# Kingmaker: Your City and Kingdom



## TarionzCousin (Mar 11, 2012)

*Spoiler Alert:* This thread contains spoilers for the Kingmaker Adventure Path. 

The finished map from _*Kingmaker: The Stolen Lands*_ is below. I couldn't get the resolution any higher, but maybe that's a good thing. People who have already played the first module should recognize what things are, and people who haven't might not be able to discern what the writing says. 

I began labeling all of the hexes, but stopped. Hexes continue in the pattern implied, so Oleg's Outpost is in Hex A5.

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[[/sblock]

Please reply and list:
1. Where your group built your first city and why;
2. The name of your first city and why;
3. The name of your kingdom and why you chose it;
4. What you developed/built first; and
5. Whatever else you deem relevant, such as the locations of any subsequent cities or important structures.


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## TarionzCousin (Mar 11, 2012)

My group's choices, so far. We are nine months into the building phase of the second Kingmaker module.*

1. Our first city is located inside the bend of the river at the conjunction of hexes C7, D7, and D8--upriver a bit from Nettle's Crossing. Defensability was our first reason. The city is within reach of the Sootscale Caverns, too, for mining silver, tin, copper, etc.

2. Ravengard. We had an extremely difficult time choosing names. The city was called "Riverbend" for the first two sessions but everyone knew that was a temporary name. Ultimately, we settled on the raven because its heraldic charge meaning is "One who, having derived little from his ancestors, has through Providence become the architect of his own fortunes."

3. Viridian. The word is a synonym of "green," and we struggled for almost a month before choosing this. 

4. We first built a road to Oleg's. At the same time we built a couple farms and began work on a watchtower and bridge. Aside from some more farms and housing, we subsequently aired out the Sootscale caverns so they could be mined, built up the entrance for defense, and built a road there from our city.

5. We are halfway done with a church in town, just finished a brewery, and will finish our first tavern next session.

*I should note that our DM designed his own rules for building, based on the given rules but altered almost beyond recognition. They are significantly more complex and flexible.


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## Crothian (Mar 12, 2012)

TarionzCousin said:


> 1. Where your group built your first city and why;
> 
> WE built on the Staglord Fort.  We like the area, we liked that it is on the water and has a big lake there, plus we got a free Castle for building there.
> 
> ...


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## Jacob Marley (Mar 12, 2012)

1. Where your group built your first city and why? We built our first city at the Stag Lord's keep. Our first priority was to find a defensible location; our second was trade and commerce. The Stag Lord's keep -- we felt -- was a was a very defensible location due to it's location near the lake AND due to it's location on the lake, it would eventually become a center of commerce along the waterways.

2. The name of your first city and why? Summit. We kept referring to the Greenbelt as the Grainbelt and decided to go with a beer-themed kingdom.

3. The name of your kingdom and why you chose it? Grainbelt. See above. (Our kingdom was also ruled by a Grand Poobah. So, I guess, we had ourselves a grand poobahdom. )

4. What you developed/built first? We figured that any threats to our kingdom could be handled by our party, npc allies and hirelings so our priority was to ramp up our economy. 

5. Whatever else you deem relevant, such as the locations of any subsequent cities or important structures. We built a second city at Nettle's Crossing that we named Newcastle and a road to connect to Oleg's. Unfortunately, the game came to an end not long after we built Newcastle.


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## Lwaxy (Mar 12, 2012)

1. Where your group built your first city and why

Stag Lord's Keep, same reason as above. 

2. The name of your first city and why

Refuge. We wanted it to be a refuge for all those who had no peace in other lands. 

3. The name of your kingdom and why you chose it

Kingdom of the Holy Might. Mostly dedicated to Iomedae and Desna, our clerics kind of insisted in that name. 

4. What you developed/built first

We went to boost economy first. didn't get much further yet.


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## TarionzCousin (Mar 13, 2012)

After reading these posts, I'm feeling a bit put off. See, my DM didn't give us the option to build our first city on the Stag Lord's Keep. He drew up a huge map and that place was expressly off the edge of the paper. 

I didn't even know that location was an option until I read your replies. It's the obvious starting location.


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## Lwaxy (Mar 13, 2012)

Yeah it is very obvious. I wonder if anyone who was given the option build anywhere else.


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2012)

I wanted to build on the abandon temple to Erastil because I'm playing a Paladin of Erastil but was out voted.


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## Kaodi (Mar 13, 2012)

I kind of feel like the Temple of Erastil, while thematic, is an absolutely horrible place to build your first settlement. You really need to be able to turn your second claimed hex into a farm, and you cannot do that from there. Oleg's Trading Post, or anywhere in the plains, is not too bad, because you can get your first settlement moving a little faster, and cheaper farmlands are immediately available. The Stag Lord's Fort really is the best spot though, by a fair amount. It has everything you need.


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## Spatula (Mar 13, 2012)

You also get a lot more mechanical benefits from building on the Stag Lord's fort vs any other site. 1/2 cost castle, and I think +1 econ & stability?


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## GlassEye (Mar 13, 2012)

1. Where your group built your first city and why.

Our group built our first city north of Oleg's but we're running Kingmaker with a highly modified story and map.  In short, the original characters (we started with five, two died in the assault on the stag lord's keep and we've had four new players join our group and one quit; so we now stand at eight players) are the children of the adventurers originally hired to map and settle the region.  They ultimately failed in their duty but did settle in a village leaving the politics behind and raising families.  It wasn't too long into book one that one of the characters found the charter to settle and took up the responsibilities that their parents set aside.
[sblock=map]


[/sblock]2. The name of your first city and why;

Our first city was named Langton.  No reason really.

3. The name of your kingdom and why you chose it;

The Kingdom.  Because we couldn't come to a consensus on what we wanted to call it.

4. What you developed/built first;

We built an inn first.  The characters felt a place to meet regularly was important.

5. Other stuff.

We couldn't see the sense in not allowing any benefit (other that a settlement) in a hex 12 miles across so we instituted the following rule: As long as a settlement remains one district or smaller then that hex can still benefit from farmlands.  We think it will encourage the settlement of small towns and villages and hopefully in the future let us divvy up territory as dukes, etc.  Right now our politics/rulership (we have three queens & a council) are strongly influenced by the 'Old Ways' (worship of Erastil) but there is a new faction arrived in town from Restov that includes a priest and paladin (pc) of Abadar.


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## TarionzCousin (Mar 15, 2012)

GlassEye said:


> [sblock=map]
> 
> 
> [/sblock]2. The name of your first city and why;
> ...



Are you sure it wasn't named "Lang*S*ton"? 


For my group, defensibility was foremost in our thoughts. We're all "survivors" of a killer DM who, when he ran this module, had three 7th level Trolls ambush us at 1st level... among other things. Why yes, since you asked: all of his games *do* end with TPK's.


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## Kaodi (Mar 18, 2012)

Speaking of kingdoms... I have not seen the rules for raising armies, as I only have the first two modules. But if paying for armies without selling magic items generated by your shops is problematic, do you think it would be possible to just alter the costs of armies, not be able to sell those items, and still have kingdom expansion work just fine?


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## Kaodi (Mar 19, 2012)

Anyway, slightly more on topic: If you would count solo games that I was just running for myself, my second attempt at kingdom building was a game where my characters had started out as bandits who had actually ambushed and killed the original party sent from Restov, taking their charters. 

As Brevoy is kind of Slavic, or close to it, I used Slavic names for my characters, which were a female human rogue (the eventual ruler), her ranger brother, and their half-elf barbarian uncle. The fourth character was a cleric of Norgorber who was their "hotline to the divine" . The family name of the siblings was Sokol, which means "hawk" , and the ranger did indeed have a hawk for his animal companion. Their kingdom was named Sokolia, their capital city Sokolgrad, which was founded at the Stag Lord's Fort (they also retained the services of Akiros, Fat Norry, and Topper Red I believe). The for itself was renamed The Hawk's Nest. Maybe not the _most_ imaginative stuff, but it fit together.

Unfortunately, I lost interest in playing that party when they encountered the tendriculous, which would have been a futile fight as they little fire and were all about stabby and cutty weapons. I guess I figured that even if they survived, it was only going to get worse.


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## S'mon (Mar 19, 2012)

Anyone else think it's really weird that 1st level PCs are sent into the wilderness to found a new kingdom?  I guess this is an issue with APs always starting at 1st level; it seems at least a mid-level sort of goal to me.  If it were *that* easy, some higher level guys would have already done it!


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## IronWolf (Mar 19, 2012)

S'mon said:


> Anyone else think it's really weird that 1st level PCs are sent into the wilderness to found a new kingdom?  I guess this is an issue with APs always starting at 1st level; it seems at least a mid-level sort of goal to me.  If it were *that* easy, some higher level guys would have already done it!




It starts with simply the permission to explore and chart the region and eliminate any bandit threats. The characters will be higher level when the actual Kingdom building portion starts.  The character's party also wasn't the only group sent out to begin these explorations.

But yeah, there is always that sense of "why not get someone higher level than us to help you?" with RPGs in many cases!


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## Kaodi (Mar 19, 2012)

IronWolf said:


> It starts with simply the permission to explore and chart the region and eliminate any bandit threats. The characters will be higher level when the actual Kingdom building portion starts.  The character's party also wasn't the only group sent out to begin these explorations.
> 
> But yeah, there is always that sense of "why not get someone higher level than us to help you?" with RPGs in many cases!




It should probably also be mentioned that the PCs are only one of four groups sent to explore various parts of the Stolen Lands. Some of those other groups very much were higher level.


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## Evilhalfling (Mar 19, 2012)

> Please reply and list:
> 1. Where your group built your first city and why;
> 2. The name of your first city and why;
> 3. The name of your kingdom and why you chose it;
> ...




In a solo game:
1. in the stag lords fortress the castle was too good to pass up. 
2. Jerburg - for Lord Jeremy, the highest charisma (ie ruler) PC
3. erm I don't have that in my records.  Not sure it got named 
4. after the castle built a Shop and an Inn mostly to increase Economy, I liked to have the economy check succeed on 3-5 or better.  The shrine was an attempt to start selling items, it failed miserably.  Selling 3 BP worth of items before they built a casters tower in month 25.

After 1 year: 
Size 6, 1 city districts, 5 farms  
Buildings: Castle, Inn, shop, shrine, 4 houses, 

After 2 years:
Size 11, 2 city districts, 8 farms 
Added : watchtower, tannery, smithy, noble villa, brothel, exotic craftsman, 1 house 


Tazaleford founded month 19, 
*Rivers run Red* ended month 27 
Gateway founded month 34 (Olegs Inn location) 
*Varnhold vanishing * began month 44

_EDIT : Loyalty seemed useless, but it worked well if all random events used loyalty checks to avoid instead of stability checks._

The most fun was when I added Cousin Laura (chr 16) and the idiot-brother-n-law (IBNL) to help rule the kingdom. 2 random disasters were blamed on the IBNL and he was moved to a different position after each failure.  IBNL had +3 str mod, but a -1 incompetence penalty.


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## Kaodi (Mar 19, 2012)

Also, regarding the OP, why would you not think that the top line of hexes are part of the map that can be settled? The blank hex map in the Player's Guide has enough spaces for those to be included, so I would wonder why it would somehow be discounted. In fact, I think it points to every hex that is more than 75% on the map as being part of the map. If the concern is that this does not quite make sense, given the placement of the South Rostland Road, keep in mind that the entirely of the Stolen Lands was considered to be part of Rostland, so having part of a highway fall in what is supposed to be an allied kingdom is probably no biggie...


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## TarionzCousin (Mar 20, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> Also, regarding the OP, why would you not think that the top line of hexes are part of the map that can be settled?



I'm not running the AP; I'm playing in it. My info comes from our DM... who also excluded the Stag Lord's fortress/hex from our map.


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## IronWolf (Mar 20, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> Also, regarding the OP, why would you not think that the top line of hexes are part of the map that can be settled? The blank hex map in the Player's Guide has enough spaces for those to be included, so I would wonder why it would somehow be discounted. In fact, I think it points to every hex that is more than 75% on the map as being part of the map. If the concern is that this does not quite make sense, given the placement of the South Rostland Road, keep in mind that the entirely of the Stolen Lands was considered to be part of Rostland, so having part of a highway fall in what is supposed to be an allied kingdom is probably no biggie...




I think in one of the books (or maybe it was from the Paizo forums) that there is mention of claiming land north of the road is apt to considered an act of aggression against the northern neighbors.


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## Crothian (Mar 20, 2012)

IronWolf said:


> I think in one of the books (or maybe it was from the Paizo forums) that there is mention of claiming land north of the road is apt to considered an act of aggression against the northern neighbors.




It says that in the second book that introduces the kingdom building.  The Varnhold book then also says that some of those top hexes can't be claimed for same reason.


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## Kaisoku (Mar 20, 2012)

We've nearly finished the entire AP (only have the final adventure left), but I'll try and limit my responses to the first kingdom building adventure to prevent too many spoilers.

A bit of background on my character (who became leader) and the group. It helps give some context for our decisions:

My character was an Oracle of Life, who happened to follow Cayden Cailean as well (didn't have to, didn't know if that's where his powers came from, but liked his ethos).
A bit of a drinker, and a self-proclaimed life of the party, I was the most charismatic, and thus defacto leader choice... though, I accepted being mostly figurehead, and led through advisors.

Our group basically met and became a group because we were the "stragglers" who hadn't come with anyone at the ceremony that gave us our charter.


1. Where your group built your first city and why;

Well, like most here, we built on the Staglord's fort area. There were many reasons:
- Half price castle.
- We could have water access, granting access to certain buildings more readily.
- Defensive features of the region (hill, water, back to a lake, etc)
- River access for trade and travel, etc.
- Did I mention half price castle?

2. The name of your first city and why;

*Longshot*

We were a primarily Chaotic Good group, and kind of ran with an "easygoing" style of leadership. We didn't want to upset the existing peoples, so made our nation primarily Erastil focused, with a Cayden slant. Very farming, community oriented, and letting people do mostly what they wanted.
We were trying to get as many people to come to our side in this endeavor, to the point of letting pretty much anyone join us.

The name plays on Erastil the archer (old Deadeye making a long arrow shot), but it also played on our "_we don't really know what we are doing_" feelings, and the name kind of reflected the odds we were giving ourselves to being successful.

3. The name of your kingdom and why you chose it;

Well, I had the outcast Noble background trait. A cousin to the Orlovsky family (specifically, my last name was Wazowsky). While the Orlovsky family is known for avoiding conflict (such as through diplomacy), my disgraced family background relied more on the "run away" side of conflict avoidance.
Disgusted with my own family (the reason I ran off to make my own name), I decided to literally create my own name, Sokolovsky (the "hawk" to Orlovsky's "eagle").

As such, I named the nation the kingdom of* Sokol*.
Our standard was a picture of a Hawk , wings and legs spread, with a couple arrows in one claw (Erastil) and a tankard in the other (Cayden), to represent our leanings

4. What you developed/built first;
 
We literally built our castle first.
After that, we built things that seemed appropriate for the type of people in our city (mill, smithy, exotic craftsman, etc) focusing mostly on economy and stability.
Tried to keep taxes low, etc.
We expanded fairly quickly as well. We built a town at Oleg's outpost (calling it Leventon, after his last name), in which he was mayor when he wasn't acting Treasurer while we were off galavanting and adventuring.

The group that wanted to set up camp and asked for build points worth of supplies around the tatselworm region was developed and annexed into a full blown town as well.
We made that one our trade city (they called it Tatselford), it had all the markets (and our first black market).

We also eventually built a more religious centre, moving that statue of Erastil to the holy grounds (that pool that you cleanse), and set up Johd as religious leader there. This was a bit later in the game though.

5. Whatever else you deem relevant, such as the locations of any subsequent cities or important structures.
 
Remember how I said we'd take in anyone? Well... I mean ANYONE.

Prior to kingdom building, we encountered some Mites and Kobolds. We didn't like the mites all that much (they attacked us first and we didn't like em), so when we encountered the Kobolds and parlayed with them, we offered to help rescue their captured and pretty much killed/ran out the rest of the mites, helping the Kobolds "win".

We also deposed the nasty shaman leader of the Kobolds (when he tried to turn on us), and basically handed the kobold tribe back to the cheiftan.

From then on, we had Kobold allies.
We let them have the mine, but since they were part of our nation, we got the economy from it. Actually, they were really accepted citizens of the nation. Despite more nasty leanings, they accepted our Good nation's rules because we gave them a measure of respect they didn't normally get from other races.
In fact, Chief Sootscales became our spymaster, and the kobold we saved: Micmac, kind of had a rotating position in office (as we moved around and had openings). We joked that he had a new hat for each position we were putting him in...

As our first act as a new nation (while the body of the Staglord still cooled, in fact), we gave amnesty to any remaining bandits: join us, help build the community, and past banditry would be forgiven. We did this because Akiros turned on the Staglord and basically helped us survive the Owlbear situation.

We ran into some lizardmen at one point that, under the cajoling of their "god figure", attacked us. We destroyed the attacking force.
We later found out that the attacking force had been all their strong males, and the remaining lizardmen women and young wandered the swamp during winter while being harassed by wisps.
They eventually sought aid from us as well (despite our leaders being the adventuring party that destroyed their tribe). We said "why not" and took them in.

I believe we also took in a small group of exiled frogmen as well (simply because they were friendly, and we were taking in everyone we could).
There were some fae we encountered as well, but we mostly paid them off in booze and good times, and just asked that they not harangue our nation with pranks and we'd make sure to let them do whatever they wanted otherwise.

We had quite the ragtag nation, filled with a lot of generally considered "bad" or nasty people, but it all seemed to work out okay.

.
Funny story time...

A little later in the game (around the Varnhold times), our adventuring turned out to last a little too long, and our group wouldn't make it back in time to do kingdom building for the month. It was our first long range travel adventure, and we didn't time it right.

Since we were at the right level, I had picked Leadership. Since we had the opening, I talked with the DM and we made the cohort my wife.
Not that I got married... but rather, I had in fact always been married, and I had wandered off to do my own thing while my elven bard celebrity wife (I was human) was doing her thing back in Brevoy.

As a funny retcon, the DM said I had written a short, unsigned letter (I wasn't a very proper leader) letting my wife know I had started a nation in the south, and asked her to please come take care of it while I was busy.

We came back to a nation that was surprisingly happier than before (our general had been assassinated, and I failed a bunch of leadership checks making our unrest skyrocket, right before we ran off).
This is when we found my admonishing wife running the nation in our stead, having found my "backup plan" (written on a bar napkin) to replace leadership roles with prominent members of the community, gaining us our kingdom phase.
This is when I also turned to the rest of the group and went "_Oh yeah, this is my wife. I'm married, by the way_".


Basically, my Leadership feat didn't get me a combat benefit, but a Queen for the nation, Kingdom building phase even if we weren't around, and a spellcaster (Bard) who could craft magic items while we were away.
Not too shabby.

The whole situation pretty much floored one of the other players (my RL brother), who had a hard time accepting the whole thing (in character). He kept asking my wife character what the heck she saw in me, to the point where she was getting offended, heh.
It didn't help that she knew Modify Memory (among many other very leadership oriented utility spells). The group had suspicions, but drunken notes and "forgetting" to mention a celebrity wife actually fit my character that they really didn't question it for long.

Good times...


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## Kaodi (Mar 20, 2012)

Do later adventures have any rules for developing hexes that are primarily covered by water? Because I was thinking that it would probably make sense to be able to develop a water hex like a farm if it is adjacent to a city with a pier, or if it adjacent to a hex that is adjacent with a waterfront.


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## Crothian (Mar 20, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> Do later adventures have any rules for developing hexes that are primarily covered by water? Because I was thinking that it would probably make sense to be able to develop a water hex like a farm if it is adjacent to a city with a pier, or if it adjacent to a hex that is adjacent with a waterfront.




Nope, the books are rather limited in what they do and allow.  I say go for it, it's a good idea.


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## TarionzCousin (Mar 21, 2012)

I ran _Citadel of Pain_ for our group after the first module. As a result of the choices the group made, they freed about 150 monstrous humanoids: troglodytes, ogres, minotaurs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears. Most of those monsters came to live in our first city.


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## Satin Knights (Mar 21, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> Do later adventures have any rules for developing hexes that are primarily covered by water? Because I was thinking that it would probably make sense to be able to develop a water hex like a farm if it is adjacent to a city with a pier, or if it adjacent to a hex that is adjacent with a waterfront.



I *highly* recommend the supplemental book from Jon Brazer Enterprises "Book of the River Nations ~ Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building".  

It adds around 25% more building types, developments outside city squares, and an expanded section on the mass combat rules. A "Camp" for fishing is the way this book deals with harvesting a water hex.  The book also contains a section of feats and spells for mass combat.  Overall, it adds "25% more" to all the rules that the player would need for his/her kingdom building process.


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## TarionzCousin (Mar 21, 2012)

Satin Knights said:


> I *highly* recommend the supplemental book from Jon Brazer Enterprises "Book of the River Nations ~ Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building".



I bought this and our DM has been using it. It adds significantly more options to the city-building experience.


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## Derfmancher (Mar 22, 2012)

I think that sounds like an outstanding resource Satin Knights! 

As I said in another post (link below) I am getting ready to start running Kingmaker with a rather large group(8). I am pretty new at DMing in general, but I appear to be the one most excited out of all of us, and the best at it out of the group. (We have run a few one shots, and a mini-campaign I laid out.) 

I am quite excited to see where my players set up their city, and plan to post it here when they do.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/320003-would-you-quit-game-if.html#post5858395


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## Drowbane (Mar 23, 2012)

TarionzCousin said:


> After reading these posts, I'm feeling a bit put off. See, my DM didn't give us the option to build our first city on the Stag Lord's Keep. He drew up a huge map and that place was expressly off the edge of the paper.
> 
> I didn't even know that location was an option until I read your replies. It's the obvious starting location.




When we killed the Stag Lord I mentioned "hey, we should totally rennovate this place". And then when it came time to build, the Keep was not on the map.

Thats ok, Stag Lord's will be our next city, for our Southern Border.

Having our capital close to our Silver and Gold mines isn't a bad thing... and I'm sure the Stag Lord's keep is going to need to recleared out (yay, xp!).



TarionzCousin said:


> I ran _Citadel of Pain_ for our group after the first module. As a result of the choices the group made, they freed about 150 monstrous humanoids: troglodytes, ogres, minotaurs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears. Most of those monsters came to live in our first city.




Our Kingdom demographics are something like: 
45% Aes Sidhe (home brewed elves from an alternate Prime Material)
40% Citadel of Pain refugees (ogres, minotaurs, goblinoids, and troglodytes)
15% Standard races (need to break that down further), mostly Brevoyan refugees

??% Sootscale Kobolds: not officially part of the kingdom yet, need to work on that.

Ruler: my fey PC had the highest Cha and a background in nobility, so he was made Ruler.
* Prince Amaranth Sellador, Lord of the Summer court - Aes Sidhe Druidic Warlock type. (bonus ruler: Queen Arinthalas Tyriel, Queen of the Winter Court - Aes Sidhe Druidic Swordsage type. "Winter is coming...")

Grand Diplomat: 2nd highest Cha - Rilel (Tarionzcousin) - Aasimar Bard | Warlock type
Spy Master: when not performing his diplomatic duties, Rilel is our Spy Master. The populace of course has no inkling of this.
Warden: Roland - Human Gunslinger | Paladin
Marshal: Orge - 1/2 orc Fighter | Rogue


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## Nimloth (Mar 24, 2012)

1. Where your group built your first city and why;
We built our 1st city at Olegs.  We had a bad experience at the Staglords fort (almost ended the game) and we didn't want to build there until we had some time to ease the memories.  Since most of our initial settlers would be from the north, Olegs was a better location for them.  

2. The name of your first city and why;
We called it Olegstead, to encourage Oleg and Svetlana to join our government.

3. The name of your kingdom and why you chose it;
The Greenmarch, a combination of Greenbelt and Narlmarches.

4. What you developed/built first;
Our 1st few buildings were a stable, shop, inn and shrine(Erastil).  We concentrated on economy and religious buildings (for roleplaying reasons).

5. Whatever else you deem relevant, such as the locations of any subsequent cities or important structures.
We eventually founded a city at the Staglord's fort and made it our capital (due to it's central location).


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## Drowbane (Mar 24, 2012)

*Update:* Last night the party went out to explore Hexes we hadn't yet been to and we went to go check on the Stag Lord's Fort, thinking we would at least build there for our next town. Well as we near we see new construction and find out that the ex-PC of the DM's wife had begun building there right after she quit the game.

Yeah.

She quits the campaign, as she isn't all that into D&D (cause it has rules, and doesn't cater just to her) and then her ex-PC steals the Fort out from under us. 

I was... not happy. I might drop the game, not sure yet. What would you guys do?


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## TarionzCousin (Mar 24, 2012)

Drowbane said:


> *Update*



Drowbane and I are in the same game. This was a big and unpleasant surprise.

We think we can co-opt the Stag Lord's town--the wife is supposedly not playing this game any more--eventually. But if not it looks like we would go to war and burn it down if the reactions of the players are any indication of what the future holds.

Also, Drowbane can't quit; he's our king.


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## Kaisoku (Mar 26, 2012)

The party should be getting a stipend from Brevoy to found your kingdom there. By rights, and by charter, this land is yours.

I'd try diplomatically to annex the place, and kick them out by force if they were decidedly hostile.

However, to be frank, it sounds like the DM is playing the metagame on your group. The behavior smacks of favoritism and ego stroking. I'd probably watch to see if the DM was going somewhere with it and play along a bit, but if it's apparent that he's going to go this way, I'd bow out of the game and wait for another time to play Kingmaker.

The AP is a great one, and toying with the players like this would make me feel cheated of the experience.


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## Lwaxy (Mar 27, 2012)

Maybe he is just using a dropped PC as story tool. I do that all the time. Would also explain why you couldn't settle there.


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## Drowbane (Mar 30, 2012)

ahem...

we received our build monies from Brevoy, but that location was "off the map". I asked about it at the time and it just got glossed over.

This DM is a bit of a jerk at times, but maybe he thinks this is a "cool plot point" or something. All I know is it pissed some of us off.


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## Kaodi (Apr 8, 2012)

Crothian said:


> It says that in the second book that introduces the kingdom building.  The Varnhold book then also says that some of those top hexes can't be claimed for same reason.




I have been looking for where it says this, but so far with no luck. I mean, I can believe it makes a certain amount of sense, but I have to see it to believe it.


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## Kaodi (Apr 8, 2012)

Actually, looking over a big Q & A thread on Paizo, and I did come across this so far:



			
				James Jacobs said:
			
		

> The actual border between the Stolen Lands and Brevoy may look like a straight line on the big scale map, and on some maps in world I would assume that overly-ambitious cartographers might fudge borders... the fact is that there's very little of the maps in Kingmaker that are officially in Brevoy. Only the top row of hexes in the rightmost map area (the Nomen Heights, in Pathfinder #33) are officially part of Brevoy.





			
				James Jacobs said:
			
		

> An element of this actually does pop in on the map for the Nomen Heights; if the PCs try to claim any of the top row of hexes (which includes areas like Restov), they're basically declaring war on Brevoy. That takes the AP in an entirely different direction than what we're building it to do.


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## Crothian (Apr 8, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> I have been looking for where it says this, but so far with no luck. I mean, I can believe it makes a certain amount of sense, but I have to see it to believe it.




In the Varnhold book pg 11 under the Expanding your kingdom section.


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## Crothian (Apr 8, 2012)

Gencon 2010 we stared Kingmaker and this past week we finally fished it.  It was a lot of fun, and the last book is just brutal as the combats in there were so much more powerful then anything else we had faced and unlike most of the campaign those encounters happened a lot more then one or two a day.


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## RithTheAwakener (Apr 9, 2012)

1. Where your group built your first city and why;
First city was at the Stag Lord's keep, for the defensive location and the cheap castle.

2. The name of your first city and why;
We called the city Highwatch, as it is high on a mountain/hill overlooking most of the lakes and plains of the whole region.

3. The name of your kingdom and why you chose it;
The Kingdom of Highwatch. Silver, green and black for city colors. Neutral Good kingdom. Named due to it being our first city's name, was was appropriate for our groups feel as the defends of these new lands.

4. What you developed/built first;
Castle, for half price. Followed by the other buildings that make other buildings cost 1/2 the price.

5. Whatever else you deem relevant, such as the locations of any subsequent cities or important structures.
We really broke the construction system hard. Our city expanded in both size and economy so quickly that by 30 months into the campaign, we were pulling in ~250 BP a turn, had 6 cities, and built almost every relevant structure in each. Currently 31 months into the campaign (~6 months real-time) and we are nearly finished with the fifth module.


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## TarionzCousin (Apr 9, 2012)

Crothian said:


> Gencon 2010 we stared Kingmaker and this past week we finally fished it.  It was a lot of fun, and the last book is just brutal as the combats in there were so much more powerful then anything else we had faced and unlike most of the campaign those encounters happened a lot more then one or two a day.



Did any of the characters die?


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## Crothian (Apr 9, 2012)

TarionzCousin said:


> Did any of the characters die?




We had three deaths, but the ability to bring them back each time.


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## Rone Barton (Apr 19, 2012)

To those of you (TarionzCousin, Drowbane and anyone else) who freed the citizens of Rogthandor in the _Citadel of Pain_... too cool. That's the option I would have chosen as well. 

When Lou and I designed this adventure, we wanted to make cinematic endings available regardless of which path you chose. As I grew up reading, GMing, or playing adventures, I always fantasized about either freeing the imprisoned or the trapped and giving them safe haven, or filching something grand from an adventure and then weaving it into my campaign's narrative elsewhere. We were hoping some people might choose to take a chance and give these morally complex critters a good home. Good on ya!


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## Kaisoku (Apr 19, 2012)

Throughout the campaign, if someone we were fighting looked like they were going to escape our wrath, we.. uh.. kind of took on a bit of a juvenile attitude.
We sort of vandalized their stuff, damaging things they might care for to get them to either come back after us in anger, or to at least cripple their ability to recover.

Our summoner had the Mad Monkeys spell, used most combats, so the idea of crazed, maniacal monkeys flinging poop all over say, someone's bed room or throne room, would typically become part of our "strategy".
Also... we usually set things on fire after we left.

While we were very willing to take on people who were questionable, and try and work them towards a more Good agenda.. but if someone ticked us off, we got kind of mean.


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## Rone Barton (Apr 20, 2012)

Poop fling in the throne room... now _that_ sounds like a party!


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## TarionzCousin (Apr 20, 2012)

The Jade said:


> To those of you (TarionzCousin, Drowbane and anyone else) who freed the citizens of Rogthandor in the _Citadel of Pain_... too cool. That's the option I would have chosen as well.
> 
> When Lou and I designed this adventure, we wanted to make cinematic endings available regardless of which path you chose. As I grew up reading, GMing, or playing adventures, I always fantasized about either freeing the imprisoned or the trapped and giving them safe haven, or filching something grand from an adventure and then weaving it into my campaign's narrative elsewhere. We were hoping some people might choose to take a chance and give these morally complex critters a good home. Good on ya!



I ran it. The player who got to choose was the one strongest in favor of that option. The (Lawful Good???) paladin and Chaotic Neutral Druid were both strong advocates of leaving the monsters there. 

Now they all are happy with monster citizens. In fact, I think Drowbane may make a minotaur cohort soon.


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## Rone Barton (Apr 20, 2012)

TarionzCousin said:


> I ran it. The player who got to choose was the one strongest in favor of that option. The (Lawful Good???) paladin and Chaotic Neutral Druid were both strong advocates of leaving the monsters there.
> 
> Now they all are happy with monster citizens. In fact, I think Drowbane may make a minotaur cohort soon.




Glad to hear it all worked out in the end, TC.  And that's pretty neat... a minotaur cohort...

Thanks for taking the time to paint a picture of how it turned out. No two play reports from this adventure sound the same thus far and I find it interesting to hear where each game group went with it.


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## Rone Barton (Apr 20, 2012)

BTW, many thanks for the comment, Drowbane.  I'm not used to ENworld posting techniques and at first I missed it there, shrunken at the bottom of my post.

How does one leave a comment like that? Quick reply?


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## TarionzCousin (Apr 20, 2012)

The Jade said:


> BTW, many thanks for the comment, Drowbane.  I'm not used to ENworld posting techniques and at first I missed it there, shrunken at the bottom of my post.
> 
> How does one leave a comment like that? Quick reply?



That's an XP comment. You click on the green "thumbs up" symbol to the left of someone's post. It awards them experience points and allows you to enter a comment as well.


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## neofax (Apr 25, 2012)

1. Where your group built your first city and why;
Stag Lords Keep for the 1/2 Castle.  Only one player enjoys doing the kingdom building game so we have separate sessions.

2. The name of your first city and why;
Staghorn as they couldn't agree to a name and rolled the dice on their top 3.

3. The name of your kingdom and why you chose it;
Yet again Staghorn as they didn't really care all that much.

4. What you developed/built first;
I want to say it was a brothel, but it could have been the Inn as well.

5. Whatever else you deem relevant, such as the locations of any subsequent cities or important structures.
We are ending Book 4 tomorrow and they have 6 cities, 14th level characters that have the wealth of 20th level characters as they can basically take whatever they want out of the treasury and don't worry on the rolls as they can only fail on 1's.  The kingdom builder is very good at optimizing what buildings he needs to autopass the rolls and generate mad loot.

Personally, as the DM I do not like this AP.  The assumptions it makes and the strap on rules were not completely thought through.  Why would a Baron go out and explore hexes?  It would be easier to take the Leadership feat and send out a cohort.  Heck, just pay a lacky from the treasury as you have 15 magic sweat shops throughout your kingdom.  You have the largest army in all of Avistan due to your printing press cranking out money and no worries in the world.  However, the concept is great and I plan to use it to make something akin to Red Hand of Doom, except set in Katapesh or Qadira (I am a Al'Qadim/Kongdom of Kalamar fan).


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 26, 2012)

cross posting: 







> In converting the original rules to 4e, I decided that each lesser item shop has a 1 in 6 chance of generating 1 BP per month. There is a 68% chance that minor items rolled were potions or scrolls, and at least 50% that armor and wondrous items generated were too cheap to sell.
> per Q&A on pathfinder boards, cheap items don't automatically sell for the listed building points.
> 
> Medium Magic items*~1 hour of number crunching*
> ...




to sell an item it becomes a dc 15 economy check, +5 for every 2 BP the item is worth. that matches the original 20/35 check.  Due to different assumptions of 4e, I'm ignoring the major items.  I don't know if this makes the PCs lose out on legitimate / necessary sources of building points.  Perhaps I will Add some kind of static bonus, or establish trade route action that generates BPs...


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