# The One Ring/Adventures in Middle-earth License Goes to Free League



## BrockBallingdark (Mar 9, 2020)

There is a God!   If anyone, I wanted Fria Ligan to grab TOR!


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## Reynard (Mar 9, 2020)

Nice!


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## Reynard (Mar 9, 2020)

The only "bad" thing about this is I was kind of secretly hoping for AiME to get stripped of its ME IP and be rereleased as a generic toolkit for low magic 5E gaming.


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## Morrus (Mar 9, 2020)

Reynard said:


> The only "bad" thing about this is I was kind of secretly hoping for AiME to get stripped of its ME IP and be rereleased as a generic toolkit for low magic 5E gaming.



Isn’t it an OGC game? The non-Tolkien stuff (ie not the fluff) can be freely reused if so.


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## Jaeger (Mar 9, 2020)

imagineGod said:


> ...“Free League _shares all our values_. Values _which are vital in interpreting_ the most extraordinary fantasy world ever created, ...




Color me interested!

What are those values? 

And why are they so vital in interpreting Tolkiens works?

.


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## Arilyn (Mar 9, 2020)

This makes me feel happy and relieved.


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## imagineGod (Mar 9, 2020)

So is this the face of the new Adventures in Middle-earth orc? Courtesy of artist Nils Gullikson from the Forbidden Lands.


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## atanakar (Mar 9, 2020)

WOW! Free League are fast becoming a Big League player. Great news.


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## Reynard (Mar 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Isn’t it an OGC game? The non-Tolkien stuff (ie not the fluff) can be freely reused if so.



It is but they called all of the rules they created Product ID. Here's the text from the PI disclaimer: "
Product Identity: The following items are hereby identified as Product Identity, as defined in the Open Game License version 1.0a, Section 1(e), and are not Open Content:
All trademarks, registered trade-marks, proper names (characters, place names, etc.), new rules, classes, items, virtues, backgrounds, places, characters, artwork,
sidebars, and trade dress. Open Game Content: The Open content in this book includes material taken from the Systems Reference Document. No other portion of this
work may be reproduced in any form without permission."


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## shawnellsworth (Mar 9, 2020)

Hoping to see some of that amazing Tales from the Loop level artwork.


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## JeffB (Mar 9, 2020)

Never heard of them. Or rather don't recall hearing of them anyway.

How is their marketing and distribution power? Am I going to see TOR2E on bookshelves in the US alongside D&D like I do PF, FFG SW, etc?


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## atanakar (Mar 9, 2020)

JeffB said:


> Never heard of them. Or rather don't recall hearing of them anyway.
> 
> How is their marketing and distribution power? Am I going to see TOR2E on bookshelves in the US alongside D&D like I do PF, FFG SW, etc?




Yes. They make high quality RPG books.

• *Tales from the Loop* (winner of five ENnie Awards 2017, including Best Game),
• Sandbox retro fantasy *Forbidden Lands* (winner of four ENnie Awards 2019),
• Postapocalyptic *Mutant: Year Zero* (Silver ENnie for Best Rules 2015),
• Space opera *Coriolis - The Third Horizon* (Judge's Spotlight Award 2017),
• Dark fantasy *Symbaroum,*
• The official *ALIEN* rpg. (2020)


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## Morrus (Mar 9, 2020)

Reynard said:


> It is but they called all of the rules they created Product ID. Here's the text from the PI disclaimer: "
> Product Identity: The following items are hereby identified as Product Identity, as defined in the Open Game License version 1.0a, Section 1(e), and are not Open Content:
> All trademarks, registered trade-marks, proper names (characters, place names, etc.), new rules, classes, items, virtues, backgrounds, places, characters, artwork,
> sidebars, and trade dress. Open Game Content: The Open content in this book includes material taken from the Systems Reference Document. No other portion of this
> work may be reproduced in any form without permission."



Looks like a bit of a misunderstanding of the OGL. Anything which uses the OGC to derive mechanics from the SRD can't, by definition, not be OGC. You can't declare your new classes to not be OGC if you're using the OGL to derive classes from the SRD (though you can withhold the fluff text). So the SRD-derived mechanics (classes and the like) are OGC; they can't not be. Their travel rules, on the other hand, are all their own, so they don't have to be OGC.


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## JeffB (Mar 9, 2020)

atanakar said:


> Yes. They make high quality RPG books.
> 
> • Tales from the Loop (winner of five ENnie Awards 2017, including Best Game),
> • Sandbox retro fantasy Forbidden Lands (winner of four ENnie Awards 2019),
> ...




Thanks but this does not answer my question.

All kinds of products have won critical acclaim that I've never seen on a shelf.


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## Morrus (Mar 9, 2020)

JeffB said:


> Never heard of them. Or rather don't recall hearing of them anyway.



Blimey! They've been all over the place for a few years now. _Tales from the Loop? Aliens?_ None of that ringing any bells? There's even a _Tales from the Loop_ TV show coming soon.


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## Alzrius (Mar 9, 2020)

I suspect this won't be a popular opinion, but here's hoping we get stats for Gandalf in the new 5E releases!


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## atanakar (Mar 9, 2020)

JeffB said:


> Thanks but this does not answer my question.
> All kinds of products have won critical acclaim that I've never seen on a shelf.



Sorry for not being clearer. If they are on the shelves of my local store in Montreal,Canada, they should not have any problem hitting the shelves of US stores.


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## Reynard (Mar 9, 2020)

JeffB said:


> Thanks but this does not answer my question.
> 
> All kinds of products have won critical acclaim that I've never seen on a shelf.



Do people buy RPGs from shelves these days?


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## JeffB (Mar 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Blimey! They've been all over the place for a few years now. T_ales from the Loop? Aliens?_ None of that ringing any bells? There's even a _Tales from the Loop_ TV show coming soon.



Sorry?  

Of course I know the Alien franchise, but I don't recall ever seeing any of the RPG titles on shelves. I thought Tales from the Loop was a TV show.


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## JeffB (Mar 9, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Do people buy RPGs from shelves these days?




I do on occasion. I hate buying expensive hardbacks without a browse through. I've looked through all the 5E books on shelves. It saved me a ton of money.


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## Arilyn (Mar 9, 2020)

atanakar said:


> Sorry for not being clearer. If they are on the shelves of my local store in Montreal,Canada, they should not have any problem hitting the shelves of US stores.



And Tales from the Loop is sitting in my game store in Prince George, BC., so really shouldn't be a problem. And of course you can order their products if not on shelf.


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## Morrus (Mar 9, 2020)

JeffB said:


> I thought Tales from the Loop was a TV show.



TftL came out a few years ago. There's a news item about the new _Tales from the Loop_ starter set on the front page right now. Great chance to check them out!


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## lyle.spade (Mar 9, 2020)

Glad to see the IP will not disappear from the RPG world, but I'm going to be the contrarian here. The Year Zero engine is decent for some things, but feels pretty vanilla after some play. I've played Mutant Year Zero and Alien, and have read and worked on some materials for a Forbidden Lands campaign that we decided to shelve. I does 'dreary' well given what seems to be the designers' fixation on resource management and ever-present peril, and that could fit ME. Combat is pretty flat, however - not a lot to vary the feel of different weapons or moves. Yes, there is some, but if you're used to something like PF, 2d20, or even 5e with mid-level characters, the system will likely start to yield encounters that all feel the same after a while.

It seems odd, too, that a company that already has a lower magic, gritty fantasy world (Forbidden Lands) would produce something that has a similarly down-not vibe...at least if they pick up the "everything is slowly going to s#%t" vibe of AiME.

And for the record, there are many things to like about AiME, and I think it was a good translation of Tolkien's world to 5e. Still, kinda dreary.


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## Ethawyn (Mar 9, 2020)

lyle.spade said:


> Glad to see the IP will not disappear from the RPG world, but I'm going to be the contrarian here. The Year Zero engine is decent for some things, but feels pretty vanilla after some play.




I like YZE, but the story is very clear they're working on a version of _The One Ring _using the ruleset that was created for that game (which was owned by Sophisticated Games, the licenser, not Free League. So, opinons of YZE aren't really relevant.


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## Morrus (Mar 9, 2020)

Yeah, they're doing The One Ring and AiME (5E rules). There's no indication they're changing the ruleset. IN fact:

"Francesco Nepitello, author of the game series alongside Marco Maggi, will continue as its lead designer."


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## JeffB (Mar 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> TftL came out a few years ago. There's a news item about the new _Tales from the Loop_ starter set on the front page right now. Great chance to check them out!




Can't say that  the premise of the game/series floats my boat after looking at the TV show trailer, but thanks for the FYI. I'll keep an eye out for the Middle Earth news.


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## lyle.spade (Mar 9, 2020)

Ethawyn said:


> I like YZE, but the story is very clear they're working on a version of _The One Ring _using the ruleset that was created for that game (which was owned by Sophisticated Games, the licenser, not Free League. So, opinons of YZE aren't really relevant.




Good point. Then I will hope for the best and let others wander into the minefield and test that out first.


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## Staffan (Mar 9, 2020)

imagineGod said:


> So is this the face of the new Adventures in Middle-earth orc? Courtesy of artist Nils Gullikson from the Forbidden Lands.
> 
> 
> View attachment 119745



That would be awesome, but unfortunately not likely. As far as I'm aware, Nils Gulliksson doesn't work as an artist anymore, at least not in RPGs. That orc is from 1985. Nils was the main illustrator in the Swedish game Drakar och Demoner (which was an off-shoot from Runequest/Basic Roleplaying) in the mid to late 80s, and strongly established the game's look, because he was effin' amazing. But eventually he transitioned to a role in the company where he didn't draw as much, and then in the mid-90s the publisher went bankrupt and eventually got reconstructed as Paradox (which eventually lead to the Paradox that now owns World of Darkness, and which makes assorted strategy computer games).

Then, fast-forward to a couple of years ago. Someone at Fria Ligan got in touch with Nils Gulliksson, and got the rights to make an art book featuring a lot of his illustrations. They Kickstart the book, and one of the top stretch goals is "We'll make a new RPG based on these illustrations." Of course, they beat this stretch goal, and proceed to make Forbidden Lands by taking the Mutant Year Zero engine, adapting it for fantasy, and combining it with Nisse's amazing art (plus some new art drawn in the same vein).


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## Sunsword (Mar 9, 2020)

Reynard said:


> The only "bad" thing about this is I was kind of secretly hoping for AiME to get stripped of its ME IP and be rereleased as a generic toolkit for low magic 5E gaming.





Couldn't this still happen now that Cubicle 7 has lost the license? They could use the OGL to do this.

I feel bad for C7, they put a lot of great work into both games. I think Free League are a good company, but they will have a very strong foundation to work from.


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## Tyler Do'Urden (Mar 9, 2020)

JeffB said:


> Never heard of them. Or rather don't recall hearing of them anyway.
> 
> How is their marketing and distribution power? Am I going to see TOR2E on bookshelves in the US alongside D&D like I do PF, FFG SW, etc?




Well, I've seen their books at my FLGS; not at B&N.

But given it's Tolkien IP, there's certainly a chance it might show up at B&N...


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## Sunsword (Mar 9, 2020)

Jaeger said:


> Color me interested!
> 
> What are those values?
> 
> ...



Right and its not like C7 didn't get praise for both games. Its not like one of those terrible slap the D20 logo on an existing game and publish it during the early 3E era.


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## Sunsword (Mar 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Blimey! There's even a _Tales from the Loop_ TV show coming soon.




Serious question, isn't the show based on the artwork that inspired the game?


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## Ulfgeir (Mar 9, 2020)

Sunsword said:


> Serious question, isn't the show based on the artwork that inspired the game?




Yes. Indeed it is. They made some artbooks and then the game


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## Tyler Do'Urden (Mar 9, 2020)

Jaeger said:


> What are those values?
> 
> And why are they so vital in interpreting Tolkiens works?




A fundamental understanding of what the setting is about.

If you're dropping fireballs, collecting artifacts and piles of gold, and insisting on playing your Drow and Dragonborn PCs... well... you're not doing Middle Earth.

I'd say that the themes to emphasize are intimate stories over world-changing ones. The rewards are more likely to be humble in nature; great treasures and magical power lead to the shadow. A fundamental sense of melancholy and loss. Tough to sustain at an RP table (in the same way that sustaining the "cursed" nature of characters in the World of Darkness settings is tough and that they generally degenerate into horror-themed superhero games). But can be done in the materials themselves, and One Ring/AIME succeeded admirably. The end of the third age is a dark and lonely time. All the great kingdoms are fallen long ago or in steep decline. The world is about to be depopulated by plague, and the shadow is falling everywhere. Victories are small and only set back the inevitable. It's not the nihilistic darkness of a setting like 40K, but the darkness of Tolkien's worldview steeped in his experiences in WWI and his readings of folklore and Catholic neoplatonic theology (which are the twin roots of his own legendarium).

I decided I probably couldn't pull this off well right now, so I decided to run a Midgard campaign instead - Midgard has a lot of the same trappings as ME, but is much more high powered and high magic, and you don't have to say no to your players quite as much. But I still love the AIME materials and may run it at some point - or at least borrow liberally from it!


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 9, 2020)

Tyler Do'Urden said:


> A fundamental understanding of what the setting is about.
> 
> If you're dropping fireballs, collecting artifacts and piles of gold, and insisting on playing your Drow and Dragonborn PCs... well... you're not doing Middle Earth.
> 
> ...



Okay, not to be a contrarian....but, I have to disagree with some of this. 

You absolutely do not have to run TOR/AIME the way you describe in order to stay true to the source material. There are tales of brightness, and hope, and fellowship, and the victories absolutely can be lasting and genuine. 

Meloncholy is in the world, for sure, but a fellowship and a campaign can absolutely be happy and lighthearted. Focusing on one aspect of the world to the exclusion of others isn't any more true to Middle Earth than fireballs.


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## Eric V (Mar 9, 2020)

atanakar said:


> Sorry for not being clearer. If they are on the shelves of my local store in Montreal,Canada, they should not have any problem hitting the shelves of US stores.



Just out of curiosity, what's your local store?


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## atanakar (Mar 9, 2020)

Eric V said:


> Just out of curiosity, what's your local store?



L'Abyss, there is also LeValet (which used to be the RPG Mecca).


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## Jaeger (Mar 9, 2020)

Tyler Do'Urden said:


> A fundamental understanding of what the setting is about.
> ...




So how did C7 drop the ball? Most thought TOR and AiME was really good.

Sophisticated Games’s MD Robert Hyde made a _very interesting_ statement: “Free League shares _all our values_."

What _Values_ was C7 missing?

And how do they know Free league has those same _values_ ?

Inquiring minds want to know more!

.


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## Morrus (Mar 9, 2020)

Jaeger said:


> So how did C7 drop the ball? Most thought TOR and AiME was really good.




In our podcast interview with Dom (CEO of C7), he made it very clear to us that C7 was the one who chose to end the relationship. They didn't 'drop the ball' or 'lose the license' or anything like that.


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## teitan (Mar 10, 2020)

I'm excited but trepidatious. Is it going to be a continuation or a new edition of AIME? That's the question. Will we see Rohan as a print product now? Eager to hear the news as we are looking to maybe do an AIME game in the near future.


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## Retreater (Mar 10, 2020)

Free League makes some great products and I wish them well with the IP. Hopefully this will also free Cubicle to make more WHFRPG products.


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## Ringtail (Mar 10, 2020)

Awesome! I'm so glad to see this is continuing.

Now what I'm curious about is what about the progress C7 already made? Are they going to sell those art assets and already written manuscripts to Free League? Are they part of the license?

Or do they have to start from scratch? Considering the original designers are on board I'm sure we'll get something great, but I like the C7 art (and especially that Jared Blando map). It would be a shame to see it vanish.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 10, 2020)

Well, this may work out and the books may be easily available in the US. Tales from the Loop and several other books from Free League Publishing are available directly from, and shipped by, Amazon. With the higher profile that anything Tolkien gets, I am sure whatever is released, or re-released, will be too.

And on a side note, anyone in the US looking to get into Tales can get the books for about 25% off retail and free shipping right now from Amazon.


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## mach1.9pants (Mar 10, 2020)

It'll be interesting to see what comes out from them. I checked out Sophisticated Game's website, anything but sophisticated  However Free Leagues games are top notch production value. I wonder of we're going too see all of AiME reprinted, or just taking over from where C7 left off? Obviously TOR will be all new, as it is 2e


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## Fredrix (Mar 10, 2020)

JeffB said:


> Sorry?
> 
> Of course I know the Alien franchise, but I don't recall ever seeing any of the RPG titles on shelves. I thought Tales from the Loop was a TV show.



I think your local Gaming Store must be not great. The only Free League game that I never saw at my store is ironically my favourite, Coriolis. Oh and in other news, their Alien game is in the top five best selling games, you don’t get there without being in a few stores.


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## CapnZapp (Mar 10, 2020)

Morrus said:


> In our podcast interview with Dom (CEO of C7), he made it very clear to us that C7 was the one who chose to end the relationship. They didn't 'drop the ball'



Ah. So they didn't "drop the ball", they dropped the ball. Got it


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 10, 2020)

CapnZapp said:


> Ah. So they didn't "drop the ball", they dropped the ball. Got it




I still go with the conspiracy theory that Sophisticated Games wanted more money from the deal and C7 was not willing, so C7 "chose to end the relationship" before they were forced out of it or had it taken away. But we will never know the truth of that without seeing the contracts and monetary amounts from both the C7 and Free League deals.


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## Stefano Rinaldelli (Mar 10, 2020)

JeffB said:


> I do on occasion. I hate buying expensive hardbacks without a browse through. I've looked through all the 5E books on shelves. It saved me a ton of money.



Unfortunately seeing the books doesn't save money for me. I must buy everything for a spell that a bad mage cast on me when I was teenager


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## CapnZapp (Mar 10, 2020)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I still go with the conspiracy theory that Sophisticated Games wanted more money from the deal and C7 was not willing, so C7 "chose to end the relationship" before they were forced out of it or had it taken away. But we will never know the truth of that.



FIFY


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## aramis erak (Mar 10, 2020)

BrockBallingdark said:


> There is a God!   If anyone, I wanted Fria Ligan to grab TOR!



Up until FFG gutted their RPG department, FFG would have been my preferred, but FL is damned good, and would have been my second choice... I'm glad they got it.


JeffB said:


> Never heard of them. Or rather don't recall hearing of them anyway.
> 
> How is their marketing and distribution power? Am I going to see TOR2E on bookshelves in the US alongside D&D like I do PF, FFG SW, etc?



Their US and UK distribution is mostly via Modiphius for Brick and Mortar. For online dead tree? Modiphius' web store, their own web store, and Amazon. For digital? their webstore, DTRPG, some via modiphius' webstore.

Of the four stores I've looked for FL games in, only one has stock on shelf of FL games. (Guardian Games, portland, OR.) 2 are happy to order it.



Fredrix said:


> I think your local Gaming Store must be not great. The only Free League game that I never saw at my store is ironically my favourite, Coriolis. Oh and in other news, their Alien game is in the top five best selling games, you don’t get there without being in a few stores.



The only ones I've seen on shelves are MYZ, TFTL, and Forbidden Lands. Alien was all special orders at my FLGS, and wasn't yet out last I hit Guardian Games. (GG's 90-120 min away)

Many smaller communities, the game stores tend to stock only D&D, Pathfinder, and Palladium; slightly better ones add FFG products, BRP/CoC, Traveller, and/or Savage Worlds. If there are more story oriented games, Fate Core is likely to be on the shelf, along with Fiasco, and only the best have much else.

Palladium isn't a top seller, but it's a steady one.


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## RSIxidor (Mar 10, 2020)

I wonder if the fact that both ME and TFTL have an upcoming Amazon show factored into this at all, or if that was just circumstantial.


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## EpicureanDM (Mar 10, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Okay, not to be a contrarian....but, I have to disagree with some of this.
> 
> You absolutely do not have to run TOR/AIME the way you describe in order to stay true to the source material. There are tales of brightness, and hope, and fellowship, and the victories absolutely can be lasting and genuine.
> 
> Meloncholy is in the world, for sure, but a fellowship and a campaign can absolutely be happy and lighthearted. Focusing on one aspect of the world to the exclusion of others isn't any more true to Middle Earth than fireballs.



Have you actually run a game of _The One Ring_ and been able to achieve this? My understanding is that it's very difficult to play it happy and lighthearted if you play according to the rules.


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## Retreater (Mar 10, 2020)

EpicureanDM said:


> Have you actually run a game of _The One Ring_ and been able to achieve this? My understanding is that it's very difficult to play it happy and lighthearted if you play according to the rules.



Is Tolkien's Middle Earth "happy and lighthearted?" I never read it that way, nor is Peter Jackson's LotR series presented that way, nor the more recent video games ("Shadow of Mordor," etc.) Once you leave the Shire, things get pretty darned scary.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 10, 2020)

EpicureanDM said:


> Have you actually run a game of _The One Ring_ and been able to achieve this? My understanding is that it's very difficult to play it happy and lighthearted if you play according to the rules.




yep! Band of mostly hobbits, 1 elf, a very “bright flame of hope in the darkness” campaign.


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## Beleriphon (Mar 10, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> yep! Band of mostly hobbits, 1 elf, a very “bright flame of hope in the darkness” campaign.




This completely doable as well, however the setting for TOR is between_ The Hobbit_ and _Fellowship of the Ring_. The world is getting darker, we know how it ends in _Return of the King_, so most of the rules tend to double down on you can fix things locally, but you're not going to save the world. That is a task for different group of people in the future.


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## Arilyn (Mar 10, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> yep! Band of mostly hobbits, 1 elf, a very “bright flame of hope in the darkness” campaign.



Yep, you can definitely run it this way. Some of the One Ring modules have a large streak of whimsy in them.


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## Ethawyn (Mar 10, 2020)

Ringtail said:


> Awesome! I'm so glad to see this is continuing.
> 
> Now what I'm curious about is what about the progress C7 already made? Are they going to sell those art assets and already written manuscripts to Free League? Are they part of the license?
> 
> Or do they have to start from scratch? Considering the original designers are on board I'm sure we'll get something great, but I like the C7 art (and especially that Jared Blando map). It would be a shame to see it vanish.




The rules were finished, the game was set to be printed and shipped in late 2019/early 2020, so they'd made a lot of progress. Folks from Free League have confirmed on their forums and on the TOR Discord that it will be Francesco Nepitello's 2E version that he designed for C7 with some dials adjusted.

Here's the comment from Tomas on the Free League forums (translated by a Swede):


> "That's correct. We will look at all the material together with Francesco and maybe turn a few dials here and there, but the game will keep Francesco's ruleset."




And here's what Nils from FL had to say on the Discord:


> We will use the TOR system, it's Francesco's game and we don't want to fix what is not broken. Regarding Simon Stålenhag, he is a partner/co-owner of the company, we've been fortunate enough to publish him since day one




The later half of the comment was in response to someone wondering if Simon Stålenhag might do the artwork for the TOR line. It's obviously very oblique, but it makes we wonder if they are planning on doing all new artwork for it and having Simon do it. Alternatively, maybe they'll use C7 stuff for the core but call on Simon for the artwork on future editions. Either way, I think he'd be a wonderful person to do Lord of the Rings art. 

I hope they can at least purchase and print Blando's map. 




mach1.9pants said:


> It'll be interesting to see what comes out from them. I checked out Sophisticated Game's website, anything but sophisticated  However Free Leagues games are top notch production value. I wonder of we're going too see all of AiME reprinted, or just taking over from where C7 left off? Obviously TOR will be all new, as it is 2e




I'm curious about this as well. C7 owns all of the art assets for TOR 1 and 2, while Sophisticated Games owns the rule system and IP rights. I suspect that means that if they were to reprint 1e stuff they'd have to purchase all of the assets off of C7 and I'm not sure if they'd want to or if C7 would even be willing.



aramis erak said:


> Guardian Games, portland, OR.



Hey that's my FLGS! Love them.


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## Ringtail (Mar 10, 2020)

Ethawyn said:


> The rules were finished, the game was set to be printed and shipped in late 2019/early 2020, so they'd made a lot of progress. Folks from Free League have confirmed on their forums and on the TOR Discord that it will be Francesco Nepitello's 2E version that he designed for C7 with some dials adjusted.
> ...
> The later half of the comment was in response to someone wondering if Simon Stålenhag might do the artwork for the TOR line. It's obviously very oblique, but it makes we wonder if they are planning on doing all new artwork for it and having Simon do it. Alternatively, maybe they'll use C7 stuff for the core but call on Simon for the artwork on future editions. Either way, I think he'd be a wonderful person to do Lord of the Rings art.
> ...
> I hope they can at least purchase and print Blando's map.




Hoh boy, that's a lot of stuff I like to hear. Time will tell I suppose!


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## JeffB (Mar 10, 2020)

Retreater said:


> Is Tolkien's Middle Earth "happy and lighthearted?" I never read it that way... Once you leave the Shire, things get pretty darned scary.




Depending on the time period, sometimes it's pretty rough in The Shire too.


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Mar 10, 2020)

I see their books in my FLGS' all the time. 

I really hope that we get The One Ring 2e and not a Year Zero redo of TOR's game engine.


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## Ethawyn (Mar 10, 2020)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> I see their books in my FLGS' all the time.
> 
> I really hope that we get The One Ring 2e and not a Year Zero redo of TOR's game engine.




You're in luck, that's already been confirmed (thankfully). To pull the quotes I shared earlier: 

A comment from Tomas on the Free League forums (translated by a Swede):


> That's correct. We will look at all the material together with Francesco and maybe turn a few dials here and there, but the game will keep Francesco's ruleset.




And here's what Nils from FL had to say on the TOR Discord:


> We will use the TOR system, it's Francesco's game and we don't want to fix what is not broken. Regarding Simon Stålenhag, he is a partner/co-owner of the company, we've been fortunate enough to publish him since day one.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 10, 2020)

Beleriphon said:


> ... most of the rules tend to double down on you can fix things locally, but you're not going to save the world. That is a task for different group of people in the future.



The rules don’t enforce that at all, actually. 


Arilyn said:


> Yep, you can definitely run it this way. Some of the One Ring modules have a large streak of whimsy in them.



as they should. The Hobbit and a lot of LOTR are a mix of whimsy and darkness, enduring hope and momentary despair.

Whenever I see someone reading it as a super dark setting where lighthearted is next to impossibly while staying true to the source...I kinda wonder if we read different books.


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## Beleriphon (Mar 10, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> The rules don’t enforce that at all, actually.




They kind of do, you can't march to Mordor and punch Sauron in the face. The rules are very clear there are somethings the characters can't defeat. They might be able to hold back the darkness, but it isn't their place to put an end to it.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 11, 2020)

Beleriphon said:


> They kind of do, you can't march to Mordor and punch Sauron in the face. The rules are very clear there are somethings the characters can't defeat. They might be able to hold back the darkness, but it isn't their place to put an end to it.



Well, no. The rules don’t provide stats for Sauron, and punching him in the face wouldn’t solve anything anyway, and he isn’t returned as Sauron in the time period. So, the narrative prevents “marching into Mordor and punching Sauron in the face [and that solving anything]”, but the actual rules certainly don’t. 

However, not only is a campaign only beholden to canon if the groups wants to be, but there is also plenty of room within the canon for them to save the world from something other than Sauron, or to put an end to an attempt by Sauron to rise in the guise of something else, etc.

If ending Sauron for good is your only interpretation of a lasting victory, I can kinda see your point, though I still disagree with it. But there are other evils than Morgoth’s servant, and absolutely no rule in the TOR system anywhere that stops you from facing them and winning. Nor from pushing back the darkness and creating an era of renewed hope.


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## Stefano Rinaldelli (Mar 11, 2020)

You CAN'T defeat Sauron because Sauron is the personification of lust for power and greed. It make no sense to try. But you can stand still against this force keeping Arda from falling into darkness. Definitely not the american cliche of solving the problem going to the root and stop it with two punch and a kick in the face. You can do epic things and great adventures, but you have to leave behind the idea of solving the problem once and forever.


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## macd21 (Mar 11, 2020)

JeffB said:


> Never heard of them. Or rather don't recall hearing of them anyway.
> 
> How is their marketing and distribution power? Am I going to see TOR2E on bookshelves in the US alongside D&D like I do PF, FFG SW, etc?




They’re one of the bigger 2nd Tier RPG companies right now. They tend to produce high quality big full colour hard backs. They usually (but not always) kickstart their core books.

They certainly have marketing and distribution chops, but whether you see LotR in bookstores is more down to interest than anything FL will do. Usually only the top RPG sellers manage that (DnD, PF, SW). The LotR brand might be enough to peak some interest, but I doubt it.


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## CapnZapp (Mar 11, 2020)

Stefano Rinaldelli said:


> You CAN'T defeat Sauron because Sauron is the personification of lust for power and greed. It make no sense to try. But you can stand still against this force keeping Arda from falling into darkness. Definitely not the american cliche of solving the problem going to the root and stop it with two punch and a kick in the face. You can do epic things and great adventures, but you have to leave behind the idea of solving the problem once and forever.



I believe he's coming from the D&D mindset.

Just give Sauron a level, so we know how much xp we need to bypass Tolkien's pesky narrative and just go punch him in the face.

It's "if it bleeds we can kill it" all over again, except D&D gamers have never stopped because the monster doesn't bleed...


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## Hriston (Mar 11, 2020)

At the end of the Third Age, I don't think Sauron even had a face -- maybe an eye, or a hand, but not a face.


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## Cergorach (Mar 11, 2020)

Stefano Rinaldelli said:


> You CAN'T defeat Sauron because Sauron is the personification of lust for power and greed. It make no sense to try.



What is stopping someone from becoming the personification of stupid stubbornness and trying anyway? ;-)


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## aramis erak (Mar 11, 2020)

macd21 said:


> They’re one of the bigger 2nd Tier RPG companies right now. They tend to produce high quality big full colour hard backs. They usually (but not always) kickstart their core books.
> 
> They certainly have marketing and distribution chops, but whether you see LotR in bookstores is more down to interest than anything FL will do. Usually only the top RPG sellers manage that (DnD, PF, SW). The LotR brand might be enough to peak some interest, but I doubt it.



C7 managed to get TOR into Barnes and Noble for a while. Actually, B&N had the Revised core out two days before my FLGS...


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## Jaeger (Mar 11, 2020)

Morrus said:


> In our podcast interview with Dom (CEO of C7), he made it very clear to us that C7 was the one who chose to end the relationship. They didn't 'drop the ball' or 'lose the license' or anything like that.




Ok, so C7 chose to not continue because "reasons".

Still Doesn't Clarify at all what he meant by "All our values"...


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## Morrus (Mar 11, 2020)

Jaeger said:


> Ok, so C7 chose to not continue because "reasons".



Dom has class. He’s not going to speak ill of a partner, past or present. That’s just unbecoming and unprofessional.



> Still Doesn't Clarify at all what he meant by "All our values"...



I mean, it sounds like some kind of dig. Dunno.


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## BookBarbarian (Mar 12, 2020)

Woohoo! I've very much enjoyed running AiME, and after having picked up the recent AiME humble bundle I'm well situated to start back up.

Very excited!


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 13, 2020)

Stefano Rinaldelli said:


> You CAN'T defeat Sauron because Sauron is the personification of lust for power and greed. It make no sense to try. But you can stand still against this force keeping Arda from falling into darkness. Definitely not the american cliche of solving the problem going to the root and stop it with two punch and a kick in the face. You can do epic things and great adventures, but you have to leave behind the idea of solving the problem once and forever.



Who said anything about stopping Sauron once and for all?
But, since you mentioned it...that’s literally what happens in the books. Sauron isn’t a cosmic constant, he’s evil Gandalf with powerful magic items and an army. 
You can’t defeat him because you don’t have the one ring and don’t know how to destroy it even if you found it. 


CapnZapp said:


> I believe he's coming from the D&D mindset.



No.


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## Stefano Rinaldelli (Mar 13, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Who said anything about stopping Sauron once and for all?
> But, since you mentioned it...that’s literally what happens in the books. Sauron isn’t a cosmic constant, he’s evil Gandalf with powerful magic items and an army.
> You can’t defeat him because you don’t have the one ring and don’t know how to destroy it even if you found it.



Mmmmh I don't know. It is not stated in the book and even if nothing suggest something different, the price Arda pays is the desappearance of the Grace: Elves gone definitely to the West, Gandalf say goodbye and Frodo and the Hobbits loose their innocence forever.

It's a metaphor of the transition from childhood to adulthood (as is for normal people, not us  ), ok, but make clear that this kind of battles requires ab unfillable loss forever.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 13, 2020)

Stefano Rinaldelli said:


> Mmmmh I don't know. It is not stated in the book and even if nothing suggest something different, the price Arda pays is the desappearance of the Grace: Elves gone definitely to the West, Gandalf say goodbye and Frodo and the Hobbits loose their innocence forever.
> 
> It's a metaphor of the transition from childhood to adulthood (as is for normal people, not us  ), ok, but make clear that this kind of battles requires ab unfillable loss forever.



Well, no. That loss was already happening. The War of The Ring determined what Middle Earth was going to be after that loss. Do we come into adulthood in darkness or light?


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## Stefano Rinaldelli (Mar 13, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Well, no. That loss was already happening. The War of The Ring determined what Middle Earth was going to be after that loss. Do we come into adulthood in darkness or light?




It's an interesting way of seeing it.


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## Arilyn (Mar 13, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Well, no. That loss was already happening. The War of The Ring determined what Middle Earth was going to be after that loss. Do we come into adulthood in darkness or light?



The age of elves giving way to the age of man. And yes, I agree. What kind of earth would man inherit was determined in the War of the Ring.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 13, 2020)

Arilyn said:


> The age of elves giving way to the age of man. And yes, I agree. What kind of earth would man inherit was determined in the War of the Ring.



Yeah, the age of elves started ending after the first war against Sauron, IIRC. 

But back to the other side topic, there is plenty of room in ME roleplaying, regardless of system, to be Heroes, to bear the light of hope into dark places and drive back the Shadow, to make some part of the world better. YOu just can't take care of what the fellowship of the ring takes care of if you want to stay in canon. Not because the world won't allow it, or because it's unthinkable, or because the rules work against, but literally just because of canon. Sauron doesn't have stats because you'd have to go back to that first war or earlier for him to be a creature that would make sense to give stats to, not because he can't be defeated.

You can't defeat him by punching or stabbing him, but...so far as I can tell the only people who brought up physical violence with regard to Sauron are people responding to my post wherein I made no mention whatsoever of winning a physical fight with Sauron. Maybe someone I ignore, and thus whose posts I don't see, suggested you can go fight Sauron? IDK.


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## Stefano Rinaldelli (Mar 14, 2020)

Arilyn said:


> The age of elves giving way to the age of man. And yes, I agree. What kind of earth would man inherit was determined in the War of the Ring.



Maybe elves were already going away from ME, but this is not in contradiction with the "loss in victory" fact.


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## dchart (Mar 15, 2020)

Beleriphon said:


> They kind of do, you can't march to Mordor and punch Sauron in the face. The rules are very clear there are somethings the characters can't defeat. They might be able to hold back the darkness, but it isn't their place to put an end to it.



On the other hand, page 96 of _Horse Lords of Rohan _has a third-page box discussing the possibility that the player characters could prevent the corruption of Saruman. I don't know about you, but I would find that a completely satisfying positive story arc for a Middle Earth campaign. In some ways, more so than a simple "you do Frodo's job" campaign, because there would be much more freedom in how things played out.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Mar 16, 2020)

A wonderful company full of professionalism gets the rights to one of my favorite game line? Yeahhhh! 
The only question I have is: ''where's my Moria box set?!'' 

I wish they would ask Jon Hodgson to do some of the art in the new books, even if he's otherwise occupied with its new company.


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## Guest 6801328 (Mar 17, 2020)

Nothing in the design of TOR prevents the PCs from becoming the heroes who save the world.  E.g., like Sam (with some notable help from Frodo.). 

But it does pretty much prevent them from becoming super-powered heroes like Gandalf/Glorfindel, or even like Aragorn/Boromir.  

In other words, it has constrained mechanics,  not constrained storyline.

Although I suppose you could, if you interpreted both the fiction and the rules in a very particular way, force those two graphs to cross.  Along the lines of the famous "Gandalf was a 5th Level Magic-User" essay.  

Not the interpretation I prefer.


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## aramis erak (Mar 19, 2020)

Elfcrusher said:


> Although I suppose you could, if you interpreted both the fiction and the rules in a very particular way, force those two graphs to cross.  Along the lines of the famous "Gandalf was a 5th Level Magic-User" essay.
> 
> Not the interpretation I prefer.



TOR's mechanics make even the most powerful magic users of the non-(high-elves & istari) not even as powerful as a level 1 wizard. The magic is subtle and all pervasive... but Gandalf really is comparable to a 5th level AD&D wizard with Int 20. (I suspect his dump stat, however, was Wisdom.) The special effects rule of high elves is pretty subtle, too...

His "fireball" doesn't even kill the goblins in The Hobbit; it stuns and pains them, but doesn't kill them. Most of his magic is easily subsumed with cantrips in AD&D 1e+GHA, 3e, 4e, or 5e...  but that stunning burst feels more like a fireball converted from damage to (level)d6 individuals stunned for 1d6 rounds.

The D&D magic is much more flashy than any of Tolkien's but the Istari, and even then, the Istari we see (Radagast and Gandalf) seem to be pretty weak by D&D terms. The only thing Gandalf routinely does with his magic is cast light on his staff, and igniting his pipe.


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## Stefano Rinaldelli (Mar 19, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> TOR's mechanics make even the most powerful magic users of the non-(high-elves & istari) not even as powerful as a level 1 wizard. The magic is subtle and all pervasive... but Gandalf really is comparable to a 5th level AD&D wizard with Int 20. (I suspect his dump stat, however, was Wisdom.) The special effects rule of high elves is pretty subtle, too...
> 
> His "fireball" doesn't even kill the goblins in The Hobbit; it stuns and pains them, but doesn't kill them. Most of his magic is easily subsumed with cantrips in AD&D 1e+GHA, 3e, 4e, or 5e...  but that stunning burst feels more like a fireball converted from damage to (level)d6 individuals stunned for 1d6 rounds.
> 
> The D&D magic is much more flashy than any of Tolkien's but the Istari, and even then, the Istari we see (Radagast and Gandalf) seem to be pretty weak by D&D terms. The only thing Gandalf routinely does with his magic is cast light on his staff, and igniting his pipe.




It depends on what kind of "magic" you are talking about. Yes Gandalf has no fireballs but can fight with his sword against a Balrog and even impose to him to not pass. He can evoke and direct a lightining and evoke the king of eagles ti rescue him. It's magic is in his force of will and in the manipulation of nature.


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## Reynard (Mar 19, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> TOR's mechanics make even the most powerful magic users of the non-(high-elves & istari) not even as powerful as a level 1 wizard. The magic is subtle and all pervasive... but Gandalf really is comparable to a 5th level AD&D wizard with Int 20. (I suspect his dump stat, however, was Wisdom.) The special effects rule of high elves is pretty subtle, too...
> 
> His "fireball" doesn't even kill the goblins in The Hobbit; it stuns and pains them, but doesn't kill them. Most of his magic is easily subsumed with cantrips in AD&D 1e+GHA, 3e, 4e, or 5e...  but that stunning burst feels more like a fireball converted from damage to (level)d6 individuals stunned for 1d6 rounds.
> 
> The D&D magic is much more flashy than any of Tolkien's but the Istari, and even then, the Istari we see (Radagast and Gandalf) seem to be pretty weak by D&D terms. The only thing Gandalf routinely does with his magic is cast light on his staff, and igniting his pipe.



This kind of thing only makes sense if you assume that the whole world looks like D&D, which it clearly doesn't. Magic is pervasive in Middle Earth. People, even hobbits from the Shire, have heard of sorcerers and monstrous wolves and magical toys made by dwarves. It's just not D&D magic. So the Istari are certainly not "low level magic users" by any measure that makes sense in Middle Earth. Gandalf knows EVERY spell ever made by elf, dwarf, man or orc. That statement alone tells you a lot about the prevalence of magic in Middle Earth as well as Gandalf's power and knowledge. And he certainly does far more than light his pipe.

I suggest folks reread the books rather than relying on half remembered knowledge from the movies or when they had to write a book report in 8th grade.


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## Guest 6801328 (Mar 19, 2020)

Reynard said:


> This kind of thing only makes sense if you assume that the whole world looks like D&D, which it clearly doesn't. Magic is pervasive in Middle Earth. People, even hobbits from the Shire, have heard of sorcerers and monstrous wolves and magical toys made by dwarves. It's just not D&D magic. So the Istari are certainly not "low level magic users" by any measure that makes sense in Middle Earth. Gandalf knows EVERY spell ever made by elf, dwarf, man or orc. That statement alone tells you a lot about the prevalence of magic in Middle Earth as well as Gandalf's power and knowledge. And he certainly does far more than light his pipe.




I clicked "Like" for this.



> I suggest folks reread the books rather than relying on half remembered knowledge from the movies or when they had to write a book report in 8th grade.




Then I un-clicked it because of this.


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## Reynard (Mar 19, 2020)

Elfcrusher said:


> I clicked "Like" for this.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I un-clicked it because of this.



I appreciate you calling me out a bit on that. I was unnecessarily harsh.


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## CapnZapp (Mar 19, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> not even as powerful as a level 1 wizard.



Believe you me, *everybody* is more powerful than a level 1 AD&D Wizard


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## aramis erak (Mar 19, 2020)

CapnZapp said:


> Believe you me, *everybody* is more powerful than a level 1 AD&D Wizard



A first level AD&D wizard can kill 2-3 normal people a day with one spell, or subdue 4-20... we don't see anything in Hobbit or LOTR of similar potency from most in those novels. Having found the Silmarillion unreadably dull, and by comparison to Unfinished Tales, I can only judge by what I've read... and note that D&D/AD&D wizards are able to kill directly with magic (magic missile doing 1d4+1 or 1d6+1 per missile, and joe normal being either 1d4 or a fixed HPT under 4...)... something we do not see in LOTR nor the Hobbit. We do see Saruman trap Gandalf... but we don't see Gandalf kill with a word and gesture.

The AD&D wizard at level 1 is a common man hit-wise, but can kill any one 0-level human with a single spell... or probably kill 3 common men.


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## Fenris-77 (Mar 19, 2020)

CapnZapp said:


> Believe you me, *everybody* is more powerful than a level 1 AD&D Wizard



A 1st level AD&D Wizard would get capped by a couple of toddlers who wanted their blocks back. It's a sad state of affairs.


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## aramis erak (Mar 21, 2020)

Fenris-77 said:


> A 1st level AD&D Wizard would get capped by a couple of toddlers who wanted their blocks back. It's a sad state of affairs.



Given that level 0 non-warriors tend to have the same 1-4 range of hitpoints, no, they're not that weak. It's just that AD&D is a game of medievalish Super Heroes.


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## Ampolitor (Mar 22, 2020)

so I just hope they continue with what has already been put out and not another new rules system, that would suck, I just want the Moria boxed set already!


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## CapnZapp (Mar 22, 2020)

Ampolitor said:


> so I just hope they continue with what has already been put out and not another new rules system, that would suck, I just want the Moria boxed set already!



It will be a second edition of The One Ring.


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## aramis erak (Mar 25, 2020)

CapnZapp said:


> It will be a second edition of The One Ring.



If they keep the changes already announced, it's going to have a few fundamental changes in the task mechanics. 
Amongst the changes announced:

1E – TN 14 or, optionally, by difficulty of action
2E – TN18-Att (TN 18-Favored Att for Favored skills)
1E: Spending hope adds attribute to roll (Favored Att if Favored Skill)
2E: spending hope adds "hope bonus" to roll; derivation not specified but wording implies not attribute derived, and it's one score regardless of attribute.
1E – Hope and Endurance varies by Culture
2E – Hope and Endurance figured by uniform process from attributes.
Shadow - 2E adds a weakness, which adds an extra point if it's the reason for shadow gain.
Fatigue on journeys
1E: from failed travel rolls
2E: from distance and terrains travelled.
Tolerance 
1E: not really clearly laid out for scope - Per bargaining session? Per Town? (I've used it both ways in the same town! It's a great GM tool for "Stick to what you need" for town.)
2: Only for "Councils"
So, compatible? Not really. Easily converted on the fly? Yes. The relative value of attributes is strongly altered, and the expectations of Hope and Endurance are quite different. The "always exhausted Dwarf" in plate with a greataxe, armored like a tank, possibly with 6d armor from Armor Mastery, and Axe 3 at start who wades into close and becomes an out-door abattoir...

I think it good that C7 was planning the name change to LOTR... as the tone is significantly different. But we shall have to see if FL and FN decide to keep all those. I know I'll be using the new TN's next time I run TOR. And it will make CharGen choices matter more.


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## CapnZapp (Mar 25, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> If they keep the changes already announced, it's going to have a few fundamental changes in the task mechanics.



Since it is a new edition and not a reprint, "a few fundamental changes" is not only unwelcome, but entirely expected.

My point, I guess, is that me saying "It will be a new edition" already answers Ampolitor's hope "they continue with what has already been put out and not another new rules system".

Since it's a new edition (and not a new game) it will be much but not all of what he hopes. For one thing, a new edition means a "reset" on published materials (beginning anew with a rulebook and so on), meaning a particular product (such as Moria) is likely more distant in time than if the current edition had just... proceeded.

But there is no reason to expect a new edition to be entirely incompatible with existing materials. (It happens but we have no indication of any plans in this direction here)


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## BookBarbarian (Mar 26, 2020)

Late to the party again but to say that Gandalf *is *a 5th level magic user because he only *displays *spells that a 5th level magic user is a terrible leap in logic. 5th level magic user don't solo Balors.

But Gandalf clearly wasn't built using PC rules. In 5e he'd be CR 16 Planetar or at least a CR 10 Deva with innate spellcasting and an appropriate spell list, a legendary magic ring, and one of the sweetest longswords ever forged. The text also seem to indicate his staff held some power too (at least he took great care to take possession of Saruman's staff after breaking it with a verbal command)


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## Stefano Rinaldelli (Mar 26, 2020)

BookBarbarian said:


> The text also seem to indicate his staff held some power too (at least he took great care to take possession of Saruman's staff after breaking it with a verbal command)




We will discover that Gandalf is a Lich with perpetual illusion around him and the staff is his philactery!


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## the_malbeth (May 13, 2020)

Since Nepitello created The One Ring rules from the ground up & preferred it and he is going to Free League and Sophisticated Games are in agreement with Free League; is it possible Cubicle 7 wanted to prioritize the 5E based Adventures in Middle Earth instead but that Sophisticated Games did not?  Will Free League be producing the 5E version as well?


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## Morrus (May 13, 2020)

the_malbeth said:


> Will Free League be producing the 5E version as well?



Yes.


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## Ethawyn (May 13, 2020)

the_malbeth said:


> Since Nepitello created The One Ring rules from the ground up & preferred it and he is going to Free League and Sophisticated Games are in agreement with Free League; is it possible Cubicle 7 wanted to prioritize the 5E based Adventures in Middle Earth instead but that Sophisticated Games did not?  Will Free League be producing the 5E version as well?




We have no evidence one way or another as to why things broke down with Cubicle 7, though that rumor has been floated on the Discord and vehemently denied by Emmet from C7. It also seems unlikely given all the work they were pouring into TOR 2E.

As for TOR and AiME, Free League plans to support both lines. There's even some synergy there as they've been planning 5e Synbaroum. 

Regardless, though, they've made it clear that they recognize that TOR is Nepitello's baby and they want to support that. 

Their English language podcast Free League Table Talk is sadly fairly infrequent, but is a good source of information on this stuff.


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