# Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

Greetings all, this is Edena_of_Neith.
  I'm back in the Hobby after 7 years.
  2 days ago I bought the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and Magic of Incarnum.  Yesterday I bought Unearthed Arcana.  

  Now, I am a person mired deeply in the old thinking.  I played 1st edition and 2nd edition from 1977 through 1998.  That's 23 years of old style playing!
  I did not read the rules of 3rd edition, and I knew virtually nothing of them until a few days ago.

  Now I am intensively reading through these books, and a lot of things are jumping out at me.
  I wanted to comment on them, and ask questions, if nobody minds.
  Yes, the rest of you did all this 5 years ago, when 3.0 came out in 2000, but I'm afraid I'm late.

  Mind if I do this here?


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## Jdvn1 (Dec 5, 2005)

Go ahead!


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## wingsandsword (Dec 5, 2005)

Bring it on, I think we'd all be glad to answer your questions, or discuss any points.


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## Thotas (Dec 5, 2005)

Ask away, it's a large part of why we're all here, after all!


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Greetings all, this is Edena_of_Neith.
> I'm back in the Hobby after 7 years.
> 2 days ago I bought the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and Magic of Incarnum.  Yesterday I bought Unearthed Arcana.
> 
> ...




My good friend Edena proves that there is yet hope for Diaglo.


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## Napftor (Dec 5, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> My good friend Edena proves that there is yet hope for Diaglo.




I doubt that very much.


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## Particle_Man (Dec 5, 2005)

Gotta admit, I am curious to see someone's opinion of Incarnum who has not previously been exposed to 3.0/3.5 for years.


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## Steel_Wind (Dec 5, 2005)

Awaits serve with racquet in hand...


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## ajanders (Dec 5, 2005)

*Welcome back!*

The pretzels are by your Comfy Gaming Chair (TM) and your dice are waiting...

Speak.  Demand.  We'll answer.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

Comments:

  It seems like 3.5 strength 40-41 is about the same as 2nd edition strength 25.
  And 3.5 str 22 is about the same as 2E strength 18/00.
  That by the chart on page 8.  About str 26 and 38, if you go by the chart on page 162.

  Wizards have an immediate advantage in 3.5.  They are not limited to how many spells per level they can know.  The other part:  the 10 + spell level requirement for Intelligence seems similar to 2nd edition.  I realize Sorcerers and Bards do it differently in 3.5:  just commenting on the wizard.

  I would have thought the Tarrasque would have had a constitution in the 50s, not of 34.  Just a thought.

  The idea of increasing ability scores once per 4 levels would have been a cherished dream in 2nd edition.  It was all but impossible to increase ability scores in the older editions.
  And ability scores above 18 (in a few cases 19) were impossible without very powerful magic.  Now, you can just ... have it.  Start with an elf with 19 dexterity, go from there (actually, start with an elf of 20 dexterity, because they get a + 2 to dexterity, and they aren't capped at 19 at the start.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

I gotta admit, the half-orc barbarian is scary (well, ok, all the 1st edition barbarians were scary, but add in nasty half-orcs and that's scary!  Krusk is not someone I'd want to mess with.)
  I see they gave elves the Reverie ability from the Complete Book of Elves 2nd Edition as a standard ability in 3.5:  the ability to lay in a trance for 4 hours.  Elves no longer have infravision ... that's a major weakening of the race (it's DARK in a forest at night!  Been there.)

  Now any race can become any class or multiclass.  But Favored Classes are important, and would seem to represent a holdover from the classic conceptions of the races from older editions.  I mean, dwarves were always good fighters, elves loved magic, halflings were natural rogues, and so on.

  I note that you can be proficient with all Simple and Martial Weapons if you are a fighter, or certain other classes.  THAT is a huge strengthening of the fighter class:  imagine had many Weapon Proficiencies you would have had to take in 2nd Edition to gain proficiency in all those weapons!
  The Bastard Sword (a favorite weapon if ever there was one) is an Exotic Weapon, though.  WOTC is teasing us with that one.    (You can use it two-handed normally, but must take a Feat to use it one handed.  Fair enough.  Nothing like wielding a 4 1/2 foot long weapon with one wrist ...)

  (chuckles)  
  Dwarves have wider heads than humans.  Elves have longer heads than humans (illustrations pages 14 and 16.)  Halflings have much longer heads than humans, relative to their size (page 20) and it gives them a feral aspect in my opinion.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

If I missed anything outstanding so far, tell me.  My powers of observation are not that good.  And I welcome any input.
  It's a 300 page book.  I'll take a lot of posts for me to make all my comments and questions on a book of this size (but, after all, you need to know this book to play.  I would argue that players and the DM alike need to know this book by rote, if possible.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

Gnomes look a lot like overgrown fey of the leprechaun/grig type.
  One look at a 3.5 gnome, and you know you have trouble.

  No more will elves with infravision sneak up on the clumsy half-orcs!
  Now, it's the wily half-orcs who will sneak up on the elves ...

  I see that is is MUCH HARDER now for ANY character or monster to make his saving throw.
  No more 'I only need a 2' statements!
  You only advance in meaningful terms in one type of saving throw:  the others are just messy.  (When you are 20th level and you only have a 8 to 11 saving throw against 2/3rds of the types of incoming attacks ... well, I think the 20th level character in question would be panicking, back in 2E.  By 14, I mean a base save of 14 to 17 - 6 (+ 6 on the 3.5 charts.)
  So yes, all the spells (or nearly all) in 3.5 allow saving throws now.  But does it matter?  You're still going to die, unless the spell or power hits your one good save category.

  So let me get this right:

  A 20th level fighter gets 4 attacks with his good hand.  One is at + 20 to hit (what you call Base Attack Bonus), one is at + 15, one is at + 10, and one is at + 5.
  That 20th level fighter also gets ONE attack with his off-hand, at + 20 to hit.
  But if he uses that one off-hand attack, he is at - 6 to all attacks with his good hand, and - 10 to all attacks with his off-hand.

  The 20th level wizard gets 2 attacks with his good hand, at BAB + 10 and + 5.
  The 20th level wizard can take 1 attack with his off-hand at BAB + 10 (but the penalties of - 6 and - 10 apply.)

  Do the dexterity bonuses cancel out any of the - 6 / - 10 penalties?
  That is, if I had a character with a 19 dexterity (the infamous elf ...) would his penalties drop at once to - 2 / - 6 because there is a + 4 bonus for 19 dexterity?

  They gave the monk a d8 for hit points??!!  HOORAY.  The poor monk has been underpowered since he was first introduced in 1st edition.


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## Terwox (Dec 5, 2005)

You might wanna try the rules forums if you get any funkier questions than this, although, the rules forum is more nitty-gritty stuff than this.  But heck, you've been around, you know these things, this is prolly the best place!

Wizards are somewhat limited in how much it costs to buy more spells than the two you automatically learn per level.  They're also limited by scribing costs and spellbook size costs.  Further limited by the DM not making spell-scrolls available, if they're so inclined.

You'll still have situations where you "only need a two" to make a save... but yeah, unless they compensate, characters will have some bad saves in some areas.  Cloak of resistance+5, save feats if you have feats to spare as a fighter, +4 stat bonus items, etc, will make it easier.

yeah, 20th level fighter, no feats, all stats = 10, one weapon:  20/15/10/5, two unbalanced weapons:  14/9/4/-1 main hand, 10 off-hand.  

Dex doesn't cancel out the penalties.  The ambidexterity feat cancels the penalties.

Might wanna check the rogue's gallery for some high level characters with normal gear amounts?  You'll get less theoretical numbers there... well, might be hit or miss.  I don't recall seeing many typical high level characters there, either.

Favored class isn't THAT important because prestige classes don't count for class levels.  

Anyway, glad to hear you bought the books, I always enjoy your posts.


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## FireLance (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> So let me get this right:
> 
> A 20th level fighter gets 4 attacks with his good hand.  One is at + 20 to hit (what you call Base Attack Bonus), one is at + 15, one is at + 10, and one is at + 5.
> That 20th level fighter also gets ONE attack with his off-hand, at + 20 to hit.
> ...



Yes, this is basically correct. Note that other bonuses and penalties to attack rolls may apply, e.g. bonuses for high Strength, bonuses from magic weapons, bonuses from a bard's Inspire Courage ability, etc.



> Do the dexterity bonuses cancel out any of the - 6 / - 10 penalties?
> That is, if I had a character with a 19 dexterity (the infamous elf ...) would his penalties drop at once to - 2 / - 6 because there is a + 4 bonus for 19 dexterity?



No, but a character can take the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (feats are a new concept - check the PHB chapter) to reduce the penalties to -4/-4 with two one-handed weapons or -2/-2 if at least one of the weapons he uses is light. The feat requires a minimum Dexterity of 15, so the idea that high-Dexterity characters are better at fighting with two weapons is still retained.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

(chuckles)

  I see you Don't Get To Outrun the Big, Bad, Barbarian (mages, take note!)  
  Heh, start a barbarian with 12 hit points, add 4 for an 18 constitution, then Rage and gain 2 more.  18 hit points.  Not bad.
  Then add that Diehard Feat where you can function at negative hit points.
  THAT'S who I want in the front of the party, defending my cleric!  (And I see that clerics have an orison that stops the barbarian from dying from going to negative hit points, based on what I've read further on in the book.  The cleric starts with 3 of those, too.)

  I like the Uncanny Dodge ability of the barbarian a lot.  It seems from reading further that everyone gets caught Flat-Footed, typically, but not anyone with Uncanny Dodge.  So the barbarian will start the fight with full Dex bonuses.
  If you're not wearing armor (and from reading further on it seems wearing armor in 3.5 is quite onerous) then you're dead, if caught Flat Footed with no dexterity bonus to AC.

  Trap sense is fine, but I can't see a barbarian messing around with traps.  That's for the rogue to do ...

  Improved Uncanny Dodge:  Wolf-Pack Tactics will no longer work on the barbarian ...

  Damage Reduction:  LOL.  I punch the barbarian!  I do 3 points of damage.  DM:  No, you do NO damage.  But the Big, Bad Barbarian is now mad.  You can't outrun him, so I suggest you find an immediate, inventive way of ... placating him?

  Greater Rage:  If what I am reading is true, a 20th level barbarian using Greater Rage, who had an 18 constitution before using Greater Rage, would gain 60 hit points.  That is because the hit point bonus at 18 con is + 4, but the hit point bonus at 24 con is + 7, and the barbarian gains 6 points of con from his Greater Rage.  Multiply 3 times 20 levels, and you have 60 hit points.

  Indomitable Will:  I would have said that a + 4 wouldn't mean that much to a 14th level barbarian.  But considering the new saving throws, it literally doubles his saving throw bonus.

  Tireless Rage:  So Fatigue causes - 2 to Strength and Dexterity, right?  That alters BAB, damage rolls, and AC normally, right?  They are all penalized?

  Mighty Rage:  It seems to me this would give the 20th level barbarian an extra 80 hit points (4 hit points per level, because an increase of 8 to constitution equals + 4 to hit points.)  Correct?

  And ... just WHAT are Krusk's wrists made out of?  Solid steel?  I doubt I could even PICK UP that giant axe, much less hold it upright in one hand!  LOL.  I wouldn't want to arm wrestle that guy.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

(embarrassed look)

  What does funky (or funkier) mean?  Someone mentioned it above.

  I'll go to the Rules Forum is that is what everyone wants.

  Back in 2nd edition and 1st edition, the poor mage only got 1 new spell free at each level.  Anything else had to be bought or swapped with the players (and in 1st edition, it was made clear that you had to make it an unholy nightmare for wizards to try to buy spells from NPCs.)

  What you said confirmed a question:  The person gets a BAB with his off-hand (for that one attack allowed with the off-hand) equal to his best BAB with his good hand.  Of course, there is the - 6 / - 10 penalty ... no big thing ... 

  Are you SURE that Dexterity bonuses in no way affect the penalties for two-weapon fighting (or otherwise employing the off-hand) ?  In 1st and 2nd edition, they did.

  Ambidexterity?  There go the drow again 

  I will look at the Rogue's Gallery.  But first I have to know things well enough that I'm not reading gibberish, and I'm not to that point yet.  (I see the numbers, but what the numbers mean are another matter.)

  I will hold off on prestige classes.  I'm just starting on CLASSES right now.  

  And thanks for the compliment.  Cheers, Terwox!  

  Yours Truly
  Edena_of_Neith


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## FireLance (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Tireless Rage:  So Fatigue causes - 2 to Strength and Dexterity, right?  That alters BAB, damage rolls, and AC normally, right?  They are all penalized?



Almost right - a penalty to Strength changes your attack bonus, but it doesn't change your Base Attack Bonus.



> I'll go to the Rules Forum is that is what everyone wants.



I am not a moderator, but I think it's fine to stay here. From what I've seen, this thread is mostly about your impressions on the 3.5e system after a 7-year hiatus. We don't need to trouble the rules gurus if you have a few basic questions along the way.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

Ah, thanks, FireLance.  
  I now have double confirmation that Dexterity doesn't help with two-weapon fighting.  Finis that 2nd edition rule.  Indeed, it's really hard it seems in 3.5 to conduct two-weapon fighting.

  Yeah, I see about BAB.  That's similar to the old charts for the base THAC0 for classes in 1st and 2nd edition.  That never changes.  But strength penalties can cause temporary to hit penalties.

  Yeah, I see about BAB.  That's similar to the old charts for the base THAC0 for classes in 1st and 2nd edition.  That never changes.  But strength penalties can cause temporary to hit penalties.
  I guess in 3.5 they call that an Attack Bonus penalty.  Official terminology, no?  And there is no such thing as a Base Attack Bonus penalty, I'm guessing.  Just making sure of the wording here.


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## wingsandsword (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I'll go to the Rules Forum is that is what everyone wants.



You don't have to go there, some of us might not be as skilled with the number crunching, but we certainly can help you.

A lot of the things may look one way on paper, but in play it comes out another.  Coming straight from AD&D, some things might look odd compared side-by-side, but when all put together 3.5 works quite well.  

As for "make that save on a two", it can come up with high-level foes against low-level threats (don't forget that effects from magic items use the saving throws based on their creator, not their user), so a Wand of Sleep could have a DC of 11 (for randomly generated items, the game assumes the minimum ability score to cast the spell, so 10+1+0 for a 1st level spell cast by a 11 Int Wizard), which is "Don't roll a 2" to a mid-level Cleric or Druid.

Like the saving throws, don't forget that you get bonuses from ability scores to all of them.  Constitution gives you a bonus to Fortitude, Wisdom to Will, and Dexterity to Reflex, plus feats and racial abilities that can augment them, plus magic items and class abilities.  3e can be a bit of an adding game to count in all the various bonuses you may get.

In practice saving throws are much the same as other editions, especially at lower and mid levels.  Saving Throws could be incredibly difficult if the threat is way out of your league (Bahamut's breath weapon is DC 50 IIRC), or incredibly minor (like a Sleep wand), it all scales with level.

As for attack bonuses, remember things like feats (Weapon Focus), Strength bonus, weapon enchantments, class abilities, and all the other things that add on.

The Wizard known spells per level thing really isn't an issue.  They still are limited in how many they can cast, and as was said they still have to buy/research all those spells, and carry copies of them around.  It really doesn't unbalance the Wizard.

Yeah, two-weapon fighting is hard to do, because it's pretty powerful.  It's typically best left to characters who are going to specialize in it (like some Rangers) or when it would be better to get lots of attacks in instead of fewer attacks which are more likely to hit (like taking on lots of weak foes).


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

A bard's magic comes from his heart?  I realize that's a metaphor, but are they saying that a bard's magic comes, then, from a fundamentally different source than that of the wizard and sorcerer?  The bard taps a different power source?  Just asking ... (looks embarrassed again)

  A bard's magic comes from his soul?  Do they mean this literally?  (It's a straight question:  there is no reason why a person or a person's soul could not be the repository of overwhelming power.  But if so, it has roleplaying and character building implications.)

  Can someone outline a more definitive example of how a bard summons magic?  (I mean, they could have said a bard evokes magic from his music, but they did not.  They said a bard draws magic from his soul, then emotes it through music or in other ways.  That is something totally different.  I'm nitpicking, sorry ... but it is crucial to character development and roleplaying.)

  I see they kept, to some extent, the idea of Bardic Colleges.

  Crazy as this sounds, I get this overwhelming impression that gnomes would make the best bards.  (EDIT: Looking back in curiosity, I see that bard is the favored class of gnome ...)

  Bards have two good saving throw categories.  A major plus (seems like a MAJOR plus.)
  Bards stink, as usual, in spellcasting.  But, it's no worse than 2nd edition from what I remember.  The bonus spells allowed in 3.5 do make a difference here, for the bard.
  If bardic spells are based on Charisma, they definitely come from a different power source than the wizard's, and they are not at all cast in the same way!  Just my opinion.

  I remember the 1st level bard from 1st edition.  He was a 7th level fighter and a 7th level thief.  He had a ton of hit points.  Now he has a d6 for hit points.  How the bard has come down (but then again, everyone won't be running in terror when the bard plays something out of tune, someone throws an orange and it splatters all over the bard's face, and then the bard gets up and ...)

  I see the bard stinks with weapons relative to the other fighting classes in 3.5 (but, in 2nd edition to be proficient with all 'simple' weapons would be an overwhelming advantage.)  He also has the long sword and short bow, and many would say that is all he needs ...

  The bard can cast spells in Light Armor?  Again, his way of casting spells is WAY different from the wizard, as is his source.
  Based on what I'm reading, it seems to me that Light Armor is all but useless (it was most certainly all but useless in 2nd edition and 1st edition!  Leather armor was absolutely useless.) 

  I see that a bard can only 'know' so many spells per spell level.  The penalty once applied to all wizards is still applied to him.

  If a bard can cast spells without preparation, that is a major strengthening of the class.  In the old rules, all the spellcasting professions had to spend 15 minutes per level of the spell to memorize it.
  Thus, a bard would have had to have spent 45 minutes memorizing one 3rd level spell.  It was a crushing problem (since nobody has that kind of time in the middle of an adventure to spend) and many DMs just let memorization be a brief thing.

  Bardic Knowledge:  I love it.  20th level bard.  You.  You ask the bard a question about your childhood.  Bard proceeds to re-relate to you your entire childhood (including everything you did not remember.)  You're an evil character in the party, trying to hide that fact?  Not from the bard.  

  (is puzzling over Bardic Music currently ...)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

Hey there, wingsandsword.  Gotcha.


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## Numion (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Based on what I'm reading, it seems to me that Light Armor is all but useless (it was most certainly all but useless in 2nd edition and 1st edition!  Leather armor was absolutely useless.)




In my experience this is not at all the case. Maximum dexterity bonuses to AC made light armor the most commonly used variety in my games. At higher levels mithral plate might be more popular, but all the archers and even some meleers will rather have light armor to get the maximum possible dex bonus to AC. (Hmm.. and mithral plate is light armor, actually, is it not?).

If playing with lower attributes, that is not the case, of course. Medium armor might be the most useless


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## MerricB (Dec 5, 2005)

G'day, Edena!



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The other part:  the 10 + spell level requirement for Intelligence seems similar to 2nd edition.




Actually, it turned up in 1E as well, although with different values.. 



> The idea of increasing ability scores once per 4 levels would have been a cherished dream in 2nd edition.  It was all but impossible to increase ability scores in the older editions. And ability scores above 18 (in a few cases 19) were impossible without very powerful magic.  Now, you can just ... have it.  Start with an elf with 19 dexterity, go from there (actually, start with an elf of 20 dexterity, because they get a + 2 to dexterity, and they aren't capped at 19 at the start.)




It's a big change. In AD&D, ability scores were compressed at the top end. (As I recall, it took 10 wishes to increase one point from 16 onwards). 3e flattens the projection and extends it upwards. There are *lots* of things that are potentially stronger than humans, so the scale accomodates them better.



> I gotta admit, the half-orc barbarian is scary (well, ok, all the 1st edition barbarians were scary, but add in nasty half-orcs and that's scary! Krusk is not someone I'd want to mess with.)




We had a 4th level PC ranger get killed by a 1st level half-orc barbarian due to an unlucky roll. (Critical with greataxe? Not fun).



> Elves no longer have infravision ... that's a major weakening of the race (it's DARK in a forest at night! Been there.)




Elves now have low-light vision. They see as well in moonlight as humans do on a sunlight day (see DMG 296, Low-light vision). By starlight, it's like humans with moonlight. 

Dwarves, with darkvision, do much better underground. 



> I note that you can be proficient with all Simple and Martial Weapons if you are a fighter, or certain other classes. THAT is a huge strengthening of the fighter class




It's nice.  The main effect is that when the DM gives you a shiny new weapon, you're not going "Argh! I'm not proficient in it!"

Mind you, with all the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation feats and Improved Critical, etc, you do have favoured weapons.

(Incidentally, the non-proficiency penalty is -4 for *all* classes now).



> Are you SURE that Dexterity bonuses in no way affect the penalties for two-weapon fighting (or otherwise employing the off-hand) ? In 1st and 2nd edition, they did.




Really, really sure. 



> They gave the monk a d8 for hit points??!! HOORAY. The poor monk has been underpowered since he was first introduced in 1st edition.




The 3.5e monk is a treat. It's a really interesting class now.



> A bard's magic comes from his soul? Do they mean this literally? (It's a straight question: there is no reason why a person or a person's soul could not be the repository of overwhelming power. But if so, it has roleplaying and character building implications.)




Well, once you go to Magic of Incarnum, the power of the soul is more important...

It actually says, "A bard's magic comes from the heart".  Charisma is the determining force and, in 3e, Charisma not only determines how charming you can be, but the force and strength of your personality. You'll find that the strength of many monster's innate magical powers is determined by their Charisma scores.

As opposed to 2e, bards don't write their spells down. Instead they only "know" a limited number of spells. Whether these are gained by an innate gift for magic, or through received learning through their training is somewhat obscure.



> Can someone outline a more definitive example of how a bard summons magic?




The actual act of casting the spell is exactly like how the wizard or cleric does it. However, instead of having to prepare the spells from a spellbook or pray for the spells, the phrases and gestures of the spells are always available. Note that they don't prepare spells in advance - they cast them 'on the fly', but only have the knowledge of a limited number of spells.



> Crazy as this sounds, I get this overwhelming impression that gnomes would make the best bards. (EDIT: Looking back in curiosity, I see that bard is the favored class of gnome ...)




Not crazy at all. That's a change from 3e, btw, where the favoured class of the gnome was the illusionist. However, the 3.5e bard is *much* closer to the 1e illusionist than the 3.5e illusionist is...



> If a bard can cast spells without preparation, that is a major strengthening of the class. In the old rules, all the spellcasting professions had to spend 15 minutes per level of the spell to memorize it.




The rules for preparing spells (no longer called memorisation) underwent a major change.

The caster must first be rested (8 hours).
Then it takes 1 hour to prepare the spells. In the case of the Wizard, this means preparing them from a spellbook. In the case of a Cleric or Druid, praying for them. 

In the case of a Bard or Sorcerer, 15 minutes is all they need, refreshing the mind. 

Clerics gained the ability to cast cure spells spontaneously (so a Bless spell can be swapped out at any time for a Cure Light Wounds).

Wizards are fairly similar to 1e, although due to the rules on casting defensively in combat, they're far more effective in a melee. 

Bards and Sorcerers can just use any spell they know - but it's a limited list.

So, a 20th level Wizard doesn't take 7 days to prepare all their spells any more. 



> Bards stink, as usual, in spellcasting




You'd be surprised.  

A 2nd level bard can cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter, one of my favourite 2nd level Wizard spells. By 16th level, they get access to 6th level bard spells - which include a few 8th level Wizard spells! (The Wizard gains access to 8th level spells at 15th level).

Cheers!


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## MerricB (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Ah, thanks, FireLance.
> I now have double confirmation that Dexterity doesn't help with two-weapon fighting.  Finis that 2nd edition rule.  Indeed, it's really hard it seems in 3.5 to conduct two-weapon fighting.




Not at all. One feat is all it takes. At that point, a longsword + dagger gives you an additional attack at -2 to both attack rolls. This gets good once you factor in the Rogue's sneak attack ability.



> I guess in 3.5 they call that an Attack Bonus penalty.  Official terminology, no?  And there is no such thing as a Base Attack Bonus penalty, I'm guessing.  Just making sure of the wording here.




There's a handy glossary on page 304 of the PHB. 

The Base Attack Bonus is derived from your class & level, and only changes when you gain levels.

However, your attack modifier with various weapons does get modified.

The rules use terms like "+1 morale bonus on attack rolls" and "-1 penalty on attack rolls".

Cheers!


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm looking at the Bardic Music abilities.

  What do they mean by su and sp (after words like countersong, fascinate, etc.) ?
  Are they referring to supernatural and spell-like ability?

  I know that like bonuses do not stack in 3rd edition.  Different kinds of bonuses do stack.  There seems to be a lot of different kinds of bonuses.  So far, I've heard of, for Armor Class alone:

  Armor bonus
  Shield bonus
  Dexterity bonus (which can be cancelled out by the type of armor worn)
  Enhancement bonus (I do not entire understand what enhancement means)
  Deflection bonus (I do not entirely understand that one either, despite the obvious meaning of the word deflection.)
  Dodge bonus (I think I got that one down ...)
  Morale bonus
  Competency bonus (LOL ... you can add to your competency in defending yourself!)
  Situational bonus (being on lower ground, prone, etc.)
  Exalted bonus (I think, and I don't know anything more about it)

  Any other types of bonuses?  (You may not be able to stack, but there are things out there they never had in 2E, for you to use instead.  And it was quite rare that 2E DMs let you stack armor (plate armor with chain mail underneath??) and magical items were rare (Yes, I saw the + 5 cloak, + 5 armor, + 5 ring, + 5 shield, high dexterity approach, but I think you can do better than that in 3.5E, even without stacking.)

  Concerning the Bardic Music:

  Countersong is pretty clear.  I remember that from 1st and 2nd edition.
  I think I know what a Perform Check is, too.  Roll 1d20.  Add Charisma modifier.  Add rating in Perform.  A 1st level bard could have a Rank of 4 in Perform, so if he did you'd add 4.
  So I roll a ... 10.  Add 3 for the bard's 17 Charisma.  Add 4 for his Perform level.  That equals 17.  That is the saving throw mentioned that creatures can use, if it is higher than their rolls.
  About right?

  Fascinate:  I don't have to go to fantasy to understand this one.  Just try interrupting someone who is engrossed in listening to music.  If you survive the response, you'll understand fascinate.  
  Interesting ability.  Bard sees 4 orcs, starts playing.  Orcs sit down and listen.  Or, bard sees barroom brawl imminent.  Bard fascinates would-be instigator of brawl.  Brawl is averted.
  Again ... bard rolls 1d20.  Rolls 10.  Add 3 for 17 Charisma.  Add 4 for Perform 4.  17.  That is the Will Save orcs or would-be brawler have to make to escape Fascinate effect.
  About right?

  Inspire Courage:  If 3.5 allowed stacking of like bonus types, there'd be no point in this.  It gives a Morale bonus to BAB and to damage.  It gives a + 1 to BSB (Base Save Bonus) against fear and charm.

  Inspire Competence:  Prior to tonight, I had never heard of a Competence Bonus.  Now I see there is one.  This one is + 2, but it affects only skills (not a small thing ...)

  Suggestion:  I read that a wizard's spell DC (Difficulty Class) is 10 plus the wizard's intelligence bonus + the spell level.  Here, the bonus is 10 plus the charisma modifier plus 1/2  the bard's level.  I don't know how powerful Suggestion is in 3.5.  Will have to read the spell.
  I just considered something.  It's sorta humorous, I think.  Powerful creatures like drow and illithid make it a point to learn Common.  That's a mistake, since it makes them subject to this attack.

  Inspire Greatness:  There's that Competence Bonus again:  + 2 to Attack Rolls, + 1 to Fortitude Saves, gain 2d10 hit dice (does this mean the character is 2 levels higher for all purposes?  A wizard would gain 2 levels and new spells briefly?  Monks would gain the benefits of being 2 levels higher with new special abilities?) and appropriate hit points plus constitution bonus (does this mean that, when the creature loses those bonus hit points, it instantly dies?  That is, it only had 3 hit points left and when the temporary hit points went away, it dropped to - 15?)

  Song of Freedom:  I will have to read Break Enchantment.

  Inspire Heroics:  + 4 Morale Bonus to all saves, + 4 dodge bonus to AC.

  Mass Suggestion:  Will have to read the Suggestion spell.

  If several bards of differing levels are present, and each uses one of the powers above, do the effects stack?
  For example, if one bard is using Inspire Courage, another Inspire Greatness, and yet another Inspire Heroics on my character, wouldn't he get:

  + 2 Morale Bonus for saves against fear and charm (8th level bard)
  + 2 Morale Bonus on Attack Rolls and Damage Rolls (8th level bard)

  stacked with ...

  2 extra levels (additional abilities?)
  2d10 hit points plus constitution bonus for 2 levels.
  + 2 Competence Bonus on Attack Rolls.  + 1 Competence Bonus on Fortitude Saves.

  stacked with ...

  + 4 Morale Bonus on all Saving Throws.
  + 4 Dodge Bonus to Armor Class.

  Which would mean my character would get ...

  + 2 Morale Bonus for saves against fear and charm (8th level bard)
  + 2 Morale Bonus on Attack Rolls and Damage Rolls (8th level bard)
  2 extra levels (additional abilities?)
  2d10 hit points plus constitution bonus for 2 levels.
  + 2 Competence Bonus on Attack Rolls.  + 1 Competence Bonus on Fortitude Saves.
  + 4 Morale Bonus on all Saving Throws.
  + 4 Dodge Bonus to Armor Class.

  But, because the same types of bonuses don't stack, it would be ...

  + 4 Morale Bonus on all Saving Throws (but not + 6 versus Fear and Charm, because that is also a Morale Bonus, which wouldn't stack with the + 4 Morale Bonus)
  + 1 Competence Bonus on Fortitude Saves (total + 5 bonus to Fortitude Saves)
  + 2 Morale Bonus on Attack Rolls and Damage Rolls
  + 2 Competence Bonus on Attack Rolls (total of + 4 to Attack Rolls, since Morale and Competence stack)
  + 4 Dodge Bonus to Armor Class.
  2 extra levels (additional abilities?) plus 2d10 hit points plus Constitution Hit Point bonus for 2 levels.

  Is this correct?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 5, 2005)

Cheers to all of you.  And thanks for the feedback so far!  

  A wizard only needs AN HOUR to prepare ALL of her spells?  LOLOL.
  It DID take 7 days (or more) for a 20th level wizard to rememorize her spells.  (A single 9th level spell alone took 2 hours and 15 minutes to memorize.)
  I've heard stories of nerfing of magic in 3.5, but if the wizard need spend only an hour, that's a MASSIVE empowering of the class.

  Ditto the cleric and bard.  And, I'm guessing, the sorcerer, druid, ranger, paladin, and anyone else who casts spells.

  (Yes, that's right, folks.  There was once a time when the hapless 5th level mage, with spells 4/2/1, had to spend 2 hours and 45 minutes to memorize her paltry spell selection.  Add your extra spell per level for specialization (necromancer, enchanter, illusionist, etc.) and it would be 5/3/2, meaning 1 1/4 hours plus 1 1/2 hours plus 1 1/2 hours = 4 hours 15 minutes.  And, of course, the mage could not be interrupted by ANYTHING during this time.  Ah, the joys of running a wizard ... )

  My mistake.
  I see the bard has the second best BAB progression.
  The bard has a different spell list, too, as noted.

  So he can wear light armor and cast spells with no penalty, cast spells on the fly without memorization (Preparation now ...), but is limited in spells knowable and number usable.
  He can attack with a good BAB, but is limited in the number of weapons proficient in.
  He has the Bardic Song abilities.
  He has the Bardic Knowledge abilities (more useful than it sounds:  DM:  You reach the strange city.  Players:  Do we know anything about this place?  DM:  No!  And no!  And no!  Bardic Player:  Wanna bet?)

  And Gimble the Gnome there, has lousy hit points (d6 isn't the greatest ...)

  I see the bard does not have any clerical spells or clerical abilities.  So he is not quite a Jack-of-all-Trades ... (it takes a cleric, to be a cleric, I always say    )


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## MerricB (Dec 5, 2005)

> I see the bard does not have any clerical spells or clerical abilities.  So he is not quite a Jack-of-all-Trades ... (it takes a cleric, to be a cleric, I always say    )




The Bard *does* get cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, etc. 



> What do they mean by su and sp (after words like countersong, fascinate, etc.) ?
> Are they referring to supernatural and spell-like ability?




Ability types, as you guessed. (see DMG page 289-290)
Ex: Extraordinary - not affected by Spell Resistance, anti-magic, dispel and doesn't provoke attacks of of opportunity
Su: Supernatural - affected by dispelling and anti-magic field, but not spell resistance and doesn't provoke AoO.
Sp: Spell-Like - may be dispelled, affected by SR, anti-magic and provokes an AoO when used.



> I know that like bonuses do not stack in 3rd edition. Different kinds of bonuses do stack. There seems to be a lot of different kinds of bonuses. So far, I've heard of, for Armor Class alone:




There are.  



> Enhancement bonus (I do not entire understand what enhancement means)




Enhancement bonuses add to existing values. A +3 heavy wooden shield has a +3 enhancement bonus to the +2 shield bonus, giving it a +5 shield bonus in total.



> Deflection bonus (I do not entirely understand that one either, despite the obvious meaning of the word deflection.)




Rings of protection give deflection bonuses to AC; they divert attacks away magically.



> Competency bonus (LOL ... you can add to your competency in defending yourself!)




Don't think this comes up often. 

Mostly, Armour, Natural Armour, Shield, Deflection and Dodge are the most common bonuses to AC you'll see.



> I think I know what a Perform Check is, too. Roll 1d20. Add Charisma modifier. Add rating in Perform. A 1st level bard could have a Rank of 4 in Perform, so if he did you'd add 4.
> So I roll a ... 10. Add 3 for the bard's 17 Charisma. Add 4 for his Perform level. That equals 17. That is the saving throw mentioned that creatures can use, if it is higher than their rolls.
> About right?




Pretty much. As a rule, you'll have the modifiers for your skills already calculated on your character sheet.

e.g. Evan the Bard has 10 ranks in Perform (string instruments), a masterwork lute (which adds a +2 circumstance bonus), a 17 Charisma (a +3 bonus) and the feat Skill Focus (Perform stringed instruments), which adds another +3. All together, he has a +18 to Perform (string instruments), which I'd mark on the character sheet.

The Perform check (1d20+18) would then set the DC for the Bardic music abilities. (Note, Evan is probably a 7th level bard!)



> Inspire Courage: If 3.5 allowed stacking of like bonus types, there'd be no point in this. It gives a Morale bonus to BAB and to damage. It gives a + 1 to BSB (Base Save Bonus) against fear and charm.




In fact, it gives a morale bonus to attack and weapon damage rolls, and a morale bonus to saving throws against charm and fear effects. It doesn't modify the *base* values. They remain constant.



> Inspire Greatness: There's that Competence Bonus again: + 2 to Attack Rolls, + 1 to Fortitude Saves, gain 2d10 hit dice (does this mean the character is 2 levels higher for all purposes?




No. Just some.  The character counts as 2 levels higher for seeing whether spells affect them, but their personal power with spells, etc. is not increased.

Two bards both Inspiring Courage will not stack their effects.

Cheers!


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## Particle_Man (Dec 5, 2005)

There are some ways that Dex is relevant to two weapon fighting:

There are feats that reduce the penalties for two weapon fighting, or that give even more attacks.  These feats all require a progressively higher Dex score before you can even take the feats.

The ranger class allows one to access those feats as class abilities without needing to meet that prerequisite.  But the ranger can only use those class abilities if wearing light armor or no armor, which would make a high dex score very useful to keeping one's armor class up.


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## WayneLigon (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Can someone outline a more definitive example of how a bard summons magic?  (I mean, they could have said a bard evokes magic from his music, but they did not.  They said a bard draws magic from his soul, then emotes it through music or in other ways.  That is something totally different.  I'm nitpicking, sorry ... but it is crucial to character development and roleplaying.)
> 
> 
> The bard can cast spells in Light Armor?  Again, his way of casting spells is WAY different from the wizard, as is his source.
> Based on what I'm reading, it seems to me that Light Armor is all but useless (it was most certainly all but useless in 2nd edition and 1st edition!  Leather armor was absolutely useless.)




The Bard summons magic in whatever way you want the Bard to summon magic, but mechanically it means nothing; he still 'casts the same way as Wizard' (or any other spell casting class) in that he obeys all the same rules they do unless there is a specific instruction not to (for instance, all Bard spells have a verbal component, even if the spell says differently).

His way of casting isn't different from a Wizard's just because he can wear Light Armor. A Wizard _can _ wear Light Armor, or Heavy Armor, or whatever armor he wants - he has to buy the specific feats to do so, and the arcane spell failure means he'll suck as a spellcaster while doing it, but he _can _ wear it. He can evern wear it if he has no feat, he just sucks even _worse_. There are a few feats in other books that reduce this, and some special armor qualities can reduce it a bit further. 

Light Armor isn't useless. There are a number of things that only work if you're wearing Light armor or less (like some Ranger special abilities).


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## Staffan (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Elves no longer have infravision ... that's a major weakening of the race (it's DARK in a forest at night!  Been there.)



They get low-light vision instead, being able to see very well with natural light sources (e.g. moonlight) and twice as far with artificial ones (e.g. torches).



> Now any race can become any class or multiclass.  But Favored Classes are important, and would seem to represent a holdover from the classic conceptions of the races from older editions.  I mean, dwarves were always good fighters, elves loved magic, halflings were natural rogues, and so on.



To some degree, the favored class mostly means "favored dabbling". Lots of dwarves learn how to fight, even if their main trade is that of a rogue. Most elves learn a spell or three, taking a couple of levels of wizard. Almost all halflings are sneaky.



> Do the dexterity bonuses cancel out any of the - 6 / - 10 penalties?



No. However, the Two-Weapon fighting feat does (by +2/+6 in 3.5, and +2/+2 in 3.0), and that requires you to have Dex 15+. There are also later feats you can take that give you more off-hand attacks (at cumulative -5 penalties, just like main attacks), requiring even higher Dex. So dual-wielding is still the province of high-Dex characters, but in a different way.


> Ambidexterity?  There go the drow again



Drow are no longer naturally ambidextrous.


> Based on what I'm reading, it seems to me that Light Armor is all but useless (it was most certainly all but useless in 2nd edition and 1st edition!  Leather armor was absolutely useless.)



Light armor is far from useless. They go up to chain shirt, which gives +4 to AC (equivalent of scale mail). +4 seems to be the accepted minimum armor bonus in various parts of the system - most wizards will be having the same on account of the _mage armor_ spell (3e equivalent of the 2e _armor_ spell).


> What do they mean by su and sp (after words like countersong, fascinate, etc.) ?
> Are they referring to supernatural and spell-like ability?



Exactly. Spell-like abilities are a bit more restrictive - for example, if you try to use them in melee, your opponent gets a free attack at you (though that's relatively easy to avoid).


> I know that like bonuses do not stack in 3rd edition.  Different kinds of bonuses do stack.  There seems to be a lot of different kinds of bonuses.  So far, I've heard of, for Armor Class alone:



There's a more comprehensive list of bonus types and what they can apply to in the DMG.


> Enhancement bonus (I do not entire understand what enhancement means)



Enhancement bonuses are the bonuses given by most magic equipment (e.g. a +3 chain shirt has a +3 enhancement bonus). These are usually applied indirectly - so the +3 chain shirt doesn't give a +3 enhancement bonus to AC, it instead has a +3 applied to its basic +4 armor bonus, for a total armor bonus of +7. That's why enhancement bonuses from armor and shields stack.


> Deflection bonus (I do not entirely understand that one either, despite the obvious meaning of the word deflection.)



Basically some sort of supernatural warding-off of attacks. This is the bonus granted by most magical sources, notably _protection from evil_ and _rings of protection_.


> Powerful creatures like drow and illithid make it a point to learn Common.  That's a mistake, since it makes them subject to this attack.



It also makes them able to *use* _suggestion_ on others, so it comes out allright in the end.


> Inspire Greatness:  There's that Competence Bonus again:  + 2 to Attack Rolls, + 1 to Fortitude Saves, gain 2d10 hit dice (does this mean the character is 2 levels higher for all purposes?



Essentially, Inspire Greatness adds two fighter levels to the character (well, not exactly, but it's close enough). It's the same sort of effect as a 2e _potion of heroism_.

Also, this is a good place to point out the differences between "temporary" hit points (like those gained through this ability, or the _aid_ spell, or a number of other sources and "extra" hp gained through a Con increase. You can easily go ahead and squander your temporary hp without worrying - they're sort of like an ablative shield. Extra Con-based hp though, go away when Con drops again. So yeah - the barbarian rages and gets 2 hp/level (more at higher levels when he gets Greater and Mighty rage), but when the rage runs out he loses 2 hp per level again. You'd better hope the cleric has had a chance to get to him before that.


> For example, if one bard is using Inspire Courage, another Inspire Greatness, and yet another Inspire Heroics on my character, wouldn't he get:
> *+ 2 Morale Bonus for saves against fear and charm (8th level bard)*
> + 2 Morale Bonus on Attack Rolls and Damage Rolls (8th level bard)
> 2 extra levels (additional abilities?)
> ...



The two bolded ones wouldn't stack, since they're both Morale bonuses. The others, sure.


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## WayneLigon (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> A wizard only needs AN HOUR to prepare ALL of her spells?  LOLOL.




And if he has his books he can change out his spell selection for the day at any time, 15 minutes per spell. He can also use a higher level spell slot to prepare a lower level spell. A mage with 6/5/4/2 spells could memorize 11 Magic Missles if he was so inclined. 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I've heard stories of nerfing of magic in 3.5, but if the wizard need spend only an hour, that's a MASSIVE empowering of the class.  (Yes, that's right, folks.  There was once a time when the hapless 5th level mage, with spells 4/2/1, had to spend 2 hours and 45 minutes to memorize her paltry spell selection.




I've played D&D since the three brown books, and I have never had anyeone actually use that rule  Same with weapon speed factors. Similarly, no-one I knew ever seriously though that 'infravision' worked like an infrared scope - they just said 'you can see in the dark' and left it like that. I think what you'll find is that, even more than 2E, 3E took what a lot of people were doing anyway and made it a normal rule.


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## Voadam (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Cheers to all of you.  And thanks for the feedback so far!
> 
> A wizard only needs AN HOUR to prepare ALL of her spells?  LOLOL.
> It DID take 7 days (or more) for a 20th level wizard to rememorize her spells.  (A single 9th level spell alone took 2 hours and 15 minutes to memorize.)
> I've heard stories of nerfing of magic in 3.5, but if the wizard need spend only an hour, that's a MASSIVE empowering of the class.




Still needs 8 hours of rest (or quiet contemplation for elves) before hand.

The 3e/3.5 nerfing is in the power of the spells compared to how they were before. 10d6 max damage for fireballs when every monster now gets con bonuses like a PC. Hold person gets a save every round to break it. It is really tough to get a high target for the saves, lots of monsters are immune to mind affecting spells, evocations mostly do less damage than a comparable level warrior, many monsters have spell resistance that makes most spells fail entirely, rogues and monks take no damage on successful saves against area spells, etc.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I see that a bard can only 'know' so many spells per spell level.  The penalty once applied to all wizards is still applied to him.
> 
> If a bard can cast spells without preparation, that is a major strengthening of the class.  In the old rules, all the spellcasting professions had to spend 15 minutes per level of the spell to memorize it.
> Thus, a bard would have had to have spent 45 minutes memorizing one 3rd level spell.  It was a crushing problem (since nobody has that kind of time in the middle of an adventure to spend) and many DMs just let memorization be a brief thing.




As others have pointed out, there's now two essentially two "flavors" of spellcasting: spell preparation and spontaneous casting.  Bards and Sorcerers are the only core classes that cast spells spontaneously.  (And, in both "flavors", the amount of time the caster spends getting ready for the day has been made into something reasonable...)

Bards and sorcerers essentially trade one sort of flexibility for another: they never find themselves stuck with a useless prepared spell (because they can use their spell slots on any spell they know), but, they know very few spells at any particular level, and learning more spells is difficult (beyond gaining new spells for leveling, about the only other way to do it is to spend a feat slot).


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## Thotas (Dec 5, 2005)

Don't be so sure it's hard to get a good save built up.  Example character I play:

Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 1 : Will Save

    +3  for Cleric levels
    +3  for Wizard levels
    +2  for MT level
    +4  for Wisdom (19) bonus; goes to +5 for a 20 next level
    +2  Iron Will Feat
    +2  vs. enchantment spells and effects (which many Will saves are) for being a half-elf

That's a +16 on Will saves for a 7th level character, which aint half bad!


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## IcyCool (Dec 5, 2005)

I'll see what I can do to help you understand some of the changes (with a couple of specifics aimed at the questions you were asking).

#1. You will probably find yourself referring to darkvision as infravision.  Take a quick look at what darkvision is.  There is no infravision anymore.  It doesn't exist.  This is actually a reasonably big change.

#2. Attribute scores are more of a linear progression now, instead of the huge jump between 18 and 19.

#3. Everyone uses the same experience chart.
#3a. Everyone generally gets an equal share of the experience.  The fighter gets his share of the experience for the trap that the rogue disarms and the rogue gains his share of experience for the goblin the fighter killed.  In other words, the party earns experience as a group.  There's no point for in the fighter getting mad because the wizard finished off the monster he was hacking at, because he gets his share of experience regardless.

#4. Hitpoints.  Monsters have a lot more of them now.  Gone are the days of the mid-level fighter having more hitpoints than the dragon he is facing.

#5. Everyone can multiclass.

#6. Kenobi65 went over it already, but it does bear repeating.  There are spontaneous spellcasters (sorcerer, bard), and casters that have to prepare spells (cleric, druid, wizard).  Spontaneous spellcasters have a very limited number of spells that they know, but can pick what they want to cast whenever they cast a spell.  Casters who prepare spells generally have many more spells known, but have to prepare them in advance.

#7. Wizards learn two new spells every wizard level that they gain.  And they start with some spells in their spellbook.  If they want more, they have to find or buy them.

#8. Two-weapon fighting is pretty much the domain of high dexterity characters.  The two-weapon fighting feat chain requires a high dexterity.  You get smaller penalties if you are fighting with a light weapon in your off hand, and you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to add your Dex modifier to attacks with light weapons instead of your strength.  If you play a ranger and choose the two-weapon style, you can only do it in light or no armor, so dex is very important to your ac.

#9. There is no facing.  None.  Also, there is no backstab.  The rogue now has sneak attack.  He gets to use it when the opponent is flat-footed, denied his dex, or flanked.

#10.  There are several different bonus types.  There are also un-named bonuses.  As a general rule, bonuses of the same type don't stack (Dodge bonuses *do* stack).  Un-named bonuses stack with everything.  In the case where you are granted two bonuses of the same type, you gain the benefit of the higher bonus type.

Hopefully that will make some sense to you.

As to the Bard and where his casting ability comes from, that's just flavor.  Maybe it comes from his soul, maybe it comes from the love for his dead family, maybe it comes from the magical kool-aid he drank, whatever.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> A wizard only needs AN HOUR to prepare ALL of her spells?  LOLOL.
> It DID take 7 days (or more) for a 20th level wizard to rememorize her spells.  (A single 9th level spell alone took 2 hours and 15 minutes to memorize.)
> I've heard stories of nerfing of magic in 3.5, but if the wizard need spend only an hour, that's a MASSIVE empowering of the class.




Well, if you've got the "Steading of the Hill Giants" adventure, take a look at the amount of hitpoints that a typical hill giant had.  Now crack open the 3.x monster manual and look at how many it has.  And realize that the wizard's fireball does the same amount of damage as it used to.  Before, you'd cast fireball and the giants would die.  Now you cast fireball and the giants get angry.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 5, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I see the bard does not have any clerical spells or clerical abilities.  So he is not quite a Jack-of-all-Trades ... (it takes a cleric, to be a cleric, I always say    )






			
				MerricB said:
			
		

> The Bard *does* get cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, etc.




In a lot of ways, the Bard makes the ideal "fifth Beatle" -- after you have the other bases covered (a figthing-type, a divine spellcaster, a full arcane spellcaster, a skills specialist), a bard can be a great party member.  With the exception of social skills, he's unlikely to be the party's best at many things, but his versatility, and ability to support the rest of the party with his bardic abilities and spells, make him a great utility-man.

Of course, the class also does best with a player who is (a) comfortable in that role, and (b) knows how to best use the abilities...but that's pretty much true of any class.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 5, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> In my experience this is not at all the case. Maximum dexterity bonuses to AC made light armor the most commonly used variety in my games. At higher levels mithral plate might be more popular, but all the archers and even some meleers will rather have light armor to get the maximum possible dex bonus to AC. (Hmm.. and mithral plate is light armor, actually, is it not?).




No, it's not, unfortunately; mithral plate is medium armor.

As you'll see when you get to the Equipment chapter, Edena, there are three categories of armor:

Light: Padded (+1 bonus to AC), leather (+2), studded leather (+3), chain shirt (+4)
Medium: Hide (+3), scale (+4), chainmail (+4), breastplate (+5)
Heavy: Splint (+6), banded (+6), half-plate (+7), full plate (+8)

As Numion referred to, generally speaking, the heavier the armor, the less of your Dex bonus can be applied to AC -- for example, if you're wearing Leather, you can apply up to +8 of your Dex bonus (assuming it's that high) to your AC.  But, if you're wearing Full Plate, you can only apply +1 of your Dex bonus to your AC.  Thus, if you have an 18 Dex (+4 bonus), Half-Plate armor (+7 armor bonus to AC, +0 max Dex bonus to AC) would actually give you *less* protection than a Chain Shirt (+4 armor bonus to AC, +4 max Dex bonus to AC).

So, generally speaking, you tend to see PCs and their armor choices split into two camps:
- High-dex PCs tend to wear Light armor, so they can also apply most, if not all, of their Dex bonus to AC (and, several Dex-dependent classes, such as Rogue, Barbarian, and Ranger, have game mechanics that also push them into wearing nothing heavier than  Light armor)
- Low-dex PCs tend to wear the heaviest armor they can get.  This is the stereotypical tank-cleric.

As far as mithral...if a suit of metal (or primarily metal) armor is made of mithral, it has several nice effects:
- The armor is treated as one "weight" category lighter (so, a suit of mithral Breastplate would be considered Light armor)
- Arcane Spell Failure is reduced by 10%
- Maximum Dex bonus to AC is increased by 2
- Armor Check Penalty is reduced by 3

So, your Bard (who can wear Light armor without penalty) could invest 4200gp in a suit of mithral breastplate.  At that point, he'd have: 
- Light armor (so, nothing fouling up his abilities or spells)
- +5 armor bonus to AC
- Maximum Dex bonus to AC of +5
- Armor Check Penalty of -1

Pretty much the only downside would be that his speed would be lower (since making the armor out of mithral doesn't increase your speed while wearing it).

And, once you get into magical enhancements, it's cheaper to increase your AC via making your armor magical than it is via other magical enhancements (i.e., Rings of Protection, Amulets of Natural Armor, etc.)


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## wingsandsword (Dec 5, 2005)

A mithril breastplate however, is light armor.  The most powerful light armor in the core rules.

In my experience, a mithril breastplate is pretty much standard gear for a mid level (or higher) Bard or Ranger (or other class that loses abilities in heavier armor), Studded Leather is typical rogue gear because masterwork Studded Leather is the heaviest armor with no Armor Check Penalty to all those skills.  A mithril light shield is typical for bards (or wizards & sorcerers that have multiclassed with a class that gives shield proficiency), since it also has 0% arcane spell failure.


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## MerricB (Dec 5, 2005)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> And if he has his books he can change out his spell selection for the day at any time, 15 minutes per spell.




That's not quite correct: A wizard (or possibly cleric) can choose not to prepare all their spell slots. They can, later in the day, choose to prepare the rest of their spells. The time it takes is in proportion to how much they're preparing of their daily allotment, with a minimum of 15 minutes.

So, a Wizard may leave two 2nd level slots open, then in the middle of the adventure prepare two Knock spells - this will take a minimum of 15 minutes.

Cheers!


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## Staffan (Dec 6, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Studded Leather is typical rogue gear because masterwork Studded Leather is the heaviest armor with no Armor Check Penalty to all those skills.



Or, at later levels when you have some more money, a mithral chain shirt.


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## Particle_Man (Dec 6, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> A mithril breastplate however, is light armor.  The most powerful light armor in the core rules.




What about Celestial Armor from the DMG?


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## danzig138 (Dec 6, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> My good friend Edena proves that there is yet hope for Diaglo.



Man, I try to believe that there's always hope, but this one, yeah, this idea might strain that belief a little too far.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2005)

Comments of my own on your comments:

  Mithril Plate Armor is Light Armor?  Hehe.  I didn't know that.  I'll bet everyone wants one.   (Nothing like using magic, to overcome mundane penalties.)
  Medium and Heavy Armor seem great for characters without a Dexterity bonus (which is to say, many characters and most ordinary people.)  Get caught Flat-Footed without armor, and you're dead!  (And think of Braveheart or Return of the King.  Would you want to be in one of those giant melees, greatswords and all, without Heavy Armor?)
  Just a thought.  Not a statement (I'm not qualified to make statements here.  I'm not!   )

  I notice clerics must use the 10 plus spell level rule now.  That weakens the class very slightly, but only very slightly (after all, most cleric characters are going to have 16 Wisdom or better at the start.)
  I'm glad they kept the bonus spells for clerics.  I'm really happy to see they give bonus spells to the other spellcasters for their high attributes (casting one spell per day at first level as a wizard stank.)

  I've read the Critical Rules.  Nasty.  And some weapons are a lot better at criticals, like that funny looking knife (The Kukri.)  You get double, triple, or quadruple the damage (before Strength modifiers.)  2 - 16 isn't bad damage for a long sword.
  3 to 36 points for a Great Axe Critical?  As I said, you (being drunk and feeling superior) punch Kruski the Barbarian for 3 points.  You do no damage (due to Kruski's damage reduction) but you make Kruski mad.  You better find a really good way of apologizing really quick, because you cannot outrun the barbarian!  

  Funny thing, but it seems to me the Faerie would make good multiclassed barbarian/bards, based on what I've read of barbarians and bards.  After all, the Faerie use music and illusion and enchantment, are lore wise, like to dance and sing, are outdoorsmen and acquainted with living in the harsh wilderness, and tend to fly into unholy fits of rage when you break one of their esoteric customs.  See that cute atomie?  Don't anger him.

  Elves may have light light vision, and that's all fine and well.  They still can't see in the Forest at night.
  Even in deciduous forests, it is dead dark at night in the summer and early autumn.  In pine forests, it's twilight at mid day in the summer when the sun is shining.  At night, it's so dark Moria would like bright in comparison.
  And, if you live in a northern climate, you know full well that the moon and stars are usually blocked by clouds (Michigan:  been there, done that.)
  Poor elves ...

  I was astounded at the giving of proficiency in all Simple and/or Martial Weapons to the various classes.
  What this means to me is that 1st level represents an amateur knowledge of the weapon in question, and not a professional skill (sorta like Arilyn Moonblade when she was 15 and first met Kymil Nemesin, not the Arilyn Moonblade who met Danilo Thann!!)
  The fact you can level without training, and take other classes without training, in the core rules, reinforces that notion.
  And that, in turn, would indicate that high levels (such as level 10) indicate great proficiency, but not so great as in 2nd edition (where you had to study for 20 years to obtain Proficiency in just a couple of weapons.)  Arilyn would have been at least 10th level, when she met Danilo Thann, in my opinion. 
  Just my impression.

  I see clerics have Favored Weapons.  They do not have to take a Feat to gain proficiency in that weapon.  THAT'S nice (but I have a lot more to say about clerics below.)

  I'll get to Magic of Incarnum as soon as I can.  I must get through the PHB and DMG (appropriate parts) first.  Otherwise, what I read in Magic of Incarnum won't mean anything to me.

  If a bard's magic comes from 'the heart' I must assume that this means it comes from his physical body and mind, as well as his soul.
  Same with monsters whose power is based on Charisma (vampires, anyone?)

  Ok, it's Spell Preparation, not Spell Memorization.  

  I see that a + 4 bonus (of any sort) is a HUGE thing in 3.5.  In 2nd Edition, it was ok (at low level, it was impressive) but in 3.5 it seems it's a big thing even at 20th level.
  Likewise, a - 4 penalty (of any sort) is a huge penalty.

  More shortly ...


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2005)

Sadly, my eyes aren't what they were 4 years ago, during the first and second IRs.  I get eyestrain more rapidly (been then again, I'm 38.)  Bear with me if I'm slower.  I expect to be replying to this thread for days, if not weeks.

  More comments on your comments:

  The bard DOES get cure spells?  Ok ... THAT makes a difference (But she's Dorothy!  The Witch is Dorothy?  Well ... that makes a difference ...)
  Ok, where is the bard's backstabbing ability?  

  I see they categorize abilities as, what ... Natural, Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell-Like, and Spells.  One of those rules you have to know by rote, because so many things are affected by it.
  Magic Resistance (now Spell Resistance) seems to be weakened by this new rule.  Anti-Magic is definitely weakened (yes, the troll DOES continue to regenerate in your Anti-Magic Shell ... I read about the troll.    )

  Ok, the Enhancement bonus is in ADDITION to the 'Magical Bonus' of 2E.  + 3 Shield with + 4 Enhancement.  The 3 is the 2E Magical Bonus converted.  The 4 is the Enhancement bonus.
  I've heard you can have + 10 Shields this way.  LOL.  Where do (did) I get one of those for my 2E character? ...

  So, the Deflection bonus diverts attacks?  That is important for many reasons.  Someone fires a gun at your character, for instance (or, a plasma bolt from a particle cannon  ) the Deflection bonus would work against it.  It would work against thrown rocks by giants, ballistae bolts, and the blast wave of an explosion (such as, a whole keg of smokepowder going off 20 feet away.)
  Right?

  Competency Bonus:  Well, the bard does have to be high level to grant this type of bonus.

  Skill checks (thanks for the input on the bard (ala, masterwork lute, 17 charisma, skill focus (whatever that is) and the others.  Thanks much.  I'm puzzling it out.)

  Circumstance bonus:  I didn't know Masterwork items added Circumstance Bonuses.  That is a new one.  Can weapons and armor that are Masterwork Items add Circumstance Bonuses?

  If Evan the Bard rolled a 10, his modified score would be a 28, then.  That's because he has a + 18 to Perform.  Thus ... well, it says others have to use the bard's Perform check as their saving throws (for certain Bardic Musical Abilities.)
  Does that mean they use a 10?  Or do all the bard's modifiers come crashing in, meaning they need a - 8 to succeed in their rolls (miss save only on a natural 1) ?

  Right.  Base values (Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonus, Base Skill) aren't altered.  They are affected by modifiers, but they themselves stay the same.  Got it.

  Bardic Inspire Greatness:  It sounds like the character gains a simple 2d10 hit points (plus Con bonus for 2 levels.)  I'll leave it at that (plus the other abilities as stated for Inspire Greatness.)

  I see.  No, they wouldn't.  Because two bards using Inspire Greatness would cause two sets of the same kind of bonus, and the same kind of bonuses never stack.  I guess a simple rule of thumb would be:  No matter what the circumstance or possible interpretation, two bonuses of the same kind never stack.  Can't go wrong with that!

  I previously said that I thought a + 4 / - 4 bonus or penalty was huge in 3.5.  Thus, that - 6 / - 10 penalty for two weapon fighting is nothing short of colossal.  Drizzt Do'Urden took a lot of Feats, to overcome that one!
  I notice the Ranger gets all those two weapon feats easily.  I'm not to the ranger quite yet, but he sounds pretty scary!
  And you say he does as well, Particle Man.  Yeah, quite scary (Artemis Entreri, eat your heart out.    )

  I'm just saying that if the Bard draws magic from the body, mind, and soul, and not from an extraplanar source, underlying chaos, or other concept, it has roleplaying consequences.  Obviously, not much in the way of mechanic consequences, but bigtime roleplaying consequences and story consequences.
  Incidentally, I see no reason why ALL the modern instruments (such as violin, cello, oboe, bassoon, french horn, trombone, etc.) couldn't be in the campaign world.  Elves, dwarves, and others have had millennia to create such items.
  It would affect the 'medieval flavor' of the campaign, but it would give the bard a lot more versatility (ok, if the bard shows up with an electric guitar, THEN perhaps something is out of place in a medieval setting ...   )
  Perhaps the Bard can cast spells in Light Armor (whereas the Wizard suffers the Arcane Spell Failure chance) BECAUSE he casts spells from the body, mind, and soul, and not from an extraplanar source?

  If I was a Ranger, I'd rather wear no armor than Light Armor, if I had an extremely high dexterity.  Armor is just ... well ... inhibiting when you want to walk through thick underbrush, brambles, swampland, dense lower tree branches, and all the other places rangers go.  Just a thought ...

  I see they strengthened Two-Weapon Fighting in 3.5, based on your post (+ 2 / + 6 in 3.5 to + 2 / + 2 in 3.0.)  
  Ok, I see that the Feats can give you a second attack with your off-hand at - 5, and a third attack at - 10.  Do dexterity modifiers affect THOSE penalties?  

  Drow are no longer naturally ambidextrous?  IT'S AN OUTRAGE!  

  OK, I have contradictory opinions on Inspire Greatness.  One person says it only adds 2d10 hit points plus Con bonus.  Another says it adds 2 fighter levels (that's not a small thing.)  It can't be both.  

  A wizard can change his spell selection AFTER selecting his spells?  At 15 minutes per spell.  A further strengthening of the class, that one.  (I need magic missile to take out those orcs hiding in the trees at the top of the hill?  Why sure, I have ... well, I didn't memorize magic missile.  But give me 15 minutes, and I'll have it ready!)

  Agreed.  No DM I ever knew made mages spend that 15 minutes per spell level to memorize spells at the beginning of the day (and almost no DM ever used weapon speed factors, although some did quibble over infravision.)
  Had they done so, the adventure would have gone nowhere.  (We rest in dungeon room 2 for the next week, while the wizard and cleric regains their spells, before we take on the dragon in room 3.    )

  I realize 3.5 spells are nerfed in the core book (I couldn't miss it:  the complaints were deafening when 3.5 first came out.  I agree concerning the Druid's Wildshape ...)
  All you really need to do to bring back the Anything Is Possible (or, the Super Spell Mage) situation is go get the 2E supplements and translate the spells directly.  Translate spells like Gemidan's Paralytic Missile, Mantle, and Transforming Tune, and your mage will be powerful enough pretty quick!
  Fireball allows a save, and monsters get Con bonuses, yes.  But if their Good Base Saving Throw Bonus isn't in Fortitude, they are out of luck.  Crispy critters.  They might have been better off with the 2E saving throws!
  I see they nerfed Hold Person massively.  That's a matter of a DM's call.  He could use the 3.0 version, or bring forward the 2nd Edition version.  I guess it's a matter of what kind of game the DM and players want.
  Ditto the Haste spell and other spells.  Pick and choose.  2nd Edition brought forward, 3.0, 3.5.  Up to the DM and players.

  Ok, two new phrases to memorize:  Spell Preparation and Spontaneous Casting.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2005)

A + 16 bonus on Will Saves for a 7th level character?  Even in 2nd Edition, that would have been big.  In 3.5, where a + 4 is an enormous bonus, it's incredible.  LOL.

  Ok, infravision is Darkvision.  Gotcha.  Will look (they argued a lot over infravision and what it did when I was younger ...)

  I see the change in attribute scores.  As I said, it seems the old 18/00 is now around a 25, and the old 25 is around a 40.

  Everyone gets an equal share of experience automatically?  That is a change.  It prevents certain kinds of jealousy (but not other kinds of jealousy, sadly.)  It also rewards lazy characters ... 

  I noticed the change in hit points.  A bigtime change.  But then again, characters can inflict more damage now (as can the monsters.  I hope that Stoneskin spell is still in there ...)

  I'm not ready to go into Light Weapons, One Handed Melee Weapons, and Two Handed Weapons.  THAT looks complicated.  But I see what you're saying about wielding a One Handed Melee Weapon and a Small Weapon.  I believe that this style was historically popular In Real Life.

  I sorta got the impression the Rogue's Sneak Attack was the 3.5 equivalent of the old Backstab (but I'm not to the Rogue yet.)  If it works whenever there is Flat-Footedness, Dex is denied, or the opponent is Flanked, it's much more versatile (the old Backstab required Surprise AND attacking the rear of the target ...)

  Unnamed Bonuses?  

  I have G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief.  Will have a look.  Thanks for the tip on that.
  Of course, Fireballs still light wooden structures on fire (based on what I've read so far) so those hill giants will be even more angry as their home is now starting to burn down.   


  Sometimes, the bard reminds me of Sgt Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band.  (The soldiers in World War I are fighting like mad, and along comes the band, and they all stop and join the parade.  Fascinate?  Suggestion?  LOL ...)

  If you have 18 Dexterity, your Dexterity Bonus is equal to what Armor Bonus you'd get from Chainmail (+ 4) which was a popular historical type of armor.
  So why wear chainmail?  (Because when you're caught Flatfooted, you're dead without it?  LOL ...)
  As I said previously, I'd prefer to be in Heavy Armor (Full Plate + 8) in a mass combat like those in Braveheart or Return of the King.  Dexterity is useless when you're jam-packed amidst a crushing, pushing, writhing, mass of people trying to kill each other.  Most of them will strike at your back or sides.

  Mithril was also nice.  I see they have carried that over to 3.5.    Elves and dwarves still make the best armor.
  So Elven Chainmail would be Light Armor, give a + 4 Armor Bonus, and allow almost the full Dexterity Bonus.  Basically no Arcane Spell Failure Chance.

  Imagines a wizard with 10 strength in full plate, helmet, and shield.

  Party:  We've dressed you in the full plate.  You look good!
  Mage:  (No reply.)
  Party:  Let's sit down and eat now.  Our grog is the best!
  Mage:  (No reply, does not move.)
  Party:  The steak smells delicious.  Mage, you'll be eating fine tonight!
  Mage:  (No reply, does not move.)
  Party:  What's wrong with you, mage?
  Mage:  (muffled)  HELP!

  Hmmm ... magical armor doesn't increase your Speed?  Noted ...
  Amulets of Natural Armor?  Would they grant a Natural Bonus to Armor Class?    (After all, that would stack with the Armor Bonus, Dexterity Bonus, Dodge Bonus, and so on.)

  Uh ... ok.  A wizard CAN'T change his spells midday.  But he can leave some of his spell slots blank.  Still a major empowering of the class (Ok, I memorize my Magic Missile for those orcs up at the top of the hill in the trees.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2005)

Eyestrain now.  I'll get to the cleric momentarily.  Gotta rest my eyes.

  In brief, I see they made the cleric into what he should have been when * I * was playing clerics.  Jozan the Iconic Cleric is what Edena the Cleric (after which my SN is named) should have been.


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## wingsandsword (Dec 6, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Mithril Plate Armor is Light Armor?  Hehe.  I didn't know that.  I'll bet everyone wants one.   (Nothing like using magic, to overcome mundane penalties.)



Note that it's Mithril Breastplate, not Mithril Plate Mail.  Breastplates are normally a Medium Armor (just the breastplate, instead of the full suit of plate mail), while Plate Mail is what you're likely thinking of from earlier editions.  It's the difference between just putting on the breastplate, as opposed to the gauntlets, greaves, vambraces and all the other parts of the armor.

I didn't count Celestial Armor because I was meaning a general type of armor, not a specific magic item.







> Elves may have light light vision, and that's all fine and well.  They still can't see in the Forest at night.



I think the intent was for low-light vision to work at night in natural surroundings, so elves could see at night in their forests, while Darkvision was for underground places like caves.  Exact details of light levels might not synch up with the descriptions in the rules.  I know that's how I've always seen it played: Low light vision works at night, while you need Darkvision when you're underground without a light source.



> I was astounded at the giving of proficiency in all Simple and/or Martial Weapons to the various classes.
> What this means to me is that 1st level represents an amateur knowledge of the weapon in question, and not a professional skill



Yeah, proficiency now just means you can use it without penalty.  You have the basic level of use and don't look like a fool when you swing it.  Your Attack Bonus (Base Attack Bonus, feats, ect.) really show what your training and skill with the weapon is.







> Ok, the Enhancement bonus is in ADDITION to the 'Magical Bonus' of 2E. + 3 Shield with + 4 Enhancement. The 3 is the 2E Magical Bonus converted. The 4 is the Enhancement bonus.
> I've heard you can have + 10 Shields this way. LOL. Where do (did) I get one of those for my 2E character?



Not quite.  "Enhancement Bonus" is the same as "plusses" on a weapon or armor in 1e and 2e.  Shields do give a "Shield Bonus" which is the actual physical shield.  So a heavy steel shield can give a +2 Shield Bonus, while a light shield gives a +1 Shield Bonus.  Then you get the +4 (for example) Enhancement Bonus, for a total of +6 to your armor class if you carry a +4 Heavy Steel Shield.  Technically rules exist for bonuses above +5 (like a +10 shield), but they are in the Epic Level Handbook for over-20th-level characters, or they are artifacts.


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## MerricB (Dec 6, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Mithril Plate Armor is Light Armor?  Hehe.  I didn't know that.  I'll bet everyone wants one.   (Nothing like using magic, to overcome mundane penalties.)




Not quite. Mithral Plate is medium armour. (the quote above was in error). Races of the Wild actually sets out all the mithral armours in a table, but the rules are in the DMG.



> Medium and Heavy Armor seem great for characters without a Dexterity bonus (which is to say, many characters and most ordinary people.)




You've got it! 




> I notice clerics must use the 10 plus spell level rule now.  That weakens the class very slightly, but only very slightly (after all, most cleric characters are going to have 16 Wisdom or better at the start.)




Not at all. Because they get stat increases along with everyone else, even a cleric with a 14 Wisdom can cast 9th level cleric spells by 20th level.

Note also that in 3e there are ability boosting magic items for each ability score. (Headband of Intellect, Girdle of Giant Strength, etc.) They give either a +2, +4 or +6 bonus, and it is the rare high-level PC that doesn't have one.



> I'm glad they kept the bonus spells for clerics.  I'm really happy to see they give bonus spells to the other spellcasters for their high attributes (casting one spell per day at first level as a wizard stank.)




You and me both. 



> What this means to me is that 1st level represents an amateur knowledge of the weapon in question, and not a professional skill (sorta like Arilyn Moonblade when she was 15 and first met Kymil Nemesin, not the Arilyn Moonblade who met Danilo Thann!!)




Keep mentioning my favourite characters from D&D novels, and you're doing fine. 



> And that, in turn, would indicate that high levels (such as level 10) indicate great proficiency, but not so great as in 2nd edition (where you had to study for 20 years to obtain Proficiency in just a couple of weapons.)




There are training rules in the DMG, but, like most things, don't reflect how many people play the game. (I certainly never used them in 1e or 2e.)



> I see clerics have Favored Weapons.  They do not have to take a Feat to gain proficiency in that weapon.




Not actually true - the deity has a favoured weapon, which is the form the Spiritual Weapon (once Hammer) appears in. Clerics with the War Domain gain free proficiency and weapon focus in that weapon, but other clerics need to devote a feat to it. (or take a level in Fighter...)



> I'll get to Magic of Incarnum as soon as I can.  I must get through the PHB and DMG (appropriate parts) first.  Otherwise, what I read in Magic of Incarnum won't mean anything to me.




Definitely. 



> Same with monsters whose power is based on Charisma (vampires, anyone?)




Yep. 

Cheers!


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## MerricB (Dec 6, 2005)

> I see they categorize abilities as, what ... Natural, Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell-Like, and Spells.  One of those rules you have to know by rote, because so many things are affected by it.




Yep. It doesn't come up often, mind you.



> Ok, the Enhancement bonus is in ADDITION to the 'Magical Bonus' of 2E.  + 3 Shield with + 4 Enhancement.  The 3 is the 2E Magical Bonus converted.  The 4 is the Enhancement bonus.




No, a +3 shield in 2e would have a +3 enhancement bonus in 3e. What's probably confused you is that a light shield gives a +1 shield bonus to AC and a heavy shield gives a +2 shield bonus to AC. (It's wasn't a +2 shield I was talking about). A +3 heavy shield would give a +5 shield bonus (+2 standard plus 3 enhancement).




> Skill checks (thanks for the input on the bard (ala, masterwork lute, 17 charisma, skill focus (whatever that is) and the others.  Thanks much.  I'm puzzling it out.)




Skill Focus is a feat that gives +3 to one skill.



> Circumstance bonus:  I didn't know Masterwork items added Circumstance Bonuses.  That is a new one.  Can weapons and armor that are Masterwork Items add Circumstance Bonuses?




It varies. 

Masterwork weapons cost 300 gp more, and give a +1 enhancement bonus to hit (only).
Masterwork armours cost 150 gp more, and reduce the armour check penalty by one. (So they don't encumber as much, and it's easier to use climb, sneak and such in them).
Masterwork items cost 50 gp more (normally), and give a +2 circumstance bonus on related skill checks.



> If Evan the Bard rolled a 10, his modified score would be a 28, then.  That's because he has a + 18 to Perform.  Thus ... well, it says others have to use the bard's Perform check as their saving throws (for certain Bardic Musical Abilities.)




Then they need to roll a 28 for their save, (d20+modifiers). That isn't going to happen often. A natural 1 always fails for attacks and saves, a natural 20 always succeeds for attacks and saves.

On skill checks, there's no automatic failure or success.



> Bardic Inspire Greatness:  It sounds like the character gains a simple 2d10 hit points (plus Con bonus for 2 levels.)  I'll leave it at that (plus the other abilities as stated for Inspire Greatness.)




It's the easiest way to do it. 



> I guess a simple rule of thumb would be:  No matter what the circumstance or possible interpretation, two bonuses of the same kind never stack.  Can't go wrong with that!




Correct. It's quite simple. There are two exceptions...
* Dodge bonuses always stack
* Unnamed bonuses always stack.




> OK, I have contradictory opinions on Inspire Greatness.  One person says it only adds 2d10 hit points plus Con bonus.  Another says it adds 2 fighter levels (that's not a small thing.)  It can't be both.




The effects of Inspire Greatness are analogous to adding two fighter levels: 2d10 hp is what a fighter would gain, +2 to hit likewise. It isn't actually that, though.



> A wizard can change his spell selection AFTER selecting his spells?  At 15 minutes per spell.  A further strengthening of the class, that one.  (I need magic missile to take out those orcs hiding in the trees at the top of the hill?  Why sure, I have ... well, I didn't memorize magic missile.  But give me 15 minutes, and I'll have it ready!)




No. A wizard can not prepare a few slots and then prepare them later (proportional time; 15 minutes minimum for all preparation).




> Fireball allows a save, and monsters get Con bonuses, yes.  But if their Good Base Saving Throw Bonus isn't in Fortitude, they are out of luck.  Crispy critters.  They might have been better off with the 2E saving throws!




Fireball is a Reflex save, btw.  Most giants and orcs don't have good reflex saves.

Unfortunately, there are creatures with evasion... and they don't take much damage from Fireballs.



> I see they nerfed Hold Person massively.  That's a matter of a DM's call.  He could use the 3.0 version, or bring forward the 2nd Edition version.  I guess it's a matter of what kind of game the DM and players want.




Hold Person gets used on PCs a lot, and it really sucks to be out of the combat. Yes, it got nerfed, but it was effectively "save or die", which is a bit much for a 2nd level cleric spell. 

Cheers!


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## MerricB (Dec 6, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Everyone gets an equal share of experience automatically?  That is a change.  It prevents certain kinds of jealousy (but not other kinds of jealousy, sadly.)  It also rewards lazy characters ...






Incidentally, by 3.5e rules, lower level PCs gain more XP than higher level PCs for defeating the same enemy... so they can catch up. 3e really works best when the PCs are very close in level to each other.



> I noticed the change in hit points.  A bigtime change.  But then again, characters can inflict more damage now (as can the monsters.  I hope that Stoneskin spell is still in there ...)




It is, although it works differently: it absorbs 10 damage from each weapon blow *unless* that weapon is made of adamantine, and absorbs a maximum of 10 hp/level (max 150).




> I sorta got the impression the Rogue's Sneak Attack was the 3.5 equivalent of the old Backstab (but I'm not to the Rogue yet.)  If it works whenever there is Flat-Footedness, Dex is denied, or the opponent is Flanked, it's much more versatile (the old Backstab required Surprise AND attacking the rear of the target ...)




Correct. Much, much more useful.



> Unnamed Bonuses?




+2 armour bonus to AC
+2 bonus to AC

The second is unnamed, and thus stacks with everything.



> If you have 18 Dexterity, your Dexterity Bonus is equal to what Armor Bonus you'd get from Chainmail (+ 4) which was a popular historical type of armor.
> So why wear chainmail?  (Because when you're caught Flatfooted, you're dead without it?  LOL ...)




You use both. 

A Chain Shirt gives a +4 armour bonus to AC, your Dex gives a +4 Dex bonus to AC. The result is an AC of 18.

(Incidentally, Chainmail is +5 armour bonus and a max Dex bonus of +2).



> So Elven Chainmail would be Light Armor, give a + 4 Armor Bonus, and allow almost the full Dexterity Bonus.  Basically no Arcane Spell Failure Chance.




See page 220 of the DMG (and the really great picture by Todd Lockwood).

Elven Chain: +5 armour bonus, armour check -2, max Dex +4, light armour, 20 pounds weight, arcane spell failure 20%

Mithral Shirt: +4 armour bonus, armour check -0, max Dex +6, light armour, 10 points weight, arcane spell failure 10%



> Amulets of Natural Armor?  Would they grant a Natural Bonus to Armor Class?    (After all, that would stack with the Armor Bonus, Dexterity Bonus, Dodge Bonus, and so on.)




They give a Natural Armour bonus to AC. It's like toughening your hide; dragons don't wear normally wear armour, but have good natural armour. A Dragon that wears armour is scary...



> Uh ... ok.  A wizard CAN'T change his spells midday.  But he can leave some of his spell slots blank.  Still a major empowering of the class (Ok, I memorize my Magic Missile for those orcs up at the top of the hill in the trees.)




Wizards can also scribe scrolls from first level.

To scribe a scroll of a 1st level spell  costs 12 gp and 5 sp, takes one day, and burns 1 XP.

To scribe a scroll containing four 1st level spells costs 50 gp, takes one day, and burns 4 XP.

That's a major empowering of the class!

Cheers!


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## Hairfoot (Dec 6, 2005)

What?  What is this heresy?  Where's Diaglo?

I warn you now - D&D 3.5 is like a mobile phone.  You don't really need it, but once you have it you'll never know what you did without it.

New D&D corrupts even the simplest ideas.

In 1E, Lyralee the bard only needs six stats and some hitpoints to become a living character.  Play her in 3.5 and you'll end up like a stockbroker: poring over tables of skills and modifiers with a calculator, trying figure out how your mithril-bodied psionic half-illumian can get a +1 dodge bonus to armour class by flanking a large opponent while wielding a light piercing weapon over rough terrain.

Cherry-pick good rules from 3.5, but keep it 1E at heart.

3.5.  Boogie-boogie-boogie!


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## wingsandsword (Dec 6, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> No. A wizard can not prepare a few slots and then prepare them later (proportional time; 15 minutes minimum for all preparation).



Actually, I have to correct this:

Players Handbook 3.5, Page 178:

"When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of those slots open.  Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting.  During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots."

"After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells for that day.  If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour.  Preparing some smaller proportion of her spell capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum amount of time required to achieve the proper mental state."


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2005)

Hey there,  MerricB.  Yeah, Arilyn and Danilo are favorite characters of mine, too.  
  Thanks for the feedback!

  Now, I played a cleric for 20 years, and have strong opinions on the matter.  Rather than vent them, I'll let my reaction to what the 3.5 cleric is like speak for me.  (grins)

  It says:  Good clerics heal, protect, and avenge.  I love it!  I am vindicated!  (In a certain long ago film, Taraak the Defender said:  When life is taken for naught, the Pact is, to Avenge.  And now avenging a good act, straight from the horse's mouth!)

  Clerics are the healing, spellcasting warriors they should have been from the start.

  They receive proficiency in all Simple Weapons, but 1 level in Fighter gives them all Martial Weapons also.  They can wear Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor.  
  Clerics have the 2nd best BAB.  They have 3 attacks per round at 20th level (in 2E, they never got more than 1 attack per round at ANY level.)
  Clerics have more powerful healing spells in 3.5 (Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds all heal more damage than in 1E or 2E.)
  Clerics can change any memorized spell into a healing spell.
  Clerics now gain spells up to 9th level (I saw a Quest spell or two, from the 2E Tome of Magic, in their spell list ...)
  Clerics now get an extra Domain spell at each level (choose one from one Domain source.)
  Clerics get Granted Powers for their Domain, which can be used as a Spell-Like Ability.
  Clerics need not worship a Diety.  They can worship Good or Evil, Law or Chaos.  (Good is IT.  Clear and simple.  Understand?!    )
  Clerics have more offensive spells than they had in 2E (and you can add the 2E spells from the Tome of Magic if you want, too!)
  Clerics have more spells in general than in 2E.

  It says:  A cleric is a party's best friend.  LOL.  Because back in 1E and 2E, the cleric was the Useless Person whom you Dragged Forward Occasionally to Turn Undead, and Heal the Wounded Fighters.
  Not any more.

  I noticed in skimming the Combat Rules that if you are dying (- 1 to - 9 hit points) even 1 point of magical healing would stabilize you and completely prevent any chance of your dying.
  A cleric gets 3 0 level spells at 1st level.  That's three party members saved.
  A party's best friend, indeed!!  

  Clerics can now wield any kind of weapon they want.  In 1E, they were forbidden to shed blood but could use blunt weapons (which didn't make sense, since a 5 pound mace connecting with your head typically sheds blood, unless you are an undead.    )
  Now my cleric of Odin can wield sword, spear, bow (YES, no more stupid slings), mace, or anything he pleases.  And if he has the War Domain, he gets proficiency in that deity's favored weapon.

  Did I mention that I think that they have improved the cleric?    

  Turning Undead, ah yes.  For some reason, every DM assumed turned undead would never come back.  (If I was a wraith, and some snotty goody-goody human cleric turned me, I'D come back.  PAYBACK TIME.)
  Of course, destroyed undead have nothing to say in this matter ...

  I see that neutral clerics can now command undead.  Not a comfortable matter for the party paladin, but useful (Wraith, attack that monster!  Ghoul, fetch that item!  Ghast, smell up the entire palace!  Zombie, open that chest!)
  Back in 1E and 2E, it was quite rare that DMs allowed neutral clerics to command the undead.

  Ah, but good clerics can't use Evil Spells?  And evil clerics can't use Good spells?  GOOD.  Because they SHOULDN'T BE.  (Moral relativism aside!)
  Evil clerics can't download their spells into cure spells?  They must take cause wound spells?  GOOD.  THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE.  Evil is EVIL, not expedient.  If the evil cleric has a problem with that, then he shouldn't have followed the Vile Ways, should he?

  Did I mention I think they've improved the cleric in 3.5E over 2E?  Why, yes I did ... 

  (Bring forward the 2E spells from the 2E Tome of Magic, and heavens help you if you run into an enemy cleric.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2005)

Ah, a wizard can leave spell slots open.  And she can fill them later, in one session or many sessions.  Got it.  Thanks, wingsandsword.  (And thank all of you who are providing feedback to my posts.  My sincere thanks.)

  Concerning your post, Hairfoot, I agree.  You can get bogged down in rules.
  But you can also play Sky is the Limit.  Take the 3.5 rules, add in the Anything Is Possible concepts of 1E and 2E, and have ... well, as Burger King would say, have it your way.  

  But first you have to know the 3.5 rules.  A minor point.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 6, 2005)

It tickles me pink that the Druid can be more Good than most Good Clerics.  THAT is a change!

  Druids can now be Neutral, Neutral Good, Neutral Evil, Lawful Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral.
  But remember your Planescape?

  Neutral Good is the ULTIMATE Good.  There is no Good that is more Good than Elysium.  The Seven Heavens are less Good and more Lawful.  Arborea is less Good and more Chaotic.
  Neutral Evil is the Ultimate Evil.  The Gray Waste is more evil than the Nine Hells or the 666 Layers of the Abyss, but not Lawful or Chaotic.

  So the Neutral Good Druid could choose to be super-good, as it were (or, slightly good, just above the neutral line.)  She could choose to be super-evil, too.  Just as long as she reveres nature, she's fine.

  That's quite a change from the 1E and 2E druids, who believed in Militant Neutrality and only Neutrality and Balance.
  A Neutral Good Druid who chooses to be super good will not believe in maintaining the good/evil Balance.  

  I like it that druids are more flexible in this matter.  For Nature is truly beautiful, and truly horrible.  Ask anyone who works outdoors if this is not the truth.
  A good druid could turn her Forest into a Paradise, based on her personal vision.
  An evil druid could create a new Forest Under Nightshade (from the Simarillion) and wallow in it's delightful dreadfulness.
  A lawful druid might place a You Must Carefully Attend All Campfires sign (and heavens help you, if you disobey the law in THIS forest!)
  A chaotic druid could delight in storms, tempests, and teasing all those on two legs who enter her demense for amusement.  If said two legged beings take offense and hurt the forest, then the teasing becomes a gleeful torture (ala the Old Forest.)

  I always liked Druids, back in 1E and 2E.
  I noticed the nerfing of the Wildshape ability.  I do not know how to fix that, except to go to the 3.0 Wildshape ability instead.  It makes more sense to me, because at high level Druids in 3.5 gain the ability to shapeshift into Elementals, and when they do they gain all the Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-like abilities of the Elemental.  It's like going from 35 degrees to 90 degrees, and doesn't quite make sense.  I'll stick with the 3.0 Wildshape.

  I will say more on druids in the next post.
  I think Vadania is a classic moon elf, by the way.  (Yes, I know that is not what was intended, but that's how she appears to me.  Moon-elves are just that:  very pale skinned.)
  What IS that nasty looking weapon she is carrying?  That's not a scimitar!


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## kenobi65 (Dec 6, 2005)

Just a few clarifications...



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Clerics have the 2nd best BAB.




Just FYI, there are three BAB progressions in 3E:
- 1/1 (BAB goes up by +1 every level) -- fighter-types get this
- 3/4 (BAB goes up by +1 on 3 out of 4 levels) -- clerics, druids, monks, rogues, and bards get this one
- 1/2 (BAB goes up by +1 every other level) -- wizards and sorcerers get this one



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Clerics have more powerful healing spells in 3.5 (Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds all heal more damage than in 1E or 2E.)




Yeah, the "+ level" bonus to the healing done is very nice.  And, if the cleric has the Healing domain, his effective level is one higher for casting curing spells.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Clerics can change any memorized spell into a healing spell.




Mostly.  Domain spells cannot be swapped out for healing spells.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Clerics get Granted Powers for their Domain, which can be used as a Spell-Like Ability.




Depends on the domain; some domains grant specific spell-like powers, while others have other effects (like the Healing domain noted above).



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Clerics can now wield any kind of weapon they want.




Yup, with the exception of classes with specific vows regarding armor or weapons (e.g., druids), anyone can use any weapon or armor they want to.  Of course, if they're not *proficient* with it, they suffer penalties, but it's no longer a case of "you just can't do it."



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I see that neutral clerics can now command undead.




Yup, it's possible now.  The player has to decide, at character creation, if he's going to turn or rebuke undead.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 6, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I see they strengthened Two-Weapon Fighting in 3.5, based on your post (+ 2 / + 6 in 3.5 to + 2 / + 2 in 3.0.)
> Ok, I see that the Feats can give you a second attack with your off-hand at - 5, and a third attack at - 10.  Do dexterity modifiers affect THOSE penalties?




No, Dex doesn't change those penalties, either, though, as others have posted, you need a high Dex to be able to take those Two-Weapon Fighting feats in the first place.  Banish from your mind the thought that high Dex will help TWF! 

As you've seen, if you have a high enough Base Attack Bonus (+6 or higher), you get a second (or more) attack per round...these are called "iterative attacks".  When you get a BAB of +6, you get a second iterative attack at -5 from your BAB (so, if your BAB is +6, your second attack would be at a base bonus of +1).  When your BAB gets to +11, you get a third attack at -10, and when your BAB gets to +16, you get a fourth attack at -15.

All of those iterative attacks are done with the primary weapon.  Even if you have a BAB of +16 or higher, and can make 4 attacks per round with that primary weapon, you *still* only get one attack with the off-hand weapon...unless you have the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feats.

What Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting are essentially giving you is one or two "iterative" attacks with the off-hand weapon...which is why they're at -5 and -10, respectively.  This is also why the prerequisites for those feats are BAB of +6 and +11, respectively -- this keeps you from being able to get a second (or third) attack with the off hand before you qualify for getting the second (or third) attack with the primary weapon.


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## Staffan (Dec 6, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I've read the Critical Rules.  Nasty.  And some weapons are a lot better at criticals, like that funny looking knife (The Kukri.)  You get double, triple, or quadruple the damage (before Strength modifiers.)  2 - 16 isn't bad damage for a long sword.



Note that on average, 19-20/x2 is as good as 20/x3. One gives you twice as many crits, the other gives you twice the benefit of them (+100% damage vs +200%)


> I see clerics have Favored Weapons.  They do not have to take a Feat to gain proficiency in that weapon.  THAT'S nice (but I have a lot more to say about clerics below.)



They need a feat unless they have the War domain (which grants proficiency and weapon focus in the weapon). Other than that, the only game effect is that if they cast Spiritual Weapon, the weapon takes on the threat range/crit multiplier of their favored weapon.


> Ok, the Enhancement bonus is in ADDITION to the 'Magical Bonus' of 2E.  + 3 Shield with + 4 Enhancement.  The 3 is the 2E Magical Bonus converted.  The 4 is the Enhancement bonus.



No, the enhancement bonus *is* the plus. A suit of +2 full plate (which normally gives a +8 armor bonus) gives a total armor bonus of +10 (+8 armor + 2 enhancement to that armor bonus).


> I've heard you can have + 10 Shields this way.  LOL.  Where do (did) I get one of those for my 2E character? ...



Not quite (unless you're using epic-level rules... which, given your predeliction for 160th-level characters could happen). You can't have an enhancement bonus of more than +5 on a weapon, shield or armor. However, you can add additional abilities to your item, and in most cases these bump up the cost of the item as if it had had a higher bonus - a +1 flaming sword costs as much as a +2 sword. This way, you can have an item that's effectively +10, but the actual bonus is "only" +5.


> So, the Deflection bonus diverts attacks?  That is important for many reasons.  Someone fires a gun at your character, for instance (or, a plasma bolt from a particle cannon  ) the Deflection bonus would work against it.  It would work against thrown rocks by giants, ballistae bolts, and the blast wave of an explosion (such as, a whole keg of smokepowder going off 20 feet away.)



It would work against anything that requires an attack roll, including things that use touch attacks (it's one of the few "common" bonuses that work both when flatfooted and against touch attacks - armor/natural armor/shield doesn't work against touch attacks and Dex doesn't work when flatfooted). Area attacks (like the smokepowder), not so much.


> If Evan the Bard rolled a 10, his modified score would be a 28, then.  That's because he has a + 18 to Perform.  Thus ... well, it says others have to use the bard's Perform check as their saving throws (for certain Bardic Musical Abilities.)
> Does that mean they use a 10?  Or do all the bard's modifiers come crashing in, meaning they need a - 8 to succeed in their rolls (miss save only on a natural 1) ?



No, it means they use 28 instead of their saves (or they could roll and take the better one). Ditto for abilities that use the Perform skill check as a save DC.


> I previously said that I thought a + 4 / - 4 bonus or penalty was huge in 3.5.  Thus, that - 6 / - 10 penalty for two weapon fighting is nothing short of colossal.  Drizzt Do'Urden took a lot of Feats, to overcome that one!



Not that many, really. Two feats in 3.0 (Two-weapon fighting and Ambidexterity), one in 3.5 (Ambidex was folded into TWF). IIRC, he probably has Improved and Greater TWF as well, but those don't change bonuses, they "just" give you more attacks (a second and third off-hand attack, at -5 and -10).


> Incidentally, I see no reason why ALL the modern instruments (such as violin, cello, oboe, bassoon, french horn, trombone, etc.) couldn't be in the campaign world.  Elves, dwarves, and others have had millennia to create such items.



There is a sourcebook (Complete Adventurer) that has rules for having different instruments give different modifiers to various bardic music abilities.


> Ok, I see that the Feats can give you a second attack with your off-hand at - 5, and a third attack at - 10.  Do dexterity modifiers affect THOSE penalties?



No. Note that those penalties are the same as you get for second and third attacks with your main weapon as well - if you look at the base attack bonuses for the various classes, you'll see that you get a second attack at +1 when you hit BAB +6, and a third at +1 when you hit +11. The -5 and -10 penalties are there to mimic that. However, the Improved and Greater TWF feats require progressively higher Dex (17 and 19), though the ranger doesn't have to worry about those prereqs when he gets them as bonus feats.


> OK, I have contradictory opinions on Inspire Greatness.  One person says it only adds 2d10 hit points plus Con bonus.  Another says it adds 2 fighter levels (that's not a small thing.)  It can't be both.



I said it was _sort of_ like two levels of fighter. If you look at the fighter class and see what they get for two levels, it is: +2d10 (+2*Con) hp, +2 to hit, +1 to Fort saves, sometimes +1 to Ref and Will saves, +1 feat, +4 (+2*Int) skill points. Inspire Greatness gives you the first three of those.


> I sorta got the impression the Rogue's Sneak Attack was the 3.5 equivalent of the old Backstab (but I'm not to the Rogue yet.)  If it works whenever there is Flat-Footedness, Dex is denied, or the opponent is Flanked, it's much more versatile (the old Backstab required Surprise AND attacking the rear of the target ...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kenobi65 (Dec 6, 2005)

And, as long as we're on the topic of two-weapon fighting...

What you'll discover is that there's basically three "fighting builds" you can create in 3E / 3.5:

- Two-handed weapon
- Two one-handed weapons
- One handed weapon + shield (a.k.a. "sword and board")

If one's looking to do maximum damage, wielding a two-handed weapon (most typically a greatsword or greataxe) is usually the way to go.  The combination of being able to add 1.5 times your STR bonus to the damage, along with the way the Power Attack feat works in 3.5, generally makes this style the most effective.

That said, it *is* certainly possible to make effective fighters with the other builds.


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## Voadam (Dec 6, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Drow are no longer naturally ambidextrous?  IT'S AN OUTRAGE!




Yes it is. And they are no longer Chaotic Evil either. Now they are neutral evil.


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## Particle_Man (Dec 6, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Ah, but good clerics can't use Evil Spells?  And evil clerics can't use Good spells?  GOOD.  Because they SHOULDN'T BE.  (Moral relativism aside!)
> Evil clerics can't download their spells into cure spells?  They must take cause wound spells?  GOOD.  THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE.  Evil is EVIL, not expedient.  If the evil cleric has a problem with that, then he shouldn't have followed the Vile Ways, should he?




1) One thing 3.5 does not contain is moral relativism.  Good and Evil are as much a part of the objective, physical nature of the average D&D universe as gravity and electromagnetism is a part of our own.

2) Technically, evil clerics can prepare cure spells.  But they cannot "automatically" change any of their prepared spells on the fly into cure spells.  Similarly, good clerics cannot automatically change any of their prepared spells on the fly into inflict spells, but could prepare inflict spells for the day, if need be.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 6, 2005)

Is anyone else just having a complete ball reading Edena's reactions?  It's totally taking me back to when I first cracked open the 3.0 PHB.  "They changed *this?* Holy cow!  Ooh!  Look at that!  Shiney!"

Thanks for a very entertaining thread, Edena!


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## Jdvn1 (Dec 6, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Is anyone else just having a complete ball reading Edena's reactions?  It's totally taking me back to when I first cracked open the 3.0 PHB.  "They changed *this?* Holy cow!  Ooh!  Look at that!  Shiney!"
> 
> Thanks for a very entertaining thread, Edena!



 I am! 

And a character can be naturally ambidextrous as a matter of color, arguably (all these long posts, I didn't see if that was addressed).


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## kenobi65 (Dec 6, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> See page 220 of the DMG (and the really great picture {of Elven Chain} by Todd Lockwood).




Oooh, yah!  I've got a signed print of that picture hanging on the wall right here.  Purty!


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## kenobi65 (Dec 6, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> And a character can be naturally ambidextrous as a matter of color, arguably (all these long posts, I didn't see if that was addressed).




Technically, since Ambidexterity is no longer a feat in 3.5, I suppose you're right.  However, if a player tried to get any mechanical advantage out of this "flavor" ambidexterity, I'd have to slap 'em.


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 6, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> So the Neutral Good Druid could choose to be super-good, as it were (or, slightly good, just above the neutral line.)  She could choose to be super-evil, too.  Just as long as she reveres nature, she's fine.




Yep that's one of the main 'features' of 3.x ed D&D - there are a lot more options available.

Some people argue that it takes a lot of the personality of the game away but I've always felt its the job of the DM to supply personality, it's the job of the rules to make sense 

Like others have said - it's great seeing somebody enjoying the spirit of the new rules. (even if the mechanics take a while to learn!)


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## Flyspeck23 (Dec 6, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I noticed in skimming the Combat Rules that if you are dying (- 1 to - 9 hit points) even 1 point of magical healing would stabilize you and completely prevent any chance of your dying.
> A cleric gets 3 0 level spells at 1st level. That's three party members saved.
> A party's best friend, indeed!!




Yes, indeed! And that's the very reason why a cleric's level 0 spells are useful, why other classes' level 0 spells are not (or at least much, much less useful).

Good catch!


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## kenobi65 (Dec 6, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I noticed in skimming the Combat Rules that if you are dying (- 1 to - 9 hit points) even 1 point of magical healing would stabilize you and completely prevent any chance of your dying.




Also good for stabilizing dying bad guys, whom you might want to question later...


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## sniffles (Dec 7, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Technically, since Ambidexterity is no longer a feat in 3.5, I suppose you're right.  However, if a player tried to get any mechanical advantage out of this "flavor" ambidexterity, I'd have to slap 'em.



There is an ambidexterity special ability in the Tempest prestige class... But that's probably too much information for Edena, since she hasn't got through clerics yet!    

This thread has been fun to read. I was involved in a 2e campaign when 3e was released, but it was my first D&D game and I never bothered to read the rules thoroughly. I just let the GM and other more experienced players tell me how things worked. Once 3e arrived I started reading rules. I find reading the 3e rules much more entertaining than 2e. The possibilities seem endless.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 7, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> But that's probably too much information for Edena, since she hasn't got through clerics yet!




IIRC from old threads, Edena's actually a guy (though I'll let him / her confirm or deny it as he / she wishes).   Don't feel bad, the name threw me, too...


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## DM_Matt (Dec 7, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> IIRC from old threads, Edena's actually a guy (though I'll let him / her confirm or deny it as he / she wishes).   Don't feel bad, the name threw me, too...




I seem to recall that the poster is male, but Edena, his 160th or so level character his name is based on, has been of both sexes during his enormously long career.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 7, 2005)

(deletes this post)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 7, 2005)

(deletes this post)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 7, 2005)

(deletes this post)


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## kenobi65 (Dec 7, 2005)

(deleted)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 7, 2005)

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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 7, 2005)

Pardons, Kenobi65.  You might want to change your post above, since I deleted all my relevant posts relating to it.  It seems Olivia is a neat character, and also a powerful character!  Just my impression.

  Back on topic, I would comment that it increasingly seems to me like you were in a straightjacket back in 2E, compared to 3rd Edition or 3.5.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 7, 2005)

Thanks for the thanks, guys.  Yeah, my enthusiasm and astonishment must have been showing pretty strongly.
  I remember when 3.0 first came out, and all these posts were flying on ENWorld, most in stark astonishment, amazement, dismay, and delight.

  Kenobi65, what Feats did Olivia take?  And what do they do?

  On the Druid:

  What weapon is Vadania wielding?
  I see that Druids and Metal Armor mix like oil and water ...
  Druids use the Average Base Attack bonus chart, but have fewer weapons than the cleric ...

  A Druid worships primordial nature.  Does this mean a Druid can't worship a Deity?

  Druids can dump their magic spells (ala clerics) but only to cast Summoning spells?

  I can see huge roleplaying opportunities in the Animal Companion.  Certainly, I've seen this depicted in many films and books.  But isn't this likely to end tragically with the animal killed?  What chance does an animal have in the gritty, rough and tumble mess of adventuring?
  Can anyone share their experiences on this?
  How does Multiattack work?

  Venom immunity is a strengthening of the Druid class.  They dropped it from 16th level to 9th level.
  Timeless Body is a weakening of the class.  The old Hierophant gained physical youth, and life extension.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 7, 2005)

Concerning the Fighter:

  I notice the Composite Bow is now the bow you need for a Strength Bow.
  I'm guessing Composite Bows are pretty popular nowadays.  

  The bastard sword of Movie legend is now an exotic weapon.  Even the fighter must use a Feat to use the bastard sword one-handed.

  What is it about the Spiked Chain that makes it so popular?
  For years I've been hearing about spiked chains.  

  The Fighter is a Feat Class.  That's pretty obvious.  If you like Feats, be a Fighter.  In a gestalt campaign, take Fighter for all those Feats.  Let's see, 1 at 1st level, 1 at 2nd level, 1 at 4th level, 1 at 6th, etc., plus 1 starting, plus 1 if you're a human, plus 1 at 3rd, 1 at 6th, 1 at 9th, etc.
  One thing I'm not seeing is that any of the other classes can take nearly this many Feats.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 7, 2005)

In 1E, the monk was unplayable, in my opinion.  
  In 2E, they put the monk in Oriental Adventures.
  Now the monk is back in the Core Classes.  Is she better now?  Hmmm ...

  (puzzles through the monk entry)


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## shilsen (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> What weapon is Vadania wielding?




A scimitar.



> A Druid worships primordial nature.  Does this mean a Druid can't worship a Deity?




Nope. They just don't draw their power from the deity, unless it's a cleric/druid multiclass.



> Druids can dump their magic spells (ala clerics) but only to cast Summoning spells?




Correct.



> I can see huge roleplaying opportunities in the Animal Companion.  Certainly, I've seen this depicted in many films and books.  But isn't this likely to end tragically with the animal killed?  What chance does an animal have in the gritty, rough and tumble mess of adventuring?
> Can anyone share their experiences on this?




Animal companions gain hit dice as the master gains druid levels, so they get stronger over time. As long as the druid takes decent care of them with magical protection (spells and items), they're quite durable. And just wait till you see a druid with an Animal Growthed animal companion.



> How does Multiattack work?




In short, creatures get a -5 to hit with their secondary weapons in comparison to the primary weapon. Multiattack changes that to a -2.


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> What is it about the Spiked Chain that makes it so popular?
> For years I've been hearing about spiked chains.




The fact it hits both 5' and 10' (most weapons are either/or). It also gives bonuses to trip and disarm attempts. Theoritically a person completely surrounded can kill 24 people (with great cleave). Since you get AoO as people close from 10' to 5' you can do this multiple times a round (with combat reflexes). I think I worked out, with an optimum deployment of enemies, a 6th level elf fighter can kill 201 standard guards (AC14, 6hp) as long as they don't roll any ones for the to-hit rolls.

In theory spiked chains can be uber-munchkin. In practive they are sub-par with a poor damage output and a poor threat range / crit multiplier



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The Fighter is a Feat Class.  That's pretty obvious.  If you like Feats, be a Fighter.  In a gestalt campaign, take Fighter for all those Feats.  Let's see, 1 at 1st level, 1 at 2nd level, 1 at 4th level, 1 at 6th, etc., plus 1 starting, plus 1 if you're a human, plus 1 at 3rd, 1 at 6th, 1 at 9th, etc.
> One thing I'm not seeing is that any of the other classes can take nearly this many Feats.




A 10th level human fighter has 10 feats as you pointed out.
Wizards get quite a few feats as well (although they have to be meta-magic or item creation)

All the other classes get class features. This was one of the main changes in 3.5 over 3.0. In 3.0 there were large swathes of levels where certain classes didn't get a single bonus feature (paladins above 10th only got extra cure diseases per day IIRC). In 3.5 every class gains something nearly ever level.

Fighters are the most flexible since they get to choose their feats but all the other classes do get to keep up in the power stakes


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## monboesen (Dec 7, 2005)

> The fact it hits both 5' and 10' (most weapons are either/or). It also gives bonuses to trip and disarm attempts. Theoritically a person completely surrounded can kill 24 people (with great cleave). Since you get AoO as people close from 10' to 5' you can do this multiple times a round (with combat reflexes). I think I worked out, with an optimum deployment of enemies, a 6th level elf fighter can kill 201 standard guards (AC14, 6hp) as long as they don't roll any ones for the to-hit rolls.
> 
> In theory spiked chains can be uber-munchkin. In practive they are sub-par with a poor damage output and a poor threat range / crit multiplier





In practise the spiked chain wielder gets really bad ass (and "broken" to use a D&D 3ed expression) as soon as his arcane buddy casts enlarge/polymorph. He now has 5-15 ft. reach, usually gets higher strength and in addition a +4 size bonus to trips and disarms. With combat reflexes this often allows the spiked chain wielder to trip (and then attack because of Improved Trip feat) anyone who wants to attack him. This tactic leaves opponents of his own or smaller size close to unable to attack him back. Larger opponents can cause a bit of trouble. 

As damage mainly comes from bonuses (str, enhancement, energy damage, power attack) and not the weapons base damage the spiked chain wielder does just fine in the damage department as well.


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## wingsandsword (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> What weapon is Vadania wielding?



Scimitar.



> A Druid worships primordial nature.  Does this mean a Druid can't worship a Deity?



That depends entirely on the setting.  In Forgotten Realms, for example, they must worship a deity.  Whenever you see non-rules "flavor text" to a class, like druids worshipping primordial nature itself or sorcerers having dragon blood, realize that that's just for example, and could change greatly from setting to setting (even within officially published settings).  The core rulebooks use Greyhawk as a default setting, giving examples in that setting.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Kenobi65, what Feats did Olivia take?  And what do they do?




I don't have the character sheet in front of me, so I can't give you every single one, but here's the gist of it:

Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword), Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Critical (longsword) -- a net of +2 on attack rolls, +2 on damage rolls, and double the critical threat range (now 17-20).

Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting -- lets her get 2 attacks per round with the off-hand weapon, at as small a penalty as possible.

Leadership -- really not a particularly necessary feat, but she had a henchman in 2E, and I wanted to keep that (and the cohort that Leadership can grant is the 3E equivalent of the old henchman)

Divine Vigor -- a feat from Complete Warrior that lets her spend a turn undead attempt to gain temporary hit points and a boost to her Move for several minutes.  Since she's an 18th level PC, but turns undead as a 4th level cleric, those Turn Undead attempts probably won't ever get used against actual undead.

Actually, one of the sweetest abilities she has isn't a feat at all; it's a paladin class ability.  Divine Grace lets you add your Cha bonus to all your saving throws.  Since her Cha bonus is pretty absurd, it makes her saves equally absurd.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> A Druid worships primordial nature.  Does this mean a Druid can't worship a Deity?




As others have said, it depends on the campaign setting.  In Greyhawk, gods such as Ehlonna, Obad-Hai, and Beory (among many others) undoubtedly accept druids.  In the Forgotten Realms, druids would worship gods like Mielikki or Silvanus.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Druids can dump their magic spells (ala clerics) but only to cast Summoning spells?




You got it.

Also, note that druids get Cure Light Wounds as a 1st-level spell (same as clerics), but they get their other healing spells one level later than clerics (e.g., Cure Moderate is a 3rd level druid spell), thus making them not quite as good at the healing role as clerics are.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I can see huge roleplaying opportunities in the Animal Companion.  Certainly, I've seen this depicted in many films and books.  But isn't this likely to end tragically with the animal killed?  What chance does an animal have in the gritty, rough and tumble mess of adventuring?
> Can anyone share their experiences on this?




Keep in mind that the animal companion does get significantly tougher as the druid goes up in level.  I've seen animal companions die, but the combat-oriented ones tend to be pretty tough.

I play a druid in Legends of the Shining Jewel (a non-RPGA Living-style campaign), with a "riding dog" animal companion.  When bad guys do start to gang up on the dog, it seems like the party always rallies to save the poor pooch. 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> How does Multiattack work?




Normally, creatures with multiple natural attacks (e.g., claw/claw/bite) have one attack that's designated as "primary" (on which they get their full attack bonus).  All secondary attacks are at a -5 penalty.  Multiattack reduces the penalty on secondary attacks to -2.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> In 1E, the monk was unplayable, in my opinion.
> In 2E, they put the monk in Oriental Adventures.
> Now the monk is back in the Core Classes.  Is she better now?  Hmmm ...
> 
> (puzzles through the monk entry)




No, the 3.x monk is still nothing special. It doesn't know what it's niche is. There are people writing up alternate monks, some of which are likely to be good. Of all the D20 sources I've personally looked at (which isn't all that many, to be fair) only D20 Modern does it right, and that's by leaving the flavor of the class entirely up to the player. (You can have two soldiers with completely different personalities, so why not martial artists?)



> The Fighter is a Feat Class. That's pretty obvious. If you like Feats, be a Fighter.




Not so fast. DnD doesn't have higher level feats for fighters. After about 12th-level, the value of each feat drops. This is one reason why high level fighters are considered weak compared to, say, high level barbarians. The fighter is more flexible at high level, but he's using the same tricks he could have used at 4th level.



> A Druid worships primordial nature. Does this mean a Druid can't worship a Deity?




In some settings druids can worship nature deities. However, the rules for such druids don't change.



> What chance does an animal have in the gritty, rough and tumble mess of adventuring?




Not much. An animal companion gets tougher over levels, but they tend to have lame saving throws and AC scores. Players rarely spend money on magic items for their pets, because the rules for that aren't clear (is my tiger proficient with a mithral breastplate?), they're obvious (that tiger is wearing a mithral breasplate? KILL IT!) and because players don't want to die ... meaning they spend money on magic items for themselves. (Despite the obvious RP penalties for losing a companion, the in-game penalties are pretty weak.) I think 3.x requires you to spend too much on magic items, resulting in ridiculously large treasure hoards, etc etc. However, this is probably better than in 2e where the amount of guidance on treasure acquisition was like this:

"[ Picture of Invisible Stalker ]"

The problem with the spiked chain wasn't one of damage, it was one of synergy, and a commonly misapplied rule. You could trip people with it* from 5 or 10 feet away, and you could Finesse it with Combat Reflexes as well (so keep on tripping!). Being two-handed it worked with Power Attack _very well_, unlike most finessable weapons, which in 3.5 don't work with it at all. It gave a +2 bonus to trip, and any such bonus is huge. (To trip, you use your Strength modifier against your opponent's Strength or Dexterity modifier. If your Strength is the same as your opponent's Strength or Dex, you have a 50% chance of tripping them. However, any kind of bonus to this check becomes huge, as stats don't change as fast as BAB or other such numbers. So, a +2 is big. The +4 you get from Improved Trip is huge.)

If you have Improved Trip, you can (in addition to the +4 bonus) trip someone, hit them as they fall down, then when they get up ... here's where the rule was often misapplied.

It looked like you could trip the person as an attack of opportunity when they tried to get up, and because you probably succeeded and they fell, and you had Improved Trip, you could hit them again... now your victim can't get up. Possibly ever. (Insert "I've fallen and can't get up" joke here.) And they take a lot of damage. This was murder to characters who used melee weapons, unarmed attacks or longbows, and somewhat nasty to spellcasters. This was fixed by the FAQ - they said the person getting up was still treated as prone (you could hit them, but not trip them). In fact, a careful reading of the rules may have rendered this bit of FAQ unnecessary, but the rules should have been clearer in the first place.

* The trick has its bonuses and penalties, altered by the style of the game. Monstrous opponents frequently have high Strength, great size and multiple legs ... these kinds of creatures are very hard to trip. On the other hand, classed humanoid NPCs, a staple in just about any fantasy genre, are _easy_ to trip unless they're specifically designed to avoid tripping. They also tend to use lower point buy and have fewer magic items to boost their stats with. Most DMs aren't going to give NPCs special bonuses to resist tripping as that's practically cheating (or hidden nerfing of the spiked chain wielder, or whatever you want to call it).

As mentioned earlier, the spiked chain gets really broken with spells like _enlarge person_. Honestly, I hate that spell for many reasons. I would make it a 5th-level spell that gives all the bonuses of being one size category larger (+8 rather than +2 Strength, for instance) and have it work on any creature type instead of just humanoids. (Apparently, making it only work on humanoids is some kind of "balance technique".) Of course, I wouldn't let it "stack" with _polymorph_.

Being one size category larger gives you +4 to trip attempts (and to resist tripping). _Enlarge person_ also gives you +2 to Strength, so that's another +1 bonus. Before, I was saying you could get a +6 bonus over your opponent (+4 from Improved Trip, +2 from the spiked chain). Now you can get +11. At this point, it's hard _not_ to defeat your opponent, if he's a classed NPC with reasonable stats who isn't abusing size-changing spells and isn't a dwarf.

Many games don't use classed NPCs that much, more because the lower value of magic items carried by NPCs makes them weak, rather than because of the tripping issue. However, classed NPCs are flexible, and DMs often try to use them as its easier for players to discern their motivations, easier to draw up their strategies, etc - and DMs often want to be players as well, and playing NPCs gives them that feeling. However, I don't think a potentially broken rule should "require" DMs to use fewer classed NPCs.

I don't run DnD anymore, but I still play it. I run Modern, where the "use monsters option" wasn't available. In my Modern game, a spiked chain would have been horribly broken, especially before hearing about the FAQ.



> Wizards have an immediate advantage in 3.5. They are not limited to how many spells per level they can know.




Not only that, they learn two spells for free, at no risk of not "getting them", every level. So, if your wizard wants _fireball_, they don't have to kill another mage and leaf through their spellbook, then face a 20% (or whatever) chance of not learning the spell. They can just learn it through research.



> I note that you can be proficient with all Simple and Martial Weapons if you are a fighter, or certain other classes. THAT is a huge strengthening of the fighter class: imagine had many Weapon Proficiencies you would have had to take in 2nd Edition to gain proficiency in all those weapons!




And maybe a ranger nerf? Not that I'm complaining. I just wanted to know why 2e rangers got more weapon proficiencies than 2e fighters.



> Gnomes look a lot like overgrown fey of the leprechaun/grig type.
> One look at a 3.5 gnome, and you know you have trouble.




Is this good or bad? Anyway, lots of people don't like 3.x gnomes as they have almost no flavor of their own. I thought of them as a squish of elves, halflings and dwarves until I read an article about them in the new Eberron setting: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a



> The gnomes of ten thousand years ago were feral and primitive -- a far cry from the civilization seen today. The hobgoblin sages believed that the gnomes were rodents that had been twisted by a conduit to Thelanis, or stunted, thin-blooded wererats that had lost the ability to shift forms. Proponents of this theory cited the small size of the gnomes, the strong instinctive bond within a family, the gnomish preference for burrows, and the racial ability to communicate with burrowing mammals.




I'd rather go with jungle rats than crossbreeding experiments 



> Now, you can just ... have it. Start with an elf with 19 dexterity, go from there (actually, start with an elf of 20 dexterity, because they get a + 2 to dexterity, and they aren't capped at 19 at the start.)




You could, but it's a bad idea. It costs a lot of ability points to get that high. The point buy distribution is weighed - your highest stat will probably be a 15 or 16 (before modifications). Going above a 14 starts to cost you extra.

I don't know if anyone mentioned point buy in this thread, so I'll explain it here.

Every stat starts at an 8. Note that the last step is adding racial modifiers.

You get a certain number of points to spend: 25 is the low end of the standard, 32 is the high end. I use 28 for my Modern campaign. In many campaigns, NPCs use a lower point buy than PCs.

If you want to go up to 14, spend 6 points (one point per ability point). Going from 14 to 15 costs _2 points_, and same from 15 to 16. 16 to 17 costs 3, and 17 to 18 also costs 3. Now, finally, add racial modifiers. You'll see that, before racial mods, you pretty much never see stats below an 8. The old stat system didn't work with point buy (despite perhaps a few attempts to try that).

Why the "magic 15"? If you look at low level NPCs, their highest stat is usually a 15. It's because of mages. In 2e, I didn't know how much Int to give mages. If they weren't high level, they could get by just as easily with a 9 as with an 18. Something was ... wrong, there.

A 1st-level wizard could have an Int of 15. At 4th-level, it goes up to 16. (A 4th-level mage can cast up to 2nd-level spells, easy with an Int of 16.) At 8th-level, his Int goes up to 17, and he can cast 4th-level spells. At 12th level, his Int goes up to 18, and he can can 6th-level spells. At 16th level, his Int goes up to 19, and he can cast 8th-level spells. (With an Int that high, he can now cast any spell he adds to his spellbook.) At 20th, he'll probably increase his Int again (his Int bonus will go up, giving him more spells per day, higher spell DCs, etc).

Note that this happens without buying stat-boosting items. An Int-boosting item is just icing on the cake.



> I've heard stories of nerfing of magic in 3.5, but if the wizard need spend only an hour, that's a MASSIVE empowering of the class.




There was slight nerfing, in most aspects, from 3.0 to 3.5. Most of the changes were needed IMO. The amount of time to prep spells changed from 2e to 3.0 (and didn't change from 3.0 to 3.5).



			
				Voadam said:
			
		

> The 3e/3.5 nerfing is in the power of the spells compared to how they were before. 10d6 max damage for fireballs when every monster now gets con bonuses like a PC. Hold person gets a save every round to break it. It is really tough to get a high target for the saves, lots of monsters are immune to mind affecting spells, evocations mostly do less damage than a comparable level warrior, many monsters have spell resistance that makes most spells fail entirely, rogues and monks take no damage on successful saves against area spells, etc.




There's the issue of save DCs. Save-or-suffer spells got a lot more powerful in 3.x than in 2e. For starters, save DCs go up at rate that players can control to some extent. By targeting a creature's weak save, they can greatly improve their chances of getting a save-or-suffer spell to work. The spread of good vs poor saving throw bonuses makes this possible.

It is not always obvious what a creature's weak save is, but if it's a big dumb creature, it _probably_ means it has a good Fort and poor Will save. (As always, there are exceptions. Big aberrations are one of the better exceptions. So are liches disguised as living creatures.) It's also pretty easy to tell what a classed NPC's weak saves are.

Some save-or-suffer spells are save-or-die spells in disguise. _Hold monster_ is an example of this. A creature that fails its save is paralyzed and helpless. You can "coup-de-grace" them, which means that, as a full-round action, anyone doing a reasonable amount of damage can instantly kill them. (Rogues are just nastier at this, since they can sneak attack anyone who is helpless.)

While a fighter can dish out more damage than a mage, a mage can instantly take an opponent out of the fight. Fighters seem weak when they go up against NPC mages, who can easily take them right out of the fight. Whether fighters seem weak in your campaign depends, in part, on how often you use NPC mages. So I guess the moral of the story is that a 2e mage should use _cone of cold_ while a 3e mage should use _hold monster_. (The effective nerf of its duration isn't as big as it seems - you should kill the held creature quickly anyway.)


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## IcyCool (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The bastard sword of Movie legend is now an exotic weapon.  Even the fighter must use a Feat to use the bastard sword one-handed.




That's not entirely true.

The fighter must use a Feat to use the bastard sword one-handed *without penalty*.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 7, 2005)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> There was slight nerfing{of spells}, in most aspects, from 3.0 to 3.5. Most of the changes were needed IMO.




I'd tend to agree with that.  Most of the changes were to tone down spells that many people felt were unbalanced.

Among the big "nerfs" were the H spells: Harm, Haste, Hold Person:
- Harm could bring a 500-hit-point ancient red dragon down to single digits with a single spell.  Now it's 10hp of damage per level (max. 150).
- Haste gave you an additional standard action per round...which meant you could easily cast two spells in a round.  Doesn't allow that anymore.
- Hold Person was finally realized for what it was: a save-or-die spell (because it rendered the victim helpless, and thus a target for a coup de grace).  Now, the victim gets a new save every round, so at least they have a chance.

Another area of nerfing was in spell durations.  Fly and Invisibility are two that went from hours of use to minutes of use, but the other biggies were the "buff" spells (Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc.).  Apparently, the designers felt that spellcasters were just using all of their 2nd level spell slots on buffs (with the 1 hour / level duration in 3E, higher-level PCs could have them up all day), rather than spending GP on magic items that would do the same thing.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 7, 2005)

How hard is a Difficulty Check (DC) roll?
  Seriously.
  Because in the skills everything relies on a DC roll, and I see it in other aspects of the game as well.
  But DC numbers don't mean anything to me, if I can't relate them to specifically difficult things, or a specific level of difficulty.

  I will give my preliminary estimate (my best guess) of the DC difficulties.  Would you, then, give me feedback on that?  And would you give your own estimates of what the numbers mean?

  (Everything given below assumes you've never tried it before, except DC 0 and 1)

  DC 0:  Automatic (breathing when you can breathe normally) 
  DC 1:  Very easy (walking when you are a healthy adult in an easy situation)
  DC 2:  Moderately easy (jogging at a slow pace on a smooth sidewalk when you are an athlete)
  DC 3:  Some effort required (walking through shallow to moderate snow with boots on)
  DC 4:  Slightly difficult (running at full speed down a sidewalk, walking through an overgrown meadow, sawing light wood with a hand saw, trying to stay awake for 24 hours)
  DC 5:  Moderately difficult (climbing a dry tree in good weather, when the tree has plenty of branches and you're in good shape, sawing hardwood with a hand saw)
  DC 6:  Difficult (trying to climb a wet tree with many branches when you're in good shape, attempting to rollerblade or rollerskate, attempting the moderate slope of a ski run, trying to stay awake for 48 hours)
  DC 7:  More difficult (trying to play a violin passably, trying to climb a ladder covered in ice from an icestorm, trying ice skating, trying to ski down a moderately advanced slope, trying to climb a tree with few branches, trying to saw through a thick tree with a hand saw)
  DC 8:  Very difficult. (trying to play a flute passably, trying to stay awake for 72 hours, trying to use a skill saw and a hammer and nails to make fine furniture, trying to wallpaper a room properly)
  DC 10:  So difficult it is probably impossible to do this without training.  Or, extremely hazardous, such as climbing a tree trunk without hardly any branches, swimming in deep and fast flowing (warm) water, skiing on advanced slopes, attempting iceskating figures or maneuvers, attempting ballet movements, maintaining fast dancing.  Or mentally challenging, figuring out calculus equations, working out physics, or solving complicated chemistry.
  DC 13:  Playing a violin, flute, or piano well enough to please a non-demanding audience.  Mastering the less difficult maneuvers of ballet or ice skating.  Skiing as an expert.  Being an somewhat competent mathematician, physicist, or mechanic.  Making it to internship as a doctor.
  DC 16:  Playing a violin, flute, or piano well enough to please a typical, musical audience.  Mastering the moderately difficult maneuvers of ballet or ice skating.  Becoming a competent ski instructor.  Being a fully competent mathematician, physicist, mechanic, archetect, or a somewhat competent engineer.  Making it through internship in a good hospital.
  DC 20:  Being a concert violinist, flautist, pianist, or a great ballet dancer of ice skater.  Being an olympic skier.  Being a brilliant mathematician, physicist, mechanic, or archetect.  Being a very fine engineer.  Being a truly competent specialist doctor.
  DC 23:  Being the best or nearly the best violinist or singer in the world.  Being a champion olympic athlete.  Being one of the best of the best as a doctor.  Being a prodigy in one subject, having understanding and insight completely beyond the scope of practically anyone else.
  DC 25:  The theoretical limits of human achievement, such as Newton's invention of calculus and physics, or Conan surviving the Wheel of Pain for 15 years.
  DC 30:  This level of ability represents superhuman capacity, such as shown by many heroes and villains in stories and films.
  DC 35:  This level of ability represents very great superhuman capacity, which when shown in films and books is obviously of magical origin (since it so transcends reality it is not believable in any other way.)
  DC 40:  ?

  I request feedback, as much as you care to give, on this one.  I need to know what the numbers mean, badly.

  Yours Sincerely
  Edena_of_Neith


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## kenobi65 (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> How hard is a Difficulty Check (DC) roll?




There's a chart, either in the Skills chapter of the PHB, or somewhere in the DMG, that shows "how difficult is difficult."

It essentially duplicates the chart you've proposed, but within the context of D&D characters and specific skills (i.e., a high-level rogue being able to hear a mouse...)

Edit: a truncated version of this list is in the SRD chapter on Skills:

Very easy (0) 	              Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
Easy (5) 	                           Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
Average (10) 	             Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
Tough (15) 	             Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
Challenging (20) 	             Swim in stormy water (Swim)
Formidable (25) 	             Open an average lock (Open Lock)
Heroic (30) 	             Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
Nearly impossible (40)	Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)

And, what you'll see is that DCs are *not* as hard as you think they are.  If you have a PC who's specifically focused on a particular skill (i.e., maximum ranks, good ability score, Skill Focus, other feats, equipment bonuses, synergy bonuses from other skills), it's really not very difficult to get a skill modifier of +20 or higher at the mid-levels (a 10th level PC or so).  

Diplomacy, in particular, is a skill that it's very easy to completely tweak out.  Let's take a 10th level half-elf, with Diplomacy as a class skill.
- 13 ranks
- Assume an 18 Charisma, so +4 ability score bonus
- +2 racial bonus
- +2 bonus from 5 ranks in Bluff
- +2 bonus from 5 ranks in Knowledge (nobility / royalty)
- +2 bonus from 5 ranks in Sense Motive (these last 3 are unnamed bonuses, so they stack)
- +3 bonus from Skill Focus (Diplomacy) feat
- +2 bonus from Negotiator feat
- +3 circumstance bonus from Circlet of Persuasion

There's a +33 bonus right there, and I didn't even try very hard.   At that point, DC34 is automatic, and DC40 can be made 70% of the time.

Keep in mind that, even with 0 ranks and a +0 ability score modifier, you can make a DC10 skill check 55% of the time (and 100% of the time if you can Take 10).


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## Aaron L (Dec 7, 2005)

Actuallt, its something like 

DC 1 auto success, no effort required

DC 5 really easy

DC 10 Requires effort, 50% chance of doing it with no training, but simple with sufficient training

DC 15 Getting hard, you better have some training and natural skill if you want to do this right

DC 20 Hard.  requires skill and luck to reliable accomplish

DC 25 real hard

DC 30+ real real hard, etc

But consider that a 1st level commoner can achieve a +9 on his main skill check with ease.  So that makes a DC 10 an auto success for him.  A 10th level commoner (yes, they are out there, the wise old men of the village) will have a +19 in his main skill (13 ranks, +3 from ability bonus, +3 from skill focus) so you can gauge things that way.  A 15th level adventurer  can have a +23 in a class skill tied to a class important ability easily.    

DCs are all listed under the skills.  In the DMG somewhere there is a chart with relative universal DC examples, I think.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> How hard is a Difficulty Check (DC) roll?
> Seriously.
> Because in the skills everything relies on a DC roll, and I see it in other aspects of the game as well.
> But DC numbers don't mean anything to me, if I can't relate them to specifically difficult things, or a specific level of difficulty.
> ...




These aren't skill checks. Except maybe sawing the wood.

Note that you make a check like so: d20 + skill modifier, against the DC. The average roll of a DC is 10. I think maybe you need to boost the DCs of all these checks by 10. But what do I know?



> DC 5:  Moderately difficult (climbing a dry tree in good weather, when the tree has plenty of branches and you're in good shape, sawing hardwood with a hand saw)




The DC for climbing a tree is listed in the Climb description. I think the DC is 10, which is considered "easy".



> DC 6:  Difficult (trying to climb a wet tree with many branches when you're in good shape, attempting to rollerblade or rollerskate, attempting the moderate slope of a ski run, trying to stay awake for 48 hours)




Back to climbing the tree... usually you add a -2 penalty to the skill check (or boost the DC by 2) when there's a negative condition.



> DC 7:  More difficult (trying to play a violin passably, trying to climb a ladder covered in ice from an icestorm, trying ice skating, trying to ski down a moderately advanced slope, trying to climb a tree with few branches, trying to saw through a thick tree with a hand saw)
> DC 8:  Very difficult. (trying to play a flute passably, trying to stay awake for 72 hours, trying to use a skill saw and a hammer and nails to make fine furniture, trying to wallpaper a room properly)
> DC 10:  So difficult it is probably impossible to do this without training.  Or, extremely hazardous, such as climbing a tree trunk without hardly any branches, swimming in deep and fast flowing (warm) water, skiing on advanced slopes, attempting iceskating figures or maneuvers, attempting ballet movements, maintaining fast dancing.  Or mentally challenging, figuring out calculus equations, working out physics, or solving complicated chemistry.




No, a 10 is easy. I'm positive you mean 20.

Seriously, look at the skill descriptions. Sometimes the skill descriptions are too short, however, so it's hard to know how skilled you have to be in order to be competent at a skill. Generally speaking, a +10 is sufficient for non-adventuring purposes.

PS for Diplomacy, follow the house rule link in my signature. (It's nearer the top of the page.)



> - +2 bonus from 5 ranks in Knowledge (nobility / royalty)




This is why I don't use synergy bonuses. They're silly. How does this skill give you a +2 bonus to Diplomacy when dealing with anarchist peasants? I think synergy bonuses should be up to the DM. Let the players ask for the bonus, and let the DM apply it "when appropriate".


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## Voadam (Dec 7, 2005)

Here is the chart for skills from the srd. If you have not seen the srd before it is most of the rules from the 3.5 PH, DMG, and MM without any of the flavor text or pictures and it is put online for free by WotC.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35

So here is the skill DC chart from the srd:

Difficulty Class
Some checks are made against a Difficulty Class (DC). The DC is a number (set using the skill rules as a guideline) that you must score as a result on your skill check in order to succeed.

Table: Difficulty Class Examples
Difficulty (DC)	Example (Skill Used)
Very easy (0) 	Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
Easy (5) 	Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
Average (10) 	Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
Tough (15) 	Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
Challenging (20) 	Swim in stormy water (Swim)
Formidable (25) 	Open an average lock (Open Lock)
Heroic (30) 	Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
Nearly impossible (40)	Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)


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## William Ronald (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena, this thread is entertaining and a good idea. The questions you ask may well help people who are moving from earlier editions int0 3.5, as well as new players.

I will second what kenobi65 said about difficulty classes.  You can find the sample chart on page 31 of the DMG.  Also, many of the skill descriptions have examples of DCs.  (As for the example that he used, this was without the use of any enhancement bonuses from a Cloak of Charisma.  Friendly and Helpful can mean different things to different people and creatures.  So, a helpful reaction from Alustriel in the Realms is one thing and a helpful reaction from Orcus might be another thing.  In the first example, your PC is likely to get help, advice, and some assistance.  Orcus may see being helpful to someone as transforming them into a powerful undead being and taking them to the Abyss to be a favored slave or overseer of slaves.  Nightfall can perhaps comment on this.   )

As for spiked chains, a good strategy to use against a spiked chain wielder is to keep your distance and attack with spells and melee weapons. Heat metal might be a very useful spell in this instance.  A hold person spell can be used to stop the spiked chain wielder, and one character can disarm him while another closes in to attack him.)  Sundering the spiked chain can also work, as I have seen PCs use this against foes.

A good guide to strategy in D&D 3.5 is to know your foes strengths and weaknesses.  Going toe to toe with a raging barbarian might not be a good idea.  However, targeting him with spells that he has poor saves against is a good strategy.  So is changing his physical environment (transmute rock to mud) or using summoned creatures.  Remember that a player's best asset is his mind.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> How hard is a Difficulty Check (DC) roll?
> Seriously.
> Because in the skills everything relies on a DC roll, and I see it in other aspects of the game as well.
> But DC numbers don't mean anything to me, if I can't relate them to specifically difficult things, or a specific level of difficulty.
> ...




You've overestimated the difficulty of most things. I believe you have not yet gotten to the Take 10 rule, which basically says that for most skills, in an ordinary, non-stressful situation, you can "Take 10", with the result that you will get a "10" on your d20 roll without rolling. This represents an average everyday effort. This is true for all skills that do not specifically say you cannot Take 10 with them (such as Use Magic Device, whose text prohibits the use of Take 10).

So, for example, most everyday people in a campaign world will make their living with a Craft or Profession skill. They will generally Take 10 on a daily basis, with the result being the ordinary result. Most adventurers Take 10 on common skill checks like Search (for searching a room), or other mundane tasks (like climbing a tree outside of combat). This has the result that a DC 10 skill check is something most people can do on a regular basis under normal conditions.

An individual with training in a skill (say 4 ranks, the max for a 1st level character) could normally make a DC 14 check. Most artisans and peasants are likely to have Skill Focus in their primary occupation, meaning they could Take 10 and make a DC 17 skill check on a normal basis. For example, the village blacksmith, as a 1st level human commoner (see the DMG for the NPC classes), with 4 ranks in Craft: Blacksmithing and Skill Focus (Craft: Blacksmithing) and no stat bonuses would have a +7 modifier to all Craft: Blacksmithing tasks. If he Takes 10, he can regularly succeed at a DC 17 check.

(As a side note, you may ask, what is a stressful situation? Combat is the primary stressful situation that crops up in games. Other things can be stressful too - trying to climb a mountain during an avalanche would be a stressful situation. Trying to disarm a trap while the floor slowly tilts to drop you into a pit of lava would be another. This basically is a DM call).

So, setting DC 10 as the standard for what most people can accomplish untrained at a skill (assuming that most people have the "standard array" of stats of 10, 11, 10, 11, 10, 11and thus no stat bonuses or penalties), you get an array more or less like this:

DC 0: An easy task, something most people could do even while being attacked by wolves.
DC 5: A task that an individual with ordinary training could routinely accomplish under stress.
DC 10: A task that almost anyone could accomplish under normal circumstances, but would be tough for an untrained person, and of medium difficulty for a trained person if they were under attack at the time.
DC 15: A task that a trained individual could regularly expect to succeed at under normal circumstances.
DC 20: A task that will usually require more than normal effort for a trained individual and would be very hard for an untrained individual.
DC 25: A task that a trained individual could accomplish through repetition (using Take 20), or if they got lucky; or a highly skilled person (say, a very focused 3rd or 4th level character)could make. (For example, a 3rd level half-elven expert, with 6 ranks in Diplomacy, 5 ranks in Bluff, 5 ranks in Sense Motive, 5 ranks in Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, the Skill Focus (Diplomacy) feat and the Negotiator feat would have a +19 on Diplomacy checks, and could make a DC 25 Diplomacy check with a Take 10).
DC 30: A very difficult task.
DC 40+: An insanely difficult task, usually only accomplishable by characters working in concert (via Aid Another) or by higher level characters very focused on the skill in question.

Just so you know, you can Take 20 with some skills, but much less often. Take 20 basically requires that there be no penalty for failure with the skill, and you take 20 times as long as normal for the skill check. The net result is that you get a result of a "20" plus your skill modifier. So, for example, if you wanted to Search a chest for traps, you could normally Take 20 with the Search skill, because there is no penalty for not finding a trap that might be on it. A normal Search check takes one round, to Take 20 would require 20 rounds. Your end result would be 20 + your Search bonus. Using Disable Device to disarm a trap that you found is another story - if you fail your Disable Device check by 5 or more, you set the trap off - so there is a penalty for failure. You cannot Take 20 to disable a trap. You could, however, under normal circumstances, Take 10.


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## MerricB (Dec 7, 2005)

Edena, one feature of the skill system is that you can "Take 10" when not under pressure. So, instead of rolling the die, you just assume it rolled a 10.

If you have time (and there's no penalty for failure), you can "Take 20" on many skills - basically, it takes 20 times as long and it is treated as if you rolled a 20. That tends to get used for Search and Open Lock rolls a lot - but not Disable Device, as that triggers a trap.

DC 0 - very easy, you can do it asleep.
DC 5 - pretty easy. Assuming you're not distracted, you'll be able to do it. e.g. Climbing a wall with the aid of a rope.
DC 10 - easy, if somewhat chancy. 
DC 15 - moderate
DC 20 - hard
DC 30 - difficult
DC 40 - nearly impossible.

Mostly you find that the DCs are given in the books. I rarely need to make them up on the fly.

Cheers!


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

Thank you, folks, for putting these up.  I'm studying them now.

  (reposts your charts, compares them, and looks at the SRD (a lot).)

  Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
  Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
  Average (10) Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
  Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
  Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water (Swim)
  Formidable (25) Open an average lock (Open Lock)
  Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
  Nearly impossible (40) Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)

  DC 1 auto success, no effort required
  DC 5 really easy
  DC 10 Requires effort, 50% chance of doing it with no training, but simple with sufficient training
  DC 15 Getting hard, you better have some training and natural skill if you want to do this right
  DC 20 Hard. requires skill and luck to reliable accomplish
  DC 25 real hard
  DC 30+ real real hard, etc

  DC 0: An easy task, something most people could do even while being attacked by wolves.
DC 5: A task that an individual with ordinary training could routinely accomplish under stress.
DC 10: A task that almost anyone could accomplish under normal circumstances, but would be tough for an untrained person, and of medium difficulty for a trained person if they were under attack at the time.
DC 15: A task that a trained individual could regularly expect to succeed at under normal circumstances.
DC 20: A task that will usually require more than normal effort for a trained individual and would be very hard for an untrained individual.
DC 25: A task that a trained individual could accomplish through repetition (using Take 20), or if they got lucky; or a highly skilled person (say, a very focused 3rd or 4th level character)could make. (For example, a 3rd level half-elven expert, with 6 ranks in Diplomacy, 5 ranks in Bluff, 5 ranks in Sense Motive, 5 ranks in Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, the Skill Focus (Diplomacy) feat and the Negotiator feat would have a +19 on Diplomacy checks, and could make a DC 25 Diplomacy check with a Take 10).
DC 30: A very difficult task.
DC 40+: An insanely difficult task, usually only accomplishable by characters working in concert (via Aid Another) or by higher level characters very focused on the skill in question.

DC 0 - very easy, you can do it asleep.
DC 5 - pretty easy. Assuming you're not distracted, you'll be able to do it. e.g. Climbing a wall with the aid of a rope.
DC 10 - easy, if somewhat chancy.
DC 15 - moderate
DC 20 - hard
DC 30 - difficult
DC 40 - nearly impossible.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

My impression from the combined charts above:

  DC 0 (VERY EASY)  This is something you can do without special training, and without thinking about it.  Actions such as walking, talking, eating, drinking, breathing, and the like.

  DC 5 (EASY)  This is something that is hazardous to do without Taking 10 (without actually thinking about it before doing it), but can be done without special training and can still be done without thinking much on it.  Climbing a tree, basic rollerblading, basic rollerskating, basic skiing, basic iceskating, climbing a ladder, standing on a steep rooftop, shovelling snow off of a slanted rooftop, driving in a torrential downpour and high winds, and the like (in other words, things that would get Yours Truly killed or seriously injured if he wasn't careful and thought about what he was doing.)

  DC 10 (AVERAGE)  This is something that is very hazardous to do without Taking 10.  People just don't attempt things like this without thinking it out first (Taking 10) or sitting and really thinking it out first (Taking 20.)  Climbing a tree with few branches, high speed rollerblading, high speed rollerskating, moderate skiing, high speed iceskating, climbing a very tall ladder, running across a steep rooftop, shovelling snow on a steep rooftop, driving in a blizzard or hurricane force winds, or trying to play a series of notes on key on a violin/flute/piano (that is, many people die or are injured (or just fail miserably and produce no notes) attempting these things, primarily because they didn't think it out first, or 'rolled' badly, or someone else didn't think it out or 'rolled' badly.)
  It is best, with a DC 10 challenge, to have some training in the endeavor attempted, but it is not obligatory.  Anyone can attempt these efforts, but trained people take the least risk.
  A typical Player Character isn't going to have any problems with performing any task with a DC of 10.

  DC 15 (TOUGH)  This represents something that nobody who is untrained should attempt (or is able to, sometimes) attempt.  A trained person can attempt this action with ease.  Of course, untrained people sometimes make the attempt anyways, and fatalities and injuries are common (not to mention simple failure and frustration.)
  Typing 40 words per minute, solving a calculus equation, calculating a solution to a simple engineering or archetectural problem, flying a small aircraft, painting a house, wallpapering a house, properly varnishing a hardwood floor, repairing a broken part on a car, attempting common ballet or iceskating maneuvers, skiing down a very advanced slope with many trees, swimming some distance in very cold water, attempting to do a professional's job (you pick the profession) when you aren't a professional but the task would be simple for the professional, and so on.

  DC 20 (CHALLENGING)  This sounds to me like the staple of professionals, both mental and physical.  That is, the routine tasks (impossible or nearly impossible to an untrained person, challenging to a trained person, easy for a trained person who 'Takes 20' and considers and studies the matter first) of an auto-mechanic, carpenter, electrician, architect, engineer, construction worker, steeple-jack, aircraft pilot, computer software designer, professional ballet dancer, professional circus performer, or the like.  
  It also represents people doing fairly exotic things, and succeeding.  Skiing down a mountain, climbing a thin silken rope, dead lifting 300 pounds, doing 10 pull-ups (or similar things far, far beyond the capacity of Yours Truly.)

  DC 25 (FORMIDABLE)  This sounds like Limited to Professionals only.  And it is an effort for them, typically needing a 'Take 20' roll.  Professionals can't, typically, just do these kinds of things without thought or preparation.  Repairing a badly damaged automobile engine, designing a new piece of computer software that reliably works, designing the electrical system of a large building, taking the Space Shuttle through a tricky maneuver, reentry into Earth's atmosphere for an astronaut, playing at the level of a Concert Violinist or Concert Pianist, attempting difficult ballet or iceskating moves, difficult and impressive circus acts, all sound like DC 25 acts.

  DC 30 (HEROIC)  This is the kind of thing that makes for Television Specials.  The best feats of Circ Du Soleil, winning the gold/silver/bronze medals in an Olympic Event, winning the Master's Tour in Golf, being a world famous Concert Violinist or Pianist and bringing down the house with a master performance, solving an extremely difficult engineering or architectural problem, attempting supremely difficult ballet or iceskating maneuvers, running for 30 miles, walking for 60 miles without stopping, barrelling right through a wall of linebackers (when you're the quarterback and you have the football:  it never happens), running at 20 miles per hour (the world record is 21 miles per hour), leaping over Michael Jordan's head in basketball and scoring (that also never happens), trying to ski down from the very top of Mt Rainier (I saw someone try it and fail ...), throwing the basketball from one end of the court and having it score at the other end, intimidating an angry grizzily bear without using your voice or a tool.
  Landing a military aircraft on an aircraft carrier for the first time, or performing the top abilities of a trained SEAL or Army Ranger would fall under DC 27 or 28.  Take-off for an astronaut (remaining fully functional, maneuvering the craft, dealing with all sorts of unexpected emergencies, all the while under 7 Gravities) would count as a DC 27 to 30 act.
  Sitting out in the snow all night with your fellow monks, in temperatures near zero, with no clothing on ... and being perfectly fine the next day, and the snow around you melted.

  DC 40:  Surviving a 100 mile per hour head-on collision with a semi, when you're the one in the small car.  Recovering fully without brain or nerve damage when you've been nearly decapitated (someone is doing that right now.)  Walking a mile to call for help, carrying your severed arm (severed at the shoulder) with you.  Surviving a fall from 30,000 feet.  Surviving a fall onto concrete from 500 feet up.  Swimming a mile in Antarctic Waters to the Antarctic Mainland (water temperature 28 degrees) without any protection or help (someone did that.)  Some of the things you read in Ripley's Believe It or Not.  Charging a machine gun nest, taking a full strafe, and taking the nest (Audy Murphy.)  Putting back on your armor, getting back on your horse, charging the enemy, and scaling the enemy wall when you have an arrow in you (Joan of Arc.)  Trying to get up and walk right after major exploratory surgery in the chest.  Trying to survive major exploratory surgery without anaethesia or any other aid.  Placing a hot iron against yourself and branding yourself without feeling anything, through sheer will and meditation.

  DC:  I do these things automatically:  why do you ask?
  DC 5: I can do this.  It's easy.
  DC 10:  I can do this.  It's hard, but I can do things when I put my mind to them.
  DC 15:  I can do this because I'm trained, but don't you try it.  Enthusiasm and effort isn't enough here.
  DC 20:  I can do this.  I'm educated, have years of practice, and I'm going to think on it.
  DC 25:  I can do this, maybe.  I'm a real professional, but this is asking an awful lot.
  DC 30:  I'm one of the best in the world at this, so it's possible if I'm really at my peak.
  DC 40:  You're asking me to perform a superhuman feat, a miracle.


  Is this closer to being right?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

Kenobi, the rest of you ... if Divine Grace allows you to use your Charisma bonus for all your Saves, does that stack with your other attribute bonuses to Saves (Dexterity, Wisdom, possibly other stats.) ?

  If you are allowed your Charisma bonus to Attack, does that stack with Strength and/or Dexterity bonuses?

  -

  So you are saying that, with the Spiked Chain, you can Trip an opponent.
  If you have Improved Trip, you provoke no Attack of Opportunity for using Trip.
  If the (hapless) opponent you tripped attempts to get back up, you get an immediate Attack of Opportunity on him.

  And one of you says:  That Attack of Opportunity can be another Trip attempt.
  And one of you says:  No, that's not right.

  Since Trip is only one attack (out of all the attacks you are allowed) I am guessing that if you successfully Trip an opponent, you make all the rest of your attacks against a Prone Opponent, with the Attack Bonuses granted.

  Thus:

  (You declare Full Round Attack.  You get 4 attacks, being high level.)

  You win initiative.  You attack with a Spiked Chain.

  Your move:

  1st attack:  You successfully Trip the opponent.
  2nd attack:  You attack the Prone opponent with bonuses.
  3rd attack:  As 2nd attack.
  4th attack:  As 3rd attack.

  Opponent's move:  Opponent tries to get up.  You get an Attack of Opportunity.  Opponent cannot make Full Round Attack (took Standard Move to get up) but may make one attack (if he successfully stands up.)

  1st Scenario:

  Your Attack of Opportunity:  You Trip the opponent again.  He cannot attack you this round.  He starts the next round Prone.

  2nd Scenario:

  Your Attack of Opportunity:  You Attack (with bonuses?) and hit, doing damage.  
  Opponent stands and makes one attack on you.
  Beginning of next round.

  Is this right?
  And if so, which of the scenarios above is right?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

For the record:

  That young woman on page 220 of the DMG is beautiful (the way elves should be.)  
  That elven chain mail she is wearing is beautiful (also, the way elven chain should be.)

  Does anyone know the name of this Iconic young elven lady?  Or what her classes are?  

  Just curious.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

Comments on Feats (please consider any comment I make to be a question!   )

  Cleave:  My blow is so powerful it goes clear through you and into the next guy ...

  Combat Casting:  A + 4 bonus to Concentration checks when Casting on the Defensive.  Doesn't seem like much, but then in 3.5 + 4 is typically a big thing, so ...
  (In my opinion, the best defense is a good offense.)

  Combat Expertise:  Great Feat for defense.  Great Feat if you are a high level fighter surrounded by weak opponents.  But isn't the best defense a good offense?  

  Combat Reflexes:  So, you are caught Flat-Footed, but when the goblin runs by, you can still strike at him.  You can't make more than one AOO on any one opponent per round, can you?  If you can, how?  

  Craft Magical Arms and Armor:  Standard from older editions.  Sounds useful if you're wearing magical armor and/or arms in the wild.

  Craft Rod:  Standard from older editions.

  Craft Staff:  Standard from older editions.

  Craft Wand:  Standard from older editions.

  Craft Wondrous Item:  Not so standard.  YOU can make anything in the DMG now?

  Deceitful:  Feats aren't so common you can afford to waste them.  Why waste a Feat here?

  Deflect Arrows:  This one screams MONK.

  Deft Hands:  Another waste of a Feat.  I mean, it's nice, but Feats are ... well ... Feats!  You gotta pick and choose carefully.

  Diehard:  It seems to me that this Feat doubles, trebles, or quadruples the starting hit points of a character.  It's a way for the low level rogue or wizard/sorcerer to survive in a hostile world.  It allows a fighter, cleric, monk, or others a chance to retreat from otherwise sure death.  In other words, this Feat sounds like one to take.

  Diligent:  A nice Feat, but why waste the Feat slot?

  Dodge:  It seems to me they force you to take this Feat, which isn't very useful in itself (giving only a + 1) in order to take more powerful, more useful Feats.

  Empower Spell:  Useless for a low level spellcaster.  Great for a high level spellcaster, but how often do you play high level spellcasters?

  Endurance:  Don't leave home without it.  This is the stuff of the Spartan soldier or Roman legionnaire.  And of course, sleeping with armor on is uncomfortable, but it keeps you alive (the orcs jump out of the woods, and you wake up.  3 orcs attack.  Do you A:  fight back, or B: spend the next 10 rounds putting on your armor?  LOL.  The young elven lady on page 220 of the DMG could sleep in her armor with this Feat.)  A Feat to take.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Kenobi, the rest of you ... if Divine Grace allows you to use your Charisma bonus for all your Saves, does that stack with your other attribute bonuses to Saves (Dexterity, Wisdom, possibly other stats.)?




Yes.



> _If you are allowed your Charisma bonus to Attack, does that stack with Strength and/or Dexterity bonuses?_





Yes. Note that this is normally only used as part of a paladin's _smite evil_ ability, which is limited to a handful of uses per day.



> _So you are saying that, with the Spiked Chain, you can Trip an opponent.
> If you have Improved Trip, you provoke no Attack of Opportunity for using Trip.
> If the (hapless) opponent you tripped attempts to get back up, you get an immediate Attack of Opportunity on him._





Yes.



> _Since Trip is only one attack (out of all the attacks you are allowed) I am guessing that if you successfully Trip an opponent, you make all the rest of your attacks against a Prone Opponent, with the Attack Bonuses granted._





Yes.



> _Thus:
> 
> (You declare Full Round Attack.  You get 4 attacks, being high level.)_





At least 16th level by the way.



> _You win initiative.  You attack with a Spiked Chain.
> 
> Your move:
> 
> ...





After your 1st attack in which you trip your opponent, you get an immediate extra follow-up attack against them at the same attack bonus as a result of having the Improved Trip Feat, so you get a bonus attack between the 1st and 2nd attacks. Note also that your second attack is at -5, your third attack at -10, and your fourth at -15 when compared to your first attack.



> _Opponent's move:  Opponent tries to get up.  You get an Attack of Opportunity.  Opponent cannot make Full Round Attack (took Standard Move to get up) but may make one attack (if he successfully stands up.)
> 
> 1st Scenario:
> 
> Your Attack of Opportunity:  You Trip the opponent again.  He cannot attack you this round.  He starts the next round Prone._





No. You cannot trip an opponent who is standing up. An attack of opportunity takes place immdeitaely before the action it is interrupting is resolved. Since his "standing up" action is interrupted before he stands up, he is still prone. You cannot trip a prone individual. Also, even if he is prone, he can still attack, he just suffers and attack penalty when doing so.



> _2nd Scenario:
> 
> Your Attack of Opportunity:  You Attack (with bonuses?) and hit, doing damage.
> Opponent stands and makes one attack on you.
> Beginning of next round._





This is pretty much correct.


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## CronoDekar (Dec 8, 2005)

It's interesting to be responding to these comments, since 3.0 was the first D&D I played. 

The Cha bonus from Divine Grace does indeed stack with the other attribute scores for saves.  Usually though the feat/ability will say if it stacks with other bonuses or it replaces the bonus.  The Weapon Finesse feat, for example, says you may use your Dex mod instead of your Str mod for attack rolls with certain weapons.

Combat Casting was nice in 3.0, but in 3.5 it's not as good.  Mainly because the bonus from Skill Focus was upped from +2 to +3, which means you can just take Skill Focus (Concentration) and get +3 to all concentration checks.  Probably should be bumped up to +5 IMO.

Combat Expertise: True!  But generally the expertiser hopes that even with his penalty to attack, he is able to make his attack roll.

Combat Reflexes: In 3.0 you could only make one AOO against an enemy each round, but that changed in 3.5.  One example where you would get more than one AOO would be if he had two attacks and tried to disarm you with each one, and did not have the Improved Disarm feat.  Each time you would get an AOO.

Though, when you get the AOO because of movement (the running goblin), you'll only be able to take that AOO once, no matter how many threatened spaces he moves past (if that makes sense!)

Craft Wonderous Item:  The items often have spell prerequisites, but yeah, you can theoretically make any item in the DMG (even cursed items!).

Any of the +2/+2 feats (Deceitful, Deft Hands...): Yeah, they're of limited worth.  Generally best when the character concept is focused around the skills.  Or you're trying to seriously cheese out a skill and just a Skill Focus won't do it for you 

Deflect Arrows: Monk even gets it as a possible bonus feat!

Diehard and Endurance: Diehard is nice, but the main reason you won't see a lot of people with it is that Endurance prerequisite.  They made Endurance do more in 3.5, but most characters won't take it, particularly characters like monks and mages.  Plus as far as the armor goes, it's one of those thats usefulness is dependant on how much your DM has you ambushed in the night.  (For other unpopular situation-dependent feats, see Spell Mastery, which is only useful when the DM takes away your spellbook!)

Dodge: Yup.

Empower Spell: While I love spellcasters, I oddly haven't had a one that lasted long enough to be able to say much about this feat!  Though a Lv10 BBEG mage casting an empowered fireball is quite deadly.


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Combat Reflexes:  So, you are caught Flat-Footed, but when the goblin runs by, you can still strike at him.  You can't make more than one AOO on any one opponent per round, can you?  If you can, how?




You get one AoO per opponent per TRIGGER. Normal people only get on AoO so it's usually moot. People with combat reflexes have the option of getting two (or more) AoO on a single person as long as they do different things.

If the person moves in your threat range you get one AoO only. If they then try to cast a spell you get another AoO.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Craft Wondrous Item:  Not so standard.  YOU can make anything in the DMG now?




You can make 'the other' magic items. You can't make epic kit or artifacts but things like pearl of power, etc. you can. They had to have come from somewhere 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Deceitful:  Feats aren't so common you can afford to waste them.  Why waste a Feat here?




Some people like being the best. Good for NPCs. They are slightly better than Skill Focus (two +2s or one +3 - your choice)



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Deflect Arrows:  This one screams MONK.




Don't they get it automatically know (or at least as one of their choices)



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Diehard:  It seems to me that this Feat doubles, trebles, or quadruples the starting hit points of a character.  It's a way for the low level rogue or wizard/sorcerer to survive in a hostile world.  It allows a fighter, cleric, monk, or others a chance to retreat from otherwise sure death.  In other words, this Feat sounds like one to take.




Nice but if your planning on surviving into the negatives your plan needs work 

Some people will, some wont.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Dodge:  It seems to me they force you to take this Feat, which isn't very useful in itself (giving only a + 1) in order to take more powerful, more useful Feats.




Yep feat chains pay off for dedication. Whirlwind attack by itself is a very powerful feat, linking it to other feats allows the game designers to put in really good abilities without breaking everything else.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Empower Spell:  Useless for a low level spellcaster.  Great for a high level spellcaster, but how often do you play high level spellcasters?




Says 'Mr 161st level' 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Endurance:  Don't leave home without it.  This is the stuff of the Spartan soldier or Roman legionnaire.  And of course, sleeping with armor on is uncomfortable, but it keeps you alive (the orcs jump out of the woods, and you wake up.  3 orcs attack.  Do you A:  fight back, or B: spend the next 10 rounds putting on your armor?  LOL.  The young elven lady on page 220 of the DMG could sleep in her armor with this Feat.)  A Feat to take.




You can sleep in light armour anyway (anything below -4 penality IIRC). Endurance just gives you better armour to sleep in. Alternatively at medium / high level all characters can probably afford bracers of armour (or at least leave on rings of deflection, amulets of natural armour, etc.)

It's a nice feat if your DM is really into the details of overland travel, otherwise ...


Grrrr. I type too slow


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

On Combat Expertise:

  The simple version:

  You have a BAB of + 10 / + 5 / 0.
  You can take anywhere from 1 to 10 from that and add it to your Armor Class as a Dodge Bonus.  If you take 5 from it, your BAB does not change (it never does) but you are effectively at + 5 / 0 / - 5.

  The complicated version:

  You have a BAB of + 10 / + 5 / 0 with your good hand, and a BAB of + 10 / + 5 with your off-hand.
  You have a Strength Bonus of + 4.  (It's + 2 with your off-hand.)
  You have a penalty of - 4 for fighting with two One Handed Melee Weapons (you have the Two Weapon Proficiency Feat, or it would have been - 6 / - 10.)

  You take 5 for Combat Expertise.  Your Armor Class gains a + 5 Dodge bonus (which stacks with other Dodge bonuses, an exception to the stacking rule.)

  Your BAB does not change.  It never does.
  But, effectively, you are at + 5 / 0 / - 5, adjusted for Strength to + 9 / + 4 / - 1, and penalized to + 5 / 0 / - 5, for your good hand.  Your final adjusted Attack Bonus is + 5 / 0 / - 5 with your good hand.
  You are at + 5 / 0, adjusted for Strength to + 7 / + 2, and penalized to + 3 / - 2, for your off-hand.  Your final adjusted Attack Bonus is + 3 / - 2 for your off-hand.

  I'm guessing that you cannot use ANY (I repeat, ANY) bonuses other than Base Attack Bonus for Combat Expertise.

  Is this right?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

Does anyone know the name of the young elven lady on page 220 of the DMG?
  She is the Iconic Elf for real!


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## kenobi65 (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Does anyone know the name of the young elven lady on page 220 of the DMG?
> She is the Iconic Elf for real!




I don't think it's meant to be a particular character (though you could ask Todd Lockwood for sure); unlike most of the rest of the DMG and PHB, the illustrations in the Magic Items section don't seem to be of iconic characters.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> On Combat Expertise:
> 
> {snip}
> 
> ...




No; you're making yourself nutty trying to figure out exclusions / inclusions.  Either that, or your example was more complicated than I could follow.

With Combat Expertise, you take a penalty of anywhere from -1 to -5 (but the penalty cannot exceed your BAB) to all attack rolls, and add the same number as a Dodge bonus to your AC.  Nowhere in the description of the feat does it say you can't apply any other bonuses to the attack; just figure out what the bonuses *normally* would be, *then* apply the Combat Expertise penalty.

So...

Let's say you have a 7th level fighter (BAB +7 / +2), with a 16 Strength (+3 bonus), Weapon Focus (longsword) (+1 bonus), and a +1 longsword.  His "normal" attack bonus with the longsword would be +12 / +7.

If he chooses to use his Combat Expertise, he could apply (for example) a -4 penalty to his attack rolls, making his attack bonus for the round +8 / +3, and giving him a +4 dodge bonus to his AC.  Note that he *still* gets his other bonuses (from Strength, a feat, the magic sword, etc.)

Make more sense now?


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## Storm Raven (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I'm guessing that you cannot use ANY (I repeat, ANY) bonuses other than Base Attack Bonus for Combat Expertise.




This is correct. If you have a BAB of +10, you can reduce your attacks by up to -5 and gain up to +5 to your Armor Class (because of the limitation built into the Combat Expertise feat limiting you to a -5 adjustment). But you can never exceed your BAB.

If, for example, you were a 3rd level fighter with a 16 strength, Combat Expertise and the Weapon Focus (Greatsword) feat wielding a masterwork greatsword, your total attack bonus would be +8 with the greatsword (+3 BAB, +3 Str, +1 MW, +1 WF). However, you could only reduce your attacks by -3 (to +5) and gain a maximum of +3 to your AC with Combat Expertise, because your BAB is only +3.


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## Staffan (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> A Druid worships primordial nature.  Does this mean a Druid can't worship a Deity?



They can, but they don't get much out of it (sort of like a fighter can worship a deity). Note that in FR, which I recall is your setting of choice, all divine casters (including druids) get their powers from deities.



> Druids can dump their magic spells (ala clerics) but only to cast Summoning spells?



Specifically, the _summon nature's ally_ series of spells but not other Summoning spells (like _summon swarm_ or _creeping doom_.



> I can see huge roleplaying opportunities in the Animal Companion.  Certainly, I've seen this depicted in many films and books.  But isn't this likely to end tragically with the animal killed?  What chance does an animal have in the gritty, rough and tumble mess of adventuring?



At least at low-mid levels, the animal can make a pretty fierce combatant. Also, unlike the other class-based "pets" (familiars, paladin mounts) there aren't really any consequences for losing your animal companion - you just take a 24-hour timeout and get a new one. You may have to spend a couple of weeks of downtime to train it though.



> How does Multiattack work?



Monsters with multiple different natural attacks have one "primary" attack, and a number of "secondary" attacks which take a -5 penalty. For example, a barghest (first suitable monster in the MM) has a bite at +9 and 2 claws at +4. Multiattack reduces this penalty to -2 (a dretch has 2 claws at +4 and a bite at +2).



> Timeless Body is a weakening of the class.  The old Hierophant gained physical youth, and life extension.



Generally, there's very little around that can stop death by old age anymore. The DMG doesn't have any potions of longevity/elixirs of youth any longer, and all class abilities along the lines of Timeless Body I've seen also include the "when your time's up, you're dead" clause.



> Kenobi, the rest of you ... if Divine Grace allows you to use your Charisma bonus for all your Saves, does that stack with your other attribute bonuses to Saves (Dexterity, Wisdom, possibly other stats.) ?



Yes.



> If you are allowed your Charisma bonus to Attack, does that stack with Strength and/or Dexterity bonuses?



From Smite Evil and similar X/day abilities, yes. If there was a permanent ability that let you use Charisma to attack, I would have it replace Strength (much like the feat Weapon Finesse lets you replace Strength to attack rolls with Dex for certain weapons).



> And one of you says:  That Attack of Opportunity can be another Trip attempt.
> And one of you says:  No, that's not right.



The thing is, the attack of opportunity takes place before the action that prompted it is completed. So, when you get your AoO, your target is still prone. Tripping a prone opponent doesn't do you much good.


> Cleave:  My blow is so powerful it goes clear through you and into the next guy ...



Right.


> Combat Casting:  A + 4 bonus to Concentration checks when Casting on the Defensive.  Doesn't seem like much, but then in 3.5 + 4 is typically a big thing, so ...



Combat Casting is a pretty weak feat, but useful at low levels. After a while, your Concentration check will be so good that you will automatically succeed at casting defensively anyway, since you can increase it at a rate of 1/level, and the DC of casting your highest-level spells only increase at a rate of 1/2 levels.
Also, Combat Casting got devalued, relatively speaking, in 3.5e. In 3.0, Skill Focus only gave a +2 bonus, so Combat Casting gave twice that but to a narrow application of the skill. In 3.5, Skill Focus gives +3, so you're trading +1 in the skill for a limited applicability.


> Combat Expertise:  Great Feat for defense.  Great Feat if you are a high level fighter surrounded by weak opponents.  But isn't the best defense a good offense?



Combat Expertise isn't the greatest of feats on its own, but it is a prerequisite for a whole lot of feats that *are* great, like Improved Trip. It's also good against things you *really* don't want to hit you, like various undead and stuff.


> Combat Reflexes:  So, you are caught Flat-Footed, but when the goblin runs by, you can still strike at him.  You can't make more than one AOO on any one opponent per round, can you?  If you can, how?



You can make multiple AoOs on the same opponent in one round if they provoke them with separate actions. Let's say you're armed with a spiked chain, and someone moves up to you and attack - BAM you get an AoO. He then tries to trip you (without having Improved Trip) - BAM that's another AoO.


> Craft Magical Arms and Armor:  Standard from older editions.  Sounds useful if you're wearing magical armor and/or arms in the wild.
> 
> Craft Rod:  Standard from older editions.
> 
> ...



All the Craft feats (which also include Brew Potion, Forge Ring and Scribe Scroll) are used for making different types of items. Note that you can start making items at a much lower level than in 2e: 1st for scrolls, 3rd for potions and wondrous items, 5th for arms/armor and wands, 9th for rods, 12th for staves and rings. In addition to the feats, you will need to know the right spells and/or fulfill the other prerequisites (e.g. being an elf for making a _cloak of elvenkind_. So while you might have the Craft Wondrous Item feat necessary for making an _amulet of the planes_ as early as 3rd level, you have to wait until 9th level at the earliest to get the _plane shift_ spell needed (13th if you're a wizard).


> Deceitful:  Feats aren't so common you can afford to waste them.  Why waste a Feat here?



The +2 to two skills feats aren't very powerful. They're mostly there for two things: NPC specialists, and for characters who absolutely have to max out a skill. I can definitely see an Artificer (class from the Eberron setting which is extremely reliant on his Use Magic Device skill) take both Skill Focus and Magical Aptitude, for a total of +5.


> Deflect Arrows:  This one screams MONK.



And monks can take it as one of their bonus feats.


> Empower Spell:  Useless for a low level spellcaster.  Great for a high level spellcaster, but how often do you play high level spellcasters?



Mid/high-level campaigns seem to be more common in 3e than in previous editions. This probably has to do with the faster pace of levelling - 3e is designed so that you will gain a level approximately every 13-14 encounters, so probably after 3-4 sessions. In my experience, the pace is even faster than this, but that could be because I like throwing tough things at my PCs.

Wondrous Items is the catch-all category for all items that aren't another type, basically a renamed Miscellaneous magic category.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

Enlarge spell:  Useless in a dungeon.  Outdoors, absolute murder on the enemy if your mage is careful in her preparations (They can't hit our army with a Fire Storm.  We're out of range.  (BOOM, ROAR, FRY, CHAR))

  Eschew materials:  If your DM is a stickler for material components, this is a big one, especially with 6 second rounds, IMO (some DMs are into realism here ...)  If your DM let's material components slide (most do, in my experience) this Feat is less useful.  In my games, I would consider this Feat a very big thing, especially concerning the roleplaying consequences (what, Raistlin walks around, and he DOESN'T smell of material components?)

  Exotic Weapon Proficiency:  You need this to wield a bastard sword one-handed (so you can wield another bastard sword with the off-hand, LOL.  )  You need this for all those dwarven waraxes, spiked chains, double-bladed orc axes, and so on.  It's a truism, this Feat, that you gotta take it, for certain classes.
  Considering what I'm hearing about Spiked Chains and their uses, I think EVERYONE is taking this one!  

  Extend Spell:  Unknown.  Depends on the campaign.  Give me a Fire Shield that lasts twice as long any day.  But you can't double the duration of a Fireball.  If you bring forward the really powerful spells of 2nd edition and translate them directly (no nerfing) the sky is the limit on this one (but then, you're in a Magic Powerful Campaign, and that's a whole other ball of wax.)

  Extra Turning:  Clerics got nerfed I see.  But they got maxed out in so many ways otherwise I can handle it.  The Ogre's Choice, whether to take this one if you are a cleric:  will your basic turning abilities be enough, or should you have taken that Feat, so you can turn those 5 spectres that are now about to kill the party?  

  Far Shot:  God protect us all from the bowmen and bowwomen.  Now they have this Feat.  But it does not double the range like Enlarge Spell does.  
  I knew a barbarian once whose SOP was Axe (thrown) / Sword (attack)  He would have loved this Feat.  Of course, this Feat can do other things, like change world history (consider what it would have done at the Battle of Hastings, had one entire side had it, and the other did not.)

  Forge Ring:  Taken forward from earlier editions.

  Great Cleave:  I can see it now.  Jedi Knight with drawn lightsabre.  Jedi surrounded by foes.  Jedi does a 360.  Halves of all foes tumble to the ground.  Translation:  stay away from the person with the two-handed sword and Great Cleave.  
  Interesting, but you could use this feat with a weapon in either hand.  Jedi whirls with both lightsabres, quartered pieces of foes drop to the ground (well, ok, they aren't quartered.  But the ones that weren't halved by the first lightsabre, WERE halved by the SECOND lightsabre.)  Translation, stay away from the person with two long swords (or, horrors, two bastard swords.)

  Great Fortitude:  Again, Feats are precious.  + 2 to Fortitude saves is nice.  But will you burn a whole Feat on it?

  Greater Spell Focus:  Yeah, I remember.  World War III went off over this one.  It was + 2, right?  Now it's + 1, but a great number of DMs Rule Zeroed that, and keep it at + 2.  Hmmm ... I myself lean towards the spellcasting classes, so I'd keep it at + 2 ... (After all, again, will you burn a Feat for a + 1?  This is a + 1 to ALL your spell DCs, but still ...)

  Greater Spell Penetration:  This one blasts into what we used to call magic resistance, right?  (Now called Spell Resistance.)  Doesn't a + 1 translate to 5% here?  In other words, wouldn't a being from 2E with 50% magic resistance have a SR of 10?
  Thus, this spell effectively reduces your opponent's magic resistance (ala 2E) by 10%, on top of the earlier feat that reduced it by 10%, for a total reduction of 20%.  Not bad ...


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## kenobi65 (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> You have a BAB of + 10 / + 5 / 0 with your good hand, and a BAB of + 10 / + 5 with your off-hand.
> You have a Strength Bonus of + 4.  (It's + 2 with your off-hand.)




Two slight, but important, clarifications:

1) When you fight with two weapons, you only apply 1/2 your Strength bonus to the *damage* on the off-hand weapon.  You still get your *full* Strength bonus applied to the attack roll of the off-hand weapon.

2) Actually, you need a BAB of +11, not +10, to get a third iterative attack.  So, in your example, you could have a BAB of +10 / +5 (and, the same with the off-hand, if you have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting), but you wouldn't get the third (+0) attack with the primary hand.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Eschew materials:  If your DM is a stickler for material components, this is a big one, especially with 6 second rounds, IMO (some DMs are into realism here ...)  If your DM let's material components slide (most do, in my experience) this Feat is less useful.  In my games, I would consider this Feat a very big thing, especially concerning the roleplaying consequences (what, Raistlin walks around, and he DOESN'T smell of material components?)




Generally speaking, unless it's a pricey item, it's assumed that the spellcaster's spell component pouch contains plenty of whatever components he needs.  Yeah, this really only comes up if you've got a DM who's a stickler, or if (for whatever reason) you lose your spell component pouch (or don't get a chance to replenish it).  Generally, a weak feat.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Considering what I'm hearing about Spiked Chains and their uses, I think EVERYONE is taking this one!




Honestly, I see a few spiked chain users, but not that many.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Extra Turning:  Clerics got nerfed I see.  But they got maxed out in so many ways otherwise I can handle it.  The Ogre's Choice, whether to take this one if you are a cleric:  will your basic turning abilities be enough, or should you have taken that Feat, so you can turn those 5 spectres that are now about to kill the party?




Extra Turning is more useful if you take some of the feats in books like Complete Divine, that let you spend turning attempts for other uses.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Great Cleave:  I can see it now.  Jedi Knight with drawn lightsabre.  Jedi surrounded by foes.  Jedi does a 360.  Halves of all foes tumble to the ground.  Translation:  stay away from the person with the two-handed sword and Great Cleave.




Cleave / Great Cleave are nice, because they fundamentally give fighter-types extra attacks (drop a guy, get an extra attack).  I see Cleave used fairly often, but relatively few occasions (save for fighting large numbers of low-hp mooks) where Great Cleave comes into play.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Great Fortitude:  Again, Feats are precious.  + 2 to Fortitude saves is nice.  But will you burn a whole Feat on it?




Probably only if your Fort save stinks (it's a weak save for your class, and you don't have a good Con bonus), and you've been hosed one too many times by failing a Fort save.  Ditto for Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Greater Spell Focus:  {snip} This is a + 1 to ALL your spell DCs, but still ...)




Actually, it's only a +1 to your spell DCs in a particular school...



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Greater Spell Penetration:  This one blasts into what we used to call magic resistance, right?  (Now called Spell Resistance.)  Doesn't a + 1 translate to 5% here?  In other words, wouldn't a being from 2E with 50% magic resistance have a SR of 10?




Not necessarily, since to overcome SR, the attacker needs to make a caster level check (d20 + level).  SR10 is pretty wimpy.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Thus, this spell effectively reduces your opponent's magic resistance (ala 2E) by 10%, on top of the earlier feat that reduced it by 10%, for a total reduction of 20%.  Not bad ...




Correct.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

Yeah, I understand Combat Expertise now.  Thank you all very much for the feedback.
  Two-weapon fighting and multi-attack are now clear to me.

  They have nothing to combat aging, eh?  I hear Monte Cook compensated for that with Arcana Unearthed.  Considering how elven age categories got shortened, I can't blame him.

  Down with death from old age!  (And up with premature death by assorted weapons, claws, bites, energy drains, poisonings, spells, dragon's breath, and other nice things like that.)  

  And just remember, if everything else fails lichdom can be yours, for a price (and I hear they now have rules for your PC being an undead or a ghost.  Ghosttouch, or something like that?)

  About that Spiked Chain:  it has a reach of 10 feet, and it works at 10 feet and at 5 feet.
  So that means you get an AOO when your opponent enters the 10 foot hex AND an AOO when your opponent enters the 5 foot hex, right? ...


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

Ah, thanks Kenobi.  My goof.  Full bonus on strength to attack, half bonus on strength damage, with the off-hand.  And yes, it takes a + 11 for 3 attacks ...

  EDIT:  Only one school?  Ok, that Feat (Spell Focus) is useless ... (or, at least, not worth putting a Feat slot into.)

  Ever fish through your pockets for change?  Trying to find that particular quarter amongst a lot of nickels, dimes, and pennies?
  That's the poor mage fishing for the right spell component.  
  As I said, if the DM's a stickler, gotta have this one.  If not, one can let it pass.


----------



## Staffan (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Exotic Weapon Proficiency:  You need this to wield a bastard sword one-handed (so you can wield another bastard sword with the off-hand, LOL.  )  You need this for all those dwarven waraxes, spiked chains, double-bladed orc axes, and so on.  It's a truism, this Feat, that you gotta take it, for certain classes.
> Considering what I'm hearing about Spiked Chains and their uses, I think EVERYONE is taking this one!



It's not that common, really. In the two campaigns I'm in (one as a DM, the other as a player), I think only one character has taken Exotic weapon proficiency (Spiked chain, of course).



> Far Shot:  God protect us all from the bowmen and bowwomen.  Now they have this Feat.  But it does not double the range like Enlarge Spell does.



Yeah, there are a bunch of neat archery feats, like this, Point-blank shot (+1 hit/damage within 30 ft), Precise Shot (shoot into melee without penalty), and Rapid shot (one extra attack, all attacks at -2 - sort of like two-weapon fighting with a bow).


> Great Fortitude:  Again, Feats are precious.  + 2 to Fortitude saves is nice.  But will you burn a whole Feat on it?



The save-booster feats, I mostly see on fighter-types (who want Iron Will). Since their Will save is so low, it's not uncommon for a foe with the right magic to either take them out of the battle with a single spell, or worse - turn them against their own party. Getting a small save boost helps with that.



> Greater Spell Focus:  Yeah, I remember.  World War III went off over this one.  It was + 2, right?  Now it's + 1, but a great number of DMs Rule Zeroed that, and keep it at + 2.  Hmmm ... I myself lean towards the spellcasting classes, so I'd keep it at + 2 ... (After all, again, will you burn a Feat for a + 1?  This is a + 1 to ALL your spell DCs, but still ...)



It's only for one school, not all spells.

My house rule here is that Spell Focus gives +2 to the save DCs for one school, and Greater Spell Focus doesn't exist. GSF could be used to push DCs into the stratosphere, but SF on its own is OK.



> Greater Spell Penetration:  This one blasts into what we used to call magic resistance, right?  (Now called Spell Resistance.)  Doesn't a + 1 translate to 5% here?  In other words, wouldn't a being from 2E with 50% magic resistance have a SR of 10?



MR 50% more properly translates to SR 21, since 1e MR was based on an 11th level caster (with +/-5% per level above/below that). However, it's not that simple. Most monsters got converted to having a SR equal to CR (Challenge Rating, a number that indicates at what level you're supposed to be facing these monsters) +10 or so, somewhat more or less depending on how resistant the monsters were in AD&D (Mind flayers have CR 8 and SR 25, so you need to roll 17+ to affect them = 80%, a slight decrease from the 90% they had in AD&D; Githyanki have SR = class levels +5 which translates to CR +4, so effectively 15%).


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

(Is going over to the Combat Section next, because the Improved Feats won't make sense otherwise.  Cart before the horse situation.)


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## Staffan (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> And just remember, if everything else fails lichdom can be yours, for a price (and I hear they now have rules for your PC being an undead or a ghost.  Ghosttouch, or something like that?)



Ghostwalk, which is sort of like a mini-setting with lots of undead (not necessarily evil ones). Sort of like the 2e mini-settings Council of Wyrms and Jakandor - make one (or a few) books, and then leave it.



> About that Spiked Chain:  it has a reach of 10 feet, and it works at 10 feet and at 5 feet.
> So that means you get an AOO when your opponent enters the 10 foot hex AND an AOO when your opponent enters the 5 foot hex, right? ...



You don't get an AoO for an opponent entering a square (or hex, if you prefer). You get one for them *leaving*. So you only get one for the movement from 10 to 5 ft away.

Also, movement is considered a single action for the purpose of provoking AoOs. A fast enough opponent could literally run circles around you, and you'd still only get one AOO.


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The complicated version:
> 
> You have a BAB of + 10 / + 5 / 0 with your good hand, and a BAB of + 10 / + 5 with your off-hand.
> You have a Strength Bonus of + 4.  (It's + 2 with your off-hand.)
> You have a penalty of - 4 for fighting with two One Handed Melee Weapons (you have the Two Weapon Proficiency Feat, or it would have been - 6 / - 10.)




Just a quick correction but I think the half bonus for the off hand applies to DAMAGE only - you still get the full bonus on to-hit.

You might want to double check that tho 

Edit - I see Kenobi has already pointed this out. Sigh - I need the improved initiative and fast fingers feats


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## kenobi65 (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> About that Spiked Chain: it has a reach of 10 feet, and it works at 10 feet and at 5 feet.
> So that means you get an AOO when your opponent enters the 10 foot hex AND an AOO when your opponent enters the 5 foot hex, right? ...




Not really.  Entering a threatened square doesn't provoke an AoO.  It's *leaving* one that provokes.  So, if you're wielding a spiked chain, and your opponent moves into the square directly next to you, he's moved *out* of the outer squares that you threaten, and you do get an AoO.  (That is, unless that "move" was only a 5' step; 5' steps never provoke AoOs.)

As someone else noted earlier, one of the selling points of spiked chains is that they're about the only reach weapon available to Medium-sized characters that both (a) give reach out to 10', and (b) still also let you attack the squares directly adjacent to you.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> EDIT:  Only one school?  Ok, that Feat (Spell Focus) is useless ... (or, at least, not worth putting a Feat slot into.)




Spell Focus got nerfed in 3.5; it (and Greater Spell Focus) both used to give +2 bonuses.  Apparently the design team thought that was too good.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Ever fish through your pockets for change?  Trying to find that particular quarter amongst a lot of nickels, dimes, and pennies?
> That's the poor mage fishing for the right spell component.
> As I said, if the DM's a stickler, gotta have this one.  If not, one can let it pass.




If you take a look at the illustrations of Mialee, her vest is covered with tiny little pouches.  I think the idea of a spell component pouch is that it's in some way "categorized" to keep the caster from having to fish around.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

(sighs)



  Let me get this right ...

  If I am Colossal Size, and you are Colossal Sized, I have no penalty or bonus to hit you.
  If I am Colossal Size, and you are Gargantuan Sized, I have a - 4 penalty to hit you.
  I am Colossal and you are Huge:  - 6
  I am Colossal and you are Large:  - 7
  I am Colossal and you are Medium:  - 8
  I am Colossal and you are Small:  - 9
  I am Colossal and you are Tiny:  - 10
  I am Colossal and you are Diminutive:  - 12
  I am Colossal and you are Fine:  - 16

  If I am Gargantuan Sized and you are Colossal Sized:  I have a + 4 BONUS to hit you.
  If I am Gargantuan and you are Gargantuan:  No penalty or bonus.
  Gargantuan/Huge:  - 2
  Gargantuan/Large:  - 3
  Gargantuan/Medium:  - 4
  Gargantuan/Small:  - 5
  Gargantuan/Tiny:  - 6
  Gargantuan/Diminutive:  - 8
  Gargantuan/Fine:  - 12

  If I am Medium Sized, it goes:

  I'm Medium, you're Colossal:  + 8 BONUS to hit you.
  Medium/Gargantuan:  + 4 bonus.
  Medium/Huge:  + 2 bonus.
  Medium/Large:  + 1 bonus.
  Medium/Medium:  no penalty or bonus.
  Medium/Small:  - 1
  Medium/Tiny:  - 2
  Medium/Diminutive:  - 4
  Medium/Fine:  - 8

  All the way down to:

  I am Fine sized, and you are Colossal sized:  + 16 BONUS to hit you.
  Fine/Gargantuan:  + 12
  Fine/Huge:  + 10
  Fine/Large:  + 9
  Fine/Medium:  + 8
  Fine/Small:  + 7
  Fine/Tiny:  + 6
  Fine/Diminutive:  + 4
  Fine/Fine:  no penalty or bonus.

  This, of course, DOES stack with everything else.

  So, if I polymorph myself into an insect sized critter, and I attack with my + 5 sword, with another + 10 of various bonuses of various types, then when I attack the Dragon I get ...

  + 16 to hit for Size.
  + 5 for the sword.
  + 10 for the other bonuses.

  That's + 31 to hit, right there.

  LOL ...

  Is this right?  (Because if it is, I have to memorize it by rote, or I'll never get a combat done.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

Well then, with the Spiked Chain ...

  Don't you get an AOO when your opponent turns tail and runs ...

  From the 5 foot square next to you, AND ...
  From the 10 foot square next to that which you also threaten?

  Seems to me you'd get 2 AOO on said hapless opponent (if ture, said opponent wouldn't be running anywhere ...)


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## Aaron L (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (sighs)
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Yes... its right... but youre going to drive yourself insane with this.  Size factors are already figured into monster AC and to hit humbers.  You dont have to worry about it generally.  Trying to keep it in your head all the time is going to drive you nuts.  Youre going way overboard with most of this stuff.


And with the above example, yes, you can polymorph into an ant sized creature, and have a great bonus to hit... and do one point of damage.  Being that small will make your strength score into mush, and weapons do damage based on thier size.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Well then, with the Spiked Chain ...
> 
> Don't you get an AOO when your opponent turns tail and runs ...
> 
> ...




In theory, yes...but...

(1) If the fleeing opponent takes the "Withdraw" action (in which all he does is move, see PHB p. 143), the first square he's in is considered "safe".  So, he'd only provoke an AoO from moving out of that second square.

(2) Unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can only make one AoO per round.  (Though, most PCs I've heard of that are built around Spiked Chain do take that feat.)


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## kenobi65 (Dec 8, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Yes... its right... but youre going to drive yourself insane with this.  Size factors are already figured into monster AC and to hit humbers.  You dont have to worry about it generally.  Trying to keep it in your head all the time is going to drive you nuts.  Youre going way overboard with most of this stuff.




Exactly; the only time you need to worry about adjusting anything is when there's been a *change* in a combatant's size.  Otherwise, all the adjustments have already been "baked into" the characters' stats.  

This is because the adjustments due to size aren't handled on a "size vs. size" basis...Small creatures get +1 on attack rolls (versus *anybody*), and +1 on AC (versus *anybody*), so if you're playing a halfling, you just add +1 to your attack bonuses, and +1 to your AC, when you create the character, and you're done.  (Note that, if you're fighting against another halfling, the +1 to attack rolls you get for being small is effectively counteracted by the +1 the other halfling has to his AC for being small...but you don't need to do the calculations each time.)



			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> And with the above example, yes, you can polymorph into an ant sized creature, and have a great bonus to hit... and do one point of damage.  Being that small will make your strength score into mush, and weapons do damage based on thier size.




Exactly.  When you take on a smaller form, your Strength score will almost always drop...and when your weapon gets smaller, its damage dice also shrink.  So, as Aaron notes, you'll be able to hit all day long...but just not do any damage.


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 8, 2005)

As Aaron L says you don't apply the modifiers for size during combat you apply them during character creation.

A small creature has +1 to hit vs EVERYTHING and +1 AC vs EVERYTHING. A large creature has -1 to hit and -1 AC vs everything. You jot it down during creation and never need to worry about it again (unless using magic to change size).

If you do change size (say small to fine) then you work out the changes by going through medium i.e. you lose your +1 to hit and +1 AC for small but instead gain +8 to hit and +8 AC for fine. Work out all your modifiers once when you first change and for all combats after that the modifiers stay the same.

(the chart you compiled is what the bonuses work out to but it is only useful as an academic exercise since that chart will NEVER be referenced in combat)


DAMN YOU KENOBI, damn you and your fast fingers


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## kenobi65 (Dec 8, 2005)

BeauNiddle said:
			
		

> DAMN YOU KENOBI, damn you and your fast fingers




LOL.  That's what 22 years of consistent touch-typing do for ya...


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 8, 2005)

(With what crude knowledge of 3.5 Yours Truly has, he goes where No Gamer Was Meant to Go Before.)



  1 DM, 6 players, all newbies to 3.5.
  No miniatures or grid maps (or maps of any kind) being used.  
  Standard dice, character sheets, pepsi, books on table.
  Players argumentative, players only half understand rules, DM only half understands rules.

  In Game Combat:  20 orcs break down door and charge party.

  Player 1 (P1)  I fire my bow.
  P2:  I charge.
  P3:  I stand and fight.
  P4:  (looks up from petting the cat)  I ... uh ... hmmm ... fire an arrow at the closest orc.
  P5:  Pardons, but I have to go to the bathroom.  Be back in time to do something.
  P6:  I ... hmmm ... can I wait and declare my action later?
  DM to P6:  Yes.
  DM:  Party wins initiative!
  P1:  (rolls 15)  It's a hit!
  DM:  Let me see.  According to this, your bow has an enhancement bonus of + 3, it is a strength bow + 2, and you had a BAB of + 4, but ...
  P2: (interrupting)   I chop my orc!  (rolls 16)  I hit!  (rolls 12)  I hit again.
  P3:  (also interrupting)  Have they reached me yet?
  DM:  Uh ... ok, you hit the orc for ...  roll damage, please for your bow.
  P2:  (misunderstanding)  12 points.  And 15 points.  Plus my enhancement bonus, which is 17 points.  That's 44 points.
  P1:  Don't I get an AOO?
  DM:  Uh ...
  P3:  I'm tired of waiting.  I charge.
  P6:  I fire my bow.
  DM to P1:  2 orcs charge up to you to attack.
  P1:  I get my AOO on them!  (rolls)
  DM:  No, that's only when ...
  P1:  12 and 17 points of damage.
  P2:  I get AOO on those 2 also.  They were within 10 feet of me!  (rolls)  18 and 13 damage!
  P3:  I get AOO too.  How many orcs are now attacking me?
  P6:  I rolled a 5.  Does that hit?
  P1:  I should get AOO on every orc that charges P3, since they go right by me.
  P2:  And I should also.
  DM:  But you're carrying a bow ...
  P3:  A bow allows AOO.
  DM:  No it doesn't.
  P3:  Yes it does (grabs PHB.)  I'll prove it.
  P1:  How many AOO do I get?  Where are all these orcs?
  DM:  5 raced by, 2 are on you ... uh ... 3 are on P1.
  P1:  I chop all 5 (starts rolling)
  DM:  They are out of range.
  P1:  Whadda mean, they are out of range?!  They're running right by me!
  P2:  I still think I get AOO.  Can I whack them with the bow?  Better yet, I'll try Trip.
  P3:  I make my AOO on all 5 charging me.
  DM:  I didn't say they were charging you.
  P3:  Then I whack as many as I can.
  P5:  (returns from the bathroom)  I throw a Fireball.  I throw it 50 feet up.  That should kill those orcs.
  DM:  That gives them AOOs on you.
  P5:  But weren't all my friends standing in front of me?  Where are you guys standing?
  P2:  I know, I'll jab them with the arrows.
  P1:  I whack every orc that rushes by.
  P3:  I bull rush my orc, then trip the second one, then leap on the third.
  DM:  Uh ...
  P4:  (continues scratching the housecat, not paying attention)  Can I make a sneak attack?



  Edena_of_Neith

  (Actually, I'm sure it would be far, far, far worse than what I just wrote ...)


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## painandgreed (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (Actually, I'm sure it would be far, far, far worse than what I just wrote ...)




Not really, do individual initiatives managed by the file card system and each person preforms their action in order when called by the DM. Let them handle all the bonus' and such. If you're using miniatures or whiteboard, AoO are simple, and if you are not, then they are DM call or just drop them all together.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 8, 2005)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> Not really, do individual initiatives managed by the file card system and each person preforms their action in order when called by the DM. Let them handle all the bonus' and such.




Yup, that's really the only way to do it.  At the beginning of combat, have each PC roll their own initiative, and create an initiative order based on that (I use index cards, too, but you can also just make a list on a piece of paper).  Characters don't get to act until it's their initiative, so that cuts down on a lot of the stuff you're imagining.



			
				painandgreed said:
			
		

> If you're using miniatures or whiteboard, AoO are simple, and if you are not, then they are DM call or just drop them all together.




Honestly, understanding what might provoke an AoO is a big reason to use a battlemat and minis, unless your players are *really* good at visualizing and remembering.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (With what crude knowledge of 3.5 Yours Truly has, he goes where No Gamer Was Meant to Go Before.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Stop here. You've already incorrectly translated two 1e/2e rules to 3e. First off, there is no party initiative. Each party member rolls initiative, applies their initiative modifier and comes up with an individual initiative score. The Dm rolls for the opponents (usually as a group, or smaller subgroups, for example, were I running an encounter with 4 goblins and 4 hobgoblins opposing the party, I would roll the goblins and hobgoblins separately).

Second, you do not have to declare our actions ahead of your actual initiative action. You may wait until your turn in the combat to decide what you want to do.



> _P1:  (rolls 15)  It's a hit!
> DM:  Let me see.  According to this, your bow has an enhancement bonus of + 3, it is a strength bow + 2, and you had a BAB of + 4, but ..._





Player's should have their basic modifiers written down on their character sheet, allowing them to calculate their attacks easily. For example, suppose the character in question is a 4th level fighter, with 15 Strength, and a 15 Dexterity, using a mighty (+2 Str) masterwork composite longbow. His attacks with his bow are at +7 with the bow (+4 BAB, +2 Dex, +1 MW). He should have this written on his character sheet. If he rolls a 15, his attack score is 22 (15 + 7). If this is higher than the target's AC, he hits. The Dm should have the player give him the total result, including modifiers, not the raw roll. He does 1d8+2 damage if he hits (1d8 for the bow, +2 for Strength).



> _P2: (interrupting)   I chop my orc!  (rolls 16)  I hit!  (rolls 12)  I hit again.
> P3:  (also interrupting)  Have they reached me yet?
> DM:  Uh ... ok, you hit the orc for ...  roll damage, please for your bow.
> P2:  (misunderstanding)  12 points.  And 15 points.  Plus my enhancement bonus, which is 17 points.  That's 44 points._





Sequential initiative cures this problem. For example, suppose the initiative results for the players in question were: P1  - 24, P2  - 17, P3 - 14, P4 - 11, P5 - 10, P6 - 4. In that case, P2 would not act until after P1's actions had been resolved. This will cure a lot of confusion.



> _P1:  Don't I get an AOO?
> DM:  Uh ...
> P3:  I'm tired of waiting.  I charge.
> P6:  I fire my bow._





Sequential initiative takes care of this. Further, initiative is cyclical in 3e, meaning that once the initative order is determined, it does not change from round to round. The combatants act in the same order each round for the duration of combat, the actions just revolve in order.



> _DM to P1:  2 orcs charge up to you to attack.
> P1:  I get my AOO on them!  (rolls)
> DM:  No, that's only when ...
> P1:  12 and 17 points of damage._





Unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you only get one AoO per round. Your AoO's "reset" on your action. Let's assume that the orcs got a 13 for their initiative. Using my hypothetical example from above, they would go after P1, P2, and P3, but before P4, P5, and P6. (Note, at the start of combat, for the first round only, you are flat-footed until you act in the combat, which denies you your Dexterity bonus to AC, makes you vulnerable to sneak attacks, and prevents you from making AoOs unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat).

Further, you do not get an AoO when someone _enters_ your threatened area. Only when someone moves through or out of your threatened area. Also note that a 5 foot step never draw an AoO for movement, and if the only thing you do in a round is move (not run), then the first 5 feet you move is considered to be "not threatened".



> _P2:  I get AOO on those 2 also.  They were within 10 feet of me!  (rolls)  18 and 13 damage!
> P3:  I get AOO too.  How many orcs are now attacking me?
> P6:  I rolled a 5.  Does that hit?
> P1:  I should get AOO on every orc that charges P3, since they go right by me._





Once again, you only get one AoO per round, unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat, an then you get 1 + 1 per every point of Dexterity bonus you have.



> _P2:  And I should also.
> DM:  But you're carrying a bow ...
> P3:  A bow allows AOO.
> DM:  No it doesn't.
> P3:  Yes it does (grabs PHB.)  I'll prove it._





No, it doesn't. A ranged weapon does not threaten an area. Only a melee weapon does.



> _P1:  How many AOO do I get?  Where are all these orcs?
> DM:  5 raced by, 2 are on you ... uh ... 3 are on P1.
> P1:  I chop all 5 (starts rolling)
> DM:  They are out of range.
> ...





Most of this is solved by sequential initative, and a grasp on the rules limiting AoOs to one per round, with melee weapons only.


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## Staffan (Dec 8, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Well then, with the Spiked Chain ...
> 
> Don't you get an AOO when your opponent turns tail and runs ...
> 
> ...



No. Any amount of movement only qualifies for one AoO.


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## William Ronald (Dec 8, 2005)

Generally, I have found that sequential initative solves many of the problems in the post.  One thing to remember is that there is a good chart on what provokes an attack of opportunity in the Player's Handbook.

For opponents, it might just be best to roll a single initative for them -- or one for a leader and another for their followers.

Writing down the adjusted BABs and initiatives can work well.  Many DMs I know ask players to inform them of their initiave, spot, search, and listen modifiers.  Players generally can help a DM by keeping track of initiative and rolling damage.  (You can also have players roll d20s and the appropriate damage dice at the same time to speed up play.)

Maybe you can check if there is going to be a demo game in your area.  Or possibly one of the board members in your area might be willing to set up a demo game.


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## MerricB (Dec 8, 2005)

3.5e combat goes a lot more like this:

DM: The door breaks down and 10 orcs charge into the room! Roll initiative!
P1: I get a 24
P2: I get a 22
P3: I get a 15
P4: I get a 12
P5: I get a 7
P6: I get a 0. My die sucks!
DM: P1, you're up first. The orcs are 20 feet away.
P1: I draw my sword and charge them. *rolls d20* A 17! And a +2 for the charge makes 19! Do I hit?
DM: Sure. Roll damage.
P1: *clatter* 10 points.
DM: The orc goes down.
P1: I've got Cleave! Is there another orc next to me?
DM: Yes. Go for it.
P1: *clatter* A 22 this time. *clatter* only 6 damage. 
DM: That's still enough. Eight orcs left.
P2: I start casting a sleep spell.
DM: Sure. That's a long casting time... I wonder if there'll be any orcs left.
P2: I can dream... or they can.
P3: I draw my bow and fire. A six. That's not enough, is it?
DM: Not a chance - and they have cover.
P4: My turn...
DM: Not quite. The orcs beat you for initiative. Four of them surround P1. *clatter* Hmm. Rolls of 10, 14, 17 and 22. You've lost 2 from your AC for charging. How many hit?
P1: Two. I've an AC of 16 at the moment.
DM: Right. You take 6 and 8 damage.
P1: Help! Only 2 hp left!
DM: The other four orcs push past you to get to your friends. They'd all provoke attacks of opportunity, but you don't have Combat Reflexes. Have on AoO anyway.
P1: A 15. Is that enough?
DM: Yep.
P1: Another 10 damage! Pity I've already cleaved this turn.
DM: Not for me. Right, P4 and P5 they're attacking you. *clatter*. I miss P4, P5, you can take 10 damage.
P5: Help! Rogue on ground!
P4: Finally, my turn. Err... attack or heal? What a decision!
P5: Help me!
P4: You're unconscious!
P5: Help!
P4: Oh, very well. I cast cure light wounds on him. I'll cast defensively as well. Lucky I took Combat Casting! *rolls* A 16. Just enough! *clatter* Have 8 hp, rogue
P5: Thanks!
DM: Right, P5 is conscious but prone. What are you doing?
P5: Err... standing up and attacking.
DM: Well, the two orcs next to you get attacks of opportunity against you. *clatter*. One hit. Take 5.
P5: 1 hp! Help!
P4: You've already had it!
P5: I stab the annoying orc with my rapier. Hey! 18! That's a threat!
DM: Sure is. Roll to confirm.
P5: Natural 20! It takes some damage... *clatter* 14 points!
DM: Another orc down. Only six left - four around P1, and other two near P4 and P5.
P6: A Druid's work is never done. I command my wolf to attack the orcs *rolls* successfully, and then heal P5. *rolls* heal 7 points. The wolf: *rolls* It got a 12. Is that enough?
DM: Not quite.
P1: Back to me! Barbarian Rage! Attack! *clatter, clatter* Two more orcs die.
P2: My turn! The sleep spell takes effect.
DM: Right. You can get all of orcs in its effect - P1 will be in the effect, but he's higher level then the orcs and should be safe. What's the DC on the save?
P2: DC 14.
DM: *clatter* Well, three of the orcs are asleep. One's left.
P3: I use Rapid Shot against the last orc.
DM: It's still got cover and is in melee with P1.
P3: Precise Shot cancels out some of that. *rolls* My dice hate me.
DM: With reason.
P3: Hey!
DM: The remaining orc looks around the room, gulps, and starts humming a funeral dirge as it attacks P1. *rolls* I guess it misses.
P4: At last! Can I move to flank?
DM: Well, there are bodies all around and everything... but I guess so.
P4: Right! I move in and stab the orc. *rolls* A 15!
DM: That's a hit, sure enough.
P4: And Sneak attack damage! Well, well. Did it have 16 hp?
DM: Unfortunately not. I guess you want to loot the bodies now?
All: Yes!

Cheers!


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Dec 8, 2005)

> In Game Combat: 20 orcs break down door and charge party.




I hope that's not a real example. 20 orcs would be a boring fight, even if they had different classes. You probably shouldn't use more than 3 NPCs per PC, and only if those NPCs are _really_ weak. You might want to check out the CR system, too.

PS I noticed in your example that the players had +3 weapons already. There are specific rules hidden in the DMG about how much magic gear PCs of a certain level are supposed to have. 1st-level PCs aren't going to have +3 weapons unless you weren't paying attention the the treasure you generated


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## sniffles (Dec 8, 2005)

Merric, that was great!!   

Edena, you should read through the play-by-play description of a game session in the DMG if you get the opportunity. It's very similar to what Merric has done, and IMHO very helpful.

No game session should be like the one you described unless the players are all 12 years old or drunk.     My group all came from 2e, and none of us had a fabulous grasp of all the rules when we started our first 3e game, but it still ran very smoothly. I particularly like 3e's rules for initiative, and the simplicity of determining your attack bonuses - I always found Thac0 counterintuitive with its possibility of negative results. 

Keep those questions/comments coming! This is a really entertaining and informative thread, even for someone like me who's been playing 3e since about a month after it was released.


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## StormCrow42 (Dec 9, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Edena, you should read through the play-by-play description of a game session in the DMG if you get the opportunity. It's very similar to what Merric has done, and IMHO very helpful.



Agreed, the sample of how an adventure goes (starting on page 8 of the DMG) is a great beginning example.  As a bit of an aside, how many people noticed that the adventure is the same one that was used in previous editions of AD&D, just updated to the 3.5 mechanics?


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## FireLance (Dec 9, 2005)

StormCrow42 said:
			
		

> Agreed, the sample of how an adventure goes (starting on page 8 of the DMG) is a great beginning example.  As a bit of an aside, how many people noticed that the adventure is the same one that was used in previous editions of AD&D, just updated to the 3.5 mechanics?



Except for the bit where the poor gnome (revised to Lidda in 3e) gets ripped to shreds by the ghouls. In the new edition, the ghouls will spend so much time arguing about the CDG rules that the rest of the party should be able to surprise them .


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 9, 2005)

(GENUINE AMAZEMENT)

  I just realized something.  With disciplined players and a good DM, that combat from Fellowship of the Ring (the film, where it was 9 characters versus 67 orcs and 1 cave troll, in a complicated room setup) could be handled in 30 minutes in 3.5, without miniatures or a map or anything else but imagination and dice.

  Yes, I said that.  I actually believe it.  I said THAT.  I can't believe I said that, but I SAID that.  
  Yes, I just said the Impossible is Possible.  I just had a fundamental shift in my attitude towards how long 3.0 and 3.5 combats take (they take 1/20th or less the time I thought they would, without miniatures) assuming good players and a good DM.

   MerricB, that was one very outstanding post.  (Actually, it was more than outstanding, it was stunning.)
  You made it sound as smooth as glass, the flow of combat.  Just roll in sequence, ready initiative, and do it.  Smooth as glass.

  -

  My experiences with combat were generally not like that, except in the RPGA only (where, also, combat went smoothly and quickly.)

  MY experiences with combat, in general, involved undisciplined or lazy or not-paying-attention players, and a DM who did not know the rules as well as your hypothetical DM did.

  -

  I thought 3.5 would be difficult or impossible to play without miniatures.  I was dead sure of it.
  Merrick's post just changed that completely.

  You really COULD run that Fellowship of the Ring combat, without miniatures, and have it done within a half-hour, all the complicated rules of 3.5 included!

  My opinion of 3.5 just shot WAY upwards.  Because I just realized it can be funner and involve just about any kind of combat, or any kind of situation, and still be run at speed (that is, quickly) so that there is a lot that happens in any one gaming session.


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 9, 2005)

Some suggestions that helped out my group:

Have one of the players run the initiative track. Since that is the major piece of paperwork at the start of a fight it leaves you time to get any minatures you need out, make sure you have all the notes you need and get yourself into the mind frame of the opponents. During the combat it is that players job to make sure everybody has a turn prepared and to spend time explaining what just happened to any players who weren't paying attention. This leaves you free to focus on the health and tactics of the enemies.

When DMing I was always being distracted by people wanting me to rehash what had already happened and other minutea leaving me no time to organise spells, etc. Also if you have a player who only ever pays attention during their turn you could give the job to them forcing them to be involved for the whole combat.

My second suggestion is to have your players roll attack and damage dice at the same time. It's not a major speed up but it can help (especially if some of your players like to invoke the gods of luck before rolling). It also helps the description of the game - instead of

Player: come on lucky dice
Player: hmm that was a 10 plus my modifiers, hmm... AC15
DM: you just manage to penetrate the orcs defences ...
Player: come on lucky dice
Player: hmm that was a 4 plus my modifiers, hmm... 10 damage
DM: virtually cutting him in half. It collapses twitching to the ground.

You get

Player: come on lucky dice
Player: hmm plus my modifiers,
Player: AC 15
DM: #small nod#
Player: 10 damage
DM: With a might sweep you bring your sword down hard on the villaneous foe almost spliting him in half. It collapses twitching to the ground


It doesn't look like much but it stops those odd occurances where a barely successfully hit does massive damage and those massively successful hits do minimum damage.


My third suggestion is to use cue cards (small 3" by 5" cards often used for recipies) with all the (important) details of the monster. AC, move, hp, weapons, armour, skills, feats, etc. If you have a group of hobgoblins, goblins, wolves and a barghest it's a lot easier moving 4 small cards around than it is flicking through the Monster manual. If you have one critter with lots of special abilities you can leave the monster manual open on that page for quick reference and deal with the mundanes on cards. It's a bit of work to write up the monster the first time your party meets one but after a couple of sessions you have a prepared pile which also makes running random encounters easier.


They helped my party, I hope they help yours


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 9, 2005)

When I learned to type, I had to spend long hours (including my lunch break) intensively repeating the practices taught the previous days.  I spent 1 1/2 hours per day doing those exercises, in school.
  Because I did, I went from being a non-typist to 56 words a minute with 3 mistakes on the final exam.  I got an A+ on the final, and a B+ in the class.
  Since that time, typing has been easy for me.

  (This was before computers were common, and typing was a mandatory skill.  My teacher informed my parents I would never pass the class, or if I somehow did, I would never be a competent typist.  I proved her wrong, and my typing skills have served me well ever since, in this world of computers and the internet.)

  But I did have to learn to type, and it required intensive exercise to learn it by rote.
  Some of the rules of 3.5 D&D are the same way, which is why you see me writing down big charts in my posts.  I'm trying to intensively drill the rules into my head.  

  I figure that once I know the core rules in the PHB by rote, everything else will fall into perspective.  Sort of the way I can type without thinking about it, and concentrate on what I'm saying instead.

  -

  On to Combat.

  The pictures of the weapons in the PHB on pages 115 and on:  are those squares meant to represent 1 foot x 1 foot, with the weapon's actual size thus denoted?

  Comments (but count as questions)

  Melee Weapons:  threaten out to 5 feet typically, sometimes can be thrown.
  Ranged Weapons:  thrown or projectile weapons.
  Reach Weapons:  threaten 10 feet (sometimes more), but do not threaten at 5 feet.
  Double Weapons:  count as two weapons for purposes of penalties:  you strike with both ends of the weapon.  Can be used in two hands: only one end can be used to hit.
  Thrown Weapons:  Strength Bonus applies to Attack Roll and Damage Roll.  
  Thrown Melee Weapons:  - 4 Attack penalty.  (Throwing Light or One-Handed Weapon is Standard Action, throwing Two-Handed Weapon is Full Round Action.  Range increment 10 feet.)
  Projectile Weapon:  Most require both hands to use.  
  Ammunition:  Arrows are drawn as a Free Action.  Bolts and Sling Bullets require a Standard Action.

  Questions:

  For Thrown Weapons (NOT thrown melee weapons) how many can you throw in a round?
  For Thrown Melee Weapons, can you apply your Strength Bonus to damage?
  For Projectile Weapons, can you apply your Strength Bonus to the Attack roll?
  For Composite Bows modified for Strength, can you apply your Strength Bonus to both the Attack and Damage rolls?
  Can a Crossbow be built for Strength, and thus gain the bonuses of a Composite Bow?

  Comments (but count as questions)

  Light Weapons / One-Handed Weapons / Two-Handed Weapons:  Direct designation of how much effort it takes to use the weapon, for the appropriately sized being.

  Light Weapons:  Used one-handed.  Strength Bonus to Damage Rolls with Primary Hand, 1/2 Strength Bonus with Secondary Hand.  (QUESTION:  What about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?)  Can be used while Grappling regardless of which hand it is in.  If wielded two-handed, grants only Strength Bonus to damage (no extra bonus.)  
  (Unarmed Attacks are considered attacks with Light Weapons.)

  One-Handed Weapons:  Used one-handed, may be used in either hand.  Strength bonus to damage if used in Primary Hand, 1/2 Strength bonus if used in Secondary Hand, 1 1/2 x Strength Bonus if used in both hands. (QUESTION:  Again, what about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?)

  Two-Handed Weapons:  Must be used in both hands.  1 1/2 x Strength bonus on hits.  (QUESTION:  Again, what about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?)

  Generalities on Weapon Size:  

  A Light Weapon tends to be 2 size categories smaller than it's wielder (Tiny Sized for Humans, Diminutive Sized for Halflings, Fine Sized for Tiny beings, ? Sized for Fine beings, Huge Sized for Colossal beings.)

 A One-Handed Weapon tends to be 1 size category smaller than it's wielder (Small Sized for Humans, Tiny Sized for Halflings, Diminutive Sized for Tiny beings, ? Sized for Fine beings, Gargantuan Sized for Colossal beings.)

  A Two-Handed Weapon tends to be the same Size Category as the being wielding it ...

  Inappropriately Sized Weapons:

  Human wielding Medium longsword (Sized Small) :  Normal attack (damage is as per the Medium longsword)
  Human wielding Small longsword (Sized Tiny) :  - 2 penalty to Attack (damage is as per the Small longsword)
  Human wielding Tiny longsword (Sized Diminutive) :  - 4 penalty to Attack (damage is as per the Tiny longsword)
  Human wielding Diminutive longsword (not bloody likely, Sized Fine) :  - 6 penalty to Attack (damage is as per the Diminutive longsword)
  Human wielding Fine longsword (LOL, Sized ?) :  - 8 penalty to Attack ...
  Dragon wielding Fine longsword (LOLOL) :  - 16 penalty to Attack ...

  Non-Proficiency Penalty:  A Universal - 4.

  Human wielding Small longsword (Sized Tiny):  counts as Light Weapon (- 2 penalty to Attack rolls)
  Human wielding Medium longsword (Sized Small) :  counts as One-Handed Weapon
  Human wielding Large longsword (Sized Medium) :  counts as Two-Handed Weapon
  Human wielding Huge longsword (Sized Large) :  Not normally possible

  Halfling wielding Large longsword (Sized Medium)  :  Not normally possible

  Dragon wielding Gargantuan longsword (Sized Huge) :  counts as Light Weapon (- 2 penalty to Attack rolls)
  Dragon wielding Colossal longsword (Sized Gargantuan) :  Counts as One-Handed weapon
  Dragon wielding longsword of Colossal size:  Counts as Two-Handed weapon


  Improvised Weapons:  - 4 to Attack rolls.  Weapon Size and Object Size determined by DM (possible additional penalties or requirements.)  Crit 20, x 2.  Range Increment:  10 feet.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 9, 2005)

Rules of Thumb on weapons:

  - Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Weapon:  designation of difficulty in wielding weapon.

  - WEAPON Size refers to the appropriate size of the being meant to wield it.

  Thus:

  Medium dagger, Medium longsword, Medium greatsword, meant for Medium being (human)
  Small dagger, Small longsword, Small greatsword, meant for Small being (halfling)
  Large dagger, Large longsword, Large greatsword, meant for Large being (ogre)
  Colossal dagger, Colossal longsword, Colossal greatsword, meant for Colossal being (dragon  )

  - OBJECT Size depends:  Typically, weapons created to be used as Light Weapons are 2 Object Sizes smaller than the wielder, weapons created to be used as One-Handed Weapons are 1 Object Size smaller than the wielder, and weapons created to be used as Two-Handed Weapons are the same Object Size as the wielder.

  Thus:

  Medium dagger (Object Sized Tiny), Medium longsword (Object Sized Small), Medium greatsword (Object Sized Medium)
  Small dagger (Object Sized Diminutive), Small longsword (Object Sized Tiny), Small greatsword (Object sized Small)
  Large dagger (Object Sized Small), Large longsword (Object Sized Medium), Large greatsword (Object sized Large)
  Colossal dagger (Object Sized Huge), Colossal longsword (Object Size Gargantuan), Colossal greatsword (Object sized Colossal)

  - Inappropriate use of weapons:

  Employing a weapon smaller or larger than you should be using:

  - 2 per size category too small.  - 2 per size category too big.

  First size category too small:  Two-Handed Weapon becomes One-Handed Weapon, One-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, Light Weapon remains Light Weapon (damage is reduced to what smaller sized weapon will deal out)
  Second size category too small:  Two-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, One-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, Light Weapon remains Light Weapon (damage is reduced further to what much smaller weapon will deal out)
  Third size category too small and beyond:  - 2 per additional Size Category on Attack Rolls (damage continues to reduce with weapon size.)

  First Size Category too big:  Light weapon becomes One-Handed Weapon, One-Handed Weapon becomes Two-Handed Weapon, Two-Handed Weapon cannot be used (damage is greater due to bigger weapon)
  Second Size Category too big:  Light weapon becomes Two-Handed Weapon, One-Handed Weapon cannot be used, Two-Handed Weapon cannot be used (damage for Light weapon is much greater due to much bigger weapon)

  Thus:

  Human could wield Large longsword Two-Handed, or Large Dagger One-Handed, - 2 Attack penalty
  Human could wield Huge dagger Two-Handed, - 4 Attack penalty

  Human could wield Small greatsword (counts as One-Handed Weapon), - 2 Attack Penalty
  Human could wield Small longsword (counts as Light Weapon), - 2 Attack Penalty
  Human could wield Small dagger (counts as Light Weapon), - 2 Attack Penalty

  Human could wield a Tiny Weapon (All count as Light Weapons), - 4 Attack Penalty

  Did I finally get it right?


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## Buttercup (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Based on what I'm reading, it seems to me that Light Armor is all but useless (it was most certainly all but useless in 2nd edition and 1st edition!  Leather armor was absolutely useless.)




Not at all.  Every point of AC you can get makes it that much more likely you'll not be injured.  Also, fighters who rely on dexterity (high dex score and the Weapon Finesse feat) don't want to use armor that negates that dexterity, so light armor is their only option.  

(I came to this discussion late, so forgive me if the question has already been answered.)

Edena, I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but in third edition, humans really shine.  That extra feat at character creation and the extra skill points, combined with their greater flexibility in multiclassing make them by far the most desirable race in every campaign I've run or played in.  By contrast, you'll rarely see a half elf anymore.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 9, 2005)

Hey there, Buttercup.  Welcome to the thread.  
  Thank you for coming and helping me.  I need help here!

  Did anyone ever tell you that trying to learn everything on page 113 of the PHB is a pain in the butt?  It is!


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## MonsterMash (Dec 9, 2005)

Just going to say I am really enjoying this thread and it does make me think a lot about the rules and how we use them. 

My experience was a bit different, but I did come to 3.0 as something of a newcomer almost (I hadn't played D&D for something like 15 years, which is why I'm not sure I believe 2e ever happened  )

The weapon size rules were changed in 3.5 from 3.0 and are a little fiddly now.


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## Tarril Wolfeye (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> First size category too small:  Two-Handed Weapon becomes One-Handed Weapon, One-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, Light Weapon remains Light Weapon (damage is reduced to what smaller sized weapon will deal out)
> Second size category too small:  Two-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, One-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, Light Weapon remains Light Weapon (damage is reduced further to what much smaller weapon will deal out)
> Third size category too small and beyond:  - 2 per additional Size Category on Attack Rolls (damage continues to reduce with weapon size.)
> 
> ...




Almost. Weapons beyond Light cannot be used, so your human can't wield a Small Dagger or any Tiny Weapon except a Two-Handed one.

All else is perfectly right!


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Questions:
> 
> For Thrown Weapons (NOT thrown melee weapons) how many can you throw in a round?
> For Thrown Melee Weapons, can you apply your Strength Bonus to damage?
> ...




You can throw as many thrown weapons as you have attacks in a round. (so a 16th level fighter can throw 4).

However drawing thrown weapons isn't a free action so unless you have the quickdraw feat you can only really throw 2 (one in main hand, one in offhand - transferred to main hand before throwing as a free action)

All thrown weapons apply your strength bonus
No projectile weapons apply strength except composite bows.
Composite bows only apply Str to damage - you still use Dex for to-hit.
Crossbows can't be modified


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Comments (but count as questions)
> 
> Light Weapons / One-Handed Weapons / Two-Handed Weapons:  Direct designation of how much effort it takes to use the weapon, for the appropriately sized being.
> 
> ...




In all cases full Strength bonus is applied to to-hit. Relevant modifier applies to Damage only

e.g. Person with 18 Str

longsword in off hand = +4 to hit, +2 damage
longsword in main hand = +4 to hit, +4 damage
longsword in both hands = +4 to hit, +6 damage


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## kenobi65 (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The pictures of the weapons in the PHB on pages 115 and on:  are those squares meant to represent 1 foot x 1 foot, with the weapon's actual size thus denoted?




If so, it's not exact, nor is it consistent.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> One-Handed Weapons:  Used one-handed, may be used in either hand.  Strength bonus to damage if used in Primary Hand, 1/2 Strength bonus if used in Secondary Hand, 1 1/2 x Strength Bonus if used in both hands. (QUESTION:  Again, what about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?)




BeauNiddle's hit it, but the rule is:
The (1/2 Str for off hand) / (full Str for primary hand) / (1 1/2 Str for two hands) rule is a modifier to *damage* rolls only.  You *always* get your full Str bonus on attack rolls with melee weapons, just as you always get your full Dex bonus on attack rolls with ranged weapons.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (With what crude knowledge of 3.5 Yours Truly has, he goes where No Gamer Was Meant to Go Before.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A few weeks ago someone posted a similar description of a hypothetical 3.x combat full of confusion and weirdness.  Then, someone else posted a great description of 1e combat, with the indoor/outdoor distance changes, the arbitrary rulings by the DM on who was standing where for fireballing, the madness of THAC0, etc.  I wish I had bookmarked it to repost every time someone mocks up a 3.x combat to try to show how confusing it is.  I played D&D.  I played AD&D 1st ed. and AD&D 2nd ed.  I play 3rd ed. because it's a lot freakin' easier.  I used to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of 2nd ed. (like unto Brian from KotDT)  I had to, because there was so much to remember.  Now everything I have to remember actually fits on my DM's screen.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 9, 2005)

Hey, thanks everyone for the help.  And  BeauNiddle, thanks for the commentary last night, too.
  I am working on the combat rules right now.

  I wasn't making fun of 3rd edition in my example.  Nor was I attempting to depict a serious combat.
  I was being darkly humorous, depicting a Knights of the Dinner Table type situation where nobody had really tried to learn the 3rd edition rules.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Dec 9, 2005)

Was THAC0 really that confusing?  We didn't use it in 1e and I skipped 2e so maybe I'm not remembering right.  But if for example you have THAC0 of 13 and you just subtract the AC score from that, ie AC 10 is hit on 3 and a -5 is hit on a 18.  Or am I mis-remembering THAC0?


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## MerricB (Dec 9, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Was THAC0 really that confusing?  We didn't use it in 1e and I skipped 2e so maybe I'm not remembering right.  But if for example you have THAC0 of 13 and you just subtract the AC score from that, ie AC 10 is hit on 3 and a -5 is hit on a 18.  Or am I mis-remembering THAC0?




No. It seemed to make a lot of sense.

The problems came from a few things, primarily that subtraction is *much* harder than addition, especially when negative numbers come into it. A THAC0 of 9 attacking AC -3? Hmm.

I had one player that I had to explain THAC0 to *every* time we played.

There's also a problem when the DM likes to hide the AC (as I do). What AC do you hit? is the question asked in those cases. If I have a THAC0 of 12 and roll a 15, what AC do I hit? How about a 9? 

Cheers!


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 9, 2005)

(chuckles)

  I love it.  Touch spell attacks.  And RANGED touch spell attacks ...

  Opponent in plate armor with heavy shield:  Don't even THINK you can hit me through my armor, girl.
  Cute elven wizard:  (fires ray spell, kills said opponent)  Think again.

  Other Opponent, also in plate armor and with heavy shield:  I'm getting out of here!  (starts running)
  Cute elven wizard:  (chases him down because she's not in armor and can run faster, touches him with a touch spell, kills him.)  Poor metal can, couldn't get away.


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## MerricB (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Hey, thanks everyone for the help.  And  BeauNiddle, thanks for the commentary last night, too.
> I am working on the combat rules right now.
> 
> I wasn't making fun of 3rd edition in my example.  Nor was I attempting to depict a serious combat.
> I was being darkly humorous, depicting a Knights of the Dinner Table type situation where nobody had really tried to learn the 3rd edition rules.




That's what I thought, and I thought you'd also benefit from a recap of how I run D&D 3.5e combats.

I started playing D&D close to 23 years ago. I've played 3e since it came out, and 3.5e likewise. In that time, only in the past two years have I regularly started to use miniatures, and even then for only half the combats. 

(Why do I now use miniatures? This is why!)

I've heard some people complain about how *slow* 3e combat is, but it's never really been so for me. I suppose at the highest levels (16+) it might get slower, but not yet.

Cheers!


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## MerricB (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (chuckles)
> 
> I love it.  Touch spell attacks.  And RANGED touch spell attacks ...
> 
> ...




Yep. It's a great innovation in 3e.

It caused a few balance issues as well. _Harm_ became the poster boy for the problems. If you recall 1e/2e harm, it reduced the recipient to 1d4 hp, regardless of how many hp they had. That's also how it worked in 3e, but the touch attack was so much easier to get off (and with the increased hp in 3e as well), that it became a "you die" spell.

That's why _harm_ got changed in 3.5e to 10 damage/level of cleric (max 150), and a save allowed for half that. Touch attacks are great, but you have to keep balance issues in mind.

On the other side of that, the Incarnate (a class in Magic of Incarnum) can have at 1st level a acidic ranged touch attack that deals 3d6 acid damage. They can use it every round. Sounds great, doesn't it?

However, ranged touch attacks still have to deal with cover (+4 AC) and if the target is in melee (+4 AC). At that point, it becomes significantly more difficult to hit. I DMed such a character a fortnight ago, and he had real difficulties in hitting anything.

There's one change worth noting in 3e: In 1e/2e, when you fired into melee, you randomly selected which target in the melee you hit. In 3e, you select your target as a matter of course, but take a +4 AC penalty for it being in melee. (I've found this speeds things up significantly). Cover penalties may also apply.

If you take the Precise Shot feat, then that penalty no longer applies. That's one of the features of 3e: many combat manuevers have penalties that apply to them, and a set of feats that remove these penalties. Another example would be attacking someone with your bare hands. That provokes an attack of opportunity from them. However, if you take Improved Unarmed Strike, that penalty is removed: you no longer provoke the AoO. (Monks have IUS for free, of course!)

Cheers!


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 9, 2005)

The list of actions that provoke Attacks of Opportunity (page 141) list a lot of Do Not Dos in combat.  Even in 1E and 2E, the DMs I played under sometimes allowed free attacks against foes that pulled some of these stunts.

  Attack (melee) :  A good idea, when someone's trying to kill you, to try to kill them.
  Attack (ranged) :  I fire my bow at the guy 5 feet away.  Uh huh.  Right ... and you're Legolas, aren't you?  
  Attack (unarmed) :  If you have Improved Unarmed Strike, great.  You know how to actually brawl.  If you don't have that Feat, what are you doing?  You're going to kick at that guy with the big sword ready?  Good luck.
  Activate a magic item, other than potion or oil:  They strengthened this action in 3rd Edition.  
  Aid another:  If you insist on kneeling down to save a comrade, that ogre standing over you is going to whap you.  But that's better than your comrade dying, if you aren't killed ...
  Bull rush:  Still puzzling over this one.
  Cast a spell (1 standard action casting time) :  This is why spellcasters must be protected by the fighters!  Sometimes the fighters forget to do this, and ...
  Concentrate to maintain an active spell:  This action has been strengthened in 3rd Edition.    QUESTION:  What, if anything, else can the mage do while concentrating?
  Dismiss a spell:  Obvious, this one.
  Draw a hidden weapon:  Still puzzling over this one.
  Drink a potion or apply oil:  Yeah, right.  I drink my potion while ogre there is hewing at me.  LOL.
  Escape a grapple:  Still puzzling that out.  I intend an entire post on Grapple.
  Feint:  Still puzzling that out.  A new action, it seems.  Never heard of feinting in 2E or 1E.
  Light torch:  Common thing people do.  Best to do it behind the protection of fighters ...
  Lower spell resistance:  Hmmm ... that's something you do to yourself.  Similar to dismissing a spell ...
  Make a dying friend stable:  Obvious.  Of course, if you're killed helping your friend, you don't help your friend.  Decisions, decisions.
  Overrun:  Still puzzling this one out.
  Read a scroll:  For some reason, some mages think they can do this in combat without being attacked.  I never understand that thinking.
  Ready:  In 2E, we had a version of this action.  But they've formalized it here.
  Sunder a weapon (attack) :  Yes, he gets an AOO.  But if you sunder his weapon, he's in real trouble.
  Sunder an object worn/carried:  Yes, he gets an AOO.  But you can mess him up really bad, if you sunder something like a Girdle of Strength (yeah, I know, only + 5 in 3rd Edition, but still ...)
  Sunder an object lying on the ground:  No AOO?  I'd think they'd get one.  Hmmm ...
  Total defense:  Obvious.
  Turn or Rebuke Undead:  They've strengthened this in 3rd Edition, since it was a question mark in 2E whether the foe got a free attack.
  Use extraordinary ability:  Extraordinary ability is a new classification in 3rd Edition.  Hmmm ...
  Use skill that takes 1 action:  (I'm assuming standard or full round action?)  Hmmm ... it seems to me circumstances would vary with this one, but ok, they always get AOOs ...
  Use Spell-like ability:  Ok, they get AOOs here.  So why not with supernatural and extraordinary abilities?  Spell-like abilities must take more time and concentration, while supernatural and extraordinary abilities come without thinking about it, instantaneously.  My guess.
  Use supernatural ability:  As above.  New classification in 3rd Edition.

  Move:  Turning your back on a foe was always a bad idea, and in 1E and 2E they got free attacks on you too.  Now it's worse, since every threatened square you move through provokes an AOO from a new opponent (fortunate, that each opponent only gets 1 AOO against you for movement.  Otherwise, as you passed through the 3 hexes threatened by an orc, he's WHACK, WHACK, WHACK, on you.)
  Control a frightened mount:  Obvious.
  Direct or redirect an active spell:  Strengthening of this action from 2E.
  Draw a weapon:

  Did you know that, back in 1E, some of my DMs got so confused they ruled it took an entire round to draw a weapon?
  A round was one minute.  Picture that.  (Fighter:  UH  ... I'm PULLING on it! ... I'll get it out one day ... it'll come out of the sheath any second now ... NUTS, it seems to be stuck ... UMMM I think it's out 5 inches now ... any day now I'll have that long sword out, yes sir ...)

  Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow:  Crossbows are a pain in the butt to use!
  Open or close a door:  Ok, they don't get AOO.  But they might get Surprise.  (Where's Lidda when you need her?)
  Mount a horse or dismount:  This one surprises me, that no AOO results.  The cavalier will love this rule.
  Pick up an item:  I bend down and pick up my torch.  Uh huh.  All while the ogre is raising it's club to smash your head in ...
  Sheath a weapon:  This one surprises me, that they are allowed an AOO.
  Stand up from prone:  Obvious.  (Which makes Trip really nice, eh?)
  Ready or loose a shield:  Hmmm ... ok.
  Retrieve a stored item:  I get out my flask of greek fire, rummaging through my backpack behind it.  I pay no further attention to that ogre with the spiked club about to brain me!


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 9, 2005)

Full attack:  Obvious.
  Charge:  Brings you into combat, as per 2E.
  Deliver Coup de grace:  Roughly the same as in 2E.  Someone's always going to defend their helpless friend (orcs will defend their friends, right?    )
  Escape from a Net:  You're out of luck, if caught in a net.
  Extinguish flames:  I suppose they don't get an AOO because they don't wish to ignite also?
  Light a torch:  Obvious
  Load a heavy or repeating crossbow:  Dealing with a heavy crossbow has always been VERY difficult.
  Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet:  Obvious
  Prepare to throw splash weapons:  That's right, you DON'T get to ready burning oil in the middle of combat, while none of your foes get to do anything about it.  
  Run:  Well, as I said above, big bad fighter in plate armor and shield runs from cute elven mage ... except he doesn't, because she gets AOO and kills him right then, rather than later.  She doesn't need to run him down then!
  Use skill that takes 1 round:  Obvious.
  Use touch spell on up to six friends:  Obvious.
  Withdraw:  The tactical withdraw.  In 2E, we called it retreating while facing the opponent (of course, the opponent could always pursue.)

  Casting a Quickened spell:  This is a MASSIVE strengthening of high level wizards (but not low level wizards, who can't use Quickened spells generally.)
  Cease concentration on a spell:  Obvious.
  Drop an item:  Obvious.
  Drop to the floor:  Not so obvious.  No AOO when your foe is right in front of you, and you drop to the floor?
  Prepare spell components to cast a spell:  This represents a MASSIVE strengthening of the mage IF the DM is a stickler for realism and spell components (and some are.)
  Speak:  Ok ...

  Delay:  Studying this one ...
  5-foot step:  Obvious.  A very slow move, while combat ready.

  Disarm:  Studying this one.  There were no rules for disarm that I remember from earlier editions.
  Grapple:  Studying this one.  The grapple rules I couldn't understand in 1E (nobody could), and in 2E they were still pretty complicated.
  Trip an opponent:  Studying this one.  There were no rules I remember for tripping in 1E or 2E. 
  Use Feat:  Studying Feats.  I notice Feats allow you to Disarm, Grapple, and Trip without provoking an AOO.  How nice that is!

  Now, if only I could memorize the entire list on page 141, I'd be set.  

  EDIT:  Harm is still a killer spell.  10 points per level, right?  But the cleric needs to be around 10th level to cast it:  100 hit points of damage!  And I saw that Greater Harm that does up to 250.  Same rule still applies:  You mess with high level clerics, you die.  

  EDIT:  And I hear there is a Feat that allows you to make Touch Attack spells into Ranged Touch attack spells.  So now, the high level cleric can hit distant targets with Harm, and they get no armor or shield bonus against it.  As I said:  You mess with high level clerics, you die.  Bigtime!  (grins evilly)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 9, 2005)

I bought Magic of Incarnum when I bought the PHB and DMG.  Will study it and post here after finishing the PHB and DMG.
  3d6 acid damage, ranged touch attack, 1st level, usable every round?
  And they said magic was nerfed in 3.5.  LOLOL.

  Cover is wonderful.  Too bad it's so rarely available.
  + 4 to AC for being in melee?  Ok.  But still, no armor or shield bonus.  You're trying to keep the ogre from bashing your head in AND trying to avoid the ranged touch attack of the enemy warlock.  Nice ... 

  The fact an archer can now fire into melee is a MASSIVE strengthening of the fighter, and even more of the ranger, over 1E and 2E.
  The Precise Shot Feat makes this strengthening even more extraordinary.  No AOO against you either!  You really CAN be a Legolas, now, in 3.5.


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## Staffan (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Double Weapons:  count as two weapons for purposes of penalties:  you strike with both ends of the weapon.  Can be used in two hands: only one end can be used to hit.



The advantage of double weapons is that you can decide from round to round whether to treat it as one two-handed weapon or as a onehanded/light weapon combo. That means that if you're prevented from making a full attack (such as when moving), you will get the 1.5x Str bonus to damage on the one attack you do make.


> Thrown Weapons:  Strength Bonus applies to Attack Roll and Damage Roll.



Thrown weapons are ranged attacks, and thus use Dex instead of Str on attack rolls (note that most character sheets have one box for melee attack and one for ranged attack). I think I've seen a feat somewhere that lets you use Strength on thrown weapons, though (could be a regional feat in Player's Guide to Faerûn).


> Ammunition:  Arrows are drawn as a Free Action.  Bolts and Sling Bullets require a Standard Action.



Not quite. Reloading a light crossbow or sling (including readying ammo) is a move action. Reloading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action.



> For Thrown Weapons (NOT thrown melee weapons) how many can you throw in a round?



If you have the Quickdraw feat, as many as you have attacks (and you can use rapid shot). If you don't, only one because you need to take a move action to ready another.


> For Thrown Melee Weapons, can you apply your Strength Bonus to damage?



Yes.


> For Projectile Weapons, can you apply your Strength Bonus to the Attack roll?



No.


> For Composite Bows modified for Strength, can you apply your Strength Bonus to both the Attack and Damage rolls?



Damage only.


> Can a Crossbow be built for Strength, and thus gain the bonuses of a Composite Bow?



No. I've seen people use that as a house-rule, though.



> Light Weapons:  (QUESTION:  What about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?)



Strength bonus to melee attacks is always full Strength bonus, regardless of the weapon's designation. The only exception is if you have the Weapon Finesse feat, in which case you can use Dex *instead of* Str with light weapons as well as certain other specified weapons (from the core rules: rapiers, spiked chains, and whips).


> Human wielding Tiny longsword (Sized Diminutive) :  - 4 penalty to Attack (damage is as per the Tiny longsword)



Once you go below Light (or above Two-handed), the weapon is basically unusable.


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## Staffan (Dec 9, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Was THAC0 really that confusing?  We didn't use it in 1e and I skipped 2e so maybe I'm not remembering right.  But if for example you have THAC0 of 13 and you just subtract the AC score from that, ie AC 10 is hit on 3 and a -5 is hit on a 18.  Or am I mis-remembering THAC0?



Back when I was playing 2e, I had sheets with room for adjusted THAC0 on the weapons list (subtract stat bonuses, specialization/focus, and magic bonuses - a 5th level fighter (base THAC0 16) wielding a weapon he's specialized in (+1) and having +1 to hit from Str 17 and a +2 weapon would note it as THAC0 12 in the weapon list). Then the players could just roll THAC0-d20, and that would be the lowest AC they hit.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Dec 9, 2005)

Bull rush and Overrun: the short version

Bull rush: put your shoulder down and knock the sucker back.
Overrun: really, what it sounds like.  Just launch yourself right through the guy, and if he puts up a fight, you're liable to knock him to the ground and leave a bootprint on his chest.

In both cases, the opponent can try to whack you with an attack of opportunity to annoy you as you careen into him.  In both cases it's a contest of who is stronger (although in Overrun they can try to win using Dexterity instead of Strength).  In both cases people with extra stability (dwarves, quadropeds, etc.) have a better chance of stopping you.


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## MerricB (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I bought Magic of Incarnum when I bought the PHB and DMG.  Will study it and post here after finishing the PHB and DMG.
> 3d6 acid damage, ranged touch attack, 1st level, usable every round?




It takes a feat, and only has a range of 30 feet, but it works.



> Cover is wonderful.  Too bad it's so rarely available.




It happens quite a lot when you've got a friend in melee with the enemy...



> You really CAN be a Legolas, now, in 3.5.




One of the designers recently noted that Legolas was a great inspirations for feats that came up in 3.5e. Especially Manyshot, I guess.

Cheers!


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## Lonely Tylenol (Dec 9, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> The advantage of double weapons is that you can decide from round to round whether to treat it as one two-handed weapon or as a onehanded/light weapon combo. That means that if you're prevented from making a full attack (such as when moving), you will get the 1.5x Str bonus to damage on the one attack you do make.




There are other advantages to double weapons.  The exotic ones like the double sword usually do damage as though you were fighting with two one-handed weapons, without the penalties involved in fighting with two one-handed weapons (double weapons count as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon when fighting as though using two weapons).  As well, if you take Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization for a double weapon, you get the bonuses to hit and damage on either or both ends of the weapon.


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## Staffan (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Attack (melee) :  A good idea, when someone's trying to kill you, to try to kill them.



Been watching Firefly, have we?


> Aid another:  If you insist on kneeling down to save a comrade, that ogre standing over you is going to whap you.  But that's better than your comrade dying, if you aren't killed ...



You're thinking of the First Aid action (or Heal, or whatever it's called). Aid Another is basically trying to get the opponent into a position where an ally can get a bonus against him (or the opponent get a penalty to attack your ally).


> Bull rush:  Still puzzling over this one.



Tackling, basically. You're trying to push someone from the spot they're standing in to somewhere else. It has a somewhat limited use - mostly if an opponent is in a precarious position already (e.g. on the edge of a cliff) or if you're trying to break down an enemy line (e.g. a bunch of fighters protecting a wizard).


> QUESTION:  What, if anything, else can the mage do while concentrating?



Well, concentrating takes a standard action. So, the caster can still do things that require move actions only. Some actions, and notably some things that can happen to the caster, may require Concentration checks.


> Dismiss a spell:  Obvious, this one.



Note that you can only dismiss spells specifically called out as dismissable (by having a D in their duration).


> Draw a hidden weapon:  Still puzzling over this one.



You can use the Sleight of Hand skill to hide a weapon on you. Such weapons are by necessity less easily available than a weapon on your belt, so they're a little harder to draw.


> Feint:  Still puzzling that out.  A new action, it seems.  Never heard of feinting in 2E or 1E.



Basically, you make a Bluff check against your opponent's Sense Motive + BAB. If you succeed, your opponent is denied Dex bonus against the next attack you do (which leaves him open for sneak attacks).


> Sunder an object worn/carried:  Yes, he gets an AOO.  But you can mess him up really bad, if you sunder something like a Girdle of Strength (yeah, I know, only + 5 in 3rd Edition, but still ...)



+4 or +6, actually.


> Use Spell-like ability:  Ok, they get AOOs here.  So why not with supernatural and extraordinary abilities?  Spell-like abilities must take more time and concentration, while supernatural and extraordinary abilities come without thinking about it, instantaneously.  My guess.



Pretty much, yeah.


> Sheath a weapon:  This one surprises me, that they are allowed an AOO.



Sheathing a weapon is a little more involved than drawing one.


> Drop to the floor:  Not so obvious.  No AOO when your foe is right in front of you, and you drop to the floor?



He gets that when you try to stand up later.


> Disarm:  Studying this one.  There were no rules for disarm that I remember from earlier editions.



There were in Complete Fighter's Handbook and Combat & Tactics.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 9, 2005)

Your situation goes from Bad to Worse  

  You are:

  Dazzled:  Attack Roll Penalty - 1, Ranged Attack Roll Penalty - 1
  Shaken or Frightened:  ARP - 2, - 2
  Entangled:  ARP - 2, RARP - 2  (- 4 to Dexterity for you in addition.)
  Prone:  ARP - 4, RARP  You can't do this at all most of the time (crossbows are useful, for once, here)
  Squeezing Through a Space:  - 4 ARP, - 4 RARP

  Frodo in Torich Ungol in Film:  Shaken/Frightened - 2, - 2.  Entangled - 2, - 2.  Squeezing through Spaces:  - 4, - 4.
  Frodo's penalties from these alone:  - 4, - 4 to - 8, - 8 when squeezing.  - 4 to Dexterity.

  Flanking:  + 2 / -
  Invisible:  + 2 / + 2 (and defender loses all Dexterity bonuses)
  On higher ground:  + 1 / + 1

  So Shelob gains + 2 for Flanking (she frequently attempted it), + 1 for Higher Ground (she attempted that constantly) for a + 3 bonus.  

  I wonder if Shelob being directly above Frodo counted as Invisibility?


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## sniffles (Dec 9, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Flanking:  + 2 / -
> Invisible:  + 2 / + 2 (and defender loses all Dexterity bonuses)
> On higher ground:  + 1 / + 1
> 
> ...



I'm far from the rules master that kenobi65 and others are, and I'm sure they'll explain it better, but in order to flank someone you must have any ally working with you. Shelob couldn't flank anyone by herself. Some of the time she might have got a bonus for higher ground, when she climbed up the side of the cleft to loom over Sam, but she wouldn't get higher ground just because she's so tall. She gets a size modifier for that. And when she was directly above Frodo and he didn't see her, that's called "Frodo failed his Spot check".


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 10, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Thrown weapons are ranged attacks, and thus use Dex instead of Str on attack rolls (note that most character sheets have one box for melee attack and one for ranged attack). I think I've seen a feat somewhere that lets you use Strength on thrown weapons, though (could be a regional feat in Player's Guide to Faerûn).




Complete Adventurer, called "Brutal Throw."

It pairs well with "Power Throw," which allows you to use Power Attack with thrown weapons.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 10, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> The advantage of double weapons is that you can decide from round to round whether to treat it as one two-handed weapon or as a onehanded/light weapon combo. That means that if you're prevented from making a full attack (such as when moving), you will get the 1.5x Str bonus to damage on the one attack you do make.




A couple of other advantages of double weapons (esp. compared to using a different weapon in each hand, such as longsword + shortsword):

- Weapon feats, such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical, work on *both heads* of the weapon.  Thus, if you take Weapon Focus (two-bladed sword), you get +1 on attack rolls with both blades.

- In a few cases (two-bladed sword, dire flail, orc double axe), you get more damage out of the "off-hand" (1d8) than you would with any light weapon that you would be able to wield in your off hand.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 10, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> I'm far from the rules master that kenobi65 and others are, and I'm sure they'll explain it better, but in order to flank someone you must have any ally working with you. Shelob couldn't flank anyone by herself.




Well, thanks, sniffles, though I'm nowhere near the expert that some here are. 

You've got it on flanking.  Flanking only works if you've got an ally on the other side of the opponent from you.  There are illustrations on pp. 152-153 of the PHB that show when you do (and don't) get flanking.

I don't know if you've gotten to rogues yet in your perusal of the classes chapter, but rogues *love* flanking -- in most cases, it's the most reliable way for a rogue to get a sneak attack.

(There's an enormous debate that crops up on the Rules board every few months on whether you can provide flanking to your ally if you're using a ranged weapon; the rule in 3.5 is, arguably, oddly worded on this one.  My advice: avoid this topic like the plague. )


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 10, 2005)

(looks tired)

  Some things just have to be done the hard way.  There are no short cuts.

  (Without reading the PHB.  The PHB is in the other room.)

  Drill Sargeant to Yours Truly:  CADET, WHAT ARE THE FULL ROUND ACTIONS AND DO THEY OR DO THEY NOT PROVOKE ATTACKS OR OPPORTUNITY?

  Yours Truly:

  Full Attack / No
  Charge / No
  Deliver a Coup de Grace / Yes
  Escape from a Net / Yes
  Extinguish Flames / No
  Light a Torch / Yes
  Load a Heavy or Repeating Crossbow / Yes
  Lock or Unlock a Weapon in a Locked Gauntlet / Yes
  Prepare a Splash Weapon / Yes
  Use Action that takes 1 Full Round / Usually
  Use Touch Spell to touch up to 6 friends / Yes
  Withdraw / No

  Drill Sargeant to Yours Truly:  CADET, WHAT ABOUT FREE ACTIONS?

  Yours Truly:

  Activate a Quickened Spell / No
  ?
  Drop an item / No
  Drop to the ground / No
  Prepare spell components to cast a spell / No
  Speak / No

  Drill Sargeant to Yours Truly:  CADET, WHAT ABOUT NO TIME ACTIONS?

  Yours Truly:

  ?
  5 foot step / No

  Drill Sargeant to Yours Truly:  CADET, WHAT ABOUT MOVE ACTIONS?

  Move / Yes
  Control a frightened horse / Yes
  Direct or redirect an active spell / No
  Draw a weapon / No
  Load a light or hand crossbow / Yes
  Open or close a door / No
  Mount or dismount / No
  Light a torch with (?) / No
  Ready / No
  ?

   Drill Sargeant to Yours Truly:  CADET, WHAT ABOUT STANDARD ACTIONS?

  Attack, Melee / No
  Attack, Ranged / No
  Attack, Unarmed / Yes
  Activate a magical item other than a potion or oil / No
  Aid Other / Maybe
  Bull Rush / No
  Charge / Yes
  ?

  Drill Sargeant to Yours Truly:  CADET, YOU JUST EARNED YOUR ENTIRE PLATOON A FREE 5 MILE RUN.


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## MerricB (Dec 10, 2005)

There's a reason that table's on the DM's Screen, btw. 

It is one of the few tables that I sometimes refer to... rarely.

Actually, I can't think of the last time I looked up something on my DM's screen...

Cheers!


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 10, 2005)

(weary, tries again with maximum effort)

  I say:  The sooner you get it done, the sooner the pain will stop.

  (Player's Handbook is in other room, no notes, reciting from memory)

  Standard Actions:

  Attack, melee / No
  Attack, ranged / Yes
  Attack, unarmed / Yes
  Activate a magical item other than a potion or applying oil / No
  Aid other / Maybe
  Bull rush / Yes
  Cast a spell (1 standard action casting time) / Yes
  Concentrate on maintaining an active spell / No
  Dismiss a spell / No
  Draw a hidden weapon / No
  Drink a potion or apply oil / Yes
  Escape a grapple / No
  Feint / No
  Light a torch using a tindertwig / Yes
  Lesser spell resistance / No
  Make a Dying person stable / Yes
  Overrun / No
  Read a scroll / Yes
  Ready (triggers a standard action) / No
  Sunder a weapon (attack) / Yes
  Sunder an object (attack) / Maybe
  Total defense / No
  Turn or Rebuke undead / No
  Use extraordinary ability / No
  Use skill that requires 1 standard action / Usually
  Use spell-like ability / Yes
  Use supernatural ability / No

  (goes back to hard study.  The drill sargeant is not appeased.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 10, 2005)

(drawing on memory only, maximum possible effort)

  STANDARD ACTIONS:

  Attack, melee / No
  Attack, ranged / Yes
  Attack, unarmed / Yes
  Activate a magic item other than a potion or oil / No
  Aid other / Maybe
  Bull rush / Yes
  Cast a spell (spell with casting time of standard action) / Yes
  Concentrate on maintaining an active spell / No
  Dismiss a spell / No
  Draw a hidden weapon / No
  Drink a potion or apply oil / Yes
  Escape a grapple / No
  Feint / No
  Light a torch using tindertwig / Yes
  Lessen spell resistance / No
  Make a dying person stable / Yes
  Overrun / No
  Read a scroll / Yes
  Ready (triggers a Standard Action) / No
  Sunder a weapon (attack) Yes
  Sunder an item (attack) Maybe
  Total defense / No
  Turn or Rebuke Undead / No
  Use extraordinary ability / No
  Use skill that takes one action / Likely
  Use spell-like ability / Yes
  Use supernatural ability / No

  MOVE ACTIONS:

  Move / Yes
  Control a frightened mount / Yes
  Direct or redirect an active spell / No
  Draw a weapon / No
  Load a light or hand-held crossbow / Yes
  Open or close a door / No
  Mount or dismount / No
  Move a heavy object / Yes
  Pick up an item / Yes
  Sheath a weapon / Yes
  Stand up from prone / Yes
  (something)
  Retrieve a stored item / Yes

  FULL ROUND ACTIONS:

  Full round attack / No
  Charge / No
  Deliver a coup de grace / Yes
  Escape from a net / Yes
  Extinguish flames / No
  Light a torch / Yes
  Load a heavy or repeating crossbow / Yes
  Lock or unlock a weapon in a locked gaunlet / Yes
  Prepare a splash weapon / Yes
  Run / Yes
  Use skill that requires 1 round / Likely
  Use touch spell to touch up to 6 friends / Yes
  Withdraw / No

  FREE ACTIONS:

  Cast a quickened spell / No
  Cease concentration on a spell / No
  Drop an item / No
  Drop to the ground / No
  Prepare spell components for a spell / No
  Speak / No

  NO-ACTION:

  Delay
  5 foot step

  VARIES

  Disarm
  Grabble
  Trip an opponent 
  Feats

  (bangs head against wall repeatedly, knowing that he didn't get them all.)


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## Tarril Wolfeye (Dec 10, 2005)

You're doing this the wrong way.
There's no need to know what all Full-round actions are, etc.

This is how you should do it: 
Presented with an action, you can name if it is a free, move, standard or full-round action.
So, in combat, if a player tells you what he does, you can tell him when he has done all he can do in this round.

Your drill sergeant should call out an action and you can name what kind it is and if there's an AoO.

Examples:

Drink a potion!

Draw your Weapon!

Drop to the Ground!

Cast a Spell!

Get up!

Hit him with your Fist!

Overrun!

Charge!

Speak!

Move!

Stabilize your Dying Comrade!

Attack your Foe's Battleaxe!

Pick that Dagger up!


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 10, 2005)

(looks rather frustrated)

  Well, my effort only partially worked anyways.  My memory isn't what it was.
  I can't recite all the Standard Actions, Move Actions, Full Round Actions, Free Actions, No-Action Actions, and Variable Actions from the chart now.  I can still recite many of them, but not all.
  A teenager would have taken one look at that chart, and memorized it lickety-split.  Like a dog picks up fleas.  

  I've gone over the situational modifiers.  LOL.
  If you're in a dungeon, and you lose your light, you're in big trouble.  The enemy with Darksight have + 2 to hit you (for invisibility, both melee and ranged.)  You CAN'T attack them directly:  you can attack into the square where you think they are.  If that is the correct square, you have a 50% chance of hitting.  
  So when the drow use their magic to extinguish your magical light source from a distance, and the next thing you know you're walking in a slave line run by the drow, you'll know why.

  Invisibility is nice.  Again, they CAN'T attack you unless they know exactly what square you're in.  They can try to guess what square you're in, and if they attack that square they have a 50% chance of hitting you.  If you are fighting them face to face, 5 feet away, they still have that 50% chance of missing.

  For the purposes of the Special Attacks, I'm creating a character.
  This character is named Joe Fighter.  He has the following stats:

  Joe Fighter, Player Character.

  Medium sized human.
  Strength 13, Dexterity 13, Constitution 13, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 13, Charisma 13.
  Character Level 1.  Fighter 1st.

  Hit Points 11.
  BAB + 1.  
  Fortitude Base Save Bonus:  + 2
  Reflex BSB:  + 0
  Will BSB:  + 0

  Feats:  Armor Proficiency Light, Armor Proficiency Medium, Armor Proficiency Heavy, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Endurance, Diehard, Dodge

  Armor Class: 22 (+ 8 Armor, + 2 Shield, + 1 Dexterity, + 1 Dodge)
  Attack Bonus Long Sword + 2 (+ 1 BAB, + 1 Strength)
  Attack Bonus Short Sword + 2 (+ 1 BAB, + 1 Strength)
  Attack Bonus Long Bow + 2 (+ 1 BAB, + 1 Dexterity)
  Modified Fortitude Save:  + 3 (+ 2 BSB, + 1 Constitution)
  Modified Reflex Save:  + 1 (+ 0 BSB, + 1 Dexterity)
  Modified Will Save:  + 1 (+ 0 BSB, + 1 Wisdom)  
  Movement:  20 Feet
  Armor Check Penalty:  - 8

  Items (all items are Medium items unless otherwise denoted) :

  Full Plate Armor
  Heavy Shield (steel)
  Long Sword
  Short Sword
  Long Bow
  Quiver and 20 Arrows

  I will use Joe Fighter as my example character to ask questions.

  Is Joe Fighter constructed correctly, first of all?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 10, 2005)

If I created Joe Fighter correctly, I can use him for further questions.
  But did I create him correctly?

  If I did, he is my FIRST 3rd Edition D&D character.

  (Yes, I know a 1st level character would not have the money for Full Plate Armor.)


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## Finley DaDum (Dec 10, 2005)

*On Joe Fighter*

Only comment would be that the dodge bonus to AC is only vs. one opponent and has to be declared during your turn.

Joe Fighter needs skills to be fully completed though.


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## MonsterMash (Dec 10, 2005)

Armour check penalty will be -8 IIRC, -6 Full Plate -2 Large Steel Shield, unless masterwork items in which case penalties are reduced by 1 on each.

What skills are you going to give (total skill points are 16 if I've calculated correctly 1st level human 4 + (2+1 (for int) x4) - 16.)


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## kenobi65 (Dec 10, 2005)

Other than what's already been noted, he seems to be correctly (if inefficiently) put together.

Endurance, Diehard, and Dodge are probably not the most optimal set of starting feats, but that's personal choice.  Me, I would have at least gone for Weapon Focus, if not Power Attack (in order to get Cleave soon thereafter).


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## kenobi65 (Dec 10, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> If you're in a dungeon, and you lose your light, you're in big trouble.
> 
> {snip}
> 
> Invisibility is nice.




Yeah, concealment (which is what darkness and invisibility grant) can be a complete PITA.

Player: "I hit!"
DM: "Roll for the miss chance for concealment."
Player: "&%#$@!  Now I missed!"


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 10, 2005)

Edena - unless beating the Drill Sargeant is some personal victory you could do what the rest of us mortals do and cheat 

Wonko the Sane found me this link a while back so I'll pass it on.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=105443

Agraminyu's reference sheets are brilliant. Sprinkle a couple of the player reference sheets around the table, give the casters the magic sheets and keep the DM and campaign sheets for yourself and you're set.

A lot of this stuff is on the DMs screen as already pointed out but having multiple refence sheets for the players stops them having to ask you.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 10, 2005)

I skipped the skills for now.
  I gave Joe Fighter feats that would not affect most kinds of combat (at least, I think they won't) so that I could ask questions about him concerning the special attacks.  I realize the feats are wrong for Joe Fighter.

  I updated the Armor Check penalty for Joe Fighter to - 8, by the way.

  I ... hmmm ... am being overwhelmed by it all.  You remember your very first game of D&D?  How it was all big and mysterious and all that?  Well, that's me here.
  I'm a bit intimidated, too.  (When you look at page after page of rules that you can't decipher, it can be intimidating.)
  That's why I tried (and might succeed) in memorizing the Standard Actions, Full Round Actions, and all of that.  Because if I do, it will seem less overawing, less intimidating.
  The drill sargeant is, of course, me.    When I find a new group and start playing again, I don't want to burden the DM.  I don't want to force the DM to spend time helping me (holding my hand, as it were.)  The poor DM has enough troubles of his own.

  And yet, for all my efforts, I keep missing obvious things.  And I'm not remembering obvious things from the past (EVERYONE knew dexterity was the key to attack rolls for ranged weapons in 2E, including me.  Forgetting that, is like forgetting that 2 + 2 = 4! )

  I want to open the PHB and DMG, and read the pages, and those pages be friendly, like the old books were.
  I don't want to open the books, and be intimidated by them.  They should be old friends.

  Anyways, since Joe Fighter is - minus the skills - complete, I can now place him in hypothetical situations (like a grapple attempt), show what happens, and ask you if I got it right.
  I really DO appreciate your help.  And the moderators for allowing this thread, too.  Thank you all.

  So, I'm back to asking questions and making comments.  One day perhaps I will be as proficient as you'all are with 3.5.  
  Maybe soon I will be proficient enough to shop-talk with people on ENWorld.  I will be able to make relevant comments on topics, and will actually have something to say.  When people discuss new feats and prestige classes and settings, it will mean something to me, and I can enjoy the conversation.  And that will be nice indeed.  But for now, I'm still Mr. Questions.

  I bookmarked the link.  Thank you very much, BeauNiddle.

  Yours Sincerely
  Edena_of_Neith


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 10, 2005)

Joe Fighter, Player Character.

  Medium sized human.
  Strength 13, Dexterity 13, Constitution 13, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 13, Charisma 13.
  Character Level 1.  Fighter 1st.

  Hit Points 11.
  BAB + 1.  
  Fortitude Base Save Bonus:  + 2
  Reflex BSB:  + 0
  Will BSB:  + 0

  Feats:  Armor Proficiency Light, Armor Proficiency Medium, Armor Proficiency Heavy, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Endurance, Diehard, Dodge

  Armor Class: 22 (+ 8 Armor, + 2 Shield, + 1 Dexterity, + 1 Dodge)
  Attack Bonus Long Sword + 2 (+ 1 BAB, + 1 Strength)
  Attack Bonus Short Sword + 2 (+ 1 BAB, + 1 Strength)
  Attack Bonus Long Bow + 2 (+ 1 BAB, + 1 Dexterity)
  Modified Fortitude Save:  + 3 (+ 2 BSB, + 1 Constitution)
  Modified Reflex Save:  + 1 (+ 0 BSB, + 1 Dexterity)
  Modified Will Save:  + 1 (+ 0 BSB, + 1 Wisdom)  
  Movement:  20 Feet
  Armor Check Penalty:  - 8

  Items (all items are Medium items unless otherwise denoted) :

  Full Plate Armor
  Heavy Shield (steel)
  Long Sword
  Short Sword
  Long Bow
  Quiver and 20 Arrows

  -

  Joe Fighter sees Joe Orc standing 30 feet away.
  Joe Orc is a medium humanoid, all stats 13, character level 1, fighter 1st, hit points 11, BAB + 1, Fort + 2, Ref + 0, Will + 0, Feats as per Fighter plus Dodge, Diehard, and Endurance, and is also wearing full plate, carrying a heavy steel shield, and has a long sword, short sword, and long bow.  
  In other words, Joe Orc is just like Joe Fighter, except he's nasty and evil and otherwise orcish to the hilt.

  Neither Joe Fighter or Joe Orc are surprised, so there is no surprise round.
  Joe Fighter rolls initiative 7, and Joe Orc rolls intiative 5.  With Dexterity modifiers of + 1 each, Joe Fighter wins initiative.
  On round 1, the two close with each other, but neither hits the other.  Round 1 is a dud.

  -

  On Round 2:

  Joe Fighter attempts a BULL RUSH against Joe Orc.
  - Joe Fighter moves into the square occupied by Joe Orc.  This provokes an AOO from Joe Orc.  Joe Orc takes his AOO with his long sword, rolls a 13 (+ 1 BAB and + 1 for Str makes it 15) and misses (Joe Fighter is AC 22 on round 2, was AC 20 when flat-footed.)  Nobody else is nearby to make AOOs against either Joe Fighter or Joe Orc.
  - Joe Fighter and Joe Orc make an OPPOSED STRENGTH CHECK.  Both are Medium sized, so there are no Size Modifiers.  Joe Fighter was not charging, so he does not get a + 2 bonus.  The orc is not especially durable on his legs, so he does not get a + 4 bonus.
  Joe Fighter rolls a 17 on a d20.  Joe Orc rolls an 8 on a d20.  Joe Fighter has a BAB + 1 and a Str + 1 bonus, so his modified roll is a 19.  Joe Orc has a BAB + 1 and a Str + 1 modifier, so his modified roll is a 10.  Joe Fighter wins, because his roll is higher.
  - Joe Fighter pushes Joe Orc back 10 feet (5 feet, plus Joe Fighter beat Joe Orc's roll by 9 points, meaning he can push him back another 5 feet.)
  -  Joe Fighter only gets 1 attack with his primary hand (and he isn't using his secondary hand) so he has used up his one attack for the round.  Joe Fighter's minature is moved back one space, since he cannot end his move in Joe Fighter's square.

  Joe Orc (not happy with being shoved around) attempts to DISARM Joe Fighter on his initiative, on round 2.
  - Joe Orc attempts to disarm Joe Fighter with his long sword.  He is attempting to disarm Joe Fighter of a melee weapon.  This attempt provokes an AOO from Joe Fighter.  Joe Fighter takes his AOO with his long sword, rolling a 5 (modified to 6 for Str) an obvious miss.
  - Joe Orc and Joe Fighter make OPPOSED ATTACK ROLLS.  (This concept is not real clear to me ...)  Joe Orc rolls a 15, while Joe Fighter rolls a 12.  Both have + 1 BAB and + 1 for Str, so the rolls are modified to 17 and 14.  Joe Orc rolled higher, so he wins.  He disarms Joe Fighter, and Joe Fighter's long sword flies from his grasp and lands on the ground in Joe Fighter's square.

  It is now Round 3, and it is now Joe Fighter's turn.  
  -  Joe Fighter decides to pick up his weapon.  This provokes an AOO from Joe Orc.  Joe Orc rolls a 19 with his long sword.  He has BAB + 1 and + 1 for Str.  His modified roll is 21.  But Joe Fighter is AC 22, and he does not lose his Dex or Dodge Bonus (he designated the orc as his foe for his + 1 Dodge bonus) for picking up his sword.  Thus, Joe Orc misses.
  - Joe Fighter now has his weapon.  Picking it up was a Move Action.  Joe Fighter is still allowed a Standard Action, and Melee Attack is a Standard Action.  Joe Fighter attacks, rolls a 17, which is modified to a 19 (+ 1 BAB and + 1 Str) and misses because Joe Orc is AC 22 (Joe Orc designated Joe Fighter as his foe for his Dodge bonus also.  This could be a long combat ...)

  It is now Joe Orc's turn, and he strikes at Joe Fighter, rolls a 20 and that is an automatic hit (but it would have hit anyways, since his + 1 BAB and + 1 Str added up to a 22, and Joe Fighter had a 22 AC.)
  - Joe Orc rolls badly for damage.  He rolls a 2.  A long sword does x 2 on Criticals, and Joe Orc has a + 1 bonus for Str, so his damage is 6 points (2x2, + 2.)

  Round 3 is now over.

  Is everything I wrote above correct, so far?  Especially, did I get Bull Rush and Disarm right?
  Did I get Opposed Strength Checks and Opposed Attack Rolls right?


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## kenobi65 (Dec 10, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> It is now Joe Orc's turn, and he strikes at Joe Fighter, rolls a 20 and that is an automatic hit (but it would have hit anyways, since his + 1 BAB and + 1 Str added up to a 22, and Joe Fighter had a 22 AC.)




There's an important step missing here.  Rolling a natural 20 (or, hitting when the number on the die is within the crit range) is a critical *threat*, not a critical *hit*.  Joe Orc needs to confirm the crit.

He does this by rolling the d20 again, and using the same modifiers he had on the roll that created the threat.  In this case, he again gets +2.  If he hits the opponent's AC *again* on the confirmation roll, it's now a critical hit.  Otherwise, it's just a normal hit.  (And, in this case, since Joe Orc only has a +2 attack bonus, and Joe Fighter has an AC of 22, Joe Orc would need to roll a 20 again to confirm.)





			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> - Joe Orc rolls badly for damage.  He rolls a 2.  A long sword does x 2 on Criticals, and Joe Orc has a + 1 bonus for Str, so his damage is 6 points (2x2, + 2.)




The way I've always seen crits done is, rather than multiply the dice, you actually roll the dice multiple times.  So, if you do 1d8+1 damage with a longsword, you roll 2d8+2 on a crit.


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## Flyspeck23 (Dec 10, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I ... hmmm ... am being overwhelmed by it all.  You remember your very first game of D&D?  How it was all big and mysterious and all that?  Well, that's me here.
> I'm a bit intimidated, too.  (When you look at page after page of rules that you can't decipher, it can be intimidating.)
> That's why I tried (and might succeed) in memorizing the Standard Actions, Full Round Actions, and all of that.  Because if I do, it will seem less overawing, less intimidating.




Don't feel intimidated, because then the rules have already won 
Relax, it's cool. You seem to know the previous editions quite well, so how bad can it get?

As others have pointed out above, if you know the difference between a standard and a full round action, the only thing left to do is to decide what type a particular action is. d20 is, at its heart, a very logical games with logical rules. No need to memorize it all.

And btw, the "big and mysterious" part is great, and I sometimes wish I could go back there when 3rd edition was still new (and 2e before that). Funny, but for me it's only the most recent edition of D&D that ever evokes those feelings, and no other RPG...




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> When I find a new group and start playing again, I don't want to burden the DM.  I don't want to force the DM to spend time helping me (holding my hand, as it were.)  The poor DM has enough troubles of his own.




Oh, some DMs would _love_ to help new players to understand the rules. I know I do


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## Staffan (Dec 10, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> - Joe Fighter and Joe Orc make an OPPOSED STRENGTH CHECK.  Both are Medium sized, so there are no Size Modifiers.  Joe Fighter was not charging, so he does not get a + 2 bonus.  The orc is not especially durable on his legs, so he does not get a + 4 bonus.
> Joe Fighter rolls a 17 on a d20.  Joe Orc rolls an 8 on a d20.  Joe Fighter has a BAB + 1 and a Str + 1 bonus, so his modified roll is a 19.  Joe Orc has a BAB + 1 and a Str + 1 modifier, so his modified roll is a 10.  Joe Fighter wins, because his roll is higher.



The roll is a Strength check, so BAB doesn't enter into it. Just Strength, and some other modifiers that are irrelevant to the situation at hand (e.g. size).


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## Aaron L (Dec 10, 2005)

On a crit, damage is rolled again, including all damage modifiers except those which grant extra dice (a +5 sword gets the +5 doubled, but a +5 flaming sword doesnt get the 1d6 flame damage doubled.  Strength bonus is always doubled.  Or tripled, or what have you.)

A crit with a +5 longsword does 2d8+(strength bonus*2)+10

A crit with a +5 flaming, shocking, acidic longsword does 2d8+(strength bonus*2)+10+1d6+1d6+1d6

Just remember: if its + a number, its gets multiplied in the crit.  If its +D whatever, it doesnt.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks again for helping me.  For example, I would never have caught that you don't add BAB to Opposed Strength Checks.  And I did not understand Criticals.  I think I do now.  
  Cheers to you all.  

  I'll follow with more examples later.  And, unfortunately, I will continue to make mistake after mistake after mistake (I will doggedly continue with it, but I can only hope YOU don't become so frustrated with me you give up.  I'm a real clutz here, I fear.  I feel like a toddler learning to walk!    )

  I'll continue with Joe Fighter and Joe Orc.  You can see why I made them such basic characters.

  I'm going offline for now.  I will be back tonight.  Thanks again, everyone.

  Yours Truly
  Edena_of_Neith


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## FireLance (Dec 11, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Joe Fighter sees Joe Orc standing 30 feet away.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Maybe just one minor point here: "the two close with each other" covers quite a lot of possibilities that could have gone on in the first round.

1. Joe Fighter wins initiative. He is 30 feet away from Joe Orc, and his move is 20 feet, so he can charge Joe Orc if the terrain between them is clear and he already has a weapon in hand.
- Joe Fighter charges, and gets a +2 bonus to his attack roll.  In addition, Joe Orc is flat-footed, so his AC is only 20 (from armor and shield; Dexterity and Dodge bonuses do not apply). Joe Fighter needs to roll an 16 or better to hit Joe Orc.  However, he rolls a 12 and misses.  
- It is now Joe Orc's turn, and he decides to attack Joe Fighter. Joe Fighter has acted and is not flat-footed, so he gets his Dexterity and Dodge bonuses to AC.  However, he has charged, so his AC is penalized by 2. Joe Fighter has AC 20 and Joe Orc needs to roll an 18 or better to hit him.  He rolls a 9 and misses.

2. If Joe Fighter does not have a weapon in hand, he may draw a weapon as a move action. Because his BAB is +1 or higher, he can combine this with a regular move.
- Joe Fighter uses his move action to move 20 feet towards Joe Orc, drawing his longsword while he does so. He still has a standard action left, so he declares that he will ready an attack against Joe Orc when he comes within melee reach.
- Joe Orc is now 10 feet from Joe Fighter. If the terrain between them is clear, and he has a weapon in hand, he can charge Joe Fighter, getting a +2 bonus to hit, and taking a -2 penalty on AC. If not, he can also move towards Joe Fighter, drawing a weapon as he does so and attack as a standard action.
- Either way, Joe Fighter gets an attack against Joe Orc before Joe Orc attacks him because he has readied an attack. He needs to hit AC 22 if Joe Orc simply moved and attacked, or AC 20 if Joe Orc charged. Joe Orc is no longer flat-footed since he has acted.
- Joe Orc then gets to attack Joe Fighter. Joe Fighter's AC is 22, but Joe Orc's attack bonus is +2 if he simply moved and attacked, and +4 if he charged.

3. Instead of readying an attack, Joe Fighter could move and delay his standard action until Joe Orc acts. If Joe Fighter delays instead of readying an action, Joe Orc's attack resolves first, and then Joe Fighter gets to use his standard action. This gives Joe Fighter the flexibility of responding to what Joe Orc does, but it changes the initiative order. In subsequent rounds, Joe Orc acts before Joe Fighter.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 11, 2005)

The opinions of a Newbie (probably wrong, but here they are)

  I am very rapidly coming to believe that any basic fighter worth her salt should have the following feats:

  Combat Expertise
  - Improved Disarm
  - Improved Feint
  - Improved Trip
  Combat Reflexes
  Dodge
  Improved Unarmed Strike
  - Improved Grapple
  Power Attack
  - Improved Bull Rush
  - Improved Overrun
  - Improved Sunder
  Quickdraw
  Weapon Finesse

  This represents a fighter (IMO) who not only knows her armor, shield, and weapons, but actually knows how to fight, as in Fight fight.  She doesn't stand there fencing, she fights to win.  She can brawl, grapple, or do whatever dirty work it takes to win.
  She's still not a specialist at anything.  She's just a good Fighter at fighting.

  -

  Why these feats first?

  Consider:

  Combat Expertise 

  You must have this Feat to take the Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, and Improved Trip Feats.  And being able to substitute a bonus to your AC from your BAB, up to + 5, can be useful ... especially if you're injured badly.  Most fighters, like Arilyn Moonblade (Arilyn Moonflower, really) tend to get injured badly.

  - Improved Disarm

  A disarmed opponent is in real trouble.  If he stoops to retrieve his weapon, Arilyn gets an immediate AOO against him.  If he draws another weapon, that's a move action expended by  him (no Full Round Attack is now possible for him, and a lot of other actions are now prohibited as well.)   If he runs out of weapons, he's got more trouble, since any unarmed attacks by him against Arilyn provoke AOOs from her.  

  - Improved Feint

  If Arilyn can deny an opponent his Dexterity and Dodge bonuses, her love Danilo Thann can then easily succeed with a Touch Attack or Ranged Touch Attack spell.  Any other allies of Arilyn (especially those with Full Attack Rounds coming) are going to have a field day.
  And, of course, Improved Feint is a move action, so Arilyn herself gets an attack immediately following the feint (or any other standard action she wants to take.)

  - Improved Trip

  Based on what I know of trip, it's really nice, but you provoke an AOO if you try it.  With this Feat, Arilyn don't provoke such an AOO.  A tripped opponent is prone, Arilyn gets + 4 to strike at him with her moonblade, he is at - 4 to strike back, and if he tries to stand she gets an AOO.  A tripped opponent is easily to disarm, since Arilyn is at + 4 to hit.
  Yes, if Arilyn fails in her trip attempt, the opponent can try to trip her.  Arilyn isn't going to attempt it unless she thinks she can succeed!

  Combat Reflexes

  Who wouldn't want this one?  Arilyn can make AOO when flat-footed.  If she trips an opponent, and he tries to get up and then tries to run, she gets 2 AOOs against him just for that, in addition to her normal attacks.  This means, he isn't going anywhere.
  If in a major melee, with many beings crammed together, jostling, confused, moving in and out, Arilyn is going to get multiple AOO against multiple foes.

  Dodge

  This feat isn't so impressive in itself, but it's bonus stacks with Dexterity and other Dodge bonuses.  And it must be taken to obtain more specialized Feats (I could be wrong, but Spring Attack seems like an very strong Feat.  The opponent doesn't get to strike back at all.)

  Improved Unarmed Strike

  This one speaks for itself.  No weapon?  No problem, because the foe does not get an AOO against Arilyn if she attacks by kicking the foe, chopping with her hands at the foe, trying to poke an eye out, or other similar attacks.
  Arilyn can make unarmed strikes for lethal damage without the - 4 penalty.
  And best of all, Arilyn is still considered Armed, when unarmed.  She can make AOOs normally, even without the moonblade, into adjoining 5 foot squares.  If her opponent is unarmed, she gets AOO against him every single time he attacks (if she has Combat Reflexes, which she should have.)  He dooms himself to oblivion if he tries multiple attacks against her unarmed.

  Improved Grapple

  Grappling is a part of combat, IMO, pure and simple.  Few fighters just fence, they struggle and brawl and duel and try to win!  
  If Arilyn has this Feat, she provokes no AOO for attempting to grapple (which means her opponent can't disrupt the grapple)  She gets a + 4 bonus to all grapple checks, sorta like she was a Large being.  If she grapples successfully, she can attempt a pin (also with the + 4) and a pinned opponent is doomed.

  Power Attack

  A favorite, apparently, of every fighter.  Substitute damage for your BAB, up to your BAB.  Arilyn gains double this bonus for wielding the moonblade in both hands.  And this extra damage is applied to each of her attacks, not just one (including her AOO.)

  - Improved Bull Rush

  This Feat allows Arilyn to move the opponent to where she wants him, which is nice if it's into quicksand, water, a hole in the ground, or the like.  But Bull Rush provokes an AOO;  with this Feat it does not.  And this Feat adds + 4 to the Bull Rush.

  - Improved Overrun

  No avoiding your overrun.  No blocking your overrun.  Arilyn slams right into the opponent regardless of what he does to avoid her.  + 4 to knock him down.  If he's knocked down, he's got a serious problem ...

  - Improved Sunder

  The opponent has one heck of a big two-handed sword, or one of those greataxes.  He's really, really, really good at wielding those weapons, too.  Arilyn doesn't wish to be struck by those weapons, so she attempts a sunder.  No AOO for the opponent.  The opponent also has a magical necklace or headband, and she can attempt to sunder those, also provoking no AOO.

  Quickdraw

  It takes a move action to draw a weapon normally.  No Full Round Attack for anyone who must draw weapons!  But Arilyn has quickdraw, so she can draw her moonblade and make a Full Round Attack with it in the same round.  Or draw a hidden dagger and attack once with it.

  Weapon Finesse

  If you are dextrous, this Feat allows flexibility.  If you do not have the Two-Weapon Proficiency Feat, this Feat helps with the penalties if you are dextrous.  If you like to pick up and use improvised weapons in your off-hand (anything from beer mugs to small rocks to sharpened sticks) then this Feat helps with the penalties.  Combine this Feat with Two-Weapon Proficiency, and you will be adept at picking up and using just about anything Light in your off-hand, if you're dextrous.

  ...

  Am I right on this?
  What are your opinions?

 And, where/how do I get ALL of the above Feats as part of a 1st Level Starting Fighter Package?


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## glass (Dec 11, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (chuckles) Then add that Diehard Feat where you can function at negative hit points. THAT'S who I want in the front of the party, defending my cleric!  (And I see that clerics have an orison that stops the barbarian from dying from going to negative hit points, based on what I've read further on in the book.  The cleric starts with 3 of those, too.)



Diehard tends to get you killed, because if you are still up the enemy will still be hitting you.



> I like the Uncanny Dodge ability of the barbarian a lot.  It seems from reading further that everyone gets caught Flat-Footed, typically, but not anyone with Uncanny Dodge.  So the barbarian will start the fight with full Dex bonuses.
> If you're not wearing armor (and from reading further on it seems wearing armor in 3.5 is quite onerous) then you're dead, if caught Flat Footed with no dexterity bonus to AC.



Technically, a character with Uncanny Dodge is still flat-footed, he just doesn't suffer for it like others do.



> Greater Rage:  If what I am reading is true, a 20th level barbarian using Greater Rage, who had an 18 constitution before using Greater Rage, would gain 60 hit points.  That is because the hit point bonus at 18 con is + 4, but the hit point bonus at 24 con is + 7, and the barbarian gains 6 points of con from his Greater Rage.  Multiply 3 times 20 levels, and you have 60 hit points.



Sounds about right, except that a 20th level barbarian wouldn't be using greater rage: as you mention below, he has mighty rage by then. Don't forget though, you loose those hp again when the rage ends. That can be nasty if you have taken damage in the mean time.



> Tireless Rage:  So Fatigue causes - 2 to Strength and Dexterity, right?  That alters BAB, damage rolls, and AC normally, right?  They are all penalized?



Yes, except Strength changes affect his total attack bonus, but not his _base_ attack bonus.


glass.


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## monboesen (Dec 11, 2005)

Well thats a very long list of feats. While they are all good I hardly think a fighter needs all of them. Remember you can still try many of those tricks (disarm, trip etc.) without the feats. You are just not as good at it.

In my experience it pays of to specialise in D&D. You choose something to be good at and then spend feats, skills and money (on equipment) to excel at that. If you try being an all-rounder you end up being bad at everything and good at nothing.

So you either choose to be a tripper, or a grabbler or a power attack/cleaver. There is room for some overlap, but it wouldn't IMO pay of to go for all those feats.

As few players take fighter levels beyond 4-6 level (by then they multiclass with another fighting class, rogue levels or a prestige class), it would be a rare character that had the feats to take all those on your list.


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 11, 2005)

A true Master of Melee probably would want all of those. And the nice thing about fighters is they can acrue all of those feats in their career (although not at first level unfortunately).

However a lot of fighters wish to become Wielder of Weapon X and thus concentrate on weapon focus, weapon specialisation, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialisation rather than the more generic feats.

Improved Feint - not particularly useful for fighters as they rarely have a high bluff score. Also having flat footed opponents doesn't give that much of a bonus since a fighters BAB is often enough to get through the armour regardless of if the enemy has a dex bonus or not. This is a great feat for Rogues or Fighter/Rogues tho (since it gives them a chance to sneak attack).

Combat reflexes - only really worth it if you have a dex bonus of +2 or greater. Since a lot of fighters aim for full plate with a max dex of +1 a high dex bonus isn't that common. For those with this is a good feat.

Improved Unarmed Strike - locking gauntlets are great for beating disarm attempts. Quick draw is also another solution. I've not seen anybody take this feat but then again I haven't seen many characters so your milage may vary 

Improved grapple - chances are the creature grappling you is big than large so I'm not sure a +4 bonus is worth it. However considering how dangerous grappling is it's probably a good choice especially since fighters have feats to burn

Weapon finesse - again good for dextrous characters. You'll need a dex bonus at least 2 better than your strength bonus otherwise it can be more effective to take weapon focus.

Quickdraw - this is a really useful feat for fighters who use lots of weapons. Round one use a bow, at the end of the round drop the bow (free action) and quickdraw a reach weapon (free action). The enemy then charges you giving you an AoO for movement. Round 2 drop the reach weapon, quickdraw a melee weapon and still get a full attack. It's a nice feat however a lot of fighters don't bother taking it since you can combine drawing a weapon with a move as long as you have a +1 BAB. This means even if you start the round with a sheathed weapon you can draw it whilst closing with the enemies.

You might also want to look into (improved) Shield Bash - can be very useful for Sword and Board fighters.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 11, 2005)

I'm calling the 14 Feats above the Down and Dirty Feats, simply because it seems to me that they make for a good Down and Dirty fighter.  

  As far as I know, a fighter would gain them as follows:

  1st level:  1 Feat + 1 Feat (if human) + 1 Fighter Feat
  2nd level:  1 Fighter Feat
  3rd level:  I Level Feat
  4th level:  1 Fighter Feat
  6th level:  1 Level Feat, 1 Fighter Feat
  8th level:  1 Fighter Feat
  9th level:  1 Level Feat
  10th level:  1 Fighter Feat
  12th level:  1 Level Feat, 1 Fighter Feat
  14th level:  1 Fighter Feat
  15th level:  1 Level Feat

  (Obviously, nobody is going to take a fighter to 15th level, and select those Feats.  I was just giving an example of how I * think * you could create my theoretical Master Down and Dirty Fighter.)

  I suppose a Gestalt character could do it faster, but I don't know how.  You can't be a Fighter/Fighter, even with the Gestalt rules, and the other classes are not Feat rich (Rangers and Paladins, for example, do not get free Fighter Feats at 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc. levels.)

  But woah, if you had the 14 Down and Dirty Feats, and THEN you specialized, everyone watch out!


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## glass (Dec 11, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I've read the Critical Rules.  Nasty.  And some weapons are a lot better at criticals, like that funny looking knife (The Kukri.)  You get double, triple, or quadruple the damage (before Strength modifiers.)  2 - 16 isn't bad damage for a long sword.
> 3 to 36 points for a Great Axe Critical?



Not before strength modifiers. They get multiplied too, along with any other bonus damage that isn't dice.


glass.


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## glass (Dec 11, 2005)

Voadam said:
			
		

> Yes it is. And they are no longer Chaotic Evil either. Now they are neutral evil.



They are? Wow, I missed that.


glass.


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## glass (Dec 11, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Is anyone else just having a complete ball reading Edena's reactions?  It's totally taking me back to when I first cracked open the 3.0 PHB.  "They changed *this?* Holy cow!  Ooh!  Look at that!  Shiney!"
> 
> Thanks for a very entertaining thread, Edena!



I'm enjoying it, when I really should be doing coursework...


glass.


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## glass (Dec 11, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Kenobi, the rest of you ... if Divine Grace allows you to use your Charisma bonus for all your Saves, does that stack with your other attribute bonuses to Saves (Dexterity, Wisdom, possibly other stats.) ?



Yes, divine grace is in addition to the normal ability score modifiers.


> If you are allowed your Charisma bonus to Attack, does that stack with Strength and/or Dexterity bonuses?



Divine Grace doesn't do this. There may be a feat or other ability out there somewhere that does, but if so it would depend on how it was worded as to how it worked.


glass.


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## Staffan (Dec 11, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Combat Expertise



Combat Expertise is useful, especially when you're low on hp or are fighting things you really don't want to hit you (like various undead). However, the stereotypical big burly fighter might not have the brains necessary to take it - you do need Int 13.


> - Improved Disarm



Many, possibly most, opponents you'll be fighting in D&D don't use weapons. Also, many of the ones who do are much larger than you are, which means they'll get big bonuses to resist being disarmed.

Also, I think disarming is pretty redundant with trip, really. A disarmed opponent has to use a move action, which might give an AoO, to return to his former fighting capability. However, if they have Quickdraw, they can draw another weapon instead and still full-attack you. If you trip (with Improved) an opponent, you get a free attack - not so with disarm. And trip can be used on pretty much everyone, while disarm is limited to opponents that use weapons.



> - Improved Feint



You only deny them Dex bonuses against *your* next attack. This one is mostly useful for rogues, who use it to set their opponent up for a sneak attack - rogues tend to do wimpy damage when not getting sneak attack damage, so giving up your full attack routine in exchange for one hit with sneak attack damage isn't a bad option (especially at low levels when you don't get multiple attacks anyway).



> - Improved Trip



Improved Trip is a very, very good feat. In fact, it might be too good with the rule change in 3.5 (in 3.0, standing up from prone didn't provoke an AoO), as it does three things: negate AoO, +4 to attempt, and free attack if it succeeds.



> Combat Reflexes



I mostly see this on characters who use reach weapons, and thus tend to focus a lot on AoOs. For a regular sword&board fella, this has limited utility. Especially considering that many fighters tend not to have very high Dex scores in the first place, given that using heavy armor won't let you add most of it to your AC.


> Improved Unarmed Strike



This is a "cool" feat, but not very powerful. It does give you a non-disarmable 1d3 weapon, and IMO most serious fighters *should* know how to handle a brawl, but they just seem to care more about other feats.


> Improved Grapple



In my campaign, I have a monk/fighter who focuses on grappling attacks. Against those opponents it works against (humanoids, mostly), it works VERY well - incapacitate the opponent and then hurt him (it doesn't hurt that he gets monk damage on the grapple either instead of the normal 1d3). Against opponents that have lots of things going for them in a grapple (most Large+ creatures, which there are a lot of), it's not so hot.



> - Improved Bull Rush
> - Improved Overrun



Both of these are very situational feats. Wanting to push people around on the battlefield doesn't happen that often. But the warforged fighter in my campaign seems to like his Improved Overrun, so...


> - Improved Sunder



The main problem with this, from a metagame perspective, is that if you break the opponent's weapon, you don't get to have it after the fight.


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## Vanye (Dec 11, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Combat Casting:  A + 4 bonus to Concentration checks when Casting on the Defensive.  Doesn't seem like much, but then in 3.5 + 4 is typically a big thing, so ...
> (In my opinion, the best defense is a good offense.)




Someone else may mention this in the thread (i'm a few days behind    ) but IMO this feat is pointless.  Skill Focus: Concentration is much better, since it applies to all attempts to use the concentration skill, and the bonus is almost as good (+3, vs +4).  Sure, you're out the +1, and I've seen the +1 make a difference...but CC is about the only example of a pointless feat that I can think of.

Of course, for the poor bastard who routinely fails their concentration check, having them both can be nice...but I think it's a suboptimum choice even then.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 11, 2005)

I realize that thousands of threads similar to this one came up when 3.0 first came out.
  I'm late to the party, as usual.

  Yeah, I'm going to call those 14 Feats the DDG Feats, or Down and Dirty Generalist Feats.
  And, I'm guessing that a fighter with the DDG Feats, while not eloquent about things, could take on the specialists and win.  

  -

  GRAPPLING

  It is the beginning of Round 3, in the combat between Joe Fighter and Joe Orc.
  Joe Fighter has 4 points of lethal damage, and Joe Orc has no damage at all.
  It is Joe Fighter's initiative.

  Joe Fighter decides he is going to GRAPPLE Joe Orc.

  Joe Fighter is holding a One-Handed Weapon.  Joe Fighter is also carrying a Heavy Shield.  He may Grapple (as can Joe Orc, also carrying a One-Handed Weapon and a Heavy Shield) but it's going to be messy.
  Both Joe Fighter and Joe Orc remain at AC 22.

  - Joe Fighter begins the Grapple.  This provokes an AOO.  Joe Orc makes the AOO, rolls a 14 (modified to 16 for + 1 BAB and + 1 Str) and misses.  Since Joe Fighter took no damage, he can continue the Grapple.
  - Joe Fighter makes a MELEE TOUCH ATTACK against Joe Orc.  He receives his + 1 BAB and + 1 Str bonus for this attack.  Joe Orc receives no Armor bonus or Shield bonus, but keeps his Dexterity and Dodge bonuses.  Joe Orc is + 1 for Dex and + 1 for Dodge, and thus AC 12 against this attack.
  Joe Fighter rolls a 10, gains + 1 for BAB  and + 1 for Str, making it a 12, and GRABS Joe Orc.
  - Joe Fighter and Joe Orc make an OPPOSED GRAPPLE CHECK.  Joe Fighter rolls a 15.  His BAB + 1 and Str + 1 make that a 17.  Joe Orc rolls a 13.  BAB + 1 and Str + 1 make that a 13.  Joe Fighter wins and HOLDS Joe Orc.  (Had they both rolled a 15, their Grapple Check Bonuses would have been the same at + 2 (+ 1 BAB, + 1 Str) so they would have had to roll again to break the tie.)
  - Joe Fighter moves into Joe Orc's square.  There is nobody else around to make AOO against Joe Fighter, fortunately for Joe Fighter.  Joe Orc gets no AOO for this move by Joe Fighter.

  The Grapple used the equivalent of one melee action for Joe Fighter.  
  Joe Fighter COULD NOT make a second grapple attempt with his off-hand now, had he failed to grapple Joe Orc with his primary hand.
  Joe Fighter could not, because he did not declare he was using both hands, when he declared the first grapple.  Had he declared he was using both hands, he COULD have made 2 grapple attempts (one with each hand, even though his hands are full with long sword and heavy shield) at - 6 and - 10 respectively, to both the Touch Melee Attack to Grab, and the Opposed Grapple Check to Hold.

  - Joe Fighter still has a move action left.  He drops his long sword (a Free Action) and then he uses his move action to try to draw his short sword with his primary hand.  He and Joe Orc make another opposed grapple check.  Joe Fighter rolls a 10 (+ 1 BAB and + 1 Str make it a 12) and Joe Orc rolls a 15 (+ 1 BAB and + 1 Str make it a 17).
  Joe Orc snarls and keeps Joe Fighter's short sword sheathed, hand clamped on arm.

  - Joe Orc does not attempt to break the grapple.  Instead, he declares he is going to use both hands to inflict lethal damage on Joe Fighter.  He accepts the - 6 / - 10 penalty and the - 4 penalty (lethal damage.)
  - Joe Orc drops his shield as a Free Action.  But instead of dropping his long sword, he sheaths it.  This is foolish, since it triggers an AOO from Joe Fighter.  Joe Fighter rolls a 5 for a non-lethal unarmed attack (BAB + 1, Str + 1 make that a 7) and misses.  Sheathing the sword takes up Joe Orc's move action for the round.
  - Joe Fighter's non-lethal unarmed attack also triggers an AOO, even though it was an AOO itself.  But Joe Orc has already used his AOO this round, and does not get another one (he does not have Combat Reflexes.  If he did, he could make that AOO with his own unarmed non-lethal attack, and then the exchange would stop.  Because even if both of the combatants had Combat Reflexes, they cannot get more than one AOO from any specific triggering action from any one opponent.)
  - Now Joe Orc attacks.  The opposed grapple checks are rolled.  Joe Orc rolls a 19 (BAB and Str make it 21, - 6 makes it 15, - 4 makes it an 11) and a 13 with his off-hand (BAB and Str make it a 15, - 10 make it a 5, and - 4 makes it a 1.)
  Joe Fighter rolls a 2 (BAB and Str make it a 4, no penalties since he never declared two-handed fighting) and a 5 (BAB and Str make it a 7.)
  Joe Orc was successful with his primary hand (11 versus 4) and rolls 1d3 + 1 for Str.  He rolls a 1, plus Str 1, for 2 points of lethal damage against Joe Fighter.
  Joe Fighter now has 7 points of lethal damage against him, and he becomes completely infuriated.

  It is now Round 4.  

  Joe Fighter's initiative is up.

  Joe Fighter declares he is attempting to Pin Joe Orc.  He is not going to use both hands for the attempt, to try and get two attempts.  He declares he can beat down this demon-spawn with his good right hand.  (He is still holding his shield in his off-hand, by the way.  So is Joe Orc.  That is why they are both still AC 22.  They are AC 20 to everyone else - if anyone else was there - due to lost Dexterity and Dodge bonuses, but are still AC 22 to each other.  Not that this is particularly relevant in a Grapple.)
  Opposed grapple checks are rolled.  Joe Fighter rolls an 11 (BAB and Str make this a 14) and Joe Orc rolls a 6 (BAB and Str make this an 8).
  Joe Fighter pins Joe Orc.  Joe Orc is now at - 4 to Armor Class for all opponents but Joe Fighter, and his Dexterity is considered 0, meaning all opponents including Joe Fighter get a + 5 to attack him.  (Joe Fighter's total bonus is + 5.  A nearby companion, were there one, would get a + 9.  However, for opposed grapple checks, the + 5 does not apply and is therefore meaningless.)
  Furthermore, Joe Orc is now Prone, so he has a - 4 to melee attack rolls.  (However, he makes opposed grapple checks normally, including the roll needed to break a pin.)

  Both Joe Fighter and Joe Orc have been cussing at each other.  Joe Fighter shuts Joe Orc up now (that works automatically, as a Free Action) and goes on cussing himself.

  Joe Fighter has used his melee attack for the round in pinning Joe Orc.  He has a move action still.  He wants to draws his short sword.  He knows that this time, it provokes no AOO because Joe Orc is pinned.  And Joe Orc cannot stop him:  Joe Orc CANNOT DO ANYTHING FOR 1 ROUND, and thus Joe Orc is not allowed to do anything at all on Round 4.
  But Joe Fighter can't draw a weapon while pinning someone.  Joe Fighter can't even try to pick up his dropped long sword.  Joe Fighter can't think of anything useful to do with his move action.  Joe Fighter decides there isn't anything better than bashing Joe Orc's head in, and foregos his move action. 

  Round 5:

  Joe Fighter attempts to damage Joe Orc.  He declares lethal damage, taking the - 4 penalty for inflicting lethal damage with a non-lethal attack.  (As previously stated, he tries to bash his head in!)
  Joe Fighter only declares one attack.  He does not try to use his off-hand.
  Opposed grapple checks are made.
  Joe Fighter rolls a 10, which BAB and Str modify to a 12, but the penalty modifies to an 8.
  Joe Orc rolls a 7, modified for BAB and Str to a 9.
  Joe Orc wins.  Joe Fighter should not have let anger get the better of him:  had he attacked for non-lethal damage, he would have inflicted it.

  Joe Orc now attempts to break the Pin.  Joe Orc foolishly insists he will use both hands to do it, taking the - 6 / - 10 penalty, so he can make two attempts.
  Opposed grapple checks are made, twice.
  Joe Fighter rolls a 13, modified to 15.  Joe Orc rolls a 18, modified to 20, modified to a 14.
  Then Joe Fighter rolls a 5, modified to a 7.  Joe Orc rolls another 18, modified to 20, modified to 10.  What'cha know?  Joe Orc breaks the pin.  He is a lucky orc today.

  Joe Orc still has a move action available.  He stands up, accepting the AOO this causes.
  The angry Joe Fighter declares he is using his AOO to pin Joe Orc again.  (Joe Fighter is persistant ...)
  Opposed grapple checks again.
  Joe Fighter rolls a 15 (modified to 17.)  Joe Orc rolls a 10 (modified to 12.)  Joe Fighter slams Joe Orc back down onto the floor.
  As a result of this, Joe Orc will get NO action of any sort during Round 6 (he was pinned during his action on Round 5.)

  Round 6:

  The infuriated Joe Fighter declares he is using both hands to inflict non-lethal damage.  This means he is at - 6 and - 10, but gets two attempts to inflict said damage.
  Opposed grapple checks again.
  Joe Fighter rolls a 7 (modified to 9, penalized to 3) and a 20 (an automatic hit, regardless of bonuses or penalties)  
  Joe Orc rolls a 12 (modified to 14) but does not roll against the natural 20.
  Joe Fighter rolls 1d3 + 1 for Str, rolls a 3, and inflicts 4 points of non-lethal damage on Joe Orc.

  Joe Orc would love to do something, but as previously noted he gets no action this round.

  Round 7:

  Joe Fighter repeats his 2 handed attack, making two attempts to inflict non-lethal damage.
  Two more opposed grapple checks.
  Joe Fighter rolls a 15 (modified to 17, penalized to 11) and a 17 (modified to 19, penalized to 9).
  Joe Orc rolls an 8 (modified to 10) and a 2 (modified to 4.)  This is his unlucky round.
  Joe Fighter hit both times, and rolls twice.  He rolls a 3 and a 1, adds Str + 1 twice, and inflicts another 6 points of non-lethal damage on Joe Orc.  Joe Orc now has 10 points of non-lethal damage.  2 more points, and he's unconscious.

  Joe Orc again attempts to break the pin, and declares only one attempt.
  Opposed grapple checks.
  Joe Fighter rolls a 4 (modified to 6.)  Joe Orc rolls a 14 (modified to 16.)
  Joe Orc breaks the pin.  But Joe Orc is still grappled.
  Joe Orc again tries to stand up from prone.  Again, Joe Fighter tries to re-pin him with his AOO.
  The opposed grapple rolls are:  Joe Fighter 5 (modified to 7) and Joe Orc 10 (modified to 12.)  Joe Orc stands back up successfully.

  Round 7

  Joe Fighter breaks off the Grapple.  This is a Free Action.  And then ...


  Is the above right?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 11, 2005)

What do the rest of you think of my Dirty 14 Feats?
  Do you think they would create a good Generic Down and Dirty Fighter?  Could this fighter take on the Specialists of the world (such as Drizzt Do'Urden, Arilyn Moonblade, Sturm Brightblade, Alhana Starbreeze, or Telden Moore?)
  Is there a better (or much better) Generic combination?

  Is there a way, using the gestalt rules or other non-core official (WOTC published) rules, to increase the number of Feats a character can obtain, so a speedier access to such capabilities exist?  (Yes, I realize that is min/maxing.)
  Is there another feat intensive class I've missed?  Are there any prestige classes that are feat intensive?  (I haven't gotten to prestige classes yet.)

  The reason I ask the above is simple:  I am wondering if it is possible to recreate some of the characters of books and films I have read and watched, without ratcheting the character level above 10th or even 15th level?  I am wondering if such characters are possible down in, at least, the 5th through 10th level category?
  Arilyn Moonblade (Moonflower, but she disowned that name) is an example.  Must I ratchet her to 15th level to duplicate what I read in the books, because taking all the feats I read of her using requires it by the rules?  Or can I duplicate her at 7th level, or 8th level?  (... even if I have to use the gestalt rules to do so, assuming the gestalt rules can help with feats:  perhaps there IS a fighter/fighter concept somehow?)

  Most of the fun, back in 1st and 2nd edition, was below 10th level, in the games I played.  I don't know about 3rd edition, but based on what I'm reading it seems at least a third of the fun is below 10th level here, too.

  -

  I spent over an hour writing that grapple post above, and I doubt I got it all right.  Gods, but the way you'all breeze unthinkingly through stuff I have to slowly muddle through.  I envy you.  Really!  (Just wait until I get it down, and we can talk shop, though ...  )


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## Silveras (Dec 11, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> What do the rest of you think of my Dirty 14 Feats?




I think you are looking at them the wrong way. It sounds like you are looking at them as enablers - something needed to even try some of those maneuvers. They are not (or at least not all are). Many (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush) reduce the penalties for specific attacks. Those attacks are often "niche" maneuvers. 

Most people get more punch from Power Attack + Cleave + Great Cleave + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Specialization; if nothing else, the greater attack bonuses serve to make the penalties for the more esoteric attacks less painful, and the benefits are available to all attacks. 

Really, for more specialized roles, a whole new class built around that concept makes more sense (see the Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior for a lightly-armored "stunt" combatant), or a Prestige class that specializes the character in one of those roles.


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## MonsterMash (Dec 11, 2005)

I actually like the Blindfight feat for fighters as it helps against concealed or invisible opponents, especially for humans or other races without low-light or darkvision.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 12, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> What do the rest of you think of my Dirty 14 Feats?
> Do you think they would create a good Generic Down and Dirty Fighter?  Could this fighter take on the Specialists of the world (such as Drizzt Do'Urden, Arilyn Moonblade, Sturm Brightblade, Alhana Starbreeze, or Telden Moore?)
> Is there a better (or much better) Generic combination?




As others have pointed out, your list has a lot of really niche-y choices in it.  Yeah, it makes your character better at each of those odd combat maneuvers...but a lot of them just aren't going to come up that often.  (And, to qualify for quite a few of them, you need an Int of 13+...which means, if you're using a point-buy, you're shortchanging another ability score that the fighter could use.)

When I was converting Olivia (my fighter that we talked about earlier) to 3E, I gave her a feat build that led to Whirlwind Attack...because I'd read several blurbs in the PR on 3E that this was one kick-butt feat.  You know what?  I've only ever used it once.  It's just very rare that I find myself completely surrounded by bad guys (and, even then, at the high level she's at, it'd take more than one blow to kill them).  I view a lot of the "special combat maneuvers" feats the same way -- they can be good in certain circumstances, but they probably aren't going to be your PC's bread-and-butter.  With feat slots being fairly precious (even for fighters), I just don't see them being generally worth it.

And, as others have already said, rather than trying to be good at *all* of those oddball maneuvers, it might make more sense to take one or two (esp. since many of them simply make you better at a maneuver you can use without the feat), and focus your other feats on your primary weapons.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Is there a way, using the gestalt rules or other non-core official (WOTC published) rules, to increase the number of Feats a character can obtain, so a speedier access to such capabilities exist?  (Yes, I realize that is min/maxing.)




Not as far as I'm aware.  As it is, fighters get a metric buttload of feats, far more than any other class.  The pace at which one receives feats (or other class abilities) is a balancing factor.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Most of the fun, back in 1st and 2nd edition, was below 10th level, in the games I played.  I don't know about 3rd edition, but based on what I'm reading it seems at least a third of the fun is below 10th level here, too.




Here's another 1E / 2E mindset you may need to learn how to set aside.  Part of the reason that 1E / 2E were more fun below 10th level was that the game mechanics really broke down at about that point, and had a hard time handling high-level characters.  In theory, 3E / 3.5 is able to handle higher-level PCs (the designers will say it should be just fine all the way to 20th level, though others might debate that point).

I certainly feel that the sweet spot is still in the 5th - 12th level range...but you need to realize that "iconic" NPCs (from novels, etc.) may, under 3E, be higher level than they were in earlier editions.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 12, 2005)

I would like to make a hypothesis on D&D 3.5.  Call it a guess.
  Once I've made it, could the experienced players here tell me what they think?
  If you are one of the people who designed 3rd Edition, could you tell me if I guessed right?

  My guess is about a specific prohibition set forth by WOTC.  Now, I have only read a tiny fraction of what WOTC has published.  I haven't even peaked into most of their books.  I haven't read the 3.5 Dragon and Dungeon and Polyhedron Magazines published by WOTC and the other publishing companies.  I haven't read the products created by the Designers of 3rd Edition who no longer are at WOTC, but who have created their own products for D&D 3.5, such as the popular Arcana Unearthed by Monte Cook.  I haven't read but a bare fraction of the d20 products, whether created by the Designers of 3rd Edition or not created by them.

  But I am willing to bet they all have one thing in common, and it is the prohibition I am going to discuss.

  There are 1,500 feats published by WOTC.  There are thousands more published by others.
  There are at least hundreds of skills.  Maybe thousands.  
  There are at least hundreds of prestige classes.
  There are thousands of spells.

  And there are rules that allow you to min/max skills until you have massive bonuses with them.
  There are rules that allow you to take multiple prestige classes, to multi-class yourself wild (with the obvious drawback of split experience.)
  There are rules that allow you to throw multiple spells at once.
  Heck, there isn't practically anything you can't do in 3rd Edition.

  But ...

  There are no rules that allow you to bulk up on large numbers of extra feats.  And there never will be.

  -

  I just read chapter one of the 3.5 DMG.  And in that chapter, they discussed concepts I've read about previously for decades.
  But in the 3.5 DMG, they were very eloquent about the points they wished to make, and among these points is the necessity of balance.
  They weren't talking about some mystical balance in the stars.  They weren't talking about the balance between good and evil.  They weren't talking about anything complicated or difficult at all.
  Their definition of balance is a single sentence:

  ALL THE PLAYERS ARE ENTITLED TO AN EQUAL SHARE OF THE FUN.

  That's a balance I can believe in.  That's a balance I appreciate.  That's a balance I want in my games.

  Yet, we know the characters are not balanced.  Tordek cannot cast spells.  Mialee cannot proficiently wield an axe.  Jozan cannot sneak attack.  Lidda cannot turn undead.
  This inbalance is something we all know well.  And we know it's a Balance of Imbalances, where the characters must depend on each other, because no one character can do it all.

  That's right:  the characters must depend on each other, because no one character can do it all.  A balance of imbalances.  

  And thus, you might say, everyone has a chance at an equal share of the action, and thus an equal share of the fun.

  But ...

  In 3rd Edition, any race can be any class can be any multiclass can be any prestige class can do whatever they please!!!
  In 1st edition, the balance of imbalance was maintained by requiring that each character take one class and one class only, or multiclass with restrictions that made it not worth the candle (that is, you had to be non-human, and take severe level limit penalties:  ORIGINALLY an elf could rise to be a mere 5th level fighter (or if very exceptional, up to 7th level), or a 9th level mage (if very exceptional, up to 11th level), and could not be a druid, paladin, ranger, illusionist, monk, or bard at all.  And NO exceptions.)
  In 2nd edition, the balance of imbalance was maintained in a similar fashion, except level limits were raised and more multiclass options allowed (this pleased a lot of players, but it did not necessarily improve the balance of imbalances, as some players will point out.)
  So whither 3rd Edition?
  In 3rd Edition, any race can be any class can be any multiclass can be any prestige class can do whatever they please!!!

  So where is the balance of imbalance?
  What forces the characters to rely on each other?
  What allows each character a fair share of the action, and thus the player has a fair share of the fun?

  Feats.

  Feats are the classes of 3rd edition.
  The classes of 3rd edition are the honorary titles.  The feats are the real classes.
  The fighter takes feats.  Feats define what he can do.  Feats define the kind of fighter he is.
  The wizard takes feats.  Feats define what she can do.  Feats define the kind of wizard she is.  (Her ability to cast spells is a kind of feat.  What particular spells she selects for the day, could be described as daily feats for the wizard that incur additional restrictions such as memorization and sleep.)
  All the other classes have special abilities that are, IMO, variants of feats.  Some directly relate to feats (such as a ranger's ability to take certain feats without qualifying for them first.)  Others are not described as feats, but they might as well be feats.

  Feats are it.  Feats are where it's at.  And you only get 1 starting Feat (and one more if you're human) plus one at 3rd level, one at 6th level, one at 9th level, and so on.  If you're a fighter, fighter feats.  If you're a wizard, metamagic feats.
  And that's it.  No more.  Zip.  Zilch.  Zero.  Not even the powerful gestalt rules variant allows you a single extra feat.
  No 9th level spell or less in the game allows permanent extra feats ... and no 9th level spell or less in the game ever will.

  Because feats are what creates the balance of imbalance in 3rd Edition.
  Feats, and the inability to take more than a few feats, are what allow each character his chance at action, and the player's fair chance at fun.

  If a rule came into being that allowed a character a large number of extra feats, that character would become the I Can Do Everything Character.  No need for anyone else, no interdependence between characters, and thus no chance for each character to shine in turn ... and no fun for the other players.

  Thus, my question in my previous post cannot be answered, and will never be answered, for the answer is No, There is No Way to Augment the Number of Feats in Any Significant Way.

  Even the epic rules do not violate the prohibition.
  Yes, epic spells can allow a character to permanently gain new feats, and thus gain a large number of permanent, additional feats.  But these are normal feats gained, not epic feats.  Even as normal spells will not grant normal feats, epic spells will not grant epic feats.
  In an epic campaign, normal feats are not meaningful like they were when the campaign was at low level, assuming they are meaningful at all.  Epic feats are what is meaningful, and these cannot be gained by the characters through any known means, be they epic spells or anything else.  Even artifacts are of no avail, for they are standard magical items in an epic campaign and do not have rules-altering power that is meaningful in an epic campaign (those few artifacts that are exceptions, which are so powerful that they can alter the rules in spirit, are invariably fatal or permanently debilitating to characters who dare to wield them.)  

  Thus there is nothing, period, within any of the rules, that allows for large numbers of extra feats.  You may be able to select from hundreds of prestige classes, from thousands of feats, min/max with hundreds of skills, and learn hundreds of spells ...

  But you will never be granted a large number of excess feats by anything other than a DM who wishes this fundamental concept of 3rd edition to be changed.
  Probably, such a change will occur only if you are playing one on one, because then your character (who can now Do It All) cannot hog the game.  There are no other players to hog the game from.
  Perhaps the DM allows a few (but not a large number of) extra feats, to each and every character, for the purpose of compressing the level structure of the game.  That is, he wishes to make a 10th level character into a 5th level character, and a 20th level character into a 10th level character.  Thus he can keep the playing level low in certain ways, while allowing higher powered characters.
  Whether this variant has ever been tried by anyone, I don't know.  Whether it has worked, I don't know either.

  Or the DM can decide to allow large numbers of feats to all the players, in any order and in any way that pleases them.
  Certainly, this could make the players happy in the short term.
  But this is courting unmitigated disaster in the mid and long term, if my guess is correct.

  Feats are the core of the game.  Change the feat rules, and you change everything.

  All this is a guess on my part.  Just a guess.
  I'm a Newbie, and do not know how the game works.  I've said this repeatedly, and say it again:  I don't know what I'm talking about.  It's not beneath my dignity to say that:  it pays to be humble.

  If any of you (and nearly all of you are more experienced with 3rd Edition than me, right now) wish to chime in on this, I would take delight in your comments.
  If I am lucky enough that one of the 3rd Edition Game Designers reads this post, I would be grateful if they would comment on my guess.

  Yours Sincerely
  Edena_of_Neith

  -

  (chuckles)  

  (And that means that No, the Fighter Does Not Get The 14 Down and Dirty Feats at 1st level, or 5th level, or 10th level, but at 14th or 15th level, as the rules - and the prohibition against accelerated feat acquisition - require.)


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## kenobi65 (Dec 12, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> But in the 3.5 DMG, they were very eloquent about the points they wished to make, and among these points is the necessity of balance.
> They weren't talking about some mystical balance in the stars.  They weren't talking about the balance between good and evil.  They weren't talking about anything complicated or difficult at all.
> Their definition of balance is a single sentence:
> 
> ALL THE PLAYERS ARE ENTITLED TO AN EQUAL SHARE OF THE FUN.




Indeed, this seems to be a fundamental precept in the design of 3E.  Whether they really hit it or not is a different debate. 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> In 3rd Edition, any race can be any class can be any multiclass can be any prestige class can do whatever they please!!!




True, to a certain extent...but if you multiclass in a bunch of different classes, while you'll have a wide *range* of abilities, you won't be as good in any one of them as a single-classed character of your level would be.  (Either that, or you just very inelegantly created a bard.  )



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> So where is the balance of imbalance?
> What forces the characters to rely on each other?
> What allows each character a fair share of the action, and thus the player has a fair share of the fun?
> 
> Feats.




I'm not sure I entirely agree with this...or, maybe, it's that you've discovered part of a wider aspect of 3E design.  Feats (as well as skills, class abilities, attack bonuses, spells, etc.) are fairly carefully metered out in 3E.  Just as there's no way to get extra feats, there's no way to overcome the (level+3) cap on skill ranks, there's no way to get 5th level spells before you're 9th level, there's no way to get a BAB that's higher than your character level, etc.

One 6th level PC should be, roughly, about as powerful as another 6th level PC (or, at least, have had the opportunity to be as powerful).  While some PCs will outshine others in certain situations, each PC should be able to have some things that they excel at.


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## Silveras (Dec 12, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I would like to make a hypothesis on D&D 3.5.  Call it a guess.
> Once I've made it, could the experienced players here tell me what they think?
> If you are one of the people who designed 3rd Edition, could you tell me if I guessed right?




I would say that you are partially right. Feat acquisition is a significant part of balance in 3.x. But it is not the only thing. 

Spellcasters can multiclass, if they wish, but the price is one many will say is too high. So much too high that some Prestige Classes and/or feats that might sound a little too good exist merely to redress the problem. 

Skill points are balanced among the classes with a specific number of skills in mind. You will not find many new skills in 3rd party products. WotC, in revising 3.0 to 3.5, reduced the number of skills by making the tasks of some overly-specific skills into tasks on another. Some 3rd party products (I am thinking specifically of the very, very good Shaman's Handbook from Green Ronin) that HAD added new skills followed suit in revising those products to 3.5. You *will*, however, see lots of new things you can do with the existing skills. 

The Balance of Imbalances, as you put it, is indeed present to encourage cooperative parties of disparate characters (which is the reason I object to people urging rules changes toward an all-skills & feats structure instead of classes). 

The main abilities of many classes, though, are not available as feats. You cannot gain a spellcasting progression by taking a feat, for example (though you can gain 1/day uses of some spells). You cannot gain Bardic Music or Bardic Knowledge by taking a feat. You cannot gain the ability to Sneak Attack by taking a feat. You cannot gain the Druid's Wild Shape ability by taking a feat. 

Feats, Skill points, Class/cross-class skill designations, spell progression, and specific class abilities all form part of the balance process. Also, when classes gain bonus feats, it is usually from a specific list, not carte-blanche choice. Being a Fighter gets you bonus combat-oriented feats; it does not gain you feats that pertain to the Rogue's stealthy role. 

So, yes, while Feats are an important part of the balance, they are far from the sole key thing.


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## MichaelH (Dec 12, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Is the above right?



A couple of comments.

You cannot attack with two weapons while grappling (PHB 156), so you cannot attack with your primary hand and your off hand at -6/-10 in a grapple.  On your turn you get to make as many grapple checks as you have BAB.  Thus a 6th level fighter could make two grapple checks on his turn at +6/+1 plus his other relevant bonuses.  Your two fighters can make one grapple check per round.  They can make any number of opposed grapple checks when defending against a grapple on their opponent's turn.  As a side note, even if you could fight with two weapons in a grapple, an unarmed strike is a light weapon, so the penalties for two weapon fighting drop 2 each, to -4/-8 (PHB 160).

Pinned opponents are not prone.  And they can act on their turn after being pinned, but they are very limited in what they can do.  Escaping the pin might be a good idea.  Also, pinned opponents are not helpless so their dexterity is not considered to be 0.  The pinned opponent suffers a -4 to AC due to being pinned plus he is denied his dex bonus to AC because he is grappling, but that's it.  He should beware of enemy rogues in this condition.

Hope that helps you.


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## 3d6 (Dec 12, 2005)

You actually do have a Dexterity of 0 when you are pinned.  Check the Table: Armor Class Modifiers, footnote 4.


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## monboesen (Dec 12, 2005)

I would not agree that Feats are the balancing point or the replacement of classes. IMO it does not even change the balance much to dole out more feats. In one game I am participating in we agreed on everybody gaining a feat each level. Every third feat (3, 6, 9 etc.) must be chosen from a small pool of racial/cultural decided feats (all non-combat feats).

Has this changed the game balance. Not really.

Are out characters massively more powerfull. Not at all.

What it really have allowed us is taking some feats that we feel flesh out our characters. Feats that we simply would not have taken in a standard feat progression game. For instance my characte have taken Improved unarmed strike, a feat that IMO most fighter-types should have. Usually you don't have the luxury of taking it. Has it made my character more powerfull. Marginally perhaps, but its certainly not something that disturbs the game balance. Likewise I have taken the feat Faster healing. Again not a power feat, but something that fits my character concept.

More feats is a bit like the Gestalt rules. You get more options, but as you can do only one thing each round its less powerfull in practice than it looks on paper.

But the bread and butter of a character are. BAB, HD, Saves and Class abilities.

It might be because you are focusing on fighters right now that feats seem so dominant to you. Feats are the fighters class ability, but the other classes have equally (or far more) powerfull class abilities that have nothing to do with feats.


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## Staffan (Dec 12, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> True, to a certain extent...but if you multiclass in a bunch of different classes, while you'll have a wide *range* of abilities, you won't be as good in any one of them as a single-classed character of your level would be.  (Either that, or you just very inelegantly created a bard.  )



"A bard, huh? My father taught me that bards were underpowered."
"Really? So what class are you?"
"I'm a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer who specializes in enchantment spells."
"And that never struck you as needlessly complicated?"
"Not until this moment, no."
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=50


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## Storm Raven (Dec 12, 2005)

3d6 said:
			
		

> You actually do have a Dexterity of 0 when you are pinned.  Check the Table: Armor Class Modifiers, footnote 4.




No, you lose your Dexterity modifier while grappling, but only with respect to those outside the grapple. Against those within the grapple, you retain your Dexterity bonus. Your Dexterity does not drop to 0 while grappling. From the SRD:



> No Dexterity Bonus
> You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)


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## Dr Simon (Dec 12, 2005)

Interesting thread.  A couple of random observations:

The rules are quite daunting at first, but you'll find that it comes together more once you've gone all the way through once and back again. A lot of your concerns that have cropped up can basically be answered with "Keep reading and you'll find out".

The DMG contains a lot of behind the scenes explanation of how and why some mechanics are what they are, and you'll find this very helpful.  Probably the best DMG rule, which can help especially with DMs and Players overwhelmed by the number of different bonus/penalty types (there aren't really that many but they look horrific when listed in one chunk!) is the "DM's Best Friend" rule - if in doubt, wing it with +2 or -2.  But that's later in your journey   

Attacks of Opportunity come on for a lot of flack, but they're not too difficult to wing.  (I found them weakly explained in the PHB 3.0, even with the Bonus Material examples.  Don't know how 3.5 is written.).

Basically, is someone does something within reach of your melee weapon that isn't a direct attempt to damage you with a pointy thing, you get a chance to hit them, unless they have a Feat that negates this (i.e they are particularly good at disarming).   Thus, drinking potions, reading scrolls, trying tricky combat moves like targetting your weapon specifically to break it (Sunder) or knock it out of your hand (Disarm).

Movement only provokes an AoO in three ways which are quite obvious when you think about it.  You are running past somebody.  You are trying to close with someone using a pole-arm.  You are backing away but trying to do something else at the same time (Move + Standard Action).  Running directly away (Double Move) does not provoke an AoO.  Moving in little steps (the "5ft step") does not provoke an AoO. 

This means that a swordsman vs. a pole-arm user is going to, one way or another, suffer an attack from the pikeman before he gets to strike (either he closes to within range of the pikeman, makes no attack, pikeman attacks, next round swordsman takes 5ft step into reach, gets an attack OR rushes in to close with pikeman as soon as possible, pikeman gets an AoO.  Once the swordsman has closed, the pikeman has to keep giving ground or he's in trouble since he can't attack adjacently.  It's all quite obvious if you picture the combat.

As for your example combat, a few thoughts:

I could be wrong, but I don't think one grappling opponent can provoke an AoO from the other.  Certainly somebody in a grapple can't AoO anyone outside it.  Making an AoO needs some degree of mobility which you don't have whilst wrasslin'.

Second, I think by giving your combatants Plate Mail yet only 1st Level BAB, you're setting yourself up for a fairly dull fight full of misses.  Scale Mail (+4) might have been better.

Third, Joe Orc as a 1st level Fighter is tougher than your typical Orc. Most would be a 1st Level Warrior (an NPC class in the DMG.  Pretty much a Fighter but without the bonus Feats).

On the subject of Fighter Feats, your selection covers what I would refer to as a Trick Fighter, although Down and Dirty would also cover it, I guess. It's a viable option (and a path that you couldn't easily follow in older editions without lots of 2nd Ed. supplements) but only one of many.

I recently converted some old characters from my old college campaign to 3rd Ed. and of the more combative characters I ended up with:

A mobile Fighter with lots of hit-and-run style feats.
A trick fighter with many of the combat stunt type feats
A heavy fighter with feats from the Power Attack tree
An archer with the feats from the Point Blank Shot tree
A two-weapons fighter.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 12, 2005)

I'll read the posts above in a moment.  I wanted to make another comment first.

  Whoever thought up the interlocking rules of 3rd edition was a genius.  Someone I know believes they consulted with an army specialist and a psychologist in the process of writing them.  I'm inclined to agree ... and the person who said that, meant it as a compliment.

  Imagine the rules of 3.5 were sentient and took an avatar form (let's say, a celestial.)
  And that avatar had a talk with a player of 3.5.

  The Rules of 3.5:  Hello there.
  The Player:  Hello, indeed.
  The Rules:  Do you like your 1st level character?
  Player:  My character sucks.  He can't do anything.
  Rules:  Did you do your best to build him?
  Player:  Uh ...
  Rules:  Laziness will get you nowhere.
  Player:  Actually, I worked very hard building him.  But he's good at only one thing.  He sucks at everything else.
  Rules:  That's my doing.
  Player:  WHY?!  It's stupid.
  Rules:  Because, your character must now rely on the other characters to survive the adventure. 
  Player:  That sucks.  I want my character to be self-sufficient.  There's nothing wrong with being self-sufficient.
  Rules:  Being self-sufficient is fine, but not in a multi-player D&D game.  If you are self-sufficient, you are not required to cooperate with the other players.  And then, you won't cooperate with the other players.  And then, there is no game.
  Player:  But I am self disciplined, and trained in cooperation with others.  I appreciate the value of cooperation!  I don't need you to force me to cooperate!
  Rules:  Yes I do.  You may be altruistic, but you have human failings like everyone else.  And your character is not you, and may not be inclined to cooperate at all, if you roleplay him correctly.  And look at the people around you:  are they all willing to cooperate as much as you, as altruistic as you, and as self-disciplined as you?  Or do they tend to bicker, fight, be lazy and non-productive, or otherwise not contribute to the team?
  Player:  Well ...
  Rules:  It is not enough for you to be willing to voluntarily cooperate.  I am here to enforce cooperation.  And if you do not cooperate, everyone in the group dies.  
  Player:  You're like a bloody drill sargeant ...
  Rules:  Yes.  Live with it.  You must cooperate.  You don't cooperate or are lazy, everyone dies because you didn't pull your weight.  But likewise THEY must cooperate with you, respect you, and honor your efforts.  If they don't, they - and you - will all pay.  I will make sure of it.
  Player:  Hey, I don't have to live with that.  When I get to high level, I'll be self-sufficient, and I won't need to cooperate with anyone!  And you can stuff it!
  Rules:  When you get to high level, you can be self-sufficient ... against low level opponents.  You can fight orcs all you want, all day.
  Player:  And I will!  And I will gain levels, and I won't need anyone's help.
  Rules:  Wrong.  When you are high level, if you do not face a foe of equal challenge, you will gain little or NO experience.  Your orcs will grant NO experience, even if you kill them by the thousands.
  Player:  That's ridiculous.
  Rules:  That's how it is.  If you want to continue gaining experience and levels, you must face encounters that will force you to continue to rely on your fellow adventurers:  failure to cooperate will bear the same penalties.
  Player:  But my character will be high level!
  Rules:  But the same result will apply:  if you do not pull your weight, or argue, or do not do your best, the party will die.  Your character will die.
  Player:  Wait until my character is Epic Level.  THEN he'll overcome your restrictions.
  Rules:  Wrong.  No matter how high in level you become - even if you become 1,000th level - you will still be required to cooperate, pull your weight, do your best, not fight, not argue, not disrupt, and otherwise be the best player you can be.  Because if you refuse to be all these things, I will make a point of killing your character and all his companions.
  Player:  But what about the Gestalt.  THAT makes my character powerful relative to the challenges.  He's first level, but double the power against a DC 1 Encounter.  Haha, found a way around you!
  Rules:  No, you did not.  Gestalt rules are for parties with fewer than 4 characters ... the fighter, mage, rogue, and cleric.  The man who caries the ammo, the man who carries the weapons, the man who carries the water, and the man who carries the food:  now, one or more of them is missing.  Such a group could not survive on it's own, so Gestalt steps in and rectifies this.  In a 4 player game, you probably will not be allowed to play Gestalt.
  Player:  Who says?!
  Rules:  The DM says.
  Player:  Well, I can influence the DM into doing what I want.  He can change you to suit himself!
  Rules:  Yes, the DM can change me.  But if he does, he risks wrecking the game for everyone.  That includes you, Mister.  No game means no fun, no advancement, no anything for you.
  Player:  What if I play one on one.  THEN I would need to be self-sufficient.
  Rules:  Yes you would.  But such a situation is rare, since D&D is a group game.  In such a rare situation, special exceptions to myself can be made, on a one-time basis.
  Player:  Yes.  And then I can take my self-sufficient character back into a multiplayer game!
  Rules:  Forget it.  That character is permanently restricted to one player games.  I have instructed all the DMs to forbid it in multiplayer games ... because it would lessen the mandatory compulsion I enforce to cooperate and perform out of all the players.
  Player:  Well, I'll find a way around you somehow!
  Rules:  I hope not, since that will merely destroy the game.  And then nobody, especially not you, will have any fun.  You will have wasted what little free time you had, when time is precious to you, and all for naught.

  Player:  What about 2nd Edition.  Back then, alpha males shone and dominated, many players sat back and did nothing, people argued and fought, rogues stole from the party, and everyone still survived.
  Rules:  I was not around back then.  Had *I* been around, I would have killed all their characters forthright.  Death is the penalty for argumentative characters, characters who refuse to be a part of the team at all times, and for parties who refuse to honor and value all of their members.  And there ARE NO EXCEPTIONS made, by me, to this reality.
  Player:  The DM would prevent you from killing them all.
  Rules:  Not even the DM could save them.  I am too well entrenched, and my requirements are too stringent and absolute.  If the DM forcibly altered me enough that they would have survived, the game would have collapsed, which is effective death for the characters in itself.  Either way, whether they die in-game or because the game collapsed, they die.

  Player:  You are too harsh.
  Rules:  I am not harsh at all, merely relentless.  Relentless, about creating an atmosphere where all the players can enjoy themselves equally.  And you will live with me ... or play another game.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 12, 2005)

Hey, thanks for the comments and answers to questions you'all made above.  Thanks for feedback on my hypothesis.

  I'll have to redo the grapple combat between Joe Fighter and Joe Orc to reflect the changes.
  I noticed that none of you stated that holding onto a one-handed weapon and a heavy shield while grappling was illegal.  So, I guess you can grapple while holding pretty much anything (even a double weapon, for instance.)  No?

  No AOO while grappling, against the character you are grappling?  Are you certain of this?
  It would seem to me that AOO would be particularly likely, with opponents so locked together in face to face grappling like that.

  A pinned person is not prone?
  What exactly is he considered to be?
  What can a pinned person do, besides attempt to break the pin?

  You say that the Joe Fighter and Joe Orc aren't going to hit each other.
  Yet, isn't an opposed grapple check simply a matter of who rolls highest?  (which in the case of Joe Fighter and Joe Orc, would mean a 50/50 chance both ways.)

  -

  I like the DM's Best Friend rule, the + 2 / - 2 rule.  That sets other things in perspective.
  I looked the list of possible bonus types in chapter 2 of the DMG.  LOL.
  You may not be able to stack like bonuses, but there sure are a lot of different kinds of bonuses, just within the core rules.  And then there are special bonuses in the optional books, too.

  I was talking with a friend last night.  We discussed what a dragon might do to enhance it's armor class.  
  One of the things that came up were Bracers of Defense, which would stack with the dragon's Natural Armor bonus.
  If the dragon had spells, and pre-cast them, it could create Deflection bonuses.
  And any dragon worth it's salt could create situational bonuses.  (Turn out the lights, and those without Darkvision have a real problem.)

  If the dragon can't create the items himself, it can get others to create items for him.
  Since dragons seem to have an AC around 40 base, this could get to be nasty.

  High level party:  We attack the dragon!
  High level party:  (misses because the dragon is AC 60 or 70.)
  Dragon:  (does not attack)  We will discuss the terms of your surrender now.

  -

  People keep telling me how nerfed magic is in 3.5.  My friend brought up the spell Shocking Grasp.
  Back in the heyday of 2E (you know, the game with all those powerful spells?   ) Shocking Grasp did what, 1d10 points of damage plus a small bonus?

  NOW, a 5th level mage deals 5d6 with Shocking Grasp.  That's as much as a Fireball for her level!  And with a 1st level spell.
  And it gets better.  In 2E, she had to touch the opponent through all armor (not very likely, in the case of an opponent with heavy armor and shield, or good natural armor.)  Now, all she need do is overcome dexterity and dodge modifiers.  And if the hapless target is wearing typical metal armor, she gets + 3 to the roll.

  Can we say, Fighter Fried Chicken?  Or how about, Monstrous Fried Chicken.  

  The poor fighter (or monster) can't even make a run for it.  That provokes an AOO.  And even if the foe isn't struck by the AOO, the mage will just chase him or it, then attack.  Because now, in 3.5, she can hold a charge (hold the Shocking Grasp until she hits with it.)


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## kenobi65 (Dec 12, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> A pinned person is not prone?




Nope; prone is "lying on the ground".



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> People keep telling me how nerfed magic is in 3.5.  My friend brought up the spell Shocking Grasp.
> Back in the heyday of 2E (you know, the game with all those powerful spells?   ) Shocking Grasp did what, 1d10 points of damage plus a small bonus?
> 
> NOW, a 5th level mage deals 5d6 with Shocking Grasp.  That's as much as a Fireball for her level!  And with a 1st level spell.




It's not a bad spell, but I've never heard anyone consider it to be "broken".  Keep in mind that (a) it affects *one* target (compare to Fireball, or even Magic Missile, which can affect multiples), and (b) does require that touch attack (with a couple of exceptions, damage-dealing spells in 3E require either (a) an attack roll, or (b) a saving throw, but usually not both).



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> And it gets better.  In 2E, she had to touch the opponent through all armor (not very likely, in the case of an opponent with heavy armor and shield, or good natural armor.)  Now, all she need do is overcome dexterity and dodge modifiers.  And if the hapless target is wearing typical metal armor, she gets + 3 to the roll.




Still not an auto-hit by any means.  Your 5th level wizard has a BAB of +2.  He almost undoubtedly has a 10 Str or less, so his melee attack is not going to be any better than +2.  Even with that +3 bonus for metal armor, he's still got a fair chance of missing (esp. if the opponent has a Dex bonus to AC, a Ring of Protection, etc.)



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Can we say, Fighter Fried Chicken?  Or how about, Monstrous Fried Chicken.




On average, that's doing 18 points of damage.  If your 5th-level wizard is fighting a level-appropriate fighter-type opponent, they're going to have significantly more than 18 hit points.

And, now you find out the downside.  Wizard casts Shocking Grasp, reaches out, touches armor-clad bad guy, delivers the spell.  Bad guy is *nowhere near dead*, and now Mr. Wizard is next to him.   Can we say, Chopped Wizard?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Dec 12, 2005)

And Wizards are just too easy to hit with Power Attack.


And as for your 14 feats, I must echo the sentiments that some are too niche to get any significant use out of.  After awhile you would realize that you haven't used a few of them in a long time and how much better Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization would be.


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## Dr Simon (Dec 12, 2005)

To be honest, I'm not sure about no AoO whilst grappling, at least against your grappled opponent.  More sure (95%) that you can't AoO anyone nearby your little scrap though. I would have thought that you are supposed to have both (or at least one) hand free to grapple.  Sure it's not in the rules? Seems a bit of an obvious omission.

When I say "won't hit", I mean in your earlier example with the various combat moves etc.  Anything relying on touch attacks or opposed Strength won't be affected by armour, you're right, but a simple melee attack roll against AC 22 is going to be harder for a 1st Level char, even with good Strength and the Weapon Focus feat.

As for the stacking bonuses - although there are quite a few types, the largest number solely apply to Armour Class and it becomes quite easy to work out what they come from.

A pinned opponent is ... pinned.  There should be a glossary at the back of the PHB (and repeated in the DMG) concerning different types of conditions that your character can be in.  Useful for knowing the difference between Dazed and Dazzled, or Frightened, Panicked and Cowering!   Again, like the bonus types it can be a little daunting at first glance but it's all pretty intuitive really.

As for the designers, I don't think they spoke to an Army specialist or psychologist - just played lots and lots of RPGs!


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## kenobi65 (Dec 12, 2005)

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> A pinned opponent is ... pinned.  There should be a glossary at the back of the PHB (and repeated in the DMG) concerning different types of conditions that your character can be in.




From the condition summary in the SRD:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Pinned:* Held immobile (but not helpless) in a grapple.
> 
> *Prone:* The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
> Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.




So, all pinned means is you can't move....though the -4 penalty to your AC against anyone other than the person grappling you should probably have been mentioned in the condition summary (it's mentioned, instead, in the "When You're Pinned" section of the Grapple rules).


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## painandgreed (Dec 12, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Rules:  Wrong.  When you are high level, if you do not face a foe of equal challenge, you will gain little or NO experience.  Your orcs will grant NO experience, even if you kill them by the thousands.




IIRC, double the number of creatures and the CR of the encounter goes up by 2. So you could face an Epic number of orcs in and encounter. Or you could still face encounters several levels below you which would be less XP but much easier or even much easier than you and get no XP but you could get treasure in the form of magic or money to buy items that would make you better. The real trick would be getting the DM not to automatically balance everything equally against the PCs. 

If anything, I'd say that the rules make characters less dependant on eachother. With any character able to multiclass a fighter could pick up levels of cleric and rogue and do away with the need of various other classes. In one game I'm in we are 12th level with no magic users and doing ok. Potions and Use Magic Device by multi-classing rogue have filled in the spot of the magic-user quite nicely as well as giving our fighters hide, move silently, sneak attack, and Uncanny Dodge. Just remember to pick up rogue as your first level because of the front loaded skill point because you lose nothing by picking up fighter later.


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## sniffles (Dec 12, 2005)

Silveras said:
			
		

> I think you are looking at them the wrong way. It sounds like you are looking at them as enablers - something needed to even try some of those maneuvers. They are not (or at least not all are). Many (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush) reduce the penalties for specific attacks. Those attacks are often "niche" maneuvers.
> 
> Most people get more punch from Power Attack + Cleave + Great Cleave + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Specialization; if nothing else, the greater attack bonuses serve to make the penalties for the more esoteric attacks less painful, and the benefits are available to all attacks.
> 
> Really, for more specialized roles, a whole new class built around that concept makes more sense (see the Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior for a lightly-armored "stunt" combatant), or a Prestige class that specializes the character in one of those roles.



Silveras has a really good point here. Many of your "DDG" feats sound like wonderful things to do, but they are things Joe Fighter will seldom get an opportunity to do in a typical combat. As Silveras says, things like trips, disarms and even grapples are "niche" maneuvers. 

Let me give my own current fighter character as an example. He's currently 10th level and has gone into a prestige class that required several feats as prerequisites, so that guided some of his progression. But at the time I created him I didn't plan to go into that prestige class, so a lot of what I've done with him has been by my personal preference. I wanted him to be a two-weapon fighter and also good on horseback. His feats are:

*Weapon Focus* (longsword)
*Animal Affinity* 
*Quick Draw* - I love this feat; I have to restrain myself from taking it with every PC I play.
*Mounted Combat* 
*Two-Weapon Fighting*
*Dodge*
*Mobility*
*Spring Attack*
*Improved Two-Weapon Fighting*

For his next feat I plan on taking *Combat Expertise*. It's a requirement for another prestige class, but it's also a useful feat. Naturally you can select whatever feats you want to produce the "flavor" of fighter you want to play. My fellow players refer to my character as "The Mixmaster" because he can move around in combat, darting between opponents and slashing away with his four attacks per round (two primary, two off-hand, with reduced penalties due to the *Two-Weapon Fighting* feats).


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## MichaelH (Dec 12, 2005)

3d6 said:
			
		

> You actually do have a Dexterity of 0 when you are pinned.  Check the Table: Armor Class Modifiers, footnote 4.



Wow, never noticed that before.  I wish that was in the grapple section.    

It seems that losing any dex bonus to AC plus the -4 penalty to AC is enough for pinned opponents, though.  I wonder if the footnote here is a mistake?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 12, 2005)

I was thinking in terms of a human or humanoid fighting other humans or humanoids, with the DDG feats.  Against monsters, they aren't going to be very useful.
  Against the Three Musketeers, who are super-specialized with swords, disarm and sunder would be quite useful (the same applies to one Drizzt Do'Urden, also.)
  If your trying to take a foe alive, grapple is useful.  If that foe has some sort of killer attack (4 attacks per round, or some nasty spell) grappling takes him out of the combat briefly, while your friends deal with his underlings.
  If you're near 0 hit points, Combat Expertise keeps you alive long enough to maybe retreat from the fight?
  Dodge and Mobility help against all those AOO.  In a combat like the Moria combat in Fellowship of the Ring, AOO would be going off by the baker's dozen every round.
  Improved Unarmed Combat means you can brawl really well.  I ask:  what fighter wouldn't want that, other than the paladin or cavalier, who insist on formal dueling?  (Woe to said paladin or cavalier, when their foes starts fighting dirty.  They might call that dishonorable and foul, but that will be small consolation when they're dead!)
  Power Attack was among my DDG Feats, and everyone seems to like that one, even thought it doesn't seem to be very useful at low levels.

  (Gets this humorous image of someone trying to grapple a beholder.  Result?  CHOMP, crunch, munch.)
  (Notes that grappling Dragonlance kender is a real bad idea.  Not only do you fail to accomplish anything useful, but you lose most of your items.  Probably for good, too, unless you are real good with the Search and Spot skills.    )

  I'll head on to the other special attacks.  The remaining ones being:  Feint, Mounted Combat, Overrun, Sunder, Throw Splash Weapon, and Turn Undead.
  Then I can understand better how your mounted fighter works by the rules, sniffles (mounted combat, ah yes ... the realm of Tolkien's Rohirrim and French calvary and the Mongol horsemen, among other notables.)


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## kenobi65 (Dec 12, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> If your trying to take a foe alive, grapple is useful.




I rarely see grapple used for that purpose.  More often, if they want the bad guy alive, the PCs use nonlethal damage...and I know quite a few PCs who carry saps for that very reason.

IME, 90+% of the grapples I've seen have been monster-initiated, and usually are a prelude to "swallow whole." 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Dodge and Mobility help against all those AOO.  In a combat like the Moria combat in Fellowship of the Ring, AOO would be going off by the baker's dozen every round.




Not necessarily.  Intelligent combatants will (or should) recognize if an action they're considering taken will lower their defenses (i.e., provoke an AoO), and can always choose to not do that.

In my games, AoOs occur occasionally (most frequently when trying to get closer to a monster with big reach), but, honestly, not all that often, especially now that the players understand what provokes and what doesn't.  Usually, an AoO situation crops up in one of two cases:

1) The combatant knows that he'll be triggering one, but doesn't care.  "Yeah, go ahead, take a swing at me, I'm still going past you to help my friend."

2) The combatant is fairly-to-extremely unintelligent, and thus shouldn't be capable of tactics that would avoid AoOs.  For example, a charging dire wolf isn't going to be smart enough to realize he's going to trigger an AoO from a spiked-chain wielder.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Power Attack was among my DDG Feats, and everyone seems to like that one, even thought it doesn't seem to be very useful at low levels.




At very low levels, no, not so much.  But, once your BAB gets up to +4 or so, it can make a difference (esp. if you're using a two-handed weapon, where Power Attack gives you the two-for-one bonus to damage).  And, of course, it's the gateway to Cleave, which *is* a very useful feat, no matter the level.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 12, 2005)

Monboesen, the game you were in (which I assume was a successful, fun game) contradicts my guesswork concerning feats.
  Which means, I could have it all wrong.  (I probably do, but this would confirm it.)

  You are saying that, in this campaign, the characters gained a feat every level, and this was in addition to the usual feats allowed at 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc. and the fighter feats granted fighters and metamagic feats granted mages, and otherwise?

  So, in that campaign, a wizard got:

  1st level:  One feat, plus one feat for being a human.
  2nd level:  One feat.
  3rd level:  Two feats.
  4th level:  One feat.
  5th level:  One feat plus one metamagic feat.
  6th level:  Two feats.
  7th level:  One feat.

  And this worked?

  I would have thought that this would have caused the characters to be much stronger, relative to the DC encounters they had to face.  That is, a 7th level character would be stronger relative to a DC 7 opponent, than a 7th level character under the normal feat rules.
  Wouldn't that reduce the interdependence, the necessity of reliance on the other characters?  And wouldn't that, in turn, lessen the compulsion to cooperate?

  Ok, you say that this did not happen in that game.
  How did the DM compensate for the higher power level?
  How did you handle the Feats?  Can you elaborate further?  It sorta sounds like you took a kind of Gestalt approach to feats, as it were ... you allowed more, but required generalization and forbid specialization.
  Can you elaborate further?

  Has anyone else played in a feat rich game like this?  If so, did it work?  If so, how did your DM compensate for the higher power level?  Or was there a higher power level?

  I *considered* the idea of a House Rule that would allow 1 feat per level, but abandoned the idea when I guessed that the severe limits on feats were put there to force interdependency among the characters.
  But if I was wrong, if my guess was wrong, please show me.  Because obviously I would love a game where everyone got a feat at every level, plus their normal allowed feats!  Who wouldn't, as long as it didn't wreck the game and ruin the fun?

  I mean, they published 1,500 feats.  That's a lot of feats!!!
  But they haven't published one single rule for greatly expanding the number of feats you can take (much less, expanding it to one feat per level.)  I think they are adamant about the feat attainment restrictions, and surely there must be a good reason for that?  No?


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## William Ronald (Dec 12, 2005)

Well, I think one of the reasons for limits on the number of feats and skill points is that characters tend to be specialists than generalists.  It is very hard in the rules for a character to be an expert at everything.  I think this is a somewhat realistic approach, as the characters are mortal and have particular interests.  Indeed, I think that the rules are designed to have a certain amount of cooperation among characters.  No one character can do it all, especially when there are challenges equal to the character's abilities.

So, a Down and Dirty Fighter maybe good in some situations but not all.  In terms of casting spells or disarming traps, the character has severe problems.  (Also, specialists might have ways to counter down and dirty fighters.  For example, ranged attacks can really put a damper on a down and dirty fighter.  Melee specialists might have a harder time of it, but they may decide to try their best tricks to harm their opponents.)  Remember, a PCs best weapons are usually a player's wits.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 12, 2005)

Wait a second, Kenobi.  Consider the Moria combat in the film FOTR once more.
  The orcs were so eager to get at the party they were jumping up on the walls to get past each other.  They just came on in a deluge.  Then the cave troll smashed his way in.

  Remember how Jackson tried to use the camera to show it as if you were one of the combatants?  Momentary glimpses of people.  The shot reeling wildly?  Sudden pans around the room.  (In many cases, you had to slow-forward the DVD to actually see what happened.)
  The room was filled with dust.  Soon, orcs were falling over each other, stumbling over dead bodies, getting whacked across the room by their own cave troll, while nobody on either side had any idea of where anyone else was.
  It was utter chaos.  It was so confused that nobody noticed the cave troll attack on the hobbits initially.  Then, a round or two later, Aragorn finally noticed, but nobody else did (Gandalf didn't notice until after Frodo was stabbed.  Sam didn't notice as he was whacking everywhere with his pans.  Even Legolas was busy somewhere else, and Gimli was always getting knocked down, or stumbling, or diving off of assorting things to avoid being hit.)

  I mean, after about 5 rounds of that combat (30 seconds) I don't think anyone could know where anyone was.  That shadow in the dust could be a friend, or a foe, or the cave troll, or part of the shattered room, or even one of the dead of Balin's people.

  In a situation like that, you'd have orcs bumping into you blindly, you'd be bumping into orcs blindly, everyone is stumbling and half falling over bodies new and old, pieces of broken rock, and heaven knows what else.

  Even an intelligent combatant couldn't avoid AOO in a situation like that.  There are just too many opponents, the situation is too confused, and the visibility too poor.  (Or, in the case of Boromir, being whacked by the cave troll might have made him a little confused concerning where ANYTHING was.  Ah, the joys of being Dazzled ...)

  In that battle, I certainly would want Dodge and Mobility!  And Improved Unarmed Strike, as well, since brawling is inevitable in a crunch situation like that one.

  -

  Arilyn is a favorite character of mine, but if my evil character wanted to defeat her, Sundering that moonblade would help (not having to face 7 Elfshadows, in addition to Arilyn, would be nice for my character!)
  Break her moonblade, and you might demoralize Arilyn.  That weapon is incredibly important to her (can you blame her?)  
  Arilyn will still be a formidable opponent, but her famous moonblade is gone.  You couldn't use it anyways, and selling it would be a major hassle.  So why not break it?  (I broke the mighty elf sword.  Me!  I showed the elves the power of the worms of the earth.  So, It was Grummsh's Will for you to make me King of the Orcish Nation.  All hail the King!)

  Wulfgar's warhammer is another example.  Break it, and you mess up Wulfgar's combat strategy (you also cause Bruenor to go utterly ballistic, but that's another story.)

  Yes, breaking powerful magical items is hard, but once you are up to the daunting task of fighting Arilyn or Wulfgar, you've got a real Power Attack bonus, and a lot of attacks, all of which can be made as sunder attempts.

  If an enemy mage or cleric is waving around that wand, stave, or rod, sundering it isn't so bad, is it?  After all, that way they don't conjure up assorted abominations, outsiders, fey, and heaven knows what else.  And they won't be throwing assorted lightning bolts, fireballs, and death spells at you!


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## sniffles (Dec 12, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I mean, after about 5 rounds of that combat (30 seconds) I don't think anyone could know where anyone was.  That shadow in the dust could be a friend, or a foe, or the cave troll, or part of the shattered room, or even one of the dead of Balin's people.
> 
> In a situation like that, you'd have orcs bumping into you blindly, you'd be bumping into orcs blindly, everyone is stumbling and half falling over bodies new and old, pieces of broken rock, and heaven knows what else.
> 
> Even an intelligent combatant couldn't avoid AOO in a situation like that.  There are just too many opponents, the situation is too confused, and the visibility too poor.  (Or, in the case of Boromir, being whacked by the cave troll might have made him a little confused concerning where ANYTHING was.  Ah, the joys of being Dazzled ...)



I'm inclined to agree with you here. I tend to find that people spend too much time worrying about what provokes an AoO and trying to avoid it. I don't know how many times I've announced an action during a game and had another player immediately exclaim, "But that will provoke an AoO!" as if I'd just announced that I wanted my character to fall on his own sword. I used to reconsider my action every time, but now I don't, unless my character has only 2 HP left or there's some other roleplaying reason for him to change his mind.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Wait a second, Kenobi.  Consider the Moria combat in the film FOTR once more.




I'll grant you everything you say about that combat (which, BTW, I've used as an example of D&D melee for my non-gamer friends).  However...the core D&D rules don't do a good job of capturing the "fog of war" that you describe.

Using a battlemat, it's very hard to avoid having all the players know where everyone is, and what they're up to, unless the DM very strictly enforces "no metagaming / no OOC knowledge" (and I've rarely, if ever, seen such).

And, while there are rules for poor visibility, they mostly tend to give concealment, which just makes combatants harder to hit.  AFAIK, there aren't rules for mistaking friend from foe in combat, short of magical effects like _confusion_.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> In that battle, I certainly would want Dodge and Mobility!  And Improved Unarmed Strike, as well, since brawling is inevitable in a crunch situation like that one.




You're in love with Improved Unarmed Strike, I think.   "Brawling" must come up in your games more often than it does in mine.  When I think of "brawling", I think of the stereotypical barroom brawl, in which the goal is *not* to kill the opponent.  In that case, not having Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't hurt you one bit...you can only do non-lethal damage, which is just fine.  The only time you'd run into trouble is if your opponent either (a) drew a weapon, or (b) had Improved Unarmed Strike himself (and thus, is effectively armed).  In either case, you're probably better off just drawing a weapon, because this is no longer a barroom brawl.

It sounds like you're more concerned about being able to attack effectively when you don't have a weapon in hand (e.g., if someone's disarmed you).  That's why I have my PCs carry a backup weapon or two...1d3 with a punch just ain't doing much; even a dagger is a better weapon.  Even so, I've rarely run into situations where it's an issue...it's come up, but not often enough that I'd blow a feat slot on it.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Yes, breaking powerful magical items is hard, but once you are up to the daunting task of fighting Arilyn or Wulfgar, you've got a real Power Attack bonus, and a lot of attacks, all of which can be made as sunder attempts.




Honestly, if you decide to be a Sunder Monkey, you can pretty much break anything, even if it takes a couple of swings.  With Power Attack and a two-handed weapon, you can do a metric buttload of damage once you get to 7th level or so.  

And, even powerful weapons don't have *that* many hit points.  A +5 longsword has hardness 20 and 60 hit points.  We have one fighter in our group that's built to sunder stuff, if need be.  If he gets all his bonuses cooking, he routinely does 40+ points of damage with a swing...three swings, and he breaks that +5 sword.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 13, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> I'm inclined to agree with you here. I tend to find that people spend too much time worrying about what provokes an AoO and trying to avoid it.




Yeah, I have some players who are that way...and others who are more like you, and weigh the threat versus what they're trying to do. A goblin with a short spear getting an AoO on you isn't going to put much fear in you if you've got 75 hp.


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## monboesen (Dec 13, 2005)

> Ok, you say that this did not happen in that game.
> How did the DM compensate for the higher power level?
> How did you handle the Feats? Can you elaborate further? It sorta sounds like you took a kind of Gestalt approach to feats, as it were ... you allowed more, but required generalization and forbid specialization.
> Can you elaborate further?




I can try.

Your table of when we acquire feats is correct, but the ones we gain on 3, 6, 9 and so on must be picked from a small selection. That selection is determined by race and cultural background. For instance a Dwarf might have the option of taking:

Bullheaded (+1 Will saves; +2 Intimidate), Deft Hands (+2 Sleight of Hand and Rope Use), Dwarven Armor Proficiency (Proficient with all dwarven exotic armors), Great Fortitude (+2 Fort saves), Heavy Armor Proficiency (Proficient with heavy armors.), Improved darkvision (Extends Darkvision to 120 ft.), Improved Weapon Familiarity (Racial weapons are martial.), Nimble Fingers (+2 Disable Device and Open Lock.), Skill Focus (+3 to any Craft skill.)

If we use my character as an example. He is a tough human fighter from a mountainous region. His family has been cursed with an uncontrollable battle rage, dangerous to enemies and allies alike.

In game terms he is a barbarian/fighter and his feat progression looks like this.

1. Power attack, Extra rage
2. Improved unarmed strike, Cleave (fighter bonus feat)
3. Peak hopper (+2 balance and climb, this is a cultural background feat)
4. Faster healing
5. Improved bullrush
6. Shock trooper (fighter bonus feat), Open minded (+5 skillpoints, human background feat)
7. Weapon focus (greatsword)
8. Improved critical (greatsword)
9. Open minded (+5 skillpoints, human background feat)

Is he better than a standard rules character? Obviously yes. Had we used standard rules my feats would likely have been.

1. Power attack, Extra rage
F1. Cleave
3. Improved bull rush
F2. Faster healing
6. Shock trooper
9. Improved critical (greatsword)

So compared to this I have 10 extra skillpoints, +2 bonus to two skills, the ability to fight unarmed and +1 to hit with my weapon of choice IMO that's not really something that makes the character much more powerful. 

In game it represents my background well. The skillpoints allow me to take some skills I would never have put points in, but suit my history. 

The raging curse quickly builds up in peaceful times and leaves my character spoiling for a fight. Frightened of his own rage he lets of this building rage in unarmed brawl (sometimes organised one for money) to minimize the chances of killing someone. Thus unarmed strike fits nicely. 

Lastly the weapon focus, yeah that’s just gravy.

How do we balance it. Well our DM is old school style so less magic items, no item creation feats (doesn't matter as we presently don't have any player casters). We also have an unwritten agreement on spending skillpoints on background skills that may or may not have any effect in game. For instance my character has a fair bit of ranks in Profession (manservant) and Profession (soldier). Two skills that don't often come up in game.

We have never used the standard XP system, so it hardly matters that we perhaps can win fights a bit higher in CR than we should.

I think that about covers it.


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## Dr Simon (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> th Shocking Grasp.  That's as much as a Fireball for her level!  And with a 1st level spell.
> And it gets better.  In 2E, she had to touch the opponent through all armor (not very likely, in the case of an opponent with heavy armor and shield, or good natural armor.)  Now, all she need do is overcome dexterity and dodge modifiers.  And if the hapless target is wearing typical metal armor, she gets + 3 to the roll.
> 
> Can we say, Fighter Fried Chicken?  Or how about, Monstrous Fried Chicken.
> ...




True, *but*:

There are more HP floating around in 3rd Ed. than in earlier editions. Recall how Tiamat had something like 93HP or something weedy like that.  A Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (rated as a challenge for about 12th level parties, i.e. mid-range for 3rd Ed.) has something like 210HP.  5D6 is pretty small beans really. 

The fighter *can* run for it without provoking an AoO - if they make a "double move" action (i.e. move their movement rate twice but take no other action, directly away from the wizard).  Assuming a human in Plate mail, that's 2x20ft = 40ft which is out of reach of the wizard next round.  If you've got a dwarf in plate mail, that's only 2x15ft = 30ft so the wizard *could* make a 30ft move *and* cast another touch spell. (Remember how you wondered why anyone would wear Light Armour?)

However: as others have pointed out - chances are the fighter would survive the jolt and then be able to clout the wizard for almost as much damage. 5th level wizard, average about 12 hp, average sword damage from your typical fighter (assume some Strength bonus), about 7 or so.  5th level fighter, average 32 HPs at least (and will more than likely have a Con bonus).  Potentially each opponent could take out the other in two hits, but if the wizard is standing casting spells he needs to make that Concentration check to not provoke an AoO.  It's quite potent but not a game-breaker by any means!


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## amethal (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> There are no rules that allow you to bulk up on large numbers of extra feats.  And there never will be.



The only loophole which comes to mind is the Flaws, from Unearthed Arcana.

Basically, you can start the game with up to two disadvantages, each of which gives you a bonus feat.

The flaws are worse than a "negative feat" would be, because obviously people will normally choose feats which will be useful a lot of the time, but will choose flaws which affect them as little as possible or penalise them in areas they don't care about anyway.

So if you start with two flaws you can have a whole 2 extra feats.

Some other d20 games are more generous with feats.

True20 gives you a feat every level (but doesn't have any class abilities).

Iron Heroes gives you a feat every 2 levels, and has plenty of class abilities to go with them, but is designed for a game with few or no magic items.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

When I say Woah!, I'm not trying to say it's game-breaking.  I'm merely expressing surprise.  (As in, woah, they really changed this from 2nd edition!)
  The only thing that I thought might be game-breaking, so far, was a massive increase in feats allowed, and it would appear I'm quite wrong about that one (which is fine with me, because my first impression was that a faster feat progression should be possible.)

  EDIT:  Flaws allow up to 2 extra feats at 1st level?  Interesting.  

  (shrugs)  Why not allow gestalt characters to have double feat progression rates?  That is, 2 feats at 1st level (plus 2 feats if human) plus 2 feats at 3rd level, 2 feats at 6th level, 2 at 9th, etc.  They're supposed to be powerful variants on characters, anyways.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

Just an attempt at solving the Fog of War thing:

  What if a Spot check is required to find out what is happening with your friends, since you have to deliberately attempt to look through the chaos and enemy fighters (orcs, in this case) to find your friend and see what his personal situation is?  
  The Spot check is not needed if your friends are 10 feet away and/or if you are not under attack this round.

  For example, Gandalf didn't see that Frodo was under attack.  Nor did he try to make a Spot check to see what was happening to Frodo.  Aragorn, however, did make a Spot check (as shown by that look on his face when he first saw the danger.)
  Merry and Pippin were close to Frodo, so they obviously saw what the cave troll was doing, and took actions against the cave troll before and after Frodo was stabbed.

  There is no real way to avoid AOO in a mass battle, IMO.  Just hope you have Dodge and Mobility.  (In real world mass combats, they wore the heaviest armor they could, and hoped it would save them.  Mail was resistant to the knife in the back type of attack.)

  -

  Yeah, I have sorta fallen in love with Improved Unarmed Strike.  
  I watched Terminator 2, and here you have the Terminator and the T1000 brawling like crazy, whenever firearms are not in play.
  Lurtz didn't hesitate to brawl with Aragorn, instead of using weapons.  He almost won that way, too.
  If I am a warrior, I'm not just going to try to kill the foe with a sword or other weapon.  I'm going to punch, kick, knock dirt up in his face, throw every object at him that is handy, wrestle with him if he closes, try to drown him in the horse trough, and every other dirty tactic I can think of.  Because I'm no paladin or cavalier!  LOL.  James Bond was a brawler.
  As Zaknafein said to Drizzt:  You are a dancer (implied:  you are not a killer.)  A true fighter is a killer.  He dances with the sword when needed, and brawls when needed.  Whatever it takes to win, is his mentality.  
  Why should it be otherwise?  Even an elven bladesinger - an honorable, noble elven warrior - is going to brawl, if it will add an advantage to her bladesong methology.

  If Lando had been better at brawling (and, perhaps, worse at betraying everyone) they would not have had to have saved his sorry hide from the Sarlaac in Return of the Jedi.

  Captain Kirk was ALWAYS brawling with his foes (LOL)  So were the characters portrayed by John Wayne.  Flash Gordon did a lot of brawling.  In the Matrix, everyone involved had Improved Unarmed Strike (and a lot more than that, obviously.)

  What do you'all think?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

I'm doing a mental comparison of a 5th level wizard with Shocking Grasp versus a 5th level fighter - using 2nd Edition rules - against the same scene in 3rd edition.

  In 2nd Edition, the wizard would simply miss.  A 2nd Edition Wizard had a BAB + 0 at 5th level, while that fighter would have amassed an Armor Class bonus of + 10 or more.  After missing, the Shocking Grasp would fizzle and be lost.
  The fighter wouldn't run:  the figher would stay right there and attack.  BAB + 5, the wizard has little or no Armor Class bonus, and if the fighter hits the wizard cannot get off a spell of any sort, period!  (Translation:  one very dead wizard.)

  In 3rd Edition, the wizard has initiative (which is well for her, since the fighter is right in her face: she took the Improved Initiative Feat!) and strikes with a touch attack against the heavily armed and armored fighter, using Shocking Grasp.  She hits and inflicts 5d6, rolling 18 points of damage.
  18 points doesn't kill the fighter, but it convinces him to run.  (He sees her allies in the distance approaching, or he wants the protection of his allies, or he is a coward, perhaps.)
  The fighter moves his Double Move of 40 feet (20 feet x 2.)

  Next round, the wizard - realizing she cannot reach him with a move of 30 - open fires with Magic Missile on him.  He takes 3d4 + 3 points of damage:  it comes to 10 points of damage.  He now has 28 hit points against him, out of his 42 points (he has a 16 constitution.)

  He's got a problem.  He can charge, and attack once.  If that does not kill her, she'll hit him with Shocking Grasp (or a 2nd level spell that's even better) and kill him.  He can fire arrows at her, if he has his bow out and strung.  He can throw one weapon at her (any number, if he has Quick Draw, but he didn't take that feat.)  But will his arrows or thrown weapons kill her, before she launches another distance strike next round?
  One thing he cannot do is keep running.  He will remain within spell range long enough for her to kill him twice over.


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## ThoughtfulOwl (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> -SNIP - (if she cast it first, before her move, she couldn't attack with it this round.) - SNIP -




Actually she could. If you cast a touch spell and discharge it in the same round, you can take your move between the casting and the touch attack. See the PHB, pp. 140-141 (Touch spells in combat).

It's one of the little tidbits that are easy to miss.


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## Dr Simon (Dec 13, 2005)

You are discovering one of the things that I like about 3rd ed. - that tactics become more than just "I run up and hit him".    

This isn't to everyone's taste and it can, in some hands, become too much like a tactical miniatures game but it needn't be.  With a DM confident of running a smooth melee (like MerricB's example) you can get something like your beloved Tomb of Balin fight!

Oh, and the other difference between 1/2 and 3 - low level wizards are a bit more useful.  "Well folks, that's my one Sleep spell for the day.  Time to be off."


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

If the players would be willing to trust the DM, and not argue with him about where their characters are (even if the DM is incorrect in his assessment of where their characters are) then a big fight like the Balin's Tomb Fight (that's what I'll call it  ) could take place at high speed.
  Would it be totally accurate?  No.  Might it be unfair to the players from time to time?  Yes.  (But then, it would be unfair to the monsters too.)
  But would the characters themselves know exactly where they were, at every moment, during a Balin's Tomb fight?  No.  (humor:    Well, I am, on second 3 of round 6, at 22 feet from the entry, 14 feet from the tomb, 5 feet from the raised walkway, 8 feet from pillar 1, 15 feet from pillar 2, and of course I take the time to look around and confirm all this.  The fact that 5 orcs are attacking me and the room is filled with combatants, a cave troll, and a huge amount of dust ... not to mention the lighting is lousy, makes absolutely no difference!   )

   ThoughtfulOwl, that may be a Tidbit, but it makes a BIG difference!

  Cute Elven Mage (5th level wizard) wins initiative (high Dexterity, Improved Initiative) against the 5th Level Fighter with his full plate armor and large steel shield.
  Cute Elven Mage is Casting on the Defensive.  Makes DC check of 16, readies Shocking Grasp.
  She attempts Touch Attack against Fighter, hits, does 18 points of damage.
  5th level fighter decides to run.  Takes Double Move, moves 40 feet.
  Round ends.

  Mage casts second Shocking Grasp, holds charge.  Mage moves 25 feet after running Fighter.
  Fighter decides running was bad idea, turns around.  Can't take 5 foot step and make Full Attack (mage is 15 feet away), decides to take move action and make one attack.  Does so, hits with axe, does 5 with axe + 4 for strength + 3 for enhancement for 12 points.  Mage survives attack (she had no constitution bonus to hit points, had 14 hit points at start.)
  Mage does not need to make a Concentration Check to Hold a Charge.
  Mage delivers Touch Attack against fighter, hits, does another 18 points of damage with Shocking Grasp.  Fighter has taken 46 points of damage, is at - 4.
  Cute Elven Mage delivers Coup de Grace against downed fighter.

  Ok, the move of 25 feet was a tactical move, suggestion a board game.
  Yet ...
  The elven mage could have appreciated the danger of just running right into the fighter, when he was clearly halting his run and preparing a devastating counterattack.  So, she halted, just out of range, taunting him, holding her Shocking Grasp.  That would be tactical roleplaying, not tactical wargaming.

  What do you think?

  EDIT:  In 2nd Edition, fighter just stands there sneering.  Mage can't possibly hope to hit (needs a natural 20.)  Fighter doesn't even attack, just stands there and laughs.  Remember that fighter gets no penalty to movement for armor class, due to his great strength, in 2E.  So he can run and otherwise move just as adroitly as the elven mage can.  
  Then fighter attacks with weapon in both hands (with high dexterity, almost no penalty at all), and downs mage (who is AC 10, or at absolute best AC 14, because she has no access to Feats that increase Armor Class.)
  For that matter, mage probably doesn't go first.  She has no access to Feats like improved initiative.  If she tries a spell of any sort, fighter just whacks her across the face (1 hit point of damage) and disrupts spell.
  After downing mage, fighter beats on chest, declares himself Mr. Big and Bad, uses heal NPC on mage, takes Cute Elven Mage away as slave.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

Note:  

  My designation of Cute Elven Mage (or, Cute Human Mage) was not meant to be condescending to women.
  It was meant to be condescending to Alpha Fighter types who think the game revolves around them, and all the other characters are extras with bit parts in the play.  
  Most fighter players are not like that.  But we all have sat at that dreadful table where Mr. Big and Bad had to dominate the game.  (I believe El Ravager, from KODT, was based on this kind of player and his fighter characters.)
  Of course, his type would sneer at the likes of Cute Elven Mage.  Until, in 3.5, she proceeds to turn him into Crispy Fried Fighter (after all, such players did not employ tactics.  Their characters just stood there and fought.  Their AC and hit points meant they didn't NEED tactics.  In 3.5, such thinking translates into Crispy Fried Fighter.)


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## kenobi65 (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Just an attempt at solving the Fog of War thing:
> 
> What if a Spot check is required to find out what is happening with your friends, since you have to deliberately attempt to look through the chaos and enemy fighters (orcs, in this case) to find your friend and see what his personal situation is?
> The Spot check is not needed if your friends are 10 feet away and/or if you are not under attack this round.




Conceptually, it's not a bad idea.  In the same way that the battlemat does tend to enable spellcasters to have perfect knowledge of where their spell area of effects will hit, it also enables perfect knowledge of the battlefield for everyone.  I'd have to think about what the DC would be on the Spot, but I like it.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> There is no real way to avoid AOO in a mass battle, IMO.




What are you imagining that's provoking AoOs?  Moving through threatened squares?



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> If I am a warrior, I'm not just going to try to kill the foe with a sword or other weapon.  I'm going to punch, kick, knock dirt up in his face, throw every object at him that is handy, wrestle with him if he closes, try to drown him in the horse trough, and every other dirty tactic I can think of.




Conceptually, I don't disagree with you.  Unfortunately, the D&D rules don't capture that idea well, if at all.  Unless you're a monk, or a monster with an effective natural weapon, using an unarmed attack is simply less effective than pretty much any manufactured weapon.  If it's a trade-off between an attack with my longsword (1d8), my dagger (1d4), or my fist (1d3), the fist comes in last unless I find myself with no other options.  And if you say you want to be punching at the same time as you're whacking with a sword, well, now you're in Two-Weapon Fighting land, and taking (at best) a -2 penalty on your primary attacks to *maybe* do an extra 1d3+Str damage doesn't sound like such a good deal.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> 18 points doesn't kill the fighter, but it convinces him to run.  (He sees her allies in the distance approaching, or he wants the protection of his allies, or he is a coward, perhaps.)




Heh.  Far more likely that the fighter says, "Enough of this!" and whales on the cheeky wizard.  Only a truly stupid or desperate fighter would flee, knowing that he's opening himself up to additional spell attacks from the wizard.

Generally speaking, wizards that live to see another day have learned that about the dumbest thing they can do is get within melee range of a fighter.   Which is why Shocking Grasp doesn't strike me as broken...it forces the wizard to violate that fundamental tenet of arcane-caster survival.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 13, 2005)

Dr Simon said:
			
		

> Oh, and the other difference between 1/2 and 3 - low level wizards are a bit more useful.  "Well folks, that's my one Sleep spell for the day.  Time to be off."




Yup. If *nothing* else, at least now they can use a crossbow.


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## rvalle (Dec 13, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Conceptually, it's not a bad idea.  In the same way that the battlemat does tend to enable spellcasters to have perfect knowledge of where their spell area of effects will hit, it also enables perfect knowledge of the battlefield for everyone.  I'd have to think about what the DC would be on the Spot, but I like it.




I did somethink like this in one of our battles. Bad guy mage's (Longtail from WLD) familure was dropped with a sleep spell while invisible while said mage was in combat. I had him make a spot check (I pulled a dc 15 out of my hat) for him to see what had happened. I figured his link would have helped some too.

rv


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

You are in the Balin's Tomb Fight.
  That orc 15 feet away is snarling at you.  You move 10 feet, then attack.  Your attack kills that orc.
  Then 2 orcs decide to move past you, heading in the opposite direction, towards Boromir.  Due to the Fog of War, they do not deliberately deter around you (because they are not paying attention to you, but to Boromir.)  So they both enter your Threatened Squares, then depart them.  Departing them triggers your AOO.  You may make one AOO against each of them.
  Then you see Boromir is in trouble with the cave troll.  You charge the cave troll, to stop it from squashing Boromir.  But in so doing, you pass by the 2 orcs who are also engaged with Boromir.  You enter and then leave their Threatened Squares.  Both of those orcs get AOO against you.

  Now the cave troll is paying attention to you.  It bull rushes you, pushing you back 20 feet, past the 2 orcs, and the 3 more rushing up.  The 3 orcs don't get AOO, since you are only entering their Threatened Squares, but the 2 orcs gleefully strike at you again as you leave their Threatened Squares.  Then they move up to attack you.

  Meanwhile, Sam is banging away with his pans (BANG!  I think I've got the hang of this!  BANG!)
  Sam bangs one orc, downing him.  He turns and moves, and bangs another orc next round.  But there were 2 other orcs with the orc he first banged.  Sam just left their Threatened Squares, so they both get AOO against him. 
  And unfortunately for Sam, he also just left the Threat Range of the Cave Troll (who was concentrating on Aragorn.)  So it gets an AOO also.
  The new orc Sam just banged goes down.  But the second orc had a spear, which threatens out to 10 feet, and Sam is 10 feet out.  That orc gets an AOO.
  Master Samwise didn't get the 'hang' of it very well at all, did he?  

  (Incidentally, the pan counts as a, what, light weapon?  Sam has a - 4 to hit with it, being non-proficient.  If he hits, he does 1d2 points with it (improvised Small Weapon, correct?) plus strength (in Sam's case, + 2 or + 3.  Sam is pretty strong.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

Or how about this:

  You backpedal (or sidepedal), and blunder right into an orc you did not notice, due to the Fog of War.  He was backpedalling (or sidepedalling), and blunders into you.
  Both of you realize you have bigger and better foes to face (he wants to fight Gimli, you want to fight that orc with the spear) than each other, so both of you move away from each other at once.
  Both of you immediately get AOO against the other, as you leave each other's Threatened Squares.

  You move around the corner, backing away from the 3 orcs blitzing away at you (you're killing them fast:  there were 7 orcs blitzing at you last round.)  But around the corner are 2 more orcs, busy fighting Merry.
  Merry and his combat moves past you into another part of the room, while your combat continues to backpedal towards where Legolas is shooting orcs down.
  But, as this happens:

  You get AOO against all of Merry's orcs.
  Merry gets AOO against all of your orcs.
  Merry's orcs all get AOO against you.
  All of your orcs get AOO against Merry.

  ALL of you (You, Merry, your orcs, Merry's orcs) are too busy fighting, to pay attention to whether you are safely 6 feet away from an enemy combatant!  Yes, all of you see Big Nasties with Big Nasty Weapons threatening nearby, but staying safely away from them, while you are engaged in mortal combat with foes in your face, is another matter!

  The Fog of War is as messy, as that room was after the fight ended.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> So they both enter your Threatened Squares, then depart them.  Departing them triggers your AOO.  You may make one AOO against each of them.




If you've got them newfangled Combat Reflexes.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Both of you immediately get AOO against the other, as you leave each other's Threatened Squares.




Only one of you would get an AoO, your movement occurs on your action, his movement on his.



> _You move around the corner, backing away from the 3 orcs blitzing away at you (you're killing them fast:  there were 7 orcs blitzing at you last round.)  But around the corner are 2 more orcs, busy fighting Merry.
> Merry and his combat moves past you into another part of the room, while your combat continues to backpedal towards where Legolas is shooting orcs down.
> But, as this happens:
> 
> ...





You do not normally get more than one AoO per round, unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat. I'm not sure what "blitzing" is, combatants don't normally drift about the battlefield in the manner you describe, at least not in 3.0/3.5e combat. Each character moves on his or her own action, and not as a group. Further, what you describe would most likely be modeled as a series of five foot steps on the part of the various combatants, and a five foot step never draws an AoO.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena, I think it comes down to this: you need to actually sit down and *play*.   Or, at least, get someone to actually do some combats with you.  At this point, all of these rules are just book l'arnin' to you, and you really need to see how it all translates to actual play.


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## The_Gneech (Dec 13, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Heh.  Far more likely that the fighter says, "Enough of this!" and whales on the cheeky wizard.  Only a truly stupid or desperate fighter would flee, knowing that he's opening himself up to additional spell attacks from the wizard.
> 
> Generally speaking, wizards that live to see another day have learned that about the dumbest thing they can do is get within melee range of a fighter.   Which is why Shocking Grasp doesn't strike me as broken...it forces the wizard to violate that fundamental tenet of arcane-caster survival.




That was exactly what I was thinking. Try this:

_Cute Elven Mage (5th level wizard) wins initiative (high Dexterity, Improved Initiative) against the 5th Level Fighter with his full plate armor and large steel shield.
Cute Elven Mage is Casting on the Defensive. Makes DC check of 16, readies Shocking Grasp.
She attempts Touch Attack against Fighter, hits, does 18 points of damage.
5th level fighter decides to run. Takes Double Move, moves 40 feet.
5th level fighter whacks Cute Elven Mage with axe, doing 12 points of damage. Mage has 1 hp left.
Round ends.

Mage casts second Shocking Grasp, holds charge. Mage has 1 hit point. Does she really want to risk that her next spell will drop the fighter before he can get one more attack?_

A melee fighter doesn't generally run away, no matter how much of a pounding they're taking, because to do so is just to invite more free attacks on themselves. They're better off to keep attacking in the hopes of winning outright.

-The Gneech


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## rvalle (Dec 13, 2005)

The_Gneech said:
			
		

> Mage casts second Shocking Grasp, holds charge. Mage has 1 hit point. Does she really want to attempt a Concentration check of DC (10 + damage taken =) 22 to cast another spell? Assuming Concentration +15, she has a 65% chance of success there -- ignoring as a given that she must make another Concentration check of "don't roll a 1" to cast defensively. Or would she rather withdraw as a full-round action to get away from that axe?[/i]
> 
> -The Gneech




Ummm... does it work that way? I thought a con check was only needed for damage taken WHILE casting. Either from something that does damage over time (acid/fire), a readied attack or a spell that takes a full round to cast.

rv


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## Storm Raven (Dec 13, 2005)

rvalle said:
			
		

> Ummm... does it work that way? I thought a con check was only needed for damage taken WHILE casting. Either from something that does damage over time (acid/fire), a readied attack or a spell that takes a full round to cast.




I believe he is assuming that the CEM will cast her second _shocking grasp_ spell using the 'Cast Defensively' option, so as to avoid drawing an AoO from the fighter for casting while in a threatened area.


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## The_Gneech (Dec 13, 2005)

rvalle said:
			
		

> Ummm... does it work that way? I thought a con check was only needed for damage taken WHILE casting. Either from something that does damage over time (acid/fire), a readied attack or a spell that takes a full round to cast.
> 
> rv




You are correct. I have this recurring problem of applying house rules to board posts. Sorry! Presumably the RAW mainly come into play if the wizard is hit by an AoO or taking continuous damage while casting their spell, but since most of the wizards in games we play have Concentration maxed out, they always cast defensively anyway. We applied the "when you take damage, period" rule in our game because it seemed weird for wizards to be sucking up damage and still standing there casting spells right and left.

-The Gneech


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## The_Gneech (Dec 13, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I believe he is assuming that the CEM will cast her second _shocking grasp_ spell using the 'Cast Defensively' option, so as to avoid drawing an AoO from the fighter for casting while in a threatened area.




That was the "don't roll a 1" check I was referring to, because the Mage as postulated almost can't miss their check for casting defensively.

Sorry for the confusion.

-The Gneech


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## DethStryke (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> ThoughtfulOwl, that may be a Tidbit, but it makes a BIG difference!
> 
> Cute Elven Mage (5th level wizard) wins initiative (high Dexterity, Improved Initiative) against the 5th Level Fighter with his full plate armor and large steel shield.
> Cute Elven Mage is Casting on the Defensive.  Makes DC check of 16, readies Shocking Grasp.
> ...




While feats are not the main component of the system, for some classes, especially Fighters,  they are very important. IMO, they are integral to fighters. In the example you list above, a 5th level fighter has a high probability of having Power Attack. Had he used even 2 of his (5 at that level) available Base Attack Bonus, his last strike would have downed the mage. Many of the people I've played with will take full Power Attacks if they do it at all, which would have laid the mage into the negatives. That's not even considering the offset that Weapon Focus (+1 to hit) and a Masterwork weapon (+1 to hit) gives to balance the power attack (+2 to hit for the -2 of the min power attack needed). Weapon Specialization (+2 dmg) is another option to get the extra two damage instead of power attack. So would be dropping his shield as he advanced and using two hands to increase his strength output 1.5x from +4 to +6.

Also consider that the fighter's attack, as shown, forces the mage to make a Fortitude check for excessive damage ( >50% of her HP) or go unconcious. Though I believe this is an optional rule, if I remember correctly. It is one that is "standard" at the tables I play in though, which is why I can't remember what the book says. 

By using the Heal skill in combat, you can assess the relative damage that another PC/NPC has sustained. So at any time the fighter could have checked to see how damaged or in shape (indicating a constitution bonus) the Cute Elven Mage was. This may have a bearing on whether he chose to use Power Attack at all.

The hardest part is remembering what all the skills and feats that you have do and how to stack them to achieve the greatest benefit to every situation.

The Mage, on the other hand, has a huge advantage in ranged options. Keeping things in between to defense against the charge is a key strategy against melee opponents, but in this case one could employ a familiar with the "Deliver Touch Spells" ability to great effect. Perhaps a Weasel that sneaks up on the fighter, or a mouse even! This would allow the mage herself to keep a great distance and still tag anyone with a shocking grasp. In an open field, a owl or falcon with a MUCH greater flight speed could swoop down and still have plenty of chances to smack a touch spell on the hapless fighter.

_Edit: Afterthoughts and clear up notes. _


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

(smiles ruefully)  I can't sit down and play right now.  Still searching for a group.  Thus, this thread.

  Let me try the above again 

  You are Aragorn.  You have Combat Reflexes.
  Merry does not have Combat Reflexes.
  You are in a fight with 7 orcs.  Merry is in a fight with 3 orcs.
  None of the orcs have Combat Reflexes, but none of them have yet made an AOO this round.
  Initiative:  you go, then the orcs go, then Merry goes.

  You Full Attack your orcs, killing 2 of them.  You step your 5 foot step backwards, towards Merry's fight.
  The orcs attack.  They all miss you.  They also miss Merry.  Your orcs move with you.  Merry's orcs do not move.
  Merry attacks.  He has only 1 attack.  But he hits, and downs one of his 3 orcs.  Merry then foolishly backpedals (he is allowed a move action) 20 feet, right into your combat.
  Merry's orcs have taken their action, and cannot move with Merry this round.  But they CAN take their AOO against Merry, and they do.  Fortunately for Merry, they miss.

  Now, your combat and Merry's combat are entwined in one large messy melee.
  Next round.

  You take another 5 foot step backwards, yelling at Merry to hold his ground (Merry doesn't listen to you, though.  Merry is scared of all these orcs attacking him.)
  You make another Full Round Attack against your 5 remaining orcs.  You kill 3 of them.

  It is the orc's turn.  They attack you and hit.  You take 15 points of damage (minor cuts and bruises.) 
  They orcs on Merry move 20 feet, reach Merry, and attack him.  They miss.
  The orcs on you take a 5 foot step to keep with you.

  Merry was thinking of attacking one of your orcs.  Since the 2 that were on him came up to attack, he attacks them instead.  He hits and kills one.
  Then Merry, who is frightened, foolishly backpedals another 20 feet.
  The remaining 2 orcs on you have not yet taken their AOO.  Merry just left their threatened area, so they both make AOO on Merry.  And Merry's remaining orc, also gets an AOO on Merry, and takes it.  Merry is hit twice, and badly hurt.

  You decide you have to save Merry.  The one remaining orc on Merry is about to kill him.
  You take your move action to move up to that orc (who has not yet had a chance to move and thus pursue Merry.)
  Immediately, the surviving two orcs on you gleefully take their AOO on you, one of them hitting (more bruises for you, with your high hit points.)
  Then you attack that orc, and kill him.  Merry is saved (hopefully.)

  It is the orc's turn.  Another 2 orcs rush up on Merry from the opposite direction and attack (both miss, fortunately.)
  The two orcs you left behind move up to you and attack.  They miss.

  The combat goes on ...

  -

  Sam is facing 3 orcs on one side, and 3 orcs on the other side.  They are flanking him.
  Sam, bangs one of the 3 on one side, killing him. (BANG!)
  Sam, moves out from between the orcs, trying to escape this trap.  He maneuvers to put himself in front of the second group of 3 orcs.
  But in so doing, he moves out of the threatened squares of the remaining 2 orcs of the first group.  Both make AOO.  Both hit.  Sam takes a gash across the forehead.

  The orcs now have initiative.  The two in the first group decide to attack Pippin.  They move, then attack Pippin (missing.)
  But the 3 orcs of the second group now attack Sam.  All of them miss.

  Sam:  I think I have the hang of this!

  Sam now attacks one of the three orcs of the second group.  He hits, and downs one of them.  (BANG!)
  Then Sam does a reactive Spot check to find Frodo.  This takes no time, but Frodo is not within 20 feet.  Sam cannot find Frodo.  (House Rule for Fog of Battle.  It could be 25 feet, 30 feet, or whatever the DM wants.)
  So Sam takes a move action Spot Check to find Frodo, DC 10.  He sees him over there, 40 feet away, gutting an orc with Sting.  Sam is much relieved. (House Rule for Fog of Battle.  It could be DC 0, 5, 15, or whatever the DM wants.)

  The two orcs on Sam now have initiative.  One runs off, going after Frodo.
  Sam gets an AOO against that one.  He misses.  (The orc moves, attacks Frodo, and his blow misses, glancing off of Frodo's mithril shirt.)
  The remaining orc attacks Sam.  It misses.

  Sam charges the orc on Frodo. (Frodo, on his initiative, missed it.)
  The remaining orc on Sam gets an AOO on Sam.  It takes it, but misses.
  Sam moves, attacks, and misses.

  Now, the orc on Frodo continues attacking Frodo.  It misses.
  The orc that was on Sam charges Sam, attacks, and misses.
  Two more orcs charge Sam and Frodo.  One attacks Sam, one attacks Frodo.  Both miss.

  It is Legolas' initiative.  He does a move action Spot Check of 10, locates the precise location of Frodo and Sam, and the precise location of the 4 orcs on them.  He fires his bow, killing one of the 4 orcs.  (House Rule for Fog of Battle, for Spot Check.)

  The combat goes on ...


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## kenobi65 (Dec 13, 2005)

DethStryke said:
			
		

> Also consider that the fighter's attack, as shown, forces the mage to make a Fortitude check for excessive damage ( >50% of her HP) or go unconcious. Though I believe this is an optional rule, if I remember correctly. It is one that is "standard" at the tables I play in though, which is why I can't remember what the book says.




Sounds like a house rule to me.  The only such "core" rule that I'm aware of is the massive damage rule, which makes you make a Fort save if you take (IIRC) 50 or more HP of damage from a single attack.

Under your rule, low-level wizards would be making that roll every time they got hit...which might be the idea, I suppose.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (smiles ruefully)  I can't sit down and play right now.  Still searching for a group.  Thus, this thread.




Alas.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Let me try the above again




I think you've got the general idea, though if the combat were actually laid out on a grid, not every combatant might always be getting an AoO -- it all depends on where each figure is at the time.

And, in the game, unless Merry were under some actual fear effect, he wouldn't be forced to move (and thus suffer the AoOs).  There's no rule on being generally foolish, though I could see some players deciding to roleplay their PCs that way...


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## rvalle (Dec 13, 2005)

The_Gneech said:
			
		

> You are correct. I have this recurring problem of applying house rules to board posts. Sorry! Presumably the RAW mainly come into play if the wizard is hit by an AoO or taking continuous damage while casting their spell, but since most of the wizards in games we play have Concentration maxed out, they always cast defensively anyway. We applied the "when you take damage, period" rule in our game because it seemed weird for wizards to be sucking up damage and still standing there casting spells right and left.
> 
> -The Gneech




Ahhh... no problems. I just wanted to make sure I had the rule right. I'm kind of in Edena's boat but I'm running a game as well. I also didn't want Edena to get confused by someone's house rules.  

Actually your house rule sounds good. This is one of the places where dnd's 'everything happens at the same time' and 'each player goes in sequence' just doesn't mesh well.

rv


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

I will create the characters in question:

  Claire (aka Cute Elven Mage)

  Character Level 5, Wizard 5th
  Medium sized humanoid (Elf) (subrace high elf)
  Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 13
  Neutral Good, reveres Sehanine Moonbow
  Hit Points:  24
  Base AC 10, Modifiers:  Dex + 3  (Modified AC 13)
  Base Saves + 1 Fort, + 1 Ref, + 4 Will:  Modifiers:  + 2 Fort (Con), + 3 Ref (Dex) (Modified Saves: + 3 Fort, + 4 Ref, + 4 Will)
  Move:  30 feet
  BAB + 2
  Initiative modifier:  + 4 (Dex), + 4 (Improved Initiative), (Modified Initiative:  + 8)
  Spell DC modifier:  + 3 (Int)
  Spells 4 (0 level), 4, 3, 2
  Spells readied:  Light, Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Mage Armor, Shocking Grasp, Shocking Grasp, Magic Missile, Protection from Arrows, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Hold Person
  Feats:  Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell
  Skills:  Concentration 8 ranks (+ 3 Skill Focus, + 2 Constitution), Knowledge Arcana 4 ranks (+ 3 Intelligence), Listen (+ 2 racial), Search 3 ranks (6 points spent) (+ 3 Intelligence, + 2 racial), Spellcraft 8 ranks, Spot 3 ranks (6 points spent) (+ 2 racial)

  Weapons:  Long Sword (1 - 8, Crit 19-20/x2, 4#, slashing), Daggers (2) (1 - 4, Crit 19-20/x2, Range Increment 10 feet, 1#, piercing/slashing, Long Bow (1 - 6, 20/x3, Range Increment 100 feet, 3#, piercing.)
  Attack Bonuses:  Long Sword (none, and - 4 non-proficiency penalty), Daggers (+ 3 Dexterity if thrown), Light Crossbow (+ 3 Dexterity)

  Other:  120 years of age, 4 feet 6 inches tall, 80 pounds, long raven black hair (let down), blue eyes, milky skin.

  Damage Bonuses:  None

  Racial Abilities:   + 2 Dexterity, - 2 Constitution, base speed 30 feet, immunity to magic sleep effects, + 2 saves against enchantment spells and effects, Low Light Vision, Martial Weapon Proficiency for the long sword, rapier, long bow, composite long bow, short bow, and composite short bow, + 2 bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot checks, secret door detection, learned languages of Common, Elven, Draconian, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan, Favored Class Wizard.

  -

  Narrin

  Character Level 5, Fighter 5th
  Medium sized (human)
  Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10
  Neutral, reveres Tempus
  Hit Points:  42
  Base AC 10, Modifiers:  Armor + 8, Shield + 2, Dex + 1 (Modified AC 21)
  Armor Check Penalty:  - 8
  Base Saves + 4 Fort, + 1 Ref, + 1 Will:  Modifiers:  + 2 Fort (Con), + 2 Ref (Dex) (Modified Saves: + 3 Fort, + 3 Ref, + 1 Will)
  BAB + 5 (+ 4 Strength), (+ 1 Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick)
  Initiative modifier:  + 2 (Dex)
  Feats:  Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick), Weapon Specialization (Heavy Pick), Two Weapon Proficiency, Point Blank Shot + Armor Proficiency Light, Armor Proficiency Medium, Armor Proficiency Heavy, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Note that Narrin intends to take Rapid Shot at 6th level, Improved Two Weapon Fighting at 8th level, and Improved Critical at 9th level)
  Skills:  Climb 4 ranks (Str + 4), Jump 4 ranks (Str + 4), Swim 8 ranks (Str + 4), Spot 4 ranks (8 points spent) 

  Weapons:  Heavy Pick (1 - 6, Crit 20/x4, 6#, piercing), Long Sword (1 - 8, Crit 19-20/x2, 4#, slashing), Light Pick (1 - 4, Crit 20/x4, 3#, piercing), Throwing Axe (1 - 6, Crit 20/x2, Range Increment 10 feet, 2#, slashing), Heavy Composite Bow modified for 18 Strength (1 - 8, 20/x3, Range Increment 110 feet, 3 #, piercing), quiver and 20 arrows, Unarmed 1d3

  Attack Bonuses:  Heavy Pick (+ 4 Strength, + 2 Weapon Specialization), Long Sword (+ 4 Strength), Light Pick (+ 4 Strength), Throwing Axe (+ 4 Strength or + 2 Dexterity), Heavy Composite Bow (+ 2 Dexterity, + 1 Point Blank Shot), Unarmed (+ 4 Strength)

  Damage Bonuses:  Heavy Pick (+ 4 Strength, + 1 Weapon Focus), Long Sword (+ 4 Strength or + 2 if used off-hand), Light Pick (+ 4 Strength), Throwing Axe (+ 4 Strength), Arrows (+ 4 Strength), Unarmed (+ 4 Strength)

  Now, these two should be ready to fight, IF I have correctly created them (not including mundane equipment.)


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## The_Gneech (Dec 13, 2005)

They need hit points.  If you assume "average" rolls, that would be 22 for Claire and 42 for Narrin.

-TG


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

LOL.  Nothing like missing the forest for the trees.

  Claire adds 1 to her Intelligence at 4th level.
  Narrin adds 1 to his Strength at 4th level.

  EDIT:  Modified again as of now.  Neither of them has any magical or masterwork items.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 13, 2005)

Claire is actually a Medium Humanoid (Elf).  Additionally, since she's an elf, she's proficient in the longsword.  Additionally, you could give her a longbow or a shortbow and she could use them proficiently (and skip the long reloading time of the crossbow).

Her initiative modifier is also off by one; she's got a +3 Dex bonus, not +4.

She's also got the Scribe Scroll item creation feat for free (all wizards start with it).

EDIT:

Spot is also a cross-class skill for wizards.  At level 5, she can only have 4 ranks in it.


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## William Ronald (Dec 13, 2005)

Hi, Edena.  

I would also suggest that the characters would have some idea that a fight might be coming.  In the case of Claire, she may well have already cast Mage Armor which lasts 1 hour per level.  Most arcane casters that I have seen use the spell at low to mid-levels.  The spell will give here a +4 Armor Class bonus, increasing here AC to 17.

Another good spell for arcane casters is  the 2nd level spell False Life, which lasts up to 1 hour/level and can give 1d10 +1 hp/level (maximum +10 hp at 10th level) of temporary hit points. So, this spell could give the caster an average of 10 temporary hit points.

Also, you will have to decide how close the characters are to each other when they see each other.  (Spot checks can help.)  Much of this combat will depend on the distance of the characters.

It might be worthwhile to see if someone in your area is running a demo.  Maybe some of the people on the boards in your area might be interested ina Southwest Florida EN World Gameday.  Or if there is someone in your area on the boards who is willing to run a one shot game to help you try the rules.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

Ok, I made the changes.  Note that Claire is a generic high elf of the old mold, standing 4 1/2 feet tall, and weighing in at 80 pounds.  She is as young as an elven wizard can be.  She is not a moon elf (one of the high elves of Toril) and is visiting from another world.

  Narrin is a native of the land of Damara, wearing the ornate plate armor of the ancient and mighty Empire of Damara.  He dreams of restoring that empire, but right now is reduced to brigandry.
  A very loyal young lad serves as his squire, helping him don his plate armor.  He is dedicated to restoring the ancient empire as well.

  Claire is in Damara, looking for it's lost treasures.  Unfortunately, she is alone now:  bad things happened to her companions, and they are currently elsewhere.

  And so ...


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

An exhausted Claire has stopped in a clearing in the pine forests of Damara to rest briefly.  The land is perilous, she is alone, and she is on her guard.  It is midday.  She is trying to find the home of a healer said to live around here, so that healer can save her companions.
  Several thousand feet away, is the hidden home of Narrin.  Narrin waylays treasure-hunters (and others) who come seeking the lost fortunes of Damara, taking all their items if they do not resist, and killing them if they do.  He sells the items through a network of allies dedicated to restoring Damara, hoping to eventually build a fortress and an army.  (The healer and Narrin are foes, incidentally.)

  Narrin scans the road, the fields, the scattered woodlands from his hidden observatory on a hillock 100 feet high.  He peers through the pinewoods, the birch trees, the clearings, the occasional meadow, all around, looking for signs of movement.
  Narrin looks up and down the distant road, one of the ancient roads of Damara.  Nothing is moving on that road.  Adventurers avoid it, knowing dangers await the unwary.  The native people avoid it, considering it cursed.  Narrin expects to find nothing there, but he has oftentimes seen or heard treasure-hunters trying to sneak (or march) through the woodlands.

  Just what kind of Search check does Narrin need, to become aware of Claire, resting in the glade about 3,000 feet away?
  Narrin takes 20 for the attempt, remember.  He searches long and hard for clues of folk moving about.

  What number does he need?

  Claire is exhausted, but she is not so exhausted she does not Search the surrounding woodlands for signs of danger.
  She sees the hillock in the distance, obviously.  But Narrin has carefully concealed himself in the trees, behind an artificial cover he and his squire built and nurtured.  And he is actively trying to not be seen.

  Claire has taken 20 also.  What roll does she need, to see Narrin hiding up in the brush, atop that hillock?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

I'm guessing that Narrin needs a DC 15 check, and Claire needs a 30 DC check.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Just what kind of Search check does Narrin need, to become aware of Claire, resting in the glade about 3,000 feet away?
> Narrin takes 20 for the attempt, remember.  He searches long and hard for clues of folk moving about.




These would be Spot checks. Spot is used to see things on a "marco" level. Search would be used to hunt for secret doors, look for traps, and the like.



> _What number does he need?_





3,000 feet away? I would normally say that to see someone who is not hiding would be a Spot DC of 0 as a base, but there is a -1 modifier per 10 feet of distance. At 3,000 feet, that would be a DC 300 Spot check.



> _Claire is exhausted, but she is not so exhausted she does not Search the surrounding woodlands for signs of danger._





Spot again. Not Search.



> _She sees the hillock in the distance, obviously.  But Narrin has carefully concealed himself in the trees, behind an artificial cover he and his squire built and nurtured.  And he is actively trying to not be seen.
> 
> Claire has taken 20 also.  What roll does she need, to see Narrin hiding up in the brush, atop that hillock?_





DC 300 + the result of Narrin's Hide check.

As a side note, you do not roll if you Take 20. The use of Take 20 replaces a roll by giving you a result of a 20. It can only be done with skill checks for which there is no penalty for failure, and takes 20 times as long as a normal skill check.


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## The_Gneech (Dec 13, 2005)

This is going to be the coolest romantic comedy ever!

-The Gneech


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

Ok, something's wrong here.
  Most people can look down the road, and see something human sized (especially if it is moving) 3,000 feet away.  It won't be large, but they'll see it.
  So it's not DC 300, for the Spot Check.  In the case above, it'd be DC 5 (unless the viewer was nearsighted, as Yours Truly once was, obviously.)

  So, anyone?  Narrin is trying to Spot Claire.  Claire is just generally looking for anything dangerous (but the only dangerous thing is Narrin, hiding up in the trees on that hillock, more than 100 feet up, 3,000 feet away.  There is a direct line of sight between them, by a trick of the foliage of the forest.  Claire looks at the hillock longer, since it is obvious to her a danger is more likely to be there.)

  What would they need for their Spot rolls?

  Storm Raven, thanks for the correction.
  Gneech, LOL


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 13, 2005)

It wouldn't be a Search check; it'd be a Spot check.

Moreover, it would be a Spot check opposed by the other person's Hide check and distance (and other) modifiers; so, the answer to, "How hard is it to see Narin?" is "What's the result of Nerin's Hide check?"


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Ok, something's wrong here.
> Most people can look down the road, and see something human sized (especially if it is moving) 3,000 feet away.  It won't be large, but they'll see it.




It also won't be Hiding.  You won't be able to see that person if they're crouching in some bushes - even if they aren't particularly good at it.


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## monboesen (Dec 13, 2005)

> Now, these two should be ready to fight, IF I have correctly created them (not including mundane equipment.)




Yeah, however...

I don't know how you generated those ability scores, but the core standard array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

So it's more likely that they will look something like this. 

*Note I had to change the fighter a bit as he could no longer take two-weapon fighting. You also need to realise that though it may look cool two-weapon fighting is no longer a good option for most fighters (costs a lot of feats and you still end up doing less damage). Only characters with special bonus damage (like rangers vs. favored enemies and rogues with sneak attack) benefits from two-weapon fighting. For a standard Dude fighter, the greatsword is the way to go.

Claire
Elf mage chick(Wizard 5)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Hit Dice: 5d4+5 (19 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: Move 30' (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 Mage armor), 12 touch, 10 flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+1
Attack: Longsword +1 (1d8-1 19-20*2) or longbow +4 (1d8 20*3)
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Elf traits, Lowlight vision
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 13
Skills: Concentration +13 (8 ranks), Knowledge Arcana +7 (4 ranks), Listen + 2, Search +8 (3 ranks), Spellcraft +11 (8 ranks), Spot +5 (3 ranks) 
Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell, Scribe scroll.
Alignment: Neutral Good

120 years of age, 4 feet 6 inches tall, 80 pounds, long raven black hair (let down), blue eyes, milky skin.

Spell DC modifier: 13 + spell level 
Spells per day: 0/4, 1/4, 2/3, 3/2
Spells readied: 
0/Light (cast), Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead
1/Mage Armor (cast), Shocking Grasp*2, Magic Missile 
2/Protection from Arrows (cast), Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
3/Fireball, Hold Person.


Narrin
Human male (Fighter 5)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (42 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Move 20' (4 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +8 Armor), 11 touch, 18 flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+8
Attack: Greatsword +9 (2d6+6 19-20*2) or longbow +4 (1d8 20*3)
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
Special Attacks: Spells
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Skills: Climb 4 ranks (Str + 4), Jump 4 ranks (Str + 4), Swim 8 ranks (Str + 4), Spot 4 ranks (8 points spent)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Point blank shot, Point Blank Shot
Alignment: Neutral 

If they where to fight each other the mage would be smart to start of with her Hold person spell. Followed up by a Coup de grace with her Shocking grasp.

The fighter has to make a DC 16 will save (he has a +1 modifier) to avoid being held. He has a 30 % chance of making it. Mage starts her Coup de Grace on her next action. Then he makes another one at the end of the next turn, again a 30 % chance of making it. If he misses both its automatic critical for 10d6 damage (average of 35) and a Fortitude DC 45 save to survive on the mages third turn.

Should they end up in close combat the fighter hits with 70 % of his attacks for an average of 14,3 damage. That's an average of 10 hp per round (a bit more with some clever power attacking). So the mage will be lucky to survive more than 2 rounds of melee.

The lesson you should take from this is. 

1. a mage should avoid melee at all costs
2. at this level a mage will be hard pressed to kill a fighter through damaging spells (at least before the fighter has cloven her in two). She needs to hinder his actions.
3. a mage should use spells that target reflex and will saves against fighters.

Some spells that might help the mage win.

1. Ray of enfeeblement (easy hit, no save, 1d6+2 str penalty), Shield (+4 more AC), Expeditious retreat (+30 ft. movement to keep distance).
2. Glitterdust (will save or blindness, that's a winner), Hideous laughter (will save or no actions for 5 rounds, that's 4 rounds of free spellcasting), Shatter (bye, bye Greatsword), Mirror image (missed me, missed me, missed me again), Levitate (now at missile range with protection from arrows, that's a win, win situation).
3. Fly (as levitate, but better), Slow (will save, combined with Expeditious retreat this makes you able to run circles around the fighter without him being able to close in for melee).


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## Michael Silverbane (Dec 13, 2005)

Somewhere in the DMG...  there's a... thing... for encounter distance and making spot checks.  In general, the encounter distance is pretty short in a forested area (I wanna day its around 30 or 40 feet).  The DC for the Spot chek is 20 At The Encounter Distance.  In this case you (The DM) have overruled the 'normal' forest encounter distance by 'some trick of the foliage'...  Which is fine...  It simply makes the encounter distance equal to 3,000 feet.

So...  The Spot DC would be 20, if neither of them are hiding.  The fact that Narrin is hiding alters things somewhat.

The Spot check DC for Narrin to see Claire is still 20, but Narrin takes a -5 penalty on his Spot check because he is hiding (It's harder to see when you are tyring not to be seen yourself).

The Spot check DC for Claire to see Narrin is 20 plus Narrin's Hide check result.

Later
silver


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

LOL.  Neither of them see the other.  Encounter over!  

  I'll go by the template you've given, monboesen.  Thanks for the template.  I'll use it on all further character builds.
  But I'm sticking to the ability scores as I created them, because I'm not using Standard Builds of 28 or 32 points in this case.  I'm assuming the old 4d6 roll, drop the lowest dice, method (which is in the 3.5 PHB, so it's still a standard rule.)  I'm assuming both of these characters got lucky with their dice rolls, and incredibly (a Ripley's Believe It or Not) rolled just about the same stats.  Of course, they put their numbers in different stats, being different classes and races.

  So ...

  Claire
  Cute Elven Mage (Wizard 5)

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  Medium Humanoid (Elf)
  Hit Dice: 5d4 + 10 (24 hp)
  Initiative: + 7
  Speed: Move 30 feet (6 squares)
  Armor Class: 13 (+ 3 Dex), 13 touch, 10 flat-footed
  Base Attack/Grapple: + 2 / + 2
  Attack: Longsword + 2 (1d8 19-20*2), longbow + 5 (1d8 20*3, 100 ft), dagger + 2 (1 - 4, 19-20*2, 10 ft)
  Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
  Special Attacks: Spells
  Special Qualities: Elf traits, Lowlight vision
  Saves: Fort + 3, Ref + 4, Will + 4
  Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 13
  Skills: Concentration + 13 (8 ranks), Knowledge Arcana + 7 (4 ranks), Listen + 2, Search + 8 (3 ranks), Spellcraft + 11 (8 ranks), Spot + 5 (3 ranks)
  Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell.
  Alignment: Neutral Good
  Diety:  Reveres Sehanine Moonbow, other Seldarine deities

  120 years of age, 4 feet 6 inches tall, 80 pounds, long raven black hair (let down), blue eyes, milky skin.
  Languages:  Common, Elven, Draconian, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan

  Spell DC modifier: 13 + spell level
  Spells per day: 0/4, 1/4, 2/3, 3/2
  Spells readied:
  0/Light, Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead
  1/Mage Armor, Shocking Grasp*2, Magic Missile
  2/Protection from Arrows, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
  3/Fireball, Hold Person.


  Narrin
  Human male (Fighter 5)

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  Medium Humanoid (Human)
  Hit Dice: 5d10 + 10 (42 hp)
  Initiative: + 1
  Speed: Move 20 feet (4 squares)
  Armor Class: 22 (+ 2 Dex, + 8 Armor, + 2 Shield), 12 touch, 20 flat-footed
  Base Attack/Grapple: + 5 / + 9
  Attack: Heavy pick + 11 (1d6 + 5 20*4), long sword + 9 (1 - 8 + 4, 19-20*2), light pick + 9 (1 - 4, 20*4), throwing axe (1 - 6 + 4, 20*2, 10 ft), or heavy composite bow + 9 (1 - 8 + 4, 19-20*2, 110 feet) 
  Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
  Special Attacks: None
  Saves: Fort + 6, Ref + 3, Will + 1
  Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10.

  Skills: Climb 4 ranks (Str + 4), Jump 4 ranks (Str + 4), Swim 8 ranks (Str + 4), Spot 4 ranks (8 points spent)
  Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick), Weapon Specialization (Heavy pick), Two Weapon Proficiency, Point Blank Shot
  Alignment: Neutral
  Diety:  Reveres Tempus, Helm, some others

  EDIT:  Done.  (I hope)


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## Michael Silverbane (Dec 13, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> LOL.  Neither of them see the other.  Encounter over!




That can and does occassionally happen.  Usually, when neither party becomes aware of the other, the DM can continue calling for (or making, since Spot is one of those skills whose checks are often made in secret) Spot checks, possibly reducing the check DC as the two parties draw closer to one another.  In the case that you've posited above, the two characters are quite likely to miss one another, but that sort of thing is where circumstancial modifiers come in...

Since you've indicated that Narrin is local to the area, and often scouts it out in this way in order to waylay passersby for their goodies, you might give him a circumstance bonus to his Spot check (usually equal to +2) since he knows that travellers will usually pass through and/or stop to rest in that clearing.

You could, concievably, give a similar bonus to Claire, since you indicated that she was suspicious of the hillock, which just happens to be where Narrin is hiding.  Of course, a +2 bonus for her Spot check will likely not be as useful, since Narrin is hidden.

Later
silver


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

I wanted to give my gratitude to you,  monboesen, for showing me the proper template (a *crucial* way to remember everything you should about your character, is to have a proper template, IMHO ... and I didn't have one, and wasn't figuring out how to write it out.)
  I wanted to thank you for that post.  You put a lot of effort into it.  Thanks for the spell advice!  I see I did not pick Claire's spells correctly, despite trying.
  I hope Claire and Narrin are correct, using your template.  I modified them back to the original (using the 4d6 concept, not using Point Buy.)  I just hope everything adds up.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 13, 2005)

Finalized Claire and Narrin (I hope?  Correct?  (sighs))

  Claire
  Cute Elven Mage (Wizard 5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Hit Dice: 5d4+10 (24 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: Move 30 feet (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+3 Dex), 13 touch, 10 flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+2
Attack: Longsword +2 (1d8 19-20*2), longbow +5 (1d8 20*3, 100 ft), dagger +2 (1-4 19-20*2, 10 ft)
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Elf traits, Lowlight vision
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 13
Skills: Concentration +13 (8 ranks), Knowledge Arcana +7 (4 ranks), Listen +2, Search +8 (3 ranks), Spellcraft +11 (8 ranks), Spot +5 (3 ranks)
Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell.
Alignment: Neutral Good
Diety: Reveres Sehanine Moonbow, other Seldarine deities

120 years of age, 4 feet 6 inches tall, 80 pounds, long raven black hair (let down), blue eyes, milky skin.
Languages: Common, Elven, Draconian, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan

Spell DC modifier: 13 + spell level
Spells per day: 0/4, 1/4, 2/3, 3/2
Spells readied:
0/Light, Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead
1/Mage Armor, Shocking Grasp*2, Magic Missile
2/Protection from Arrows, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
3/Fireball, Hold Person.


Narrin
Human male (Fighter 5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (42 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Move 20 feet (4 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (+2 Dex, +8 Armor, +2 Shield), 12 touch, 20 flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+9
Attack: Heavy pick +11 (1d6+5 20*4), long sword + 9 (1-8+4, 19-20*2), light pick + 9 (1-4 20*4), throwing axe (1-6+4 20*2, 10 ft), or heavy composite bow +9 (1-8+4 19-20*2, 110 feet)
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
Special Attacks: None
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10.

Skills: Climb 4 ranks (Str +4), Jump 4 ranks (Str +4), Swim 8 ranks (Str +4), Spot 4 ranks (8 points spent)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick), Weapon Specialization (Heavy pick), Two Weapon Proficiency, Point Blank Shot
Alignment: Neutral
Diety: Reveres Tempus


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

Having (somehow) seen Claire, Narrin goes down into his bunker and has his squire help him don his plate armor.  He readies himself, then sets out through the woods for the glade in which Claire is resting.
  His armor is too noisy for him to advance unnoticed, and he is curious as to why this lone girl is out in the wilderness alone.

  Claire hears him coming (Listen DC 0, methinks.)
  Claire stands up and takes Cover on the edge of the glade, wondering who is approaching.  She readies a Shocking Grasp, in case this something approaching is hostile.

  Narrin has his bow strung, but not nocked.  He advances into the glade, and looks around for Claire (since no Search skill, does an Intelligence check at a penalty of 2 (DM's Friend rule, since she is hiding), rolls a 7, and spots her.

  And then ...


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## painandgreed (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Claire hears him coming (Listen DC 0, methinks.)
> Claire stands up and takes Cover on the edge of the glade, wondering who is approaching.  She readies a Shocking Grasp, in case this something approaching is hostile.




What's the Listen check to hear somebody casting a spell?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

I don't know.  Probably DC 30, or so.  Beyond Narrin's ability.
  Claire cast the Shocking Grasp, and has been holding the Charge, for many long minutes.
  She cast it while Narrin was still a thousand feet off or so, having heard him clanking in his armor through the woods towards her.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

Remember that every post I make is a question, whether or not it looks like one.
  I'm employing the mechanics as well as I know how to do, then hoping you will correct me if I'm wrong (and, hopefully, not resort to banging your head against the wall because of my endless mistakes.    )

  So far, I've learned an ENORMOUS amount of information from you'all, that I tried to learn on my own and failed to understand, because you were willing to post and correct me.  And I appreciate it.  Thank you all.  

  Yours Sincerely
  Edena_of_Neith


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## painandgreed (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I don't know.  Probably DC 30, or so.  Beyond Narrin's ability.
> Claire cast the Shocking Grasp, and has been holding the Charge, for many long minutes.
> She cast it while Narrin was still a thousand feet off or so, having heard him clanking in his armor through the woods towards her.



I think saying she heard him 1000 feet away is a bit of a strech. Woods might not block sound as well as sight but they still muffle it as does distance. You can't even hear a car 1000's of feet through the woods.

If casting a spell is the same as a person talking, then that's DC 0 which is the same as hearing somebody walking in heavy armor. They'll have the same distance penaties for equivilent actions so by time she hears him and starts casting, he'll have moved and probably made up the difference in distance that her +2 in Listen gaver her.

The DC is about what you say if wizards can get away with casting while whispering, but even if she made the first possible role witha 20, that's only at 220' as per RAW.


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## Silveras (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena, 

Spot vs. Hide and Listen vs. Move Silently are probably complicating your scenario more than you need. If your main focus is on how the fighting goes, just say they start in a 30 ft by 30 ft room, entering from doors on opposing sides simultaneously. 

Terrain, like Forests, modifies the base skill checks and encounter distances. You will probably have a whole series of posts trying to clarify it when you get to it. As much as I love to see someone putting some flavor into their combats, you might want to either a) focus on JUST how the encounter starts, leaving the combat for later; or b) simplify the start (as above) and leave the detection for later. 

Medium Forest: 
Maximum Encounter Distance: 2d8x10 ft. Anything over that, and you are no longer using Spot checks. (3.5 DMG, p.87). 

Stealth in a Forest: Undergrowth gives a circumstance bonus to Hide checks. Fallen logs and trees provide cover, also enabling and enhancing Hide. Undergrowth penalizes Move Silently checks, but the background noise of the forest also penalizes Listen checks.


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## JRRNeiklot (Dec 14, 2005)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> I think saying she heard him 1000 feet away is a bit of a strech. Woods might not block sound as well as sight but they still muffle it as does distance. You can't even hear a car 1000's of feet through the woods.





A thousand feet is NOTHING in the woods.  In a crowded city, the noise would be drowned out by the endless traffic, people, and machinery, but in the woods, a cracking branch, brush raking across leather, a muffled grunt, can carry a long, long, way.  Not to mention the clanking of armor.


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## IcyCool (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Claire stands up and takes Cover on the edge of the glade, wondering who is approaching.




This is a Hide check.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> She readies a Shocking Grasp, in case this something approaching is hostile.




As combat rounds have not started, she cannot 'Ready an Action', although she can cast Shocking Grasp and hold the charge.  If Shocking Grasp has a verbal component, she must 'speak in a loud, clear voice', thereby alerting Narrin to her presence (he'll most likely be able to hear her, just as she hear him).



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> He advances into the glade, and looks around for Claire (since no Search skill, does an Intelligence check at a penalty of 2 (DM's Friend rule, since she is hiding), rolls a 7, and spots her.




Nope.  Spot is used to find hidden creatures.  Search is only ever used to look for traps and the like.  Spot to find hidden foes, Search to find traps.  In this case, say that Claire got a 10 on her hide check.  Narrin would then need a 10 on his spot check to see her.


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## Silveras (Dec 14, 2005)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> A thousand feet is NOTHING in the woods.  In a crowded city, the noise would be drowned out by the endless traffic, people, and machinery, but in the woods, a cracking branch, brush raking across leather, a muffled grunt, can carry a long, long, way.  Not to mention the clanking of armor.




The accuracy with which the D&D rules model parts of the real world has always been a topic of debate (and deservedly so). For the purposes of learning the rules, though, I think we are all best served by sticking to what they say, even when it flies in the face of personal experience.


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## MichaelH (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Finalized Claire and Narrin (I hope?  Correct?  (sighs))



Mostly correct.  There are a few problems with Narrin.  I will post both in the new stat block format in the DMG2 and Dungeon magazine.

Claire, cute elven mage    CR 5
Female high elf wizard 5
NG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +7; Senses Low-light vision; Listen +2, Spot +2
Languages Common, elven, draconic, orc, sylvan, gnoll, goblinoid, gnome
______________________________________________________________________________
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10
HP 24 (5 HD)
Immune sleep spells and effects
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4; +2 against Enchantment spells and effects
______________________________________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee longsword +2 (1d8/19-20) or dagger +2 (1d4/19-20)
Ranged longbow +5 (1d8/x3) or dagger +5 (1d4/19-20)
Base Atk +2; Grp +2
Special Actions spells
Spells Prepared (CL 5th, +2 touch, +5 ranged touch)
	3 – Fireball (DC 16), Hold Person (DC 16)
	2 – Protection from Arrows, Melf’s Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
	1 – Mage Armor, Shocking Grasp x2, Magic Missile
	0 – Acid Splash, Light, Disrupt Undead, Read Magic
Deity Sehanine Moonbow
______________________________________________________________________________
Abilities Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 13
SQ Elf traits
Feats Skill Focus (concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell
Skills Concentration +13, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Listen +2, Search +8, Spellcraft +11, Spot +2



and.....


Narrin           CR 5
Male human fighter 5
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses normal vision; Listen +0, Spot +4
Languages Common plus one
______________________________________________________________________________
AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 20
HP 42 (5 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1
______________________________________________________________________________
Spd 20 ft.
Melee heavy pick +10 (1d6+6/x4) or light pick +9 (1d4+4/x4) or longsword +9 (1d8+4/19-20)
Ranged throwing axe +7 (1d6+4) or composite longbow (Str +4) +7 (1d8+4/x3)
Base Atk +5; Grp +9
Atk Options power attack, two weapon fighting
Deity Tempus
______________________________________________________________________________
Abilities Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (heavy pick), Weapon Specialization (heavy pick), Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot
Skills Climb +4, Jump +4, Spot +4, Swim -4
Possessions Full plate armor, heavy steel shield


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## painandgreed (Dec 14, 2005)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> A thousand feet is NOTHING in the woods.  In a crowded city, the noise would be drowned out by the endless traffic, people, and machinery, but in the woods, a cracking branch, brush raking across leather, a muffled grunt, can carry a long, long, way.  Not to mention the clanking of armor.



That's not my experience when in the woods doing WW2 re-enactment. Gunshots carry well but everything else including detecting vehicles moving is pretty much limited to under 100 yards unless looking across and open field at somebody not trying to hide.


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## MichaelH (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Finalized Claire and Narrin (I hope?  Correct?  (sighs))
> 
> Claire
> Cute Elven Mage (Wizard 5)
> ...



Claire has 3 too many languages, perhaps four if she started with a 15 Int.

She only has 26 skill points but should have 32, unless you wanted those extra 6 skill points for those 3 extra languages.  If so, then your skills and languages are correct here, unless she started with a 15 Int.



> Narrin
> Human male (Fighter 5)
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...



Initiative should be +2 due to his 15 Dex.

AC is 21 because the max dex to AC for full plate armor is +1.  Touch AC should be 11.

Heavy pick should only be +10 to hit (+5 base attack, +4 Str, +1 weapon focus).  The damage should be 1d6+6 (+4 Str, 2 weapon specialization).

The composite longbow (Str +4) should be +7 to hit (+5 base attack, +2 Dex).

He only has 24 skill points but should have 32.

His armor check penalty is -8 to his Climb and Jump skills and -16 to his Swim skill.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 14, 2005)

MichaelH said:
			
		

> Claire has 3 too many languages, perhaps four if she started with a 15 Int.




Yup.  You don't automatically get all the languages listed as "bonus" languages for your race (which may be where Edena went wrong here).  You get the "automatic" languages, and, for each point of your Int bonus at character creation, you get to pick another language from your race's "bonus language" list.  You can then spend skill points to learn additional languages.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

Thanks, Michael.  When you reposted the characters in DMG2 Format, did you correct the mistakes?

  Could you repost the characters in the DMG2 Format, with the mistakes corrected?  Please?  A personal request from Yours Truly.

  -

  Claire starts with 3 extra languages, using the 6 skill points.  She has Draconic, Sylvan, and Gnomish.

  If Narrin is 6 skill points short, give him 3 ranks in Search.

  Narrin is 25, 6 feet 5, weighs 250 pounds, is obviously very muscular, has long black hair, and grey eyes.  He wears his thick black beard long, with a stylized mustache.  His brows are bushy.

  Claire has the large, almond shaped eyes of the high elves, but with only a little slant.  Her chin is narrower than a human's, but not dramatically so.  Her face is pleasant and friendly, with a soft nose and cherubic ears (they are pointed, but do not stick up to the top of her head!  They are narrower than a human's ears, and slightly longer.
  Claire might be the younger version of the elf on page 220 of the DMG.  Might be.  In elven terms, she's around the human equivalent of 18.

  -

  Ok ...

  Narrin is walking through the woods towards the clearing.
  Claire casts her Shocking Grasp spell, and holds it.
  In an opposed skill check of Listen versus Hide, Narrin doesn't have Listen and Claire doesn't have Hide, so it falls back on their relevant stats.
  Narrin rolls a 19, plus no bonus for his Wisdom (Wisdom 11.)  Claire rolls an 8, modified to an 11 for her Dexterity (Dexterity 17.)
  Narrin wins the opposed skill check.

  Realizing that the young woman down there is casting a spell, and that it might well be hostile, Narrin draws his bow and nocks an arrow to it, before continuing.
  Thus, when Narrin enters the clearing (which is 50 feet across) he is ready for combat.

  Narrin then looks around for the hiding girl.  Opposed skill checks again:  Spot versus Hide.  Narrin rolls high again, a 15.  No modifiers.  Claire rolls low again, a 10, modified to a 13.
  Narrin spots Claire hiding behind a tree.
  Narrin decides, for good or for bad, that this young woman should be dealt with forcibly.

  Narrin calls for the girl to come out.  Running will do no good, for his bow is trained on her, says he.  There is nowhere to run anyways, says he.  If the girl will not come out, Narrin says, he will be required to drag her out.
  Claire reacts hostilely to this statements, and comes out.  The distance between the two closes to 40 feet.
  Claire in no uncertain terms warns the stranger to back off, to leave her be.  She is seeking a healer, and will not be delayed.
  Narrin is irritated mightily by this attitude.  He always thought elves were stuck up, and now this little girl is telling him off.  He informs her he will take her back to his home, by force as a prisoner if need be, or she can come willingly.  Then, says he, he will discuss the healer.
  Claire regards Narrin coldly, and informs him that he will do no such thing.
  Narrin gestures to his huge, readied bow, arrow nocked, and smirks at the girl.  He then asks her politely what a mage, alone and without help, is going to do against him - a fighter - in toe to toe combat?
  Claire quietly informs him that he will die.  Pure and simple.
  Narrin has had enough of this backtack from this little girl.  He fires a warning shot over her head, then reloads.
  Claire, face cold and set, advances on him, raising her hands.  She informs him that he had his chance, but now his only choice is to surrender, or die.
  Narrin, aims his bow directly at Claire.  An arrow will change her outlook, says he.  Thinking about it, he figures he can get healing later for the prisoner he intends to make of her.  After her behavior, he will enjoy breaking her elvish attitude with short rations and little water, confined out in the cold night with the insects and the rodents, and little sympathy and much scorn from him.
  Narrin takes aim with his bow, and ...

  The combat begins.

  (Heading for bed.  Be back later!)


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## MichaelH (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Thanks, Michael.  When you reposted the characters in DMG2 Format, did you correct the mistakes?
> 
> Could you repost the characters in the DMG2 Format, with the mistakes corrected?  Please?  A personal request from Yours Truly.
> 
> ...



Yes, the mistakes were corrected in the new stat block posts.

Claire's skill points are good as you had them, then.  My post has the extra points spent.  I will correct that.

Edit:  Actually, I just noticed that Claire has two cross-class skills with ranks (Search and Spot).  So with the 6 skill points used for languages, you have 6 too many skill points.  I dropped the 3 ranks in Spot (6 skill points) in my stat block for Claire to correct this.

Narrin actually is short by 8 skill points.  I maxed his his four skills with 8 skill points each, resulting in 8 ranks in Climb, Jump, and Swim, and 4 ranks in Spot.


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## Silveras (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> In an opposed skill check of Listen versus Hide, Narrin doesn't have Listen and Claire doesn't have Hide, so it falls back on their relevant stats.




Actually, many skills (including Hide, Spot, Listen, and Move Silently) can be used untrained. They follow the usual rules, and receive the same modifiers, it is just that the user has 0 ranks. 

So Claire receives +5 to her Hide check for the undergrowth. 

Narrin receives -1 per 5 feet of distance to his Listen check for the undergrowth. The DC for hearing Claire casting is base 0, -1 per 5 feet of distance. If he starts 100 feet away, he can't hear her. 

You use Spot to detect someone Hiding.. not Listen. Listen has nothing to do with Hide. Hide/Spot and Move Silently/Listen are opposing pairs. 

Claire's Hide check is thus 18 (10 + 3 for Dex + 5 for circumstances in the forest). Narrin's 15 does not come close to beating then. In fact, as Narrin is 50 feet away when he enters the clearing, he fails to see her, as his net check is a 10 (-1 penalty per 10 feet of distance). 

Also, for Narrin to realize what Claire is doing, he would have to at least beat the Listen DC by 10 (to make out the words). Identifying that sound alone as a spell, specifically, is not covered (to my knowledge) in the rules. Another skill check of some kind (Knowledge (Arcana) or Spellcraft) is most likely required to tell that it is not just spoken words in a foreign language.


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## monboesen (Dec 14, 2005)

Thanks Edena, but it's not really my template. It seems to be a bastardized version of the DMG2 one.

Another, IMO, helpful rule in 3ed is the "take 10" one. In a situation like the one you are describing I would most often use that. So both characters take 10 on their skills until they are very close or to stressed out to do so. When playing it saves you a lot of rolls (and often the players a lot of grief from random high or low rolls) and time. 

Claires Listen check will then be 12 (10+2) and Narrins makes a lot of noice (DC 0 - 8 armor check penalty). Thats a 12 vs DC -8. In a forest you have a penalty to listen checks of -2/10 ft. So Claire should be able to hear Narrin at a 100 ft. distance 

Narrin would hear her talking (or casting a spell) from a distance of 50 ft. Because Narrins listen check is 10 (10+0) vs. DC 0 + 2/10 ft distance. He would not be able to make out the actual words or language spoken. So if Claire casts her spell as soon as she hears the rattling armor and horse Narrin will not hear any spellcasting (he is to far away = more than 50 ft.)

Claires hide modifier of +8 (+3 dex, +5 circumstance) and Narrins Spot modifer of +4 (4 ranks) means that he will not be able to spot her. At least not without some kind of serious effort to search the clearing. As far as his senses can tell, he will be looking at an empty and silent clearing once he gets there. 

In fact Claire would have a decent chance of sneaking away while Narrin tries to find her (making a Spot check each round hoping to roll high or taking twenty by using 20 rounds). This is why you want to be a Ranger (with Spot and Listen as class skill) when looking for enemies in a forest. 

*Not suprisingly Hide, Move silent, Spot and Listen are among the most used and important skills in the game.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Ok, something's wrong here.
> Most people can look down the road, and see something human sized (especially if it is moving) 3,000 feet away.  It won't be large, but they'll see it.




Yes, they can. If they know what direction to look and spend a lot of time looking in that one area. Even if you Take 20, you aren't concentrating on everything around you.



> _So it's not DC 300, for the Spot Check.  In the case above, it'd be DC 5 (unless the viewer was nearsighted, as Yours Truly once was, obviously.)_





DC 300 is about right for 3,000 feet.



> _So, anyone?  Narrin is trying to Spot Claire.  Claire is just generally looking for anything dangerous (but the only dangerous thing is Narrin, hiding up in the trees on that hillock, more than 100 feet up, 3,000 feet away.  There is a direct line of sight between them, by a trick of the foliage of the forest.  Claire looks at the hillock longer, since it is obvious to her a danger is more likely to be there.)
> 
> What would they need for their Spot rolls?_





I gave you the by the book answer: to Spot her, not hiding would be DC 300. To Spot him, hiding, would be the result of his Hide check +300.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

That settles that:  the forest BURNED DOWN!


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

SOMEHOW Narrin spotted Claire 3,000 feet away in the clearing (I don't know how he did it, but he did it!)
  Narrin goes to his bunker, where his squire helps him don his armor.  He strings his bow, readies himself, and sets out.

  At some point (I don't know when, and nobody else does either  ) Claire hears someone walking towards her through the forest, armor clanking and brush rustling.
  Claire decides NOT to hide.  But she casts Mage Armor and Protection from Arrows on herself while waiting for the stranger to arrive.  She knows that Damara isn't exactly full of kindly strangers.  Then she casts Shocking Grasp and holds it, in case the stranger is hostile and manages to close with her to melee range.

  Narrin may or may not hear her casting.  Probably he doesn't.
  Narrin saw, from his observatory, a lone girl.  He figures he can deal with a lone girl.  He's taken on and defeated entire groups of treasure hunters.  In any case, he is curious about this girl, and why she is here, alone in the forest.

  Narrin walks into the clearing, bow nocked (but he has not taken a Ready action.)
  Claire sees this, and raises her hands threateningly.
  Narrin gestures threateningly with the bow.  Claire halts, lowers her hands, and asks him to put down the bow.
  They are now standing 40 feet part.  Neither is moving now.  Narrin keeps the arrow nocked, but he is not aiming it at Claire.

  Narrin demands to know what she is doing here, where she is going, and why she is in Damara in the first place.  And where are her friends, since nobody travels here alone.
  Claire informs him that none of this is his business.  She asks him to back off, to move on.
  Narrin coldly informs her this is Damara, she is trespassing, he is the authority here, and he has the right to know.
  Claire replies that she is looking for a healer, she intends no trespassing, she has people in trouble she is trying to help, and if he will not help her, he should leave her be.
  Narrin (who hates the healer she is seeking) states that this is not good enough.  Why did she and her friends enter Damara in the first place?  Were they treasure hunters?  A lot of filthy, disgusting treasure hunters often come to Damara, he says.
  Claire and her now wounded friends were here on a treasure hunt.  She offers a plausible explanation for why she and her friends were in Damara (short, and not related to treasure-hunting) but Narrin doesn't buy it.  
  Narrin informs Claire she will have to come with him to his bunker, and there they can discuss the healer and what to do.  This is not a request, says he, but an order.
  Claire refuses.
  Narrin gestures threateningly with his bow.
  Claire smiles grimly, and tells him to be on his way.
  Narrin informs her he will shoot her if she does not obey him.
  Claire quietly informs him he will die if he attempts harm against her.
  A short, brittle silence occurs ...

  Then the combat starts.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Claire decides NOT to hide.  But she casts Mage Armor and Protection from Arrows on herself while waiting for the stranger to arrive.  She knows that Damara isn't exactly full of kindly strangers.  Then she casts Shocking Grasp and holds it, in case the stranger is hostile and manages to close with her to melee range.




She should have cast _mage armor_ hours ago, I think. 



> Narrin informs her he will shoot her if she does not obey him.
> Claire quietly informs him he will die if he attempts harm against her.
> A short, brittle silence occurs ...
> 
> Then the combat starts.




I can't wait to see how this turns out.

PS I noticed on Claire's character sheet that she has Enlarge Spell but hasn't used it on any of her prepared spells. I thought that was a little strange.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

This combat could go any number of ways, and end in any number of situations.
  If any of you wish to write your version of the combat out, please do so.  The example you write would help me learn the game.  (And, I enjoy reading what you write, folks.   )

  Now, I will write out my first take on the battle.


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## The_Gneech (Dec 14, 2005)

Strategically, from Claire's POV, I would dump _shocking grasp_ and have extra _magic missiles_ prepared instead, which doesn't do a lot of damage (3d4+3 at this stage), but never misses and can be cast from far away. And, as (Psi)SeveredHead mentions, _mage armor_ and _protection from arrows_ would have been up before the encounter started.

NOTE: I used a random number generator for all checks.

Round One
They make Initiative checks. Claire rolls really badly (1!), for a total of 8. Luckily for her, Narrin also rolls a 1, for a total of 2. They both curse their dice, and Claire opens up with _Melf's acid arrow_, rolling a ranged touch attack at +5 (+2 BAB, +3 Dex) against Narrin's touch AC of 12. She rolls 13, +5 = 18, an easy hit! The acid burns Narrin for 7 points of damage this round, and will continue next round. Claire has a standard action left, and backpedals 30 feet away to increase the range between them to 70'.

Narrin snarls, moves forward 20' (reducing the range to 50') and lets fly with an arrow, rolling 17, + 9 = 26, another easy hit. He rolls a rather weak 2, +4 = 6 points of damage. Claire's _protection from arrows_ sucks that up easily -- it still has 44 points of protection left! Narrin curses all mages.

Round Two
Claire decides she doesn't want Narrin closing again, and casts _hold person_ on him. Narrin attempts a Will save vs DC 16, rolling 14, +1 = 15. He fails and is paralyzed. Just to add injury to insult, he also takes another 7 points of damage from the _acid arrow_, which is now spent. With her second action, Claire moves 30' away again (80').

Narrin attempts another Willpower save to break the _hold person_. He rolls 12, +1 = 13, and would curse all mages if he could talk. He's down to 28 hp already and hasn't made a scratch.

Round Three
Since she doesn't want to use up all her spells -- not knowing what else is lurking in the burning forest -- Claire moves another 15' (to 95') while drawing her bow (drawing a weapon can be combined with a move action if you have a BAB of +1 or better). Figuring that she'll run like heck on her next turn, she takes a potshot just to further discourage Narrin. She rolls a 2, +5 = 7, and manages to impale a tree.

Narrin attempts another Willpower save. He rolls 10, +1 = 11, and just sighs pathetically. Only three more rounds of standing around looking stupid to go!

Round Four
Claire decides to beat feet. She uses a Run action to run 120', increasing the range to 215'.

Narrin is really torqued at this point! This inspires him to roll a 19, +1 = 20! The _hold person_ is broken! Too bad that was a full-round action.

Round Five
Glancing back, Claire sees the stirrings of movement, and now has to choose: slow down to a 60' full move, or continue using the Run action for the 120'. Then she remembers her _protection from arrows_ and decides "Screw it, I'm running!" The range is now 335'.

Narrin can't just let her get away! But she's three range bands away and moving fast. He does the only thing he can: moves 20' (bringing the range back down to 315') and lets fly. He rolls 7, + 9 (his attack bonus) - 4 (two range bands) = 12 vs. Claire's AC of 14 (she lost her Dex bonus for the Run, but still has her _mage armor_). It's a miss ... and it's just going to get worse from there.

Round Six
Claire ducks into the woods.

Narrin curses all mages ... and heads back to camp.

-The Gneech


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## Storm Raven (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Finalized Claire and Narrin (I hope?  Correct?  (sighs))
> 
> Claire
> Cute Elven Mage (Wizard 5)
> ...




By the rules, except for knowing too many languages (she should know elven, common, and three bonus languages), and she has memorized on too few 0-level spells, she is okay by the rules. I wouldn't design a mage this way - I would never make a major focus of a straight mage melee touch spells. I might memorize one _shocking grasp_, but never two, unless I also had _spectral hand_ memorized. She is also unequipped - she should have a couple thousand gold worth of gear - an _amulet of natural armor +1_, a _cloak of resistance +1_, perhaps a _headband of Intellect +2_ and so on. She should have a number of scrolls on hand, mostly that she scribed herself. I'd probably swap out the Enlarge Spell feat for Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Wand, and have her make several items for her use.

Her skills seem to be off as well. She should have 5 skill points per level (2 + Intelligence bonus), allowing her to max out 5 skills. Even accounting for the cross class skills, she only has four skills maxed out. If she raises her Knowledge: Arcana skill to 5 ranks, she gets a +2 synergy bonus to Spellcraft checks.



> _Narrin
> Human male (Fighter 5)
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...





The max dex bonus for full plate armor is +1, so his AC would actually be 21 (+2 heavy shield, +8 full plate, +1 Dex). His initiative bonus would actually be +2 (for Dexterity, the Max Dex bonus of armor _only_ affects the maximum Dexterity bonus you may gain from armor). His attack bonus with the heavy pick would be +10 (+5 BAB, +4 Strength, +1 WF), unless you assume he has a masterwork pick. His ranged attack bonus (with the throwing axe and composite longbow) is +7 (+5 BAB, +2 Dexterity).

I think you have shortchanged him on skills, in addition to havbing an Intelligence bonus of +1, he is human. He should get 4 skill points per level, not 3, allowing him to max out one more skill at 8 ranks. You have not accounted for the armor check penalty for his skills. His armor and shield impose a combined -8 penalty to a wide array of skill checks, in this case, Climb and Jump would be -0, not +8. Armor check penalties to the Swim skill are doubled - his Swim checks would be at -4, not +12.

I would not bother with Improved Unarmed Strike or Two-Weapon Fighting. A big Strength type fighter is usually better off using a two-handed weapon like a greatsword or greataxe. If you want to fight "up close", just buying a spiked gauntlet is probably a better choice than spending a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike. Ditching those feats would allow you to take Cleave, or Improved Bull Rush, or Rapid Shot, or something generally more useful. You could also climb the Combat Expertise tree, going to Improved Disarm or Improved Trip. I would probably consider Iron Will too, to offset his really low Will save.

He is also woefully unequipped. He should probably have a _cloak of resistance_, and maybe _gauntlets of ogre power +2_, or an _amulet of health +2_ to give him a Constitution or Strength enhancement.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

Narrin does have an arrow nocked, but he didn't declare a Ready Action (a mistake.)
  There is no surprise round.  Both Claire and Narrin are Flat-Footed.

  Initiative is rolled on d20s.  Claire rolls a 7.  Narrin rolls a 13.  Claire has a + 7 modifier (+ 3 dexterity, + 4 Improved Initiative.)  Narrin has a + 1 modifier (+ 1 dexterity.)  They tie at 14.
  I do not know how ties are resolved in 3rd edition.  I'm guessing the person with the higher modifier wins ties, though.  Claire has the higher modifier, so she wins the initiative.

  Claire casts Hold Person on Narrin.  She loses the Shocking Grasp charge in the process.  But that's fine with her:  she has no intention of closing with this huge, armored, and heavily armed foe.  Hopefully, she can stop him from closing with her.
  Casting a spell usually provokes an AOO, if the foe is within melee range.  But Narrin is 40 feet away.  Narrin does not get an AOO, even with his bow.
  Narrin is entitled to a Will save.  His Will save is lousy (+ 1) and Claire's Hold Person DC is 16 (+ 3 for the spell level, + 3 for Claire's Intelligence.)
  Narrin rolls a 12, and fails the roll.  He freezes in place, momentarily helpless.
  Claire, realizing her spell worked, takes her move action, and moves 25 feet towards Narrin.  She warned this brigand - for that is what she thinks he is - to leave her be.  She gave him every chance.  But he said he was going to kill her.  He still has that bow in hand, arrow nocked.  She will close and deliver a Coup de Grace.
  Claire's move places her 15 feet from Narrin (a serious mistake)

  Narrin declares a Full Round Action to break the Hold.

  Next round.

  Claire cannot make a Coup de Grace this round, because she's still 15 feet away.  She must make a move action to reach Narrin, and a Coup de Grace is a Full Round Action.
  Claire readies her second Shocking Grasp, moves, and touches Narrin (+ 4 for a helpless target, + 5 because a helpless target is considered to have Dexterity 0, ignores armor, and Narrin put aside his shield to use his bow.)  
  Claire rolls a 7 and hits.  She would only have missed on a 1 (had she attacked with her long sword, she would have missed on a 6 or less.)
  Claire delivers 18 points of damage to Narrin.  He is outlined in blue electrical glory for a moment, and a silent scream rushes through his body.  But he had 42 hit points, and survives the attack.

  Narrin now rolls his save again.  He needs to roll a 15 or higher.  Luckily for him, and unfortunately for Claire, he rolls a 17, and breaks free.
  Narrin now immediately acts (his Full Round Action was last round.  It's now this round.  And it's payback time.
  Narrin draws his heavy pick as a move action, then draws his long sword as his second move action.  Towering over Claire, he raises his weapons in a gesture of doom.  (He should have attacked with the heavy pick immediately, but Narrin is proud, and wanted to show off.  He wanted to show this girl just how mighty he was, and how helpless she was.  In doing so, he gave her a chance to act.)
  Had Narrin attacked with the heavy pick, he would have needed a 6 or better to hit, and would have inflicted 1 - 6 + 5 points of damage.

  Claire realizes she is in trouble, for she is toe to toe with this huge warrior.
  Claire makes a Double Move backwards to the underbrush at the other side of the glade, ending her move around 55 feet from where Narrin is.  That's a full round action, so Claire can cast no spells this round.  But, she will live to cast spells next round!

  Narrin considers ...
  Narrin realizes he won't catch her (a Charge or Double Move won't bring him into range this round.  A Run would enable him to close, but he can't attack while running, and she could just keep going.)
  Narrin drops his heavy pick (a free action), draws his throwing axe, a move action, then hurls it at Claire's back.
  Narrin rolls a 12.  He has + 5 BAB, + 4 Strength, but she is 60 feet away so that is a - 5.  His modified roll is a 16.  Her AC is 17, so he misses.  He curses loudly as she barely dodges it.

  Claire whirls and lets loose withc Melf's Acid Arrow.  The magical arrow appears and rockets across the glade at Narrin.  This is a ranged touch attack.
  Claire rolls a 12.  She has BAB + 2, Dexterity + 3, and no range penalty.  The arrow slices right through Narrin's armor as if it was not there, plunges into Narrin, and begins disgorging it's acid.  Narrin clutches at it, doubling over in pain, then recovers, snarling.  Claire rolls 5 points of damage for this round (the acid will continue into next round.)  Narrin has 23 hit points of damage on him.

  Narrin charges.  This moves him 40 feet towards Claire.  It isn't sufficient to bring him into melee range, unfortunately for him.

  Claire knows that she can outrun this charging fighter.  Even though the vegetation behind her is thick and matted, she can easily maintain her distance.
  Claire moves backwards into the brush, taking her move action of 30 feet (however, it is not 30 feet, but 15 feet because it is Difficult Terrain.)
  Claire then casts Fireball on the charging Narrin.  The Fireball detonates, lighting the glade in brilliant glory, then rising high into the air before dissipating into a large cloud of smoke (which alerts everything for miles around that something is afoot.)
  Narrin rolls his Reflex Save.  He rolls a 19, and takes half damage.  Half damage is 9 points.    Then the second round of the Melf's Acid Arrow delivers another 5 points of damage.  Narrin has taken 37 points of damage.  He has 5 hit points left.  He is in trouble.
  Narrin realizes he cannot catch this elusive girl.  His armor is too heavy, and she is just too fleet of foot.  He dropped his bow and heavy pick 40 feet back, he has thrown his axe, so what is he to do?  He still has his long sword, but the girl will undoubtedly throw another distance spell.
  Should he dive into the nearby brush for concealment?  Yeah, that's a good idea, he thinks.  He takes his move action of 20 feet to move into concealment.  He opts for Total Concealment, knowing another successful spell is going to kill him, and hoping the elven girl doesn't have another Fireball.

  Now, Claire and Narrin are roughly 40 feet from each other.

  Claire sees she is no longer being pursued, and drops into Total Concealment also.  She does not want another axe thrown her way, or a hammer, or whatever else the huge warrior out there might think up.

  For some time, nobody speaks, but rustling in the underbrush allows both Claire and Narrin to at least know the other is nearby.  Neither dares to stand up and do a Spot, though, afraid of a killing attack.
  Finally, it comes down to solique.
  Claire, guessing that Narrin is hurt badly, calls on him to surrender, to walk into the glade and throw down his weapons.
  Narrin, calls on Claire to surrender, informing her that she will not escape.  If he does not hunt her down, his friends will.  And he has lots of friends here, in Damara!

  Another long silence ...

  Claire begins crawling towards the sound of Narrin's voice, hoping to Spot him through the brush, and attempting to move silently.
  Narrin rolls an opposed check:  listen versus move silently.  Narrin rolls a 10.  Claire rolls a 10.  Claire's higher Dexterity swings it, giving her a 13.  Narrin does not hear her approach.
  Now Claire rolls an opposed check:  spot versus hide.  She rolls a 10 (modified to 13 for Spot ranks, and then to 15 for Dex).  He rolls a 12 (modified to 14 for Dex, and to 19 for Underbrush.)  She does not see him.

  Now Narrin pulls the same trick.  The opposed check is rolled:  Claire rolls a 12 (modified to 15) to Move Silently, Narrin rolls a 16 to Listen, no modifiers for Wisdom.  Now Narrin hears her coming.
  Another opposed roll:  spot versus hide.  Narrin rolls a 12 for spot (modified to 16 for 4 ranks of spot, and 18 for Dex), Claire rolls a 13 (Dex + 3 makes it a 16, the Underbrush makes it a 21)  Narrin does not see Claire.

  They both move 5 feet towards each other this round (I'm guessing crawling through underbrush doesn't get you far in a 3rd Edition round.)  They are now 30 feet from each other.

  Claire stops moving, and peers through the underbrush.  
  Opposed check:  listen versus move silently.  Claire rolls a 15, Narrin rolls a 7 (Dex + 2).  Claire now hears him.
  Opposed chec:  spot versus hide.  Claire rolls a 17.  Narrin rolls a 9 (Dex + 2 and Underbrush + 5 make this a 16.
  Claire spots Narrin in the grass.
  Claire stands up, a move action, then declares a Ready Action:  If he draws a weapon, or tries to stand up, her Magic Missile spell will go off.

  Claire, hands readied and threatening, smiles gently at Narrin, and quietly informs him that she has a spell trained on him.  If he surrenders, she will allow him to live.  If he tries to stand up, tries to grab a weapon, or anything else, she will kill him.

  Narrin agrees to surrender.  But Narrin is not an honorable man, and he will do what it takes to win against this slip of a girl.  And capture her, instead of being taken prisoner himself!
  He disarms, as she demands.  He holds his hands outward, as she demands.

  Claire, has a problem.  Does she tie him up?  He could make a move and try to grapple her.  Does she demand he lead her to the healer, while keeping a spell trained on him?  The moment she looks the other way, this brigand will strike at her.  Does she simply kill him now?  She is reluctant:  this brigand deserves death, but Claire is a reluctant killer, and in any case this brigand knows where the healer is, and she does not.
  What should she do?  Hmmm ...

  EDIT:  Just did a major modification of the combat.  Check Narrin's actions again.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

Storm Raven, assume they both had the items you  mentioned, and the alternate feats you mentioned.
  They are 40 feet apart in the clearing, facing each other.  She has Protection from Arrows and Mage Armor up, Shocking Grasp held (the charge is held.)
  He has his bow out and arrow knocked, but has not declared a Ready Action.

  How would the combat go, according to yourself?

  And, anyone else?  You'all just saw my first take on it.

  -

  Mind you all, the clearing is 60 feet across.  They are both standing 10 feet from their respective edges.  Beyond is dense underbrush and an assortment of birch, aspen, and assorted conifers on all sides.  The sun is shining brightly down, for it is midday.

  The forest is not burning.


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## monboesen (Dec 14, 2005)

I'm going to steal Gneech's example and modify it lightly. I rolled dice the old fashioned way, by hand.

Round One
They make Initiative checks. Claire rolls 13, for a total of 20. Narrin rolls a 9, for a total of 11. Claire opens up with Hold person. Narrin attempts a Will save vs. DC 16, rolling 4, +1 = 5. He fails and is paralyzed. With her second action, Claire moves 30' closer (10').

Narrin attempts another Willpower save to break the hold person. He rolls 10, +1 = 11, and would curse all mages if he could talk.

Round Two
Since she doesn't want to use up all her spells -- not knowing what else is lurking in the burning forest -- Claire moves another 30' (to 10') while casting Shocking grasp.

Narrin attempts another Willpower save. He rolls 14, +1 = 15, and just sighs pathetically. Only three more rounds of standing around looking stupid to go!

Round Three
Claire decides to kill the stupid fighter. She starts a Coup de Grace and steps 5 ft. closer (5 ft.) 

Narrin is in trouble and knows it. He rolls a 8, +1 = 9. Still held

Round Four
Claire takes a step forward and electrocutes Narrin. The Coup de Grace is an automatic hit and critical for 10d6 damage. Poor Narrin takes 41 points of damage and makes a Fortitude save with DC 10+41 = 51. He rolls 19, +6 = 25 and dies instantly as the smell of fried chicken fills the clearing. 


The same scenario once again. I just rolled the dice again.

Round One
They make Initiative checks. Claire rolls 12, for a total of 19. Narrin rolls a 7, for a total of 9. Claire opens up with Hold person. Narrin attempts a Will save vs. DC 16, rolling 16, +1 = 17. He succeeds and is unaffected 

Knowing that he needs to get closer Narrin drops his bow and charges 40 ft. forward (0 ft.) and slams the elf maiden with his fist (as he does not have the time to draw his weapon). Narrin rolls 12, +9 attack, +2 charge = 23 and hits easily for 1, +4 = 5 points of damage.

Round Two
Hurt and surprised since she thought the fight would have been all over with her first spell, Claire realises that she lacks the spells to stop this opponent and withdraws 60 ft. (60 ft.). Her superior movement allows her to flee easily.

She is out of sight (120 ft.) before Narrin can get his hands on his bow and shoot at her.


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## William Ronald (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena, in the case of tied initiatives, the character or creature with the higher dexterity modifier wins.    If dexterity is equal, the two players or the DM and the player roll a d20 to see who wins.

I would also hesitate to rely two heavily on touch spells for a mage.  Also, I noiticed that Claire does not hae a familiar, which could deliver touch spells for her.

Mind you, i think fleeing the encounter makes sense for Clarie who is seeking help for her allies.  Mind you, I think the healer would be willing to help Claire and her friends out, especially since she frustrated one of the healer's enemies.  In this case, I think Narrin and his squire may soon have a band of adventurers to deal with.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

To William  

  Yes, Claire should flee.  That is a given.
  But Claire, like Narrin, suffers from pride and overconfidence.  When she levels, she has decided, she will take ranger as her 2nd class.  So she has stocked up on touch spells, thinking of herself as a warrior mage (which she is not.)

  That is why Claire did not immediately flee or hide, when she heard someone coming, and which is what she ought to have done.
  Facing off against a 6 foot 5 warrior in full armor and with heavy weapons was foolhardy, yet that is precisely what she did, before the combat started.
  As I said, she believes herself a warrior mage.  She isn't a ranger/mage yet, so she is jumping the gun, and serving her wounded friends poorly.  
  Hopefully, she will survive the encounter with Narrin, but perhaps she will not.  Or perhaps he will, indeed, take her prisoner.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

(humor, request)

  Help me out here, folks.
  We've had three example combats.  In one (mine) it appears Claire has the upper hand, and will take Narrin prisoner.  In another, Claire kills Narrin with no damage to herself.  In yet another, Claire simply turns and runs away, leaving Narrin to sulk.
  And yet ...
  Claire was right there, only 40 feet away, and Narrin had his (enormous) bow ready.

  Are you saying that Narrin the accomplished fighter cannot defeat the Cute Elven Mage, the wizard known as Claire?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

Repost:

  Claire, cute elven mage CR 5
Female high elf wizard 5
NG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +7; Senses Low-light vision; Listen +2, Search +2, Spot +2
Languages Common, elven, draconic, gnome, sylvan
__________________________________________________ 

AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10
HP 24 (5 HD)
Immune sleep spells and effects
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4; +2 against Enchantment spells and effects
__________________________________________________ 

Spd 30 ft.
Melee longsword +2 (1d8/19-20x2) or dagger +2 (1d4/19-20x2)
Ranged longbow +5 (1d8/20x3) or dagger +5 (1d4/19-20x2)
Base Atk +2; Grp +2
Special Actions spells
Spells Prepared (CL 5th, +2 touch, +5 ranged touch)
3 ? Fireball (DC 16), Hold Person (DC 16)
2 ? Protection from Arrows, Melf?s Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
1 ? Mage Armor, Shocking Grasp x2, Magic Missile
0 ? Acid Splash, Light, Disrupt Undead, Read Magic
Deity Sehanine Moonbow
__________________________________________________

Abilities Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 13
SQ Elf traits
Feats Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell
Skills Concentration +11 (8 ranks, Con +2), Knowledge Arcana +9 (6 ranks, Int +3), Hide +4 (1 rank, cc, Dex +3), Listen +6 (3 ranks, cc, racial +2), Search +7 (2 ranks, cc, Int + 3, Racial +2), Spellcraft +11 (8 ranks, Int +3), Spot +6 (3 ranks, cc, Wis +0, racial +2)

  Possessions: Long sword, short bow, 2 daggers, quiver and 20 arrows, spellbook, fancy travelling clothing



Narrin CR 5
Male human fighter 5
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses normal vision; Listen +0, Search +5, Spot +4
Languages Common, Sylvan
__________________________________________________ 

AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 20
HP 42 (5 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1
__________________________________________________ 

Spd 20 ft.
Melee heavy pick +10 (1d6+6/x4) or light pick +9 (1d4+4/x4) or longsword +9 (1d8+4/19-20)
Ranged throwing axe +7 (1d6+4) or composite longbow (Str +4) +7 (1d8+4/x3)
Base Atk +5; Grp +9
Atk Options power attack, two weapon fighting
Deity Tempus
__________________________________________________ 

Abilities Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (heavy pick), Weapon Specialization (heavy pick), Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot
Skills Climb +8 (4 ranks, Str +4), Jump +8 (4 ranks, Str +4), Spot +4 (4 ranks, cc, Wis +0), Search +5 (4 ranks, cc, Int +1), Swim -4 (8 ranks, Str +4, Armor -16)

Possessions: Full plate armor, heavy steel shield, heavy pick, long sword, composite long bow designed for 18 strength, throwing axe, quiver and 20 arrows

  EDIT:  Skills just modified slightly


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## monboesen (Dec 14, 2005)

> Are you saying that Narrin the accomplished fighter cannot defeat the Cute Elven Mage, the wizard known as Claire?




Narrin has many things working against him.

1. He is not build to deal with a spellcaster (needs a major will save boost).
2. He has a less than clever feat set and his melee weapon is pitiful.
3. The terrain is woking very much against him (though that's often the case for heavily armoured fighters, actually IMO more than chain shirts aren't worth it. Loss of movement is more of a detriment than lower AC).

If he wins initiative and crits with his fist shot he might win. Otherwise, nope not a chance. Not as long as Claire is being just moderately clever.


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## The_Gneech (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (humor, request)
> 
> Help me out here, folks.
> We've had three example combats.  In one (mine) it appears Claire has the upper hand, and will take Narrin prisoner.  In another, Claire kills Narrin with no damage to herself.  In yet another, Claire simply turns and runs away, leaving Narrin to sulk.
> ...




Their stats, as presented, are definitely stacked in her favor.

With no magic items on his side, Claire has a big advantage over him. His specialty is melee, but he is almost certainly not going to get a chance to close unless Claire uses monumentally bad tactics. As I tried to highlight in my example, _protection from arrows_ negates his only non-melee option, whereas _hold person_ has a 50/50 chance of negating *him*, period.

If he had some _boots of striding and springing_ or perhaps a _periapt of wisdom_, it might be a little less one-sided. Even a tanglefoot bag would have made life more difficult for her. (For that matter, a level of barbarian instead of fighter would have made distance less of an issue.) But this is also why characters travel in _parties_ -- a cleric on Narrin's side could have made a huge difference, for instance, by casting _silence_ or _remove paralysis_. (But then, Claire might have had a druid on her side casting _entangle_...)

This isn't to say the battle _couldn't_ end up with a win for Narrin -- but probably not on an open field with free movement, and mundane gear. If they were walking down perpinduclar dungeon corridors and both came 'round a corner and smacked into each other, they would launch straight into melee and Narrin would be able to use his abilities to the utmost.

If he could get a good grapple on her, she'd be up the creek.

-The Gneech


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## William Ronald (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> To William
> 
> Yes, Claire should flee.  That is a given.
> But Claire, like Narrin, suffers from pride and overconfidence.  When she levels, she has decided, she will take ranger as her 2nd class.  So she has stocked up on touch spells, thinking of herself as a warrior mage (which she is not.)
> ...





Pride is often the worst enemies of many player characters.  Still, I would argue that one of Claire's strengths in this encounter is her greater speed and mobility.  If the distances were much closer, Narrin would be in much better shape.  However, a person moving in heavy armor is going to make a LOT of noise in a forest. 

In your example, I would suggest having Claire force Narrin to lead her to the healer.  It would be unwise to try to tie him up.  If he grumbles, she can point out that he has given little reason to trust him.  If he attempts to attack or flee, use a magic missile or another spell on him.

(If Claire had memorized invisibility, cast it, and fled, you would see a very worried Narrin.  He would have no idea if she became invisible or teleported.  Hmm, maybe if Claire knows the Symbul she can mntion Narrin to her.  Narrin's attempts to waylay the Symbul might be AMUSING.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

Then perhaps this is why Claire is so overconfident.
  She has encountered enemies in heavy armor before, and defeated them with ease.  Her speed and initiative, her touch attacks and ranged spells, have laid them all low.
  Her friends have saved her from the stealth and unarmored opponents they've faced.  But now her friends are wounded and not with her.  She does not know her danger.

  Can you give me a better Feat and Skill build for Narrin, so he has a chance of winning?
  Assume he has any appropriate non-magical items.  He can have masterwork items if you want them.  Give him one magical item, also.


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## BobROE (Dec 14, 2005)

Since in monboesen's example Narrin was able to at least hit her, could he end the charge with a grapple attack instead of punching her?  Cause that would change things a little I would think (and is always a good way to deal with spellcasters).  He could then draw his throwing axe and attack with it (at a -4 penalty but he might as well use it instead of his fist).


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

Yes, what can Narrin do at the end of his charge?
  Assuming Narrin obtains a chance to charge Claire and actually reach her (5 feet away) what are his options?

  -

  It was posted above:

   Knowing that he needs to get closer Narrin drops his bow and charges 40 ft. forward (0 ft.) and slams the elf maiden with his fist (as he does not have the time to draw his weapon). Narrin rolls 12, +9 attack, +2 charge = 23 and hits easily for 1, +4 = 5 points of damage.

  If Narrin had the Quickdraw Feat, he could draw his heavy pick (and his long sword too?) and then make his one attack with the large pick (plus his attack with the long sword, because he has the Two-Weapon Proficiency Feat?)
  If Narrin is given Quickdraw, he charges, and he can attack with both weapons (the -4 penalty as usual) he downs Claire immediately.


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## The_Gneech (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> If Narrin is given Quickdraw, he charges, and he can attack with both weapons (the -4 penalty as usual) he downs Claire immediately.




Attacking with both weapons would require a Full Attack, which is a full-round action. He can charge and attack with a single weapon. The SRD says, re: a charge, that at the end of your move you may make "a single melee attack." Starting a grapple uses a melee touch attack, so I would rule that yes, you could charge and grapple. Sorta like a tackle.

I'm not sure if the "draw a weapon as part of a move" applies to charge, since theoretically it's a special attack rather than a move action. But purely from a dramatic POV, I don't see why the two actions couldn't be combined.

-The Gneech


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## Storm Raven (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (humor, request)
> 
> Help me out here, folks.
> We've had three example combats.  In one (mine) it appears Claire has the upper hand, and will take Narrin prisoner.  In another, Claire kills Narrin with no damage to herself.  In yet another, Claire simply turns and runs away, leaving Narrin to sulk.
> ...




As built, probably not. A lack of appropriate equipment hampers non-spellcasters more significantly than it hampers spellcasters, since spellcasters keep their spells. Plus, Narrin's feat selections and mundane equipment are not very well chosen. Here is a revised version of Narrin:

_Narrin_; 5th level Human Fighter; CR 5; Medium humanoid; Str 18, Int 11, Wis 13, Dex, 15, Con 15, Cha 10; Fort +7, Reflex +4, Will +5; HD 5d10+10; HP 42; Init +2; Move 20 feet (base 30 feet); Face/Reach 5 feet/5 feet; AC 18 (+6 armor, +2 Dex), touch AC 12, flat-footed AC 16; BAB/Grapple +5/+9; greatsword +11 melee (2d6+9, slashing, 19-20 x2), _or_composite longbow +8 ranged (_or +6/+6 ranged)_(1d8+4, piercing, 20 x3, 110 feet x10), _or_ warhammer +9 melee (1d8+6, bludgeoning, 20 x3), _or_ dagger +9 melee (1d4+4, slashing or piercing, 19-20 x2, 10 feet x5), spiked gauntlet +9 melee (1d4+4, piercing, 20 x2); SQ none; AL N; _Feats and Skills_: Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Handle Animal +5, Jump +4, Ride +12, Swim +6, Spot +9; _Equipment_: _+1 greatsword_, _+1 breastplate_, _+1 cloak of resistance_, mighty (+4) masterwork composite longbow, warhammer, dagger, spiked gauntlet, 2 potions of _cure light wounds_, potion of _enlarge person_, potion of _bull's strength_, 20 arrows. He speaks Common.

I would probably also give him a warhorse and appropriate tack and harness. A fighter of his level can easily afford it, and it would offset his lower movement in the outdoors.

For completeness, here is a revised version of Claire:

_Claire_; 5th level Elven Wizard; CR 5; Medium humanoid (elf); Str 10, Int 18, Wis 11, Dex, 17, Con 15, Cha 13; Fort +6 (+8 against enchantments), Reflex +5 (+7 against enchantments), Will +5 (+7 against enchantments); HD 5d4+10; HP 24; Init +7, Move 30 feet; Face/Reach 5 feet/5 feet; AC 14 (+1 natural, +3 Dex), touch AC 13, flat-footed AC 11; BAB/Grapple +2/+2; rapier +2 melee (1d6, piercing, 18-20 x2), _or_ longbow +5 ranged(1d8, piercing, 20 x3, 100 feet x10), _or_ dagger +2 melee (1d4, slashing or piercing, 19-20 x2, 10 feet x5); SQ low-light vision, immune to _sleep_ spells and effects, elf blood, familiar (rat); AL NG; _Feats and Skills_: Alertness (when familiar is within 5 feet), Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Concentration), Concentration +13, Knowledge: Arcana +11, Listen +2 (+4 from Alertness), Search +8, Spellcraft +13, Spot +5 (+7 from Alertness); _Equipment_: rapier, longbow, dagger, _+1 amulet of natural armor_, _+1 cloak of resistance_, _+2 headband of Intellect_, 20 arrows, scroll of _mage armor_, 2 scrolls of _detect magic_, scroll of _obscuring mist_, scroll of _comprehend languages_, scroll of _expeditious retreat_, scroll of _reduce person_. She speaks Common, Elven, Draconian, Sylvan, and Orcish. Spells (save DC 14 + spell level):

0th level: _Acid splash_, _disrupt undead_, _light_, _ray of frost_.
1st level: _Mage armor_, _magic missile x2_, _shocking grasp_.
2nd level: _Melf's acid arrow_, _protection from arrows_, _scorching ray_.
3rd level: _Hold person_, _fireball_.

_Claire's Rat Familiar_; CR -; Tiny magical beast; Str 2, Int 8, Wis 12, Dex, 15, Con 10, Cha 2; Fort +2, Reflex +4, Will +5; HD 1/2(5d4+10); HP 12; Init +2, Move 15 feet, climb 15 feet, swim 15 feet; Face/Reach 2.5 feet/0 feet; AC 17 (+3 natural, +2 size, +2 Dex), touch AC 14, flat-footed AC 15; BAB/Grapple +2/-10; bite +6 melee (1d3-4, bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing, 20 x2); SQ low-light vision, scent, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master; AL NG; _Feats and Skills_: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse, Balance +10, Climb +12, Hide +16, Move Silently +10, Swim +10.


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## monboesen (Dec 14, 2005)

> Yes, what can Narrin do at the end of his charge?
> Assuming Narrin obtains a chance to charge Claire and actually reach her (5 feet away) what are his options?




I wasn't quite sure. My rules fu isn't up to the task. However in any of my games I would have allowed a grapple. Perhaps even combined with both of them ending up prone, aka. a football tackle.

That would definately have changed the outcome. Once Narrin has Claire in a grabble its more or less over. She has virtually no chance of getting out.

I'll play out the combat again rolling all roll once more by hand.

Round One
They make Initiative checks. Claire rolls 12, for a total of 19. Narrin rolls a 7, for a total of 9. Claire opens up with Hold person. Narrin attempts a Will save vs. DC 16, rolling 16, +1 = 17. He succeeds and is unaffected 

Knowing that he needs to get closer Narrin drops his bow and charges 40 ft. forward (0 ft.) and tackles the elf maiden. Claire gets a attack of opportunity as he tries to grapple her. Claire rolls 1! and fails. Narrin rolls 12, +9 attack, +2 charge = 23 and hits easily. They now makes opposed grabble checks. Claire rolls 18, +2 = 20. Narrin rolls 17, +9 = 26 and wins. They are now grappling.

Round Two
Claire is hosed. She can only attempt spells with no somatic components and even then only if she has the material components in hand. She desperately tries to get free with the Escape artist skill the +3 modifier from her dex is better than her grapple check). Opposed checks, Claire 16, +3 = 19, Narrin 11, +9 = 20. She fails.

Narrin has the mage where he wants her and is going for the long slow bearhug. Opposed grapple checks, Claire 2, +2 = 4, Narrin 11, +9 = 20. Claire takes 1, +4 = 5 points of subdual (Narrins option) damage (17 hp left).

Round Three
The pattern repeats. 

Claire. Opposed checks, Claire 8, +3 = 11, Narrin 3, +9 = 12. She fails.

Narrin. Opposed grapple checks, Claire 11, +2 = 13, Narrin 18, +9 = 27. Claire takes 2, +4 = 6 points of subdual damage (11 hp left).

Round Four
The pattern repeats. 

Claire. Opposed checks, Claire 6, +3 = 9, Narrin 10, +9 = 19. She fails.

Narrin. Opposed grapple checks, Claire 15, +2 = 17, Narrin 17, +9 = 26. Claire takes 3, +4 = 7 points of subdual damage (4 hp left).

Round Five
The pattern repeats. 

Claire. Opposed checks, Claire 18, +3 = 21, Narrin 18, +9 = 27. She fails.

Narrin. Opposed grapple checks, Claire 3, +2 = 5, Narrin 15, +9 = 24. Claire takes 1, +4 = 5 points of subdual damage (Unconscious and damaged 1 hp).


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## William Ronald (Dec 14, 2005)

I think that equipment is an important consideration for characters, as the CR system assumes a standard level of equipment.  I would argue that Iron Will is a good feat for fighters, as it improves a weak save.  


Edena, maybe it would be a good idea to rerun the fight between Narrin and Claire with Storm Raven's revised stats.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

(as revised above)

  Claire

  5th level character, 5th level wizard, CR 5, high elven, neutral good, reveres Sehanine Moonbow
  Medium humanoid (Elf), 130 years old, female, 4 feet 6 inches, 80#, blue eyes, long silken black hair (let down); milky skin

  Str 10 (+0), Int 18 (+4), Wis 11 (+0), Dex 17 (+3), Con 15 (+2), Cha 13 (+1)
  Hit points 24, HD 5d4+10, current hit points 24, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
  Move 30 ft, Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
  AC 14 (+0 armor, +0 shield, +3 Dex, +0 size, +1 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 11, flat footed AC 11
  Initiative +7 (+3 Dex, +4 improved initiative)
  Saving throws:  Fort +6 (base +1, Con +2, magical/misc +3), Ref + 5 (base +1, Dex +3, magical/misc +1), Will +5 (base +4, Wis +0, magical/misc +1), all saves +2 vs enchantment (racial +2)
  BAB +2, Grapple +2 (BAB +2, Str +0, size +0, misc +0)
  SR none

  Rapier +2 melee (1d6 18-20x2, piercing), dagger +2 melee (1d4 19-20/x2), longbow +5 ranged (1d8, 20x3, piercing, 100 ft x 10), dagger + 3 ranged (1d4, 19-20x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)

  Special qualities:  low-light vision, immune to sleep spells and effects, elf blood, familiar (rat)
  Feats:  alertness (when familiar is within 5 feet), craft wondrous item, improved initiative, scribe scroll, skill focus - concentration
  Skills:  Concentration +13, knowledge - arcana +11, listen +2 (+4 from alertness), search +8, spellcraft +13, spot +5 (+7 from alertness)
  Languages: common, elven, draconian, sylvan, orcish

  Equipment:  rapier, longbow, dagger, quiver and 20 arrows, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 cloak of resistance, +2 headband of intellect, scroll (mage armor), 2 scrolls (detect magic), scroll (obscuring mist), scroll (comprehend languages), scroll (expeditious retreat), scroll (reduce person)

  Spell Save DC 14 + spell level
   0 level: Acid splash, disrupt undead, light, ray of frost.
  1st level: Mage armor, magic missile x2, shocking grasp.
  2nd level: Melf's acid arrow, protection from arrows, scorching ray.
  3rd level: Hold person, fireball.

  -

  Claire's Rat Familiar

  CR -, Tiny Magical Beast, Familiar

  Str 2 (-4), Int 8 (-1), Wis 12 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 10 (+0), Cha 2 (-4)
  Hit points 12, HD 1/2 (5d4+10), current hit points 12, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
  Move 15 ft, climb 15 ft, swim 15 ft, Face/Reach 2.5 ft/0 ft
  AC 17 (+0 armor, +0 shield, +2 Dex, +2 size, +3 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 14, flat footed AC 15
  Initiative +2
  Saving throws:  Fort +2, Ref + 4, Will +5

  BAB +2, Grapple -10
  SR none

  Bite +6 melee (1d3-4 20/x2, bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing)

  Special qualities:  low-light vision, scent, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master
  Feats:  stealthy, weapon finesse
  Skills:  balance +10, climb +12, hide +16, move silently +10, swim +10

  -

  Narrin

  5th level character, 5th level fighter, CR 5, human, neutral, reveres Tempus and ancient Damaran dieties
  Medium humanoid (Faerunian human), 18 years old, male, 6 feet 5 inches, 250#, grey eyes, shoulder length black hair (let down); skin heavily tanned, some scars

  Str 18 (+4), Int 11 (+0), Wis 13 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 15 (+2), Cha 10 (+0)
  Hit points 42, HD 5d10+10, current hit points 42, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
  Move 20 ft (Base Move 30 feet), Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
  AC 18 (+6 armor, +0 shield, +2 Dex, +0 size, +0 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 12, flat footed AC 16
  Initiative +2 (+2 Dex, +0 magical/misc)
  Saving throws:  Fort +7 (base +4, Con +2, magical/misc +1), Ref + 4 (base +1, Dex +2, magical/misc +1), Will +5 (base +1, Wis +1, magical/misc +3)
  BAB +5, Grapple +9 (BAB +2, Str +4, size +0, magical/misc +3)
  SR none

  Rapier +2 melee (1d6 18-20x2, piercing), dagger +2 melee (1d4 19-20/x2), longbow +5 ranged (1d8, 20x3, piercing, 100 ft x 10), dagger + 3 ranged (1d4, 19-20x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)

  Great sword +11 melee (2d6+8 19-20/x2, slashing), warhammer +9 melee (1d8+6 20/x3, bludgeoning), dagger +9 melee (1d4+4 19-20/x2, slashing or piercing), spiked gauntlet +9 melee (1d4+4 20x2, piercing), composite longbow +8 ranged or +6/+6 ranged (1d8+4 20/x3, 110 ft x 10), dagger +7 ranged (1d4+4 19-20/x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)  

  Special Qualities:  none
  Feats:  iron will, point blank shot, power attack, rapid shot, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon specialization (greatsword)
  Skills:  handle animal +5, jump +4, ride +12, swim +6, spot +9

  Equipment: +1 greatsword, +1 breastplate, +1 cloak of resistance, mighty (+4) masterwork composite longbow, warhammer, dagger, spiked gauntlet, quiver and 20 arrows, 2 potions (cure light wounds), potion (enlarge person), potion (bull's strength), warhorse, tack and harness


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## monboesen (Dec 14, 2005)

> Edena, maybe it would be a good idea to rerun the fight between Narrin and Claire with Storm Raven's revised stats.




Or just take the lessons that are obvious (well, maybe some of this comes from my actual playing experiences with the rules).

1. Fighters suck! At least at anything but fighting (usually in melee). They lack skills, mobility and tactical options. Often they have great trouble getting to the melee where they would shine. The full plate wearing fighters of my campaigns have all been deeply frustrated by their inability to get off those meaty full attacks.

2. It's an enormous advantage for a fighter to start of as something else at 1st level. Ranger and Rogue are both good and popular choices. In fact 3 levels of ranger and/or 4 levels of rogue are a very very good investment for a fighter.

3. The 3ed combat engine is not meant for 1 on 1 battle between pc's and npc's. It's made for small group combats (ideally at least 4 pc's with 1 fighter type, 1 skill type, and two spellcasters.) Single pc's are often lacking the abilities to deal with a situation, they are meant to rely on their comrades in arms.

4. Mages should avoid melee like the plaque. Fighters can easily grapple and crush them to submission (and larger monsters are even better at this) or just kill them outright with a full round attack.

5. It's not possible to build a viable fighter/mage (or ranger/mage) without prestige classes or house rules.

6. Forget any paradigms of what's effective and what's not from earlier editions of D&D. The game has changed a lot with this edition. (for instance two weapon fighting which was THE melee combat option in 2ed is now a only a good option for rangers and rogues).

7. As soon as you don't follow the standard rules for character wealth levels and further allow players some freedom to trade or choose magic equipment any semblance of game balance breaks down. Non-spell casters are hosed in games with lower wealth/rarer magic items.

8. Mages are often better of hindering enemies or buffing friend than casting damaging spells. The most valuable commodity in 3ed combat is actions. Anything that denies/hinders enemy actions (like slow, grease, stinking cloud) is usually more important than doing damage (which you let the fighters do).

9. Without at least one character with high Spot and Listen skill, you will get surprised over and over and over again. This will kill you!

10. Try finding some people to actually play the game with. It’s a much more enjoyable experience to learn the rules by playing than by reading


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## Storm Raven (Dec 14, 2005)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> I think that equipment is an important consideration for characters, as the CR system assumes a standard level of equipment.  I would argue that Iron Will is a good feat for fighters, as it improves a weak save.
> 
> Edena, maybe it would be a good idea to rerun the fight between Narrin and Claire with Storm Raven's revised stats.




I ran an alternative version, and it got ugly for Claire quickly. I used the on-web dice roller at irony.com to generate the random rolls. I assumed that Claire started the combat with _mage armor[_ and _protection from arrows_ active on herself (her total AC is now 18), and that she had shared them both with her familiar, who she is carrying in a pocket in her robe (hence, all familiar based bonuses for her are active). I also assume that she has her rapier in one hand (she only needs one hand to cast spells). I assumed that Narrin had his greatsword in hand (a fighter should usually start combat with his best combat option at the ready). I did not give Narrin a warhorse.

*Start*

Initiative. Claire rolls a 12 + 7 for a total result of 19. Narrin rolls a 20 + 2 for a total result of 22.

*Round 1*

Narrin's action: Narrin charges. Knowing that he gets a +2 to his attack roll for charging, he reduces his BAB by 2 and gains a +4 bonus to damage. He rolls a 16 to attack, for a total of 16 + 11 - 2 + 2 = 27, easily beating Claire's AC of 18. He rolls damage, and gets a result of an 8 on his 2d6 roll. He adds his damage bonus of +9, plus another 4 points for Power Attack, for a total result of 21 points of damage.

Claire's action: Claire's options are limited. She could cast _hold person_ on the defensive, but if she does, and it doesn't work, Narrin will almost certainly kill her with his next attack. She could try an offensive spell, but almost none of her spells do enough damage to put Narrin down, and she would be in the same position as she would if _hold person_ didn't work. Her best option is to double move away from Narrin, hoping to get out of his reach. If she does that, she might survive, as her _protection from arrows_ will likely save her, and she could probably get her scroll of _expeditious retreat_ out and increase her speed enough to get away. Let's assume she tries to stay and fight, and goes with her best option: _hold person_. She casts defensively, needing a DC 18 check, and rolls an 18 + 13 = 31, good enough to cast the spell without drawing an AoO. Narrin needs to beat a DC 17 Will save, tough, but not unreasonable. Unfortunately, he rolls a 2 + 5 for a total of 7 and is frozen in place. Claire uses her remaining move action to move 30 feet away from Narrin.

*Round Two*

Narrin's action: Narrin takes a full-round action to make another save. He rolls a 9 + 5 for a total of 14 and is still frozen.

Claire's action: Claire fires off a _Melf's acid arrow_ at Narrin. His touch AC is now 1 (10 - 4 for being helpless, -5 for having a Dexterity of 0). She only needs to avoid rolling a 1. She rolls a 17 + 5 (for her ranged attack modifier), for a total of 23, more than enough to hit. The acid deals 4 points of damage, and will last for another round. With her move action, Claire retreats another 30 feet.

*Round Three*

Narrin's action: Narrin takes a full round action to make another save. He rolls a 19 + 5 for a total of 24 and breaks free of the magical retraints. He takes a 5 foot step towards Claire.

Claire's action: Narrin is now free of the magical binding, but is still 55 feet away from her. She could try a _scorching ray_, but she is too far away to hit Narrin with it. _Magic missile_ is guaranteed damage, but not as much. She casts _magic missile_, hitting Narrin for 3d4 +3 = 9 points of damage. Narrin also takes additional acid damage from the _Melf's acid arrow_ in the last round, suffering another 6 points of damage.

(_Note_: at this point Claire has 3 hit points left. Narrin has 21 hit points left.)

*Round 4*

Narrin's action: Claire is 85 feet away from him, and Narrin can only charge 40 feet. Narrin can, however, run 80 feet as a full round action, so he does so.

Claire's action: Narrin is now 5 feet away from her, close enough to catch up with her if she casts a spell and moves 30 feet. If she attacks Narrin with _shocking grasp_ it might do enough damage to put him down. If it doesn't, he will almost certainly kill her in the next round. She could double move away, and get out of his charge range, but he could just run and catch up to her, threatening an AoO for future casting attempts and creating a stalemate until she decides to attack. She decides to try the _shocking grasp_ attack. She rolls a 17 and easily makes the DC 16 Concentration check to cast defensively (her total result was 17 + 13 = 30). She steps 5 feet forward to make a touch attack at +5 (+2 BAB + 3 for a target in metal armor). Narrin ran last round, so he has no Dexterity bonus to his AC, for a touch AC of 10. She rolls a 17 for a total attack roll of 22, enough to hit. On 5d6, she deals 19 points of damage. Not enough to kill Narrin.

*Round 5*

Narrin's action: He's been waiting for this. He reaches back and whacks Clarie with his greatsword. He rolls a 13. Adding in his attack bonus of +11, he easily hits with a 24. He deals 5 + 9 = 14 points of damage. Claire is reduced to -11 hit points and dies immediately. Narrin is down to 2 hit points, but still standing. He drinks a potion of _cure light wounds_ and loots Claire's body.

Claire got off 5 spells in the combat, affecting Narrin with each one. I played her somewhat beligerently; really she should have run away as soon as she could. Staying and fighting a slower, but harder hitting opponent is rarely a smart option. If she had rolled just a little better on her damage rolls, it would have swung the other way, and if she had won initiative, it probably would have changed the outcome as well. Note how much can rest on a single die roll - if Narrin had rolls a 12 or better when Claire initially cast _hold person_ on him, she probably would have died that round either when she tried to move away and drew an AoO, or on Narrin's next action in round two.


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## William Ronald (Dec 14, 2005)

Claire's best option would have been to double move away and cast expeditious retreat.  Claire would have to also make a fortitude save because of taking more than 50 percent of her hit points of damage in one round.  (Also, a man walking in heavy armor in the woods should probably make a fair amount of noise , so I think that there is a fair chance that he would have been heard by an opponent.  This is one of the reasons why rangers wear light armor -- plate mail can be a hindrance in the woods.)  Even casting the hold person, making a double move, and casting expeditious retreat from the scroll would have been a much wiser option.

Of course, Claire  would generally win initiative in most versions of this fight.  My philosophy of playing arcane casters is to find ways to avoid melee combat.  Generally, I find that it is important for characters to stay focused at the task at hand and avoid needless distractions.  (As a player, I try to focus on the party's mission.  In this instance, I think avoiding the fight is the best option.)

Many arcane casters also try to obtain a wand of magic missiles, which can be a very effective weapon.

Okay, is there anyone who lives in Edena's general area who would be willing to have him at the gaming table?  I think that actually playing with a group is important, as most combats are between groups of player characters and their opponents.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 14, 2005)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> Claire's best option would have been to double move away and cast expeditious retreat.  Claire would have to also make a fortitude save because of taking more than 50 percent of her hit points of damage in one round.  (Also, a man walking in heavy armor in the woods should probably make a fair amount of noise , so I think that there is a fair chance that he would have been heard by an opponent.  This is one of the reasons why rangers wear light armor -- plate mail can be a hindrance in the woods.)  Even casting the hold person, making a double move, and casting expeditious retreat from the scroll would have been a much wiser option.




Certainly, once Narrin demonstrated he could kill her almost immediately, she should have gotten away from the area as quickly as possible. Which I pointed out in the stuff I talked about in the first round of combat. However, Edena did specify that Claire was somewhat beligerent, so I played her as such.

I think the "half her hit points requires a Fortitude save" thing may be a house rule. It is certainly not listed in the death from massive damage rules.



> _Of course, Claire  would generally win initiative in most versions of this fight.  My philosophy of playing arcane casters is to find ways to avoid melee combat.  Generally, I find that it is important for characters to stay focused at the task at hand and avoid needless distractions.  (As a player, I try to focus on the party's mission.  In this instance, I think avoiding the fight is the best option.)_





She would, but unless she could put Narrin down in the first round, it probably would not have made a huge difference. It might have filled her with false confidence too.



> _Many arcane casters also try to obtain a wand of magic missiles, which can be a very effective weapon._





Not really. A standard _wand of magic missiles_ casts the spell as a 1st level caster. That's not much pop.


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## William Ronald (Dec 14, 2005)

Most of the players I have seen try to obtain a wand of magic missiles of 3rd level or higher caster level.  It is more expensive, but can be a useful item.  Mind you, avoiding the fight is the best option for this character -- especially with several other lives on the line.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

Storm Raven's revised Claire and Narrin (and Claire's familiar)

  (as revised above)

  Claire

  5th level character, 5th level wizard, CR 5, high elven, neutral good, reveres Sehanine Moonbow
  Medium humanoid (Elf), 130 years old, female, 4 feet 6 inches, 80#, blue eyes, long silken black hair (let down); milky skin

  Str 10 (+0), Int 18 (+4), Wis 11 (+0), Dex 17 (+3), Con 15 (+2), Cha 13 (+1)
  Hit points 24, HD 5d4+10, current hit points 24, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
  Move 30 ft, Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
  AC 14 (+0 armor, +0 shield, +3 Dex, +0 size, +1 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 11, flat footed AC 11
  Initiative +7 (+3 Dex, +4 improved initiative)
  Saving throws:  Fort +6 (base +1, Con +2, magical/misc +3), Ref + 5 (base +1, Dex +3, magical/misc +1), Will +5 (base +4, Wis +0, magical/misc +1), all saves +2 vs enchantment (racial +2)
  BAB +2, Grapple +2 (BAB +2, Str +0, size +0, misc +0)
  SR none

  Rapier +2 melee (1d6 18-20x2, piercing), dagger +2 melee (1d4 19-20/x2), longbow +5 ranged (1d8, 20x3, piercing, 100 ft x 10), dagger + 3 ranged (1d4, 19-20x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)

  Special qualities:  low-light vision, immune to sleep spells and effects, elf blood, familiar (rat)
  Feats:  alertness (when familiar is within 5 feet), craft wondrous item, improved initiative, scribe scroll, skill focus - concentration
  Skills:  Concentration +13, knowledge - arcana +11, listen +2 (+4 from alertness), search +8, spellcraft +13, spot +5 (+7 from alertness)
  Languages: common, elven, draconian, sylvan, orcish

  Equipment:  rapier, longbow, dagger, quiver and 20 arrows, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 cloak of resistance, +2 headband of intellect, scroll (mage armor), 2 scrolls (detect magic), scroll (obscuring mist), scroll (comprehend languages), scroll (expeditious retreat), scroll (reduce person)

  Spell Save DC 14 + spell level
   0 level: Acid splash, disrupt undead, light, ray of frost.
  1st level: Mage armor, magic missile x2, shocking grasp.
  2nd level: Melf's acid arrow, protection from arrows, scorching ray.
  3rd level: Hold person, fireball.

  -

  Claire's Rat Familiar

  CR -, Tiny Magical Beast, Familiar

  Str 2 (-4), Int 8 (-1), Wis 12 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 10 (+0), Cha 2 (-4)
  Hit points 12, HD 1/2 (5d4+10), current hit points 12, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
  Move 15 ft, climb 15 ft, swim 15 ft, Face/Reach 2.5 ft/0 ft
  AC 17 (+0 armor, +0 shield, +2 Dex, +2 size, +3 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 14, flat footed AC 15
  Initiative +2
  Saving throws:  Fort +2, Ref + 4, Will +5

  BAB +2, Grapple -10
  SR none

  Bite +6 melee (1d3-4 20/x2, bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing)

  Special qualities:  low-light vision, scent, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master
  Feats:  stealthy, weapon finesse
  Skills:  balance +10, climb +12, hide +16, move silently +10, swim +10

  -

  Narrin

  5th level character, 5th level fighter, CR 5, human, neutral, reveres Tempus and ancient Damaran dieties
  Medium humanoid (Faerunian human), 18 years old, male, 6 feet 5 inches, 250#, grey eyes, shoulder length black hair (let down); skin heavily tanned, some scars

  Str 18 (+4), Int 11 (+0), Wis 13 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 15 (+2), Cha 10 (+0)
  Hit points 42, HD 5d10+10, current hit points 42, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
  Move 20 ft (Base Move 30 feet), Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
  AC 18 (+6 armor, +0 shield, +2 Dex, +0 size, +0 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 12, flat footed AC 16
  Initiative +2 (+2 Dex, +0 magical/misc)
  Saving throws:  Fort +7 (base +4, Con +2, magical/misc +1), Ref + 4 (base +1, Dex +2, magical/misc +1), Will +5 (base +1, Wis +1, magical/misc +3)
  BAB +5, Grapple +9 (BAB +2, Str +4, size +0, magical/misc +3)
  SR none

  Rapier +2 melee (1d6 18-20x2, piercing), dagger +2 melee (1d4 19-20/x2), longbow +5 ranged (1d8, 20x3, piercing, 100 ft x 10), dagger + 3 ranged (1d4, 19-20x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)

  Great sword +11 melee (2d6+8 19-20/x2, slashing), warhammer +9 melee (1d8+6 20/x3, bludgeoning), dagger +9 melee (1d4+4 19-20/x2, slashing or piercing), spiked gauntlet +9 melee (1d4+4 20x2, piercing), composite longbow +8 ranged or +6/+6 ranged (1d8+4 20/x3, 110 ft x 10), dagger +7 ranged (1d4+4 19-20/x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)  

  Special Qualities:  none
  Feats:  iron will, point blank shot, power attack, rapid shot, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon specialization (greatsword)
  Skills:  handle animal +5, jump +4, ride +12, swim +6, spot +9

  Equipment: +1 greatsword, +1 breastplate, +1 cloak of resistance, mighty (+4) masterwork composite longbow, warhammer, dagger, spiked gauntlet, quiver and 20 arrows, 2 potions (cure light wounds), potion (enlarge person), potion (bull's strength), warhorse, tack and harness


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## Storm Raven (Dec 14, 2005)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> Most of the players I have seen try to obtain a wand of magic missiles of 3rd level or higher caster level.  It is more expensive, but can be a useful item.  Mind you, avoiding the fight is the best option for this character -- especially with several other lives on the line.




That is more expensive, and more useful. I wanted to stay with basic items for the example though. I definitely agree that Claire's best option is to avoid Nerrin. _Obscuring mist_ followed by _expeditious retreat_ is a good choice.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 14, 2005)

monboesen said:
			
		

> 3. The 3ed combat engine is not meant for 1 on 1 battle between pc's and npc's. It's made for small group combats (ideally at least 4 pc's with 1 fighter type, 1 skill type, and two spellcasters.) Single pc's are often lacking the abilities to deal with a situation, they are meant to rely on their comrades in arms.




Agreed, and this is particularly true at lower levels.  Once you get into the higher levels (say, 14+), magic items, feats, spells, and class abilities can help to make any particular PC a little more self-sufficient.

Also, the example here, of a low-level fighter versus a low-level wizard, is probably the worst one-on-one matchup for both characters.  The fighter's slow, and has weak saves, while the wizard has a crummy AC and HPs.  This matchup largely depends on who gets the initial drop on the other, or gets the first attack to fall.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

Even with the revised characters, Narrin barely beat Claire.  Claire could have delivered a coup de grace instead of running, too.
  If the reality here is that a beligerent and overly brave mage can actually threaten a fully armed and armored fighter in toe to toe combat (and the above proves she can) then Narrin is going to know this, and take appropriate countermeasures.

  So imagine this:

  The modified Claire and familiar, the modified Narrin.
  Claire rests in the clearing, Narrin spots her.

  Narrin realizes that anyone out here alone in the perilous Damaran wilderness is either very powerful, or very foolish.
  Looking further, he sees this person is an unarmored girl.  It is easy enough to guess she is a wizard or sorceress.  She must be a powerful wizard indeed, if she dares to travel the Damaran wastes alone.

  Narrin does not put on his heavy +1 Breastplate.
  Narrin puts on the Celestial Armor +3 he looted off of a high level adventurer he defeated (and killed) under his dull clothing.
  Narrin has modified his clothing so that it blends in with his surroundings.  He dons them, then takes up his weapons.

  Narrin decides this girl is too dangerous to attempt a parley with.  He will subdue her if possible, kill her if he must, take her items, then return to his (magically concealed) lair.

  Narrin sneaks (moves silently) through the woods towards Claire.
  Claire, being very tired, looked around carefully one time then turned to her rations and water.  Thus, she isn't actively trying to Spot or Listen (except casually to the birdsong.)

  When Narrin gets very close, they must make opposed checks:  his move silently versus her listen.
  He rolls an 18.  She rolls an 8.  Although Narrin has a skill check penalty from his Celestial Armor (it is a small one) and a - 5 penalty for deep undergrowth, he wins the roll.  He is not heard.  He advances right to the edge of the glade, and Claire is not aware of him.
  Claire does not look around for foes, and thus does not gain a Spot check to see Narrin.  She is busy with her meal.

  Now Narrin can choose to charge and grapple, or:
  Narrin can choose to fire his bow, which is nocked and ready, or:
  Narrin can change his mind and attempt to parley, or:
  Narrin can do something else.

  Anyway you cut it, Narrin has the advantage.  He has Surprise (I am guessing) and will make an attack during the Surprise Round before initiative is rolled.

  -

  Once more, Narrin decides to parley.  She is such a beautiful girl, a young girl, and obviously inexperienced.  What she is doing out here, in the middle of the dreadfully dangerous Damaran wilderness, Narrin does not know.  But she is being foolhardy:  perhaps she is just young and naive about the dangers here?
  She didn't do anything to protect herself.  She took no cover, no concealment, left tracks (a Search check easily shows them), and is sitting there in plain sight in the middle of the day.  Could she be that inexperienced?  Or is this a trap?
  But a Spot check and Listen check by Narrin reveal nothing, and Spot and Listen checks on the way down here revealed nothing.  Apparently, this girl is just what she seems to be.

  Narrin steps out of his cover, no weapons in hand.

  A conversation similar to the one posted earlier occurs.  Narrin decides to take this arrogant, naive young lady alive (for her own good, if nothing else;  without his help, she won't live through the night out in this wilderness, much less live long enough to find the healer in his secret retreat.)

  But Narrin did something else, too.  He declared a Ready Action.  If she starts casting a spell, he open fires with his bow.  That means he goes first, if she attempts a Hold Person.  And he is hoping a hard hit from his enormous bow will deter any spell foolery.

  Claire does begin her Hold Person.
  Narrin does fire, and he fires first ...
  They are 40 feet apart at this point.

  What happens?

  (And yes, I will find a gaming group.)


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## The_Gneech (Dec 14, 2005)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> Claire would have to also make a fortitude save because of taking more than 50 percent of her hit points of damage in one round.




Actually, it's 50 hit points from a single attack, not 50% of their hit points in one round.



			
				srd said:
			
		

> If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply.




-The Gneech, practicing rules lawyering so he'll get better at it


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## sniffles (Dec 14, 2005)

monboesen said:
			
		

> Or just take the lessons that are obvious (well, maybe some of this comes from my actual playing experiences with the rules).
> 
> 1. Fighters suck! At least at anything but fighting (usually in melee). They lack skills, mobility and tactical options. Often they have great trouble getting to the melee where they would shine. The full plate wearing fighters of my campaigns have all been deeply frustrated by their inability to get off those meaty full attacks.
> 
> ...



You know, I just have to say I don't agree with points 1 and 2. I've been running a straight fighter for 3 years and I really enjoy playing him. If you don't want to deal with the movement penalties for wearing heavy armor, don't wear heavy armor. My fighter wears chain and has only come near to death once or twice in melee. He moves around a lot. I admit I do miss the lack of general skills, but he's so darned good at what he does that he's fun to play anyway. 

However I do agree complete with point #10.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Even with the revised characters, Narrin barely beat Claire.  Claire could have delivered a coup de grace instead of running, too.




She could have, in round two of my sample combat, but to do so she would have had to stand around near Narrin for the round, and he was going to get to act first. If she stuck around to try to coup de grace him, and he made his save on his action, she is now right next to a hostile enemy who is no longer helpless, and once again needs to move away and hope she can outrun him.



> _If the reality here is that a beligerent and overly brave mage can actually threaten a fully armed and armored fighter in toe to toe combat (and the above proves she can) then Narrin is going to know this, and take appropriate countermeasures._





We kept mostly to your examples, A slightly modified Narrin would be much harder for her - one that is more mobile, or more focused on ranged attacks, or even one who is mounted, which would negate her movement advantage.



> _So imagine this:
> 
> The modified Claire and familiar, the modified Narrin.
> Claire rests in the clearing, Narrin spots her.
> ...





Or just very foolish.



> _Narrin does not put on his heavy +1 Breastplate.
> Narrin puts on the Celestial Armor +3 he looted off of a high level adventurer he defeated (and killed) under his dull clothing.
> Narrin has modified his clothing so that it blends in with his surroundings.  He dons them, then takes up his weapons._





You have just given him equipment and abilities far beyond his level, unbalancing the challenge significantly.

[snip sample combat]



> _But Narrin did something else, too.  He declared a Ready Action.  If she starts casting a spell, he open fires with his bow.  That means he goes first, if she attempts a Hold Person.  And he is hoping a hard hit from his enormous bow will deter any spell foolery._





You cannot ready outside of combat. In any event, his best option is not to use his "enormous bow" unless absolutely necessary - it is a secondary combat option at best for him. He is a high strength melee fighter, he is almost always better off trying to get into melee.

For example, unless he has a good reason to be otherwise, when outdoors, Nerrin should be mounted, probably on a heavy warhorse. He should have a lance too (1d8+4, piercing, 20 x3). When he starts combat with Claire, he can charge probably hitting her and dealing 2d8 + 8 damage plus an attack from his warhorse likely dealing 1d6+4 damage. His horse's movement will be 40 feet, even while he is riding it, so he can out run Claire, even with his heavier armor on.


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## William Ronald (Dec 14, 2005)

I think that celestial armor is a bit much for Narrin to own.  As for the horse, this is allowable.  It might be fair to balance the encounter a bit for Claire, as the horse counts towards Narrin's equipment.  Also, it is rather hard to ride horses in the woods, and the distance in the encounter would probably be a bit larger.  (The horse should be a bit easier to hear or spot.)


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## kenobi65 (Dec 14, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> You know, I just have to say I don't agree with points 1 and 2.




Me, too.  However, I suspect that monboeson's opinion may be colored by one (or both) of two things:
1) A desire to play a PC who is good at skills, and a lack of interest in playing one who isn't (this is what keeps my wife from playing a straight fighter, and is her recurring gripe every time her cleric levels up).
2) A campaign that places a high premium on mobility and skill use.

When it comes to being able to open industrial-sized cans of whup-ass, pretty much nothing beats a straight fighter.  Sniffles is correct, said single-classed fighter is pretty much gonna be a one-trick pony, and not to every player's taste, but it doesn't mean it's not an effective PC type.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 14, 2005)

From the new perspective gained in this thread, has comments and questions on the Rogue:

  (chuckles)  Perhaps Lidda the Rogue is also watching Claire ... and Narrin also.  She is scouting for her friends (Tordek, Jozan, and Mialee) and she (like Narrin) came to scout out the situation concerning this girl.
  (Tordek, Jozan, and Mialee are several hundred feet away, over the crest of another hillock.)

  Lidda has successfully Moved Silently and employed her Hide skills.  Claire and Narrin are not at all aware of her (they are so busily engaged in threatening each other, to pay attention to a third danger ... or to the fourth danger, which Lidda has noticed:  there is a dire bear about 300 feet away, it's moving this way, and the chitter-chatter in the clearing has aroused it's attention.  And dire bears here, in Damara, will attack, kill, and eat humans and elves alike.  The dire bear is not aware of Lidda, however.  Lidda is an accomplished rogue.)

  Now Lidda could attack.  She WON'T attack.  (her job is to gather information and scout for enemies, and that's what she's doing.  She would never attack.)
  But what could she do if she did attack, either Claire or Narrin, or the dire bear?

  Well, let's say she's 11th level, so ...

  She could fire her Light Crossbow.  Damage would be 1-8 19-20/x2.  She'd have Surprise, so she'd act, then initiative would be rolled (she probably would win initiative and be able to fire again.)  
  She has the Rogue's Sneak Attack.  Claire, Narrin, and the dire bear are all Flat-Footed.  They are denied their Dexterity and Dodge bonuses.  So her Sneak Attack would go off.  Indeed, if she then won initiative after the Surprise Round, she could Sneak Attack a second time.
  Damage from her sneak attack is 6d6.  Claire and Narrin are both just within her 30 foot range.  The dire bear, is out of range still (but not for long, at the rate it's advancing.)

  Thus, Lidda could fire at Claire, and inflict 1-8 plus 6d6 points of damage (average 26 to 27 points.)  Lidda's bolts are + 3, so the damage would increase to 29 to 30 points.  On a Critical, average damage would be 1-8 tripled, +9 (+3 tripled), plus 6d6 (average of 45 to 46 points of damage.)
  This may well happen, because Lidda chose the Improved Critical Feat.  Her Critical Threat Range with the Light Crossbow is actually a 17-20.  With a Critical Hit (doing 45 to 46 per hit) and Improved Initiative (Lidda with her extremely augmented dexterity of 27 is likely to beat all of them to initiative, so with her second shot this comes to 90 to 92 points of damage, or 45 to 46 to both Narrin and Claire - Claire's Protection from Arrows would stop 10 points, and Claire would still die.)

  Unless DR 10/magic means that the spell doesn't protect against magical weapons at all, in which case Claire is really dead.

  Lidda listens to the heated conversation between Claire and Narrin, learning about the healer for the first time, knowing full well Narrin came down from the hillock (and undoubtedly has a large stash of treasure there), and wondering which of these two people the bear is going to eat first?

  (If someone has Lidda's template, and would post it to this thread, that would be great.    )

  EDIT:  And yes, I just massively upgunned Narrin.  But he's been defeated enough.  It's his turn to overawe some people.  Just say he got lucky.  Really lucky.  He got his hands on something no character of his level should ever have had.
  He is not here on his horse because he had to move 3,000 feet from the hillock to the glade, and a horse would have made noise and alerted Claire (who then, might have taken cover, or concealment, or prepared a trap, or heaven knows what else.)  Also, there are no roads between the hillock and the glade, so riding would have been hindered (but not halted) by the woodland.
  Had Claire been so foolish as to stay on the distant road, Narrin would have taken his horse.  But Claire knew better:  EVERYONE avoids that road like the plague, since it's an obvious target.


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## William Ronald (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Lidda listens to the heated conversation between Claire and Narrin, learning about the healer for the first time, knowing full well Narrin came down from the hillock (and undoubtedly has a large stash of treasure there), and wondering which of these two people the bear is going to eat first?
> 
> (If someone has Lidda's template, and would post it to this thread, that would be great.    )





Well, the stats for the iconics were posted in an earlier book.  I can't recall the name of it at the moment.  I suspect that Lidda's sympathies would lie with someone seeking a healer.   Possibly, she might use a free action to warn both Narrin and Claire of the bear before heading back to her party.  Or she might want to call for her companions as well at the same time.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 14, 2005)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> I think that celestial armor is a bit much for Narrin to own.  As for the horse, this is allowable.  It might be fair to balance the encounter a bit for Claire, as the horse counts towards Narrin's equipment.  Also, it is rather hard to ride horses in the woods, and the distance in the encounter would probably be a bit larger.  (The horse should be a bit easier to hear or spot.)




The problem for Claire is that giving them both horses doesn't help her. It offsets his more limited mobility for not much gain for her. Once they are mounted, the best she can realistically hope for is that they will be about the same speed when moving.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 14, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> This may well happen, because Lidda chose the Improved Critical Feat.




Technically, Lidda (as a Rogue 11) can't have Improved Critical.

Improved Critical has a prerequisite of BAB +8, which a Rogue 11 does have.  However...Lidda's BAB just reached +8 at 11th level, and she doesn't have a feat slot to take at 11th.  Because her BAB wasn't at least +8 the last time she got a feat (at 9th level), she can't take Improved Critical until she makes 12th level (at which point, she'll get a feat).




			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Unless DR 10/magic means that the spell doesn't protect against magical weapons at all, in which case Claire is really dead.




It doesn't protect against magic weapons at all.  The "descriptor" after the slash in a DR description indicates what sort of weapon bypasses the DR.  So, DR10/magic is bypassed by any magical weapon.

Also, it's worth noting that DR works a little differently in 3.5 versus how it did in 3E.  In 3E, "material" DR (such as silver or cold iron) could always be bypassed by magic weapons; any magic weapon was considered "tougher" than the material (so, a +1 weapon would work just fine vs. a creature with DR10/silver).  In 3.5, even a +5 weapon can't bypass a material DR.  

And, in 3.5, you have some examples of creatures with an "or" DR (e.g., DR10 / silver or magic), which can be bypassed by a weapon with either quality, as well as "and" DRs on the very toughest monsters (e.g., DR10 / silver *and* good), which can only be bypassed by a weapon with *both* qualities.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 14, 2005)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> Well, the stats for the iconics were posted in an earlier book.  I can't recall the name of it at the moment.




"Enemies and Allies" had the 3E stats for at least some of the iconic PCs (at a minimum, the "Prefab Four" of Lidda, Regdar, Mialee, and Jozam) at various (though not every) levels.


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## monboesen (Dec 14, 2005)

> Me, too. However, I suspect that monboeson's opinion may be colored by one (or both) of two things:
> 1) A desire to play a PC who is good at skills, and a lack of interest in playing one who isn't (this is what keeps my wife from playing a straight fighter, and is her recurring gripe every time her cleric levels up).
> 2) A campaign that places a high premium on mobility and skill use.
> 
> When it comes to being able to open industrial-sized cans of whup-ass, pretty much nothing beats a straight fighter. Sniffles is correct, said single-classed fighter is pretty much gonna be a one-trick pony, and not to every player's taste, but it doesn't mean it's not an effective PC type.




Partially true. It likely comes down to campaign preferences. In our campaigns most encounters take place in the wilderness or in urban environments and not very often dungeon or caves. 

This means that there’s either distance and cover/concealment or restrictions on arms and armour (in urban areas). Those are restrictions that hinder power fighters.

Of course a straight level fighter is good at fighting and certainly playable. But most often he will actually be more dangerous (as in doing more damage/round) with those 4 rogue levels than single classed fighters. They cost him 1 point of BAB, 1 point of Fortitude save (roughly), 8 HP and two feats. They give him +2d6 sneak attack (very nice and easy to use), evasion and a better reflex save, uncanny dodge and a butload of skillpoints. 

To me that’s a fantastic deal, I even think that the sneak attack really suits fighters who should be able to take advantage of flanking/flat-footedness. 

Most importantly fighters lack good feat options at higher levels. Their linearity IMO leaves them falling behind the other classes, especially the casters. Even the half-casters (rangers, paladins) gets good use of wands and scrolls. Rogues have this option as well with UMD.

I tend not to view classes in D&D as a rigid thing. You don't go to fighter school and learn to be a fighter, nor do you go to some special ranger school and becomes a ranger. 

To me classes are packages of abilities. So if my character is a Fighter/Adventurer he is going to have fighter/rogue/ranger levels. Because the combination of them fits my view of what an adventurer should be able to do much better than straight fighter levels.

The same way that the character I described earlier on the thread has barbarian levels, though he is not a barbarian at all but rather of noble birth. He is cursed with terrifying homicidal rages. The barbarian class gives the appropriate abilities; I just use another flavor/fluff to explain them.

So IMO if Narrin is a fighter type who has the job of guarding a forested area I would most likely give him some levels of ranger and some of fighter. That way he gets some skills that I would expect someone guarding forested areas should have and still has good solid combat ability.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 14, 2005)

monboesen said:
			
		

> Most importantly fighters lack good feat options at higher levels.




That, I'll grant you, esp. if your campaign is using a limited number of books beyond the Core Rulebooks.


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## painandgreed (Dec 14, 2005)

monboesen said:
			
		

> Of course a straight level fighter is good at fighting and certainly playable. But most often he will actually be more dangerous (as in doing more damage/round) with those 4 rogue levels than single classed fighters. They cost him 1 point of BAB, 1 point of Fortitude save (roughly), 8 HP and two feats. They give him +2d6 sneak attack (very nice and easy to use), evasion and a better reflex save, uncanny dodge and a butload of skillpoints.




Lately I've been having the same thoughts. It seems that either a Fighter 4/Rogue 4 or Fighter 4/Cleric 4 are both better than a Fighter 8 with the loses more than offset by either skills or spells.


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## sniffles (Dec 15, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> That, I'll grant you, esp. if your campaign is using a limited number of books beyond the Core Rulebooks.



I guess I'm lucky my GM allows a few more books. I'm really looking forward to reaching about 15th level, when my fighter/Tempest will be able to move into the Champion of Corellon Larethian prestige class from _Races of the Wild_ - he'll eventually be able to do a _two-weapon Spring Attack while wearing heavy armor!!_


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## MichaelH (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (If someone has Lidda's template, and would post it to this thread, that would be great.    )



The iconic characters were printed in Enemies and Allies at levels 5, 10, and 15.  Here is Lidda at level 10.  I know you said level 11, but 10 is close enough considering our other 2 actors are only level 5.

Edit:  Updated to level 12.



Lidda              CR 12
Female halfling rogue 12
CG Small humanoid
Init +11; Listen +17, Spot +15
Languages Common, halfling, elven, orc
__________________________________________________________
AC 29, touch 20, flat-footed 29, Dodge feat +1 to AC vs. 1 opponent
HP 57 (12 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +16, Will +5; Trap sense +4
__________________________________________________________
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +2 short sword +13/+8 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged +1 composite (Str +1) shortbow +18/+13 (1d4+3/x3)
Base Atk +9; Grp +6
Atk Options point blank shot, precise shot
Special Actions Sneak attack +6d6, improved evasion, improved uncanny dodge
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds, 2 potions of invisibility
___________________________________________________________
Abilities Str 12, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
SQ Halfling traits, trapfinding
Feats Dodge, Improved Critical (shortbows), Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Skills Balance +10, Climb +18, Disable Device +19, Escape Artist +15, Gather Information +6, Hide +32, Jump +20, Listen +17, Move Silently +32, Open Lock +25, Search +17, Spot +15, Tumble +23, Use Magic Device +5
Possessions Combat gear, +2 studded leather armor, +2 darkwood buckler, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +2, short sword +2, composite (Str +1) shortbow +1, boots of elvenkind, greater bracers of archery, eyes of the eagle, gloves of dexterity +4, Heward’s handy haversack, ioun stone (pale blue), vest of escape, adventuring gear, masterwork thieves’ tools


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

Ok (grins evilly, loving a nice bit of utter chaos)  

  Lidda (who I'm going to have to look up, because I don't have the book she's in ... or I'll have to make her, at 12th level ... ick!) is going to, out of the kindness of her heart, call down softly:
  Hey.  Both of you.  There's a dire bear about to attack you.  It's over in those pine trees to the right.

  Unfortunately ... neither Claire nor Narrin have a reasonable reaction to this.  I don't know why.  Perhaps it's the sun.  Perhaps it's the fact they've been threatening each other, and are both scared.    Perhaps it's because both are inexperienced.  Perhaps it's because ... well, it could be anything.

  Claire whirls to face Lidda's position (and mistaking Lidda for someone else) :  You're the one with that party who injured my friends.  Now I will kill you!

  And the same time, ignoring what Claire said altogether:

  Narrin:  I KNEW it was a trap.  You set me up!  A trap, a trap!  Well, you filthy treasure hunters, now you die!

  Lidda, for just a moment, is in shock, her mouth hanging open.  She recovers an instant later, but she no longer has Surprise (although her two self-declared foes are still flat-footed)

  Aroused and angered by all the yelling, the dire bear (I'll have to wing that one too) roars a challenge, which shakes the woodlands.  On it's turn, it will charge.
  The half-orc ranger (5th level, specialized in two-weapon fighting, a Drizzt wannabe, and an ally of one Forrester  ) who was trailing the bear, and who is an ally and friend of Narrin, hears Claire and Narrin shout, the bear's roar, but does not hear Lidda. 
  When he sees the dire bear charge, he will charge, on his turn.  His friend Narrin is in danger from an unknown foe, and from the dire bear.

  Claire and Narrin both do Spot checks for Lidda, as Lidda called down to them.  Both, by some fluke, roll natural 20s, which is an automatic success.  They see her, see precisely where she is, see the crossbow she has aimed at them (which both interpret as an assassination attempt.  They do not know Lidda is not a killer by heart.  They think, in their sudden adrenal surge, that an Artemis Entreri is upon them.  So they REALLY freak out now.)
  Both intend to attack Lidda, on their turn.

  At the top of the far hillock, Hennet the Sorcerer overhears the uproar down below, and with a bellow this hot-headed sorcerer (11th level) charges downslope to help Lidda.  But he is 500 feet away from the combat.
  The others at the top of the hill also charge, charging right into a nest of Damaran vipers (deadly poisonous, death in minutes.)  The vipers gain surprise, and successfully bite Mialee and Tordek.  Tordek starts killing them, after making his save, but Mialee is in real trouble, having rolled a 1 on her save.  Jozan the cleric breaks off the charge to help them both.
   Jozan shouts to Hennet for help, but Hennet decides to go and save Lidda, who is obviously in real trouble.  Hennet shouts back that little Lidda is going to die if he doesn't save her, she's an old and dear friend, and he has to help her.

  (Thus, Mialee, Tordek, and Jozan are out of the fight.)

  Claire, Narrin, Narrin's friend the ranger, the bear, and of course Lidda herself hear the shouting 500 feet away at the top of the hillock.  Lidda realizes her friends are in trouble.  Claire realizes all her enemies have arrived.  Narrin realizes it was a big trap, a huge setup by this elven female and her friends.  Narrin's ranger friend doesn't know who it is, concentrating on protecting Narrin.  The bear doesn't care.  The closest person is the tastiest meal, in it's opinion.

  Initiative is rolled.

  Lidda rolls a 27.
  The dire bear rolls a 23.
  Hennett rolls a 20.
  Narrin's half-orc ranger ally rolls an 18.
  Claire rolls a 15.
  Narrin rolls a 9.

  Then all bedlam breaks out.

  (If anyone has a 5th level ranger to supply, I could use him or her!    )
  (I don't have the Monster Manual 3.5.  Will just have to wing the dire bear.)
  (I am assuming Hennett is 11th level, for the purposes of this combat.)

  If anyone wants to contemplate how this mess would turn out, feel free to describe your thoughts!  
  If it's too much of a mess, don't bother.  It's only hypothetical, in any case.  

  (The point of this combat is to understand the capacity of rangers and sorcerers, character classes I have never played, or really understood.  And, to see what Lidda can do, and would do, in this fiasco.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

Thank you, Michael!  Cheers!
  She's 12th level, and takes Improved Critical.
  She also takes Improved Evasion at 10th level.
  She gains skill points, BAB, Saves, and hit points, of course.


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## MichaelH (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Thank you, Michael!  Cheers!
> She's 12th level, and takes Improved Critical.
> She also takes Improved Evasion at 10th level.
> She gains skill points, BAB, Saves, and hit points, of course.



OK, I will make the changes in a second.  I will also get the ranger, bear and Hennet at 12th level posted tonight.  I can't wait to see how you put it all together.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

Thanks a million, Michael!   
  And thanks for honoring my attempt at humor.

  I will probably handle it as adroitly as I could handle a sword in real life (that is to say, with utter clumsiness and probably whacking myself and everything unfortunate enough to get close.  I'm no Jedi!)

  But I'll try my best.


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## William Ronald (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena, if you look at the standard NPCs in the DMG, you can find a sample 5th level ranger.  (Page 121 of the DMG has a sample gnoll ranger.  You can either use the stats as is, just modifying the stats to reflect that the character is a half orc. If you keep the alignment, perhaps the ranger has his own plans for Narrin.


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## MichaelH (Dec 15, 2005)

As promised, here are the dire bear, Hennet, and Grom the half-orc ranger.


Dire Bear     CR 7
N Large animal
Init +1; Senses Low-light vision, scent; Listen +10, Spot +10
____________________________________________________
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 16
HP 105 (12 HD)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +9; Endurance feat
____________________________________________________
Spd 40 ft. (200 ft. running)
Melee 2 claws +19 (2d4+10) and bite +13 (2d8+5)
Space 10 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +9; Grp +23
Special Actions Improved Grab
____________________________________________________
Abilities Str 31, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feats Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +13

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dire bear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.



Hennet     CR 12
Male human sorcerer 12
CG Medium humanoid
Init +3; Listen +1, Spot +1
Languages Common
________________________________________________
AC 17, touch 15, flat-footed 14
HP 59 (12 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +9
________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee shortspear +5/+0 (1d6-1)
Ranged +1 light crossbow +10 (1d8+1/19-20)
Base Atk +6; Grp +5
Atk Options point blank shot
Special Actions spells
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds
Spells 6/8/8/7/7/6/4 (CL 12th, +4 touch, +8 ranged touch)
	6 – monster summoning VI
	5 – cone of cold (DC 21), hold monster (DC 20)
	4 – dimension door, polymorph, stoneskin
	3 – dispel magic, displacement, lightning bolt (DC 19), protection from energy
	2 – bear’s endurance, invisibility, see invisibility, scorching ray, web (DC 17)
	1 – mage armor, magic missile, protection from evil, shield, true strike
	0 – arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, light,
	mage hand, open/close, read magic
__________________________________________________
Abilities Str 8, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 22
SQ Familiar benefits
Feats Combat Casting, Maximize Spell, Point Blank Shot, Skill Focus (concentration), Spell Focus (evocation), Toughness
Skills Concentration +20 (+24 casting defensively), Knowledge (arcana) +15, Spellcraft +15
Possessions combat gear, amulet of natural armor +2, ring of protection +2, shortspear, +1 light crossbow, bag of holding I, bracers of health +2, cloak of charisma +4, gloves of dexterity +2, wand of haste, spell component pouch, adventuring gear

Bat Familiar (hp 29, AC 22, Int 11, SR 17)



Grom     CR 5
Male half-orc ranger 5
NE Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses Darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +1, Spot +9
Languages Common, orc
_________________________________________________ 
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16
HP 36 (5 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2; Endurance feat
_________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 battle axe +9 (1d8+4/x3) or +1 battle axe +7 (1d8+4/x3) and throwing axe +6 (1d6+1)
Ranged composite (Str +3) longbow +7 (1d8+3/x3) or throwing axe +7 (1d6+3)
Base Atk +5; Grp +8
Atk Options power attack, two weapon fighting
Special Actions Favored enemy (elf +4, animal +2)
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure moderate wounds
Spells Prepared (CL 2nd)
	1 – resist energy
_________________________________________________
Abilities Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6
SQ Orc blood, wild empathy, animal companion (wolf)
Feats Endurance, Power Attack, Quickdraw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting
Skills Hide +10, Knowledge (nature) +9, Move Silently +10, Spot +9, Survival +9 (+11 in above ground natural environments)
Possessions combat gear, chain shirt +2, battle axe +1, 2 throwing axes, composite (Str +3) longbow


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

Remember that the following is meant as a question.  Any comments, corrections, or answers are most welcome.  I'm using an example story (deliberately with tom-foolery and attempts at humor) to try and ask my questions.
  I must cut and paste all the characters to one post, so that they can be looked at by anyone interested.

  - - -


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

Claire

5th level character, 5th level wizard, CR 5, high elven, neutral good, reveres Sehanine Moonbow
Medium humanoid (Elf), 130 years old, female, 4 feet 6 inches, 80#, blue eyes, long silken black hair (let down); milky skin

Str 10 (+0), Int 18 (+4), Wis 11 (+0), Dex 17 (+3), Con 15 (+2), Cha 13 (+1)
Hit points 24, HD 5d4+10, current hit points 24, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
Move 30 ft, Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
AC 14 (+0 armor, +0 shield, +3 Dex, +0 size, +1 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 11, flat footed AC 11
Initiative +7 (+3 Dex, +4 improved initiative)
Saving throws: Fort +6 (base +1, Con +2, magical/misc +3), Ref + 5 (base +1, Dex +3, magical/misc +1), Will +5 (base +4, Wis +0, magical/misc +1), all saves +2 vs enchantment (racial +2)
BAB +2, Grapple +2 (BAB +2, Str +0, size +0, misc +0)
SR none

Rapier +2 melee (1d6 18-20x2, piercing), dagger +2 melee (1d4 19-20/x2), longbow +5 ranged (1d8, 20x3, piercing, 100 ft x 10), dagger + 3 ranged (1d4, 19-20x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)

Special qualities: low-light vision, immune to sleep spells and effects, elf blood, familiar (rat)
Feats: alertness (when familiar is within 5 feet), craft wondrous item, improved initiative, scribe scroll, skill focus - concentration
Skills: Concentration +13, knowledge - arcana +11, listen +2 (+4 from alertness), search +8, spellcraft +13, spot +5 (+7 from alertness)
Languages: common, elven, draconian, sylvan, orcish

Equipment: rapier, longbow, dagger, quiver and 20 arrows, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 cloak of resistance, +2 headband of intellect, scroll (mage armor), 2 scrolls (detect magic), scroll (obscuring mist), scroll (comprehend languages), scroll (expeditious retreat), scroll (reduce person)

Spell Save DC 14 + spell level
0 level: Acid splash, disrupt undead, light, ray of frost.
1st level: Mage armor, magic missile x2, shocking grasp.
2nd level: Melf's acid arrow, protection from arrows, scorching ray.
3rd level: Hold person, fireball.

-

Claire's Rat Familiar

CR -, Tiny Magical Beast, Familiar

Str 2 (-4), Int 8 (-1), Wis 12 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 10 (+0), Cha 2 (-4)
Hit points 12, HD 1/2 (5d4+10), current hit points 12, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
Move 15 ft, climb 15 ft, swim 15 ft, Face/Reach 2.5 ft/0 ft
AC 17 (+0 armor, +0 shield, +2 Dex, +2 size, +3 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 14, flat footed AC 15
Initiative +2
Saving throws: Fort +2, Ref + 4, Will +5

BAB +2, Grapple -10
SR none

Bite +6 melee (1d3-4 20/x2, bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing)

Special qualities: low-light vision, scent, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master
Feats: stealthy, weapon finesse
Skills: balance +10, climb +12, hide +16, move silently +10, swim +10

-

Narrin

5th level character, 5th level fighter, CR 5, human, neutral, reveres Tempus and ancient Damaran dieties
Medium humanoid (Faerunian human), 18 years old, male, 6 feet 5 inches, 250#, grey eyes, shoulder length black hair (let down); skin heavily tanned, some scars

Str 18 (+4), Int 11 (+0), Wis 13 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 15 (+2), Cha 10 (+0)
Hit points 42, HD 5d10+10, current hit points 42, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
Move 30 ft, Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
AC 20 (+5 armor, +0 shield, +2 Dex, +0 size, +0 natural, +3 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 15, flat footed AC 18
Initiative +2 (+2 Dex, +0 magical/misc)
Saving throws: Fort +7 (base +4, Con +2, magical/misc +1), Ref + 4 (base +1, Dex +2, magical/misc +1), Will +5 (base +1, Wis +1, magical/misc +3)
BAB +5, Grapple +9 (BAB +2, Str +4, size +0, magical/misc +3)
SR none

Great sword +11 melee (2d6+8 19-20/x2, slashing), warhammer +9 melee (1d8+6 20/x3, bludgeoning), dagger +9 melee (1d4+4 19-20/x2, slashing or piercing), spiked gauntlet +9 melee (1d4+4 20x2, piercing), composite longbow +8 ranged or +6/+6 ranged (1d8+4 20/x3, 110 ft x 10), dagger +7 ranged (1d4+4 19-20/x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)

Special Qualities: none
Feats: iron will, point blank shot, power attack, rapid shot, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon specialization (greatsword)
Skills: handle animal +5, jump +4, ride +12, swim +6, spot +9

Equipment: +3 celestial armor (flight ability for the day expended), +1 greatsword, +1 cloak of resistance, mighty (+4) masterwork composite longbow, warhammer, dagger, spiked gauntlet, quiver and 20 arrows, 2 potions (cure light wounds), potion (enlarge person), potion (bull's strength), warhorse, tack and harness



Lidda CR 12
Female halfling rogue 12
CG Small humanoid
Init +11; Listen +17, Spot +15
Languages Common, halfling, elven, orc
__________________________________________________ ________
AC 29, touch 20, flat-footed 29, Dodge feat +1 to AC vs. 1 opponent
HP 57 (12 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +16, Will +5; Trap sense +4
__________________________________________________ ________
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +2 short sword +13/+8 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged +1 composite (Str +1) shortbow +18/+13 (1d4+3/x3)
Base Atk +9; Grp +6
Atk Options point blank shot, precise shot
Special Actions Sneak attack +6d6, improved evasion, improved uncanny dodge
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds, 2 potions of invisibility
__________________________________________________ _________
Abilities Str 12, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
SQ Halfling traits, trapfinding
Feats Dodge, Improved Critical (shortbows), Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Skills Balance +10, Climb +18, Disable Device +19, Escape Artist +15, Gather Information +6, Hide +32, Jump +20, Listen +17, Move Silently +32, Open Lock +25, Search +17, Spot +15, Tumble +23, Use Magic Device +5
Possessions Combat gear, +2 studded leather armor, +2 darkwood buckler, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +2, short sword +2, composite (Str +1) shortbow +1, boots of elvenkind, greater bracers of archery, eyes of the eagle, gloves of dexterity +4, Heward?s handy haversack, ioun stone (pale blue), vest of escape, adventuring gear, masterwork thieves? tools




Hennet CR 12
Male human sorcerer 12
CG Medium humanoid
Init +3; Listen +1, Spot +1
Languages Common
________________________________________________
AC 17, touch 15, flat-footed 14
HP 59 (12 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +9
________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee shortspear +5/+0 (1d6-1)
Ranged +1 light crossbow +10 (1d8+1/19-20)
Base Atk +6; Grp +5
Atk Options point blank shot
Special Actions spells
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds
Spells 6/8/8/7/7/6/4 (CL 12th, +4 touch, +8 ranged touch)
6 ? monster summoning VI
5 ? cone of cold (DC 21), hold monster (DC 20)
4 ? dimension door, polymorph, stoneskin
3 ? dispel magic, displacement, lightning bolt (DC 19), protection from energy
2 ? bear?s endurance, invisibility, see invisibility, scorching ray, web (DC 17)
1 ? mage armor, magic missile, protection from evil, shield, true strike
0 ? arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, light,
mage hand, open/close, read magic
__________________________________________________
Abilities Str 8, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 22
SQ Familiar benefits
Feats Combat Casting, Maximize Spell, Point Blank Shot, Skill Focus (concentration), Spell Focus (evocation), Toughness
Skills Concentration +20 (+24 casting defensively), Knowledge (arcana) +15, Spellcraft +15
Possessions combat gear, amulet of natural armor +2, ring of protection +2, shortspear, +1 light crossbow, bag of holding I, bracers of health +2, cloak of charisma +4, gloves of dexterity +2, wand of haste, spell component pouch, adventuring gear

Bat Familiar (hp 29, AC 22, Int 11, SR 17)



Grom CR 5
Male half-orc ranger 5
NE Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses Darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +1, Spot +9
Languages Common, orc
_________________________________________________
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16
HP 36 (5 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2; Endurance feat
_________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 battle axe +9 (1d8+4/x3) or +1 battle axe +7 (1d8+4/x3) and throwing axe +6 (1d6+1)
Ranged composite (Str +3) longbow +7 (1d8+3/x3) or throwing axe +7 (1d6+3)
Base Atk +5; Grp +8
Atk Options power attack, two weapon fighting
Special Actions Favored enemy (elf +4, animal +2)
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure moderate wounds
Spells Prepared (CL 2nd)
1 ? resist energy
_________________________________________________
Abilities Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6
SQ Orc blood, wild empathy, animal companion (wolf)
Feats Endurance, Power Attack, Quickdraw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting
Skills Hide +10, Knowledge (nature) +9, Move Silently +10, Spot +9, Survival +9 (+11 in above ground natural environments)
Possessions combat gear, chain shirt +2, battle axe +1, 2 throwing axes, composite (Str +3) longbow


Dire Bear CR 7
N Large animal
Init +1; Senses Low-light vision, scent; Listen +10, Spot +10
__________________________________________________ __
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 16
HP 105 (12 HD)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +9; Endurance feat
__________________________________________________ __
Spd 40 ft. (200 ft. running)
Melee 2 claws +19 (2d4+10) and bite +13 (2d8+5)
Space 10 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +9; Grp +23
Special Actions Improved Grab
__________________________________________________ __
Abilities Str 31, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feats Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +13

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dire bear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

What has gone before:

  Claire was a member of a party treasure hunting in Damara.  They ran into enemies and defeated them, but their party cleric was killed.  Claire, unwounded, was sent to find a healer known to live in this area, by her wounded and incapacitated party.  A desperate act, by a desperate group.  Claire, now tired herself, sat down in a clearing in the Damaran forest, at midday, and began eating.  And resting.
  Narrin was a brigand who dreamed of restoring ancient Damara, starting with his own fortress and army.  He waylaid treasure hunters, killed them, and stole their items.  He allowed wanderers to pass, if were are not treasure hunters.  Narrin had a hideout at the top of a hillock, magically protected, and a loyal squire to help him.  Narrin also had friends.  One of them, Grom, was in the local area, tracking a dire bear.

  Narrin spotted Claire in the clearing, for it was in a line of sight, 3,000 feet away.  Narrin resolved to go down and kill the person who is obviously a treasure hunter and a very powerful and dangerous wizard.  He sneaked down successfully to the edge of the clearing, ready to shoot and kill the unprotected Claire (not knowing she cast protection from arrows earlier.)
  Meanwhile, the dire bear had caught the scent of Claire, and was heading her way also.
  Grom was following the bear.  Neither the bear nor Grom had sighted Claire or Narrin, and vice versa.  Narrin had not sighted his friend Grom or the bear, and vice versa.

  Meanwhile, Tordek, Mialee, Jozan, Hennett, and Lidda were at the top of another hillock, only 500 feet away from the glade.
  They saw Claire, and Lidda spotted Narrin sneaking through the woods towards her.  While everyone else fell back out of sight, Lidda was sent down to watch events and gather information.
  Lidda stopped at the edge of the clearing, reaching it before Narrin, and had been there ever since.  Neither Narrin or Claire had spotted or heard her.

  Narrin, upon seeing a beautiful, but obviously naive girl sitting unprotected (and taking no protection) in an open clearing in the middle of the dreaded Damaran wilderness, decided to be chivalrous.  He advanced out into the clearing, hands free of weapons, and introduced himself.  
  Claire was very suspicious of this stranger.  She revealed she was here to find the healer, but would not reveal why her party was in Damara in the first place.
  Not buying Claire's false explanation for her party's presence, Narrin guessed she was a treasure hunter, and demanded she accompany him to his hideout.  He explained it was for her own good, since she would not last the night in these woods alone, much less find the healer in his secret retreat.
  Claire, intimidated by the sneering and chivalrous tone of Narrin, decided he was a brigand out to rob her (and probably worse), told him to be off, and when he told her she had no choice in the matter, threatened him.
  After a brief round of threats, both Narrin and Claire prepared to battle each other.

  Just then, Lidda spotted the approaching bear, now only 100 feet off, coming out of heavy  underbrush and pines.
  Lidda, having a kindly heart, whispered down to the two bickering individuals that a dire bear was on the way.
  But Lidda had her crossbow out and loaded, and aimed, in case she had to conduct a sneak attack, and by great misfortune both Claire and Narrin rolled natural 20s on their spot checks, sighting the hidden Lidda and her aimed crossbow. (Otherwise, they would have seen nothing.)

  Narrin decided it was a trap set up by Claire after all (it had looked like a trap to start with.)  He became furious at the 'treasure hunters' and resolved to kill the assassin (Lidda.)
  Claire mistook the voice for someone in the enemy group who had killed her party cleric and wounded her friends.  She whirled, and after spotting Lidda, decided to kill her also (and unfortunately, there had been a halfling in the group that attacked Claire's party.)
  The dire bear decided it was hungry, and would have both Claire and Narrin for dinner.

  Grom, hearing Narrin shouting about traps and assassins, decided to rescue Narrin ... from Claire, whoever else Narrin was screaming about, and the bear.

  At the top of the hill, Mialee, Tordek, Jozan, and Hennett all heard the shouting.  All decided to run down to help Lidda.
  Unfortunately, most of them ran into a nest of Damaran vipers.  The vipers gained surprise, bit Tordek and Mialee, and Jozan was forced to stop to help both of them.  All three of them were knocked out of the battle.
  Hennett, however, continued the charge.  Jozan yelled at him to stop and help them, but Hennett yelled back that he had to save Lidda.
  This alerted everyone else to the presence of the party at the top of the hill (along with Mialee's cry of pain, Tordek's snarling, the sound of combat with the vipers, and Jozan's neutralize poison chanting.)

  Initiative was rolled:

  Lidda goes first.
  Then the dire bear.
  Then Claire.
  Then Grom.
  Then Hennett.
  Then Narrin.


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## sniffles (Dec 15, 2005)

Well, as has been mentioned before, they all have higher-level equipment (and more of it) than I would expect of a typical 5th-level character. You'll get more typical results in your combat if you give them the kind of gear they're likely to have in most games.   

For example, my 10th-level fighter has only +1 chain shirt, +2 masterwork goblin-bane longsword, +1 masterwork shortsword, and compound longbow. That's it. Oh, and a locket that gives him +2 vs. fear and emotion control effects. I don't think of our campaign as particularly low-magic, although it might be somewhat low treasure - you can judge for yourself if you want to read the "Shadows of Greatness" story hour in my sig.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

Will do, Sniffles.  Thank you.
  This isn't a story, of course.  Just an attempt at an example combat, to attempt to decipher this game, while I look for a group.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

Here's my guess:

  (Assumes no hindrance to any skills, sight, or hearing for trees, underbrush, or slopes.)

  - Lidda is no killer, and is reluctant to sneak attack either Claire or Narrin.  Furthermore, sticking around means the survivor of her sneak attack will get to her.   She hears the fight at the top of the hillock;  her party is in trouble.
  Lidda turns and runs back up the gradually slope, moving at quadruple speed.  She moves 80 feet.  At the end of that, she takes her 5 foot step, moving 85 feet (hey, it's 5 more feet towards her friends!)
  - The dire bear, with a speed of 200 feet running, runs 100 feet through the underbrush, then 10 feet into the clearing, stopping at 5 feet from Claire and 35 feet from Narrin.
  - Claire isn't waiting for the bear.  Claire runs after Lidda, determined to kill the halfling who was a member of the group who wounded her friends.  She has a run of 120 feet, so she ends her round next to Lidda, 85 feet up the slope.  Then she does a Spot check and realizes in sudden shock that this is the wrong halfling.

  Claire:  You're not her!
  Lidda:  I don't know you.  Outta my way!

  -  Grom just simply hates elves.  A Spot check shows him that Claire, running up the slope, is indeed an elf.  He does a listen check.  She sounds like an elf too.  That's enough for him.  He changes direction, charging anglewise towards Lidda and Claire.
  He was 100 feet behind the bear, and 200 feet from the clearing.  He now runs at an angle for 120 feet, placing him about 100 feet from Lidda and Claire (actually, it's a triangle:  230 feet long, 85 feet wide, and Grom is creating the third side with his run.  Anyone remember the equation for that one?)
  -  Hennett does an all out run to get to Lidda, seeing she is being overtaken by her foes.  He moves 120 feet straight down the slope, screaming deprecations, yelling threats at everyone approaching Lidda.  (Being a sorcerer, he's going to back up those threats in a real nasty way, too, in a couple of seconds.)
  -  Narrin does a Spot check, and sees Grom.  (He also sees the bear.  He could hardly miss that!)
  Narrin is enboldened by the appearance of Grom, the fact the bear is veering off after the assassin, and in a case of bravado decides to charge after Lidda and Claire himself.
  Narrin's run is also 120 feet.  He charges up the slope, ending his move 5 feet from Lidda, and 10 feet from Claire (Lidda is now flanked, but with Improved Uncanny Dodge, this means nothing for her.)
  Narrin:  Try to shoot me in the back, will you?  Now you die!

  At the end of the round:

  Lidda is 85 feet up the slope, 415 feet from her friends at the top (who are in a fight for their lives against the Damaran vipers.)
  Claire has moved up next to her, on her left side, 5 feet away.
  Narrin has moved up next to her, on her right side, 5 feet away.
  The bear is roughly 85 feet back, in the clearing (which means, it will catch all of them next round, if it keeps coming.  And it IS coming.  It's dinnertime.)
  Grom (who hopes the bear eats the halfling while he kills the elf) is 100 feet from Claire, 105 from Lidda, 110 feet from Narrin, and about 110 feet from the bear.
  Hennett, REALLY yelling threats now - seeing that Lidda has been overtaken - is still 195 feet away, directly upslope.

  (Mialee, Tordek, and Jozan, remember, are out of the fight unless Lidda can reach them, because they have their hands full with about a dozen attacking Damaran vipers, and they are out of line of sight on the far slope of the hillock.)

  Beginning of round 2 ...


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## sniffles (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> -  Grom just simply hates elves.  A Spot check shows him that Claire, running up the slope, is indeed an elf.  He does a listen check.  She sounds like an elf too.  That's enough for him.  He changes direction, charging anglewise towards Lidda and Claire.
> He was 100 feet behind the bear, and 200 feet from the clearing.  He now runs at an angle for 120 feet, placing him about 100 feet from Lidda and Claire (actually, it's a triangle:  230 feet long, 85 feet wide, and Grom is creating the third side with his run.  Anyone remember the equation for that one?)



This looks good. I was just wondering if you recognized that in 3e a ranger's "favored enemy" ability does not _require_ him to attack his favored enemy on sight. A good friend of mine is a long-time 2e player and has a hard time adjusting to the changes to this ability in 3e.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

... round 2.

  Lidda figures she gave adequate warning.  These two maniacs will follow her right to her friends, and she can't allow that.  And Hennett is coming to help.
  It seems the elven girl is going to break off.  But the brigand isn't.
  Lidda turns and fires her bow at him.

  Narrin receives an AOO.  He swings with his greatsword at Lidda.  16.  +11 is 27.  Lidda's AC is 29.  Narrin misses.

  Lidda fires.  18.  +18 is 36.  That hits.  That's a threaten (Lidda has Improved Critical.)  16.  +18 is 34.  That would hit.  It's a critical hit for triple damage.
  1.  Damage is 1 (tripled) +3 (tripled) is 12.  Narrin shrieks as the arrow tears into him.

  Lidda moves (but not out of Narrin's threatened 5 foot range) placing him between her and the approaching bear.

  -

  It is the dire bear's turn.  Lunchtime!
  The bear charges Claire.  It moves it's maximum charge speed of 80 feet up the slope, to 5 feet from her (she was 85 feet away!) and grapples.
  3.  +19.  That hits for the requisite melee touch attack!
  Opposed grapple check.  Bear 10, Claire 6.  Bear +9 BAB, +10 Str, +4 Large.  The bear wins (doesn't even look up Claire's modified roll.)
  Bear moves to pin.  Opposed grapple check.  Bear 19, Claire 15.  Bear wins.  CRUNCH.  SQUASH.  Claire is pinned under the angry dire bear.

  -

  Claire's turn.  Claire screams as she goes down, then wails for help.
  Claire attempts to break the pin.  Opposed grapple rolls.  Claire 4, Bear 2.  Claire +2. Bear +23.  Bear wins!

  -

  Grom sees the bear killing his elf.  The elf was his, the bear was supposed to eat the halfling!  This will not do.
  Grom would rather fight the bear hand to hand, and risk his own neck, than allow that bear to have the joy of killing the elf.
  Grom runs.  He runs the 100 or so feet, taking him right up to the bear, drawing his twin battle axes as he goes.  He calls out to Narrin to help him, to flank the bear.

  -

  Hennett is 195 feet away from the situation at this point.
  Hennett runs his full move of 120 feet, takes his 5 foot step, and ends his turn 70 feet from the melee.

  -

  Narrin's turn.  Narrin doesn't move to help Grom.  Nor does he try to help Claire.  He has an assassin to kill, the assassin who just shot him.  One Lidda.
  5.  +11 is 16.  Needed a 27 to hit.
  Lidda:  (laughing)  Poor little man; dance for me?
  Narrin:  Tempus curse you!  Grom, not the bear!  Kill the assassin!
  Lidda:  Assassin?  Who?  Me? (eyes Narrin darkly.)  Idiot!
  Grom:  The elf is mine.  Get off my elf, you stupid bear!
  Hennett:  Lidda, who should I attack?
  Lidda:  Hit the bear.  Save the elven girl!
  Claire:  HELP!
  Bear:  roars

  Round 3 ...


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

Yes, but as I wrote, Grom the ranger is not only Narrin's friend, but he reveres one Forrester.
  You might not know Forrester:  he is the arch anti-elf.
  Grom just can't abide elves, not even in the cooking pot (they taste horrible.)  Their heads on his trophy posts will do nicely, though.

  Repost (for ease of reference) -

  Claire

5th level character, 5th level wizard, CR 5, high elven, neutral good, reveres Sehanine Moonbow
Medium humanoid (Elf), 130 years old, female, 4 feet 6 inches, 80#, blue eyes, long silken black hair (let down); milky skin

Str 10 (+0), Int 18 (+4), Wis 11 (+0), Dex 17 (+3), Con 15 (+2), Cha 13 (+1)
Hit points 24, HD 5d4+10, current hit points 24, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
Move 30 ft, Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
AC 14 (+0 armor, +0 shield, +3 Dex, +0 size, +1 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 11, flat footed AC 11
Initiative +7 (+3 Dex, +4 improved initiative)
Saving throws: Fort +6 (base +1, Con +2, magical/misc +3), Ref + 5 (base +1, Dex +3, magical/misc +1), Will +5 (base +4, Wis +0, magical/misc +1), all saves +2 vs enchantment (racial +2)
BAB +2, Grapple +2 (BAB +2, Str +0, size +0, misc +0)
SR none

Rapier +2 melee (1d6 18-20x2, piercing), dagger +2 melee (1d4 19-20/x2), longbow +5 ranged (1d8, 20x3, piercing, 100 ft x 10), dagger + 3 ranged (1d4, 19-20x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)

Special qualities: low-light vision, immune to sleep spells and effects, elf blood, familiar (rat)
Feats: alertness (when familiar is within 5 feet), craft wondrous item, improved initiative, scribe scroll, skill focus - concentration
Skills: Concentration +13, knowledge - arcana +11, listen +2 (+4 from alertness), search +8, spellcraft +13, spot +5 (+7 from alertness)
Languages: common, elven, draconian, sylvan, orcish

Equipment: rapier, longbow, dagger, quiver and 20 arrows, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 cloak of resistance, +2 headband of intellect, scroll (mage armor), 2 scrolls (detect magic), scroll (obscuring mist), scroll (comprehend languages), scroll (expeditious retreat), scroll (reduce person)

Spell Save DC 14 + spell level
0 level: Acid splash, disrupt undead, light, ray of frost.
1st level: Mage armor, magic missile x2, shocking grasp.
2nd level: Melf's acid arrow, protection from arrows, scorching ray.
3rd level: Hold person, fireball.

-

Claire's Rat Familiar

CR -, Tiny Magical Beast, Familiar

Str 2 (-4), Int 8 (-1), Wis 12 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 10 (+0), Cha 2 (-4)
Hit points 12, HD 1/2 (5d4+10), current hit points 12, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
Move 15 ft, climb 15 ft, swim 15 ft, Face/Reach 2.5 ft/0 ft
AC 17 (+0 armor, +0 shield, +2 Dex, +2 size, +3 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 14, flat footed AC 15
Initiative +2
Saving throws: Fort +2, Ref + 4, Will +5

BAB +2, Grapple -10
SR none

Bite +6 melee (1d3-4 20/x2, bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing)

Special qualities: low-light vision, scent, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master
Feats: stealthy, weapon finesse
Skills: balance +10, climb +12, hide +16, move silently +10, swim +10

-

Narrin

5th level character, 5th level fighter, CR 5, human, neutral, reveres Tempus and ancient Damaran dieties
Medium humanoid (Faerunian human), 18 years old, male, 6 feet 5 inches, 250#, grey eyes, shoulder length black hair (let down); skin heavily tanned, some scars

Str 18 (+4), Int 11 (+0), Wis 13 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 15 (+2), Cha 10 (+0)
Hit points 42, HD 5d10+10, current hit points 42, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
Move 30 ft, Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
AC 20 (+5 armor, +0 shield, +2 Dex, +0 size, +0 natural, +3 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 15, flat footed AC 18
Initiative +2 (+2 Dex, +0 magical/misc)
Saving throws: Fort +7 (base +4, Con +2, magical/misc +1), Ref + 4 (base +1, Dex +2, magical/misc +1), Will +5 (base +1, Wis +1, magical/misc +3)
BAB +5, Grapple +9 (BAB +2, Str +4, size +0, magical/misc +3)
SR none

Great sword +11 melee (2d6+8 19-20/x2, slashing), warhammer +9 melee (1d8+6 20/x3, bludgeoning), dagger +9 melee (1d4+4 19-20/x2, slashing or piercing), spiked gauntlet +9 melee (1d4+4 20x2, piercing), composite longbow +8 ranged or +6/+6 ranged (1d8+4 20/x3, 110 ft x 10), dagger +7 ranged (1d4+4 19-20/x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)

Special Qualities: none
Feats: iron will, point blank shot, power attack, rapid shot, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon specialization (greatsword)
Skills: handle animal +5, jump +4, ride +12, swim +6, spot +9

Equipment: +3 celestial armor (flight ability for the day expended), +1 greatsword, +1 cloak of resistance, mighty (+4) masterwork composite longbow, warhammer, dagger, spiked gauntlet, quiver and 20 arrows, 2 potions (cure light wounds), potion (enlarge person), potion (bull's strength), warhorse, tack and harness



Lidda CR 12
Female halfling rogue 12
CG Small humanoid
Init +11; Listen +17, Spot +15
Languages Common, halfling, elven, orc
__________________________________________________ ________
AC 29, touch 20, flat-footed 29, Dodge feat +1 to AC vs. 1 opponent
HP 57 (12 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +16, Will +5; Trap sense +4
__________________________________________________ ________
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +2 short sword +13/+8 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged +1 composite (Str +1) shortbow +18/+13 (1d4+3/x3)
Base Atk +9; Grp +6
Atk Options point blank shot, precise shot
Special Actions Sneak attack +6d6, improved evasion, improved uncanny dodge
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds, 2 potions of invisibility
__________________________________________________ _________
Abilities Str 12, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
SQ Halfling traits, trapfinding
Feats Dodge, Improved Critical (shortbows), Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Skills Balance +10, Climb +18, Disable Device +19, Escape Artist +15, Gather Information +6, Hide +32, Jump +20, Listen +17, Move Silently +32, Open Lock +25, Search +17, Spot +15, Tumble +23, Use Magic Device +5
Possessions Combat gear, +2 studded leather armor, +2 darkwood buckler, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +2, short sword +2, composite (Str +1) shortbow +1, boots of elvenkind, greater bracers of archery, eyes of the eagle, gloves of dexterity +4, Heward?s handy haversack, ioun stone (pale blue), vest of escape, adventuring gear, masterwork thieves? tools




Hennet CR 12
Male human sorcerer 12
CG Medium humanoid
Init +3; Listen +1, Spot +1
Languages Common
________________________________________________
AC 17, touch 15, flat-footed 14
HP 59 (12 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +9
________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee shortspear +5/+0 (1d6-1)
Ranged +1 light crossbow +10 (1d8+1/19-20)
Base Atk +6; Grp +5
Atk Options point blank shot
Special Actions spells
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds
Spells 6/8/8/7/7/6/4 (CL 12th, +4 touch, +8 ranged touch)
6 ? monster summoning VI
5 ? cone of cold (DC 21), hold monster (DC 20)
4 ? dimension door, polymorph, stoneskin
3 ? dispel magic, displacement, lightning bolt (DC 19), protection from energy
2 ? bear?s endurance, invisibility, see invisibility, scorching ray, web (DC 17)
1 ? mage armor, magic missile, protection from evil, shield, true strike
0 ? arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, light,
mage hand, open/close, read magic
__________________________________________________
Abilities Str 8, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 22
SQ Familiar benefits
Feats Combat Casting, Maximize Spell, Point Blank Shot, Skill Focus (concentration), Spell Focus (evocation), Toughness
Skills Concentration +20 (+24 casting defensively), Knowledge (arcana) +15, Spellcraft +15
Possessions combat gear, amulet of natural armor +2, ring of protection +2, shortspear, +1 light crossbow, bag of holding I, bracers of health +2, cloak of charisma +4, gloves of dexterity +2, wand of haste, spell component pouch, adventuring gear

Bat Familiar (hp 29, AC 22, Int 11, SR 17)



Grom CR 5
Male half-orc ranger 5
NE Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses Darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +1, Spot +9
Languages Common, orc
_________________________________________________
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16
HP 36 (5 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2; Endurance feat
_________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 battle axe +9 (1d8+4/x3) or +1 battle axe +7 (1d8+4/x3) and throwing axe +6 (1d6+1)
Ranged composite (Str +3) longbow +7 (1d8+3/x3) or throwing axe +7 (1d6+3)
Base Atk +5; Grp +8
Atk Options power attack, two weapon fighting
Special Actions Favored enemy (elf +4, animal +2)
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure moderate wounds
Spells Prepared (CL 2nd)
1 ? resist energy
_________________________________________________
Abilities Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6
SQ Orc blood, wild empathy, animal companion (wolf)
Feats Endurance, Power Attack, Quickdraw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting
Skills Hide +10, Knowledge (nature) +9, Move Silently +10, Spot +9, Survival +9 (+11 in above ground natural environments)
Possessions combat gear, chain shirt +2, battle axe +1, 2 throwing axes, composite (Str +3) longbow


Dire Bear CR 7
N Large animal
Init +1; Senses Low-light vision, scent; Listen +10, Spot +10
__________________________________________________ __
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 16
HP 105 (12 HD)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +9; Endurance feat
__________________________________________________ __
Spd 40 ft. (200 ft. running)
Melee 2 claws +19 (2d4+10) and bite +13 (2d8+5)
Space 10 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +9; Grp +23
Special Actions Improved Grab
__________________________________________________ __
Abilities Str 31, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feats Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +13

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dire bear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

Lidda, seeing that Narrin is so very clumsy and slow compared to her, turns and fires at the bear.  Little Lidda has a kindly heart, and knows the pinned elf has only seconds to live, if someone doesn't stop the bear.
  This does not give the bear an AOO against her.  She is 10 feet away.  And it's busy pinning Claire anyways.
  It does, however, give Narrin an AOO.  He takes it.  He swings:  3.  Misses.  (Lidda simply ducks slightly.)

  Lidda fires:  16.  +18 against AC 17.  Hits.  14.  +13 against AC 17.  Hits.  2 arrows thunk into the bear.  1.  4.  +3 and +3.  11 points of damage.

  -

  The bear claws, and the bear bites.  The bear has lunch.
  2.  15.  16 (bite.)  +19, +19, +13.  Hit, hit, hit.  
  1.  3. (1st claw)  3.  1. (2nd claw)  3 and 2 (bite)  +10, +10, +5.  38 points of damage.
  Claire is killed, her head bitten off.

  -

  Claire has no action, since she is dead.  Maybe Jozan will come down and raise her?

  -

  Grom wails in outrage, but leaves the bear to it's meal.  (wouldn't you, in his place?)
  Grom makes his move, flanking Lidda, and strikes at her:
  16.  +9 is 25.  Grom misses.  Grom is amazed.  How can anyone be as fast and lithe as Lidda?!

  -

  Hennett is within range for his Hold Monster.  He sees the second attack on Lidda, but she asked him to stop the bear.  He heard Claire's shriek, heard it abruptly stopped, and hopes he is not too late (he is too late ...)  
  He draws upon his innate magic and discharges it at the bear, casting Hold Magic.
  The bear must save:    16.  +9 is 25.  That makes the save.
  The bear is outlined in magic, but it shakes it off with an irritated roar, and continues lunch.

  Hennett makes the longest move he can with his move action, moving another 30 feet towards the melee.  That places him 40 feet off.

  -

  Narrin:  Grom, we have the assassin now.  And the bear is helping us.
  Narrin strikes at Lidda again:
  2.  (misses)
  Lidda:  (coldly to Narrin)  I spared you once.  Not again.


----------



## IcyCool (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> - Lidda is no killer, and is reluctant to sneak attack either Claire or Narrin.  Furthermore, sticking around means the survivor of her sneak attack will get to her.   She hears the fight at the top of the hillock;  her party is in trouble.
> Lidda turns and runs back up the gradually slope, moving at quadruple speed.  She moves 80 feet.  At the end of that, she takes her 5 foot step, moving 85 feet (hey, it's 5 more feet towards her friends!)




Lidda cannot take a free 5' step if she has made other movement on her turn.  You may only make a free 5' step if you have made *no other movement* on your turn.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> - Claire isn't waiting for the bear.  Claire runs after Lidda, determined to kill the halfling who was a member of the group who wounded her friends.  She has a run of 120 feet, so she ends her round next to Lidda, 85 feet up the slope.  Then she does a Spot check and realizes in sudden shock that this is the wrong halfling.




I'm not entirely sure, but Claire might have to withdraw to avoid an Attack of Opportunity from the bear.


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## IcyCool (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> It is the dire bear's turn.  Lunchtime!
> The bear charges Claire.  It moves it's maximum charge speed of 80 feet up the slope, to 5 feet from her (she was 85 feet away!) and grapples.
> 3.  +19.  That hits for the requisite melee touch attack!
> Opposed grapple check.  Bear 10, Claire 6.  Bear +9 BAB, +10 Str, +4 Large.  The bear wins (doesn't even look up Claire's modified roll.)
> Bear moves to pin.  Opposed grapple check.  Bear 19, Claire 15.  Bear wins.  CRUNCH.  SQUASH.  Claire is pinned under the angry dire bear.




Just a note, you'll see that a Dire Bear has an ability called *Improved Grab*.  This means that if it hits with a claw attack (doing normal damage for it's claw attack), then it can attempt to start a grapple as a free action.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

Lidda knows these two are too slow to effectively fight (not against her Dex 24 and AC 29.)
  Lidda makes a Full Round Attack with her short composite bow, shooting twice at Narrin.
  This provokes AOO from both Narrin and Grom.

  (this is ironic:  an 11th level rogue beating up a 5th level ranger and a 5th level fighter!  Who would have figured?    )

  Grom:  14.  +9.  23.  Missed.
  Narrin:  18.  +11.  Hit!
  Narrin:  GOT YOU, YOU LITTLE RUNT.
  Damage:  7.  +8.  15 points.  Lidda takes a pretty good scratch.

  Lidda fires:
  18.  5.  +18, +13.  One hit, one miss.  The hit threatens.  2.  No critical.
  Damage:  2 +3 is 5.  Narrin has 17 points of damage on him now.
  Lidda (quietly)  So you did.

  -

  The bear hears Narrin's triumphant shout.  The bear gets more angry yet.  The bear decides that all THREE people standing there will join it for lunchtime.
  The bear and grapples Lidda:
  18 for melee touch attack.  +19.  Yes, the bear successfully grabbed Lidda.  Not even her extreme speed could save her.
  Opposed grapple checks:  Bear 3, Lidda 3.  The bear wins.  
  Bear decides to claw/claw/bite:  10, 5, 16.  +19, +19, +13.  One claw hits Lidda's AC 29.
  Lidda takes 3 + 4 + 10 or 17 damage, is seriously clawed.

  -

  Claire gets no action, since she is dead.

  -

  Grom snickers gleefully.
  Grom:  Not so well off now, are we, halfling girl?  
  Grom draws longbow, turns, fires at Hennett:
  Grom:  Enjoy your dinner, sir Bear.
  16.  +7.  23.  Hits.  (Hennett apparently wasn't expecting the half-orc to whirl and fire at him ...)
  Hennett:  Mialee, Tordek, Jozan, I need help here!
  Damage:  1.  +3.  4 points on Hennett.
  Narrin:  Can't help your halfling friend, can't help yourself.  You treasure hunters are all the same.

  -

  Hennett is very angry, and very frightened for Lidda.  He is going to save Lidda is that is at all possible.
  Hennett uses his Monster Summoning VI, and summons a celestial polar bear, placing it right next to the dire bear.  The celestial polar bear attacks the dire bear immediately.
  The dire bear breaks off it's grapple on Lidda as a free action, to meet this new threat.
  Just in time, for Narrin, seeing Lidda grappled, is striking at her once more.

  -

  Narrin attacks Lidda:
  12:  missed.
  Narrin:  It's just you and me now, assassin.
  Lidda (softly)  That is very true.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

(stops at this point, to read your posts, wait for you to post comments (and then read those) and to rest.)


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## IcyCool (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Lidda knows these two are too slow to effectively fight (not against her Dex 24 and AC 29.)
> Lidda makes a Full Round Attack with her short composite bow, shooting twice at Narrin.
> This provokes AOO from both Narrin and Grom.




If possible, Lidda should always take a 5' step out of the threatened area before making her attacks.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (this is ironic:  an 11th level rogue beating up a 5th level ranger and a 5th level fighter!  Who would have figured?    )




Well, to be fair, Lidda has been rolling super-high, and they've been rolling super-low (16-18 vs. 2-3)



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The bear hears Narrin's triumphant shout.  The bear gets more angry yet.  The bear decides that all THREE people standing there will join it for lunchtime.
> The bear and grapples Lidda:
> 18 for melee touch attack.  +19.  Yes, the bear successfully grabbed Lidda.  Not even her extreme speed could save her.
> Opposed grapple checks:  Bear 3, Lidda 3.  The bear wins.
> ...




Two things here.  The first, I've mentioned before, is that the bear can make a claw attack and if he hits, start a grapple as a free action.  Second, if you are grappling your opponent, you can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon at -4.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Hennett is very angry, and very frightened for Lidda.  He is going to save Lidda is that is at all possible.
> Hennett uses his Monster Summoning VI, and summons a celestial polar bear, placing it right next to the dire bear.  The celestial polar bear attacks the dire bear immediately.
> The dire bear breaks off it's grapple on Lidda as a free action, to meet this new threat.
> Just in time, for Narrin, seeing Lidda grappled, is striking at her once more.




Take a look at the casting time for the Summon Monster spells.  Hennet can start casting it this round, and it will go off right before his turn next round.


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## sniffles (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Yes, but as I wrote, Grom the ranger is not only Narrin's friend, but he reveres one Forrester.
> You might not know Forrester:  he is the arch anti-elf.
> Grom just can't abide elves, not even in the cooking pot (they taste horrible.)  Their heads on his trophy posts will do nicely, though.



Good roleplaying, then! It had just occurred to me that my friend hand trouble with the differences in "favored enemy", so I thought I'd mention it.


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## monboesen (Dec 15, 2005)

Well several things are off. 

For instance if that Dire bear was grappling Claire all Lidda's attacks would have been Sneak attacks. Losing your dex bonus is a consequence of grabbling. She would also face a chance of hitting Claire. Another consequence of grappling.

As already mentioned the Dire bear gets an automatic chance of grappling if it hits with a claw attack. It can take a -20 penalty in order not to be treated as grappled itself.

Casting Summon monster is a full round action, so the polar bear won't arrive until just before Hennets next action.

You don't crit with an 18 even with improved critical and a bow. The bow would have a threat range of 19-20*3. And when you roll damage for a critical you roll all the dice instead of multiplying 1 dice + modifiers by three.

The Dire bear would get AOO against Lidda if it wasn't grappling. It has a reach of 10 ft. 

Anyway this fights ends as soon as Hennet ends it. A good start would be Web to calm things down (and keep people from attacking) followed by Cone of cold (man he has some lousy feats. Both combat casting and Skill focus (concentration) are such bad feats that I have never seen anyone seriously contemplating choosing them).


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## DethStryke (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The bear claws, and the bear bites.  The bear has lunch.
> 2.  15.  16 (bite.)  +19, +19, +13.  Hit, hit, hit.
> 1.  3. (1st claw)  3.  1. (2nd claw)  3 and 2 (bite)  +10, +10, +5.  38 points of damage.
> Claire is killed, her head bitten off.




Now, would a bear attack and continue to attack a target that has gone limp? If one claw was enough to take her down to 0 or below, would the bear continue attacking her or would he then attack Grom, who is right next to it? I am under the impression that the bear would kill everything still kicking and then eat after the coast was clear. This would give Claire a chance to stabilize and possibly not die.

If I were DMing, that is probably the course I would have the bear take (knock her unconscious and bleeding, but not unload on her and eat her while there were plenty of other lively morsels running around) as it is no fun to have a character die when the player has not really done anything wrong or stupid.


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Claire and Narrin both do Spot checks for Lidda, as Lidda called down to them.  Both, by some fluke, roll natural 20s, which is an automatic success.




No it's not. A natural 20 is an automatic hit and an automatic save. But for skills it is merely a 20. Similarly a 1 is an automatic miss and an automatic fail for saves (and runs the risk of kit being damaged) but for a skill it is merely the number one.

This means that is somebody ends up in a situation where they have +20 to hide then they will NEVER be spotted by somebody without a positive modifier (or until the situation changes in the spotee's favour).

This also means a Take 20 is not a guarantee of success it is merely the best that that person can ever hope to acheive (and it takes 20 times as long as a single check [2 minutes for normal actions] and can only be done if there is no *penalty* for failure).

It's also worth noting that a Take 20 is different from a Take 10. A Take 10 is merely an average attempt at a skill which only takes the same amount of time as a normal check but can only be done if the person is in a state of calm (not being attacked, hurried, buffetted by storm winds, etc.)


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

(reads all the posts above)

  Hey, thanks folks.  Thanks for the input here.  
  I'm making mistakes hand over fist.  But I'll get better.  At the beginning of this thread, I could not possibly have attempted the combat above at all.

  How would things have gone if YOU were writing the story, from Round 2 onward?

  How would you have had things go, with Claire, Narrin, Grom, Lidda, Henneth, and the dire bear, if you were running them?  (assume Mialee, Tordek, and Jozan are occupied with the Damaran vipers)

  Let's say that Round 1 (where they all ran a lot, see the previous page of this thread, and the top of this page) has occurred already.  
  We need Round 1 to have occurred as it did, to jury-rig a situation where all the characters would engage in melee.

  Anyone?

  EDIT:  Here is what happened in Round 1, the way I did it:

   - Lidda is no killer, and is reluctant to sneak attack either Claire or Narrin. Furthermore, sticking around means the survivor of her sneak attack will get to her. She hears the fight at the top of the hillock; her party is in trouble.
Lidda turns and runs back up the gradual slope, moving at quadruple speed. She moves 80 feet.
- The dire bear, with a speed of 200 feet running, runs 100 feet through the underbrush, then 10 feet into the clearing, stopping at 5 feet from Claire and 35 feet from Narrin.
- Claire isn't waiting for the bear. Claire runs after Lidda, determined to kill the halfling who was a member of the group who wounded her friends. She has a run of 120 feet, so she ends her round next to Lidda, 80 feet up the slope. Then she does a Spot check and realizes in sudden shock that this is the wrong halfling.

Claire: You're not her!
Lidda: I don't know you. Outta my way!

- Grom just simply hates elves. A Spot check shows him that Claire, running up the slope, is indeed an elf. He does a listen check. She sounds like an elf too. That's enough for him. He changes direction, charging anglewise towards Lidda and Claire.
He was 100 feet behind the bear, and 200 feet from the clearing. He now runs at an angle for 120 feet, placing him about 100 feet from Lidda and Claire (actually, it's a triangle: 230 feet long, 85 feet wide, and Grom is creating the third side with his run. Anyone remember the equation for that one?)
- Hennett does an all out run to get to Lidda, seeing she is being overtaken by her foes. He moves 120 feet straight down the slope, screaming deprecations, yelling threats at everyone approaching Lidda. (Being a sorcerer, he's going to back up those threats in a real nasty way, too, in a couple of seconds.)
- Narrin does a Spot check, and sees Grom. (He also sees the bear. He could hardly miss that!)
Narrin is enboldened by the appearance of Grom, the fact the bear is veering off after the assassin, and in a case of bravado decides to charge after Lidda and Claire himself.
Narrin's run is also 120 feet. He charges up the slope, ending his move 5 feet from Lidda, and 10 feet from Claire (Lidda is now flanked, but with Improved Uncanny Dodge, this means nothing for her.)
Narrin: Try to shoot me in the back, will you? Now you die!

At the end of the round:

Lidda is 80 feet up the slope, 415 feet from her friends at the top (who are in a fight for their lives against the Damaran vipers.)
Claire has moved up next to her, on her left side, 5 feet away.
Narrin has moved up next to her, on her right side, 5 feet away.
The bear is 80 feet back, at the edge of the clearing (which means, it will catch all of them next round, if it keeps coming. And it IS coming. It's lunchtime.)
Grom (who hopes the bear eats the halfling while he kills the elf) is 100 feet from Claire, 105 from Lidda, 110 feet from Narrin, and about 110 feet from the bear.
Hennett, REALLY yelling threats now - seeing that Lidda has been overtaken - is still 195 feet away, directly upslope.

(Mialee, Tordek, and Jozan, remember, are out of the fight unless Lidda can reach them, because they have their hands full with about a dozen attacking Damaran vipers, and they are out of line of sight on the far slope of the hillock.)

Beginning of round 2 ...


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 15, 2005)

I didn't think of that tactic, obviously.
  Take a 5 foot step, then take an action that would normally provoke an AOO.
  A spellcaster's best friend, THAT one!

  -

  With that tactic, Lidda is much more dangerous.  There is no way Narrin or Grom can stop her from filling them full of holes (with her bow shots.)  They can attempt to grapple:  that seems their only reasonable chance against Lidda.

   DethStryke, I totally agree.  The bear would have stretched Claire out with one claw (then Claire would have pretended to be dead, if she was still above 0 hit points) and gone on to attack Grom.
  Grom, after being clawed and bit, would have most decidedly gotten out of there (a Withdrawal action.)  Then he would have tried to decide what to do next.

  -

  Well put!  If the bear grapples and thus loses it's Dex bonus, Lidda would most certainly sneak attack.
  Can she sneak attack twice as a Full Round Action?  She is allowed 2 shots with her shortbow on a Full Round Action.
  What about Lidda's Precise Shot Feat?  Wouldn't that negate her chance of hitting Claire, when she is firing into a grapple?

  -

  Ok, once the dire bear has someone grappled, it will strike at them with it's claw/claw/bite routine (all natural weapons) at -4.
  Or, it could attack with it's claw/claw/bite routine, and the moment one of it's claws hit (the first one, hopefully, for the bear) it would grapple as a free action, then claw/bite at -4 for it's remaining attacks.

  The bear would go for a pin (claw, hit, free action grapple, other claw, bite, then pin next round) but it says in the book that the bear can't claw/claw/bite a pinned opponent.
  Or can it?


----------



## kenobi65 (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Take a 5 foot step, then take an action that would normally provoke an AOO.
> A spellcaster's best friend, THAT one!




Absolutely.  The fighter's just engaged you, Mr. Wizard, in melee?  No prob.  5' step back, and fry him.


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## IcyCool (Dec 15, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Can she sneak attack twice as a Full Round Action?  She is allowed 2 shots with her shortbow on a Full Round Action.




Any attack that Lidda makes which falls under the qualifiers for sneak attack is a sneak attack.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

I withdraw my statement about the usefulness of the DDG Feats.  
  Unless you got all the DDG Feats at 1st level (which is totally illegal, not to mention impossible) forget it.  Being a Generalist in 3.5 doesn't pay.  That's obvious, from this thread and the example combats.  
  For example, Lidda is able to take on both Grom and Narrin because she is specialized.  Specialization pays.  The more specialized, the better.

  Perhaps you could take Generalist Feats as a package (assuming you take the 2 feats gained from flaws, in Unearthed Arcana.) 
  But the logic goes against that too.
  If you are going to specialize, you need to start immediately.  You can't wait until 2nd or 3rd level.

  Following my logic further, multiclassing is a bad idea.  Someone pointed out fighter/mages stank in 3.5.  It seems I must agree with his assessment.
  The exception to this would be classes that stacked with each other, such as rogue/barbarian (?, or wizard/sorcerer?, fighter/ranger?)  Even then, it sounds risky.

  I am told the Prestige Classes are better than the classes.  You get more for your money (experience points) per level in a PrC than with a normal class.
  If so, then everyone should take prestige classes, because the need for specialization requires it.  The more specialized, the better.  The more specialized, the more likely you are to stay alive.
  Thus everyone will be a prestige class, or a prestige class/prestige class.

  Even if you are running a gestalt character, it seems to me the above logic applies (your DM is going to throw harder monsters at you anyways.)

  So no fighter/wizard/clerics here!  No way.  The benefits of being versatile are more than offset by the penalty of non-specialization.  That equals a dead character.

  UNLESS ...

  Unless Generalization comes as a free package at 1st level, before you take your first Feat.
  Of course, Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, all represent Generalizations of a sort, and they are, in effect, free packages.
  Now, the trick is how to find ways to obtain more Generalization skills for free, at the start, before taking Feats or Skills ...

  -

  EDIT:  If Lidda sneak attacks the dire bear, while it is grappling Claire, then:
  Lidda would take her 5 foot step away from Narrin (to avoid drawing AOO from him.)
  Lidda fires:  7.  15.  +13 is 20.  +8 is 23.  Both of these hit the bear.
  Damage is:  

  2.  +3.  +6d6 (5, 3, 2, 4, 1, 2) is 22 points, and:
  3.  +3.  +6d6 (6, 5, 2, 2, 2, 5) is 22 points.
  44 points of damage.

  Ouch.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 16, 2005)

But remember - when you make a ranged attack at someone that's grappling, there's a chance you'll hit someone other than your target.  You're supposed to determine who's actually hit randomly.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

Narrin:  It's just you and me now, assassin.
  Lidda (softly)  That is very true.

  Lidda feints.
  Opposed rolls:  Lidda's Bluff (no ranks, Cha -1) against Narrin's Sense Motive (no ranks, Wis +0)
  Lidda 19, Narrin 10.  Narrin adds his +5 BAB to the check, but it is not enough.
  Lidda pulls off the Bluff, denying Narrin his Dexterity bonus.  She can Sneak Attack him.

  (If Lidda had 18 charisma and Improved Feint, this would be a truly devastating attack.  Which means, high charisma and Improved Feint would probably be good for a Rogue, no?)

  A befuddled Narrin attacks:
  4.  Misses.

  Lidda fires 2 arrows at Narrin.  Both are considered Sneak Attacks.
  3.  9.  +13.  +18.  Modified 16, 27.  Narrin is AC 18 for the +3 celestial armor, and it saves him from one shot (Lidda rolled really badly.)  The other hits.
  Damage:  2.  +3.  +6d6.  (6, 3, 3, 6, 6, 1)  30 points of damage.  Narrin only had 42 to start with.
  Narrin is Clobbered (as per the DMG.)
  Had the other shot hit, Narrin would be dead.

  If Claire was dead (or if Lidda thought she was) this attack would have been unarmed.
  Narrin would have gotten an AOO.  16.  +11 is 27.  Missed.
  Then Lidda rolls a 12 on her attack, +9 BAB.  +1 Str.  22.  That hits.
  Damage 1d2 + 6d6.  2, 4, 3, 1, 5, 4, 2.  +1 Str. 22 points of non-lethal damage.
  Narrin is, once again, Clobbered (as per the DMG.)

  And Lidda would continue until Narrin went down, so she could take him alive and force him to reveal the whereabouts of the healer.  She knew Claire was seeking the healer, after listening to Claire and Narrin argue in the clearing.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

Patryn, is there a Feat that negates this possibility of hitting your friend, if you fire into a grapple?

  Thank you, Icycool.  That means, as my post above indicated, that a high level rogue is really devastating.
  This Sneak Attack ability dwarfs the Backstabbing Abilities of the Rogue in 1E and 2E.  And it is far, far more versatile.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Patryn, is there a Feat that negates this possibility of hitting your friend, if you fire into a grapple?




None that I'm aware of.  

EDIT:  You can also only feint in melee combat.


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## IcyCool (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Lidda fires 2 arrows at Narrin.  Both are considered Sneak Attacks.




Two things wrong here.

1. Feint only works for melee attacks (see Feint on pg. 155 of the PHB)

2. Feing only works for the *next* melee attack.  As in one.

So if Lidda had a dagger out and feinted, then the next round her first dagger attack would benefit from the feint, and her second one wouldn't.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

The above assumed:

  Lidda and Narrin were toe to toe ...
  Narrin had his greatsword out ...
  Lidda had her longbow out ...

  That isn't melee combat?
  If it's because Lidda is using the longbow, then Lidda would most certainly pull out her long sword and use that, if she intended a feint.
  Drawing a weapon is a move action, feinting is a standard action, so she could draw her longsword (drop her shortbow as a free action) and then feint.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The above assumed:
> 
> Lidda and Narrin were toe to toe ...
> Narrin had his greatsword out ...
> ...




Yes, but that isn't the right question.  You're considered to be "in melee" whenever you and an enemy are positioned such that one of you threatens the other.  Narrin has a sword, so he threatens Lidda.  Therefore, Lidda and Nerrin are "in melee" with each other.

If Narrin had a crossbow, they would not be in melee.

However, the limitation on feinting isn't that you must be in melee,* but, rather, "the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."

Since Lidda isn't making a melee attack (unless she decides to thwack Narrin with her bow!), the benefits from feinting don't apply.

* I should have been more precise in my previous post!  Sorry!  



> Drawing a weapon is a move action, feinting is a standard action, so she could draw her longsword (drop her shortbow as a free action) and then feint.




That would work, yes.


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## MichaelH (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> How would things have gone if YOU were writing the story, from Round 2 onward?
> 
> How would you have had things go, with Claire, Narrin, Grom, Lidda, Henneth, and the dire bear, if you were running them?  (assume Mialee, Tordek, and Jozan are occupied with the Damaran vipers)
> 
> ...



I am going to play the battle out, perhaps a few times, just to see what happens.  I am really enjoying this little scenario.  I will start with the setup after round 1, but I am making one change.  Hennet, on his turn in round 1, would never run.  He would Dimension Door next to Lidda.  His mage armor spell would have been cast much earlier, too.  So the round ends with Lidda flanked by Claire and Narrin on the east and west, and Hennet next to her on the north adjacent to all three.  The dire bear is 80 ft. to the south and Grom is 100 feet to the southwest.  I am assuming north is the hillock where Lidda's party is fighting the snakes.  Here is how it looks.

_________H
_______C L N



G________DB

I will post the battle later or tomorrow.


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## MichaelH (Dec 16, 2005)

I ran the battle and it only took a little over 2 rounds.  Here is what happened.

Round 2

-Lidda tells Hennett that the brigand thinks she's an assassin, but the elf is not necessarily hostile.  She then adjusts 5 feet northwest and shoots at Narrin twice.  10+18+1=29 and natural 1, one hit and one miss.  Lidda adds sneak attack damage because Narrin was running and is still denied his Dex bonus to AC until his turn in round 2.  She also adds 1 to damage due to Point Blank Shot.  Narrin takes 25 damage from Lidda's shot and reduces his hit points to 17.  "I hate assassins!"  Lidda is now dodging Narrin.

-The dire bear charges and swings his mighty paw at Claire (11+19+2=32, hit!), delivering 18 damage to Claire who now has only 6 left!  The dire bear swiftly grabs and pulls Claire close to itself to attempt to rip her apart with tooth and claw (Opposed grapple, dire bear 3+23=26, Claire 11+2=13).  Claire moves into the dire bear's square.  Narrin was not close enough to get an AoO.  At this point, the dire bear and Claire are considered to be grappling.

-Claire screams "Help!!!" and delays.

-Grom chuckles when he sees the fate of the elf.  If I can't kill the stupid elf, I will get the peck assassin, he thinks.  He moves 30 feet northeast and fires an arrow at Lidda, but he badly misjudged the range and missed (6+7=13).

-Hennett instinctively tries to save the elf girl.  He backs off about 5 feet to the north and unleashes his potent Hold Monster spell on the dire bear.  The dire bear simply cannot summon the willpower to fight off the spell and "freezes" in place, much to the relief of Claire (DC 20 Will save, 2+9=11).  Hennett figures they might need some speed very shortly and pulls out his wand of haste.

-Narrin steps 5 feet northwest and attempts to cleave Lidda in two, but she sidesteps his blow (15+11=26, Lidda's AC vs. Narrin is 30).  "Curses."

-Claire decides to act and steps 5 feet northwest out of the clutches of the held dire bear.  She tries the same trick, casting Hold Person on Narrin, but his willpower is stronger and the spell fails (16+5=21, DC 17).  Finally, she pulls her rapier just in case.


Round 3

-Lidda decides the dire bear is the bigger threat since the brigand cannot seem to hit her with his slow weapon.  She moves 5 feet northwest and takes two shots.  Both will be sneak attacks with point blank range.  Both easily hit (5+18+1=24 and 3+13+1=17) and deal 24 and 37 (rolled 32 out of a possible 36 for 6d6 sneak attack!) for a total of 61 damage to the dire bear.  The dire bear has 44 hit points left.

-The dire bear tries to break the hold, but its willpower is just not good enough (2+9=11).

-Grom is cursing all that is unholy because the elf was spared a gruesome death.  He moves 30 more feet and takes a shot, but Claire's mage armor protects her (8+7=15, AC 18).

-Hennet moves 5 feet northwest to keep pace with Lidda.  He activates his wand of haste and chooses to haste Lidda, Claire and himself.  He does not want his wand sundered so he stores it away.

-Narrin tells Lidda she will not get away that easily.  He steps 5 feet toward Lidda and nearly slices her in half.  Only Lidda's great reflexes allow her to escape death.  But she takes a big wound for her trouble.  Narrin crits her for 31 damage on two natural 20 rolls!!  "Take that assassin!"

-Claire moves 5 feet northwest and 25 feet north and tries to catch both Narrin and the helpless dire bear in a Fireball.  She succeeds and does 22 fire damage.  The dire bear cannot avoid the flames and takes full damage (9+3=12, DC 17).  It has 22 hit points left.  Narrin tries to dodge the flame but ends up making it worse for himself.  He takes full damage (rolled natural 1 on his save) and is reduced to -5 hit points.  This also left his armor exposed to the fire, but fortunately fire does not hurt metal armor much (half damage from fire reduces the 22 to 11 damage and the 16 hardness reduces this to nothing).


Round 4

-Lidda shoots the dire bear twice (she can't miss except with a natural 1) and deals 20 and 24 damage, killing it.  She decides it might be a good idea to start dodging the half-orc.  She glares at him and nocks an arrow.

-Grom really wants to kill these uppity adventurers for killing his friend Narrin, but he knows he cannot beat all three alone.  Grom runs away into the forest.


They let him go, stabilize Narrin and drag him back up the hill for questioning....


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## Staffan (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I withdraw my statement about the usefulness of the DDG Feats.
> Unless you got all the DDG Feats at 1st level (which is totally illegal, not to mention impossible) forget it.  Being a Generalist in 3.5 doesn't pay.  That's obvious, from this thread and the example combats.



Right. Most fighters tend to take a few of those feats (Improved Trip is *very* good against humanoids, and Power Attack is good if you're going the classic "hit'em hard" route), but not all of them.


> For example, Lidda is able to take on both Grom and Narrin because she is specialized.  Specialization pays.  The more specialized, the better.



Being 12th level against 5th level opponents sure helps too.



> Following my logic further, multiclassing is a bad idea.  Someone pointed out fighter/mages stank in 3.5.  It seems I must agree with his assessment.
> The exception to this would be classes that stacked with each other, such as rogue/barbarian (?, or wizard/sorcerer?, fighter/ranger?)  Even then, it sounds risky.




Generally, classes whose abilities are "linear" work well for multiclassing. This definitely applies to fighters (who just keeps getting BAB and feats), and pretty well to rogues (who will lose out on those cool high-level abilities, but until they get those their progression is linear), barbarians (who will lose out on improved rage and DR), paladins (who miss sub-par spells and better smite), and rangers (who lose out on sub-par spells, a sub-par animal companion, and their fighting style).

Classes with "exponential" abilities will lose out badly when multiclassing. This means all spellcasters (though for paladins and rangers, the spellcasting is such a minor part of their abilities that it doesn't really count), monks (who get tons of special abilities, as well as extra damage and stuff - plus, their base abilities don't play well with other classes), and similar things.



> I am told the Prestige Classes are better than the classes.  You get more for your money (experience points) per level in a PrC than with a normal class.




Ideally, a PrC shouldn't be better than a normal class. It should provide a specialization. However, most PrCs give you more goodies than you give up (especially spellcaster classes, since spellcaster base classes tend not to have much other than spellcasting to give up in the first place). It should be noted that most PrCs carry an opportunity cost, in that they often require you to take some subpar feats or similar things in order to get in (Archmage is a very powerful class, but requires one feat that's essentially wasted - Skill Focus (spellcraft)).

That said, there are some prestige classes that are the very opposite of specialized. In the core rules, these are the Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, and Eldritch Knight. These are basically "patches" for the weakness of multiclassed spellcasters, usually requiring 3-5 levels in two different classes before you can start getting the benefits of almost-full advancement in both.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Dec 16, 2005)

Very cool thread.  



			
				Staffan said:
			
		

> monks (who get tons of special abilities, as well as extra damage and stuff - plus, their base abilities don't play well with other classes), and similar things.




 

Monk 2 or Monk 4 is a very powerful base from which to multiclass into any lightly armored fighter or rogue build.  +3 to all three saves, Wis to AC, free feats, improved speed, improved unarmed damage, and flurry of blows.  Plus, you get better skills than a straight fighter or paladin.


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## monboesen (Dec 16, 2005)

> The exception to this would be classes that stacked with each other, such as rogue/barbarian (?, or wizard/sorcerer?, fighter/ranger?) Even then, it sounds risky.




Here is a 12 level fighter/adventurer. A would be companion of Lidda and Hennet. Bolgor is an example of when multiclassing works, and IMO more viable than a straight fighter. 

He has decent levels in the skills that I think adventuring would require (climb, jump, spot, listen, hide, move silent and balance). Fights pretty well, has decent AC and HP, strong saves + evasion and better than average land speed. Uncanny dodge and Endurance (which lets him sleep in his armor) keeps his defenses up at most times. Mobility and spring attack lets him deal with opponents with reach.

In a pinch he is able to heal himself with his wand (and possibly use other wands/scrolls with spells from the rangers spell list). He is still not able to make it alone, he needs magical support to deal with the threats you can expect at level 12.

Bolgor CR 12
Male human fighter 5/ranger 3/rogue 4
NG medium humanoid
Init +3; Listen +13, Spot +13
Languages Common 
__________________________________________________ ________
AC 25, touch 14, flat-footed 25, Dodge feat +1 to AC vs. 1 opponent
HP 94 (12 HD)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +10
__________________________________________________ ________
Spd 40 ft.
Melee +2 falcion of frost +19/+14/+9 (2d4+11 +1d6 frost/15-20)
Ranged composite (Str +5) longbow +14/+9/+4 (1d8+5/x3)
Base Atk +11; Grp +16
Atk Options power attack, cleave, rapid shot, spring attack
Special Actions Sneak attack +2d6, evasion, improved uncanny dodge, favoured enemy +2 (undead)
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds, 2 potions of invisibility, wand of cure light wounds, wand of entangle
__________________________________________________ _________
Abilities Str 21, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
SQ Human traits, trapfinding
Feats Iron will, Power attack, Track, Cleave, Weapon focus (falcion), Endurance, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon specialist (falcion), Improved critical (falcion), Spring attack
Skills Balance +9, Climb +16, Hide +14, Jump +25, Listen +13, Move Silently +14, Spot +13, Survival +11, Swim +7, Tumble +14
Possessions Combat gear, +3 mithral breastplate, +2 falcion of frost, boots of striding and springing, amulet of health +2, girdle of giant strength +4, gloves of dexterity +2, wand of cure light wounds, wand of entangle, cloak of resistance +3, +1 animated heavy steel shield, ring of protection +1, adventuring gear, composite (Str +5) longbow.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

(is reading your posts)

  Great fight, Michael!  
  This thread is a lot of fun, and it's great reading your writing, folks.  

  I did not realize running denied you your Dex.  I read it, undoubtedly, but missed it anyways.

  Lidda:  I spared you before.  I won't do so now.
  Lidda:  (draws her short sword, makes one attack)  19.  Hits.  Threatens.  11. +11.  Critical.  Damage.  3. 3. +3.  +3.  12 points.

  Narrin (30 points remaining) Enough of this.  I'm getting out of here!  
  Narrin:  (decides to run.  Fatal mistake.)

  Lidda, AOO for Narrin leaving threatened square by running, AOO is a sneak attack because Narrin is denied AC bonus:  17.  Hits.  Damage:  1.  +3.  +6d6 (4, 4, 4, 3, 5, 3)  27 points of damage.  Narrin has 39 on him, and has only 3 hit points left.

  Lidda:  Going somewhere, brigand?

  Lidda:  Takes out her long bow as a move action.  Nocks an arrow as a free action (she can fire twice per round, and since Narrin is running, would get two sneak attacks on him.)

  Lidda:  You had better halt, brigand.  (sends an arrow into a tree in front of him.)

  Narrin:  (stops)  If you kill me, you'll never find out where the healer is!
  Lidda:  (fires a regular shot, seeing her foe is ready to collapse)
  15.  Hits.  4.  +2.  6 points.  Narrin is down, but not dead.
  Lidda:  I never said I was going to kill you.
  Lidda goes up and binds Narrin.  Then she employs the heal skill on him.

  For the record:

  Lidda has a charisma of 8.  Perhaps the artists drew her with that in mind.
  But I think she's pretty.  She's cute, too.


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## IcyCool (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Narrin (30 points remaining) Enough of this.  I'm getting out of here!
> Narrin:  (decides to run.  Fatal mistake.)




Narrin, being a reasonably seasoned adventurer, should probably take the withdraw action here, to avoid the AOO.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Lidda:  Takes out her long bow as a move action.  Nocks an arrow as a free action (she can fire twice per round, and since Narrin is running, would get two sneak attacks on him.)




Since Narrin ran, it is likely that he is farther than 30 ft. away from Lidda.  If you read the sneak attack description, you'll see that you can only use it on ranged attacks within 30ft.  (Barring any spells, like Sniper Shot).


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## sniffles (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena of Neith said:
			
		

> Patryn, is there a Feat that negates this possibility of hitting your friend, if you fire into a grapple?






			
				Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> None that I'm aware of.
> 
> EDIT:  You can also only feint in melee combat.




Would Precise Shot not negate some or all of the penalty of firing into a grapple? I've been perusing the SRD and can't find anything specific to a ranged attack made vs. a grappled opponent.

(Note: Wow, looking at monboesen's 12th level fighter, maybe my 10th level fighter *is* in a low-magic, low-treasure game after all!)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

Narrin's Revenge!

  Narrin is tired of being defeated in all these example combats.  (lol)
  It's Narrin's turn to win.  

  (gives Narrin a +2 greatsword instead of +1 greatsword, Improved Sunder Feat)

  Narrin:  It's just you and me now, assassin!
  Lidda (softly)  That's very true.

  Lidda draws longsword, attacks, hits (drew sword, so only one attack.)  12 points of damage.
  Narrin (scornfully)  Is that the best you can do?

  Narrin:  Sunders.  Opposed rolls:  Narrin 11, Lidda 12.  Narrin is +5 BAB, +4 Str, +4 greatsword (two-handed weapon), +2 for a +2 greatsword, and +4 size.  His modified roll is a 30.  Lidda is +9 BAB, +1 str, +2 for a +2 magical weapon, for a 23.
  Narrin hit's Lidda's +2 short sword.
  Damage:  2d6+9.  6.  6.  +9.  21 points of damage.
  Lidda's +2 short sword is shattered.  (Could someone point out the page in the DMG for hardness and hps of magical items?  I can't find it ... although I'm pretty sure Narrin's attack just did the job.)  (If it's not enough damage, he takes his second attack with the greatsword to inflict a second sunder!)

  Narrin:  Puny weapons and flighty maneuvers do not make a warrior, little girl.

  Lidda:  Withdraws on her move, draws her short bow +1.

  Narrin:  Charges, attacks.  13 +11.  Misses.

  Lidda:  Fires twice.  5.  15.  Hits both times.  7 and 5 points of damage.

  Narrin:  Sunders the +1 short bow.  Narrin 23, Lidda 22.  Narrin hits.  Damage 17 points.  Scratch one +1 crossbow.

  Narrin:  (laughs)  Puny weapons, now flinders.

  Lidda:  (runs)

  Narrin:  AOO:  14.  +11 is 25.  Hits (the Rogue's Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge do not allow her to retain her Dex bonus when running!)  Damage:  13 points.

  Lidda:  runs 80 feet.  (Narrin goes on laughing.)

  Narrin:  You can run, but you can't hide!
  Narrin:  Double move, 60 feet.  Doesn't care to be sneak attacked because he was running and not keeping his guard up.  Draws his bow as he goes.

  Lidda:  runs another 80 feet.

  Narrin:  How far can you run, little girl?  There's nowhere to go.
  Narrin:  fires twice.  No Dex bonus for Lidda because she's running (not even for Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge!)
  Narrin:  18, 15.  +6, +6.  Hits both times.  Damage:  4 (+3) and 5 (+3) is 15 points.  Lidda drops to 29 hit points.

  Narrin:  (grins)  What fine target practice.  Run, little girl!  Run, while you can!


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## MichaelH (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Narrin:  Sunders.  Opposed rolls:  Narrin 11, Lidda 12.  Narrin is +5 BAB, +4 Str, +4 greatsword (two-handed weapon), +2 for a +2 greatsword, and +4 size.  His modified roll is a 30.  Lidda is +9 BAB, +1 str, +2 for a +2 magical weapon, for a 23.
> Narrin hit's Lidda's +2 short sword.
> Damage:  2d6+9.  6.  6.  +9.  21 points of damage.
> Lidda's +2 short sword is shattered.  (Could someone point out the page in the DMG for hardness and hps of magical items?  I can't find it ... although I'm pretty sure Narrin's attack just did the job.)  (If it's not enough damage, he takes his second attack with the greatsword to inflict a second sunder!)



Its on page 222 in the DMG.  Check the DMG errata, however.  This paragraph has been errata'd to say that for each "+" of enhancement the weapon gains 2 to its hardness and 10 to its hit points.  You find the ordinary hardness and hit points on page 158 in the PHB.  Note that Lidda's weapons are small so the numbers in the chart are divided by 2.  Therefore, Lidda's +2 shortsword has a hardness of 9 and 21 hit points (5+4 and 1+20).  Narrin's damage of 21 points is reduced to 12 by the hardness of the +2 short sword, which now has 9 hit points.  Narrin will need one more blow to sunder Lidda's weapon.



> Narrin:  Sunders the +1 short bow.  Narrin 23, Lidda 22.  Narrin hits.  Damage 17 points.  Scratch one +1 crossbow.



Lidda has a +1 composite shortbow.  Its hardness is 4 (2+2) and it has 12 hit points (2+10).  Narrin's 17 damage is reduced to 13 by the hardness.  The shortbow is sundered!


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## monboesen (Dec 16, 2005)

> (Note: Wow, looking at monboesen's 12th level fighter, maybe my 10th level fighter is in a low-magic, low-treasure game after all!)




And Bolgor is build with standard wealth limits. That's 88.000 gp at 12 level. As our groups games don't really follow those he looks mighty impressive to me to


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 16, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Would Precise Shot not negate some or all of the penalty of firing into a grapple?




It might negate a penalty on your attack roll you might be experiencing (say, if one of your allies was in melee with the grapplers), but it would not affect the random target selection.


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## Jim Hague (Dec 16, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> It might negate a penalty on your attack roll you might be experiencing (say, if one of your allies was in melee with the grapplers), but it would not affect the random target selection.




I can't seem to find these random target rules...can you provide a page reference?


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## BobROE (Dec 16, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> But remember - when you make a ranged attack at someone that's grappling, there's a chance you'll hit someone other than your target.  You're supposed to determine who's actually hit randomly.




Where is this rule?  I know I've read it somewhere (so does one of my players), but whenever it comes up we can't find it.


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## MichaelH (Dec 16, 2005)

I ran the battle again with the following changes.  In round 1 Hennett Dimension Door's to the square north of Lidda again.  He is carrying his shortspear.  Narrin now has a +2 greatsword (+12 attack, 2d6+10 damage).  I also changed his feats to Cleave, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with Greatsword.  It started in a similar fashion but took a differant turn quickly.

Round 2

-Lidda decides she should focus on dodging this brigand's greatsword for the time being.  She shifts 5 feet northwest and fires off a couple arrows at Narrin since he is still trying to recover from his run up the hill.  18+18+1=37 hit, and 3+13+1=17 miss.  The arrow does 25 damage and Narrin has 17 left.  "Assassins have no honor."

-The dire bears charges Claire and gives her a taste of his large claw.  19+19+2=40 hit.  This reduces Claire's hit points by 17.  She has 7 left.  The dire bear also tries to grab Claire with that paw.  17+23=40 grapple check.  Claire's grapple is 1+2=3.  No chance.  Claire is dragged into the dire bear's space.  Both are considered grappling.

-Claire screams for help and delays.

-Grom hustles 60 feet toward the battle, pulling his magical battle axe and throwing axe while he moves.  He wants to help Narrin.

-Hennett defensively casts Hold Monster on the dire bear (8+24=32, DC20).  But the dire bear shrugs off the magic with a defiant roar (13+9=22, DC20).  Hennett adjusts 5 feet north.

-Narrin closes 5 feet northwest on Lidda and decides the shortbow must go.  He uses his improved sundering skills and takes a powerful shot (full power attack, -5 to hit, +10 damage).  Narrin's opposed attack roll is 11+12+4+4-5=26.  Lidda's roll is 5+13-4=14.  The bow is hit and takes 31 damage less its hardness of 4, or 27 damage.  It only has 12 hit points and is destroyed.  "My bow.  You will pay for that!"

-Claire struggles against the dire bear and tries to use her small stature to wiggle free.  She uses her escape artistry skills but cannot wriggle free from the dire bear's awesome grip (6+3=9 for Claire, 8+23=31 for the dire bear).


Round 3

-Lidda sees an opening.  She adjusts 5 feet to the southeast and flanks Narrin.  She draws her magical blade and attacks a vital spot (10+13+2=25).  She runs Narrin through for 29 damage.  Narrin only had 17 left, so he dies instantly.

-The dire bear tries to swat Claire with the claw he used to pull her in but cannot do any serious damage to her (natural 1).  However, his other claw plunges into Claire's throat (natural 20, 8+19-4=23, crit) dealing a massive 28 damage.  Claire's current hit point total was 7, so she girgles to death on her own blood.  Poor Claire.  The dire bear turns on Lidda with its powerful bite (18+13=31 hit).  Lidda takes 16 damage and has 41 left.

-Grom charges Hennett (15+9+2=26 hit).  He cuts Hennett for 10 damage, leaving the sorcerer with 49 hit points.

-Hennett notices that he can get Grom and the dire bear with his potent lightning bolt.  He moves 5 feet northwest and casts a maximized lighning bolt due south catching them both.  They take 60 damage or 30 with a successful DC19 reflex save.  Grom rolls 17=6=23 and dodges the full effect, but still takes 30 damage.  He only has 6 hit points left.  The dire bear cannot get out of the way (5+9=14) and takes all 60 points of damage, reducing it to 45.  The powerful electric charge also wreaked havoc on the dire bear's insides, or should have.  But the dire bear's fortitude is too great for it to die just yet (natural 20 on the massive damage save).


Round 4

-Lidda knows she will not last long next to the dire bear.  She skurries 5 feet to the northeast and pulls out her potion of invisibility.  Down it goes and Lidda disappears.  Lidda is now dodging the dire bear.

-The dire bear moves 5 feet north and attacks Grom.  With one powerful claw swat (3+19=22) Grom takes 17 damage.  Since he only had 6 left, Grom is raked across the face and chest and drops dead at the dire bear's feet.  The dire bear swipes his other claw where Lidda had been standing only a moment ago, but does not connect (6+19=25).  But it also tries to bite and connects with the dodging rogue (17+13=30, Lidda's AC is 30 with Dodge.)  Since Lidda is invisible, there is a 50% miss chance here.  On a roll of 01-50 on d100, the attack still misses.  The roll is 59.  Lidda takes 17 damage and is reduced to 24 hit points.

-Hennett fires off another maximized lightning bolt.  The dire bear cannot dodge out of the way (9+9=18, DC19) and takes 60 damage.  This reduces its hit points to -15 and kills it outright.  If it survived it would have to make another DC15 Fort save or die from massive damage.


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## MichaelH (Dec 16, 2005)

BobROE said:
			
		

> Where is this rule?  I know I've read it somewhere (so does one of my players), but whenever it comes up we can't find it.



It's in footnote 3 in the chart on page 151 in the PHB.


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## sniffles (Dec 16, 2005)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> I can't seem to find these random target rules...can you provide a page reference?



I'd like to see a reference too if you get a chance, Patryn (or whomever is looking it up). I know my group rules that if you have Precise Shot, you no longer have any risk of hitting anyone other than whom you intended to hit. I do recall random target rules from 2e, though.

[edit] Whoops! I see Michael was looking it up as I typed. Thanks, Michael!!


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## monboesen (Dec 16, 2005)

> I'd like to see a reference too if you get a chance




http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#favorableandUnfavorableConditions

Look at footnote 3, second table: defender grabbling, attacker not.



> # Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. That defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC


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## BobROE (Dec 16, 2005)

Thanks to both of you, it's come up alot recently (comes with having an archer in the party), and I knew I'd read it somewhere.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 16, 2005)

To respond to both of the above at the same time, it's in the table of defender's AC modifiers for various situations in the Combat chapter.

To quote: 



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Grappling (but attacker is not)	+01	+0 1, 3
> 
> 1 The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.
> ...
> 3 Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. That defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.




You can find more here: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatII.rtf

EDIT: Drat.  Completely beaten to the punch on that one.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

How did Lidda sneak attack Narrin in your second combat, Michael?  (anyone else who can answer that, could you?  Michael's example is at the end of last page.)

  As far as I could tell, Narrin had no negation of his Dexterity.  He had just Charged, but that didn't make a difference.

  Note also that both Claire and Narrin were killed.  Because Claire is dead, nobody among the survivors here knows where her disabled friends are.  Lidda heard her mention the healer, and might find him, but Claire's party will all die now.
  Unless Jozan resurrects Claire, and she will come back, despite being an elf, because her friends are all depending on her.

  Also, Narrin had a squire.  This squire will eventually find Narrin's body, remains, or where he is buried.  And this squire will find Narrin's ranger friends (besides the now dead Grom) and they will begin tracking down those who killed Narrin.
  The fact that Jozan, Mialee, and Tordek had nothing to do with the mess, won't make any difference.  The squire (3rd level ranger) and his friends, will attempt to kill them all.

  Grom had a wolf companion.  It will track down those who killed Narrin on it's own.  If Narrin's Squire can control it, it will accompany him.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

What could have happened:

  Narrin saw Claire in the clearing.
  Lidda saw Claire in the clearing and saw Narrin.
  Narrin sneaked down to the clearing.  Claire did not see him, Lidda did.
  The dire bear approached.  It heard noise from the clearing.  Lidda saw it before Claire and Narrin, and called down to warn them.

  Narrin and Claire put aside their differences briefly, because dire bears are dangerous (lol)
  Both ran out of the clearing, and threw themselves down together in the underbrush and hid (strength in numbers) on the other side of the clearing from the Mysterious Voice that had warned them.

  The dire bear wandered into the clearing.  It sniffed around.  It growled.  But it did not see anyone, so it ... continued on it's way.
  Narrin and Claire stayed down, waiting for the bear to be well away.
  Lidda remained hidden.

  Grom came sneaking through.  Lidda saw him, but Claire and Narrin did not.  Fortunately, Grom did not see Claire.  He did not see anyone.  He continued on after the bear.

  Long minutes later, Claire and Narrin returned to the glade.  Lidda was not there now (they looked for her, but found nothing.)  Lidda was up at Narrin's hideout, scouting the place out.  The squire there did not see or hear her.

  Claire agreed with Narrin that it's too dangerous here, and accompanied Narrin to his hideout, where the squire was ready with refreshments.
  Lidda, having done her job, returned to her companions.  Lidda spotted the nest of Damaran vipers as she returned, so her friends will not blunder into them.

  Nobody fought anyone.  It all ended peaceably.


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## MichaelH (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> How did Lidda sneak attack Narrin in your second combat, Michael?  (anyone else who can answer that, could you?  Michael's example is at the end of last page.)
> 
> As far as I could tell, Narrin had no negation of his Dexterity.  He had just Charged, but that didn't make a difference.



Lidda's first attack was a sneak attack because Narrin had ran the 120 feet in round 1 to be next to her.  Running denies Narrin his dex to AC until his turn in round 2.  Her sneak attack in round 2 was because she was flanking Narrin with Hennett who threatened Narrin with his shortspear.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

I read flanking, thinking that was what rule you were using.
  I can't find where it says flanking negates dexterity.  I tried, too.


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## MichaelH (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Nobody fought anyone.  It all ended peaceably.



It could have happened that way.  But that is not as fun as mauling people with a dire bear and frying them with maximized lightning bolts.


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## MichaelH (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I read flanking, thinking that was what rule you were using.
> I can't find where it says flanking negates dexterity.  I tried, too.



It does not deny Narrin his dex bonus to AC.  But it does allow Lidda to sneak attack.  There are two basic conditions for sneak attack.  The target is denied his dex bonus to AC or the target is flanked.  There are others but these two are the main ones.  This is found in the sneak attack section of the rogue class in the PHB.


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## IcyCool (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I read flanking, thinking that was what rule you were using.
> I can't find where it says flanking negates dexterity.  I tried, too.




It doesn't, but take a look at what allows a Rogue to sneak attack.  You'll find flanking in there.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

The 'Pity the Poor Bear' scenario.

  When the dire bear approached (but could not yet see into the clearing) Narrin and Claire hid at the edges of the clearing, weapons and spells ready.
  When the bear came into the clearing, both Claire and Narrin attacked by surprise.
  Lidda had held her action.  Seeing Claire and Narrin striking the bear by surprise, and figuring it would survive and kill at least one of them, she took off her two sneak attacks with her short bow against the bear.
  And finally Grom, who was following the bear, came rushing into the glade in time to finish off the bear.

  And which point, Grom demands the death of the elf, Claire.
  Narrin sorta likes Claire, but Grom is a friend - and Grom cannot be deterred in this case - so Narrin moves to attack Claire.  And now Claire must fight both Narrin and Grom.
  Lidda decides to save Claire.  She will take her blackjack, and whack Narrin and Grom both into unconsciousness.  Somehow.  Perhaps she should soften them up with sneak attacks first? ...  (Hennett doesn't show up, in this scenario.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 16, 2005)

LOL!  A rogue can sneak attack if:  

  The target is surprised.
  The target is flat-footed.
  The target is grappled.
  The target is running.
  When the rogue flanks her target.
  When the rogue is invisible.
  When the target is blinded, or in the dark and no light source.
  The target is cowering.
  The target is helpless or sleeping.
  The target is stunned.

  DM to party:  It is nighttime.  Lidda is out there, somewhere out there, in the woods.
  Party:  We aren't afraid.
  DM:  Be afraid.  Be very afraid.


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## MichaelH (Dec 16, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> LOL!  A rogue can sneak attack if:
> 
> The target is surprised.
> The target is flat-footed.
> ...



Yeah, rogues can be very dangerous if played properly.  Sneak attack can ring up some nice damage.  Remember, though, that concealment of the target negates sneak attack.  So darkness or fog around the target disallows sneak attack, flanking or not.

Ok, new scenario.  I will take a stab at it.  Leaving Hennett out is a good idea.  A 12th level sorcerer is going to wipe out most everyone on this battlefield.  I will post the battle later.


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## Silveras (Dec 17, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> I know my group rules that if you have Precise Shot, you no longer have any risk of hitting anyone other than whom you intended to hit.




With respect to grappled/grappling creatures, that is one of the benefits of Improved Precise Shot.


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## MichaelH (Dec 17, 2005)

I started the battle with the dire bear in the clearing, Lidda hiding on one side 30 feet from the dire bear, Narrin and Claire on the other side hiding, each 50 feet from the dire bear and 35 feet from each other.  Grom was always 100 feet behind the dire bear, so that is where he starts.  Everyone gets a surprise round on the dire bear.  I am still using Narrin with the +2 greatsword and the improved sunder, power attack, cleave, iron will, weapon focus and specialization feats.

Initiative is:
16 Lidda
14 Narrin
12 Claire
7 Grom
4 Dire Bear

Surprise Round

-Lidda waits for Claire and Narrin to act.  She delays.

-Narrin shoots at the dire bear (19+8=27) hitting it for 10 damage.  The dire bear has 95 hit points left.  It roars with confidence.  Narrin moves 5 feet away.

-Claire decides to Fireball the dire bear while it is in the open.  22 damage or 11 with a DC17 Reflex save.  The dire bear manages to escape the hottest part of the inferno (19+9=28) and only takes 11 damage.  It still has 84 hit points.  Claire moves 5 feet away.

-Lidda will act now.  She is dodging the dire bear.  She fires at the flat-footed dire bear (3+18+1=22) and pierces it for 29 damage!  The dire bear is down to about half its hit points at 55.

-Grom moves 30 feet toward the battle.


Round 1

-Narrin shoots at the dire bear but misses (7+8=15, AC16 flat-footed).  He drops his bow in anger, moves 20 feet toward the dire bear, unsheathing his magical greatsword as he moves.  "I'm gonna carve you up, beasty."

-Claire tries another fire spell, Scorching Ray.  She fires it from her palm and hits it because it is so big (5+5=10, AC10 touch).  15 damage.  The dire bear is down to 40 hit points.  Claire then moves 30 feet, putting Narrin between her and the dire bear.  "I don't have to outrun the bear, just you."

-Lidda fires twice at the still flat-footed bear.  Her first shot sinks in (11+18+1=30) and does 26 damage.  Dire bear only has 14 hit points left.  Her second shot gets it in the eye (natural 20, 9+13+1=23 confirmed crit) finishing it with 32 damage (14-32=-18).  Lidda moves 5 feet toward Narrin, smiling and pulling another arrow.

-Grom moves 60 feet toward the downed dire bear.  He is now 30 feet from Lidda and 50 feet from Narrin.  Narrin is 70 feet from Lidda and 30 feet from Claire.


Round 2

-Narrin turns and charges Claire, startling her.  He puts some extra power into it (power attacks for 2, -2 to hit, +4 damage) and slices her open (15+12+2-2=27) for 21 damage.  Claire only has 24 hit points so she is down to 3!  "I have you now, my dear."

-Claire knows she must take out this brigand with one spell or she is "toast."  She moves back 5 feet and cast her Hold Person spell, believing this big, dumb warrior to be weak against such an attack against his willpower.  She's right because Narrin freezes in place (6+5=11, DC17).  Claire draws her rapier, anticipating a coup de grace.

-Lidda pulls and drinks a potion of invisibility and moves 5 feet toward Narrin.  She is dodging Grom now.

-Grom tries to pinpoint Lidda but cannot (16+9=25 Spot, DC40 to pinpoint).  So he moves 25 feet, pulling his axes along the way, and attacks a random space near where Lidda stood last.  I rolled randomly for the square he would attack and it fell to the correct square.  Better to be lucky than rich, I guess.  Grom swings a wide arc with that magical battle axe but hits nothing (13+9=22).


Round 3

-Narrin keeps trying to resist this cursed Hold Person spell, knowing if he does not he will be receiving that rapier in the gut.  This must have allowed him to tap some inner strength because the spell failed (14+5=19, DC17).  "Not so fast, girly."

-Claire, realizing her plan for the coup de grace will no longer work, casts her Shocking Grasp spell, moves 5 feet toward Narrin, and touches him (11+2+3=16, AC12 touch) for 17 electricity damage.  Narrin was still unscathed in this battle, but now he has 25 hit points left.

-Lidda shoots Grom (9+18+1=28) and severely injures him for 28 damage.  Grom is down to 8 hit points with one shot.  Lidda is now visible.  She backs off 5 feet and shoots him again (13+13+1=27).  Without the sneak attack, it only does 5 damage.  Grom is down to 3 hit points.

-Grom moves in 5 feet and attacks with both weapons, but misses (natural 1, 10+6=16).  "Damn."


Round 4

-Narrin does not want to kill Claire outright, he want to capture her and take her back to his fortress.  He tries to knock her out with his greatsword (10+12-4=18, AC18) and inflicts 16 nonlethal damage.  Claires current hit point total of 3 is less than the nonlethal total of 16 so Claire falls unconscious.  "Yes.  I'll be back for you, lassie."  Narrin moves 20 feet toward Lidda.

-Lidda moves 5 feet away from Grom and shoots him (18+18+1=37) for 7 damage.  Grom is now at -4 hit points and is dying.  Lidda turns and shoots Narrin (15+13=28) for 6 damage.  Narrin drops to 19 hit points.


Round 5

-Narrin is now 50 feet from Lidda so he is out of charging range.  He moves 20 feet, pulling out a potion of cure light wounds as he moves [I allow this as an extension of the move and draw a weapon rule, but I am not sure others would].  He drinks it and cures 7 hit points.  He has 26 hit points now.

-Lidda pulls and drinks her last potion of invisibility, knowing that she needs to sneak one in to down this powerful fighter.  She is dodging Narrin now.  She moves 5 feet in a random direction not toward Narrin.

-Grom gets a stabilization roll.  He stabilizes on a 01-10 on d100.  Rolled 34.  Loses 1 hit point and is down to -5.

Round 6

-Narrin charges where he guesses this little assassin is.  I rolled randomly again and Narrin picks the right square.  Narrin slices the air in front of him (18+12+2=32, but 01-50 indicates a miss, rolled 45).  "Curses."

-Lidda shoots Narrin (10+18+1=29) and does 28 damage.  Narrin only had 26, he drops to -2 hit points and begins dying.

-Grom's stabilization roll is 16.  Close but no cigar.  He drops to -6 hit points.


Grom and Narrin will die if they do not stabilize or are healed (not likely).  Claire is alive but unconscious.  Lidda will rescue her.


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## Hardlock (Dec 17, 2005)

The simple way I remember sneak attack. 

 1. Flatfooted they are dinied there dex bonus.  Most
     of the when there dinied there dex. They are flatfooted. 
 2. Flanked the eastiest way to say it is when when
     two character are on the right and left side of a creature
     or front and back.
 3. Sneak attack does not work against undead, plant, or construct
     and few other types of creature.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 17, 2005)

(comes back from an attempt to buy the Monster Manual 3.5, cursing.  A lot of time and effort wasted.  Did pick up the Complete Adventurer, but the Complete Warrior was not available either.  Couldn't find the hobby shop, either.  Thinks buying online might be the ticket.)

  Ok, Lidda is attempting to stablize Claire (and visible now.)  Narrin and Grom are both down for the count.  They are dying.  Lidda is not stabilizing them.

  Out of the underbrush comes a large arrow.
  Lidda is surprised.  She obtains no dexterity bonus.  Her AC is 20.
  17. +7
  1 hit for a total of 10 points of damage.

  That's the surprise round.
  Initiative:  Lidda 22, squire 15.

  Lidda looks up into the trees, and does a Spot Check.  Sure enough, she spots the squire.

  A howling is heard, as Grom's wolf companion appears in the glade, charges Lidda, and attacks her.  The wolf goes before Lidda or the squire, since it also obtained surprise.
  The wolf grapples, wins, then goes for the pin and wins, preventing Lidda from shooting it.  Lidda is - 4 AC, and -5 for 0 dexterity.  Suddenly, she is only AC 11.
  7.  17.  +7, +5  (Rapid Shot is a useful feat, and a 2nd level ranger gets it, without having to take the Feat at all.  Narrin's squire, a young man very loyal to Narrin and a 3rd level ranger, has arrived.  Lidda did not see or hear him, as he had maxed out on his move silently abilities.)
  2 hits.
  9 damage and 5 damage.  Another 14 points to Lidda, who is reduced to 33 out of 57.

  Lidda:  tries to break the pin, fails.  Does some damage to the wolf, unarmed.

  Squire:  Moves, administers a healing potion to Narrin.

  Lidda:  tries to break the pin, fails.  Does more damage to the wolf, unarmed.

  Squire:  Moves, administers a healing potion to Grom.

  Both Narrin and Grom remain unconscious, however.

  Lidda:  tries yet again to break the pin, fails.  Does more damage to the wolf, unarmed.

  The squire:  Stands and aims his bow at Lidda.

  Squire:  Cease resisting, and I'll call the wolf off.  Otherwise, I'll shoot.

  Lidda:  surrenders.

  (Hmmm ... the animal companion of a druid or ranger is thus very useful, because it forces your foe to take her actions against that animal and not you.  And animals tend to be larger and stronger than humanoids, and thus far better at grappling and pinning.)


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## MichaelH (Dec 17, 2005)

Unfortunately the wolf is only a 2 HD animal that has a Grapple of +2.  It could not pull off what you described.  The wolf's trick is tripping after it bites.  I like the idea of the ranger coming to Narrin's rescue, so I will work up a stat block for him and the wolf, too, then post my version of the second battle.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 17, 2005)

Repost (for ease of reference) -

  Claire

5th level character, 5th level wizard, CR 5, high elven, neutral good, reveres Sehanine Moonbow
Medium humanoid (Elf), 130 years old, female, 4 feet 6 inches, 80#, blue eyes, long silken black hair (let down); milky skin

Str 10 (+0), Int 18 (+4), Wis 11 (+0), Dex 17 (+3), Con 15 (+2), Cha 13 (+1)
Hit points 24, HD 5d4+10, current hit points 24, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
Move 30 ft, Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
AC 14 (+0 armor, +0 shield, +3 Dex, +0 size, +1 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 11, flat footed AC 11
Initiative +7 (+3 Dex, +4 improved initiative)
Saving throws: Fort +6 (base +1, Con +2, magical/misc +3), Ref + 5 (base +1, Dex +3, magical/misc +1), Will +5 (base +4, Wis +0, magical/misc +1), all saves +2 vs enchantment (racial +2)
BAB +2, Grapple +2 (BAB +2, Str +0, size +0, misc +0)
SR none

Rapier +2 melee (1d6 18-20x2, piercing), dagger +2 melee (1d4 19-20/x2), longbow +5 ranged (1d8, 20x3, piercing, 100 ft x 10), dagger + 3 ranged (1d4, 19-20x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)

Special qualities: low-light vision, immune to sleep spells and effects, elf blood, familiar (rat)
Feats: alertness (when familiar is within 5 feet), craft wondrous item, improved initiative, scribe scroll, skill focus - concentration
Skills: Concentration +13, knowledge - arcana +11, listen +2 (+4 from alertness), search +8, spellcraft +13, spot +5 (+7 from alertness)
Languages: common, elven, draconian, sylvan, orcish

Equipment: rapier, longbow, dagger, quiver and 20 arrows, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 cloak of resistance, +2 headband of intellect, scroll (mage armor), 2 scrolls (detect magic), scroll (obscuring mist), scroll (comprehend languages), scroll (expeditious retreat), scroll (reduce person)

Spell Save DC 14 + spell level
0 level: Acid splash, disrupt undead, light, ray of frost.
1st level: Mage armor, magic missile x2, shocking grasp.
2nd level: Melf's acid arrow, protection from arrows, scorching ray.
3rd level: Hold person, fireball.

-

Claire's Rat Familiar

CR -, Tiny Magical Beast, Familiar

Str 2 (-4), Int 8 (-1), Wis 12 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 10 (+0), Cha 2 (-4)
Hit points 12, HD 1/2 (5d4+10), current hit points 12, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
Move 15 ft, climb 15 ft, swim 15 ft, Face/Reach 2.5 ft/0 ft
AC 17 (+0 armor, +0 shield, +2 Dex, +2 size, +3 natural, +0 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 14, flat footed AC 15
Initiative +2
Saving throws: Fort +2, Ref + 4, Will +5

BAB +2, Grapple -10
SR none

Bite +6 melee (1d3-4 20/x2, bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing)

Special qualities: low-light vision, scent, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master
Feats: stealthy, weapon finesse
Skills: balance +10, climb +12, hide +16, move silently +10, swim +10

-

Narrin

5th level character, 5th level fighter, CR 5, human, neutral, reveres Tempus and ancient Damaran dieties
Medium humanoid (Faerunian human), 18 years old, male, 6 feet 5 inches, 250#, grey eyes, shoulder length black hair (let down); skin heavily tanned, some scars

Str 18 (+4), Int 11 (+0), Wis 13 (+1), Dex 15 (+2), Con 15 (+2), Cha 10 (+0)
Hit points 42, HD 5d10+10, current hit points 42, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
Move 30 ft, Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
AC 20 (+5 armor, +0 shield, +2 Dex, +0 size, +0 natural, +3 deflection, +0 other), touch AC 15, flat footed AC 18
Initiative +2 (+2 Dex, +0 magical/misc)
Saving throws: Fort +7 (base +4, Con +2, magical/misc +1), Ref + 4 (base +1, Dex +2, magical/misc +1), Will +5 (base +1, Wis +1, magical/misc +3)
BAB +5, Grapple +9 (BAB +2, Str +4, size +0, magical/misc +3)
SR none

Great sword +11 melee (2d6+8 19-20/x2, slashing), warhammer +9 melee (1d8+6 20/x3, bludgeoning), dagger +9 melee (1d4+4 19-20/x2, slashing or piercing), spiked gauntlet +9 melee (1d4+4 20x2, piercing), composite longbow +8 ranged or +6/+6 ranged (1d8+4 20/x3, 110 ft x 10), dagger +7 ranged (1d4+4 19-20/x2, piercing, 10 ft x 5)

Special Qualities: none
Feats: iron will, point blank shot, power attack, rapid shot, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon specialization (greatsword)
Skills: handle animal +5, jump +4, ride +12, swim +6, spot +9

Equipment: +3 celestial armor (flight ability for the day expended), +1 greatsword, +1 cloak of resistance, mighty (+4) masterwork composite longbow, warhammer, dagger, spiked gauntlet, quiver and 20 arrows, 2 potions (cure light wounds), potion (enlarge person), potion (bull's strength), warhorse, tack and harness



Lidda CR 12
Female halfling rogue 12
CG Small humanoid
Init +11; Listen +17, Spot +15
Languages Common, halfling, elven, orc
__________________________________________________ ________
AC 29, touch 20, flat-footed 29, Dodge feat +1 to AC vs. 1 opponent
HP 57 (12 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +16, Will +5; Trap sense +4
__________________________________________________ ________
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +2 short sword +13/+8 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged +1 composite (Str +1) shortbow +18/+13 (1d4+3/x3)
Base Atk +9; Grp +6
Atk Options point blank shot, precise shot
Special Actions Sneak attack +6d6, improved evasion, improved uncanny dodge
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds, 2 potions of invisibility
__________________________________________________ _________
Abilities Str 12, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
SQ Halfling traits, trapfinding
Feats Dodge, Improved Critical (shortbows), Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Skills Balance +10, Climb +18, Disable Device +19, Escape Artist +15, Gather Information +6, Hide +32, Jump +20, Listen +17, Move Silently +32, Open Lock +25, Search +17, Spot +15, Tumble +23, Use Magic Device +5
Possessions Combat gear, +2 studded leather armor, +2 darkwood buckler, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +2, short sword +2, composite (Str +1) shortbow +1, boots of elvenkind, greater bracers of archery, eyes of the eagle, gloves of dexterity +4, Heward?s handy haversack, ioun stone (pale blue), vest of escape, adventuring gear, masterwork thieves? tools




Hennet CR 12
Male human sorcerer 12
CG Medium humanoid
Init +3; Listen +1, Spot +1
Languages Common
________________________________________________
AC 17, touch 15, flat-footed 14
HP 59 (12 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +9
________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee shortspear +5/+0 (1d6-1)
Ranged +1 light crossbow +10 (1d8+1/19-20)
Base Atk +6; Grp +5
Atk Options point blank shot
Special Actions spells
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds
Spells 6/8/8/7/7/6/4 (CL 12th, +4 touch, +8 ranged touch)
6 ? monster summoning VI
5 ? cone of cold (DC 21), hold monster (DC 20)
4 ? dimension door, polymorph, stoneskin
3 ? dispel magic, displacement, lightning bolt (DC 19), protection from energy
2 ? bear?s endurance, invisibility, see invisibility, scorching ray, web (DC 17)
1 ? mage armor, magic missile, protection from evil, shield, true strike
0 ? arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, light,
mage hand, open/close, read magic
__________________________________________________
Abilities Str 8, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 22
SQ Familiar benefits
Feats Combat Casting, Maximize Spell, Point Blank Shot, Skill Focus (concentration), Spell Focus (evocation), Toughness
Skills Concentration +20 (+24 casting defensively), Knowledge (arcana) +15, Spellcraft +15
Possessions combat gear, amulet of natural armor +2, ring of protection +2, shortspear, +1 light crossbow, bag of holding I, bracers of health +2, cloak of charisma +4, gloves of dexterity +2, wand of haste, spell component pouch, adventuring gear

Bat Familiar (hp 29, AC 22, Int 11, SR 17)



Grom CR 5
Male half-orc ranger 5
NE Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses Darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +1, Spot +9
Languages Common, orc
_________________________________________________
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16
HP 36 (5 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2; Endurance feat
_________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 battle axe +9 (1d8+4/x3) or +1 battle axe +7 (1d8+4/x3) and throwing axe +6 (1d6+1)
Ranged composite (Str +3) longbow +7 (1d8+3/x3) or throwing axe +7 (1d6+3)
Base Atk +5; Grp +8
Atk Options power attack, two weapon fighting
Special Actions Favored enemy (elf +4, animal +2)
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure moderate wounds
Spells Prepared (CL 2nd)
1 ? resist energy
_________________________________________________
Abilities Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6
SQ Orc blood, wild empathy, animal companion (wolf)
Feats Endurance, Power Attack, Quickdraw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting
Skills Hide +10, Knowledge (nature) +9, Move Silently +10, Spot +9, Survival +9 (+11 in above ground natural environments)
Possessions combat gear, chain shirt +2, battle axe +1, 2 throwing axes, composite (Str +3) longbow


Dire Bear CR 7
N Large animal
Init +1; Senses Low-light vision, scent; Listen +10, Spot +10
__________________________________________________ __
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 16
HP 105 (12 HD)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +9; Endurance feat
__________________________________________________ __
Spd 40 ft. (200 ft. running)
Melee 2 claws +19 (2d4+10) and bite +13 (2d8+5)
Space 10 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +9; Grp +23
Special Actions Improved Grab
__________________________________________________ __
Abilities Str 31, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feats Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +13

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dire bear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.



  Ashlann, Narrin's Squire
  3rd level character, 3rd level ranger, CR 3, human, neutral, reveres Tempus and Helm
  Medium humanoid (human) 17 years old, male, 6 feet 1 inches, 170#, grey eyes, black hair, suntanned skin

  Str 14 (+2), Int 15 (+2), Wis 15 (+2), Dex 18 (+4), Con 12 (+1), Cha 10 (+0)
Hit points 20, HD 3d8+3, current hit points 20, non-lethal damage accumulated 0
Move 30 ft, Face/Reach 5 ft/5 ft
AC 20 (chain shirt +4, Dex +4, magic +2), touch AC 16, flat footed AC 16
Initiative +4 (+4 Dex)
Saving throws: Fort +3 (base +3, Con +0, magical/misc +0), Ref +5 (base +1, Dex +4, magical/misc +0), Will +6 (base +4, Wis +2, magical/misc +0)

BAB +3, Grapple +4 (BAB +2, Str +2, size +0, misc +0)
SR none

  +3 longbow +9 ranged (1d8 19-20/x2, 110 ft x 10), Throwing daggers +7 ranged (1d4+2 19-20/x2, 10 ft x 5), Longsword +6 melee (1d8+2, 19-20/x2), Shortsword +6 melee (1d6+2, 19-20/x2)

Special qualities: wild empathy, combat style
Feats: track, point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus (longbow), endurance
Skills:  handle animal +6 (6 ranks, +0 Cha), heal +8 (6 ranks, +2 Wis), hide +8 (6 ranks, +4 Dex, -2 armor), knowledge - geography +8 (6 ranks, +2 Int), move silently +8 (6 ranks, Dex +4, armor -2), search +8 (6 ranks, +2 Int), spot +8 (6 ranks, +2 Wis), survival +8 (6 ranks, +2 Wis)

  Items:  +2 chain shirt, +3 longbow, 5 +1 arrows, short sword, other equipment


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 17, 2005)

Ashlann, Narrin's squire, has arrived.  (See bottom of above post.    )

  EDIT:  Ashlann, alone, could not win against Lidda.

  Ashlann would have accompanied Narrin, his friend and mentor, to the clearing at the start.

  Do you like my build of Ashlann?


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## MichaelH (Dec 17, 2005)

Here are the stat blocks for Ashlann and the wolf.

Edit:  Changed to Edena's version

Ashlann, Narrin’s Squire     CR 3
Male human ranger 3
NE Medium humanoid
Init +4; Listen +2, Spot +8
Languages Common, elf, orc
_________________________________________________
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 16
HP 20 (3 HD)
Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +3; Endurance feat
_________________________________________________
Spd 30 ft.
Melee longsword +5 (1d8+2/19-20) or short sword +5 (1d6+2/19-20)
Ranged +3 longbow +11 (1d8+3/x3) or Rapid Shot +3 longbow +9/+9 (1d8+3/x3)
Base Atk +3; Grp +5
Atk Options point blank shot, rapid shot
Special Actions Favored enemy (elf +2), combat style (archery)
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure light wounds
_________________________________________________
Abilities Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 10
SQ Wild empathy (1d20+5)
Feats Endurance, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Track, Weapon Focus (longbow)
Skills Handle Animal +6, Heal +8, Hide +10, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (nature) +10, Move Silently +10, Search +8, Spot +8, Survival +8 (+10 in above ground natural environments and to avoid hazards and to keep from getting lost and when following tracks)
Possessions combat gear, chain shirt +2, longbow +3, longsword, short sword, 5 arrows +1, other equipment




Wolf, Grom’s Animal Companion     CR 1
N Medium animal
Init +2; Senses Low-light vision; scent; Listen +3, Spot +3
__________________________________________________
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12
HP 12 (2 HD)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
__________________________________________________
Spd 50 ft.
Melee bite +3 (1d6+1)
Base Atk +1; Grp +2
Special Actions trip
__________________________________________________
Abilities Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
SQ animal traits
Feats Track, Weapon Focus (bite)
Skills Hide +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Spot +3, Survival +1

Trip (Ex):  A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity.  If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.


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## MichaelH (Dec 17, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Ashlann, Narrin's Squire
> 3rd level character, 3rd level ranger, CR 3, human, neutral, reveres Tempus and Helm
> Medium humanoid (human) 17 years old, male, 6 feet 1 inches, 170#, grey eyes, black hair, suntanned skin
> 
> ...



Did you roll the ability scores?  No problem, but they are on the high end.  Using the point buy method would require 44 points to build this character whereas the norm is 25 points and tougher campaigns use 28 and 32 points.  The Living Greyhawk campaign uses 28 point buy, for instance.  I used the standard array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8 which is a 25 point buy.  The point buy system, btw, is found in the DMG.

Although I like the nostalgia of listing the ability scores as SIWDCCh, 3rd edition uses SDCIWCh.  It's easier to list it this way because that is how everything will be listed in the books.

Touch AC is 14.  You don't count the +2 enhancement bonus of the chain shirt +2.  The enhancement is not applied to the AC directly, but to the armor.  It enhances the armor bonus of the armor.  Thus a chain shirt +2 provides a +6 armor bonus to AC which does not count in touch AC.

The saving throws are off.  A 3rd level ranger has base saves of +3 Fort, +3 Ref, and +1 Will.  Adding the ability score modifiers makes the saves Fort +4, Ref +7, and Will +3.

Grapple should be +5 (+3 BAB, +2 Str)

The attack bonus for the longbow should be +11 (+3 BAB, +3 Bow, +4 Dex, +1 Weapon Focus).  The damage should be 1d8+3.  The critical is not 19-20/x2 but 20/x3.  The range for longbows is 100 feet.

The attack bonus for the longsword and short sword should be +5 (+3 BAB, +2 Str).

The feat list does not include the combat mastery bonus feat Rapid Shot.

You're short 1 skill.  Add Knowledge (nature) with 6 ranks and +2 for Int.

Ashlann's equipment is a little high in value for his level.  But that's probably alright for the purpose here.  The +3 longbow is definately on the high side.  The +1 arrows do not stack with the +3 bow.  You would use the higher bonus.  He could use them if he had to use a normal bow for some reason, however.

I will run the battle this afternoon, continuing from round 6 from the last battle.  We will see how Ashlann does here.  I will use your version of Ashlann with the corrections listed above.  I am having a good time with this, btw.  Fun thread.


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## MichaelH (Dec 17, 2005)

MichaelH said:
			
		

> Initiative is:
> 16 Lidda
> 14 Narrin
> 12 Claire
> ...



Lidda still has a move action so she moves 20 feet toward Claire, drawing one of her Cure Serious Wounds potions.


Round 7

-Narrin's stabilization roll is 37.  He drops to -3 hit points.

-Lidda is still 45 feet from Claire, so she runs to her and prepares to administer the healing drought.  She does not notice (Spot 5=15-3=17) Ashlann hiding (Hide 20+10=30) 30 feet away inside the tree line.

-Grom's stabilization roll is 64.  His hit point total is now -7.  He is bleeding out.


Round 8

-Note:  According to the DMG, those who enter an encounter aware of their opponents but their opponents are unaware of them enter at the top of the initiative order before everyone else.  Therefore, Ashlann and the wolf begin first in all subsequent round unless they do something that changes their initiative (like delay).

-Ashlann utilizes his Rapid Shot ability and fires twice at Lidda, who cannot use her Dex bonus to AC because she was running.  The first shot (19+9+1=29) hits true for 12 damage.  The second also sinks into Lidda (15+9+1=25) for 10 damage.  Lidda is reduced to 35 hit points.  Ashlann moves feet toward Lidda.  "You will pay for killing my master, peck!"

-The wolf begins 95 feet from Lidda.  It charges the little halfling thinking her to be an appetizer (18+3+2=23) and bites into her for 7 damage.  Lidda is down to 28 hit points.  The wolf has her at a disadvantage and uses its momentum and weight to get her off her feet.  It gets a free trip attack.  Wolf's opposed Str check is 11+1+4=16.  Lidda's opposed Str or Dex check is 5+7-4=8.  The wolf knocks Lidda to the ground where she is prone.

-Narrin's stabilization roll is 79.  His hit point total is now -4.

-Lidda knows she needs Claire to help her finish this fight.  She risks taking her attention from the wolf and pours the potion down Claire's throat (full round action).  The wolf takes advantage of the opening, but its teeth cannot penetrate her studded leather armor (natural 1).  The potion restores 21 hit points to Claire (3d8+5).  Claire had 3 hit points so she is back to her full health of 24.  She also had 16 points of non-lethal damage which is also cured at the same time.  She has no more non-lethal damage.  Claire is now conscious but prone.  "You owe me, elf girl.  Take out the wolf."

Grom's stabilization roll is 24.  He slips to -8 hit points.


Round 9

-Ashlann delays for a better shot, since both his targets are prone (+4 to their AC).

-The wolf snips at Lidda (19+3+4=26) but misses.

-Narrin's stabilization roll is 96.  -5 hit points.

-Claire defensively casts Magic Missile (12+13=25, DC16) at the wolf for 11 damage, hurting it badly.  The wolf only has 1 hit point left.  Claire does not move or try to get up with the wolf so close.  "Nice doggy."

-Lidda sees that the wolf is almost finished and risks getting up.  She begins dodging Ashlann.  The wolf still cannot penetrate her defenses (12+3+4=19).  Lidda shoots the wolf (2+18+1=21) for 7 damage.  The wolf is reduced to -6 hit points and is dying.  Lidda moves 5 feet towards Ashlann.

-Ashlann has his shot and takes it.  His first arrow strikes true (natural 20, 3+9+1=13 no crit) for 8 damage.  Lidda drops to 20 hit points.  His second shot errs (4+9+1=14).

-Grom's stabilization roll is 95.  He is on the edge of death at -9 hit points.


Round 10

-The wolf's stabilization roll is 88.  It drops to -7 hit points.

-Narrin's stabilization roll is 62.  He loses another hit point and now has -6.

-Claire stands up, moves 5 feet away from Ashlann and casts Melf's Acid Arrow at him (2+5=7) but hits a tree instead.  "I need some practice."

-Lidda shoots twice at Ashlann (17+18+1=36, 15+13+1=29) causing 7 damage each time.  Ashlann loses 14 hit points and has 6 left.

-Ashlann shoots back twice (natural 20 again, 11+9+1=21, not critical) doing 9 damage.  The 2nd shot misses (15+9+1=25).  Lidda only has 11 hit points left now.

-Grom's stabilization roll is 37.  He slips into the afterlife.


Round 11

-The wolf's stabilization roll is 20.  It falls to -8 hit points.

-Narrin's stabilization roll is 85.  He also falls to -8 hit points.

-Claire moves 30 feet back away from Ashlann and cast her final Magic Missile spell.  It strikes true for 13 damage (rolled 4,3,3).  Ashlann drops to -7 hit points and is dying.  "My debt is paid, little one."

-Lidda drinks her last cure potion and receives 22 hit points in healing.  That brings up to 33 hit points.  "Stabilize the survivors."

-Ashlann's stabilization roll is 21.  He falls to -8 hit points.


Round 12

-The wolf's stabilization roll is 100.  It drops to -9 hit points.

-Narrin's stabilization roll is 13.  So close, yet so far away.  -9 hit points for Narrin.

-Claire draws her longbow, spins around looking for other attackers, ready to shoot the first bad guy she sees.

-Lidda moves 5 feet to the wolf and tries to help it (Heal 15+0=15, DC15).  Lidda manages to stabilize the wolf!  "I hope Vadania would approve."

-Ashlann's stabilization roll is 38.  He also drops to -9 hit points.  Not a good day for the rangers of Damara.


Round 13

-Narrin's stabilization roll is 05!  He stabilizes at -9 and does not lose any more hit points.

-Claire moves 25 feet and sees that Narrin is alive for now (Heal 17+0=17).

-Lidda moves 15 feet and tries to keep Ashlann from dying (natural 20+0=20).  She stabilizes Ashlann with -9 hit points.  "Eat your heart out, Jozan!"

The wolf, Narrin, and Ashlann are all stabilized at -9 hit points.  The dire bear and Grom are dead.  Lidda and Claire win the battle.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 17, 2005)

(looks tired)

  I am unpleasantly surprised I made so many mistakes in creating Ashlann.  Clearly, the details are eluding me, and I am not getting them down pat.
  I have read a majority of the DMG.  I'm still haven't read a crucial 1/4 of it, however.
  I have read The Complete Adventurer.  I could make a lot comments on that one, based on what I know so far.  But I'll hold it to just a few comments, for this post:

  Danger Sense + Improved Initiative + High Dexterity + Rogue = World of Hurt for Someone Else.
  Danger Sense + Improved Initiative + High Dexterity + Ranger = World of Hurt for Someone Else.
  Danger Sense + Improved Initiative + High Dexterity + Wizard/Sorcerer = World of Hurt for Someone Else.

  Concerning the DMG:

  I don't know where to begin or end with the DMG.
  I will say this:  The Eldritch Knight IS the old fighter/mage, minus Feats (but then again, he does not have to advance at half rate by multiclassing.)
  The Arcane Archer 9th level = You're Dead.  

  DM:  You are standing in the midst of a MASSIVELY fortified castle behind walls of stone 3 feet thick, in the most heavily protected and sealed room in the whole building.  The nearest enemy is over 500 feet beyond the castle gates.
  Suddenly an arrow comes flying into the room, and it only needs a touch attack to hit you, and it ignores ALL physical defenses.  It hits you as a +5 arrow for 1-6 + 5.  9 points of damage.
  Then a second arrow comes in and hits you for another 8 points of damage.

  You:  What can I do?

  DM:  That's a good question.  Surrender unconditionally, maybe?  By the way, as you sit there and think about your options, 2 more arrows come in and hit you, and you take another 16 points of damage ...

  How the Arcane Archer sees her target to hit him, I do not know ...

  The Assassin is back.  With an Attitude.  Sneak Attacks, Death Attacks, and Spells.
  Now, they need a non-evil assassin, so every party with a paladin can have one.  

  Who was it in the 3rd Edition Design Team who decided mages would no longer gain new spell slots at 20th level?
  And why was that decision taken?
  Unless some optional rule (Unearthed Arcana, perhaps) exists to negate that, there is no point in taking a wizard or sorcerer beyond 20th level at all.  (Ok, so you might say:  nobody goes beyond that anyways.  That is not the point.  Some do.  I am asking the Why of things.)

  I am going to translate a very popular item from 1st and 2nd Edition into 3.5 terms:

  Girdle of Giant Strength (Major Artifact)

  These girdles were all created back during the Arcane Age, when enhancement bonuses from magic were unlimited except by the power of the mage who created them.
  This particular girdle, when donned, grants the wearer a + 30 enhancement bonus to strength.  This allows for a +15 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks based on strength, on grapple checks and other combat maneuvers involving strength, and on anything else related to strength.
  This bonus does not stack with other enhancement bonuses to Strength, but it stacks with other kinds of bonuses to Strength (inherent, luck, exalted, etc.)
  This bonus does stack with the enhancement bonuses to attack and damage from weapons with an enhancement bonus.  Thus, a fighter with a +3 sword and this girdle would obtain a +18 to attack rolls, and a +18 to damage rolls.

  This item has a drawback, in that the wielder must become accustomed to his newfound strength.
  Although the girdle strengthens his body to withstand the sheer force being applied to it, it does not automatically convey it's sense of strength to the wielder.  Thus, he may grab an item or object, thinking to pick it up, and crush it in his hands (if it is a vial of acid or a priceless piece of jewelry, this could be problematic.)
  The wearer must make a DC check of 20 against every move he makes, initially.  Failure indicates he fumbles, falls, possibly damages something, possibly injures someone, or otherwise fails to compensate for his incredible strength.  The mug shatters, he picks up food to eat and it flies through the air, he goes to put his boots on and he punches his feet through the soles, he stands to walk and jumps high into the air, and other things of this sort.
  For every hour of intensive practice - practice at compensating for the immense magical strength to move normally - after initial donning of the belt, this DC check is reduced by 1, until it drops to 10.  After that, each uninterrupted day of practice reduces this check by 1, until it drops to 4.  After that, it remains at 4 for a month, 3 for a month, then 2 for 6 months, and finally 1 for another 6 months.
  High dexterity will not offset the necessity of this DC check.  However, spells and magical items granting bonuses to Dexterity will, for so long as they last or are worn.

  Note that a Girdle of Giant Strength cannot raise the wearer's strength above 40.  If he already has a strength of 40, the Girdle conveys no benefit although it does convey the clumsiness.  If the wearer had a strength near 40: say, 35 to 37, a mere 3 to 5 point strength increase occurs, granting little benefit, and the full effects of the clumsiness are accrued nevertheless.

  The primary curse of this artifact are it's effects, if the wielder uses it's power.  The wearer will become famed (or infamous) across the land for his stupendous feats of strength.  Within a few weeks to a few months, depending on how actively he uses the item, the DC to know that this is the Person  with the Girdle will drop to 10 for any bard.
  Needless to say, many greedy and jealous NPCs, assorted nobility and the sovereign, and countless organizations both fair and shady (not to mention more than a few intelligent monsters) will come seeking the Person with the Girdle.
  Life will be most interesting, and life expectancy likely most short, if the person with the Girdle refuses to voluntarily relinquish it.

  EDIT:  I'm using the 4d6, drop the lowest die, arrange according to taste method.  I was only comfortable with the Point Buy system at tournaments, back when I played.  I don't mind if the PCs have high stats (although, if they start with two 18s or more, or three 17s or more, that is pushing it too far, barring extraordinary circumstances such as the PCs of Athas.)
  Also, I have seen that Point Buy inevitably leads to character with low Charisma.  Invariably (sighs) they have a Charisma of 8.  I'm an old fogey in this regard, in that I like seeing characters with Charisma scores of 15, 16, 17, or even 18!


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## IcyCool (Dec 17, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The wolf grapples, wins, then goes for the pin and wins, preventing Lidda from shooting it.




The Wolf has one attack, and not enough BAB to get iterative attacks.  So the wolf may start a grapple.  And that's it.  So we'll say the wolf starts a grapple (which provokes an attack of opportunity from Lidda (but if she's flat-footed, she can't take it unless she has the Combat Reflexes feat).  The wolf successfully grapples.  Lidda and the wolf are now successfully grappled.  The wolf also does his unarmed damage (there is some debate as to whether he does the standard 1d3+str mod as a normal medium creature, or whether he does his natural attack damage).



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Lidda:  tries to break the pin, fails.  Does some damage to the wolf, unarmed.




Lidda attempts to break the grapple.  She may either make opposed grapple checks with the wolf, or she may substitute an Escape Artist check instead of a grapple check, so long as all she is trying to do is escape the grapple.  As Lidda's Escape Artist check is at +15 (her total skill after modifiers), she takes this option.  In order for Lidda to fail, she would have to roll less than the wolf.  The wolf is rolling 1d20+2, and Lidda is rolling 1d20+15.  It is likely that Lidda breaks the grapple.  But for the sake of arguement, we'll say she rolls a 1+15=16 and the wolf rolls a 15+2=17.  Lidda now has a second iterative attack.  She tries once again to escape from the grapple.  2+15=17 vs. the wolf's 18+2=20.  The wolf keeps her from escaping.

The squire does his action (administer healing potion to Narrin).

The Wolf:  goes for the pin on Lidda.  He rolls his grapple vs. her grapple.  He rolls 16+2=18 and she rolls 5+6=11.  The wolf pins Lidda.  A pin lasts for one round.  So when the wolf's turn comes up again, he can attempt to 'pin her again' a.k.a. 'maintain the pin', or he can do something else.

Lidda:  tries to break the pin.  If Lidda successfully breaks the pin, she is still considered grappled.  Lidda is only trying to escape, so she may substitute an escape artist check in place of a grapple check.  She rolls 14+15=29 vs. the wolf's 17+2=19.  Lidda successfully escapes the pin!  She is still grappled, however.  Since she has another interative attack, she makes another Escape Artist check to break free of the grapple.  20+15=35 vs. the wolf's 20+2=22, Lidda escapes!

The squire:  Administers healing potion to Grom

The Wolf: does what it is best at and attacks!  It rolls 20+3=23!  A successful hit (natural 20 is always a hit), and possibly a critical!  Confirmation roll is 14+3=17, not enough.  Damage is 4+1=5 points to Lidda.  The wolf now takes it's free Trip attempt.  The wolf now rolls it's strength check opposed by Lidda's strength or dex check.  She opts for Dex.  19+1=20 for the wolf vs. Lidda's 12+7=19.  Lidda falls to the ground as the wolf grabs her ankle in it's mouth and shakes her like a rag doll!  Note, Lidda is now Prone.  She was not Prone when she was grappled or pinned.

Lidda:  stands and watches the wolf warily.

The squire: Stands and aims his bow at Lidda.  Calls to the wolf for it to stop attacking.  He readies an action to shoot Lidda if she moves.

Squire: Cease resisting, and I'll call the wolf off. Otherwise, I'll shoot.

The Wolf: readies an action to eat Lidda if she moves.

Lidda:  Sprints into the woods.  The wolf misses it's bite, and the squire's arrow flies into a tree as the wily halfling hurries through the woods.

The Squire: Calls to the wolf to keep it from chasing Lidda and fires another shot after Lidda.

The wolf: growls after Lidda, but returns to the Squire and Grom.

Lidda: Continues to run through the woods, hell-bent on getting out of there.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 17, 2005)

Touch attacks and ranged touch attacks go right through the Enhancement bonus of magical armor?!

  So, a hypothetical fighter with a +5 shield and +5 plate armor (unlikely!) but only 10 dexterity ... has a touch AC of 10!

  As I said:  Arcane Archer 9th level = You're Dead.

  Also, those touch attacks by the incorporeal, level draining undead = You're Dead (if you're lucky) or One of Them (if you're not.) (You'd BETTER have a cleric on hand.)


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## MichaelH (Dec 17, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Touch attacks and ranged touch attacks go right through the Enhancement bonus of magical armor?!



Yes, because the enhancment bonus does not enhance AC, it enhances the armor bonus, which affects the AC.  That means that +2 chain mail grants a +7 armor bonus to AC and is completely ignored by touch attacks.



> So, a hypothetical fighter with a +5 shield and +5 plate armor (unlikely!) but only 10 dexterity ... has a touch AC of 10!



That is correct.  But also remember that wizard types have the lowest BAB and usually average Str and Dex.  In my combat above, Claire fired her Melf's Acid Arrow at Ashlann but only rolled a 2 plus her BAB of 2 and Dex bonus of 3 for a total of 7.  Not high enough.



> Also, those touch attacks by the incorporeal, level draining undead = You're Dead



Those are nasty.  They are not technically touch attacks, but "incorporeal touch attacks."  They ignore armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses like normal touch attacks, but force effects work against them even if they are armor bonuses.  For example, a wraith attacks Claire with her mage armor spell up.  Normally, a touch attack ignores this spell because it is an armor bonus.  But it is also a force effect (see the spell description) so the incorporeal touch does not ignore it.  The wraith must penetrate her mage armor to successfully attack her.


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## MichaelH (Dec 17, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (looks tired)
> 
> I am unpleasantly surprised I made so many mistakes in creating Ashlann.  Clearly, the details are eluding me, and I am not getting them down pat.



Don't sweat it.  I still make mistakes.  There are alot of details.  When 3e first came out, it most people quite some time to get most things down.



> I am going to translate a very popular item from 1st and 2nd Edition into 3.5 terms:
> 
> Girdle of Giant Strength (Major Artifact)
> 
> ...



Wow.  This is definately an artifact level item.  Only 1 in existance.  There are belts of giant strength in the DMG.  One gives +4 to Str and one gives +6.



> EDIT:  I'm using the 4d6, drop the lowest die, arrange according to taste method.  I was only comfortable with the Point Buy system at tournaments, back when I played.  I don't mind if the PCs have high stats (although, if they start with two 18s or more, or three 17s or more, that is pushing it too far, barring extraordinary circumstances such as the PCs of Athas.)
> Also, I have seen that Point Buy inevitably leads to character with low Charisma.  Invariably (sighs) they have a Charisma of 8.  I'm an old fogey in this regard, in that I like seeing characters with Charisma scores of 15, 16, 17, or even 18!



I would say that players will put their lowest score in Charisma using both systems and a higher score in Charisma using both systems.  It depends on what you want your character to be good at.  I like point buy so I don't have to worry about players using less than honorable means when rolling the dice.  But I don't mind rolling, either.  For 3e, though, higher ability scores seem to matter more, especially if they are significantly higher than a typical 25 or 28 point buy character would be.


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## Silveras (Dec 18, 2005)

MichaelH said:
			
		

> Yes, because the enhancment bonus does not enhance AC, it enhances the armor bonus, which affects the AC.  That means that +2 chain mail grants a +7 armor bonus to AC and is completely ignored by touch attacks.




This is a point that many who played 1st/2nd Edition had a hard time adjusting to. It is more clearly expressed as: 

Chainmail grants a +5 Armor bonus. The magical +2 enhancement bonus of +2 Chainmail increases that to a +7 Armor bonus; it does NOT add a +2 enhancement bonus to the AC directly. Anything that ignores Armor bonuses (like touch attacks) ignores the enhanced Armor bonus, as well.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

(comes back from a long-distance shopping trip with the Monster Manual 3.5, the Complete Warrior, the Book of Exalted Deeds, and the Expanded Psionics Handbook.  Is back in the Hobby, indeed.)

  I think I got the core books I need now ...

  -

  In 1st and 2nd edition, Girdles of Giant Strength were fairly common and quite popular.  They granted Strengths that allowed for attack bonuses of +3 to +7, and damage bonuses of +7 to +15.
  Back at that time, bonuses of the same type stacked (winces, thinking of the statement in the 3.5 DMG:  We, by this new system of disallowing stacking bonuses of the same type, encourage creative gaming, not pile-it-on gaming.)
  Thus, you had things like fighters with Girdles of Giant Strength and a +5 sword, and a +3 sword, and 2 attacks per round, and the fighter attacked with the off-hand (gaining 2 more attacks at only a -1 to -2, typically.)

  In 3rd Edition, you cannot have more than a +5 enhancement.  Thus, a Girdle of Giant Strength is a major artifact (artifacts were defined as items that broke the rules in 2nd edition, and I think it reasonable to assume they are the items that break the rules in 3rd edition also.  But just think:  If you have this item, and only a few exist, everyone wants to share your good luck ... which means you are out of luck.)

  -

  I find the new rules on touch attacks hilarious.  
  In 1st and 2nd edition, we all worried about the dreaded level draining undead.  We worried about them even with the cleric at hand to turn them.
  But it was only worry.  When we faced wraiths, spectres, and the like, we shot magical arrows at them, fired spells at them, and turned them if possible.

  Back then, a fighter in +3 chain mail, with a +3 shield, and a 17 dexterity, would have had an AC of - 5 (in 2nd edition terms) or 25 (in 3.5 terms.)
  Pretty good.  A good chance that wraith or spectre won't hit, if it somehow manages to close to melee range.
  Yes, something to be worried about.  But nothing to get overly dramatic about.

  Now, have those players time travel to the present.
  Said fighter with the +3 chain mail and +3 shield, and 17 dexterity, has an AC of 7 (in 2nd edition terms) or 13 (in 3rd edition terms) against the level draining attack.  And although there is a save to not permanently lose levels, it must be made for each negative level bestowed, and your chance of making it isn't good.

  These time travelled players would have one of three reactions:

  1.  They did WHAT?!  You gotta be joking.  And not a funny joke!
  (And you, the DM, smile gently and shake your head.)

  2.  We quit!
  (And you, the DM, kindly inform them you won't send them back in time to their proper time, if they don't play!    )

  3.  RUN FOR YOUR LIVES.  (The party sets the new Olympic World Records (1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place) for the fastest 50 yard dash in known history.)

  That is what would happen.
  Oh, if they only knew, those time travelled 2E players.  If only they knew, that the incorporeal touch attacks were only the tip of the iceberg.  They are now in a new world ... of touch spells, ranged touch spells, sneak attacks, ranged sneak attacks, ranged sneak touch attacks (that one scares ME ... ) assassins with Death Strikes and Feats that allow such strikes at range, Arcane Archers that shoot through 3 foot thick stone walls without batting an eyelash, Bladesingers that drop Quicken Spells AND carve you up in the same round (at low levels ...), and other sweet things like that.
  That's just the beginning.  Then, there are all those monsters out there, and they can have character levels and Feats and Skills and supernatural abilities, and ...

  2E Party:  You are saying our 20th level fighter with the +5 sword, +5 defender, +5 plate armor, +5 shield, and 20 strength has no chance against a wraith?  A wraith?!  Just what kind of world are you trying to push on us?!
  (You the DM)  The 3rd edition world.  Get used to it.  Or die of it.  By the way, that wraith is THROUGHLY enjoying the fact that a 20th level fighter with +5 everything is running away from it like a scared rabbit.  And ... you DO realize you won't be able to outrun it, right?  Because you will tire out and it won't.  You didn't realize that?  Oh well ... perhaps you should have honored and respected your party cleric a little bit more than you did, so he didn't abandon you long ago.  Oh well ...


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

And that duelist (I think that's the name) from the Complete Adventurer is hilarious too.
  At 10th level, she gains 10 to her AC for one PrC ability, and another 10 to her AC for another PrC ability.  And she can wear light armor, and many magical items, and gets her dexterity.

  Nothing like going to AC 30 in 10 levels, just due to your PrC.  (chuckles)
  Add in Dex 18, and it's AC 34.  Add in +5 elven chain, and it's up to 44.  Add in those assorted divine, exalted, luck, circumstance, and other bonuses, and you're pushing 50.

  (This is why you don't mess around with Athos, Porthos, and Aramis ...)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

I will admit it:  some of my reactions to the new rules fell under the heading of (deleted, since it would offend Eric Noah's Grandmother.)
  Not that I am dissing anything, just expressing utter astonishment at things.

  Oh, and there's nothing like a mage being able to cast ALL of his spells as Quickened Spells ... period.
  I read that in the Complete Arcane, before I left.
  Can we say ... well, there is nothing to say.  Except that a 50th level wizard in THIS version of the game, Wins.  Period.  Finis.  No Saving Throw.

  For those of you worried about Acererak in the Tomb of Horrors, consider that he probably has all the epic metamagic feats.
  And you want to take him on?
  Really?
  REALLY?

  ... and now your soul will die.  (emphasis on the WILL part)


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## Tiberius (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (looks tired)
> Concerning the DMG:
> 
> I don't know where to begin or end with the DMG.
> ...




Doesn't work quite that way.  While the Arcane Archer is capable of using each of those special powers, he can't use them all at once.  Each one requires a standard action to use (probably for the very reason you outlined above).



> Who was it in the 3rd Edition Design Team who decided mages would no longer gain new spell slots at 20th level?
> And why was that decision taken?
> Unless some optional rule (Unearthed Arcana, perhaps) exists to negate that, there is no point in taking a wizard or sorcerer beyond 20th level at all.  (Ok, so you might say:  nobody goes beyond that anyways.  That is not the point.  Some do.  I am asking the Why of things.)




This is addressed in the Epic Level Handbook, to mixed reviews.  Epic characters on the whole become fighter-like, in that further advancement in their classes is gained less through improved class features but more through bonus feats.  Casters get access to the epic feats Improved Spell Capacity (which opens up 10th+ level spell slots for metamagic or just stuffing extra spells into) and Epic Spellcasting (the ability to create and cast world-shaking spells [in theory]) as enhancements to their spellcasting prowess.  They can access the assorted Automatic Metamagic feats, and some new metamagic feats.  They can also gain the Craft Epic [item] feats, which allow for things like that girdle you talk about.  But, one thing at a time.

I'm not sure of the rationale, but if I had to guess, I'd give it something like this:
BAB and save progression do not function as normal under the epic level rules.  Every couple of levels, every epic character gains a +1 epic bonus to their attacks and saves.  These bonuses are different in that, among other things, they never give extra attacks.  So if your BAB at 20 is 20/15/10/5 and you become a 22nd level character, your BAB becomes 21/16/11/6, not 21/26/11/6/1.  Classes based around these (like fighters, monks, rogues, etc.) must use these less favorable bonuses.  If the spellcasting classes continued to progress as they did before the epic levels, it would be unbalancing.  Instead, they get bonus feats more frequently than their counterparts, which enables them to improve themselves every couple of levels like their less-magical friends.

Many people dislike the ELH's take on level 21+.  One of the more common complaints is that while a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 gets the same BAB, saves, and spell progression no matter how you go about constructing it, a Fighter 20/Wizard 20's BAB alone could vary between 25/20/15/10 (if the Ftr20 is taken first) and 15/10 (if the Wiz20 is taken first), to say nothing about saves and spell capacity.  I'd give it a read, though, and make yer own call.



> I am going to translate a very popular item from 1st and 2nd Edition into 3.5 terms:
> 
> Girdle of Giant Strength (Major Artifact)
> 
> ...




This would be possible to create with the Craft Epic Wonderous Item feat.  It would run you about 9,000,000 gp (market value), so would cost 4,500,000 gp and 360,000 xp to make (assuming a base Belt of Giant Strength +30, with no cost modifiers due to curses, intelligence, user restrictions, etc.).


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## Tiberius (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Oh, and there's nothing like a mage being able to cast ALL of his spells as Quickened Spells ... period.
> I read that in the Complete Arcane, before I left.
> Can we say ... well, there is nothing to say.  Except that a 50th level wizard in THIS version of the game, Wins.  Period.  Finis.  No Saving Throw.




Well, even high-level casters are limited by the "One quickened spell a round" rule, so having all your spells be quickened would be counterproductive.  Still, half quickened, half not is potent, and nasty.


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## Tiberius (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> 2E Party:  You are saying our 20th level fighter with the +5 sword, +5 defender, +5 plate armor, +5 shield, and 20 strength has no chance against a wraith?  A wraith?!  Just what kind of world are you trying to push on us?!
> (You the DM)  The 3rd edition world.  Get used to it.  Or die of it.  By the way, that wraith is THROUGHLY enjoying the fact that a 20th level fighter with +5 everything is running away from it like a scared rabbit.  And ... you DO realize you won't be able to outrun it, right?  Because you will tire out and it won't.  You didn't realize that?  Oh well ... perhaps you should have honored and respected your party cleric a little bit more than you did, so he didn't abandon you long ago.  Oh well ...




Well, this fighter isn't completely screwed.  His incorporeal touch AC is low, though, but any self-respecting fighter of that level will have things like deflection bonuses, insight bonuses, dodge bonuses, etc., all of which function against inc. touches.  Additionally, because he is wielding a magical weapon, he can affect the wraith.  The thing's incorporeality just means he has a 50% chance of swinging right through it, unless he has Ghost Touch on the weapon.  Further, he could put the Ghost Touch property on his armor and shield, giving him his full armor bonus against incorporeal touch attacks.  While the enhancement bonus of the items in question cannot pass +5, you can stick a total of +10 worth of properties on the item.  So a +5 ghost touch full plate wouldn't be unreasonable (in fact, it might be a good idea, at a mere 64,000 gp market price).

Also, the 4th level cleric spell Death Ward protects entirely against negative levels, and the 4th level spell Restoration removes them entirely, before they become a problem.  Negative levels are much kinder in 3e, I think, even though the means of delivery are substantially nastier.  Vampires and wights and such are no longer "AAAAAUGH!!  DON'T LET IT TOUCH ME!  I LIKE MY LEVELS!" antifun monsters, but rather threats challenging but not crippling to a well-prepared party.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> In 3rd Edition, you cannot have more than a +5 enhancement.  Thus, a Girdle of Giant Strength is a major artifact (artifacts were defined as items that broke the rules in 2nd edition, and I think it reasonable to assume they are the items that break the rules in 3rd edition also.  But just think:  If you have this item, and only a few exist, everyone wants to share your good luck ... which means you are out of luck.)




Well, that "no more than +5" is true of armor, shields, and weapons, as well as rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, and amulets of natural armor (at least, short of the Epic rules).  Dig around a bit in the DMG, and you'll see that Bracers of Armor go up to +8.

And, the Belt of Giant Strength is a standard item in the DMG.  There are "ability boost" items for all six abilities (Gloves of Dexterity, Headband of Intellect, etc.); all of them come in three flavors: +2 (4000gp), +4 (16,00gp), and +6 (36,000gp) (granting an enhancement bonus of that amount to the relevant ability score).  

The reason that they only come in even-numbered "pluses" is because ability score bonuses increase every 2 points...thus, if you could have "Gloves of Dexterity +1", they'd give you an effective increase to your Dex if you currently had an odd-numbered Dexterity score (i.e., going from 17 to 18 increases your bonus), but would give you no benefit at all if you currently had an even-numbered Dexterity score.

Oh, and in a nod to the old editions of the game, the Strength-boosting item is Gauntlets of Ogre Power at +2, and the Belt of Giant Strength at +4 and +6.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> 2E Party:  You are saying our 20th level fighter with the +5 sword, +5 defender, +5 plate armor, +5 shield, and 20 strength has no chance against a wraith?  A wraith?!  Just what kind of world are you trying to push on us?!
> (You the DM)  The 3rd edition world.  Get used to it.  Or die of it.  By the way, that wraith is THROUGHLY enjoying the fact that a 20th level fighter with +5 everything is running away from it like a scared rabbit.  And ... you DO realize you won't be able to outrun it, right?  Because you will tire out and it won't.  You didn't realize that?  Oh well ... perhaps you should have honored and respected your party cleric a little bit more than you did, so he didn't abandon you long ago.  Oh well ...




That's more than a bit of an overexaggeration.  Even with the 50% miss chance for facing an incorporeal creature, the 20th level fighter is *still* not going to be seriously threatened by a wraith.  

The wraith may get in one hit, but it's only a DC 14 Fort save to avoid the Con drain...a 20th level fighter has a *base* Fort save of +12; if he has even another +1 from anything (a Con of at least 12, a +1 ring of protection, whatever), he only fails that save on a natural 1.  Meanwhile, said fighter will almost undoubtedly obliterate the wraith with one round of full attack (4 attacks, all will undoubtedly hit the AC unless the fighter rolls a natural 1, on average 2 will succeed vs. the miss chance, and from a 20th level fighter, that should be more than enough to destroy it).


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## kenobi65 (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> And that duelist (I think that's the name) from the Complete Adventurer is hilarious too.




What class exactly are you talking about?  Duelist is in the DMG, and, in a quick poke through Complete Adventurer, I couldn't find a class like what you're describing.

At any rate, by the time you reach 10th level in a PrC, you're looking at being around 17th level (at least)...and, in 3E, ACs in the 40s for fighting-types at that level aren't *that* unusual.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

You are thinking of a 3rd edition 20th level fighter.
  I'm talking about a 2nd edition 20th level fighter.
  Converting his 2nd edition stats into 3rd edition terminology, he has BAB +20, Fort/Ref/Will saves of roughly +15 to +17, and he can attack twice per round (4 times per round if he uses a weapon in his off-hand.)
  If he has +5 plate armor, a +5 shield, and 18 dexterity, he has a 2E dexterity of -12, which in 3rd edition would be thought of as a 32.

  But he does not have access to deflection bonuses (what is a deflection bonus?)
  He has no access to insight bonuses, dodge bonuses, or any other types of bonuses!  Because those didn't exist in 2E, he can't use them now.  He's stuck with his mighty +5 plate armor and +5 shield.  (He was quite content with those, in 2E!)
  Now ...
  The fighter has a magic weapon.  In 2E, that meant if he hit, he hit.  Now, it means that even if he hit, he has a 50/50 chance of missing.  (There was no such thing as a ghost touch weapon in 2E.)
  Nor could he stack any additional bonuses onto his +5 armor.  +5 armor, was +5 armor.  That was it!  Nothing more!

  +5 ghost touch full plate was an unheard of dream back in 2nd edition.  Remember that in 3rd edition characters (and monsters) have infinitely more choices than they had before.
  But the fighter, brought forward in time, is still stuck with the 2nd edition rules, while his opponent - the wraith - gets to use the full 3rd edition ruleset!

  So, the wraith starts attacking the AC 13 (AC 7, 2nd edition, since the fighter is stuck with his 2nd edition rules) fighter.  Those levels start coming off real, real quick.  (Give the wraith high levels in a class and multiple attacks, and the fighter just shrivels like burned toast in a broken toaster.)

  Methinks the fighter wouldn't wait around to find out how the new ruleset was going to affect him, when he was stuck with the old ruleset.
  Methinks the fighter, after realizing he was Armor Class 7 (2nd edition) would ... as I said ... pull the Olympic World Record for the 50 yard dash.

  3rd edition characters and monsters can pull stunts beyond the wildest dreams of 2nd and 1st edition characters.

  And I read that there exists a feat, by the way, that allows an epic wizard to take an extra quickened spell each round, when this epic feat is taken.  Furthermore, the feat stacks:  every time it is taken, the mage can unload another quicken spell in a round.
  So, take the epic feat 5 times, unload 6 quickened spells in a single round.
  And then the epic mage still gets his standard and move actions for the round, as well.  

  (looks at the cost and experience point cost of the Girdle of Giant Strength)

  Building a Girdle would be too expensive and costly in experience to do in the current time.
  Back in the Arcane Age, I am guessing, the rules for creating epic spells and epic items must have been different (read:  easier.)
  That's when they made the girdles.  And some of them are still around today.  My take.


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## Staffan (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I find the new rules on touch attacks hilarious.
> In 1st and 2nd edition, we all worried about the dreaded level draining undead.  We worried about them even with the cleric at hand to turn them.



Some things to note:

The first monster, CR-wise, that is both incorporeal and has an energy drain attack, is the spectre, at CR 7. The spectre's attack bonus is +6. A 7th level fighter probably has a touch AC of at least 12 (+1 Dex, +1 deflection from Ring of Protection), 16 if the wizard casts _mage armor_ on him. In addition, if he's fighting a spectre, he would probably try to increase his touch AC by fighting defensively (giving +2 AC for -4 to hit) and/or using Combat Expertise (up to +5 AC for -5 to hit). So while the spectre has a pretty good chance to hit, it's not guaranteed. Also, the spectre only has 45 hp and an AC of 15.

Some examples from other CR 7 monsters, for comparison: Bulette (+16/2d8+8 attack, AC 22, 94 hp), Hellcat (2x +13/1d8+6 and +8/2d8+3 attack, AC 21, 60 hp), Huge Monstrous Scorpion (2x +11/1d8+6 and +6/2d4+3+poison to attack, AC 20, 75 hp), Red Slaad (+11/2d8+5 and 2x +9/1d4+2 to attack, AC 19, 52 hp), and Umber Hulk (2x +11/2d4+6 and +9/2d8+3 to attack, AC 18, 71 hp, confusion gaze). So the spectre is lagging behind here.

Finally, energy drain itself has lost a lot of its teeth. The immediate effect is that you gain a "negative level", which basically gives you -1 to everything, -5 hp, and you lose one prepared spell of your highest level. 24 hours after the attack, you get a save (DC 15 for a spectre) to restore your levels, before they turn into actual level loss. During this 24-hour grace period, you have plenty of opportunity to either find some way of boosting your Fort save before the critical time, or for the party cleric to prepare and cast _restoration_ (which is a 4th level spell now - conveniently castable by a 7th level cleric), which either restores all negative levels or one level that has actually been lost.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

(humor, correction of my previous mistake)

  Ah, my pardons.  It's the duelist in the DMG, and she's not quite as bad as all that.
  If she has a 20 intelligence, and is a 5th level duelist, she'd get +5 to her AC.
  At 10th level, she'd gain 10 to her AC for Elaborate Parry, but she cannot wear armor.  My mistake.

  She can only don a +5 cloak of protection, instead.
  And a headband of intellect +5.  

  I love it.  ACs in the 40s aren't that uncommon, you say, at epic levels.
  The highest AC I ever saw, in 20 years of gaming, prior to 3rd edition, was - 24.  That would be 44 in 3rd edition.  And you say ACs in the 40s aren't *that* uncommon over level 20 in 3rd edition.  lolol ...  

  The highest AC any character of mine ever achieved was -12 (32.)  The highest AC Edena the Cleric ever achieved was -3 (AC 23.)

  Now, they can achieve AC 30 and better easier.  And the 40s aren't uncommon.

  Note to all 2nd edition characters trapped in 3rd edition:  RUN.  

  EDIT:  I realize the 3rd edition 20th level fighter would easily kill the wraith.
  I'm speaking of the 2nd edition 20th level fighter.  
  The wraith, however, gains all the benefits of 3rd edition.  It could have spells, it could be wearing ghosttouch armor, it could be a high level fighter itself.  The 2nd edition fighter is expecting a Standard Wraith (the player has probably memorized it from the 2nd edition monster manual.)  
  The poor 2nd edition 20th level fighter is hit with a deluge of assaults that he never expected, and in many cases simply didn't exist as options in 2nd edition ... and all his armor defenses are annulled.
  Yeah, he can still make his save versus death magic and shrug off the level drain.  But if I were playing him, I'd be running.

  It's not that they upgunned everyone in 3rd edition.  That's not it.
  It's that they gave everyone so many CHOICES in 3rd edition.  THAT has made everyone and every monster bloody powerful!

  So yeah, a 3rd edition fighter wipes the floor with the wraith.
  A 2nd edition 20th level fighter with +5 plate armor and +5 shield and 18 dexterity, runs for his life.

  EDIT:  That's assuming it's a mere CR 5 to CR 10 wraith.  If it's a CR 20 wraith, designed to take on a 20th level 3rd edition fighter, the 20th level 2nd edition fighter is so fried, you can't scrape him off the ground with an adamantite spatula!


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## kenobi65 (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> You are thinking of a 3rd edition 20th level fighter.
> I'm talking about a 2nd edition 20th level fighter.




Except that no 2E fighter would have to face a 3E incorporeal undead.

Trying to mix-and-match 2E and 3E rules and concepts is *going* to give you these weird observations, Edena.

Maybe you're just posting these as wry observations, but some of them come across as you saying, "holy s***, this is completely broken!"  And, we've been trying to show you how, no, it's not, it's just *different* than it used to be.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> 3rd edition characters and monsters can pull stunts beyond the wildest dreams of 2nd and 1st edition characters.




Yup.  And, conversely, as you've ponted out over the last days, there were also things you could do fairly easily in 2E that are difficult, if not impossible, in 3E.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> She can only don a +5 cloak of protection, instead.
> And a headband of intellect +5.




Ah, here's another new gem for you from the DMG.

In 1E / 2E, there were both Cloaks and Rings of Protection.  Both gave bonuses to both saves and AC, and they stacked.

In 3E, Rings of Protection give a bonus to AC, and *only* AC.  Cloaks of Resistance give a bonus to saves, and *only* saves.

And, a Headband of Intellect +6 (the best there is) would give her an AC bonus of +3, since raising your Intelligence by 6 points raises your Int bonus by +3.

And, in addition to those things, she could (and probably would) have Bracers of Armor and an Amulet of Natural Armor.

Edit: oh, and Elaborate Parry only works if the duelist is fighting defensively, or doing total defense.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

No, no, no, you got me all wrong.
  I'm not saying 3rd edition is broken!
  I'm not attempting to dis 3rd edition.  I LIKE what I am reading.  

  I just find it humorous, and am trying to be humorous.
  I'm simply imagining a time-travel situation where 2nd edition characters were thrown into a 3rd edition world.  They had to stick to the 2nd edition rules, but everyone else used the 3rd edition rules, including their opponents.
  I find it humorous.  The poor 2nd edition characters would be hiding in terror from those 5 orcs on the ridge yonder.

  Remember that I can still look at the game through the lens of a 2nd edition mindset, but now I'm learning to look at it through the lens of a 3.5 mindset also.
  The 3.5 system works quite well, I think.  To me, it seems very good indeed.  I didn't just go and buy all those books without good reason!  I really LIKE the 3.5 system!

  But it is hilarious, when you take a 2nd edition mindset, and apply it.
  It is.  I mean, I wish to heck *I* had had access to all these cool, great, imaginative rules when I was playing regularly!
  I do.  As I said, Jozan is the cleric Edena should have been.  Alhandra is the paladin Osilovar should have been.  Valdania is the druid Cyndelle should have been.  And Lidda is the rogue Aerviue should have been.

  I lament the fact I did not have these rules back in the 80s and 90s.  If we had had these rules, we would have had more fun.  A lot more fun.
  Looking at it from the perspective of 3.5 - through the lens of 3.5 - I see now we were playing AD&D in a straitjacket, and I have to wonder how in heaven's name we had any fun at all?

  But it IS hilarious, to think of a 20th level fighter maxed to the hit with +5 items, hiding from a wraith.  That's funny.  And that's what would happen if the fighter had to abide by those 2nd edition rules, and the wraith got the 3rd edition rules (and especially, if it was a CR 15 to 20 challenge.)

  Nay, I am not dissing 3.5.  I'm complimenting it.  Bigtime.  I mean, BIGTIME.
  I think it's kick butt.  I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with this new game.

  And I think that, I'm going to eventually actually figure out HOW to combine all those bonuses and whatnot, and then you'll see what Broken Characters truly are!  I'll submit some!


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## kenobi65 (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> No, no, no, you got me all wrong.
> I'm not saying 3rd edition is broken!
> I'm not attempting to dis 3rd edition.  I LIKE what I am reading.
> 
> I just find it humorous, and am trying to be humorous.




Ah, understood, and sorry for the misunderstanding.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I lament the fact I did not have these rules back in the 80s and 90s.  If we had had these rules, we would have had more fun.  A lot more fun.
> Looking at it from the perspective of 3.5 - through the lens of 3.5 - I see now we were playing AD&D in a straitjacket, and I have to wonder how in heaven's name we had any fun at all?




I agree with you there.  I stopped playing AD&D around 1995, because I had become very disenchanted with the clunky, inconsistent rules.  From '95 to '00, I was playing various other, newer, game systems.  3E brought me back to D&D (and I know, from reading this board, that my experience was by no means unique).


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## monboesen (Dec 18, 2005)

> And I think that, I'm going to eventually actually figure out HOW to combine all those bonuses and whatnot, and then you'll see what Broken Characters truly are! I'll submit some!




And here you have identified one of 3ed biggest drawbacks. It is difficult to remember these rules for bonuses. Even more when you start using spells to buff people. 

"Huh. So the Bulls strength spells doesn't make me stronger because I'm already wearing a Belt of giant strength..."

For casual players (like mine) who don't enjoy immersing themselves in the rules and reads the PH as where it the holy book, the numereous types of bonuses and the stacking rules grinds the game to a hold every time 

Regarding ability scores there has been a paradigm shift since 2ed. You might like (and be used to) to see 15-18 in most scores, but you need to realise that it means something entirely different in 3ed. In 3ed a 12 is a good score. It gives you a positive modifier to whatever that score affects. So a 12 in str equals a 2ed 17, in dex a 2ed 15 (not even sure if its 16) and so on. So ability scores don't need to as high. 

25 point buy is a bit low in most peoples regard, but is the baseline for the game. That means thats the abilty score array that the game is balanced against. Playtesters all around the world have tested the game with those scores and their results have been used to assay challenge ratings (Do you know how those work?). So if you allow players better scores (like rolling 4d6) you have upped the power level of the game and need higher CR to challenge them. This leads to more XP and faster level gain. Doesn't have to be a problem, just need to be prepared for it.

Anyway if all choose low charisma you make them pay. (and remember the bard, sorcerer and paladin all needs high charisma to work, so not all can ignore it).

People won't trust them
People won't like them
Peple won't hire them
People will ignore and mistreat (and betray) them
They will get less money from selling goods
They will not be recognized for their heroic deeds
The king will find more charismatic people to do his work (he likes that other adventuring group better, even if they are a bit worse at getting the job done)
and so on..

Make it matter and players will choose higher charisma next time. Be sure that they understand that charisma has nothing to do with good looks (players get to choose how they look). But everything to do with force of personality. The blustering, intimidating fighter does not have a charisma of 8, because then he would not be blustering and intimidating. He would most likely be quiet and insecure in social settings. Charisma equals Strength, its just strength of personality. 

Low charisma = quiet, shy, introspective, dull, insecure, stuttering, always says the wrong thing.

High charisma = charming, intimidating!, likeable, interesting, well spoken, noticeable, stands out in a crowd, reasuring.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

I know every monster template has a CR.  I believe your PC level (character level) is his CR.

  I think I understand the spirit of how CR works.  It is there to support balance.
  When I refer to balance, I'm referring to something very specific that is summed up in one sentence:  Every player has a fair chance at having an equal share of the fun. 
  That's what they stressed over and over in chapter 1 of the DMG, and that's a balance I like.

  CR is a part of an interlocking system of rules designed to maintain balance (that is, to maintain every player's fair chance at an equal share of the fun.)

  The experience point rules and CR are interlocking.  If a party of 4 characters takes on 3 challenges equal to it's CR (the combined party's CR) the whole party is likely to level.  But they must take on and win those challenges.  That is an important point, not a truism.  See below.
  A 1st level party of 4 characters takes on a CR 4 challenge.  Then another.  Then another.  They level to 2nd level.
  A 20th level party of 4 characters takes on a CR 80 challenge.  Then another.  Then another.  They level to 21st level.

  That's because the experience point charts grant you more experience for higher CRs, equal experience (relative to levels, of course) for equal CRs, and lesser CRs for lower CRs.  (Your 20th level character can go kill orcs all day, but he'll never gain any experience from it.)

  But ...

  The CR of 4 for that 1st level party, and the CR 80 for that 20th level party, is a CR designed to challenge the players and their characters to the limits of their ability.
  Thus, if players fight amongst each other, argue, refuse to cooperate, are lazy, don't try, knife each other, or otherwise don't work at winning, the party loses and they gain no experience points.  Or worse, characters die and must be resurrected.  Or the ultimate punishment of a total party kill.
  In other words, cooperation is not optional.  It is a requirement.
  This reality is reinforced by the imbalances between characters.  Each has a specialization, and none can succeed alone.  The rules simply do not permit self-sufficient characters against CR challenges equal to their own. (You can go on killing orcs all day at 20th level and be self-sufficient, but you won't gain any experience.  You might as well have retired the character for all your trouble.  If you want to actually gain anything, you must get back into that group and actually try.)

  This rule not only applies to the 1st level party, but it applies to the 3rd level party, the 5th level party, the 7th level party, the 10th level party, the 15th level party, and the 20th level party.  Apparently, it applies to the 30th level party, the 40th level party, and the 100th level party too (if you can find appropriate CR challenges:  thus epic monsters.)

  In other words, nobody gets a free ride.  Nobody is exempt from the necessity of cooperation.   Nobody can escape the imbalance in their character.

  The CR ratings ... that is what the CR ratings are all about.  That is why they exist.
  They exist, along with the 3rd edition experience point charts, to ensure a scenario where the players need to cooperate to advance.
  If the players must cooperate, there is more fun.  If characters are imbalanced, everyone gets their own chance to shine.  If nothing is easy, there is no room for fighting, arguing, backstabbing your party, being lazy, and not doing your best.  You have to pull your weight.

  That's what CR is all about.

  I like it.
  At first, I thought it was ridiculous, but I did not understand it.
  Now, I think it's a great idea.


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## Silveras (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I know every monster template has a CR.  I believe your PC level (character level) is his CR.
> 
> --snip --
> 
> ...




Nope. 
PCs do not have a CR. CR is a rating of how dangerous the creature/trap is. It indicates what level a characters would have a reasonable chance of success. A CR 4 creature is a challenged for a party of 4 4th level characters. It is quite likely to kill at least one, probably two, possibly three or all four of a party of 1st level characters facing it. 

According to the designers, 3rd Edition is designed to require about 13 "appropriate CR" encounters for a party to reach the next level. The DM has some leeway to mix in higher and lower CR encounters, realizing that lower CR = easier, and higher = harder. 

An "appropriate CR" encounter is one equal to the AVERAGE (not SUM) of the character's levels. There is a chart in the DMG (p.49) indicating the relative recommended frequency of easier and harder encounters.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

I realize that worldwide playtesting of 3rd edition went on for many years before 3rd edition was released.
  I realize a truly tremendous amount of thought and effort went into 3rd edition.
  I respect that.  
  I appreciate the 25 Point Buy system.

  I'm just retaining a concept from another time:  the 4d6 roll system.
  It does affect balance (that is, the chance for each player to have a fair chance at an equal share of the fun) and thus it must be considered carefully. 
  You would not want one player doing a point buy of 25, and let a second player roll 4d6, obviously.

  A low charisma is just what you said it is:  a handicap.
  Unfortunately, everyone I played with in tournament play was all too happy to take this handicap.  An unrealistic POV, in my opinion, but in the tournament charisma rarely came into play (there wasn't time for it to come into play.)
  In a campaign in home play, charisma is obviously really going to come into play.  So, unlike tournament play where charisma can be overlooked, the players must consider matters before they leave their charisma at 8.

  In my case ... well ... (grins) ... I'm an old fogey on this one.  
  This is something so ingrained in me from 20 years of play that it's like breathing.
  The 4d6 method is just ingrained.

  -

  For me, learning 3.5 is like learning a foreign language (although not nearly as hard as learning a foreign language.)
  The vocabulary is different (You becomes du, in German.)
  The mindset is different (You never say du to someone in German, unless you are very close to them.  You say Sie, or Ihr.)
  The way of thinking is different:

  I bin, diese Game funf Yahren gelearnen sollen.

  A literal translation is:  I should have learned this game 5 years ago.
  But the actual translation is:  I am, this game 5 years ago, learned should.

  (If that's wrong, I'm sure anyone who really knows his German can correct me, and provide a much better example of the alternate sentence structure and flow of conscious thought, in German, as opposed to English.)

  Well, 3.5 is like that.
  There is new vocabulary.  To hit becomes BAB.
  There are different mindsets.  +5 BAB means 5th level, right?  Yes ... but it means a lot more than that.  It means potential access to Feats, PrCs, possible multiclassing, and a lot more.  And 5th level doesn't mean 5th level fighter necessarily:  it means 5th level character.
  There are profoundly different approaches in thinking.  Those 5 orcs on the hillock are not just orcs (THAC0 20, 5 hit points, AC 4, one attack for 1 to 8 points of damage.)  Those orcs could be wizards, clerics, rangers, assassins, arcane tricksters, or polymorphed monsters of some sort with high DCs.  

  The old illusion spells from 2nd edition (Phantasmal Force, Improved Phantasmal Force, Spectral Force, Advanced Illusion, Permanent Illusion, Programmed Illusion)  allowed you to create a number of monsters equal to your level in hit dice or less.
  In addition, you had to have seen the monster to accurately duplicate it, and to duplicate any of it's attacks, you had to be subject to them fully.

  But in 3rd edition, such a use of Spectral Force (if you brought that spell forward fully) would be different.
  You could, let's say, still create a monster with up to your level in hit dice, if you had seen it, and you could duplicate it's attacks if you had experienced them.
  But could you duplicate it's Feats?  It's skills?  It's spell-like abilities?  You do not have those Feats or skills or spell-like abilities yourself.  Perhaps you can:  perhaps the magic is powerful enough to allow this.  Perhaps you cannot:  perhaps the magic is not sufficient.

  Note that they did not bring Spectral Force in it's old version forward.  Spectral Force can dupe people into seeing what is not there, but it cannot cause people to fall unconscious, thinking they've been killed by an illusory attack.
  But if you DID bring the spell forward, you'd have to translate it ... into a foreign language.  The result might be unbalancing, or not.  I don't know.  The point is, is that you HAVE to translate it into a foreign language.

  For me, the attempt to learn the foreign language of 3rd edition is a process of memorization (as with any foreign language), profound astonishment (they CAN'T do that?!  They can do WHAT?!) and outright humor (An orc!  An orc!  Run for your lives!    )

  I'm guessing that, 5 years ago, all the rest of you went through the same process I'm going through now.
  So humor me here.  
  I'm not dissing 3rd edition, even when it seems I am.  If I AM going to dis it, I'll say so openly, with no humor attacked.  (grins evilly)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

(nods to you,  Silveras)

  Ok, I didn't have the mechanics of CR quite right.
  But I got the spirit of it right, didn't I?  I was right about the concept behind CR, no?


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## Silveras (Dec 18, 2005)

Tiberius said:
			
		

> Doesn't work quite that way.  While the Arcane Archer is capable of using each of those special powers, he can't use them all at once.  Each one requires a standard action to use (probably for the very reason you outlined above).




Also, they are each usable once per day, in many cases. 



			
				Tiberius said:
			
		

> I'm not sure of the rationale, but if I had to guess, I'd give it something like this:
> BAB and save progression do not function as normal under the epic level rules.  Every couple of levels, every epic character gains a +1 epic bonus to their attacks and saves.  These bonuses are different in that, among other things, they never give extra attacks.  So if your BAB at 20 is 20/15/10/5 and you become a 22nd level character, your BAB becomes 21/16/11/6, not 21/26/11/6/1.  Classes based around these (like fighters, monks, rogues, etc.) must use these less favorable bonuses.  If the spellcasting classes continued to progress as they did before the epic levels, it would be unbalancing.  Instead, they get bonus feats more frequently than their counterparts, which enables them to improve themselves every couple of levels like their less-magical friends.




Mostly right, but to clarify, your BAB stops at 20th character level. It NEVER gets any better, and it is used to determine your attacks per round. ALL characters get 1 iterative attack per round per 5 or fraction "points" of BAB. 16-20 gets 4; 11-15 gets 3; 6-10 gets 2; 1-5 gets 1. 

As of character level 21, you stop accumulating Base Attack Bonuses and Base Save Bonuses. You start accumulating both Epic Attack Bonus and Epic Save Bonus. Your Epic Save Bonus applies to all saves. 

The rationale is laid out in a sidebar on p.207 of the DMG (3.5).


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## Silveras (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (nods to you,  Silveras)
> 
> Ok, I didn't have the mechanics of CR quite right.
> But I got the spirit of it right, didn't I?  I was right about the concept behind CR, no?




The big thing about CR is a tool for the DM to know when the encounter is too tough for the party. CR has little to do with making sure every character has a chance to shine, or is tested to the limit of his/her abilities. 

The feeling in 3.5 is that the PCs should be successful most of the time, infrequently at severe risk (15% of the time), and only rarely (5% of the time) so clearly overmatched that it is obvious they should run. Some DMs may feel this is overly generous to the PCs, too deliberately "game designed" as opposed to "story designed". 

To truly make sure that each character in the party gets a chance to shine, and that each is tested to his/her limits, the DM needs more than CR. The DM needs to consider what each character does best, and select a challenge that the other characters cannot handle nearly as well. 

Example: 
To test a party with 1 Fighter, 1 Rogue, 1 Wizard, and 1 Cleric, the DM needs to select "appropriate CR" traps for the Rogue (with detect and disarm DCs that are near the Rogue's total Search and Disable Device modifiers), add "appropriate CR" undead for the Cleric to turn (with numbers and/or HD to make it suitably difficult), "appropriate CR" combatants to challenge the Fighter (something with some useful Feats of its own; the same Undead as used for the Cleric might be used, just with more numbers), and something that the Wizard can't just magic missile away (perhaps a foe with high SR, so the Wizard has to think of a way to use his/her spells indirectly). 

The CR number (and the Encounter Level (EL), which is a combined CR for all the things that come in one encounter; a single thing has an EL equal to its CR) gives you an idea of whether the things you have chosen might be too tough for the party, especially if the Rogue fails to find the trap or the Cleric fails to turn the undead. 

Perhaps the Rogue has put a lot of effort into maximizing Search and Disable Device. If the only traps that the DM can find with Search and Disable DCs in the right range are at CRs 6 or more above the party's level, the DM needs to choose something lesser, and maybe add something to the design to make them harder to find and/or disable. 

In the end, CR and EL are about not ruining the players' fun by accidentally throwing something too tough at them (Mind Flayer against a lone 1st level Fighter) or too easy at them (lone CR 1/2 Orc against a party of 12th level PCs).


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

Ok, fair enough.
  CR is a tool to help the DM.  Heaven knows, the DM has enough to deal with (he does, indeed!) and this makes it easier.
  It helps prevent the DM from accidentally throwing too monumental a challenge at the players, or too weak an encounter.
  That makes sense.

  Remember that, in my examples, I'm not trying to be a DM.  (If I ever DM 3rd Edition, it will be after doing a lot of playing of 3rd Edition as a player.)
  So, my examples do not take balance (a fair chance for every player to have an equal share in the fun) in mind.  They are hypothetical only.  I don't want to concentrate on creating hypothetical balanced encounters for my questions, because I'm rather busy wading through the new rules and mindsets.

  I've read most of the DMG.  I have a LOT of comments and questions.  I will begin with them starting now.


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## Thorin Stoutfoot (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> You would not want one player doing a point buy of 25, and let a second player roll 4d6, obviously.




That's not true. I do that all the time. In my latest campaigns, I'm giving folks a choice: 4d6 drop lowest, or 25 point buy. The two options are balanced enough that different folks choose differently. Those who believe the dice do well for them choose 4d6 (for some the bets pay off, for others the bet doesn't), and others choose 25 point buy. 4d6 does generate characters equivalent to 28 point buy, but the extra control afforded by the point buy method makes it possible to min-max your attributes in a way that the 4d6 method doesn't.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

Ability scores, page 169 of the DMG and onward.

  The Point Buy System:  I think this is great for tournament characters and characters in multi-game and multi-party scenarios (because it equalizes all the characters), but I prefer other methods for home games.
  The Elite Array:  As above.
  The Floating Reroll:  It's a good system.  It is more generous than the simple 4d6 system.  If this method is taken, then PCs are better than ordinary people.
  Organic Character:  LOL.  Take it, and like it.  Or live with it!  
  Customized Average Characters:  If you assume (as I once did in a hypothetical scenario) tha a 13 represents the top 1% of the population, and a 7 represents the bottom 1% of the population, then this system becomes more pronounced.

  Random Average Characters:  When I first started D&D, this is the method I had to use.  And no rerolling characters.  It sometimes stank.  But I rolled Edena the Cleric up this way, and got:  Str 13, Con 10, Dex 6, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 16.  Not bad, eh?  

  High powered characters:  Just that.  But it seems to me that in 3rd Edition, the effects of this system will be more profound than in 2nd Edition.  Of course, if you allow your players to use this system, they probably will be very happy with you.  (chuckles)
  Many, many games I've been in used this system.

  RPGA:  The RPGA has to use the Point Buy system, in order to maintain character equality and fairness.  Whether it's 25 or 32 points, it has to be used.  Simple as that.

  Subraces:  You wouldn't believe how many dwarven subraces there are, on Krynn.  I mean, we all know of the various elven subraces - so many, you have elven subraces coming out of your ears.    High, grey, wood, wild, gold, silver, green, valley, etc.
  But did you know that there are dwarven Hylar, Daewar, Theiwar, Duergar, Klar, Neidar, Aghar, Zhakar, and Smith?  And, of course, there are the Grey Dwarves, which are evil deep dwarves.  And halflings come in varieties too:  tallfellow, stout, deep, and cannabalistic (Athas.)  And we have rock gnomes.  That's a new one on me.  They look like fey, I think.

  Half-humans?  LOL.  Ok, I'd consider them variant half-elves.  If Arilyn Moonflower had been allowed to live on Evermeet, she would have been half-human and not half-elf (and she would not hate Amlaruil's guts ... and I would daresay she is justified in hating Amlaruil's guts ...)

  New Races:

  Play a drow, you're 2nd level.  Become a 1st level fighter, and you're 3rd level.  And you must gain 4,000 experience points to make 2nd level as a fighter.  That's what you get, when you take races with all those neat, special abilities at the start.  Seems fair to me.
  Play a vampire?  LOL.  Start at 8th level, first class makes you 9th.  Nevermind that every cleric in the kingdom wants a stake put through you.
  Now, what would be humorous, is if you had a party with both a paladin and a vampire (a good aligned one) in it.  

  A mind flayer as a PC?
  Who will be on first watch?  
  Mind Flayer:  I'll take first watch!
  Everyone else:  NO.
  (If it's Anabstercorian who is the mind flayer, you're in worse trouble yet ...   )

  Ability Score Equivalencies:

  So charisma is NOT the equal of the other stats.  AHA!  Told you so.  And this gets reflected in where stats are placed.
  I like characters with high charisma, even if it means lowering another stat.

  Intelligence is equal only to Wisdom OR Charisma?  LOLOL.  Give me Intelligence.  It adds to your base skill points, and in any case if you are a good roleplayer, it makes a tremendous difference.  (That's right:  if your character has a 6 intelligence, you shouldn't be roleplaying your character as a genius IMHO ... then again, stupid characters can be a lot of fun if played right ...)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

Each to their own, Thorin.  I believe you.  It's just that, in my experience, 4d6 drop the lowest created characters stronger than 25 Point Buy about 95% of the time.  But that's just my experience.

  Page 173 of the DMG:  A frail race of kindly, beautiful creatures with a +2 bonus to charisma and a -2 penalty to Strength.  I can summarize that race in two words:  HIGH ELVES.


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## Silveras (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Remember that, in my examples, I'm not trying to be a DM.  (If I ever DM 3rd Edition, it will be after doing a lot of playing of 3rd Edition as a player.)
> So, my examples do not take balance (a fair chance for every player to have an equal share in the fun) in mind.  They are hypothetical only.  I don't want to concentrate on creating hypothetical balanced encounters for my questions, because I'm rather busy wading through the new rules and mindsets.




Understood. I am a bit of a martinet on terminology, in large part because I agree with Orwell. He wrote that writing and thinking reinforce and reflect each other. Getting the terminology right helps get the concepts right, and helps with understanding the things that build on it. 

3rd Edition is MUCH better than previous editions about using specialized terminology consistently (not perfect, of course, but much better). When a rule (like a feat or Prestige Class requireent) refers to Base Attack Bonus, they really mean Base Attack Bonus only, not total attack bonus. Likewise, when they refer to skill ranks, they mean ranks, not the total modifier. It is my observation that many accusations that some things are too easy to achieve, or overpowered, stem from people missing this point. 

So I am a stickler for terminology.


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## Silveras (Dec 18, 2005)

*Re: 4d6 vs Point-buy*

Roll 4d6 and keep the best is the standard method for D&D (see the Players' Handbook). 

Point Buy is presented as one of several VARIANT methods in the DMG. 

Use the one you like for your games.


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## William Ronald (Dec 18, 2005)

Silveras said:
			
		

> Roll 4d6 and keep the best is the standard method for D&D (see the Players' Handbook).
> 
> Point Buy is presented as one of several VARIANT methods in the DMG.
> 
> Use the one you like for your games.





I have used both point buy and some of the dice rolling methods discussed in the DMG.  I have had fun with characters created by both sets of rules.

The key thing in a game is to have fun.  I believe that 3.5 promostes this by giving the character choices.

As for the issue of bonus types, there are charts to help DMs and players.  Mind you, I think the different bonus types are a lot less confusing than some of the things I saw in previous editions.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

I'm not messing around with the core classes. (page 174, 175.)  
  With the gestalt rules, though, they might want to rename the core classes, since each core class has the abilities of any two core classes.

  Prestige Classes:

  I like.  I like.  I like.
  Did I mention I like?
  Not because it allows you to be superpowerful (it doesn't.)
  I like it because it allows flavor.
  20 years of coconuts is giving me the fits! said Yosemite Sam.  Well, 20 years of playing Generic Joe Fighter, Generic Joe Mage, Generic Joe Paladin, Generic Joe Monk (gads), Generic Joe Thief, has given me the fits, too.
  Now, I can customize my character, and make him or her more like I imagined him or her to actually BE.  I'm not stuck in a straitjacket.
  It's just a matter of finding the right prestige class, and I know there are hundreds (if not thousands) of them out there to choose from (DM permitting.)

  Arcane Archer:  Ok, she can only use some of her abilities once per day.  But what an ability that is.  If she started as a rogue, it counts as a sneak attack (the poor target in the deepest most protected room of his castle, not expecting an arrow to come flying through the walls, is DEFINITELY denied his Dexterity bonus!!!)
  Being able to produce +5 arrows at will is no small feat.  LOL.
  Being able to put spells on an arrow is no small feat either (the lord in his most heavily concealed room in the entire castle, is hit by the arrow, suffers a sneak attack, AND the fireball detonates to boot.    )

  Arcane Trickster:  As it says, assassins sometimes opt for this class.
  You can stack PrCs indefinitely, and they never count against your limit for multiclassing.
  Otherwise, no comments.  I really have no strong impressions on this PrC.

  Archmage:  This PrC is reserved for high level characters, so I really can't say much about it.  But Arcane Reach is very nice.  Incidentally, does Arcane Fire allow a saving throw?

  Assassin:  He's back.    Evil, low-down, no good, vile, he was kicked out of the game in 2nd edition, but now back with a vengeance.  And he's a lot better than the 1E assassin, I think.  Take out the evil requirement and kill someone requirement, and you could create the D&D equivalent of James Bond.  The Death Attack is a classic.  Study victim, shoot victim, victim dies.  And oh boy, the assassin can use poison!  
  Again, it would be humorous, to see a party with a non-evil assassin and a paladin in it.

  Blackguard:  The Death Knight in training.  Good for evil parties.  Real bad for good parties, rotten for paladins (when you smell the fumes of gasoline, do not light a match ...)

  Dragon Disciple:  For some reason, people like half-dragons.  I never did, but others do.  I guess this is the route for the ordinary character to that end (gaining the Half-Dragon Template.)

  Duelist:  I maintain that the best defense is a good offense, so I would not take this PrC.  After all, if you are not killing the monsters, they ARE killing you and your friends.  Just a thought.
  Now, if there is a PrC out there that allows a really nasty attack AND the ability to gain up to 20 in AC (while attacking) I'll take it!  

  Dwarven Defender:  Dwarves can be paladins in 3rd edition.  But they need not be Generic Joe Paladins.  The Dwarven Defender is an example of the flavor I am talking about.  He's not just a Paladin, he's a Dwarven Paladin.  (Or, at least, something close to that.)

  Eldritch Knight:  The fighter/mage revisited.  Advantage:  You gain the spells and BAB, and the best of the saves of both classes.  Disadvantage:  You don't get the Fighter Feats, Metamagic Feats, or other special class abilities.  

  Hierophant:  The Clerical equivalent of the Archmage.  I like.  Where was this when Edena reached 12th or 13th level?  

  Horizon Walker:  I don't have much to say on this one.  Yes, we did lots of Planar Travel, but things are different in 3rd Edition.

  Loremaster:  I don't see the advantages of this one.  If anyone wishes to point out the nifty benefits of this PrC, please do so.  

  Mystic Theurge:  The cleric/wizard?  Anyone?  

  The Red Wizard:  You don't want to go there, unless it's an evil party.  Circle magic is uniquely Faerunian (witness the Mythals.)  But I wouldn't take this PrC if I was playing an evil character.  Too well known and infamous.  (Every Harper around follows you around like a dog.)

  Shadowdancer:  Could someone explain the merits of this PrC to me?  Their success in using it?  What classes it stacks with nicely?  It seems like a good PrC, but I request input on it.  Anyone?  

  Thaumaturgist:  The Tholian concept was Let's You and Him fight.  That seems to be an especially potent idea in 3rd Edition.  But is it worth it, to become a Thaumaturgist?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

I COMPLETELY agree with you, Silveras, on the use of terminology in 3rd Edition.
  It isn't a good idea to say to yourself:  My attack bonus is +10.  It's a good idea to say:  My base attack bonus is +6, my strength bonus is +3, and my weapon enhancement bonus is +1.

  Just my opinion, but I think you are very right.

  3rd Edition is chalk full of exacting terminology, and if you confuse the terminology, you're heading into quicksand, IMO.  (Uh (player above in a hurry, tired, distracted, new to the game)... I have a +10 to attack ... and, uh ... that's right, I get +6 BAB in addition to that, and didn't I have a +3 sword? ... yeah, and my weapon enhancement bonus is 1  - it must be a masterwork weapon, I forget ... yeah,  it's gotta be, and ... what was I just saying? ... uh yeah, I'm +10 to hit, and another +6 for BAB and +3 for the sword and +1 for masterwork and so I get a +20 to hit!  Wait a minute, it couldn't be +20, for I had a +10 ... uh, if I had a +10, where does my +3 and +1 - it WAS a +1, right? and my +3 for strength, and ...  (The DM sighs and speaks)  Uh Houston, we have a problem ...)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 18, 2005)

Hey there William.  
  What do you think of the PrCs in the DMG?  What comments would you make?  What experiences have you had with how fun and how mechanically effective they are?


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## William Ronald (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Hey there William.
> What do you think of the PrCs in the DMG?  What comments would you make?  What experiences have you had with how fun and how mechanically effective they are?




Hi, Edena.  Good to see this thread is still going strong!   

Generally, I like the PrCs -- especially the Loremaster and the Archmage.  I did have a high level spellcaster who took levels in the Archmage PrC.  The Mastery of Elements ability was very useful for my character, as was Mastery of Shapping.  Spell Power is also somewhat useful to overcome spell resistance.

Arcane Reach can be very effective as touch spells can go up to 30 feet (60 feet if you take the ability twice).  The PrC grants many abilities, but has trade offs as well..

I rather like the Loremaster PrC, as it can be used to model very scholarly characters.  I have seen some good uses of some of the other PrCs such as shadowdancer.


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## BeauNiddle (Dec 18, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> The 'Pity the Poor Bear' scenario.
> 
> When the dire bear approached (but could not yet see into the clearing) Narrin and Claire hid at the edges of the clearing, weapons and spells ready.
> When the bear came into the clearing, both Claire and Narrin attacked by surprise.
> ...




I just thought I'd mention if you sneak attack with a sap the extra damage from sneak attack is considered subdual damage as well.

It's fairly easy for a rogue to knock out opponents.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 19, 2005)

(taking a side jaunt, reading the Book of Exalted Deeds.)

  To make a very, very, very, very long and touchy subject short:

  Good is solidly defined in 3.5.
  It pays to be Good.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 19, 2005)

In my honest opinion ...

  If you use the rules in the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness as written ...

  You need to create 6 new alignments:

  Exalted Lawful Good
  Exalted Neutral Good
  Exalted Chaotic Good
  Vile Lawful Evil
  Vile Neutral Evil
  Vile Chaotic Evil

  No humanoid race is naturally any of these alignments.  Dwarves are lawful good, but not exalted lawful good.  Elves are chaotic good, but they are not exalted chaotic good.  Orcs are chaotic evil, but not vile chaotic evil.  And illithid are lawful evil, but not vile lawful evil.
  Exalted and Vile represent something beyond a normal mortal mentality.  They represent a philosophy and way of life meshed with supernatural and divine force, to produce a being who is supernatural.

  And incidentally, no exalted character would ever allow a prisoner to be taken away to jail, in any of the campaign settings I know of.
  An exalted character, would take a prisoner to an exalted jail or exalted prison (think of a jail so comfortable that it makes a luxury hotel look like a prison in comparison) there to convert the being to good alignment.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Dec 19, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Loremaster:  I don't see the advantages of this one.  If anyone wishes to point out the nifty benefits of this PrC, please do so.




It's not so much the benefits as the lack of drawbacks.  If you're a core arcane spellcaster, you lose essentially nothing by taking a full caster progression class.  Why not gain some interesting abilities and bardic knowledge, provided it fits your character concept?  A wizard loses some metamagic or item creation feats (in practice rarely much of a loss), but a sorcerer loses absolutely nothing.

If your game is 'core only,' you'll likely see a fair number of Wiz/Loremaster/Archmage combos, simply because there's so little mechanical benefit for _not_ following that path.


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## Staffan (Dec 19, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I COMPLETELY agree with you, Silveras, on the use of terminology in 3rd Edition.
> It isn't a good idea to say to yourself:  My attack bonus is +10.  It's a good idea to say:  My base attack bonus is +6, my strength bonus is +3, and my weapon enhancement bonus is +1.



Well, it's a good idea to keep track of both the +10 and the stuff that makes it up. On the character sheet I use it would look something like this:







The +2 under "Enhance" is of course the weapon's enhancement bonus, and the +1 under "Misc" is for Weapon Focus. The value you actually use is the +12, which is why it's in a thicker box.

The sheet in question is the "Ultimate Character Sheet" from http://www.necromancergames.com/freestuff.html, by the way. When you get to higher levels, it's not a bad idea to download the Ultimate Combat Sheet from the same place as well, it makes it easier to keep track of various modifiers.


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## Staffan (Dec 19, 2005)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> It's not so much the benefits as the lack of drawbacks.  If you're a core arcane spellcaster, you lose essentially nothing by taking a full caster progression class.  Why not gain some interesting abilities and bardic knowledge, provided it fits your character concept?  A wizard loses some metamagic or item creation feats (in practice rarely much of a loss), but a sorcerer loses absolutely nothing.



The sorcerer doesn't lose anything by taking Loremaster, but he does have to pay a higher price for it. He needs 10 ranks in two Knowledge skills, three metamagic/item creation feats, Skill Focus (any one knowledge skill), and seven divination spells, at least one of which is 3rd or higher level.

The sorcerer only gets one knowledge skill as a class skill in the first place, so if he wants a realistic chance of getting two at 10 ranks he needs to take at least one level of something else (likely bard or wizard) - or hold off on taking the class until 17th level. And multiclassing as a spellcaster is generally not a good option from a powergamer's perspective, especially not as a sorcerer who already gets his highest-level spells one level after the other three primary caster classes.

Three metamagic/item creation feats basically take up all his feats up to 6th level - the wizard gets Scribe Scroll and one more as bonus feats, so he only has to use one of his "regular" feats on it. And a 6th level sorcerer only knows 14 spells in the first place, one of which is 3rd level - learning the required divination spells will take up half his spell selection. A wizard will pretty much learn seven divination spells without even trying - he gets three for free (_detect poison, detect magic,_ and _read magic_), and getting more spells is a lot easier for a wizard than a sorcerer (a 7th level wizard knows at least 17 spells plus all the 0th level ones, and getting more only costs him 150 gp per spell level).

When all is said and done, the only reasonable way for a sorcerer to become a loremaster in the core rules is to get there as a sorcerer 6/wizard 1 - and if you're going to take wizard levels, you might as well go all-out wizard. That said, it is somewhat easier for a sorcerer to do it in Eberron, where there's a feat that gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills (Education - I'm pretty sure it's around in FR too), which would enable a human sorcerer to enter Loremaster after 7th level, or a nonhuman after 9th.

This pattern can be seen in many other arcane-themed PrCs, but few are so obviously slanted in favor of the wizard over sorcerer.


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## Agemegos (Dec 19, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I withdraw my statement about the usefulness of the DDG Feats.
> Unless you got all the DDG Feats at 1st level (which is totally illegal, not to mention impossible) forget it.  Being a Generalist in 3.5 doesn't pay.




Very true. You can only do one thing at a time. Better to do the same thing well time after time than to do a lot of different things in sequence, all of them badly.

Besides, some of your 'DDG' feats, although their names sound as though they ought to be basic fighting techniques, are in fact quite useless for straight fighters. For example, 'weapon finesse': it sounds as though it ought ot make your attacks more accurate. But in fact for fighters (whose strength should always be higher than their dexterity) it makes their attacks less accurate, and is completely useless.



> Following my logic further, multiclassing is a bad idea.  Someone pointed out fighter/mages stank in 3.5.  It seems I must agree with his assessment.
> The exception to this would be classes that stacked with each other, such as rogue/barbarian (?, or wizard/sorcerer?, fighter/ranger?)  Even then, it sounds risky.




Multiclassing is a really bad idea for sorcerors and wizards. Sorceror/wizard abilities don't stack in auseful fashion (eg. a 10/10 sorc/wiz can cast only 5th-level spells, which aren't going to cut the mustard in a 20th-level threat environment). Fighter and paladin levels stack pretty well (though not as well as they did in 3.0, when paladins were heavily front-loaded). The ranger's special abilities aren't able to be used in the fighter's armour. I think ranger/barbarians might be okay, also ranger/rogues (two-weapon fighting with sneak attack?).

The way I put it is this. Versatility is an expensive luxury in D&D 3.x. You might have to do it if you have to function alone. But you do better to specialise and then buddy up with a group of allies who cover your weaknesses.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 19, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> 3rd Edition is chalk full of exacting terminology, and if you confuse the terminology, you're heading into quicksand, IMO.  (Uh (player above in a hurry, tired, distracted, new to the game)... I have a +10 to attack ... and, uh ... that's right, I get +6 BAB in addition to that, and didn't I have a +3 sword? ... yeah, and my weapon enhancement bonus is 1  - it must be a masterwork weapon, I forget ... yeah,  it's gotta be, and ... what was I just saying? ... uh yeah, I'm +10 to hit, and another +6 for BAB and +3 for the sword and +1 for masterwork and so I get a +20 to hit!  Wait a minute, it couldn't be +20, for I had a +10 ... uh, if I had a +10, where does my +3 and +1 - it WAS a +1, right? and my +3 for strength, and ...  (The DM sighs and speaks)  Uh Houston, we have a problem ...)




Chuckle.  I do have this problem with some of my players, who never put any ranks into Math.  I've got a couple of people who just can't get their bonuses straight, and never are able to remember where certain bonuses came from...so, they're never sure if something new will stack, or not.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 19, 2005)

Agemegos said:
			
		

> Multiclassing is a really bad idea for sorcerors and wizards.




IME, multiclassing is not a great idea, 9 times out of 10.  About the only time I see it as *not* significantly lowering the capability of the PC in question (compared to a single-classed PC of the same level) are:

- If you're multiclassing specifically to meet the requirements for entry into a Prestige Class.  Even then, you are often suffering a short-term "effectiveness loss", in exchange for the promise of the abilities of the PrC later on.

- If a "dip" into another class gives you abilities that complement your primary class.  For example, a bard who takes a level in Sorcerer now can use pretty much any arcane scroll or wand.  Someone earlier in this thread posted how he likes to give fighters several levels in Rogue, providing them with sneak attack without too much of a sacrifice in raw combat power.

As Agemegos notes, multiclassing can be especially painful for spellcasters, as you wind up delaying when you get new levels of spells.  PrCs like Mystic Theurge exist in an attempt to make multiclassed spellcasters a bit more feasible, but you're still delaying when you pick up higher-level spells by several levels.


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## IcyCool (Dec 19, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Arcane Archer:  Ok, she can only use some of her abilities once per day.  But what an ability that is.  If she started as a rogue, it counts as a sneak attack (the poor target in the deepest most protected room of his castle, not expecting an arrow to come flying through the walls, is DEFINITELY denied his Dexterity bonus!!!)
> Being able to produce +5 arrows at will is no small feat.  LOL.
> Being able to put spells on an arrow is no small feat either (the lord in his most heavily concealed room in the entire castle, is hit by the arrow, suffers a sneak attack, AND the fireball detonates to boot.    )




Ranged sneak attack is limited to targets within 30ft.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Arcane Trickster:  As it says, assassins sometimes opt for this class.
> You can stack PrCs indefinitely, and they never count against your limit for multiclassing.
> Otherwise, no comments.  I really have no strong impressions on this PrC.




Arcane Trickster is where you go if you want to go the old thief/wizard route.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Archmage:  This PrC is reserved for high level characters, so I really can't say much about it.  But Arcane Reach is very nice.  Incidentally, does Arcane Fire allow a saving throw?




Arcane Fire requires a ranged touch attack to hit, does not allow a saving throw, and does not allow spell resistance.  It's pretty good.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Dragon Disciple:  For some reason, people like half-dragons.  I never did, but others do.  I guess this is the route for the ordinary character to that end (gaining the Half-Dragon Template.)




And despite the spellcasting requirements to get into the class, Dragon Disciple is a terrific fighter class, and a terrible spellcasting class.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Duelist:  I maintain that the best defense is a good offense, so I would not take this PrC.  After all, if you are not killing the monsters, they ARE killing you and your friends.  Just a thought.
> Now, if there is a PrC out there that allows a really nasty attack AND the ability to gain up to 20 in AC (while attacking) I'll take it!




Take a look at the Bladesinger in Complete Warrior.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Eldritch Knight:  The fighter/mage revisited.  Advantage:  You gain the spells and BAB, and the best of the saves of both classes.  Disadvantage:  You don't get the Fighter Feats, Metamagic Feats, or other special class abilities.




You also still have trouble casting in armor.  Take a look at the Spellsword in Complete Warrior for help on this.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Hierophant:  The Clerical equivalent of the Archmage.  I like.  Where was this when Edena reached 12th or 13th level?




The big difference here is that the Hierophant doesn't advance spellcasting like the Archmage does.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Mystic Theurge:  The cleric/wizard?  Anyone?




They aren't nearly as overpowered as you might first think.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Shadowdancer:  Could someone explain the merits of this PrC to me?  Their success in using it?  What classes it stacks with nicely?  It seems like a good PrC, but I request input on it.  Anyone?




The big benefit here is the Hide in Plain Sight ability.  As long as you are within 10ft. of a shadow (not your own shadow), you can make a hide check as if you were concealed.  Ninja Vanish!


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## kenobi65 (Dec 19, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> {Mystic theurges} aren't nearly as overpowered as you might first think.




Indeed...when that class first came out, I know more than a few players who looked at it and said, "CHEESE!"  I mean, full spellcasting progression in two classes?  Tons of spells?  Must be broken, right?

Not really...

The earliest you can qualify to enter Mystic Theurge is at character level 7 (wizard 3 + cleric or druid 3).  At that point, you're effectively casting spells as a Wizard 4 and as a Cleric (or Druid) 4, and thus have 2nd-level spells for both classes.  At that same point, if you'd single-classed as a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid, you'd have 4th level spells, so you're getting the versatility of two spell lists (and a lot more spells) in exchange for the power level of the higher-level spells...not to mention losing advancement in the non-spell abilities of your base classes (turning undead, wild shape, bonus wizard feats, familiar / animal companion advancement, etc.)

Most opinions I've read recently feel that Mystic Theurge is appropriately powered, if not a little underpowered.  

Also, the feat that makes Mystic Theurge work quite a bit better is Practiced Spellcaster...it increases the effective caster level of a multiclassed spellcaster; in the case above, if the Mystic Theurge above took Practiced Spellcaster twice (once for Wizard, once for Cleric), although he'd still only have 2nd level spells, he'd cast all of his spells as Caster Level 7, rather than Caster Level 4.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 19, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Arcane Archer:  Ok, she can only use some of her abilities once per day.  But what an ability that is.  If she started as a rogue, it counts as a sneak attack (the poor target in the deepest most protected room of his castle, not expecting an arrow to come flying through the walls, is DEFINITELY denied his Dexterity bonus!!!)
> Being able to produce +5 arrows at will is no small feat.  LOL.
> Being able to put spells on an arrow is no small feat either (the lord in his most heavily concealed room in the entire castle, is hit by the arrow, suffers a sneak attack, AND the fireball detonates to boot.    )




For many spells, the imbue arrow ability isn't that great. _Fireball_, for example, already has a significant range - at least 500 feet for a 5th level caster, which means that even with Far Shot, the arcane archer is going to be firing his composite longbow out into the fourth range increment, and incurring a -6 penalty on his attack roll to match that _and_ have to make an attack roll with a spell he otherwise wouldn't need to. In most cases, he would be better off simply casting _fireball_.



> _Duelist:  I maintain that the best defense is a good offense, so I would not take this PrC.  After all, if you are not killing the monsters, they ARE killing you and your friends.  Just a thought.
> Now, if there is a PrC out there that allows a really nasty attack AND the ability to gain up to 20 in AC (while attacking) I'll take it!  _





Most fighting oriented characters should have an AC in the 20s by mid-level anyway.



> _Loremaster:  I don't see the advantages of this one.  If anyone wishes to point out the nifty benefits of this PrC, please do so.  _





A wizard can qualify with minimal effort, and probably has the bulk of the prerequisites without trying by the time he's 7th level anyway. It is a low-cost alternative for wizards.



> _Shadowdancer:  Could someone explain the merits of this PrC to me?  Their success in using it?  What classes it stacks with nicely?  It seems like a good PrC, but I request input on it.  Anyone?  _





It is good at being sneaky in the shadows.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 19, 2005)

(reads and listens to your posts)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 20, 2005)

(I am starting into Magic of Incarnum now.  I will post comments and questions on this book soon.
  To the extent that I could, I have read the PHB and DMG and tried to understand them.  I have read your posts above.  I will make further comments and questions on those.
  The discussion on the Book of Exalted Deeds I have placed in the my other thread, and intend to leave it there.  
  Although I will say once more:  my hat is off to those who wrote the BOED, along with all of those who have written the current 3rd edition system.  My hat's off to all of you.  I am sincerely impressed.  I wish my one vote counted for more:  I wish more people would embrace our Hobby.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 20, 2005)

Player's Handbook:  Polymorph allows you to assume various forms.  It allows the Extraordinary attack forms of the creature, but not any other Extraordinary Abilities.  It allows no Supernatural Abilities.

  I see that the Druid Wildshape is now equivalent to the Polymorph spell.

  What were the Druid Wildshape rules in 3.0?  I don't have 3.0, and wish to compare.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 21, 2005)

Anyone?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 21, 2005)

- - -


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## kenobi65 (Dec 21, 2005)

I don't think size has much to do with your thread slowing down.  You haven't posted many questions in the past day or so, and your current question is going back to 3E (my 3E core books are packed away somewhere; haven't used them in over a year).


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## Silveras (Dec 21, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Player's Handbook:  Polymorph allows you to assume various forms.  It allows the Extraordinary attack forms of the creature, but not any other Extraordinary Abilities.  It allows no Supernatural Abilities.
> 
> I see that the Druid Wildshape is now equivalent to the Polymorph spell.
> 
> What were the Druid Wildshape rules in 3.0?  I don't have 3.0, and wish to compare.




The short answer is: 3.0 Wildshape was also linked to the polymorph spell. 

In 3.0, the spells were still polymorph other and polymorph self. The rules for polymorph self referenced the rules for polymorph other, which were about 2 full columns in the PH. In 3.0, polymorph other was quite generous. The target gained the physical stats and abilities of the new form, but retained its own Type, classes, levels, hit points, spell-casting, and spell-spell-like abilities. It was, in some ways, a great long-lasting "buff" spell to use on your allies (Permanent spell, y'see). Polymorph self was basically polymorph other, but you can keep changing to new shapes during the 1 hour/level duration. 

Polymorph self was revised at least once from the version in the Players handbook (a new "official revised" version appeared in Tome & Blood, for example). 

In 3.5, both spells were re-written. Polymorph other became the 5th level baleful polymorph, and went back to being a "turn him into a frog" spell.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 21, 2005)

Welcome back, all!  
  Hmmm ... what to do, then?  I guess, a House Rule?  The Druid Wildshape allows the druid to gain the physical stats, and all of the Natural, Extraordinary, and Supernatural abilities of the form assumed.  The druid, in turn, retains her Type, classes, levels, hit points, Extraordinary abilities, Supernatural abilities, Spell-like abilities, and all her spell abilities.
  That would keep it otherwise similar to 3.0 Wildshape, no?

  (dark humor)

  I finally read about Taint, in Unearthed Arcana.
  Based on that, I can give an alternate version of what happened in the film Fellowship of the Ring, at the Council of Elrond:

  (Frodo places the ring on the table.  Everyone immediately picks up 3 points of Taint.  And it goes from there ...)

  Gandalf:  Frodo, you take it to Mordor.
  Aragorn:  Gandalf, you take it.
  Gimli:  Legolas, you take it.
  Legolas:  Gimli, you take it.
  (Merry, Pippin and Sam are not present ... now we know the REAL reason why.)
  Boromir:  The men of Minas Tirith cannot be tainted.  Gimme that!

  Elrond:  GET THAT THING OUT OF MY HOUSE.  NOW.


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## Silveras (Dec 21, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Welcome back, all!
> Hmmm ... what to do, then?  I guess, a House Rule?  The Druid Wildshape allows the druid to gain the physical stats, and all of the Natural, Extraordinary, and Supernatural abilities of the form assumed.  The druid, in turn, retains her Type, classes, levels, hit points, Extraordinary abilities, Supernatural abilities, Spell-like abilities, and all her spell abilities.
> That would keep it otherwise similar to 3.0 Wildshape, no?




Hmmm... I have seen some people say they prefer 3.0 Haste to 3.5's modified Haste. I do not think I have seen anyone clamoring for 3.0 polymorph back. If anything, I have seen people who think it needs *more* restrictions/clarification. 

There is a feat, called Natural Spell, that allows a Druid to cast spells while in Wildshaped form. I think Druids are strong enough, by the book, in 3.5, without trying to give them more goodies. There are strong arguments that, in the right campaign, a Druid can often be a more effective >KABOOM< spellcaster than a Wizard or Sorcerer. 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (dark humor)
> 
> I finally read about Taint, in Unearthed Arcana.
> Based on that, I can give an alternate version of what happened in the film Fellowship of the Ring, at the Council of Elrond:
> ...




That's about the size of it. 

By the way, Heroes of Horror expands on the Taint rules. I think I like it.


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## kenobi65 (Dec 21, 2005)

Silveras said:
			
		

> I think Druids are strong enough, by the book, in 3.5, without trying to give them more goodies. There are strong arguments that, in the right campaign, a Druid can often be a more effective >KABOOM< spellcaster than a Wizard or Sorcerer.




I agree with that.  In the 3.0 campaign I ran, in which many of the adventures took place outdoors, or in natural underground settings, the party's druid was generally considered to be the most effective PC in the party.  I don't think anything changed from 3.0 to 3.5 to make me change that assessment.

In the right environment, the druidic "minefield" spells (Entangle, Spike Growth, Stone Spikes) can really make life miserable for opponents.  Call Lightning is actually useful in combat now.  They can be pretty tough.


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## Staffan (Dec 21, 2005)

Silveras said:
			
		

> The short answer is: 3.0 Wildshape was also linked to the polymorph spell.



Wild shape was also rewritten in Masters of the Wild. The rules were also on the WOTC site. These are my favored rules for wild shape, with changes to take into account the changes in stuff like animal sizes, eligibility of dire animals for wild shaping, uses per day, and so on.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 21, 2005)

Ah, thanks for the link there.
  It seems they've regranted the Druid her original Wildshape ability ala 2nd edition (with a pretty much straightforward conversion to 3rd edition.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 21, 2005)

I've read through Magic of Incarnum.
  I'm unclear on what to make of it:  it really is new and different.

  One obvious use, as the book noted, is for a conventional spellcaster to use Incarnum to increase his own power.  That would work especially well with a gestalt character who took as his one class a class that combined both the powers of the wizard and the powers of one of the three incarnum classes.
  It seems to me that the new races are very driven:  the first race mentioned (I cannot remember the name at the moment) reminded me of the Romulans, and the last race mentioned reminded me of the Klingons (just searching for analogies.)  

  The idea that shreds of Incarnum are flying around, attracted to anyone thinking strong thoughts, has a lot of roleplaying implications.
  They detail the Lost, but what about positive shards of soul energy?  What kind of beings are created when positive soul energy strikes a being enveloped by positive thoughts?

  The world is full of powerful emotions.  If it has large amounts of soul energy flying around, the contact between the two could create thousands of new types of viable races, as the contacts alter the original creature into something new and different.
  As an example, perhaps the drow are elves who, during the Crown Wars (which generated a ton of negative emotion if anything did) were struck by negative emotion shards, and thus altered into twisted and evil versions of their former selves:  that is, Dark Elves.

  Any place of concentrated emotions, such as a temple, is going to attract a lot of soul energy of positive and negative kind.  I'd think the clergy would want to place protections around the building and within it, and channels to funnel the soul energy for their benefit.


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## sniffles (Dec 21, 2005)

Silveras said:
			
		

> Hmmm... I have seen some people say they prefer 3.0 Haste to 3.5's modified Haste. I do not think I have seen anyone clamoring for 3.0 polymorph back. If anything, I have seen people who think it needs *more* restrictions/clarification.
> 
> There is a feat, called Natural Spell, that allows a Druid to cast spells while in Wildshaped form. I think Druids are strong enough, by the book, in 3.5, without trying to give them more goodies. There are strong arguments that, in the right campaign, a Druid can often be a more effective >KABOOM< spellcaster than a Wizard or Sorcerer.
> 
> ...



Based on personal experience, I have to agree about druids. Currently one of the campaigns I'm involved in features a gnome druid who is an awesome <KABOOM> spellcaster as you so appropriately put it. He uses _call lightning_ to very good effect. I'm running a druid/ranger myself; equipped with a longspear she is so impressive in combat that I hardly use her spells.


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## DethStryke (Dec 21, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Based on personal experience, I have to agree about druids. Currently one of the campaigns I'm involved in features a gnome druid who is an awesome <KABOOM> spellcaster as you so appropriately put it. He uses _call lightning_ to very good effect. I'm running a druid/ranger myself; equipped with a longspear she is so impressive in combat that I hardly use her spells.




My wife ran a 3.0 druid with a longspear. Having that reach and combat reflexes can be leveraged to great effect for the dexterity enhanced.  3.5 is suited for this even more, so you must be laying waste to the enemy with that character!

I myself was playing a Fighter/Rogue with a Bastard sword and combat reflexes. We once went back to back and decimated waves of cultists when they rushed us. They were mostly commoners, but even with 8hp, numbers can overwhelm. We weren't so high level that they couldn't have hit us without a 20.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 21, 2005)

REQUEST:

  I have a request:  show me your munchkin 3rd edition characters.

  When 3rd edition first came out, I saw a lot of these here on ENWorld, in a lot of threads.  But I could not understand what I was reading.  I did not understand the terminology.
  Now I can.  Now it makes sense.

  I wish to understand what you did, how you built characters with +50 AC or +50 attacks or +50 skills or 1,000 points per damage per round.

  In cases where you have produced very extreme results, could you show the Feat/skill/class/PrC/magical item/incarnum item/psionics/psionic item/other progression you followed to achieve the result?

  I'm not looking for characters above 30th level here, because most of the munchkinized characters (as you'all would say) presented back in 2000 and 2001 were below 30th level.
  And obviously, considering what I'm seeing on the SRD (I am actually reading it now) it would not be difficult to achieve extreme results with character levels above 30.
  You were doing it with character levels 15, 10, 5, 3, and even 1st.

  Use any WOTC 3rd edition or 3.5 edition supplement, or d20 supplement you please.  Just tell me if you are using a d20 supplement outside of the WOTC 3.5 supplements, and what they are?

  Anyone?


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## sniffles (Dec 22, 2005)

I don't think of my characters as particularly munchkin-y, but when I get home I can put my 10th level fighter/Tempest on here. But my most munchkin-y characters are definitely not done with the Rules As Written - I have a GM who loves to hand out extra feats like candy.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 22, 2005)

(genuinely curious)

  Sniffles, how do you handle Feats in your game, then?
  How many do you allow your players to take?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 22, 2005)

(is busy reading the  Complete Warrior, Arterial Strike)

  (gives Lidda, at 12th level, Quick Draw, Flick of the Wrist, Arterial Strike)

  Narrin:  Die, assassin!
  Narrin:  (attacks, misses)

  Lidda:  Draws her short sword +2 with Quick Draw and Flick of the Wrist, gains an immediate Sneak Attack right in Narrin's face.  Rolls:  9 (a hit.)  Damage:  1-4 +3, +5d6.  3 (+3), 5, 5, 1, 4, 3.  24 points.  Narrin drops from 42 to 18 hit points.  Narrin now starts bleeding to death, his throat slashed, at the rate of 1 hit point per round.  Narrin doesn't having the Healing skill.

  Narrin:  URK.

  Lidda:  Makes her other allowed melee attack (she has 2 for a Full Round Attack)
  9.  Hits.  5 more points, dropping Narrin to 13 points.  

  Lidda:  Indeed, brigand.


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## Silveras (Dec 22, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Ah, thanks for the link there.
> It seems they've regranted the Druid her original Wildshape ability ala 2nd edition (with a pretty much straightforward conversion to 3rd edition.)




This is where order of publication becomes important. If you are using 3.5 rules, they supercede those in Masters of the Wild. MoW is a 3.0 book.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 22, 2005)

(Wield Oversized Weapon, Epic)

  I pick up that 30 foot long greatsword - that weighs 150 pounds - yonder, and wield it one-handed.  At only a -2 penalty for one size class difference.
  And I pick up that Huge Heavy Mace, too, and wield it in my off-hand.

  (Huge Greatsword becomes Large Greatsword.  Greatsword is Two-Handed, becomes One-Handed, as per Feat.)
  (Huge Heavy Mace becomes Large Heavy Mace.  Heavy Mace is One-Handed, becomes Light, as per Feat.)

  NOW, I start whacking those orcs with my Great Cleave!


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 22, 2005)

That's ok, I'm sure they're revert Wildshape again.
  If they don't, the Druid has so many Feats to augment Wildshape I can't shake a stick at them all.


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## Silveras (Dec 22, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (Wield Oversized Weapon, Epic)
> 
> I pick up that 30 foot long greatsword - that weighs 150 pounds - yonder, and wield it one-handed.  At only a -2 penalty for one size class difference.
> And I pick up that Huge Heavy Mace, too, and wield it in my off-hand.
> ...




IF the character is Large, that is. 

Huge Greatsword, Wield Oversize Weapons Feat
Huge, 2 Handed Weapon
Feat changes it to Large, 1 Handed Weapon. 
Medium wielder takes -2 penalty _and increases the effort 1 category_ from 1-handed to 2-handed again. (see p.113 of the Players' Handbook)
Large wielder uses it with no penalty. 

Huge Heavy Mace, Wield Oversize Weapons Feat
Huge, 1-Handed weapon
Feat changes it to Large, Light weapon
Medium Wielder takes -2 penalty _and increases the effort 1 category_ from light to 1-handed again.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 22, 2005)

Ok, fair enough.  Still dastardly, though.
  Of course, an Enlarge Person would be useful in combination with this feat ...

  (Thinks of an ancient Dragon with Enlarge Monster on it, and shudders)


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## Staffan (Dec 22, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Based on personal experience, I have to agree about druids. Currently one of the campaigns I'm involved in features a gnome druid who is an awesome <KABOOM> spellcaster as you so appropriately put it. He uses _call lightning_ to very good effect. I'm running a druid/ranger myself; equipped with a longspear she is so impressive in combat that I hardly use her spells.



IMC, the druid briefly got his hand on a lesser rod of maximize (he unfortunately died soon after). Maximize is very good in combination with call lightning.


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## sniffles (Dec 22, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> (genuinely curious)
> 
> Sniffles, how do you handle Feats in your game, then?
> How many do you allow your players to take?



Well, it's not "my" game in the sense that I'm just another player, not the GM - I've only dabbled my toes in the GM pool a couple of times.   

But to answer your question, my friend just feels that the RAW doesn't allow enough feats, so he's decided to allow PCs in his game to have more feats than would normally be allowable. He really hasn't set a specific number; he just told us to pick things we thought would add to the flavor of the characters. If anyone got carried away he would tell that player to trim the list a bit. He did restrict most of the feats to things that don't add to combat abilities, so they are predominantly skill feats or other types of enhancements. Our characters are supposed to be blessed by their patron deity, which accounts for part of that. He also allowed us each to randomly take a Heroic Path from the *Midnight* setting (an OGL product, not D&D), which gives us each a string of extra feats and special abilities in addition to our class abilities. I think my 4th-level bard has about 10 feats, not including the stuff from the Heroic Path. So I guess some people might consider that character pretty munchkined.   

That's a pretty extreme way of making a PC, at least in my experience. The other GMs I regularly game with don't allow such bending of the rules. Getting back to my 10th-level fighter, who's made with a fairly strict interpretation of the rules, here's a writeup of his abilities, skills, feats, and equipment:
*Note: this character was created using the dice-roll method, but the GM allowed us to roll 5d6 for 2 ability scores, and we were permitted to apply the results in whatever order we chose.*

*Telemnar*, male sun elf (Forgotten Realms), level 10 (fighter 8/Tempest 2)
STR 18 (+4), DEX 17 (+3), CON 14 (+2), INT 12 (+1), WIS 15 (+2), CHA 12 (+1)

FORT +11, REF +5, WILL +4, BAB +10/+5 (melee +14, ranged +13)
AC 18 (touch 13, flatfooted 14)  HP 88, Initiative +3, speed 30'

Armor & weapons:
+3 goblin-bane longsword +15/+10, dmg. 1d8+4 (+2d6 vs. goblins)
+1 shortsword +15/+10, dmg. 1d6+2
Compound longbow +13/+8, dmg. 1d8+4
+1 Chain shirt

Class Skills: Balance +3, Climb* +6, _Diplomacy +2_, Handle Animal +9, Intimidate +5, Jump* +7, _Knowledge (religion) +1_, Profession (horse trainer) +8, Ride +13, Swim* +4, Tumble* +3  *physical skills not modified for encumbrance*  _skills in italics are not class skills - I'm preparing him for another prestige class_

Feats/_special abilities_:
Quick Draw, Animal Affinity, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword), Mounted Combat, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, _Tempest Defense_, _Ambidexterity_, elven racial abilities

Magic items (other than armor/weapons):
Locket +2 vs. fear and emotion control, potion of _silversheen_, potion of _bull's strength_, _everburning_ coin, potion of _cure light wounds_, potion of _cure moderate wounds_

*Aratan*, light warhorse
STR 15 (+2), DEX 14 (+2), CON 18 (+4), INT 2 (-4), WIS 13 (+1), CHA 6 (-2)

FORT +10, REF +5, WILL +3, BAB +4, AC 14, HP 43, Initiative +1, speed 65'

Hooves (x2) +4, dmg 1d4+2; Bite -1, dmg 1d3+1

Listen +6, Spot +6

Special abilities: Scent
Tricks: Attack, Come, Defend, Down, Guard, Heel

Elven saddle (+2 to Ride)

Hope this contains some useful information for you, Edena.


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## Razz (Dec 22, 2005)

I haven't read much of this thread. It's grown rather big and only started a couple of weeks ago!

But *Edena of Neith*, welcome to 3rd Edition (and revised to 3.5) and I hope you enjoy it! It offers tons of what I like to call "fun fun fun optional options!". The game is very flexible now and a lot more fun and easier than 2E was. More concise and detailed, as well. Though the more books you purchase, the broader the options. It's great, but could give you a headache as in my case (I own most of the 3E books and supplements made by WotC and also for the Forgotten Realms setting), but at least the information you need is there on the shelf.

Though some would complain more options means more min-maxing, if a player likes to min-max than so what? As a DM, his/her job is to make the players happy. I have had a mix of player types in one group. The min-maxer, the power gamer, the role player. And the new options in the game is useful to all player types. 

I suggest you subscribe to Dragon Magazine for more options and guidelines to how to run your own campaign or play your character, and to Dungeon if you ever wanted an adventure ASAP and you don't have time to make your own.

But in any case, enjoy 3rd Edition! Unearthed Arcana & 3rd Party Products pretty much made the game into a 4th Edition if you use those, thanks to the fact that you could substitute what's in there with the core rules of the game. There's also an innumerable line of 3rd party products you could purchase as well to enhance your games.


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## Razz (Dec 22, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Welcome back, all!
> Hmmm ... what to do, then?  I guess, a House Rule?  The Druid Wildshape allows the druid to gain the physical stats, and all of the Natural, Extraordinary, and Supernatural abilities of the form assumed.  The druid, in turn, retains her Type, classes, levels, hit points, Extraordinary abilities, Supernatural abilities, Spell-like abilities, and all her spell abilities.
> That would keep it otherwise similar to 3.0 Wildshape, no?




You might not want to do that as it would unbalance the game. 3E likes to try and keep a balance with PCs and the creatures they battle.

For example, no one wants to have the 4th-level paladin with his +5 holy avenger running around with them, and they're all either wielding masterwork or +1 weapons, at most.

I believe druids have access to spells that can change their shape and grant them all the natural and extraordinary abilities of the creature assumed. As for supernatural and spell-like abilities, I believe there was a feat for druids that could do that. And if so, I'm sure it was an epic feat (Epic being, I'm sure you know by now, levels beyond 20).

You could do whatever you wish, though. It's your game. However, if you give druids that powerful of a wildshape, you should mark off some of their other abilities, or decrease their number of spell slots by 1 per spell level to balance the class out.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 23, 2005)

To Razz and Sniffles:

  Razz, I have a question.
  Aside from taking the two flaws as per Unearthed Arcana, and the obvious tactic of gaining fighter levels, how does one legally increase the number of feats one can take for one's character?

  Sniffles, how does the Heroic Path work, in your DM's game?  What are it's benefits (including feat progressions) and drawbacks?

  (just asking questions, once more.)

  Thank you for the warm welcome, Razz.


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## sniffles (Dec 27, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Sniffles, how does the Heroic Path work, in your DM's game?  What are it's benefits (including feat progressions) and drawbacks?
> 
> (just asking questions, once more.)



We added the Heroic Paths to our game to give our characters something special. They have received "blessings" from their deity (a homebrew deity the GM created). We spent a lot of time trying to figure out just how to do this. The deity is draconic, so we considered using the draconic bloodline from _Arcana Unearthed_, but we felt that was too limiting as it meant that everyone would get the same benefits. We wanted more variety, and the GM wanted more randomness (he likes randomness). We each randomly rolled for a choice from a predetermined selection of Heroic Paths - there were a few the GM didn't want to include. 

The Heroic Paths give special abilities at every level. Some of these are similar to existing feats, some are not. As I stated previously, he's also allowing extra feats, though not at every level. My character is a bard with the Quickened Heroic Path, so for example she gets an increased base speed at certain levels. She also has a special ability called Burst of Speed that allows her an extra action per round, once per day, and leaves her fatigued afterward. As she increases in level her base speed will continue to improve, her number of Bursts of Speed per day will increase, and she'll also get an occasional increase to her Dex ability score. Other characters get Charisma boosts or the ability to have natural weapons, for example, depending on what Path they have. One player even has two Paths as the result of a random die roll (receiving a Path in our campaign works a bit like the Quickening in the Highlander movies, if you're familiar with that). 

I don't personally feel that this is at all unbalancing to our campaign. It makes each character unique and special, since we are the heroes of this campaign. But our party is made up of a bard, a bard/marshal, a druid/sorcerer and a ranger/warlock, so we're not exactly a "standard" adventuring group. This particular campaign is more about roleplaying than killing monsters and taking their stuff.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 27, 2005)

Thank you, Sniffles.  Thanks much.

  Seems to me that if I can build a decent base character, then if the DM wants to house rule the goodies on top of that, that's frosting on the cake.
  But, of course, I have to build a decent character first (rueful look)


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## William Ronald (Dec 28, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Thank you, Sniffles.  Thanks much.
> 
> Seems to me that if I can build a decent base character, then if the DM wants to house rule the goodies on top of that, that's frosting on the cake.
> But, of course, I have to build a decent character first (rueful look)





Well, I think one thing to consider is how a character can work with ther rest of a party.  I made a few comments on the Gwendilyn thread in the Rules forum.

Perhaps one thing to remember is that characters will have different roles in a group.  So, some degree of focus is important.   Also, there are a lot of things that characters can do to increase their effectiveness.   For example, characters can use reach weapons and missile fire to attack their foes at a distance.  Or characters can find ways to enhance each other, by focusing on creating flanking bonuses or even having a few scrolls on hand to buff up allies.   (An enlarged, raging barbarian with a bull's strength on him can be a powerful ally.)


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## sniffles (Dec 28, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> Thank you, Sniffles.  Thanks much.
> 
> Seems to me that if I can build a decent base character, then if the DM wants to house rule the goodies on top of that, that's frosting on the cake.
> But, of course, I have to build a decent character first (rueful look)



Well, I haven't looked at your character builds yet, but I don't think there's such a thing as a useless character. It's all in what you want out of that character, what the campaign is all about, and as William Ronald says, what role your character plays in the party. 

My friend who GMs the campaign I described previously has long wanted to play a rogue with points in lots of knowledge skills - basically a know-it-all who probably wouldn't be any good at typical rogue skills like Open Lock or Sleight of Hand. But even a character like that can still Aid Another or provide a flanking bonus, as William Ronald points out. He could carry lots of useful equipment, too, or if he had lots of ranks in Bluff or Diplomacy he could be the "face" of the party when meeting with NPCs. That same friend is playing a character in a pick-up game who changes class every level. My friend is doing that just because it's fun for him. I myself once ran a rogue/sorcerer who had only a 6 STR. You can make any character work if you try.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Dec 28, 2005)

I agree.
  I just feel an obligation to build the best character I can, using what I know.  I have taken the role of student on this thread (and other threads too) and a student is required to make the best effort he can.  If he does not, he wastes his time and the time of his instructors (and, he flunks the test.    )
  Yeah, I'm trying.  I end up with this stack of books open on my desk.  Sometimes books sit on books, open.  Other times they are on the floor, or in my lap.  It's a scene straight out of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where Buffy, Giles, and the group are doing intensive research on vampires/demons/otherworldly monsters/Glory.
  Which is why I make such ridiculous mistakes as forgetting that you only do 1/2 strength damage on your off-hand.  I'm so focused on the tree, that I can't see the forest.  Ah, the joys of PRACTICE (practice means, you just know such things as that automatically.)

  I feel it's audacious to the point of ridiculousness for me to create a 9th level character, yet you saw Gwendilyn at 9th level.  That's because she was a hypothetical character only.  I wouldn't actually sit at a game and play her.  I haven't earned that right.  That right comes through play.
  If that sounds phony, when I started this game in the late 70s, a friend accidentally left me a 5th level canned character.  I thought he had given me a big gift.  I actually called him to thank him for the enormous gift.  None of my characters had progressed past 1st level (most, had died in their first encounter.)

  Now, you know about my high level character, Edena the cleric.  But you don't see me trying to create him.  Not even at 1st level.  That's for the good reason I can't create him at 1st level:  I would dishonor the character if I tried.  Until I learn how to create clerics properly, I would not so dishonor Edena the cleric as to try to create him!
  As for creating him at his high level, that will never happen.  Not, at least, until I have throughly mastered the epic rules and played a number of characters of 40th level or higher.  In other words, not for a long time.

  Anyways, it is my job to create the best characters I can.  If I fall short, and they are still playable, that's good.  But I'm wasting your time (in reading my posts) if I don't do my best, to create the best characters I can.  It's not about min/maxing.  It's about effort and work.  Lots and lots of work.


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## sniffles (Dec 29, 2005)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I agree.
> I just feel an obligation to build the best character I can, using what I know.  I have taken the role of student on this thread (and other threads too) and a student is required to make the best effort he can.  If he does not, he wastes his time and the time of his instructors (and, he flunks the test.    )
> Yeah, I'm trying.  I end up with this stack of books open on my desk.  Sometimes books sit on books, open.  Other times they are on the floor, or in my lap.  It's a scene straight out of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where Buffy, Giles, and the group are doing intensive research on vampires/demons/otherworldly monsters/Glory.
> Which is why I make such ridiculous mistakes as forgetting that you only do 1/2 strength damage on your off-hand.  I'm so focused on the tree, that I can't see the forest.  Ah, the joys of PRACTICE (practice means, you just know such things as that automatically.)



That's not a ridiculous mistake - I ran my fighter for several levels with the wrong damage bonus written on his sheet for his off-hand weapon!!   



> I feel it's audacious to the point of ridiculousness for me to create a 9th level character, yet you saw Gwendilyn at 9th level.  That's because she was a hypothetical character only.  I wouldn't actually sit at a game and play her.  I haven't earned that right.  That right comes through play.
> If that sounds phony, when I started this game in the late 70s, a friend accidentally left me a 5th level canned character.  I thought he had given me a big gift.  I actually called him to thank him for the enormous gift.  None of my characters had progressed past 1st level (most, had died in their first encounter.)



Yeowch!! 



> Now, you know about my high level character, Edena the cleric.  But you don't see me trying to create him.  Not even at 1st level.  That's for the good reason I can't create him at 1st level:  I would dishonor the character if I tried.  Until I learn how to create clerics properly, I would not so dishonor Edena the cleric as to try to create him!
> As for creating him at his high level, that will never happen.  Not, at least, until I have throughly mastered the epic rules and played a number of characters of 40th level or higher.  In other words, not for a long time.
> 
> Anyways, it is my job to create the best characters I can.  If I fall short, and they are still playable, that's good.  But I'm wasting your time (in reading my posts) if I don't do my best, to create the best characters I can.  It's not about min/maxing.  It's about effort and work.  Lots and lots of work.



But first and foremost, it should be about fun!!


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