# Seeking reviews or comparisons of: Fantasy Grounds, kLoOge.Werks and Screenmonkey



## artmc (Aug 19, 2005)

Hello,

I'm looking at using one of these 3 apps to allow long distance gaming between a group of my friends.

Mostly I am looking for differences/advantages/disadvantages.  Along with first hand usage stories.

If for instance I say decide on kLoOge.Werks, I will buy the Multi client license and the Master package as well.  


So, basically any info that you can suggest will be off use.   I have read several threads here on this, 
and still haven't made a decision as of yet.


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## msd (Aug 19, 2005)

I love Fantasy Grounds...huge fan.

Now for the disclaimer.  I haven't really tried the others so you'll have to put my comments through the proper filter.

A random list of things that I really like:


A really great version 1 of the product.  Compared to other "version 1" RPG products, this is great which instills a lot of confidence that this will be around for a while
In the same vein, the developers are very accessible on their boards...features which I have personally asked for have been implemented in patches and I am not close to alone in that regard.  The devs are first and foremost players and are looking for player feedback.
Very extensible system.  The system is all XML based so basically any changes you might want to make are pretty easily made
Great effort at making you feel like you are "around the table" - the dice rolling is awesome, the sound of the dice is right on, and the general look of the app put you right there
Just an overall very simple and easy, intuitive interface - learning the app couldn't be easier

Some negatives (just to be balanced)


It is a good version 1, but it is still a version 1 - there are sometimes unexplained application crashes.  Nothing drastic, but I don't want to suggest that it doesn't happen
No voice or sound - for me this is no big as we use Teamspeak/Ventrilo/Skype, etc. but some people are bothered by this
Editing and entry of data is not always as easy as it could be - this mainly impacts the DM and is something that is definitely being addressed in an upcoming version
Compatibility with other apps - again, the entire system is XML based and at present, for instance, the format of a character file is a basically proprietary XML structure.  The community has asked the developers to at least allow interaction with things like e-tools so that you can generate that NPC and boom...he's in FG.  Not quite there yet but supposed to be coming soon.
Lack of documentation about the workings of the system under the hood.  Don't like d20?  Want to somehow customize the character sheet or NPC sheet to add some piece of data?  You can do all this and its all a matter of modifying XML definition files but there is no real documentation as of yet and you have to rely on the community knowledge of the forums and the occasional posts by the developers pointing you in the right direction.  This too is supposedly being addressed.

Two other things.

First, and despite by sig  , in the spirit of making a truly informed choice you should also check out http://www.ghostorb.com - they also have a new product in this space and are worthy of being on your list.

Second, while I have tried to be objective in this post, I am definitely a partisan player in this one and would love to win more players to the FG side of the fence.  FG has a freely downloadable demo.  I would love for you and your players to download the demo and give you a cook's tour (i.e. you would connect for a demo session and we could go through the functionality together).  PM me here if interested.

Hope that helps!


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## 2WS-Steve (Aug 19, 2005)

I've purchased all three and am torn between Fantasy Grounds and Klooge.

Fantasy Grounds has been far more stable for me, and doesn't run in clunky Java. Also, I find myself oddly drawn to the little gimmick of actually rolling the dice -- it's actually fun to do on screen.

However, Klooge has significantly better shared map features. Very easy to zoom in or out, and I can simply scan in my own images, then scale them as I desire, for use as miniatures. Unfortunately, it's also been unplay-ably unstable for me in the past, but the very recent updates seem to work.

I suspect that FG will improve it's map stuff, whereas Klooge will not dump its Java clunkiness, and thus FG might move into a clear winner category for me.

Screen Monkey has the whole, clients connect using regular web software thing -- but it was pretty slow and the interface makes it hard to run a game.

Ghost Orb looks very interesting, but I figured I'd wait until it's out of beta to try it out.


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## msd (Aug 19, 2005)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> However, Klooge has significantly better shared map features. Very easy to zoom in or out




For what it's worth, I believe this is totally on their radar.  I know that I and a large number of other people have consistently mentioned this as one of the things that would be really nice to have in a future release...


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## azhrei_fje (Aug 21, 2005)

The Klooge demo would not allow me to test certain features (like a huge JPEG image to see how it performed) and my requests to the kloogers (ie. authors) went unanswered.

Granted that was only a single attempt (well, two really) it turned me off from a customer support point-of-view.


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## DMFTodd (Aug 21, 2005)

*Comparison*

I tried ScreenMonkey, Fantasy Grounds, and Klooge about 6 months ago, went with klooge. 

ScreeenMonkey: Can't remeber any specifics. It wasn't as pretty as Fantasy Grounds nor as capable as Klooge. 

GhostOrb: DM + every player pays about $5/month. 6 player game is $30/month, $360 for a year. No thanks. 

Comparing klooge and FantasyGrounds (this compares how they were 6 months ago, things have changed, FantasyGrounders can correct me):

The map: Klooge has a real map and knows about distances. Klooge knows that the orc is 120 feet away, can tell you the correct size for laying down a web, etc.  THis is really cool, you can actually play on a map with a large scale - something you can't really do on a battlemap. FantasyGrounds, the map is basically a dumb picture with no features. 

Map Zoom: Klooge can zoom a map. Scan in some big dungeon from Dungeon magazine and play right on that. You can zoom in and out on the map to see what is going on. No zoom in FG. You're going to have to manually create a lot of maps. 

Tokens: Klooge can use any scanned in picture as a token. FantasyGrounds has little gold balls you drop on a map (I think they may have fixed that). 

Token Size: Since klooge has distance on a map, it can scale a token to the right size. FantasyGrounds, with no map scale, can't scale a token. A dragon is the same size as a goblin. 

Dice Rolling: FG has this really pretty dice roller but it's dumber than dumb. To roll an attack, enter a modifier in the attack box, pick up the 20-sider, drop it. Claw, claw, bite? Do it again. Ooops, change that modifier for the bite. Now change the modifier to roll the damage. Running a battle with different creatures? Hope you can remember all of those modifiers because you'll be putting them in again and again (there are some hot keys that could speed this up somewhat). FG combat is going to be really, really slow. In Klooge, you can setup a monster/NPC in advance. To make an attack roll, you simply click the attack. It's very fast. 

Did I Hit?: FG doesn't have targeting. Did the attack hit? How much damage was rolled? Better pay close attention because you have to manually apply that damage. Klooge has targeting, has AC in the program, so when you make an attack roll it can tell you if you hit or missed (and it is easily overridden when need be). Damage is then assigned directly to the target and the dm can apply it with a click. 

In short, I think FG has a really pretty face but it's all pretty face no brains. Klooge has way more features, IMPORTANT features but it's not the prettiest thing around. I've been running a weekly klooge game for about 6 months now. It really works. I've dropped my face to face game and just play with klooge.


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## 2WS-Steve (Aug 22, 2005)

In defense of Fantasy Grounds, the dice there do the same thing as the dice in my cup -- and they've worked good for me for about 25 years.

Sometimes I find overly-automated features a hassle since they require too much prep time and aren't as friendly for on-the-fly scenarios. That said, there's no reason a program can't work well with both.

As it is, FG doesn't have as good a setup for programmed monsters. But in FG it's easy to pick up the dice with the mouse, make a small adjustment with the mouse wheel, then roll using the mouse -- no typing out functions required.

I'd prefer it if companies could just merge their best features -- but I guess that ain't gonna happen.


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## msd (Aug 22, 2005)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> In defense of Fantasy Grounds, the dice there do the same thing as the dice in my cup -- and they've worked good for me for about 25 years.




I tend to agree.  I get the sense from monitoring the boards over there (and the devs posts in particular) that they were almost targeting a low-tech feel with a high-tech tool.  I think the feeling they were trying to capture was really that around-the-table feeling first and foremost.  Automation is there and they have heard the call for more, but I don't think it was their first thought.

Just my thoughts.  Could easily be wrong 

-Matt


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## bloodydrake (Aug 22, 2005)

I would suggest everyone watch the Klooge tutorial Videos they do give a great overview of some excellent features.
http://www.kloogeinc.com/tutorials.html

KloogeWerks is by far the most feature rich application out there for simulating a tabletop experience via a pc.It is very powerful in what you can do and can really speed up play and automate many teadious things for you,however it does take abit of time to figure it all out.Once you do tho its fantastic.

To really benefit from all those features does take some prep time for your DM but alot of that stuff is a one time thing.
For example Once youve created a Klooge icon for a hill giant you never have to create one again you simple import it into any adventure your using and it will be setup with a graphic token and a full character sheet with abilities attacks ect all there.
As well the community has been creating many player made aids that can be used by anyone.
One such feature we've just started using is the effects feature. Using the downloaded Master effects you can with the click of a mouse applie just about any effect to an npc or player that has a built in duration condition that counts down as your rounds go by in combat.

Klooge is a java based application and its defiantely a strength and weakness.
The benifit is its truly multiplatform so you can use klooge on window,macs,linux ect.

I think the one area that Klooge needs to focus on is where fantasy grounds has it beat..that is spit and polish.You can't deny the fact that Klooge feels like an office app in its interface where as FG looks really pretty and has a much nicer looking interface.

I have an idea on how klooge and address this but i'm not sure if it will be possible.Time will tell.

Oh and yes klooge can support really large jpg maps the users machines is the limiting factor if you want to use maps that are 2500x3500 that expect to need at least 512mb of ram dedicated to the program. If you break up your maps into sections that are 1200x1200 ish you can get away with 256mb dedicated.


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## DMFTodd (Aug 23, 2005)

*Klooge Vs. FG*

Forgot one other thing: FG only runs on Windows. Klooge runs on Windows, Mac, Linux.


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## Dupre (Aug 23, 2005)

As a developer of Fantasy Grounds, my opinions are rather biased so I will focus on purely rectifying some of the falsities.

Fantasy Grounds was designed to be first and foremost an online version of tabletop pen & paper gameplay experience. Secondly, we designed it to be as flexible as possible for players to modify and extend it to their needs, including adding custom rulesets. 

Tokens: There is a basic token pack you get with the software, but you have always been able to use your own. There are hundreds and hundreds of tokens available for Fantasy Grounds.

Maps: We have indeed implemented map improvements including map zooming, which is of the same quality as other features found in Fantasy Grounds.

Automation: Fantasy Grounds does not have success/failure resolution as it is explicitly forbidden in the WotC d20 Open Gaming License. We are, however, adding scripting support to Fantasy Grounds, which allows players to make their rulesets fully automated if they so wish.

Our player community is of highest importance to us and we are dedicated to adding features requested by our players.


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## Bitr_Haag (Aug 25, 2005)

In the spirit of fairness and complete disclosure, I have purchased both FG and Klooge but I use FG exclusively at this point.

Klooge Review
Positives
Klooge has some really, really cool features (assuming they work). The distance calculator, the damage, AC, etc... calculators all look amazing and would help speed up my combat significantly. I would agree with the comment above that Klooge has more "brains" behind it.

Negatives
After purchasing Klooge, I tried to set it up for 3.5 rules but it wasn't available at the time. I think, after reading the bottom/top forums on Klooge (hate that format btw!), that the users have fixed this but you have to download, tweak, etc... to get it working. It may be a very easy process, but I didn't want to take the time to figure java, etc... out.

Fantasy Grounds Review
Positives
Rolling dice is fun. Call it a stupid quirk but I'd be willing to bet that the dice rolling feature is one of the Top 5 things users like about the program. Consider the "pen & paper" days with the friends... someone was ALWAYS randomly tossing a dice on the table or trying to make a die spin even though it annoyed the DM! Same effect here.

Additionally, the packaging looks great. FG has the shiny bells/whistles that attract the eye.

Finally, the community and developers seem dedicated to making it better and listening to the users. In my opinion, the fact that Dupre, a developer, was even aware of this topic AND took time to respond to this topic is a HUGE testimony to their commitment to the product. It shows that SmiteWorks (?) is aware of more than just the FG site and that they are not resting on their last achievement.

Unfortunately, I also feel compelled to correct Dupre's posting above and add that "map zooming" is, as of Aug 25th, unavailable. It is part of the next patch that is scheduled to be released "soon" (Dupre's word on the FG Forums). Apparently, at GenCon, the demo version contained the map zoom feature so the full patch release is hopefully right around the corner.

Negatives
Well, the negatives are all of the features that people are requesting on the FG forums.  As a DM, the map zoom will be a HUGE benefit and make life a lot easier.  There are still some connectivity glitches that will occassionally drop a player for reasons I can't reliably duplicate but they quickly log back on and we continue w/o any major inconvenience.

Final Thoughts
I think FG is a great product. The initiatl goal was to re-create the original "pen and paper" feel for RPG's. I believe it has done a great job with it. I suspect some things will NOT be automated either for legal reasons (mentioned above) OR for the desire to remain true to some of the manual processes, just like "in the day".

I'm also confident that FG will improve in the near future. In addition to SW development, the user community is actively working on different rule sets, tokens, maps, scenarios, etc... While I'm sure this is also true for Klooge, I have some firsthand experience w/ the FG community and believe in the members.

However, Klooge appears to have some really, really, really cool stuff that FG has not indicated they are working on. One feature that sounds cool is being able to place a token on the map and have it be "invisible" to the players. Or being able to indicate a light source and have the "fog of war" move with the character with the light source. I wish I had experience with this software more to make a better informed decision.

Unfortunately, Klooge appears to be very technical and user unfriendly while Fantasy Grounds makes it pretty easy to get started. For those of you old enough to know... think of Klooge as "Beta" and Fantasy Grounds as "VHS".


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## artmc (Aug 25, 2005)

First off all thanks for the massive and detailed replies everyone.    


I am still looking these comments and will most assuredly be considering the comments
on making my final choice.


One thing that really, really weights in the favor of kLoOge.Werks, is that I will be
switching to Linux for my main OS on my desktop.  Though I will likely keep a small (10Gig +)
windows partition for 'emergencies'.  And  my laptop is a Powerbook.

Again thanks for the information.


*
* art *
…
/|\*​


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## azhrei_fje (Aug 26, 2005)

I wouldn't bother with Windoze at all except that I need it to run certain applications:  DMGenie, Adobe Distiller (for work), and to visit some of the online poker sites I play at. 

Whatever you figure out, please come back and report what you chose and why, as I'm sure it will help out others who are looking for software.


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## bloodydrake (Aug 26, 2005)

one thing about klooge mentioned is the 3rd edition def works perfectly fine with 3.5 there really isn't any mechanics difference between them.
the difference lies in changes to the rules that are actually independant to the def files functionality.
another thing is there are many different defs availble ][ero aka hero 1st 2nd 3rd edition, G6 aka gurps, starwarsd20,travellerd20(someones workign on this)
almost all are player made defs and if you have a basic knowlege of xml you can make your own defs and charactersheets that match your own homegrown rules.You want a COCd20 rules set..tweak the default one to match ect.

I wish there was an industrious Klooge fan like msd that could setup a solid fansite to make tracking down all the usermade content easier..maybe someday.
Both FG and KW are fantastic programs that you really can't go wrong with either.


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## Celestian (Aug 27, 2005)

I'm going to agree with Drake here. I use Klooge over all the others. It's stable, has all the features I need and the support from the authors has always been responsive when needed.

While I can't speak on the 3.0-3.5 issues I can say that it works fine for my 1e games. Thats right, there is even a rules set for 1e =)

I love the map and "fog of war", the grid scaling for said maps and the fact that it runs under java... that means it'll run under anything that RUNS java (Unix, PC, MAC/etc).

Of all the "pay for" applications I think this one is top notch. If you add something like TeamSpeak to this with your game place it's almost better than a real table =) Mind you, this sorta gaming requires a lot more prep.


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## shadowlight (Aug 27, 2005)

So do any of these include voice chat, or do you have to have a second program running in the background to let the players actually talk to each other?


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## shadowlight (Aug 27, 2005)

Dupre said:
			
		

> As a developer of Fantasy Grounds



This right here seems like an advantage of Fantasy Grounds.  They're actually out on the boards (not just their own) listening to their customers.  Nice!


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## DMFTodd (Aug 27, 2005)

Neither klooge nor Fantasy Grounds includes voice chat with it. You either type your chat or you run a second program for voice (I use klooge with Ventrilo).


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## bloodydrake (Aug 27, 2005)

currently we use teamspeak with it..how does ventrilo compair ?


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