# RPGXPlorer - anyone tried it?



## Chris Tavares (Sep 7, 2005)

So it's being banner ad'ed directly above my post as I write this. Has anyone tried this new package? How's it look? How's it work? Is it worth playing with?


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## Morrus (Sep 7, 2005)

It's not released yet, although there's a sort of limited demo thingy available.  I'm actually meeting the developer for dinner on Thursday night, strangely enough.


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## Nebular (Sep 7, 2005)

Like Morrus said, it's just a working preview that is available right now. It has limited functionality - the character generator that is coming out in the initial release isn't part of the preview - but it does give you a pretty good idea as to what you can expect. Entering new classes, spells, feats, items, and the like is incredibly easy thanks to the simple and straight-forward building block approach that the developers have taken. I've built a list of some 700 additional feats on top of what is in the preview with great ease in a relatively short period of time.

Although the development has been delayed a bit the developer's representative on the message boards has been very active. He has listened to the change/feature requests that users have made on the message boards and implemented some of them into the existing preview that is available. Others will be part of the initial release. It's great to know that the developers are actually working with the community to improve the product and provide information.

This is definitely something worth checking out. Although it currently has limited functionality in its preview state it is extremely useful and it's not hard to see that his has amazing potential when the full version and its pending updates of Psionics and GM Tools are also thrown into the mix.


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## PhinesaBoggs (Sep 7, 2005)

Even without the functioning character generator, it's worth it alone to use as a rules browser. Once you have feats, spells, or combat manuevers entered in, it's a snap to find the exact feat or spell you need at a moments notice. When the beta was first released, there were so few real issues with it that it made me think that finally someone took the time to do it right.


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## Anurien (Sep 7, 2005)

> How's it look?



Fabulous



> How's it work?



Very well   



> Is it worth playing with?



Absolutely


......you'd almost think I wrote the thing eh?


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## PhineasBoggs (Sep 7, 2005)

If you download the beta and try enting in a class, you'll find that it's very intuitive and easy to do. 

It's based off of a container like structure. For example, each class has a number of levels. Each level is a "container" that you add things to. For instance the first two are add "Choose bonus feat" and add "bonus feat". The first allows you to select from a list of feats you determine, and the second just adds a specific feat at that level. 

Feats are set up the same way. They are a container, that you add specific componants to. Features, same thing.

For evey feat, spell, item, class there is an HTML page created that you can edit and modify for use with the rules browser. How do you do a grapple again? What are specific penalties and modifiers for darkness? Click on the DM screen, click the appropriate section, and it displays in the browser. Much faster than going through the books trying to find the right page. Spells and feats in the browser work the same. 

For looks, it looks just like a normal windows program, the marketplace function, which is part of the CHARGEN, looks very nice with graphical icons for every weapon or item. 

The character sheet is dynamic. Hope that's not giving too much away.

Data entry is quick and easy. No need to purchase data set after data set only to have to re download them, then reinstall them, every couple of weeks. Just do them yourself....and have it work the way it's supposed to.

Definately worth taking a look at, especially since the browser is free! There are a lot of screenshots on the website that you can get a decent idea of how things will look and feel when the CHARGEN comes out.


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## Asm0dai (Sep 7, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> .....you'd almost think I wrote the thing eh?





*ahem*


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## PhineasBoggs (Sep 7, 2005)

Hehe...very funny Anurien.


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## Anurien (Sep 7, 2005)

Well.....maybe not _all_ of it


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## Anurien (Sep 7, 2005)

PhineasBoggs said:
			
		

> No need to purchase data set after data set only to have to re download them, then reinstall them, every couple of weeks.




Although RPGXplorer datasets (coming soon) will of course be a very cost effective way of saving yourself the effort of data input (however easy).

p.s. Phin - you really should get some sleep man!


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## PhineasBoggs (Sep 7, 2005)

Sleeping is for wimps.  (Not really, I just have screwed up hours, plus when else am I going to watch the a&e 24 24hour marathon I DVR'd? Otherwise I'd have to wait until January for day 4 to come out on video.)


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## ladyofdragons (Sep 7, 2005)

I'd like to add another thumbs up for RPGXplorer.

I helped out with the data entry for wondrous items using the free beta (aka RPGXplorer database edition), and was surprised at how easy and fast it was to enter a relatively large number of items.  The component-oriented ideas behind the program make it easy to figure out what to do.  No scripting needed!  While there were a few roadblocks to entering prestige classes, the development team listened to the issues, and has been very open to discussion on possible bugs, feature requests, and ideas for future versions on all areas of the application.


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## theprofessor (Sep 7, 2005)

I too volunteered to do some data entry and had no trouble entering many wondrous items and several prestige classes.  Like all these sorts of programs the massive complexity of the rules makes it difficult to anticipate every kind of required functionality but Anurien and his mates (minions?   ) have a great idea with the building block approach.  The "demo" available now is essentially a database of the SRD with an unlimited capacity to add your own anything.  The character generator and GM tools components (due in the first and second released versions) look very promising.

Check it out.


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## Mynex (Sep 7, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> Although RPGXplorer datasets (coming soon) will of course be a very cost effective way of saving yourself the trouble and will not need re-installing every time a new patch comes out unlike *ahem*......certain other products.
> 
> p.s. Phin - you really should get some sleep man!




Very nice, very subtle, I almost missed this... Not.  Just have a pair and say e-tools or PCGen sheesh. *rolls eyes*  

As to why updates/reinstalls are required, that's been hashed out so many times it's not funny, but if someone still doesn't know and wants to, please start another thread here or on our forums.

Ya know, I don't take pot shots at other software, never have either.  I'm actually very supportive of other software programs.  Why?  More is better.  Competition breeds improvement, and that's only good for the end user.

Anyways, to stay vageuly on track here, the demo looks nice, I'll refrain from full judgement until the final is released.


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## Anurien (Sep 7, 2005)

Mynex said:
			
		

> Very nice, very subtle, I almost missed this... Not. Just have a pair and say e-tools or PCGen sheesh. *rolls eyes*






> Ya know, I don't take pot shots at other software, never have either.




You're right of course. Very childish of me. I can but apologise. I've edited the post accordingly.

See you on the field


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## Mercule (Sep 7, 2005)

I haven't had much luck entering in the data I want to.  I just can't seem to find the right spot and the labels for the sections use language that isn't intuitive to me.  In fairness, though, I've only had about an hour, maybe two, to look at it.  Even that was back with the first pre-release version.  So, don't take what I say too seriously.

The thing is really, really nice looking, though.  Even if I'm having data entry issues, the interface leads me to believe that it'll be much easier for a player to use than anything out there now -- by a long shot.

Since the developers are here, I've got a couple of specific questions for you guys:  Is this going to support psionics/spell points?  Obviously, it'll take some data entry on my part, but I'm curious whether it'll even be supported, since IMC every caster class has spell points instead of slots.

The other things I'm using in my game that I'd like to be able to implement are action points, class defense bonus, armor as DR, and the UA weapon group proficiencies.  I've got all these figured out in PCGen, so it's definitely something I'm looking at in any new product.


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## PhineasBoggs (Sep 7, 2005)

What were you trying to enter in? When I first started playing with it, it took a little while to figure out which things were features or system componants, but most everything was there to do what you wanted to....if you knew where to look.


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## Mercule (Sep 7, 2005)

PhineasBoggs said:
			
		

> What were you trying to enter in? When I first started playing with it, it took a little while to figure out which things were features or system componants, but most everything was there to do what you wanted to....if you knew where to look.




That's what I'm assuming.  I just need to take the time to learn it.  It'd be awesome if there was a sample for "this is how to enter a new feat/weapon/class".

Specifically, I was trying to figure out the spell-point thing.  I couldn't even figure out how the spell slots were stored, let alone how to coopt them into points.  All I turned up was the HTML description of the class (and things like the hps, skills, etc.).  I also had a hard time getting Swashbuckler to get set up correctly.

Oh, another question:  Will multiple campaigns be possible?  For example, my homebrew is heavily modified, with different races, spell points, etc.  But, we also are starting an Eberron campaign, to be run in parallel, that uses 100% standard rules.  Will I be able to use RPGXplorer to handle characters for both?


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## PhineasBoggs (Sep 7, 2005)

Alternate rules sets aren't supported yet, but the guys are taking feedback and suggestions on it right now, so it's in the works.

Yeah, no help files as of yet...it's still the beta so rest assured the full version will have one.

For spells, not sure if you can convert them to spell points.

For help, not sure if you even wanted it, but you can ask in the "Help" forum or even here I guess. I'll refrain from explaining how to add the spells levels as you'll either figure it soon enough, or weren't asking. 

Swashbuckler was one of the classes I actually entered in, so I know you can do it all. The easiest way I found was to first create the features, either by scractch or copying existing features and renaming them. Then add the features level by level to the class.


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## Mercule (Sep 7, 2005)

PhineasBoggs said:
			
		

> For help, not sure if you even wanted it, but you can ask in the "Help" forum




Yeah.  I keep thinking that I should register over there.  I read some of it.  But, as I haven't had much time to try the software, some of the specific questions are hard to follow.

Hopefully, I'll have time to try the latest build soon.


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## Chris Tavares (Sep 7, 2005)

Cool... I guess I'll have to try the freeware demo.

As  a developer, I thought that it was pretty cool that it was written in .NET, not that actually makes much difference as a user.


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## azhrei_fje (Sep 8, 2005)

Chris Tavares said:
			
		

> As  a developer, I thought that it was pretty cool that it was written in .NET, not that actually makes much difference as a user.



Actually, this turns me off.  But it's more a principle thing than anything else.  While the Mono project is progressing, it will be some time before the Window.* and Forms.* modules are complete enough to actually use.  And given their track record, I expect MS to create a "dialect" of .NET that isn't part of the ECMA standard; oh, and guess which version of .NET their tools will target?

Concerning performance being better in .NET than Java:  I'll believe it when I see it.  They both have virtually identical technology:  a virtual machine that runs pseudo-compiled code, and an interface for running truly compiled code ("unmanaged" in .NET, "native" in Java).

Having said all that, when the tool has evolved a bit, I'll take a look at it.  I prefer open source tools -- I don't want to be stuck with a dead-end application because Billy Bob and his brother Darryl decided they didn't want to work on it any more.  Which is why I'm writing my own mapping software with fog-of-war support and releasing it under the GPL.  If I get hit by a truck or something, all of the users are not scr*wed (er, I mean, "left out in the cold"). 

Anyway, I liked PCGen for that reason, up through v2.7.3.  I did quite a bit of hacking on LST files and even dug through the source code a bit.  But as a DM, I found it wasn't as useful.  So it was around that time that I stopped using PCGen and started looking for something else.  (Now they have GMGen, or whatever they're calling it.  Maybe I need to take another look.)

As the forums on RPGxplorer hint at, DMGenie has some scripting problems.  But I've found that its combat management is the best I've seen so far.  Alas, it's not open source either. 

I wanted to try Kloogewerks, but they didn't respond to repeated questions sent via email (sigh).  That put me off.

Who knows?  After I finish my mapping software, maybe I'll tackle the combat tracker next?  But that'll be a big task and not one that I'm going to step into lightly.

Good gaming!


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 8, 2005)

So when is the fully functional version supposed to be out and how much is it going to cost and what type of data expansion packs are being looked at?


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## Raevynn (Sep 9, 2005)

I like the idea.. I have played around with the demo..  Might be inclined to buy... but it is very IE/Windows specific....  On my windows boxes I use firefox, and my portable is a Powerbook with OSX 10.4.x...


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## smootrk (Sep 9, 2005)

I have been playing with the program for a little while today.  Overall, I am impressed.

It looks good, navigation is intuitive for me (as an old pro at windows style file management), and I only ran into a few snags while trying to enter a few entries.  For the most part, I think the snags have simple fixes, and they will be corrected very soon because they revolved around core class abilities and/or feats that modify those abilities (namely # times per day certain abilities can be used, and subsequently modifying those frequencies).

One aspect that I did not like was having to effectively work with the data, and then separately have to work with a html editor to make a rule page that fully described the particular rule component.  Not terribly difficult to work around; I just don't like switching back and forth, and typing some info twice.  A better user interface that supports both aspects of data entry would be a plus for me.

I also think the company may gather more support and possibly even help with finding those little quirks faster if they created a few tutorials or walkthru's for entering some different types of data (Feats, Classes, Items, etc.).  With more people doing little tests with data and finding those little areas that need tweaking they could fix the majority of those issues faster, but I know folks don't like to "figure it out by themselves." 

Also, they will quickly need to add the ability to have multiple rule sets.  Some folks operate multiple campaigns using very different types of rules, like one homebrew, and another as a FR campaign.  They need the ability to be able to code their rule sets separately without having them co-mingled.

All in all, for a pre-release beta, despite my minor criticisms, I am impressed and I think that the product will have wide support once it gets out to the masses.  

BTW, I have tried several other types of products.  Those products are good as well, but as RPGXPlorer continues its refinements and development, I believe it will be the best option for me.


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## Zulithe (Sep 9, 2005)

Raevynn: it requires the .NET Framework. The developers here may have expanded advice, but to my knowledge you have two options on your Mac. Run this program through Virtual PC or try "Mono" (a .net framework alternative for non-Windows operating systems)
http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page


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## Anurien (Sep 10, 2005)

Righty hoh, my brain is now functioning again after an encounter with Morrus and a pack of angry although surprisingly refreshing CR10 Beer Demons and their leader CR20 Double Whisky (with Water Elemental familiar). Needless to say we were victorious and many of the enemy fell before us.

I have over time and similar encounters learned that the more beer demons you defeat the greater the wrath of the Demon Lord Hangover although.....this time I was suprised when his new side-kick Demon Prince 10AM Hotel Firealarm Test made an appearance. I shall be prepared next time (*inspects Mufflers of Fire Resistance 20*)

Anyhow....back to reality..... I'll try and answer a few points that have been raised.



			
				azhrei_fje said:
			
		

> Actually, this turns me off. But it's more a principle thing than anything else. While the Mono project is progressing, it will be some time before the Window.* and Forms.* modules are complete enough to actually use. And given their track record, I expect MS to create a "dialect" of .NET that isn't part of the ECMA standard; oh, and guess which version of .NET their tools will target?



Yup, on past 'strategy' from the BoR I'd come to this conclusion too. My main reason for selecting this technology for RPGXplorer was that, frankly, I come from an MS programming background and switching would have required significant time spent on learning a new set of skills (not smart when ur setting up a new company). The decision was made easier by the fact that .Net is theoretically a cross-platform techology and while I wanted to focus on the Windows version first, I also wanted to be able to produce Unix and Mac versions. The criticism eTools received for not doing this was not far from my mind either. I'm hopeful we can still achieve this although like you say Mono is lagging behind a bit. Once we have 1.1 out of the door we'll start looking at it.



			
				azhrei_fje said:
			
		

> Concerning performance being better in .NET than Java: I'll believe it when I see it. They both have virtually identical technology: a virtual machine that runs pseudo-compiled code, and an interface for running truly compiled code ("unmanaged" in .NET, "native" in Java).



I wasn't aware .Net was faster. I'd be equally skeptical of any such claim. I don't see how it could be faster. The architecture of running the intermediate language couldn't possibly be significantly different. There's only a very small amount of scope for varying the way you'd implement it IMHO.



			
				azhrei_fje said:
			
		

> Having said all that, when the tool has evolved a bit, I'll take a look at it. I prefer open source tools -- I don't want to be stuck with a dead-end application because Billy Bob and his brother Darryl decided they didn't want to work on it any more. Which is why I'm writing my own mapping software with fog-of-war support and releasing it under the GPL. If I get hit by a truck or something, all of the users are not scr*wed (er, I mean, "left out in the cold").



 - first off, we're British but I take your point. Pierce Morgan Ltd. is a small company for sure, but we are a company. We have offices in the Aberdeen Science and Tech Park, full-time staff and short of a nuclear attack, I think we'll be around for a while. As for open-source we've made a committment to make RPGXplorer freeware in the event of the company folding. That's very unlikely though.

We're also committed to responding to feature requests as you will find out if you check out our Feature Requests and Features Released forums, although at the moment we're obviously limited by the fact that our priority is to get v1.0 out asap.



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So when is the fully functional version supposed to be out and how much is it going to cost and what type of data expansion packs are being looked at?



October. It's $30. We're hoping that we'll have every kind of expansion available from PrC's to Magic Weapons and everything in between.



			
				Raevynn said:
			
		

> I like the idea.. I have played around with the demo.. Might be inclined to buy... but it is very IE/Windows specific.... On my windows boxes I use firefox, and my portable is a Powerbook with OSX 10.4.x...



The IE dependency is temporary until we can replace it with a .Net browser component like Syncfusions'. This is essential before we can do a Unix/Mac build also. No reason why you can't use Firefox as your main browser, we just use a plug-in component within the application. For schedule on this see above. More info on our forums too.



			
				smootrk said:
			
		

> One aspect that I did not like was having to effectively work with the data, and then separately have to work with a html editor to make a rule page that fully described the particular rule component. Not terribly difficult to work around; I just don't like switching back and forth, and typing some info twice. A better user interface that supports both aspects of data entry would be a plus for me.



We took a decision early on that HTML was the only effective way to present rule 'pages' to the user and I think it is the right decision. We looked briefly at using XSLT to allow a single point of data entry and to generate the HTML for you but this is just not practical for reasons I'm sure you can work our yourself. I've given a lot of thought to this problem and the only feasible solution IMHO is to improve our HTML templates over time and to perhaps integrate an HTML Editor and tools directly into the application (there is also some scope for using XSLT to set heading etc. which we need to get done). There's a forum on our site that's looking at ways of easing the HTML input process, speak to a guy called Nebular, he's created a tool called RPGXHelp and used it to put in rule pages for over 800 feats since the beta came out. There's a link in our Tools forum. 

I should reiterate at this point that we do not tolerate the sharing of non-OGL data on our site and discourage it among our users. I only mention it to prevent people reading this from asking Nebular for his data. Don't. He won't.

I







			
				smootrk said:
			
		

> also think the company may gather more support and possibly even help with finding those little quirks faster if they created a few tutorials or walkthru's for entering some different types of data (Feats, Classes, Items, etc.). With more people doing little tests with data and finding those little areas that need tweaking they could fix the majority of those issues faster, but I know folks don't like to "figure it out by themselves."



We put an apology into the beta for the lack of help/tutorials. This will not be the case in the main version. 



			
				smootrk said:
			
		

> Also, they will quickly need to add the ability to have multiple rule sets. Some folks operate multiple campaigns using very different types of rules, like one homebrew, and another as a FR campaign. They need the ability to be able to code their rule sets separately without having them co-mingled.



We have a couple of open Feature Requests on this. I think they've been scheduled for 1.1 (*checks*). Yup the main one is 1.1. We'll be putting a sourcebook/license property on each component for 1.0. No exact date for 1.1 at the moment.



			
				smootrk said:
			
		

> All in all, for a pre-release beta, despite my minor criticisms, I am impressed and I think that the product will have wide support once it gets out to the masses.
> 
> BTW, I have tried several other types of products. Those products are good as well, but as RPGXPlorer continues its refinements and development, I believe it will be the best option for me.



Thanks, I'm sure it will be


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## Morrus (Sep 10, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> Righty hoh, my brain is now functioning again after an encounter with Morrus and a pack of angry although surprisingly refreshing CR10 Beer Demons and their leader CR20 Double Whisky (with Water Elemental familiar). Needless to say we were victorious and many of the enemy fell before us.
> 
> I have over time and similar encounters learned that the more beer demons you defeat the greater the wrath of the Demon Lord Hangover although.....this time I was suprised when his new side-kick Demon Prince 10AM Hotel Firealarm Test made an appearance. I shall be prepared next time (*inspects Mufflers of Fire Resistance 20*)




It was entertaining to meet a man who considers the average vindaloo to be "not hot enough".  A madman, I tell you! 

Anyway, I got a look at the (not yet finished) release version, and it was pretty cool. And for those worried that this product won't be around for long, or end up being unsupported, I'd happily wager that you're very safe there.  These guys are very serious about their product and have some wonderful plans and ideas for its long term future.


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## azhrei_fje (Sep 11, 2005)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Anyway, I got a look at the (not yet finished) release version, and it was pretty cool. And for those worried that this product won't be around for long, or end up being unsupported, I'd happily wager that you're very safe there.  These guys are very serious about their product and have some wonderful plans and ideas for its long term future.



Don't get me wrong:  I applaud any and all attempts to enter the computer RPG/GM market, as the more tools that exist, the better the options will be. 

And Anurien's comment that the company has made contingency plans to open source the code should the company fold... (that's a heavy sigh of relief you hear!)

A similar situation occurred with an editor for the Amiga called UEdit.  When the author passed away, his wife and brother-in-law arranged to get the source code into the hands of the fan/customer base.  Excellent!

Nowadays, I'm pretty convinced that the way to make money is to open source the main product, but sell plugins that extend the feature set.  Using this technique, you get a bunch of eyeballs looking at the main code, fixing bugs and making architectural changes.  But you still get to sell a product and make money.   IBM did something like this with the Eclipse IDE (their product is Websphere Software Application Developer).  There is now an entire market around writing plugins for that particular tool!  Many are done by enthusiasts and are free, others are massive enterprise-wide tools that cost some big bucks (or yen or rubles or whatever).  This spurs the companies to produce better products, and it gives enthusiasts ideas for yet more plugins!

Of course, I work in a service industry -- I teach corporate computer classes, such as networking, security, system administration, operating system internals, device driver writing, and so on -- so I'm quite familiar with making money by selling a service instead of a product.


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## dvvega (Sep 12, 2005)

Sorry if what I'm about to ask starts another silly IP argument ... however it needs to be asked as it will affect (at least to me) my choice in purchasing ...

You mention future datasets to avoid the effort in entering data.

Are you making arrangements with WOTC ala CMP to distribute their IP? Or are you talking about datasets from non-WOTC publishers?

D


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## Anurien (Sep 12, 2005)

Nothing to do with IP arguments as our company would never knowingly infringe IP, breach copyright or legal protections. In fact, if you follow our own boards we actively discourage it as do key RPGXplorer community members.

On the subject of publishers......ah, the big question. Couple of things I can't really divulge on this for competitive reasons but what I can say is that we will be looking to ALL large publishers for agreements on producing datasets for use in RPGXplorer.

In fact we have recently made progress on this with a very well known publisher but I can't say who just now.

More details will be announced when we have agreements in place. One thing to note is that we can produce datasets very quickly once agreements have been reached. The inherent flexiblity of RPGXplorer means that the base code will handle 90%* of most 'content' without requiring code enhancements. This figure will rise by the end of the year as enhancements are made and further flexibility is added.

* - this is a ball park figure based on our own research into published content. It applies across all content and not specific publications.


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## kingpaul (Sep 12, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> The inherent flexiblity of RPGXplorer means that the base code will handle 90%* of most 'content' without requiring code enhancements. This figure will rise by the end of the year as enhancements are made and further flexibility is added.
> 
> * - this is a ball park figure based on our own research into published content. It applies across all content and not specific publications.



Can it handle Modern-style stuff? What about doing vehicle / mecha / robot / starship creation, like in Future? How about GoO's mecha creation rules?


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## Anurien (Sep 12, 2005)

Should clarify that v1.0 is firmly focused on the 'Fantasy' ruleset.

Having said this we're very keen to get Modern support out as soon as possible and are committed to doing so. It's just a question of when.

There aren't any technical barriers to doing this given the similarity between the two rulesets it's just a question of tweaking a few things here and there and adding in the extras like 'Starting Occupations', 'Action Points', 'Vehicles' etc. (none of which are particularly challenging or break our core architecture).

As for Future, same answer. Some of the more complex options such as Mecha's are just that, but present no rework only 'expansion' and data input work. 

The framework code that underpins the Character Wizard will quite easily be reused to create a Mecha wizard or Starship wizard.

Both Modern and Future are extra work of course so won't happen overnight. My personal preference from a manager's point of view is to have a separate 'Modern' dev team. In fact, that is how we will approach it. Time will tell as to how quickly we can put this in place.

I'm not familar with GoO's products so can't comment in detail. Our approach so far is to take requests for variant rules support (assuming they are variant) and deal with them on merit and as license and legality allow.


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## kingpaul (Sep 12, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> I'm not familar with GoO's products so can't comment in detail.



http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/d20/srd/


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## punkorange (Sep 12, 2005)

Just want to let you know if you need any help with anything for rpg Xplorer, including data entry, let me know.


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## Anurien (Sep 12, 2005)

Thanks for the link Paul. I guess that answers the license issue  

I'll keep it in mind when we get going on Modern et al. After a brief scan through I have to say it's ignited some interest in me.


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## Anurien (Sep 12, 2005)

> Just want to let you know if you need any help with anything for rpg Xplorer, including data entry, let me know.




Thanks. We are still looking for people to help out. Head over to our forums. Check out the following:

http://www.rpgxplorer.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=234

http://www.rpgxplorer.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=19

Just register and we can take it from there.


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## kingpaul (Sep 13, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> On the subject of publishers......ah, the big question. Couple of things I can't really divulge on this for competitive reasons but what I can say is that we will be looking to ALL large publishers for agreements on producing datasets for use in RPGXplorer.



Just to piggy-back on this slightly, have you set the approximate costs for datasets? At leaset, I'm assuming you're going to charge for them form what I've seen. If I have that wrong, please correct me.


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## Anurien (Sep 13, 2005)

Oh absolutely we'll be charging.

The pricing of datasets has yet to be decided, this will be part of the discussion with the publishers themselves.


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## kingpaul (Sep 13, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> The pricing of datasets has yet to be decided, this will be part of the discussion with the publishers themselves.



Fair enough.


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## ladyofdragons (Sep 13, 2005)

azhrei_fje said:
			
		

> Nowadays, I'm pretty convinced that the way to make money is to open source the main product, but sell plugins that extend the feature set.  Using this technique, you get a bunch of eyeballs looking at the main code, fixing bugs and making architectural changes.  But you still get to sell a product and make money.   IBM did something like this with the Eclipse IDE (their product is Websphere Software Application Developer).  There is now an entire market around writing plugins for that particular tool!  Many are done by enthusiasts and are free, others are massive enterprise-wide tools that cost some big bucks (or yen or rubles or whatever).  This spurs the companies to produce better products, and it gives enthusiasts ideas for yet more plugins!
> 
> Of course, I work in a service industry -- I teach corporate computer classes, such as networking, security, system administration, operating system internals, device driver writing, and so on -- so I'm quite familiar with making money by selling a service instead of a product.




An API allowing for integrated add-ins is already a feature request.  This I think is a great way for RPGXplorer to quickly expand into other functions by utilizing programmers out there willing to make a tool, but wanting something that integrates rather than stands alone.  Just need to figure out the legal issues regarding add-ins and build and document the API, I believe.


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## Mercule (Sep 14, 2005)

ladyofdragons said:
			
		

> An API allowing for integrated add-ins is already a feature request.  This I think is a great way for RPGXplorer to quickly expand into other functions by utilizing programmers out there willing to make a tool, but wanting something that integrates rather than stands alone.  Just need to figure out the legal issues regarding add-ins and build and document the API, I believe.




As a .NET developer, myself, I'd consider it a plus to be able to add in my own plug-ins.


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## mattcolville (Sep 14, 2005)

So I take it this is not something endorsed by WotC and therefore won't have any of their protected IP in it?


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## Anurien (Sep 15, 2005)

The initial release of RPGXplorer contains the 3.5 Fantasy SRD used under the Open Gaming License. 

The initial dataset will not contain any content beyond this but you can input a wide range of rules yourself including classes, feat, spells, races etc.  quite easily. 

While I'm on the subject (plug) I think it's fair to say that we offer a level of rules creation and editing functionality that is new to the market. Check out the beta demo on our site and see for yourself.

We hope to produce datasets for RPGXplorer from a variety of publishers inc. WoTC but only under license or agreement with the publisher in question. 

We will be contacting publishers in the near future to discuss the production of datasets and other content for RPGXplorer but at the moment we're very busy trying to get the software ready for October. We do have an outline agreement with one well known publisher already though.


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## kingpaul (Sep 19, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> We hope to produce datasets for RPGXplorer from a variety of publishers inc. WoTC but only under license or agreement with the publisher in question.



Does this mean that any datasets you sell based upon OGL books will not be, themselves, distributed under the OGL but your special license with the publisher?


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## Anurien (Sep 19, 2005)

I expect datasets of material published under the OGL License will retain roughly the same open to closed content ratio as their print equivalents. 

This would of course, be derived from the original license and copyright declarations in that publication.

We're introducing a license property onto each component so you'll be able to see precisely what's open and what's not.


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## ladyofdragons (Sep 19, 2005)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Does this mean that any datasets you sell based upon OGL books will not be, themselves, distributed under the OGL but your special license with the publisher?




Correct.  Any datasets of IP will be distributed through a license agreement and by agreement with the publisher, for a small purchase price.  This way publishers get paid for distribution of their property.

(edit - LOL, I posted at the same time as Anurien.  Listen to him, he's head Xplorer in charge.)


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## Anurien (Sep 19, 2005)

Correct also, but I think Paul's question was more related to OGL material and whether it remains OGL after it becomes a commercial dataset.


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## kingpaul (Sep 19, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> Correct also, but I think Paul's question was more related to OGL material and whether it remains OGL after it becomes a commercial dataset.



Kinda. What I was wondering if you would be making OGC datasets, similar to how PCGen does it or if you would be using a special license with the publisher, thereby bypassing the OGL entirely.


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## Anurien (Sep 20, 2005)

I'm not sure I understand the question Paul, could you elaborate plz?


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## kingpaul (Sep 20, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I understand the question Paul, could you elaborate plz?



I'll try. And this is how *I* understand how things work. I'm not a lawyer.

If you publish under special license, you completely bypass the OGL. You won't need to deal with declaration of OGC or PI, as you are dealing with the material as copyright. Doing it this way, you'd have to have the publisher's buy-in.

If you publish under the OGL, then the publisher has already granted you rights to the OGC material. If there is any PI in the material you want to use, you'd need to contact them. Just using OGC doesn't require you to contact the publisher.


Now, I know you want to contact WotC. Almost all of their books are closed (the notable exceptions I'm aware of Weapons Locker and Unearthed Arcana). So, any datasets based on their material would have to be under license. The rest of the d20-esque community (including those who publish solely under the OGL to bypass the restrictions on the d20STL), have OGC that you could use.



Did that make any sense....or was I just rambling?


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## Anurien (Sep 20, 2005)

The situation as I understand it is this (basically what you said but in my own words):

1. The only publisher with which you have the scope to disassociate yourself from either the OGL or d20 licence is WoTC since they are the original copyright holder. Obviously this would require an agreement with WoTC first. I don't see why you'd do this though since the d20 brand is a powerful one.

2. All other publishers have to operate within either the OGL or the d20 license, therefore anything (other than their own IP/copyright) in datasets produced for this material would also operate under the same license.

3. Any IP contained in a dataset would require separate agreement with the property owner e.g. in order to call an OGC dataset for Iron Heroes by it's name i.e. Iron Heroes, you'd need an agreement with Monte Cook/Malhavoc. Otherwise you'd have to call it something silly like 'Ferrous Fearless' and hope people make the connection. Not that we'd ever dream of being so cheeky with MC, but it illustrates my point.

As for all the OGC content out there, sure we'd like to see RPGXplorer datasets of it. Once we have v1.0 out of the door, I'm sure our own dataset forum will begin to get populated.

And thanks for the tip on UA, I had NO IDEA that was OGC! Fantastic. I really should pay more attention.


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## kingpaul (Sep 20, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> And thanks for the tip on UA, I had NO IDEA that was OGC! Fantastic. I really should pay more attention.



No problem. Most of it is OGC. There are some IP items in it that you can't touch, but most is completely open.


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## WingOver (Sep 20, 2005)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Kinda. What I was wondering if you would be making OGC datasets, similar to how PCGen does it or if you would be using a special license with the publisher, thereby bypassing the OGL entirely.




If an RPGXplorer's dataset file contained pure OGC, couldn't it be freely distributed as permitted by the OGL?  In other words, a customer buys one and then is legally able to share it with his buddies?  Wouldn't there have to be an additional license to restrict sharing of the datasets (assuming the RPGX guys wanted to profit from selling them)?  Could they label parts of the file as 'product identity' to legally restrict wholesale sharing of the file?

Aside from the legal barriers, will RPGX have any mechanical measures to prevent data sharing (file encryption, etc.)?

I'm asking because I'm curious how they intend to sell data without it being ripped off after the first person in a group buys it.


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## Vascant (Sep 20, 2005)

WingOver said:
			
		

> Aside from the legal barriers, will RPGX have any mechanical measures to prevent data sharing (file encryption, etc.)?




Most of that is not allowed because it would prevent the OGL material from being in a readable format and in such cases be a violation of the license.  I ran into this one already when I wanted to be able to put data in a compiled library until my attorney crushed the idea.


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## Anurien (Sep 20, 2005)

OGC content is by definition 'Open' therefore you could freely distribute any components labelled as 'Open' as long as you abide by the terms of the OGL itself. It is not possible to lock or otherwise render OGC data unredistributable without breaching the terms of the OGL.

As for 'closed' content, yes we have a mechanism to prevent unauthorised use. Yes, this involves encryption. Beyond that I can't say as it's a commerical secret.


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## kingpaul (Sep 20, 2005)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Most of that is not allowed because it would prevent the OGL material from being in a readable format and in such cases be a violation of the license.



And this is why PCGen has their datafiles in a tab delimited text file, which is released under the OGL. Our code is released under the LGPL.


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## Anurien (Sep 20, 2005)

LGPL?


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## kingpaul (Sep 20, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> LGPL?



Lesser Gnu Public License...I think. I'm not a coder, so don't know a whole lot on the java side.

_edit_: Just checked the documentation (imagine that  ). Gnu Lesser General Public License.


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## Mercule (Sep 20, 2005)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> And this is why PCGen has their datafiles in a tab delimited text file,




Any chance of that converting to XML, an option for PCGen to handle XML, or some such?

Do you know whether RPGT will use XML, other plain text, or a db backend?  (I know, not really your beastie.)


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## kingpaul (Sep 20, 2005)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Any chance of that converting to XML, an option for PCGen to handle XML, or some such?



XML is something that's put pretty far back on the burner. Right now our coders are working on trimming code.


			
				Mercule said:
			
		

> Do you know whether RPGT will use XML, other plain text, or a db backend?  (I know, not really your beastie.)



No idea. You'll have to go to CMP's site to see what they intend.


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## Anurien (Sep 20, 2005)

I think CMP are using C++ with a MySQL or some other cross-platform database (think it was MySQL, might be wrong, doesn't really matter though it was definitely a database of some sort) for RPGT.


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## Mercule (Sep 20, 2005)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> XML is something that's put pretty far back on the burner. Right now our coders are working on trimming code.
> 
> No idea. You'll have to go to CMP's site to see what they intend.




Both are what I expected you to say.  Just checking.


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## WingOver (Sep 20, 2005)

Anurien said:
			
		

> OGC content is by definition 'Open' therefore you could freely distribute any components labelled as 'Open' as long as you abide by the terms of the OGL itself. It is not possible to lock or otherwise render OGC data unredistributable without breaching the terms of the OGL.




Cool, I got that.  I was wondering about your XML files (I think that's your format).  Once the character generator is released and I have a chance to evaluate it and possibly buy it, what happens if I buy a dataset with OGC?  Can I freely distribute it to my gaming group?

Similar situation as PDFs.  What if a PDF has 100% open content?  Can you distribute that freely?  Or is some part of the PDF file not 'open' and therefore invalidates the entire file from being distributed?  I realize you can copy/paste and share OGC all day long.  

XML or PDF, they're both file formats which may contain OGC.  I realize there must be some obvious legal reason you can't freely distribute PDFs with OGC, just not sure what exactly is preventing that (and if it also applies to your datasets).


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## ladyofdragons (Sep 21, 2005)

WingOver said:
			
		

> Cool, I got that.  I was wondering about your XML files (I think that's your format).  Once the character generator is released and I have a chance to evaluate it and possibly buy it, what happens if I buy a dataset with OGC?  Can I freely distribute it to my gaming group?
> 
> Similar situation as PDFs.  What if a PDF has 100% open content?  Can you distribute that freely?  Or is some part of the PDF file not 'open' and therefore invalidates the entire file from being distributed?  I realize you can copy/paste and share OGC all day long.
> 
> XML or PDF, they're both file formats which may contain OGC.  I realize there must be some obvious legal reason you can't freely distribute PDFs with OGC, just not sure what exactly is preventing that (and if it also applies to your datasets).




Heh.  You're asking a couple of non-RPGXplorer-specific questions there.

I thought it was just fine to redistribute 100% OGC, whatever the format.  So hopefully you would be able to export the OGC portion of the dataset you purchased and distribute that to your group.  The non-OGC portion would not be exportable.  Since each item in RPGXplorer is tagged with a license designation, this should be possible.

Of course that's just my thought on how it should work, Anurien knows how it _will_ work.

As for PDFs, IANAL and I don't want to start an OT flamewar here about distribution of IP, but I thought that if a PDF was 100% OGC it was transferrable.  If the PDF contains a combination of OGC and Non-OGC, it is not.  PDF products often have a combination of OGC and non-OGC.  You'll see the publisher create "previews" made of the OGC portions of their product, and those items remain OGC in the full PDF but the rest of the document is under D20 or another license.


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## WingOver (Sep 21, 2005)

That's what I figured about PDFs (that they contain a combination of OGC and closed content).  I'm not interested in another discussion on the merits of file sharing and all that (seen enough of that lately!)  

Bottom line: I just wanted to know if I could easily share OGC with my friends, including OGC purchased specifically for RPGX.


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## Anurien (Sep 21, 2005)

The only possible stumbling block would be if the rule page was mixed content e.g. it contained artwork or other IP. I guess in this instance we'd have to prevent that from being distributed and probably have to provide an alternate version of the rule page containing just the OGC. I'm not sure on this though.

Pure OGC will be easily distributable. I doubt this kind of content will be charged for though, most likely it will emerge from the community for free.


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## silvermane (Sep 22, 2005)

> If the PDF contains a combination of OGC and Non-OGC, it is not. PDF products often have a combination of OGC and non-OGC.




Change "often" to "always". If a PDF product is given away for free, it still doesn't mean you can plagiarize it. Remember it's not only the text that can be non-OGC, but artwork layout and (the choice of) fonts as well.


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