# Defeated by puzzle - campaign over: Here is the offending puzzle!



## Roman (Apr 30, 2005)

Last week I posted a thread about how our gaming group was in the process of being defeated by a puzzle. Today was another session of that game and we failed to solve the puzzle. I guess we simply gave up on it - it only took about 10 minutes of this session before we declared it over and moved on to a new game - usually we are much more persistent, but there was a sense of something akin to 'hopelessness' over this particular one, so we simply gave up. 

In any case, I promised that I would post the puzzle this week so that you guys and gals can take a stab at it. True to my promise, here is the puzzle including the (rather concise) instructions. If you solve the puzzle please post the solution in hidden format so that others who want to try it out can do so. 

[Start Puzzle] 

Fill the proper symbols into the blanks: 

C C C A A A A A A C B B B T T 
C C C A A A A A A C B B T T T 
C C C A A A A A C C B B T T T 
C C C C A A A A C B B T T T C 
C C C C A A A C C B B T T C C 
B C C C A A C C C B B T T C C 
B C C C A A C C B B T T C C C 
A C C C A A C C B T T T C T C 
A C C C T T T C B T B B A T C 
A A T T T B B C B B B B A T C 
A A A T T B B C B B A A A T C 
A A A T T B C C A A A A A T T 
A A A A T B T T T T T T T T T 
A A A T T B T T T T T T T T T 
A A A T T B T T T T T T T T T 

[End Puzzle]

My code: 

A = Arrow 
B = Blank (replace this with an appropriate symbol)
C = Circle 
T = Triangle 


Good luck!


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## the Jester (Apr 30, 2005)

Two questions:

Do you mean 'arrow' like bow and arrow, or arrow like you draw to point something out?

And are all the arrows pointing the same direction?  And if so, which direction?


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## Roman (Apr 30, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Two questions:
> 
> Do you mean 'arrow' like bow and arrow, or arrow like you draw to point something out?
> 
> And are all the arrows pointing the same direction?  And if so, which direction?




By arrow I mean a symbol that looks like this: <-> 

I guess it is not really an arrow (or 'double-arrow'), but I lack a better term for it. The symbol is always horizontal just like I have 'drawn' it here.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 30, 2005)

There's no answer on the poll for how I'd answer:

The issue isn't how hard the puzzle really is, it's how hard it _looks_ to be, versus how _fun_ it looks to be.

And it doesn't look anything like fun.

I'd have quit, too, which is maybe a bit petulant, but unless someone else at the table cared to solve it, game over.

I don't play D&D for _that_.


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## Ottergame (Apr 30, 2005)

I am trying to work on it, but I don't see a clear pattern.  Either we and your players are just to daft to see it, or you're puzzle isn't so very clever.


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## Roman (Apr 30, 2005)

Ottergame said:
			
		

> I am trying to work on it, but I don't see a clear pattern.  Either we and your players are just to daft to see it, or you're puzzle isn't so very clever.




I did not make the puzzle. I am just one of the players too daft to see it and as a result of our lack ability to solve this the campaign has ended.


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## Ottergame (Apr 30, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I did not make the puzzle. I am just one of the players too daft to see it and as a result of our lack ability to solve this the campaign has ended.




Ah, good.  I want to slap your DM.  If you want to make a puzzle that can be solved in a decent ammount of time, you need some sort of pattern for people to figure out.


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## Arkhandus (Apr 30, 2005)

Aye, that's dull, boring, completely uninteresting, and nearly impossible to boot.  It'd take hours of careful examination and writing to even come close to figuring out whatever absurd pattern is there.

Whoever thought that sort of "puzzle" would be something appropriate to "challenge" (more like bore and frustrate) the PCs with is a freaking moron.  No other way to put it.  If the DM didn't even present the PCs with the chance for Intelligence checks or NPCs to ask, then he's simply a freaking moron or a jackass.

Seriously.  I looked through that so-called puzzle and there's no quick or easy way to solve it.  I don't even think the creator of the puzzle placed/selected the right blank spots, or number thereof, for it to be solvable.  He's an idjit.

No fun or satisfaction could be had through, let alone worth the excessive wasted time of, solving that aweful "puzzle".


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## Ottergame (Apr 30, 2005)

Ok, there are 68 triangles, 60 arrows, and 62 circles in the puzzle.  The puzzle is 15 by 15, which is 225.  I can ASSUME that there's supposed to be 75 of each symbol, which would equal 225.  So somewhere, I need to add 7 triangles, 15 arrows, and 13 circles.

I still don't SEE a pattern though.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2005)

That's impossible!

By which I mean, that's impossible to be any fun at all for anyone involved. Just annoying. Find a new DM, for your own sakes.

Demiurge out.


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## Roman (Apr 30, 2005)

Ottergame said:
			
		

> Ok, there are 68 triangles, 60 arrows, and 62 circles in the puzzle.  The puzzle is 15 by 15, which is 225.  I can ASSUME that there's supposed to be 75 of each symbol, which would equal 225.  So somewhere, I need to add 7 triangles, 15 arrows, and 13 circles.
> 
> I still don't SEE a pattern though.




This was one of the things we tried, but we did not know where to put which of those symbols, so we never found out whether it was correct or not.


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## Ottergame (Apr 30, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> This was one of the things we tried, but we did not know where to put which of those symbols, so we never found out whether it was correct or not.




Since that's the only sense at all I can pull from this, I'm not to sure if even that is true.  But since it's all I have, I'm goign to keep trying to work with it till I get something.

Turning the puzzle on it's side and comparing it with the original doesn't help me yet, either.  I had kinda hoped since it was an equal dimension puzzle that that would have been a good place to start.  But it doesn't look like it.


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## Ottergame (Apr 30, 2005)

I solved the puzzle.  The answer: Your DM is an ass.

Seriously, there doesn't seem to be any logical answer to this thing.  Most likely there's not, the DM just convinced himself that he's smart, and made an "oh so clever" puzzle to prove how smart he is.


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## ColonelHardisson (Apr 30, 2005)

Ottergame said:
			
		

> I solved the puzzle.  The answer: Your DM is an ass.




It's interesting, because my answer came out to be "never again game with anyone who hinges an entire campaign on such an "unfun" puzzle."

Actually, though, I'm curious as to whether the players asked the DM what he was thinking when he made this puzzle the make-or-break element of the campaign? Some of us have a hard enough time finding and keeping together a group without discouraging players like this.


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## Wild Gazebo (Apr 30, 2005)

This is probably way off, but might the proper symbols be squares.  As in: lines, triangles, circles and sqares?  Perhaps it's a riddle puzzle?


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## shilsen (Apr 30, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Actually, though, I'm curious as to whether the players asked the DM what he was thinking when he made this puzzle the make-or-break element of the campaign? Some of us have a hard enough time finding and keeping together a group without discouraging players like this.




I was wondering the same thing. If something like this came up while I was a player, I'd have either asked for a time-out and spoken to the DM about it and his general expectations for the game, or spoken to him about it after the session, but I'd definitely have had a discussion about it.

Roman, did you and your DM ever have such a discussion? If so, what did he say?


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## thalmin (Apr 30, 2005)

I enjoy a good puzzle. Let us know if you encounter one.

I couldn't vote. Your poll is lacking the "Who cares?" response.


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## Algolei (Apr 30, 2005)

Are there any other clues?

Is the original hand-drawn?  If so, is that important--does the DM hand-draw everything, or would he have typed it if possible?

Which way do the triangles point?

What is the background of this puzzle?  Where did you find it?  What will be accomplished by solving it?  Who is supposed to have created it, and why?


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## Gez (Apr 30, 2005)

If you'd allow me...


```
O O O ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ O       ∆ ∆
O O O ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ O     ∆ ∆ ∆
O O O ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ O O     ∆ ∆ ∆
O O O O ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ O     ∆ ∆ ∆ O
O O O O ↔ ↔ ↔ O O     ∆ ∆ O O
  O O O ↔ ↔ O O O     ∆ ∆ O O
  O O O ↔ ↔ O O     ∆ ∆ O O O
↔ O O O ↔ ↔ O O   ∆ ∆ ∆ O ∆ O
↔ O O O ∆ ∆ ∆ O   ∆     ↔ ∆ O
↔ ↔ ∆ ∆ ∆     O         ↔ ∆ O
↔ ↔ ↔ ∆ ∆     O     ↔ ↔ ↔ ∆ O
↔ ↔ ↔ ∆ ∆   O O ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ ∆ ∆
↔ ↔ ↔ ↔ ∆   ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆
↔ ↔ ↔ ∆ ∆   ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆
↔ ↔ ↔ ∆ ∆   ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆ ∆
```

There, it's prettier this way.


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## nerfherder (Apr 30, 2005)

Algolei said:
			
		

> Are there any other clues?
> 
> Is the original hand-drawn?  If so, is that important--does the DM hand-draw everything, or would he have typed it if possible?
> 
> Which way do the triangles point?



Yes, is how it looks significant, or are the triangles, etc, just randomly chosen symbols.  I'd like to see exactly what you were given by your GM.

Also, did the context give any clues?  e.g. was it found in the temple of the god of mathematics...?

Cheers,
Liam


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## Gez (Apr 30, 2005)

To me, it kinda looks like a map... Maybe the triangles are mountains and the circles are forests and the double arrows are plains or something...


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## RSKennan (Apr 30, 2005)

Gez said:
			
		

> If you'd allow me...
> 
> 
> ```
> ...




Looks like a map to me. Triangles would be mountains, dashes would be forest, and circles would be water (or dashes water and circles forest??). If you have a map handy, and it or part of it matches, then this is just a lame puzzle, with potential for an interesting twist. If not, then I totally agree that this puzzle blows.


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## RSKennan (Apr 30, 2005)

Gez said:
			
		

> To me, it kinda looks like a map... Maybe the triangles are mountains and the circles are forests and the double arrows are plains or something...




heh- Gez... I hadn't seen your post.


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## Maggan (Apr 30, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> Also, did the context give any clues?  e.g. was it found in the temple of the god of mathematics...?




Or maybe in the temple of the god of pranks? Would make a world of difference ... 
 

I tried for all of 10 minutes before giving up. That's the effect of puzzles have on me. So even if I'm the DM I avoid handing out puzzles, because I hate them!

I'll sick my group on this tonight though.  We're having a party, and if a bunch of drunk roleplayers can't figure this one out, no one can!

M.


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## BiggusGeekus (Apr 30, 2005)

Ottergame said:
			
		

> I solved the puzzle.  The answer: Your DM is an ass.




I agree.  This seems to be the correct solution.


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## Yair (Apr 30, 2005)

In a recent thread, someone mentioned I must not like puzzled. He was right. And this is an example why.
No fun. It's just no fun, even if it can be solved - it isn't worth the effort. I voted Impossible.


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## Romnipotent (Apr 30, 2005)

I've had puzzles like this. I've had grid pattern rainbow trap platforms, prismatic of the similar type, and such forth. I was a dumb barbarian once, and solved it by dancing through it singing the Rainbow song my parents taught me. The DM thought it was hysterical to see clerical scholars and wizards baffled by it, and a dumb carefree barbarian jumps around.

I had a dial trap I made, numbers 1-9 on 3 or 4 dials... the clues was mathematical and you could solve it just by turning the dials persistantly. Of course when you hit certain numbers you get zapped with a lightning bolt... the elected player turned dials, got healed, and continued
broke through the door and seeked down the guy that commissioned and built it.

As far as the puzzle goes, get your GM to this post, have them post the result, and explain the theory and pattern. I'll keep taking a look, not giving up yet! but damn this things... not a puzzle as more a test for children to be trained as super secret Spies!

(image gond, see later post for interactive version)


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 30, 2005)

Someone needs to revoke his subscription to GAMES magazine.


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## Keeper of Secrets (Apr 30, 2005)

That puzzle is the antichrist of puzzles.  It has ended all possible fun that a puzzle could produce. A pox on that puzzle and a pox upon your GM.


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## Frostmarrow (Apr 30, 2005)

Frankly, I don't think we can solve the puzzle. For if it is a map we don't have the background info necessary. Still, if I was in the party subjected to the puzzle I'd certainly take a stab at solving it. It's a matter of pride, you know. I'd rather be the one that solve it than the ones having to celebrate the solver. Still, I agree that it looks boring as hell and would put a damper on anyone's night (or even campaign.) I'd be interested to learn what the DM has to say for himself. Often idiots are merely misunderstood.


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## DragonLancer (Apr 30, 2005)

I haven't seen your original post and I'm not good at puzzles myself, but I wouldn't have given up so easily.

Depending where it was, take a copy and go see if any Loremasters, mages or priests can help solve it. Using divination spells to give clues.


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## DragonLancer (Apr 30, 2005)

I haven't seen your original post and I'm not good at puzzles myself, but I wouldn't have given up so easily.

Depending where it was, take a copy and go see if any Loremasters, mages or priests can help solve it. Using divination spells to give clues. If it is a map, check your own IC maps and PC knowledge to see if its familiar.

Theres always something you can do that doesn't involve solving the puzzle there and then.


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## Bront (Apr 30, 2005)

I personaly like a good puzzle occasionaly (FYI, I do NOT think this is a good puzzle).  However, it needs to be in game.  There needs to be context to the puzzle outside of just "Here it is".  And I also like to build in clues so the party can "notice" them if they get stumped for a bit.

If/when I GM, if I were to do a puzzle, I do realize that occasionaly you throw out a small bit of RP.  And I'm fine with that in terms of game balance.  If the Int 8 Barb is able to decrypt the message because the player is better than that, but everyone has fun working on it, I don't see anything lost.  Perhaps, in game, he just sparked someone's idea (Or maybe he's an idiot savant).  I'm not going to penalize the party just because one player figured out the puzzle when his character might not have.


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## Algolei (Apr 30, 2005)

I thought it might be a map too, with mountains plains and water (forest might be a better thought than water).  But without more info, I dismissed it for now and looked for patterns instead.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> C C C A A A A A A C B B B T T
> C C C A A A A A A C B B T T T
> C C C A A A A A C C B B T T T
> C C C C A A A A C B B T T T C
> ...




I've singled out four of the symbols by *highlighting* and underlining them (two are in column 7, rows 5 and 6; the other two are in column 3, rows 10 and 11).  Could you double-check them for me, Roman?  If two of them are wrong, then I actually found a pattern; but if they're all right, the pattern fails.

Also, can you think of any good reason why the square has 15 sides?  Is the number 15 of any significance to the campaign/puzzle-maker/dungeon?


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## Ratenef (Apr 30, 2005)

Roman,

Has or will your DM at least shared the solution with you? Or perhaps its source (it looks vaguely familiar)?

You say you moved on to a new game, was this puzzle a campaign breaker?

Did the DM not offer any hints?

I agreee with various other posters in that without some of the background context, it is nigh impossible to solve. However, when I voted I gave the DM the benefit of the douby and said it was difficult, as I'm certain that he would not propose an impossible puzzle.

If you have the solution, please PM me or post it, as I'd like to see what it is I'm missing.

It probably is something painfully simple, but we're all making the puzzle more difficult than it really is.


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## Romnipotent (Apr 30, 2005)

Ok, maybe I am insane, or just that annoyed by this puzzle!
Heres a toy for it http://www.geocities.com/mtmagi/Puzzle.swf

oh yeah, instructions, blank squares respond to being clicked on, click and it changes to the colours, 4 cycle sequence. The colours are off tone so you can distinguish them. I know the contrast is awful but its a quick job... rubix cubey


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## Algolei (Apr 30, 2005)

Don't give up yet, I think this thing is solveable....


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## Dagger75 (Apr 30, 2005)

So far its been 6 hours since this puzzle has been posted and hasn't been solved.  I would have walked away from this in game to.  There was an article in a Dragon magazine where someone said if there is a puzzle you can't solve just walk away your DM will give you the answer if he wants you to pass.

 I can't believe he would let the game end over this.  Is he running the new game to or is somebody else?  He could have burned out as DM and this was the perfect excuse to end a game.


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## BiggusGeekus (Apr 30, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> So far its been 6 hours since this puzzle has been posted and hasn't been solved.  I would have walked away from this in game to.  There was an article in a Dragon magazine where someone said if there is a puzzle you can't solve just walk away your DM will give you the answer if he wants you to pass.




A Knowedge (whatever) or INT check might be more applicable.

The DM could figure out how hard the puzzle is.  If a player manages to solve it then the DM should rule for dramatic purposes that the puzzle was solved in minutes or seconds.  Otherwise the DM can rule that all puzzles are solveable in inverse proprotion to the INT of the party.


```
INT  HOURS
6        48
7        40
8        36
9        30
10       26
11       22
12       20
13       18
14       16
15       14
16       13
17       12
18       11
19       10
20         9
21         8
22         7
+1       -1
```

.. to a minimum of one hour.

If the character with the highest INT is assisted, he can add +2 to his rating, but there's a 50-50 chance the "dumber" PC figures it out before he does (e.g. _Fellowship of the Ring_ outside the Mines of Moria).

This way a DM can challenge the party with a puzzle and reward the player if he solves it within a reasonable ammount of time.  But if everyone in the party is bad at puzzles like I am, then the game can still continue with nothing lost but time.

Just a thought.


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## IronWolf (Apr 30, 2005)

BiggusGeekus beat me to it!  My character would like to make an Intelligence check to solve the puzzle.  He is smarter than me....


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## jerichothebard (Apr 30, 2005)

This puzzle sucks.  Personally, I would be _happy_ the DM is letting the campaign hinge on it - because it means I can walk away now!  From what you have said here and in the other thread, this doesn't sound like an enjoyable game.


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## BSF (Apr 30, 2005)

Here is a link to the original thread:  http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=129401

Roman and his group worked on this puzzle last session and then continued on the puzzle in this latest session.  Keep that in mind before you talk about giving up so easily.    Seriously, would you want to waste multiple sessions trying to solve a puzzle?  I suppose if finishing the campaign is really important you will.  But how many of us would just bail on it and do something fun with a new campaign?


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## orsal (Apr 30, 2005)

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> I'd be interested to learn what the DM has to say for himself. Often idiots are merely misunderstood.




"I was bored with this campaign, and so I invented this apparent puzzle. I never had a solution in mind, and was hoping you wouldn't think of anything either, so that when I ended the campaign I could blame it on your failure and not on my own apathy."

I suppose I shouldn't try to speak for he DM, but that's my guess.


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## tylerthehobo (Apr 30, 2005)

*Uh...how about roleplaying the puzzle solution?*

Everybody plays for different reasons.  Lord knows I've been waaaay underwhelmed with many a campaign I've played in, and I'm sure that I've bored the socks off of folks who've played in my campaigns.  But, it seems that if we're talking about two sessions worth of effort on this, that it's just time to finally stop looking at the puzzle and react in character.  I often play the brash, dumb ranger/barbarian, and he'd probably have set fire to the puzzle well before y'all gave up.  Likewise, I don't see as to how it would be out of the ordinary to have a character with 18 Intelligence do a skill check to see if they could solve it, and then roleplay out some made-up explanation.  Call-of-Cthulhu is actually built on this priniciple, with an "Idea" roll - it's assumed that if you're a very smart player playing a dumb thug, that your character won't have the same intelligence and problem-solving ability that you do.  Yeah, solving puzzles can be fun, but when they become the be all and end all, forget about it.

Man, that was the most pretentious paragraph I've ever written.  it sounded like Jerry Springer's final thought...


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## Swiftbrook (Apr 30, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Today was another session of that game and we failed to solve the puzzle. I guess we simply gave up on it - it only took about 10 minutes of this session before we declared it over and moved on to a new game - usually we are much more persistent, but there was a sense of something akin to 'hopelessness' over this particular one, so we simply gave up.




This is not a problem.  I simply would REQUIRE the DM to set a DC vs my Wizards Int score to solve the puzzle.  In almost any game, the Wizards Int is far higher than the player combined Int, it's just never used.  We use our characters strength score to break down doors we could never hope to even dent.  We use our rogues dexterity score to do things we'd trip over our two left feet event thinking about.  But we always use the players knowledge and problem solving skills to figure out puzzles instead of our characters intelligence.  INT 8 is dumb, 12-14 average thinker, 15 typical gamer, 16 a college proffessor.  Our wizards often have INT 19 even at 1st level.  Their smart, but we never use that in solving game problems, our DM's wont let us.   It spoils all their hard work coming up with the puzzle.  I say too bad.  It's my Wizard trying to solve the puzzle, not me!

-Swiftbrook


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## Crothian (Apr 30, 2005)

Swiftbrook said:
			
		

> Their smart, but we never use that in solving game problems, our DM's wont let us.   It spoils all their hard work coming up with the puzzle.  I say too bad.  It's my Wizard trying to solve the puzzle, not me!
> 
> -Swiftbrook




Puzzles are not for characters they are for players.  Making it a skill check is even worse.  You'd perfer having a campaign hinge on a single roll of the die?  Though having it hinge on solving a puzzlle is not much better.


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## maggot (Apr 30, 2005)

I agree that having a campaign hinge on solving a puzzle is a bad idea.  As is spending an entire game session solving it.

But having the characters make INT checks defeats the purpose of a puzzle.  Why bother coming up with the detail of a puzzle if you are just going to roll.  Why not just say, INT check 16 to get into this room?

Reminds me of people who say "I don't have any reason why the guy would help us, but have a diplomacy of +21 so I'm going to roll."


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## Gez (Apr 30, 2005)

Algolei said:
			
		

> Could you double-check them for me, Roman?  If two of them are wrong, then I actually found a pattern; but if they're all right, the pattern fails.




Assuming they are wrong, what is your pattern, Algolei?


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## BiggusGeekus (Apr 30, 2005)

maggot said:
			
		

> But having the characters make INT checks defeats the purpose of a puzzle.  Why bother coming up with the detail of a puzzle if you are just going to roll.  Why not just say, INT check 16 to get into this room?




Hence the reason I based my solution on hours rather than success/fail.  An hour based system means even the dumbest half-orc can cross the room, he just can't do it right away.


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## Swiftbrook (Apr 30, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Puzzles are not for characters they are for players.  Making it a skill check is even worse.  You'd perfer having a campaign hinge on a single roll of the die?  Though having it hinge on solving a puzzlle is not much better.




I like puzzles.  The 'puzzle' show though seems to have taken a lot of time.  That's not fun for most players that I know.  So if the puzzle is for the players and the players are not having fun, why have it.  I'd just have my Wizard roll a skill check and be done with it.  There are lots of puzzles that you can create that are situational for your players to solve.  This is a pencil and paper type of puzzle that is perfect for a character skill check.

I was in a LG Castle Greyhawk game with a situational puzzle.  A single piece of fruit in a deadly tree and we needed the fruit.  No Int checks here, just some basic player thinking skills. We got the fruit without touching the tree.  I think our DM really liked our idea.  We were thinking outside the box.  We all had a lot of fun.

If you want players to solve puzzles, use puzzles for the players, not the characters.

-Swiftbrook


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## nerfherder (Apr 30, 2005)

maggot said:
			
		

> Reminds me of people who say "I don't have any reason why the guy would help us, but have a diplomacy of +21 so I'm going to roll."



So you always give a reason why your Fighter with a really high attack roll managed to hit the creature with the really high AC, or why your monk managed to jump across a huge chasm?  Or do you just roll the dice, add the bonuses and see if you beat the DC/AC?

Cheers,
Liam


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## Len (Apr 30, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> You'd perfer having a campaign hinge on a single roll of the die?



I don't know what game you're talking about, Crothian, but a D&D campaign often _does_ hinge on a single roll of the die.

It's easy to make up a puzzle that no-one can solve. Requiring the players to solve such a puzzle in order to continue the campaign is not fair. That's not what D&D is about, and it suggests that the DM either hates the players or hates the campaign.

It would be different if there was another way to get past the puzzle. Whether it's an Int check, or a side quest to track down the key to the puzzle, or another way in that's guarded by monsters. Something other than "read my mind or the game is over".


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## Crothian (Apr 30, 2005)

Len said:
			
		

> I don't know what game you're talking about, Crothian, but a D&D campaign often _does_ hinge on a single roll of the die.




Not with compitent people running and playing the game.


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## Crothian (Apr 30, 2005)

Swiftbrook said:
			
		

> If you want players to solve puzzles, use puzzles for the players, not the characters.




The puzzle in this thread is for the players, if it was for the characters it would take a die roll.  Since it has to be solved by the players that is who it is for.


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## Ryltar (Apr 30, 2005)

As a DM, if I'd thought it absolutely necessary to have the campaign revolve entirely around this one riddle, I'd have posed it to the players, and then offered clues ranging from "almost the solution" to "basic hint", based on the character's INT checks. Thus, the players feel they're actually doing something, as opposed to "just rolling vs a set DC", but it still doesn't degenerate into a puzzle-fest.

YMMV, of course .


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## Greylock (Apr 30, 2005)

Hmmm, four votes so far for "Easy". All right you wise guys, tell us how you solved it. I'm curious whether the DM actually shared the solution with the players after they tossed in the towel. 

As for the debate, I think INT checks get you clues but not a free pass. Unless the puzzle is crippling the game. 

If I remember correctly from the original thread, this campaign was almost over. Leaving the pc's and players hanging like that after who know's how long is flat out mean.


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## Gorrstagg (Apr 30, 2005)

I have an absolute aversion to DM's who don't allow alternatives to solving the puzzles.. they every now and then think are necessary for their campaign.

They aren't fun.. heck even the puzzle gandalf had to solve the simple riddle of saying friend in elvish left everyone sitting outside moria bored.

If that wasn't clue enough to not do it in a campaign.. I don't know what was.

If I as a DM put this up.. I would let the players spend some time on it, but after a while of no answers.. I would let them make Intelligence tests. Until one of them got it.

And moved on.. vowing not to do that again..

Argh! Puzzles and riddles I think are the bane of good roleplaying.. and they are a personal pet peeve of mine. Because I've played with a few DM's briefly who tried to pull this type of crap. And pointed out to them.. to get back to the game and having fun.. not twisting our minds on something that they the DM thought was clever.

Grr!!!


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## jeffh (Apr 30, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Puzzles are not for characters they are for players.




Then you have to ask what the hell it's doing there in the first place. From an in-character perspective, why does it even exist?

If it's based on a pattern or something I'm convinced the GM left too many (or the wrong) entries blank for it to be solvable, unless there was some sort of additional clue that hasn't been mentioned so far.


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## Crothian (Apr 30, 2005)

jeffh said:
			
		

> Then you have to ask what the hell it's doing there in the first place. From an in-character perspective, why does it even exist?




I'm not running the game why are you asking me?  I can tell you why and how puzzles exist in my game.  I have a puzzle for the players at the same point there is one for the characters.  Instead of having the characters roll dice to solve theirs though, the players need to solve theirs.  It is a represnetation of a puzzle and not always the same the characters would be faced with.  I also don't have the success and failutre of a campaign hinge on a single puzzle.  Plus, before I use puzzles in a campaign I talk to the players ahead of time how I plan yo use them and make sure they are okay with it.  Puzzles can be a great part of the game when used right, when used wrong they are not that great just like anything that is used wrong.


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## Roman (Apr 30, 2005)

Alright some answers to the questions presented: 

1) We did try using squares and other symbols (cubes and hypercubes - we tried to see whether it has something to do with dimensions) but that did not work. 
2) We did not try making it correspond to a map, so that is certainly a new suggestion. However, now that it has been suggested I can confirm that it does not correspond to any map we have. 
3) The triangles all point downwards. 
4) Circles are crossed. Imagine a circle like this "O" but with an "x" in the center. 
5) The puzzle is a 15x15 grid, but the cells are about twice as wide as they are high. I suspect this does not have any significance other than the fact that the puzzle was printed from Excel where cells are wider than they are high. 
6) The number 15 or 225 does not have any in campaign or meta-campaign significance as far as we know. 
7) There were neither any instructions on the puzzle nor any clues we can relate to it apart from the (exact quote): "Fill in the proper symbols into the blanks" 
8) As I have explained in the previous thread, it is simply not possible to go somewhere else or do something else or get some help. 
9) Algolei, the symbols you highlighted are correct - they should indeed be there. 


As a note, I want to point out that our DM ran an enjoyable campaing, so remarks that he is an idiot and so on are certainly not justified - we played in the campaign for exactly a year now and there were a number of puzzles but there was always the possibility for us to go somewhere else or do something else except this time. Yes, it does suck that the campaign ended because we could not solve the puzzle (and we expressed our pity to the DM), but we moved on to a new one - no hard feelings.


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## orsal (Apr 30, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> 5) The puzzle is a 15x15 grid, but the cells are about twice as wide as they are high. I suspect this does not have any significance other than the fact that the puzzle was printed from Excel where cells are wider than they are high.




In which case it would be due to the fact that the puzzle was printed from Excel by a DM who hasn't figured out how to resize column width.


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## punkorange (Apr 30, 2005)

This is precisely why I don't do puzzles out of character.  Even though my character has in intelligence of 19 and can use magic to somewhat see the future, I can't figure out this puzzle so my character is clueless.


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## Len (Apr 30, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Not with compitent people running and playing the game.



You've never been within 1 roll of a TPK?


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## Crothian (Apr 30, 2005)

Len said:
			
		

> You've never been within 1 roll of a TPK?





But it wasn't that single roll that caused the TPK, there were other dice rolls that got you to the place that one more bad roll would cause a TPK.


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## Psion (Apr 30, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Puzzles are not for characters they are for players.  Making it a skill check is even worse.  You'd perfer having a campaign hinge on a single roll of the die?  Though having it hinge on solving a puzzlle is not much better.




Nonetheless, this notion may leave you with a jarring sense that your character's intelligence doesn't mean much.

A compromise between gamist and simulationist stances is justifiable here. As the Yuan-Ti puzzle in the _Book of Challenges_ did, you can let the pcs may intelligence checks (or appropriate skill checks) to get hints.


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## BiggusGeekus (Apr 30, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> A compromise between gamist and simulationist stances is justifiable here. As the Yuan-Ti puzzle in the _Book of Challenges_ did, you can let the pcs may intelligence checks (or appropriate skill checks) to get hints.




This reminds me of an old, old computer game about spying.  You could take skill ranks in things like cryptography or driving.  What you would get out of it is that the more skill you put into a given category the easier the puzzle was.  

Hints for skill checks seems like a good idea.  In the case of this particular puzzle, the DM could have ruled that for every point the characters beat a given DC, he would fill in one of the blanks.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 30, 2005)

There is no answer, there is only Zuul.


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## Crothian (Apr 30, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Nonetheless, this notion may leave you with a jarring sense that your character's intelligence doesn't mean much.




That is why knowing your players and asking them ahead of time how they would like puzzles done is important.  I know some people that don't want puzzles period and others that would not want any hints no matter what character they play.


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## Starglim (May 1, 2005)

Nearly impossible, because not enough information is given to guess the pattern or to find a starting point.


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## Hodgie (May 1, 2005)

Romnipotent- What program did you make that puzzle with?  

Had the puzzle been presented in this fashion I would have had no qualms with it.  Players could have messed with it away from the table and (assuming some sort of result occured when the solution was found) attrition could be used to solve it.


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## Slife (May 1, 2005)

3 choices, 35 squares.

About 5,000,000,000,000,000 combinations.  Have the mage rest and fill all his spell slots with unseen servants.  

8th level wiz with 20 int gets 17 unseen servants
8th level sorc with 20 chr gets 25 unseen servants

Assume they last eight hours per casting, and can try a combination every second.

For the sorc, that's 70,000,000,000 days of casting
For the wiz, that's 100,000,000,000 days of casting

Halve that for averages.

35,000,000,000 days sorc
50,000,000,000 days wiz

So, your wizard could try for 140,000,000 years on average...
Or your sorc could try for 95,000,000 years.

Break out the potions of lichage.


So lets say you get a level 20 sorcerer instead.  He's done in a cool 2,000,000 years (casting time increases with level too).

Impossible to brute force... mathematically.  My solution: ask the Dm to let you roll a d20 until you get a 20.  The number of rolls= the number of days you spent.


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## Hodgie (May 1, 2005)

2 million years? Attrition is out then...


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## Ds Da Man (May 1, 2005)

Hey, maybe your DM should just git rid of INT, WIS, CHR all together. Why do you need it if your just going to use your real INT, WIS, CHR?

Roman, if your DM let this campaign go because of this stupid puzzle thing, HE SUCKS!!!


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## MarauderX (May 1, 2005)

Here's my logic after staring for a few minutes while enjoying the last brew of the evening.  

The blanks will be replaced by either an A (arrow), T (Triangle) or C (Circle).  Not all the Blanks will be the same, but will vary depending on the line above it and whether the lines ascend or descend in order.  I'm also looking at it like a set of roman numerals, where the higher order letter can be modified by the lower order letter depending on the placement.  So in the first line the 3 Blanks might be replaced by either a C or T.  
Lower down the list, there are 2 Blanks on the very left.  My guess is that each is either a C or an A as it transitions downwards, but knowing when it transitions from C to A going down is what needs to be examined.  I think the trick is to figure out the ordered value of A, C & T.  

If this is the trick to the puzzle, tell your DM to stick to the other aspects of the game and leave retardedly boring things like this at his MENSA club meetings.


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## tylerthehobo (May 1, 2005)

*You're a better man than I...*

So, there were no hard feelings on the DM ending an entire campaign because you couldn't read his mind?  

Anybody ever play 7th Guest?  That was a great game built around puzzles.  Myst?  Great game built around puzzles.  This isn't a great puzzle - it's a TPK in the form of a brainteaser.  There are tons of great puzzle books out there that could have served as source material - even d20-Fantasy source material - for a puzzle that would have fit your campaign and flavor.  It's really sad that the whole campaign hinged on this - so much work goes into a campaign, and to have it all flushed down over this is sad.  Sounds like your DM's priorities weren't in the right place.  Hope the new campaign's a good time.


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## Tatsukun (May 1, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> "Fill in the proper symbols into the blanks"




Is your DM a native English speaker? If so, the grammar error might be a clue. 
Why are there two prepositions? 

It should be "Fill the proper symbols into the blanks". 

Does the phrasal verb "Fill in" have an other meaning in your campaign? Maybe the old cleric always told you to 'Fill in the circle of life' or something? 

If not, just beat your DM with sticks until he tells you the answer, then get a new DM. 

/professor mode

 -Tatsu


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## D-rock (May 1, 2005)

I'm glad you didn't take it too hard, most people probably would have been more upset than you were.  Although, if you thought your DM just goofed, which happens, I could understand.  Perhaps, he really thought the puzzle was easyer than it was.  Although, there should of been more than one solution to getting through the puzzle.


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## RangerWickett (May 1, 2005)

That's what the world could use: a book on how to create Myst-like puzzles that are engaging and fun.

I remember fondly the weirdest thing I did when playing Myst.  There's this one puzzle where you're on a track, and you're trying to head a certain direction, and sometimes you'll stop and hear a chime or something.  You're supposed to use those as clues.  Not me.  I just visually kept a sense of which direction the cart was pointing based on how much it turned on the track.  Never knew what the actual puzzle was; I just kept myself pointing in the same direction.

On a related note, Cube 0 is a good movie.  Hypercube _*SUCKS!*_


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## Mark (May 1, 2005)

The DM should always have alternate ways to defeat any obstacle, no matter if it is a physical or mental challenge.  That said...

Indiana Jones would be ashamed of the attitude of some of you people!   Many puzzles "suck" until you figure them out.  They are suppose to stymie you for at least a while.  Although I do not understand why a DM would allow his game to end rather than provide some alternatives to knuckling down and solving a puzzle, I think it speaks well of the group and its members that he felt this puzzle was solvable by them, if indeed he did.

Anyway, are we sure we actually have all of the information here?

So anyway, screw this worrying about whether there are spoilers in this thread, I say, let's work this problem *transparently*, right here in this thread and see if we can figure it out.

I think it would help to have an actual scan of the puzzle as drawn by the DM, or whatever he actually presented to the group.  Is that possible?


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## tarchon (May 1, 2005)

I would guess that it's meant to be read as a sequence of rows, with some transformation rule between rows. You're intended to infer the transformation rule and use that to extrapolate the symbols from previous and subsequent rows. Significantly, note that there are no complete rows (which would make the transformation obvious) but several complete columns. The first rows have a fairly obvious transformation, but the later ones break it, which is a typical puzzle-book design.


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## Mark (May 1, 2005)

Do you think there might be some sort of replacement value that helps to discover the empty/blank spaces values?  Something on the order of a circle being valued at one, because it is made of just one line, while the triangle is valued at three, and perhaps the double-arrow (or diamond with a bisecting, horizontal line) being valued at five?


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## Abraxas (May 1, 2005)

> Something on the order of a circle being valued at one, because it is made of just one line




I've already tried this and can't come up with a pattern.  However, in a later post it was stated that the circles are circles with an x in them.

After looking at it again, I'm wondering if the DM didn't make up the whole thing with a pattern that is relatively easy to see when all the  symbols are present and then just erased some without noting that he had taken so many that there is no clue to the pattern anymore.

Or I'm just daft, cause right now I can't come up with anything.


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## rushlight (May 1, 2005)

I noticed that the symbols are grouped into three blocks of each symbol.

Going from left to right, the blocks have the following number of tiles:

Circle:  29, 19, 13
Arrow: 20, 30, 10
Triangle: 15, 21, 33

I thought perhaps there was a significance between the size of the blocks.  Like the difference in the size of the Arrow blocks is 10, if you align them in acending order.  Perhaps if you could figure out a pattern for the other two, you'd know how many of the blank tiles would be needed to fill in the pattern.

As an aside, (and as a DM) I can't imagine allowing a campaign that I'd worked a *year* on to be unravelled by a silly puzzle.  That's just wasting a year of your (and your players!) lives.  It also shows a severe lack of attention to the #1 rule - keep the game fun.  I'd be pissed if a game I'd played in for a year ended this way.


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## Mark (May 1, 2005)

Is this helpful?


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## Romnipotent (May 1, 2005)

Hodgie, Flash MX... its a SWF file afterall... you can play with it allllll night, wont solve a thing I guess....


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## FreeTheSlaves (May 1, 2005)

Its not one of the 'minefield game' screenshots is it?

Seriously though, if this rubbish ended a good campaign I'd have to drag the DM out the back and rub grass in his face.

Otoh, I think it might be a sign for a new DM to step up.


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## Eosin the Red (May 1, 2005)

I would guess that it has to be a very poor graphical represntation of something (a map...a finger pointing downwards?).

On the OTH, I would likely have very strong words for the DM. Gaming is an outlet and many of us have limited time - this is an utter waste of that precious commody.


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## John Q. Mayhem (May 1, 2005)

Well, the DM evidently made a mistake, the players are taking it fine, and they're starting a new campaign. Sounds like he's not quite the stupid hobgoblin people are making him out to be, but just a guy who screwed up. This thread's been a scoche vitriolic for that offense.


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## Algolei (May 1, 2005)

Gez said:
			
		

> Assuming they are wrong, what is your pattern, Algolei?



I noticed that when you split the whole puzzle up into 9 squares of 5x5, the borders seemed to be mirror images (and where the blanks are of course).






That would have enabled us to fill in many of the blanks with the symbols they were supposed to be mirroring.

But the pattern fails in those two spots.






Perhaps we're looking at this in completely the wrong way.  Maybe the blanks are supposed to hold completely different symbols.  For example, there are what...35 empty spaces?  Maybe you're supposed to put in a sentence instead.  Something like "Fill in the proper symbols into the blanks."  That's exactly 35 letters, isn't it?  Bloody awful coincidence, don't you think?


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## Steverooo (May 1, 2005)

I voted Impossible...  Without even directions on what needs to be done, I think it is.  You could hide out, somehow, and observe any "cultists" who came to get in, perhaps...

To me, it looks like a map of the Great Lakes/Lake Michigan area.  Your "Dungeon" is under water, so it might be a map of the lake-bottom, as well.  Who knows?

In any case, since the game is now over, methinks it matters not!


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## apesamongus (May 1, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> The puzzle in this thread is for the players, if it was for the characters it would take a die roll.  Since it has to be solved by the players that is who it is for.



Which is why the suggestion was for the players to DEMAND that the GM let them roll.  It's not a question of what the GM intended - he's a head, so who cares what he intended - it's a question of how the players should have reacted to the problem.


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## Tatsukun (May 1, 2005)

Algolei said:
			
		

> Perhaps we're looking at this in completely the wrong way.  Maybe the blanks are supposed to hold completely different symbols.  For example, there are what...35 empty spaces?  Maybe you're supposed to put in a sentence instead.  Something like "Fill in the proper symbols into the blanks."  That's exactly 35 letters, isn't it?  Bloody awful coincidence, don't you think?




That would explain the grammar error from the (assumed) native speaker. 
I like this idea the best of anything so far. But what order should be used? Simple left to right, top to bottom? Maybe there is some grouping?

Hmmm, I'll ponder more about your great idea! 

   -Tatsu


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## apesamongus (May 1, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> But it wasn't that single roll that caused the TPK, there were other dice rolls that got you to the place that one more bad roll would cause a TPK.



And this one puzzle was at the culmination of an extended campaign.  I'm sure plenty of different things led up to that puzzle.

Also, there are plenty of save or die spells out there, that can destroy a party if the wrong person dies early.


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## Tatsukun (May 1, 2005)

Oh, could you set the scene for us a little more? Where / how did the PC's encounter this puzzle? Was it painted on a wall or something? 

How exactly are the PC's to fill in the answer? Do they have paint or something? 

Thanks  

 -Tatsu


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## Lonely Tylenol (May 1, 2005)

The first time I played Vampire: The Masquerade (back in 1st edition), my GM came up with a campaign that was centered around a chessboard.  What this meant was that everything that happened in the campaign would have been related to a predetermined set of moves in a particular game of chess that a couple of elders were having...the idea being, I suppose, that they were taking their game into the world and using various characters as pieces.

Anyway, one of the first things that happened was that the piece that represented one of the PCs was "taken", and removed from play, so his character was captured or something and he didn't show up to Elysium that night.  So he was apparently supposed to sit there and wait for the whole campaign.  Fortunately for him, the DM went off to the bathroom, and without knowing why he had set up a chessboard on the other table, we started fiddling with it.  When he came back, he was aghast.  His "clever puzzle" that would have given us the clues to figure out what was going to happen so that we could subvert the elders' plans eventually.

It turns out that he hadn't written down the positions of the chess pieces, and so the carefully planned order of play was destroyed forever.  Or something.  Anyway, he threw a fit and we were all of the opinion that it was a pretty dumb plan, and weren't interested in solving some chess puzzle anyway.  Campaign came to a grinding halt in the first session.

There are two morals to this story:

1. Don't hinge your campaign on a single puzzle, trick, or trap, without having a backup plan to keep the ball rolling.

2. Don't leave your cunning puzzle sitting around where the players can mess with it.


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## Ottergame (May 1, 2005)

Abraxas said:
			
		

> After looking at it again, I'm wondering if the DM didn't make up the whole thing with a pattern that is relatively easy to see when all the  symbols are present and then just erased some without noting that he had taken so many that there is no clue to the pattern anymore.




That's the conclusion I came to.  He had a pattern, but without trying to think of what is was going to look like to the players, he deleted some key symbols.  He wouldn't notice because he KNEW the answer, and would assume the players could figure it out.

But what gets me is that this is going to just let this long running game die like that.  More then the puzzle itself, THAT's the most boneheaded thing the DM has done.


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## Algolei (May 1, 2005)

Tatsukun said:
			
		

> That would explain the grammar error from the (assumed) native speaker.
> I like this idea the best of anything so far. But what order should be used? Simple left to right, top to bottom? Maybe there is some grouping?
> 
> Hmmm, I'll ponder more about your great idea!



I had a great idea?  Uh-oh!

I didn't count the squares very accurately, so I may be off.  Same goes for the letters in the sentence.  It was just something I thought of as I was concluding my previous post.  



Although, I _have_ been claiming to be an idiot savant all my life...!


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## toberane (May 1, 2005)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Anyway, one of the first things that happened was that the piece that represented one of the PCs was "taken", and removed from play, so his character was captured or something and he didn't show up to Elysium that night.  So he was apparently supposed to sit there and wait for the whole campaign.




Any Gamemaster who does something like this is a horse's hindquarters that I would never play with again.  I know this from experience.   I (indvertently) did this one time.

I was DMing a grojup of PCs, two of which weren't able to be there, at least for the first part of the evening.  I had the two absent PCs get kidnapped and the rest of the PCs went to rescue them.  Unfortunately, the rescue attempt took longer than expected (the rest of the night actually) and the 2 PCs who had been kidnapped were very unhappy once they showed up and had to sit there for several hours waiting for a chance to play.

A few important differences here, though... mine screw-up was accidental, while it sounds like Your GM planned ahead of time to remove a character from an entire campaign.  Mine was also for only on night, while your GM might have removed this player from several sessions of gameplay.  That is just a complete lack of respect for the players.

Needless to say, I haven't tried the "kidnap one of the PC's" ploy since then.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, did I mention that one of the players who's PC got kidnapped was my wife?  Yeah, she made sure I felt really bad about what I had done.


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## tkilburn (May 1, 2005)

*Naive response for the day*

Are we sure this isn't a simple answer hidden in pretty packaging?  I mean, a really evil villain might just make sure that all the blanks removed were the same symbol to make it easier for the henchmen, but lay it out in a complicated manner to fool intruders.


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## Tuzenbach (May 1, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> Is this helpful?



 Yes, actually. Color-coding the thing makes it easier to look at. It tells me that, as the three symbols are put into groups that border like symbols on ONE or more of each individual square's 4 sides, that the two blank squares on the extreme left CAN'T be triangles.


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## oracle of truth (May 1, 2005)

What if it is unimportant what symbols to fill into the blanks? I mean, as rushloght said, there are 3 blocks filled with circles, 3 with arrows, 3 with triangles but there are also 3 areas with blanks! Well just an idea.

But actually I think Algolei's suggestion is the best so far.


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## Wormwood (May 1, 2005)

I would like to humbly invite Andre La Roche, dunbruha, Jaws, Woas, hawkwing2k5, MarauderX, Kordak, or pbd to kindly post their solution the puzzle that they proclaimed to be "Very" or "Extremely" Easy.


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## Torm (May 1, 2005)

I think this thing may be a visual virus. I think that Roman is evil for posting it, and I don't think it was used in a D&D game at all - I think he's out to get _us_!


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## Tuzenbach (May 1, 2005)

*Fwiw..........*

"Fill in the proper symbols into the blanks"


If you deconstruct the above sentence, you do indeed get 35 letters. Moreover, there ARE 35 blank spaces. See if this helps:

A

BB

EEE

F

HH

III

K

LLLL

M

NNN

OOO

PP

RR

SSS

TTT

Y



What I'm getting at is putting all the 35 letters into groups of their own. After that, though, I'm a little lost. Could they be arranged in alphabetical order?


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## Tuzenbach (May 1, 2005)

HEY!!!!!!!!!!


The big section has 25 squares.........



THERE ARE 25 CONSONANTS!!!!!!


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## Tuzenbach (May 1, 2005)

Something about the "0"'s and the "O"'s determines how the vowels are distributed amongst the other ten boxes, methinks.


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## megamania (May 1, 2005)

Didn't vote.

I'm looking at this and thinking  "Why the **** do I need this headache?"

I see repeating with declining sequence but beyond that-  so what.


I enjoy puzzles but there has to be something to it that is fun.  This is not IMDA


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## Darkness (May 1, 2005)

apesamongus said:
			
		

> And this one puzzle was at the culmination of an extended campaign.  I'm sure plenty of different things led up to that puzzle.



 Yeah, the question is: Was it possible to come to a different end point (TPKs aside) than this one? Only the DM knows...


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## Torm (May 1, 2005)

Maybe it is a word trick? Maybe instead of any of the symbols shown, you're supposed to fill the blanks in with the "proper symbol" - the symbol for a proper subset. In other words, a 'U' turned 90 degrees clockwise.

Probably not, though.


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## Felikeries (May 1, 2005)

CODE=
c for 'cold' these sections are less affetced by the 't'
a for 'altitude' these sections take bordering cymbols to 1 relief map style
b for 'bubbled' this makes a rough hewn border at these and some 3 dimension
t for 'tornado' this whips the bordring stuff about

the result is a three dimensional relief key or rune that may be more obvious
to the players of this campiagn,as to it's significance


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## Quickbeam (May 1, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Someone needs to revoke his subscription to GAMES magazine.




LOL.  I used to subscribe to that magazine when I was in the 4th or 5th grade.


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## Quickbeam (May 1, 2005)

Tuzenbach said:
			
		

> "Fill in the proper symbols into the blanks"
> 
> 
> If you deconstruct the above sentence, you do indeed get 35 letters. Moreover, there ARE 35 blank spaces.




I'd say this is the right path to pursue, but only because the decreasing pattern appears to fall apart.  For my part though, I'd almost be tempted to just stick each of the 35 letters in the blank spaces in the order they appear in the sentence.

That doesn't seem to do much good either, but I've only invested then minutes on the puzzle to this point.

One other thing -- I agree with the sentiment that allowing an entire campaign to end on a puzzle with only one solution is rather weak.  The players/characters should have been given other means of overcoming this obstacle, although perhaps they were and we (they) aren't aware that's the case.


----------



## maggot (May 1, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> So you always give a reason why your Fighter with a really high attack roll managed to hit the creature with the really high AC, or why your monk managed to jump across a huge chasm?




Going the other direction, if you have all puzzles in game decided by INT checks and all negotiations decided by Diplomacy rolls alone, why not have all tactical decisions decided by Knowledge:Tactics rolls.  "You don't think to tumble over there Mr. Half-Orc rogue, because you don't have the tactical knowledge to do such a thing."  I think not.  Some decisions must be made by the players or the game is just a bunch of die rolling.  Apparently some players like rolling INT to solve puzzles, but for me that defeats the purpose of having puzzles in the game.

And to reiterate, I think having the game end on a puzzle is pretty lame.


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## Kae'Yoss (May 1, 2005)

I think it's a tactical map of the Battle of Endor, 25:34 minutes before the Death Star exploded. Now we just have to figure out which symbol represents which type of starfighter (I think that <-> is a tie fighter, that's pretty easy). 

No, seriously:
Roman: I want you to ask the DM for the solution, and what he was thinking when he did that to you. Then, you post that. If said DM won't cooperate, force him at gunpoint.




			
				toberane said:
			
		

> EDIT: Oh, by the way, did I mention that one of the players who's PC got kidnapped was my wife?  Yeah, she made sure I felt really bad about what I had done.




Did she pull a sneak attack? (Sneak Attack = attack where it hurts?).


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 2, 2005)

tkilburn said:
			
		

> Are we sure this isn't a simple answer hidden in pretty packaging?  I mean, a really evil villain might just make sure that all the blanks removed were the same symbol to make it easier for the henchmen, but lay it out in a complicated manner to fool intruders.




This is my favorite really evil answer of the thread.


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## D+1 (May 2, 2005)

Voted "extremely difficult" only because with the information we have at hand it cannot be _proven _ to be impossible.

Occams Razor - all things being equal the simplest solution is usually the correct solution.  35 letters in the instructions, 35 blank boxes that the instructions tell you to fill.  The rest of the puzzle is then irrelevant, serving only as a distraction for the actual, rock-simple solution.  That's assuming of course that those instructions are written verbatim and that there isn't a mistake in drawing up the "puzzle".

But, I must agree with everyone - why hinge the completion of an entire campaign upon a puzzle?  Why, when the players failed in due course to SOLVE the puzzle did the DM not provide additional clues to it's solution - especially given its be-all END-all significance to the campaign?  Why, when the players gave up on the CAMPAIGN for having given up on the PUZZLE did the DM not provide the players the solution?  Why did the players not ASK for the solution rather than just give up on the campaign in toto and start over?  And we have a DM who has given his players a TOTAL GAMESTOPPER of a puzzle and after more than a full session working on it lets the whole campaign to THIS point just... end?  No puzzle solution.  No alternate resolution to the campaign.  No additional clues.  

I REALLY gotta know what the DM was thinking here and why the PLAYERS let an otherwise good DM kill his own campaign with something so freaking lame.  If all there is to this story is what we're seeing here on the surface there are more people than the DM who need to be shot twice with clue hammers.  If that's all there is to this then the indication to me is that the DM was bored with the game and/or had no idea where to go, so either threw in this puzzle intentionally or took the opportunity of it going unsolved to just end the game.  But it still doesn't explain why the players let it all go.


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## Mark (May 2, 2005)

D+1 said:
			
		

> Voted "extremely difficult" only because with the information we have at hand it cannot be _proven _ to be impossible.




I don't know why anyone is voting at all.  Without knowing the actual answer, no one can verify that the puzzle is legitimate and, of course, if we have the answer we know it is not impossible.  Furthermore, if we get the answer and find out the puzzle wasn't properly presented, then we know the current answer to the poll is that it had been impossible.  The jury is still out on the 15 x 15 puzzle, but the poll is currently, by default, impossible to answer.


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## LeifVignirsson (May 2, 2005)

Maybet his is one of the JUMBLE word puzzles on crack?  Perhaps, when the letters of the sentence are rearranged, it might spell out the name of a god, a group of high powered people, a nation... something... That also might narrow down the focus of the letters a bit.  "This is a two letter word, this is a four letter word" and so on... I think the symbols are there to distract and confuse more than anything else.  Black them out and see if you can arrange words in the blank spots.


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## Zappo (May 2, 2005)

I haven't voted, because I haven't even tried to solve it... but, knowing the kind of feats which the collective brainpower of Enworld has pulled out in less than three pages in other cases, I'm leaning towards "extremely difficult" or "impossible".


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## Ao the Overkitty (May 2, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> I think it's a tactical map of the Battle of Endor, 25:34 minutes before the Death Star exploded. Now we just have to figure out which symbol represents which type of starfighter (I think that <-> is a tie fighter, that's pretty easy).




Ha! I'm not the only person who looked at those <-> and thought Tie-Fighter!

I'd like to vote "I suck at puzzles" but it is not an option.


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## Tuzenbach (May 2, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> I don't know why anyone is voting at all.  Without knowing the actual answer, no one can verify that the puzzle is legitimate and, of course, if we have the answer we know it is not impossible.  Furthermore, if we get the answer and find out the puzzle wasn't properly presented, then we know the current answer to the poll is that it had been impossible.  The jury is still out on the 15 x 15 puzzle, but the poll is currently, by default, impossible to answer.



 ..........which is why I haven't voted yet.


I've two solutions, but can't confirm either. The first is this (no, I haven't mastered Excel, so you'll have to bear with me):

There are three sections with blanks, yes? These sections comprise the following number of squares:

2

8

25


If we look at the sentence "Fill in the proper symbols into the blanks", we can break those words down into groups which fit those 3 sections:

2=in

8=Fill into

25=the proper symbols the blanks


At a guess, I'm thinking that as long as the correct groups are there, it should not matter which square holds which letter. Thus, "in" could be put either "n" first, then "i", or vice versa. 



Here's the second solution: 

25=consonants

10=vowels

Again, put all of the consonants in the section with 25 squares. As long as they're grouped the way the original 3 symbols are grouped (i.e., at least touching each other's side, but not the corners), there shouldn't be a problem.

Then, do the same with the vowels. The only really tricky bit here is which vowels get put in the section of 2 squares to form a group? We have eee, iii, ooo, & a. It'd be better if there was a group of two vowels, but oh well.


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## BiggusGeekus (May 2, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> I don't know why anyone is voting at all.




Voting in online polls validates my existence.


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## JustaPlayer (May 2, 2005)

The answer is 42


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## Roman (May 2, 2005)

Wow, I truly like Algolei's solution.   It could be correct - I will have to ask the DM about it to be able to tell you. If it is correct it might matter how the symbols are filled into the blanks. People here have provided some interesting suggestions, but it could be as simple as filling them in order (left to right or to to bottom). 

Yes, the DM is a native English speaker, but I am not so I did not even notice there was a grammatical error in the instructions.   

As to why we as players did not do more to protest the ignominous end of a year-long enjoyable campaign, well I certainly did mention that I was dissapointed that the campaign ended this way and the DM said that he shares the dissapointment. I guess he expected us to be able to solve the puzzle without too much difficulty - we have successfully solved lots of puzzles before. Apart from that, though, what is there to 'protest'? It is a pity the campaign ended this way, that much is true, but it is the DM running the campaign and we tend to believe that ultimately the DM can take his/her game anywhere he/she wants - I guess we are just a very docile group and get along too well together to make a fuss about any game.   I would therefore appreciate if the remarks overtly hostile to our former DM were turned down. Thanks!  

So... it is better to look at this as an opportunity to start afresh rather than being too hung up on the late camapign as good as it was. Currently, one of the players in the former game is running a new campaign which all of the old players have joined including the DM of the last game. The start looks promising and I enjoy playing my new character - a mad feral druid, who already caused several interesting 'situations'.   

It is just that the puzzle keeps on bugging me - I simply need a solution! I am sure you get that feeling sometimes. That's part of the logic of posting the puzzle here so that you people can try to tackle it.


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## darkelfo (May 2, 2005)

I think this puzzle has two solutions. 

The first is...



			
				Ottergame said:
			
		

> I solved the puzzle. The answer: Your DM is an ass.




Read my next post for the second.


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## darkelfo (May 2, 2005)

Here is the second solution:



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> It's interesting, because my answer came out to be "never again game with anyone who hinges an entire campaign on such an "unfun" puzzle."


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## Torm (May 2, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> It is just that the puzzle keeps on bugging me - I simply need a solution! I am sure you get that feeling sometimes. That's part of the logic of posting the puzzle here so that you people can try to tackle it.



So you can make us crazy, too, you mean.  

Your campaign is over. Get him to give you the solution. Some of us don't even believe there _is_ one. And now you're gonna have to have it at some point, to tell us, er thar's gonna be a lynchin'.  

(Just kidding. But still....  )


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## darkelfo (May 2, 2005)

I would invite you to have you GM post on these boards, but I think it would get so heated that the thread would be instantly closed. I can't hink of an appropriate way tp hold this GM out to the public ridicule he deserves and still abide by the forum rules. I guess the best way is to refer readers to two original posts. This "GMs" actions speak for themselves.


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## Roman (May 2, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> So you can make us crazy, too, you mean.




Well, I would not want to deny you the opportunity would I?   



> Your campaign is over. Get him to give you the solution. Some of us don't even believe there _is_ one. And now you're gonna have to have it at some point, to tell us, er thar's gonna be a lynchin'.
> 
> (Just kidding. But still....  )




I did ask for the solution after the campaign ended, but the DM was not forthcoming. He did, however, acquiesce to give me the puzzle to post on the net, so I am sure he will tell me if a solution from any of you is correct.


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## RSKennan (May 2, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> I don't know why anyone is voting at all.  Without knowing the actual answer, no one can verify that the puzzle is legitimate and, of course, if we have the answer we know it is not impossible.  Furthermore, if we get the answer and find out the puzzle wasn't properly presented, then we know the current answer to the poll is that it had been impossible.  The jury is still out on the 15 x 15 puzzle, but the poll is currently, by default, impossible to answer.




You and D+1 have blinded me with science.  I voted impossible, because my hunch is that the GM didn't have a solution and the whole thing was a snipe hunt to buy time ... but I'm probably wrong. I'm probably unfairly projecting the tactics of a certain bad GM I know onto this guy.


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## Roman (May 2, 2005)

RSKennan said:
			
		

> You and D+1 have blinded me with science.  I voted impossible, because my hunch is that the GM didn't have a solution and the whole thing was a snipe hunt to buy time ... but I'm probably wrong. I'm probably unfairly projecting the tactics of a certain bad GM I know onto this guy.




By impossible, I obviously mean impossible within reasonable expectations. I assume the puzzle does have a solution.


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## darkelfo (May 2, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I did ask for the solution after the campaign ended, but the DM was not forthcoming. He did, however, acquiesce to give me the puzzle to post on the net, so I am sure he will tell me if a solution from any of you is correct.




A miser to the end. Heck, a miser beyond the end.


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## Torm (May 2, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I did ask for the solution after the campaign ended, but the DM was not forthcoming. He did, however, acquiesce to give me the puzzle to post on the net, so I am sure he will tell me if a solution from any of you is correct.



Well, that settles it then. I give up until you tell me you have a working solution in YOUR hands. I'm not going to accuse your DM of not actually having a solution at all, as some have done, but I will suggest that I've seen too many puzzles that were improperly administered somehow or were so removed from context as to be next to impossible.

Let us know.


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## Abraxas (May 2, 2005)

> I did ask for the solution after the campaign ended, but the DM was not forthcoming. He did, however, acquiesce to give me the puzzle to post on the net, so I am sure he will tell me if a solution from any of you is correct.




Did you try a simple substitution of the letters in the phrase "Fill in the proper symbols into the blanks" into the blanks?
in one of the following patterns
left to right or right to left from the top down
left to right or right to left from the bottom up
top to bottom or bottom to top from left to right
top to bottom or bottom to top from right to left

If not ask if any of those are the solution.


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## Mark (May 2, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> By impossible, I obviously mean impossible within reasonable expectations.





How is that obvious?  This might be part of the problem here.  I think you might have given us only partial information (for whatever reason) and for some reason think it's good enough.  There's an accuracy that is inhernetly required between a puzzle, its presentation, and the solution that I am not sure you understand.

In any event, as I posted earlier, there's no real way to gage the difficulty level of the puzzle without knowing the answer, so the poll is a waste of time.




			
				Roman said:
			
		

> I assume the puzzle does have a solution.





I wouldn't and that's the flip side of the first part of my post.  There are any number of reasons why, after the campaign has been forsaken, the DM would not be "forthcoming" (as you put it, for I don't know what reason).  Most of the reasons that I can come up with do not suggest that the DM actually had a straightforward answer to the puzzle, whether he did from the start or not.


I won't be satisfied that there is an actual answer, nor one that could be gleaned from the presentation, until you post it here.  Despite your posting that you actually want to know the answer to this puzzle yourself, you haven't convinced me that there is one.


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## RithTheAwakener (May 2, 2005)

JustaPlayer said:
			
		

> The answer is 42




but what is the question....


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## Abraxas (May 2, 2005)

RithTheAwakener said:
			
		

> but what is the question....




"What is 6 x 9?" of course


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## Torm (May 2, 2005)

Abraxas said:
			
		

> "What is 6 x 9?" of course



Nonsense. No one makes jokes in base 13.


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## Nyeshet (May 2, 2005)

I'm baffled. But the suggestions from Tuzenbach and Algolei seem to be on the right track. Personally I was thinking that perhaps the letters represented symbols, and you enter in the resulting pattern of symbols (the former sentence) to determine the answer. 

Perhaps, 

Triangle: A, K, L (?), M, N, T, Y
Crossed Circle: B, O, P, R, S (?)
<-> : E, F, H, I, L (?), S (?), 

Hmm, that results in 10 (or 14) triangles, 9 (or 12) crossed circles, and 9 (or 12, or 13, or 16) <->. That doesn't seem to be an answer either . . . .


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## ColonelHardisson (May 2, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I did ask for the solution after the campaign ended, but the DM was not forthcoming.




Maybe he plans on using it again...?


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## SuperGamera (May 2, 2005)

Could it be a game board of some sort?  Like Go or something equivalent, with the symbols corresponding to white stones, black stones, and open spaces?


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## Nifelhein (May 2, 2005)

This is _not_ a puzzle, it does not give any clue to how one is to actually solve it, it is like a crosswords without the hints to each word, completely unworthy of my time. If the Dm hinted for the solution at the game during different times and made it sot hat you would get there and have a reasonable chance fo solving based on knowledge and not expectation, then it would be a puzzle.

I sure like puzzles, but unless you have a criptographer in your group please keep it far from criptex and mental challenges to the players, we play for fun, not because we want to break the next security code NASA is using.


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## toberane (May 2, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Maybe he plans on using it again...?





That was my thought, and if this is true, I say run hard, run fast, run as far away as you can.


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## Remathilis (May 2, 2005)

Psssst. The Matrix has you.

Pass it on.


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## jmucchiello (May 2, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Maybe he plans on using it again...?



To what purpose? He already knows that his group can't solve it.

I don't understand why he wouldn't give the answer. Roman is saying it went down as follows:

Spend a whole session, can't solve it.
Spend 10 minutes next session, players say: We give up.
DM says: Okay, you're dead. Next campaign
Everybody starts making new characters.
Roman: So what was the answer?
DM: Er........

There is no excuse for not answering the question: What the f did we waste all our time on that beat us? To not immediately start drawing symbols onto the piece of paper AND explaining why they go there is extremely rude. This isn't a magician guarding he secrets. It's group of people in a friendly game. Once you give up, if he doesn't provide the solution, I have no reason to believe he has a solution.

My opinion of the DM somehow is lower now than when I read the first thread. Didn't think that was possible.


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## Greylock (May 2, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I did ask for the solution after the campaign ended, but the DM was not forthcoming. He did, however, acquiesce to give me the puzzle to post on the net...



I've said this already, but I'll say it again...

That's plain mean.

Your game, your life and everything, but this would make me seriously question the fellow. Looks like a control freak at worst, and as an xxx at best, as has been pointed out so many times in this thread.


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## Greylock (May 2, 2005)

jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Once you give up, if he doesn't provide the solution, I have no reason to believe he has a solution.



Good point. I think there might be a combination of things going on. Thinking back to the  example of the screwed up chess board puzzle and also to the idea that he made the riddle in full and then erased areas. But it's entirely plausible he lost or never had a solution.

Again, flat out mean one way or the other.


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## Raging Epistaxis (May 2, 2005)

Ha! I've got it!

I fell asleep at my computer staring at the ascii version of the puzzle.  
My head fell forward and hit the keyboard.

When I came to, I saw the face of [religious figure] in the box!

Now I just need to figure out what keys left their reverse imprint on my forehead.  

Failing that, I suspect there may not be a solution.  I'm no gamemaster by any means, but I can fathom no pattern.

R E


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## Castellan (May 2, 2005)

I have a nagging feeling that there *is* an answer to this puzzle. However, I think that (a) the DM almost certainly did not "get" the concept of the puzzle well enough to be able to provide an accurate context, and (b) was not able to solve it himself. He may even have been thinking that someone in his group (and now ENWorld) could solve it for him.

Could it be a MENSA puzzle of some sort? Or something from a really bad video game?

I doubt the DM could ever give us the solution, because he doesn't know it, nor does he know how to solve it.

He may be a great guy, but if I played in a game with a campaign-ending puzzle like this, there'd be no end to the bitching from everyone involved. It wouldn't go well in our group.


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## Lonely Tylenol (May 2, 2005)

I suspect that the DM does have an answer to the puzzle.  But I also suspect he doesn't have a solution to it.  What I mean is, somewhere there's a sheet of 8.5x11 that has a grid with symbols on it, which completes the board...that's the answer.  But for there to be a solution, the answer has to follow from the given problem by some path of logic.  Which is to say that the existing symbols must exclusively dictate the missing symbols and no other symbols.  If they fail to dictate the symbols, or dictate some other set of symbols, or multiple sets of symbols (even if one set is correct), then the DM has no solution to the puzzle.

Unless he pulled this puzzle out of the "fun & games" section of a math journal, there's probably no solution.


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## Testament (May 2, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> DM was not forthcoming. He did, however, acquiesce to give me the puzzle to post on the net, so I am sure he will tell me if a solution from any of you is correct.




It is at this point that the GM should be stabbed in the face.  What possible point is there to NOT revealing the answer.  Then we can reverse engineer it and give an official verdict on it.

The fact that the brains trust of ENWorld can't solve it in three pages suggests to me that there is no answer.


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## LeifVignirsson (May 2, 2005)

Testament said:
			
		

> It is at this point that the GM should be stabbed in the face.




Why do I envision the 8 bit Theater crew having fun with something like this... Red mage trying to change his stats to solve it, Fighter going on about swords, Thief trying to attract people to view the puzzle and Black Mage trying to stab them all?

Maybe the missing symbols are Final Fantasy sprites... Makes as much sense as anything I have come up with...


----------



## Testament (May 2, 2005)

LeifVignirsson said:
			
		

> Why do I envision the 8 bit Theater crew having fun with something like this... Red mage trying to change his stats to solve it, Fighter going on about swords, Thief trying to attract people to view the puzzle and Black Mage trying to stab them all?
> 
> Maybe the missing symbols are Final Fantasy sprites... Makes as much sense as anything I have come up with...




Red Mage: It's a simple puzzle.  Now be quiet while I put my infinite genius to work on this.

Black Mage: It's not a puzzle, it's nonsense.  I'll just blast the doors down and the problem's solved.

Fighter: It's a map to Swordtown!  See!  There's the valley of Swords!

Thief: Excuse me. <sets up stand charging people to try and discover the meaning of life>

Red Mage: I have it!

Fighter: It's there!  It's the legendary Swordtown!

Black Mage: <sound of stabbing>  HADOKEN! <blasts doors>  Hmm..really was simple!


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## dnabre (May 2, 2005)

Easy or Impossible.

Assuming there is no other information, that you don't realize is relevant to present, there is no unique and definitive solution to the puzzle. 

My solution, draw smile faces in each blank. It's a valid solution to the puzzle, but very unlikely to be the solution your DM wants. There may be some internal logic to the puzzle, but without that logic, it's a guessing game. So I'm picking Easy, puzzle is very easy to solve, as far as it's possible to solve. 

If my DM pulled what yours did. I wouldn't be gaming with him again. He'd be lucky to get me to speak with him again. A campaign ending for whatever reason would upset, for a stupid reason even more so, but putting a puzzle before that I'm supposed to be able to solve, to which the only way of definitively of solving to checking the DM's solution, and him not giving me that solution (after all is over and done with) is simply evil. There's no other way to put. 

Personally, I'd tell him to you the solution. If he wouldn't give me the solution (if it was a lame puzzle, that's ok, even if a campaign ended up over it) or admit he doesn't have a solution, the only reasonable assumption is that he's intentionally being cruel to you or he's not willing to admit his own mistake.


----------



## Nareau (May 2, 2005)

Well, as near as I can figure, there are only 50,031,545,098,999,707 (3^35) possible solutions to this puzzle.  Assuming it only takes you 30 seconds to try each possible solution, that works out to about 47,594,696,631 years.  If I were you, I'd explain to your DM that my character is trying every possible solution he can.  Indeed, I'd suggest to the DM that we work out these combinations in real-time.  Slow and steady wins the race, right?

I think after 9 or 10 hours of "Hey, how about this solution...does this one work?!  OK, how about THIS ONE?", my DM would get the picture that this kind of puzzle is NOT FUN in a big way.  If he didn't cave by this point, I'd go start a new game.  Ugh.

Spider


----------



## darkelfo (May 2, 2005)

Tell your GM we solved the puzzle, but then refuse to give him the answer.

Or [insert other nonsensical response to nonsensical, capricious absurdity].


----------



## Romnipotent (May 2, 2005)

darkelfo said:
			
		

> Tell your GM we solved the puzzle, but then refuse to give him the answer.




nice 
The actual answer came to me in a divine dream last night. As you find the puzzle, it is either magical, or mechanical. If it is Magical then you break down the place. If it indeed mechanical, you break down the place.
Dig a hole, break down a door, walk through stone past the puzzle... why couldn't you come back later? were you trapped in a cell? There should always be a way around something. Of course, it comes down to a DM saying "doesn't work" anyway. Did the puzzle give you a key? a gem? a magical wind up set of chattering teeth? Meld with Stone is a very nice spell... or Ethereal Jaunt. 
I dont know what level you were or what resources you could get, but theres things to cover this.

Having read the previous thread for this... Get the puzzle wrong again, and make a deal with whatever comes through the portal, find out where the portal leads, jump through the portal... its a way out


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## the Jester (May 2, 2005)

jmucchiello said:
			
		

> To what purpose? He already knows that his group can't solve it.
> 
> I don't understand why he wouldn't give the answer. Roman is saying it went down as follows:
> 
> ...




All right, I have to respond to this.

If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer.  _They might go back to that same puzzle some day._ 

It's like telling the players about the secret door they missed in the last dungeon only to have their characters return to search it out!  I've learned my lesson about that kind of thing, that's for sure.  No matter whether the pcs encounter the mystery or not, it remains mystery until unraveled in my campaign.  There are lots of 'big secrets' that the pcs have never even touched on imc, or ones they've barely brushed against.  I don't show my cards until the characters get to see them; there are no player previews.

Frankly, I'm a little disappointed at the level of vitriol being hurled at Roman's dm.  He has told us in a couple of different posts that the guy is basically a good, fun dm; I don't think it's fair to judge him on a single puzzle taken, frankly, far out of context by everyone.  I think this puzzle is definitely a valid challenge; the thing that makes it ruinous is the pcs' inability to retreat and try other things while they chew it over.  

Anyhow, I'd like to echo Roman's request that everyone take it a lil easier on his dm. 

(Edit: On the other hand, I'd like to know what happened to the pcs- did they starve?  Was there a slow death trap that killed them after a few hours?  Could they just keep trying different combos til they got it?)


----------



## A'koss (May 2, 2005)

I've just had a look at this (wondering what all the hubbub is about) - I'm sure it's just a refection grid puzzle in 5x5 squares - only the DM messed it up in a couple of spots so that it's not perfect. I mean, it's possible it could be some kind of PAP test or Game of Life, but I'm sure it's not. The grid reflection is too perfect with just a couple of errors on the designer's part..


----------



## Errant (May 2, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> All right, I have to respond to this.
> 
> If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer.  _They might go back to that same puzzle some day._




I have to disagree with this. Fair enough you can't let players act on a solution given out of game play, but I think its grossly unfair to through something at your players they can't overcome (not saying YOU do that Jester) & not give them some explanation/satisfaction. Its as bad as putting a CR30 dragon in a 4th level dungeon with no way past it but combat (unless its after you told them about the secret door they missed).

Then there's the whole PCs vs players knowledge bit. Was there anyone in the party with an Int or Wis score high enough the character might have been smarter than the player? Was there any chance to solve it (or get more clues) by roll of dice? Solving it the hard way should have resulted in a big fat reward but there should have been other options.

Thats my 2c worth anyway.

I'm not voting. "Mean DM, mean, mean, mean." Isn't at option.


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## Ds Da Man (May 2, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> All right, I have to respond to this.
> 
> If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer.  _They might go back to that same puzzle some day._
> 
> ...




What are you talking about man? He's going to let the entire campaign die because of this stupid so-called puzzle! Were it my friend DMing, and he did this crap (which this puzzle has nothing to do with the PCs, only the players) to the party, I would offer to DM, and continue on with the same characters. No roll for a chance to figure it out, and the campaign is over. BAD DM


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## TheAuldGrump (May 2, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> All right, I have to respond to this.
> 
> If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer.  _They might go back to that same puzzle some day._




Maybe if you were DM you would _try_ to use it again. But at this point I think that you would then be left wondering 'where did my players go?'

The puzzle:
A) Serves no good purpose in the game.
B)Wasted a full game and then some of the player's time.

The players were more willing to have the campaign end than deal with the puzzle. Are you _sure_ that you would still try to run it again?

The Auld Grump


----------



## the Jester (May 2, 2005)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> Maybe if you were DM you would _try_ to use it again. But at this point I think that you would then be left wondering 'where did my players go?'




Two points:

1. What's to prevent the players from trying again once they know the answer?

2. Who's to say that a different group of players, possibly including some of the same ones, won't encounter it some day?

I'm not necessarily talking about 'trying to use it again', I'm talking about pcs trying to solve it again.

Again, I'll reiterate: the mistake the dm made was making this impossible to retreat from.  There's nothing wrong with doing other things while you work at a puzzle or riddle.


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## darkelfo (May 2, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer. _They might go back to that same puzzle some day._




Well the campaign is over. The DM was stubborn enough to ax the whole game over. The least he could do would be to cough up the answer.



			
				the Jester said:
			
		

> Frankly, I'm a little disappointed at the level of vitriol being hurled at Roman's dm.




I agree its always best to be more politic in communication. Perhaps I have been to forceful in my expression of disappointment.

But I don't think the substance of what is being said is un-called for. No one has been able to figure out the puzzle and that's with lots of people thinking about it. So you have this GM who threw this unreasonable puzzle at his players and then axed the whole campaign when they couldn't solve it. I don't have an 18 intelligence in real life, but my wizard does. Why didn't the GM let people make some kind of intelligence chick? There are many ways he could have avoided this fate.

Instead, he was a stubborn ass about it, and I mean that in the four-legged sense. Weeks (months?) of character development and time invested by all of his players all out the window for his little caprice and power trip. This is GMing at its worst and it deserves all the derision it gets, if not in the manner in which some of us have posed it. 

I respect that you feel contrary, Jester.


----------



## the Jester (May 2, 2005)

Actually, I haven't spoken to the issue of it being a 'player puzzle' rather than a 'character puzzle.'  

I would probably fill in a few squares for the party based on the highest Int check they could make or something, personally.  I like riddles, puzzles and other 'tricks' like that, but I also try to reward pcs who build characters for social skills, intelligence, etc.  It is sometimes hard to balance, but I think hints are the way.


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## darkelfo (May 2, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Actually, I haven't spoken to the issue of it being a 'player puzzle' rather than a 'character puzzle.'
> 
> I would probably fill in a few squares for the party based on the highest Int check they could make or something, personally. I like riddles, puzzles and other 'tricks' like that, but I also try to reward pcs who build characters for social skills, intelligence, etc. It is sometimes hard to balance, but I think hints are the way.




I think it was Crothain posted a good system earlier with intelligence tied to how long it took to solve the puzzle. There were lots of ways around what happened to Roman's party.


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## Errant (May 2, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Two points:
> 
> 1. What's to prevent the players from trying again once they know the answer?
> 
> ...




1. Straight up out of game warning from the DM that if they're given the solution they can't use it in game. If they rebel & insist they get past the puzzle to find the treasure room (or whatever the puzzle was protecting) was looted long ago by someone else.

2. They get past the puzzle to find the treasure room (or whatever the puzzle was protecting) was looted long ago by someone else, or they find another puzzle...

I agree entirely about it being bad for the dm to make it impossible to work around the puzzle. 

Hell, why couldn't they PCs copy down the puzzle & go seek out a sage or something? That could even lead to another adventure (sure, I can decode that, but first I need you to...).


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## Kae'Yoss (May 2, 2005)

Errant said:
			
		

> Hell, why couldn't they PCs copy down the puzzle & go seek out a sage or something? That could even lead to another adventure (sure, I can decode that, but first I need you to...).




Because they were trapped in the room with the puzzle, and there was nothing they could do to escape or contact the outside world. They tried.

And that's the best part, really. A puzzle that is virtually unsolvable and not literally everything depends on it. DM's doing things like that should be rounded up and shot, IMO.


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## jeffh (May 2, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> All right, I have to respond to this.
> 
> If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer.  _They might go back to that same puzzle some day._




-ahem-

Since you apparently missed it the first 37 times.

It ended the campaign.

There is no "coming back", there is no "some other day".

And if the GM is planning on using it again after this fiasco, then he does indeed deserve all the derision he's getting. Bad enough he made what is pretty close to the worst possible GMing mistake once; if he hasn't learned his lesson...


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## Algolei (May 2, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Frankly, I'm a little disappointed at the level of vitriol being hurled at Roman's dm.  He has told us in a couple of different posts that the guy is basically a good, fun dm; I don't think it's fair to judge him on a single puzzle taken, frankly, far out of context by everyone.



I concur.  Just as you can't decide whether this puzzle has an answer based on the information given, you can't decide whether a DM is good at his job based on one event.  I can certainly envision a situation where I would do the exact same thing.

Furthermore those who think the puzzle is impossible based on the fact that it's gone so long without being solved here aren't accounting for the ease which the DM's presence at the table can make.  For instance, 9 dependent questions which you could ask and have answered in under a minute could take us 9 days to get answered over the internet.

Now then *rubs hands together* back to the puzzle.  

From the other thread:  







> ...the room we were in actually had three portals that spewed forth monsters and killed two party members (whom we revived though), but we destroyed the portals and are defeated by the puzzle.



This is the same room?  Three gates, three different symbols in the puzzle.  Is there a connection?  Did the gates have these symbols on them?  Do the monsters have the symbols on their bodies/equipment anywhere?

Plus you didn't answer how the symbols were to be entered into the puzzle.  Were your characters supposed to write them in the blank spots?  If so, were the other symbols written there previously?  If so, how many different handwritings were used?

Tell us what the symbols in the puzzle looked like from a physical standpoint.  Were they engraved onto a wall?  Handwritten, as I asked about above?  Were they tiles set into the puzzle?  Perhaps there are more tiles somewhere which could be used to solve the puzzle.

Perhaps each symbol only needs to be put into the puzzle once to solve it--the rest could be left blank.

Who built this dungeon in the first place?  Dwarves?  Humans?  The gods?

Tell me about your DM.  How old is he?  What kind of educational background does he have?  What sort of hobbies does he enjoy?  Does he like solving puzzles himself?

The symbols themselves are interesting, and we should figure out why they in particular were used.  Did the DM use them only because they were available to him in excel?  Or did he go to a lot of trouble to make them himself?


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## Malic (May 2, 2005)

I really should read the whole thread before voting ... I went for 'Very Difficult' (or is it 'Extremely'?) assuming there must be an answer, but having heard that the ex-GM still won't give the answer, I would guess 'Impossible' is more likely.

The ex-GM can't be too bad having run a campaign apparantly enjoyed by all for a year and ended with no ill feeling. It is hard to believe based on this incident though. How could everyone, especially the GM, just let the campaign end like that, unless they were already sick of it?

I'd be interested to hear the answers to Algolei's context questions though, Roman, as well as what actually happened to your characters (ie. did they starve to death?)

I suppose the 'Easy' voters aren't going to enlighten us.


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## Coredump (May 2, 2005)

Algolei said:
			
		

> I concur.  Just as you can't decide whether this puzzle has an answer based on the information given, you can't decide whether a DM is good at his job based on one event.




I disagree. If someone does a great job as a DM, but then every year or so does a "you picked the wrong door, all characters are dead, there is nothing you can do about it" he is still a bad DM.

The problem isn't the puzzle, the problem is that he made people throw away the entire campaign because of a stupidly hard puzzle to solve.

Hell, throwing it away for an easy puzzle is a bad DM move. Either have a way past the puzzle, or have a way to ignore it and move one. Maybe you don't get to rescue the girl, but that doesn' meant you have to end the campaign.

Yeah, I can say "Bad DM" with pretty high confidence on this one.


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## Gwaihir (May 2, 2005)

*Players #1 Rule*

This whole deal stands on its head my players #1 rule.

Don't waste too much time on a puzzle, because if it really is important the DM will eventually give you enough hints to solve it.

I'm baffled.


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## jmucchiello (May 2, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> All right, I have to respond to this.
> 
> If I was the dm, and the puzzle was out there in my campaign world, and the pcs failed to solve it- I would not give them the answer.  _They might go back to that same puzzle some day._



They are locked in a room with no teleport, no passwall allowed. Clerics don't regain spells. They cannot get out of the room except to solve the puzzle. The players decided that they were never solving the puzzle and the GM said, Okay, game over. They will never go back. I'm guessing they starved/dehydrated to death eventually.


> Frankly, I'm a little disappointed at the level of vitriol being hurled at Roman's dm.



Actually, just the fact that they are in a dungeon with no teleport and the clerics cannot regain spells sets off my warning signs. Even if the puzzle were simple, the fact that they cannot solve it and not solving it effectively ends the campaign is BAD.


> Anyhow, I'd like to echo Roman's request that everyone take it a lil easier on his dm.



And I'd like to echo the request that Roman point his DM at this thread (don't tell him to post though!) so he can see another reaction to his campaign.


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## billd91 (May 2, 2005)

Coredump said:
			
		

> I disagree. If someone does a great job as a DM, but then every year or so does a "you picked the wrong door, all characters are dead, there is nothing you can do about it" he is still a bad DM.
> 
> The problem isn't the puzzle, the problem is that he made people throw away the entire campaign because of a stupidly hard puzzle to solve.
> 
> ...




I don't know that I can say "Bad DM" in general on this one. I can say "stunningly bad DM choice, what the hell was he thinking". I don't think a dumb, stubborn choice every once in a while makes a decent DM be a bad DM in general. 
But based on that "stunningly bad DM choice, what the hell was he thinking" ruling of mine, I think the DM has lost any right to keep the puzzle for future use. It's a proven campaign killer. Time to purge it from the DM's set of tools. He should surrender the solution to the players and let them judge whether it was even within their grasp, or correct for that matter. He should explain to them how they might have been able to figure out the key to the puzzle step by step to prove that the puzzle is, in fact, solveable. It's the decent thing to do for both his players and himself.


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## Seeten (May 2, 2005)

Perhaps the DM advised the players it would be difficult and dangerous to enter, and they best be advised they might die before they did so, and yet, despite all warnings, they chose to enter the temple of the dark god.

Sometimes, things dont go your way do to player fiat, not DM.

I had a level 1 player willfully attack a lernean hydra. And that attack again after it had left, having just killed the horses. What to do?


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 2, 2005)

I am completely uncommitted to any discussion of the quality of your DM.  I am, however, completely distracted by the puzzle to the point of insanity.

PLEASE get the man to give you the solution.  I'm going on vacation soon, and I don't want to have cleared all my work and real life problems from my plate to have this silly thing nagging at me the whole time.


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## Algolei (May 2, 2005)

Coredump said:
			
		

> I disagree. If someone does a great job as a DM, but then every year or so does a "you picked the wrong door, all characters are dead, there is nothing you can do about it" he is still a bad DM.



_Not if that's what that particular campaign was all about._

If the whole campaign was about getting past this puzzle, and the players somehow ignored all the clues, the characters deserve to die.  It's just the end of those characters, not the end of the game of D&D forever.

What's the problem with a campaign involving a realistic impediment to success?  If this is some sort of epic dungeon that has defeated every comer unti now, yet the defenses weren't enough to keep anyone out, why haven't others accomplished the goals already?  Should such a situation suddenly be easy for the PCs just because they're PCs?

I wouldn't want to play in a campaign where failure was impossible.  That's just too masturbatory for me.  

(But there _has_ to be an answer to the puzzle, otherwise my entire argument collapses.  )


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## radferth (May 2, 2005)

I would say the party discovered the correct solution to the puzzle about ten minutes into the second session.  There in nothing inheritly wrong with TPK inducing death traps unless they are unavoidable.  What seems to me to be jerk-like behavior is to drop the party into a TPK inducing death trap and not tell them for over an entire session.


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## Lord Judas (May 2, 2005)

Since he wont give out the answer post-game, lump me into the crowd that thinks he either made a major blunder presenting it (like a few messed up symbols), -or- he plans on using it, or a variant of it, in the future <shudder>.

Regardless of past performance, not fessing up once the books are packed up is pretty cruel.


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## Andre (May 2, 2005)

Lord Judas said:
			
		

> Since he wont give out the answer post-game, lump me into the crowd that thinks he either made a major blunder presenting it (like a few messed up symbols), -or- he plans on using it, or a variant of it, in the future <shudder>.
> 
> Regardless of past performance, not fessing up once the books are packed up is pretty cruel.




My solution is simplicity itself: Have someone else in the group start a campaign. After character creation, the players are told that their characters are locked in a room. There's no food or water. The only way out is to solve a puzzle...with circles...and double arrows...and upside-down triangles.

Either the ex-GM produces the solution, or the campaign ends. Rinse and repeat until the ex-GM gives the solution or he fesses up and admits there isn't one.


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## Kae'Yoss (May 2, 2005)

Algolei said:
			
		

> _Not if that's what that particular campaign was all about._




That's bad campaign design, and he's still a bad DM.



> What's the problem with a campaign involving a realistic impediment to success?  If this is some sort of epic dungeon that has defeated every comer unti now, yet the defenses weren't enough to keep anyone out, why haven't others accomplished the goals already?  Should such a situation suddenly be easy for the PCs just because they're PCs?




Realistic? "nothing you can do except solving this puzzle will ever get you out of here, and if there were clues, you cannot go look for them, because you cannot get out of here." Realism my donkey.

And there is some middle ground between "easy" and "impossible". 



> I wouldn't want to play in a campaign where failure was impossible.  That's just too masturbatory for me.




And what do you call a campaign where success is impossible? To use your analogy, that would probably make you an eunuch


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## tarchon (May 2, 2005)

"I cast Prestidigitation and use it to make all 50 quadrillion combinations of symbols appear on the grid, leaving each one a couple femtoseconds."


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## T. Foster (May 3, 2005)

Without passing judgment on this particular puzzle (which _I_ certainly can't solve, but then again I never claimed to be good at solving puzzles -- or a particularly good D&D player, for that matter) I really don't see this situation as necessarily indicative of bad DMing. Depending on how much freewill the party exercised in getting themselves into this predicament (whether they chose or were 'forced' to go into this dungeon, various preparations and precautions they possibly could have taken to allow escape/retreat, etc.) it's quite possibly entirely appropriate that the entire party be wiped out and the campaign ended by their failure to solve _a_ puzzle (if not necessarily _this_ particular puzzle). I admire this DM for sticking to his guns and refusing to fudge the result when the party wasn't able to solve the puzzle. He obviously felt that they _should_ have been able to solve it, and assuming he was correct -- that the puzzle is actually solvable -- then it's perfectly appropriate for him to have enforced the predetermined consequences (especially if there were things the party could've done differently to avoid or mitigate them) and to have done otherwise would have been to cheat the players who (presumably) like such puzzle-oriented challenges -- the player did mention that the campaign had been going for a year, and that this was by no means the first such puzzle that they had faced. 

If the DM structured the adventure in such a linear fashion that the party truly had no choice but to solve this puzzle or die -- that there was no way other actions by the players could've either avoided this puzzle entirely or allowed them the possibility of escaping after they'd failed to solve it -- then that would definitely be a problem, but the problem would be his having structured the adventure linearly, not his having challenged the players with a puzzle that he expected they'd be able to solve and requiring that it be solved in order to progress further/survive.

This sort of 'player-centric' challenge-based orientation may not be your prefered method of play -- you may prefer that DMs not use puzzles at all, or allow Int checks to solve them, or give out the answer if no one can solve it in x amount of time -- but just because you don't like to play that way doesn't mean it's illegitimate for those of us that do. I know that as a player I _prefer_ situations where I'm expected to stand or fall on the basis of my own abilities and can't rely on the DM to fudge results in my favor if I'm not up to the challenge, because in such situations the stakes (the life of the character) are real. Without the possibility of loss, victory is meaningless, and nothing makes me lose interest in a game faster than realizing that the DM is fudging results and giving the players a free ride, usually for the sake of some predetermined linear 'story arc' about which I couldn't care less. YMMV.


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## Mark (May 3, 2005)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> This sort of 'player-centric' challenge-based orientation may not be your prefered method of play -- you may prefer that DMs not use puzzles at all, or allow Int checks to solve them, or give out the answer if no one can solve it in x amount of time -- but just because you don't like to play that way doesn't mean it's illegitimate for those of us that do. I know that as a player I _prefer_ situations where I'm expected to stand or fall on the basis of my own abilities and can't rely on the DM to fudge results in my favor if I'm not up to the challenge, because in such situations the stakes (the life of the character) are real. Without the possibility of loss, victory is meaningless, and nothing makes me lose interest in a game faster than realizing that the DM is fudging results and giving the players a free ride, usually for the sake of some predetermined linear 'story arc' about which I couldn't care less. YMMV.





There is a middle ground where there are lesser ways to "end around" the puzzle and not get the full benefit of having solved it.  And, certainly, there are ways of people dying in a campaign without it ending.  I think that is what most people are finding incredulous.


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## moritheil (May 3, 2005)

jeffh said:
			
		

> -ahem-
> 
> Since you apparently missed it the first 37 times.
> 
> ...





Hey, jeffh, I think these folks can help you with the problem you seem to be having:

http://www.lionsclubs.org/EN/content/about_index.shtml

You really ought to do something; I'm told that straining to see only makes it worse.


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## Roman (May 3, 2005)

Wow, lots of questions to answer. I will get back to them in a couple of hours, now I have to run, but for now let me just say that I have spoken to the former DM again about the puzzle and since the campaign is over, he gave me several powerful clues that I can share with you: 

1) Algolei's answer of filling in the letters into the blanks is wrong. 
2) The blanks are to be filled with only the three symbols that are present in rest of the grid. 
3) The symbols have no significance outside of the puzzle and there is no significance to them being triangles or circles or arrows - you could replace them with any other three symbols and the puzzle would be unaffected.


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## Mark (May 3, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Wow, lots of questions to answer. I will get back to them in a couple of hours, now I have to run, but for now let me just say that I have spoken to the former DM again about the puzzle and since the campaign is over, he gave me several powerful clues that I can share with you:
> 
> 1) Algolei's answer of filling in the letters into the blanks is wrong.
> 2) The blanks are to be filled with only the three symbols that are present in rest of the grid.
> 3) The symbols have no significance outside of the puzzle and there is no significance to them being triangles or circles or arrows - you could replace them with any other three symbols and the puzzle would be unaffected.





I no longer believe that your DM has a solution that is solvable given what you have presented.


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## T. Foster (May 3, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> There is a middle ground where there are lesser ways to "end around" the puzzle and not get the full benefit of having solved it.  And, certainly, there are ways of people dying in a campaign without it ending.  I think that is what most people are finding incredulous.




Oh I certainly agree that this outcome was far from ideal (as, I'm sure, does the DM involved), and as a DM I'd never _deliberately_ set up a situation where the entire party was faced with a puzzle with no option but to solve it or die (and thus effectively end the campaign) but that (at least IMO) comes down more to an aversion to 'linear plotting' and putting all of the campaign's eggs into a single basket than to 'puzzle' situations per se. The impression I've gotten from reading most of the really hostile responses here was not "what a bad move to hinge the entire future of the campaign on succeeding at a single task" but rather "what a bad move to use a player-oriented puzzle in such a situation" -- as if had the DM done the exact same thing except with a combat or skill check instead of a puzzle it would've been perfectly fine.  

Yes, the DM undoubtedly blew it here, but the way he blew it was by not allowing any means of retreat/escape (or at least none that the party recognized) and perhaps by making the puzzle too hard/impossible (though I'm still reserving judgment on that), not by including such a puzzle in the first place without allowing the characters to solve it by Int checks or giving them the answer after x amount of time, which is what many of the responses in this thread have been seeming to suggest.


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## darkelfo (May 3, 2005)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> Yes, the DM undoubtedly blew it here, but the way he blew it was by not allowing any means of retreat/escape (or at least none that the party recognized) and perhaps by making the puzzle too hard/impossible (though I'm still reserving judgment on that), not by including such a puzzle in the first place without allowing the characters to solve it by Int checks or giving them the answer after x amount of time, which is what many of the responses in this thread have been seeming to suggest.




Well, it sucks both ways. In the setup with no escape and in the lack of options to by-pass.


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## DonTadow (May 3, 2005)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Aye, that's dull, boring, completely uninteresting, and nearly impossible to boot.  It'd take hours of careful examination and writing to even come close to figuring out whatever absurd pattern is there.
> 
> Whoever thought that sort of "puzzle" would be something appropriate to "challenge" (more like bore and frustrate) the PCs with is a freaking moron.  No other way to put it.  If the DM didn't even present the PCs with the chance for Intelligence checks or NPCs to ask, then he's simply a freaking moron or a jackass.
> 
> ...




I agree completely.  This puzzles brings up a 25 year old gamer question ? Should you confuse your (the player) knowledge with your character's intelligence.  Puzzles are great but a poorly done puzzle (like this)  takes your characters out of the game and puts you the player into it.  That is completely unfair.  It is the equivelent as to if, during game, I put out a cinder block and told the dwarf fighter's player to break the cinder block.

Your DM failed as this puzzle for two reasons, he did not provide ample enough knowledge to the pcs to solve the puzzle and he did not provide a good consequense for not solving thepuzzle 

I love puzzles, I use them all the time and I have about one every two or three sessions.  The player's love to test their intelligence.  However, I as a dm would never let the "thinking" session for a puzzle go beyond 10 to 20 minutes (in game).  By 5 to 10 minuts if the pcs can't solve it with their personal intelligence they start asking fori ntelligence rolls that bring out clues as to how to solve it.  Now, to make sure hte puzzle doesn't lose its fun and for players not to think "oh we'll just wait until the dm solves it for us", these puzzles have to be  solved in an "ingame" time sensitive matter. If the player's don't solvethe puzzle within an allotted time and the clues arn't helpful then I'll give a player a "big hint" about the puzzle based on intelligence, knowledge or diniviation rolls.  If all that fails then an answer is provided for the puzzle and consequenses (which usually are either an extra boss battle, an explosion or trap of some kind, precious time waisted )are assessed.  If its an optional room them I devalue the optional npc or treasure 

It is really boring and no fun if a campaign ends because you could'nt solve a puzzle.  I would not know what to do if my campaign (as a player or dm) ended because of a puzzle.    I think of everything dnd as a puzzle from combat (attempting to figure out how to kill the regeneratng hydra) to stealth (how do we keep out of sight from the observant Yuan-ti) to flat out puzzle and riddle solving .  I think all DMs put puzzles into games if you think of it like that.


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## Dagger75 (May 3, 2005)

You know what going to happen, your all going to the answer and not understand where it came from.  Then you are going to ask for an explanation to the answer.  

 Sounds like a movie that just came out.

BTW I am done tryong to solve it.  I gave up after about a half hour of not seeing a patter.  I would have started attacking the wall and telling the DM to start keepng track of damage to the wall.


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## A'koss (May 3, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Wow, lots of questions to answer. I will get back to them in a couple of hours, now I have to run, but for now let me just say that I have spoken to the former DM again about the puzzle and since the campaign is over, he gave me several powerful clues that I can share with you:
> 
> ...



Then I'm even more certain now that it is a 5x5 grid, border reflection puzzle with a couple of errors in the original design. If not, and it's some "Game of life" puzzle or something equally esoteric I would be mightily inclined to lynch the DM.  



			
				DonTadow said:
			
		

> I agree completely. This puzzles brings up a 25 year old gamer question ? Should you confuse your (the player) knowledge with your character's intelligence. Puzzles are great but a poorly done puzzle (like this) takes your characters out of the game and puts you the player into it. That is completely unfair. It is the equivelent as to if, during game, I put out a cinder block and told the dwarf fighter's player to break the cinder block.



I don't agree with this entirely. I think it is more than fair, hell - even a desirable thing, to challenge the player directly in the game. Pure knowledge (facts) can best be handled by Intelligence and Knowledge skills but _reasoning_ ability should be entirely in the player's hands. Otherwise the metagame fallout could be ugly - "I use my intelligence to find a way out of X predicament."

A'koss.


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## Slife (May 3, 2005)

I try to sunder the puzzle.  Roll for hardness.

What about Mordy's Disjunction?  If anything would get rid of the puzzle, it would be that.

Stoneshape the puzzle to be entirely one type of symbol, and then fill in the single missing one.

When in doubt, chant "Hastur".  IF you have to end the campaign, might as well do it in style.  Then, when one of your characters dies, challenge Death to a game with him... A PUZZLE GAME!  Win/Win solution -- you either have invulnerable PCs and can wait the howevermany billions of years trying solutions, or the first PC to die causes the gate to be opened.


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## Mark (May 3, 2005)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> Oh I certainly agree that this outcome was far from ideal (as, I'm sure, does the DM involved), and as a DM I'd never _deliberately_ set up a situation where the entire party was faced with a puzzle with no option but to solve it or die (and thus effectively end the campaign) but that (at least IMO) comes down more to an aversion to 'linear plotting' and putting all of the campaign's eggs into a single basket than to 'puzzle' situations per se. The impression I've gotten from reading most of the really hostile responses here was not "what a bad move to hinge the entire future of the campaign on succeeding at a single task" but rather "what a bad move to use a player-oriented puzzle in such a situation" -- as if had the DM done the exact same thing except with a combat or skill check instead of a puzzle it would've been perfectly fine.
> 
> Yes, the DM undoubtedly blew it here, but the way he blew it was by not allowing any means of retreat/escape (or at least none that the party recognized) and perhaps by making the puzzle too hard/impossible (though I'm still reserving judgment on that), not by including such a puzzle in the first place without allowing the characters to solve it by Int checks or giving them the answer after x amount of time, which is what many of the responses in this thread have been seeming to suggest.





You might want to back up a bit there.  If you'll read back over what I have written, you'll notice that I've qualified what I have said with a caveat regarding what Roman has actually presented.  I'm not even convinced at this point that the DM has done anything wrong until I see the actual solution from the DM and can compare to what Roman has shown us.  I'm just as open to the possibility that Roman has this all screwed up which is becoming more and more of a possibility the longer we don't get a straight answer to the puzzle.


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## Mark (May 3, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> This puzzles brings up a 25 year old gamer question ?




30+


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## Abraxas (May 3, 2005)

Something I've just thought of but don't have time to check out . . .
Is it possible its a magic square?
If each 5x5 block can be assigned to the numbers 1 thru 9 it could make a 3x3 magic square, or more difficult, if each 3x3 block can be assigned to numbers 1 thru 25 it could make a 5x5 magic square

basic 3x3
6 7 2
1 5 9
8 3 4

basic 5x5
19   01   12   08   25
21   04   15   07   18
09   20   11   23   02
10   16   22   14   03
06   24   05   13   17


----------



## Remathilis (May 3, 2005)

I've been looking at this puzzle, and have considered the following:

If there is no outside or campaign issues (riddles, clues, dreams, prophecies) than this is simply a deduction method. This means that the puzzle HAS internal logic that, given enough time to determine it.

If there is a pattern, there is no easy or perhaps available method of determining. Its certainly not as easy as "four triangles, three circles, repeat" 

The puzzle's answer cannot be affected by the campaign or game. No Legend Lore, Intelligence check, epic spell, or deific intervention can solve this puzzle. 

The symbols themselves have no inherit meaning. The triangles could be mountains, "A"'s or phallic symbols, it doesn't matter. The shapes have no relation on the outcome.

The three symbols are the only things available to the solver. No outside clue, mark, or other symbol can be used.

The blank can be filled by any combonation of symbols. It could be solved by all triangles, no triangles, or any combonation in between. Someone suggested there are over 5,000,000,000,000,000 combonations, making trial and error impossible. 

Unless the pattern was deduced, no PC could escape, even with near constant trial and error. (assuming no penalty for failure of course). 

The pattern could be a coded word, a mathmatical equation, or simple "fill it all in with O"s. 

Columns 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 13 and 14 are complete (no missing symbols). There are no rows that are complete. 

Required time to solve this puzzle: Assuming a group of 4 average intelligence, you could assume 12-24 hours to deduce the pattern. A computer program could deduce the possible combonation in 2-3 hours, assuming no problems in programming. A hint could shave 1 hour or more. Given time for your average campaign: 4-6 hours. 

Final Analysis: I highly doubt any character, or even player, could or would want to solve this puzzle as an entertainment exercise. 

I award the DM no points, and we are all dumber for trying to solve this.


----------



## tarchon (May 3, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Then I'm even more certain now that it is a 5x5 grid, border reflection puzzle with a couple of errors in the original design. If not, and it's some "Game of life" puzzle or something equally esoteric I would be mightily inclined to lynch the DM.



Several large subblocks exist that almost fit various symmetries, in some cases if you interchange symbols. Most sets of symbols are highly compact and connected, which is probably significant.


----------



## orsal (May 3, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> I no longer believe that your DM has a solution that is solvable given what you have presented.




How odd. On the basis of this same clue list, I no longer believe that the DM *didn't* have an answer in mind.


----------



## arscott (May 3, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Wow, lots of questions to answer. I will get back to them in a couple of hours, now I have to run, but for now let me just say that I have spoken to the former DM again about the puzzle and since the campaign is over, he gave me several powerful clues that I can share with you:
> 
> 1) Algolei's answer of filling in the letters into the blanks is wrong.
> 2) The blanks are to be filled with only the three symbols that are present in rest of the grid.
> 3) The symbols have no significance outside of the puzzle and there is no significance to them being triangles or circles or arrows - you could replace them with any other three symbols and the puzzle would be unaffected.



Did you ask him if he's absolutely sure on those two sets of symbols that screw up the symmetry?  It's possible he made an error (or his source did.


----------



## A'koss (May 3, 2005)

tarchon said:
			
		

> Several large subblocks exist that almost fit various symmetries, in some cases if you interchange symbols. Most sets of symbols are highly compact and connected, which is probably significant.



Exactly. I did notice there was one grid that did work unadjusted (5 from the left, 10 from the left, 1 down, 14 down) but not helpful enough to solve it this way. I'm sure it's just those two little errors mucking up the works on a 5x5 grid. As far as puzzles in general goes... I generally like them myself, but (as a DM) unless I knew there were some puzzle gearheads in the group I'd never have thrown something like this at them. 

A'koss.


----------



## D-rock (May 3, 2005)

Well, are we going to have to resort to resurrecting all those people that lived during World War II that did nothing but try to decipher German code for years on end, link all the super computers in the world, and involve NASA to see if there really is a answer to this.


----------



## Greylock (May 3, 2005)

Ya know? The more I look at the puzzle, the more it starts to remind me of the old Avalon Hill game Feudal.

Maybe it's a version of the tired old "You are the chess pieces" riddle, except the players are supposed to be a Prince, Duke or King. Maybe a troop of Pikemen or Sergeants...Oooh, I see where the Archers go....


----------



## Mark (May 3, 2005)

orsal said:
			
		

> How odd. On the basis of this same clue list, I no longer believe that the DM *didn't* have an answer in mind.




Then you have the solution?  You know that what has been presented fairly represents clues that will lead to a solution?  (Or are you just being contrary?)


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae (May 3, 2005)

More detail, Greylock?


----------



## Mark (May 3, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> (snip)




It's been a month, now.  Fix your sig.


----------



## Greylock (May 3, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> More detail, Greylock?




Sorry, Patryn, but that was just a lark. Feudal makes much more sense than this puzzle. You all can thank it and many other similar games for my presence in gaming today. I sell myself not as a roleplayer, but as a tactician.


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae (May 3, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> It's been a month, now.  Fix your sig.




Are you a Mod?


----------



## Greylock (May 3, 2005)

*decided to not go there*

Ignore this post...


----------



## Torm (May 3, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Are you a Mod?



Neither am I, and you're within your rights to keep it, of course - but it IS a bit odd that you would want to.  

Unless you have some specific reason, like you're keeping it so you can add to it when the next version of SigVirus comes along.


----------



## Mark (May 3, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Neither am I, and you're within your rights to keep it, of course - but it IS a bit odd that you would want to.
> 
> Unless you have some specific reason, like you're keeping it so you can add to it when the next version of SigVirus comes along.





Yup.  I just didn't want to spend more time going into details.  I figured he check it out, say to himself, "Oops", then fix it and be done with it.  It's like when someone passes you in a crowded restaurant with toilet paper on their shoe.  You briefly say, "Your shoe..." and leave it at that.  But as long as Patrick chose to make a big thing out of it, what's with that anyway?  Do you feel that is something that you purposefully want to keep in your sig?  I hadn't realized that, if so, then more power to you, I suppose.  If I was in your shoes, though, I think I'd just kick the TP off and quietly mumble a "thank you."  But that might just be me.

If I was a mod, I'd have either emailed you about it or just fixed it for you.


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae (May 3, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> Yup.  I just didn't want to spend more time going into details.  I figured he check it out, say to himself, "Oops", then fix it and be done with it.




Right.  Which is why you posted "It's been a month, now. Fix your sig."

Not, "Hey - did you realize you're still suffering from the .sig virus?"  Or, "Heh - haven't updated your .sig in a while, huh?"

Commands from non-mods about modsy stuff is pretty rude, as near as I can tell.

So, at the risk of carrying this little diversion from the real topic even farther off into the bushes ...



> But as long as Patrick chose to make a big thing out of it, what's with that anyway?  Do you feel that is something that you purposefully want to keep in your sig?  I hadn't realized that, if so, then more power to you, I suppose.




I've left it there so far because it still continues to amuse me.  I don't really have anything else to add to it, I don't have a favorite d20 publisher or story hour to pimp, my old one was just my screen name, it's still shorter than some others' .sigs, and, more importantly, I still enjoy it.  Should any of the above conditions change, I'll change my .sig accordingly.



			
				Torm said:
			
		

> Neither am I, and you're within your rights to keep it, of course




"Torm, when someone asks you if you're a Mod, you say 'YES!'"


EDIT:

So, on that note, back to campaign-ending puzzles.


----------



## Mark (May 3, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> I've left it there so far because it still continues to amuse me.





Fine by me.



			
				Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> I don't really have anything else to add to it, I don't have a favorite d20 publisher or story hour to pimp,





I don't suppose I could talk you into...  Nah.  Bad timing.


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae (May 3, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> I don't suppose I could talk you into...  Nah.  Bad timing.




Bwahah!

Well done!

Actually, I just checked out what you've got on RPG Now ...  Unfortunately, the demo version of the variant rules pack appears to be corrupted, so I can't in all honesty pimp that particular work ...


----------



## William_2 (May 3, 2005)

I haven't voted, as that seems to be a ticket to "Solve it then, smart mouth!".   It does _seem_ solvable, though.  I'm assuming someone more patient than myself being involved.  
I don't think a campaign ending with an unsolved riddle is necessarily worse than one that ends with everyone dead after failing in combat; depends on the overall nature of the campaign, I would think. 
Below is a stab.  It may not be right, but it has a certain easy logic.  Without someone having the correct answer, and saying one is either right or wrong, I am not sure there is any resolution.  I think this one is right, myself, and there is nothing that I can _see_ is wrong with it, since the puzzle has no context.  


C C C A A A A A A C C T T T T 
C C C A A A A A A C C T T T T 
C C C A A A A A C C C T T T T 
C C C C A A A A C C T T T T C 
C C C C A A A C C C T T T C C 
C C C C A A C C C C T T T C C 
C C C C A A C C C T T T C C C 
A C C C A A C C C T T T C T C 
A C C C T T T C C T T A A T C 
A A T T T T C C C A A A A T C 
A A A T T T C C C A A A A T C 
A A A T T T C C A A A A A T T 
A A A A T T T T T T T T T T T 
A A A T T T T T T T T T T T T 
A A A T T T T T T T T T T T T


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (May 3, 2005)

I'm a Mensa candidate (just haven't applied- I have the scores)

I've tried magic squares, math equations, all the tricks I know for the past hour.

That there is a solution, I don't doubt, but its a tough enough puzzle that it has no place at the gaming table.

You're there, eating junk food and drinking sodas & possibly beer...

And this DM wants to push your minds THIS HARD?

My only solution so far:  Kick your DM in the nards.


----------



## TheAuldGrump (May 3, 2005)

Got another possibilty as to the DM's behavior - he copied the puzzle from a book and either:
A: Knows the answer, but not _why_ the answer works.
or
B: Knows the answer and now realizes that he screwed up the puzzle while copying it, so now that answer does not work.

In both cases pride prevents him from answering the players.

The Auld Grump


----------



## Elephant (May 3, 2005)

jeffh said:
			
		

> -ahem-
> 
> Since you apparently missed it the first 37 times.
> 
> ...




Well, at least he didn't get into a land war in Asia


----------



## TheAuldGrump (May 3, 2005)

One thing I do when creating a mystery or puzzle in my game is to test it out on a message board first. (Not E.N.World - it is too big, and I am not a paid member, so no PMs to keep it secret from snooping players.) If I get at least one or two answers that are right, or at least in the ballpark then I use the mystery or puzzle. If not I rework the puzzle or add more clues.

It seems to work okay. One stumped the party, but they worked around it.

The Auld Grump


----------



## PapersAndPaychecks (May 3, 2005)

No, the solution isn't to make a puzzle that it's easy for messageboard posters to solve during their lunchbreak.  I think that the secret of using puzzles is correct placement.

You put them on the entrances to side-areas which are treasure-rich.  For example, deep in a dungeon, you might have a puzzle which leads into an area which is stuffed full of cash and contains two or three fairly useful magic trinkets that's guarded only by two dozen zombies and a fairly lame trap.  The characters don't _need_ to solve the puzzle in order to continue - but if they do solve the puzzle, they're rewarded for doing so.


----------



## Goblyn (May 3, 2005)

That puzzle is _hard_.  I'm going to try some more. If I can't get it, I'm going to ask Roman to please ask his DM for the answer. But not now. It's late now. Fatigue makes my brain go away.


----------



## Algolei (May 3, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> 1) Algolei's answer of filling in the letters into the blanks is wrong.
> 2) The blanks are to be filled with only the three symbols that are present in rest of the grid.
> 3) The symbols have no significance outside of the puzzle and there is no significance to them being triangles or circles or arrows - you could replace them with any other three symbols and the puzzle would be unaffected.



Yarg. :\ 

What about some of my other questions, then?



			
				Algolei said:
			
		

> Plus you didn't answer how the symbols were to be entered into the puzzle.  Were your characters supposed to write them in the blank spots?  If so, were the other symbols written there previously?  If so, how many different handwritings were used?
> 
> Tell us what the symbols in the puzzle looked like from a physical standpoint.  Were they engraved onto a wall?  Handwritten, as I asked about above?  Were they tiles set into the puzzle?  Perhaps there are more tiles somewhere which could be used to solve the puzzle.
> 
> ...




Also, did you try writing in each symbol only once?  Perhaps it's a very simple function of "signing in," so to speak.


----------



## RSKennan (May 3, 2005)

Roman, what was the configuration of the room that you were in?


----------



## cmanos (May 3, 2005)

my gut instinct is it is a map or a picture.  I'm not gonna take my time to look for a pattern otherwise.  Odds are if it is a map or a picture uit has something to do with your game, something you aren't giving us.

So your DM gave you a puzzle, it ended his game and he still is not telling you the answer?  What an ass.....


----------



## Hellefire (May 3, 2005)

My vote so far is the 5-sided mirror-squares, but with some intentional errors...not mistakes, some non-mirror squares that equal out to zero mathematically. Still working on that. But if someone else solves it first I won't be heart-broken.


Aaron Blair
Foren Star


----------



## Enforcer (May 3, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Are you a Mod?




Ray: Um, no...

Gozer: Then DIE!!!

(Moments later)

Winston: Ray, when someone asks if you're a mod you say YES!

(Sorry, that was the first thing I thought of when I read that.)


----------



## jmucchiello (May 3, 2005)

I can't attempt to solve the puzzle because I want to fill it in with Gs and claim it's some kind of unrolled DNA strand. But I know that's an artifact of the presentation here and nothing to do with the puzzle.



			
				Elephant said:
			
		

> Well, at least he didn't get into a land war in Asia



Or against a Sicilian when death is on the line....  Er, is DM Sicilian?


----------



## JDowling (May 3, 2005)

if you were a big bad evil lich and this puzzle room was your last line of defense would you:
1 - make it so anyone who is very intelligent and good at puzzles can break it in a couple of hours or days

or

2 - make it be a 32-place (or however many it was) combination lock with 3 choices per position that appears to be a puzzle but really isn't?  It might look like you could find some logic to solve the "puzzle" but it might not be a puzzle at all and given the number of combinations brute-forcing it is not likely to succeed within the life span of even the longest lived age-limited foes.

Perhaps this is a case of just a smart lich that the DM decided to do realistically instead of "fun but unrealistic"ly.

It might acctually be a puzzle, or it could just be a devious lich who wants to torment his foes as they waste away in his little room trying to figure out a red-herring and going mad.

Also - which is more devious and evil: a series of 32 squares that is obviously just a combination lock with no hints or a combination lock that looks like a puzzle that appears (but doesn't really) have a logical way to solve it (so it's not really a puzzle)?

The mechanics of "the PCs can't do anything" is a little wacky.  Is the room in a closed-off demi plane or something?

anyway, just food for thought


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 3, 2005)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> Ray: Um, no...
> 
> Gozer: Then DIE!!!
> 
> ...




Me, too.

"Where's your Mod now? There is no Mod, he's only in your imagination. You always talk of Mod's will, but it's just your own selfish needs."


----------



## Torm (May 3, 2005)

jmucchiello said:
			
		

> I can't attempt to solve the puzzle because I want to fill it in with Gs and claim it's some kind of unrolled DNA strand. But I know that's an artifact of the presentation here and nothing to do with the puzzle.



That was actually the first thing I thought, too, and I was disappointed when it had nothing to do with it.  

"Kneel, Son of Jor-El! Kneel before *Mod*!"


----------



## Roman (May 3, 2005)

Algolei, 

This is the same room as that with the three gates byt the gates did not have any symbols on them nor did the monsters. In any case, as I wrote in my previous post the DM has now informed me that the symbols have no significance outside of the puzzle, so this is now moot. 

The symbols were engraved into the puzzle at the door. There was no indication as to how we should fill the blanks - no info on whether to engrave or handwrite them. That said, it almost certainly makes no difference - if we solved the puzzle it probably would not matter and the DM would let us through. When we were trying various things we simply said we 'filled in' the blanks in such and such a manner and did not specify how (as in whether we wrote them on or engraved them) and the DM did not ask how. 

The dungeon was built by the worshippers of the dark gods eons ago. We do not know everybody who participated in its construction, but we do know that the elves were tricked into helping the construction. 



> Tell me about your DM.  How old is he?  What kind of educational background does he have?  What sort of hobbies does he enjoy?  Does he like solving puzzles himself?




The DM is in his late 20s/early 30s and is a teacher. I do think he does enjoy solving puzzles. 



> The symbols themselves are interesting, and we should figure out why they in particular were used.  Did the DM use them only because they were available to him in excel?  Or did he go to a lot of trouble to make them himself?




Well, as we have now been told, the symbols have no significance in and off themselves - any three different symbols could be used to make the puzzle with no difference.


----------



## Roman (May 3, 2005)

RSKennan said:
			
		

> Roman, what was the configuration of the room that you were in?




The room was rectangular. There were two portals near the left wall and one portal near the right wall. The ceiling was about 12 feet high. There were two doors - one wooden door we entered through and one stone door on the opposite end of the room. In the center of the room was there was apparently a big pile of treasure (copper, silver and gold coins), but it was really an illusion and the area in the center instead had some kind of death effect. There was one demon and two undead of some sort in the room when we entered and once every several rounds (I am not sure how many exactly - perhaps 5-10 rounds) each of the portals spewed forth a new monster. The one on the right wall spewed forth the big demon monster and the two on the left wall spewed forth the two undead. Whenever the undead hit they did some damage and forced the target to make a fortitude save or die. The big demon monster had the ability to cause some area effect fire and to deal out more damage than the undead, but had no death effects. I doubt any of this has any impact on the solution to the puzzle though.


----------



## Roman (May 3, 2005)

William_2 said:
			
		

> I haven't voted, as that seems to be a ticket to "Solve it then, smart mouth!".   It does _seem_ solvable, though.  I'm assuming someone more patient than myself being involved.
> I don't think a campaign ending with an unsolved riddle is necessarily worse than one that ends with everyone dead after failing in combat; depends on the overall nature of the campaign, I would think.
> Below is a stab.  It may not be right, but it has a certain easy logic.  Without someone having the correct answer, and saying one is either right or wrong, I am not sure there is any resolution.  I think this one is right, myself, and there is nothing that I can _see_ is wrong with it, since the puzzle has no context.
> 
> ...




William 2, would it be possible to explain the logic behind filling the blanks in this manner?


----------



## Roman (May 3, 2005)

Mark, I assure you that I am not leaving out anything that I believe to be relevant to the puzzle. If you think something else is relevant that I have not stated feel free to ask for that and I will give you the info. That said, I suspect it is a logic puzzle where no info can help except solving the pattern - this seems to be especially true given the new clues that the DM now gave me and that I posted in one of my previous posts.


----------



## Mark (May 3, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Mark, I assure you that I am not leaving out anything that I believe to be relevant to the puzzle.





It doesn't matter what you believe.  Since you don't know the answer (or even if there truly is one), you're not qualified to judge what is or is not relevant.




			
				Roman said:
			
		

> If you think something else is relevant that I have not stated feel free to ask for that and I will give you the info.





Just give absolutely, every last little bit of info you were given.  You don't know the answer, so you don't know if you have been withholding some vital piece of info that was given to you by the DM.  You may have even forgotten something and never be able to share with us something that is vital to solving the puzzle.  Without knowing the answer, there's no way you will ever know.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> That said, I suspect it is a logic puzzle where no info can help except solving the pattern - this seems to be especially true given the new clues that the DM now gave me and that I posted in one of my previous posts.





What use is what you suspect?  You don't know the answer.  That you don't follow the logic of what I have been saying leads me to believe that you aren't the go-to guy for help solving a logic puzzle.  Frankly, if you hadn't been around these boards for so long, I'd have written you off as a troll before page one of this thread.


----------



## arscott (May 3, 2005)

Was the illusory treasure just one big pile in the middle?  or was it in some pattern of its own?


----------



## Pielorinho (May 3, 2005)

*Moderator's Notes*:  Folks, keep an even keel, and do not engage in personal attacks.

Daniel


----------



## Roman (May 3, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> Just give absolutely, every last little bit of info you were given.  You don't know the answer, so you don't know if you have been withholding some vital piece of info that was given to you by the DM.  You may have even forgotten something and never be able to share with us something that is vital to solving the puzzle.  Without knowing the answer, there's no way you will ever know.




I gave you absolutely every last bit of info our group was given that I think could be even remotely related to the puzzle (and more, because the DM gave me clues after the camapign ended and I posted them here). What you seem to be asking for if I understand correctly is me writing out the whole campaign in complete detail - something I cannot do not only due to time constraints, but also because I cannot possibly remember a year's worth of weekly gaming in sufficient detail to do that. 



> What use is what you suspect?  You don't know the answer.




I do not know the answer but surely the new clues that can be found in one of my previous posts indicate that it is likely to be an internal pattern in the puzzle. 



> That you don't follow the logic of what I have been saying leads me to believe that you aren't the go-to guy for help solving a logic puzzle.  Frankly, if you hadn't been around these boards for so long, I'd have written you off as a troll before page one of this thread.




No, I am not a troll and my DM is not an idiot... sigh.


----------



## Roman (May 3, 2005)

arscott said:
			
		

> Was the illusory treasure just one big pile in the middle?  or was it in some pattern of its own?




It was just a big pile in the middle.


----------



## Roman (May 3, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *Moderator's Notes*:  Folks, keep an even keel, and do not engage in personal attacks.
> 
> Daniel




Thank you Pielorinho. I would particularly appeal to all posters to cease the hatred towards my former DM. He really is a good guy. Thanks!


----------



## tarchon (May 3, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I gave you absolutely every last bit of info our group was given that I think could be even remotely related to the puzzle (and more, because the DM gave me clues after the camapign ended and I posted them here). What you seem to be asking for if I understand correctly is me writing out the whole campaign in complete detail - something I cannot do not only due to time constraints, but also because I cannot possibly remember a year's worth of weekly gaming in sufficient detail to do that.



Wait - that demon - what was his shoe size?


----------



## Mark (May 3, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I gave you absolutely every last bit of info our group was given that I think could be even remotely related to the puzzle (and more, because the DM gave me clues after the camapign ended and I posted them here). What you seem to be asking for if I understand correctly is me writing out the whole campaign in complete detail - something I cannot do not only due to time constraints, but also because I cannot possibly remember a year's worth of weekly gaming in sufficient detail to do that.




Here's the problem, "that I think could be even remotely related to the puzzle" doesn't help because you simply do not know.  The only thing you can do is to GET THE ANSWER so that you can be a fair arbitor in this thread.  Unless you have the answer, you have no idea whatsoever if the presentation allows for someone to divine the answer themself.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> I do not know the answer but surely the new clues that can be found in one of my previous posts indicate that it is likely to be an internal pattern in the puzzle.




"surely" How so?  You don't know the answer so there is no "surely".



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> No, I am not a troll and my DM is not an idiot... sigh.




I said neither so don't act like I did.


----------



## jeffh (May 3, 2005)

While I don't doubt the DM had a solution in mind, I remain convinced that he obliterated and/or incorrectly transcribed too much of the puzzle for the players to have any reasonable way, other than lucky guessing, to solve it. I'm sure there is *some* train of thought by which it could be done, but the players, as far as I can honestly tell, were given no way of knowing that *that* train of thought, and not some other, was the one to use.


----------



## T. Foster (May 3, 2005)

Roman, does your DM typically give you any sort of feedback at the end of adventures/sessions -- telling you what things he thought you did well, what things he thought you did poorly, things he thought you'd do that you didn't or thought you wouldn't do that you did? Did he give any hints that he would have hoped or expected that your party would've done anything differently in this adventure except for solving that final puzzle? Does he typically include many red-herrings, false clues, and other distractions and time/resource-wasters in his dungeons? If in fact this campaign-ending puzzle was actually a red herring of some sort do you think he would've let on in some way? Perhaps you weren't actually supposed to 'solve' this puzzle at all and were actually supposed to do something completely different? That would be a very devious (I daresay downright Gygaxian) trick -- confront the players with an unsolvable (except by luck) puzzle, and watch them sweat over it, waste all kinds of time and resources trying to solve it, and eventually die of frustration (literally), when in fact they were never expected to actually solve it, and should've done something else entirely (likely something very simple that in hindsight/retrospect would be completely obvious)...


----------



## Roman (May 3, 2005)

Several people asked some questions about the campaign. What happened to the characters when the campaign ended? Was it our choice to go into the dark temple or did the DM impose this on us and was there a warning that the temple is dangerous, etc.? Were we prepared to go into the evil temple and did we research it before venturing in? Why were we unable to simply leave? I will attempt to answer these questions here: 

The question of what happened to the characters was left somewhat open, but death from starvation or dehydration was the leading theory discussed. Clerics can, of course, create food and water, but when they run out of spell points that they cannot regain death would eventually come. It would take a while though. 

It was fully our choice to go into the evil temple and the DM did not force us to go in at all. We were amply warned that the dark temple is very deadly before we ventured in. As I have already mentioned in the previous thread we knew of the restrictions on clerical magic and resting in the evil temple and as I have also mentioned we have found ways to minimize them. We researched the dark temple to a very reasonable degree before delving inside. This research was done through several means, including general research, various divination spells, visiting the elves who helped create it (when we learned they were involved in the creation of the temple), paying a 'visit' to the three 'lesser' evil temples of each of the three dark gods (the main evil temple was their combined temple), as well as acquiring odd bits and pieces of information while on other adventures. Our preparations were also pretty extensive. Before going into the dark temple, we have conducted several supporting adventures in which we acquired (some of it as reward from the elves for doing certain things for them and some in other supporting adventures): two artifacts that would allow two clerics to cast spells in the temple (still no resting, no turning undead, etc. but at least they could cast some [but not all] spells - without the artifacts they could not cast any spells at all), a dust of resting that would allow the party to rest in the temple one single time (though clerics would still not regain full spell points in this rest - they would get about 20% of their spell points back), 5 potions of heal/ressurect all (these would even bring people from the dead with no level loss), 5 potions of replenishing spell points (these would work even inside the temple for either clerics or wizards) and 5 potions that could be used to destroy the otherwise indestructible summoning portals in the evil temple that constantly summon in more monsters. 

As to why we cannot return to the surface, it is a matter of resources versus what would await us on the way back. Getting here, we have expended (and that was being very thrifty!): 

1) All 5 potions of portal destruction (there are at least 2 summoning portals in every room) 
2) 4 out of 5 potions of heal/ressurect all 
3) The dust of resting 
4) 3 out of 5 potions of spell point restore 

Apart from the above resources acquired specifically for the temple, we have also expended most of our other magical resources (wands, potions, etc.). 

Our party has the following composition: 

1) Human Cleric of the Justice Bringer 9/Fighter 4 (has one of the artifact enabling casting of some spells) - party leader 
2) Dwarf Cleric of the Traveller 13 (has one of the artifacts enabling casting of some spells) - my character 
3) Human Cleric of the Traveller 6/Rogue 7 (no artifact [we had one for him, but lost it - long story] and therefore no spells) 
4) Human Fighter 4/Wizard 8 
5) Human Wizard 12 
6) Human Barbarian 12 

7) Human Barbarian 13 - permanently dead 
8) Human Rogue 11 - permanently dead 

Of the 6 characters alive every single one of them is stat drained and at low or relatively low hit points. Wizards are low on spell points. My character is at approximately half spell points (that's because as the main cleric of the party he has been the recipient of most of the potions of spell point restore) and the other cleric that can cast is almost out of spell points. The stat drains (all of which are permanent) range from mild (my character is the least affected with only 1 point of intelligence drained) to severe (the worst of characters have multiple stats drained by large amounts - such as 10. The human pure wizard has every single stat drained - some by large amounts. The stat drains are restorable and the damage is healable, but the spell point costs (especially since lesser restoration cannot do it and the most cost-effective healing spells [1st level] cannot be cast in the temple) are considerable given the limited resources. 

If our reasearch on the dark temple is correct (and so far it has been, so there is little reason to doubt it), the temple consists of 13 linearly linked rooms and the lich resides in the final 13th room. So far, this pattern has held and the rooms were linearly linked. We are currently in room 10. Going forward (if the puzzle was solved) would have left us with only 3 rooms to go through. The party might die in the process (or suffer losses), but it would be feasible. Going back through 9 rooms, where all the monsters and dangers have replenished to their full vile power (and they have replenished - that's what the summoning portals are there for and we could only destroy 5, as we only had 5 potions - 3 of the 5 are in this room, as we had to spend a lot of time here to solve the puzzle - the other rooms we just moved though as fast as possible - only destroying 2 other portals in the room where we used the resting dust) would be certain death. Also the rooms are linked with long corridors filled with mists. The mists permanently and on a large scale drain stats of those who venture through them. In particular, just touching each mist requires 2-4 saves: One failed will save drains int or wis and forces you to make another will save which than results in the other stat being drained if it is failed. One failed fort save drains con or str and forces you to make another fort save or have the other stat drained too. Each stat drain is 1d10 (or so I think judging from the pattern of the drains) There are 9 of those corridors on the way back, while there should be only 3 on the way forwards. Plus of course, there are the nasty guardians at the entrance... Plus some of the monsters in the rooms on the way here that we barely escaped are now ready for us... Going back is not at all feasible. 

Everyone, including the DM, agreed that a way back was basically impossible. As you can see, though, it was our decision to come here, so please stop the hate against my DM.


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## DonTadow (May 3, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Then I'm even more certain now that it is a 5x5 grid, border reflection puzzle with a couple of errors in the original design. If not, and it's some "Game of life" puzzle or something equally esoteric I would be mightily inclined to lynch the DM.
> 
> I don't agree with this entirely. I think it is more than fair, hell - even a desirable thing, to challenge the player directly in the game. Pure knowledge (facts) can best be handled by Intelligence and Knowledge skills but _reasoning_ ability should be entirely in the player's hands. Otherwise the metagame fallout could be ugly - "I use my intelligence to find a way out of X predicament."
> 
> A'koss.



I think it comes down to why your players play the game.  I play a great RPG at gencon called Nascrag and the game is primarily puzzles.  There is a saying in NASCRAG, if you are in combat then you did something wrong."  I do my puzzles they way they do theirs as well as the wya the people in True Dungeons (another gencon only thing) .  I let them take a shot at the puzzle, and as time is winding down I begin to provide hints.  It is just, in my game, the hints are based on knowledge or intelligence rolls.  It just seems wierd to me that as a dm i tell my players that they can't metagame or use player knowledge for their characters, then when a puzzle comes up, I completely disregaurd their character and put the focus soley on the intelligence of the player.  I have some players who love puzzles and some whom see them as huge obstacles.  I try to cater to both by giving enough time for reasoning and then using the characters' previous knowledge to drop clues. I think its our job as dms when dealing with puzzles is first (determine how the player's in your game feel about puzzles) and attempt to blend blend the reasoning of the player without disregaruding the character created.


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## DonTadow (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Everyone, including the DM, agreed that a way back was basically impossible. As you can see, though, it was our decision to come here, so please stop the hate against my DM.




I think why everyone is ragging on the dm so much is because it seems, from your original post, that the campaign was ended and you were defeated by a puzzle.  I"m curious as to if this was a long term campaign or just a one or two night thing.  Most of the DMs I know plan their campaigns a minimum of 3 months up to a year and they last just as long or longer.  This is not about the pcs "choices" .  The PCs should always have the choice to do what.  I'm reading your post and it sounds battered wife syndrome.  "YEs my dm killed me unfarely ::sniff sniff::  but it was because we made him do it. "  This is not you guys fault.  I'll leave a help line number at the end of my message. 

It just sounds awful that if your DM planned a rich engaging long term campaign and he'd be willing to end it because the pcs couldn't figure out a puzzle.  Its anti-climatic. It's unfair to you as a player who wasted the time to build characters and backgrounds and stories.   The dm is still in control and things can be fudged so that you guys could at least face death by the LIch instead of by a puzzle. That's not to say I wouldn't kill a pc if the puzzle hid a treasure that was worth it and they failed, but a whole party... a whole campaign.    I think the DM failed at making the campaign fun in the end.  The Klingon in me says that you guys died very dishonorably.  I think my players would kill me if I say you were defeated by the dire Rubik's  Cube"  .  Sure it would solidify the evilness that they already believe I am, but it wouldn't be fare.


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> Roman, does your DM typically give you any sort of feedback at the end of adventures/sessions -- telling you what things he thought you did well, what things he thought you did poorly, things he thought you'd do that you didn't or thought you wouldn't do that you did? Did he give any hints that he would have hoped or expected that your party would've done anything differently in this adventure except for solving that final puzzle? Does he typically include many red-herrings, false clues, and other distractions and time/resource-wasters in his dungeons? If in fact this campaign-ending puzzle was actually a red herring of some sort do you think he would've let on in some way? Perhaps you weren't actually supposed to 'solve' this puzzle at all and were actually supposed to do something completely different? That would be a very devious (I daresay downright Gygaxian) trick -- confront the players with an unsolvable (except by luck) puzzle, and watch them sweat over it, waste all kinds of time and resources trying to solve it, and eventually die of frustration (literally), when in fact they were never expected to actually solve it, and should've done something else entirely (likely something very simple that in hindsight/retrospect would be completely obvious)...




No, in my experience in this campaign, puzzles are basically impossible to surpass by means other than solving the puzzle and are not red herrings. However, it is usually possible to simply go away/back and do something else - this particular dungeon is a special case though as it is linear (as our research tells us and as has held true thus far - that did not stop us thoroughly searching the room but we found nothing).


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## 3catcircus (May 4, 2005)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> This sort of 'player-centric' challenge-based orientation may not be your prefered method of play -- you may prefer that DMs not use puzzles at all, or allow Int checks to solve them, or give out the answer if no one can solve it in x amount of time -- but just because you don't like to play that way doesn't mean it's illegitimate for those of us that do. I know that as a player I _prefer_ situations where I'm expected to stand or fall on the basis of my own abilities and can't rely on the DM to fudge results in my favor if I'm not up to the challenge, because in such situations the stakes (the life of the character) are real. Without the possibility of loss, victory is meaningless, and nothing makes me lose interest in a game faster than realizing that the DM is fudging results and giving the players a free ride, usually for the sake of some predetermined linear 'story arc' about which I couldn't care less. YMMV.




Or, as I like to call it, the "Swim, F*&^er" method...

I absolutely hate the fact that the majority of the guys I play with always whine and complain when our DM throws a puzzle our way.  Or - God(s) forbid - when I DM'ed a campaign (using the I3-5 Supermodule) and actually gave them the coded parchments (along with the primer) and expected them to figure it out rather than ask for an Int check... they whined like a bunch of little girls - that and they also whined about the fact that their brainiac idea of wearing metal armor in a desert would - GASP - result in them suffering for it instead of being smart like the natives and either foregoing armor, or using armors specifically designed for desert use.

I wish that *every* session was full of puzzles, pain-in-the-*** shopkeepers who refuse to budge a single copper on their selling price, save-or-die traps, and other things that I want to be able to risk doing in a game that I'm smart enough not to do in real life.


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## Particle_Man (May 4, 2005)

*A way out*

I don't know how to solve the puzzle, but there is a way to retreat.  Have all the characters in the party switch teams and vow allegiance to the evil gods, or one of them.  At that point the clerics will get full spell points, and can cure the stat drains.  Plus, it is quite possible the monsters will no longer attack you.

Mind you, I think that this would make all of your characters (or at least the clerics) into npc's...


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## Particle_Man (May 4, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> Frankly, if you hadn't been around these boards for so long, I'd have written you off as a troll before page one of this thread.




Isn't that technically impossible?  I mean, the first post starts page one, so to write someone off as a troll before page one of this thread you would have to do so before the first post, but that would be before you got the evidence with which to write someone off as a troll.


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> I don't know how to solve the puzzle, but there is a way to retreat.  Have all the characters in the party switch teams and vow allegiance to the evil gods, or one of them.  At that point the clerics will get full spell points, and can cure the stat drains.  Plus, it is quite possible the monsters will no longer attack you.
> 
> Mind you, I think that this would make all of your characters (or at least the clerics) into npc's...




Hey, welcome back Particle Man - you missed the first session of the new replacement game on Friday - coming to the next one?


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## Particle_Man (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> No, in my experience in this campaign, puzzles are basically impossible to surpass by means other than solving the puzzle and are not red herrings. However, it is usually possible to simply go away/back and do something else - this particular dungeon is a special case though as it is linear (as our research tells us and as has held true thus far - that did not stop us thoroughly searching the room but we found nothing).




What were the walls/doors made of?  Did you have any mining picks?  Ideally, adamantine mining picks, of course, but with "Create food and water" you might have lasted long enough to dig a tunnel out or something.


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## atra2 (May 4, 2005)

Well, I see some possible brute force approaches.

1) 225 squares, no one symbol currently has more than 75 of itself I think,
so:

add sufficient numbers of each of the three symbols to add up to 75 of each,
regardless of placement.

2) The two empty spaces to the left have none of the third symbol nearby, so you
could fill them with that, except that the empty space on the right has instances of
all three.

3) Think of it as art, and extend each group of symbols towards the center of the
blank space it is adjacent to.

For the two leftmost blank spaces, cut them in half and fill them with more of the
respective symbols. For the one on the right, you end up with three triangular
projections meeting in the center of the blank space.

   Finally, if this puzzle isn't solved mathematically, think artistically so that you end up
with patterns that would look wonderful on a quilt 

   If you knew anything about how the lich was in life, and he happened to be an
artist, or an art-lover, there's probably a very visual non-logic solution to this puzzle,
and I say this as a logic-lover


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## Particle_Man (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Hey, welcome back Particle Man - you missed the first session of the new replacement game on Friday - coming to the next one?




Absolutely!  I had the miss the first one because I was entertaining guests (a previous committment) but now I will endeavour to keep my fridays free.  The new DM's style matches my playing style perfectly, despite the high body count.  And while he has evil conspiracies up the yin-yang, I don't think he ever leaves puzzles.  Thank.  God.

I am going to try a "maneuver" fighter, so instead of going for spec. in one weapon, or for extra attacks via cleave or whirlwind, I will take a lot of the int: "improved" stuff and some of the tactical feats from CW (I haven't planned beyond 12th level, but hey, I might not live beyond 1st!).


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> What were the walls/doors made of?  Did you have any mining picks?  Ideally, adamantine mining picks, of course, but with "Create food and water" you might have lasted long enough to dig a tunnel out or something.




Bash Smashalot   (the name of the surviving barbarian - his player is the new DM) tried to bash it open but to no avail at all. Besides, you were in this campaign before you quit - you know very well that puzzles have to be solved to be surpassed.


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

atra2 said:
			
		

> Finally, if this puzzle isn't solved mathematically, think artistically so that you end up
> with patterns that would look wonderful on a quilt
> 
> If you knew anything about how the lich was in life, and he happened to be an
> ...




Hmm, I still think it will turn out to be a mathematical puzzle in the end, but this is an interesting way to think about it. We know the lich used to be a female elf before, so I guess she could think artistically.


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Absolutely!  I had the miss the first one because I was entertaining guests (a previous committment) but now I will endeavour to keep my fridays free.  The new DM's style matches my playing style perfectly, despite the high body count.  And while he has evil conspiracies up the yin-yang, I don't think he ever leaves puzzles.  Thank.  God.
> 
> I am going to try a "maneuver" fighter, so instead of going for spec. in one weapon, or for extra attacks via cleave or whirlwind, I will take a lot of the int: "improved" stuff and some of the tactical feats from CW (I haven't planned beyond 12th level, but hey, I might not live beyond 1st!).




Although one was close, there have been no actual deaths in the first session, so perhaps your fears are not justified.


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## Gorrstagg (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Besides, you were in this campaign before you quit - you know very well that puzzles have to be solved to be surpassed.




Hey Roman, here is something I want you to personally ask your old DM.

Since you posted the particular puzzle on Saturday. Sunday, Monday and now Tuesday have come by and it has been viewed 7,563 times. And no one has come up with the answer, other than, fill in 7 triangles, 15 circles, and 12 arrows.. anywhere in the puzzle.

Does the DM have an answer for the puzzle, if so. Does he feel that maybe it was inappropriate to actually put said puzzle in the game. Considering that hundreds of people have been going over this for many days now and to our knowledge NO ONE has solved it. Would he consider sharing the answer with you and everyone here, as it has now gone much further than just ending a campaign.

The guy doesn't have to defend his actions, you the players accepted it. That's on y'all. He may be a great DM, and obviously is standing by his guns on this one. But so far he tacitly put a puzzle out in front of us, by letting you post it. Four days is more than enough time to actually supply an answer.

And here is something for you to consider.. non-vitriol applied. Without knowing how long your typical gaming sessions run, we'll say 6 hours.. for simplistic sake.

With each session running once a week for 6 hours a session, would he of honestly let you sit there for 16 weeks (4 months) without supplying an answer? Or considering that maybe this puzzle was WAY to obscure and out of place, to have been placed in a game?

(And hey, some gamer out there must know a MIT graduate.. or someone in MIT.. who could try to solve this.. or get some math club to try to solve this equation.)


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## Barendd Nobeard (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> If our reasearch on the dark temple is correct (and so far it has been, so there is little reason to doubt it), the temple consists of 13 linearly linked rooms and the lich resides in the final 13th room. So far, this pattern has held and the rooms were linearly linked. We are currently in room 10. Going forward (if the puzzle was solved) would have left us with only 3 rooms to go through. The party might die in the process (or suffer losses), but it would be feasible. Going back through 9 rooms, where all the monsters and dangers have replenished to their full vile power (and they have replenished - that's what the summoning portals are there for and we could only destroy 5, as we only had 5 potions - 3 of the 5 are in this room, as we had to spend a lot of time here to solve the puzzle - the other rooms we just moved though as fast as possible - only destroying 2 other portals in the room where we used the resting dust) would be certain death.
> 
> Also the rooms are linked with long corridors filled with mists. The mists permanently and on a large scale drain stats of those who venture through them. In particular, just touching each mist requires 2-4 saves: One failed will save drains int or wis and forces you to make another will save which than results in the other stat being drained if it is failed. One failed fort save drains con or str and forces you to make another fort save or have the other stat drained too. Each stat drain is 1d10 (or so I think judging from the pattern of the drains) There are 9 of those corridors on the way back, while there should be only 3 on the way forwards. Plus of course, there are the nasty guardians at the entrance... Plus some of the monsters in the rooms on the way here that we barely escaped are now ready for us... Going back is not at all feasible.
> 
> Everyone, including the DM, agreed that a way back was basically impossible. As you can see, though, it was our decision to come here, so please stop the hate against my DM.





Well, it seems to me that the way back was only impossible because you had travelled so far into the linear PC-killing meatgrinder.  As soon any PC of mine saw the second "very long corridor full of mist-o'-stat-draining" my PC would have left the dungeon.  It was obviously beyond your characters' abilities at that point.  Heck, it would be beyond almost any PC's abilities.  Multiple save d10 stat draining mists between every room?  With the linear design and 9 rooms, that's 8 excurions through the mists.  Makes the *Tomb of Horrors* look like a kindergarten picnic.

So, I gotta ask.  When your PCs came to the second mist-filled hallway, why did you proceed?

Sometimes, you have to retreat and live to fight another day.


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## Gruns (May 4, 2005)

*Sigh.*

So... When are we going to get the solution to the World's Worst Campaign Ending Puzzle With No Solution?
If the entire community here isn't coming close after this long, something is definately wrong. And my OC disorder requires that I find the solution...
Later!
Gruns


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## Kage Tenjin (May 4, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> So, I gotta ask.  When your PCs came to the second mist-filled hallway, why did you proceed?
> 
> Sometimes, you have to retreat and live to fight another day.




I'm kinda curious about this myself.  I mean there's walking into a meatgrinder and then there's diving headfirst in after dousing yourself in seasoning.


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

Gorrstagg said:
			
		

> ...




I will definitely ask my former DM about this again. The next time I see him is on Friday, though, so it will have to wait till then. I will tell him that virtually half the internet will lynch me if I don't provide you guys with an answer, so I think he will budge.  



> (And hey, some gamer out there must know a MIT graduate.. or someone in MIT.. who could try to solve this.. or get some math club to try to solve this equation.)




Our group is usually pretty good at solving puzzles - I do think our DM thought we would be able to solve this one as we have the previous ones. The degrees of players in the group run as follows: 

Mathematics - not surprisingly this guy is pretty good at math puzzles but others are not bad either 
Engineering 
Pharmacology (and Business degree in progress) - surprisingly good at solving various word puzzles in our experience 
Computer Science 
Political Science degree progress 
Arts degree in progress 

Formerly also: 
History 
Philosophy 
'I don't know' 

We do have mathematicians/computer people/engineers that are good at patterns and math - hence the likely expectation that we would be able to solve this.


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## Gorrstagg (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I will definitely ask my former DM about this again. The next time I see him is on Friday, though, so it will have to wait till then. I will tell him that virtually half the internet will lynch me if I don't provide you guys with an answer, so I think he will budge.




No.. no no.. don't wait.. call him now!! Seriously.. call him right now.. don't wait till Friday.. just call him up. Tell him.. a massive portion of the gaming community at EN World are seriously trying to accomplish this.. and it's been, 87 hours 5 minutes.. with hundreds of people trying to solve it.. and nada..

Don't wait.. call him now!! *Grin*


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Our group is usually pretty good at solving puzzles - I do think our DM thought we would be able to solve this one as we have the previous ones. The degrees of players in the group run as follows:
> 
> Mathematics - not surprisingly this guy is pretty good at math puzzles but others are not bad either
> Engineering
> ...




This and the fact that everyone on this board has been unable to solve this puzzle has pretty much convinced me that the either a) there is an error in the puzzle the DM missed  or b) there is some detail from the campaign that makes this puzzle solvable, but the party did not pick up on it (obviously or they would have solved it)and as a result Roman is unable to convey to us what is needed to solve it.


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## Anabstercorian (May 4, 2005)

Gorrstagg said:
			
		

> (And hey, some gamer out there must know a MIT graduate.. or someone in MIT.. who could try to solve this.. or get some math club to try to solve this equation.)





As an MIT student, I'm flattered, but this puzzle is, simply, not what I play DnD for.  I would not have been able to solve this and I would have been VERY torqued to have the campaign end because of it.  But, eh, you guys kind of set yourselves up for it.


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## Gorrstagg (May 4, 2005)

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> As an MIT student, I'm flattered, but this puzzle is, simply, not what I play DnD for.  I would not have been able to solve this and I would have been VERY torqued to have the campaign end because of it.  But, eh, you guys kind of set yourselves up for it.




Anabstercorian,

Do you think you could possibly see about showing this puzzle to the local math club, or puzzle club on campus.. seriously.. y'all are like our last best hope!


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## James Heard (May 4, 2005)

I think after I got something sprung on me like this I'd have played it out to the bitter end, at least several more weeks of slowly starving the PCs and parcelling out the cannibal-tasty bits as we all slowly died. I'd nurse and express my hatred for "whatever forces brought us here" while glaring at the GM. Once my character had fully eaten the rest of the party and given himself over to the dark forces I'd promise vengeance...And plan my game, which would be nothing but puzzles, glorious unsolvable puzzles. When everyone, especially the former GM couldn't solve them, I'd laugh maniacally and mock them. I'd live to see my players bring their puzzles to ENWorld and laugh silently as the world threw themselves against the mastery of funny squiggles I'd shown...

So, Roman....You maybe know if someone's puzzled your GM into that sort of mindset before? It would explain things.


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Well, it seems to me that the way back was only impossible because you had travelled so far into the linear PC-killing meatgrinder.  As soon any PC of mine saw the second "very long corridor full of mist-o'-stat-draining" my PC would have left the dungeon.  It was obviously beyond your characters' abilities at that point.  Heck, it would be beyond almost any PC's abilities.  Multiple save d10 stat draining mists between every room?  With the linear design and 9 rooms, that's 8 excurions through the mists.




We are in room 10, so that actually makes it 9 rooms and 9 corridors... (not including the room we are currently in, as it no longer poses any danger). 



> So, I gotta ask.  When your PCs came to the second mist-filled hallway, why did you proceed?
> 
> Sometimes, you have to retreat and live to fight another day.




I guess it is something like the famous experiment with frogs. When you throw a frog into boiling water it will jump out (or at least try doing so). When place a frog into cool water and gradually heat it up to boiling point it will happily boil. (Not sure if the actual experiment is true, but it is famous!) 

So it was the same with our party - sure it was deadly in the temple but it was also not so overwhelmingly deadly as to make us run away like we have from some other things we have encountered. Gradually, of course, our resources were worn down that a return is out of the question. Mind you, going forwards it could still be possible (though not assured) to complete the temple ('only' 3 corridors and 3 rooms to go) if we had solved the puzzle and been able to proceed. Besides, this campaing did tend to be rather deadly beforehand, so its not as if we were treated in kids gloves before - hence the mists did not ring alarm bells to the same degree they may have for other parties.


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## Kae'Yoss (May 4, 2005)

Roman, I agree that the name calling is too far, but you must agree that he did a major faux-pas with this one. As several of us have pointed out, the think tank that is EN World hasn't come up with an answer, so this is either impossible, far too difficult to ask normal people (as supposed to savants, geniuses, and deities), or there's an error in there. 




			
				Mark said:
			
		

> Frankly, if you hadn't been around these boards for so long, I'd have written you off as a troll before page one of this thread.






			
				Mark said:
			
		

> I said neither so don't act like I did.




Come now, you must agree that this is the next best thing. You basically said you'd call him a troll if not for his postcount, so don't act now as if you never brought up the matter. And the rest of your post sounded pretty hostile, too, at least to me.


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## jerichothebard (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> There was one demon and two undead of some sort in the room when we entered and once every several rounds (I am not sure how many exactly - perhaps 5-10 rounds) each of the portals spewed forth a new monster. The one on the right wall spewed forth the big demon monster and the two on the left wall spewed forth the two undead.





Question - did each portal spew forth a monster _on the same round_?


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## tarchon (May 4, 2005)

I'd say your main tactical fault was in not clearing the escape route. I would have done whatever it took to reduce the earlier rooms to functionless rubble. If it takes everything you've got to do it, obliterate one room a day. I don't think you need potions to shut down portals too. Walls of stone can do that pretty well, or picks and shovels. Gust of wind away the the stat-drain vapors too. Worst case with the vapor is that you all have to dash down the corridor in oil-skin suits or something. I do think the puzzle was poorly conceived, but I think y'all were doomed anyway.


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## Saeviomagy (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Besides, this campaing did tend to be rather deadly beforehand, so its not as if we were treated in kids gloves before - hence the mists did not ring alarm bells to the same degree they may have for other parties.



??
The campaign is more deadly so the players are less cautious? I can't imagine any party that wouldn't have retreated once they got to the second draining mist and prepared something that made them immune to it.

Or is it one of those "nothing makes you immune to it" scenarios?


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

jerichothebard said:
			
		

> Question - did each portal spew forth a monster _on the same round_?




No, it was somewhat random - perhaps something like 1d6+4 rounds I would guess.


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> ??
> The campaign is more deadly so the players are less cautious?




What I mean to say is that if the level of deadliness is not as out of the ordinary as it would be in other campaigns, it rings fewer alarm bells. Perhaps we should have gone in better prepared - but we really thought we were about as prepared as we were going to get. 



> I can't imagine any party that wouldn't have retreated once they got to the second draining mist and prepared something that made them immune to it.
> 
> Or is it one of those "nothing makes you immune to it" scenarios?




Well, we did not just venture in  completely blindly to the second and further mists after we found out what the first one does. Although we failed to find anything that would make us immune to the mists per se, we did pump the saving throws using various means.


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## 3catcircus (May 4, 2005)

Hellefire said:
			
		

> My vote so far is the 5-sided mirror-squares, but with some intentional errors...not mistakes, some non-mirror squares that equal out to zero mathematically. Still working on that. But if someone else solves it first I won't be heart-broken.
> 
> 
> Aaron Blair
> Foren Star




Anyone try doing some linear algebra on the thing - after all - it *could* be considered a matrix of sorts...


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## T. Foster (May 4, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> So, I gotta ask.  When your PCs came to the second mist-filled hallway, why did you proceed?
> 
> Sometimes, you have to retreat and live to fight another day.




I'm afraid I have to agree with this -- by knowingly continuing past the point where retreat was possible and reducing your options to total victory or campaign-ending TPK with no middle ground you were pretty much begging for the latter and got just what you deserved. I mean, even if you _had_ solved this puzzle, who's to say whatever was waiting in the next 3 rooms wouldn't have caused the exact same result? You seem to have been proceeding on the assumption that once you 'beat' the final encounter in room 13 that you'd then be able to make it back to the surface without having to pass back through the previous 12 rooms & corridors, but what made you assume this? Did your research suggest it? Is this the pattern of previous adventures designed by this DM? Because I'd _never_ wager the life of my own high-level character (not to mention the future of the entire campaign) on such an assumption. 

The DM deserves perhaps a bit of blame for (apparently -- assuming he honestly expected/intended for you to complete this dungeon) overestimating the ability of his party (but what challenge-oriented DM hasn't been guilty of this on occasion? I know I certainly have...), but even so a big part of expert play is recognizing when you're in a no-win situation and cutting your losses, and you guys definitely failed the test in that regard. When you realized the characteristics of the dungeon and that past a certain point there would be no way to retreat you should've immediately (or at very least before you got to that point) fled and either not returned at all (going on to other, easier adventures instead and making your DM choke on all his wasted effort  ) or at least not returned until you found some more effective way of countering the stat-draining mist and the auto-restocking monster portals. 

(This isn't so much directed at you, Roman, since I'm sure you realize this already, hindsight being 20/20 and all that, but more at all of those posters in this thread who've been pointing fingers of blame at the DM -- yes this puzzle is too hard (and maybe even impossible) but since the party _never should've been in this room in the first place_ that's really beside the point...)


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## DonTadow (May 4, 2005)

I agree with your opinion T Foster.  After reading further into it, your party really should have cleared an escape route.  A PC in my game is currently upset with the party because they went half assed into a hidden tomb to gather ore in the caveryns beneath it without securing an escape route nor coming up with an ulterior solution.  

However, I still say that a dm should avoid a TPK campaign ending session if he can and this could very well be one of those situations.  I go back to my earlier comments and I question what was the purpose of your campaign?  This puzzle was the equivelent of an encounter that had a cr that was way too high for hte party.  IN my campaign once two people go down, i'm going to have to fudge as it is never fun to have a tpk for any side. 2 or 3 people a session is good enough for the party to learn their lesson but if everyone in the party dies theres no lesson to be learned and you have to start a different campaign.

Roman you never answered my earlier questions about what type of campaign was this? WAs this just a few sesson camaign or a lenghty yearly campaign?


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## Lhorgrim (May 4, 2005)

DonTadow

He said earlier in the thread that the campaign had been going for around a year.


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## LondonReign (May 4, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> Ya know? The more I look at the puzzle, the more it starts to remind me of the old Avalon Hill game Feudal.
> 
> Maybe it's a version of the tired old "You are the chess pieces" riddle, except the players are supposed to be a Prince, Duke or King. Maybe a troop of Pikemen or Sergeants...Oooh, I see where the Archers go....



 I had that game!  Damn, I wonder what ever happened to it??


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## DonTadow (May 4, 2005)

Awe man a year, and for it to end like that. 

 I know with me a lot of my anger comes from feeling that hte DM abused his power.  It's like if you're a cop and you see a cop abuse his power, you get pissed off because it undermines the sanctity of the position.  There's a hidden agreement between a pc and the players that regarduless, the game is to be fun and to be fare.  That puzzle sounds like neither.  Again, its like seeing someone in an abused relationship, because they don't realize the abuse.  So you get angry at the person abusing because you don't want to be angry at the person abused, even though they put themselves in that situation.  If this was the final battle then maybe those ends would be justified, but for a campaign to end on some high end calculus puzzle is sacraledge to everything dungeons and dragons stands for. :atriotic music:: The founding fathers of dnd did not intend for this.  

 This isn't about puzzles in dungeons and dragons or your player's retreat plan, this is about a dm abusing his power and trying to justify a TPK in a long term campaign, when the pcs only fault was exploring.  .


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## Hypersmurf (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I guess it is something like the famous experiment with frogs. When you throw a frog into boiling water it will jump out (or at least try doing so). When place a frog into cool water and gradually heat it up to boiling point it will happily boil. (Not sure if the actual experiment is true, but it is famous!)




Not according to Dr Victor Hutchison!  

-Hyp.


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## darkelfo (May 4, 2005)

Aside, from the lousy puzzle and the bogus limitation on the PCs abilities, let me also add belatedly that the whole "ecology," layout and story behind this temple is totally contrived.


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## Greylock (May 4, 2005)

LondonReign said:
			
		

> I had that game!  Damn, I wonder what ever happened to it??




Well, I bought my latest version of it at CRM Hobbies in St.Louis about ten years ago. Bought it new, so it was available as recently as then. Got my first copy of it a heck of a lot longer ago. In high school we had a long running game that combined Risk and Diplomacy, where set piece battles were determined by Feudal. Worked pretty well for me, as I sucked at Diplomacy but was unbeatable in Feudal.


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## Coredump (May 4, 2005)

Roman,

I am one of those that called 'bad DM'. And I stand by that. He had to know that entering that temple meant death, since he knew that puzzle was there.  It would be the same if the door magically shut, and 10 ancient red dragons appeared and killed everyone first round.

Tomb of Horrors had a 'doorway' that was a sphere of annihilation, but at least you could detect it a number of ways, and you could successully avoid it, and even if you didn't, it would only kill one (or two).

He may be a great DM in some ways, but a great DM that occasionally TPK's without a chance to avoid it, is still a bad DM in my book.  Now, you guys seem to like playing with him, so that is cool. I just think you like playing with a bad DM.

Granted, you guys had the chance to leave after the first few rooms; and so the players are also guilty. But there should have been lots of clues that it wasn't just 'hard', but actually impossible. And with that puzzle, that makes it impossible.  Even the 10 red dragons would have been 'easier'.


And I think there is a notable difference between 'coddling' the players so that they can never die, and placing CR 1,000 traps that they can't solve or bypass.


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## Gorrstagg (May 4, 2005)

Castellan said:
			
		

> Errrmmm... This thread started so nicely. And we're seeing strange behavior from someone "in the business," no less. You're prominently displaying your association -- and web address -- and being a horse's hindquarters.
> 
> No need to drag a moderator into things... I'll just avoid CMG's products.




I got this great idea.. let's stop going at each other for any reason.. and try to get Roman to use that really cool ancient device ... The Telephone and call his DM and tell him most of the EN world gaming community is starting to froth at the mouth and want the answer..

*hint* *hint* Roman...

pick up the phone.. and call and get the answer.. tell him to email it to you if it's too difficult to explain over the phone..


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## RSKennan (May 4, 2005)

Gorrstagg said:
			
		

> I got this great idea.. let's stop going at each other for any reason.. and try to get Roman to use that really cool ancient device ... The Telephone and call his DM and tell him most of the EN world gaming community is starting to froth at the mouth and want the answer..
> 
> *hint* *hint* Roman...
> 
> pick up the phone.. and call and get the answer.. tell him to email it to you if it's too difficult to explain over the phone..




Good call.


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## Mark (May 4, 2005)

Good plan


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## Altamont Ravenard (May 4, 2005)

This puzzle is the PUZZLE OF ZIZANY!

I remember when a friend of mine who was DMing came up with a "puzzle dungeon", that contained sheets of flame, rivers of steam, and a bunch of thing that we never EVER figured out. Our characters just exited that place and never came back. Boy was he pissed, and we still joke about it today (6 years later). The DM never gave us the answer.

As for the puzzle at hand, I hope there's a solution soon...

AR


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## DonTadow (May 4, 2005)

I am in no means being negative. But again, it hurts the game to have a dm influence players like this.  Roman really should understand that... factually,  and this is not an opinion, his DM made a bad campaign structuring move.  Considering what Roman has told us, this is typical of this DM, thus I would suggest that he is a bad DM.  

#1 The puzzle was unfair 
In many of books including the DMG, the bible of DMing, it states that the DM should be fare and fun.   Considering the evidence, that no one has solved this puzzle (and you're talking pros in the business) this puzzle is not fare.  Furthermore, he had the campaign end and did not properly warn his players that there was a puzzle such as this nor how to solve such a puzzle.  YOu stated that your group gathered history and such of the location, however, why was there no hints you gathered about this "upcoming puzzle".  It seems to me that you guys attempted to properly investigate the tomb previously (something I wish my players did more often) and yetyou are still punished for it.  

.  This is clearly unfair.  

#2 THe DM improperly planned the adventure 
He put a lhigh level dungeon in the reaching grasps of mid level players.  The DMG tells Dms to design challenging adventures and not make your adventures linear.  Which even you, the player have said he did.  The dm could have also fudged some things, however, he was too focused on himself and "his" campaign to care what happened to you, the pcs.  This is a flaw that many DMs make.  They design these wonderful scenerios and dungeons only to be outwitted by the PCs.  Your dm was too stubborn to rethink his flaw.  

#3 A DM's intent shoudl never be to kill the entire party.  This is clearly stated.  Yetyour DM allowed your party to be killed.  He had time between sessions to rethink his mistake, but again he was too stubborn.  

Thus the conclusion is that your DM made many mental judgements purposely and screwed you over wasting a year of your life on a campaign that he did not design for his players but for himself.  This can also be told by the many rules and restrictions already balanced classes are plagued with.  

I am not critizing you but I do hope you see that this DM is not an ideal DM for any typical d and d game.


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## tarchon (May 4, 2005)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Anyone try doing some linear algebra on the thing - after all - it *could* be considered a matrix of sorts...



It could possibly be a Hadamard matrix - how that would help solve it, I couldn't say. Perhaps the idea is to fill in the proper elements to make its product with its transpose equal to the identity times the order. Dang - now, why didn't I think of that to begin with?

Oh wait - it has three symbols, so never mind.


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## Hannibal King (May 4, 2005)

Hi guys, is the only way to subscribe to a thread by posting to it? Is there no 'subscribe to this thread' button in the main window?

Anyway I have used puzzles in the past and some have been really hard but they were of the type that once the answer was given you heard the chorus of hands smacking foreheads and claims of "how'd I miss that?!". I know everyone and his dog has said it but to have a campaign end cause of a puzzle is so, SO, wrong. Maybe the DM was actually bored with the campaign and saw this puzzle as an easy (read foolproof) way out?

HK


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## Coredump (May 4, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> #1 The puzzle was unfair
> 
> #2 THe DM improperly planned the adventure
> 
> #3 A DM's intent shoudl never be to kill the entire party.




This is more forceful than I was willing to be. But I do agree with what Don has said.


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## thalmin (May 4, 2005)

Hannibal King said:
			
		

> Hi guys, is the only way to subscribe to a thread by posting to it? Is there no 'subscribe to this thread' button in the main window?
> 
> snip
> 
> HK



At the top of the first post on each page (after the poll) click on "Thread Tools" then click on "Subscribe to this thread" in the drop-down.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 4, 2005)

Tried some algabraic stuff...I failed.

Now, my methodology could have been _wrong_...


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## Hannibal King (May 4, 2005)

thalmin said:
			
		

> At the top of the first post on each page (after the poll) click on "Thread Tools" then click on "Subscribe to this thread" in the drop-down.




Thanks thalmin. It was right in front of my face!
HK


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## thalmin (May 4, 2005)

Hannibal King said:
			
		

> Thanks thalmin. It was right in front of my face!
> HK



If only the puzzle solution was as easy.


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## Gorrstagg (May 4, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I am in no means being negative. But again, it hurts the game to have a dm influence players like this.  Roman really should understand that... factually,  and this is not an opinion, his DM made a bad campaign structuring move.  Considering what Roman has told us, this is typical of this DM, thus I would suggest that he is a bad DM.
> 
> #1 The puzzle was unfair
> In many of books including the DMG, the bible of DMing, it states that the DM should be fare and fun.   Considering the evidence, that no one has solved this puzzle (and you're talking pros in the business) this puzzle is not fare.  Furthermore, he had the campaign end and did not properly warn his players that there was a puzzle such as this nor how to solve such a puzzle.  YOu stated that your group gathered history and such of the location, however, why was there no hints you gathered about this "upcoming puzzle".  It seems to me that you guys attempted to properly investigate the tomb previously (something I wish my players did more often) and yetyou are still punished for it.
> ...




Heya Don,

I just want to make sure were not overlooking something from the DM's perspective. And making our opinions based off of unknown variables.

Status Quo vs Tailored.

See with the DM not responding at all in this thread, what we don't know and possibly what Roman doesn't know or isn't even aware of, is that this dungeon, was literally a Status Quo scenario.

Meaning, it would be in the campaign world irregardless of whether it was appropriate for the players/characters or not.

They discuss this in the DMG..

Let's put the whole thing into a specific context.

Imagine if the DM had designed said dungeon exactly how he did, but it was a Great Red Wyrm in the room, instead of a puzzle. It surely would of been a real TPK. But by the same token, it was there, and had been there from when the characters were 1st level.. and at any point in their adventures.

Vs, the entire encounter being specifically tailored to the characters in the party, and made very tough, but plausible if they worked well and had a bit of luck on their side.. having the dungeon only contain stuff that was within 3 EL's of the party, with monsters that were appropriate for the pc's.

So, we don't know if the DM was being a real butt nugget or not. We don't know if this place was in place for his world, and they just happened to go off on a tangent and think it was really important. We know nothing of that unfortunately.

On one hand, I've considered that maybe the DM put up the entire dungeon as it was, specifically to drive the PC's away.. significant stat draining.. every hallway.. whoa.. that would of been pretty much enough to make even a level 16 party walk the hell out of there.
Or simply just ran it as it was.. and if they had done even more research they may of found a clue to the puzzle.. even a warning to the puzzle.

These things are uknown variables.

I'm not trying to protect this DM.. I think letting an entire campaign end this was really horrible. What I think only matters to a degree in conversations. But, such actions on the part of the DM would of been.. a serious problem with the gaming groups I've run and played in over the years.

Me.. I just want an answer to the puzzle.. and I want to know how that answer was supposed to be correct. And how it was supposed to be derived solely from the puzzle itself, and the single clue presented. Then I want to know where he found said puzzle, why he honestly put it there.. so I can understand the madness behind the decision.

And I want Roman to call this DM and not wait until Friday to get the answer.. and I know it's Good to Want.. *grin* and we'll have to wait and see what the answer is.. but as it stands right now.. I find the DM's placement without any correllary to the pc's after it finished the campaign with a reasoning behind it, or the usual, "I told you guys many times to avoid the damn temple.. you insisted on going.. and tommy over there would never actually write down what I said ... so when he verbally kept relaying the information to you that he had received in private.. he kept getting it all wrong. And that is upon him.."

We just don't know what's up.

Though I tend to think Roman doth protest to much when trying to get us to stop bashing his DM, when he wrote two seperate threads on the subject including the ending puzzle in question. It sounds like fair grumbling.. but accept it Roman.. this behavior on the DM's part, that was conveyed to you, upon which you've conveyed to us.. is almost a wash.. and you've heard tons of people say they wouldn't accept that for their entertainment.

I personally am trying to be amoral and see both the sides of the puzzle, right or wrong notwithstanding. Just it being there.. and the repercussions. But then by the same token, now that I've looked at the puzzle.. I want to know how it was supposed to be solved.. especially considering how many people have been reading this and posting to it.. and how many views it's received.


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I agree with your opinion T Foster.  After reading further into it, your party really should have cleared an escape route.  A PC in my game is currently upset with the party because they went half assed into a hidden tomb to gather ore in the caveryns beneath it without securing an escape route nor coming up with an ulterior solution.
> 
> However, I still say that a dm should avoid a TPK campaign ending session if he can and this could very well be one of those situations.  I go back to my earlier comments and I question what was the purpose of your campaign?  This puzzle was the equivelent of an encounter that had a cr that was way too high for hte party.  IN my campaign once two people go down, i'm going to have to fudge as it is never fun to have a tpk for any side. 2 or 3 people a session is good enough for the party to learn their lesson but if everyone in the party dies theres no lesson to be learned and you have to start a different campaign.




An escape route is difficult to clear when stuff behind you 'refills' back to full, but most likely we could have done a better job at it than we have. However, we did know that we would be able to 'teleport' out if we reached the last room. 



> Roman you never answered my earlier questions about what type of campaign was this? WAs this just a few sesson camaign or a lenghty yearly campaign?




I did answer this. The campaign was running for a year before we reached this point.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (May 4, 2005)

Well, I've stared at it long enough. I'll keep staring to a bit more just because unsolved puzzles grab me.

But my mind has been grappling with two potentials. First, this was meant to not be solved and trap the PCs to end the campaign intentionally. Sounds like the DM was just as disappointed the players couldn't solve it though.

My second idea, leave it blank, as is. *shrug*


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## Ds Da Man (May 4, 2005)

Actually, I may have overacted a little with this also. If you guys like your DM, and are happy with the way things went, good for you! I hope you all have fun in the next campaign!


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

Gorrstagg said:
			
		

> And I want Roman to call this DM and not wait until Friday to get the answer.. and I know it's Good to Want.. *grin*




Alright, I am a student and do not have a phone, but tomorrow evening I will go out, find a phone, and call the former DM. 



> Though I tend to think Roman doth protest to much when trying to get us to stop bashing his DM, when he wrote two seperate threads on the subject including the ending puzzle in question. It sounds like fair grumbling.. but accept it Roman.. this behavior on the DM's part, that was conveyed to you, upon which you've conveyed to us.. is almost a wash.. and you've heard tons of people say they wouldn't accept that for their entertainment.




Well, the first thread was started, because I was rather dissappointed that the campaign might (at that point it was likely but not certain) end with a puzzle and I wanted to know if it ever happened to many other people too. The second thread I promised to start in the first thread - to post the actual puzzle. So yes, I certainly was dissappointed that the campaign ended that way, but we had a year of good fun with it, so he cannot be a bad DM - in fact running an enjoyable campaign for a year indicates good DMing even if the end is this ignominous.


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## Roman (May 4, 2005)

Coredump said:
			
		

> Roman,
> 
> I am one of those that called 'bad DM'. And I stand by that. He had to know that entering that temple meant death, since he knew that puzzle was there.  It would be the same if the door magically shut, and 10 ancient red dragons appeared and killed everyone first round.
> 
> ...




I do see what you mean, but I also think that the DM expected us to be able to solve the puzzle and merely miscalculated and did not realize just how difficult it would prove to be. I am certainly dissapointed that we failed to solve the puzzle, but I think it was a combination of miscalculation of our abilities at puzzle solving rather than bad DMing if you see what I mean.


----------



## Roman (May 4, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Tried some algabraic stuff...I failed.
> 
> Now, my methodology could have been _wrong_...




Yeah, we tried shifting pattens, jumping patterns, assigning values to the symbols, making the symbols into equations with unkowns (both rows and columns), etc. but failed to get very far. Who knows, maybe it is something so obvious that we are all missing it. Than again, that seems unlikely considering the number of people who have now seen the puzzle.


----------



## Gorrstagg (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Alright, I am a student and do not have a phone, but tomorrow evening I will go out, find a phone, and call the former DM.
> 
> Well, the first thread was started, because I was rather dissappointed that the campaign might (at that point it was likely but not certain) end with a puzzle and I wanted to know if it ever happened to many other people too. The second thread I promised to start in the first thread - to post the actual puzzle. So yes, I certainly was dissappointed that the campaign ended that way, but we had a year of good fun with it, so he cannot be a bad DM - in fact running an enjoyable campaign for a year indicates good DMing even if the end is this ignominous.




See, this is where I really feel for you Roman. To end a enjoyable campaign.. with such a blunt method.. makes me feel bad for you and the other players.

Now, I myself, have let campaigns that the players were really enjoying end. Because, as a DM I wasn't inspired anymore with the direction the PC's were constantly going. I gave them really enjoyable and memorable times.. and they still fondly talk of their pc's.. but I honestly got burned out with the campaign.

And it had a bit to do with me, simply getting burned out, and the players having characters, that in the end, often didn't care about good or evil. They had very little hooks to pull them with. And often I jokingly referred to them as morally bankrupt.

But they played their characters very well.. and I ran a very entertaining campaign for them. Though when I look back on it, it was a very grandiose campaign, and also realize that they weren't really inspired to do anything.

Which falls on to me as the DM to find that hook, and them to create that hook for me to follow.

But I was able to learn from the time I had taken off.. and got recharged, and got re-energized.. that in order for me as a DM to proceed.. I need hooks that will logically pull the players.. so that I don't put them in situations they wouldn't give a damn about.

But what does that have to do with your DM? Not a lot I guess.. because we don't know why he let the campaign end.

And it's not terribly fair for us to really bash him.. on that I will agree.. despite how I felt over the last few days. Because the truth is.. we don't know why he was willing to let it end. Maybe y'all didn't have the right hooks for him to go with, maybe he was literally trying to tell a dark story with the heroes losing in the end.

(Though I like stories where the hero fights and dies.. and doesn't succeed at their task.. I like to give them the fighting chance to accomplish it somehow.)

I guess it's a usual gaming variable. We don't know what the cause was, that lead to the effect of a unsolvable puzzle.

As an aside, I actually participated once with a friend in a one shot grand evening session, that involved two parties of players, who were going to be fighting it out in the end for the win.. but to get to that end, we all had to go through a riddle.. in the very beginning.

Now, the group that I was a part of, had something like 8 players.. and one dm.. the other group had a similiar number of players and one DM.. so our little group ends up walking up to the story beginning.. and get presented with a riddle.

The only way to proceed with the story at all... was to solve the riddle.. now.. your probably figuring that say after an hour of sitting there.. trying to solve this riddle.. the DM would at least let us attempt Intelligence tests.. and he did.. and I got a natural twenty.. with my +5 intelligence modifier.. that was a 25! Everyone around the table looked really happy.. then the DM.. repeated what he had said before, whenever we started to ask about clues.. He told us the riddle again.

Now.. this guy wouldn't budge.. and I was getting more and more aggravated with this.. here I was to enjoy a supposedly great session.. with lots of people playing.. and after an hour and a half.. still no one had an answer.. and yet he still wouldn't budge..

I realize that most people would of gotten up and walked away. Got in their cars and left.. but at the time I was a ride-share hostage.. and couldn't quite do that.

So I eventually actually came up with an acceptable answer, though it used modern vernacular to accomplish.. and was really stretching the riddle to the lengths..

But after that.. I pretty much determined that I will NEVER use such a tool in my DMing.. and I still think that the DM was a massive butt nugget.. But.. I still keep that information regarding who this person was private because well.. though he deserved the appropriate derision.. sometimes it's more the lesson learned that is important.

(Oh and that lesson we learned besides the don't use riddles, was that the DM we had was a jackass who when people would specifically ask about things, having picked up on his little personal clues wouldn't actually reward said players.. yet the other DM in the other room, when presented with the same situations, did.. so needless to say.. our group of players were beat, because we were supposed to load up on the stuff that they had acquired.. that we really also should of had.. that and they were given very specific advantages, over our side.. so through out the whole thing we were never really supposed to win.. which sucks)

Oh and another lesson learned besides not using riddles.. that just because someone is quite popular and important in some gaming circles.. and communities.. it isn't always deserved.. and sometimes people will take crap because they don't know better...

Grrrr... sorry for the offtangent conversation.


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## Plane Sailing (May 4, 2005)

I've deleted a few posts which were resurrecting personal sniping that occurred earlier in the thread. As Pie has already said, there is no need for that folks. 

I'm looking forward to hearing from Romans DM on this puzzle...

Cheers


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## Dark Dragon (May 4, 2005)

Hm, what about this: Each symbol represents a number that is linked to another number (with a different symbol of course), something like Phytagoras' formula: a^2 = b^2 + c^2.

I'm not really good at maths, but that just idea came to my mind (because I remember that dice puzzle _Petals around the Rose_, that also uses a mathematic formula...still, I'm not 100% sure if I solved that correctly :\  ). Unfortunately, I have no time to calculate it for the whole puzzle. Hmmmm, any Excel professionals out there?


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## arscott (May 4, 2005)

Dark Dragon said:
			
		

> Hm, what about this: Each symbol represents a number that is linked to another number (with a different symbol of course), something like Phytagoras' formula: a^2 = b^2 + c^2.
> 
> I'm not really good at maths, but that just idea came to my mind (because I remember that dice puzzle _Petals around the Rose_, that also uses a mathematic formula...still, I'm not 100% sure if I solved that correctly :\  ). Unfortunately, I have no time to calculate it for the whole puzzle. Hmmmm, any Excel professionals out there?



Er, your way off on petals.  While the means of arriving at the solution might be expressed as a math formula, the solution itself is far less algebraic.


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## Dark Dragon (May 4, 2005)

arscott said:
			
		

> Er, your way off on petals.  While the means of arriving at the solution might be expressed as a math formula, the solution itself is far less algebraic.




As usual...it is always simple if you know the solution. 
I found the rose-and-petal puzzle online somewhere in the net, so, if any computer can calculate the solution, it must use maths, ergo: the way to solve it must be a logical one...


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## Lhorgrim (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I do see what you mean, but I also think that the DM expected us to be able to solve the puzzle and merely miscalculated and did not realize just how difficult it would prove to be. I am certainly dissapointed that we failed to solve the puzzle, but I think it was a combination of miscalculation of our abilities at puzzle solving rather than bad DMing if you see what I mean.




This is where I think the game could have been saved.  If your DM realized that he miscalculated your ability to solve the puzzle then I think he is justified in tweaking the scenario to give you an out.  If the miscalculation was his, then the responsibility to "make it right" is probably also his.

It sounds like pride or obstinance may have been the actual cause of death for this campaign.  All that being said, you are the final arbiter of whether the game is fun for you, and if you aren't angry with your DM, then I'm happy for you and wish you many years of fruitful gaming.


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## Ze (May 4, 2005)

Roman, have you considered the possibility that NO ANSWER is the right answer?
This could make sense if you think that you're in one of the last rooms before the lich's. If he does not want to be bothered (which is the reason for the monsters gates, I guess), so why placing a puzzle there, if not to stop anyone who makes it until there?
IIRC, you said you have already scanned the room for secret doors. Ok, but what about going through the wall? I mean, you should know where the next corridor is, so why not digging your way through that wall?
Call it lateral thinking if you want...


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## Dark Dragon (May 4, 2005)

arscott said:
			
		

> Er, your way off on petals.  While the means of arriving at the solution might be expressed as a math formula, the solution itself is far less algebraic.




Indeed. Just solved PATR. Thanks guys! I tried to get through Roman's puzzle and instead solved an other one. Fascinating.


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## Mighty Halfling (May 4, 2005)

Could the puzzle be the two-dimensional layout of a three-dimensional object? Could it fold up into a cube or some other shape? Kind of like in the movie "Contact."


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## DonTadow (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> I do see what you mean, but I also think that the DM expected us to be able to solve the puzzle and merely miscalculated and did not realize just how difficult it would prove to be. I am certainly dissapointed that we failed to solve the puzzle, but I think it was a combination of miscalculation of our abilities at puzzle solving rather than bad DMing if you see what I mean.



I see that, but that's the point as a DM when you begin to fudge.  I guess my pet peeve is stubbornness and thats what it sounds like your DM was being.  This was his puzzle and the hell with you guys and even fi he did miscalculate and it was too hard, ... you guys were going to solve this puzzle or die.  It just leaves a bad pit in my stomach.   I'm trying to remember the last situation I've been in like this with a player and it was in a static dungeon with a former DM.  Three of us, including myself had dropped and only two remained in the battle.  I could see the DM's puzzlement he hoped we would be able to defeat this monster he had created, but did not account that the foul stinch stats that deabilitated our strength would be so devistationg (we all rolled 5< fortitude saves). The campaign ended there and the next week, our hope was that two returning pcs would be able to help, not so.   As the fourth member dropped, several of the town guards came and supported us but their heads were decapitated.  I believe at this piotn that the DM added the ability for hte monster to teleport to its repitoire with the  excuse being it was full and had no reason to be there.  

Thisis an example of a DM saving his campaign.  I just don't know too many dms who can pull campaigns out of them at a moments notice. 

In any case, its neither here nor their.  I believe once an answer to this damnning puzzle is given this thread will die in the death that IT DESERVES.  So don't wait till friday, call the DM and ask for the solution.


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## Gruns (May 4, 2005)

*No answer yet?*

This thread is getting too long to remember where I last left off. The contents don't really interest me anymore, however, I must know the solution! (If any).

I'd like to ask that if and when the solution is given, that it be given in it's own thread so I don't have to wade through 10-15+ pages of stuff to find it. *twitch*

Thanks!
Gruns


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## dogoftheunderworld (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Fill the proper symbols into the blanks:




Maybe a different grammar hint.  It should be "Fill the proper symbol [singular] into the blanks."

If you can fill in symbol*s*, why not put all three symbols into each blank....


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## jerichothebard (May 4, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> No, it was somewhat random - perhaps something like 1d6+4 rounds I would guess.




Ask the DM if the pattern in the puzzle was related to the pattern of monsters.


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## Kae'Yoss (May 4, 2005)

Gorrstagg said:
			
		

> I got this great idea.. let's stop going at each other for any reason.. and try to get Roman to use that really cool ancient device ... The Telephone and call his DM and tell him most of the EN world gaming community is starting to froth at the mouth and want the answer..
> 
> *hint* *hint* Roman...
> 
> pick up the phone.. and call and get the answer.. tell him to email it to you if it's too difficult to explain over the phone..




Yes, call him and tell him that. Be sure to mention that it's roleplayers we're talking about. As we all know, they're a bunch of insane satanists, trafficig with demons and prone to killing people for the most trivial reasons, using swords and the like.


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## Tom Cashel (May 4, 2005)

I think Roman should be banned if he can't give us the answer.

Just kidding!    (kind of)



			
				Ze said:
			
		

> Roman, have you considered the possibility that NO ANSWER is the right answer?




There's only one way to solve a Gordian knot. Hack the bastard in two.   



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> We researched the dark temple to a very reasonable degree before delving inside. This research was done through several means, including...paying a 'visit' to the three 'lesser' evil temples of each of the three dark gods (the main evil temple was their combined temple).




Three lesser temples...three symbols on the puzzle.

All three symbols combined into one big picture...within the "big" evil temple that combines aspects of the three lesser faiths into one "uber"faith.

Make the "puzzle" look like the holy symbol of the combined faiths. That's a possible solution, but none of us know what the symbols look like.


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## Dagger75 (May 4, 2005)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> I think Roman should be banned if he can't give us the answer.
> 
> Just kidding!    (kind of)
> 
> ...




 And it has been stated the campaign history has NOTHING to do with the puzzel.  The puzzel would be same if he was playing Star Wars, Boot Hill, SPycraft or Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG.


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## Tom Cashel (May 4, 2005)

We need to hear from the DM.

I don't care how he runs his game; I'm starting to hate his guts just for refusing to visit this thread.


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## PaulGreystoke (May 5, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> And it has been stated the campaign history has NOTHING to do with the puzzel.  The puzzel would be same if he was playing Star Wars, Boot Hill, SPycraft or Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG.



I don't think this is necessarily true.  If this puzzle has a solution, the number 3 seems to be significant.  There are 3 symbols.  And each of the symbols have 3 separate formations.  This would seem to be an intentional link to the 3 lesser temples & their associated gods.  If we assume that the 3 gods are supposed to be equal in this union, then perhaps the total numbers of each symbol in the puzzle are supposed to be equal.  Thus (as has been suggested earlier in this thread) each symbol should total 75 once the puzzle is properly filled in.  And to maintain the integrity of the 9 separate formations, the symbols can only be placed so as to build on the existing formations.  So the choice of placement is limited.

But even if this is all true, I can't say that this pushes us to an absolute solution to the puzzle - only to the outlines of a possible one.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (May 5, 2005)

PaulGreystoke said:
			
		

> I don't think this is necessarily true.




The DM said that this is necessarily true.

EDIT:

Continuing, however:



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> This is the same room as that with the three gates byt the gates did not have any symbols on them nor did the monsters. In any case, as I wrote in my previous post the DM has now informed me that the symbols have no significance outside of the puzzle, so this is now moot.






			
				Roman said:
			
		

> 3) The symbols have no significance outside of the puzzle and there is no significance to them being triangles or circles or arrows - you could replace them with any other three symbols and the puzzle would be unaffected.




Apparently, the symbols themselves have no particular meaning.   I think many have taken this to mean that the count of symbols has no particular meaning.  I can see how that might not necessarily follow.


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## nopantsyet (May 5, 2005)

Man, I'm itching to see the answer and the explanation for how it was to be derived!

Roman's DM may be a good DM. Good DMs still make mistakes. Great DMs realize their mistakes and provide corrections for them. If "hints for Ints" doesn't appeal to you, fine. Find another way. But if solving the puzzle is the only way, you'd better be sure the whole group is on board because they probably showed up to play D&D.

Good DMs create challenging and fun encounters. Great DMs balance the two and are sensitive to the level of enjoyment among the players during actual gameplay. Even puzzle purists could become disenchanged if they conclude the puzzle is unsolvable. It is always the DMs responsibility to provide a way for the players to have fun. 

Good DMs can start an interesting campaign. Great DMs find ways to keep it going despite plans gone awry. Just ask PirateCat about the time he ran _The Great Modron March_. Players will foul up your plans. It's a true test of a DM's mettle.

So Roman's DM is a good DM. That's great to hear. Hopefully he will learn from this and will become a great DM. I try to learn from my mistakes and can say I'm a better DM this campaign than I was last. But great is hard to pull off.


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## Altamont Ravenard (May 5, 2005)

I sense that we'll be SOOOO disappointed once we know the answer... :\

AR


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## Roman (May 5, 2005)

Ok, I called the DM. He still does not want to reveal the answer to the puzzle, because he said he might use it again at some point in the future. At one point he (I think jokingly, but I could be wrong) told me to tell you that there is no solution, but then he told me he will try to think of a clue to give me and you by friday that will not directly reveal the puzzle. I don't know about you, but I think I am ready to give up on the puzzle completely - I doubt I will see a solution given the circumstances. I will obviously still present whatever clue, if any, my Dm comes up with by friday. _*Roman takes cover and prepares for the artillery (or on this board more likely 'spell') barrage.*_


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## Tatsukun (May 5, 2005)

ALRIGHT ! That's *IT * ! 

Give us this guy's name / address, we'll send Vinni and Rocko to um, well, talk to him about it! 

Ok, I await the hint. But I am assuming the DM is sitting at home thinking "Damn, I can't belive I messed up those two squares and made the puzzle unsolvable. How am I going to cover my arse? ? ? "

           -Tatsu


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## Coredump (May 5, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> he said he might use it again at some point in the future.




So let me get this straight.  He used a puzzle, no one in the group could solve it in a week real time. It ended a year long campaign. It gets posted publicly, and tens of people fail to solve it in a week of real time.

And he is thinking of using it **again**??!!??

Tell me once more how he is a good DM? 

Have him give the answer, and the next time he wants to end a campaign, he can use 50 ancient Red dragons instead of using this puzzle. Just as effective.

I assumed there was an answer, and he was just being daft.  Now I am leaning towards the camp that there *is* no answer, and he is too stubborn to admit it. (either way is *not* the sign of a good DM....)


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## Testament (May 5, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Ok, I called the DM. He still does not want to reveal the answer to the puzzle, because he said he might use it again at some point in the future. At one point he (I think jokingly, but I could be wrong) told me to tell you that there is no solution, but then he told me he will try to think of a clue to give me and you by friday that will not directly reveal the puzzle. I don't know about you, but I think I am ready to give up on the puzzle completely - I doubt I will see a solution given the circumstances. I will obviously still present whatever clue, if any, my Dm comes up with by friday. _*Roman takes cover and prepares for the artillery (or on this board more likely 'spell') barrage.*_




He's faking it.  He's taking the time to create a new version of it, say you posted it wrong and MAKE a solution.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 5, 2005)

I reiterate my suggestion of Foot + Nards = catharsis.


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## rushlight (May 5, 2005)

If he does use this absurdity again, I hope that you and the rest of the players are willing to beat him with your PHBs until he relents.

Roman, how would you feel if this came back in another game? Would you enjoy taking another crack at it - possibly for several game sessions? If not, then you need to sit your DM down, and talk. Tell him that if he wants to keep his "answer" to himself, that's fine. But he can't use the excuse that he'll use the puzzle again - because if that puzzle ever appears in a game again the game is over, period. There will be no contemplating, no discussing, no solving. Just a gathering of books, and an exiting of rooms.

Otherwise, be prepared to face this abomination any time the DM wants to stop you.

And finally, your DM may not be a bad person, but his DMing skills are in fact poor. While that is the case of every single DM at some point, the important thing is for him to learn and grow from his experiences. Any DM who plans to use a campaign-ending puzzle again clearly hasn't learned anything. Perhaps you should help him see how much agravation this puzzle has caused - it collapsed a year's worth of gaming - and why he should *NEVER* use it again. To do so indicates a poor DM who will always remain so. Your goal here should be to help him learn, so that he improves himself, and thus your games.


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## Gorrstagg (May 5, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Ok, I called the DM. He still does not want to reveal the answer to the puzzle, because he said he might use it again at some point in the future. At one point he (I think jokingly, but I could be wrong) told me to tell you that there is no solution, but then he told me he will try to think of a clue to give me and you by friday that will not directly reveal the puzzle. I don't know about you, but I think I am ready to give up on the puzzle completely - I doubt I will see a solution given the circumstances. I will obviously still present whatever clue, if any, my Dm comes up with by friday. _*Roman takes cover and prepares for the artillery (or on this board more likely 'spell') barrage.*_




Wow.. I'm really at a loss of sufficiently diplomatic words. Really. Tell him.. to come to these boards, that the puzzle and this thread has generated over TEN THOUSAND VIEWS. It has been over 5 days since You posted it. And no one has come up with an answer. (And don't tell him until Friday.. so that way you can use the it's been a week thing.)

Roman thank you for trying to talk to your DM. Though you failed to roll high enough on your diplomacy skill check, it's not your fault.

This truly is starting to sound like the guy honestly didn't have a solution. So it was presented with the express purpose of ending the game. And honestly.. if I had been treated this way by this person in real life, and he used that BS excuse "I might use it again". People and I mean quite a few.. would have to hold me back from hurting him. Further, I would exclude this individual from any social ocassions including gaming. He wants to be a rude jerk ... well he can do it alone.

And now he's being a rude jerk. If he doesn't have an actual answer and he was hoping you or we would solve it for him. It didn't work. Just admit it.. be a man and say I made this up off the top of my head.. they only had to fill in the total symbols so they evened out to 75 each with placement being irrelevant.

Argh.. Roman.. I'm not mad at you. You didn't do this.. well if were going off of reality, by presenting it to us.. technically you did, but in this case you were simply relaying what had ended what appeared to be a fun year long experience.

For me.. this is rather aggravating.. and is on par with some very serious disrespect to the EN World gaming community. I guess it was very wise that his name was never mentioned, or who he was.. or what his possible Enworld name was.. cause if he wouldn't give an answer to something like this after this long.. then I would never publicly acknowledge this individual until he provided an answer.. even if the answer was simply..

I don't have one.

Which it sounds like might of been the case, but I'm very amazed that he thinks it's even remotely appropriate to tease that he might use it again.

This is the type of human being who I feel no compassion for when I hear something bad happens to them.

Okay.. I'm done ranting on this part of this.. I had to get this off of my chest.. and I gladly await the BS clue that will not lead to the answer of this puzzle. So your friend can feel superior to the many people who were faced with this. Mind you.. if he was such an awesome puzzle designer, and possible mathemetician.. he would present this to some super math club.. like something at MIT.. cause obviously he's an IDIOT savante.

*Grrr*

After this.. I'm reminded of a good song by "My Chemical Romance" "I'm not Okay."


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## LeifVignirsson (May 5, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> He said he might use it again at some point in the future.




*whistles*

Wow, I never thought I would hear the collective cry of a million brains as they wish to go stabity on one individual.  I passed this onto MY DM because if I have to suffer, he has to suffer too... He is quite disappointed and had other... ummm... colorful language that went along with it.  I was quite surprised...

Roman, I appreciate your loyalty.  It is tough to get even a good DM these days.  But, seriously, I would give him my character sheet and the finger and walk out the door if I were in your boots.  You don't need the mental anguish and abuse, this is supposed to be a fun game, not a wrestling match with stupidity and arrogance.

I am now going to bang my head a few times on the desk so that way I can get this out of my head, then wait until Friday.  We will see what happens...


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## Ketjak (May 5, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Ok, I called the DM. He still does not want to reveal the answer to the puzzle, because he said he might use it again at some point in the future. At one point he (I think jokingly, but I could be wrong) told me to tell you that there is no solution, but then he told me he will try to think of a clue to give me and you by friday that will not directly reveal the puzzle. I don't know about you, but I think I am ready to give up on the puzzle completely - I doubt I will see a solution given the circumstances. I will obviously still present whatever clue, if any, my Dm comes up with by friday. _*Roman takes cover and prepares for the artillery (or on this board more likely 'spell') barrage.*_




The DM does not have the solution.

- Ket


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## Gruns (May 5, 2005)

*Umm...*

Did he really say he "might use it again at some point in the future."...?!?
Umm... Speechless...
...

...

...

Still speechless...

Later!
Gruns


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## Ze (May 5, 2005)

Gruns said:
			
		

> Did he really say he "might use it again at some point in the future."...?!?




Yeah, that is, when he finds a solution!
The guy sounds fake to me too. He surely is a good DM, Roman cannot be that wrong, but we all make mistakes. He made one and does not know how to get out of it.
IMO, of course.  :\


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## the Jester (May 5, 2005)

Roman said:
			
		

> Ok, I called the DM. He still does not want to reveal the answer to the puzzle, because he said he might use it again at some point in the future.





Well, I would posit that this dungeon is a 'status quo' location that is _hard_ to beat.  It ain't meant to be easy- the pcs knew this- and it's still going to be there when the group of 5e adventurers (entirely new players, btw) goes back in 13 years, assuming the dm in question is still using the same world.  

Again, bummer you guys lost; but I can see where your dm is coming from.  Prolly do the same in his position, frankly, unless I found a mistake in my puzzle.  It's like if the dungeon has a CR 30 monster in one room, and everyone knows that there's serious badness in there (no one has ever returned, deadliest dungeon in the land, etc); if a 4th-level party enters _knowing that this is the toughest of dungeons_ nobody should be surprised if they don't come back out.  _Especially_ the dm- and the players.  And you don't give away all the secrets just cuz there was a tpk.


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## TheAuldGrump (May 5, 2005)

So he replaces the puzzle with a riddle... "How is a raven like a writing desk?"

The Auld Grump, if he does try using it again then kill him. Find somebody with a hog farm, drop the body in the trough, and leave.


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## Gorrstagg (May 5, 2005)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> So he replaces the puzzle with a riddle... "How is a raven like a writing desk?"
> 
> The Auld Grump, if he does try using it again then kill him. Find somebody with a hog farm, drop the body in the trough, and leave.




This riddle is very famous, although it is the rarefied kind of fame that entails most people never having heard of it. It comes from Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland. Alice is at the tea party with the March Hare, the Mad Hatter, and the Dormouse, when apropos of pretty much nothing the Hatter pops the question above. Several pages of tomfoolery ensue, and then:

    "Have you guessed the riddle yet?" the Hatter said, turning to Alice again.

    "No, I give it up," Alice replied. "What's the answer?"

    "I haven't the slightest idea," said the Hatter.

    "Nor I," said the March Hare.

    Alice sighed wearily. "I think you might do something better with the time," she said, "than wasting it in asking riddles that have no answers."


And thus we've got this ... okay for a second I almost thought I was on a private forum with some personal friends.. so let me respond about the DM's puzzle.

He's put forth a puzzle which ended a campaign. He believes he should refuse providing the answer to the players.. and thus to us.

Which is more along the lines of simply.. 

He hasn't the slightest idea.. and just doesn't have the testicular fortitude to say that.

We'll see if some special clue presents us on this Friday or not. But seeing as holding my breath until I turn blue won't do me any good.. I'll just be casually interested at this point.

But if he and I meet in person.. boy do I have some very sailor like responses for this guy.


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## James Heard (May 5, 2005)

I think the answer to the question in reply to "I might use it again" is to simply say "Not on me you won't" and leave. Why would you want to game with this guy again? So he might spring the puzzle of campaign death on everyone again? Or some other puzzle of campaign death? Start your own game, it's not _that_ hard to GM. Be the anti-puzzle, except for this guy's character. For him you can have Solve Or Die Puzzles, Math and Leeches for door opening, Timed Anagram Algebra Puzzles to get served beer in the taverns...


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## rushlight (May 5, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Again, bummer you guys lost; but I can see where your dm is coming from. Prolly do the same in his position, frankly, unless I found a mistake in my puzzle. It's like if the dungeon has a CR 30 monster in one room, and everyone knows that there's serious badness in there (no one has ever returned, deadliest dungeon in the land, etc); if a 4th-level party enters _knowing that this is the toughest of dungeons_ nobody should be surprised if they don't come back out. _Especially_ the dm- and the players. And you don't give away all the secrets just cuz there was a tpk.




The problem is, an unsolvable puzzle does not equate with a CR X challenge above the party's level.  Therefore, your comparison is moot.  

Were a party of level 4 to enter a dungeon - knowing the danger - and encounter a CR 30 challenge, one can assume that they will eventually go back.  _When they are level 30._  Do you really think that the DM will save this unsolvable puzzle for a situation when his players can calculate pi to seven thousand digits in their heads?  He's really waiting for his players to become smarter than everyone else on the planet?  Don't be absurd.

This puzzle is unsolvable - at least to everyone here (including his players).  To reintroduce it means bringing back an unbeatable challenge.  That's like keeping the dungeon the same, but when your former-4th-level players are now 30th level and enter - you've replaced the CR 30 monster with a CR 300.  

He's trying to "win" in an unwinnable game.  This puzzle has no place in a future game, unless the DM wants to thwart the players and do a victory dance.  And if that's his intent, then he's an ass.


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## Malic (May 5, 2005)

Hiya Roman,
Just wondering, has your DM shown a pattern of being unwilling to admit mistakes generally? Or is being the puzzle guru especially important to him?
It does sound rather like he doesn't have a solution, or made a mistake in the presentation, and doesn't want to admit it...

Also, what Rushlight said. 100%.


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## Ds Da Man (May 5, 2005)

I don't know, thinking about it now, and being to lazy to search through the thread and find the answer, but if the PCs weren't lead to the dungeon, and kinda headed off on their own, I probably would do the same! It makes for great future stories about heroes going but they don't return. Had I not really planned on the PCs going there but they did, after researching and knowing what a horrible PC deathtrap it is, and me wanting to have that one special place in my homebrew world that could offer immortality, but at a very stiff price, I might do the same. Who says everything in my world has to be PC beatable. I would have given some stiff warnings as to the lethality of the dungeon/temple, and let the PCs pay for their choice. What could be better then PCs choosing to sacrifice themselves in the name of greed or power. I would've let them have fun, then gently obliterated them. Once again, I say I would have made sure the pure hell that they are walking into, after that, their choice, and maybe, just maybe, someday another set of PCs will make it through, OR DIE HORRIBLY IN THE EVIL, DARK TEMPLE OF PC SODOMY!!!


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## monboesen (May 5, 2005)

As a dm i must say there are a lot of pampered players here. 

No I would likely not hinge a campaign on the players ability to solve a puzzle but I would be gleefully willing to make it very important. Perhaps even vital to have a decent shot at completing an adventure.

And yes there are things/creatures/locations in my game world that would just flat kill the players if they went there and No theres isn't a way of gauging if its too dangerous except by heresay or trial and error.

Of course the game must be fun but that goes both ways and for me as a dm it means the game has to be somewhat believable too. There are actions and consequences and they are not tailored towards the players but as to how I think the world will react.

And a dm has no obligation at all to disclose his ideas, puzzles or plots even though the game is over. He might want to use them again in another setting/situation. Or he might just like to the mystery going on and in general freaking out his players.

Maybe this dm thinks that the puzzle was to tought this time but have come up with a great idea of how to provide a clue that could make it easier the next he uses it.

So cut down on that critisism, you don't (amd can't) know the full story. Who is to say that the players did not miss some obvious clue (in the room or at an earlier time) and the dm (rightfully) decided to let the chips fall as they may.

My hat is off to him for sticking with his decision and not playing deux e machina.


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## Romnipotent (May 5, 2005)

Roman, whats his email address? I want the solution! I wont use it and I wont share it. 
Heck! maybe I will use it! Tell him another DM wants to test this puzzle on some people he knows, but needs the solution in order to verify it too.

Tell him to email me even! mtmagi@yahoo.co.uk

Romers


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## Tatsukun (May 5, 2005)

Yeah, a puzzle with no other way around it, and no answer is *NOT * like a CR 30, CR 300, or even CR 3,000 room. It's much worse. 

Can you immagine a published dungeon where the last room simply says, "If the PC's make it this far, they just, um, ah, all die." That's what's happened, the DM has announced that the PC's are all dead. But even *WORSE*, he made the players bang away on this "puzzle" for a while session, then expected them to keep at it in the next one! 

Wow, that sucks

    -Tatsu


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## Numion (May 5, 2005)

monboesen said:
			
		

> So cut down on that critisism, you don't (amd can't) know the full story. Who is to say that the players did not miss some obvious clue (in the room or at an earlier time) and the dm (rightfully) decided to let the chips fall as they may.
> 
> My hat is off to him for sticking with his decision and not playing deux e machina.




But the fact we do know is that they spent a session trying to solve the puzzle, in vain. Its like going into a session of D&D and ending up doing something else. I value my time enough to get upset if I'm tricked into doing something I'm not enjoying. 

YMMV, of course. "Sticking" with the decision is really important in group activities, even if it results in not having fun


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## wocky (May 5, 2005)

I also support the theory that the puzzle has no answer, and that the DM is just bluffing some time in the hopes that either a solution will magically come up, or that we'll all forget about it.

Roman should drag him over to a PC so he can read this full thread... it'll probably change his mind about the whole issue.


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## Quasqueton (May 5, 2005)

Changed my mind about commenting, but I will leave this note:

I'm not willing to string up a DM over something like this based on the limited information of one Player. I've seen parties TPK charging into a fight they couldn't win only because they thought they were supposed to fight. I've seen Players become stymied and pissed off because they can't think of a metagame answer to something, when if they would just think and act in character, they'd understand what to do.

This DM may just be completely frustrated, himself.

I'm not a person who immediately blames a DM for every bad thing that happens in a campaign.


Quasqueton


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## monboesen (May 5, 2005)

> YMMV, of course. "Sticking" with the decision is really important in group activities, even if it results in not having fun




But that is part of my point. The dm is suposed to have fun too. As said I would not as a dm balance an entire campaign on a puzzle. 

But you can be sure I would not keep giving out hints and clues untill a puzzle is solved if I put one in the game. And there won't suddenly and mysteriously pop up some kind of solution to the problem or a previously non-existing way to bypass it. Because that would make the game very unfun for me.

Obviously I would give out something to the players with intelligent characters, if they still can't solve it. Well tough luck. Just as it is tough luck when a Hill Giant crits you for 63 points of damage and you die.

Thats how I dm and my players prefer it that way. They know that you do your best, but sometimes you still fail. It's not a Hollywood movie with a guaranteed happy ending.

IMO the posters who stated that they party should have turned back after the first or second room had it right. Without a way to disable the fog and the portals they should have retreated and found a way to do that before proceeding. They brought the situation on their own heads. With a way out we wouldn't have had any discussion at all.


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## Numion (May 5, 2005)

monboesen said:
			
		

> But that is part of my point. The dm is suposed to have fun too. As said I would not as a dm balance an entire campaign on a puzzle.
> 
> But you can be sure I would not keep giving out hints and clues untill a puzzle is solved if I put one in the game. And there won't suddenly and mysteriously pop up some kind of solution to the problem or a previously non-existing way to bypass it.




So, if the DM notices he's made a rotten decision and the whole campaign is going to waste, and entire night of D&D is going to waste, he should just "stick with it" and expect his players to do the same? Maybe 15 years a go when we could game every night if we wanted to and generally did nothing anyways .. but now? Sadly D&D time is on short supply with my group living busy lives, so I dont think all DM mistakes should be uncorrectable. 



> Obviously I would give out something to the players with intelligent characters, if they still can't solve it. Well tough luck. Just as it is tough luck when a Hill Giant crits you for 63 points of damage and you die.
> 
> Thats how I dm and my players prefer it that way. They know that you do your best, but sometimes you still fail. It's not a Hollywood movie with a guaranteed happy ending.




I wouldn't expect mercy, or give it, myself. Scores of characters have met their demise during my reign as a D&D 3e dungeon master. Zero adventure sessions were spent doing nothing but staring at a puzzle printed out on excel sheet. 

You see the difference? 

Dying from a nasty crit is D&D. Poring over an excel sheet puzzle for an _entire night_ is not. It might be fun in someone's books (judging by this threads popularity), but not in mine. 



> IMO the posters who stated that they party should have turned back after the first or second room had it right. Without a way to disable the fog and the portals they should have retreated and found a way to do that before proceeding. They brought the situation on their own heads. With a way out we wouldn't have had any discussion at all.




Well, every situation the PCs end in is brought on their own heads if you think about it. Stay home, farm the fields, never go adventuring. Thats the safe solution.


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## rushlight (May 5, 2005)

Several people have commented that they feel it's important for the world to have some "realism". I totally agree - and it's something I hold dear to my own homebrew. 

The problem I have is not that the puzzle stumped the players. That's on the borders of acceptable.[1] The fact is that the campaign is OVER. Never more shall a PC venture into the *Dungeon of Unsolvable Puzzles of the Vulcan Lich King*. At this point, all cries for realism and verisimilitude are irrelevant. It no longer matters if the players know the answer - they aren't going back to that dungeon.

The problem is that the DM intends to use a puzzle _he knows his players cannot solve_ AGAIN. That's just bad form, and mean. Worse, even if the players were playing a different game and that puzzle popped up, that WOULD break the "realism" - as the players *know* that the DM just wants to prevent their actions. He might as well say, "You can't go into the next room, because I said so." If the players try, his response is equal to: "We'll you all die. Game over."

Sure there should be places in the world where PCs aren't meant to go. I agree that PCs shouldn't be prevented from making mistakes - even ones that result in TPKs. But that's not the problem here. The problem is it seems the DM just wants to keep his power to stymie players. That's not cool.

[1] - I disagree with bringing in totally out-of-game circumstances into the game.  It's the _characters_ who are in the room - not the players.  While the characters are embodied by the players, the characters have skills and abilities beyond what the players possess.  For a player, the puzzle may be hard.  For someone with an INT that rivals a god, then it's not so hard.  I'd have allowed for checks for clues.  Of course, failure of the checks still results in failure.


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## Coredump (May 5, 2005)

monboesen said:
			
		

> As said I would not as a dm balance an entire campaign on a puzzle.
> 
> But you can be sure I would not keep giving out hints and clues untill a puzzle is solved if I put one in the game. And there won't suddenly and mysteriously pop up some kind of solution to the problem or a previously non-existing way to bypass it.




But that is the point.  If there were a 'secret' way into the temple, but they had to get passed this puzzle. Fine if they can't do it. They turn around and do it the hard way. People aren't mad because it is an impossible puzzle. They are mad because it is an impossible puzzle, with no way out, and caused the end of the campaign. And now he wants to use it again? 




> Obviously I would give out something to the players with intelligent characters,



 But he didn't do that either.


> Just as it is tough luck when a Hill Giant crits you for 63 points of damage and you die.



 But it is not just 'tough luck' when that room in the 'kobold dungeon' just happens to hold two red dragons. Yes, if they had lots of warning, etc. But the DM has never come back with "I told you the 18th level party never came back" etc. nor "I gave you all those hints as you went through the other rooms" etc.
Heck, they *did* lots of research, why wouldn't they discover something like this out? He placed an unbeatable object in their path, with no way around, no way back, and no warning that it existed.
No, you would not do that.




> IMO the posters who stated that they party should have turned back after the first or second room had it right. Without a way to disable the fog and the portals they should have retreated and found a way to do that before proceeding. They brought the situation on their own heads. With a way out we wouldn't have had any discussion at all.



I disagree. Hard monsters and poisenous gas makes them responsible for dieing to hard monsters and poisenous gas. And I agree that they should have gone back at higher level. 
So if Roman had come and said "We all died in room 13 from all the monsters and gas" we would have said "dumb dungeoun, but you deserved it" But the puzzle was still poorly designed and placed.


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## Blood Jester (May 5, 2005)

Folks, stop waiting for an answer or a clue.

If he refuses to answer the puzzle because he 'might want to use it again' and that would give it away, *why* would he actually give a useable clue?

Whether you guys are given the answer, or figure it out with a good clueand post it here, both would have the same result, puzzle answer is known and puzzle is nullified for future use.

Deal with the fact that this guy is a poor DM, and possibly a dishonest...wait I'll play nice..._disingenuous_ person, and that this puzzle is either completely bogus, or at the least will never have enough information given out to be solved.

For that matter this could easily be the greastest Troll since *Bugaboo* in his heyday.

Can anyone _prove_ that Roman ran into this in a game, or that he is not the Dm in question, or that this is even a real puzzle?

Let the thread die, even if this is all on the up and up (which I strongly doubt), you will not be given satisfaction.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (May 5, 2005)

This DM (I've been a DM too...) wants to reuse this puzzle that could not be solved by thousands of intelligent gamers? If he does reuse it it will be because he wants to end another campaign.

But I reiterate my two prior ideas. There is no solution, the DM just wanted to stop the campaign (for whatever reason he had and didn't want to divulge for fear of embarrassment), or the solution is to leave it as is and to leave the blanks as blanks.

*shrug*

I believe we are still waiting for one of those people who voted this was an easy puzzle to show up and prove themselves.


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## billd91 (May 5, 2005)

Coredump said:
			
		

> But that is the point.  If there were a 'secret' way into the temple, but they had to get passed this puzzle. Fine if they can't do it. They turn around and do it the hard way. People aren't mad because it is an impossible puzzle. They are mad because it is an impossible puzzle, with no way out, and caused the end of the campaign. And now he wants to use it again?




That's the kicker for me. The DM has a campaign killer, used it once and stuck to his guns about killing the campaign when the players couldn't solve it, and now is holding onto it to use it again. He should be using the fact that it killed one campaign to learn something and he clearly is not.


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## neg (May 5, 2005)

Blood Jester said:
			
		

> For that matter this could easily be the greastest Troll since *Bugaboo* in his heyday.
> 
> Can anyone _prove_ that Roman ran into this in a game, or that he is not the Dm in question, or that this is even a real puzzle?
> 
> ...


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## punkorange (May 5, 2005)

blood jester is the dm!  Just kidding.

This entire thread being a troll is quite an interesting idea though.  Who knows.  I'll just continue to check this thread daily.  I'm quite interested in this puzzle, I might even use it.  heh, wait, no I'll never use this.  As mentioned before, If I want to end a campaign I'll do it gracefully with a bailor.


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## schporto (May 5, 2005)

OK this is a very very dumb solution, but it holds.  Count all the circles in each column.  Then total those totals.  Count all the circles in each row, then total those totals.  The two totals must match (which they always will).  Repeat for triangles and arrows.  Yes I know this just means any combination would work.
Alternitively could it be that the number of arrows, circles and triangles are all the same(75 of each)?  Again many possible answers, but at least its something.
Yes these are silly trivial answers.  But maybe we're trying to confuse ourselves trying to find ONE answer when there may be many.
-cpd


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## DonTadow (May 5, 2005)

monboesen said:
			
		

> As a dm i must say there are a lot of pampered players here.
> 
> No I would likely not hinge a campaign on the players ability to solve a puzzle but I would be gleefully willing to make it very important. Perhaps even vital to have a decent shot at completing an adventure.
> 
> ...





I'm sorry, but your argument is flawed and has been proven wrong already by the various other posts that you have been too lazy to skim through.  Then to call people who have been playing this game for years pampered is an ensult to the Enworld community.  But let me reiterate what someone said on this page.  There is a difference between a level 30 encounter, creature and trap and a puzzle that is "level 30".  If I were to say, start this campaign off at level 30 and sent my level 30 group into this place, would I get the answer any easier. I'm ashamed at you putting the word DM in front of your title.  I have no respect for DMs who seek the TPK.  What it seems you are saying is that you can not make a game believable without seeking or learning how to avoid a TPK .   I just don't see where a TPK is fun for any DM>  Not a DM whom cares about his players.  I don't design adventures , campaigns and encounteres to kill the party.  Even dealing with a static dungeon, I don't see any sense in putting calculus and trig problems in my cave to make it "cr 30".  As a matter of fact I want you to pull me a puzzlebook.  

All the crystal dungoens on my campaign are created as static dungeons and I put enough lore and wards on them so that the players know that it is beyond their level.  

I think someone said it earlier, there is no such thing as a cr 30 puzzle or riddle because you're dealing with the players knowledge, not the character's at this point.  Unless the only way to solve this puzzle is with a wish or miracle.  

The only way I could see this making any sense is if there waas a hidden block in the room that only a search of ...say 40 or 50 could make.  Under that box is a wish of some sorts.  

Roman has put up with a lot of crap and I don't think any players need to go through this.  I What is frustrating us as a collective is the fact that this DM ended his campaign on this one puzzle.  That is just not good dm'n.  Its showing that you either did not appreciate your own campaign enough nor the players.  Even if i was trying to teach a DM lesson, "I'd let one or two people escape somehow".  HOw can there be any "lore of this dungeon" if no one lives to tell about it... again MOOT. 

And, if you read earlier posts, you'd know that they felt they properly investigated this temple, and there was no mention in their research of this puzzle.  

I"ve been around these boards long enough to spot some of the talent and rpg knowledge some of the posters have, and I dont believe in anyway these guys are coddling players.  They just don't believe that killing parties intentially  is in the DM contract


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## Tom Cashel (May 5, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> ...to call people who have been playing this game for years pampered is an ensult to the Enworld community.




ENsults are the only kind of insults allowed on EN World.

Just have to say...this thread and the situation which (may or may not have) started it are annoying to hear about, and it's maddening that we can't get an answer to the darn thing. I'm with you.

But...

Those of you talking about (I'm paraphrasing) rounding up those kinds of DMs to be shot, what a terrible DM they are, what a terrible person they are, what a "bad" DM they are, and (jokingly or not) suggesting that bodily harm is the only way to fix the guy's wagon...

Put down the dice and GET A GRIP. Criminy.


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## Algolei (May 5, 2005)

Well, I happen to agree, there do seem to be a lot of pampered players on these boards.  All this moaning and groaning, "Bad DM!"  Just seems to me a lot of people are used to working with a net.

Roman, I see no reason anywhere in this entire thread why your DM shouldn't keep this puzzle for use another time.  I believe there is a solution because your DM says there is.  If he gives you a clue, I for one still want to hear it.  And I'm not done with this puzzle yet!


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## Pielorinho (May 5, 2005)

*Moderator's Notes*

Calling people lazy?  Telling folks to get a grip?  Have y'all missed the previous moderator warnings?

DO NOT ENGAGE IN PERSONAL ATTACKS.

I'm going to close this thread, due to the people ignoring the ENWorld rules here.  *Roman*, if you get an update on this situation and want to open a new thread, I invite you to do so.

Daniel


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