# stop sleight of hand pickpocketing?



## NEXxREX (Oct 8, 2011)

well im playing in a game, and our rogue is an @$$....he constantly uses slight of hand to pick our items and other things. so since im a caster i dont have spot to counter the annoying as hell BS, i was wondering if anyone has anything that could counter it?

i know about portable holes and HHH/bags of holding. but our DM alrdy ruled with a DC high enough he can actually lift the whole damn thing even off our backs..........


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## kitcik (Oct 8, 2011)

Alarm spell followed by death to the rogue? <aka "boot to the head">

(naturally followed  by the looting of the body thereof)

This is only tangential, but hilarious:

[ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5306888653621817243"]World of Warcraft Boot to the head! Funny![/ame]


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 8, 2011)

Leave the group.  Groups that tolerate inter-party bs like that aren't worth your time.  Or just kill the bastard in his sleep.  ...The player's character, I mean.

There are plenty of creative things you can do to screw with him.  The simplest way to ctach him in the act would probably just be to cast Alarm on one of your valuable but easy to pickpocket shiny things.  Exclude yourself from setting it off, and keep it in your backback so the area of effect of the emanation is blocked.  Until the rogue sticks his hand in your pouch and touches it, setting off a loud shoplifter siren.  You then have proof he's a no good thief and have a legitimate reason to kill him in his sleep and/or plot against him with the rest of the party, if you're worried your DM would say killing him in his sleep without catching him is "metagaming."

If you're higher level, there are stronger spells and cursed items you could consider, too.  My favorite would be a bag of devouring.  Even if he lifts it off you instead of just fumbling through it at the instance of theft, he's going to try and see what prizes he snagged eventually.  Hopefully with you within earshot of his screams of shock and pain so you can give him a lil' push. 

You need to try and figure out if the DM is his buddy or not.  Allowing him to get away with this stuff, I'd think they're on friendly terms, though it's possible this is just an "old school" DM.  If you don't think the DM would tip the player off, by all means inform him of your plans/countermeasures.  If you suspect otherwise...write what your plans are on a piece of paper beforehand and keep the paper face down at the table.  When you proudly declare the world of pain the rogue is in and they say you nevr claimed you were doing that, whip out your pre-made plans that you were hiding because you didn't trust the DM.

Again, I think you're better off just finding better people to game with than trying to outdecieve and "defeat" them.


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## Greenfield (Oct 8, 2011)

I've seen this before.  We call it the Tasslehof syndrome.

Our solution was to warn the PC once, then execute him when he ignored the warning.

As for how to stop...

Traps.  Magical ones work.  _Magic Mouth_ can be fun, particularly if the DM is down with a little creativity.  Consider placing the spell on your pouch, with the trigger being "If opened or handled by person X".  The words it should say?  Make it bark and snarl like a rabid dog.  Because, according to the spell, it will move as appropriate for the words spoke, you should be able to make the opening of the pouch slaver and pretend to snap and bite at the thief.  

Yeah, I know, that's a bit over the top for what is supposed to be a special effect, and it certainly won't do any damage, but like I said it calls for a DM who's down with a bit of creativity.

Besides, it's cheaper than a _Bag of Devouring_.  Still, the BoD combines traps and execution, so I'd seriously keep my eye open for one.

(BTW:  I'm serious.  We killed the PC.  And when the same player tried it again with another one, we killed that one too.  There's nothing like being in combat and reaching for an item you need, only to find that your party Rogue was playing a prank, and his sense of humor just got someone killed.  We sped up the process, and made sure the death was the appropriate one.)


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## Ranger19k (Oct 8, 2011)

First of all, allowing PCs to steal from other PCs is a huge mistake IMHO.  It just tends to piss everyone off, and happens to be a pet peeve of mine.  Your DM should SERIOUSLY reconsider this policy.

In the absence of reconsidering, there should absolutely be a no-tolerance policy among the other players.  If the rogue does it, he does it at his own risk. Saying "I'm just acting in character" (the automatic response) is pretty much crap when it comes to these things, but if that's what he goes with, then honestly think about how everyone else would act in character the first time the rogue is caught or a missing item is found in his gear.  - And pinning the rogue down and tossing all of his gear would absolutely be the first thing that I did when I discovered anything missing.
   I don't care what the victim's alignment is, when the rogue gets caught, he would at the very least be expelled from the party and turned over to the authorities, but quite probably killed on the spot by anyone with chaotic or non-good tendencies.  Either way it makes these rogue tendencies a one-shot action.  He can try it, but once he gets caught, that character is gone for good, and if the actual player wants to continue with the group, he can get busy rolling up a new character to replace the persona-non-grate rogue.

I'd get the rest of the party to agree to these repercussions and then explain them, either in game or outside game, to the rogue.  If he continues being an ass, then let him reap the consequences.

Edit: Hmm, guess I type slow.  I agree with the two guys above me 100%.


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## was (Oct 8, 2011)

explosive runes are good


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## RUMBLETiGER (Oct 8, 2011)

Belt of Hidden Pockets from Magic Item Compendium should protect your smaller valuables.


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## Tovec (Oct 8, 2011)

NEXxREX said:


> i know about portable holes and HHH/bags of holding. but our DM alrdy ruled with a DC high enough he can actually lift the whole damn thing even off our backs..........




Just a few minor things.

1. If the bag of holding has more than a normal backpack retrieving items is a full round action. (I'm not sure if this is only in Pathfinder, I only have my Core available not my DMG.)
2. Yes the rogue can sleight of hand a bag or a portable hole whole. This isn't even a remarkably difficult DC.
3. If the DC is high enough you can sleight of a hand a PERSON so really the skill may need to be re-examined.
4. Beyond that, if things continually go missing then have everyone turn out their pockets. If this happens more than once KILL THE ROGUE.


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## slwoyach (Oct 9, 2011)

Carry around a bag of devouring.  Or simply destroy him with the absolute most potent magic you have available as a warning against all future misconduct.  Seriously, what kind of idiot rogue messes with a caster?


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## RUMBLETiGER (Oct 9, 2011)

Traditional Solution:

Cut of a hand.  He can quest for _Regeneration_ afterward.


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## the Jester (Oct 9, 2011)

Since you're a caster you don't have Spot, but you probably have a high Int or Wis. After you catch him- alarm, explosive runes, glyph of warding, sepia snake sigil, whatever- give him one warning, and let him know that if anyone finds anything missing, you will execute him. Then, when he inevitably can't keep his hands to himself, execute him. If the player whinges, tell him to play a character that doesn't screw the rest of the party over- or don't bother letting him join the party.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 9, 2011)

was said:


> explosive runes are good




Not when the person triggering them has Evasion.


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## Trance-Zg (Oct 9, 2011)

Trap the backpack with sonic lance spell from SpC.


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## the Jester (Oct 9, 2011)

I think you get the idea- warn him once, then kill him. Don't accept "Nuh-uh, you didn't see me take it!" Counter with "My wisdom is 18 and we caught you before."

Kill him or boot him from the party. Don't show any tolerance for this. He won't stop.


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## NEXxREX (Oct 9, 2011)

hes not bad but iv played with him in other campaigns, right now hes a githzerai lv 2 rogue, and he is a pain with skills, (sleight of hand which is broken as hell as far as the dc's go, move silently/hide, and tumble) and being a dread necro lv 3 i cant really stop him from messing with me cause i "dont know" what happened to my stuff (not to mention my limited spell list). now they dont know im a necro and my items are going to supplement alot of my lack of casting ability, and being items are essential to me (especially when our dm makes necromancy hated throughout the world) if my items start disappearing then its gonna screw me around to no end, im pretty much preparing to take him out if necessary.

but i found the third eye aware in MIC which give a +10 to spot for only 10k (which iv almost saved up, and it cant be stolen) and i can supplement alot of these low lv spells with scrolls which are relatively easy to find (btw were playing freeport campaign so in a city of pirates its something i can say im worried about without metagaming) but i was also thinking about putting one lv in rogue, if i can tumble him for a d/c of 20 (and as a cat folk i have +5 to dex....yes im a catfolk necro...with a few pts in it i could deny his dex if it ever came to a fight, and ranged touch attacks are easy when you have to hit a 10.) but when my amulet of NA +2 and ring of protection +2 went missing i was pretty P/O. and iv seen him mess with others in the party and its all about opportunity so if i beef up my spot and start seeing him doing things ill stop him from messing with me and i can also get past his disguise i can figure out hes not from our plane and get a banishment scroll for about 2.5k, which would end it right there. i was also considering a wand of hold person for only 4.5k as well


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## RainOfSteel (Oct 9, 2011)

NEXxREX said:


> i cant really stop him from messing with me cause i "dont know" what happened to my stuff (not to mention my limited spell list).



You're in a party with a rogue.  Your suspect list is limited.

Buy some small caltrops, cover them with deep black soot, and fill your pouches with them.  The next time he steals from you, he'll hurt his hands (he better not have magic gloves protecting his hands at level 2), bleed all over, and coat himself with soot on top of that (mixing in with the blood).  Let him try to explain it away.

Hire someone to shadow you and spot the thief in action.  It shouldn't be that expensive.


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## RUMBLETiGER (Oct 9, 2011)

You're a Dread Necro and you can't justify slaying an ally upon the slightest suspicion?  You're playing Dread Necro Wrong.

Ask your DM how much a mousetrap would cost in game.  Line your pockets.

Seriously... Dread Nacro dude.  Glare at him, that should end it.


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## kitcik (Oct 10, 2011)

RUMBLETiGER said:


> You're a Dread Necro and you can't justify slaying an ally upon the slightest suspicion?  You're playing Dread Necro Wrong.
> 
> Ask your DM how much a mousetrap would cost in game.  Line your pockets.
> 
> Seriously... Dread Nacro dude.  Glare at him, that should end it.




I think his stealing was really just a cry of "I want to be a zombie please!"


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## Dandu (Oct 10, 2011)

Perhaps you should shake the rogue's hand for stealing so well.


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## NEXxREX (Oct 10, 2011)

RUMBLETiGER said:


> You're a Dread Necro and you can't justify slaying an ally upon the slightest suspicion?  You're playing Dread Necro Wrong.
> 
> Ask your DM how much a mousetrap would cost in game.  Line your pockets.
> 
> Seriously... Dread Necro dude.  Glare at him, that should end it.





my first problem is were in freeport...a pirate city so w/o meta gaming literally anyone could have done it.

any my main problem is that its a world that necromancers are particularly hunted down, no one likes them, literally everyone and their brother doesn't like them even other evil people (i think my DM just wanted to mess with me cause i wanted to play a necro). but im gonna end up buying the third eye aware (+10 to spot) and once i catch him im going to cast HOLD PERSON in his sleep, and have a little chat. if i see him mess with any of our party hes done pure and simple. i mean i dont like intimidating other party members because i want them to be free to do what their characters would do and i want them to enjoy the game but hes pretty much forcing my hand, and push comes to shove i can cast things that would make him crap himself.

thank you everyone for your help and input and those bags of devouring seem very fun 

-NEX


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 10, 2011)

His fun shouldn't be coming at other players' expenses.


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## RUMBLETiGER (Oct 10, 2011)

NEXxREX said:


> i mean i dont like intimidating other party members...



See below.


NEXxREX said:


> because i want them to be free to do what their characters would do and i want them to enjoy the game...



IF he can RP his character as a Rogue who picks pockets, you can be a Dread Necromancer who intimidates characters who cause irritation. Or suspicion. Or who look/walk/eat/sneeze funny.  

If you want to.


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## Michael Silverbane (Oct 10, 2011)

Any time the character acts out, slap his player in the mouth.


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## Jimlock (Oct 10, 2011)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=668bqiB662o]PICK POCKETS IN CHINA - YouTube[/ame]


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## Ranger19k (Oct 10, 2011)

China's surveillance system gives the state a +40 spot check.  Better be a lot more skilled than those guys to pull it off.....


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## airwalkrr (Oct 12, 2011)

Start talking about how much fun it would be to have his character serve you as a minion in the afterlife. Then make good on your threat. It doesn't have to be because he stole from you. After all, you never knew he was stealing from you. You're a dread necromancer, and that's what dread necromancers do.

As good as any defense the rogue might give for what he's doing.

Considering the campaign is in Freeport, it might be a good idea to invest in a phenomenal Spot score anyway though. If your DM allows retraining from PH2, then take Alertness and Skill Focus: Spot and max out ranks in Spot, even if they are only cross-class. After you catch him doing it and make him pay the consequences, retrain the feats and skill points. By that time you should have enough tricks to keep him away.

Trap the soul has always been my favorite anti-theft device.


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## Mirror (Oct 12, 2011)

Man, you guys are just mean. I'm not even playing in that campaign but I can tell people are sterotyping. I played and seen played other classes as pickpockets, including a druid, a wizard, and a paladin, of all things. Just because there's a rogue in the group doesn't mean automatically the rogue robbed you.
 I WILL say though, that a pickpocket in a party that steals items needed for combat effectiveness needs to be dealt with. I may have played a char that lifted currency off of allies (and dropped them in another ally's pocket to shift the blame), but I have never and will never run a char that will inhibit a character's ability to fight.


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## RUMBLETiGER (Oct 12, 2011)

Mirror said:


> Man, you guys are just mean. I'm not even playing in that campaign but I can tell people are sterotyping. I played and seen played other classes as pickpockets, including a druid, a wizard, and a paladin, of all things. Just because there's a rogue in the group doesn't mean automatically the rogue robbed you.
> I WILL say though, that a pickpocket in a party that steals items needed for combat effectiveness needs to be dealt with. I may have played a char that lifted currency off of allies (and dropped them in another ally's pocket to shift the blame), but I have never and will never run a char that will inhibit a character's ability to fight.



Well, he knows, OOC, that the Rogue is pickpocketing.


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## TheEvil (Oct 15, 2011)

If I understand correctly, he isn't just stealing from you, he is stealing from other party members as well, and they have no problem with this? 

If he is just picking on you, slit his characters throat in his sleep.  No warnings.  If called on it, simply point out that your character hates rogues.  If the GM and the rest of the group really have no problem with you getting screwed over by one of the other players, then you really need to find a new group.


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## RUMBLETiGER (Oct 16, 2011)

I still think, by the logic that appears present in your campaign, that if it's ok "In Character" for the Rogue to pickpocket the rest of the party and get away with it, it should also be ok, "In Character", for the Dread Necromancer to kill the Rogue and animate his corpse.

Hopefully you can simply verbalize this statement to your DM and the party in a rational manner, and when they see the harm in this very logical line of thinking, they will agree that the Rogue should stop.


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## Dross (Oct 17, 2011)

A couple of things to think about.

While you know OOC that he is stealing, does the PC know that the rogue is stealing? Making sure it is the rogue is important. As others have said: Alarm, Curse,  prestidigitation (colour bright pink, or a hidden mark), physical trap, mark all your items in a hard to locate spot.

You are taking steps to protect yourself since items are going missing. If other PCs have things go missing (especially if the rogue doesn't) help them set traps as well (but always leave something else for yourself). 

Has the rogue used any items, or does he sell or give them away? Query rogue over how how got items. If he says "bought them" ask how he got the $$, from where, and when.

Then as others have said, it is in character to expel from the party if not take more drastic action. 

Alternatively, find some way to out the rogue as a necromancer, since he has taken (your) tools of the trade, if it is not something you have shown the rest of the party. You just need to be able to deflect any calls of you being one.


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## newrange (Apr 23, 2015)

Playing a rogue today on Roll20, I didn't pickpocket a PC; however, I did something equally questionable. All of the other PCs left my character - a known thief - alone in a room full of as-of-yet unidentified and unclaimed loot. I simply whispered to the GM that I was searching containers for loot, and the GM whispered back to me what all was available. I took the opportunity to pocket a small, fairly valuable item worth twice as much gold as the rest of the loot combined. I rolled 25 on a Sleight-of-Hand check to hide it on my person with a natural 20, so the GM allowed it to go unnoticed. Should this really be considered unfair, since it went completely unnoticed by both the other PCs AND the other players?


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## delericho (Apr 23, 2015)

the Jester said:


> I think you get the idea- warn him once, then kill him. Don't accept "Nuh-uh, you didn't see me take it!" Counter with "My wisdom is 18 and we caught you before."
> 
> Kill him or boot him from the party. Don't show any tolerance for this. He won't stop.




This.


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## the Jester (Apr 23, 2015)

newrange said:


> Playing a rogue today on Roll20, I didn't pickpocket a PC; however, I did something equally questionable. All of the other PCs left my character - a known thief - alone in a room full of as-of-yet unidentified and unclaimed loot. I simply whispered to the GM that I was searching containers for loot, and the GM whispered back to me what all was available. I took the opportunity to pocket a small, fairly valuable item worth twice as much gold as the rest of the loot combined. I rolled 25 on a Sleight-of-Hand check to hide it on my person with a natural 20, so the GM allowed it to go unnoticed. Should this really be considered unfair, since it went completely unnoticed by both the other PCs AND the other players?




It's not unfair at all, but it may well be a violation of the social norms at any given table, and it's absolutely the sort of thing that, if you get caught, justifies the party saying, "No more of you!" It's all a matter of playstyle, but many, many groups favor a teamwork-no-screwing-the-party model of play, and stealing loot from the party is absolutely a violation of this.

So, sure it's fair, but so is the party killing your character if they find you out. Don't cry if it happens; once you steal from the group, it's entirely predictable, and it's also fair to assume that if they ever need to drop a player, the guy who doesn't play well with others is the one who'll get cut. So be very careful and make sure you know how the group feels about these issues.


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## newrange (Apr 24, 2015)

I can't bring myself to classify my actions as "stealing loot from the party," since nobody in the party took the time to check the contents of any of the containers.  In my eyes, the loot was completely up for grabs, since none of the other characters had even bothered to check out what the loot consisted of. I mean, none of the other characters even knew that the object my character pocketed existed in the first place.

If my character had stolen something that had already been accounted for, I could completely understand it being deemed as traitorous. But this situation can't honestly be classified as thievery, can it? There was loot, and it was claimed whilst nobody else was looking. That's really as simple as it is.


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## delericho (Apr 24, 2015)

newrange said:


> I can't bring myself to classify my actions as "stealing loot from the party," since nobody in the party took the time to check the contents of any of the containers.




Doesn't matter. The party almost certainly entered the dungeon with a reasonable assumption that "we'll split the loot equally". That item is part of the loot; it should therefore be split with the rest.

Of course, you're free to think otherwise, and your Rogue is likewise free to think otherwise. But don't expect the other players, or their characters, to agree. And if they do think otherwise, don't complain if they choose to have their characters take action against your guy for his actions. If you were "only playing your character", then so are they!


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## amerigoV (Apr 24, 2015)

Heh, too bad you folks are not higher level. I think a fine warning would be to cut his hand off, kill him, Zombie his body, have the cleric resurrect (whichever level allows it) using the hand. The zombie is a constant visual warning of what happens next time you suspect he is stealing from you.

Otherwise, just cut the hand off and animate the hand. It can guard your stuff. Or maybe that is the trapping for your Alarm spell - cut the head off some critter and animate it. It gives the warnings if something bad happens. That would be a fun creepy thing to spring on the thief the next time they rummage in your stuff.


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## delericho (Apr 24, 2015)

amerigoV said:


> Heh, too bad you folks are not higher level. I think a fine warning would be to cut his hand off, kill him, Zombie his body, have the cleric resurrect (whichever level allows it) using the hand. The zombie is a constant visual warning of what happens next time you suspect he is stealing from you.




Doesn't work. The body part used needs to have been part of the body when it died, so that severed hand wouldn't do it. And I don't think you can resurrect someone who has been turned into an undead creature unless and until the creature has been destroyed either.


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## Water Bob (Apr 24, 2015)

We had an annoying player once, back in the day (not the only annoying player ever--just a story that has stuck with me).  The guy was a min-maxer, playing a Paladin because of the perks, not for role playing reasons.  He just didn't fit wit the rest of the group.  He was a loot whore, too.  Everywhere the group went, this dude--who's supposed to be a Paladin--made sure that ever inch of ever room we ever entered was checked for loot and secret passages.  If we saw a monster--or even the threat of one--he'd charge in to fight it, expecting the entire group to follow.  The concept of parlay and avoidance was foreign to him.

Well, the rest of the group got sick of this guy (though he did have one ally in the group--the cleric, who was a roleplayer playing a character of the same faith as the Paladin).  The Thief in our party took it on himself to rid of this annoying character (not all Paladins...THIS Paladin).  

It was after a fight in a field with some basilisks.  The Paladin was doing his thing, thinking that there might be a chance for a nest with loot.  The Thief sprinkled Dust of Sneezing and Choking (this is back in 1E AD&D days....IIRC, there's no save---it's instant death) on the Cleric, because the roleplayer would stop the Thief from doing what he was doing.  Then, the Thief sneaked up behind the Paladin as he was looking for the basilisk next, used his Rope of Entanglement to confine the Paladin.  Then, the Thief pull out his Bag of Devouring and promptly slipped it over the Paladin's head.

The DM described how the Paladin screamed and jerked around, then went limp.

I laughed and laughed.

The player of the Paladin stayed with the game, but his next character was a dwarf fighter, and this guy....was played differently.  We all kinda liked the dwarf.

I guess the message got through to the player.

And, we all had a better game for it.


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## amerigoV (Apr 24, 2015)

delericho said:


> Doesn't work. The body part used needs to have been part of the body when it died, so that severed hand wouldn't do it. And I don't think you can resurrect someone who has been turned into an undead creature unless and until the creature has been destroyed either.




Well, you could kill him THEN cut off the hand. The latter point may technically be correct and is utterly boring. Or it should be learned through trial and error "oops, I thought that would work. I'm keeping the zombie, so I guess you have to roll up another character."

(of course, the price to rez would make this all folly, but a 3rd level PC should not know that)


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## Mishihari Lord (Apr 24, 2015)

Ranger19k said:


> First of all, allowing PCs to steal from other PCs is a huge mistake IMHO.  It just tends to piss everyone off, and happens to be a pet peeve of mine.  Your DM should SERIOUSLY reconsider this policy.




This is emphatically not the DM's job to handle, at least in his DM role.  Control of the character is strictly the player's prerogative.  There are a lot of ways to approach this.  Out of character may work, depending on the group.  "Hey guys, I'd rather not have a game where we stael from each other."  In other words, ask to change the group's social contract.  If you don't want this approach, then the in-game approaches people have been giving you will work.


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## redrick (Apr 24, 2015)

Mishihari Lord said:


> This is emphatically not the DM's job to handle, at least in his DM role.  Control of the character is strictly the player's prerogative.  There are a lot of ways to approach this.  Out of character may work, depending on the group.  "Hey guys, I'd rather not have a game where we stael from each other."  In other words, ask to change the group's social contract.  If you don't want this approach, then the in-game approaches people have been giving you will work.




While I don't think it's solely the DM's job, I think the DM takes point on setting the general tone for the social contract of the game, particularly when it comes to actions that are mediated through the DM. (After all, a player character can't steal from another player character without the DM's active participation.)

If one of the players in a campaign I ran wanted to steal from another player, I would probably get a feel from the other players before moving forward with it. If players are comfortable having a slightly edgy and competitive relationship with each other, that's fine, but if the group as a whole is not down with intra-party antagonism, I would shut this sort of thing down immediately. If you can't play your character in a way that allows the game to move forward, play a new character, or leave the group.

Now, if the group as a whole has embraced antagonistic actions between player characters, so be it. Kill the rogue for stealing from you. The whole "I can pick your pockets" schtick is probably the most obnoxious form of player vs player.


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## newrange (Apr 25, 2015)

That's the problem. Nobody should ever make assumptions in a game with so many different playstyles. The group didn't openly declare that we were going to equally split any found loot - not even the players. If they had put any forethought into loot distribution in the first place, they would each have an extra 12 gold in their pockets.

Further, nobody else even checked the loot before I took my action, so their characters wouldn't have any feasible justification for "taking action against" my character "for his actions." As far as those characters know, the item in question was never a part of the loot in the first place. If the players really feel bad about the situation, they can simply keep their characters in the same room as mine and/or make sure to check the contents of containers BEFORE leaving a thief in the room.

I mean, look at The Hobbit as an example. You leave the burglar out of sight with loot, and he pockets the most valuable thing around.


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## Water Bob (Apr 25, 2015)

newrange said:


> I mean, look at The Hobbit as an example. You leave the burglar out of sight with loot, and he pockets the most valuable thing around.




Yep.  We had a player who favored playing rogues and thieves.  He would certainly pocket stuff when nobody was looking.  It was hard for me to DM as I had to not alert the other players because their PCs were not around the thief when he did this.

Plus, he'd do things like say, "You want me to go first?  You want me to check for traps?  OK, then, I want a bigger share.  I put in more risk.  You guys fight as a team.  I'm all alone opening the trap laden box.  I've got more risk.  I want a bigger percentage."

The dude played him like...well, a thief.


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## newrange (Apr 25, 2015)

Water Bob said:


> Yep.  We had a player who favored playing rogues and thieves.  He would certainly pocket stuff when nobody was looking.  It was hard for me to DM as I had to not alert the other players because their PCs were not around the thief when he did this.
> 
> Plus, he'd do things like say, "You want me to go first?  You want me to check for traps?  OK, then, I want a bigger share.  I put in more risk.  You guys fight as a team.  I'm all alone opening the trap laden box.  I've got more risk.  I want a bigger percentage."
> 
> The dude played him like...well, a thief.




This guy gets it.  Everyone else is basically saying, "Roleplay... but not really."


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## redrick (Apr 25, 2015)

newrange said:


> This guy gets it.  Everyone else is basically saying, "Roleplay... but not really."




Absolutely. Role-play, but play the game. If you role-play an insufferable character who is no fun to be at the table with, or pisses everybody else off, that's on you. You can play your character at home.

It's like working as an actor — inhabit the character, but do your scene.

So, in your case, again, a lot depends on your group. You stole an item, but before anybody else even knew it existed. Cool. Probably not a big deal. Potential for some fun interplay there, if the other players are willing to go along with it. Also potential for some really unfun interplay, if the other players aren't into it. And saying, "the group didn't openly declare that we were going to split the loot beforehand" doesn't mean very much. With some people, that sort of stuff would not fly well, and it might not occur to them to bring it up.

It's like any other activity — folks have to meet in the middle. The very game-oriented player needs to learn how to have fun with the more role-player-y players who create obstacles as part of their role-playing. And the "my character told me to do it" players need to set some boundaries on their behavior and make sure that they are role-playing their character in a way that keeps the game moving forward for everybody. If you, as a player, know that Tom really, really hates people stealing his stuff, then you and Tom can work out a way for little Timmy the rogue to know he should leave Tom alone.


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## newrange (Apr 25, 2015)

It's a game in which people roleplay characters. JUST like actors, the players must thoroughly portray their own characters. If people truly feel that upset about good roleplaying, they probably shouldn't be playing a roleplaying game.


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## redrick (Apr 25, 2015)

newrange said:


> It's a game in which people roleplay characters. JUST like actors, the players must thoroughly portray their own characters. If people truly feel that upset about good roleplaying, they probably shouldn't be playing a roleplaying game.




Well, actually, as an actor, your job is to perform a script which somebody else has given to you. If you show up on set, or on stage, and say, "nope, sorry, my character wouldn't do this," you are not doing your job right. Now, if, during the rehearsal process, you speak with the director or the writer and say, "I'm not sure about why my character would say this," or, "I think my character might actually do it like this instead," folks might might be able to work with that to make changes to the script or the play. Sometimes, this is not the case. Ultimately, it is the job of the actor to figure out _why their character would do the things they have been scripted to do_, and make that believable.

In a role-playing game, you aren't given a strict script, but you are given a certain degree of a social contract, and it's your job, as a player, to figure out, "why would my character behave in a way that fits within this social contract?" That social contract will vary from table to table, of course. With one of my groups, we like to spend a lot of time figuring out why characters would be working together around certain issues. Player characters have their own individual motivations, and they don't always see eye to eye. My rogue has tried to rob another player character before, while another PC tried to put him in handcuffs. That being said, the actions were taken very much with the idea of advancing characterization and group dynamic. If I had been successful, I think I would have gotten a few copper pieces. Our Lawful Pigheaded Good player occasionally steps out of character to make suggestions about how to "get around" his character's issues.

Other tables wouldn't tolerate that degree of lollygagging, so, at that table, my job would be to figure out how to play my character in such a way that he always showed up on time to the dungeon and played it straight with his allies. Hell, a wizard can put a geas on him if need be.


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## Dog Moon (Apr 25, 2015)

amerigoV said:


> *Heh, too bad you folks are not higher level.* I think a fine warning would be to cut his hand off, kill him, Zombie his body, have the cleric resurrect (whichever level allows it) using the hand. The zombie is a constant visual warning of what happens next time you suspect he is stealing from you.
> 
> Otherwise, just cut the hand off and animate the hand. It can guard your stuff. Or maybe that is the trapping for your Alarm spell - cut the head off some critter and animate it. It gives the warnings if something bad happens. That would be a fun creepy thing to spring on the thief the next time they rummage in your stuff.




Actually, considering that this incident happened about 2-1/2 years ago, I'm pretty sure they are higher level by now.  Assuming the campaign is still going.


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## newrange (Apr 25, 2015)

If everybody wants to play a nice, pleasant game where the characters all help each other out, The DM should just require his/her players to roll either lawful good, chaotic good, or neutral good characters. If a DM allows pure neutrality, chaotic neutrality, or any variation of evil, he/she should be fine with such characters adhering to said alignments.

Players these days claim to enjoy roleplaying games, yet they act like babies when someone actually adheres to a character alignment. So, a chaotic neutral thief pocketed an unseen item for his own good; should you really be all that surprised? I mean, that's about as in-character as it can get. Surely, players and GMs alike should possess the maturity to allow accurate roleplaying within a game that is designed for roleplaying.


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## newrange (Apr 25, 2015)

redrick said:


> Well, actually, as an actor, your job is to perform a script which somebody else has given to you. If you show up on set, or on stage, and say, "nope, sorry, my character wouldn't do this," you are not doing your job right.




This is exactly my point. Saying that my character "wouldn't" secretly pocket unclaimed items would be completely denying everything that makes him who he is as a character. It doesn't matter what the other actors think; my character is a thief, and their characters have no idea that he is pocketing stuff.


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## Mishihari Lord (Apr 25, 2015)

The most important thing in this situation is to understand the social contract at the table.  At some tables, it's "we're all heroes, we will cooperate and be nice to each other."  In this situation making a character that will act against this norm is a jerk move.  Yes, you should roleplay your character.  But it's also your responsibility to create a character that won't detract from the fun of the group in the first place.  You don't get to duck responsibility by saying "it's what my PC would do" because at character creation you decided what the personality would be.  In other groups, of course, antagonistic behavior is acceptable.  Know your group.  If you don't it's easy to make the other players angry and get yourself uninvited from game night.


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## D'karr (Apr 25, 2015)

And acting in character it would not be the last time the barbarian decides to cleave your character from shoulder to groin for stealing from him.  That is also in character.


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