# Game Distributors Closing Down; RPG Publishers Affected



## Celebrim (Mar 31, 2020)

Well, I'm not a really good barometer of the marketplace, but I have bought more RPG material in the last 4 weeks than I bought in the previous 4 years combined.

I have a brand new 7e CoC, 5e Pendragon, and 5e Great Pendragon Campaign hard covers sitting here beside me, and I have a ton of new pdfs.


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## Legatus Legionis (Mar 31, 2020)

.


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## Morrus (Mar 31, 2020)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> There is word Diamond is not going to make some payments to its suppliers.




Is there an echo in here?


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## atanakar (Mar 31, 2020)

Well If you can't buy a new rpg create one of your own design. Always wanted to do a refreshed modern version of Star Frontiers. My other attempts in the past have all gone to the file 13. That is what I have been doing the last 2 days. This time everything is falling into place. The days go by very fast.

All that because of the discussion we had here about the differences between creativity and design.


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## GreyLord (Mar 31, 2020)

And then there's this for those of you interested in PDF's, charity, and WotC.

DMs Guild

DM's Guild sponsoring Doctors without borders charity bundles

Not sure how long the charity event will go for.


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## DWChancellor (Mar 31, 2020)

I'm building up a list for if/when my local store opens back up.  They barely survived the last recession.


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## Morrus (Mar 31, 2020)

Talking of buying PDFs directly from publishers, you can buy from us at our store. We have #dnd, #woinrpg, and #2000adrpg stuff and more! 









						EN Publishing: Producers of fine tabletop roleplaying games
					

Producers of fine tabletop roleplaying games and supplements.



					enpublishingrpg.com


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## Eyes of Nine (Apr 1, 2020)

DWChancellor said:


> I'm building up a list for if/when my local store opens back up.  They barely survived the last recession.




I've been buying gift certificates using PayPal once a week at my local store. They are still responding to emails; and he's also sent out emails with his phone number if I wanted to call or text him.


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## Jimmy Dick (Apr 1, 2020)

Hopefully, the stores will qualify for the loan money from the government, but I don't know how that is going to work. One major fact remains, the industry is going to go through a major period of change. A stronger focus on digital publishing is going to be essential for the companies that pull through. That makes me wonder how WotC will keep 5e moving forward. I don't waste my time with MTG stuff, so I don't know how their digital MTG is working for them, but unless they've got another product generating lots of money, I'd say WotC is in worse shape than some companies that have a strong focus on digital products. 

Gen Con might very well still happen and if so, a lot of companies are going to be praying for good con attendance so as to sell product. Some of the smaller cons that actually get to happen might very well see more than the usual publisher presence if the companies think they can move physical product at those cons.


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## ddaley (Apr 1, 2020)

atanakar said:


> Well If you can't buy a new rpg create one of your own design. Always wanted to do a refreshed modern version of Star Frontiers. My other attempts in the past have all gone to the file 13. That is what I have been doing the last 2 days. This time everything is falling into place. The days go by very fast.
> 
> All that because of the discussion we had here about the differences between creativity and design.




I have always been fond of Star Frontiers.  I still have all of my old material.  Would be nice to see an updated version of that.


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## Morrus (Apr 1, 2020)

Jimmy Dick said:


> That makes me wonder how WotC will keep 5e moving forward. I don't waste my time with MTG stuff, so I don't know how their digital MTG is working for them, but unless they've got another product generating lots of money, I'd say WotC is in worse shape than some companies that have a strong focus on digital products.



WotC will be just fine. It’s the small to mid level companies with little to fall back on that are going to struggle.


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## atanakar (Apr 1, 2020)

ddaley said:


> I have always been fond of Star Frontiers.  I still have all of my old material.  Would be nice to see an updated version of that.




A similar updated game by fans of Star Frontiers. I have the PHB and Referee pdfs. Well done.








						FrontierSpace Player's Handbook - DwD Studios | FrontierSpace | DriveThruRPG.com
					

FrontierSpace Player's Handbook -      Among the stars in a distant galaxy there exists a region of densely populated habitable worlds. It is here your st




					www.drivethrurpg.com
				




My project is far from being available any time soon.


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## EthanSental (Apr 1, 2020)

And the sales of 5e to this point and the slow release rate might help WoTC even more, small staff still able to collaborate and get things lined up to eventually send to the printers for the September release or whenever the fall release is.  Hopefully things will settle down in time for that and hopefully quicker fo every one.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 1, 2020)

Speaking as the owner of a Comic and Game store... stuff is rough out there right now.  I'm probably going to be able to ride it out, but we're losing at least several hundred dollars every day.  Our expenses will drop drastically with Diamond not shipping comics (which is why they're doing it, aside from the uncertainty of if they'll be able to even get shipping companies to go, or if they can even open their own warehouses.)

My store's not closed, but it's open only to curbside pickup, and seeing as we've been told definitively to "stay home" we only get around four customers per day for that.

... It sure ate into what otherwise would have been amazing sales with Wildemount and new WizKids minis in the last few weeks, game-wise.


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## Michael O'Brien (Apr 1, 2020)

MOB from Chaosium here. Alliance is one of our biggest distributors to game stores, so this affects us directly. We're one of the companies Alliance has notified that they'll be delaying payments to; so we await more information about their payment plan with great interest. 

These are strange and difficult times, but we've made the decision to not reduce our headcount nor cut anyone's hours at Chaosium. Fortunately, our own fulfilment warehouses in the USA, UK, Australia, and Poland, are still able to ship out orders as normal, so purchases made directly on our website Chaosium.com remain unaffected for the time being. While delivery times might be disrupted or delayed, at present the only countries we definitively can't ship to are Norway and Switzerland. If these circumstances change we will update everyone.

Buying electronic versions of our products from Chaosium.com or DriveThruRPG is, of course, unaffected too. 

We get it though, if peoples' current circumstances mean this is something they can't afford right now. To help people in this period of self-isolation, we're putting up assorted Free Stuff on our website, and our line editors have produced an introductory primer on how to get started playing games online.

We continue to wish everyone all the best, until the Stars are Right again.


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## Cergorach (Apr 1, 2020)

Isn't this an opportunity for one-(wo)man shops to make some money? The post here is still running, the postal pickup service for businesses is still running. A small POD shop could do printing on it's own (as long as there are supplies) and ship to one-(wo)man stores directly, who can supply customers by post. So publisher => POD shop => store => customer. Publishers could even do some direct sales that way. Or you could do stuff directly from China (Aliexpress orders are arriving again), produce it there and let a distribution center so shipping from there...

People will need to be creative (and safe!), but there is also an opportunity for the very small business and folks out of work.

One issue could be international shipments (to certain), anything but regular post is going to end up sitting in port and being very expensive.

Overall this is going to be a big domino effect. People can't get to business X, business X goes out of business, people loose their job, no income, can't pay business Y, business Y goes out of business, repeat...


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## Morrus (Apr 1, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Isn't this an opportunity for one-(wo)man shops to make some money? The post here is still running, the postal pickup service for businesses is still running. A small POD shop could do printing on it's own (as long as there are supplies) and ship to one-(wo)man stores directly, who can supply customers by post. So publisher => POD shop => store => customer. Publishers could even do some direct sales that way.



DTRPG’s partner Lightning Source has stopped printing PoD cards for the time being. They’re still printing books, but that could change at any time.


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## Cergorach (Apr 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> DTRPG’s partner Lightning Source has stopped printing PoD cards for the time being. They’re still printing books, but that could change at any time.



Lightning Source is part of Ingram Content Group, this is not a small company...


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## Morrus (Apr 1, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Lightning Source is part of Ingram Content Group, this is not a small company...



OK. But they have stopped printing PoD cards due the pandemic. DTRPG is warning that books may follow suit.


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## Doc_Klueless (Apr 1, 2020)

DWChancellor said:


> I'm building up a list for if/when my local store opens back up.  They barely survived the last recession.



This is what I'm doing. I'll be buying things that I normally wouldn't get in physical form.


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## Morrus (Apr 1, 2020)

It's important to release the whole downhill stream for this. What's happening is this:

Game stores are closed --> game stores aren't paying the distributor --> distributor isn't paying publishers --> publishers struggle to pay employees and freelancers. In many cases for those small publishers at the end of that chain, this could be their only source of income.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 1, 2020)

Its going to be brutal.  I guarantee my local store is not going to survive this, they were barely hanging on as it was.   Thankfully Miniature Market should be able to weather this.


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## Morrus (Apr 1, 2020)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> I guarantee my local store is not going to survive this, they were barely hanging on as it was.



And that means your store might not pay for stock, which means everybody down the chain as far as the freelancers is screwed.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> And that means your store might not pay for stock, which means everybody down the chain as far as the freelancers is screwed.




Yep, though their stock had gotten so stale lately the impact will be a lot less than a really healthy store shutting down.  But the retail industry is going to see so many failings and bankruptcies its going to reverberate up and down the chain.  A lot of supplies are going to be left holding the bill, which will lead to some of them failing as well, which will push it on to the creators of course.  The longer the lockdown lasts the more devastated the retail market is going to be.  But even then we aren't going to see a true recovery until there is some kind of vaccine.  Hard times ahead. 

Well at least I just ordered some MDF from Noble Knight Games to help them out.

Sucks since my wargaming group meets there and its close by with a lot of tables.  Thats on hold for a while to say the least.


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## Lord_Blacksteel (Apr 1, 2020)

Jimmy Dick said:


> A stronger focus on digital publishing is going to be essential for the companies that pull through.




The thing is most smaller publishers already do digital - for the smallest I'd say it's their main channel. Everyone from Paizo to Green Ronin to Modiphius to most of the RPG names you can think of already have a significant digital product line. WOTC is really the only one that doesn't do PDFs of their current product line. That's been reported as being due to a) licensing agreements for video games as somehow someway blocking the publication of PDFs due to being an "electronic product" and b) piracy fears .. .which seems less likely these days but you never know. 



Jimmy Dick said:


> That makes me wonder how WotC will keep 5e moving forward. I don't waste my time with MTG stuff, so I don't know how their digital MTG is working for them, but unless they've got another product generating lots of money, I'd say WotC is in worse shape than some companies that have a strong focus on digital products.




WOTC being part of Hasbro and having a relatively small staff should be fine. The next 5E book is what, end of May/early June? It will sell one way or another.  They have big new physical MTG products coming (controversy for the win!) plus their newer online component, Arena, seems to be doing very well. I wouldn't worry about them just yet. The FLGS is going to get hammered first.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Apr 1, 2020)

These are going to be skinny cow years, bad years for economy, for all no on-line enternaiment industry, even for big fishes as Disney. This is not only closed shops, but also lots of fans who can't allow themself to spend so many money for their hobby because there are troubles with their jobs and the have to save.

Some 3PPs could be closed, or be bought by a biger fish, for example WotC.

If God wants things will be better after this summer, beause sunny and warmer days  help to stop this, or hopes to find a cure.


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## Morrus (Apr 1, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> These are going skinny cow years,



What does that mean?


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## LuisCarlos17f (Apr 1, 2020)

Skinny cows years are the years of bad economy and poverty. Haven't you readen Joseph's story in the Biblie with the Pharaon's dream about seven fat cows and seven skinny cows?


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## Morrus (Apr 1, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Haven't you readen Joseph's story in the Biblie with the Pharaon's dream about seven fat cows and seven skinny cows?



Don’t think so.


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## MoonSong (Apr 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Don’t think so.



@LuisCarlos17f  is trying to use a Spanish idiom, in Spanish we use "vacas flacas" to imply it is a bad year.


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 1, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Speaking as the owner of a Comic and Game store... stuff is rough out there right now.  I'm probably going to be able to ride it out, but we're losing at least several hundred dollars every day.  Our expenses will drop drastically with Diamond not shipping comics (which is why they're doing it, aside from the uncertainty of if they'll be able to even get shipping companies to go, or if they can even open their own warehouses.)
> 
> My store's not closed, but it's open only to curbside pickup, and seeing as we've been told definitively to "stay home" we only get around four customers per day for that.
> 
> ... It sure ate into what otherwise would have been amazing sales with Wildemount and new WizKids minis in the last few weeks, game-wise.



Damn. I wonder if you could deliver products to people’s doorsteps?

idk, I’m really worried for my locals. We have 3 in a metro area of less than half a million people. Them, the used bookstores, and other little shops like the costume store down the street from me...I don’t know. It’s gonna be rough.

I hope you get through it in one piece, neighbor.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 1, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Isn't this an opportunity for one-(wo)man shops to make some money? The post here is still running, the postal pickup service for businesses is still running.




Selling product "by post" for a small shop consists of _actually taking packages to a post office, and standing in line_. Does that sound safe to you? The more of us try to switch to that model, the longer the ques get. Sure, you can line 'em up six feet apart, but still, you're not exactly reducing risk for spreading illness by switching to selling by post than you would be by implementing a "one or two" people in the brick-and-mortar store (and most of those are being told to shut down.)

My point isn't that we shouldn't try to do some shipping - just that it's not quite as easy (during a pandemic) as just switching to shipping out. (Not that I mean to suggest that you thought it would be.)


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 1, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> 1) Damn. I wonder if you could deliver products to people’s doorsteps?
> 2) idk, I’m really worried for my locals. We have 3 in a metro area of less than half a million people. Them, the used bookstores, and other little shops like the costume store down the street from me...I don’t know. It’s gonna be rough.
> 3) I hope you get through it in one piece, neighbor.




1) I am going to look into doing that, actually!

2) I feel for them. Not everyone's little business is gonna make it, and I think that's very sad.

3) Thank you. I really appreciate it!


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## Cergorach (Apr 1, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Selling product "by post" for a small shop consists of _actually taking packages to a post office, and standing in line_. Does that sound safe to you?



Doesn't your postalservice offer pickup contracts for businesses? Going to the postaloffice to ship (many) packages is a bad idea. How do webstores do this, I doubt they go to the post office for a bunch of packages...


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 1, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Doesn't your postalservice offer pickup contracts for businesses? Going to the postaloffice to ship (many) packages is a bad idea. How do webstores do this, I doubt they go to the post office for a bunch of packages...




That's all about volume. If you do a LOT of shipping out, sure, it's worth paying for pick-ups. (Or if your customer base is okay with really expensive shipping costs, like some crazy e-bay people) but to ship out a few things here and there, or when you're getting started? Everyone I know has to go to the post office. I don't know how it is everywhere in the world, though, I admit.


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## MoonSong (Apr 1, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Isn't this an opportunity for one-(wo)man shops to make some money? The post here is still running, the postal pickup service for businesses is still running. A small POD shop could do printing on it's own (as long as there are supplies) and ship to one-(wo)man stores directly, who can supply customers by post. So publisher => POD shop => store => customer. Publishers could even do some direct sales that way. Or you could do stuff directly from China (Aliexpress orders are arriving again), produce it there and let a distribution center so shipping from there...



I can actually print and bound small books at a reduced price, but postage costs are very high in my country. So, I end up with a book/mag that costs cents to print but requires 4-8 dollars to mail.


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## Cergorach (Apr 1, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> That's all about volume. If you do a LOT of shipping out, sure, it's worth paying for pick-ups.



Have you actually checked that? I'm seeing €6,55 (ex. VAT) in buildup areas for pickup with a two hour window when they can pick it up. That's not per package, that's for a whole mailbag (those aren't small). If your small, you can do pickup once a week, if you so small you can't fill up a mailbag once a week, your too small to run a business.

We're going to get to situations where the big webstores can't ship anymore because distributors are closed and the depth of stock is limited for their operation. FLGS are sitting on a trove op product. So maybe ask a bit higher price for shipping. It's either that or no sales at all. THAT is what I mean by creative, business operating out of their (known) comfort zone... Or you can take the pickup shipping hit, some income is better then no income...

It of course depends on local options and prices, but I was surprised how cheap it is. Not that strange btw. There are already vans driving around picking up post all over town, so an additional stop shouldn't have to be that expensive...

@MoonSong Of course! Your located in the heart of the moon, I'm not surprised shipping is so expensive over there... ;-)


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 1, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Have you actually checked that?




Well, I admit I haven't checked into it _lately_, and that I absolutely _will_ be looking into all the options, but I helped one of my customers start an online comic store (I wan't worried about competition, as my customer-base is usually happy to come in), and as far as I know, he pays about $7 (Canadian, so 4.5 euros) per shipment, and has to do it at a post office, as the best possible price he could get here. I trust that he looked into it. I'm not talking about one comic in an envelope here, though. 

(I'll let you know if I find out I'm wrong.)

There's a reason why I'll probably start with driving around delivering stuff to customers myself! My time would normally be worth more money, but at least gas is cheap, and most of my customers live within 10 km of my store, I expect.


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## Votan (Apr 1, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Well, I admit I haven't checked into it _lately_, and that I absolutely _will_ be looking into all the options, but I helped one of my customers start an online comic store (I wan't worried about competition, as my customer-base is usually happy to come in), and as far as I know, he pays about $7 (Canadian, so 4.5 euros) per shipment, and has to do it at a post office, as the best possible price he could get here. I trust that he looked into it. I'm not talking about one comic in an envelope here, though.




I suspect it will depend a fair bit on the local postal rules and any adaptions that are made to them as time passes. In Canada they are talking about July as optimistic, and I suspect we'll see a lot of innovation if it continues to December in how businesses operate.


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## MoonSong (Apr 1, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> @MoonSong Of course! Your located in the heart of the moon, I'm not surprised shipping is so expensive over there... ;-)





Spoiler: The heart of the moon



That is the meaning of the country's name -and the capital city, and the valley surrounding that city and the state where that valley is, and the name of the language the name is in, and one of the names of the ruling tribe before the European conquest, but more like they took the name of the place after they conquered the other tribes-.
In - co
the heart (ok, this one is actually core, center or navel but the idea is the same)- xictli
Moon - Meztli

Now, in this language compounds are made with the first syllable of each root. So, Metzxicco

Bonus fact, the ancestral name of the land Anahuac, means "The land between the waters(the oceans)" So middle land or Middle Earth.



However not all hope is lost, there is a local provider that can be quite helpful. They offer the Amazon treatment, you can send product to their warehouses and they provide the delivery, you just need to provide volume. If I have enough money after this all settles and Diamond -or a replacement- opens again, I could see myself opening a small mail service for comics and rpg books.


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 1, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Well, I admit I haven't checked into it _lately_, and that I absolutely _will_ be looking into all the options, but I helped one of my customers start an online comic store (I wan't worried about competition, as my customer-base is usually happy to come in), and as far as I know, he pays about $7 (Canadian, so 4.5 euros) per shipment, and has to do it at a post office, as the best possible price he could get here. I trust that he looked into it. I'm not talking about one comic in an envelope here, though.
> 
> (I'll let you know if I find out I'm wrong.)
> 
> There's a reason why I'll probably start with driving around delivering stuff to customers myself! My time would normally be worth more money, but at least gas is cheap, and most of my customers live within 10 km of my store, I expect.



Definitely stay in touch with the local post office, as they are well practiced as an organization at adapting to adverse situations.

They may offer safe drop-off solutions, either by appointment (no line) or have areas set uplike at banks right now, where lines are 6-10 feet apart, even if that means wrapping around the building, or even drop off services where you set the whole thing up and pay online and they send someone out with a mailbag, or something else more creative than any of that.

But like you say, gas is fairly cheap right now. Curbside personal dropoff is a hell of an op for maintaining customer loyalty and generating continued sales!


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## wingsandsword (Apr 1, 2020)

Lord_Blacksteel said:


> WOTC is really the only one that doesn't do PDFs of their current product line. That's been reported as being due to a) licensing agreements for video games as somehow someway blocking the publication of PDFs due to being an "electronic product" and b) piracy fears .. .which seems less likely these days but you never know.




I've heard that too.  That excuse gets sillier every year.

PDF sales of RPG books have been a "thing" for almost 20 years now.  Any contract on the issue written in at least the last decade that didn't differentiate between e-books and video games would be painfully negligent in its wording.

You'd think that the next time D&D product licenses are being negotiated, that the license for video games would stipulate that e-book/pdf versions of tabletop D&D products would not fall under that license and WotC would retain those rights.  It would almost certainly be a trivial thing to add as a clause to a licensing agreement the next time licensing out those rights became an issue.


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## CleverNickName (Apr 1, 2020)

I've put it off long enough.  I'm picking up the Zeitgeist PDFs this weekend.


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## Eyes of Nine (Apr 2, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Doesn't your postalservice offer pickup contracts for businesses? Going to the postaloffice to ship (many) packages is a bad idea. How do webstores do this, I doubt they go to the post office for a bunch of packages...




Due to 9/11, in US any envelope over a certain weight, and any box package over a certain size (maybe all) have to be dropped off at a USPS window.


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Apr 2, 2020)

I think I need to order the games from Miniature Market that I want before it's too late. 

One of my FLGS' was trying to do curb side assistance but our mayor put a squash to that, saying that all non-essential places must close down for the time being. Which really stunk because I wanted to help my FLGS out.


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## Morrus (Apr 2, 2020)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> One of my FLGS' was trying to do curb side assistance but our mayor put a squash to that, saying that all non-essential places must close down for the time being. Which really stunk because I wanted to help my FLGS out.



It's the right call. We're down to non-essential nationally.


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## Eyes of Nine (Apr 2, 2020)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> I think I need to order the games from Miniature Market that I want before it's too late.
> 
> One of my FLGS' was trying to do curb side assistance but our mayor put a squash to that, saying that all non-essential places must close down for the time being. Which really stunk because I wanted to help my FLGS out.




You can buy gift certificates with them (I do it by paypal-ing them some money, and then they put it in a bag for me once this is all over).


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## happyhermit (Apr 2, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Well, I admit I haven't checked into it _lately_, and that I absolutely _will_ be looking into all the options, but I helped one of my customers start an online comic store (I wan't worried about competition, as my customer-base is usually happy to come in), and as far as I know, he pays about $7 (Canadian, so 4.5 euros) per shipment, and has to do it at a post office, as the best possible price he could get here. I trust that he looked into it. I'm not talking about one comic in an envelope here, though.
> ...




I had to check this myself lately, pickup is really cheap, Canada post wants $3.50 CAD for one-time unlimited number of packages, or $7.50/wk-free depending on how much you ship in a year. Now, whether it's the best option in the current situation ie; liability, cost, essential-ness, etc. that's impossible to say right now.

Parcel pickup and delivery for businesses | Business


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 2, 2020)

happyhermit said:


> I had to check this myself lately, pickup is really cheap, Canada post wants $3.50 CAD for one-time unlimited number of packages, or $7.50/wk-free depending on how much you ship in a year. Now, whether it's the best option in the current situation ie; liability, cost, essential-ness, etc. that's impossible to say right now.
> 
> Parcel pickup and delivery for businesses | Business




Hey, that's not bad. Thanks! (Agree with your last sentence, too. Still a lot to ponder.)


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## Rygar (Apr 5, 2020)

Jimmy Dick said:


> Hopefully, the stores will qualify for the loan money from the government, but I don't know how that is going to work. One major fact remains, the industry is going to go through a major period of change. A stronger focus on digital publishing is going to be essential for the companies that pull through. That makes me wonder how WotC will keep 5e moving forward. I don't waste my time with MTG stuff, so I don't know how their digital MTG is working for them, but unless they've got another product generating lots of money, I'd say WotC is in worse shape than some companies that have a strong focus on digital products.
> 
> Gen Con might very well still happen and if so, a lot of companies are going to be praying for good con attendance so as to sell product. Some of the smaller cons that actually get to happen might very well see more than the usual publisher presence if the companies think they can move physical product at those cons.




I'm very late to the party, but I've been thinking about this topic for a while.

I'm strongly of the opinion that this will be catastrophic to the store model and this tipped over a market that was already on the edge of failing.  My reasoning is based on the fact that the gameshop Industry was completely dependent on Magic the Gathering.

So once Covid passes, there's all of these stores that need to stay afloat.  People will not flock right back to stores the moment it clears.  They'll get their core audience back mostly, but their casual audience won't return for awhile, if they return at all.  Take recent studies with movie theaters as an example, pegging attendance for movies at between 30% and 70% of the pre-Covid volumes when they reopen.

Why is that a big deal?  Because Magic the Gathering requires minimum volumes of attendees.  You can't play if you have less than 8 people for an FNM, tournaments with less than around 16 people are pretty pointless.  So if the playgroup in a store was 10 people, and only 7 show, then 10 customers are lost.

It's a huge issue for gamestores, if Magic the Gathering attendance stays down for just a few months, they're bankrupt.  D&D and Boardgames don't bring in significant cash flow like Mtg does.  Comics won't save them, like they did when Urza's collapsed Magic rapidly, that Industry has been driving out customers for awhile.

Those loans won't save them either.  Taking on additional debt to stay afloat while they're waiting for people to come back won't save them, it means greater expenses even when they do come back, assuming they come back.

Gamestores have been a failing model for years now, this is just going to accelerate the inevitable, the collapse of the model everywhere except the very largest dense cities.


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## happyhermit (Apr 5, 2020)

ETA: Sorry for the unnecessary sarcasm



Rygar said:


> ...
> Gamestores have been a failing model for years now, this is just going to accelerate the inevitable, the collapse of the model everywhere except the very largest dense cities.




Yeah, the past decade+ of constant growth in their sales has really shown the collapse is inevitable... Game stores are less dependent on CCGs than before, as Boardgames and RPGs have grown much faster. Out here in the middle of nowhere we have game stores cropping up all over and existing game stores expanding, and apparently the number of stores is increasing on the whole, not just here.


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## Jimmy Dick (Apr 5, 2020)

Rygar said:


> I'm very late to the party, but I've been thinking about this topic for a while.
> 
> I'm strongly of the opinion that this will be catastrophic to the store model and this tipped over a market that was already on the edge of failing.  My reasoning is based on the fact that the gameshop Industry was completely dependent on Magic the Gathering.
> 
> ...




I think some stores will survive because they're in better financial shape, but others will close down permanently. You're right, this is going to have a huge negative impact on the FLGS across the country. It's going to hit some publishers pretty hard too. Most of them have a better chance at recovering though. Retail is a changing industry anyway and the FLGS that emerge out of this might end up diversifying beyond the game industry. 

We're going to see and have to adapt to a lot of changes when this is over. History shows us significant events like this create tremendous social changes and this one is pretty big. I also don't expect to see the economy spring back magically. It's going to be a lot slower coming back than many people think.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 5, 2020)

Rygar said:


> Gamestores have been a failing model for years now, this is just going to accelerate the inevitable, the collapse of the model everywhere except the very largest dense cities.




Thanks for making me feel better about the future of my store! (Sorry for the unnecessary sarcasm).  

On a brighter note, my particular FLGS had a record year in 2019 with highest sales in the 27 years I've been in business. It was actually the _only_ year in the 27 that I didn't worry about it's future prospects. (We've always done well, aside from the late '90's, where I had a 2nd job, but I always worry anyway.)

...Obviously this event has been far worse than anything I ever worried about - but at least I'm not alone!



happyhermit said:


> Game stores are less dependent on CCGs than before, as Boardgames and RPGs have grown much faster.




Yeah, my store doesn't rely on MTG at all, I mean, we sell it of course, but it's just one aspect. I think I might sell more $ worth of 5e hardcovers in a year, but I'd have to double-check that. At any rate, with Board Games at an all-time high, and D&D, Pathfinder, WizKids minis, and Warhammer, we do well (when we are not forced by pandemics to be closed). Games is only a third of my store, Comics is two-thirds, and what we've lost in slumping new comics sales, we've been making up in increased back-issue sales.



Jimmy Dick said:


> I think some stores will survive because they're in better financial shape, but others will close down permanently. You're right, this is going to have a huge negative impact on the FLGS across the country.




Across the WORLD, my friend.



Jimmy Dick said:


> We're going to see and have to adapt to a lot of changes when this is over. History shows us significant events like this create tremendous social changes and this one is pretty big. I also don't expect to see the economy spring back magically. It's going to be a lot slower coming back than many people think.




One thing I've already noticed, and who knows how long this will last, is an increased desire to "support local". Our biggest competitor is AMAZON, really (undercut us vastly on D&D books and Graphic Novels), but even now a lot of customers who may have normally ordered online are placing orders with us out of a sense of community. This social change might end up being the thing that saves us.

Of course, a big push to digital will take some of that away, too, and I think that's pretty inevitable. 

Who knows what the future holds. All I know is that I will never give up. I like my store!


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## Jimmy Dick (Apr 5, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> One thing I've already noticed, and who knows how long this will last, is an increased desire to "support local". Our biggest competitor is AMAZON, really (undercut us vastly on D&D books and Graphic Novels), but even now a lot of customers who may have normally ordered online are placing orders with us out of a sense of community. This social change might end up being the thing that saves us.
> 
> Of course, a big push to digital will take some of that away, too, and I think that's pretty inevitable.
> 
> Who knows what the future holds. All I know is that I will never give up. I like my store!




Glad to see you are not giving up! That's always important in the neverending battle to survive and thrive in the retail world. I agree that Amazon and online shopping is the biggest competitor you will face. I also think that those who use proactive thinking and planning will have a major advantage when they reopen. I organize PFS2 game days for my store in Columbia, so I'm already preparing to lay the groundwork for a big day when we can go back and play. 

Interestingly, that store focuses pretty hard on minis, dice, paints, etc. type point of purchase items used in gaming. I think they make a lot more money from those types of things than they do on the books themselves. We've been picking up plenty of Pathfinder Second Edition books from them, but I always see our players picking up $20 or $30 worth of dice and minis every game day.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 5, 2020)

Jimmy Dick said:


> Interestingly, that store focuses pretty hard on minis, dice, paints, etc. type point of purchase items used in gaming. I think they make a lot more money from those types of things than they do on the books themselves. We've been picking up plenty of Pathfinder Second Edition books from them, but I always see our players picking up $20 or $30 worth of dice and minis every game day.




Just before everyone went into isolation, we had a HUGE uptick in our sales on miniatures, paints, and painting accessories. A LOT of people had the idea to stay at home and paint minis. A good use of their time, I'd say.


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## Morrus (Apr 5, 2020)

It’s unfortunate that everybody is passing the pain down the line, because the end of that line is freelancers. I would say if there is some way to pay suppliers, try to do it. Even if it means borrowing.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 5, 2020)

Morrus said:


> It’s unfortunate that everybody is passing the pain down the line, because the end of that line is freelancers. I would say if there is some way to pay suppliers, try to do it. Even if it means borrowing.




I've been having a hard time understanding why so many businesses have had trouble paying their bills already. I completely understand why people will have trouble next month, or the month after that, but it seems like a lot of stuff has been run pretty darn close to the wire if they can't pay bills _already_. Diamond Comics Distributors told the comics publishers that they weren't going to pay them... the same week that they stopped shipping new comics. ONE week and they are out of money. Seems quick to me. Maybe the owner should reconsider his mansion.


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## Morrus (Apr 5, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Diamond Comics Distributors told the comics publishers that they weren't going to pay them... the same week that they stopped shipping new comics.



Not just comics -- remember that Diamond distributes tabletop RPGs too. And Alliance - same ownership - is one of the major RPG distributors.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 5, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Not just comics -- remember that Diamond distributes tabletop RPGs too. And Alliance - same ownership - is one of the major RPG distributors.




Oh, I know! You're right, of course. (Though, I've never liked Alliance - I use other games distributors myself, so they don't come immediately to mind when I think of Diamond, it's true.)


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## Votan (Apr 5, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> I've been having a hard time understanding why so many businesses have had trouble paying their bills already. I completely understand why people will have trouble next month, or the month after that, but it seems like a lot of stuff has been run pretty darn close to the wire if they can't pay bills _already_. Diamond Comics Distributors told the comics publishers that they weren't going to pay them... the same week that they stopped shipping new comics. ONE week and they are out of money. Seems quick to me. Maybe the owner should reconsider his mansion.




I wonder how much of this is delaying bills to try and hold cash in reserve to survive the multiple month freeze of non-essential retail. If it works out, maybe some of this outstanding debt will be worked out quickly?


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 5, 2020)

Votan said:


> I wonder how much of this is delaying bills to try and hold cash in reserve to survive the multiple month freeze of non-essential retail. If it works out, maybe some of this outstanding debt will be worked out quickly?




That's probably a lot of it, you're right. No one knows how much money they will need in one, two, three month's time. No one wants to spend it now, in case they need it later. That makes sense. Because if they don't have the money _now_... I hate to see how they'll be doing by _then_.


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## Votan (Apr 5, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> That's probably a lot of it, you're right. No one knows how much money they will need in one, two, three month's time. No one wants to spend it now, in case they need it later. That makes sense. Because if they don't have the money _now_... I hate to see how they'll be doing by _then_.




I think you are absolutely correct. If they don't have any cash on hand right now than I presume they are already dead after a month or two without revenue, unless the government provides an awesome bailout.


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## Morrus (Apr 5, 2020)

Votan said:


> I wonder how much of this is delaying bills to try and hold cash in reserve to survive the multiple month freeze of non-essential retail.



The problem with that is that you’re passing your problems on to somebody else (ultimately, a freelancer at the end of the chain waiting for payments to buy groceries with). Delaying bills doesn’t make the problem go away, it just makes it the next person in line’s problem.

When I have to pay my freelancers, I pay them whatever. If I have to whip out my credit card and go into debt because my distributor didn’t pay me, because stores didn’t pay them, I’ll still pay my freelancers.

It’s not easy for anybody.


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## Votan (Apr 5, 2020)

Morrus said:


> The problem with that is that you’re passing your problems on to somebody else (ultimately, a freelancer at the end of the chain waiting for payments to buy groceries with). Delaying bills doesn’t make the problem go away, it just makes it the next person in line’s problem.
> 
> When I have to pay my freelancers, I pay them whatever. If I have to whip out my credit card because my distributor didn’t pay me, because stores didn’t pay them, I’ll still pay my freelancers.




Oh, to be clear, I am trying to explain the behavior not to justify it. Many people do things under pressure that don't show them at their best. But I think that is the most likely scenario for why the bills stopped being paid so fast. I hope freelancers remember your better behavior when the market restarts.


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## Eltab (Apr 5, 2020)

After dawdling for a while, I pulled the trigger on two Dark Sun real-paper books with which to plan out a campaign.  Noble Knight and somebody through Amazon got my money.  Whatever I buy next (waiting for end of "non-essential business" suppression) will go through my FLGS, so they can claim a cut.

Fitz, I'd like to run a purchase through your hands, too.  Can you provide contact information to browse your website?  (Not sure of EnWorld policy about such request / action.)


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## Morrus (Apr 5, 2020)

Eltab said:


> Fitz, I'd like to run a purchase through your hands, too.  Can you provide contact information to browse your website?  (Not sure of EnWorld policy about such request / action.)



If it’s currently in print, buy from the publisher direct at this time if you can. They’re not currently getting paid otherwise. And if given a choice between a secondary seller and the creator, go to the creator if you can, so they get the full sale price.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 5, 2020)

Morrus said:


> The problem with that is that you’re passing your problems on to somebody else (ultimately, a freelancer at the end of the chain waiting for payments to buy groceries with). Delaying bills doesn’t make the problem go away, it just makes it the next person in line’s problem.
> 
> When I have to pay my freelancers, I pay them whatever. If I have to whip out my credit card and go into debt because my distributor didn’t pay me, because stores didn’t pay them, I’ll still pay my freelancers.
> 
> It’s not easy for anybody.




I'm with you. My store is small enough to only have myself and three employees. But I'll pay my employees before I pay myself, because I know that I have savings, a credit rating (I can get a loan), room on my credit cards, and other ways to get by. They are younger and/or poorer than I am and therefore will get screwed a lot faster. If _I_ can do it, and I'm decidedly lower-middle class, you'd think some of the CEOs of the bigger companies can help out a bit, wouldn't you? I guess we'll see.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 5, 2020)

Morrus said:


> If it’s currently in print, buy from the publisher direct at this time if you can. They’re not currently getting paid otherwise. And if given a choice between a secondary seller and the creator, go to the creator if you can, so they get the full sale price.




This _is_ good advice, even if it cuts me out! I think it depends on the publisher when it comes to how much you'd be helping out the "little guy", but the creators are almost always the littlest guy - if you can support creators directly (they often have copies of their work, even if they work for a big publisher - that they get the full value out of selling.)


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## Morrus (Apr 5, 2020)

FitzTheRuke said:


> This _is_ good advice, even if it cuts me out! I think it depends on the publisher when it comes to how much you'd be helping out the "little guy"



Oh, of course. If we’re talking Hasbro or the like, don’t worry about it. They’ll be fine. But most of the RPG industry is tiny companies of 1-3 employees.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 5, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Oh, of course. If we’re talking Hasbro or the like, don’t worry about it. They’ll be fine. But most of the RPG industry is tiny companies of 1-3 employees.




Certainly when the Publisher and the Creator are the same person (or a team) then absolutely - support them! No one has more love for the subject than that.


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## pming (Apr 6, 2020)

Hiya!

The only silver lining I can see coming from this (I'm trying to be a "glass half-full" guy here...) is that less RPG stuff will result in more DM's using their own imaginations and making their own stuff up, and more Players suggesting ideas for new spells, races, abilities, etc that they think would be cool to roleplay with.

What sucks the most, to me, is knowing that there are families of "commoners" who are getting hit hard; the designer? Sure. The owner? Yup. But who I always think of is the other folks. The ones behind the scenes. The secretary who handles all the orders that come in. The warehouse workers who pick stuff out and package them up for shipment. The delivery driver who drops off 50lb boxes of books/comics/toys to the stores all day long. Those people are just as important as the store owners and the writers/designers/artists. I hope they all manage to come out of this thing alive (quite literally, in this case I guess). 

So..CHEERS! To the unsung heroes that lurk in the shadows, keeping the gears of RPG'ing and general geekdom alive! 

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Knight Terrain (Apr 6, 2020)

@Morrus 
Knight Terrain would love to be an affiliate of your company and place links to your products on our site. Send me an email at knightterrain@gmail.com if you are interested.
You can check out our website at:





						Knight Terrain - Building Dreams
					

At Knight Terrain we teach you how to build your own tabletop gaming terrain environments for RPG and war gaming.




					knightterrain.siterubix.com


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## MGibster (Apr 6, 2020)

I happen to like the FLGS here in Little Rock.  I make most of my purchases through them because I think their customer service is aces.  As of today they're still open though they've cancelled all events and closed down their gaming area to the public.  I've gone there twice in the last three weeks spending about $130 to stock up on paints and supplies so I could finally get around to painting my Space Marines.  I don't know how they're doing overall but I plan on continuing to shop there for as long as I can.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 6, 2020)

pming said:


> ... The warehouse workers who pick stuff out and package them up for shipment. The delivery driver who drops off 50lb boxes of books/comics/toys to the stores all day long.




I wholeheartedly agree with the main thrust of what you're saying.  However, (and it's a small however) warehouse workers and delivery drivers are doing just fine (work-wise), as far as I can tell. Of course, they are endangering their health in some cases, so there's that...

Technically, not _everyone_ is suffering, economy-wise. Places like Walmart and Costco and other grocery stores and supply chains are raking in money from panic-shoppers. The employees risk their health for minimum wage (in a lot of cases), but they're not out of work. Shipping and delivery is the same.

... Though if you're specifically thinking of the comic or game industry warehouse-workers, yeah, I think a lot of them might be getting the axe.


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## happyhermit (Apr 9, 2020)

One of my "Local" stores has been doing curbside and "Drive Through" for a while. Health and or legal ramifications aside, it seems like they are doing decent business, though apparently puzzles are the hot commodity these days (I have heard that from others too).

Mission: Fun & Games Newsletter - Easter Edition


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## Eyes of Nine (Apr 9, 2020)

happyhermit said:


> One of my "Local" stores has been doing curbside and "Drive Through" for a while. Health and or legal ramifications aside, it seems like they are doing decent business, though apparently puzzles are the hot commodity these days (I have heard that from others too).
> 
> Mission: Fun & Games Newsletter - Easter Edition



Wow, awesome!


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## LordEntrails (Apr 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> If it’s currently in print, buy from the publisher direct at this time if you can. They’re not currently getting paid otherwise. And if given a choice between a secondary seller and the creator, go to the creator if you can, so they get the full sale price.



I don't know... I mean I get this. But the distributor/secondary seller still has bills to pay, and employees to pay.

So skipping middle-men helps the creator/source, but it doesn't help the rest of the supply chain. 

Take a look at your original post, at one point you say buy direct, then at the end you say buy from your FLGS. FLGS store-owners are just another middle man, part of the supply chain that can be skipped.

I don't have a moral/ethical answer, but it's not as simple as 'buy direct'


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