# Min/max'ing Rogues!



## SadisticFishing (May 14, 2007)

Alright, well, I have a close friend who's playing in the next campaign we're starting up. In the last one, he was a Warlock, and he looked to me for making him super powerful - and I failed =( .... Mostly because he didn't want to use my feat build, and partly because we didn't know how Metaspelllike feats worked, and because I'd never heard of Hellfire Warlock and didn't look very hard.

Anyways, this campaign, he is playing a simple CG Rogue, and I'm looking for ways to make him own.

His stats are: (32 point buy, tell me if he got them wrong - I would have done it slightly differently, but he doesn't really listen to me heh)

12, 16, 14, 14, 10, 12.

For feats, I was thinking; H: Weapon Finesse, 1: Two-Weapon Fighting, 3: Weapon Focus (Dagger), 6: Improved Initiative... But I'm not sure where to go from there. Disembowling Strike (CSco) actually seems rather interesting, Dual Strike (CAdv) looks okay too, move actions are always fun...

But "How can I max his damage output?" is the real question of the day, and any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Oh if it helps at all, the part is: Druid (me), Paladin, Knight (warforged, this should be fun), and Sorceress.


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## Aust Diamondew (May 14, 2007)

Legally weapon finese requires BAB +1 so a human rogue 1 couldn't take it.  Now most DMs, myself included, ignore this rule.

I'd probably drop weapon focus (dagger) or improved initiative and instead take quick draw.  One of the biggest advantages of a character who fights with daggers is the ability to switch between melee/ranged attacks, quick draw lets you do that while still executing a full attack action.

ITWF is can help you maximize damage the trouble is hitting with that extra off hand attack sometimes.


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## Wish (May 14, 2007)

Well, if you want more damage, get more strength.

32 point buy could get you:
16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha.

Feats: H - Power Attack, 1 - Combat Reflexes, 3 - EWP - Spiked Chain, 6 - W. Focus Spiked Chain, 9 - Staggering Strike, 12 - Combat Expertise, 15 - Improved Trip, 18 - Quick Draw (the last 4 feats are really optional, you could do whatever you wanted to do with them).

Mix in one level of Exotic Weapon Master for Flurry of Strikes and possibly a second level for the +2 trip bonus.

If you want to get more melee ability, pick up 4 fighter levels for Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery (along with bab 16 at 20th level for a 4th attack).

If you can find a deity with favored weapon spiked chain, you could mix in Pious Templar instead, for better will saves, some low level spellcasting, and mettle.


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## SadisticFishing (May 14, 2007)

Trying to stay a skill-monkey 

That's a pretty cool idea, but I don't think it's what he's looking for >_> more gutter-rat than weapon master


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## Thanael (May 14, 2007)

Go prestige asap. Streetfighter, Invisible Blade, Master Thrower come to mind.


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## Raspen (May 14, 2007)

first i would use the dark creature temp from ToM then eather take two options go with the hell braker class (FC2) or rogue up to 10th lvl.  if you go with the hell braker then use the sub lvl for rogue in (PlanerHB) and work with staggering strike feat improved crit rapier and telling blow.

of you go with rogue to lvl 10 then i would get cripling strike and the ambush feat from CS that does -2str penalty so you can kill peeps with str damage i would also max UMD and get wands *ray of enfeeblement* i know it dont stack with the feat but you could use this befor you get to target or if its running away. takeing things down to 0str is kinda easy use could use exhaustion as well if you get an enchant for your weopen or use a wand


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## Particle_Man (May 14, 2007)

Look at class variant options.  Dungeonscape, for instance, lets the rogue swap out "trap sense" for "sneak attack things normally immune to sneak attack for half damage, if I am flanking".

Is ToB allowed?  Because spending some feats on maneuvers (and more importantly, stances once you have a maneuver as a prereq) can greatly help the thief.  Who wouldn't like "you flank a creature whenever you and an ally are adjacent to it"?


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## Darklone (May 14, 2007)

What does he want to be?

Melee TWF dagger dude: Mentioned above, I'd go Ftr4/Rog4 towards invisible blade. Multiclassing with Swashbuckler and/or Scout might be interesting as well and will allow you to get Melee Weapon Mastery... the Swift Ambusher feat heading towards Dervish class rocks.

Sniper: TWF wielded hand-crossbows. Halfling would be a good idea. Rapid Reload. Crossbow Sniper from PHB2 for dex/2 to damage. Get wands of Flame Arrow (and E-subbed Flame Arrow) ASAP. 

Archer rogue: Get good str and dex and a mighty comp longbow. Haste boots. 

Simple question: What does he want? Human TWF dagger rogue? Mix in some fighter levels or at least human racial paragon levels from UA for bonus feats and get Two Weapon Pounce and Two Weapon Rend from PHB2. Then head for Tempest class after taking Invisible Blade.


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## nittanytbone (May 14, 2007)

It sounds like you're working from level 1 on up.  Thus, low level utility is important.

I'd suggest either of these pre-PrC builds.

Dual-Wielder:  Rogue 1/Ranger 2
1 - Rogue 1 - Iron will (Your will save WILL be crap for the forseeable future, and it needs to be better, and you can't take anything better at this point anyways);  Improved Initiative (It helps to get SA at early levels by catching foes flat-footed, and will be useful every single encounter, and you can't take anything more useful now); Sneak Attack +1d6
2 - Ranger 1 - Track (Free), Favored Enemy (pick something common like Humans or Goblinoids OR select something immune to SA such as undead or elementals)
3 - Ranger 2 - TWF (Free), Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus (Short Sword) depending on STR vs. DEX and your Swashbuckler plans

For the future, aim for:
- More rogue levels (Up to 3 or 4) for evasion, +2d6 SA, skills, and uncanny dodge
- Up to Ranger 6 for ITWF, weak animal companion, minor WIS based spellcasting (yuck - UMD is superior most of the time)
- Swashbuckler 3 for Insightful Strike (INT to damage) and free Weapon Finesse

Nightsong Enforcer makes for a solid, durable PrC.

Ability scores:
STR - 14 (carrying stuff, and damage)
DEX - 15 (Drop all level up stat boosts here and focus on items to max this)
CON - 14 (you're on the front line, need HP)
INT - 14 (You're the skill monkey)
WIS - 8 (useful only for will saves -- Iron Will will offset -- pump higher if you have the free points, but otherwise something has to give)
CHA - 8 (Dump stat -- skills can make up for this weakness)

That's 26 points.  You can use your additional points to boost DEX higher or shore up WIS.

CoDZilla:  Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X
The point here is to use your C. Cleric SP to keep Search & Disable Device maxed via cross-class skills.  Those are the only two absolutely mission-critical skills for a rogue, anyways.  Then, you become a cleric.  As is well known, clerics rock muchly and are very, very powerful.  A quick search will turn up any number of cleric builds.

Also, Cloistered Cleric shores up traditional rogue weaknesses (Will saves!), provides full spellcasting, and offers access to many utility spells that are useful for problem solving rogues.  A 2 or 4 level dip can be useful to any rogue with 12 WIS, actually.


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## Particle_Man (May 14, 2007)

nittanytbone said:
			
		

> CoDZilla:  Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X
> The point here is to use your C. Cleric SP to keep Search & Disable Device maxed via cross-class skills.  Those are the only two absolutely mission-critical skills for a rogue, anyways.  Then, you become a cleric.  As is well known, clerics rock muchly and are very, very powerful.  A quick search will turn up any number of cleric builds.




Since the "D" in CoDzilla stands for Druid, a Rogue/Druid could also work.  There is a feat that allows you to sneak attack will grappling and wildshaped, which is pretty cool.


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## Darklone (May 15, 2007)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Since the "D" in CoDzilla stands for Druid, a Rogue/Druid could also work.  There is a feat that allows you to sneak attack will grappling and wildshaped, which is pretty cool.



??? Where does it say that you can't sneak attack while you're wildshaped??? That sneak attack while grappling sounds interesting though.


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## nittanytbone (May 15, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> ??? Where does it say that you can't sneak attack while you're wildshaped??? That sneak attack while grappling sounds interesting though.




I believe he's referring to Savage Grapple from the complete series (Complete Divine?) that lets you burn a wildshape usage to SA in a grapple.


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## Darklone (May 15, 2007)

nittanytbone said:
			
		

> I believe he's referring to Savage Grapple from the complete series (Complete Divine?) that lets you burn a wildshape usage to SA in a grapple.



Right... Thanks, it's in CAdv. 

Nice feat, but still: You can sneak attack in wildshape without any problems.... but reading the post again: Sorry, P-man, I misread your post as "You can't sneak attack normally when wildshaped."


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## Particle_Man (May 15, 2007)

No worries.


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## moritheil (May 15, 2007)

I personally recommend Telling Blow for any rogue looking to deal more damage, and hereby express my shock that only one person has posted a recommendation for it thus far.   



			
				nittanytbone said:
			
		

> I believe he's referring to Savage Grapple from the complete series (Complete Divine?) that lets you burn a wildshape usage to SA in a grapple.




Looking at Savage Grapple from Complete Adventurer, you do not need to burn a wildshape use to activate the feat - you always deal SA with every grapple check you make when wildshaped.  (Presumably, if you are a druid, you will generally want to be wildshaped anyhow during important fights.)  It's not really as hot as it seems unless you go right into Daggerspell Shaper to advance both casting and SA . . . which then locks you out of doing other things.

(I'm currently playing a 20th level druid/DsS/DivO.  It's not as awesome as it might seem; I only have 3d6 SA as a consequence of having to ensure that I get 9th level spells.)


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## Jondor_Battlehammer (May 15, 2007)

With all the other classes you will be playing with, I would go with 14s across the board, and keep bumping your INT. Getting a +1 in one stat is not worth sacrificing +2 in two others. For a rogue, your skill list is your most important class feature, and the only one that really doesn't benefit from stat boosting items. Your tumble skill will let you use SA more often, which is where the meat of your damage will always come from. UMD will let you increase AoE damage done by your party. Any wands of fireball should go to you.

For feats...
Combat expertise will help you survive in flanking positions with the tanks, which will help all three (four if counting druid) of you maximize damage. Combat reflexes for extra AoOs.

Deft strike (CA) take a standard action spot check vs opponents AC. If you suceed, your next attack ignores armor and natural armor.

Deadeye shot (PHII) take a readied action to make a ranged attack as an allies attack lands. They lose their DEX bonus against your attack.

Telling blow (PHII) Gain SA damage on a crit.

Level 20 is nearly pointless for a rogue, save for skill points, and you could probably survive without level 19. You could take the ubiquitous two levels of fighter, or a level of monk and the asetic rogue feat. Going TWF and tempest will also crank up damage, and AC.


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## moritheil (May 15, 2007)

Jondor_Battlehammer said:
			
		

> With all the other classes you will be playing with, I would go with 14s across the board, and keep bumping your INT. Getting a +1 in one stat is not worth sacrificing +2 in two others. For a rogue, your skill list is your most important class feature, and the only one that really doesn't benefit from stat boosting items. Your tumble skill will let you use SA more often, which is where the meat of your damage will always come from. UMD will let you increase AoE damage done by your party. Any wands of fireball should go to you.




I'll respectfully disagree with this.  I see where Jondor is going - he suggests a jack-of-all-trades build.  IME, though, focusing on one or two abilities better enables you to contribute.  That is, either be a high-int, high-cha social skillmonkey and rely on UMD in fights, or go for decent int and very good dex to climb combat feat trees.



> Combat expertise will help you survive in flanking positions with the tanks, which will help all three (four if counting druid) of you maximize damage. Combat reflexes for extra AoOs.




The problem that rogues tend to have in play is that they can't hit the enemy at all without flanking them and getting the attack bonus (and denying dex.)  Combat Expertise is wasted because they can't afford to give up attack bonuses and still have a good shot at hitting the enemy.  Of course, this changes if you're playing a rogue/wizard or otherwise can ensure a boost to your attack roll.

Combat Reflexes is a good choice, though, particularly once your AOOs start adding SA.

Deft strike eats up a turn, which I don't like, but if you can't hit the enemy after the surprise round anyway, it's a good feat to have.

Deadeye shot is good when combined with Sniper Shot (assassin spell that allows SA at any distance.)


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## SadisticFishing (May 15, 2007)

Does Telling Blow really help that much? A dagger has a 19-20 crit range, and if you're not SA'ing, chances are you're trying to SA next round and won't be able to hurt them very much anyways...

Getting Brilliant Energy Weapons, when you can afford it, means you really don't need to go fighter for the bab, though I can see going 4 levels in and getting melee weapon mastery.. which doesn't apply to thrown daggers, which is bad.. 

Ranger/Rogue actually makes sense, in an odd way.. almost as many skill points, full BAB, and 2 free feats if you go 2 levels in.. But I dunno.

Hrm, so much to think about. Personally, I would do something like Rogue/Swashbuckler/Invisible Blade (Daring Outlaw), except the Swashbuckler levels don't give Hide/Move Silently as class skills, which could be annoying..


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## moritheil (May 15, 2007)

SadisticFishing said:
			
		

> Does Telling Blow really help that much? A dagger has a 19-20 crit range, and if you're not SA'ing, chances are you're trying to SA next round and won't be able to hurt them very much anyways...




You don't use it with daggers.  You use it with a rapier and take Improved Critical, then cast corrupt/bless weapon on it so that 1 out of every four attacks is an autoconfirmed critical (threat range 15-20) that you apply SA on.     UMD helps with this, but even at 0 ranks of UMD, a sacred scabbard is only 4400 gp and casts bless weapon 3/day.



> Getting Brilliant Energy Weapons, when you can afford it, means you really don't need to go fighter for the bab, though I can see going 4 levels in and getting melee weapon mastery.. which doesn't apply to thrown daggers, which is bad..




Conventional wisdom states that Brilliant Energy isn't worth the price.  YMMV.



> Hrm, so much to think about. Personally, I would do something like Rogue/Swashbuckler/Invisible Blade (Daring Outlaw), except the Swashbuckler levels don't give Hide/Move Silently as class skills, which could be annoying..




That's what Able Learner is for.


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## Mistwell (May 15, 2007)

Most people say that there are four basic [edit - combat] archetypes for rogue builds:

1) Two Weapon Fighting (more hits = more sneak attack damage)
2) Spring Attacking (distance = fewer hits on you = live longer)
3) Ranged (distance = fewer hits on you = live longer)
4) Reach (more flanking squares and AOOs = more attacks and sneak attacks)

I think you can build a strong rogue focusing on any of those four choices.  You can even combine some, like spring attacking reach, or two weapon fighting and ranged with thrown weapons like daggers or shurikens.

I agree Ranger 2/Rogue X makes some good sense (though not required for a good build).  The ranger two weapon fighting or rapid shot feat helps, as does the favored enemy (probably human, which is now allowed even if it is your race, regardless of alignment), two good saves, better hit die, full BAB progression, martial weapon and armor proficiency, spell list that lets you use wands of some very useful rogue-like spells, and even track.  Personally, I favor the Urban Ranger varient from Unearthed Arcana and Cityscape.


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## moritheil (May 15, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Most people say that there are four basic archetypes for rogue builds:
> 
> 1) Two Weapon Fighting (more hits = more sneak attack damage)
> 2) Spring Attacking (distance = fewer hits on you = live longer)
> ...




Er, those are all combat archetypes.  There are also the trapfinder, the UMD abuser, and the front man/intrigue archetype, none of which are particularly focused on combat.


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## Mistwell (May 15, 2007)

moritheil said:
			
		

> Er, those are all combat archetypes.  There are also the trapfinder, the UMD abuser, and the front man/intrigue archetype, none of which are particularly focused on combat.




I agree.  I was talking specifically about combat builds, and should have mentioned that.


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## IanB (May 15, 2007)

Jondor_Battlehammer said:
			
		

> Level 20 is nearly pointless for a rogue, save for skill points, and you could probably survive without level 19. You could take the ubiquitous two levels of fighter, or a level of monk and the asetic rogue feat. Going TWF and tempest will also crank up damage, and AC.




The main caveat I would insert here is that if you expect the game to go epic, you delay your epic bonus feat progression every time you take a level other than rogue (unless you're hitting level 10 in a prestige class with an epic progression of its own.) Granted, the rogue has a pretty slow epic bonus feat progression, but it is worth remembering in general.


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## SadisticFishing (May 15, 2007)

Yeah I very much doubt we're going epic, our attention span isn't - oooooh a plastic bag!!

.. >_>

Alright, see, dual wielding hand crossbows seems cool, but how do you consistently get sneak attack damage with a ranged weapon? There's Deadeye Shot, but you can't do that with DW...


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## Zaruthustran (May 16, 2007)

Dual wielding hand crossbows is fun in that you get two ranged attacks at 30' (as opposed to 10' with thrown daggers). 

But after that opening barrage, you're stuck. You've got to drop one crossbow to the floor in order to load the other one, and loading takes a Move action. Doh. And if you're going to be shooting a crossbow anyway, why not go with a light crossbow (1d8 vs 1d4)?

If you want a melee monster go rogue3/rng2/ftr4/nightsong enforcer. Layer up Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and the Spring Attack chain, and just smash things with a two-handed reach weapon. Wear armor spikes so you can TWF with that two-hander (using the 5' step to change range when needed mid-full attack). 

If you want a quick sneaky guy, go the spring attack route and stack rogue and scout. 

If you want an archer, mutliclass with Warlock. Your bad BAB won't matter if your ranged attacks are all touch attacks. For those cases where a full attack is better, use your bow. 

One note: since you've got a druid in the party, you have access to lots of animals (summons and companion). *Convince the druid to have his critters always grapple*. Each combatant in a grapple loses his Dex bonus, meaning you get to sneak attack. Grappling is a great idea for animals since they can't bypass DR without a spell buff--a spell buff that could be better spent on a real party member, or to summon more animals. 

-z


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## AnonymousOne (May 16, 2007)

dyx said:
			
		

> Invisible Blade



Umm bluff as a free action much?  Yes thank you!


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## Jack Simth (May 16, 2007)

SadisticFishing said:
			
		

> Alright, well, I have a close friend who's playing in the next campaign we're starting up. In the last one, he was a Warlock, and he looked to me for making him super powerful - and I failed =( .... Mostly because he didn't want to use my feat build, and partly because we didn't know how Metaspelllike feats worked, and because I'd never heard of Hellfire Warlock and didn't look very hard.
> 
> Anyways, this campaign, he is playing a simple CG Rogue, and I'm looking for ways to make him own.
> 
> ...



Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha?

I'll treat that as Fixed, for now.

I'll give you a Core build, just for grins
Taking that as-is....

1) Max ranks in UMD (at least until you can make the Use Wand check on a nat-1)
2) Max ranks in Tumble (until you reach the point where you can make the check for two opponents on natural 1's)
Feats:
1) Two-Weapon Fighting
H) Two-Weapon Defense
3) Quick Draw (or Weapon Finess)
6) Weapon Finess (or Quickdraw)
9) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12) Improved Initiative (or Combat Expertise)
15) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18) Combat Expertise (or Improved Initiative)

Some key items you'll want (in addition to the standard items, of course; potion of Invisibility, potion of Fly, item of Dimension Door/Teleport, extradimensional storeage, Gauntlets of Dexterity, Cloak of Resistence, and so on), in about order you'll want to pick them up (if you can get them sooner, go for it):
Two Shortswords
Bandolier to hold lots of flasks in quickdraw capable locations
Lots of Flasks of Acid
Lots of potions of Alchemist's Fire
Wand of Acid Splash
Wand of Chill Touch (highest caster level available)
Wand of Produce Flame (highest caster level available; Extended if possible; you want the Druid version)
Wand of Grease
Wand of Greater Invisibility

You've got a couple of basic strategies:

Flasks of Acid:
Thrown at a flat-footed opponent.  They're attacks, so they are sneak attack capable.  As thrown weapons, they automatically use your Dex modifier.  They're touch attacks, so your attack bonus mostly doesn't matter.  This gets tasty fast.  Slightly pricy, though; Flasks of Flasks of Acid 10 gp per attack market, but each attack expends one - period.  The splash damage is gravy, but do remember it.  They're expended when thrown, which is why you need Quick Draw.

Alchemist's Fire:
See Flasks of Acid, only they're 20 gp per attack.  They do an extra d6 of fire damage the next round, though.

Wand of Acid Splash:
It's a cantrip, caster level 1.  Mostly, it's used as a vehicle for your sneak attack when you'll only get one attack in anyway.  It's a touch attack, so you don't need to worry about your attack bonus too much.  Caster level 1, 7.5 gp/charge, market.

Wand of Chill Touch:
This spell is selected because it has multiple charges, based on caster level, with no limit.  You want at least as high a caster level on your wand as you get attacks in a round; ideally you'll want double that.  You can hold the charge indefinately, so they don't go wasted unless you find you need to touch something.  It's the melee version of Flasks of Acid - this is for when you're flanking.  1d6 touch attacks, with the potential for strength damage (DC 11, not likely, but possible).  If your DM permits, you two-weapon fight just with the Chill Touch charges; otherwise, you argue that you can use a shortsword in your other hand at no cost other than standard TWF penalties (seeing as how the energy isn't channeling through that hand) and two-weapon fight that way.  Market Price 15 gp/attack (due to the way charges work for the item, the price per attack is independant of caster level).  As an added bonus, this gives you something to do vs. undead (it's an easy will save DC 11, but when you're forcing several saves per round, well...).

Wand of Produce Flame:
See Wand of Chill Touch - as an added benefit, you can throw them.  Produce Flame is an Effect spell with a duration, so you don't need to worry about the clause of touching things discharging the spell regardless.  This means you can potentially have two of them running (one on each palm) or have a shortsword in your off hand without arguing with your DM too much.  15 gp per attack, but they come in groups and you can't hold them forever.

Wand of Grease:
There's this nifty clause in Grease - it forces Balance checks.  There's this nifty clause in the Balance skill: If you don't have at least five ranks in Balance, you're considered flat-footed when Balancing.  Almost nothing has actual ranks in Balance.  This makes many critters sneak-attackable after the first round without worrying about being in melee range for flanking.  Duration is one round/level.  

Wand of Greater Invisibility:
The use should be obvious enough - opponents are denied their Dexterity bonus to AC when they can't see you, opening them up for sneak attacks.

You've got three "elements" available - Acid, Fire, and Negative Energy.  Select one based on your opponent - most will usually be subject to at least one of them.  The shortswords are primarily backup weapons, don't invest in them too heavily.


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 16, 2007)

AnonymousOne said:
			
		

> Umm bluff as a free action much?  Yes thank you!




I tried invisible blade.  You don't get the bluff as a free action for a significant while, especially if you take 1-3 levels in fighter or swashbuckler first (which helps alot).  Feignting really isn't that good -- enemies add their BAB to the opposed roll, and most melee monsters have obscene BAB for their CR -- and can only be used in melee, where there are tons of other ways to get SA damage.  I was doing the TWF dagger rogue, and gave up after 2 or 3 levels in and went with master thrower.

I cannot praise that class enough!  Trip Shot lets you make every throw a trip attempt in addition to damage, plus you get to use dex instead of dtrength on the roll, plus I don't think you suffer any modifiers for size.  Of course, the level 5 ability for that class which makes your throws against touch AC is awesome, but not even needed, if you want more sneak attack.

Staggering Strike is a great feat for any rogue, as is Savvy Rogue.  Savvy Rogue improves rogue special abilities.  My personal favorites: Crippling Strike - deal the str damage even on creatures that can't be sneak attacked!; Opportunist - only limited by AOOs and once per opponent per round.  Mix in Crippling Strike and Staggering Strike for added sexiness.; Skill Mastery - Take 12!

For a ranged rogue not using throwing, the best advice I can give is to beg the DM to allow Quicker than the Eye from the 3.0 Song and Silence.  For a move action, you make a bluff check opposed by Spot.  If you win, your next attack that round is a sneak attack.  Sometimes, especially against high-DR enemies, it's worth giving up a full attack for that.  If your DM doesn't allow it, strive for a ring of blinking.  All attacks are sneak attacks, but 20% chance to auto-miss.  Finally, there are ranger and sor/wiz spells out there that let you do a ranged sneak attack at any distance for one round.  And I think there's a feat to get sneak attack on a favored enemy even if they couldn't normally be sneak attacked, so a one level dip into ranger for the ability to SA undead may be worth it.

For melee rogues, get a grapple buddy.  Have the summoner bring in flanking buddies.  Even better is Persistent Blade, a level 1 sor/wiz spell.  Does poor force damage (1d4 + 1/2 int or cha mod.), but it grants flanking to any ally who attacks the enemy.  Taking the Martial Study feat for Sudden Leap gives you an easy way to get into melee and full-attack, or full attakc and then safely retreat w/ a DC 15 tumble check (It lets you do a standing jump as a swift action).  There's a cheap pair of boots in MIC that likewise allow you to cheese the full attack / safe retreat goodness, this time by letting you take an extra 5 foot step 3 times a day.  Granted this is better for scouts, but still good.  If you don't need the boot slot for anything else, buy multiple pairs and change them between combats.

The most critical thing for rogues in general is to quickly find a way to avoid miss chances, as any miss chance at all kills SA.  There are level 1 spells that can do this!  If an archer rogue, a seeking bow is a quick fix.  The clarity of Vision skill trick can help for a round.


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 16, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Wand of Grease:
> There's this nifty clause in Grease - it forces Balance checks.  There's this nifty clause in the Balance skill: If you don't have at least five ranks in Balance, you're considered flat-footed when Balancing.  Almost nothing has actual ranks in Balance.  This makes many critters sneak-attackable after the first round without worrying about being in melee range for flanking.  Duration is one round/level.




Wow, I never noticed that!  Thanks!  I usually just put up a persistent balde for the party rogue, but I also know grease and have been looking for new ways to use it.  Also, his nasty full attack plus me sculpting the grease into four cubes should be awesome!

Also, as for his ability scores, I'm pretty sure those were just the numbers, to be arranged as he sees fit.  I'd go with as many 14's as possible.  After 14, the point buy gets more expensive, and Rogues have serious MAD anyway.  I'm actually starting to think they have it worse than monks if you want to both do social skills and combat (Of course the standard search, disable, open lock, etc... are expected from the party no matter what direction you want to go).


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## Darklone (May 16, 2007)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Dual wielding hand crossbows is fun in that you get two ranged attacks at 30' (as opposed to 10' with thrown daggers).
> 
> But after that opening barrage, you're stuck. You've got to drop one crossbow to the floor in order to load the other one, and loading takes a Move action. Doh. And if you're going to be shooting a crossbow anyway, why not go with a light crossbow (1d8 vs 1d4)?



Something I posted in another thread... Rapid Reload is what you need, then you don't have to change the Xbows. 
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3524775&postcount=19

Far Shot is actually worth it for double handXbows... yet I'd rather go Rgr/Sco/Rog human with Swift Ambusher and Swift Hunter (to sneak attack pesky undead). You're pretty flexible, full attack actions hurt if your Dex is high enough and you got the mentioned wands, even if you don't get to sneak attack. And if someone tries to grap you in melee, you can still move away and enjoy your Skirmish damage.

The real shooter is a ftr4/rogX with Weapon Spec... at least that way you can take all the feats you need. Daring Outlaw plus Daring Warrior with Swashbuckler3 and 4 fighter levels (rest rogue) is nice as well... some good sneak attack damage and still Ranged Weapon Mastery!


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## moritheil (May 16, 2007)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> One note: since you've got a druid in the party, you have access to lots of animals (summons and companion). *Convince the druid to have his critters always grapple*. Each combatant in a grapple loses his Dex bonus, meaning you get to sneak attack. Grappling is a great idea for animals since they can't bypass DR without a spell buff--a spell buff that could be better spent on a real party member, or to summon more animals.




But then you wind up having to have lengthy arguments over whether or not your SA applies to the animal when you roll poorly and hit it.    

Oh, and Animal Growth can't really be spent on PCs in most groups . . .


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## IanB (May 16, 2007)

moritheil said:
			
		

> But then you wind up having to have lengthy arguments over whether or not your SA applies to the animal when you roll poorly and hit it.




Only if you're using a ranged weapon, which is not a popular rogue choice in my experience, OOTS notwithstanding.


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## Jack Simth (May 16, 2007)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Wow, I never noticed that!  Thanks!  I usually just put up a persistent balde for the party rogue, but I also know grease and have been looking for new ways to use it.  Also, his nasty full attack plus me sculpting the grease into four cubes should be awesome!



Be warned: Different DM's will interpert it differently.  Many will look at it and say "oh, you're balancing whenever you're land-bound in a greased area" and this will really help out the ranged rogue (ideal case for the tactic).  Others will limit it to when the critter is actively making a balance check - that is, when moving in the greased area (so basically only grants sneak attack on an AoO caused by movement - nonideal case for the tactic).  Know which way your DM will go before investing too heavily in the tactic.

Don't worry about it too much, though - combat-damage-wise, the Rogue is balanced around getting sneak attack on every attack.


			
				StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Also, as for his ability scores, I'm pretty sure those were just the numbers, to be arranged as he sees fit.  I'd go with as many 14's as possible.  After 14, the point buy gets more expensive, and Rogues have serious MAD anyway.  I'm actually starting to think they have it worse than monks if you want to both do social skills and combat (Of course the standard search, disable, open lock, etc... are expected from the party no matter what direction you want to go).



If you focus your rogue around your stats, almost any set will do.  High Dex?  Two-weapon fighting and stealth.  High Charisma?  Social rogue and UMD.  High Int?  Massive skill monkey.  High Strength?  Meh, happens.  There had to be a bad set in there somewhere.  High Con?  Everyone loves high Con.  You can make an effective rogue with an Int of 6, a Strength of 6, or a Charisma of 6 without too much difficulty.  Wisdom is a bit more painful, but only because of the low Will saves to begin with (that, and Spot/Listen - but with a Druid in the party, that shouldn't be an issue).  A low Con is a problem for EVERYBODY, and if you multiclass with a few levels of Fighter, Paladin, or Cleric (for the armor proficiency), you can get away with a lower Dex.  

It's only when you try to be the everything rogue that you have a case of MAD.


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## Mistwell (May 16, 2007)

In my opinion, Wis is often a dump stat or second to dump stat for a Rogue.  Magic items and feats can make up for the will save, and you have lots of skill points to make up for the lack of a bonus to the wis skills.  It doesn't help any of your key abilities, so I would not rank it high.  I would rank Strength higher than Wis for example.


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## Dheran (May 17, 2007)

Here are things I *recommend against*:
Using daggers, except with skill tricks.  The damage is low, the threat range is mediocre, and the range increment is insufficient.
Taking _Improved Critical_.  Get a _keen_ weapon, or have a spellcaster provide _Keen Edge_ periodically.
Walking around without a ranged weapon ready to fire.  With a good _Spot_ and high DEX the Rogue is unlikely to be surprised, so you _really_ want to maximize your chance to hit for sneak attack damage when an opponent is flat-footed at the start of an encounter.
Spending your skill points so you succeed at crucial skills on a rolled 1.  Instead you take _Skill Mastery_ at level 10, effectively giving you 9 extra skill points for *every* skill you master.
Taking _Combat Expertise_.  This is a sucky idea for a Rogue, because your BAB isn't high enough.
Trying to improve your STR for more damage.  You've got _much_ more potential to add damage with sneak attack, so you should optimize sneak attack and *make STR your dump stat*.
Tripping.  This requires both STR and extra feats to pull off, things a Rogue doesn't have enough of.
Taking _Dodge_ and/or _Mobility_.  The only time I'd do this is if I'm planning to take *both* _Spring Attack_ and the Shadowdancer PrC -- and even then, I'll get _Mobility_ as an armor enhancement rather than waste a feat.
Buying elemental enhancements for your weapon.  This piddling extra damage is worth much less than what you'll get with sneak attack, and you don't get to roll sneak attack dice if you don't hit.  Get your primary weapon up to +5 as fast as you can afford it.
OK, here are things I *favor*.

Get your initiative high.  _Improved Initiative_ is a reasonable choice, but you can also investigate magical ways of getting a futher initiative boost.  Flat-footed opponents are your best chance to sneak attack.
Take _Craven_ (in _Champions of Ruin_) to add 1 point per character level to your sneak attack damage.  This feat investment keeps paying dividends.
Buy the Augment Crystals that let you sneak attack constructs and undead (_Magic Item Compendium_ pages 65-66).
Get a flanking partner.  You both get +2 to hit, and sneak attack makes a Rogue happy.
Mobility -- the real stuff, not that sucky feat -- is good for you.  Get your base speed up as high as you can.  _Use Magic Device_ can let you cast _Alter Self_ to turn into a Varag (60' base speed and _Run_ as a racial bonus feat), and _Expeditious Retreat_ (giving a further 30' enhancement).  Get into flanking position, or out of harm's way, fast!
Being unseen is also good for you.  _Improved Invisibility_ is the obvious choice, but you can also combine _Darkness_ and _Ebon Eyes_ to the same end, and the combo works against enemies with _See Invisibility_.  If they can't see but you can, you get to sneak attack.
If you're going to multiclass, the best payoff for a Rogue is from a single level of Cloistered Cleric: 3 domains with their granted powers, only 2 fewer skill points than a Rogue gets, two good saves that exactly fill in the Rogue's weak spots, and spells!


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## Darklone (May 17, 2007)

Dheran has some good points but don't forget that daggers are among the most versatile weapons in the game... and Invisible blade plus Master Thrower is a nice daggerfightercombo.


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## Raspen (May 18, 2007)

make a goblin rogue named Chunky Discharge give him a spiked guntlet and the improved lowblow feat

MAX REP DAMAGE!!!


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## Quartz (May 18, 2007)

Here's another alternative: monk + rogue. Good saves, high speed, sneak attack + flurry, special abilities.


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## Darklone (May 18, 2007)

Quartz said:
			
		

> Here's another alternative: monk + rogue. Good saves, high speed, sneak attack + flurry, special abilities.



And then there's the Ascetic Rogue feat that grants full unarmed strike progression and the most impressive Stunning Fist DC (assuming Ability Focus).


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## Particle_Man (May 18, 2007)

You could also do Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler X with a feat from Complete Soundrel that lets you count Swashbuckler levels for the purpose of sneak attack.

BAB 19 (that is 4 primary iterative attacks right there!) and Sneak Attack 10d6+int damage, and I think there is an alt feature for Swashbuckler that lets you take advantage of AC while using 2 weapons.


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## Darklone (May 18, 2007)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> You could also do Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler X with a feat from Complete Soundrel that lets you count Swashbuckler levels for the purpose of sneak attack.
> 
> BAB 19 (that is 4 primary iterative attacks right there!) and Sneak Attack 10d6+int damage, and I think there is an alt feature for Swashbuckler that lets you take advantage of AC while using 2 weapons.



Wow, I didn't mention Daring Outlaw or Daring Warrior yet? Unbelievable.

That alternate Swashy feature is kinda lame... It gives a shield bonus instead of the dodge bonus and it's by one higher. Get Imp Buckler Defense.


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## SadisticFishing (May 18, 2007)

Yeah, Daring Outlaw and Ascetic Monks are both things I've done already  They're kinda cool, but for Outlaw losing hide/move silently as class skills isn't good.


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## Particle_Man (May 19, 2007)

SadisticFishing said:
			
		

> Yeah, Daring Outlaw and Ascetic Monks are both things I've done already  They're kinda cool, but for Outlaw losing hide/move silently as class skills isn't good.




But that's why they are so daring!  

http://www.partiallyclips.com/index.php?id=1484


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## Vysirez (May 19, 2007)

SadisticFishing said:
			
		

> Yeah, Daring Outlaw and Ascetic Monks are both things I've done already  They're kinda cool, but for Outlaw losing hide/move silently as class skills isn't good.




Play a human with able learner.


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## AnonymousOne (May 19, 2007)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Feignting really isn't that good -- enemies add their BAB to the opposed roll



Damn ... I forgot about that.


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## Darklone (May 19, 2007)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> http://www.partiallyclips.com/index.php?id=1484



Can someone explain the joke to me? Is this one of the strange things about French people only Americans seem to believe?


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## Mistwell (May 19, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Can someone explain the joke to me? Is this one of the strange things about French people only Americans seem to believe?




It's Three Musketeers.


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## Darklone (May 19, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> It's Three Musketeers.



I still don't get it.


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## Mistwell (May 19, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> I still don't get it.




Hey don't blame us. Alexandre Dumas (a French writer) wrote the Three Musketeers (which takes place in France), and he is the one that wrote them to be sneaky guys who just happen to wear outfits that are not conducive to sneaking whatsoever.

That's it.  That is the entire joke.  It's not an Americanism.  It's just making fun of how the Three Musketeers were supposed to be both stealthy and outrageously dressed like peacocks while undertaking such stealth.


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## Particle_Man (May 19, 2007)

I believe the idea is that, in the stories of  The Three Musketeers (set in France), style matters and fashion matters.  Thus, lurking in the shadows while dressed in black would be more effective, but you would be unfashionable and nonstylish to do so, therefore it would not even be considered by a musketeer to be appropriate to lurk in the shadows unless one was dressed in the fashionable clothing of the day.  If you like, it would be a convention of the stories, just as *no one* recognizing that Clark Kent looks like Superman in glasses is a convention of comic books.

The joke then comes from the woman observing this realizing that it is ineffective to lurk in the shadows while dressed that way.  In a way, she is giving the modern view that style and fashion must be trumped by efficiency.  The incongruity between the two experessed viewpoints, modern and Musketeer, generates humour in some observers of the comic strip in question.


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## Darklone (May 20, 2007)

Hmm. I rather think a guy in black in an alley would be suspicious. Seeing someone clad in nice clothes would probably just lead to assume you that he relieved himself. Much less suspicious than a ninja.


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## SadisticFishing (May 20, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Hmm. I rather think a guy in black in an alley would be suspicious. Seeing someone clad in nice clothes would probably just lead to assume you that he relieved himself. Much less suspicious than a ninja.




But you don't actually see the ninja, which is the point...

Wow, this strayed off topic  Guess that's all the info I'm getting eh


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## Particle_Man (May 20, 2007)

Well, I guess you learned that to min/max your rogue you should wear dark clothing to more efficiently hide in shadows.  

I believe the "Shadow" enhancement on some light armor would do the trick.


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## Unkabear (May 20, 2007)

If you are set on getting yourself into Melee I would suggest the spiked chain and the vexing flanker/adaptable flanker rout.  You can choose to count any space that you threaten as the space you are considered for a flank from.  With the spiked chain this opens a great deal of space, and you don't have to even be behind the opponent.  

Personally I am in the ranged rogue rout.  point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus xbow, xbow sniper, rapid reload and dead eye shot and you are set.  SA with a xbow from 60' away places you well out of range of danger.  the Dead Eye Shot is mainly for when you just can't get your full attack in or SA, Many a game have we let our fighter chip away at a monster just to have my rogue follow up with a SA and finish the creature.

Telling blow is nice if you can get a keen rapier but then you have to get close to your opponent, and Rogues don't tend to have the high armor/hp of the fighter.  Things that keep you off the front line are your best friend.  UMD, UMD, UMD.  A Wand of Improved Invisibility and a wand of (Ray of your choice) can make that rogue a very deadly opponent...but then again the Improved Invis rogue with xbow sniper and rapid reload is nasty as well.

Ranged Skill Monkey Rogue is IMO the best rout, but everybody has their preferences.


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## mcgeedis (May 21, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Most people say that there are four basic [edit - combat] archetypes for rogue builds:
> 
> 1) Two Weapon Fighting (more hits = more sneak attack damage)
> 2) Spring Attacking (distance = fewer hits on you = live longer)
> ...





I have a character who is currently a Changeling Rogue 5/Fighter 1/Warshaper 2.  She kind of fell into my lap with this format, but, I gotta say that if you can incorporate Warshaper* into a Rogue someway, then do it.  Not only do you get the +4 to Con _and_ Ste, but you also get reach and fast healing.  And instead of Two Weapon Fighting, how does Multi-Attack sound with your new natural weapons?   Talk about being an assassin!  Natural weaponry while being masterfully disguised?  So, you would fulfill #1 and #4 of the above with other awesome perks (such as +4 to con = live even longer).

If I would've had more time to think about my Rogue character, I would've probably gone Druid perhaps (since I have a penchant for combat over skills).  But, being a Changeling was superior due to the fact that you are almost always shapechanged and you don't have to sacrifice rogue levels.  Lastly, you can really skill it out from a Diplomacy/Bluff/Disguise perspective.  

*For those not familiar with Warshaper, you need to have some type of shapechanging ability and many of the class abilities are only effective if you are in a shapechanged form.


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## Darklone (May 21, 2007)

SadisticFishing said:
			
		

> But you don't actually see the ninja, which is the point...
> 
> Wow, this strayed off topic  Guess that's all the info I'm getting eh



Yah well...

You don't see the ninja because he wears clothes like anyone else... like that guy in the alley.


			
				Unkabear said:
			
		

> Personally I am in the ranged rogue rout.  point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus xbow, xbow sniper, rapid reload and dead eye shot and you are set.  SA with a xbow from 60' away places you well out of range of danger.  the Dead Eye Shot is mainly for when you just can't get your full attack in or SA, Many a game have we let our fighter chip away at a monster just to have my rogue follow up with a SA and finish the creature.
> 
> Telling blow is nice if you can get a keen rapier but then you have to get close to your opponent, and Rogues don't tend to have the high armor/hp of the fighter.



Is Telling Blow restricted to melee?? Don't have the book here right now. If not, handcrossbows rock.


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## Particle_Man (May 21, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Yah well...
> 
> You don't see the ninja because he wears clothes like anyone else... like that guy in the alley.




For a counter-example I present exhibit A.  Note the colour of the clothing of the ninja in panel 4.   

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html

BTW, I am aware that ninjas in OOTS can wear other colours too, but they certainly don't dress "just like everybody else, like that guy in the alley".


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## Darklone (May 21, 2007)

Looks like my campaigns are too realistic


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## Jack Simth (May 21, 2007)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> For a counter-example I present exhibit A.  Note the colour of the clothing of the ninja in panel 4.
> 
> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html
> 
> BTW, I am aware that ninjas in OOTS can wear other colours too, but they certainly don't dress "just like everybody else, like that guy in the alley".



If you're specifically going for actual hiding, yeah, you might wear an outfit to arrange to blend into the shadows.

That's not how RL ninjas typically worked, however.  

They used Disguise.

Approach the dojo dressed up as a peasant, possibly carrying the normal shipment of rice (and there's actual rice in there if it's checked).  

Quietly and forcibly exchange clothes with one of the guards (if you cannot secure a guard's uniform in advance).

Play the role of the guards for a while until you can get close enough to the target without arousing suspicion.

Kill target, leave no witnesses.  This is ideally done while you're alone with the target somewhere a person could plausibly come through the window.  Also works if you can kill all witnesses.  

Make up some plausible tale about a guy dressed in black escaping through the window to give to your "fellow guards".

Leave in the same manner you came in.

It's not about hiding, it's about looking like you belong.


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## AnonymousOne (May 21, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Is Telling Blow restricted to melee?? Don't have the book here right now. If not, handcrossbows rock.



Telling Blow applies to Ranged and Melee weapons.  What's the crit on a hand crossbow?


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## SadisticFishing (May 22, 2007)

I knew that about ninjas, but, see, they also don't lurk in alleyways.

Ascetic Rogue is probably the most melee damaging build so far (Monk 2/Rogue 18), and it works, but you need to start as a monk and that's not what he wants...


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## Darklone (May 22, 2007)

Ascetic Monk removes the multiclass penalties on monk levels... so no problem with multiclassing. Max Stunning Fist, rocks for monk/rogues.

Telling Blow: 
Handcrossbows have a 19-20/*2 threat range... better than bows for that feat.

Jack Simth: That's why that comic confused me... I'm thinking too realistic about ninjas for many gamers.


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## Ed Gentry (May 22, 2007)

Someone already mentioned it, but I cannot sing the praises of Staggering Strike highly enough. It is devastating even at mid-levels.


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## Raspen (May 23, 2007)

im telling you make a goblin and keep punching peeps in the ...... well use the improved lowblow feat.
MAX REP DAMAGE
add stagering strike and crippling strike for effect and get some skill in perform wit/heckler


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