLD is false advertising.




curse you and you're ability to read... <shaking fist>


----------



## twofalls

Psion said:
			
		

> If it's not true, the ad in the back of WLD is false advertising.





Damn, I literally hadn't looked in the back of the book and noticed that so concentrated has been my focus on prepping the Region A for my group! WLC eh? Well, if its as good as this Dungeon is, they have a customer in me.


----------



## nekrolog

I'm running our first WLD session this Monday... wish me luck... or rather wish the soon-to-be-TPK'd PC's luck.    

Questions for Jim Pinto (the newly ordained god of the Dungeon domain baby!):

I have 4 pc's starting at 1st level, using 28 points for character creation, all with darkvision (modified Duergar rog1, Lesser Deep Gnome sor1, Half-orc brb1, and a dwarf clr1).  We're planning on running the dungeon from start to finish, but we all know only the insane would make it to the end.

Q: starting wealth, what do you suggest with 4 PC's? I've heard lots of variants, from +500 gp per player to +750 gp per player, to standard starting wealth.  Any official judgement call on that? WWJPD?

Q: I'm considering giving the PC's scrolls of Town Portal (like in Diablo II), good idea or bad? They could only be used to take them to a marketplace for say, half an hour before they automatically return to the dungeon.  This of course gives them time to spend their loot and visit the local Halfling House of Small Pleasures...    After looking at the treasure placed in the dungeon, much of it seems of monetary value only.  It would be a shame to not let the PC's use it.  (on lapdances)

Q: Since we're talking treasure, do you suggest rolling random treasure once in a while, or just going with what's in the book?  I went through region A, added the value of all the treasure given, and it was less than standard for the three levels that the region covers.  I'm also assuming that they won't find all of it anyway.

Q: And here's the curveball... Room B11, Cold Iron.  I'm glad I looked at it before the PC's got there, what is the actual puzzle?  The description is a little light on the details, eh?  Three interconnected iron rings that somehow form a puzzle that can be solved with an Int check or Disable Device?  What's the skinny?  The players are going to want details to try to figure the thing out logically, what should I tell them?

Anyway, after reading this thing like mad over the past few days to get prepared, I'd like to say very, very solid work all around on this project.  The concept, writing, layout, together make a good thing, well, really good.


----------



## twofalls

Heh... solid. It is indeed an excellent piece of work. I have to chuckle becouse I've heard solid used to describe it so many times now that I'm begining to think of placing a copy in the foundation of my house.


----------



## jim pinto

nekrolog said:
			
		

> I'm running our first WLD session this Monday... wish me luck... or rather wish the soon-to-be-TPK'd PC's luck.




luck

Questions for Jim Pinto (the newly ordained god of the Dungeon domain baby!):



			
				nekrolog said:
			
		

> I have 4 pc's starting at 1st level, using 28 points for character creation, all with darkvision (modified Duergar rog1, Lesser Deep Gnome sor1, Half-orc brb1, and a dwarf clr1).  We're planning on running the dungeon from start to finish, but we all know only the insane would make it to the end.




yes. very insane.

[insert swirly eye]



			
				nekrolog said:
			
		

> Q: starting wealth, what do you suggest with 4 PC's? I've heard lots of variants, from +500 gp per player to +750 gp per player, to standard starting wealth.  Any official judgement call on that? WWJPD?




A: 500 gp for a group of underground dwellers is my call



			
				nekrolog said:
			
		

> Q: I'm considering giving the PC's scrolls of Town Portal (like in Diablo II), good idea or bad? They could only be used to take them to a marketplace for say, half an hour before they automatically return to the dungeon.  This of course gives them time to spend their loot and visit the local Halfling House of Small Pleasures...    After looking at the treasure placed in the dungeon, much of it seems of monetary value only.  It would be a shame to not let the PC's use it.  (on lapdances)




A: depends on your game style. i would never allow this,
but i hate diablo... 



			
				nekrolog said:
			
		

> Q: Since we're talking treasure, do you suggest rolling random treasure once in a while, or just going with what's in the book?  I went through region A, added the value of all the treasure given, and it was less than standard for the three levels that the region covers.  I'm also assuming that they won't find all of it anyway.




A: sure. we kept the treasure down on purpose, because of
the number of encounters. but if you want to make 10 additional
rolls per region, or add potions, it won't hurt anything



			
				nekrolog said:
			
		

> Q: And here's the curveball... Room B11, Cold Iron.  I'm glad I looked at it before the PC's got there, what is the actual puzzle?  The description is a little light on the details, eh?  Three interconnected iron rings that somehow form a puzzle that can be solved with an Int check or Disable Device?  What's the skinny?  The players are going to want details to try to figure the thing out logically, what should I tell them?




A: hmm... its been a while. i'm not sure what chris burns had in mind
(and man is that room written poorly)

here's my answer

put a series of groves on each side of the rings
its obvious the rings lock together, but the PCs
must figure out how, quickly, before the chill
touch jacks them up.... i know its a short answer
and deserves more attention, but its 2 AM on sunday
and its my day off





			
				nekrolog said:
			
		

> Anyway, after reading this thing like mad over the past few days to get prepared, I'd like to say very, very solid work all around on this project.  The concept, writing, layout, together make a good thing, well, really good.




you take that back...

oh wait... that was a compliment. never mind.


----------



## nekrolog

Very cool, thanks Jim.


----------



## Geoffrey

Sometimes I hate amazon! I preordered the World's Largest Dungeon on August 16th, and look at what their website says: 

Availability: This title usually ships within 1 to 2 months. 

Here's the link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/103-8909432-6227031?v=glance&s=books

I wish they'd get it together. I want this book! And I don't want to cancel my order and get it elsewhere because I managed to pre-order it for only $61.17.


----------



## twofalls

You buy the discounted book, you buy the discounted service. Now let me tell you about the all cool things I'm reading about in this thing.... 





Naw, seriuously Amazon is usually much better than that. Here's hoping that it arrives soon Geoffrey.


----------



## DaveMage

I just hope mine arrives before someone completes the adventure.


----------



## thundershot

I'm very patient. I can't afford to NOT be patient. 



Chris


----------



## JoeGKushner

Has anyone started an errata thread on this sucker yet?

I'm looking over the World Eater, and my stat building powers, while nothing compared to John Cooper, notice something.

1. The MM suggess a bump in CR for undead +1 for every 4 hit dice they get. This thing, I believe, has double the hit dice (+25), so should probably be +6 CR over a regular one right?

2. It has a base attack of +25 with a 56 Strength score. Now a 56 Strength score should be a modifier of +23, giving it a attack bonus of +48, since it’s colossal, it suffers a –8 penalty to attack, giving it a total of +40, which is listed here at +42, probably because it’s Strength damage bonus is off by two points, listed at +25 to damage, as opposed to +23.

Am I correct here or ? Should this be in another thread? A World's Largest Dungeon Errata? (No, I'm not going with World's Largest Errata... that belongs to Mongoose!)


----------



## CrimsonScribe

My copy of WLD finally showed up today, and of course I dived straight into it.

My first task - find out how the Tarrasque was handled.  So I dive to Region 0 figuring it that as it's one of the biggest monsters it will be towards the end.  Didn't find it.  So I looked at the region summary in the first few pages, and looked in what was the next best spot.  Bingo!

Now, my question relates to this same region and with out spoiling anything (apart from the fact that this is where the Tarrasque is - sorry about that):

"How is a party meant to get from Location 1 to Location 2?"

It doesn't look easy, though by this stage, I'm assuming most parties will have magic items and spells to accomplish said task with "aplomb".


----------



## DaveMage

CrimsonScribe said:
			
		

> My copy of WLD finally showed up today, and of course I dived straight into it.
> 
> My first task - find out how the Tarrasque was handled.




Crimson, you may want to edit your post and remove the location.  The WLD spoiler thread is here:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100030


----------



## CrimsonScribe

Fair enough, post edited.

Though I could sware more than what I spoke about had been mentioned in this thread.

Maybe I got both confused - as I've been reading both.


----------



## twofalls

Hey guys, I've been speaking with Jim about this thing quite a bit and learned that he was the only content editor for this entire project. The dungeon was given 11 months of prodcution time from conception to completion so there are going to be a few editing inconsistancies in it. I've read Sections A, E, and parts of B and the material is very good. I've also noticed a number of word and line errors, but there was a seperate editor for spelling and grammer... 

 I agree that an errata needs to be created, what I don't know is how much AEG's CEO is going to invest in after market support for this book. My biggest desire is to get player copies of the maps on pdf so that neither the players or the GM will be tasked with playing the parts of amature cartographers as this thing is gamed out. I've run one session so far and I can tell you with conviction, it WILL have to be mapped. A players map would have encounter keys, secret doors, map icons, and secret rooms editited out and could be revealed to players as they adventure, or even discovered as treasure. I encourage you all to write to AEG and place requests for this if you agree with me, the more voices added to the mix the more likely it will see funding.

Here is the email address to thier customer service department. customerservice@alderac.com


----------



## JoeGKushner

Well, I sent my e-mail in asking for an errata and player maps.


----------



## jim pinto

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Well, I sent my e-mail in asking for an errata and player maps.




joe.... i'm not going through and errating every monster because
you found a math error on the nightcrawler

if you want to post one, i've give you a few d20 books as a thank
you, but my day job is art direction. not re-reading a book, i've
already read three times.


----------



## JoeGKushner

jim pinto said:
			
		

> joe.... i'm not going through and errating every monster because
> you found a math error on the nightcrawler
> 
> if you want to post one, i've give you a few d20 books as a thank
> you, but my day job is art direction. not re-reading a book, i've
> already read three times.




Well, I don't know if it's an error in the nightcrawler but thought I'd post to see if it was. I'm nowheren ear the game mechanic that others are.

Maybe it can be a community project? I wouldn't mind throwing in some of the things I've noticed. No need for d20 books amigo. Save those for others. Maybe prizes for those who post the most errata? Maybe John Cooper will toss in his 2 cents, which is like a floodgate! I'd be willing to make it a PDF file if everyone wants to help out on that?

For the most part I didn't notice too many problems but there were some here and there. It's amazing how few I saw on my first few reads considering the girth of this beast! You should definatly be proud of it.


----------



## jim pinto

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Well, I don't know if it's an error in the nightcrawler but thought I'd post to see if it was. I'm nowheren ear the game mechanic that others are.
> 
> Maybe it can be a community project? I wouldn't mind throwing in some of the things I've noticed. No need for d20 books amigo. Save those for others. Maybe prizes for those who post the most errata? Maybe John Cooper will toss in his 2 cents, which is like a floodgate! I'd be willing to make it a PDF file if everyone wants to help out on that?
> 
> For the most part I didn't notice too many problems but there were some here and there. It's amazing how few I saw on my first few reads considering the girth of this beast! You should definatly be proud of it.




i can make a pdf with pretty borders and everything

i have the files to do it



alex jurkat just sent me a slew of questions on E, however,
siting problems with the map... and text... which bothers me
a little, but its all easily solveable stuff

nothing game ending


----------



## Lee Hammock

jim pinto said:
			
		

> alex jurkat just sent me a slew of questions on E, however,
> siting problems with the map... and text... which bothers me
> a little, but its all easily solveable stuff
> 
> nothing game ending




If i can help with any of those questions Jim send 'em on over.


----------



## Demon Gnome

Errata: The Descriptions of rooms B16 & B17 should be reversed based on the layout of the rooms on the map.


----------



## jim pinto

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> Errata: The Descriptions of rooms B16 & B17 should be reversed based on the layout of the rooms on the map.




correct. i just looked at it again.

chances are, i'm going to be compiling a list as more and more
questions to get posted to these two lists about the book.

joe kushner has offered some help, as well

i'm not worried about monsters having the wrong hit points,
but i am worried about the map being mislabelled and duplicate
rooms in the book (Room C105 is printed twice... the second
one is correct)

minor problems, but annoying nonetheless

thanks for keeping us honest


----------



## twofalls

Errata: E5 is printed twice on the map, my guess is that the westernmost symbol is likely the correct printing


----------



## jim pinto

twofalls said:
			
		

> Errata: E5 is printed twice on the map, my guess is that the westernmost symbol is likely the correct printing




the E5 to the west is the room on the description

the E5 to the east is the furthest the ghost will chase
the PCs.


----------



## twofalls

jim pinto said:
			
		

> the E5 to the west is the room on the description
> 
> the E5 to the east is the furthest the ghost will chase
> the PCs.



Ah, okay that makes sense, thanks for clearing that up. I decided to label all the rooms as bedrooms for priests of the temple and assumed that the map was a misprint.


----------



## Demon Gnome

I will keep eye out for any other errata I can find, but will avoid posting the many many grammar fixes needed (like every page or two).


----------



## DaveMage

Demon Gnome said:
			
		

> I will keep eye out for any other errata I can find, but will avoid posting the many many grammar fixes needed (like every page or two).




Well, should AEG be fortunate enough that a second printing is warranted, they may want the grammar errata too.  (Although, no, I wouldn't post it here either.      )


----------



## nekrolog

If anyone's interested, I'm building a site for our campaign journal.  It's still a WIP, but the first session synopsis is up, and the encounter with the doors in room A1 is pretty funny.  It's more for my players than anything else... the half-orc has an Int, Wis, and Cha of 4 each.


----------



## twofalls

Bravo Necro, I enjoyed reading that! I look forward to following your group as they adventure through the dungeon and comparing it to what my group does. They spend a great deal more time deliberating about the doors and thought to bypass the entire area and continue on through the earthquake scar in the earth. Eventually they thought better of it and entered. They didn't kill the orcs, regardless of the humanoids beligerence, and explored a little more of the complex. In two days we meet again for our game weekend and I hope to complete Region A and enter E. I'll fill you in on the highlights when I get back.


----------



## alex_jurkat

*Map E stuff*

Hey all,

As jim mentioned, I worked through Map E recently and came up with some questions.  As a long-time editor, I understand jim's frustration at errors and confusing map/text comparisons.  It's hard to iron all that out in a 100 or 200-page book.  With an 800+ page book and a serious deadline, I must say I'm impressed with how error free the bulk of this book is.

Anyway, enough stroking.  I put my questions on the spoiler thread at http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100030&page=5&pp=20.

Thanks for any help folks can give,
Alex Jurkat
Eden Studios
www.edenstudios.net


----------



## jim pinto

alex_jurkat said:
			
		

> Hey all,
> 
> As jim mentioned, I worked through Map E recently and came up with some questions.  As a long-time editor, I understand jim's frustration at errors and confusing map/text comparisons.  It's hard to iron all that out in a 100 or 200-page book.  With an 800+ page book and a serious deadline, I must say I'm impressed with how error free the bulk of this book is.
> 
> Anyway, enough stroking.  I put my questions on the spoiler thread at http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100030&page=5&pp=20.
> 
> Thanks for any help folks can give,
> Alex Jurkat
> Eden Studios
> www.edenstudios.net




whoa... everyone is talking on the other thread now
and this one has grown ghostly quiet.... do i need to
post another sample encounter to get people smiling
again on this thread


----------



## HiLiphNY

It's hard for me to get excited about the product, when I'm still waiting for Amazon to ship it to me.  Perhaps, Jim, AEG could expedite its shipment to Amazon, hmm?


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> whoa... everyone is talking on the other thread now
> and this one has grown ghostly quiet.... do i need to
> post another sample encounter to get people smiling
> again on this thread




Actually, though I am in the same boat as others who are waiting for their amazon arrival, it's not necessarily a bad thing since others are now paving the way for an even better experience.

The advice you (and other writers) are giving here and in the other thread will no doubt prove quite helpful once my copy finally does arrive.

It was mentioned in the other thread (and I know you don't like to deal with praise, jim), but people are more excited about this product in many of the forums I have visited than I have seen in a while for any product.  (Usually, once a product is out, people stop talking about it - not so with the WLD.)Even those that have found some problems with the WLD are still giving it very high marks with regards to the overall quality of the work.

While I'm sure there will be someone who eventually pans it (there's always one, isn't there?), the fact that so many people are speaking positively about the product makes me even more excited for it.

In fact, even some normally, um, shall I say, "jaded" consumers, are impressed and being persuaded to pick it up.

(And I still say it's pretty damn cool that Arneson picked one up at GenCon.)


----------



## jim pinto

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Actually, though I am in the same boat as others who are waiting for their amazon arrival, it's not necessarily a bad thing since others are now paving the way for an even better experience.
> 
> The advice you (and other writers) are giving here and in the other thread will no doubt prove quite helpful once my copy finally does arrive.
> 
> It was mentioned in the other thread (and I know you don't like to deal with praise, jim), but people are more excited about this product in many of the forums I have visited than I have seen in a while for any product.  (Usually, once a product is out, people stop talking about it - not so with the WLD.)Even those that have found some problems with the WLD are still giving it very high marks with regards to the overall quality of the work.
> 
> While I'm sure there will be someone who eventually pans it (there's always one, isn't there?), the fact that so many people are speaking positively about the product makes me even more excited for it.
> 
> In fact, even some normally, um, shall I say, "jaded" consumers, are impressed and being persuaded to pick it up.
> 
> (And I still say it's pretty damn cool that Arneson picked one up at GenCon.)




note: the people on rpg.net are doing a fine job of bitching.
apparently, the lack of an index has stopped them from buying it

<rolling eyes>

i'm still waiting for that first angry review online... so far, i've only
seen the silven crossroads review

and yes, i was thoroughly stoked to meet, mr. arneson, let alone
shake his hand and wait a minute... he never paid for that copy

and after all the products of his i purchased over the years

i'm absolutely flummoxed



btw...

i'll be in Boise, ID on the weekend of Halloween,
attending a game convention. according to these
guys, toolbox is may raison d'etre and not WLD

http://www.rrpg.org/oktobercon/index.htm

peace


----------



## rowport

nekrolog said:
			
		

> If anyone's interested, I'm building a site for our campaign journal.  It's still a WIP, but the first session synopsis is up, and the encounter with the doors in room A1 is pretty funny.  It's more for my players than anything else... the half-orc has an Int, Wis, and Cha of 4 each.



Necro-

Your site is awesome- I love the Half-Orc and the reluctant puppy familiar.

I am jonesing for this book!!  My FGS reports that it is on back-order already, apparently- it must be doing great.  Congrats, Jim!


----------



## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> note: the people on rpg.net are doing a fine job of bitching.
> apparently, the lack of an index has stopped them from buying it
> 
> <rolling eyes>




Um, I don't think I've ever seen an index in an adventure....

Although, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen satisfied customers on rpg.net.


----------



## jim pinto

rowport said:
			
		

> Necro-
> 
> Your site is awesome- I love the Half-Orc and the reluctant puppy familiar.
> 
> I am jonesing for this book!!  My FGS reports that it is on back-order already, apparently- it must be doing great.  Congrats, Jim!




where is necro's story

i never saw a link

let me know and i'll check it out


----------



## DM_Jeff

>>according to these guys, toolbox is my raison d'etre and not WLD

Imagine that. We'll have to wait until WLD wins an ENnie next year for that to get added. 

 

-DM Jeff


----------



## Geoffrey

Curse you, amazon! Ship the book already!


----------



## jim pinto

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> >>according to these guys, toolbox is my raison d'etre and not WLD
> 
> Imagine that. We'll have to wait until WLD wins an ENnie next year for that to get added.
> 
> 
> 
> -DM Jeff




ha.

you're the jerk who wrote the thing anyway.

i just made it good. BAM!!



nothing but love, senor ibach


----------



## jim pinto

damn double post...


----------



## nekrolog

Jim, I took down the link, I was going to keep the site private so our group could use it for contact info... that didn't work out so:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res8j9i7/

P.S.... dear Lord, please forgive my inability to write. Amen.


----------



## jim pinto

nekrolog said:
			
		

> Jim, I took down the link, I was going to keep the site private so our group could use it for contact info... that didn't work out so:
> 
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res8j9i7/
> 
> P.S.... dear Lord, please forgive my inability to write. Amen.




i remember reading this.

it was lighter and funnier, before... wasn't it?

did you edit it?

keep up the good work


----------



## nekrolog

jim pinto said:
			
		

> i remember reading this.
> 
> it was lighter and funnier, before... wasn't it?
> 
> did you edit it?
> 
> keep up the good work





Yes, it was thoroughly edited for humorous content.  I can't be responsible for uncontrolled laughter.


----------



## jim pinto

*zzzzzzzz*

is it time to abadon this thread? has everyone turned their back on it?
now that the book is out and people are following the spoiler thread?

let me know.

dave mage, i expect you to tell me when to tune in for news on here


----------



## DaveMage

I'm guessing the thread will spring to life again once amazon gets around to shipping the WLD.

(Or until those of us who did order from there finally can't take waiting anymore and buy it from somewhere else.)

Either way, you'd be hard pressed to find any other single d20 product ever with a preview thread this long on EN World (the 3.0/3.5 D&D core rulebooks may be the only exception).  

I'd say it's been successful.

And honestly, it's threads like this that make me appreciate EN World so much.  It's great to be excited about a project and then have publishers/writers commenting and responding to feedback.


----------



## pheaver

I'm still reading the thread to see if any more news about Amazon.com and the World's Largest Dungeon come up.  I'm still waiting for them to receive it, and I've noticed no responses from AEG on the questions that have been raised.  There's only about 7 more sessions in my current campaign, and then we're planning on starting this.

Paul


----------



## Barendd Nobeard

Those of us playing WLD are *not* following the spoiler thread.  At least, I'm not.


----------



## spectre72

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I'm guessing the thread will spring to life again once amazon gets around to shipping the WLD.
> 
> (Or until those of us who did order from there finally can't take waiting anymore and buy it from somewhere else.)




I have to agree with this.

It is very hard to follow the discussion and generate more when you don't have the book.

I should have mine today, but I cancelled my order from Amazon and bought it somewhere else.

IMHO the whole Amazon situation is mind blowing.  From sales rank 8000 to 16000 on this product in a short period of time.  But when they can't get the product and have no answers as to when they will get it it really doesn't surprise me.

-Scott


----------



## DaveMage

Because of "share the love" and the fact that I had a gift cert to amazon, I'm getting the WLD for around $51 at amazon.

That's hard to pass up.  However, for those of you who want a good discount (30% off) and want it NOW, I would recommend stiggybaby.com.  I've used them a couple times and they ship nice and fast and have lots of 50% off deals there too.



			
				Pheaver said:
			
		

> I'm still reading the thread to see if any more news about Amazon.com and the World's Largest Dungeon come up. I'm still waiting for them to receive it, and I've noticed no responses from AEG on the questions that have been raised.




Not to speak for AEG, but this question regards the company's distribution methods which may not be something they wish to (or should) comment on publicly.  (And also, the posters here from AEG may not have any idea regarding things on that side of the house.)


----------



## jim pinto

pheaver said:
			
		

> I'm still reading the thread to see if any more news about Amazon.com and the World's Largest Dungeon come up.  I'm still waiting for them to receive it, and I've noticed no responses from AEG on the questions that have been raised.  There's only about 7 more sessions in my current campaign, and then we're planning on starting this.
> 
> Paul




i'm not sure what questions you have that aren't being answered

i'm on here everyday. and i respond to just about everything. if you asked something and i missed it, ask me again and i'll do my best to address it.


----------



## HiLiphNY

jim pinto said:
			
		

> i'm not sure what questions you have that aren't being answered
> 
> i'm on here everyday. and i respond to just about everything. if you asked something and i missed it, ask me again and i'll do my best to address it.



When is AEG shipping to Amazon?  It is clear that they have not as of yet.

If this is perhaps not clear enough, as an Amazon customer who has ordered this product back in August, when may I expect my purchase to be filled?


----------



## Leopold

I had to go through 3 shops to find it in 2 different states. I spread out my queries and told them "Look the first one that gets this gets my $100" it really really was worth $100 as I got it tuesday. I can say this: This book is thick. Take all 3 core books, put them ontop of each other and you got the thickness of this tome. 

It's not a book, it's a tome, really.


----------



## jim pinto

HiLiphNY said:
			
		

> When is AEG shipping to Amazon?  It is clear that they have not as of yet.




actually, we have

we shipped it sometime ago

but the book trade has their own pace.

something we're not in charge of



			
				HiLiphNY said:
			
		

> If this is perhaps not clear enough, as an Amazon customer who has ordered this product back in August, when may I expect my purchase to be filled?




this, however, is a question for amazon. not aeg.

i spoke with sean lashgari (our sales manager) and amazon has ordered
plenty of copies, but there are apparently two distributors involved (ingram, psi), whom amazon gets their books from and there is confusion on their end

(not ours)

as to who gets what

so... that's about as good as i can do at the moment, since i'm just the editor/writer for the book and not in charge of shipping

i hope this alleviates some peoples' concerns


----------



## ShadowAdept

Amazon always seems to be about a week or two behind rpgshop and frpgames, I've noticed.


----------



## twofalls

HiLiphNY said:
			
		

> If this is perhaps not clear enough, as an Amazon customer who has ordered this product back in August, when may I expect my purchase to be filled?




I can understand you being testy HiLiphNY, its a lot of money and no one likes to wait after they've spend a lot of money. However I think your frustration is targeted in the wrong direction. I hope you are able to work things out with Amazon.


----------



## PaulofCthulhu

Well, people have obviously started playing it:

World's Largest Dungeon audio session 1

Paul


----------



## Barendd Nobeard

PaulofCthulhu said:
			
		

> Well, people have obviously started playing it:
> 
> World's Largest Dungeon audio session 1
> 
> Paul



 Paul:

Is this your group playing it?

(I'm CharlesDexterWard over at y-s.com - welcome to d20-land!  )


----------



## PaulofCthulhu

Yes, yes, it's our group. I am the very loud Dwarf with the wandering accent: *Balazaar the Wizard*. Good to see you CDW!

Paul


----------



## DaveMage

Amazon is once again listing the WLD for 32% off.

I'm not sure if that means anything to those of us who are still waiting for it, but I'm going to pretend it's a good sign.


----------



## Barendd Nobeard

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Amazon is once again listing the WLD for 32% off.
> 
> I'm not sure if that means anything to those of us who are still waiting for it, but I'm going to pretend it's a good sign.



 Naw, it still says:



			
				amazon.com said:
			
		

> *Availability:* Usually ships within 1 to 2 months




Guess we'll just keep waiting.....


----------



## jim pinto

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Naw, it still says:
> 
> 
> 
> Guess we'll just keep waiting.....




i feel bad for everyone who is waiting.

all that excitement for the book is wasted as you wait for amazon to sort through their own internal bureaucracy.

best of luck


----------



## nekrolog

Wierd happenings in our second WLD session.

For the first 10 minutes we played, I (DM) thought that the whole campaign was going to blow up.  After describing several empty rooms and running a few fights, I was afraid that this whole 'super-mega-dungeon-hack' thing was going to be a very boring monotonous experience for my players.  I think I was actually sweating.  (could have been the curry).

At the end of the night, the whole group said that they were completely engrossed and having a really good gaming experience.  I think it took a little time for them to adjust to a dungeon crawl, but when they did they even role-played their characters like I've never seen them do before.


----------



## johnsemlak

I just noticed that WLD just went back to $67 at Amazon...


----------



## johnnyc

*WLD at Gencon (UK)*

Any idea if the product is getting anything beyond a Retail presence at the upcoming UK Gencon in October?

JohnnyC


----------



## jim pinto

johnnyc said:
			
		

> Any idea if the product is getting anything beyond a Retail presence at the upcoming UK Gencon in October?
> 
> JohnnyC




it is my understanding that someone will have it there, yes

but i don't have specifics


----------



## Barendd Nobeard

jim pinto said:
			
		

> i feel bad for everyone who is waiting.
> 
> all that excitement for the book is wasted as you wait for amazon to sort through their own internal bureaucracy.
> 
> best of luck



 Well, don't feel too bad for my group.  We're not wasting any excitement!

Our DM just borrowed WLD from someone who bought it retail.  We've had three sessions--lasting 7 hours, 6 hours, and 8 hours--in one week!  We're doing great.  We've almost cleared the first map (80% done, the DM says), and we've actually uncovered some interesting plot/backstory regarding the dungeon.

Someday, amazon will ship my copy, which we will then hand over to our friend who lent us his "retail" copy.  Everybody wins!


----------



## DaveMage

And for me, my group is currently involved in another adventure (and we have difficulty getting together during football season anyway), so there's really no rush.  I'll probably run it for them next year at some point.

Also, my real plan is to have my kids go though it in a few years (they are ages 2 and 1 now so I have a little time   ).  In fact, I just might be able to actually read the whole thing through before I DM it for them.   

(Oh, and Barendd - congrats on being post #666 - always a special post number in a D&D thread...    )


----------



## Garnfellow

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I just noticed that WLD just went back to $67 at Amazon...




Time to break out a Share the Love thread!!!


----------



## Barendd Nobeard

DaveMage said:
			
		

> (Oh, and Barendd - congrats on being post #666 - always a special post number in a D&D thread...    )




Thanks, DaveMage.  Given my title, it's kind of appropriate!


----------



## Ozmar

*Where is the best place to buy this book?*

Speaking of Amazon...

Does anyone have any recommendations for the best deal (online or otherwise) to obtain a copy of this marvelous adventure. We're interested in value (cheapest price) and speed of delivery.

On one end, I could walk into my FLGS today and walk out $100 poorer (but infinitely richer with book in hand). On the other, I could send $68 + shipping to Amazon and wait 2 or 3 gruelling months for satisfaction.

Does anyone know if there are better deals out there? Maybe an online store selling at more than 35% off cover price and shipping within the week?

Much appreciated!
Ozmar the Frugal Consumer


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## DaveMage

Stiggybaby.com.*

30% off.  They ship nice and fast.


*(And everytime I recommend them, I feel I have to thank EN World user Treebore for pointing them out to me.  Great vendor - thanks, Treebore!)


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## Ozmar

Hooray! Thanks!


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## jim pinto

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Speaking of Amazon...
> 
> Does anyone have any recommendations for the best deal (online or otherwise) to obtain a copy of this marvelous adventure. We're interested in value (cheapest price) and speed of delivery.
> 
> On one end, I could walk into my FLGS today and walk out $100 poorer (but infinitely richer with book in hand). On the other, I could send $68 + shipping to Amazon and wait 2 or 3 gruelling months for satisfaction.
> 
> Does anyone know if there are better deals out there? Maybe an online store selling at more than 35% off cover price and shipping within the week?
> 
> Much appreciated!
> Ozmar the Frugal Consumer




okay.

i know i said this before, but supporting your local retailer is the best thing you can do for the hobby you love. yes, you save $30 now. but in a few years, when stores go belly up because they can't compete with online shipping, where are you going to go to game, review, cajole, and general preview everything you love about gaming.

don't let gaming turn into comic collecting.

okay

my rant is over.

whew.

back to gaming


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## JediSoth

*Thread's not dead yet...*

Whew. It took me most of a week, but I finally finished reading this thread and the spoilers thread. That's a lot of stuff to sift through. 

 One of my players saw this at GenCon (as I did) and convinced the rest that we should play it as my next campaign. I reluctantly agreed, since I'd already bought Eberron and had at least the first 3-4 sessions worked out. But these two threads have really made me anticipate running this. I, too, am one of the unfortunates who ordered this from Amazon.com and was told it would be 1 - 2 months, but I'm not yet prepared to cancel that order and look elsehwere because I had a $30 off coupon in addition to the 32%, so I ended up paying $37 for it (or I will pay that much, if they ever send it out). Fortunately, so much information is in these threads that I'm able to start planning. Also fortunately, we have to wrap up another DM's campaign before my next one starts, and that will take us through October at least.

 Thanks especially to Jim Pinto for posting all those previews. The introduction was a great help in getting the rusty wheels in my mind turning again in DM mode. My group has a website, and once we start delving into WLD, we'll send the link to www.worldslargestdungeon.com.

 JediSoth


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## jim pinto

JediSoth said:
			
		

> Whew. It took me most of a week, but I finally finished reading this thread and the spoilers thread. That's a lot of stuff to sift through.
> 
> One of my players saw this at GenCon (as I did) and convinced the rest that we should play it as my next campaign. I reluctantly agreed, since I'd already bought Eberron and had at least the first 3-4 sessions worked out. But these two threads have really made me anticipate running this. I, too, am one of the unfortunates who ordered this from Amazon.com and was told it would be 1 - 2 months, but I'm not yet prepared to cancel that order and look elsehwere because I had a $30 off coupon in addition to the 32%, so I ended up paying $37 for it (or I will pay that much, if they ever send it out). Fortunately, so much information is in these threads that I'm able to start planning. Also fortunately, we have to wrap up another DM's campaign before my next one starts, and that will take us through October at least.
> 
> Thanks especially to Jim Pinto for posting all those previews. The introduction was a great help in getting the rusty wheels in my mind turning again in DM mode. My group has a website, and once we start delving into WLD, we'll send the link to www.worldslargestdungeon.com.
> 
> JediSoth




you can e-mail it to me directly

you can also post it to the spoiler thread
and ask guys with blogs to post it on their sites
as well

hope you like the book


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## Ozmar

jim pinto said:
			
		

> okay.
> 
> i know i said this before, but supporting your local retailer is the best thing you can do for the hobby you love. yes, you save $30 now. but in a few years, when stores go belly up because they can't compete with online shipping, where are you going to go to game, review, cajole, and general preview everything you love about gaming.
> 
> don't let gaming turn into comic collecting.
> 
> okay
> 
> my rant is over.
> 
> whew.
> 
> back to gaming




Jim,

I appreciate your viewpoint. I fully believe that (with appropriate regulations) an open market that promotes fair competition is best for the economy as a whole in terms of improving efficiency, which helps everyone over the long term (although it certainly hurts those who lose in the competition). I also believe that, regardless of whether anyone subscribes to this economic philosophy, it closely reflects the reality that individuals are going to act in their own perceived best interest.

Having said that, I am apparantly agreeing with you that it is in my best interest to keep funding my FLGS, because my friends and I decided it was worth the extra $40 to get our grubby little paws on this immediately.  We went to the shop and bought it.

Thanks for feeding our addictions! 

Ozmar the Gamer


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## jim pinto

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Jim,
> 
> I appreciate your viewpoint. I fully believe that (with appropriate regulations) an open market that promotes fair competition is best for the economy as a whole in terms of improving efficiency, which helps everyone over the long term (although it certainly hurts those who lose in the competition). I also believe that, regardless of whether anyone subscribes to this economic philosophy, it closely reflects the reality that individuals are going to act in their own perceived best interest.
> 
> Having said that, I am apparantly agreeing with you that it is in my best interest to keep funding my FLGS, because my friends and I decided it was worth the extra $40 to get our grubby little paws on this immediately.  We went to the shop and bought it.




as much as i love a good debate, i'll just wait until gencon 2005 to discuss this one with you.





			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> Thanks for feeding our addictions!
> 
> Ozmar the Gamer




and its my pleasure

enjoy


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## PaulofCthulhu

This info is also in the WLD spolier thread, but what the heck, here it is again. There's now a dedicated forum for AEG's *World's Largest Dungeon* over at www.rpgmp3.com

RPGMP3 WLD forum

For those following it, our 2nd audio session is available, the 3rd is in the can and the 4th will be recorded next week.

A possible benefit? Is that issues raised there could end up as discussion in the audio recordings as well.

Paul


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## HiLiphNY

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Jim,
> 
> I appreciate your viewpoint. I fully believe that (with appropriate regulations) an open market that promotes fair competition is best for the economy as a whole in terms of improving efficiency, which helps everyone over the long term (although it certainly hurts those who lose in the competition). I also believe that, regardless of whether anyone subscribes to this economic philosophy, it closely reflects the reality that individuals are going to act in their own perceived best interest.



Amen!  Free Market Capitalism is the foundation this wonderful hobby was build under, and it is this innovation and spark that makes it continue to thrive.  I am not going to hijack this thread (too much,) but I NEVER want to hear the call of the poor FLGS being used as a crutch.

I love some of the gaming products out there, but I only buy those that represent a truly great value.  Extrapolate that to Gaming stores: I love some of the FLGS and do biz there, but there are some that blow, and I assume that they will vaporize eventually.  Dollars flow to those who earn them; i.e., a great product like WLD will get a premium price - sometimes $100, sometimes $60.  It's the ability to choose this price scale that makes the whole system work.  

Telling me where to shop, outside the context of this equation, makes absolutely no logical sense.

Go WLD!


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## jim pinto

HiLiphNY said:
			
		

> Telling me where to shop, outside the context of this equation, makes absolutely no logical sense.
> 
> Go WLD!




oh man, what a great debate you and i would have



sadly, this 680th post on the world's largest dungeon is the last i will be making. this thread has been slowly receiving less and less attention now that people are playing it and creating blogs about their adventures. just about any question someone could have about this product has been answered (sometimes four and five times).

while i am more than willing to answer questions about this product, my attention can no longer be devoted to this thread.

anyone interested in the product is still welcome to ask me questions at the e-mail address below.

i'd like to thank all the people on this thread that have made the past 7 months so much fun. davemage and thundershot deserve a big thanks for their support and help to make this project successful.

good gaming, everyone.


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## DaveMage

jim pinto said:
			
		

> sadly, this 680th post on the world's largest dungeon is the last i will be making. this thread has been slowly receiving less and less attention now that people are playing it and creating blogs about their adventures. just about any question someone could have about this product has been answered (sometimes four and five times).
> 
> i'd like to thank all the people on this thread that have made the past 7 months so much fun. davemage and thundershot deserve a big thanks for their support and help to make this project successful.
> 
> good gaming, everyone.




And a big thank you to you jim, for taking the time to visit!

Between this thread and the spoiler thread, there have been almost 1,000 posts and over 50,000 views on EN World.  A fitting tribute to the WLD.

Goodnight, everybody!


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## thundershot

Thank you as well, jim...



*turns off the lights on the way out*


*click*










The End


----------



## Raven Crowking

*Questions*

Okay, reading through A I have some questions:

1) What is the "Decrepit" condition that appears in Room A 32? I know that I can just ignore the word, but I'd like to know what it was originally intended to represent.

2) Why is is that the Condition Summary lists some conditions as Condition Name X, where X is the value given to that condition, but several room descriptions lack the number represented by X? For example, Room A 25 has the Distracting Visions condition, but there is no value for it. Similarly, A31 has Distracting Noises with no value. Is there an errata somewhere that addresses this?


RC


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## DaveMage

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Okay, reading through A I have some questions:
> 
> 2) Why is is that the Condition Summary lists some conditions as Condition Name X, where X is the value given to that condition, but several room descriptions lack the number represented by X? For example, Room A 25 has the Distracting Visions condition, but there is no value for it. Similarly, A31 has Distracting Noises with no value. Is there an errata somewhere that addresses this?
> 
> 
> RC




I would suggest using the recommendation in the core rulebooks, which (speaking about DCs) says that if something would make things more difficult, raise the DC by 2.  So, in the example above, make it Distracting Visions/Noises 2.  If you would like it to be severe, make it Distracting Visions/Noises 4.


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## Raven Crowking

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I would suggest using the recommendation in the core rulebooks, which (speaking about DCs) says that if something would make things more difficult, raise the DC by 2.  So, in the example above, make it Distracting Visions/Noises 2.  If you would like it to be severe, make it Distracting Visions/Noises 4.






Thanks.  And sorry about the double-thread posting, but I was really hoping for an answer prior to the first "run" on Tuesday.  Any idea what "Decrepit" was supposed to mean?


RC


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## DaveMage

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Thanks.  And sorry about the double-thread posting, but I was really hoping for an answer prior to the first "run" on Tuesday.  Any idea what "Decrepit" was supposed to mean?
> 
> RC




No, I can't help you there.  Maybe it was supposed to say "Desecration" instead of "Decrepit".


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## Raven Crowking

DaveMage said:
			
		

> No, I can't help you there.  Maybe it was supposed to say "Desecration" instead of "Decrepit".





Actually, I've noticed that "Decrepit" appears in the Conditions of two rooms in Section A.  It seems to be a condition that was cut from the book, either intentionally or not.  



RC


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## Saeviomagy

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Actually, I've noticed that "Decrepit" appears in the Conditions of two rooms in Section A.  It seems to be a condition that was cut from the book, either intentionally or not.
> 
> RC




Decrepit means that it's run-down and dilapidated. Broken, worn out from old age, etc.


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## Raven Crowking

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> Decrepit means that it's run-down and dilapidated. Broken, worn out from old age, etc.





Yes, but what does it mean in game terms as an encounter condition?


----------



## Maiden Paladin

**Thirteen Years Later**

This may be the most audacious thread-resurrection in history, but I was in the _World's Largest Dungeon_ campaign of 2005 which *Raven Crowking* ran (then I was known on here as *Odnasept*, and we got all the way to Regions I and J (at Levels 5 to 6!) before school in September ended it) and I still recall his final words when I offered to buy the Dungeon off of him:

"No, I'm going to keep it, and make a _good_ dungeon out of it."

Raven is one of the best/badarse DMs I've ever known, so I have no doubt that he had/has the wherewithal to do it, and I myself couldn't stop obsessing about the Dungeon. I joined the official-site linked https://spacecrime-wlg.livejournal.com/ campaign as *Aeonstar* in October 2006 (Bronze Dragon, Succubus, or Trumpet Archon, I have never played a normal race in the WLD lol) and got my own copy for Christmas of that year. Years later we _sort of_ accomplished the victory condition of the entire Dungeon, yet it wasn't until this year that I finally decided to run that monstrosity of a module myself as a Dungeon Mistress.

I too felt the need to modify the World's Largest Dungeon somewhat before starting. The flat plane of the maps was disappointing to me as it has been for many others (Region N is said in the book to be at least 6 miles below the surface, but said book is rather vague on how exactly the PCs travel that far down), so only the first few regions are fairly level while the higher-level ones are on much lower levels (if that makes any sense). Not only does this approach give more of a feeling of descent, but it also allows me to better control which regions the PCs tackle and when they do so.

The Dungeon can theoretically be used with any setting, but the reasons for entering it as listed aren't very strong, so I went for the gusto: my WLD campaign is set on near-future Earth during nuclear Armageddon; the first PCs entered to flee the effects of fallout! Considering that the Dungeon is usually sealed/guarded from the outside and thus the introduction of modern technology to it is sparse, I can still run much of it straight, with some exceptions (two being i) the PCs now travel with a business-suited young woman who was apparently the only survivor of a failed archeological excavation an unknown time ago, and ii) some silver bullets and mid-20th century weapons/items may be found in Region C, as the Paladins of Merunda (Our Lady, Star of the Sea in my campaign) now entered back in the 1960s ie. "50 years ago" as the written in the WLD book). Answering questions such as "who started this war?", "is the entire world nuked?", "just how many genetically-modified humanoid races are there now?", and "why did that Titan sacrifice himself to save us from the Balor who popped out of the entrance just as we arrived?" now join "how do we get out?" as questions to which the PCs seek answers here in the World's Largest Dungeon. I'm so excited I'm even going to stream it on Twitch! 

I'm also curious: is anyone else here interested at all in revisiting this massive module? If so, what changes are you making?


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## timbannock

Audacious indeed!

I ran several sessions in it but the group semi-folded, and when we got back together we played other stuff. I've often thought back to this dungeon and how there are so many good ideas within it, but the scope of making it into something better always seemed just outside of my ability to wrangle. I have tons of advice for how to make the first couple sections better, but not the bigger picture, as much.

I'd be happy to read other peoples' efforts, though, and offer advice when asked ;-P


----------



## Thomas Bowman

DaveMage said:


> From the EN Wold front page/Gaming Report:
> 
> http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=12129&mode=thread&order=0
> 
> So what does everyone think of the concept?
> 
> Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.
> 
> It seems like a "campaign in a box" concept of which there are so very few.




Hard for me to comment on something that is written in a language that I don't understand! I prefer smaller dungeons that I can tailor to my campaign rather than a campaign in a box. Those things can be expensive, I liked the older dungeons where you played it and only rose one or two levels upon completion.

I one time DMed Dragons of Autumn Twilight when it was converted to 3rd Edition, some parts were hard to get through.


----------



## Ancalagon

I've come to believe that a large dungeon is "better" than a mega dugeon - a kilo dungeon, if you will.   The mega is unwieldy.


----------



## Maiden Paladin

neuronphaser, I am more than happy to have you watch my endeavours with the Dungeon, and to receive any advice you have.


 

Thomas Bowman, that is quite the coincidence; the last D&D campaign I streamed on my channel at twitch.tv/maidenpaladin was _Dragons of Autumn Twilight_ (ie. _Dragons of Despair_ and _Dragons of Flame_), albeit in the original 1st Edition AD&D in which it was first written! In fact, due to those adventures only taking them up one level (to Level 2), the two original PCs made for that campaign are returning for my World's Largest Dungeon one once they've been transferred to v. 3.5.


----------

